# Anelka's quenelle



## where to (Dec 29, 2013)

What a total scumbag.

Coverage here:
http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/nicolas-anelka-quenelle-dieudonnes-la-2970567


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## equationgirl (Dec 29, 2013)

You can't patent a hand-salute


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## Casually Red (Dec 29, 2013)

i was well sickened when he scored too, the celebration was just rubbing it in .


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## J Ed (Dec 29, 2013)

What a fucking idiot


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## Pickman's model (Dec 29, 2013)

fuh quenelle 

also thought he was a wrong un since his turbulent days at arsenal but never thought he was that way inclined


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## Casually Red (Dec 29, 2013)

Its just as well the west ham fans didnt know what it meant, thered have been a riot .


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## brogdale (Dec 29, 2013)

Have to admit I hadn't heard of it till now.

Mirror article seemed to make sense though.


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## imposs1904 (Dec 29, 2013)

Anelka the silly sod tweeted this picture of Obama, Jay Z, Beyonce and some other bloke supposedly doing the quenelle at an Obama fund raiser. Turns out _"Jay-Z, Beyonce, President Barack Obama and a supporter _[were]_ brushing the dirt off their shoulders _[in] _an ode to one of Jay-Z’s hit songs…"
_
Anelka needs to step back from twitter. He's not doing himself any favours.


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## Spanky Longhorn (Dec 29, 2013)

Super rich footballer in right winger schock


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## MellySingsDoom (Dec 29, 2013)

brogdale said:


> Have to admit I hadn't heard of it till now.
> 
> Mirror article seemed to make sense though.



Same here for me.  Anelka seems to be either a blundering idiot at best, or anti-Jewish at worst. 

Here's another footballer making the same gesture:







"Earlier in 2013 Montpellier full-back Mathieu Deplagne celebrated a goal against Sochaux by putting his hand to his opposite shoulder.
The gesture was not widely known at the time and Deplagne was not punished."

e2a:  Here's some futher info on la quenelle: http://www.esquire.com/blogs/news/quenelle-france-racist?src=spr_TWITTER&spr_id=1456_36858952


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## LiamO (Dec 29, 2013)




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## LiamO (Dec 29, 2013)

Can anyone point me to something that shows the point this 'comedian' is _actually_ trying to make rather than the myriad of pieces showing what various interest groups have _decided_ he is trying to make?


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## where to (Dec 29, 2013)

imposs1904 said:


> Anelka needs to step back from twitter. He's not doing himself any favours.



i heard something before the game about him just playing out his career now, i think his coach was denying this, not sure.  if there's anything to this, i wonder whether he's consciously trying to bring forward his retirement (via a ban) or just letting rip with his views if he thinks he's on the final straight.


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## DexterTCN (Dec 29, 2013)

LiamO said:


> Can anyone point me to something that shows the point this 'comedian' is _actually_ trying to make rather than the myriad of pieces showing what various interest groups have _decided_ he is trying to make?


I have to agree.

This seems a load of shit...wtf is a reverse nazi salute?   Sounds like John Travolta in Saturday Night Fever more than what Anelka did.  You can't just decide to make up a new nazi salute...only nazis can do that...and sure as fuck Anelka isn't one of them.


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## Fez909 (Dec 29, 2013)

LiamO said:


> Can anyone point me to something that shows the point this 'comedian' is _actually_ trying to make rather than the myriad of pieces showing what various interest groups have _decided_ he is trying to make?





DexterTCN said:


> I have to agree.
> 
> This seems a load of shit...wtf is a reverse nazi salute?   Sounds like John Travolta in Saturday Night Fever more than what Anelka did.  You can't just decide to make up a new nazi salute...only nazis can do that...and sure as fuck Anelka isn't one of them.


Oh dear. 

This article gives a bit more information on the connotations of the gesture, along with some background on Dieudonné. After reading that, do you still want to hear his excuses?


> During his one-man show, he attacked Patrick Cohen, a Jewish radio journalist who has publicly criticised him. Dieudonné said: “When the wind turns, I don’t think he’ll have time to pack a suitcase. When I hear Patrick Cohen talking, you see, I think of gas ovens.”


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## Lemon Eddy (Dec 29, 2013)

LiamO said:


> Can anyone point me to something that shows the point this 'comedian' is _actually_ trying to make rather than the myriad of pieces showing what various interest groups have _decided_ he is trying to make?



Here's his poster.  You work it out:


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## caleb (Dec 29, 2013)

Fucking hell, is this wilful ignorance? Anelka said it was in tribute this this guy, the guy who invented it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dieudonné_M'bala_M'bala

A man with links across the French far-right whose antisemitism is clear - not just clear, absolutely unashamed. 

Do a quick search for the quenelle being performed and you can find perhaps hundreds of examples of people doing it outside concentration camps, memorials, etc. 

This stuff isn't ambiguous, these guys revel in it.


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## DexterTCN (Dec 29, 2013)

Fez909 said:


> Oh dear.
> 
> This article gives a bit more information on the connotations of the gesture, along with some background on Dieudonné. After reading that, do you still want to hear his excuses?


As a reasonable human being I require a little more to convince me that Anelka...a black Muslim...is a nazi.


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## The Boy (Dec 29, 2013)

DexterTCN said:


> As a reasonable human being I require a little more to convince me that Anelka...a black Muslim...is a nazi.



The allegation isn't that Anelka is a nazi, it's that he's anti-semitic.  Being a black muslim is hardly a defence against the charge.


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## FridgeMagnet (Dec 29, 2013)

Maybe it was just accidental. The weather blew his hands in that position. Maybe he thought it was actually anti-discrimination for no reason whatsoever because it would be rubbish.

For fuck's sake.


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## comrade spurski (Dec 29, 2013)

DexterTCN said:


> As a reasonable human being I require a little more to convince me that Anelka...a black Muslim...is a nazi.


you don't need to be a nazi to be anti jewish though


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## J Ed (Dec 29, 2013)

DexterTCN said:


> As a reasonable human being I require a little more to convince me that Anelka...a black Muslim...is a nazi.



As a reasonable human being then obviously you understand that you don't need to be a blood and soil neo-Nazi to hate Jews and that some neo-Nazis and anti-Semitic Muslims have had some time for each other.


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## Fez909 (Dec 29, 2013)

DexterTCN said:


> As a reasonable human being


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## caleb (Dec 30, 2013)

DexterTCN said:


> As a reasonable human being I require a little more to convince me that Anelka...a black Muslim...is a nazi.



You were the first one the use the term 'Nazi' in this thread mate, nobody else has been calling him that. Now tell us, how do you think the charge of being an antisemite holds up?


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## Favelado (Dec 30, 2013)

I hope you had an awful Christmas Dexter.


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## goldenecitrone (Dec 30, 2013)

He's mates with the French equivalent of Bernard Manning. Stormtrooper in a teacup. Great goals.


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## where to (Dec 30, 2013)

DexterTCN said:


> I have to agree.



you can't agee with a question.


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## malatesta32 (Dec 30, 2013)

overpaid eejit does eejit thing shock. the guy who supports him, the half cameroonian comedian is also connected as a godparent to le pen. confused?


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## DexterTCN (Dec 30, 2013)

caleb said:


> You were the first one the use the term 'Nazi' in this thread mate, nobody else has been calling him that....


No, the term is used in the link in the OP, mate.


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## caleb (Dec 30, 2013)

DexterTCN said:


> No, the term is used in the link in the OP, mate.



It's not, or at least not anymore. And if it was, it says a lot about where you are coming from that it's the first thing you decided to pick up on and quibble with "WELL HOW CAN A BLACK MUSLIM BE AN _NAZI_ GUYS!?!!>!". Didn't you think to have a read of the article first to find out, instead of coming on here asking fucking dumb questions?

Now come on, how do you think the charge of antisemite holds up?


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## DexterTCN (Dec 30, 2013)

caleb said:


> It's not, or at least not anymore. And if it was, it says a lot about where you are coming from that it's the first thing you decided to pick up on and quibble with "WELL HOW CAN A BLACK MUSLIM BE AN _NAZI_ GUYS!?!!>!". Didn't you think to have a read of the article first to find out, instead of coming on here asking fucking dumb questions?
> 
> Now come on, how do you think the charge of antisemite holds up?


Garbage.

Firstly, I don't give a toss what you think.  And I care less.

Secondly, the article does make that connection.  As do a few others, which I took the time to read last night.   So I didn't just read it, I thought about it as well.  My conclusion?  Inconclusive.

Thirdly...for me, I need more than tabloid outrage as convincing evidence of ...._anything_. 

Carry on.  I'm off to work.


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## caleb (Dec 30, 2013)

DexterTCN said:


> Garbage.
> 
> Firstly, I don't give a toss what you think.  And I care less.
> 
> ...



You're conclusion could only be inconclusive if you're a think antisemite, which appears to be the case.

Go on, tell us what you really think pal.


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## Spanky Longhorn (Dec 30, 2013)

That's right Anelka might not be an anti-semite and might not be aware his good buddy who has made anti-semitic jokes and stood for election on anti-semitic far right tickets is an anti-semite. 

DexterTCN this is unfortunately the logic of your disgusting brand of anti-Zionism and Gallowayism.


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## Fedayn (Dec 30, 2013)

DexterTCN said:


> Garbage.
> 
> Firstly, I don't give a toss what you think.  And I care less.
> 
> ...



Right, just answer the question re the anti-semitism, or is that too difficult for such a reasonable human being?


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## caleb (Dec 30, 2013)

It seems to me the logic of the perfectly fair trope that anti-Zionism is not inherently antisemitic gets turned into '... Anti-Zionism is never antisemitic'. This in turn leads people who think like that to construct a conspiracy around the use of the term... As a Jewish plot to smear their politics.


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## MellySingsDoom (Dec 30, 2013)

The Daily Heil have chipped in now (apologies, couldn't find a DH proxy site) - http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...wice-bad-Luis-Suarez-John-Terry-episodes.html

(The writer seems to drag in Celtic and Rangers, which seems irrelevant to the matter at hand here)


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## treelover (Dec 30, 2013)

caleb said:


> You're conclusion could only be inconclusive if you're a think antisemite, which appears to be the case.
> 
> Go on, tell us what you really think pal.




out of order, that is a strong accusation.


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## caleb (Dec 30, 2013)

treelover said:


> out of order, that is a strong accusation.



It's a strong accusation, which is why I said 'appears'; it's perfectly possible dexter is simply ignorant, rather than wilfully so.

But if you're going to try to police the thread mate, try and pick up on the posts that are, you know, actually kind of dodgy, rather than people trying to challenge them.


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## ViolentPanda (Dec 30, 2013)

I see that Dexter has shat all over his own shoes again.  _Plus ça_ fucking _change_....


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## happie chappie (Dec 30, 2013)

DexterTCN said:


> . . . the article does make that connection.  As do a few others, which I took the time to read last night.   So I didn't just read it, I thought about it as well.  My conclusion?  Inconclusive.



What part of Anelka's Quenelle salute is "inconclusive"?


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## butchersapron (Dec 30, 2013)

Lemon Eddy said:


> Here's his poster.  You work it out:



The people alongside the anti-semite here are Alain Soral, a former adviser to  Le Pen and former FN high up and is well known as an anti-semite in europe:



> it's not always the fault of other people if no-one can stand you wherever you go… because that's basically their general history, you see… for 2,500 years, every time they settled somewhere, after about fifty years or so, they get kicked. You'd think that's strange! It's as though everyone is wrong except them.



The other one is Yahia Gouasmi, founder of the Zahra centre, well known for its role in role in bringing together anti-semites in anti-Israel manifestations (look up Kemi Seba and Stellio Capo Chichi) as well as being funded by the holocaust-denial wing of the Iran theocracy.

I suppose the jewish bloke with claws instead of hands is an example of the _grasping_ _*type *behind _all the speculation, communitarian, feminism etc this group of clowns are attacking.

Dexter, you are - once again, and totally _conclusively _-  an idiot. The sort of useful idiot these people rely on.


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## butchersapron (Dec 30, 2013)

goldenecitrone said:


> He's mates with the French equivalent of Bernard Manning. Stormtrooper in a teacup. Great goals.


You're an idiot too - why don't you take a look at the organisations these people have been involved with, have established and the very definite sort of public (and importantly, street) political rapprochement between the left, the far-right and the nuttier end of Islam that these people have spent their lifes propagating - then point out the similarities with Manning.


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## happie chappie (Dec 30, 2013)

Casually Red said:


> Its just as well the west ham fans didnt know what it meant, thered have been a riot .



If you mean a riot in the form of anti-Semitic love-in you could well be right.


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## cantsin (Dec 30, 2013)

Casually Red said:


> Its just as well the west ham fans didnt know what it meant, thered have been a riot .



there's deffo a few down there a bit partial to funny salutes nowadays, firming up with Lazio, worshipping di Canio etc


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## happie chappie (Dec 30, 2013)

cantsin said:


> there's deffo a few down there a bit partial to funny salutes nowadays, firming up with Lazio, worshipping di Canio etc



From the people who gave us the "I'd rather be a Paki than a Yid" ditty.


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## frogwoman (Dec 30, 2013)

I clicked on this thread thinking it be some celeb I'd never heard of, glad I'd ignored it up to now. Depressing as fuck


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## caleb (Dec 30, 2013)

Was looking at some cunt who is an Nus delegate for my SU on twitter and he defended Anelka on the grounds it was a political, anti-Zionist act.


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## goldenecitrone (Dec 30, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> You're an idiot too - why don't you take a look at the organisations these people have been involved with, have established and the very definite sort of public (and importantly, street) political rapprochement between the left, the far-right and the nuttier end of Islam that these people have spent their lifes propagating - then point out the similarities with Manning.



Bernard Manning was a racist. That's the similarity, dimwit. Anelka should choose his friends more carefully.


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## frogwoman (Dec 30, 2013)

caleb said:


> Was looking at some cunt who is an Nus delegate for my SU on twitter and he defended Anelka on the grounds it was a political, anti-Zionist act.



Fuck him.


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## butchersapron (Dec 30, 2013)

goldenecitrone said:


> Bernard Manning was a racist. That's the similarity, dimwit. Anelka should choose his friends more carefully.


Who didn't do any of the things this clown has, who didn't involve himself in trying to establish a far-right political network amongst young working class kids, whose political activity hasn't led to organised racist attacks, who hasn't helped normalise public anti-semitism precisely through this gesture - that's the dissimilarity that makes your cringe-worthy pun idiotic.


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## frogwoman (Dec 30, 2013)

caleb said:


> Was looking at some cunt who is an Nus delegate for my SU on twitter and he defended Anelka on the grounds it was a political, anti-Zionist act.



Political 'anti Zionism' lol, is it wrong that I increasingly view someone describing themselves as that (as opposed to marxist, anarchist etc all of whom have anti Zionist views) with a slight degree of suspicion


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## goldenecitrone (Dec 30, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Who didn't do any of the things this clown has, who didn't involve himself in trying to establish a far-right political network amongst young working class kids, whose political activity hasn't led to organised racist attacks, who hasn't helped normalise public anti-semitism precisely through this gesture - that's the dissimilarity that makes your cringe-worthy pun idiotic.



No, it isn't.


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## frogwoman (Dec 30, 2013)

He's not the equivalent of Manning tho is he


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## Wilf (Dec 30, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Dexter, you are - once again, and totally _conclusively _-  an idiot. The sort of useful idiot these people rely on.


Indeed.  I've never quite pinned down Dexter's approach - opportunist gallowayism, tedious contrarianism, banal trolling - but fucking idiot covers it pretty well.

Oh, and Liam, you could probably answer your own questions with a moment's research rather than throwing back sly digs about 'interest groups'


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## Corax (Dec 30, 2013)

imposs1904 said:


> Anelka the silly sod tweeted this picture of Obama, Jay Z, Beyonce and some other bloke supposedly doing the quenelle at an Obama fund raiser. Turns out _"Jay-Z, Beyonce, President Barack Obama and a supporter _[were]_ brushing the dirt off their shoulders _[in] _an ode to one of Jay-Z’s hit songs…"
> _
> Anelka needs to step back from twitter. He's not doing himself any favours.


What a twat.


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## happie chappie (Dec 30, 2013)

Wilf said:


> Indeed.  I've never quite pinned down Dexter's approach - opportunist gallowayism, tedious contrarianism, banal trolling - but fucking idiot covers it pretty well.


 
To be fair to Galloway (and, believe me, it's not always easy) he has always condemned anti-Semitism and never used his anti-Zionist views as a convenient cover for anti Jewish sentiment.


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## Spanky Longhorn (Dec 30, 2013)

treelover said:


> out of order, that is a strong accusation.



leave this thread to the adults please you div


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## Wilf (Dec 30, 2013)

happie chappie said:


> To be fair to Galloway (and, believe me, it's not always easy) he has always condemned anti-Semitism and never used his anti-Zionist views as a convenient cover for anti Jewish sentiment.


Fair enough, I was just trying to pin down Dexter's games (rather than suggesting Galloway was actually an anti semite.  Galloway's own strategies on Israel are perhaps for another thread).


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## Corax (Dec 30, 2013)

DexterTCN said:


> Garbage.
> 
> Firstly, I don't give a toss what you think.  And I care less.
> 
> ...


Dude, _seriously?_

Your initial response was understandable given the media's delight in whipping up shit for no reason.  But if you're standing by it after reading up on the "comedian" and the context, I can only think that you're just digging your heels in now.


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## goldenecitrone (Dec 30, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> He's not the equivalent of Manning tho is he



He's not as fat. Or as dead.


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## MellySingsDoom (Dec 30, 2013)

goldenecitrone said:


> No, it isn't.



Have you read up on Dieudonne at all?  Follow up on the links and comments here about him, and you'll find that Dieudonne is an entirely more worrying and involved figure with long-seated anti-Semitic connections and views - he's been been involved with dubious politics for a long time.  Check out his connections with Robert Faurrison, for example, and his own Holocaust denial statements.  Your Manning comparison is completely off-balance in light of the overwhelming information about this person.


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## frogwoman (Dec 30, 2013)

Manning wasn't involved in the organized far right, tho was he?


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## MellySingsDoom (Dec 30, 2013)

Indeed he never had been, which makes goldencitrone's comparison even more inaccurate.


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## Frances Lengel (Dec 30, 2013)

goldenecitrone said:


> Bernard Manning was a racist. That's the similarity, dimwit. Anelka should choose his friends more carefully.



Fuck off slagging Bernard off - He was an ok guy.


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## goldenecitrone (Dec 30, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> Fuck off slagging Bernard off - He was an ok guy.



Apart from all his nigger and Paki jokes.


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## butchersapron (Dec 30, 2013)

Here's an example of what this attempted re-alignment of the left, the far right and islam is leading to in France right now - read about batskin and his group in that thread. Guess who batskin and his group of far-right killers have a long political association with:  Alain Soral. The bloke on the right of the picture of this clown above. They even run a pub together.


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## frogwoman (Dec 30, 2013)

Not this shit again


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## imposs1904 (Dec 30, 2013)

goldenecitrone said:


> He's mates with the French equivalent of Bernard Manning. Stormtrooper in a teacup. Great goals.



did we watch the same highlights? they were shit goals.


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## Frances Lengel (Dec 30, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> Not this shit again





Bernard Manning - Time for a re-appraisal.

Nah, only messin. I do think he was an ok guy though. And when he went to visit his mam's on Clough Road, he'd swing a tenner to the local lads in the area if they washed his car. But this isn't really the thread though. Soz.


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## goldenecitrone (Dec 30, 2013)

imposs1904 said:


> did we watch the same highlights? they were shit goals.



I know.


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## torquemad (Dec 30, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> Not this shit again



That's twice you have posted that in this thread. Why not explain why/ what irritates you?


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## frogwoman (Dec 30, 2013)

Frances's post about manning and the threads there have been on that topic before. And I get a bit depressed about the fact that anti semitism seems to be increasing judging by what I and some of my mates have experienced in the last year or so. Its a bit grim really along with all the other shit, Tories, weather, insecure temp working etc. Oh well, maybe things will get better


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## Corax (Dec 30, 2013)

torquemad said:


> That's twice you have posted that in this thread. Why not explain why/ what irritates you?


Have a search of froggie's posts and I think you'll find it self-evident tbh.


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## frogwoman (Dec 30, 2013)

Perhaps a rerun of manning gate could be left until December 2014 Frances lol


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## Frances Lengel (Dec 30, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> Perhaps a rerun of manning gate could be left until December 2014 Frances



I _will_ hold you to that though 


Nah, I won't really. 

And sorry for going on about him - The last thing I wanted was to get on your nerves.


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## frogwoman (Dec 30, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> I _will_ hold you to that though
> 
> 
> Nah, I won't really.
> ...



No worries mate


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## Pickman's model (Dec 30, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> Not this shit again


it's groundhog day at urban. again.


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## butchersapron (Dec 30, 2013)

For those who read french or are prepared to plough through a google translate version, here's some more info on the far-right links of Anelka's comrade, and who the latter considers his comrades.


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## butchersapron (Dec 30, 2013)

And more. This is them openly talking being adherents of the third position and defends the killing of Clément Méric -  they even wrote a book doing so.

Conclusive enough Dexter? Got a clearer picture now Liam?


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## Wilf (Dec 30, 2013)

Inside every fat racist there's a Manchester comic trying to get out.


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## Corax (Dec 30, 2013)

it's groundhog day at urban. again.


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## butchersapron (Dec 30, 2013)

Here's Alain Soral doing this at the Shoa memorial in Berlin:


 

This one is the railway into Auschwitz

 

Here's le Pen doing it:

 

Here's some general ones:


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## butchersapron (Dec 30, 2013)

Anti-establishment? Anyone who think that, look here and tell me what this gesture actually means.


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## MellySingsDoom (Dec 30, 2013)

I saw those last night, Butchers - I wasn't too sure about posting them up here, as I didn't want to give these specimens any "publicity".  Still, I think it gives visual proof about what the quenelle really represents beyond any doubt whatsoever.


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## butchersapron (Dec 30, 2013)

Cracker this one:


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## Fedayn (Dec 30, 2013)

Nah, still not enough to convince an idiot.....


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## J Ed (Dec 30, 2013)

happie chappie said:


> To be fair to Galloway (and, believe me, it's not always easy) he has always condemned anti-Semitism and never used his anti-Zionist views as a convenient cover for anti Jewish sentiment.



Yeah but that just makes his acting as cover for anti Semites like his mates Atzmon and Ahmedinejad more effective. Don't believe in guilt by association but there comes a point when if you actually surround yourself with people like that and shill for them, that it becomes appropriate.


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## butchersapron (Dec 30, 2013)

You'll note that Soral in his little but of fun at the holocaust memorial appears to have a Thor Steinar jacket on as well.


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## Part 2 (Dec 30, 2013)

Nasri's at it too

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co...icture-emerges-manchester-citys-samir-6455082


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## butchersapron (Dec 30, 2013)

Two up at newcastle who are supposed to be mates of the anti-semitic clown rather than just drongos who aren't doing it outside jewish named themed places. Like i think Nasri may be.


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## Wilf (Dec 30, 2013)

Chip Barm said:


> Nasri's at it too
> 
> http://www.manchestereveningnews.co...icture-emerges-manchester-citys-samir-6455082





> M.E.N. Sport understands Nasri was unaware of any anti-Semitic connotations behind the sign and is thought to be considering clarifying his actions on Twitter


'Thought to be considering going on twitter' - fucking hell, he's decisive.  Joey Barton would be there like a shot.


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## butchersapron (Dec 30, 2013)

Interesting use of _thought _in that bit. I've been publicly associated with an anti-semitic gesture. Let me ponder clarification.


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## butchersapron (Dec 30, 2013)

I think that there's a good chance Anelka actually is anti-semitic. How else do you end up with someone like this as your comrade? Are we not going to apply the di canio laws to him because is black? Because he is muslim? On what grounds won't we?


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## butchersapron (Dec 30, 2013)

Also, Anelka, what a wasted career.


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## Wilf (Dec 30, 2013)

Have a feeling this 'gesture' might get picked up by a few of the fans when spurs are the opposition. Wonder if plod/ the clubs/other fans will react?


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## Favelado (Dec 30, 2013)

There's not much wriggle room here. They all knew what they were doing and they can all get the book thrown at them.


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## T & P (Dec 30, 2013)

Wilf said:


> Have a feeling this 'gesture' might get picked up by a few of the fans when spurs are the opposition. Wonder if plod/ the clubs/other fans will react?


Though by the nature of the salute only those fans on the very front row would be spotted by opposition fans, as the arms of all those behind would be obscured. Could happen a bit more outside the ground, I guess...


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## Wilf (Dec 30, 2013)

Favelado said:


> There's not much wriggle room here. They all knew what they were doing and they can all get the book thrown at them.


Yep, though I have a feeling Anelka will get more due to it being on the pitch.


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## butchersapron (Dec 30, 2013)

Are west ham jewish owned?


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## Wilf (Dec 30, 2013)

Favelado said:


> There's not much wriggle room here. They all knew what they were doing and they can all get the book thrown at them.


 That really is the bottom line on this - in football and for those looking for wriggle room on urban.


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## butchersapron (Dec 30, 2013)

Wilf said:


> Have a feeling this 'gesture' might get picked up by a few of the fans when spurs are the opposition. Wonder if plod/ the clubs/other fans will react?


I can't see it. Ridiculous continental shit.


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## Pickman's model (Dec 30, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> I can't see it. Ridiculous continental shit.


yeh, you'd never get british people picking up on ridiculous continental shit



hang on a minute...


----------



## Wilf (Dec 30, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> I can't see it. Ridiculous continental shit.


Certainly can't see mass 'quenelling', but it adds a little twist for the tiny number who do such shit anyway.  Don't worry, I'm not going to be going on about footballers being 'role models'.


----------



## Wilf (Dec 30, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


>



Simon Hughes?


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 30, 2013)

Wilf said:


> Simon Hughes?


nearly. john tyndall.


----------



## Favelado (Dec 30, 2013)

Wilf said:


> Simon Hughes?



That by-election wasn't far off at times.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 30, 2013)

Favelado said:


> That by-election wasn't far off at times.


yeh it wasn't far off in january 1983. but it's a great distance away now.


----------



## revol68 (Dec 30, 2013)

Always hilarious seeing lefties get confused when confronted with a far right that talks up its anti establishment and supports "oppressed nations" like the Palestinians. Maybe its because much of the left has essentially bought into crude anti imperialism and apologism for oppressed nationalisms.


----------



## Wilf (Dec 30, 2013)

I'm sure it was something innocent, maybe an expression of support for Julian Assange.


----------



## tommers (Dec 30, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Are west ham jewish owned?



David gold is, certainly.


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 30, 2013)

What revol said. This shit is so fucking depressing. And of course someone can still be anti semitic if they're Muslim, someone can be islamophobic if they're Jewish so why is the reverse hard to believe.


----------



## Buckaroo (Dec 30, 2013)

revol68 said:


> Always hilarious seeing lefties get confused when confronted with a far right that talks up its anti establishment and supports "oppressed nations" like the Palestinians. Maybe its because much of the left has essentially bought into crude anti imperialism and apologism for oppressed nationalisms.



So this quenelle gesture is an anti-establishment thing or an anti-Semitic thing or what?


----------



## revol68 (Dec 30, 2013)

It's what you get when you give up on universalism in favour of relativist apologetics for a series of  oppressed groups with their own distinct struggle.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Dec 30, 2013)

Buckaroo said:


> So this quenelle gesture is an anti-establishment thing or an anti-Semitic thing or what?



The Joooz _are _the establishment, stupid. [/dwyer]


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 30, 2013)

I have experienced anti semitic comments in the past from Muslim people, unfortunately nobody is immune from that kind of stupidity. I've also heard anti Muslim and homophobic shit from Jews, being from a group that gets persecuted doesn't mean you can't be a cunt. The alignment with the far right and the left that seems to be going on is quite scary.


----------



## Buckaroo (Dec 30, 2013)

revol68 said:


> It's what you get when you give up on universalism in favour of relativist apologetics for a series of  oppressed groups with their own distinct struggle.



But who are you talking about, confused lefties here?


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 30, 2013)

Buckaroo said:


> But who are you talking about, confused lefties here?


Dexter and Liam i think, the person in the example froggy gave and any other. Liam left himself some wriggle room. Not enough.


----------



## elbows (Dec 30, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Are west ham jewish owned?



26th November 2012:



> West Ham's Jewish co-chairman David Gold says the club will have a "zero tolerance" approach to any supporters found to have made anti-Semitic taunts.
> 
> Two Hammers fans have accepted a police caution, and one of them has been given a lifetime ban from matches for gestures made at Tottenham on Sunday.
> 
> ...



http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/20505152


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 30, 2013)

elbows said:


> 26th November 2012:
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/20505152


Ta, so a massive one of these things.


----------



## goldenecitrone (Dec 30, 2013)

He's promised not to do it again. 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/25550382


----------



## ddraig (Dec 30, 2013)

'agreed'  wanker


----------



## imposs1904 (Dec 30, 2013)

goldenecitrone said:


> He's promised not to do it again.
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/25550382



like he's going to score again.


----------



## goldenecitrone (Dec 30, 2013)

imposs1904 said:


> like he's going to score again.



Good point.


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 30, 2013)

25 grand a week off the kuffars. He's happy if he never plays again.


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 30, 2013)

cynicaleconomy said:


> The Joooz _are _the establishment, stupid. [/dwyer]



Great so at least four managers I know of/mates know of personally plus this overpaid twat plus other billionaire celebs are fighting against the establishment . I know you don't think this mate but does my fuckin head in


----------



## revol68 (Dec 30, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> I have experienced anti semitic comments in the past from Muslim people, unfortunately nobody is immune from that kind of stupidity. I've also heard anti Muslim and homophobic shit from Jews, being from a group that gets persecuted doesn't mean you can't be a cunt. The alignment with the far right and the left that seems to be going on is quite scary.



Yeah the notion that "oppression" gives some sort of empathy or special insight in and of itself is pretty naive.


----------



## Kidda (Dec 30, 2013)

Wilf said:


> Have a feeling this 'gesture' might get picked up by a few of the fans when spurs are the opposition. Wonder if plod/ the clubs/other fans will react?



Us Baggies fans don't much like shit like that tbf 

'Thanks Lokomotiv' being a case in point (even if Odemwingie did turn out to be a bit of an arse)


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Dec 30, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> Great so at least four managers I know of/mates know of personally plus this overpaid twat plus other billionaire celebs are fighting against the establishment . I know you don't think this mate but does my fuckin head in



I'm not surprised it does your head in. The most infuriating thing, and it must be 10 times more infuriating for you, is reading comments on news stories by people defending Anelka on the grounds that 'oh but it's not a fascist solute'. The same with DiCanio and his wayward arm being a 'traditional Roman greeting' or some other such bullshit. If people are going to be anti-Semites they should fucking well say it. My response to that sort of disingenuous twattery is to go "well in that case, I'm not calling you a racist cunt who should fuck off and die. No really, I'm _not _doing that. Oh no sir".


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 30, 2013)

Ou est le roberts? Ou est KIO? And that lawyer bloke?


----------



## J Ed (Dec 30, 2013)

cynicaleconomy said:


> I'm not surprised it does your head in. The most infuriating thing, and it must be 10 times more infuriating for you, is reading comments on news stories by people defending Anelka on the grounds that 'oh but it's not a fascist solute'. The same with DiCanio and his wayward arm being a 'traditional Roman greeting' or some other such bullshit. If people are going to be anti-Semites they should fucking well say it. My response to that sort of disingenuousness is to go "well in that case, I'm not calling you a racist cunt who should fuck off and die. No really, I'm _not _doing that. Oh no sir".



Someone actually told me that the interim ruler of Egypt Al-Sisi is Jewish but insisted that saying that wasn't anti Semitic because he had no problem with Jews he was just upset that he wasn't being honest about being Jewish. Fucking idiocy.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Dec 30, 2013)

J Ed said:


> Someone actually told me that the interim ruler of Egypt Al-Sisi is Jewish but insisted that saying that wasn't anti Semitic because he had no problem with Jews he was just upset that he wasn't being honest about being Jewish. Fucking idiocy.



That's some seriously bonkers mental gymnastics right there.


----------



## Buckaroo (Dec 30, 2013)

revol68 said:


> Always hilarious seeing lefties get confused when confronted with a far right that talks up its anti establishment and supports "oppressed nations" like the Palestinians. Maybe its because much of the left has essentially bought into crude anti imperialism and apologism for oppressed nationalisms.



 "oppressed nations" like the Palestinians. Why the quotes?


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 30, 2013)

Buckaroo said:


> So this quenelle gesture is an anti-establishment thing or an anti-Semitic thing or what?


The latter. You've had pretty clear demonstrations of that all day. Are you challenging them?


----------



## LiamO (Dec 30, 2013)

Wilf said:


> Oh, and Liam, ... rather than throwing back sly digs about 'interest groups'



Wilf  Perhaps you could be a little more specific about what exactly you are implying? Thank you.


----------



## LiamO (Dec 30, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Dexter and Liam i think, the person in the example froggy gave and any other. Liam left himself some wriggle room. Not enough.



explain? butchersapron


----------



## revol68 (Dec 30, 2013)

Buckaroo said:


> "oppressed nations" like the Palestinians. Why the quotes?



Cos oppressed nations is a fascist concept.


----------



## Buckaroo (Dec 30, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> The latter. You've had pretty clear demonstrations of that all day. Are you challenging them?



I know it's the latter, what I'm challenging is revol68 equating the two. Anti-establishment with anti-Semitic. How funny it is that some lefties get in a spin when some righties use the struggle of "oppressed nations" as a means to an end.


----------



## Buckaroo (Dec 30, 2013)

revol68 said:


> Cos oppressed nations is a fascist concept.



You're a fascist concept.


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 30, 2013)

LiamO said:


> Can anyone point me to something that shows the point this 'comedian' is _actually_ trying to make rather than the myriad of pieces showing what various interest groups have _decided_ he is trying to make?



Can you expand on what point you think this comedian is _actually _trying to make as opposed to what interest groups have decided he is saying?


----------



## Nice one (Dec 30, 2013)

Buckaroo said:


> So this quenelle gesture is an anti-establishment thing or an anti-Semitic thing or what?



it's supposed to be both, that's the point. The kind of 'fuck you' gesture (as opposed to the sniggering coded anti-semitism of the people doing the quenelle in the photos linked to on this thread) works if your audience is the alienated and disenfranchised urban underclass that Dieudonné has been cultivating. Be interesting to hear more on this relationship:


> According to one journalist “Dieudonné is a folk hero in these neighborhoods_ [les banlieues]_, which are populated largely by black and Arab immigrants—places where anti-Semitism is fed by secondhand Palestinian politics, Islamism, and alienation from French society. How much Dieudonné has done to ride (or to create) this wave has been a popular topic in France”.


http://uniceone.wordpress.com/2013/12/29/anelka-gesture-politics-on-the-football-field/


----------



## LiamO (Dec 30, 2013)

I dunno. That's why I asked the question.

I was on my way to bed full of pints and a cursory google produced rent-a-quotes from talking heads. I figured someone would be along who knew some background.

I am _always_ suspicious of tabloids crying 'RACIST'... so should you be. For example the Roy Hodgson 'Monkey' debacle... and all the shit 'I'm offended' from people who make their living being offended (like Lord fuck-face from 'Kick it Out' and that clown from the Black Law Society (or whatever the fuck group he has invented so he can head it this week).

So I asked the question. That clear enough for you?

Lots of people have since posted lots of incriminating stuff (thank you btw), although I have still to see...

a) what the 'Comedian' himself has to say.

b) In what context did this all _start_? And how has it evolved? For example both young black people from the ghettoes _and_ the Front Nationale both going for it? WTF is _that_ all about?

c) Has aforesaid 'comedian' made any attempt to distance himself from some of those who have adopted his apparently Trademarked sign. Or is he happy with how things have progressed?


> It could be that Dieudonné, when he introduced his trademark (for a trademark it is, which brings him a substantial income through merchandising) in his 2004 one-man show, only meant it as a building-block in the manufacturing of his stage persona.
> 
> It could be that the tens of thousands of youngsters who’ve adopted the _quenelle_ see no harm whatsoever in mimicking their favourite comedian.
> 
> They may see it as a means to express their refusal to be a slave of the ‘system’, whatever ‘system’ may mean, more often than not a concatenation of ‘causes’ such as anti-globalisation, Green politics, anti-parliamentarism, ultra-nationalism and ‘anti-zionism’.




d) what has changed/how has the situation evolved since a white player made this sign after scoring in the French Cup Final (which I assume is a major event in France) and now that Anelka has done it in an EPL game (which I assume is not actually that big an event in France)?


----------



## LiamO (Dec 30, 2013)

Nice one said:


> it's supposed to be both, that's the point. The kind of 'fuck you' gesture (as opposed to the sniggering coded anti-semitism of the people doing the quenelle in the photos linked to on this thread) works if your audience is the alienated and disenfranchised urban underclass that Dieudonné has been cultivating. Be interesting to hear more on this relationship:
> 
> http://uniceone.wordpress.com/2013/12/29/anelka-gesture-politics-on-the-football-field/



Thanks Nice one . That's a bit more explanatory. And also explains why the french tabloids jumped all over Anelka but said little when the white footballer made the same gesture 



> His friendship with Anelka seems genuine, but one based on a shared political philosophy? As far back as 2010 the connection between the two had already been established with a debate on French TV entitled _“Anelka is the Dieudonné of football?“_ after Anelka’s ‘unpatriotic’ views on not wanting to sing the French national anthem during international games and highlighting the problems Muslim football players face. Anelka himself converted to Islam in 2004.


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 30, 2013)

LiamO said:


> a) what the 'Comedian' himself has to say.
> 
> b) In what context did this all _start_?
> 
> c) Has aforesaid 'comedian' made any attempt to distance himself from some of those who have adopted his apparently Trademarked sign.



Still? Someone who in the same political scene as batskin? There's asking and there's pretending not to see the answers. They are on this thread. You thanked people for them. Why didn't you bother reading them?


----------



## LiamO (Dec 30, 2013)

Stop talking in tongues you tedious bore. Who is batskin when he is at home?

and your post needs some S's I think.


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 30, 2013)

Nice one said:


> it's supposed to be both, that's the point. The kind of 'fuck you' gesture (as opposed to the sniggering coded anti-semitism of the people doing the quenelle in the photos linked to on this thread) works if your audience is the alienated and disenfranchised urban underclass that Dieudonné has been cultivating. Be interesting to hear more on this relationship:
> 
> http://uniceone.wordpress.com/2013/12/29/anelka-gesture-politics-on-the-football-field/


Who says that it's supposed to be both? What is the other part of the gesture - the anti-establishment component made of? They suggest that the two are the same and you endorse this logic in this post, so where is it? That's the danger of this bloody thing.


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 30, 2013)

LiamO said:


> Stop talking in tongues you tedious bore. Who is batskin when he is at home?
> 
> and your post needs some S's I think.


Cheers for your input on this joey barton thread liam


----------



## LiamO (Dec 30, 2013)

Over to you Nice one 

I cba engaging with Constable Strapon


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 30, 2013)

liam said:
			
		

> Lots of people have since posted lots of incriminating stuff...



Who did it incriminate people in - and what?


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 30, 2013)

LiamO said:


> Over to you Nice one
> 
> I cba engaging with Constable Strapon


Poor.


----------



## LiamO (Dec 30, 2013)

Cheers for your input on this 'see things in my black & white way or I'll stamp my feet' thread butch


----------



## LiamO (Dec 30, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Poor.



yes. You are piss-poor.


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 30, 2013)

LiamO said:


> Cheers for your input on this 'see things in my black & white way or I'll stamp my feet' thread butch


Oh god, here comes _the grey,_ the kids and the _save them _nunnery. We have established nearly a 100 years far-right activity for the people involved here. They're not kids. They're not being influenced by anyone but the far-right.


----------



## J Ed (Dec 30, 2013)

LiamO said:


> Cheers for your input on this 'see things in my black & white way or I'll stamp my feet' thread butch



Le Pen is his daughter's godparent FFS


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 30, 2013)

One point worth talking about here is the now effective political separation between anti-racism and anti-semitism. To be the former is to be placed out of bounds, to be the latter is  

_We're anti-racists, that's why we have done this._


----------



## dilberto (Dec 30, 2013)

Where are human rights on issues like this?


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 30, 2013)

dilberto said:


> Where are human rights on issues like this?


Fuck off twat.


----------



## Wilf (Dec 30, 2013)

LiamO said:


> Wilf  Perhaps you could be a little more specific about what exactly you are implying? Thank you.


I'm implying nothing, it's the implication in your post I'm getting at:



> Can anyone point me to something that shows the point this 'comedian' is _actually_ trying to make rather than the myriad of pieces showing what various interest groups have _decided_ he is trying to make?



In posting that you seem to have some reasonable expectation that the 'comedian' is being misrepresented or is saying something entirely different - or why would you raise the issue at all?  You clearly think the 'interest groups' (Jewish groups? Anti-Racists?  Who do you mean?) have got it wrong, have jumped in, have made assumptions.  Clearly, you think the 'comedian' may be making a more noble point, may be pointing us to something better, wiser?  Yes?


----------



## Fedayn (Dec 30, 2013)

LiamO said:


> I dunno. That's why I asked the question.
> 
> I was on my way to bed full of pints and a cursory google produced rent-a-quotes from talking heads. I figured someone would be along who knew some background.



You've been given plenty of background and yet you still persist with this idiocy? Or are you still full of pints?


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 30, 2013)

liam said:
			
		

> I am always suspicious of tabloids crying 'RACIST'... so should you be. For example the Roy Hodgson 'Monkey' debacle...



The one where no one at called him a RACIST? 

And this story was in the papers that you think only quality people read.


----------



## Fedayn (Dec 30, 2013)

J Ed said:


> Le Pen is his daughter's godparent FFS



He gave an award to Robert Faurisson in public, aye that Faurisson, the 'New Right' Holocaust denier. He stood on an election ticket with ex FN executive and anti-semite Alain Soral, not exactly the behaviour of someone critical of anti-semitism.


----------



## Part 2 (Dec 30, 2013)

Wilf said:


> 'Thought to be considering going on twitter' - fucking hell, he's decisive.  Joey Barton would be there like a shot.



A somewhat feeble 'apology'. Millionaire footballers against the system.

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co...anchester-city-midfielder-samir-nasri-6455583


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 30, 2013)

Watch liam shift from what point the comedian  "is actually trying to make" to simply asking what people supporting him means socially - whilst ignoring the special interest groups that he suggested were making it up. To do that would be acknowledging the accuracy of their claims. Where he to do this honestly he would have to have a look at his second post on this thread and say that it wasn't up to snuff.


----------



## Lemon Eddy (Dec 30, 2013)

LiamO said:


> Lots of people have since posted lots of incriminating stuff (thank you btw), although I have still to see...
> 
> a) what the 'Comedian' himself has to say.
> b) In what context did this all _start_? And how has it evolved? For example both young black people from the ghettoes _and_ the Front Nationale both going for it? WTF is _that_ all about?
> c) Has aforesaid 'comedian' made any attempt to distance himself from some of those who have adopted his apparently Trademarked sign. Or is he happy with how things have progressed?



What he has to say?  Examples have already been given:

"During his one-man show, he attacked Patrick Cohen, a Jewish radio journalist who has publicly criticised him. Dieudonné said: “When the wind turns, I don’t think he’ll have time to pack a suitcase. When I hear Patrick Cohen talking, you see, I think of gas ovens.”"

In what context?  It's already been pointed out who he is happy to work with, that he picked La Pen As the god parent of one of his children.  Has he made any attempt to distance himself from anti-semitism.  You now want people to prove a negative?

It is hard to interpret your posts as anything other than a poor attempt at defending the indefensible through sophistry.


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 30, 2013)

LiamO said:


> Can anyone point me to something that shows the point this 'comedian' is _actually_ trying to make rather than the myriad of pieces showing what various interest groups that _decided_ he is trying to make?


Look, you even emphasised _actually _as if to say that there is a point that he was _really _making that's worth a listen to, that's being hidden. Sort it out. Sort yourself out.


----------



## imposs1904 (Dec 30, 2013)

Chip Barm said:


> A somewhat feeble 'apology'. Millionaire footballers against the system.
> 
> http://www.manchestereveningnews.co...anchester-city-midfielder-samir-nasri-6455583



I'd be curious to know what this 'system' is that Nasri is against?


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 30, 2013)

imposs1904 said:


> I'd be curious to know what this 'system' is that Nasri is against?


Note: Classic apology to people who have been hurt by the actions of others in relation to his actions.


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 30, 2013)

Why can't anyone say, _wow, this is pretty anti-semitic. I'm not anti-semitic. I wish i hadn't done this. (here's some money for local anti-racist groups)_


----------



## J Ed (Dec 30, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Why can't anyone say, _wow, this is pretty anti-semitic. I'm not anti-semitic. I wish i hadn't done this. (here's some money for local anti-racist groups)_



If you hate Jews and your mates hate Jews then you aren't gonna do that, are you?


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 30, 2013)

J Ed said:


> If you hate Jews and your mates hate Jews then you aren't gonna do that, are you?


There's certainly some blockage occurring. _Something _is stopping them acting like non-racists.


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 30, 2013)

Oh god, Dexter is going to come back and say that blockage is ISRAEL.


----------



## J Ed (Dec 30, 2013)

There isn't even any of the classic 'some of my best mates are Jews', probably cos if they said that then their Jew hating mates would get upset.


----------



## IC3D (Dec 30, 2013)

I think its supposed to be sticking an arm up someones arse and the the raised hand showing how far, ie the level of disdain for the object of derision. The French are crude imbeciles though and I agree with some of the analysis on this thread that it is broadly a disturbing fusion of right/left/conspiracy theory populism which I've come across in the UK with parts of Occupy et al. 

A couple of English language pages from a month ago.

http://counterpsyops.com/2013/11/28/the-quenelle-the-new-sign-of-resistance/

http://antisemitism.org.il/article/83512/quenelle-jew-game


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 30, 2013)

IC3D said:


> I think its supposed to be sticking an arm up someones arse and the the raised hand showing how far, ie the level of disdain for the object of derision. The French are crude imbeciles though and I agree with some of the analysis on this thread that it is broadly a disturbing fusion of right/left/conspiracy theory populism which I've come across in the UK with parts of Occupy et al.
> 
> A couple of English language pages from a month ago.
> 
> ...





> Fans of the antisemitic comedian Dieudonné have started a new game: get a picture of yourself making the 'quenelle salute', a backwards Nazi salute, next to Jewish or Israeli places.  Or even better: next to a group of Jews.


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 30, 2013)

More to the point: what sort of cunt would do this?


----------



## IC3D (Dec 30, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> More to the point: what sort of cunt would do this?


A racist one.


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 30, 2013)

IC3D said:


> A racist one.


A far right one, an islamic one, a conspiracy theory one...anyone else


----------



## Sue (Dec 30, 2013)

IC3D said:


> I think its supposed to be sticking an arm up someones arse and the the raised hand showing how far, ie the level of disdain for the object of derision. The *French are crude imbeciles* though and I agree with some of the analysis on this thread that it is broadly a disturbing fusion of right/left/conspiracy theory populism which I've come across in the UK with parts of Occupy et al.
> 
> A couple of English language pages from a month ago.
> 
> ...


 
Nothing like a sweeping generalisation, eh?


----------



## IC3D (Dec 30, 2013)

Sue said:


> Nothing like a sweeping generalisation, eh?


It was a fucking joke.


----------



## Sue (Dec 30, 2013)

IC3D said:


> It was a fucking joke.


 
Oh. I thought jokes were mean to be funny...?


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 30, 2013)

What's the fuckin point  seriously.


----------



## elbows (Dec 30, 2013)

A review of his shit film: http://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-arts-and-culture/104436/antisemite-banned-at-cannes

And here a fairly lightweight UK media attempt to chart his descent, ending with:



> Despite his attempts to rationalise his position as “populist” and “anti-system” Dieudonné has drifted in recent years into outright Jew-baiting. Despite his positioning on the conspiratorial eft, he has become increasingly close to the far right.
> 
> The driving force for the conversion of Dieudonné to extremist politics is unclear. Some critics suggest that his motivation is money. Performances at his own shabby theatre near the Bastille and on his French tours – one of which begins in Nantes next week – are always sold out.
> 
> ...



http://www.independent.co.uk/news/p...nelkas-quenelle-goal-celebration-9030721.html


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 30, 2013)

revol68 said:


> Cos oppressed nations is a fascist concept.


Yep, the proletarian nation was a concept invented by Mussolini


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 30, 2013)

J Ed said:


> Someone actually told me that the interim ruler of Egypt Al-Sisi is Jewish but insisted that saying that wasn't anti Semitic because he had no problem with Jews he was just upset that he wasn't being honest about being Jewish. Fucking idiocy.



Bit like Obama not being honest about his birth certificate? Fuck these people (and I don't for a moment think there's owt wrong with Obama's birth certificate I'm just fed up of these 'arguments'


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 30, 2013)

What use are you to anti-fascists  now liam if you can't identify what you're fighting? Anyone who calls themselves anti-fascist fighter Or is it just old fucking stories over and over.


----------



## elbows (Dec 30, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> Bit like Obama not being honest about his birth certificate? Fuck these people (and I don't for a moment think there's owt wrong with Obama's birth certificate I'm just fed up of these 'arguments'



Was even more obvious in Libya: http://forward.com/articles/146435/qaddafis-hatred-of-jews-turned-on-him/?p=all


----------



## J Ed (Dec 30, 2013)

How widespread is this stuff? Why is this idea gaining currency with the urban French poor when France has such a (relatively) strong left? 

It's a bit like the illuminati/conspiracy bullshit that seems to be increasingly popular here and in the US. I absolutely despair.


----------



## LiamO (Dec 30, 2013)

Fedayn said:


> You've been given plenty of background and yet you still persist with this idiocy? Or are you still full of pints?



What exactly is your beef, Fed?

I asked a question. It was answered.

Then I asked a few more. I hope they will be answered in due course.


----------



## LiamO (Dec 30, 2013)

J Ed said:


> How widespread is this stuff? Why is this idea gaining currency with the urban French poor when France has such a (relatively) strong left?



Good questions, well worth asking.


----------



## Fedayn (Dec 30, 2013)

LiamO said:


> What exactly is your beef, Fed?
> 
> I asked a question. It was answered.
> 
> Then I asked a few more. I hope they will be answered in due course.



Because you seem unable to work what is pretty clear to the rest of us. For someone who is happy to relay their anti-fascist past your inability to see the grubby reality of both Anelkas and Dieudonnes little gesture says more about you than you seem able to realise.


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## LiamO (Dec 30, 2013)

are all these young french people meant to be Fascists now? The symbol seems to have different meanings to different people.






It seems pretty clear what it means to the gurning ghouls on the photos posted earlier next to holocaust memorials. 

These people though are apparently taking the piss out of the Cabinet Minister in their midst. 

I am curious how it apparently means something entirely different to these young people - and (from links posted on here) to many more.

Like many symbols, it's meaning would appear to depend on who is doing it, where and why... and who is interpreting it's meaning  and where and why.


----------



## Fedayn (Dec 30, 2013)

Which Cabinet Minister is it?


----------



## LiamO (Dec 30, 2013)

Fedayn said:


> Because you seem unable to work what is pretty clear to the rest of us. For someone who is happy to relay their anti-fascist past your inability to see the grubby reality of both Anelkas and Dieudonnes little gesture says more about you than you seem able to realise.



Explain it to me like I am six then.

I am still waiting for someone who actually knows it's origin and history to come along and explain exactly what it was _claimed_ to represent. It would seem perfectly clear what it has _come to_ represent for many.

Was Dieudonnes always dodge or has he shifted rightwards as this has rippled out?

WHY is it popular amongst rebellious youth in France? Are they all just Fascists or does it mean something else to them?


----------



## Humberto (Dec 30, 2013)

Is this a 'do this gesture if you hate Jews' trend? 

Israel-Gaza kicked off again recently so maybe this was Anelka "showing solidarity"?


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## Favelado (Dec 30, 2013)

It's often an anti-semitic gesture invented by an anti-semite and if other people are using it in other ways they can fuck off as well.


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## LiamO (Dec 30, 2013)

Fedayn said:


> Which Cabinet Minister is it?




*when the French interior minister and upper Zionist Manuel Valls allowed to take a picture with a group of young people.*

*Unbeknownst to him, the teenagers showed the Quenelle and so what they think of him.
*
_This one. So what's his story? _


----------



## LiamO (Dec 30, 2013)

apparently (according to Wikipedia anyway) he is a right-wing labourite of a conservative catholic persuasion (a French Jack Straw?)

e2a sorry he is apparently a secularist freemason with a conservative catholic lineage.


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## Fedayn (Dec 30, 2013)

LiamO said:


> Explain it to me like I am six then.
> 
> I am still waiting for someone who actually knows it's origin and history to come along and explain exactly what it was _claimed_ to represent. It would seem perfectly clear what it has _come to_ represent for many.
> 
> ...



Dieudonne 'invented' the gesture, it was from his own arsenal of ideas. He claims it is 'anti-establishment' he claims it is anti-zionist, he denies it is anti-semitic and yet he is involved with Soral, Le Pen, Faurisson. His supporters have developed the game of doing this outside Jewish places of interest/places associated with Jews/the Holocaust. He has no problem with this.... Dots joined?

Dieudonne was originally on the Left, he then used his link with pro-Palestinian causes to make alliances, even electorally, with anti-semitic/far-right/Islamic groups. Like Soral and poujade before him, Dieudonne plays the pro Palestinian not anti-semite card but constantly organises with the anti-semitic far-right.

It's really easy when you try....


----------



## Humberto (Dec 30, 2013)

So French Muslims and right wingers are on the same page?


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## LiamO (Dec 30, 2013)

Fedayn said:


> Dieudonne 'invented' the gesture, it was from his own arsenal of ideas. He claims it is 'anti-establishment' he claims it is anti-zionist, he denies it is anti-semitic and yet he is involved with Soral, Le Pen, Faurisson. His supporters have developed the game of doing this outside Jewish places of interest/places associated with Jews/the Holocaust. He has no problem with this.... Dots joined?
> 
> Dieudonne was originally on the Left, he then used his link with pro-Palestinian causes to make alliances, even electorally, with anti-semitic/far-right/Islamic groups. Like Soral and poujade before him, Dieudonne plays the pro Palestinian not anti-semite card but constantly organises with the anti-semitic far-right.
> 
> It's really easy when you try....



Thank you for the info.


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## J Ed (Dec 30, 2013)

LiamO said:


> apparently (according to Wikipedia anyway) he is a right-wing labourite of a conservative catholic persuasion (a French Jack Straw?)
> 
> e2a sorry he is apparently a secularist freemason with a conservative catholic lineage.



He is in the French government that makes him part of 'ZOG' according to these idiots


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## LiamO (Dec 31, 2013)

Can you explain to me Fed why it was apparently no big deal when the white footballer did it but is a huge deal now Anelka has done it? What has happened in the meantime?


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## Fedayn (Dec 31, 2013)

LiamO said:


> *when the French interior minister and upper Zionist Manuel Valls allowed to take a picture with a group of young people.*
> 
> *Unbeknownst to him, the teenagers showed the Quenelle and so what they think of him.
> *
> _This one. So what's his story? _



He has Bilderberg links, but was critical of them for their 'Atlanticism'. He is also a Freemason, that alone fits far-right French conspiracy theories. Whether those two points explain the reaction, who knows.


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## Fedayn (Dec 31, 2013)

LiamO said:


> Can you explain to me Fed why it was apparently no big deal when the white footballer did it but is a huge deal now Anelka has done it? What has happened in the meantime?



The simple explanation is so few people saw it. Similarly with Nasri and Sakho, so few people saw it ergo far less scrutiny and questioning.


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## LiamO (Dec 31, 2013)

J Ed said:


> He is in the French government that makes him part of 'ZOG' according to these idiots



So all those people are fascist conspiracy theorists? I find that hard to believe tbh.


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## Fedayn (Dec 31, 2013)

LiamO said:


> So all those people are fascist conspiracy theorists? I find that hard to believe tbh.



Not all anti-semites are fascist conspiracy theorists. Anti-semitism isn't the preserve of the far-right.


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## LiamO (Dec 31, 2013)

Fedayn said:


> The simple explanation is so few people saw it. Similarly with Nasri and Sakho, so few people saw it ergo far less scrutiny and questioning.



Sorry, I thought it was done in the French Cup Final. Dunno where I picked that up from, but I think it was a link posted here.

Would still like to see some wheat from the chaff going on though.


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## Humberto (Dec 31, 2013)

So how do this affect French Jews in context? Is this in response to government economic austerity?


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## LiamO (Dec 31, 2013)

Fedayn said:


> Not all anti-semites are fascist conspiracy theorists. Anti-semitism isn't the preserve of the far-right.



I was responding to J Ed's ZOG comment.

I know fuck all about the nuances of French society/politics tbh. But I am curious.


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## elbows (Dec 31, 2013)

LiamO said:


> *when the French interior minister and upper Zionist Manuel Valls allowed to take a picture with a group of young people.*
> 
> *Unbeknownst to him, the teenagers showed the Quenelle and so what they think of him.
> *
> _This one. So what's his story? _



Wrong photo. Its the one below those words in the article that shows the cabinet minister with a small bunch of young people making the gesture, not the one above it which you posted.


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## Fedayn (Dec 31, 2013)

LiamO said:


> Sorry, I thought it was done in the French Cup Final. Dunno where I picked that up from, but I think it was a link posted here.
> 
> Would still like to see some wheat from the chaff going on though.



I believe it was, however, a bit like Italy, it's not the FA Cup by any standards, it doesn't get the same coverage and his team, Montpelier, aren't big news these days. 
There is also the possibility that many people were not aware of what it was. 

It's simple, it was a gesture, invented by an anti-semite to try and excuse his Jew hatred under the guise of anti-establishment/zionist veneer. The reasons that people believe his 'cover story' could be manifold, it doesn't however make it any less true.


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## goldenecitrone (Dec 31, 2013)

Interesting little look at contemporary French culture. Who knew they had this cross between Bernard Manning and Goebbels? I suppose we have Anelka's moment of madness to thank for that.


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## Fedayn (Dec 31, 2013)

LiamO said:


> I was responding to J Ed's ZOG comment.
> 
> I know fuck all about the nuances of French society/politics tbh. But I am curious.



Anti-semitism isn't a distant bedfellow in french politics.


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## LiamO (Dec 31, 2013)

Thanks Elbows. They look like a typical bunch of geeky students being a bit smart-arsed (a bit like making bunny ears) rather than making an anti-semitic statement.

I am curious as to how this sign was 'hilarious' to them then... and is a different kettle of fish now apparently. What happened? It's been on the go for quite a while so why the sudden escalation in it's seriousness?

Or are they Federation of Conservative Student types?


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## elbows (Dec 31, 2013)

> Since then the _quenelle_ has spread rapidly in France. French academic and far-right expert Jean-Yves Camus, in an interview in left-leaning daily newspaper Libération in September, called the _quenelle_ a “badge of identity, especially among the young, although it is difficult to say whether they really understand its meaning”.
> 
> Camus added that Dieudonné has become the focus of a “broad movement that is anti-system and prone to conspiracy theories, but which has anti-Semitism as its backbone”.
> 
> “Their conviction is that there is a world order dominated by Washington and Tel Aviv,” he said. “Behind speeches that are critical of NATO and global finance, and supportive of [Syrian President] Bashar al-Assad and [late Venezuelan president] Hugo Chavez, there is the underlying conviction that it is the Jews who are pulling all the strings.”



http://www.france24.com/en/20131230-france-quenelle-anti-semitism-anelka-dieudonne/


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## Humberto (Dec 31, 2013)

Sounds like popular antisemitism.  Jews 'pulling all the strings'.


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## imposs1904 (Dec 31, 2013)

elbows said:


> http://www.france24.com/en/20131230-france-quenelle-anti-semitism-anelka-dieudonne/



From that link:



> In August 2013, Dieudonné posted a video in which he argued that the quenelle had taken on a life of its own and had become something he could no longer claim as his exclusively.
> 
> “I had no idea that this rather silly gesture could become a subversive act that was capable of becoming the trigger to start the emancipation of the working masses,” he said. “It no longer belongs to me. It belongs to the coming revolution.”
> 
> *But his claim that the quenelle no longer belongs to him is not altogether true. The comedian has been busy launching a range of quenelle-related merchandise, while his wife in October registered the quenelle as a trademark with the French National Industrial Property Institute.*



scumbags


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## FNG (Dec 31, 2013)

Whats the crossover appeal with generation identaire ? Dont the FN have an oar in that boat too?


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## elbows (Dec 31, 2013)

NBA star Tony Parker has apologised, after a photo of him making the gesture was put on the Simon Wiesenthal list of top 10 anti-semitic/anti-Israel slurs for 2013. 

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2013/dec/30/tony-parker-nazi-quenelle-salute-dieudonne



> “While this gesture has been part of French culture for many years, it was not until recently that I learned of the very negative concerns associated with it. When l was photographed making that gesture three years ago, I thought it was part of a comedy act and did not know that it could be in any way offensive or harmful. Since I have been made aware of the seriousness of this gesture, I will certainly never repeat the gesture and sincerely apologize for any misunderstanding or harm relating to my actions. Hopefully this incident will serve to educate others that we need to be more aware that things that may seem innocuous can actually have a history of hate and hurt.”



Unfortunately the top ten list is itself, in places, full of hate and bile.


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## Casually Red (Dec 31, 2013)

Humberto said:


> Sounds like popular antisemitism.  Jews 'pulling all the strings'.




except its the critic saying it in this case, not the broad mass of people hes giving out about, who he says in the next breath dont understand what it means. Which looks to me like hes ascribing a meaning for it for them .

Which makes me more than a bit of wary of the pundit in question who apparently specialises in the relationship between the far left and the zionist entity . This makes me a bit wary of that guys analysis. Because what he seems to be having a go at are the elements on the left who are anti zionist and anti washington, and ascribing anti semitism to that . Thats my take on it anyway .

http://www.iris-france.org/cv.php?fichier=cv/cv2&nom=camus


That Id hasten to add shouldnt be miscontrued as any form of support for the gesture, anelka or the comedian. Because I simply dont support any of it . I just get a sniff of this particular academic chucking a bucket of anti semitic slurry over a very broad range of people on the french left whos views on zionism and Washington he seems to have the hump over.


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## frogwoman (Dec 31, 2013)

God how depressing.


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## Fedayn (Dec 31, 2013)

Casually Red said:


> except its the critic saying it in this case, not the broad mass of people hes giving out about, who he says in the next breath dont understand what it means. Which looks to me like hes ascribing a meaning for it for them .
> 
> Which makes me more than a bit of wary of the pundit in question who apparently specialises in the relationship between the far left and the zionist entity, not the extreme right . This makes me a bit wary of that guys analysis. Because what he seems to be having a go at are the elements on the left who are anti zionist and anti washington, and ascribing anti semitism to that . Thats my take on it anyway .
> 
> ...



Have you bothered to read anything about Dieudonne and what he says, who he organises with?


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## Casually Red (Dec 31, 2013)

Fedayn said:


> Have you bothered to read anything about Dieudonne and what he says, who he organises with?




Indeed I have and i thought id made it clear...im not in any manner supportive of the guy or remotely trying to defend him

Have you read what Ive said ? Plainly you havent . Go back and read it again .


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## Casually Red (Dec 31, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> God how depressing.



what is ? Im criticising the very broad strokes this particular pundit is using against a very wide range of people , who he claims are anti semitic for using an anti semitic gesture they dont know is anti semitic .


eta

and claiming they in turn are representative of a wider anti washington and anti zionist current
Do you agree with a crappy analysis like that ?


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## elbows (Dec 31, 2013)

Casually Red said:


> except its the critic saying it in this case, not the broad mass of people hes giving out about, who he says in the next breath dont understand what it means. Which looks to me like hes ascribing a meaning for it for them .



I've not looked into him yet, but the way I read it was different. I thought he was treating the youth who he says have the gesture as an identity badge, and those who support Dieudonné, as two different groups. There will be an overlap, but the scale of it is somewhat hard to determine. The longer-term response to the recent awareness about this gesture and anti-semitism might offer some clues, e.g. will its popular use decline, how much of a struggle will there be to retain the idea that there is an non-anti-semitic interpretation of it?


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## SLK (Dec 31, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Sort it out. Sort yourself out.



The boss we know and love.


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## Fedayn (Dec 31, 2013)

Casually Red said:


> Indeed I have and i thought id made it clear...im not in any manner supportive of the guy or remotely trying to defend him
> 
> Have you read what Ive said ? Plainly you havent . Go back and read it again .



No, i've read it and like elbows see the clear differentiation the writer is making, you clearly don't. As I said earlier that some people-for manifold reasons-might not make the connection between the gesture and the anti-semitic throbber behind it doesn't make it any less anti-semitic in it's origin or in its use by Dieudonne.

By the way, what part of the 'Left' behaviour do you think would encourage such a gesture, with it's genesis, outside Jewish as opposed to Israeli buildings/places etc? Or in the company of Jewish people?


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## frogwoman (Dec 31, 2013)

Casually Red said:


> what is ? Im criticising the very broad strokes this particular pundit is using against a very wide range of people , who he claims are anti semitic for using an anti semitic gesture they dont know is anti semitic .
> 
> 
> eta
> ...



Eh? I'm saying the whole thread is depressing, I hadn't even read your post when I said that


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## Casually Red (Dec 31, 2013)

elbows said:


> I've not looked into him yet, but the way I read it was different. I thought he was treating the youth who he says have the gesture as an identity badge, and those who support Dieudonné, as two different groups. There will be an overlap, but the scale of it is somewhat hard to determine. The longer-term response to the recent awareness about this gesture and anti-semitism might offer some clues, e.g. will its popular use decline, how much of a struggle will there be to retain the idea that there is an non-anti-semitic interpretation of it?




if you read the guy its not the gesture or even the _comedian_ hes really giving out about . The focus of his entire attack is a broad left wing base of opinion. Anti NATO, Anti Washington, Anti Zionist, Pro Chavez ..himself accused of anti semitism..Pro Syrian, Pro Palestinian. And hes telling them theyre anti semitic without realising they are . Mainly because of what theyre against ...which he ascribes...on their behalf ... as being down to some conspiracy theory about  the jews controlling everything.

So, plainly if you wish to demonstrate you dont hold this anti semtic cosnpiracy theory youd be pro zionist and pro washington, anti Syria etc instead.


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## Casually Red (Dec 31, 2013)

Fedayn said:


> No, i've read it and like elbows see the clear differentiation the writer is making, you clearly don't. As I said earlier that some people-for manifold reasons-might not make the connection between the gesture and the anti-semitic throbber behind it doesn't make it any less anti-semitic in it's origin or in its use by Dieudonne.
> 
> By the way, what part of the 'Left' behaviour do you think would encourage such a gesture, with it's genesis, outside Jewish as opposed to Israeli buildings/places etc? Or in the company of Jewish people?




read my fucking post above, jesus.

I made clear in my original post  I wasnt even talking  about the gesture, the player, or the fucking shitty comedian.

I was talking solely about this particular pundit taking the opportunity to ascribe anti semistism to a much wider group of people who hold *political opinions*. Which he ascribes to anti semitism. He doesnt even claim they all use the gesture . He just says the anti jewish comedian is their figurehead because of what they believe in . Thats simple opportunism in my book .


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## Casually Red (Dec 31, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> Eh? I'm saying the whole thread is depressing, I hadn't even read your post when I said that




sincere apologies, shields are currently up and Im on defcon 2


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## Fedayn (Dec 31, 2013)

Casually Red said:


> if you read the guy its not the gesture or even the _comedian_ hes really giving out about . The focus of his entire attack is a broad left wing base of opinion. *Anti NATO, Anti Washington, Anti Zionist, Pro Chavez ..himself accused of anti semitism..Pro Syrian, Pro Palestinian. *And hes telling them theyre anti semitic without realising they are . Mainly because of what theyre against ...which he ascribes...on their behalf ... as being down to some conspiracy theory about  the jews controlling everything.
> 
> So, plainly if you wish to demonstrate you dont hold this anti semtic cosnpiracy theory youd be pro zionist and pro washington, anti Syria etc instead.



All of the above are ideas that the French, Italian, German far-right hold. The 'new' far-right are making a serious play on these very issues. The very same groups who still talk about the controlling families and groups, ie Bilderbergs etc behind this very same 'system'. This links in with the move by both Soral and Diuedonne from the 'marxist'/Stalinist left to working with far-right/anti-semite/Islamic anti-Jewish groups.


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## Fedayn (Dec 31, 2013)

Casually Red said:


> read my fucking post above, jesus.
> 
> I made clear in my original post  I wasnt even talking  about the gesture, the player, or the fucking shitty comedian.
> 
> I was talking solely about this particular pundit taking the opportunity to ascribe anti semistism to a much wider group of people who hold *political opinions*. Which he ascribes to anti semitism. He doesnt even claim they all use the gesture . He just says the anti jewish comedian is their figurehead because of what they believe in . Thats simple opportunism in my book .



Do you think they ignore his jibes about gas chambers? His standing with a known fascist in elections? His giving Faurisson the award? The French far-right vote is in the millions, that Dieudonne might have the 'support' of a few thousand is hardly unlikely or impossible given that is what he is now looking at and trying to bring along with his 'synthesis' of Left/Right.


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## Casually Red (Dec 31, 2013)

right so...run about shouting class at things


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## Fedayn (Dec 31, 2013)

Whoooooooshh........


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## Casually Red (Dec 31, 2013)

Fedayn said:


> Do you think they ignore his jibes about gas chambers? His standing with a known fascist in elections? His giving Faurisson the award? The French far-right vote is in the millions, that Dieudonne might have the 'support' of a few thousand is hardly unlikely or impossible given that is what he is now looking at and trying to bring along with his 'synthesis' of Left/Right.




why are you even talking about him in realtion to my posts ? I wasnt . How many fucking times do I have to point that out . 

Its plain your stuck in a seperate issue to what I was referring to .


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## Casually Red (Dec 31, 2013)

Fedayn said:


> Whoooooooshh........



ditto


obviously youd like me to be talking about something else for your own purposes . The fact is though I wasnt .


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## Fedayn (Dec 31, 2013)

Casually Red said:


> why are you even talking about him in realtion to my posts ? I wasnt . How many fucking times do I have to point that out .
> 
> Its plain your stuck in a seperate issue to what I was referring to .



Who do you think the people that Dieudonne is trying to reach are following? Is Dieudonne somehow irrelevant in this? Why is this same broad brush approach re the ideas you mention not being used (in the same way) against those on the Left not following Dieudonne? Is it an accident or is there a reason for it? Possibly because what Soral, Dieudonne et al are trying to do is use, like other  anti-semites in Europe, the language once associated with the 'left' as a way of getting them into the 'Red/Brown' link up they are promoting?
You can't simply remove Dieudonne from the equation as you clearly are wanting to do.


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## Favelado (Dec 31, 2013)

Casually Red is trolling but pretending not to troll I feel. I also feel this is what he does most of the time on Urban.


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## Casually Red (Dec 31, 2013)

Favelado said:


> Casually Red is trolling but pretending not to troll I feel. I also feel this is what he does most of the time on Urban.



seriously, fuck off


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## Casually Red (Dec 31, 2013)

Fedayn said:


> Who do you think the people that Dieudonne is trying to reach are following? Is Dieudonne somehow irrelevant in this? Why is this same broad brush approach re the ideas you mention not being used (in the same way) against those on the Left not following Dieudonne? Is it an accident or is there a reason for it? Possibly because what Soral, Dieudonne et al are trying to do is use, like other  anti-semites in Europe, the language once associated with the 'left' as a way of getting them into the 'Red/Brown' link up they are promoting?
> You can't simply remove Dieudonne from the equation as you clearly are wanting to do.




My reference was solely to Camus, not the salute or the prick comedian . Your trying to drag me into supporting Camus analysis, which I was questioning and saying I was wary of. Again, he personally ascribes an anti semite as titular leader of a wider anti zionist, anti Nato, anti imperialist leftist platform . That is a clear attack on those political positions and those who hold them as anti semitic ...as if they wouldnt exist were it not for some prick of a comedian. It is the default pro zionist attack on an anti zionist stance ...anti semitism.

The wider issue of the european left disappearing up its own arsehole is secondary . Whatevers useful in its remnants will most likely be absorbed by the new right in typical Darwinian fashion. Thats what happens when something dies , parasites and vermin devour the caracass. The vaccuum the Left were incapable of filling accross europe is big enough now for the right to drive a column of Panzers through . A nasty little comedian is an irrelavance to that . Although I can see how itd be a handy scapegoat .


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## elbows (Dec 31, 2013)

Casually Red said:


> Which makes me more than a bit of wary of the pundit in question who apparently specialises in the relationship between the far left and the zionist entity .



His abbreviated CV on several sites does seem to dwell on those areas, but when doing stuff like machine-translating his french wikipedia page, it seems he has done plenty of studies of the far-right too. Here is a not terribly interesting english example of him being interviewed about the National Front a few years back:

http://www.blog.schattenbericht.de/...-makes-ground-interview-with-jean-yves-camus/

Certainly the aspect you've decided to dwell on deserves further exploration. However its largely part of a messy debate that has raged for decades about whether there is a 'new antisemitism', an argument that is fraught with pitfalls and people on all sides who drag it straight to the worst extremes.

Rather than go there, and get bogged down in issues related to Israel, I would rather focus on other aspects of antisemitism and the things that drive it. For example there are reasons why u75 seems to have had more threads where we've had to point out dodgy anti-semitic aspects of peoples stances in recent years, and they certainly aren't popping up because of some recent behaviour by Israel. 

Cynicism, both reasonable and excessive, along with inadequate responses to it (e.g. lack of meaningful change), is certainly a big factor. A desire for simple explanations and scapegoats has always seduced some. So any analysis which suggests that some people are attracted to the idea of scapegoating in a manner that lets the actual ideological, economic & political flaws that caused the crisis off the hook, will get my attention. That the economic crisis appears to have been handled in a manner thats propped shit up and been used to further certain agendas that probably give capitalism another cycle of life & profit, has left room for this stuff to fester. Whether events will bring any of it to a head is as uncertain as ever, but in the meantime the momentum and acceptability of certain stuff should be watched closely and countered where possible. Meaningful alternatives would be nice but cynicism has extended in so many directions that suffocation is rampant.


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## FNG (Dec 31, 2013)

> My reference was solely to Camus, not the salute or the prick comedian . Your trying to drag me into supporting Camus analysis, which I was questioning and saying I was wary of. Again, he personally ascribes an anti semite as titular leader of a wider anti zionist, anti Nato, anti imperialist leftist platform .



Unfortunately Dieudonnehe is Camus straw man made flesh,he is tying his very public anti-semitism to an anti-establishment ticket,whilst simultaneously forming electoral  pacts with Sorel and co. Smearing a vast swathe of people on the left in the process.
http://nemesistv.info/video/7B59DE8...n-soral-dieudonne-vincent-lapierre-zohra-mahi
http://www.wat.tv/video/dieudonne-hommage-hugo-chavez-5tmi5_5djiz_.html

Aledgedly his next film "explores" jewish involvement in the slave trade


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## revol68 (Dec 31, 2013)

Casually Red said:


> if you read the guy its not the gesture or even the _comedian_ hes really giving out about . The focus of his entire attack is a broad left wing base of opinion. Anti NATO, Anti Washington, Anti Zionist, Pro Chavez ..himself accused of anti semitism..Pro Syrian, Pro Palestinian. And hes telling them theyre anti semitic without realising they are . Mainly because of what theyre against ...which he ascribes...on their behalf ... as being down to some conspiracy theory about  the jews controlling everything.
> 
> So, plainly if you wish to demonstrate you dont hold this anti semtic cosnpiracy theory youd be pro zionist and pro washington, anti Syria etc instead.


Has it eve occured to you that these issues framed in such a way are bugbears for euro fash, that euro nationalism isn't just moronic bootboys like the NF but has a particular analysis that essentially replaces class with national units... You'd fit right in, like a good little 3rd positionist.


----------



## Lemon Eddy (Dec 31, 2013)

Fuck me, this is depressing.  Want to run a public campaign of antisemitism?  Fine, just claim it's a gesture against the "global financial elite" and watch as people lap it up and repeat it en masse, even as your dumber fellow brethren give the game away by posting photos of them making the same gesture outside holocaust memorials, a Jewish school that was shot up, Anne Frank's house.  Hell, you'll even have people who claim to be antifascist defending you in forums...sorry, I'm attributing too much honesty to them, they're not defending, they're just asking questions, or examining the context, or concerned about the human rights angle.

Fuck. Just fuck.  At least fascists and their apologists used to be candid in their beliefs.


----------



## phildwyer (Dec 31, 2013)

Lemon Eddy said:


> Fuck me, this is depressing.  Want to run a public campaign of antisemitism?  Fine, just claim it's a gesture against the "global financial elite" and watch as people lap it up and repeat it en masse, even as your dumber fellow brethren



Excuse me?

Whose "dumber fellow brethren?"


----------



## redsquirrel (Dec 31, 2013)

Fedayn said:


> Do you think they ignore his jibes about gas chambers? His standing with a known fascist in elections? His giving Faurisson the award? The French far-right vote is in the millions, that Dieudonne might have the 'support' of a few thousand is hardly unlikely or impossible given that is what he is now looking at and trying to bring along with his 'synthesis' of Left/Right.


But Fed they are obviously just anti-imperialists.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 31, 2013)

LiamO said:


> are all these young french people meant to be Fascists now? The symbol seems to have different meanings to different people.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Sometimes kids fuck around like that.






Doesn't change the nastiness of the symbol they're fucking around with.


----------



## Lemon Eddy (Dec 31, 2013)

phildwyer said:


> Excuse me?
> 
> Whose "dumber fellow brethren?"



For most people you'd think, in a thread discussing the inventor and patent holder for the gesture, just whose brethren I might be referring to.  Tell you what, in consideration of any issues you may have with comprehension, let me repost the pictures already presented in this thread.

Here's the inventor, with some of his pals:






And here's one of those people making the same "Honest it's not about the jews" gesture at the Berlin holocaust memorial...






I eagerly await the next installment in the "just asking questions" show.


----------



## phildwyer (Dec 31, 2013)

Lemon Eddy said:


> For most people you'd think, in a thread discussing the inventor and patent holder for the gesture, just whose brethren I might be referring to.
> 
> I eagerly await the next installment in the "just asking questions" show.



Alright mi bredren.

Who are Anelka's "brethren?"


----------



## Lemon Eddy (Dec 31, 2013)

phildwyer said:


> Alright mi bredren.
> 
> Who are Anelka's "brethren?"



Why phil, I even gave you a picture example.  You know, the white skin head doing the "anti-global financial elite" gesture at that quintessential example of an elite financial site: a holocaust memorial.   And if you took 2 minutes, you could have a look at some other examples of fellow ideological believers making similar gestures against the establishment.  I like this one, for example, outside the Anne Frank musueum:


----------



## Lemon Eddy (Dec 31, 2013)

Oh, and noting that you've already tried a really quite impressive implication of racism on the grounds that brethren is a common greeting in Jamaican patois, I'd best head off the rather predictable claim of sexism by posting an example of a woman making a similarly non-jewish related whatsoever use of the gesture:


----------



## phildwyer (Dec 31, 2013)

Lemon Eddy said:


> Why phil, I even gave you a picture example.  You know, the white skin head doing the "anti-global financial elite" gesture at that quintessential example of an elite financial site: a holocaust memorial.



So by his "brethren" you meant Nazis?

Seems unlikely on a number of levels.

I thought you meant Muslims, or maybe worse.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Dec 31, 2013)

Sigh.


----------



## FNG (Dec 31, 2013)

not really
seeing as you were the one who introduced patois to the conversation
what he said


> even as your dumber fellow brethren give the game away by posting photos of them making the same gesture outside holocaust memorials, a Jewish school that was shot up, Anne Frank's house.


Anelka didn't do any of that.In fact he is obviously talking about Diuedonne and his fellow travellers on the far right,who Diuedonne has cosied up to.
Anelka doesn't even speak in cod patois ffs


----------



## Lemon Eddy (Dec 31, 2013)

phildwyer said:


> So by his "brethren" you meant Nazis?
> 
> Seems unlikely on a number of levels.
> 
> I thought you meant Muslims, or maybe worse.



Disingenuity != ingenuity phil, at some stage you really should learn the difference.


----------



## phildwyer (Dec 31, 2013)

FNG said:


> the far right



Again, I'm not sure what you mean.  Does Dieudonne call himself a rightist?


----------



## phildwyer (Dec 31, 2013)

Lemon Eddy said:


> Disingenuity != ingenuity phil, at some stage you really should learn the difference.



No, I really did think that's what you meant.  

And I remain unsure.  

I am however sure that you did not think you meant what I thought you meant.  If that's any consolation.


----------



## Maurice Picarda (Dec 31, 2013)

phildwyer said:


> No, I really did think that's what you meant.
> 
> And I remain unsure.
> 
> I am however sure that you did not think you meant what I thought you meant.  If that's any consolation.



Why can't you admit that you jumped to a wrong and unpleasant conclusion and apologise properly?


----------



## phildwyer (Dec 31, 2013)

Silas Loom said:


> Why can't you admit that you jumped to a wrong and unpleasant conclusion and apologise properly?



Because Anelka is obviously no brethren of Nazis.

So Lemon did not mean Nazis.

Maybe he meant anti-semites.


----------



## MellySingsDoom (Dec 31, 2013)

phildwyer said:


> Because Anelka is obviously no brethren of Nazis.



phil - I don't think anyone here is saying that Anelka hangs around with fash.  Dioudonne himself is a different matter, though - hanging around with Le Pen senior sure isn't a good move.


----------



## phildwyer (Dec 31, 2013)

MellySingsDoom said:


> Dioudonne himself is a different matter, though - hanging around with Le Pen senior sure isn't a good move.



Yes, but then Wiki has him standing as a candidate for an "extreme left-wing" party in 2004.

Sounds to me like he's one of them figures what demonstrate the obsolescence of this C18th left/right metaphor in the C21st.


----------



## MellySingsDoom (Dec 31, 2013)

phildwyer said:


> Yes, but then Wiki has him standing as a candidate for an "extreme left-wing" party in 2004.
> 
> Sounds to me like he's one of them figures what demonstrate the obsolescence of this C18th left/right metaphor in the C21st.



I'd have Dioudonne down as being part of a left/right convergence thing - developing links between traditional leftist concerns and rightist "thinking".  None of this is new of course - I'm sure it's been covered here many times in the past - and it'a not a situation unique to France.


----------



## Fedayn (Dec 31, 2013)

phildwyer said:


> Yes, but then Wiki has him standing as a candidate for an "extreme left-wing" party in 2004.



Which he left within months.


----------



## phildwyer (Dec 31, 2013)

MellySingsDoom said:


> I'd have Dioudonne down as being part of a left/right convergence thing - developing links between traditional leftist concerns and rightist "thinking".  None of this is new of course - I'm sure it's been covered here many times in the past - and it'a not a situation unique to France.



You'd think, wouldn't you, that the new dichotomy would settle around either pro- or anti-capitalist.

But it often seems that "Israel" functions as a surrogate for capital.  Not for the first time obv.


----------



## phildwyer (Dec 31, 2013)

Fedayn said:


> Which he left within months.



Numbers Carlos the Jackal among his supporters, according to Wiki.

Is CtJ on the left or the right?


----------



## where to (Dec 31, 2013)

LiamO said:


> Sorry, I thought it was done in the French Cup Final. Dunno where I picked that up from, but I think it was a link posted here.
> 
> Would still like to see some wheat from the chaff going on though.



It was a past 16 match agains sochaux. attendence 4500. Not a cup final.


----------



## Lemon Eddy (Dec 31, 2013)

phildwyer said:


> Because Anelka is obviously no brethren of Nazis


Well if it helps clarify things a bit more phil, I'll happily state that Anelka is not a nazi, and I don't think he's running a public campaign of antisemitism.  He's at best an idiot without the decency to apologise for a offensive gesture, and at worst an antisemite, but either way he's just an overpaid idiot with high levels of visibility.  Dioudonne on the other hand, whilst also not a nazi, is most certainly scum; unfortunately he's scum that's intelligent enough to muddy the waters surrounding his hate campaign, and claim he's just against the establishment and the financial elite.


----------



## Fedayn (Dec 31, 2013)

phildwyer said:


> Numbers Carlos the Jackal among his supporters, according to Wiki.
> 
> Is CtJ on the left or the right?



Is using Carlos as a 'weathervane' a serious way of looking at what someone is doing what their politics are? Faurisson, Soral and Le Pen are on the fascist Right, they are also supportive of Soral.


----------



## phildwyer (Dec 31, 2013)

Fedayn said:


> Is using Carlos as a 'weathervane' a serious way of looking at what someone is doing what their politics are? Faurisson, Soral and Le Pen are on the fascist Right, they are also supportive of Soral.



Obviously Dieudonne associates with both the extreme left and the extreme right.  He seems to draw support from both too.

So rather than a left or rightist we might call him an "extremist," or perhaps what he calls himself: "anti-establishment."


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Dec 31, 2013)

Carlos is certainly an anti-semite


----------



## phildwyer (Dec 31, 2013)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> Carlos is certainly an anti-semite



Of the left or of the right?

Also: Timothy McVeigh?


----------



## where to (Dec 31, 2013)

LiamO said:


> Sorry, I thought it was done in the French Cup Final. Dunno where I picked that up from, but I think it was a link posted here.



it was a last 16 match against Sochaux, attendence 4500.  by a second string right back who's played less than ten games.

(sorry, weird double post thing happened as i was on my phone)


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 31, 2013)

Casually Red said:


> except its the critic saying it in this case, not the broad mass of people hes giving out about, who he says in the next breath dont understand what it means. Which looks to me like hes ascribing a meaning for it for them .
> 
> Which makes me more than a bit of wary of the pundit in question who apparently specialises in the relationship between the far left and the zionist entity . This makes me a bit wary of that guys analysis. Because what he seems to be having a go at are the elements on the left who are anti zionist and anti washington, and ascribing anti semitism to that . Thats my take on it anyway .
> 
> ...


It certainly should not be misconstrued as that. It should be construed as that. The depths you plumb


----------



## Favelado (Dec 31, 2013)

Casually Red said:


> seriously, fuck off



It's fair comment CR. You're trolling on nine threads out of ten you post on, while pretending to be sincere.


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 31, 2013)

Favelado said:


> It's fair comment CR. You're trolling on nine threads out of ten you post on, while pretending to be sincere.


He's not. He believes in the shite he posts. Once he has more than 5 post then the thread is dwyered. This one will both quite soon.


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 31, 2013)

DexterTCN - you've been posting very recently. Do you want to re-visit your comments? Or are you going to bottle it?


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 31, 2013)

Some excellent posts elbows


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 31, 2013)

revol68 said:


> Has it eve occured to you that these issues framed in such a way are bugbears for euro fash, that euro nationalism isn't just moronic bootboys like the NF but has a particular analysis that essentially replaces class with national units... You'd fit right in, like a good little 3rd positionist.


This is the only way that the euro-far right come to peoples attention over here. Beyond CR's anti-imperialst squatting. It's just not known how ideologically sophisticated people like Serge Ayoub are here - it's not part of the far-right public tradition. Which leaves useful idiots like dexter open to being used.


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 31, 2013)

I would certainly say it has increased, and I find it really frightening. I don't think thinking it has is part of some Zionist attempt to mislead people, I'm definitely not a zionist, I suspect its a combination of scapegoating for the financial crisis (the same reason there are increasingly unsympathetic attitudes to 'welfare' etc) and the fact that this has become part of an 'alternative' counter cultural thing that's a bit controversial in a way that bollocks about scroungers isn't, like a lot of people who believe in this seem to have views that are more associated with 'the left' the shit left but anyway. and it seems to be anti establishment in a way that going on about benefits isnt


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 31, 2013)

Gesture of solidarity with racist roofer. What did the racist roofer _actually _mean when he engaged in a 30 year series of racist and ant-semitic actions? How can we be sure it's not interest groups behind the scenes stirring shit?







I really cannot believe the dickery behind some of the posts (liam/dexter/CR) on this thread. If you can't spot it now, out in the open and on the streets, then retire.


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 31, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> I would certainly say it has increased, and I find it really frightening. I don't think thinking it has is part of some Zionist attempt to mislead people, I'm definitely not a zionist, I suspect its a combination of scapegoating for the financial crisis (the same reason there are increasingly unsympathetic attitudes to 'welfare' etc) and the fact that this has become part of an 'alternative' counter cultural thing that's a bit controversial in a way that bollocks about scroungers isn't, like a lot of people who believe in this seem to have views that are more associated with 'the left' the shit left but anyway. and it seems to be anti establishment in a way that going on about benefits isnt


There was a thread here i think about 5 years ago on this question. I said that it didn't exist. I was wrong. Or at least it exists again. (Will try and find it in a sec)


----------



## Sasaferrato (Dec 31, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> I see that Dexter has shat all over his own shoes again.  _Plus ça_ fucking _change_....



I know Dexter IRL. He works in the same place as me. He is not an anti-Semite.


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 31, 2013)

Sasaferrato said:


> I know Dexter IRL. He works in the same place as me. He is not an anti-Semite.


No one is. Ever. They just think things and do things.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Dec 31, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> Political 'anti Zionism' lol, is it wrong that I increasingly view someone describing themselves as that (as opposed to marxist, anarchist etc all of whom have anti Zionist views) with a slight degree of suspicion



I have viewed these people with suspicion for decades. Too often Anti-Zionist = Jew hater.


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 31, 2013)

Sasaferrato said:


> I have viewed these people with suspicion for decades. Too often Anti-Zionist = Jew hater.


Yes, you're the sort of idiot that gives them cover. You're simply the other side of the anti-semitic coin.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 31, 2013)

Sasaferrato said:


> I know Dexter IRL. He works in the same place as me. He is not an anti-Semite.



I haven't claimed that he's an anti-Semite.  I've stated that he's yet again shat on his own shoes.
How has he done that? By (as usual) wading in and making a pretty stupid statement that claimed that someone on the thread had called Anelka/compared Anelka to a Nazi.  He then went to great and abusive lengths to not take ownership of what he'd said.


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 31, 2013)

Sasaferrato said:


> I have viewed these people with suspicion for decades. Too often Anti-Zionist = Jew hater.



Its a shame because there are people in the PSC etc and doing anti occupation stuff in Israel which is really important. I was in the PSC for a couple of years, there are anti semites involved but they aren't all scum, they aren't all racist wankers, many are dedicated and sincere people with good politics. What I mean is when someone makes anti Zionism the entire focus of their politics and don't give a shit about anything else, or not enough to do anything about it. I oppose Zionism, I don't think I'm a Jew hater in fact I suspect I'm more involved in the Jewish community here than many people here and ironically over the last few years since 'cast lead' etc there is much less of a taboo about criticising Israel than what there used to be. Most Jewish people don't agree with what happens in Israel and unfortunately who benefits from this increase in racism etc is actually the Israeli state.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 31, 2013)

Sasaferrato said:


> I have viewed these people with suspicion for decades. Too often Anti-Zionist = Jew hater.



Even when the anti-Zionists are Jews?
I know you cling tightly to your Jewish heritage, but you *don't* live it.  Some of us do, and our opposition to nationalist Zionism is based on our actual experiences of the effect of that Zionism, not on our 2nd-hand perceptions.


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 31, 2013)

And other states too of course. Just in case it looked like..well


----------



## Maurice Picarda (Dec 31, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Even when the anti-Zionists are Jews?
> I know you cling tightly to your Jewish heritage, but you *don't* live it.  Some of us do, and our opposition to nationalist Zionism is based on our actual experiences of the effect of that Zionism, not on our 2nd-hand perceptions.



He's not saying that all anti-zionists are anti-semites; he's saying that "too often, they are". Which is unarguable.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Dec 31, 2013)

I must say this whole business astonished me. Like most people, I had never heard of 'La Quenelle'. 

On reading about it's originator, it rapidly becomes apparent that it is an anti-Semitic gesture. One cannot know with absolute certainty that this was the intent of the originator, but it becomes apparent that it is an anti-Semitic gesture. The evidence supplied by You Tube is overwhelming. 

Jews have have no more amnesty from criticism than anyone else, but when criticism morphs into hate crime, then that is another matter. 

I don't have a problem with Holocaust deniers. They are patently wrong, and the historical facts do not support their case. They are 'flat earthers' more deserving of derision than punishment. I am a firm believer that everyone is entitled to their view, _as long as that view is confined to thought. _When those thoughts become deeds, a line is crossed and the legislature becomes involved. 

Anelka is guilty, but of what exactly? Even a full blown Nazi salute is not necessarily an offence in Britain, and proving that Anelka is guilty of an offence under UK law is impossible.

This is something that both government and the FA need to ponder over, and decide what action needs to be taken to prevent a recurrence.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Dec 31, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Even when the anti-Zionists are Jews?
> I know you cling tightly to your Jewish heritage, but you *don't* live it.  Some of us do, and our opposition to nationalist Zionism is based on our actual experiences of the effect of that Zionism, not on our 2nd-hand perceptions.



Fair point.


----------



## DexterTCN (Dec 31, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> DexterTCN - you've been posting very recently. Do you want to re-visit your comments? Or are you going to bottle it?


My comments stand.  I require more than a tabloid headline and some up-their-own-arses urbanites to convince me that Anelka is 'guilty' of anything.

I tend not to get involved once all the usual suspects troop in, it's pointless.

I'm not willing to participate in the customary shit-throwing fest that these threads rapidly become, I have no compulsion to argue with people I don't like.

I would add that what I said was that the tabloid link in the OP mentioned nazis, if VP wants to claim I accused an urbanite of being a nazi he should report it.  Post #18


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 31, 2013)

happie chappie said:


> If you mean a riot in the form of anti-Semitic love-in you could well be right.



How many West Ham fans are anti-Semites, then?


----------



## Sasaferrato (Dec 31, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> I haven't claimed that he's an anti-Semite.  I've stated that he's yet again shat on his own shoes.
> How has he done that? By (as usual) wading in and making a pretty stupid statement that claimed that someone on the thread had called Anelka/compared Anelka to a Nazi.  He then went to great and abusive lengths to not take ownership of what he'd said.



Absolutely, his point was clumsily made, and open to many levels of misinterpretation.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 31, 2013)

happie chappie said:


> From the people who gave us the "I'd rather be a Paki than a Yid" ditty.



You mean the variant of the late '60s/early '70s "I'd rather be a Paki than a scouse" that Man U supporters invented?  The variant that refers solely to "the Yids", ie.e. Tottenham Hotspur supporters?

Get a fucking grip.


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 31, 2013)

DexterTCN said:


> My comments stand.  I require more than a tabloid headline and some up-their-own-arses urbanites to convince me that Anelka is 'guilty' of anything.
> 
> I tend not to get involved once all the usual suspects troop in, it's pointless.
> 
> ...






			
				dexter said:
			
		

> Secondly, the article does make that connection. As do a few others, which I took the time to read last night. So I didn't just read it, I thought about it as well. My conclusion? Inconclusive.
> 
> Thirdly...for me, I need more than tabloid outrage as convincing evidence of ....anything.



Not bothered reading anymore? Not came to any conclusions? Yep, useful idiot it is.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 31, 2013)

caleb said:


> Was looking at some cunt who is an Nus delegate for my SU on twitter and he defended Anelka on the grounds it was a political, anti-Zionist act.



If Anelka wanted to make an anti-Zionist statement, he could have pissed on a picture of Fat Benny Netanyahu, or wore a T-shirt with Fat Benny's visage on it, underscored with the words "Zionist fuckwit". They'd have been much more apt, and more correctly anti-Zionist.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 31, 2013)

caleb said:


> It seems to me the logic of the perfectly fair trope that anti-Zionism is not inherently antisemitic gets turned into '... Anti-Zionism is never antisemitic'. This in turn leads people who think like that to construct a conspiracy around the use of the term... As a Jewish plot to smear their politics.



Those who claim that anti-Zionism is *never* anti-Semitic are idiots.  Of course anti-Zionism *CAN* be used as a tool for promoting anti-Semitism, and of course anti-Zionism *IS* used as a tool for promoting anti-Semitism.  The issue requires people to look beyond the statements made w/r/t to anti-Zionism, to the motive and context in which the statements are made.


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 31, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Those who claim that anti-Zionism is *never* anti-Semitic are idiots.  Of course anti-Zionism *CAN* be used as a tool for promoting anti-Semitism, and of course anti-Zionism *IS* used as a tool for promoting anti-Semitism.  The issue requires people to look beyond the statements made w/r/t to anti-Zionism, to the motive and context in which the statements are made.



Lots of them about though


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 31, 2013)

goldenecitrone said:


> Bernard Manning was a racist. That's the similarity, dimwit. Anelka should choose his friends more carefully.



Manning never explicitly promoted a politics of racism.  If anything, he went out of his way to make clear that his issues were his own.  He even used to make jokes about Martin Webster, along the lines of "some fucking Aryan, a bloke who likes kids".


----------



## J Ed (Dec 31, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Those who claim that anti-Zionism is *never* anti-Semitic are idiots.  Of course anti-Zionism *CAN* be used as a tool for promoting anti-Semitism, and of course anti-Zionism *IS* used as a tool for promoting anti-Semitism.  The issue requires people to look beyond the statements made w/r/t to anti-Zionism, to the motive and context in which the statements are made.



Yes but this requires people to look beyond the my team good their team bad mentality. Many seem to struggle with that.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 31, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> Lots of them about though



Or seems like a lot, because there's a lot of noise made about it, IYSWIM.


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 31, 2013)

anti-zionism has to be the stupidest thing to adopt as _world view_. It's almost anti-semitic in itself. Anti-capitalism = fine. Explains how the world works, suggests _total _answers. If you think that's comparable to anti-zionism, that a small group of jews running one state and pulling the strings in others is how the world works, then, you're already fucked.

Anti-zionism as part of a rejection of a) a state (or how it's run in certain cases) or b) the ideology  - as part of a wider critique = fine. _As that _wider critique = dodgy.


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 31, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Manning never explicitly promoted a politics of racism.  If anything, he went out of his way to make clear that his issues were his own.  He even used to make jokes about Martin Webster, along the lines of "some fucking Aryan, a bloke who likes kids".



Don't tell Frances ffs


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 31, 2013)

_It's alright mate, i'm an anti-zionist._


----------



## Favelado (Dec 31, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> You mean the variant of the late '60s/early '70s "I'd rather be a Paki than a scouse" that Man U supporters invented?  The variant that refers solely to "the Yids", ie.e. Tottenham Hotspur supporters?
> 
> Get a fucking grip.



West Ham fans sang the Scouse variant with gusto too didn't they?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 31, 2013)

J Ed said:


> Yes but this requires people to look beyond the my team good their team bad mentality. Many seem to struggle with that.


<derail>
It's kind of a bugbear with me that people are not taught to think critically during their secondary school years.</derail>


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 31, 2013)

Favelado said:


> West Ham fans sang the Scouse variant with gusto too didn't they?



Yes, as did fans from just about every team Liverpool played for about 30 years.
What's your point?


----------



## goldenecitrone (Dec 31, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Manning never explicitly promoted a politics of racism.  If anything, he went out of his way to make clear that his issues were his own.  He even used to make jokes about Martin Webster, along the lines of "some fucking Aryan, a bloke who likes kids".



I've already updated my comparison to Manning crossed with Goebbels. Better?


----------



## Favelado (Dec 31, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Yes, as did fans from just about every team Liverpool played for about 30 years.
> What's your point?



It was no more than a question. No agenda behind it. I once met a West Ham fan who said it had been sung a lot at Upton Park.


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 31, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Or seems like a lot, because there's a lot of noise made about it, IYSWIM.



Yeah, I'm also going on what I've seen myself though. Its annoying how these people ascribe criticisms of their politics to what 'Zionists' have said about it, ie they assume that people disagreeing is because of some hasbara campaign not because of what people have seen themselves, its like that guy saying the other day that I believed all the bad stuff about Scientology because I'd read it in the tabloid media whereas I've not actually read a newspaper properly in years.


----------



## Orang Utan (Dec 31, 2013)

Anelka's Quennelle sounds like a tiny but essential part of the human anatomy.
Like Shatner's Bassoon.


----------



## happie chappie (Dec 31, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> You mean the variant of the late '60s/early '70s "I'd rather be a Paki than a scouse" that Man U supporters invented?  The variant that refers solely to "the Yids", ie.e. Tottenham Hotspur supporters?
> 
> Get a fucking grip.



I’m not sure I need to get a grip of anything thank you.

My reference to the “I’d rather be a Paki than a Yid” was in response to CR post where he said that if WHU fans knew what Anelka was doing there would be “a riot”.

I can’t speak for him but my interpretation of his comment was that there would be an adverse reaction from WHU fans. I merely pointed out that this would be highly unlikely.

By the way, do you have any proof it was Man Utd fans who invented “I’d rather be a Paki than a Scouse” in the 1960s?


----------



## caleb (Dec 31, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Those who claim that anti-Zionism is *never* anti-Semitic are idiots.  Of course anti-Zionism *CAN* be used as a tool for promoting anti-Semitism, and of course anti-Zionism *IS* used as a tool for promoting anti-Semitism.  The issue requires people to look beyond the statements made w/r/t to anti-Zionism, to the motive and context in which the statements are made.



I've never encountered anybody say explicitly anti-Zionism cannot be antisemitic, it's just a general attitude I sense - "well, whatever we do we'll be called as antisemitic... so antisemitism is just a smear that Zionists use against us". I remember somebody saying to me that they've been called antisemitic so much as a result of their pro-Palestinian activism that they no longer take the charge seriously... and I think that's very dodgy territory to be on, it's basically writing away antisemitism and ultimately it becomes a sort of mirrored antisemitism in and of itself, to believe that "antisemitic" is merely a smear used against you, you have to construct a conspiracy around those people you see using the word as a smear and their reasons for doing so.


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 31, 2013)

caleb said:


> I've never encountered anybody say explicitly anti-Zionism cannot be antisemitic, it's just a general attitude I sense - "well, whatever we do we'll be called as antisemitic... so antisemitism is just a smear that Zionists use against us". I remember somebody saying to me that they've been called antisemitic so much as a result of their pro-Palestinian activism that they no longer take the charge seriously... and I think that's very dodgy territory to be on, it's basically writing away antisemitism and ultimately it becomes a sort of mirrored antisemitism in and of itself, to believe that "antisemitic" is merely a smear used against you, you have to construct a conspiracy around those people you see using the word as a smear and their reasons for doing so.



Oh my god, this.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 31, 2013)

Silas Loom said:


> Why can't you admit that you jumped to a wrong and unpleasant conclusion and apologise properly?



Because he's phil.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 31, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> Its a shame because there are people in the PSC etc and doing anti occupation stuff in Israel which is really important. I was in the PSC for a couple of years, there are anti semites involved but they aren't all scum, they aren't all racist wankers, many are dedicated and sincere people with good politics. What I mean is when someone makes anti Zionism the entire focus of their politics and don't give a shit about anything else, or not enough to do anything about it. I oppose Zionism, I don't think I'm a Jew hater in fact I suspect I'm more involved in the Jewish community here than many people here and ironically over the last few years since 'cast lead' etc there is much less of a taboo about criticising Israel than what there used to be. Most Jewish people don't agree with what happens in Israel and unfortunately who benefits from this increase in racism etc is actually the Israeli state.



The problem for PSC being that a relative handful of wankers have made operations by the majority much harder.  And how has it been dealt with? In some cases with the anti-Semites being accused of being Zionist _agents provocateurs_ by PSC members!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 31, 2013)

DexterTCN said:


> My comments stand.  I require more than a tabloid headline and some up-their-own-arses urbanites to convince me that Anelka is 'guilty' of anything.
> 
> I tend not to get involved once all the usual suspects troop in, it's pointless.
> 
> ...



Were you born stupid, or are you just wilfully so?
I haven't said anything about you accusing an Urbanite of being a Nazi, you fuckwit.

Christ but you're a fucking dimwit twat! Learn to fucking read!!


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 31, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> The problem for PSC being that a relative handful of wankers have made operations by the majority much harder.  And how has it been dealt with? In some cases with the anti-Semites being accused of being Zionist _agents provocateurs_ by PSC members!



I don't have any more involvement with psc for that reason. I might go on a big demo or sign a petition but that's it. There are some good people involved but anti-semitism doesn't usually get challenged very much. Its a shame mind you. There are some good people involved (and the anti Semites were often the ones who wanted to talk about themselves and not do anything practical)


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 31, 2013)

I think some people didn't challenge them as they suspected it wouldn't be worth it. Interestingly the people of Palestinian descent that were in the group didn't really come out with that stuff at all And usually had good politics that I could tell, not really that that shows anything though.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 31, 2013)

Silas Loom said:


> He's not saying that all anti-zionists are anti-semites; he's saying that "too often, they are". Which is unarguable.



How do you measure "too often"?  Most of the anti-Zionists I've met and/or known (including in my own family) are Jews who are anti-Zionist for a complex of reasons around disagreeing with the *principles* (if you can call them that) of Herzl-ite Zionism; with the land theft, collective punishment (learned from the Mandate authorities, as well as from the Nazis) and murder practiced by the state of Israel and its antecedent organisations, and with the idea that the subjugation of an "alien" culture is ever a good idea.  I grew up going to synagogues where otherwise-intelligent people spoke of "greater Israel" as though it had no human cost.  I love my people, but I loath how some use the cloak of our culture to mask their own prejudices - or worse, don't believe that their prejudices are prejudices at all, because they can cite a historical "justification" for "repossessing" the ancient kingdoms of Judea and Samaria. 
I utterly agree that some anti-Zionists are anti-Semites masking their anti-Semitism, but they're generally easily fitered from genuine anti-Zionists because of what they say, and the context within which they say it, by anyone who can be arsed to do so.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 31, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> anti-zionism has to be the stupidest thing to adopt as _world view_. It's almost anti-semitic in itself. Anti-capitalism = fine. Explains how the world works, suggests _total _answers. If you think that's comparable to anti-zionism, that a small group of jews running one state and pulling the strings in others is how the world works, then, you're already fucked.
> 
> Anti-zionism as part of a rejection of a) a state (or how it's run in certain cases) or b) the ideology  - as part of a wider critique = fine. _As that _wider critique = dodgy.



Absolutely. My anti-Zionism extends as far as the actions of a state whose governance is informed through reference to that ideology, and are excused through reference to that ideology. While I might occasionally decry actions elsewhere as assisted by an informal "Jewish lobby", I don't believe such lobbies are supranational and take orders from the state of Israel, my opinion is that informal interest groups lobby in their own and similar interests.  That's the nature" of capitalism, as well as of what the merchant classes used to call "enlighted self-interest".


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## frogwoman (Dec 31, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> How do you measure "too often"?  Most of the anti-Zionists I've met and/or known (including in my own family) are Jews who are anti-Zionist for a complex of reasons around disagreeing with the *principles* (if you can call them that) of Herzl-ite Zionism; with the land theft, collective punishment (learned from the Mandate authorities, as well as from the Nazis) and murder practiced by the state of Israel and its antecedent organisations, and with the idea that the subjugation of an "alien" culture is ever a good idea.  I grew up going to synagogues where otherwise-intelligent people spoke of "greater Israel" as though it had no human cost.  I love my people, but I loath how some use the cloak of our culture to mask their own prejudices - or worse, don't believe that their prejudices are prejudices at all, because they can cite a historical "justification" for "repossessing" the ancient kingdoms of Judea and Samaria.
> I utterly agree that some anti-Zionists are anti-Semites masking their anti-Semitism, but they're generally easily fitered from genuine anti-Zionists because of what they say, and the context within which they say it, by anyone who can be arsed to do so.



Generally speaking, I agree 

However, one of the problems with organizations like psc, JfJfP etc is that very frequently some of their members want to give real anti Semites the benefit of the doubt even where they disagree with them and because as Caleb rightly says they've got themselves into a situation where they don't take the idea of anti-semitism seriously any more even when they aren't personally prejudiced themselves. I ended up giving people the benefit of the doubt because they'd done some good in other ways and I was able to like ignore my instincts, also because other people. I liked thought they were sound

Also its possible to be a Zionist and antisemitic at the same time, some people including members of my family manage it quite well


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 31, 2013)

happie chappie said:


> I’m not sure I need to get a grip of anything thank you.
> 
> My reference to the “I’d rather be a Paki than a Yid” was in response to CR post where he said that if WHU fans knew what Anelka was doing there would be “a riot”.
> 
> I can’t speak for him but my interpretation of his comment was that there would be an adverse reaction from WHU fans. I merely pointed out that this would be highly unlikely.



So why would it be highly unlikely? Are we all good fascists who'd accept Anelka's salute in good heart, rather than want to rip him a new arsehole?



> By the way, do you have any proof it was Man Utd fans who invented “I’d rather be a Paki than a Scouse” in the 1960s?



Beyond the fact that my dad heard it around '71 at a Liverpool/Man U game he attended while docked there?  No.


----------



## Fedayn (Dec 31, 2013)

DexterTCN said:


> My comments stand.  I require more than a tabloid headline and some up-their-own-arses urbanites to convince me that Anelka is 'guilty' of anything.
> 
> I tend not to get involved once all the usual suspects troop in, it's pointless.
> 
> ...



You're a fucking idiot, carry on back-slapping yourself. The evidence was provided without any recourse to tabloidese/tabloidesque claims. The only shit round here is the stuff you wade in daily.


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 31, 2013)

Thought it was Chelsea with the major fash following, although I do know a Chelsea fan who is a socialist


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## Fedayn (Dec 31, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> Thought it was Chelsea with the major fash following, although I do know a Chelsea fan who is a socialist



Many years ago Chelsea had a notable C18/fash following. They also had/have a large W London w/c black support and a lot of Irish/2nd gen irish supporters from Kilburn. It was never as simple as some like to claim. I know a fair few Chelsea fans on the political left. Charlie Sergeant the fat C18 'top boy' was an Arsenal fan.


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 31, 2013)

Fedayn said:


> Many years ago Chelsea had a notable C18/fash following. They also had/have a large W London w/c black support and a lot of Irish/2nd gen irish supporters from Kilburn. It was never as simple as some like to claim. I know a fair few Chelsea fans on the political left. Charlie Sergeant the fat C18 'top boy' was an Arsenal fan.



I know a spurs fan who's a racist prick, from some of the things he's said wouldn't surprise me if antisemitic as well, I wasn't suggesting all Chelsea fans are racist - good to see you back BTW


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## IC3D (Dec 31, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> So why would it be highly unlikely? Are we all good fascists who'd accept Anelka's salute in good heart, rather than want to rip him a new arsehole?



West Ham furious at anti semitism though? you live and learn.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 31, 2013)

IC3D said:


> West Ham furious at anti semitism though? you live and learn.



At one time we had a damn sight more Jewish supporters than Spurs did.  We're hardly Mosleyites!


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 31, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> How do you measure "too often"?  Most of the anti-Zionists I've met and/or known (including in my own family) are Jews who are anti-Zionist for a complex of reasons around disagreeing with the *principles* (if you can call them that) of Herzl-ite Zionism; with the land theft, collective punishment (learned from the Mandate authorities, as well as from the Nazis) and murder practiced by the state of Israel and its antecedent organisations, and with the idea that the subjugation of an "alien" culture is ever a good idea.  I grew up going to synagogues where otherwise-intelligent people spoke of "greater Israel" as though it had no human cost.  I love my people, but I loath how some use the cloak of our culture to mask their own prejudices - or worse, don't believe that their prejudices are prejudices at all, because they can cite a historical "justification" for "repossessing" the ancient kingdoms of Judea and Samaria.
> I utterly agree that some anti-Zionists are anti-Semites masking their anti-Semitism, but they're generally easily fitered from genuine anti-Zionists because of what they say, and the context within which they say it, by anyone who can be arsed to do so.



I think that within the Jewish community things have changed a lot in the last couple of years, it is still the case that many people would say they were Zionists meaning they support Israel's to  exist, but they might actually seriously oppose what its government does. Also there are lots of Israelis living in the country from a wide range of backgrounds and it's difficult for the Israeli government to say that it's like some paradise these days.


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 31, 2013)

IC3D said:


> West Ham furious at anti semitism though? you live and learn.


Oh come on, let's not eh? Serious issue here.


----------



## IC3D (Dec 31, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> At one time we had a damn sight more Jewish supporters than Spurs did.  We're hardly Mosleyites!


Well maybe then, a N Ldn Jewish mate has been supporting for years, god knows why 

ETA sorry BA


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 31, 2013)

Also Zionism is one of those words that means whatever you want it to mean.


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## redsquirrel (Dec 31, 2013)

DexterTCN said:


> My comments stand.  I require more than a tabloid headline and some up-their-own-arses urbanites to convince me that Anelka is 'guilty' of anything.
> 
> I tend not to get involved once all the usual suspects troop in, it's pointless.
> 
> ...


You utter moron. No scratch that, your crap is worse than simply stupidity. If you can't/won't see the anti-semitic nature of this action then you're scum.


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 31, 2013)

Anelka - i think you're racist _because_ you're anti-semitic. Anti-racist racism. Fuck off, you got caught.


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## butchersapron (Dec 31, 2013)

bottler said:
			
		

> I'm not willing to participate in the customary shit-throwing fest that these threads rapidly become, I have no compulsion to argue with people I don't like.


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 31, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Anelka - i think you're racist _because_ you're anti-semitic. Anti-racist racism. Fuck off, you got caught.



So the scum who withheld wages from people where I used to work were actually committed anti racists fighting against the establishment, same with the manager who bullied my mate, and the bloke who came up to us on a blockade ofvshell we did a few years ago and demanded to know why we weren't doing anything about the Jews, nope all committed anti-racist anticapitalist fighters.


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 31, 2013)

The nutters on the street trying to harangue people into converting to Christianity by saying that Jews killed Jesus, homosexuality is a sin etc, all committed Marxist fighters as well. Great, where do I sign up?


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 31, 2013)

I am so not  fascist


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## phildwyer (Dec 31, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> No one is. Ever. They just think things and do things.



Actually I think you'll find the vast majority of anti-semites are perfectly overt.

There's little point in it otherwise.


----------



## phildwyer (Dec 31, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Those who claim that anti-Zionism is *never* anti-Semitic are idiots.  Of course anti-Zionism *CAN* be used as a tool for promoting anti-Semitism, and of course anti-Zionism *IS* used as a tool for promoting anti-Semitism.



That is itself a powerful anti-Zionist argument.


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 31, 2013)

phildwyer said:


> Actually I think you'll find the vast majority of anti-semites are perfectly overt.
> 
> There's little point in it otherwise.


Pretty much not interested. Good luck to you and yours. But, Nah, Not now. Maybe not ever. We'll see. Cheers then.


----------



## phildwyer (Dec 31, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> I am so not  fascist



True enough.  You share a surprising number positions in common with fascists though.  I have to say that I was taken aback to hear your lines on crime, drugs, prostitution, Lee Rigby etc for example.

These are positions that are shared by the extreme left and the extreme right, but not by the middle.  Not unlike whatever crap Anelka is on about in fact.

I am beginning to suspect that the extremes have more in common with each other than either does with the middle.


----------



## phildwyer (Dec 31, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Pretty much not interested. Good luck to you and yours.



Mutual, except for the first bit.


----------



## goldenecitrone (Dec 31, 2013)

phildwyer said:


> I am beginning to suspect that the extremes have more in common with each other than either does with the middle.



The extreme left does seem to attract a fair few who flirted with far right ideas in their youth and are now doing penance for their youthful stupidity.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 31, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> Also Zionism is one of those words that means whatever you want it to mean.



Not helped by the fact that some Zionists aren't honest about which faction of the tradition they come from, which leads others to assume that:
a) All Zionists and Zionisms are identical, and
b) Expressions of anti-Zionism refer to *any* manifestation of Zionism, when mostly what is referred to by *Jewish* anti-Zionists is the nationalist Zionisms practiced by the state of Israel and its precursor organisations.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 31, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> So the scum who withheld wages from people where I used to work were actually committed anti racists fighting against the establishment, same with the manager who bullied my mate, and the bloke who came up to us on a blockade ofvshell we did a few years ago and demanded to know why we weren't doing anything about the Jews, nope all committed anti-racist anticapitalist fighters.



So many fuckwads who don't grasp that anti-racism means being against *all* manifestations of racism (with "racism" obviously used here as a broad category encompassing race *and* culture).
As for anti-capitalism, modern anti-capitalism has always had an outriding band of conspiraloon fuckspuds who equate capitalism and capital with Jews, and see anti-capitalism as a good mask, or even a good equivalence for their anti-Semitic loonspuddery.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 31, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> The nutters on the street trying to harangue people into converting to Christianity by saying that Jews killed Jesus, homosexuality is a sin etc, all committed Marxist fighters as well. Great, where do I sign up?



TBF though, any Marxist trying to convert people to Christianity, isn't a Marxist, they're a dick pretending to be a Marxist.


----------



## phildwyer (Dec 31, 2013)

goldenecitrone said:


> The extreme left does seem to attract a fair few who flirted with far right ideas in their youth and are now doing penance for their youthful stupidity.



Anti-semitism is the socialism of fools.


----------



## DotCommunist (Dec 31, 2013)

phildwyer said:


> Anti-semitism is* the socialism of fools.*




there is a book with that title- author passed on three years ago iirc...


----------



## phildwyer (Dec 31, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> there is a book with that title- author passed on three years ago iirc...



Michael Lerner.

Quote is from ether Bebel or Sartre.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Dec 31, 2013)

goldenecitrone said:


> The extreme left does seem to attract a fair few who flirted with far right ideas in their youth and are now doing penance for their youthful stupidity.



There is no functional difference between extreme left and extreme right. Stalin and Hitler were two sides of the same repressive and murderous coin.


----------



## Buckaroo (Dec 31, 2013)

It's not just at the extremes though, some middle ground eco-hippies in anti-roads protests were happy to share a platform with the blood and soil brigade. 'They care about the environment too!'


----------



## savoloysam (Dec 31, 2013)

OK so black Muslims are "right wing extremists" now. What does that make the white Muslim and black hating fascists? What a load of fucking bollocks. This thread is just another guise for idiots to argue about the dick sizes. Fuck off.


----------



## DotCommunist (Dec 31, 2013)

Buckaroo said:


> It's not just at the extremes though, some middle ground eco-hippies in anti-roads protests were happy to share a platform with the blood and soil brigade. 'They care about the environment too!'




tbf there was an eco-conservatism streak within natsoc. frogwoman told me about this but when it explained it isn't that weird- sanctity of land nd blood etc.


----------



## Delroy Booth (Dec 31, 2013)

Sasaferrato said:


> There is no functional difference between extreme left and extreme right. Stalin and Hitler were two sides of the same repressive and murderous coin.



Are you calling me a fascist then?

Come tell us more about what else I do that's functionally identicle to the far-right. Holocaust denial perhaps? Any examples of the far left-wingers here engaging in this?


----------



## Sasaferrato (Dec 31, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Not helped by the fact that some Zionists aren't honest about which faction of the tradition they come from, which leads others to assume that:
> a) All Zionists and Zionisms are identical, and
> b) Expressions of anti-Zionism refer to *any* manifestation of Zionism, when mostly what is referred to by *Jewish* anti-Zionists is the nationalist Zionisms practiced by the state of Israel and its precursor organisations.



Perhaps a change in terminology is required. Describe Zionists as ultra-nationalist. Whenj one thinks about it, there are many similarities between the Zionists and the Nazis in their outlook.


----------



## J Ed (Dec 31, 2013)

savoloysam said:


> OK so black Muslims are "right wing extremists" now. What does that make the white Muslim and black hating fascists? What a load of fucking bollocks. This thread is just another guise for idiots to argue about the dick sizes. Fuck off.



Yes, this entire thread has been dedicated to talking about how being black and Muslim makes you a fascist. Great job.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Dec 31, 2013)

savoloysam said:


> OK so black Muslims are "right wing extremists" now. What does that make the white Muslim and black hating fascists? What a load of fucking bollocks. This thread is just another guise for idiots to argue about the dick sizes. Fuck off.



I've found a lot of the thread very informative tbf. Have you read it?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 31, 2013)

Sasaferrato said:


> There is no functional difference between extreme left and extreme right. Stalin and Hitler were two sides of the same repressive and murderous coin.



Stalin and Hitler were both totalitarian.  Their respective positions as leaders of regimes, one of which was founded on left-wing principles, the other on right-wing principles, is immaterial.  Swap the pair of them, and they'd both have arrived at the same point of totalitarianism, because they were both the sum of their influences and personal prejudices and insecurities.
There's plenty of functional difference between the extremes of left and right, and waving examples of totalitarian regimes does nothing to illuminate the issue, it just shows the waver up as someone who should perhaps sit and have a bit of a think.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 31, 2013)

Buckaroo said:


> It's not just at the extremes though, some middle ground eco-hippies in anti-roads protests were happy to share a platform with the blood and soil brigade. 'They care about the environment too!'



TBF, there's been an ongoing issue of interaction between European "green" and hard-right politics for over a hundred years now. "Green fascist" is a pretty old charge.


----------



## caleb (Dec 31, 2013)

http://you-dont-look-anti-semitic.blogspot.co.uk


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## Delroy Booth (Dec 31, 2013)

What he's saying is there's "no functional difference" so we do the exact same things as the far-right. Y'know like holocaust denial or racist murders. 

On the level of everyday experience what Sass is saying is what we do here is no different in any way to what the far-right do - and although we might claim to be opposed to racism and inequality but functionally we are just as racist and supporting of authoritarian conversativism and propping up the traditional capitalist power structures as they are.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 31, 2013)

savoloysam said:


> OK so black Muslims are "right wing extremists" now. What does that make the white Muslim and black hating fascists? What a load of fucking bollocks. This thread is just another guise for idiots to argue about the dick sizes. Fuck off.



No. Here, I'll try and make it simple for you:

Black Muslims *can be* anti-Semites and even "rightwing extremists".

See, not difficult is it, you twat!


----------



## Sasaferrato (Dec 31, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Stalin and Hitler were both totalitarian.  Their respective positions as leaders of regimes, one of which was founded on left-wing principles, the other on right-wing principles, is immaterial.  Swap the pair of them, and they'd both have arrived at the same point of totalitarianism, because they were both the sum of their influences and personal prejudices and insecurities.
> There's plenty of functional difference between the extremes of left and right, and waving examples of totalitarian regimes does nothing to illuminate the issue, it just shows the waver up as someone who should perhaps sit and have a bit of a think.



Ah, but you've always been a left wing apologist... 

Can you name one country that has been hard left or hard right that hasn't been a virtual dictatorship? Start by looking at countries with 'Democratic' or 'People's' in their name.


----------



## Delroy Booth (Dec 31, 2013)

Fucking hell there's phil dwyer (back from the Undying Lands) Sass and Dexter and not to mention LiamO and Casually Red, all on the same thread here. 

There's really no hope for anything worthwhile to come of this (and pretty much any other) thread on the forum.


----------



## DotCommunist (Dec 31, 2013)

Delroy Booth said:


> What he's saying is there's "no functional difference" so we do the exact same things as the far-right. Y'know like holocaust denial or racist murders.
> 
> On the level of everyday experience what Sass is saying is what we do here is no different in any way to what the far-right do - and although we might claim to be opposed to racism and inequality but functionally we are just as racist and supporting of authoritarian conversativism and propping up the traditional capitalist power structures as they are.



standard centre right mantra ennit? only fiscal conservatism and limited social liberalism is sane, everything else is murderous loonbat


----------



## Maurice Picarda (Dec 31, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> standard centre right mantra ennit? only fiscal conservatism and limited social liberalism is sane, everything else is murderous loonbat



Well, it is. Although the mantra is usually used against authoritarians, and libertarians are even worse.


----------



## DotCommunist (Dec 31, 2013)

Silas Loom said:


> Well, it is.




shut up whig


----------



## Delroy Booth (Dec 31, 2013)

Sasaferrato said:


> Ah, but you've always been a left wing apologist...
> 
> Can you name one country that has been hard left or hard right that hasn't been a virtual dictatorship? Start by looking at countries with 'Democratic' or 'People's' in their name.



No, can you defend your previous comments where you compared me (a far-left extremist) with the fascists. Claimed that there's "no functional difference" between me and them infact. 

Any chance you could back up that smear with anything concrete you monumental fuckwit?


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 31, 2013)

Anti-establishmentism is the way the rich use power.


----------



## Buckaroo (Dec 31, 2013)

Sasaferrato said:


> Ah, but you've always been a left wing apologist...
> 
> Can you name one country that has been hard left or hard right that hasn't been a virtual dictatorship? Start by looking at countries with 'Democratic' or 'People's' in their name.



North Korea aka The People's Democratic Republic.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 31, 2013)

Sasaferrato said:


> Perhaps a change in terminology is required. Describe Zionists as ultra-nationalist. Whenj one thinks about it, there are many similarities between the Zionists and the Nazis in their outlook.



There are many similarities between *all* ultra-nationalisms.
In the case of Zionism, though, I distinguish "nationalist Zionism" because it's the dominant political force and political *motivation* in the state of Israel (almost the entire political spectrum operates on the premise of the centrality of the security and perpetuation of the Zionist state as *the* essential political practice within the state of Israel).
Prior to the formation of the state of Israel, other Zionisms existed. Socialist and co-operative Zionisms for example, that weren't centred around the idea of a separate Jeiwsh state, but merely on living in the "homeland" and working the soil in co-operation with the other inhabitants, regardless of their race/ethnicity/culture.


----------



## DotCommunist (Dec 31, 2013)

Buckaroo said:


> North Korea aka The People's Democratic Republic.




Democratic Peoples Rebuplic of North Korea


----------



## phildwyer (Dec 31, 2013)

Delroy Booth said:


> Are you calling me a fascist then?
> 
> Come tell us more about what else I do that's functionally identicle to the far-right. Holocaust denial perhaps? Any examples of the far left-wingers here engaging in this?



I can't recall if you're one of them, but plenty of _soi disant _Left-wingers here support draconian law'n'order policies, vigilantism, the police lecturing in schools etc.


----------



## Delroy Booth (Dec 31, 2013)

Right Dexter hasn't bottled it, Dexter hates Jews and Israel and supports anyone who likes to have a go at the Jews. He literally thinks people who critisize George Galloway do so because they're part of the Zionist agenda/JIDF.

Casually Red is a fucking idiot who's not an anti-imperialist, socialist or left-winger of any kind. He's a bigoted nationalist gobshite who would be in the Tory party had he been born by some fluke of circumstance over this side of the water. He just so happens to be born in a country where the dominant nationalism pays lip-service to anti-imperialism but that's it.

LiamO I don't know I assume he's trolling but his poltics are just as shit and reactionary as CR and as a result brings nothing to this place.

Sass is a straightforward useful idiot type of conservative, the type of conservative who dismisses anything outside a narrow status quo as being murderous and totalitarian, without having the intelligence to realise that that the status quo to be maintained rests upon violence and murder and by excluding all extremism is also exhibiting a type of totalitarianism of it's own - which he's perfectly fine with.


----------



## Delroy Booth (Dec 31, 2013)

phildwyer said:


> I can't recall if you're one of them, but plenty of _soi disant _Left-wingers here support draconian law'n'order policies, vigilantism, the police lecturing in schools etc.



Fuck off Phil


----------



## phildwyer (Dec 31, 2013)

Delroy Booth said:


> Fuck off Phil



It seems everyone's wrong but you eh Delbert?


----------



## Delroy Booth (Dec 31, 2013)

phildwyer said:


> It seems everyone's wrong but you eh Delbert?



see post #379


----------



## phildwyer (Dec 31, 2013)

Delroy Booth said:


> Right Dexter hasn't bottled it, Dexter hates Jews and Israel and supports anyone who likes to have a go at the Jews. He literally thinks people who critisize George Galloway do so because they're part of the Zionist agenda/JIDF.
> 
> Casually Red is a fucking idiot who's not an anti-imperialist, socialist or left-winger of any kind. He's a bigoted nationalist gobshite who would be in the Tory party had he been born by some fluke of circumstance over this side of the water. He just so happens to be born in a country where the dominant nationalism pays lip-service to anti-imperialism but that's it.
> 
> ...



That's the most perfect example of the _ad hominem _fallacy I've seen in a while, fair play.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 31, 2013)

Sasaferrato said:


> Ah, but you've always been a left wing apologist...
> 
> Can you name one country that has been hard left or hard right that hasn't been a virtual dictatorship? Start by looking at countries with 'Democratic' or 'People's' in their name.



You're confusing rhetoric and labelling for practice. Don't go by names, go by actions.


----------



## phildwyer (Dec 31, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Anti-establishmentism is the way the rich use power.



I know it's NYE, but 4.30pm...?


----------



## Fedayn (Dec 31, 2013)

savoloysam said:


> OK so black Muslims are "right wing extremists" now. What does that make the white Muslim and black hating fascists? What a load of fucking bollocks. This thread is just another guise for idiots to argue about the dick sizes. Fuck off.



Dearie fucking me, another one howling at the moon.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 31, 2013)

Fedayn said:


> Dearie fucking me, another one howling at the moon.



As a baying Chihuahua, rather than a wolf, though.


----------



## phildwyer (Dec 31, 2013)

Delroy Booth said:


> No, can you defend your previous comments where you compared me (a far-left extremist) with the fascists. Claimed that there's "no functional difference" between me and them infact.
> 
> Any chance you could back up that smear with anything concrete you monumental fuckwit?



Your attitude to what you call "crime."

Your support of vigilante action against "pimps" and drug dealers.

Your advocacy of police participation in public education.

Your insistence that the murder of Lee Rigby was a simple criminal act like any other and should not be regarded as political or military in nature.

And to be perfectly frank quite large elements of your general attitude and demeanor.


----------



## DexterTCN (Dec 31, 2013)

Delroy Booth said:


> Right Dexter hasn't bottled it, Dexter hates Jews and Israel and supports anyone who likes to have a go at the Jews. He literally thinks people who critisize George Galloway do so because they're part of the Zionist agenda/JIDF.
> 
> Casually Red is a fucking idiot who's not an anti-imperialist, socialist or left-winger of any kind. He's a bigoted nationalist gobshite who would be in the Tory party had he been born by some fluke of circumstance over this side of the water. He just so happens to be born in a country where the dominant nationalism pays lip-service to anti-imperialism but that's it.
> 
> ...



The emptiest drums make the loudest noise.

I don't hate anyone, I haven't expressed hate for anyone.   You're full of it, seems to me. 

Sweeping statements of judgement on people, always negative.   You're in with the right people 

Didn't you go into a Simpsons thread (yes, the cartoon,) and try to start arguments with people because you don't like The Simpsons?

btw you should retract that 'hates Jews' bit.

But you most likely won't, that's the opinion I've formed of you from reading your posts.


----------



## Delroy Booth (Dec 31, 2013)

phildwyer said:


> Your attitude to what you call "crime."
> 
> Your support of vigilante action against "pimps" and drug dealers.
> 
> ...



see here


----------



## Delroy Booth (Dec 31, 2013)

DexterTCN said:


> The emptiest drums make the loudest noise.
> 
> I don't hate anyone, I haven't expressed hate for anyone.   You're full of it, seems to me.
> 
> ...



I'm not retracting fuck all you've made your choices you live with 'em. You apologise bag carry and defend this anti-semitism then expect worse.


----------



## phildwyer (Dec 31, 2013)

Delroy Booth said:


> Right Dexter hasn't bottled it



You have though.  Tosser that you are.


----------



## goldenecitrone (Dec 31, 2013)

I can feel this all building to a startling crescendo as we approach the dawn of a New Year. Thread, I salute you. (No, not like that, ffs!)


----------



## Fedayn (Dec 31, 2013)

A tag team now ruining the thread.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Dec 31, 2013)

<unsubscribes>


----------



## cantsin (Dec 31, 2013)

Delroy Booth said:


> Are you calling me a fascist then?
> 
> Come tell us more about what else I do that's functionally identicle to the far-right. Holocaust denial perhaps? Any examples of the far left-wingers here engaging in this?



Sassferato is genuninely not worth bothering with, an absolute waste of space on here (cldnt give a fuck what he's like in IRL, his sort normally keep themselves to themselves ime , or else are easily swerved)  trots out the same old tired right wing drivel as if it somehow contained some essential kernel of objective wisdom, and then folds like the melt he is when he gets properly found out ( eg : Hillsborough ). Needs to be ignored.


----------



## DexterTCN (Dec 31, 2013)

Delroy Booth said:


> I'm not retracting fuck all you've made your choices you live with 'em. You apologise bag carry and defend this anti-semitism then expect worse.



I'm not reporting the post where you said I hate Jews 

I will have a laugh about it though.   And at you and your little mob...defending the right to express hate and spit venom in the name of morality.

Oh...as to expecting worse from you...you are over-estimating the effect, if any, you're having.

Emptiest drum, loudest noise.  See?

You have a good New Year.


----------



## Buckaroo (Dec 31, 2013)

Sasaferrato said:


> There is no functional difference between extreme left and extreme right. Stalin and Hitler were two sides of the same repressive and murderous coin.



Women. Hitler wouldn't countenance women fighting in the army and working in factories. In the battle of Stalingrad, teenage girls fought off Panzer divisions and their mothers dug trenches in the ice and built tanks. It was the women what won it. And the Nazis took the piss and called them soldiers in skirts until they got the shit kicked out of them. Does that count as a functional difference?


----------



## phildwyer (Dec 31, 2013)

Buckaroo said:


> Women.



Animals too.


----------



## Delroy Booth (Dec 31, 2013)

DexterTCN said:


> I will have a laugh about it though.   And at you and your little mob...defending the right to express hate and spit venom in the name of morality.



How dare we call out the anti-semites in our midst. 

Take your bullshit to stormfront.


----------



## Buckaroo (Dec 31, 2013)

phildwyer said:


> Animals too.



Well dogs, trained  with anti tank grenade sticks on their heads, yes.

But they copped on to that early on.


----------



## phildwyer (Dec 31, 2013)

Buckaroo said:


> Well dogs, trained  with anti tank grenade sticks on their heads, yes.



Actually I meant Hitler being a vegetarian.


----------



## Fedayn (Dec 31, 2013)

DexterTCN said:


> And at you and your little mob...defending the right to express hate and spit venom in the name of morality.



What a pathetic, pathetic little creature you are, calling someone out claiming they are doing exactly what you are doing as regards anti-semites.


----------



## Buckaroo (Dec 31, 2013)

phildwyer said:


> Actually I meant Hitler being a vegetarian.



Ha! Yeah that was the clincher!


----------



## phildwyer (Dec 31, 2013)

Buckaroo said:


> Ha! Yeah that was the clincher!



Delbert's a vegetarian.


----------



## Buckaroo (Dec 31, 2013)

phildwyer said:


> Delbert's a vegetarian.



All vegetarians are Nazis. Now fuck off Dwyer. And a happy new year to you.


----------



## Delroy Booth (Dec 31, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> He's not. He believes in the shite he posts. Once he has more than 5 post then the thread is dwyered. This one will both quite soon.



Yup. Casually Red isn't a troll he's just scum who means every word of it.


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 31, 2013)

Im going out in a sec. Happy new year, unless you're fash or an anti semite in which case I hope you have a really fucking miserable one and wake up at 4 in the afternoon having puked all over your mum's sofa.


----------



## Casually Red (Dec 31, 2013)

elbows said:


> His abbreviated CV on several sites does seem to dwell on those areas, but when doing stuff like machine-translating his french wikipedia page, it seems he has done plenty of studies of the far-right too. Here is a not terribly interesting english example of him being interviewed about the National Front a few years back:
> 
> http://www.blog.schattenbericht.de/...-makes-ground-interview-with-jean-yves-camus/
> 
> ...



very good post, and thamks too for actually reading what I wrote


----------



## Casually Red (Dec 31, 2013)

FNG said:


> Unfortunately Dieudonnehe is Camus straw man made flesh,he is tying his very public anti-semitism to an anti-establishment ticket,whilst simultaneously forming electoral  pacts with Sorel and co. Smearing a vast swathe of people on the left in the process.
> http://nemesistv.info/video/7B59DE8...n-soral-dieudonne-vincent-lapierre-zohra-mahi
> http://www.wat.tv/video/dieudonne-hommage-hugo-chavez-5tmi5_5djiz_.html
> 
> Aledgedly his next film "explores" jewish involvement in the slave trade




And the point Im trying to make is the likes of Camus are only too happy to pick up the anti semitic brush and smear an entire platform by proclaiming Diedonnehe leader of it . And therefore , naturally in a country were the ruling socialists have been intent on invading Syria, taking out Hezbollah, cosying up to Saudi..whose own geopolitical interests correspond precisely with the interests of Washington and Tel Aviv, such analysis of those who oppose them politically should be treated with great caution .


----------



## Casually Red (Dec 31, 2013)

phildwyer said:


> Obviously Dieudonne associates with both the extreme left and the extreme right.  He seems to draw support from both too.
> 
> So rather than a left or rightist we might call him an "extremist," or perhaps what he calls himself: "anti-establishment."



or an attention seeker, self publicist, professional controversialist who without doubt when it suits him would sell his associates from whatever quarter down the river in a heartbeat .


----------



## Fedayn (Dec 31, 2013)

Casually Red said:


> or an attention seeker



Why not call him what he is, an anti-semite.


----------



## Casually Red (Dec 31, 2013)

Fedayn said:


> Why not call him what he is, an anti-semite.




Ive already described him as anti semitic in a previous post . The trend of only seeing what you want to see obviously continues .


----------



## Fedayn (Dec 31, 2013)

Casually Red said:


> Ive already described him as anti semitic in a previous post . The trend of only seeing what you want to see obviously continues .



No, I saw it, but the rather pointless 'attention seeker' comment frankly detracts from what he is. Makes him out to be just a bit of a dafty when we both know he's more than just a dafty.


----------



## Casually Red (Dec 31, 2013)

phildwyer said:


> It seems everyone's wrong but you eh Delbert?




oh right, thread makes sense now . Ive that self righteous owns the board prick on ignore .


----------



## Casually Red (Dec 31, 2013)

Fedayn said:


> No, I saw it, but the rather pointless 'attention seeker' comment frankly detracts from what he is. Makes him out to be just a bit of a dafty when we both know he's more than just a dafty.




Like I said I already described him as anti semitic in my previous post about him . How about you dont try and write my posts for me and Ill not tell you what to write ?  Alright mush ?


----------



## Fedayn (Dec 31, 2013)

Casually Red said:


> Like I said I already described him as anti semitic in my previous post about him . How about you dont try and write my posts for me and Ill not tell you what to write ?  Alright mush ?



Like being savaged by a dead sheep.


----------



## Casually Red (Dec 31, 2013)

I didnt come on here to argue with you or anyone else .


----------



## Casually Red (Dec 31, 2013)

Favelado said:


> It's fair comment CR. You're trolling on nine threads out of ten you post on, while pretending to be sincere.



go and fuck your self, seriously, for the new year


----------



## CosmikRoger (Dec 31, 2013)

This thread sums up Urban perfectly. When the whole Anelka thing came about I was firmly under the impression that the quenelle was some kind of facile youth anti-establishment bollocks being blown out of proportion by journalists looking for someone to smear, but the wiser heads amongst you showed evidence of how sinister this shit really is.
Consequently you have all simultaneously educated me and amused me greatly by turning this serious subject into an almighty bun fight.
Happy New Year one and all


----------



## Favelado (Dec 31, 2013)

Casually Red said:


> go and fuck your self, seriously, for the new year



Good luck with the dozens of disingenuous contributions to come on Urban in 2014. xxx


----------



## Casually Red (Dec 31, 2013)

revol68 said:


> Has it eve occured to you that these issues framed in such a way are bugbears for euro fash, that euro nationalism isn't just moronic bootboys like the NF but has a particular analysis that essentially replaces class with national units... You'd fit right in, like a good little 3rd positionist.




Im very well aware of what Eurofash do, look like, how they thrive and all the rest ..thanks. Im also very well aware of the fact theyre going from strength to strength . So confident are they these days that they even lost the run of themselves and targetted a close family member relatively recently , because of his beliefs, which are pretty much identical to mine . Its also fair to say that those particular ones most likely wont be doing it again , the error of their ways having been robustly pointed out to them. Which led them to run screaming to the filth .


Now off you run and shout class at people who wont ever listen to you . In a million years . Something I suspect your actually quite happy about . Professional misfit .


----------



## Casually Red (Dec 31, 2013)

phildwyer said:


> Numbers Carlos the Jackal among his supporters, according to Wiki.
> 
> Is CtJ on the left or the right?




carlos converted to Islam

eta

hes still claiming left wing basis for his position though


----------



## where to (Dec 31, 2013)

DexterTCN said:


> My comments stand.  I require more than a tabloid headline and some up-their-own-arses urbanites to convince me that Anelka is 'guilty' of anything.
> 
> I tend not to get involved once all the usual suspects troop in, it's pointless.
> 
> ...



What are your views on Dieudonne, in light of what has been posted to date?


----------



## where to (Dec 31, 2013)

Same goes for the rest of those on the thread who have not condemned anelka , (for whatever reason/s)


----------



## manny-p (Dec 31, 2013)

LiamO said:


> Stop talking in tongues you tedious bore. Who is batskin when he is at home?
> 
> and your post needs some S's I think.



Serge Ayoub mate. Infamous French Nazi of Lebanese Origin-infamous partly due to being a media darling at one point when the french press had an obsession with french far right and their is quite alot of video footage etc from that time. Dubbed batskin cos of his use of baseball bat. Owns a bar in Paris I think and is into his third way fascism. His group(JNR) was responsible for the murder of Clement Meric it has since been banned by the French state. Recently one of Batskins mates was pictured providing security for Anelka's knob friend at his trial.


----------



## Casually Red (Dec 31, 2013)

where to said:


> Same goes for the rest of those on the thread who have not condemned anelka , (for whatever reason/s)




hardly anyone on the thread condemned anelka , as it moved on very quickly . If you were a bit more specific it might help with whatever your trying to get at .


----------



## Fedayn (Dec 31, 2013)

manny-p said:


> Serge Ayoub mate. Infamous French Nazi of Lebanese Origin-infamous partly due to being a media darling at one point when the french press had an obsession with french far right and their is quite alot of video footage etc from that time. Dubbed batskin cos of his use of baseball bat. Owns a bar in Paris I think and is into his third way fascism. His group was responsible for the murder of Clement Meric it has since been banned by the French state. Recently one of Batskins mates was pictured providing security for Anelka's knob friend at his trial.



Alain Soral, one of Dieudonnes pals (pictured doing the 'quenelle' at the Shoah memorial in Berlin) co-owns a bar with Batskin.


----------



## where to (Dec 31, 2013)

Casually Red said:


> hardly anyone on the thread condemned anelka , as it moved on very quickly . If you were a bit more specific it might help with whatever your trying to get at .



I want to know if there is anyone on this thread who does not consider him a rancid, anti-Semitic scumbag basically.


----------



## manny-p (Dec 31, 2013)

Dieudonne interviewing Serge Ayoub (Batskin)....Anti semite cunts.


----------



## phildwyer (Dec 31, 2013)

Fedayn said:


> Why not call him what he is, an anti-semite.



Alright.  He's not a right-winger though.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 31, 2013)

Sasaferrato said:


> I must say this whole business astonished me. Like most people, I had never heard of 'La Quenelle'.
> 
> On reading about it's originator, it rapidly becomes apparent that it is an anti-Semitic gesture. One cannot know with absolute certainty that this was the intent of the originator, but it becomes apparent that it is an anti-Semitic gesture. The evidence supplied by You Tube is overwhelming.
> 
> ...



Well put.


----------



## 8115 (Dec 31, 2013)

Re - not condemming.  Does he consider it to be more an anti-zionist symbol, or shorthand for anti zionism?  I think France has a lot more people from the arab world than Britain which might mean that Palestine is a much more political hot potato.  I think it's probably a nasty gesture, but culturally things could be a lot more complex in France.

What's the symbol mean to represent anyway?  Something to do with the Holocaust but what?  (Sorry I haven't read the thread all the way through).


----------



## FNG (Dec 31, 2013)

Casually Red said:


> And the point Im trying to make is the likes of Camus are only too happy to pick up the anti semitic brush and smear an entire platform by proclaiming Diedonnehe leader of it . And therefore , naturally in a country were the ruling socialists have been intent on invading Syria, taking out Hezbollah, cosying up to Saudi..whose own geopolitical interests correspond precisely with the interests of Washington and Tel Aviv, such analysis of those who oppose them politically should be treated with great caution .



Diedonnhes has carefully cultivated a culture of celebrity endorsement, his face book page has a section on VIP quenelles, Anelka has by making the very public gesture of support for Diedonnhes in a premiership football match has boosted Diedonnhes profile around the globe,that has the calculated effect of giving  Diedonnhes views and anti defamation baiting antics greater exposure than they would otherwise warrant and the opportunity Camus has been waiting for to make political capital since the whole sorry saga began, Diedonnhes having courted this controversy from the out set will invariably use this backlash to try to further his own political career, in cahoots with his mate from block identaire


----------



## manny-p (Dec 31, 2013)

8115 said:


> Re - not condemming.  Does he consider it to be more an anti-zionist symbol, or shorthand for anti zionism?  I think France has a lot more people from the arab world than Britain which might mean that Palestine is a much more political hot potato.  I think it's probably a nasty gesture, but culturally things could be a lot more complex in France.
> 
> What's the symbol mean to represent anyway?  Something to do with the Holocaust but what?  (Sorry I haven't read the thread all the way through).


If you read the thread the whole way through your questions are answered.


----------



## AverageJoe (Dec 31, 2013)

This is exactly how NYE should be celebrated....


----------



## where to (Dec 31, 2013)

8115 said:


> Re - not condemming.  Does he consider it to be more an anti-zionist symbol, or shorthand for anti zionism?  I think France has a lot more people from the arab world than Britain which might mean that Palestine is a much more political hot potato.  I think it's probably a nasty gesture, but culturally things could be a lot more complex in France.
> 
> What's the symbol mean to represent anyway?  Something to do with the Holocaust but what?  (Sorry I haven't read the thread all the way through).



This is one you really want to read before posting tbh


----------



## 8115 (Dec 31, 2013)

manny-p said:


> If you read the thread the whole way through your questions are answered.


I googled it, thanks.


----------



## revol68 (Dec 31, 2013)

Casually Red said:


> Im very well aware of what Eurofash do, look like, how they thrive and all the rest ..thanks. Im also very well aware of the fact theyre going from strength to strength . So confident are they these days that they even lost the run of themselves and targetted a close family member relatively recently , because of his beliefs, which are pretty much identical to mine . Its also fair to say that those particular ones most likely wont be doing it again , the error of their ways having been robustly pointed out to them. Which led them to run screaming to the filth .
> 
> 
> Now off you run and shout class at people who wont ever listen to you . In a million years . Something I suspect your actually quite happy about . Professional misfit .


Your politics are perfectly in keeping with national bolshevism. 

As for misfit, well I'm not the sad cunt sat in England going on about the inalienable rights of the Irish nation.


----------



## LiamO (Dec 31, 2013)

revol68 said:


> Your politics are perfectly in keeping with national bolshevism.
> 
> As for misfit, well I'm not the sad cunt sat in England going on about the inalienable rights of the Irish nation.



Too right. Send 'em all back I say. If they don't like england they should fuck off back to where they come from. 

PS.  whatever gave you the idea cr lives in england, Mr Smallcock?


----------



## revol68 (Jan 1, 2014)

Small cock, lol


----------



## revol68 (Jan 1, 2014)

And fuck off liam o you plastic padcunt, imagine baptising your kid into Catholicism cos you are a sad cunt desperate for an identity.


----------



## tommers (Jan 1, 2014)

Happy new year!


----------



## Casually Red (Jan 1, 2014)

revol68 said:


> Your politics are perfectly in keeping with national bolshevism.
> 
> As for misfit, well I'm not the sad cunt sat in England going on about the inalienable rights of the Irish nation.



happy new year


----------



## Casually Red (Jan 1, 2014)

Favelado said:


> Good luck with the dozens of disingenuous contributions to come on Urban in 2014. xxx



no seriously. go and fuck yourself you waste of fucking space

you plainly misunderstood me originally, useless cunt


----------



## Casually Red (Jan 1, 2014)

revol68 said:


> Your politics are perfectly in keeping with national bolshevism.
> 
> As for misfit, well I'm not the sad cunt sat in England going on about the inalienable rights of the Irish nation.



seriously you can fuck off you unionist piece of pish


----------



## Casually Red (Jan 1, 2014)

revol68 said:


> Your politics are perfectly in keeping with national bolshevism.
> 
> As for misfit, well I'm not the sad cunt sat in England going on about the inalienable rights of the Irish nation.




fucking tramp


----------



## Casually Red (Jan 1, 2014)

tommers said:


> Happy new year!




you too dude


irons


----------



## seventh bullet (Jan 1, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> You're confusing rhetoric and labelling for practice. Don't go by names, go by actions.



Those specifically Marxist-Leninist (Stalinist) labels given to various societies did point to certain political practices whether we agree with them or not.  And they were given depending on the readiness (or not) a society was believed to be at for a move to full socialist transition.  You and me may think it incorrect to see that system of state ownership as socialism, but that's what they understood it to be, and sincerely.

It wasn't always mere rhetoric, although there are the fickle reformulations of such theory, re the Soviet Union and the European People's Democracies by the late 1940s, for example, and a corresponding but more independent adaptation by Mao and others in China before the Communist victory, on how a Communist-led but pre-socialist society can organise itself ready for such a full transition.

Happy New Year,  by the way.


----------



## bamalama (Jan 1, 2014)

revol68 said:


> And fuck off liam o you plastic padcunt, imagine baptising your kid into Catholicism cos you are a sad cunt desperate for an identity.


Hoist on your own petard


----------



## LiamO (Jan 1, 2014)

revol68 said:


> And fuck off liam o you plastic padcunt, imagine baptising your kid into Catholicism cos you are a sad cunt desperate for an identity.



 racism _and_ sectarianism in the one sentence  do you get extra points for that?

From Smallcock to big cock in one fell swoop.


----------



## Casually Red (Jan 1, 2014)

fucking pathetic when hes reduced to having a go at your kids now


----------



## Favelado (Jan 1, 2014)

Do you have trouble making friends in real life too?


----------



## Casually Red (Jan 1, 2014)

not at all, i just walk about in my kkk robes seig heiling at passersby . Works a treat .


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 1, 2014)

DexterTCN said:


> The emptiest drums make the loudest noise.



I agree.
Dwyer *is* the emptiest drum.

<snip>



> btw you should retract that 'hates Jews' bit.
> 
> But you most likely won't, that's the opinion I've formed of you from reading your posts.



Have you retracted where you accused me of saying that you'd called an Urbanite a Nazi?

Nah, because you're a hypocrite, and your opinion isn't worth a drip of dogpiss.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 1, 2014)

Fedayn said:


> A tag team now ruining the thread.



Hardly surprising, is it?  We knew this would happen when dwyer returned, and the pretenders to his crown returned to their sycophantic ways.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 1, 2014)

Casually Red said:


> or an attention seeker, self publicist, professional controversialist who without doubt when it suits him would sell his associates from whatever quarter down the river in a heartbeat .



His associates, maybe.  His convictions? I doubt it.
Do you not think that quantifying him primarily as an "attention seeker" serves to play down or even excuse his anti-Semitism in an "honest guv, he woz only doing it to get attention" kind of way?

I'd hate to think that you're making yourself a useful idiot for a wanker because you don't realise that your language could be taken as excusing him.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 1, 2014)

Casually Red said:


> I didnt come on here to argue with you or anyone else .



Wow, the bare-facedness of it!!!


----------



## Casually Red (Jan 1, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> His associates, maybe.  His convictions? I doubt it.
> Do you not think that quantifying him primarily as an "attention seeker" serves to play down or even excuse his anti-Semitism in an "honest guv, he woz only doing it to get attention" kind of way?
> 
> I'd hate to think that you're making yourself a useful idiot for a wanker because you don't realise that your language could be taken as excusing him.



id already called him a prick, anti jewish, anti semitic, a prick, nasty, ...please stop insisting on writing my posts for me thanks .

my intervention on the thread was solely to raise question about camus . My wariness was justified .


----------



## Casually Red (Jan 1, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Wow, the bare-facedness of it!!!




the fact was i didnt . If you think Camus is a straight up geezer then thats up to you .


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 1, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> his anti-Semitism



Evidence?  Does he call himself an anti-semite?

As a matter of policy, I tend to doubt allegations of anti-semitism against people who deny being anti-semites.

The whole point of anti-semitism is to win public support by opportunist means.  History offers plenty of examples of successful, overt anti-semites, who do not need to disguise their views.  Is there a precedent for covert anti-semitism?  I think not.

Not that it's impossible of course.  But one must examine the agenda of those who level the charge etc.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 1, 2014)

where to said:


> I want to know if there is anyone on this thread who does not consider him a rancid, anti-Semitic scumbag basically.



He's either an anti-Semite, or an extremely stupid "useful idiot" for anti-Semites.  Either way he's promoted anti-Semitism, so fuck him, the horse he rode in on, *and* the stable that sheltered the horse!


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 1, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> he's promoted anti-Semitism



Where?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 1, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Evidence?  Does he call himself an anti-semite?
> 
> As a matter of policy, I tend to doubt allegations of anti-semitism against people who deny being anti-semites.
> 
> ...



fuck off, dwyer.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 1, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Where?



read the thread.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 1, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> read the thread.



I've read it, and seen no evidence of his anti-semitism so far, unless one equates anti-Zionism with anti-semitism.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 1, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Wow, the bare-facedness of it!!!



Speaking of which, you pretend to be Jewish when you are not.

Why do you do that?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 1, 2014)

Casually Red said:


> id already called him a prick, anti jewish, anti semitic, a prick, nasty, ...please stop insisting on writing my posts for me thanks .



All I did was point out how your post might be read.  The conent and format is your problem, not mine.



> my intervention on the thread was solely to raise question about camus . My wariness was justified .



So you say.  Personally, I'm of the opinion you're being disingenuous.  Why? Because the above isn't how you normally operate, is it?
Wariness? Get away to fuck!


----------



## xslavearcx (Jan 1, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Thought it was Chelsea with the major fash following, although I do know a Chelsea fan who is a socialist



Most people just tend to support the football team their dad supports. The notion that there is a relationship between something as arbritary as that and political afflilations is problematic for a number of reasons; but such notions does assist branding...


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 1, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> I've read it, and seen no evidence of his anti-semitism so far, unless one equates anti-Zionism with anti-semitism.



fuck off, dwyer.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 1, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Speaking of which, you pretend to be Jewish when you are not.
> 
> Why do you do that?



Isn't it more *your* style to pretend to be a member of a religion?


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 1, 2014)

Phil what makes you say he's pretending to be Jewish?


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 1, 2014)

I don't think he is myself?


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 1, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Isn't it more *your* style to pretend to be a member of a religion?



Right on, pseudo-jew.

It's not that I mind, it's just weird.  It makes one question your motives in commenting on such issues as anti-semitism.


----------



## Casually Red (Jan 1, 2014)

[quote="ViolentPanda, post: 12816365, member





> All I did was point out how your post might be read.  The conent and format is your problem, not mine.



what do you mean ? I havent said a single positive thing about either anelka or his mate . Not one . Everything Ive said about him has been critical, openly insulting him . And Ive clearly pointed out his mate is definitely anti semitic .




> So you say.  Personally, I'm of the opinion you're being disingenuous.  Why? Because the above isn't how you normally operate, is it?
> Wariness? Get away to fuck!



what the fucks this even about ?


----------



## Casually Red (Jan 1, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Evidence?  Does he call himself an anti-semite?
> 
> As a matter of policy, I tend to doubt allegations of anti-semitism against people who deny being anti-semites.
> 
> ...



youve obviously never heard of Peter Irving then

Or Winston Churchill


----------



## Greebo (Jan 1, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Phil what makes you say he's pretending to be Jewish?


Regardless of VP's path, comments like that are part of Dwyer's distraction tactics.  Let him use it and he wins.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 1, 2014)

Casually Red said:


> youve obviously never heard of Peter Irving then



True, you have the advantage of me there sir.



Casually Red said:


> Or Winston Churchill



Him I do know.  If he was an anti-semite then so was everybody else.  Which renders the term meaningless and robs it of its force.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 1, 2014)

Casually Red said:


> what do you mean ? I havent said a single positive thing about either anelka or his mate . Not one . Everything Ive said about him has been critical, openly insulting him . And Ive clearly pointed out his mate is definitely anti semitic .



I'll make it simple.
You refer to him as an "attention seeker".
My point is that by referring to him primarily as an attention seeker, some people might take your post as indicating a preference for him to be seen primarily as an attention seeker, rather than as an anti-Semite.

Simple enough?




> what the fucks this even about ?



I think you'll find it's me saying "that CR, he's got a history of being disingenuous".


----------



## Casually Red (Jan 1, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> True, you have the advantage of me there sir.
> 
> 
> 
> Him I do know.  If he was an anti-semite then so was everybody else.  Which renders the term meaningless and robs it of its force.



Peter Irving is a notable holocaust denier who claims to be an historian and not a jew hater . Winston Churchill was a rabid anti semite , unlike everyone else .


----------



## Buckaroo (Jan 1, 2014)

Casually Red said:


> Peter Irving is a notable holocaust denier who claims to be an historian and not a jew hater . Winston Churchill was a rabid anti semite , unlike everyone else .



David Irving isn't it?


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 1, 2014)

Casually Red said:


> Winston Churchill was a rabid anti semite



Bollocks.

Karl Lueger was a rabid anti-semite, Martin Luther was a rabid anti-semite, Hitler was etc.  Churchill might not have wanted his daughter to marry one, but in terms of what _he actually done _he was rather Good for the Jews was he not?  And that's what counts.


----------



## Casually Red (Jan 1, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> I'll make it simple.
> You refer to him as an "attention seeker".
> My point is that by referring to him primarily as an attention seeker, some people might take your post as indicating a preference for him to be seen primarily as an attention seeker, rather than as an anti-Semite.
> 
> ...



I called him anti semitic in previous posts . how many times do I need to repeat that for it to be acceptable enough for yourself ? just out of interest ? Do I need to include it in every post ?
As far as Im concerned after that fucking election poster and the cracks about gas chambers it was pretty much a given .

again, you write your posts, Ill write mine .


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 1, 2014)

Casually Red said:


> Peter Irving is a notable holocaust denier who claims to be an historian and not a jew hater . Winston Churchill was a rabid anti semite , unlike everyone else .



David, author of "The War of the Generals" and assorted other tomes that range from "interesting" to "unworthy revisionist shitbaggery".


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 1, 2014)

Buckaroo said:


> David Irving isn't it?



Unless  Casually Red knows better perhaps?


----------



## Casually Red (Jan 1, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Bollocks.
> 
> Karl Lueger was a rabid anti-semite, Martin Luther was a rabid anti-semite, Hitler was etc.  Churchill might not have wanted his daughter to marry one, but in terms of what _he actually done _he was rather Good for the Jews was he not?  And that's what counts.




such as calling bolshevism a jewish plot, backing up hitlers shite

helping the white russians massacre jews all over the place

yeah, good for them alright


----------



## SpineyNorman (Jan 1, 2014)

savoloysam said:


> OK so black Muslims are "right wing extremists" now. What does that make the white Muslim and black hating fascists? What a load of fucking bollocks. This thread is just another guise for idiots to argue about the dick sizes. Fuck off.



You're a fucking clown. 'Black Muslims' aren't a homogenous group - some black Muslims undoubtedly are on the far right. But infer from this that people are saying 'black Muslims' as a group are on the far right is idiotic and a bit racist - after all, only a bigot assumes all members of a group share the same views, character flaws etc.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 1, 2014)

Buckaroo said:


> David Irving isn't it?



Yup.

Or "whining bastard touting himself around the Euro and US right for a mess of potage and a bottle of brandy a night", as I like to think of him, since the Lipstadt trial.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 1, 2014)

Casually Red said:


> such as calling bolshevism a jewish plot, backing up hitlers shite
> 
> helping the white russians massacre jews all over the place
> 
> yeah, good for them alright



Actually you may have a point, fair play:

http://www.fpp.co.uk/bookchapters/WSC/WSCwrote1920.html

Blimey.


----------



## Casually Red (Jan 1, 2014)

im never wrong


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 1, 2014)

Casually Red said:


> im never wrong



Anti-semitic and pro-Zionist.

Neither the first nor the last.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 1, 2014)

Zionism as anti-Communism:

"Zionism has already become a factor in the political convulsions of Russia, as a powerful competing influence in Bolshevik circles with the international communistic system. Nothing could be more significant than the fury with which Trotsky has attacked the Zionists generally, and Dr. Weissmann in particular. The cruel penetration of his mind leaves him in no doubt that his schemes of a world-wide communistic State under Jewish domination are directly thwarted and hindered by this new ideal, which directs the energies and the hopes of Jews in every land towards a simpler, a truer, and a far more attainable goal. The struggle which is now beginning between the Zionist and Bolshevik Jews is little less than a struggle for the soul of the Jewish people."


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 1, 2014)

SpineyNorman said:


> some black Muslims undoubtedly are on the far right.



How's that then?


----------



## SpineyNorman (Jan 1, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> How's that then?



Sorry Phil but I'm not playing.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 1, 2014)

SpineyNorman said:


> Sorry Phil but I'm not playing.



Outmoded paradigm mate.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Jan 1, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Outmoded paradigm mate.


So's your mum.


----------



## xslavearcx (Jan 1, 2014)

i think the point is that being "black" or being "muslim" does not entail anything about anyones politics, nor does any conjuction of those two predicates entail anything either...

ETA thats directed at phil


----------



## xslavearcx (Jan 1, 2014)

And if by "black muslims" we mean nation of islam, then i think Louis Farrakhan can certainly be put into the category of anti-semitic.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 1, 2014)

And thinking it does is actually quite racist.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 1, 2014)

xslavearcx said:


> i think the point is that being "black" or being "muslim" does not entail anything about anyones politics



Really?

I doubt there are many black Muslim Nazis.  Or even Republicans.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 1, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> And thinking it does is actually quite racist.



Not really.

90% of black Americans vote Democrat.  The percentage is presumably far higher among black Muslims.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 1, 2014)

I'm not playing, sorry. Gonna sit and watch


----------



## xslavearcx (Jan 1, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Really?
> 
> I doubt there are many black Muslim Nazis.  Or even Republicans.



Logically neither of those attributes entail anything about politics. It is perfectly possible to be "black" and far-right, it is perfectly possible to be "muslim" and far right, and it is perfectly possible to be "black" and "muslim" and far right.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 1, 2014)

How can you not think there can be black and Muslim fash?


----------



## Favelado (Jan 1, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Really?
> 
> I doubt there are many black Muslim Nazis.  Or even Republicans.



LOL


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 1, 2014)

There are Jewish fash and gay fash so no reason other minorities can't be far right.


----------



## J Ed (Jan 1, 2014)

Your left right paradigm is sooo last week, we're determining politics by race and religion now - didn't you get the memo?


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 1, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> How can you not think there can be black and Muslim fash?



I said Nazi.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 1, 2014)

How many real Nazis are around these days?


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 1, 2014)

J Ed said:


> Your left right paradigm is sooo last week, we're determining politics by race and religion now - didn't you get the memo?



"Back to Blood" as Tom Wolfe puts it.

To an extent.  It looks more like a chaotic amalgamation of factors to me, but it certainly isn't just class any more.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 1, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> How many real Nazis are around these days?



Precisely my point.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 1, 2014)

Even the neo-Nazis on scumfront have had to adapt their ideology a bit to explain why Hitler failed.


----------



## Casually Red (Jan 1, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Even the neo-Nazis on scumfront have had to adapt their ideology a bit to explain why Hitler failed.



whats the master races current take on it these days


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 1, 2014)

Casually Red said:


> whats the master races current take on it these days



Too much Mr Nice Guy.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 1, 2014)

Casually Red said:


> whats the master races current take on it these days



I think they think Hitler was a great man but that the fact that he was a German nationalist not a white nationalist was where he went wrong and that he should have been better at uniting the white Aryans against the Jew. Or something, maybe someone can explain it better than me but I think a lot of its to do with the fact he put German national interests above the glorious white race or some shit like that. So Germany invaded France and other 'white lands'


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 1, 2014)

There's people who can explain this better than I can, its been a long time since I looked at any of their shite.


----------



## Casually Red (Jan 1, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> I think they think Hitler was a great man but that the fact that he was a German nationalist not a white nationalist was where he went wrong and that he should have been better at uniting the white Aryans against the Jew. Or something, maybe someone can explain it better than me but I think a lot of its to do with the fact he put German national interests above the glorious white race or some shit like that.



i think i can get it


----------



## Buckaroo (Jan 1, 2014)

Bloody vegetarians. Wimps.


----------



## LiamO (Jan 1, 2014)

revol68 said:


> And fuck off liam o you plastic padcunt, imagine baptising your kid into Catholicism cos you are a sad cunt desperate for an identity.



so it would also be acceptable for you to type...



revol68 said:


> And fuck off liam o you plastic Yid cunt, imagine chopping the end of your kid's cock off to make him authentically Jewish cos you are a sad cunt desperate for an identity.



... that wouldn't be iffy at all, would it?

You sound like your French mate, Mr D.


----------



## Casually Red (Jan 1, 2014)

LiamO said:


> You sound like your French mate, Mr D.



http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/uvf-gunrunner-lindsay-robb-murdered.74439/page-5#post-12815874


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 1, 2014)

well surely the old schooler BM and NF sorts still lay claim to the legacy of natsoc at least. Small though that fraternity may be.


----------



## Limerick Red (Jan 1, 2014)

revol68 said:


> And fuck off liam o you plastic padcunt, imagine baptising your kid into Catholicism cos you are a sad cunt desperate for an identity.


edit: Ill just leave it, but this is fuckin outrageous revol68


----------



## LiamO (Jan 1, 2014)

Limerick Red said:


> scum



could you edit that Limerick Red to make it really clear who you are referring to as scum?  Go raibh maith agat.


----------



## goldenecitrone (Jan 1, 2014)

No goals or salutes from Anelka today. Stormtrooper in a teacup indeed.


----------



## MellySingsDoom (Jan 1, 2014)

goldenecitrone said:


> No goals or salutes from Anelka today. Stormtrooper in a teacup indeed.



<something about Groundhog Day copyrighted by Pickman's model >


----------



## revol68 (Jan 1, 2014)

LiamO said:


> so it would also be acceptable for you to type...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



catholic chruch is an institution, a fucking disgusting one at that, you know this yet still buy into for cultural identity reasons, nob.


----------



## revol68 (Jan 1, 2014)

Limerick Red said:


> edit: Ill just leave it, but this is fuckin outrageous revol68



why, he made an active decision to sign his kid into a disgusting institution, not cos he subscribes to catholic doctrines but cause it provides some shitty cultural identity.


----------



## Casually Red (Jan 1, 2014)

revol68 said:


> why, he made an active decision to sign his kid into a disgusting institution, not cos he subscribes to catholic doctrines but cause it provides some shitty cultural identity.



his kids have fuck all to do with you, its him and his missus business and none of yours,  so leave them out of your beef with him, you fucking toerag . 

Kids are strictly off limits now fuck up before you make an even bigger wanker of yourself .


----------



## revol68 (Jan 1, 2014)

Casually Red said:


> his kids have fuck all to do with you, its him and his missus business and none of yours,  so leave them out of your beef with him, you fucking toerag .
> 
> Kids are strictly off limits now fuck up before you make an even bigger wanker of yourself .



i'm talking about his actions, his kid hardly choose to sign up to that shit.


----------



## Limerick Red (Jan 1, 2014)

revol68 said:


> why, he made an active decision to sign his kid into a disgusting institution, not cos he subscribes to catholic doctrines but cause it provides some shitty cultural identity.


The same institution I officially left, and have no time for, but if you cannot see what's wrong with your statement, there's little point in having this conversation


----------



## Casually Red (Jan 1, 2014)

revol68 said:


> i'm talking about his actions, his kid hardly choose to sign up to that shit.



its him and wifes kids, not yours, you dont get a say . Now fuck up .


----------



## revol68 (Jan 1, 2014)

Limerick Red said:


> The same institution I officially left, and have no time for, but if you cannot see what's wrong with your statement, there's little point in having this conversation



I was raised in it too, it's odd because Liam0 claims to stand against everything it stands for yet runs about to it provide an anchor for identity.


----------



## revol68 (Jan 1, 2014)

Casually Red said:


> its him and wifes kids, not yours, you dont get a say . Now fuck up .



where did I say I did, just pointing out his pathetic defence of it on the basis of it providing an identity, which was his argument when he raised it on here previously.


----------



## Casually Red (Jan 1, 2014)

your using his kids as a stick to beat him with, seriously out of order . Plainly you cant see that, so theres little point engaging with you any further . Not that there was ever much point ever .


----------



## revol68 (Jan 1, 2014)

Casually Red said:


> your using his kids as a stick to beat him with, seriously out of order . Plainly you cant see that, so theres little point engaging with you any further . Not that there was ever much point ever .



no im using the argument he made that it provides a cultural identity as a stick to beat him with.


----------



## Casually Red (Jan 1, 2014)

talk to the hand


----------



## killer b (Jan 1, 2014)

why are kids off limit? if revol's identified some hypocristy on liam's part, he should be perfectly entitled to raise it if he chooses. 

It'd probably be easier for everyone if he didn't raise it in the manner of a 14 year old who's just discovered that bad things happen in the world, but I guess some things are beyond him.


----------



## Casually Red (Jan 1, 2014)

Because kids are way too personal . You dont use them against someone, thats a cunts behaviour .


----------



## revol68 (Jan 1, 2014)

christ, his kid is incidental, the issue is that he made the argument that the catholic church provided an identity.

let's take the issue of kids out of it and talk about it as a hypothetical argument.


----------



## Casually Red (Jan 1, 2014)

no, you fuck off


----------



## killer b (Jan 1, 2014)

Casually Red said:


> Because kids are way too personal . You dont use them against someone, thats a cunts behaviour .


bollocks. there's nothing wrong at all with saying 'the way you raise your child appears to be at odds with the politics you claim to believe in'. Which I think is what revol is saying under all the bile?


----------



## Casually Red (Jan 1, 2014)

well i certainly wouldnt say it in the pub, much less internetland .


----------



## killer b (Jan 1, 2014)

no. there's loads of things we talk about here that we wouldn't talk about in the pub. so what?


----------



## Casually Red (Jan 1, 2014)

Last time I checked Liamo doesnt swan about doing that _citizen of the world_ ballsology,nor as far as Im aware does he claim to be an atheist , nor does his wife who has a pretty big say too. Therefore I dont see any contradiction . Liamo doesnt bring identity or religion into his politics either.

Its also blinding obvious the poster most wrapped up in identity issues here is Revol himself, for equally blindingly obvious reasons . He needs to work that out himself and not be dragging anyone elses kids into it .


----------



## revol68 (Jan 1, 2014)

Liam O justified it on the basis it helped provide a cultural identity.

I know loads of people who have had their kids baptised, mostly to please their partner or commonly the grandparents, that's a separate issue.


----------



## Casually Red (Jan 1, 2014)

right, Liamo has a very pronounced english accent, as does his wife, and lives in a small very tight knit and often closed to outsiders rural Irish border community with a seriously strong sense of identity . Because of that background its only natural hed want his kids to be fully assimilated locally and not be running about in adulthood still tormented with identity issues that plainly have warped yourself .
He also grew up in area and an era were being an Irish catholic background brought you both greif and disapproval, so I imagine if he didnt feel ashamed then hes certainly not going to be ashamed now, or would he pass that shame onto his kids either . Its part of his own cultural identity .

Hes got fuck all to apologise for in that regard .

Furthermore having watched his kids grow up over the years I can honestly saw Ive never seen a happier or more well adjusted herd of them . He and his wife have done a terrific job with them and anyone can see the decisions theyve taken for them have always been in their best interests . He made the right call and it shouldnt be an issue.


----------



## Wilf (Jan 1, 2014)

Casually Red said:


> right, Liamo has a very pronounced english accent, as does his wife, and lives in a small very tight knit and often closed to outsiders rural Irish border community with a seriously strong sense of identity . Because of that background its only natural hed want his kids to be fully assimilated locally and not be running about in adulthood still tormented with identity issues that plainly have warped yourself .
> He also grew up in area and an era were being an Irish catholic background brought you both greif and disapproval, so I imagine if he didnt feel ashamed then hes certainly not going to be ashamed now, or would he pass that shame onto his kids either . Its part of his own cultural identity .
> 
> Hes got fuck all to apologise for in that regard .
> ...


I agree with you that it's got fuck all to do with anyone else what decisions liam and partner make. However that's a pretty weird justification for signing up to something you don't believe in.


----------



## Casually Red (Jan 1, 2014)

i shouldnt be speaking on his behalf, because I dont . Thats probably not even why .


----------



## SpineyNorman (Jan 1, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> And thinking it does is actually quite racist.



Precisely.


----------



## LiamO (Jan 1, 2014)

How bizarre that this has become about me and my children.

One at a time chaps and serious questions only. Revol Smallcock may not apply.


----------



## LiamO (Jan 1, 2014)

killer b said:


> bollocks. there's nothing wrong at all with saying 'the way you raise your child appears to be at odds with the politics you claim to believe in'. Which I think is what revol is saying under all the bile?



OKaaaaaaaaaaay. Can you expand on this please killer b ?


----------



## LiamO (Jan 1, 2014)

Wilf said:


> I agree with you that it's got fuck all to do with anyone else what decisions liam and partner make. However that's a pretty weird justification for signing up to something you don't believe in.



and perhaps you could expand on your extrapolation.... of CR's extrapolation... of what my views might actually be?


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 1, 2014)

LiamO said:


> OKaaaaaaaaaaay. Can you expand on this please KillerB?




that @ symbol won't work here cos you've gone KillerB rather than killler[space]b


Personally all my kids will be beaten thoroughly with Luthers points and kicked into next week if they display left footism etc


----------



## LiamO (Jan 1, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> that @ symbol won't work here cos you've gone KillerB rather than killler[space]b



edited. Thanks dotty.


----------



## LiamO (Jan 1, 2014)

Wilf said:


> I agree with you that it's got fuck all to do with anyone else what decisions liam and partner make. However that's a pretty weird justification for signing up to something you don't believe in.



You know what Wilf -ie? I am sick of your passive aggression, so pony up or fuck off.

feel free to join forces with Ginger Smallcock if you like, but _please_ post some evidence to back up his (and, by extension, your) spurious claim, rather than accepting the _bona fides_ of a sectarian/racist bigot.

I strongly suspect that anything Orange Lil comes up with will be so bereft of context that it will be rendered entirely meaningless. But I remain open to persuasion.


----------



## Wilf (Jan 1, 2014)

LiamO said:


> You know what Wilf -ie? I am sick of your passive aggression, so pony up or fuck off.
> 
> feel free to join forces with Ginger Smallcock if you like, but _please_ post some evidence to back up his (and, by extension, your) spurious claim, rather than accepting the _bona fides_ of a sectarian/racist bigot.
> 
> I strongly suspect that anything Orange Lil comes up with will be so bereft of context that it will be rendered entirely meaningless. But I remain open to persuasion.


'Passive aggressive'?  I'm more than happy to call you a sanctimonious cunt. Does that help?

Anyway, to get to it. Revol said something earlier about you having your kid(s) baptised.  My post was _agreeing_ with CR that it's up to you and partner what you do - I've haven't got the slightest interest in playing politics on something like that (though of course if you've posted those details on urban you do open the issue up - it's just that I'm not going there).  However, I thought _his_ logic for your motivation was a bit odd. Whether his account of your motivation is right, whether you believe in god, how any of this fits with your politics, I'm happy to say I haven't got a clue.  For the sake of clarity, I will though call you a cunt again.


----------



## LiamO (Jan 1, 2014)

Wilf said:


> I agree with you that it's got fuck all to do with anyone else what decisions liam and partner make. However that's a pretty weird justification for signing up to something you don't believe in.





Wilf said:


> However, I thought _*his*_ logic for your motivation was a bit odd. Whether his account of your motivation is right, whether you believe in god, how any of this fits with your politics, I'm happy to say I haven't got a clue.



I'm sorry but I am having a little trouble reconciling these two posts.

In the first post you are quite clearly referring to _me _(without of course actually checking anything).

in the second you claim you were referring to Smallcock.

You can't have it both ways wilfie.


----------



## killer b (Jan 1, 2014)

LiamO said:


> OKaaaaaaaaaaay. Can you expand on this please killer b ?


CR was suggesting the family is sacrosanct, and shouldn't be touched on in political argument. I disagree - I think there's many cases where someones approach to family life is extremely relevant to their politics, and should be discussed. 

I've not really been following revol's odd argument with you, so I don't know if that's the case here. But I'm certainly against some kind of blanket _don't talk about the children!_ ban.


----------



## Wilf (Jan 1, 2014)

LiamO said:


> I'm sorry but I am having a little trouble reconciling these two posts.
> 
> In the first post you are quite clearly referring to _me _(without of course actually checking anything).
> 
> ...


Nope. With regard to the first, I was referring to what CR said, his account of why you did what you did. I began the post with 'I agree with you' [CR] - and he replied saying he shouldn't have been speaking for you.

With regard to the second, here's the full post:



> 'Passive aggressive'? I'm more than happy to call you a sanctimonious cunt. Does that help?
> 
> Anyway, to get to it. *Revol* said something earlier about you having your kid(s) baptised. My post was _agreeing_ with *CR* that it's up to you and partner what you do - I've haven't got the slightest interest in playing politics on something like that (though of course if you've posted those details on urban you do open the issue up - it's just that I'm not going there). However, I thought _*his*_ logic for your motivation was a bit odd. Whether his account of your motivation is right, whether you believe in god, how any of this fits with your politics, I'm happy to say I haven't got a clue. For the sake of clarity, I will though call you a cunt again


Yes, I mentioned revol, but _after_ that I mentioned CR.  Clearly, the 'his logic' referred to CR as the person most recently named.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 2, 2014)

If any kid of mine starts nagging me about a Christmas tree and presents I'll chase them into the night


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 2, 2014)

No idea what's happened to the thread btw


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 2, 2014)

'Mum why don't we have a Christmas tree' 
'Shut up or I'll play some sad music and sit you in front of a documentary about the crusades ' 

Etc


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 2, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> that @ symbol won't work here cos you've gone KillerB rather than killler[space]b
> 
> 
> Personally all my kids will be beaten thoroughly with Luthers points and kicked into next week if they display left footism etc


 take them round to the local cathedral to reenact martin Luther's thesis nailing to the door personally.


----------



## FNG (Jan 2, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Alright.  He's not a right-winger though.



Are you ready to admit and acknowledge Dieudonné M'bala M'bala consorts with members of the far right,including former FN members that have endorsed the policy of  Pork only soupkitchens?


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 2, 2014)

FNG said:


> Are you ready to admit and acknowledge Dieudonné M'bala M'bala consorts with members of the far right,including former FN members that have endorsed the policy of  Pork only soupkitchens?



Yep.  While simultaneously recognizing that he also consorts with what used to be called the "far left," thus giving every indication that his politics transcends the seating arrangements of the Constitutional Assembly of 1790.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 2, 2014)

Casually Red said:


> Because kids are way too personal . You dont use them against someone, thats a cunts behaviour .



That's my personal line in the sand too, fwiw.  And it's boring too.


----------



## FNG (Jan 2, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Yep.  While simultaneously recognizing that he also consorts with what used to be called the "far left," thus giving every indication that his politics transcends the seating arrangements of the Constitutional Assembly of 1790.



Which would in his own view be the synthesis of left and right ordered around an agenda of placing anti-semitism at the forefront of both domestic and international political issues.
Which in itself is nothing new and something his ideology shares with old school Strasserism.


----------



## FNG (Jan 2, 2014)

> While simultaneously recognizing that he also consorts with what used to be called the "far left,"



 Any names? the obvious one is Alain Sorrel but his personal political tragectory took him into the FN almost a decade ago,before leaving having failed to secure a place on the candidate shortlist, more info welcomed.


----------



## LiamO (Jan 2, 2014)

Wilf said:


> Nope. etc



Righto. 

CR, Just read what you wrote again and ermmmm.... wtf?


----------



## farmerbarleymow (Jan 2, 2014)

Is it just me who thinks the thread title is referring to something filthy?


----------



## redsquirrel (Jan 2, 2014)

Casually Red said:


> its him and wifes kids, not yours, you dont get a say . Now fuck up .


What absolute bollocks, of course the way children are raised should be informed by wider society as well as by the parents. Children aren't the property of their parents, to do with as they wish. Only a fool could place something so political as raising a child as being banned from discussed/criticised.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 2, 2014)

FNG said:


> Which would in his own view be the synthesis of left and right ordered around an agenda of placing anti-semitism at the forefront of both domestic and international political issues.
> Which in itself is nothing new and something his ideology shares with old school Strasserism.



And yet there is much to differentiate him from Strasserism too, most notably his religion and the color of his skin.


----------



## manny-p (Jan 2, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Yep.  While simultaneously recognizing that he also consorts with what used to be called the "far left," thus giving every indication that his politics transcends the seating arrangements of the Constitutional Assembly of 1790.


Alain Sorrel used to be far left. So did Benito Mussolini....


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 2, 2014)

manny-p said:


> Alain Sorrel used to be far left. So did Benito Mussolini....



Precisely my point.


----------



## manny-p (Jan 2, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Precisely my point.


Apologies. I took from what you said that you thought Alain Sorrel to still be far left.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 2, 2014)

manny-p said:


> Apologies. I took from what you said that you thought Alain Sorrel to still be far left.



I'm suggesting that the left/right dichotomy cannot be usefully applied to such figures.


----------



## manny-p (Jan 2, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> I'm suggesting that the left/right dichotomy cannot be usefully applied to such figures.


It can. He is clearly no longer far left.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 2, 2014)

manny-p said:


> It can. He is clearly no longer far left.



Why not?


----------



## manny-p (Jan 2, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Why not?


He co-owns a bar with an infamous Neo-Nazi.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 2, 2014)

manny-p said:


> He co-owns a bar with an infamous Neo-Nazi.



I'm not interested in his mates.  What about his politics strikes you as "right-wing?"


----------



## ffsear (Jan 2, 2014)

Alan Shearer is a massive Nazi


----------



## manny-p (Jan 2, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> I'm not interested in his mates.  What about his politics strikes you as "right-wing?"


Are you trolling?


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 2, 2014)

manny-p said:


> Are you trolling?



No.  Answer?  Why is Soral "right-wing" in your opinion?


----------



## manny-p (Jan 2, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> No.  Answer?  Why is Soral "right-wing" in your opinion?


Umm I took a look at his wikipedia(not the best academic source agreed, but this is not about academia). Your getting boring keeping up this Soral is not right wing stuff...- 
"In 2005, Soral turned to the far-right, joining the National Front's campaign committee; he was given responsibility for social issues and for the suburbs under the authority of Marine Le Pen. Soral's personal journey has led some to compare him with Jacques Doriot, one of the neo-socialists in the early 1930s and Collaborationist under Pétain.[8] He supported the Bloc identitaire's distribution of food in January 2006.[8]

Since 18 November 2007, Soral has been a member of the central committee of the National Front which he left in early 2009 because of some ideas he was in conflict with (especially the menace of Islam which is not an actual threat for him).

In 2007, he founded the group "Egalité et Réconciliation",[9] a _think tank_ led by the ideas he developed in his books and his several interviews (an innovative mix between social and economic ideas from Left, and Values like Nation or morality from Right)."


----------



## manny-p (Jan 2, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> No.  Answer?  Why is Soral "right-wing" in your opinion?


The fact he co-owns a bar with Serge Ayoub also makes me think he is a cunt.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 2, 2014)

manny-p said:


> Umm I took a look at his wikipedia(not the best academic source agreed, but this is not about academia). Your getting boring keeping up this Soral is not right wing stuff...-
> "In 2005, Soral turned to the far-right, joining the National Front's campaign committee; he was given responsibility for social issues and for the suburbs under the authority of Marine Le Pen. Soral's personal journey has led some to compare him with Jacques Doriot, one of the neo-socialists in the early 1930s and Collaborationist under Pétain.[8] He supported the Bloc identitaire's distribution of food in January 2006.[8]
> 
> Since 18 November 2007, Soral has been a member of the central committee of the National Front which he left in early 2009 because of some ideas he was in conflict with (especially the menace of Islam which is not an actual threat for him).
> ...



That says his ideas are a mixture of "left" and "right-wing."

Doesn't it?

So I ask once again: why do you call him "right-wing?"

It's not his haircut is it?


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 2, 2014)

manny-p said:


> The fact he co-owns a bar with Serge Ayoub also makes me think he is a cunt.



I didn't ask if he was a cunt.  I didn't ask who he owns a bar with.

I asked what it is about his politics that you consider "right-wing."

I've been asking similar questions a lot recently, and no-one seems to know.


----------



## manny-p (Jan 2, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> That says his ideas are a mixture of "left" and "right-wing."
> 
> Doesn't it?
> 
> ...


You are starting to sound like a prick. I have explained why he is right wing. Now stop this.


----------



## manny-p (Jan 2, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> It's not his haircut is it?


This is lazy....try harder.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 2, 2014)

if you can't call a le pen supporter who co-owned a bar with a profile fash then who can you call?


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 2, 2014)

manny-p said:


> I have explained why he is right wing.



No you haven't, as everyone can plainly see.

I ask again.  Which of his political ideas is "right-wing?"


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 2, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> if you can't call a le pen supporter who co-owned a bar with a profile fash then who van you call?



Good question Sir.


----------



## manny-p (Jan 2, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Good question Sir.


Just goes to show how some academics are thick are fuck.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 2, 2014)

manny-p said:


> You are starting to sound like a prick.



And you are starting to get angry, which is interesting.



manny-p said:


> Now stop this.



Why do you want me to stop it?


----------



## manny-p (Jan 2, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> And you are starting to get angry, which is interesting.
> 
> 
> 
> Why do you want me to stop it?


Actually continue I am enjoying watching you make a massive cunt of yourself.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 2, 2014)

manny-p said:


> Just goes to show how some academics are thick are fuck.



I note that you become annoyed and aggressive when the "left-right" dichotomy is questioned.

Can it be that this dichotomoy has somehow become entangled with your sense of self?


----------



## manny-p (Jan 2, 2014)

Jog on.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 2, 2014)

manny-p said:


> Just goes to show how some academics are thick are fuck.



Q: How many academics does it take to change a lightbulb?

A: Only one, in theory.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 2, 2014)

manny-p said:


> Jog on.



QEfuckingD.

The prosecution rests.


----------



## manny-p (Jan 2, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Q: How many academics does it take to change a lightbulb?
> 
> A: Only one, in theory.


So just for the record. Where would you place the Front National politically on the political spectrum?


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 2, 2014)

manny-p said:


> So just for the record. Where would you place the Front National politically on the political spectrum?



I don't envisage politics as a "spectrum."  The rainbow's a spectrum.


----------



## manny-p (Jan 2, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> I don't envisage politics as a "spectrum."  The rainbow's a spectrum.


Ok so do you consider the FN to be far right or not? Answer the question.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 2, 2014)

manny-p said:


> Ok so do you consider the FN to be far right or not? Answer the question.



No I don't.  I don't think C21st politicians can usefully be classified as "left-" or "right-wing."


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 2, 2014)

manny-p said:


> Answer the question.



OK, I did.

Now how about you answer mine?

Which of Soral's ideas do you consider "right-wing?"

It shouldn't be difficult, since this terminology seems important to you.


----------



## manny-p (Jan 2, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> OK, I did.
> 
> Now how about you answer mine?
> 
> ...



The fact he was in the FN. The fact he is a rabid anti semite. The fact that he is good mates of Serge Ayoub.


----------



## cesare (Jan 2, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> I note that you become annoyed and aggressive when the "left-right" dichotomy is questioned.
> 
> Can it be that this dichotomoy has somehow become entangled with your sense of self?


You'll be questioning the socialism in national socialism, next?


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 2, 2014)

manny-p said:


> The fact he was in the FN. The fact he is a rabid anti semite. The fact that he is good mates of Serge Ayoub.



Two guilts-by-association.  Rubbish, don't count. 

One substantive charge: anti-semitism.  That's your definition of "right-wing" then.

"What is the worldly god of the Jew?  Money!  Very well then, make huckstering--real, practical Judaism--impossible, and we make the Jew impossible!"

So a "right-winger" said that?


----------



## manny-p (Jan 2, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Two guilts-by-association.  Rubbish, don't count.
> 
> One substantive charge: anti-semitism.  That's your definition of "right-wing" then.
> 
> ...



Didn't you try to call the IWCA racist or am I mixing you up with someone else?


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 2, 2014)

manny-p said:


> Didn't you try to call the IWCA racist or am I mixing you up with someone else?



Wasn't me.

Care to address the substantive issue I've raised here?


----------



## manny-p (Jan 2, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Wasn't me.
> 
> Care to address the substantive issue I've raised here?


I have scroll up.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 2, 2014)

manny-p said:


> I have scroll up.



Let me save you the bother.

Left-wing: Right-wing.
Four-legs: Two-legs.


----------



## manny-p (Jan 2, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Let me save you the bother.
> 
> Left-wing: Right-wing.
> Four-legs: Two-legs.


What do you lecture in?


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 2, 2014)

manny-p said:


> What do you lecture in?



T-shirt and jeans.


----------



## 1%er (Jan 2, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> T-shirt and jeans.


a panama hat and flip flops?


----------



## manny-p (Jan 2, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> T-shirt and jeans.


Nice.


----------



## manny-p (Jan 2, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> T-shirt and jeans.


What was your beef with the IWCA btw? I remember you started a thread or had a run in with a few members.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 2, 2014)

manny-p said:


> What was your beef with the IWCA btw? I remember you started a thread or had a run in with a few members.



I never had a beef with anyone.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 2, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> I never had a beef with anyone.


you're not a very good liar


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 2, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> you're not a very good liar



Except Pickman's.


----------



## manny-p (Jan 2, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Except Pickman's.


I know you.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 2, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Except Pickman's.


it's not just me, it's the rest of the english-speaking world.


----------



## imposs1904 (Jan 2, 2014)

farmerbarleymow said:


> Is it just me who thinks the thread title is referring to something filthy?



Is it just me who thinks quenelle rhymes with 'fucking hell'?


----------



## cesare (Jan 2, 2014)

imposs1904 said:


> Is it just me who thinks quenelle rhymes with 'fucking hell'?


See #5


----------



## imposs1904 (Jan 2, 2014)

cesare said:


> See #5



bastard. 

post 5 seems so long ago on this thread.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 2, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Two guilts-by-association.  Rubbish, don't count.
> 
> One substantive charge: anti-semitism.  That's your definition of "right-wing" then.
> 
> ...



I know it looks dodgy but wasn't Marx referring to any religion when he said that? I thought that he meant peoples lives were governed by money and capital no matter how pious seeming they were And that it was economics that dictated how people behaved more than God. I might have got that wrong though.
​


----------



## cesare (Jan 2, 2014)

imposs1904 said:


> bastard.
> 
> post 5 seems so long ago on this thread.





I was late to start reading it, the start's probably fresher in my memory.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 2, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> I know it looks dodgy but wasn't Marx referring to any religion when he said that? I thought that he meant peoples lives were governed by money and capital no matter how pious seeming they were And that it was economics that dictated how people behaved more than God. I might have got that wrong though.
> ​



The meaning of what he's saying is complicated and debatable.  He's alluding to archaic theological differences between Judaism and Christianity, among other things.

But even by the standards of the time, the tone can certainly be called anti-semitic.  Nor is it the only statement in such a tone by Marx.  In my view however it is silly to take the tone or even the vocabulary that people use as indicative of any seriously-held bigotry.  That applies today as much as in 1843.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 2, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> The meaning of what he's saying is complicated and debatable.  He's alluding to archaic theological differences between Judaism and Christianity, among other things.
> 
> But even by the standards of the time, the tone can certainly be called anti-semitic.  Nor is it the only statement in such a tone by Marx.  In my view however it is silly to take the tone or even the vocabulary that people use as indicative of any seriously-held bigotry.



I don't see how that has any relevance to someone being involved publically with well known fash, Marx was not mates with volkisch nationalists and certainly had no politica involvement with thwm did he?l


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 2, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> I don't see how that has any relevance to someone being involved publically with well known fash, Marx was not mates with volkisch nationalists and certainly had no politica involvement with thwm did he?l



Marx lived in an era when class was obviously the key to politics.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 2, 2014)

Was a


phildwyer said:


> The meaning of what he's saying is complicated and debatable.  He's alluding to archaic theological differences between Judaism and Christianity, among other things.
> 
> But even by the standards of the time, the tone can certainly be called anti-semitic.  Nor is it the only statement in such a tone by Marx.  In my view however it is silly to take the tone or even the vocabulary that people use as indicative of any seriously-held bigotry.  That applies today as much as in 1843.



So saying something on the lines of 'you fucking kike, with your usury and dislike of Jesus' wouldn't necessarily be antisemitic then?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 2, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Marx lived in an era when class was obviously the key to politics.


meaningless blather


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 2, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> So saying something on the lines of 'you fucking kike, with your usury and dislike of Jesus' wouldn't necessarily be antisemitic then?



Of course it would.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 2, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Marx lived in an era when class was obviously the key to politics.



But he didn't associate with the far right did he? Anyway this is a bit silly.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 2, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> meaningless blather



Fool, leave the thread if you have nothing to contribute.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 2, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> But he didn't associate with the far right did he?



It depends how you define "right-wing."

According to Manny-P's definition, Marx _was _a "right-winger."


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 2, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Fool, leave the thread if you have nothing to contribute.


so you don't know what it means either.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 2, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> so you don't know what it means either.



Fool.

It means that in the C19th and early C20th, in the capitalist world, people's political affiliations were determined primarily by class.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 2, 2014)

He wasn't an anti Semite tho. He was just using Judaism as an example and he could have said the same thing about any religion.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 2, 2014)

He wasn't an anti Semite tho. He was just using Judaism as an example and he could have said the same thing about any religion.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 2, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Fool.
> 
> It means that in the C19th and early C20th, in the capitalist world, people's political affiliations were determined primarily by class.


so what you're saying is that all the rich people in parliament shared the same political affiliation.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 2, 2014)

he was shagging his wifes servant while tappin engels for another fiver to keep the milkman happy. It was a chaotic time man.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 2, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> He wasn't an anti Semite tho. He was just using Judaism as an example and he could have said the same thing about any religion.



Absolutely not true.

He uses "Judaism" as a metaphor for "capitalism," because of such historical reasons as the legal restrictions of Jews to professions such as usury.

If anyone today wrote in those terms, they would be regarded as an overt and obvious anti-semite.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 2, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Absolutely not true.
> 
> He uses "Judaism" as a metaphor for "capitalism," because of such historical reasons as the legal restrictions on Jews to professions such as usury.



But he was talking about all religions when he talked about the worldly god being money, that's what I always took it to mean, because even if someone is the most observant person in the world money still controls their life.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 2, 2014)

And he calls capitalism capitalism everywhere else, so why would he use a metaphor on this occasion?


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 2, 2014)

oh god, Marx was an anti-semite is going to be your new thing isn't it? Maybe he was also a wiccan and an enthusiastic practitioner of the sapphic arts


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 2, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> But he was talking about all religions when he talked about the worldly god being money, that's what I always took it to mean, because even if someone is the most observant person in the world money still controls their life.



No, he's talking specifically about Judaism.  Like most of his contemporaries he regarded Judaism as a worldly or "carnal" religion, as opposed to a _soi disant s_piritual religion such as Christianity.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 2, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> And he calls capitalism capitalism everywhere else, so why would he use a metaphor on this occasion?


he was thinking that some day someone like phildwyer would come along and auld marx would give him something to post about.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 2, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> oh god, Marx was an anti-semite is going to be your new thing isn't it? Maybe he was also a wiccan and an enthusiastic practitioner of the sapphic arts


only on the weekend


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 2, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> oh god, Marx was an anti-semite is going to be your new thing isn't it?



I'm saying he _wasn't _an anti-semite.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 2, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> And he calls capitalism capitalism everywhere else, so why would he use a metaphor on this occasion?



I think you'll find he often uses this metaphor in his early debates with the Young Hegelians.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 2, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> I'm saying he _wasn't _an anti-semite.


now you are.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 2, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> No, he's talking specifically about Judaism.  Like most of his contemporaries he regarded Judaism as a worldly or "carnal" religion, as opposed to a _soi disant s_piritual religion such as Christianity.



But he knew that was bollocks though.


----------



## Wilf (Jan 2, 2014)

LiamO said:


> Righto.
> 
> CR, Just read what you wrote again and ermmmm.... wtf?


Liam, for what it's worth, I was genuinely commenting on what CR said about your motivations.  To be honest though that inevitably edges towards being a public discussion of your actual motivations. I should have stuck by what I said about it being your own affair.  So apologies to you - and CR for dragging him into it.

As others have said, there is a public issue here - and at that level I'd have severe reservations about going anywhere near the church, particularly at this point in history. Same time, don't have to intrude into what are personal decisions on this.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 2, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> No, he's talking specifically about Judaism.  Like most of his contemporaries he regarded Judaism as a worldly or "carnal" religion, as opposed to a _soi disant s_piritual religion such as Christianity.



But if he did so maybe he was just doing it as an example everyone would get? And he speaks in similar terms about Christianity as well. Anyway I am not sure I believe your interpretation because wasn't that passage in the middle of a pamphlet where he took some people to task For not agreeing with Jewish emancipation?


----------



## manny-p (Jan 2, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> It depends how you define "right-wing."
> 
> According to Manny-P's definition, Marx _was _a "right-winger."


You really are a disingenious boy.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 2, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> oh god, Marx was an anti-semite is going to be your new thing isn't it? Maybe he was also a wiccan and an enthusiastic practitioner of the sapphic arts



He must have been a wrong un, he hardly mentioned usury at all.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 2, 2014)

And I don't remember him talking about the devil very much either.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 2, 2014)

manny-p said:


> You really are a disingenious boy.



No, the _ad hominem _cannot save you now.

I asked you to give me an idea that you consider politically "right-wing."

All you could come up with was anti-semitism.

So I pointed out that this is not a very good definition of "right-wing," since it would force us so to classify Karl Marx, which would be daft. 

Now you can have another go if you want.  What is "right-wing" in your view?


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 2, 2014)

manny-p said:


> Serge Ayoub mate. Infamous French Nazi of Lebanese Origin-infamous partly due to being a media darling at one point when the french press had an obsession with french far right and their is quite alot of video footage etc from that time. Dubbed batskin cos of his use of baseball bat. Owns a bar in Paris I think and is into his third way fascism. His group(JNR) was responsible for the murder of Clement Meric it has since been banned by the French state. Recently one of Batskins mates was pictured providing security for Anelka's knob friend at his trial.



As mentioned earlier - the co-owner of the bar (now closed) was Alain Soral - the bloke who co-founded the anti-semitic party (the one in the poster from back on the first or second page) with Anelka's comrade.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 2, 2014)

Marx wasn't an anti semite, he argued in favour of Jewish emancipation, he didn't associate politically or personally with anti Semites, he didn't argue for an anti-semitic interpretation of capitalism or spend his life trying to mock Jews and take the piss out of/deny atrocities against them. None of which apply to anelka's mate and which do apply to marx, he wanted workers of the world to unite, not everyone to unite against the Jews.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 2, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Marx wasn't an anti semite, he argued in favour of Jewish emancipation, he didn't associate politically or personally with anti Semites, he didn't argue for an anti-semitic interpretation of capitalism or spend his life trying to mock Jews and take the piss out of/deny atrocities against them. None of which apply to anelka's mate and which do apply to marx, he wanted workers of the world to unite, not everyone to unite against the Jews.



Actually he did take the piss out of them quite a bit.

But I take your point.  My point is that, judged by the standards generally applied today, Marx would most definitely be labelled an anti-semite.  But Marx was obviously not an anti-semite.  Therefore the standards generally applied today are inadequate to determine anti-semitism.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 2, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> But he knew that was bollocks though.



It is not altogether bollocks.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 2, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> But if he did so maybe he was just doing it as an example everyone would get? And he speaks in similar terms about Christianity as well. Anyway I am not sure I believe your interpretation because wasn't that passage in the middle of a pamphlet where he took some people to task For not agreeing with Jewish emancipation?



Yes, he advocated Jewish emancipation.  And why did he advocate it?  Because he thought it would "make the Jew impossible," that's why.

There's really no way around the fact that, by our standards, he was anti-semitic. 

Equally there is no way around the fact that, by his standards, he was not.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 2, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> It is not altogether bollocks.



Yes it is, how do you measure 'spirituality' anyway?


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 2, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Yes, he advocated Jewish emancipation.  And why did he advocate it?  Because he thought it would "make the Jew impossible," that's why.
> 
> There's really no way around the fact that, by our standards, he was anti-semitic.
> 
> Equally there is no way around the fact that, by his standards, he was not.



The social role of somebody forced into money lending and living a precarious life at the edge of society was something he would have almost certainly wanted to get rid of. Not the people themselves.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 2, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Yes it is, how do you measure 'spirituality' anyway?



Circumcision's as good a way as any.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 2, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> The social role of somebody forced into money lending and living a precarious life at the edge of society was something he would have almost certainly wanted to get rid of. Not the people themselves.



He wanted to eradicate the separate Jewish identity.  

Today only an anti-semite would take such a position.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 2, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> He wanted to eradicate the separate Jewish identity.
> 
> Today only an anti-semite would take such a position.



Not necessarily, his position was that workers should unite without respect to religion or nationality?


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 2, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Not necessarily, his position was that workers should unite without respect to religion or nationality?



Not in _On the Jewish Question, _where he  argues for eliminating a separate Jewish identity.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 2, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Circumcision's as good a way as any.



The whole idea that Jews aren't spiritual and don't really believe and are just doing the stuff out of habit, while that is true of some, was something that was made a big deal of and ignores the fact that many Christians are like that as well, don't think you can say one religion is more spiritual than the next.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 2, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Not in _On the Jewish Question, _where he  argues for eliminating a separate Jewish identity.



Doesn't he say that about every identity except class?


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 2, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> The whole idea that Jews aren't spiritual and don't really believe and are just doing the stuff out of habit, while that is true of some, was something that was made a big deal of and ignores the fact that many Christians are like that as well, don't think you can say one religion is more spiritual than the next.



Following the law is more important in Judaism than in Christianity.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 2, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> He wanted to eradicate the separate Jewish identity.
> 
> Today only an anti-semite would take such a position.


presumably you would like to promote it.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 2, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Following the law is more important in Judaism than in Christianity.


i suppose you consider that to be a major reason why there are more christian than jewish criminals as a proportion of the faith populations.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 2, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Doesn't he say that about every identity except class?



Even class.  Especially class.  He wasn't that big on identity.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 2, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Even class.  Especially class.  He wasn't that big on identity.


but you are.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 2, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> i suppose you consider that to be a major reason why there are more christian than jewish criminals as a proportion of the faith populations.



The religious law, fool.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 2, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Following the law is more important in Judaism than in Christianity.



So?  that doesn't have anything to do with who believes more and is more spiritual


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 2, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Circumcision's as good a way as any.




for fucks sake phillip


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 2, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> for fucks sake phillip



Do Jews practice a carnal or a spiritual circumcision?
Do Christians practice a carnal or a spiritual circumcision?


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 2, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Following the law is more important in Judaism than in Christianity.



Hell is more important in Christianity, that doesn't mean that no Christians really believe or love God and are just doing it because they're scared of going to hell.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 2, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> The religious law, fool.


what, the religious law which includes 'thou shalt not steal'?


----------



## Maurice Picarda (Jan 2, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> what, the religious law which includes 'though shalt not steal'?



We're talking Leviticus rather than Exodus, I think.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 2, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> what, the religious law which includes 'though shalt not steal'?



Yes.  The whole point of Christianity is that you're allowed to break the law.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 2, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Yes.  The whole point of Christianity is that you're allowed to break the law.


where does it say that in the bible?


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Jan 2, 2014)

Phil has made two big mistakes on this page - open goals for you


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 2, 2014)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> Phil has made two big mistakes on this page - open goals for you


we set them up - you knock them in


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Jan 2, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> we set them up - you knock them in


Unfortunately I'm in the park waiting for the missus so don't have time until later


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 2, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Yes.  The whole point of Christianity is that you're allowed to break the law.



Who gave the Jews the law Phil, according to the religion? Believing in a religion where you have to follow rules (and everyone interprets those rules differently these days) doesn't mean you can't have faith/be spiritual. And for me religion is all about morals and if you are using it as an excuse to allow you to be a cunt then I don't really see a point.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 2, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> where does it say that in the bible?



Romans 10.4


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 2, 2014)

Anyway didn't Jesus say he came to fulfill the law?


----------



## isvicthere? (Jan 2, 2014)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> Super rich footballer in right winger schock



I thought he was more of a centre forward.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 2, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Believing in a religion where you have to follow rules (and everyone interprets those rules differently these days) doesn't mean you can't have faith/be spiritual.



I agree.

But believing in a religion where you _don't_ have to follow rules means you have no choice but to be spiritual, since there's nothing else.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 2, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Anyway didn't Jesus say he came to fulfill the law?



Meaning: to end it.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 2, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> I agree.
> 
> But believing in a religion where you _don't_ have to follow rules means you have no choice but to be spiritual, since there's nothing else.



Er..the church of England?


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 2, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Er..the church of England?



I said "Christian."


----------



## Wilf (Jan 2, 2014)

isvicthere? said:


> I thought he was more of a centre forward.


 Midfield Generalissimo.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 2, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> I said "Christian."



They're Christians, the joke is that they have a reputation for not really believing in God


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 2, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> They're Christians, the joke is that they have a reputation for not really believing in God



No-one who calls himself a "Christian" is a Christian.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 2, 2014)

Yes they 


phildwyer said:


> I agree.
> 
> But believing in a religion where you _don't_ have to follow rules means you have no choice but to be spiritual, since there's nothing else.



This really used to piss me off with Christian missionaries trying to convert people, the way they just assume that you don't believe in anything and the old testament God is just a cunt who expects everyone to worship him through fear, but as soon as Jesus came along everything was fine, even though if you don't believe in god you're going straight to hell according to the new testament. It also pissed me off when DotCommunist told me how some Christians thought non-jews couldn't pray to God before Jesus came along.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 2, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> No-one who calls himself a "Christian" is a Christian.



Yes they are


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 2, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Romans 10.4


that doesn't say 'let's break the law tonight'


----------



## Humberto (Jan 2, 2014)

Can people with no Jewish anscestry convert to Judaism?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 2, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Anyway didn't Jesus say he came to fulfill the law?


cf 'tex' watson at 10050 cielo drive:





> I'm the devil, I'm here to do the devil's business.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 2, 2014)

Humberto said:


> Can people with no Jewish anscestry convert to Judaism?


yes

next


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 2, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Yes they
> 
> 
> This really used to piss me off with Christian missionaries trying to convert people, the way they just assume that you don't believe in anything and the old testament God is just a cunt who expects everyone to worship him through fear, but as soon as Jesus came along everything was fine, even though if you don't believe in god you're going straight to hell according to the new testament. It also pissed me off when DotCommunist told me how some Christians thought non-jews couldn't pray to God before Jesus came along.



thats the deal man, before paul hellenized the gig it was just the heeb dem who were in on the whole salvation thing. Apparently.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 2, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Yes they are



What I mean is, Christianity is arguably opposed to any form of organized religion, because organized religion inevitably involves following rules, and Jesus of Nazareth does seem to have taught that following rules is not necessary for the faithful.

Thus apostasy begins with the passing of the twelve, or even earlier.

This interpretation of Christianity is called Antinomianism.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 2, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Meaning: to end it.




surely a completion of is not an ending


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 2, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> thats the deal man, before paul hellenized the gig it was just the heeb dem who were in on the whole salvation thing. Apparently.



That's complete bollocks though.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 2, 2014)

Humberto said:


> Can people with no Jewish anscestry convert to Judaism?


Yes


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 2, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> surely a completion of is not an ending


there's a queue of people waiting to complete phildwyer. shall i tell them that?


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 2, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> the old testament God is just a cunt



Hmmmm.... not exactly the word I would have chosen, but I have to say that this case is not entirely without merit.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 2, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> That's complete bollocks though.




I know lol. I was reading about Samson earlier apropos of nothing and that story reminded me how intensely interested OT God is. Also as a 'finish him' move getting your super strength back and bringing down your enemies temple around his ears is 100% win


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 2, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> surely a completion of is not an ending



What is it then?


----------



## xslavearcx (Jan 2, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> What I mean is, Christianity is arguably opposed to any form of organized religion, because organized religion inevitably involves following rules, and Jesus of Nazareth does seem to have taught that following rules is not necessary for the faithful.
> 
> Thus apostasy begins with the passing of the twelve, or even earlier.
> 
> This interpretation of Christianity is called Antinomianism.



i was always more of a jamesian than a pauline myself, but thats neither here nor there, a cursory reading of the book of acts, and pauls letters would show that there was very different views on attitudes to observance to the torah in circulation; which is also reflected in the conflicting bits of the gospels on that matter, signifying different redactor stances.. But if one would want a coherant view on reconciling jesus's views on law observance, then one would probably place jesus as a proto-rabbi, in line with pharasiac judiaism, where there one could interpret the mitzvot in a continually renewed and meaningful way in line with the circumstances that one was presented with...


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 2, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Hmmmm.... not exactly the word I would have chosen, but I have to say that this case is not entirely without merit.



Possibly but the new testament god is even worse in thst case, sending people to hell for not believing in him and changing his mind about everything.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 2, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> What is it then?




a movement or a thought exists after completion.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 2, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Possibly but the new testament god is even worse in thst case, sending people to hell for not believing in him and changing his mind about everything.


=> two different deities, as marcion postulated.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 2, 2014)

xslavearcx said:


> i was always more of a jamesian than a pauline myself, but thats neither here nor there, a cursory reading of the book of acts, and pauls letters would show that there was very different views on attitudes to observance to the torah in circulation; which is also reflected in the conflicting bits of the gospels on that matter, signifying different redactor stances.. But if one would want a coherant view on reconciling jesus's views on law observance, then one would probably place jesus as a proto-rabbi, in line with pharasiac judiaism, where there one could interpret the mitzvot in a continually renewed and meaningful way in line with the circumstances that one was presented with...


=> a jacobite


----------



## xslavearcx (Jan 2, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> => a jacobite



quite right!


----------



## xslavearcx (Jan 2, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Possibly but the new testament god is even worse in thst case, sending people to hell for not believing in him and changing his mind about everything.



yeah and imagining you did go to heaven and your god was a wishy washy hippy. how bad would that be!!


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 2, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> I know lol. I was reading about Samson earlier apropos of nothing and that story reminded me how intensely interested OT God is.



That's one way of putting it.  He expresses His interest quite forcefully here:

"23 And Elisha went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.

24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the Lord. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them."

Disproportionate response see.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 2, 2014)

xslavearcx said:


> yeah and imagining you did go to heaven and your god was a wishy washy hippy. how bad would that be!!


heaven's for the people who like things like flower arranging and talking to god. hell is for the sort of people who like other things. it's all made clear in blackadder.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 2, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> That's one way of putting it.  He expresses His interest quite forcefully here:
> 
> "23 And Elisha went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.
> 
> ...


not really, i think it's entirely appropriate. you just don't want to be rent limb from limb by an irate she-bear. coward.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 2, 2014)

xslavearcx said:


> yeah and imagining you did go to heaven and your god was a wishy washy hippy. how bad would that be!!


A wishy washy hippy who sent people to hell for not believing in him and admitted other people who did believe in him no matter what they had done. I think we had the right idea tbh


----------



## Humberto (Jan 2, 2014)

Is Psalms a book in Judaism? Its OT so I imagine it would be. Might be wrong though.


----------



## xslavearcx (Jan 2, 2014)

hippys always have the worst temper tantrums...


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 2, 2014)

Humberto said:


> Is Psalms a book in Judaism? Its OT so I imagine it would be. Might be wrong though.


phil will be along shortly to tell you some utter bollocks. maybe froggy can help you out.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 2, 2014)

xslavearcx said:


> hippys always have the worst temper tantrums...


not after altamont


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 2, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> A wishy washy hippy who sent people to hell for not believing in him



Ah but, what does that mean: "believing in him."  Believing in what?


----------



## xslavearcx (Jan 2, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> not after altamont



just had a quick read on wikipedia article of that concert. Reads like something out of sons of anarchy


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 2, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> That's one way of putting it.  He expresses His interest quite forcefully here:
> 
> "23 And Elisha went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.
> 
> ...




you just wanted to introduce baldness into the discussion


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 2, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> If any kid of mine starts nagging me about a Christmas tree and presents I'll chase them into the night



At Pesach. That'll teach 'em.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 2, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> i suppose you consider that to be a major reason why there are more christian than jewish criminals as a proportion of the faith populations.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 2, 2014)

Humberto said:


> Can people with no Jewish anscestry convert to Judaism?



To some "schools" of Judaism, anyway.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 2, 2014)

Here's another cracker from pressTV. Galloway and John Rees' favoured publisher. I wonder, would they write and present pogroms  programs for the Beobachter in the digital age?


----------



## Greebo (Jan 2, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Hmmmm.... not exactly the word I would have chosen, but I have to say that this case is not entirely without merit.


Emotionally labile psychopathic control freak?


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 2, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> To some "schools" of Judaism, anyway.



No, in every school of Judaism. Theoretically anyway.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 2, 2014)

Psalms is a book in Judaism Humberto, there are psalms called hallel which are sung on festivals and during certain prayer services as well. Although weirdly the book that tells the story of Hanukkah appears in some Christian bibles but not the Jewish tanakh (what Christians call the old testament).


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 2, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> No, in every school of Judaism. Theoretically anyway.



Well quite - for some it is pretty "theoretical" rather than actual!


----------



## krink (Jan 2, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Here's another cracker from pressTV.



fuck me that is horrendous.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 2, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Here's another cracker from pressTV.



Ugh,  new year's resolution get involved in anti cuts/workplace stuff, far more important than anything scum like these could achieve. 

Going to see an old comrade from PSC tonight for a drink as it happens, suspect she came to the same.conclusions I did


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 2, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Ugh,  new year's resolution get involved in anti cuts/workplace stuff, far more important than anything scum like these could achieve.
> 
> Going to see an old comrade from PSC tonight for a drink as it happens, suspect she came to the same.conclusions I did


Remember, John Rees and Galloway produce stuff for them. This is exactly how the normalisation of anti-semitism works. Iran funded Anelka's mate's film called 'anti-semitism'. All tied up together. I can't understand why Rees at least hasn't been challenged on this.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 2, 2014)

Oh you bastards   fuck them all, time to start again.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 2, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Remember, John Rees and Galloway produce stuff for them. This is exactly how the normalisation of anti-semitism works. Iran funded Anelka's mate film called 'anti-semitism'. All tied up together. I can't understand why Rees at least hasn't been challenged on this.



Poisoning the well of the firebox coffee? (Sorry)


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 2, 2014)

Although the addition of poison would probably improve it. Mashed bananas on toast ffs


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 2, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Poisoning the well of the firebox coffee? (Sorry)


Makes me wonder - who _really _brought down firebox?


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 2, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Makes me wonder - who _really _brought down firebox?



Be a good way for Rees to launch a DVD business


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 2, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Ah but, what does that mean: "believing in him."  Believing in what?



Believing that he is the son of God (who is also God) and that he died on the cross for all our sins. It says in the new testament that if you don't believe this you're going to hell, ehen he says 'i am the way, the truth and the light, and nobody comrs to the father except through me.' And I don't think that you can say he's against organized religion when he says to Peter 'on this rock I will build my church' why would he say that if he didn't believe Christianity should be a religion?


----------



## SpineyNorman (Jan 2, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> But he was talking about all religions when he talked about the worldly god being money, that's what I always took it to mean, because even if someone is the most observant person in the world money still controls their life.



As usual the prof is talking out of his arse - it's a reply to either Bauer or Fauerbach (can't remember which) who had written that capitalism, and particularly finance capital, were specifically 'Jewish' and called for the political suppression of Jews. What Marx is doing here is asking what the material basis of what the author he's replying to criticises Judaism for is and (to an extent) defending Jews.

I do think there is a hint of antisemitism in what Marx is saying - in the language - even if the context is taken into account, but even so compared to the society he was living in his views on Jews were pretty progressive. And the interesting thing about your little exchange with Phil here is that when I had this discussion with him he was adamant that there was *no* antisemitism in _On the Jewish Question._

There are therefore two possibilities.

Either Phil was so impressed by my arguments that, after a considerable amount of the keyboard flatulence we've become accustomed to from him, he reconsidered and now agrees that I was right and he was wrong. The omniscient professor beaten in an argument by someone who doesn't even have a degree.

Or he's the kind of dishonest debator that changes his interpretation of a text depending on which one supports the argument he's trying to make.


----------



## LiamO (Jan 2, 2014)

From that Press TV thing...



> You can smell the suffering and death.  What you can also smell is something else wrong.  You see, Auschwitz, at one time credited with the gassing of millions of Jews is, officially, no longer considered a “death camp.”



Definitely not looking for a row here but is the author actually claiming that there is some new research/evidence that claims there was no extermination at Auschwitz?

or is he just playing with semantics on the basis that it was Auschwitz's next-door neighbour, Birkenau, which actually housed the facilities for industrial-scale slaughter?

elbows ?


----------



## manny-p (Jan 2, 2014)

SpineyNorman said:


> As usual the prof is talking out of his arse


----------



## redsquirrel (Jan 2, 2014)

SpineyNorman said:


> Or he's the kind of dishonest debator that changes his interpretation of a text depending on which one supports the argument he's trying to make.


Indeed I think a certain academic might have even written a piece about such behaviour at one point.


----------



## FNG (Jan 2, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> And yet there is much to differentiate him from Strasserism too, most notably his religion and the color of his skin.


Whats so special about his religion there were nazi ss muslim divisions and the arab translation of mien kampf was subtly edited to remove derogatory classifications of arabs
Why would the colour of his skin proscribe him from espousing nazi ideology


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 2, 2014)

SpineyNorman said:


> The omniscient professor beaten in an argument by someone who doesn't even have a degree.



You guys always say this like I'd think it was unlikely or something.

If I've ever given the impression that I find people with degrees more intimidating in debate than those without, then let me assure you that would have been a very false impression indeed, as anyone who knows me can tell you.  But then again I never did give that impression or anything like it did I?

With regard to _OTJQ _my position is entirely consistent.  As I've noted here several times, it is not anti-semitic in content, but it is anti-semitic in tone.  Today its tone would be enough to get its author irredeemably labelled as an anti-semite.  That's today's problem.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 2, 2014)

FNG said:


> Why would the colour of his skin proscribe him from espousing nazi ideology



Aryan racial supremacism.

But if you want to say that he's an anti-semite, I can accept that.  What I don't accept is designating him "right-wing."


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 2, 2014)

It is considered a death camp, what websites are you reading? Actually fuck it, I'm stopping.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 2, 2014)

LiamO said:


> From that Press TV thing...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



He's a holocaust denier, don't take out he says seriously. I misread your post before, sorry. The rest of the tone of the article should make that clear. Anyway fuck it, I'm off this thread.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 2, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> He's a holocaust denier, don't take out he says seriously. I misread your post before, sorry. The rest of the tone of the article should make that clear. Anyway fuck it, I'm off this thread.


Owt, not out. Sorry.

Like the op, two seconds reading should sort out who he is and where he's from liam. Why keep refusing to do this whist obsessively asking other people to expand?


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 2, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Owt, not out. Sorry.
> 
> Like the op, two seconds reading should sort out who he is and where he's from liam. Why keep refusing to do this whist obsessively asking other people to expand?


I know, it's just this tablet auto correcting me. Christmas gift from my mum etc


----------



## LiamO (Jan 2, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> It is considered a death camp, what websites are you reading?



I'm reading the link you drew my attention to frogwoman 


.


----------



## LiamO (Jan 2, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Owt, not out. Sorry.
> 
> Like the op, two seconds reading should sort out who he is and where he's from liam. Why keep refusing to do this whist obsessively asking other people to expand?




Fuck off PC strap-on. I can see who/what he is. I was asking what (no matter how spurious) he was basing his claims on. If you can answer the question, answer it. |If you can't, kiss my stones.

The question still stands for anyone who can/would care to answer it.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 2, 2014)

LiamO said:


> Fuck off PC strap-on. I can see who/what he is. I was asking what (no matter how spurious) he was basing his claims on. If you can answer the question, answer it. |If you can't, kiss my stones.
> 
> The question still stands for anyone who can/would care to answer it.


You've spent more time being abusive tonight than bothering to have a look for yourself. Pretty much sums up your contribution to the thread.


----------



## Humberto (Jan 2, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Believing that he is the son of God (who is also God) and that he died on the cross for all our sins. It says in the new testament that if you don't believe this you're going to hell, ehen he says *'i am the way, the truth and the light, and nobody comrs to the father except through me.' And I don't think that you can say he's against organized religion when he says to Peter 'on this rock I will build my church'* why would he say that if he didn't believe Christianity should be a religion?



Perhaps it means that God and man met together through him. That Jesus 'opened the gates' for all who seek God. I may be wrong but perhaps 'seeking God' is sufficient. That might mean 'loving your neighbour' like the Good Samaritan.

Then again another verse is :

"John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

So Jesus says he hasn't come to condemn but unless you believe Jesus is the son of God you are condemned? Perhaps, but you would have to question the Greek meanings of the specific words for yourself before you could reach a definite conclusion. And I can't do that. Are non-christians condemned already? What are Jesus' teachings basically? Love God, love your neighbour, forgive if you would like to be forgiven?  Jesus represented these 'concepts' in person. People who do not love their neighbour, never forgive, who prize material wealth above the wellbeing of other people are already 'dead' spiritually, are already 'condemned'. They get what they asked for in the sense they 'reap what they sow'.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 3, 2014)

LiamO said:


> I'm reading the link you drew my attention to frogwoman
> 
> 
> .



Sorry, wasn't having a go. Fair enough. I Misread your post originally, sorry.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 3, 2014)

Humberto said:


> Perhaps it means that God and man met together through him. That Jesus 'opened the gates' for all who seek God. I may be wrong but perhaps 'seeking God' is sufficient. That might mean 'loving your neighbour' like the Good Samaritan.
> 
> Then again another verse is :
> 
> ...



Fair enough, I could never believe that. I don't think believing Jesus was the son of God really says anything about you as a person, certainly not that you're more worthy or deserving of God's love than anyone else. For me its all about what you do in life.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 3, 2014)

Humberto said:


> Perhaps it means that God and man met together through him. That Jesus 'opened the gates' for all who seek God. I may be wrong but perhaps 'seeking God' is sufficient. That might mean 'loving your neighbour' like the Good Samaritan.
> 
> Then again another verse is :
> 
> ...



I also don't think believing in Jesus as the son of God is synonymous with loving your neighbour or being good, behaving well, etc. It's a bit arrogant to think it does tbh.


----------



## Humberto (Jan 3, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Fair enough, I could never believe that. I don't think believing Jesus was the son of God really says anything about you as a person, certainly not that you're more worthy or deserving of God's love than anyone else. *For me its all about what you do in life*.



I kind of said that FW. I do me best like.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 3, 2014)

SpineyNorman said:


> As usual the prof is talking out of his arse - it's a reply to either Bauer or Fauerbach (can't remember which) who had written that capitalism, and particularly finance capital, were specifically 'Jewish' and called for the political suppression of Jews. What Marx is doing here is asking what the material basis of what the author he's replying to criticises Judaism for is and (to an extent) defending Jews.
> 
> I do think there is a hint of antisemitism in what Marx is saying - in the language - even if the context is taken into account, but even so compared to the society he was living in his views on Jews were pretty progressive. And the interesting thing about your little exchange with Phil here is that when I had this discussion with him he was adamant that there was *no* antisemitism in _On the Jewish Question._
> 
> ...



But he hasn't quoted the entirety of the pamphlet. I'm sure I've described the views of anti-semites, racists etc on here with a view to proving they are wrong and someone could quote a small part of it and use that to say I believed in it.


----------



## Humberto (Jan 3, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> I also don't think believing in Jesus as the son of God is synonymous with loving your neighbour or being good, behaving well, etc. It's a bit arrogant to think it does tbh.



JESUS is synonymous with loving your neighbour.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 3, 2014)

Humberto said:


> I kind of said that FW. I do me best like.



Sorry, just back from the pub.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 3, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> I also don't think believing in Jesus as the son of God is synonymous with loving your neighbour or being good, behaving well, etc. It's a bit arrogant to think it does tbh.



It's not so much believing that Jesus was the son of God that's important (whatever that might mean, and Christians basically have no idea.)

It's believing that your sins are forgiven.  So all these apparently exclusive statements really mean is that you can't be saved unless you believe your sins are forgiven, which is basically a tautology.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 3, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> It's not so much believing that Jesus was the son of God that's important (whatever that might mean, and Christians basically have no idea.)
> 
> It's believing that your sins are forgiven.  So all these apparently exclusive statements really mean is that you can't be saved unless you believe your sins are forgiven, which is basically a tautology.



Believing your sins were forgiven by Jesus though, not a random person. And I'm not sure all my sins have been forgiven tbh


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 3, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> It's not so much believing that Jesus was the son of God that's important (whatever that might mean, and Christians basically have no idea.)
> 
> It's believing that your sins are forgiven.  So all these apparently exclusive statements really mean is that you can't be saved unless you believe your sins are forgiven, which is basically a tautology.



Also I thought it was a requirement pretty much to think Jesus died on the cross and was resurrected?


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 3, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Also I thought it was a requirement pretty much to think Jesus died on the cross and was resurrected?



 For whom?


----------



## Humberto (Jan 3, 2014)

And I thought it was a requirement that you had to have Jewish anscestry to be a convert to judaism. And apparently its not but there is loads of discrimination?


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 3, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> For whom?



For Christians, and also that Jesus took all the sins of everyone who believed in him onto him etc

Had some mentalist street preacher ranting at me about 'when THEY put him on the crosss' last year ffs


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 3, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Believing your sins were forgiven by Jesus though, not a random person.



By the "Son."  The identification of the "Son" with Yeshua ben Yusuf is picture thinking.  Neoplatonism for the masses innit.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 3, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> For Christians



There's no such thing.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 3, 2014)

Humberto said:


> And I thought it was a requirement that you had to have Jewish anscestry to be a convert to judaism. And apparently its not but there is loads of discrimination?



It's not a requirement. And how easy it is really depends on what denomination youre converting to, there is no denomination that outright refuses converts, they often make it very difficult though.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 3, 2014)

What's the material basis for turning so boring phil?


----------



## Humberto (Jan 3, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> By the "Son."  The identification of the "Son" with Yeshua ben Yusuf is picture thinking.  Neoplatonism for the masses innit.



Genuinely don't think you are trying to be clear.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 3, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> By the "Son."  The identification of the "Son" with Yeshua ben Yusuf is picture thinking.  Neoplatonism for the masses innit.



No, it says so in the new testament. I am not quite sure where you're getting this stuff?


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 3, 2014)

Humberto said:


> Genuinely don't think you are trying to be clear.



You know what neoplatonism is?

Christianity is a popularized version of neoplatonism, using "picture thinking" instead of logical argument.

In intellectual neoplatonism, for example, the "Son" is called the _logos._


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 3, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> I am not quite sure where you're getting this stuff?



I'm not making it up, wish I were.

Christianity as "neoplatonism for the masses" = Nietzsche

Christianity as "picture thinking" = Hegel


----------



## Humberto (Jan 3, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> You know what neoplatonism is?
> 
> Christianity is a popularized version of neoplatonism, using "picture thinking" instead of logical argument.
> 
> In intellectual neoplatonism, for example, the "Son" is called the _logos._



Knowing 'stuff' does not an argument make.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 3, 2014)

I don't even know what neoplatonism is


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 3, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> What's the material basis for turning so boring phil?


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 3, 2014)

Yeah, we know. Well, enjoy your nazi gold. I hope it brings you much happiness. As it so evidently does as you plough relentlessly through the same shit night after night.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 3, 2014)

Humberto said:


> Knowing 'stuff' does not an argument make.



It's an undeniable improvement on not knowing stuff though.


----------



## Humberto (Jan 3, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> It's an undeniable improvement on not knowing stuff though.



You do however engage in academic showboating. Stop it. I'm not buying it.


----------



## MellySingsDoom (Jan 3, 2014)

Blimey, this thread has had a few diversions.  

(Tried to post a Haaretz article, but it didn't work - sorry)


----------



## FNG (Jan 3, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Aryan racial supremacism.



By that criteria there would be no slav neo nazi's either, confident to make that claim too?

The clearly not right wing Dieudonne Hanging out with Holocaust denier Robert Faurisson








> On 26 December 2008 at an event at the Parc de la Villette in Paris, Dieudonné awarded the Holocaust denier Robert Faurisson an "insolent outcast" prize [prix de l'infréquentabilité et de l'insolence]. The award was presented by one of Dieudonné’s assistants, Jacky, dressed in a concentration camp uniform





> But if you want to say that he's an anti-semite, I can accept that.  What I don't accept is designating him "right-wing."


why so squeamish? I thought you didn't believe in such outmoded concepts as left and right?


----------



## LiamO (Jan 3, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> You've spent more time being abusive tonight than bothering to have a look for yourself. Pretty much sums up your contribution to the thread.



From policeman to Miss Jean Brodie. Well done you.

Struggling to believe you have the bare-faced cheek to post this when it describes _yourself_ perfectly... on every thread.

Except _you_ actually _do_ the reading... then come on here and abuse people instead of using your undoubted intellect to engage and enlighten to debate, illuminate, educate, disseminate. "I'm enlightened, your just a cunt"?

Shrivelled. Wizened. Frightened little man.


----------



## LiamO (Jan 3, 2014)

I would _still _like to know how the meaning of this gesture evolved. I

BA and others insist there is/_can be only_ one meaning (and after this week's events we have certainly moved a step nearer to that universal interpretation) but even a cursory reading of the webz tells me that lots of french people regarded it and widely used it as an anti-establishment 'up-yours' gesture.

Tony Parker, Sami Nasri and the others all used it in this way (or would BA allege they are anti-semites too?). Anelka obviously has far less excuse/wriggle-room on account of his personal friendship with yer man. But the fact remains that Dieudonne presented it originally as an 'anti-establishment' gesture. Has the gesture evolved as he has? Has it taken on a life of it's own.

I also saw the Spurs full-back (apparently) taking the piss out of Anelka by congratulating him on his perfect quenelle and suggesting he come do it at Spurs as it would go down so well there. Unfortunately I dont know french, much less twitter-speak french slang so I cannot fathom quite whether he was calling Anelka a silly boy (a la Paul Gascoigne) or something more sinister. Whether it was a case of 'you daft cunt' or 'you malignant cunt'. And yes... who, how and in what circumstance it is used _does_ fundamentally alter the meaning of most gestures.

I ask these things, not for pedantry, but because a cultural phenomenon that is apparently deeply anti-semetic (as all the photos show how it has been used by the Right) is also apparently seen as 'sticking it to the man' in some quarters, especially those 'down wit the yoot' en france. I can't really think of an equivalent phenomenon in britain. This is deeply disturbing and worthy of discussion.


----------



## FNG (Jan 3, 2014)

its a bit of both, when Dieudonne first used it was in a skit about dolphins having it "up to here" with humans, the up to here bit being how high they supposedly raise their flippers.
It does or rather did have currency outside neo nazi circles Tony parker apologised recently because an old photo of him making the gesture alongside Dieudonne surfaced in the wake of the Anelka controversy , at the time he made the salute he was unaware it had begun to be appropriated by neo nazis.He appologised for any offence caused and stated unreservedly that he would never make the gesture again.Sakho also made a similar appology.
I dont think it's coincidental that the gesture has been subsequently adopted by neo nazis and holocaust deniers though given how both he andhis close confident Sorrel has used it in an explicitly anti-semitic manner (sorrel on more than one occasion )and the controversy surrounding Dieudonnes films, awards ceremonies and the entire "Shoahannas" debacle


----------



## FNG (Jan 3, 2014)

As for Anelka, i guess he could be politically illiterate and solipsistic enough to believe the gesture could still be seen purely as anti-establishment,his history of contract rumbles with the FA convince him in his mind that the only interpretation possible is he to be sticking it to The Man.His personal friendship with Dieudonne, and his comments about using it as a gesture of support for him obviously muddy the waters somewhat.

 Support for what though? has Dieudonne had a particularly tough year? The impression i got was that here was a guy whose star had waned somewhat,any currency the gesture had as "hip" would be in todays climate be deciedly as trendy as your dad going "Booyaksha" or "Wuuusssup", Anelka himself approaching middle age coincidence?

fuck this post is a facking mess


----------



## cesare (Jan 3, 2014)

This really isn't rocket science.


----------



## revol68 (Jan 3, 2014)

LiamO said:


> I would _still _like to know how the meaning of this gesture evolved. I
> 
> BA and others insist there is/_can be only_ one meaning (and after this week's events we have certainly moved a step nearer to that universal interpretation) but even a cursory reading of the webz tells me that lots of french people regarded it and widely used it as an anti-establishment 'up-yours' gesture.
> 
> ...



What are you struggling to get?

At the risk of provoking Godwin's law, you do realise lots of people who got involved in Nazism at various levels (even just reproducing it's gestures, language etc) weren't out and out rabid anti semites and considered it an anti establishment movement...

The fact that some idiots doing this gesture aren't particularly anti semitic or blind to that element is hardly surprising, it goes for most political gestures or symbols across the whole ideological spectrum. Your pseudo confusion with this one is especially naive though as it comes from a guy (and a wider political milieu) that deliberately seeks to muddy the waters, to flit between explicit anti semitism and more coded "anti zionism". This is basic stuff, it's how most forms of racism and bigotry  articulate themselves.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 3, 2014)

FNG said:


> why so squeamish? I thought you didn't believe in such outmoded concepts as left and right?



I certainly don't believe in ascribing politics to people on the basis of photographs.

I seem to recall that being done to Arthur Scargill, among others.

And there's something distasteful about the impulse to identify a _person, _as opposed to an _idea, _as a Nazi/Fascist.  In certain hands it can seem sadistic, even pornographic, and not a billion miles from what the (allegedly) other lot do.

I think it's stupid to call Dieudonne a "right-winger" of any description.  The term is obviously inadequate.  Call him what he is.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 3, 2014)

revol68 said:


> This is basic stuff, it's how most forms of racism and bigotry  articulate themselves.



No it isn't.

Most forms of racism and bigotry--and all the forms we need to worry about--are perfectly open and unabashed.  

Too many people waste too much time in futile inverted McCarthyism.


----------



## revol68 (Jan 3, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> I certainly don't believe in ascribing politics to people on the basis on photographs.
> 
> I seem to recall that being done to Arthur Scargill, among others.
> 
> ...



so now the fash aren't right wing either cos y'know they had elements of left wing politics and criticisms of bourgeois democracy...

you're right about a trend to move from someone being to someone is in regards to racism or whatever though.


----------



## revol68 (Jan 3, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> No it isn't.
> 
> Most forms of racism and bigotry--and all the forms we need to worry about--are perfectly open and unabashed.
> 
> Too many people waste too much time in futile inverted McCarthyism.



ugh no they aren't, they tend to be encoded, infact the forms we really have to worry about are especially well coded.
Check out how rabid sectarianism is moved into "dual narratives" and cultural point scoring in NI.


----------



## FNG (Jan 3, 2014)

> certainly don't believe in ascribing politics to people on the basis of photographs.



try doing it based on his political statements and political affilliates then you utter dullard.

I'm oot.


----------



## cesare (Jan 3, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> No it isn't.
> 
> *Most forms of racism and bigotry--and all the forms we need to worry about--are perfectly open and unabashed. *
> 
> Too many people waste too much time in futile inverted McCarthyism.



They're really not. In the area of employment (for example) direct discrimination is much rarer than indirect.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 3, 2014)

revol68 said:


> so now the fash aren't right wing either cos y'know they had elements of left wing politics and criticisms of bourgeois democracy...



You said it, not me.

The C20th Fascists can legitimately be called "right-wing" because that was the universally accepted metaphor for conceiving politics, and it was possible to have such a universal metaphor because everyone understood that class was the prime determinant of politics--they understood it, even if they didn't like it.  Neither is true today.

The thing to do today is to isolate the truly objectionable ideas, pre-eminent among which are racism and anti-semitism.



revol68 said:


> you're right about a trend to move from someone being to someone is in regards to racism or whatever though.



Yes.  As a thought experiment, imagine what would happen to the author of _On The Jewish Question _if it was published today.


----------



## Edie (Jan 3, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> For Christians, and also that Jesus took all the sins of everyone who believed in him onto him etc
> 
> Had some mentalist street preacher ranting at me about 'when THEY put him on the crosss' last year ffs


You've got a really big chip on your shoulder about Christians.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 3, 2014)

cesare said:


> They're really not. In the area of employment (for example) direct discrimination is much rarer than indirect.



I meant in terms of organized politics.  Obviously individuals often try to conceal their bigotry.


----------



## revol68 (Jan 3, 2014)

Even in private settings the preferred form of bigotry is to prefix a disavowal, hence the "I'm not a .... but" joke.


----------



## cesare (Jan 3, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> I meant in terms of organized politics.  Obviously individuals often try to conceal their bigotry.


It applies to organised politics too. The BNP (for example) have striven for years to distance themselves from accusations of racism.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 3, 2014)

FNG said:


> try doing it based on his political statements and political affilliates then you utter dullard.



Once again, the resort to _ad hominem _signals capitulation.

I've been asking for an idea--just one--of Dieudonne's that can accurately be called "right-wing" for several days now.  Nobody can give me one.


----------



## revol68 (Jan 3, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> I meant in terms of organized politics.  Obviously individuals often try to conceal their bigotry.



Christ have you missed the rise of euronationalism, the BNP and UKIP?

They all present it as "not racism" but pragmatic concerns about immigration, cultural harmony etc etc

Sure it's not too hard to dig beneath the surface and call bullshit, just as it isn't for the "quenelle", unless you decide to be an obtuse twat because it has a wider basis than your stereotyped white skin head racist.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 3, 2014)

cesare said:


> The BNP (for example) have striven for years to distance themselves from accusations of racism.



And they're lying because?

Nobody need get angry here, btw.  

One of the weird things about this discussion is that people regularly just fly off the handle--"what, so you're calling me Fash/calling my mates Nazis/denying that obvious Nazis are Nazis/suggesting that Nazis aren't so bad... that's simply fighting talk, outside now."

Which is weird, and wouldn't have happened (for such trivial cause) in Weimar, or anywhere else where it mattered.

So with the proviso that there is no need for anger.... why wouldn't the BNP eschew racism and argue instead for racial separatism?  Seems to me that's exactly what they'd be likely to do, for both pragmatic and ideological reasons.

Now, you might certainly argue that racial separatism is in reality a form of racism.  That would be a different argument from one with an avowed racist.


----------



## bamalama (Jan 3, 2014)

revol68 said:


> And fuck off liam o you plastic padcunt, imagine baptising your kid into Catholicism cos you are a sad cunt desperate for an identity.


You posted this...imo you've no credibility in this discussion,ye bigoted wee brat


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 3, 2014)

revol68 said:


> Christ have you missed the rise of euronationalism, the BNP and UKIP?
> 
> They all present it as "not racism" but pragmatic concerns about immigration, cultural harmony etc etc
> 
> Sure it's not too hard to dig beneath the surface and call bullshit, just as it isn't for the "quenelle", unless you decide to be an obtuse twat because it has a wider basis than your stereotyped white skin head racist.



No, I've studied Third Way Fascism, Strasserism and Islamic Judeophobia quite thoroughly, thank you.

I'm convinced that "right-wing" is a stupid way to conceive any of them.  Because among many other reasons it ignores their undoubted, passionate and potentially rather useful anti-capitalism.


----------



## revol68 (Jan 3, 2014)

no because race only exists via racism, the idea of racial seperation without racism only serves to naturalise racism.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 3, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> No, I've studied Third Way Fascism, Strasserism and Islamic Judeophobia quite thoroughly, thank you.
> 
> I'm convinced that "right-wing" is a stupid way to conceive any of them.  Because among many other reasons it ignores their undoubted, passionate and potentially rather useful anti-capitalism.


perhaps you could outline how find fascism useful


----------



## revol68 (Jan 3, 2014)

bamalama said:


> You posted this...imo you've no credibility in this discussion,ye bigoted wee brat



Who are you you, some no mark.

As someone raised catholic and made to attend mass for 12 years I think I can say what i want about it and the people who help support it whilst claiming to oppose what it stands for.


----------



## revol68 (Jan 3, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> No, I've studied Third Way Fascism, Strasserism and Islamic Judeophobia quite thoroughly, thank you.
> 
> I'm convinced that "right-wing" is a stupid way to conceive any of them.  Because among many other reasons it ignores their undoubted, passionate and potentially rather useful anti-capitalism.



But the right wing has always had a kind of stunted "anti capitalism", to imagine criticism of capitalism is something alien to the right is moronic.


----------



## cesare (Jan 3, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> And they're lying because?
> 
> Nobody need get angry here, btw.
> 
> ...


So scientific racism is more acceptable than the run of the mill racism?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 3, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Q: How many academics does it take to change a lightbulb?



No one likes change. It never seems to be convenient to go through change. If one looks at education, however, many things are done the same as they may have been a hundred years ago (think lecture) even when we have had so many advances in technology. When in graduate school, I was told that the reason there was a requirement for all graduate students to take a non-credit, one-semester foreign language course was because “that is the way we have always done that.” Too often, I fear, this is the way academia works.

Take a look at the article entitled What You (Really) Need to Know written by Lawrence H. Summers in the January 20, 2012 Education section of _The New York Times_. Summers is the former president of Harvard University and a former Secretary of the Treasury. In the article, Summers wonders how university education might change in light of today’s world. He states:

Nonetheless, it is interesting to speculate: Suppose the educational system is drastically altered to reflect the structure of society and what we now understand about how people learn. How will what universities teach be different? Here are some guesses and hopes. He outlines six possible transformations in the way people learn in the university.


Focus will be more on how to process and use information and less about imparting it.
Because of the knowledge explosion, tasks will be conducted with more collaboration.
New technologies will significantly change the way knowledge is transmitted.
Technology and collaborative experiences will be used to promote dynamic or active learning.
It will be essential that the educational experience become more cosmopolitan; that students have international experiences and see examples from around the world.
Much more emphasis will be placed on the analysis of data.

I believe that we here at the University are doing some of these things now. What are your thoughts on Summers’ suggestions? How could we incorporate his ideas to increase our commitment to helping our students in their careers and their ability to contribute to society?


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 3, 2014)

revol68 said:


> But the right wing has always had a kind of stunted "anti capitalism", to imagine criticism of capitalism is something alien to the right is moronic.



It's not moronic to believe that the political divide should be determined by one's attitude to capital, rather than one's attitude to "race"--a stupid concept with no basis in science or reason.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 3, 2014)

cesare said:


> So scientific racism is more acceptable than the run of the mill racism?



Scientific racism is a contradiction in terms, as I'm sure you know.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 3, 2014)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> No one likes change.



Very good.

How many feminists does it take to change a lightbulb?


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 3, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> perhaps you could outline how find fascism useful



It keeps idiots like you busy as you hunt for it.


----------



## cesare (Jan 3, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Scientific racism is a contradiction in terms, as I'm sure you know.



Explain about this acceptable racial segregation.


----------



## bamalama (Jan 3, 2014)

revol68 said:


> Who are you you, some no mark.
> 
> As someone raised catholic and made to attend mass for 12 years I think I can say what i want about it and the people who help support it whilst claiming to oppose what it stands for on.


That you can't see what ye posted tells me all i need to know,cheers...


----------



## cesare (Jan 3, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> It's not moronic to believe that the political divide should be determined by one's attitude to capital, rather than one's attitude to "race"--a stupid concept with no basis in science or reason.



Not all anti-capitalists are political allies.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 3, 2014)

cesare said:


> Explain about this acceptable racial segregation.



See?  Weird ideological hallucinations seem to go with this territory.  

When did I suggest racial segregation was acceptable?

I didn't.  So why do you think I did?


----------



## cesare (Jan 3, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> See?  Weird ideological hallucinations seem to go with this territory.
> 
> When did I suggest racial segregation was acceptable?
> 
> I didn't.  So why do you think I did?


#812


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 3, 2014)

cesare said:


> Not all anti-capitalists are political allies.



I agree.  Neither racists nor anti-semites can be allies.  But nonracist anticapitalists who are stupidly labelled "right-wing" by those whose interest is to divide the opposition can be.

What about Timothy McVeigh?  If ever there was a straw in the wind....


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 3, 2014)

cesare said:


> #812



Doesn't say what you apparently think it says.  Jumping to conclusions.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 3, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> How many feminists does it take to change a lightbulb?



Do you think your students are gullible as well?


----------



## cesare (Jan 3, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> I agree.  Neither racists nor anti-semites can be allies.  But nonracist anticapitalists who are stupidly labelled "right-wing" by those whose interest is to divide the opposition can be.



Some examples of "nonracist anticapitalists" being?


----------



## cesare (Jan 3, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Doesn't say what you apparently think it says.  Jumping to conclusions.


Perhaps you phrased it unfortunately? Rephrase it, just for clarity, please.


----------



## FNG (Jan 3, 2014)

> Once again, the resort to _ad hominem _signals capitulation.
> 
> I've been asking for an idea--just one--of Dieudonne's that can accurately be called "right-wing" for several days now. Nobody can give me one.


ho ho ho fuck off


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 3, 2014)

revol68 said:


> no because race only exists via racism, the idea of racial seperation without racism only serves to naturalise racism.



But racial seperatism is a very different form of racism from racial supremacism.

Between the 70s and the 90s most of the "extreme right" moved from the latter to the former.

What's the point in ignoring that, or dismissing it as insignificant?


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 3, 2014)

cesare said:


> Perhaps you phrased it unfortunately? Rephrase it, just for clarity, please.



Rephrase what?  My attitude to racial segregation?  I'm against it.  Alright now?


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 3, 2014)

FNG said:


> ho ho ho fuck off



Absolutely pathetic.  And I mean that etymologically.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 3, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> But racial seperatism



'separatism'



Is that you on the other end?


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 3, 2014)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> 'separatism'



Cheers Prof.

How many feminists does it take to change a lightbulb?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 3, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> How many feminists does it take to change a lightbulb?



I don't know: how many?


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 3, 2014)

Anyway, I don't have time to do the Socratic thing today, so I'll just finish a thought here.

If you really want to argue for a massive difference between extreme "left" and extreme "right," the most promising basis on which to do so is not theoretical but empirical.  The fact that "Leftists" and "Rightists" have been kicking the crap out of each other on the streets for almost a century is indeed a powerful argument for their nonalignment.

Powerful but ultimately unpersuasive.  Young men will fight about anything.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 3, 2014)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> I don't know: how many?



That's not funny.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 3, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> That's not funny.



It's your punchline to deliver...


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 3, 2014)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> It's your punchline to deliver...



That was the fucking punchline.

I don't know why I bother sometimes.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 3, 2014)

LiamO said:


> I also saw the Spurs full-back (apparently) taking the piss out of Anelka by congratulating him on his perfect quenelle and suggesting he come do it at Spurs as it would go down so well there. Unfortunately I dont know french, much less twitter-speak french slang so I cannot fathom quite whether he was calling Anelka a silly boy (a la Paul Gascoigne) or something more sinister. Whether it was a case of 'you daft cunt' or 'you malignant cunt'. And yes... who, how and in what circumstance it is used _does_ fundamentally alter the meaning of most gestures..



You didn't even get this right. He sent Anelka a congratulation then on top of that sent the anti-semitic originator a message saying that he wanted him to come to spurs and perform it as that be would be proper lol what with spurs having the rep of being a jewish club. Another, yet another example of the behind the backs sniggering at_ hah hah look we hate jews together but they don't know_ bullshit that you seem to be having problems coming to grips with. So, get cracking on oputting that in context (millionaires not alienated banlieu dwellers - and the bloke who came up with was born into top 1% privilege, has lived it his whole life and has known nothing but that 1% privilege). You lazy lazy man. Can't be bothered to read but demands others _expand._ Then doesn't bother following the implications when they do.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 3, 2014)

LiamO said:


> I would _still _like to know how the meaning of this gesture evolved. I
> 
> BA and others insist there is/_can be only_ one meaning (and after this week's events we have certainly moved a step nearer to that universal interpretation) but even a cursory reading of the webz tells me that lots of french people regarded it and widely used it as an anti-establishment 'up-yours' gesture.
> 
> Tony Parker, Sami Nasri and the others all used it in this way (or would BA allege they are anti-semites too?). Anelka obviously has far less excuse/wriggle-room on account of his personal friendship with yer man. But the fact remains that Dieudonne presented it originally as an 'anti-establishment' gesture. Has the gesture evolved as he has? Has it taken on a life of it's own.



Aprt from me not ever arguing it only has one meaning and the people that you mention removing themselves from association with because _they _- not me - _believe it now has only only one meaning - that of anti-semitism,_ i have to congratulate you on a stunning piece of cultural interrogation _on page 27 of the thread._


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 3, 2014)

cesare said:


> Some examples of "nonracist anticapitalists" being?



Sorry, missed this earlier.  I presume you mean "examples of nonracist anticapitaists who've been stupidly branded Right-wing?"

Timothy McVeigh.

Here is an ostensibly nice, normal, well-adjusted, apolitical young chap who takes a good look around him and decides to blow up the FBI.

If I were in a position of authority, that would seriously trouble me.  There are people on this thread who should be paying attention, as opposed to mithering on about "quenelle this" and "fash that" and having silly little punch-ups.


----------



## cesare (Jan 3, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Sorry, missed this earlier.  I presume you mean "examples of nonracist anticapitaists who've been stupidly branded Right-wing?"
> 
> Timothy McVeigh.
> 
> ...


No, I meant what I asked. But by all means use my question as a vehicle for saying whatever it is you wanted to say about this McVeigh character.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 3, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> You didn't even get this right. He sent Anelka a congratulation then on top of that sent the anti-semitic originator a message saying that he wanted him to come to spurs and perform it as that be would be proper lol what with spurs having the rep of being a jewish club. Another, yet another example of the behind the backs sniggering at_ hah hah look we hate jews together but they don't know_ bullshit that you seem to be having problems coming to grips with. So, get cracking on oputting that in context (millionaires not alienated banlieu dwellers - and the bloke who came up with was born into top 1% privilege, has lived it his whole life and has known nothing but that 1% privilege). You lazy lazy man. Can't be bothered to read but demands others _expand._ Then doesn't bother following the implications when they do.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 3, 2014)

LiamO said:


> I ask these things, not for pedantry, but because a cultural phenomenon that is apparently deeply anti-semetic (as all the photos show how it has been used by the Right) is also apparently seen as 'sticking it to the man' in some quarters, especially those 'down wit the yoot' en france. I can't really think of an equivalent phenomenon in britain. This is deeply disturbing and worthy of discussion.



Yes, some of us have been trying to for a while now - on this very thread.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 3, 2014)

cesare said:


> No, I meant what I asked.



You seriously need examples of nonracist anticapitalists?


----------



## cesare (Jan 3, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> You seriously need examples of nonracist anticapitalists?


Yes.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 3, 2014)

cesare said:


> Yes.



Butchersapron.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 3, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> It keeps idiots like you busy as you hunt for it.


so, despite your declaration that you find aspects of e.g. third way fascism useful, you do not care to discuss them. i wonder why not.


----------



## elbows (Jan 3, 2014)

LiamO said:


> Definitely not looking for a row here but is the author actually claiming that there is some new research/evidence that claims there was no extermination at Auschwitz?



First I got distracted by what 'officially' even means in this context. Then I got distracted by the tons of steaming shite that the author, Gordon Duff, has come out with elsewhere. Wikileaks and Snowden painted as simple tools of Israel for a start. I don't think I'll bother exploring further.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 3, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Anyway, I don't have time to do the Socratic thing today, so I'll just finish a thought here.
> 
> If you really want to argue for a massive difference between extreme "left" and extreme "right," the most promising basis on which to do so is not theoretical but empirical.  The fact that "Leftists" and "Rightists" have been kicking the crap out of each other on the streets for almost a century is indeed a powerful argument for their nonalignment.
> 
> Powerful but ultimately unpersuasive.  Young men will fight about anything.


the fact that police and workers have been kicking the crap out of each other on the streets for more than a century is indeed a powerful argument for their non-alignment. the fact that arabs and israelis have been kicking the crap out of each other for more than 65 years is indeed a powerful argument for their non-alignment. i'm not sure your powerful argument works.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 3, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> That was the fucking punchline.
> 
> I don't know why I bother sometimes.


i don't know why you bother any of the time.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Jan 3, 2014)

It's not so much being anti-capitalist as what you'd want to replace it with that matters IMO.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 3, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Anyway, I don't have time to do the Socratic thing today, so I'll just finish a thought here.
> 
> If you really want to argue for a massive difference between extreme "left" and extreme "right," the most promising basis on which to do so is not theoretical but empirical.  The fact that "Leftists" and "Rightists" have been kicking the crap out of each other on the streets for almost a century is indeed a powerful argument for their nonalignment.
> 
> Powerful but ultimately unpersuasive.  Young men will fight about anything.


yes because all young men a) fight b) fight about anything. sadly not the case. and another fail: it's not like all fascists or all communists or all anarchists are young men up for a scrap. you're full of fail.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 3, 2014)

SpineyNorman said:


> It's not so much being anti-capitalist as what you'd want to replace it with that matters IMO.



Yes, that is an important difference between us.

I take the view that no-one can know what will emerge out of a revolution, and that is is therefore futile to enter one with a blueprinted alternative system.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 3, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> it's not like all fascists or all communists or all anarchists are young men up for a scrap.



The ones who scrap are.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 3, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Yes, that is an important difference between us.
> 
> I take the view that no-one can know what will emerge out of a revolution, and that is is therefore futile to enter one with a blueprinted alternative system.


no one except for you is saying anything about a blueprinted alternative system. it's simple enough even a lackwit like you ought to be able to comprehend it: if you're against capitalism, you can replace it with something better for people or something worse for people. some anti-capitalists will opt for the former, others for the latter. this doesn't mean a fully planned system exists in people's minds to replace capitalism. it does mean that people know the general gist of what they want.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 3, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> The ones who scrap are.


again, you're full of fail: many people who fight do so against people who aren't entirely up for a scrap - it's safer that way, to fight someone who isn't up for hitting back.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 3, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> again, you're full of fail: many people who fight do so against people who aren't entirely up for a scrap - it's safer that way, to fight someone who isn't up for hitting back.



Someone who isn't up for scrapping in other words, exactly as I said.

Anyway, the point is that many young men on both sides see scrapping as an end in itself, and do not greatly care for or against whom they scrap.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 3, 2014)

Edie, I know most aren't like that, it's because (mostly) of the crap that was forced down my throat as a kid at a christian school, I know for a fact most aren't like it though. I never wanted to offend you


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 3, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> people know the general gist of what they want.



Hahaha.  Fool.

General Gist:


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 3, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> full of fail:.


Full of Fail. Sounds like a place that would be just south of Lindisfarne. Or maybe the Vale of Tears.

What does it mean, anyway: 'You're wrong'?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 3, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Someone who isn't up for scrapping in other words, exactly as I said.
> 
> Anyway, the point is that many young men on both sides see scrapping as an end in itself, and do not greatly care for or against whom they scrap.


and your evidence: your own prejudices.


----------



## Edie (Jan 3, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Edie, I know most aren't like that, it's because (mostly) of the crap that was forced down my throat as a kid at a christian school, I know for a fact most aren't like it though. I never wanted to offend you


You've not offended me mate, I just wondered if you were even aware that a lot of your posts about Christianity sound scathing. You've good reason for all I know anyway.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 3, 2014)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> Full of Fail. Sounds like a place that would be just south of Lindisfarne. Or maybe the Vale of Tears.
> 
> What does it mean, anyway: 'You're wrong'?



It's a particularly objectionable element of late capitalist relativism, here effortlessly reflected by our local Fool.  

The idea seems to be that every statement is performative--as opposed to declarative--and can thus be adjudged "successful" or "unsuccessful" as opposed to "true" or "false."


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 3, 2014)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> Full of Fail. Sounds like a place that would be just south of Lindisfarne. Or maybe the Vale of Tears.
> 
> What does it mean, anyway: 'You're wrong'?


rather stronger than that


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 3, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> and your evidence: your own prejudices.



No, the evidence is that everyone knows that many young men like scrapping for its own sake.  If you don't know that, you were never a young man.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 3, 2014)

Edie said:


> You've not offended me mate, I just wondered if you were even aware that a lot of your posts about Christianity sound scathing. You've good reason for all I know anyway.



I do have my reasons, can't really talk about them all here. The main one is the heaven and hell thing though, I just can't get over it especially when some people are so hypocritical about what they believe, for them to start going on about hell? No. There are plenty of problems in Judaism as well, by all means criticize what's taught in it because some of it is also a load of bollocks.


----------



## Edie (Jan 3, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> I do have my reasons, can't really talk about them all here. The main one is the heaven and hell thing though, I just can't get over it especially when some people are so hypocritical about what they believe, for them to start going on about hell? No. There are plenty of problems in Judaism as well, by all means criticize what's taught in it because some of it is also a load of bollocks.


Tbh I'd rather just leave other peoples beliefs alone


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 3, 2014)

Edie said:


> Tbh I'd rather just leave other peoples beliefs alone



It's not only the beliefs though, it's what some people do about it too sadly.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 3, 2014)

Edie said:


> Tbh I'd rather just leave other peoples beliefs alone


What if you think those beliefs are anti Christian?


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 3, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> the fact that police and workers have been kicking the crap out of each other on the streets for more than a century is indeed a powerful argument for their non-alignment. the fact that arabs and israelis have been kicking the crap out of each other for more than 65 years is indeed a powerful argument for their non-alignment. i'm not sure your powerful argument works.



Look at it this way.

When you see, as one often does, the fans of Cardiff City brawling with the fans of Swansea City, do you conclude that these groups of young men must have completely divergent interests and utterly irreconcilable differences?

Or do you rather conclude that their brawling indicates a shared mentality, similar tastes and virtually indistinguishable interests?

That's how I see Commies v. Fash.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 3, 2014)

Humberto said:


> JESUS is synonymous with loving your neighbour.



The dirty little fucker!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 3, 2014)

Humberto said:


> And I thought it was a requirement that you had to have Jewish anscestry to be a convert to judaism. And apparently its not but there is loads of discrimination?



Not "loads", but certainly enough by some people who should know better, given their usual obsessiveness with interpreting scripture.


----------



## Edie (Jan 3, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> What if you think those beliefs are anti Christian?


I think a persons in dangerous territory being "anti" any religious beliefs. Who are they to say what's true or not for another?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 3, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> No, it says so in the new testament. I am not quite sure where you're getting this stuff?



Here's a hint: From somewhere just behind him, slightly below waist-level.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 3, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Look at it this way.
> 
> When you see, as one often does, the fans of Cardiff City brawling with the fans of Swansea City, do you conclude that these groups of young men must have completely divergent interests and utterly irreconcilable differences?
> 
> ...



The difference is that communism in theory is about creating a classless society, workers standing up for their rights etc. Fascism isn't


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 3, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> The difference is that communism in theory



Ah yes.  I love being in theory.

Practice, not so much.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 3, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> No, the evidence is that everyone knows that many young men like scrapping for its own sake.  If you don't know that, you were never a young man.


you're making a rather different claim here, that everyone knows that many young men like fighting for its own sake, which is rather different than your earlier assertion that "young men will fight about anything". why the changes?


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 3, 2014)

Edie said:


> I think a persons in dangerous territory being "anti" any religious beliefs. Who are they to say what's true or not for another?



Nah, I disagree there. There are beliefs that have caused loads of damage and were justified on a religious basis. What about the christian identity churches in the southern US that think that god has forbidden black people to join because of their interpretation of the bible saying god commanded white people to be racist? Or settlers in the west bank thinking that God told them to destroy amalek who they think are Palestinians?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 3, 2014)

Edie said:


> I think a persons in dangerous territory being "anti" any religious beliefs. Who are they to say what's true or not for another?


where do you stand on satanists?


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 3, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> where do you stand on satanists?




I stand on them at fetish clubs


----------



## Edie (Jan 3, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> where do you stand on satanists?


I don't really think they exist 


frogwoman said:


> Nah, I disagree there. There are beliefs that have caused loads of damage and were justified on a religious basis. What about the christian identity churches in the southern US that think that god has forbidden black people to join because of their interpretation of the bible saying god commanded white people to be racist? Or settlers in the west bank thinking that God told them to destroy amalek who they think are Palestinians?


Theres a distinction between thought and belief and action eh.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 3, 2014)

Edie said:


> I think a persons in dangerous territory being "anti" any religious beliefs. Who are they to say what's true or not for another?


You just said that they can believe what they want and their beliefs should be left alone. Minutes after challenging a poster for what you thought are beliefs you disagree with. You either believe what you say and act on it, or you don't, in which case then you have no grounds on which to attack people for being anti Christian.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 3, 2014)

Edie said:


> I don't really think they exist
> 
> Theres a distinction between thought and belief and action eh.



If someone is being indoctrinated each week to believe that Palestinians are a nation that god commanded them to destroy and that the land of Israel exclusively belongs to the Jews then how is that going to affect how they behave when they see a real Palestinian? Especially since their racism is what GOD HIMSELF has told them to do? Do you really think there's no connection between beliefs and actions?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 3, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> No it isn't.
> 
> Most forms of racism and bigotry--and all the forms we need to worry about--are perfectly open and unabashed.
> 
> Too many people waste too much time in futile inverted McCarthyism.



Most forms of racism and bigotry have masked as well as open forms, expecially where "institutional" bigotries are practiced.


----------



## Edie (Jan 3, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> You just said that they can believe what they want and their beliefs should be left alone. Minutes after challenging a poster for what you thought are beliefs you disagree with. You either believe what you say and act on it, or you don't, in which case then you have no grounds on which to attack people for being anti Christian.


Frogwoman is entitled to her opinions about Christian beliefs. I think she should be aware when she's expressing them not to sound scathing though.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 3, 2014)

Edie said:


> Frogwoman is entitled to her opinions about Christian beliefs. I think she should be aware when she's expressing them not to sound scathing though.


You being the judge of that and the enforcer of the judgement. Of course, this sort of weak attack on her and others beliefs counts as leaving them alone.


----------



## elbows (Jan 3, 2014)

I certainly have every intention of sounding scathing about specific Christian beliefs that homosexuals are unnatural sinners, or specific islamic beliefs that condemn women to subservient roles, etc.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 3, 2014)

Edie said:


> You've got a really big chip on your shoulder about Christians.



Edie, some cunt comes up to you on the street and gives you some stick that includes references to "your" people and their supposed historic crimes, and you've got every right to think that people who do that - i.e. preachy Christian street-ranters in this case - are cunts.

However:
a) That doesn't mean you've "got a chip on your shoulder about Christians", or
b) That you've got any _animus_ against other faiths at all.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 3, 2014)

Edie said:


> I don't really think they exist
> 
> Theres a distinction between thought and belief and action eh.



Well earlier up the thread I was saying how some Christians today think that before Jesus, non-jews couldn't pray to God, couldn't get to heaven etc. If they believe that shit about the Jews of the past do you not think it might influence how they see Jews today and what they think the religion says on these matters?


----------



## elbows (Jan 3, 2014)

I also have a problem with the idea that faiths and beliefs should not be attacked because of the great comfort and strength they can provide to the faithful. Because the same logic can be applied to, for example, anti-semitism. I'm sure many an anti-semite gets comfort and strength from having a nice simple explanation for the ills of the world and the problems they've faced in their own life.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 3, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> I meant in terms of organized politics.  Obviously individuals often try to conceal their bigotry.



You're kidding.  Post-Thatcher Toryism is all about trying to conceal bigotry behind various veneers of policy, as is Blairism and post-Blairism to some extent.


----------



## Edie (Jan 3, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> You being the judge of that and the enforcer of the judgement. Of course, this sort of weak attack on her and others beliefs counts as leaving them alone.


Listen we live in a world where people have an enormous range of beliefs. I think it's perfectly acceptable to both express and challenge beliefs but I'd say it should be done with respect and not from a starting position of assuming you're right and the other person is wrong when it comes to religious beliefs. Is that hippy bullshit? Maybe. But tolerance is pretty important.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 3, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Once again, the resort to _ad hominem _signals capitulation.
> 
> I've been asking for an idea--just one--of Dieudonne's that can accurately be called "right-wing" for several days now.  Nobody can give me one.



TBF, calling you a "dullard" isn't an _ad hominem_ so much as it is an attempt at elucidating your defining feature.


----------



## Edie (Jan 3, 2014)

elbows said:


> I also have a problem with the idea that faiths and beliefs should not be attacked because of the great comfort and strength they can provide to the faithful. Because the same logic can be applied to, for example, anti-semitism. I'm sure many an anti-semite gets comfort and strength from having a nice simple explanation for the ills of the world and the problems they've faced in their own life.


Why 'attack' another's religion ffs. Just fucking mind your own business.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 3, 2014)

Edie said:


> Frogwoman is entitled to her opinions about Christian beliefs. I think she should be aware when she's expressing them not to sound scathing though.


I'll be as scathing  as I like. Sorry but I find much of what is said in the new testament really objectionable. And if someone starts giving me a lecture about how 'they' put Jesus on the cross and how everything that happened to the Jews was our fault because it was in a biblical prophecy, that homosexuality is a sin and gay marriage shouldn't be allowed to exist, then I think having been exposed to that stuff gives me the right to think and say what I want tbh.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 3, 2014)

Edie said:


> Listen we live in a world where people have an enormous range of beliefs. I think it's perfectly acceptable to both express and challenge beliefs but I'd say it should be done with respect and not from a starting position of assuming you're right and the other person is wrong when it comes to religious beliefs. Is that hippy bullshit? Maybe. But tolerance is pretty important.



So why couldn't the street-preacher ranting at froggie see that?
See, this is a problem with most organised religions, Edie: Some followers have a tendency to assume that they *do* come from a "starting position of being right", and Christianity being a proselytising religion (i.e. followers go out to garner converts) means that there can be a lot of zealous, single-minded Christians walking around in Europe and the US, shouting the odds for their various sects and cults.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 3, 2014)

Edie said:


> Listen we live in a world where people have an enormous range of beliefs. I think it's perfectly acceptable to both express and challenge beliefs but I'd say it should be done with respect and not from a starting position of assuming you're right and the other person is wrong when it comes to religious beliefs. Is that hippy bullshit? Maybe. But tolerance is pretty important.



I don't think I'm right and the other person is wrong. I WANT people to tell me I'm talking shit.


----------



## Edie (Jan 3, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> I don't think I'm right and the other person is wrong. I WANT people to tell me I'm talking shit.


Ok, well a lot of what you say about Christians is shit


----------



## Edie (Jan 3, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> I'll be as scathing  as I like. Sorry but I find much of what is said in the new testament really objectionable. And if someone starts giving me a lecture about how 'they' put Jesus on the cross and how everything that happened to the Jews was our fault because it was in a biblical prophecy, that homosexuality is a sin and gay marriage shouldn't be allowed to exist, then I think having been exposed to that stuff gives me the right to think and say what I want tbh.


Jesus WAS a Jew for goodness sake.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 3, 2014)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> Do you think your students are gullible as well?



Edited because hey, why be a cunt?


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 3, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> So why couldn't the street-preacher ranting at froggie see that?
> See, this is a problem with most organised religions, Edie: Some followers have a tendency to assume that they *do* come from a "starting position of being right", and Christianity being a proselytising religion (i.e. followers go out to garner converts) means that there can be a lot of zealous, single-minded Christians walking around in Europe and the US, shouting the odds for their various sects and cults.




one of the more nauseating US christian phrases for this is 'Soul winning'. Fucking permanent war,losses gains victory/defeat...always so binary.

in use here is the much less objectionable word 'evangelising'

dunno why the former annoys more than the latter really.


----------



## Greebo (Jan 3, 2014)

ViolentPanda give it a rest.  1) it's too easy 2) it's a very low blow 3) using things from elsewhere to get at him (no matter how much he might deserve it) on here isn't on.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 3, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> So why couldn't the street-preacher ranting at froggie see that?
> See, this is a problem with most organised religions, Edie: Some followers have a tendency to assume that they *do* come from a "starting position of being right", and Christianity being a proselytising religion (i.e. followers go out to garner converts) means that there can be a lot of zealous, single-minded Christians walking around in Europe and the US, shouting the odds for their various sects and cults.



The thing is that you're talking about respect for others beliefs but the whole point is that some people's beliefs don't respect others. And some of what is said is just wrong and really offensive, like the idea that the Jews killed Jesus and that sort of shit, you may not believe that but plenty of people do and that has an effect on how they behave. After all god himself has said that the Jews are a den of vipers and the blood is on them snd all that other shit and that's going to have an effect when they come across people in everyday life and how they treat them and their general political outlook.
Edie
I'm really sorry you think I'm attacking all Christians, I really never wanted to upset you. I've tried to make clear that most people DON'T believe this stuff and are just normal people, the same as most Jews don't believe the bollocks about amalek and Palestinians, unfortunately some do.


----------



## TruXta (Jan 3, 2014)

Just like anti-semitic and racist ideas and the people that convey them need attacking, so any religious idea that clearly leads to misery and violence needs attacking. I don't see how this is controversial at all.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 3, 2014)

Edie said:


> Jesus WAS a Jew for goodness sake.



Yeah, I know. It doesn't change the fact this is what SOME people think and given that these kinds of attitudes have actually led to such awful results and given that these beliefs had such a huge impact on the development of antisemitism, homophobia etc in western culture I think I've got every right to slag them off if they're going to use God and religion to piously say that saying this shit is all right. Same goes for Jewish fundamentalists thinking whatever they think, I actually think discouraging criticism of/within religions is really dangerous.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 3, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> one of the more nauseating US christian phrases for this is 'Soul winning'. Fucking permanent war,losses gains victory/defeat...always so binary.
> 
> in use here is the much less objectionable word 'evangelising'
> 
> dunno why the former annoys more than the latter really.



Because the latter is an injunction in the New Testament (or so I believe), that asks believers to go forth and "spread the good news", whereas the former is a mechanistic process of garnering numbers of souls for the chosen deity - fulfill your quota for the day/week/month/year and the pastor gives you a celestial Brownie point to add to your "going to Heaven" score - or some such?


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 3, 2014)

Edie said:


> Ok, well a lot of what you say about Christians is shit



I know you plus most others don't believe this.


----------



## TruXta (Jan 3, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Because the latter is an injunction in the New Testament (or so I believe), that asks believers to go forth and "spread the good news", whereas the former is a mechanistic process of garnering numbers of souls for the chosen deity - fulfill your quota for the day/week/month/year and the pastor gives you a celestial Brownie point to add to your "going to Heaven" score - or some such?


The vicars' KPIs?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 3, 2014)

TruXta said:


> Just like anti-semitic and racist ideas and the people that convey them need attacking, so any religious idea that clearly leads to misery and violence needs attacking. I don't see how this is controversial at all.



It isn't controversial, except perhaps to a controversialist, IYSWIM.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 3, 2014)

TruXta said:


> The vicars' KPI's?


the vicars' kpi's what?


----------



## TruXta (Jan 3, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> It isn't controversial, except perhaps to a controversialist, IYSWIM.


I need another cup of coffee I think. Need to up my controversy levels.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 3, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Because the latter is an injunction in the New Testament (or so I believe), that asks believers to go forth and "spread the good news", whereas the former is a mechanistic process of garnering numbers of souls for the chosen deity - fulfill your quota for the day/week/month/year and the pastor gives you a celestial Brownie point to add to your "going to Heaven" score - or some such?



posibly. It also reminds me of the loony end baptist/us influenced stuff about a constant spiritual war going on. Demons under the bed. The penalties for not being christian and not accepting jesus. All the shit that scared me as a child when its really a product of one nuerotic strand of one sub division of one faith. Onwards christian fucking soldier.


----------



## TruXta (Jan 3, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> the vicars' kpi's what?


My bad, one apostrophe too many.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 3, 2014)

TruXta said:


> The vicars' KPI's?



Those too! Can't get a foot on the ladder to an evangelical equivalent of a bishopric without bringing in those souls!


----------



## TruXta (Jan 3, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> posibly. It also reminds me of the loony end baptist/us influenced stuff about a constant spiritual war going on. Demons under the bed. The penalties for not being christian and not accepting jesus. All the shit that scared me as a child when its really a product of one nuerotic strand of one sub division of one faith. Onwards christian fucking soldier.


It's not just the baptists IIRC, the pentecostals and Jehovah's Witnesses are dipping their toes in that water too.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 3, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> posibly. It also reminds me of the loony end baptist/us influenced stuff about a constant spiritual war going on. Demons under the bed. The penalties for not being christian and not accepting jesus. All the shit that scared me as a child when its really a product of one nuerotic strand of one sub division of one faith. Onwards christian fucking soldier.



This is what fucked me off about the evangelist I was stuck working with - it was all so stark, and so far away from the whole "prince of peace" _schtick_ that's more the norm in religious education about Christianity in the UK that the fact of violent fundamentalism was really a bit scary.


----------



## xslavearcx (Jan 3, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> Onwards christian fucking soldier.



i prefer this myself..


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 3, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> TBF, calling you a "dullard" isn't an _ad hominem_ so much as it is an attempt at elucidating your defining feature.


calling dwyer a dullard is unkind to dullards.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 3, 2014)

xslavearcx said:


> i prefer this myself..


----------



## xslavearcx (Jan 3, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


>


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 3, 2014)




----------



## xslavearcx (Jan 3, 2014)

Off topic: but forgot just how WOW stryper are!!!


----------



## Edie (Jan 3, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> calling dwyer a dullard is unkind to dullards.


You can say many things about Phil, but he's definately not dull.


----------



## xslavearcx (Jan 3, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


>




nah if we are gonna go down this route we do this:


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 3, 2014)

Edie said:


> You can say many things about Phil, but he's definately not dull.


he is a bit, er, blinkered in his outlook


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 3, 2014)

TruXta said:


> It's not just the baptists IIRC, the pentecostals and Jehovah's Witnesses are dipping their toes in that water too.




and yet for some reason I still really enjoy Pilgrims Progress. I most identify with the slough of despond tbf.


----------



## TruXta (Jan 3, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> and yet for some reason I still really enjoy Pilgrims Progress. I most identify with the slough of despond tbf.


Never read it.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 3, 2014)

xslavearcx said:


> nah if we are gonna go down this route we do this:


----------



## fogbat (Jan 3, 2014)

Respect other people's beliefs. But only if they're religious beliefs.


----------



## xslavearcx (Jan 3, 2014)

:mustrefrainfrompostinghunnersofdeathmetal:


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 3, 2014)

fogbat said:


> Respect other people's beliefs. But only if they're religious beliefs.


so, the more barking people's beliefs are the more they should be respected?


----------



## xslavearcx (Jan 3, 2014)

fogbat said:


> Respect other people's beliefs. But only if they're religious beliefs.



think hes making the point that religious belief respect advocates often have the tendency to allow forceful critique of all belief systems out there barring their own..


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 3, 2014)

TruXta said:


> Never read it.




its good- Bunyan. I think why its gained ground as such a 'canon' prod text is because of the whole personal responsibility thing- although old Pilgrim is happy to dump his wife and kids to go on his own penance journey!

that aside it stands as a good fantasy, even if its a bit dodge. One of those like 'Screwtape proposes a toast'  type ones where the message is disagreed with by me but the writing is good.


----------



## Edie (Jan 3, 2014)

fogbat said:


> Respect other people's beliefs. But only if they're religious beliefs.


You have to consider the alternative fogbat.


----------



## TruXta (Jan 3, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> its good- Bunyan. I think why its gained ground as such a 'canon' prod text is because of the whole personal responsibility thing- although old Pilgrim is happy to dump his wife and kids to go on his own penance journey!
> 
> that aside it stands as a good fantasy, even if its a bit dodge. One of those like 'Screwtape proposes a toast'  type ones where the message is disagreed with by me but the writing is good.


Maybe one for my dotage.


----------



## Greebo (Jan 3, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Edited because hey, why be a cunt?


Thank you.


----------



## xslavearcx (Jan 3, 2014)

xslavearcx said:


> :mustrefrainfrompostinghunnersofdeathmetal:



its funny when i went through the growing my hair long and calling myself a satanist whilst being a vegetarian phase my staunchly catholic family rolled their eyes and gave a collective sigh... when i became a fundamentalist muslim though....


----------



## elbows (Jan 3, 2014)

Edie said:


> Why 'attack' another's religion ffs. Just fucking mind your own business.



When people use their beliefs as justification for attacking others, for preaching hate and intolerance, then I consider it very much everyones business.

I am capable of a gentle and compassionate appreciation of the idea of respecting others personal beliefs. But in practice this cannot offer the faithful a complete shield against their beliefs being questioned. Because beliefs do not remain in the personal realm, they have an impact on society, its accepted norms, customs and laws. And it is used to justify many things, including the unjustifiable. Silence and impotent respect in the face of this is unacceptable.

Its a difficult balancing act and it can be very hard to get right. Over the last decade+ I have been rather unimpressed with the tone of certain attacks against muslims for example, including the language used and the calls to use force to bring about change. This includes things like certain Question Time performances by the likes of Clive James who is, it seems, extremely well respected in most other regards. The ouster of Morsi in Egypt was certainly an opportunity to put some of this stuff to the test, it made it easy for some to cheer the coup or turn a blind eye to slaughter.


----------



## TruXta (Jan 3, 2014)

elbows said:


> When people use their beliefs as justification for attacking others, for preaching hate and intolerance, then I consider it very much everyones business.
> 
> I am capable of a gentle and compassionate appreciation of the idea of respecting others personal beliefs. But in practice this cannot offer the faithful a complete shield against their beliefs being questioned. Because beliefs do not remain in the personal realm, they have an impact on society, its accepted norms, customs and laws. And it is used to justify many things, including the unjustifiable. Silence and impotent respect in the face of this is unacceptable.
> 
> Its a difficult balancing act and it can be very hard to get right. Over the last decade+ I have been rather unimpressed with the tone of certain attacks against muslims for example, including the language used and the calls to use force to bring about change. This includes things like certain Question Time performances by the likes of Clive James who is, it seems, extremely well respected in most other regards. The ouster of Morsi in Egypt was certainly an opportunity to put some of this stuff to the test, it made it easy for some to cheer the coup or turn a blind eye to slaughter.



Personally I like to think it's possible to have the utmost respect for the fact that others have beliefs that I, as a non-believer, consider untrue (i.e. there is a god/gods/goddesses/whatever). That doesn't extend to the contents of those beliefs if I believe them harmful to others.


----------



## Fedayn (Jan 3, 2014)

Edie said:


> Why 'attack' another's religion ffs. Just fucking mind your own business.



When religion has been used, and still is, to justify racism, homophobia, slavery, physical and sexual abuse of your partner, female genital mutilation, male circumcision, sexism etc etc what reason would you not attack it?


----------



## xslavearcx (Jan 3, 2014)

elbows said:


> When people use their beliefs as justification for attacking others, for preaching hate and intolerance, then I consider it very much everyones business.



Thats it, i mean at the end of the day, metaphysical beliefs on their own are pretty inconsquential to how things operate in society, and i think if someones whole sense of existential telos is tied to such metaphyiscal beliefs, then its just plain nasty-ness to put them under attack. i mean, just see what happens when you deconstruct before their very eyes the very thing that gives a person a reason for getting up in the morning - it aint nice....

the problem with religions in general is that such metaphysical beliefs are generally conjoined onto certain social attitudes and it is in that domain that it is right and proper that people get held accountable for that. And i guess insofar as such social attitudes are predicated on the theology then i guess the theology has to be under scruitiny as well, unless of course they desist from articulating their theology onto the social realm.

i should also say that religious prosletyisers often are in the buisness of attacking deeply held metaphysical propositions of other religions that are conjoined onto their sense of existential purpose. and thats whats real nasty about religious prosletysing discourse, that it often involves a savage attack upon the very reasons why people get up in the morning.... all one needs to do is walk into certain churches and mosques etc and see leaflets that engage in that kinda buisness...


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 3, 2014)

nail them all up and let god sort them out


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 3, 2014)

Edie said:


> You have to consider the alternative fogbat.



The alternative being a society like Saudi Arabia where 'respecting' religious views is mandatory even when those views involve beheading people for adultery etc because its part of their beliefs, hey why not. And religious critique is how all religions came about.

 And I'm sorry but in another thread you said that thinking that only good people go to heaven and paedophiles and the like wouldn't was horrible and judging who is worthy of God's love, I don't have a problem with you thinking that because fair enough, its part of Christianity that all who believe shall be able to get redemption etc, but the idea of heaven being for good people only no matter what they believe, is one of the major features of Judaism as opposed to Christianity. I don't have a problem with people criticizing that, in some ways it's fair enough and I'm not sure what I think about it, but then again its a bit hypocritical for you to turn round and say that I can't criticize religious beliefs when you did the same? Anyway I think you're sound and I didn't want to upset you, I'm just saying?


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 3, 2014)

TruXta said:


> Personally I like to think it's possible to have the utmost respect for the fact that others have beliefs that I, as a non-believer, consider untrue (i.e. there is a god/gods/goddesses/whatever). That doesn't extend to the contents of those beliefs if I believe them harmful to others.



Exactly.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 3, 2014)

Edie said:


> Why 'attack' another's religion ffs. Just fucking mind your own business.


Like you just didn't!  You seen to me to be claiming special protection for your views, both to protect them from attack and to allow you to attack others.


----------



## xslavearcx (Jan 3, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> The alternative being a society like Saudi Arabia where 'respecting' religious views is mandatory even when those views involve beheading people for adultery etc because its part of their beliefs, hey why not. And religious critique is how all religions came about.
> 
> And I'm sorry but in another thread you said that thinking that only good people go to heaven and paedophiles and the like wouldn't was horrible and judging who is worthy of God's love, I don't have a problem with you thinking that because fair enough, its part of Christianity that all who believe shall be able to get redemption etc, but the idea of heaven being for good people only no matter what they believe, is one of the major features of Judaism as opposed to Christianity. I don't have a problem with people criticizing that, in some ways it's fair enough and I'm not sure what I think about it, but then again its a bit hypocritical for you to turn round and say that I can't criticize religious beliefs when you did the same? Anyway I think you're sound and I didn't want to upset you, I'm just saying?



I think what tends to happen is that there is the official theology that one 'officially' assents to, and then there is ones personal interpretation of that theology that is generally a bit more universal in the salvation plan than what the religion itself might demand. (that being said even within religions, there can be multiple interpretations like for instance the quibbling over that verse that has both "my fathers masion has many rooms" and "no one comes to the father except through me"...)

 Then again theres the more hardcore believers that are like, everybody is fucked except the wee church of 26 people that i am a part of


----------



## xslavearcx (Jan 3, 2014)

xslavearcx said:


> Then again theres the more hardcore believers that are like, everybody is fucked except the wee church of 26 people that i am a part of



I've met people back in the day who are dead blase about the idea that their close relatives are going to hell (like siblings, children and partners etc). I mean they still love em, but they are getting hellfire - pretty mental how people can hold that shit together


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 3, 2014)

Edie said:


> You have to consider the alternative fogbat.



There is no "alternative fogbat"! He's unique!!!


Thank fuck!!!


----------



## TruXta (Jan 3, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> There is no "alternative fogbat"! He's unique!!!
> 
> 
> Thank fuck!!!


Maybe there is one out there with normal-sized hands?


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 3, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Post-Thatcher Toryism is all about trying to conceal bigotry behind various veneers of policy, as is Blairism and post-Blairism to some extent.



I disagree.

I think that all Thatcher, Blair et al care about is profit.  They'll be bigots for exactly as long as it is profitable, and not one second longer.  

And at present, bigotry is bad for business.  If it were good for business you may be sure it would be officially encouraged.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 3, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> The alternative being a society like Saudi Arabia where 'respecting' religious views is mandatory



You wot?


----------



## xslavearcx (Jan 3, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> You wot?



try distributing the text and then i was guided in saudi arabia  which gives an excellent case for the truth of 12er shiism based on sunni canonical sources, and see what happens


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 3, 2014)

xslavearcx said:


> try distributing the text and then i was guided in saudi arabia  which gives an excellent case for the truth of 12er shiism based on sunni canonical sources, and see what happens



Innit.  SA is probably the least tolerant nation on earth.


----------



## xslavearcx (Jan 3, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Innit.  SA is probably the least tolerant nation on earth.



to be fair, iran with its crimes of wahhabism, and its "we are tolerant of other brands of islam", but there happens to be no sunni mosque in tehran, probably doesnt fare much better.

eta - seems iran have changed their policy towards sunni worship..

http://www.hrw.org/news/2013/11/09/iran-lift-restrictions-sunni-worship


----------



## Edie (Jan 3, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> The alternative being a society like Saudi Arabia where 'respecting' religious views is mandatory even when those views involve beheading people for adultery etc because its part of their beliefs, hey why not. And religious critique is how all religions came about.
> 
> And I'm sorry but in another thread you said that thinking that only good people go to heaven and paedophiles and the like wouldn't was horrible and judging who is worthy of God's love, I don't have a problem with you thinking that because fair enough, its part of Christianity that all who believe shall be able to get redemption etc, but the idea of heaven being for good people only no matter what they believe, is one of the major features of Judaism as opposed to Christianity. I don't have a problem with people criticizing that, in some ways it's fair enough and I'm not sure what I think about it, but then again its a bit hypocritical for you to turn round and say that I can't criticize religious beliefs when you did the same? Anyway I think you're sound and I didn't want to upset you, I'm just saying?


Respecting views does not mean agreeing, or condoning actions that result from those beliefs eg beheading. It doesn't even mean not questioning them or challenging them. It just means being able to listen and consider the argument without saying its ridiculous from the outset. 

Did I really say paedophiles would definitely not go to heaven? If I did then I shouldn't of. Tbh in the last 6 months my views about faith, religion and God have been really shaken up and I'm still finding my way on a very new path of understanding with it all.

Stop worrying about offending me btw. We know each other better than that.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 3, 2014)

TruXta said:


> Maybe there is one out there with normal-sized hands?



Normal-sized to *us*, freakishly large and unwieldy to the _Ur_-fogbat!


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 3, 2014)

I agree with you there. And I meant that in Saudi Arabia it is mandatory to respect the religious views of one religion and never do anything to challenge it.


----------



## Edie (Jan 3, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> I agree with you there. And I meant that in Saudi Arabia it is mandatory to respect the religious views of one religion and never do anything to challenge it.


But that's in effect the opposite of what I'm saying  Odd example.


----------



## xslavearcx (Jan 3, 2014)

Edie said:


> Respecting views does not mean agreeing, or condoning actions that result from those beliefs eg beheading. It doesn't even mean not questioning them or challenging them. It just means being able to listen and consider the argument without saying its ridiculous from the outset.
> 
> Did I really say paedophiles would definitely not go to heaven? If I did then I shouldn't of. Tbh in the last 6 months my views about faith, religion and God have been really shaken up and I'm still finding my way on a very new path of understanding with it all.
> 
> Stop worrying about offending me btw. We know each other better than that.



Sorry to take this off topic, but how are you finding the whole looking into things, discussing it with religious peeps, and them trying to get you into their denomination? I found that part hellish, felt like i was pissing people off right left and centre when it turned out that this particular branch wasnt for me....


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 3, 2014)

Edie said:


> Respecting views does not mean agreeing, or condoning actions that result from those beliefs eg beheading. It doesn't even mean not questioning them or challenging them. It just means being able to listen and consider the argument without saying its ridiculous from the outset.
> 
> Did I really say paedophiles would definitely not go to heaven? If I did then I shouldn't of. Tbh in the last 6 months my views about faith, religion and God have been really shaken up and I'm still finding my way on a very new path of understanding with it all.
> 
> Stop worrying about offending me btw. We know each other better than that.



No I was the one who said I didn't think they would, if we assume that heaven exists, which I'm not really sure about! And apparently that's judgmental even though its part of what Judaism says, that heaven is for the good (although interpretations vary about what good is) and that non Jews can also end up there assuming they are good. And that most people will probably get there, is in other words 'salvation' is based on how you behave


----------



## Edie (Jan 3, 2014)

xslavearcx said:


> Sorry to take this off topic, but how are you finding the whole looking into things, discussing it with religious peeps, and them trying to get you into their denomination? I found that part hellish, felt like i was pissing people off right left and centre when it turned out that this particular branch wasnt for me....


I've not had a problem as my understanding of God is still at such a basic level that I'm a million miles away from being concerned with the details of what different denominations happen to believe iyswim. Currently ignoring that part. Flitting between an evangelical Anglican (I think) church and a baptist church (which a mates family happens to go to). Neither seems to make a point of highlighting differences (and I've no idea what they are, I'm concentrating on finding out about who Jesus was and what he said and did atm).

What did you do?


----------



## TruXta (Jan 3, 2014)

Edie said:


> I've not had a problem as my understanding of God is still at such a basic level that I'm a million miles away from being concerned with the details of what different denominations happen to believe iyswim. Currently ignoring that part. Flitting between an evangelical Anglican (I think) church and a baptist church (which a mates family happens to go to). Neither seems to make a point of highlighting differences (and I've no idea what they are, I'm concentrating on finding out about who Jesus was and what he said and did atm).
> 
> What did you do?


He listened to a lot of very bad music despite full well knowing there was much better stuff out there.


----------



## Edie (Jan 3, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> No I was the one who said I didn't think they would, if we assume that heaven exists, which I'm not really sure about! And apparently that's judgmental even though its part of what Judaism says, that heaven is for the good (although interpretations vary about what good is) and that non Jews can also end up there assuming they are good.


Well it would seem to me that it's for God to judge.


----------



## Edie (Jan 3, 2014)

TruXta said:


> He listened to a lot of very bad music despite full well knowing there was much better stuff out there.


What?!  Is that on the wrong thread?


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 3, 2014)

Edie said:


> Well it would seem to me that it's for God to judge.


right,
But what I'm saying is that you can't say that I'm attacking Christians etc when you've criticized other religions' beliefs fairly harshly in the past, saying that the way they view the afterlife is wrong (not that I care, I'm not sure how I view it myself tbh)


----------



## TruXta (Jan 3, 2014)

Edie said:


> What?!  Is that on the wrong thread?


Sorry, just an in-joke. Fess up xslavearcx!


----------



## Edie (Jan 3, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> right,
> But what I'm saying is that you can't say that I'm attacking Christians etc when you've criticized other religions' beliefs fairly harshly in the past, saying that the way they view the afterlife is wrong (not that I care, I'm not sure how I view it myself tbh)


Can you quote the post? Was I being a dick?


----------



## xslavearcx (Jan 3, 2014)

Edie said:


> I've not had a problem as my understanding of God is still at such a basic level that I'm a million miles away from being concerned with the details of what different denominations happen to believe iyswim. Currently ignoring that part. Flitting between an evangelical Anglican (I think) church and a baptist church (which a mates family happens to go to). Neither seems to make a point of highlighting differences (and I've no idea what they are, I'm concentrating on finding out about who Jesus was and what he said and did atm).
> 
> What did you do?



I was a bloody nightmare, although i suspect it was more down to me being shit at that kinda stuff, and shit in particular at managing expectations. The big issue i had with islam when i first started getting into it was the notion of muhammad being the "seal of prophets". So i bumped into some converts once in the trainstation and confessed that this was my one issue with converting and it just so happened that they belonged to a sect (ahmadis/qadianis) that believed in a different interpretation that allowed for some other dude to be a kinda prophetic/messianic figure. so i went along to their mosque and hung out, got on really with the imam, but then i watched a video of their contemporary leader and it was cringeworthy, something there was no way id assent to. so now i needed an exit stategy, except that this imam had invited my mum and dad up for dinner, which i guess was preparing the ground for my conversion - so i had to bring my mum and dad into the fold of "not answering the telephone for a few weeks strategy" that i had employed lol.

Then there was the flirting between sunni and shia which i had decided on becomming shia after saying shahadah (the saying that initiates one into the muslim community) in a muslim bookshop which stoked many classics along the lines of the "the kaffir-ness of the mushrikun of the rafidi shia" (one doesnt even need to know arabic to know that its not a good judgement lol). so then there was the almost sneaking to the shia mosque faze... lol...

now i just have to avoid all muslims i knew from back in the day lol

all of my own making, but i suspect if you hang with anglicans you shouldnt have that problem tooo much (watch out for the baptists though!!))


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 3, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> I agree with you there. And I meant that in Saudi Arabia it is mandatory to respect the religious views of one religion and never do anything to challenge it.



One interpretation of one religion.


----------



## xslavearcx (Jan 3, 2014)

TruXta said:


> Sorry, just an in-joke. Fess up xslavearcx!



actually the ahmadi dude in my last post was a hip hop advocate for islam at the time, so there is a bit of truth in that. plus my journey into islam began from vegan straightedge, into hardline (very politically dodge!), and then loads of them started converting to islam, so its not far from the truth ahha


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 3, 2014)

xslavearcx said:


> The big issue i had with islam when i first started getting into it was the notion of muhammad being the "seal of prophets".



That's my problem with it too.

I don't see how prophecy could ever be "sealed."


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 3, 2014)

xslavearcx said:


> all of my own making, but i suspect if you hang with anglicans you shouldnt have that problem tooo much (watch out for the baptists though!!))



and the Alpha Course. The free pint an lasagne is a massive softening up game


----------



## Buckaroo (Jan 3, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> and the Alpha Course. The free pint an lasagne is a massive softening up game



free pints and lasagne. there is a god!


----------



## xslavearcx (Jan 3, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> That's my problem with it too.
> 
> I don't see how prophecy could ever be "sealed."



to be fair, it does get interpreted in a lot of ways that can allow for guru nanak, the bahai dude etc..


----------



## xslavearcx (Jan 3, 2014)

Buckaroo said:


> free pints and lasagne. there is a god!



free pint of kaliber actually


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 3, 2014)

xslavearcx said:


> to be fair, it does get interpreted in a lot of ways that can allow for guru nanak, the bahai dude etc..



Yes, but they posit an alternative "seal," right?

But I don't think there can ever be a seal.

It's awkward, as my wife and son are Muslim, but it seems like an insuperable obstacle to me.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 3, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> One interpretation of one religion.





Edie said:


> Can you quote the post? Was I being a dick?



Yeah sure,http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/god.314880/page-46#post-12549373 and on that page 

I don't think you were really being a dick but you can't then turn round and then say that I'm being scathing about Christianity, I have the right to point out what I don't like in the religion and I've actually gone out my way to say not everyone is like that.


----------



## Edie (Jan 3, 2014)

Why Islam not Christianity xslavearcx ? Do you come from a Muslim family? (just out of interest).

Im fascinated by Jesus myself.


----------



## Edie (Jan 3, 2014)

Never thought I'd type that sentence


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 3, 2014)

And you have the right to point out what don't you like in Judaism etc, chances are I might agree with you.


----------



## TruXta (Jan 3, 2014)

Edie said:


> Never thought I'd type that sentence


There's an edit button there, Edith. BTW - have you disallowed all PMs or just me?


----------



## Buckaroo (Jan 3, 2014)

xslavearcx said:


> free pint of kaliber actually



There is no god


----------



## xslavearcx (Jan 3, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Yes, but they posit an alternative "seal," right?
> 
> But I don't think there can ever be a seal.
> 
> It's awkward, as my wife and son are Muslim, but it seems like an insuperable obstacle to me.



i guess the way round it is, that muhammad was the last "law bringing prophet" in the guise of Moses, although muhammad was a universal prophet sent to all people rather than to a particular tribe. If you go by that logic, then it is perfectly possible for people to be inspired by God, but that it is interpreted within the overarching islamic framework. Obviously, if said prophet decides to say, muhammads shariah period is been and gone, and heres a new law, then thats  difficult to reconcile with the seal of prophets thang of islam.

Did your wife and son convert then?

eta - maybe some sufi variety is the way forward for ya?


----------



## xslavearcx (Jan 3, 2014)

Edie said:


> Why Islam not Christianity xslavearcx ? Do you come from a Muslim family? (just out of interest).
> 
> Im fascinated by Jesus myself.



came from a catholic background and the rather firey tone of the Qur'an suited 18/19 year old me


----------



## Buckaroo (Jan 3, 2014)

It's not all nonsense and belief is more than just stuff people say!


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 3, 2014)

xslavearcx said:


> i guess the way round it is, that muhammad was the last "law bringing prophet" in the guise of Moses, although muhammad was a universal prophet sent to all people rather than to a particular tribe. If you go by that logic, then it is perfectly possible for people to be inspired by God, but that it is interpreted within the overarching islamic framework. Obviously, if said prophet decides to say, muhammads shariah period is been and gone, and heres a new law, then thats  difficult to reconcile with the seal of prophets thang of islam.



It's just that I think all truth is historical, so that to announce one message as true for all time is contradictory.



xslavearcx said:


> Did your wife and son convert then?



No, they're secular Turks.



xslavearcx said:


> eta - maybe some sufi variety is the way forward for ya?



Maybe so.  I must say I fancy a bit of this:


----------



## Edie (Jan 3, 2014)

TruXta said:


> There's an edit button there, Edith. BTW - have you disallowed all PMs or just me?


Oh I've turned them off cos I kept getting PMs from pests, sorry.

frogwoman I can't see how those posts on that other thread are being scathing towards Judaism at all  As far as I can see all I was saying is that only God can ultimately judge. Only God knows our hearts, our motivations, sees all of us, and can forgive. I'll be honest and say I've little idea what Jewish people believe on the matter on the matter of sin, forgiveness and redemption. But that issue is probably THE biggest draw of Christianity for me. The idea that we all fuck things up, we all sin, it's the human fucking condition. And the possibility of forgiveness that Jesus brought, the IDEA of new starts, new chances... that's got to be the most relieving idea of all eh? 

Jesus death, his love then his death, is our freedom from our past, our struggles, our wrongs.


----------



## TruXta (Jan 3, 2014)

Edie said:


> Oh I've turned them off cos I kept getting PMs from pests, sorry.
> 
> frogwoman I can't see how those posts on that other thread are being scathing towards Judaism at all  As far as I can see all I was saying is that only God can ultimately judge. Only God knows our hearts, our motivations, sees all of us, and can forgive. I'll be honest and say I've little idea what Jewish people believe on the matter on the matter of sin, forgiveness and redemption. But that issue is probably THE biggest draw of Christianity for me. The idea that we all fuck things up, we all sin, it's the human fucking condition. And the possibility of forgiveness that Jesus brought, the IDEA of new starts, new chances... that's got to be the most relieving idea of all eh?
> 
> Jesus death, his love then his death, is our freedom from our past, our struggles, our wrongs.



Thought as much (re your PM settings), no worries.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 3, 2014)

Edie said:


> Oh I've turned them off cos I kept getting PMs from pests, sorry.
> 
> frogwoman I can't see how those posts on that other thread are being scathing towards Judaism at all  As far as I can see all I was saying is that only God can ultimately judge. Only God knows our hearts, our motivations, sees all of us, and can forgive. I'll be honest and say I've little idea what Jewish people believe on the matter on the matter of sin, forgiveness and redemption. But that issue is probably THE biggest draw of Christianity for me. The idea that we all fuck things up, we all sin, it's the human fucking condition. And the possibility of forgiveness that Jesus brought, the IDEA of new starts, new chances... that's got to be the most relieving idea of all eh?
> 
> Jesus death, his love then his death, is our freedom from our past, our struggles, our wrongs.




I know you weren't trying to be. I wasn't trying to be scathing about Christianity, I was just saying what I found wrong with it. And you're right, we all fuck up etc. When I was saying that stuff, I wasn't having a go at you but I also don't think that we should hold off from having a go at certain ideas on the basis that they are part of someone's religion when believing those ideas literally and acting on what it says has justified so much hate and violence, like you might think its nobody's business whether someone believes all non Christians are going to hell or not but it could affect how they treat others and if they start getting some sort of power then they have the potential to seriously cause some real damage, whether that's by disowning people that are gay or that fall in love with someone from another religion, or by getting political power and using that to seriously hurt people.

I don't think you were being scathing in fact I don't think there's that much wrong with what you said although I disagree with it obviously, but it seems to me you were tryingto say your religion shouldn't be criticized because someone's beliefs are their business despite having attacked other religious views about stuff in the past.

And I do find the idea that forgiveness etc wasn't possible before Jesus a bit problematic tbh, it kind of ends up implying certain things about other religions today.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Jan 3, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Look at it this way.
> 
> When you see, as one often does, the fans of Cardiff City brawling with the fans of Swansea City, do you conclude that these groups of young men must have completely divergent interests and utterly irreconcilable differences?
> 
> ...



That would be because you're an idiot.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 3, 2014)

SpineyNorman said:


> That would be because you're an idiot.



What you don't understand is that you lose the argument like that.

In front of everyone, and for all to see, you declare ideological bankruptcy.


----------



## xslavearcx (Jan 3, 2014)

so can we rename this thread the religious conversion/confession thread


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 3, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> And I do find the idea that forgiveness etc wasn't possible before Jesus a bit problematic tbh, it kind of ends up implying certain things about other religions today.




if you extend it logically all the OT prophets and heroes would be stuck in hell untill jesus came along anyway  odd.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 3, 2014)

But yeah don't worry, I don't think you were trying to attack me I was just saying that you pointed out what you don't like and I have the right to do the same


----------



## Edie (Jan 3, 2014)

xslavearcx said:


> so can we rename this thread the religious conversion/confession thread


The God-botherers have taken over


----------



## xslavearcx (Jan 3, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> It's just that I think all truth is historical, so that to announce one message as true for all time is contradictory.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




ahh that sounds an ok scenario you got there. for a minute i was thinking you were married to a religious zealot there, but that is probably just me projecting my marraige scenario when i was a convert  conversations like "eastenders or corination street" me " have a read of this verse of the Qur'an then you'll see what its all about" etc...


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 3, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> if you extend it logically all the OT prophets and heroes would be stuck in hell untill jesus came along anyway  odd.



That's pretty much what catholics used to believe about limbo isn't it?


----------



## xslavearcx (Jan 3, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> That's pretty much what catholics used to believe about limbo isn't it?


everything is shit about catholicism these days. check this out..


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 3, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> That's pretty much what catholics used to believe about limbo isn't it?



The Harrowing of Hell.

Also explains what He was up to during the three days of apparent death.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Jan 3, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> What you don't understand is that you lose the argument like that.
> 
> In front of everyone, and for all to see, you declare ideological bankruptcy.



By calling you an idiot all that he declared was the bleeding obvious.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 3, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> That's pretty much what catholics used to believe about limbo isn't it?




I think so yes- not in hell but not in heaven. ?chilling with the unshriven and babies who died before baptism


----------



## killer b (Jan 3, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Also explains what He was up to during the three days of apparent death.


nah, he was having a mini-break in the cotswalds.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 3, 2014)

Jeff Robinson said:


> By calling you an idiot all that he declared was the bleeding obvious.



And another one bites the dust.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 3, 2014)




----------



## frogwoman (Jan 3, 2014)

xslavearcx said:


> everything is shit about catholicism these days. check this out..





xslavearcx said:


> everything is shit about catholicism these days. check this out..




Fantastic


----------



## 8ball (Jan 3, 2014)

Edie said:


> Why Islam not Christianity xslavearcx ? Do you come from a Muslim family? (just out of interest).
> 
> Im fascinated by Jesus myself.


 
Jesus never had a flying horse-donkey-mule-thing.


----------



## xslavearcx (Jan 3, 2014)

For my funeral, i want a latin mass, and i want it to have the longest most dreary homily ever, with themes of suffering and death. some fire and brimstone would be lovely too - what there needs to be constructed is a fire and brimstone religion that is not politically dodge. id be signing up for some of that...


----------



## TruXta (Jan 3, 2014)

8ball said:


> Jesus never had a flying horse-donkey-mule-thing.


Well, Muhammad never had a merkabah, so neerrrr.


----------



## xslavearcx (Jan 3, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Fantastic



the bit when you hear the priest having a munch of The Host is sooo impious! 

It all went downhill when they started bringing people with accoustic guitars into relgious cerimonies


----------



## 8ball (Jan 3, 2014)

TruXta said:


> Well, Muhammad never had a merkabah, so neerrrr.


 
Anyone can have one of those if they have too much sun and wine.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 3, 2014)

8ball said:


> Jesus never had a flying horse-donkey-mule-thing.




buraq.


we have Pegasii as well tho.


----------



## FNG (Jan 3, 2014)

Jeff Robinson said:


> By calling you an idiot all that he declared was the bleeding obvious.



  To be honest its kind of dull to argue with someone who constantly  shift the goal posts in order to "win" an arguement on the internet,though this is a corker



> I agree. Neither racists nor anti-semites can be allies. But nonracist anticapitalists who are stupidly labelled "right-wing" by those whose interest is to divide the opposition can be.


phil in the face of overwhelming evidence conceedes that Dieduenne is an apologist for holocaust denying nazi shitcunts shifts the goal post to some existential arse navel gazing about the nature of labelling things "right wing". And having already conceeded Dieduenne less than half a day prior to be an anti semite posts the first sentence in support of the second


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 3, 2014)

Edie said:


> The God-botherers have taken over



 just as long as you get that I wasn't having a go at you m8. There's reasons I dislike this stuff, but anyway  for my funeral I want a long grim and emotional affair with lots of themes about death as well, but then I want everyone to sing 'Ghosts of Cable street' before leaving, to lighten the mood a bit.


----------



## Buckaroo (Jan 3, 2014)

xslavearcx said:


> everything is shit about catholicism these days. check this out..




What? the catholic mass isn't what makes catholicism shit these days its noncery and covering up noncery and institutional corruption and the rest.


----------



## 8ball (Jan 3, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> buraq.


 
Yeah, but if I said that a lot of people would prob think I was talking about one of these:


----------



## Frances Lengel (Jan 3, 2014)

Buckaroo said:


> What? the catholic mass isn't what makes catholicism shit these days its noncery and covering up noncery and institutional corruption and the rest.



I'm not _really_ trying to defend catholocism but noncery's by no means unique to the catholic church. Nor is covering it up. 

All this catholicism=noncery mildly irritates me. It's just lazy stereotyping AFAIC.


----------



## 8ball (Jan 3, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> we have Pegasii as well tho.


 


You and frogwoman?

Can I have a go sometime?


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 3, 2014)

No seriously I want someone who knew me and can talk about my life, not just someone who's been hired for the purposes of conducting the funeral. I also want people to tell funny stories about stuff I did as well.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 3, 2014)

Frances Lengel said:


> I'm not _really_ trying to defend catholocism but noncery's by no means unique to the catholic church. Nor is covering it up.
> 
> All this catholicism=noncery mildly irritates me. It's just lazy stereotyping AFAIC.



its quite literally a broad church with many currents. Aiding ratlines for nazis is some evil shit but its not fair to lay that on your everyday catholic is it.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Jan 3, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> No seriously I want someone who knew me and can talk about my life, not just someone who's been hired for the purposes of conducting the funeral. I also want people to tell funny stories about stuff I did as well.



I want some pissed-up dickhead who gets my name wrong to do my funeral. And I want Laurel and Hardy as pallbearers as well.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 3, 2014)

Frances Lengel said:


> I want some pissed-up dickhead who gets my name wrong to do my funeral. And I want Laurel and Hardy as pallbearers as well.



and the Chuckle Brothers. To me, to you, to the worms


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Jan 3, 2014)

FNG said:


> To be honest its kind of dull to argue with someone who constantly  shift the goal posts in order to "win" an arguement on the internet,though this is a corker
> 
> 
> phil in the face of overwhelming evidence conceedes that Dieduenne is an apologist for holocaust denying nazi shitcunts shifts the goal post to some existential arse navel gazing about the nature of labelling things "right wing". And having already conceeded Dieduenne less than half a day prior to be an anti semite posts the first sentence in support of the second



It's because he's an idiot.


----------



## xslavearcx (Jan 3, 2014)

Buckaroo said:


> What? the catholic mass isn't what makes catholicism shit these days its noncery and covering up noncery and institutional corruption and the rest.



uch the social and institutional aspects of the church have always been shit. but the aesthetics used to be spot on - now they are shit too.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 3, 2014)

Frances Lengel said:


> I'm not _really_ trying to defend catholocism but noncery's by no means unique to the catholic church. Nor is covering it up.
> 
> All this catholicism=noncery mildly irritates me. It's just lazy stereotyping AFAIC.



Agreed, loads of other religions like the church of england and dodgy sects of orthodox Jews in London and NYC have become involved in nonce scandals of their own. It is by no means unique to Catholicism.


----------



## xslavearcx (Jan 3, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Agreed, loads of other religions like the church of england and dodgy sects of orthodox Jews in London and NYC have become involved in nonce scandals of their own. It is by no means unique to Catholicism.



not to mention the swp now with the covering up and abuses of power thing.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Jan 3, 2014)

And the BBC. Bottom line is any institution is corruptible.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 3, 2014)

xslavearcx said:


> not to mention the swp now with the covering up and abuses of power thing.



I think the more secretive and hostile to the outside world it is the bigger chance there is of that happening. Believing you're the vanguard or the religious equivalent of it doesn't help this shit get exposed either.


----------



## xslavearcx (Jan 3, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> I think the more secretive and hostile to the outside world it is the bigger chance there is of that happening. Believing you're the vanguard or the religious equivalent of it doesn't help this shit get exposed either.



absolutly.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 3, 2014)

I also think Trotskyism is a lot like a religion, got no problem admitting I joined the SP partly because of the need to believe in stuff.


----------



## TruXta (Jan 3, 2014)

Are the next 20 pages gonna be about nonces?


----------



## Buckaroo (Jan 3, 2014)

Frances Lengel said:


> I'm not _really_ trying to defend catholocism but noncery's by no means unique to the catholic church. Nor is covering it up.
> 
> All this catholicism=noncery mildly irritates me. It's just lazy stereotyping AFAIC.



Oh yeah I get that, went to a catholic school run by priests and you know what, they were all decent blokes, no noncery at all, maybe I wasn't good looking enough! Good people and smart, good politics, liberation theology and stuff and taught us not to give a fuck about the superficial bullshit. I was just making a point about the mass. The catholic mass is theatre and while there are many problems with Catholicism, the mass isn't really one of them...unless you bring in God etc and the fact that it's a bit scary, snuff style, crucifixion, death and hell obsessed.


----------



## xslavearcx (Jan 3, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> I also think Trotskyism is a lot like a religion, got no problem admitting I joined the SP partly because of the need to believe in stuff.



I find it hard to distinguish between political idealism (meaning in the colloquial sense of the word - not the philosophical) and religious idealism. A future ordering of society and heaven dont sound that much different from me.

Also within religious studies definitions of religions (such as Ninian Smart's 7 dimensional definition), its very hard to differentiate between political idealisim and religiousity. Usually when presented with that kinda thing, people think it reduces political ideologies to religious ones, but i think it generates the opposite implications. Like for instance, does it matter that liberation theology peeps have the same idea of communism in practice but have a different philosophical framework underpinning it? To me the answer would be no, and i think it opens up space for people to not quibble about theologies, philosophies and just focus on the universalism (that is the general material things we all need) underpinning progressive strands within all these frameworks...


----------



## manny-p (Jan 3, 2014)

FNG said:


> Support for what though? has Dieudonne had a particularly tough year?
> 
> fuck this post is a facking mess



He was recently in court.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 3, 2014)

I also really agree with what elbows was saying earlier about beliefs like antisemitism providing simplistic and comforting explanations for things, even when they are bollocks and end up seriously hurting someone, like to have that faith that you're right can be good because it can give you comfort and a reason to get out of bed etc but it can also end up seriously hurting people.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Jan 3, 2014)

Buckaroo said:


> Oh yeah I get that, went to a catholic school run by priests and you know what, they were all decent blokes, no noncery at all, maybe I wasn't good looking enough! Good people and smart, good politics, liberation theology and stuff and taught us not to give a fuck about the superficial bullshit. I was just making a point about the mass. The catholic mass is theatre and while there are many problems with Catholicism, the mass isn't really one of them...*unless you bring in God etc and the fact that it's a bit scary, snuff style, crucifixion, death and hell obsessed*.



No worries mate  But I actually like that bit I've highlighted. I like the scariness of it. Even though I never believed a word of it. Purgatory? Yeah,is that right George. Stations of the cross to get time off purgatory? _Come on._ Limbo for the unbaptised? You've _got_ to be messin. AFAIC a catholic education teaches you at a very early age that a lot of what you get told is bullshit. Which isn't a bad thing.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 3, 2014)

> The catholic mass is theatre



and it works. Imagery, smells the buildings themselves. All to instill awe.


----------



## xslavearcx (Jan 3, 2014)

Buckaroo said:


> Oh yeah I get that, went to a catholic school run by priests and you know what, they were all decent blokes, no noncery at all, maybe I wasn't good looking enough! Good people and smart, good politics, liberation theology and stuff and taught us not to give a fuck about the superficial bullshit. I was just making a point about the mass. The catholic mass is theatre and while there are many problems with Catholicism, the mass isn't really one of them...unless you bring in God etc and the fact that it's a bit scary, snuff style, crucifixion, death and hell obsessed.



i wasn't really making a serious point. but i mean, accoustic guitars - usually badly tuned, playing 3 chord tricks in praise of jesus, isnt really that far away from hell is it??


----------



## cesare (Jan 3, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> and it works. Imagery, smells the buildings themselves. All to instill awe.


That's not just catholicism though


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 3, 2014)

xslavearcx said:


> i wasn't really making a serious point. but i mean, accoustic guitars - usually badly tuned,* playing 3 chord tricks* in praise of jesus, isnt really that far away from hell is it??



so basically punk


----------



## xslavearcx (Jan 3, 2014)

cesare said:


> That's not just catholicism though



think anglicanism has at least done a bit to preserve the kinda aesthetics that used to be associated with the catholic church. Greek Orthodox keeps it real as well...


----------



## xslavearcx (Jan 3, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> so basically punk



If only... more trying to sounds like donovan and pulling it off terribly 

_Jazz for Jesus, _is a musical movement that i could get into on the other hand.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 3, 2014)

cesare said:


> That's not just catholicism though




of course not- its simply what I noticed most when attending catholic services after an austere ish baptist upbringing. The other one that got me was the question-response from priest to audience. And also with you etc.

closest to that level of ritualism in baptist I ever saw was recitation of the serenity prayer. You know 'god grant me' etc.


----------



## cesare (Jan 3, 2014)

xslavearcx said:


> think anglicanism has at least done a bit to preserve the kinda aesthetics that used to be associated with the catholic church. Greek Orthodox keeps it real as well...


Some amazing Islamic religious architecture etc too. And other religions.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 3, 2014)

xslavearcx said:


> think anglicanism has at least done a bit to preserve the kinda aesthetics that used to be associated with the catholic church. Greek Orthodox keeps it real as well...




that would depend on what sort of CofE church you are going to. Another broad church lol- anglo catholic wing, proddy/lutheran/reformationistic wing, and inbetweeners


----------



## xslavearcx (Jan 3, 2014)

cesare said:


> Some amazing Islamic religious architecture etc too. And other religions.



aye definately. ive just zoned into post-vatican2-catholic-moanings zone. 

Islam is the best at everything


----------



## cesare (Jan 3, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> of course not- its simply what I noticed most when attending catholic services after an austere ish baptist upbringing. The other one that got me was the question-response from priest to audience. And also with you etc.
> 
> closest to that level of ritualism in baptist I ever saw was recitation of the serenity prayer. You know 'god grant me' etc.


Full immersion's something you tend to notice more than incense


----------



## xslavearcx (Jan 3, 2014)

Frances Lengel said:


> No worries mate  But I actually like that bit I've highlighted. I like the scariness of it. Even though I never believed a word of it. Purgatory? Yeah,is that right George. Stations of the cross to get time off purgatory? _Come on._ Limbo for the unbaptised? You've _got_ to be messin. AFAIC a catholic education teaches you at a very early age that a lot of what you get told is bullshit. Which isn't a bad thing.



Na that stuff is the best parts of catholicism


----------



## Frances Lengel (Jan 3, 2014)

xslavearcx said:


> think anglicanism has at least done a bit to preserve the kinda aesthetics that used to be associated with the catholic church. Greek Orthodox keeps it real as well...



I've been to an anglican mass (or service or whatever, is it only catholics who call it mass?) and I'll tell you what, they've mangled the lords prayer - "Your will be done" instead of "Thy will be done" And "Forgive us our sins " instead of "Forgive us our trespasses". Mind you, by rights it should be in latin anyway.


----------



## xslavearcx (Jan 3, 2014)

i love the "forgive us our debts" thats when you know that you are into full protestant-capitalism mode of thought!


----------



## Edie (Jan 3, 2014)

xslavearcx said:


> i love the "forgive us our debts" thats when you know that you are into full protestant-capitalism mode of thought!


It doesn't say forgive us our debts 

(As we forgive those who trespass against us)


----------



## Frances Lengel (Jan 3, 2014)

cesare said:


> Some amazing Islamic religious architecture etc too. And other religions.



There's supposed to be, well there is, a church type effort somewhere in Spain, that was originally built by the Moors as an Islamic effort but was later taken over by the catholics anyway, my mam's seeen it when she was in Spain and she said it looks mental with all this catholic imagery kind of superimposed over the original moorish mosiacy type stuff.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 3, 2014)

Frances Lengel said:


> I've been to an anglican mass (or service or whatever, is it only catholics who call it mass?) and I'll tell you what, they've mangled the lords prayer - "Your will be done" instead of "Thy will be done" And "Forgive us our sins " instead of "Forgive us our trespasses". Mind you, by rights it should be in latin anyway.




our version is tighter and has the greater poetical validity.

Possibly


----------



## killer b (Jan 3, 2014)

loads of spanish religious architecture has a moorish cast to it. makes a nice change.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 3, 2014)

Frances Lengel said:


> There's supposed to be, well there is, a church type effort somewhere in Spain, that was originally built by the Moors as an Islamic effort but was later taken over by the catholics anyway, my mam's seeen it when she was in Spain and she said it looks mental with all this catholic imagery kind of superimposed over the original moorish mosiacy type stuff.




see also the Hagia Sophia of Istanbul.


----------



## cesare (Jan 3, 2014)

Frances Lengel said:


> There's supposed to be, well there is, a church type effort somewhere in Spain, that was originally built by the Moors as an Islamic effort but was later taken over by the catholics anyway, my mam's seeen it when she was in Spain and she said it looks mental with all this catholic imagery kind of superimposed over the original moorish mosiacy type stuff.


Aye, I think I remember seeing that on the Islamic architecture documentary on BBC3 not so long back


----------



## xslavearcx (Jan 3, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> our version is tighter and has the greater poetical validity.
> 
> Possibly



nothing beats king james bible for that kinda thing, and the old-school common prayer book. but thats in english. latin beats english anytime.


----------



## xslavearcx (Jan 3, 2014)

Edie said:


> It doesn't say forgive us our debts
> 
> (As we forgive those who trespass against us)



gonna be pretty scunnered if i die and god presents me with all those unopened letters from debt collecters associated with wonga...


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 3, 2014)

cesare said:


> Aye, I think I remember seeing that on the Islamic architecture documentary on BBC3 not so long back



was it Sebag Montefiores 'A Tale of Three Cities?'


----------



## SpineyNorman (Jan 3, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> What you don't understand is that you lose the argument like that.
> 
> In front of everyone, and for all to see, you declare ideological bankruptcy.



No, I just think you're an idiot. In front of everyone, and for all to see, I called you an idiot. Nothing more, nothing less.

You don't need a blue print for a new society to think that people who oppose capitalism because it's helping dilute the purity of the race/nation/culture, because it challenges traditional authority, because it offers (extremely limited) opportunities for the untermensch to overtake the ubermensch, because it allows decadent infidels to poison the ummah or because it's a Jewish plot aimed at world domination and want to replace it with a 'traditional' system in which the political and economic hierarchies are even more rigid and social attitudes even more backward are not on the same side as those who oppose it because it restricts the autonomy of individuals and social groups, causes increasing amounts of inequality of all kinds, leads to the destruction of the environment, helps perpetuate the kinds of prejudices that the 'other anticapitalists' want to reinforce and causes wars over resources and want to replace it with a system in which the decisions that are now made by elites are made collectively be everyone affected. And I don't need a blue print of a new society to know that I'd take capitalism over what those reactionary cunts want any day of the week.

Other than possibly calling you an idiot and a cunt a few more times I doubt you'll hear much more from me in this thread because I can't be arsed to play your stupid games and I definitely don't want to play any part in helping you test the ideas you're gonna Hawk in your next shit writings. You used to be quite an entertaining troll but you've just become dull now, repeating the same contrarian crap over and over again and taking perverse pleasure out of deliberately upsetting decent people.


----------



## Buckaroo (Jan 3, 2014)

Frances Lengel said:


> No worries mate  But I actually like that bit I've highlighted. I like the scariness of it. Even though I never believed a word of it. Purgatory? Yeah,is that right George. Stations of the cross to get time off purgatory? _Come on._ Limbo for the unbaptised? You've _got_ to be messin. AFAIC a catholic education teaches you at a very early age that a lot of what you get told is bullshit. Which isn't a bad thing.



I know. It's insane, purgatory ffs! how the fuck do you comprehend that as a child, as an adult? I think there's a time in every Catholic's life when you just say 'that's bollocks' but it continues as a secular, cultural thing in your head. And then when you doubt any of it, the whole thing comes down and you deal with some kind of grief. Like all religion, it only works if you go all in.


----------



## Edie (Jan 3, 2014)

Ironically (given the thread) I noticed at church this Sunday that during the 'For thine is the kingdom, the power, and the glory' part when everyone raises their hand towards the cross at about the same time that it did bear (slight) similarity to the Nazi salute. 

I'm certain that this would be horrifying if they knew it, but I was on the balcony and all I'm saying is the thought did pop into my mind.


----------



## cesare (Jan 3, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> was it Sebag Montefiores 'A Tale of Three Cities?'


Ah, might have been. In which case BBC4


----------



## manny-p (Jan 3, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Or do you rather conclude that their brawling indicates a shared mentality, similar tastes and virtually indistinguishable interests?
> 
> That's how I see Commies v. Fash.



If you would care to even read about militant antifascism in the UK as an example. Many anti fascists have fought not because of the thrill of the fight (although that is a draw for some) but because the fash want to turn people to soap and that they want to put them into ovens and that fash are anti working class. So I don't think these things are shared with fash.


----------



## xslavearcx (Jan 3, 2014)

Edie said:


> Ironically (given the thread) I noticed at church this Sunday that during the 'For thine is the kingdom, the power, and the glory' part when everyone raises their hand towards the cross at about the same time that it did bear (slight) similarity to the Nazi salute.
> 
> I'm certain that this would be horrifying if they knew it, but I was on the balcony and all I'm saying is the thought did pop into my mind.


----------



## Buckaroo (Jan 3, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> and it works. Imagery, smells the buildings themselves. All to instill awe.



and incense and the figurines


----------



## SpineyNorman (Jan 3, 2014)

xslavearcx said:


> For my funeral, i want a latin mass, and i want it to have the longest most dreary homily ever, with themes of suffering and death. some fire and brimstone would be lovely too - what there needs to be constructed is a fire and brimstone religion that is not politically dodge. id be signing up for some of that...



If I know I'm on my way out I'm gonna arrange my own funeral and I'll have a video of myself played there where I pretend to be a ghost and stuff. I'm also gonna cosy up to the vicar and tell him loads of lies about my achievements so he relays them to the congregation as I'm being sent to my final resting place


----------



## Frances Lengel (Jan 3, 2014)

killer b said:


> loads of spanish religious architecture has a moorish cast to it. makes a nice change.



I remember going to Bradford in the van with this dodgy as fuck guy I used to work for called Aub. Anyway, we went past the Alhambra and he went "Is that a theatre? It sounds like some sort of paki place". Anyway, I was able to tell him he was sort of right, being as the Bradford Alhambra was named after the Spanish Alhambra which was some sort of palace or something for the Moors. Who, though hailing from North Africa rather than Pakistan were, nonetheless, Muslims. He was quite impressed. Didn't give me a payrise though. But he did say "How the fuck do you know about things like that, Benny?" And just hearing this little fat motormouth, curly top  cheetham hill jewish  guy call me Benny was better than any pay rise. Coz (and I've said this before, every time he called me Benny, I imagined myself to be in Top Cat's gang).


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 3, 2014)

xslavearcx Our version of purgatory is a place everyone (apart from people who died for the faith who get sent straight to heaven, and the Hitlers and Ian Watkins's of this world who just die, sometimes after purgatory sometimes not) goes to for a fixed period, supposedly a year for all their sins to be cleansed, after that they are admitted to heaven. Not everyone believes this though, some people believe in reincarnation and other stuff, there's no hell though.

I'm not sure I believe it tho and why should people who died for the faith get to jump the purgatory queue


----------



## TruXta (Jan 3, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> there's no hell though



Wasn't _sheol_ some kinda hell-like place in some Jewish theologies/stories?


----------



## xslavearcx (Jan 3, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> xslavearcx Our version of purgatory is a place everyone (apart from people who died for the faith who get sent straight to heaven, and the Hitlers and Ian Watkins's of this world who just die, sometimes after purgatory sometimes not) goes to for a fixed period, supposedly a year for all their sins to be cleansed, after that they are admitted to heaven. Not everyone believes this though, some people believe in reincarnation and other stuff, there's no hell though.
> 
> I'm not sure I believe it tho and why should people who died for the faith get to jump the purgatory queue



kinda more down with watkins and hitlers going to the quranic descriptions of hell which are absolutly terrifying. the general consensus in islam, is that hellfire is eternal, but there are more hippy interpretations that ultimately hellfire is finite.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Jan 3, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> xslavearcx Our version of purgatory is a place everyone (apart from people who died for the faith who get sent straight to heaven, and the Hitlers and Ian Watkins's of this world who just die, sometimes after purgatory sometimes not) goes to for a fixed period, supposedly a year for all their sins to be cleansed, after that they are admitted to heaven. Not everyone believes this though, some people believe in reincarnation and other stuff, there's no hell though.
> 
> I'm not sure I believe it tho and why should people who died for the faith get to jump the purgatory queue



But if there's no hell, Mad Meg couldn't have gone there to pillage the place

 

And that bad motherfucker Stagger Lee couldn't have run the devil out of there and took over the joint for himself.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 3, 2014)

xslavearcx said:


> kinda more down with watkins and hitlers going to the quranic descriptions of hell which are absolutly terrifying. the general consensus in islam, is that hellfire is eternal, but there are more hippy interpretations that ultimately hellfire is finite.



Me too, I'd rather they went to hell. According to some views after the year in purgatory their soul is obliterated by God, which is presumably horrible and painful, then they just die. And purgatory isn't meant to be that great either.  I agree though, its slightly annoying that hell doesn't exist sometimes


----------



## Edie (Jan 3, 2014)

They sing along to this at church, it always makes me a little  as the lyrics are 'Our God is greater, Our God is stronger'. I assume they mean than sin and human suffering, but it could sound a little playground if you took it the wrong way.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 3, 2014)

TruXta said:


> Wasn't _sheol_ some kinda hell-like place in some Jewish theologies/stories?



Kind of yeah, it was meant to be where everyone went after they died. There are some descriptions in the Talmud about sinners being boiled in excrement etc, but the idea of eternal torment doesn't really exist (although there is no prescribrd belief about the afterlife so someone out there almostcertainly believes it)


----------



## Frances Lengel (Jan 3, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Me too, I'd rather they went to hell. According to some views after the year in purgatory their soul is obliterated by God, which is presumably horrible and painful, then they just die. And purgatory isn't meant to be that great either.  I agree though, its slightly annoying that hell doesn't exist sometimes



Hell exists on earth though - Watkins waking up in a cell every morning for at least the next thirty years, knowing that's all his life is going to be. For decades. Won't be much fun for him. No more than he deserves though.

And old Adolf, the madman. In the last days of the bunker with the drains all backed up and shit flowing down the corridors, in defeat and disgrace with Berlin all bombed to fuck and the lads practically at the door. Having to take that cyanide pill. He won't have liked that. I wonder if he wished he'd never done it? Still, anyway, again no more than he deserved.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 3, 2014)

Edie said:


> They sing along to this at church, it always makes me a little  as the lyrics are 'Our God is greater, Our God is stronger'. I assume they mean than sin and human suffering, but it could sound a little playground if you took it the wrong way.





LOL i've actually told frogwoman how much I hate that one. Matt Redman does a version.

If your god is so fucking awesome and almighty then maybe you don't need to brag about it being the biggest penis in the theological world. And it encourages ecumenism of the sword.

I proper hate insipid love songs to jesus and I also dislike semi-militarist calls to arms, harking to Jericho (wtf man) and so on.


----------



## Edie (Jan 3, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> LOL i've actually told frogwoman how much I hate that one. Matt Redman does a version.
> 
> If your god is so fucking awesome and almighty then maybe you don't need to brag about it being the biggest penis in the theological world. And it encourages ecumenism of the sword.
> 
> I proper hate insipid love songs to jesus and I also dislike semi-militarist calls to arms, harking to Jericho (wtf man) and so on.


Almost every week man. Along with the kiddies favourite 'Our God is a great big God'. Can you still do the hand movements Commie?


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 3, 2014)

Frances Lengel said:


> Hell exists on earth though - Watkins waking up in a cell every morning for at least the next thirty years, knowing that's all his life is going to be. For decades. Won't be much fun for him. No more than he deserves though.
> 
> And old Adolf, the madman. In the last days of the bunker with the drains all backed up and shit flowing down the corridors, in defeat and disgrace with Berlin all bombed to fuck and the lads practically at the door. Having to take that cyanide pill. He won't have liked that. I wonder if he wished he'd never done it? Still, anyway, again no more than he deserved.



That's more or less the attitude most people take on it, theres another view that you shouldn't speculate on what its gonna be like when you die so you should concentrate on being observant now for its own sake not cos of what happens after death.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 3, 2014)

Edie said:


> Almost every week man. Along with the kiddies favourite 'Our God is a great big God'. Can you still do the hand movements Commie?




can do to 'Shine Jesus Shine' lol


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 3, 2014)

oh and hands to 'Lord we Lift Your Name On High'


bloody child indoctrination.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Jan 3, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> That's more or less the attitude most people take on it, theres another view that you shouldn't speculate on what its gonna be like when you die so you should concentrate on being observant now for its own sake not cos of what happens after death.



Well yeah, the way I see it though is that this life & this world is all there is so it's _our_ responsibility to make each others lives as easy and painless as possible. And AFAIC, god and the afterlife and such get in the way of that. IYSWIM, not sure I explained that very well.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 3, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> can do to 'Shine Jesus Shine' lol



They made me sing that at school


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 3, 2014)

Frances Lengel said:


> Hell exists on earth though - Watkins waking up in a cell every morning for at least the next thirty years, knowing that's all his life is going to be. For decades. Won't be much fun for him. No more than he deserves though.
> 
> And old Adolf, the madman.* In the last days of the bunker with the drains all backed up and shit flowing down the corridors, in defeat and disgrace with Berlin all bombed to fuck and the lads practically at the door. Having to take that cyanide pill. He won't have liked that. *I wonder if he wished he'd never done it? Still, anyway, again no more than he deserved.




afaik he was in latter stage untreated parkisnsons and dosed up on a proper pharmacopeia of drugs. So off the scale. He shot his miss before doing himself. I don't think regrets came much into it by that point.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 3, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> They made me sing that at school



at least with 'All Creatures Great and Small' it could be taken as non partisan but Shine Jesus Shine leaves no room for fraternal praise of a vaguely defined diety. Its just blates a jeebus number.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 3, 2014)

Edie said:


> They sing along to this at church, it always makes me a little  as the lyrics are 'Our God is greater, Our God is stronger'. I assume they mean than sin and human suffering, but it could sound a little playground if you took it the wrong way.




What's wrong with lions? 


DotCommunist said:


> afaik he was in latter stage untreated parkisnsons and dosed up on a proper pharmacopeia of drugs. So off the scale. He shot his miss before doing himself. I don't think regrets came much into it by that point.



Oh well, what a shame.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Jan 3, 2014)

This was always my favourite hymn. Sounds a bit country. And didn't Kristoffeson once say if it sounds country it is country - It's a country song? That'll do for me anyway.


And this one. But when we sang it back in the juniors, we used to give it "walk, wa-ah-ah-ha-ha, walk in the light of the lord". Good times.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 3, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> at least with 'All Creatures Great and Small' it could be taken as non partisan but Shine Jesus Shine leaves no room for fraternal praise of a vaguely defined diety. Its just blates a jeebus number.



Nearly every bloody week ffs


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 3, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> What's wrong with lions?
> 
> 
> Oh well, what a shame.



I know, a single fuck was not given that day etc

apparently the rancid fuckers bones still reside in former kremlin archives but nobody is allowed to look at them and solve the one/two ball conundrum once and for all


----------



## Frances Lengel (Jan 3, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> afaik he was in latter stage untreated parkisnsons and dosed up on a proper pharmacopeia of drugs. So off the scale. He shot his miss before doing himself. I don't think regrets came much into it by that point.



Still though, ending your life by your own hand - It's a big step. Drugged up or not, I like to think he was crying when he did it.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 3, 2014)

Frances Lengel said:


> Still though, ending your life by your own hand - It's a big step. Drugged up or not, I like to think he was crying when he did it.



Because he had lost the war and the thousand year Reich was no more, quite possibly. He never showed any remorse whatsoever though. I find it a bit hard to stomach that he could end up in heaven after doing his year in purgatory, if you take the view everyone goes to heaven which some people do.


----------



## Buckaroo (Jan 3, 2014)

bastards. Sure there used to be a lyric about letting the prisoners free?


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 3, 2014)

Oh God we had to sing colours of day and sing hosanna as well. Plus morning has broken which I quite liked.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 3, 2014)

Frances Lengel said:


> This was always my favourite hymn. Sounds a bit country. And didn't Kristoffeson once say if it sounds country it is country - It's a country song? That'll do for me anyway.
> 
> 
> And this one. But when we sang it back in the juniors, we used to give it "walk, wa-ah-ah-ha-ha, walk in the light of the lord". Good times.





as seen in numerous westerns e.g. the wild bunch


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 3, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> I know, a single fuck was not given that day etc
> 
> apparently the rancid fuckers bones still reside in former kremlin archives but nobody is allowed to look at them and solve the one/two ball conundrum once and for all



Kershaw reckons there was nothing wrong with his balls but that theres evidence he was the product of incest.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Jan 3, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Because he had lost the war and the thousand year Reich was no more, quite possibly. He never showed any remorse whatsoever though. I find it a bit hard to stomach that he could end up in heaven after doing his year in purgatory, if you take the view everyone goes to heaven which some people do.



I reckon though, in the act of killing yourself, there's got to be a moment of clarity. The chickens are home. And they're roosting like good uns. I doubt Hitler ever thought he was wrong or wanted redemption, but I do like to think he cried tears of self pity and felt absolutely wretched (I can't imagine anyone killing themself not feeling wretched TBH, I struggle to think of anything worse) as he did himself in. And I also like to think he wished he'd never bothered doing any of his crap - Again, I'm not daft enough to think he had a damascus moment and realised he was wrong, but I do hope the full horror of the fact that he'd put himself there by his own actions did dawn on him as he writhed in his throes. And, given that he was a speed freak, I think that's entirely possible. Coz a speed comedown does tend to leave you feeling wretched even if you haven't tried to conquer Europe/start a thousand year reich/pointlessly massacre loads of blameless people.

In short, I reckon (and hope) he suffered at the time of his suicide.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 3, 2014)

another song from a western - a fenian one this time, from the 1939 film rio grande



of course, as the lyrics make clear this is somewhat anachronistic: 50 years from the fenian rising would by c.1917.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 3, 2014)

Frances Lengel said:


> I reckon though, in the act of killing yourself, there's got to be a moment of clarity. The chickens are home. And they're roosting like good uns. I doubt Hitler ever thought he was wrong or wanted redemption, but I do like to think he cried tears of self pity and felt absolutely wretched (I can't imagine anyone killing themself not feeling wretched TBH, I struggle to think of anything worse) as he did himself in. And I also like to think he wished he'd never bothered doing any of his crap - Again, I'm not daft enough to think he had a damascus moment and realised he was wrong, but I do hope the full horror of the fact that he'd put himself there by his own actions did dawn on him as he writhed in his throes. And, given that he was a speed freak, I think that's entirely possible. Coz a speed comedown does tend to leave you feeling wretched even if you haven't tried to conquer Europe/start a thousand year reich/pointlessly massacre loads of blameless people.
> 
> In short, I reckon (and hope) he suffered at the time of his suicide.


of course he suffered at the time of his suicide, he wasn't too keen on loud noises since 20/7/1944 and of course there were lots of loud bangs in the berlin of may 1945.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 3, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Oh God we had to sing colours of day and sing hosanna as well. Plus morning has broken which I quite liked.


aint nothing wrong with Morning Has Broken as a tune.

Cat Stevens/Yussef Islam does this minted version:


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 3, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Kershaw reckons there was nothing wrong with his balls but that theres evidence he was the product of incest.


and hitler and his niece...


----------



## TruXta (Jan 3, 2014)

Frances Lengel said:


> I can't imagine anyone killing themself not feeling wretched TBH, I struggle to think of anything worse



Off-topic, but a lot of people who kill themselves do so when they're on the up mood-wise. It's just too hard when you're at your darkest most depressive.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Jan 3, 2014)

True. Apparently.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 3, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> and hitler and his niece...



Its in his intro to the hubris book when he talks about hitlers early life, he discusses various theories about Hitler's origins and the evidence for any genital abnormality.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 3, 2014)

there's a lecture online about the use of hymns in films, here's part one of 'shall we gather at the movies'


----------



## TruXta (Jan 3, 2014)

Frances Lengel said:


> True. Apparently.


OTOH I read somewhere yesterday about people who'd been taken from the brink of suicide (bridges, windows, rooftops etc) - apparently something like 80-90% didn't commit suicide after. I'll try and find where I read it.


----------



## Greebo (Jan 3, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> so basically punk


Basically folk, blues, rock, and skiffle, then punk as a latecomer.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 3, 2014)

Greebo said:


> skiffle


here's a lovely number i saw performed by the ugly brothers iirc at the acton arms in hackney in the 1990s


----------



## FNG (Jan 3, 2014)

manny-p said:


> He was recently in court.


Ah cheers thought he treated that sort of thing as an occupational hazard.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 3, 2014)

He sounds like a scumbag.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 3, 2014)

FNG said:


> Ah cheers thought he treated that sort of thing as an occupational hazard.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 3, 2014)

Jeff Robinson said:


> It's because he's an idiot.



At the risk of seeming immodest, it's pretty stupid of you to respond with such an obviously false piece of bluster.  It makes people assume that everything else you say is equally false.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 3, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> see also the Hagia Sophia of Istanbul.



What are you on about?  It was built as a church.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 3, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> At the risk of seeming immodest, it's pretty stupid of you to respond with such an obviously false piece of bluster.  It makes people assume that everything else you say is equally false.


it's this sort of post that makes people think you have half a brain.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 3, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> What are you on about?  It was built as a church.




he is contrasting it with mosques turned into churches you thick cunt.


----------



## cesare (Jan 3, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> it's this sort of post that makes people think you have half a brain.


It just makes me wonder if he's posting "CLOSED - stupid fucking far right" on Stormfront.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 3, 2014)

cesare said:


> It just makes me wonder if he's posting "CLOSED - stupid fucking far right" on Stormfront.


that would be too clever for him.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 3, 2014)

SpineyNorman said:


> deliberately upsetting decent people.



What is this, a tupperware party?


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 3, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> What are you on about?  It was built as a church.




yeah I know. Then they made it into a mosque. And then other stuff. I watched a docu.

Have you been there? I only saw the docu and that plus the Blue Mosque looked IMMENSE pieces of architecture. You are oft in Turkey right?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 3, 2014)

SpineyNorman said:


> No, I just think you're an idiot. In front of everyone, and for all to see, I called you an idiot. Nothing more, nothing less.
> 
> You don't need a blue print for a new society to think that people who oppose capitalism because it's helping dilute the purity of the race/nation/culture, because it challenges traditional authority, because it offers (extremely limited) opportunities for the untermensch to overtake the ubermensch, because it allows decadent infidels to poison the ummah or because it's a Jewish plot aimed at world domination and want to replace it with a 'traditional' system in which the political and economic hierarchies are even more rigid and social attitudes even more backward are not on the same side as those who oppose it because it restricts the autonomy of individuals and social groups, causes increasing amounts of inequality of all kinds, leads to the destruction of the environment, helps perpetuate the kinds of prejudices that the 'other anticapitalists' want to reinforce and causes wars over resources and want to replace it with a system in which the decisions that are now made by elites are made collectively be everyone affected. And I don't need a blue print of a new society to know that I'd take capitalism over what those reactionary cunts want any day of the week.
> 
> Other than possibly calling you an idiot and a cunt a few more times I doubt you'll hear much more from me in this thread because I can't be arsed to play your stupid games and I definitely don't want to play any part in helping you test the ideas you're gonna Hawk in your next shit writings. You used to be quite an entertaining troll but you've just become dull now, repeating the same contrarian crap over and over again and taking perverse pleasure out of deliberately upsetting decent people.


^^ this is one of those posts which deserves a score of likes


----------



## LiamO (Jan 3, 2014)

elbows said:


> First I got distracted by what 'officially' even means in this context.



Thanks elbows . 

That's the bit that struck me as odd too. Sorry you had to wade through the mire...


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 3, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> yeah I know. Then they made it into a mosque. And then other stuff. I watched a docu.
> 
> Have you been there? I only saw the docu and that plus the Blue Mosque looked IMMENSE pieces of architecture. You are oft in Turkey right?



Yes, and I visit Hagia Sophia often.  It's just over the square from the Blue Mosque, so it makes a nice combination.  They're still uncovering the Byzantine murals, I don't think they even know what might be there under the whitewash.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 3, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Yes, and I visit Hagia Sophia often.  It's just over the square from the Blue Mosque, so it makes a nice combination.  They're still uncovering the Byzantine murals, I don't think they even know what might be there under the whitewash.


then i'll tell them: more murals.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 3, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> then i'll tell them: more murals.



What an unbelievable fool you truly are.

The interesting question, of course, is which murals they will discover--theotokos, pancrator etc?  That will provide us with invaluable evidence on late Byzantine theology, than which there can be few more pressing issues today.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 3, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> ^^ this is one of those posts which deserves a score of likes



I wouldn't say that, but it makes some good points.  You ought to try it sometime.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 3, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> What an unbelievable fool you truly are.
> 
> The interesting question, of course, is which murals they will discover--theotokos, pancrator etc?  That will provide us with invaluable evidence on late Byzantine theology, than which there can be few more pressing issues today.


pancrator? pantocrator! you ignorant cunt.


----------



## Greebo (Jan 3, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> <snip> That will provide us with invaluable evidence on late Byzantine theology, than which there can be few more pressing issues today.


If your tongue goes any further into your cheek, it'll bore a hole.


----------



## cesare (Jan 3, 2014)

Greebo said:


> If your tongue goes any further into your cheek, it'll bore a hole.


"than which" what, though?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 3, 2014)

cesare said:


> "than which" what, though?


tbh now greebo's said that dwyer can bore his own cheeks what hope is there for him to entertain anyone?


----------



## elbows (Jan 3, 2014)

Hope I haven't missed the musical interlude.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 3, 2014)

elbows said:


> Hope I haven't missed the musical interlude.


----------



## Edie (Jan 3, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Because he had lost the war and the thousand year Reich was no more, quite possibly. He never showed any remorse whatsoever though. I find it a bit hard to stomach that he could end up in heaven after doing his year in purgatory, if you take the view everyone goes to heaven which some people do.


Mate I think this might be a misconception? (Altho bare in mind I'm no expert). I think you have to truly repent to be forgiven, and get to heaven.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 3, 2014)

Edie said:


> Mate I think this might be a misconception? (Altho bare in mind I'm no expert). I think you have to truly repent to be forgiven, and get to heaven.


it's ok, he'd be lynched if he ever got to heaven


----------



## LiamO (Jan 3, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Can't be bothered to read but demands others _expand._ Then doesn't bother following the implications when they do.



I have _asked_ (not demanded, asked) posters _twice_ on this thread (and often on others) to expand on what they have posted - because I was not entirely sure of what they meant. 

Asking them to clarify their intent seems to me to be eminently more sensible than following your MO of _declaring_ their intent, cunting them off and then... when they come back to clarify... accusing them of wriggling, back-tracking etc.  

I could furnish you with two decent examples of this from the last few hours alone. 

I would love to be able to see the inside of your head. I'm sure all the right connections are made in there, but reading your posts is often like trying to do a jigsaw with the pieces missing.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 3, 2014)

Edie said:


> Mate I think this might be a misconception? (Altho bare in mind I'm no expert). I think you have to truly repent to be forgiven, and get to heaven.



I was talking about what some of my lot believe! In our version of purgatory you have your sins cleansed for a fixed period and some Jews believe EVERYONE goes to heaven bat the end of their time in purgatory, I find this a bit hard to stomach tbh.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 3, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> I was talking about what some of my lot believe! In our version of purgatory you have your sins cleansed for a fixed period and some Jews believe EVERYONE goes to heaven bat the end of their time in purgatory, I find this a bit hard to stomach tbh.


in that case i'd rather go to hell, there'll be some legroom.


----------



## Edie (Jan 3, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> I was talking about what some of my lot believe! In our version of purgatory you have your sins cleansed for a fixed period and some Jews believe EVERYONE goes to heaven bat the end of their time in purgatory, I find this a bit hard to stomach tbh.


Why?


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 3, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> in that case i'd rather go to hell, there'll be some legroom.



Yeah I know, right? Its just mental .


----------



## Greebo (Jan 3, 2014)

cesare said:


> "than which" what, though?


As a measure of distance and location, relative to where it currently is/was.


----------



## elbows (Jan 3, 2014)




----------



## frogwoman (Jan 3, 2014)

Edie said:


> Why?



Because you could end up with Hitler and the like in heaven, also the whole idea of purgatory is slightly weird.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Jan 3, 2014)

It's all bollocks anyway. No one goes to heaven. There is no heaven. Nor hell.

No offence to anyone who thinks otherwise though.


----------



## cesare (Jan 3, 2014)

Greebo said:


> As a measure of distance and location, relative to where it currently is/was.


What he said didn't make sense though!


----------



## Greebo (Jan 3, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Because you could end up with Hitler and the like in heaven, also the whole idea of purgatory is slightly weird.


Also the Devil has all the best tunes, while God has Cliff Richard and Daniel O'Donnell.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 3, 2014)

Frances Lengel said:


> It's all bollocks anyway. No one goes to heaven. There is no heaven. Nor hell.
> 
> No offence to anyone who thinks otherwise though.



Well we can't say that until after we've died and as far as I know nobody's ever come back to tell us about heaven, hell, purgatory etc. It's better to concentrate on living a good life on earth, you make your heaven and hell on earth IMO. Equally nobody's ever come back to let us know it's all bollocks.


----------



## Edie (Jan 3, 2014)

elbows said:


>


used to love that tune, not heard it in years


----------



## revol68 (Jan 3, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Well we can't say that until after we've died and as far as I know nobody's ever come back to tell us about heaven, hell, purgatory etc. It's better to concentrate on living a good life on earth, you make your heaven and hell on earth IMO. Equally nobody's ever come back to let us know it's all bollocks.



there's a dragon at the end of your street...


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 3, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Well we can't say that until after we've died and as far as I know nobody's ever come back to tell us about heaven, hell, purgatory etc. It's better to concentrate on living a good life on earth, you make your heaven and hell on earth IMO.


what?  you mean jesus didn't tell people what they could expect?


----------



## bamalama (Jan 3, 2014)

Greebo said:


> Also the Devil has all the best tunes, while God has Cliff Richard and Daniel O'Donnell.


And johnny cash


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 3, 2014)

bamalama said:


> And johnny cash


and aled jones


----------



## elbows (Jan 3, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Because you could end up with Hitler and the like in heaven, also the whole idea of purgatory is slightly weird.



I don't really understand the point of half-hearted forgiveness on the spiritual plane. All or nothing, or its just a nonsense of vengeful, petty god(s).

The whole 'love your enemy' and 'turn the other cheek' stuff interests me. Sure there are many scenarios where it seems like a weak and dangerous plan, but then again there seems to be some interesting potential there, if done right. I don't have much faith that it could ever happen, but anything that could break vicious circles is at least worth some occasional pondering in my book. 

And I certainly don't see the point in loving only those that it is easy to love.


----------



## bamalama (Jan 3, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> and aled jones


And lee perry


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 3, 2014)

http://www.jewfaq.org/m/olamhaba.htm

Just found this for anyone interested.


----------



## LiamO (Jan 3, 2014)

bamalama said:


> And johnny cash



and Kris Kristoferson


----------



## LiamO (Jan 3, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> It's better to concentrate on living a good life on earth, you make your heaven and hell on earth IMO.



this.

It's all metaphors anyway.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 3, 2014)

elbows said:


> I don't really understand the point of half-hearted forgiveness on the spiritual plane. All or nothing, or its just a nonsense of vengeful, petty god(s).
> 
> The whole 'love your enemy' and 'turn the other cheek' stuff interests me. Sure there are many scenarios where it seems like a weak and dangerous plan, but then again there seems to be some interesting potential there, if done right. I don't have much faith that it could ever happen, but anything that could break vicious circles is at least worth some occasional pondering in my book.
> 
> And I certainly don't see the point in loving only those that it is easy to love.



Oh totally, I agree with all that. I don't think things like forgiveness and redemption are unique to Christianity though I don't think you have to be a Christian to believe that there can be hope for almost anyone, I really hope I haven't given the impression I believe some harsh shit, of course we all fuck up, its just that to me being a good person and trying not to cause misery and suffering has got to be more important than what you believe on a theological level.


----------



## cesare (Jan 3, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> tbh now greebo's said that dwyer can bore his own cheeks what hope is there for him to entertain anyone?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 3, 2014)

& and pan's people


----------



## Greebo (Jan 3, 2014)

bamalama said:


> And johnny cash


Johnny Cash is debatable - I reckon he'd have taken one look at heaven and decided it was too boring for him.


----------



## bamalama (Jan 3, 2014)




----------



## LiamO (Jan 3, 2014)

My favourite quote on religion and metaphor....

“Half the people in the world think that the metaphors of their religious traditions, for example, are facts. And the other half contends that they are not facts at all. As a result we have people who consider themselves believers because they accept metaphors as facts, and we have others who classify themselves as atheists because they think religious metaphors are lies.” ―Joseph Campbell,_Thou Art That: Transforming Religious Metaphor_

... plenty of the second kind on here.


----------



## bamalama (Jan 3, 2014)

Greebo said:


> Johnny Cash is debatable - I reckon he'd have taken one look at heaven and decided it was too boring for him.


Nah, sure the fragrant june's already there


----------



## bamalama (Jan 3, 2014)




----------



## Greebo (Jan 3, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> tbh now greebo's said that dwyer can bore his own cheeks what hope is there for him to entertain anyone?


Don't beat around the bush, just come right out and say what you think next time.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 3, 2014)

Edie said:


> Is that hippy bullshit? .



You're being scathing towards... and namecalling... your own beliefs.


----------



## imposs1904 (Jan 3, 2014)

Apologies if this link has been posted before but we're 39 pages in and I can't scroll through every page:

Assorted wankers doing the quenelle


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 3, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Edited because hey, why be a cunt?



Nah, too tired.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 3, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> one of the more nauseating US christian phrases for this is 'Soul winning'. Fucking permanent war,losses gains victory/defeat...always so binary.
> .



Sort of like dar al islam; and dar al harb?


----------



## Greebo (Jan 3, 2014)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> Nah, too tired.


If you want to snipe, at least do it well.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 3, 2014)

Greebo said:


> If you want to snipe, at least do it well.



Really good sniping leads to really hard feelings.


----------



## cesare (Jan 3, 2014)

imposs1904 said:


> Apologies if this link has been posted before but we're 39 pages in and I can't scroll through every page:
> 
> Assorted wankers doing the quenelle


It was posted within nanoseconds of the thread starting


----------



## imposs1904 (Jan 3, 2014)

cesare said:


> It was posted within nanoseconds of the thread starting



 Maybe the link should be permanently pinned on every page of this thread.


----------



## cesare (Jan 3, 2014)

imposs1904 said:


> Maybe the link should be permanently pinned on every page of this thread.


 Good idea


----------



## Greebo (Jan 3, 2014)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> Really good sniping leads to really hard feelings.


Which is what I was trying to avert when I got VP to amend what he posted.  So fuck you and fuck the half-rotted flyblown carcass of a misbegotten donkey you rode in on.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 3, 2014)

Greebo said:


> Which is what I was trying to avert when I got VP to amend what he posted.  So fuck you and fuck the half-rotted flyblown carcass of a misbegotten donkey you rode in on.



You did avert it: but now you want to try to get it going yourself?

Sorry: I have a bus to catch.


----------



## Casually Red (Jan 3, 2014)

just so im up to speed..this quenelle thing usent to be an anti semitic thing at the beginning but it is now ? Am I right ?


----------



## Greebo (Jan 3, 2014)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> You did avert it: but now you want to try to get it going yourself?


Next time, don't have a go at my partner when he tries to do the right thing, albeit belatedly.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 3, 2014)

Greebo said:


> Next time, don't have a go at my partner when he tries to do the right thing, albeit belatedly.



"Nah: too tired" is 'having a go' in your books.

Go figure.

I didn't realize that it was forbidden to communicate with your partner, without first clearing the communication with you. In all the years up to now, he seemed to be handling things just fine.


----------



## Greebo (Jan 3, 2014)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> <snip>I didn't realize that it was forbidden to communicate with your partner, without first clearing the communication with you.<snip>


It isn't.  I had my reasons, and I'm not answerable to you.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 3, 2014)

Greebo said:


> If you want to snipe, at least do it well.



This wasn't an invitation, then?


----------



## Greebo (Jan 3, 2014)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> This wasn't an invitation, then?


No.  Bye.


----------



## revol68 (Jan 3, 2014)

Casually Red said:


> just so im up to speed..this quenelle thing usent to be an anti semitic thing at the beginning but it is now ? Am I right ?



no, you cretin.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Jan 3, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> What is this, a tupperware party?



Can we take your unwillingness to deal with the substance of the post you're replying to here as an admission that you were talking out of your arse and being an idiotic cunt again?


----------



## xslavearcx (Jan 3, 2014)

Greebo said:


> Also the Devil has all the best tunes, while God has Cliff Richard and Daniel O'Donnell.



and stryper.


----------



## Wilf (Jan 3, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Well we can't say that until after we've died and as far as I know nobody's ever come back to tell us about heaven, hell, purgatory etc. .


 To be fair, frances is from Rochdale - that gives him some first hand knowledge, surely?

[coat ]


----------



## LiamO (Jan 3, 2014)

Casually Red said:


> just so im up to speed..this quenelle thing usent to be an anti semitic thing at the beginning but it is now ? Am I right ?



according to FNG, yer man introduced it to the world in a piece about dolphins having had it 'up to here' with humans. Then it developed into an 'anti-establishment/anti-Zionist' gesture. That was a few years back AFAIK, possibly when he was still 'of the extreme left' though still avowedly 'anti-zionist'.

Since then he has crossed and uncrossed and crossed the line again into at first guarded and then blatant anti-semitism... then stamped all over the fuckin line... and palled up with all kinds of sleazeballs and outright Fash... which would be peculiar if he was in any way interested in maintaining he is anti-Zionist as opposed to anti-Jewish.

Dunno what the _exact_ story with the 'Shoahannas' thing is (Hebrew for the Holocaust is Shoah and french for pineapple is ananas) but basically it's about as offensive as you could get... and has apparently led to loads of dicks doing the Quennelle while also holding a pineapple at Holocaust memorials etc.

What I'd be interested in knowing is the timeline and nuances of this development and, more importantly, how widespread the thing is amongst ordinary french youth (and adults).

e2a; I really can't think of an example of a social craze/phrase in english that has made anything like the same journey.


----------



## Wilf (Jan 3, 2014)

revol68 said:


> no, you cretin.


Developing a 'light touch' wasn't one of your new year resolutions then?


----------



## LiamO (Jan 3, 2014)

Wilf said:


> To be fair, frances is from Rochdale - that gives him some first hand knowledge, surely?



say it ain't so Frances Lengel... I thought you were a Manc... not a woolly-back.


----------



## xslavearcx (Jan 3, 2014)

Frances Lengel said:


> This was always my favourite hymn. Sounds a bit country. And didn't Kristoffeson once say if it sounds country it is country - It's a country song? That'll do for me anyway.
> 
> 
> And this one. But when we sang it back in the juniors, we used to give it "walk, wa-ah-ah-ha-ha, walk in the light of the lord". Good times.




surprised none of the catholic backgrounds amongst us, hasn't posted this one up. was always sung in gusto at my school 



(although this guy totally murders it)


----------



## killer b (Jan 3, 2014)

trying to forget that shit tbf.


----------



## LiamO (Jan 3, 2014)

you can't forget. There is no escape.


----------



## killer b (Jan 3, 2014)

surely Graham Kendrick is the strongest weapon atheism has?


----------



## Casually Red (Jan 3, 2014)

revol68 said:


> no, you cretin.



ok, tell me how dolphins are anti semitic, mingefeatures


----------



## Casually Red (Jan 3, 2014)

xslavearcx said:


> and stryper.



and beyonce, aretha franklin, marvin gaye, handl


----------



## Frances Lengel (Jan 3, 2014)

LiamO said:


> say it ain't so Frances Lengel... I thought you were a Manc... not a woolly-back.



I'm not from the dale (thank fuck), I just spent a good few years in the wilderness living there.


----------



## Edie (Jan 3, 2014)

elbows said:


> I don't really understand the point of half-hearted forgiveness on the spiritual plane. All or nothing, or its just a nonsense of vengeful, petty god(s).
> 
> The whole 'love your enemy' and 'turn the other cheek' stuff interests me. Sure there are many scenarios where it seems like a weak and dangerous plan, but then again there seems to be some interesting potential there, if done right. I don't have much faith that it could ever happen, but anything that could break vicious circles is at least worth some occasional pondering in my book.
> 
> And I certainly don't see the point in loving only those that it is easy to love.


Absolutely. God's willingness to mend, forgive, lift guilt is without limit. You can't shrink it down because you want to frogwoman, you can't turn it into a Get Out of Jail Free card for those YOU deem worthy of grace. Otherwise God is diminished to human justice writ large.

Is it uncomfortable to think Hitler and Ian Watkins may be forgiven, that Norwegian summer camp massacres and people who fly planes into tower blocks may be loved? Yes. Of course it is!

But would you prefer the alternative idea? 

God wants EVERY soul. Not just those you wish to define as deserving.

God has to be big enough to handle horror. At least in my mind.


----------



## LiamO (Jan 3, 2014)

You're in big trouble when PC Juliet Bravo reads that Edie


----------



## Edie (Jan 3, 2014)

LiamO said:


> You're in big trouble when PC Juliet Bravo reads that Edie


Who the fucks that? Should I edit quickly? Do you Mr What, fucking what?


----------



## editor (Jan 3, 2014)

Edie said:


> God wants EVERY soul. Not just those you wish to define as deserving.


PS God doesn't actually exist, you know.


----------



## Edie (Jan 3, 2014)

editor said:


> PS God doesn't actually exist, you know.


That is SUCH a fucking irritating comment I feel like stomping down to Brixton and having it fucking out with you.

How the FUCK would YOU know! What, a philosophical question that for millennia humans have wrestled with, the sum total of mans investigation into theology, summarised by a fuckin smug PS! Think on ffs.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Jan 3, 2014)

Edie said:


> That is SUCH a fucking irritating comment I feel like stomping down to Brixton and having it fucking out with you.
> 
> How the FUCK would YOU know! What, a philosophical question that for millennia humans have wrestled with, the sum total of mans investigation into theology, summarised by a fuckin smug PS! Think on ffs.



Even though I don't believe in God, that was a mint post.


----------



## Buckaroo (Jan 3, 2014)

Torn between this thread and Forrest Gump


----------



## LiamO (Jan 3, 2014)

Edie said:


> Who the fucks that?



B.A. He's the thread sherrif round these here parts... and he don't like no God-talk.


----------



## DexterTCN (Jan 3, 2014)

Edie said:


> That is SUCH a fucking irritating comment I feel like stomping down to Brixton and having it fucking out with you.
> 
> How the FUCK would YOU know! What, a philosophical question that for millennia humans have wrestled with, the sum total of mans investigation into theology, summarised by a fuckin smug PS! Think on ffs.


You'll just have to forgive him, then.


----------



## Edie (Jan 3, 2014)

LiamO said:


> B.A. He's the thread sherrif round these here parts


Oh bring it. I'll think what I want.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 3, 2014)

Edie said:


> That is SUCH a fucking irritating comment I feel like stomping down to Brixton and having it fucking out with you.
> 
> How the FUCK would YOU know! What, a philosophical question that for millennia humans have wrestled with, the sum total of mans investigation into theology, summarised by a fuckin smug PS! Think on ffs.


editor's right mind


----------



## Frances Lengel (Jan 3, 2014)

LiamO said:


> B.A. He's the thread sherrif round these here parts



Haystacks? He's a trumpet. And a Thatcherite - He knows full well his abrasive posting style upsets people (not me though), but he still steamrollers on with the attitude "If you don't like the way I post that's your hard luck" - Which is not just a Thatcherite attitude but a quintessentially Thatcherite attitude if you ask me.

I just think he's a wally though, I used to think he was halfway having a laugh, or even conducting some weird experiment in what people will allow to be possible, but now I'm coming round to thinking there's a lot less to him than meets.

E2a the eye.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 3, 2014)

Frances Lengel said:


> Which is not just a Thatcherite attitude but a quintessentially Thatcherite attitude if you ask me.


i'm missing where the policies of privatisation, monetarism and self-help attitude core to thatcherite politics can be found in that attitude. or are you just using thatcherite as an insult?


----------



## editor (Jan 3, 2014)

Edie said:


> How the FUCK would YOU know! What, a philosophical question that for millennia humans have wrestled with, the sum total of mans investigation into theology, summarised by a fuckin smug PS! Think on ffs.


LOL. And your actual proof of this invisible God's supposed existence is..... _a big fat ZERO_, so cut out the unpleasant abuse if you don't mind. Besides, your non existent God wouldn't like it either (depending on which version you're electing to believe in, of course).


----------



## killer b (Jan 3, 2014)

where's the unpleasant abuse? you were being a smirking twat tbf.


----------



## editor (Jan 3, 2014)

Edie said:


> That is SUCH a fucking irritating comment I feel like stomping down to Brixton and having it fucking out with you.


Tsk tsk. Violent threats, eh?


----------



## Edie (Jan 3, 2014)

butchers is astonishingly clever but he can be a *right* cunt if you won't agree with him. He doesn't care about upsetting people to make a point which I despise sometimes. And leads to a lot of people kissing his arse. I dislike that more tbh. He's infuriatingly right often though, specially if you read shit back a while after, but fuck me at the time it can be like fighting a cryptic crossword with a hate grudge.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 3, 2014)

Edie said:


> Absolutely. God's willingness to mend, forgive, lift guilt is without limit. You can't shrink it down because you want to frogwoman, you can't turn it into a Get Out of Jail Free card for those YOU deem worthy of grace. Otherwise God is diminished to human justice writ large.
> 
> Is it uncomfortable to think Hitler and Ian Watkins may be forgiven, that Norwegian summer camp massacres and people who fly planes into tower blocks may be loved? Yes. Of course it is!
> 
> ...



I wouldn't have a problem with any of the above if those sort of beliefs weren't so often tied to judging people that believe something different or used as stick to beat people with while promoting violence. I wouldn't have a problem with people believing any of that and I dont. I agree that sometimes we fuck up, that nobody is perfect, that sometimes 'good' people can do horrible horrible shit. It is just that the idea that everything is forgiven is a bit sickening combined with the extreme intolerance shown by some - SOME - people that say they are all about that. I'm not saying that if you fuck up that's it and that I believe some harsh shit. I just think there has to be a line somewhere you know? A loving god would forgive almost anything. But I don't like getting lectures on this stuff from people who don't practice it in their own lives and whose actions and beliefs lead to the type of behaviour that's described in the thread. At that point I'd say it is my concern because what they say and do affects my quality of life and the decent society. I'm not saying you do this, I'm just saying I find it very objectionable. Especially when that love involves accepting a set of views about unprovable spiritual matters that people have killed entirely innocent people for.

That's all I'm saying. Not that you shouldn't believe it or that I don't believe people are redeemable, fuck I've done enough bad things in my life.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 3, 2014)

Edie said:


> butchers is astonishingly clever but he can be a *right* cunt if you won't agree with him. He doesn't care about upsetting people to make a point which I despise sometimes. And leads to a lot of people kissing his arse. I dislike that more tbh. He's infuriatingly right often though, specially if you read shit back a while after, but fuck me at the time it can be like fighting a cryptic crossword with a hate grudge.


stop fighting then


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 3, 2014)

Edie said:


> God wants EVERY soul. Not just those you wish to define as deserving.


so god sounds a bit like elric's sword stormbringer.


----------



## Edie (Jan 3, 2014)

editor said:


> Tsk tsk. Violent threats, eh?


Oh please.

Shall I edit it out and apologise?


----------



## editor (Jan 3, 2014)

killer b said:


> where's the unpleasant abuse? you were being a smirking twat tbf.


Great to see you're as predictable and as dull as ever with your readiness to leap in and throw around some unprovoked personal abuse. Well done. Give yourself a button badge.


----------



## editor (Jan 3, 2014)

Edie said:


> Oh please.
> 
> Shall I edit it out and apologise?


What does your God say you should do?


----------



## LiamO (Jan 3, 2014)

someone didn't get his Snickers tonight. Never mind _I forgive you_.


----------



## editor (Jan 3, 2014)

LiamO said:


> someone didn't get his Snickers tonight.


Someone isn't making any sense.


----------



## LiamO (Jan 3, 2014)

yes. That's true. Who is it?

Copyright Butchers apron.


----------



## Edie (Jan 3, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> I wouldn't have a problem with any of the above if those sort of beliefs weren't so often tied to judging people that believe something different or used as stick to beat people with while promoting violence. I wouldn't have a problem with people believing any of that and I dont. I agree that sometimes we fuck up, that nobody is perfect, that sometimes 'good' people can do horrible horrible shit. It is just that the idea that everything is forgiven is a bit sickening combined with the extreme intolerance shown by some - SOME - people that say they are all about that. I'm not saying that if you fuck up that's it and that I believe some harsh shit. I just think there has to be a line somewhere you know? A loving god would forgive almost anything. But I don't like getting lectures on this stuff from people who don't practice it in their own lives and whose actions and beliefs lead to the type of behaviour that's described in the thread. At that point I'd say it is my concern because what they say and do affects my quality of life and the decent society. I'm not saying you do this, I'm just saying I find it very objectionable. Especially when that love involves accepting a set of views about unprovable spiritual matters that people have killed entirely innocent people for.
> 
> That's all I'm saying. Not that you shouldn't believe it or that I don't believe people are redeemable, fuck I've done enough bad things in my life.


I've still no idea what you actually believe tbh


----------



## Edie (Jan 3, 2014)

editor said:


> What does your God say you should do?


What's up with you?


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 3, 2014)

Edie said:


> I've still no idea what you actually believe tbh



Nor do I tbh.


----------



## editor (Jan 3, 2014)

Edie said:


> What's up with you?


Just wondering why you should explode with intolerant rage just because I dared express a personal viewpoint that you didn't like.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 3, 2014)

editor said:


> LOL. And your actual proof of this invisible God's supposed existence is..... _a big fat ZERO_, so cut out the unpleasant abuse if you don't mind. Besides, your non existent God wouldn't like it either (depending on which version you're electing to believe in, of course).



God is not like the Loch Ness Monster or the Yeti.

He is not the kind of Being who either does or does not exist.


----------



## Edie (Jan 3, 2014)

editor said:


> What does your God say you should do?


Right, I've spoken to God. He says your a bit of a dick and to kick your arse on the internet. HTH.


----------



## editor (Jan 3, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> God is not like the Loch Ness Monster or the Yeti.
> 
> He is not the kind of Being who either does or does not exist.


Whatever floats your fantasy boat, phil...


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 3, 2014)

editor said:


> Whatever floats your fantasy boat, phil...



God is what makes existence possible.


----------



## editor (Jan 3, 2014)

Edie said:


> Right, I've spoken to God. He says your a bit of a dick and to kick your arse on the internet. HTH.


That sounds about right for what some people say God wants. According to them, he seems to be always telling people to go around threatening, murdering and maiming others for some vague abstract reason or another.


----------



## editor (Jan 3, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> God is what makes existence possible.


Sure it does, phil.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 3, 2014)

editor said:


> Sure it does, phil.



Something does, doesn't it?

What do you think that something is?

I bet no-one has ever asked you that before.


----------



## Edie (Jan 3, 2014)

editor said:


> Just wondering why you should explode with intolerant rage just because I dared express a personal viewpoint that you didn't like.


Your viewpoint itself is utterly irrelevant. Your delivery was problematic.


----------



## editor (Jan 3, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Something does, doesn't it?
> 
> What do you think that something is?
> 
> I bet no-one has ever asked you that before.


Gosh. So profound.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 3, 2014)

editor said:


> Gosh. So profound.



But answer came there none.


----------



## editor (Jan 3, 2014)

Edie said:


> Your viewpoint itself is utterly irrelevant. Your delivery was problematic.


Personally, I found your abusive outburst far more problematic.


----------



## Edie (Jan 3, 2014)

Seeing as you can't actually fight with editor without being banned I'm out of this un.


----------



## editor (Jan 3, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> But answer came there none.


God told me to keep it to myself. He didn't want me to let the cat out of the bag.


----------



## editor (Jan 3, 2014)

Edie said:


> Seeing as you can't actually fight with editor without being banned I'm out of this un.


And now you're resorting to posting up blatant lies. Shame on you.


----------



## DexterTCN (Jan 3, 2014)

Edie said:


> Seeing as you can't actually fight with editor without being banned I'm out of this un.


Not as bad as what God would do, to be fair.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 3, 2014)

editor said:


> God told me to keep it to myself. He didn't want me to let the cat out of the bag.



It's no great mystery.

You won't get far here if you only come to mock.  We think that's rather stupid and pathetic round here.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jan 3, 2014)

editor said:


> Personally, I found your abusive outburst far more problematic.



You found post #1206 abusive? 

Jesus.


----------



## editor (Jan 3, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> You won't get far here if you only come to mock.  We think that's rather stupid and pathetic round here.


Bless. Phil's trying the time-honoured "we" line again. It doesn't half make you look silly, you know.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 3, 2014)

Edie said:


> I've still no idea what you actually believe tbh



Nor do I. I am a bit observant and believe in God a bit but got no idea if there's something out there, I try and be a good person although I don't always succeed and I follow a lot of it because find it comforting and helps me to be disciplined. I do believe a bit but I've got too many doubts to be as religious as I used to be, but having doubts and questioning things is really important. And that's not just true of religion it's true of anything.


----------



## editor (Jan 3, 2014)

Mr.Bishie said:


> You found post #1206 abusive?
> 
> Jesus.


I did find the bit about "stomping down to Brixton and having it fucking out with you" a little abusive, yes.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 3, 2014)

editor said:


> Bless. Phil's trying the time-honoured "we" line again. It doesn't half make you look silly, you know.



You should read the first chapter of _The Brothers Karamazov._

It's about a mocker. 

It's called "The Old Buffoon."


----------



## LiamO (Jan 3, 2014)

Edie said:


> Seeing as you can't actually fight with editor without being banned I'm out of this un.



Yeah. Bit of a God-complex innit.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jan 3, 2014)

editor said:


> I did find the bit about "stomping down to Brixton and having it fucking out with you" a little abusive, yes.



It was rhetorical. Even I saw that


----------



## editor (Jan 3, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> You should read the first chapter of _The Brothers Karamazov._
> 
> It's about a mocker.
> 
> It's called "The Old Buffoon."


No thanks, although you should perhaps reflect on why you suddenly felt empowered to speak on behalf of these unnamed others mid-debate.


----------



## LiamO (Jan 3, 2014)

editor said:


> I did find the bit about "stomping down to Brixton and having it fucking out with you" a little abusive, yes.



Well I'm going to stomp over to my local and 'have it fucking out with you' in my head


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 3, 2014)

And as regards purgatory and all that, well we won't know until we're there so no point even thinking about it in my opinion.


----------



## editor (Jan 3, 2014)

LiamO said:


> Well I'm going to stomp over to my local and 'have it fucking out with you' in my head


Oh, that's very good. Right up there with your best.


----------



## LiamO (Jan 3, 2014)

Have a snickers...


----------



## Frances Lengel (Jan 3, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> i'm missing where the policies of privatisation, monetarism and self-help attitude core to thatcherite politics can be found in that attitude. or are you just using thatcherite as an insult?



Well no, Haystacks himself has used Thatcherite as an adjective to describe selfish behaviour or an "I'm doing what I'm doing and I don't give a fuck what you think about it" type attitude, so I think it only fair that the same rules should apply to our country cousin.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 3, 2014)

editor said:


> No thanks



There is no defence against wilfull ignorance.


----------



## LiamO (Jan 3, 2014)

LiamO said:


> Well I'm going to stomp over to my local and 'have it fucking out with you' in my head



Ha. Did it without even leaving me chair. You took quite a verbal (rhetorical) spanking I can tell you. I might find it hard to forgive myself


----------



## editor (Jan 3, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> There is no defence against wilfull ignorance.


From the man that can't even spell 'willful'.  Truly priceless!


----------



## Yelkcub (Jan 3, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> I was talking about what some of my lot believe! In our version of purgatory you have your sins cleansed for a fixed period and some Jews believe EVERYONE goes to heaven bat the end of their time in purgatory, I find this a bit hard to stomach tbh.



I didn't know that! Any links for further detail? I'll google too, of course.


----------



## LiamO (Jan 3, 2014)

better make that two snickers, Joanie


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 3, 2014)

editor said:


> From the man that can't even spell 'willful'.  Truly priceless.



It's the American spelling.


----------



## Edie (Jan 3, 2014)

In all honesty that post wasn't even intended to be abusive! The bit about Brixton was bordering on affectionate in my mind


----------



## Frances Lengel (Jan 3, 2014)

editor said:


> Tsk tsk. Violent threats, eh?



Ah now come on. Tell me honestly that you took that as a genuine threat of violence.

You were a bit condescending in your dismissal of Edie's belief in god - She took umbrage and pulled you up on the way you said what you were saying. Let's not blow it up into something more than it is.


----------



## elbows (Jan 3, 2014)

Well at least nobody posted any Phil Collins songs. Gods mercy be praised.


----------



## Yelkcub (Jan 3, 2014)

Yelkcub said:


> I didn't know that! Any links for further detail? I'll google too, of course.



Just read it's a 12 month stretch. That fuck all against eternity, presuming that's a thing too?


----------



## Edie (Jan 3, 2014)

Frances Lengel said:


> Ah now come on. Tell me honestly that you took that as a genuine threat of violence.
> 
> You were a bit condescending in your dismissal of Edie's belief in god - She took umbrage and pulled you up on the way you said what you were saying. Let's not blow it up into something more than it is.


It's fuckin bollocks and he knows it.


----------



## editor (Jan 3, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> It's the American spelling.


There's some more wilful ignorance, right there. 


> *Willful *is the American spelling of the adjective meaning (1) _done on purpose_, or (2) _intent on having one’s own way_. *Wilful *is the preferred spelling in all the main varieties of English from outside North America. Both spellings appear about equally often in Canadian publications.
> http://grammarist.com/spelling/wilful-willful/


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 3, 2014)

Frances Lengel said:


> Ah now come on. Tell me honestly that you took that as a genuine threat of violence.



He's quaking in his boots man.

He's hiding underneath the bar of the Albert.  Quivering with fright he is, quivering.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 3, 2014)

Yelkcub said:


> I didn't know that! Any links for further detail? I'll google too, of course.



http://www.jewfaq.org/m/olamhaba.htm goes into all the different afterlife possibilities. All completely unprovable of course and according to some we shouldn't even be thinking About it because you should be concentrating on living a good life because we want to not because of an unearthly reward.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 3, 2014)

editor said:


> There's some more wilful ignorance, right there.



It's the Australian spelling.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Jan 3, 2014)

What's a spare letter "L" between friends though? Unless we're selling stone on the corner of  sesame street and twenty fifth?


----------



## editor (Jan 3, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> He's quaking in his boots man.
> 
> He's hiding underneath the bar of the Albert.  Quivering with fright he is, quivering.


This is a bit like when ernesto came back. I'm off down the pub.


----------



## LiamO (Jan 3, 2014)

good. Buy a chill pill while you are there.


----------



## editor (Jan 3, 2014)

LiamO said:


> good. Buy a chill pill while you are there.


It's not me that's been all sweary and uptight here, sunshine!


----------



## brogdale (Jan 3, 2014)

So how many Nazi footballers is that now?


----------



## LiamO (Jan 3, 2014)

None. On that everyone is agreed.


----------



## Edie (Jan 3, 2014)

Y'know what, I still don't even know who Anelka is or what the fuck a quinelle is when it's at home  Really must read the start of the thread tomorrow. Night all


----------



## Frances Lengel (Jan 3, 2014)

Edie said:


> Y'know what, I still don't even know who Anelka is or what the fuck a quinelle is when it's at home  Really must read the start of the thread tomorrow. Night all



The latter half of the thread is far more entertaining than the former half TBH.


----------



## DexterTCN (Jan 3, 2014)

brogdale said:


> So how many black, muslim, nazi footballers is that now?


edited for clarity  

Answer...zero.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Jan 3, 2014)

editor said:


> It's not me that's been all sweary and uptight here, sunshine!



Tough is the man who calls another man sunshine.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jan 3, 2014)

Edie said:


> Y'know what, I still don't even know who Anelka is or what the fuck a quinelle is when it's at home  Really must read the start of the thread tomorrow. Night all



Page 1-13 just about covers it


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 3, 2014)

Anyway..on the forgiveness thing, in one school assembly trey showed us a video about it comparing Jamie Bulger's mum to somebody whose kid had been killed in an accident and forgiven the perpetrator. The subtext of the video was look how miserable she is and its because she hasn't forgiven them, whereas the person who forgave the perpetrators who also happened to be religious, seemed like they were having a great time but she was completely bitter and twisted. I know a lot more now through reading about the case, but even then when I got home and told my mum, she was like, well it's different because her son was murdered and you can't condemn her and say it's her fault her life is shit because she didn't forgive them, and to me looking back on it it strikes me like a bit of emotional blackmail that you'll be a better person for forgiving people or at least making a public show of having done so. I suppose that's part of my problem with it  Edie strange how these things stick with you eh


----------



## brogdale (Jan 3, 2014)

DexterTCN said:


> edited for clarity
> 
> Answer...zero.


 Back OT, then.


----------



## editor (Jan 3, 2014)

Frances Lengel said:


> Tough is the man who calls another man sunshine.


Desperate is the man who tries to score points with this particular line of argument.


----------



## DexterTCN (Jan 3, 2014)

brogdale said:


> Back OT, then.


Fuck no.	They'll come back.


----------



## brogdale (Jan 3, 2014)

...or maybe not.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Jan 3, 2014)

editor said:


> Desperate is the man who tries to score points with this particular line of argument.



Maybe. But I do still _win_ though don't I?

On points


----------



## brogdale (Jan 3, 2014)

Di Canio? Or is that going back too far?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 3, 2014)

no one banned? 

it's not like the auld days


----------



## Kidda (Jan 3, 2014)

editor said:


> PS God doesn't actually exist, you know.



You got any proof of that ed?


----------



## goldenecitrone (Jan 3, 2014)

God does exist, but only in our minds. It is our duty to think God out of existence. Fuck you God!


----------



## LiamO (Jan 3, 2014)

brogdale said:


> Di Canio? Or is that going back too far?



Di Canio is a Fascist, not a Nazi.


----------



## Wilf (Jan 3, 2014)

Edie said:


> it can be like fighting a cryptic crossword with a hate grudge.


----------



## Yelkcub (Jan 4, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Anyway..on the forgiveness thing, in one school assembly *trey* showed us a video about it comparing Jamie Bulger's mum to somebody whose kid had been killed in an accident and forgiven the perpetrator.


  Fuckin' Trey, alway pulling that shit


----------



## LiamO (Jan 4, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> no one banned?
> 
> it's not like the auld days



In fairness, he still has to come _back_ from the pub. The Country awaits with bated breath...


----------



## Wilf (Jan 4, 2014)

Frances Lengel said:


> I'm not from the dale (thank fuck), I just spent a good few years in the wilderness living there.


When I lived in Heywood (part of Rochdale Borough for the uninitiated) everybody said 'Rochdale gets all't fookin money spent on it, shops, buses, Christmas decorations...'.  Imagine what it's like growing up somewhere that's _envious_ of Rochdale.


----------



## Casually Red (Jan 4, 2014)

Heres what I reckon *might* have happened .

That dick Anelka was using the thing in its original non dodgy _stick it up your arse _sense , just because he scored against west ham . Like he was giving the middle finger to the fans in a sneaky frenchie way , a _fuck you_ they wouldnt understand but he could chuckle at. But then he was called on it due to the other way its used , and couldnt say he was saying _fuck you_ to the fans as hed have got into trouble with the FA for doing that. 
And as a result his relationship with his anti semitic mate has now come to the fore and everyone knows it now . The lesson of which is _your sins shall seek ye out_. As the Lord moves in mysterious ways.

thats my theory


----------



## Wilf (Jan 4, 2014)

Casually Red said:


> As the Lord moves in mysterious ways.


In a religiously themed thread with an occasional grammarian twist, I'm wondering if he will be smote down or smitten?


----------



## elbows (Jan 4, 2014)

goldenecitrone said:


> God does exist, but only in our minds. It is our duty to think God out of existence. Fuck you God!


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 4, 2014)

Exactly, tgers


Casually Red said:


> Heres what I reckon *might* have happened .
> 
> That dick Anelka was using the thing in its original non dodgy _stick it up your arse _sense , just because he scored against west ham . Like he was giving the middle finger to the fans in a sneaky frenchie way , a _fuck you_ they wouldnt understand but he could chuckle at. But then he was called on it due to the other way its used , and couldnt say he was saying _fuck you_ to the fans as hed have got into trouble with the FA for doing that.
> And as a result his relationship with his anti semitic mate has now come to the fore and everyone knows it now . The lesson of which is _your sins shall seek ye out_. As the Lord moves in mysterious ways.
> ...



I'm not sure the original way of using it was non dodgy seeing as it was invented by dieudonne


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 4, 2014)

Dp


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 4, 2014)

.


----------



## Casually Red (Jan 4, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> .




yeah..but it was originally about a dolphin, and i dont think he was coming out with the anti semitic and NF stuff back then


----------



## LiamO (Jan 4, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Exactly, tgers
> 
> 
> I'm not sure the original way of using it was non dodgy seeing as it was invented by dieudonne



in a set about dolphins?


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 4, 2014)

LiamO said:


> in a set about dolphins?



Are you guys still saying anelka doesn't know what it means/is using it innocently?


----------



## Casually Red (Jan 4, 2014)

Wilf said:


> In a religiously themed thread with an occasional grammarian twist, I'm wondering if he will be smote down or smitten?



either ways fine by me


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 4, 2014)

Casually Red said:


> yeah..but it was originally about a dolphin, and i dont think he was coming out with the anti semitic and NF stuff back then



Umm this is 2014 and anelka is his mate?


----------



## Wilf (Jan 4, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Exactly, tgers
> 
> 
> I'm not sure the original way of using it was non dodgy seeing as it was invented by dieudonne


Indeed - and that's pretty central to the way this whole thing should be discussed.  There's always ambiguity, there's always a generalised 'fuck you' that hangs around any kind of extreme gesture, but when it's something invented by an anti-Semite you're pretty much into 'if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck' territory.


----------



## LiamO (Jan 4, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Are you guys still saying anelka doesn't know what it means/is using it innocently?



speaking for myself, that would be a resounding NON!


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 4, 2014)

Wilf said:


> Indeed - and that's pretty central to the way this whole thing should be discussed.  There's always ambiguity, there's always a generalised 'fuck you' that hangs around any kind of extreme gesture, but when it's something invented by an anti-Semite you're pretty much into 'if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck' territory.



Exactly, he's mates with someone known for public anti semitism and just said when challenged he'd 'clarify his actions on Twitter' ffs


----------



## Casually Red (Jan 4, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Are you guys still saying anelka doesn't know what it means/is using it innocently?




Not at all . My take on it is it had an original fuck you meaning, and people used it for that. But when Mbala Mbala went over to the dark side it took on a different meaning , anti semitism as well. But people still remembered the original one . Anelka used it in the non anti semitic sense against the hammers . And as a result ended up exposed as running about with a notorious anti semite and NF supporter. Which is a comeuppance I reckon .


----------



## DexterTCN (Jan 4, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Are you guys still saying anelka doesn't know what it means/is using it innocently?


I'm not a french, black, muslim...I wouldn't presume to know what he meant 

Do you know what he meant?


----------



## Wilf (Jan 4, 2014)

'It's not ant-semitic, I just wanted to show solidarity with my mate, the anti-Semitic bloke'.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 4, 2014)

Clarifying your actions on Twitter, ffs that's just like writing a status on Facebook. 'I am very annoyed with a certain person...you know you are! Press like if you want to stay on my friends list' how can that be any sort of apology or anything at all, ffs


----------



## Casually Red (Jan 4, 2014)

Wilf said:


> 'It's not ant-semitic, I just wanted to show solidarity with my mate, the anti-Semitic bloke'.



yeah...but if he said it was meant as _a stick it up your arse _to the hammers fans hed be in a lot more trouble . Unsportsmanlike behaviour, offensive gesture to fans in a goal celebration .

I agree with you hes definitely lying about what it meant . Its just that when he did it it looked to me like a fuck you to the fans.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 4, 2014)

Current mood: Pissed off
A certain person - you know who you are - is asking me to clarify my actions! 
(Passive aggressive message on a sunset)


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 4, 2014)

'Press like if you think I'm not antisemitic' 

Clarifying your actions onTwitter I fucking despair of this world.


----------



## DexterTCN (Jan 4, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> 'Press like if you think I'm not antisemitic'
> 
> Clarifying your actions onTwitter I fucking despair of this world.


He has 866000 followers.


----------



## Casually Red (Jan 4, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> 'Press like if you think I'm not antisemitic'
> 
> Clarifying your actions onTwitter I fucking despair of this world.



it wont even be him, itll be his agent


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 4, 2014)

DexterTCN said:


> He has 866000 followers.



So what?


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 4, 2014)

He's still thinking writing 140 character posts on fucking twitter is a substitute for an apology and say donating money to antifascist prisoners etc for example.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 4, 2014)

Maybe he should post that image on his Facebook wall and tag Jewish people on his list in it? Or perhaps he should send everyone a chain letter about how they will get good luck if they send it to 10 people but if they don't a ghost will kill their entire family and they will meet the man of their dreams and it will be fine because he's spreading good luck?


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 4, 2014)

Or maybe he can share this pic with his 886 000 twitter followers


----------



## killer b (Jan 4, 2014)

i always wonder what he's going to do with all those swords of wisdom.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 4, 2014)

killer b said:


> i always wonder what he's going to do with all those swords of wisdom.



Wonder no more, you thought it was just banal Facebook shit its actually an insightful political criticism.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 4, 2014)

Maybe he'll post this to diuedonne's wall while he's in court? Once he's finished clarifying his actions in 140 character Twitter posts


----------



## xslavearcx (Jan 4, 2014)

whats the kinda shit storm thats happening about this outside of this forum? i dont really do much internet besides this and dont have a twitter account etc? What im getting at, is this somethign that hes kinda being forced to be accountable about in some way or another??


----------



## Casually Red (Jan 4, 2014)

DexterTCN said:


> He has 866000 followers.









_pffft..._


----------



## MellySingsDoom (Jan 4, 2014)

xslavearcx said:


> whats the kinda shit storm thats happening about this outside of this forum? i dont really do much internet besides this and dont have a twitter account etc? What im getting at, is this somethign that hes kinda being forced to be accountable about in some way or another??



Well, he's "apologised" in as much as he says he won't do it again.  As for the more substantive points (his friendship with a known anti-Semite; his refusal so far to distance himself from said friend; making a clear stand on standing against anti-semitism,whoever propagates it), answer has come there none.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 4, 2014)

'I'm very sorry you feel that way'


----------



## xslavearcx (Jan 4, 2014)

FWIW i think there has been ample evidence to show on this thread that that gesture belongs to an anti-semitic signifying chain. and i think if one comes from the french speaking context, i think one would have to lead a very sheltered and naive existence to not know that there are anti-semetic connotations in that gesture...


----------



## MellySingsDoom (Jan 4, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> 'I'm very sorry you feel that way'



"Can I order a plate of massive Fail with my content-free "apology", please?"


----------



## Casually Red (Jan 4, 2014)

xslavearcx said:


> FWIW i think there has been ample evidence to show on this thread that that gesture belongs to an anti-semitic signifying chain. and i think if one comes from the french speaking context, i think one would have to lead a very sheltered and naive existence to not know that there are anti-semetic connotations in that gesture...



agreed, but has it not also been demonstrated that for quite a period it also had a non anti semitic meaning as well. Do we know is it always used to convey an anti semitic message or sometimes still its original one ? I dont think that has been proven .

Not any defence of Anelka, hes been caught red handed as best buddies with a nasty anti semitic FN hanger on . Damned in my eyes . I just for the life of me cant see why hed be making anti semitic gestures against West Ham . I think it was a fuck you to the fans, and hes bollocksed if he admits to that.


----------



## xslavearcx (Jan 4, 2014)

what would happen in terms of FA punishment if he admitted that it was just a fuck you to the fans?


----------



## Casually Red (Jan 4, 2014)

xslavearcx said:


> what would happen in terms of FA punishment if he admitted that it was just a fuck you to the fans?




not sure, but if hed been caught for it on the feild of play itd most likely be a yellow card and mebbe a disciplinary afterwards . Admitting afterwards would most likely be a disciplinary board, probably fine and mebbe miss a game or 2 .


----------



## revol68 (Jan 4, 2014)

Casually Red said:


> agreed, but has it not also been demonstrated that for quite a period it also had a non anti semitic meaning as well. Do we know is it always used to convey an anti semitic message or sometimes still its original one ? I dont think that has been proven .
> 
> Not any defence of Anelka, hes been caught red handed as best buddies with a nasty anti semitic FN hanger on . Damned in my eyes . I just for the life of me cant see why hed be making anti semitic gestures against West Ham . I think it was a fuck you to the fans, and hes bollocksed if he admits to that.



Leaving out dolphins, I'd suggest it's human political use has always been anti semitic, chirst it's an inverted seig heil ffs, and that even when your man was flirting with the left, he was always anti semitic albeit he encodes it in anti zionism (like most anti semites these days). Infact it is the centrality of anti semitism to his politics that allows him to flit between left and right so easy.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 4, 2014)

Yep, really not sure there could be an 'innocent' use especially not by dieudonne


----------



## redsquirrel (Jan 4, 2014)

xslavearcx said:


> FWIW i think there has been ample evidence to show on this thread that that gesture belongs to an anti-semitic signifying chain. and i think if one comes from the french speaking context, i think one would have to lead a very sheltered and naive existence to not know that there are anti-semetic connotations in that gesture...


Agreed, anyone who doesn't recognise this is either a mouth-breathing idiot stupider than a cabbage and/or a dodgy cunt who's unwilling to see the clearly anti-semitic nature of this gesture for some reason of their own.




revol68 said:


> Leaving out dolphins, I'd suggest it's human political use has always been anti semitic, chirst it's an inverted seig heil ffs, and that even when your man was flirting with the left, he was always anti semitic albeit he encodes it in anti zionism (like most anti semites these days). Infact it is the centrality of anti semitism to his politics that allows him to flit between left and right so easy.


Precisely.


----------



## redsquirrel (Jan 4, 2014)

DexterTCN said:


> I'm not a french, black, muslim...I wouldn't presume to know what he meant
> 
> Do you know what he meant?


I don't know why I'm bothering as you're clearly a brain dead piece of apologist shit but the ridiculousness of the post of amazing even for you.

In order to try and analyse anyones actions you must be the same nationality, religion and ethnicity as them.  What about the same sex, sexuality, age? What a revolting, fundamentally racist, argument.


----------



## Edie (Jan 4, 2014)

Mouth breathing idiot.


----------



## Lemon Eddy (Jan 4, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> 'I'm very sorry you feel that way'



He could have at least put a bit of effort into his non-apology.  I mean, 12 years ago the new york times went to the trouble of some example templates he could easily have borrowed from:

" I wish to say how very sorry I am if you thought my gesture was anti-semetic.  I am aware that such a meaning, if it had actually been intended, could possibly cause some emotional distress, and would not wish this on anybody even if -- as is the case here, of course -- it cannot be proven beyond a reasonable doubt that I ever said or would say such a thing. If I had, you could interpret this as my apology."


----------



## DexterTCN (Jan 4, 2014)

redsquirrel said:


> I don't know why I'm bothering as you're clearly a brain dead piece of apologist shit but the ridiculousness of the post of amazing even for you.
> 
> In order to try and analyse anyones actions you must be the same nationality, religion and ethnicity as them.  What about the same sex, sexuality, age? What a revolting, fundamentally racist, argument.


So you know what Anelka meant, then?


----------



## brogdale (Jan 4, 2014)

DexterTCN said:


> I'm not a french, black, muslim...I wouldn't presume to know what he meant
> 
> Do you know what he meant?



Poor post.

Whilst it's patenetly obvious that only Anelka himself can actually account for what thought, (or lack of), processes led to that gesture, it is, given his declared friendship, hardly credible to suggest that he was unaware of its significance.

Even if the intent was merely to (secretly?) offend the oppo fans, he was doing with an overtly anti-semitic gesture. His choice; there are many other established ways of expressing "fuck you" to the oppo.

Whilst I don't self identify as "french, black or muslim", I still feel able to express an opinion on this matter.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Jan 4, 2014)

DexterTCN said:


> So you know what Anelka meant, then?



Yes - he meant to show support for his anti-semitic mate.


----------



## goldenecitrone (Jan 4, 2014)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> Yes - he meant to show support for his anti-semitic mate.



Just support for his mate, or support for his mate's anti-semitism?


----------



## brogdale (Jan 4, 2014)

goldenecitrone said:


> Just support for his mate, or support for his mate's anti-semitism?



Either way, he chose to use that gesture, in a highly public way, to express it.


----------



## goldenecitrone (Jan 4, 2014)

brogdale said:


> Either way, he chose to use that gesture, in a highly public way, to express it.



He did indeed. I wonder how the FA are getting on with their crash course in modern French culture.


----------



## LiamO (Jan 4, 2014)

xslavearcx said:


> what would happen in terms of FA punishment if he admitted that it was just a fuck you to the fans?



Jack Wilshire got a two-match ban for flipping the finger at opposition fans a few weeks ago (I think).


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Jan 4, 2014)

goldenecitrone said:


> Just support for his mate, or support for his mate's anti-semitism?



Well given that his mate is a leading anti-semite and the gesture is a known anti-semitic gesture generally if not always used in an anti-semitic way then I think we can guess. Though frankly I think your question is pretty irrelevant in the scheme of things, they both amount to the same thing.


----------



## goldenecitrone (Jan 4, 2014)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> Well given that his mate is a leading anti-semite and the gesture is a known anti-semitic gesture generally if not always used in an anti-semitic way then I think we can guess. Though frankly I think your question is pretty irrelevant in the scheme of things, they both amount to the same thing.



I think it's a question the FA will be considering. Difference between a few days' ban and a life ban.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 4, 2014)

Right, few things to deal with. The suggestion that Dieudonne first used the gesture before he had moved to the far-right and openly embraced anti-semitism and it only picked up anti-semitic connotations after the had made that move. Not true. He first used in 2009 when he was heading the anti-semitic party alongside Alain Soral, other NFers and assorted anti-semites. Remember this poster from earlier, the one with Soral on the right, the anti-semite on the left, the clown in the middle and the grasping jew skulking in the background? That's from that 2009 campaign.







The reality is that Dieudonné has been on the far right and engaging in anti-semitism since the early 2000s and has been publicly well known for being and doing so in France since then.

Secondly, the idea that this was just part of a sketch _about _dolphins and so had no anti-semitic content in itself when first used: it's reported that it was part of a sketch about things secretly running the world and that in the clowns worldview it's Jews who secretly run the world how much more obvious do you think the metaphor has to be?

And finally, it was used as fuck you to west ham fans. The most ludicrous of all the explanations - Anelka couldn't care less about the west ham fans, and he would know they have no idea what the gesture meant. It was, as he said, a gesture of solidarity with his anti-semitic mate at the exact same time that his mate was under fierce public attack from high profile politicians and others for his anti-semitism. On top of which, the gesture has no 'fuck you' content as flicking the Vs or something similar would (apart from to Jews of course) so why on earth would he choose to use to to say fuck you to west ham fans.


----------



## LiamO (Jan 4, 2014)

Again, without wanting or attempting to defend Anelka, it is entirely possible that he had no idea this would be a big deal.

There was a storm in Scotland when Gascoigne did this...



Many Celtic fans got themselves into a such a tizzy about it that they spit when they speak his name even now.

1. There is no doubt it this is a Sectarian gesture, designed to wind up/offend Celtic fans

2. There is equally no doubt (in my mind, and I've heard him speak on iot a few times)  that Gascoigne is a village idiot type, who had no real grasp of just what a shit-storm it would cause;  who was set up to do this by home-grown rangers players who should, and did, know better (abut didn't think he would actually be stupid enough to do it).

So gascoigne doing this would have a different meaning - because of his intent and forethought (or lack of it) - to if a homegrown rangers player had done it.

None of the above excuses Anelka's choice.


----------



## redsquirrel (Jan 4, 2014)

DexterTCN said:


> So you know what Anelka meant, then?


Brogdale has nailed it. 

We don't have to have mind reading abilities to look act someones actions and understand them, to assign motivation to them. To argue otherwise is ridiculous, an extreme individualism that is effectively a statement that there is no society, no possible attempt of understanding between human beings.

I don't need to be black, French or muslim to see that a bloke who's mates with an anti-semite, making an gesture which has been repeatedly shown in this thread to be anti-Semitic is, _at best_, a prick who uses racist actions.


----------



## MellySingsDoom (Jan 4, 2014)

goldenecitrone said:


> Just support for his mate, or support for his mate's anti-semitism?



At this point in the matter, I think we can safely say (unless Anelka clearly answers the anti-Semitism charge) it's both.


----------



## DexterTCN (Jan 4, 2014)

MellySingsDoom said:


> At this point in the matter, I think we can safely say (unless Anelka clearly answers the anti-Semitism charge) it's both.


Anelka has explicitly said it was neither racist nor anti-semitic.

"I ask people not to be duped by the media. And of course I am neither anti-Semite nor racist."

Nasri has explicitly stated the same.

"The pose in the picture i posted over 2 months ago symbolises being against the system. Its has absolutely nothing to do with being anti semitic or against jewish people"


----------



## LiamO (Jan 4, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Secondly, the idea that this was just part of a sketch _about _dolphins and so had no anti-semitic content in itself when first used: it's reported that it was part of a sketch about things secretly running the world and that in the clowns worldview it's Jews who secretly run the world how much more obvious do you think the metaphor has to be?




Well in order to judge how _obvious_ a metaphor may be we would first need to know what the metaphor _is_, would we not? My only knowledge of the dolphins thing is what was posted by FNG earlier. It contained no such analysis.

"It's reported"... by who? Now _you_ have apparently done your homework and found the connection. Thank you and thank you for sharing that knowledge. A link or two might be handy for the rest of us to fill in the blanks.


----------



## LiamO (Jan 4, 2014)

redsquirrel said:


> I don't need to be black, French or muslim to see that a bloke who's mates with an anti-semite, making an gesture which has been repeatedly shown _*in this thread*_ to be anti-Semitic is, _at best_, a prick who uses racist actions.



Maybe he should have read this thread first?


----------



## MellySingsDoom (Jan 4, 2014)

DexterTCN said:


> Anelka has explicitly said it was neither racist nor anti-semitic.
> 
> "I ask people not to be duped by the media. And of course I am neither anti-Semite nor racist."
> 
> ...



Seeing as what's come to light over all this, I personally find Anelka's answer a tad disingenuous, in that he continues to count a known anti-Semite amongst his friends - if he is not an anti-Semite himself, wouldn't it be a good idea for him to break links with Dioudonne at this point?.  No one's being "duped" by the media, either - there's no anti-Anelka agenda at play, it's simply a case of him being (correctly, in my view) pulled up for making that gesture.  As for the Nasri quote, I think we can safely say that the "anti-establishment" use of the quenelle has been completely detourned into an anti-Semitic trope, so that's not a good answer from him either.


----------



## LiamO (Jan 4, 2014)

These chaps had some explaining to do too. Fortunately the rangers supporters association was on hand to explain they were doing a 'traditional' 'Red-Hand salute'...







as were these chaps too...




this was maintained til they were betrayed by outraged conservative unionists who insisted that there was no such thing.


e2a I don't think the rangers fans above are Nazi's. I think they were idiots who thought that this was an ideal way to offend their hosts - as is, unfortunately, their wont. But there is equally no doubt that they were delivering Nazi salutes.

The serving soldiers? I suspect they may well be Fash. I have seen no other explanation coming forth.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 4, 2014)

LiamO said:


> Well in order to judge how _obvious_ a metaphor may be we would first need to know what the metaphor _is_, would we not? My only knowledge of the dolphins thing is what was posted by FNG earlier. It contained no such analysis.
> 
> "It's reported"... by who? Now _you_ have apparently done your homework and found the connection. Thank you and thank you for sharing that knowledge. A link or two might be handy for the rest of us to fill in the blanks.


I just told you that the metaphor was mammals/dolphins/jews secretly running the world. It was in the post that you replied to.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 4, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Right, few things to deal with. The suggestion that Dieudonne first used the gesture before he had moved to the far-right



Cars move to the far right when they overtake a traffic jam.

Political views do not "move to the far right."


----------



## xslavearcx (Jan 4, 2014)

LiamO said:


> Again, without wanting or attempting to defend Anelka, it is entirely possible that he had no idea this would be a big deal.
> 
> There was a storm in Scotland when Gascoigne did this...
> 
> ...



Yeah, definately in the case of gasgoine it was just a daft thing he did, and probably was at the behest of players in the dressing room to take the piss out of him a bit, or just as a dare or whatever. I think though with Anelka, coming from the french speaking cultural background, with his friendship with the originator with that, dont really think slack can be cut there which is what you say anyways...


----------



## xslavearcx (Jan 4, 2014)

revol68 said:


> Leaving out dolphins, I'd suggest it's human political use has always been anti semitic, chirst it's an inverted seig heil ffs, and that even when your man was flirting with the left, he was always anti semitic albeit he encodes it in anti zionism (like most anti semites these days). Infact it is the centrality of anti semitism to his politics that allows him to flit between left and right so easy.



Makes you wonder that maybe leftist opposition to the state of isreal ought to adopt a different term other than 'anti-zionism' seeing as it is so loaded now?


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 4, 2014)

SpineyNorman said:


> Can we take your unwillingness to deal with the substance of the post you're replying to here as an admission that you were talking out of your arse and being an idiotic cunt again?



The substance of your post was speculation about why various people might oppose capitalism, and what they might want to put in its place.

I just don't think people's motives are so clearly identifiable, except in practice.  And any kind of revolutionary practice will utterly transform people's motives, aims, and possibilities, so there's little point in speculating about them beforehand.

That's the lesson of history.

Furthermore, although you call yourself an anti-capitalist, you readily admit that you'd choose capitalism over a wide variety of alternatives.  That tells me that you do not understand what capitalism is or what it does.

And finally, most probably related to the above, you have absolutely _*NO STRATEGY WHATSOEVER *_for actually bringing capitalism to an end.  Which you must admit is a rather serious deficiency in an anti-capitalist.

And so while I'm most awfully sorry to outrage your decency:


----------



## J Ed (Jan 4, 2014)

Oh I've heard this before, not applied to fascists though. "As soon as the revolution comes they will be liberated from their deeply held discriminatory and bigoted politics through fighting the state!" As proven in 1979 in Iran, Egypt in 2011... Etc

Also does anyone on the left seriously argue that actually existing capitalism is worse than fascism? FFS


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 4, 2014)

I'm a bit confused as to why people are still trying to put positive interpretations on what he did despite his own words on the topic and despite the evidence


----------



## FNG (Jan 4, 2014)

> secondly, the idea that this was just part of a sketch _about _dolphins and so had no anti-semitic content in itself when first used:





LiamO said:


> Well in order to judge how _obvious_ a metaphor may be we would first need to know what the metaphor _is_, would we not? My only knowledge of the dolphins thing is what was posted by FNG earlier. It contained no such analysis.



hang on a minute, i never said this was just some dolphin whimsy


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 4, 2014)

Also its well patronising to say black and Muslim people cant be far right and are just like some innocent little creatures. This is what really annoyed me in Julie Burchill's article when she talked about a fascist street movement in Israel, the JDL just being some 'exuberant Jews' or whatever. As if they couldn't really hold the political opinions they did and couldn't really be far right and worthy of being taken seriously because they're from a group she's chosen to see as a noble savage. It's almost like reverse racism in a way, its saying that because they're from a certain group they must not be fash and if not theyre innocent little creatures who don't and can't mean it because of their ethnicity.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Jan 4, 2014)

goldenecitrone said:


> God does exist, but only in our minds. It is our duty to think God out of existence. Fuck you God!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 4, 2014)

Edie said:


> Absolutely. God's willingness to mend, forgive, lift guilt is without limit. You can't shrink it down because you want to frogwoman, you can't turn it into a Get Out of Jail Free card for those YOU deem worthy of grace. Otherwise God is diminished to human justice writ large.



Well, people are *told* that His mercy and forgiveness are infinite, but to be scrupulously fair, that might just be a cunning plan by the priestly class to win over extra converts with false publicity. 



> Is it uncomfortable to think Hitler and Ian Watkins may be forgiven, that Norwegian summer camp massacres and people who fly planes into tower blocks may be loved? Yes. Of course it is!
> 
> But would you prefer the alternative idea?
> 
> ...



I personally prefer the concept of "No G-ds, No Masters", but I don't have an especial aversion to those who practice organised religions.  Most people have a desire to believe in *something*.  For some it's a deity, for others it's politics, for others still it's themselves.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 4, 2014)

DexterTCN said:


> Anelka has explicitly said it was neither racist nor anti-semitic.
> 
> "I ask people not to be duped by the media. And of course I am neither anti-Semite nor racist."
> 
> ...






> Man: Are you a racist?
> 
> Nick Griffin: No we are not, I am not a racist.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 4, 2014)

editor said:


> PS God doesn't actually exist, you know.



He/she/the flying spaghetti monster exists for those that believe.   For most people who have religious faith, that's enough to sustain them.

Although, for those whose belief is invested in a proselytising faith, the belief of believers isn't enough - they feel obliged to win converts too, which is probably at the root of an awful lot of antipathy toward organised religion   Why would any rationalist give credence to a belief system whose lust for new souls has killed so many people in the last 1800 or so years, purely in the name of a G-d?


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 4, 2014)

'I ask people not to be duped by the media' 

Nobody's ever a racist these days, just a victim of the PC lobby. What a pathetic reply.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 4, 2014)

J Ed said:


> Also does anyone on the left seriously argue that actually existing capitalism is worse than fascism? FFS



Anyone on the "Left?"

Ryan Giggs played on the left, we could ask him I suppose.

Personally I'd never argue that, but then I'm a midfielder.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 4, 2014)

Edie said:


> That is SUCH a fucking irritating comment I feel like stomping down to Brixton and having it fucking out with you.
> 
> How the FUCK would YOU know! What, a philosophical question that for millennia humans have wrestled with, the sum total of mans investigation into theology, summarised by a fuckin smug PS! Think on ffs.



TBF, the ed would have been better coming over all Nietzschean, and saying "G-d is dead", instead, because that *is* the case for some people - that G-d is dead to them.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 4, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Also its well patronising to say black and Muslim people cant be far right



It's the way they hog the passing lane I don't like.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 4, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> TBF, the ed would have been better coming over all Nietzschean, and saying "G-d is dead", instead, because that *is* the case for some people - that G-d is dead to them.



There's no proof he or she exists - that's what faith is all about, that you believe he exists, you have faith and you trust that he's there. There's also no proof he doesn't exist.


----------



## Edie (Jan 4, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> TBF, the ed would have been better coming over all Nietzschean, and saying "G-d is dead", instead, because that *is* the case for some people - that G-d is dead to them.


_I don't believe in God, the bastard_


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 4, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> I'm a bit confused as to why people are still trying to put positive interpretations on what he did despite his own words on the topic and despite the evidence



His own words deny the charges against him.

The "evidence" against him consists entirely of symbols, pictures and images.

The belief that politics can be determined by symbols, pictures and images is dangerous, and historically associated with Fascism.


----------



## MellySingsDoom (Jan 4, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> It's the way they hog the passing lane I don't like.



Football passing?  Car lane passing?  Big Black have just the song for you:


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 4, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> 'I ask people not to be duped by the media'
> 
> Nobody's ever a racist these days



Nobody's ever duped by the media these days.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 4, 2014)

'I'm doing this salute in solidarity with diCanio with his accusations of fascism and it's nothing to di with Nazism, I'm reaching up to the sky'


----------



## Wilf (Jan 4, 2014)

goldenecitrone said:


> He did indeed. I wonder how the FA are getting on with their crash course in modern French culture.


Took them a while to get to grips with Uruguayan cultural niceties.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 4, 2014)

Edie said:


> _I don't believe in God, the bastard_



'God doesn't exist. Fuck you, God '


----------



## LiamO (Jan 4, 2014)

FNG said:


> hang on a minute, i never said this was just some dolphin whimsy



I never said you did mate.

I just pointed out that the metaphor outlined above by BA was new to me.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 4, 2014)

Edie said:


> _I don't believe in God, the bastard_



I've been told I am reading it wrong but I thought Nietzches declamation of the death of god refered to the death of non materialism in human beings.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 4, 2014)

xslavearcx said:


> maybe leftist opposition to the state of isreal ought to adopt a different term other than 'anti-zionism' seeing as it is so loaded now?



Or maybe anti-Zionist opposition to the state of Israel ought to adopt a different term from "Leftist," seeing as how nobody knows what it means any more?


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 4, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Nobody's ever duped by the media these days.



That's probably true actually


----------



## J Ed (Jan 4, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> That's probably true actually



People think they aren't, which makes it just as bad I think. Maybe worse.


----------



## J Ed (Jan 4, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> His own words deny the charges against him.
> 
> The "evidence" against him consists entirely of symbols, pictures and images.
> 
> The belief that politics can be determined by symbols, pictures and images is dangerous, and historically associated with Fascism.



Cool, no one on earth is a fascist then except those who explicitly say that they are in the media. Why are you so fucking dense


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 4, 2014)

J Ed said:


> People think they aren't, which makes it just as bad I think. Maybe worse.



No, some people think they aren't but everyone else is (not mentioning any names)


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 4, 2014)

Pity, we could have had a decent and much needed discussion of the growth of influence of third-position fascism across europe - esp in Italy and France, the cultural front approach it's key proponents have consciously adopted, how it fed off simple anti-americanism post-911, how it's increasingly integrated organisationally with the official far-right and is providing much of the base for the latters electoral succcess, how it appeals to the young (though not just the young - witness Alain Delon's now open far-right politics, and Depardieu's calling himself a Communist then leaving France for Putin's Russia spouting far-right nonsense as he goes), how it helps undermine and colonise (physically and intellectually) anti-austerity or anti-capitalist  movements, bit of historical comparisons with periods in which it last found widespread influence (chaotic weimar germany) and what happened to that influence and why. That sort of thing.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 4, 2014)

J Ed said:


> Cool, no one on earth is a fascist then except those who explicitly say that they are in the media. Why are you so fucking dense



Why do you make up ridiculous statements and imply that they come from me?


----------



## J Ed (Jan 4, 2014)

The real fascists are the ones who identify fascists as fascists


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 4, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Pity, we could have had a decent and much needed discussion



But now we can't.

Cos I'm here.

No, don't apologize, I know that's what you meant.

Well in that case I'll go somewhere my wisdom is properly appreciated.  Your round Pickman's.


----------



## Edie (Jan 4, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> I've been told I am reading it wrong but I thought Nietzhes declamation of the death of god refered to the death of materialism in human beings.


I've never read Nietzhe.

Also, this stuff about God existing if people believe in him is a load of rubbish. God either exists or he doesn't. His existence can hardly be dependant on human belief


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 4, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Pity, we could have had a decent and much needed discussion of the growth of influence of third-position fascism across europe - esp in Italy and France, the cultural front approach it's key proponents have consciously adopted, how it fed off simple anti-americanism post-911, how it's increasingly integrated organisationally with the official far-right and is providing much of the base for the latters electoral succcess, how it appeals to the young (though not just the young - witness Alain Delon's now open far-right politics, and Depardieu's calling himself a Communist then leaving France for Putin's Russia spouting far-right nonsense as he goes), how it helps undermine and colonise (physically and intellectually) anti-austerity or anti-capitalist  movements, bit of historical comparisons with periods in which it last found widespread influence (chaotic weimar germany) and what happened to that influence and why. That sort of thing.



well throw a bone- I know v little of european politics but I do keep something of an eye. This one- how would FN compare and contrast with UKIP, both in terms of electoral clout and message? It was a weird question that ambushed me at 3 am a few weeks ago. Electoral clout is one thing I know to say they are noway near FN. Policies and links to new rightist..well I don't know


----------



## Limerick Red (Jan 4, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> His own words deny the charges against him.
> 
> The "evidence" against him consists entirely of symbols, pictures and images.
> 
> The belief that politics can be determined by symbols, pictures and images is dangerous, and historically associated with Fascism.


Mr Marjoram of the British National Party said yesterday: ‘To have all this fuss over a golliwog is a travesty.’


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 4, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Pity, we could have had a decent and much needed discussion of the growth of influence of third-position fascism across europe - esp in Italy and France, the cultural front approach it's key proponents have consciously adopted, how it fed off simple anti-americanism post-911, how it's increasingly integrated organisationally with the official far-right and is providing much of the base for the latters electoral succcess, how it appeals to the young (though not just the young - witness Alain Delon's now open far-right politics, and Depardieu's calling himself a Communist then leaving France for Putin's Russia spouting far-right nonsense as he goes), how it helps undermine and colonise (physically and intellectually) anti-austerity or anti-capitalist  movements, bit of historical comparisons with periods in which it last found widespread influence (chaotic weimar germany) and what happened to that influence and why. That sort of thing.



New thread?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 4, 2014)

Edie said:


> butchers is astonishingly clever but he can be a *right* cunt if you won't agree with him.



I'm not sure that's true.  What he tends to get irate at is shite arguments.  I've never seen him have a go at someone purely for not agreeing with him, but I've seen plenty of instances where someone makes a crap "common-sense" argument, and he then tears them a new one.  Some people take terrible offence when they get called on a bad argument and their own daftness gets highlighted to themselves and the rest of the Urban-reading public, other people learn from their mistakes, and tighten up their arguments.



> He doesn't care about upsetting people to make a point which I despise sometimes. And leads to a lot of people kissing his arse. I dislike that more tbh. He's infuriatingly right often though, specially if you read shit back a while after, but fuck me at the time it can be like fighting a cryptic crossword with a hate grudge.



 
But is it worth it, in the end, if you come out the other end with a better grasp of your own argument, and of other peoples' arguments?  Me, I'd say it is, and that a lot of offence-taking by posters is ego-driven - if something is worth knowing, then the fact that you feel the person giving you the knowledge is an abrasive git is secondary to the knowledge gained.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 4, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> I'm not sure that's true.  What he tends to get irate at is shite arguments.  I've never seen him have a go at someone purely for not agreeing with him, but I've seen plenty of instances where someone makes a crap "common-sense" argument, and he then tears them a new one.  Some people take terrible offence when they get called on a bad argument and their own daftness gets highlighted to themselves and the rest of the Urban-reading public, other people learn from their mistakes, and tighten up their arguments.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yep, I disagree with butchers on a few things I'm sure but that's pretty much what I think, he's sound as fuck IMO. I've learnt a shitload from him, you and other 'aggressive' posters and let's face it we often have a reason for being aggressive on here.


----------



## Wilf (Jan 4, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Also its well patronising to say black and Muslim people cant be far right and are just like some innocent little creatures. .


 Again, that nails it. 'Forgive them Football Association, they know not what they do'.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 4, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> But is it worth it, in the end, if you come out the other end with a better grasp of your own argument, and of other peoples' arguments?  Me, I'd say it is, and that a lot of offence-taking by posters is ego-driven - if something is worth knowing, then the fact that you feel the person giving you the knowledge is an abrasive git is secondary to the knowledge gained.




on the matter of internet arguments I was told 'always know and have references for your argument before you engage that way you cannot lose'

but you can. Some bastards always got a contention, a mum cuss or has read something you have not.


----------



## Wilf (Jan 4, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Pity, we could have had a decent and much needed discussion of the growth of influence of third-position fascism across europe - esp in Italy and France, the cultural front approach it's key proponents have consciously adopted, how it fed off simple anti-americanism post-911, how it's increasingly integrated organisationally with the official far-right and is providing much of the base for the latters electoral succcess, how it appeals to the young (though not just the young - witness Alain Delon's now open far-right politics, and Depardieu's calling himself a Communist then leaving France for Putin's Russia spouting far-right nonsense as he goes), how it helps undermine and colonise (physically and intellectually) anti-austerity or anti-capitalist  movements, bit of historical comparisons with periods in which it last found widespread influence (chaotic weimar germany) and what happened to that influence and why. That sort of thing.


Excellent post.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 4, 2014)

DexterTCN said:


> Anelka has explicitly said it was neither racist nor anti-semitic.
> 
> "I ask people not to be duped by the media. And of course I am neither anti-Semite nor racist."
> 
> ...



Are their claims tenable, though?
Just because someone claims something, doesn't automatically make it so.


----------



## Wilf (Jan 4, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Are their claims tenable, though?
> Just because someone claims something, doesn't automatically make it so.


Particularly Nasri's has a corporate speak that suggests his management wrote it. Pure damage limitation.


----------



## LiamO (Jan 4, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Pity, we could have had a decent and much needed discussion of the growth of influence of third-position fascism across europe - esp in Italy and France, the cultural front approach it's key proponents have consciously adopted, how it fed off simple anti-americanism post-911, how it's increasingly integrated organisationally with the official far-right and is providing much of the base for the latters electoral succcess, how it appeals to the young (though not just the young - witness Alain Delon's now open far-right politics, and Depardieu's calling himself a Communist then leaving France for Putin's Russia spouting far-right nonsense as he goes), how it helps undermine and colonise (physically and intellectually) anti-austerity or anti-capitalist  movements, bit of historical comparisons with periods in which it last found widespread influence (chaotic weimar germany) and what happened to that influence and why. That sort of thing.



so start one then.

I just spotted your little blue "here" on page 2 or 3 which led me to the thread about the kid killed in Paris by yer man Batskin's mob.

This was _really_ significant, but I didn't spot it and afaik you chose not to respond to me question 'who the fuck is batskin whwen he is at home'. Why could you not just post a proper (as in big, too big to miss) link instead of that? That would have been really helpful.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 4, 2014)

Started a new thread in world politics if anyone's interested.


----------



## LiamO (Jan 4, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Are their claims tenable, though?
> Just because someone claims something, doesn't automatically make it so.



Just brings us back to intent doesn't it?

I don't know what french society/culture is like but it is a bit daft to try to impose what something means to me and mine onto other people without looking at what it might mean to them.

For example, in the 80's somebody using the 'N'-word who was from some wee, white, northern town - with hardly any black people and where it was in common usage and not deemed particularly offensive - was completely different to someone who lived in London.

Likewise, someone in London who chose to use the word schwartzer (sp?) had _no_ wriggle room whatsoever.

On that Blood & Honour 'Main Event' thing special/extra beatings were dished out to Germans. Not because anybody was anti-German but because it was reasonably considered that although some english kid from the sticks could be wearing Nazi gear as a (still slappable) fasnion/identity statement, a German wearing Nazi gear could have no such excuses/wriggle room.

Only a couple of years ago a good number of rural, conservative, unionist public representatives had to have it explained to them that the term 'darkies' was offensive. I don't think any UKIP rep would use that term without knowing they are going to be pulled on it.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 4, 2014)

Edie said:


> I've never read Nietzhe.
> 
> Also, this stuff about God existing if people believe in him is a load of rubbish. God either exists or he doesn't. His existence can hardly be dependant on human belief



And yet without human belief that G-d is something more than a label for a set of events attributed to a mysterious supernatural power, G-d *doesn't* exist.  All that exists are events and occurrences that might be attributed to G-d (or to natural phenomena).  If you believe in your G-d and in their power to, say, make Sodom and Gomorrah fall into utter destruction, then you make your G-d real *to you* - your G-d exists for you through their acts and their actions.
You shouldn't have mentioned theology, Edie!


----------



## LiamO (Jan 4, 2014)

I remember a few years ago on a Site in Dublin, there was a bit of Dub Vs Culchie slagging going on which both amused and perlexed the poles.

One of the lads asked the Poles who they told jokes about. Now they were from all over Poland (Urban and rural) but they all looked at each other, nodded and said matter-of-factly 'Jews'. I asked for an example and after some discussion in Polish one of them proffered a complete toe-curler which caused other jaws to drop - whilst the Poles all burst their shite laughing.

Now none of these fellas had ever said anything racist in my hearing. They were all philosophical about what the Russians and Germans had done to Poland- "it's the system, not the people" was their usual shrugged reply. But, they came from a society where it was perfectly acceptable (although a little bit 'ooh-err Missus) socially to tell jokes about the holocaust and the death camps and seemed non-plussed at  how these 'jokes' might be perceived by others.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 4, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> on the matter of internet arguments I was told 'always know and have references for your argument before you engage that way you cannot lose'
> 
> but you can. Some bastards always got a contention, a mum cuss or has read something you have not.



See, the "win" or "lose" thing is secondary, for me, to learning.
Even learning a new mum cuss (if such a thing exists!).


----------



## Edie (Jan 4, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> And yet without human belief that G-d is something more than a label for a set of events attributed to a mysterious supernatural power, G-d *doesn't* exist.  All that exists are events and occurrences that might be attributed to G-d (or to natural phenomena).  If you believe in your G-d and in their power to, say, make Sodom and Gomorrah fall into utter destruction, then you make your G-d real *to you* - your G-d exists for you through their acts and their actions.
> You shouldn't have mentioned theology, Edie!


Don't understand this. It's obviously possible for God to exist independent of human belief. It's also possible God exists and does not intervene in human affairs at all.


----------



## manny-p (Jan 4, 2014)

LiamO said:


> so start one then.
> 
> I just spotted your little blue "here" on page 2 or 3 which led me to the thread about the kid killed in Paris by yer man Batskin's mob.
> 
> This was _really_ significant, but I didn't spot it and afaik you chose not to respond to me question 'who the fuck is batskin whwen he is at home'. Why could you not just post a proper (as in big, too big to miss) link instead of that? That would have been really helpful.


I responded to that Liam and told you what scum he was.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 4, 2014)

Wilf said:


> Particularly Nasri's has a corporate speak that suggests his management wrote it. Pure damage limitation.



A lot of that shit *is* pure formula used by businesses to make non-apologies* presented as apologies.

*The sort of "apology" with small print that says "this apology in no way implies that the issuer takes any responsibility for what is being apologised for".


----------



## LiamO (Jan 4, 2014)

manny-p said:


> I responded to that Liam and told you what scum he was.



I know you did and I acknowledged you for doing so by immediately 'liking' your post.

My point was that BA's posts are (too often IMO) _implicit_ when it would be more helpful if they were _explicit_.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 4, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> A lot of that shit *is* pure formula used by businesses to make non-apologies* presented as apologies.
> 
> *The sort of "apology" with small print that says "this apology in no way implies that the issuer takes any responsibility for what is being apologised for".


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 4, 2014)

LiamO said:


> I remember a few years ago on a Site in Dublin, there was a bit of Dub Vs Culchie slagging going on which both amused and perlexed the poles.
> 
> One of the lads asked the Poles who they told jokes about. Now they were from all over Poland (Urban and rural) but they all looked at each other, nodded and said matter-of-factly 'Jews'. I asked for an example and after some discussion in Polish one of them proffered a complete toe-curler which caused other jaws to drop - whilst the Poles all burst their shite laughing.
> 
> Now none of these fellas had ever said anything racist in my hearing. They were all philosophical about what the Russians and Germans had done to Poland- "it's the system, not the people" was their usual shrugged reply. But, they came from a society where it was perfectly acceptable (although a little bit 'ooh-err Missus) socially to tell jokes about the holocaust and the death camps and seemed non-plussed at  how these 'jokes' might be perceived by others.



Have you not seen _Shoah _then?

Many old Poles, interviewed about the war, make comments along the lines of: "well of course we had reservations about the Nazis, but maybe they weren't all bad--after all, they _did _get rid of the Jews..."


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 4, 2014)

Edie said:


> Don't understand this. It's obviously possible for God to exist independent of human belief



It's not "obviously possible" to me, because I don't believe that "In the beginning was the Word".  I believe that in the beginning was the fusion of cometary and planetary material that combined into what became "the earth", and that G-d is an artefact of the human need to believe in external agency/something "bigger" than we are.
And, of course, to believe in something on which we can lay off responsibility for our own faults, mistakes and crimes (which is a very "human" thing to do).



> It's also possible God exists and does not intervene in human affairs at all.



It may be the case, but why, unless you're a cosmic sadist who gets off on watching millennia of person killing person?
I might accept the idea of a non-interventionist G-d *if* so many priests and believers didn't claim that their G-d has so often broken the "non-intervention" clause to allow miracles to occur; to guide the chosen people; to place a divine agent in human form, etc etc etc.

This is why I say that G-d exists (or *any* G-d exists) for those that believe - because the only way your G-d can exist alongside the contradictions between what scripture states and what is claimed, is through the belief of the faithful - through the unquestioning devotion of the believer.


----------



## DexterTCN (Jan 4, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Are their claims tenable, though?
> Just because someone claims something, doesn't automatically make it so.


Well...some on this thread have called me an anti-semite and a racist.

Trouble is, I'm not.  The burden of proof for such claims is very low here.   You can call anyone anything pretty much with nothing but a few twisted words.

So when the claims are flying around...how much weight would a reasonable person give them?   As you said, just because someone claims something...


----------



## LiamO (Jan 4, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Have you not seen _Shoah _then?



Nope. Direct me to it.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 4, 2014)

Right Edie since you asked about what i believe, I have no idea in all honesty whether God exists or not, there's no proof that he does or doesn't. I have had experiences I can't explain though. I think he probably does exist to be honest, there was a time in my life when I was seriously on the point of killing myself and I think that God stopped me doing it. I distinctly heard something telling me not to do it and I've never had anything like that before or since, I've had mental health problems but I don't hear voices or anything like that. In terms of what doctrines of religious theology, no fucking idea. I don't really think we are a 'chosen people' or anything like that and got no idea about heaven, hell, purgatory, reincarnation etc, I hope there is something when I die but there may not be, I think we should live like there is only one life and make the most of it. I know what I don't believe tho lol.

I don't think God is entirely good because he wasn't there when I needed him the most and for years after that I stopped believing completely. Got back into it again but not in the same way, a big reason why I do the stuff is because people died so I could do it and observing the stuff means I am honouring them. I know that sounds a bit morbid like. Another reason is because I find it comforting and I feel like it gives my life a bit of a structure and I need that, I also see doing a lot of the stuff as a challenge for example with eating etc and its helped me give a shit about eating healthily in general. All these reasons might sound a bit weird and to be honest I'm really not entirely sure about any of it, I try and be a good person and not be a cunt and that's all anyone can really do.


----------



## Edie (Jan 4, 2014)

ViolentPanda if you don't mind me saying, I thought you were Jewish (by belief I mean, not just culturally). It seems a bit strange for someone who doesn't believe in God to superstitiously miss out the o in G-d?

I thought, maybe he's doing that because Jews aren't allowed to say or type the word God and it might offend them to even _read_ the word God. But that's not the case for froggy?

Do you mind me asking why you do it? (I fear this may be very personal so apologies if it is!)


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jan 4, 2014)

A God thread maybe? With poll? Might be interesting, if not a thread that contains the seeds of it's own bun fight.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 4, 2014)

its not the reading its the potential for destruction. The Word, the unknowable and unsayable name etc.


----------



## Edie (Jan 4, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Right Edie since you asked about what i believe, I have no idea in all honesty whether God exists or not, there's no proof that he does or doesn't. I have had experiences I can't explain though. I think he probably does exist to be honest, there was a time in my life when I was seriously on the point of killing myself and I think that God stopped me doing it. I distinctly heard something telling me not to do it and I've never had anything like that before or since, I've had mental health problems but I don't hear voices or anything like that. In terms of what doctrines of religious theology, no fucking idea. I don't really think we are a 'chosen people' or anything like that and got no idea about heaven, hell, purgatory, reincarnation etc, I hope there is something when I die but there may not be, I think we should live like there is only one life and make the most of it. I know what I don't believe tho lol.
> 
> I don't think God is entirely good because he wasn't there when I needed him the most and for years after that I stopped believing completely. Got back into it again but not in the same way, a big reason why I do the stuff is because people died so I could do it and observing the stuff means I am honouring them. I know that sounds a bit morbid like. Another reason is because I find it comforting and I feel like it gives my life a bit of a structure and I need that, I also see doing a lot of the stuff as a challenge for example with eating etc and its helped me give a shit about eating healthily in general. All these reasons might sound a bit weird and to be honest I'm really not entirely sure about any of it, I try and be a good person and not be a cunt and that's all anyone can really do.


Surely you can't just form a belief about God, and what kind of God He is (ie 'not entirely good), just based on your own personal experiences though?


----------



## Edie (Jan 4, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> its not the reading its the potential for destruction. The Word, the unknowable and unsayable name etc.


Like Voldemort?

But that means VP does actually believe in G-d (the bastard etc).


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jan 4, 2014)

God thread created.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 4, 2014)

Edie said:


> ViolentPanda if you don't mind me saying, I thought you were Jewish (by belief I mean, not just culturally). It seems a bit strange for someone who doesn't believe in God to superstitiously miss out the o in G-d?
> 
> I thought, maybe he's doing that because Jews aren't allowed to say or type the word God and it might offend them to even _read_ the word God. But that's not the case for froggy?
> 
> Do you mind me asking why you do it? (I fear this may be very personal so apologies if it is!)



I used to do it. The reason I don't do it all the time is just because I'm more laid back about my beliefs these days. The rationale for doing it is because you're not supposed to destroy God's name or write his name on anything that can be destroyed. So that is why if you're writing on a piece of paper and are observant you will write the word G-d rather than god, because if you threw that piece of paper away it would be A Bad Thing. Opinions vary as to whether these rules apply on the internet because the name of God here isn't physical and deleting it doesn't technically count as destroying it as it doesn't exist physically. In leaflets about Judaism even in reform synagogues you will often see the word g-d written as it may be thrown away. In addition the reason that words like G-d came about is because its a prohibition on destroying the Hebrew names of God which are in turn a substitute for the name of God that you are not supposed to say (outside certain times in the temple, which doesn't exist any more).


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 4, 2014)

Edie said:


> Surely you can't just form a belief about God, and what kind of God He is (ie 'not entirely good), just based on your own personal experiences though?



No you can't, but I don't think being angry with God is necessarily bad, its got a very long tradition. Some people have been angry and rejected God for their faith to eventually be strengthened, questioning/being angry with God and his judgements is something that has a long tradition in all religions and should be encouraged.

ETA also, with respect you have no idea what my religious practice and my relationship with God is like now. I was describing some of the difficulties I have with it. I'm not saying this is what he is definitely like.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Jan 4, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> The substance of your post was speculation about why various people might oppose capitalism, and what they might want to put in its place.
> 
> I just don't think people's motives are so clearly identifiable, except in practice.  And any kind of revolutionary practice will utterly transform people's motives, aims, and possibilities, so there's little point in speculating about them beforehand.
> 
> ...



While this is mostly correct I've no idea what it has to do with the thread???


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 4, 2014)

DexterTCN said:


> Well...some on this thread have called me an anti-semite and a racist.
> 
> Trouble is, I'm not.  The burden of proof for such claims is very low here.   You can call anyone anything pretty much with nothing but a few twisted words.
> 
> So when the claims are flying around...how much weight would a reasonable person give them?   As you said, just because someone claims something...



Me, I tend to check and double check, and then weigh the balance of probabilities. For me, the balance of probabilities seem to lie with Anelka being disingenuous about his salute, because he realised what a cunt he'd look.

Unlike the daft cunt* on this thread who reckoned that I'd said that they accused another poster of being a Nazi.  They obviously don't "check and double check".

*That'd be you, post #293, you nugget.


----------



## Edie (Jan 4, 2014)

So VP is doing it out of respect for other Jewish readers? Or just in case God does exist and writing his name is more offensive than denying his existence?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 4, 2014)

Edie said:


> ViolentPanda if you don't mind me saying, I thought you were Jewish (by belief I mean, not just culturally). It seems a bit strange for someone who doesn't believe in God to superstitiously miss out the o in G-d?



I'm not a follower of any part of the Judaic faith.  I'm a non-observant cultural Jew.



> I thought, maybe he's doing that because Jews aren't allowed to say or type the word God and it might offend them to even _read_ the word God. But that's not the case for froggy?



*Some* Jews who have faith ARE offended/upset by reading it. Not all, though.



> Do you mind me asking why you do it? (I fear this may be very personal so apologies if it is!)



I miss the "o" out, out of respect for those who *do* believe in She/He/It, and might feel disturbed seeing She/He/It named, not out of superstition.   It *is* a personal thing, but only insofar as it's a personal *preference* to not offer offence.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 4, 2014)

Edie said:


> So VP is doing it out of respect for other Jewish readers? Or just in case God does exist and writing his name is more offensive than denying his existence?



When this topic came up before his reply was that he was doing it out of respect for others which is as good a reason as any. 'You don't have to believe in God, you just have to do what he says'.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 4, 2014)

Edie said:


> Surely you can't just form a belief about God, and what kind of God He is (ie 'not entirely good), just based on your own personal experiences though?



Isn't that exactly what a lot of "born again" Christians do, though, when they claim to have come to G-d through a personal epiphany?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 4, 2014)

Edie said:


> Like Voldemort?
> 
> But that means VP does actually believe in G-d (the bastard etc).



Nope, I'm very firmly in the "there's no such thing as a deity" camp.  I believe that we're here, we're finite, and that anything to do with "making a difference" has to be done by ourselves, rather than relying on some cosmic beardie to get a shift on and do things for us.  
I don't scorn those who choose to believe (unlike some posters, I'm not a militant atheist), but I reserve the right not to be compelled to share their beliefs, too.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 4, 2014)

Edie said:


> So VP is doing it out of respect for other Jewish readers? Or just in case God does exist and writing his name is more offensive than denying his existence?



If She/He/It exists, they're welcome to punish me for transgressing their writ, and won't I look foolish!


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 4, 2014)

I also don't think you can judge people who lost their faith because of devastating experiences or because of what they had experienced flying in the face of the idea of a loving God and therefore deciding whether God existed, was good etc based on that. Under some circumstances I'd say it was a completely natural reaction to have.


----------



## Casually Red (Jan 4, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> but I reserve the right not to be compelled to share their beliefs, too.




yes, because thats likely to happen on Urban, or to a grown adult  in general


----------



## cesare (Jan 4, 2014)

LiamO said:


> so start one then.
> 
> I just spotted your little blue "here" on page 2 or 3 which led me to the thread about the kid killed in Paris by yer man Batskin's mob.
> 
> This was _really_ significant, but I didn't spot it and afaik you chose not to respond to me question 'who the fuck is batskin whwen he is at home'. Why could you not just post a proper (as in big, too big to miss) link instead of that? That would have been really helpful.


It's not his fault you missed it.


----------



## Edie (Jan 4, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Isn't that exactly what a lot of "born again" Christians do, though, when they claim to have come to G-d through a personal epiphany?


Yes! I'm currently having a problem with it.


----------



## Edie (Jan 4, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> If She/He/It exists, they're welcome to punish me for transgressing their writ, and won't I look foolish!


I'm asking you why you do it?


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 4, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> I'm a non-observant cultural Jew.



What does that mean?

Is your family Jewish?


----------



## Edie (Jan 4, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> What does that mean?
> 
> Is your family Jewish?


Of course his family is Jewish.


----------



## FNG (Jan 4, 2014)

jew sniffing again phil?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 4, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> What does that mean?



it means I don't go to synagogue, to listen to someone recount lore to me, because I'm not a "believer".  I'm not into pretending to be something I'm not just to fulfil a social obligation.
I do, however, identify with the cultural history of European Jewry - with our secular history and achievements, our art and scholarship.
I'm sure your good friend rachamim, who also claimed to be a non-observant secular Jew (among other things), has explained this stuff to you?


> Is your family Jewish?



My mother is a non-observant Jew, as are my younger siblings. My grandmother and her mother were mildly-observant (equivalent to "births, wddings and funerals" Christians, but with added bacon-revilement).  My older brother is a church-going Anglican and my father is a militant atheist on account of his own mother having been a "bible-thumper".


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 4, 2014)

FNG said:


> jew sniffing again phil?



He's the Heeb-sniffer Pursuivant.
Just remember: Whatever you think you know, phil knows better, mmkay?


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 4, 2014)

My dad's family is completely non observant apart from my grandad and and some of their distant relatives. Fuck knows where I got it from


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 4, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> My dad's family is completely non observant apart from my grandad and and some of their distant relatives. Fuck knows where I got it from



Like I've said, everyone needs to believe in something, whether it's themselves, a deity or a cause, or any combination of the above.  There's nothing wrong with doing so, until and unless it becomes pathological.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 4, 2014)

Judeo-bolshevism


----------



## Greebo (Jan 4, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> My dad's family is completely non observant apart from my grandad and and some of their distant relatives. Fuck knows where I got it from


Some things skip a generation or two.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 4, 2014)

Edie said:


> Of course his family is Jewish.



I think not.


----------



## J Ed (Jan 4, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> I think not.



So you have the authority to decide not only who is a fascist and who isn't but who is and isn't Jewish?


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 4, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> My grandmother and her mother were mildly-observant



Where?


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 4, 2014)

J Ed said:


> So you have the authority to decide not only who is a fascist and who isn't but who is and isn't Jewish?



Are you conducting this interrogation now?


----------



## Casually Red (Jan 4, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Where?



at the fucking Ancient Order of Hibernians social club . Where do you think ?


----------



## Frances Lengel (Jan 4, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> aint nothing wrong with Morning Has Broken as a tune.
> 
> Cat Stevens/Yussef Islam does this minted version:






Guy _invented_ electro. Cat Stevens of all people - He made it _all_ possible.


----------



## J Ed (Jan 4, 2014)

So a bloke can say I'm not an anti-semite and we have to take their word for it despite anti-semitic behaviour otherwise we are acting like fascists but it's alright to analyse someone's ancestry to determine whether they are Jewish since you can't just take their word for it.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 4, 2014)

Casually Red said:


> at the fucking Ancient Order of Hibernians social club . Where do you think ?



I think you're right.


----------



## Casually Red (Jan 4, 2014)

Frances Lengel said:


> Guy _invented_ electro. Cat Stevens of all people - He made it _all_ possible.





whats electro ? Is it that rave shit ?

was that his fault ?


----------



## cesare (Jan 4, 2014)

J Ed said:


> So a bloke can say I'm not an anti-semite and we have to take their word for it despite anti-semitic behaviour otherwise we are acting like fascists but it's alright to analyse someone's ancestry to determine whether they are Jewish since you can't just take their word for it.


We need to identify the "proper" Jews now there's no such thing as the far right, and the fucking far left has been closed. Obv.


----------



## Edie (Jan 4, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Where?





phildwyer said:


> Are you conducting this interrogation now?


Phil, no, you mustn't do that. Stop. It's rude and fucking offensive.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 4, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Where?



At the synagogue, and at home.


----------



## savoloysam (Jan 4, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Right Edie since you asked about what i believe, I have no idea in all honesty whether God exists or not, there's no proof that he does or doesn't. I have had experiences I can't explain though. I think he probably does exist to be honest, there was a time in my life when I was seriously on the point of killing myself and I think that God stopped me doing it. I distinctly heard something telling me not to do it and I've never had anything like that before or since, I've had mental health problems but I don't hear voices or anything like that. In terms of what doctrines of religious theology, no fucking idea. I don't really think we are a 'chosen people' or anything like that and got no idea about heaven, hell, purgatory, reincarnation etc, I hope there is something when I die but there may not be, I think we should live like there is only one life and make the most of it. I know what I don't believe tho lol.
> 
> I don't think God is entirely good because he wasn't there when I needed him the most and for years after that I stopped believing completely. Got back into it again but not in the same way, a big reason why I do the stuff is because people died so I could do it and observing the stuff means I am honouring them. I know that sounds a bit morbid like. Another reason is because I find it comforting and I feel like it gives my life a bit of a structure and I need that, I also see doing a lot of the stuff as a challenge for example with eating etc and its helped me give a shit about eating healthily in general. All these reasons might sound a bit weird and to be honest I'm really not entirely sure about any of it, I try and be a good person and not be a cunt and that's all anyone can really do.



That's something was your powerful inner voice. Not some weird God. Amazing what your mind can do you for you when you need it the most.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 4, 2014)

Casually Red said:


> at the fucking Ancient Order of Hibernians social club . Where do you think ?



He can't help it.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 4, 2014)

Edie said:


> Phil, no, you mustn't do that. Stop. It's rude and fucking offensive.



He's not Jewish Edie.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 4, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> At the synagogue, and at home.



Which country?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 4, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> I think you're right.



Nah, you really *don't* think *at all*, phil.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Jan 4, 2014)

Casually Red said:


> whats electro ? Is it that rave shit ?
> 
> was that his fault ?



This kind of thing - Essentially proto-hip hop.


So yeah, it was _all_ his fault. If fault's the way you want to look at it. Me, I see it as a gift from an unlikely source.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 4, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> He's not Jewish Edie.



Because *you* say so?

Oh dear.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 4, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Because *you* say so?
> 
> Oh dear.



You know what?

Have it your way.  Who am I to deny you your fun?  _Shalom!_


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 4, 2014)

Edie said:


> Phil, no, you mustn't do that. Stop. It's rude and fucking offensive.



Not to phil, because he believes that I'm not a Jew.

He's a bit special like that.


----------



## Casually Red (Jan 4, 2014)

Frances Lengel said:


> This kind of thing - Essentially proto-hip hop.




right...Ill just about let that ago . Mebbe . Need to think about it .


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Jan 4, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Judeo-bolshevism



The Jewish Bund


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 4, 2014)

Don't think anyone has the right to decide who is and isn't a Jew tbh based on discussions on the internet. 



savoloysam said:


> That's something was your powerful inner voice. Not some weird God. Amazing what your mind can do you for you when you need it the most.



Quite possibly. People have said that to me before, I don't talk about it very much though because I wouldn't want anyone thinking I was delusional.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 4, 2014)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> The Jewish Bund



Yeah they were a mazing. Although some of them were a bit too sympathetic to stalinism tbf. I'd definitely see myself as being influenced by that tradition though


----------



## Casually Red (Jan 4, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Not to phil, because he believes that I'm not a Jew.
> 
> He's a bit special like that.




why would you need to tell porkies about being a jew ? Thats mad . 

Its not like youre a jeweller or something and want to put on a front . Hes a crazy man .


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 4, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> You know what?
> 
> Have it your way.  Who am I to deny you your fun?  _Shalom!_



No, come on, reveal your source. Otherwise you just look like a daft bugger who chats shite.

Again.


----------



## xslavearcx (Jan 4, 2014)

this books is amazing btw

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Jew-Boy-Simon-Blumenfeld/dp/0956815510


----------



## Frances Lengel (Jan 4, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> You know what?
> 
> Have it your way.  Who am I to deny you your fun?  _Shalom!_



I don't fully understand the reasons behind you and VP's mutual dislike of each other but why are you saying he's not Jewish? Why's he going to lie about it? If there's one thing that annoys me about urban it's unfounded accusations of lying - Don't sink to that level. That's what I think anyway.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 4, 2014)

Casually Red said:


> why would you need to tell porkies about being a jew ? Thats mad .



It's certainly odd.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 4, 2014)

Casually Red said:


> why would you need to tell porkies about being a jew ? Thats mad .
> 
> *Its not like youre a jeweller or something* and want to put on a front . Hes a crazy man .



Although I do occasionally have a diamond-cutter.


----------



## Casually Red (Jan 4, 2014)

thats too odd to be believable . I cannot suspend my disbelief sufficietly to take it as a serious prospect . One of you does not strike me as a complete nutter .


----------



## Frances Lengel (Jan 4, 2014)

Casually Red said:


> right...Ill just about let that ago . Mebbe . Need to think about it .



Have a look at this as well if you can be arsed - Imagine New York in them days. It must've been _great._


----------



## Frances Lengel (Jan 4, 2014)

Casually Red said:


> why would you need to tell *porkies* about being a *jew *? Thats mad .
> 
> Its not like youre a jeweller or something and want to put on a front . Hes a crazy man .



I see what you did there


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 4, 2014)

Saul Goodman in breaking bad pretended to be Jewish 

http://breakingbad.wikia.com/wiki/Saul_Goodman


----------



## J Ed (Jan 4, 2014)

_The Jew thing I just do for the homeboys

_
...I'm excited for the spinoff


----------



## Casually Red (Jan 4, 2014)

Frances Lengel said:


> This kind of thing - Essentially proto-hip hop.
> 
> 
> So yeah, it was _all_ his fault. If fault's the way you want to look at it. Me, I see it as a gift from an unlikely source.




why did the soul sonic crew change their name to soul sonic force ?


----------



## LiamO (Jan 4, 2014)

Casually Red said:


> why did the soul sonic crew change their name to soul sonic force ?



so The Force would be with them?


----------



## FNG (Jan 4, 2014)

Frances Lengel said:


> This kind of thing - Essentially proto-hip hop.
> 
> 
> So yeah, it was _all_ his fault. If fault's the way you want to look at it. Me, I see it as a gift from an unlikely source.





Frances i hate to spoil our beautiful freiendship, But Bam IS hip-hop, brought about the gang truce that created the Universal Zulu Nation, Inventor of the 5 elements


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 4, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> It's certainly odd.



I used to tell people I was when I was still converting because I didn't want to have the conversation with them about why I had decided to do it, it was just easier. But I genuinely don't understand how you know for sure he isn't, I mean loads of Jewish families know very little if anything about the religion at all and when I was converting was always my mum who went with me to stuff despite not being a Jew and thinking it was all bollocks, my dad won't really have anything to do with it.


----------



## cantsin (Jan 4, 2014)

FNG said:


> Frances i hate to spoil our beautiful freiendship, But Bam IS hip-hop, brought about the gang truce that created the Universal Zulu Nation, Inventor of the 5 elements



Planet Rock was the electro mothership to some degree ( after Cyberton)  whatever Bambatta's influence on hip hop -b though electro and hip hop were inextricably linked at that stage...weird that electro of that sort died out so quickly, considering how good some of it was.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Jan 4, 2014)

FNG said:


> Frances i hate to spoil our beautiful freiendship, But Bam IS hip-hop, brought about the gang truce that created the Universal Zulu Nation, Inventor of the 5 elements



I know mate, what you've said needn't be a barrier to our already beautiful friendship and (dare I say with baited breath) our burgeoning relationship. I knew Afrikaa Bamaata along with Kool Herc more or less invented hip hop and I knew about Zulu Nation and that - I just wanted to show CR something that was a bit electro and try to explain to him what I was on about. Cheers though.


----------



## Casually Red (Jan 4, 2014)

I for one am glad Demi Roussos had no truck with any of that stuff .


----------



## Frances Lengel (Jan 4, 2014)

Casually Red said:


> I for one am glad Demi Roussos had no truck with any of that stuff .


----------



## Casually Red (Jan 4, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Although I do occasionally have a diamond-cutter.




so did _Daniel_ by the sounds of it

http://trueslant.com/nealungerleide...d-for-pretending-to-be-jewish-for-casual-sex/


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 4, 2014)

"He doesn't sound it though does he...?"


----------



## Casually Red (Jan 4, 2014)

Frances Lengel said:


>





ive those moves down to a T


----------



## Frances Lengel (Jan 4, 2014)

Casually Red said:


> ive those moves down to a T



Doesn't surprise me. Everyone knows the Irish have natural rhythm.


----------



## redsquirrel (Jan 4, 2014)

LiamO said:


> Maybe he should have read this thread first?


Are you really trying to say Anelka was completely ignorant of the background of this gesture? Why? It's been shown over and over again that such a claim simply does not stand up.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 4, 2014)

Casually Red said:


> I for one am glad Demi Roussos had no truck with any of that stuff .



Needed a truck for his kaftans, though.


----------



## Casually Red (Jan 4, 2014)

more like a light van, but we wont quibble . Hes a fine figure of a man . And the important thing is he doesnt sound fat .


----------



## Casually Red (Jan 4, 2014)

I just forgot, Demis has been extremely popular in Israel for many years .


----------



## LiamO (Jan 4, 2014)

redsquirrel said:


> Are you really trying to say Anelka was completely ignorant of the background of this gesture? Why? It's been shown over and over again that such a claim simply does not stand up.



no. I was merely being a bit flippant on pointing out your choice of words ie "it has been proved ON THIS THREAD..."


----------



## Lemon Eddy (Jan 4, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Where?


You absolute, utter and abject prick.


----------



## LiamO (Jan 4, 2014)

Did these fellas know what they were doing?


----------



## LiamO (Jan 4, 2014)

This one certainly did. Fair play to him.


----------



## Casually Red (Jan 4, 2014)

LiamO said:


> This one certainly did. Fair play to him.



if you look closely that looks like a Quenelle


----------



## brogdale (Jan 4, 2014)

LiamO said:


> Did these fellas know what they were doing?
> 
> View attachment 46016



Doing what they were told to do, I'd imagine.


----------



## LiamO (Jan 4, 2014)

That's a legitimate excuse then?


----------



## brogdale (Jan 4, 2014)

LiamO said:


> That's a legitimate excuse then?



They were ordered to do that by Chamberlain's Foreign Office as part of the government's appeasement policy.

Why are you seeking to draw paralells with the focus of this thread?


----------



## Casually Red (Jan 4, 2014)

brogdale said:


> Doing what they were told to do, I'd imagine.



zey were only following orderz , ja ?


----------



## SpineyNorman (Jan 4, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> The substance of your post was speculation about why various people might oppose capitalism, and what they might want to put in its place.
> 
> I just don't think people's motives are so clearly identifiable, except in practice.  And any kind of revolutionary practice will utterly transform people's motives, aims, and possibilities, so there's little point in speculating about them beforehand.
> 
> ...



You're losing your touch phil, way too obvious.


----------



## brogdale (Jan 4, 2014)

Casually Red said:


> zey were only following orderz , ja ?


Well...ja, I suppose.

They were doing what their employers told them to do. Interesting account here, that places as much blame on the FA as the FO.

But like I said above, i don't quite see what useful paralells can be drawn with Anelka's gesture.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Jan 4, 2014)

Edie said:


> Phil, no, you mustn't do that. Stop. It's rude and fucking offensive.



Which is precisely why he's doing it. Doesn't believe a word of what he posts here.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Jan 4, 2014)

SpineyNorman said:


> Which is precisely why he's doing it. Doesn't believe a word of what he posts here.



What's your take on phil, spiney? I think he's an ok guy & either way I'll make my own mind up, but you've always come over as a sensible guy - What's your take on him.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Jan 4, 2014)

Frances Lengel said:


> What's your take on phil, spiney? I think he's an ok guy & either way I'll make my own mind up, but you've always come over as a sensible guy - What's your take on him.



I think he's probably not such a bad sort - out there in the real world I imagine I'd probably enjoy having a pint with him. But I think he sees posting on here as a kind of sport, with winding people up as his objective - which is pretty funny when appropriate, I've had drink come out of my nose laughing at some of the stuff he posts. But there's a time and a place for that kind of stuff IMO and it's not appropriate with subjects like antisemitism but he doesn't seem to be sensitive to that kind of thing and it makes him come across as a bit of a nob at times.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 4, 2014)

I think Phil is just a windup merchant tbh. I'm not really upset by anything he posts, he sees it as a game. It's a bit irritating but fairly harmless, as far as antisemitism goes I'm more upset by people who actually believe it or carry water for those who do.


----------



## FNG (Jan 5, 2014)

Surely Poes law applies to the stuff he comes out with though froggy?


Frances Lengel said:


> I know mate, what you've said needn't be a barrier to our already beautiful friendship and (dare I say with baited breath) our burgeoning relationship. I knew Afrikaa Bamaata along with Kool Herc more or less invented hip hop and I knew about Zulu Nation and that - I just wanted to show CR something that was a bit electro and try to explain to him what I was on about. Cheers though.



Whilst your motives are undoubtedly pure and intentions unquestionably noble, introducing the uninitiated to the sound of the bam in such a manner could have unforeseen consequences popping and locking of body joints or in extreme circumstances a sudden desire to confess a love of Demis Rousous, caution must be excercised when walking the path of Peace,Unity,Love and Having Fun.




Frances Lengel said:


> Have a look at this as well if you can be arsed - Imagine New York in them days. It must've been _great._





i'd recommend/namecheck 80 blocks from tiffany's, the 70s doccumentary about new york and the Savage Nomads
*80 Blocks From Tiffany's*


----------



## FNG (Jan 5, 2014)

and whatever you do don't show him this http://www.whosampled.com/Demis-Roussos/sampled/


----------



## FNG (Jan 5, 2014)

cantsin said:


> Planet Rock was the electro mothership to some degree ( after Cyberton)  whatever Bambatta's influence on hip hop -b though electro and hip hop were inextricably linked at that stage...weird that electro of that sort died out so quickly, considering how good some of it was.



It was a two stage transition mate a technological generation gap and change of emphasis between MC and DJ that marked the transition between old school and new school

first part was the arrival of drum machines and samplers onto the high street market which were cheaper and thus more accessible to aspiring hip hop musicians than the still very expensive synths associated with electro.

second was more complex, initially the DJ was the guy people went to the block to see perform,the mc was more a hype man there to encourage audience participation with call backs and a vocal style that owed a lot to the musical heritage of Be-bop and scat. As the role of the MC developed and they became more acknowledged performers then the music changed to reflect that.The tipping point was the MC battle between busy bee Starski and Kool Moe Dee. Where as Starski riffed over the top of the beats in traditional old school style Kool Moe Dee delivered his verse in a stacatto that complimented music with much more emphasis on the base,best exemplified here 

Electro never really died though,the producers moved into other strains of the dance genre,Such as  Go-Go retained a heavy funk/electro influence,washingtons Newcleuss released some good stuff well after the electro bubble had supposedly burst.
early chicago house,acid and garage (of the mid eighties chip e variety) hip house,and techno.

Arthur baker who produced planet rock and had his own sucess with Breakers revenge  moved into remixing mainstream pop acts such as hall and oates before mentoring Neenah Cherry's bufflo stance.

theres a good interview with Cybotron here  http://www.xlr8r.com/news/2013/10/read-brief-history-detroit-elect


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 5, 2014)

SpineyNorman said:


> I think he sees posting on here as a kind of sport



You're wrong.

This is what I think.

Capitalism (I prefer the term "usury" but let's not quibble here) is quite clearly the most voracious, evil and destructive power the world has ever seen.  It has already destroyed most indigenous cultures and societies, most of the environment, most of Western culture and most of the Western psyche.  Unless it is stopped very soon it is obviously going to destroy the entire world.

Who you gonna call?  The hard Left, that's who.  The radical Left.  After all they are supposed to be the anti-capitalists right?

So I come on here to see what ideas the hard Left might have on the subject.  What do I find?  Do I find any strategy for putting an end to capitalism?

Hell no.  Shit no.  _Fuck _no.  I find people chasing after "fascists," and inventing them when they can't find them (which is most of the time).  I find people chasing after "criminals," which for some reason I thought was the function of the police, who for some reason I thought Leftists might not wish to emulate.

Sorry but to me it looks like silly boys getting their rocks off by having punch-ups with other silly boys who are essentially indistinguishable from themselves in class, attitude, aspiration and--yes--politics.  It looks silly.

I think the reason for this silliness is that your thinking is trapped in an outmoded _metaphor.  _And that's all the Left/Right split ever was: a metaphor.  It had some valence in the C19th and early C20th.  It has none now.  It ought to be abandoned.  It prevents people from seeing what is really important, thus perpetuating capitalism by depriving it of any effective opposition.

From your comments I gather that you feel I have spoken too bluntly, thus giving offence to what you call "decent people."  If that's true, I'm sincerely sorry.  That was not my intention.  But you didn't seem like the sort of fellow to be so easily offended.  So I crave your indulgence one last time, for this encapsulates my message better than words alone:


----------



## manny-p (Jan 5, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Sorry but to me it looks like silly boys getting their rocks off by having punch-ups with other silly boys who are essentially indistinguishable from themselves in class, attitude, aspiration and--yes--*politics*.  It looks silly.


What! Prof the Academia is going to your head- you are wrong.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 5, 2014)

manny-p said:


> What! Prof the Academia is going to your head- you are wrong.



Tell me why dude.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 5, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Anyone on the "Left?"
> 
> Ryan Giggs played on the left, we could ask him I suppose.
> 
> Personally I'd never argue that, but then I'm a midfielder.



[When you have a moment, could you pop back to the Religion thread and set out the logical argument for monotheism that you mentioned? I'm interested in hearing it.]


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 5, 2014)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> [When you have a moment, could you pop back to the Religion thread and set out the logical argument for monotheism that you mentioned? I'm interested in hearing it.]



Hang on Johnny, I'm fucking up capitalism this morning.  Proving the existence of God comes on around 2pm.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 5, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Hang on Johnny, I'm fucking up capitalism this morning.  Proving the existence of God comes on around 2pm.



So, there it will be when I get up on Sunday.


----------



## cesare (Jan 5, 2014)

phildwyer What's a bit irritating is that you seem to have ignored all discussions many of us have had on here or MATB on the subject, and seem to be stomping around with your "closed" stamp as if you've just discovered it,


----------



## SpineyNorman (Jan 5, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> You're wrong.
> 
> This is what I think.
> 
> ...



You're trying way too hard now Phil.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 5, 2014)

cesare said:


> phildwyer What's a bit irritating is that you seem to have ignored all discussions many of us have had on here or MATB on the subject, and seem to be stomping around with your "closed" stamp as if you've just discovered it,



Ignored them?  _Ignored them?  _I fucking _started _most of them.


----------



## cesare (Jan 5, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Ignored them?  _Ignored them?  _I fucking _started _most of them.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 5, 2014)

SpineyNorman said:


> You're trying way too hard now Phil.



Piss off then you twat.  I tried.


----------



## LiamO (Jan 5, 2014)

I'm off after today, Phil.

Just wanted to say I have enjoyed your contributions since your return. 

I actually like having my own views, perceptions and (to call a spade a spade) _prejudices_ challenged. variety is the spice of life and all that. I don't have to agree with what you write to recognise that you make a valid contribution in challenging sacred cows. Sometimes you overstep the mark (all that pseudo-Jew stuff? really?) but I do that myself all too often so I am in no position to Judge you or anybody else.

I hope you will still be here, provocative as ever, on my return as IMO Urban would be a poorer place without the likes of you.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Jan 5, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Piss off then you twat.  I tried.




I do have a strategy for overthrowing capitalism but I'm not able to tell anyone about it in full (to stop the CIA/MI5 getting wind of my plans innit) so I can only explain it one stage at a time. 

But the first thing we do, we kill all the academics


----------



## LiamO (Jan 5, 2014)

SpineyNorman said:


> But the first thing we do, we kill all the academics



Spiney Pol Pot?


----------



## SpineyNorman (Jan 5, 2014)

LiamO said:


> Spiney Pol Pot?


*LONG LIVE THE GLORIOUS REVOLUTION AND SPINEY NORMAN THOUGHT!*


----------



## seventh bullet (Jan 5, 2014)

The National Democratic Revolution has been completed.  Onward to Socialism.

Was he against those people per se?  Not wanting to mix up academic with intellectual.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Jan 5, 2014)

seventh bullet said:


> The National Democratic Revolution has been completed.  Onward to Socialism.
> 
> Was he against those people per se?  Not wanting to mix up academic with intellectual.


I don't know but I am lol


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 5, 2014)

SpineyNorman said:


> I do have a strategy for overthrowing capitalism



Course you do mate.  Cheers!

It may be we shall rise the last as Frenchmen rose the first,
Our wrath come after Russia's wrath and our wrath be the worst.
It may be we are meant to mark with our riot and our rest
God's scorn for all men governing. It may be beer is best.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Jan 5, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Course you do mate.  Cheers!
> 
> It may be we shall rise the last as Frenchmen rose the first,
> Our wrath come after Russia's wrath and our wrath be the worst.
> ...








With






And then






Fuck I'm bored today.


----------



## Nice one (Jan 5, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Who says that it's supposed to be both? What is the other part of the gesture - the anti-establishment component made of? They suggest that the two are the same and you endorse this logic in this post, so where is it? That's the danger of this bloody thing.



The two polarised positions are 1. an inverted nazi salute 2. a generalised expression of derision/contempt/mockery/defiance. If you look at the constituency Dieudonné is appealing to - black arab immigrant disnenfranchised alienated youths simply introducing a nazi salute into your cultural armoury won't gain much traction. 

If it was simply a way to identify your anti-semitic tendencies/sympathies then it was done secretly only comminucating with others 'in the know'. Once it is publicly revealed as an anti-semitic gesture (as it has been) its purpose becomes redundant (Anelka denies he's anti-semitic and must continue to deny he's anti-semitic) and all you are left with is sniggering neo-nazis posing in front of jewish symbols. So it has to retain a semblance of generalised meaning in order for it to be effective.  

The quenelle works (worked) as both coded messaging and innocent gesture depending how much ignorance you want to attach to the person doing it. And yes that's what makes it dangerous.


----------



## LiamO (Jan 5, 2014)

You took your time Nice one .... but that'll do for me.... thanks.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 7, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> No, I've studied Third Way Fascism, Strasserism and Islamic Judeophobia quite thoroughly, thank you.
> 
> I'm convinced that "right-wing" is a stupid way to conceive any of them.  Because among many other reasons it ignores their undoubted, passionate and potentially rather useful anti-capitalism.


useful, eh.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 7, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> useful, eh.



You have the mentality of Yagoda.  You fucking freak.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 7, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> You have the mentality of Yagoda.  You fucking freak.


you don't like it when you're caught out


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 7, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> you don't like it when you're caught out


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 7, 2014)

phildwyer said:


>


you're in no position to accuse anyone of anything after your posts about the armenian genocide.


----------



## Greebo (Jan 7, 2014)

Dieudonne and Anelka's quenelle have just been mentioned on "the World Tonight" R4.  Can't imagine where they do their research.


----------



## manny-p (Jan 8, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> you're in no position to accuse anyone of anything after your posts about the armenian genocide.


What did the prof say about the Armenian genocide?


----------



## cesare (Jan 8, 2014)

manny-p said:


> What did the prof say about the Armenian genocide?


He's adopting the Justin McCarthy position - that it wasn't a genocide but just the result of civil war. It's a conversation taking place on the 1914-1918 thread atm.


----------



## manny-p (Jan 8, 2014)

cesare said:


> He's adopting the Justin McCarthy position - that it wasn't a genocide but just the result of civil war. It's a conversation taking place on the 1914-1918 thread atm.



Ta Cesare. Just gives more credibility to the prof is a cunt theory which is going round.


----------



## eatmorecheese (Jan 9, 2014)

Dieudonne's ban on performing reinstated:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-25668275


----------



## DexterTCN (Jan 9, 2014)

The man (not Anelka) in his own words.


----------



## redsquirrel (Jan 10, 2014)

So what's he saying then?


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 10, 2014)

redsquirrel said:


> So what's he saying then?



According to YouTube's caption translation: "Thereof everyone is happy with his sister rescue, do not give in to hatred and violence as the subject vehicle loan."

Hard to argue with that really.


----------



## treelover (Jan 10, 2014)

Incredible to see ostensibly decent ordinary people doing the 'quenelle' outside the Anne Frank House, the Wailing Wall, even Auschwitz, no ambiguity there at all, what is going on?


----------



## elbows (Jan 10, 2014)

Well if anti-semitism rarely infected those in the 'ostensibly decent ordinary people' group then it's doubtful it would ever have given much cause for concern.


----------



## elbows (Jan 10, 2014)

And the passing of much time since world war 2 seems to reveal that the potential poisons of populism have not changed.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 10, 2014)

I just think any sort of politics that relies on celebrity "endorsement", celebs, "comedians", footballers etc is sort of gonna be a bad idea really, the sort of behaviour I've seen in my neighbourhood the last few days with people helping out with the floods, lending each other trolleys, complete strangers offering to do shopping and collect sandbags etc, gives me a lot of hope, a lot more so than the likes of these celebs who are feted as some sort of popular heroes by the left etc who think it's great that "its getting people talking about politics" when actually we don't need celebs telling us what to do really.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 10, 2014)

ultimately that sort of community solidarity is where anything positive is going to come from


----------



## MellySingsDoom (Jan 10, 2014)

Just spotted this on the BBC News site - ban re-instated on Dioudonne: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-25668275

And also:  a short article on the CST blog about the Alain Soral quenelle picture: http://blog.thecst.org.uk/?p=4699


----------



## DexterTCN (Jan 10, 2014)

redsquirrel said:


> So what's he saying then?


I thought a know-it-all like you would know 

You've judged him after all.   And me.


----------



## Casually Red (Jan 11, 2014)

treelover said:


> Incredible to see ostensibly decent ordinary people doing the 'quenelle' outside the Anne Frank House, the Wailing Wall, even Auschwitz, no ambiguity there at all, what is going on?



it might have something to do with the fact that the french establishments persuance of the neo liberal EU project relies heavily on the Auschwitz theme as a moral justification for the entire EU project . If your anti EU your therefore being some sort of a nationalist, and nationalism leads to Auschwitz . Thats the message that gets constantly hammered home by the establishment over there. We have to have this infernal unending beauracracy that disempowers citizens and puts them out of work with nothing they can do about it otherwise therell be nations, and ultimately Auschwitz . As the french establishment cant champion neo liberal economics on any type of moral grounds it resorts to silencing dissent by use of collective guilt over the holocaust, pretty cynically .

French people who were born generations after those events are being told not to dissent from the establishment line because to go any other direction than theirs leads straight to Auschwitz . Despite not being born until generations later they should feel guilt, and to atone for that guilt they have to support the EU and its policies, otherwise its the road back to Auschwitz .

Theres a resentment at having to take that collective guilt on board thats tied in with accepting the political status quo as well. And from what  I can see thats why french people who im pretty sure arent fascists are doing this stuff . Even the FN aspect of it doesnt really wash...in recent years Le Pen herself has been heavily courting the french jewish lobby , with her anti Islamism.

it looks to me like the quennelle in front of those places by those ordinary people is a fuck you to that . Not to the victims of the holocaust as such but to the way their murders are being used by the establishment to persue its own aims and silence dissent. Thats how it looks to me .

And thats not to support it by any means, i think its an extremely tasteless, crappy and disrespectful way to go about making an anti establishment point . But ultimately thats what  I think it is . People with no or insecure jobs sick to the back teeth of being told about a war that ended generations before they were born, as a justification for the policies that are fucking them today .

And im not buying this inverted upside down nazi salute shit for a minute, thats a complete load of nonsense that doesnt stand up to any scrutiny at all, we are definitely being lied to and deceived on that point .


----------



## Casually Red (Jan 11, 2014)

elbows said:


> And the passing of much time since world war 2 seems to reveal that the potential poisons of populism have not changed.



so wed better have the EU and neo liberalism as the antidote ? Im pretty sure thats not your reponse but it certainly is the french establishments.

Personally I think its a reaction to the constant repetition and usage of the Auschwitz theme by the french political establishment to silence its critics, not any type of support for what happened in Auschwitz .Youre lucky enough to live in a country that wasnt occupied by the nazis . The political dynamics of guilt over the holocaust and collaboration isnt something you have to experience as a game your own establishment play . In Britain instead they use the poppy to justify how_ we are all in it together for the greater good_, in France the Shoah .

Just consider for a minute how respectful youd feel if your own establishment , right and left, constantly used the Auschwitz theme to justify their own anti worker policies

And im more of the opinion now the furore that has emerged against Anelka and  Dieudonne from within the french establishment has a lot more to do with a government thats sitting on a 14 percent approval rating . Thats not to say either of them are great guys, I dont have much time for either . But theres a massive whiff of bullshit coming off this the deeper you look into it .


----------



## goldenecitrone (Jan 11, 2014)

Casually Red said:


> it looks to me like the quennelle in front of those places by those ordinary people is a fuck you to that . Not to the victims of the holocaust as such but to the way their murders are being used by the establishment to persue its own aims and silence dissent. Thats how it looks to me .
> 
> And im not buying this inverted upside down nazi salute shit for a minute, thats a complete load of nonsense that doesnt stand up to any scrutiny at all, we are definitely being lied to and deceived on that point .



What about this example, outside a Jewish school where three children and a rabbi were shot dead?







Not anti-semitic?


----------



## Casually Red (Jan 11, 2014)

goldenecitrone said:


> What about this example, outside a Jewish school where three children and a rabbi were shot dead?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



a middle finger or a wanker sign can be used for anti semitic purposes, it doesnt make them anti semitic gestures in themselves. Ive no doubt as well  anti semitic bigots use the thing for anti semitic purposes too .


----------



## goldenecitrone (Jan 11, 2014)

Casually Red said:


> it looks to me like the quennelle in front of those places by those ordinary people is a fuck you to that . Not to the victims of the holocaust as such but to the way their murders are being used by the establishment to persue its own aims and silence dissent. Thats how it looks to me .



Knowing that anti-semitic bigots make that gesture as a sign of their anti-semitism, does it still seem likely that people making that gesture at Auschwitz are making an anti-French establishment gesture?


----------



## Casually Red (Jan 11, 2014)

if they arent nazis or fascists then yes

eta

are you seriously claiming Diedonnes followers, the people who pack out his shows are anti semitic...fascists..doing nazi style salutes


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 11, 2014)

What a load of fucking shit.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 11, 2014)

Casually Red said:


> it might have something to do with the fact that the french establishments persuance of the neo liberal EU project relies heavily on the Auschwitz theme as a moral justification for the entire EU project . If your anti EU your therefore being some sort of a nationalist, and nationalism leads to Auschwitz . Thats the message that gets constantly hammered home by the establishment over there. We have to have this infernal unending beauracracy that disempowers citizens and puts them out of work with nothing they can do about it otherwise therell be nations, and ultimately Auschwitz . As the french establishment cant champion neo liberal economics on any type of moral grounds it resorts to silencing dissent by use of collective guilt over the holocaust, pretty cynically .
> 
> French people who were born generations after those events are being told not to dissent from the establishment line because to go any other direction than theirs leads straight to Auschwitz . Despite not being born until generations later they should feel guilt, and to atone for that guilt they have to support the EU and its policies, otherwise its the road back to Auschwitz .
> 
> ...



Nailed it.  Thanks.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 11, 2014)

Casually Red said:


> it might have something to do with the fact that the french establishments persuance of the neo liberal EU project relies heavily on the Auschwitz theme as a moral justification for the entire EU project . If your anti EU your therefore being some sort of a nationalist, and nationalism leads to Auschwitz . Thats the message that gets constantly hammered home by the establishment over there. We have to have this infernal unending beauracracy that disempowers citizens and puts them out of work with nothing they can do about it otherwise therell be nations, and ultimately Auschwitz . As the french establishment cant champion neo liberal economics on any type of moral grounds it resorts to silencing dissent by use of collective guilt over the holocaust, pretty cynically .
> 
> French people who were born generations after those events are being told not to dissent from the establishment line because to go any other direction than theirs leads straight to Auschwitz . Despite not being born until generations later they should feel guilt, and to atone for that guilt they have to support the EU and its policies, otherwise its the road back to Auschwitz .
> 
> ...


Apologist horseshit. Rancid.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 11, 2014)

Depressing that guy was given a platform, can't say I'm surprised though.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 11, 2014)

And there's loads of antisemitism in France, young Jewish people living in parts of Paris are also the victims of police racism etc.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 11, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Apologist horseshit. Rancid.



Looks to me like some people _want _him to be a fascist.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 11, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> And there's loads of antisemitism in France, young Jewish people living in parts of Paris are also the victims of police racism etc.



But no-one has denied any of this.  Have they?

With all respect Frogster, you do this a lot.  You seem to see arguments that are not there.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 11, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> But no-one has denied any of this.  Have they?
> 
> With all respect Frogster, you do this a lot.  You seem to see arguments that are not there.



I'm not arguing with anyone I'm saying its not an 'anti establishment' thing, how could it be, dieudonne is a millionaire


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 11, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> I'm not arguing with anyone I'm saying its not an 'anti establishment' thing, how could it be, dieudonne is a millionaire



OK, I thought you were addressing CR's post.  I agree with you about celebrity politics.  I could never support anything that seeks celebrity endorsement.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 11, 2014)

If you're in his position nothing you do is anti establishment. Why doesn't he give his money away if he wants to fight the system?


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 11, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> OK, I thought you were addressing CR's post.  I agree with you about celebrity politics.  I could never support anything that seeks celebrity endorsement.



I wasn't addressing his post. I'll reply to it later


----------



## Favelado (Jan 11, 2014)

Casually Red said:


> it might have something to do with the fact that the french establishments persuance of the neo liberal EU project relies heavily on the Auschwitz theme as a moral justification for the entire EU project . If your anti EU your therefore being some sort of a nationalist, and nationalism leads to Auschwitz . Thats the message that gets constantly hammered home by the establishment over there. We have to have this infernal unending beauracracy that disempowers citizens and puts them out of work with nothing they can do about it otherwise therell be nations, and ultimately Auschwitz . As the french establishment cant champion neo liberal economics on any type of moral grounds it resorts to silencing dissent by use of collective guilt over the holocaust, pretty cynically .
> 
> French people who were born generations after those events are being told not to dissent from the establishment line because to go any other direction than theirs leads straight to Auschwitz . Despite not being born until generations later they should feel guilt, and to atone for that guilt they have to support the EU and its policies, otherwise its the road back to Auschwitz .
> 
> ...




How do you find yourself outside a former concentration camp making an "anti-establishment" gesture that looks quite like a Nazi salute without thinking "this might end up looking a bit anti-semitic, maybe I'll leave it"? You either are actually anti-semitic or you are a fucking idiot. In either case, I have no sympathy for the person in question.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 11, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> OK, I thought you were addressing CR's post.  I agree with you about celebrity politics.  I could never support anything that seeks celebrity endorsement.



The point is that antisemitism is not anti establishment it never has and never will be and by saying it is he's (dieudonne) essentially promoting ideas of a Jewish conspiracy. There are ways to make the point about how anti racism and anti fascism have to some extent been coopted by capital without doing/saying this stuff


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 11, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> The point is that antisemitism is not anti establishment it never has and never will be and by saying it is he's (dieudonne) essentially promoting ideas of a Jewish conspiracy.



I honestly don't see how.

I also know that accusations of "promoting ideas of a Jewish conspiracy" can be used to quell legitimate dissent and rational opinion.  

For example they are constantly used to descredit (or at least make unsayable) the manifest and important truth that American middle east policy is determined by the Zionist lobby.


----------



## Casually Red (Jan 11, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> I'm not arguing with anyone I'm saying its not an 'anti establishment' thing, how could it be, dieudonne is a millionaire



sos gerard depardieu and Brigitte Bardot, are you seriously going to argue they support the french political establishment

Is Russell Brand pro British establishment too


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 11, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> the manifest and important truth that American middle east policy is determined by the Zionist lobby.



Bollocks


----------



## Casually Red (Jan 11, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> If you're in his position nothing you do is anti establishment. Why doesn't he give his money away if he wants to fight the system?




and how will that, even remotely, undermine either capitalism, the EU or the french political establishment .
it wont, not by one iota


----------



## brogdale (Jan 11, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> I honestly don't see how.
> 
> I also know that accusations of "promoting ideas of a Jewish conspiracy" can be used to quell legitimate dissent and rational opinion.
> 
> For example they are constantly used to descredit (or at least make unsayable) the manifest and important truth that American middle east policy is determined by the Zionist lobby.



Seen from an anarchist perspective, It's relatively straight-forward to see anti-semitic motives in anti-zionists if their rejection of (theological) states is limited to one example.


----------



## Casually Red (Jan 11, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> I honestly don't see how.
> 
> I also know that accusations of "promoting ideas of a Jewish conspiracy" can be used to quell legitimate dissent and rational opinion.
> 
> For example they are constantly used to descredit (or at least make unsayable) the manifest and important truth that American middle east policy is determined by the Zionist lobby.



but thats absolute bollocks

jewish mind rays simply dont exist, and never have done, and never will do


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 11, 2014)

AIPAC etc have some influence but they don't 'determine' it ffs


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 11, 2014)

Favelado said:


> an "anti-establishment" gesture that looks quite like a Nazi salute



And this is another thing.

How does it look like a Nazi salute?

It doesn't really, does it?

And even if you claim it's an "upside down Nazi salute," that would normally be interpreted as a sign of contempt, as when a flag is flown upside down.

People are just seeing whatever they want to see in this story.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 11, 2014)

Casually Red said:


> but thats absolute bollocks



How would you know?


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 11, 2014)

Casually Red said:


> sos gerard depardieu and Brigitte Bardot, are you seriously going to argue they support the french political establishment
> 
> Is Russell Brand pro British establishment too



Who fucking cares?


----------



## Casually Red (Jan 11, 2014)

Favelado said:


> How do you find yourself outside a former concentration camp making an "anti-establishment" gesture that looks quite like a Nazi salute without thinking "this might end up looking a bit anti-semitic, maybe I'll leave it"? You either are actually anti-semitic or you are a fucking idiot. In either case, I have no sympathy for the person in question.




how in the name of feck does that even remotely look like a nazi salute

it simply doesnt


----------



## Casually Red (Jan 11, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> How would you know?



because im in on the real jew conspiracy and they, the elders,  told me

also the point your making doesnt stand up to any logical scrutiny.

And because the house of Saud arent jewish.

but you could well know otherwise i suppose


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 11, 2014)

brogdale said:


> Seen from an anarchist perspective, It's relatively straight-forward to see anti-semitic motives in anti-zionists if their rejection of (theological) states is limited to one example.



Not just from an anarchist perspective.

Alan Dershowitz has been pushing this line hard in recent years.  The argument runs as follows:

"All peoples have a right to self-determination; but anti-Zionists deny this right to the Jews alone; therefore anti-Zionism is anti-semitism."

It's obviously a crap argument, and I doubt you need me to tell you why.  But I will if you like.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 11, 2014)

Casually Red said:


> because im in on the real jew conspiracy and they told me
> 
> also the point your making doesnt stand up to any logical scrutiny.
> 
> ...



I do indeed know otherwise.  So does anyone with more than a cursory knowledge of American politics.


----------



## Casually Red (Jan 11, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> I do indeed know otherwise.  So does anyone with more than a cursory knowledge of American politics.



so the house of Saud are really crypto jews then


----------



## Favelado (Jan 11, 2014)

Casually Red said:


> how in the name of feck does that even remotely look like a nazi salute
> 
> it simply doesnt



Oh I don't know. The straightened arm in a different position to provide the same type of plausible denialibility that you're indulging in. I think it looks  like one. You don't, or rather you do but you're trolling and pretending you don't. I think there's enough debate about it to suggest it does resemble one to many people.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 11, 2014)

Casually Red said:


> so the house of Saud are really crypto jews then



The House of Saud are American puppets.

What's your point?


----------



## Casually Red (Jan 11, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> AIPAC etc have some influence but they don't 'determine' it ffs



they have influence primarily because their interests and US imperial interests coincide . The day those interests diverge is the day they are out on their arse


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 11, 2014)

That and he's written racist songs and is mates with known antisemites even entering political activity with them 



Favelado said:


> Oh I don't know. The straightened arm in a different position to provide the same type of plausible denialibility that you're indulging in. I think it looks  like one. You don't, or rather you do but you're trolling and pretending you don't. I think there's enough debate about it to suggest it does resemble one to many people.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 11, 2014)

Favelado said:


> I think it looks  like one.



I completely believe you.

But it obviously doesn't.  The arm points in the wrong direction.  The Nazis didn't do that thing with the fingers.  

Therefore, it looks nothing like a Nazi salute.  But here's the thing: _that does not prevent people from thinking that it does._

Weird huh?


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 11, 2014)

Surely american FP is determined by what oil companies, pharmaceutical companies, the security services, the people in the white house etc think is in their interests, which may not all be the same thing, not some 'Zionist lobby'


----------



## brogdale (Jan 11, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> I completely believe you.
> 
> But it obviously doesn't.  The arm points in the wrong direction.  The Nazis didn't do that thing with the fingers.
> 
> ...



I thought the whole point of the thread was about what the gesture signifies, not what 'it looks like'.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 11, 2014)

Casually Red said:


> they have influence primarily because their interests and US imperial interests coincide .



No they do not coincide.

What the Americans need from the middle east is oil.

Who has the oil?

Does America make nice with the people who have the oil?

No, American does the opposite.

That's very strange.  Why on earth would America do that?

It ain't rocket science dude.


----------



## Favelado (Jan 11, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> I completely believe you.
> 
> But it obviously doesn't.  The arm points in the wrong direction.  The Nazis didn't do that thing with the fingers.
> 
> ...



So the outstretched arm and stiffened hand, both features of the Nazi salute, are mere coincidences? Of course it's been modified, that's why it's a pseudo Nazi salute and not an actual one. It has to be changed so that people can do it with plausible deniability.


----------



## brogdale (Jan 11, 2014)

Favelado said:


> So the outstretched arm and stiffened hand, both features of the Nazi salute, are mere coincidences? Of course it's been modified, that's why it's a pseudo Nazi salute and not an actual one. It has to be changed so that people can do it with plausible deniability.



But seriously, it could be anything...it's what the folk gesturing intend that matters.


----------



## manny-p (Jan 11, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Therefore, it looks nothing like a Nazi salute.  But here's the thing: _that does not prevent people from thinking that it does._
> 
> Weird huh?


Maybe cause the people pictured doing it are doing it infront of Jewish places of worship, culture, concentration camps and war memorials to jewish people massacred.


----------



## Casually Red (Jan 11, 2014)

Favelado said:


> Oh I don't know. The straightened arm in a different position to provide the same type of plausible denialibility that you're indulging in. I think it looks  like one. You don't, or rather you do but you're trolling and pretending you don't. I think there's enough debate about it to suggest it does resemble one to many people.



Ive zero interest in trolling on this subject, it doesnt look even remotely like a nazi salute and dolphins have got sweet fuck all to do with either nazis or jews . And there hasnt been debate that suggests any such thing, theres been the french governments line against their most prominent and popular critic that they want silenced. That your happy to swallow uncritically .


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 11, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> I completely believe you.
> 
> But it obviously doesn't.  The arm points in the wrong direction.  The Nazis didn't do that thing with the fingers.
> 
> ...



I just don't get why you're making this argument, he's obviously a complete scumbag


----------



## xslavearcx (Jan 11, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Not just from an anarchist perspective.
> 
> Alan Dershowitz has been pushing this line hard in recent years.  The argument runs as follows:
> 
> ...



is that really how that kinda argument goes down in your opinion? Reads a bit straw mannish to me to be honest...


----------



## manny-p (Jan 11, 2014)

Casually Red said:


> Ive zero interest in trolling on this subject, it doesnt look even remotely like a nazi salute and dolphins have got sweet fuck all to do with either nazis or jews . And there hasnt been debate that suggests any such thing, theres been the french governments line against their most prominent and popular critic that they want silenced. That your happy to swallow uncritically .


Are you for real?


----------



## Casually Red (Jan 11, 2014)

Favelado said:


> Oh I don't know. The straightened arm in a different position to provide *the same type of plausible denialibility that you're indulging in*. I think it looks  like one. You don't, or rather you do but you're trolling and pretending you don't. I think there's enough debate about it to suggest it does resemble one to many people.



please explain this to me...why in the name of fuck would I even remotely want to engage in plausible deniability to cover for a fascist salute, in your esteemed opinion. What on earth would be my motivation in that regard .

thisll be interesting no doubt


----------



## Casually Red (Jan 11, 2014)

manny-p said:


> Are you for real?



if youve a point make one


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 11, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> And this is another thing.
> 
> How does it look like a Nazi salute?
> 
> ...




So writing songs to take the piss out of the holocaust like dieudonne has done, starting 'anti-zionist' political parties with former members of far-right groups, etc, is all right? No he's just being anti establishment, leave him alone..


----------



## Favelado (Jan 11, 2014)

Casually Red said:


> Ive zero interest in trolling on this subject, it doesnt look even remotely like a nazi salute and dolphins have got sweet fuck all to do with either nazis or jews . And there hasnt been debate that suggests any such thing, theres been the french governments line against their most prominent and popular critic that they want silenced. That your happy to swallow uncritically .



To answer your points in order. You are a troll. That it contains some of the features of a Nazi salute is completely undeniable and does look "remotely" like one by any sensible definition. There has indeed been debate that suggests it looks like one. Finally, your point about me uncritically swallowing a French government line is a straw man. You've just made that up and I've said nothing that can lead to that conclusion. I'm just saying that the gesture is at the very least ambiguous enough to be interpreted as anti-semitic or is overtly anti-semitic.


----------



## manny-p (Jan 11, 2014)

Casually Red said:


> if youve a point make one


From-Butchersapron-post #1356- "The reality is that Dieudonné has been on the far right and engaging in anti-semitism since the early 2000s and has been publicly well known for being and doing so in France since then.

Secondly, the idea that this was just part of a sketch _about _dolphins and so had no anti-semitic content in itself when first used: it's reported that it was part of a sketch about things secretly running the world and that in the clowns worldview it's Jews who secretly run the world how much more obvious do you think the metaphor has to be?"


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 11, 2014)

xslavearcx said:


> is that really how that kinda argument goes down in your opinion? Reads a bit straw mannish to me to be honest...



That's Dershowtiz's argument.  I'm not sure of the anarchist line.


----------



## xslavearcx (Jan 11, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> That's Dershowtiz's argument.  I'm not sure of the anarchist line.



think im gonna watch _the case for isreal _on netflix at some point in the next few days...


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 11, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> So writing songs to take the piss out of the holocaust like dieudonne has done, starting 'anti-zionist' political parties with former members of far-right groups, etc, is all right?



You're doing it again!


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 11, 2014)

Casually Red said:


> please explain this to me...why in the name of fuck would I even remotely want to engage in plausible deniability to cover for a fascist salute, in your esteemed opinion. What on earth would be my motivation in that regard .
> 
> thisll be interesting no doubt



This is what annoys me too.

The _immediate, instinctive _recourse to accusations of sympathy with fascism and/or anti-semitism.

Some people have absolutely no compunction about levelling such accusations in the most frivilous and crude manner imaginable.

Obviously this reveals only their own failure to grasp the nature or dimensions of fascism or anti-semitism, as well as their lack of any real interest in opposing them.


----------



## Casually Red (Jan 11, 2014)

Favelado said:


> So the outstretched arm and stiffened hand, both features of the Nazi salute, are mere coincidences? Of course it's been modified, that's why it's a pseudo Nazi salute and not an actual one. It has to be changed so that people can do it with plausible deniability.



bullshit, it began in a sketch about dolphins, who have no arms . Its also necessary to stiffen ones arm somewhat if your sticking it up someones backside







i suppose the eagles in the background diminish somewhat the plausible deniability of these people doing their unmistakable nazi salute


----------



## Favelado (Jan 11, 2014)

Casually Red said:


> please explain this to me...why in the name of fuck would I even remotely want to engage in plausible deniability to cover for a fascist salute, in your esteemed opinion. What on earth would be my motivation in that regard .
> 
> thisll be interesting no doubt



My answer is no more extravagant than the word "trolling". I think you're insincere in your contributions and that you're here to wind people up. That's it really.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 11, 2014)

Dieudonne invented the thing though, didn't he!


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 11, 2014)

Casually Red said:


> Its also necessary to stiffen ones arm somewhat if your sticking it up someones backside



The voice of experience I fear.


----------



## Casually Red (Jan 11, 2014)

Favelado said:


> My answer is no more extravagant than the word "trolling". I think you're insincere in your contributions and that you're here to wind people up. That's it really.



well let me sincerely make this contribution, just because I dont agree with you does not make me a troll. Sometimes people are right and sometimes theyre wrong . Thats how it is, on this occasion I think your wrong, on plenty of others ive agreed with you and liked your posts .Im actually letting myself get wound up even by engaging on this, not the other way round . However despite that im going to try and stay polite regsrdless of provocations . The evidence just doesnt support your take on this .


----------



## Favelado (Jan 11, 2014)

Casually Red said:


> well let me sincerely make this contribution, just because I dont agree with you does not make me a troll. Sometimes people are right and sometimes theyre wrong . Thats how it is, on this occasion I think your wrong, on plenty of others ive agreed with you and liked your posts .Im actually letting myself get wound up even by engaging on this, not the other way round . However despite that im going to try and stay polite regsrdless of provocations . The evidence just doesnt support your take on this .



For you to be right though, we need to move into a world where well-meaning ingenues hang around death-camps, and, with only the very purest of motives, get photographed making hand signals that contain some elements of a Nazi salute but are actually saying something completely different. At no point do they think that the gesture might be misconstrued and nor does it occur to them that it's inappropriate behaviour.

Surely it is reasonable of me to find this a stretch?


----------



## Casually Red (Jan 11, 2014)

Favelado said:


> For you to be right though, we need to move into a world where well-meaning ingenues hang around death-camps, and, with only the very purest of motives, get photographed making hand signals that contain some elements of a Nazi salute but are actually saying something completely different. At no point do they think that the gesture might be misconstrued and nor does it occur to them that it's inappropriate behaviour.
> 
> Surely it is reasonable of me to find this a stretch?



thats a straw man, as you are well aware the vast majority of instances of it being used are nowhere either symbols or people with any jewish connotations whatsoever. For example, heres it being used to mock, stealth bumming style, the french justice minister 







and here to mock DSK at the scene of his arrest






its pretty obvious theres zero anti semitic or nazi connotations in either context, but plenty of anti establishment sentiment and mockery .

So it cant be defined simply as a nazi salute or anti semitic gesture when the people using it simply dont have that intent or purpose, and for the umpteenth time it doesnt remotely look like one . And Im not remotely surprised the most despised French government since Petain , just days before a tabloid exposes Hollande as an adulterous philanderer having an affair with a prominent french actress pounce on Anelka and the quenelle as a handy distraction . While at the same time demonising a symbol of contempt for themselves.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 11, 2014)

Casually Red said:


> stealth bumming



This_ is_ what it really means, right?

That's why the guy has the measurements on his arm: it's like "I fuck you up the ass _this _much."

That's it, isn't it?

I get it now.  Bloody French eh?


----------



## Casually Red (Jan 11, 2014)

[quote="Favelado, post: 12843396, member: 





> To answer your points in order. You are a troll.



im tempted to say go fuck yourself you arrogant prick, but as ive promised to remain polite i wont . Disagreeing with you does not comprise trolling, regardless of how annoying you find it. This simply isnt funny, theres no jollies to be had here .



> That it contains some of the features of a Nazi salute is completely undeniable and does look "remotely" like one by any sensible definition.



people have arms, and nazis use arms to salute , thats about the only undeniable feature it has in common . It doesnt look anything like a nazi salute .


> There has indeed been debate that suggests it looks like one.



and part of that debate has an awful lot of people saying it doesnt look anything like a nazi salute. Which is presumably why so many people have apparently been doing a nazi salute they had no idea was a nazi salute . As most people are pretty aware what a nazi salute looks like . It being sort of instantly recognisable .


> Finally, your point about me uncritically swallowing a French government line is a straw man. You've just made that up and I've said nothing that can lead to that conclusion. I'm just saying that the gesture is at the very least ambiguous enough to be interpreted as anti-semitic or is overtly anti-semitic



were it not for the fact so many people have used it in patently non anti semitic contexts and against figures with no semitic background youd be right. Except youre wrong .


----------



## Casually Red (Jan 11, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> This_ is_ what it really means, right?
> 
> That's why the guy has the measurements on his arm: it's like "I fuck you up the ass _this _much."
> 
> ...



it symbolises a suppository, how far Im going to shove it up. Thats why the guy with the measurements on his arm is grimacing at the scene of DSKs infamy. Theres no anti semitism at all in that context .

But theres no doubt its also used in an anti semitic context as well . Or that Dieudonne has come out with some awful anti semitic stuff.


----------



## Favelado (Jan 11, 2014)

Casually Red said:


> thats a straw man, as you are well aware the vast majority of instances of it being used are nowhere either symbols or people with any jewish connotations whatsoever. For example, heres it being used to mock, stealth bumming style, the french justice minister
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I made specific reference to the occasions when it IS being done outside locations sensitive to Jewish people. My post is not a straw-man because it does not misrepresent your view. Everything contained in that post must be true for your claims to be correct. I am not claiming that the quenelle is always used as an anti-semitic gesture, that is your straw-man argument against me. I'm saying that it is likely to be very often an anti-semitic gesture, that it was created by an anti-semite and that it seems an extraordinary coincidence that it contains some of the features of a Nazi salute. You can't just say "it doesn't look like one." It's got a stiff arm and a stiff hand pointed at an angle in it. It's a fucking stone cold fact that it has plenty in common with a fascist salute. It's absurd to think that it never crossed the mind of an outspoken, anti-Jewish, politically-aware figure as he thought it up. "Oh, this is probably fine, no-ones going to read into this at all!" Bollocks.

Also, when you do it outside a death camp, it is impossible that you don't have any idea of what you're doing. Why are people stood around grinning in photos outside Auschwitz at all? Who thinks any kind of "funny" photo is a good idea? Anti-semites, that's who.

In previous posts you have stated that it is an only an anti-establishment gesture in these instances. I find this very, very difficult to believe and I would like you to confirm that you think people go to these types of places and have these kind of pictures taken with no anti-semitic connotation in their minds.

Is that really what you think? Because, this is what I'm really contending here. It seems a singularly foolish, or inflammatory claim.


----------



## Favelado (Jan 11, 2014)

PS - Don't feel the need to be polite - say what you like!


----------



## rekil (Jan 11, 2014)

DSK is jewish.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 11, 2014)

Casually Red said:


> it symbolises a suppository, how far Im going to shove it up.



Got it.

See, that just wouldn't even _occur _to British people.  The channel is wider than it looks.


----------



## Casually Red (Jan 11, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Got it.
> 
> See, that just wouldn't even _occur _to British people.  The channel is wider than it looks.



My take on it is its like DM boots in British culture. For the fash they were an indispensible part of fash expression and identity, an outwardly nazi symbol synonymous with everything they stood for . But for a lot of other people it meant something else entirely no matter how heavily they were identified with fascism as a symbol and attitude.

Im being accused of trolling here because I can see the difference in why people do it . My only beef is I cant stand the thought of ordinary people making an anti establishment gesture being smeared with the nazi brush. And  I can see perfectly well why the deeply unpopular french political establishment would want to do that . And I can also see theyve pretty much succeeded  .


----------



## Casually Red (Jan 11, 2014)

copliker said:


> DSK is jewish.



true, id forgotten that

but i truly, sincerely, with all conviction doubt that had the slightest thing to do with him being quenelled


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 11, 2014)

I truly sincerely blah blah:


----------



## Favelado (Jan 11, 2014)

This is not in direct response to Casually Red . Rather, new developments in the row and background information.  The "pineapple holocaust" comes from a portmanteau of the two words in French, and is used in his routine.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-25668275


> Some of the fans outside the Zenith gave Dieudonne's trademark _quenelle_ gesture, which is regarded by many as an inverted Nazi salute.
> Some fans brandished pineapples. One of the comic's most notorious songs, Shoananas, roughly translates as Pineapple-Holocaust and mocks commemoration of the Nazi extermination of the Jews.
> French media who have sent reporters to previous performances of The Wall say it contained a string of derogatory references to Jews.


----------



## manny-p (Jan 11, 2014)

Casually Red said:


> true, id forgotten that
> 
> but i truly, sincerely, with all conviction doubt that had the slightest thing to do with him being quenelled


Troll boy.


----------



## kraepelin (Jan 11, 2014)

Being generous lets say you thought the gesture was anti establishment.

The second you see it being used out side Anne franks house, their is absolutely no excuse to ever use it or turn a blind eye while other use it

I thought anti semitism was confined to a few hardcore bone heads, but the pure diversity of the people in the pictures doing it is shocking.

My neigbour is 85 and used the term colored when referring to our black neigbour,I told him that most black people find that term offensive he apologize profusely and i've never heard him say it again.. Is it really too much to ask that people realise how the use of the gesture has changed and not use it
Its like the people who wont stop using gay,paki or chinky because "hey thats not what i mean when i use it'


----------



## Casually Red (Jan 11, 2014)

the gesture coveys what the people using it wish to convey


----------



## Casually Red (Jan 11, 2014)

copliker said:


> DSK is jewish.



hes also the epitomy of establishment neo liberalism and personal slime . The only reason an arm shouldnt be stuffed up his rapist ass is he probably paid prostitues 5 grand a go to do exactly that and then stuck it on his IMF expence account .


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 11, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Not just from an anarchist perspective.
> 
> Alan Dershowitz has been pushing this line hard in recent years.  The argument runs as follows:
> 
> ...



Dershowitz has had very little credibility "in recent years", what with the plagiarism and all.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 11, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> No they do not coincide.
> 
> What the Americans need from the middle east is oil.
> 
> ...



The support of the state of Israel isn't about oil, it's about the US having a strategic interest in Israel as a bulwark against Islamic interests, and as a physical beachhead into the wider Middle East and north Africa *if* that's ever necessary.
remember that those staging posts that the US do have in the M.E and N.A exist on sufferance, and often on the fact that those states are not democratically-run.

"The Israel Lobby" doesn't set foreign policy, but it does work to bring wider US geo-strategic objectives and the objectives of the state of Israel into harmony.


----------



## equationgirl (Jan 11, 2014)

The intent is irrelevant, it's how something is received, whether it be sexist, racist, homophobic or anti-semitic. To try and claim otherwise is ridiculous.

I am absolutely disgusted that anti-semitism is once again appearing on urban.


----------



## Casually Red (Jan 11, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> The support of the state of Israel isn't about oil, it's about the US having a strategic interest in Israel as a bulwark against Islamic interests, and as a physical beachhead into the wider Middle East and north Africa *if* that's ever necessary.
> remember that those staging posts that the US do have in the M.E and N.A exist on sufferance, and often on the fact that those states are not democratically-run.
> 
> "The Israel Lobby" doesn't set foreign policy, but it does work to bring wider US geo-strategic objectives and the objectives of the state of Israel into harmony.



Id agree in parts, except the US was supporting the zionists just as strongly when the major perceived threat to both interests was secular Arab nationalism and not islamism..indeed it was a much more serious threat . I also believe oil is pretty crucial too . But apart from that I agree, theyre supported primarily because  of their strategic location . They also owe a lot of their prominence to their ability to put a human, moralising face on a grubby imperial exercise . To invest it with a moral crusade, good white europeans surrounded by hostile darky barbarians, plucky homesteaders keeping the holy land white and civilised .

Despite that the zionists will end up like the north koreans should US geopolitical interests shift . Barely tolerated by their former sponsors, skint and starving but a nuclear capable mad dog threatening everyone .


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 11, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Not just from an anarchist perspective.
> 
> Alan Dershowitz has been pushing this line hard in recent years.  The argument runs as follows:
> 
> ...


no, please don't. life's too short etc


----------



## Favelado (Jan 11, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> no, please don't. life's too short etc



Surely more satisfying to say "Yes" and then not read the answer.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 11, 2014)

Favelado said:


> Surely more satisfying to say "Yes" and then not read the answer.


good point well made.


----------



## revol68 (Jan 11, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> The intent is irrelevant, it's how something is received, whether it be sexist, racist, homophobic or anti-semitic. To try and claim otherwise is ridiculous.
> 
> I am absolutely disgusted that anti-semitism is once again appearing on urban.



The quenelle is not anti semitic simply because of how it is recieved, it is anti semitic precisely because of it's origins and continued use, the fact that some people may claim they don't have that intent doesn't change that, likewise neither does the fact that many supporters of Israel receive many criticisms of its actions as anti semitic make them so.

Reducing meaning to individual intent or reception is post modern bullshit, though unfortunately all too common.

On one hand we have arseholes who engage in racist, sexist or anti semitic antics and then disavow them by appeals to their subjective intent, on the other you have the permanently offended arseholes who reduce politics to their personal feelings, two sides of the same irrationalist coin.


----------



## revol68 (Jan 11, 2014)

Casually Red said:


> the gesture coveys what the people using it wish to convey



Alright Humpty Dumpty.

You cretin.


----------



## revol68 (Jan 11, 2014)

Casually Red said:


> My take on it is its like DM boots in British culture. For the fash they were an indispensible part of fash expression and identity, an outwardly nazi symbol synonymous with everything they stood for . But for a lot of other people it meant something else entirely no matter how heavily they were identified with fascism as a symbol and attitude.
> 
> Im being accused of trolling here because I can see the difference in why people do it . My only beef is I cant stand the thought of ordinary people making an anti establishment gesture being smeared with the nazi brush. And  I can see perfectly well why the deeply unpopular french political establishment would want to do that . And I can also see theyve pretty much succeeded  .



Shut up you stupid cunt, comparing it to wearing DM's, really...


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 11, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> The intent is irrelevant, it's how something is received, whether it be sexist, racist, homophobic or anti-semitic. To try and claim otherwise is ridiculous.
> 
> I am absolutely disgusted that anti-semitism is once again appearing on urban.



Two things that pissed me off today, a guy we met was really sound until hr started talking during a conversation with him about 'the unanswered questions' about the holocaust which included who the Israelites are and about the new Jerusalem! And a woman from work who saw me giving out leaflets and thought I was working for an organization rather than just being a protester!


----------



## treelover (Jan 11, 2014)

Casually Red said:


> bullshit, it began in a sketch about dolphins, who have no arms . Its also necessary to stiffen ones arm somewhat if your sticking it up someones backside
> 
> 
> 
> ...



What's that all about?


----------



## revol68 (Jan 11, 2014)

People are really complacent about anti semitism in the Uk because it really isn't a political force indeed the last time it got any media coverage was Baddiel's idiotic attempt to stop Spurs fans calling themselves the Yid army.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 11, 2014)

treelover said:


> What's that all about?



It's a sideways Nazi salute.


----------



## treelover (Jan 11, 2014)

Favelado said:


> This is not in direct response to Casually Red . Rather, new developments in the row and background information.  The "pineapple holocaust" comes from a portmanteau of the two words in French, and is used in his routine.
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-25668275
> 
> ...




The weirdest thing is amongst the massive crowd which included lots of Muslims,were far right activists, unholy alliances, as it were.


----------



## revol68 (Jan 11, 2014)

treelover said:


> What's that all about?



Dust off your shoulder.

Basically Obama looking to assert his urban street cred.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 11, 2014)

revol68 said:


> People are really complacent about anti semitism in the Uk because *it really isn't a political force*



Exactly.  It hasn't been since the C13th.  I can't imagine that it ever could be.  We leave that sort of nonsense to the continentals.


----------



## treelover (Jan 11, 2014)

no ambiguity to what the guy on the right is signalling...


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 11, 2014)

treelover said:


> no ambiguity to what the guy on the right is signalling...




That scarf


----------



## treelover (Jan 11, 2014)

eh?


----------



## Favelado (Jan 11, 2014)

treelover said:


> The weirdest thing is amongst the massive crowd which included lots of Muslims,were far right activists, unholy alliances, as it were.



Jean Marie Le Pen is godfather to Dieudonné's godson accoring to the web.


----------



## Casually Red (Jan 11, 2014)

treelover said:


> What's that all about?



its obama being an anti semite, you cretin

just ask king billy there, hell fill you in


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 11, 2014)

Is this clown actually really making the same mistake as Anelka by posting that Lord Obama pic or is he trying to make some other point?


----------



## Casually Red (Jan 11, 2014)

revol68 said:


> People are really complacent about anti semitism in the Uk because it really isn't a political force indeed the last time it got any media coverage was Baddiel's idiotic attempt to stop Spurs fans calling themselves the Yid army.



It wasnt an attempt you fuckwit, he succeeded. Spurs fans were arrested for it .


----------



## revol68 (Jan 11, 2014)

Out doing yourself on this thread Casually...


----------



## revol68 (Jan 11, 2014)

Casually Red said:


> It wasnt an attempt you fuckwit, he succeeded. Spurs fans were arrested for it .



Has he stopped them, no.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 11, 2014)

Favelado said:


> Jean Marie Le Pen is godfather to Dieudonné's godson accoring to the web.



How many godfathers does the little blighter have?


----------



## Casually Red (Jan 11, 2014)

revol68 said:


> Reducing meaning to individual intent or reception is post modern bullshit, though unfortunately all too common.
> 
> On one hand we have arseholes who engage in racist, sexist or anti semitic antics and then disavow them by appeals to their subjective intent,.



such as the spurs fans you were defending there, just a minute ago, you cock


----------



## Favelado (Jan 11, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> How many godfathers does the little blighter have?



I put "according to the web" as I think it needs double-checking, which I'll do now.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 11, 2014)

treelover said:


> eh?



Look at the markings


----------



## treelover (Jan 11, 2014)

You'll have to explain, can't see anything


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 11, 2014)

treelover said:


> You'll have to explain, can't see anything



Oh OK I thought it looked to me like a Nazi type design on it with the stripes etc.


----------



## Buckaroo (Jan 11, 2014)

Ha! Scarf Nazis! It's the thumb 'I've got your nose' Nazi gesture what gets me.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 11, 2014)

Buckaroo said:


> Ha! Scarf Nazis! It's the thumb 'I've got your nose' Nazi gesture what gets me.



Scarf Nazis must die


----------



## kraepelin (Jan 11, 2014)

revol68 said:


> People are really complacent about anti semitism in the Uk because it really isn't a political force indeed the last time it got any media coverage was Baddiel's idiotic attempt to stop Spurs fans calling themselves the Yid army.



I know i've been guilty of this. Only really hearing anti semitism in connection with israel. But this whole incident has been a wake up call.
You don't have to look too hard to find anti semitism alive and well, and often going unchallenged


----------



## revol68 (Jan 11, 2014)

Casually Red said:


> such as the spurs fans you were defending there, just a minute ago, you cock



Really...

You are one dumb fuck.


----------



## brogdale (Jan 11, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Scarf Nazis must die


----------



## Casually Red (Jan 11, 2014)

revol68 said:


> Really...
> 
> You are one dumb fuck.



it took you a full hour to think up that stunning comeback after your foot got stuck in your big mouth

now fuck off you little orange cunt


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 11, 2014)

surf nazis must die 

it promises so much as a title but as a prog its just rubbish


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 11, 2014)

Perhaps if my old employers had done the quenelle while talking about how Jews control Ukraine and run all the money laundering there it would have been an anti establishment gesture instead of corrupt racist scum trying to put everyone in their place. Maybe to avoid any discrimination claims they should be sure to do that in future if they want to start discussing the Jews while one is sitting right there having to listen to all their crap.

It pisses me the fuck off, how anyone could think this stuff is anti establishment, the majority of Jews I know could only dream of the sort of money that these cunts earn in a day. I bet if dieudonne's house would never be at risk of flooding and if not he could just pay some poor sod to lick up all the water. I bet he's never have to deal with landlords giving him one weeks notice so he can start some weird S and M set up. Etc

Yet somehow ... No. Just no.


----------



## revol68 (Jan 11, 2014)

Casually Red said:


> it took you a full hour to think up that stunning comeback after your foot got stuck in your big mouth
> 
> now fuck off you little orange cunt



No, I was watching the Athletico Barca match.


But I don't really have much to add, arguing with someone who thinks the Spurs Yid Army thing is anything like these cunts doing the "Quenelle".

One is the appropriation of yid as an insult into a badge of pride by the gentiles and jews it was aimed at, the other is a an anti semitic salute based on an inverted sieg heil invented by an avidly anti semitic comedian and is to be found performed by cunts in front of Auschwitz and Holocaust memorials in general.

The fact some people imagine it is anti establishment and use it in a generalised anti establishment way (as opposed to outside Anne Frank's house) doesn't make it any less anti semitic, it just means that their anti establishment politics come with anti semitism, something they at best are content to tolerate or see no contradiction with. I imagine many in 1930's Spain, Italy and Germany had similar attitudes towards Nazism.


----------



## Belushi (Jan 11, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> It pisses me the fuck off, how anyone could think this stuff is anti establishment, the majority of Jews I know could only dream of the sort of money that these cunts earn in a day.



150 years ago the great August Bebel described anti-Semitism as the socialism of fools, sadly his words are as true now as they were then.


----------



## kraepelin (Jan 11, 2014)

The only anti semitism i really saw first hand was when i was 20 and working with the nicest guy from northern ireland they we are installing sinks. And he turns to me and say "tony watch out for the jews they control the money, their out pulling all the strings" and the thing is he seem shit scared like he was letting me into something that would get him killed.

I never got my head around it i've met about 4 jews in my life(that ive know) Not knowing my history it seem like he just picked the most random group and invented the most unbelieve plot for them.shit there one of the smallest of the big religions, yet were suppose to believe that they control the world. I knew about the holocaust.
But it was only with this thread that i looked into the history and current position of anti semitism and now i understand why icke gets the hard time he does. Doesnt matter how small a target you make your self (no pushing your religion on others) some cunt will still make you into the enemy

The crazy thing is the 1st time we when to the local football astro truff. We wented pasted the Jewish free school and everybody Black,asian,white run over to the window and screams GAS EM ALL GAS EM ALL. and im sutting there thinking what the fuck.. Hitler would have gased the black kids as well and my mate steve as he was disabled.I was no angel but fuck were do 60 kids get that much hate.
O.K my dad was a bit anti english..but never even we were suppose to hate jews, maybe its being a traveler but it was odd that these kids black,asian many not born in england had learned this hate

Sorry im high. And reading up on anti semitism has kind of freaked me out.its like no matter what race, religion we can find a reason to hate you. Even if we've never even met you


----------



## rekil (Jan 11, 2014)

I think it's been said but nazis and the like have a habit of providing ludicrous obfuscatory explanations for actions. It's a manipulative tactic, all part of the gag. These desperate attempts to apply some innocent intent to the quennelle remind me of the Berlin pub owner who claimed that his customers were shouting the German for 'tastes great', and not 'sieg heil'.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 11, 2014)

copliker said:


> I think it's been said but nazis and the like have a habit of providing ludicrous obfuscatory explanations for actions. It's a manipulative tactic, all part of the gag. T*hese desperate attempts to apply some innocent intent to the quennelle remind me of the Berlin pub owner who claimed that his customers were shouting the German for 'tastes great', and not 'sieg heil'.*





Fuck I know I shouldn't but


----------



## rekil (Jan 11, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Fuck I know I shouldn't but


Found it.



> Eight years ago, Barrington was prosecuted after posting a picture on his website of an undercover policeman and captioning it with "this bullet is for you". Barrington now says the caption was simply a quote from a "well-known song".
> 
> Today he still likes playing with words and numbers. A popular cocktail on sale at his pub is the Himla, made with raspberry rum, and paying homage to Heinrich Himmler, the Nazi police chief. The numbers on his T-shirt translate as Adolf Hitler (A=1, H=8). Tomorrow Barrington will host one of his most popular parties, where drinks cost just 88 cents. It's just a "promotion for people with not so much money at the end of the month", he said.
> 
> Yes, he conceded in an email later, the Himla "could be seen as a provocation, but people remember it and it has turned out to be one of the most talked about drinks in Berlin. Do not forget we are a pub and not a party political headquarters. We do not have to be politically correct." As for the Sieg Heil-ing, perhaps we had misheard. Could they not have said "schmeckt geil!" (tastes great!)?


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 11, 2014)

copliker said:


> Found it.



Fuck me that is amazing


----------



## goldenecitrone (Jan 11, 2014)

I was wondering. Schmeckt gut wouldn't really have worked. Neither does schmeckt geil though. Too many consonants.


----------



## equationgirl (Jan 11, 2014)

Casually Red said:


> it took you a full hour to think up that stunning comeback after your foot got stuck in your big mouth
> 
> now fuck off you little orange cunt


Sectarianism? Completely unacceptable.


----------



## goldenecitrone (Jan 11, 2014)

Casually Red said:


> it took you a full hour to think up that stunning comeback after your foot got stuck in your big mouth
> 
> now fuck off you little orange cunt



Enough of the Sectarian bullshit, thanks.


----------



## revol68 (Jan 12, 2014)

But Orange bastards much like the Jews are simply a barrier in the way of national manifest destiny.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 12, 2014)

Does Dieudonne have any other jokes about other topics or does he just bang on about the Jews all the time? Like in order for someone to be a comedian usually they have to be funny?


----------



## rekil (Jan 12, 2014)

Probably referring to the libdems. 'Is it racist to dislike liberals now?' etc



frogwoman said:


> Does Dieudonne have any other jokes about other topics or does he just bang on about the Jews all the time? Like in order for someone to be a comedian usually they have to be funny?


Dunno, but I remember seeing posters for his shows all over the place when I was in France 10+ years ago. He was dressed as a German officer.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 12, 2014)

Also, dieudonne means 'God's gift' is that his real name?


----------



## MellySingsDoom (Jan 12, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Also, dieudonne means 'God's gift' is that his real name?



According to his Wikipedia entry, that is indeed his birth name.

Talking of whom, on his French Wiki page, it has bits on his association with Alain Soral - have done a Google Translate and it's below:



> In his book far will we go down ? Primer ambient stupidity , published in 2002, before the controversy due to sketch on France 3 , Alain Soral blames Dieudonné105 , and accuses him of castigating the "white slavery ." Describing the comedian of " uneducated and not funny now ," the author writes , "If Dieudonné gets angry on the French rabble , the same one that made him a star in our beautiful if somewhat racist country , it may perhaps because he itches to point the logically designated by its demand for a fairer representation of 'visible minorities' community? An "invisible community" certainly over-represented in the show- biz in terms of quotas, but that it also owes its sweet status funny. "Following these writings, Dieudonné want to meet Soral . In 2004 , the two men get to know and become friends and ultimately politically close , coming together , according Soral about " Zionism and juif106 lobby ."Therefore associated with the two men will approach the National Front and develop together their " anti-Zionism" , together create a " Zionist " list in the European elections , even supporting Iran, Hezbollah and Bashar al -Assad Syria, as evidenced by the number of documents on the site Soral (equality and reconciliation ), for example when the relay is the speech of Hezbollah in this Article 107 among many others to support this trend.It in fact shared with Alain Soral that the authors of the book The galaxy Dieudonné : to end the impostures108 call " political obsession of" anti-Zionism " " to hide , but less , where antisemitism are found and far-right ideas and radical Islam are based, according to the thesis of the authors.An article Monde109 studying the strange friendships Dieudonné . The authors write : " In the center of this galaxy, a political club : Equality and Reconciliation [ founded by Alain Soral ...] Dieudonné is now displayed as a sort of companion Equality and Reconciliation . The association intends to convert to political nationalism young people from backgrounds , particularly those from immigrant . Ideological matrix Equality and Reconciliation borrows the political line of GUD , driven by Mr. Chatillon at the turn of the 1990s, when it imposed a violently anti-Zionist position on behalf of the defense of identity . During a demonstration of support for the Palestinians , Paris, January 24 , Alain Soral and part of his troops and attempted to march to the cries of " Zionist, casse-toi , France is not yours! " On this occasion, Mr. Soral declare : " We French patriots, (...) are treated Palestinians in our own country. " And he will greet " everywhere, Venezuela, Iran , Russia, the new resistance rises against the new world order under American imperium . " That day , Equality and Reconciliation was hosted in the procession of the new Zionist Party created by the radical Shiite center Zahra often performed at the Theatre of the Golden Hand of Dieudonné and assiduously courted by the extreme right


----------



## Favelado (Jan 12, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Also, dieudonne means 'God's gift' is that his real name?



There is a  Spanish surname "Diosdado" (god-given) so there's probably a variant in every latin language.


----------



## Favelado (Jan 12, 2014)

Mass 'quenelle' outside synagogue sparks court action in Bordeaux

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jan/12/french-courts-to-decide-over-quenelle


----------



## chilango (Jan 12, 2014)

Casually Red said:


> it took you a full hour to think up that stunning comeback after your foot got stuck in your big mouth
> 
> now fuck off you little orange cunt



Nice.

You do know how you're coming across here don't you?

Clumsy apologism for anti-semitism followed by crude sectarianism.

Maybe you didn't mean it, maybe you you're being misunderstood, maybe you don't give a fuck, either way worth reflecting on how you are portraying yourself.


----------



## revol68 (Jan 12, 2014)

The joke is I'm a taig, just not a nationalist, ergo I'm a defacto stooge of imperialism.

If you haven't  already picked up on Casually's nuanced political logic, it's all out in the open on this thread.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 12, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Oh OK I thought it looked to me like a Nazi type design on it with the stripes etc.



And you thought the quenelle looked like a Nazi salute.

No offence, but you're seeing what you want to see here.  As are many others.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 12, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> And you thought the quenelle looked like a Nazi salute.
> 
> No offence, but you're seeing what you want to see here.  As are many others.



It does, and is it unreasonable to think that a comedian who is publically and consistently antisemitic and does songs that take the piss out of the holocaust might have Nazis among their fans?
Of course not


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 12, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> It does, and is it unreasonable to think that a comedian who is publically and consistently antisemitic and does songs that take the piss out of the holocaust might have Nazis among their fans?
> Of course not




And people wonder why Israelis are on the paranoid side.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 12, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> It does, and is it unreasonable to think that a comedian who is publically and consistently antisemitic and does songs that take the piss out of the holocaust might have Nazis among their fans?



I didn't say it was.

You're doing it again.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 12, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> I didn't say it was.
> 
> You're doing it again.



No I'm not, I asked you a question, I didn't say you thought it was


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 12, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> No I'm not, I asked you a question, I didn't say you thought it was



Of course it's not unreasonable.

I've never denied that Dieudonne is anti-semitic.  I've denied that he is right-wing.


----------



## JimW (Jan 12, 2014)

There was that old Anglo-Saxon name Godgifu means same iirc


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 12, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Of course it's not unreasonable.
> 
> I've never denied that Dieudonne is anti-semitic.  I've denied that he is right-wing.



But i thought you said the quenelle wasn't antisemitic


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 12, 2014)

I was waiting for a bus today beside the Talmud Torah school. It's an elementary jewish school. On the side of the building along the road, concrete barriers are installed between the sidewalk and the building, the kind you see at embassies. The bottom row of windows, at about waist height, have been walled in with concrete. The playground is behind high fences, with green material to obscure the vision of anyone trying to look in.

There's a civic-run school one block away. It has none of these security features.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 12, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> But i thought you said the quenelle wasn't antisemitic



I said it wasn't necessarily anti-semitic.  I don't think Anelka's an anti-semite.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 12, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> I said it wasn't necessarily anti-semitic.



I think it kind of is tbh unless you're a complete idiot


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 12, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> I think it kind of is tbh



Why?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 12, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> I said it wasn't necessarily anti-semitic. .


The Nazi salute isn't Nazi if a person does it trying to reach a can on the top shelf, either.

So what?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 12, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> I said it wasn't necessarily anti-semitic.  I don't think Anelka's an anti-semite.



The intellectual quibbling is amusing to watch; but there is unfortunately a realpolitik aspect to all of this.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...girl-cornered-in-school-and-shot-in-head.html


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 12, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Why?



OK well there might have been a few people who didn't know what it meant and they might have just been doing it cos dieudonne is a funny guy or something 

But now everyone knows what it means, or almost everyone, and in the UK the only thing he is now known for is antisemitism, and nobody in France could have heard of him and not know the controversy about him


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 12, 2014)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> The Nazi salute isn't Nazi if a person does it trying to reach a can on the top shelf, either.
> 
> So what?



So Anelka, the subject of this thread, is not anti-semitic.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 12, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> So Anelka, the subject of this thread, is not anti-semitic.



Do you know him? Have you met him?


----------



## brogdale (Jan 12, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Of course it's not unreasonable.
> 
> I've denied that he is right-wing.



Why would you wish to say that?

Working, associating with and befriending senior members of the FN, whilst promoting anti-semitism would appear to be consistent with someone comfortable with the far right.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 12, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> So Anelka, the subject of this thread, is not anti-semitic.



I never said he definitely was, he might just be an idiot


----------



## Favelado (Jan 12, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> And you thought the quenelle looked like a Nazi salute.
> 
> No offence, but you're seeing what you want to see here.  As are many others.



Of course it looks like a Nazi salute. It features an outstretched right arm and the hand is placed in an identical manner. How doesn't it look like one?

Also, I don't WANT to see one at all. What makes you think that? I don't have an agenda at all on this issue. I'm saying what I see, just as if it was an espisode of Catchphrase.

Casually Red and yourself really have come out with some risible comments in this thread. I don't know if it's worse if you are trolling or if you actually mean this shit. It's probably better if you are both on a wind-up.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 12, 2014)

Favelado said:


> Of course it looks like a Nazi salute. It features an outstretched right arm and the hand is placed in an identical manner. How doesn't it look like one?



The arm points downwards, and they do that thing with the fingers of the other hand.

So it obviously looks nothing like a Nazi salute. 

The Communist clenched fist salute looks more like a Nazi salute than the quenelle does.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 12, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> So Anelka, the subject of this thread, is not anti-semitic.



Some guy makes a racist gesture. He then denies that he meant to be racist.

And you believe him.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 12, 2014)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> Some guy makes a racist gesture. He then denies that he meant to be racist.
> 
> And you believe him.



Yes.  Because the gesture is not inherently racist.  As we have seen.  Did you miss the bit about the suppository?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 12, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> The arm points downwards, and they do that thing with the fingers of the other hand.
> 
> So it obviously looks nothing like a Nazi salute. .



Well there you go: it can't be racist, then.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 12, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> the gesture is not inherently racist.



Ah: not _inherently_ racist. Now I'm catching on.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 12, 2014)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> Ah: not _inherently_ racist. Now I'm catching on.



You catch on fast.

Since it is not inherently racist, it can be used in a non-racist manner.

That's logic that is.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 12, 2014)

There's nothing _inherently_ racist about a pineapple.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 12, 2014)

We're discussing Anelka atm, he has nothing to do with pineapples.

Do you think Anelka is a racist?


----------



## Favelado (Jan 12, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> You catch on fast.
> 
> Since it is not inherently racist, it can be used in a non-racist manner.
> 
> That's logic that is.



A cat has 4 legs. A chair has 4 legs. Therefore a chair is a cat. That's logic too. It's still bollocks though.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 12, 2014)

Favelado said:


> A cat has 4 legs. A chair has 4 legs. Therefore a chair is a cat. That's logic too.



No it is not logic.

It is illogical.

That is the opposite of logic.

Something tells me I am unlikely to make much progress in this argument.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 12, 2014)

This man is probably just checking his pulse.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 12, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> We're discussing Anelka atm, he has nothing to do with pineapples.
> 
> Do you think Anelka is a racist?


----------



## Favelado (Jan 12, 2014)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> This man is probably just checking his pulse.



It doesn't look like a Nazi salute at all. We're all just seeing things because we want to.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 12, 2014)

Johnny, before you bombard this thread with stuff that's already been posted numerous times, why don't you have a quick read of it?


----------



## brogdale (Jan 12, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> We're discussing Anelka atm



Yeah, but don't forget this, eh?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 12, 2014)

Favelado said:


> It doesn't look like a Nazi salute at all. .



That's the idea. If it looked like a Nazi salute, the French authorities would be arresting people.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 12, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Johnny, before you bombard this thread with stuff that's already been posted numerous times, why don't you have a quick read of it?



Phil liked your post.

Idiocy makes strange bedfellows.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 12, 2014)

brogdale said:


> Why would you wish to say that?
> 
> Working, associating with and befriending senior members of the FN, whilst promoting anti-semitism would appear to be consistent with someone comfortable with the far right.



Oh man.

Look, it's not your fault, that's a perfectly reasonable question.

It's just that we spent most of the thread on this subject already.

Basically, I'm arguing that the "Left/Right" dichotomy is outmoded and useless for understanding C21st politics.

I think Dieudonne is a good example of a figure who transcends this dichotomy.

But I don't want to repeat the whole discussion here.  Sorry.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 12, 2014)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> Phil liked your post.
> 
> Idiocy makes strange bedfellows.


Here is the definitive proof that you haven't bothered reading the thread.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 12, 2014)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> Phil liked your post.
> 
> Idiocy makes strange bedfellows.



And now the circle is complete.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 12, 2014)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> Phil liked your post.
> 
> Idiocy makes strange bedfellows.



Johnny (no cheating now), have you ever seen a photo of Anelka the alleged racist?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 12, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> I think Dieudonne is a good example of a figure who transcends this dichotomy.
> 
> .



But of what relevance is that to the question of whether or not hatred/prejudice is being promoted?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 12, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Johnny (no cheating now), have you ever seen a photo of Anelka?



Yes. Dark skin, bald head, beard.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 12, 2014)

If you're about to say that dark-skinned people can't carry prejudices, you should be careful.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 12, 2014)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> Yes. Dark skin, bald head, beard.



Does he look like a racist?

_(Pulp Fiction mode)_


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 12, 2014)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> Phil liked your post.
> 
> Idiocy makes strange bedfellows.


Given that you're arguing the position that i have been for the last two weeks (and i've been far more effective) which bed does this place you in?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 12, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Does he look like a racist?
> 
> _(Pulp Fiction mode)_








Does he look like a racist?


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 12, 2014)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> If you're about to say that dark-skinned people can't carry prejudices, you should be careful.



They tend not to make Nazi salutes.  As a general rule like.


----------



## weepiper (Jan 12, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Does he look like a racist?
> 
> _(Pulp Fiction mode)_



Really, phil? _Really?_


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 12, 2014)

weepiper said:


> Really, phil? _Really?_



God no.  Not _really._

What time is it anyway?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 12, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> They tend not to make Nazi salutes.  As a general rule like.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 12, 2014)

Bosnians?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 12, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Bosnians?



Some in your country would argue that a touch of the Turkish tarbrush could bring their 'white' status into question...


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 12, 2014)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> Some in your country



I have no country.


----------



## Buckaroo (Jan 12, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> I have no country.



No country would have you.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 12, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> I have no country.


That's just because you're an old man.


----------



## rekil (Jan 12, 2014)

Favelado said:


> I'm saying what I see, just as if it was an espisode of Catchphrase.


Roy Walker was telling jew jokes on NI telly around new years eve! "I asked Mr.Cohen could I borrow his lawnmower. He said alright, as long as you don't take it out of the garden."


----------



## brogdale (Jan 12, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Basically, I'm arguing that the "Left/Right" dichotomy is outmoded and useless for understanding C21st politics.
> 
> I think Dieudonne is a good example of a figure who transcends this dichotomy.



You might claim that Dieudonne is above/beyond the R/L 'dichotomy', but you specifically claimed he "is not right wing". 

I'd be interested in how you'd attempt to justify that claim, after all this is a man who certainly does not transcend politics; he has entered elections as a candidate, formed at least one political party and assumed leadership of it. So there's plenty of evidence of his ideological position.

 Why are you keen to distance Dieudonne and the PAS from the far right?


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 12, 2014)

Let's clear this dolphin stuff up - _again_. The gesture is supposed to show how far the dolphins/zionists/jews who secretly run the world are fucking everyone else over. _Right up to here!_


----------



## chilango (Jan 12, 2014)

Fuckin' idiots.

There's really not much open to question here.

*1/ The quenelle itself.
*
Clearly and obviously inspired by the fascist salute. The straight arm, rigid flat palm etc. Though, yes, it also incorporates an element of gestures such as the _bras d'honneur_, it's knowing nod to fascism is transparent and deliberate. 

The original meaning of the quenelle is of limited importance now anyway. Neither the swastika nor celtic cross, for example, are of fascist origin yet are undeniable symbols of fascism now...in the relevent context.

*2/ The inventor of the quenelle.
*
An anti-semite who happily runs with the far-right, and allows them to run with him. What's to debate here?

*3/ Those using the quenelle. 
*
The evidence of it being used with anti-semitic intent is overwhelming. Does that mean that everyone using it, on every occasion, is an avowed anti-semite or fascist. No, of course not, just as not every kid mindlessly flaunting swastikas (Yes, Sex Pistols, I'm looking at you) is a Nazi. That doesn't change the meaning of the _quenelle_, nor negate the politics behind it. 






*4/ Does Anelka look like a fascist?
*
This isn't the first time the white far-right and Muslim groups with a tendency towards anti-semitism have run together. It won't be the last either.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 12, 2014)

brogdale said:


> You might claim that Dieudonne is above/beyond the R/L 'dichotomy', but you specifically claimed he "is not right wing".
> 
> I'd be interested in how you'd attempt to justify that claim, after all this is a man who certainly does not transcend politics; he has entered elections as a candidate, formed at least one political party and assumed leadership of it. So there's plenty of evidence of his ideological position.



As I said, we've been through this before.  

He's been a candidate for a party described as "extreme left-wing" etc.  His views are a mixture of those traditionally associated with the Left and those traditionally associated with the Right.  But you'll really need to read the thread.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 12, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Let's clear this dolphin stuff up - _again_. The gesture is supposed to show how far the dolphins/zionists/jews who secretly run the world are fucking everyone else over. _Right up to here!_



Can you do the pineapples too please?


----------



## brogdale (Jan 12, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> As I said, we've been through this before.
> 
> He's been a candidate for a party described as "extreme left-wing" etc.  His views are a mixture of those traditionally associated with the Left and those traditionally associated with the Right.  But you'll really need to read the thread.



AFAIK his leftist politics relate to activity at leat15 years ago. I asked you directly how his recent and current ideological position could be described as anything other than right wing, and why you feel personally motivated to deny that. 

I assume from your answer that you can't, and don't want to.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 12, 2014)

brogdale said:


> AFAIK his leftist politics relate to activity at leat15 years ago. I asked you directly how his recent and current ideological position could be described as anything other than right wing, and why you feel personally motivated to deny that.
> 
> I assume from your answer that you can't, and don't want to.



No, it's just that I've done it already.  Many times.  On this thread.  Which you should read before you post on it again.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 12, 2014)

brogdale said:


> AFAIK his leftist politics relate to activity at leat15 years ago. I asked you directly how his recent and current ideological position could be described as anything other than right wing, and why you feel personally motivated to deny that.
> 
> I assume from your answer that you can't, and don't want to.


The fact that he's moved onto a different crowd with different members and positions -  members and positions that are attacked by his old crowd - demonstrates pretty clearly for those with open eyes (and non _heh heh aren't i naughty everyone?_ intentions) the existence of differing positions, a left and a right.


----------



## brogdale (Jan 12, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> No, it's just that I've done it already.  Many times.  On this thread.  Which you should read before you post on it again.



So not one sliver of evidence for your claim, then?


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 12, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> The fact that he's moved onto a different crowd with different members and positions -  members and positions that are attacked by his old crowd - demonstrates pretty clearly for those with open eyes (and non _heh heh aren't i naughty everyone?_ intentions) the existence of differing positions, a left and a right.



Differing positions, sure.

But I've no idea why you'd want to describe them as "Left-" or "Right-wing."


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 12, 2014)

brogdale said:


> So not one sliver of evidence for your claim, then?



Tons of it.

Last time:

_*You need to read the thread.*_


----------



## brogdale (Jan 12, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Differing positions, sure.
> 
> But I've no idea why you'd want to describe them as "Left-" or "Right-wing."



I think most folk here would understand the ideology of the FN & PAS as right-wing. You've been asked to evidence why you think Dieudonné's position is not right wing...and singularly failed to do so.


----------



## brogdale (Jan 12, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Tons of it.
> 
> Last time:
> 
> _*You need to read the thread.*_


 Such as?


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 12, 2014)

brogdale said:


> I think most folk here would understand the ideology of the FN & PAS as right-wing. You've been asked to evidence why you think Dieudonné's position is not right wing...and singularly failed to do so.



*Read.  The.  Fucking.  Thread.*


----------



## brogdale (Jan 12, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> *Read.  The.  Fucking.  Thread.*



I have, and I've seen you articulate your dissatisfaction with the L/R 'dichotomy, but I've not seen you actually substantiate your claim that Dieudonné's politics are not right wing.

Whether you like the 'dichotomy' or not is irrelevant, you said he ain't right wing. Justify that.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 12, 2014)

brogdale said:


> I have, and I've seen you articulate your dissatisfaction with the L/R 'dichotomy, but I've not seen you actually substantiate your claim that Dieudonné's politics are not right wing.
> 
> Whether you like the 'dichotomy' or not is irrelevant, you said he ain't right wing. Justify that.



If I don't accept that political positions can be classified as "Left-wing" or Right-wing," then clearly I cannot logically classify Dieudonne's political positions as "Right-wing."


----------



## brogdale (Jan 12, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> If I don't accept that political positions can be classified as "Left-wing" or Right-wing," then clearly I cannot logically classify Dieudonne's political positions as "Right-wing."



In which case, how, (and why), did you feel able to classify Dieudonne's political positions as _not_ "Right-wing"?

Your words...



> I've denied that he is right-wing.



You can't have it both ways; perhaps you'd like to justify your claim and explain what motivates you to say this?


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 12, 2014)

brogdale said:


> In which case, how, (and why), did you feel able to classify Dieudonne's political positions as _not_ "Right-wing"?
> 
> Your words...
> 
> ...



But I'm _not_ having it both ways.

I don't think politics can be classified as either "Left-wing" or "Right-wing."  I do not believe that "Left-wing" and "Right-wing" are real things.

Therefore, I do not believe Dieudonne's politics are "Right-wing." 

Now do I make myself clear?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 12, 2014)

Casually Red said:


> it took you a full hour to think up that stunning comeback after your foot got stuck in your big mouth
> 
> now fuck off you little orange cunt



Do me a favour and shove your sectarian shite up your doubtless capacious rectum, there's a good shitcunt.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 12, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Perhaps if my old employers had done the quenelle while talking about how Jews control Ukraine and run all the money laundering there it would have been an anti establishment gesture instead of corrupt racist scum trying to put everyone in their place. Maybe to avoid any discrimination claims they should be sure to do that in future if they want to start discussing the Jews while one is sitting right there having to listen to all their crap.



Hilarious on one level, as it's the fucking Russians who control most organised crime in Ukraine *and* have a head-lock on the Ukrainian economy.


----------



## brogdale (Jan 12, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> But I'm _not_ having it both ways.
> 
> I don't think politics can be classified as either "Left-wing" or "Right-wing."  I do not believe that "Left-wing" and "Right-wing" are real things.
> 
> ...



No. Unless you're prepared to outline your prefered ideological classification, and show how you would subsequently triangulate Dieudonne's politics you just sound like you're hiding behind some sort of ideological 'ignosticism'. 

It is not intellectually coherent to claim that someone, or their views are not right-wing, and later justify that by saying that, (IYO), there is not such thing as right wing.


----------



## Casually Red (Jan 12, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Do me a favour and shove your sectarian shite up your doubtless capacious rectum, there's a good shitcunt.



go and fuck yourself, 

hes not even a prod you daft cunt, he just wishes he was


----------



## equationgirl (Jan 12, 2014)

Casually Red said:


> go and fuck yourself,
> 
> hes not even a prod you daft cunt, he just wishes he was


That in no way excuses you from posting sectarian views and you know it.


----------



## Casually Red (Jan 12, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> That in no way excuses you from posting sectarian views and you know it.



and what sectarian view was that , exactly ?

ETA

bearing in mind hes the poster whos been giving other posters dogs abuse because of the particular church they send their kids to. Among other things .


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 12, 2014)

Casually Red said:


> go and fuck yourself,
> 
> hes not even a prod you daft cunt, he just wishes he was


He's not even a _paki _either.


----------



## goldenecitrone (Jan 12, 2014)

Casually Red said:


> and what sectarian view was that , exactly ?



You've shown yourself up to be a deeply unpleasant bigot. And you're too dumb to even realise why.


----------



## Casually Red (Jan 12, 2014)

goldenecitrone said:


> You've shown yourself up to be a deeply unpleasant bigot. And you're too dumb to even realise why.



what sectarian view  was that exactly ?


----------



## weepiper (Jan 12, 2014)

It's ok to post sectarian abuse if you're doing it_ ironically._ A la quenelle.


----------



## Casually Red (Jan 12, 2014)

weepiper said:


> It's ok to post sectarian abuse if you're doing it_ ironically._ A la quenelle.



what sectarian abuse was that, exactly ?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 12, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> I don't accept that political positions can be classified as "Left-wing" or Right-wing,"



That's a statement of your personal position; and is something different from saying that 'Dieudonne transcends the traditional left/right dichotomy'.

By your calculation, there is no such dichotomy. Therefore, no one fits within the traditional left/right dichotomy.

To state that someone or something transcends something, implies the existence of the thing transcended.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 12, 2014)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> That's a statement of your personal position; and is something different from saying that 'Dieudonne transcends the traditional left/right dichotomy'.
> 
> By your calculation, there is no such dichotomy. Therefore, no one fits within the traditional left/right dichotomy.
> 
> To state that someone or something transcends something, implies the existence of the thing transcended.


No it doesn't-  it implies it's transcendence. That's the point. At best it contains its _prior _existence. Not _ongoing_. But at an end. Because of being _transcended_.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 12, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> These are positions that are shared by the extreme left and the extreme right, but not by the middle.  Not unlike whatever crap Anelka is on about in fact.
> 
> I am beginning to suspect that the extremes have more in common with each other than either does with the middle.



This is an instance of defective logic.

Both the Communist and National Socialist parties in 30s Germany wanted to bring order to society, to get the unemployed working, to see everyone getting three square meals etc. In spite of the interests in common, they continued to inhabit different ends of the political spectrum - left and right.

The test of 'left' vs 'right' isn't interests; it's the methods contemplated by the groups/parties, to be used or available to be used, in bringing those interests/goals about.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 12, 2014)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> This is an instance of defective logic.
> 
> Both the Communist and National Socialist parties in 30s Germany wanted to bring order to society, to get the unemployed working, to see everyone getting three square meals etc. In spite of the interests in common, they continued to inhabit different ends of the political spectrum - left and right.
> 
> The test of 'left' vs 'right' isn't interests; it's the methods contemplated by the groups/parties, to be used or available to be used, in bringing those interests/goals about.


And that's as a daft a thing that he's argued - _but you actually think it._


----------



## equationgirl (Jan 12, 2014)

Casually Red said:


> and what sectarian view was that , exactly ?
> 
> ETA
> 
> bearing in mind hes the poster whos been giving other posters dogs abuse because of the particular church they send their kids to. Among other things .


When you called him a


Casually Red said:


> it took you a full hour to think up that stunning comeback after your foot got stuck in your big mouth
> 
> now fuck off you *little orange cunt*


----------



## brogdale (Jan 12, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> And that's as a daft a thing that he's argued - _but you actually think it._



In all honesty I'd say stated, rather than argued.

I've not gleaned any impression from his posting that he has cogently argued for any novel system of  ideological classification.


----------



## Casually Red (Jan 12, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> When you called him a




and what ? Orangism is a political position,extreme loyalism and religious intolerance,  not a religious faith. He was brought up a catholic so im plainly not insulting his religious background . Some of the views he expresses here are on a par with loyalism . Thats whats being criticised..insulted actually . Due to him yet again coming onto a thread, giving it the big one and abusing myself repeatedly .

Your accusations of sectarianism are therefore a load of hysterical bollocks. As are that other fucking wankers.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 12, 2014)

Casually Red said:


> and what ? Orangism is a political position,extreme loyalism and religious intolerance,  not a religious faith. He was brought up a catholic so im plainly not insulting his religious background . Some of the views he expresses here are on a par with loyalism . Thats whats being criticised..insulted actually . Due to him yet again coming onto a thread, giving it the big one and abusing myself repeatedly .
> 
> Your accusations of sectarianism are therefore a load of hysterical bollocks. As are that other fucking wankers.


Not much you can do now. Your politics exposed - your personal behaviour exposed. Pretty nasty on both counts.


----------



## equationgirl (Jan 12, 2014)

Casually Red said:


> and what ? Orangism is a political position,extreme loyalism and religious intolerance,  not a religious faith. He was brought up a catholic so im plainly not insulting his religious background . Some of the views he expresses here are on a par with loyalism . Thats whats being criticised..insulted actually . Due to him yet again coming onto a thread, giving it the big one and abusing myself repeatedly .
> 
> Your accusations of sectarianism are therefore a load of hysterical bollocks. As are that other fucking wankers.


Grow up. This is not a justification for you using sectarian abuse on this forum.

If you have a problem with him on another thread, then report him. Don't bring it onto another thread as mitigation for you posting sectarian abuse.


----------



## Casually Red (Jan 12, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> Grow up. This is not a justification for you using sectarian abuse on this forum.
> 
> If you have a problem with him on another thread, then report him. Don't bring it onto another thread as mitigation for you posting sectarian abuse.



i did not use sectarian abuse on this forum, now take yourself off and stop annoying my fucking head . If you dont mind . Youve pulled this shite before and youd bore the paint of a door arguing endlessly in circles with some disingenous point .

If you think I have then report it to the mods

Otherwise give over  . I couldnt be bothered listening to you
.


----------



## equationgirl (Jan 12, 2014)

Casually Red said:


> i did not use sectarian abuse on this forum, now take yourself off and stop annoying my fucking head . If you dont mind . Youve pulled this shite before and youd bore the paint of a door arguing endlessly in circles with some disingenous point .
> 
> If you think I have then report it to the mods
> 
> ...


You called someone a 'little orange cunt'. Are you denying this is sectarian abuse?


----------



## brogdale (Jan 12, 2014)

Casually Red said:


> i did not use sectarian abuse on this forum
> .



I _was _attempting to ignore this as it seems to be clogging up the thread somewhat, but that claim of yours does not really hold water, does it?

Calling someone an orange cunt would appear to be an almost perfectly literal exemplar of abuse that is sectarian in nature; to argue otherwise is absurd. I think you'd have gained a little more credibility in the thread If you'd have admitted as much and got on with the discussion in hand.


----------



## andysays (Jan 12, 2014)

Casually Red said:


> i did not use sectarian abuse on this forum, now take yourself off and stop annoying my fucking head . If you dont mind . Youve pulled this shite before and youd bore the paint of a door *arguing endlessly in circles with some disingenous point* .
> 
> If you think I have then report it to the mods
> 
> ...



I've stayed well out of this nonsense, but my irony detector has just gone into fucking overload with this one.

Arguing endlessly in circles with as many disingenous points as you can find really does seem to be your primary way of operating...


----------



## Casually Red (Jan 12, 2014)

brogdale said:


> I _was _attempting to ignore this as it seems to be clogging up the thread somewhat, but that claim of yours does not really hold water, does it?
> 
> Calling someone an orange cunt would appear to be an almost perfectly literal exemplar of abuse that is sectarian in nature; to argue otherwise is absurd. I think you'd have gained a little more credibility in the thread If you'd have admitted as much and got on with the discussion in hand.



Orangism isnt a religion, its a form of organised political bigotry . If I was referring to a protestant as such, because that person was a protestant, youd be right . But Im not, in either case, and therefore your wrong .


----------



## Casually Red (Jan 12, 2014)

anyone who has a problem, report it to the mods.


----------



## Casually Red (Jan 12, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> You called someone a 'little orange cunt'. Are you denying this is sectarian abuse?



Ive denied it about 4 times now, and told you to give over and what to do . Are you thick or something ?


----------



## equationgirl (Jan 12, 2014)

Casually Red said:


> Ive denied it about 4 times now, and told you to give over and what to do . Are you thick or something ?


I have reported your posts to the mods - there's none around right now.

I'm not thick, you clearly are if you think what you're posting is acceptable.


----------



## Casually Red (Jan 12, 2014)

tout


----------



## equationgirl (Jan 12, 2014)

Casually Red said:


> Orangism isnt a religion, its a form of organised political bigotry . If I was referring to a protestant as such, because that person was a protestant, youd be right . But Im not, in either case, and therefore your wrong .


It doesn't have to be a religion to qualify.


----------



## equationgirl (Jan 12, 2014)

Casually Red said:


> tout


You said that people should report you to the mods, yet now call them touts when then do? Really? You are pathetic.


----------



## Casually Red (Jan 12, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> It doesn't have to be a religion to qualify.



it doesnt have to be a religion to qualify as sectarian ??


----------



## andysays (Jan 12, 2014)

Casually Red said:


> tout


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 12, 2014)

Casually Red said:


> anyone who has a problem, report it to the mods.


I'm not a racist:






Bizarre level of argument consistently offered by this clown here - someone says they'e not something therefore they're not. Despite this not being logically, politically or historically true. What a weird and harmful way of looking at things.


----------



## Casually Red (Jan 12, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> You said that people should report you to the mods, yet now call them touts when then do? Really? You are pathetic.



off you go now and find someone else to inform on . shoo


----------



## equationgirl (Jan 12, 2014)

Casually Red said:


> it doesnt have to be a religion to qualify as sectarian ??


You claiming it's not a religion therefore it's not sectarian isn't right and you know it.


----------



## andysays (Jan 12, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> You said that people should report you to the mods, yet now call them touts when then do? Really? You are pathetic.





andysays said:


> Arguing endlessly in circles with as many disingenous points as you can find really does seem to be your primary his only way of operating...


----------



## equationgirl (Jan 12, 2014)

Casually Red said:


> off you go now and find someone else to inform on . shoo


Inform on? Oh fuck off casually red, and take your sectarian and anti-semitic bullshit with you.

These forums would be better off without you.


----------



## brogdale (Jan 12, 2014)

Casually Red said:


> Orangism isnt a religion, its a form of organised political bigotry . If I was referring to a protestant as such, because that person was a protestant, youd be right . But Im not, in either case, and therefore your wrong .



I think it's probable that you are arguing from the basis of a very much narrower interpretation of the word sectarian than some other posters on this thread.

It just seems so regretable, not to say ironic, that such personalised (sectarian) invective has derailed a thread exploring anti-zionism and anti-semitism.


----------



## Casually Red (Jan 12, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> You claiming it's not a religion therefore it's not sectarian isn't right and you know it.



do you even know what sectarian means ?


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 12, 2014)

'I called him a paki, but that's not racist because he's Indian'


----------



## Wilf (Jan 12, 2014)

It's come to something when you can't do a playful straight arm salute outside Anne Frank's house. 
Fuck me, at this rate the politically correct brigade will be saying you can't call someone a 'little orange cunt'.


----------



## Casually Red (Jan 12, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> Inform on? Oh fuck off casually red, and take your sectarian and anti-semitic bullshit with you.
> 
> These forums would be better off without you.



theres bound to be someone in your street without a tv license or a lodger theyre not admitting to...off you go and tell on them supergrass


----------



## Favelado (Jan 12, 2014)

Casually Red said:


> theres bound to be someone in your street without a tv license or a lodger theyre not admitting to...off you go and tell on them supergrass




Pack it in the for the day maybe now. There's a good lad.


----------



## revol68 (Jan 12, 2014)

Casually Red said:


> and what sectarian view was that , exactly ?
> 
> ETA
> 
> bearing in mind hes the poster whos been giving other posters dogs abuse because of the particular church they send their kids to. Among other things .



I called him out on the justifying signing his kid up to the catholic church on the basis of it providing a form of cultural identity. There is nothing sectarian about that, especially as I was raised catholic myself.

You on the other hand are throwing around orange bastard as an insult, you are not a protestant but rather someone who has consistently cheered  on armed groups who have carried out sectarian atrocities against protestants.

Also I was raised catholic but as we know in Ireland it's not simply a matter of faith but an almost racial category and in that case I'm actually a half a jaffa.


----------



## andysays (Jan 12, 2014)

Wilf said:


> It's come to something when you can't do a playful straight arm salute outside Anne Frank's house.
> Fuck me, at this rate the politically correct brigade will be saying you can't call someone a 'little orange cunt'.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 12, 2014)

Is someone really a grass or a tout if tgey report posts on the internet?


----------



## andysays (Jan 12, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Is someone really a grass or a tout if tgey report posts on the internet?



Only if it's one of Casually Red's posts, obvs...


----------



## revol68 (Jan 12, 2014)

Casually Red said:


> Orangism isnt a religion, its a form of organised political bigotry . If I was referring to a protestant as such, because that person was a protestant, youd be right . But Im not, in either case, and therefore your wrong .



Yes and calling a muslim a Taliban cunt because they disagreed with you over British foreign policy would not be racist because the Taliban is a political grouping and not a race...

Orange cunt/bastard etc is a standard sectarian insult akin to Fenian, of course I doubt you'd accept fenian as a non sectarian insult because it is the name of a historical violent irish nationalist movement.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 12, 2014)

andysays said:


> Only if it's one of Casually Red's posts, obvs...




Its the internet, its not like equationgirl's running down the local cop shop to report people smoking weed


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 12, 2014)

Casually Red said:


> theres bound to be someone in your street without a tv license or a lodger theyre not admitting to...off you go and tell on them supergrass






> i did not use sectarian abuse on this forum, now take yourself off and stop annoying my fucking head . If you dont mind . Youve pulled this shite before and youd bore the paint of a door arguing endlessly in circles with some disingenous point .
> 
> *If you think I have then report it to the mods*
> 
> Otherwise give over .


----------



## Favelado (Jan 12, 2014)

equationgirl told the Benefits Hotline that I did 2 hours' work cash-in-hand


----------



## andysays (Jan 12, 2014)

Just wait, now's she's got a taste for it she'll be on the phone to Special Branch in the morning, singing like a canary


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 12, 2014)

Favelado said:


> equationgirl told the Benefits Hotline that I did 2 hours' work cash-in-hand



Yeah, that's clearly the same thing


----------



## Casually Red (Jan 12, 2014)

revol68 said:


> I called him out on the justifying signing his kid up to the catholic church on the basis of it providing a form of cultural identity. There is nothing sectarian about that, especially as I was raised catholic myself.
> 
> You on the other hand are throwing around orange bastard as an insult, you are not a protestant but rather someone who has consistently cheered  on armed groups who have carried out sectarian atrocities against protestants.
> 
> Also I was raised catholic but as we know in Ireland it's not simply a matter of faith but an almost racial category and in that case I'm actually a half a jaffa.



you insulted him over  his kids because theyre being raised as catholics, youve openly insulted their identity. Thats bigotry, no matter how much you personally despise that identity its theirs and the onus is on you to either respect that or stay quiet about it , not abuse it . Thats what orangemen do and that along with your ingrained unionism is why I called you an orange cunt . While others have referred to you as Orange lil .

And now your getting all prissy and claiming to be half this and half that to play a victim card . Ive never cheered on a sectarian atrocity in my life, your a lying cunt . And Ive made clear numerous times my belief that all armed groups should call it a day . Unlike you though I havent jeered over their deaths or imprisonment and never will.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 12, 2014)

You've ended this thread with your anti-semitism exposed, your sectarianism exposed, where you brand of victim nationalism leads being exposed, and your personal lack of honesty exposed.


----------



## Casually Red (Jan 12, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> You claiming it's not a religion therefore it's not sectarian isn't right and you know it.



its not, and orangemen are a bunch of cunts


----------



## weepiper (Jan 12, 2014)

Casually Red said:


> you insulted him over  his kids because theyre being raised as catholics, youve openly insulted their identity. Thats bigotry, no matter how much you personally despise that identity its theirs and the onus is on you to either respect that or stay quiet about it , not abuse it . Thats what orangemen do and that along with your ingrained unionism is why I called you an orange cunt . While others have referred to you as Orange lil .
> 
> And now your getting all prissy and claiming to be half this and half that to play a victim card . Ive never cheered on a sectarian atrocity in my life, your a lying cunt . And Ive made clear numerous times my belief that all armed groups should call it a day . Unlike you though I havent jeered over their deaths or imprisonment and never will.


You're calling him the equivalent of an Uncle Tom or Coconut. There's other fora where that sort of shit is accepted, why don't you fuck off to one of them.


----------



## Casually Red (Jan 12, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Its the internet, its not like equationgirl's running down the local cop shop to report people smoking weed



how do you know ? shes probably reporting the corner shop for selling cigarettes to 15 years olds, and telling their mums


----------



## Casually Red (Jan 12, 2014)

weepiper said:


> You're calling him the equivalent of an Uncle Tom or Coconut. There's other fora where that sort of shit is accepted, why don't you fuck off to one of them.



I was calling him a unionist bigot because he is and hes proved it.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 12, 2014)

Casually Red said:


> how do you know ? shes probably reporting the corner shop for selling cigarettes to 15 years olds, and telling their mums



You invited her to report you if she thought you were being sectarian.

She evidently did; so she evidently did.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 12, 2014)

Casually Red said:


> how do you know ? shes probably reporting the corner shop for selling cigarettes to 15 years olds, and telling their mums


Weird juxtaposition of a question about how would someone know something followed by an aggressive extrapolation from fuck all.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 12, 2014)

Even sitting here in Canada, without all the background knowledge of the inner workings of NI - 'orange cunt' sounded pretty bad.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 12, 2014)

Is there any active thread not infected with this dwyer/casual observer shit right now btw?


----------



## Casually Red (Jan 12, 2014)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> You invited her to report you if she thought you were being sectarian.
> 
> She evidently did; so she evidently did.



I know she did, thats why I called her a supergrass


----------



## weepiper (Jan 12, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Is there any active thread not infected with this dwyer/casual observer shit right now tw?


none of the interesting ones apart fromthe safe knobbing and sobbing ones.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 12, 2014)

Casually Red said:


> I know she did, thats why I called her a supergrass



But if you challenge someone to do it and they do.... how can you call them a grass?

You invited them to.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 12, 2014)

Casually Red said:


> I know she did, thats why I called her a supergrass


Playing out the wars before you were born that you fantasise about happening again - even more pathetic.


----------



## revol68 (Jan 12, 2014)

pointing out the hypocrisy of LiamO giving it stacks on here about his lefty politics then signed his kids up for a disgusting institution like the Roman Catholic church is not like just insulting someone over them happening to be catholic. LiamO has chosen that identity for his kids on the basis of a reactionary desire to retain some Oirishness, that is what I was criticising, if his kids were baptised cos of his partner or pressure from grandparents or whatever I'd have nothing to say about it, I know loads of people who've went through the baptism guff as a nominal nod to others/peace offering.

If I signed my kids into the Roman Catholic church or even I dunno the Orange Order I'd expect to get dogs abuse and I couldn't hide behind bullshit like "don't talk about my kids" when the discussion is not about my kids but my own hypocrisy.

Anyway you are taking this way off topic.

So in summary you think the Quenelle is not anti semitic, just as orange cunt is not a sectarian insult.


----------



## Casually Red (Jan 12, 2014)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> But if you challenge someone to do it and they do.... how can you call them a grass?
> 
> You invited them to.



I invited them to be a grass and they grassed, ergo shes a grass . At least she had the balls to own up to grassing mind unlike the other ones.


----------



## Casually Red (Jan 12, 2014)

revol68 said:


> pointing out the hypocrisy of LiamO giving it stacks on here about his lefty politics then signed his kids up for a disgusting institution like the Roman Catholic church is not like just insulting someone over them happening to be catholic. LiamO has chosen that identity for his kids on the basis of a reactionary desire to retain some Oirishness, that is what I was criticising, if his kids were baptised cos of his partner or pressure from grandparents or whatever I'd have nothing to say about it, I know loads of people who've went through the baptism guff as a nominal nod to others/peace offering.
> 
> If I signed my kids into the Roman Catholic church or even I dunno the Orange Order I'd expect to get dogs abuse and I couldn't hide behind bullshit like "don't talk about my kids" when the discussion is not about my kids but my own hypocrisy.
> 
> ...



take yourself of you biggotted wee shite


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 12, 2014)

Casually Red said:


> I invited them to be a grass and they grassed, ergo shes a grass . At least she had the balls to own up to grassing mind unlike the other ones.


What, the dolphins?


----------



## Casually Red (Jan 12, 2014)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> Even sitting here in Canada, without all the background knowledge of the inner workings of NI - 'orange cunt' sounded pretty bad.



do they do nice insults in Canada or something ?


----------



## revol68 (Jan 12, 2014)

Casually Red said:


> I invited them to be a grass and they grassed, ergo shes a grass . At least she had the balls to own up to grassing mind unlike the other ones.



I bet you get a right wee chub on every time you type "grass", imagining gruff men with balaclavas kicking in backdoors.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 12, 2014)

Casually Red said:


> I invited them to be a grass and they grassed, ergo shes a grass . At least she had the balls to own up to grassing mind unlike the other ones.



No, you were saying, put your money where your mouth is or else shut up.

So she did. Now you're calling her names.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 12, 2014)

Casually Red said:


> do they do nice insults in Canada or something ?



They do all kinds; which means we can distinguish the nice ones from the not nice ones.


----------



## manny-p (Jan 12, 2014)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> No, you were saying, put your money where your mouth is or else shut up.
> 
> So she did. Now you're calling her names.


This is like a primary school or something.


----------



## Casually Red (Jan 12, 2014)

manny-p said:


> This is like a primary school or something.



yeah, complete with someone running to teacher


----------



## Wilf (Jan 12, 2014)

Casually Red said:


> I invited them to be a grass and they grassed, ergo shes a grass . At least she had the balls to own up to grassing mind unlike the other ones.



No, what you actually said was _you weren't going to deal with the point_, so report it to the mods for them to decide:



> i did not use sectarian abuse on this forum, now take yourself off and stop annoying my fucking head . If you dont mind . Youve pulled this shite before and youd bore the paint of a door arguing endlessly in circles with some disingenous point .
> If you think I have then report it to the mods
> Otherwise give over . I couldnt be bothered listening to you


----------



## Casually Red (Jan 12, 2014)

Wilf said:


> No, what you actually said was _you weren't going to deal with the point_, so report it to the mods for them to decide:



I had dealt with the point, I was finished dealing with it . Grassings grassing .


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 12, 2014)

Some pathetic melt-downs, some pathetic exposures over the years on here - this combines the two.


----------



## Casually Red (Jan 12, 2014)

anyways, I can see whats going here . A few snidey elements are blatantly trying to get me banned hence piling in and all the rest . Ill leave yis all to it . Best of British etc


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 12, 2014)

Casually Red said:


> anyways, I can see whats going here . A few snidey elements are blatantly trying to get me banned hence piling in and all the rest . Ill leave yis all to it . Best of British etc


The dolphins again. _What a twat._ Not a joke internet one either.


----------



## revol68 (Jan 12, 2014)

Casually Red said:


> I had dealt with the point, I was finished dealing with it . Grassings grassing .



fap fap fap


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 12, 2014)

Casually Red said:


> anyways, I can see whats going here . A few snidey elements are blatantly trying to get me banned hence piling in and all the rest . Ill leave yis all to it . Best of British etc



I don't want to see you banned. Just seemed you went over the line, and people are pointing it out.

I think an apology would be all that's needed. No harm in admitting a mistake.


----------



## killer b (Jan 12, 2014)

Casually Red said:


> anyways, I can see whats going here . A few snidey elements are blatantly trying to get me banned hence piling in and all the rest . Ill leave yis all to it . Best of British etc


come down from your cross.


----------



## equationgirl (Jan 12, 2014)

Favelado said:


> equationgirl told the Benefits Hotline that I did 2 hours' work cash-in-hand


You take that back! I did not!

I wouldn't give the DWP anything.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 12, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> You take that back! I did not!
> 
> I wouldn't give the DWP anything.



It was a joke


----------



## equationgirl (Jan 12, 2014)

Casually Red maybe if you didn't repeatedly post breaching the FAQs and sectarian shite then a banning wouldn't happen. You only have yourself to blame with all this.


----------



## equationgirl (Jan 12, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> It was a joke


*runs to Special Branch*


----------



## goldenecitrone (Jan 12, 2014)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> I think an apology would be all that's needed. No harm in admitting a mistake.



Indeed. But that would take a bit of grace and a modicum of self-awareness.


----------



## manny-p (Jan 12, 2014)

Casually Red said:


> yeah, complete with someone running to teacher


You are acting like the class clown tbf.


----------



## revol68 (Jan 12, 2014)

he doesn't need to apologise, it's just funny watching the daft twat flap about in the wind.

I'm still baffled at his dogged determination to maintain the quenelle isn't anti semitic.


----------



## equationgirl (Jan 12, 2014)

Casually Red said:


> I know she did, thats why I called her a supergrass


Supergrass LOL


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 12, 2014)

revol68 said:


> he doesn't need to apologise, it's just funny watching the daft twat flap about in the wind.
> 
> I'm still baffled at his dogged determination to maintain the quenelle isn't anti semitic.


You can't be? It's of a piece with his right-wing anti-imperialism. It's a brother to O' Duffy and Spain.


----------



## revol68 (Jan 12, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> You can't be? It's of a piece with his right-wing anti-imperialism. It's a brother to O' Duffy and Spain.



Well yeah I can see the thread, it's just that anti semitism seems quite superfluous to Irish nationalism, he could concede this point and still maintain his dreadful politics. Clinging to this shit is only bringing his house of cards down upon itself.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 12, 2014)

revol68 said:


> he doesn't need to apologise, it's just funny watching the daft twat flap about in the wind.
> 
> I'm still baffled at his dogged determination to maintain the quenelle isn't anti semitic.



Phil's dogged determination baffles me more.


----------



## Wilf (Jan 12, 2014)

Casually Red said:


> I had dealt with the point, I was finished dealing with it . Grassings grassing .


You don't seem to have any gradations on this one do you?  Taking up an invitation to report a post = the full Christopher Black.  What's next, pointing out that someone did a sneaky fart in company - on a par with Kevin McGrady?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 12, 2014)

fuh quenelle something of a meltdown here


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 12, 2014)

Wilf said:


> You don't seem to have any gradations on this one do you?  Taking up an invitation to report a post = the full Christopher Black.  What's next, pointing out that someone did a sneaky fart in company - on a par with Kevin McGrady?


Kkknowingly doing something anti-semitic = comrade.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 12, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> *runs to Special Branch*





goldenecitrone said:


> What about this example, outside a Jewish school where three children and a rabbi were shot dead?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



As I've said a few times, the edl for hipsters, just looking at his clothes he'd fit right in here



When I say this I'm dead serious BTW. I'm not joking. I'd imagine a lot of the people doing this stuff think of themselves as 'alternative' are well educated, wouldn't be seen dead reading newspapers like the sun and don't fit the stereotypical profile of a far-righter whatever that is


----------



## LiamO (Jan 12, 2014)

Just passing through and definitely not staying...

revol68 seems to have an unhealthy fixation with my children and perpetuating his downright, abject and oft-repeated lies. 

Even though I was 100% sure, I just did a quick search to see if I could find a single reference to either a) baptism; and b) reasons for same.

Guess what? Could not find a single one. Ever.

I _have_ posted in the past about the reasons for my wife and I sending our children to the schools they attend: the choices we had; the reasons why we made the choices we did... and those we might have preferred to be able to make in an ideal world. But seeing as neither 'baptism' nor actually being a Catholic is a pre-requisite for attending a Catholic school here, whether or not they had been baptised is not an issue. 

So anyway, I couldn't find a single reference I have made to either our kids being baptised or what the reasons for this might/might not be... but I did find these illuminating quotes from Revol himself though... which put his affected outrage at 'sectarianism' or even the language of sectarianism into perspective. 




revol68 said:


> a rag tag collection of catholic cunts!





revol68 said:


> fenian bog trotting cunt.



I would also note that _both_ Revol and Casually Red share the honour of attending State schools in norn iron where they were the token Taigs amongst several hundred loyalists - a bit like being the only black kid in a 1960's Alabama White school - and spent their entire schooldays being abused, vilified and physically attacked as a direct consequence.

Maybe we should have inflicted the same on our kids, just to prove some right-on credentials?


----------



## cesare (Jan 12, 2014)

Fucks sake.


----------



## brogdale (Jan 12, 2014)

Spoiler



most of the last 4 pages


----------



## Humberto (Jan 12, 2014)

What? You can't even call someone a 'fenian bog trotting cunt' without being accused of being sectarian?

Surely a good well intentioned worker is a comrade not a fenian bogtrotter or orange wanker etc.

This is what the ruling class loves to do.

There I've just solved the Catholics and Proddie impasse. 

Neither side can win but both can lose. Generation after generation. Not that I see things being straightened out anytime soon.

Just enjoy your life and stop hating others? I may be a cunt of some description but not a 'fenian bog trotting cunt' or an 'orange cunt' at least. I definately don't want to be to one of those cunts.


----------



## revol68 (Jan 13, 2014)

LiamO said:


> Just passing through and definitely not staying...
> 
> revol68 seems to have an unhealthy fixation with my children and perpetuating his downright, abject and oft-repeated lies.
> 
> ...



I can use taig or hun or whatever I want cos I'm a dolly mixture.
Casually should refrain from using orange cunt as an insult as he's actually a bigot.


I brought up you baptising your kid once a while ago and Casually has jumped on it and keeps bringing it up.
Since I don't know anything about you except what you post on here I can guarantee you that you mentioned your kids being raised catholic on here and you said it was because you wanted them to have a centered identity or some such shit, even if you disagreed with it as an institution, it was on a thread where I was ranting about catholicism and you gave this patronising talk about how you too reacted against the church in your youth but had come to see it in a different light blah blah.

And actually I didn't go to aschool with several hundred loyalists, I went to school with several hundred protestants, some were loyalists, some unionist and a lot of others who didn't give a shit about it, nor were my school days filled with sectarian abuse, either verbal or physical, it was rarely an issue and indeed I made a lot of great friends there, infact I'm glad I went to a mostly protestant school.

And no it was nothing like being the only black kid at a white school in Alabama, as much as some chucky wankers would like to imagine the experience of northern catholics gets anywhere close to that of blacks in america.


----------



## Humberto (Jan 13, 2014)

revol68 said:


> I can use taig or hun or whatever I want cos I'm a dolly mixture.
> Casually should refrain from using orange cunt as an insult as he's actually a bigot.



'Fenian bog trotting cunt' is not bigoted? Did you say that? It sounds bigoted to me.


----------



## revol68 (Jan 13, 2014)

Humberto said:


> 'Fenian bog trotting cunt' is not bigoted? Did you say that? It sounds bigoted to me.



Of course it is bigoted, that's the whole fun, anyway I can say cause I am one.

I don't have a problem with sectarian banter because they are plainly just daft eg I find N_igma's drunken rants about hun bastards pretty amusing, nor do I even take particular insult at Casually calling me an orange cunt but I do take issue with his pathetic claim that it isn't a sectarian insult.


----------



## Humberto (Jan 13, 2014)

revol68 said:


> Of course it is bigoted, that's the whole fun, anyway I can say cause I am one.
> 
> I don't have a problem with sectarian banter because they are plainly just daft eg I find N_igma's drunken rants about hun bastards pretty amusing, nor do I even take particular insult at Casually calling me an orange cunt but I do take issue with his pathetic claim that it isn't a sectarian insult.



Its not fun. Its not banter. You just pretend it is. Ridiculous defence. CR called you an 'Orange Cunt' but you called him 'Bog trotting fenian cunt'. I'm fucked if I can see the funny side.


----------



## revol68 (Jan 13, 2014)

Humberto said:


> Its not fun. Its not banter. You just pretend it is. Ridiculous defence. CR called you an 'Orange Cunt' but you called him 'Bog trotting fenian cunt'. I'm fucked if I can see the funny side.



because I am one, you daft fuck.


----------



## Humberto (Jan 13, 2014)

Fuck off. I am 'one'. Well done.


----------



## revol68 (Jan 13, 2014)

Anyway I'm not trying to say fenian isn't a sectarian insult, it is. Casually won't accept Orange cunt is a sectarian insult because as a catholic nationalist it's a bit iffy for him to be throwing it about. I on the other hand as a half and half get to deploy all the sectarian insults I want.


----------



## revol68 (Jan 13, 2014)

Humberto said:


> Fuck off. I am 'one'. Well done.



fuck off dickhead, don't need some cunt in Liverpool policing the matter.


----------



## Humberto (Jan 13, 2014)

revol68 said:


> fuck off dickhead, don't need some cunt in Liverpool policing the matter.



Well I didn't call anyone a 'bog trotting Irish cunt'. You did though you pathetic bigot.


----------



## revol68 (Jan 13, 2014)

Humberto said:


> Well I didn't call anyone a 'bog trotting Irish cunt'. You did though you pathetic bigot.



who am I bigoted against, irish catholics?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 13, 2014)

Humberto said:


> Well I didn't call anyone a 'bog trotting Irish cunt'. You did though you pathetic bigot.



What happened to that chill Christian ethos you display on other threads?


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 13, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> No it doesn't-  it implies it's transcendence. That's the point. At best it contains its _prior _existence. Not _ongoing_. But at an end. Because of being _transcended_.



Say what you like about Buthersapron (and I've said most of it), he ain't stupid.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 13, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> You can't be? It's of a piece with his* right-wing* anti-imperialism. It's a brother to O' Duffy and Spain.



Now this really does prove that the term has lost all meaning.

If you call Casually Red "right-wing" you might as well say the same of Lenin.

Which come to think of it you probably do.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 13, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Is there any active thread not infected with this dwyer/casual observer shit right now btw?



This isn't a platform for your opinions and those of your mates/followers.

You should welcome the chance of arguing with those who differ from you.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 13, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Say what you like about Buthersapron (and I've said most of it), he ain't stupid.



I don't think I'd exactly call him stupid; but I'd call him inaccurate in what you've quoted.

Consider the definition of 'transcend':



> tran·scend  (tr
> 
> 
> 
> ...





> *tran·scend*
> /trænˈsɛnd/   excel.
> 1.
> to rise above or go beyond; overpass; exceed: to transcend the limits of thought; kindness transcends courtesy.
> ...



It's incorrect to say that the concept of transcendence presupposes the cessation of the prior state of affairs. Better to say the prior state is risen above, left behind. But the thing left behind or risen above, can continue to exist.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 13, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> You should welcome the chance of arguing with those who differ from you.




What a concept!


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 13, 2014)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> What a concept!



It's something that Brits, for all their passionate political posturing, just don't get: the importance of free speech.

They usually think it's just some American wishy-washy liberal guff, or that giving a platform to fascists is somehow pro-fascist etc.

It's because they don't read any American political theory (watch them scoff at the very idea) and thus do not understand that _sunlight is the best disinfectant._


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 13, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> It's something that Brits, for all their passionate political posturing, just don't get: the importance of free speech.
> 
> They usually think it's just some American wishy-washy liberal guff, or that giving a platform to fascists is somehow pro-fascist etc.
> 
> It's because they don't read any American political theory (watch them scoff at the very idea) and thus do not understand that _sunlight is the best disinfectant._



Couldn't it enter via the back door, as it were, as a result of reading French political theory?


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 13, 2014)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> It's incorrect to say that the concept of transcendence presupposes the cessation of the prior state of affairs. Better to say the prior state is risen above, left behind. But the thing left behind or risen above, can continue to exist.



Yes.  But it does not _necessarily _continue to exist.

Therefore I am right to say that Left/Right is both an obsolete dichotomy and one that has been transcended.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 13, 2014)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> Couldn't it enter via the back door, as it were, as a result of reading French political theory?



The French are even worse.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 13, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Yes.  But it does not _necessarily _cease to exist.
> 
> Therefore I am right to say that Left/Right is both an obsolete dichotomy and one that has been transcended.



I thought you said that it has always been a false dichotomy.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 13, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> The French are even worse.



I always thought that Rousseau was important to much of the foundational American political theory.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 13, 2014)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> I always thought that Rousseau was important to much of the foundational American political theory.



Rousseau was Swiss.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 13, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Rousseau was Swiss.



Franco-Swiss


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 13, 2014)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> I thought you said that it has always been a false dichotomy.



Did you really?

That's very interesting.  Because I most certainly said no such thing.

On the contrary, I noted that the Left/Right dichotomy was appropriate to the C19th and early C20th.

But it is no longer adequate to describe the politics of the C21st, as the example of Dieudonne proves.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 13, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Did you really?
> 
> That's very interesting.  Because I most certainly said no such thing.
> 
> ...



I think it was overly simplistic, even in the 20th century.


----------



## LiamO (Jan 13, 2014)

Humberto said:


> CR called you an 'Orange Cunt' but you called him 'Bog trotting fenian cunt'. I'm fucked if I can see the funny side.



Actually it was the 1981 Hunger-Strikers whom Revol was referring to, specifically using sectarian terms to denigrate (and de-politicise) Republicanism.

Now I have seen Ariel Sharon called all sorts of things, from 'war criminal' to 'murderer' to 'cunt' on these boards in the last few days. I have also used these words to describe him myself.

However, if anyone called him one of a 





> 'rag-tag collection of _Jewish_ cunts'


 or a 





> 'hook-nosed Yid cunt'


 they would get very short shrift indeed on here.

Also, revol68 , given that you know CR is _well aware_ that you were raised a catholic, you _know_ that him calling you an 'orange cunt' refers to your cultish brand of anarcho-unionism, not your perceived religious label. You _know_ this. You are well aware of this. (Having said that CR should have a little more cop-on than to use the phrase, knowing how it would be perceived on here).

You, of all people, _know_ that this can be used as a political as well as a religious label. I have absolutely no doubt that you and your tiny anarcho-unionist grouplet will have used this very phrase yourself - in a political fashion - to distance yourself from the more knuckle-dragging elements of Orange-ism.

But don't let that stop you playing the victim when other posters, unaware of these nuances, perhaps understandably interpret the phrase as being a sectarian one.

I'm done here.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 13, 2014)

revol68 said:


> because I am one, you daft fuck.


i thought you'd spent a great deal of time vilifying republicans - 'fenians' - here. nowyou say you are one. aren't you slightly er conflicted?


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 13, 2014)

on my way to work today saw some dubstep act called "zyklon sound" advertised on a poster  

are they just morons or something more sinister?


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 13, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> are they just morons or something more sinister?



It's probably Martin Bormann.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 13, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> It's probably Martin Bormann.


 
what do you reckon tho?

is it all right for them to call themselves that now that it's 70 years or so after the war? this is a serious question btw, because I don't know, my gut feeling is that it's not all right at all, but other people might think that it's now perfectly fine. Or are they dickheads or something worse?


----------



## brogdale (Jan 13, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> what do you reckon tho?
> 
> is it all right for them to call themselves that now that it's 70 years or so after the war? this is a serious question btw, because I don't know, my gut feeling is that it's not all right at all, but other people might think that it's now perfectly fine. Or are they dickheads or something worse?


 
In the absence of any laws prohibiting reference to the Holocaust etc. they can pretty much do what they like. I would imagine it's done for effect, but then again they might be Nazi sympathisiers? Whatever, it marks them out as a bunch of wankers to be avoided.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 13, 2014)

brogdale said:


> In the absence of any laws prohibiting reference to the Holocaust etc. they can pretty much do what they like. I would imagine it's done for effect, but then again they might be Nazi sympathisiers? Whatever, it marks them out as a bunch of wankers to be avoided.


 
cheers, good to know im not just being sensitive for no reason.


----------



## elbows (Jan 13, 2014)

Well the Zyklon trainers didn't go down well just over a decade ago: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2222783.stm


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 13, 2014)

elbows said:


> Well the Zyklon trainers didn't go down well just over a decade ago: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2222783.stm


----------



## elbows (Jan 13, 2014)

Although it does seem it took several years for people to notice that one.

As for Zyklon sound....

https://www.facebook.com/zyklonsound


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 13, 2014)

can't click on facebook, i'm at work, will look when im at home


----------



## Spymaster (Jan 13, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> cheers, good to know im not just being sensitive for no reason.



Of course you're not.

Googling them doesn't come up with anything particularly interesting although there is a Norwegian band called Zyklon who insist that their name is a play on the word "cylone" which is apparently spelled "syclon" in Norwegian. This is despite the fact that one of their members participated in another project called Zyklon-B.

So another bunch of cunts.


----------



## fishfinger (Jan 13, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> cheers, good to know im not just being sensitive for no reason.


Zyklon Sound appears to be one man, Jack Rayner. Don't know if that helps you.


----------



## Spymaster (Jan 13, 2014)

That said, given my experience of todays yoofs understanding of history, if these dubstep chaps are under 25 it would surprise me if they think it's a science fiction character.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 13, 2014)

fishfinger said:


> Zyklon Sound appears to be one man, Jack Rayner. Don't know if that helps you.


 
i'll look him up when i get home, i don't want to be visiting any dodgy websites here.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 13, 2014)

Spymaster said:


> That said, given my experience of todays yoofs understanding of history, if these dubstep chaps are under 25 it would surprise me if they think it's a science fiction character.


 
Theres no way you could call yourself that, put on gigs at relatively big venues and not have been told at some point is there?

Mind you maybe there is? Maybe they don't actually know?


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 13, 2014)

Esp when he put the case for banning the BNP at a debate at his private school only 5 years ago.


----------



## Spymaster (Jan 13, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Theres no way you could call yourself that, put on gigs at relatively big venues and not have been told at some point is there?



You wouldn't have thought so would you?


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 13, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Esp when he put the case for banning the BNP at a debate at his private school only 5 years ago.


 
WTF


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 13, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> WTF


It's amazing what you can find out there.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 13, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> It's amazing what you can find out there.


 
then why did he think it was all right to call his band that???


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 13, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> then why did he think it was all right to call his band that???


I'd guess that he's trying to sound heavy and serious.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 13, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> i'll look him up when i get home, i don't want to be visiting any dodgy websites here.


too late!  you've been here!


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 13, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> I'd guess that he's trying to sound heavy and serious.


must try harder


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 13, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> I'd guess that he's trying to sound heavy and serious.


----------



## Favelado (Jan 13, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> then why did he think it was all right to call his band that???



Joy Division wasn't such a great idea for a band name either.


----------



## Thaw (Jan 13, 2014)

Is it any worse than 'Joy Division'? Or punks wearing swastikas?

Edit: Ah, beat me to it!


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 13, 2014)

Favelado said:


> Joy Division wasn't such a great idea for a band name either.


 
Wasn't there some dodgy rumours about them at the start though or am i thinking of someone else?


----------



## elbows (Jan 13, 2014)

Like I said, it appears it took several years for anyone to take offence at the name of those trainers.

Is Zyklon still the widely used German word for cyclone?


----------



## Spymaster (Jan 13, 2014)

DrunkPushkin said:


> Is it any worse than 'Joy Division'? Or punks wearing swastikas?



No. It's equally shit.


----------



## Favelado (Jan 13, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Wasn't there some dodgy rumours about them at the start though or am i thinking of someone else?



Sure were.



> The packaging of _An Ideal for Living_—which featured a drawing of a Hitler Youth member on the cover—coupled with the nature of the band's name, fuelled speculation about their political affiliations.[30] While Hook and Sumner later admitted to being intrigued by fascism at the time, Morris insisted that the group's obsession with Nazi imagery came from a desire to keep memories of the sacrifices of their parents and grandparents during World War II alive. He argued that accusations of neo-Nazi sympathies merely provoked the band "to keep on doing it, because that's the kind of people we are".[18]



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joy_division


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 13, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Wasn't there some dodgy rumours about them at the start though or am i thinking of someone else?


Yes, Bernie was the oldest living member of the Hitler Youth. And a Hess groupie.


----------



## goldenecitrone (Jan 13, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> And a Hess groupie.


 
Along with the Kemp brothers.


----------



## Favelado (Jan 13, 2014)

Barney shouted that Hess thing at a gig once. There's some dodgy imagery in JD stuff. Was he a Hess _groupie_? I fucking hope not or I chose my hero badly aged 15.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 13, 2014)

Favelado said:


> Barney shouted that Hess thing at a gig once. There's some dodgy imagery in JD stuff. Was he a Hess _groupie_? I fucking hope not or I chose my hero badly aged 15.


I think he was just being a bit of a dick for a while.


----------



## treelover (Jan 13, 2014)

fishfinger said:


> Zyklon Sound appears to be one man, Jack Rayner. Don't know if that helps you.



Posting in gangsta/urban speak, makes you laugh, even if the name doesn't.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 13, 2014)

Casually Red said:


> go and fuck yourself,
> 
> hes not even a prod you daft cunt, he just wishes he was



You spew sectarianism (and don't fucking haver about whether he's catholic or not, that's immaterial to what you're accusing him of, you piss-scented muppet), and *I'm* the daft cunt?

Grow up, you tedious reactionary twat.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 13, 2014)

Casually Red said:


> and what sectarian view was that , exactly ?
> 
> ETA
> 
> bearing in mind hes the poster whos been giving other posters dogs abuse because of the particular church they send their kids to. Among other things .



Which has precisely nothing to do with calling him an "orange cunt".

Muddy the waters all you can.  The fact is you're still a sectarian at the end of the day.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 13, 2014)

Casually Red said:


> and what ? Orangism is a political position,extreme loyalism and religious intolerance,  not a religious faith. He was brought up a catholic so im plainly not insulting his religious background . Some of the views he expresses here are on a par with loyalism . Thats whats being criticised..insulted actually . Due to him yet again coming onto a thread, giving it the big one and abusing myself repeatedly .
> 
> Your accusations of sectarianism are therefore a load of hysterical bollocks. As are that other fucking wankers.



It's almost beautiful, how your attempts to escape the consequences of your own stupidity appear to be wrapping around your throat every time you open your gob.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 13, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Not much you can do now. Your politics exposed - your personal behaviour exposed. Pretty nasty on both counts.



Looks like a turd, smells like a turd, acts like a turd.
Gotta be a turd.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 13, 2014)

Casually Red said:


> tout



Pathetic, but just the sort of shite you'd come out with.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 13, 2014)

Favelado said:


> Sure were.
> 
> 
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joy_division


 
bit like wumpscut then I think


treelover said:


> Posting in gangsta/urban speak, makes you laugh, even if the name doesn't.


 
I'll have a closer look when i get home but I had a look on my phone, he appears to be some part of some forum where they were complaining about feminists etc


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 13, 2014)

andysays said:


> I've stayed well out of this nonsense, but my irony detector has just gone into fucking overload with this one.
> 
> Arguing endlessly in circles with as many disingenous points as you can find really does seem to be your primary way of operating...



Best way of avoiding the consequences of his own stupidity, though.


----------



## rekil (Jan 13, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> then why did he think it was all right to call his band that???


Arguing for a ban on the BNP in a school debate, especially a posh school debate, doesn't necessarily mean he's opposed to them.  My guess is that it's a straightforward attempt to create some controversy.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 13, 2014)

Casually Red said:


> do you even know what sectarian means ?



"Sect" doesn't only apply to religion, but to politics too, as you well know unless the dictionary you're getting your definition from is a couple of hundred years old and has pages missing.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jan 13, 2014)

Okay, there've been a few reports about this thread though apparently nobody was about last night - I'll just say that there's an unacceptable level of sectarian abuse going on here which should kindly stop.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 13, 2014)

revol68 said:


> I bet you get a right wee chub on every time you type "grass", imagining gruff men with balaclavas kicking in backdoors.



So, he doesn't see himself as one of the "gruff men with balaclavas kicking in back doors"?

BTW, is this literal back doors of is "back doors" in euphemistic use here?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 13, 2014)

Casually Red said:


> yeah, complete with someone running to teacher



With you as the dunce sat in the corner.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 13, 2014)

Casually Red said:


> anyways, I can see whats going here . A few snidey elements are blatantly trying to get me banned hence piling in and all the rest . Ill leave yis all to it . Best of British etc



And there it is, the final recourse of the poster who has no manouvering room left, the accusations of being ganged up on! Why don't you go join the other proponents of that theory on twitter?  I'm sure that detective_boy would love to see you.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 13, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> on my way to work today saw some dubstep act called "zyklon sound" advertised on a poster
> 
> are they just morons or something more sinister?



German for "cyclone", so they may just be ahistoric twats who liked the name "cyclone sound" and wanted to jazz it up.

It's dubstep though, so they're probably cunts!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 13, 2014)

elbows said:


> Is Zyklon still the widely used German word for cyclone?



It's in my 2004 Collins German dictionary (the wrist-breakingly big 'n' heavy edition), so almost certainly still in common usage.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 13, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> German for "cyclone", so they may just be ahistoric twats who liked the name "cyclone sound" and wanted to jazz it up.
> 
> It's dubstep though, so they're probably cunts!


 
there is an EBM band called "psyclon 9" named after zyklon-b and the lead singer got "ubermensch" tattooed on his chest 

apparently it wasn't dodgy because they had a jewish drummer at the beginning


----------



## revol68 (Jan 13, 2014)

LiamO said:


> Actually it was the 1981 Hunger-Strikers whom Revol was referring to, specifically using sectarian terms to denigrate (and de-politicise) Republicanism.
> 
> Now I have seen Ariel Sharon called all sorts of things, from 'war criminal' to 'murderer' to 'cunt' on these boards in the last few days. I have also used these words to describe him myself.
> 
> ...



actually it was N_igma I was referring to, with bog trotting fenian cunt, a poster who also gets drunk and posts sectarian abuse in a manner I don't find offensive.

also note that I'm half and half so Casually throwing the orange cunt line is a tad different.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 13, 2014)

revol68 said:


> actually it was N_igma I was referring to, with bog trotting fenian cunt, a poster who also gets drunk and posts sectarian abuse in a manner I don't find offensive.
> 
> also note that I'm half and half so Casually throwing the orange cunt line is a tad different.


your new decision to say 'i am an orangeman' and 'i am a republican' seems to be, to say the least, something of a departure from previous practice.


----------



## revol68 (Jan 13, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> your new decision to say 'i am an orangeman' and 'i am a republican' seems to be, to say the least, something of a departure from previous practice.



or maybe the terms orange this or fenian that are insults that extend well beyond explicit political or religious lineage into almost racialised categories.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 13, 2014)

revol68 said:


> or maybe the terms orange this or fenian that are insults that extend well beyond explicit political or religious lineage into almost racialised categories.


maybe they are. but by saying you're both an orange cunt and a fenian cunt (or words to that effect) you suggest that at least in your case the words have no real meaning - perhaps we should settle for simply considering you a cunt.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 13, 2014)

His email includes 'zyklon beats'  

Oh you have to be fucking joking  

Although to be honest I suspect he's an idiot not a Nazi. Could be wrong though


----------



## MellySingsDoom (Jan 13, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> His email includes 'zyklon beats'
> 
> Oh you have to be fucking joking
> 
> Although to be honest I suspect he's an idiot not a Nazi. Could be wrong though



Oh dear - someone boot him up the arse.

There's a black metal group called Zyklon, w/Samoth from Emperor present.  How "transgressive" of them etc.  They've made the usual denials about their name - whatever, they're feckwits and deserve nowt but opprobrium.

Remember too that Throbbing Gristle did "Zyklon B Zombie" (the B-side to their "United" single) - I think Genesis P Orridge wrote for the lyrics on that one (the lyrics are online, as it goes).  I wouldn't have T Gristle down as being politically dodgy on that front per se (certainly the late Peter Christopherson slammed bands/musicians for racist/fascist statments and for messing around w/fascist imagery a la Death In June etc), but I dunno, a little "transgression" goes a long, long way sometimes.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 13, 2014)

MellySingsDoom said:


> Oh dear - someone boot him up the arse.
> 
> There's a black metal group called Zyklon, w/Samoth from Emperor present.  How "transgressive" of them etc.  They've made the usual denials about their name - whatever, they're feckwits and deserve nowt but opprobrium.
> 
> Remember too that Throbbing Gristle did "Zyklon B Zombie" (the B-side to their "United" single) - I think Genesis P Orridge wrote for the lyrics on that one (the lyrics are online, as it goes).  I wouldn't have T Gristle down as being politically dodgy on that front per se (certainly the late Peter Christopherson slammed bands/musicians for racist/fascist statments and for messing around w/fascist imagery a la Death In June etc), but I dunno, a little "transgression" goes a long, long way sometimes.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 13, 2014)

MellySingsDoom said:


> Oh dear - someone boot him up the arse.
> 
> There's a black metal group called Zyklon, w/Samoth from Emperor present.  How "transgressive" of them etc.  They've made the usual denials about their name - whatever, they're feckwits and deserve nowt but opprobrium.
> 
> Remember too that Throbbing Gristle did "Zyklon B Zombie" (the B-side to their "United" single) - I think Genesis P Orridge wrote for the lyrics on that one (the lyrics are online, as it goes).  I wouldn't have T Gristle down as being politically dodgy on that front per se (certainly the late Peter Christopherson slammed bands/musicians for racist/fascist statments and for messing around w/fascist imagery a la Death In June etc), but I dunno, a little "transgression" goes a long, long way sometimes.




Yeah there's nothing wrong with doing songs about Nazism etc necessarily! Its just that you shouldn't make it look cool or like you're endorsing it. dunno. Edited: s lot of EMB bands 'play around ' with thst sort of imageryand misogyny etc but sometimes they actually mean it or are mates with people who do


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 13, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Mind you maybe there is? Maybe they don't actually know?



More likely, they're just assholes.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 13, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Yeah there's nothing wrong with doing songs about Nazism etc necessarily! Its just that you shouldn't make it look cool or like you're endorsing it. Maybe you should though, dunno.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 13, 2014)

_Blood Must Be Shed / Wraths of Time_ split EP with Swordmaster (1996)
"Mental Orgasm" – 2:54
"Bloodsoil" – 2:25
"Warfare" – 5:35
"Wraths of Time" – 5:37
"Upon Blood and Ashes" – 5:17
"Conspiracy - Preview" – 2:56


Yeah, that's not dodgy at all


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 13, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> _Blood Must Be Shed / Wraths of Time_ split EP with Swordmaster (1996)
> "Mental Orgasm" – 2:54
> "Bloodsoil" – 2:25
> "Warfare" – 5:35
> ...


it's bloody awful. listened to the first 30 seconds of 'mental orgasm' - don't


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 13, 2014)

That 'candlelight records' looks dodgy as fuck too


----------



## MellySingsDoom (Jan 13, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Yeah there's nothing wrong with doing songs about Nazism etc necessarily! Its just that you shouldn't make it look cool or like you're endorsing it. Maybe you should though, dunno.



I think that context is needed, and the musician's own position made clear when touching upon this subject.  T Gristle caused a stink when their Industrial Records logo was originally positively commented on for its aesthetic look, then slammed by a fair few people when they revealed that the photo was taken from Auschwitz.  TG were engaged in what they called an "information war", where they explored subjects then deemed to be taboo/unsayable at the time, and they explored all sorts of subjects (and sounds, of course).  I think that time has vindicated TG's position, and you can't really blame them for inspiring a whole bunch of groups who completely missed the point TG were trying to make, and simply tried to outdo each other in the offensiveness stakes (e.g Kevin Tomkins penning pro-Reynhard Heydrich lyrics in 1982), and you end up with feckwits like Streicher penning such numbers as "For Race And Nation" and "Aryan Stormtroopers".

I still think Gen's lyrics on "Zyklon..." err on the crap side, though.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 13, 2014)

Yep.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 13, 2014)

Formed in 2007 with the intention of honouring England’s proud ancestral heritage and rich national culture, WINTERFYLLETH (comprised of members culled from the UK’s most devastating doom contingent ATAVIST) set a solidified mission statement to bring awareness to England’s historical stories, folklore, landscapes and ancestral past through their folk-influenced vitriolic black metal.

Coining the term English Heritage Black Metal (EHBM), Winterfylleth (which translates into Winter Full Moon from the Olde English language) represents the first full moon in October as well as the Anglo-Saxon festival of the arrival of winter.

I don't even have to listen to thst to know it's shit


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 13, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Formed in 2007 with the intention of honouring England’s proud ancestral heritage and rich national culture, WINTERFYLLETH (comprised of members culled from the UK’s most devastating doom contingent ATAVIST) set a solidified mission statement to bring awareness to England’s historical stories, folklore, landscapes and ancestral past through their folk-influenced vitriolic black metal.
> 
> Coining the term English Heritage Black Metal (EHBM), Winterfylleth (which translates into Winter Full Moon from the Olde English language) represents the first full moon in October as well as the Anglo-Saxon festival of the arrival of winter.
> 
> I don't even have to listen to thst to know it's shit


you have to listen to it to know just how shit it is


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 13, 2014)

MellySingsDoom said:


> I think that context is needed, and the musician's own position made clear when touching upon this subject.  T Gristle caused a stink when their Industrial Records logo was originally positively commented on for its aesthetic look, then slammed by a fair few people when they revealed that the photo was taken from Auschwitz.  TG were engaged in what they called an "information war", where they explored subjects then deemed to be taboo/unsayable at the time, and they explored all sorts of subjects (and sounds, of course).  I think that time has vindicated TG's position, and you can't really blame them for inspiring a whole bunch of groups who completely missed the point TG were trying to make, and simply tried to outdo each other in the offensiveness stakes (e.g Kevin Tomkins penning pro-Reynhard Heydrich lyrics in 1982), and you end up with feckwits like Streicher penning such numbers as "For Race And Nation" and "Aryan Stormtroopers".
> 
> I still think Gen's lyrics on "Zyklon..." err on the crap side, though.


I think they and their arguments are crap and they were doing simple shock shit. Middlebrow shit for weekend nazis. That WAS the point. This whole hidden info nonsense is something that only a teenage kid who had done literally 5 seconds research could come up with. Almost the whole of post war mainstream history is concerned with this _hidden info_ ffs. Twats.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 13, 2014)

Auschwitz =  taboo/unsayable at the time/1979? Really? That's why a museum was built on the site in 1947 and it was declared a UNESCO World Heritage Site the same year that shite was churned out.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 13, 2014)

Ffs this band signed by candlelight records has brought out a album called 'the virus conspires' 

Tracks include 'red terror' and 'titan' 

That is in no way dodgy lol


----------



## MellySingsDoom (Jan 13, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> I think they and their arguments are crap and they were doing simple shock shit. Middlebrow shit for weekend nazis. That WAS the point. This whole hidden info nonsense is something that only a teenage kid who had done literally 5 seconds research could come up with. Almost the whole of post war mainstream history is concerned with this _hidden info_ ffs. Twats.



Points taken and understood. You've reminded me that they did a song 
called "Subhuman", and that is 
definitely dodgy, from what I can recall. 

 I guess what I was trying to explain (and did badly, on reflection) was that this outfit were doing stuff that hadn't really been covered that much in music (I'm happy to be corrected on that point).  TG definitely did influence both weekend Nazis and actual fascists on the music front, as time has shown (hence K Tomkins and Streicher).

You've already made me consider that at the time, you had fascist groups causing real violence and misery on communities, and that they openly deployed fascist imagery as well.  Considering this, they were really playing with fire with the Auschwitz pics etc, and should have thought through the implications of what they were getting into.

I hold my hands up that I was pretty clueless about a lot of history and TG's  references in my much younger days - it took me learning from all the right places and basically growing up that led me to question stuff myself, including the whole transgression business (which is a dead end and does up being both predictable and also objectionable).

With that in mind, I think it's right that I withdraw the whole "TG were vindicated"  remark I made, and thank you for pulling me up on this. Note to self: learn to engage brain and think things through before posting here in future.


----------



## MellySingsDoom (Jan 13, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Auschwitz =  taboo/unsayable at the time/1979? Really? That's why a museum was built on the site in 1947 and it was declared a UNESCO World Heritage Site the same year that shite was churned out.



Again, I really, really should have engaged brain and thought things through before posting that "unsayable"   stuff.  You're absolutely right - not only on the whole museum/UNESCO site thing, but also the ongoing education and testimony from survivors, organisations and historians on the Holocaust and the Nazi regime in general. 

Sorry everyone - consider myself correctly bollocked for this, and I hold my hands up in being a clueless arse
 on this one.   These things are worth getting right, after all.


----------



## xenon (Jan 13, 2014)

DP


----------



## xenon (Jan 13, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Formed in 2007 with the intention of honouring England’s proud ancestral heritage and rich national culture, WINTERFYLLETH (comprised of members culled from the UK’s most devastating doom contingent ATAVIST) set a solidified mission statement to bring awareness to England’s historical stories, folklore, landscapes and ancestral past through their folk-influenced vitriolic black metal.
> 
> Coining the term English Heritage Black Metal (EHBM), Winterfylleth (which translates into Winter Full Moon from the Olde English language) represents the first full moon in October as well as the Anglo-Saxon festival of the arrival of winter.
> 
> I don't even have to listen to thst to know it's shit



Bit of a discussion re Politically dodge Black Metal bands. You might have seen it. (I've not read all of this thread.)
http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/black-metal-that-is-not-politically-dodge.316565/


----------



## xslavearcx (Jan 14, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Formed in 2007 with the intention of honouring England’s proud ancestral heritage and rich national culture, WINTERFYLLETH (comprised of members culled from the UK’s most devastating doom contingent ATAVIST) set a solidified mission statement to bring awareness to England’s historical stories, folklore, landscapes and ancestral past through their folk-influenced vitriolic black metal.
> 
> Coining the term English Heritage Black Metal (EHBM), Winterfylleth (which translates into Winter Full Moon from the Olde English language) represents the first full moon in October as well as the Anglo-Saxon festival of the arrival of winter.
> 
> I don't even have to listen to thst to know it's shit



give me good old fashioned floridan death metal any day...


----------



## barney_pig (Jan 14, 2014)

Is English heritage black metal a breakaway from national trust death disco?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 14, 2014)

barney_pig said:


> Is English heritage black metal a breakaway from national trust death disco?



If it isn't, it should be.


----------



## Wilf (Jan 14, 2014)

barney_pig said:


> Is English heritage black metal a breakaway from national trust death disco?


 Morris dancers in the moshpit, whizz flavoured jars of chutney.


----------



## barney_pig (Jan 14, 2014)

Wilf said:


> Morris dancers in the moshpit, whizz flavoured jars of chutney.


This is the world I would fight for


----------



## Wilf (Jan 14, 2014)

barney_pig said:


> This is the world I would fight for


 Albion!


----------



## Idris2002 (Jan 15, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Auschwitz =  taboo/unsayable at the time/1979? Really? That's why a museum was built on the site in 1947 and it was declared a UNESCO World Heritage Site the same year that shite was churned out.



My German teacher - she is both a teacher of German, and German - was telling me this morning that a Hitchcock documentary about the camps, made in 1945 but never shown, has been discovered in the archives in UK.


----------



## elbows (Jan 15, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> My German teacher - she is both a teacher of German, and German - was telling me this morning that a Hitchcock documentary about the camps, made in 1945 but never shown, has been discovered in the archives in UK.



Its being worked on and will be shown on UK TV next year according to recent press reports:

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-e...caust-documentary-to-be-screened-9044945.html

Since a not-so-well restored version was shown on US TV in the 1980's, I believe there are clips on archive.org and youtube. Not tried to watch it myself but a search for 'Memory of the Camps' will probably reveal the horror.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 15, 2014)

I have a copy of it - it's not really a hitchcock thing, he was more of the concepts organiser and general advisor. It was footage shot by a large group of people. None of them doing the quenelle. It was produced to show the german soldiers and population not for general release, and because of the period in which it was made it omits lots of stuff - primarily about what the holocaust was - that we know about today but that they simply didn't at the time.


----------



## Idris2002 (Jan 15, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> I have a copy of it - .



Always have to win, don't you, Butchers.


----------



## treelover (Jan 15, 2014)

> The Trevor Howard voiceover narration in Memory of the Camps is strangely reminiscent of the one that director Carol Reed himself read over the opening of The Third Man (in which Howard co-starred.) It has the same sardonic understatement as it describes the devastation wreaked by the war. *In the new version, the words will remain (but have now been recorded by a contemporary actor.)[/*QUOTE]
> 
> I bet its Cumberbatch


----------



## Nice one (Jan 16, 2014)

*Polish prosecutor: 'Auschwitz' football chants are not anti-Semitic*

"Move on, Jews! Your home is at Auschwitz! Send you to the gas (chamber)!" These are comments that you might expect to hear in 1940s Europe, but in 2014? Apparently yes, according to a Polish municipal prosecutor in Poznan, who decided this week that chants by football fans are not criminal offenses".

"The incident, which happened during a Polish league game between Lech Poznan and Widzew Lodz on September 29, 2013, has sparked debate over the country's attitude towards anti-Semitism... Prosecutor Monika Rutkowsk decided not to take any action against the Poznan fans on the grounds that their chants were directed at the opposing team and not specifically at Jews".

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/01/15/sport/football/poland-football-anti-semitism/


----------



## Fedayn (Jan 16, 2014)

Kenan Malik on the issue....

http://kenanmalik.wordpress.com/2014/01/15/dieudonne-the-clown-of-the-anti-age/


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 16, 2014)

Good piece. Pretty much a summation of the points by the decent posters on this thread.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 16, 2014)

Fedayn said:


> Kenan Malik on the issue....
> 
> http://kenanmalik.wordpress.com/2014/01/15/dieudonne-the-clown-of-the-anti-age/




I thought that was a good piece, but at the same time is there not a risk of playing it up a bit too much (I know ive probably done it myself on this thread so I apologize)

I'd say that a lot of the antisemitism I've experienced has been from 'political' types or people that see themselves that way and that it doesn't exist to the same extent once you get out of that bubble. I am not saying it doesn't exist at all because I've experienced it but a lot of it was from people who probably see themselves as on the left or being well informed about politics anyway.

I think there's a risk of like making it bigger than it currently is? And I know when I've heard antisemitic stuff I often panic and think that its increased, and it has, but like how much in reality? It's still, with the majority of the public, completely unacceptable in a way that some other types of racism aren't always, and in fact I'd say that for some people that may be part of its appeal


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 16, 2014)

By that I don't mean that most people are racist or whatever but I think outside of political contexts its a bit more unusual to hear it than say people talking about Muslims etc? (Although with any minority most people are a lot less prejudiced than a lot of leftists think) And I think a huge reason why its unacceptable is because of the war and the fact that its associated with Nazism.

Like its definitely increased in my view but I don't think it has really got that bad amomg most of the public. And like to the extent it has increased I think the 'traditional' left bears some responsibility tbh


----------



## brogdale (Jan 17, 2014)

Corporate dollar seems to have made up its mind about Anelka.



> *West Bromwich Albion’*s sponsor, Zoopla, warned the club on Friday night to axe Nicolas Anelka or risk their lucrative shirt deal being scrapped.
> 
> Zoopla, a property and house prices website company, has delivered an ultimatum to Albion by threatening to pull out of its contract if Anelka plays in the *Premier League* game against *Everton* at the Hawthorns on Monday night.
> 
> ...


----------



## goldenecitrone (Jan 17, 2014)

brogdale said:


> Corporate dollar seems to have made up its mind about Anelka.



The co-owner is Jewish. He can't have been too impressed by it.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 18, 2014)

I dunno, out of all the people I have day to day contact with (people I work with, people I live with etc) I don't think _any_ of them are antisemites, if they are they're hiding it so well that it's not worth thinking about. I worked in a warehouse for six months in 2011 and never once heard any anti-semitic remarks during that time, I heard racism from time to time but not very much of it. From things I experienced when I was younger and stuff mates have told me its more likely to be a problem in the Muslim community

I've experienced a bit of anti-semitism but I don't think it's anywhere near as bad as what my grandma experienced or even what my dad did. I know it's bad in some parts of the country and I've heard horrible stuff from mates etc. I think its quite bad in some schools etc but I'll say that for every antisemitic cunt I've encountered there are hundreds more people who are fucking horrified by it. I think there's a risk of playing up its significance which could become a self fulfilling prophecy in a way. 

I dunno, I don't think this is a defining feature of politics or what the public think, I think that the appeal of antisemitism for many people comes out of its very unacceptability and the feeling that they know something that the rest of the public don't, taboos, 'uncomfortable truths' etc, I also think that the fact that you find conspiracy theories being quite popular in things like the underground rave scene (which despite what people may think has never comprised a majority of the public or even young people) and various protest movements etc sort of demonstrates this. I'm not saying it doesn't exist outside this but I think its still fairly marginal tbh, I also think its quite a middle class prejudice as well and the people I have known to be antisemitic would have certainly looked down on 'sun readers' and the like and considered most working class people to be stupid and uneducated (and they would probably not imagine themselves to be on the right or racist) 

Slightly off topic but I'm reminded of some years ago when I was doing leafleting for an anti cuts meeting and one of the people doing it with me was moaning about how shoppers were just walking past and ignoring us and saying that they had their eyes closed and didn't want to know, that they didn't understand how they didn't care about it etc. At the time I was thinking that they may be busy or have other stuff on their minds, not taking a leaflet for a meeting doesn't mean you don't care. But I think that this type of mentality might be like a fertile ground for an antisemitic mentality, thinking that you know better about these like 'hidden truths' or whatever than everyone else - not saying she was antisemitic obviously but I think this kind of culture of thinking you know better than everyone brcause you 'know about politics' can kind of lend itself to conspiracism and that sort of thing. 

I may be talking bollocks of course but most of the places I've worked I never experienced anything like that, when I did experience it it was shocking because it was so unusual and I didn't expect to hear those types of opinions at work, I certainly think its something to be worried about but from my experience it's rejected by the vast majority of people.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 18, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> I think there's a risk of like making it bigger than it currently is?


 
I think many people have invested heavily in doing just that.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 18, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Slightly off topic but I'm reminded of some years ago when I was doing leafleting for an anti cuts meeting and one of the people doing it with me was moaning about how shoppers were just walking past and ignoring us and saying that they had their eyes closed and didn't want to know, that they didn't understand how they didn't care about it etc. At the time I was thinking that they may be busy or have other stuff on their minds, not taking a leaflet for a meeting doesn't mean you don't care. But I think that this type of mentality might be like a fertile ground for an antisemitic mentality, thinking that you know better about these like 'hidden truths' or whatever than everyone else - not saying she was antisemitic obviously but I think this kind of culture of thinking you know better than everyone brcause you 'know about politics' can kind of lend itself to conspiracism and that sort of thing.


 
I understand that you've posted this anecdote with numerous caveats attached, and so my comment is not really aimed at you specifically.

But what you describe here is getting more common, I think.  People are basically seeing anti-semitism wherever they want to see it.  It's fear of prejudice as neurosis.

You're lucky to be sufficiently self-aware to see this process operating within your mind, and to reflect critically upon it.  But others are not so self-aware.  Such people are easy prey for unscrupulous agitators who would exploit their anxieties for their own ends.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 18, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> I understand that you've posted this anecdote with numerous caveats attached, and so my comment is not really aimed at you specifically.
> 
> But what you describe here is getting more common, I think.  People are basically seeing anti-semitism wherever they want to see it.  It's fear of prejudice as neurosis.
> 
> You're lucky to be sufficiently self-aware to see this process operating within your mind, and to reflect critically upon it.  But others are not so self-aware.  Such people are easy prey for unscrupulous agitators who would exploit their anxieties for their own ends.




No, that really wasn't the point I'm making, I don't think she was antisemitic at all. What I was trying to say ( and maybe didn't say very well ) is that I think this stuff can sort of get a fertile ground where there's a culture of thinking that you know better than other people about politics simply because you are an activist (withoit knowing what those others are doing) the whole idea of the 'professional revolutionary' the idea that if someone doesn't want to take literature or go to a meeting or use the latest intersectional jargon they must either not care, be right wing or be brainwashed

That's not about this person specifically but it's a problem throughout the left and one of the reasons why I think the traditional left has become a bit useless 

I agree about seeing antisemitism everywhere, that's why I've said that I think its a fairly marginal thing in the UK at the moment, I certainly don't think its anything most people in the UK agree with but I was giving my views as to why some antisemites might agree with it and where the attraction to it could come from


----------



## Fedayn (Jan 20, 2014)

West Brom sponsors Zoopla to end deal with West Brom at the end of the season.



> The property company said in a statement: "Zoopla has been reviewing its position over the past few weeks in light of the actions of striker, Nicolas Anelka, during the match against West Ham over the Christmas period.



http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/25810659


----------



## revol68 (Jan 20, 2014)

Fedayn said:


> West Brom sponsors Zoopla to end deal with West Brom at the end of the season.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/25810659



see, the claws of international Jewry reach everywhere, suppressing dissenting voices.


----------



## Nice one (Jan 21, 2014)

> A STUDENT held after chanting abuse about the Pope and the Queen at a football match has been convicted under controversial anti-sectarian laws. But Adam Richmond, 19, walked away without a criminal record after a sheriff said he should not have been dragged into court.


http://uniceone.wordpress.com/2014/...s-he-should-not-have-been-dragged-into-court/


----------



## ddraig (Jan 21, 2014)

Anelka charged by FA
http://www.theguardian.com/football...anelka-charged-fa-quenelle-gesture?CMP=twt_gu


> Nicolas Anelka has been charged by the Football Association for making a gesture that was alleged to be "abusive or indecent or insulting or improper" during the match against West Ham on 28 December last year.
> 
> An FA statement said: "It is alleged that, in the 40th minute of the fixture, Anelka made a gesture which was abusive and/or indecent and/or insulting and/or improper, contrary to FA Rule E3[1].
> 
> ...


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 21, 2014)

That's the same they did Suarez on isn't it?


----------



## cesare (Jan 21, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> That's the same they did Suarez on isn't it?


Yes, I think so


----------



## Teaboy (Jan 21, 2014)

I think the FA were always going to have to act.  I seem to remember Suarez's defence was that the word wasn't seen as racist / offensive in his own country, having rejected that the FA were bound also to reject Anelka's defence.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 21, 2014)

Teaboy said:


> I think the FA were always going to have to act.  I seem to remember Suarez's defence was that the word wasn't seen as racist / offensive in his own country, having rejected that the FA were bound also to reject Anelka's defence.


They haven't rejected it yet!


----------



## Teaboy (Jan 21, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> The haven't rejected it yet!



Well, they must have considered it before charging him.  Of course Anelka can appeal the charge with a personal hearing (which he probably will) but I don't think he'll stand much of a chance.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 21, 2014)

Teaboy said:


> Well, they must have considered it before charging him.  Of course Anelka can appeal the charge with a personal hearing (which he probably will) but I don't think he'll stand much of a chance.


He can't appeal the charge! There's no such thing as appealing the charge. He has to go through their process now - lawyers, evidence, expert witnesses everything. Same as Suarez. This isn't the sort of minor thing where you used to be able to ask for a personal hearing and it was done in an hour then off to the bar. And he can't appeal the tribunals judgment either.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 21, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> The haven't rejected it yet!


the way things are done in Teaboy's world is akin to that of alice in wonderland


----------



## TruXta (Jan 21, 2014)

Should be interesting to see how this plays out.


----------



## cesare (Jan 21, 2014)

The defence of "but in Uruquay, "porque, negro" is a friendly way of addressing a black person" 

And

The possible defence of "but the quenelle is a gesture of anti-authoritarianism and its habitual use outside holocaust memorials is purely coincidental"


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 21, 2014)

Actually - slight backtrack, we've not quite reached the Suarez point yet - the full 'trial' thing anyway - that will happen if Anelka denies the charge. Before that: "A three-man independent regulatory commission will now be appointed to deal with the case – either to decide on the sanction if Anelka admits the charge or to hold a disciplinary hearing if he denies it."


----------



## andysays (Jan 21, 2014)

ddraig said:


> "It is further alleged that this is an aggravated breach, as defined in FA Rule E3[2], in that it included a reference to ethnic origin and/or race and/or religion or belief."



Will be interesting to see how the FA argue this bit.

Might this explain why they've taken a while to decide on what to charge Anelka with? - maybe someone's been reading this thread...


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 21, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Actually - slight backtrack, we've not quite reached the Suarez point yet - the full 'trial' thing anyway - that will happen if Anelka denies the charge. Before that: "A three-man independent regulatory commission will now be appointed to deal with the case – either to decide on the sanction if Anelka admits the charge or to hold a disciplinary hearing if he denies it."


given he's already said 'i did it' it's hard to see how he can deny making the gesture


----------



## TruXta (Jan 21, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> given he's already said 'i did it' it's hard to see how he can deny making the gesture


Likely he'll argue the gesture is non-offensive wrt the charges brought.


----------



## Wilf (Jan 21, 2014)

Wonder who he'll bring in as expert witness. David Icke?


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 21, 2014)

Wilf said:


> Wonder who he'll bring in as expert witness. David Icke?




David Irving


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 21, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> David Irving


irving would say it should be more like this


----------



## Favelado (Jan 21, 2014)

cesare said:


> The defence of "but in Uruquay, "porque, negro" is a friendly way of addressing a black person"
> 
> And
> 
> The possible defence of "but the quenelle is a gesture of anti-authoritarianism and its habitual use outside holocaust memorials is purely coincidental"



Suárez is generally a cheat and a twat but in South American culture negrito/rubio/moreno etc are used by everyone all the time to talk to each other. The way that covered in the UK was complete bullshit.  Whether Suárez was using plausible deniability as a way of winding up Evra, and also whether you think you can transport South American culture into an Anglo-Saxon environment and pretend it's fine are different things completely. But yeah, calling people "negrito", "moreno" or a number of other words to describe someone's appearance is fine in those cultures. I have an acquaintance who insists on being called "la morena" or la "morenaza" even though I've asked for her real name. How a situation emerged where some nicknames are about skin colour while white people's tend to be about hair colour is a moot point however; one that might well be racist at its root. Sorry, as I'm sure this is old ground.

The quenelle is an anti-semitic gesture invented by an anti-semite occasionally used for other purposes. It's much more clear-cut. Its use can never be considered wholly innocent.


----------



## cesare (Jan 21, 2014)

Favelado said:


> Suárez is generally a cheat and a twat but in South American culture negrito/rubio/moreno etc are used by everyone all the time to talk to each other. The way that covered in the UK was complete bullshit.  Whether Suárez was using plausible deniability as a way of winding up Evra, and also whether you think you can transport South American culture into an Anglo-Saxon environment and pretend it's fine are different things completely. But yeah, calling people "negrito", "moreno" or a number of other words to describe someone's appearance is fine in those cultures. I have an acquaintance who insists on being called "la morena" or la "morenaza" even though I've asked for her real name. How a situation emerged where some nicknames are about skin colour while white people's tend to be about hair colour is a moot point however; one that might well be racist at its root. Sorry, as I'm sure this is old ground.
> 
> The quenelle is an anti-semitic gesture invented by an anti-semite occasionally used for other purposes. It's much more clear-cut. It's use can never be considered wholly innocent.


Whatever the pros and cons of Uruguayan custom and practice regarding addressing people, it's clear the FA decided it didn't import well. It wouldn't surprise me if they decide that the quenelle doesn't import well either.

Edit: the emphasis is on how it's (reasonably) received. How it's intended is mitigation.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 21, 2014)

Favelado said:


> Suárez is generally a cheat and a twat but in South American culture negrito/rubio/moreno etc are used by everyone all the time to talk to each other. The way that covered in the UK was complete bullshit.  Whether Suárez was using plausible deniability as a way of winding up Evra, and also whether you think you can transport South American culture into an Anglo-Saxon environment and pretend it's fine are different things completely. But yeah, calling people "negrito", "moreno" or a number of other words to describe someone's appearance is fine in those cultures. I have an acquaintance who insists on being called "la morena" or la "morenaza" even though I've asked for her real name. How a situation emerged where some nicknames are about skin colour while white people's tend to be about hair colour is a moot point however; one that might well be racist at its root. Sorry, as I'm sure this is old ground.
> 
> The quenelle is an anti-semitic gesture invented by an anti-semite occasionally used for other purposes. It's much more clear-cut. It's use can never be considered wholly innocent.


Don't think you were here at the time - and don't know if you have inclination to return to the issue, but the long suarez thread on here was a very interesting read.


----------



## Favelado (Jan 21, 2014)

cesare said:


> Whatever the pros and cons of Uruguayan custom and practice regarding addressing people, it's clear the FA decided it didn't import well. It wouldn't surprise me if they decide that the quenelle doesn't import well either.



That's true, but it's worth pointing out what a load of shit people in Britain spoke about that case.


----------



## Favelado (Jan 21, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Don't think you were here at the time - and on't know if you have inclination to return to the issue, but the long suarez thread on here was a very interesting read.



I will and I'm sure I can learn something too. There's plenty of people on here who would have something valuable to say. Apologies for derail.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 21, 2014)

Favelado said:


> That's true, but it's worth pointing out what a load of shit people in Britain spoke about that case.


you're a liverpool supporter, iirc, so unlikely to be wholly objective on this


----------



## TruXta (Jan 21, 2014)

Favelado said:


> That's true, but it's worth pointing out what a load of shit people in Britain spoke about that case.


 Just read the thread butchers linked to - it was all gone over many many times.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 21, 2014)

Favelado said:


> I will and I'm sure I can learn something too. There's plenty of people on here who would have something valuable to say. Apologies for derail.


Not sure it's a derail given the charges and initial defences. Could be some quite revealing comparisons to be made - depending on how Anelka responds to the charges anyway.


----------



## Teaboy (Jan 21, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> the way things are done in Teaboy's world is akin to that of alice in wonderland



its a nice place, you should come and see it some time.


----------



## Favelado (Jan 21, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> you're a liverpool supporter, iirc, so unlikely to be wholly objective on this



I am a Liverpool supporter but happy to call Suárez a cheat and a twat - also happy to consider that he may have been using the language with plausible deniability and therefore being racist by using it.


----------



## Teaboy (Jan 21, 2014)

I reckon Anelka would be best to just admit the charge but stick with the ignorance defence as mitigation, that way he might only get the 5 match ban.  If he does choose to fight his corner I can see him getting a similar punishment to Suarez.

West Brom's handling of the situation is also looking increasingly questionable.


----------



## cesare (Jan 21, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Don't think you were here at the time - and don't know if you have inclination to return to the issue, but the long suarez thread on here was a very interesting read.


This one (from the same time) is also interesting: http://www.urban75.net/forums/threa...moved-from-the-professions-themselves.299772/


----------



## cesare (Jan 21, 2014)

Teaboy said:


> I reckon Anelka would be best to just admit the charge but stick with the ignorance defence as mitigation, that way he might only get the 5 match ban.  If he does choose to fight his corner I can see him getting a similar punishment to Suarez.
> 
> West Brom's handling of the situation is also looking increasingly questionable.


If there's anything remotely ideological about his use of the gesture, he might decide to brazen it out.


----------



## Wilf (Jan 21, 2014)

cesare said:


> If there's anything remotely ideological about his use of the gesture, he might decide to brazen it out.


 Be interesting to see him mounting a 'politics of the banlieue' in front of the FA suits.  
He hasn't got much room to maneuvre though - think he/his agent said something along the lines of 'it was just for my mate (the comedian)' as his initial defence.  In terms of a ban, he's fucked, just a case of which path he heads down en route.


----------



## andysays (Jan 21, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> the way things are done in Teaboy's world is akin to that of alice in wonderland



Through the Looking Glass actually

(pedantry still alive and well)


----------



## Teaboy (Jan 21, 2014)

cesare said:


> If there's anything remotely ideological about his use of the gesture, he might decide to brazen it out.



Well that and he's a professional footballer so almost certainly has an ego the size of a planet.


----------



## ddraig (Jan 21, 2014)

Le Sulk init

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2014/jan/21/nicolas-anelka-chequered-past-west-brom


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 21, 2014)

ddraig said:


> Le Sulk init
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/football/2014/jan/21/nicolas-anelka-chequered-past-west-brom


I don't think they were real sulks  - they were engineered moves away so he and his brothers (who seem to dominate the easily led Nicolas) could pocket agents fees and part of the transfers.


----------



## Favelado (Jan 21, 2014)

The Fiver was at its very best in the days of the Anelka transfers.


----------



## T & P (Jan 21, 2014)

Nice one said:


> STUDENT held after chanting abuse about *the Pope and the Queen* at a football match has been convicted under controversial anti-sectarian laws.


 That's a bit weird. It's normally one or the other


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 21, 2014)

T & P said:


> That's a bit weird. It's normally one or the other


Partick


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 21, 2014)

T & P said:


> That's a bit weird. It's normally one or the other


 
From the article it sounds like he's against sectarianism, fair play to the lad I hope he doesn't get any negative consequences from this.


----------



## revol68 (Jan 21, 2014)

Cursing the queen and pope, good lad and a perfect illustration why left liberals call for more hate speech legislation is the most counter productive shit.


----------



## revol68 (Jan 21, 2014)

Also just had a Facebook run in over this Anelka, complete with statements like "The Jews running false flag operations", other highlights include "NWO", "Secret Elites" and oh yeah "The yids can shut up, Arabs are Semites".


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 21, 2014)

revol68 said:


> Also just had a Facebook run in over this Anelka, complete with statements like "The Jews running false flag operations", other highlights include "NWO", "Secret Elites" and oh yeah "The yids can shut up, Arabs are Semites".


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 21, 2014)

wheres the logic behind an all powerful NWO taking the time to stitch up some prat of a footballer?


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 21, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> wheres the logic behind an all powerful NWO taking the time to stitch up some prat of a footballer?


 
must be a slow day at shlomo and son conspiracies r' us


----------



## revol68 (Jan 21, 2014)

But according to the mutual friend who facilitated this run in on his wall, it's okay cause "Andy is a Semite, child of Hungarian and Palestinian parents". Yeah cause who has ever heard of anti Semitism come from such rootz. Jesus.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 21, 2014)

delete with extreme predge


----------



## MellySingsDoom (Jan 21, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> delete with extreme predge



This.  Time to wield that mighty FB banhammer, revol.


----------



## LiamO (Jan 21, 2014)

revol68 said:


> Cursing the queen and pope, good lad and a perfect illustration why left liberals call for more hate speech legislation is the most counter productive shit.



We used to noise up the loyalists at the Manchester Martyrs March by chanting "I-I-IRA.... fuck the *pope* and the UDA".

It also caused one or two interesting interactions with one or two Glaswegian comrades in the Republican flute bands alliance... 

Agree whole-heartedly about the kid from Partick. Fair play to him for going 'not guilty'. Had he been intimidated into pleading 'guilty' it would have set a ridiculous precedent.


----------



## LiamO (Jan 21, 2014)

MellySingsDoom said:


> This.  Time to wield that mighty FB banhammer, revol.



far better for revol to stay 'fb friends' and argue his corner to that particular audience, I would have thought


----------



## MellySingsDoom (Jan 21, 2014)

LiamO said:


> far better for revol to stay 'fb friends' and argue his corner to that particular audience, I would have thought



Maybe, Liam, maybe.  Personally though, I'd probably banhammer them if they kept coming out w/the same nonsense repeatedly.  Just me own view, like.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 21, 2014)

LiamO said:


> far better for revol to stay 'fb friends' and argue his corner to that particular audience, I would have thought


Why is that 'far better'. Explain why you think that.


----------



## manny-p (Jan 21, 2014)

Favelado said:


> Suárez is generally a cheat and a twat but in South American culture negrito/rubio/moreno etc are used by everyone all the time to talk to each other. The way that covered in the UK was complete bullshit.  Whether Suárez was using plausible deniability as a way of winding up Evra, and also whether you think you can transport South American culture into an Anglo-Saxon environment and pretend it's fine are different things completely. But yeah, calling people "negrito", "moreno" or a number of other words to describe someone's appearance is fine in those cultures. I have an acquaintance who insists on being called "la morena" or la "morenaza" even though I've asked for her real name. How a situation emerged where some nicknames are about skin colour while white people's tend to be about hair colour is a moot point however; one that might well be racist at its root. Sorry, as I'm sure this is old ground.
> 
> The quenelle is an anti-semitic gesture invented by an anti-semite occasionally used for other purposes. It's much more clear-cut. Its use can never be considered wholly innocent.


It wasn't just that. He told evra that he don't shake hands with black people. Am I mistaken?


----------



## revol68 (Jan 21, 2014)

The mutual friend I'll keep, he was saying the fucked up shit, just defending his mate. Don't see the point in banning anyone but the biggest shit heaps.


----------



## revol68 (Jan 21, 2014)

manny-p said:


> It wasn't just that. He told evra that he don't shake hands with black people. Am I mistaken?



Yep.


----------



## manny-p (Jan 21, 2014)

revol68 said:


> The mutual friend I'll keep, he was saying the fucked up shit, just defending his mate. Don't see the point in banning anyone but the biggest shit heaps.


Delete?


----------



## manny-p (Jan 21, 2014)

revol68 said:


> Yep.


Please clarify


----------



## LiamO (Jan 21, 2014)

MellySingsDoom said:


> Maybe, Liam, maybe.  Personally though, I'd probably banhammer them if they kept coming out w/the same nonsense repeatedly.  Just me own view, like.



I dunno. It's never black & white is it?

I have an old mate on my fb who is basically a decent fella but does come out with some outrageous shit - mostly to provoke debate - but I enjoy the comments other people make to shoot down his positions. So does he.

Although he does have some nasty tory mates who post their reactionary shite too. But it's all done, mostly, in the spirit of canteen/gym banter (he is a Plasterer and a Martial Artist). But if I - and the couple of Anarchist Martial Artists who also post - delete him, then we abandon the field to the reactionaries.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 21, 2014)

Was dropping him for adebayor anyway.



> Lukaku, speaking in a video interview which has since been removed from Everton's website, publicly backed the West Brom forward, saying: "He's been my idol since I was a kid. He still is.
> 
> "I think he shouldn't be banned for that. He was supporting a stand-up comedian in France. We don't have to make such a big deal about it. He's an adult. I hope he doesn't get suspended because he's a player people want to see play on the pitch."


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 21, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Was dropping him for adebayor anyway.


Next week Sergio Aguerro on the bedroom tax


----------



## Nice one (Jan 21, 2014)

john barnes on socialism


----------



## Favelado (Jan 21, 2014)

manny-p said:


> It wasn't just that. He told evra that he don't shake hands with black people. Am I mistaken?



I think so.


----------



## MellySingsDoom (Jan 21, 2014)

LiamO said:


> I dunno. It's never black & white is it?
> 
> I have an old mate on my fb who is basically a decent fella but does come out with some outrageous shit - mostly to provoke debate - but I enjoy the comments other people make to shoot down his positions. So does he.
> 
> Although he does have some nasty tory mates who post their reactionary shite too. But it's all done, mostly, in the spirit of canteen/gym banter (he is a Plasterer and a Martial Artist). But if I - and the couple of Anarchist Martial Artists who also post - delete him, then we abandon the field to the reactionaries.



Interesting points you raise there, Liam.  My own "rules" for FB is to allow discussion/debate etc to be as open as possible, and if I have a fundamental disagreement with someone, then the best way is to argue the case on yer own side.  A couple of days ago, I got into a debate with a real-life friend on FB re politics and anti-fascism - their view was that all politics is essentially useless and not worth bothering with, and that political activism changes absolutely nothing.  I didn't agree, but was calm, polite and stuck to the facts.  We agreed to disagree in the end, and finished on good terms.

On the other hand, I found out that a "name" music writer is on FB these days, and this is someone I've known on and off on an offline level since 1993.  For reasons best known to themselves, they've become a rather major suppoter of black metal - a genre of music I overall absolutely despise, due to the political "thinking" of many of the groups involved in said genre (the musical "merits" of black metal is something I'm supremely uninterested in these days - I did have an interest in some of the groups involved 6 years ago or so, but alarm bells started going off in a big way once I read "Lords Of Chaos"*, and once I read up more on this, I dumped the whole thing from my life....the only band that I have even the smallest time for in that scene is the Japanese band Gallhammer, who are far more crust-punk than anything, and are a very rare case of a black metal groups without rancid politics).  Anyway, I was momentarily tempted to hook up with them on FB, but decided against it - they've stuck to their guns on black metal, in spite of the overwhelming evidence of the amount of political garbage involved in that scene, and I concluded that I'd only get into an immediate argument with them, which would be totally futile and energy-wasting.  It's sad really, in a way, because before that they were perfectly decent and reasonable, but I have a hard line on fascist music, and I'm afraid to say anyone who defends that scene is beyond help to me.  Maybe that's unfair, maybe I should listen to what they have to say...but to be honest, I think you have to take a stand somewhere along the line, and say "no, this is unacceptable", and that's my own personal line.

(*Later on, I found out that one of the co-authors of "Lords Of Chaos" - Michael Moynihan - is a major league fascist himself, and the other co-author - Didrik Soderlind - has made positive noises towards the anti-immigration Swedish Democrats.  No wonder the book contained not one instance of any repulsive views being challenged).

2 years ago, I also found to my horror that 5 (five) FB friends also had a certain Mr Southgate as their friend there.  At the time, I thought, "Jesus Christ!", and binned them all immediately.  Would I do the same today?  Depends - if I knew them offline, I'd approach them directly and say "what the fuck is this all about?", and try to persuade them to cut ties with someone like that before ending a relationship with them.  If I didn't know them personally, then the banhammer would come out again, I'm afraid.  I'm also dealing with 2 FB friends who have "liked" the official David Icke page there....again, the banhammer might be coming out there too, as our discussions seem to be getting not very far at all).

I think, ultimately, you have to take contentious issues on a case by case basis.  Argue and debate and challenge where you can, but reserve the right to cut ties where necessary.  And sometimes, you have to be brutal and swift in cutting ties as well.

Hope that makes some sort of sense!  Be interested to know what you make on my take on things.

P.S.  Just remembered this - I also fell out both on FB and in real life w/the former singer of the Stretchheads, after I found out about his real-life friendship with Douglas Pearce (Death In June).


----------



## J Ed (Jan 21, 2014)

Nice one said:


> john barnes on socialism



He was on the Wright stuff recently, I think he said some vaguely progressive stuff


----------



## Favelado (Jan 21, 2014)

J Ed said:


> He was on the Wright stuff recently, I think he said some vaguely progressive stuff



"You've got to hold and give but do it at the right time" sounds like it might be the first step towards a genuinely redistributive economic policy. A bit on the cautious side perhaps.


----------



## J Ed (Jan 21, 2014)

Favelado said:


> Suárez is generally a cheat and a twat but in South American culture negrito/rubio/moreno etc are used by everyone all the time to talk to each other. The way that covered in the UK was complete bullshit.  Whether Suárez was using plausible deniability as a way of winding up Evra, and also whether you think you can transport South American culture into an Anglo-Saxon environment and pretend it's fine are different things completely. But yeah, calling people "negrito", "moreno" or a number of other words to describe someone's appearance is fine in those cultures. I have an acquaintance who insists on being called "la morena" or la "morenaza" even though I've asked for her real name. How a situation emerged where some nicknames are about skin colour while white people's tend to be about hair colour is a moot point however; one that might well be racist at its root. Sorry, as I'm sure this is old ground.



I've spoken to Latin Americans in Spain who seem to think that calling a black lad _negrito_ isn't the same as calling someone _moreno_. Then again Peruvian leftists who are absolutely not racist happily call Fujimori Chinochet. I feel like I'd need to know more about race and language in the Southern Cone to really say much about it..


----------



## Favelado (Jan 21, 2014)

J Ed said:


> I've spoken to Latin Americans in Spain who seem to think that calling a black lad _negrito_ isn't the same as calling someone _moreno_. Then again Peruvian leftists who are absolutely not racist happily call Fujimori Chinochet. I feel like I'd need to know more about race and language in the Southern Cone to really say much about it..



Well they refer to different skin tones of course. There's a lot of context, history and yes, racism involved in all this. It's a subject full of subtleties. An interesting one too that I don't know all the answers too despite experiences and relationships.


----------



## DexterTCN (Jan 21, 2014)

I just had a thought.   Surely the quenelle is only the starting point of the british 'up yours'.

Do the quenelle and then raise your lower hand in a fist.


----------



## J Ed (Jan 21, 2014)

DexterTCN said:


> I just had a thought.   Surely the quenelle is only the starting point of the british 'up yours'.
> 
> Do the quenelle and then raise your lower hand in a fist.



What the fuck is wrong with you?


----------



## Favelado (Jan 21, 2014)

DexterTCN said:


> I just had a thought.   Surely the quenelle is only the starting point of the british 'up yours'.
> 
> Do the quenelle and then raise your lower hand in a fist.



Glad we've cleared that up then. Well done, that's nice work. How do we inform the FA before they make a mistake?


----------



## MellySingsDoom (Jan 21, 2014)

DexterTCN said:


> I just had a thought.   Surely the quenelle is only the starting point of the british 'up yours'.
> 
> Do the quenelle and then raise your lower hand in a fist.



Are you for fucking real, Dexter? 

Do some reading and come back when you've digested the info.


----------



## Nice one (Jan 22, 2014)

J Ed said:


> He was on the Wright stuff recently, I think he said some vaguely progressive stuff



definitely channeling the spirit of shankly in this interview


> "Football is a socialist sport," he explains. "Financially, some may receive more rewards than others but, from a footballing perspective, for 90 minutes, regardless of whether you are Lionel Messi or the substitute right-back for Argentina, you are all working to the same end.
> "The teams which embrace the socialist ideology rather than having superstars, are the teams that are successful."


http://www.standard.co.uk/sport/wor...in-until-they-embrace-team-ethic-6486123.html


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 22, 2014)

Posh boy son. You've got



> Well I came to England looking for fame
> So come on Kenny man, give us a game
> 'cause I'm sat on the bench paying my dues with the blues
> I'm very big down under, but my wife disagrees
> ...


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 22, 2014)

Nice one said:


> definitely channeling the spirit of shankly in this interview
> 
> http://www.standard.co.uk/sport/wor...in-until-they-embrace-team-ethic-6486123.html


Have you a point here btw? If so, state it.


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 22, 2014)

J Ed said:


> He was on the Wright stuff recently, I think he said some vaguely progressive stuff


He actually had a reasonable line on both the Terry case and black managers which contracted with both the knee jerking and positive discrimination lobbies.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 22, 2014)

Barnes has long promoting we don't need a body - those with a body do. He's a rich boy and i don't think his views chime with black footballers today. Not because they're black but because unions sell themselves as cheap trips and insurance. I bet the Union is one of the last 100% places.


----------



## revol68 (Jan 22, 2014)

100% what?


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 22, 2014)

PFA  = closed shop.


----------



## xslavearcx (Jan 22, 2014)

T & P said:


> That's a bit weird. It's normally one or the other



Theres only one team in Glasgow!!!!

The whole song is

"hello hello how do you do,
we hate the boys in royal blue,
we hate the boys in emrald queen,
so fuck your pope and fuck your queen"

- it was in its time defining the partick thistle supporter  position in as non-sectarian manner in contradistinction to the (percieved) orange/protestant rangers and irish-catholic celtic thing. At the time, i think it held its function well. In the context of the crack down on 'sectarian' or 'political' songs sung by rangers and celtic fans, there has been a lot of contradictory prounoncements regarding whether it is suitable to be used in within football, and the charge of it being sectarian has been made (which i think tbh is a lot of bollocks but the sectarian interpretation takes each of those verses in isolation whereas id say its the whole song that makes that point). About 5 years back the SFA gave clarification about that song saying that they did not consider it to be something that would be on the list of problematic songs, but the club has been cracking down on it more often, and it is now generally discouraged by fans in the kinda self policing manner. This is also in the context of recent anti sectarian legistlation that some celtic fan groups have been protesting against of late.

ETA - should also add that scottish football is fucking shite.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 22, 2014)

DexterTCN said:


> I just had a thought.   Surely the quenelle is only the starting point of the british 'up yours'.
> 
> Do the quenelle and then raise your lower hand in a fist.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 22, 2014)

xslavearcx said:


> Theres only one team in Glasgow!!!!
> 
> The whole song is
> 
> ...


 
I don't think there's anything wrong with that song!


----------



## xslavearcx (Jan 22, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> I don't think there's anything wrong with that song!



Am very sad that it no longer gets sung with gusto at firhill, but then again like i said scottish football is shite.

Looking forward to the superbowl - a proper sporting event. Go seahawks!!!!


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 22, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> I don't think there's anything wrong with that song!



apart from the terrible scansion


----------



## xslavearcx (Jan 22, 2014)

MellySingsDoom said:


> Interesting points you raise there, Liam.  My own "rules" for FB is to allow discussion/debate etc to be as open as possible, and if I have a fundamental disagreement with someone, then the best way is to argue the case on yer own side.  A couple of days ago, I got into a debate with a real-life friend on FB re politics and anti-fascism - their view was that all politics is essentially useless and not worth bothering with, and that political activism changes absolutely nothing.  I didn't agree, but was calm, polite and stuck to the facts.  We agreed to disagree in the end, and finished on good terms.
> 
> On the other hand, I found out that a "name" music writer is on FB these days, and this is someone I've known on and off on an offline level since 1993.  For reasons best known to themselves, they've become a rather major suppoter of black metal - a genre of music I overall absolutely despise, due to the political "thinking" of many of the groups involved in said genre (the musical "merits" of black metal is something I'm supremely uninterested in these days - I did have an interest in some of the groups involved 6 years ago or so, but alarm bells started going off in a big way once I read "Lords Of Chaos"*, and once I read up more on this, I dumped the whole thing from my life....the only band that I have even the smallest time for in that scene is the Japanese band Gallhammer, who are far more crust-punk than anything, and are a very rare case of a black metal groups without rancid politics).  Anyway, I was momentarily tempted to hook up with them on FB, but decided against it - they've stuck to their guns on black metal, in spite of the overwhelming evidence of the amount of political garbage involved in that scene, and I concluded that I'd only get into an immediate argument with them, which would be totally futile and energy-wasting.  It's sad really, in a way, because before that they were perfectly decent and reasonable, but I have a hard line on fascist music, and I'm afraid to say anyone who defends that scene is beyond help to me.  Maybe that's unfair, maybe I should listen to what they have to say...but to be honest, I think you have to take a stand somewhere along the line, and say "no, this is unacceptable", and that's my own personal line.
> 
> ...



Heres a good thread on black metal and political dodgyness just in case you haven't read it..
http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/black-metal-that-is-not-politically-dodge.316565/

my question would be - is there any music scene that one would need to walk away from due to political dodgness that circulates within it? Like hardcore has had its moments with the likes of warzone, and agnostic front either holding (quasi?-)fascist views or flirting with the imagary of fascism, not to mention the uber conservative direction that some strands of straightedge did in the 90s; punk white power scene; hip-hop homophobia and misogyny etc...

stretchheads, good band that....


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 22, 2014)

xslavearcx said:


> Heres a good thread on black metal and political dodgyness just in case you haven't read it..
> http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/black-metal-that-is-not-politically-dodge.316565/
> 
> my question would be - is there any music scene that one would need to walk away from due to political dodgness that circulates within it? Like hardcore has had its moments with the likes of warzone, and agnostic front either holding (quasi?-)fascist views or flirting with the imagary of fascism, not to mention the uber conservative direction that some strands of straightedge did in the 90s; punk white power scene; hip-hop homophobia and misogyny etc...
> ...


I have/had (if my mums not cleaned her loft out) their four thingers album - great collection of stupid noise.


----------



## xslavearcx (Jan 22, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> I have/had (if my mums not cleaned her loft out) their four thingers album - great collection of stupid noise.



i had the four fingers LP and the bros is pish ep


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 22, 2014)

J Ed said:


> What the fuck is wrong with you?



What, besides the fact that he's a cunt?


----------



## MellySingsDoom (Jan 22, 2014)

xslavearcx said:


> Heres a good thread on black metal and political dodgyness just in case you haven't read it..
> http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/black-metal-that-is-not-politically-dodge.316565/
> 
> my question would be - is there any music scene that one would need to walk away from due to political dodgness that circulates within it? Like hardcore has had its moments with the likes of warzone, and agnostic front either holding (quasi?-)fascist views or flirting with the imagary of fascism, not to mention the uber conservative direction that some strands of straightedge did in the 90s; punk white power scene; hip-hop homophobia and misogyny etc...
> ...



Thanks for the heads up on the black metal Urban thread - will read up on that later on.

My own take on politically dodgy music?  Well, with hardcore punk, that scene has had its moments of right-wing blundering idiocy, for sure, but you have other bands - such as Converge, for example - whose hearts are in the right place, politically speaking, and I think that all in all, the h/c scene has an overall pretty sensible approach w/regard to tackling fascist etc stuff.  (Mind you, I went right off Iceage after they said how "great" fascist black metallers Absurd are).  Neo-folk is so ingrained w/fascism etc it's not true, so is also worthless.  Much power electronics manages to rampage in the fascist etc etc area with hobnail boots on....the only example of any power electronics group person who has ever expressed regret/contrition for messing about w/fascist imagery is Gary Mundy, who's stated in interviews that he made a mistake in that area.  Hip-hop has its own problem areas, I guess, and I personally won't listen to dancehall containing homophobic lyrics.  Heavy metal has had its fair share of intolerant gems too over the years (Slayer, anyone?), but I find much heavy metal to be laughable Dungeons and Dragons stuff, these days.  There's probably more to discuss here - I'll come back to it later if I can add any more that's valid to the debate at hand.

As for Stretchheads - I saw them live once, and thought them hilarious.  Their records were quite something too, back in the day.  In my case though, falling out with their vocalist has soured my opinion on them somewhat - I haven't listened to them since, to be honest...


----------



## LiamO (Jan 22, 2014)

Anelka speaks...



> The striker posted a video featuring Roger Cukierman, head of Jewish organisation CRIF (Representative Council of French Jewish Institutions), on Twitter on Tuesday and believes the football governing body should have sought his views.
> 
> The ex-France international continued: "The English FA have employed an expert to rule on the significance of my quenelle. He has concluded that my gesture had an anti-Semitic connotation, which had led to me being charged by the FA.
> 
> ...



http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/25845493

anyone know enough french to translate the video rather than just this quote?


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 22, 2014)

Do you?


----------



## DexterTCN (Jan 22, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> What, besides the fact that he's a cunt?


Yes..I'm a cunt for pointing out the in the UK there is a similar physical expression of derision.

Up yours.  Right up yours.  All the way....up.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 22, 2014)

DexterTCN said:


> Yes..I'm a cunt for pointing out the in the UK there is a similar physical expression of derision.
> 
> Up yours.  Right up yours.  All the way....up.


This whole thread - the paths within and without - and that's it?


----------



## Favelado (Jan 22, 2014)

DexterTCN said:


> Yes..I'm a cunt for pointing out the in the UK there is a similar physical expression of derision.
> 
> Up yours.  Right up yours.  All the way....up.



You didn't even get your instructions right. You'd have to twist your arm round. Useless!


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 22, 2014)

oh so it wasn't a crap joke


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 22, 2014)

DexterTCN said:


> I just had a thought.   Surely the quenelle is only the starting point of the british 'up yours'.
> 
> Do the quenelle and then raise your lower hand in a fist.


Just to remind people. That dexter a) doesn't know history and b) what 'up yours' actually is c) is prepared to make up made shit to defend anti-semitism.


----------



## DexterTCN (Jan 22, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Just to remind people. That dexter a) doesn't know history and b) what 'up yours' actually is c) is prepared to make up made shit to defend anti-semitism.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 22, 2014)

Or what country that poster is famously from or what the gesture depicted is. Help yourself.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 22, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Just to remind people. That dexter a) doesn't know history and b) what 'up yours' actually is c) is prepared to make up made shit to defend anti-semitism.





DexterTCN said:


> Yes..I'm a cunt for pointing out the in the UK there is a similar physical expression of derision.
> 
> Up yours.  Right up yours.  All the way....up.



Dexter no there isn't! Giving someone the finger or whatever is just an insult, its got nothing to do with the Jews and taking the piss out of things like the holocaust!!


----------



## DexterTCN (Jan 22, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Dexter no there isn't! Giving someone the finger or whatever is just an insult, its got nothing to do with the Jews and taking the piss out of things like the holocaust!!


Yes there is.


----------



## chilango (Jan 22, 2014)

Aside from the fact that we _know_ the quenelle is antisemitic, and that this was (and is) it's intended message. Merely a a glance at the rigid arm , flattened palm and outstretched fingers will tell that it's not an "up yours" gesture based upon the _bras d'honneur _ but that it's origins lie in a far more obvious place.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 22, 2014)

Yes Dexter , the famous french quenelle derives from anti-french longbowmen at agincourt.


----------



## brogdale (Jan 22, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Yes Dexter , the famous french quenelle derives from anti-french longbowmen at agincourt.


----------



## MellySingsDoom (Jan 22, 2014)

I thought that Dexter was mistaken re the quenelle last night.  Now he's coming across as a complete imbecile.  I haven't seen this much Facepalm City since the late trampie entertained us all with his "all English people are Tories" shtick.


----------



## DexterTCN (Jan 22, 2014)

chilango said:


> Aside from the fact that we _know_ the quenelle is antisemitic, and that this was (and is) it's intended message.....


You're talking about Anelka, right?


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 22, 2014)

DexterTCN said:


> Yes there is.




Oh ffs, can't be fucked with you if you're gonna be like that. Loads of people have explained why it's antisemitic, the main reason being that its invented by a guy famous for antisemitism and using it in his shows about Jews control the world, are we gonna have to do the entire thread again?


----------



## cesare (Jan 22, 2014)

Didn't Mark Von Bommel have to apologise for his bras d'honneur a few years back? And the bras d'honneur's got no anti-Semitic connotations; think you're barking up the wrong tree here Dexter.


----------



## chilango (Jan 22, 2014)

DexterTCN said:


> You're talking about Anelka, right?



I'm talking about the gesture Anelka made.


----------



## DexterTCN (Jan 22, 2014)

chilango said:


> I'm talking about the gesture Anelka made.


So you're saying Anelka is an anti-semite and that was his intention.


----------



## LiamO (Jan 22, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Do you?



Non.

Je ne reget rien


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 22, 2014)

DexterTCN said:


> So you're saying Anelka is an anti-semite and that was his intention.


I like when people say things. That means they believe the thing that they said. The train is red.


----------



## MellySingsDoom (Jan 22, 2014)

DexterTCN said:


> So you're saying Anelka is an anti-semite and that was his intention.



He made the gesture fully knowing about its connotations, and what Dioudonne "invented" it for.

Please, for the love of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, go back and read this thread again.  You're making yourself look a complete arse on here right now.


----------



## cesare (Jan 22, 2014)

V


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 22, 2014)

cesare said:


> Didn't Mark Von Bommel have to apologise for his bras d'honneur a few years back? And the bras d'honneur's got no anti-Semitic connotations; think you're barking up the wrong tree here Dexter.



Yeah since when did other rude gestures have owt to do with the Jews? Maybe they all secretly have a secret antisemitic meaning in order to communicate secret resistance signals against the illuminati and there's a conspiracy to cover it up? Dunno I'd rather just use them in their mainstream sheeple meaning myself!


----------



## co-op (Jan 22, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Yes Dexter , the famous french quenelle derives from anti-french longbowmen at agincourt.



Off topic but the two fingers are way older than Agincourt, it's the horn sign, means "you are a cuckold". Male insult to other men, based on the implication they have screwed the other's wife.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 22, 2014)

co-op said:


> Off topic but the two fingers are way older than Agincourt, it's the horn sign, means "you are a cuckold". Male insult to other men, based on the implication they have screwed the other's wife.


Either way, in his defence of open anti-semitism he's confused the arm/fist thing for being a noted british thing and with another gesture entirely.


----------



## co-op (Jan 22, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Either way, in his defence of open anti-semitism he's confused the arm/fist thing for being a noted british thing and with another gesture entirely.



Oh yes he's well confused and the quenelle is obviously anti-semitic. It's just the Agincourt two-fingers thing, it's wrong.


----------



## elbows (Jan 22, 2014)

Gotta say that once Anelka made the gesture but before the thread started, I did do research into the quenelle which suggested it was a combination of nazi salute and _bras d'honneur.
_
So I reckon it should be possible to acknowledge some of the possible origins of the detail of the physical gesture without trying to imply anything about it somehow not being anti-semitic. It doesn't matter if its a nazi salute merged with the bras d'honneur or a nazi salute merged with an ostrich dance, its still got some nazi salute in it and is associated with anti-semitic views.


----------



## DexterTCN (Jan 22, 2014)

MellySingsDoom said:


> He made the gesture fully knowing about its connotations, and what Dioudonne "invented" it for.
> 
> Please, for the love of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, go back and read this thread again.  You're making yourself look a complete arse on here right now.


Sorry...we haven't talked before, I don't think.

The people who are saying Anelka is an anti-semite...well they're saying I'm an anti-semite.

And I'm not.   So you see my problem?

I'm very unlikely to listen to them on the subject.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 22, 2014)

Those people who say dexter is jesus, well i think dexter is jesus. You see the problem that people who think that dexter is jesus are faced with? Why should people who don't think dexter are jesus be listened to?

How about having a listen to and think about the _content _of peoples arguments dexter you juvenile old man?


----------



## chilango (Jan 22, 2014)

DexterTCN said:


> So you're saying Anelka is an anti-semite and that was his intention.



Nope.

I'm saying Anelka made an anti-Semitic gesture.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 22, 2014)

DexterTCN said:


> Yes..I'm a cunt for pointing out the in the UK there is a similar physical expression of derision.
> 
> Up yours.  Right up yours.  All the way....up.



Nope, there isn't. You missed out an important part of the gesture, you two-bob tosser.


----------



## MellySingsDoom (Jan 22, 2014)

DexterTCN said:


> Sorry...we haven't talked before, I don't think.
> 
> The people who are saying Anelka is an anti-semite...well they're saying I'm an anti-semite.
> 
> ...



Hello Dexter

Personally speaking, I've no idea whether you're an anti-Semite or not.  If you say that you are not one, then I'll take your word for it.

As for my previous postings to you, they still stand:  your take on the Anelka quenelle is completely wrong-headed, I'm afraid.  If you had been following this thread from the very beginning, you would have seen that the whole quenelle business has been tackled and analysed head-on, and it became clear very, very quickly here what the true intent and meaning of the quenelle is all about.  The evidence for the meaning and signification of said gesture is clear for all to see, and Dioudonne's own comment of it being an "anti-establishment" gesture has been shown up here to be absolute bullshit of the highest order.

As I said in a previous posting here, any so-called "anti-establishment" intent of said quenelle has been completely transformed into an anti-Semitic trope, by its adoption by anti-Semites and general fascist/racist loons of every stripe imaginible - just look at that fascist clown Alain Soral performing said gesture at the Holocaust Memorial site in Berlin...are you seriously suggesting that Soral was being "anti-establishment" there?  Was just saying "up yours/fuck you"?  Because if you are - and you seem to be sincere in this belief - then you're being incredibly naive, to say the least.  Dioudonne may have been a "leftist" once upon a lifetime ago, but those days are well, well past, and his racist obssesion with Jewish people puts him firmly in the far-rightist camp - small wonder that he's so pally with the likes of Le Pen senior and Robert Faurisson, not to mention various French Third Positionist types.  As a friend of mine said to me, Dioudonne "manages to attract a certain stripe of idiot on the left who mistakes his anti-Semitism for anti-Zionism".  Dioudonne knows very well what game he's playing, and if anything, the current fuss has simply hardened his anti-Semitic views even more.

As I said before, do yourself a favour - read this entire thread from page one onwards, then come back and give us your point of view then, and not before.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 22, 2014)

DexterTCN said:


> Sorry...we haven't talked before, I don't think.
> 
> The people who are saying Anelka is an anti-semite...well they're saying I'm an anti-semite.
> 
> ...



No, they're not saying you're an anti-Semite.
They're saying you're a cunt, a _nogoodnik_, and an apologist for an anti-semite.

Totally different thing, you soiled tossrag.


----------



## Favelado (Jan 22, 2014)

Still, This is good news for @casuallyred who was losing the thread until 24 hours ago.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 22, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Those people who say dexter is jesus, well i think dexter is jesus. You see the problem that people who think that dexter is jesus are faced with? Why should people who don't think dexter are jesus be listened to?
> 
> How about having a listen to and think about the _content _of peoples arguments dexter you juvenile old man?



Hey, I'll happily think of him as Jesus if it means he'll be crucified!


----------



## DexterTCN (Jan 22, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> No, they're not saying you're an anti-Semite.
> They're saying you're a cunt, a _nogoodnik_, and an apologist for an anti-semite.
> 
> Totally different thing, you soiled tossrag.



Oh they've specifically called me an anti-semite...you must not be reading it (because it doesn't suit you).

_You're_ calling me a cunt.   Not anyone else (so far).

You're calling me an apologist for Anelka...saying he's an anti-semite so I support him.

I'm saying you've not proved anything against him.   All you've done is go on about other people and posted pictures of white people outside memorials.

You've presented no proof, that I have seen, that Anelka is an anti-semite.

And bear in mind....you're an aggressive, accusatory and offensive person.   But you can do that with me, it's allowed...I'm not an 'ism'.   That makes it ok.


----------



## Favelado (Jan 22, 2014)

DexterTCN said:


> Oh they've specifically called me an anti-semite...you must not be reading it (because it doesn't suit you).
> 
> _You're_ calling me a cunt.   Not anyone else (so far).
> 
> ...



You need to read at least some of the thread. It'd be hard to get here and post the way you are doing if you had. Go on, just give it a scan.


----------



## DexterTCN (Jan 22, 2014)

Favelado said:


> You need to read at least some of the thread. It'd be hard to get here and post the way you are doing if you had. Go on, just give it a scan.


Why don't you just link to some posts about Anelka


----------



## Favelado (Jan 22, 2014)

DexterTCN said:


> Why don't you just link to some posts about Anelka



I can link to many that show him doing an unambiguous anti-semitic gesture. It's absolutely definitely an anti-semitic gesture that he used in support of a famous anti-semite, who is his mate.

Want to join the dots? I bet you're good at that. Books full of joining the dots at your house.


----------



## brogdale (Jan 22, 2014)

DexterTCN said:


> Why don't you just link to some posts about Anelka



There has been discussion in this thread regarding the extent to which the quenelle can be interpreted as an 'anti-authoritarian' or anti-semitic, and  I think it fair to say that most posters have decided upon the latter.

In saying this:-



> *....in the UK there is a similar physical expression of derision.*



...youre defending Anelka from any accusation of anti-semitism or offence.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 22, 2014)

it was a very amusing joke to say the quennelle was merely a half 'up-yours' but nobody could mean that seriously could they? It makes no sense. It's like saying sieg hieling is just reaching for a high shelf


----------



## DexterTCN (Jan 22, 2014)

brogdale said:


> There has been discussion in this thread regarding the extent to which the quenelle can be interpreted as an 'anti-authoritarian' or anti-semitic, and  I think it fair to say that most posters have decided upon the latter.
> 
> In saying this:-
> 
> ...



Firstly...you're ignoring the accusations against me of anti-semitism.   Those same posters have decided I am guilty of it.  And I am not.   All my posts are in my history...do any kind of search you like.   I made a serious point with that.

Secondly....I'm not defending Anelka of anti-semitism or _offence_ (offence has not yet been outlawed, judging by urban).   He hasn't yet had a charge to answer.


----------



## MellySingsDoom (Jan 22, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> it was a very amusing joke to say the quennelle was merely a half 'up-yours' but nobody could mean that seriously could they? It makes no sense. It's like saying sieg hieling is just reaching for a high shelf



Or "oh look, Dioudonne is pointing at his shoes again".


----------



## MellySingsDoom (Jan 22, 2014)

Any views of my reply to you, DexterTCN?


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 22, 2014)

DexterTCN said:


> Firstly...you're ignoring the accusations against me of anti-semitism.   Those same posters have decided I am guilty of it.  And I am not.   All my posts are in my history...do any kind of search you like.   I made a serious point with that.
> 
> Secondly....I'm not defending Anelka of anti-semitism or _offence_ (offence has not yet been outlawed, judging by urban).   He hasn't yet had a charge to answer.


Up to date as ever. Didn't notice the fa charges at all?


----------



## Favelado (Jan 22, 2014)

DexterTCN said:


> Secondly....I'm not defending Anelka of anti-semitism.



Cool, because if you're his lawyer he's totally fucked.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 22, 2014)

I don't think anyone's accused you of antisemitism  I don't think you're antisemitic, if I did then you'd know about it.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 22, 2014)

By the way apologists for antisemites (or whoever) don't have to be antisemitic, racist, sexist etc themselves, they can just be a bit stupid, or not want to believe bad things about whoever the person is (like if they're say a famous footballer) 

Its like the SWP and all the party loyalists who had worked on women's issues for years not wanting to believe comrade delta was a rapist


----------



## DexterTCN (Jan 22, 2014)

Favelado said:


> Cool, because if you're his lawyer he's totally fucked.


If you're the witness for the prosecution then he's fine


----------



## DexterTCN (Jan 22, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> By the way apologists for antisemites (or whoever) don't have to be antisemitic, racist, sexist etc themselves, they can just be a bit stupid, or not want to believe bad things about whoever the person is (like if they're say a famous footballer)
> 
> Its like the SWP and all the party loyalists who had worked on women's issues for years not wanting to believe comrade delta was a rapist


What?

'apologists for anti-semites' are like refusing to believe someone is a rapist?

I'm not getting you.   I know you were just typing what you were thinking and it came out a bit wrong, I'm not taking cheap shots.   What did you mean?


----------



## MellySingsDoom (Jan 22, 2014)

DexterTCN said:


> What?
> 
> 'apologists for anti-semites' are like refusing to believe someone is a rapist?
> 
> I'm not getting you.   I know you were just typing what you were thinking and it came out a bit wrong, I'm not taking cheap shots.   What did you mean?



I get what frogwoman means - don't take someone's word on blind trust, just because they say they're not what they are (accurately) being pulled up on.  Again, Anelka's excuse/"explanation" is incredibly lame - as I said in my very first post here, he's either a blundering idiot at the very least, or a definite anti-Semite at the worst.


----------



## Favelado (Jan 22, 2014)

MellySingsDoom said:


> I get what frogwoman means - don't take someone's word on blind trust, just because they say they're not what they are (accurately) being pulled up on.  Again, Anelka's excuse/"explanation" is incredibly lame - as I said in my very first post here, he's either a blundering idiot at the very least, or a definite anti-Semite at the worst.



He's mates with a man who does holocaust songs and is one of the most famous anti-semites in France. How on earth wouldn't he know what the gesture meant? What do they talk about when they meet up? Free kick techniques?


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 22, 2014)

DexterTCN said:


> What?
> 
> 'apologists for anti-semites' are like refusing to believe someone is a rapist?
> 
> I'm not getting you.   I know you were just typing what you were thinking and it came out a bit wrong, I'm not taking cheap shots.   What did you mean?



I mean that if you're so convinced that someone isn't an antisemite in spite of all the evidence clearly showing they are (you saying that dieudonne isn't and the quenelle isn't) then the logic is a bit like - 'antisemites are cunts - I like anelka - anelka isn't a cunt - Anelkas mate isn't a cunt - neither of them are antisemitic' 

Its like those swappies who have been in the SWP for so long they confuse their liking for comrade delta with whether he could be guilty, because they like him and they don't like what he's accused of, therefore he couldn't have done it


----------



## brogdale (Jan 22, 2014)

DexterTCN said:


> Firstly...you're ignoring the accusations against me of anti-semitism.   Those same posters have decided I am guilty of it.  And I am not.   All my posts are in my history...do any kind of search you like.   I made a serious point with that.
> 
> Secondly....I'm not defending Anelka of anti-semitism or _offence_ (offence has not yet been outlawed, judging by urban).   He hasn't yet had a charge to answer.



I accept that you may not have realised it, but by using that single word, _*"similar", *_means that, in that context, you were specifically defending Anelka from the charge that he "made a gesture that was "abusive and/or indecent and/or insulting and/or improper" which was "an aggravated breach in that it included a reference to ethnic origin and/or race and/or religion or belief."


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 22, 2014)

MellySingsDoom said:


> I get what frogwoman means - don't take someone's word on blind trust, just because they say they're not what they are (accurately) being pulled up on.  Again, Anelka's excuse/"explanation" is incredibly lame - as I said in my very first post here, he's either a blundering idiot at the very least, or a definite anti-Semite at the worst.



Well Dieudonne is famous for antisemitism, he does songs about the holocaust, he campaigns on antisemitic political themes, he always goes on about Jews and has sketches where he takes the piss out of people in the holocaust and I'm sorry there's no way you could be his mate and not know this, I mean what do you think they talk about when they meet up??


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Jan 22, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Well Dieudonne is famous for antisemitism, he does songs about the holocaust, he campaigns on antisemitic political themes, he always goes on about Jews and has sketches where he takes the piss out of people in the holocaust and I'm sorry there's no way you could be his mate and not know this, I mean what do you think they talk about when they meet up??


yeh, but other than that, how could it be offensive....


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 22, 2014)

Favelado said:


> He's mates with a man who does holocaust songs and is one of the most famous anti-semites in France. How on earth wouldn't he know what the gesture meant? What do they talk about when they meet up? Free kick techniques?



The ref disallowing west ham's goals and how it means he's one of THEM


----------



## MellySingsDoom (Jan 22, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Well Dieudonne is famous for antisemitism, he does songs about the holocaust, he campaigns on antisemitic political themes, he always goes on about Jews and has sketches where he takes the piss out of people in the holocaust and I'm sorry there's no way you could be his mate and not know this, I mean what do you think they talk about when they meet up??



Well, exactly.  I really, really don't get why DexterTCN finds it impossible to understand the very simple and clear-to-understand point you make.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 22, 2014)

MellySingsDoom said:


> Well, exactly.  I really, really don't get why DexterTCN finds it impossible to understand the very simple and clear-to-understand point you make.



Yeah I know. Although I do wonder whether he has any other comedy routines or if it's just wall to wall banging on about the Jews all the time.


----------



## MellySingsDoom (Jan 22, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Yeah I know. Although I do wonder whether he has any other comedy routines or if it's just wall to wall banging on about the Jews all the time.



Yeah, exactly again - shades of the late, unlamented trampie and his "Jews control Parliament" wanking that both me and steph pulled him up on.


----------



## DexterTCN (Jan 23, 2014)

Come on that's like 4 posts...I can't sit and reply to them all. 

Froggy...am I an anti-semite?   I've been here 9 years or so.   You want to throw shit about anti-semites...you better stick up for those who are not when they're accused.   So you go on about Anelka and Diodenne.  You've been here all the time I have and you let that slide?

You call Anelka one, you stay silent when I'm called one.   Same difference to me.   See?

Is Anelka?  I don't know, I never presumed to know.  I don't recall ever reading anything he has ever said that was not to do with football. 

Of course...if the football association of england finds him guilty...that's all the proof anyone needs.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 23, 2014)

DexterTCN said:


> Come on that's like 4 posts...I can't sit and reply to them all.
> 
> Froggy...am I an anti-semite?   I've been here 9 years or so.   You want to throw shit about anti-semites...you better stick up for those who are not when they're accused.   So you go on about Anelka and Diodenne.  You've been here all the time I have and you let that slide?
> 
> ...




I haven't called anelka one.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 23, 2014)

DexterTCN said:


> Come on that's like 4 posts...I can't sit and reply to them all.
> 
> Froggy...am I an anti-semite?   I've been here 9 years or so.   You want to throw shit about anti-semites...you better stick up for those who are not when they're accused.   So you go on about Anelka and Diodenne.  You've been here all the time I have and you let that slide?
> 
> ...




I haven't called you one, I haven't called anelka one either ffs. You saying the quenelle isn't antisemitic is basically just because you like anelka and don't want to think he's like that.


----------



## DexterTCN (Jan 23, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> ... wall to wall banging on about the Jews all the time.


Cool.   I don't have any reason to converse with you on this.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 23, 2014)

DexterTCN said:


> Cool.   I don't have any reason to converse with you on this.



I was twlking about dieudonne not you.


----------



## MellySingsDoom (Jan 23, 2014)

Has DexterTCN put me on ignore?  Because if he has (or is deliberately ignoring my replies to him) then that's frankly piss-poor, and makes me think that he really has no arguments to offer in this case at all, other than "Anelka is innocent, m'kay?"


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 23, 2014)

I have actually gone out my way to say I dunno if anelka is one or not. Fair enough you like anelka and don't want to think he could be mates with scum, let alone be one himself, but you don't have to take criticism of anelka and chums as a personal attack ffs. Its like bolshiebhoy on the SWP thread going on about the SWP and how comrade delta is all right, it's the mentality of thinking that because you like a person (who you dont even know!) it means they aren't a cunt, guess what things dont work like that in the real world, I don't think you're an antisemite, you're being pretty daft here though.


----------



## DexterTCN (Jan 23, 2014)

MellySingsDoom said:


> Has DexterTCN put me on ignore?  Because if he has (or is deliberately ignoring my replies to him) then that's frankly piss-poor, and makes me think that he really has no arguments to offer in this case at all, other than "Anelka is innocent, m'kay?"


I had multiple replies.  The lady took priority.   m'kay?


----------



## MellySingsDoom (Jan 23, 2014)

I think I'm going to re-instate my point of DexterTCN being imbecilic here.  He's deliberately ignoring me, and keeps banging on about froggy accusing him of being anti-Semitic, when she has repeatedly said she has done no such thing.


----------



## MellySingsDoom (Jan 23, 2014)

DexterTCN said:


> I had multiple replies.  The lady took priority.   m'kay?



This literally came up when I sent my last post.  OK, I await your reply to me with great interest.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 23, 2014)

DexterTCN said:


> Cool.   I don't have any reason to converse with you on this.




Look I know it's hard when celebrities you like turn out to be cunts, I was a bit upset about Rolf Harris


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 23, 2014)

I'm sure lots of lib-dem voters were pretty annoyed about the broken promises too


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 23, 2014)

Rolfs not been convicted yet! 

tie me kangaroo down sport


----------



## DexterTCN (Jan 23, 2014)

MellySingsDoom said:


> This literally came up when I sent my last post.  OK, I await your reply to me with great interest.



I should leave you to discuss me in the first and third person.


MellySingsDoom said:


> I think I'm going to re-instate my point of DexterTCN being imbecilic here.  He's deliberately ignoring me, and keeps banging on about froggy accusing him of being anti-Semitic, when she has repeatedly said she has done no such thing.



You're asking for a reply on a contentious subject where most people have made up their minds and solidified their stance.   My view won't fit here.   I've said it before.  Hate is hate, if you hate then you're no better.   You're worse.

You said earlier that you didn't know if I was an anti-semite or not, but you keep bringing it up.   You're not saying I am...but you keep mentioning it.

Are you any better than those saying it?   Who do you defend?   Who do you attack?   What results do you get from those actions?

Like I said...my views don't fit in threads like this...but hey...free speech.


----------



## MellySingsDoom (Jan 23, 2014)

DexterTCN said:


> I should leave you to discuss me in the first and third person.
> 
> 
> You're asking for a reply on a contentious subject where most people have made up their minds and solidified their stance.   My view won't fit here.   I've said it before.  Hate is hate, if you hate then you're no better.   You're worse.
> ...



Dexter, in my first reply to you, I said that I would take your assertion that you are *NOT* an anti-semite as read, and did *NOT *bring up you being an anti-Semite at all.  Please don't put words into my mouth - it's not becoming of you, frankly.

Who said I hated you?  (Is this what you're inferring here?).  As for Dioudonne, I despise him for his outright anti-Semitism, that is true enough.  If you think that's "hate", instead of a matter of fact based on the evidence surrounding Dioudonne, then....well, I don't know what to make of that, really.  Put it this way - I'm not some complacent fucking middle class hippy who insists that we all love each other, and that "love" can conquer hate.  That sort of attitude is a complete cop-out, frankly.

Who said also I'm "better" than anyone else?  I've simply stated a case, based strictly on the facts and research from a wide variety of sources, that the quenelle is indeed an anti-Semitic gesture.  The evidence is clear and overwhelming, and has been presented time and again on this thread.  Did you take time out to go from page 1 and check out the details on this evidence?  If you haven't, I suggest you should do - you'll find the details therein instructive, to say the least.

And who's denying your right to free speech?  I'm certainly not, but I will challenge people's opinions on here (note: not just you) where I find them ill-informed or just plain ridiculous.

Your seeming refusal to engage with my points, and present your own counter-arguments, is frankly disappointing.  You could have put your case for the other side in some detail, and I would have listened to you and responded in due course.

I think that's covered all of the points raised by you.  I look forward to any further replies from you in due course.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 23, 2014)

DexterTCN said:


> I should leave you to discuss me in the first and third person.
> 
> 
> You're asking for a reply on a contentious subject where most people have made up their minds and solidified their stance.   My view won't fit here.   I've said it before.  Hate is hate, if you hate then you're no better.   You're worse.
> ...


What is this evasive waffle?


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 23, 2014)

I'd like to know who dexter thinks accused him of anti-semitism, and give examples


----------



## barney_pig (Jan 23, 2014)

I think the swp & delta case isn't the best example to use re diodenne and anelka, perhaps instead the swp and Gilda atzmon; an open anti Semite, defended and promoted by a group of people who would be horrified to be considered anti Semitic, in order to placate the music preferences of their national secretary, err comrade Delta.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 23, 2014)

barney_pig said:


> I think the swp & delta case isn't the best example to use re diodenne and anelka, perhaps instead the swp and Gilda atzmon; an open anti Semite, defended and promoted by a group of people who would be horrified to be considered anti Semitic, in order to placate the music preferences of their national secretary, err comrade Delta.


 
perhaps not, but i was comparing the attitude of people who don't think anelka could do any wrong because they like him and he's famous to people who don't think comrade delta could do any wrong because they like him and he's done "so many good things for the party"


----------



## barney_pig (Jan 23, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> perhaps not, but i was comparing the attitude of people who don't think anelka could do any wrong because they like him and he's famous to people who don't think comrade delta could do any wrong because they like him and he's done "so many good things for the party"


Like associate them with a notorious anti Semite and friend of fascists. It's odd he hasn't been snapped up by a PR company


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 23, 2014)

barney_pig said:


> Like associate them with a notorious anti Semite and friend of fascists. It's odd he hasn't been snapped up by a PR company


 
My mum took me to a gilad atzmon concert when i was 15 not realising or knowing that he was an anti-semite. I got a book by him at the concert "guide for the perplexed" - i found out shortly afterwards he was an anti-semite and stuck the book on the shelf and never read it. i found it in a load of stuff last month and chucked it in the bin


----------



## chilango (Jan 23, 2014)

DexterTCN 

I hope you're not saying that I've accused you of being an anti-Semite? 

I've been very deliberate with what I've said, and how I've said it.

I haven't even said that Anelka is an anti-Semite.

I've looked at the _quenelle_ and it's origins and meaning.

It is an anti-Semitic gesture, invented by a famous anti-semite who hangs around with the far-right/fascists.

That much is simple, and frankly not contentious. It's not secret. It's not hidden. It's all out in the open.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 23, 2014)

well said


----------



## brogdale (Jan 23, 2014)

brogdale said:


> There has been discussion in this thread regarding the extent to which the quenelle can be interpreted as an 'anti-authoritarian' or anti-semitic, and  I think it fair to say that most posters have decided upon the latter.
> 
> In saying this:-
> 
> ...



DexterTCN When you responded to this post, up-thread, instead of answering the substantive point I had made about your posting, you merely edited what I had written, to change the meaning, and offered up some pathetic persecution complex guff about what other posters are alleged to have called you.

I was attempting to discover whether or not you'd come onto the thread to consciously defend Anelka's position that he did not realise what had had 'said' with the gesture. IMO your posting was either trolling or you did seek to argue in favour of Anelka...for whatever reason.

How about answering this properly, eh?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 23, 2014)

DexterTCN said:


> Oh they've specifically called me an anti-semite...you must not be reading it (because it doesn't suit you).



Links to posts, please.



> _You're_ calling me a cunt.   Not anyone else (so far).



If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, best to call it a duck, no?



> You're calling me an apologist for Anelka...saying he's an anti-semite so I support him.



I haven't said that you "support" him. Perhaps you need to turn down your "hyperbole" setting?
I've said that you're an apologist for him. You've been disingenuous in the way you've repeatedly ignored most referent data about the origins and use of the quenelle, and attempted to put the onus on others to *absolutely* prove that what Anelka was doing was anti-Semitic.  Such actions may not appear to be apologism to you, it does to me and to others on this thread.



> I'm saying you've not proved anything against him.   All you've done is go on about other people and posted pictures of white people outside memorials.



If I straighten my right arm, bend it at the elbow, make a fist of my right hand and raise my forearm so that my fist is over my chest, then straighten the arm into an open-palmed salute, you can say "that's a salute used by troops in the Roman empire" (which it is), and use that fact to attempt to nullify claims that such a salute is fascist, as used by the Italian fascists (which it still is). If you use a gesture that's widely-understood (as the quenelle is widely-understood) to have a primary meaning that is anti-Semitic (have you looked at theFfrench print media on this, by the way? Every political stripe of newspaper appears to agree that the quenelle is anti-Semitic *and* anti-establishment, so any claim to ignorance about the anti-Semitic element either paints the quenellist as ignorant or dishonest), then you'll be held to account for it.
Do *you* believe that Anelka is so thick that he didn't know that the quenelle is anti-Semitic?  because unless you do, then your posts are apologia for the deliberate actions of an anti-Semite.



> You've presented no proof, that I have seen, that Anelka is an anti-semite.



If it walks lke a duck and quacks like a duck, it is invariably a canard.



> And bear in mind....you're an aggressive, accusatory and offensive person.   But you can do that with me, it's allowed...I'm not an 'ism'.   That makes it ok.



Yes, I am an "aggressive, accusatory and offensive person".  I absolutely loathe apologia. It's intellectually dishonest cheeseparing, the like of which lawyers do to get guilty clients off. It "gets my goat", and that's reflected in my language, you sententious arsewipe.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 23, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Well Dieudonne is famous for antisemitism, he does songs about the holocaust, he campaigns on antisemitic political themes, he always goes on about Jews and has sketches where he takes the piss out of people in the holocaust and I'm sorry there's no way you could be his mate and not know this, I mean what do you think they talk about when they meet up??



Tunisian date cake, obviously. Nothing about the perfidy of the Franco-Yids, or how Dreyfus was really guilty. Nothing about Dieudonne's slow metamorphosis into a populist right-winger and how he's carried his _banlieue_ audience with him, possibly to the advantage of the French hard right.
None of that political stuff, nah!


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 23, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> I'd like to know who dexter thinks accused him of anti-semitism, and give examples


"the rest of the english-speaking world" no doubt


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 23, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> I have actually gone out my way to say I dunno if anelka is one or not. Fair enough you like anelka and don't want to think he could be mates with scum, let alone be one himself, but you don't have to take criticism of anelka and chums as a personal attack ffs. Its like bolshiebhoy on the SWP thread going on about the SWP and how comrade delta is all right, it's the mentality of thinking that because you like a person (who you dont even know!) it means they aren't a cunt, guess what things dont work like that in the real world, I don't think you're an antisemite, you're being pretty daft here though.



I thought the argument revolved around whether he *knowingly* used an anti-Semitic gesture.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 23, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> What is this evasive waffle?



It's what is known as "evasive waffle". 

HTH.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 23, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> I thought the argument revolved around whether he *knowingly* used an anti-Semitic gesture.


 
i think dexter is arguing it's not anti-semitic at all


----------



## MellySingsDoom (Jan 23, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> i think dexter is arguing it's not anti-semitic at all



Tis true. His argument is that it's simply a "fuck you" gesture.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 23, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> i think dexter is arguing it's not anti-semitic at all



My French is pretty shite, but what I've seen looking on the various Francophone news sites, and on a couple of German news sites, is a pretty unambiguous acknowledgement that the quenelle is both anti-Semitic and anti-establishment - that it's a "fuck you" to the establishment generally, and to Jews specifically, however much individuals might waffle about how when they do it, it's *only* anti-establishment.

If dexter is indeed arguing that the queneele is not at all anti-Semitic, then he's either stupid or massively disingenuous and dishonest.


----------



## andysays (Jan 23, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> My French is pretty shite, but what I've seen looking on the various Francophone news sites, and on a couple of German news sites, is a pretty unambiguous acknowledgement that the quenelle is both anti-Semitic and anti-establishment - that it's a "fuck you" to the establishment generally, and to Jews specifically, however much individuals might waffle about how when they do it, it's *only* anti-establishment.
> 
> If dexter is indeed arguing that the queneele is not at all anti-Semitic, then he's either stupid or massively disingenuous and dishonest.



I think what DexterTCN is doing is merely *asserting* that it not anti-semitic rather than actually arguing.

When this thread started I had never previously heard of the quenelle or of Dieudonné, but I was fairly quickly convinced that it is anti-semitic in intent, whilst those who originated and use it attempt to hide behind claims it's merely "anti-establishment" (and we see that attempt by anti-semites in plenty of other contexts - it's not like it's original in this case).

Given the examples and arguments put forward on this thread, I think if Dexter really wants to argue a case, he needs to address at least some of those arguments, otherwise I'll compelled to agree with you that he is indeed either stupid or massively disingenuous and dishonest.


----------



## barney_pig (Jan 23, 2014)

This talk about anti- establishment and/ or anti Semitic is misleading. For dieudonne and his ilk the establishment is Jewish, to be anti establishment is to be anti Jew. This is what is meant by the term 'socialism of fools'.
  When someone claims their quenelle is an anti esablishment act, the establishment they are opposing is Jewish.


----------



## DexterTCN (Jan 23, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> I'd like to know who dexter thinks accused him of anti-semitism, and give examples





Delroy Booth said:


> Right Dexter hasn't bottled it, Dexter hates Jews and Israel and supports anyone who likes to have a go at the Jews....



There you go.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 23, 2014)

well this is sort of what i'm saying about who anti-semitism appeals to. "anti-establishment", anti-capitalist, "left wing", "alternative" but not pro working class, thinking they're more educated than "pasty-faced mobs" and that sort of thing - but not realising their politics could in some ways be described as far-right


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 23, 2014)

DexterTCN said:


> There you go.


 
Is that it?


----------



## andysays (Jan 23, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Is that it?



I'm rapidly moving towards both stupid and massively disingenuous and dishonest


----------



## TruXta (Jan 23, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Is that it?


What do you expect? As said before, Dexter's either thick as pig shit or trololololing.


----------



## TruXta (Jan 23, 2014)

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2014/jan/23/nicolas-anelka-jewish-quenelle



> But in a statement on the CRIF website, Cukierman has clarified his earlier views, and made clear Anelka's actions were disappointing.
> 
> "The _quenelle_ is a Nazi salute reversed, there's no doubt in my mind because this is the will of the one who created and popularised it for purely ideological ends," said Cukierman.
> 
> ...


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 23, 2014)

TruXta said:


> What do you expect? As said before, Dexter's either thick as pig shit or trololololing.


my money's on thick as pigshit.


----------



## DexterTCN (Jan 23, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Is that it?


All I can be arsed with.   Thought it was quite plain myself.  One definitive post about my alleged jew-hatery delivered as requested.

Not even a thank-you?  With the comments about me trolling etc. I'm just going to find more interesting discussions.

Enjoy.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 23, 2014)

DexterTCN said:


> There you go.


but is he right?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 23, 2014)

DexterTCN said:


> All I can be arsed with.   Thought it was quite plain myself.  One definitive post about my alleged jew-hatery delivered as requested.
> 
> Not even a thank-you?  With the comments about me trolling etc. I'm just going to find more interesting discussions.
> 
> Enjoy.


find them - and wreck them?


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 23, 2014)

DexterTCN said:


> All I can be arsed with.   Thought it was quite plain myself.  One definitive post about my alleged jew-hatery delivered as requested.
> 
> Not even a thank-you?  With the comments about me trolling etc. I'm just going to find more interesting discussions.
> 
> Enjoy.


 
You've been going on and on about how people are accusing you of anti-semitism (I didn't see any such accusations, and certainly haven't accused you of it myself) throughout te thread and then when asked you can only provide one example of it

Delroy hasnt posted on the thread for like a few weeks and you're going on about it like it's happening all the time


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 23, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> If dexter is indeed arguing that the queneele is not at all anti-Semitic, then he's either stupid or massively disingenuous and dishonest.



Or anti-semitic.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 23, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> You've been going on and on about how people are accusing you of anti-semitism (I didn't see any such accusations, and certainly haven't accused you of it myself) throughout te thread and then when asked you can only provide one example of it
> 
> Delroy hasnt posted on the thread for like a few weeks and you're going on about it like it's happening all the time


infamy! infamy! they've all got it infamy!







DexterTCN recently


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 23, 2014)

DexterTCN said:


> There you go.



So no-one's actually accused you of being anti-Semitic at all, have they?
because we all know (including you), that *that* was the only example you can find, and that the poster is actually being sarcastic.

You huge fucking plum.


----------



## andysays (Jan 23, 2014)

DexterTCN said:


> All I can be arsed with.   Thought it was quite plain myself.  One definitive post about my alleged jew-hatery delivered as requested.
> 
> Not even a thank-you?  With the comments about me trolling etc. I'm just going to find more interesting discussions.
> 
> Enjoy.



Thank you for finding the one post on the thread which supports your attempt to divert the argument into being all about you, and congratulations on your (inadvertant) demonstration that you can be both disingenuous/dishonest/trolling *and* thick as pigshit in expecting anyone to take you seriously


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 23, 2014)

DexterTCN said:


> All I can be arsed with.   Thought it was quite plain myself.  One definitive post about my alleged jew-hatery delivered as requested.



It's hardly "definitive", and if the post is read in context (hence why I asked you for *links*), then it's apparent that you're not being accussed, that Delroy Booth is being extremely sarcastic and mimicking your simplistic black and white worldview.



> Not even a thank-you?  With the comments about me trolling etc. I'm just going to find more interesting discussions.
> 
> Enjoy.



Do one.  In fact why not do two?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 23, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> You've been going on and on about how people are accusing you of anti-semitism (I didn't see any such accusations, and certainly haven't accused you of it myself) throughout te thread and then when asked you can only provide one example of it



Yup.  Last time I looked, "people" was the plural of "person", not interchangeable with it.



> Delroy hasnt posted on the thread for like a few weeks and you're going on about it like it's happening all the time



What a surprise! I'd never have guessed that dexter would be dishonest.  It's not like he's got form for...oh wait!


----------



## rekil (Jan 24, 2014)

Very soft skynews interview with Dieudonne. He's claiming it's an anti-slavery gesture.

http://news.sky.com/story/1199869/exclusive-dieudonne-breaks-silence-on-quenelle

To answer the earlier question about what the CRIF's Cukierman said.


> He told French newspaper Le Figaro the quenelle is only anti-Semitic when it is performed at a Jewish site.
> 
> "In a place that has no significance for Jews, it is merely an anti-establishment gesture which I feel does not warrant any harsh sanction," he said.
> 
> ...


Put that on your twitter machine Anelka.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 24, 2014)

Saw that last night.

What a load of shit.


----------



## fishfinger (Jan 24, 2014)

A quenelle malfunction


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 24, 2014)

copliker said:


> Very soft skynews interview with Dieudonne. He's claiming it's an anti-slavery gesture.
> 
> http://news.sky.com/story/1199869/exclusive-dieudonne-breaks-silence-on-quenelle
> 
> ...


 
Is he going to make 2014 the year of new beginnings? When the fuck did we get to the point where someone "clarifying something on twitter" is a substitute for a proper apology or anything?


----------



## rekil (Jan 24, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Saw that last night.
> 
> What a load of shit.


That's why the guardian piece on the berlin nazi pub prick came to mind. He thinks he's being clever. Le Pen is godfather to his one of his kids ffs. Why was that relationship not mentioned.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 24, 2014)

Wonder what Dieudonne's thoughts about what's happening in Ukraine currently are


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 24, 2014)

copliker said:


> That's why the guardian piece on the berlin nazi pub prick came to mind. He thinks he's being clever. Le Pen is godfather to his one of his kids ffs. Why was that relationship not mentioned.


 
Sickening to see him go on about slavery when his mates would love to bring it back.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 24, 2014)

And most of the people who died in the holocaust were poor agricultural labourers or people living in tenements in places like warsaw etc. not slave owners.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 24, 2014)

Just to hammer home this clowns views on the holocaust, this appeared in the NYT a day back:



> Today, a popular comic known as Dieudonné M’Bala M’Bala (his stage name is simply Dieudonné) claims *“not to know, between the Jews and Germans,” who’s telling the truth — “but I have my own little ideas on the subject.”* We know what those ideas are: Dieudonné invited onstage at one of his shows Robert Faurisson, a “theorist” of Holocaust denial, who argues that the extermination of the European Jews is a Jewish invention.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 24, 2014)

Ah yeah the sneering loathsome "nudge nudge wink wink we all hate jews secretly"


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 24, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Just to hammer home this clowns views on the holocaust, this appeared in the NYT a day back:


 
That;s an excellent piece.


----------



## rekil (Jan 24, 2014)

That was Sky's 'royal correspondent' who interviewed Dieudonne. 'He speaks French, yeah he'll do.'


----------



## Theisticle (Jan 24, 2014)

*BBC Sport* ‏@*BBCSport*  6m
Nicolas Anelka’s FA charge hearing into his ‘quenelle’ gesture not expected to begin until end of Feb to give his legal team time to prepare


----------



## MellySingsDoom (Jan 24, 2014)

DexterTCN said:


> All I can be arsed with.   Thought it was quite plain myself.  One definitive post about my alleged jew-hatery delivered as requested.
> 
> Not even a thank-you?  With the comments about me trolling etc. I'm just going to find more interesting discussions.
> 
> Enjoy.



Continued content-free support of Anelka in spite of the overwhelming evidence against him on the quenelle business, pointless near-trolling of other posters, and accusatory (and completely inaccurate) whining from you from beginning to end on this thread.  And you never even answered one of the many points I rasied for you here, either, not to mention the points raised by other Urbz here to you.  You're not very good at this discussion thing, are you?

So there we have it: DexterTCN, gone and very much forgotten.  Goodbye then, chief.


----------



## Teaboy (Jan 24, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> *BBC Sport* ‏@*BBCSport*  6m
> Nicolas Anelka’s FA charge hearing into his ‘quenelle’ gesture not expected to begin until end of Feb to give his legal team time to prepare



Ego wins over as expected.  He'll spend a small fortune now and end up with a 10 game ban.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 24, 2014)

Teaboy said:


> Ego wins over as expected.  He'll spend a small fortune now and end up with a 10 game ban.




and a lengthy examination of what the gesture means in a hearing should put to bed this nonsense about its just being an up yours.


----------



## Teaboy (Jan 24, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> and a lengthy examination of what the gesture means in a hearing should put to bed this nonsense about its just being an up yours.



Can you imagine just how horrible that hearing is going to be.  Highly paid briefs agonising over every tiny detail of what the gesture could mean and what it means in France.   I don't envy the FA panel who are going to have to sit through this one.

Nah he'll get the full racist foreigner 10 game ban, he'd get less if he was English a la John Terry.


----------



## cesare (Jan 24, 2014)

Teaboy said:


> Ego wins over as expected.  He'll spend a small fortune now and end up with a 10 game ban.


Ego and possibly the ideological point too


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 24, 2014)

Teaboy said:


> Nah he'll get the full racist foreigner 10 game ban, he'd get less if he was English a la John Terry.


how droll.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 24, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> and a lengthy examination of what the gesture means in a hearing should put to bed this nonsense about its just being an up yours.


Not for the people who want to use it and see it an anti-establishment (and by extension their participation in anti-semitism as anti-establishment). For them it will cement this idea.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 24, 2014)

Teaboy said:


> Can you imagine just how horrible that hearing is going to be.  Highly paid briefs agonising over every tiny detail of what the gesture could mean and what it means in France.   I don't envy the FA panel who are going to have to sit through this one.
> 
> Nah he'll get the full racist foreigner 10 game ban, he'd get less if he was English a la John Terry.


Horrible? It'll be hilarious. Not that we'll really know about it until it's finished.


----------



## cesare (Jan 24, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Not for the people who want to use it and see it an anti-establishment (and by extension their participation in anti-semitism as anti-establishment). For them it will cement this idea.


Exactly - it's a test case in order to try and gain traction for its future use


----------



## Teaboy (Jan 24, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Horrible? It'll be hilarious. Not that we'll really know about it until it's finished.



We clearly have a different idea of fun, I imagine just being in the room would sap the will to live straight from you.  It'll be like a 2 week long Dwyer thread but without the option of punching your monitor.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 24, 2014)

cesare said:


> Exactly - it's a test case in order to try and gain traction for its future use


From the anti-semitics side i can see why they might think that- but if they do, they've totally misjudged this country and the possibility of this idiocy ever catching on here.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 24, 2014)

Teaboy said:


> We clearly have a different idea of fun, I imagine just being in the room would sap the will to live straight from you.  It'll be like a 2 week long Dwyer thread but without the option of punching your monitor.


if you were in the room you'd have the chance of punching anelka though.


----------



## cesare (Jan 24, 2014)

Teaboy said:


> We clearly have a different idea of fun, I imagine just being in the room would sap the will to live straight from you.  It'll be like a 2 week long Dwyer thread but without the option of punching your monitor.


It'll be more like a race discrimination employment tribunal than that.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 24, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> From the anti-semitics side i can see why they might think that- but if they do, they've totally misjudged this country and the possibility of this idiocy ever catching on here.


 
agreed, i don't think anti-semitism will ever become a massive thing over here.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 24, 2014)

I also think part of the reason why some anti-semites are anti-semites in the UK is BECAUSE it's unpopular.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 24, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> agreed, i don't think anti-semitism will ever become a massive thing over here.


never say never

it's been quite large in the past


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 24, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> never say never


 
oh yeah don't get me wrong it is a problem.

i just don't think it's gonna be likely to be something popular with the public.


----------



## cesare (Jan 24, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> agreed, i don't think anti-semitism will ever become a massive thing over here.



I thought you were concerned about how much of it you're seeing at the moment, including via the conspiraloons who have gained some traction via occupy?


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 24, 2014)

cesare said:


> I thought you were concerned about how much of it you're seeing at the moment, including via the conspiraloons who have gained some traction via occupy?


 
I am actually a bit worried about it yeah because I don't think it's ever been this bad (that i remember) and yep i do think that it's increased quite a bit with things like conspiraloons etc, especially in terms of people into like "alternative" stuff.

However i don't think that it's ever gonna be a "mainstream" thing.

I hope not anyway.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 24, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> I am actually a bit worried about it yeah because I don't think it's ever been this bad.
> However i don't think that it's ever gonna be a "mainstream" thing.
> 
> I hope not anyway.


there was something of a spike in anti-semitism when the king david's hotel was blown up and the sergeants hanged, and of course there was the 1190 massacre of jews at york. rather worse than seen atm.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 24, 2014)

cesare said:


> I thought you were concerned about how much of it you're seeing at the moment, including via the conspiraloons who have gained some traction via occupy?


 
Yeah mate I am quite worried about it, I just can't see it becoming popular with ordinary people, I do worry how it's infected various things though especially on the left and some other stuff. I really really hope not anyway.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 24, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> there was something of a spike in anti-semitism when the king david's hotel was blown up and the sergeants hanged, and of course there was the 1190 massacre of jews at york. rather worse than seen atm.


 
yeah, see my edit.


----------



## cesare (Jan 24, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> I am actually a bit worried about it yeah because I don't think it's ever been this bad (that i remember) and yep i do think that it's increased quite a bit with things like conspiraloons etc, especially in terms of people into like "alternative" stuff.
> 
> However i don't think that it's ever gonna be a "mainstream" thing.
> 
> I hope not anyway.


The whole point of the quenelle is to hide/normalise the anti-semitism in the form of a popularist "anti-establishment" gesture.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 24, 2014)

anyway yeah it's friday afternoon, sorry, i explained in some other posts before about what I think is happening and who I think this sort of thing appeals to. Over the last year or so I've definitely heard a lot more of it. I also think those who kept their views to themselves before are becoming more bold in expressing them.

I also think that conspiracy theories are becoming increasingly commonly known about, I've met loads of random people in the last year who have talked about these types of conspiracies, other people I know have too. There's certainly an increase in these types of nutters and the extent to which it's becoming more commonly known about (especially with mates of mine that are into certain types of things, raves etc)

It does scare me. It really does, I think it's becoming more of a problem.

But I can't see it becoming as bad as it is in say france, or ukraine, I think the nature of anti-semitism in the UK (the fact that there aren't many jews, among other things) means that it will only appeal to a minority of people and that for a lot of them the popularity of it will come out of the fact that it's seen as socially unacceptable, that in their minds will equate to being anti-establishment or whatever.

i hope i'm right anyway.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 24, 2014)

cesare said:


> The whole point of the quenelle is to hide/normalise the anti-semitism in the form of a popularist "anti-establishment" gesture.


 
i know mate, but I don't want to scare myself too much. I do think it's a problem, and getting worse, based on what i've experienced and what people i know have.

but i don't think we should start panicking just yet


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 24, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> i know mate, but I don't want to scare myself too much. I do think it's a problem, and getting worse, based on what i've experienced and what people i know have.
> 
> but i don't think we should start panicking just yet


no, let's leave it a few weeks.


----------



## cesare (Jan 24, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> i know mate, but I don't want to scare myself too much. I do think it's a problem, and getting worse, based on what i've experienced and what people i know have.
> 
> but i don't think we should start panicking just yet


I don't think there's any reason to panic, but I do think it's a good thing to show it for what it is


----------



## cesare (Jan 24, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> no, let's leave it a few weeks.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 24, 2014)

so is a match or 10s ban the extent of what the FA can give out or does it include fines?


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 24, 2014)

cesare said:


> I don't think there's any reason to panic, but I do think it's a good thing to show it for what it is


 
Me too mate.

I wasn't trying to say it's not a problem at all. In my experience it's very unusual for jewish people to never experience it. But the majority of anti-semitism I've experienced has been from political types tbh. Out of everyone I work with at my current workplace, for example, I can't imagine any of them being anti-semitic.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 24, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> so is a match or 10s ban the extent of what the FA can give out or does it include fines?


no.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 24, 2014)

another one to be added to the outlook calendar



Pickman's model said:


> no, let's leave it a few weeks.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 24, 2014)

Maybe one of them is, you can't see inside everyone's heads. But I doubt it. Anti-semitism tends to be largely a middle class thing though in my experience (meaning that most of the anti-semites I've come across are pretty middle class, not that all middle class people are like that)


----------



## cesare (Jan 24, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> so is a match or 10s ban the extent of what the FA can give out or does it include fines?


A somewhat cursory glance at the current handbook (page 391) indicates a variety of sanctions: http://www.thefa.com/~/media/files/...-association/2013-14/fa-handbook-2013-14.ashx



> 8 PENALTIES
> 
> 
> 8.1  The Regulatory Commission shall have the power to impose any one or more of the following penalties on the Participant Charged:
> ...


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 24, 2014)

That's for a club. Max ten game ban and at least 40 grand fine for player (don't know the max but that's what Suarez got on same charges).


----------



## cesare (Jan 24, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> That's for a club. Max ten game ban and at least 40 grand fine for player (don't know the max but that's what Suarez got on same charges).


Aha. My rubbish scooting through 652 pages


----------



## andysays (Jan 24, 2014)

cesare said:


> It'll be more like a race discrimination employment tribunal than that.



Maybe, but it will depend how each side chooses to pursue it. There will be at least a possibility for it to descend into hair-splitting arguments about what exactly is meant by various terms within the charge



> An FA statement said: "It is alleged that, in the 40th minute of the fixture, Anelka made a gesture which was abusive and/or indecent and/or insulting and/or improper, contrary to FA Rule E3[1].
> 
> "It is further alleged that this is an aggravated breach, as defined in FA Rule E3[2], in that it included a reference to ethnic origin and/or race and/or religion or belief."



and so it may yet come to resemble reading a thread which gets derailed by a few disengenuous trolls, as indeed this one has at times.

Hope not though.


----------



## cesare (Jan 24, 2014)

andysays said:


> Maybe, but it will depend how each side chooses to pursue it. There will be at least a possibility for it to descend into hair-splitting arguments about what exactly is meant by various terms within the charge
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It's a lawyers' wet dream, at any rate.


----------



## elbows (Jan 24, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Maybe one of them is, you can't see inside everyone's heads. But I doubt it. Anti-semitism tends to be largely a middle class thing though in my experience (meaning that most of the anti-semites I've come across are pretty middle class, not that all middle class people are like that)



It is said that there is a long-standing 'relatively polite, upper-class anti-semitism' in Britain. And I've certainly heard of Jewish kids getting some stick at boarding school etc. But this isn't something I know much about.


----------



## Theisticle (Jan 24, 2014)

FIFA banned Josip Simunic for using a fascist chant so the FA have grounds to ban Anelka for at least 5-10 games. They should throw the book at him. Considering he's made no apology and is constantly deflecting blame. 

Here's a more explicit example of Dieudonne’s antisemitism. http://blog.thecst.org.uk/?p=4706


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 24, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> FIFA banned Josip Simunic for using a fascist chant so the FA have grounds to ban Anelka for at least 5-10 games. They should throw the book at him. Considering he's made no apology and is constantly deflecting blame.
> 
> Here's a more explicit example of Dieudonne’s antisemitism. http://blog.thecst.org.uk/?p=4706


throwing a 652-page book should make some impression on anelka


----------



## cesare (Jan 24, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> throwing a 652-page book should make some impression on anelka


I've now got a mental image of Anelka's quenelle reversing into a sieg heil to deflect the impact of a hurled FA handbook


----------



## andysays (Jan 24, 2014)

cesare said:


> It's a lawyers' wet dream, at any rate.



Not an image I really want to consider this close to tea time, but yes...


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 24, 2014)

elbows said:


> It is said that there is a long-standing 'relatively polite, upper-class anti-semitism' in Britain. And I've certainly heard of Jewish kids getting some stick at boarding school etc. But this isn't something I know much about.



I'm not sure if polite is the right word but Jewish kids at my school did tend to get quite a lot of abuse (I didn't tell anyone at that point) my sister was bullied a bit and antisemitism came into it, it stopped when we changed schools. I remember telling people at my new school about it and them being shocked. Dunno what it's like in boarding schools, I can imagine there's quite a lot of racism of all descriptions. 

The managers of the privare school i worked fir lsst year, they also liked to think they were progressive, had some anti-government views etc. They were the type of people who looked down on people they saw as uneducated.

Either way I'll say that in most workplaces I've been in apart from that place I've never had anything like that.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 24, 2014)

Also the antisemites I came across in the PSC - again white middle class, the type of people who could afford to do things like go to Palestine all the time, one of them had lived there and lived in a quite high powered job when he was there, another one was a homeopath or something  

The people who were actually of Palestinian descent themselves actually tended to have pretty sound politics tbh. In my experience anyway! (Although one of them was a lib-dem  ) he was a decent lad though, hopefully he's left


----------



## elbows (Jan 24, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> I'm not sure if polite is the right word but Jewish kids at my school did tend to get quite a lot of abuse (I didn't tell anyone at that point) my sister was bullied a bit and antisemitism came into it, it stopped when we changed schools.



I think the reference to polite was not the kids but what they became as adults. And polite meaning a particular way of wrapping horrible, bigoted stances in a layer of posh and semi-friendly language, as opposed to more vulgar but honest forms of abuse.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 24, 2014)

elbows said:


> I think the reference to polite was not the kids but what they became as adults. And polite meaning a particular way of wrapping horrible, bigoted stances in a layer of posh and semi-friendly language, as opposed to more vulgar but honest forms of abuse.



Yes, that's my experience too.


----------



## MellySingsDoom (Jan 24, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> Here's a more explicit example of Dieudonne’s antisemitism. http://blog.thecst.org.uk/?p=4706



Well done to the CST blog for translating Dioudonne's vile, openly anti-Semitic "song" into English, so that we  can all see/hear for ourselves Dioudonne's rampant unplesantness onstage, and further nailing the lie that Dioudonne is some sort of "anti-establishment" figure, instead of what is actually is.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 24, 2014)

Not keen on the CST but let's quote their translation in full:



> Shoah pineapple, sho sho sho pineapple, you take me by the shoah, I take you by the pineapple, Shoah pineapple.
> We mustn’t forget. There’s a way to make money. Sho sho sho pineapple.
> Shoah pineapple, shoah apricot. Shoah anise, shoah maggot, shoah artichoke. Shoah strawberry, shoah ice cream. Shoah chocolate. Shoah.
> Shoah pineapple, sho sho sho pineapple. You take me by the shoah, I’ll take you by the pineapple, sho sho sho pineapple.
> Darling pineapple I’ll never forget you. You’ve suffered so much. And for everything that you’ve suffered we want to give you reparations. We want you to be given a country in the sun, and millions of dollars for the millions of pineapples that were deported: for the millions of pineapples who lost their families let’s sing forever. Sho sho sho pineapple.


----------



## Theisticle (Jan 24, 2014)

* 1st December 2003: * Dieudonne appeared on the French Television channel "France 3" in a show called "You Can't Please Everybody". In the sketch he presented he was dressed up as a Nazi kamikaze rabbi and stated: "I have recently converted to the Fundamentalist Zionist religion…. I invite those youngsters who are viewing this in the suburbs [so I can] say to them 'Change your religion, as I did. Join the American-Zionist axis' ending with the shout "IsraeHeil".   The program's guest, for whom Dieudonne performed the act, Jamel Debbouze laughed. The program's presenter, Marc Olivier Fogiel, was very embarrassed but did not intervene. After a surge of reactions, "France 3" and Fogiel published an apology. The CSA (Conseil Superier de l'Audiovisuel) the Radio and Television Council, sent a sharp warning to France Television.

Video:


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 24, 2014)

Jamel Debbouze is huge in france and has been associated with this anti-semite clown for nearly 20 years now. Something is rotten over there. Here he is saying that _the clown is saying what what you're really thinking:_


----------



## rekil (Jan 24, 2014)

All of this is nasty but particularly the bit from 3.35-5.40



Spoiler


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 24, 2014)

Debbouze actually dissassociated himself from the anti-semitic clown in 2005 - guess why- for his massive racism and anti-semitism, and as such has been declared a 'traitor' by the clown and his right wing mates - and they are very busy trying to pin a murder on him.

edit: as did his one time comic partner Gad Elmaleh, calling him 'deeply anti-semitic'.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 24, 2014)

Casually Red said:


> carlos converted to Islam
> 
> eta
> 
> hes still claiming left wing basis for his position though


Yeah? Really? I guess that's why him and the anti-semitic  clown acted as joint witnesses to a gay marriage between a serial killer (not carlos, he was the other serial killer) and a normal murderer designed to ridicule the very idea of gay equality - attacking it as a jewish plot.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 24, 2014)

...and these free speech fundamentalists are at the same as demanding their clown be allowed speak threatening Nicolas Bedos with death for criticising him. It's like the Iranian revolution writ small.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 24, 2014)

What's he chanting about jews here at around 8mins? edit: ah no it's jus -tice.

One of his minder in that is one of batskin's trusted boys btw.


----------



## happie chappie (Jan 24, 2014)

[Here's a more explicit example of Dieudonne’s antisemitism. http://blog.thecst.org.uk/?p=4706[/quote]

My French is pretty much non-existent but this is even worse:



But remember folks - he's just anti-establishment and in no way an anti-Semite.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 24, 2014)

happie chappie said:


> [Here's a more explicit example of Dieudonne’s antisemitism. http://blog.thecst.org.uk/?p=4706
> 
> My French is pretty much non-existent but this is even worse:
> 
> ...




I don't want to click on that 

Going to curl up with a BBC crime drama I think. I'd prefer not to think about this any more.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 24, 2014)

That's the film that he got ahmindiijaad and the iranian holocaust deniers to fund. It's a full length film.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 24, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> That's the film that he got ahmindiijaad and the iranian holocaust deniers to fund. It's a full length film.




Wtf?? 

He's fucking OBSESSED isn't he??


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Jan 25, 2014)

still you can't prove Anelka is an anti-semite can you? eh eh


----------



## MellySingsDoom (Jan 25, 2014)

One from the "oh great, here we go then" department:  Gilad Atzmon has weighed in on his "blog" about Dioudonne...I stopped after the words "genius French comedian".  Couldn't be arsed to read any more.

And so has Icke too (didn't even bother looking at that rancid nonsense)...right, that's it - no more Twitter search term results looking for me for the next 24 hours at least.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 25, 2014)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> still you can't prove Anelka is an anti-semite can you? eh eh



I think all this prejudice against the so-called rich is really a veiled sort of disguised kind of anti-semitism.

http://www.businessinsider.com/tom-perkins-wsj-letter-2014-1


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 25, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> I think all this prejudice against the so-called rich is really a veiled sort of disguised kind of anti-semitism.
> 
> http://www.businessinsider.com/tom-perkins-wsj-letter-2014-1




FFS no it isn't.


----------



## Buckaroo (Jan 25, 2014)

"Writing from the epicenter of progressive thought, San Francisco, I would call attention to the parallels of fascist Nazi Germany to its war on its "one percent," namely its Jews, to the progressive war on the American one percent, namely the "rich."

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/tom-perkins-wsj-letter-2014-1#ixzz2rRMhcr50


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 25, 2014)

Buckaroo said:


> "Writing from the epicenter of progressive thought, San Francisco, I would call attention to the parallels of fascist Nazi Germany to its war on its "one percent," namely its Jews, to the progressive war on the American one percent, namely the "rich."
> 
> Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/tom-perkins-wsj-letter-2014-1#ixzz2rRMhcr50




That's complete bollocks though.


----------



## Buckaroo (Jan 25, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> That's complete bollocks though.



Yes it is.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 25, 2014)

And its actually quite antisemitic because its implying that all Jews are rich and that slagging off rich people is like slagging off the Jews whereas this is obviously not the case. I know many Jewish people who are on benefits, or working in shit jobs. There are some people who use a critique of capitalism as a cover for racism but you can't compare the super rich to a religious minority (who at the time of Nazi Germany were usually not rich at all) ffs.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 25, 2014)

Dieudonne, anelka and co are all part of the 1% ffs


----------



## Combustible (Jan 25, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> And its actually quite antisemitic because its implying that all Jews are rich and that slagging off rich people is like slagging off the Jews whereas this is obviously not the case.



I don't think he does do that. The person in that link doesn't claim that prejudice against the rich is veiled anti-semitism, rather he is drawing an analogy between the treatment of the rich by US 'progressives' and the treatment of Jews in Nazi Germany. Obviously it is a nonsensical and offensive analogy but it is a very different claim.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 25, 2014)

Combustible said:


> I don't think he does do that. The person in that link doesn't claim that prejudice against the rich is veiled anti-semitism, rather he is drawing an analogy between the treatment of the rich by US 'progressives' and the treatment of Jews in Nazi Germany. Obviously it is a nonsensical and offensive analogy but it is a very different claim.




Ah OK, I didn't read it. Lol that's such shit, the capitalist system is set up to benefit the ruling class ffs. How can anyone believe this shit, who does he think is ruling the country, Che fuckin Guevara?


----------



## revol68 (Jan 25, 2014)

wait till you here about Structural Anti Semitism...


----------



## J Ed (Jan 25, 2014)

Some idiot neoliberals love to pretend that anti-capitalism is basically just anti-Semitism, it lets them think that taking an ever increasingly large size of the pie and charging us for doing it is basically anti-racism.

Of course, there are some who are only too happy to play up to that. Cunts.


----------



## andysays (Jan 25, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> I think all this prejudice against the so-called rich is really a veiled sort of disguised kind of anti-semitism.
> 
> http://www.businessinsider.com/tom-perkins-wsj-letter-2014-1



That's because you're nothing but a trolling arse. Next you'll be telling us that the quenelle really is just anti-establishment rather than anti-semitic, and that those who use it are all left wing.

I really don't understand why some people have actually welcomed you back to continue your campaign of arrogant disengenuous nonsense.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 25, 2014)

revol68 said:


> wait till you here about Structural Anti Semitism...



I've talked about that before but like as in the contents of the Illuminati etx conspiracy theories being structural even without Jews being mentioned. (Which sooner or later they usually are) Not sure what it could mean besides that, and institutionalized racism


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Jan 25, 2014)

You're rubbish on this thread Phil. I was hoping your enforced break would have refreshed your skills but you're getting flabby and weak


----------



## revol68 (Jan 25, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> I've talked about that before but like as in the contents of the Illuminati etx conspiracy theories being structural even without Jews being mentioned. (Which sooner or later they usually are) Not sure what it could mean besides that, and institutionalized racism



There is a body of ideas derived from Frankfurt School and Value form theory that argues that critiques of financial capital are anti semitic as jews are equated with the financial sector versus productive capitalism.

It's a load of balls that ends up enforcing the stereotype of jews as bankers etc


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 25, 2014)

revol68 said:


> There is a body of ideas derived from Frankfurt School and Value form theory that argues that critiques of financial capital are anti semitic as jews are equated with the financial sector versus productive capitalism.
> 
> It's a load of balls that ends up enforcing the stereotype of jews as bankers etc



Well yeah I think that partial critiques of capitalism that ONLY talk about financial capital are dodge frankly, and I've said why a few times. But that doesn't mean nobody should ever talk about banks and finance at all


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 25, 2014)

revol68 said:


> There is a body of ideas derived from Frankfurt School and Value form theory that argues that critiques of financial capital are anti semitic as jews are equated with the financial sector versus productive capitalism.
> 
> It's a load of balls that ends up enforcing the stereotype of jews as bankers etc




Thing is I think there's something dodgy if someone is going on about financial capital being evil as opposed to 'good' productive capital, a lot of conspiracy theories rely on that and critiques of fractional reserve banking etc. But it's perfectly possible to talk about the financial sector without going into conspiracy la la land


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 25, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> That's complete bollocks though.



That's sorta the point.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 25, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Thing is I think there's something dodgy if someone is going on about financial capital being evil as opposed to 'good' productive capital, a lot of conspiracy theories rely on that and critiques of fractional reserve banking etc. But it's perfectly possible to talk about the financial sector without going into conspiracy la la land



It's also possible--indeed undeniable--to note that the financial sector has grown to dominate the economy over the last 20 or so years.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 25, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> It's also possible--indeed undeniable--to note that the financial sector has grown to dominate the economy over the last 20 or so years.



Not this again!


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 25, 2014)

andysays said:


> I really don't understand why some people have actually welcomed you back to continue your campaign of arrogant disengenuous nonsense.



But then again the list of the things you really don't understand would be a very long list indeed would it not?

You are not only the most repulsively sycophantic and disgustingly oleaginous poster these boards have yet produced, but also among the most stupid.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 25, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Not this again!



It's important, not least because it reveals the inherent tendency of capital _per se _to develop into autonomous representation.


----------



## andysays (Jan 25, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> But then again the list of the things you really don't understand would be a very long list indeed would it not?
> 
> You are not only the most repulsively sycophantic and disgustingly oleaginous poster these boards have yet produced, but also among the moist stupid.



Yes dear...


----------



## revol68 (Jan 25, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> It's also possible--indeed undeniable--to note that the financial sector has grown to dominate the economy over the last 20 or so years.



Andrew Kliman rejects that theory, for the US atleast, but just a common sense look at the UK suggest it's true of here.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 25, 2014)

andysays said:


> Yes dear...



Yes indeed.

You should take a good look at yourself. I've never seen anyone so transparently desperate to fit in anywhere.  You've even included a jibe at Laurie Penny in your tagline, you sycophantic crowd-following fool.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 25, 2014)

revol68 said:


> Andrew Kliman rejects that theory, for the US atleast, but just a common sense look at the UK suggest it's true of here.



It's true everywhere.  Deregulation happened so fast that most people didn't even notice until it was too late.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 25, 2014)

revol68 said:


> Andrew Kliman rejects that theory, for the US atleast, but just a common sense look at the UK suggest it's true of here.




Yeah the financial services sector is the largest (or one of the largest) economic areas in the UK isn't it? On a global scale I'd tend to agree with kliman tho


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 25, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Yeah the financial services sector is the largest (or one of the largest) economic areas in the UK isn't it? On a global scale I'd tend to agree with kliman tho



It's by far the largest everywhere.

How can anyone think the financial sector is dominant in the UK but not the USA?


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 25, 2014)

Isn't the argument though that a critique of capitalism that puts a disproportionate emphasis on going on about finance capital as opposed to productive capital is usually dodgy though rather than saying any criticism of finance and banking is dodgy...


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 25, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Isn't the argument though that a critique of capitalism that puts a disproportionate emphasis on going on about finance capital as opposed to productive capital is usually dodgy though rather than saying any criticism of finance and banking is dodgy...



But if financial capital is by far the most powerful sector of capital, why wouldn't one emphasize it?  One would be foolish not to emphasize it.

And what do you mean by "dodgy?"  This isn't another vague association between critique of financial capital and anti-semitism I trust?


----------



## redsquirrel (Jan 25, 2014)

MellySingsDoom said:


> One from the "oh great, here we go then" department:  Gilad Atzmon has weighed in on his "blog" about Dioudonne...I stopped after the words "genius French comedian".  Couldn't be arsed to read any more.
> 
> And so has Icke too (didn't even bother looking at that rancid nonsense)...right, that's it - no more Twitter search term results looking for me for the next 24 hours at least.


Strange how all these definitely not anti-semitic goons seem to orbit around each other. Must just be a coincidence.


----------



## Favelado (Jan 25, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> It's by far the largest everywhere.
> 
> How can anyone think the financial sector is dominant in the UK but not the USA?



Wait. Isn't it a myth about how much financial services actually contribute? I recall an article a couple of years back that despite everything from 1980 onwards, manufacturing is still its equal in GDP. I'll try and dig it up.

e2a It was a Guardian article that I can't find.

Wiki backs up the thrust of it though. Manufacturing adds more gross value to UK economy than financial services. It's not the biggest sector, even here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_the_United_Kingdom


----------



## andysays (Jan 25, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Yes indeed.
> 
> You should take a good look at yourself. I've never seen anyone so transparently desperate to fit in anywhere.  You've even included a jibe at Laurie Penny in your tagline, you sycophantic crowd-following fool.



Well Phil, if you were as all knowing as you think you are, you would know that's actually a reference to an nonsense accusation that was made of me by someone else a few months ago. If it's a jibe at anyone, it's a jibe at them not Laurie Penny. TBH, I'd forgotten all about it and although it's still in my profile it hasn't been my tagline for some time.

Keep on trollin'...


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 26, 2014)

Favelado said:


> Wait. Isn't it a myth about how much financial services actually contribute? I recall an article a couple of years back that despite everything from 1980 onwards, manufacturing is still its equal in GDP. I'll try and dig it up.
> 
> e2a It was a Guardian article that I can't find.
> 
> ...



What are you on about?  The article you cite says the opposite of what you claim:

"The service sector dominates the UK economy, contributing around 78% of GDP, with the financial services industry particularly important."

Please explain yourself.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 26, 2014)

andysays said:


> Well Phil, if you were as all knowing as you think you are, you would know that's actually a reference to an nonsense accusation that was made of me by someone else a few months ago. If it's a jibe at anyone, it's a jibe at them not Laurie Penny. TBH, I'd forgotten all about it and although it's still in my profile it hasn't been my tagline for some time.



You miss the point.

The point is that you are behaving in an _obsequious _fashion.  In your ardent desire to fit in here, you ape what you take to be the opinions and rhetorical mannerisms of what you take to be the majority or dominant trends.

You're making it so embarrassingly obvious that I assume your motivation is unconscious.  _Was _unconscious.


----------



## barney_pig (Jan 26, 2014)

How come you have lived this long without being glassed?


----------



## Buckaroo (Jan 26, 2014)

barney_pig said:


> How come you have lived this long without being glassed?



Fuck. I read that as "How come you have lived this long without being gassed?" Unconscious motivation?


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 26, 2014)

Sounds like something this French clown would say to a Jewish critic.


----------



## Buckaroo (Jan 26, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Sounds like something this French clown would say to a Jewish critic.



With a Jackie Mason accent "How come..etc"


----------



## barney_pig (Jan 26, 2014)

Buckaroo said:


> Fuck. I read that as "How come you have lived this long without being gassed?" Unconscious motivation?


Seeing how he gets hIs kicks denying genocide, perhaps.
Maybe things are different in academia, but if someone behaved as Dwyer in real life their chances of not getting a serious slapping would be zero.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 26, 2014)

barney_pig said:


> Seeing how he gets hIs kicks denying genocide, perhaps.
> Maybe things are different in academia, but if someone behaved as Dwyer in real life their chances of not getting a serious slapping would be zero.



And so would yours.


----------



## Favelado (Jan 26, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> What are you on about?  The article you cite says the opposite of what you claim:
> 
> "The service sector dominates the UK economy, contributing around 78% of GDP, with the financial services industry particularly important."
> 
> Please explain yourself.



There's a breakdown of the figures below. You just needed to carry on reading.


----------



## elbows (Jan 26, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> What are you on about?





> In 2011 the UK manufacturing sector generated approximately £140,539 million in gross value added and employed around 2.6 million people





> The UK financial services industry added gross value of £116,363 million to the UK economy in 2011


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 26, 2014)

Favelado said:


> There's a breakdown of the figures below. You just needed to carry on reading.



Can you quote it please?  I can't see it.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 26, 2014)

My point is that finance is the _end _of capital, in the senses of historical terminus, true nature and ultimate purpose.

Economists refer to the process by which money has conquered the economy as as "financialization."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financialization

But that is a euphemism, designed to disguise the fact that _all _capital is fictional.  Just as it is impossible rationally to define a discrete area of experience as "economic," so it is impossible rationally to isolate a specific sector of the "economy" as "financial."

As even economists themselves are slowly begining to recognize, "financialization" is best understood through more traditional terminology:

"Michael Hudson described financialization as "a lapse back into the pre-industrial usury and rent economy of European feudalism."

*^* http://www.counterpunch.org/2003/08...-tech-bubble-an-interview-with-michael-hudson

The only problem with that comment is its assumption that financialization is a retrograde development.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 26, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> productive capital



This is the concept that needs to be criticized.

There is no such thing as productive capital.  There can't be, because capital does not exist. 

The problem is that many people on the "Left" still believe that financialization is an anomolous development within capitalism.  It is not.  It is capitalism's true essence laid bare.

Unless and until the "Left" assimilates this fact into its analysis, all that remains of that analysis will be the monosyllabic gruntings of Barney Pig and his ilk.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 26, 2014)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> You're rubbish on this thread Phil. I was hoping your enforced break would have refreshed your skills but you're getting flabby and weak



Ern v2.0 was bad enough, dwyer v2.0 is to trolldom, what a minnow is to a shark.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 26, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Not this again!



He *has* to constantly reiterate his ideas, froggie.
How else is he supposed to make a living, if not by publicising ideas around which his writings are centred?


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 26, 2014)

revol68 said:


> There is a body of ideas derived from Frankfurt School and Value form theory that argues that critiques of financial capital are anti semitic as jews are equated with the financial sector versus productive capitalism.



It's more that Judaism has been constructed (by Christians) as a creed which is peculiarly sympathetic to capitalism, largely on the grounds of its allegedly carnal or objectified nature.

Obviously that has nothing to do with Judaism _per se._


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 26, 2014)

barney_pig said:


> How come you have lived this long without being glassed?



Because the phildwyer represented to us on these boards by his professorial _alter ego_ is nowhere near as emollient and oleaginous as the professorial _alter ego_ is.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 26, 2014)

barney_pig said:


> Seeing how he gets hIs kicks denying genocide, perhaps.
> Maybe things are different in academia, but if someone behaved as Dwyer in real life their chances of not getting a serious slapping would be zero.



Even dwyer doesn't behave as dwyer in real life. He's an internet _provocateur_. 
Plus, I'm sure he can handle himself.  He *is* from Barry, after all.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 26, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> It's more that Judaism has been constructed (by Christians) as a creed which is peculiarly sympathetic to capitalism, largely on the grounds of its allegedly carnal or objectified nature.
> 
> Obviously that has nothing to do with Judaism _per se._




It can be, but then so can Christianity - wasn't that one of Weber's theories about the Protestant work ethic and the spirit of capitalism?


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 26, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> It can be, but then so can Christianity - wasn't that one of Weber's theories about the Protestant work ethic and the spirit of capitalism?



Weber's theory is specifically about Calvinist predestination, not Protestantism in general as is popularly supposed--and certainly not about Christianity.

The argument is that uncertainty about one's eternal abode produces the desire to perceive signs of God's favor in one's life, and hence an unconscious but imperative need for earthly success.

It's patent bollocks, basically.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jan 26, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Weber's theory is specifically about Calvinist predestination, not Protestantism in general as is popularly supposed--and certainly not about Christianity.
> 
> The argument is that uncertainty about one's eternal abode produces the desire to perceive signs of God's favor in one's life, and hence an unconscious but imperative need for earthly success.
> 
> It's patent bollocks, basically.


That sounds like a pretty accurate description of certain kinds of contemporary fuck-nut r/w American evangelical Christianity - 'I'm rich because God likes me.'


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 26, 2014)

littlebabyjesus said:


> That sounds like a pretty accurate description of certain kinds of contemporary fuck-nut r/w American evangelical Christianity - 'I'm rich because God likes me.'



Yes.  However there is a slight problem with their argument: most evengelicals are in fact poor.

According to Weber, this is why they are all mad and stuff.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 26, 2014)

Here's the video of Dieudonne's award and public embrace of  noted holocaust denier Robert Fauurisson - note the person he gets to present the award and kiss Faurisson has been made to wear the Judenstern - the yellow star that the nazis made the jews wear  and dressed in concentration camps clothes (This is Jacky Sigaux, who i think is jewish and also starred in the anti-semitic film anti-semite alongside both Faurisson and Dieudonne). Listen top the cheers and roaring for Faurisson - not just his entrance but for the holocaust denial views he puts across.

You'll note also, on the top left a video of Dieundonne's political mate and former party ally Alain Soral has a video explaining why the negationist Faurisson 'is right'.


----------



## isvicthere? (Jan 26, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> This is the concept that needs to be criticized.
> 
> There is no such thing as productive capital.  There can't be, because capital does not exist.
> 
> ...



Not sure about capital, but the phrase "unless and until" really boils my piss. It's like "over and above" or "cool, calm and collected". 
_
<goes off contemplating a new thread>_


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 26, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Here's the video of Dieudonne's award and public embrace of  noted holocaust denier Robert Fauurisson - note the person he gets to present the award and kiss Faurisson has been made to wear the Judenstern - the yellow star that the nazis made the jews wear  and dressed in concentration camps clothes (This is Jacky Sigaux, who i think is jewish and also starred in the anti-semitic film anti-semite alongside both Faurisson and Dieudonne). Listen top the cheers and roaring for Faurisson - not just his entrance but for the holocaust denial views he puts across.
> 
> You'll note also, on the top left a video of Dieundonne's political mate and former party ally Alain Soral has a video explaining why the negationist Faurisson 'is right'.




That is so fucked up.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 26, 2014)

I deleted someone off fb (who had posted 911 and 7/7 conspiracy vids in the past) for posting up a video defending dieudonne and going on about 'zionism' the other day.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Jan 26, 2014)

How can you say Dioudonne, his gesture and his mates are right wing anti Semites? Where is the evidence?


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 26, 2014)

Here's two pieces in the left-wing counter-punch (and echoed in the left wing Monthly Press milieu) defending Dieudonne. They are both notable for their utter ignorance of what Dieudonne is up to his eyeballs in politically (the Soral/batskin/NF/Le Pen stuff) and their high handed _he talks for the youth_ spiel - this from a pampered a academic who knows nothing of the banlieu's and with her own record of denial and negationism that thinks the NF are left-wing) as well as their attempts to evade the issue and blur the lines of debate by suggesting that the state is bad and does bad things therefore whatever the state doesn't like is both good in itself and damgaging for the state. This is the logic of anti-imperialism used domestically to ridiculous effect.

The Bête Noire of the French Establishment

Blasphemy in Secular France


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jan 26, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Yes.  However there is a slight problem with their argument: most evengelicals are in fact poor.


'They're rich because God likes them. I must become more like them.'

Fits perfectly. The rich evangelist urges his flock to become more like him. 
_
And, lo, they saw that it was good to become more like him, for he was rich, and God loved him_.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 26, 2014)

I'm really not keen on CounterPunch tbh butchersapron


----------



## Idris2002 (Jan 26, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Here's two pieces in the left-wing counter-punch (and echoed in the left wing Monthly Press milieu) defending Dieudonne. They are both notable for their utter ignorance of what Dieudonne is up to his eyeballs in politically (the Soral/batskin/NF/Le Pen stuff) and their high handed _he talks for the youth_ spiel - this from a pampered a academic who knows nothing of the banlieu's and with her own record of denial and negationism that thinks the NF are left-wing) as well as their attempts to evade the issue and blur the lines of debate by suggesting that the state is bad and does bad things therefore whatever the state doesn't like is both good in itself and damgaging for the state. This is the logic of anti-imperialism used domestically to ridiculous effect.
> 
> The Bête Noire of the French Establishment
> 
> Blasphemy in Secular France


As far as I can see, she puts the concept "multiculturalism" in a French culture where it's actually not appropriate (everyone is supposed to be a French citizen, in theory at least). So yeah, "pampered academic who knows nothing" is right.

Wasn't she unsound on the Yugoslav wars, by the way? Is that what  you mean by her own record of negationism?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jan 26, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Here's two pieces in the left-wing counter-punch (and echoed in the left wing Monthly Press milieu) defending Dieudonne. They are both notable for their utter ignorance of what Dieudonne is up to his eyeballs in politically (the Soral/batskin/NF/Le Pen stuff) and their high handed _he talks for the youth_ spiel - this from a pampered a academic who knows nothing of the banlieu's and with her own record of denial and negationism that thinks the NF are left-wing) as well as their attempts to evade the issue and blur the lines of debate by suggesting that the state is bad and does bad things therefore whatever the state doesn't like is both good in itself and damgaging for the state. This is the logic of anti-imperialism used domestically to ridiculous effect.
> 
> The Bête Noire of the French Establishment
> 
> Blasphemy in Secular France



Interesting that she compares Dieudonne to Finkelstein. I don't agree with everything Finkelstein says, by any means, but he's an example of someone who manages to criticise the political use of Holocaust memory without falling into the trap of denying or belittling the Holocaust. Odd that the author here can't see the difference between that and sharing a stage with moronic Holocaust-denialist 'historians'.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 26, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> As far as I can see, she puts the concept "multiculturalism" in a French culture where it's actually not appropriate (everyone is supposed to be a French citizen, in theory at least). So yeah, "pampered academic who knows nothing" is right.
> 
> Wasn't she unsound on the Yugoslav wars, by the way? Is that what  you mean by her own record of negationism?


Yep, that's her.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 26, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> I'm really not keen on CounterPunch tbh butchersapron


It can be good/useful now and again - but not crucial by any means.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 26, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> this from a pampered a academic who knows nothing of the banlieu's and with her own record of denial and negationism that thinks the NF are left-wing



She doesn't think the NF are left-wing.

Like most sensible people, she believes that the "left/right" metaphor is inaedquate to describe C21st political orientations.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 26, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> Wasn't she unsound on the Yugoslav wars, by the way?



By "unsound" do you mean: (a) wrong, (b) crazy, (c) having an opinion different from my own?


----------



## Idris2002 (Jan 26, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> By "unsound" do you mean: (a) wrong, (b) crazy, (c) having an opinion different from my own?



Anyone who fits under "(c)" is by definition "(a)" and "(b)" as well.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 26, 2014)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Interesting that she compares Dieudonne to Finkelstein. I don't agree with everything Finkelstein says, by any means, but he's an example of someone who manages to criticise the political use of Holocaust memory without falling into the trap of denying or belittling the Holocaust.



Really?  There are plenty of people around who view Finkelstein as belittling the Holocaust.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 26, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> Wasn't she unsound on the Yugoslav wars, by the way? Is that what  you mean by her own record of negationism?



Seriously though, this is ridiculous.

You (and you're not alone on this thread) seem to be extending the principle that Holocaust denial is no part of legitimate political discourse (with which I agree) to all sorts of other historical conflicts: the Yugoslav wars, the war of Turkish Liberation etc.

At this rate, you'll soon have a line on just about any war anywhere--and those who differ will be deemed not merely wrong but "unsound."

That will deprive the Holocaust of its unique status.  Which would be a very silly thing to do.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 26, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Here's two pieces in the left-wing counter-punch (and echoed in the left wing Monthly Press milieu) defending Dieudonne.



That would be the "right-wing" Dieudonne I suppose?

Strange that a "right-winger" should be defended by "left-wingers" innit?

Either someone is misrepresenting themselves, or the terms "right-wing" and "left-wing" are obsolete.


----------



## Idris2002 (Jan 26, 2014)

phildwyer in his head:







phildwyer in real life:


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 26, 2014)

Pretty pathetic Idris, I thought you capable of more.


----------



## Idris2002 (Jan 26, 2014)

I'll no waste ma' gud stuff oan the likes of you, ya eejit.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 26, 2014)

She's got links with dodgy Serb nationalists, she's been mentioned a few times here before.


----------



## brogdale (Jan 26, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> That would be the "right-wing" Dieudonne I suppose?
> 
> *Strange* that a "right-winger" should be defended by "left-wingers" innit?
> 
> Either someone is misrepresenting themselves, *or* the terms "right-wing" and "left-wing" are obsolete.



Why strange to you? You have already stated your view in this thread that right/left wing no longer exist, so why the "or"? Of have you been 'mis-repsenting' yourself?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jan 26, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Really?  There are plenty of people around who view Finkelstein as belittling the Holocaust.


But he doesn't. As far as I know, he's very careful not to, because to do so would be totally self-defeating. That's one of the biggest problems here - the likes of Dieudonne do immense harm to the Palestinian cause.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jan 26, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> That will deprive the Holocaust of its unique status.  Which would be a very silly thing to do.


Why would that be a very silly thing to do? Denying the space to make the argument (and the argument is surely there to be made) that the Holocaust is sadly far from unique is a very dangerous thing to do. Shutting down that argument by screaming anti-Semitism at it is a very wrong thing to do.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 26, 2014)

That's not what Johnstone does though. She doesn't say that the holocaust is not unique as far as I know. She has defended some very very dodgy political positions though.

To give some idea of her politics she was part of the 'committee to defend slobodan milosevic' and wrote that the srebrenica massacre did not happen or was greatly exaggerated. Now we definitely weren't told the truth in every way about what happened in the Balkans and Serbian atrocities were exaggerated and massacres of Serbs played down in the media, she is an apologist for some extremely dodgy people however, and while I'm not sure she's an antisemite her view of dieudonne would fit with her pro-russian 'anti imperialism'


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jan 26, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> That's not what Johnstone does though. She doesn't say that the holocaust is not unique as far as I know. She has defended some very very dodgy political positions though.
> 
> To give some idea of her politics she was part of the 'committee to defend slobodan milosevic' and wrote that the srebrenica massacre did not happen or was greatly exaggerated.


Ok. I know nothing about her, tbh. Sounds like she has fallen into the trap of feeling the need to defend one side in order to point out the wrongs of the other side. There are plenty of things to be said about the KLA and their nastiness, but you don't have to deny Milosevic's nastiness in order to say them.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 26, 2014)

brogdale said:


> Why strange to you? You have already stated your view in this thread that right/left wing no longer exist, so why the "or"? Of have you been 'mis-repsenting' yourself?



I was being ironic yo.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 26, 2014)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Ok. I know nothing about her, tbh. Sounds like she has fallen into the trap of feeling the need to defend one side in order to point out the wrongs of the other side. There are plenty of things to be said about the KLA and their nastiness, but you don't have to deny Milosevic's nastiness in order to say them.



Its more than that. Her views are regularly published on right-wing Serbian websites. 

http://www.newleftproject.org/index...a_fools_account_a_response_to_diane_johnstone


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 26, 2014)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Why would that be a very silly thing to do? Denying the space to make the argument (and the argument is surely there to be made) that the Holocaust is sadly far from unique is a very dangerous thing to do. Shutting down that argument by screaming anti-Semitism at it is a very wrong thing to do.



I wouldn't say that it's necessarily anti-semitic to deny the unique status of the Holocaust. 

But it is certainly an argument of which anti-semites are very fond.

The truth is that the Holocaust was indeed a unique event, for the following reasons (among many others): its victims were entirely civilian; it was rationalized on pseudo-scientific grounds; it aimed at the extermination of every Jew in the world; it took place in a self-consciously "advanced" society; it was conducted by highly-organized bureaucratic means; and above all its sheer scale dwarfs any remotely comparable event.

There's plenty more, but I imagine this will suffice.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 26, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> I'll no waste ma' gud stuff oan the likes of you, ya eejit.



Where did you learn Yiddish?


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 26, 2014)

http://greatersurbiton.wordpress.com/tag/diana-johnstone/

Another one



> without being able to produce a single piece of evidence that Ramic was either anti-Semitic, or that he supported jihad [since the articles in question are extremely libellous, I'm not going to link to them].
> 
> The basis for the accusation was the claim that Ramic was a member of the editorial board of a Bosnian journal called _‘Korak‘_, that has published some viciously anti-Israel articles. The articles in question were, indeed, viciously anti-Israel. But Ramic is not a member of the editorial board of the journal in question, so the accusation is totally false. The second basis for the accusation is that _Korak_‘s editor, Asaf Dzanic, is a member of the IRGC’s board of directors. Yet, as anyone can see from the IRGC’s website, its board of directors is very large and diverse, numbering over 120, and includes several eminent Jewish members, including the famous Holocaust survivor Elie Wiesel. Most of these members, including Dzanic, are in the capacity of an ‘International Team of Experts’. The website also carries a powerful defence of the IRGC from the smears of Trifkovic and the ‘Lord Byron Foundation for Balkan Studies’, written by the Israeli writer Marjan Hajnal – also a member of the IRGC’s board of directors. The smearing of the entire institute as ‘Jew-hating’ and its director as ‘jihadi’ is, therefore, a desperate clutching at straws on the part of the Srebrenica deniers.
> 
> ...


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 26, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Its more than that. Her views are regularly published on right-wing Serbian websites.



"Right-wing" websites that call themselves "New Left Project."

How does that work then?


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 26, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> "Right-wing" websites that call themselves "New Left Project."
> 
> How does that work then?



That's an article opposing her view Phil!


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jan 26, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> I wouldn't say that it's necessarily anti-semitic to deny the unique status of the Holocaust.
> 
> But it is certainly an argument of which anti-semites are very fond.
> 
> ...


It was an attempt to systematically wipe out a particular group of people. Such attempts had been made before and have been made since. Have you bought into Turkish Armenian genocide-denial?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 26, 2014)

littlebabyjesus said:


> It was an attempt to systematically wipe out a particular group of people. Such attempts had been made before and have been made since. Have you bought into Turkish Armenian genocide-denial?


bought into it? he sells it.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 26, 2014)

I strongly suggest that people read the first article on the page that I've linked to BTW, it tells you a lot about Johnstone and her mates

http://greatersurbiton.wordpress.com/tag/diana-johnstone/

I'm not keen on some of the blog's other views but they did a good job here


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 26, 2014)

http://tendancecoatesy.wordpress.com/tag/diana-johnstone/


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 26, 2014)

> Josh Mason, a former editor at _In These Times_, explains in an online PEN forum (April 8, 1999) that the magazine stopped using Diana Johnstone's articles on the former Yugoslavia because they didn't meet the publication's journalistic standards:
> 
> We felt we couldn't publish her stuff not only because she was insisting that there was no Serb role in the slaughter of Muslims in Bosnia after the facts were long in, but because her friendship with Milosevic's wife Mirjana Markovic, going back to her time as student in Yugoslavia in the '60s, colored her writing to the point of dishonesty. For instance, in a piece on the Serbian opposition, she presented Ms. Markovic's party as Serbia's main democratic opposition.
> 
> ...



http://balkanwitness.glypx.com/articles-deniers.htm

Idris2002 butchersapron


----------



## Idris2002 (Jan 26, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> http://greatersurbiton.wordpress.com/tag/diana-johnstone/
> 
> Another one



Re: the Boasian anthropology thing. That's the foundation of _American _anthropology, even today, but it's not that influential in Europe.


----------



## brogdale (Jan 26, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> I was being ironic yo.



Irony, eh?
Such a challenging device to communicate effectively on board threads; it can so easily be read as a weak trolling defence.


----------



## Idris2002 (Jan 26, 2014)

"I certainly understand how jokes can be made about extermination. In “Defamation”, a documentary on Norman Finkelstein and Abe Foxman made by an Israeli filmmaker, we see Norman in the stairwell of his building raising his arm in a Nazi salute as unexpectedly as Dr. Strangelove. That’s his way of showing that he refuses to bow down to the Israel lobby. There’s also Larry David who provokes a Zionist neighbor into a screaming fit after he hires a string quartet to play Wagner on his front lawn on the occasion of his wife’s birthday. I know for a fact that my rich uncle Mike wanted to spite my mostly Jewish and Zionist village in the Borscht Belt by buying my cousin Louis a Mercedes-Benz roadster on his 16th birthday back when German goods were _verboten_. Who are they to tell me what car to buy, he insisted.

There’s only one problem in trying to apply this type of joking across the board. It is one thing for a Jew to make jokes about six million killed; it is another for someone like Dieudonné. As an analogy, when Black rappers use the word “nigger” in a song, it has a different character than when a Klansman would."

http://louisproyect.org/2014/01/25/thoughts-on-diana-johnstone-and-dieudonne-mbala-mbala/#comments


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 26, 2014)

brogdale said:


> Irony, eh?
> Such a challenging device to communicate effectively on board threads; it can so easily be read as a weak trolling defence.



You're right.

What I was trying to say was that Dieudonne is not right-wing.  As evidence I adduced the fact that he is being defended by left-wingers.

My wider point is that the terms "left" and "right-wing" are useless in describing today's political positions.

A more appropriate dichotomy for the C21st would be pro- and anti-capitalist.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 26, 2014)

littlebabyjesus said:


> It was an attempt to systematically wipe out a particular group of people. Such attempts had been made before and have been made since. Have you bought into Turkish Armenian genocide-denial?



We've been through this before.  Since you ask however...

I think it's important to distinguish the Jewish Holocaust from all other instances of mass murder, including the massacres of the Armenians.

I know that those who try to erase such distinctions are often motivated by anti-semitism.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 26, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> "I certainly understand how jokes can be made about extermination. In “Defamation”, a documentary on Norman Finkelstein and Abe Foxman made by an Israeli filmmaker, we see Norman in the stairwell of his building raising his arm in a Nazi salute as unexpectedly as Dr. Strangelove. That’s his way of showing that he refuses to bow down to the Israel lobby. There’s also Larry David who provokes a Zionist neighbor into a screaming fit after he hires a string quartet to play Wagner on his front lawn on the occasion of his wife’s birthday. I know for a fact that my rich uncle Mike wanted to spite my mostly Jewish and Zionist village in the Borscht Belt by buying my cousin Louis a Mercedes-Benz roadster on his 16th birthday back when German goods were _verboten_. Who are they to tell me what car to buy, he insisted.
> 
> There’s only one problem in trying to apply this type of joking across the board. It is one thing for a Jew to make jokes about six million killed; it is another for someone like Dieudonné. As an analogy, when Black rappers use the word “nigger” in a song, it has a different character than when a Klansman would."
> 
> http://louisproyect.org/2014/01/25/thoughts-on-diana-johnstone-and-dieudonne-mbala-mbala/#comments



So let me get this straight.

It's alright for Finkelstein to make a Nazi salute because he's Jewish.  But it's not OK for Dieudonne to do his querelle because he's not Jewish.

Is that a fair summary of Proyect's argument?  If so, it's rubbish.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 26, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> So let me get this straight.
> 
> It's alright for Finkelstein to make a Nazi salute because he's Jewish.  But it's not OK for Dieudonne to do his querelle because he's not Jewish.
> 
> Is that a fair summary of Proyect's argument?  If so, it's rubbish.


you thick cunt. it's not ok for dieudonne to do his _quenelle_ because he's an anti-semite being anti-semitic.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 26, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> you thick cunt. it's not ok for dieudonne to do his _quenelle_ because he's an anti-semite being anti-semitic.



So why is OK for Finkelstein to do a Nazi salute?

And speaking of anti-semites, you are the one who always seems so concerned to deny the unique status of the Jewish Holocaust.  Why exactly is that such an important point for you?


----------



## Idris2002 (Jan 26, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> So why is OK for Finkelstein to do a Nazi salute?



Who said it was? Louis P. says that the _meaning _is different when Finklestein does it - it has "a different character" to quote Louis P.

You thick cunt.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 26, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> Who said it was? Louis P. says that the _meaning _is different when Finklestein does it - it has "a different character" to quote Louis P.



Yes.  He says it's OK for Finkelstein to do it.  Just as I said.

Or rather, that's what he says in the extract quoted.  My question was whether this is an accurate reflection of his views.  My opinion is that, if it is accurate, then his views are rubbish.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jan 26, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> We've been through this before.  Since you ask however...
> 
> I think it's important to distinguish the Jewish Holocaust from all other instances of mass murder, including the massacres of the Armenians.
> 
> I know that those who try to erase such distinctions are often motivated by anti-semitism.



do you know that? Why do you mention it though to someone who is not so motivated? Bit like people bringing up antisemitism when you talk about usury.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jan 26, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> "I certainly understand how jokes can be made about extermination. In “Defamation”, a documentary on Norman Finkelstein and Abe Foxman made by an Israeli filmmaker,


 _Defamation_ was not on _Norman Finkelstein and Abe Foxman_ exclusively at all..it was an investigation into _evidence_ of how widespread contemporary anti-semitism is...these people featured, but were not the focus IMO.

Perhaps you mean the difference between anti-Zionism and anti-semitism?...there is after all a difference.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 26, 2014)

littlebabyjesus said:


> do you know that? Why do you mention it though to someone who is not so motivated? Bit like people bringing up antisemitism when you talk about usury.



Yes I do know it.  I also know that you are not so motivated.  I brought it up here because I'm not only talking to you.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 26, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> So why is OK for Finkelstein to do a Nazi salute?
> 
> And speaking of anti-semites, you are the one who always seems so concerned to deny the unique status of the Jewish Holocaust.  Why exactly is that such an important point for you?


pls quote post where i deny unique status of j.h.


----------



## MellySingsDoom (Jan 26, 2014)

Quick one here - I'm (slowly) working through butchers' and froggy's recent links here - a lot of info to take on board and digest properly for me. 

As for talk on whether Dioudonne is left wing/right wing/whatever:  whilst I take on board what everyone has said here, I'm also inclined to blunder in (in classic Melly style) and yell "Who fucking cares?  He's anti-Semitic scum, isn't that what counts?".  My own personal view on this one at present, though?  Well, his link ups with the FN, Third Positionists, the Batskin mob and Holocaust deniers of every stripe imaginable would certainly see him cementing relations on the "right"/far-right etc for many a year now.  Dioudonne himself?  At the very least, a left/right convergenist whose own brand of "anti-Zionism" sees him trying to position himself as an "anti-establishment" candidate.  However, he's about as "anti-Zionist" as John Tyndall was, and his "anti-establishment" "credentials" are a complete and utter joke.

So there you have it. Any thoughts/comments/general abuse on this one are welcome as always.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 26, 2014)

MellySingsDoom said:


> Dioudonne himself?  At the very least, a left/right convergenist whose own brand of "anti-Zionism" sees him trying to position himself as an "anti-establishment" candidate.



I suppose that's fair enough.  But I still wouldn't desribe him as a "convergenist" or whatever, because the two things he's supposed to be converging aren't real.  I'd say that he takes some ideas from what has traditionally been called the "right" and others from what has traditionally been called the "left."  With the emphasis on "traditionally."



MellySingsDoom said:


> However, he's about as "anti-Zionist" as John Tyndall was, and his "anti-establishment" "credentials" are a complete and utter joke.



Why do you think he isn't a genuine anti-Zionist?  Why do you think his anti-establishment credentials are a joke?


----------



## MellySingsDoom (Jan 26, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> I suppose that's fair enough.  But I still wouldn't desribe him as a "convergenist" or whatever, because the two things he's supposed to be converging aren't real.  I'd say that he takes some ideas from what has traditionally been called the "right" and others from what has traditionally been called the "left."  With the emphasis on "traditionally."
> 
> 
> 
> Why do you think he isn't a genuine anti-Zionist?  Why do you think his anti-establishment credentials are a joke?



Re. Dioudonne's "anti-Zionism"?  Well, his appalling Shoah-themed "song", him describing the Holocaust as "memorial pornography", and him making "gas chamber" comments towards a (Jewish) opponent of his certainly count as "three strikes and you're out" for me as far as he's concerned, and that's just for starters.  And for his "anti-establishment" stuff?  Well, hanging around with the "respectable" (ha fucking ha) Front National, and the fact his "career" has made him a wealthy and (God knows why) popular figure, certainly has little (if anything) to with any genuine anti-establishment stuff for me.  He may wish he was "anti-establishment", but his views and actions are as tiresomely predictable as they are abhorrent.  Let's face it, he's as middle class as they come, isn't he?  Hardly anyone who can claim to represent the geniunely dispossesed of his own nation.

And on your first paragraph?  Whilst I don't quite agree with you there ("...converging aren't real"), I certainly see where you coming from on this one.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 26, 2014)

MellySingsDoom said:


> Re. Dioudonne's "anti-Zionism"?  Well, his appalling Shoah-themed "song", him describing the Holocaust as "memorial pornography", and him making "gas chamber" comments towards a (Jewish) opponent of his certainly count as "three strikes and you're out" for me as far as he's concerned, and that's just for starters.



I agree that he's anti-semitic.  But anti-semitism is quite compatible with anti-Zionism. 



MellySingsDoom said:


> And for his "anti-establishment" stuff?  Well, hanging around with the "respectable" (ha fucking ha) Front National, and the fact his "career" has made him a wealthy and (God knows why) popular figure, certainly has little (if anything) to with any genuine anti-establishment stuff for me.  He may wish he was "anti-establishment", but his views and actions are as tiresomely predictable as they are abhorrent.



You reckon?  I certainly wouldn't have predicted them.  They surprised the hell out of me tbh.  And the French establishment do seem to see him as an enemy.  Why wouldn't they?


----------



## kraepelin (Jan 26, 2014)

If this guy isn't anti-semitic. Then hitler just kind of disliked jews.

This guy seems like he has lost the plot. His material seems weak, the pineapple stuff seemed more like the work of a just screaming i hate the jews till hes blue in the face.

As distressing as his existence is it has one useful purpose, if anyone denies his anti semitism or seeks to fudge the issue, then in my mind there motives are transparent


----------



## redsquirrel (Jan 26, 2014)

barney_pig said:


> Seeing how he gets hIs kicks denying genocide, perhaps.
> Maybe things are different in academia, but if someone behaved as Dwyer in real life their chances of not getting a serious slapping would be zero.


Because he doesn't. It's a pathetic act put on for his ego.


----------



## MellySingsDoom (Jan 26, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> I agree that he's anti-semitic.  But anti-semitism is quite compatible with anti-Zionism.
> 
> 
> 
> You reckon?  I certainly wouldn't have predicted them.  They surprised the hell out of me tbh.  And the French establishment do seem to see him as an enemy.  Why wouldn't they?



Re your first point - disagree on the "anti-Semitism is quite compatible with anti-Zionism", on the basis that you do have Jewish people who follow an anti-Zionist line, and I myself have a friend who is an Israeli national (based in Jerusalem at present), who is anti-Zionist himself.  I think one has to be very careful in equating anti-Zionists such as my friend and other Jews (didn't VP say he is anti-Zionist?  Might be wrong on that one, though), to someone (like Dioudonne for example) who uses "anti-Zionism" as a ill-concealed cover for outright anti-Semitism (see also T Southgate on this one as well)

On your second point - he may well have aligned himself against some of the mainstream French establishment, but he's still a middle-class figure with links to the Front National, a party with some very strong standing in France in areas (I think Butchers put on another thread here some alarming stats on their current rating in some elections (Euro elections?)). He also plays up his ideas and beliefs to the mainstream media in France - hardly someone who deliberately shuns them in order to remain outside the system.  And anti-Semitism, once you've educated yourself as what it really is, is fucking tiresome and predictable - if you don't believe me, just subject yourself to Richard Edmonds' "greatest hits" on this one (actually, don't).


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 26, 2014)

I do agree with phil in that you can have anti Zionists who are also antisemitic. Just because most aren't it doesn't mean none are


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 26, 2014)

They're definitely not the same thing but that doesn't mean that opposition to the Israeli state and dislike of Jews can't coexist quite happily with some people


----------



## MellySingsDoom (Jan 26, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> I do agree with phil in that you can have anti Zionists who are also antisemitic. Just because most aren't it doesn't mean none are



In cetain circumstances, of course. But I think Phil's point could be seen to be a more general line on the "anti-Zionsim"/anti-Semitism thing, and I think (again) one has to be very careful on that one.


----------



## MellySingsDoom (Jan 26, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> They're definitely not the same thing but that doesn't mean that opposition to the Israeli state and dislike of Jews can't coexist quite happily with some people



Yep, 100% with you on this one here.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 26, 2014)

MellySingsDoom said:


> In cetain circumstances, of course. But I think Phil's point could be seen to be a more general line on the "anti-Zionsim"/anti-Semitism thing, and I think (again) one has to be very careful on that one.



It depends though on what they mean by Zionism - do they mean the nationalist movement started by Theodor Herzl, do they mean the behaviour of the modern day Israeli state or do they mean 'Jews controlling all the banks' and I think some views of how much power Israel has etc are certainly a bit dodge


----------



## MellySingsDoom (Jan 26, 2014)

As an aside - whilst I don't agree with a fair whack with what Phil says on this one, at least he's engaged with me politely, sensibly and provided stuff for me to think about and mull over.  Much rather his approach than some other people (who I won't mention), who've stamped all over this thread like drunken imbeciles, and who could be out-argued by my youngest niece.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jan 26, 2014)

Anti-semite in "anti-Zionist" shock.


----------



## MellySingsDoom (Jan 26, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> It depends though on what they mean by Zionism - do they mean the nationalist movement started by Theodor Herzl, do they mean the behaviour of the modern day Israeli state or do they mean 'Jews controlling all the banks' and I think some views of how much power Israel has etc are certainly a bit dodge



For me, I see legitimate anti-Zionism as informed, sensible, and even-handed criticism of the Israeli state and its actions.  Much of what else passes for "anti-Zionism" in recent times is disgraceful racist guff.  As for Herzl, have to admit I'm somewhat clueless on him (will go and doing some proper reading on him in due course), but in theory, the _idea_ of a homeland for the Jews seems to be a reasonble and legitimate one for me.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 26, 2014)

MellySingsDoom said:


> Yep, 100% with you on this one here.




Zionism is one of those words that can mean literally anything depending on who's saying it, its basically meaningless these days, its better to talk about the state of Israel and its government in more precise language IMO


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 26, 2014)

MellySingsDoom said:


> In cetain circumstances, of course. But I think Phil's point could be seen to be a more general line on the "anti-Zionsim"/anti-Semitism thing, and I think (again) one has to be very careful on that one.



Of course not all anti-Zionists are anti-semites.  All I'm saying is that it is possible to be both at once.

A lot of pro-Zionists have been anti-semites too.


----------



## MellySingsDoom (Jan 26, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Zionism is one of those words that can mean literally anything depending on who's saying it, its basically meaningless these days, its better to talk about the state of Israel and its government in more precise language IMO


 
Yes indeed (see my post #2412 on this one - though I could have explained it more concisely, I concede)


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 26, 2014)

MellySingsDoom said:


> For me, I see legitimate anti-Zionism as informed, sensible, and even-handed criticism of the Israeli state and its actions.  Much of what else passes for "anti-Zionism" in recent times is disgraceful racist guff.  As for Herzl, have to admit I'm somewhat clueless on him (will go and doing some proper reading on him in due course), but in theory, the _idea_ of a homeland for the Jews seems to be a reasonble and legitimate one for me.



Anti Zionism usually went further, criticsing the Zionist ideology on which the Israeli state was founded and the way in which Israel was set up (the war of independence leading to the nakba etc) its definitely not antisemitic in itself. That doesn't mean that some critiques of Israel aren't antisemitic tho


----------



## MellySingsDoom (Jan 26, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Of course not all anti-Zionists are anti-semites.  All I'm saying is that it is possible to be both at once.
> 
> A lot of pro-Zionists have been anti-semites too.



Your first point - Theoretically, I guess you're right on this one, though currently I'm struggling to think of anyone who fits that bill atm.  I'l think on that one.

Your second point - I actually hadn't considered that.  Do you have any examples/names for me to look into?


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 26, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Of course not all anti-Zionists are anti-semites.  All I'm saying is that it is possible to be both at once.
> 
> A lot of pro-Zionists have been anti-semites too.




This. Although I'm not sure where you're going with this one...


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 26, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> This. Although I'm not sure where you're going with this one...


believe me you don't want to know


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 26, 2014)

MellySingsDoom said:


> Your first point - Theoretically, I guess you're right on this one, though currently I'm struggling to think of anyone who fits that bill atm.  I'l think on that one.
> 
> Your second point - I actually hadn't considered that.  Do you have any examples/names for me to look into?



There are a few who use critiques of Israels actions to hide their real views, dieudonne is one. 

There were loads of UK etc diplomats who thought that getting the Jews to Palestine would be a good way of getting them out of Europe


----------



## MellySingsDoom (Jan 26, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Anti Zionism usually went further, criticsing the Zionist ideology on which the Israeli state was founded and the way in which Israel was set up (the war of independence leading to the nakba etc) its definitely not antisemitic in itself. That doesn't mean that some critiques of Israel aren't antisemitic tho



Though I know a fair bit on the set up of the foundation of Israel, the "criticising the Zionist ideology..." is something that hadn't occured to me.  Is there anywhere online that I could look further into this to?  (I guess Wikipedia et al would be a basic start).  Your second sentence - yes, definitely, and that's precisly my issue/problem w/quite a lot a contemporary "anti-Zionism"/criticism of Israel - it just seems to be a piss-poor cover for outright abuse and hatred, as opposed to analysing Israel's actions on a political/class etc basis.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 26, 2014)

MellySingsDoom said:


> Though I know a fair bit on the set up of the foundation of Israel, the "criticising the Zionist ideology..." is something that hadn't occured to me.  Is there anywhere online that I could look further into this to?  (I guess Wikipedia et al would be a basic start).  Your second sentence - yes, definitely, and that's precisly my issue/problem w/quite a lot a contemporary "anti-Zionism"/criticism of Israel - it just seems to be a piss-poor cover for outright abuse and hatred, as opposed to analysing Israel's actions on a political/class etc basis.




Try Ilan Pappe's 'ethnic cleansing of Palestine' and anything by Norman Finkelstein


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 26, 2014)

MellySingsDoom said:


> Your second point - I actually hadn't considered that.  Do you have any examples/names for me to look into?



Check out Winston Churchill.

Obviously a classic anti-semite, he advocates Zionism as a means of opposing Bolshevism.  Or "good Jews" versus "bad Jews" in his charming terminology.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 26, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Check out Winston Churchill:
> 
> http://wdotfppcodotuk/bookchapters/WSC/WSCwrote1920.html
> 
> Obviously a classic anti-semite, he advocates Zionism as a means of opposing Bolshevism.  Or "good Jews" versus "bad Jews" in his charming terminology.




Why are you linking to that site Phil? I think you ought to break that link


----------



## MellySingsDoom (Jan 26, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> There are a few who use critiques of Israels actions to hide their real views, dieudonne is one.
> 
> There were loads of UK etc diplomats who thought that getting the Jews to Palestine would be a good way of getting them out of Europe



I was gonna throw in Dioudonne, as it goes, but I consider him such a rabid and obvious anti-Semite, he offers absolutely nothing to say to any legitimate critique of Israel whatsoever.

Yep, I'd read a long while ago on the UK diplomats thing - yet another shameful part of UK "modern" day history.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 26, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Check out Winston Churchill:
> 
> http://www.fpp.co.uk/bookchapters/WSC/WSCwrote1920.html
> 
> Obviously a classic anti-semite, he advocates Zionism as a means of opposing Bolshevism.  Or "good Jews" versus "bad Jews" in his charming terminology.


traditionally anti-semites don't like any jews


----------



## MellySingsDoom (Jan 26, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Try Ilan Pappe's 'ethnic cleansing of Palestine' and anything by Norman Finkelstein



Nice one froggy, thank you.  That's given me something to look into over the coming week.


----------



## MellySingsDoom (Jan 26, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Why are you linking to that site Phil? I think you ought to break that link


 
Is this some bloody "Heritage and Destiny" type site?  If it is, I'm not touching that with a bargepole.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 26, 2014)

MellySingsDoom said:


> Is this some bloody "Heritage and Destiny" type site?  If it is, I'm not touching that with a bargepole.



Its David Irving's website. I think you ought to break the link Phil because it's a bit dodgy


----------



## MellySingsDoom (Jan 26, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Its David Irving's website



Fucking hell!  I would never have known that, looking at the www link.

Phil - do you have another link that does NOT go to a David Irving-style Holocaust revisionist/racist wankfest?


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 26, 2014)

MellySingsDoom said:


> Fucking hell!  I would never have known that, looking at the www link.
> 
> Phil - do you have another link that does NOT go to a David Irving-style Holocaust revisionist/racist wankfest?



No, I can't find one.  I'll break the link, then c'n'p the relevant bit.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 26, 2014)

You really need to read it all to get the full flavor of Churchill's Victorian snobbery, but here's one appropriate passage:

"Zionism has already become a factor in the political convulsions of Russia, as a powerful competing influence in Bolshevik circles with the international communistic system. Nothing could be more significant than the fury with which Trotsky has attacked the Zionists generally, and Dr. Weissmann in particular. The cruel penetration of his mind leaves him in no doubt that his schemes of a world-wide communistic State under Jewish domination are directly thwarted and hindered by this new ideal, which directs the energies and the hopes of Jews in every land towards a simpler, a truer, and a far more attainable goal."


----------



## MellySingsDoom (Jan 26, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> No, I can't find one.  I'll break the link, then c'n'p the relevant bit.



OK - will await the cut and paste stuff.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 26, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> traditionally anti-semites don't like any jews



Not true at all.

The classic anti-semitic tactic was to make a distinction between "good Jews" and "bad Jews" _a la _Churchill.  Even early Nazi propaganda often harps on this theme.


----------



## MellySingsDoom (Jan 26, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> You really need to read it all to get the full flavor of Churchill's Victorian snobbery, but here's one appropriate passage:
> 
> "Zionism has already become a factor in the political convulsions of Russia, as a powerful competing influence in Bolshevik circles with the international communistic system. Nothing could be more significant than the fury with which Trotsky has attacked the Zionists generally, and Dr. Weissmann in particular. The cruel penetration of his mind leaves him in no doubt that his schemes of a world-wide communistic State under Jewish domination are directly thwarted and hindered by this new ideal, which directs the energies and the hopes of Jews in every land towards a simpler, a truer, and a far more attainable goal."



That's, well....pretty mental, really.  Obviously he had issues with communism/Bolshevism, but I didn't know he went that far off-the-scale with it.  Blimey.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 26, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Not true at all.
> 
> The classic anti-semitic tactic was to make a distinction between "good Jews" and "bad Jews" _a la _Churchill.  Even early Nazi propaganda often harps on this theme.



The old 'I have a black friend' get out of racism free card


----------



## MellySingsDoom (Jan 26, 2014)

And I've found this on the Haaretz site (apols for the cut and paste epic - I've tried to link to Haaretz in the past, and the links don't work):



> A historian has uncovered a pre-World War Two article Winston Churchill wrote about the persecution of Jews but then decided not to publish. In the long lost article, the British wartime leader disapproved of the treatment they experienced but did say of the Jews: "They have been partly responsible for the antagonism from which they suffer."
> 
> Cambridge University lecturer Richard Toye, reflecting on his find, said: "While most people would accept that Churchill was no anti-Semite, this sheds fascinating new light on his views about Jews which were very inconsistent."
> 
> ...


----------



## revol68 (Jan 26, 2014)

yeah most of forms of racism or sectarianism always have a space for the good other.

what makes the Nazi anti semitism so distinct is that it completely removed such a distinction as it went on, settling instead for the complete annihilation of all jews.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 26, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Why are you linking to that site Phil? I think you ought to break that link


i think we know why he's linking to that site


----------



## MellySingsDoom (Jan 26, 2014)

revol68 said:


> yeah most of forms of racism or sectarianism always have a space for the good other.



This reminds me of the 70's NF accepting a number of Jewish people into their ranks (apparently OK'd by Tyndall too).  I was actually shocked when I read up on that, but apparently it's 100% true.  A case here of Tyndall and co using individual Jewish people for their own ends.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 26, 2014)

revol68 said:


> yeah most of forms of racism or sectarianism always have a space for the good other.
> 
> what makes the Nazi anti semitism so distinct is that it completely removed such a distinction as it went on, settling instead for the complete annihilation of all jews.



It developed into that fairly rapidly as well. Lots of Nazi propaganda from the early 30s bemoans the fact that 'every decent German has his 'good Jew' they're willing to appear not to be so racist tho to make themselves look reasonable later on though.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 26, 2014)

MellySingsDoom said:


> That's, well....pretty mental, really.  Obviously he had issues with communism/Bolshevism, but I didn't know he went that far off-the-scale with it.  Blimey.



Gives you a real flavor of what was said when the port and cigars went around eh what?

His opening declaration, made with magnificent self-assurance: "Some people like Jews and some do not...."


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 26, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Not true at all.
> 
> The classic anti-semitic tactic was to make a distinction between "good Jews" and "bad Jews" _a la _Churchill.  Even early Nazi propaganda often harps on this theme.


yet all you have on churchill seems to be one article on a dubious website.


----------



## MellySingsDoom (Jan 26, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> yet all you have on churchill seems to be one article on a dubious website.



Actually, I do wonder - is that quote availabe on a non-Irving site at all?


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 26, 2014)

MellySingsDoom said:


> This reminds me of the 70's NF accepting a number of Jewish people into their ranks (apparently OK'd by Tyndall too).  I was actually shocked when I read up on that, but apparently it's 100% true.  A case here of Tyndall and co using individual Jewish people for their own ends.




There was Joe Cole who got persuaded into going round the gas chambers of a camp with a camera for Ernst zundel and his pals and recording a 'documentary' on why the holocaust didn't exist and it was all a conspiracy.


----------



## MellySingsDoom (Jan 26, 2014)

Anyway:  to summarise - Dioudonne is a virulenty anti-Semitic establishment man.  Are we all agreed on this one?


----------



## MellySingsDoom (Jan 26, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> There was Joe Cole who got persuaded into going round the gas chambers of a camp with a camera for Ernst zundel and his pals and recording a 'documentary' on why the holocaust didn't exist and it was all a conspiracy.



Good lord, really?  That's absolutely horrible.  Obv. Zundel and co are complete scum, it goes without saying.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 26, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> i think we know why he's linking to that site



You have the mentality of Yagoda.  Pathetic weirdo.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 26, 2014)

MellySingsDoom said:


> Actually, I do wonder - is that quote availabe on a non-Irving site at all?



Not in full it seems.  But there's no dispute as to the article's authenticity.  Part of it is cited here:

http://majorityrights.com/weblog/comments/864/

Churchill's anti-semitism has been largely covered up, for obvious reasons:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/11/world/europe/11iht-winston.4873300.html?_r=0


----------



## MellySingsDoom (Jan 26, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Not in full it seems.  But there's no dispute as to the article's authenticity.  Part of it is cited here:
> 
> http://majorityrights.com/weblog/comments/864/
> 
> ...



Had a very quick link look at the Majority Rights link, and note there's some stuff on there about "white genocide". Umm.....(conspiraloon alert?)

As for the NY Times - that certainly looks much more legit - will have a read up on that tomorrow (am going to watch a film in 10 mins or so)


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Jan 26, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> There was Joe Cole who got persuaded into going round the gas chambers of a camp with a camera for Ernst zundel and his pals and recording a 'documentary' on why the holocaust didn't exist and it was all a conspiracy.


Another anti Semitic footballer


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jan 26, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Yes I do know it.  I also know that you are not so motivated.  I brought it up here because I'm not only talking to you.


Well that's not good enough. Argue with the points made. That's the way to defeat anti-Semitism - to argue with the points presented to you, not with the sentiments that you presume to be behind the points being presented to you. You should know this.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 27, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> You have the mentality of Yagoda.  Pathetic weirdo.


so no chance of you substantiating your claim about my view of the j.h.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 27, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Not in full it seems.  But there's no dispute as to the article's authenticity.  Part of it is cited here:
> 
> http://majorityrights.com/weblog/comments/864/
> 
> ...


if wsc anti-semitic then show us a couple of examples from his letters


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 27, 2014)

majorityrights.com, that well known historically accurate and not at all racist website??

really phil, now you're taking the piss.


----------



## MellySingsDoom (Jan 27, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> majorityrights.com, that well known historically accurate and not at all racist website??
> 
> really phil, now you're taking the piss.



Have to agree w/this one I'm afraid, Phil.  There's also bloody 9/11 "Truther" stuff on said site too.

Will still look at the NYT thing later on, though.


----------



## Idris2002 (Jan 27, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> majorityrights.com, that well known historically accurate and not at all racist website??
> 
> really phil, now you're taking the piss.



The real Tragedy of Dwyer is that he could actually be a good poster if he would just drop the "office joker" persona.


----------



## MellySingsDoom (Jan 27, 2014)

Further thoughts from me on the Churchill quote by Irving:  it occured to me over my breakfast cup of tea that Irving, given his record for being distinctly less-than-honest with the references he cites for his "research", could well have cobbled together the Churchill quote from mutiple sources, and produced something that Churchill didn't actually say - I certainly wouldn't put it past Irving to do something like that.  So with that in mind, I think I'm going to disregard the Irving-presented Churchill quote, and await further details on the Churchill anti-Semitism thing.


----------



## MellySingsDoom (Jan 27, 2014)

Right then - have just read that NYT article, and here's some things that stood out for me immediately:

First off, it looks like Churchill didn't actually write the article in question himself, as seen here:



> Some experts on the history of British Jews dismissed the article, saying its existence has been well-known and it had never been published because Churchill rejected the views of the ghost-writer who composed it.



And the identity of the ghost writer?  That is cited at the end of the NYT article here:



> Gilbert said Churchill had refused to permit the article to be published. He identified the ghost-writer as Adam Marshall Diston, a member of Oswald Mosley's British Union of Fascists. It was not clear why Churchill commissioned him to write an article in his name.



Richard Toye, the lecturere who found this ghost-written article, had this to say about it:



> In an interview with The Sunday Times, Toye said: "I don't want to say he was anti-Semitic, but this sheds fascinating new light on his views about Jews, which were very inconsistent." At the same time he said most people would accept that Churchill was not anti- Semitic.



And the view of Geoffrey Alderman, a British historian who also writes for the Jewish Chronicle?  He say this:



> ...said in an interview [on] Sunday that "we have known about this for some time" because the article appears in a collection of Churchill's writings compiled by Martin Gilbert, Churchill's official biographer, that was published in the 1980s.
> Alderman added: "It does not challenge" the prevailing view of Churchill as supportive of the Jews. "I think it's a flash in the pan."



So my views on this?  It appears that Churchill may well have held some contradictory views of some description of Jewish people.  But the quotes listed certainly don't look to provide the "smoking gun" to prove Churchill's anti-Semitism.  And in addition, the fact that the article in question was ghost written by an active fascist makes me very suspicious indeed as to the accuracy of said article.

To sum up?  This article does not prove that Churchill was an anti-Semite.  I await further details/references on this front with interest.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 27, 2014)

MellySingsDoom said:


> Further thoughts from me on the Churchill quote by Irving:  it occured to me over my breakfast cup of tea that Irving, given his record for being distinctly less-than-honest with the references he cites for his "research", could well have cobbled together the Churchill quote from mutiple sources, and produced something that Churchill didn't actually say - I certainly wouldn't put it past Irving to do something like that.  So with that in mind, I think I'm going to disregard the Irving-presented Churchill quote, and await further details on the Churchill anti-Semitism thing.



It's not a "quote," it's an article Churchill wrote for the Sunday Illustrated Herald.  Wikipedia cites it too:

"In the same decade, future wartime Prime Minister Winston Churchill penned an editorial entitled "Zionism versus Bolshevism," which was published in the _Illustrated Sunday Herald._ In the article, which asserted that Zionism and Bolshevism were engaged in a "struggle for the soul of the Jewish people", he called on Jews to repudiate "the Bolshevik conspiracy" and make clear that "the Bolshevik movement is not a Jewish movement" but stated that:
[Bolshevism] among the Jews is nothing new. From the days of Spartacus-Weishaupt to those of Karl Marx, and down to Trotsky (Russia), Bela Kun (Hungary), Rosa Luxemburg (Germany), and Emma Goldman (United States), this world-wide conspiracy for the overthrow of civilisation and for the reconstitution of society on the basis of arrested development, of envious malevolence, and impossible equality, has been steadily growing.[40]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Bolshevism


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 27, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> It's not a "quote," it's an article Churchill wrote for the Sunday Illustrated Herald.  Wikipedia cites it too:
> 
> "In the same decade, future wartime Prime Minister Winston Churchill penned an editorial entitled "Zionism versus Bolshevism," which was published in the _Illustrated Sunday Herald._ In the article, which asserted that Zionism and Bolshevism were engaged in a "struggle for the soul of the Jewish people", he called on Jews to repudiate "the Bolshevik conspiracy" and make clear that "the Bolshevik movement is not a Jewish movement" but stated that:
> [Bolshevism] among the Jews is nothing new. From the days of Spartacus-Weishaupt to those of Karl Marx, and down to Trotsky (Russia), Bela Kun (Hungary), Rosa Luxemburg (Germany), and Emma Goldman (United States), this world-wide conspiracy for the overthrow of civilisation and for the reconstitution of society on the basis of arrested development, of envious malevolence, and impossible equality, has been steadily growing.[40]
> ...


i think what you're saying here is you haven't found anything to suit your purpose in reputable sources like martin gilbert's 2007 book 'churchill and the jews'. btw, the sub-title to the book is 'a lifelong friendship'.

you and the truth rarely meet, phil.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 27, 2014)

MellySingsDoom said:


> But the quotes listed certainly don't look to provide the "smoking gun" to prove Churchill's anti-Semitism.



The interesting thing is that, by today's standards, anyone who wrote what Churchill did would immediately be branded an obvious anti-semite.

And yet Churchill's policies and actions were not anti-semitic at all, quite the reverse in fact.

This shows how silly it is to obssess about how people use language.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 27, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> The interesting thing is that, by today's standards, anyone who wrote what Churchill did would immediately be branded an obvious anti-semite.
> 
> And yet Churchill's policies and actions were not anti-semitic at all, quite the reverse in fact.
> 
> This shows how silly it is to obssess about how people use language.


as i've said (post 2461) you're ignoring reputable sources from competent historians who have actually done some work in the area.


----------



## MellySingsDoom (Jan 27, 2014)

phildwyer - I've just read the entirity of the "Zionism vs Bolshevism" article (it's on the Wikisource site), and my view?  Whilst Churchill is yet again banging on about Bolshevism and Communism, and certainly talks about the Jewish "influence" of Bolshevism, at no point does he actually go down the road of outright anti-Semitism.  Indeed, he concludes the article with this point:



> It is particularly important in these circumstances that the national Jews in every country who are loyal to the land of their adoption should come forward on every occasion, as many of them in England have already done, and take a prominent part in every measure for combating the Bolshevik conspiracy. In this way they will be able to vindicate the honour of the Jewish name and make it clear to all the world that the Bolshevik movement is not a Jewish movement, but is repudiated vehemently by the great mass of the Jewish race.



So again, for me, there's no "smoking gun" that links Churchill to outright anti-Semitism.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 27, 2014)

MellySingsDoom said:


> phildwyer - I've just read the entirity of the "Zionism vs Bolshevism" article (it's on the Wikisource site), and my view?  Whilst Churchill is yet again banging on about Bolshevism and Communism, and certainly talks about the Jewish "influence" of Bolshevism, at no point does he actually go down the road of outright anti-Semitism.  Indeed, he concludes the article with this point:
> 
> 
> 
> So again, for me, there's no "smoking gun" that links Churchill to outright anti-Semitism.


dwyer's
a liar


----------



## MellySingsDoom (Jan 27, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> dwyer's
> a liar



I take your point on board, Pickman's.  I need to go off and do some thinking on this one.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 27, 2014)

MellySingsDoom said:


> I take your point on board, Pickman's.  I need to go off and do some thinking on this one.


it's not like dwyer's rarely caught out talking shit. it's a frequent occurrence. and it's not like many people here like churchill so he's an easy target for dwyer to smear. only the bollocks he's posting once again doesn't stand up to even cursory scrutiny.


----------



## andysays (Jan 27, 2014)

[quote="phildwyer, post: 12885395, member: 14741"[Bolshevism] among the Jews is nothing new. From the days of Spartacus-Weishaupt to those of Karl Marx, and down to Trotsky (Russia), Bela Kun (Hungary), Rosa Luxemburg (Germany), and Emma Goldman (United States), this world-wide conspiracy for the overthrow of civilisation and for the reconstitution of society on the basis of arrested development, of envious malevolence, and impossible equality, has been steadily growing.[/quote]

Well I'm certainly no fan of Churchill, but I'm not sure that this quote demonstrates his anti-semitism as clearly as you're suggesting. The world-wide conspiracy referred to is Bolshevism, not Judaism, and it's no surprise to most of us that Churchill was anti-Bolshevik.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 27, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> The interesting thing is that, by today's standards, anyone who wrote what Churchill did would immediately be branded an obvious anti-semite.
> 
> And yet Churchill's policies and actions were not anti-semitic at all, quite the reverse in fact.
> 
> This shows how silly it is to obssess about how people use language.


 
im not sure what your point is here  who's obsessing over how people use language?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 27, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> im not sure what your point is here  who's obsessing over how people use language?


this is a *dwyer diversion*


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 27, 2014)

by the way churchill may well have been anti-semitic, who knows,it wouldn't be the first time when personal views get overriden by pragmatic considerations in politics. i mean he was willing to team up with stalin to get rid of hitler. it's a bit suspicious that people like david irving would make such a big deal of it tho.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jan 27, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> The interesting thing is that, by today's standards, anyone who wrote what Churchill did would immediately be branded an obvious anti-semite.
> 
> And yet Churchill's policies and actions were not anti-semitic at all, quite the reverse in fact.
> 
> This shows how silly it is to obssess about how people use language.


What a load of crap. Churchill was racist _by today's standards_. And the language he used betrays the sense of innate superiority of the empire-building British. He had prejudices that were sadly typical of his time and class. There's no need to shirk that, but also no need to attempt to make him out as equivalent to Hitler because of it.


----------



## MellySingsDoom (Jan 27, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> by the way churchill may well have been anti-semitic, who knows,it wouldn't be the first time when personal views get overriden by pragmatic considerations in politics. it's a bit suspicious that people like david irving would make such a big deal of it tho.



Well, you have Irving and then the BUF bloke making claims about Churchill's anti-Semitism - seems to me like they're projecting their own anti-Semitic prejudices onto Churchill, really.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 27, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> by the way churchill may well have been anti-semitic, who knows,it wouldn't be the first time when personal views get overriden by pragmatic considerations in politics. i mean he was willing to team up with stalin to get rid of hitler. it's a bit suspicious that people like david irving would make such a big deal of it tho.


more research needs to be done on the subject but it's easy enough to demonstrate that once again dywer's talking bollocks.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 27, 2014)

MellySingsDoom said:


> Well, you have Irving and then the BUF bloke making claims about Churchill's anti-Semitism - seems to me like they're projecting their own anti-Semitic prejudices onto Churchill, really.


 
well irving's entire career has been to try and make out hitler wasn't that bad so by sying churchill was anti-semitic he can go "look, churchill also hated the jews so it wasn't just hitler" and at the same time he can say "well churchill hated the jews as well that means there's got to be something in this racism thing"


----------



## MellySingsDoom (Jan 27, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> well irving's entire career has been to try and make out hitler wasn't that bad so by sying churchill was anti-semitic he can go "look, churchill also hated the jews so it wasn't just hitler" and at the same time he can say "well churchill hated the jews as well that means there's got to be something in this racism thing"



Indeed so - of course, his "research" got completely hammered out of the ball park during the Irving/Lipstadt libel trial, and these days of course he conducts horrible "tours" of concentration/extermination camp sites to "prove" his Holocaust revisionism.  Isn't he the imbecile who repeatedly bangs on about Chuchill being a traitor or somesuch as well?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jan 27, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> well irving's entire career has been to try and make out hitler wasn't that bad so by sying churchill was anti-semitic he can go "look, churchill also hated the jews so it wasn't just hitler" and at the same time he can say "well churchill hated the jews as well that means there's got to be something in this racism thing"


You're on far stronger ground with Churchill if you talk about his antipathy towards Hindus. He did think of humans along racial terms, and appears to have had some regard for the Jewish 'race', while he held the Hindu 'race' in contempt.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 27, 2014)

littlebabyjesus said:


> You're on far stronger ground with Churchill if you talk about his antipathy towards Hindus. He did think of humans along racial terms, and appears to have had some regard for the Jewish 'race', while he held the Hindu 'race' in contempt.


 
yeah, don't get me wrong i'm not the greatest fan of his.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 27, 2014)

kraepelin said:


> If this guy isn't anti-semitic. Then hitler just kind of disliked jews.
> 
> This guy seems like he has lost the plot. His material seems weak, the pineapple stuff seemed more like the work of a just screaming i hate the jews till hes blue in the face.



He's catering to an audience, so the weakness of his material is...well...immaterial, IYSWIM!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 27, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> The real Tragedy of Dwyer is that he could actually be a good poster if he would just drop the "office joker" persona.



The Prof is actually more of a David Brent, IMO.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 27, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> it's not like dwyer's rarely caught out talking shit. it's a frequent occurrence. and it's not like many people here like churchill so he's an easy target for dwyer to smear. only the bollocks he's posting once again doesn't stand up to even cursory scrutiny.



One wonders what Churchill's view on the Armenian genocide were?


----------



## brogdale (Jan 27, 2014)

I suppose that Dwyer would welcome this sort of 'analysis' that takes us beyond left & right and posits anti-capitalists as fascist?

_A hyper-wealthy billionaire venture capitalist has faced ridicule after comparing the treatment of super-rich Americans to the Holocaust.
Thomas Perkins, who is thought to be worth around $8bn, made the startling comparison in a letter to The Wall Street Journal in which he wrote of 'parallels' between the treatment of Jews in Nazi Germany and what he describes as the "progressive war on the American one percent".

The letter, which was published by the WSJ earlier this week, begins: "Writing from the epicenter of progressive thought, San Francisco, *I would call attention to the parallels of fascist Nazi Germany to its war on its "one percent," namely its Jews, to the progressive war on the American one percent, namely the "rich...."Kristallnacht was unthinkable in 1930; is its descendent 'progressive' radicalism unthinkable now?"
*_
*http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-rich-americans-to-the-holocaust-9086096.html*​_* *_
​


----------



## andysays (Jan 27, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> One wonders what Churchill's view on the Armenian genocide were?



 The genocide (what genocide...) doesn't appear to have been as pressing a concern to him as other aspects of Armenian culture were

An undocumented anecdote claims that during the Yalta Conference, Winston Churchill was so impressed with the Armenian brandy Dvin given to him by Joseph Stalin that he asked for several cases of it to be sent to him each year


----------



## andysays (Jan 27, 2014)

brogdale said:


> I suppose that Dwyer would welcome this sort of 'analysis' that takes us beyond left & right and posits anti-capitalists as fascist?



He has already welcomed it, on this very thread (do keep up by the way)

But it comes as no surprise, given his insistance that all that matters is whether one claims to be anti-capitalist -  by that logic even fascists are welcome in Phil's big tent


----------



## Theisticle (Jan 27, 2014)

http://www.expressandstar.com/news/2014/01/27/french-comedian-in-nicolas-anelka-row-set-to-visit/

He's planning to visit to offer his support to Anelka.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 27, 2014)

oh joy. Maybe he can go speak at oxford SU they seem to love giving scumbags airspace


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 27, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> http://www.expressandstar.com/news/2014/01/27/french-comedian-in-nicolas-anelka-row-set-to-visit/
> 
> He's planning to visit to offer his support to Anelka.


 
he can fuck off, i don't want him here.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 27, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> oh joy. Maybe he can go speak at oxford SU they seem to love giving scumbags airspace


 
I bet they are doing the bookings as we speak!!


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 27, 2014)

He came over to do a set in london in 2010 - cancelled because not a single ticket was bought.

Here's a site about Anelka's fight against the system.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 27, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> He came over to do a set in london in 2010 - cancelled because not a single ticket was bought.
> 
> Here's a site about Anelka's fight against the system.


 
a billionaire footballer fighting against the system.

seriously they can go fuck themselves.


----------



## Idris2002 (Jan 27, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> He came over to do a set in london in 2010 - cancelled because not a single ticket was bought.



I remember seeing posters for a Dieudonne gig in Dublin about a decade ago.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 27, 2014)

i live in oxford and people like that are obviously going to come and speak at the oxford union but he better not turn up in high wycombe


----------



## Idris2002 (Jan 27, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Here's a site about Anelka's fight against the system.



C'est degolas.


----------



## cesare (Jan 27, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> a billionaire footballer fighting against the system.
> 
> seriously they can go fuck themselves.


Isn't the point that he's advertising for everything he's against?


----------



## TruXta (Jan 27, 2014)

cesare said:


> Isn't the point that he's advertising for everything he's against?


Working within the system, _against the system_.


----------



## brogdale (Jan 27, 2014)

TruXta said:


> Working within the system, _against the system_.



Dwyer will explain all.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 27, 2014)

cesare said:


> Isn't the point that he's advertising for everything he's against?


 
There were lots of powerful men who were powerful enough to realise THE TRUTH, like Henry Ford, Harold Truman (allegedly) and now Anelka.

Anelka would know all about who the richest people in the world really are, given he's one of them


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 27, 2014)

littlebabyjesus said:


> What a load of crap. Churchill was racist _by today's standards_. And the language he used betrays the sense of innate superiority of the empire-building British. He had prejudices that were sadly typical of his time and class. There's no need to shirk that, but also no need to attempt to make him out as equivalent to Hitler because of it.



But then again, what about Martin Gilbert's convincing argument that he was the greatest gentile friend of the Jews _in practice?  _No-one on this thread seems to be aware of his work:

_http://www.amazon.com/Churchill-Jews-A-Lifelong-Friendship/dp/0805088644_

Which to me seems far more important than his clubroom anti-semitic terminology.

Which isn't to deny that, by today's standards, he would be adjudged an anti-semite.  But it is to call into question today's standards.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 27, 2014)

andysays said:


> Well I'm certainly no fan of Churchill, but I'm not sure that this quote demonstrates his anti-semitism as clearly as you're suggesting. The world-wide conspiracy referred to is Bolshevism, not Judaism, and it's no surprise to most of us that Churchill was anti-Bolshevik.



What is anti-semitic (by today's standards) in that article is Churchill's conviction that Bolshevism is a Jewish conspiracy.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 27, 2014)

andysays said:


> An undocumented anecdote claims that during the Yalta Conference, Winston Churchill was so impressed with the Armenian brandy Dvin given to him by Joseph Stalin that he asked for several cases of it to be sent to him each year



That might just have lasted him the weekend.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 27, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> im not sure what your point is here  who's obsessing over how people use language?



Those who would label Churchill an anti-semite on the grounds of his language, while ignoring his practical activities in favor of (what he perceived as) Jewish interests.

This discussion is really demonstrating the difficulties in calling a _person _"anti-semitic" as opposed to an opinion or set of opinions.  The question of whether Churchill "was" an anti-semite is both unanswerable and irrelevant.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 27, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> What is anti-semitic (by today's standards) in that article is Churchill's conviction that Bolshevism is a Jewish conspiracy.



a view shared by the black hundreds and other groups and people of the time who one would be able to call far right and anti semetic surely?


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 27, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> a billionaire footballer



Anelka?  I doubt that.


----------



## andysays (Jan 27, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> What is anti-semitic (by today's standards) in that article is Churchill's conviction that Bolshevism is a Jewish conspiracy.



Haven't you (unsuccessfully) argued this before? I'm getting a distinct feeling of deja vu.

Anyway, as far as I can see, the quote you've posted doesn't demonstrate Churchill's conviction that Bolshevism is/was a Jewish conspiracy.

In fact following your link I find the suggestion that within that article he



> called on Jews to repudiate "the Bolshevik conspiracy" and make clear that "the Bolshevik movement is not a Jewish movement"



Personally, I'm relatively "not bothered" as to whether Churchill was anti-semitic or not, but I am at least curious as to why you're spending so much of your valuable time arguing the point (when it seems to me to have very little relevance to this thread or any of our lives in the C21st), and not making a terribly good job of it...


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 27, 2014)

yeah that is anti-semitic (if that's really what he thought), i'm not sure why you're going on about it though. im not a fan of churchill, he was a cunt. surely it's not beyond the realms of possibility that someone like churchill would have put his personal dislikes aside for the interests of the british state/the british ruling class though.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 27, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> yeah that is anti-semitic (if that's really what he thought), i'm not sure why you're going on about it though. im not a fan of churchill, he was a cunt. surely it's not beyond the realms of possibility that someone like churchill would have put his personal dislikes aside for the interests of the british state/the british ruling class though.




see 'good old joe' and (paraphrasing) 'i'd make a deal with the devil if it meant beating the nazis'


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 27, 2014)

yeah to be honest i've no idea why we're discussing churchill and what this has got to do with dieudonne and anelka


----------



## andysays (Jan 27, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Those who would label Churchill an anti-semite on the grounds of his language, while ignoring his practical activities in favor of (what he perceived as) Jewish interests.
> 
> This discussion is really demonstrating the difficulties in calling a _person _"anti-semitic" as opposed to an opinion or set of opinions.  The question of whether Churchill "was" an anti-semite is both unanswerable and irrelevant.



Once again, you're following your tedious tactic of distorting what people are actually saying, and then arguing against a parody of your own creation.

The question is whether this gesture is anti-semitic. Various people have cited various examples of actions and expressed opinions which demonstrate, to those of us capable of making judgement without distorting things to suit their own pet ideas and tropes, that it is.

The question of whether Anelka "is" an anti-semite is irrelevant here and it will be irrelevant when he comes up before the FA


----------



## Theisticle (Jan 27, 2014)

Of course, Dieudonne is not really anti-Semitic, nor can I think why, in a protest where people openly chant 'Jew(s), France is not yours' would they start singing 'Shoahnanas' around the 0:55 second mark.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 27, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> Of course, Dieudonne is not really anti-Semitic, nor can I think why, in a protest where people openly chant 'Jew(s), France is not yours' would they start singing 'Shoahnanas' around the 0:55 second mark.




   what was this "protest" supposedly about?


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 27, 2014)

andysays said:


> Anyway, as far as I can see, the quote you've posted doesn't demonstrate Churchill's conviction that Bolshevism is/was a Jewish conspiracy.



To be honest, I saw no need to cite the passages that demonstrate Churchill's conviction that Bolshevism was a Jewish conspiracy because I assumed they were common knowledge.  Perhaps I misread my audience.  Here he goes again:

"There is no need to exaggerate the part played in the creation of Bolshevism and in the actual bringing about of the Russian Revolution, by these international and for the most part atheistical Jews, it is certainly a very great one; it probably outweighs all others. With the notable exception of Lenin, the majority of the leading figures are Jews. Moreover, the principal inspiration and driving power comes from the Jewish leaders."

Just let me know if you need any more proof, there's plenty.


----------



## cesare (Jan 27, 2014)

Why the links to Irving, ffs


----------



## Theisticle (Jan 27, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> what was this "protest" supposedly about?



An anti-Hollande protest. Huff France picked it up if you run it through Google translate. 

http://translate.google.com/transla...-manifestation_n_4669107.html?just_reloaded=1


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 27, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> He came over to do a set in london in 2010 - cancelled because not a single ticket was bought.



He's obviously a serious threat eh?  Thank God you brought him to our attention.  He'll probably sell even less next time.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 27, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> what was this "protest" supposedly about?


It was a right wing (anti-gay, trad catholics etc) anti-Hollande demo. Why these terms matter is quite clearly demonstrated here. Imagine if it was a a left-wing demo. Here we have an anti-capitalist demo with anti-semitic chants. It doesn't matter because it's anti-capialist.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 27, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> An anti-Hollande protest. Huff France picked it up if you run it through Google translate.
> 
> http://translate.google.com/transla...-manifestation_n_4669107.html?just_reloaded=1


 
. edited coz was a fash demo anyway


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 27, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> It was a right wing (anti-gay, trad catholics etc) anti-Hollande demo. Why these terms matter is quite clearly demonstrated here. Imagine if it was a a left-wing demo. Here we have an anti-capitalist demo with anti-semitic chants. It doesn't matter because it's anti-capialist.


 
Ah OK.


----------



## cesare (Jan 27, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> To be honest, I saw no need to cite the passages that demonstrate Churchill's conviction that Bolshevism was a Jewish conspiracy because I assumed they were common knowledge.  Perhaps I misread my audience.  Here he goes again:
> 
> "There is no need to exaggerate the part played in the creation of Bolshevism and in the actual bringing about of the Russian Revolution, by these international and for the most part atheistical Jews, it is certainly a very great one; it probably outweighs all others. With the notable exception of Lenin, the majority of the leading figures are Jews. Moreover, the principal inspiration and driving power comes from the Jewish leaders."
> 
> Just let me know if you need any more proof, there's plenty.


You've taken the link to Irving's website out now - but that's where you harvested that quote.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 27, 2014)

cesare said:


> You've taken the link to Irving's website out now - but that's where you harvested that quote.



Yes, we've just been through this a few pages back.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 27, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> It was a right wing (anti-gay, trad catholics etc) anti-Hollande demo. Why these terms matter is quite clearly demonstrated here. Imagine if it was a a left-wing demo. Here we have an anti-capitalist demo with anti-semitic chants. It doesn't matter because it's anti-capialist.



It can't be anti-capitalist if it's anti-semitic.

Anti-semitism is the socialism of fools.


----------



## andysays (Jan 27, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> To be honest, I saw no need to cite the passages that demonstrate Churchill's conviction that Bolshevism was a Jewish conspiracy because I assumed they were common knowledge.  Perhaps I misread my audience.  Here he goes again:
> 
> "There is no need to exaggerate the part played in the creation of Bolshevism and in the actual bringing about of the Russian Revolution, by these international and for the most part atheistical Jews, it is certainly a very great one; it probably outweighs all others. With the notable exception of Lenin, the majority of the leading figures are Jews. Moreover, the principal inspiration and driving power comes from the Jewish leaders."
> 
> Just let me know if you need any more proof, there's plenty.



I'd be happy if the question of whether Churchill was an anti-semite was left to fall back into totally obscurity.

I'd be even happier if you would overcome your tendency to derail threads by bringing up such irrelevances, but I don't hold out too much hope.


----------



## cesare (Jan 27, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Yes, we've just been through this a few pages back.


No, this was a few posts ago. Whatever argument it is that you're trying to persuade of us, you're sourcing it from David Irving. Fantastic.


----------



## TruXta (Jan 27, 2014)

andysays said:


> I'd be happy if the question of whether Churchill was an anti-semite was left to fall back into totally obscurity.
> 
> I'd be even happier if you would overcome your tendency to derail threads by bringing up such irrelevances, but I don't hold out too much hope.


If people would just ignore him things would improve.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 27, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> It can't be anti-capitalist if it's anti-semitic.
> 
> Anti-semitism is the socialism of fools.


 
eh? I really dont get what you're talking about now, you've argued before that banking conspiracies etc aren't like that.


----------



## andysays (Jan 27, 2014)

TruXta said:


> If people would just ignore him things would improve.



I agree, but unfortunately that requires that everyone ignore him and I don't think that is going to happen.

Tell you what - I will if you will


----------



## Theisticle (Jan 27, 2014)

From the protest yesterday.







"France for the french! Jews! Zionists out of France" 

https://twitter.com/Herissident/status/427454258758569984


----------



## TruXta (Jan 27, 2014)

andysays said:


> I agree, but unfortunately that requires that everyone ignore him and I don't think that is going to happen.
> 
> Tell you what - I will if you will


I already am. Not via the ignore button, just by not replying to any of his crap.


----------



## Fedayn (Jan 27, 2014)

Apparently Lazio have made it public they are interested in signing Anelka.... Perfect timing....


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 27, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> From the protest yesterday.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Dieudonne publicly  supported this march of course.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 27, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> eh? I really dont get what you're talking about now, you've argued before that banking conspiracies etc aren't like that.



I'm afraid it's mutual, you've lost me too.

I've never argued for the existence of a "banking conspiracy."


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 27, 2014)

cesare said:


> No, this was a few posts ago. Whatever argument it is that you're trying to persuade of us, you're sourcing it from David Irving. Fantastic.



No, we really did deal with this a few pages ago.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 27, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Dieudonne publicly  supported this march of course.



Yeah but do you have any evidence he's really an antisemite? Eh? Eh?


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 27, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Yeah but do you have any evidence he's really an antisemite? Eh? Eh?



Has anyone actually denied this?


----------



## cesare (Jan 27, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> No, we really did deal with this a few pages ago.


That's as may be. But you did it again.


----------



## Theisticle (Jan 27, 2014)

At the end of the procession, a few hundred supporters of Dieudonné, whose portrait is flanked on one flag, shouted "Jew, France is not for you" and took up the anti-Semitic song "Holocaust pineapple"

http://translate.google.com/transla...eudonne-scandent-juif-la-france-nest-pas-toi/


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 27, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Has anyone actually denied this?



Dexter did. By the way Phil sorry if I've got the wrong end of the stick but I'm sure you've defended conspiratorial views of banking etc like jazz's and denied they're really antisemitic, not that you argued for them yourself. If you didn't then I apologize.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 27, 2014)

cesare said:


> That's as may be. But you did it again.



Edit: Hmm.  I can't find the full article anywhere that I can safely vouch for.  Wiki cites an extract here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Bolshevism


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 27, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Dexter did. By the way Phil sorry if I've got the wrong end of the stick but I'm sure you've defended conspiratorial views of banking etc like jazz's and denied they're really antisemitic, not that you argued for them yourself. If you didn't then I apologize.



I'm so far from considering banking a conspiracy that I don't even consider it human, insofar as its effects are not planned or determined by any human will.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 27, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> I'm so far from considering banking a conspiracy that I don't even consider it human, insofar as its effects are not planned or determined by any human will.



Oh OK, fair enough!


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 27, 2014)

He's linking to anti-semites likes Israel Shamir on purpose now. Pathetic.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 27, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> OK, here are some other sources:
> 
> http://wwwdotthestruggledotorg/churchill_brenner.htm​
> http://wwwdotsraelshamidotnet/Left/marxists2.htm
> ...




Mate don't link to that shit here.


----------



## Theisticle (Jan 27, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> OK, here are some other sources:



Knock that shit off, right now.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 27, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Mate don't link to that shit here.



I'm just pasting sections from the article into Google, to establish its authenticity.  Happy to remove anything offensive.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 27, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> I'm just pasting sections from the article into Google, to establish its authenticity.  Happy to remove anything offensive.


on your way then.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 27, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> I'm just pasting sections from the article into Google, to establish its authenticity.  Happy to remove anything offensive.



Could you not link to sources like that? The ugly truth is a horrible site it actually incites violence on some of the pages.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 27, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Could you not link to sources like that? The ugly truth is a horrible site it actually incites violence on some of the pages.



Fair enough, I'd never heard of it.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 27, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> It can't be anti-capitalist if it's anti-semitic.
> 
> Anti-semitism is the socialism of fools.


wait a minute. you've recently posted about the utility of fasscist anti-capitalist ideas. you seemed quite happy then with the notion that it is possible to be anti-capitalist and anti-semitic. what's changed?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 27, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Fair enough, I'd never heard of it.


it's strange how you seem determined to avoid posting anything from a reputable source instead diving straight into linking to 'far-right' sites even after people pull you up on it.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 27, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> you seemed quite happy then with the notion that it is possible to be anti-capitalist and anti-semitic.



On the contrary, I have consistenly argued that anti-semitism is the socialism of fools.

Anti-semites cannot be anti-capitalists because they attribute the faults of capital to Jews.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 27, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> Knock that shit off, right now.



Those links are still quoted in your post mate


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 27, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> On the contrary, I have consistenly argued that anti-semitism is the socialism of fools.
> 
> Anti-semites cannot be anti-capitalists because they attribute the faults of capital to Jews.





phildwyer said:


> No, I've studied Third Way Fascism, Strasserism and Islamic Judeophobia quite thoroughly, thank you.
> 
> I'm convinced that "right-wing" is a stupid way to conceive any of them.  Because among many other reasons it ignores their undoubted, passionate and potentially rather useful anti-capitalism.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 27, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> it's strange how you seem determined to avoid posting anything from a reputable source instead diving straight into linking to 'far-right' sites even after people pull you up on it.



Much as it pains me to say so, you appear to have a point here.

It does seem that this article (Churchill's "Zionism versus Bolshevism" from the Illustrated Sunday Herald in 1920) is only reproduced in full on freaky or weirdo websites.

So a genuine question (for anyone): is the article authentic?  I wasn't aware of any dispute on the matter, but maybe there is?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 27, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Much as it pains me to say so, you appear to have a point here.
> 
> It does seem that this article (Churchill's "Zionism versus Bolshevism" from the Illustrated Sunday Herald in 1920) is only reproduced in full on freaky or weirdo websites.
> 
> So a genuine question (for anyone): is the article authentic?  I wasn't aware of any dispute on the matter, but maybe there is?


and you affect to be an academic. few of your posts here exhibit any evidence of the ability to critically evaluate evidence.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 27, 2014)

TruXta said:


> Working within the system, _against the system_.



Isn't that what articul8 claims to do?


----------



## chilango (Jan 27, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Isn't that what articul8 claims to do?



isnt he working against the system to try and work within the systrm?


----------



## Idris2002 (Jan 27, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> From the protest yesterday.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Fucking kill the lot of them.


----------



## brogdale (Jan 27, 2014)

Apologies if this has been posted before, but....if not....here is John Lichfield's Indy account of a Dieudonné Bordeaux performance:-



> Looking around the people crowded into the Bordeaux ice-rink, it is difficult to believe that they were sincerely anti-semitic. Most have probably never met a Jew. And yet, in January 2014, to hear 5,000 people baying angrily at each mention of a Jew is deeply unsettling.
> 
> Is Dieudonné a comedian or politician? First and foremost, he is a businessman. As the audience leave, they snap up T-shirts showing "Dieudo" doing the quenelle at €40 a time. There is also a man handing out leaflets for a book-signing in Bordeaux next month by Alain Soral, a virulently anti-semitic French intellectual, light years to the right of the Marine Le Pen and the National Front. Soral is a friend of Dieudonné
> 
> The leaflet man says: "You've seen Dieudonné. Now come and see the man who inspired him." Why not? The master could hardly be worse than the pupil.


----------



## suki456 (Jan 28, 2014)

andysays said:


> Well Phil, if you were as all knowing as you think you are, you would know that's actually a reference to an nonsense accusation that was made of me by someone else a few months ago. If it's a jibe at anyone, it's a jibe at them not Laurie Penny. TBH, I'd forgotten all about it and although it's still in my profile it hasn't been my tagline for some time.
> 
> Your posturing has affected your take on reality Andy,
> 
> ...


----------



## suki456 (Jan 28, 2014)

Oh yeah and, Andy, quick tip;

If you are going to try to grass someone uup to the DWP for claiming tax credits as a single person while living with someone, like you have just done to me, the trick is it has to be true, otherwise you are just providing amusement to said ex and her flatmates.  
Did feel slightly sorry for the DWP guy on the end of the phone though, he sounded embarrassed.
Like all bullies you are a massive coward.


----------



## Teaboy (Jan 28, 2014)

Mmmm, that's some good personal beef.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jan 28, 2014)

Extra rare.


----------



## brogdale (Jan 28, 2014)

So was this (fictional) partner jooooish?

I think I'm a little lost?


----------



## suki456 (Jan 28, 2014)

hmmmm...feeling guilty now (eventhough I bloody should'nt)


well can't delete so, ho hum


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 28, 2014)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Extra rare.


well done, i'd say


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 28, 2014)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Extra rare.



Positively bloody.


----------



## Idris2002 (Jan 28, 2014)

Best served cold.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 28, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> Fucking kill the lot of them.



Slowly, and on film, then broadcast the film as a warning to other fascists.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 28, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Slowly, and on film, then broadcast the film as a warning to other fascists.


perhaps hang them from meat hooks d'you mean?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 28, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> perhaps hang them from meat hooks d'you mean?



Hmmm, a replay of the Plotzensee method...I'm sure that'd appeal to them.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 28, 2014)

suki456 said:


> Andy



Just so you know, the way you quote in post 2558 makes it look as though Andy is talking to himself, about himself.

Which I don't think was your intention.

Unless perhaps there is more than one Andy here?


----------



## TruXta (Jan 28, 2014)

The fuck just happened in here then? Cold, rare beef all around?


----------



## andysays (Jan 28, 2014)

suki456 said:


> Oh yeah and, Andy, quick tip;
> 
> If you are going to try to grass someone uup to the DWP for claiming tax credits as a single person while living with someone, like you have just done to me, the trick is it has to be true, otherwise you are just providing amusement to said ex and her flatmates.
> Did feel slightly sorry for the DWP guy on the end of the phone though, he sounded embarrassed.
> Like all bullies you are a massive coward.



I'm sorry if someone has reported you to the DWP, but it wasn't me.

TBH, I think it says more about you than me that you should accuse me of this, nearly two years after we split up, especially as you're the one who has repeatedly attempted to maintain some sort of vendetta against me, including accusing me of owing you money, turning up here and ranting about me, and, er, threatening to report me to the DWP for something or other.

I have no reason to report you to the DWP. I know nothing about your current living arrangements and have no interest in them. I'd be quite happy never to hear from you again.


----------



## Greebo (Jan 28, 2014)

suki456 said:


> <snip> well can't delete so, ho hum


You have 48 hours from posting to edit it, and you can leave just a full stop.


----------



## Teaboy (Jan 28, 2014)

What a strange thread this has become.


----------



## Idris2002 (Jan 28, 2014)

Teaboy said:


> What a strange thread this has become.


Roy: Do you ever have the feeling that things that happen to us are strange.
Moss: How so, Roy?
Roy: Well, remember when I had to pretend to be disabled and ended up in Manchester. That wasn´t a normal thing to happen, was it? Or when you ended up spending the night in that arcade machine. That was not.
Moss: I suppose those were unusual events.
Roy: And this is strange, what is happening to us is strange.
Jen: Well, at least it will be over soon.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 28, 2014)

Teaboy said:


> What a strange thread this has become.



Looks like someone's finding it inspirational:






I ought to sue.


----------



## andysays (Jan 28, 2014)

suki456 said:


> Your posturing has affected your take on reality Andy,
> 
> Ok for whats its worth;
> Your parents werre both journalists, late of the Guardian (before that the, ahem, Sun, but we wont mention that).
> ...



I don't intend to go through this list, correcting the various distortions, exaggerations and down right mistakes.

If anyone else here wants to take the rantings of a vengeful and vindictive ex-partner seriously and take them as a genuine picture of me, then go ahead.

For the record, I did go to a private school - my parents decided to send me there when I was 11 and won a scholarship. It's safe to say that I didn't fit in, I hated it and I don't expect the school will be using me an example of a successful ex-pupil anytime soon.

And although I'm not in favour of private education and would like to see everyone able access the same standard of education, I've never engaged in any of the private/grammar/whatever school discussions here as I think my position might well be seen (possibly rightly) by many as hypocritical, or at least unhelpful.

Hopefully the derail is over now.


----------



## Greebo (Jan 28, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Looks like someone's finding it inspirational:
> 
> <snip>I ought to sue.


You leave the room for 5 minutes and this is what the media get up to.  And it's been monetised.


----------



## andysays (Jan 28, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> Roy: Do you ever have the feeling that things that happen to us are strange.
> Moss: How so, Roy?
> Roy: Well, remember when I had to pretend to be disabled and ended up in Manchester. That wasn´t a normal thing to happen, was it? Or when you ended up spending the night in that arcade machine. That was not.
> Moss: I suppose those were unusual events.
> ...



Hopefully it's over now


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 28, 2014)

Greebo said:


> You leave the room for 5 minutes and this is what the media get up to.  And it's been monetised.



Who's the Staggers mole then?

Surely it can't be Pickman's?


----------



## revol68 (Jan 28, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Looks like someone's finding it inspirational:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



yes phil because no one else would ever think of using the not at all famous characterisation of anti semitism...


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 28, 2014)

revol68 said:


> yes phil because no one else would ever think of using the not at all famous characterisation of anti semitism...



It's you isn't it?

You owe me big time buster.


----------



## Idris2002 (Jan 28, 2014)

Greebo said:


> And it's been monetised.



"they can take our lives but they will never take our hotness"


----------



## Greebo (Jan 28, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> "they can take our lives but they will never take our hotness"


Assuming that we had any to start with...


----------



## Greebo (Jan 28, 2014)

revol68 said:


> yes phil because no one else would ever think of using the not at all famous characterisation of anti semitism...


Urban is mined yet again by the media shocker.


----------



## brogdale (Jan 28, 2014)

Greebo said:


> Urban is mined yet again by the media shocker.


 To be fair to the Staggers they have changed one of the words from "Dwyer's" 1890's quote!


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 28, 2014)

http://quartierslibres.wordpress.co...ite-power-dieudonne-au-secours-des-skinheads/


----------



## treelover (Jan 28, 2014)

andysays said:


> I don't intend to go through this list, correcting the various distortions, exaggerations and down right mistakes.
> 
> If anyone else here wants to take the rantings of a vengeful and vindictive ex-partner seriously and take them as a genuine picture of me, then go ahead.
> 
> ...




Someone doing a Mozaz here, too much personal info


----------



## treelover (Jan 28, 2014)

> And although I'm not in favour of private education and would like to see everyone able access the same standard of education, I've never engaged in any of the private/grammar/whatever school discussions here as I think my position might well be seen (possibly rightly) by many as hypocritical, or at least unhelpful.



Sure you're name isn't Diane?


----------



## Greebo (Jan 29, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> http://quartierslibres.wordpress.co...ite-power-dieudonne-au-secours-des-skinheads/


Thanks for the link, I'll read it properly tomorrow.


----------



## rosecore (Jan 29, 2014)

Thought some of you might like to read my blog on Dieudonne.

An example of his anti-Semitic ranting:



> "Zionism is dividing humanity. It is trying to rule by making us fight one another. They have organised all the wars and all the disorders on this planet. They were involved in the slave trade. We should know that 90 per cent of the ships that relocated the Africans to the West Indies belonged to Jews and the majority of slave traders were Jews. Obviously, today, Jews are not responsible for what happened but this is the reality and something we are not allowed to talk about."


http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/steve-rose/quenelle-salute-antisemitism_b_4683503.html


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 29, 2014)

rosecore said:


> Thought some of you might like to read my blog on Dieudonne.
> 
> An example of his anti-Semitic ranting:
> 
> ...


 
So how does he remedy this situation? be mates with the far-right who think slavery should never have ended.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 29, 2014)

and there were jews in africa (and afaik in europe as well, not sure), and irish people who were also sold as slaves.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 30, 2014)

rosecore said:


> Thought some of you might like to read my blog on Dieudonne.
> 
> An example of his anti-Semitic ranting:
> 
> ...



What a ridiculous article.  It begins:

"If you believe Nicolas Anelka, his use of the 'quenelle' was a conscious and deliberate "up yours" to the French establishment in support of friend Dieudonné M'Bala M'Bala. But, for many in this country, the 'quenelle' was almost unheard of, and many still argue that it is an apolitical rejection of the state and Zionism. However, it is a ghastly reminder of modern anti-Semitism."

So the article's initial premise is that rejection of the state and Zionism is "apolitical."  But that premise is obviously false.  So the article is stupid.

Furthermore, the most pernicious anti-semitic element of the interview cited by the article is Diedonne's attempt to deny the unique status of the Holocaust.  Such denials are indeed anti-semitic.

However I would note that on this thread, it is the opponents of Dieudonne who have denied the unique status of the Holocaust, through the cheap and absurd tactic of putting the massacres of Armenians at the same level.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 30, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> and there were jews in africa (and afaik in europe as well, not sure), and irish people who were also sold as slaves.



This is true.  However it is also a point emphasized by racists, who wish to downplay the role of anti-African racism in the Atlantic slave trade.  From the eighteenth century on--in other words for the vast majority of its history--that trade was specifically and exclusively in dark-skinned people.  As a result, skin color became an incredibly significant matter in north America, and for the same reason it remains an obsession there today.

Just as it's important to remember that the Holocaust was primarily directed against Jews (despite its simultaneous victimization of other groups), it's important to remember that the Atlantic slave trade specifically victimized Africans.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 30, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> This is true.  However it is also a point emphasized by racists, who wish to downplay the role of anti-African racism in the Atlantic slave trade.  From the eighteenth century on--in other words for the vast majority of its history--that trade was specifically and exclusively in dark-skinned people.  As a result, skin color became an incredibly significant matter in north America, and for the same reason it remains an obsession there today.
> 
> Just as it's important to remember that the Holocaust was primarily directed against Jews (despite its simultaneous victimization of other groups), it's important to remember that the Atlantic slave trade specifically victimized Africans.


 
I know, but this is response to the alleged jewish role in the slave trade


----------



## Awesome Wells (Jan 30, 2014)

I am by no means an expert in all of this; I'd never heard of this salute until I saw this tthread (in fact I don't hink I'd heard of Annelka eiher). 

Anyway I was awake at 4-5am this morning and at around 4-30am there was a documentary on the BBC World Service about all this. A reporter went to Paris to find out whether people thought that Jourdonais guy (sp?) was really a racist. He seems to have a lot of support from immigrant blacks like himself who don't see the Front Nationale as racist. It was an interesting report and I got the impression this guy was - at best - a trolling idiot. If he isn't a racist, and it's hard to think what else could compel someone to poke fun at attitudes toward (or even the even itself) the holocaust.


----------



## theKitten (Jan 31, 2014)

If only footballers had more guts, they'd all show solidarity by doing a quenelle after every goal. To be honest I'd love it if they all did proper Nazi salutes before and after each match, that'd soon kill both the "real" Nazis and the PC brigade dead with one stone. Then we could get on with our lives. And maybe as a result we'd stop paying footballers so much money.

But sadly I fear it's not to be...people would much rather have a good moan and whinge and cover their backs while pointing their fingers. 

And to anyone who's about to accuse me of being anti-Semitic, I used to know a Jewish girl who had absolutely cracking gazongas...never in a million years would I discriminate against those! I mean...her. I think Orthodox Jews look really cool, too. I love to see a Menorah in a window when I'm walking down the street. As for Israel, they're all right at heart, I think they should try and get on with their neighbours a bit better though, stop stealing all that land...it's like that film, "you, give him back his country...and you..."


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 31, 2014)

theKitten said:


> And to anyone who's about to accuse me of being anti-Semitic, I used to know a Jewish girl who had absolutely cracking gazongas



The voice of reason at last.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 31, 2014)

> But sadly I fear it's not to be...people would much rather have a good moan and whinge and cover their backs while pointing their fingers.




how many hands have they?


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 31, 2014)

theKitten said:


> If only footballers had more guts, they'd all show solidarity by doing a quenelle after every goal. To be honest I'd love it if they all did proper Nazi salutes before and after each match, that'd soon kill both the "real" Nazis and the PC brigade dead with one stone. Then we could get on with our lives. And maybe as a result we'd stop paying footballers so much money.
> 
> But sadly I fear it's not to be...people would much rather have a good moan and whinge and cover their backs while pointing their fingers.
> 
> And to anyone who's about to accuse me of being anti-Semitic, I used to know a Jewish girl who had absolutely cracking gazongas...never in a million years would I discriminate against those! I mean...her. I think Orthodox Jews look really cool, too. I love to see a Menorah in a window when I'm walking down the street. As for Israel, they're all right at heart, I think they should try and get on with their neighbours a bit better though, stop stealing all that land...it's like that film, "you, give him back his country...and you..."



Twat.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 31, 2014)

its literally impossible to cover your back, do a quenelle and point your fingers at the same time. Its asking for physio


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 31, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> its literally impossible to cover your back, do a quenelle and point your fingers at the same time. Its asking for physio


wear a shirt to  cover your back and try again


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 31, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> wear a shirt to  cover your back and try again


 
I'd imagine it's hard to do a quenelle while killing the Nazis and the PC brigade with a stone as well.


----------



## MellySingsDoom (Jan 31, 2014)

theKitten said:


> If only footballers had more guts, they'd all show solidarity by doing a quenelle after every goal. To be honest I'd love it if they all did proper Nazi salutes before and after each match, that'd soon kill both the "real" Nazis and the PC brigade dead with one stone. Then we could get on with our lives. And maybe as a result we'd stop paying footballers so much money.
> 
> But sadly I fear it's not to be...people would much rather have a good moan and whinge and cover their backs while pointing their fingers.
> 
> And to anyone who's about to accuse me of being anti-Semitic, I used to know a Jewish girl who had absolutely cracking gazongas...never in a million years would I discriminate against those! I mean...her. I think Orthodox Jews look really cool, too. I love to see a Menorah in a window when I'm walking down the street. As for Israel, they're all right at heart, I think they should try and get on with their neighbours a bit better though, stop stealing all that land...it's like that film, "you, give him back his country...and you..."



For the first (and hopefully only time on Urban) I say this to a poster:  Take your blatantly racist horseshit to Stormfront and FUCK OFF.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 31, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> I'd imagine it's hard to do a quenelle while killing the Nazis and the PC brigade with a stone as well.




ad moonwalking to the mix and you've got a very tricky dance move


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 31, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> I'd imagine it's hard to do a quenelle while killing the Nazis and the PC brigade with a stone as well.


not if you have a huge trap with a big rock like in raiders of the lost ark, though this does rely on tricking the nazis and pcb into standing in a jungle temple in the middle of nowhere


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 31, 2014)

> I think Orthodox Jews look really cool, too. I love to see a Menorah in a window when I'm walking down the street.


 
those black people, they have such a great sense of rhythm


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 31, 2014)

theKitten said:


> If only footballers had more guts, they'd all show solidarity by doing a quenelle after every goal. To be honest I'd love it if they all did proper Nazi salutes before and after each match, that'd soon kill both the "real" Nazis and the PC brigade dead with one stone. Then we could get on with our lives. And maybe as a result we'd stop paying footballers so much money.
> 
> But sadly I fear it's not to be...people would much rather have a good moan and whinge and cover their backs while pointing their fingers.
> 
> And to anyone who's about to accuse me of being anti-Semitic, I used to know a Jewish girl who had absolutely cracking gazongas...never in a million years would I discriminate against those! I mean...her. I think Orthodox Jews look really cool, too. I love to see a Menorah in a window when I'm walking down the street. As for Israel, they're all right at heart, I think they should try and get on with their neighbours a bit better though, stop stealing all that land...it's like that film, "you, give him back his country...and you..."



You're no anti-Semite.

You're obviously just an ignorant dick.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 31, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> its literally impossible to cover your back, do a quenelle and point your fingers at the same time. Its asking for physio



Not impossible if you're the living avatar of Kali or another multi-armed Hindu deity, though.  You could even flick the Vs at someone while doing all that!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 31, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> not if you have a huge trap with a big rock like in raiders of the lost ark, though this does rely on tricking the nazis and pcb into standing in a jungle temple in the middle of nowhere



Easy, you tell both mobs that there are a bunch of BME amputees living in the temple.  The Nazis will rush there to kill them, the PCB will rush there to give them copies of _The Guardian_, and once they're there....squish!!!


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 31, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Easy, you tell both mobs that there are a bunch of BME amputees living in the temple.  The Nazis will rush there to kill them, the PCB will rush there to give them copies of _The Guardian_, and once they're there....squish!!!


i like your thinking


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 31, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> i like your thinking


 
Maybe you can do the quenelle and point your fingers with one of your hands while the hand you put by your side you use to roll the stone along to kill everyone lol


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 31, 2014)

in fairness if that stone had killed harrison ford we would have been spared a lot of shit performances.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 31, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Maybe you can do the quenelle and point your fingers with one of your hands while the hand you put by your side you use to roll the stone along to kill everyone lol


nothing so tricky. you use your foot to press a lever to start the stone.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 31, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> nothing so tricky. you use your foot to press a lever to start the stone.



It all sounds like too much effort


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 31, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> It all sounds like too much effort


that sort of attitude never crushed nazis under a massive rock


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 31, 2014)

see thats why kingdom of the crystal skull was so poorly received. Everyone can get behind nazis getting their righteous due but its a bit different when its implausibly accented commies.


----------



## MellySingsDoom (Jan 31, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> see thats why kingdom of the crystal skull was so poorly received. Everyone can get behind nazis getting their righteous due but its a bit different when its implausibly accented commies.



...but to balance things out, how about a Juche Godzilla clone fighting the good fight for Full Communism?  Take that, Western imperialist running dogs of capitalism!:



e2a: the full film is on YouTube if yer interested at all.


----------



## stupid dogbot (Feb 3, 2014)

Dieudonne banned from the UK...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-26020070


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 3, 2014)

Ridiculous -  but expected. Now They'll all whine about content-free freedom of speech. I want him to be allowed to talk/perform  here _because_ he is a holocaust denier.

edit: this is banning entry full stop. Absurd.


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 3, 2014)

stupid dogbot said:


> Dieudonne banned from the UK...
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-26020070


 
not sure what i think about this tbh.

well i am sure, it's a stupid decision.

he's a scumbag anti-semite cunt, but i'm not sure state bans are the way to go on this one, in fact their defo not, it runs the risk of confirming what some people think already in their minds.

if he'd have been allowed in then i'm sure there'd have been plenty of oppo anyway.


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 3, 2014)

I was actually looking forward to trying to get a protest together against him.


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 3, 2014)

if we leave it all to the state ... well, great  won't be long before these laws used to ban him are used against us. and people will look at that and go "yeah he's got a point".

besides, there's no law against holocaust denial in the uk.


----------



## Theisticle (Feb 3, 2014)

I imagine it's on public order grounds. I imagine there would have been a sizeable protest on both sides.


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 3, 2014)

if they want to ban holocaust denial they should just ban it. as it is he's a scumbag but i'm not sure he's committed a "crime" has he? the FT had a good piece on this over the weekend about france's racial hatred etc laws ...


----------



## J Ed (Feb 3, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> I imagine it's on public order grounds. I imagine there would have been a sizeable protest on both sides.



Really? Who would turn out to a UK pro-Dieudonne protest?


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 3, 2014)

I don't feel particularly comfortable about someone being banned from the UK for saying jews control everything, it's just going to make those scumbags say "oh yeah, jews do control everything" and people look at the fact he's banned and thinking "yeah he's got a point"


----------



## stupid dogbot (Feb 3, 2014)

J Ed said:


> Really? Who would turn out to a UK pro-Dieudonne protest?



Nicolas Anelka, obviously.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 3, 2014)

Al-muj


----------



## J Ed (Feb 3, 2014)

Here's an interesting question, would the UAF join a demo against Dieudonne?


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 3, 2014)

J Ed said:


> Here's an interesting question, would the UAF join a demo against Dieudonne?


Excellent question. Let's test them.


----------



## andysays (Feb 3, 2014)

J Ed said:


> Here's an interesting question, would the UAF join a demo against Dieudonne?



perhaps fortunately for them, it appears they will be spared having to make that decision


----------



## Theisticle (Feb 3, 2014)

I don't think we'd see anything like the protests in France  -where people were saluting with pineapples but there are plenty of people who refuse to see Dieudonne as anti-Semitic. 

It's odd that the leader of Jobbik was not banned either.


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 3, 2014)

Theisticle said:


> I don't think we'd see anything like the protests in France  -where people were saluting with pineapples but there are plenty of people who refuse to see Dieudonne as anti-Semitic.
> 
> It's odd that the leader of Jobbik was not banned either.


 
there are lots of people who "don't" see ANYTHING as anti-semitic tbf


----------



## weltweit (Feb 3, 2014)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-26020070
Anelka gesture comic Dieudonne banned from UK


> The French comedian at the centre of the Nicolas Anelka racism row has been banned from entering the UK, the Home Office has said.
> 
> Dieudonne M'bala M'bala had said he would visit the West Bromwich Albion striker, who faces a ban for performing the comic's "quenelle" gesture.
> 
> ...


----------



## weltweit (Feb 3, 2014)

I don't really know what to think, Dieudonne apparently says the Quenelle is anti establishment, yet he Dieudonne has been convicted six times of hate speech against Jews. .... Was it intended to be anti-establishment but because Dieudonne seems to be an anti-Semite it became tarred with that ...

And, is it so vital an issue that government rule he can't come to UK?


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 3, 2014)

weltweit said:


> I don't really know what to think, Dieudonne apparently says the Quenelle is anti establishment, yet he Dieudonne has been convicted six times of hate speech against Jews. .... Was it intended to be anti-establishment but because Dieudonne seems to be an anti-Semite it became tarred with that ...
> 
> And, is it so vital an issue that government rule he can't come to UK?



He's definitely an antisemite, see the pages and pages of discussion on the topic. He shouldn't have been banned from the UK though. Ridiculous decision.


----------



## Obnoxiousness (Feb 3, 2014)

"If religion didn't exist...  none of this shit would happen."
This applies to approximately 50% of all news stories.


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 3, 2014)

As far as I can tell he's not exactly committed a crime according to UK law. The leader of Jobbik was in the UK last week saying just as bad or worse stuff than Dieudonne. He's a scumbag make no mistake but I don't see what laws if any he's broken (given the fact that Holocaust denial in the UK isn't a crime and various people have said similar stuff here and got away with it) also, I feel more than a bit uncomfortable with the idea that saying Jews control the world is gonna get you banned from the UK when stopping this person from coming over here for saying that isn't gonna prove him wrong is it?


----------



## fogbat (Feb 3, 2014)

Meh. I'll live.


----------



## danny la rouge (Feb 3, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> see the pages and pages of discussion on the topic .


To be fair, I didn't read the thread because the title didn't make sense to me. I didn't know what an anelka was, never mind a quenelle. 

It's only since the story moved to the front pages of the newspapers that I read up on the French comedian at the root of this.


----------



## weltweit (Feb 3, 2014)

Yes it is true there was that thread.
Perhaps I should have added this to that. iyswim


----------



## Obnoxiousness (Feb 3, 2014)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_banned_from_entering_the_United_Kingdom

Mostly Muslims.


----------



## fogbat (Feb 3, 2014)

weltweit said:


> Yes it is true there was that thread.
> Perhaps I should have added this to that. iyswim



Yes.


----------



## cesare (Feb 3, 2014)

weltweit said:


> Yes it is true there was that thread.
> Perhaps I should have added this to that. iyswim


It was added to that thread this morning iirc


----------



## fogbat (Feb 3, 2014)

If I'm unemployed enough at some point, I look forward to the mad scramble to be first to post a story.


----------



## andysays (Feb 3, 2014)

Obnoxiousness said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_banned_from_entering_the_United_Kingdom
> 
> Mostly Muslims.



You might want to have a quick re-count.

Of the 16 names in the first section, "Home Office List", 8 have names which suggest they are of Muslim origin.

Of the 36 names in the "Other notable individuals banned or refused entry" section, 13 names which suggest they are of Muslim origin.

And in the final section, "Individuals previously banned or refused entry", none of the 14 people have names which suggest, to me at least, that they are of Muslim origin.

So that's 21 people out of a total of 66, which is slightly less than one third


----------



## Obnoxiousness (Feb 3, 2014)

Remove 8 dead people from the 66, which gives us a total of 58, then add Mike Tyson and that's 22 people out of 58, which is 38%.  And then consider that the remaining 36 people are probably from a diversity of different religions, so in reality the Muslim faith has a fair chance of being the majority on the list.


----------



## andysays (Feb 3, 2014)

Obnoxiousness said:


> Remove 8 dead people from the 66, which gives us a total of 58, then add Mike Tyson and that's 22 people out of 58, which is 38%.  And then consider that the remaining 36 people are probably from a diversity of different religions, so in reality the Muslim faith has a fair chance of being the majority on the list.



That's just nonsense though.

Why would you remove the 8 dead people, other than that they might not support your argument?

I'll give you Mike Tyson (you're welcome to him TBH), I'd forgotten about his conversion, but this is a list which you suggested demonstrated your assertion, so you can forget that bullshit about "consider that the remaining people are probably from a diversity of different religions", unless you can demonstrate that another 11 of them are Muslim, you don't even have half, far less "most" which was your original claim.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Feb 3, 2014)

We already have a huge thread on the subject. I will merge them.


----------



## stupid dogbot (Feb 4, 2014)

fogbat said:


> If I'm unemployed enough at some point, I look forward to the mad scramble to be first to post a story.



I'm not unemployed.


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 4, 2014)

its just stupid

person says jews control the world, so he gets banned from various countries' immigration departments as well as his shows being banned by the government

yeah that's really gonna show him isn't it all the other anti-semites are gonna look at that and say "what was i thinking? jews definitely don't control the world and this guy is just whinging about nothing, how could i have been this stupid? The scales have fallen from my eyes!"


----------



## nino_savatte (Feb 4, 2014)

So why was Jobbik allowed to enter the country? If Dieudonné is an anti-Semite, then so are they. Where's the consistency? Does Theresa May prefer Jobbik's anti-Semitism to M'bala M'bala's? Fucking crétins.


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 4, 2014)

whereas if anti-fascists had been able to do something about it, ie by writing to the venue themselves, or protesting outside/disrupting his show, then that would have had quite a big impact


----------



## stupid dogbot (Feb 4, 2014)

You're right, of course. Still, I have a hard time having any sympathy for him.

It does seem rather an attempt to brush this under the carpet and hope it'll be forgotten about.


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 4, 2014)

nino_savatte said:


> So why was Jobbik allowed to enter the country? If Dieudonné is an anti-Semite, then so are they. Where's the consistency? Does Theresa May prefer Jobbik's anti-Semitism to M'bala M'bala's? Fucking crétins.


 
they want to make it seem like they're "doing something" about it without actually doing anything and without the political fallout that banning the leader of one of hungary's largest parties would bring


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 4, 2014)

stupid dogbot said:


> You're right, of course. Still, I have a hard time having any sympathy for him.
> 
> It does seem rather an attempt to brush this under the carpet and hope it'll be forgotten about.


 
i don't have any sympathy, he's an anti-semitic piece of shit, but it's not about him, what if next time it's a left-wing french comedian making jokes about rich people?

also, i'd also rather not give any credence to his views that "the jews" control politics and have people saying "well you know what maybe he's got a point"


----------



## stupid dogbot (Feb 4, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> i don't have any sympathy, he's an anti-semitic piece of shit, but it's not about him, what if next time it's a left-wing french comedian making jokes about rich people?



Yeah, very true. I'm not sure exactly what a ban is supposed to achieve, honestly, other than giving the government an opportunity to say "look, we dealt with the issue".


----------



## nino_savatte (Feb 4, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> they want to make it seem like they're "doing something" about it without actually doing anything and without the political fallout that banning the leader of one of hungary's largest parties would bring


I figured that Jobbik weren't banned because they're in the EU parliament, yet Geert Wilders was banned - admittedly by a Labour Home Secretary. Says a lot about the Tories, that does.


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 4, 2014)

given one of his accusations is that jews control the government how does banning him look? honestly?


----------



## nino_savatte (Feb 4, 2014)

I just realised that Wilders appealed and was granted entry. 
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...ers-wins-appeal-to-enter-britain-1802012.html


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 4, 2014)

great so i bet dieudonne appeals and is granted entry as well. win-win for him


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 4, 2014)

i bet they'll try and get him on question time, you wait


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 4, 2014)

Not a chance.


----------



## J Ed (Feb 4, 2014)

Bets on UAF organising a protest?


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 4, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Not a chance.


 
yeh, you're probably right. not enough sleep last night and ive been wandering round with a clipboard since 7.30 this morning


----------



## Idris2002 (Feb 4, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> yeh, you're probably right. not enough sleep last night and ive been wandering round with a clipboard since 7.30 this morning



Oh god, you're not doing market research work are you?


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 4, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> Oh god, you're not doing market research work are you?


 
no, bit more interesting than that.


----------



## cesare (Feb 4, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> no, bit more interesting than that.


Not time and motion?


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 4, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> Oh god, you're not doing market research work are you?


Looking back fondly on your gorilla suit days Idris?


----------



## Idris2002 (Feb 4, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Looking back fondly on your gorilla suit days Idris?



When I was the king of the swingers, the jungle VIP you mean?


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 4, 2014)

cesare said:


> Not time and motion?


 
nah more like seeing whether ceilings are falling down that sort of thing.


----------



## cesare (Feb 4, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> nah more like seeing whether ceilings are falling down that sort of thing.


Fire extinguishers in the right place, fire doors not blocked, no slip and trip hazards


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 4, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> When I was the king of the swingers, the jungle VIP you mean?


Torn by your desire for man's red fire though.


----------



## Idris2002 (Feb 4, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Torn by your desire for man's red fire though.


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 4, 2014)

cesare said:


> Fire extinguishers in the right place, fire doors not blocked, no slip and trip hazards


 
yep


----------



## imposs1904 (Feb 4, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


>



that was good of the gods to leave him with that red blanket. he might have got cold otherwise.


----------



## cesare (Feb 4, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> yep


They got you checking the contents of the First Aid boxes too?


----------



## Idris2002 (Feb 4, 2014)

imposs1904 said:


> that was good of the gods to leave him with that red blanket. he might have got cold otherwise.



It's probably just a metaphor for cirhossis, really.


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 4, 2014)

cesare said:


> They got you checking the contents of the First Aid boxes too?


 
nah.

its the state of the room, the floor, if the carpet is stained, the walls look allright, windows shut properly, the heating, door etc works.

i think if my house was part of this survey it would come near the bottom, there's damp all over the walls


----------



## imposs1904 (Feb 4, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> It's probably just a metaphor for cirhossis, really.



See, I don't understand art so I just thought it was all about the artist covering his meat and two veg.


----------



## cesare (Feb 4, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> nah.
> 
> its the state of the room, the floor, if the carpet is stained, the walls look allright, windows shut properly, the heating, door etc works.
> 
> i think if my house was part of this survey it would come near the bottom, there's damp all over the walls


Ah I see. Not a safety check then, more like a repairs and maintenance thing?


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 4, 2014)

Radio 4 did a half hour documentary on dieudonne. Don't know how much longer it will be available for.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 4, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Radio 4 did a half hour documentary on dieudonne. Don't know how much longer it will be available for.


you can download it http://www.bbc.co.uk/podcasts/series/r4report


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 4, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> you can download it http://www.bbc.co.uk/podcasts/series/r4report


Cheers. That'll do me for my train journey later on.


----------



## Obnoxiousness (Feb 4, 2014)

andysays said:


> That's just nonsense though.
> 
> Why would you remove the 8 dead people, other than that they might not support your argument?
> 
> I'll give you Mike Tyson (you're welcome to him TBH), I'd forgotten about his conversion, but this is a list which you suggested demonstrated your assertion, so you can forget that bullshit about "consider that the remaining people are probably from a diversity of different religions", unless you can demonstrate that another 11 of them are Muslim, you don't even have half, far less "most" which was your original claim.


I concede that your mathematics are correct.  My apologies. I guess that my low opinion of the government clouded my numeracy.


----------



## andysays (Feb 4, 2014)

Obnoxiousness said:


> I concede that your mathematics are correct.  My apologies. I guess that my low opinion of the government clouded my numeracy.



Apology accepted, and I sympathise with your explanation.

And please don't think my picking you up on this means I thinking banning Dieudonne's entry is justified - it isn't


----------



## barney_pig (Feb 7, 2014)

An old enemy friend tosspot reappears in this weeks WW, defending Dieudonne


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 7, 2014)

barney_pig said:


> An old enemy friend tosspot reappears in this weeks WW, defending Dieudonne


Drivel from the first lines onward - boils down to dieudonne is a black man in racist france. The fact that he is a racist french patriot himself is ignored. That letter actually mirrors the white women can't have a go at a black rapist highlighted on another thread yesterday. Go away again Ian.


----------



## revol68 (Feb 7, 2014)

barney_pig said:


> An old enemy friend tosspot reappears in this weeks WW, defending Dieudonne



Link?


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 7, 2014)

revol68 said:


> Link?


Seriously - you can't find the WW letters page? 

http://www.cpgb.org.uk/home/weekly-worker/996/letters


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 7, 2014)

What a load of shit.



> To put it as simply as possible, Dieudonné is a prominent black man and political figure of part-African origin in France


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 7, 2014)

> In joining in the demonisation of Dieudonné, Eddie Ford finds himself with an unexpected co-thinker, which is not entirely unexpected for observers of the unthinking, reflexive capitulation to Zionism that is widespread and so far largely unchallenged ideology of left Zionism on much of the far left.


 
What planet is this guy on?


----------



## revol68 (Feb 7, 2014)

Found it. Who is In Donovan anyway?


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 7, 2014)

> In joining in the demonisation of Dieudonné, Eddie Ford finds himself with an unexpected co-thinker, which is not entirely unexpected for observers of the unthinking, reflexive capitulation to Zionism that is widespread and so far largely unchallenged ideology of left Zionism on much of the far left.


 
that's just absolute bullshit and it doesn't even make any sense he was obviously banging away at his keyboard ARRRRGH JEWS at like 3am in the morning


----------



## Idris2002 (Feb 7, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> banging away at his keyboard ARRRRGH JEWS at like 3am in the morning



Both the keyboard banging and the ARRRGH being accounted for by the fact of his incredibly short T-Rex style arms.


----------



## Idris2002 (Feb 7, 2014)

ARRRRGH JEWS





ARRRRGH


----------



## rekil (Feb 7, 2014)

This a new one? At Oradour-sur-Glane.


----------



## Idris2002 (Feb 7, 2014)

.


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 7, 2014)

Fuck off you fucking fucks.


----------



## danny la rouge (Feb 7, 2014)

copliker said:


> This a new one? At Oradour-sur-Glane.
> 
> View attachment 47953


Ambiguity? I think not.


----------



## TruXta (Feb 7, 2014)

danny la rouge said:


> Ambiguity? I think not.


Still only an up yours to "the system". _Giving it to the man_.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 7, 2014)

Just on case anyone didn't click on coplikers link:



> Massacre and destruction of Oradour-sur-Glane
> 
> The SS soldiers rounded up the entire population and concentrated them on the market square. Thereafter they separated the villagers by gender. Members of the 1st and 2nd platoons took the 197 men to several barns on the edge of town and locked them in. The 3rd platoon locked up 240 women and 205 children in the village church. Then the SS men set fire to the barns and threw grenades through the windows of the church, shooting those who sought to escape the flames


You've seen Come and See right casual bloke?


----------



## stupid dogbot (Feb 7, 2014)

What a pair of cunts.


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 7, 2014)

Absolute scum


----------



## andysays (Feb 7, 2014)

I suppose at a push Anelka's legal team as his FA hearing could use that picture to argue that the quenelle isn't specifically anti semitic and is more generally anti establishment, as long as you define anti establishment as meaning "gloating over the slaughter of hundreds of innocent civilians without regard to age, sex or ethnic background"

Equal opportunity psychopathy in other words


----------



## rekil (Feb 7, 2014)

andysays said:


> I suppose at a push Anelka's legal team as his FA hearing could use that picture to argue that the quenelle isn't specifically anti semitic and is more generally anti establishment, as long as you define anti establishment as meaning "gloating over the slaughter of hundreds of innocent civilians without regard to age, sex or ethnic background"
> 
> Equal opportunity psychopathy in other words


And as long as all the ones on Dieudonne's site of people doing it at Jewish memorials and museums somehow aren't mentioned. (and his holocaust denial film, and songs, and everything else)


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 7, 2014)

If he does come to the UK and his ban gets overturned I think Proletarian Democracy should organise a demo against him.


----------



## TruXta (Feb 7, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> If he does come to the UK and his ban gets overturned I think Proletarian Democracy should crush him under the wheel of oppression


FTFY


----------



## barney_pig (Feb 7, 2014)

revol68 said:


> Found it. Who is In Donovan anyway?


A fat fuck thrown out of the spartacists for being too mad. He was in the heebies for a while, being an attack dog for anyone who annoyed the bosses. The red star commando fatwa against him is still in operation.


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 7, 2014)

barney_pig said:


> He was in the heebies for a while.


 
racist 

who are the heebies anyway?


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 7, 2014)

Discos is for gays:


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 7, 2014)

ohh ok the squeegies?


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 7, 2014)

Today he was cleared of:


> racial incitement by a court in Paris today.
> 
> The charges were related to a video where he allegedly called for the release of a man who tortured and murdered a Jew in 2006.



Last prison video he did was with a serial killer and carlos the anti-semite serial killer who did a fake marriage to show it up as pro-jew conspiracy.


----------



## rekil (Feb 7, 2014)

Heebie Goes Bananas


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 7, 2014)




----------



## frogwoman (Feb 7, 2014)

butchersapron said:


>


 
the voice of the banlieue speaks


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 7, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> the voice of the banlieue speaks


Fucking right, mugs mugs and fucking mugs.


----------



## Idris2002 (Feb 7, 2014)

butchersapron said:


>


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 7, 2014)

I don't agree with you there  idris - diff things, diff motivations, diff material base. This thing  is quickly becoming racialised. It's spinning


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 7, 2014)

Not the best source ever - it's eaten into our stuff.

http://www.ejpress.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=47963&catid=2


----------



## Idris2002 (Feb 7, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> I don't agree with you there  idris - diff things, diff motivations, diff material base. This thing  is quickly becoming racialised. It's spinning



'It's like that, but different'. The latest twist in a long history of bullshit.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 7, 2014)

Dieudonne is a racist. And he has a right to free speech

Prefect.


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 7, 2014)

Ughh (


----------



## treelover (Feb 7, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> not sure what i think about this tbh.
> 
> well i am sure, it's a stupid decision.
> 
> ...




How much of the French left supports him, and how much of WILOTL would protest against him here?


----------



## treelover (Feb 7, 2014)

copliker said:


> This a new one? At Oradour-sur-Glane.
> 
> View attachment 47953




Bastards, again no ambiguity here, time for decent lefts( in the right use of the term) in France( there are lots) to take these idiots on, it looks like many are from the Magreb in descent and have faced discrimination themselves, so why are they supporting what the Nazis did, are they not French themselves?

Can't these swine's be identified on facebook, etc, let their employers know, etc.


----------



## treelover (Feb 7, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


>



Is that from the 50's?


----------



## Idris2002 (Feb 7, 2014)

treelover said:


> Is that from the 50's?



Yes. Poujade was a petit-bourgeois radical rightist who caused some noise in France back then. Butchers will tell you more about how he's not that great a precedent for the wave of shit we're discussing here.


----------



## treelover (Feb 7, 2014)

I know who they were.


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 7, 2014)

treelover said:


> How much of the French left supports him, and how much of WILOTL would protest against him here?



Hopefully we won't have to find out. 

That 'Zionism' shit is pathetic. If someone calls someone a paki it doesn't mean they're making some sort of point about religious freedoms and women's rights in Muslim countries! It just means they are a cunt. Out of all the excuses for racism that has to be the most pathetic one


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 7, 2014)

My mate and I were discussing a Zionist acquaintance of ours and he said that Israel and Palestine seemed to be a magnet for creepy obsessed weirdos lol


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 7, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> My mate and I were discussing a Zionist acquaintance of ours and he said that Israel and Palestine seemed to be a magnet for creepy obsessed weirdos lol


yeh people like ronald reagan with his strange views on how we were living in the end times.


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 7, 2014)

every loon seems to have a special theory. Jishops even got one.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 7, 2014)

barney_pig said:


> A fat fuck thrown out of the spartacists for being too mad. He was in the heebies for a while, being an attack dog for anyone who annoyed the bosses. The red star commando fatwa against him is still in operation.



You have to be exceedingly mad for the Sparts to bin you.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 7, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Dieudonne is a racist. And he has a right to free speech
> 
> Prefect.



A toady to the headmaster, eh?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 7, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> every loon seems to have a special theory. Jishops even got one.



Now there's a surprise! Good old Jizzmop!


----------



## rekil (Feb 7, 2014)

Not watching but there's what sounds like another piss weak piece on him on newsnight.

*BBC Newsnight* ‏@BBCNewsnight  12m
Dieudonne: I won't condemn the people who use the Quenelle as a racist gesture...go and speak to them #*Newsnight*

edit:

Interview up on the newsnight youtube. Let off the hook about holocaust denial and relationship with Le Pen again.


Spoiler


----------



## Teaboy (Feb 27, 2014)

5 week ban and £80k fine apparently.   Be interesting to find out why he didn't get the full Suarez.


----------



## ddraig (Feb 27, 2014)




----------



## scalyboy (Feb 27, 2014)

Should've been 10 games!


----------



## ddraig (Feb 27, 2014)

and £800,000!


----------



## scalyboy (Feb 27, 2014)

He has also been ordered to complete a compulsory education course, following a two-day Football Association hearing.
Write out 100 times, "I shall not make anti-semitic gestures"...


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 27, 2014)

ddraig said:


> and £800,000!


80 thousand


----------



## scalyboy (Feb 27, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> 80 thousand


'But should've been 800 grand' I think is what ddraig meant. 80 grand is probably 2 weeks wages for Nasty Nic.


----------



## scalyboy (Feb 27, 2014)

Teaboy said:


> 5 week ban and £80k fine apparently.   Be interesting to find out why he didn't get the full Suarez.


The commission added it was their finding that Anelka had not been deliberately anti-Semitic. 

The commission statement said: "So far as the basis for our finding on Charge 2 is concerned, we did not find that Nicolas Anelka is an anti-Semite or that he intended to express or promote anti-Semitism by his use of the quenelle."


----------



## ddraig (Feb 27, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> 80 thousand


was in response to post above mine, could have maybe quoted for clarity


----------



## Buckaroo (Feb 27, 2014)

ddraig said:


> was in response to post above mine, could have maybe quoted for clarity



nah, it was clear what you meant.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 27, 2014)

ddraig said:


> was in response to post above mine, could have maybe quoted for clarity


Ah, i see.


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Feb 27, 2014)

ddraig said:


> was in response to post above mine, could have maybe quoted for clarity


you'll have pickmans after your arse you know.....


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 27, 2014)

i don't care how much you earn, 80k will make you blink. Its big money. Serves him right tho.


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 10, 2014)

http://www.sudinfo.be/955219/articl...ait-une-quenelle-polemique-a-disneyland-paris


----------



## goldenecitrone (Mar 10, 2014)

At least Getafix could claim he was on drugs at the time. Tigger has no such excuse.


----------



## barney_pig (Mar 10, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> http://www.sudinfo.be/955219/articl...ait-une-quenelle-polemique-a-disneyland-paris


Given Walt's well known "anti system" views, tigger could be up for promotion.


----------



## Dogsauce (Mar 10, 2014)

I'm never watching Treasure Hunt ever again.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 12, 2014)

LiamO said:


> This one certainly did. Fair play to him.



Btw, this bloke has been identified as August Landmesser


----------



## Greebo (Mar 15, 2014)

And now, mutual posturing; Anelka's jumped ship before even the first of the matches he's banned from playing, and the club's sacking him for gross misconduct.


----------



## The Octagon (Apr 4, 2014)

Stay classy Nicholas - https://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/news...emitic-muslims-terrorists-212905442--sow.html


----------



## J Ed (Apr 5, 2014)

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/jewish-world-news/1.583848



> Soccer star Nicolas Anelka said in an interview Friday that the Jewish wife of French Prime Minister Manuel Valls influenced the politician to oppose the quenelle salute.
> 
> Anelka, who was fired last week from his British soccer team for performing the gesture in December, made the charges in an interview by the French edition of the Metronews daily.
> 
> ...


----------



## barney_pig (Apr 5, 2014)

So to suggest he's anti Semitic is a Jewish plot.


----------



## moono (Apr 6, 2014)

The terms ' Zionist ' and ' Jew ' are not synonymous.   By far the largest US contingent of supporters of Israeli criminality are ' christians '.   The neo-Zionists simply use Judaism as cover. 
Topic-wise-   when neo-Zionists can assassinate your character due to a movement of your body we are in serious trouble of becoming slaves to a foreign power-   much the same as many US Congresspersons.


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 6, 2014)

its a live one


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 6, 2014)

moono said:


> The terms ' Zionist ' and ' Jew ' are not synonymous.   By far the largest US contingent of supporters of Israeli criminality are ' christians '.   The neo-Zionists simply use Judaism as cover.
> Topic-wise-   when neo-Zionists can assassinate your character due to a movement of your body we are in serious trouble of becoming slaves to a foreign power-   much the same as many US Congresspersons.


Topic-wise, tell me the quennelle is not anti-semtic. Tell me the roman salute is just a movement of your body. Then i'll tell you what you are.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 6, 2014)

moono said:


> The terms ' Zionist ' and ' Jew ' are not synonymous.   By far the largest US contingent of supporters of Israeli criminality are ' christians '.   The neo-Zionists simply use Judaism as cover.
> Topic-wise-   when neo-Zionists can assassinate your character due to a movement of your body we are in serious trouble of becoming slaves to a foreign power-   much the same as many US Congresspersons.


Note - 'neo-zionists' - what are these?


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 6, 2014)

this, combined with your thread on Israeli influence over the BBC is causing alarm bells to ring moono


----------



## moono (Apr 6, 2014)

In whose head ?	Zionism is a political doctrine and opposition to it is world-wide.   Parroting ' anti-semitism ' in its defence is often the misguided action of well-meaning folk who are ignorant of neo-Zionist activities.  The other parrots tend to be those in favour of Israeli fascism.
Topic-wise, Anelka has refused the ' anti-semitic ' straight-jacket.   Witch-hunters claim to know what he was thinking.  Any present will claim to know what I'm thinking too.  It's a fight I can win under fair rules.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 6, 2014)

moono said:


> In whose head ?	Zionism is a political doctrine and opposition to it is world-wide.   Parroting ' anti-semitism ' in its defence is often the misguided action of well-meaning folk who are ignorant of neo-Zionist activities.  The other parrots tend to be those in favour of Israeli fascism.
> Topic-wise, Anelka has refused the ' anti-semitic ' straight-jacket.   Witch-hunters claim to know what he was thinking.  Any present will claim to know what I'm thinking too.  It's a fight I can win.


Tell me the quennelle is not anti-Semitic. Tell me the roman salute is just a movement of your body. Then i'll tell you what you are.


----------



## moono (Apr 6, 2014)

> Note - 'neo-zionists' - what are these?



Help yourself.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo-Zionism


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 6, 2014)

moono said:


> In whose head ?	Zionism is a political doctrine and opposition to it is world-wide.   Parroting ' anti-semitism ' in its defence is often the misguided action of well-meaning folk who are ignorant of neo-Zionist activities.  The other parrots tend to be those in favour of Israeli fascism.
> Topic-wise, Anelka has refused the ' anti-semitic ' straight-jacket.   Witch-hunters claim to know what he was thinking.  Any present will claim to know what I'm thinking too.  It's a fight I can win under fair rules.


Parroting? Is this what all opposition is? And don't say 'often' - say _exactly _how in this case the stuff you suggest works.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 6, 2014)

moono said:


> Help yourself.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo-Zionism


Tell me why you are using this term. Tell me why you are not using zionism or or other terms.


----------



## moono (Apr 6, 2014)

Certainly, if it remains civil.
Zionism takes many forms.  My personal dislike is that of the varieties which contravene international law-  neo-Zionism in particular.
It's a brutal doctrine of ethnic cleansing and should not be supported by anybody who respects humanitarian law .


----------



## moono (Apr 6, 2014)

Here's a short list of variants;


> 3.1 Labor Zionism
> 3.2 Liberal Zionism
> 3.3 Nationalist Zionism
> 3.4 Religious Zionism
> ...



It's not my intent to suggest that Anelka thinks the same way that I do.  I don't know what Anelka thinks.  I simply object to others claiming that they do and the reasons they give in selling their assumptions.


----------



## Blagsta (Apr 6, 2014)

moono said:


> In whose head ?	Zionism is a political doctrine and opposition to it is world-wide.   Parroting ' anti-semitism ' in its defence is often the misguided action of well-meaning folk who are ignorant of neo-Zionist activities.  The other parrots tend to be those in favour of Israeli fascism.
> Topic-wise, Anelka has refused the ' anti-semitic ' straight-jacket.   Witch-hunters claim to know what he was thinking.  Any present will claim to know what I'm thinking too.  It's a fight I can win under fair rules.



No one claims to know what Anelka was thinking, what sort of bullshit is that?  What people have done is to look at Dieudonne's track record, Anelka's friendship with Dieudonne and drawn conclusions from that.

Do you disagree that Dieudonne is anti-semitic?  If so, why?


----------



## moono (Apr 6, 2014)

I've seen it reported that he uses the gesture as an UN-nazi salute, a gesture of protest against the encroachments of the establishment into personal freedom.  I don't know what he thinks and whatever it is forms no grounds for victimizing Anelka.
That's water under the bridge.  My contention is with those who maintain-  without the possibility of sound evidence-  that Anelka used it as an anti-jewish reference.  That's absurd.
To those who object to racist gestures I ask where is your protest to other, non-jewish, gestures ?   Show me your protestations against this anti-Palestinian gesture;






This gesture murdered 1400 people, including 400 children.  Is nobody permitted to move so much as an arm in protest ?  Aren't such values half-way down the cludgee ?


----------



## Blagsta (Apr 6, 2014)

I note you're avoiding answering direct questions.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 6, 2014)

moono said:


> I've seen it reported that he uses the gesture as an UN-nazi salute, a gesture of protest against the encroachments of the establishment into personal freedom.  I don't know what he thinks and whatever it is forms no grounds for victimizing Anelka.
> That's water under the bridge.  My contention is with those who maintain-  without the possibility of sound evidence-  that Anelka used it as an anti-jewish reference.  That's absurd.
> To those who object to racist gestures I ask where is your protest to other, non-jewish, gestures ?   Show me your protestations against this anti-Palestinian gesture;
> 
> ...


wtf are you on about? Answer the questions put to you. Directly.


----------



## moono (Apr 6, 2014)

Blagsta said:


> I note you're avoiding answering direct questions.



Not at all.  I can't answer an impossible enquiry.  I cannot be certain of what anybody thinks -  and neither can anybody else.  We can only try to interpret actions.  Has this Frenchman harmed any jewish people ?


----------



## moono (Apr 6, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> wtf are you on about? Answer the questions put to you. Directly.



Asking the impossible scores no points.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 6, 2014)

moono said:


> Asking the impossible scores no points.


This isn't impossible:



> Topic-wise, tell me the quennelle is not anti-semtic. Tell me the roman salute is just a movement of your body. Then i'll tell you what you are.



Can you answer?


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 6, 2014)

I should say that your refusal to answer tells me _exactly what you are _rather than your  answers.


----------



## moono (Apr 6, 2014)

Gestures are movements with meanings peculiar to the individual who employs them.  Romans, for example, had they used what we now term a ' Nazi ' salute were not proclaiming any dislike of Semites.


----------



## moono (Apr 6, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> I should say that your refusal to answer tells me _exactly what you are _rather than your  answers.



I've replied to you with civility-  but I'm guessing that will not curb your enthusiasm for telling me what I am.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 6, 2014)

You bottler. I now know what you are.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 6, 2014)

moono said:


> I've replied to you with civility-  but I'm guessing that will not curb your enthusiasm for telling me what I am.


Well done, you've made the palestinian cause as represented by you complicit in anti-semitism.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 6, 2014)

moono said:


> I've replied to you with civility-  but I'm guessing that will not curb your enthusiasm for telling me what I am.


Did you answer me?


----------



## moono (Apr 6, 2014)

It's actually anti-Zionism-  Zionism in its ethnic-cleansing capacity.  That's already been explained.  ' Pin the Swastika ' is yesterday's football amusement, isn't it ?


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Apr 6, 2014)

Oh dear.


----------



## Dan U (Apr 6, 2014)

Oh fuck off.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 6, 2014)

moono said:


> It's actually anti-Zionism-  Zionism in its ethnic-cleansing capacity.  That's already been explained.  ' Pin the Swastika ' is yesterday's football amusement, isn't it ?


What is? And what is? Answer me.


----------



## moono (Apr 6, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> What is? And what is? Answer me.



I'll answer you again.  You implied that the Palestinian cause was ' antisemitic '.  I explained, again, that the contention is with neo-Zionism, a political doctrine, not Judaism.  Palestinians and Jews are well capable of co-existence.  Being opposed to ethnic-cleansing does not constitute anti-jewishness. Neither does being opposed to unhealthy social restraints - such as the banning of body movements.
Could you define an anti-jewish gesture, please .   Has the Football Association issued its list yet ?  Or does it only respond to mischievous hysteria ?


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 6, 2014)

FFS


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 6, 2014)

moono said:


> I'll answer you again.  You implied that the Palestinian cause was ' antisemitic '.  I explained, again, that the contention is with neo-Zionism, a political doctrine, not Judaism.  Palestinians and Jews are well capable of co-existence.  Being opposed to ethnic-cleansing does not constitute anti-jewishness. Neither does being opposed to unhealthy social restraints - such as the banning of body movements.
> Could you define an anti-jewish gesture, please .   Has the Football Association issued its list yet ?


I did not. Answer my question: 


> Topic-wise, tell me the quennelle is not anti-semtic. Tell me the roman salute is just a movement of your body. Then i'll tell you what you are.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 6, 2014)

Severely lacking on the neo-zionism front too, if you're feeling up to explaining what something so important to you means.


----------



## moono (Apr 6, 2014)

You'll come to see that I've responded in full if you take the time to review the posts.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 6, 2014)

If you cannot condemn this:







Then, fuck you. You are no friend of anyone but anti-semites.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 6, 2014)

moono said:


> You'll come to see that I've responded in full if you take the time to review the posts.


No i won't. Because you haven't. You displayed your moral cowardice instead.


----------



## moono (Apr 6, 2014)

You're quite some way behind post #2781.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 6, 2014)

You are the reason ordinary people support (or at least wont condemn) israel moono.

You are not an anti Zionist. You are not a solidarity activist. You are my enemy.

The israeli state would never have the support it still does without people like you.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 6, 2014)

moono said:


> You're quite some way behind post #2781.


Post 2871 says that nazi salutes aren't symbols of racism or nazism.


----------



## moono (Apr 6, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> You are the reason ordinary people support (or at least wont condemn) israel moono.
> 
> You are not an anti Zionist. You are not a solidarity activist. You are my enemy.
> 
> The israeli state would never have the support it still does without people like you.



You're quite mistaken.  People do NOT support ethnic cleansing, murder, assassination, theft, kidnap and scorn for humanitarian and international law.  People support what the idea of Israel was-  not what it has become.
It's the memory of what that idea was which causes the victimization of over-enthusiastic footballers , not what is plainly evident in the majority of truthful media outlets world-wide.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 6, 2014)

Proper zionism, not that new wanky zionism. A Zionist speaks.


----------



## moono (Apr 6, 2014)

I said that people support the idea of what Israel was.  I didn't say that they understood Zionism and what it intended.  They made a gesture-  in a blood-rush-  just like Anelka did.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 6, 2014)

moono said:


> You're quite mistaken.  People do NOT support ethnic cleansing, murder, assassination, theft, kidnap and scorn for humanitarian and international law.  People support what the idea of Israel was-  not what it has become.
> It's the memory of what that idea was which causes the victimization of over-enthusiastic footballers , not what is plainly evident in the majority of truthful media outlets world-wide.


What are the truthful media outlets world-wide showing proper zionism? List them and we'll check the fuckers out.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 6, 2014)

moono said:


> You're quite mistaken.  People do NOT support ethnic cleansing, murder, assassination, theft, kidnap and scorn for humanitarian and international law.  People support what the idea of Israel was-  not what it has become.
> It's the memory of what that idea was which causes the victimization of over-enthusiastic footballers , not what is plainly evident in the majority of truthful media outlets world-wide.



Dieudonne and Alain Soral don't give two shits about the Palestinians and doing the quenelle outside Auschwitz is no more a protest against zionism than putting strips of bacon by a mosque is a protest against Saudi Arabia. 

You stupid fucking cunt, fuck off back to the hole you crawled out of.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 6, 2014)

moono said:


> I said that people support the idea of what Israel was.  I didn't say that they understood Zionism and what it intended.


Why did you say this weird inconsequential thing?


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 6, 2014)

Fw is nearer the mark mind - answer my questions, condemn the quenelle or get a bit more.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 6, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> What are the truthful media outlets world-wide showing proper zionism? List them and we'll check the fuckers out.



Press-tv, davidduke.com, radio islam, noontide press, institute of historical review


----------



## moono (Apr 6, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Dieudonne and Alain Soral don't give two shits about the Palestinians and doing the quenelle outside Auschwitz is no more a protest against zionism than putting strips of bacon by a mosque is a protest against Saudi Arabia.
> 
> You stupid fucking cunt, fuck off back to the hole you crawled out of.



You're a shade behind post #2781 as well.


----------



## Blagsta (Apr 6, 2014)

moono said:


> Not at all.  I can't answer an impossible enquiry.  I cannot be certain of what anybody thinks -  and neither can anybody else.  We can only try to interpret actions.  Has this Frenchman harmed any jewish people ?



I'm not asking you to say what anyone thinks. That's just stupid avoidance bollocks on your part. We draw conclusions about people from what they say and do. 

What's your conclusion on Dieudonne?


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 6, 2014)

moono said:


> You're a shade behind post #2781 as well.


People doing nazi salutes are just people moving their arms. What do you think that this post#2781 shows? It puts you right on the hook as history's greatest mug rather than clearing you of anything.


----------



## Blagsta (Apr 6, 2014)

moono said:


> Gestures are movements with meanings peculiar to the individual who employs them.  Romans, for example, had they used what we now term a ' Nazi ' salute were not proclaiming any dislike of Semites.



So everything is purely about individual meaning, with no room for communication? 

More avoidance bollocks.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 6, 2014)

moono said:


> You're a shade behind post #2781 as well.



 I don't give a fuck what you think of me.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 6, 2014)

The odd thing is that crass post they keep referring to says that gestures have meaning in context - the context for this gesture is anti-semitism - it's the anti=semitism that makes the gesture, that gives it it's power. Such basic semiotics is lost on our friend.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 6, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> The odd thing is that crass post they keep referrding to says that gestures have meaning in context - the context for this gesture is anti-semitism - it's the anti=semitism that makes the gesture, that gives it it's power. Such basic semiotics is lost on our friend.



I am not sure it is lost. 

_Only a zionist would accuse someone of antisemitism _


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 6, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> I am not sure it is lost.
> 
> _Only a zionist would accuse someone of antisemitism _


Nah, only a neo-zionist. Proper zionisism is reet grand.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 6, 2014)

if you can't condemn this:






why am i talking to you? Why are you here? Who are you talking to? Who are you trying to talk to?


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 6, 2014)

Fuck off and go and find a dieudonne fan page or something.


----------



## moono (Apr 6, 2014)

Here's a headline for state-sponsored Witch-finder Generals and the pompously hysterical;



> * ANELKA JOINS THE BOYS FROM BRAZIL
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/26910888 *


*

Careful with that ducking-stool, Eugene.

My points, I believe.*


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 6, 2014)

moono said:


> Here's a headline for state-sponsored Witch-finder Generals and the pompously hysterical;
> 
> *Careful with that ducking-stool, Eugene.
> 
> My points, I believe.*


Oh good, you're weird too. 

An old man joins a tiny team in what is a humiliating dropdown of leagues to gain the pres some fans.


----------



## moono (Apr 6, 2014)

....and hey, don't let any facts get in the way of a good burning;



> Anelka denied his use of the sign was intended to be anti-Semitic, and the commission reported it did not find he was "an anti-Semite".


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 6, 2014)

moono said:


> Here's a headline for state-sponsored Witch-finder Generals and the pompously hysterical;
> 
> *
> Careful with that ducking-stool, Eugene.
> ...


Tell us about putin dreamer.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 6, 2014)

moono said:


> ....and hey, don't let any facts get in the way of a good burning;


The accused denied the offence!! OMG. What FACT have you brought to the table?


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 6, 2014)

moono said:


> ....and hey, don't let any facts get in the way of a good burning;



Fucking kikes, always crying wolf about something eh? 

You going to answer the questions put to you or just moan about witch hunts?


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 6, 2014)

moono said:


> ....and hey, don't let any facts get in the way of a good burning;


I think that all people who deny the offences that they are accused of are innocent. Do you moono_? And that's a FACT._


----------



## moono (Apr 6, 2014)

Case made.  Case won.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 6, 2014)

Hello Nick.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 6, 2014)

moono said:


> Case made.  Case won.


You've made yourself look like a cowardly anti-semitic dick. I don't want to see what defeat looks like.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 6, 2014)

moono said:


> Case made.  Case won.



Answer the questions put to you.


----------



## MellySingsDoom (Apr 6, 2014)

Hmmm....shall I stick to my current self-ban from P&P, or get moono to actually answer some of the questions put to him/her?  (As per froggy's most recent post)?


----------



## moono (Apr 6, 2014)

Enjoy your institutionalised daisy-chaining-  but remember-	you've been out-debated by one honest individual.	 So it will always be.   You'll see.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 6, 2014)

moono said:


> Enjoy your institutionalised daisy-chaining-  but remember-	you've been out-debated by one honest individual.	 So it will always be.   You'll see.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 6, 2014)

You've made yourself look like a total cunt here. Was that your plan?


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 6, 2014)

Lol you haven't answered any of the questions


----------



## seventh bullet (Apr 6, 2014)

Is this a returnee?  Or fresh scum?


----------



## MellySingsDoom (Apr 6, 2014)

moono said:


> Enjoy your institutionalised daisy-chaining-  but remember-	you've been out-debated by one honest individual.	 So it will always be.   You'll see.



What sort of bloody answer is that?  Ye gods.  And I thought [Urbz name redacted] was an incompetent oaf....

(OK, back on P&P self-ban I go)


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 6, 2014)

seventh bullet said:


> Is this a returnee?  Or fresh scum?


Just someone not as  clever as they think they are i reck. They may return!


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 6, 2014)

moono said:


> I've seen it reported that he uses the gesture as an UN-nazi salute, a gesture of protest against the encroachments of the establishment into personal freedom.  I don't know what he thinks and whatever it is forms no grounds for victimizing Anelka.
> That's water under the bridge.  My contention is with those who maintain-  without the possibility of sound evidence-  that Anelka used it as an anti-jewish reference.  That's absurd.
> To those who object to racist gestures I ask where is your protest to other, non-jewish, gestures ?   Show me your protestations against this anti-Palestinian gesture;
> 
> ...




Oh fucking hell I just seen this. Nobody is allowed to move an arm in protest.

You disgust me.you antisemitic piece of shit - saying antisemitism is the same as opposing the government!

Well done. Netanyahu doesn't even need a PR team with scum like you about.


----------



## Humberto (Apr 7, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Well done. Netanyahu doesn't even need a PR team with scum like you about.



Must be one of the biggest injustices in history though. Can't get_ angry_ at everyone who doesn't get all the nuances.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Apr 7, 2014)

NB I've banned because it was starting to spread into other forums.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 7, 2014)

Humberto said:


> Must be one of the biggest injustices in history though. Can't get_ angry_ at everyone who doesn't get all the nuances.




Nothing to do with not getting nuances, I suggest you read his posts


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 7, 2014)

FridgeMagnet said:


> NB I've banned because it was starting to spread into other forums.


No probs from  me - obv where was going.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 7, 2014)

He _gets it _all right.


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## Humberto (Apr 7, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Nothing to do with not getting nuances, I suggest you read his posts



Even you say Netenyahu (who was democratically _elected by _Israelis) tries to muddy the waters between opposing a criminal regime and being anti-semitic.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 7, 2014)

Humberto said:


> Even you say Netenyahu (who was democratically _elected by _Israelis) tries to muddy the waters between opposing a criminal regime and being anti-semitic.



Read his posts before lecturing me about he was a naive innocent that didn't know nuances. Not being funny but I get sick of people trying to bring the Israeli government as a means to excuse obvious racism. Its like when EDL types say they are attacking mosques etc as 'a protest against sharia law' and the equivalent of someone going 'yeah but sharia law is really bad' totally missing the point.


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 7, 2014)

been lurking since 2005. I wonder what brought that goose stepping out of the woodwork


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 7, 2014)

Humberto said:


> Even you say Netenyahu (who was democratically _elected by _Israelis) tries to muddy the waters between opposing a criminal regime and being anti-semitic.



Antisemites also try and muddy the waters. It's really not rocket science that someone whose kid has le pen as a godfather and who makes a song taking the piss out of Shoah victims and encourages his fans to take 'funny' photos of themselves outside concentration camps is going to be both not exactly sympathetic to Jews and on the far right and someone who says they are that person's mate is dodgy to say the least.

I'm sorry if my last post came across as aggressive it wasn't intended to be. It just seriously fucks me off when people want to say that this shit is all because they oppose Israel, they would do it regardless of Israel existing or not and the type of shit dieudonne comes out with doesn't really have fuck all to do with human rights.

'Even you' - what do you mean by that?


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## Humberto (Apr 7, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> 'Even you' - what do you mean by that?



Nowt. Don't know why I said it.


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## ViolentPanda (Apr 7, 2014)

Humberto said:


> Even you say Netenyahu (who was democratically _elected by _Israelis) tries to muddy the waters between opposing a criminal regime and being anti-semitic.



Well, only "democratically-elected" insofar as his party and others formed a coalition, and his party had the biggest wedge of ministerial pie.  One thing that Fat Benny wasn't, was "democratically-elected" directly, by a majority of the people of Israel.


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## ViolentPanda (Apr 7, 2014)

double post.


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## frogwoman (Apr 7, 2014)

Humberto said:


> Nowt. Don't know why I said it.



OK no worries. Sorry I know that my posts probably seemed a bit aggressive but I have seen this too much from some people who use the fact the Israeli government are bastards as an excuse for just about anything


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 7, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Well, only "democratically-elected" insofar as his party and others formed a coalition, and his party had the biggest wedge of ministerial pie.  One thing that Fat Benny wasn't, was "democratically-elected" directly, by a majority of the people of Israel.



And even if he was, does that actually mean anything? We don't live in a democracy ffs, and Thatcher was also democratically elected but I don't see people arguing that its acceptable to attack some random church of England members in Nigeria or something because of that.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 7, 2014)

Anyway, anelka is at it again it seems, saying that dieudonne is a brother and the only reason he was punished is because Vall's wife is Jewish


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## ViolentPanda (Apr 7, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> And even if he was, does that actually mean anything?



Not in terms of parliamentary democracy.  After all, most parliamentary democracies, even the most open ones, are still about electing a representative, with very little control over what that representative then says or does during their incumbency.



> We don't live in a democracy ffs, and Thatcher was also democratically elected but I don't see people arguing that its acceptable to attack some random church of England members in Nigeria or something because of that.



As I've said _ad nauseam_ on here (and elsewhere) before, what we have is a pseudo-democracy. A _simulacrum_ that mimics some democratic ideals, but keeps power within the ambit of only a small circle, rather than with "the people".


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## ViolentPanda (Apr 7, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Anyway, anelka is at it again it seems, saying that dieudonne is a brother and the only reason he was punished is because Vall's wife is Jewish



What a dick he is.


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## frogwoman (Apr 7, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Not in terms of parliamentary democracy.  After all, most parliamentary democracies, even the most open ones, are still about electing a representative, with very little control over what that representative then says or does during their incumbency.
> 
> 
> 
> As I've said _ad nauseam_ on here (and elsewhere) before, what we have is a pseudo-democracy. A _simulacrum_ that mimics some democratic ideals, but keeps power within the ambit of only a small circle, rather than with "the people".



Well yeah so why do you get people bringing up the Israeli government every time something like this happens, as if the people who dieudonne's disgusting rhetoric is gonna effect are related to what Bibi is doing? And people take it seriously, its like people calling someone a paki and then some chin stroker turning round when they complained and saying 'well sharia law is very bad you know, people can get their hands cut off and I wouldn't be allowed to build a church' I mean really? How hard it to have some basic empathy ffs.


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## ViolentPanda (Apr 7, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Well yeah so why do you get people bringing up the Israeli government every time something like this happens, as if the people who dieudonne's disgusting rhetoric is gonna effect are related to what Bibi is doing? And people take it seriously, its like people calling someone a paki and then some chin stroker turning round when they complained and saying 'well sharia law is very bad you know, people can get their hands cut off and I wouldn't be allowed to build a church' I mean really? How hard it to have some basic empathy ffs.



The problem has several causes, but IMO the predominant issue is that people tend to simplify their thinking so that somewhere like Pakistan is "Muslamic", when it's actually an Islamic republic where there's a spectrum of observance to Islam that ranges from "sporadic and only when the neighbours are watching", to "full-on piety", and a Pakistani politician or religious figure is taken as speaking for all Pakistanis; somewhere like Israel is seen as "Jewish", whereas what it is, is a gerrymandered site predominantly-occupied (currently) by Jews, and Fat Benny is seen as a spokesperson for those Jews, even though Jewish observance is across as varied a spectrum as Islam is in Pakistan, and even though Fat Benny barely speaks for his own party, let alone for World Jewry.
If you think like that, it makes life easier for the individual (none of those pesky nuances to pay attention to!), but in terms of enabling the realities to be debated, it doesn't help at all.  it also (fortunately) makes it VERY obvious, when someone couches their arguments in such terms, that they're almost certainly *deliberately* avoiding the nuances, because the nuances would render their arguments unusable and show them up as the prejudiced crap that they are. Empathy would get in the way of those prejudices.


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## Humberto (Apr 7, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> And even if he was, does that actually mean anything? We don't live in a democracy ffs, and Thatcher was also democratically elected but I don't see people arguing that its acceptable to attack some random church of England members in Nigeria or something because of that.



A lot of ordinary Israelis are racist against Arabs. Its a poison which is reflected in Israel's political leadership to some extent.


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## frogwoman (Apr 7, 2014)

Humberto said:


> A lot of ordinary Israelis are racist against Arabs. Its a poison which is reflected in its political leadership to some extent.



Yeah, I know. It doesn't mean that what these guys are doing is acceptable.


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## Humberto (Apr 7, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Yeah, I know. It doesn't mean that what these guys are doing is acceptable.



I agree. Its awful blatant anti-semitism.


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## frogwoman (Apr 7, 2014)

Humberto said:


> I agree. Its awful blatant anti-semitism.



Yep

Many years ago I used to be quite a Zionist, I used to be worried about the threat of Muslim immigration to the UK and go round thinking all sorts of delusional shit about Israel not being that bad, islamist propaganda, Palestinians faking bombing raids to sell dvds on markets lol, you know what actually made me realize that this Muslim hating shit was actually bullshit, it was the 7/7 bombings and suddenly all these dickheads were on the news and doing opinion pieces talking about problems with the Muslim culture, and I felt so fucking sorry for the vast majority of Muslim people who obviously were not like that at all, that I knew from various things, that I saw in my town etc, and I felt completely ashamed of a lot of the stuff I had thought up to that point. It's sad how some people don't use any common sense at all.


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## Spanky Longhorn (Apr 7, 2014)

I feel old when someone describes pre-7/7 as many years ago


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## DotCommunist (Apr 7, 2014)

it was near a decade ago


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## frogwoman (Apr 7, 2014)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> I feel old when someone describes pre-7/7 as many years ago



Sorry


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## frogwoman (Apr 7, 2014)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> I feel old when someone describes pre-7/7 as many years ago



Doesn't seem that long ago does it? I remember it like it was yesterday.


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## DotCommunist (Apr 7, 2014)

hey spanky, a man would like a word:


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## butchersapron (Apr 7, 2014)

parker pen cunt


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## DotCommunist (Apr 7, 2014)

mind you when my ma's ex went with Saga for his car insurance I mocked him by doing Thora Hird on a stairlift impressions. But he sat me down and showed exactly how much he was saving as compared to the likes of me getting car insurance elsewhere. I wasn't laughing then was I.


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## chilango (Apr 7, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> mind you when my ma's ex went with Saga for his car insurance I mocked him by doing Thora Hird on a stairlift impressions. But he sat me down and showed exactly how much he was saving as compared to the likes of me getting car insurance elsewhere. I wasn't laughing then was I.



Yeah but Thora Hird was a flag bearer for the British Movement in the early 1980s*.

* Yeah,  I know it's not true, but my mate Danny said it was, and I want to believe.


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## Idris2002 (Apr 8, 2014)

I said to the French girl I work with that the earliest hit record I remember is Pink Floyd's "Another Brick in the Wall". 

She just looked up at me, and said, "wow, you're really old".


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## Wilf (Apr 8, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> parker pen cunt


Fuck off, I'm holding out for the full carriage clock.


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## Helen Daniels (Apr 8, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Yep
> 
> Many years ago I used to be quite a Zionist, I used to be worried about the threat of Muslim immigration to the UK and go round thinking all sorts of delusional shit about Israel not being that bad, islamist propaganda, Palestinians faking bombing raids to sell dvds on markets lol, you know what actually made me realize that this Muslim hating shit was actually bullshit, it was the 7/7 bombings and suddenly all these dickheads were on the news and doing opinion pieces talking about problems with the Muslim culture, and I felt so fucking sorry for the vast majority of Muslim people who obviously were not like that at all, that I knew from various things, that I saw in my town etc, and I felt completely ashamed of a lot of the stuff I had thought up to that point. It's sad how some people don't use any common sense at all.



But that's the same as how BNP make you worried about British culture. There is always that aspect under the surface and it's much better to recognise it than try to act like it doesn't exist and when it rears it's ugly head that it's some aberration. It's pointless to feel ashamed of your reaction to anything, that's self indulgent. We can only make our opinions based on the information that we are given, not everyone has access to information though, it takes a lot of willpower to become self educated and even if you have the money to pay someone to teach you then you still give them a ridiculous amount of trust
I think the internet has made people stupider, wikipedia means that people don't even have to look things up, they just go on wiki and quote the information on there as if it's their own opinion. 

Muslim culture has lots of problems, like any culture, it's not useful to look at it from the outside and give your amazing opinion based on 'facts', but it's also not useful to pretend that viewed from outside Islam is a bit of a horrorshow. Maybe not as bad as Catholicism, but apples and pears


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## frogwoman (Apr 8, 2014)

Helen Daniels said:


> But that's the same as how BNP make you worried about British culture. There is always that aspect under the surface and it's much better to recognise it than try to act like it doesn't exist and when it rears it's ugly head that it's some aberration. It's pointless to feel ashamed of your reaction to anything, that's self indulgent. We can only make our opinions based on the information that we are given, not everyone has access to information though, it takes a lot of willpower to become self educated and even if you have the money to pay someone to teach you then you still give them a ridiculous amount of trust
> I think the internet has made people stupider, wikipedia means that people don't even have to look things up, they just go on wiki and quote the information on there as if it's their own opinion.
> 
> Muslim culture has lots of problems, like any culture, it's not useful to look at it from the outside and give your amazing opinion based on 'facts', but it's also not useful to pretend that viewed from outside Islam is a bit of a horrorshow. Maybe not as bad as Catholicism, but apples and pears



Eh? The BNP don't make me worried about 'British culture'


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## Pickman's model (Apr 8, 2014)

Helen Daniels said:


> But that's the same as how BNP make you worried about British culture.


there is other british culture


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## andysays (Apr 8, 2014)

Helen Daniels said:


> ...but it's also not useful to pretend that viewed from outside Islam is a bit of a horrorshow. Maybe not as bad as Catholicism, but apples and pears



I think you may be getting your fruit-based idioms confused here.

Apples and pears is cockney rhyming slang for stairs; the expression which you seem to be grasping for is apples and oranges, which refers to comparisons between two things that aren't really comparable


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## barney_pig (Apr 8, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> there is other british culture



Ill fitting suits


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## Helen Daniels (Apr 9, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Eh? The BNP don't make me worried about 'British culture'



BNP and all of that lark are a part of British culture though, they're probably part of how people see Britain more than any other fringe political group. Same with extreme Muslims.

I just meant that these sort of violent groups aren't fair representations of course, but it is what people see


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## butchersapron (Apr 22, 2014)

Sagbo gets 15 grand fine.

Why wasn't Nasri charged? Not in epl at time?


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## butchersapron (May 11, 2014)

Dieudonne was due to perform at a meeting set up by Belgian MP Laurent Louis last sunday. Laurent Louis was expelled from his party for saying in parliament that _the Holocaust was set up and financed by the pioneers of Zionism_. whilst performing the Quenelle. of course, Alain Soral and Kemi Seba were also on the bill.


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## butchersapron (Jan 8, 2015)

Was looking for the dieudonnist reaction to recent events - seems things not all well in the camp:

Dieudonne M'bala M'bala: Friends turn on France's black, anti-Semitic comedian for forming political party with far-right activist



> Civil war has broken out in the bizarre world of Dieudonné, the black, anti-Semitic comedian at the centre of the “Nazi” salute row surrounding the footballer Nicolas Anelka a year ago.
> 
> Several black supporters of Dieudonné M’bala M’bala, including former bodyguards, have turned against him, complaining of his increasingly close connections with white, allegedly racist, groups in France and what they claim is his supposed obsession with personal enrichment. Their disillusionment is based partly on Dieudonné’s alliance with Alain Soral, an essayist and activist who has himself been accused of anti-Semitism.





> Mr Soral, 56, is a champion of traditional family values and an overtly anti-Semitic polemicist, but also a self-declared expert on picking-up women. He published a book on the “sociology” of pick-up techniques and has claimed 700 conquests. Ms Bangoura initially expressed an interest in Mr Soral’s politics. After an email exchange, she claims, Mr Soral suggested a sexual relationship and sent a naked image of himself (which has since been widely posted online, provoking ribaldry).
> 
> Ms Bangoura, 33, says that when she rejected Mr Soral’s advances, he sent her further emails in which she alleges he said, among other things, that “whites think black women are whores, which most of them are” and “your fate will be to be a whore for Jews”.



French Anti-Semitic Comedian Dieudonné Embroiled in Potentially Fatal Political Row



> When Bangoura rejected Soral’s advances, he sent her a series of obscene emails. In one, he told her that “whites think black women are whores, which most of them are.” Another email declared, “your fate will be to be a whore for Jews.” Bangoura has now begun legal proceedings against Soral for racial abuse.



The Black Dragons mentioned in the first were a gang who identified as anti-fascist in the 80s/90s during that time the serious fighting with batskin and that lot started, but were also repeatedly accused of being anti-white. Whether they went with dieudonne this far was something i was wondering about when this thread was active. The doc on them is here - unsubbed.


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## el-ahrairah (Jan 8, 2015)

wow, that's some unpleasant shit right there.


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## FNG (Jan 8, 2015)

as bodyguards they would have been privy to some very candid conversations


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## butchersapron (Jan 9, 2015)

You'd have thought Dieudonne would have been out there very visibly making the case for freedom of speech given that this has been the main theme of a lot of his _work _in recent years? He seems to have gone to ground though. I wonder if he he's worried that he's going to get implicated in the attacks via the attack he and his goons carried out on the old ch offices a few years back after they attacked him for his racism (in 2011- well before he was on many peoples radar), his holocaust denial and teaming up with old man Le Pen and the national front:



The Brain of Dieudonne:

un point de detail:


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## elbows (Jan 14, 2015)

Subsequently he said stuff, was placed under investigation, and then arrested.



> Meanwhile, controversial French comedian Dieudonne M'bala M'bala was arrested on Wednesday for "defending terrorism".
> 
> Police opened an investigation into the comic on Monday, after he wrote on a Facebook post "I feel like Charlie Coulibaly" - merging Charlie Hebdo with the name of supermarket gunman Amedy Coulibaly.



Taken from a much broader piece here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-30808284


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## butchersapron (Mar 30, 2015)

BBC three tonight giving Dieudonne space to talk tonight - the hebdo murders were really aimed at him and muslims apparently. Who is Shaista Aziz?


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## Sasaferrato (Mar 31, 2015)

Funnily enough, the 'Quenelle' is pre-dated by centuries by a gesture used by another organisation. 'Fidelity'.


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## butchersapron (Mar 31, 2015)

Sasaferrato said:


> Funnily enough, the 'Quenelle' is pre-dated by centuries by a gesture used by another organisation. 'Fidelity'.


Are you going to say any more?

Or is the fact gestures existed before the last decade it?


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## el-ahrairah (Mar 31, 2015)

who are Fidelity.  Google no use in this context.


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## Sasaferrato (Mar 31, 2015)

el-ahrairah said:


> who are Fidelity.  Google no use in this context.



Ah! That is something you either know, or don't know, it is a matter of degree.


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## Greebo (Mar 31, 2015)

Sasaferrato said:


> Ah! That is something you either know, or don't know, it is a matter of degree.


Sort of freemasons, then?


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## butchersapron (Mar 31, 2015)

What is the point of coming on this thread saying the freemasons have gestures sas? I mean what on earth is the point?


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## cesare (Mar 31, 2015)

The masonic sign of fidelity isn't the same as the quenelle, though.


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## Coolfonz (Mar 31, 2015)

butchersapron said:


> BBC three tonight giving Dieudonne space to talk tonight - the hebdo murders were really aimed at him and muslims apparently. Who is Shaista Aziz?


is the doc worth watching?


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 31, 2015)

Coolfonz said:


> is the doc worth watching?


Nope - it's utter rubbish. Worse than Phil Jones.


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## brogdale (Mar 31, 2015)

butchersapron said:


> Nope - it's utter rubbish. Worse than Phil Jones.


as in England's Pirlo?


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## LiamO (Sep 20, 2018)

So... is this a Nazi salute or a Quenelle?

Is there a difference etc?


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 20, 2018)

It's a combined Quenelle and nazi salute. I mean it's there in the video that you linked to.

Who'd have thought such a shocking combination was possible?


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## rekil (Sep 21, 2018)

Just something he threw on as he was running late. Like me and my metallica tshirt. We've all done it.


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## rekil (Oct 24, 2018)

Dieudonne on Robert Faurisson's death. "In a normal world your place would be in the Pantheon" and so on.



Gilad Atzmon has a eulogy on his site as well.


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## Pickman's model (Oct 24, 2018)

copliker said:


> Dieudonne on Robert Faurisson's death. "In a normal world your place would be in the Pantheon" and so on.
> 
> View attachment 150530


didn't have a high opinion of dieudonne before but it's somewhere in the abysses of the mariana trench now


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## rekil (Dec 14, 2018)

This refers to Dieudonne's current tax fraud and money laundering court case.



> In January 2014, the investigators discovered more than 650,000 euros in cash in the safes of the couple's Eure-et-Loir property, sold by Dieudonné to settle his debts, but bought by his production company, officially run by his girlfriend.





His house in Le Mesnil-Simon.



Joe Le Corbeau who created a lot of his cartoons and graphics, was convicted in 2016 for incitement, posting a pic of a man doing the quenelle outside the jewish school in Toulouse where a teacher and 3 children were murdered. The same guy was also pictured doing it outside the killer's house.

Jacob Cohen quit Soral's E&R in July. Jacob Cohen, le “meilleur ami juif” d’Alain Soral, claque la porte d’Egalité & Réconciliation



> He deplores the denigration and surveillance he is subject to by some members of the leadership of this very pyramidal organization.




Dieudonne has a loonfest (Bal Des Quenelles) every year. I suspect Vanessa Beeley has attended at least one, in 2015.

On the subject of this grotesque milieu, Serge Ayoub (Batskin) objected to a piece on Streetpress about how antifascists are monitoring the far right on the gilets jaunes demos, claiming that this was provoking another possible Clement Meric case. Dans les manifs de gilets jaunes, la guerre souterraine entre « antifas » et « fachos » | par @StreetPress



Spoiler







He's still egging his little guys on.



Spoiler


----------



## rekil (Jan 13, 2019)

Belgique : les sulfureux avocats de Mehdi Nemmouche


----------



## rekil (Mar 7, 2019)

Another Soral case. Prosecutors looking for 6 months sentence for holocaust denial.  

Alain Soral et son avocat jugés pour négationnisme, prison et amende requises


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## rekil (Apr 1, 2019)

Dieudonne's trial for tax fraud and money laundering opened last week. He wore a pineapple hat for the cameras. Ananas = pineapples. He turned Annie Cordy's cheese tune 'Chaud Cacao' into 'Shoah Ananas'/'Chaud Ananas' ('Shoah Pineapples'/'Hot Pineapples'. That's the joke. 

Accusé de fraude fiscale, Dieudonné fait le show à son procès


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## rekil (Apr 15, 2019)

copliker said:


> Another Soral case. Prosecutors looking for 6 months sentence for holocaust denial.
> 
> Alain Soral et son avocat jugés pour négationnisme, prison et amende requises


He got a year for this one, twice the sentence the prosecution asked for. Vanessa Beeley's "light at the end of the tunnel" lol.

French far-right activist Alain Soral  jailed for Holocaust denial



> Soral, an associate of French comedian Dieudonné, has previous convictions, notably for incitement of racial hatred, and the court went beyond prosecutors’ requests for six months in prison.
> 
> His lawyer, Damien Viguier, received a 5,000-euro fine for complicity, due to the content of his conclusions. Prosecutors had asked for a 15,000-euro fine.
> 
> Both Soral and Viguier were also ordered to pay a symbolic one-euro fine reflecting damages as well as 1,500 euros in legal fees to four anti-racist groups


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## eoin_k (Apr 15, 2019)

copliker said:


> View attachment 158581
> 
> Belgique : les sulfureux avocats de Mehdi Nemmouche



The details in this piece might be worth spelling out. Dieudonné and Nemmoucher share the same lawyers. One is the preferred legal representative for Islamist terrorists  and anti-Semites in Belgian. There's nothing necessarily wrong there, since everyone should be entitled to representation, although the photo suggests he's not just operating on the cab rank principle. The second lawyer has stood as a candidate for the Belgian National Front.


----------

