# Fate of EU citizens in the UK post Brexit



## ska invita (Dec 17, 2018)

What is about to happen to the 3.5 million EU citizens living in the UK? For a start everyone needs to 'register' on this government app thing.

This article looks at people experiencing signing up
Britain’s E.U. Exit App Is About to Downgrade the Lives of 3.7 Million People
The key thing is how many people wont sign up, due to a range of barriers


> In order to cope with the volume of applications, which could reach some twenty thousand a day in the spring, the E.U. Settlement Scheme is intended to be almost entirely digital. Immigration advocates fear that this will disadvantage applicants who are poorer, older, and don’t speak much English. “It is almost designed for an educated civil servant that would have no problems navigating it,” Colin Yeo, an immigration barrister and blogger, told me.
> 
> Trevena translated the questions on the phone’s screen for Daniela. Each individual in the system, including children, must be linked to an e-mail address and a phone number—another source of anxiety for lawyers and campaigners. “Most of my young people use those ones that give you six months of free Internet and then you chuck it,” Trevena said. She stressed to Daniela and Beatriz the importance of updating their details. Mother and daughter wore matching pairs of sensible black shoes. Because they have been in the U.K. for only two years, they were applying for “pre-settled status,” which would allow them to stay in the country until 2023, when they could register permanently. “If you change your number, you need to call them and let them know. Otherwise you will get locked out of your status,” Trevena explained slowly. “You are going to need your status for every job, every house.”
> 
> ...



This looks at who are most vulnerable and what the barriers are
https://migrationobservatory.ox.ac....-failing-to-secure-their-rights-after-brexit/

This is an unprecedented attempt to sign up 'undocumented' poeple.
Simliar US schemes resulted in an average 60% sign up rate. UK government expect 100%.
Those who do not sign up will become illegal and ready for hostile environment deportation

Said better here


> The Home Office is aiming for a hundred-per-cent participation rate in the E.U. Settlement Scheme, although that is not what happens in this kind of program. Migrant regularizations, like the Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals program, in the U.S., or the amnesty for foreign workers in Spain, in 2005, typically have enrollment rates of between fifty and seventy-five per cent. (The Spanish program, which got up to seventy-seven per cent, after six attempts, was viewed as a triumph.)
> 
> No one knows why British officials are so confident. “We don’t think there has ever been any kind of exercise of this scale anywhere in the world,” Yeo told me. If ninety per cent of Britain’s E.U. nationals register before June 30, 2021, when the program ends, more than three hundred and fifty thousand people will still be undocumented, at the mercy of the U.K.’s so-called “hostile environment” toward irregular migrants. “They are going to be illegal on the day after the deadline,” Yeo told me. “Under current government policy, they need to be evicted, their bank accounts shut down, and they lose their jobs if they have got one.” That is what happened in the Windrush scandal, in which the victims of another botched regularization program—this time for immigrants from Britain’s colonies in the Caribbean—ended up losing their jobs, being denied medical care, and being threatened with deportation. “I have started to wonder whether I am wrong and they do understand what they are doing,” Yeo said. “And they just don’t care.”


This is the key line:
*EVEN If ninety per cent of Britain’s E.U. nationals register before June 30, 2021, when the program ends, more than three hundred and fifty thousand people will still be undocumented, at the mercy of the U.K.’s so-called “hostile environment” toward irregular migrants. “They are going to be illegal on the day after the deadline,”*

Fuck That.

Bear in mind people without British ciitzenship are already being denied housing and jobs at this time by employers and landlords.
UK landlords are turning away EU citizens
Europeans need not apply: evidence mounts of discrimination in UK
This is a crisis waiting to happen - and for some already happening

This may be a bit of a slow burning thread as the process will be drawn out - I think registartion officially kicks in in March.


Do we have any UK resident EU citiznes who post on the boards? Or friends and partners? Those closest to me have already left.


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## Pickman's model (Dec 17, 2018)

this *will* end well - the utter fuck up that's coming, that is, not this thread


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## StoneRoad (Dec 17, 2018)

And will the reverse process happen to UK citizens over the ditch, somewhere in Europe ?


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## littlebabyjesus (Dec 17, 2018)

I know people who've left and others who are planning to leave after being here more than 20 years. Also know two people who forked out the 1400 quid to apply for citizenship due to the uncertainty, one of whom still plans to fuck the fuck off. Doesn't feel welcome here any more. 

The piece has it exactly right that this is another Windrush scandal waiting to happen. It is also yet another layer of regulation and control. It fucking stinks, and not only for those directly involved, for all of us. This is what has angered me the most about this disgusting process, and the fact that May of all fucking people is in charge of it is just a kick in the fucking face.


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## Reno (Dec 17, 2018)

ska invita said:


> Do we have any UK resident EU citiznes who post on the boards? Or friends and partners? Those closest to me have already left.


Six months after the referendum result, I had sold my London flat and moved back to Germany after 33 years in the UK. Following the ongoing shit-show that is Brexit from a safe distance, it's the best decision I've made in a long time.

I have friends who are EU citizens who still live in the UK and others who have left. One of my best friends in London is German and she has family there, but now that her sons are grown up, even she is considering leaving.


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## spitfire (Dec 17, 2018)

My girlfriend is French (and my daughter as well despite being born in Whitechapel, we're not married). 

She's lived here and paid tax for 25 years and has said she's not paying any fucker any money to stay here.

I'm Irish but was born here so could probably wriggle through but fuck them, I'm not going on a register.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Dec 17, 2018)

My step-mother is Dutch, she's been here 30 odd years and is not planning on doing anything. tbf she is the most hostile human being I have ever met, so I doubt she'd notice if there was an increase in hostility towards EU citizens.


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## xenon (Dec 17, 2018)

It's what the people wanted... 

Ha, remember when David Davis was so anti ID cards... I wonder if he's got anything to say about this.


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## DexterTCN (Dec 17, 2018)

The Scottish (SNP) government said that they would pay the fee for any EU citizen up here who had to register.

The UK government responded by saying they would not accept this and the people have to pay it themselves.


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## ska invita (Dec 17, 2018)

spitfire said:


> I'm Irish but was born here so could probably wriggle through but fuck them, I'm not going on a register.


i wonder if theres any mileage in a noncompliance campaign? sounds risky

being "illegal" means bank accounts closed on you, fired from a job, no access to health care, deportation <hundreds of thousands of people about to be put in that situation


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## ska invita (Dec 17, 2018)

littlebabyjesus said:


> This is what has angered me the most about this disgusting process, and the fact that May of all fucking people is in charge of it is just a kick in the fucking face.


...and even without her Tory leaders respawn....and as to putting faith in Labour to do any better.

This process must be killed off before it runs, right?


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## littlebabyjesus (Dec 17, 2018)

ska invita said:


> ...and even without her Tory leaders respawn....and as to putting faith in Labour to do any better.
> 
> This process must be killed off before it runs, right?


Yes.


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## ska invita (Dec 17, 2018)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Yes.


Question is how.
I guess at least Norway+ as an option negates it.

I wonder what documentation resistance campaigns have been in the past (US especially i expect).

An issue to press on the Labour Party too (for what its worht)


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## The39thStep (Dec 17, 2018)

Well as UK citizen living in the EU I can't say I'm panicking tbh.I'll just fill in whatever form they require here


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## Riklet (Dec 17, 2018)

I wonder if they'll have their shitty app working for iPhones yet.

I know plenty of young Spanish people and other EU nationals in a few different places and all are a bit unsure or even concerned but very few of them are talking about leaving.  Then none of us have houses, kids etc really so it's not such a hard choice to make. Most are generally uncertain about their future but I haven't had anyone extolling the dramatic virtues of returning to France, Italy, Spain, Hungary or Portugal to me recently.  Plenty have moved here since Brexit in the past couple of years.

My impression is a fair few Polish people have left because the economy is definitely doing better there and the pound is weak.  I bet places like Lincolnshire it's more noticeable, or in NHS sectors etc.  Maybe I live in a bubble but having moved back to the England recently - I don't see/feel a hostile environment in the cities.  I'm on buses with people talking loudly or arguing in several different languages and not heard a peep out of any weirdos or racists.

Hoping to help out a housing union in the near future and discrimination against EU workers would def be something to watch out for and stand up against.


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## flypanam (Dec 17, 2018)

spitfire said:


> My girlfriend is French (and my daughter as well despite being born in Whitechapel, we're not married).
> 
> She's lived here and paid tax for 25 years and has said she's not paying any fucker any money to stay here.
> 
> I'm Irish but was born here so could probably wriggle through but fuck them, I'm not going on a register.



My wife is shitting it, she's Canadian she'll have  here 5 years in January she's frustrated because information about the roll out is pretty thin. The thing she's really worried about is getting somewhere to live if our lease isn't renewed.


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## andysays (Dec 17, 2018)

I work as a gardener for a London council. About one third of the workforce are non-UK EU nationals. None of them have expressed any concerns to me about what will happen in March, or about a more hostile atmosphere since the referendum. The council is clearly anticipating that they will still be working for the foreseeable future as out of six of us they paid for to go on a three day training course the other week, three were non-UK EU nationals.

Make of that what you will...


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Dec 17, 2018)

flypanam said:


> My wife is shitting it, she's Canadian she'll have  here 5 years in January she's frustrated because information about the roll out is pretty thin. The thing she's really worried about is getting somewhere to live if our lease isn't renewed.



How is a Canadian affected by this?


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## flypanam (Dec 17, 2018)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> How is a Canadian affected by this?



I'm Irish and she's here as an EU family member


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Dec 17, 2018)

flypanam said:


> I'm Irish and she's here as an EU family member



Will she not also be here as a family member of an Irish person?


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## flypanam (Dec 17, 2018)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Will she not also be here as a family member of an Irish person?


Nope. Settled and pre-settled status for EU citizens and their families


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## RubyBlue (Dec 17, 2018)

This scheme was trialled in Liverpool and has now been rolled out across (most?) universities. My partner works for LSE and they are paying for all their European staff who apply. He completed his application today and intends staying in the UK after being here 20+ years.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Dec 17, 2018)

flypanam said:


> Nope. Settled and pre-settled status for EU citizens and their families



How odd, she'll need to apply and you won't.


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## flypanam (Dec 17, 2018)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> How odd, she'll need to apply and you won't.



CTA for you. Worst happens is that we move back to Ireland.


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## tim (Dec 17, 2018)

spitfire said:


> My girlfriend is French (and my daughter as well despite being born in Whitechapel, we're not married).
> 
> She's lived here and paid tax for 25 years and has said she's not paying any fucker any money to stay here.
> 
> I'm Irish but was born here so could probably wriggle through but fuck them, I'm not going on a register.


If you're an Irish citizen your right to live here will be unaffected because your right of residence is guaranteed by the 1949 Ireland act, which says you are not a foreigner


> *Republic of Ireland not a foreign country.*
> (1)It is hereby declared that, notwithstanding that the Republic of Ireland is not part of His Majesty’s dominions, the Republic of Ireland is not a foreign country for the purposes of any law in force in any part of the United Kingdom or in any colony, protectorate or United Kingdom trust territory, whether by virtue of a rule of law or of an Act of Parliament or any other enactment or instrument whatsoever, whether passed or made before or after the passing of this Act, and references in any Act of Parliament, other enactment or instrument whatsoever, whether passed or made before or after the passing of this Act, to foreigners, aliens, foreign countries, and foreign or foreign-built ships or aircraft shall be construed accordingly


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## spitfire (Dec 17, 2018)

tim said:


> If you're an Irish citizen your right to live here will be unaffected because your right of residence is guaranteed by the 1949 Ireland act, which says you are not a foreigner



Well I'm alright then. I guess the other 2 will just fuck off to france. Sorted.


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## ska invita (Dec 17, 2018)

andysays said:


> a more hostile atmosphere since the referendum.





Riklet said:


> I don't see/feel a hostile environment in the cities.


not sure if you are picking up on my use of the word hostile - that was referring to official government policy of Hostility


andysays said:


> None of them have expressed any concerns to me about what will happen in March,


I tried to make it 100% clear in the OP, many will sign up and fingers crossed the reality of that won't be a nightmare for them - but hundreds of thousands won't for reasons made clear in the OP. These are the people to be most worried about and to stand up for

Anyone with recent experinece of the home office in regards right to remain will know that even doing everything right can sometimes not be enough.


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## zahir (Dec 17, 2018)

What happens to an EU citizen living here and planning to marry someone from back home? Will their partner have the right to Iive here, or will it depend on their income?


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## andysays (Dec 17, 2018)

ska invita said:


> not sure if you are picking up on my use of the word hostile - that was referring to official government policy of Hostility
> 
> I tried to make it 100% clear in the OP, many will sign up and fingers crossed the reality of that won't be a nightmare for them - but hundreds of thousands won't for reasons made clear in the OP. These are the people to be most worried about and to stand up for
> 
> Anyone with recent experinece of the home office in regards right to remain will know that even doing everything right can sometimes not be enough.



I'm not suggesting that my colleagues are necessarily typical - that the fact that they are in secure employment with a public sector employer means they are likely more secure and feeling more secure than if this was not the case.

But I really don't think it's accurate or helpful to suggest (as your OP and the headline of the article you've linked to both do) that the position of all the 3.5 million EU citizens living in the UK is threatened come March 29th next year.


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## ska invita (Dec 17, 2018)

zahir said:


> What happens to an EU citizen living here and planning to marry someone from back home? Will their partner have the right to Iive here? Will it depend on income?


my understanding is: Depends from when zahir, said partner needs 5 years on the clock here at this point, so No. But if said EU citizen can eventually get settled status then from then they would have to go through the usual channels for a spouse which means having a big income <<<another bullshit law that needs binning immediately - one rule for the wealthy another for the poorer.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Dec 17, 2018)

zahir said:


> What happens to an EU citizen living here and planning to marry someone from back home? Will their partner have the right to Iive here, or will it depend on their income?



Would imagine it will depend on income, same as for a non-EU person.


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## ska invita (Dec 17, 2018)

andysays said:


> But I really don't think it's accurate or helpful to suggest (as your OP and the headline of the article you've linked to both do) that the position of all the 3.5 million EU citizens living in the UK is threatened come March 29th next year.


My OP made it perfectly clear who was vulnerable. I even put in bold



> "This is the key line:
> *EVEN If ninety per cent of Britain’s E.U. nationals register before June 30, 2021, when the program ends, more than three hundred and fifty thousand people will still be undocumented, at the mercy of the U.K.’s so-called “hostile environment” toward irregular migrants. “They are going to be illegal on the day after the deadline,” "*


*
*
Sorry I dont subedit the New Yorker.


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## zahir (Dec 17, 2018)

ska invita said:


> my understanding is: Depends from when zahir, said partner needs 5 years on the clock here at this point, so No. But if said EU citizen can eventually get settled status then from then they would have to go through the usual channels for a spouse which means having a big income <<<another bullshit law that needs binning immediately - one rule for the wealthy another for the poorer.





Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Would imagine it will depend on income, same as for a non-EU person.



Thanks. So for any single EU citizen living here that’s actually a very big change regardless of whether they can get settled status themselves.


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## ska invita (Dec 17, 2018)

zahir said:


> Thanks. So for any single EU citizen living here that’s actually a very big change regardless of whether they can get settled status themselves.


Not sure what you mean exactly. Up until now you didnt need to get settled status. Now to get it you have to have been here five years (or at least say you have) and do the App process. Perhaps the spouse in your question can move here before 2021 and just apply via the app. I cant imagine the Home Office are willing or can check that people really have been here for five years, especially with millions applying. That said best not to take advice from a random off the internet (especially as this is all stuff Ive gleaned rather than know about) and get proper legal advice!


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## Spymaster (Dec 17, 2018)

andysays said:


> But I really don't think it's accurate or helpful to suggest (as your OP and the headline of the article you've linked to both do) that the position of all the 3.5 million EU citizens living in the UK is threatened come March 29th next year.


Tell that to them. This is just one more nightmare for another section of people in a whole litany of nightmares that will produce practically fuck all benefit.

I'm wondering if this is the first time in history that a nation has voted to make their country worse off in pretty much every substantive way! You can kind of understand where right wingers are coming from ... plenty of discomfort for Johnny Foreigner; fuck 'em off back home etc., but _supposed lefties_ .... ????


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## Yossarian (Dec 17, 2018)

ska invita said:


> I cant imagine the Home Office are willing or can check that people really have been here for five years, especially with millions applying. That said best not to take advice from a random off the internet (especially as this is all stuff Ive gleaned rather than know about) and get proper legal advice!



I would make sure everything's as up-to-date and truthful as possible - it's Home Office policy to try to keep migrant numbers down by making the process as difficult and discouraging as possible and by giving itself all kinds of reasons to reject people.


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## ska invita (Dec 17, 2018)

Yossarian said:


> I would make sure everything's as up-to-date and truthful as possible - it's Home Office policy to try to keep migrant numbers down by making the process as difficult and discouraging as possible and by giving itself all kinds of reasons to reject people.


Yes definitely ingnore my advice about lying! (though it might work - should become apparent how best to play it by later in 2019)


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## andysays (Dec 17, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> Tell that to them...



Tell what to who? I'm not seeking to tell anyone what to think or do. I'm attempting to report on what appears to be the position for my non-UK EU colleagues, without claiming that their situation can be extrapolated to 3.5 million others (although I would suggest that there are significant numbers of non-UK EU workers in Britain who have been here for some years and are in reasonably secure employment like my colleagues). 

I can understand that many people are concerned about what the future may hold for them, but the idea that the Home Office is about to round up and expel all 3.5 million is frankly ridiculous.

Would you like to tell my colleagues that their lack of concern is mistaken and their lives are about to become a nightmare?


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## ska invita (Dec 17, 2018)

andysays said:


> the idea that the Home Office is about to round up and expel all 3.5 million is frankly ridiculous.


Youve really destroyed that straw man - well done  
powerful


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## not-bono-ever (Dec 17, 2018)

It’s not what is being said about this rollout that concerns me but what is not being said. At the point there is s managed database of that soecific group, that is when the pressure can begin to be exerted on them.

I wouldn’t trust this administration to act in any way fairly if they can make capital out of it


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## littlebabyjesus (Dec 17, 2018)

not-bono-ever said:


> It’s not what is being said about this rollout that concerns me but what is not being said. At the point there is s managed database of that soecific group, that is when the pressure can begin to be exerted on them.
> 
> I wouldn’t trust this administration to act in any way fairly if they can make capital out of it


Yep. It's another stick with which to beat people as and when.


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## Spymaster (Dec 17, 2018)

andysays said:


> Would you like to tell my colleagues that their lack of concern is mistaken and their lives are about to become a nightmare?


Well I don't have the ability to do that do I? Of the dozens of such people that I'm aware of though, few lack any concern whatsoever and some are really rather worried. Understandably so. Of course they won't all be thrown out, but all of their lives _will_ be affected and at the moment nobody knows to what extent. What I can say for certain is that they'd all prefer that this wasn't happening.


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## littlebabyjesus (Dec 17, 2018)

Looking at that tricky question 'What does brexit mean/What is brexit for?' This is the answer. This is what brexit means. This is what brexit is for. And it fucking stinks.


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## not-bono-ever (Dec 17, 2018)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Yep. It's another stick with which to beat people as and when.


 
We have seen the attempted outsourcing of migration policing issues to teachers and ((((landlords)))) in recent years- it’s not a massive step to use this information to begin to exclude people from services and support if they have not registered or there is a problem with their papers.  This isn’t the end of the story by a long shot


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## SovietArmy (Dec 17, 2018)

I from Lithuania and married English citizen for 16 years. I don't want English passport.  No idea how affect me.  Brexit is shit anyway.


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## Spymaster (Dec 17, 2018)

SovietArmy said:


> I don't want English passport.


Join the club.


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## ska invita (Dec 17, 2018)

not-bono-ever said:


> We have seen the attempted outsourcing of migration policing issues to teachers and ((((landlords)))) in recent years- it’s not a massive step to use this information to begin to exclude people from services and support if they have not registered or there is a problem with their papers.  This isn’t the end of the story by a long shot


Yes, it'll also stop them from jumping the queue. Sorry did I say that out loud, I apologise. (satire)


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## SovietArmy (Dec 17, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> Join the club.



What club?


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## Yossarian (Dec 17, 2018)

I wouldn't say it's panic stations, but anybody whose immigration status is now going to be dependent on a government that doesn't know what the fuck it's doing from one day to the next and doesn't give a shit about the well-being of British citizens, let alone those who can't vote, would be wise to stay on top of developments ... and if things are done differently in their countries, to forget about any notions they may have had of somewhere like the Home Office being a helpful kind of place that is going to try to make things as easy as possible for them.


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## ska invita (Dec 17, 2018)

Yossarian said:


> I wouldn't say it's panic stations, but anybody whose immigration status is now going to be dependent on a government that doesn't know what the fuck it's doing from one day to the next and doesn't give a shit about the well-being of British citizens, let alone those who can't vote, would be wise to stay on top of developments ... and if things are done differently in their countries, to forget about any notions they may have had of somewhere like the Home Office being a helpful kind of place that is going to try to make things as easy as possible for them.


I know what you mean but i think it IS panic stations. In three months time a process will begin that by its end will leave tens, more likeley hundreds of thousands of people with illegal status in the uk - people who are here completely legally. I think it needs stopping before it starts, and that requires some serious urgency if not panic. I must admit Ive only just realised the implication of the registration process today.


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## T & P (Dec 17, 2018)

I wouldn’t say i’m not concerned at all-far from it- but still remain fairy confident that even in the case of an acrimonious no-deal Brexit, my residency status would *surely* not be at risk. I’m not wealthy but i’ve lived here for more than twenty years and i’ve been fully employed from the off.

Bottom line: if I were suddenly deemed not ‘worthy’ enough to be granted settled status, the same would surely apply to just about every other EU resident apart from presumably the wealthy. So easily 95% + of us kicked out.and that would undoubtedly spark such a clusterfuck and tit-for-tat retaliatory repatriations of Britons living in the EU, governments could actually be overthrown and serous unrest would be widespread. Nobody wants that.

I guess a more likely bad scenario is that they move the goalposts and say as well as five years’ residency one will need  to be in employment, or in employment and earning a high salary, which would get rid of many or most of us. But again, I much doubt it’d happen.

Far more likely is that many UK-EU mixed families are going to be fucked up, and some perhaps even split up, by Brexit. That is an indescribable tragedy and, without wishing to turn this thread into another Remain Vs Leave argument, something that Lexiters and those who support Brexit and are not prejudiced, should give serious thought when considering the pros and cons of it.


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## Dogsauce (Dec 17, 2018)

My partner went through the citizenship process a couple of years ago because of worries about all this, before the referendum there was still enough shit being stirred for her to fork out over a grand to get rid of the anxiety. Can’t find the certificate now after two house moves and it’s something like £200 to get a replacement  That’s the likes of Farage dipping in our pockets.

Both kids had their births registered here and in the EU so have dual nationality too, my worry is in future when we visit the in-laws it’ll be me having to go through the five hour cavity search fuckabout queue at the airport while the three of them swiftly pass through the eight items or fewer EU citizens queue. Ah, the sunny uplands


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## Puddy_Tat (Dec 17, 2018)

I'm a British citizen, so not directly my problem, but quite a few British citizens (of Caribbean origin) thought they were OK here until fairly recently...


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## T & P (Dec 17, 2018)

How long does a mixed nationality couple have to be married before the foreign spouse might be given permanent residency, no questions asked or preconditions, if they want to move to the country of the other spouse, in particular if they're not in employment?

In other words, if there is a British man living the Continent and married to a EU national for a couple of years, and they decide to permanently move back here, would she be allowed without a job? And vice versa of course. Not to mention cohabiting couples. Or same-sex married couples moving to a country that still doesn't recognise gay marriage?

Unless all countries concerned do the decent thing regardless of the event deal or lack thereof, I truly fear Brexit will likely ruin the lives of a great many people


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## pseudonarcissus (Dec 17, 2018)

T & P said:


> How long does a mixed nationality couple have to be married before the foreign spouse might be given permanent residency, no questions asked or preconditions, if they want to move to the country of the other spouse, in particular if they're not in employment?
> 
> In other words, if there is a British man living the Continent and married to a EU national for a couple of years, and they decide to permanently move back here, would she be allowed without a job? And vice versa of course. Not to mention cohabiting couples. Or same-sex married couples moving to a country that still doesn't recognise gay marriage?
> 
> Unless all countries concerned do the decent thing regardless of the event deal or lack thereof, I truly fear Brexit will likely ruin the lives of a great many people



The British spouse must have a job earning more than £18,600, or £60+k in savings to start the process. There is no recourse to public funds until indefinite leave to remain, which takes 5 years. You have to pay a tax for the NHS. There is a language test requirement that seems to change every year. There is the pub quiz “Life in the UK” test which seems to take a rather antiquated public school history book as its source. I don’t know anyone who has successfully applied without paying thousands to lawyers.
 All this however long your married. 
If the non-Brit is offered a job earning a million and the Brit does not work outside the home...no way.

I left. I applied for a permanent Brazilian visa, based on a civil partnership, on a Wednesday and had the visa on the Friday.
I don’t imagine I will return to the UK.
I quite fancy a Portuguese golden visa though. I think I’ll sell the flat in London next year.


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## ska invita (Dec 17, 2018)

pseudonarcissus said:


> The British spouse must have a job earning more than £18,600, or £60+k in savings to start the process. There is no recourse to public funds until indefinite leave to remain, which takes 5 years. You have to pay a tax for the NHS. There is a language test requirement that seems to change every year. There is the pub quiz “Life in the UK” test which seems to take a rather antiquated public school history book as its source. I don’t know anyone who has successfully applied without paying thousands to lawyers.
> All this however long your married.
> If the non-Brit is offered a job earning a million and the Brit does not work outside the home...no way.
> 
> ...


its an outrageous state of affairs  another knock on effect of the endless migrant hate mongering.  Anyone remember under whose watch these rules were brought in? Wasnt it T May at the home office?



> In 2015, it was estimated that the £18,600 threshold excludes 41 per cent of the British working population from bringing a foreign spouse to live in Britain, including 55 per cent of women. The threshold rises to £22,400 if there is one or more non-European-born child in the family – and the income of the non-European partner does not count towards the threshold. Tories just quietly hiked up minimum income threshold to bring in foreign spouses
> ...
> Labour has said it would scrap the threshold, stating it does not believe that “family life should be protected only for the wealthy”.


----------



## T & P (Dec 17, 2018)

pseudonarcissus said:


> The British spouse must have a job earning more than £18,600, or £60+k in savings to start the process. There is no recourse to public funds until indefinite leave to remain, which takes 5 years. You have to pay a tax for the NHS. There is a language test requirement that seems to change every year. There is the pub quiz “Life in the UK” test which seems to take a rather antiquated public school history book as its source. I don’t know anyone who has successfully applied without paying thousands to lawyers.
> All this however long your married.
> If the non-Brit is offered a job earning a million and the Brit does not work outside the home...no way.
> 
> ...


So retired couples will be stuck in one country forever?


----------



## pseudonarcissus (Dec 17, 2018)

T & P said:


> So retired couples will be stuck in one country forever?


Only if their pension is less than £18,600. Poor people aren’t welcome. It really is a gruesome system that Mrs May invented. 
Let’s see what a few years of recession does.


----------



## Gramsci (Dec 17, 2018)

T & P said:


> I wouldn’t say i’m not concerned at all-far from it- but still remain fairy confident that even in the case of an acrimonious no-deal Brexit, my residency status would *surely* not be at risk. I’m not wealthy but i’ve lived here for more than twenty years and i’ve been fully employed from the off.
> 
> Bottom line: if I were suddenly deemed not ‘worthy’ enough to be granted settled status, the same would surely apply to just about every other EU resident apart from presumably the wealthy. So easily 95% + of us kicked out.and that would undoubtedly spark such a clusterfuck and tit-for-tat retaliatory repatriations of Britons living in the EU, governments could actually be overthrown and serous unrest would be widespread. Nobody wants that.
> 
> ...



Same thing applied to Commonwealth citizens. As you asked I probably know that didn't work out thirty years later.


----------



## Gramsci (Dec 17, 2018)

My partner is Spanish.

I am British. I don't earn a lot of money.

My partner came here pre Brexit vote.

I'm really unsure about her status.

Looks to me that the so called deal will mean that those who earn plus thirty thousand will be ok.

What I want to know is if UK goes for hard no deal Brexit what will be status of EU nationals?

I don't earn enough to justify her status here. If no deal means so called level playing field between EU and non EU. That is racist immigration policy so called " fairly" distributed to all possible immigrants.


----------



## pseudonarcissus (Dec 17, 2018)

Gramsci said:


> My partner is Spanish.
> 
> I am British. I don't earn a lot of money.
> 
> ...



You don’t have to justify her status! She has rights!!

She needs to register and she will get something equivalent to ILR. I’m sure she will be fine. If you’re lucky she might take you to Spain when the UK becomes unbearable


----------



## Gramsci (Dec 17, 2018)

ska invita said:


> What is about to happen to the 3.5 million EU citizens living in the UK? For a start everyone needs to 'register' on this government app thing.
> 
> This article looks at people experiencing signing up
> Britain’s E.U. Exit App Is About to Downgrade the Lives of 3.7 Million People
> ...



Yes friends and partner.

Its shit.

As hundred percent Brit I feel ashamed of this country. 

Brexit has been insult to my friends ( and partner) who came here to work. These immigrant from other EU countries are my friends.


----------



## Gramsci (Dec 17, 2018)

pseudonarcissus said:


> You don’t have to justify her status! She has rights!!
> 
> She needs to register and she will get something equivalent to ILR. I’m sure she will be fine. If you’re lucky she might take you to Spain when the UK becomes unbearable



This is bollox.


----------



## Gramsci (Dec 17, 2018)

pseudonarcissus said:


> You don’t have to justify her status! She has rights!!
> 
> She needs to register and she will get something equivalent to ILR. I’m sure she will be fine. If you’re lucky she might take you to Spain when the UK becomes unbearable



What Rights?

Deal isn't done yet.


----------



## Gramsci (Dec 17, 2018)

pseudonarcissus said:


> You don’t have to justify her status! She has rights!!
> 
> She needs to register and she will get something equivalent to ILR. I’m sure she will be fine. If you’re lucky she might take you to Spain when the UK becomes unbearable



Perhaps she is quite happy here. In job where she has prospects and further training.

Now with Brexit half the fucking country don't want here her here. Which is how she shes it. Along with my Polish friends .

As 100 % British I'm livid. Half the people I know are immigrants.


----------



## Gramsci (Dec 17, 2018)

StoneRoad said:


> And will the reverse process happen to UK citizens over the ditch, somewhere in Europe ?



I as listening to radio. Legal firm were saying that other EU countries had not been clear on British people in their countries.

Makes sense to me. If I was Spanish government I would wait to see how my nationals were treated in UK post Brexit before making any guarantee on British nationals in Spain.


----------



## Humberto (Dec 17, 2018)

And they say chivalry is dead:

*Britain's longest serving Afghan military translator is attacked by 'Taliban gunmen' after being refused sanctuary in the UK*

There are loads of these, alongside the Windrush scandal also. You can't trust them in other words.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 18, 2018)

pseudonarcissus said:


> You don’t have to justify her status! She has rights!!
> 
> She needs to register and she will get something equivalent to ILR. I’m sure she will be fine. If you’re lucky she might take you to Spain when the UK becomes unbearable


You're telling someone they can always fuck off elsewhere? Really. Why try to justify this shite, or try to minimise it as you have done here? Just call it out for what it is. It is the single most disgusting thing about brexit. And we all knew this was going to happen, or something similar. This is what a tory brexit has always meant. It's not wisdom after the event. Anyone who supports this, or even just tries to excuse or downplay it, is no political friend of mine. You place yourself on the other side from me if you support this fucking shit.


----------



## pocketscience (Dec 18, 2018)

littlebabyjesus said:


> You're telling someone they can always fuck off elsewhere?
> Really. Why try to justify this shite, or try to minimise it as you have done here? Just call it out for what it is. It is the single most disgusting thing about brexit. And we all knew this was going to happen, or something similar. This is what a tory brexit has always meant. It's not wisdom after the event. Anyone who supports this, or even just tries to excuse or downplay it, is no political friend of mine. You place yourself on the other side from me if you support this fucking shit.


Luckily most europeans are fully aquainted with residence registation processes, seeing as most of them are legally requiired to do it in their home countries.


----------



## Riklet (Dec 18, 2018)

Humberto said:


> And they say chivalry is dead:
> 
> *Britain's longest serving Afghan military translator is attacked by 'Taliban gunmen' after being refused sanctuary in the UK*
> 
> There are loads of these, alongside the Windrush scandal also. You can't trust them in other words.



This has nothing to do with this thread though.

Aside from the fact Teresa May made life hard for non-EU immigrants before when home secretary and is predictable as ever.


----------



## likesfish (Dec 18, 2018)

pocketscience said:


> Luckily most europeans are fully aquainted with residence registation processes, seeing as most of them are legally requiired to do it in their home countries.




yes but those are long established and simple routines like an ID card you go to the town hall give them a photo they give you an ID Card.
 rather than the "innovative" and economical capita "improved" system UK will impose that will make Khaka weep tears of Joy and Look to Orwell considering a turbo for his grave


----------



## tim (Dec 18, 2018)

littlebabyjesus said:


> You're telling someone they can always fuck off elsewhere? Really. Why try to justify this shite, or try to minimise it as you have done here? Just call it out for what it is. It is the single most disgusting thing about brexit. And we all knew this was going to happen, or something similar. This is what a tory brexit has always meant. It's not wisdom after the event. Anyone who supports this, or even just tries to excuse or downplay it, is no political friend of mine. You place yourself on the other side from me if you support this fucking shit.



Are you stupid or are you deliberately misinterpreting as a justification for self-indulgent grandstanding?

Pocket science's faith in "Rights" may be a tad naïve, but the comments about the advantages of having an EU national partner if things go bad here are similar to those made all over these boards.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 18, 2018)

tim said:


> Are you stupid or are you deliberately misinterpreting as a justification for self-indulgent grandstanding?
> 
> Pocket science's faith in "Rights" may be a tad naïve, but the comments about the advantages of having an EU national partner if things go bad here are similar to those made all over these boards.


Why does it always have to be this or that? Why can't lbj be both?


----------



## tim (Dec 18, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> Why does it always have to be this or that? Why can't lbj be both?



Because I'm a charitable chap and like to give even the most blatant bounders the benefit of the doubt.


----------



## pocketscience (Dec 18, 2018)

tim said:


> Are you stupid or are you deliberately misinterpreting as a justification for self-indulgent grandstanding?
> 
> Pocket science's faith in "Rights" may be a tad naïve, but the comments about the advantages of having an EU national partner if things go bad here are similar to those made all over these boards.


It was pseudonarcissus  but your succinctly made point stands never the less


----------



## TopCat (Dec 18, 2018)

ska invita said:


> What is about to happen to the 3.5 million EU citizens living in the UK? For a start everyone needs to 'register' on this government app thing.
> 
> This article looks at people experiencing signing up
> Britain’s E.U. Exit App Is About to Downgrade the Lives of 3.7 Million People
> ...


Housemate is Polish. Her wages at Pret have gone up.


----------



## ska invita (Dec 18, 2018)

pocketscience said:


> Luckily most europeans are fully aquainted with residence registation processes, seeing as most of them are legally requiired to do it in their home countries.


Lucky! 

If just 1% don't register that's 35000 people made illegal overnight. Migration Observation link in the OP carefully guess through the barriers that will mean some don't register. 

Care to have a predictive guess how many will fall through the gaps? What's an acceptable number for you that makes Mays Deal worth it?

For me now it's zero. This time last week I was resigned to Mays deal passing, thinking at least EU citizens here will have the right to remain. But that's only in theory it turns out. In practice somewhere between tens and hundreds of thousands will be made illegal. 
Anything beyond Norway at this stage will be shitting on those people and greatly inflating the already sick deportation culture in the uk


----------



## pocketscience (Dec 18, 2018)

likesfish said:


> yes but those are long established and simple routines like an ID card you go to the town hall give them a photo they give you an ID Card.
> rather than the "innovative" and economical capita "improved" system UK will impose that will make Khaka weep tears of Joy and Look to Orwell considering a turbo for his grave


Established or not, anyone who's had the displeasure of dealing with the convoluted intricacies of German beurocracy, won't be calling it simple.
I've told the story here before about a spanish aquaintance of mine that was deported from Germany for not having health insurance (private is mandatory) after being registered for 3 months. The thing is, she'd worked the whole time but her german employer hadn't paid her wages or HI contributions. She had to take the case to the civil courts as a pay dispute but couldn't contest it because 'the system' saw her as an illeagal (all this despite EU freedom of movement).
Some german friends helping her out did some research and found this isn't an uncommon story. 
The conspiratorially minded could almost be forgiven for thinking the state is in cohorts with unscrupulous employers.


----------



## ska invita (Dec 18, 2018)

TopCat said:


> Housemate is Polish. Her wages at Pret have gone up.


And why is that?
Net immigration to the UK is still up from 2016 by several hundred thousand people.
Are you taking credit for a no doubt massive pay increase because you voted for a Tory Brexit, and they're doing such a great job on increasing workers conditions ever since?


----------



## pocketscience (Dec 18, 2018)

ska invita said:


> Lucky!
> 
> If just 1% don't register that's 35000 people made illegal overnight. Migration Observation link in the OP carefully guess through the barriers that will mean some don't register.
> 
> ...


Admittedly, I was being sarcy saying "Lucky".
I hate the idea of registation etc, but the point remains, the UK is implementing a system that was born in, and is widly practised across the EU.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 18, 2018)

ska invita said:


> And why is that?
> Net immigration to the UK is still up from 2016 by several hundred thousand people.
> Are you taking credit for a no doubt massive pay increase because you voted for a Tory Brexit, and they're doing such a great job on increasing workers conditions ever since?


She said they have relied on a steady stream of new people and since this seems to be less apparent they are paying more to retain people with high productivity.


----------



## DexterTCN (Dec 18, 2018)

This is from over a year ago, sorry if it's already been posted.

Brussels investigates UK over deported EU citizens


----------



## Spymaster (Dec 18, 2018)

TopCat said:


> She said they have relied on a steady stream of new people and since this seems to be less apparent they are paying more to retain people with high productivity.


Sounds like she’s talking bollocks, tbh. Was it just her that had the pay rise? What does she do for Pret? They have fixed rates of pay for their shop workers. Is she saying that she or her outlet are ‘high producers’ and are therefore being financially rewarded to a higher level than other people/stores? And furthermore, bosses have shared their Brexit employment and retention strategy with her? What form did this pay rise take?


----------



## pocketscience (Dec 18, 2018)

DexterTCN said:


> This is from over a year ago, sorry if it's already been posted.
> 
> Brussels investigates UK over deported EU citizens


This is from over 4 years ago.
'Unemployed EU citizens can be expelled'


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 18, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> What form did this pay rise take?


ime pay rises usually take the form of money


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 18, 2018)

pocketscience said:


> This is from over 4 years ago.
> 'Unemployed EU citizens can be expelled'


nothing new there, in the nineteenth century irish people who'd fallen on hard times in england were frequently deported back to ireland. of course this didn't work the other way


----------



## Spymaster (Dec 18, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> ime pay rises usually take the form of money


A bonus payment, base salary increase, shortened hours, better overtime rates ...  ?


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 18, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> A bonus payment, base salary increase, shortened hours, better overtime rates ...  ?


a pay rise is more likely to be a rise in pay than a bonus payment. a decrease in hours is less likely to be a pay rise and more likely to see a decrease in income


----------



## ska invita (Dec 18, 2018)

TopCat said:


> She said they have relied on a steady stream of new people and since this seems to be less apparent they are paying more to retain people with high productivity.



Maybe post it on the Lexit What Is To Be Done thread as a success story, it gives us all hope.

Anyhow im guessing you're imaging there are  less foreign workers here, less competition, better wages. Doesn't hold up as net immigration is up several hundred thousand. 

Your friends 10p wage increase aside, how does this relate to a mass of people about to be made illegal in 2021? Maybe that 10p an hour makes it worth it?


----------



## Yossarian (Dec 18, 2018)

Seems like this scheme to do it all through an app is going to be particularly hard on older people - my mother-in-law is widowed, German, has lived in Scotland for decades, and has no idea how to use a computer. 

She's got us to help her navigate the process, but a lot of other people in her situation are probably going to fall through the cracks and I doubt they'll be getting much sympathy from the government - I give it about two years before we're hearing about civil servants being given targets for the number of residency requests from EU citizens they're supposed to reject.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 18, 2018)

tim said:


> Are you stupid or are you deliberately misinterpreting as a justification for self-indulgent grandstanding?
> 
> Pocket science's faith in "Rights" may be a tad naïve, but the comments about the advantages of having an EU national partner if things go bad here are similar to those made all over these boards.


In the context it was clearly said to minimise the importance of this issue. Similar to a fair few posts on here.


----------



## ska invita (Dec 18, 2018)

pocketscience said:


> Admittedly, I was being sarcy saying "Lucky".
> I hate the idea of registation etc, but the point remains, the UK is implementing a system that was born in, and is widly practised across the EU.


Europeans... Very good at filling in forms...lucky that, good skill, gonna need it


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 18, 2018)

ska invita said:


> Europeans... Very good at filling in forms...lucky that, good skill, gonna need it


the british aren't that bad at it either, as they too have to face the tricky test of the universal credit application


----------



## pocketscience (Dec 18, 2018)

mad that it's taken the UK's leaving of the EU for it to implement a system that's widespread in the EU.
Brexit reaches peak paradox


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 18, 2018)

pocketscience said:


> mad that it's taken the UK's leaving of the EU for it to implement a system that's widespread in the EU.
> Brexit reaches peak paradox


you'll love what happens next


----------



## DexterTCN (Dec 18, 2018)

pocketscience said:


> This is from over 4 years ago.
> 'Unemployed EU citizens can be expelled'


Can you give me a one sentence breakdown of the German article?  Maybe something like "fuck all is happening but we might decide to do something in the future, but then we didn't"

I posted about current deportations of EU citizens from the UK.  Your replies are...well never mind just now, I'll see what else you post.


----------



## pocketscience (Dec 18, 2018)

ska invita said:


> Europeans... Very good at filling in forms...lucky that, good skill, gonna need it


Everyone. not just europeans.
Go and live in a different country anyehere in the world and get asked to fill out forms shocker.
The UK was the exception.


----------



## pocketscience (Dec 18, 2018)

DexterTCN said:


> Can you give me a one sentence breakdown of the German article?  Maybe something like "fuck all is happening but we might decide to do something in the future, but then we didn't"
> 
> I posted about current deportations of EU citizens from the UK.  Your replies are...well never mind just now, I'll see what else you post.


I gave a first hand account of it happening. it's real.


pocketscience said:


> Established or not, anyone who's had the displeasure of dealing with the convoluted intricacies of German beurocracy, won't be calling it simple.
> I've told the story here before about a spanish aquaintance of mine that was deported from Germany for not having health insurance (private is mandatory) after being registered for 3 months. The thing is, she'd worked the whole time but her german employer hadn't paid her wages or HI contributions. She had to take the case to the civil courts as a pay dispute but couldn't contest it because 'the system' saw her as an illeagal (all this despite EU freedom of movement).
> Some german friends helping her out did some research and found this isn't an uncommon story.
> The conspiratorially minded could almost be forgiven for thinking the state is in cohorts with unscrupulous employers.


that was over a decade ago


----------



## Yossarian (Dec 18, 2018)

I thought the OP did a good job of setting out the numerous areas where there are causes of concern - "they just need to fill in forms" isn't an argument much stronger than "those who did nothing wrong have nothing to fear."


----------



## Spymaster (Dec 18, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> a pay rise is more likely to be a rise in pay than a bonus payment. a decrease in hours is less likely to be a pay rise and more likely to see a decrease in income


Perhaps. The point is that Pret pay according to a fixed scale.


> We pay our lovely Team Members £8.25 an hour in London and other expensive cities. After 12 weeks training, Team Members can earn an additional weekly mystery shopper bonus of £1 per hour (on average, 85% of our teams receive this bonus every week).


So is she now on more than £8.25/hour; being given the extra quid anyway; something else; what's happening?

And Pret's analysts have concluded that prospective employee footfall has _already_ reduced to such a level that they need to make salary increases now, to retain staff before we've even left the EU, might not at all, and in any case are a year or two ahead of meaningful restrictions on EU migration actually being implemented? Then they tell their shop staff but not the financial markets or the business press? 

Sounds like TC's being wound up.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 18, 2018)

ska invita said:


> Maybe post it on the Lexit What Is To Be Done thread as a success story, it gives us all hope.
> 
> Anyhow im guessing you're imaging there are  less foreign workers here, less competition, better wages. Doesn't hold up as net immigration is up several hundred thousand.
> 
> Your friends 10p wage increase aside, how does this relate to a mass of people about to be made illegal in 2021? Maybe that 10p an hour makes it worth it?


Ten p an hour? Your imagination is feverish.


----------



## pocketscience (Dec 18, 2018)

Yossarian said:


> I thought the OP did a good job of setting out the numerous areas where there are causes of concern - "they just need to fill in forms" isn't an argument much stronger than "those who did nothing wrong have nothing to fear."


I agree, the OP is totally justified and there is cause for concern that some will fall through the cracks, namely the more vulnerable like OAPs ect.
I also totally agree with the advice (from you maybe?) that it's vital that those impacted stay on top of the situation and follow developments.
What isn't helpfull on a thread like this, and it's what led to my 'fill out forms' comment, is the rightious indignation and grandstanding of lbj about how disgusting this particular process is, and how baby-eating brexiters need to burn in hell for eternity because of the inconvenience caused (paradoxically to those whos country also sets out said inconveniences for forrins _and their own citizens_).


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 18, 2018)

pocketscience said:


> I agree, the OP is totally justified and there is cause for concern that some will fall through the cracks, namely the more vulnerable like OAPs ect.
> I also totally agree with the advice (from you maybe?) that it's vital that those impacted stay on top of the situation and follow developments.
> What isn't helpfull on a thread like this, and it's what led to my 'fill out forms' comment, is the rightious indignation and grandstanding of lbj about how disgusting this particular process is, and how baby-eating brexiters need to burn in hell for eternity because of the inconvenience caused (paradoxically to those whos country also sets out said inconveniences for forrins _and their own citizens_).


Would you have said the same thing when they tried to bring in id cards (lots of people did)? No big deal. Rest of Europe has them. It's not a paradox that other parts of Europe have these things. It is ironic, certainly, that brexit is leading to the UK introducing them. ID cards may well be next on the menu, who knows? Not everyone in Europe is sanguine about ID cards, btw, as an example - the fact we don't have them is a great thing and worth preserving. Same with these registers.

As for my use of the word 'disgusting', that's what I think this is as a way of treating people who in many cases have been living here for decades.


----------



## ska invita (Dec 18, 2018)

Yossarian said:


> Seems like this scheme to do it all through an app is going to be particularly hard on older people - my mother-in-law is widowed, German, has lived in Scotland for decades, and has no idea how to use a computer.
> 
> She's got us to help her navigate the process, but a lot of other people in her situation are probably going to fall through the cracks and I doubt they'll be getting much sympathy from the government - I give it about two years before we're hearing about civil servants being given targets for the number of residency requests from EU citizens they're supposed to reject.


Windrush shows the way... Denied health care and then booted out.


They won't need targets because there will be more cases than they can deal with.


----------



## pocketscience (Dec 18, 2018)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Would you have said the same thing when they tried to bring in id cards (lots of people did)? No big deal. Rest of Europe has them. It's not a paradox that other parts of Europe have these things. It is ironic, certainly, that brexit is leading to the UK introducing them. ID cards may well be next on the menu, who knows? Not everyone in Europe is sanguine about ID cards, btw, as an example - the fact we don't have them is a great thing and worth preserving. Same with these registers.
> 
> As for my use of the word 'disgusting', that's what I think this is as a way of treating people who in many cases have been living here for decades.


Paradox / Irony whatevs... point is, the process is more a result of being in the EU for years than a facet of leaving imo.
If the UK had introduced ID cards and registration a decade ago - with all the  bells & whistles like the private health insurance mandatory requirement (that a lot of EU countries have)
then the wind would've been taken out of UKIPs sails. The cliche  'health tourists coming over 'ere using our NHS' argument would never had existed and the referendum would've never seen the light of day.


----------



## Reno (Dec 18, 2018)

As an EU immigrant it wasn’t just my worry about my residence status after the referendum result which made me leave. It was a profound sense of disappointment with and anger at a country to which I’d contributed for 33 years. Whatever was left of my anglophilia evaporated that day and I took it as a slap in the face.

After the financial crash and the resulting austerity measures, which gave the Tories ample opportunity to dismantle the welfare state even further, I’m not going to hang around for what they’ll do after Brexit. I’m getting old, I’m not up for an NHS and a benefits system in tatters once I’ll need it more and more. I feel sorry for my British friends who are stuck with the resulting fallout and very grateful that my EU citizenship gave me a way out.


----------



## Yossarian (Dec 18, 2018)

Doesn't seem like it was widely known, but the UK did require EU citizens resident in Britain who weren't working - including citizens and stay-at-home spouses - to have private medical insurance for those periods when they weren't employed. After the Brexit vote, some people who applied for residency were denied it because the Home Office found that there were periods when they weren't working and didn't have insurance - the office tried to argue that it would have been a breach of EU rules to grant them residency under the circumstances.

The government said a year ago that it was going to drop this requirement, but it shows the kind of hoops people may end up having to jump through, even if ministers promise that it's going to be a straightforward process.


> Jocelyn Howorth from immigration law firm Westkin Associates said permanent residence applications have been rejected because candidates did not have insurance cover for ambulance transport or because the insurance bought was called a “health plan” instead of “health insurance”.



Subscribe to read | Financial Times


----------



## DexterTCN (Dec 18, 2018)

pocketscience said:


> I gave a first hand account of it happening. it's real.
> 
> that was over a decade ago


Giving hearsay about someone you knew a decade ago isn't first-hand, is it?

I doubt many are assured by your 'what about Germany' attitude and it seems no more than anti-EU irrelevant nonsense on this thread.


----------



## pseudonarcissus (Dec 18, 2018)

littlebabyjesus said:


> You're telling someone they can always fuck off elsewhere? Really. Why try to justify this shite, or try to minimise it as you have done here? Just call it out for what it is. It is the single most disgusting thing about brexit. And we all knew this was going to happen, or something similar. This is what a tory brexit has always meant. It's not wisdom after the event. Anyone who supports this, or even just tries to excuse or downplay it, is no political friend of mine. You place yourself on the other side from me if you support this fucking shit.


No, I agree. It’s disgusting. I really hope EU citizens rights are respected. I am not sure the Tory right will do this, but if you have an EU partner, following the registration procedure is all you can do to help you sleep at night. I don’t want anyone to feel they need to leave, even if that’s how I felt myself.
I have a nasty feeling the UK is heading to a recession resembling life under Thatcher with mass unemployment. Access to overseas labour markets may then be attractive


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 18, 2018)

Brexit putting thousands of ski resort jobs at risk for British workers
put here for uk citizens in europe


----------



## not-bono-ever (Dec 18, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> a pay rise is more likely to be a rise in pay than a bonus payment. a decrease in hours is less likely to be a pay rise and more likely to see a decrease in income


 if there is a pension scheme run by an employer then bonus is preferred as it falls outside the employer % base salary contribution requirement. Also a change of contract hours can pay benefits if done in advance if you are looking to offload them through redundancy.


----------



## tim (Dec 18, 2018)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Would you have said the same thing when they tried to bring in id cards (lots of people did)? No big deal. Rest of Europe has them. It's not a paradox that other parts of Europe have these things. It is ironic, certainly, that brexit is leading to the UK introducing them. ID cards may well be next on the menu, who knows? Not everyone in Europe is sanguine about ID cards, btw, as an example - the fact we don't have them is a great thing and worth preserving. Same with these registers.
> 
> As for my use of the word 'disgusting', that's what I think this is as a way of treating people who in many cases have been living here for decades.



ID cards, so New Labour! The British State is and has been hoovering up so much biometric data on us they don't need us to carry ID cards. They just need to check our DNA, irises, fingerprints, faces or faeces to know who we are.

Still at least they give you something to seethe about.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 18, 2018)

tim said:


> ID cards, so New Labour! The British State is and has been hoovering up so much biometric data on us they don't need us to carry ID cards. They just need to check our DNA, irises, fingerprints, faces or faeces to know who we are.
> 
> Still at least they give you something to seethe about.


or rather to froth about being as he has no intention of actually doing anything about it


----------



## tim (Dec 18, 2018)

Of course my conspiracide musings about the British State's biometric datadata harves overlooks the reality that they get Crapita to look after it, as they would have done with the ID cards


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Dec 18, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> Brexit putting thousands of ski resort jobs at risk for British workers
> put here for uk citizens in europe




That is tragic on every level, had we have known I think even Farage would have voted remain.

(((Greedy bastards trying to undercut the local workforce)))


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## likesfish (Dec 18, 2018)

european ID cards little bit of paper from the town hall nulabours was a "smart" id card that would never have worked


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## Puddy_Tat (Dec 18, 2018)

Yossarian said:


> Seems like this scheme to do it all through an app is going to be particularly hard on older people - my mother-in-law is widowed, German, has lived in Scotland for decades, and has no idea how to use a computer.
> 
> She's got us to help her navigate the process, but a lot of other people in her situation are probably going to fall through the cracks and I doubt they'll be getting much sympathy from the government - I give it about two years before we're hearing about civil servants being given targets for the number of residency requests from EU citizens they're supposed to reject.





> Scotland's Citizens Advice network will provide a new advice service to European citizens in Scotland affected by changes in the immigration rules as a result of Brexit.
> 
> Funded by £800,000 over three years by the Scottish Government



more here

has westminster set anything up yet?  or will they repeat the caring way that the 'windrush' generation have been looked after?


----------



## ska invita (Dec 18, 2018)

Puddy_Tat said:


> more here
> has westminster set anything up yet?


The way I remember it is the first thing, literally day one of the Cameron government, they slashed funding to citizens advice bureaus. CABs were first on the chopping block. The one in Catford if you're not in the queue an hour before the doors open you won't be seen. The queue at the door is looooong.
Does that count?

From 2011 Cuts in CAB funding leaving thousands with nowhere to turn for help


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## not-bono-ever (Dec 18, 2018)

Massive restructuring of law advice centres due to removal of funding and slashed legal aid - proper climate of fear stuff as well.


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## ska invita (Dec 18, 2018)

Still,  only 3.5 million people to process, what could possibly go wrong.


----------



## pocketscience (Dec 18, 2018)

DexterTCN said:


> Can you give me a one sentence breakdown of the German article?


  it's in English. 


DexterTCN said:


> Maybe something like "fuck all is happening but we might decide to do something in the future, but then we didn't"


It is happening. Has been for over a decade, and pardoxically ironically as things are panning out it looks like the UK is aiming to implement this very model.


----------



## pocketscience (Dec 18, 2018)

Reno said:


> As an EU immigrant it wasn’t just my worry about my residence status after the referendum result which made me leave. It was a profound sense of disappointment with and anger at a country to which I’d contributed for 33 years. Whatever was left of my anglophilia evaporated that day and I took it as a slap in the face.
> 
> After the financial crash and the resulting austerity measures, which gave the Tories ample opportunity to dismantle the welfare state even further, I’m not going to hang around for what they’ll do after Brexit. I’m getting old, I’m not up for an NHS and a benefits system in tatters once I’ll need it more and more. I feel sorry for my British friends who are stuck with the resulting fallout and very grateful that my EU citizenship gave me a way out.


Where in the EU are you from Reno? And when you left the UK where in the EU did you go to live?


----------



## pocketscience (Dec 18, 2018)

DexterTCN said:


> Giving hearsay about someone you knew a decade ago isn't first-hand, is it?


It was first hand for me. I saw the documents & lived the process. Nothing hearsay about it.


DexterTCN said:


> I doubt many are assured by your 'what about Germany' attitude and it seems no more than anti-EU irrelevant nonsense on this thread.


Of course it's relevant. The UK is introducing a system that's been widely practised for years elsewhere in the EU. I gave an example of a particular pitfall that one of the most vulnerable groups of people (poor economic migrants) get screwed over by in such a registration system. What the fuck's your problem with that?


----------



## andysays (Dec 19, 2018)

pocketscience said:


> Where in the EU are you from Reno? And when you left the UK where in the EU did you go to live?


Germany, I think


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## Reno (Dec 19, 2018)

pocketscience said:


> Where in the EU are you from Reno? And when you left the UK where in the EU did you go to live?


I moved from Munich to London in 1983 and I moved from London to Berlin in 2016.


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## pocketscience (Dec 19, 2018)

Reno said:


> I moved from Munich to London in 1983 and I moved from London to Berlin in 2016.


OK thanks, just trying to guage the threshold of "that's it, I've had enough" as far a being an EU citizen in the UK right now.
Would obviously be slightly different if you said you were going to Romania or Greece for a better health service. but Germany's probably an upgrade in that respect  - although HI is substantially more expensive I would guess.


> very grateful that my EU citizenship gave me a way out.



Your actually using the priivilage of your national citizenship and not the EU, as you can theoretically rock up to germany with no job, no money and claim social security and get you HI, rent etc paid for, whereby an EU citizen of another country would need to have a job that covers all that within 3 months or it's deportation. With the current job situation in Germany, that's usually not an issue but moving to any mediterreniann country right now without work is nigh-on impossible for an foreign EU citizen.


----------



## Reno (Dec 19, 2018)

pocketscience said:


> OK thanks, just trying to guage the threshold of "that's it, I've had enough" as far a being an EU citizen in the UK right now.
> Would obviously be slightly different if you said you were going to Romania or Greece for a better health service. but Germany's probably an upgrade in that respect  - although HI is substantially more expensive I would guess.
> Your actually using the priivilage of your national citizenship and not the EU, as you can theoretically rock up to germany with no job, no money and claim social security and get you HI, rent etc paid for, whereby an EU citizen of another country would need to have a job that covers all that within 3 months or it's deportation. With the current job situation in Germany, that's usually not an issue but moving to any mediterreniann country right now without work nigh-on impossible for an foreign EU citizen.




Even as  German I can't just rock up in Germany and claim social security, because for that I would have had to have been employed and paid into the system for a certain amount of time. Until now, I've never had a job or paid tax or insurance here because I've lived in the UK for my entire working life. My ability to claim benefits is no different from those who come here from another EU country. 

It's complete fantasy that as a EU citizen one will be deported from Germany within three months for not getting a job, that's the very point of free movement. The laws in regards to registering an address and paying health insurance, are the same for me as they are for any other EU citizen. If you don't comply you don't get deported but you can get fined.


----------



## pocketscience (Dec 19, 2018)

Reno said:


> Even as  German I can't just rock up in Germany and claim social security, because for that I would have had to have been employed and paid into the system for a certain amount of time. Until now, I've never had a job or paid tax or insurance here. My status here is not that different from those who come here from another EU country.


That's not true. As a german job seeker, over 15yo and resident in Germany and have no other means of support you have an unconditional right to support (SGB2)


Reno said:


> You can't be deported from Germany within three months of not getting a job if you are a citizen of a EU country, that's the very point of free movement.


you can _after_ 3 months if you have no means of financial support and/ or health insurance.

wrt EU freedom of movement, we discussed this on a thread elsewhere. Freedom of movement is fine in the EU. It's just when you stop moving (and here's the crux) and register to become a resident that your freedoms sudenly vanish.
The UK without a registration system is obviously at a disadvantage here as its open to manipulation* or at best fuzzy how any meaningful residence can be proven for an aapplicant initial (3 month) support.
It all falls under EU directive 2004/38/EC.

(manipulated by either that state refusing the claim or the applicant fraudulently claiming)

sorry all if this is a derail. I think its relevant - but maybe we need a specific thread on Freedom of Movement


----------



## gentlegreen (Dec 19, 2018)

Presumably the UK has insufficient staff to administer these things ?

Ever since I started making plans for early retirement in France, I've been surprised by what the UK (according to the Tory rags) allows people to get away with.
As an "inactif", I will need to prove sufficient income - the basic social security threshold of 550,93 euros per month nett (presumably not including rent and you would need to provide proof you aren't sleeping in a bender) - it's 833,20 € after 65.
Plus full health insurance.

I must also not be a threat to public order.
After 5 years when I request residency, I must apparently not be a *severe* threat.

-----------------------------------------------

Pour entrer en France :


vous devez être muni d'un titre d'identité ou d'un passeport en cours de validité,
et vous ne devez pas représenter une menace pour l'ordre public
-------

*Droit au séjour permanent*
Après 5 années de résidence légale et ininterrompue en France, vous obtenez un droit au séjour permanent. Vous pouvez prouver votre droit au séjour sur les 5 années précédentes par tout moyen (relevés bancaires). Vous n'avez ensuite plus besoin de justifier les conditions de votre séjour (ressources). Vous pouvez demeurer définitivement en France, sous réserve de ne pas représenter une menace grave pour l'ordre public.


----------



## Reno (Dec 19, 2018)

pocketscience said:


> *sorry all if this is a derail. I think its relevant *



It is a derail and your response would only be relevant if I actually had relied on my "privilege as a German" and had I moved to Berlin to claim benefits, which I haven't. Instead I relied on my privilege as a homeowner in London. With no credit history and being self-employed, it would have been almost impossible for me to find a flat to rent (or get a mortgage)  in Berlin, had I not been able to sell my London flat and cash-buy a flat here. In reality that is the biggest obstacle for anybody moving to a major city in Germany and it has nothing to do with the EU. Your argument only works if one presumes everybody who comes to Germany can only do so by immediately relying on benefits, which is not the case.

My original point wasn't about the wider benefits of freedom of movement in the EU, it was about why I did not feel welcome in the UK anymore and why I left the country. Under my circumstances, as a EU citizen, I could have just as easily moved to Spain and for a while I was considering moving to Madrid instead of Berlin. In the end your replies are irrelevant to me. I claimed no privilege over any other EU citizen in my situation who would move to Berlin.


----------



## pocketscience (Dec 19, 2018)

Reno said:


> Your argument only works if one presumes everybody who comes to Germany can only do so by immediately relying on benefits, which is not the case.


It's not an argurment, I'm stating the law and it applies to everyone.
I never presumed that everybody would immeadimmed rely on benifits, but unfortunately there is a sizable population of unkilled/ low payed workers across the eu eelying on this. 
As a person who can afford to buy a flat in Berlin, in cash, you'd obviously be exempt from this group. And yes, you'd be safe with that much equity to live anywhere in Europe,  or even in the UK after Brexit if May pushed this system through with her deal (looking unliklier by the day)


----------



## Reno (Dec 19, 2018)

pocketscience said:


> It's not an argurment, I'm stating the law and it applies to everyone.





pocketscience said:


> *Your actually using the priivilage of your national citizenship* and not the EU, as you can theoretically rock up to germany with no job, no money and claim social security and get you HI, rent etc paid for, whereby an EU citizen of another country would need to have a job that covers all that within 3 months or it's deportation. With the current job situation in Germany, that's usually not an issue but moving to any mediterreniann country right now without work is nigh-on impossible for an foreign EU citizen.



Your argument was that I used the privilege of my national citizenship to move to Germany, which I didn't. In terms of the law I only used the channels open to any EU citizen who doesn't plan to fund their resettlement by relying on social security benefits of the host country. That would be the vast majority of EU citizens who make use of free movement.


----------



## pocketscience (Dec 19, 2018)

Reno said:


> Your argument was that I used the privilege of my national citizenship to move to Germany, which I didn't.


well let's just say your privileges work on multiple levels , imagine if you'd have chosen to live greece (I know, highly hyperthetical as their health service is in tatters due to reasons we needn't go into here). After registering with the municiple authorities as a resident (legal requirement)  you then try to find a job but to no avail. Your savings dwindle away due to the costs of living and (long after 3 months presumably) you suddenly find yourself skint, on the streets of athens with no health insurance. At that point your're actually an "illeagal citizen" in the eyes of the authorities. As soon as you get bad dose of the lurgy you'd have nowhere else to go but back to your home country to get your statutory health insurance. At that point, you could theoretically rinse repeat (in other EU countries) in 3 month max cycles.


----------



## Reno (Dec 19, 2018)

pocketscience said:


> well let's just say your privileges work on multiple levels , imagine if you'd have chosen to live greece (I know, highly hyperthetical as their health service is in tatters due to reasons we needn't go into here). After registering with the municiple authorities as a resident (legal requirement)  you then try to find a job but to no avail. Your savings dwindle away due to the costs of living and (long after 3 months presumably) you suddenly find yourself skint, on the streets of athens with no health insurance. At that point your're actually an "illeagal citizen" in the eyes of the authorities. As soon as you get bad dose of the lurgy you'd have nowhere else to go but back to your home country to get your statutory health insurance. At that point, you could theoretically rinse repeat (in other EU countries) in 3 month max cycles.



I have no idea why you think constructing worst case scenarios is making a valid point in regard to anything I've had to say. This is getting tiresome and I've got better things to do than play theoretical games with my actual situation (or in fact the situation of most EU citizens who make use of free movement.)


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 19, 2018)

pocketscience said:


> well let's just say your privileges work on multiple levels , imagine if you'd have chosen to live greece (I know, highly hyperthetical as their health service is in tatters due to reasons we needn't go into here). After registering with the municiple authorities as a resident (legal requirement)  you then try to find a job but to no avail. Your savings dwindle away due to the costs of living and (long after 3 months presumably) you suddenly find yourself skint, on the streets of athens with no health insurance. At that point your're actually an "illeagal citizen" in the eyes of the authorities. As soon as you get bad dose of the lurgy you'd have nowhere else to go but back to your home country to get your statutory health insurance. At that point, you could theoretically rinse repeat (in other EU countries) in 3 month max cycles.


yeh cos after that you'd really want to


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## Pickman's model (Dec 19, 2018)

Reno said:


> I have no idea why you think constructing worst case scenarios is making a valid point in regard to anything I've had to say. This is getting tiresome and I've got better things to do than playing theoretical games with my actual situation..


i think we've exhausted pocketscience and should look instead to deskreferencescience


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## pocketscience (Dec 19, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh cos after that you'd really want to


unfortunately a reality for a lot of folk


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## pocketscience (Dec 19, 2018)

Reno said:


> I have no idea why you think constructing worst case scenarios is making a valid point in regard to anything I've had to say. This is getting tiresome and I've got better things to do than play theoretical games with my actual situation (or in fact the situation of most EU citizens who make use of free movement.)


As mentioned in the OP and by Yossarian , the vulnerable are going to be the ones falling through the cracks. You obviously aren't vulnerable so probably cant see the relevance. I've been in (and not far off now) what you call a 'worse case scenario' and if I wasn't from the UK my residency would be in jeopardy with the new system. My point is, It'd also be in jeopardy in any EU country if Ii relocated there.


----------



## Reno (Dec 19, 2018)

pocketscience said:


> As mentioned in the OP and by Yossarian , the vulnerable are going to be the ones falling through the cracks. *You obviously aren't vulnerable so probably cant see the relevance. *I've been in (and not far off now) what you call a 'worse case scenario' and if I wasn't from the UK my residency would be in jeopardy with the new system. My point is, It'd also be in jeopardy in any EU country if Ii relocated there.



Your only point is that like so many people who are desperate to keep the upper hand on an internet forum, you've disappeared up your own arse. 

Outside from what I wrote here, you know nothing about my situation. You have no idea about the sacrifices it takes to start a new life at the age of 55 in a country you left long ago and where you don't know anybody.

While I have no regrets about leaving the UK, leaving your life and your career with everyone you love behind after 33, isn't exactly a walk in the park. Two years later it's still an ongoing process. Had it not been for the sale of my London flat, even as a German, at my age and in my financial and professional situation, it would have been very difficult for me to start a new life in Berlin.

There are various obstacles I still have to overcome. My UK state pension is the only pension I have and I will be worse off as I've retired abroad. That will almost be all the money I'll have to live on at some point. I still haven't got my career back on track here and I live on very little money despite not paying rent.

So don't tell me I can't see the relevance of being vulnerable and kindly go fuck yourself.


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## pocketscience (Dec 19, 2018)

Reno said:


> Your only point is that like so many people who are desperate to keep the upper hand on an internet forum, you've disappeared up your own arse.


Oh really


Reno said:


> Outside from what I wrote here, you know nothing about my situation.


That's true - And I never claimed I did.



Reno said:


> You have no idea about the sacrifices it takes to start a new life at the age of 55 in a country you left long ago and where you don't know anybody.


Oh look, there's you making assumptions when you know nothing about _my _situation.
Who's trying to keep the upper hand and disappearing up their own arse?



Reno said:


> While I have no regrets about leaving the UK, living your life with everyone you love behind after 33, isn't exactly a walk in the park. Two years later it's still an ongoing process. Had it not been for the sale of my London flat, even as a German it would have been very difficult for me to start a new life here in my financial and professional situation. There are various obstacles I still have to overcome. My UK state pension is the only pension I have and you are worse off if you retire abroad. That will almost be all the money I'll have to live on at some point. I still haven't got my career back on track here and I live on very little money despite not paying rent. So don't tell me I can't see the relevance of being financially vulnerable and kindly go fuck yourself.


Look, you came to the thread telling your story. I'm curious because if implemented this law will impact people around me. The only difference is, they live hand-to-mouth and don't have the funds to feed their kids if they are forced to relocate. It's a realistic scenario for a lot of people that can come out of this registration system and I can image the majority of the 35000 that ska invita mentioned will have such a background.
That's a completely different kind of financial vulnerability than the one you've outlined and the fact that you were unaware of your (and everyone in the EU) fundamental rights to support made me assume you'd never actually needed to utilize that entitlement.
So, sorry if I've upset you in any way.



Reno said:


> I've got better things to do than play theoretical games with my actual situation (*or in fact the situation of most EU citizens who make use of free movement*.)


Well, that's kind of the point of this thread, no?


----------



## ska invita (Dec 19, 2018)

35000 is 1% not registering correctly. Id bet the minimum is 10%, 350,000 people.


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## pocketscience (Dec 19, 2018)

ska invita said:


> 35000 is 1% not registering correctly. Id bet the minimum is 10%, 350,000 people.


I'd say that's still a conservative estimate.

eta: when you think of all the low paid workers, mostly either working black or with creative work contracts, have paid too little into the system, dubious accommodation situation, basically anyone in a precarious situation would have to think twice about signing up to this.
Especially when the local population (UK citizens) don't have any such requirement.
I wonder what the uptake would have been on the ID card scheme before it was scrapped?


----------



## Dogsauce (Dec 21, 2018)

Everything they do to demonised migrants they will do to the rest of us - charging for NHS, entitlements based on income and so on. It’s useful to have a testbed that much of the population doesn’t give a shit about. This is why minimal issues such as ‘health tourism’ are amplified so loudly in the RW press. Fight it now, or it’ll come to all of us.


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## The39thStep (Dec 21, 2018)

I've always been fascinated about the lack of media coverage/ discussion about the impact of Brexit on  UK citizens living in the EU.


----------



## DexterTCN (Dec 21, 2018)

The39thStep said:


> I've always been fascinated about the lack of media coverage/ discussion about the impact of Brexit on (_*fill in the blanks*_).


Daily.

bold by me


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## pocketscience (Dec 22, 2018)

coz it's not going to happen, and never was going to happen Dexter. You've won. Time to relax.  Teresa May was always on your side.
Go register, like a good EU citizen.


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## kebabking (Dec 22, 2018)

The39thStep said:


> I've always been fascinated about the lack of media coverage/ discussion about the impact of Brexit on  UK citizens living in the EU.



The Guardian was never going to give even a mouse sized shit about people it saw as, overwhelmingly, people with tattoos living in Spain, eating English breakfasts and not speaking Spanish.

It probably did a breathless feature on some well paid middle class types living in Berlin or Copenhagen, but as far as the Guardian is concerned, Brits living abroad are probably Sun reading Brexit types who wear jewellery from Argos or some other awful place.

See the field in which it's fucks about that type of people are grown, and see that it is barren...


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## ska invita (Dec 22, 2018)

*Joint Council for the Welfare of Immigrants / Our legal challenge*
Our legal challenge


Hundreds of thousands of EU citizens living in the UK have no guarantee that they will be able to stay, because the Government has broken its promise to give status to everyone who is not a serious criminal. New immigration rules that came into effect in August bar Home Office officials from granting settled status to anyone subject to removal decision for not exercising EU treaty rights. This affects students, stay-at-home partners of British citizens, retired people, and others who do not have private health insurance, as they are deemed not lawfully resident.

The Government’s view is that they are not exercising treaty rights and are liable to have a removal decision made against them by immigration enforcement. If that happens, they will not get settled status, will become undocumented and subject to the Hostile Environment, immigration detention and removal. It is likely many will be able to stay, but it seems the system will be a lottery based on the whim of immigration enforcement. This is a far cry from the user-friendly, efficient and transparent scheme the Government claims it is creating.

Read the Financial Times' coverage of our legal challenge here

<<<can anyone access that FT link and C&P it please?


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## gentlegreen (Dec 22, 2018)

To be fair, it sounds like the UK is simply going to at least attempt to enact the conditions that prevail in all EU countries.

Loads of brits were living and working illegally in France until fairly recently (if not still). I know this because my Tory-voting relatives were doing it between the ages of 60 and 70 and encouraged me to move over near them in my late 40s to do the same ...
They were all let off the hook - which is presumably how my uncle managed to get masses of excellent hospital treatment.

I doubt we (or any other EU country) actually have the staff to do it - the same reason they ended dog licences.


----------



## kenny g (Dec 22, 2018)

gentlegreen said:


> - the same reason they ended dog licences.


 WTF?


----------



## ska invita (Dec 22, 2018)

gentlegreen said:


> To be fair, it sounds like the UK is simply going to at least attempt to enact the conditions that prevail in all EU countries.
> .


To be fair it doesnt sound equivalent at all. First off the change is happening retroactively. I think thats very different from getting paperwork on entry. And second everyone is currently legally here as opposed to your parents knowingly getting into something illegally, by the sounds of it. Its not about letting anyone off the hook. Once 2021 deadline kicks in they'll be denied all the services and rights mentioned (job, healthcare, bank account etc) at the point of accessing them, whether the Home Office has the staff or not.


----------



## gentlegreen (Dec 22, 2018)

kenny g said:


> WTF?


Cost far to much to collect and administrate a 37p licence.


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## kenny g (Dec 22, 2018)

gentlegreen said:


> Cost far to much to collect and administrate a 37p licence.


Just thought it was an interesting choice of comparison between dog licences and EU citizens.


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## gentlegreen (Dec 22, 2018)

Italy has come up trumps.


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## pocketscience (Dec 22, 2018)

gentlegreen said:


> Loads of brits were living and working illegally in France until fairly recently (if not still). I know this because my Tory-voting relatives were doing it between the ages of 60 and 70 and encouraged me to move over near them in my late 40s to do the same ...
> They were all let off the hook - which is presumably how my uncle managed to get masses of excellent hospital treatment.


How were they living and working illeagally?
By not being registered? Avoiding paying taxes?


----------



## gentlegreen (Dec 22, 2018)

pocketscience said:


> How were they living and working illeagally?
> By not being registered? Avoiding paying taxes?


I think they were living off a small private pension so there would have been no point fiddling the tax, but I still don't know what they would have done for health care in the days before Sarkozy drew a line before which people were let into the state system.

I recently found that as a pensioner I would be let into the state system after a living there a year or two - even before naturalisation - and on very generous terms :-
The tax to pay for it is only charged from investment and property income.


----------



## Gramsci (Dec 23, 2018)

pocketscience said:


> The UK without a registration system is obviously at a disadvantage here as its open to manipulation* or at best fuzzy how any meaningful residence can be proven for an aapplicant initial (3 month) support.
> It all falls under EU directive 2004/38/EC.
> 
> (manipulated by either that state refusing the claim or the applicant fraudulently claiming)
> ...



In relation to this thread this concerns me.



> Repeated assurances were made that the settled status scheme would be ‘different’ because it
> would not require individuals to prove that they had been exercising EU treaty rights. Caroline Nokes
> told Parliament “Applicants will not need to show that they meet other detailed requirements of
> current free movement rules. This means, for example, that stay-at-home parents, retired people
> ...



Im trying to get my head around this.

Looks to me that initially government promised simple scheme for existing EU nationals. That was broader than the the directive you quote. Now they are starting to go back on that .

File courtesy of ska invita


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## The39thStep (Dec 23, 2018)

pocketscience said:


> How were they living and working illeagally?
> By not being registered? Avoiding paying taxes?


Anyone whose got a pension or income from England is taxed in England so no tax to pay in an EU country. There's loads of people who live in the EU without the correct paperwork tbh , the Police are satisfied if you show a passport. If they work there then unless it's cash in hand they pay taxes and social security in that country.


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## pocketscience (Dec 24, 2018)

Gramsci said:


> In relation to this thread this concerns me.
> 
> Im trying to get my head around this.
> 
> ...


Here's the relevant para:


> EU15. An application made under this Appendix will be refused on grounds of suitability where any of the following apply at the date of decision:
> 
> (a) The applicant is the subject of an extantdeportation order or of a decision to make a deportation order; or
> (b) The applicant is the subject of an extantexclusion order or exclusion decision; or
> (c) *The applicant is subject to a removal decision under the EEA Regulations on the grounds of their non-exercise or misuse of rights under Directive 2004/38/EC.*


So section c does seem to implement the EU rule of proof of work/ sufficient funds and HI at 3 months registration. I guess the 5 year rule for perminent residency starts at the initial date of registration along with proof of contributions made throughout the 5 years.
The whole thing's ambiguous at best and  and as far asnI'm aware it's being implementated without any clear procedural guidlines.
It's inevitable that not just the eu citizens that are stay-at-home parents or students, but the ones in precarious employment (paying little to no contributions) will be impacted the most.

As a side note: I just goes to show how dependent the EU freedom of movement is on job availability. If jobs dry up then no FoM (unless you have significant amounts of cash)


----------



## Gramsci (Dec 27, 2018)

Saw this. France will wait until it see how its own nationals are treated post Brexit:



> France also sought to reassure British nationals of their post-Brexit status.
> 
> The Europe minister, Nathalie Loiseau, said the country would guarantee the residence, employment and welfare rights of the 160,000 British citizens living there provided that Britain offered the same guarantees to French expatriates.



UK nationals in Berlin assured of residency in event of no Brexit deal

In Germany:



> Engelhard Mazanke, the head of the foreigners registration office at the Berlin state office for citizens, told Britons that he could not say what kind of residence status they would get when the UK leaves the EU, or what documents would be required.



It would make sense for the remaining EU countries to wait to see how their own nationals get treated here first before giving rights to UK nationals.

None of this bodes well.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 28, 2018)

This particularly inept HO tweet appears to be instructing nearly all of the UK population to apply to their 'settlement scheme'.


----------



## CRI (Dec 28, 2018)

brogdale said:


> This particularly inept HO tweet appears to be instructing nearly all of the UK population to apply to their 'settlement scheme'.
> 
> View attachment 157087


I'd call it gobsmackingly awful - stitching together cheap stock photos of smiley, happy people and royalty free upbeat pingy music to tell people, many who've been here for decades, worked, paid taxes, own homes, have British children, partners, etc., that they have to _apply_ for scheme that's costly, invasive, restrictive that in no way guarantees you can stay.  And knowing the Home Office as we do, it will continue to be an anxiety-inducing, confusing and frustrating bureaucratic fuck up.  There are over 3m non British EU citizens in the UK who'll have to do this.


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 28, 2018)

1.3m UK citizens living in EU countries will have to go through some sort of proceedure


----------



## CRI (Dec 28, 2018)

The39thStep said:


> 1.3m UK citizens living in EU countries will have to go through some sort of proceedure


Yes, but, EU countries have systems in place so citizens of other EU countries can live and work there.  It's the UK Tory Government's choice to remove the UK from the EU, forcing EU countries to introduce new procedures for dealing with UK citizens.  They'd prefer not to have to do it you know.

Edit:  And not surprisingly, the Home Office seems incapable of getting its collective head around the situation for people in Northern Ireland who hold Irish Citizenship off the back of the Good Friday agreement, so that will be good fun.  


The Good Friday Agreement is under siege – and so is my right to be Irish in Northern Ireland | View


----------



## DexterTCN (Dec 28, 2018)

The39thStep said:


> 1.3m UK citizens living in EU countries will have to go through some sort of proceedure


Yeah they're fucked.


----------



## tim (Dec 28, 2018)

The39thStep said:


> 1.3m UK citizens living in EU countries will have to go through some sort of proceedure


Yes, deportation, if the British government insists on  making things difficult for EU nationals here


----------



## spitfire (Dec 28, 2018)

Fuck 'em. Cunts.

25 years my girlfriend has lived here and now they want £65 for her to stay? And for my 6 year old? What happens there?

First option is to tell them to stick it, which I'm all for. Second option is to go to France.

Hopefully enough people tell them to stick it up their collective little england tory arseholes.


----------



## DexterTCN (Dec 28, 2018)

spitfire said:


> Fuck 'em. Cunts.
> 
> 25 years my girlfriend has lived here and now they want £65 for her to stay? And for my 6 year old? What happens there?
> 
> ...


If you want them to stay in the UK get on the govt website and any advice forums, search social media, use a notebook.

If the second option is better...bon chance


----------



## spitfire (Dec 28, 2018)

Second option is not ideal, I've just started a new business making smoked salmon and doing that in the South of France will not work.

I'm easily capable of dealing with the paperwork and the rest of it so the "what happens there?" was probably superfluous/rhetorical but thanks for the suggestions.

But fuck those guys, we're fucking livid. 25 years, tens of thousands of tax paid, a flat bought, a child had, a life built.


----------



## DexterTCN (Dec 28, 2018)

spitfire said:


> Second option is not ideal, I've just started a new business making smoked salmon and doing that in the South of France will not work.
> 
> I'm easily capable of dealing with the paperwork and the rest of it so the "what happens there?" was probably superfluous/rhetorical but thanks for the suggestions.
> 
> But fuck those guys, we're fucking livid. 25 years, tens of thousands of tax paid, a flat bought, a child had, a life built.


Scotland is recruiting


----------



## spitfire (Dec 28, 2018)

DexterTCN said:


> Scotland is recruiting



I'm half Scottish and half Irish by heritage, Irish passport holder currently so not beyond imagination. 

Not sure Mlle. Fire could cope with the weather though. South of France girl that she is struggles with London!


----------



## DexterTCN (Dec 28, 2018)

spitfire said:


> I'm half Scottish and half Irish by heritage, Irish passport holder currently so not beyond imagination.
> 
> Not sure Mlle. Fire could cope with the weather though. South of France girl that she is struggles with London!


OK the weather is..._discussable_.   But remember Dune!  God created Arakis to test the faithful!  And we have multiple non-wine alcohols. (gin is apparently the thing these days)

Also the citizen test is...live here. (also try not to be a dick most of the time)

Anyway...back to little englanders staying quiet whilst people get deported.


----------



## spitfire (Dec 28, 2018)

CRI said:


> I'd call it gobsmackingly awful - stitching together cheap stock photos of smiley, happy people and royalty free upbeat pingy music to tell people, many who've been here for decades, worked, paid taxes, own homes, have British children, partners, etc., that they have to _apply_ for scheme that's costly, invasive, restrictive that in no way guarantees you can stay.  And knowing the Home Office as we do, it will continue to be an anxiety-inducing, confusing and frustrating bureaucratic fuck up.  There are over 3m non British EU citizens in the UK who'll have to do this.




My measured response to that last night was to tell them to get fucked. I haven't moderated my position now that I'm sober*. I'm not generally disposed to abusive language on twitter but the home office isn't a person so whatever....

#canpaywontpay

*am not really currently sober but had all day to think about it.


----------



## Winot (Dec 28, 2018)

A proposal has been floated to fuck this up by everyone in the UK applying in order to sink the system. After all, we are all EU citizens. But it probably doesn’t need that kind of intervention to screw up the Home Office bureacracy.


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## spitfire (Dec 28, 2018)

Winot said:


> A proposal has been floated to fuck this up by everyone in the UK applying in order to sink the system. After all, we are all EU citizens. But it probably doesn’t need that kind of intervention to screw up the Home Office bureacracy.



There was a comment from an EU27 person that I saw yesterday who said that would make the situation even more stressful for the EU citizens trying to navigate the system.

I disagree. 

Break it.


----------



## andysays (Dec 28, 2018)

DexterTCN said:


> Scotland is recruiting


Is this the Scotland which is part of the UK and which will be leaving the EU along with the rest of the UK in a few months time?

Not sure how moving to Scotland will solve any EU citizens immigration worries,  TBH...


----------



## Winot (Dec 28, 2018)

dp


----------



## Flavour (Dec 29, 2018)

tim said:


> Yes, deportation, if the British government insists on  making things difficult for EU nationals here



bullshit


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 29, 2018)

tim said:


> Yes, deportation, if the British government insists on  making things difficult for EU nationals here


highly unlikely imo


----------



## Mr Retro (Dec 29, 2018)

Not a word about this on the BBC today. 

Silence from the leader of the opposition but that’s not surprising. He did call for parliament to be recalled about 10 days after everybody else realised it should not even have broken up.


----------



## CRI (Dec 29, 2018)

Some on Twitter pointing out that the scheme isn't compliant with GDPR, which is now UK Law. Basically, Home Office is saying they'll take a mass of highly personal data from applicants, including biometric shit, keep it as long as they like, and do with it what they please and share it with whomever they want.

ID cards failed because people didn't want the state all up in people's private info like this. Guess it's fine to do with 'furriners' though. If they get away with it, don't be surprised if it creeps in for other people, too.

BBC was also using the word 'registration' to describe the scheme, when it's actually an application process. The way it's described from the landing page is that if you aren't accepted, you could be booted out. 

It is NOT the same as schemes in other countries where you just have to register. It's disingenuous for the BBC or anyone else to suggest it's the same kind of thing.

And anyone who thinks the Home Office won't totally screw up with their own hastily drawn up scheme is frankly bananas.  All this is pointless, unless the goal is to harass and intimidate people into leaving, which I suspect it is.


----------



## Theisticle (Dec 29, 2018)

Spain will look for similar guarantees regarding Spanish nationals here 

https://inews.co.uk/news/brexit/brexit-spain-pm-pedro-sanchez-eu-settlement-scheme-video/


----------



## CRI (Dec 29, 2018)

Theisticle said:


> Spain will look for similar guarantees regarding Spanish nationals here
> 
> https://inews.co.uk/news/brexit/brexit-spain-pm-pedro-sanchez-eu-settlement-scheme-video/


I'd expect Spain and other countries to do no less.  It only seems fair.  However, the UK Government has shown no interest in any kind of reciprocal agreements with other EU nations.  The shitty Home Office scheme involves _applying_ and selecting people who can stay and those who can't.  Knowing the "efficiency" of the Home Office, the latter is likely to happen as much through mistakes and general incompetence as anything else.  

So, don't be surprised if the 300K Brits "sojourning" in Spain get sent packing back to blighty.  Or maybe they'll allow one British citizen to stay for each Spanish Citizen that gets accepted to remain in the UK.


----------



## Theisticle (Dec 29, 2018)

Given the strain Brits put on Spanish healthcare, it would put an equal strain here if no agreement on rights is met. Spain and other countries are right in their stance. This is a nakedly xenophobic and racist attack on rights by the Home Office, as standard. I fear for similar examples of Windrush. Or, people will just give up British citizenship and settle in Europe. I’m in two minds about doing just that.


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 29, 2018)

Theisticle said:


> Given the strain Brits put on Spanish healthcare, it would put an equal strain here if no agreement on rights is met. Spain and other countries are right in their stance. This is a nakedly xenophobic and racist attack on rights by the Home Office, as standard. I fear for similar examples of Windrush. Or, people will just give up British citizenship and settle in Europe. I’m in two minds about doing just that.



Under the present EU agreements the UK makes payments to  EU states for the majority of heathcare costs for  our citizens and vice versa.


----------



## tim (Dec 29, 2018)

Theisticle said:


> Or, people will just give up British citizenship and settle in Europe. I’m in two minds about doing just that.



I think that all EU states would look on you even less kindly as a stateless refugee than as a British citizen.


----------



## Theisticle (Dec 29, 2018)

tim said:


> I think that all EU states would look on you even less kindly as a stateless refugee than as a British citizen.



I can get citizenship for Spain but would mean giving up British citizenship. I’m agonising over it tbh.


----------



## Winot (Dec 29, 2018)

Another aspect of the HO scheme is that the seriousness of a past criminal conviction determines whether you’re in or out. I assume that this is going to be assessed by a human being rather than by computer. Where will the staff come from or will it be outsourced to the likes of Crapita?


----------



## tim (Dec 29, 2018)

Winot said:


> Another aspect of the HO scheme is that the seriousness of a past criminal conviction determines whether you’re in or out. I assume that this is going to be assessed by a human being rather than by computer. Where will the staff come from or will it be outsourced to the likes of Crapita?



My assumption is that your assumption is wrong.

 Of course it will  be outsourced to either Crapita or Serco who will the run all applications through a computer.


----------



## andysays (Dec 29, 2018)

tim said:


> I think that all EU states would look on you even less kindly as a stateless refugee than as a British citizen.


I'd be amazed if anyone simply 'gives up British citizenship' or becomes a stateless refugee as a result of any of this.

And if people are genuinely intending to make their lives in the country in which they're living, what's the overwhelming problem with them going through the same process as anyone else would in those circumstances and becoming a citizen of that country, whether that's Britain for non-UK EU citizens currently here, or whatever EU country British citizens have chosen to live in?


----------



## CRI (Dec 29, 2018)

This didn't age well.


----------



## Poi E (Dec 29, 2018)

To be fair, the dude doesn't even know what fucking country he's in.

https://inews.co.uk/news/uk/fake-vi...glish-countryside-tweets-picture-vermont-usa/


----------



## CRI (Dec 29, 2018)

Poi E said:


> To be fair, the dude doesn't even know what fucking country he's in.
> 
> https://inews.co.uk/news/uk/fake-vi...glish-countryside-tweets-picture-vermont-usa/


True, but this was actually included among the plethora of fucking lies in the official Leave campaign.   Have a look here.

Restoring public trust in immigration policy - a points-based non-discriminatory immigration system



> We therefore propose that if Britain votes to take back control on 23 June, we should introduce a new, safer and more humane immigration system as rapidly as possible. The main principles for such a new system will, we believe, be broadly supported across British society.





> First, there will be no change for Irish citizens. The right of Irish citizens to enter, reside and work in the UK is already enshrined in our law. This will be entirely unaffected by a vote to leave on 23 June.
> 
> As the Northern Ireland Secretary has made clear, the common travel area that has existed since the creation of an independent Irish state will not be affected. There will be no change to the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic.





> *Second, there will be no change for EU citizens already lawfully resident in the UK. These EU citizens will automatically be granted indefinite leave to remain in the UK and will be treated no less favourably than they are at present.*


----------



## JHE (Dec 29, 2018)

Theisticle said:


> I can get citizenship for Spain but would mean giving up British citizenship. I’m agonising over it tbh.


I take it you have been living legally in Spain for the last 10 years.

Sánchez has talked about changing the laws of nationality. If that happened one of the changes could be to allow people who gain Spanish citizenship to retain their other citizenship, a right which at the moment is limited to people from certain countries. Unfortunately, Sánchez is unlikely to be able to cobble together a majority for this and frankly it's not going to be a priority to try.

I believe, but of course cannot demonstrate, that many of the British people who over the years have gained Spanish citizenship have retained their British citizenship on the quiet. Nothing is done to check you have given up your other citizenship and you cannot lose British citizenship inadvertently.

In practical terms I think the problem would be that there is an enormous backlog of applications. Unless you applied several years ago, the chances of your getting Spanish citizenship in the next three months are about zero.

I am delighted that Sánchez has now finally said what he has said about resident Britons. I think the delay was probably largely because the govt wanted to wait until there was an EU-wide policy, rather than announcing a specifically Spanish policy in anticipation of an official EU position.

I am in the very lucky position of being a Maltese citizen and I have an appointment in January with the Oficina de Extranjería to ask them to amend my entry in the Central Register of Foreigners so that I am registered as Maltese and will be officially recognised as an EU citizen even after March. But I think even if I did not have that good luck, I would be very reassured by what the EU published recently and especially by what Sánchez has now said.


----------



## Saul Goodman (Dec 29, 2018)

Grandfather rights would surely be the logical way to go.


----------



## weltweit (Dec 29, 2018)

Apparently there is an interview pre getting your first UK Passport now. 

Sprog hasn't had one yet, hoping he can get one toute suite !!


----------



## Gramsci (Dec 29, 2018)

andysays said:


> And if people are genuinely intending to make their lives in the country in which they're living, what's the overwhelming problem with them going through the same process as anyone else would in those circumstances and becoming a citizen of that country, whether that's Britain for non-UK EU citizens currently here, or whatever EU country British citizens have chosen to live in?



The problem is my friends and my partner were quite happy living in UK keeping their Polish and Spanish citizenship.  Didn't stop them making their lives in this country. And I object to the "genuinely intending". They have been genuine about making their lives here.

And to add this does not apply to those from Eire living here. The government has made that clear. Are they not genuine?


----------



## JHE (Dec 29, 2018)

andysays said:


> I'd be amazed if anyone simply 'gives up British citizenship' or becomes a stateless refugee as a result of any of this.
> 
> And if people are genuinely intending to make their lives in the country in which they're living, what's the overwhelming problem with them going through the same process as anyone else would in those circumstances and becoming a citizen of that country, whether that's Britain for non-UK EU citizens currently here, or whatever EU country British citizens have chosen to live in?



No, you won't become stateless by giving up British  citizenship. One of the conditions of giving it up is that you already have another citizenship. British law does not allow you to opt to become stateless.

The problems for a British person living in Spain gaining Spanish citizenship include:
* Residence requirement: 10 years (continuous, you can't add on previous periods of residence)
* Spanish law currently obliges you to give up British citizenship when you get Spanish citizenship, so
* You have the choice of breaking the law, by retaining your British citizenship or, post-Brexit, permanently losing the automatic  right to live in the UK.
* You have to wait years for your application for Spanish citizenship to be processed. There's an enormous backlog.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 29, 2018)

Gramsci said:


> The problem is my friends and my partner were quite happy living in UK keeping their Polish and Spanish citizenship.  Didn't stop them making their lives in this country. And I object to the "genuinely intending". They have been genuine about making their lives here.
> 
> And to add this does not apply to those from Eire living here. The government has made that clear. Are they not genuine?


I'm not sure what a non-genuine immigrant looks like tbh. Do they just pretend to live, work and pay taxes here? 

And people make their lives as best they can. That might mean moving away from here to go somewhere else after a few months or years or decades. So what? Are Jamaican-born people who sell up to retire back in Jamaica somehow non-genuine? How about those disloyal fuckers who send remittances back home? What does 'genuine' even mean?


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 29, 2018)

The general advice here in Portugal is to apply now for the five year residency card ( if people haven't got one already) and then apply for a further one six months before that expires . The venue for the application and the documents required may vary by then but after 10 years ( ie two five year periods ) an application for permanent residency can be made. No need to give up UK citizenship .


----------



## Gramsci (Dec 29, 2018)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I'm not sure what a non-genuine immigrant looks like tbh. Do they just pretend to live, work and pay taxes here?
> 
> And people make their lives as best they can. That might mean moving away from here to go somewhere else after a few months or years or decades. So what? Are Jamaican-born people who sell up to retire back in Jamaica somehow non-genuine? How about those disloyal fuckers who send remittances back home? What does 'genuine' even mean?



My friends in Brixton of Carribbean background have relatives who came here as part of Windrush generation. Their relatives kept their passports from Grenada for example as they felt as commonwealth citizens they were part of the community in this country. That turned out well. Under Mays hostile environment no longer "genuinely" living here. Their fault for not applying for genuine British citizenship.


----------



## andysays (Dec 29, 2018)

Gramsci said:


> My friends in Brixton of Carribbean background have relatives who came here as part of Windrush generation. Their relatives kept their passports from Grenada for example as they felt as commonwealth citizens they were part of the community in this country. That turned out well. Under Mays hostile environment no longer "genuinely" living here. Their fault for not applying for genuine British citizenship.


And when my soon to be mother in law came to Britain from the Philippines she did apply for and was granted British citizenship, because that was the best (if not the only) way to guarantee that she could live and work here as she wished.

Her sister, my girlfriend's aunt, is currently applying for a visa to allow her to travel to Britain for a few days to be present at her niece's wedding, we still don't know if she'll be allowed to enter the country.

This general situation is certainly not what I would want, but I'm still struggling to understand why EU citizens should expect to get automatic rights to live and work in Britain after Brexit simply on the basis that Britain used to be in the EU when anyone from the rest of the world has to go through the process Auntie Sophia has to even to be allowed to visit.


----------



## spitfire (Dec 29, 2018)

Not worth engaging with.


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 29, 2018)

spitfire said:


> Not worth engaging with.


Why don't you argue your corner?


----------



## spitfire (Dec 29, 2018)

The39thStep said:


> Why don't you argue your corner?



Because arguing on the basis of false equivalences with an obvious fundamentalist is pointless. But I thought I may as well put a marker in the sand.

My corner is not a political theory. It is the fact of the future that me and my family are facing. Brexit thread ------>


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 29, 2018)

andysays said:


> And when my soon to be mother in law came to Britain from the Philippines she did apply for and was granted British citizenship, because that was the best (if not the only) way to guarantee that she could live and work here as she wished.
> 
> Her sister, my girlfriend's aunt, is currently applying for a visa to allow her to travel to Britain for a few days to be present at her niece's wedding, we still don't know if she'll be allowed to enter the country.
> 
> This general situation is certainly not what I would want, but I'm still struggling to understand why EU citizens should expect to get automatic rights to live and work in Britain after Brexit simply on the basis that Britain used to be in the EU when anyone from the rest of the world has to go through the process Auntie Sophia has to even to be allowed to visit.



Nobody here has stated their approval of the way non-EU people are currently treated. That such treatment is to be extended to more people is the situation in point, plus an added twist of retrospective reclassification.

You are arguing the position of power. This is topsy-turvy. In fact, it has led you to state almost exactly the same thing as Theresa May has been stating recently as she defends this clusterfuck. You've gone wrong somewhere when you start repeating stuff said by Theresa May to justify herself.


----------



## Gramsci (Dec 30, 2018)

andysays said:


> And when my soon to be mother in law came to Britain from the Philippines she did apply for and was granted British citizenship, because that was the best (if not the only) way to guarantee that she could live and work here as she wished.
> 
> Her sister, my girlfriend's aunt, is currently applying for a visa to allow her to travel to Britain for a few days to be present at her niece's wedding, we still don't know if she'll be allowed to enter the country.
> 
> This general situation is certainly not what I would want, but I'm still struggling to understand why EU citizens should expect to get automatic rights to live and work in Britain after Brexit simply on the basis that Britain used to be in the EU when anyone from the rest of the world has to go through the process Auntie Sophia has to even to be allowed to visit.



You have quoted my post 201 which was about Commonwealth citizens. So ur saying the same about the Windrush generation? Or is that a mistake? They came here years ago as Commonwealth citizens ( formerly part of British Empire) thinking they had right to live here on basis of being Commonwealth citizens. 

btw I'm an EU citizen. UK hasn't left yet.


----------



## Gramsci (Dec 30, 2018)

andysays said:


> This general situation is certainly not what I would want, but I'm still struggling to understand why EU citizens should expect to get automatic rights to live and work in Britain after Brexit simply on the basis that Britain used to be in the EU when anyone from the rest of the world has to go through the process Auntie Sophia has to even to be allowed to visit.



After Brexit the only  EU nationals the government says will not have to go through the process of getting settled status are EU nationals from Eire. So I take it you object to that? They won't be affected by Brexit and will be able to live here with automatic rights.


----------



## Gramsci (Dec 30, 2018)

brogdale said:


> This particularly inept HO tweet appears to be instructing nearly all of the UK population to apply to their 'settlement scheme'.
> 
> View attachment 157087



Perhaps not so inept. 

This helps reinforce idea that these non UK EU citizens were never really part of UK.


----------



## Favelado (Jan 1, 2019)

Theisticle said:


> I can get citizenship for Spain but would mean giving up British citizenship. I’m agonising over it tbh.



Me too. Remember you can always get your UK citizenship back but they'll charge you 1500 quid. I wish Spain did dual-nationality for us.


----------



## Gramsci (Jan 2, 2019)

More potential confusion.

Employers must check EU nationals' right to work, says minister



> This appears to contradict a press briefing this summer in which the Home Office indicated it would not require employers to make immigration checks on staff who are EU citizens.
> 
> When questioned by MPs, Nokes conceded that it would be difficult for employers to make such checks, given that longstanding residents from EU member states had a guaranteed two-year period to go through the “settled status” programme, proving their right to remain and to work.
> 
> When asked how employers could be expected to make the checks, Nokes said she did not know, and would have to write to the committee later.



This is about what happens in transition period after Brexit. After Brexit EU nationals here will have two year period to apply for settled status.




> “If somebody hasn’t been here prior to the end of March next year, employers will have to make sure they go through adequately rigorous checks to evidence somebody’s right to work,” Nokes said, in an apparent new policy disclosure.



So this means after Brexit comes into effect in March no EU nationals can come here. In the transition period of two years existing EU nationals will not necessarily have obtained the settled status. So there will be mix of those EU nationals who can apply for settled status and those who come here after March. The immigration minister Nokes is expecting employers to distinguish between the two.

Is this correct reading of this? Of have I misunderstood it?

A recipe for confusion imo. Also employers may take the position its to difficult to take on someone who is from EU post march.

Does anyone else understand this? I thought in the transition period of two years EU nationals could still come here and apply for settled status. I'm not clear on this.


----------



## zahir (Jan 2, 2019)

Does anyone know how the right to rent would be affected by a no deal brexit? Would landlords still be able to rent to EU nationals arriving after March, and if not how would they be able to distinguish them from EU nationals with the right to apply for settled status?

According to Shelter on the right to rent:


> Your landlord must take steps to end your tenancy if your household includes someone who doesn't have the right to rent. The landlord can take steps to evict everyone in your household, including children and those who do have the right to rent.


So it isn’t just a case of who is named on the tenancy agreement.


----------



## ska invita (Jan 2, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> More potential confusion.
> 
> Employers must check EU nationals' right to work, says minister
> 
> ...



People are already being denied work, basically just because certain employers think that's the mood. Once that becomes official government policy..... Which in fact basically it just has. It's officially out there now. To announce this without detail shows the utter disregard, in fact you have to presume it's  deliberate disregard on the effects on the 3.5million.

Confusion is the (polite) word, the question is is it deliberate. Looks it. Has hallmark of Tory nudge unit going into overdrive to sharp elbow in the ribs followed by a kick between the legs.

Same as with the landlord thing certain landlords will  err on the side of caution whatever and deny people a let.... It's already happening....Those 3.5 million added to the list with the other discriminations that landlords practice, though here they have government encouragement.


----------



## Gramsci (Jan 2, 2019)

I've googled transition period for Brexit and now come up with this:

Downing Street yet to decide on freedom of movement for EU citizens after no-deal Brexit

The rights of existing EU nationals and those coming here during the transition period are unclear. Different ministers and senior civil servants say different things at different times. Then go back on what they said previously. As in Nokes case.

Javid says:


> “There will need to be some kind of sensible transition period. I mean, these are the kinds of things I’ve been working on for months and months.”



So the situation for EU people who rent and work in this country post Brexit is crystal clear.  The answer to zahir question is that I don't think a landlord or employer will be absolutely sure what to do. As landlords and employers under Mays hostile environment strategy are now co opted unwillingly to protect "our" borders, with heavy fines if they don't, its likely as ska invita says they won't take the risk of taking on EU people post Brexit unless they really need to.

Home Office minister Javid has been working on this for months. Tosser.

Whether this is deliberate policy or not as ska invita says is good question. If these Tories really cared they would have sorted this out months ago.


----------



## harpo (Jan 2, 2019)

Friend of mine, a Portuguese national, working as a community interpreter, has been told by her agency that they won't be offering her work after March.


----------



## Gramsci (Jan 7, 2019)

Joint Council for the Welfare of immigrants last November started legal challenge due to government going back on promises to (non UK) EU nationals about the "settled status"

The are being helped by the Public Law Project. 

JCWI challenge to Brexit-related changes to the Immigration Rules - Public Law Project



> PLP are representing the Joint Council for the Welfare of Immigrants (JCWI)  – a small charity who promote migrants’ rights in the UK.  With our help, JCWI have issued a claim challenging Brexit-related changes to the Immigration Rules. The claim focuses on the inconsistencies between who the Government said would be excluded from the UK after Brexit, and the much wider group who will actually be excluded because of how the Government have drafted the new Rules. JCWI asked the Government to address the inconsistency and lack of transparency about what they are doing, but they have refused to do so. So today JCWI have served their legal claim on the Government, and are now waiting for the court’s decision as to whether they can proceed with their claim.



I can't see if this will be allowed to proceed yet.


----------



## zahir (Jan 7, 2019)

There’s also a legal challenge from JCWI on the right to rent. I think this was being heard in December so it may now be waiting on a decision (I’ve no idea how long these kinds of hearings take).

Right To Rent Is A Policy That Leads To Discrimination


----------



## ska invita (Jan 7, 2019)

Talking of legal challenges I wonder if this kind of thing


harpo said:


> Friend of mine, a Portuguese national, working as a community interpreter, has been told by her agency that they won't be offering her work after March.


can be challenged. It doesnt seem justifiable. Discrimination surely. needs a landmark case


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 7, 2019)

ska invita said:


> Talking of legal challenges I wonder if this kind of thing
> 
> can be challenged. It doesnt seem justifiable. Discrimination surely. needs a landmark case


Surely in part depends on contract, if zero hours no obligation to offer work for example

Not saying it's right, just that it may not be illegal or unlawful


----------



## ska invita (Jan 7, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> Surely in part depends on contract, if zero hours no obligation to offer work for example
> 
> Not saying it's right, just that it may not be illegal or unlawful


yeah i can see how it could escape/bypass employment law...yet theyve said "From March" which suggests theres an explicit reason relaitng to Brexit for disallowing person mentioned from working and based on their nationality. That sounds like discrimination to me. Porbably not worth (me) speculating that much more here tbh. Its a complex legal matter.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 7, 2019)

ska invita said:


> yeah i can see how it could escape/bypass employment law...yet theyve said "From March" which suggests theres an explicit reason relaitng to Brexit for disallowing person mentioned from working and based on their nationality. That sounds like discrimination to me. Porbably not worth (me) speculating that much more here tbh. Its a complex legal matter.


Yeh it's shit but it strikes me as possibly to do with new financial year and if charity possible changes in funding

Anyway re speculation that's our meat and drink here


----------



## harpo (Jan 7, 2019)

ska invita said:


> Talking of legal challenges I wonder if this kind of thing
> 
> can be challenged. It doesnt seem justifiable. Discrimination surely. needs a landmark case


It isn't.  It's not legal, it's not moral, but this is what's happening.

It is because of Brexit and her being Portuguese.  It's a zero-hours contract but employment discrimination laws still exist.  However, I don't know if this has been tested or whether there is the legal framework to test it.  I suspect the agency can justify it by the uncertainty that EU nationals have been left in following this fucking shambles.


----------



## Poi E (Jan 8, 2019)

Here's the fate of some Romanian guys at the hands of British nationalists Brutal attack on five Romanian men blamed on loyalist paramilitaries - BelfastTelegraph.co.uk


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 8, 2019)

harpo said:


> It isn't.  It's not legal, it's not moral, but this is what's happening.
> 
> It is because of Brexit and her being Portuguese.  It's a zero-hours contract but employment discrimination laws still exist.  However, I don't know if this has been tested or whether there is the legal framework to test it.  I suspect the agency can justify it by the uncertainty that EU nationals have been left in following this fucking shambles.


When I had a zero hours contract it stated my employer was under no obligation to offer work. I imagine the thing's the same here. They're not being sacked, they're simply not being offered work. Yeh it stinks but I'd like to see some actual evidence of illegality, all I see at the moment is sharp practice


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 8, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> More potential confusion.
> 
> Employers must check EU nationals' right to work, says minister
> 
> ...



Sounds like one of those situations where a bunch of contradictory back-of-an-envelope drivel becomes actual public policy and traps people in bureaucratic purgatory.


----------



## harpo (Jan 8, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> When I had a zero hours contract it stated my employer was under no obligation to offer work. I imagine the thing's the same here. They're not being sacked, they're simply not being offered work. Yeh it stinks but I'd like to see some actual evidence of illegality, all I see at the moment is sharp practice


Well if someone doesn't have the right to work then it's not illegal not to give them work.  Thee shambolic part is that, with less than three months to go, the legal position isn't clear.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 8, 2019)

harpo said:


> Well if someone doesn't have the right to work then it's not illegal not to give them work.  Thee shambolic part is that, with less than three months to go, the legal position isn't clear.


I think it's abysmal the way things have been done, and the atmosphere the tories have created is vile. My heart goes out to your friend, and to all those in the same boat. It's the greatest fuck up I've ever known


----------



## Gramsci (Jan 8, 2019)

The reason I opposed Brexit was because so much of the run up to referendum was about "getting our borders back" and immigration. I thought Brexit vote would lead to not less but more immigration controls. I have been proved right. This is no accident. 

As harpo says the legal position is not clear.

This is imo intentional. 

There are parallels with the 70s. A Black British friend of mine in Brixton said, in run up to referendum, that the way Poles etc were being blamed for low wages etc was the same as his father from Carribbean got back in sixties and seventies. Back then post war the Commonwealth was area of free movement. This was curtailed in 70s. 

So I'm coming to position that these fuck ups by government aren't fuck ups. They are intentional.


----------



## ska invita (Jan 8, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> So I'm coming to position that these fuck ups by government aren't fuck ups. They are intentional.


Some recent Tory Nudge Unit previous
Behavioural Insights Team - Wikipedia


----------



## ska invita (Jan 10, 2019)

Current rejection rates on applications for permenant residence are at around* 25%*
\https://www.politico.eu/article/uk-rejects-over-1-in-4-eu-residency-applications/
If replicated on the new registration process that would be 900,000 rejected (if everyone actually applied)

...and include tripping people of up on not having documentation people didnt know they needed to have, such as succesive health insurance certificates
EU citizens 'denied residency documents'
...though it seems most often its about not filling in the form correctly or providing certain required evidence.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 10, 2019)

ska invita said:


> Some recent Tory Nudge Unit previous
> Behavioural Insights Team - Wikipedia


founded by the red tories i see.


----------



## ska invita (Jan 10, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> founded by the red tories i see.


its become a praxis for them (if im using the word right)


----------



## DexterTCN (Jan 10, 2019)

ska invita said:


> Current rejection rates on applications for permenant residence are at around* 25%...*


jesus

I doubt it will go down.


----------



## ska invita (Jan 21, 2019)

Reading this - not the clearest paragraphs:

"The expansion of the scheme follows two “private” test phases. The second phase saw 29,987 applications submitted with 27,211 decisions made. Of those, no cases were refused. However, the second phase was open to 250,000 people in selected universities, health and social care bodies.

The Home Office said 70% of applicants had been granted settled status with the remaining 30% granted pre-settled status, which is given to those who have been in the country for fewer than five years. There was positive feedback from 77% of applicants."

Sounds to me like a 30% rejection rate and a 77% take up rate


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 21, 2019)

A 0% rejection rate surely. I mean, it literally says that.


----------



## danny la rouge (Jan 21, 2019)

ska invita said:


> Reading this - not the clearest paragraphs:
> 
> "The expansion of the scheme follows two “private” test phases. The second phase saw 29,987 applications submitted with 27,211 decisions made. *Of those, no cases were refused. * However, the second phase was open to 250,000 people in selected universities, health and social care bodies.
> 
> ...


See above. Bold.


----------



## ska invita (Jan 21, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> See above. Bold.


In the first phase which involved a very direct contact with individuals. The stats are for second phase I think .

The general rate of rejections in the real world is 25per cent (see posts higher).

ETA: from this poorly written article
EU citizen registration in UK could become 'new Windrush', say migration experts
Poor in that it's not clear


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 21, 2019)

That's 25% under an entirely different process/scheme. Not the EU settlement scheme which only starts a test phase today.


----------



## danny la rouge (Jan 21, 2019)

ska invita said:


> In the first phase which involved a very direct contact with individuals. The stats are for second phase I think .
> 
> The general rate of rejections in the real world is 25per cent (see posts higher).
> 
> ...


I thought you were asking for clarification of the bit you quoted.


----------



## skyscraper101 (Jan 21, 2019)

Lend us yer Android phone, mate.


----------



## spitfire (Jan 21, 2019)

So she's dropped the fee....Graun link

*May says £65 fee for EU nationals applying for settled status to be abolished*
May says the government wants to accept the John Mann amendment guaranteeing workers’ rights after Brexit. It will consider legislating for this.

Turning to EU nationals, May says the government will not charge the proposed fee for EU nationals who apply for settled status so they can stay in the UK. It was to be £65 for adults and £32.50 for under-16s.


----------



## DexterTCN (Jan 21, 2019)

The fee may go but the process will stay.


----------



## ska invita (Jan 21, 2019)

Good. But yeah, can't see it making a difference in terms of rejection rates and maybe just a little on take up rates.
Interesting to wonder WHY this last minute change though. Some kind of reaching out to cross-MPs? Reducing a layer of bureaucracy before the inevitable iceberg crash?

Anyone know what the John Mann amendment is meant to do exactly?


----------



## DexterTCN (Jan 21, 2019)

ska invita said:


> Good. But yeah, can't see it making a difference in terms of rejection rates and maybe just a little on take up rates...


God no.  In fact they'll probably take some staff out of application processing to deal with refunds and that'll increase the backlog.


----------



## andysays (Jan 21, 2019)

DexterTCN said:


> The fee may go but the process will stay.



Why should there not be a process for EU citizens to apply for settled status? The alternative, surely, is that they don't have settled status, or at least that their status remains ambiguous.

There are processes which all of us have to go through in our various dealings with the state, to prove our entitlement to something or other, often at significant inconvenience. I seem to remember that you work for a particular arm of the state which demands that we all go through various processes related to our income and taxation on it.

Are you suggesting that all these processes should be waived, and if not, why do you think this particular one should be singled out for your opprobrium?


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 21, 2019)

ska invita said:


> Good. But yeah, can't see it making a difference in terms of rejection rates and maybe just a little on take up rates.
> Interesting to wonder WHY this last minute change though. Some kind of reaching out to cross-MPs? Reducing a layer of bureaucracy before the inevitable iceberg crash?


The 30%, 25% or the 0% rejection rate? Of course there's no reason why it would effect outcomes. 

edit: at least negatively, it may lead to more people being oked on grounds that may have warranted further investigation in the past as result of increased take-up.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 21, 2019)

ska invita said:


> Anyone know what the John Mann amendment is meant to do exactly?



Usually promote the good of John Mann:

_At end, add “agrees with paragraph 79 of the political declaration that the future relationship must ensure open and fair competition and that provisions to ensure this should cover state aid, competition, social and employment standards, environmental standards, climate change, and relevant tax matters, building on the level playing field arrangements provided for in the withdrawal agreement and commensurate with the overall economic relationship; and determines not to allow the UK leaving the EU to result in any lowering after exit day of common EU UK standards provided for in the withdrawal agreement in relation to employment, environmental protection and health and safety which will continue to protect the wellbeing of every person in this country; and determines that the government should invite the House to consider any measure approved by EU institutions after exit day which strengthens any of these protections._

So it looks like a Corbyn knobbling move under the guise of workers rights. Very odd.


----------



## ska invita (Jan 21, 2019)

andysays said:


> Why should there not be a process for EU citizens to apply for settled status? The alternative, surely is that they don't have settled status, or at least that their status remains ambiguous.
> 
> There are processes which all of us have to go through in our various dealings with the state, to prove our entitlement to something or other, often at significant inconvenience. I seem to remember that you work for a particular arm of the state which demands that we all go through various processes related to our income and taxation on it.
> 
> Are you suggesting that all these processes should be waived, and if not, why do you think this particular one should be singled out for your opprobrium?



I take it you've read the links in the OP which set out why several tens if not hundreds of thousands of people will be made illegal.
And why now while they are legal they are still being denied housing and work.
And why this government doesn't give a shit and deports with enthusiasm.
You're either comfortable with that or not.
I'm not. It doesn't have to happen. Cheer it on if you wish...


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 21, 2019)

Keep the things that are deteriorating workers conditions down in order to protect workers.


----------



## andysays (Jan 21, 2019)

ska invita said:


> I take it you've read the links in the OP which set out why several tens if not hundreds of thousands of people will be made illegal.
> And why now while they are legal they are still being denied housing and work.
> And why this government doesn't give a shit and deports with enthusiasm.
> You're either comfortable with that or not.
> I'm not. It doesn't have to happen. Cheer it on if you wish...


TBH, you have been so cavalier in making claims based on misunderstandings or misrepresentations of things you've read that I'm struggling to take anything you say on this subject seriously.


----------



## ska invita (Jan 21, 2019)

andysays said:


> TBH, you have been so cavalier in making claims based on misunderstandings of things you've read that I'm struggling to take anything you say on this subject seriously.


If that allows you to ignore this, sleep tight.


----------



## ska invita (Jan 21, 2019)

andysays said:


> TBH, you have been so cavalier in making claims based on misunderstandings or misrepresentations of things you've read that I'm struggling to take anything you say on this subject seriously.


Try playing the ball
https://migrationobservatory.ox.ac....-failing-to-secure-their-rights-after-brexit/
Not the man.


----------



## zahir (Jan 21, 2019)

May’s statement: PM statement to the House of Commons on Brexit: 21 January 2019


----------



## Badgers (Jan 21, 2019)

Unusual for May to do a u-turn


----------



## ska invita (Jan 21, 2019)

Badgers said:


> Unusual for May to do a u-turn


Beats coming up with a new deal. Change something else instead.


----------



## zahir (Jan 21, 2019)

Where is the u-turn? 

I’ve skimmed through it and my impression is that there aren’t really any substantial changes. Or maybe I’m missing something.


----------



## andysays (Jan 21, 2019)

ska invita said:


> If that allows you to ignore this, sleep tight.


I'm not ignoring the subject, it affects various people I know, and I've already mentioned the experiences of a soon-to-be-relative of mine from somewhere other than the EU who has had to pay to go through a visa process simply to be allowed to enter the country to attend her niece's wedding, now thankfully granted.

I'm still left wondering why EU citizens should be exempt from any sort of process to establish or demonstrate their right to settled status in the UK, when everyone else *does* have to demonstrate their entitlement to this and many other rights.

You seem unwilling or unable to address this issue, and instead come out with distorted predictions about people being denied settled status and smears about other people's ability to sleep at night


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 21, 2019)

zahir said:


> Where is the u-turn?
> 
> I’ve skimmed through it and my impression is that there aren’t really any substantial changes. Or maybe I’m missing something.





> I can confirm today that when we roll out the scheme in full on 30th March, the government will waive the application fee so that there is no financial barrier for any EU nationals who wish to stay. And anyone who has or will apply during the pilot phase will have their fee reimbursed.



That's it. Not what i'd call a u-turn myself but a good thing nonetheless.


----------



## andysays (Jan 21, 2019)

ska invita said:


> Try playing the ball
> 
> Not the man.


Bit late for you to come out with this, given your previous comments...


----------



## zahir (Jan 21, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> That's it. Not what i'd call a u-turn myself but a good thing nonetheless.


Agreed. 

I can’t see much change in her wider approach though. And no sign of her backing away from going through with a no deal if she can’t get support for the withdrawal agreement.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 21, 2019)

zahir said:


> Agreed. I can’t see much change in her wider approach though.


Of course, but we're on a thread specifically about the EU settlement plan not the EU/brexit as a whole.


----------



## zahir (Jan 21, 2019)

Fair enough. I’ve got my threads mixed up. I meant to post the link to May’s statement on the main thread.


----------



## ska invita (Jan 22, 2019)

The apps not even working properly for lots of people
Home Office may struggle to register EU settlers in time, say campaigners


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 22, 2019)

Portugal plans special lanes for Britons in airports after Brexit



> Even without a Brexit deal, the estimated 45,000-50,000 British citizens living in Portugal – only 23,000 of whom are officially registered – will be able to retain their residence and other rights, including access to state healthcare and recognition of UK academic qualifications, Costa added.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 22, 2019)

The oldest alliance just said yes, no eu. no problem. Which is impossible. Of course.


----------



## ska invita (Jan 22, 2019)

Step by step account of using the app by an IT expert. Doesn't sound straight forward to me.

Also suggests a National Insurance number is required and central to the approval process. There will be many who don't have one.


The Brexit settled status app works, but problems are lurking | WIRED UK


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 22, 2019)

Badgers said:


> Unusual for May to do a u-turn


no indeed, she's more like admiral farragut - damn the torpedoes full speed ahead


----------



## Dogsauce (Jan 22, 2019)

The cynic in me connected the dots between May scrapping these charges and some Polish EU bod (whose nationals would be the largest beneficiaries of this generosity) piping up in support of her deal.


----------



## DexterTCN (Jan 23, 2019)




----------



## brogdale (Jan 23, 2019)

Piss-boiler of the morning?


----------



## Winot (Jan 23, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Piss-boiler of the morning?
> 
> View attachment 159512



And yet she probably complains about having to pay for a parking permit because she thinks it’s her right to park outside her house.


----------



## danny la rouge (Jan 23, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Piss-boiler of the morning?
> 
> View attachment 159512


I think I remember reading she went to Gordonstoun, the private school that generations of Royals have attended.  I don't suppose £65 is anything to her.  Probably pays that for a bag of civit shit coffee beans for her housekeeper to grind for her.


----------



## brogdale (Jan 23, 2019)

Winot said:


> And yet she probably complains about having to pay for a parking permit because she thinks it’s her right to park outside her house.


Who knows?
She's just shilling nationalistic cancer for a bent banker from belize.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 23, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Piss-boiler of the morning?
> 
> View attachment 159512


work is as ever the piss-boiler of the morning

if you pay for a right then it isn't a right

and afaik io hasn't coughed up anything to stay here so her attachment to the uk is unbelievably tenuous


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 23, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> I think I remember reading she went to Gordonstoun, the private school that generations of Royals have attended.  I don't suppose £65 is anything to her.  Probably pays that for a bag of civit shit coffee beans for her housekeeper to grind for her.


poor norton knatchbull, 3rd earl mountbatten of burma and auld gordonstounian, his parents must really have hated him


----------



## ska invita (Jan 23, 2019)

The £65 thing is, or was, the most minor part of this whole process. No home office gate keeper is going to reject your money. At least it's infallible. The serious problems are peoples ability to complete the process and if they do, wrongly getting rejected.

That tweet on the last page Dexter posted has some more insight in the thread... After being rejected she appealed, called a helpline and is being assigned a case worker. She's waiting now. This is someone who has evidence of years in the UK coming out of her ears. There won't be the staff to deal with a fraction of the 3500000 cases going through and being appealed... And as we know with the 'benefits' system its a system designed to crush and destroy, and that requires a lot of skill to face in the first place.

And there's a deadline. Case not resolved by march 21 you're fucked


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 23, 2019)

ska invita said:


> The £65 thing is, or was, the most minor part of this whole process. No home office gate keeper is going to reject your money. At least it's infallible. The serious problems are peoples ability to complete the process and if they do, wrongly getting rejected.
> 
> That tweet on the last page Dexter posted has some more insight in the thread... After being rejected she appealed, called a helpline and is being assigned a case worker. This is someone who has evidence of years in the UK coming out of her ears. There won't be the staff to deal with a fraction of the 3500000 cases going through and being appealed... And as we know with the 'benefits' system its a system designed to crush and destroy, and that requires a lot of skill to face in the first place.


no, the problem is there will only be the staff to deal with a fraction of the 3500000 cases going through and being appealed and that in itself is going to lead to all manner of consequences like people being deported before their cases are heard


----------



## brogdale (Jan 23, 2019)

_EUrush ?_


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 23, 2019)

brogdale said:


> _EUrush ?_


eu rascal


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 23, 2019)

‘Brexit an opportunity for Portugal’


----------



## sim667 (Jan 23, 2019)




----------



## CRI (Jan 23, 2019)

sim667 said:


>


----------



## gentlegreen (Jan 23, 2019)

Ex-mayor of Ipswich denied citizenship after almost 40 years in UK

Apparently the (failed) process cost her £1,282.


----------



## flypanam (Jan 27, 2019)

My wife has just tried the scheme, it wouldn’t scan her resident permit, the message was that British citizens need not apply for settled status, she’s Canadian.

Anyhow after some calls to the home office I was told that she needed the biometric residence card for proof that she’s an EU family member. However the home office back in 2014 said she would never need one.

We now have to wait till the end of March to apply. Oh well.


----------



## zahir (Jan 27, 2019)

Thread:


----------



## redsquirrel (Jan 27, 2019)

flypanam said:


> Anyhow after some calls to the home office I was told that she needed the biometric residence card for proof that she’s an EU family member. However the home office back in 2014 said she would never need one.
> 
> We now have to wait till the end of March to apply. Oh well.


Pricks. 


zahir said:


> Thread:


And? Do you agree? What point are trying to make?


----------



## ska invita (Jan 27, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> And? Do you agree? What point are trying to make?


What do *you *think?

I think Labour must commit to abandoning this registration/deportation process started by May and that necessarily means retaining freedom of movement for the foreseeable.


----------



## zahir (Jan 27, 2019)

As ska invita says except that I’m not sure how meaningful it is to demand anything of Labour. They are what they are.


----------



## redsquirrel (Jan 27, 2019)

ska invita said:


> What do *you *think?
> 
> I think Labour must commit to abandoning this registration/deportation process started by May and that necessarily means retaining freedom of movement for the foreseeable.


About what? This random tweeter? The Labour Party? What you are willing to call freedom on movement? Corbyn's "far-right" arguments?


----------



## zahir (Jan 27, 2019)

What do you think about Corbyn’s position?


----------



## redsquirrel (Jan 27, 2019)

Well I  don't watch Marr so I've no idea what he said on Jan 13 show.

But in terms of the general position the LP leadership on, I think it's impossible for a  migration system to be "fair" under capitalism. That said I think it would be perfectly possible, as well as sensible, for a government to commit to ensuring people from EU countries (and dependants) currently living in the UK will be able to live in the UK after it leaves the EU. And that to do so doesn't have to involve committing to the EU's "freedom on movement".

I do think capital, through the EU and national governments, use "freedom of movement" to attack workers conditions, and that Corbyn has been right to attack companies doing this.


----------



## brogdale (Jan 27, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> Well I  don't watch Marr so I've no idea what he said on Jan 13 show.
> 
> But in terms of the general position the LP leadership on, I think it's impossible for a  migration system to be "fair" under capitalism. That said I think it would be perfectly possible, as well as sensible, for a government to commit to ensuring people from EU countries (and dependants) currently living in the UK will be able to live in the UK after it leaves the EU. And that to do so doesn't have to involve committing to the EU's "freedom on movement".
> 
> I do think capital, through the EU and national governments, use "freedom of movement" to attack workers conditions, and that Corbyn has been right to attack companies doing this.


Interestingly, the state has already admitted that it won't be capable of distinguishing between EU residents and new EU arrivals at UK borders.


----------



## zahir (Jan 27, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> But in terms of the general position the LP leadership on, I think it's impossible for a  migration system to be "fair" under capitalism. That said I think it would be perfectly possible, as well as sensible, for a government to commit to ensuring people from EU countries (and dependants) currently living in the UK will be able to live in the UK after it leaves the EU. And that to do so doesn't have to involve committing to the EU's "freedom on movement".
> 
> I do think capital, through the EU and national governments, use "freedom of movement" to attack workers conditions, and that Corbyn has been right to attack companies doing this.



I take it from this that you’re in favour of immigration controls on EU citizens being more restrictive than they currently are.


----------



## redsquirrel (Jan 27, 2019)

zahir said:


> I take it from this that you’re in favour of immigration controls on EU citizens being more restrictive than they currently are.


On what basis are you making this assumption?
I'm in favour of the self-organisation of workers, that doesn't have to lead to "more restrictive immigration controls", indeed my belief is that it would lead to the opposite.


----------



## Gramsci (Jan 27, 2019)

DexterTCN said:


>




So she has only been offered "pre settled status". As they are saying she does not have employment record for 2015 to 2017. 

I thought this settled status process was supposed to be simple. You only have to prove residence here. 

In practise her experience is possibly meaning they won't give a lot of EU people settled status but only give them pre settled status to start with. 

Her experience is not very encouraging for those EU citizens trying to have guaranteed right to stay.


----------



## tim (Jan 27, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Who knows?
> She's just shilling nationalistic cancer for a bent banker from belize.


Are you David Cameron in the real world?


----------



## brogdale (Jan 27, 2019)

tim said:


> Are you David Cameron in the real world?


busted


----------



## DexterTCN (Jan 27, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> So she has only been offered "pre settled status". As they are saying she does not have employment record for 2015 to 2017.
> 
> I thought this settled status process was supposed to be simple. You only have to prove residence here.
> 
> ...


Yup.

The affected blase  attitude of some posters on this thread belie the truth.


----------



## ska invita (Jan 27, 2019)

ska invita said:


> The way I remember it is the first thing, literally day one of the Cameron government, they slashed funding to citizens advice bureaus. CABs were first on the chopping block. The one in Catford if you're not in the queue an hour before the doors open you won't be seen. The queue at the door is looooong.
> Does that count?
> 
> From 2011 Cuts in CAB funding leaving thousands with nowhere to turn for help



Just in Catford right now, CAB has been shut down


----------



## zahir (Jan 27, 2019)

It seems to me there’s some reasonable discussion on this libcom thread: EU - Roads to Travel


----------



## zahir (Jan 28, 2019)

Labour to abstain on immigration bill. Thread:


----------



## zahir (Jan 28, 2019)




----------



## agricola (Jan 28, 2019)

zahir said:


> Labour to abstain on immigration bill. Thread:




10p says Chris Leslie and the rest would have abstained if it was a three line whip to oppose, on the basis that it didn't take into account the concerns hard working families have about etc etc etc.


----------



## zahir (Jan 28, 2019)

A partial u-turn from Labour.

Brexit: May tells Tory MPs to back amendment to replace backstop – Politics live


Thread:


----------



## zahir (Jan 28, 2019)

Labour Forced Into Embarrassing U-Turn On Tory Immigration Bill After Backlash From MPs | HuffPost UK

Labour makes abrupt U-turn over immigration bill vote


> The shadow home secretary, Diane Abbott, had sparked a backlash among MPs when she told the House of Commons the frontbench would not vote against the post-Brexit legislation.
> 
> “The Labour party is clear that when Britain leaves the single market, freedom of movement ends, and we set this out in our 2017 manifesto. I am a slavish devotee of that magnificent document: so on that basis, the frontbench of the Labour party will not be opposing this bill this evening,” she said.
> 
> She added that Labour would abstain at this stage, known as second reading, and seek amendments later.


----------



## ska invita (Jan 28, 2019)

When is this vote? I thought at 10 tonight? I presume it will pass as what Tory + DUP wouldn't vote for it.


----------



## zahir (Jan 28, 2019)

The HuffPost report says at 10. I think there were a couple of Tories saying they’d vote against.

e2a:


> Following a division, MPs have voted to support the Immigration and Social Security Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill at second reading.
> 
> In all, 234 voted against the bill, but 297 voted in favour.


----------



## CRI (Jan 28, 2019)

zahir said:


> The HuffPost report says at 10. I think there were a couple of Tories saying they’d vote against.
> 
> e2a:


Yes, Tories Kenneth Clarke and Anna Navarro voted against.  Passed second reading 297 for, 234 against.  I guess 78 Labour MPs were washing their hair tonight.


----------



## CRI (Jan 28, 2019)

I'm seeing there were 76 Labour abstentions not 78, so two MPs must have had permission slips (I think one just gave birth - fair enough then.)  Had there been a three line Labour whip for noe, it's just possible the bill would have died tonight.







And a reminder what this bill is about.


----------



## zahir (Jan 29, 2019)




----------



## Idris2002 (Jan 29, 2019)

flypanam said:


> My wife has just tried the scheme, it wouldn’t scan her resident permit, the message was that British citizens need not apply for settled status, she’s Canadian.
> 
> Anyhow after some calls to the home office I was told that she needed the biometric residence card for proof that she’s an EU family member. However the home office back in 2014 said she would never need one.
> 
> We now have to wait till the end of March to apply. Oh well.


Has anyone given you a firm position on the status of Irish people? Before I folded my tent and vanished into the night, I did read something claiming that the consensus that we have automatic permanent leave to remain was wrong. . .


----------



## flypanam (Jan 29, 2019)

Idris2002 said:


> Has anyone given you a firm position on the status of Irish people? Before I folded my tent and vanished into the night, I did read something claiming that the consensus that we have automatic permanent leave to remain was wrong. . .



According to the civil servant at the home office that I spoke to, we do not have apply for settled status.

For the moment it's same as it ever was...

I've read this Ireland Act 1949 - Does it Protect Irish Nationals Living in the UK? | Fragomen which doesn't fill me with hope.

eta: Brexit- Immigration Update


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 29, 2019)

Idris2002 said:


> Has anyone given you a firm position on the status of Irish people? Before I folded my tent and vanished into the night, I did read something claiming that the consensus that we have automatic permanent leave to remain was wrong. . .


Nothing has changed. The deliberate attempt by the EU and remain media to stir up fears had my (leave voting) mum on the phone to various bodies about this and was clearly told there is some right rubbish being put about.


----------



## Idris2002 (Jan 29, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> Nothing has changed. The deliberate attempt by the EU and remain media to stir up fears had my (leave voting) mum on the phone to various bodies about this and was clearly told there is some right rubbish being put about.


Hmmm. The story as I heard it was that this was an opinion expressed by an anti-immigration clique in the Home Office.


----------



## flypanam (Jan 29, 2019)

Idris2002 said:


> Hmmm. The story as I heard it was that this was an opinion expressed by an anti-immigration clique in the Home Office.


It probably is an opinion held there, but for now it's all fine. Irish citizens are not subject to change(yet) so unless you've a partner from the EU or outside it, as they will have to apply for settled status.


----------



## Gramsci (Jan 29, 2019)

Idris2002 said:


> Has anyone given you a firm position on the status of Irish people? Before I folded my tent and vanished into the night, I did read something claiming that the consensus that we have automatic permanent leave to remain was wrong. . .




 I have posted up here about this.

There are issues for Irish citizens if UK leaves.

In the immigration bill passed last night there is section ensuring continuing rights of Irish citizens living here.

Due probably from pressure of a few Labour MPs.

Whether this is firm gaurentee for long term future of Irish people I don't know yet.


----------



## DexterTCN (Jan 29, 2019)

EU citizens working in the civil service have been told that they won't be deported and 'will be fine', a message from on high.

It hasn't helped.


----------



## Gramsci (Jan 29, 2019)

Idris2002 said:


> Has anyone given you a firm position on the status of Irish people? Before I folded my tent and vanished into the night, I did read something claiming that the consensus that we have automatic permanent leave to remain was wrong. . .



found this analysis of the immigration bill. Here is bit on Irish citizens:




> By inserting a new section 3ZA (Irish citizens) into section 3 of the Immigration Act 1971, clause 2 amends the Immigration Act 1971 to confirm that the rights of Irish citizens prevail. Therefore, irrespective of the end of free movement, Irish citizens will not require any leave to enter or remain in the UK. Significantly, this development seen as quite a positive step by the Immigration Law Practitioners’ Association because it enables “frontier workers” – i.e. Irish citizens working in Northern Ireland who cross the border frequently for work – to continue to carry on their activities without requiring leave. Clause 3 amends section 61 of the UK Borders Act 2007 to ensure that any references to “the Immigration Acts” across legislation include the Bill.




Analysis of the Immigration and Social Security Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill

Like I said previously this isn't due to May being generous towards migrants. Its due to pressure from Irish government and Labour MPs.


----------



## Gramsci (Jan 29, 2019)

Here is previous post of mine on position of Irish nationals.


Government has promised Irish passport holders that they will not have to apply for "settled status". That they will be able to continue here as before.

The immigration minister, Caroline Nokes, said this.

The legal situation is not so clear. Irish nationals have rights here deriving from EU membership of Eire. These will go after Brexit leaving them to call back on previous agreements. Which aren't watertight. With what happened to Commonwealth citizens under Mays hostile environment recent history I would not gaurentee long term rights of those holding Eire citizenship living in UK.




> The government's official position – restated by Nokes yesterday – is that the rights of the Irish in Britain are guaranteed by the Common Travel Area and the Ireland Act of 1949, which stipulated that neither Ireland nor its citizens were foreign for the purposes of UK law.
> 
> Here the good news story starts to fall apart. The Common Travel Area is a political agreement. It is non-binding and confers no legal rights upon Irish or British citizens. Contrary to what Nokes and the government appear to believe, its continued existence after Brexit won't guarantee that the Irish in Britain "have all of the access to benefits and services" they have now, just a preferential migration regime.



and




> The inconvenient truth appears to be that most of the actual, legally-watertight privileges enjoyed by Irish people in Britain instead flow from EU citizenship. A report by leading migration barrister Simon Cox found in November that the existing settlement is a "patchwork that may fall apart under post-Brexit political and practical pressures" and said it was impossible to identify a single legal right explicitly conferred on Irish nationals by the 1949 act.
> 
> The rights to live, work, access the NHS for free, claim benefits and welfare, and that of British citizenship for children born to Irish parents will all be legally unclear should the government choose merely to keep things as they are in legal terms. Ditto the rights of Irish citizens who arrive from outside the CTA to live and work in the UK.





After Windrush, will the rights of the Irish in Brexit Britain really be safe?



Hopefully the guarantees put in the otherwise loathsome government immigration bill will help long-term future of Irish citizens living here.

BTW these issues haven't been due to " Remainers"whinging  about Brexit. These are real issues that effect non UK citizens living in this Country.

Had Eire citizen I work with asking me about this today.

Its why I opposed Brexit. Whatever Brexiteers might say Brexit is a serious worry for non UK citizens here. Some of whom have lived here for years.


----------



## Gramsci (Jan 29, 2019)

I asked my Spanish partner about this "settled status" scheme. She is worried. She has Spanish friends in London ( who I have met) who think Brexit and having to apply to stay here is crap. These are not highly paid middle class people. They are working class. Came here to work and have been building lives here.

My partner will fall few months short of getting "settled status" here. So is likely to get the inferior pre settled status. She is worried.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jan 29, 2019)

It's totally fucking shit, and Labour's shit stance makes it even worse - if there is a brexit and the tories get their shit schemes through, I would anticipate any future Labour govt doing fuck all to change it, just like they did fuck all to change the restrictions on immigrants from the Commonwealth first brought in by the tories. 

Like you, this issue is my main reason to oppose brexit, it is my 'red line'.


----------



## zahir (Jan 29, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Like you, this issue is my main reason to oppose brexit, it is my 'red line'.


Same here.


----------



## T & P (Jan 30, 2019)

If the recent claim that British expats will get no free healthcare anymore in the event of a no-deal Brexit turned out to be true, that does mean we EU citizens living here will also lose free NHS access? Does anyone know if the settled status offers guaranteed free healthcare in any scenario?


----------



## DexterTCN (Jan 30, 2019)

Depending on your (and your family if relevant) general health you may want to look into a private scheme for a period because no-one really knows yet.

Fuck knows if EHIC will still be available.


----------



## zahir (Jan 31, 2019)

Thread on the right to rent. I can see this happening to a lot more people after brexit.



British man and family made homeless by Home Office after it blocks them from renting property


----------



## zahir (Jan 31, 2019)

Agents 'turning away tenants because of no clarity of Right to Rent post-Brexit'


> Cautious agents are already rejecting tenants because of a lack of any official guidance on compliance with Right to Rent, rather than risk £30,000 penalties.
> 
> The situation has been made worse by a new White Paper on immigration which, mystifyingly, has totally neglected to mention the post-Brexit future of Right to Rent checks.
> 
> ...


----------



## ska invita (Feb 1, 2019)

Some broad strokes about the immigration white paper, including its implications
https://www.vice.com/en_uk/article/...overnment-still-wants-your-trust-on-migration


----------



## zahir (Feb 1, 2019)

Brexit's Destruction Of British And EU Citizens' Rights Will Tear Families Apart - RightsInfo


> *Fiona Godfrey was born and raised in Yorkshire and currently lives in Luxembourg with her German-Chilean husband and two children. As Brexit looms Fiona outlines how the UK’s restrictive family reunification rules will become even tougher and the stripping of her EU citizen rights could result in her family splitting up. Millions of British citizens currently living in the EU could also be affected.*
> 
> In March 1987 I was sharing a house in Sheffield with my German-Chilean student boyfriend, who is a German citizen, when we woke up to a letter from the Home Office advising him that he was not entitled to Indefinite Leave to Remain (ILR) – despite having lived in the UK since 1978 as a minor dependent and then a student – and that he may be in the UK illegally.
> 
> ...



Fiona Godfrey speaks briefly near the start of this video.


----------



## ska invita (Feb 2, 2019)

This isnt on the subject of EU citizens but I think this paragraph is going to apply post March 2021
Home Office 'wrecked my life' with misuse of immigration law


> Appealing against a decision can take years, during which time the applicant cannot work or rent property, and neither they nor their immediate family can use the NHS. Many feel forced to appeal because accepting the decision makes it highly unlikely they will ever get a visa for any other country.


it takes years now, so....


----------



## zahir (Feb 2, 2019)

One family’s Brexit dilemma: ‘I’ll fight to keep us together until the very last day’


> It is the worst kind of choice: does Patricia Goossens lose her Belgian husband and their family’s only guaranteed source of income, or does she abandon her home in Scotland and leave her autistic adult daughter behind?





> “I could stay put and lose my husband, who is disabled and needs me, and I love him and don’t want to be parted from him,” Patricia told the _Observer_. “But when I go with him, I lose my daughter, whom I also love and who also needs me.”


----------



## gentlegreen (Feb 2, 2019)

DexterTCN said:


> Fuck knows if EHIC will still be available.


EHIC is (was) only for holiday visits.
For me to retire to (France) without employment there, (even now) I have to prove that a. I have a guaranteed income of £550 per month and b. that I have private health cover.
So I doubt the stories that people were able to make do with EHIC for the first couple of years.


----------



## flypanam (Feb 3, 2019)

Labour MP’s get to heart of the matter MPs slam Android-only app for EU citizens to apply for settled UK status I see the scullery Maid Jess Phillips is leading the charge.

Nevermind the scheme that the straight forward bit. it’s the bit where the border is potrolled by employers, landlords, estate agents and doctors that is the worry.

Usual suspects usual dullards.


----------



## ska invita (Feb 3, 2019)

flypanam said:


> Labour MP’s get to heart of the matter MPs slam Android-only app for EU citizens to apply for settled UK status I see the scullery Maid Jess Phillips is leading the charge.
> 
> Nevermind the scheme that the straight forward bit. it’s the bit where the border is potrolled by employers, landlords, estate agents and doctors that is the worry.
> 
> Usual suspects usual dullards.


quick off the mark this lot arent they? The app is already live and the process is rolling out ffs


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 3, 2019)

gentlegreen said:


> EHIC is (was) only for holiday visits.
> For me to retire to (France) without employment there, (even now) I have to prove that a. I have a guaranteed income of £550 per month and b. that I have private health cover.
> So I doubt the stories that people were able to make do with EHIC for the first couple of years.


There's no check on EHIC usage but its use is supposed to be restricted to those who live in the UK and when it expires you have to have a UK address to reapply.


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Feb 4, 2019)

ska invita said:


> quick off the mark this lot arent they? The app is already live and the process is rolling out ffs


You don't think it's actually their job to respond to stuff like this do you?


----------



## zahir (Feb 5, 2019)

Idris2002 said:


> Has anyone given you a firm position on the status of Irish people? Before I folded my tent and vanished into the night, I did read something claiming that the consensus that we have automatic permanent leave to remain was wrong. . .


This article suggests some potential problems, though not with leave to remain.

https://www.politico.eu/article/equal-rights-in-northern-ireland-threatened-by-brexit/


> The list of issues to sort out is long: from immigration rules, to rights related to residency, access to education, social security and health care. To take one example, under Northern Irish health care legislation, only British citizens or European Economic Area citizens are currently entitled to certain types of home help or community care. But EEA citizens, including Northern Ireland-born Irish citizens, stand to lose this benefit after Brexit if there is no deal and hence no transition period.


----------



## zahir (Feb 5, 2019)

Not specifically about brexit but a thread on education about migration.


----------



## DexterTCN (Feb 5, 2019)

zahir said:


> Not specifically about brexit but a thread on education about migration.





> The worst part of the worksheet is, however, the section entitled 'Impacts on Peterborough', which sets out the impact of Polish migration (NB: the grammatical errors in this section made me double-check on where this came from, but parents have confirmed origin etc to me).


Fuckin hell.


----------



## CRI (Feb 6, 2019)

DexterTCN said:


> Fuckin hell.


I mean this - fuck me!



Seems this was uploaded to the TES resource website by a teacher, and they removed it as soon as it was brought to their attention.  But some comments on the thread suggest this isn't the only exercise with racist undertones (or outright racism and xenophobia) that kids have brought home from school / teachers have used.  In this case, there was a lone Polish girl in the class when it was given out.  Christ.


----------



## ska invita (Feb 6, 2019)

Why are these things always in comic sans?
(ah i see its the same paper)


----------



## zahir (Feb 9, 2019)

Agreement reached with EEA EFTA countries on residence rights in the event of no deal.

https://www.freemovement.org.uk/gov...ts-of-europeans-for-three-nationalities-only/


----------



## zahir (Feb 9, 2019)

Why Labour is dangerously foolish to turn against freedom of movement


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 9, 2019)

zahir said:


> Why Labour is dangerously foolish to turn against freedom of movement


But what do you think?


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 9, 2019)

CRI said:


> I mean this - fuck me!
> 
> View attachment 161155
> 
> Seems this was uploaded to the TES resource website by a teacher, and they removed it as soon as it was brought to their attention.  But some comments on the thread suggest this isn't the only exercise with racist undertones (or outright racism and xenophobia) that kids have brought home from school / teachers have used.  In this case, there was a lone Polish girl in the class when it was given out.  Christ.


Surprised by the selling of drunks


----------



## zahir (Feb 9, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> But what do you think?


It seems like a reasonable article as far as it goes. I’m not sure how far it really explains the Labour leadership’s position on freedom of movement. Do you disagree with it?


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 9, 2019)

zahir said:


> It seems like a reasonable article as far as it goes. I’m not sure how far it really explains the Labour leadership’s position on freedom of movement.


Oh? Do go on


----------



## zahir (Feb 9, 2019)

I’m not sure I’ve got much to add. If you have a critique of the article I’d be happy to read it.

ETA: no endorsement of DIEM25 intended.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 9, 2019)

zahir said:


> I’m not sure I’ve got much to add. If you have a critique of the article I’d be happy to read it.
> 
> ETA: no endorsement of DIEM25 intended.


Tbh I'd rather read your views than comment on some article from the new statesman


----------



## zahir (Feb 9, 2019)

My views in general?

I’m in favour, for the most part, of people being able to travel, live and work where they want. I don’t want to see EU citizens lose their rights here, or the British lose their rights in the EU. I’ve no wish to defend the  EU’s fortress Europe policies either. I don’t see why getting rid of EU freedom of movement had to be intrinsic  to brexit but that’s where both main parties have gone with it.


----------



## zahir (Feb 9, 2019)

Another article by the same writer. 

Meet Europe’s Left Nationalists


----------



## kebabking (Feb 9, 2019)

zahir said:


> ... I don’t see why getting rid of EU freedom of movement had to be intrinsic  to brexit but that’s where both main parties have gone with it.



my conversations with those who voted leave - and a good few who voted remain in the end - suggests to me that ending free movement was _more_ important to a large slice of the electorate than leaving the EU as a whole.

to think that Labour have just randomly picked ending free movement out of the air for absolutely no reason is just silly.


----------



## zahir (Feb 9, 2019)

It may reflect a large part of public opinion but that doesn’t make it intrinsic to leaving the EU. Surely it would have been much easier to get an agreement with the EU without red lines on ending freedom of movement.

ETA: Ivan Rogers had a bit to say about the red lines on freedom of movement and negotiations with the EU in his UCL talk (pages 21-22). His assessment seems realistic to me: https://www.ucl.ac.uk/european-inst...iles/sir_ivan_rogers_lecture_ucl_22012019.pdf


----------



## Yossarian (Feb 9, 2019)

CRI said:


> I mean this - fuck me!n
> 
> View attachment 161155
> 
> Seems this was uploaded to the TES resource website by a teacher, and they removed it as soon as it was brought to their attention.  But some comments on the thread suggest this isn't the only exercise with racist undertones (or outright racism and xenophobia) that kids have brought home from school / teachers have used.  In this case, there was a lone Polish girl in the class when it was given out.  Christ.



"social unrest in *the *Peterborough between the English, Polish, and other eastern* European's*"

This teacher would deserve to be shown the door even if their worksheets weren't massively racist.


----------



## kebabking (Feb 9, 2019)

zahir said:


> It may reflect a large part of public opinion but that doesn’t make it intrinsic to leaving the EU. Surely it would have been much easier to get an agreement with the EU without red lines on ending freedom of movement.



Is that not a bit like suggesting that it will be easier to negotiate an amicable divorce if you agree to not actually get divorced, not move out of the marital home, not drag up every argument, and not start dating Kirsten from Accounts - academic, and irrelevant?


----------



## zahir (Feb 9, 2019)

Maybe. My main reason for not voting for brexit was the likely effect on EU residents here and British residents in the EU. I couldn’t really see brexit happening without migrants losing rights.


----------



## kenny g (Feb 9, 2019)

CRI said:


> I mean this - fuck me!
> 
> View attachment 161155
> 
> Seems this was uploaded to the TES resource website by a teacher, and they removed it as soon as it was brought to their attention.  But some comments on the thread suggest this isn't the only exercise with racist undertones (or outright racism and xenophobia) that kids have brought home from school / teachers have used.  In this case, there was a lone Polish girl in the class when it was given out.  Christ.



Jesus fucking christ. This is insane. Comic sans is suddenly not so important.....


----------



## Poot (Feb 9, 2019)

Yossarian said:


> "social unrest in *the *Peterborough between the English, Polish, and other eastern* European's*"
> 
> This teacher would deserve to be shown the door even if their worksheets weren't massively racist.


Not to mention the rubbish causing rats. I had always assumed that was the job of a mummy rat and a daddy rat who love each other very much.


----------



## Gramsci (Feb 10, 2019)

zahir said:


> Why Labour is dangerously foolish to turn against freedom of movement



I agree with this.



> Instead, EU free movement should be a springboard to a more global system of open migration. Labour should be leading the way to defend EU free movement and extend it beyond Europe’s borders, shattering the fortress that Brussels has constructed around the continent.



Law week I was chatting to shopkeeper I know in Brixton. Her family came here from Eritrea in 80s as asylum seekers. She was telling me she could not understand how anyone on the left could support Brexit. Even though it doesn't affect her directly she saw the referendum as being a vote on immigration. Came up as left wing friend of hers ( she is involved in community issues in Brixton) supported Brexit. 

Corbyns stance on immigration might go down well in other parts of the country but not in Brixton.

Same issue came up yesterday in Loughborough Junction. Talking to local person from the estate and shopkeeper. Same response.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 10, 2019)

People from Eritrea are classless. Owning shops.


----------



## Gramsci (Feb 10, 2019)

kebabking said:


> Is that not a bit like suggesting that it will be easier to negotiate an amicable divorce if you agree to not actually get divorced, not move out of the marital home, not drag up every argument, and not start dating Kirsten from Accounts - academic, and irrelevant?



zahir point that leaving the EU didn't necessarily mean stopping free movement. The Government have had to put bill thorough parliament to end  free movement. This is a political choice by this government. 

I take you point in post 351 that many people voted to end free movement. Immigration was a big issue.

Which is reason why I was Remain. Its also why a lot of people in my area of London ,Lambeth ,are Remainers.


----------



## Raheem (Feb 11, 2019)

kebabking said:


> Is that not a bit like suggesting that it will be easier to negotiate an amicable divorce if you agree to not actually get divorced, not move out of the marital home, not drag up every argument, and not start dating Kirsten from Accounts - academic, and irrelevant?


Or it might be like acknowledging that an amicable divorce is going to mean give and take and doesn't have to mean you will never again have anything to do with each other ever again. 

That said, yes, it is a fundamental problem at the heart of Brexit that what was on the ballot paper was tangential to what a lot of people were voting about


----------



## gentlegreen (Feb 11, 2019)

Raheem said:


> Or it might be like acknowledging that an amicable divorce is going to mean give and take and doesn't have to mean you will never again have anything to do with each other ever again.
> 
> That said, yes, it is a fundamental problem at the heart of Brexit that what was on the ballot paper was tangential to what a lot of people were voting about


What was on the ballot paper was "succinct to the point of meaninglessness" as the tutor wrote on the one social science essay I ever handed in.
Or as James O' Brien repeatedly points out  - *whose* Brexit did you vote for ? And those same people changed their definitions as soon as the result was known (all the main "leave" advocates had claimed leaving the single market would be madness)



Spoiler: youtube video


----------



## gentlegreen (Feb 11, 2019)

I don't remember seeing ANY referendum advertising at the time, but fecking hell :-



Spoiler: youtube "leave" advert








I'm amazed the channel is still up.


----------



## zahir (Feb 12, 2019)

Video of today’s Home Affairs Committee hearing on the EU settlement scheme. I don’t find any of it reassuring.

Parliamentlive.tv

This thread highlights a few of the points raised.


----------



## ska invita (Feb 12, 2019)

zahir said:


> Video of today’s Home Affairs Committee hearing on the EU settlement scheme. I don’t find any of it reassuring.
> 
> Parliamentlive.tv
> 
> This thread highlights a few of the points raised.



Exactly what i was saying in the OP in this exchange...

Do you know anything about this hearing? Why its taking place, what power it has, that kind of thing?


----------



## zahir (Feb 12, 2019)

I don’t know that much about how it works, beyond making recommendations.

Role - Home Affairs Committee


> The Committee chooses its own subjects of inquiry and seeks written and oral evidence from a wide range of relevant groups and individuals. At the end of an inquiry the Committee will often produce a report setting out its findings and making recommendations to the Government. The Government must respond to each of the report’s recommendations within two months of publication.


----------



## zahir (Feb 12, 2019)

The Independent has a report based on the hearing, though it’s a bit of a half-hearted effort.

EU citizens’ children could lose right to stay in UK, senior MP warns


> The alarm has been raised over youngsters who – in a repeat of the Windrush Scandal – do not apply for the new settled status, perhaps because their parents believe them to be British.
> 
> Campaigners giving evidence to the Commons Home Affairs Committee told MPs of “a real concern” that there are no “safeguards in place”.
> 
> Yvette Cooper, the committee’s chair, said: “You could have quite a lot of children who could pass the deadline for the settlement scheme, be completely unaware of their rights – and to lose their rights”.





> Ms Cooper also set out the grim situation for any EU citizen without settled status after Brexit “even though might have been living here all their lives”.
> 
> “If they don’t complete the application process by the deadline they will be here unlawfully, potentially unable to re-enter the country if they leave to visit family, potentially committing criminal offences just by working, potentially told by their landlord that they can no longer rent a property, potentially told by the NHS that they are no longer entitled to urgent treatment they might need, despite the fact they may have been paying in taxes for very many years,” she warned.


----------



## Gramsci (Feb 12, 2019)

The issue of EU people accessing government data on them to help prove their right to be here is still going slowly through the legal system. Now Judge last month granted right to judicial review. Its imo totally bizarre situation, very much part of hostile enviromment, where people can't access data that might help their case,



> They are challenging a section of the Data Protection Act 2018 that contains a new exemption permitting Home Office “data controllers” to restrict access to personal data if it would be likely to prejudice “effective immigration control”.



Its a misuse of data protection. Government is effectively saying individual can't access data that might help their case to stay here. Thus in Orwellian speak prejudicing effective immigration control.

From:

Data laws could harm EU citizens' attempts to stay in UK, court told

See here Leigh Day from the legal team:




> The campaigners argue that by denying people the right to access their data people will not be able to properly challenge errors made by the Home Office. This could lead to applications relating to immigration statuses being wrongly refused or wrongful deportations taking place.
> 
> Rosa Curling, solicitor at Leigh Day, said:
> 
> “Our clients are delighted with the decision today. The attempt to remove so many people’s data rights is particularly worrying in the context of the Home Office’s hostile environment policy. Our clients are pleased to be have been granted permission so they can present their arguments in full to the court at a substantive hearing.”






> Nicolas Hatton of the3million, the EU citizens group, says:
> “If over three million EU citizens are going to apply for settled status, they must be able to do so knowing it’s safe for them to do it, with the right to see what the Home Office is doing with their data.




Campaign groups granted permission for judicial review of immigration exemption


----------



## Gramsci (Feb 12, 2019)

One might be forgiven for thinking that Home Office just wishes that a percentage of EU citizens will just give up and go.


----------



## DexterTCN (Feb 14, 2019)

On the 'test' version of the citizen test it seems one of the questions is-

What is the highest value note in circulation?

a) £20
b) £70
c) £50
d) £100

the correct answer is apparently c.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Feb 14, 2019)

DexterTCN said:


> On the 'test' version of the citizen test it seems one of the questions is-
> 
> What is the highest value note in circulation?
> 
> ...



there is a 100 pound note in scotland.

i didn't know that until fairly recently


----------



## cupid_stunt (Feb 14, 2019)

Puddy_Tat said:


> there is a 100 pound note in scotland.
> 
> i didn't know that until fairly recently



IIRC both some Scottish & some Northern Irish banks issue £100 notes.


----------



## DexterTCN (Feb 14, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> IIRC both some Scottish & some Northern Irish banks issue £100 notes.


Yes it's a bit of a trick question, you can be wrong whichever way you answer.


----------



## DexterTCN (Feb 14, 2019)




----------



## zahir (Feb 14, 2019)




----------



## zahir (Feb 14, 2019)

From the above I’m not sure if a distinction is going to be made between bringing over a non-EU partner or a partner from the EU. 

Will a British citizen who wants to marry someone from the EU be affected by the £18K minimum income rule?


----------



## CRI (Feb 14, 2019)

DexterTCN said:


>



That was pretty ghastly, but some of the poems in response are good.


----------



## CRI (Feb 14, 2019)

zahir said:


> From the above I’m not sure if a distinction is going to be made between bringing over a non-EU partner or a partner from the EU.
> 
> Will a British citizen who wants to marry someone from the EU be affected by the £18K minimum income rule?


I'm pretty sure that spouses from EU countries will be regarded the same as spouses from any other country, unless by some miracle alternatives are included in a "deal."  There is also the strange situation for people in Northern Ireland.  Under the GFA, they can hold Irish, British or both nationalities.  However, the Home Office regards them as British regardless, so if Irish citizens living there have spouses from other EU countries, they could also be in the shit.


----------



## zahir (Feb 14, 2019)

CRI said:


> I'm pretty sure that spouses from EU countries will be regarded the same as spouses from any other country, unless by some miracle alternatives are included in a "deal."



It looks like you’re right about this. I was just listening to the end of today’s Immigration Bill hearing and a witness from British in Europe raised it as an issue for British citizens living in the EU with an EU partner who want to move back to Britain. She gave the example of someone she knows who faces the choice of staying with a disabled partner in Italy (I think) or returning to look after her ageing parents in England. Meeting the £18K income requirement would be out of the question.

ETA: Video of the Immigration Bill hearing. The British in Europe witnesses are giving evidence in last 25 minutes or so.

Parliamentlive.tv


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## CRI (Feb 14, 2019)

zahir said:


> It looks like you’re right about this. I was just listening to the end of today’s Immigration Bill hearing and a witness from British in Europe raised it as an issue for British citizens living in the EU with an EU partner who want to move back to Britain. She gave the example of someone she knows who faces the choice of staying with a disabled partner in Italy (I think) or returning to look after her ageing parents in England. Meeting the £18K income requirement would be out of the question.


I think there are so many people who are still unaware of how this will impact on them or people close to them.

As an aside, in just the past 3 months or so, 4 people I know who are either citizens of other EU countries, or who have a spouse who is, have left the UK, for good.  Such a pointless fucking loss.


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## zahir (Feb 16, 2019)

One more problem with the settled status application scheme.

Petition: Provide settled and pre-settled status EU citizens a physical document as proof.


> EU citizens on the scheme have no documentary evidence to provide border agents, landlords and prospective employers their right to reside in the UK other than a website. Also the paperless system is potentially vulnerable to cyber-attacks. Provide a physical document/ID to prove settled status.




A cybersecurity lecturer writes...


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## zahir (Feb 16, 2019)




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## Puddy_Tat (Feb 16, 2019)

> to provide evidence for 6 months' residence on 2019?


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## zahir (Feb 16, 2019)

There’s more. Thread:


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## zahir (Feb 16, 2019)

CRI said:


> There is also the strange situation for people in Northern Ireland.  Under the GFA, they can hold Irish, British or both nationalities.  However, the Home Office regards them as British regardless



An account from someone faced with this.

UK Government Refuses to recognise Irish citizenship

I’m taking it that the route she’s followed couldn’t be used post-brexit.


----------



## zahir (Feb 16, 2019)

This is worth listening to.


Also.

What exactly will the Home Office do with the 3 million's private data?


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## ska invita (Feb 16, 2019)

zahir said:


> An account from someone faced with this.
> 
> UK Government Refuses to recognise Irish citizenship
> 
> I’m taking it that the route she’s followed couldn’t be used post-brexit.


Thanks for all the links.
Re NIreland, have I understood this right, basically according to the government everyone in NI has to choose between being British or Irish.... And if they chose Irish they have to go through the registration process to remain in NI legally?


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## zahir (Feb 16, 2019)

As I understand it the settled status regime doesn’t apply for the Irish. One thing they do lose in all this is the right, if they’re living in the UK, to bring in a partner from another country without having to meet the minimum income requirement. I’m not sure about other implications.


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## spitfire (Feb 16, 2019)

zahir said:


> As I understand it the settled status regime doesn’t apply for the Irish. One thing they do lose in all this is the right, if they’re living in the UK, to bring in a partner from another country without having to meet the minimum income requirement. I’m not sure about other implications.



Fucksakes, really? I've just started a new business and am on about half the min. reqs.

Mlle. Fire is on more than the min. (She's French).

Wonder how that will pan out?

Those tweets are about what I expected the level of competence to be with this whole shitshow. Useless.

And thanks zahir and ska invita for keeping the info coming.


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## zahir (Feb 16, 2019)

spitfire said:


> Fucksakes, really? I've just started a new business and am on about half the min. reqs.
> 
> Mlle. Fire is on more than the min. (She's French).
> 
> Wonder how that will pan out?



I’m fairly sure you’d be OK as it’s an existing relationship. I think the problems really start for new relationships beginning after brexit.


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## spitfire (Feb 16, 2019)

zahir said:


> I’m fairly sure you’d be OK as it’s an existing relationship. I think the problems really start for new relationships beginning after brexit.



Cheers,  I think this highlights one of the things that people are finding so distressing about it. I try and keep up with the developments, watch the news, read the useful bits of the threads on here and I'm still unsure what the fuck is going on. Luckily I'm fairly resilient mentally, as is Mlle. Fire but the stress for a lot of people must be terrible.

We've already agreed that if they make it too difficult or it gets too nasty living here we're off. Ireland or France. Toodle pip what what!


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## zahir (Feb 16, 2019)

I take it you’re both living here now. I think there may be problems for couples in your position living in other EU countries who want to move back to the UK. If you’re considering leaving the UK it might be worth thinking about the implications if you ever want to return.


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## spitfire (Feb 16, 2019)

Fair point but I reckon if we go, we're gone. We're both closer to 50 than 40 Mini Fire is 6 and she'd be happy as a pig in shit in either country. If I hadn't just got the new business going a move to Cannes was being talked about anyway.

As a last resort family history will probably get me a blue passport anyway and we'd have to get married. Neither of which we want to do.


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## zahir (Feb 16, 2019)

Here’s an example of an Irish citizen having problems over permanent residence. She’s from Belfast.

Home Office tells Northern Irish woman to prove right to live in Belfast


> To the couple’s shock, their application was refused on the grounds that the “sponsor”, Gemma, did not show any evidence that she had permanent residency, even though she had included her birth certificate showing she was born in the UK in 1981.
> 
> The Home Office told them their right of permanent residence had expired because they had been out of the country for more than two years. “We were floored by the letter which essentially said you have no right to be in Northern Ireland,” said Dominic.


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## zahir (Feb 16, 2019)

Some additional comments from legal people on this thread.


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## zahir (Feb 16, 2019)

Another thread. This may now have been superseded by provisions for the Irish in the current Immigration Bill.




ETA:


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## zahir (Feb 16, 2019)

Revealed: how Home Office hires out staff to hunt migrants


> According to internal documents seen by the _Observer_, the department is attempting to embed immigration officers at a rate of almost £60 an hour as part of an “enhanced checking service” being offered to public services, understood to include NHS trusts and local authorities, as well as private firms.
> 
> The organisations are offered “real-time” access to information about someone’s immigration status through an “on-site immigration official”, who can be asked to attend interviews and encourage undocumented migrants to leave the country voluntarily. The embedded official can also pass the details of undocumented migrants to immigration enforcement officers.


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## zahir (Feb 16, 2019)

Thread.


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## zahir (Feb 16, 2019)

This summarises some of the issues with applying for settled status.

Warning lights flashing over EU settled status app


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## zahir (Feb 17, 2019)

This looks like the situation a lot more people will find themselves in after brexit.

“He is the only person I have”: how a single payslip nearly ruined an engagement


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## CRI (Feb 17, 2019)

zahir said:


> This looks like the situation a lot more people will find themselves in after brexit.
> 
> “He is the only person I have”: how a single payslip nearly ruined an engagement


Christ that's grim. Back in 1990, I was in London on a student visa, married a UK national who was earning just above what would have been minimum wage.  All I had to do was send my US passport, copy of the marriage certificate, letter from the landlord (Father in law), letter from the college and maybe a bank statement to the Home Office.  Couple weeks later passport was stamped for a year.  Sent the whole shebang in again after that year, and got the passport back with indefinite leave to remain.  I'm pretty sure I didn't pay anything, apart from maybe recorded delivery charges.  It really was that simple.  And, I was eligible for UK citizenship after 3 years being married back then.  I know it wasn't so easy for spouses from certain countries or for BAME British citizens, but theoretically, the process was easy peasy.  Now, Jesus wept!   And it will get worse with the new Immigration Bill.  Gotta control the peasants I guess.


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## zahir (Feb 18, 2019)

The Future Of EU Citizens In The UK Has Never Been More Uncertain – Politicians Must Take Action Or Forever Be Remembered For Failing Millions


> For EU citizens, times are difficult primarily because of settled status, the new status we all have to apply for if we want to stay. There are already so many problems with settled status that it is difficult to know where to even begin. While Immigration Minister Caroline Nokes hails the processing of thousands of applications as a success, all I can see is that many applications resulted in the granting of pre-settled status only. That status has a time stamp on it and it does not automatically change to settled status. What this means is that we could end up in a situation where EU citizens become illegal in a few years.
> 
> If patterns continue in a way similar to now, we could be looking at hundreds of thousands of illegal EU citizens. Together with immigrants from elsewhere, they would, as we learned last weekend, essentially be hunted. And they could include a lot of children.
> 
> ...


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## zahir (Feb 18, 2019)

Migration Observatory report - Unsettled Status? which EU citizens are at risk of failing to secure their rights after Brexit?

https://migrationobservatory.ox.ac....-failing-to-secure-their-rights-after-brexit/


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## ska invita (Feb 18, 2019)

zahir said:


> Migration Observatory report - Unsettled Status? which EU citizens are at risk of failing to secure their rights after Brexit?
> 
> https://migrationobservatory.ox.ac....-failing-to-secure-their-rights-after-brexit/


I posted that in the opening post in this thread - unavoidable hard truths in that


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## zahir (Feb 19, 2019)

I’d forgotten that you posted it.

What everyone seems to be saying is that the number of people who slip through the net, for whatever reason, is going to be in the hundreds of thousands.


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## CRI (Feb 19, 2019)

zahir said:


> I’d forgotten that you posted it.
> 
> What everyone seems to be saying is that the number of people who slip through the net, for whatever reason, is going to be in the hundreds of thousands.


Yes, this, and I'm trying to wrap my  head about what happens to them when the deadline passes?  Will they be rounded up and deported?  What happens if they own their homes or businesses?  Are they forced to sell, or are these confiscated by the government.  I mean I hope something will happen to halt the shower of shit that is the "settled status" scheme before it gets to that stage.  But following along to its logical conclusion, they'd have no right to remain, so would have to leave, voluntarily, or not.

And, it seems the status could theoretically be revoked.  Just wondering how and in what circumstances, and what would happen to the person.


----------



## zahir (Feb 21, 2019)

zahir said:


> UK Government Refuses to recognise Irish citizenship




More by Emma DeSouza on the citizenship issue and the Good Friday Agreement.

Brexit is airbrushing my rights under the Good Friday Agreement out of history ǀ View


> However, the backstop in its enormity has overshadowed a developing crisis around citizenship, identity and the Good Friday Agreement. The fact that British passport holders in Northern Ireland will have significantly different rights to their Irish neighbours or that Irish passport holders are being advised to renounce British citizenship - to be accepted as Irish and not British under the terms of the Good Friday Agreement - has received little coverage.





> We’re already seeing a manifestation of the effect Brexit will have on the delicate balance within our society. We’re seeing Northern Ireland-born British citizens having to obtain Irish passports in order to access freedom of movement across the EU. We’re seeing Northern Ireland-born Irish citizens having to formally renounce British citizenship in order to access the EU’s family life rights. And as for dual nationals, they already experience a restriction to their EU rights in that they cannot benefit from EU family life rights and will not, as recently revealed, be able to secure their EU rights under the Settlement Scheme. Neither will Irish citizens.
> 
> Under the current circumstances, each of the three categories of citizenship, to which all Northern Ireland-born citizens are entitled, come with complex restrictions which instead actively force citizens to choose one citizenship, one identity or the other. This is a tremendous breach of the Good Friday Agreement and the principles of its foundation; a breach that Brexit is exacerbating.





> Even more concerning than the Home Office relentlessly dragging families like mine through the courts with appeals, is the statement that it is the UK government’s “view that an international agreement such as the Belfast Good Friday cannot supersede domestic legislation.” Essentially, the UK government does not consider itself legally bound to the very treaty it currently claims to be protecting. This raises very real concerns and fears that the government may further distance itself from its obligations under the Agreement after Brexit.


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## collectordave (Feb 22, 2019)

StoneRoad said:


> And will the reverse process happen to UK citizens over the ditch, somewhere in Europe ?



Expat in Portugal.

Portugal already run a scheme where all EU citizens need to register to become resident. When entering the country you have "tourist rights" which means you can stay as long as you like but can be deported for any trivial reason. Health care etc. is dependent upon the EHIC for EU members and health insurance for non EU members. The next stage is to register as resident the first time is for five years you need to show proof such as home ownership bank account etc. During this five years you are not eligible to claim social security benefits however you can then register with a doctor as your family doctor and you are not deported for trivial reasons. After the five years you can apply for permanent residency using the initial registration document as proof, a few more rights are granted at this stage.

You can of course apply at any time for citizenship.

Portugal has already affirmed that British Citizens resident in Portugal i.e. the initial or permanent will have their RESIDENCY rights protected post Brexit. Note: Tourist status will change.

Two things confuse me. The first is why has Britain not exercised it's sovereign rights and had a similar scheme running during it's membership of the EU? It is every countries right to know who is living within its borders.

The second is that even with such a long running scheme (20 years at least) take up is still not 100% many simply believe that as I am married to someone who is registered I am ok, whereas it is quite clear that all family members need to apply as individuals.

Some who know about the scheme simply will not register for many and varied reasons. Some of these have even bought houses here. Risky as a tourist.

The scheme has no complications but does raise things to be aware of such as driving in Portugal. A British driving licence is valid as long as it shows your current address and is invalid after 28 days of a change of address so 28 days after obtaining residency a UK licence is no longer valid and should be exchanged for a Portuguese licence, this is not a bother the IMTT and DVLC have an agreement for these to be exchanged.

Scary bit here is that European rights for expatriates are subject to reciprocal arrangements with Britain so we have to watch carefully what Britain is doing.

I believe it is not the same in all EU member countries.


----------



## zahir (Feb 22, 2019)

A thread questioning assurances made by Jeremy Hunt in Portugal.


----------



## collectordave (Feb 23, 2019)

My first thoughts on reading this article was a picture of British MPs standing on the terrace of the houses of parliament drinking (at the TAX payers expence) having a laugh and saying "hey that is a good law I really approve of that" that is a piece of legislation reciving approval.

Now the gap between "Approval" and "enshrined in law" is not as wide as Mr Hunts thoughts and reality so I do not believe the EU27 are mislead in the slightest.  The sad part is that ordinary citizens are misled expat or living in Brtain.

The trick is in the words used take "enshrined" as an example as a word it conjures up the idea of some poor mason carving the law into stone tablets with a nod to Moses. In reallity with the British Government it means we have written it on our wax tablet (wax of course melts when the going gets hot so no evidence).

Another set of words "the United Kingdom has already decided that the rights of European citizens living in the United Kingdom on 29 March 2019, the date of Brexit, will be fully respected under the terms that had been negotiated" sounds great but all that has been negotiated so far is a reciprocal agreement sorry cannot call it agreement yet as the british government has still to agree, when they do it becomes an agreement. 

"Decided" is one step down from approved it means we thought about it but need a late night session in the bar to see if we approve.

The other part not stated here is the immigration law proposals highlighted in this thread. It means Britain has yet to decide what rights EU citizens will have so what will be respected. If the British decide that EU citizens have no rights then the british will respect them.

Of course if the deal is signed including the reciprocal bit and Portugal pass a law respecting British expat rights Britain will have to respect EU citizens rights in the same manner as Portugal.

This could be the shortest lived treaty\agreement\deal that has ever been!


----------



## zahir (Feb 23, 2019)

Thread - EU citizens refused platform on People’s Vote March.


----------



## ska invita (Feb 23, 2019)

_dont mention the foreigners... i mentioned it once but i think i got away with it_


----------



## redsquirrel (Feb 23, 2019)

zahir said:


> Thread - EU citizens refused platform on People’s Vote March.


And?

Come this is supposed to be a discussion board, make some comment at least.
If all you want to redo is post up links to threads why not just get a twitter account.

Oh and this is the politics that this individual is supporting


> I understand why some are uneasy about TIG. I certainly have many questions. But the bottom line is simple: both May and Corbyn support the most destructive but unnecessary act of self-harm ever known. Black and white politics will not help us at this watershed moment.
> 
> Black and white politics based on party loyalties have already failed millions. I understand why it's difficult. But it is very clear that the only way forward is a new alliance that cuts across traditional party lines in the best interest of the country.


----------



## zahir (Feb 23, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> Oh and this is the politics that this individual is supporting



To be clear I’ve no sympathy for the centrist realignment that she’s supporting. This does feel like a common narrative among people on social media campaigning for the rights of EU citizens. I don’t think that necessarily takes away from useful information or analysis that they come up with. I haven’t found that much from sources that are more in line with my own views, though maybe I’m looking in the wrong places. I’d have thought them being refused a platform by the People’s Vote lot speaks for itself, as far as putting any faith in remain campaigners to defend their interests.


----------



## zahir (Feb 23, 2019)

To add to the above I think part of the reason for this political stance is that the Labour leadership have adopted an anti-immigration position on brexit. They’re committed to ending freedom of movement. Anyone campaigning in the interests of EU citizens here or British citizens in the EU has every right to be dismayed by this.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Feb 23, 2019)

I don't find it at all surprising that someone might have trouble raising this issue in the current Remain campaign environment - politically it seems to be dominated by neoliberals with no more interest in the people involved than the neoliberals who dominate Leave. They have the same practical goal, limited immigration with controls that make the immigrants an exploitable subclass, they just draw different lines as to how that can be best done.

I've seen "no borders" people on Remain marches and I just felt like saying "you know that 90% of other people here would say 'hmm well that's a bit much we need some controls after all'".


----------



## CRI (Feb 23, 2019)

zahir said:


> To add to the above I think part of the reason for this political stance is that the Labour leadership have adopted an anti-immigration position on brexit. They’re committed to ending freedom of movement. Anyone campaigning in the interests of EU citizens here or British citizens in the EU has every right to be dismayed by this.



At first, I was surprised to see in the Twitter thread above that the Peoples Vote bunch want nothing to do with UK residents who are citizens of other EU countries.  As you say, leadership of the Labour Party, as well as the Tories. has embraced an anti-immigrant, isolationist stance, which seems integral to their determination to leave the EU, come Hell or high water.  But, you'd half expect those _opposed_ to leaving the EU to use the shitty treatment of non UK EU nationals as yet another good reason to not leave the EU.  

Sadly, it probably just shows how deeply embedded xenophobia has become in the UK (or more specifically, parts of England and perhaps Wales,) that folk are either afraid to ally openly with EU 27 citizens because they think that's toxic to their cause, or because it's just become normalised to think immigration is a bad thing, whether your politics are left, right, centre or non-existent. Jesus, is that where we are now?


----------



## Dogsauce (Feb 24, 2019)

CRI said:


> Sadly, it probably just shows how deeply embedded xenophobia has become in the UK (or more specifically, parts of England and perhaps Wales,)



Northern Ireland and Scotland famously free from bigotry and xenophobia, right?


----------



## CRI (Feb 24, 2019)

Dogsauce said:


> Northern Ireland and Scotland famously free from bigotry and xenophobia, right?


Oh right, I must say "Not all English" then.

You know I'm talking about the result of the referendum vote, which we are told repeatedly is the "will of the people."   Back atcha!


----------



## redsquirrel (Feb 24, 2019)

Underneath the above crap from the loon there is something to be thought about.

Polling shows that the attitudes of people living in Scotland to immigration are not especially different from those living in the rest of the UK (1, 2 and I'm sure UKpollingreport had a good piece on this but I can't find it now). So if Scotland is a less of a "hostile environment" for migrants this suggests it is less to do with any greater xenophobia of people living in England and Wales and more about material factors.

EDIT: So the obvious questions are what are these factors and how do we develop them.


----------



## collectordave (Feb 24, 2019)

CRI said:


> You know I'm talking about the result of the referendum vote, which we are told repeatedly is the "will of the people."



Not the will of the prople again!

The slightly larger minority that voted for Brexit versus the smaller minority that voted to remain and the majority that did not vote, seems to me the "Will Of The People" is not really known. 

In my naive opinion I feel that MPs we have elected would operate in the best interests of the country not as I seem to have started believing in their own interest.

I have had a dream where anyone standing for election to parliament has to face a test designed to see if they are "self centered prats" or genuinly interested in seeing Britain being governed in Britains interest.

For the life of me though i cannot think of any questions to put in the test. Of course it would have to go before parliament to be voted in as well. It would be an opportunity to laugh at the antics of British politicians, I wonder how such a vote would go?


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## danny la rouge (Feb 24, 2019)

collectordave said:


> Not the will of the prople again!
> 
> The slightly larger minority that voted for Brexit versus the smaller minority that voted to remain and the majority that did not vote, seems to me the "Will Of The People" is not really known.
> 
> ...


You are labouring under the misapprehension that it is the role of parliament to represent the interests of the people. It isn’t. It is the role of parliament to represent the interests of property, in particular capital.

Therefore anyone who gets sucked into the machine gets co-opted to those ends. People who go there with the best of intentions soon find out “the realities”, and “realpolitik”, and procedure all mean they can’t do those “naive” things they initially hoped. 

Expecting parliament to represent the interests of the people is like expecting weed killer to feed plants. That’s not what it’s for.


----------



## DexterTCN (Feb 24, 2019)

Dogsauce said:


> Northern Ireland and Scotland famously free from bigotry and xenophobia, right?


No they're not, sadly.

Maybe  you'd like to post some pics of those primarily responsible for it in Scotland and NI?

Maybe some marches?  Some reports of hate crimes?

Maybe we'll get a better idea of who it is.


----------



## collectordave (Feb 25, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> You are labouring under the misapprehension that it is the role of parliament to represent the interests of the people. It isn’t. It is the role of parliament to represent the interests of property, in particular capital.



Thankyou for extending my political education.

Just to be sure what you are saying, in this case, is that when a politician cites "the will of the people" they are just lying!

Meanwhile back in dreamland would it not be nice if the MPs deserting their parties formed an independants alliance standing for the interests of the people using truth, honesty and openness as the mainstays of their political agenda?

Damn! Reality kicks in now I am depressed.


----------



## bemused (Feb 25, 2019)

I wasn't too worried about Brexit, however, watching these headbangers I dug out my naturalisation certificate a few weeks ago.


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## flypanam (Feb 25, 2019)

My wife and I travelled back from Bari on Saturday night, got a grilling at the border force post;
1. The border guard had a go at me for travelling on my Irish passport card and not my paged passport. Passport card has been in operation for 4 years and I've never had  problem before.
2. My wife got grilled over having two passports. One with her EU family visa water ink stamp and the other her valid Canadian passport. I had to explain she didn't get a bio metric card when she applied because she was told by the home office she wouldn't need it.
3. He then questioned the validity of our marriage, and suggested in future that we carry a copy of our wedding cert with us. I guess because she kept her name.
4. Lastly he didn't know that we can't (As she is Canadian, I'll have to apply as well just to make sure she gets) for settled status until after 31st March, my wife doesn't have a biometric residence card. She's now shitting it that her two passports will get lost along the way.

Fucking bummed me out at 11 pm.

Though annoying we've decided to carry our marriage cert and a copy of our tenancy agreement to head off any accusations.


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## CRI (Feb 25, 2019)

flypanam said:


> My wife and I travelled back from Bari on Saturday night, got a grilling at the border force post;
> 1. The border guard had a go at me for travelling on my Irish passport card and not my paged passport. Passport card has been in operation for 4 years and I've never had  problem before.
> 2. My wife got grilled over having two passports. One with her EU family visa water ink stamp and the other her valid Canadian passport. I had to explain she didn't get a bio metric card when she applied because she was told by the home office she wouldn't need it.
> 3. He then questioned the validity of our marriage, and suggested in future that we carry a copy of our wedding cert with us. I guess because she kept her name.
> ...


I can't like this post, but expect there will be a fuckton more people experiencing the same shit from here on out.


----------



## Gramsci (Feb 27, 2019)

An East European friend of mine has gone through the whole process of getting British citizenship. The whole tedious process of passing the citizenship test. They showed me the book they had to pass the test.  Its laughable view of this country. Me and my friend laughed over its portraying UK as a tolerant place.

Due to Brexit they decided to do it. They had put down roots here and the worry of Brexit made them think this as the best option. Which I can understand.

Now as they say they are citizens of two racist countries. There own East European one and the UK.

Brexit make me feel ashamed of my country now.


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## collectordave (Feb 27, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> An East European friend of mine has gone through the whole process of getting British citizenship. The whole tedious process of passing the citizenship test. They showed me the book they had to pass the test. Its laughable view of this country. Me and my friend laughed over its portraying UK as a tolerant place.
> 
> Due to Brexit they decided to do it. They had put down roots here and the worry of Brexit made them think this as the best option. Which I can understand.
> 
> ...



My sympathies to your friend. Similar thoughts are going through the minds of some British expats in Portugal. It did suprise the British Consul at a recent reassurance meeting that two expressed their thoughts of applying for Portuguese citizenship. A little better here as the Portuguese government is looking to pass a law to protect the rights of British expats in Portugal even if Britain doesn't.

In the UK I think it is the best option as after Brexit the government will, I feel, introduce a draconian immigration policy in an attempt to cover up their incompetence over the last 43 years and as one final fling to blame the EU for the state Bitain is in.


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## Gramsci (Feb 27, 2019)

collectordave said:


> My sympathies to your friend. Similar thoughts are going through the minds of some British expats in Portugal. It did suprise the British Consul at a recent reassurance meeting that two expressed their thoughts of applying for Portuguese citizenship. A little better here as the Portuguese government is looking to pass a law to protect the rights of British expats in Portugal even if Britain doesn't.
> 
> In the UK I think it is the best option as after Brexit the government will, I feel, introduce a draconian immigration policy in an attempt to cover up their incompetence over the last 43 years and as one final fling to blame the EU for the state Bitain is in.



Its good to hear that that the Portuguese government is that generous. 

There are a lot of Portuguese in my local area. Stockwell is "little Portugal". 

Some of them have been here for years.


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## Gramsci (Feb 27, 2019)

Its things like this that make me sure I was right to oppose Brexit. 

Tory MP of Italian descent has tried to get amendment to ensure rights of people from other EU countries if no deal Brexit happens. Reasonable position supported by MPs across parties. Cue Tory Government chaos. Javid supporting it, "hostile environment" May not, Government climbdown.

Government relents on rights of EU citizens after MP quits

And the Tory MP who proposed amendment losing his job.

Plus good points here from Labour MP. Why isn't leadership saying this?



> ]The Labour MP Stephen Doughty described the “settled status” scheme as a shambles and told Javid the basis of registration was discriminatory as it required EU citizens to request rights they already had.
> 
> It would also recategorise them in a no-deal scenario as a cohort of the population who did not have rights if they did not have a settled status.
> 
> “‘If people are having to secure those rights then, by definition, they don’t have those rights,” Doughty said. “You are at risk of having Windrush all over again.



This whole Brexit is shit.


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## The39thStep (Feb 27, 2019)

collectordave said:


> Expat in Portugal.
> 
> Portugal already run a scheme where all EU citizens need to register to become resident. When entering the country you have "tourist rights" which means you can stay as long as you like but can be deported for any trivial reason. Health care etc. is dependent upon the EHIC for EU members and health insurance for non EU members. The next stage is to register as resident the first time is for five years you need to show proof such as home ownership bank account etc. During this five years you are not eligible to claim social security benefits however you can then register with a doctor as your family doctor and you are not deported for trivial reasons. After the five years you can apply for permanent residency using the initial registration document as proof, a few more rights are granted at this stage.
> 
> ...


I've got the initial five year residency all I had to show was passport and give an address and my finance number took 10 minutes at the Town Hall. The next five year one is issued at the SEF office. I'm in central Algarve where abouts are you in Portugal?


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## collectordave (Feb 28, 2019)

I am right in the centre of Portugal just a couple of miles from the geodesic centre.

Really beautiful country.


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## collectordave (Feb 28, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> Tory MP of Italian descent has tried to get amendment to ensure rights of people from other EU countries if no deal Brexit happens. Reasonable position supported by MPs across parties. Cue Tory Government chaos. Javid supporting it, "hostile environment" May not, Government climbdown.



Reading that article made me feel quite queasy. Only now are they thinking about British citizens rights? The article appears to be biased against Europe such words as "While Lidington said the government took the rights of EU citizens including British nationals settled in the bloc “extremely seriously”, he warned that MPs should not “underestimate the challenge” in persuading the EU"

There is no challenge in persuading the EU, as I have mentioned Portugal, fed up waiting for Britain, is allready taking action. The EU raised the issue of rights two years ago. The challenge appears to be the British Government. I can see why some people seem confused about Brexit with a government that doesn't govern and a biased 'Free' press'.


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## Gramsci (Feb 28, 2019)

collectordave said:


> Reading that article made me feel quite queasy. Only now are they thinking about British citizens rights? The article appears to be biased against Europe such words as "While Lidington said the government took the rights of EU citizens including British nationals settled in the bloc “extremely seriously”, he warned that MPs should not “underestimate the challenge” in persuading the EU"
> 
> There is no challenge in persuading the EU, as I have mentioned Portugal, fed up waiting for Britain, is allready taking action. The EU raised the issue of rights two years ago. The challenge appears to be the British Government. I can see why some people seem confused about Brexit with a government that doesn't govern and a biased 'Free' press'.



You made interesting point that Portugal is going to gaurentee UK citizens right whatever happens. 

This does not fit the narrative of Brexit supporters here. Of the Tory right or hard left. 

In that narrative its the EU that is giving UK a hard time. EU is racist so anyone who supports staying in is tinged with that. 

The Tory MP who put into the amendment is of Italian descent and had been lobbying "hostile environment" May about this from last two years according to the article. 

Of course one of the reasons for Brexit was to "get our borders back" and extend the "hostile environment". to all. Which May is pursuing. I would have thought that was obvious from the start. May , in her mind , is only doing what she reckoned people voted for. 

The argument being that it was unfair that EU people had rights others didn't.


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## DexterTCN (Feb 28, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> You made interesting point that Portugal is going to gaurentee UK citizens right whatever happens.
> 
> This does not fit the narrative of Brexit supporters here. Of the Tory right or hard left.
> 
> ...


That tory mp...Costa...we know him in Scotland.  He's proper tory, toes the line.   Even we were 'wtf!' when he got canned for the amendment (lost his pps job).   These cunts running this don't give a shit about _anyone even in their own party_.


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## collectordave (Mar 1, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> You made interesting point that Portugal is going to gaurentee UK citizens right whatever happens.
> 
> This does not fit the narrative of Brexit supporters here. Of the Tory right or hard left.
> 
> ...



There are many things which do not fit the Brexit narrative. Each morning I take a trip to my local cafe for the first cup of coffee and I watch the News as reported on Portuguese TV.

During the evening I watch British news on British TV, the two do not allways agree. The British news it seems, in my opinion, to be biased against the EU.

The argument that EU citizens have rights others do not have simply points to the incompetence of the British government.

The right of free movement within the EU was agreed by Britain, at no point has the EU put forward that EU citizens are allowed to claim benefits etc in the country in which they are settled. This has allways been the responsibility of the sovereign countries government.

Portugal is a fine example, EU citizens have the right to reside here but cannot claim benefits at all for the first five years and even then very little.

This is Portuguese law, the British government has had the sovereign right to do the same thing only the British government did not bother, till now.

There also appears to be confusion in Britain about refugees, immigrants and EU citizens.  I can remember news articles showing a family from Iran settled in a nice mansion in London paid for by the tax payer with inferences that this was due to EU policy, utter rubbish.

One ardent Brexit voter I know stated that his reason for voting to leave the EU was to stop all these foreigners takeing our jobs. My first point of course was that they did not "take" the job but were given the job by their employer. After finding that the workers he was talking about were from Jamaica and Namibia I pointed out that these were  not EU citizens.

The discussion went no further as he decided that talking to a 'trouble maker' was too much bother huff huff.

As for the EU being racist, the EU itself is a collection of nations of different races working together. There are racist tensions in each country the same as in Britain but these are not caused by the EU.

I also do not believe for a second that May believes it is the will of the people, the majority did not vote in the referendum, the best that could be said then is that the British people said get on with governing Britain.


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## mojo pixy (Mar 1, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> An East European friend of mine has gone through the whole process of getting British citizenship. The whole tedious process of passing the citizenship test. They showed me the book they had to pass the test.  Its laughable view of this country.



Got to swear an oath of allegiance to the queen, too, to get the actual citizenship. Most British people never have to do that, you're born a subject of the crown so it's a given. Why anyone would want to come here in the first place as more than a tourist is beyond me. Especially when the process ends with swearing an oath of allegiance to a monarch ffs.


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## yield (Mar 1, 2019)

collectordave said:


> As for the EU being racist, the EU itself is a collection of nations of different races working together. There are racist tensions in each country the same as in Britain but these are not caused by the EU.


"EU itself is a collection of nations of different races" Racism produces the idea of race not the other way around.

As SpackleFrog posted on another thread


SpackleFrog said:


> At the risk of getting back on topic this is a pretty damning indictment of the EU and its institutional racism.
> 
> African Union seeks to kill EU plan to process migrants in Africa


----------



## bemused (Mar 1, 2019)

yield said:


> "EU itself is a collection of nations of different races" Racism produces the idea of race not the other way around.
> 
> As SpackleFrog posted on another thread



Didn't the EU spend last week in Egypt paying off regimes to stop refugees entering Europe?


----------



## zahir (Mar 1, 2019)

zahir said:


> There’s also a legal challenge from JCWI on the right to rent. I think this was being heard in December so it may now be waiting on a decision (I’ve no idea how long these kinds of hearings take).
> 
> Right To Rent Is A Policy That Leads To Discrimination



Some good news - the JCWI has won the case, though the Home Office has leave to appeal. I assume the policy will still be in force until this has worked its way through the courts.

Right to Rent scheme ruled incompatible with human rights law


> In a robust judgement, Mr Justice Spencer said the much-criticised policy was unlawful because it caused landlords to discriminate against British citizens from minority ethnic backgrounds and against foreign nationals who have a legal right to rent.
> 
> He found that requiring landlords to check immigration status caused racial discrimination against anyone without a British passport and against ethnic minorities. The judge also said the government had failed to show that the checks had any effect on encouraging undocumented migrants to leave the country.
> 
> ...




ETA: More detail, and a link to the judgement, in this report.

https://www.freemovement.org.uk/jcwi-right-to-rent-high-court/


Thread:


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## CRI (Mar 1, 2019)

mojo pixy said:


> Got to swear an oath of allegiance to the queen, too, to get the actual citizenship. Most British people never have to do that, you're born a subject of the crown so it's a given. Why anyone would want to come here in the first place as more than a tourist is beyond me. Especially when the process ends with swearing an oath of allegiance to a monarch ffs.


I was lucky to do it before they made a big deal.  Just went to a local solicitor, he read out the statement and said, "Do you affirm?" and I said yes, he signed and that was it.  It was sort of a "pinky swear" if you know what I mean.


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## Gramsci (Mar 1, 2019)

yield said:


> "EU itself is a collection of nations of different races" Racism produces the idea of race not the other way around.
> 
> As SpackleFrog posted on another thread



I think what collectordave is correct in relation to this country at least.

Racial tensions in this country have nothing to do with being in the EU.

This country has long history of racism.

As one of my Brixton friends pointed out during the run up to referendum the way people were going on about East Europeans is the same as the way people went on about his father's generation who came here from Carribbean back in 60s/ 70s.

Back then Commonwealth was in practise an area of free movement.

Like now with EU people it was curtailed due to resentment against immigration.

Institutional racism has been going on in this country for years. Nothing to do with EU.

Main reason I was Remainer was because I felt that anti immigration sentiment in this country would be given more credence with Brexit. Also taking away rights of one group to live here would not improve the overall situation for migrants to come here. Which clearly it hasn't. Its going to be hostile environment for all now with Brexit. If it happens.


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## Gramsci (Mar 1, 2019)

mojo pixy said:


> Got to swear an oath of allegiance to the queen, too, to get the actual citizenship. Most British people never have to do that, you're born a subject of the crown so it's a given. Why anyone would want to come here in the first place as more than a tourist is beyond me. Especially when the process ends with swearing an oath of allegiance to a monarch ffs.



And my East European friend says you do this in room with big picture of Her Majesty in the room.I could not believe it. But yes that is want happens.

Reminded of my younger days when I saw Till Death to Us Part. Alf Garnett was made fun of for having Her Majesty above his mantelpiece. Back then it was treated as a joke. Not now.


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## zahir (Mar 7, 2019)

zahir said:


> Some good news - the JCWI has won the case, though the Home Office has leave to appeal. I assume the policy will still be in force until this has worked its way through the courts.
> 
> Right to Rent scheme ruled incompatible with human rights law




Confirmation that right to rent remains in force despite ruling that it is illegal.


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## collectordave (Mar 8, 2019)

This right to rent is interesting.

Are the government telling us that illegal immigrants can only rent council houses?

Seems like private landlords are being co-opted into doing the border guards job for free.

How does a landlord check the status of anyone wishing to rent?


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## Poi E (Mar 8, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> And my East European friend says you do this in room with big picture of Her Majesty in the room.I could not believe it. But yes that is want happens.
> 
> Reminded of my younger days when I saw Till Death to Us Part. Alf Garnett was made fun of for having Her Majesty above his mantelpiece. Back then it was treated as a joke. Not now.



Yes, that's what you do. The people I was surrounded with were pretty bloody happy. For me, already being a dutiful subject of HM by virtue of being a New Zealander, it was all rather unnecessary. 



collectordave said:


> This right to rent is interesting.
> 
> Are the government telling us that illegal immigrants can only rent council houses?
> 
> ...



Passport?


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## zahir (Mar 8, 2019)

collectordave said:


> This right to rent is interesting.
> 
> Are the government telling us that illegal immigrants can only rent council houses?



If you’re ‘illegal’ the idea is that you can’t rent anything, or at least landlords face a hefty fine if they rent to you. This also goes for sheltering someone ‘illegal’ even if they’re not on the tenancy agreement - landlords are expected to evict everyone in this situation.


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## zahir (Mar 8, 2019)

Poi E said:


> Passport?



Right to Rent and the ‘Windrush generation’


> The Right to Rent scheme does not require tenants to provide a UK passport, a biometric residence permit or a naturalisation certificate; other documents such as driving licences are acceptable in combination to prove someone has an unlimited Right to Rent. However, even if someone produces these documents, unless the landlord has a good understanding of how Right to Rent works, they may not realise that the documents provided are sufficient. It is inevitable that many BME people looking for a home in the private rented sector will be subject to discrimination when looking to rent property. As a society we may have moved on from ‘No black, no dogs, no Irish’, but the evidence collected by the JWCI and the RLA suggested that Right to Rent has introduced new forms of discrimination.



The settled status scheme for EU citizens will mean that landlords are expected to check their status online with the Home Office database before renting to them.


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## mojo pixy (Mar 8, 2019)

collectordave said:


> This right to rent is interesting.
> 
> Are the government telling us that illegal immigrants can only rent council houses?
> 
> ...



They charge the prospective tenant a whacking great fee, and have the check done by an agency who specialise in checking immigration status, references and income etc. (example)


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## ska invita (Mar 15, 2019)

I wonder if an extension also adds on to the registration/become illegal deadline (currently March 2021)


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## collectordave (Mar 16, 2019)

ska invita said:


> I wonder if an extension also adds on to the registration/become illegal deadline (currently March 2021)



I take it you mean registering as a resident.

In Portugal.

I understood the dead line for registration was the end of the transition period which comes into effect after an orderly brexit i.e. with a deal and lasts at the moment up until xmas 2020.

The extension IF granted by the EU means Britain stays in the EU until the end of the extension. This may affect the transition period but depends on Britain agreeing their deal allready approved by the EU.

Crash out and all bets are off. One warning to anyone travelling after March 29 (or end of extension) is check driving licence validity etc. it maybe that car insurance needs to be checked as well if travelling by car. 

Registration here is very simple pop in to the local town or county council (not parish council but remember to register your dogs if you have any at the parish)  you need to show some bits such as bank account, property ownership etc but took less than ten minutes for wife and me to register.

Safest to do it before 29th March.


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## ska invita (Mar 16, 2019)

Well according to the official website for settled status
"The EU Settlement Scheme will open fully by *30 March 2019*. You may be able to apply now if you meet the criteria. The deadline for applying will be *30 June 2021*."
...which looks like theyve added three months on, as I'd swear the deadline was 30 March 2021 when the thread began


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## Gramsci (Mar 26, 2019)

Warning of legal limbo for 3m EU citizens living in UK after Brexit

The Joint Committeee on Human Rights warns that government promises of the rights for EU nationals are not firm enough.

Government promises that everything will be ok in long term aren't good enough. ( As posters here have thought).

Rights should be enshrined in primary legislation not the use of statutory instruments.

Significantly the committee says that rights for EU nationals post Brexit should not depend on signing up to the Government settled status scheme.They should be put into primary legislation.

Committee has seen what has happened to Windrush generation. So government promises using statutory instruments aren't good enough. 

Nor is the settled status scheme.

Basically the committee agrees with all the concerns raised on this thread.


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## Winot (Mar 26, 2019)

Parliamentary committees are (on the whole) better by far than the HoC generally. The more power and independence they have the better. It also gives me some hope that MPs can be relatively decent, away from the constraints of the whip.


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## DexterTCN (Mar 30, 2019)




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## ska invita (Mar 30, 2019)

DexterTCN said:


>



Yes, I know someone in exactly that situation, mother originally French, living in the UK for years, three kids, two have citizenship and one, despite being born in the UK and living here his whole life, doesn't. Thankfully she is aware of the issue and stressfully trying to sort it out for him, but finding it difficult from what I hear. Still, at least theres a bus driving round for 4 days, that should solve the thousands of cases


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## flypanam (Mar 30, 2019)

Right, applying for settled status part two. As my wife is from outside the eu, we’ve had to wait till today to apply. Got through the first bit, easy enough...d.o.b, passport number, phone number, email address. Sent link to second part. Form asks have you permanent residence? Answer, No. then have you indefinite leave to remain? Answer, No. then get message error in application. Phone up Home Office, their answer is try later on in the week or next week as system can’t cope.


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## DexterTCN (Mar 30, 2019)




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## DexterTCN (Mar 30, 2019)




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## CRI (Mar 31, 2019)

There was a discussion upthread about people born in Northern Ireland, who under the GFA have the right to Irish, British or both citizenships.  Looks like the UK Government has decided that's no longer the case - you are automatically British, whether you want to be or not (even if your parents are Irish citizens and you happened to be born in the North.)  They've done this pretty quietly, and also decreed that British Citizens can no longer be considered citizens of the European Economic Area, even though Brexit hasn't actually happened yet.  All this is really, really shitty.


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## flypanam (Apr 5, 2019)

Applying for settled status part 3. So my wife made the application last night, fairly stratight forward, got past the stage mentioned above and got to apply as an EU family member, supplied all the documentation (except my last five years of pay slips because I don't have them, d'oh). The immediate answer was that she wasn't here for 5 years, which is true in the sense that her 5 year family permit runs out on 1st May. so 4 years and 11 months. So far so good, we were expecting this.

What we didn't expect is that she has to present herself to the immigration authorities today to get her biometrics taken, we had been told by a home office official that she would just have to turn up at a post office and get the relevant finger prints, photo taken which would cost £19.20. Instead it's costing us £100. We we're also told that she wouldn't have to take along all the documentation we've scanned to the Immigration center by said official and the .Gov.uk website. Yet this morning when we inquired, a phone call that cost £2.50 a minute, that she will have to take all the documentation with her.

Now if fully expect that we will have to do this process all over again on the 1st of May. Although I think we will appeal. The main thing for my wife is that she does not under any circumstances want to send her documentation through the post to the HO.

The irritating thing is not only the cost but the lack of clarity coming from the HO, the gov.uk website, and other partners regarding the whole process. It seems willfully obsure and difficult to navigate and we're native English speakers.


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## flypanam (Apr 5, 2019)

CRI said:


> There was a discussion upthread about people born in Northern Ireland, who under the GFA have the right to Irish, British or both citizenships.  Looks like the UK Government has decided that's no longer the case - you are automatically British, whether you want to be or not (even if your parents are Irish citizens and you happened to be born in the North.)  They've done this pretty quietly, and also decreed that British Citizens can no longer be considered citizens of the European Economic Area, even though Brexit hasn't actually happened yet.  All this is really, really shitty.



 I haven't noticed that. I was born in England, my dad was a bricky and we travelled back and forth over a number of years between Ireland and England. As I was born in the seventies I am technically a british subject but when we made the application for my wife we were told that because I'd never had a british passport, and that for most of my life I'd lived and worked in Ireland I wouldn't be considred British. This might through a spanner in the settled status application my wife has made...Shit.


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## ska invita (Apr 5, 2019)

flypanam said:


> Applying for settled status part 3. So my wife made the application last night, fairly stratight forward, got past the stage mentioned above and got to apply as an EU family member, supplied all the documentation (except my last five years of pay slips because I don't have them, d'oh). The immediate answer was that she wasn't here for 5 years, which is true in the sense that her 5 year family permit runs out on 1st May. so 4 years and 11 months. So far so good, we were expecting this.
> 
> What we didn't expect is that she has to present herself to the immigration authorities today to get her biometrics taken, we had been told by a home office official that she would just have to turn up at a post office and get the relevant finger prints, photo taken which would cost £19.20. Instead it's costing us £100. We we're also told that she wouldn't have to take along all the documentation we've scanned to the Immigration center by said official and the .Gov.uk website. Yet this morning when we inquired, a phone call that cost £2.50 a minute, that she will have to take all the documentation with her.
> 
> ...



Sounds like a nightmare....sorry to hear it. My own experience (15 years back) went along the lines that whilst in the longwinded process of sorting out leave to remain for my partner out of the blue dropped a letter saying You Have Overstayed Leave Now (well there was a date given to leave by:a fortnight). Being in the middle of the process we werent sure whether to ignore it, or how to react. We paid for legal advice and the advice was to leave for six months and then come back to finish the application - if you overstay by even a day that rule breaking would override everything else.

It was difficult and expensive, but she did leave for six months and on return eventually completed the process. This account doesnt include the phone calls, visits to Croydon, brick wall response from the HO, and above all deep stress, particularly so when forced to leave. One thing is certain, our relationship would have ended if it had started a few years later as the new rules would have stopped it through even more hostile bureaucracy and hoop jumping - as it is we only just squeezed through.

Theres such a variety of personal circumstances and situations that people find themselves in, and so many hurdles set up to trip people up, the presentation of settled status application that you just press a couple of buttons on an app and its done is pure bullshit. There may be some people for whom that works, but the room for failure is massive - and thats for those able to deal with the process in the first place.


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## DexterTCN (Apr 5, 2019)

Is there a right to appeal?


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## flypanam (Apr 5, 2019)

DexterTCN said:


> Is there a right to appeal?


is that to me?

If so, I believe there is but it involves sending off documents. We probably would appeal but who knows. My wife is pretty exhausted by the whole process. It's not easy, the advice changes depending on who you talk too. And if the UK Gov doesn't recognise I'm an Irish citizen and won't give her settled status because I was born in London in the seventies, despite giving her EEA family permit in 2014,  then we will probably up sticks and leave.


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## redsquirrel (Apr 5, 2019)

flypanam said:


> ....


Best of luck fly


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## DexterTCN (Apr 5, 2019)

flypanam said:


> is that to me?...


Sorry.  My mind's all over the place just now.  Some people on social media are saying they don't think there is an appeal route.

Hope it all works out.


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## Pickman's model (Apr 5, 2019)

flypanam said:


> is that to me?
> 
> If so, I believe there is but it involves sending off documents. We probably would appeal but who knows. My wife is pretty exhausted by the whole process. It's not easy, the advice changes depending on who you talk too. And if the UK Gov doesn't recognise I'm an Irish citizen and won't give her settled status because I was born in London in the seventies, despite giving her EEA family permit in 2014,  then we will probably up sticks and leave.


we have the worst government in living memory, which is both brutal and particularly stupid.

i hope you get it sorted out, flypanam


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## danny la rouge (Apr 5, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> Best of luck fly


Indeed. Sounds a nightmare. Good luck flypanam .


----------



## flypanam (Apr 5, 2019)

Cheers. It’s frustrating, especially for my wife, but if it’s refused we leave. Not the end of the world. Not as if we have kids or own anything of worth. Far worse for a lot of others.


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## Gramsci (Apr 5, 2019)

Just a reminder of what was promised.


flypanam said:


> Applying for settled status part 3. So my wife made the application last night, fairly stratight forward, got past the stage mentioned above and got to apply as an EU family member, supplied all the documentation (except my last five years of pay slips because I don't have them, d'oh). The immediate answer was that she wasn't here for 5 years, which is true in the sense that her 5 year family permit runs out on 1st May. so 4 years and 11 months. So far so good, we were expecting this.
> 
> What we didn't expect is that she has to present herself to the immigration authorities today to get her biometrics taken, we had been told by a home office official that she would just have to turn up at a post office and get the relevant finger prints, photo taken which would cost £19.20. Instead it's costing us £100. We we're also told that she wouldn't have to take along all the documentation we've scanned to the Immigration center by said official and the .Gov.uk website. Yet this morning when we inquired, a phone call that cost £2.50 a minute, that she will have to take all the documentation with her.
> 
> ...



This was why I was against Brexit.

It was being pushed by UKIP/ right of Tory party from the outset.

I thought that If the referendum was for Brexit people like you would get a hard time.

I think the EU has loads of faults but in the context of this country it was not in the Euro. Unlike the PIGS.

Brexit was being pushed by anti immigrant sentiment. Why I and a lot of my friends in Lambeth were opposed to it.

I've been proved right.


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 5, 2019)

CRI said:


> There was a discussion upthread about people born in Northern Ireland, who under the GFA have the right to Irish, British or both citizenships.  Looks like the UK Government has decided that's no longer the case - you are automatically British, whether you want to be or not (even if your parents are Irish citizens and you happened to be born in the North.)  They've done this pretty quietly, and also decreed that British Citizens can no longer be considered citizens of the European Economic Area, even though Brexit hasn't actually happened yet.  All this is really, really shitty.




I wonder how this affects British people on the "mainland" with Irish Republic background. 

Several of my friends are applying for Irish citizenship. Hoping as British citizens this will cover them as also staying in the EU. Whilst the likes of me, 100% British  are stuffed. 

They are people who can trace their Irish ancestory to grandparents.


----------



## CRI (Apr 6, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> I wonder how this affects British people on the "mainland" with Irish Republic background.
> 
> Several of my friends are applying for Irish citizenship. Hoping as British citizens this will cover them as also staying in the EU. Whilst the likes of me, 100% British  are stuffed.
> 
> They are people who can trace their Irish ancestory to grandparents.



I'm not entirely sure.  It may be an issue specific to people born in Northern Ireland, who can claim Irish, British or both forms of citizenship, (elsewhere in the UK, there is no birthright citizenship.)  In Emma DeSousa's case, she chose to be Irish only, and when she married an American citizen, expected that he would be able to live with her in Belfast, following the same rules for Irish people who marry Americans and live in Dublin, say.	But, the UK Home Office declared that she was British, so her husband was subject to stricter UK rules for being allowed to join a British spouse in the UK - and was disallowed.  

On that basis, it seems likely that if you've retained British citizenship, even as you've taken on Irish citizenship, the Home Office rules would apply.  

To be honest, I think they are making it up as they go along.


----------



## collectordave (Apr 6, 2019)

CRI said:


> But, the UK Home Office declared that she was British



A bit more clarity required? NI is not a member of great Britain only of the UK this can  be seen on any "British" passport. The UK of great britain and NI.

So is it not more correct to say she is UKish not british?



CRI said:


> so her husband was subject to stricter UK rules for being allowed to join a British spouse in the UK - and was disallowed.



Is this the UK controlling its borders? Are the rules different for a citizen of an ex colony?



CRI said:


> To be honest, I think they are making it up as they go along.



Couldn't agree more.


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 6, 2019)

collectordave said:


> A bit more clarity required? NI is not a member of great Britain only of the UK this can  be seen on any "British" passport. The UK of great britain and NI.
> 
> So is it not more correct to say she is UKish not british?
> 
> ...



One of the arguments about leaving EU was that we would get to control our borders. Out of EU we could set our own immigration policy without the EU interfering.

In fact EU allowed UK to set its own requirements re UK subjects and marriage partners from outside EU. The EU version being more liberal.

Why the lady from NI/ Ulster has been caught up in this.

Northern Ireland is a problem for Brexit.

The Good Friday Agreement was a peace settlement between two warring parties. The UK and IRA.

It was a stalemate. Section of Northern Ireland community feeling Irish not part of UK.

Thus people in NI can take Irish citizenship.

The argument about this means the UK state regards these people as UK citizens who just happen to have Irish passport.

Whereas the case you mention was from a women who reckons her Irish citizenship comes first.

I can understand why the DUP say the Union comes before a reasonable Brexit. For them defending Ulster as part of the Union is the biggest issue. From there point of view its logical argument. 

IMO the Good Friday Agreement worked ok as long as UK was in the EU.

Not now.


----------



## DexterTCN (Apr 6, 2019)




----------



## Gramsci (Apr 6, 2019)

DexterTCN said:


>




Id say this is example of system working as intended. 

Like Windrush this is not unfortunate accident. 

Its intentional. Its all part of what Brexit was about from the beginning.


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 6, 2019)

And its making me more angry and resentful as Brexit bullshit continues.


----------



## DexterTCN (Apr 6, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> Id say this is example of system working as intended.
> 
> Like Windrush this is not unfortunate accident.
> 
> Its intentional. Its all part of what Brexit was about from the beginning.


Absolutely.

There's no denying _what it is_.


----------



## collectordave (Apr 7, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> One of the arguments about leaving EU was that we would get to control our borders. Out of EU we could set our own immigration policy without the EU interfering.



This argument does seem to be a cornerstone of brexit.

The EU does allow all sovereign states to set their own immigration policy with just a few guidelines such as not setting a minimum income requirement far above the rate at which it's citizens can claim help from the countries social security system. However restricting access to social security etc has never been a problem for the EU. Many countries in the EU allready do this. Of course this only applies to EU citizens not citizens of countries outside the EU which have allways been the responsibility of each sovereign state.

So Britain has allways had the ability to control its borders.

As an example in the country I now reside this ladies husband, as an american would be subject to criminal record checks and means tests to ensure he will not be a burden on society before residency is granted. Marriage is not a guarantee of acceptance but it does help immensly when applying for citizenship (not residence) as each case is considered individually.

The current rush by the government to implement changes to the british immigration policy then seems to be a simple piece of guile by the government to cover up its own incompetence by blaming the EU.


----------



## collectordave (Apr 7, 2019)

https://assets.publishing.service.g.../20160523_Leaflet_EASY_READ_FINAL_VERSION.pdf

Check this out, the british government knew it had control of its borders before the referendum duh?


----------



## CRI (Apr 8, 2019)

collectordave said:


> A bit more clarity required? NI is not a member of great Britain only of the UK this can  be seen on any "British" passport. The UK of great britain and NI.
> 
> So is it not more correct to say she is UKish not british?
> 
> ...



As far as I'm aware, there is no such word as "UKish."  The term "British" (with a capital B) refers to citizens of the "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland," even if it isn't "geographically accurate." 

And if you read my post, you'd see that under the Good Friday / Belfast Agreement, which is an international treaty, people born in the 6 counties of Northern Ireland can choose to have Irish citizenship, British citizenship or both at the same time.  Emma DeSousa chose to be Irish only, but the UK Government insisted that she was British first and foremost, and any rights related to her Irish nationality were superseded by that. 

The situation was nothing to do with the UK "controlling its borders," and has nothing to do with Ireland being an "ex-colony."  When the UK signed the treaty, they agreed that people in the North could choose to be Irish and choose not to be British.  This was a really important step to getting the agreement signed and bringing an end to decades of violence.  As Gramsci mentioned, this also made no difference to their rights because people of both nationalities shared the same rights under Freedom of Movement.

In order to make their racist, xenophobic fever dream of Brexit come true, both the Government and Opposition leadership have shat on this international treaty, stripping away rights that it guaranteed to people in Northern Ireland, as well as trying to force the Republic of Ireland into enforcing a "hard border" (and strangely unbothered by the prospect of migrants "slipping over" into UK territory if they don't).



collectordave said:


> This argument does seem to be a cornerstone of brexit.
> 
> The EU does allow all sovereign states to set their own immigration policy with just a few guidelines such as not setting a minimum income requirement far above the rate at which it's citizens can claim help from the countries social security system. However restricting access to social security etc has never been a problem for the EU. Many countries in the EU allready do this. Of course this only applies to EU citizens not citizens of countries outside the EU which have allways been the responsibility of each sovereign state.
> 
> ...



I think I cross posted there - yes, for decades the UK Government - mostly when led by Tories - has lied about the EU being to blame for all manner of policies that were actually within their gift to change, but it suited them not to.


----------



## CRI (Apr 11, 2019)

Christ on a buttered biscuit - but you could see this coming from miles away.  

Home Office admits sharing details of hundreds of EU citizens



> The Home Office has apologised for committing its second potential data breach of UK residents in a week after accidentally sharing the details of hundreds of EU nationals seeking settled status.
> The department has informed 240 applicants it “inadvertently” shared their email addresses with others who had applied under the scheme, in its attempt to establish the reasons behind “technical difficulties” they had been experiencing.





> In an email to the EU nationals affected by the latest error, the department said: “We take this opportunity to apologise for any inconvenience caused by this incident. We value your patience and understanding at this time. We would like to reassure you that we are taking this matter very seriously.”
> The admission comes just days after the Home Office apologised to members of the Windrush generation again after admitting it wrongly shared 500 private email addresses while launching the compensation scheme.


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Apr 11, 2019)

collectordave said:


> https://assets.publishing.service.g.../20160523_Leaflet_EASY_READ_FINAL_VERSION.pdf
> 
> Check this out, the british government knew it had control of its borders before the referendum duh?


Yes, that’s not why they called the ref.


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Apr 11, 2019)

In fact measures the British government could take(and things they promised in event of a remain vote) to restrict FOM were discussed on here prior to the ref.


----------



## CRI (Apr 12, 2019)

HoratioCuthbert said:


> In fact measures the British government could take(and things they promised in event of a remain vote) to restrict FOM were discussed on here prior to the ref.


Even if members of this small online forum were aware that restrictions on FOM were well within the gift of the Government, I'm pretty sure most of the general public were less clear.

I would suggest the UK Government have not been candid about this - in some cases outright lying and blaming the EU and individual EU nations for failures of the Government and UK Home Office.  Certainly the media has spread lies about the EU during the 35 odd years I've lived in the UK.  I can't recall any specific examples of the media challenging representatives of the Government about their responsibility for determining controls on Freedom of Movement, or indeed about other myths about EU regulations.  I'm pretty sure all the lies and scapegoating have contributed to negative views of the EU and its institutions, as well as ramping up of hostility toward people from those countries living in or visiting the UK.  

It created the perfect storm for the turkeys to vote for Christmas, and even as they were figuratively having Brexit brand stuffing shoved up their arses many were still - are still screaming how unfair it is they've not been put in the ovens yet.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 12, 2019)

CRI said:


> Even if members of this small online forum were aware that restrictions on FOM were well within the gift of the Government, I'm pretty sure most of the general public were less clear.
> 
> I would suggest the UK Government have not been candid about this - in some cases outright lying and blaming the EU and individual EU nations for failures of the Government and UK Home Office.  Certainly the media has spread lies about the EU during the 35 odd years I've lived in the UK.  I can't recall any specific examples of the media challenging representatives of the Government about their responsibility for determining controls on Freedom of Movement, or indeed about other myths about EU regulations.  I'm pretty sure all the lies and scapegoating have contributed to negative views of the EU and its institutions, as well as ramping up of hostility toward people from those countries living in or visiting the UK.
> 
> It created the perfect storm for the turkeys to vote for Christmas, and even as they were figuratively having Brexit brand stuffing shoved up their arses many were still - are still screaming how unfair it is they've not been put in the ovens yet.


you don't put turkeys in the oven in april


----------



## CRI (Apr 12, 2019)

And on and on it goes . . . 

Brexit extension: The EU just condemned migrants to seven months of 'flexible' uncertainty



> Ultimately, we are where we are because of the decisions Theresa May made. This began when she dragged the rights of EU citizens in the UK into the Brexit negotiations in the first place. She did this before she even became prime minister - it was part of her leadership pitch.
> 
> But as dreadful as that was, it is in the past. The remaining hurdle to certainty now is the EU.
> 
> ...


----------



## collectordave (Apr 13, 2019)

collectordave said:


> https://assets.publishing.service.g.../20160523_Leaflet_EASY_READ_FINAL_VERSION.pdf
> 
> Check this out, the british government knew it had control of its borders before the referendum duh?



it seems some are still confused about freedom of movement and border control.

Brexit extension: The EU just condemned migrants to seven months of 'flexible' uncertainty

The EU allows each country to sort out its own immigration policy. The extension was granted after Britain pleaded for an extension.

The EU has allready agreed with Britain on reciprocal arrangements on the fate of EU citizens in Britain and expats in the EU.

Britain can guarantee the rights of EU citizens in the UK without leaving the EU as some EU countries have allready done for British expats living in their country. In fact the country in which I live has gone a little further and will guarantee expat rights no  matter how britain leaves the EU.

I can understand the political expediancy of not letting the British public know until after brexit so as to have a ready answer acceptable to government. After brexit "The EU would not let us" but before brexit "we were just to lazy and incompetant to bother".

Now as a remainer, I will criticize the EU for granting the extension, just get it over with why give the british government another six months to come up with a plausible excuse to blame the EU when "They wouldn't grant an extension so we had to crash out" is enough for the british government to blame the EU for years yet to cover up their incompetence.

All in all I believe the headline here should read britain condemns all it's citizens remainers, leavers and confused together with all EU citizens working in britain and british expats in the EU to seven more months of prevarication.


----------



## The39thStep (Apr 13, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> you don't put turkeys in the oven in april


I've had a small turkey at Easter a few times


----------



## flypanam (Apr 24, 2019)

Part 5. On the 10th April the settle status people got back to us requesting more information about me, needing my Irish passport (which we had already supplied to them at time of Original application) and five years of p60's, three months of payslips and 5 years including current council tax bills. We've also supplied them with letters from my national school, my secondary school, UCD (my university) and previous employers (UCD and DIT) and payslips my first and last payslips from DIT.

All of the above was acceptable when my wife got her EEA family member permit in 2014.

We haven't heard a thing since. My wife's visa runs out in a week. My wife and I have an overwhelming sense of being fucked. We hoping to hear something by Friday.

eta all the above is fyi as the process is slow, cumbersome and shit.


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 30, 2019)

East European workmate has decided to go back home.

He has worked in Germany previously.

I asked him if he would come back here.

He doubts it if Brexit goes ahead. He also didnt like the anti immigration stuff around Brexit referendum..

This goes for all my EU friends.  They don't think everyone here is anti immigrant. But referendum result made them feel unwelcome here.


----------



## flypanam (May 1, 2019)

We've had to hire a solicitor. Meeting them tomorrow.


----------



## DexterTCN (May 2, 2019)

flypanam said:


> Part 5. On the 10th April the settle status people got back to us requesting more information about me, needing my Irish passport (which we had already supplied to them at time of Original application) and five years of p60's, three months of payslips and 5 years including current council tax bills. We've also supplied them with letters from my national school, my secondary school, UCD (my university) and previous employers (UCD and DIT) and payslips my first and last payslips from DIT.
> 
> All of the above was acceptable when my wife got her EEA family member permit in 2014.
> 
> ...


Yup.  Then the teams dealing with it were all broken up for some reason and put back to their normal jobs, later on the new teams come in and none of the fucking records can be found and they're back at the fucking start.

Many are concerned this was deliberate from on high.


----------



## ska invita (May 2, 2019)

flypanam said:


> We've had to hire a solicitor. Meeting them tomorrow.


My sympathies....I hope you're partner hasn't been advised to leave because of the visa running out


----------



## flypanam (May 2, 2019)

No, some weird shit though. Her employer checked that she had to leave the job but the advice her employer got was she could work until October. We’re confused. The solicitor is looking into it. Getting into a total headfuck and would need to be tripping to make sense of it.


----------



## flypanam (May 16, 2019)

My wife got an email from the HO yesterday to tell her that they have received her documents. We knew they had because we got an email from them on the 10th April asking for more information. I guess re confirming is progress.


----------



## CRI (May 23, 2019)

Not sure if this is the best place to post this, but it looks like hundreds of non-UK national EU Citizens are being turned away from polling stations, despite having polling cards and having contacted their councils to confirm they were eligible.  Some sort of Byzantine two stage process involved where councils didn't have time to send out the second document?

The hashtag #*DeniedMyVote *is trending on Twitter now. 

Here's an example from someone who's, perhaps ironically, an EU and migration law specialist.



And it looks like the Electoral Commission knew this was going to happen, but did zilch.

Many EU citizens will be unable to vote in UK, campaigners warn


----------



## Badgers (May 23, 2019)

Hostile environment


----------



## Pickman's model (May 23, 2019)

*how often do i have to ask people to take screengrabs?*


----------



## spitfire (May 23, 2019)

I went to vote, no problem, Irish.

My girlfriends name was below mine with a redline through it, French. She's been registered to vote at this address for over 10 years. And has always been registered to vote before that as well.


----------



## rubbershoes (May 23, 2019)

Bloody foreigners. What do they know about democracy 

[/nigel]


----------



## spitfire (May 23, 2019)

rubbershoes said:


> Bloody foreigners. What do they know about democracy
> 
> [/nigel]



TBH I think she was going to vote for Nige anyway so we get deported to France...


----------



## DexterTCN (May 23, 2019)

CRI said:


> Not sure if this is the best place to post this, but it looks like hundreds of non-UK national EU Citizens are being turned away from polling stations, despite having polling cards and having contacted their councils to confirm they were eligible.  Some sort of Byzantine two stage process involved where councils didn't have time to send out the second document?
> 
> The hashtag #*DeniedMyVote *is trending on Twitter now.
> 
> ...



Lots of reports of this up here in Scotland too, no-one thinks it's accidental.


----------



## brogdale (May 23, 2019)

spitfire said:


> I went to vote, no problem, Irish.
> 
> My girlfriends name was below mine with a redline through it, French. She's been registered to vote at this address for over 10 years. And has always been registered to vote before that as well.


Lots about that issue here; seems like it's all down to correct submission and processing of a 'UC1' or 'EC6' form.
Registered EU nationals can generally vote in Locals etc. , but the EU ones are more complicated.


----------



## spitfire (May 23, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Lots about that issue here; seems like it's all down to correct submission and processing of a 'UC1' or 'EC6' form.
> Registered EU nationals can generally vote in Locals etc. , but the EU ones are more complicated.



Yes it's to make sure no one gets a vote in 2 countries which is understandable. However it was really badly publicised and there are also lots of reports of people that did jump through the extra hoop still not getting a vote.

I'm a firm believer in cock up before conspiracy but it's a bad look.


----------



## brogdale (May 23, 2019)

spitfire said:


> Yes it's to make sure no one gets a vote in 2 countries which is understandable. However it was really badly publicised and there are also lots of reports of people that did jump through the extra hoop still not getting a vote.
> 
> I'm a firm believer in cock up before conspiracy but it's a bad look.


Somewhat inevitable with such a hollowed-out local state?


----------



## spitfire (May 23, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Somewhat inevitable with such a hollowed-out local state?



Yes. I guess so. Fuck the tories.


----------



## brogdale (May 23, 2019)

spitfire said:


> Yes. I guess so. Fuck the tories.


Yep, fuck the tories...though, tbf, they're doing a pretty good job of fucking themselves at present.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 23, 2019)

Cock up & conspiracy? 


spitfire said:


> Yes it's to make sure no one gets a vote in 2 countries which is understandable. However it was really badly publicised and there are also lots of reports of people that did jump through the extra hoop still not getting a vote.
> 
> I'm a firm believer in cock up before conspiracy but it's a bad look.


----------



## spitfire (May 23, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> Cock up & conspiracy?



A little bit of column A and a little bit of column B?

Mebbe.


----------



## CRI (May 23, 2019)

spitfire said:


> Yes it's to make sure no one gets a vote in 2 countries which is understandable. However it was really badly publicised and there are also lots of reports of people that did jump through the extra hoop still not getting a vote.
> 
> I'm a firm believer in cock up before conspiracy but it's a bad look.


Sorry to hear about that.  Whether it's cock up or conspiracy, it's still voter suppression and disenfranchisement.  If it's more than a handful of people denied their right to vote, the whole election should be invalidated.  But, the government and opportunity are running such a shit show, I don't think they'd even have a fucking clue how to do that.

I'm old enough to remember when if something like this happened in a developing country, there would be much hand wringing, tutting and threats of sanctions from British politicians.  Now it's happening right here and I'm sure it will just be a "meh."

This journo is collecting examples from folks, so maybe drop her a line.


----------



## flypanam (May 23, 2019)

spitfire said:


> A little bit of column A and a little bit of column B?
> 
> Mebbe.


Column B being for Brokenshire?


----------



## spitfire (May 23, 2019)

CRI said:


> Sorry to hear about that.  Whether it's cock up or conspiracy, it's still voter suppression and disenfranchisement.  If it's more than a handful of people denied their right to vote, the whole election should be invalidated.  But, the government and opportunity are running such a shit show, I don't think they'd even have a fucking clue how to do that.
> 
> I'm old enough to remember when if something like this happened in a developing country, there would be much hand wringing, tutting and threats of sanctions from British politicians.  Now it's happening right here and I'm sure it will just be a "meh."
> 
> ...



Thanks, I did send her a tweet. #fightthepower #byanymeansnecessary


----------



## spitfire (May 23, 2019)

Electoral Commission | Electoral Commission statement regarding some EU citizens being unable to vote in the European Parliamentary Elections

"We understand the frustration of some citizens of other EU Member States, resident in the UK, who have been finding they are unable to vote today when they wish to do so.

"All eligible EU citizens have the right to vote in the EU elections in their home Member State. If an EU citizen instead chooses to vote in the EU election in the UK, there is a process for them to complete to essentially transfer their right to vote, from their home Member State to the UK. This is a requirement of EU law, which specifies that this has to be done “sufficiently in advance of polling day”. UK law sets this as 12 working days in advance of the poll.

"This legal process could be made easier for citizens, and the Commission made the case for doing so following the last EU elections in 2014. However, improvements to the process are reliant on changes to electoral law, which can only be taken forward by Government and Parliament.

"The very short notice from the government of the UK’s participation in these elections impacted on the time available for awareness of this process amongst citizens, and for citizens to complete the process. EU citizens’ right to vote in the election in their home Member State remains unaffected by the change in the UK’s participation; in order to do so, they would need to be registered in that country in accordance with that country’s process and timetable."


----------



## Schmetterling (May 23, 2019)

Well, Tower Hamlets managed to send me the form well in advance with an added note that, at the time of sending out the letters, it was not sure yet whether the UK would be taking part in the EU elections. Why couldn’t other councils manage this?


----------



## spitfire (May 23, 2019)

We’re in Tower Hamlets and got nothing.


----------



## Gramsci (May 23, 2019)

Can anyone enlighten me on deadline for settled status?

As the Brexit nightmare grinds on UK has extended the deadline for leaving.

Does this mean the deadline to apply for settled status extended?

Just asking. My partner like other EU nationals from other EU countries are reluctant to go through this humiliating process of having to justify their presence in anti immigrant Brexit Britain unless they really have to. After working and contributing to this country they are a bit pissed off.

They are still holding for Brexit to not happen. As I am.

Anyone know?

To add:

A friend of mine from another EU country has gone for the whole British citizenship thing.

My friend got full UK citizenship. Including ceremony with picture of her majesty.

As my friend said they are now citizen of two racist countries.

I really hate my country sometimes.


----------



## andysays (May 24, 2019)

I'm in Spain this week and my voting card was delivered over the May bank holiday weekend, with the deadline for submitting a request for a postal vote set at the Tuesday and no info about how to actually apply. As a result, I am also unable to vote. 

I suggest it's primarily the last minute nature of the election which has caused/allowed the administrative fuck ups, rather a deliberate desire to prevent EU citizens (or anyone else) from voting.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 24, 2019)

andysays said:


> I'm in Spain this week and my voting card was delivered over the May bank holiday weekend, with the deadline for submitting a request for a postal vote set at the Tuesday and no info about how to actually apply. As a result, I am also unable to vote.
> 
> I suggest it's primarily the last minute nature of the election which has caused/allowed the administrative fuck ups, rather a deliberate desire to prevent EU citizens (or anyone else) from voting.


yeh but tbh it's not like the british state has made any genuine effort to help people vote, not the inconvenient people anyway


----------



## flypanam (May 24, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> Can anyone enlighten me on deadline for settled status?
> 
> As the Brexit nightmare grinds on UK has extended the deadline for leaving.
> 
> ...


There are two dates 30 June 2021 in the event of a deal. If the UK leaves with no deal 30 December 2020. I get why people don't want to apply as it is humiliating and in our experience (still waiting for an answer) it's nothing but worry and doubt. Our solicitor thinks the HO is actually trying to make the process easier and favourable and puts our difficulties down to the fact that my wife is applying as a spouse of an Irish citizen.

Your partner and friends have to weigh up the fact that if they are not in the scheme (indefinite leave to remain (settled status)), when the employment checks which their employer and landlord will have to carry out will have them facing the full weight of the hostile environment.

eta: I'm not in anyway endorsing the scheme.


----------



## andysays (May 24, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh but tbh it's not like the british state has made any genuine effort to help people vote, not the inconvenient people anyway


Who you calling inconvenient?


----------



## Pickman's model (May 24, 2019)

andysays said:


> Who you calling inconvenient?


i'm not calling anyone inconvenient, i'm saying that from the pov of the british state eu citizens in the uk are inconvenient.


----------



## andysays (May 24, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> i'm not calling anyone inconvenient, i'm saying that from the pov of the british state eu citizens in the uk are inconvenient.


----------



## flypanam (May 29, 2019)

My wife finally got settled status this morning.


----------



## redsquirrel (May 29, 2019)

flypanam said:


> My wife finally got settled status this morning.


Great news fly


----------



## ska invita (Aug 9, 2019)

unsurprisingly Johnson is taking a leaf from the Trump playbook, telling outright lies with a straight face and not letting facts get in the way...there are no plans to change the regime

This is the simple bit of legislation that would solve this issue
https://www.freemovement.org.uk/thi...ausing-a-new-windrush-scandal-for-eu-citizens
so easily doable if the political will was there

and then theres this
Surge in EU citizens unfairly refused access to universal credit
which shows where the political will lies

cunts


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 18, 2019)

just seen this.

UK seeks to end freedom of movement for EU citizens on day one of Brexit

Patel thinks ending free movement on day one of No Deal Brexit is great idea.

None of this surprised me. Why I was always against Brexit.

My Spanish partner was at the Spanish Embassy last week. The Spanish government are doing their best to support Spanish Nationals here.

As the article says if Free Movement is ended on day one of Brexit how will they distinguish between new people and those who are living here?

The Spanish government has given my partner status as living in UK as Spanish citizen.

They did it without any fuss. I hope the Spanish and other EU governments stand up for their citizens here. Looks the Spanish government is doing that.

Getting our borders back was big element of Brexit and its not surprising this is happening.

Patel is using EU citizens living here from other countries as bargaining chips.:



> The new plan may be viewed as part of efforts to force the EU into reopening Brexit negotiations, by signalling an uncompromising stance that would also cause huge upheaval across the Channel.


----------



## ska invita (Aug 18, 2019)

Not just as bargaining chips but also more dog whistling to Brexit Party types ahead of an election. I don't believe there is any intention for any of this to happen, but the fact the Tories think it is politically expedient to say it says it all. The worry and stress it adds to people living here without British citizenship doesn't even register for them. Disgusting


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 19, 2019)

Reply to Priti Patel from the 3Million group.

Threat to end freedom of movement overnight is reckless, say EU citizens

I do think this Boris government are seriously thinking of ending free movement day after Brexit. 

This is another Windrush situation. 

They might not do it. But I would not put it past them. 

Government still not budging on making status of other EU nationals declaratory. Which would solve this issue.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 19, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> Reply to Priti Patel from the 3Million group.
> 
> Threat to end freedom of movement overnight is reckless, say EU citizens
> 
> ...


yeh. but before this can happen we'd need to leave the eu and i would be rather surprised if the uk were not in the eu on 1/1/19

as i've said elsewhere, the chances of getting a trade deal from the usa if there's no deal are effectively 0 as the house of representatives, let alone the senate, will be unimpressed with the good friday agreement being buggered - the usa is a guarantor of the deal. all the noises trump makes about a trade deal is just that, noise, he can't deliver one without congress


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 19, 2019)

From the guardian article.



> A Home Office spokesperson told the Independent: “The home secretary has been clear in her intention to take back control of our borders and end free movement after 31 October.



Makes it clear what this government is thinking.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 19, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> From the guardian article.
> 
> 
> 
> Makes it clear what this government is thinking.


this government cannot leave the eu without making things extremely difficult for itself in america, let alone europe. they can fart out wind about ending free movement, but they don't have the freedom of action they claim.


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## TopCat (Aug 19, 2019)

My Polish HM got settled status recently.


----------



## ska invita (Aug 19, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> Reply to Priti Patel from the 3Million group.
> 
> Threat to end freedom of movement overnight is reckless, say EU citizens
> 
> ...


It's so unworkable and the carnage so great surely it's just pre election showing off how big a bunch of cunts they are. Though as you say, there is nothing I wouldn't put past them.


----------



## ska invita (Aug 19, 2019)

TopCat said:


> My Polish HM got settled status recently.


Well over 2 million + to go


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## TopCat (Aug 19, 2019)

ska invita said:


> Well over 2 million + to go


Not denying the shitness of it.


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## Des Kinvig (Aug 19, 2019)

I would advise any eu citizens to get the settled status done quick so you have indefinite leave to remain before 31st october. I think a lot of people have bought permanent residence cards following the legal advice which has made them complacent about this. Especially with the current government.


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## TopCat (Aug 19, 2019)

shaun23 said:


> I would advise any eu citizens to get the settled status done quick so you have indefinite leave to remain before 31st october. I think a lot of people have bought permanent residence cards following the legal advice which has made them complacent about this. Especially with the current government.


My HM has said loads of her Polish mates and Italians etc have not bothered to apply. They think our govt is so shit it dont matter.


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## Des Kinvig (Aug 19, 2019)

TopCat said:


> My HM has said loads of her Polish mates and Italians etc have not bothered to apply. They think our govt is so shit it dont matter.



Aye I know a few people in the same situation. I think it’s a big mistake, though. The ILR is safe whatever happens, unless you get involved in serious criminality or something. This is according to a lawyer I was talking to who does a bit of immigration work. My understanding is that if there’s no deal, people have one year to apply for settled status, but the day after brexit will have no legal status until they do. It seems to me that’s not a good plan.


----------



## TopCat (Aug 19, 2019)

A lot of these people are working minimum wage in bars, spending limited cash on dope and fun. They ain't too into forms and that.
Problems will start if the govt insist on an employer recheck of staff. They will get exploited to fuck.


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 19, 2019)

shaun23 said:


> Aye I know a few people in the same situation. I think it’s a big mistake, though. The ILR is safe whatever happens, unless you get involved in serious criminality or something. This is according to a lawyer I was talking to who does a bit of immigration work. My understanding is that if there’s no deal, people have one year to apply for settled status, but the day after brexit will have no legal status until they do. It seems to me that’s not a good plan.



I thought the original idea would be a transition period. Then if the person has not applied by end of transition period they would have no legal status. This would also mean that those who come in the transition period could apply. Though they would get pre settled status to begin with. As they would not have five years here.

In the transition period an EU citizen would still have the rights under free movement in EU. Its only at end of transition period they lose them. That would include those who come after Brexit but during the transition period.

From the new government it's looking like they are thinking of getting rid of transition period in case of No Deal.

In which case they are going to have to distinguish between those already here and those who come just after No deal Brexit.

And it's not clear to me how they are going to do that. If that's how the Home Office decides to do it


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 19, 2019)

I know some people have already applied. As the whole Brexit situation is not finished and there is still a chance it won't happen I don't see why people should have to go through whole process of applying. 

It's wrong that people should feel need to apply to keep a status they haven't lost yet. 

A status that's inferior to what they have now.


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 19, 2019)

ska invita said:


> It's so unworkable and the carnage so great surely it's just pre election showing off how big a bunch of cunts they are. Though as you say, there is nothing I wouldn't put past them.



Its pandering to leave means leave lot.

I don't think the fate of EU citizens here in UK is a major concern for a lot of people.

So this government might think it would get support in the country for No deal Brexit if they promised straight after an end to free movement. The we are giving you what you voted for argument. Against those metropolitan establishment types who offer a transition period.


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## ska invita (Aug 19, 2019)

I just saw how this 'freedom of movement will end immediately' thing was being reported just now on the BBC and Ive go to say it sounded like they meant it....if they actually mean this its unimaginable the consequences. Its only logic thats making me think its a play. Feel sick to my stomach in all honesty, all the more knowing this is considered a vote winner.


----------



## flypanam (Aug 19, 2019)

all the talk of coppers and immigration suggests an election is imminent. 

I hate the settled status scheme it cost us a lot of worry and cash but to ignore will have the full force of the immigration plod on your back. In general employers have been offering shit advice, I’ve started emailing eu members of staff in my work place offering my help if they need it.


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## ska invita (Aug 19, 2019)

What can you tell your coworkers when the government is putting out nonsense like this. As of this announcement if they genuinely get to enact this madness then the 2.5 million odd not sufficiently registered are fucked by Nov 1st. It will defacto mean people without the necessary paperwork are illegal to work/live in the UK on 1st Nov..the Day of the Fucking Dead no less. Surely it cant happen...that they would even say it is a disgrace and will have consequences


----------



## Des Kinvig (Aug 19, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> I thought the original idea would be a transition period. Then if the person has not applied by end of transition period they would have no legal status. This would also mean that those who come in the transition period could apply. Though they would get pre settled status to begin with. As they would not have five years here.
> 
> In the transition period an EU citizen would still have the rights under free movement in EU. Its only at end of transition period they lose them. That would include those who come after Brexit but during the transition period.
> 
> ...



Aye, that’s exactly why I think applying now seems like the safest bet. Depending on the circumstances though, it will be easier for some people than others. There’s no requirement to send screeds of unnecessary paperwork like with the PR card, someone close to me did it through the phone app and it took less than ten minutes. It automatically checks NI contributions and suchlike I think.

The problem will be for people who’ve had less stable employment, been doing casual work, had dodgy employers, moved a lot from job to job etc.


----------



## Kaka Tim (Aug 19, 2019)

not sure how much of  a vote winner this is tbh. There are 3 million EU nationals in the Uk. Many many people - most people - will have them as friends, workmates, your kids schoolmates, fellow students. Its people's teachers, doctors, nurses, hairdressers, mechanics etc etc. A huge number of people from will have close family members who are in relationships or close friends with EU nationals. Xenophobia is a lot harder to maintain when it stops being some distant other and suddenly its people who you know and like who are on the receiving end.


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## Gramsci (Aug 19, 2019)

https://www.britsoc.co.uk/about/lat...-racism-and-xenophobia-since-the-brexit-vote/




> Dr Sime, of the University of Strathclyde and project leader, told the conference: “Young people commented that the result of the Brexit referendum had altered their feelings of belonging to the UK and sense of security because of increasing hostility towards migrants being expressed openly by people they knew.



Note that this is from people they know. One comment in the article was from a young man who grew up here. Perfect English. When some realise he's Polish their attitude to him changes.

Ive heard similar comments from EU people here I know of sense of security and belonging here has been undermined by Brexit vote.

Similar to what happened to the Windrush generation.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Aug 19, 2019)

shaun23 said:


> Aye, that’s exactly why I think applying now seems like the safest bet. Depending on the circumstances though, it will be easier for some people than others. There’s no requirement to send screeds of unnecessary paperwork like with the PR card, someone close to me did it through the phone app and it took less than ten minutes. It automatically checks NI contributions and suchlike I think.
> 
> The problem will be for people who’ve had less stable employment, been doing casual work, had dodgy employers, moved a lot from job to job etc.



Its as if the creation of an hidden underclass of cheap unregulated labour with no rights is part of the plan


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## Dogsauce (Aug 20, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> From the guardian article.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



‘Take back control’ again. There’s been a definite rise in bullshit sound bites in the last few weeks, suspect that is Cummings at work. Lots of stuff about police and hospitals. Would help if the opposition was extremely vocal about why we have problems with police numbers and hospitals and whose fault it is. Labour ‘wrecking the economy’ seems another common one. Some of the cunts like Cleverley seem to speak entirely in this vacuous kind of language. Gearing up for the election.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 20, 2019)

Dogsauce said:


> ‘Take back control’ again. There’s been a definite rise in bullshit sound bites in the last few weeks, suspect that is Cummings at work. Lots of stuff about police and hospitals. Would help if the opposition was extremely vocal about why we have problems with police numbers and hospitals and whose fault it is. Labour ‘wrecking the economy’ seems another common one. Some of the cunts like Cleverley seem to speak entirely in this vacuous kind of language. Gearing up for the election.


Should we depart the eu on no deal terms the tories will never lose the wrecking the economy label


----------



## donkyboy (Aug 20, 2019)

Jesus Christ. I can see Sterling taking a pounding on Brexit Day. Get your currencies while you can....


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 20, 2019)

Dogsauce said:


> ‘Take back control’ again. There’s been a definite rise in bullshit sound bites in the last few weeks, suspect that is Cummings at work. Lots of stuff about police and hospitals. Would help if the opposition was extremely vocal about why we have problems with police numbers and hospitals and whose fault it is. Labour ‘wrecking the economy’ seems another common one. Some of the cunts like Cleverley seem to speak entirely in this vacuous kind of language. Gearing up for the election.




Yes it would help if the opposition was more vocal. I heard Diane Abbot on radio this morning. Among other things re Brexit she was asked about immigration policy and free movement. For the life of me I couldn't understand what her position was on the EU people here now. Or on a future Labour government immigration policy.

I'm a Corbyn supporter as I live in borough run by New Labour zealots. (Lambeth) But I really wish the Corbyn side of the Labour party would be more upfront about issues like immigration. And the fate of the EU citizens here.

It almost feels they are doing the "triangulation" type politics that people like me so hates about the Blair years.

Trying to reconcile views across the country that are incapable of being reconciled.

Boris / Cummings/ Patel are starting to put forward simple straightforward message. Which will resonate with large section of voters. I don't agree with it but its clear with no fudging or Triangulation. 

Afraid to say Labour party aren't dealing with this.


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## FridgeMagnet (Aug 20, 2019)

donkyboy said:


> Jesus Christ. I can see Sterling taking a pounding on Brexit Day. Get your currencies while you can....


On Brexit day? It's already down the toilet.


----------



## pseudonarcissus (Aug 20, 2019)

donkyboy said:


> Jesus Christ. I can see Sterling taking a pounding on Brexit Day. Get your currencies while you can....


I liked a meme I saw own Facebook....the contestants on Bake Off say they are delighted to be selected; it means they will have access to milk and eggs after the 31st October.


----------



## andysays (Aug 22, 2019)

Migration: UK cannot end freedom of movement on Brexit day, experts say


> Migration experts say the UK cannot end freedom of movement from the EU on Brexit day because it has no system to work out who is legally in the country. The Home Office said on 19 August that EU freedom of movement would end immediately in a no-deal Brexit. But Oxford University's Migration Observatory said employers will have no way to tell whether EU nationals have arrived after 31 October.


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## DexterTCN (Aug 22, 2019)

andysays said:


> Migration: UK cannot end freedom of movement on Brexit day, experts say


The EU national would have to prove it.


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## Gramsci (Aug 22, 2019)

> A Home Office spokesman said it would set out details of changes to EU migration after Brexit "shortly" but encouraged EU citizens to apply to the settlement scheme.
> 
> "Free movement as it currently stands will end on 31 October when we leave the EU," he said.



This now looks like the Home Office line.

As DexterTCN says it looks like the onus will be on the individual to prove right to be here.

So the quote implies it will be the individuals fault if they haven't applied and got settled status before Brexit.

This is straight out of the Tories book of how to create a hostile environment. 

UK 'cannot end freedom of movement' on Brexit day


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## Gramsci (Aug 22, 2019)

Some of my Black British friends had been advised not to leave UK in case they have problems getting back in. I think the same could apply to EU nationals living here whilst the Brexit fiasco continues. It leaving and and then trying to re enterv the country that's the risky bit.


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## pengaleng (Aug 22, 2019)

cant believe people dont have to register arrival in the UK, this country is a joke.


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## DexterTCN (Aug 28, 2019)




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## Gramsci (Aug 29, 2019)

Leading Brexiteer says government's treatment of EU citizens could end in 'another Windrush scandal'

As the Portuguese woman in video above says the settled status scheme isn't as straightforward as was promised.

Even this Tory Brexit supporting MEP is saying this.

Looks to me that a lot of people aren't getting the settled status but only getting the interior pre settled status.

There is something infuriating about a Tory/ Brexit supporter now saying Brexit wil adversely affect EU citizens post Brexit and that's not what he wanted. I don't believe him.


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## Gramsci (Aug 29, 2019)

DexterTCN said:


>




I wouldn't say impassioned I would say she looks really worried about her future. Its the same look of disbelief that this could be happening I've seen on Windrush peoples faces.

My partner is starting to get worried now this government is in power.

Make no mistake this is what a lot of the hard-line Brexit people wanted. Boris is trying to deliver what they wanted all along.


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## WouldBe (Aug 29, 2019)

They can go home.






Or stay. It's completely up to them.


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## Kaka Tim (Aug 30, 2019)

WouldBe said:


> They can go home.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



no - it wont be up to them. they will have to negotiate a complex, time consuming and expensive bureaucratic maze with a high chance of failure and potential deportation. 3 million people - many of whom have lived here most of their lives - are in limbo. because they are bargaining chips in the hands of cunts.


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## ska invita (Aug 30, 2019)

This tory shit


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## WouldBe (Aug 30, 2019)

Kaka Tim said:


> no - it wont be up to them. they will have to negotiate a complex, time consuming and expensive bureaucratic maze with a high chance of failure and potential deportation. 3 million people - many of whom have lived here most of their lives - are in limbo. because they are bargaining chips in the hands of cunts.


You've obviously missed the fact that these people are needed to do essential jobs in this country or jobs the British can't be bothered to do.
Expelling these people would also risk the EU expelling British ex pats in retaliation.


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## Kaka Tim (Aug 30, 2019)

WouldBe said:


> You've obviously missed the fact that these people are needed to do essential jobs in this country or jobs the British can't be bothered to do.
> Expelling these people would also risk the EU expelling British ex pats in retaliation.



no i haven't missed that fact. the brexiteers have - and the government are choosing to ignore it. although fuck off with the "jobs the british cant be bothered to do" tosh.


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## WouldBe (Aug 30, 2019)

Kaka Tim said:


> no i haven't missed that fact. the brexiteers have - and the government are choosing to ignore it. although fuck off with the "jobs the british cant be bothered to do" tosh.


So why are the vast majority of people who harvest fruit and vegetables usually Eastern European?


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## StoneRoad (Aug 30, 2019)

WouldBe said:


> So why are the vast majority of people who harvest fruit and vegetables usually Eastern European?



and "domestic" work in hotels, bars, hospitals ...

often it is because the wages are shockingly low, so low that most British will not take those jobs.


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## MickiQ (Aug 30, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> Some of my Black British friends had been advised not to leave UK in case they have problems getting back in. I think the same could apply to EU nationals living here whilst the Brexit fiasco continues. It leaving and and then trying to re enterv the country that's the risky bit.


Are your friends  actual British citizens with a British passport or are they like the people involved in Windrush who had settled status rather than citizenship?


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## ska invita (Aug 30, 2019)

WouldBe said:


> You've obviously missed the fact that these people are needed to do essential jobs in this country or jobs the British can't be bothered to do.
> Expelling these people would also risk the EU expelling British ex pats in retaliation.


Your post suggests what is happening about the perils of settled status isn't happening, because 'jobs need doing'. Its happening and its very very legal. Have you been reading the thread? It doesn't sound like it. Where is your reason to doubt reality coming from other than you cant imagine it?

The plan is there will be a new points based immigration system introduced post Nov 19 or March 2021 Settled Status deadline. This is how 'jobs' will be filled going into the future. The details aren't known on that. Possibly a more white-skinned english-speaking CANZUK emphasis has been posited by some Tories...its hard to say. India has said any new trade deal would be predicated on more migrants from India being allowed to come to the UK for example.

Whatever the future, in the meantime there is a gulf opening up that will make what looks like it will be hundreds of thousands of people living here legally at present become illegal once the deadline (either 1st Nov 2019 or March 2021 depending) passes, if they dont get their settled status or similiar right to remain.

And in regards 'retaliation', its different country to country, but yes, British migrants living in at least some if not all union countries are also currently having to go through legal/registration processes to make sure they can stay living there. No doubt there will be many people who will be caught out from that side too.  Its not tit-for-tat exactly - its an inter-national change in the law.


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## flypanam (Aug 30, 2019)

Brits not Out are holding a demo in Dublin on Tuesday. No comment but good name.


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## Proper Tidy (Aug 30, 2019)

WouldBe said:


> So why are the vast majority of people who harvest fruit and vegetables usually Eastern European?


Because the pay is shit


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## Gramsci (Aug 30, 2019)

MickiQ said:


> Are your friends  actual British citizens with a British passport or are they like the people involved in Windrush who had settled status rather than citizenship?



They are British in sense of being formerly part of British Empire which was succeeded by the Commonwealth. A family of nations under the Queen.

 They came here post war under free movement of Commonwealth citizens which was gradually restricted. 

People forget that as post war the idea was free movement within the Commonwealth.

Windrush hostile environment was about making them prove this.

The parallels with free movement of EU citizens isn't lost on black British people I know.


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## pogofish (Aug 30, 2019)

WouldBe said:


> So why are the vast majority of people who harvest fruit and vegetables usually Eastern European?



And the government licenced gangmasters who recruit them tend to work entirely in those countries.  The old days of poor people from the cities getting hired by the day or shipping-out to country villages and living under tarpaulins for a week at a time for the "picking" are long gone - a bucolic memory.  Agriculture is a year round and highly organised business now.

And any local folk who had previously got work on the gangs have largely given-up because of miserable conditions, appalling treatment, shit pay, back-breaking work and any excuse being found to hold-back chunks of their meagre money for any number of spurious/invented reasons.

And frankly I doubt brexit will make much difference here - these sharks will always get their "quota" of labour to import from wherever is cheapest.


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## DexterTCN (Aug 30, 2019)

pogofish said:


> ...And frankly I doubt brexit will make much difference here - these sharks will always get their "quota" of labour to import from wherever is cheapest.


Newcastle?


----------



## Anju (Aug 30, 2019)

This is disgusting but not really a surprise. 

People's lives are being stolen. 

Rise in EU citizens not getting UK settled status causes alarm


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## DexterTCN (Aug 30, 2019)

Anju said:


> This is disgusting but not really a surprise.
> 
> People's lives are being stolen.
> 
> Rise in EU citizens not getting UK settled status causes alarm


Oh some of them can stay...but with less rights.

Get me out of this cunting place.


----------



## Anju (Aug 30, 2019)

DexterTCN said:


> Oh some of them can stay...but with less rights.
> 
> Get me out of this cunting place.



I know a few people considering a move.

From a friend's Facebook post.

This one? London/Manchester will always feel like home but now one where we need to think about plan B. No it doesn’t feel the same anymore and certain personal experiences of racism have added to that. I’m not sure I want to grow old here. But if not here, where? I’ve seen the disrespect of the windrush generation, the fact that when people talk about the war they forget about other nationals fro the Common wealth who fought on the side off allies. There are people in this country who think that Britain was made great all by itself and it is ludicrous. The ludicrous delusion. I could go on.... But yes one has to think about the future.


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## FridgeMagnet (Aug 30, 2019)

I mean this is the point of immigration laws, to restrict the rights of a certain proportion of the population for the benefit of capital, as well as use that to attack other workers who don't fall into that category. Your whole life is dependent on your relationship with your employer - not just "you might be a bit inconvenienced" but "you will almost certainly have to completely abandon your whole life if you piss off your boss".

I've lived under this in the US. It's not fun. And I was in the "skilled" class of immigrant.


----------



## Anju (Aug 30, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I mean this is the point of immigration laws, to restrict the rights of a certain proportion of the population for the benefit of capital, as well as use that to attack other workers who don't fall into that category. Your whole life is dependent on your relationship with your employer - not just "you might be a bit inconvenienced" but "you will almost certainly have to completely abandon your whole life if you piss off your boss".
> 
> I've lived under this in the US. It's not fun. And I was in the "skilled" class of immigrant.



It's being used to attack all aspects of life at the moment. The whole hostile environment thing is still in effect.

As an example. My mother in law turns 80 this year and we're having a big celebration. She came here from Guyana I'm her early 20s and worked as a nurse in elderly care. She spent her whole life here looking after mostly white English people, often facing racial abuse from the people she was looking after. Now it's looking like she might not be able to get a visitor visa for her brother to come for her birthday. He's been here 3 times in the past but this time it's suddenly an issue. My mother in law has just got together the details for their third request for more information.

Agree with what you said but this seems different. People feel under attack from a country they felt was home before.


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## teqniq (Aug 31, 2019)

'Where do I go?' EU citizens face legal limbo after decades in Britain - Reuters


----------



## DexterTCN (Aug 31, 2019)




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## ska invita (Sep 1, 2019)

The Times reporting the 1st November scrapping of freedom of movement is in the bin, because obviously it would create legal pandemonium... the whistle was heard, thats the most important thing.


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## Gramsci (Sep 1, 2019)

DexterTCN said:


>




I notice the pre settled status means no welfare benefits. This is going to affect people who rely on benefits to top up low income.


----------



## DexterTCN (Sep 1, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> I notice the pre settled status means no welfare benefits. This is going to affect people who rely on benefits to top up low income.


Yup, a silent method of deportation.


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## Supine (Sep 1, 2019)

Found out today that 3 of my friends have not received settled status. I'm so fucking angry about brexit. These are people who are living here for 10+ years, with decent jobs and with kids who were born here. Embarrassing


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Sep 1, 2019)

Sadly all too predictable.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Sep 2, 2019)

WouldBe said:


> They can go home.
> 
> 
> Or stay. It's completely up to them.



Can they? Just like that? Are you sure?

Brexit: Mum who has lived in UK for 55 years is denied residency | Metro News

You appear to be making light of a very serious situation lots of people find themselves in.


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## not-bono-ever (Sep 2, 2019)

anecdotal- good friend has been here since last century. married to an Albanian with an Italian passport( parents got out during the 90s economic collapse). kids in school here. both have worked solidy and claimed pretty much nothing apart from child benefits.paid their stamp and taxes, better credit rating than me. husbands application was rejected. they dont have the time or money to enagage with this  with the summer ending and school starting. worried about the kids schooling and continuity. landlord of 10 years has expressed concern about their status after brexit ( hes actually decent and not some kind of rackhman- just doesnt have a clue how it works and doenst want to fall foul of the law)> they are decamping back to Slovakia now. its killing them. this exodus has already started. they dont feel welcome by the regime any more


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## teqniq (Sep 2, 2019)

What a fucking shitshow.


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## ska invita (Sep 2, 2019)

not-bono-ever said:


> anecdotal- good friend has been here since last century. married to an Albanian with an Italian passport( parents got out during the 90s economic collapse). kids in school here. both have worked solidy and claimed pretty much nothing apart from child benefits.paid their stamp and taxes, better credit rating than me. husbands application was rejected. they dont have the time or money to enagage with this  with the summer ending and school starting. worried about the kids schooling and continuity. landlord of 10 years has expressed concern about their status after brexit ( hes actually decent and not some kind of rackhman- just doesnt have a clue how it works and doenst want to fall foul of the law)> they are decamping back to Slovakia now. its killing them. this exodus has already started. they dont feel welcome by the regime any more


The deadline is March 2021, encourage them to hold on a bit?


----------



## teqniq (Sep 2, 2019)

Indeed. There seems to be no joined-up thinking going on at the Home Office, why am i not surprised? Hopefully they will get their act together and/or thing will change for the better.


----------



## ska invita (Sep 2, 2019)

teqniq said:


> Indeed. There seems to be no joined-up thinking going on at the Home Office, why am i not surprised? Hopefully they will get their act together and/or thing will change for the better.


Oh it's joined up alright...joined from bottom to the top


----------



## harpo (Sep 2, 2019)

ska invita said:


> The deadline is March 2021, encourage them to hold on a bit?


That's what I have said to my husband.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Sep 2, 2019)

ska invita said:


> The deadline is March 2021, encourage them to hold on a bit?



 They’ve had enough of the insecurity and the toxicity around the whole debacle


----------



## ska invita (Sep 2, 2019)

not-bono-ever said:


> They’ve had enough of the insecurity and the toxicity around the whole debacle



It takes mental toll...no accident that. See DWP for details


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## teqniq (Sep 2, 2019)

Spoke to a Slovakian colleague at work and she got settled status with three days of her application.


----------



## spitfire (Sep 2, 2019)

Oh this is going well...


----------



## StoneRoad (Sep 4, 2019)

beeb info
No-deal Brexit: Three-year stay for EU nationals


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## ska invita (Sep 4, 2019)

hopefully irrelevant as there wont be a no deal brexit


----------



## Gramsci (Sep 4, 2019)

StoneRoad said:


> beeb info
> No-deal Brexit: Three-year stay for EU nationals



I don't understand this.

At least with May had some understanding of what was happening.

I'm not clear what this three year leave to Remain means.

Does it mean that after that one can apply for settled status after three year? Or under a points system if your job is not needed will you have to leave?

Is it separate from Pre settled and settled status?

Also the tougher criminal checks. What does that mean?

Under hostile environment people who have minor issues with the law have faced losing right to be here. Are they going to extend that to other EU citizens post Brexit?

This Boris government has already had to backtrack on ending free movement on day one of No Deal Brexit they want.

I don't feel at all sure of status of EU citizens post Brexit with this lot in power.


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## flypanam (Sep 5, 2019)

ETA I made a mistake thinking this was about the airing of an earlier scheme. 

To me this just smacks of electioneering. Especially with the increased levels of checks for criminality and I suspect severe punishment for minor offences. No more pissing in public.

The issue is how will landlords, employers those that now police the border differentiate between settled, pre settled and 3 year visitor. I suspect it will be almost impossible to police as jjudging from the technological aspect it seems similar to the settled status scheme hence getting a long number to prove your right to reside...not at all a cock up. 

Fuck me but Patel is a thick.


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## Favelado (Sep 5, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> I don't understand this.
> 
> At least with May had some understanding of what was happening.
> 
> ...



Meanwhile, British people who live abroad have no idea of how this will affect us either. It just goes on and on. Will I lose healthcare rights? Will my pension be affected? What about benefits? Who cares - my vote doesn't swing elections anyway you see.


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## Gramsci (Sep 5, 2019)

Government announces immigration plans for no deal Brexit

Looked up what the government say. This as put up on 4th September.

The whole government article assumes No Deal Brexit is what this Boris government is planning for.

So the way I read it when this government has got its No Deal Brexit on the 31st October. This is promised "come what may".

The May "transitional period" will go.

To be replaced with end of free movement and requiring for people arriving after 31st to apply for this third category ( on top of pre and settled status) which is three year leave to remain.

By end of this three year period a new points based immigration system will be in place. ( 2021 is planned implementation of points based)  When ones three year leave to remain finishes then one can try too stay under the points based system.

This is a change.

The May government transitional period would have meant one could still apply for pre settled status up to end of the transitional period. That is free movement would stay for the transitional period.

The government article does not say what the the tighter criminal checks are in practise.

The article does say landlords:




> Employers and landlords will not be required to distinguish between EU citizens who arrived before and after exit until the future immigration system is introduced from 2021.



But my reading of this article is that the post Brexit people will have to have a three year leave to remain status to be here. So landlords surely will need to check this status post Brexit? I don't understand this from reading this government article.

In which case what will those EU citizens here before Brexit who have not yet applied for settled status do?

How will landlord differentiate between those who came post Brexit , who require three year leave to remain, and those who have been here for years who still have time to apply for settled status?

Or am I reading it wrong?



> Applications for the scheme will open after the UK leaves the EU and will involve a simple online process and identity, security and criminality checks. EU citizens will receive a digital status lasting three years entitling them to work and rent property during this period. EU citizens wishing to stay on in the UK after their temporary status expires will need to make a further application under the new points-based immigration system.



Government announces immigration plans for no deal Brexit


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## Gramsci (Sep 5, 2019)

Another quote :



> Further measures to be introduced after 31 October 2019 include:
> 
> 
> removing the blue EU customs channel, requiring all travellers to make customs declarations by choosing the red or green channel
> ...



So no transitional period.

This is the difference between May government and Boris/ Priti


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## Gramsci (Sep 5, 2019)

Patel is awful:

Home Secretary Priti Patel said:



> On 31 October, we will leave the EU come what may.
> 
> Introducing tougher checks and ending free movement as it currently stands will allow us to take the first, historic steps towards taking back control of our borders.



This is why I was against Brexit. Knew the right would use it in this way. They feel vindicated by the leave vote.


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## Flavour (Sep 5, 2019)

That's only if there's a no deal Brexit though. Which, unless the Tories win the (very probably) upcoming general election with a clear majority, (probably) won't happen. may's deal (which they may bring back) guarantees transition period and right to remain. Priti vacant is just having a no deal wank.


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## wemakeyousoundb (Sep 6, 2019)

hmm to apply or not to apply :/


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## DexterTCN (Sep 7, 2019)




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## Gramsci (Sep 9, 2019)

from the 3 million website. Patel and Boris appear to have forgotten the promises they made.


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## Gramsci (Sep 23, 2019)

https://www.the3million.org.uk/automatic-rights

My Spanish partner went to the Spanish Embassy here in London at invite of Spanish government. She is now officially in eyes of Spanish government a Spanish national resident in this country. No fuss and as she said friendly Spanish welcome unlike Brexit UK state bureaucracy.

The 3 million have been arguing for a simple "declatory" system for EU nationals from other parts of Europe so that they can stay here post Brexit.

Instead of this hostile environment styled so called Settled Status.

Where a lot of people are ending up only getting pre settled status.

In all the arguments about Boris , Corbyn and LDs view on Brexit the fate of EU citizens form other parts of Europe is being forgotten again.


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## ska invita (Sep 27, 2019)

16% of over 65s have applied (not got, applied) for settled status so far. (Source BBC)


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## ska invita (Sep 28, 2019)

ska invita said:


> 16% of over 65s have applied (not got, applied) for settled status so far. (Source BBC)


slightly more stats on this - came from an Age UK report in fact

"
Analysis from the charity shows that just 16% of older people have made an application to the scheme - compared to 30% of working-age people so far.

And Age UK is warning that with 118,000 EU nationals over 65 expected to apply for the scheme, just 19,210 have done so

Of those, 14,240 having been granted settled status and 2,660 have been granted pre-settled status.

Applicants are meanwhile mostly expected to apply online - but the charity said that could cause problems when a quarter of over-65s (24%) say they have not used the internet at all in the last three months.

That figure rises sharply further up the age-range.

The group is also concerned that many older people currently do not have a valid passport because they are no longer able to travel."


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## ska invita (Oct 8, 2019)

long read today ‘I’ve been here 50 years’: the EU citizens struggling for the right to stay in Britain
has nothing much in it not covered in the thread, but I hadnt heard this before:

*"To reduce the possibility of fraud, there is no physical document at the end of the process, just a digital record, which can be shared with a landlord or an employer (after Brexit, they will have to check EU nationals’ eligibility) via a time-limited unique code, on a smartphone."*

So for those who pass the process some random 'time-limited' thing on your phone is your pass to housing and work - access to the NHS? - sounds like its the one piece of proof you can show. What could possibly go wrong.


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## SpookyFrank (Oct 8, 2019)

ska invita said:


> *"To reduce the possibility of fraud, there is no physical document...*



My palm nearly came clean out the back of my head when I read that one


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## SpookyFrank (Oct 8, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> View attachment 183751
> 
> from the 3 million website. Patel and Boris appear to have forgotten the promises they made.



I'd prefer a postcard that said 'we will be out in the street with chair legs and cricket bats if you come for our friends and neighbours' but that's just me.


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## FridgeMagnet (Oct 8, 2019)

ska invita said:


> long read today ‘I’ve been here 50 years’: the EU citizens struggling for the right to stay in Britain
> has nothing much in it not covered in the thread, but I hadnt heard this before:
> 
> *"To reduce the possibility of fraud, there is no physical document at the end of the process, just a digital record, which can be shared with a landlord or an employer (after Brexit, they will have to check EU nationals’ eligibility) via a time-limited unique code, on a smartphone."*
> ...


Maybe this is the software developer in me but I still can't get over the fact that they built the whole process around an app that didn't work on iPhones and was never going to work on iPhones. There has never been any indication that Apple will ever open up their NFC system. I mean building it around an app is stupid to begin with but this is just amazing.


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## Dogsauce (Oct 9, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Maybe this is the software developer in me but I still can't get over the fact that they built the whole process around an app that didn't work on iPhones and was never going to work on iPhones. There has never been any indication that Apple will ever open up their NFC system. I mean building it around an app is stupid to begin with but this is just amazing.



_Technological solutions_ innit. They’ve also just worked out how to solve the Irish border conundrum using a piece of software that runs on a Palm Pilot.


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## FridgeMagnet (Oct 9, 2019)

Dogsauce said:


> _Technological solutions_ innit. They’ve also just worked out how to solve the Irish border conundrum using a piece of software that runs on a Palm Pilot.


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## ska invita (Oct 10, 2019)

Lets face it, the majority of people don't give a fuck - that includes plenty on the "left". Collateral damage. What a shame eh. Get Brexit Done. 
Brandon Lewis today made it clear people without status will get deported - obviously - contradicting BJs official blatant lie of "protecting the rights of EU citizens in the UK". Based on the scale of this I cant think of a more scandalous and outrageous internal political act in my life time in the UK. Barely a peep about it. Most people don't even know its happening. Of those that do many look the other way. Press coverage -  next to none, with little sense of alarm. If everyone in Bristol (half a mill - sounds about right) were liable to become illegal and deportable next year you think there might be a bit more of a story here. But no, these people aren't really British, so fuck em. Foreign workers arent they? Isnt there a field in France they can pick fruit in if they love the EU so much?

That there's a right wing government drive to kick out "foreigners" from the UK comes as no surprise. But the support they have for it, either silent or vocal, makes me want to vomit. Its taught me a lot this whole episode. Lesson learned, wont forget it.


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## redsquirrel (Oct 10, 2019)

And exactly what political lesson(s) have you learned?

Of course the actions of the government are appalling but what are you saying here? That populaces are responsible for the actions of their governments?


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## DexterTCN (Oct 10, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> And exactly what political lesson(s) have you learned?
> 
> Of course the actions of the government are appalling but what are you saying here? That populaces are responsible for the actions of their governments?


Didn't you post this, elsewhere?



> a worker who holds reactionary opinions about immigrants may be a dick but they are still a worker, their class interest are still aligned with mine (and presumably yours). A boss may be lovely and progressive, may be implementing all kinds of policies that tackle discrimination, inequality and even workplace democracy but at a fundamental level their interests are in opposition to those of their workers.


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## Proper Tidy (Oct 10, 2019)

Romantic scottish nationalist meets basic marxism


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## redsquirrel (Oct 10, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Romantic scottish nationalist meets basic marxism


Misogynistic rather than romantic.


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## DexterTCN (Oct 10, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Romantic scottish nationalist meets basic marxism


Basic marxism is that racism is ok as long as the racist is working class?


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## DexterTCN (Oct 10, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> Misogynistic rather than romantic.


Yeah I blocked that thread after being called a rape fantasist by one of your mates.  Your problem is that my post #627 about you was relevant to this thread.

Yours isn't


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## andysays (Oct 10, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> And exactly what political lesson(s) have you learned?
> 
> Of course the actions of the government are appalling but what are you saying here? That populaces are responsible for the actions of their governments?


Only those of us who voted Leave, obviously. We are clearly not only responsible but at the very least don't give a fuck and  probably secretly glad.


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## DexterTCN (Oct 10, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Romantic scottish nationalist meets basic marxism


When I brought up squirrel's post on the brexit thread...you brought up my nationality there as well


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## Proper Tidy (Oct 10, 2019)

DexterTCN said:


> When I brought up squirrel's post on the brexit thread...you brought up my nationality there as well


Because that's your political identity you bell


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## DexterTCN (Oct 10, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Because that's your political identity you bell


And you see that as an insult?


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## redsquirrel (Oct 10, 2019)

I know it's not worth engaging with Dexter - not only is he an idiot but his politics went down the sinkhole some time ago.

However, for any lurkers.



redsquirrel said:


> Or to put it in crude terms - a worker who holds reactionary opinions about immigrants may be a dick but they are still a worker, their class interest are still aligned with mine (and presumably yours). A boss may be lovely and progressive, may be implementing all kinds of policies that tackle discrimination, inequality and even workplace democracy but at a fundamental level their interests are in opposition to those of their workers.


I made the statement above in a discussion about the distinction between progressive politics (based on shared views) and class politics (based on shared interests). As I acknowledged at the time it is a crude, but nevertheless IMO clear, example of how class interests align workers _despite their differing political views_. Of course it at no point implies that racism or reactionary views about immigration is ok (hence the "dick") and I don't believe anyone bar a moron could claim otherwise.

To go back to the wider point and ska invita's post. It is, obviously, inevitable that there are conflicts of interest between workers at different time and places - conflicts based on nationality, race, sex, sexuality. But that does not mean that (1) a politics based on interests should be jettisoned for one based on views and (2) fundamentally the interests of all workers are not advanced by increased the power and self-organisation of the working class. On a previous thread chilango talked about communities having control of immigration policy


chilango said:


> After all who better to make judgements about whether a community would benefit from "incomers" than the community itself.


Many people objected to this, for similar reasons to those that ska's post appears to be based on, essentially because workers might make "wrong" decisions. But surely the aim of any socialist must be for immigration policy to be under the control of workers. The alternative is to argue that it should be capital that is making, or at least has the leading role in making, such decisions*.

I'm confident that the process of class struggle will mean that immigrant and non-immigrant workers are able to see that their interests are aligned and actions to support all workers are taken (just as has happened many times during the past). But if that doesn't happen what is the alternative? That the working class need to be led to the "correct" views by the party/group/enlightened? Certainly socialists can and should always argue in favour of internationalism but the moment we start to argue against workers control we might as well give up - the new boss will be the same as the old.


*I am of course simplifying here, as with all of the political sphere labour and capital will be competing for control with both playing a role in determining policy - at least until the workers take control of the means of production.


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## Proper Tidy (Oct 10, 2019)

DexterTCN said:


> And you see that as an insult?


Being scottish, no, wanting independence, also no, being a nationalist, yes


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## DexterTCN (Oct 10, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Being scottish, no, wanting independence, also no, being a nationalist, yes


Not the nationalism affecting people on this thread, mate.  By a long shot.


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## chilango (Oct 10, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> I know it's not worth engaging with Dexter - not only is he an idiot but his politics went down the sinkhole some time ago.
> 
> However, for any lurkers.
> 
> ...



Worth noting that my suggestion here is not restricted to immigration, but also to internal migration. It applies as much to incomers to rural Welsh speaking communities or the terraces of Reading...


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## DexterTCN (Oct 10, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> I know it's not worth engaging with Dexter - not only is he an idiot but his politics went down the sinkhole some time ago.
> 
> However, for any lurkers.
> 
> ...


tldr

Socialists will allow this deportation program just now then consider fixing it later depending on their needs.


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## redsquirrel (Oct 10, 2019)

chilango said:


> Worth noting that my suggestion here is not restricted to immigration, but also to internal migration. It applies as much to incomers to rural Welsh speaking communities or the terraces of Reading...


Yes sorry - I did try think of a better word to use than immigration but couldn't think of one, should have used migration as you have said.


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## ska invita (Oct 22, 2019)

This suggests EU states may not agree the bill unless the Tories overhaul the process - which seems unlikely to happen to me, but would be great if so





-----
Also interesting link here Do the EU Settlement Scheme statistics add up? | Free Movement
Suggests in the government stats of people who have signed up, people are 1. being pushed into pre-setlled status when tehy should have settled status 2. having pre-settled status means you have to reapply 3. cases of reapplying are being counted again. So the figure of applications is not of applicants, but of applications - i.e. bigger than the number of applicants

Also there are 330,000+ cases in limbo with no ruling at the moment. They are still being counted as applications.


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## ska invita (Nov 21, 2019)

From waht i gather the Lab manfiesto gives all EU nationals living in UK the automatic right to stay


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## Gramsci (Dec 6, 2019)

Gove on radio this morning criticising Labour for saying if their is another referendum EU nationals resident here will get a vote.

They were excluded last time. This angered a lot of people I know who have lived here for years and made this country their home.

The  referendum made them feel unwanted here. They has no say in something that would affect them personally.

Gove hits out at Labour plan to let EU citizens vote in a second referendum


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## andysays (Dec 6, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> Gove on radio this morning criticising Labour for saying if their is another referendum EU nationals resident here will get a vote.
> 
> They were excluded last time. This angered a lot of people I know who have lived here for years and made this country their home.
> 
> ...



It's worth pointing out first that no other EU country allows nationals of all other EU states to vote in their national elections.
The Labour policy, as I understand it, is to let all UK residents (not just EU citizens) vote in all national elections (not just a hypothetical 2nd Brexit referendum). I think this is a positive suggestion, but it does throw up the question of who exactly will count as a UK residents and whether people will have to register in some way beyond the electoral register. There is also the question of whether e.g. French citizens registered to vote in UK elections will or should also still be able to vote in their home country.

ETA edited to take on the point about reciprocal UK/Irish voting rights


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## Idris2002 (Dec 6, 2019)

andysays said:


> It's worth pointing out first that no other EU country allows nationals of other EU states to vote in their national elections.
> The Labour policy, as I understand it, is to let all UK residents (not just EU citizens) vote in all national elections (not just a hypothetical 2nd Brexit referendum). I think this is a positive suggestion, but it does throw up the question of who exactly will count as a UK residents and whether people will have to register in some way beyond the electoral register. There is also the question of whether e.g. French citizens registered to vote in UK elections will or should also still be able to vote in their home country.


Not quite:

"Residents of the state who are Irish citizens or British citizens may vote in elections to the national parliament."

Elections in the Republic of Ireland - Wikipedia


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## flypanam (Dec 6, 2019)

Idris2002 beat me to it.


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## andysays (Dec 6, 2019)

Idris2002 said:


> Not quite:
> 
> "Residents of the state who are Irish citizens or British citizens may vote in elections to the national parliament."
> 
> Elections in the Republic of Ireland - Wikipedia


Yeah, there are arrangements between the UK and Eire,  but they pre-date and have nothing to do with the EU.

French or Polish citizens can't vote in Irish national elections either.


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## littlebabyjesus (Dec 6, 2019)

andysays said:


> Yeah, there are arrangements between the UK and Eire,  but they pre-date and have nothing to do with the EU.
> 
> French or Polish citizens can't vote in Irish national elections either.


It's not just Irish citizens. It's also citizens of a long list of Commonwealth countries who have leave to remain in the UK. It would be very easy (and very equitable) to extend that to everyone who has leave to remain, regardless of where they are from. Currently, EU citizens living here can vote in local but not national elections, while non-EU, non-Commonwealth citizens living here cannot register to vote at all. It's high time that was changed.

Personally I'd do the above and drastically curb the rights of 'ex-pats' to vote. Fifteen years away is a long time. I'd reduce that limit to something more like three. There is an argument for reducing it to zero.


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## andysays (Dec 6, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> It's not just Irish citizens. It's also citizens of a long list of Commonwealth countries who have leave to remain in the UK. It would be very easy (and very equitable) to extend that to everyone who has leave to remain, regardless of where they are from. Currently, EU citizens living here can vote in local but not national elections, while non-EU, non-Commonwealth citizens living here cannot register to vote at all. It's high time that was changed.


The point I'm making, after saying that I support the Labour proposals, is that nowhere else in the EU (apart from the arrangement between the UK and Eire) allows citizens of all other EU countries to vote in their national elections, it's by no means something unique to the nasty UK denying EU citizens rights they would have elsewhere.


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## Gramsci (Dec 6, 2019)

andysays said:


> The point I'm making, after saying that I support the Labour proposals, is that nowhere else in the EU (apart from the arrangement between the UK and Eire) allows citizens of all other EU countries to vote in their national elections, it's by no means something unique to the nasty UK denying EU citizens rights they would have elsewhere.



I was not talking about national elections.

EU citizens resident here in UK are allowed to vote in Council elections and also election to the EU parliament ( as long as they waive right to vote in country of origin).

The referendum was not a national election. It was a political choice to exclude UE citizens resident here a vote in the referendum.

My partner and my friends from Eastern Europe were on the electoral list yet denied voting rights in a referendum that personally would affect them.

This was nasty and deliberate. I heard Gove this morning. Its , according to him, not democratic to allow EU nationals here to vote in referendum. BTW I know and have worked with a lot of people from EU. They are all working class. So Tories made sure a section of the working class here were excluded.

My Spanish partner is registered here on the electoral list and her status here is a Spanish national resident in this country by the Spanish state. So she votes here.


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## Azrael (Dec 7, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> I was not talking about national elections.
> 
> EU citizens resident here in UK are allowed to vote in Council elections and also election to the EU parliament ( as long as they waive right to vote in country of origin).
> 
> ...


The temptation for politicians to scapegoat a large yet disenfranchised resident population is why, despite my misgivings over its effect on citizenship, I also support full voting rights for EEA and Swiss nationals, especially given the liberal policy for Commonwealth citizens.


littlebabyjesus said:


> Personally I'd do the above and drastically curb the rights of 'ex-pats' to vote. Fifteen years away is a long time. I'd reduce that limit to something more like three. There is an argument for reducing it to zero.


Here I disagree. While they may be more immediately affected by events in their new home, they're still members of the national family, will still have interests back home, and domestic policies can end up directly impinging on their lives. To disenfranchise them weakens those bonds. If all expatriates had retained their vote in 2016, things might have gone very differently.


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## Yossarian (Dec 7, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> This was nasty and deliberate.



Yep - and as I've probably said already on a different thread, this has gone hand in hand with a very steep rise in the fees to become a British citizen, which is part of the whole "hostile environment" policy to keep immigration numbers down.

Countries that are slightly less shit sometimes encourage long-term residents to become citizens and take part in democracy, but Britain is trying to make it as difficult as possible - fees to become a citizen now far exceed the cost of actually processing the applications.

If the Brexit referendum had been a real referendum instead of a poisonous Tory pile of shit and if the UK was a real country instead of a seething mass of resentments heaped together on an island then EU citizens residing in Britain long-term would have been allowed to have a say in their futures. 

Instead, they've had more than a third of a decade of stress and insecurity before Brexit even happens - the whole thing is already evidently a massive failure, I wish we could just fast-forward 5 to 10 years until the recriminations and backtracking from the Tory architects of Brexit begin.


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## Azrael (Dec 7, 2019)

Yossarian said:


> Yep - and as I've probably said already on a different thread, this has gone hand in hand with a very steep rise in the fees to become a British citizen, which is part of the whole "hostile environment" policy to keep immigration numbers down.
> 
> Countries that are slightly less shit sometimes encourage long-term residents to become citizens and take part in democracy, but Britain is trying to make it as difficult as possible - fees to become a citizen now far exceed the cost of actually processing the applications.
> 
> ...


Extortionate naturalisation fees remind me of the sadistic glee that Hanoverian gaolers took in charging their wretched prisoners rent for their own incarceration. Alongside unchecked corruption at the heart of Whitehall and the scouring of her industrial heartlands, it's just another testament to Britain's decline into a money-grubbing oligarchy, where the robber barons reborn are unrestrained by even a hint of _noblesse oblige_, feeling not the slightest loyalty to their country or its people.

When our fellow citizens are treated with such icy contempt, what hope is there that those in power will show kindness and welcome to immigrants?


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## andysays (Dec 7, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> I was not talking about national elections.
> 
> EU citizens resident here in UK are allowed to vote in Council elections and also election to the EU parliament ( as long as they waive right to vote in country of origin).
> 
> ...


It seems to me that a referendum to decide if a nation remains in a supra-national organisation like the EU is pretty much the perfect example of a national election.

I know what the current position is regarding voting rights of EU nationals resident in other EU countries; I know that they are allowed to vote in local elections and also in European elections but (with the exception of the special UK/Eire arrangements which pre-date the EU) not in national elections.

As I've already said, I think it's a positive step for the Labour party to take to allow *all *UK residents (not just EU and Commonwealth citizens) to vote in *all* UK national elections, but I also know that EU law does not require member countries to allow citizens of one EU country resident in another country to vote in that country's national elections and, to the best of my knowledge, no EU countries currently choose to do this.

In the hypothetical situation where you and you partner decided to become resident in Spain, do you think you would be able to vote in Spanish national elections?


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## DexterTCN (Dec 7, 2019)

EU residents in Scotland are allowed to vote in indyrefs.


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## andysays (Dec 7, 2019)

DexterTCN said:


> EU residents in Scotland are allowed to vote in indyrefs.


That's a good point which I'd forgotten. Does that apply specifically to EU citizens, or is it everyone resident in Scotland?

And out of interest, can EU citizens vote in MSP elections?


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## DexterTCN (Dec 7, 2019)

EU's resident here can vote and stand for Holyrood (MSP) and MEP seats.


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## Gramsci (Dec 7, 2019)

andysays said:


> It seems to me that a referendum to decide if a nation remains in a supra-national organisation like the EU is pretty much the perfect example of a national election.
> 
> I know what the current position is regarding voting rights of EU nationals resident in other EU countries; I know that they are allowed to vote in local elections and also in European elections but (with the exception of the special UK/Eire arrangements which pre-date the EU) not in national elections.
> 
> ...



I'm not clear on what you mean.

I'm talking about this country and the referendum. Not about what other countries in EU do.

As far as I know their was nothing about being in EU to stop the government of this country allowing EU nationals from other countries resident here ( that is on the electoral list) to vote in a referendum.

Therefore , if I'm right on that, then it was a political decision to not allow that. Being in EU had nothing to do with it. EU would not stop this.

So if that was the case do you think it was wrong to not give EU nationals from other countries resident here a vote in the 2016 referendum?


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## andysays (Dec 7, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> I'm not clear on what you mean.
> 
> I'm talking about this country and the referendum. Not about what other countries in EU do.
> 
> ...


I've already said, more than once, that I'm in favour of the Labour party proposal to allow *all* foreign nationals resident in the UK the right to vote in *all* UK national elections. I'm less keen on an argument which suggests that some foreign nationals should be given the right to vote in a particular national election as some sort of one off, but since Cameron didn't consult me before calling the referendum, my views regarding the 2016 referendum aren't especially important now.


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## Gramsci (Dec 7, 2019)

andysays said:


> I've already said, more than once, that I'm in favour of the Labour party proposal to allow *all* foreign nationals resident in the UK the right to vote in *all* UK national elections. I'm less keen on an argument which suggests that some foreign nationals should be given the right to vote in a particular national election as some sort of one off, but since Cameron didn't consult me before calling the referendum, my views regarding the 2016 referendum aren't especially important now.



This isn't an answer to a straightforward question.


----------



## Gramsci (Dec 7, 2019)

andysays said:


> I've already said, more than once, that I'm in favour of the Labour party proposal to allow *all* foreign nationals resident in the UK the right to vote in *all* UK national elections. I'm less keen on an argument which suggests that some foreign nationals should be given the right to vote in a particular national election as some sort of one off, but since Cameron didn't consult me before calling the referendum, my views regarding the 2016 referendum aren't especially important now.



I see in previous post you say the 2016 referendum was equivalent to a national election.

Which it is not.

So from this convoluted answer to my straightforward question I work out that your answer to my  question is no. That EU citizens resident here and on  the electoral list should not have had a vote in the 2016 referendum.

Them being "foreign" nationals. Despite living here and making a life here they are "foreign". Some for decades of living here.


----------



## Gramsci (Dec 7, 2019)

Just been explaining to my partner she can't vote in this general election despite it all being about Brexit.

If you are an EU national resident here the fact that  Boris has turned this into an election about Brexit is really frustrating when you have no say.

Scary as well when an EU national who would like to vote Labour hears people on radio say they will vote Tory because Boris "will get the job done" even though they have always been Labour voters.

I really hate this country sometimes.

Fortunately my local area is pro Labour and Remain ( Lambeth in inner London) So don't hear that kind of shit where I live.


----------



## seeformiles (Dec 7, 2019)

My German mother - who has lived and worked in the UK since 1964 - has, after 3 months’ uncertainty and bureaucracy, been granted indefinite leave to remain. It was touch and go for a bit (& she was seriously worried about deportation) but thank you to the Home Office for making her feel welcome at last. She said that she was appalled at the Windrush scandal but (teutonically pragmatic as she is) had a plan B to move in with her sister in Nuremberg if it all went wrong. A shit way to treat anyone.


----------



## Gramsci (Dec 8, 2019)

Looking for advice on using the EU Exit ID app.

My partner could not get it to download and work.

The only thing I have worked out is that her old but working Nokia One does not have NFC capability.

Using the ‘EU Exit: ID Document Check’ app

 Tried on my phone, as advice says one can use a friend's phone. But could not get past tasking photo of passport. Keeps saying already completed. But I think the NFC was not turned on in my phone. I have Nokia 6.

The Android system on both phones should work. According to the advice. 

Never heard of NFC before.


----------



## MickiQ (Dec 8, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> Looking for advice on using the EU Exit ID app.
> 
> My partner could not get it to download and work.
> 
> ...


Near Field Communication, it's the same technology that makes contactless cards work, In your phone it's used for things like GooglePay and ApplePay
Can't imagine why it would be necessary for something like this though.


----------



## 2hats (Dec 8, 2019)

It's used to verify the biometric passport details. I've used the Android app successfully for a couple of friends on recent Samsung Galaxy Note hardware.


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 8, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> Just been explaining to my partner she can't vote in this general election despite it all being about Brexit.
> 
> If you are an EU national resident here the fact that  Boris has turned this into an election about Brexit is really frustrating when you have no say.
> 
> ...


In Portugal EU citizens can vote but only if they show proof of their right to stay ie residence permit or citizenship


----------



## Celyn (Dec 8, 2019)

andysays said:


> That's a good point which I'd forgotten. Does that apply specifically to EU citizens, or is it everyone resident in Scotland?
> 
> And out of interest, can EU citizens vote in MSP elections?


I think it was because the independence referendum was treated in the same way as council elections for organisation purposes therefore the voting rights were the same as those for local elections.


----------



## Gramsci (Dec 8, 2019)

2hats said:


> It's used to verify the biometric passport details. I've used the Android app successfully for a couple of friends on recent Samsung Galaxy Note hardware.



I think on my Nokia 6 I had NFC turned off. As I don't use my phone to pay for things.

As you say its about putting ones phone next to passport to verify passport details.

Took me a while to work this out.

So the government assumes one has latest phone with NFC enabled.

As not everyone changes their phone every year this is a drawback to the app to say the least. 

Whoever dreamed this app up assumed everyone upgrades to a new mobile on a regular basis.

I work with people who don't. Like me buy a mobile in local market and use it until it breaks.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Dec 8, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> I think on my Nokia 6 I had NFC turned off. As I don't use my phone to pay for things.
> 
> As you say its about putting ones phone next to passport to verify passport details.
> 
> ...


Also it won't work with any iPhones, which have NFC but do not make it available to third-party apps. It was never going to be made available yet the government said it definitely would be.


----------



## andysays (Dec 9, 2019)

Celyn said:


> I think it was because the independence referendum was treated in the same way as council elections for organisation purposes therefore the voting rights were the same as those for local elections.


I don't think DexterTCN will be pleased to learn they were legally considered mere 'local' elections...


----------



## flypanam (Dec 9, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> I think on my Nokia 6 I had NFC turned off. As I don't use my phone to pay for things.
> 
> As you say its about putting ones phone next to passport to verify passport details.
> 
> ...


When we applied we found it much easier to go through the website, as when I scanned my passport (Irish) it didn't recognise it as such.


----------



## Gramsci (Dec 9, 2019)

flypanam said:


> When we applied we found it much easier to go through the website, as when I scanned my passport (Irish) it didn't recognise it as such.



how did you do that?

My partner was starting on the website and then it said download app to scan / photo your passport etc.


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## flypanam (Dec 12, 2019)

Sorry here Apply to the EU Settlement Scheme (settled and pre-settled status)


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## ska invita (Dec 17, 2019)

To my mind the biggest, most meaningful announcement by BJ so far has been the new department of immigration and borders or whatever the fuck they've decided to call it.
Johnson's plans to create new immigration department could expand hostile environment, experts warn
Should strike the fear intended by it

There's been zero addressing the potential deportation of Eu citizens thus far for BJ since he succeeded Theresa May apart from some empty hot air lies on the subject, in fact as meaningful a thing we have to go on is Rees Mogg last year giving it
Rees-Mogg: EU nationals will have no right to stay
...ie. we're booting everyone out.

I still genuinely hope that when faced with the reality of the situation come 2021 this clearly racist cabal will back down and give everyone a let off, but the signs remain terrible for those on the sharp end. This new department is one to watch for sure.


----------



## Gramsci (Dec 23, 2019)

ska invita said:


> To my mind the biggest, most meaningful announcement by BJ so far has been the new department of immigration and borders or whatever the fuck they've decided to call it.
> Johnson's plans to create new immigration department could expand hostile environment, experts warn
> Should strike the fear intended by it
> 
> ...



Read the independent article.

What irritates me is the way the Home Office is criticised. Its a though the hostile environment was due to poor bureaucracy or poor management on part to the home office.

Giving migrants a hard time is what the Home Office was asked to do by May. The hostile environment isn't a management issue that can be dealt with by new structures.

In fact the Home Office has been working efficiently. Its put in place the hostile environment that May wanted. So its doing the job it was meant to do.

Setting up a new department isn't going to change anything. Immigration policy is a political issue.

I don't like the way it ends up being written about as though its something that can be improved with better organisation and management. This is treating it like it was supplying a service like electricity. Its depoliticising it.

None of this bodes well for those living here who aren't British.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 23, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> What irritates me is the way the Home Office is criticised. Its a though the hostile environment was due to poor bureaucracy or poor management on part to the home office.
> 
> Giving migrants a hard time is what the Home Office was asked to do by May.



Won't somebody think of the home office? No. They've killed people with this hostile environment shit. They're culpable. Fuck them.


----------



## DexterTCN (Dec 23, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> Won't somebody think of the home office? No. They've killed people with this hostile environment shit. They're culpable. Fuck them.


It's not relevant though.  The Home Office is a slave to the tories.

People need re-assurance, answers, options.  People are being deported.

Imagine being concerned that you could be deported...how much could that fuck up your life.

(not directed at you)


----------



## ska invita (Jan 8, 2020)

I think that's basically the end of that in regards law. Bullshit reassurances from Johnson were obviously lies. Possibly there might yet be an appeal process, but it's inevitable many will fall through that system.


----------



## Gramsci (Feb 12, 2020)

101 year old Italian man living here for decades found the wonderful app didnt work for people over 100.









						Home Office tells man, 101, his parents must confirm ID
					

Request caused by apparent tech glitch came when Italian Giovanni Palmiero applied to stay in UK post-Brexit




					www.theguardian.com
				




Then found and this is so shit:



> The Home Office then accepted the mistake and took Palmiero’s identity details over the phone. Last Thursday he was told he could resume his application as a 101-year-old.
> *He was then asked to provide proof of residence for five years in the country, even though he has been in the UK for 54 years[/*QUOTE]


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## Gramsci (Feb 12, 2020)

My partner had in the end to go to the Spanish Embassy to get help to apply for settled status.  Her goverment has been really helpful.

Unlike my government. Im ashamed of this country. Institutionalised anti immigrant bureaucracy is now just how life is in modern brexit UK. A great step forward.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Feb 12, 2020)

Gramsci said:


> 101 year old Italian man living here for decades found the wonderful app didnt work for people over 100.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



He looks pretty good for 101 I'll give him that.


----------



## T & P (Mar 2, 2020)

Far from me to ever want to say anything positive about Brexit or the government’s handling of it, but to my surprise there were no snags with my application for settled status last week. Well, apart from the fact that I wasn’t aware they had finally launched the app for Apple phones as they haven’t publicised it much, if at all.

I was fearing Spain’s two-surname naming customs might cause a failure, as I sometimes go by first name + 1st surname only and sometimes the two surnames (something Gramsci ’s partner might be familiar with), but the app had the common sense to ask if I was known by any other name combinations, so at least they’d prepared for that.

Then again I’ve been here for 25+ years and fully employed and registered with the electoral roll from the off, so it’d have been fucking pisspoor if they’d deemed extra checks were needed before granting me settled status. And yet it is happening to countless other EU nationals who’ve also been here many years


----------



## Gramsci (Mar 2, 2020)

T & P said:


> Far from me to ever want to say anything positive about Brexit or the government’s handling of it, but to my surprise there were no snags with my application for settled status last week. Well, apart from the fact that I wasn’t aware they had finally launched the app for Apple phones as they haven’t publicised it much, if at all.
> 
> I was fearing Spain’s two-surname naming customs might cause a failure, as I sometimes go by first name + 1st surname only and sometimes the two surnames (something Gramsci ’s partner might be familiar with), but the app had the common sense to ask if I was known by any other name combinations, so at least they’d prepared for that.
> 
> Then again I’ve been here for 25+ years and fully employed and registered with the electoral roll from the off, so it’d have been fucking pisspoor if they’d deemed extra checks were needed before granting me settled status. And yet it is happening to countless other EU nationals who’ve also been here many years



The Spanish two surnames. No one in this country can pronounce my partners correctly. Including me.

Mt partner said everything went ok at Embassy when they did it for her.

Im concerned that she didnt get a confirmation in writing. Did you get confirmation?

She reckons she is ok. Im , as a Brit , a bit wary that its all fine.

Im concerned she is only just within the five years required.

Not having an ID card saying settled status does concern me.

BTW the Spanish government is making sure its going to look after its citizens here. So if you have any problems in future Id say contact them. Does not matter how long you've lived here.


----------



## T & P (Mar 2, 2020)

Gramsci said:


> The Spanish two surnames. No one in this country can pronounce my partners correctly. Including me.
> 
> Mt partner said everything went ok at Embassy when they did it for her.
> 
> ...


Yes, I got an email confirmation that came with a PDF attachment of an official letter from the government confirming I’ve been given indefinite leave to remain. Obviously I’ll be saving copies of that letter in various places and printing a paper copy. It still says it constitutes no ‘proof’ of my status though.

thanks for the tip about the Spanish embassy being helpful- good to know.


----------



## Gramsci (Mar 2, 2020)

T & P said:


> Yes, I got an email confirmation that came with a PDF attachment of an official letter from the government confirming I’ve been given indefinite leave to remain. Obviously I’ll be saving copies of that letter in various places and printing a paper copy. It still says it constitutes no ‘proof’ of my status though.
> 
> thanks for the tip about the Spanish embassy being helpful- good to know.



The reason Im concerned is what happened to acquaintance of mine down the road. She had a British passport. It ran out so she went to get it renewed. Which she thought would be straightforward. They came back asking her for more evidence she had a right to a British passport. Fortunately her Father was one of those people who kept all old documents so she got her new British passport eventually. She did lose the holiday she had paid for. Her Father was non EU.

She got caught up in the "Hostile Environment". You think your ok resident here and then they change the regulations. 

A piece of physical evidence to say your status here would help imo. 

But this just goes to show that ones status in this country is not to be taken as a given. She thought she was ok already having a British passport..


----------



## T & P (Mar 2, 2020)

Gramsci said:


> The reason Im concerned is what happened to acquaintance of mine down the road. She had a British passport. It ran out so she went to get it renewed. Which she thought would be straightforward. They came back asking her for more evidence she had a right to a British passport. Fortunately her Father was one of those people who kept all old documents so she got her new British passport eventually. She did lose the holiday she had paid for. Her Father was non EU.
> 
> She got caught up in the "Hostile Environment". You think your ok resident here and then they change the regulations.
> 
> ...


From what people have told me during the last three years, getting UK citizenship is a lot harder and more complex than settled status. The latter is for many quick and straightforward, but I remain a Spanish/ EU citizen. Whereas theoretically they cannot ever kick settled EU citizens out, I fear they might do so for such things as relatively minor  criminal offences (possession of class-A drugs for personal use, affray etc).

I would prefer the extra safety net of dual citizenship but can’t be arsed with the ludicrous OTT test, paperwork demands or £1.2k costs.


----------



## T & P (Mar 2, 2020)

This is the letter btw...


----------



## ska invita (Apr 16, 2020)

some good news I think in the figures published today








						Scheme for EU citizens to stay in UK draws 3.4m applications
					

Government close to target figure, but researchers still fear citizens may be missed out




					www.theguardian.com
				



more than i was expecting considering earlier numbers and looming brexit deadlines

though that is still at least 400,000 not applied < still a massive number
and they've got that number by not giving 41% of applicants the 5 years settled status, whether they should've had it or not, so still insecurities to come


----------



## ska invita (Jul 20, 2020)

Some interesting details in here








						UK urges EU countries to ensure Britons living abroad can stay after Brexit
					

Government launches multimillion pound campaign to reach 1m British citizens in EU




					www.theguardian.com
				




Including that the right to permanently remain process for Brits in France will only open for registration in October.

Similar worries about people falling through the cracks, especially the elderly


----------



## wemakeyousoundb (Jul 23, 2020)

ska invita said:


> some good news I think in the figures published today
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Applied the day after that post and finally got my positive reply just now, so with lockdown delays only 3 months and 1 week.


----------



## ska invita (May 21, 2021)

Whats interesting about the stories of EU citizens being hassled, detained and even taken to detention centres is this comment:



> Colin Yeo, an immigration barrister and author of the Free Movement blog, said: “This is just how borders work and this has been happening to everyone else from outside the EU and is now just being applied to EU citizens.











						UK like an ‘enemy state’ to EU nationals detained by Border Force
					

Confused over regulations, Home Office border staff meet legitimate visitors and workers with suspicion




					www.theguardian.com
				




...except we're talking about people - over 4 million - who have been given some kind of "settled status" in the UK but can't prove it. Seems that there is no register for Border Control to even check who is on that register? Incredible if that is the case.



> Among the other cases is that of Antonio, a Spanish airline worker who was made to wait for 45 minutes at Gatwick while border officials tried to decide if he was lying when he told them he had pre-settled status.
> 
> He said: “My passport was not associated with the settled status. When I told them that is because I applied using my ID card which was perfectly acceptable to the Home Office, they told me that ID cards are no longer acceptable at the border.”


Suggests maybe they can look it up eventaully, only if you applied using a passport as ID. ??

 At the moment no one is even travelling because of Covid restrictions. This better be teething problems, but with the May-Patel tag team in charge....


----------



## klang (May 21, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Whats interesting about the stories of EU citizens being hassled, detained and even taken to detention centres is this comment:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yesterday I had to prove my settled status for the third time to a company I do occ work for. Mainly the company's fault as their HR keeps fucking up / losing data, and only takes five minutes to get the code to prove the status, but still, it's a faff, and it's not nice to get periodic threatening emails. 3 times in the last 6 months ffs.
I've been working for this company for 20 years.


----------



## ska invita (Jun 21, 2021)

Time to bump this thread with a week or so to go...










						130,000 EU citizens on UK benefits yet to apply for settled status, leak suggests
					

Scheme closes in nine days, with many still at risk of losing access to healthcare, jobs and homes




					www.theguardian.com
				




Scary figure, suggests real numbers affected much bigger (as won't be claiming)

eta 
worth adding some 300,000 have applied but havent been given a status in time
IIRC 3 million + havent been given the shitter no-benefits pre-settled status


----------



## T & P (Jun 23, 2021)

The true ugliness of how this country’s government (and tragically, growing  segments of the population) have come to view and treat decent, law-abiding, positive contribution-making foreign nationals in this country since the Brexit referendum is becoming more apparent by the day









						EU citizens in UK face 28-day notice if they miss settled status deadline
					

Tens of thousands to be issued with warnings to submit applications for post-Brexit scheme or risk losing rights




					www.theguardian.com
				




Things will undoubtedly only get worse for many EU nationals and their families, as well as British nationals living in the Continent. I know right wing Brexiteers don’t give a flying fuck about foreigners in the first place, but I hope all those left wing people who saw fit to vote Leave will eventually start considering whether the symbolic and ultimately pointless black eye they gave to the big bad EU was really worth significantly fucking up the lives and wellbeing of millions of ordinary, decent people across Europe. Not to mention removing the right of freely move to, settle in and work across an entire continent from countless millions of present and future British citizens- a right that most other people on Earth could only dream of.

But hey, I’m sure it was all worth it.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 23, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Time to bump this thread with a week or so to go...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That article states that there are 820,000 EU citizens in the U.K. in receipt of benefits. That is excluding Irish nationals. And whilst a large chunk the 820k will be in receipt of child benefit and nothing more, articles such as this are not going to dissuade many people that Brexit is a good idea.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 23, 2021)

How many more EU nationals in UK than previously thought?

5.6 million (non-Irish) applications in so far, almost double the figure of the official estimate of how many EU citizens were living in the U.K.

We are often told that EU citizens have fled the U.K. since Brexit, if that is true then how many were living here before June 2016?


----------



## Supine (Jun 23, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> We are often told that EU citizens have fled the U.K. since Brexit, if that is true then how many were living here before June 2016?



Does it matter?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 23, 2021)

Supine said:


> Does it matter?



If you wish to understand why Brexit happened, yes.
The OP states 3.5m non-Irish EU citizens in the U.K., that was the official figure. The lived experience of many was that figure was massively under the true figure, which would appear to be around 20% of all working age people in the U.K. The perception was that this huge level of immigration was suppressing wages, every tradesperson saw this, as did everyone working in hospitality. Yet the liberal ‘metropolitan elite’ were saying that this either didn’t matter or was simply not true. The result is that people didn’t trust remain as their stance on this was a bare faced lie, one which could be seen daily by millions with their own eyes and depleted wage packets. So they voted leave.

Whether that matters to you or not is your call.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 23, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> How many more EU nationals in UK than previously thought?
> 
> 5.6 million (non-Irish) applications in so far, almost double the figure of the official estimate of how many EU citizens were living in the U.K.
> 
> We are often told that EU citizens have fled the U.K. since Brexit, if that is true then how many were living here before June 2016?


If correct, we can be certain of one thing; the UK's hollowed out, neoliberal state was incapable to recognising and recording the entry of EU citizens into the country, labour market or welfare system.


----------



## Spymaster (Jun 23, 2021)

brogdale said:


> If correct, we can be certain of one thing; the UK's hollowed out, neoliberal state was incapable to recognising and recording the entry of EU citizens into the country, labour market or welfare system.


Yes, but that was as a result of adhering to a set of circumstances imposed by EU membership.

#benefitsofbrexit


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 23, 2021)

brogdale said:


> If correct, we can be certain of one thing; the UK's hollowed out, neoliberal state was incapable to recognising and recording the entry of EU citizens into the country, labour market or welfare system.




The system was purposefully set up to be unable to do that.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 23, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Yes, but that was as a result of adhering to a set of circumstances imposed by EU membership.
> 
> #benefitsofbrexit


Interesting response.
I wasn't aware that the FoM provisions precluded member states from recording nationalities of those entering the workforce/welfare system, but if you know better, I'll stand corrected.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 23, 2021)

For instance, last year the Commons Library produced this report on NHS staff and appeared to present the figure of 67k of workers that were nationals of other EU member states. If that were possible, why not across the wider economy?


----------



## Yossarian (Jun 23, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> That article states that there are 820,000 EU citizens in the U.K. in receipt of benefits. That is excluding Irish nationals. And whilst a large chunk the 820k will be in receipt of child benefit and nothing more, articles such as this are not going to dissuade many people that Brexit is a good idea.





> 5.6 million (non-Irish) applications in so far, almost double the figure of the official estimate of how many EU citizens were living in the U.K.



Big question there is why only a relatively small proportion of EU residents in the UK seem to be collecting the benefits they're entitled to - the government clearly needs to do more to reach out to these people.


----------



## andysays (Jun 23, 2021)

brogdale said:


> If correct, we can be certain of one thing; the UK's hollowed out, neoliberal state was incapable to recognising and recording the entry of EU citizens into the country, labour market or welfare system.


I get the point you're making about the hollowed out nature of the neoliberalism state but, in addition to Spymaster's point, isn't it actually the case that there was no way of keeping meaningful records, because the whole notion of "free movement" means that people originating in one EU country could work in any other country in exactly the same way as citizens of that country, without being on a list?

So any idea of numbers could only ever be an estimate, was always likely to be an underestimate, and was in fact open to deliberate manipulation if the government saw such manipulation as in its interests and in the interests of capital.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 23, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> Big question there is why only a relatively small proportion of EU residents in the UK seem to be collecting the benefits they're entitled to - the government clearly needs to do more to reach out to these people.



Quite probably, my step mum collects her UK pension, guess many of the >5million either are too young for pensions, don't have kids, or don't have kids in the UK (even though AFAIK they can claim CB for kids not in the UK).


----------



## Raheem (Jun 23, 2021)

andysays said:


> I get the point you're making about the hollowed out nature of the neoliberalism state but, in addition to Spymaster's point, isn't it actually the case that there was no way of keeping meaningful records, because the whole notion of "free movement" means that people originating in one EU country could work in any other country in exactly the same way as citizens of that country, without being on a list?


That's not how it works in France or Italy, for example.


----------



## Flavour (Jun 23, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Interesting response.
> I wasn't aware that the FoM provisions precluded member states from recording nationalities of those entering the workforce/welfare system, but if you know better, I'll stand corrected.



Member States all have their own regimes regarding the registration of foreign nationals, the UK has always been particularly lax in this regard (no ID card for example), whereas in countries like France, Germany, Italy they are mandatory if you want to do basically anything (have a doctor, buy a car, rent a house in your own name, etc)


----------



## brogdale (Jun 23, 2021)

andysays said:


> I get the point you're making about the hollowed out nature of the neoliberalism state but, in addition to Spymaster's point, isn't it actually the case that there was no way of keeping meaningful records, because the whole notion of "free movement" means that people originating in one EU country could work in any other country in exactly the same way as citizens of that country, without being on a list?
> 
> So any idea of numbers could only ever be an estimate, was always likely to be an underestimate, and was in fact open to deliberate manipulation if the government saw such manipulation as in its interests and in the interests of capital.


tbh, I don't really know if what you're saying there is correct or not...that's why I invited anyone with more concrete knowledge about how/why this gap in the state's information occurred.

I understand FoM but don't really know why that might have made recording of (EU member state ) nationality impossible. Certainly the NHS appeared to have an, on the face of it, accurate number of 67k employees from the 27 according to the link I put above.


----------



## Spymaster (Jun 23, 2021)

brogdale said:


> tbh, I don't really know if what you're saying there is correct or not...that's why I invited anyone with more concrete knowledge about how/why this gap in the state's information occurred.
> 
> I understand FoM but don't really know why that might have made recording of (EU member state ) nationality impossible. Certainly the NHS appeared to have an, on the face of it, accurate number of 67k employees from the 27 according to the link I put above.



FoM required people to be able to cross borders with no (or few) cumpulsory checks or records, so any records made would have to be based on them supplying information that they weren't legally required to, especially if they weren't claiming benefits or using the NHS. If people just came over, got a cash in hand  job and rented somewhere to live, how would the government know where they were from?


----------



## Flavour (Jun 23, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> FoM required people to be able to cross borders with no cumpulsory checks or records, so any records made would have to be based on them supplying information that they weren't legally required to, especially if they weren't claiming benefits or using the NHS. If people just came over, got a cash in hand  job and rented somewhere to live, how would the government know where they were from?


The point is that getting a cash in hand job and renting somewhere without being on any state register is/was easier in the UK than in most other Euro countries and this has nothing to do with the EU


----------



## Spymaster (Jun 23, 2021)

Flavour said:


> The point is that getting a cash in hand job and renting somewhere without being on any state register is/was easier in the UK than in most other Euro countries and this has nothing to do with the EU



Only to a point. If the UK was not in the EU, as now, checks would have been made and records taken (visa issuances) on entry. Membership of the EU has hugely increased the number of 'unknown foreign nationals' living in the country.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 23, 2021)

Flavour said:


> The point is that getting a cash in hand job and renting somewhere without being on any state register is/was easier in the UK than in most other Euro countries and this has nothing to do with the EU





Spymaster said:


> Only to a point. If the UK was not in the EU, as now, checks would have been made and records taken (vias issuances) on entry. Membership of the EU has hugely increased the number of 'unknown foreign nationals' living in the country.




When FOM first came in we had that nice Mr Blair in charge, and he took time off from slaughtering Arabs to rush through FOM in to the UK with minimal checks as he wanted the £'s that he could see were to be made by exploiting the poorest workers from the EU. France, Italy, Germany, Spain etc. all held back from even allowing FOM for about 18 months and when they did there were systems in place to check on who was in the country.


----------



## Flavour (Jun 23, 2021)

Didn't FOM come in in 1992 with Maastricht? Hadn't remembered it was Blair


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 23, 2021)

Flavour said:


> Didn't FOM come in in 1992 with Maastricht? Hadn't remembered it was Blair



It was Maastricht that set it in motion, it only came in properly in 2001.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 23, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> FoM required people to be able to cross borders with no (or few) cumpulsory checks or records, so any records made would have to be based on them supplying information that they weren't legally required to, especially if they weren't claiming benefits or using the NHS. If people just came over, got a cash in hand  job and rented somewhere to live, how would the government know where they were from?


Not sure that's right, tbh.
I certainly remember having to show employers my passport (as eligibility to work) as far back as 2007 ish.
Perhaps the Uk state never got round to implementing a system by which they could collate that eligibility data?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 23, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Not sure that's right, tbh.
> I certainly remember having to show employers my passport (as eligibility to work) as far back as 2007 ish.
> Perhaps the Uk state never got round to implementing a system by which they could collate that eligibility data?




An employer didn't have to do anything with the passport though, it was an arse-covering thing in case the worker came from somewhere not in the EU and therefore not worthy of working within the EU.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 23, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> An employer didn't have to do anything with the passport though, it was an arse-covering thing in case the worker came from somewhere not in the EU and therefore not worthy of working within the EU.


Yes; I suppose the crux is was that due to the hollowed state (not bothering) or edict from the supra-state preventing it?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 23, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Yes; I suppose the crux is was that due to the hollowed state (not bothering) or edict from the supra-state preventing it?



Six of one etc., of course the UK being quite influential in setting the pace of the EU.


----------



## Spymaster (Jun 23, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Not sure that's right, tbh.
> I certainly remember having to show employers my passport (as eligibility to work) as far back as 2007 ish.
> Perhaps the Uk state never got round to implementing a system by which they could collate that eligibility data?


"Cash-in-hand" being the operative term there. There'll be shitloads of EU people here effectively working illegally, then a load more who aren't working at all, etc etc ...

Not sure why you're finding it so difficult to accept that EU membership has directly contibuted to fuckloads of people being here that the government know little or nothing about.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 23, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> "Cash-in-hand" being the operative term there. There'll be shitloads of EU people here effectively working illegally, then a load more who aren't working at all, etc etc ...
> 
> Not sure why you're finding it so difficult to accept that EU membership has directly contibuted to fuckloads of people being here that the government know little or nothing about.


I have no problem accepting that supra-state membership and its FoM resulted in citizens of other member states legally having the right to live and work in the UK. My questioning is why the UK state had, apparently, so little grasp on the scale of the immigration.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 23, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Six of one etc., of course the UK being quite influential in setting the pace of the EU.


I can see why it was in the interest of neoliberal capital not to make the scale known.


----------



## andysays (Jun 23, 2021)

Raheem said:


> That's not how it works in France or Italy, for example.


Maybe you could give us some detail about how it works in France or Italy, for example.


----------



## Dystopiary (Jun 23, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> Big question there is why only a relatively small proportion of EU residents in the UK seem to be collecting the benefits they're  entitled to - the government clearly needs to do more to reach out to these people.


There are a lot of British citizens within the UK who aren't collecting the benefits they're entitled to. The benefits system has become so hostile and difficult.

The forgotten unemployed: 300,000 jobless Britons not claiming benefits

That's from over 3 years ago, and doesn't include sick and disability benefits, which are very difficult to get.

I don't want to take this off topic, just to point out that it could be part of a wider problem with the benefit system.


----------



## Dystopiary (Jun 23, 2021)

dp


----------



## andysays (Jun 23, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Not sure that's right, tbh.
> *I certainly remember having to show employers my passport (as eligibility to work) as far back as 2007 ish.*
> Perhaps the Uk state never got round to implementing a system by which they could collate that eligibility data?


This is my recollection as well.

As far as I remember, potential employees were required to prove they had the legal right to work in the UK, which would most often be by showing a passport of any EU (or other qualifying) country.

As far as the (potential) employer was concerned, there was no difference between a UK passport and, say, a Polish passport. There was no need for employers to keep records of how many UK employees they had, how many Polish employees etc. (In fact, some people would probably argue it would be discriminatory to keep such info).

Other countries may have different systems*, such as ID cards, which allow them to collect and compile such info. I've never worked in another EU country, so don't have any experience to offer.

But EU rules around FoM definitely don't/didn't require such info to be collected.

ETA *different pre-existing systems


----------



## andysays (Jun 23, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> An employer didn't have to do anything with the passport though, it was an arse-covering thing in case the worker came from somewhere not in the EU and therefore not worthy of working within the EU.


Again, as far as I remember, they take a photo or scan for the records in case it's needed in future, and then tick the box to say that some valid evidence has been seen.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 23, 2021)

andysays said:


> This is my recollection as well.
> 
> As far as I remember, potential employees were required to prove they had the legal right to work in the UK, which would most often be by showing a passport of any EU (or other qualifying) country.
> 
> ...


Yep.
Just that when the state was the employer, as in the NHS, they appear to have had the figures all along. That suggests that there was no prohibition against collating the data from employers. More likely that successive neoliberal governments decided not to burden capital with the bother or themselves with the administration.


----------



## andysays (Jun 23, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Yep.
> Just that when the state was the employer, as in the NHS, they appear to have had the figures all along. That suggests that there was no prohibition against collating the data from employers. More likely that successive neoliberal governments decided not to burden capital with the bother or themselves with the administration.


Reading the report you linked to, it's unclear (at least to me) whether that info was routinely collected and regularly updated by the NHS, or whether it was deliberately collected as a snapshot picture for a one-off reason like finding out how many staff were EU nationals and might be directly affected by rule changes as a result of Brexit.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 23, 2021)

andysays said:


> Reading the report you linked to, it's unclear (at least to me) whether that info was routinely collected and regularly updated by the NHS, or whether it was deliberately collected as a snapshot picture for a one-off reason like finding out how many staff were EU nationals and might be directly affected by rule changes as a result of Brexit.


Fair point; I hadn't considered that.


----------



## Raheem (Jun 23, 2021)

andysays said:


> Maybe you could give us some detail about how it works in France or Italy, for example.


To work legally in France, you have to register with your town hall within X days of arrival. They give you a form to fill in with a the details the President might want to know about you.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 23, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Fair point; I hadn't considered that.


Looks like they certainly had the NHS workforce nationality data back in June 2016, (when we were an EU member state), so a slightly unclear, evolving picture, rather than a single snapshot, maybe?


----------



## andysays (Jun 23, 2021)

Raheem said:


> To work legally in France, you have to register with your town hall within X days of arrival. They give you a form to fill in with a the details the President might want to know about you.


I'm aware of the existance that, if not the detail; it was something that was discussed when the whole ID card thing was an issue in the UK.

As far as I know, that's a long standing French tradition, and there's a similarly long standing tradition in Britain that we don't have to carry ID cards, register our residence at the local town hall etc. 

But given a diversity of tradition and practice across various EU countries, it seems reasonable to assume that, unless there were specific EU laws requiring standardisation of such practices, each country would continue to operate its traditional system.

(as an aside, it might be interesting to know if such standardisation was ever proposed, and if so, by whom, and to what extent it was opposed)


----------



## andysays (Jun 23, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Looks like they certainly had the NHS workforce nationality data back in June 2016, (when we were an EU member state), so a slightly unclear, evolving picture, rather than a single snapshot, maybe?
> 
> View attachment 274945


It says "recorded" EU nationality.

Given the date of June 2016, I'm going to suggest it's at least possible that they began to focus more attention on this question as a direct result of the referendum result, and that's at least part of the reason why the numbers have gone up - at least some of them are not new people, they're previously uncounted people.


----------



## Raheem (Jun 23, 2021)

andysays said:


> But given a diversity of tradition and practice across various EU countries, it seems reasonable to assume that, unless there were specific EU laws requiring standardisation of such practices, each country would continue to operate its traditional system.



Not necessarily. Each country operates the system of it it choosing, which is why this statement was wrong:



andysays said:


> there was no way of keeping meaningful records, because the whole notion of "free movement" means that people originating in one EU country could work in any other country in exactly the same way as citizens of that country, without being on a list


----------



## andysays (Jun 23, 2021)

Raheem said:


> Not necessarily. Each country operates the system of it it choosing, which is why this statement was wrong:


OK, I'll change my previous statement to "without EU rules relating to FoM meaning that they have to be on a list, although if member states have pre-existing practices involving keeping such lists, we won't now prohibit them from doing so".

This was what I originally meant, but I obviously should have taken into account the general Urban tendency to quibble and nit-pick given even the slightest opportunity.

Happy?


----------



## Raheem (Jun 23, 2021)

No, cos it's not even grammatical now and I can't understand it.

Maybe we can just say that whether or not individual EU countries keep lists of foreigners is up to them, is unaffected by rules on freedom of movement, and they can stop or start doing it anytime they like. That would be accurate.


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## Sue (Jun 23, 2021)

Flavour said:


> Member States all have their own regimes regarding the registration of foreign nationals, the UK has always been particularly lax in this regard (no ID card for example), whereas in countries like France, Germany, Italy they are mandatory if you want to do basically anything (have a doctor, buy a car, rent a house in your own name, etc)


Nah, I lived and worked in France pre-Brexit and went to the doctor, rented a flat, opened a bank account etc just on my UK passport -- never had a carte de sejour though theoretically I was meant to have one. 🤷‍♀️


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## Sue (Jun 23, 2021)

Raheem said:


> To work legally in France, you have to register with your town hall within X days of arrival. They give you a form to fill in with a the details the President might want to know about you.


No idea about now but in pre-Brexit days, I certainly didn't have to do this and neither did anyone i know. And I was there working legally.


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## Pickman's model (Jun 23, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Only to a point. If the UK was not in the EU, as now, checks would have been made and records taken (visa issuances) on entry. Membership of the EU has hugely increased the number of 'unknown foreign nationals' living in the country.


You, for example


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 23, 2021)

brogdale said:


> If correct, we can be certain of one thing; the UK's hollowed out, neoliberal state was incapable to recognising and recording the entry of EU citizens into the country, labour market or welfare system.


Some posters on here would have threatened self immolation in protest of recording EU nationals data


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## Spymaster (Jun 23, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Some posters on here would have threatened self immolation in protest of recording EU nationals data



Absolutely!


----------



## brogdale (Jun 23, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Some posters on here would have threatened self immolation in protest of recording EU nationals data


Quite possibly, but I'm always interested when states don't act like you'd expect them to.


----------



## andysays (Jun 23, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Quite possibly, but I'm always interested when states don't act like you'd expect them to.


I think I'm slightly losing the thread of this conversation now.

Which state(s) isn't (aren't) acting in the way you'd expect and in what way(s)?


----------



## brogdale (Jun 23, 2021)

andysays said:


> I think I'm slightly losing the thread of this conversation now.
> 
> Which state(s) isn't (aren't) acting in the way you'd expect and in what way(s)?


I expect states to have authoritarian proclivities towards enumeration, calibration, recording and data collection. When they don't, and get the estimation of EU nationals in the workforce wrong by 50%, I'm quite interested to explore why and in who's interests that failure was.


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## Raheem (Jun 23, 2021)

Sue said:


> No idea about now but in pre-Brexit days, I certainly didn't have to do this and neither did anyone i know. And I was there working legally.


I went on Google to let you know what French immigration would say about that, but it turns out they actually made the carte de séjour non-compulsory over a decade ago, which I didn't know. There's still things you need it for, though.

Don't think it kills the basic point, though, because France was no less in the EU ten years ago, and residence permits in Italy, for instance, do seem to be still mandatory for EU citizens.

Maybe the weirdest thing is thinking it would be such a great thing to make lists of foreigners in the first place.


----------



## Sue (Jun 23, 2021)

Raheem said:


> I went on Google to let you know what French immigration would say about that, but it turns out they actually made the carte de séjour non-compulsory over a decade ago, which I didn't know. *There's still things you need it for, though.*
> 
> Don't think it kills the basic point, though, because France was no less in the EU ten years ago, and residence permits in Italy, for instance, do seem to be still mandatory for EU citizens.
> 
> Maybe the weirdest thing is thinking it would be such a great thing to make lists of foreigners in the first place.


Like what? Admittedly, I never hired a car (I don't drive) but I certainly did all the other everyday stuff -- like working, paying taxes, renting a flat (paperwork was done with the landlady's notaire), going to the doctor, being treated in hospital -- and was never asked for it. And this was more than 10 years ago too.


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## andysays (Jun 23, 2021)

brogdale said:


> I expect states to have authoritarian proclivities towards enumeration, calibration, recording and data collection. When they don't, and get the estimation of EU nationals in the workforce wrong by 50%, I'm quite interested to explore why and in who's interests that failure was.


Thanks for clarifying, that makes sense now.

I think traditionally the British state has not had the same kind of proclivities as eg France, and there are quite deep rooted feelings about not having to carry ID cards etc (which is not to say that Britain is better or freer, or that authoritarianism isn't manifest in other ways).

I'm still curious about the extent to which other EU countries actively and deliberately collect equivalent info about numbers of workers/residents from other EU countries, because the one vague example anyone has tried to put forward doesn't seem to have held up under even the slightest scrutiny.


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## Boris Sprinkler (Jun 23, 2021)

Census.

Never completed one here. The uk have it on threat of violence don’t they?
But here you can’t do anything without your cpr (like national insurance number), this was given to me when I moved here with a job offer.


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## Maltin (Jun 23, 2021)

andysays said:


> Thanks for clarifying, that makes sense now.
> 
> I think traditionally the British state has not had the same kind of proclivities as eg France, and there are quite deep rooted feelings about not having to carry ID cards etc (which is not to say that Britain is better or freer, or that authoritarianism isn't manifest in other ways).
> 
> I'm still curious about the extent to which other EU countries actively and deliberately collect equivalent info about numbers of workers/residents from other EU countries, because the one vague example anyone has tried to put forward doesn't seem to have held up under even the slightest scrutiny.


In Germany you have to register. I don’t know whether they use it to track other nationals but you are meant to provide your passport as proof of who is registering. 









						The Anmeldung - How to register an address in Berlin
					

This guide shows you how register your address in Berlin. This is how you get a Meldebescheinigung and a tax ID.




					allaboutberlin.com


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## tim (Jun 23, 2021)

Sue said:


> Nah, I lived and worked in France pre-Brexit and went to the doctor, rented a flat, opened a bank account etc just on my UK passport -- never had a carte de sejour though theoretically I was meant to have one. 🤷‍♀️


Me neither, but also got a bank account, probably more easily than I would in the UK

I also spent four years in Italy but was only officially registered for one of them.


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## tim (Jun 23, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Quite possibly, but I'm always interested when states don't act like you'd expect them to.



What would be your expectations of the British state? ID Cards have always been regarded as suspiciously Continental, haven't they?


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## brogdale (Jun 23, 2021)

tim said:


> What would be your expectations of the British state? ID Cards have always been regarded as suspiciously Continental, haven't they?


ID cards, yes...but I would have expected any state that requiring employers to establish nationality as work eligibility to have established the means to collate that data.


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## tim (Jun 23, 2021)

brogdale said:


> ID cards, yes...but I would have expected any state that requiring employers to establish nationality as work eligibility to have established the means to collate that data.


The requirement is a box ticking exercise.

 I can't imagine any British government  being willing to pay Serco  or Capita to set up and mismanage such a complicated and pointless monitoring scheme.


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## ska invita (Jun 23, 2021)

why is everyone talking about this? i missed the point


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## brogdale (Jun 23, 2021)

tim said:


> The requirement is a box ticking exercise.
> 
> I can't imagine any British government  being willing to pay Serco  or Capita to set up and mismanage such a complicated and pointless monitoring scheme.


Hence why it looks like the estimate was 50% of the actual number.
Kind of where I came in...









						Fate of EU citizens in the UK post Brexit
					

Some interesting details in here https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jul/19/uk-urges-eu-countries-to-ensure-britons-living-abroad-can-stay-after-brexit  Including that the right to permanently remain process for Brits in France will only open for registration in October.  Similar worries...




					www.urban75.net


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## andysays (Jun 24, 2021)

brogdale said:


> ID cards, yes...but I would have expected any state that requiring employers to establish nationality as work eligibility to have established the means to collate that data.


OK, here's where I think you're looking at it wrong: employers weren't required to establish nationality, they were required to establish eligibility. 

If someone had a passport from any EU country they were eligible. If they weren't eligible, they didn't become an employee.

There was never any requirement for employers to monitor the nationality of their workers, anymore than to monitor the colour of their eyes.


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## andysays (Jun 24, 2021)

tim said:


> Me neither, but also got a bank account, probably more easily than I would in the UK
> 
> I also spent four years in Italy but was only officially registered for one of them.


My brother spent a few years living in Barcelona and Milan, working as an English teacher  

I'll see if he remembers what he had to do.


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## brogdale (Jun 24, 2021)

andysays said:


> OK, here's where I think you're looking at it wrong: employers weren't required to establish nationality, they were required to establish eligibility.
> 
> If someone had a passport from any EU country they were eligible. If they weren't eligible, they didn't become an employee.
> 
> There was never any requirement for employers to monitor the nationality of their workers, anymore than to monitor the colour of their eyes.


Maybe.
But we are discussing the state’s massive underestimate of the totality of EU member state nationals working in the U.K.


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## andysays (Jun 24, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Maybe.
> But we are discussing the state’s massive underestimate of the totality of EU member state nationals working in the U.K.


So there are maybe two separate things here

1. The fact that accurate numbers were never collected and that any estimating was necessary.

2. The fact that, as recent events have demonstrated, the estimate proved to be so massively wrong.

I'm about to leave for work, but I'll return to the thread later...


----------



## Gramsci (Jun 24, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> If you wish to understand why Brexit happened, yes.
> The OP states 3.5m non-Irish EU citizens in the U.K., that was the official figure. The lived experience of many was that figure was massively under the true figure, which would appear to be around 20% of all working age people in the U.K. The perception was that this huge level of immigration was suppressing wages, every tradesperson saw this, as did everyone working in hospitality. Yet the liberal ‘metropolitan elite’ were saying that this either didn’t matter or was simply not true. The result is that people didn’t trust remain as their stance on this was a bare faced lie, one which could be seen daily by millions with their own eyes and depleted wage packets. So they voted leave.
> 
> Whether that matters to you or not is your call.



My partner is one of those who came here to "suppress" my wages according to you. 

You are talking about people I've worked with for years and also the special person in my life.


----------



## andysays (Jun 24, 2021)

Gramsci said:


> My partner is one of those who came here to "suppress" my wages according to you.
> 
> You are talking about people I've worked with for years and also the special person in my life.


I don't think anyone here on Urban is suggesting that your partner or anyone else came here wanting or planning to suppress wages.

They came here, perfectly reasonably, because they were able to do so, quite possibly because they could earn more money here than in their country of origin, and possibly because they wanted the experience of working in Britain. All of that is perfectly legitimate, but it's also difficult to avoid the conclusion that one consequence of it has been to supress wages, at least in some sectors.

And if it now turns out that there are/were actually about double the number of EU workers in the UK that previous estimates suggested, it become even harder to deny the argument that it's suppressed wages, and that that was the main reason the employer class in the UK was so in favour of FoM, and of expanding the EU to include poorer eastern states.


----------



## Supine (Jun 24, 2021)

andysays said:


> I don't think anyone here on Urban is suggesting that your partner or anyone else came here wanting or planning to suppress wages.
> 
> They came here, perfectly reasonably, because they were able to do so, quite possibly because they could earn more money here than in their country of origin, and possibly because they wanted the experience of working in Britain. All of that is perfectly legitimate, but it's also difficult to avoid the conclusion that one consequence of it has been to supress wages, at least in some sectors.
> 
> And if it now turns out that there are/were actually about double the number of EU workers in the UK that previous estimates suggested, it become even harder to deny the argument that it's suppressed wages, and that that was the main reason the employer class in the UK was so in favour of FoM, and of expanding the EU to include poorer eastern states.



so no empathy then? Send the foreigners home and hope that labour shortages might just put your pay up.


----------



## andysays (Jun 24, 2021)

Supine said:


> so no empathy then? Send the foreigners home and hope that labour shortages might just put your pay up.


Please highlight the bit of my post where I said we should send anyone home


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 24, 2021)

Supine said:


> so no empathy then? Send the foreigners home and hope that labour shortages might just put your pay up.


The only foreigners , and this applies not just in the U.K. but also across the EU, who are going home are those that don’t fill in the paperwork for the country they wish to reside or work in or who don’t want to fill in the paperwork. 
There are some posters on here who have double standards , ie if it’s a Brit abroad they are too arrogant and thick to do the paperwork and actually the EU is the victim , if it’s an EU citizen in the U.K. it’s because they are decent hardworking and therefore they are a victim .


----------



## Gramsci (Jun 24, 2021)

andysays said:


> I don't think anyone here on Urban is suggesting that your partner or anyone else came here wanting or planning to suppress wages.
> 
> They came here, perfectly reasonably, because they were able to do so, quite possibly because they could earn more money here than in their country of origin, and possibly because they wanted the experience of working in Britain. All of that is perfectly legitimate, but it's also difficult to avoid the conclusion that one consequence of it has been to supress wages, at least in some sectors.
> 
> And if it now turns out that there are/were actually about double the number of EU workers in the UK that previous estimates suggested, it become even harder to deny the argument that it's suppressed wages, and that that was the main reason the employer class in the UK was so in favour of FoM, and of expanding the EU to include poorer eastern states.



It this kind of comment that upsets my friends and workmates from EU countries. Your in effect saying you would like to see the back of them. 

Can't say any of my EU friends who've been here for at least several years supported Brexit. But then they didn't get a say in it.


----------



## Gramsci (Jun 24, 2021)

Anyway my partner is hoping, if pandemic ends, to visit family in Spain. She's told me she has done the settled status thing. I'm still worried about her coming back to UK. After what happened to Windrush generation I simply don't trust this government or future governments to not backtrack on settled status. Nor do I trust the settled status system to work properly.


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## brogdale (Jun 24, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> The only foreigners , and this applies not just in the U.K. but also across the EU, who are going home are those that don’t fill in the paperwork for the country they wish to reside or work in or who don’t want to fill in the paperwork.
> There are some posters on here who have double standards , ie if it’s a Brit abroad they are too arrogant and thick to do the paperwork and actually the EU is the victim , if it’s an EU citizen in the U.K. it’s because they are decent hardworking and therefore they are a victim .


No figures to back this up but, anecdotally from news reporting over the last 5 years, there has been coverage of EU member state nationals choosing to leave the UK for reasons other than failure to apply for settled status. Some have explained their decision based upon no longer feeling comfortable or welcome and fear or experience of racism/discrimination.

That said, I agree that we should strive to avoid double standards and demonising UK expats, but there is a distinction between them and EU nationals living/working in the UK and that was the ability to vote in the referendum causing the changed status.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 24, 2021)

brogdale said:


> No figures to back this up but, anecdotally from news reporting over the last 5 years, there has been coverage of EU member state nationals choosing to leave the UK for reasons other than failure to apply for settled status. Some have explained their decision based upon no longer feeling comfortable or welcome and fear or experience of racism/discrimination.
> 
> That said, I agree that we should strive to avoid double standards and demonising UK expats, but there is a distinction between them and EU nationals living/working in the UK and that was the ability to vote in the referendum causing the changed status.


I’m sure that’s the case sometimes for migrant labour but it doesn’t tell the full story at all . On the positive side it’s great to see the take up of residency schemes both in the U.K. and in the EU .


----------



## brogdale (Jun 24, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> I’m sure that’s the case sometimes for migrant labour but it doesn’t tell the full story at all . On the positive side it’s great to see the take up of residency schemes both in the U.K. and in the EU .


That's fair, but I didn't suggest it was the full story; I was just responding to your assertion that _"The only foreigners...who are going home are those that don’t fill in the paperwork for the country they wish to reside or work in or who don’t want to fill in the paperwork."_


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 24, 2021)

brogdale said:


> That's fair, but I didn't suggest it was the full story; I was just responding to your assertion that _"The only foreigners...who are going home are those that don’t fill in the paperwork for the country they wish to reside or work in or who don’t want to fill in the paperwork."_


If you re read the post I was replying to you’ll find the context .


----------



## brogdale (Jun 24, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> If you re read the post I was replying to you’ll find the context .


I was just suggesting that what you were asserting did not accord with anecdotal reporting I had heard.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 24, 2021)

brogdale said:


> I was just suggesting that what you were asserting did not accord with anecdotal reporting I had heard.


Long live anecdotal reporting


----------



## brogdale (Jun 24, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Long live anecdotal reporting


I'd concede the weakness of that if you were backing your assertion with anything other than opinion.


----------



## Supine (Jun 24, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Long live anecdotal reporting



You can have some real evidence if anecdotal isn’t enough



			https://s3-eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/jotwpublic-prod-storage-1cxo1dnrmkg14/uploads/sites/4/2021/05/IMA-report-European-citizens-concerns-after-Brexit-1.pdf


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 24, 2021)

Supine said:


> You can have some real evidence if anecdotal isn’t enough
> 
> 
> 
> https://s3-eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/jotwpublic-prod-storage-1cxo1dnrmkg14/uploads/sites/4/2021/05/IMA-report-European-citizens-concerns-after-Brexit-1.pdf


Thanks I’ll read that tomorrow


----------



## wemakeyousoundb (Jun 25, 2021)

anectdotal:
wish I could go visit my mum back in france once it is pandemiacally allowed
worried I'll get dragged into some barracks for checks for hours on end on the way back in here


Spoiler



maybe I am a bit paranoid


----------



## andysays (Jun 25, 2021)

Gramsci said:


> It this kind of comment that upsets my friends and workmates from EU countries. Your in effect saying you would like to see the back of them.
> 
> Can't say any of my EU friends who've been here for at least several years supported Brexit. But then they didn't get a say in it.



OK, I'm sorry you feel that way, and I hope I understand why, but you're actually misunderstanding what I and others are saying.

No one here has posted that we wanted to see the back of your partner or any of the other EU workers currently here.

And as we know, there is a mechanism for all EU workers who wish to remain in Britain to do so. 5.6 million people have currently applied, according to the story which has sparked this recent discussion, because the number who have applied is far greater than the previous estimate of how many were actually here.

I hope your partner is one of them, and that they are successful in getting settled status, if that's what they want, just as I hope that all of the other 5.6 million get it.

ETA and I see from your later post that she has applied for settled status, though you don't make clear if it's been granted yet. I'm glad for you both and I hope that means you can continue your life together with a bit less of the stress and uncertain this situation must have caused you.


----------



## Winot (Jun 25, 2021)

andysays said:


> but it's also difficult to avoid the conclusion that one consequence of it has been to supress wages, at least in some sectors.


Interesting research reported here, finding it likely that there was some wage suppression for low paid workers, but that it was “relatively small”:



> it looked at the period from 1993 to 2017, over which time average earnings for the lowest-paid rose by 55%. Using economic modelling, they estimated that - if there hadn't been European migration into the UK - that rise would have been around 5% higher


----------



## andysays (Jun 25, 2021)

Winot said:


> Interesting research reported here, finding it likely that there was some wage suppression for low paid workers, but that it was “relatively small”:


That's an interesting article, which I don't have time to read properly right now, but I'll try to return to later.

Two initial off the top of my head reactions

1. What seems like a "relatively small" suppression for those compiling the report might not be viewed as relatively small and, by implication, relatively unimportant to those actually experiencing it.

2. That estimate is only (can only) be an estimate, which is acknowledged in the article. And as we've seen recently, estimates in this area can be wildly out. Maybe if the MAC had more accurate figures for the number of EU workers actually here, they might have concluded that the suppression effect was actually greater


----------



## Gramsci (Jun 25, 2021)

I've lived my whole adult life working alongside immigrants and living in area with lot of immigrants and those whose parents came here so second generation. 

I don't make distinction between British workers and immigrant workers in my daily life.


----------



## Sue (Jun 25, 2021)

Gramsci said:


> I've lived my whole adult life working alongside immigrants and living in area with lot of immigrants and those whose parents came here so second generation.


I'm not sure what your point is. This is surely true for many of us?


----------



## flypanam (Jun 25, 2021)

Gramsci said:


> Anyway my partner is hoping, if pandemic ends, to visit family in Spain. She's told me she has done the settled status thing. I'm still worried about her coming back to UK. After what happened to Windrush generation I simply don't trust this government or future governments to not backtrack on settled status. Nor do I trust the settled status system to work properly.


Understandable, my wife and I are heading to Canada to see her family for Xmas. She’s coming back ten days after me. She’s practicing finding her details on the gov.Uk site when border officials demand it, which will be stressful.

I think littleseb has had to do this regularly for employers


----------



## Gramsci (Jun 25, 2021)

Sue said:


> I'm not sure what your point is. This is surely true for many of us?



I don't spend my day thinking these immigrants I work and live alongside are suppressing my wages.

Which is what this thread about EU citizens has turned into.


----------



## tim (Jun 25, 2021)

Gramsci said:


> I don't spend my day thinking these immigrants I work and live alongside are suppressing my wages.
> 
> Which is what this thread about EU citizens has turned into.


Exactly, your boss is suppressing your wages not your co-workers.


----------



## andysays (Jun 25, 2021)

Gramsci said:


> I don't spend my day thinking these immigrants I work and live alongside are suppressing my wages.
> 
> Which is what this thread about EU citizens has turned into.


Maybe it would help if you read what people are actually writing on the thread rather than responding to what you imagine they're writing.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 25, 2021)

Sue said:


> I'm not sure what your point is. This is surely true for many of us?


Often a competition about who lives and works in the most multi cultural area . Add to that being in a remain area and it’s a full house .


----------



## Supine (Jun 25, 2021)

andysays said:


> Maybe it would help if you read what people are actually writing on the thread rather than responding to what you imagine they're writing.



This is a thread about the fate of EU nationals living in the UK. When people talk about wages being suppressed, more EU nationals living here than expected, or capital exploiting foreigners for cheap wages it feeds into the narrative of EU nationals not being welcome.

You and others may not mean to be doing it, but it comes across to me as too many foreigners are affecting your quality of life. It shows a lack of empathy for real people who are negatively affected by the Brexit some urbs have voted for. Just my 2p.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 25, 2021)

Supine said:


> This is a thread about the fate of EU nationals living in the UK. When people talk about wages being suppressed, more EU nationals living here than expected, or capital exploiting foreigners for cheap wages it feeds into the narrative of EU nationals not being welcome.
> 
> You and others may not mean to be doing it, but it comes across to me as too many foreigners are affecting your quality of life. It shows a lack of empathy for real people who are negatively affected by the Brexit some urbs have voted for. Just my 2p.


Apologies on my part; I have certainly discussed the government's underestimate of EU27 member nationals living/working in the UK and really didn't think through how that might make fellow posters feel.

FWIW, I was primarily interested in exploring what lay behind the governmental failure and, personally would have liked them not to bother at all. But if they were determined to produce an estimate, it was a pretty shoddy job to be so far out.


----------



## klang (Jun 25, 2021)

flypanam said:


> Understandable, my wife and I are heading to Canada to see her family for Xmas. She’s coming back ten days after me. She’s practicing finding her details on the gov.Uk site when border officials demand it, which will be stressful.
> 
> I think littleseb has had to do this regularly for employers


takes only a few minutes to get the code to prove settled status, but gets annoying the third time around. i find it astonishing how sloppily my employer's hr seems to deal with such an existential bit of paperwork, considering their workforce is largely made up of non-british nationals.

if I had to prove my status at the uk border i'd find it very difficult as I don't have a functioning smart phone.


----------



## Gramsci (Jun 26, 2021)

Supine said:


> This is a thread about the fate of EU nationals living in the UK. When people talk about wages being suppressed, more EU nationals living here than expected, or capital exploiting foreigners for cheap wages it feeds into the narrative of EU nationals not being welcome.
> 
> You and others may not mean to be doing it, but it comes across to me as too many foreigners are affecting your quality of life. It shows a lack of empathy for real people who are negatively affected by the Brexit some urbs have voted for. Just my 2p.



Thanks Supine You've put it better than I could.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 26, 2021)

Supine said:


> This is a thread about the fate of EU nationals living in the UK. When people talk about wages being suppressed, more EU nationals living here than expected, or capital exploiting foreigners for cheap wages it feeds into the narrative of EU nationals not being welcome.
> 
> You and others may not mean to be doing it, but it comes across to me as too many foreigners are affecting your quality of life. It shows a lack of empathy for real people who are negatively affected by the Brexit some urbs have voted for. Just my 2p.


So are you saying that purely because this thread is about the fate of EU nationals living in the UK that the  issues you mention ie capital exploiting  foreigners for cheap labour should be posted on other threads ?


----------



## andysays (Jun 26, 2021)

Supine said:


> You and others may not mean to be doing it, but it comes across to me as too many foreigners are affecting your quality of life. It shows a lack of empathy for real people who are negatively affected by the Brexit some urbs have voted for. Just my 2p.


Not only do I not mean to do it, I am literally not doing what you've accused me of doing, as demonstrated by your failure to find anything in any of my posts which backs up your previous claim about "sending the foreigners home".

Maybe you should consider the possibility that how it comes across to you may (for perfectly understandable and legitimate reasons) have at least as much to do with you as with what I've actually said.

But just to repeat, although the influx of millions of EU workers into Britain may have enabled the suppression of wages, those EU workers are not responsible or to blame for that. The responsibility lies entirely with the employers who have used that situation to suppress wages, and successive governments who have encouraged them.

And, especially because I too live and work alongside many EU and other non-UK nationals, I have absolutely no desire to send anyone back, I encourage all who wish to stay to use the mechanisms available to do so, and I will support by collective action the rights of those I work with and others to stay if that right is taken away.

But don't try to suggest that we shouldn't discuss this issue because it show a lack of empathy - it's that sort of refusal to listen to people's genuine concerns about some of the effects of such large scale movement that has led us to the divided position we're in now.


----------



## ska invita (Jun 26, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> So are you saying that purely because this thread is about the fate of EU nationals living in the UK that the  issues you mention ie capital exploiting  foreigners for cheap labour should be posted on other threads ?


I think the right thread for discussion is one like this one about Protectionism








						Protectionism
					

Considering recent world political events Im curious if anyone has any thoughts about economic protectionism...as an economic policy and inevitably with its relation to nationalism.  Seems to me its a policy that divides both the left and the right:  On the one hand  some parts of 'the right'...




					www.urban75.net
				



...which I wish there was more discussion of (everywhere, not just urban), as it seems the key theoretical issue of the day. Id really like to read a convincing contemporary left-protectionist argument grounded in current conditions. Even old ones are hard to come by.

In short my position matches that put forward on that thread links iirc by Engels and echoed by Militant - protectionism does nothing for the conditions of the global working class. And on balance I think its worse for the wc, as the price of protectionism is Nationalism, and we can see the growing global toxic toll and distortions of nationalism daily, namely leading to neo-fascism and a degradation of democracy.
Conversely freedom of movement creates a folk-internationalism and plurality  which eats into the edifices of Nationalism and Conservativism. Its why the far right hate it so much.

I dont particularly care about the British working class, I care about the global working class - that happens to include Britain too of course.

The wage suppression argument in the UK is far from watertight anyhow, on many levels.
Giving up on friends and familiy to live in a foreign country on a minimum wage jobs in an expensive city isnt exactly an aspiration for anyone from the EU. How common is it (or was it)?

Many EU workers work in the state sector - take the NHS for example. There are 50,000 unfilled posts in the NHS perpetually - that doesnt seem to create an increase in wages.
How were wages before free movement from the EU? There was a recession in the early 90s IIRC. How were they in the 30s?  In the 1890s? Basically agree with this:


tim said:


> your boss is suppressing your wages not your co-workers.


When people from Oklahama went to California in the 1930s should the left position have been to say go home, Californian jobs for Californian workers? stop driving down our wages?
What about whats best for working class people in, say, post-Communist countries. Is Brexit good or bad for them?

Reaching for nationalist-capitalist market mechanisms as an argument for seemingly progressive state reforms (in this case Brexit) is worse than a cul-de-sac it seems, as it empowers nativism and nationalism. I'm open minded to left arguments for nativist-protectionism but have yet to hear it made convincingly, so remain deeply sceptical.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 26, 2021)

Well I’m sure there is a correct thread somewhere , not least the one you’ve set up. 
In a broader note what do you think about your fellow remainers on here arguing against the phased removal of tariffs in the Australian deal?


----------



## andysays (Jun 26, 2021)

ska invita said:


> I think the right thread for discussion is one like this one about Protectionism
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You may not mean to be doing it, but this comes across to me* as attempting to dictate the terms of the debate.

Just because someone is concerned about the effects of the large numbers of EU workers in Britain, doesn't mean they're in favour of protectionism, just as it doesn't mean they're in favour of "sending all the foreigners back".

To attempt to push the discussion in this particular direction by suggesting this means, in effect, to deny the lived experience of those with reasonable concerns and the feeling that they have been deliberately lied to about the scale of the issue, especially when it now turns out that the numbers are far higher than were previously acknowledged.

People's concerns have been dismissed for years by telling them the numbers are far less than they think, so the negative effects must be far less than they're claiming, and they must be racist for thinking otherwise.

But guess what? It turns out that the official estimates were wrong (and not just a little bit wrong) all along.

I'm not in favour of protectionism (you suggested that some days ago, on either this thread or a different one, I don't know how seriously), and it's both lazy and dismissive to engage in this sort of nonsense.

* yes, this *is* a deliberate reference to Supine 's post above.


----------



## Gramsci (Jun 26, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> So are you saying that purely because this thread is about the fate of EU nationals living in the UK that the  issues you mention ie capital exploiting  foreigners for cheap labour should be posted on other threads ?



If I get Supine right its the way it has been posted here.

My EU friends/partner and fellow workers are well aware of exploitation. None of them supported Brexit. They also didn't get a vote in the referendum. They were not able to have some say in the Brexit debate which decided their fate. They were excluded.

Now on this thread I follow there have been series of posts of how immigrant workers suppress wages of workers who are British.

Its really really annoying.

I've liked this thread as some of us are personally affected by this. Now its got into immigration I'm pissed off with it.


----------



## andysays (Jun 28, 2021)

Inspired by discussion on this thread, I spoke today with one of my (Polish) colleagues about their experience around Brexit and getting settled status.

He told me he'd applied ages ago, that he found the process quite simple to get through, and that he got a positive result for him and his (also Polish) wife quite quickly. He also said that he hadn't heard of anyone he knew, either through work or elsewhere who had significant difficulties sorting it out.

He also volunteered the info that he and his wife are currently applying for British passports, which they can have without giving up their Polish passports/citizenship. As I understand it, there's nothing more complicated to this than a normal passport application for a UK national.

Another of our colleagues is from Lithuania, which doesn't allow its citizens to have dual passports, so he (again as I understand it, this is secondhand info) has chosen to retain Lithuanian nationality for himself and his family, which is fair enough.

There are a few other colleagues I'm aware of who may be in similar situations (one Italian, one Slovak) so I'll ask them about their experiences if I get a chance.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 28, 2021)

Very busy today at work with people filling in forms at the last minute. There’s a lot of people who are going to miss out.


----------



## zahir (Jul 19, 2021)

And so it begins...








						Spanish woman in UK for 44 years sacked over post-Brexit rules
					

Employee in care home, who arrived as an 11-month-old, unable to prove she has right to work in Britain




					www.theguardian.com
				





> A Spanish woman who has lived in England for 44 years has been sacked from her job in a care home because she is unable to prove she has the right to work in the UK, in a case illustrating the difficulties experienced by EU nationals as employers grapple with post-Brexit right-to-work regulations.
> 
> The 45-year-old woman, who arrived in Britain as an 11-month-old baby and who has never left the country, said she has tried more than 100 times to get through to the Home Office-run helpline in the past three weeks, but has never been able to speak to an adviser.
> 
> She has applied for EU settled status, but her application is stuck somewhere in the backlog of over 500,000 cases the Home Office has yet to process. She is the main breadwinner, with two children to support, and said her dismissal has left her struggling to buy food.


----------



## ska invita (Jul 19, 2021)

zahir said:


> And so it begins...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The key bit of this story for me is people already in post are being checked for "paperwork" (no actual paperwork has been issued of course) by employers and acting accordingly. The new total border regime in effect


----------



## zahir (Jul 19, 2021)

ska invita said:


> The key bit of this story for me is people already in post are being checked for "paperwork" (no actual paperwork has been issued of course) by employers and acting accordingly. The new total border regime in effect


I'm expecting to hear about landlords taking the same approach before long.


----------



## ska invita (Jul 19, 2021)

zahir said:


> I'm expecting to hear about landlords taking the same approach before long.


it was happening already since the referendum result...no reason for these stories to end up in a newspaper though


----------



## zahir (Jul 19, 2021)

ska invita said:


> it was happening already since the referendum result...no reason for these stories to end up in a newspaper though


I was thinking of evictions over the immigration status of tenants (or of family or friends staying with tenants). This is going to happen and I expect it will get some publicity.


----------



## wemakeyousoundb (Jul 19, 2021)

ska invita said:


> The key bit of this story for me is people already in post are being checked for "paperwork" (no actual paperwork has been issued of course) by employers and acting accordingly. The new total border regime in effect


This already happened in the early noughties when fines to employers for employing staff without a "right to work" were introduced.


----------



## zahir (Jul 19, 2021)

LATEST: Home Office confirms Right to Rent evictions protocol – LandlordZONE
					






					www.landlordzone.co.uk
				





> EEA citizens who have an outstanding, late application to the EU Settlement Scheme (EUSS) and do not have any other form of immigration leave will not be permitted to take up new employment or enter into a new tenancy agreement until they have been granted status under the EUSS.


----------



## ska invita (Jul 19, 2021)

Landlord Zone ... Words to strike fear into anyone's heart.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 19, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Landlord Zone ... Words to strike fear into anyone's heart.


i think eviction has that effect too


----------



## TopCat (Jul 19, 2021)

wemakeyousoundb said:


> This already happened in the early noughties when fines to employers for employing staff without a "right to work" were introduced.


Was the person concerned employed by the same org since the early nineties? No change of employer since?


----------



## tim (Jul 19, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Landlord Zone ... Words to strike fear into anyone's heart.


Not into an assassin's heart.


----------



## TopCat (Jul 19, 2021)

There are more than a few details missing and a few questions that are begged 

So a Spanish citizen with a Spanish birth certificate who moved here as a baby. 

Never applied for a driving licence? Nor a passport? What ID they existed on is questionable. 

Let alone 44 years resident here and only prompted by the uk leaving the EU do they enquire about residency. 

It’s curious


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 19, 2021)

TopCat said:


> There are more than a few details missing and a few questions that are begged
> 
> So a Spanish citizen with a Spanish birth certificate who moved here as a baby.
> 
> ...


why do you think so? it’s perfectly normal to never apply for those things. and if you’ve grown up here since you were a baby, you could easily think yourself as British and not have it in mind that you weren’t considered to be by the Home Office


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 19, 2021)

TopCat said:


> There are more than a few details missing and a few questions that are begged
> 
> So a Spanish citizen with a Spanish birth certificate who moved here as a baby.
> 
> ...


about 3.5m people have neither a driving licence or passport, so she's hardly alone


----------



## andysays (Jul 19, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> about 3.5m people have neither a driving licence or passport, so she's hardly alone


Yeah, I can believe the passport and driver's licence, but I wonder if this woman had, eg, an NI number or an NHS number.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 19, 2021)

andysays said:


> Yeah, I can believe the passport and driver's licence, but I wonder if this woman had, eg, an NI number or an NHS number.


sure she has both


----------



## tim (Jul 19, 2021)

andysays said:


> Yeah, I can believe the passport and driver's licence, but I wonder if this woman had, eg, an NI number or an NHS number.


You don't need to be a British national to get either, and for her entire adult life she would have had full residency and the right to work because she was an EU national.


----------



## Flavour (Jul 19, 2021)

it is weird but these are exactly the sort of weird examples of people slipping through the gaps we knew would arise


----------



## andysays (Jul 19, 2021)

tim said:


> You don't need to be a British national to get either.


I know that (you don't need to be one to get a driving licence either), but having one would certainly help to establishing long term residency.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 19, 2021)

andysays said:


> Yeah, I can believe the passport and driver's licence, but I wonder if this woman had, eg, an NI number or an NHS number.


She says in the article that she's been paying National Insurance and taxes


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 19, 2021)

andysays said:


> I know that (you don't need to be one to get a driving licence either), but having one would certainly help to establishing long term residency.


not good enough for the home office


----------



## andysays (Jul 19, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> not good enough for the home office


Sorry, I'm not suggesting it is good enough for the Home Office, rather that if she has lived here all that time and paid tax and NI it should be possible to demonstrate her right to continue to live and work here, eventually. 

Not that that solves her immediate problem.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 19, 2021)

andysays said:


> Sorry, I'm not suggesting it is good enough for the Home Office, rather that if she has lived here all that time and paid tax and NI it should be possible to demonstrate her right to continue to live and work here, eventually.
> 
> Not that that solves her immediate problem.


well yes, but if you read the article, many employers don’t read the extensive guidelines in full and there will be instances like this that where the employer will err on the side of caution when face with a larger fine


----------



## andysays (Jul 19, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> well yes, but if you read the article, many employers don’t read the extensive guidelines in full and there will be instances like this that where the employer will err on the side of caution when face with a larger fine


I'm not trying to deny that.


----------



## ska invita (Jul 19, 2021)

andysays said:


> Sorry, I'm not suggesting it is good enough for the Home Office, rather that if she has lived here all that time and paid tax and NI it should be possible to demonstrate her right to continue to live and work here, eventually.


Just like all those "windrush" now dead or expelled


----------



## ska invita (Jul 19, 2021)

This is a good book, I recommend it, anthology of essays on different aspects of policing in the UK 









						Abolishing the Police - Dog Section Press
					

Abolishing the Police (An Illustrated Introduction) is both a contribution to this conversation and an invitation to join it. It provides rigorous and accessible analyses of why we might want to abolish the police, what abolishing them would involve, and how it might be achieved, introducing...




					dogsection.org
				




Theres a chapter on borders which made something clearer to me... The UK border is no longer at Dover, it is at every possible interaction in society... Health service, work, accommodation etc. Being in the country barely helps, there will be interactions with border control as often as the state can make it happen


----------



## ska invita (Jul 19, 2021)

ska invita said:


> This is a good book, I recommend it, anthology of essays on different aspects of policing in the UK
> 
> 
> 
> ...


theres a link there that lets you read it electronically  = page 39 onwards








						Abolishing the Police
					

“This is the first time we are seeing… a conversation about defunding, and some people having a conversation about abolishing the police and prison state. This must be what it felt like when people were talking about abolishing slavery.” – Patrisse Cullors, Black Lives Matter.  Abolishing the...




					issuu.com


----------



## editor (Jul 19, 2021)

andysays said:


> Inspired by discussion on this thread, I spoke today with one of my (Polish) colleagues about their experience around Brexit and getting settled status.
> 
> He told me he'd applied ages ago, that he found the process quite simple to get through, and that he got a positive result for him and his (also Polish) wife quite quickly. He also said that he hadn't heard of anyone he knew, either through work or elsewhere who had significant difficulties sorting it out.
> 
> ...


Here's what she says:



> The 45-year-old woman, who arrived in Britain as an 11-month-old baby and who has never left the country, said *she has tried more than 100 times to get through to the Home Office-run helpline in the past three weeks, but has never been able to speak to an adviser.*



Given the length of time I've spent trying to contact government/council agencies in the past, I would suspect that she's not alone.


----------



## andysays (Jul 19, 2021)

editor said:


> Here's what she says:


Why are you quoting my post from 28 June?


----------



## editor (Jul 19, 2021)

andysays said:


> Why are you quoting my post from 28 June?


Because I just read it and wanted to respond to it. I didn't realise there was a time limit on your posts.


----------



## andysays (Jul 19, 2021)

editor said:


> Because I just read it and wanted to respond to it. I didn't realise there was a time limit on your posts.


But what does it have to do with the story you've quoted in the same post?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jul 19, 2021)

tim said:


> You don't need to be a British national to get either, and for her entire adult life she would have had full residency and the right to work because she was an EU national.



EU nationals have not had the right to settle here for 40 years.


This is an unfortunate one. She says she has called 100 times in three weeks and not got through, what about the preceding five years, did she try to call then?


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 19, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> EU nationals have not had the right to settle here for 40 years.
> 
> 
> This is an unfortunate one. She says she has called 100 times in three weeks and not got through, what about the preceding five years, did she try to call then?


 why would she?


----------



## editor (Jul 19, 2021)

andysays said:


> But what does it have to do with the story you've quoted in the same post?


You were saying how things had gone oh so smoothly for your Polish pal. I was pointing out that clearly not everyone is as fortunate and Brexit is causing real hardship and distress.


----------



## andysays (Jul 19, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> EU nationals have not had the right to settle here for 40 years.
> 
> 
> This is an unfortunate one. She says she has called 100 times in three weeks and not got through, what about the preceding five years, did she try to call then?


It's quite possible that, as she's lived here since she was an infant, she didn't realise she needed to contact anyone. 

She may have assumed, incorrectly but quite understandably, that she was already entitled to live and work in the UK and that Brexit didn't effect that.


----------



## editor (Jul 19, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> EU nationals have not had the right to settle here for 40 years.
> 
> 
> This is an unfortunate one. She says she has called 100 times in three weeks and not got through, what about the preceding five years, did she try to call then?


Oh right, so it's her fault for not calling earlier! 

She's pretty much lived her entire life in the UK. Paid taxes and contributed and is, I imagine, as 'British' as you can get. 

So why would she start randomly calling up the Home Office?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jul 19, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> why would she?




Because if she didn't she may lose her right to residency. The whole Brexit thing was quite well publicised, there were leaflets and all sorts of stuff.


----------



## andysays (Jul 19, 2021)

editor said:


> You were saying how things had gone oh so smoothly for your Polish pal. I was pointing out that clearly not everyone is as fortunate and Brexit is causing real hardship and distress.


I don't think anyone is actually denying that Brexit is causing hardship and distress for some people; I'm certainly not.

But I still don't understand why you're quoting my post which describes how a couple of my colleagues who came to the UK from Poland and Lithuania to work as adults and therefore knew they needed to apply for settled status apparently managed to get it quite easily as if it's somehow relevant to the case of this Spanish woman who came to the UK as an infant and apparently didn't realise she needed to do anything until it was too late.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 19, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Because if she didn't she may lose her right to residency. The whole Brexit thing was quite well publicised, there were leaflets and all sorts of stuff.


you’d be surprised how many people wouldn’t have read anything or just partially understood but assumed it didn’t apply to them


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 19, 2021)

ska invita said:


> theres a link there that lets you read it electronically  = page 39 onwards
> 
> 
> 
> ...


there were of course internal borders for many years as people from the six counties could be barred from entering great britain


----------



## Boris Sprinkler (Jul 19, 2021)

I have just been pulled off a train entering Sweden because of my British passport. My Danish legitimation in accompaniment  is not valid apparently. And they are not processing my residency until august in accordance with my date of birth. 
Only problem is my girlfriend and dog live in Sweden. Fuck Boris. Fuck brexit and every fucking idiot that voted for this shit. Fucking tools.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 19, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Because if she didn't she may lose her right to residency. The whole Brexit thing was quite well publicised, there were leaflets and all sorts of stuff.


sadly not everyone reads urban75


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jul 19, 2021)

andysays said:


> It's quite possible that, as she's lived here since she was an infant, she didn't realise she needed to contact anyone.
> 
> She may have assumed, incorrectly but quite understandably, that she was already entitled to live and work in the UK and that Brexit didn't effect that.




Yes she may have done, I have a customer who is Austrian who was denied entry to the UK last week from Spain as she hadn't sorted residency, it had never crossed her mind. Her husband and three kids are all UK citizens, she is dual Austrian and US. She owns a business in the UK and has a house here. It was only cos she had a US passport that she was allowed in. So you can see how it happens, but when it comes to it Brexit has been fairly well publicised so you would have thought she may have looked in to it at some point in the past five years.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 19, 2021)

Boris Sprinkler said:


> I have just been pulled off a train entering Sweden because of my British passport. My Danish legitimation in accompaniment  is not valid apparently. And they are not processing my residency until august in accordance with my date of birth.
> Only problem is my girlfriend and dog live in Sweden. Fuck Boris. Fuck brexit and every fucking idiot that voted for this shit. Fucking tools.


by your danish legitimation do you mean you have danish citizenship?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jul 19, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> sadly not everyone reads urban75




Can't say I blame them.


----------



## andysays (Jul 19, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Yes she may have done, I have a customer who is Austrian who was denied entry to the UK last week from Spain as she hadn't sorted residency, it had never crossed her mind. Her husband and three kids are all UK citizens, she is dual Austrian and US. She owns a business in the UK and has a house here. It was only cos she had a US passport that she was allowed in. So you can see how it happens, but when it comes to it Brexit has been fairly well publicised so you would have thought she may have looked in to it at some point in the past five years.


Maybe it would have been better all round if she had, at some point in the past five years, thought "I wonder if I need to do anything in response to Brexit?" but given what we know of her circumstances, I'm not going to blame her for not realising


----------



## Boris Sprinkler (Jul 19, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> by your danish legitimation do you mean you have danish citizenship?


I have permanent residency in Denmark but they need a permit card too apparently. This will be processed in August according to the letter I received last year from Danish authorities just before Brexit. Got myself searched and detained for a short period too. Ffs. 
Guess which UK ward I was registered under as my last postal address before I moved to DK should I need to speak to “my “ MP about the matter. I have no chance of getting a reply from that soppy cunt*.

*uxbridge and south ruislip.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 19, 2021)

Boris Sprinkler said:


> I have permanent residency in Denmark but they need a permit card too apparently. This will be processed in August according to the letter I received last year from Danish authorities just before Brexit. Got myself searched and detained for a short period too. Ffs.
> Guess which UK ward I was registered under as my last postal address before I moved to DK should I need to speak to “my “ MP about the matter. I have no chance of getting a reply that soppy cunt*.
> 
> *uxbridge and south ruislip.


don't know whether to laugh or cry


----------



## tim (Jul 19, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> EU nationals have not had the right to settle here for 40 years.
> 
> 
> This is an unfortunate one. She says she has called 100 times in three weeks and not got through, what about the preceding five years, did she try to call then?


That's why I said adult life. I'm a decade older than her, and was living and working without restrictions in France and Italy in my mid-twenties.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jul 19, 2021)

andysays said:


> Maybe it would have been better all round if she had, at some point in the past five years, thought "I wonder if I need to do anything in response to Brexit?" but given what we know of her circumstances, I'm not going to blame her for not realising



She has since applied and been told it will be fine, she got through first time.


----------



## Supine (Jul 19, 2021)

Ministers under fire over 69p-a-minute helpline for EU citizens
					

Helpline for people trying to prove their right to remain in country after Brexit charged £10.35 for 15 minutes




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 19, 2021)

Supine said:


> Ministers under fire over 69p-a-minute helpline for EU citizens
> 
> 
> Helpline for people trying to prove their right to remain in country after Brexit charged £10.35 for 15 minutes
> ...


Disgraceful


----------



## Boris Sprinkler (Jul 19, 2021)

This about sums it up.


----------



## Gramsci (Jul 19, 2021)

andysays said:


> Maybe it would have been better all round if she had, at some point in the past five years, thought "I wonder if I need to do anything in response to Brexit?" but given what we know of her circumstances, I'm not going to blame her for not realising



You have been posting up several post which make me think you are. Why are you on this thread?

Some of us here have partners and friends who are affected by this. 

Your posts here are just winding me up


----------



## andysays (Jul 20, 2021)

Gramsci said:


> You have been posting up several post which make me think you are. Why are you on this thread?
> 
> Some of us here have partners and friends who are affected by this.
> 
> Your posts here are just winding me up


I don't have to justify to you why I'm posting on this or any other thread.

But as editor's still unexplained quote of my post from nearly a month ago demonstrates, I too have friends who are affected by this, whose experience isn't the same as that which some on this thread seem be suggesting is pretty much universal.

Which is not, of course, to minimise the problems that some people have had and continue to have.


----------



## Boris Sprinkler (Jul 20, 2021)

To be fair, in the case of DK, they always stated that permanent residency should be accompanied by ID cards and it was illegal to not have it on your person. Which when I enquired about getting a card was told they are not issuing them for (then) European applicants. A catch 22 of priti patel proportions.
Further, have not been able to apply for Irish citizenship as the office for handling such applications in Dublin has been closed since last year due to corona. Will probably take a trip to the embassy here this week to see if they can help.

Why not apply for Citizenship here you probably ask? Criminal records for plant ownership and run ins with pegida. Not going to spunk my money and time up the wall, just to be refused.


----------



## Spymaster (Jul 20, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> why do you think so? it’s perfectly normal to never apply for those things. and if you’ve grown up here since you were a baby, you could easily think yourself as British and not have it in mind that you weren’t considered to be by the Home Office


I’d have thought the opposite. Surely if you know that you were born in an EU state, don’t have a Brit passport, and know that the UK is leaving the EU; you check out your status?


----------



## editor (Jul 20, 2021)

andysays said:


> I too have friends who are affected by this, whose experience isn't the same as that which some on this thread seem be suggesting is pretty much universal.


Handy that, given your pro Brexit stance.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 20, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> I’d have thought the opposite. Surely if you know that you were born in an EU state, don’t have a Brit passport, and know that the UK is leaving the EU; you check out your status?


there were no eu states 40 years ago


----------



## Spymaster (Jul 20, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> there were no eu states 40 years ago



This post is of no significance


----------



## Raheem (Jul 20, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> I’d have thought the opposite. Surely if you know that you were born in an EU state, don’t have a Brit passport, and know that the UK is leaving the EU; you check out your status?


Definitely, and if you leave it a bit late, you can hardly complain about being drowned in the Thames, can you?


----------



## andysays (Jul 20, 2021)

editor said:


> Handy that, given your pro Brexit stance.


What are you suggesting?


----------



## editor (Jul 20, 2021)

andysays said:


> What are you suggesting?


That you're more likely to forward positive messages.


----------



## Raheem (Jul 20, 2021)

andysays said:


> What are you suggesting?


It all comes across a bit


----------



## ska invita (Jul 20, 2021)

andysays said:


> I don't have to justify to you why I'm posting on this or any other thread.
> 
> But as editor's still unexplained quote of my post from nearly a month ago demonstrates, I too have friends who are affected by this, whose experience isn't the same as that which some on this thread seem be suggesting is pretty much universal.
> 
> Which is not, of course, to minimise the problems that some people have had and continue to have.


worth perhaps reading the first post on this thread
the vast majority of people will be fine
but a percentage won't. 
that was always going to be the case
and even 1% of 3.5 million is 35,000 people
if it is only 1% that would be a huge success by the states standards. a disaster nonetheless for those affected
current information (a few pages back) suggests we are looking at hundreds of thouands unregistered, not tens.
the important thing for everyone is to support where we can and resist evictions, denial of health treatment, and deportations etc. not pretend it isn't happening because it feels personally inconvenient.


----------



## Spymaster (Jul 20, 2021)

Raheem said:


> Definitely, and if you leave it a bit late, you can hardly complain about being drowned in the Thames, can you?



I think that would be a little excessive but in life, if you don't do what you should do, things often get complicated.


----------



## Raheem (Jul 20, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> I think that would be a little excessive but in life, if you don't do what you should do, things often get complicated.


Ok, on refection, the Oose.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 20, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> I think that would be a little excessive but in life, if you don't do what you should do, things often get complicated.


things are never that complicated. it's just adults can't be arsed to explain them to children.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 20, 2021)

editor said:


> That you're more likely to forward positive messages.


Than negative ones do you mean?


----------



## Spymaster (Jul 20, 2021)

Raheem said:


> Ok, on refection, the Oose.



It's the Ouse, but yes. Perhaps just a quick dunking though.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 20, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> I’d have thought the opposite. Surely if you know that you were born in an EU state, don’t have a Brit passport, and know that the UK is leaving the EU; you check out your status?


maybe if you have the resources you and i have, but not everyone follows current affairs, some might not speak English well, and some might be illiterate.


----------



## andysays (Jul 20, 2021)

editor said:


> That you're more likely to forward positive messages.


I think it's probably true of most people that they will, on the whole, post stuff favourable to their position, which is why it comes as no surprise that you, for instance, seem to post pretty much exclusively negative messages about Brexit.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 20, 2021)

andysays said:


> I think it's probably true of most people that they will, on the whole, post stuff favourable to their position, which is why it comes as no surprise that you, for instance, seem to post pretty much exclusively negative messages about Brexit.


it could be because there is so little positive news about brexit


----------



## andysays (Jul 20, 2021)

ska invita said:


> worth perhaps reading the first post on this thread
> the vast majority of people will be fine
> but a percentage won't.
> that was always going to be the case
> ...


But I haven't denied that any of that is happening, and I've repeatedly made clear that I'm against it happening.


----------



## editor (Jul 20, 2021)

andysays said:


> I think it's probably true of most people that they will, on the whole, post stuff favourable to their position, which is why it comes as no surprise that you, for instance, seem to post pretty much exclusively negative messages about Brexit.


I wish there were positive things to say about Brexit but as far as I can see, it's mainly an ongoing crock of shit that is negatively impacting on many people's lives.

It's certainly shafted me personally and fucked over the careers of a lot of my friends.


----------



## andysays (Jul 20, 2021)

editor said:


> I wish there were positive things to say about Brexit but as far as I can see, it's mainly an ongoing crock of shit that is negatively impacting on many people's lives.
> 
> It's certainly shafted me personally and fucked over the careers of a lot of my friends.


Handy that, given your anti-Brexit stance...


----------



## editor (Jul 20, 2021)

andysays said:


> Handy that, given your anti-Brexit stance...


I've lost a load of work, income and opportunities because of Brexit. How is that 'handy'? Please explain.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 20, 2021)

andysays said:


> Handy that, given your anti-Brexit stance...


although despite my previous post perhaps the clusterfuck that is brexit will prove a good thing, in that i expect it's very hard these days to find anyone who is as persuaded now as they might have been on 22 june 2016 that the ruling class have a scintilla of notion of what they're doing. the first person i spoke to about brexit, some time before the referendum, told me that he felt it would open up political opportunities which weren't previously there. we've seen ukip and farage, formerly such a force in british politics, relegated to the sidelines. one-nation toryism has all but disappeared from the parliamentary conservative party, and is i think unlikely to return. the labour party is eating itself alive again. and the fun hasn't even really started yet, the slow shipwreck of brexit has already undone a load of auld certainties in british politics and will before it's done leave the political landscape very different.


----------



## Raheem (Jul 20, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> although despite my previous post perhaps the clusterfuck that is brexit will prove a good thing, in that i expect it's very hard these days to find anyone who is as persuaded now as they might have been on 22 june 2016 that the ruling class have a scintilla of notion of what they're doing. the first person i spoke to about brexit, some time before the referendum, told me that he felt it would open up political opportunities which weren't previously there. we've seen ukip and farage, formerly such a force in british politics, relegated to the sidelines. one-nation toryism has all but disappeared from the parliamentary conservative party, and is i think unlikely to return. the labour party is eating itself alive again. and the fun hasn't even really started yet, the slow shipwreck of brexit has already undone a load of auld certainties in british politics and will before it's done leave the political landscape very different.


What we've got is arguably the worst of both world's though. Few people have faith that the ruling class have a clue, yet we seem to have reverted to the idea that they are our natural born leaders. Instead of ditching them, we've ditched the idea that it matters whether they are competent or not.


----------



## Spymaster (Jul 20, 2021)

andysays said:


> Handy that, given your anti-Brexit stance...


Had this on another thread recently. A remainer recently posted a nightmare farrago that his friend had, ordering from a Canadian company, a product delivered via Germany. Last week I ordered from the same website and also had the product delivered from Germany. It arrived 3 or 4 days after I ordered it and there was no duty to pay. Smooth as silk. One might conclude that many remoaner accounts of woe on here are embellished, at best.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 20, 2021)

Raheem said:


> What we've got is arguably the worst of both world's though. Few people have faith that the ruling class have a clue, yet we seem to have reverted to the idea that they are our natural born leaders. Instead of ditching them, we've ditched the idea that it matters whether they are competent or not.


yeh the game is yet in play and the end in doubt


----------



## andysays (Jul 20, 2021)

editor said:


> I've lost a load of work, income and opportunities because of Brexit. How is that 'handy'? Please explain.


So it's OK for you to post


editor said:


> Handy that, given your pro Brexit stance.


but if I post


andysays said:


> Handy that, given your anti-Brexit stance...


you ask me to explain


----------



## andysays (Jul 20, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Had this on another thread recently. A remainer recently posted a nightmare farrago that his friend had, ordering from a Canadian company, a product delivered via Germany. Last week I ordered from the same website and also had the product delivered from Germany. It arrived 3 or 4 days after I ordered it and there was no duty to pay. Smooth as silk. One might conclude that many remoaner accounts of woe on here are embellished, at best.


I don't know if they're embellished or not, I'm sure some people have had significant problems as a result of Brexit (and more particularly the shitty implementation of Brexit), but that isn't in itself an argument for saying Brexit was necessarily a bad idea all round.


----------



## Supine (Jul 20, 2021)

Going back to that Spanish lady, nice to see the GoodLaw team are going to get involved. It hardly seems fair as it was promised that EU nationals living in U.K. would be given *automatic* settled status so they didn't have to do anything.


----------



## Spymaster (Jul 20, 2021)

Supine said:


> ... it was promised that EU nationals living in U.K. would be given *automatic* settled status so they didn't have to do anything.



Err, are you sure about that? I think you're wrong.

There was a huge campaign prior to leaving explaining what EU nationals needed to do prior to the given dates. As far as I recall, none of the advice given was 'do nothing'.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 20, 2021)

Supine said:


> Going back to that Spanish lady, nice to see the GoodLaw team are going to get involved. It hardly seems fair as it was promised that EU nationals living in U.K. would be given *automatic* settled status so they didn't have to do anything.


oh dear

there is of course more but that's the most relevant bit


----------



## Supine (Jul 20, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Err, are you sure about that? I think you're wrong.
> 
> There was a huge campaign prior to leaving explaining what EU nationals needed to do prior to the given dates. As far as I recall, none of the advice given was 'do nothing'.



It was Johnson who said it, so almost certainly wrong!


----------



## editor (Jul 20, 2021)

andysays said:


> I don't know if they're embellished or not, I'm sure some people have had significant problems as a result of Brexit (and more particularly the shitty implementation of Brexit), but that isn't in itself an argument for saying Brexit was necessarily a bad idea all round.


So it it's not a bad idea, how has it been a good idea 'all round'? 

What amazing benefits have been worth the immense costs of fudging through endless legislation, the associated rise in xenophobia, the problems in Northern Ireland, the loss of earnings for musicians and the music industry, small business being fucked over, and the cruel uncertainty for people like the lady who has lived in the UK almost all of her life?

Meanwhile:









						Five years on from the Brexit referendum, the result is clear: both unions are losing
					

The UK has been weakened, but so too has the EU. Relations between them need not be this bad, says Guardian columnist Timothy Garton Ash




					www.theguardian.com
				











						Damaging legacy of Brexit
					

Scotland has right to choose different future.




					www.gov.scot


----------



## Spymaster (Jul 20, 2021)

Supine said:


> It was Johnson who said it, so almost certainly wrong!



Well whatever, but there's no way that any EU nationals living here should have been under the illusion that residency was automatic and they needed to do nothing. Once again going back to personal experiences but I know of many, all of whom got busy in the year or two prior to Brexit and got their shit sorted. These tales of woe, much beloved in remoaner land are exceptions, not the rule.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 20, 2021)

Supine said:


> It was Johnson who said it, so almost certainly wrong!


i'd be very interested if you could produce a link confirming this because a check of newspapers going back before 2016 suggests no such thing


----------



## tim (Jul 20, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Well whatever, but there's no way that any EU nationals living here should have been under the illusion that residency was automatic and they needed to do nothing. Once again going back to personal experiences but I know of many, all of whom got busy in the year or two prior to Brexit and got their shit sorted. These tales of woe, much beloved in remoaner land, are exceptions, not the rule.



The problem is residency is automatic but they have to do something, which has created pointless messes like this. Given the blowback over "Windrush", you'd have thought even the most rabid Tories would have seen the potential of this rebounding


----------



## Spymaster (Jul 20, 2021)

tim said:


> The problem is residency is automatic but they have to do something ...



Not sure what you mean by this


----------



## tim (Jul 20, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Not sure what you mean by this


if an EU citizen, who was resident in the UK before BREXIT has applied for the right to remain a resident in the UK. They will be granted that right, for them the same conditions will apply  post-BREXIT as applied before BREXIT, so it would have been easier and cheaper just to leave them alone and apply restrictions to those who arrived after EU departure. The current approach, expecting people to be pro-active creates situations like this, and is pointlessly expensive, lining the pockets of the cronies who run Serco and Capita.


----------



## andysays (Jul 20, 2021)

editor said:


> So it it's not a bad idea, how has it been a good idea 'all round'?
> 
> What amazing benefits have been worth the immense costs of fudging through endless legislation, the associated rise in xenophobia, the problems in Northern Ireland, the loss of earnings for musicians and the music industry, small business being fucked over, and the cruel uncertainty for people like the lady who has lived in the UK almost all of her life?


Saying something wasn't a bad idea all round doesn't mean it was necessarily a good idea all round, ie that there are no negative consequences.

I think we've established over a number of years and a number of threads that there is nothing which you are prepared to accept as a benefit of Brexit, so I'm not going to waste anyone's time trying to persuade you otherwise.


----------



## Spymaster (Jul 20, 2021)

andysays said:


> Saying something wasn't a bad idea all round doesn't mean it was necessarily a good idea all round ...



This really shouldn't need explaining!


----------



## editor (Jul 20, 2021)

andysays said:


> Saying something wasn't a bad idea all round doesn't mean it was necessarily a good idea all round, ie that there are no negative consequences.
> 
> I think we've established over a number of years and a number of threads that there is nothing which you are prepared to accept as a benefit of Brexit, so I'm not going to waste anyone's time trying to persuade you otherwise.


OK. Well there's a fudge and a half. 

So your stance on Brexit is that it's neither bad nor good, yes?  So on that basis, do you think it's been worth the immense cost to taxpayers, the rise of xenophobia, the creative industry being fucked over, and all the other negative stuff that's been documented here? Or do you not count those as negatives? 

And more importantly, what's the brilliant positives for ordinary folk that cancel out those negatives?


----------



## Spymaster (Jul 20, 2021)

tim said:


> if an EU citizen, who was resident in the UK before BREXIT has applied for the right to remain a resident in the UK. They will be granted that right, for them the same conditions will apply  post-BREXIT as applied before BREXIT, so it would have been easier and cheaper just to leave them alone and apply restrictions to those who arrived after EU departure. The current approach, expecting people to be pro-active creates situations like this, and is pointlessly expensive, lining the pockets of the cronies who run Serco and Capita.


Nonsense. How do you then differentiate those who were here before from those who came after?


----------



## tim (Jul 20, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Nonsense. How do you then differentiate those who were here before from those who came after?


The former, if asked will have a National Insurance number issued before BREXIT.


----------



## Spymaster (Jul 20, 2021)

tim said:


> The former, if asked will have a National Insurance number issued before BREXIT.



What if they didn't/don't?

I


----------



## tim (Jul 20, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> What if they didn't/don't?


In this case, they would certainly as they were automatically issued to children resident in the UK six months before their sixteenth birthday and I know nobody who moved here as an adult who didn't apply for one.


----------



## Spymaster (Jul 20, 2021)

tim said:


> In this case, they would certainly as they were automatically issued to children resident in the UK six months before their sixteenth birthday and I know nobody who moved here as an adult who didn't apply for one.



That's this case.  What about everyone who's arrived after their 16th birthday and not yet worked?

It makes perfect sense to bestow a status based on an application.


----------



## tim (Jul 20, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> That's this case.  What about everyone who's arrived after their 16th birthday and not yet worked?
> 
> It makes perfect sense to bestow a status based on an application.


If they've not worked legally and are not claiming benefits, they would fly under the radar both before and after BREXIT. If they've never worked and, excluding other extenuating circumstances, try to claim benefit, even under EU law they could be deported. to prevent you from becoming a burden on the state.


----------



## Spymaster (Jul 20, 2021)

tim said:


> If they've not worked legally and are not claiming benefits, they would fly under the radar both before and after BREXIT. If they've never worked and, excluding other extenuating circumstances, try to claim benefit, even under EU law they could be deported. to prevent you from becoming a burden on the state.



The point is for them _not_ to go unnoticed for _their_ sakes as much as any other. The way to do that is to issue a status to those who apply for it so they have something to show potential employers, benefits people, landlords, etc, that differentiates them from someone who arrived this year unless they pass the new requirements. _Exactly_ the same as it works for foreigners in any other non-EU country. What you're suggesting makes no sense.


----------



## Raheem (Jul 20, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> _Exactly_ the same as it works for foreigners in any other non-EU country.


The woman in question has lived in the UK since before she could talk.


----------



## Spymaster (Jul 20, 2021)

Raheem said:


> The woman in question has lived in the UK since before she could talk.


I know. So what? We’re discussing how to generally issue leave to remain.


----------



## Raheem (Jul 20, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> I know. So what? We’re discussing how to generally issue leave to remain.


No, we're discussing a situation specific to Brexit, where people are being asked to take action to safeguard a right to to live in the country that they already have, and have had for decades in some cases.


----------



## Spymaster (Jul 20, 2021)

Raheem said:


> No, we're discussing a situation specific to Brexit, where people are being asked to take action to safeguard a right to to live in the country that they already have, and have had for decades in some cases.


Yes.


----------



## zahir (Jul 23, 2021)

Thousands aged over 65 failed to apply for EU settled status – report
					

Lords report calls on the government to ensure support remains in place to help late applicants secure their status




					www.theguardian.com
				





> Just 2% of all applications for the settlement scheme were submitted by people aged over 65, a percentage that is unlikely to reflect the population of older EU nationals living in the UK. Charities supporting older Europeans to apply said they had “encountered many individuals who have no mobile phone, no digital access and inappropriate or no documentation”, and the report warned that people who struggled with the digital technology required to apply were more likely to have missed the deadline for applications at the end of last month.
> 
> The House of Lords European affairs committee report called on the government to ensure that support remained in place to help late applicants secure their status.
> 
> “The fact that only 2% of applicants are aged over 65 suggests older people may have been missed or simply couldn’t apply by the deadline. These people need more comprehensive legal safeguards to ensure late applications do not count against them securing their rights to remain here,” Lord Kinnoull, the chair of the committee, said. The Citizens’ Rights report noted particular concern for Italian nationals who had emigrated to Britain after the second world war.



eta: here's the report


			https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld5802/ldselect/ldeuaff/46/46.pdf


----------



## Supine (Jul 24, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Err, are you sure about that? I think you're wrong.
> 
> There was a huge campaign prior to leaving explaining what EU nationals needed to do prior to the given dates. As far as I recall, none of the advice given was 'do nothing'.


----------



## Spymaster (Jul 24, 2021)

Supine said:


> View attachment 280258



That doesn't mean they need to "do nothing".

It refers to EU citizens "_lawfully_ resident in the UK", so obviously their lawful status would have to be proven. It's like saying anyone passing a driving test will automatically be granted a licence. They'd still have to apply for it and show they passed the test. And again, there were huge campaigns, TV and press, before Brexit telling them what they needed to do (it wasn't nothing). Over 5 million EU citizens have successfully applied and been granted _settled_ or _pre-settled_ status,. They all got the message just fine so nobody has been blindsided here.


----------



## bimble (Jul 24, 2021)

The government website which lists what kind of evidence they will and won't accept from people trying to prove that they've been resident here for the required length of time includes this little list of things which are not allowed.




that little list is obviously there because of people trying to jump through the required hoops but lacking a filing cabinet containing the correct documents spanning 5 years. 

Looking at the list, my mum would not i think have been able to prove her right to stay, despite living here for some 35 years.


----------



## Spymaster (Jul 24, 2021)

bimble said:


> The government website which lists what kind of evidence they will and won't accept from people trying to prove that they've been resident here for the required length of time includes this little list of things which are not allowed.
> 
> View attachment 280267
> 
> ...



Or more likely that some fucking idiots need it spelled out that letters from family and friends are not official or impartial.


----------



## bimble (Jul 24, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Or more likely that some fucking idiots need it spelled out that letters from family and friends are not official or impartial.


You really are being a dick about this.
Not everyone has 5 years worth of official documents with their name and address on them.

eg)








						[:en]Settled Status for Those in Precarious or Insecure Work[:es]Tengo un trabajo precario o inseguro[:bg]Работата ми е несигурна[:sk]Mám pochybnú alebo neistú prácu[:pl]Mam niepewną lub niestabilną pracę[:hu]A munkahelyem bizonytalan vagy inog[:ro]P
					

Settled Status information and advice for those who are in low paid self-employment, who do zero-hour contract work or agency work, or 'gig-economy' work.




					settled.org.uk
				











						[:en]Settled Status for Victims or Survivors of Modern Slavery[:es]Soy una víctima o superviviente de esclavitud moderna[:bg]Аз съм жертва на модерно робство ( или оцелял(а) от модерно робство)[:sk]Čelím alebo čelil/a som modernému otroctvu[:pl]Jeste
					

Settled Status information for victims and surviviors of modern slavery. Find relevant information and contact details to organisations that can help you.




					settled.org.uk
				











						[:en]Settled Status for Victims or Survivors of Domestic Abuse[:es]Soy una víctima o superviviente de violencia doméstica[:bg]Аз съм жертва на домашно насилие (или оцелял(а) от домашно насилие)[:sk]Čelím alebo čelil/a som domácemu zneužívaniu[:pl]Jes
					

Settled Status information for victims and surviviors of domestic abuse. Find relevant information and contact details to organisations that can help you.




					settled.org.uk
				




What are they supposed to do, the fucking idiots.


----------



## andysays (Jul 24, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> That doesn't mean they need to "do nothing".
> 
> It refers to EU citizens "_lawfully_ resident in the UK", so obviously their lawful status would have to be proven. It's like saying anyone passing a driving test will automatically be granted a licence. They'd still have to apply for it and show they passed the test. And again, there were huge campaigns, TV and press, before Brexit telling them what they needed to do (it wasn't nothing). Over 5 million EU citizens have successfully applied and been granted _settled_ or _pre-settled_ status,. They all got the message just fine so nobody has been blindsided here.



It's also similar (and perhaps this is a better comparison) to saying anyone who is a British citizen is entitled to a British passport.

You still need to apply for the passport (and provide documentation to demonstrate your entitlement), and you need to keep and use that passport in certain situations to prove your status.

Those who don't possess the appropriate documents, whether that's a passport or leave to remain or anything else, are always likely to have trouble proving their status. 

This issue is not unique to the UK, and certainly not to Brexit, and most people recognise that it's a necessary and relatively minor inconvenience rather than a massive issue. For a small number of people in particular situations, it can be a massive issue, but I'm baffled by the tendency of some on this thread to talk as if that's the general picture for everyone.


----------



## bimble (Jul 24, 2021)

andysays said:


> It's also similar (and perhaps this is a better comparison) to saying anyone who is a British citizen is entitled to a British passport.
> 
> You still need to apply for the passport (and provide documentation to demonstrate your entitlement), and you need to keep and use that passport in certain situations to prove your status.
> 
> ...


Thats not a great comparison is it because a passport is optional, not having a passport doesn't mean you are here illegally.


----------



## Spymaster (Jul 24, 2021)

bimble said:


> You really are being a dick about this.
> Not everyone has official documents with their name on them. What are they supposed to do, the fucking idiots.


 
Well you're the one posting silly lists of things that wouldn't be considered evidence by anyone in the world, ever!


----------



## bimble (Jul 24, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Well you're the one posting silly lists of things that wouldn't be considered evidence by anyone in the world, ever!


If i was the home office I'd accept postcards, with your name address and a dated stamp on them, if they had the correct documents they'd send those instead wouldnt they.


----------



## andysays (Jul 24, 2021)

bimble said:


> You really are being a dick about this.
> Not everyone has 5 years worth of official documents with their name and address on them.
> 
> eg)
> ...



Just take one example, I've worked at various times for employment agencies and on zero hours contracts.

I was given standard pay slips just the same as anyone who was a permanent employee, including a P60 at the end of the year.

Most people in this situation will be able to prove their employment details just as easily as most people in permanent employment.


----------



## Spymaster (Jul 24, 2021)

bimble said:


> If i was the home office I'd accept postcards, with your name address and a dated stamp on them ...



I'm sure you would. That doesn't make it non-ludicrous though!


----------



## bimble (Jul 24, 2021)

andysays said:


> Just take one example, I've worked at various times for employment agencies and on zero hours contracts.
> 
> I was given standard pay slips just the same as anyone who was a permanent employee, including a P60 at the end of the year.
> 
> Most people in this situation will be able to prove their employment details just as easily as most people in permanent employment.


Yes. Those people will be fine.


----------



## andysays (Jul 24, 2021)

bimble said:


> Thats not a great comparison is it because a passport is optional, not having a passport doesn't mean you are here illegally.


We're not talking about whether it's optional, we're talking about the process of getting one, and the fact that there needs to be a process.

But if you think it's all too much hassle, then don't bother getting passport or renewing your existing one, and just present a postcard with your name and address on it the next time you need to prove your status. I'm sure that will go well.


----------



## bimble (Jul 24, 2021)

andysays said:


> But if you think it's all too much hassle, then don't bother


I don't think this is what is going on, you know. It's not that people are sending postcards because they're too lazy to get their settled status properly.

Don't know why people are being so weird and aggressive about this.
Yes, the large majority of eligible people will have applied and got their settled / pre-settled status without too much hassle. 

There are many who will fall through the cracks though that's all, not because they're lazy or fucking idiots. 
For instance am pretty sure my mum if she still lived here would have been one of them, not from laziness just lack of paperwork.









						Unsettled Status - 2020: Which EU Citizens are at Risk of Failing to Secure their Rights after Brexit? - Migration Observatory
					

Report update highlighting the difficulties certain groups of people may encounter in securing status




					migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk


----------



## andysays (Jul 24, 2021)

bimble said:


> I don't think this is what is going on, you know. It's not that people are sending postcards because they're too lazy to get their settled status properly.
> 
> Don't know why people are being so weird and aggressive about this.
> Yes, the large majority of eligible people will have applied and got their settled / pre-settled status without too much hassle.
> ...


You're the one who's introduced postcards as an appropriate means of demonstrating status, and making comments about people being lazy or fucking idiots.

You're the one whose posts are coming across as weird and aggressive.

Your recent contributions to this thread are pretty ridiculous, TBH.


----------



## bimble (Jul 24, 2021)

andysays said:


> You're the one who's introduced postcards as an appropriate means of demonstrating status, and making comments about people being lazy or fucking idiots.
> 
> Your recent contributions to this thread are pretty ridiculous, TBH.


You are the one who said ' if you think it's all too much hassle & don't bother' & spy called the people submitting inadmissable evidence fucking idiots. But ok.


----------



## Yossarian (Jul 24, 2021)

If thousands upon thousands of elderly people have "fallen through the cracks" of a nationalist right-wing government's flagship anti-immigration policy, I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest that the government might be the party at fault.


----------



## andysays (Jul 24, 2021)

bimble said:


> You are the one who said ' if you think it's all too much hassle & don't bother' & spy called the people submitting inadmissable evidence fucking idiots. But ok.


My comment about too much hassle was directed specifically at you and your ridiculous suggestion about postcards.

I've already said that I recognise there are some people who have trouble proving their status, but as you've previously posted about travelling abroad eg to visit your parents, I'm making the assumption that you currently have a passport or at least have had one in the past, so that doesn't apply to you.

I'm not arguing that there isn't an issue here for some people, but your posts aren't really helping discuss that in any way.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 24, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> If thousands upon thousands of elderly people have "fallen through the cracks" of a nationalist right-wing government's flagship anti-immigration policy, I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest that the government might be the party at fault.


The entire policy is cracked


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 24, 2021)

andysays said:


> Your recent contributions to this thread are pretty ridiculous, TBH.


At times like these we all need something to laugh at


----------



## bimble (Jul 24, 2021)

andysays said:


> My comment about too much hassle was directed specifically at you and your ridiculous suggestion about postcards.
> 
> I've already said that I recognise there are some people who have trouble proving their status, but as you've previously posted about travelling abroad eg to visit your parents, I'm making the assumption that you currently have a passport or at least have had one in the past, so that doesn't apply to you.
> 
> I'm not arguing that there isn't an issue here for some people, but your posts aren't really helping discuss that in any way.


Not sure what point you were making then, why on earth would i ever use a postcard to try to get a passport? I am good at this stuff, i have three. 
The postcards thing was on the government website, where you go to find the list of what is required for settled status.
Not my idea, just found the list of rejected evidence (scrap books, birthday cards etc) quite moving tbh. And I was not being entirely serious when i said If I was the home office.


----------



## andysays (Jul 24, 2021)

bimble said:


> Not sure what point you were making then, why on earth would i ever use a postcard to try to get a passport? I am good at this stuff, i have three.
> The postcards thing was on the government website, where you go to find the list of what is required for settled status.
> Not my idea, just found the list of rejected evidence (scrap books, birthday cards etc) quite moving tbh. And I was not being entirely serious when i said If I was the home office.


Most of your posting history appears to be "not being entirely serious", TBH.

If you were actually serious about this issue, you could have started with a list of which documents *are* required or acceptable, and why some people might not have what's necessary, but if you already have three passports I suppose it's all just something to have a laugh about on the internet rather than something which affects you directly.


----------



## bimble (Jul 24, 2021)

Oh sod off. You’re just being silly now. The list of rejected documents is what I wanted to post . Maybe I should have asked you first. 

You don’t really think I’m here having a laugh about people becoming illegal through lack of paperwork.


----------



## Yossarian (Jul 24, 2021)

bimble said:


> Not my idea, just found the list of rejected evidence (scrap books, birthday cards etc) quite moving tbh.



It is kind of moving - the older people now having difficulties must include a lot of widows or widowers whose partners spoke better English and took care of the paperwork.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jul 24, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> It is kind of moving - the older people now having difficulties must include a lot of widows or widowers whose partners spoke better English and took care of the paperwork.



Not my ‘orrible cunt of a step mother though, she got settled status in around 30 minutes. The whole fucking point of Brexit was to send her back to Utrecht


----------



## tim (Jul 24, 2021)

bimble said:


> Not sure what point you were making then, why on earth would i ever use a postcard to try to get a passport? I am good at this stuff, i have three.
> The postcards thing was on the government website, where you go to find the list of what is required for settled status.
> Not my idea, just found the list of rejected evidence (scrap books, birthday cards etc) quite moving tbh. And I was not being entirely serious when i said If I was the home office.


I remember when you could go to the Post Office taking a form supposedly signed by a middle-class professional, a birth certificate or other scrap of paper that said you were who you said you were, a £10 note, and be issued with a cream card pamphlet passport. It was, however, only valid for one year.

The British Visitor's Passport - The Simplicity Of A Travel Document


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jul 24, 2021)

tim said:


> I remember when you could go to the Post Office taking a form supposedly signed by a middle-class professional, a Birth Certificate or other scrap of paper that said you were who you were: and £10 be issued with a cream card pamphlet passport. It was, however, only valid for one year.
> 
> The British Visitor's Passport - The Simplicity Of A Travel Document
> 
> View attachment 280311


My first passport was one of those. Only really for a few countries like bits of Western Europe iirc.


----------



## Spymaster (Jul 24, 2021)

tim said:


> I remember when you could go to the Post Office taking a form supposedly signed by a middle-class professional, a birth certificate or other scrap of paper that said you were who you said you were, a £10 note, and be issued with a cream card pamphlet passport. It was, however, only valid for one year.
> 
> The British Visitor's Passport - The Simplicity Of A Travel Document
> 
> View attachment 280311



You needed a birth certificate and proof of ID (bank statement or bill) to get one of those. Pretty much the same as EU citizens needed to get (pre)/settled status here. They were scrapped because other EU states didn't like them.


----------



## Raheem (Jul 24, 2021)

I had one of the salmon card passports. The woman behind the counter put down my place of birth as "Pontyfract, Wales". Not sure it was a foolproof system.


----------



## brogdale (Jul 24, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> You needed a birth certificate and proof of ID (bank statement or bill) to get one of those. Pretty much the same as EU citizens needed to get (pre)/settled status here. They were scrapped because other EU states didn't like them.


The official line at the time, (1994), was that their ease of purchase presented a security loophole. There were also claims that they were too costly to administer and that the Spanish, in one of their periodic fits of Gib-induced pique, had stated that they would o longer be acceptable.


----------



## Spymaster (Jul 24, 2021)

brogdale said:


> The official line at the time, (1994), was that their ease of purchase presented a security loophole. There were also claims that they were too costly to administer and that the Spanish, in one of their periodic fits of Gib-induced pique, had stated that they would o longer be acceptable.


I used one to go to Germany. The passport bloke in Frankfurt looked at it disdainfully, picked my photo off (it had been fixed on with a Pritt-Stick in Bracknell post office), folded it back into the card, chucked it back through the little hole, and nodded me through.


----------



## bimble (Jul 24, 2021)

Getting my most recent passport, the Slovakian one, purely a Remoaner luxury item, was an interesting process. Took about a year, around £200, all of my best googling skills, my Dad's original birth certificate (which had JEW stamped on it, which was interesting to see), loads of help from nice people at the embassy. It was a proper slog, had a special A4 folder on the go and everything.
If I hadn't had his original birth certificate it would have been a nie. pure luck.


----------



## brogdale (Jul 24, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> I used one to go to Germany. The passport bloke in Frankfurt looked at it disdainfully, picked my photo off (it had been fixed on with a Pritt-Stick), folded it back into the card, chucked it back through the little hole, and nodded me through.


Passport tales, eh?

When my Mrs had her passport stolen at the Gard du Nord, we had to go to the Rue du Faubourg Saint-Honoré to see Tarquin to get a ETD/"emergency passport" to get her back home. Trouble was, to get to the fucking doorbell we had to pass though a post-Sands Republican sympathy protest...ended up with an armed diplo-protection Gendarme sticking the muzzle of his machine gun into my midriff yelling pourquoi exactement into my (then pretty terrified) face.

Of course, once inside it was all tea, biscuits and portraits of Brenda and the thing I most remember was when she'd finally got the papers asking Tarquin where the nearest Metro station was and him not really grasping the concept of public transport.


----------



## Supine (Jul 24, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> That doesn't mean they need to "do nothing".
> 
> It refers to EU citizens "_lawfully_ resident in the UK", so obviously their lawful status would have to be proven. It's like saying anyone passing a driving test will automatically be granted a licence. They'd still have to apply for it and show they passed the test. And again, there were huge campaigns, TV and press, before Brexit telling them what they needed to do (it wasn't nothing). Over 5 million EU citizens have successfully applied and been granted _settled_ or _pre-settled_ status,. They all got the message just fine so nobody has been blindsided here.



so you’re defending Johnson, Patel and Gove on this? Do you know about Windrush?


----------



## pseudonarcissus (Jul 24, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> That doesn't mean they need to "do nothing".
> 
> It refers to EU citizens "_lawfully_ resident in the UK", so obviously their lawful status would have to be proven. It's like saying anyone passing a driving test will automatically be granted a licence. They'd still have to apply for it and show they passed the test. And again, there were huge campaigns, TV and press, before Brexit telling them what they needed to do (it wasn't nothing). Over 5 million EU citizens have successfully applied and been granted _settled_ or _pre-settled_ status,. They all got the message just fine so nobody has been blindsided here.


as you say, 5 million have been successful. Unfortunately it seems, again, it's the elderly and the vulnerable that have not been looked after. The very people that may not have much exposure to the media and no on-line access.


----------



## Gramsci (Jul 25, 2021)

Talking of passports East European friend of mine has gone all the way to get British Passport/  citizenship.

She finally got it. Its not cheap or easy. You have to pass an exam in Britishness. I saw some of the book she had to learn from and its embarrassing. Makes out this is  great Liberal freedom loving country. Her experience of the run up to to the EU referendum and the Brexit vote somewhat changed her mind about this country.

When she first came her she was glad to be somewhere less conservative socially than her own country in Eastern Europe. The referendum and Brexit vote changed her perception of this country.

When she was granted her new citizenship of this country she told me she now is citizen of two racist countries.

She went the whole hog as her life is here now.

But her story makes me ashamed of this country.

All the posts here about how the form filling is not that difficult. Its just remoaners making a fuss. This forgets what it feels like for many East and Southern Europeans to have to apply to stay in a country they had thought they originally had right to live in.

Not everything is about whether the bureaucracy is difficult or not.

Though to add my friend was aware of the Windrush generation and didn't trust the settled status system long term.  Which I feel is not being paranoid.


----------



## Gramsci (Jul 25, 2021)

Also on British passports. They aren't for life.

British friend of mines mum came from the Republic of Ireland in her teens.

Worked her all her life and had British passport.

Few years back went to renew it. They told her she couldn't even thought she had had one for years.

They told her to apply for Eire passport. She had right to stay her as Irish national but she wasn't British.

This as my friend said was an insult at his mum who had worked in this country all her adult life.

Point is governments change rules and procedures.


----------



## Gramsci (Jul 25, 2021)

One way to avoid some of this is to have a declaratory system. Where rights of EU citizens resident here are enshrined in law. There would be no deadline. If they need to they apply to go on a register.

But they would not potentially lose all rights due to the deadline.

But government haven't gone down this route.


----------



## Gramsci (Jul 25, 2021)

Another thing this shows is how the hostile environment is now considered common sense.

Argument by government against the Declaratory system, as I understand it, is that there was one for the Windrush generation and that meant a lot of people did not go through with it.

An issue with that was back then one could work, rent etc without a lot of the rules that landlords and employers have to apply. Making them a form of immigration control.

 So a lot of people from Windrush generation got on with their lives and didn't think about it. 

I used to know people who rented and worked here but whose immigration status was questionable. You could years ago. 

The arguments here about how the bureaucracy is fine miss that its more rigorous than decades back. As Windrush generation found.

Gradually over years the anti immigration view in this country has gained ground. With EU citizens being the latest.


----------



## ska invita (Jul 25, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> It is kind of moving - the older people now having difficulties must include a lot of widows or widowers whose partners spoke better English and took care of the paperwork.


Again, worth revisitng the links at the start of the thread as to who was expected to be particularly vulnerable in this process: children, old people, others in "precarious" positions...

And you didn't ever need a passport to come to the UK, you just need an id card... Lots of people don't have passports in the EU.


----------



## Spymaster (Jul 25, 2021)

Supine said:


> so you’re defending Johnson, Patel and Gove on this? Do you know about Windrush?


Lol, here we go. Any criticism of remoaner bollocks is a defence of the government. Typical last grasp at a straw. You came out with some nonsense about EU citizens resident in the UK being told they need do nothing. You were wrong and we’ve established that. Just accept it. The government has fucked-up loads of shit; just not what you’re suggesting in this case. Windrush wasn’t Brexit related either.


----------



## Spymaster (Jul 25, 2021)

Gramsci said:


> Also on British passports. They aren't for life.
> 
> British friend of mines mum came from the Republic of Ireland in her teens.
> 
> ...



What reason was your friend’s mum given for this? What you describe sounds effectively like having their citizenship revoked. This can only be done by the Home Secretary in exceptional circumstances.

Or had she been misbehaving? 



> When you can get or hold a British passport​You must have British nationality to apply for or hold a British passport.
> 
> Having British nationality does not guarantee you a passport. For example, you may not get a new passport (or your existing passport may be taken from you) if:
> 
> ...


----------



## Boris Sprinkler (Jul 25, 2021)

bimble said:


> The government website which lists what kind of evidence they will and won't accept from people trying to prove that they've been resident here for the required length of time includes this little list of things which are not allowed.
> 
> View attachment 280267
> 
> ...


Ah yes, official government documents. 
I tried getting a copy of my birth certificate last year so I could move my former work pension out of the UK. Should be relatively easy you should think. Given how much emphasis they place on having the correct paperwork.
There are no digital archives from 1959 to 1993. There is a charity project that they point you in the direction of (srsly), of volunteers that have tried scanning the microfiche documents into some sort of database and it is up to you to find your entry and provide them with the reference and they then get your birth certificate. Which is a mess and pretty unreadable.
Except they couldn’t. Computer says no.
Which begs the question - how can they even check the validity of passport applications made? 
In the end I got a copy from the local registrar where I was born. Beyond jokes.


----------



## Spymaster (Jul 25, 2021)

Boris Sprinkler said:


> Ah yes, official government documents.
> I tried getting a copy of my birth certificate last year so I could move my former work pension out of the UK. Should be relatively easy you should think. Given how much emphasis they place on having the correct paperwork.
> There are no digital archives from 1959 to 1993. There is a charity project that they point you in the direction of (srsly), of volunteers that have tried scanning the microfiche documents into some sort of database and it is up to you to find your entry and provide them with the reference and they then get your birth certificate. Which is a mess and pretty unreadable.
> Except they couldn’t. Computer says no.
> ...



Next time use this: Order a copy of a birth, death or marriage certificate

Takes about 5 minutes.


----------



## Boris Sprinkler (Jul 25, 2021)

Fill it out then and let me know how you get on. They will take you through the payment steps first.


----------



## pseudonarcissus (Jul 25, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Windrush wasn’t Brexit related either.


No, but it was caused by the fucking evil, adversarial, hostile workings of the Home Office. I guess from the grin you have never had to deal with the immigration system in the UK. 

We gave up and left. I dropped off an application for permanent residence in my partner's country's consulate on a Wednesday and had the approval on the Friday.


----------



## Boris Sprinkler (Jul 25, 2021)

In fact read what you link and it actually states what I just said. They link to this : FreeBMD Home Page


----------



## pseudonarcissus (Jul 25, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> What reason was your friend’s mum given for this? What you describe sounds effectively like having their citizenship revoked. This can only be done by the Home Secretary in exceptional circumstances.
> 
> Or had she been misbehaving?


Historically, a British passport was not proof of citizenship, it was just a travel document, unlike some countries. Applying for a US passport was historically more complicated than getting your GP to vouch for you, for example. It has become _de facto _proof more recently. It's one of the reasons the visitor passports disappeared.


----------



## Spymaster (Jul 25, 2021)

Boris Sprinkler said:


> Fill it out then and let me know how you get on. They will take you through the payment steps first.



Ok, done. Just received an email confirmation from the GRO. 

At what point did you have a problem? I've ordered several birth certificates from them to research the family tree. Never had any issues.


----------



## Spymaster (Jul 25, 2021)

Boris Sprinkler said:


> In fact read what you link and it actually states what I just said. They link to this : FreeBMD Home Page



No. Just click "start now". I've just done it and ordered my BC.



Maybe I just got lucky.

The service announcement referred to is about delays in processing due to C19.


----------



## pseudonarcissus (Jul 25, 2021)

British people tend to be rather smug when thinking about the bureaucracy of other countries. I was born in the UK in the late 60s. A National Insurance Card dropped through the letter box when I was 16. A year or so after, I got a green paper driving licence with no photo and valid until I was 75. Passports were easy to get; the most complicated step was getting a middle class professional to sign the back of the photo for the first one. I have been renewing full passports since I was about 19 and currently have 2 to ease the process of continuing travel when applying for visas in far off lands. I could register with a GP and no one thought of demanding any form of ID, let alone a passport.

If you have had that sort of _privileged_ life, the UK bureaucracy works fine and is very simple.

When I applied for a spousal visa for my other half, for me, everything changed. Suddenly the government is actively disbelieving you are  who you say you are. They publish lists of documents they require, but behind this there are invisible rules with extra requirements that they don't tell you about. I get the impression HO staff get a bonus for every application they reject, or kick out into the long grass.

You now need a lawyer to deal with government on your behalf. this is a fundamental change in the relationship between state and the population. If you have read the threads on the immigration system, or worse, the benefits system you should have figured this out.


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## Gramsci (Jul 25, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> What reason was your friend’s mum given for this? What you describe sounds effectively like having their citizenship revoked. This can only be done by the Home Secretary in exceptional circumstances.
> 
> Or had she been misbehaving?



Its the hostile environment.

What was OK years ago has been tightened up.

To her it felt like having her citizenship removed.

Fortunately for her she is Irish so had right to stay. But had to apply for Eire passport.

This kind of thing has happened to relative of Black British friend of mine. Also to Black British friend of mine who tried to renew their passport few years back. They had no trouble getting one in first place. When it came to renewing it they were asked for more documentation to prove right to be here.

I don't think you understand. Bureaucracy is not a fixed thing. It changes over time. The Hostile environment wasn't necessarily about changing laws in parliament. It was about changing how the officials operate.

Why some of my East European friends don't trust the settled status scheme long term.

My Spanish partner reckons it will be alright as Spain has lots of UK people resident in it so this government or any future government won't try it on in future with Spaniards resident here. Trusting ones status on this is not a good state of affairs.


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## Pickman's model (Jul 25, 2021)

Gramsci said:


> Its the hostile environment.
> 
> What was OK years ago has been tightened up.
> 
> ...


I remember being on Whitehall during the student protests and experienced activists assuring me the cops wouldn't kettle people there. So your Spanish partner should be wary of 'they wouldn't do this', all too often they will do just that. If the government will go for something so stupid as the form of brexit they negotiated, if they will unapologetically kill tens of thousands of people with their fucked up covid policies, then basing they wouldn't do that on loads of aging UK people in Spain seems to me over-optimistic


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## hot air baboon (Jul 25, 2021)

Gramsci said:


> Talking of passports East European friend of mine has gone all the way to get British Passport/  citizenship.
> 
> She finally got it. Its not cheap or easy. You have to pass an exam in Britishness. I saw some of the book she had to learn from and its embarrassing. Makes out this is  great Liberal freedom loving country. Her experience of the run up to to the EU referendum and the Brexit vote somewhat changed her mind about this country.
> 
> ...


Big of her to slum it here with all us racists. Hopefully the little perks like free medical treatment for life will offset the shame of having to rub shoulders with us


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## editor (Jul 25, 2021)

hot air baboon said:


> Big of her to slum it here with all us racists. Hopefully the little perks like free medical treatment for life will offset the shame of having to rub shoulders with us


You sound awfully right wing.


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## bimble (Jul 25, 2021)

hot air baboon said:


> Big of her to slum it here with all us racists. Hopefully the little perks like free medical treatment for life will offset the shame of having to rub shoulders with us


You seem nice. Do you by any chance feel like if people have a bad word to say about this great country of ours they should fuck off back to where they came from?


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## pseudonarcissus (Jul 25, 2021)

hot air baboon said:


> Big of her to slum it here with all us racists. Hopefully the little perks like free medical treatment for life will offset the shame of having to rub shoulders with us


Medical treatment is paid for from taxation. Most immigrants pay tax. It’s not free. It’s not a gift bestowed by the beneficent (white) rich English people.

The concept of the Life in the U.K. test is ok. I’m an immigrant and I’m interested in the history and culture of the country I’m living in. 
The concept of an English language  requirement is fine as well.

It’s the _implementation _that is hostile. Unless you have first-hand experience of it you really have no idea what it is like. 

You don’t understand the rights you have lost. Like the right to fall in love with someone of a different nationality and to live together in your home country without a horrific bureaucratic process.


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## Boris Sprinkler (Jul 25, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> No. Just click "start now". I've just done it and ordered my BC.
> 
> View attachment 280439
> 
> ...



Was the dob prior to 1957 or after 2005?
Underneath the corona announcement it states
“ Online Indexes
We are currently undertaking a rolling programme to put more of our indexes online. Birth indexes from 2005 to 2020 are now available to view. We will notify you when any further indexes are added.”
So you are forced to use the bmd archive


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## Spymaster (Jul 25, 2021)

Boris Sprinkler said:


> Was the dob proper to 1957 or after 2005?
> Underneath the corona announcement it states
> “ Online Indexes
> We are currently undertaking a rolling programme to put more of our indexes online. Birth indexes from 2005 to 2020 are now available to view. We will notify you when any further indexes are added.”



No. 1967.

I used the standard service. I think perhaps you’ve misunderstood. That reads to me that you can’t view the records online or download them. It doesn’t mean you can’t apply for and receive a paper copy.


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## brogdale (Jul 25, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> No. 1967.


Shouldn't you be on one of those younger people's forums!


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## Spymaster (Jul 25, 2021)

Gramsci said:


> Its the hostile environment.
> 
> What was OK years ago has been tightened up.
> 
> ...


Yeah, ok. Bit what reason did they give for not renewing the passport?


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## Gramsci (Jul 25, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Yeah, ok. Bit what reason did they give for not renewing the passport?



I've answered your question.


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## Gramsci (Jul 25, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Yeah, ok. Bit what reason did they give for not renewing the passport?



Kind of thought I'd given you the reason. This problem with renewing UK passports has happened to one person I know personally and one whose Mother was refused renewal last years since Theresa May's Hostile environment.

They hadn't been involved in any criminal activity if that's what your asking.

The one I know personally was refused renewal until they provided further documentation to prove right to be here. Fortunately her Father kept everything and had the paper document required. Luckily for her and her kids. Cost her a missed holiday. Previous to this she'd not had a problem.


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## wemakeyousoundb (Jul 25, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Passport tales, eh?
> 
> When my Mrs had her passport stolen at the Gard du Nord, we had to go to the Rue du Faubourg Saint-Honoré to see Tarquin to get a ETD/"emergency passport" to get her back home. Trouble was, to get to the fucking doorbell we had to pass though a post-Sands Republican sympathy protest...ended up with an armed diplo-protection Gendarme sticking the muzzle of his machine gun into my midriff yelling pourquoi exactement into my (then pretty terrified) face.
> 
> Of course, once inside it was all tea, biscuits and portraits of Brenda and the thing I most remember was when she'd finally got the papers asking Tarquin where the nearest Metro station was and him not really grasping the concept of public transport.


passport tales
the 4th time I went through southampton immigration with my freshly expired french passport (still valid for 6 month as proof of ID) a few weeks after 9/11 I was told in quite short words that "you won't get in next time", that's after I had to take my shoes off to prove there weren't any "explosives" in there...


Gramsci said:


> Talking of passports East European friend of mine has gone all the way to get British Passport/  citizenship.
> 
> She finally got it. Its not cheap or easy. You have to pass an exam in Britishness. I saw some of the book she had to learn from and its embarrassing. Makes out this is  great Liberal freedom loving country. Her experience of the run up to to the EU referendum and the Brexit vote somewhat changed her mind about this country.
> 
> ...


A german friend of mine who arrived a few weeks before me in the UK got her citizenship a few weeks back for the same reason, I probably would apply but can't afford it so will have to deal with whatever changes may come when they do happen.


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## Spymaster (Jul 26, 2021)

Gramsci said:


> Kind of thought I'd given you the reason. This problem with renewing UK passports has happened to one person I know personally and one whose Mother was refused renewal last years since Theresa May's Hostile environment.
> 
> They hadn't been involved in any criminal activity if that's what your asking.
> 
> The one I know personally was refused renewal until they provided further documentation to prove right to be here. Fortunately her Father kept everything and had the paper document required. Luckily for her and her kids. Cost her a missed holiday. Previous to this she'd not had a problem.


Ok, so the person you know, actually _did_ get their passport renewed after providing additional documentation. What about the mother of your friend? What was the reason for refusal given to her? They didn’t say “we’re not renewing your passport as part of Theresa May’s hostile environment” did they?


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## Gramsci (Jul 26, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Ok, so the person you know actually _did_ get their passport renewed after providing the required documentation. What about the mother of your friend? What was the reason for refusal given to her?



I'm finding your attitude somewhat irritating. 

So my friend did get their passport renewed. You think it was OK she had to through that?


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## Spymaster (Jul 26, 2021)

Gramsci said:


> I'm finding your attitude somewhat irritating.
> 
> So my friend did get their passport renewed. You think it was OK she had to through that?


I’m sorry you’re finding it irritating but it’s important. I also hold an Irish passport as well as a British one. So do others that I know. Are we at risk of not getting our Brit ones renewed too?

As far as your friend is concerned, I don’t know what they went through or if it was ok. So far you’ve said they were asked for additional documentation, provided it, and got the passport. To make a call on whether that was ok, we’d need to know why they were asked. My guess is that something else they provided was deficient or it was some kind of random enhanced procedure, or maybe a requirement change between them getting the first passport and the second.

Your friend’s mum’s situation sounds extraordinary so I’m simply asking what she was told. I’m not questioning your honesty but I don’t think your friend (or his mum) have passed on the full facts.


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## Gramsci (Jul 26, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> I’m sorry you’re finding it irritating but it’s important. I hold an Irish passport as well as a British one. So do others that I know. Are we at risk of not getting our Brit ones renewed too?
> 
> As far as your friend is concerned, I don’t know what they went through or if it was ok. So far you’ve said they were asked for addition documentation, provided it, and got the passport. To make a call on whether that was ok, we’d need to know why they were asked, my guess is that something else they provided was deficient.
> 
> Your friend’s mum’s situation sounds extraordinary so I’m simply asking what she was told. I’m not questioning your honesty bu I don’t think your friend, or his mum, have passed on the full facts.



Its called the Hostile environment. You're falling for it. If someone is asked for more info you (not we) don't have an issue with it. There must be some reason I haven't tried hard enough to find. I've explained that this person had no problems before. 

On my friend with Irish mother. That's what he told me. I don't know more. She was born in Eire but spent her life here.


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## Spymaster (Jul 26, 2021)

Gramsci said:


> Its called the Hostile environment. You're falling for it. If someone is asked for more info you (not we) don't have an issue with it. There must be some reason I haven't tried hard enough to find. I've explained that this person had no problems before.
> 
> On my friend with Irish mother. That's what he told me. I don't know more. She was born in Eire but spent her life here.


Ok.


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## bimble (Jul 26, 2021)

This one here is probably favourite example I’ve seen of the home office immigration system being completely functional and fine.


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## Spymaster (Jul 26, 2021)

bimble said:


> This one here is probably favourite example I’ve seen of the home office immigration system being completely functional and fine.




 I think Bernie's confusing "Home Office letter" with 'letter to Viz'.


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## Spymaster (Jul 26, 2021)

.


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## Spymaster (Jul 26, 2021)

.


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## Supine (Aug 1, 2021)

And so it begins









						EU citizens who applied to stay in Britain facing threat of deportation
					

The Home Office appears to be in breach of the Brexit withdrawal agreement, says legal charity




					www.theguardian.com


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## Gramsci (Aug 1, 2021)

Read that this morning. As per usual denial from Home Office its happening.


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## T & P (Oct 12, 2021)

An EU national friend of a colleague at work recently travelled abroad to see her family- the first time out of the UK since Brexit. Despite having full settled status (20 years living here, British husband and children, mortgage, job, the lot...) she had a bit of a palaver trying to clear immigration at the airport when she returned. She happened to have renewed her passport since her settled status was approved, and apparently that is too much for the Home Office to handle, so the computer kept saying settled status not confirmed. Eventually they worked out the issue, and said she needed to have registered the new passport with The Man before travelling.

So a tip to anyone else who might have renewed their passport since settling: you better let Patel and her Stasi border police immigration officers know your new passport details before travelling.

Ain't Brexit a fresh of fresh air


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## ska invita (Dec 14, 2021)

important case








						Home Office sued by watchdog set up to protect post-Brexit rights of EU citizens
					

Statutory body says 2.5 million EU nationals settled in UK have been put at automatic risk of losing rights




					www.theguardian.com
				





> The Independent Monitoring Authority has launched judicial review proceedings on the grounds that 2.5 million EU citizens who have been granted pre-settled status have been put at automatic risk of losing rights to live, work or rent, or being deported by the home office.
> 
> EU nationals and their families who have been in the UK for more than five years get settled status under the Home Office immigration scheme set up for Brexit but those that have been in the country fewer than five years get pre-settled and must apply again for settled status.
> 
> ...


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## Dom Traynor (Dec 15, 2021)

T & P said:


> An EU national friend of a colleague at work recently travelled abroad to see her family- the first time out of the UK since Brexit. Despite having full settled status (20 years living here, British husband and children, mortgage, job, the lot...) she had a bit of a palaver trying to clear immigration at the airport when she returned. She happened to have renewed her passport since her settled status was approved, and apparently that is too much for the Home Office to handle, so the computer kept saying settled status not confirmed. Eventually they worked out the issue, and said she needed to have registered the new passport with The Man before travelling.
> 
> So a tip to anyone else who might have renewed their passport since settling: you better let Patel and her Stasi border police immigration officers know your new passport details before travelling.
> 
> Ain't Brexit a fresh of fresh air


That's pretty standard to be fair I am a permanent resident where I live and when I replaced my British passport with an Irish one I had to get my PR visa updated with the new passport details or I wouldn't have been able to get back in easily if I left. It makes sense tbh.


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## tim (Dec 15, 2021)

Dom Traynor said:


> That's pretty standard to be fair I am a permanent resident where I live and when I replaced my British passport with an Irish one I had to get my PR visa updated with the new passport details or I wouldn't have been able to get back in easily if I left. It makes sense tbh.




It makes sense that the system might find the fact that you have a new nationality a bit perplexing. It shouldn't be such a challenge recognising that you've renewed an expired passport but have retained the same nationality.


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## Dom Traynor (Dec 15, 2021)

tim said:


> It makes sense that the system might find the fact that you have a new nationality a bit perplexing. It shouldn't be such a challenge recognising that you've renewed an expired passport but have retained the same nationality.


Normally your passport expiry and number are key parts of these things its common sense


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## Gramsci (Dec 22, 2022)

ska invita said:


> important case
> 
> 
> 
> ...











						Brexit rule that makes EU citizens reapply to stay in UK is unlawful, court says
					

Judge says Home Office rule that puts those with ‘pre-settled status’ at risk of deportation is ‘wrong in law’




					www.theguardian.com
				




Judiciary have said that this "pre settled" status and the distinction between this and "settled status" is bollox.

So government attempt to make EU citizens residing here jump through two hoops is now unlawful.

I expect this right wing government will appeal.


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