# Anarchists sabotage railway signalling in Bristol



## emanymton (May 25, 2012)

Can't see a thread on this already, sorry if I missed it. 

Anarchists sabotage railway signalling in Bristol

So anyone we know? 

Great way to win over the working class of course, fuck up their morning commute.

I am interested in the step up in 'militancy' this involves, and I wonder if we will see more of it or is just a one off by a group of people who got pissed one night?


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## Kid_Eternity (May 25, 2012)

So this was the reason I was late back into London from Bristol yesterday? Wonderful. Bunch of fucking idiots.


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## editor (May 25, 2012)

Fucking dickheads. What an utterly pointless action.


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## DrRingDing (May 25, 2012)

Unfortunately this is the reaction their actions generally get.


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## JHE (May 25, 2012)

> It described Tuesday's actions as guerrilla activity and said it had "no inhibition" about using such methods again. Characterising the Olympics as a "spectacle of wealth" in a time of austerity, it ended the statement saying it wanted "civil war" and that anarchy was "unavoidable".


 
The "Informal Anarchist Federation" - one stoned student posting his drivel from his flat in Montelier?


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## 8ball (May 25, 2012)

DrRingDing said:


> Unfortunately this is the reaction their actions generally get.


 
From a good many anarchists, I imagine.


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## butchersapron (May 25, 2012)

emanymton said:


> Can't see a thread on this already, sorry if I missed it.
> 
> Anarchists sabotage railway signalling in Bristol
> 
> ...


This isn't a step up at all - there's been television/radio masts attacked, cop cars burnt out, MOD transport attacked, premises torched all sorts, - you've just not heard about it. Despite the dicks carrying it out doing their very best to incriminate themselves via woeful communiques


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## danny la rouge (May 25, 2012)

Twats.


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## chilango (May 25, 2012)

I, for one, salute my comrades' actions!

obviously I don't - but a queue of people condemning them is going to get boring quickly!


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## free spirit (May 25, 2012)

> and sabotage to "hurt the national image and paralyse the economy however we can"


 
What are they doing paraphrasing George Osbourne's budget speeches?


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## editor (May 25, 2012)

Burning down TV masts. Yep, that's really going to hit The Man where it hurts


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## emanymton (May 25, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> This isn't a step up at all - there's been television/radio masts attacked, cop cars burnt out, MOD transport attacked, premises torched all sorts, - you've just not heard about it. Despite the dicks carrying it out doing their very best to incriminate themselves via woeful communiques


Yeah i was starting to get that from a bit of digging.


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## Random (May 25, 2012)

This is the kind of problem with the anarchist label I was thinking about...


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## Jon-of-arc (May 25, 2012)

It's not exactly the angry brigade, is it?


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## gunneradt (May 25, 2012)

Which is why i always laugh when cable thieves frazzle on the lines


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## Random (May 25, 2012)

Jon-of-arc said:


> It's not exactly the angry brigade, is it?


Iirc the Angry Brigade saw themselves as part of a rising tide of workers' struggles in the 1970s; strikes, demonstrations, etc. and saw themselves as a more militant expression of that wider class movement. Whereas this kind of action just seems to be single issue campaigning "war is bad" but prepared to use property damage. Not a new development, of course, but unusual to be claimed as an anarchist action, rather than justified with reference to human rights or christianity.


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## Captain Hurrah (May 25, 2012)

fucking nobs.


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## chilango (May 25, 2012)

awesome names though:

*In Greece:*
- Conspiracy of Cells of Fire / FAI / International Revolutionary Front
- International Revolutionary Front / Conspiracy of Cells of Fire / Revolutionary Groups for the Spreading of Terror – Cell of Vandalisms.
- International Revolutionary Front / Terrorist Warriors’ Complicity of the fallen commando John Severino
- International Revolutionary Front / Deviant Behaviors for the Spreading of Revolutionary Terrorism / Cell of Anarchic Action
- Cell of Revolutionary Solidarity – FAI
- Anarchist Revolutionary Front / Deviant Behaviors for the Spreading of Revolutionary Terrorism / Cell of Reflexive Attack
- FAI / Cell of Aggressive Conscience
- International Revolutionary Front / Conspiracy of Cells of Fire / Revolutionary Groups for the Spreading of Terror / Abnormal Cell-Heretics​*In Indonesia:*
- FAI Informal Anarchist Federation, Indonesia Section.​*In Mexico:*
The two souls of Mexican insurrectionalism (ALF-ELF) and the Autonomous Cells for Immediate Revolution – Praxedis G. Guerrero.
- Informal Anarchist Federation / Acrata
- Earth Liberation Front (ELF) / International Network of Action and Solidarity – Anti-Civilization Informal Group
- Earth Liberation Front (ELF) / Informal Anarchist Federation International Network
- Insurrectional Cell Sole-Baleno of the Autonomous Cells for Immediate Revolution – Praxedis G. Guerrero / FAI
- Commando of Free, Dangerous, Wild and Incendiary Individuals for the Black Plague / FAI / International Network
- Luddites Against the Domestication of Wild Nature / FAI / International Network
- Eco-Anarchist Cell for the Direct Attack / FAI / International Network
- Revolutionary Action Brigade for propaganda by the deed and armed action – Simon Radowisky / FAI / International Network​*In Chile:*
- International Revolutionary Front / Insurrectional Commando Aracely Romo
- Commando 8th of December International Coordination FAI​*In Russia:*
- ELF Russia Informal Anarchist Federation (FAI) / International Network of Action and Solidarity / International Revolutionary Front​*In Peru:*
- Circle of Iconoclastic Action / FAI​*In the Netherlands:*
- Conspiracy of Cells of Fire – Dutch Cell​*In England:*
- International Informal Anarchist Federation / FAI​*In Italy:*
- FAI / Artisans Cooperative of Fire and Affinity (occasionally spectacular) / International Revolutionary Front.
- FAI / 20th of July Brigade / International Revolutionary Front
- FAI / Sisters-in-arms, Mauricio Morales Cell / International Revolutionary Front
- FAI / Lambros Fountas Revolutionary Cell
- FAI / International Solidarity
- FAI / Animal Revolt
- FAI / Horst Fantazzini Revolutionary Nucleus
- FAI / Cell against Capital and Prison and its Jailers and its Cages
- FAI / Armed Cell for International Solidarity
- FAI / Terrible Anonymous Revolt (RAT)
- FAI / Metropolitan Cell
- FAI / Narodnaja Vojla​


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## bi0boy (May 25, 2012)

The should burn down an armchair factory


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## Captain Hurrah (May 25, 2012)

ALF-ELF


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## Random (May 25, 2012)

I knew a Greek who always called himself a libertarian communist, not an anarchist. I think he was eager that people did not think he was a member of the Cells of Fire.


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## agricola (May 25, 2012)

Random said:


> I knew a Greek who always called himself a libertarian communist, not an anarchist. I think he was eager that people did not think he was a member of the Cells of Fire.


 
Out of shame, or because he wanted to claim he was part of "Circle for Iconoclastic Action"?


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## chilango (May 25, 2012)

Random said:


> ?..but unusual to be claimed as an anarchist action, rather than justified with reference to human rights or christianity.



Not really.

The ELF, who often describe themselves pretty explicitly as anarchists, have been around the almost 20 years.

Much of this stuff seems to be a continuation of that strand mixed with Italian insurrectionism, which has also been around for donkeys years and the Greek groups which I know less about.


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## frogwoman (May 25, 2012)

chilango said:


> awesome names though:
> 
> *In Greece:*​- Conspiracy of Cells of Fire / FAI / International Revolutionary Front​- International Revolutionary Front / Conspiracy of Cells of Fire / Revolutionary Groups for the Spreading of Terror – Cell of Vandalisms.​​


Proletarian Democracy and its various factions should have comradely discussions with them


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## frogwoman (May 25, 2012)

- Anarchist Revolutionary Front / Deviant Behaviors for the Spreading of Revolutionary Terrorism / Cell of Reflexive Attack​


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## DaveCinzano (May 25, 2012)

I guess this is a case of the wrong sort of anarchists on the line.


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## DrRingDing (May 25, 2012)

DaveCinzano said:


> I guess this is a case of the wrong sort of anarchists on the line.


 
Good work


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## Mrs Magpie (May 25, 2012)

JHE said:


> The "Informal Anarchist Federation" - one stoned student posting his drivel from his flat in Montelier?


In his pyjamas? That sort of informal?


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## Stoat Boy (May 25, 2012)

Obviously aint the sharpest tools in the box. They pull off a stunt like this which will no doubt push them up to the top of the shit list for MI5 and/or Special Branch and they do it on some minor provisional line. What does that transport ? Scrumpy ?

They have the whole of the London rail network at their mercy and the whole ripened to bursting point rush hours, at either end of the day but instead they go for somewhere obscure that nobody gives a shit about. 

No Gods, No Masters ? More like no brains. Divs.


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## danny la rouge (May 25, 2012)

Stoat Boy said:


> What does that transport ? Scrumpy ?


People.


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## rekil (May 25, 2012)

Proletarian Democracy Sports Casual Chillaxion Friday Kommando denounces this lacklustre act of adventurism. Full press release to follow.


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## Pickman's model (May 25, 2012)

Stoat Boy said:


> Obviously aint the sharpest tools in the box. They pull off a stunt like this which will no doubt push them up to the top of the shit list for MI5 and/or Special Branch and they do it on some minor provisional line. What does that transport ? Scrumpy ?
> 
> They have the whole of the London rail network at their mercy and the whole ripened to bursting point rush hours, at either end of the day but instead they go for somewhere obscure that nobody gives a shit about.
> 
> No Gods, No Masters ? More like no brains. Divs.


do you know the difference between provisional and provincial? what was that you were saying about no brains?

people in london wanting to do this sort of thing would of course have 'the whole of the london rail network' at their mercy; people living out towards bristol presumably have to make do with what's on their doorstep. and i think you'll find there's quite a number of people, living in, er, bristol and so on who give a shit about what happens there. your condescension, and your ignorance, makes you look a right fuckwit.


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## danny la rouge (May 25, 2012)

There's people in Bristol?  I thought it was just cider.


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## treelover (May 26, 2012)

in the early 90's animal rights activists(not the main ALF) mostly youngsters firebombed butchers, slaughterhouses, etc, and smashed more windows than crystal palace, but this was hardly reported on, now they(the radicals) are doing some pretty heavy and imo stupid damage, why isn't the press picking up on it?


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## Puddy_Tat (May 26, 2012)

> The "Informal Anarchist Federation"


 
Is there a Formal Anarchist Federation then?


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## Mrs Magpie (May 26, 2012)

Puddy_Tat said:


> Is there a Formal Anarchist Federation then?


Splitters. They didn't like dress down Fridays.


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## Puddy_Tat (May 26, 2012)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Splitters. They didn't like dress down Fridays.


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## stuff_it (May 26, 2012)

> Prole dem crew's attempts to bunk the train back from rave in Bristol go awry


 
PD's youth wing in splitter action.


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## Pickman's model (May 26, 2012)

treelover said:


> in the early 90's animal rights activists(not the main ALF) mostly youngsters firebombed butchers, slaughterhouses, etc, and smashed more windows than crystal palace, but this was hardly reported on, now they(the radicals) are doing some pretty heavy and imo stupid damage, why isn't the press picking up on it?


You have noticed this signal thing's been well covered, haven't you?


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## Louis MacNeice (May 26, 2012)

Stoat Boy said:


> Obviously aint the sharpest tools in the box. They pull off a stunt like this which will no doubt push them up to the top of the shit list for MI5 and/or Special Branch and they do it on some minor provisional line. *What does that transport ? Scrumpy ?*


 
No, just loads of ignorant stereotypes in case you ever run out of them.

Louis MacNeice


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## Nice one (May 26, 2012)

so have the iaf got links to the provinical ira or not?


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## Jon-of-arc (May 26, 2012)

I once wanted to burn down the offices of GEO (profiteering private prison running pricks, who seem to specialise in immigration centres in this country, and used to have their head office on an anonymous little industrial estate a few hundred yards from where I lived...). I came up with a plan involving ladders and climbing over railway lines and shit, and we even had a little recce of the site. But when I shared my arson based suggestions, everyone else pussied out, and it was at least a 3 person job. Probably saved me a fairly lengthy prison sentence, looking back, but part of me wishes I had...


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## articul8 (May 26, 2012)

I'm wondering whether Network Rail isn't the name of another anarchist sect determined to fuck up the track and infrastructure?


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## Geri (May 26, 2012)

Stoat Boy said:


> They have the whole of the London rail network at their mercy and the whole ripened to bursting point rush hours, at either end of the day but instead they go for somewhere obscure that nobody gives a shit about.


 
You do know that Bristol is a city, right? It's not an obscure place that 'nobody gives a shit about' you utter wanker.

Having said that, these people are idiots because the MOD building is north of Bristol so I doubt very much that attacking signals somewhere south of Bristol is going to affect them that much.


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## AverageJoe (May 26, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> people in london wanting to do this sort of thing would of course have 'the whole of the london rail network' at their mercy


 
They could have always got the train up to London and then set fire to the signals up.....oh.


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## SpookyFrank (May 26, 2012)

Stoat Boy said:


> Obviously aint the sharpest tools in the box. They pull off a stunt like this which will no doubt push them up to the top of the shit list for MI5 and/or Special Branch and they do it on some minor provisional line. What does that transport ? Scrumpy ?
> 
> They have the whole of the London rail network at their mercy and the whole ripened to bursting point rush hours, at either end of the day but instead they go for somewhere obscure that nobody gives a shit about.
> 
> No Gods, No Masters ? More like no brains. Divs.


 
No more cocaine for you today little man.


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## JimW (May 26, 2012)

copliker said:


> Proletarian Democracy Sports Casual Chillaxion Friday Kommando denounces this lacklustre act of adventurism. Full press release to follow.


Quite, our acts of adventurism have always positively sparkled with the intergalactic star-power only PD can muster.


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## barney_pig (May 26, 2012)

A suitable argument for a more structured approach to activism and clearly demonstrating the need for a dress code on black bloc manifestations.
 This is why Proletarian Democracy always have bouncers at the start of all demonstrations; "no jeans, no trainers". otherwise we would have nothing but anarchy.


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## Mrs Magpie (May 26, 2012)

Stoat Boy said:


> some minor provisional line.


As opposed to the the Real GWR


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## barney_pig (May 26, 2012)

JimW said:


> Quite, our acts of adventurism have always positively sparkled with the intergalactic star-power only PD can muster.


the Proletarian Democracy summer offensive is seeking to complete the revolutionary Death Star in order to launch a preemptive strike against the Marlow/ Bourne End Branch line. (get them before they get us)


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## two sheds (May 26, 2012)

Kid_Eternity said:


> So this was the reason I was late back into London from Bristol yesterday? Wonderful. Bunch of fucking idiots.


 
Self, self, self. 

What about the struggle of the workers, comrade?


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## barney_pig (May 26, 2012)




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## dylanredefined (May 26, 2012)

treelover said:


> in the early 90's animal rights activists(not the main ALF) mostly youngsters firebombed butchers, slaughterhouses, etc, and smashed more windows than crystal palace, but this was hardly reported on, now they(the radicals) are doing some pretty heavy and imo stupid damage, why isn't the press picking up on it?


        Yes it was. Unfortunately they were always second rate terrorists.IRA blow up canary wharf, Animal rights type engage in petty vandalism.


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## likesfish (May 26, 2012)

Half a dozen pratts do some minor vandalism not in london the secuirty services have given Reg some overtime to try to produce a currant list of anarchist groups he must love computers saves on gallons of tippex.
   Obviously its a false flag opp to blacken the name of anarchist groups.
  Although if they want to destroy vital infra structure getting a job with balfour beatty  or joing the goverment would be a better bet 
   Anarchists wanting to overthrow capitalism complaining newsinternational and other mass capitlist media wont cover there actions hmm? Cant imagine why


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## Bernie Gunther (May 26, 2012)

Given the numerous recent revelations about undercover police infiltrators in obviously benign (to life and limb if not profit margins) protest organisations, one has to wonder what percentage of these nob-heads are actually undercover cops?

If they're infiltrating clearly harmless eco-hippies (often to the point of ejaculating into them) then presumably they're also infiltrating groups like this.

Of course that does raise the question of provocation.


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## likesfish (May 26, 2012)

Not sure they have if this group was large enough to have appeared on the radar of the police it would probably got enough members to point out that this was stupid dangerous and pointless campaign.


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## ViolentPanda (May 26, 2012)

Stoat Boy said:


> Obviously aint the sharpest tools in the box. They pull off a stunt like this which will no doubt push them up to the top of the shit list for MI5 and/or Special Branch and they do it on some minor provisional line. What does that transport ? Scrumpy ?


 
You're pre-supposing that the security services had nothing to do with it.

It's not as if they haven't mounted the occasional infiltration or the occasional provocation.


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## ViolentPanda (May 26, 2012)

Bernie Gunther said:


> Given the numerous recent revelations about undercover police infiltrators in obviously benign (to life and limb if not profit margins) protest organisations, one has to wonder what percentage of these nob-heads are actually undercover cops?


 
Quite.

Shades of Chesterton.



> If they're infiltrating clearly harmless eco-hippies (often to the point of ejaculating into them) then presumably they're also infiltrating groups like this.
> 
> Of course that does raise the question of provocation.


 
Although we still have the whole public interest immunity _schtick_ to protect the state and its agents from exposure.


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## sunnysidedown (May 26, 2012)




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## DaveCinzano (May 26, 2012)

Perhaps it is worth bearing in mind that the last time a similar act of sabotage was committed on the railway in Bristol by some clandestine group or other which then issued a communiqué subsequently picked up by the mainstream media, it led to raids on Bristol IndyMedia and the seizure of its server.

http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/bristol-indymedia-press-release-pre-server-seizure-2.48967/
http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/the-return-of-bim.50228/
http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/bim-server-seized-late-today.49199/
etc


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## likesfish (May 26, 2012)

If Mi5 was after more money which is why they'd start a campaign like this I think having trained operatives a big fuck off budget and access to weaponary.
  I'd hope the op would be a bit more impressive than some vandalism.


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## ViolentPanda (May 26, 2012)

DaveCinzano said:


> Perhaps it is worth bearing in mind that the last time a similar act of sabotage was committed on the railway in Bristol by some clandestine group or other which then issued a communiqué subsequently picked up by the mainstream media, it led to raids on Bristol IndyMedia and the seizure of its server.
> 
> http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/bristol-indymedia-press-release-pre-server-seizure-2.48967/
> http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/the-return-of-bim.50228/
> ...


 
Depends on whether the Old Bill have a zaskar _manque_ helping them this time, surely?


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## ViolentPanda (May 26, 2012)

likesfish said:


> If Mi5 was after more money which is why they'd start a campaign like this I think having trained operatives a big fuck off budget and access to weaponary.
> I'd hope the op would be a bit more impressive than some vandalism.


 
Start with a couple of "establishing actions" to get the knobbers in the public mind, then go for the main action.

Then again, perhaps I'm complimenting them with more tactical _nous_ than they actually have.


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## likesfish (May 26, 2012)

Tbf mi5 have plenty of cash because of jihadists they dont really need to invent threats.
 if you were going to invent a terrorist threat Britstol anarchist wouldn't be my first choice can you even be threatining with a Bristol accent?


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## bignose1 (May 26, 2012)

editor said:


> Fucking dickheads. What an utterly pointless action.


Ha ha 'points'less....


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## Mrs Magpie (May 26, 2012)

likesfish said:


> if you were going to invent a terrorist threat Britstol anarchist wouldn't be my first choice can you even be threatining with a Bristol accent?


Listen very carefully, we have a scary agendal.


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## DaveCinzano (May 26, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> You're pre-supposing that the security services had nothing to do with it.
> 
> It's not as if they haven't mounted the occasional infiltration or the occasional provocation.


 
Are you suggesting that a sleeper cell went off the rails?


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## ViolentPanda (May 26, 2012)

DaveCinzano said:


> Are you suggesting that a sleeper cell went off the rails?


 
Or perhaps they misread the signals.


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## William of Walworth (May 26, 2012)

As someone who generally has lots of time/respect for liberatarian/anarcho ideas and people**  , I still think this latest Bristol-area action seems like the ill thought out idiocy of some numpties.

Who don't seem to give a shit about who and what people they piss off.

They need a better spin doctor! 

Losers'd better not try and do the same thing tomorrow -- we're travelling back to Bristol in the morning. By train! 

**(anarchists : so much more _laid back_ and into pubs, festivals, parties, etc than the more ranty and dour Trots! Fatter dreads and better sounds ....  )


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## Kid_Eternity (May 26, 2012)

two sheds said:


> Self, self, self.
> 
> What about the struggle of the workers, comrade?



Everyone on my train was property owning capitalists I take it? You really think endangering people's lives with acts like this will advance any workers agenda?


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## Mr.Bishie (May 26, 2012)

Shit target was shit.

Assassinate Assad maybe?


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## two sheds (May 26, 2012)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Everyone on my train was property owning capitalists I take it? You really think endangering people's lives with acts like this will advance any workers agenda?


 
Nope I'd agree with previous opinions that they're a bunch of numpties possibly egged on by undercover police 

(sorry first post wasn't serious)


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## DrRingDing (May 26, 2012)

two sheds said:


> Nope I'd agree with previous opinions that they're a bunch of numpties possibly egged on by undercover police


 
You'd be wrong to think that IMO. They are not trying to appeal to middle aged activists.


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## two sheds (May 26, 2012)

DrRingDing said:


> You'd be wrong to think that IMO. They are not trying to appeal to middle aged activists.


 
don't understand how that relates to what I said - 'They' being saboteurs?


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## SpineyNorman (May 27, 2012)

DrRingDing said:


> You'd be wrong to think that IMO. They are not trying to appeal to middle aged activists.


 
Our wesident wadical sticking it to the man!

I suspect they've pissed off a lot more than "middle aged activists"


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## petee (May 27, 2012)

emanymton said:


> Great way to win over the working class of course, fuck up their morning commute.


right, here in nyc critical mass like to gum up traffic on friday at evening rush hour, just the ticket.


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## DJ Squelch (May 27, 2012)

http://www.mailonsunday.co.uk/news/...nuclear-chief-sabotage-cables-UK-railway.html


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## chilango (May 27, 2012)

On the night of May 23rd May 2012 in Guildford.
Beneath an angry sky, we crept through the streets, watched over only by a bloody moon as we danced with an unfettered joy in our livid hearts.
We were like nightmares to the sleeping bourgeoisie who lay like complacent swine in their soft beds.
We strode on and on down the high street, slightly damaging things and painting over local bus timetables as public transport acts as yet another conduit for the circulation of people as commodities.

The streets are ours with hatred in our hearts.
Guildford IAF. In solidarity and love with the Conspiracy of Cells of Fire.

(posted on Libcom)


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## chilango (May 27, 2012)

Or you could have hours (well, minutes) of fun with this....

http://www.objectivechance.com/automatic_insurrection


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## Mrs Magpie (May 27, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Or perhaps they misread the signals.


I think their action has hit the buffers now.


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## DaveCinzano (May 27, 2012)

chilango said:


> On the night of May 23rd May 2012 in Guildford.
> Beneath an angry sky, we crept through the streets, watched over only by a bloody moon as we danced with an unfettered joy in our livid hearts.



Aha - vampire buffet slayers.


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## DrRingDing (May 27, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> I suspect they've pissed off a lot more than "middle aged activists"


 
...and half-baked trots.


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## butchersapron (May 27, 2012)

DrRingDing said:
			
		

> ...and half-baked trots.



...and people whose doors are now likely to be going in.


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## two sheds (May 27, 2012)

DrRingDing said:


> ...and half-baked trots.


 
Don't know about him but you got me wrong, I'm more of an old passivist.


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## SpineyNorman (May 27, 2012)

DrRingDing said:


> ...and half-baked trots.


 
...and sane anarchists by the looks of this thread.


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## Captain Hurrah (May 27, 2012)

William of Walworth said:


> anarchists : so much more laid back and into pubs, festivals, parties, etc than the more ranty and dour Trots! Fatter dreads and better sounds


 
I think we need to differentiate between annakisseds and anarchists.


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## DrRingDing (May 27, 2012)

two sheds said:


> Don't know about him but you got me wrong, I'm more of an old passivist.


 
I didn't mean you sheds.


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## Roadkill (May 27, 2012)

Stoat Boy said:


> Obviously aint the sharpest tools in the box. They pull off a stunt like this which will no doubt push them up to the top of the shit list for MI5 and/or Special Branch and they do it on some minor provisional line. What does that transport ? Scrumpy ?
> 
> They have the whole of the London rail network at their mercy and the whole ripened to bursting point rush hours, at either end of the day but instead they go for somewhere obscure that nobody gives a shit about.


 
Ignorant, parochial wanker.


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## butchersapron (May 27, 2012)

Roadkill said:


> Ignorant, parochial wanker.


Indeed he is - two of the busiest lines in the country on top of the other crap he posted.


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## Citizen66 (May 27, 2012)

Seems a particularly dickish action. Tinkering with railway signals places both working class passengers and drivers at danger of serious harm.


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## ViolentPanda (May 27, 2012)

chilango said:


> On the night of May 23rd May 2012 in Guildford.
> Beneath an angry sky, we crept through the streets, watched over only by a bloody moon as we danced with an unfettered joy in our livid hearts.
> We were like nightmares to the sleeping bourgeoisie who lay like complacent swine in their soft beds.
> We strode on and on down the high street, slightly damaging things and painting over local bus timetables as public transport acts as yet another conduit for the circulation of people as commodities.
> ...


 
Someone really should sever frogwoman's internet connection.


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## ViolentPanda (May 27, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> ...and people whose doors are now likely to be going in.


 
Likely to be a fair bit of collateral damage on that score, even if the Old Bill already know who did it. Never ones to miss an opportunity to "gather intelligence".


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## Citizen66 (May 27, 2012)

Sorry to go all Jazzz but could this be agent provocateurs? Or are this group bona fide and fucking stupid?


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## ViolentPanda (May 27, 2012)

That _Mail_ article sucks whale cock, and the comments are a fantastic illustration of the political ignorance of some of their readership. Amusing that the journo chooses to introduce the concept of "low-intensity war" so early in the game. One might, if one were cynical, believe he was reading from a crib sheet written by a spook who'd read Kitson's "Low-Intensity Operations" and "Gangs and Counter-Gangs".

Not that I'm that cynical, oh no...not me...


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## Random (May 27, 2012)

Citizen66 said:


> Sorry to go all Jazzz but could this be agent provocateurs? Or are this group bona fide and fucking stupid?


I don't think anyone's heard of the groups before. My instinct, and Occam's Razor, would say that they're a real group of silly billies. The outed police infiltrators didn't really do any provocations, they were there to gather info.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 27, 2012)

Citizen66 said:


> Sorry to go all Jazzz but could this be agent provocateurs? Or are this group bona fide and fucking stupid?


 
It's hardly "going all Jazzz" (that sounds really sleazy!!) to speculate that our security services might have done something they actually have previous form for.


----------



## Citizen66 (May 27, 2012)

Random said:


> I don't think anyone's heard of the groups before. My instinct, and Occam's Razor, would say that they're a real group of silly billies. The outed police infiltrators didn't really do any provocations, they were there to gather info.



I just can't get my head around how a genuine anarchist group would do an action that put working class people at risk of harm.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 27, 2012)

Random said:


> I don't think anyone's heard of the groups before. My instinct, and Occam's Razor, would say that they're a real group of silly billies. The outed police infiltrators didn't really do any provocations, they were there to gather info.


 
Actually, you're applying Occam's Razor after you've implicitly categorised this as a police operation. 

Apply Occam's Razor on the assumption that it's an intelligence op, and (apologies for the cliché!) it cuts both ways.


----------



## Citizen66 (May 27, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Actually, you're applying Occam's Razor after you've implicitly categorised this as a police operation.
> 
> Apply Occam's Razor on the assumption that it's an intelligence op, and (apologies for the cliché!) it cuts both ways.



No he didn't do that. He compared it police ops after applying occam's razor.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 27, 2012)

Citizen66 said:


> I just can't get my head around how a genuine anarchist group would do an action that put working class people at risk of harm.


 
I can't see how a "genuine anarchist group" could say that they want a "civil war", when what is needed is class war.


----------



## Citizen66 (May 27, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> I can't see how a "genuine anarchist group" could say that they want a "civil war", when what is needed is class war.



But wouldn't a class war in England be a civil war?


----------



## DaveCinzano (May 27, 2012)

Random said:


> I don't think anyone's heard of the groups before.


 
Really?


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 27, 2012)

Citizen66 said:


> No he didn't do that. He compared it police ops after applying occam's razor.


 
I haven't had my first cuppa of the day yet.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 27, 2012)

Citizen66 said:


> But wouldn't a class war in England be a civil war?


 
Not in the "traditional" sense of the word, given that most examples of civil war haven't been "class vs. class", but more along the lines of (and please pardon the jargon) "affinity groups vs. affinity groups".

And remember, comrade: "*No war* but the class war!".


----------



## Citizen66 (May 27, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> I haven't had my first cuppa of the day yet.



I'm on my second cup of tea.


----------



## chilango (May 27, 2012)

Citizen66 said:


> Sorry to go all Jazzz but could this be agent provocateurs? Or are this group bona fide and fucking stupid?



My guess, and it's just a guess, is that they're real.

There's always been a few in ( or around ) the anarchist scene attracted to such "actions". Most grow out if it before getting around to actually doing much. In the past the likes of the AR fringes and the ELF have provided an outlet for them.


----------



## SpineyNorman (May 27, 2012)

chilango said:


> My guess, and it's just a guess, is that they're real.
> 
> There's always been a few in ( or around ) the anarchist scene attracted to such "actions". Most grow out if it before getting around to actually doing much. In the past the likes of the AR fringes and the ELF have provided an outlet for them.


 
See for example: DrRingDing


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 27, 2012)

Citizen66 said:


> I'm on my second cup of tea.


 
Just goes to show what a fine drink tea is, that does!


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 27, 2012)

chilango said:


> My guess, and it's just a guess, is that they're real.
> 
> There's always been a few in ( or around ) the anarchist scene attracted to such "actions". Most grow out if it before getting around to actually doing much. In the past the likes of the AR fringes and the ELF have provided an outlet for them.


 
I'm not even opposed to "actions" as such, I'm merely of the opinion that you should choose your target(s) well. It's basic strategy if you're a "_guerrilla_" operation, that you don't alienate those within whose community you reside.


----------



## chilango (May 27, 2012)

I would also guess, and again just a guess based on previous experience, is that these guys aren't really part of the community, but live largely in a counter- cultural ghetto.


----------



## two sheds (May 27, 2012)

Much more productive would be something like a concerted attempt to empty Cameron's bank accounts into a homeless charity's to remind him that we're all in it together.


----------



## frogwoman (May 27, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Someone really should sever frogwoman's internet connection.


 
 

Oi, I'm nothing to do with that G**ldf*rd lot


----------



## frogwoman (May 27, 2012)

> _Beneath an angry sky, we crept through the streets, watched over only by a bloody moon as we danced with an unfettered joy in our livid hearts._
> _We were like nightmares to the sleeping bourgeoisie who lay like complacent swine in their soft beds._
> _We strode on and on down the high street, slightly damaging things and painting over local bus timetables as public transport acts as yet another conduit for the circulation of people as commodities._




In fucking Guildford. 

Twats.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 27, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> Oi, I'm nothing to do with that G**ldf*rd lot


 
TBF, your writing *is* generally better than that _dreck_, isn't it?


----------



## frogwoman (May 27, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> TBF, your writing *is* generally better than that _dreck_, isn't it?


 
wycombe till i die


----------



## SpineyNorman (May 27, 2012)

This is my favourite bit:



> painting over local bus timetables as public transport acts as yet another conduit for the circulation of people as commodities


 
That's c&p'd straight from the PD blog isn't it?


----------



## Nigel Irritable (May 27, 2012)

chilango said:


> Or you could have hours (well, minutes) of fun with this....
> 
> http://www.objectivechance.com/automatic_insurrection


 
That's one of the best automatic-whatever-generators I've seen. It perfectly captures the mix of pretension, confusion and rank stupidity you get in real insurrectionist material. I suppose it must be easier when the stuff you  are parodying is so incoherent to start with.


----------



## cantsin (May 27, 2012)

dylanredefined said:


> Yes it was. Unfortunately they were always second rate terrorists.IRA blow up canary wharf, Animal rights type engage in petty vandalism.


 
it could be be argued that if it wasn't for that 'petty vandalism' (which often came with stupidly disproportionate custodials for the perps ) ,  beagles would still be smoking 100 fags a day / monkeys having shampoo rubbed in their eyes etc, ie : the cosmetics / tobacco / drug companies in this country would still be totally unregulated re: testing .


----------



## dylanredefined (May 27, 2012)

cantsin said:


> it could be be argued that if it wasn't for that 'petty vandalism' (which often came with stupidly disproportionate custodials for the perps ) , beagles would still be smoking 100 fags a day / monkeys having shampoo rubbed in their eyes etc, ie : the cosmetics / tobacco / drug companies in this country would still be totally unregulated re: testing .


       I think it was more consumers being woken to the fact of what was being done in their name.Rather than any so called terror campaign.


----------



## Random (May 27, 2012)

DaveCinzano said:


> Really?


Not in the UK. They're clearly copying a southern European style, though


----------



## Random (May 27, 2012)

Citizen66 said:


> I just can't get my head around how a genuine anarchist group would do an action that put working class people at risk of harm.


Plenty of leftist groups, like the Weather Underground, did things that put working class people at risk. I agree that anarchists should reject the idea that "the ends justify the means" but unfortunately there's a certain similarity between Leninist leftism and _individualist_ anarchism when it comes to seeing the general population as "sheeple" who need to be worken up.


----------



## Gingerman (May 27, 2012)

Mrs Magpie said:


> I think their action has hit the buffers now.


Could be the end of the line for them


----------



## Athos (May 27, 2012)

Gingerman said:
			
		

> Could be the end of the line for them



Or maybe they'll go underground - a sleeper cell.


----------



## DaveCinzano (May 27, 2012)

Random said:


> Not in the UK. They're clearly copying a southern European style, though


 
I was questioning your statement "I don't think anyone's heard of the groups before".


----------



## Random (May 27, 2012)

Youngsters like this usually run out of steam after reaching a certain station in life.


----------



## Random (May 27, 2012)

DaveCinzano said:


> I was questioning your statement "I don't think anyone's heard of the groups before".


I could be wrong, like I said, it's what I think. Have you heard of an "informal anarchist federation" group in the UK before this?

edit: the "groupS" was a typo, just meant to say group


----------



## bignose1 (May 27, 2012)

DaveCinzano said:


> Are you suggesting that a sleeper cell went off the rails?


One track mind


----------



## DaveCinzano (May 27, 2012)

Random said:


> Have you heard of an "informal anarchist federation" group in the UK before this?


 
In the circumstances, and given what will inevitably be happening in Bristol and probably elsewhere in coming days, weeks and months (cf butchersapron's posts), that's not really the sort of question anyone would want to answer with any great candour, is it?


----------



## Random (May 27, 2012)

DaveCinzano said:


> In the circumstances, and given what will inevitably be happening in Bristol and probably elsewhere in coming days, weeks and months (cf butchersapron's posts), that's not really the sort of question anyone would want to answer with any great candour, is it?


Then it's a bit bloody stupid of you to start hinting that you've heard of them, then, isn't it? I thought you were pulling me up since it was actually general knowledge. I've got no idea what's going on in Bristol and elsewhere, but I think I'm right in saying that an openly insurrectionalist direct action anarchist group is a new development.


----------



## DaveCinzano (May 27, 2012)

Random said:


> Then it's a bit bloody stupid of you to start hinting that you've heard of them, then, isn't it? I thought you were pulling me up since it was actually general knowledge. I've got no idea what's going on in Bristol and elsewhere, but I think I'm right in saying that an openly insurrectionalist direct action anarchist group is a new development.


 
I was suggesting that now - right now, in the immediate aftermath of what is likely to be an enduring shitstorm - might not be the best time to be looking for, asking for, or expecting to get, full and frank answers to the same sorts of questions that the chaps following quickstep after the Enforcers are looking to find. I certainly wasn't pretending to any inside knowledge.


----------



## Random (May 27, 2012)

I think you're just chasing your own tail up the wrong tree now, so I'll leave it.


----------



## chilango (May 27, 2012)

I don't think it is. Really.

What _might_ be new, are the precise individuals involved in this particular group, and their choice of referencing the FiA or whatever as opposed to the ALF/ELF/New Angry Brigades blah blah blah.

The FIA label, seems to be just that. A flag of convenience that anyone can wave to lend their actions added gravitas thru' association.

Isolated "affinity groups" (bleurgh) pulling off stupid acts of vandalism and acting like they're Baader-Meinhof ain't new. At all.


----------



## chilango (May 27, 2012)

I wouldn't worry yourselves too much about the cops chasing around after answers.

I'd be surprised if they couldn't figure out to within a relatively small number of people who _might_ have done this. It's just gonna be a bit shit for those that might have, but didn't.

Of course, as mentioned above that doesn't mean it won't be used as an excuse to lean on anarchos who would obviously have no truck with this kind of thing, but _plus ca change_, eh?


----------



## Random (May 27, 2012)

I stand corrected if there's been people aping the AB before - although they weren't insurrectionsists. But I'd say that ALF/ELF stuff comes from a quasi-anarchist scene, rather than having anarchism as its main purpose.


----------



## JHE (May 27, 2012)

chilango said:


> The FIA label, seems to be just that. A flag of convenience that anyone can wave to lend their actions added gravitas thru' association.


 
*FAI*, I think - and I expect the name was chosen at least partly in order to have the same initials as the rather different, much more famous and once-great Iberian Anarchist Federation.


----------



## butchersapron (May 27, 2012)

The FAI is still existent. And is hated by individualist anarchists. So - wrong.


----------



## chilango (May 27, 2012)

JHE said:


> *FAI*, I think - and I expect the name was chosen at least partly in order to have the same initials as the rather different, much more famous and once-great Iberian Anarchist Federation.



Nah.

Picked originally by the Italian originators of this fad to piss off the official Italian Anarchist Federation.


----------



## chilango (May 27, 2012)

Random said:


> I stand corrected if there's been people aping the AB before - although they weren't insurrectionsists. But I'd say that ALF/ELF stuff comes from a quasi-anarchist scene, rather than having anarchism as its main purpose.



I think quasi-anarchist would be a fair way of describing this lot too.


----------



## Random (May 27, 2012)

chilango said:


> I think quasi-anarchist would be a fair way of describing this lot too.


I'm a bit of a wooly liberal  on this, and tend to think people are more solidly anarchist if they call themselves an anarchist federation


----------



## butchersapron (May 27, 2012)

chilango said:


> I think quasi-anarchist would be a fair way of describing this lot too.


Selff-lovers, look at what a great hero i am evolian aristocracy anti-w/c stuff. They hate the w/c.


----------



## chilango (May 27, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> Selff-lovers, look at what a great hero i am evolian aristocracy anti-w/c stuff. They hate the w/c.



Yup, if/when they think in terms of class. Which I suspect is pretty rarely.


----------



## butchersapron (May 27, 2012)

The herd is their preferred term.


----------



## Random (May 27, 2012)

I'm relieved that the more I hear about this kind of group, the more they naturally separate themselves from social class-struggle anarchism.


----------



## chilango (May 27, 2012)

Are they still reading the likes of Bonano and that Wolfi bloke or have things moved on?

(asking cos I really can't be arsed trawling through the dross of communiqués out there to find out their current gurus)


----------



## Random (May 27, 2012)

His name is Bananaman!


----------



## chilango (May 27, 2012)

Heh.

You read him?


----------



## butchersapron (May 27, 2012)

I done 4 hard years with the cunt. Knew no songs at all.


----------



## Random (May 27, 2012)

chilango said:


> Heh.
> 
> You read him?


Yes, but I'm not into voluntarism. Still have a vague sympathy for his point that anarchist groups shouldn't become political "organisations of synthesis" that try to interpret the whole world and give a definitive answer on it. Or he might have said something totally different. it was a long time ago.


----------



## chilango (May 27, 2012)

Aye.

Haven't read his stuff for years, but remember being very underwhelmed by it.


----------



## Random (May 27, 2012)

Probably only really makes sense if you know all about the internal debates of Italian anarchism in the second half of the 20th Century. Sad to see that even a mass anarchist movement can have the mad problems associated with the US hardcore punk "anarchist" scene.


----------



## butchersapron (May 27, 2012)

His/their stuff is _against_ the mass stuff.


----------



## Random (May 27, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> His/their stuff is _against_ the mass stuff.


I know, but he's surely still come out of the general mass movement, and also still relating to it?


----------



## butchersapron (May 27, 2012)

Random said:


> I know, but he's surely still come out of the general mass movement, and also still relating to it?


There has been no connection since the 79 mass arrests.


----------



## cantsin (May 27, 2012)

dylanredefined said:


> I think it was more consumers being woken to the fact of what was being done in their name.Rather than any so called terror campaign.


 
who / what woke the consumers up then ?


----------



## gawkrodger (May 27, 2012)

I'm putting my money on it being 17 year old kidswho like anonymous


----------



## kenny g (May 27, 2012)

Have to agree about the Bristol comments though. Bless all the bristles for being all defensive but the place is a backwater.


----------



## butchersapron (May 27, 2012)

kenny g said:


> Have to agree about the Bristol comments though. Bless all the bristles for being all defensive but the place is a backwater.


LOLSPGBKET


----------



## Citizen66 (May 27, 2012)

kenny g said:


> Have to agree about the Bristol comments though. Bless all the bristles for being all defensive but the place is a backwater.



It's england's sixth most populous city, ahead of Manchester. Hardly a 'backwater'.


----------



## Citizen66 (May 27, 2012)

Or so wiki says.  other sites give a different view...


----------



## butchersapron (May 27, 2012)

Culturally it's 3rd


----------



## Citizen66 (May 27, 2012)

How do they guage culture?


----------



## butchersapron (May 27, 2012)

Citizen66 said:


> How do they guage culture?


By quality mate, quality.


----------



## Citizen66 (May 27, 2012)




----------



## kenny g (May 27, 2012)

Citizen66 said:


> It's england's sixth most populous city, ahead of Manchester. Hardly a 'backwater'.


Bollocks:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Manchester with a population of 2.6 million *Manchester*

*i*/ˈmæntʃɛstər/ is a city and metropolitan borough in Greater Manchester, England with an estimated population of 498,800 in 2010

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bristol  with an estimated population of 433,100 for the unitary authority in 2009,[3] and a surrounding Larger Urban Zone (LUZ) with an estimated 1,070,000 residents in 2007.[4] It is England's sixth and the United Kingdom's eighth most populous city,

so we can add a false sense of its own importance to the charge list as well? Compare like with like and Manchester is considerably larger than Bristol which is a minor city on the way to Cornwall/ Cardiff. Some notable figures have left Bristol- the only known industry was the slave trade and in recent years second or third tier financial services. Culturally they have a few not very good clubs catering to ex private school thicko's who attend  the third rate university and a few copy cat music sub genres.


----------



## butchersapron (May 27, 2012)

I'm SHOCKED kenny -join the spgb and take some drugs  - all the same.


----------



## Citizen66 (May 27, 2012)

I took it from this list:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_United_Kingdom_settlements_by_population

Which is alegedly from the 2001 census so a bit outdated.


----------



## two sheds (May 27, 2012)

DrRingDing said:


> I didn't mean you sheds.


 
nobody ever does


----------



## kenny g (May 27, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> I'm SHOCKED kenny -join the spgb and take some drugs - all the same.


 
No need to get personal.  But then I suppose that is how you like to try to be the alpha on here.


----------



## SpineyNorman (May 27, 2012)

Are all SPGBers stone bonkers or is it just the ones who post on urban?

Sheffield's got better culture than Bristol by the way. And we've got more trees per capita than any other city in Europe


----------



## butchersapron (May 27, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> Are all SPGBers stone bonkers or is it just the ones who post on urban?
> 
> Sheffield's got better culture than Bristol by the way. And we've got more trees per capita than any other city in Europe


We've got working class on bikes.


----------



## kenny g (May 27, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> Are all SPGBers stone bonkers or is it just the ones who post on urban?
> 
> Sheffield's got better culture than Bristol by the way. And we've got more trees per capita than any other city in Europe


 
Agree about Sheffield. Am not a member of SPGB - by the way. As a SPEWer, Spiney, you should watch out for those glass houses.


----------



## butchersapron (May 27, 2012)

kenny g said:


> Agree about Sheffield. Am not a member of SPGB - by the way. As a SPEWer, Spiney, you should watch out for those glass houses.


Why did you leave?


----------



## audiotech (May 27, 2012)

​


> 'Cos it won't get you anywhere​Fooling with your guns​The British Army is waiting out there​An' it weighs fifteen hundred tons​


The Clash - 'White Man in Hammersmith Palais'.​


----------



## butchersapron (May 27, 2012)

audiotech said:


> ​
> 
> The Clash - 'White man in Hammersmith Palais'.​


For once you make a great point;

How much does it weigh? And why is this kiddy stuff....


----------



## Blagsta (May 27, 2012)

kenny g said:


> Culturally they have a few not very good clubs catering to ex private school thicko's who attend the third rate university and a few copy cat music sub genres.


 
Mark Stewart
The Pop Group
Wild Bunch
Massive Attack
Tricky
Portishead
Roni Size
Smith & Mighty
Stanton Warriors


there's some culture right there


----------



## Geri (May 27, 2012)

Not to mention The Wurzels.


----------



## Citizen66 (May 27, 2012)

Was Goldie Bristol too or was he Brum?


----------



## kenny g (May 27, 2012)

Blagsta said:


> Mark Stewart
> The Pop Group
> Wild Bunch
> Massive Attack
> ...


 
If Massive Attack, Roni size, smith and mighty and tricky aren't copy cats then I am missing something. Never heard of the others.


----------



## kenny g (May 27, 2012)

Citizen66 said:


> Was Goldie Bristol too or was he Brum?


 
Goldie spent a lot of his youth in Wolverhampton. So I suppose Brum. Headed stateside with the Graffiti.


----------



## audiotech (May 27, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> For once you make a great point;..


 
I'm not that deluded to think I always make "great" ones.


----------



## Blagsta (May 27, 2012)

kenny g said:


> If Massive Attack, Roni size, smith and mighty and tricky aren't copy cats then I am missing something. Never heard of the others.


 
There we have it eh?


----------



## butchersapron (May 27, 2012)

i love 15 years ago and that. Forget Bristol today. Real living people.


----------



## Blagsta (May 27, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> i love 15 years ago and that. Forget Bristol today. Real living people.


 
tbf, I know fuck all about Bristol today


----------



## chilango (May 27, 2012)

Bristol's ace.

Love it or leave it (alone).


----------



## butchersapron (May 27, 2012)

Laughing at kenny tbh


----------



## Blagsta (May 27, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> Laughing at kenny tbh


 
ahhhh, OK, lol 

I still know fuck all about Bristol today tbf, although I do know a few people down that way, should visit one day really


----------



## SpineyNorman (May 27, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> We've got working class on bikes.


 
We've got blokes who keep whippets and pigeons, plus over 200 parks. And working class brass bands. Only middle class mentalists ride bikes round here though as it's fucking knackering.


----------



## SpineyNorman (May 27, 2012)

kenny g said:


> Agree about Sheffield. Am not a member of SPGB - by the way. As a SPEWer, Spiney, you should watch out for those glass houses.


 
I think I stand on firm ground in comparison to the squeebies.


----------



## kenny g (May 27, 2012)

Blagsta said:


> although I do know a few people down that way, should visit one day really


 
Pretty much defines a backwater. Keep meaning to visit but not enough reasons to do so. I can't imagine the Bristol point adjusters were out of towners aiming for max impact.


----------



## Blagsta (May 27, 2012)

kenny g said:


> Pretty much defines a backwater. Keep meaning to visit but not enough reasons to do so. I can't imagine the Bristol point adjusters were out of towners aiming for max impact.


 
christ, you're a tedious wee shite


----------



## chilango (May 27, 2012)

kenny g said:


> Pretty much defines a backwater. Keep meaning to visit but not enough reasons to do so. I can't imagine the Bristol point adjusters were out of towners aiming for max impact.



I keep saying that about Rome.

...and end up popping over to Bristol instead.


----------



## treelover (May 27, 2012)

Blagsta said:


> Mark Stewart
> The Pop Group
> Wild Bunch
> Massive Attack
> ...


 
Don't forget Samantha Cameron, who as a student did her 'phase' hanging around rough triphop scenes, etc..


----------



## treelover (May 27, 2012)

'Mark Stewart
The Pop Group'
Best album title ever, 'As The Veneer Of Democracy Begins To Fade' and now so topical and prescient..


----------



## binka (May 27, 2012)

wrt bristol i can see how the people who live there have an inflated sense of their own importance - it all started when they got a harvey nichols imo


----------



## Blagsta (May 27, 2012)

Going to see Mark Stewart play in Brum in a couple of weeks.


----------



## kenny g (May 27, 2012)

Blagsta said:


> christ, you're a tedious wee shite


 
No reason to bring religion into it.


----------



## butchersapron (May 27, 2012)

Blagsta said:


> Going to see Mark Stewart play in Brum in a couple of weeks.


shit now primal scream got hold of him, bit of a knob now - EVERYONE IS A MORON as i said to bjork and bono in NYC


----------



## kenny g (May 27, 2012)

treelover said:


> Don't forget Samantha Cameron, who as a student did her 'phase' hanging around rough triphop scenes, etc..


Plenty of wannabee Sam Cams.

The one notable park is called the Downs - a windswept dog shit land perched over mud banks.

Plenty of sub-prime office space where numerous no fees accident claim solicitors were based. A few closed down insurance offices. 

Hardly the pulse of the West.


----------



## butchersapron (May 27, 2012)

kenny g said:


> Plenty of wannabee Sam Cams.
> 
> The one notable park is called the Downs - a windswept dog shit land perched over mud banks.
> 
> ...


Have you really ever been to bristol


----------



## butchersapron (May 27, 2012)

Kenny, i always thought you were taking the piss, being stupid. You're not are you.

(take loads of drugs - it doesn't effect you)


----------



## chilango (May 27, 2012)

Probably best to let him think that really...


----------



## discokermit (May 27, 2012)

kenny g said:


> Goldie spent a lot of his youth in Wolverhampton. So I suppose Brum.


you suppose wrong. massively wrong. wolverhampton has not, is not and never will be "brum".


----------



## bluestreak (May 27, 2012)

well, i always support strikes even if the issue doesn't affect me so i'll stick my head above the parapet and say fair play to them, though i'm not really sure about their political analysis.  hit something jolly next time, give us all a laugh.


----------



## danny la rouge (May 27, 2012)

kenny g said:


> Never heard of the others.


That says a lot.  I wouldn't bother checking them out, you wouldn't like them.  Stick to your namesake.


----------



## SpineyNorman (May 27, 2012)

bluestreak said:


> well, i always support strikes even if the issue doesn't affect me so i'll stick my head above the parapet and say fair play to them, though i'm not really sure about their political analysis. hit something jolly next time, give us all a laugh.


 
Seems like a bit of a daft line to take to me - would you have supported the 2002 PDVSA strikes in Venezuela for example?

Especially daft as it's likely to have caused ordinary people a lot more hassle than it did... well... whoever the target was supposed to be. Given the shit politics of those involved it may well have been "normals" - after all we're probably all sheep as far as they're concerned.


----------



## Nice one (May 27, 2012)

cultcha:





subba:


----------



## chilango (May 28, 2012)




----------



## kenny g (May 28, 2012)

Anyway, back to the original point- it is pretty much universally accepted that Bristol is a backwater- although there was apparently a flurry of some performers around 15 years ago. 

After becoming the stomping ground for highly educated but pretty thick peeps  ala Sam Cam to shoot the pool in Montpellier and providing a river of jobs for said oxbridge / city job rejects in third rate financial / legal services the city was one of the first to be hit by the incoming recession.

No wonder the first riots of 2011 were in Stokes Croft as the people heroically stood against an incoming Tesco. Various Bristles became most concerned however as  outsiders from another part of town became involved in "their" protest.

But many were proud. They had kicked it off from Bristle. No longer was Bristle just a place off the road on the road to Wales. The first city before Scrumpy. Bristle was the spark. People came from Bristle to London and recounted how it was all kicking off, and people gave a big cheer. 

Roll forward to 2012 and sporadic point damage occurs on the train lines. Is this part of the same process? Are these revolutionaries dis-connected from the minor Bristol scene? Have they got images of their action spreading down the line?  Of an heroic alliance between metal thieves and revolutionaries?    One point at a time.


----------



## butchersapron (May 28, 2012)

I prefer stoat boy i think.


----------



## DrRingDing (May 28, 2012)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...s-to-wage-low-level-warfare-on-Olympics.html#


----------



## DrRingDing (May 28, 2012)

> (AGI) London - The Federazione Anarchica Informale (FAI) threats to the London Olympics are considered "credible" by Scotland Yard. The Italian group which claimed responsibility for the attack on Ansaldo Nucleare CEO Roberto Adinolfi, has said they are ready to carry out "guerilla" actions to upset the games which will open in July in the British capital. The Mail On Sunday made the report in an article in which they state that investigators suspect that the FAI has already been responsible for two acts of sabotage beyond the Channel. The FAI's threats against the Olympics are published on the anarchist site 325.nonstate and are considered credible by police. "In the United Kingdom of precision control and domestication," a statement from the anarchist group reads, "we are some of the 'non-patriots' who consider the 2012 Olympics, with their display of wealth, frankly offensive. We have no inhibitions about carrying out guerilla warfare to damage the national image and paralyze the economy in every possible way.
> Because, to put it in simple terms, we do not want rich tourist, we want civil war." . .




http://www.agi.it/english-version/w..._scotland_yard_fai_anarchist_threats_credible

Shite article.


----------



## butchersapron (May 28, 2012)




----------



## chilango (May 28, 2012)

spectacle against the spectacle.


----------



## butchersapron (May 28, 2012)

Fuck off, they're blowing up social relationships.


----------



## chilango (May 28, 2012)

butchersapron said:


>


----------



## DaveCinzano (May 28, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> Fuck off, they're blowing up social relationships.


 
Don't tell Laurie


----------



## SpineyNorman (May 28, 2012)

DrRingDing said:


> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...s-to-wage-low-level-warfare-on-Olympics.html#


 
Before I read that article I was convinced that they were just a bunch of apolitical twats rather than state provocateurs. Now I'm not so sure - if they didn't exist the state would have to invent them to justify the kind of policing we will see at the olympics. And if they're not provocateurs they're even bigger twats than I thought. I mean, what kind of cunt actually _wants_ a civil war? Difficult - maybe impossible - to avoid if you want revolution but it's hardly fucking desirable in its own right is it?


----------



## butchersapron (May 28, 2012)

I remember when the rubber dinghy rapids faction burnt down the sea cadets changing hut.


----------



## chilango (May 28, 2012)




----------



## SpineyNorman (May 28, 2012)

After their guerilla actions that successfully delayed some trains, their next action will be to blow up the internet for Brutha Fasil.


----------



## DaveCinzano (May 28, 2012)




----------



## Random (May 28, 2012)

http://presstv.com/detail/2012/05/27/243385/anarchists-olympics-warfare/


----------



## butchersapron (May 28, 2012)

Great, their self-heroisation is now validated by the state.


----------



## SpineyNorman (May 28, 2012)

Random said:


> http://presstv.com/detail/2012/05/27/243385/anarchists-olympics-warfare/


 
Some great comments on that article:




			
				Axis of evil said:
			
		

> Watch out - Mossad and CIA, will launch a nuclear attack on London and Iran will become the scapegoat, as a pre-text to invade their country.






			
				REALTALK said:
			
		

> Mossad will carry out a false flag attack in london no doubt about that.That is why i,m leaving this God forsaking country before the olympics start.






			
				Gohar said:
			
		

> This will be blamed on Muslims no doubt. You just watch.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (May 28, 2012)

kenny g said:


> If Massive Attack, Roni size, smith and mighty and tricky aren't copy cats then I am missing something. Never heard of the others.


 
You've never heard of the Pop Group or Mark Stewart!

Louis MacNeice


----------



## charlie mowbray (May 28, 2012)

Great! I'm a member of the Anarchist Federation ( nothing to do with these "informal" pricks) I live very near the Olympics, and I'm involved in the Counter Olympics Network. Suddenly the chances of a raid have been ratcheted right up. Thanks Informals- you dickheads!!


----------



## Pickman's model (May 28, 2012)

charlie mowbray said:


> Great! I'm a member of the Anarchist Federation ( nothing to do with these "informal" pricks) I live very near the Olympics, and I'm involved in the Counter Olympics Network. Suddenly the chances of a raid have been ratcheted right up. Thanks Informals- you dickheads!!


perhaps the anarchist federation could change its name to something which equally encapsulates its politics, maybe something along the lines of the anarchist communist federation.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 28, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> Before I read that article I was convinced that they were just a bunch of apolitical twats rather than state provocateurs. Now I'm not so sure - if they didn't exist the state would have to invent them to justify the kind of policing we will see at the olympics. And if they're not provocateurs they're even bigger twats than I thought. I mean, what kind of cunt actually _wants_ a civil war? Difficult - maybe impossible - to avoid if you want revolution but it's hardly fucking desirable in its own right is it?


what kind of cunt wants a civil war? a leninist cunt, that's who


----------



## DrRingDing (May 28, 2012)

charlie mowbray said:


> Great! I'm a member of the Anarchist Federation ( nothing to do with these "informal" pricks) I live very near the Olympics, and I'm involved in the Counter Olympics Network. Suddenly the chances of a raid have been ratcheted right up. Thanks Informals- you dickheads!!


 
Might be time for a spring clean for some me thinks.


----------



## butchersapron (May 28, 2012)

DrRingDing said:


> Might be time for a spring clean for some me thinks.


That's your political response to the potential consequences of this idiocy?  Really?


----------



## chilango (May 28, 2012)




----------



## charlie mowbray (May 28, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> perhaps the anarchist federation could change its name to something which equally encapsulates its politics, maybe something along the lines of the anarchist communist federation.


Thanks for the helpful comment.


----------



## kenny g (May 28, 2012)

Louis MacNeice said:


> You've never heard of the Pop Group or Mark Stewart!
> 
> Louis MacNeice


 
I suppose it must be like the judge who didn't  know who Gazza was but nope, haven't got a clue who they are. 





> Great! I'm a member of the Anarchist Federation ( nothing to do with these "informal" pricks) I live very near the Olympics, and I'm involved in the Counter Olympics Network. Suddenly the chances of a raid have been ratcheted right up. Thanks Informals- you dickheads!!




I think this was dealt with in their communique somewhere. Should the informal's  actions be restricted by the possible re-actions by the state on others?


----------



## butchersapron (May 28, 2012)

kenny g said:


> I suppose it must be like the judge who didn't know who Gazza was but nope, haven't got a clue who they are.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, they should.


----------



## DrRingDing (May 28, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> That's your political response to the potential consequences of this idiocy? Really?


 
That wasn't a 'political response'.


----------



## butchersapron (May 28, 2012)

No, it wasn't was it. Were your earlier responses 'political'?


----------



## DrRingDing (May 28, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> No, it wasn't was it. Were your earlier responses 'political'?


 
Calm down and enjoy the cricket.


----------



## butchersapron (May 28, 2012)

Yeah, all a joke - throw a pose dingding.


----------



## likesfish (May 28, 2012)

Mi5 threat list
Jihadis
Cira etc
 Nutters that probably more a police matter 
Palesentinians hezbollah ( anti israeli rather than anti west)
Chechenyans ( anti russia)

Police demonstrators
Farthers for justice
Edl and muslims
Hippys
Assorted foreign groups
  Basically the world is going to be watching so every cause is potentialy a problem and for every thousands of legit protestors you've got the social hand grenade


----------



## DaveCinzano (May 28, 2012)

likesfish said:


> the social hand grenade


 
Wrong thread.


----------



## DrRingDing (May 28, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> Yeah, all a joke - throw a pose dingding.


 
Don't kick the cat when you get in either.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 28, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> Are all SPGBers stone bonkers or is it just the ones who post on urban?
> 
> Sheffield's got better culture than Bristol by the way. And we've got more trees per capita than any other city in Europe


 
Wasn't that a by-product of a) plantationing for charcoal for fine steel-making, and b) remediating all those dead steel mills, though?


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 28, 2012)

DrRingDing said:


> Might be time for a spring clean for some me thinks.


 
You know, I'm sure I said all this a couple of days ago, little Sir Echo!!


----------



## butchersapron (May 28, 2012)

DrRingDing said:


> Don't kick the cat when you get in either.


I might not have a cat when i get in.


----------



## butchersapron (May 28, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> We've got blokes who keep whippets and pigeons, plus over 200 parks. And working class brass bands. Only middle class mentalists ride bikes round here though as it's fucking knackering.


We've got just as many hills as you.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (May 28, 2012)

Blagsta said:


> Mark Stewart
> The Pop Group
> Wild Bunch
> Massive Attack
> ...


 
And flippin' Bugs and Drugs/Skate Muties From the 5th Dimension 

or, from the 21st Century  :

Ekoplekz
Joker
Peverelist
Pinch
Guido
Gatekeeper
Dubkasm

to name but a few.


----------



## likesfish (May 28, 2012)

Social hand grenade the sort of person you cant take anywhere


----------



## SpineyNorman (May 28, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> what kind of cunt wants a civil war? a leninist cunt, that's who


 
That wasn't in any way predictable was it? Like the way you snipped out the part that would have made that comment look as daft as it actually is though.

And unless I'm mistaken those cunts were definitely anarchist cunts.


----------



## butchersapron (May 28, 2012)

Fozzie Bear said:


> And flippin' Bugs and Drugs/Skate Muties From the 5th Dimension
> 
> or, from the 21st Century  :
> 
> ...


And the seers.


----------



## SpineyNorman (May 28, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> We've got just as many hills as you.


 
They're southern softy hills though, not proper ones like what we've got


----------



## butchersapron (May 28, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> They're southern softy hills though, not proper ones like what we've got


If hardmen like cocker and hawley can freely cycle up them - yeah them fuckers right big. _Look at me ma, king of the mountains._


----------



## SpineyNorman (May 28, 2012)

lol


----------



## Pickman's model (May 28, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> That wasn't in any way predictable was it? Like the way you snipped out the part that would have made that comment look as daft as it actually is though.
> 
> And unless I'm mistaken those cunts were definitely anarchist cunts.


if you look at lenin's comments c.1917, then you'll see he wanted a civil war, and the practice of his ideological heirs has frequently been to seek the same social strife.


----------



## SpineyNorman (May 28, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> if you look at lenin's comments c.1917, then you'll see he wanted a civil war, and the practice of his ideological heirs has frequently been to seek the same social strife.


 
I accept the first part of that comment, though even then unlike these twats the civil war was seen as a means to an end, not an end in itself - which is perfectly in accordance with what I said about it being difficult, if not impossible, to avoid if you want a revolution. That isn't the case with these twats, who according to their own statements see destroying the social peace and bringing about civil war as an end in itself.

The second part is bollocks though. There isn't a single extant Leninst group in the UK, not even the SWP when they're in a pro-riot mood, who actually seek civil war.


----------



## butchersapron (May 28, 2012)

Cowards. I want civil war.

these unbeaten children are dead as soon the starter says go.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 28, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> I accept the first part of that comment, though even then unlike these twats the civil war was seen as a means to an end, not an end in itself - which is perfectly in accordance with what I said about it being difficult, if not impossible, to avoid if you want a revolution. That isn't the case with these twats, who according to their own statements see destroying the social peace and bringing about civil war as an end in itself.
> 
> The second part is bollocks though. There isn't a single extant Leninst group in the UK, not even the SWP when they're in a pro-riot mood, who actually seek civil war.


yes, you're right. your second part is bollocks, because i never said anything about the uk.


----------



## tim (May 28, 2012)

free spirit said:


> What are they doing paraphrasing George Osbourne's budget speeches?


 
It's  a tribute to their former Bullingdon club comrade!


----------



## chilango (May 28, 2012)

What might (and only might) be interesting is to see how the dynamics of this play out.

On the one hand you have elements of the state and the media who will want to hype the IAF "threat" up.

On the other side you have Internet jokers swiftly turning the IAF into farce with memes and hoax lame actions.

Somewhere in the middle you have the handful of kids who actually see themselves as being in the IAF trapped between the two dead-ends. Push it too hard, ramp things up too much and the full weight of anti-terrorist cops come crashing down on them. Don't push it hard enough, and they become a laughing stock. 

Either way they're screwed.


----------



## Streathamite (May 28, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> We've got blokes who keep whippets and pigeons, plus over 200 parks. And working class brass bands. Only middle class mentalists ride bikes round here though as it's fucking knackering.


 you forgot cloth caps, rugby league and P45s


----------



## chilango (May 28, 2012)

On this thread we want less P45s and more P38s.


----------



## Citizen66 (May 28, 2012)

Streathamite said:


> you forgot cloth caps, rugby league and P45s



Ha. I've done rugby league and P45s, cloth caps are bourgeois though, aren't they?


----------



## chilango (May 28, 2012)

Actual (I presume insurrectionist) graffiti  I saw the other day was "P38 not P2" oe something along those lines...


----------



## audiotech (May 28, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> I might not have a cat when i get in.


 
Might be plotting to kill yer.







These Italian Anarchist's are pussy's in comparison.


----------



## TopCat (May 29, 2012)

charlie mowbray said:


> Great! I'm a member of the Anarchist Federation ( nothing to do with these "informal" pricks) I live very near the Olympics, and I'm involved in the Counter Olympics Network. Suddenly the chances of a raid have been ratcheted right up. Thanks Informals- you dickheads!!


A blinder has been played.


----------



## TopCat (May 29, 2012)

"Finance, judicial, communications, military and transport infrastructure will continue to be targets of the new generation of urban low-intensity warfare."

As you do...


----------



## Pickman's model (May 29, 2012)

chilango said:


> On this thread we want less P45s and more P38s.


why would we want obselete second world war fighters?


----------



## chilango (May 29, 2012)

Obviously.

Though having one these would be waaaaaaaaaaaay cooler.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 29, 2012)

The problem with a semi-automatic like that is it ejects rounds spreading forensic all over the shop. A good old-fashioned revolver will do the business while not leaving evidence all over the place


----------



## chilango (May 29, 2012)

That's not important.

Being able to make cool slogans for communiques is important.


----------



## TopCat (May 29, 2012)

The communiques from the Angry brigade were also totally embarrassing (and helped get them caught). 
I think this will run and run. A big market exists for direct action instead of community politics. Then a few folk will get 16 years in nick and it will fizzle out. If you are known to be a west country anarchist and are up to no good, watch out!


----------



## chilango (May 29, 2012)

> A big market exists for direct action


 
Telling words that say all that needs to be said here really.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 29, 2012)

TopCat said:


> The communiques from the Angry brigade were also totally embarrassing (and helped get them caught).
> I think this will run and run. A big market exists for direct action instead of community politics. Then a few folk will get 16 years in nick and it will fizzle out. If you are known to be a west country anarchist and are up to no good, watch out!


anyone asking for zoider, some rags and a bottle of paraffin'll be nicked straight off


----------



## DaveCinzano (May 29, 2012)

TopCat said:


> If you are known to be a west country anarchist and are up to no good, watch out!


 
Purely for reasons of comparison, and entirely without prejudice (not in anyway connected to this FIA thing, not all anarchists etc etc), the EDO Decommissioners case (all acquitted I hasten to add) was used by police in Bristol and in Brighton as a way of exploring personal and political connections between large - very large - numbers of people.

Despite the non-violent and essentially spontaneous nature of the action, vast quantities of paperwork, books, posters, DVDs, CDs, flashdrives, computers, mobile phones, photographs, cameras, address books, calendars, personal correspondence etc were seized and examined by police. Extensive analysis of phone data was undertaken.

Whether or not any of this material was found to have any investigatory significance with relation to this specific action - in which those taking part took Ploughshares-style personal responsibility for their actions, made no attempt to evade arrest, and claimed a defence of preventing a bigger crime - is subject to debate. What is clear, however, is that the intelligence value, in terms of building up a detailed picture of who knows who, was not insignificant. The failure of the Crown to convict, despite (i) the defendants' acknowledgement that they did what they were charged with having done [caveats apply etc], and (ii) the extraordinary volume of incredibly personal information mined from the defendants and others, in no way diminishes the fact that _the state still has all this information_.

So to expand on TopCat's point, you don't have to be in the West Country, you don't have to be an anarchist, you don't have to be "up to no good", and you don't have to (unwittingly or otherwise) know who did the train thing, or agree with it, to be concerned. Whether as a purely cynical pretext, for genuine investigation reasons, or for intelligence gathering, lots of people will be looked at (and that's putting it mildly).


----------



## Pickman's model (May 29, 2012)

DaveCinzano said:


> Purely for reasons of comparison, and entirely without prejudice (not in anyway connected to this FIA thing, not all anarchists etc etc), the EDO Decommissioners case (all acquitted I hasten to add) was used by police in Bristol and in Brighton as a way of exploring personal and political connections between large - very large - numbers of people.
> 
> Despite the non-violent and essentially spontaneous nature of the action, vast quantities of paperwork, books, posters, DVDs, CDs, flashdrives, computers, mobile phones, photographs, cameras, address books, calendars, personal correspondence etc were seized and examined by police. Extensive analysis of phone data was undertaken.
> 
> ...


like bommi baumann said, illegality's something that can happen to anyone, like treading in dogshit


----------



## redsquirrel (May 29, 2012)

chilango said:


> View attachment 19618


 
 Excellent


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 29, 2012)

chilango said:


> On this thread we want less P45s and more P38s.


 






You are planning to fill their orifices with plastic padding, comrade?

Kinky!


----------



## barney_pig (May 29, 2012)

there's some informal anarchist shenanigans going on on Doctors today.




( its violent anarchists beating up cleaners)


----------



## Random (May 29, 2012)

barney_pig said:


> there's some informal anarchist shenanigans going on on Doctors today.


This is a TV programme?


----------



## barney_pig (May 29, 2012)

Random said:


> This is a TV programme?


bbc1 after the lunchtime news, 20 minutes of todays 'issue', solved in 18 minutes,forgotten tomorrow and never mentioned again.


----------



## 8ball (May 29, 2012)

barney_pig said:


> ( its violent anarchists beating up cleaners)


 
Fucking with them bourgeoise notions of hygiene.


----------



## SpineyNorman (May 30, 2012)

If AFED haven't already released a statement pointing out that this group has nothing to do with them it might be a good idea to do so - I've had to patiently explain to two different people today that the IAF or whatever they're called aren't the same group.


----------



## butchersapron (May 30, 2012)

This was put out last week-ish.

(I almost said 'we' put this out then)


----------



## DaveCinzano (May 31, 2012)

Further to the above comment, which referred to the EDO Decommissioners case, the judgement in the appeal brought by John Catt in relation to intelligence data held by the police on non-violent protesters AKA 'domestic extremists' was given yesterday.

It fell in favour of the police, ACPO and the NPOIU/NDEU.

As the Network for Police Monitoring points out:



> Interestingly, in highlighting the criminal nature of the group, reference was made to £300, 000 of damage that was inflicted on the factory by anti-EDO activists. Most of this damage was done in a single act at the height of an appalling bombing campaign by Israel on Gaza.


 
Here is the reference in the judges' ruling:



> THE FACTS
> 
> 9 Although Issues (I) and (II) require separate consideration and should not be conflated, it is as well to begin with an overall outline of the facts.
> 
> ...


 
_(Ironically enough, it is not a "fact" at all that the EDO Decommissioners caused £300,000-worth of damage. Indeed, in the lead up to trial EDO MBM and its managing director Paul Hills gave wildly different estimates of damage in circumstances that suggested limited possibilities, including possible pressure from the police to upsell the cost. The figure used in the trial - accepted by the prosecution, by the police and by Hill - was £180,000, though £200,000 has also been bandied about.)_

Anyway, as NetPol continues:



> What the Catt judgement failed to refer to, or take account of, was the fact that all of those involved in that action were acquitted and allowed to walk free by a Crown Court on the basis that they were acting to prevent war crimes.


 
Thus the judgement omits crucial context from its 'facts'.

Note also that the uncritical acceptance of "the Tudway statement". To return to the NetPol article - which helpfully brings several relevant themes altogether in one place:



> Adrian Tudway, the former head of the National Public Order Intelligence Unit NPOIU (now subsumed into the National Domestic Extremism Unit (NDEU)) gave a statement to the court. One of the key functions of the ‘fundamental tool’ of intelligence, he said, is to provide “the ability to identify relationships within protest groups.”


 
The NPOIU, remember, was the unit tasked with infiltrating various long-term police agents into activist groups, including van cops 'Mark Stone' AKA PC Mark Kennedy, and 'Marco/Mark Jacobs'.

Whilst Kennedy is the better known, thanks to his spy thriller exposure by activists and subsequent revelations about his numerous emotional and sexual relationships with those on whom he was spying, 'Jacobs' is perhaps more interesting.

'Jacobs' was primarily embedded within the Cardiff Anarchist Network. After his unmasking, CAN released a statement in which they talked about his activities, which shows that this was not just about keeping tabs on 'the usual suspects':



> ...Damaging the structure of CAN was undoubtedly a key objective. He changed the culture of the organisation, encouraging a lot of drinking, gossip and back-stabbing, and trivialised and ran down any attempt made by anyone in the group to achieve objectives. He clearly aimed to separate and isolate certain people from the group and from each other, and subtly exaggerated political and personal differences, telling lies to both ‘sides’ to create distrust and ill-feeling. In the four years he was in Cardiff a strong, cohesive and active group had all-but disintegrated. Marco left after anarchist meetings in the city stopped being held...


 
The SDS, NPOIU, NDET, NETCU and now NDEU serve but one function - disruption of political activism by any means; surveillance, infiltration, provocation, harassment, bribery, slander, violence, intimidation, fit-ups - all are weapons they have been documented to use, and will continue to use unless we protect ourselves better from their methods.


----------



## Divisive Cotton (Jun 2, 2012)

communique #54 has been released




> We burned a Clear Channel van (one of the main advertising companies) in Staple Hill by setting fire to the front grill and causing an engine fire, most likely writing-off the vehicle.
> 
> We also tore down a billboard on Netham Road, by sawing through the wooden supports and pulling it down with a rope. Over two weeks later it has still not been replaced.
> 
> ...


----------



## kenny g (Jun 2, 2012)

Divisive Cotton said:


> communique #54 has been released


 

Sometimes less can be more. I think it could have done with some decent editing prior to release. As it is it comes across a bit OTT and verbose.

It would be a good idea to consider how "default cultural standard" could be written in English.

Do adverts really_ remind_ us that women equal sex? Don't they _suggest_ or _tell_ us that?

Not too sure that adverts are mirrors. Distorted ones maybe.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 3, 2012)

Tell you what might be a useful exercise on a number of levels  - a quick comparison between the IWW's attempts to use/promote/normalise various forms of violence as a legitimate as part of class responses to capital and these idiots attempts to do the same (levels: success/what it says about motivations and attitudes to the working class/conditions/work (or non-work) and its role in politics/_politicos_ an their role in class struggle and so on

Who fancies it? Mr dingding?


----------



## newbie (Jun 3, 2012)

Divisive Cotton said:


> communique #54 has been released


I'm sorry, I'm very thick but for the life of me I can't tell whether that's real or a spoof


----------



## manny-p (Jun 3, 2012)

barney_pig said:


> there's some informal anarchist shenanigans going on on Doctors today.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b01jcrqk/Doctors_Series_14_Smash_the_System/

lol three days left to catch it. groundbreaking stuff! peace activist to the anarchists- "Non violent direct action you should try it some time" the anarchists reply "wimps" and storm past them to beat up some cleaners.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jun 3, 2012)

Divisive Cotton said:


> communique #54 has been released
> 
> 
> > _Christos Stratigopoulos is someone who refused to buy this tranquilising dream, and who chose instead to steal back some livelihood outside of wage slavery. He is imprisoned in Greece, having claimed political responsibility for robbing a bank in 2009. The state is trying to stop his return to the streets by now accusing him of a second robbery. We don’t forget you Christos – In social war no fighter stands alone._


this would be  if it wasn't so 

kind of summed up what I was getting your in the thread a few months back "anarchism as a method of action doesn't work".  Sure, many anarchists would not be so stupid, but it appears there is something innate in the philosophy that promotes this individualistic martyr complex .


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 3, 2012)

It appears that there just is something inate in the marxist philosophy that promotes this individualistic martyr complex.








Anyway, bye bye thread now rmp3 is here.


----------



## chilango (Jun 3, 2012)

Divisive Cotton said:


> communique #54 has been released



I am absolutely, fully, 100%, in favour of destroying billboards and other forms of imposed, public advertising.

But, you stick out a wanky communique claiming responsibility...you just negate the entire action. Replacing the spectacle you destroy with your own spectacle that you create.

Idiots.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 3, 2012)

chilango said:


> I am absolutely, fully, 100%, in favour of destroying billboards and other forms of imposed, public advertising.
> 
> But, you stick out a wanky communique claiming responsibility...you just negate the entire action. Replacing the spectacle you destroy with your own spectacle that you create.
> 
> Idiots.


Spot on.

Hey, we're _creating situations - _only thing is_, you're not invited, nor are you, or you, you're definitely not coming in dressed like that etc _

Total evacuation of the collective aspect of the_ creating of situations,_whilst simultaneously recuperating the _language_ of the situationists (minus the content). Advertising in its purest form.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jun 3, 2012)

chilango said:


> I am absolutely, fully, 100%, in favour of destroying billboards and other forms of imposed, public advertising.






> But, you stick out a wanky communique claiming responsibility...you just negate the entire action. Replacing the spectacle you destroy with your own spectacle that you create.
> 
> Idiots.


----------



## chilango (Jun 3, 2012)

ResistanceMP3 said:


>



It's pretty simple, no?


----------



## Divisive Cotton (Jun 3, 2012)

come on stop moaning . I'm glad somebody has revived the lost art of the revolutionary communique

They're not borrowing my copy of B.A.M.N. though for inspiration that stays on my bookshelf


----------



## rekil (Jun 3, 2012)

chilango said:


> Actual (I presume insurrectionist) graffiti I saw the other day was "P38 not P2" oe something along those lines...


It should be italian weapons rather than obsolete german ones anyway? Eg. Berettas Not Crankletters.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 3, 2012)

Red thread of revolutionary continuity is the key: _Let us do justice to Comrade P38_

(i did put that text on line a few years ago, but it seems to have disappeared)


----------



## rekil (Jun 3, 2012)

Irascible Waves Of Unreasonable Proletarian Justice.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 3, 2012)

copliker said:


> It should be italian weapons rather than obsolete german ones anyway? Eg. Berettas Not Crankletters.


 
Nah, can't do that anymore now that more Berettas are made in the US than Italy.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 3, 2012)

copliker said:


> Irascible Waves Of Unreasonable Proletarian Justice.


 
Is Proletarian Justice ever unreasonable, comrade? Comrade Beria certainly doesn't think so.


----------



## rekil (Jun 3, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Nah, can't do that anymore now that more Berettas are made in the US than Italy.


I see. 


ViolentPanda said:


> Is Proletarian Justice ever unreasonable, comrade? Comrade Beria certainly doesn't think so.


Twas a crap reference to a Shaw quote.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 3, 2012)

copliker said:


> I see.


 
Depressing, isn't it? Only the more "handmade" stuff gets done in Italy now.



> Twas a crap reference to a Shaw quote.


 
Why are you referencing Mark Shaw?


----------



## rekil (Jun 3, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> Red thread of revolutionary continuity is the key:_Let us do justice to Comrade P38_
> 
> (i did put that text on line a few years ago, but it seems to have disappeared)


Just as well. Finding amusing Beretta rhymes is not easy. Berettas Not Omelettas? Rubbish.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 3, 2012)

_If, in autonomous demonstrations, the "comrade P.38" is mentioned, it is certainly not because we are hiding P.38's under our coats; but we must observe that there is a symbolic aspect to this, the admission that today it is necessary and just to carry arms. What is obvious is that those who consider arming themselves in view of relatively close prospects do not envision equipping themselves with a 6.35 Bernadelli._

(I've found the whole thing along with the old site backup on an old pc now)


----------



## rekil (Jun 3, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Why are you referencing Mark Shaw?


Why not. He was Marshal Zhukov's pilot for a bit.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 3, 2012)

copliker said:


> Why not. He was Marshal Zhukov's pilot for a bit.


 
Ah, then respect is due the comrade for ferrying that purge fodder so-called "military genius"!


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jun 3, 2012)

chilango said:


> It's pretty simple, no?


no


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jun 3, 2012)

band wagon jumping self promotionists? The anti cuts campaign is not OWNED by the anarchists. This should have been anti-cuts flag.


----------



## rekil (Jun 3, 2012)

It *should* have been the proletarian democracy battle flag.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jun 3, 2012)

copliker said:


> It *should* have been the proletarian democracy battle flag.
> 
> View attachment 19805


You bandwagon jumping bastard!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 3, 2012)

copliker said:


> Just as well. Finding amusing Beretta rhymes is not easy. Berettas Not Omelettas? Rubbish.


 
Beretta not pancetta?


----------



## stuff_it (Jun 3, 2012)

Whole thing could just be the start of an anti-anarchist publicity campaign by the government as well i guess...not to sound too paranoid.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 3, 2012)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> You bandwagon jumping bastard!


 
Where have you been for the last 3 weeks, while the Proletarian Democracy movement has made great strides forward toward the creation of a workers' bomb?
Not gossiping with the _bourgeois_ intelligence services, one hopes, eh comrade?


----------



## rekil (Jun 3, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Beretta not pancetta?


Rejected that almost immediately. Cheese puns considered.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jun 3, 2012)

stuff_it said:


> Whole thing could just be the start of an anti-anarchist publicity campaign by the government as well i guess...not to sound too paranoid.


Nooooooooooo, no way too paranoid?





ViolentPanda said:


> Where have you been for the last 3 weeks, while the Proletarian Democracy movement has made great strides forward toward the creation of a workers' bomb?
> Not gossiping with the _bourgeois_ intelligence services, one hopes, eh comrade?


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jun 3, 2012)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> band wagon jumping self promotionists? The anti cuts campaign is not OWNED by the anarchists. This should have been anti-cuts flag.


 
Made my day that. Shame it wasn't flying from Buckingham Palace.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jun 3, 2012)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Made my day that. Shame it wasn't flying from Buckingham Palace.


ye me to to be honest. a little bit of a 2 finger to the bastards.

but that is not in the spirit of anarchism.  you have to criticise EVERYTHING. lol


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 3, 2012)

_De omnibus dubitandum_ - i believe your priest liked this motto.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jun 3, 2012)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> ye me to to be honest. a little bit of a 2 finger to the bastards.
> 
> but that is not in the spirit of anarchism. you have to criticise EVERYTHING. lol


 
Being pro-active & not sitting on your arse is true spirit 

Anyone can criticise._ <insert Brian Sewell angry face>_


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jun 3, 2012)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Being pro-active & not sitting on your arse is true spirit
> 
> Anyone can criticise._ <insert Brian Sewell angry face>_


God! Soft bastard.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jun 3, 2012)

Brian is not soft!


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jun 3, 2012)

NO! But you are.


----------



## DrRingDing (Jun 13, 2012)

Nuff anarchos pinched in Italy...

http://www.repubblica.it/cronaca/20...agli_anarchici_informali-37091007/?ref=HREA-1


----------



## two sheds (Jun 13, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> _De omnibus dubitandum_ - i believe your priest liked this motto.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jun 14, 2012)

Hmmmm

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-18436708

Hopefully entirely unrelated.


----------



## JHE (Jun 14, 2012)

Probably unrelated.  Daft Anarchs are far from the only silly arses who do things like that. There are daft kids who drop things from bridges onto trains or leave things on train tracks. They do this for entertainment, not to smash the state.


----------



## TopCat (Jun 14, 2012)

Is it always wrong to take direct action? Were the AB always wrong? Should we always condemn? What about the INLA or the RA? What about the Greek mob giving it very large at the moment?
For me the only thing I condemn is the fucking communiques. Actions should always be self explanatory. Who benefits, who loses.


----------



## TopCat (Jun 14, 2012)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-18448636 It gets very much worse. Stock up beans an antibiotics.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 14, 2012)

TopCat said:


> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-18448636 It gets very much worse. Stock up beans an antibiotics.


and rice and pasta and lime cordial and spirits. not to mention tinned tomatoes and curry paste.


----------



## Citizen66 (Jun 15, 2012)

TopCat said:
			
		

> Is it always wrong to take direct action? Were the AB always wrong? Should we always condemn? What about the INLA or the RA? What about the Greek mob giving it very large at the moment?
> For me the only thing I condemn is the fucking communiques. Actions should always be self explanatory. Who benefits, who loses.



Seems silly to have pro-working class politics only to then plot attacks that affects the working class, no? Or are train drivers bourgeois?


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 15, 2012)

They haven't got pro-working class politics.


----------



## Citizen66 (Jun 15, 2012)

butchersapron said:
			
		

> They haven't got pro-working class politics.



Ah right. Haven't read much beyond their shenanigans tbh. Was taking it as granted as they believe they are 'anarchists'.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 15, 2012)

Citizen66 said:


> Seems silly to have pro-working class politics only to then plot attacks that affects the working class, no? Or are train drivers bourgeois?


 
From their communique, their politics aren't at all clear, beyond an apparent commitment to armed insurrection, and a rather top-down approach to doing things.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 15, 2012)

Citizen66 said:


> Ah right. Haven't read much beyond their shenanigans tbh. Was taking it as granted as they believe they are 'anarchists'.


 
There are capitalist wankers who call themselves anarchists too.


----------



## Citizen66 (Jun 15, 2012)

Fair point.


----------



## frogwoman (Jun 16, 2012)

I crawled under a turnstile at Milton Keynes bus station yesterday in order to go to the toilet and avoid paying. Take that, capitalism.


----------



## AverageJoe (Jun 16, 2012)

I paid 30p to use the loos at Charing Cross last week and was most disappointed to discover that it was a stubborn fart and not the poo i had been hoping for.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 16, 2012)

AverageJoe said:


> I paid 30p to use the loos at Charing Cross last week and was most disappointed to discover that it was a stubborn fart and not the poo i had been hoping for.


There are free toilets in the pubs near charing x station and in trafalgar square


----------



## AverageJoe (Jun 16, 2012)

Couldnt wait that long. I was convinced it was a poo. Sadly my body deceived me


----------



## rekil (Aug 10, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> Red thread of revolutionary continuity is the key: _Let us do justice to Comrade P38_
> 
> (i did put that text on line a few years ago, but it seems to have disappeared)


It must have its origins in Mayakovsky's Left March, which was 1918ish I think. _'Silence, you speakers! Comrade Mauser, you have the floor.'_ Unless he nicked it from even earlier.

(Good one for the Foundry Of Fighting Back pub quiz this)


----------



## DrRingDing (Aug 10, 2012)

I dunno what's crapper their communiques or this thread.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 10, 2012)

Their communiques. And your justifications.


----------



## DrRingDing (Aug 10, 2012)

"They haven't got pro-working class politics"

Is one of your poorer comments.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 10, 2012)

DrRingDing said:


> "They haven't got pro-working class politics"
> 
> Is one of your poorer comments.


Would you like to tell me why? I can tell you exactly why they haven't. They view w/c people as sheeple, they view the necessity to earn as a moral failing - and they have come to this view through their own privilige (and the same shared juvenile idiocy to look radical to their parents as you). Now you. Tell me how they have pro-w/c politics. tell me how making it almost impossible to do anything without getting raided in this city or under fulltime observation a thing that you welcome.


----------



## DrRingDing (Aug 10, 2012)

What 'privilige' would that be?


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 10, 2012)

DrRingDing said:


> What 'privilige' would that be?


Coming from posh backgrounds and having plenty money squirreled away as result. Now, your turn:


**fill this space with your answers**


----------



## DrRingDing (Aug 10, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> Coming from posh backgrounds and having plenty money squirreled away as result. Now, your turn:
> 
> 
> **fill this space with your answers**


 
Oh really. That's a massive assumption. You know what assuming does, dontcha dear butchers?


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 10, 2012)

So you can't answer at all then. You can't make a single political point in defence of your own post. Thanks for this opp to extend the laughter. Unless, unless  you can answer? Unless you can fill the space below with something political? Can you?


----------



## DrRingDing (Aug 10, 2012)

Apart from you making wild projections to suit your prejudices.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 10, 2012)

That's a no you can't then. Thanks dingding.


----------



## DrRingDing (Aug 10, 2012)

Just calm yourself down frillyapron.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Aug 10, 2012)

DrRingDing said:


> "They haven't got pro-working class politics"
> 
> Is one of your poorer comments.


 
Why?


----------



## DrRingDing (Aug 10, 2012)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Why?


 
Cos ba doesn't like their tactics or their gabble and thus dismisses them as middle class twerps.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Aug 10, 2012)

DrRingDing said:


> Cos ba doesn't like their tactics or their gabble and thus dismisses them as middle class twerps.


 
Why do you consider their politics to be pro-working class, I mean?


----------



## DrRingDing (Aug 10, 2012)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Why do you consider their politics to be pro-working class, I mean?


 
Because they are blatantly class conscious in their efforts. Some of the arguments on this thread have been pretty crap. Especially regarding this particular action. Oh noes people can't get to work.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 10, 2012)

DrRingDing said:


> Because they are blatantly class conscious in their efforts. Some of the arguments on this thread have been pretty crap. Especially regarding this particular action. Oh noes people can't get to work.


Can you explain how they're 'class conscious' in their efforts, and how their actions contribute to working class self-organisation?

Their wider argument is that people in the situation of having to work are sell-outs, are moral failures and so justified targets. Do you agree? If so, can you tell me what is 'pro-working class' about this position?


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Aug 10, 2012)

There's more to being pro-working class than saying "bosses = bad" in an anonymous communique.

I don't believe that many people think these sorts of clandestine acts of sabotage are inspiring - quite the reverse. So where does that leave you? Either the action is wrong, or the people are...


----------



## DrRingDing (Aug 10, 2012)

Regardless of what I personally feel they are, in their heads at least, engaging in class warfare.

Attacking businesses
Attacking the police
Attacking the means to spread propaganda
...and numerous other actions.

What they're trying to propagate are more affinity groups to muck in with these _simple repeatable actions. _It's a tactic, I hope they don't see it as a strategy.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 10, 2012)

DrRingDing said:


> Regardless of what I personally feel they are, in their heads at least, engaging in class warfare.
> 
> Attacking businesses
> Attacking the police
> ...


I'm asking you why you personally fell what they're doing is pro-working class, why it helps pro-working class politics and what it says about what pro-working class politics are.  Can you say why? You must be able to if these are so crucial tactics. So, let's read it.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 10, 2012)

DrRingDing said:


> What they're trying to propagate are more affinity groups to muck in with these _simple repeatable actions. _It's a tactic, I hope they don't see it as a strategy.


Look at the masses flocking to, not laughing at or calling pricks - these groups.


----------



## DrRingDing (Aug 10, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> I'm asking you why you personally fell what they're doing is pro-working class, why it helps pro-working class politics and what it says about what pro-working class politics are. Can you say why? You must be able to if these are so crucial tactics. So, let's read it.


 
When you've calmed down, I shall elaborate. I'm not bearing my personal views for you slap with your enraged member. Soz babes.


----------



## DrRingDing (Aug 10, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> Look at the masses flocking to, not laughing at or calling pricks - these groups.


 
I'm not saying I necessarily agree with them. You're making another assumption. Stop flailing around.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 10, 2012)

DrRingDing said:


> When you've calmed down, I shall elaborate. I'm not bearing my personal views for you slap with your enraged member. Soz babes.


I'm quite calm. You won't elaborate as you have no views beyond a surface attempt to look radical. As you admit by saying that you will elaborate but that you refuse to say anything. I'm after some politics from you here - give it a go.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 10, 2012)

DrRingDing said:


> I'm not saying I necessarily agree with them. You're making another assumption. Stop flailing around.


That's exactly what you've said. Stop trying to backtrack. What led you to your original error?


----------



## DrRingDing (Aug 10, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> That's exactly what you've said. Stop trying to backtrack. What led you to your original error?


 
I will defend their actions when everyone else is having a hissy fit. That doesn't mean I agree with them.


----------



## Random (Aug 10, 2012)

DrRingDing said:


> I will defend their actions when everyone else is having a hissy fit. That doesn't mean I agree with them.


Ah, I've just realised you're American. That's why you think this qualifies as class struggle; the bar is already set real low.


----------



## DrRingDing (Aug 10, 2012)

Random said:


> Ah, I've just realised you're American. That's why you think this qualifies as class struggle; the bar is already set real low.


 
When you've finished with your xenophobia why not pop back to your middle class activist group away from the real world.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 10, 2012)

DrRingDing said:


> I will defend their actions when everyone else is having a hissy fit. That doesn't mean I agree with them.


You defended them full stop. You attacked those who criticised them. When put on the spot you have just bottled it. This is the steel needed is it?


----------



## Random (Aug 10, 2012)

DrRingDing said:


> When you've finished with your xenophobia why not pop back to your middle class activist group away from the real world.


I was right!


----------



## Random (Aug 10, 2012)

Anyway, I'm not anti-American, just anti American anarchist culture.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 10, 2012)

Random said:


> Anyway, I'm not anti-American, just anti American anarchist culture.


He's not american, he's a daft yokel, entirely separated from any wider social movement, hence this...alienated bullshit.


----------



## Random (Aug 10, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> He's not american, he's a daft yokel, entirely separated from any wider social movement, hence this...alienated bullshit.


I'm against a certain kind of American anarchist culture, that's becoming more common over here, with youths adopting the debased American anarchist patois.


----------



## DrRingDing (Aug 10, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> You defended them full stop. You attacked those who criticised them. When put on the spot you have just bottled it. This is the steel needed is it?


 
Believe me I have fucking criticisms. It isn't just Bristol this has been going on.


----------



## DrRingDing (Aug 10, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> He's not american, he's a daft yokel


 
Says Somerset boy


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 10, 2012)

DrRingDing said:


> Believe me I have fucking criticisms. It isn't just Bristol this has been going on.


I don't believe that you have, i believe that you have been made to say that you have after you realised what a mug you've made of yourself. I've been asking you to offer something for the last few hours. Go on. Topcat could and without weaseling - why can't you?


----------



## DrRingDing (Aug 10, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> I don't believe that you have


 
Well those beliefs are wrong.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 10, 2012)

No they ain't, You defended these actions here and criticised those who have rejected them, Say why you did that. And say what your new-found (as in the last 5 minutes) problems with them are.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Aug 10, 2012)

DrRingDing said:


> Believe me I have fucking criticisms. It isn't just Bristol this has been going on.


 
Secret criticisms?


----------



## DrRingDing (Aug 10, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> No they ain't, You defended these actions here and criticised those who have rejected them, Say why.


 
I'll defend their actions against questionable nae sayers.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 10, 2012)

DrRingDing said:


> I'll defend their actions against questionable nae sayers.


That is meaningless for starters. Let me get this right, you'll defend them against anyone who criticises them but you have your own criticisms (which are secret). So everyone else is just a by-stander in this little revolt. You petty little leninist.


----------



## discokermit (Aug 10, 2012)

that's not fair to lenin and you know it.


----------



## DrRingDing (Aug 10, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> That is meaningless for starters. Let me get this right, you'll defend them against anyone who criticises them but you have your own criticisms (which are secret).


 
Where did I say I'd defend them against 'anyone' who criticises them?


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 10, 2012)

DrRingDing said:


> Where did I say I'd defend them against 'anyone' who criticises them?


Above. You defended them against people who it effects, you defended them against all local anarchists, you defended them full stop - i think this tells us all we need to know about who you consider to be 'questionable nae-sayers'. And now you're bottling it. And all without ever actually bothering to offer anything political to back up a single one of your various poses.


----------



## Random (Aug 10, 2012)

DrRingDing said:


> I'll defend their actions against questionable nae sayers.


You can criticise them as you're doing so for the right reasons. Other people are doing so for the wrong reasons. I've been there too. probably a fair chunk of my posting history on U75 I did this kind of thing.


----------



## DrRingDing (Aug 10, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> Above. You defended them against people who it effects, you defended them against all local anarchists, you defended them full stop - i think this tells us all we need to know about who you consider to be 'questionable nae-sayers'. And now you're bottling it. And all without ever actually bothering to offer anything political to back up a single one of your various poses.


 
This has not just affected those in Bristol.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 10, 2012)

DrRingDing said:


> This has not just affected those in Bristol.


I didn't say that it had - though i think that is true - which only adds weight to my criticisms of the actions and the attitude behind it and slaughters your defence of the same. Now stop whining and say something.


----------



## Random (Aug 10, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> I didn't say that it had - though i think that is true - which only adds weight to my criticisms of the actions and the attitude behind it and slaughters your defence of the same. Now stop whining and say something.


Objectively you're on the side of entropy. So no washing of the dirty linen in your presence.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 10, 2012)

Random said:


> Objectively you're on the side of entropy. So no washing of the dirty linen in your presence.


There is no washing. It's bullshit.


----------



## Random (Aug 10, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> There is no washing. It's bullshit.


TBH I've stopped caring


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 10, 2012)

Random said:


> TBH I've stopped caring


That's what spray on deodorant is for. _When you just don't give a shit but you want to go out ._


----------



## Random (Aug 10, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> That's what spray on deodorant is for. _When you just don't give a shit but you want to go out ._


When you just don't give a shit, but don't want to work, in my case.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 10, 2012)

Or when you don't give a shit but want to look hardcore in dingdongs case.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 10, 2012)

DrRingDing said:


> Regardless of what I personally feel they are, in their heads at least, engaging in class warfare.
> 
> Attacking businesses
> Attacking the police
> ...


a problem is that the state has a simple, repeatable tactic which they use for people who do this sort of thing, it's called prison and anyone up for this sort of thing's looking at something like 10 years at a guess. they may be brave - i don't know - but they're clearly rather daft. the sort of people from whom they seek support or at least neutrality are generally the very people they deride as sell-outs.


----------



## DrRingDing (Aug 10, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> a problem is that the state has a simple, repeatable tactic which they use for people who do this sort of thing, it's called prison and anyone up for this sort of thing's looking at something like 10 years at a guess. they may be brave - i don't know - but they're clearly rather daft.


 
I agree.


----------



## DrRingDing (Aug 10, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> the sort of people from whom they seek support or at least neutrality are generally the very people they deride as sell-outs.


 
That depends on who you think they're trying to appeal to.


----------



## DrRingDing (Aug 10, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> I didn't say that it had - though i think that is true - which only adds weight to my criticisms of the actions and the attitude behind it and slaughters your defence of the same. Now stop whining and say something.


 
You're a bit old and haggard to be thinking the world revolves around you.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 10, 2012)

DrRingDing said:


> That depends on who you think they're trying to appeal to.


it also comes down to what butchers was saying about pro-working class politics. do their politics tend to unite or divide their 'target audience'? i'd say that they would tend to unite people, but not the way the activists would like. simply put, not enough people would currently see the need for this tactic. things haven't got to the point where something like the angry brigade would advance matters, rather it would retard it.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 10, 2012)

DrRingDing said:


> You're a bit old and haggard to be thinking the world revolves around you.


You're a bit daft to be posting deflection stuff like this. Write something justifying your contradictory positions, say something political dingdong. Or bottle it.


----------



## DrRingDing (Aug 10, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> it also comes down to what butchers was saying about pro-working class politics. do their politics tend to unite or divide their 'target audience'? i'd say that they would tend to unite people, but not the way the activists would like. simply put, not enough people would currently see the need for this tactic. things haven't got to the point where something like the angry brigade would advance matters, rather it would retard it.


 
Again I agree.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 10, 2012)

DrRingDing said:


> Again I agree.


You might to have a word with yourself after reading the drivel that you've posted on this thread and the argument that you started again today - and then ask yourself why you bottled it so embarrassingly.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 10, 2012)

DrRingDing said:


> Again I agree.


so i'm not entirely sure how you find something admirable or progressive in the actions under discussion.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 10, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> so i'm not entirely sure how you find something admirable or progressive in the actions under discussion.


I fear that you may be a 'questionable nay-sayer' and so do not have the right to know what the secret cliques that involve 'more than bristol' owe to anyone at all - or similar load of deflection from dingding.


----------



## DrRingDing (Aug 10, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> You're a bit daft to be posting deflection stuff like this. Write something justifying your contradictory positions, say something political dingdong. Or bottle it.


 
I'm not going to condemn some people who are risking a lengthy stint in gaol just as they're actions don't fit snuggly with my view 100%.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 10, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> I fear that you may be a 'questionable nay-sayer' and so do not have the right to know what the secret cliques that involve 'more than bristol' owe to anyone at all.


am i? how did that happen?


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 10, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> am i? how did that happen?


I think by pointing out that dingdong posted up a load of drivel with no political argument behind it.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 10, 2012)

DrRingDing said:


> I'm not going to condemn some comrades who are risking a lengthy stint in gaol just as they're actions don't fit snuggly with my view 100%.


if it was 70, 80 or indeed 90% then you might have a point. but at the moment they are not advancing matters, you have agreed they are retarding them. as such, their actions don't seem to fit into the views you've expressed at all.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 10, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> I think by pointing out that dingdong posted up a load of drivel with no political argument behind it.


----------



## DrRingDing (Aug 10, 2012)

Guess what frillyapron it ain't all about you. Go out and have a fucking pint.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 10, 2012)

DrRingDing said:


> I'm not going to condemn some people who are risking a lengthy stint in gaol just as they're actions don't fit snuggly with my view 100%.


You say that you support it. You say that you criticise it. You have done neither in reality. I have pointed out how this affects people that you claim to be comrades of - you say that you still support it as a pro-working class action. You can't say why. You say, the the anti-working class nature of them is pointed out, that you criticise them. You can't say why.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 10, 2012)

DrRingDing said:


> Guess what frillyapron it ain't all about you. Go out and have a fucking pint.


It's far far more about me than you you irresponsible prick.


----------



## DrRingDing (Aug 10, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> if it was 70, 80 or indeed 90% then you might have a point. but at the moment they are not advancing matters, you have agreed they are retarding them. as such, their actions don't seem to fit into the views you've expressed at all.


 
I think if they chose their targets better. Dropped the flowery, romantic, continental communiques and spoke succinctly with humour and spirit they wouldn't be so derided.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 10, 2012)

DrRingDing said:


> I think if they chose their targets better. Dropped the flowery, romantic, continental communiques and spoke succinctly with humour and spirit they wouldn't be so derided.


from what i've read they show scant sign of listening to criticism, no matter how constructive.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 10, 2012)

DrRingDing said:


> I think if they chose their targets better. Dropped the flowery, romantic, continental communiques and spoke succinctly with humour and spirit they wouldn't be so derided.


So, if it was something else entirely it would be great. Meanwhile it's shit and you support it's counter-productivity and call anyone else who suggests otherwise questionable (or have secret criticisms). You utter tit.


----------



## DrRingDing (Aug 10, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> So, if it was something else entirely it would be great. Meanwhile it's shit and you support it's counter-productivity and call anyone else who suggests otherwise questionable (or have secret criticisms). You utter tit.


 
If you really had such a weighty point you wouldn't need to stoop to twisting semantics.

I didn't say anyone who suggests the actions are counter productive are questionable.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 10, 2012)

DrRingDing said:


> If you really had such weighty point you need to stoop to twisting semantics.
> 
> I didn't say anyone who suggests the actions are counter productive are questionable.


Yes you did - you set the barrier at people like me - a local anarchist directly having shit as result - as 'questionable nay-sayers' who you would blindly defend the action and the people involved against. From the fens. Thanks for the solidarity.


----------



## DrRingDing (Aug 10, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> Yes you did - you set the barrier at people like me - a local anarchist directly having shit as result - as 'questionable.


 
No I didn't go and re-read the post. 

Right, I'm heading to the pub to enjoy this summers evening.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 10, 2012)

DrRingDing said:


> No I didn't go and re-read the post.
> 
> Right, I'm heading to the pub to enjoy this summers evening.


I did, i always do that before quoting stuff back at idiots. From your first position of unconditional defence you bottled it into 'having criticisms' but not ones you would put before "questionable nae sayers." - identifying that group - from your fen holdout - as people like me, local anarchists directly impacted.

You can't even leg it properly.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 10, 2012)

discokermit said:


> that's not fair to lenin and you know it.


leninists it is!


----------



## DrRingDing (Aug 11, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> leninists it is!


 
You're the one behaving like a fucking Leninist. This is the way it is and anything else is sacrilege. As it's always been with you.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 11, 2012)

DrRingDing said:
			
		

> You're the one behaving like a fucking Leninist. This is the way it is and anything else is sacrilege. As it's always been with you.


Defend your daft posts. It should be easy.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 11, 2012)

DrRingDing said:


> Cos ba doesn't like their tactics or their gabble and thus dismisses them as middle class twerps.


 
So you're dismissing the possibility that he may actually know one or more of them as being "middle class twerps", and that informs his opinion of their tactics and proclamations (besides the fact that their tactics *are* crap, and their gabble *is* risible, obviously)?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 11, 2012)

DrRingDing said:


> Because they are blatantly class conscious in their efforts.


 
I disagree. Their *rhetoric* may well have a veneer of class-consciousness, but their (at least this UK "chapter's") actions do not appear to have factored in anything resembling class-consciousness. At least the Angries tried to take actions that didn't have deleterious effects on members of the w/c.



> Some of the arguments on this thread have been pretty crap. Especially regarding this particular action. Oh noes people can't get to work.


 
If you don't understand why not being able to get to work can be so signally important to a member of the w/c, then no amount of attempting to point out that for some, missing half a day or a day's work is the equivalent of losing the ability to fully pay a bill, or having to skimp on food for a fortnight, is going to make you any more informed.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 11, 2012)

Fozzie Bear said:


> There's more to being pro-working class than saying "bosses = bad" in an anonymous communique.


 
Quite! Grass has roots. They should acquaint themselves with that fact, unless they're just posturing idiots in search of thrills and headlines.



> I don't believe that many people think these sorts of clandestine acts of sabotage are inspiring - quite the reverse. So where does that leave you? Either the action is wrong, or the people are...


 
I don't see sabotage as inherently a bad thing, and in fact some acts of sabtage are downright inspiring, but this very obviously wasn't an action into which much consideration of consequence went on. Yes, they "stopped the machine" by throwing a clog in the works, but who was most inconvenienced, the local working classes or "the man"? I'd strongly suggest it was the former, and that the latter shrugged this off easily.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 11, 2012)

DrRingDing said:


> Regardless of what I personally feel they are, in their heads at least, engaging in class warfare.
> 
> Attacking businesses
> Attacking the police
> ...


 
Quite right, it's *a* tactic, but in the case of these people at Bristol, it's a poorly-targeted tactic, unless their primary interest is in "the spectacle".


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 11, 2012)

Random said:


> Anyway, I'm not anti-American, just anti American anarchist culture.


 
Me, I'm not "anti American anarchist culture" so much as against those elements of it that seek to reduce everything to "if you all do this, you can be free!", when "this" is stuff like primitivism, "more-anarchist-than-thou" oneupmanship or (worse!) libertarianism dressing its hate of state (except where it benefits the libertarian!) up in cod-anarchism.


----------



## Random (Aug 11, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Me, I'm not "anti American anarchist culture" so much as against those elements of it that seek to reduce everything to "if you all do this, you can be free!", when "this" is stuff like primitivism, "more-anarchist-than-thou" oneupmanship or (worse!) libertarianism dressing its hate of state (except where it benefits the libertarian!) up in cod-anarchism.


I was just taking the piss, really, and pretending to be David Starkey


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 11, 2012)

Random said:


> I was just taking the piss, really, and pretending to be David Starkey


 
Well you weren't nearly pompous and prickly enough!


----------



## TremulousTetra (Aug 11, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Quite right, it's *a* tactic, but in the case of these people at Bristol, it's a poorly-targeted tactic, unless their primary interest is in "the spectacle".


good point!  Well made.


----------



## gawkrodger (Jan 4, 2013)

hmmmm

http://bristol.indymedia.org.uk/article/712344


----------



## 8ball (Jan 4, 2013)

gawkrodger said:


> hmmmm
> 
> http://bristol.indymedia.org.uk/article/712344


 
It's a bit 'Twelve Monkeys'.


----------



## Belushi (Jan 4, 2013)

Twats.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 4, 2013)

facepalms all round.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 4, 2013)

gawkrodger said:


> hmmmm
> 
> http://bristol.indymedia.org.uk/article/712344


 
More "spectacular" action aimed at publicising a cause. I'd be more impressed if they'd lived up to their convictions enough to *actually* liberate an animal, rather than just painting the word on zoo property.


----------



## Captain Hurrah (Jan 4, 2013)

Bunch of pricks.


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 4, 2013)

'Liberate' the animals, that will go down well in Bristol.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 4, 2013)

The39thStep said:


> 'Liberate' the animals, that will go down well in Bristol.


 
Hey, just a gecko would be fine, didn't have to be a primate or a predator, just something that indicated that they weren't just posing.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jan 4, 2013)

<hangs head in despair at the whole shambolic fiasco>


----------



## Hocus Eye. (Jan 4, 2013)

I had a three hour delay on a train leaving Paddington for the Westcountry just before Christmas. This was a three hour delay on a journey that should last less than hours in total. This was not caused by the floods. That only happened two days later. It was announced as signalling failure. The following day it was revealed that it was in fact caused by a fire in a lineside signalling installation. At the same time there was a similar fire on a line out of Brighton. Both lines caused cancellations of trains heading for the two London airports.

If anyone has any information about the real causes of these fires that leads to a conviction I will offer a reward of a Mars bar.


----------



## sunnysidedown (Jan 4, 2013)

I remember sometime back in the mid 80's the Animal Rights section of the Ashington League of Anarchists liberated all the terrapins from the local pet shop, it was turtle mayhem.


----------



## chilango (Jan 4, 2013)

The39thStep said:


> 'Liberate' the animals, that will go down well in Bristol.



Bears and shit on the downs. That'd be ace. 

I'm nota "fan" of zoos, but I'm a member of Bristol Zoo. It's a cool little place to take the family.

Incidentally I noticed the Bristol Reptile Emporium had boarded up windows...was that same bunch?

Years ago I remember some in EF! arguing against gardens. Heh.


----------



## chilango (Jan 4, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> More "spectacular" action aimed at publicising a cause. I'd be more impressed if they'd lived up to their convictions enough to *actually* liberate an animal, rather than just painting the word on zoo property.



All that said, if they could borrow a van and go over to Noah's Ark farm zoo, I'd be a LOT more sympathetic. Creationists keeping rhinos on a farm = legitimate targets in my book.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 4, 2013)

chilango said:


> All that said, if they could borrow a van and go over to Noah's Ark farm zoo, I'd be a LOT more sympathetic. Creationists keeping rhinos on a farm = legitimate targets in my book.


 
The "keeping rhinos on a farm" bit was unnecessary. "Creationists = legitimate targets" is enough for me.


----------



## Riklet (Jan 4, 2013)

god how embarrassing this lot are.

_monkeys for the workers' cage!!_


----------



## spring-peeper (Jan 4, 2013)

chilango said:


> All that said, if they could borrow a van and go over to Noah's Ark farm zoo, I'd be a LOT more sympathetic. Creationists keeping rhinos on a farm = legitimate targets in my book.




Why would anyone want to keep rhinos???


----------



## dylanredefined (Jan 4, 2013)

spring-peeper said:


> Why would anyone want to keep rhinos???


 
  Obviously couldn't afford a hippo. And wanted something big and stupid and aggressive.


----------



## spring-peeper (Jan 4, 2013)

dylanredefined said:


> Obviously couldn't afford a hippo. And wanted something big and stupid and aggressive.



So the Rhino is protection from the anarchists???


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 4, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Hey, just a gecko would be fine, didn't have to be a primate or a predator, just something that indicated that they weren't just posing.


 
A flea?


----------



## chilango (Jan 4, 2013)

spring-peeper said:


> Why would anyone want to keep rhinos???



Cos it proves Darwin was wrong and that you should vote Tory or something.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 4, 2013)

The39thStep said:


> A flea?


 
TBF they probably already had an abundance of them on their persons.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 4, 2013)

http://indymedia.org.uk/en/2013/01/505205.html

New Horizons of Burning Rage


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jan 4, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> http://indymedia.org.uk/en/2013/01/505205.html
> 
> New Horizons of Burning Rage


When I saw that story originally on Jack FM I did wonder whether such a purple would be coming forth


----------



## Riklet (Jan 4, 2013)

listned to radio bristol recently for the first time in a while n quite enjoyed it! reactionary sheep that I am...

these people are such mugs and a danger in general..


----------



## purenarcotic (Jan 4, 2013)

> The entertainment industry is an important tool to manipulate human behaviour. Without a steady supply of distractions it would be much harder to persuade people that their lives are satisfactory, to convince them to keep going to work or in whatever way to reproduce the system. So to deprive the network of the ability to offer this essential means of escape from chronic modern stress, anxiety, frustration and dissatisfaction is to undermine the smooth running of society, however temporarily.


 
Has it not occurred to them that some people can enjoy Downton Abbey and understand that their lives aren't satisfactory?

Patronising or what.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Jan 4, 2013)

> We are on the side of everyone who has burnt stuffy textbooks and taken the offensive to reanimate an anarchy that had turned to dust in so many throats.


 
We are also on the side of anyone who doesn't do their geography homework regardless of threats of detention, or who refuses to eat their greens despite their mum's insistence.


----------



## equationgirl (Jan 4, 2013)

I have no problem with acts of sabotage against 'the man', but to bring down police communications and possibly other emergency services is just idiotic and guaranteed to make the unpopular rather than garner support for their cause, whatever that is.

They sound about 15.

I wish they would free the creationist rhinos though


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 4, 2013)

purenarcotic said:


> Has it not occurred to them that some people can enjoy Downton Abbey and understand that their lives aren't satisfactory?
> 
> Patronising or what.


 
Init, I fucking hate that attitude. And you usually get it from people who are themselves mindless followers of some bullshit orthodoxy someone else thought up, straight edgers and surplus cunts of that nature.

Television is capable of being high art as well as mindless dreck, and all sorts of stuff in between. These days screen writing interests me a lot more than prose fiction tbh. People dismissing telly as insignificant fluff created solely to numb the brains of the masses would do well to remember that plenty of people said the same thing about novels when they first started appearing.


----------



## Geri (Jan 4, 2013)

When I was involved in animal rights we used to leaflet at the zoo regularly - it was a lot worse in those days though. We went last year and it has changed a lot although I still didn't like seeing the animals in cages.


----------



## equationgirl (Jan 4, 2013)

Geri said:


> When I was involved in animal rights we used to leaflet at the zoo regularly - it was a lot worse in those days though. We went last year and it has changed a lot although I still didn't like seeing the animals in cages.


But did you ever smash it up in the hopes the owners would see the errors of their ways and free the lions?


----------



## equationgirl (Jan 4, 2013)

One wonders if these 'anarchists' are just arsonists in disguise?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 4, 2013)

Geri said:


> When I was involved in animal rights we used to leaflet at the zoo regularly -


 
I bet you were gutted when all those monkeys just ate the flyers you gave them.


----------



## 1%er (Jan 4, 2013)

Talking of doggie communiques the one linked to below appears to have been written by the neil kinnock of the anarchist federation, fuck me! 500 words to say "it isn't us"



butchersapron said:


> This was put out last week-ish.
> 
> (I almost said 'we' put this out then)


----------



## Geri (Jan 4, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> But did you ever smash it up in the hopes the owners would see the errors of their ways and free the lions?


 
No, but when I went with butchers in the summer, and saw a notice on the lion's cage saying that they have a high perch so they can look out over the Downs, I did say it was a pity they couldn't be let out for a bit of a runabout.


----------



## equationgirl (Jan 4, 2013)

Geri said:


> No, but when I went with butchers in the summer, and saw a notice on the lion's cage saying that they have a high perch so they can look out over the Downs, I did say it was a pity they couldn't be let out for a bit of a runabout.


Surely that's just going to make the lions mad because they're being taunted with the acres of free space they can't have.


----------



## chilango (Jan 4, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> Surely that's just going to make the lions mad because they're being taunted with the acres of free space they can't have.



Aren't we all?


----------



## equationgirl (Jan 4, 2013)

chilango said:


> Aren't we all?


True. Kelvingrove park just taunts me with it wide open green spaces, the deserted railway station less so


----------



## Geri (Jan 4, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> Surely that's just going to make the lions mad because they're being taunted with the acres of free space they can't have.


 
That's what I thought - taking the piss!


----------



## equationgirl (Jan 4, 2013)

Geri said:


> That's what I thought - taking the piss!


I'd be tempted to free them just for that.


----------



## fractionMan (Jan 4, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> http://indymedia.org.uk/en/2013/01/505205.html
> 
> New Horizons of Burning Rage


 
Are these people for real?  ffs


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Jan 4, 2013)

FAILF?


----------



## barney_pig (Jan 4, 2013)

purenarcotic said:


> Has it not occurred to them that some people can enjoy Downton Abbey and understand that their lives aren't satisfactory?
> 
> Patronising or what.


I wonder if the writers are also responsible for the front page of today's independent,

Voters 'brainwashed by Tory welfare myths', shows new poll


----------



## Mr Moose (Jan 6, 2013)

purenarcotic said:


> Has it not occurred to them that some people can enjoy Downton Abbey and understand that their lives aren't satisfactory?
> 
> Patronising or what.



V true, but I tell you what if 'Countdown' and 'Pointless' go down some serious shit is gonna hit the fan.


----------



## barney_pig (Jan 6, 2013)

The chase is better


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 6, 2013)

Revolutionaries used to understand that you were part of world produced by culture (hence being seen, being accountable) . These people just see enemies. Eng lit grads.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Jan 6, 2013)

train drivers as the sargeant Troy to the sabateurs' Gabrial Oak while Laura Penny plays Bathsheba?


----------



## 1%er (Jan 6, 2013)

Happy new year comrade.


butchersapron said:


> Revolutionaries used to understand that you were part of world produced by culture (hence being seen, being accountable) . These people just see enemies. Eng lit grads.


Kids of today


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 6, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Revolutionaries used to understand that you were part of world produced by culture (hence being seen, being accountable) . These people just see enemies. Eng lit grads.


 
Annoying when you consider that it's not as if the youthful journalist-cum activist _manque_ crowd don't understand that they're part of a world _productive of_ culture, because that's obviously part of what they're doing - attempting or pretending to produce culture and/or cultural change. Perhaps it just that they're not willing to be responsible for what they give birth to (it's not like we haven't seen generations of people involved in activism who've bricked it)?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 6, 2013)

1%er said:


> Happy new year comrade.
> Kids of today


 
Bloody Emo haircuts and army surplus satchels!


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jan 6, 2013)

I for one welcome our nascent puppet theatre mime artist street performer overlords.

Death to the tyranny of tellybox! Let the sheep graze on lead! For a pure and freegan brave new world!


----------



## 1%er (Jan 6, 2013)

Happy new year comrade Panda


ViolentPanda said:


> Bloody Emo haircuts and army surplus satchels!


Sounds like 21st century Leonard Cohen


----------



## Nylock (Jan 7, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> I have no problem with acts of sabotage against 'the man', but to bring down police communications and possibly other emergency services is just idiotic and guaranteed to make the unpopular rather than garner support for their cause, whatever that is.
> 
> They sound about 15.
> 
> I wish they would free the creationist rhinos though


The Girder ought to publish an article pointing out the error of their recent tactics and recommend more worthwhile objectives under the banner heading "FREE THE CREATIONIST RHINOS!" 

We need a communique from cmbbe mainwaring extolling the ideological purity of the rhino!


----------



## stuff_it (Jan 7, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> One wonders if these 'anarchists' are just arsonists in disguise?


One certainly does wonder if they are genuine.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 7, 2013)

It's like watching a split personality in action. Many of the people on these boards take a dim view of capitalism, right-of-centre politics, Big Pharma, Big Industry, food additives, globalization, govt cutbacks, etc etc etc. ie, The System. Most people see a lot of fundamental flaws in how we're forced to live, and on the many inequities of our societies.

Then we get this thread, where the same people spend 480 posts scoffing at these direct action people, laughing at their names, etc.

I'll agree that messing with train switches, possibly putting lives in danger, is foolish. But, the System isn't going to fix itself. I'd say most of the armchair quarterbacks are the people constantly bitching here about how bad things are.


Actually, that's not totally fair. Some of our posters attend a march or two per year, followed by a few rounds down the pub.


----------



## purenarcotic (Jan 7, 2013)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> It's like watching a split personality in action. Many of the people on these boards take a dim view of capitalism, right-of-centre politics, Big Pharma, Big Industry, food additives, globalization, govt cutbacks, etc etc etc. ie, The System. Most people see a lot of fundamental flaws in how we're forced to live, and on the many inequities of our societies.
> 
> Then we get this thread, where the same people spend 480 posts scoffing at these direct action people, laughing at their names, etc.
> 
> I'll agree that messing with train switches, possibly putting lives in danger, is foolish. But, the System isn't going to fix itself. I'd say most of the armchair quarterbacks are the people constantly bitching here about how bad things are.


 
Does being against the current state of the system mean we have to automatically support every direct action?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 7, 2013)

purenarcotic said:


> Does being against the current state of the system mean we have to automatically support every direct action?


 
No. Like I said, messing with train switches is foolish.

But if you believe that the System won't be corrected from within, then you probably have to accept that dangerous, desperate action would be required against such a colossal and well-entrenched foe.


----------



## purenarcotic (Jan 7, 2013)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> No. Like I said, messing with train switches is foolish.
> 
> But if you believe that the System won't be corrected from within, then you probably have to accept that dangerous, desperate action would be required against such a colossal and well-entrenched foe.


 
But nobody has really denied your second point.  People have said that they feel this specific direct action was crap, not that every direct action is rubbish.


----------



## stuff_it (Jan 7, 2013)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> It's like watching a split personality in action. Many of the people on these boards take a dim view of capitalism, right-of-centre politics, Big Pharma, Big Industry, food additives, globalization, govt cutbacks, etc etc etc. ie, The System. Most people see a lot of fundamental flaws in how we're forced to live, and on the many inequities of our societies.
> 
> Then we get this thread, where the same people spend 480 posts scoffing at these direct action people, laughing at their names, etc.
> 
> ...


You what? You haven't got a scooby mate.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 7, 2013)

stuff_it said:


> You what? You haven't got a scooby mate.


 
Given that this is the internet, you might want to resist the impulse to brag.


----------



## stuff_it (Jan 7, 2013)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> Given that this is the internet, you might want to resist the impulse to brag.


Nobody said anything about bragging.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 7, 2013)

stuff_it said:


> Nobody said anything about bragging.


 
You're saying you're better informed about what's going on; given what we're talking about, that could include knowledge of criminal activity.


----------



## stuff_it (Jan 7, 2013)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> You're saying you're better informed about what's going on; given what we're talking about, that could include knowledge of criminal activity.


You're just being paranoid. I don't know anyone daft enough to disrupt train signals. 

I said I know that posters do more than go to the pub after a march and post online, not that they burned down sodding zoos.

IS the US paranoia spreading North?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 7, 2013)

stuff_it said:


> You're just being paranoid.


 
No; you said I 'don't have a scooby'. Which implies that you do; otherwise, you wouldn't be able to recognize my ignorance.


----------



## stuff_it (Jan 7, 2013)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> No; you said I 'don't have a scooby'. Which implies that you do; otherwise, you wouldn't be able to recognize my ignorance.


At which poit you jumped to conclusions that I was implicating myself and other posters in criminal activity.

There's a massive difference between 'doing more than turn up to one or two marches a year' and criminal damage. 

Have you been drinking?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 7, 2013)

stuff_it said:


> At which poit you jumped to conclusions that I was implicating myself and other posters in criminal activity.
> 
> There's a massive difference between 'doing more than turn up to one or two marches a year' and criminal damage.
> 
> Have you been drinking?


 
Well, there's legal protest marches, and then there are other things. You're saying you have knowledge of these 'other things'. Or are you backtracking now?

No, no alcohol tonight.


----------



## RaverDrew (Jan 7, 2013)

stuff_it said:


> I said I know that posters do more than go to the pub after a march and post online, not that they burned down sodding zoos.



Tbf I still have a few hours unaccounted for on New Years Day


----------



## stuff_it (Jan 7, 2013)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> Well, there's legal protest marches, and then there are other things. You're saying you have knowledge of these 'other things'. Or are you backtracking now?
> 
> No, no alcohol tonight.


And of course there is a huge range of activities inbetween.


----------



## danny la rouge (Jan 7, 2013)

stuff_it said:


> At which poit you jumped to conclusions that I was implicating myself and other posters in criminal activity.


Come on now, you know very well that there's only two choices - a) attending 2 marches per year, or b) burning down Vodaphone masts.  That's it.  You said you did more than a), so you must have done b).


----------



## stuff_it (Jan 7, 2013)

RaverDrew said:


> Tbf I still have a few hours unaccounted for on New Years Day


I have film of what you were up to, you're safe.


----------



## Voley (Jan 7, 2013)

The bragging about terrorist activities by stuff_it on this thread is atrocious. No-one's impressed that you did 9/11 you know.


----------



## stuff_it (Jan 7, 2013)

NVP said:


> The bragging about terrorist activities by stuff_it on this thread is atrocious. No-one's impressed that you did 9/11 you know.


TBH I _do_ have a video of Drew deploying his sonic weapon, but I promised not to post up the video of him snoring like a trooper.


----------



## kittyP (Jan 7, 2013)

Johnny Canuck3 said:
			
		

> No; you said I 'don't have a scooby'. Which implies that you do; otherwise, you wouldn't be able to recognize my ignorance.



I think she meant you didn't know what you were talking about. In terms of judging other posters intentions. Not that she knew all the ins and outs of direct action groups. 
She hopefully will correct me if I am wrong.


----------



## stuff_it (Jan 7, 2013)

kittyP said:


> I think she meant you didn't know what you were talking about. In terms of judging other posters intentions. Not that she knew all the ins and outs of direct action groups.
> She hopefully will correct me if I am wrong.


I'm Spartacus, and so is my dog.


----------



## kittyP (Jan 7, 2013)

stuff_it said:
			
		

> I'm Spartacus, and so is my dog.



I want a dog


----------



## stuff_it (Jan 7, 2013)

kittyP said:


> I want a dog


 
Faces have been concealed to protect the guilty.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 7, 2013)




----------



## kittyP (Jan 7, 2013)

stuff_it said:
			
		

> Faces have been concealed to protect the guilty.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 7, 2013)

kittyP said:


> I think she meant you didn't know what you were talking about. In terms of judging other posters intentions. Not that she knew all the ins and outs of direct action groups.
> She hopefully will correct me if I am wrong.


She might sadly correct you.


----------



## danny la rouge (Jan 7, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> She might sadly correct you.


"Wistfully" would be good.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 7, 2013)

danny la rouge said:


> "Wistfully" would be good.


'violently' ftw 

or savagely


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 7, 2013)

1%er said:


> Happy new year comrade Panda


 
And to you, comrade!



> Sounds like 21st century Leonard Cohen


 
If they sounded like Leonard Cohen, I wouldn't mind so much!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 7, 2013)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> It's like watching a split personality in action. Many of the people on these boards take a dim view of capitalism, right-of-centre politics, Big Pharma, Big Industry, food additives, globalization, govt cutbacks, etc etc etc. ie, The System. Most people see a lot of fundamental flaws in how we're forced to live, and on the many inequities of our societies.
> 
> Then we get this thread, where the same people spend 480 posts scoffing at these direct action people, laughing at their names, etc.


 
And why? Because they do this in our names, whether or not we support their particular strategy or not. I'm not a pacifist, but I've never taken action on the (frankly patronising) basis that "I'm doing it for everyone", I've only ever taken direct action in my own name, or with (as was the case when we had neo-Nazis causing trouble in the late '70s/early '80s) community consent. These fuckers? The only consent they have is their own.



> I'll agree that messing with train switches, possibly putting lives in danger, is foolish. But, the System isn't going to fix itself. I'd say most of the armchair quarterbacks are the people constantly bitching here about how bad things are.
> 
> 
> Actually, that's not totally fair. Some of our posters attend a march or two per year, followed by a few rounds down the pub.


 
I love the assumption that because we post on here, we can't be doing more than going on marches or to the pub.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 7, 2013)

because smashing the windows of a zoo in the name of FREEDOM! is fucking moronic


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 7, 2013)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> No. Like I said, messing with train switches is foolish.
> 
> But if you believe that the System won't be corrected from within, then you probably have to accept that dangerous, desperate action would be required against such a colossal and well-entrenched foe.


 
And if you have *any* sense whatsoever, you strategise *accordingly*.
What you don't do is undertake actions that endanger the people you're claiming to protect/fight for.

Unfortunately, for every strategist, there are a dozen people who see themselves as wearing the "romantic" mantle of the Victorian-era bomb-thrower. The sort of person who justifies any "collateral damage" as a price worth paying in order to make their point.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 7, 2013)

knocking over a few tele masts is not going to ake up the masses and se them throw aside their chains. Its just going to annoy people a lot. Like its the fucking tele that enslaves anyway.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 7, 2013)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> No; you said I 'don't have a scooby'. Which implies that you do; otherwise, you wouldn't be able to recognize my ignorance.


 
It's hardly a great fucking leap from your level of cluelessness to "having a scooby". A kitten would have more of a scooby than you! Does that put the kitten in danger?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 7, 2013)

RaverDrew said:


> Tbf I still have a few hours unaccounted for on New Years Day


 
Do alcohol-induced comas count as unaccounted-for time now?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 7, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> because smashing the windows of a zoo in the name of FREEDOM! is fucking moronic


not necessarily


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 7, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> because smashing the windows of a zoo in the name of FREEDOM! is fucking moronic


 
Like I said, I'd have been impressed if they'd freed even a single animal, but this was just another bit of posturing, of putting on a spectacle.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 7, 2013)

Harry Haller said:


> I bet there's not a dozen people who see themselves as wearing any such mantle in the entire country.


 
I'm not interested in what you bet, "Harry". I've heard it all before.

Over and over and over again.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 7, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> knocking over a few tele masts is not going to ake up the masses and se them throw aside their chains. Its just going to annoy people a lot. Like its the fucking tele that enslaves anyway.


 
Easier to address/attack the appurtenances of "the man" than to attack "the man" himself, though. Less risk of being dealt with by the spooks.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 7, 2013)

Harry Haller said:


> Says the man who writes about a thousand posts a day saying more or less exactly the same thing. Every day of every year.


 

I've lost count of how many fake wigs you've worn, so to cry obsessive  is a bit log/own eye


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 7, 2013)

Harry Haller said:


> Says the man who writes about a thousand posts a day saying more or less exactly the same thing. Every day of every year.


and you'd know having been a member for less than 72 hours.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 7, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Easier to address/attack the appurtenances of "the man" than to attack "the man" himself, though. Less risk of being dealt with by the spooks.


 
Petit-bourgeois individualism.


----------



## stuff_it (Jan 7, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> and you'd know having been a member for less than 72 hours.


I think we should all pause for a game of 'guess the banned returner'.


----------



## stuff_it (Jan 7, 2013)

Harry Haller said:


> They're not fake wigs; they're real wigs.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 7, 2013)

stuff_it said:


> I think we should all pause for a game of 'guess the banned returner'.


Sounds very much like lock and light.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 7, 2013)

ern?


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 7, 2013)

steelgate


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 7, 2013)

diesel


----------



## Roadkill (Jan 7, 2013)

Elspeth Symrivi


----------



## Jon-of-arc (Jan 7, 2013)

These ppl are gonna feel really silly half way through their first yearof at least 10 in prison.


----------



## stuff_it (Jan 7, 2013)

Jon-of-arc said:


> These ppl are gonna feel really silly half way through their first yearof at least 10 in prison.


You can get jail for returning as a banned poster!?


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 7, 2013)

unless your legal bod hates you you won't get a ten stretch for criminal damage either


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 7, 2013)

Harry Haller said:


> Says the man who writes about a thousand posts a day saying more or less exactly the same thing. Every day of every year.


 
Poor old ******, you always were prone to exaggeration.


----------



## Greebo (Jan 7, 2013)

Harry Haller said:


> Says the man who writes about a thousand posts a day saying more or less exactly the same thing. Every day of every year.


Even if VP makes about a thousand posts a day (which he doesn't) and you haven't been here very long (at least in this incarnation), either you're a speedreader or you're talking out of your backside about the content of his posts.  I suggest that you read a little more.


----------



## Greebo (Jan 7, 2013)

Harry Haller said:


> I do appreciate that his uncontrolled windbaggery can be both prolific and wide-ranging.


Sweetie, nearly anyone's posts would be wider ranging than yours, concentrating as they do on this thread and the one about Facebook, New Statesman and LP.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 7, 2013)

kittyP said:


> I love the assumption that because we post on here, we can't be doing more than going on marches or to the pub.


 
I've been posting here for eleven years. I've read the threads. In terms of 'fight the system!' type activity, the most that gets mustered, for most of the people who do such things [and that's a minority], taking part in a few protest marches, is about it.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 7, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> What you don't do is undertake actions that endanger the people you're claiming to protect/fight for.
> .


 
Do you believe that radical change is possible without people being endangered, somewhere along the way?

Do you think 'The System' will give up without a fight?


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 7, 2013)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> Do you believe that radical change is possible without people being endangered, somewhere along the way?
> 
> Do you think 'The System' will give up without a fight?


Oh shut up.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 7, 2013)

oh spare me st jon the revelator telling us all how to be propah revo's ffs


----------



## Deareg (Jan 7, 2013)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> I've been posting here for eleven years. I've read the threads. In terms of 'fight the system!' type activity, the most that gets mustered, for most of the people who do such things [and that's a minority], taking part in a few protest marches, is about it.


You haven't been paying attention then.


----------



## cesare (Jan 7, 2013)

Yeah cos direct action is always fully advertised on public bulletin boards infested with OB


----------



## kittyP (Jan 7, 2013)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> I've been posting here for eleven years. I've read the threads. In terms of 'fight the system!' type activity, the most that gets mustered, for most of the people who do such things [and that's a minority], taking part in a few protest marches, is about it.


 
Hang on, I didn't say that. VP did


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 7, 2013)

I suppose, to be fair, I should acknowledge that some people do attend the Marxist Book Fair.


----------



## cesare (Jan 7, 2013)

Oh, a new event too.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 7, 2013)

couldn't even get that one right


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 7, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Oh shut up.


 
If you do this enough times, you might sway the crowd into a personal attack, as opposed to considering what I've asked. So...  keep it up. 

Makes for  more of a  'fun' thread.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 7, 2013)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> I suppose, to be fair, I should acknowledge that some people do attend the Marxist Book Fair.


Is that like the american football hockey final?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 7, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> oh spare me st jon the revelator telling us all how to be propah revo's ffs


 
I'm not telling anything. I'm asking a question.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 7, 2013)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> If you do this enough times, you might sway the crowd into a personal attack, as opposed to considering what I've asked. So... keep it up.
> 
> Makes for more of a 'fun' thread.


Making the considerations you are whining about are the basis of the criticisms of the actions that this thread is about. 

You blundering oaf.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 7, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Is that like the american football hockey final?


 
I've never been. Given the constant bickering on the boards by different 'marxist factions', it may well be like some sort of sporting match.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 7, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> You blundering oaf.


 
Keep it up: the worm is turning. I can feel it.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 7, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> couldn't even get that one right


 
Does knowing the exact name help you to fight The System?


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 7, 2013)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> Does knowing the exact name help you to fight The System?


 

it'd help you look a bit less like the blindfolded man in blind mans bluff


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 7, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> knocking over a few tele masts is not going to ake up the masses and se them throw aside their chains. Its just going to annoy people a lot. Like its the fucking tele that enslaves anyway.


 

I can tell that I've hit a nerve. All the armchair radicals are squawking their heads off.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 7, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> it'd help you look a bit less like the blindfolded man in blind mans bluff


 
You should thank me. It allows you to ignore the questions I'm asking, and focus on trivia like whether or not I know the correct name for some local event. It allows you to chuckle yourself back into a comfortable sleep.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 7, 2013)

you've got not a clue about what you are on about- carry on though, is very funny


----------



## fractionMan (Jan 7, 2013)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> You should thank me. It allows you to ignore the questions I'm asking, and focus on trivia like whether or not I know the correct name for some local event. It allows you to chuckle yourself back into a comfortable sleep.


 
you just look like a prick tbh


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 7, 2013)

Roadkill said:


> Elspeth Symrivi


 
' Elizabeth Shymrivi'


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 7, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> you've got not a clue about what you are on about- carry on though, is very funny


 
You haven't said one thing that isn't a personal attack, though,

Cat got your brain?


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 7, 2013)

_Hard questions. Disturbing questions._


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 7, 2013)

Too hard to get an intelligible answer out of you, apparently.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 7, 2013)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> Do you believe that radical change is possible without people being endangered, somewhere along the way?


 
Without "innocents" being wittingly endangered? Sure. Insurgencies can be and are often based around action that injures the apparatus of the state, not the citizenry.



> Do you think 'The System' will give up without a fight?


 
Of course not. No-one is pretending otherwise. There's a big difference, though, between insurgents and the state fighting, and endangering people who aren't part of your argument. I can't direct the state to behave properly, but I can ask people who claim to be anarchists to bear in mind that "collateral damage" isn't hazard-free for one's principles, even if you don't give a sod about innocents dying _per se_.


----------



## chilango (Jan 7, 2013)

Are you bored today or something JC?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 7, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Without "innocents" being wittingly endangered? Sure. Insurgencies can be and are often based around action that injures the apparatus of the state, not the citizenry.
> 
> 
> Of course not. No-one is pretending otherwise. There's a big difference, though, between insurgents and the state fighting, and endangering people who aren't part of your argument. I can't direct the state to behave properly, but I can ask people who claim to be anarchists to bear in mind that "collateral damage" isn't hazard-free for one's principles, even if you don't give a sod about innocents dying _per se_.


 

How many successful revolutions have occurred without at least some innocents being injured?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 7, 2013)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> If you do this enough times, you might sway the crowd into a personal attack, as opposed to considering what I've asked. So... keep it up.
> 
> Makes for more of a 'fun' thread.


 
He's doing you a favour, asking you to shut up about something you've very obviously not much of a clue about. Possibly he's even concerned that you're making yourself look more stupid than is usual (which, obviously, takes a fair bit of achieving).


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 7, 2013)

chilango said:


> Are you bored today or something JC?


 
I've spent the last half hour answering posts made in reply, while I eat my breakfast.


----------



## chilango (Jan 7, 2013)

...just seems to me you on a bit of a wind-up mission. Nothing like an Internet bicker to fill up a dull day, eh?


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 7, 2013)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> You haven't said one thing that isn't a personal attack, though,
> 
> Cat got your brain?


 

oh stop crying, you're spouting off a load of toss and making yourself look an idiot. If you want to examine the state of the british left and make a valid critique of it feel fucking free but when you don't even have the basic grammar down then you're going to have to try harder.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 7, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> He's doing you a favour, asking you to shut up about something you've very obviously not much of a clue about. Possibly he's even concerned that you're making yourself look more stupid than is usual (which, obviously, takes a fair bit of achieving).


 
Are you talking about butchersapron?

I'm sure everything you've said is his exact motivation. 

And no matter how many times you or butchers direct me to shut up, it won't change my opinion that the most 'radical activity' carried out by the majority of the people who do anything at all, involves going on marches or listening to speeches.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 7, 2013)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> How many successful revolutions have occurred without at least some innocents being injured?


 
It's all going right over your pointy little head, isn't it?

If you aim for no "collateral damage", then the effect is usually to *minimise* any such damage. If your strategy begins and ends with destroying infrastructure in a way that *causes* or has the marked potential to cause "collateral damage", then you'll have far more casualties, because you won't be acting with the minimisation of "collateral damage" in mind. Yes, people will undoubtedly get hurt. That doesn't mean you can't actively minimise the volume.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 7, 2013)

chilango said:


> ...just seems to me you on a bit of a wind-up mission. Nothing like an Internet bicker to fill up a dull day, eh?


 
The 'wind up mission', is replying to about six posters telling me to shut up etc.


----------



## JimW (Jan 7, 2013)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> You haven't said one thing that isn't a personal attack, though,
> 
> Cat got your brain?


You were answered about three pages back. Then you carried on repeating the same bollocks like you hadn't been, so no wonder people prefer to insult you than waste time giving replies you either don't read or don't understand.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 7, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Yes, people will undoubtedly get hurt. .


 
There's the answer. You agree with me.

That wasn't so hard, was it?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 7, 2013)

JimW said:


> You were answered about three pages back. Then you carried on repeating the same bollocks like you hadn't been, so no wonder people prefer to insult you than waste time giving replies you either don't read or don't understand.


 
Almost all of the gang is here now.

Who's yet to show up from the radical elite?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 7, 2013)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> I can tell that I've hit a nerve. All the armchair radicals are squawking their heads off.


 
Mostly we're facepalming at your inability to comprehend simple ideas, and the fact that you're stroking your cock thinking you've somehow "hit a nerve".
It's kind of like that cringy feeling you get when a relative does something really embarrassing, without thinking that what they've done is embarrassing.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 7, 2013)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> There's the answer. You agree with me.
> 
> That wasn't so hard, was it?


 
Don't selectively quote me, there's a good fuckwit.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 7, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> _Hard questions. Disturbing questions._


 
Hard like a wet turd, disturbing like an incontinent uncle.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 7, 2013)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> Are you talking about butchersapron?
> 
> I'm sure everything you've said is his exact motivation.
> 
> And no matter how many times you or butchers direct me to shut up, it won't change my opinion that the most 'radical activity' carried out by the majority of the people who do anything at all, involves going on marches or listening to speeches.


 
I'm not directing you to do anything. If you were directable I'd tell you to give yourself a swishie.
As for your opinions, perhaps you could post them as such, rather than presenting your opinions as hard and fast "done deeds"?


----------



## 1%er (Jan 7, 2013)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> Who's yet to show up from the radical elite?


Can I be part of the radical elite? (please)
I believe radical change only comes from the barrel of a gun and I'm not in an armchair, but I am in a deck-chair.


----------



## xenon (Jan 7, 2013)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> How many successful revolutions have occurred without at least some innocents being injured?



That doesn't even follow from what he said. i.e. deliberately targetting the citizenry, directly or by damaging infrastructure the citizenry are chiefly reliant upon, isn't the same as attacking the controlling arms of the state.

Civillions are often killed in conflict. Deliberately targetting them is generally frowned upon.


----------



## Jon-of-arc (Jan 7, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> unless your legal bod hates you you won't get a ten stretch for criminal damage either



Arson?


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 7, 2013)

Jon-of-arc said:


> Arson?


 

point, they do take a dim view of that.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 7, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Mostly we're facepalming at your inability to comprehend simple ideas, and the fact that you're stroking your cock thinking you've somehow "hit a nerve".
> It's kind of like that cringy feeling you get when a relative does something really embarrassing, without thinking that what they've done is embarrassing.


 I'm pretty good at comprehending simple ideas; I'm not stroking my cock - I just seem to have hit a nerve, given the number of people who came back yelling and calling names. That's usually a pretty accurate indicator. 

And: don't be embarrassed. I don't embarrass easily, so no need for you to do it for me.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 7, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> there's a good fuckwit.


 
This is what I mean. This is an indicator that you're getting overly worked up in a situation that, at first glance, wouldn't warrant it.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 7, 2013)

its a phrase he uses loads of times, no one is worked up, you just made an arse out of yourself jon.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 7, 2013)

xenon said:


> Deliberately targetting them is generally frowned upon.


 
I wish those al Qaida fuckups, Hamas etc, would come to the same conclusions as you.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 7, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> its a phrase he uses loads of times, no one is worked up, you just made an arse out of yourself jon.


 
Maybe he calls you a fuckwit all the time; me, he hasn't called me that within recent memory.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 7, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> oh stop crying, you're spouting off a load of toss and making yourself look an idiot. If you want to examine the state of the british left and make a valid critique of it feel fucking free but when you don't even have the basic grammar down then you're going to have to try harder.


 
The name of the Anarchist Bookfair or whatever it might be, isn't part of the grammar. It has nothing to do with ideas. Why not get off this namecalling bandwagon - it's too lazy. I know you're smarter than that.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 7, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> It's all going right over your pointy little head, isn't it?.


 
Were you redfaced with apoplectic rage when you typed this?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 7, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> If you were directable I'd tell you to give yourself a swishie.


 
I don't know what that means; but it sounds like something that one Grade 4 student would say to another.


----------



## free spirit (Jan 8, 2013)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> How many successful revolutions have occurred without at least some innocents being injured?


none.

More to the point though, how many successful revolutions have occurred after the masses rose up in union sparked into rising up after a few windows were smashed at a zoo?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 8, 2013)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> This is what I mean. This is an indicator that you're getting overly worked up in a situation that, at first glance, wouldn't warrant it.


 
I'm not "worked up", I'm patronising you, because clearly you're not too on the ball at the moment.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 8, 2013)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> Were you redfaced with apoplectic rage when you typed this?


 
Nope, I was smiling and shaking my head ruefully at your obtuseness, and wondering whether you should check whether your boiler is exceeding the safe carbon monoxide output limit.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 8, 2013)

free spirit said:


> none.
> 
> More to the point though, how many successful revolutions have occurred after the masses rose up in union sparked into rising up after a few windows were smashed at a zoo?


 
The great Chessington revolution, that led to the formation of the Peoples' Republic of Surrey?

Oh, wait...


----------



## likesfish (Jan 8, 2013)

Things will have to get a whole lot worse before the masses follow the example of the bristol zoo liberators.
  Infact I cant imagine how bad things would have to be that following somebody who throws stones at windows seems like a viable idea and I'm me


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 8, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> I'm not "worked up", I'm patronising you, because clearly you're not too on the ball at the moment.


 
Calling someone 'fuckwit' is you idea of being patronizing?

Someone's not on the ball, that's for sure.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 8, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Nope, I was smiling and shaking my head ruefully at your obtuseness, and wondering whether you should check whether your boiler is exceeding the safe carbon monoxide output limit.


 
I think it was you. Today, you seem to be able to manage a post that doesn't contain swearwords and insults. Welcome to Tuesday, VP.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 19, 2013)

This is a real article. The person who write it thinks that what he was written is true.

Meet the nihilist-anarchist network bringing chaos to a town near you



> The FAI's history runs back to the 90s and they're responsible for thousands of violent attacks, from blowing up banks in Chile to burning out cars belonging to Tory MPs and the Lord Mayor of Bristol. After sifting through the materials handed to me by the FAI, I still have no idea why they targeted the Lord Mayor of Bristol. And neither, judging by his quotes in this local news report, does he, but it seems his Toyota Prius and his wife's Ford Fiesta were deemed to be part of the European Fortress and so they had to die in the nihilists' fire.
> 
> Although officially founded as a movement in 2003, the FAI’s first recognized attack was in 1999, when they sent explosive devices to the Greek embassy, to an office of tourism in Madrid, and to a branch of Citibank in Barcelona. They sent the explosives in the mail to show solidarity with a man named Nikos Maziotis, now infamous for his statement to the Athens Criminal Court, after he was arrested for putting a bomb in the Ministry of Industry and Development in Greece on December 12th, 1997.
> 
> After the 1999 mail bombs, FAI cells sent a torrent of incendiary explosive devices to organizations and journalists such as La Razón newspaper in Madrid, the church of Sant'Ambrogio, the court of Valencia, the Madrid Cathedral, and the Carabinieri (the national military police of Italy) in Genoa, which detonated and wounded one of the policemen. They've also sent out “parcels of dog shit” to two of their targets.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Feb 19, 2013)

fucking hell what a piss take


----------



## sihhi (Feb 19, 2013)

> “I think that one interesting thing over the last decade is how more traditional news repositories like broadsheets have veered towards lifestyle journalism,” UK editor Alex Miller told Press Gazette.
> 
> “Yet we, who are supposed to just go to loads of parties, have actually gone in the other direction and become more serious and more interested in international news and politics.
> “I think that we’re all as one in agreement that news is more interesting than frivolity, and that actually with the world as it is, and the way it has been for the last decade, it’s madness to turn away from current affairs.
> ...


 
http://www.pressgazette.co.uk/vice-magazine-celebrates-10-years-uk-news-more-interesting-frivolity

Does VICE recognise the NUJ?


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 13, 2013)

I wonder, were these clowns mums behind the _dead men don't rape_ sprayed on the centre cenotaph in 85?


----------



## TremulousTetra (Mar 13, 2013)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> Are you talking about butchersapron?
> 
> I'm sure everything you've said is his exact motivation.
> 
> And no matter how many times you or butchers direct me to shut up, it won't change my opinion that the most 'radical activity' carried out by the majority of the people who do anything at all, involves going on marches or listening to speeches.


 haven't read all your contributions.  Don't really like butchers dictatorial style myself, however, marches and speech is not really his thing, to be fair.  Or any of the others.  Me on the other hand, quite like a march.


----------



## two sheds (Mar 14, 2013)

DaveCinzano said:


> Further to the above comment, which referred to the EDO Decommissioners case, the judgement in the appeal brought by John Catt in relation to intelligence data held by the police on non-violent protesters AKA 'domestic extremists' was given yesterday.
> 
> It fell in favour of the police, ACPO and the NPOIU/NDEU.
> 
> ...


 
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/mar/14/protester-wins-surveillance-fight
*



			Protester wins surveillance database fight
		
Click to expand...

*


> John Catt, who has no criminal record, wins legal action to have records deleted from police database of suspected extremists
> 
> Three appeal court judges have ruled that police violated the human rights of an 88-year-old peaceful campaigner when they secretly labelled him a "domestic extremist" and recorded his political activities.
> 
> ...


 


I wonder how many people on here have similar records.

And again shows the value of human rights legislation and why the government hates it so much.


----------



## two sheds (Mar 14, 2013)

..


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 14, 2013)

two sheds said:


> ..


 
Liberal cunt!!!


----------



## chilango (Mar 14, 2013)

two sheds said:


> I wonder how many people on here have similar records.
> 
> And again shows the value of human rights legislation and why the government hates it so much.



I know I will but mine will be if bugger all use to anyone as I'm sure I'm down as an "animal rights activist" and "AC Milan Ultra" despite being a dedicated carnivore and supporter of hunting and a Man utd fan...


----------



## two sheds (Mar 14, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Liberal cunt!!!


 
Fair cop, guvner


----------



## gawkrodger (Jul 1, 2013)

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/articles/484792/20130630/anarchists-border-agency-anit-immigration.htm


----------



## SpineyNorman (Jul 1, 2013)

Wow, that'll end well!


----------



## stuff_it (Jul 1, 2013)

gawkrodger said:


> http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/articles/484792/20130630/anarchists-border-agency-anit-immigration.htm


 
Seem to be oddly few comments.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jul 1, 2013)

stuff_it said:


> Seem to be oddly few comments.


 

The one comment there is though, is a corker!


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jul 1, 2013)

Mr.Bishie said:


> The one comment there is though, is a corker!


I think we can safely say that Philip Smeeton has covered all the major food groups necessary for an exemplary below-the-line comment.


----------



## 8ball (Jul 1, 2013)

DaveCinzano said:


> I think we can safely say that Philip Smeeton has covered all the major food groups necessary for an exemplary below-the-line comment.


 
I suspect Philip Smeeton is an undercover police officer, as are most of those involved in the campaign.

Wouldn't surprise me if he was their boss...


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 1, 2013)

Do he have a van?


----------



## 8ball (Jul 1, 2013)

Vans are going to be frowned upon for some time, I can tell.


----------



## Riklet (Jul 1, 2013)

depends how big it is, doesn't it.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 27, 2013)

We hate you

Thanks and welcome to the city. Lot of 'us'.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Aug 27, 2013)

I did wonder whether there would be claims such as this from the IA &c. Awkward days ahead!


----------



## Geri (Aug 27, 2013)

It's a good thing I don't know anything as I would never be able to withstand torture.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 27, 2013)

> The struggle will continue until all are wild and free.




No it won't.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Aug 27, 2013)

let's form an anti-div group and take these numpties on


----------



## JHE (Aug 27, 2013)

> The struggle will continue until all are wild and free.
> 
> -Angry Foxes Cell in collaboration with ACAB


 
I am quite surprised that Avonmouth Citizens' Advice Bureau has got involved in terrorism.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Aug 27, 2013)

JHE said:


> I am quite surprised that Avonmouth Citizens' Advice Bureau has got involved in terrorism.


The cuts have upset a lot of people.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 27, 2013)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> let's form an anti-div group and take these numpties on


 
An anti-div anti-anti-civ group?


----------



## danny la rouge (Aug 27, 2013)

JHE said:


> I am quite surprised that Avonmouth Citizens' Advice Bureau has got involved in terrorism.


They've been pushed too far.


----------



## Jon-of-arc (Aug 27, 2013)

So I get the beef with the railway sabotaging. It's most likely to inconvenience workers and ordinary bods, and isn't really a target that has any value.

But a police fire arms training centre? Seems like sort of fair game to me. I've seen people mention that this might bring "heat" on their own left wing group which wouldn't engage in something so trivial, dangerous or illegal, and that certainly seems fair comment. Beyond that (and I wouldn't deny that that alone wouldn't be a perfectly good reason to want to distance yourself) what is the specific issue with this action?


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 27, 2013)

You've 'seen'  - you only heard of it five minutes ago.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 27, 2013)

Jon-of-arc said:


> So I get the beef with the railway sabotaging. It's most likely to inconvenience workers and ordinary bods, and isn't really a target that has any value.
> 
> But a police fire arms training centre? Seems like sort of fair game to me. I've seen people mention that this might bring "heat" on their own left wing group which wouldn't engage in something so trivial, dangerous or illegal, and that certainly seems fair comment. Beyond that (and I wouldn't deny that that alone wouldn't be a perfectly good reason to want to distance yourself) what is the specific issue with this action?


So, avoiding all the context, the arguments and that complicated stuff that people on the ground have to face, _woah!! what a picture._


----------



## DaveCinzano (Aug 27, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> You've 'seen' - you only heard of it five minutes ago.


Well, Jon-of-arc has been posting on this thread since May 2012, and presumably reading it as well.


----------



## Jon-of-arc (Aug 27, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> You've 'seen'  - you only heard of it five minutes ago.



????

Well, I've been following this thread since day one, and even posted on it in the first few pages. I've seen people mention, somewhere, on this thread, that they might be under closer scrutiny. That was more than 5 minutes ago. Might have been over a year...

Anyway, was a genuine question.


----------



## Jon-of-arc (Aug 27, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> So, avoiding all the context, the arguments and that complicated stuff that people on the ground have to face, _woah!! what a picture._



So the reason you find this so shit is because their politics seem superficial and without... I don't know what word to use... Mandate?


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 27, 2013)

The latest, the one he's concerned with. The one he asked about "I've seen people mention that this might bring "heat" on their own left wing group ". Then suggested it was justified - i.e this action.

Got a genuine answer.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 27, 2013)

Jon-of-arc said:


> So the reason you find this so shit is because their politics seem superficial and without... I don't know what word to use... Mandate?


 
What?


----------



## Jon-of-arc (Aug 27, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> The latest, the one he's concerned with. The one he asked about "I've seen people mention that this might bring "heat" on their own left wing group ". Then suggested it was justified - i.e this action.
> 
> Got a genuine answer.



I didn't say it was justified. I said police stations seem like "fair game", by which I mean I didn't think too many leftists would be that bothered either way what someone else might chose to do to it. What with lots of them not liking the police very much, and having a bit of a thing for organised civil disobedience. 

I just wondered why this was seen as different to other actions people might take.


----------



## Jon-of-arc (Aug 27, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> What?



That was me attempting to put into my own words my understanding of your words I had quoted, with the hope that you might correct or clarify if I had misunderstood something.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 27, 2013)

But you'd already heard people talking about this action 5 minutes after it was posted?


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 27, 2013)

Jon-of-arc said:


> I didn't say it was justified. I said police stations seem like "fair game", by which I mean I didn't think too many leftists would be that bothered either way what someone else might chose to do to it. What with lots of them not liking the police very much, and having a bit of a thing for organised civil disobedience.
> 
> I just wondered why this was seen as different to other actions people might take.


 
Jesus, never do politics near me.


----------



## Jon-of-arc (Aug 27, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> But you'd already heard people talking about this action 5 minutes after it was posted?



Literally, what are you talking about?


----------



## Jon-of-arc (Aug 27, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Jesus, never do politics near me.



I wasn't planning on it. 

You know, if you don't want to answer the question, you can just ignore it. I was hoping you and others might expand on what your issue with this was.


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 27, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> The latest, the one he's concerned with. The one he asked about "I've seen people mention that this might bring "heat" on their own left wing group ". Then suggested it was justified - i.e this action.
> 
> Got a genuine answer.



I thought earlier in the thread you spoke of people's doors going in. Will try and find it. Does he mean that?


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 27, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> ...and people whose doors are now likely to be going in.



This.


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 27, 2013)

Jon-of-arc said:


> So the reason you find this so shit is because their politics seem superficial and without... I don't know what word to use... Mandate?



Attacking a railway line is hardly class politics is it? Is the driver landed gentry or something?


----------



## Jon-of-arc (Aug 27, 2013)

Citizen66 said:


> Attacking a railway line is hardly class politics is it? Is the driver landed gentry or something?



I fully understand the issue with the railway line. Fucks people up who are just trying to get to work. That was shit.

It's torching a cop fire arms centre that I'm less clear about people's objections to. Not that I think it's a particularly worthy action. I'm just a lot more ambiguous in my feelings on the matter.


----------



## JHE (Aug 27, 2013)

Jon-of-arc said:


> I'm just a lot more ambiguous in my feelings on the matter.


 

ambivalent


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 27, 2013)

Jon-of-arc said:


> I fully understand the issue with the railway line. Fucks people up who are just trying to get to work. That was shit.
> 
> It's torching a cop fire arms centre that I'm less clear about people's objections to. Not that I think it's a particularly worthy action. I'm just a lot more ambiguous in my feelings on the matter.



Because it needlessly gets the old bills back up without actually damaging them in any way. So *known* anarchists are likely to get crap for actions not of their doing. Why don't they organise around workfare, the NHS or any of the other zillion things being attacked at the moment instead of this infantile James Bond shit?


----------



## Jon-of-arc (Aug 27, 2013)

Citizen66 said:


> Because it needlessly gets the old bills back up without actually damaging them in any way. So *known* anarchists are likely to get crap for actions not of their doing. Why don't they organise around workfare, the NHS or any of the other zillion things being attacked at the moment instead of this infantile James Bond shit?



Thanks for the answer. 

I'd be interested to hear them address some of these criticisms. Who knows? Maybe they are doing some more formal organising and campaigns, etc. I suppose of they were, when they inevitably get caught, they would tar innocent associates with the same brush.


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 27, 2013)

Well that's my answer, can't speak for butchers.


----------



## kenny g (Aug 28, 2013)

Citizen66 said:


> Because it needlessly gets the old bills back up without actually damaging them in any way.


 
I suspect that an institutions HQ being firebombed does "actually damage" in some way.


----------



## bi0boy (Aug 28, 2013)

Citizen66 said:


> Why don't they organise around workfare, the NHS or any of the other zillion things being attacked at the moment instead of this infantile James Bond shit?


 
The lead instigator of such actions is probably a cop.


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 28, 2013)

kenny g said:


> I suspect that an institutions HQ being firebombed does "actually damage" in some way.



You only 'suspect' that a fire bomb causes damage? 

What I meant was - seeing as you need it pointing out - it won't actually harm their operations so all in all it was an exercise in self indulgence.


----------



## Bakunin (Aug 28, 2013)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-somerset-23861098

It's gone national now. Looking at the pics I'd say it was quite a fire they started.

Two things about this concern me. One is that it will have put firefighters at risk to put this blaze out, the other is that Avon & Somerset will more than likely be beating the bushes looking for whoever did this and that will cause a lot of disruption for other activists and groups. The plod won't just want to catch whoever did this, they'll be looking to save face and remind the Great Unwashed of who's in charge and I wouldn't be surprised if they end up kicking down doors, appearing on people's doorsteps with an air of 'We can discuss this at your home or drag you down to the station' and, while they're kicking down doors, also they may opt for some large-scale intelligence-gathering by seizing computers, paperwork, documents etc.

I'd also note that, according to the group's statement, the firearms training school they torched is directly beneath the Avon & Somerset Police regional HQ. Which, in the eyes of the plod, is likely to amount to a declaration of war. 

There IS going to be a shitstorm over this.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 28, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> We hate you
> 
> Thanks and welcome to the city. Lot of 'us'.


 
I'm going to be unconcscionably shallow here, and say that *that* was one of the most poorly-written press releases I've ever seen. It verged on Dave fucking Spart, for crying out loud.

And in case the author is reading this - sunshine, slashing tyres and pouring Nitromors on bodywork does *superficial* damage. Sand or sugar in the oil reservoir or fuel tank costs the owner/lessee or their insurer a new engine.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 28, 2013)

Geri said:


> It's a good thing I don't know anything as I would never be able to withstand torture.


 
You listen to opera. You've *proven* your ability to withstand torture!!!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 28, 2013)

Jon-of-arc said:


> So I get the beef with the railway sabotaging. It's most likely to inconvenience workers and ordinary bods, and isn't really a target that has any value.
> 
> But a police fire arms training centre? Seems like sort of fair game to me. I've seen people mention that this might bring "heat" on their own left wing group which wouldn't engage in something so trivial, dangerous or illegal, and that certainly seems fair comment. Beyond that (and I wouldn't deny that that alone wouldn't be a perfectly good reason to want to distance yourself) what is the specific issue with this action?


 
There's several issues here, in my estimation:

1) The claiming of the fire by "radicals" provides the secret state with an excuse to intimidate people in the south-west with avowedly "alternative" politics to a greater extent than they already do. 

2) The damage reports vary from "devastating" (the tabloids) to causing a "setback" (the construction companies).  If the latter, then all they've done is put back completion by a couple of months a gesture rather than an effective action.

3) This doesn't *actively* inconvenience the Old Bill.  The constabularies/police services still retain their individual ranges.  All this has done is cause them to continue to use those facilities, rather than the shiny new one.

As I've said before on this thread, these folk seem to be all about striking poses and doing superficial headline-snatching stuff.  That doesn't float my boat.  If you're seriously committed to physical force anti-state action, you'd target infrastructure that has a direct and persistent effect on the state, not just hit targets-of-opportunity that generate headlines.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 28, 2013)

Citizen66 said:


> Because it needlessly gets the old bills back up without actually damaging them in any way. So *known* anarchists are likely to get crap for actions not of their doing. Why don't they organise around workfare, the NHS or any of the other zillion things being attacked at the moment instead of this infantile James Bond shit?


 
Destroying or undermining the local DWP/Jobcentreplus information hub would be more long-term praiseworthy, but nowhere near as publicity-garnering, though.


----------



## Jon-of-arc (Aug 28, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Destroying or undermining the local DWP/Jobcentreplus information hub would be more long-term praiseworthy, but nowhere near as publicity-garnering, though.



in theory, then, could you (or anyone else on this thread for that matter) support high risk, high damage attacks on public infrastructure, were the reasons behind the action ideologically sound?

would many of the same objections, re police response and media portrayal not apply?


----------



## Dogsauce (Aug 28, 2013)

Has anyone confirmed this was the cause of the fire, and not just some Walter Mitty taking credit for an electrical fault or something like that?


----------



## el-ahrairah (Aug 28, 2013)

i read and appreciate all the arguments against this from other anarchists and lefties.  but there's not enough propaganda of the deed these days so i can't help approving.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 28, 2013)

Jon-of-arc said:


> in theory, then, could you (or anyone else on this thread for that matter) support high risk, high damage attacks on public infrastructure, were the reasons behind the action ideologically sound?


 
I would. I saw how effective infrastructure sabotage was in Germany in stopping nuclear material being moved around the country unsafely.
I'm not just talking about public infrastructure, though, I'm talking about infrastructure _per se_, including the privately-owned media infrastructure.



> would many of the same objections, re police response and media portrayal not apply?


 
My point was that if you're being "ideologically sound", then you can minimise the effects on people who aren't your targets, and that police harrassment and media misrepresentation will happen anyway, but *without* the added fillip of you, the activist, having provided a rod for your own back.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 28, 2013)

el-ahrairah said:


> i read and appreciate all the arguments against this from other anarchists and lefties. but there's not enough propaganda of the deed these days so i can't help approving.


 
I agree that there isn't, but I'm firmly of the opinion that anyonne that way inclined that has a bit of _nous_ can find a target that doesn't blow-back onto their entire political milieu, or if it does, can be exposed as being state noisemaking.


----------



## Jon-of-arc (Aug 28, 2013)

el-ahrairah said:


> i read and appreciate all the arguments against this from other anarchists and lefties.  but there's not enough propaganda of the deed these days so i can't help approving.



they'll be fucked when (not if...) they get caught though.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Aug 28, 2013)

Jon-of-arc said:


> they'll be fucked when (not if...) they get caught though.


Or, the _person or persons who get caught and determined to be culpable (regardless of any actual involvement)_ will be fucked.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 28, 2013)

it seems to me it's a good thing the angry brigade aren't about today or they'd have had a hell of a slating from people here.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 28, 2013)

Quite right too.


----------



## sunnysidedown (Aug 28, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Quite right too.


 
hindsight is a wonderful thing.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 28, 2013)

Use it. Don't mock it.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Aug 28, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> I agree that there isn't, but I'm firmly of the opinion that anyonne that way inclined that has a bit of _nous_ can find a target that doesn't blow-back onto their entire political milieu, or if it does, can be exposed as being state noisemaking.


 
i'd agree with this.  but i think opinions would vary of what the target should be.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Aug 28, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> it seems to me it's a good thing the angry brigade aren't about today or they'd have had a hell of a slating from people here.


 


butchersapron said:


> Quite right too.


 
i don't know a lot about the Angry Brigade but I've always liked the idea of carbombing Tories.  what's the criticism of them butchers?


----------



## sunnysidedown (Aug 28, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Use it. Don't mock it.


 
stand up against anarcho-reactionaryism. fair point.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 28, 2013)

el-ahrairah said:


> i don't know a lot about the Angry Brigade but I've always liked the idea of carbombing Tories. what's the criticism of them butchers?


 
My criticism of them? The same as theirs. That they thought they were a vanguard expressing the most advanced class opinions - and the reality was that they weren't and they helped isolate themselves from the movements they saw themselves as part of.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Aug 28, 2013)

fair enough.  can you recommend a good book on them?


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 28, 2013)

Gordon Carr's book is prob what's needed.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Aug 28, 2013)

See also this by John Barker http://libcom.org/library/review-angry-brigade-vague-book-barker 

(The review by John Barker is the best thing about the Tom Vague book. It's not a terrible book, but the Carr one is better)


----------



## Ground Elder (Aug 28, 2013)

The John Barker review is included in the PM Press edition of the Gordon Carr book.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 28, 2013)

Fozzie Bear said:


> See also this by John Barker http://libcom.org/library/review-angry-brigade-vague-book-barker
> 
> (The review by John Barker is the best thing about the Tom Vague book. It's not a terrible book, but the Carr one is better)


 
That's an excellent thoughtful honest review.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Aug 28, 2013)

The 2010 reprinting of the Carr book includes interesting extra material - the aforementioned Barker review of the Tom Vague book, the transcript of an interview with Cremer (the 'Situationist cop'), Stuart Christie's chronology of the 'Angry Decade' (January 1966-December 1975), plus all the communiqués. Happily it is also a fully indexed tome.

Try before you buy:

libcom.org/files/Angry%20Brigade%20Book.pdf


----------



## DaveCinzano (Aug 28, 2013)

Wheeler's going all Roger Cook on us:



> I've been following anarchist group behind the Bristol arson attack for over a year, police are playing down threat


 
https://twitter.com/brianwhelanhack/status/372734875368833025



> *Bristol arson attack linked to anarchist terror network*
> 
> An anarchist cell linked to a Europe-wide network of 'insurrectionists' has struck again in Bristol - Channel 4 News can reveal their history of sabotage and arson attacks in the UK.
> Avon and Somerset police are investigating the major arson attack at the site of a planned police firearms training centre near Bristol.
> ...


 
http://www.channel4.com/news/informal-anarchist-federation-bristol-arson-attack-anarchist


----------



## el-ahrairah (Aug 28, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Gordon Carr's book is prob what's needed.


 
cheers


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 28, 2013)

DaveCinzano said:


> Wheeler's going all Roger Cook on us:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 This what wheels cost now?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 28, 2013)

Bakunin said:


> I'd also note that, according to the group's statement, the firearms training school they torched is directly beneath the Avon & Somerset Police regional HQ. Which, in the eyes of the plod, is likely to amount to a declaration of war.


 

Technically you can't declare war on people who have already declared war on you.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 28, 2013)

Technically war cannot happen then.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 28, 2013)

It's not by the cop shop either, it's by a huge *other building*.


----------



## JHE (Aug 28, 2013)

In February somebody planted a home-made bomb in the cathedral in Madrid. The bomb consisted of a cylinder of camping gas, gunpowder and about a kilo of screws, along with a home-made detonator made from an alarm clock. Fortunately, the bomb did not explode. It was safely dismantled.

The bomb attempt was claimed by an anarchist group (or perhaps an individual posing as a group), who explained that it was intended as a blow against the monarchy.

It is a mystery how anyone could suppose that the screws and other shrapnel would have ripped through Bourbon flesh rather than the equally vulnerable flesh of normal folk.

English Anarcho-Wotsits are less dangerous. This attack in Portishead was basically arson on a building site. No one's life was endangered, as far as I can see, and the culprits like foxes and badgers, which is rather sweet.

The bombers in Madrid named their group after an early 20th-century would-be regicide, Mateo Morral. The West Country arsonists could call themselves the Wind in The Willows Brigade.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 28, 2013)

Go away you silly man


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 28, 2013)

DaveCinzano said:


> Or, the _person or persons who get caught and determined to be culpable (regardless of any actual involvement)_ will be fucked.


 
"C'mon Nosher, let's fit up that cunt Cinzano. I've been dying to have a pop at him since he wrote about us in his rag".


----------



## lazyhack (Aug 28, 2013)

DaveCinzano said:


> Wheeler's going all Roger Cook on us:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 



_What are you guys doing with all this hooky gear?_


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Aug 28, 2013)

feck off ye besterd


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 28, 2013)

*


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Aug 28, 2013)

The headline "Anarchist Terror Cell" is a fucking corker!


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 28, 2013)

lazyhack said:


> > An anarchist cell linked to a Europe-wide network of 'insurrectionists' claims to have struck again in Bristol - Channel 4 News can reveal their history of sabotage and arson attacks in the UK.


 
How much did you get for the above nonsense wheels? Or are you on contract?


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 28, 2013)

Mr.Bishie said:


> The headline "Anarchist Terror Cell" is a fucking corker!


 
It gets better:

 Bristol arson attack linked to anarchist terror *network*


----------



## lazyhack (Aug 28, 2013)

I work here. I get what I get regardless of writing that or not.

IAF have carried out about 30 odd arson/sabotage actions around Bristol/Nottingham, it's a real thing. Across Europe, there's plenty more operating under the name. You may not like it, but they do exist.


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 28, 2013)

evil ringmaster discovered a way to herd cats and now they do his evil bidding


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 28, 2013)

lazyhack said:


> I work here. I get what I get regardless of writing that or not.
> 
> IAF have carried out about 30 odd arson/sabotage actions around Bristol/Nottingham, it's a real thing. Across Europe, there's plenty more operating under the name. You may not like it, but they do exist.


 
Don't tell me via your c4 report what is a real thing. I live here. I know what's a real thing. And how does it being your job excuse Anarchist Terror Cell and anarchist terror network you clown?


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Aug 28, 2013)

it's more like an insurrectionist minor phobia thing


----------



## lazyhack (Aug 28, 2013)

Is the IAF not an anarchist terror network? What would you call a group of people operating with unity of purpose to carry out bombings across several countries? Or do you just think they don't exist?


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 28, 2013)

lazyhack said:


> Is the IAF not an anarchist terror network? What would you call a group of people operating with unity of purpose to carry out bombings across several countries? Or do you just think they don't exist?


 
You're going to try and defend it?

No, of course it's not _an anarchist terror network? _That you need even ask the question. Please do the bit where you elide the contintenal groups together with these clowns. IT'S A TERROR NETWORK!!!!! again.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 28, 2013)

They say the job doesn't change you. They're liars.


----------



## lazyhack (Aug 28, 2013)

Weirdo.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 28, 2013)

10 years ago you were laughing at people who wrote what you are now defending and writing. Well done.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Aug 28, 2013)

I'm pretty sure you don't pass your Terrorism GCSE until you've actually _terrified_ a few people. Generating mild irritation, loud tutting or even an unusually large number of dog-on-string allusive letters in the _Post_ would all earn a big, fat Fail.


----------



## lazyhack (Aug 28, 2013)

I wouldn't get too nostalgic for ten years ago.


----------



## Jon-of-arc (Aug 28, 2013)

If the vice report linked to at the bottom of that c4 article is anything to go by, IAF have knee capped some blokey in Italy, and sent letter bombs to MEPs. Sounds a bit terroristey to me. Maybe not the uk branch, but the Europe wide group. Fuck knows how much of a real "thing" this is, though. I'm dubious about some of the reports of manifestos and meeting transcripts referred to there.

They're not exactly the red brigade, but they are starting to come across more and more like the angry brigade, who have certainly been described fairly un controversially as terrorists. 

What is a fucking terrorist, anyway? Could the government use terror legislation against these people, for their actions so far?  Anonymous communiques, cells, damage to infrastructure. These are aspects of terrorist acts.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 28, 2013)

See, this is the problem whelan. This shit above.


----------



## lazyhack (Aug 28, 2013)

Of course it is terrorism, if you want to argue whether or not its supportable that's fine, but as a series of crimes they're terrorist actions. 

At least dissident republicans are less moralistic about their actions and how you refer to them, anarchist remain an overly sensitive bunch of souls.


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 28, 2013)

Is it a 'branch' though? Or just a name that anyone can set up under and run with?

Jon-of-arc


----------



## lazyhack (Aug 28, 2013)

Urgh, Angry Brigade tried that one, but it is clearly a very small group of people.


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 28, 2013)

lazyhack said:


> Of course it is terrorism, if you want to argue whether or not its supportable that's fine, but as a series of crimes they're terrorist actions.



Can you point to examples of arsonists and vandals being charged under the prevention of terrorism act?


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 28, 2013)

lazyhack said:


> Of course it is terrorism, if you want to argue whether or not its supportable that's fine, but as a series of crimes they're terrorist actions.
> 
> At least dissident republicans are less moralistic about their actions and how you refer to them, anarchist remain an overly sensitive bunch of souls.


 
Amazing the person who either wrote or allowed 'anarchist terror network" and ' anarchist cell' to go under his name accuses people who think this is shit of ...wait for it...moralism. Instead of the pure neutral objective stuff that presents  'anarchist terror network" and ' anarchist cell' .


----------



## JHE (Aug 28, 2013)

lazyhack said:


> Of course it is terrorism, if you want to argue whether or not its supportable that's fine, but as a series of crimes they're terrorist actions.


 

Yes, it's terrorism, but it's not premier league terrorism.  It's not third or fourth division either.  It's more Sunday league amateur kickabout stuff.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Aug 28, 2013)

Jon-of-arc said:


> ...Maybe not the uk branch...


 
Clearly I was referring to what has been happening in Bristol for the past 4+ years.


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 28, 2013)

JHE said:


> Yes, it's terrorism, but it's not premier league terrorism.  It's not third or fourth division either.  It's more Sunday league amateur kickabout stuff.



It's Vauxhall Conference Vandalism.


----------



## lazyhack (Aug 28, 2013)

Citizen66 said:


> Can you point to examples of arsonists and vandals being charged under the prevention of terrorism act?


 
See Tarnac 9, etc.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 28, 2013)

lazyhack said:


> See Tarnac 9, etc.


 
Excellent, law in a different country and so not PTA. I see why you were headhunted.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Aug 28, 2013)

All this waffle notwithstanding, I'm pretty certain it's the first and last time _Aufheben_ will get a namecheck in the _Post_.


----------



## lazyhack (Aug 28, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Excellent, law in a different country and so not PTA. I see why you were headhunted.


 

Do you think POT wouldn't be used against political arsonists?


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 28, 2013)

lazyhack said:


> Do you think POT wouldn't be used against political arsonists?


 
What's that got to do with you claiming that it has been?


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 28, 2013)

lazyhack said:


> See Tarnac 9, etc.



Not a very water tight example. So vandalism by a political group becomes terrorism? Who was terrorised?


----------



## JHE (Aug 28, 2013)

DaveCinzano said:


> All this waffle notwithstanding, I'm pretty certain it's the first and last time _Aufheben_ will get a namecheck in the _Post_.


 

Mentioned because some top Anarcho-Wotsit theorist allegedly works for Plod.  It's a funny old world.


----------



## Jon-of-arc (Aug 28, 2013)

DaveCinzano said:


> Clearly I was referring to what has been happening in Bristol for the past 4+ years.



Fair enough. I'm not looking to criticise or argue. Just thought it worthy of further discussion.


----------



## Jon-of-arc (Aug 28, 2013)

Citizen66 said:


> Is it a 'branch' though? Or just a name that anyone can set up under and run with?
> 
> Jon-of-arc



Indeed. We have no idea. I find it hard to envisage the highly organised group depicted in the vice article, with cells who communicate and have "manifestos" and some sort of common tactics, goals and structure. But that's what's being reported, true or not, I have no particular issue with the term terrorist. Might be stretching the definition a bit with the wurzel "cells" actions, tbf.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 28, 2013)

Jon-of-arc said:


> But that's what's being reported, true or not,


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 28, 2013)

May i remind combabes.


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 28, 2013)

Jon-of-arc said:


> Indeed. We have no idea. I find it hard to envisage the highly organised group depicted in the vice article, with cells who communicate and have "manifestos" and some sort of common tactics, goals and structure. But that's what's being reported, true or not, I have no particular issue with the term terrorist. Might be stretching the definition a bit with the wurzel "cells" actions, tbf.



Terrorism is a particular political strategy that aims to achieve a certain effect regarding public confidence. Any old vandalism or arson doesn't quite cut it. Of course the state will want to make it stick for lengthy time banged up but it flies in the face of what terrorism actually is. How does damaging unoccupied property knock public confidence?


----------



## Jon-of-arc (Aug 28, 2013)

Citizen66 said:


> Terrorism is a particular political strategy that aims to achieve a certain effect regarding public confidence. Any old vandalism or arson doesn't quite cut it. Of course the state will want to make it stick for lengthy time banged up but it flies in the face of what terrorism actually is. How does damaging unoccupied property knock public confidence?



Fair point. Again, I was mostly referring to the some of the things some of the Europe groups had done, but for the purpose of this discussion, i'll keep it about the uk bods.

I don't think they are terrorists. They certainly don't seem to be describing themselves as such. They don't seem to have any strong desire to influence public opinion or state policy via the means of intimidation. That said, they do seem to be employing some of the tactics of terrorist groups. Attacks on property and infrastructure were key to IRA mainland bombing campaigns. I had LiamO once say to me that there was no evidence that any of the bombings ever intended to kill anyone. No idea if this is true or not, but certainly plenty of their bombs came with warnings that allowed plenty of time to evacuate all areas of danger. So it is a tactic that terrorists use. 

Of course, you are right that it dilutes the term some what. The media will probably use it, though, and given that this group have allied themselves with others who are using terror tactics there is some justification. Hyperbole, but not an out and out falsehood. If some Muslims tried something similar and claimed to be affiliated with al Qaeda, then the term would be used without hesitation.


----------



## JHE (Aug 28, 2013)

Jon-of-arc said:


> If some Muslims tried something similar and claimed to be affiliated with al Qaeda, then the term would be used without hesitation.


 
Yes, but their claim to be affiliated to al-Q would be pretty dubious.  Al-Q are into spectacular murder.  That's part of their brand.

Al-Q and their ilk are part of the problem for fifth-rate terrorists, like the Anarcho-Arsonists, looking for publicity.  Al-Q keeps upstaging them.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Aug 28, 2013)

No less a personage than Sir Steve of Brodie has been chosen to impart A&SC's current thinking that it's time to MOVE ALONG, NOTHING TO SEE HERE...



> *Steve Brodie* ‏@*bbcwestbrodie*
> Avon & Somerset police say no links between attacks as claimed by groups on web sites after police training centre fire near Bristol.
> 7:04 PM - 28 Aug 13


https://twitter.com/bbcwestbrodie/status/372781846863810561


----------



## DaveCinzano (Aug 28, 2013)

Shiv Malik tweaks things a little - sourcing 325 rather than BIM - as is his wont. Even reverses the initialism FAI! Crazy guy.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013/aug/28/anarchist-fire-police-firearms-training


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 28, 2013)

Jon-of-arc said:


> Attacks on property and infrastructure were key to IRA mainland bombing campaigns. I had LiamO once say to me that there was no evidence that any of the bombings ever intended to kill anyone. No idea if this is true or not, but certainly plenty of their bombs came with warnings that allowed plenty of time to evacuate all areas of danger. So it is a tactic that terrorists use.



Yes, but like I said, it's about altering public confidence. Bombing campaigns are very effective at making people feel uneasy on the street and force states to bring in draconian measures that affect civil liberties etc. and of course theres a likelihood it will lead to fatalities. Arson on unoccupied buildings and pissing around with railways and communication systems is more about disrupting capitalism than scaring the fuck out of everyone with possible fatalities.


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 28, 2013)

I'm wondering if any of the recent firebomb attacks on mosques have been described as terrorism. They're clearly political acts of arson.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 28, 2013)

> Fire services bought in a special pump from Wales to deliver extra water to the training centre, which was set to be utilised by three police forces from next year.


 
Welsh water on Somerset soil? This is getting murky. 


edit: though the pump can do proper water too i see.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Aug 28, 2013)

Citizen66 said:


> I'm wondering if any of the recent firebomb attacks on mosques have been described as terrorism. They're clearly political acts of arson.


 

I'm sure they have been called acts of terrorism recently.


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 28, 2013)

Mr.Bishie said:


> I'm sure they have been called acts of terrorism recently.



I wonder why then. Although I guess it depends whether they're occupied at the time. Or whether politics + arson = terrorism.


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 28, 2013)

Well 'counter-terror' police investigated this one:

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/crim...ars-firebomb-is-woolwich-revenge-8645356.html


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Aug 28, 2013)

Citizen66 said:


> I wonder why then. Although I guess it depends whether they're occupied at the time. Or whether politics + arson = terrorism.


 

Burning down a fur shop would be seen as political arson - fire bombing a mosque with arson intent (with people inside) would be an act of terrorising. Or summat close to that anyway


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 28, 2013)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Burning down a fur shop would be seen as political arson - fire bombing a mosque with arson intent (with people inside) would be an act of terrorising. Or summat close to that anyway



So burning down a building site with political intent isn't terrorism?


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Aug 28, 2013)

Citizen66 said:


> So burning down a building site with political intent isn't terrorism?


 

The state can define it how it wants to at the end of the day. But no, I'd like to think not.


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 28, 2013)

It wasn't terrorism back in 1973:

http://www.theguardian.com/theguardian/2013/aug/07/wales-arson-attacks-plaid-cymru


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 28, 2013)

Although firebombing a mosque is back to knocking public confidence again.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Aug 28, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Welsh water on Somerset soil? This is getting murky.
> 
> 
> edit: though the pump can do proper water too i see.


Perhaps the whole thing is a false flag by Welsh Security Services...


----------



## DaveCinzano (Aug 28, 2013)

The firearms centre is one of four building projects being undertaken by the Blue Light Partnership under a £129 million PFI (Private Finance Initiative) for the Avon & Somerset Constabulary.

As well as the Black Rock Quarry site, there will be three 'custody and crime investigation centres' (AKA big police stations), which will be sited in north Bristol (90 Gloucester Road), Keynsham (Ashmead Road) and Bridgwater (Express Park - also acting as Operations Base for Somerset), and collectively offer bed-and-board to guests in 132 separate rooms.

http://bluelightpartnership.co.uk/
http://asp-accommodation-programme.info/our-plans/

The WhatDoTheyKnow Freedom of Information request site is handy for tracking stuff about this, especially users like Dave Orr - eg https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/101509/response/257232/attach/html/2/Gateway 3 Interim Report redacted version.pdf.html


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 28, 2013)

Citizen66 said:


> I wonder why then. Although I guess it depends whether they're occupied at the time. Or whether politics + arson = terrorism.


 

Terrorism = whatever the state says it is. I'm sure there are many other definitions but that's the only one that has any relevance in the real world these days.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Aug 28, 2013)

At last the Mail's pulled its finger out, and after the _Post_ stole everyone's thunder by posting the communiqué in its entirety, Wheeler patched together some old blog posts and BIM articles for his _C4 News_ piece, Shiv went offroad for the _Grauniad_, where was left for them to go?

Well, in DacreLand, they're all meline groovy:



> *Anti-badger cull group claim they torched £16m police firing range which burned to the ground*



Oh, and:



> ACAB is an anti-police acronym often integrated into prison tattoos and used by skinheads and football hooligans.


 
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ed-16m-police-firing-range-burned-ground.html


----------



## LiamO (Aug 28, 2013)

.


----------



## free spirit (Aug 28, 2013)

lazyhack said:


> Of course it is terrorism, if you want to argue whether or not its supportable that's fine, but as a series of crimes they're terrorist actions.
> 
> At least dissident republicans are less moralistic about their actions and how you refer to them, anarchist remain an overly sensitive bunch of souls.


 
only under tony blair's bullshit definition of terrorism that includes pretty much any form of politically motivated property damage as terrorism.

Under the common understanding of the word, it's nothing of the sort - nobody has been terrorised, nobody has been hurt, nothing other than a few bank balances of corporations or state agencies have actually been damaged*.

A few people have been inconvenienced - that does not amount to terrorism, and you saying it does in the press simply helps to justify the government position on redefining terrorism to allow them to use the most draconian legislation against anyone who protests using methods that are a bit more confrontational than A-B marches.

This should be treated as criminal damage / arson, nothing more - why does it justify the potential of extended periods of detention without trial on arrest, and all the powers granted for dealing with actual terrorists who aim to blow as many people up as they can just because the motivation is political?



* well, maybe a fair few subbies who risked leaving their tools on site overnight

ps this is a post against the misuse of the anti-terrorism legislation, and it's justification in the public mindset through articles and headlines like yours, rather than a post in support of these actions specifically. Property damage is not the same as deliberately setting out to kill and maim people, and this difference should be clearly spelled out at all opportunities by anyone in the press who likes to think of themselves as not being part of the problem / different to the daily mail hacks IMO.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 28, 2013)

free spirit said:


> Property damage is not the same as deliberately setting out to kill and maim people...


 

No it is not, and anyone pondering the merits or otherwise of these actions should bear in mind that the building targeted was intended to train people to use weapons which _do _maim and kill people. It makes more sense to me to see this as an action against violence rather than as a violent action.

e2a: That doesn't necessarily mean it wasn't a daft thing to do from a tactical, political or any other standpoint. I really haven't made up my mind tbh, but I have to admit that pictures of a police weapons training centre going up in flames do give me a warm fuzzy feeling inside.


----------



## Delroy Booth (Aug 29, 2013)

lazyhack said:


> Of course it is terrorism, if you want to argue whether or not its supportable that's fine, but as a series of crimes they're terrorist actions.
> 
> At least dissident republicans are less moralistic about their actions and how you refer to them, anarchist remain an overly sensitive bunch of souls.


 
Were the Luddites and Swing rioters terrorists too? If you were reporting on something like that in a modern context would you use the word terrorism to describe them? Not that I'd favourably compare the IAF to the Luddites I hasten to add...

I've always thought of terrorism distinct from political violence or vandalism in that it attempts to carry out political change by terrifying the population with indiscriminate and spectacular acts of violence, often direcly against civilians. Creating that mass panic and fear is the goal, and the violence is a means to that end. Some types of political violence might be terrifying and spectacular but they are the by-product, the aim might be something else. I know that's abit of an arbitrary two-way split, there's obviously a crossover and they're not exclusive at all, but that's how I tend to differentiate how and when to use the word terrorist.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Aug 29, 2013)

lol at the Daily Mail using the arson attack as an excuse to have a go at 'Stop the Cull' with a bit of guilt by association.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 29, 2013)

lazyhack said:


> Is the IAF not an anarchist terror network? What would you call a group of people operating with unity of purpose to carry out bombings across several countries? Or do you just think they don't exist?


 
1) The IAF is an anarchist network.
2) Some purported members of this network have claimed responsibility for various explosions, fires and vandalism of zoos.
3) There's a big difference between claiming responsibility and carrying out acts of terror.

These publicity-hungry muppets love people like you, because in your haste you elide all the above in favour of a striking headline and a sensationalist story.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 29, 2013)

lazyhack said:


> What would you call a group of people operating with unity of purpose to carry out bombings across several countries?


a GOVERNMENT

see for example david cameron's record of bombing e.g. libya and wanting to bomb e.g. syria


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 29, 2013)

Citizen66 said:


> Is it a 'branch' though? Or just a name that anyone can set up under and run with?
> 
> Jon-of-arc


 
A franchise with no franchise fees.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 29, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Amazing the person who either wrote or allowed 'anarchist terror network" and ' anarchist cell' to go under his name accuses people who think this is shit of ...wait for it...moralism. Instead of the pure neutral objective stuff that presents 'anarchist terror network" and ' anarchist cell' .


 
Do you reckon he'll do a Penny, and blame the sub?


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 29, 2013)

if its a cell surely it has to operate under that cell structure of 4-6 man groups with only one in each knowing one in other, cos otherwise you are just saying 'cell' cos it sounds clancy


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 29, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> if its a cell surely it has to operate under that cell structure of 4-6 man groups with only one in each knowing one in other, cos otherwise you are just saying 'cell' cos it sounds clancy


or to give the impression it is operating in a cell or maybe it's just where they want the anarchists to end up


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 29, 2013)

DotCommunist said:
			
		

> if its a cell surely it has to operate under that cell structure of 4-6 man groups with only one in each knowing one in other, cos otherwise you are just saying 'cell' cos it sounds clancy



Cell structures work in hierarchical organisations.

Anarchism lol.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 29, 2013)

Citizen66 said:


> Cell structures work in hierarchical organisations.
> 
> Anarchism lol.


cell structures work in lots of organisations.


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 29, 2013)

Pickman's model said:
			
		

> cell structures work in lots of organisations.



Do they? I thought they were all controlled centrally. Anarchism = decentralisation. Happy to admit I'm wrong if that's not the case.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Aug 29, 2013)

Citizen66 said:


> Do they? I thought they were all controlled centrally. Anarchism = decentralisation. Happy to admit I'm wrong if that's not the case.



????


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 29, 2013)

Citizen66 said:


> Do they? I thought they were all controlled centrally. Anarchism = decentralisation. Happy to admit I'm wrong if that's not the case.


 
a cell structure does not imply or dictate a hierarchical structure. you can have a horizontal cell structure


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 29, 2013)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> ????



Why don't you furnish my mind with details instead of acting like it's something I ought to know?



Pickman's model said:


> a cell structure does not imply or dictate a hierarchical structure. you can have a horizontal cell structure



it's just the ones I'm familiar with then. Do you have examples of the ones you're on about? I thought the whole idea of a cell was to limit infiltration etc so planning is undertaken by a few individuals and only those involved in an action would get to hear about what pertains to their cell. Struggling to see how that operates without hierarchy.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 29, 2013)

You get how things can be next to each other rather than on top of each other right?


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 29, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> You get how things can be next to each other rather than on top of each other right?



Not in a cell structure, no. Otherwise why have cells?


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 29, 2013)

What do you think cells are?


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 29, 2013)

Unless the cells are autonomous I suppose.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 29, 2013)

Look at the way these cells are next to each other:


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 29, 2013)

How do the cells communicate with each other?


----------



## love detective (Aug 29, 2013)

cell phone?


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 29, 2013)

Citizen66 said:


> How do the cells communicate with each other?


 
By direct order from above. This is one of the oddest conversations i've ever had on here.


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 29, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> By direct order from above. This is one of the oddest conversations i've ever had on here.



Well it's obviously a misunderstanding on my part. I thought the whole point of cells is that they're not necessarily aware of each other. But i guess it could just be activists splitting into smaller groups.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Aug 30, 2013)

Citizen66 said:


> Well it's obviously a misunderstanding on my part. I thought the whole point of cells is that they're not necessarily aware of each other. But i guess it could just be activists splitting into smaller groups.


 
They may not be aware of each other but that doesn't make it hierarchical.


----------



## dylanredefined (Aug 30, 2013)

Does terrorism ever work though? Bombing people into submission doesn't. Never worked on London. Certainly its effects were dubious
on Germany and Japan during ww2. North Vietnam  gave in true ,but, then went and invaded the south as soon as the US left so hardly a conclusive win.
   Serbia ? again other reasons can be given for them giving in other than bombing.
  If you want to kill people you don't like fair enough ,but, getting your way by bombing people till they do what you want does not seem to work.


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 30, 2013)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> They may not be aware of each other but that doesn't make it hierarchical.



I only know terrorist cells in the context of al quada or the IRA so was interested to learn of the non hierarchical ones.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 30, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> if its a cell surely it has to operate under that cell structure of 4-6 man groups with only one in each knowing one in other, cos otherwise you are just saying 'cell' cos it sounds clancy


 

This isn't 1880's Russia, things change. I would think a 'cell' was any small, autonomous group operating as part of a network of same. TBH though I doubt there's a network here so much as some people in Bristol borrowing a name some people in Italy use sometimes.

e2a: Perhaps 'self-contained' is a better desciption than 'autonomous' as many such cells will be dependant on orders from above.


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 30, 2013)

the cell structure isn't a doctrine that was developed in pre-revolutionary russia


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 30, 2013)

and it still works


----------



## TopCat (Aug 30, 2013)

dylanredefined said:


> Does terrorism ever work though? Bombing people into submission doesn't. Never worked on London. Certainly its effects were dubious
> on Germany and Japan during ww2. North Vietnam gave in true ,but, then went and invaded the south as soon as the US left so hardly a conclusive win.
> Serbia ? again other reasons can be given for them giving in other than bombing.
> If you want to kill people you don't like fair enough ,but, getting your way by bombing people till they do what you want does not seem to work.


 
Bombing the financial district of London certainly worked for the IRA.


----------



## JHE (Aug 30, 2013)

SpookyFrank said:


> TBH though I doubt there's a network here so much as some people in Bristol borrowing a name some people in Italy use sometimes.


 

You know how it is. You're down the Old England one evening. You've had about three gallons of Natch. You've all agreed that Jamie Oliver is a right "cunt". You've burbled on a bit about foxes and reminisced about hunt-sabbing. You've talked tearfully but bravely about freedom and you've whispered about how you think MI5 have bugged your stash. You passionately agree on how much you like badgers. You've shouted that the badger cull is, like, totally fascist. Someone says you should burn down some new police place out at Portishead. It's a fucking brilliant idea! You all cheer and drink more Natch.

The next evening you wake up with a stonking great hangover and hear that some bugger's actually gone and done it and sent some press release! Fuck! Fuck! Fuck! Old Bill's going to be, like, really angry and stuff.


----------



## dylanredefined (Aug 30, 2013)

TopCat said:


> Bombing the financial district of London certainly worked for the IRA.


 

 Is their a united Ireland then? As I'm pretty sure that's what they wanted?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 30, 2013)

JHE said:


> You know how it is. You're down the Old England one evening. You've had about three gallons of Natch. You've all agreed that Jamie Oliver is a right "cunt". You've burbled on a bit about foxes and reminisced about hunt-sabbing. You've talked tearfully but bravely about freedom and you've whispered about how you think MI5 have bugged your stash. You passionately agree on how much you like badgers. You've shouted that the badger cull is, like, totally fascist. Someone says you should burn down some new police place out at Portishead. It's a fucking brilliant idea! You all cheer and drink more Natch.
> 
> The next evening you wake up with a stonking great hangover and hear that some bugger's actually gone and done it and sent some press release! Fuck! Fuck! Fuck! Old Bill's going to be, like, really angry and stuff.


 

Yeah, I'm not convinced the press release was a great idea. And even it was a good idea to write one, it would have been a better idea to write one that wasn't shit.


----------



## bamalama (Aug 30, 2013)

dylanredefined said:


> Is their a united Ireland then? As I'm pretty sure that's what they wanted?


"Tell ye what lads lets bomb the financial district in london...that'll get us what we want..."


----------



## dylanredefined (Aug 30, 2013)

bamalama said:


> "Tell ye what lads lets bomb the financial district in london...that'll get us what we want..."


 

 If they had waited a few years they would have been hailed as heros  by everyone


----------



## DaveCinzano (Aug 30, 2013)

Now a Barclay's has supposedly been firebombed.

Not sure some candles and Camping Gaz in Brislington is worth 3,300 words of Me And My Spoons though.


----------



## JHE (Aug 30, 2013)

They do not indicate how successful the "simple firebomb" was.  I cannot find any other mention of this action via Google.  Can we infer it was a flop?


----------



## kenny g (Aug 30, 2013)

They make the original AB communique's look like masterpieces of brevity. The perps  need to do some heavy editing to stop looking like  fruit cakes. But then again I  suspect that whoever is up to this is most definitely on the batten berg continuum.


----------



## kenny g (Aug 30, 2013)

JHE said:


> They do not indicate how successful the "simple firebomb" was. I cannot find any other mention of this action via Google. Can we infer it was a flop?


 

0 out of 5 for internet research :- 

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=barclays+fire+bristol 

http://www.thisisbristol.co.uk/crew...tory-19727570-detail/story.html#axzz2dUAmnlKq 

http://www.bristolpost.co.uk/breaks-Brislington-bank/story-19721603-detail/story.html


----------



## JHE (Aug 30, 2013)

Ta




> The blaze caused minor damage to an office at the rear of the bank, as well as damage to the exterior.


 
OK, not a complete flop, just a bit of a flop.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 13, 2013)

Police cracking down on Bristol rioters and extremists



> POLICE are set to crackdown on rioters and extremists in Bristol and are monitoring several potentially dangerous groups.
> 
> They are understood to have launched a series of operations to gather intelligence about subversive organisations.



This is the report (pdf) to the council meeting this tuedsay gone:



> Within the last two years there have been a variety of incidents ranging from large scale public disorder to high value criminal damage and Arson attacks on associated businesses and the wider communications network. A number of active squat premises are currently being managed by the Bristol districts and there have been recent successes in working with landlords and local partners to force evictions and identify the associated levels of anti-social behaviour and the impact of such locations on local communities. There are currently ‘live’ operations being managed to develop the intelligence picture and identify opportunities for further disruption against identified DE criminals operating within Avon and Somerset


----------



## el-ahrairah (Sep 13, 2013)

can we expect a load of undercovers to descend upon bristol?


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 13, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Police cracking down on Bristol rioters and extremists



http://www.bristolpost.co.uk/Police...s-extremists/story-19789792-detail/story.html


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 13, 2013)

Frig, i forgot to include the link to the story - well spotted!


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 13, 2013)

el-ahrairah said:


> can we expect a load of undercovers to descend upon bristol?


Descend?


----------



## el-ahrairah (Sep 13, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Descend?


 
already there?


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 13, 2013)

Oh yes.


----------



## Dogsauce (Sep 13, 2013)

False flag bullshit to deflect criticism of the whole Mark Kennedy nonsense? *adjusts tinfoil hat*


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 13, 2013)

Dogsauce said:


> False flag bullshit to deflect criticism of the whole Mark Kennedy nonsense? *adjusts tinfoil hat*


Sometimes what seem to be bad political stunts really are just bad political stunts.


----------



## DrRingDing (Sep 13, 2013)

el-ahrairah said:


> can we expect a load of undercovers to descend upon bristol?



Already there by the sounds of it.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Sep 13, 2013)

Have there recently been lots of new customers in certain bookshops with nice shiny black shoes?


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 14, 2013)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> Have there recently been lots of new customers in certain bookshops with nice shiny black shoes?


The big giveaway would be (paying) customers at all 

Well, that and effective stock control.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Sep 14, 2013)

Having now watched Peaky Blinders I'm imagining Sam Neil sending a pretty Irish girl in to volunteer behind the counter and do a human beatbox once a week


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 14, 2013)

and empty the spitoons obvs


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Sep 14, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> and empty the spitoons obvs



the 21st century equivelant is delete the cookies on the store "internet" corner at the end of the day.


----------



## emanymton (Sep 14, 2013)

DaveCinzano said:


> http://www.bristolpost.co.uk/Police...s-extremists/story-19789792-detail/story.html


'Domestic extremism' fucks sake. 

Oh and what a horrible website.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 7, 2014)

The sillies are back. With an action that doesn't resonate and a communique that only talks of themselves - which they call _solidarity_.


----------



## fractionMan (Jan 7, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> The sillies are back. With an action that doesn't resonate and a communique that only talks of themselves - which they call _solidarity_.



I've only got a couple of paragraphs in and No argument put forward other than "they're the man" (Vinci) and "it's got uranium or something bad mkay".  Therefore attempt to blow up university building they built.  Because it's science and that's bad too.  Or something.


----------



## 8ball (Jan 7, 2014)

fractionMan said:


> I've only got a couple of paragraphs in and No argument put forward other than "they're the man" and "it's got uranium or something bad mkay".


 
When I see the word 'vivisection' I react in pretty much the same way as when I see the word 'allopathic', or 'Islamofascist'.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 7, 2014)

fractionMan said:


> I've only got a couple of paragraphs in and No argument put forward other than "they're the man" (Vinci) and "it's got uranium or something bad mkay".  Therefore attempt to blow up university building they built.  Because it's science and that's bad too.  Or something.


if you get to the end they mention the unfortunate sebastian oversluij, and say he died at the end of 2012. they're only a year out.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 7, 2014)

8ball said:


> When I see the word 'vivisection' I react in pretty much the same way as when I see the word 'allopathic', or 'Islamofascist'.


what, you:

a) vomit?

b) shit yourself?

c) reach for a pistol?

or

d) all of the above?


----------



## fractionMan (Jan 7, 2014)

Fucking luddites.


> The logic of these kind of sciences has, as its primary goal, attempted control over everything.



Disingenuous luddites at that.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 7, 2014)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> Having now watched Peaky Blinders I'm imagining Sam Neil sending a pretty Irish girl in to volunteer behind the counter and do a human beatbox once a week


for some reason i always thought of them as the 'pesky blinders'


----------



## 8ball (Jan 7, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> what, you:
> 
> a) vomit?
> 
> ...


 
c) would be satisfying if the perpetrator was at hand and I actually had access to a pistol.

One of an increasing number of words, actually.  'Feminazi' and 'racialist' being but two.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 7, 2014)

8ball said:


> c) would be satisfying if the perpetrator was at hand and I actually had access to a pistol.
> 
> One of an increasing number of words, actually.  'Feminazi' and 'racialist' being but two.


where do you stand on intersectionality?


----------



## cesare (Jan 7, 2014)

All a bit ELF innit


----------



## fractionMan (Jan 7, 2014)

cesare said:


> All a bit ELF innit



Indymedia stopped having anything on it other than animal liberation nutters ages ago.  I've not looked at it in years.

That said, it does look like it's not solely animal based at the moment.  So am probably wrong about that.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 7, 2014)

cesare said:


> All a bit ELF innit


more of an emf man myself.


----------



## fractionMan (Jan 7, 2014)

KLF all the way.  Fight?


----------



## 8ball (Jan 7, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> where do you stand on intersectionality?


 
It kind of falls under a different category.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 7, 2014)

fractionMan said:


> KLF all the way.  Fight?


----------



## cesare (Jan 7, 2014)

fractionMan said:


> Indymedia stopped having anything on it other than animal liberation nutters ages ago.  I've not looked at it in years.
> 
> That said, it does look like it's not solely animal based at the moment.  So am probably wrong about that.


Earth Liberation Front's part and parcel of the animal lib stuff though?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 7, 2014)

cesare said:


> Earth Liberation Front's part and parcel of the animal lib stuff though?



I haven't seen anything attributed to ELF in a long while, not in the UK at least. I don't think it was ever an actual organisation, just a name people chose to use sometimes while doing certain things. It's been largely replaced by Earth First in that respect.


----------



## chilango (Jan 7, 2014)

cesare said:


> Earth Liberation Front's part and parcel of the animal lib stuff though?



no they're not. or at least weren't.


----------



## cesare (Jan 7, 2014)

SpookyFrank said:


> I haven't seen anything attributed to ELF in a long while, not in the UK at least. I don't think it was ever an actual organisation, just a name people chose to use sometimes while doing certain things. It's been largely replaced by Earth First in that respect.


Ah, ok, cheers. I don't know anything much about it, but it sounded like that whole deep ecology, green anarchism malarkey.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 7, 2014)

cesare said:


> ...but it sounded like that whole deep ecology, green anarchism malarkey.



I think there was probably a lot of that involved. ELF was an American thing mostly I think, and green anarchism is a much bigger deal over there.


----------



## chilango (Jan 7, 2014)

SpookyFrank said:


> I haven't seen anything attributed to ELF in a long while, not in the UK at least. I don't think it was ever an actual organisation, just a name people chose to use sometimes while doing certain things. It's been largely replaced by Earth First in that respect.



that's not really true. more on this when i get home.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 7, 2014)

chilango said:


> that's not really true. more on this when i get home.



I don't know a lot about it really. I've generally been more concerned with getting stuff done than worrying what initials to spray paint on it afterwards.

Direct action should be exactly that, direct. It's effectiveness shouldn't depend on media attention or public awareness or any of that.

e2a: Just read this post back. I sound pretty up myself don't I? There's a definite ego problem in activism, a condition from which I am clearly not immune


----------



## fractionMan (Jan 7, 2014)

cesare said:


> Earth Liberation Front's part and parcel of the animal lib stuff though?



Ah, I'd not heard of that lot.  Sounds about right.


----------



## fractionMan (Jan 7, 2014)

Wow, they've already removed my comment 

Sensitive bunch.


----------



## fractionMan (Jan 7, 2014)

wow, there's some real gems on there at the moment.

*deep breath*

The theory of the oppressive primacy of digital totalitarianism in the political system of the capitalist economy argues that the when capitalist globalisation takes a totalitarian turn the digital totalitarianism it brings about will obtain an oppressive position overruling even the system´s economic interests, and that this becomes most visible not so much in the totalitarian democratic state (i.e. the state which has turned the two words into synonyms) itself because it overshadows every sign of life there, but in the mathematics of international relations between states. 

phew.


----------



## mk12 (Jan 7, 2014)

fractionMan said:


> The theory of the oppressive primacy of digital totalitarianism in the political system of the capitalist economy argues that the when capitalist globalisation takes a totalitarian turn the digital totalitarianism it brings about will obtain an oppressive position overruling even the system´s economic interests, and that this becomes most visible not so much in the totalitarian democratic state (i.e. the state which has turned the two words into synonyms) itself because it overshadows every sign of life there, but in the mathematics of international relations between states.


 
I overhead something similar expressed at my local last night actually.


----------



## chilango (Jan 7, 2014)

Okay, on the Earth Liberation Front.

I won't bore you all with a potted history, the Wikipedia entry does a good enough job.

But as far as their connections with EF! go they were initially a "flag of convenience" for some in EF! To carry out acts of sabotage that EF! Itself couldn't or wouldn't. 

There was more to it than that of course. Many EF!ers carried out sabotage regardless without using the ELF as cover, and activism (both overt and covert) was not the sole preserve of EF! Many within the movements developed something of an antipathy towards EF! and the trend in some quarters to lump all Eco-direct action under its umbrella.

At the same time not all ELFers had anything to do with EF! 

Meanwhile the ALF IME generally didn't think much of the ELF and kept their distance in the main. The majority of overtures were one way. That didn't stop bother the state/media and the likes of green anarchist trying to link the two groups.

Initially it was Green Anarchist and it's periphery that perpetuated the idea of an ELF ( anyone remember the one off zine Terra-ist?  For example) but soon with the rapid growth of the Eco direction scene it became more of a real thing, however ephemeral...


I'm only talking about the "second wave" ELF (from around 93 onwards when it took on a life of its own away from GA fantasy) n the UK here. I don't know as much about the initial "group" supposedly formed in 92 nor any newer variants post Seattle. The USA is a whole other kettle of fish entirely too.

There does appear to be some use of the name amongst the same circles as the informal anarchists. A 3rd wave of the ELF perhaps?

Was it ever an actual organisation? Not really, they did attempt to replicate some of the more official structures of the ALF with press offices and prisoner support groups etc. but IME was more of an ad hoc flag of convenience for a small number of affinity groups and during particular struggles as and when.

Hth.  Obvs this just what I saw at the time, others experiences may differ...


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 7, 2014)

fractionMan said:


> wow, there's some real gems on there at the moment.
> 
> *deep breath*
> 
> ...


 
haha one of those where you just think - just stop. just stop talking


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 7, 2014)

**


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 7, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> The sillies are back. With an action that doesn't resonate and a communique that only talks of themselves - which they call _solidarity_.



Yeshua H. Fuckpig!!! 
If there's one thing I hate, it's communiques that read like Dave fucking Spart wrote them!!! 
They're also missing the extent of the remit of "synthetic biology" in favour of focusing purely on GM and pharma, that kind of misses a lot of points w/r/t advances in projects to create replacement organs etc.

As for the little exercise in the final paragraphs of giving a bit of a shout out to protests and protesters they supposedly respect, does it smell to anyone else like they're trying to associate themselves and their name with those who are *genuine?

*In case anyone is wondering, I don't think these people are genuine, I think they're dilettantes who care about their actions, not about who their actions affect.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 7, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> more of an emf man myself.




You're unbelievable.


----------



## 8ball (Jan 7, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> *In case anyone is wondering, I don't think these people are genuine, I think they're dilettantes who care about their actions, not about who their actions affect.


 
'Dilettante' is giving them way too much credit.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 7, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> The sillies are back. With an action that doesn't resonate and a communique that only talks of themselves - which they call _solidarity_.



As both an anarchist and a biologist, I consider their choice of target both bizarre and idiotic.


----------



## free spirit (Jan 7, 2014)

out of all the targets on offer, they chose to attack a building firm for daring to build a new biology department for a university.

we've clearly got some tactical geniuses at work here.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Feb 13, 2014)

I imagine Brian will swing by soon, he's just tweeted this:


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 13, 2014)

free spirit said:


> out of all the targets on offer, they chose to attack a building firm for daring to build a new biology department for a university.
> 
> we've clearly got some tactical geniuses at work here.


if it worked for the campaign against hls...


----------



## el-ahrairah (Feb 13, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> more of an emf man myself.




have you heard Killdozer's cover of that.  fucking amazing.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 13, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> I imagine Brian will swing by soon, he's just tweeted this:


Brian does his weekly google sweep. Must be something i can use? You're a bit shit whelan.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Feb 13, 2014)

http://www.channel4.com/news/bristol-iaf-royal-marines-reserve-arson-attack-anarchists


----------



## DaveCinzano (Feb 13, 2014)

Wonder if this will be thrown in as part of a job lot:

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/feb/13/suspicious-packages-found-army-career-offices


----------



## likesfish (Feb 14, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> http://www.channel4.com/news/bristol-iaf-royal-marines-reserve-arson-attack-anarchists



A large white personnel carrier that will be a bus then?
 The fall revoultion began when the anarachist freedom fighters set fire to a bus 

I suppose the struggle has to start somewhere


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 14, 2014)

likesfish said:


> A large white personnel carrier that will be a bus then?
> The fall revoultion began when the anarachist freedom fighters set fire to a bus
> 
> I suppose the struggle has to start somewhere


with you it appears to begin by grappling with the intricacies of english spelling


----------



## treelover (Feb 14, 2014)

Pedants are us, not everyone is gifted with your literary skills, others may have disabilities.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 14, 2014)

treelover said:


> Pedants are us, not everyone is gifted with your literary skills, others may have disabilities.


shurely 'pedants are we'.

e2a: whatever you may think of likesfish i don't believe he needs the dubious support you offer.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jun 15, 2014)

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ur-mobile-phone-radio-transmission-masts.html

‘Bristol Unabomber’ LOL


----------



## Idris2002 (Jun 15, 2014)

likesfish said:


> A large white personnel carrier that will be a bus then?
> The fall revoultion began when the anarachist freedom fighters set fire to a bus
> 
> I suppose the struggle has to start somewhere



Fall Revo's not due 'til 2045. If we can hold on until then.


----------



## bubblesmcgrath (Jun 15, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> shurely 'pedants are we'.
> 
> e2a: whatever you may think of likesfish i don't believe he needs the dubious support you offer.




Aye shirly for shire...shure...sure....


----------



## bubblesmcgrath (Jun 15, 2014)

Why are they pissing about? 
Queenies birthday should have been gate crashed. .....


----------



## Idris2002 (Jun 15, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> shurely 'pedants are we'.
> 
> e2a: whatever you may think of likesfish i don't believe he needs the dubious support you offer.



Pedants are we,

Pedanting free!

Like the fish, in the sea.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 16, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ur-mobile-phone-radio-transmission-masts.html
> 
> ‘Bristol Unabomber’ LOL



The statement was the usual big-themselves-up bollocks, I see!


----------



## 8ball (Jun 16, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> Pedants are we,
> 
> Pedanting free!
> 
> Like the fish, in the sea.


 
That's so keen, darling.
It's greater than keen - it's _koogat_.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 4, 2014)

http://www.bristolpost.co.uk/Air-ca...chists-torch/story-22874098-detail/story.html


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 4, 2014)

This obv a follow up to the sea cadets hut terror of a decade ago.


----------



## 8ball (Sep 4, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> http://www.bristolpost.co.uk/Air-ca...chists-torch/story-22874098-detail/story.html


 
From their POV:

https://anarchymag.org/content/attack-army-cadet-base-bristol-uk


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 4, 2014)

8ball said:


> From their POV:
> 
> https://anarchymag.org/content/attack-army-cadet-base-bristol-uk


Why do I get a warning telling me not to visit the page?


----------



## 8ball (Sep 4, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> Why do I get a warning telling me not to visit the page?


 
Dodgy security certification.

Same content here.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 4, 2014)

Best of all is the _Post_ editorial by Mad Mike Norton, which builds up to this apoplectic climax:

_This newspaper would never advocate anarchism. But it does recognise the movement's proud history as a political force.


Real anarchists should be ashamed of this attack.


It was nothing more than thoughtless stupidity._​


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 4, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> This obv a follow up to the sea cadets hut terror of a decade ago.


First Sea Cadets, then Air Cadets... The Land Cadets must be shitting themselves


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 4, 2014)

In fact this is _worse than ISIS_ - they do this - but they at least try to keep the kids involved. This bristol lot are putting kids off getting active in their communities.


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 4, 2014)

Who runs the cadets then? I assumed it was some filter org to direct kids towards a career in the services but that report suggests its entirely self funded (and a bit skint) which suggests volunteering by ex military / jingoistic types?


----------



## fractionMan (Sep 4, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> http://www.bristolpost.co.uk/Air-ca...chists-torch/story-22874098-detail/story.html



Fucking hell.  really, I mean REALLY?

Forward the revolution. Free south nowheresville from the brutal oppression of the Girl Guides and their capitalistic cupcake sale!


----------



## cantsin (Sep 4, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> http://www.bristolpost.co.uk/Air-ca...chists-torch/story-22874098-detail/story.html



""We were planning in the long-term to replace it..." 

(insurance job)

(edit : just seen the claiming piece - apols to the sad looking cadets in the photo etc)


----------



## likesfish (Sep 4, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> Who runs the cadets then? I assumed it was some filter org to direct kids towards a career in the services but that report suggests its entirely self funded (and a bit skint) which suggests volunteering by ex military / jingoistic types?



The army cadets air cadets and sea cadets are funded by the Mod but as a recruiting tool they frankly are a bit pants number of recruits divided by cash and time spent on cadets the return is risable. There are also independant cadet units around the place with various odd historys.
   Bit like boxing clubs appeal to kids who wouldnt be seen dead in a youth club and provide focus life skills team work postive role models  etc etc carefully camoflauged by camoflauge and guns  also as subsidized by the Mod cheap as you only have to supply boots and a week lomg camp is less than fifty quid.

Various people want to take away the camoflauge and guns forgetting thats what attracts the kids the good stuff happens because you've got kids involved with out the warry bit they wouldnt turn up.


----------



## chilango (Sep 4, 2014)

Surely Insurrectionists should be encouraging kids to gain all the military skills they can get their hands on?


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 4, 2014)

chilango said:


> Surely Insurrectionists should be encouraging kids to gain all the military skills they can get their hands on?


not all kids - i'd have thought people who join the cadets rule themselves out by allying themselves with the forces of the crown.


----------



## chilango (Sep 4, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> not all kids - i'd have thought people who join the cadets rule themselves out by allying themselves with the forces of the crown.



Liberal!


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 4, 2014)

chilango said:


> Liberal!


i would indeed be liberal with arms training


----------



## likesfish (Sep 4, 2014)

I hard,y think cadets = useful mlitary training apart from the ones we took on the grenade range!

 Slight misunderstanding they were meant to go on the grenade range and throw dummy grenades basicly lumps of steel a rather pointless activity rather than live ones

Oops kids loved it though


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## NoXion (Sep 4, 2014)

I was in the Army Cadets, fucking loved it, especially being in the shooting team! Was then and still am a communist though, so this idea that the ACF is some kind of sinister brainwashing operation is complete bollocks in my (big, red) book.


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## likesfish (Sep 4, 2014)

The ACF is probably ment to be a sinister brain washing organisation but given the budget and staff  an enthusasim for shooting and fond memorys are about


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## Spanky Longhorn (Sep 4, 2014)

likesfish said:


> The ACF is probably ment to be a sinister brain washing organisation but given the budget and staff  an enthusasim for shooting and fond memorys are about



Anarchist Communist Federation?


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## likesfish (Sep 5, 2014)

Army cadet force


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## SpookyFrank (Sep 5, 2014)

Oddly enough my time in the air cadets is what made me an anarchist. There's nothing like giving teenagers ranks which allow them to order other teenagers around to illustrate the fact that once people get power they become cunts.

I don't remember being brainwashed though. I was taught lots of useful skills like navigation, radio communications and first aid; all for something like 50p a week in subs that any family could afford. The instructors weren't military personnel, they were civillians who had volunteered specifically to do youth work. Nobody ever tried to convince us to join the military, in fact we got a chance to see a little of what life would be like if we did and that helped make up a lot of kids' minds that no, they definitely didn't want to join the military. 

These Bristol nutters did so well with that police training centre, the choice of target and the execution were both perfect; so why are they now taking their extremely vague anger out on youth groups? How much influence do you think a dozen teenagers from Bristol have on NATO policy? Stupid wankers


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## SpookyFrank (Sep 5, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> Who runs the cadets then? I assumed it was some filter org to direct kids towards a career in the services but that report suggests its entirely self funded (and a bit skint) which suggests volunteering by ex military / jingoistic types?



None of my instructors at ATC were ex-military. A couple of ex-police but if you didn't know that you wouldn't have guessed IYSWIM.


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## NoXion (Sep 5, 2014)

I think the Officer Commanding (can't remember his actual rank) at the summertime Annual Camps I went to was an ex-military type, but as I recall us Cadets only really saw him when the whole camp was on parade.

This might sound odd but I enjoyed drill almost as much as the other activities. Once the fun has worn off from farting and then attempting to look innocent (amongst various other antics which are hilarious when one is a teenager, or has the mind of one), I took an obscure sort of pride in carrying out drill maneuvers as precisely and correctly as I possibly could, while smartly turned out in either the dress uniform or the field uniform (although I preferred wearing the latter). I can certainly understand how such things can be an essential building block for establishing a good _esprit de corps_.

Now if only there was a way I could do such stuff as an adult without working for imperialist butchers...


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## kebabking (Sep 5, 2014)

NoXion said:


> ...Now if only there was a way I could do such stuff as an adult without working for imperialist butchers...



i believe the Woodcraft Folk are looking for instructors/non-hierarchical empowerment facilitators - Orange Corderoy flares and all the lentil quiche you could eat?

we have a similar oddness.


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## SpookyFrank (Sep 6, 2014)

NoXion said:


> This might sound odd but I enjoyed drill almost as much as the other activities. Once the fun has worn off from farting and then attempting to look innocent (amongst various other antics which are hilarious when one is a teenager, or has the mind of one), I took an obscure sort of pride in carrying out drill maneuvers as precisely and correctly as I possibly could, while smartly turned out in either the dress uniform or the field uniform (although I preferred wearing the latter). I can certainly understand how such things can be an essential building block for establishing a good _esprit de corps_.



As pointless as all the drill stuff was, and all that fussiness about sharp creases in your trousers and a shiny belt buckle, it did seem to encourage a degree of self-discipline. That's not an easy thing to instill in teenagers. 

Drill is also something that just about anyone can do if they put their minds to it, so kids who might not excel at the equally arbitrary hoop-jumping excercises they get given in school have a chance to be good at something that requires a different set of skills. My little brother, who has ADHD, used to love doing drill at cadets because it somehow forced his brain to focus in a way that most things didn't.


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## phildwyer (Sep 6, 2014)

SpookyFrank said:


> As pointless as all the drill stuff was, and all that fussiness about sharp creases in your trousers and a shiny belt buckle, it did seem to encourage a degree of self-discipline. That's not an easy thing to instill in teenagers.
> 
> Drill is also something that just about anyone can do if they put their minds to it, so kids who might not excel at the equally arbitrary hoop-jumping excercises they get given in school have a chance to be good at something that requires a different set of skills. My little brother, who has ADHD, used to love doing drill at cadets because it somehow forced his brain to focus in a way that most things didn't.



Isn´t it pretty much essential to ensure people will follow orders in battle?

I know that whenever armies have experimented with the abolition of drill, saluting and military discipline in general, the results have been disastrous.


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## MikeMcc (Sep 7, 2014)

Aye, it's entirely about following orders as a group.  With precision and practice it can look very, very good.   You can get similar results in a non-military environment too, various marching bands spring to mind.


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## likesfish (Sep 7, 2014)

Foot drill has its origins in napolonic battle drills which is rather obselete these days.
 Personally always hated it and the bullshit that went with it.
   Israelis dont do drill or any ironing or issue bayonets still manage to be massive cunts though

Are heroic bristol freedom fighters have probably run out of targets that arnt now covered in survelliance.


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## TopCat (Sep 7, 2014)

The Bus was an LDV Convoy. The engines don't die, they keep going while the rest of the vehicle deteriorates to the point of all passengers hating it. I surmise it was a insurance arson myself. I bet they buy a Merc Sprinter with the compo.


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## Geri (Sep 7, 2014)

TopCat said:


> The Bus was an LDV Convoy. The engines don't die, they keep going while the rest of the vehicle deteriorates to the point of all passengers hating it. I surmise it was a insurance arson myself. I bet they buy a Merc Sprinter with the compo.


 
Bit daft to torch a vehicle that is Third Party Only!


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## A380 (Sep 7, 2014)

kebabking said:


> i believe the Woodcraft Folk are looking for instructors/non-hierarchical empowerment facilitators - Orange Corderoy flares and all the lentil quiche you could eat?
> 
> we have a similar oddness.


I used to run a Woodcraft Group back in the 90s. I took them rifle shooting with a mate who was a member of a local range. Raised a few eyebrows from quiche eating colleagues but the kids loved it and and some of the older generation of leaders were very supportive.


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## spliff (Sep 22, 2014)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-29285280



> Inside Out West investigates this issue on BBC One at 19:30 BST and nationwide on the iPlayer for seven days thereafter.


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## DaveCinzano (Sep 22, 2014)

spliff said:


> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-29285280


Given the context (the Beeb interviewing a formerly ELF-connected person, greenscare, Operation Backfire, ag-gag, increasing push in the UK against political activism, redefining terrorism to include pretty much anything, the creation of ‘domestic extremism’, etc), this passage is rather interesting:

_...Det Ch Insp Bevan said the Bristol incidents could "potentially" be described as terrorism, but said: "I can't discount the fact that this could be a smokescreen for something else."

Asked if he was looking at a terrorist cell, he said "no".

"There is quite clear legislation that deals with terrorism. These are acts of criminal damage. Whatever the motive is, clearly I need to establish that," he said._​


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## DaveCinzano (Sep 22, 2014)

The _Indy_ churn:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...reme-anarchist-groups-police-say-9749316.html


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## rekil (Sep 25, 2014)

It's all fun and games until a bomb goes off early.



> Police are treating an explosion in Santiago’s Yungay neighborhood as an attempted terrorist attack after a man — identified as 29-year-old Sergio Guillermo Landskron Silva — was killed by the blast in the early hours of Thursday morning.
> 
> Eye witness reports describe how police prevented ambulance crews from aiding Sliva — who was wearing a ski mask — due to a suspicious device in his hand. A video shot by a bystander shows him lying on the ground as flames cover his body on the intersection of Erasmo Escala and Garcia Reyes at approximately 1 a.m.


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## el-ahrairah (Sep 25, 2014)

the anarchist version of premature ejaculation.


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## Nylock (Sep 25, 2014)

SpookyFrank said:


> Oddly enough my time in the air cadets is what made me an anarchist. There's nothing like giving teenagers ranks which allow them to order other teenagers around to illustrate the fact that once people get power they become cunts.
> 
> I don't remember being brainwashed though. I was taught lots of useful skills like navigation, radio communications and first aid; all for something like 50p a week in subs that any family could afford. The instructors weren't military personnel, they were civillians who had volunteered specifically to do youth work. Nobody ever tried to convince us to join the military, in fact we got a chance to see a little of what life would be like if we did and that helped make up a lot of kids' minds that no, they definitely didn't want to join the military.
> 
> These Bristol nutters did so well with that police training centre, the choice of target and the execution were both perfect; so why are they now taking their extremely vague anger out on youth groups? How much influence do you think a dozen teenagers from Bristol have on NATO policy? Stupid wankers


Being a bit of a loner when I was a teenager, I found the local ACF a bit of a lifesaver. The two years I was there helped bring me out of my shell and I did learn some useful skills. It helped that all the adults were ex-army so we did get as close an idea as was possible (for a bunch of 13-17 year-olds) of what it would be like being in the army. We had regular camps that cost nothing and because our drill hall was in the black mountains we were out and about on orienteering and fieldcraft skills as often as the welsh weather would allow (and sometimes when it was emphatically NOT allowing  ). 

I also got an early taste of what it was like being passed over for promotion and seeing less competent people put in command positions and then being made to sort out their mess whenever they fucked-up (which was often) and watching them take all the credit. Also having the 'fun' of going up against the junior army on night exercises armed only with clay SA80's while those fuckers had the real thing with blank rounds (what larks!) was a pretty convincing introduction to the terror of battle for a 15-year old. There were lots of other incidents where our activities occasionally bordered on the sadistic  It ultimately put me off going anywhere near the armed forces but i wouldn't have changed it for anything!


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## SpookyFrank (Sep 25, 2014)

Nylock said:


> I also got an early taste of what it was like being passed over for promotion and seeing less competent people put in command positions and then being made to sort out their mess whenever they fucked-up (which was often) and watching them take all the credit.



Yeah, that sounds very familliar.


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## butchersapron (Sep 25, 2014)

Nylock said:


> Being a bit of a loner when I was a teenager, I found the local ACF a bit of a lifesaver. The two years I was there helped bring me out of my shell and I did learn some useful skills. It helped that all the adults were ex-army so we did get as close an idea as was possible (for a bunch of 13-17 year-olds) of what it would be like being in the army. We had regular camps that cost nothing and because our drill hall was in the black mountains we were out and about on orienteering and fieldcraft skills as often as the welsh weather would allow (and sometimes when it was emphatically NOT allowing  ).
> 
> I also got an early taste of what it was like being passed over for promotion and seeing less competent people put in command positions and then being made to sort out their mess whenever they fucked-up (which was often) and watching them take all the credit. Also having the 'fun' of going up against the junior army on night exercises armed only with clay SA80's while those fuckers had the real thing with blank rounds (what larks!) was a pretty convincing introduction to the terror of battle for a 15-year old. There were lots of other incidents where our activities occasionally bordered on the sadistic  It ultimately put me off going anywhere near the armed forces but i wouldn't have changed it for anything!



ACF?


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## DotCommunist (Sep 25, 2014)

army cadet force shirely


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## Nylock (Sep 25, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> ACF?


Army Cadet Force.


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## butchersapron (Sep 25, 2014)

Nylock said:


> Army Cadet Force.


Not the anarchist communist federation - now called  anarchist federation, member of the IAF who the idiot communiques were first  pinned on then.  

Just to be clear.


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## Citizen66 (Sep 25, 2014)

Solidarity Aviation


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## Nylock (Sep 26, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Not the anarchist communist federation - now called  anarchist federation, member of the IAF who the idiot communiques were first  pinned on then.
> 
> Just to be clear.


Nope. Not that ACF i'm afraid...


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## Citizen66 (Dec 4, 2014)

Daily Mail reporting that  Bristol plod have put up a 10k reward for info on the whereabouts of someone for attacks on a communications mast and there's hints in there that they suspect he might be involved with all this other stuff. 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-Son-nuclear-expert-poet-wanted-sabotage.html


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## Geri (Dec 4, 2014)

Or she.


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## Citizen66 (Dec 4, 2014)

Geri said:


> Or she.





> * His* mother, Gill Garrett, 65, is a poet, writer and former lecturer.


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## Geri (Dec 4, 2014)

So you have convicted someone already.


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## Citizen66 (Dec 4, 2014)

Geri said:


> So you have convicted someone already.


Which part of "the police suspect he might be involved with this other stuff" equates to me saying he is in any way guilty?


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## DaveCinzano (Dec 4, 2014)

Appears to be largely a rewrite of the _Post_ article from Tuesday (which itself is a dodgy clippings file job, beefed up with the new reward appeal stuff).

http://www.bristolpost.co.uk/Police...hist-attacks/story-25034644-detail/story.html


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## JHE (Dec 4, 2014)

Wanted:  Huw Norfolk, 27, an anarchist known as Badger.


Solidarity demo Stokes Croft, Saturday:  "We are all Badgers!"


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## Citizen66 (Dec 4, 2014)

JHE said:


> Solidarity demo Stokes Croft, Saturday:  "We are all Badgers!"


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## DaveCinzano (Dec 4, 2014)

The Badger dragnet has been going on for more than 3 years. Presumably it's become a hot potato again because of the recent publication of the chronology document reminding all and sundry that A&SC still hadn't pinned the expensive PFI shooting range incineration on anyone.

The raids seem to be picking up, in frequency and intensity: arrest someone, use that to give their drum a spin; seize any electronic storage devices or computers or cameras, plus any books on vaguely political subjects (which get put into evidence bags labelled ‘ANARCHIST MANUALS’ - no joke!), closely examine (and/or photograph) address books, personal documents etc; then release arrestee without any charges. Then it's use the seized material to identify the next person to arrest, and repeat the process. And still no one charged.

To a reasonable person, this suggests either (i) that these mythical _Informal Anarchists _have a high level of discipline, forensic awareness and ideological commitment; (ii) that Bristol plod do not have much in the way of investigative abilities; or (iii) they're pissing around and regardless of whether they ever nab Spartacu-, sorry, Badger, they still get to fill their shelves with box files and box files of juicy intell and interrelational data on Thee Politikos.


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## likesfish (Dec 4, 2014)

This is probably beyond Bristol plods capability.
 If  the badger has  some mates with half a clue about cell struture safe houses etc he can stay on the run for a long time. Especially if plod are treating it as arson and petty crime.
 because nobody wants to justify this idiocy as terrorism so the big boys cant be arsed to get involved.
 If they managed to hurt people or do serious damage then things would change.
   He and his little pals can play their games fearing an agent of the state behind every blade of glass and drones in the air.
 When reality is a few bored dectatives with a list they are working through when nothing else more intresting  neds doing.


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## Dogsauce (Dec 4, 2014)

"Police believe Norfolk may not be in England or the UK and could possibly be in Europe or further afield."

Believed to have disappeared abroad.  Where have we seen this cover story before?  

Do the NETCU not tell the local plod who they have working for them?  How many kids has this one fathered?


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## Pickman's model (Dec 4, 2014)

Dogsauce said:


> "Police believe Norfolk may not be in England or the UK and could possibly be in Europe or further afield."
> 
> Believed to have disappeared abroad.  Where have we seen this cover story before?
> 
> Do the NETCU not tell the local plod who they have working for them?  How many kids has this one fathered?


the police have norfolking idea about geography


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## Pickman's model (Dec 4, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


>



Badgers


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## Citizen66 (Dec 4, 2014)

Boom tish


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## Louis MacNeice (Dec 4, 2014)

JHE said:


> Wanted:  Huw Norfolk, 27, an anarchist known as Badger.
> 
> 
> Solidarity demo Stokes Croft, Saturday:  "We are all Badgers!"


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## DaveCinzano (Dec 4, 2014)

Dogsauce said:


> "Police believe Norfolk may not be in England or the UK and could possibly be in Europe or further afield."
> 
> Believed to have disappeared abroad.  Where have we seen this cover story before?
> 
> Do the NETCU not tell the local plod who they have working for them?  How many kids has this one fathered?


NETCU was a prevention unit, liaising between police forces and the private sector, and it ceased to exist when it was combined with NPOIU and NDET into the National Domestic Extremism Unit (later NDEDIU) under Met control in 2011.

There is no evidence (that I am aware of) this man is or was a spycop, an agent provocateur, informer or anything else of that ilk. Not sure throwaway remarks like yours, which cost you nothing but have the potential to make things very complicated for others, are really that useful.


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## Dogsauce (Dec 4, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> Not sure throwaway remarks like yours, which cost you nothing but have the potential to make things very complicated for others, are really that useful.



I was just being facetious, people who know the guy will have a better feeling for their integrity.  The discharge tattoo is probably more attention to detail than the average undercover would manage tbh.

Having an absent suspect is of course very useful if you want to keep turning over people's homes, whether genuine or otherwise.


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## DaveCinzano (Dec 4, 2014)

Fair do's.


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## DaveCinzano (Dec 4, 2014)

Here's the original Indymedia report of the Park Row squat raid, which took place in the summer of 2011:

http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2011/08/483519.html


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## DaveCinzano (Dec 4, 2014)

Here's the _Since The Bristol Riots_ book which was published in November (set your communiquéphobia sensors to IGNORE):

http://personsunknown.noblogs.org/files/2014/11/Since-the-Bristol-riots-v2.pdf


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## DaveCinzano (Dec 4, 2014)

Badger's own October 2011 communiqué is on page 82-83 (pp89-90 in terms of actual PDF pages).



> ...Two months have now passed of successful evasion, and meanwhile the winds of insurgency still blow in many towns and moments – indeed, for many they started long before this summer...


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## ViolentPanda (Dec 4, 2014)

Geri said:


> So you have convicted someone already.



TBF, if your _nom de guerre _is "Badger", then you've already convicted yourself - of stupidity at best.


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## DaveCinzano (Dec 4, 2014)

Whereas calling yourself ‘Panda’ is an exemplar of genius.


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## Citizen66 (Dec 4, 2014)

There used to be a nightclub of questionable taste in Stockton called Cinzanos.


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## Pickman's model (Dec 4, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> There used to be a nightclub of questionable taste in Stockton called Cinzanos.


while royal doulton had a short-lived and hastily-withdrawn range of toilets under the cistern 66 marque.


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## Citizen66 (Dec 4, 2014)

Lovecraft is about right for you though.


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## likesfish (Dec 5, 2014)

...Two months have now passed of successful evasion, and meanwhile the winds of insurgency still blow in many towns and moments – indeed, for many they started long before this summer...


Its pretty easy to do that when you think your a daring urban gurrellia the reincartion of bader meinhoff and the forces of oppression see you as a crusty twat with a box of matches


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## seventh bullet (Dec 5, 2014)

I was expecting someone younger, like 14 or something.


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## JHE (Dec 5, 2014)

We are all badgers, voles, foxes, otters:  free anarcho-fauna.

We are the “lost kids” angry and disappointed by false promises, the “uncontrollable
youth” unsatisfied with the paltry futures offered to us, the “useless components”
who reject or are excluded anyway from wage-slavery or the “disruptive elements” who
fight to destroy it from within, the “minority of trouble-makers” within the
constructs of obedient-hierarchical-racist-patriarchal normality, the “hooded
rioters” within the constant revolt against all that and more. We are your children,
and those of your society. And it is time today for the components of that society
to decide if they will be the hand trying to stop us, or the hand lighting their own
conspiracy for self-determination.

Today we are here. Today we throw our rage and anarchy against the station that this
order would prescribe us: an open-ended contract to be locked in the cage of modern
living, of humiliating routine, withdrawn into quiet desperation despite all
distractions, cast into inexplicable loneliness, into inner exile from any greater
values, divorced from any connection to the Earth, walking commodities to be used
and discarded.

Each day, be sure that we are faced with constant battle as each individual must
strive to make their own path and decisions against the flow of the conformity and
submission demanded of us by the jailers of everyday life – if the revolution is not
here, truly it is nowhere. Let us live proud lives of rebellion and compassion,
reclamation and antagonism, poetry and fire.

So, in the midst of this incessant war underlying all in this world – I acknowledge
with a glad and thankful heart all who have ever stood next to me, with the rebels
wherever and whoever they are against the disguised violence that is passivity, the
disguised violence in the suppression of the hostilities and tensions around us that
urge to be realised. Here’s to those who make choices that in different ways break
out of line when everything in the dominant culture advises silence, assuring us of
their strength and feeding us poisoned whispers of our own powerlessness and
insignificance.

And of course as the clash continues and escalates with increasing recognition that
everything we desire lies beyond the ruin of their rule, the enemy will carry on
retaliating against those people with every vile method in their book: propaganda to
misrepresent our passions and aims; the loyal “opposition” of political parties and
unions presented as the democratically acceptable way we should amend our “extreme”
expressions to; the surveillance, infiltration and invasion of our friendship groups
and spaces; the arrest, interrogation and imprisonment of our comrades-in-struggle.
We don’t forget, and we don’t forgive.  

So there.


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## seventh bullet (Dec 5, 2014)

Fuck you, I won't tidy my room.


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## DaveCinzano (Dec 5, 2014)

Informal Anarchist Actions thread is thataway ----->


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## Tankus (Dec 5, 2014)

Badger meinhalf


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## ViolentPanda (Dec 5, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> Whereas calling yourself ‘Panda’ is an exemplar of genius.



It is, in comparison with calling yourself after something farmers like to bash to death.


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## ViolentPanda (Dec 5, 2014)

Tankus said:


> Badger meinhalf



I think that Badger Mooncalf is a bit more apt.


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