# Welsh Family Values



## William of Walworth (Jul 28, 2012)

AKA obsession?  

Can I ask for some help off Welsh posters, whether they're still living in Wales or not?

What is it with so many Welsh people/colleagues/in-street and in-pub randoms around here (SA area) and their (apparant)* utter* obsession with families families families, children, children children, and with all 37 of their immediate relatives living withing fifteen minutes drive of where they live????  (that's empirical perception)

Check local news on the half hour on BBC breakfast, and so often the lead story on the Welsh news is child and family related, more so, definitely, than the national part of that programme. Aslso, if you must, check the Swansea Evening Post if you can do so without being violently sick .... (that's media reflection)

This really, really isn't intended to be a thread about the merits and demerits as such of having children. Nor is this intended as an anti-Welsh thread, because I'm fully conscious that I'm a recent incomer (in 2008), formerly living for at least 25 years in London, with a whole lot still to get used to.

(Although prior to my London years I was brought up for 17 years in N Wales, as well And Debbie's been here for well over 20 years).

Also I'm well aware that there must surely be some (less urban?) parts of England and elsewhere whose family values are similar ...

But both Debbie and I (cat-carers of 4, very much non-parents (leave it at that, eh  ), with not a single one of our very few relatives living within 60 miles), do at times feel like weirdo freaks here for not being *remotely* interested in peoples' seemingly constant chatter about families and relatives and children.

In fact we feel like we're a nutty cultish minority in Swansea City centre sometimes ... and at BOTH of our work places, the chat about peoples relatives/children is _constant_ at times ... thank heaven for CAMRA-cult  based friends, many of whom have lifestyles similar to ours.

We're *much* in the minority though, and not just for not being lager-swillers ...

Help this recent immigrant understand folks! Am I misunderstanding or exaggerating? Is Wales, or this part of Wales, _really_ so family dominated as it looks to me? Ta ....


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## trampie (Jul 29, 2012)

We are tied to our mothers apron strings, that is why you don't find many large Welsh communities abroad like the Irish and Italians, we love our mammies and daddies and nans and grandpa's, haven't the Welsh got lots of surnames the same ?, the Welsh are a socially caring sharing type people, Welsh Laws hundreds of years ago in medieval times gave rights to women that others didn't have until recently, the Welsh would divide their land up after the death of the head of a family, elsewhere they would give it to the eldest son only, the question is, not why are the Welsh so family orientated but why isn't everyone else ?


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## wayward bob (Jul 29, 2012)

most local news (except in london, because of the larger/more mobile population) is more dominated by "smaller" stories, therefore more likely to be "child and family related" (whatever that means  i don't watch telly news).

and living in a _city_ that has a relatively strong local educational/employment opportunities means that adult children are less likely to move away than small towns/villages where you get a mix of people going into the family business and people getting the hell out of there as soon as they're physically/financially able.

and yes welsh families are often focussed around matriarchal figures. and i agree with "socially caring sharing type people" maybe that's cos their mams brought em up right 

maybe swansea is a particular case? it's where mr b's mum comes from and yes, most of her family still live there and she's the "weird one" because she moved 50 miles away, but she would still visit most weeks and when her kids moved 100 miles away she would still visit as often as she was able. i had a bit of a fight on my hands to help cut those apron strings when we first met. it was utterly bizarre from my perspective (family spread around europe, not massively keen on weddings so few opportunities to all get together).

also physical mobility must be different between different socio-economic groups: "working class" families im(limited)e tend to be less physically mobile than "middle class" families because e.g. mc kids often move a long way for university, which gives them a greater exposure to the opportunities available elsewhere and in turn gives them access to higher paying jobs which are more incentive to uproot than lower paying jobs.

i've no idea how the socio-economic status of welsh cities differs from those in different parts of britain, but swansea always struck me as more working class than cardiff for example, but maybe that's because the only bits i've really seen are in a particular area.

but also remember you've moved from a _massive_ city to a small one. i don't know if it's still usual/common for people to move out of london when they've had kids, but certainly having a large and mixed social circle *very few of whom* have kids is much more likely in london than in any smaller town imho. and when people have kids they're unsurprisingly likely to talk about them cos they're pretty all-consuming and tend to reduce your opportunities to have spare time interests/activities that don't involve them.


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## _angel_ (Jul 29, 2012)

It's not confined to Wales. On these estates people live on the same street as their mums, sisters, dads etc.
Now I come to think about it most of my in laws family live within the same square mile elsewhere in Yorkshire.
London is the unusual case.


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## Santino (Jul 29, 2012)

trampie said:


> We are tied to our mothers apron strings, that is why you don't find many large Welsh communities abroad like the Irish and Italians, we love our mammies and daddies and nans and grandpa's, haven't the Welsh got lots of surnames the same ?, the Welsh are a socially caring sharing type people, Welsh Laws hundreds of years ago in medieval times gave rights to women that others didn't have until recently, the Welsh would divide their land up after the death of the head of a family, elsewhere they would give it to the eldest son only, the question is, not why are the Welsh so family orientated but why isn't everyone else ?


Yeah, Italians don't think much of their mums. They're renowned for it.


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## butchersapron (Jul 29, 2012)

And the jews, eh trampie?


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## harpo (Jul 29, 2012)

_angel_ said:


> It's not confined to Wales. On these estates people live on the same street as their mums, sisters, dads etc.
> Now I come to think about it most of my in laws family live within the same square mile elsewhere in Yorkshire.
> London is the unusual case.


That also happens a lot in Liverpool.


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## Firky (Jul 29, 2012)

Keep it Welsh. Keep the blood pure.



_angel_ said:


> It's not confined to Wales. On these estates people live on the same street as their mums, sisters, dads etc.
> Now I come to think about it most of my in laws family live within the same square mile elsewhere in Yorkshire.
> London is the unusual case.


 
That's the case in parts of Newcastle and most pit towns and villages around here.

London is a country unto it's self, never stays the same for more than a generation.


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## DotCommunist (Jul 29, 2012)

trampie said:


> We are tied to our mothers apron strings, that is why you don't find many large Welsh communities abroad like the Irish and Italians, we love our mammies and daddies and nans and grandpa's, haven't the Welsh got lots of surnames the same ?, the Welsh are a socially caring sharing type people, Welsh Laws hundreds of years ago in medieval times gave rights to women that others didn't have until recently, the Welsh would divide their land up after the death of the head of a family, elsewhere they would give it to the eldest son only, the question is, not why are the Welsh so family orientated but why isn't everyone else ?


 

Is it cos the rest of us are gentically tories whereas when the doctor slaps a welsh newborn it starts wailing the internationale?


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## 8ball (Jul 29, 2012)

I think this a lot to do with leaving London (where a lot of people live until they want kids, then move away), rather than Wales.

Not even so much London, just that the further you get from the centre of a large city, the more people you will find who have lived there a long time, are more tied into the community, have relatives nearby etc.

I say that as a Welsh person living in Nottingham, btw.


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## Firky (Jul 29, 2012)

Probably your age as much as anything, I am almost thirty (lol) and a lot of people went to school with or are friends with seem to be getting married recently. In a few years time they'll be popping out bairns too.

It makes me really notice it when ordinarily I don't think I would, or really give it much thought.


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## Orang Utan (Jul 29, 2012)

You must be a bit of a weirdo to be so demonstrably uninterested in other people's lives


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## 8ball (Jul 29, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> You must be a bit of a weirdo to be so demonstrably uninterested in other people's lives


 
That seems a bit uncalled for.


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## wayward bob (Jul 29, 2012)

he's very specifically uninterested in their children, apparently.

i think he has to get over the fact that just because they may have made one lifestyle choice they shouldn't be surprised that others (the majority) haven't made the same choice.

(btw i'm not reading inability to have children in his post, which would understandably make such reminders difficult)


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## Orang Utan (Jul 29, 2012)

8ball said:


> That seems a bit uncalled for.


I was answering his question.


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## 8ball (Jul 29, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> I was answering his question.


 
Hmm - always hard to read tone when it's just text, but it seemed like you were happy to cast the first stone when you're hardly without your own eccentricities.

I left Wales to go to University, and I did find it kind of stifling the way everyone knows everything about everybody, but put it down to a city/non-city thing rather than anything to do with Wales.  It's 20 years now since I left and a bunch of peeps from school are holding a big party and have tracked me down via my sister (who went away for Uni but like most went back and lives within a couple of miles of my parents and her husband's parents).  Not sure whether I want to go...


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## geminisnake (Jul 29, 2012)

I am not welsh, nor have I ever lived there but I kinda get what William is on about from my various visits to Wales and from speaking to son about his stay there. And you don't seem to get a lot of welsh expats in mine & hubby's experience and he worked in the building trade(which is full of all sorts) for years. We have had chats about it before.
The welsh do seem to be more content to stay within their local area and are more close knit. As to whether this is a good thing or bad depends on the person I guess.
Me, I don't see my extended family from one year to the next and tbh it's what I'm used to, seems to be kinda traditional at least on my dads side.

Maybe it's got something to do with geography, this is what we've wondered before. Travelling before cars must have been a nightmare between the valleys.


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## wayward bob (Jul 29, 2012)

we do have cars now tho gem  and most of wales isn't the valleys. i've heard you have a few hills up your way too


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## Threshers_Flail (Jul 29, 2012)

I'm Welsh and I don't get to see hardly any of my extended family for months on end, although I do live in the bustling metropolis of Cardiff so that might be why. Also, the most tight knit family I have ever come across is my friends from London, and tbh I'm quite jealous of what she's got, proper "if Carlsberg did families" thing going on.


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## Orang Utan (Jul 29, 2012)

8ball said:


> Hmm - always hard to read tone when it's just text, but it seemed like you were happy to cast the first stone when you're hardly without your own eccentricities.
> .


WoW said he felt like a weirdo for being uninterested in the things friends get up to, like having families.
How could friends passing on their gene not be interesting? It seems a shame that talking about the their families seems to be dismissed as chatter. More than a little puzzling.


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## 8ball (Jul 29, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> WoW said he felt like a weirdo for being uninterested in the things friends get up to, like having families.
> How could friends passing on their gene not be interesting? It seems a shame that talking about the their families seems to be dismissed as chatter. More than a little puzzling.


 
Some people aren't that interested in the spawning habits of others and the resultant minutiae.
I don't think WoW was talking about close friends and family members - more like work colleagues etc.


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## _angel_ (Jul 29, 2012)

harpo said:


> That also happens a lot in Liverpool.


That's because it's normal behaviour. Middle class migration for work/ university is less normal in other parts of the country (not saying it doesn't still happen).


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## Clair De Lune (Jul 29, 2012)

People talk about people they love SHOCKER.
Stupid thread, tinged with prejudice. Start a thread about cockney cats ffs.


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## 8ball (Jul 29, 2012)

WoW - you have incurred the breeders' wrath and are condemned to a hairshirt for the rest of the year.


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## davesgcr (Jul 29, 2012)

Don't know - migration from Wales for economic reasons was endemic in the 1920 /1930 era "not dead , moved to Slough headstones for example) - born outside Swansea of "immigrant" stock (England and Holland in the 19thC) - not lived there since 1979 , and like Dylan Thomas love the idea of Wales but feel suffocated by "localism" - somewhere like London can give independant freedom and a "happy doing what you alone want in the crowd" , which you cant escape in West Wales.

I feel what you are getting at , but in some places , people would welcome this.

Seems not so intense in 1930's suburban St Albans , but family interests are less intense (due to migration etc - from all over the UK) , but strong enough.  (such that many conversations are related to this topic)


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## wayward bob (Jul 29, 2012)

@8ball i was fucking waiting or that word to turn up. prick


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## 8ball (Jul 29, 2012)

wayward bob said:


> @8ball i was fucking waiting or that word to turn up. prick


 
<dons hairshirt too>


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## wayward bob (Jul 29, 2012)

kindly cock off in it


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## Santino (Jul 29, 2012)

I'm London born and bred and I'm posting this from my mum's house.


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## 8ball (Jul 29, 2012)

wayward bob said:


> kindly cock off in it


 
As a non-breeder am I allowed to take offence at being told to go forth and multiply?


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## wayward bob (Jul 29, 2012)

now get your arse out and have a life, seeing as you're so keen on it


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## Orang Utan (Jul 29, 2012)

It's a shame to see people erecting unnecessary barriers. You are still a part of society, WoW, and so are people who choose to have families.


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## 8ball (Jul 29, 2012)

wayward bob said:


> now get your arse out and have a life, seeing as you're so keen on it


 
So there you go, WoW, it is all your fault that you find the breeders to be so insular and alienating. They are actually incredibly welcoming and full of warmth and love for others, whether they share their ways or not.


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## Orang Utan (Jul 29, 2012)

Most people are!


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## wayward bob (Jul 29, 2012)

8ball said:


> They are actually incredibly welcoming and full of warmth and love for others, whether they share their ways or not.


 
you _really_ don't wanna run into me when i'm not full of warmth and love believe me


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## Clair De Lune (Jul 29, 2012)




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## Clair De Lune (Jul 29, 2012)

I wish I lived near my brothers and sisters lol


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## Orang Utan (Jul 29, 2012)

Does the OP not find this thread fascinating?
http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/post-up-your-old-family-shots-here.143477/


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## wayward bob (Jul 29, 2012)

do _all_ english cats stick their tongues out?  enquiring minds want to know...


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## Orang Utan (Jul 29, 2012)

Or this one?
http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/self-indulgent-baby-thread.96974/


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## Clair De Lune (Jul 29, 2012)

wayward bob said:


> do _all_ english cats stick their tongues out?  enquiring minds want to know...


only if they left London for greener pastures. It leaves a funny taste in their mouths


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## Santino (Jul 29, 2012)

Did you know that most of us are descended from people who had children?


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## wayward bob (Jul 29, 2012)

this is the thing: moving somewhere that's friendly and has a strong community and then _bitching_ about it?  i imagine suggestions of anti-english racism are about to surface


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## Clair De Lune (Jul 29, 2012)

wayward bob said:


> this is the thing: moving somewhere that's friendly and has a strong community and then _bitching_ about it?  i imagine suggestions of anti-english racism are about to surface


 init. It's like one of us moving to London and starting a thread about how nobody will engage or even look at us on the tube. Stupid.


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## 8ball (Jul 29, 2012)

wayward bob said:


> this is the thing: moving somewhere that's friendly and has a strong community and then _bitching_ about it?  i imagine suggestions of anti-english racism are about to surface


 
'Community' isn't quite what WoW was talking about.  That's not how I read it, anyway.


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## wayward bob (Jul 29, 2012)

it might not have been what he was talking about but it _is_ what he was describing.

you really are asking to have arse handed to you on a plate aren't you


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## 8ball (Jul 29, 2012)

wayward bob said:


> it might not have been what he was talking about but it _is_ what he was describing.
> 
> you really are asking to have arse handed to you on a plate aren't you


 
Oh, do elaborate.


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## wayward bob (Jul 29, 2012)

cba


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## 8ball (Jul 29, 2012)

wayward bob said:


> cba


 
Spotted the truck-sized hole in your argument, did you?


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## wayward bob (Jul 29, 2012)




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## two sheds (Jul 29, 2012)

Clair De Lune said:


> init. It's like one of us moving to London and starting a thread about how nobody will engage or even look at us on the tube. Stupid.


 
Why *will* nobody even look at you on the tube, though?


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## 8ball (Jul 29, 2012)

two sheds said:


> Why *will* nobody even look at you on the tube, though?


 
It's fun to smile at people on the Tube - they very rarely get stabby.


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## Belushi (Jul 29, 2012)

two sheds said:


> Why *will* nobody even look at you on the tube, though?


 
Because we're usually knackered on our way to or from work and we decided ages ago that we're all a lot happier if we just ignore each other


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## wayward bob (Jul 29, 2012)

i'm gonna be one of those old ladies that gets chatting at bus stops and bores people rigid about their grandkids


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## 8ball (Jul 29, 2012)

The family next door has started their ritual evening bout of yelling, swearing and general psychological abuse. 

Apparently one of the kids is a 'fucking weirdo'...


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## two sheds (Jul 29, 2012)

8ball said:


> Apparently one of the kids is a 'fucking weirdo'...


 
Hereditary as I understand it.


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## two sheds (Jul 29, 2012)

Belushi said:


> Because we're usually knackered on our way to or from work and we decided ages ago that we're all a lot happier if we just ignore each other


 
I'd assumed to prevent passing on Visually Transmitted Diseases, shows how little i know.


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## spanglechick (Jul 29, 2012)

one of the things about involuntarily coming to terms with a childfree future, is having to cope with the fact that it's such a minority experience.  If you'd stayed in london, WoW, what would happen is that your mates would stop coming out so much, and then they'd move away.  

I'd much rather that at least I got to see my mates who had kids occasionally, rather than count the exodus of my lovely friends, year by year - making special arrangements to meet up once or twice a year, and know that it will just get worse until there are only a handful of us left.


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## 8ball (Jul 29, 2012)

Same thing happens if you have kids, though.

Sooner or later everyone dies or moves away.


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## spanglechick (Jul 29, 2012)

8ball said:


> Same thing happens if you have kids, though.
> 
> Sooner or later everyone dies or moves away.


i thought the whole content of this thread was inspired by the fact that in lots of provincial cities and towns, people don't move away?  and as for dying, yes... but not usually in their thirties and forties...


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## 8ball (Jul 29, 2012)

spanglechick said:


> i thought the whole content of this thread was inspired by the fact that in lots of provincial cities and towns, people don't move away? and as for dying, yes... but not usually in their thirties and forties...


 
Well, in the case of where I'm from, they moved away and then came back.  Mostly.


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## _angel_ (Jul 29, 2012)

wayward bob said:


> i'm gonna be one of those old ladies that gets chatting at bus stops and bores people rigid about their grandkids


I am more or less resigned to quite possibly never being a granny. Even tho I've got three boys. I'd say two of them are quite likely never to have kids and the third, well who knows but I can't really expect it!


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## xenon (Jul 29, 2012)

Think it's a class thing, rather than particularly Welsh. i.e. Where mobility, social or otherwise is restricted. You hear a lot of that sort of chat in parts of Bristol and Liverpool IME. In fact, any where there isn't a predominent transient community or relatively recent incomers. Not so much London, least I didn't grow up in Albert Square. Maybe like that in some areas. But then, London's a place where many peple move to. my family mostly came from Scotland, for example. I imagine the'rs a similar thing to what OP describes in the areas of Glasgow they left. Save the disruptive effect of economic displacement and migration.


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## ddraig (Jul 29, 2012)

no Hiraeth yet? 

mulling over a proper reply...


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## geminisnake (Jul 29, 2012)

two sheds said:


> Why *will* nobody even look at you on the tube, though?


 
People do sometimes look at each other and I quite enjoy smiling at people and even occasionally speaking, usually to a child. Sometimes you get a response from the parent but it does appear to confuse them though


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## Firky (Jul 29, 2012)

I knew this thread was gong to end up like this B-)


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## wayward bob (Jul 29, 2012)

the other thing - whether wow likes it or not - is that children very often *are* the glue that holds communities together. i've got to know most of my neighbours *through* having kids: whether that's them stopping to chat with you in the street when you have a small baby, or by meeting other parents at school. our school is the very model of a *community school* making links between all kinds of people we'd never have got to know otherwise. and we live in an area with a high transient population and a large number of recent immigrants.

we know all the shopkeepers because they know our kids, we bump into people we haven't seen in ages cos the kids are doing some show or other. and we've got to know our local area much better because they learn loads about it at school and go on all kinds of trips. it's dramatically widened my social circle, my experience and my understanding of other cultures.

what's not to like?


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## two sheds (Jul 29, 2012)

geminisnake said:


> People do sometimes look at each other and I quite enjoy smiling at people and even occasionally speaking, usually to a child. Sometimes you get a response from the parent but it does appear to confuse them though


 
I do too sometimes to adults but always i expect them to go


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## wayward bob (Jul 29, 2012)

i'm gonna tell this story _just_ to fuck william off 

when my youngest started nursery she was very shy, but gradually a couple of little groups formed and she got really friendly with a particular girl, they're still really good mates.

gradually i got to know her mum, she's ace and is now my very best mate locally (she lives literally around the corner).

when my mum moved to cardiff a couple of years back she started an italian class, got very friendly with a particular woman. turns out she was my mate's mum.


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## xenon (Jul 29, 2012)

oh it's about kids vs not having kids. *shrug* I didn't read page 2...


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## wayward bob (Jul 29, 2012)

well i think technically it's probably okay to have blood relatives, as long as we don't talk about them when wow's in the room


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## William of Walworth (Jul 29, 2012)

xenon said:


> oh it's about kids vs not having kids. *shrug* I didn't read page 2...


 
That was far from my intention in starting this.

(I've come a major cropper with that particular subject, and justiably so cos I was an arse at the time , but that was a good few years ago on here now, and I'd like to think that I've become _somewhat_ mellower nowadays).

My confusion, and Debbie's too, about general-family-*dominated* conversation and chat in Wales, is somewhat different.

And I do accept earlier points about all this probably not being Wales specific anyway. More about the culture shock of moving away from London to here and all that.

I really, genuinely did want an interesting discussion to kick off, and it has, so cheers all (seriously) because pretty much all the posts have given me more to think about.

Will return.


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## Clair De Lune (Jul 29, 2012)

I live in the same city as wow, I wondered recently how we had never met as it goes 
Maybe I will hang round in _petsathome_ with my kids chained up in the parking lot and see if I can strike up a conversation about pussy.


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## William of Walworth (Jul 29, 2012)

wayward bob said:


> well i think technically it's probably okay to have blood relatives, as long as we don't talk about them when wow's in the room


 
You made some fucking good points in some of your earlier posts btw. So feel free to be a tad twattish in the one above no bother  

Thinking about your posts though.

'More later' etc.


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## William of Walworth (Jul 29, 2012)

Clair De Lune said:


> I live in the same city as wow, I wondered recently how we had never met as it goes
> Maybe I will hang round in _petsathome_ with my kids chained up in the parking lot and see if I can strike up a conversation about pussy.


 
No need for that Clair. We'd get on a lot better than you think. This really isn't meant to be an anti children thread at all.


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## Clair De Lune (Jul 29, 2012)

William of Walworth said:


> No need for that Clair. We'd get on a lot better than you think. This really isn't meant to be an anti children thread at all.


I am only fucking about mr. Like a lot of things...thoughts like this are better out than in because sharing them can lead to new ways of thinking about them.
I have a lot of childless (and happy to be so) friends in Swansea. Imo and experience, us folk with kids are often left feeling excluded from many social activities, so it is interesting to hear that it works somewhat the same in reverse. We are all just people who have made different choices, I am sure there can be common ground though.


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## William of Walworth (Jul 29, 2012)

Fair do, thanks for those thoughts. Appreciated. To be honest though, a vast proprtion of all this one for both myself and festivaldeb too, is workplace related. To go no further for now


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## poisondwarf (Jul 29, 2012)

Clair De Lune said:


> People talk about people they love SHOCKER.
> Stupid thread, tinged with prejudice. Start a thread about cockney cats ffs.





I find a lot of Wow's posts generally have an anti welsh tinge to them. It's really fucking dull and i've said as much before. All his colleagues at the DVLA are racist or the people are different in one way or another, blah, blah, blah. Leave if you don't like it.


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## Orang Utan (Jul 29, 2012)

I have a mate who works at the same place as WoW. 
He doesn't have kids and isn't a racist. He likes beer too. 
You should hook up WoW


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## William of Walworth (Jul 30, 2012)

poisondwarf said:


> I find a lot of Wow's posts generally have an anti welsh tinge to them. It's really fucking dull and i've said as much before. All his colleagues at the X are racist or the people are different in one way or another, blah, blah, blah. Leave if you don't like it.


 
Cut out the *direct* employment place references please folks. Edit those out please.

And I never said 'all' at any time. I have plenty of friends/acquaintances/colleagues/fellow pubgoers here, both actual Welsh and resident (very) long term incomers, and getting on = no problem.

My sister's lived fewer than about 3 of her (older-than-me) years outside Wales, I was brought up in (North) Wales myself for about 17. For whatever very limited relevance either of those have.

So address whatever actual point I was *actually making * and kindly shut it with the racism accusations against me. Thanks


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## William of Walworth (Jul 30, 2012)

Just to add, I do appreciate that I am the minority outsider in all this, and that our far from family focussed lifestyle, and our lack of much interest in same,  must seem pretty odd and weird to some on here and even more to plenty beyond here, whether in the Swansea area or beyond that.

This isn't necessarily a Wales specific subject anyway, as I said in post 1 there must be plenty of places elsewhere (the rural areas, the North of England, , Scotland, wherever) where family life plays a much more central role to a bigger proportion of people than it seems to in London or other very big cities.

I speak as I find though, and having moved from London to Wales in 2008, as far as 'family life' is concerned, and most peoples' apparant take on it, I did find a major, major difference!

I was genuinely looking for insights/ideas/explanations though, have already had some (thanks -- as I said, wayward bob's posts frinstance, did get me prioperly thinking) so keep the discussion coming folks.

Got to go to work in a moment ....I'll play polite and nice when I get there as I generally try my best to -- it's my last few days in that particular team, along with two others I'm tranferring to another one next week.

Apparantly in the new group there are two people who are in actual bands! 

Could become a bit of a different working day vibe, you never know.


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## William of Walworth (Jul 30, 2012)

Some of my best friends are Welsh!


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## JHE (Jul 30, 2012)

William of Walworth said:


> Apparantly in the new group there are two people who are in actual bands!


 
They'll be young enough to be your children, if not your grandchildren, and will see you accurately as a moany geriatric Englishman.


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## William of Walworth (Jul 30, 2012)

Very likely!  They're both around their thirties by the look of them


----------



## Gavin Bl (Aug 3, 2012)

William of Walworth said:


> AKA obsession?
> all 37 of their immediate relatives living withing fifteen minutes drive of where they live????  (that's empirical perception)


 
thats a 5 minute drive with my lot.


----------



## William of Walworth (Nov 1, 2012)

OK, here's mine, and deb's, take on 'Welsh Family Values' !!!!!



Being family-devoid drunks, we've just spent nearly 3 hours   in a Wetherspoons.

(Clue, not the main city centre one  ).

Reason we were there : Wetherspoons beer festival has some pretty cracking ones on right now.

And this non-City Centre one had some superbly better-quality ones this evening than the 'other' Spoons round here.

Twas a pretty spacious pub --huge in fact -- but it was generally packed to the rafters.

How about this tho'!

For the vast (and I mean vast!) majority of that time, we wittnessed nearly the *entire population* of that pub, and definitely including the parents, and only apart from a *very* few who quickly left, doing the *square root of bugger all* about a baby between one and one and a half year screaming its head off, exceptionally loudly.

Not altogether permanently, but not far off.

OK, they're freaks, those parents.

Most parents -- almost all -- abide by their baby reponsibilities, including when they've got a (no doubt!   ) VERY  rare treat-chance to go and eat very acceptably priced and served meals with other family members in a (very nice) pub

(for W'spoons  ).

But we feel like extreme freaks too!!! 

Always have been, always will be  

We're both on the older side, and have no kids.
(Not the normal sort o'kids, anyway  )

Relaxing lifestyle or what, and a good deal less expensive!



*EXTREME-A-MUNDO!!!!* freakishness round here!   (  )

Partly because we *are freaks!*

But also because ...

What the fucking extreme fuck with the widespread tolerence/ignoral in that very crowded, very local-known, bit also genuinely family minded pub ... but a pub that generally works, well, with being at the same time a beer drinker friendly place??? 

Main point though :

Does not doing *fuck all* about a baby that young screaming its troubled head off for over an hour, not constitute a certain level of child neglect?

Even *bordering* on the a-word?

Amongst the ignoring-skilled locals?

And does not the widespread 'laidbackness' (from those nearer-by than we were to everything I've described above) about such exteme family-friendly 'values' constitute active collaboration, or at least tolerence to the point of seeming to bend over over backwards to 'accomodate'?

With child abuse?

Sorry!!!! I obviously meant neglect!!! Obviously, like! Obviously!!! And nothing that bad! Baby to all appearances very well fed (not to mention well tolerated -- amd 'energetic!).

And all that, obvs! Well loved baby!!! Clearly Obvs! ....  

(Not that I ever drink with anyone who works for any council round here, not evah! Oh no!!  )


(That over the shoulder small-type aside was NOT, I repeat NOT,  a 'grassing' threat btw!!!  x 4,000 at my own lack of extreme-to-the-point-of-pedantic clarity!)

But anyway ... why, though, no polite ..... erm ..... approaches to that table?

From anyone? Why none, from no-one, at all?

Or why, even more so, why even not the *slightest* level of remonstration, even?

Not from anyone?

Not from the staff?

Is there anything remotely 'peculiar' to Wales about that kind of _well developed_ -- to the *extreme* -- level of 'tolerence'?

Or do we get the same thing in any other 'family friendly pubs' -- *anywhere* ?? 

(No doubt we definitely do, but I personally have never been to such a one outside this _particular_ 'area'   where such a thing happend with absoultely zero happening** in consequence. For a very long time ....

**Such as the parents very sensibly deciding of their 100% own volition to leave -- after their meal of course -- along with family.

Such as, ahem, a tad bit, slight amount, _sooner_?

(And hadn't they got a few grandparents and uncles/aunties/sisters and brothers in Wales anyway? Not in *Wales*? )

Babysitters well inexpeinsive, round here, I understand!! 

(not even as if these particular parents were particularly drunk, and they were pretty respectable looking in this case -- on the surface! ) 



Obviously I only started this thread merely to ask!  

Ok, so when there, we didn't object (at all). Seriously, we really really did not ...

(OK except fairly --actually very -- quietly amongst ourselves only  -- and a klong way away. Not before we'd  left, anyway!)

But festivaldeb did suggest a dangerous strategy.

(Wants old pink handbag thread icon!!!  )

Approach said family with great (but exceptionally well acted!  ) 'concern', after a VERY suitably long lapse of bawling-baby-time (and of beer), and express extreme 'concern' yourself.
(I do accept this kind of situation wouldn't come up very often at all ... he added with a tiny amount of dull and 'balanced' semi-rationality .... but we might, you never know, next time need an advance-prepared defence mechanism!)

Just do this *CONVINCINGLY!!* And act very well indeed, and to a *RADA,* or to a Welsh RADA equivalent, standard, please! 


So, here's deb's strategy :



Is your baby OK?

Is he a bit ill?

Are you sure he's all right?

We're pretty worried!

The poor thing has been really upset for over an hour ...

Can we help in any way?

We've got three  ourselves .... (  )

Great strategy, I thought, in going back on the bus in advance of a take-away theory, but!

Never going to work in our part of baby-and-family values worshipping Wales

It's not, 'mind', though!

'Is it'?


'See' 

"I just don't understand"


----------



## Orang Utan (Nov 1, 2012)

you're odd


----------



## weepiper (Nov 1, 2012)

babies cry, WoW. Sometimes nothing you can do will stop them crying. Sometimes you just want to be out of the goddamn house, just for a couple of hours, so that you can hear something _else_ to distract you from the baby crying.


----------



## ddraig (Nov 1, 2012)

wtf!


----------



## cesare (Nov 1, 2012)

You need to relax Will, or you'll drive yourself into an apoplectic spasm.


----------



## ddraig (Nov 1, 2012)

why would it be exclusive to Wales/Welshness ffs?


----------



## Orang Utan (Nov 1, 2012)

ddraig said:


> why would it be exclusive to Wales/Welshness ffs?


WoW is Welshist, clearly


----------



## Badgers (Nov 1, 2012)

ddraig said:
			
		

> why would it be exclusive to Wales/Welshness ffs?



Because you lot are monsters


----------



## wayward bob (Nov 1, 2012)

are you always such a prick wow or just about children and the welsh?


----------



## Badgers (Nov 1, 2012)

wayward bob said:
			
		

> are you always such a prick wow or just about children and the welsh?



The Jocks too I hear


----------



## Thora (Nov 1, 2012)

Wetherspoons is very family friendly!  They give out pencils and colouring-in stuff!

Yeah, it's irritating when other people's children are crying though and most people would leave if their child was still crying after an hour.  I've only experienced this very rarely though.


----------



## cesare (Nov 1, 2012)

I wonder how long it took Will to write all that out, and share the love.


----------



## weepiper (Nov 1, 2012)

cesare said:


> I wonder how long it took Will to write all that out, and share the love.


 
a lot longer than it would have taken him to bugger off to a different, less 'family friendly' pub where there wasn't a crying baby.


----------



## Belushi (Nov 1, 2012)

I've spent a lot of time in welsh pubs and its hardly a daily occurance. Welsh families and communities are often close, not sure when that became a bad thing.


----------



## cesare (Nov 1, 2012)

weepiper said:


> a lot longer than it would have taken him to bugger off to a different, less 'family friendly' pub where there wasn't a crying baby.


Quite.


----------



## Crispy (Nov 1, 2012)

And THAT is what 3 hours in a Wetherspoons will do to you


----------



## William of Walworth (Nov 1, 2012)

In answer to all the above gut reactions :

I'm pretty drunk. Festibavaldeb is too, and her views, even when not, are more 'cutting edge'  than mine.

None of you are probably that drunk, much.

So what's *your* excuse for not reading my post properly?

(I've edited/clarified it *extensively* just now, btw. Including OPEN admission that we're freaks -- especially round here -- or am I wrong about the family values bit? Round here, I guess, but also anywhere to a greater or lesser extent? Think about that!??)


----------



## William of Walworth (Nov 1, 2012)

Crispy said:


> And THAT is what 3 hours in a Wetherspoons will do to you


 
I make no denial of THAT point.    


But the babyloud story is accurate, all the same.


----------



## Orang Utan (Nov 1, 2012)

William of Walworth said:


> (I've edited/clarified it extensively just now, btw)


is it any more readable?


----------



## wayward bob (Nov 1, 2012)

William of Walworth said:


> (I've edited/clarified it extensively just now, btw)


 
cba, i'll settle for "always a prick" ta.


----------



## cesare (Nov 1, 2012)

You seem to be becoming less than enamoured with your adopted country, Will. Does this herald a move back to Sarf London?


----------



## William of Walworth (Nov 1, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> is it any more readable?


 
Well done, Mr WOM. Worked well! You've got the skilz.

Reading stuff properly does help, incidentally. Better than dismissing stuff out of hand with one liners.

But if you can't be arsed, feel free to cast nasturtiunms about _other_ peoples' intelligence/literacy levels


----------



## William of Walworth (Nov 1, 2012)

cesare said:


> You seem to be becoming less than enamoured with your adopted country, Will. Does this herald a move back to Sarf London?


 
No, not at all. Will get back to that at another time/another thread. That was  a pretty good one liner though from you, too!


----------



## William of Walworth (Nov 1, 2012)

wayward bob said:


> cba, i'll settle for "always a prick" ta.


 
Read it properly please. Thanks bob.


----------



## weepiper (Nov 1, 2012)

I have read it properly. It makes you sound like a prick. *shrug*


----------



## cesare (Nov 1, 2012)

William of Walworth said:


> No, not at all. Will get back to that at another time/another thread. That was  a pretty good one liner though from you, too!


I read your outburst, first and second time. Decided not to respond in kind, a one liner will do.


----------



## Badgers (Nov 1, 2012)

Go to bed William


----------



## Orang Utan (Nov 1, 2012)

William of Walworth said:


> Read it properly please. Thanks bob.


that's quite a big ask


----------



## William of Walworth (Nov 1, 2012)

About to. Just venting, like.

Been nearly six years


----------



## William of Walworth (Nov 1, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> that's quite a big ask


 
*That* big an ask? From bob? I'm sure bob's more intelligent than that!


----------



## William of Walworth (Nov 1, 2012)

cesare said:


> I read your outburst, first and second time. Decided not to respond in kind, a one liner will do.


 
Fair do's


----------



## William of Walworth (Nov 1, 2012)

weepiper said:


> I have read it properly. It makes you sound like a prick. *shrug*


 
Only while drunk!

Thats MY excuse


----------



## Orang Utan (Nov 1, 2012)

William of Walworth said:


> *That* big an ask? From bob? I'm sure bob's more intelligent than that!


your post is one big tl;dr, esp the formatting of it.


----------



## William of Walworth (Nov 1, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> your post is one big tl;dr, esp the formatting of it.


 
Could have done the whole thing in one unbroken paragraph!!!  

Which would be the very same 'tl dr' reason you'd have used to object, if I'd actually done that version of formatting.

And don't *pretend* you've you've not bloody read it, yer too obvious. Back to provocation school with you and learn something from Dr Lynch. Now!

(That 'tl dr' worked slightly for an amateur like me however  -- beer to blame only .... ) 

I really *am* off now though ('mind'), despite your attempts to delay me !


----------



## Spymaster (Nov 1, 2012)

Ignore these cunts, Will.

I've got you're back!


----------



## Orang Utan (Nov 1, 2012)

i'm going to read it now, just to please you.


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## William of Walworth (Nov 1, 2012)

>>Spy : Goodnight feller, but cheers! 

OU -- will switch off til tomorrow. The PC included 

But thanks* if* you mean it


----------



## Orang Utan (Nov 1, 2012)

William of Walworth said:


> "I just don't understand"


me neither
what a strange post


----------



## William of Walworth (Nov 1, 2012)

William of Walworth said:


> Just to add, I do appreciate that I am the minority outsider in all this, and that our far from family focussed lifestyle, and our lack of much interest in same, must seem pretty odd and weird to some on here and even more to plenty beyond here, whether in the Swansea area or beyond that.
> 
> This isn't necessarily a Wales specific subject anyway, as I said in post 1 there must be plenty of places elsewhere (the rural areas, the North of England, , Scotland, wherever) where family life plays a much more central role to a bigger proportion of people than it seems to in London or other very big cities.
> 
> ...


 
<On way to switch off!  at self but also  >

This selfquote here was _originally_ from me in late July (30th) I now find .

Was it any wonder after all this time that I bumped this thread a bit 'violently'  today?

(Anecdotes all true though, btw)


----------



## Orang Utan (Nov 1, 2012)

is it possible for you to post without recourse to smileys, parentheses, qualifiers, codicils and addenda?


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## Badgers (Nov 1, 2012)

BED WILLY =====>


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## oryx (Nov 1, 2012)

I find this thread a bit  but if the point William is making is the contrast between an intensely family-orientated community and a small child being left to cry for an hour and a half in a pub, with no intervention, then that has some validity.

Though of course it's not a Welsh thing (not that W was suggesting that) - it happens all over.


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## fogbat (Nov 2, 2012)

Babygate


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## William of Walworth (Nov 2, 2012)

oryx said:


> I find this thread a bit  but if the point William is making is the contrast between an intensely family-orientated community and a small child being left to cry for an hour and a half in a pub, with no intervention, then that has some validity.
> 
> Though of course it's not a Welsh thing (not that W was suggesting that) - it happens all over.


 
Thanks for that --in fact its not at all common to encounter incidents like that, and drunk as I was I accepted it was unusual to the point of being stand-out rare.

I did think there was something odd though, to say the least, about a baby crying loudly for well over an hour but this going apparantly ignored by not just his parents/family group but by all the *other* couples/groups/drinkers/families around them.

So yes, my post while deliberately worded provocatively, did carry some sort of point too. Probably wouldn't even have bothered on here had I been a fair bit more sober, so thank/blame the beer if you like. Because yes, no shock, we'd been drinking a shedload ...


----------



## William of Walworth (Nov 2, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> is it possible for you to post without recourse to smileys, parentheses, qualifiers, codicils and addenda?


 
Not at that point last night, no, so tough.

Anyway, think about how that post might have been worded _without_ any qualifiers etc.

<No smiley on Urban capable of encapsulating that!>


----------



## Orang Utan (Nov 2, 2012)

You're not even capable of it, are you? 
You're worse than Columbo


----------



## Badgers (Nov 2, 2012)

#babygate


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## William of Walworth (Nov 2, 2012)

Just reread Babygate -- the post!

It really, really doesn't look _that_ bad even now (IMO). All those qualifications/clarifications (including smilies!) that OU objects to so much and so irrelevantly, still left it pretty clear what I was getting at, And also it was pretty clear that not every single word in there was entirely serious anyway.

So no apologies from me, not even this morning after, least of all for drinking that amount of beer, because there were some cracking choices of pint on.


----------



## William of Walworth (Nov 2, 2012)

Columbo reference has passed me by I fear.


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## Orang Utan (Nov 2, 2012)

Your contempt for families is apparent. I was just objecting to your weird style and trying to convey how it might be offputting to a casual observer. But I suppose that's like objecting to the wind.


----------



## Orang Utan (Nov 2, 2012)

William of Walworth said:


> Columbo reference has passed me by I fear.


So it has. Oh well.


----------



## William of Walworth (Nov 2, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> *Your contempt for families is apparent*.


 
Some of my best friends are in them ...

And you overgeneralise wildly anyway (reread the old post requoted in 124). My opinions are far from mainstream and I've always accepted that, but you could find a better word than contempt. And a better attitude to me than contempt too, for that matter.


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## phildwyer (Nov 8, 2012)

William should _so _have a kid. He so obviously wants one badly. And he could post daily updates about his child-rearing on here too.

Seriously, I'd think he'd love being a father and should do it asap. Someone else tell him though, he won't listen to me.


----------



## William of Walworth (Nov 8, 2012)

So laughbly wrong there phil!    

Anyway festivaldeb would never stand for it either (even less so in fact), and she's left the matter just a tad bit too late now.

Bothered? Not really ....


----------



## Orang Utan (Nov 8, 2012)

we should send you a bairn that you must look after


----------



## _angel_ (Nov 8, 2012)

Babies cry. Some cry for literally hours on end and some will not be
calmed by anything at all. The parents will know that god knows I do.
It even happens in england!!


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## wayward bob (Nov 8, 2012)

_angel_ said:


> It even happens in england!!


 
lol


----------



## ddraig (Nov 8, 2012)




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## poisondwarf (Nov 8, 2012)

Oh what a surprise...WoW being a twat.


----------



## marty21 (Nov 10, 2012)

_angel_ said:


> It's not confined to Wales. On these estates people live on the same street as their mums, sisters, dads etc.
> Now I come to think about it most of my in laws family live within the same square mile elsewhere in Yorkshire.
> London is the unusual case.


I've worked on estates in London which are full of family and extended family all living close by.


----------



## Athos (Nov 10, 2012)

_angel_ said:
			
		

> Babies cry. Some cry for literally hours on end and some will not be
> calmed by anything at all. The parents will know that god knows I do.
> It even happens in england!!



But surely the point is that if your baby is crying for hours on end you don't ignore its distress and subject others to the noise. People don't go to the pub to hear screaming kids.


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## DotCommunist (Nov 10, 2012)

shot of brandy in the milk, everyones a winner


----------



## Athos (Nov 10, 2012)

DotCommunist said:
			
		

> shot of brandy in the milk, everyones a winner



When I was a baby, a friend of my mother swore by this. Luckily my mum didn't take her advice. The woman killed her son with too much brandy one night.


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## _angel_ (Nov 10, 2012)

Athos said:


> But surely the point is that if your baby is crying for hours on end you don't ignore its distress and subject others to the noise. People don't go to the pub to hear screaming kids.


This is the reason people (usually mums) get isolated and left on their own. Don't want people judging them when they can't stop the baby crying.


----------



## Athos (Nov 10, 2012)

_angel_ said:


> This is the reason people (usually mums) get isolated and left on their own. Don't want people judging them when they can't stop the baby crying.


 
There's loads  of places parents with young kids can go to socialise without imposing screaming kids on people who want a quiet drink.  To sit in a pub and do nothing whilst your baby cries is selfish.  Both towards the kid and the other patrons of the pub.  If my kids cry in a pub I try to settle them; if I can't, I take them outside for a walk; if that doesn't work, I take them home.


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## Thora (Nov 10, 2012)

I agree, being in a pub with a whingey toddler is annoying.  However, Wetherspoons is not somewhere I would go for a quiet, adult only drink on a weekend daytime - at least my local isn't, it's always packed with families at the weekend.


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## spawnofsatan (Nov 10, 2012)

You haven't been to Nottingham lately have you will?

http://www.thisisnottingham.co.uk/T...ub-recognise/story-16981357-detail/story.html


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## Athos (Nov 10, 2012)

Thora said:


> I agree, being in a pub with a whingey toddler is annoying. However, Wetherspoons is not somewhere I would go for a quiet, adult only drink on a weekend daytime - at least my local isn't, it's always packed with families at the weekend.


 
Fair point.  I guess it's horses for courses.


----------



## _angel_ (Nov 10, 2012)

Athos said:


> There's loads of places parents with young kids can go to socialise without imposing screaming kids on people who want a quiet drink. To sit in a pub and do nothing whilst your baby cries is selfish. Both towards the kid and the other patrons of the pub. If my kids cry in a pub I try to settle them; if I can't, I take them outside for a walk; if that doesn't work, I take them home.


Yeah this is why I didn't go anywhere at all with my middle child and I only 'inflict' youngest on pubs in daytime for short periods. We're very child unfriendly in general in England, from what I remember, Scotland are even worse (for not wanting young kids on the premises). I can't speak for Wales.
I didn't even go to places that are supposed to be for babies because he cried, but it is isolating and everyone seems to be judging you no matter what you do. Old women are the worse but the amount of sneering you get for even getting on a train/ bus with a kid that's crying.


----------



## Athos (Nov 10, 2012)

_angel_ said:


> Yeah this is why I didn't go anywhere at all with my middle child and I only 'inflict' youngest on pubs in daytime for short periods. We're very child unfriendly in general in England, from what I remember, Scotland are even worse (for not wanting young kids on the premises). I can't speak for Wales.
> I didn't even go to places that are supposed to be for babies because he cried, but it is isolating and everyone seems to be judging you no matter what you do. Old women are the worse but the amount of sneering you get for even getting on a train/ bus with a kid that's crying.


I don't see how anyone could object to anyone taking kids to a kid's venue, or even on a bus or train. But I can't help but think that a pub isn't a good place for bawling infants. To my mind, that's not being unfriendly to kids; rather it's being fair to other people. And I love kids and am the main carer for mine.  I don't want to see anyone isolated, but I do find the some people's sense of entitlement a bit frustrating. The truth is that people can't have it all. The way I see it, unless you're willing to impose your choices on others, then, if you choose kids, that's going to preclude some adult activities.


----------



## spanglechick (Nov 10, 2012)

nice.

alternatively, why restrict a section of our society (children) from any environment unless it is, by nature dangerous or sexualised/violent? It's almost a cliche to point to southern europe, but in absence of a pub culture they have family friendly venues for drinking and socialising late into the night, children included.


----------



## Thora (Nov 10, 2012)

Athos said:


> I don't see how anyone could object to anyone taking kids to a kid's venue, or even on a bus or train. But I can't help but think that a pub isn't a good place for bawling infants. To my mind, that's not being unfriendly to kids; rather it's being fair to other people. And I love kids and am the main carer for mine. I don't want to see anyone isolated, but I do find the some people's sense of entitlement a bit frustrating. The truth is that people can't have it all. The way I see it, unless you're willing to impose your choices on others, then, if you choose kids, that's going to preclude some adult activities.


There are loads of child free places though!  If I go pretty much anywhere after 8pm I can 99% guarantee I won't see anyone younger than 12.  I take my kid to places lateish (up to about 9pm) and he is normally the only child there.


----------



## Athos (Nov 10, 2012)

spanglechick said:
			
		

> nice.
> 
> alternatively, why restrict a section of our society (children) from any environment unless it is, by nature dangerous or sexualised/violent? It's almost a cliche to point to southern europe, but in absence of a pub culture they have family friendly venues for drinking and socialising late into the night, children included.



I'm not sure children being in late night drinking venues is something to aspire to. 

But even then, my point wasn't that kids shouldn't be in pubs (I've spent the afternoon there with my two), but rather that parents should show some consideration for others: if they cannot behave in a way that doesn't spoil others' enjoyment, don't take them. It's the sense of entitlement that irritates me; the idea that parents who have chosen to have children are entitled to impose their noise on others.


----------



## Thora (Nov 10, 2012)

As far as I am aware, children are human beings as well so no reason why they shouldn't be "imposed" on the rest of society


----------



## Voley (Nov 10, 2012)

spanglechick said:


> nice.
> 
> alternatively, why restrict a section of our society (children) from any environment unless it is, by nature dangerous or sexualised/violent? It's almost a cliche to point to southern europe, but in absence of a pub culture they have family friendly venues for drinking and socialising late into the night, children included.


Most of Asia, too, or the bits I've seen anyhow. People have no problem with restaurants etc being used as kids playrooms. Often the owners will take it on themselves to help keep the kids amused, too. The waiter will be getting them some sweets etc. We're really shit in comparison.

Apologies if this point's already been made. I've not read the thread- William's views on kids don't make easy reading for me so I tend to avoid them.


----------



## Belushi (Nov 10, 2012)

Athos said:


> I'm not sure children being in late night drinking venues is something to aspire to.


 
Is the problem children or British drinking culture?


----------



## spanglechick (Nov 10, 2012)

Athos said:


> I'm not sure children being in late night drinking venues is something to aspire to.
> 
> But even then, my point wasn't that kids shouldn't be in pubs (I've spent the afternoon there with my two), but rather that parents should show some consideration for others: if they cannot behave in a way that doesn't spoil others' enjoyment, don't take them. It's the sense of entitlement that irritates me; the idea that parents who have chosen to have children are entitled to impose their noise on others.


but you're behaving as if children are annoying ringtones.  children are an unavoidable stage of being a person. like we all are.  we were all babies once, and we cried. what gives us the position of judgement to disapprove when another person is going through that unavoidable stage?  

and why isn't it something to aspire to? having kids in licensed cafes etc in the evenings?  perhaps if you grow up around people making alcohol and socialising a normal part of family life, they're less likely to see boozing as big and clever, adult stuff and go fucking mental on it in their teens.


----------



## Athos (Nov 10, 2012)

Thora said:
			
		

> There are loads of child free places though!  If I go pretty much anywhere after 8pm I can 99% guarantee I won't see anyone younger than 12.  I take my kid to places lateish (up to about 9pm) and he is normally the only child there.



Which, in and of itself, isn't something I'd object to. But it would be different if he was running around screeching, spoiling everyone else's evening. Simple really. Not anti-kids, not even anti-kids-in-pubs; just courtesy.


----------



## Athos (Nov 10, 2012)

Thora said:
			
		

> As far as I am aware, children are human beings as well so no reason why they shouldn't be "imposed" on the rest of society



It's about the imposition caused by the inappropriateness of children's behaviour in an environment which most people would reasonably expect to be an adult one.


----------



## Thora (Nov 10, 2012)

Athos said:


> It's about the imposition caused by the inappropriateness of children's behaviour in an environment which most people would reasonably expect to be an adult one.


I'm been imposed upon waaaay more often by drunks/men in pubs than by noisy children.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 10, 2012)

Athos said:


> It's about the *imposition* caused by the *inappropriateness* of children's behaviour in an environment which *most people would reasonably expect to be an adult one*.


 
All value judgement's that are based on circular assumptions.


----------



## Athos (Nov 10, 2012)

butchersapron said:
			
		

> All value judgement's that are based on circular assumptions.



Yes. But so is the contrary position.


----------



## Athos (Nov 10, 2012)

spanglechick said:
			
		

> but you're behaving as if children are annoying ringtones.  children are an unavoidable stage of being a person. like we all are.  we were all babies once, and we cried. what gives us the position of judgement to disapprove when another person is going through that unavoidable stage?
> 
> and why isn't it something to aspire to? having kids in licensed cafes etc in the evenings?  perhaps if you grow up around people making alcohol and socialising a normal part of family life, they're less likely to see boozing as big and clever, adult stuff and go fucking mental on it in their teens.



I don't disapprove of a state of human development. It's just that I consider it selfish to impose the noise that can go with it on others.


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## cesare (Nov 10, 2012)

Athos said:


> Yes. But so is the contrary position.


The contrary position isn't about excluding a section of society on the basis of a "most people" argument that you only seem to share with William.

Edit: which if you're doing fallacies, is appeal to popularity.


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## butchersapron (Nov 10, 2012)

Athos said:


> Yes. But so is the contrary position.


They might be value judgements, but i can't see how they're based on circular argument or assumption.


----------



## bi0boy (Nov 10, 2012)

As well as children another very Welsh thing is to always have a tree at Christmas. Always.


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## Athos (Nov 10, 2012)

cesare said:
			
		

> The contrary position isn't about excluding a section of society on the basis of a "most people" argument that you only seem to share with William.



It's not on the basis of 'most people.' It's in the basis of imposing on others. And I haven't called for the exclusion of all kids, or even of noisy kids. All I've suggested is that parents ought to be a little more considerate, and not allow their kids to ruin other people's evenings.


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## Athos (Nov 10, 2012)

butchersapron said:
			
		

> They might be value judgements, but i can't see how they're based on circular argument or assumption.



It looks like it comes down to one set of values against another, then. My values mean that I wouldn't let my kids spoil somebody's trip to the pub. Other people may feel it's OK to do.


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## cesare (Nov 10, 2012)

Athos said:


> It's about the imposition caused by the inappropriateness of children's behaviour in an environment which *most people* would reasonably expect to be an adult one.



Ahem.

My emphasis.


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## Thora (Nov 10, 2012)

Athos said:


> It's not on the basis of 'most people.' It's in the basis of imposing on others. And I haven't called for the exclusion of all kids, or even of noisy kids. All I've suggested is that parents ought to be a little more considerate, and not allow their kids to ruin other people's evenings.


This wasn't the evening though, it was during the day.

I honestly cannot think of a single occasion where an evening out has been ruined by children.


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## Athos (Nov 10, 2012)

Thora said:
			
		

> This wasn't the evening though, it was during the day.
> 
> I honestly cannot think of a single occasion where an evening out has been ruined by children.



I can.


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## Thora (Nov 10, 2012)

Athos said:


> I can.


Unlucky.  How often has an evening out been ruined by adults?


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## spanglechick (Nov 10, 2012)

if the sound of crying *ruins* your evening out (assuming not trying to watch a film or a play)...  i can only conclude you don't have much fun going on anyway.  surely you're too wrapped up in chat and banter and laughing to focus on extraneous noise.


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## ddraig (Nov 10, 2012)

went to a venue last night for a benefit for a deported family and there were lots of kids there
they were cool, running around and livening the place up
at one point a woman who was on the stage asked where her child was and it was being looked after by someone else in the next room, on with the show.

tbh i was more concerned about not clocking one of them with my drink or knocking in to them through my action not theirs.
it was a community/family event and the kiddies enhanced that and gave me some hope to be fair


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## ddraig (Nov 10, 2012)

and this was in Wales!


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## Athos (Nov 10, 2012)

cesare said:
			
		

> Ahem.
> 
> My emphasis.



'Most people' was little more than shorthand for social norms (value based, I accept). I wouldn't walk into a women's changing room, and hope that other blokes wouldn't. I'm not excluding a section of society (or whatever shrill hyperbole was used about my position on kids screaming in pubs), just acknowledging the feelings of others.


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## Athos (Nov 10, 2012)

Thora said:
			
		

> Unlucky.  How often has an evening out been ruined by adults?



Too often.


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## Athos (Nov 10, 2012)

spanglechick said:
			
		

> if the sound of crying *ruins* your evening out (assuming not trying to watch a film or a play)...  i can only conclude you don't have much fun going on anyway.  surely you're too wrapped up in chat and banter and laughing to focus on extraneous noise.



If I've got an opportunity for a night out with the mrs and we want to talk to each other in a relaxing environment, the mood is ruined somewhat by a kid screaming a few feet away.

But worse than that is older kids running around bumping into your chair and perpetually on the verge of knocking the drinks over. Whilst their parents are too busy getting pissed to care about the irritation their kids are causing to others.


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## Athos (Nov 10, 2012)

ddraig said:
			
		

> it was a community/family event and the kiddies enhanced that and gave me some hope to be fair


The context is crucial.


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## cesare (Nov 10, 2012)

Athos said:


> 'Most people' was little more than shorthand for social norms (value based, I accept). I wouldn't walk into a women's changing room, and hope that other blokes wouldn't. I'm not excluding a section of society (or whatever shrill hyperbole was used about my position on kids screaming in pubs), just acknowledging the feelings of others.



You cannot draw a comparison between gender segregated changing rooms and pubs without deploying another fallacy.

No shrill hyperbole either - there's another one.


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## butchersapron (Nov 10, 2012)

Athos said:


> The context is crucial.


Indeed, so why insist that all contexts are "adult one."  -i.e adult alone.


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## butchersapron (Nov 10, 2012)

Athos said:


> It looks like it comes down to one set of values against another, then. My values mean that I wouldn't let my kids spoil somebody's trip to the pub. Other people may feel it's OK to do.


It might rest on that - but i was saying that your arguments are not real arguments. They are circular assertions. They don't even support your values.


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## Athos (Nov 10, 2012)

butchersapron said:
			
		

> It might rest on that - but i was saying that your arguments are not real arguments. They are circular assertions. They don't even support your values.



They are value based assertions. As are the counter-arguments.


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## butchersapron (Nov 10, 2012)

Athos said:


> They are value based assertions. As are the counter-arguments.


They are arguments based on the use of social space and how that works for parents. Yours are based on the fact they are a) and you want a) so anything that is not a) is bad. Child like arguments. Being value based is neither here nor there if your arguments are circular and assumption based.


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## Athos (Nov 10, 2012)

butchersapron said:
			
		

> Indeed, so why insist that all contexts are "adult one."  -i.e adult alone.



Again, it's a value judgement. In my opinion, absent an event of some kind, pubs are environments in which adults can reasonably expect behaviour of a certain maturity (it's about the impact of the behaviour on others, not the age of those present). You may disagree.

If you had young kids, would you let them run around a pub creating havoc and spoiling it for others?


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## butchersapron (Nov 10, 2012)

Athos said:


> Again, it's a value judgement. In my opinion, absent an event of some kind, pubs are environments in which adults can reasonably expect behaviour of a certain maturity (it's about the impact of the behaviour on others, not the age of those present). You may disagree.
> 
> If you had young kids, would you let them run around a pub creating havoc and spoiling it for others?


Another circular 'argument'. Value judgments are not circular arguments. You can argue in support of them non-circularly. Well, other people can...


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## Athos (Nov 10, 2012)

butchersapron said:
			
		

> They are arguments based on the use of social space and how that works for parents. Yours are based on the fact they are a) and you want a) so anything that is not a) is bad. Child like arguments. Being value based is neither here nor there if your arguments are circular and assumption based.



The counte-arguments are based on value judgements about how social space should be used.


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## Athos (Nov 10, 2012)

butchersapron said:
			
		

> Another circular 'argument'. Value judgments are not circular arguments. You can argue in support of them non-circularly. Well, other people can...



What about the question I asked?


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## butchersapron (Nov 10, 2012)

Athos said:


> The counte-arguments are based on value judgements about how social space should be used.


Yes they are. But not circular ones. The value judgment thing has blinded you to the key part of my point - the circular nature of your argument. Essentially, i like pubs, pubs are this thing, therefore do this thing.


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## zog (Nov 10, 2012)

ddraig said:


> and this was in Wales!


 
Not in Swansea though


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## butchersapron (Nov 10, 2012)

Athos said:


> What about the question I asked?


 



			
				you said:
			
		

> If you had young kids, would you let them run around a pub creating havoc and spoiling it for others?


Grow up.


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## Athos (Nov 10, 2012)

butchersapron said:
			
		

> Yes they are. But not circular ones. The value judgment thing has blinded you to the key part of my point - the circular nature of your argument. Essentially, i like pubs, pubs are this thing, therefore do this thing.



No. My position is based on a value judgement about the extent to which it is OK for my conduct to impact negatively on others.


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## butchersapron (Nov 10, 2012)

Athos said:


> No. My position is based on a value judgement about the extent to which it is OK for my conduct to impact negatively on others.


This:



> It's about the imposition caused by the inappropriateness of children's behaviour in an environment which most people would reasonably expect to be an adult one


 
which my original post refers to did a far lot more than that. It assumed a range of things that need to exist for that to be true  - didn't it?


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## Athos (Nov 10, 2012)

butchersapron said:
			
		

> Grow up.



Come on, it's a fair question. Because, ultimately, that's what my position boils down to. (I haven't said kids should be excluded from pubs or anything extreme.) I'm interested to see how your position differs from mine.


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## butchersapron (Nov 10, 2012)

Athos said:


> Come on, it's a fair question. Because, ultimately, that's what my position boils down to. (I haven't said kids should be excluded from pubs or anything extreme.) I'm interested to see how your position differs from mine.


Asking someone if they would do evil or good (defined as your postion) is _not_ a fair question


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## Athos (Nov 10, 2012)

butchersapron said:
			
		

> This:
> 
> which my original post refers to did a far lot more than that. It assumed a range of things that need to exist for that to be true  - didn't it?



I can see how you could interpret it that way if it is considered in isolation. But, in the context of this thread, that's a bit disingenuous. My position isn't based on any assumption; it's based upon my experience that noisy kids in pubs impact negatively on others' enjoyment. And a value judgment about the reasonableness of me conducting myself in a way that causes that negative impact.


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## William of Walworth (Nov 10, 2012)

poisondwarf said:


> Oh what a surprise...WoW being a twat.


 
Agenda, much?  

(his previous post a few pages back was even more full of shit -- with an entirely false accusation against me to boot)


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## Athos (Nov 10, 2012)

butchersapron said:
			
		

> Asking someone if they would do evil or good (defined as your postion) is not a fair question



I'm asking you what you would do as a matter of fact. And suspect that the reason you won't answer is that your position would be the same as mine.


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## butchersapron (Nov 10, 2012)

You're asking me a _would you let your son assault someone again? _question_._


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## William of Walworth (Nov 10, 2012)

angel said:
			
		

> It's not confined to Wales. On these estates people live on the same street as their mums, sisters, dads etc.
> Now I come to think about it most of my in laws family live within the same square mile elsewhere in Yorkshire.
> London is the unusual case.


 


marty21 said:


> I've worked on estates in London which are full of family and extended family all living close by.


 
Do see your points, I've acknowldged several times in earlier pots that the close family network thing isn't just a Welsh phenomenon. But it IS pretty strong here, and it's where I live.

 More tomorrow. Off to pub once again


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## Athos (Nov 10, 2012)

butchersapron said:
			
		

> You're asking me a would you let your son assault someone again? question.



No I'm not. Why won't you answer? Would it help if I refined it a bit?:

If you knew that allowing your kids to be noisy in a pub would spoil other people's night out, would you allow it to happen?


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## butchersapron (Nov 10, 2012)

Athos said:


> No I'm not. Why won't you answer? Would it help if I refined it a bit?:
> 
> If you knew that allowing your kids to be noisy in a pub would spoil other people's night out, would you allow it to happen?


 


> If you had young kids, would you let them run around a pub creating havoc and spoiling it for others?


 
Would you do evil?


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## Athos (Nov 10, 2012)

butchersapron said:
			
		

> Would you do evil?



I might do it as you define it.

I've answered your question. Will you answer mine?


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## butchersapron (Nov 10, 2012)

I didn't ask a question - i characterised yours. And no, of course i won't answer such a refined assumption based question.


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## Athos (Nov 10, 2012)

butchersapron said:
			
		

> I didn't ask a question - i characterised yours. And no, of course i won't answer such a refined assumption based question.



What is the assumption in the reworded question?


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## butchersapron (Nov 10, 2012)

Athos said:


> What is the assumption in the reworded question?





> If you knew that allowing your kids to be noisy in a pub would spoil other people's night out, would you allow it to happen?


 
 That Kids being noisy in a pub is not allowed full stop. Few others i spotted after the obvious - allowing?


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## ddraig (Nov 10, 2012)

William of Walworth said:


> Agenda, much?
> 
> (his previous post a few pages back was even more full of shit -- with an entirely false accusation against me to boot)


why would they have an agenda? 
and what is yours? presuming they are male etc

just find a shitty old pub with old men in it and face paying more than spoons
or deal with it of course


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## Athos (Nov 10, 2012)

butchersapron said:
			
		

> That Kids being noisy in a pub is not allowed full stop. Few others i spotted after the obvious - allowing?



Would you attempt to prevent your kids being noisy in a pub if you knew that such noise would spoil others' evenings?


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## butchersapron (Nov 10, 2012)

Athos said:


> Would you attempt to prevent your kids being noisy in a pub if you knew that such noise would spoil others' evenings?


Of course i would, most people would  - which doesn't then follow that the pubs are yours and should be kept kid free on the basis of all pubs being alone yours


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## butchersapron (Nov 10, 2012)

athos said:
			
		

> It's about the imposition caused by the inappropriateness of children's behaviour in an environment which most people would reasonably expect to be an adult one.


 
vs




			
				athos said:
			
		

> Would you attempt to prevent your kids being noisy in a pub if you knew that such noise would spoil others' evenings?


 
Spot the refined difference.


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## Athos (Nov 10, 2012)

butchersapron said:
			
		

> vs
> 
> Spot the refined difference.



Fair point. The first post attempted to explain why I felt people got upset by noisy kids in pubs. But it was clumsy. My position is better reflected in the refined question. Can you answer it?


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## butchersapron (Nov 10, 2012)

I did. Everyone does pretty much does.


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## Athos (Nov 10, 2012)

butchersapron said:
			
		

> Of course i would, most people would  - which doesn't then follow that the pubs are yours and should be kept kid free on the basis of all pubs being alone yours



Then we agree. Because you'd do the same as me in that situation, and because I didn't suggest that pubs are mine or that they should be kept kid free (in fact, I explicitly acknowledged the opposite).


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## spanglechick (Nov 10, 2012)

here's a thing.  

you could ask another question.  you might ask a gay person whether they would kiss their partner in a pub, knowing it might spoil others' evenings.  I have no doubt that it would genuinely ruin their evening, but, tbh, since gay people are as entitled to show affection as everyone else, then the people who are taking offence can get stuffed. their problem.

similarly, kids are as much entitled to be a part of our society and enjoy themselves in public (or be upset in public) as we are.


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## Athos (Nov 10, 2012)

spanglechick said:
			
		

> here's a thing.
> 
> you could ask another question. you might ask a gay person whether they would kiss their partner in a pub, knowing it might spoil others' evenings. I have no doubt that it would genuinely ruin their evening, but, tbh, since gay people are as entitled to show affection as everyone else, then the people who are taking offence can get stuffed. their problem.
> 
> similarly, kids are as much entitled to be a part of our society and enjoy themselves in public (or be upset in public) as we are.


 
Good point. But I guess it comes back to a value judgment about the reasonableness of other peoples expectations. And whilst I don't think it reasonable that anyone should be expected to tolerate a denial of their sexuality, I don't feel the same way about people expecting pubs to be free of noisy kids. I think there's a difference; it lies in the impact on a gay person of homophobia and the impact on a kid of not being allowed to make a noise in a pub.


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## William of Walworth (Nov 10, 2012)

ddraig said:


> why would they have an agenda?
> and what is yours? presuming they are male etc


 
poisondwarf made two posts on this thread consisting of abuse of me *and nothing else *(which is why I suggested an agenda). He --OK or she -- didn't even engage with the subject matter, at all,  unlike everyone else who had a pop at me (sometimes fair enougly tbh) -- they at least had something other than pure abuse to contribute. The first poisondwarf post also named my employer and made an outright false accusation against me (the more recent post at least confined itself to calling me a twat). So forgive me for not being that poster's biggest fan ever.


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## William of Walworth (Nov 10, 2012)

spawnofsatan said:


> You haven't been to Nottingham lately have you will?
> 
> http://www.thisisnottingham.co.uk/T...ub-recognise/story-16981357-detail/story.html


 
Not for over 15 years!


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## William of Walworth (Nov 10, 2012)

Athos said:


> It's not on the basis of 'most people.' It's in the basis of imposing on others.* And I haven't called for the exclusion of all kids, or even of noisy kids.* All I've suggested is that parents ought to be a little more considerate, and not allow their kids to ruin other people's evenings.


 
Just to be clear (to everyone I mean), I've never argued for that either, and I did go put of my way to say that the anecdote I gave was of a pretty rare occurrence.

(ETA to add the crucial 'n' to 'ever'  )


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## William of Walworth (Nov 10, 2012)

NVP said:


> Apologies if this point's already been made. I've not read the thread- William's views on kids don't make easy reading for me so I tend to avoid them.


 
It might be worth a read all the same if you have a bit of time (the thread started off as about families not about childdren alone). I've seriously not been that bad. Even the 'Babygate' post was only semi-serious drunken babble with a true anecdote attached, that did actually spark off some interesting discussion (as well as some name calling  ).


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## Orang Utan (Nov 11, 2012)

babyhater


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## William of Walworth (Nov 12, 2012)

Unoriginal!


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## Tankus (Nov 12, 2012)

ddraig said:


> no Hiraeth yet?
> 
> mulling over a proper reply...


Hit me........moved to the Vale earlier  this year after 30years in the smoke.....didn't quite fancy going back to the valleys as I wanted a bit of coast thrown in......

For me.....it seemed that London's for the young... it was an utter blast in the 80's , fun in the 90's  ,less so in the 00's......probably just me getting older


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## ciao69 (May 26, 2014)

geminisnake said:


> I am not welsh, nor have I ever lived there but I kinda get what William is on about from my various visits to Wales and from speaking to son about his stay there. And you don't seem to get a lot of welsh expats in mine & hubby's experience and he worked in the building trade(which is full of all sorts) for years. We have had chats about it before.
> The welsh do seem to be more content to stay within their local area and are more close knit. As to whether this is a good thing or bad depends on the person I guess.
> Me, I don't see my extended family from one year to the next and tbh it's what I'm used to, seems to be kinda traditional at least on my dads side.
> 
> Maybe it's got something to do with geography, this is what we've wondered before. Travelling before cars must have been a nightmare between the valleys.


i kinda think that same as william of walworth that u are guilty of generalising the welsh people . .do we think ALL cockneys are bullshitters and live on jellied eels , no , but apparently a portion of our english neighbours believe the stereotypes they see on tv. .shame


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## ciao69 (May 26, 2014)

8ball said:


> WoW - you have incurred the breeders' wrath and are condemned to a hairshirt for the rest of the year.


you see m8 where stereotyping can get u in trouble , .i could quite happily tear your fucking face off and my mam would happily watch . my da would prob assist and all my other relatives come along , cut ur cockoff and shove it down ur throat , shit thats more b.s


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## Blagsta (May 26, 2014)

ciao69 said:


> you see m8 where stereotyping can get u in trouble , .i could quite happily tear your fucking face off and my mam would happily watch . my da would prob assist and all my other relatives come along , cut ur cockoff and shove it down ur throat , shit thats more b.s



Out of order.


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## fogbat (May 26, 2014)

Blagsta said:


> Out of order.



Damn right. Next time, use the shift key.


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## 8ball (May 26, 2014)

ciao69 said:


> you see m8 where stereotyping can get u in trouble , .i could quite happily tear your fucking face off and my mam would happily watch . my da would prob assist and all my other relatives come along , cut ur cockoff and shove it down ur throat , shit thats more b.s


 
I certainly see how inbreeding can you into trouble.


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## William of Walworth (Jun 14, 2014)

As this has  been bumped, I'd like to say I was not (IMO) sterotyping in the way suggested.

I included some fairly shite/badly expressed stuff (blame the beer!) stuff at the start which I'd word very differently now ideally, but not all my posts were nonsense.

My observations WERE based on observed reality, or on a not too exaggerated perception of it anyway. In Swansea and area at least, there IS very high degree of child focussed, family focussed stuff, to the extent that those of us who have neither family anywhere near, nor children, feel like eccentric exceptions. As if we're breaking the social law almost (I exaggerate of course, but not by SO much   -- I've been living here for five and half years now)

But -- not stereotyping, because I fully accept that there will be plenty of local exceptions here, we know and are friends with several ourselves. Nor would I claim that 'all' Welsh people fit into this, nor that family focus doesn't apply anywhere else.

Swansea does *seem* dominated by children and families was/is my only point  -- but note the word 'seem'.


----------



## ddraig (Jun 14, 2014)

William of Walworth said:


> As this has  been bumped, I'd like to say I was not (IMO) sterotyping in the way suggested.
> 
> I included some fairly shite/badly expressed stuff (blame the beer!) stuff at the start which I'd word very differently now ideally, but not all my posts were nonsense.
> 
> ...



William!! STOP digging man

you are an eccentric exception! nothing to do with not having kids


----------



## JTG (Jun 14, 2014)

ciao69 said:


> you see m8 where stereotyping can get u in trouble , .i could quite happily tear your fucking face off and my mam would happily watch . my da would prob assist and all my other relatives come along , cut ur cockoff and shove it down ur throat , shit thats more b.s


Good lord


----------



## William of Walworth (Jun 15, 2014)

ddraig said:


> William!! STOP digging man
> 
> *you are an eccentric exception!* nothing to do with not having kids



Agree with that bolded bit. Unsurprisingly cos I usually do agree with myself 

Not at all sure about the rest of your post but whatevers -- happy to let it rest.


----------



## Gavin Bl (Jun 16, 2014)

Wiiilllll - most people live in families, esp once you are out the bigger cities where singles/couples often end up esp in their younger years. the end. I'm sure you could say the same about Macclesfield, or Dundee, or Ashford, wherever.

Put the shovel down, mun


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## bendeus (Jun 16, 2014)

Gavin Bl said:


> Wiiilllll - most people live in families, esp once you are out the bigger cities where singles/couples often end up esp in their younger years. the end. I'm sure you could say the same about Macclesfield, or Dundee, or Ashford, wherever.
> 
> Put the shovel down, mun



Agreed. WoW's assertions are, frankly, bizarre.


----------



## xenon (Jun 16, 2014)

Well done WoW. A nutter bumped the thread, you then bump it 2 weeks later and will hence forth have loads of posters picking you up on that thing you wrote 18 months ago.


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## bendeus (Jun 17, 2014)

xenon said:


> Well done WoW. A nutter bumped the thread, you then bump it 2 weeks later and will hence forth have loads of posters picking you up on that thing you wrote 18 months ago.


That which is said on Urban can never be unsaid


----------

