# cardiff's golden jubilee: but where was the previous capital?



## Pickman's model (Dec 20, 2005)

i see that cardiff's celebrating its fiftieth year of being the welsh capital: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/4544472.stm

i was surprised to learn that as i thought that cardiff had always, forever and a day, been the capital of wales. so, where was the previous capital and what possessed "them" to move it to cardiff?


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## WasGeri (Dec 20, 2005)

Pickmans, you just read my mind! I was going to ask the very same thing...


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## Belushi (Dec 20, 2005)

We didnt have a capital as such, not having any cities until relatively recently. Machynlleth was Owain Glyndwrs capital and where the Welsh Parliament he called met, and Ludlow at one point during the Midle Ages.


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## Pickman's model (Dec 20, 2005)

so with those two fine places having 'form' (or pedigree), why make cardiff the capital?


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## Belushi (Dec 20, 2005)

Pickman's model said:
			
		

> so with those two fine places having 'form' (or pedigree), why make cardiff the capital?



I presume because it was the biggest and most important City. The Welsh Office etc were based in Cardiff prior to it actually becoming the Capital.


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## editor (Dec 20, 2005)

Pickman's model said:
			
		

> so with those two fine places having 'form' (or pedigree), why make cardiff the capital?


Probably something to do with it being one of the world's biggest ports, the city with the largest population in Wales, its closer proximity to London, its excellent transport links and - thanks to the coal trade - it being the commercial powerhouse of Wales.


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## Pickman's model (Dec 20, 2005)

from 1949:


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## editor (Dec 20, 2005)

At the turn of the 20th century, Cardiff was a bigger port than New York!


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## editor (Dec 20, 2005)

Pickman's model said:
			
		

> from 1949:


Looks like we had to really grovel to get our capital then.


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## Belushi (Dec 20, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> Looks like we had to really grovel to get our capital then.



I take it you refused to sign the petition then Ed


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## editor (Dec 20, 2005)

Belushi said:
			
		

> I take it you refused to sign the petition then Ed


Instead of grovelling to that crowned fucker, we should have called out to Owain Glyndwr to return from wherever he's been having a pint and taken back _all_ of our lands.


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## fanta (Dec 20, 2005)

Ungrateful bastards.


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## nogojones (Dec 20, 2005)

Pickman's model said:
			
		

> i see that cardiff's celebrating its fiftieth year of being the welsh capital: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/4544472.stm
> 
> i was surprised to learn that as i thought that cardiff had always, forever and a day, been the capital of wales. so, where was the previous capital and what possessed "them" to move it to cardiff?



...because it's the only part of Wales that is at all civilised.


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## Brockway (Dec 20, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> Instead of grovelling to that crowned fucker, we should have called out to Owain Glyndwr to return from wherever he's been having a pint and taken back _all_ of our lands.



Before the English allowed us to have Monmouthshire back as part of Wales both Rumney (Cardiff eastern suburb) and St Mellons were officially part of England.


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## editor (Dec 20, 2005)

That reminds me... <editor rummages about in box> ... here's this cool tin box that my granddad gave me commemerating the 1907 visit of King Edward and Queen Mary to Keyaaaardiff.

It came with two medals too (I've still got one somewhere). Wonder if it's worth anything? (not that I'm going to flog it).


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## Udo Erasmus (Dec 20, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> At the turn of the 20th century, Cardiff was a bigger port than New York!



In the same period, South Wales had a similar rate of immigration to the US with a huge influx of migrants


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## RubberBuccaneer (Dec 20, 2005)

there's an article in the Echo today about it as luck would have it, to go with an improved national profile , politicians lobbied for a capital, it went to a vote between Cardiff , Caernafon,and Aberystwyth.
For years the issue was considered too sticky for fear of upsetting other towns.

I wish someone else got it and all the crap buildings that go with it.


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## Brockway (Dec 20, 2005)

Udo Erasmus said:
			
		

> In the same period, South Wales had a similar rate of immigration to the US with a huge influx of migrants



Anybody know why there is such a large Italian community in Cardiff/South Wales? What were they fleeing? Or was it purely economic?  

PS Did you know that the first mosque in Britain was set up in Cardiff in 1860? For this reason alone we deserve to be the capital.


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## Pickman's model (Dec 20, 2005)

not a lot of people know that in the early 1950s, aberwrystwyth was in with a fair chance of becoming welsh capital -- till the mayor of aberwrystwyth chucked down the front of anthony eden's wife's blouse at a garden party at buckingham palace.


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## Pickman's model (Dec 20, 2005)

Brockway said:
			
		

> PS Did you know that the first mosque in Britain was set up in Cardiff in 1860? For this reason alone we deserve to be the capital.


i don't see why you intend that to impress people.


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## Dai Sheep (Dec 20, 2005)

The cheek of that newspaper article...

the Kings 'subjects'...the fucking nerve of some people.

The royal family are in-bred, over-priveleged twats, who have done nil for Wales, yet the ignorant masses still come out waving Union Jacks in their thousands when they visit. Republic all the way! - Welsh republic preferably.


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## RubberBuccaneer (Dec 20, 2005)

Pickman's model said:
			
		

> i don't see why you intend that to impress people.



It whows a tolerance to new immigrants that you could argue modern capials need.


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## Pickman's model (Dec 20, 2005)

RubberBuccaneer said:
			
		

> It whows a tolerance to new immigrants that you could argue modern capials need.


it's interesting that newspaper reports of the 1950s do not highlight the mosque's role in securing capital status for the newcastle of wales.


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## Brockway (Dec 20, 2005)

Pickman's model said:
			
		

> it's interesting that newspaper reports of the 1950s do not highlight the mosque's role in securing capital status for the newcastle of wales.



Is it? I never said that the mosque had any role in securing capital status for Cardiff.


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## Karac (Dec 20, 2005)

Brockway said:
			
		

> Anybody know why there is such a large Italian community in Cardiff/South Wales? What were they fleeing? Or was it purely economic?


Dont know if this is exactly true-but the story i heard was that unscrupulous Ship-owners would agree to take hard-up Italians to New York and then dump them off in Cardiff instead.
Apparently a fair few of these new arrivals were none the wiser for many years.


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## 1927 (Dec 20, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> At the turn of the 20th century, Cardiff was a bigger port than New York!



At that time Barry was more important in terms of trade than New York. What went wrong?


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## neprimerimye (Dec 21, 2005)

Karac said:
			
		

> Dont know if this is exactly true-but the story i heard was that unscrupulous Ship-owners would agree to take hard-up Italians to New York and then dump them off in Cardiff instead.
> Apparently a fair few of these new arrivals were none the wiser for many years.



Thats probably a myth.

From talking to a fair few Italian Welsh over the years it would appear that most of them walked here. As far as i know there were no direct sailings from Wales to Italy in any case. (Though pre-1914 Cardiff ships did get all over from Fray Bentos to Philadelphia to Sebastopol to St Petersburg and thats just the cities I know for a fact my Grandfather visited.)

Many Jews fleeing Eastern Europe on the other hand were landed in London and told it was New York.


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## Brockway (Dec 21, 2005)

Yeah but with regards the Italians was it simple economic migrancy or was there something going on in Italy that caused the exodus?

The jewish writer/documentary film-maker Jon Ronson who is from Cardiff, says his Lithuanian forefathers were escaping pogroms in the east. They were on their way to New York but simply ran out of money, so ended up staying in Cardiff. I'm sure a lot of people got to Cardiff intending to go to New York, found work and decided to stay. Certainly the Cardiff to New York shipping run was very active (see Eugene O'Neill's _Bound East For Cardiff_).

One of my grandfather's was in the merchant navy and we donated his log books to the Industrial and Maritime Museum when it was in Cardiff. Unfortunately the museum has now moved to Swansea and taken our family heritage with it!


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## RubberBuccaneer (Dec 21, 2005)

Brockway said:
			
		

> Yeah but with regards the Italians was it simple economic migrancy or was there something going on in Italy that caused the exodus?
> 
> The jewish writer/documentary film-maker Jon Ronson who is from Cardiff, says his Lithuanian forefathers were escaping pogroms in the east. They were on their way to New York but simply ran out of money, so ended up staying in Cardiff. I'm sure a lot of people got to Cardiff intending to go to New York, found work and decided to stay. Certainly the Cardiff to New York shipping run was very active (see Eugene O'Neill's _Bound East For Cardiff_).
> 
> One of my grandfather's was in the merchant navy and we donated his log books to the Industrial and Maritime Museum when it was in Cardiff. Unfortunately the museum has now moved to Swansea and taken our family heritage with it!




I feel a commando raid coming on!

The older Italians in Splott seem to have come after the war, so it may well have been economic then.


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## Belushi (Dec 21, 2005)

> Anybody know why there is such a large Italian community in Cardiff/South Wales? What were they fleeing? Or was it purely economic?



The Italian Cafe was a feature of the Valleys communities for generations, there are still a few around like Segadellis in Crynant in the Dulais Valley.

There were also many Spanish immigrants who came to work in the mines, their descendants still live in villages like Abercrave in the Upper Swansea Valley.


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## editor (Dec 21, 2005)

There's some stuff about the Italian immigration into south Wales in the Big Pit museum, btw.


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## Belushi (Dec 21, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> There's some stuff about the Italian immigration into south Wales in the Big Pit museum, btw.



I've never actrually been there so I must go next time I'm back in the old country. There was an interesting doc on Radio 4 last year about the Italians in S. Wales.


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## Brockway (Dec 21, 2005)

The Valleys Italians were certainly well established by the 1930s. You can read about them in books by Gwyn Thomas when he talks about the Depression.

There was a 'Spanish Town' in Cardiff docks - George Street behind The Packet apparently. There's a good piece on it in Neil Sinclair's _The Tiger Bay Story_, a great book you can get from the Butetown History and Art Museum.


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## Belushi (Dec 21, 2005)

> The Valleys Italians were certainly well established by the 1930s. You can read about them in books by Gwyn Thomas when he talks about the Depression.



My Dad tells me that in Abercrave they were treated with suspicion at first until one of them stabbed a bullying Mine Manager, after that they were a valued part of the community


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## editor (Dec 21, 2005)

Belushi said:
			
		

> I've never actrually been there so I must go next time I'm back in the old country.


It is a fantastic museum and well worth a visit.


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## niclas (Dec 21, 2005)

The Spanish community in Abercraf was quite distinct. From "Miners Against Fascism" it appears they fled after the failed Asturian workers' rebellion in 1934 (syndicalist miners put down by Franco) and - being miners - settled in the anthracite belt in W Wales.

2 of the community were killed after they went back to Spain to fight Franco with the International Brigade.


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## Udo Erasmus (Dec 21, 2005)

RubberBuccaneer said:
			
		

> It whows a tolerance to new immigrants that you could argue modern capials need.



We all support tolerance, but don't forget that in 1919 Cardiff saw "race riots" or more acurately mass racist attacks against these same immigrants and settler populations -  Good account in Peter Fryer's excellent history of black people in britain - "Staying Power"


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## Belushi (Dec 21, 2005)

niclas said:
			
		

> The Spanish community in Abercraf was quite distinct. From "Miners Against Fascism" it appears they fled after the failed Asturian workers' rebellion in 1934 (syndicalist miners put down by Franco) and - being miners - settled in the anthracite belt in W Wales.
> 
> 2 of the community were killed after they went back to Spain to fight Franco with the International Brigade.



Aye, my grandad knew them both, one of them was a Zamora, I think can't recall the other ones name.


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## Brockway (Dec 21, 2005)

Udo Erasmus said:
			
		

> We all support tolerance, but don't forget that in 1919 Cardiff saw "race riots" or more acurately mass racist attacks against these same immigrants and settler populations -  Good account in Peter Fryer's excellent history of black people in britain - "Staying Power"



I recently stumbled across the grave of the arab guy who died in the 1919 race riots. It refers to the incident on his gravestone. In newspaper accounts of the time he is referred to as: "and an arab". There were 3 deaths - 2 white men, 1 black. The arab man was called Mohammed Abdullah.

There were anti-Chinese riots in Cardiff in 1912 and, as has been discussed on here before, the 'Johnny Hop' incident of 1922 which was also deeply racist.

Yup, _Staying Power _ is a good read.


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## Belushi (Dec 21, 2005)

There was also anti-Jewish riots in the valleys at the same period, not sure why.


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## RubberBuccaneer (Dec 21, 2005)

Brockway said:
			
		

> I recently stumbled across the grave of the arab guy who died in the 1919 race riots. It refers to the incident on his gravestone. In newspaper accounts of the time he is referred to as: "and an arab". There were 3 deaths - 2 white men, 1 black. The arab man was called Mohammed Abdullah.
> 
> There were anti-Chinese riots in Cardiff in 1912 and, as has been discussed on here before, the 'Johnny Hop' incident of 1922 which was also deeply racist.
> 
> Yup, _Staying Power _ is a good read.



And Irish race riots ( no need for prolonged debate whether being Irish is a race ). The site below is intersting for some history.
Cardiff police 
It does say you can book to go round their museum, anyone been.
I'm a bit scared but would like to.


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## Brockway (Dec 21, 2005)

I think it was near Bargoed. A Welsh pogrom!

There has been loads of stuff written on Welsh/Jewish links and supposed similarities between the two peoples. From us being the one of lost tribes of Israel to 90% of the Treforest industrial estate being taken up after the war by Jewish entrepreneurs fleeing Nazi Germany.


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## editor (Dec 21, 2005)

Belushi said:
			
		

> There was also anti-Jewish riots in the valleys at the same period, not sure why.


There was an old film about that, where a Welsh woman fell in love with a Jewish bloke as the town was busy rioting.


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## neprimerimye (Dec 22, 2005)

Brockway said:
			
		

> Yeah but with regards the Italians was it simple economic migrancy or was there something going on in Italy that caused the exodus?
> 
> The jewish writer/documentary film-maker Jon Ronson who is from Cardiff, says his Lithuanian forefathers were escaping pogroms in the east. They were on their way to New York but simply ran out of money, so ended up staying in Cardiff. I'm sure a lot of people got to Cardiff intending to go to New York, found work and decided to stay. Certainly the Cardiff to New York shipping run was very active (see Eugene O'Neill's _Bound East For Cardiff_).
> 
> One of my grandfather's was in the merchant navy and we donated his log books to the Industrial and Maritime Museum when it was in Cardiff. Unfortunately the museum has now moved to Swansea and taken our family heritage with it!



As far as I'm aware the migration of Italians to South Wales was for economic reasons. Most coming from the underdeveloped south. At the same time there was massive migration to the then industrializing north of Italy. And in the 1930's a pretty large chunk of the French working class was Italian (or, similar to UK now, Polish). Why a relatively small group decided to come to South Wales and then spread out across the entire region I have no idea. Some bright young thing will write a Phd one day no doubt.


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## editor (Dec 22, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> There was an old film about that, where a Welsh woman fell in love with a Jewish bloke as the town was busy rioting.


<finishes research....>

It was called Solomon and Gaenor, featured Ioan Gruffudd, was recorded in three languages - Welsh, English and Yiddish - and nominated for an Oscar!

Anyone seen it? It's great!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/643986.stm


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## neprimerimye (Dec 22, 2005)

Udo Erasmus said:
			
		

> We all support tolerance, but don't forget that in 1919 Cardiff saw "race riots" or more acurately mass racist attacks against these same immigrants and settler populations -  Good account in Peter Fryer's excellent history of black people in britain - "Staying Power"



Which goes to disprove your statement that 'we all support tolerance'. Obviously the men rioting were not particularly tolerant.

It also shows the limitations of trades unionism. Given that these riots were formented by a trade union leader.


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## editor (Dec 22, 2005)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> Which goes to disprove your statement that 'we all support tolerance'. Obviously the men rioting were not particularly tolerant.


That all depends on the reasons behind the riot, surely?


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## pembrokestephen (Dec 22, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> Probably something to do with it being one of the world's biggest ports, the city with the largest population in Wales, its closer proximity to London, its excellent transport links and - thanks to the coal trade - it being the commercial powerhouse of Wales.


But apart from THAT, why is Cardiff the capital of Wales...   

(and what have the Romans ever done for us?)


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## phildwyer (Dec 22, 2005)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> Many Jews fleeing Eastern Europe on the other hand were landed in London and told it was New York.



I met some Chınese guys ın Haıtı who,d been dropped there by snakeheads and told ıt was Mıamı!


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## RubberBuccaneer (Dec 22, 2005)

Karac said:
			
		

> Dont know if this is exactly true-but the story i heard was that unscrupulous Ship-owners would agree to take hard-up Italians to New York and then dump them off in Cardiff instead.
> Apparently a fair few of these new arrivals were none the wiser for many years.




Unscruplous Ships Capt.. slaps head and says ' I thought you said Newport!'


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## 1927 (Dec 22, 2005)

RubberBuccaneer said:
			
		

> I feel a commando raid coming on!
> 
> The older Italians in Splott seem to have come after the war, so it may well have been economic then.



I know a Sicilian fmaily in Cardiff. All the brothers came over after the war to work in the steel works in Port Talbot. They were on the train and seeing the steel works at eats Moors thought they had arrived,and got off the train at Cardiff Central and never left. Boy did they have a lucky escape!


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## RubberBuccaneer (Dec 22, 2005)

1927 said:
			
		

> I know a Sicilian fmaily in Cardiff. All the brothers came over after the war to work in the steel works in Port Talbot. They were on the train and seeing the steel works at eats Moors thought they had arrived,and got off the train at Cardiff Central and never left. Boy did they have a lucky escape!



Eats Moors ??? are you some sort of crusader?


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## Belushi (Dec 22, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> <finishes research....>
> 
> It was called Solomon and Gaenor, featured Ioan Gruffudd, was recorded in three languages - Welsh, English and Yiddish - and nominated for an Oscar!
> 
> ...



Hadn't heard of it, I will have to get hold of a copy.


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## RubberBuccaneer (Dec 22, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> That all depends on the reasons behind the riot, surely?



The Chinese ones were because returning sailors/soldiers from WW1 found that their jobs had been given to Chinamen ( who weren't allowed to servs ), and some of 'our' ladies had shacked up with them   Scandalous


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## editor (Dec 22, 2005)

RubberBuccaneer said:
			
		

> The Chinese ones were because returning sailors/soldiers from WW1 found that their jobs had been given to Chinamen ( who weren't allowed to servs ), and some of 'our' ladies had shacked up with them   Scandalous


I think I'd be a smidgeon above 'slightly irate' if I came back from a shitty time fighting in WW1 to find my job gone and my missus shacked up with another fella too.


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## RubberBuccaneer (Dec 22, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> I think I'd be a smidgeon above 'slightly irate' if I came back from a shitty time fighting in WW1 to find my job gone and my missus shacked up with another fella too.



True, although they're classed as race riots, the underlying cause I feel is more likely to be a social one than pure hatred of the Chinese.


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## Udo Erasmus (Dec 22, 2005)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> Which goes to disprove your statement that 'we all support tolerance'. Obviously the men rioting were not particularly tolerant.
> 
> It also shows the limitations of trades unionism. Given that these riots were formented by a trade union leader.



The "we" in question, was those on writing on this thread - not society at large.


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## RubberBuccaneer (Dec 22, 2005)

Regarding the we, yes Cardiff has had problems, but they eased off with the passing of the years, time and integration are the factors here.
By the time Cardiff was made capital they were in the past, and although I'm not saying in 1955 we were perfect (or are now ), Notting Hill was still to come for other places.


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## lewislewis (Dec 22, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> Probably something to do with it being one of the world's biggest ports, the city with the largest population in Wales, its closer proximity to London, its excellent transport links and - thanks to the coal trade - it being the commercial powerhouse of Wales.



Indeed editor, could say the commercial powerhouse of the world in terms of coal trade.


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## Ben Bore (Dec 22, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> It was called Solomon and Gaenor, featured Ioan Gruffudd, was recorded in three languages - Welsh, English and Yiddish - and nominated for an Oscar!
> 
> Anyone seen it? It's great!







			
				Belushi said:
			
		

> Hadn't heard of it, I will have to get hold of a copy.



Yeah I've seen it.  It's just been released again in a box set with 3 other Welsh films (including Hedd Wyn) if anyone's interested.  See this posting  on me blog


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## neprimerimye (Dec 22, 2005)

RubberBuccaneer said:
			
		

> True, although they're classed as race riots, the underlying cause I feel is more likely to be a social one than pure hatred of the Chinese.



They were race riots in the classic sense of that term. Racists, in this case the local leaders of the NUS, organised a mob to attack minority groups while the police stood aside.

The immediate issue was the depression in trade caused by the end of the Imperialist World War but the underlying cause was the racist job trusting favoured by the NUS. If and when Lascar and Chinese labour was employed it was at lower rates of pay hence the felt need for a whites only policy.

The trouble is that such job trusting can only ever be carried out by a policy of class collaboration between the union and the employers. Which may work fine when theere is a labour shortage, as in war conditions, but is otherwise to the detriment of the workers. Similar policies led to anti-Chinese race riots on the West Coast of the USA (thus Jack Londons racism btw) and led to the White Australia policy.

What the NUS should have done is fight for equal wages for all sailors thus reducing the incentive for employers to hire cheaper labour. Instead they went in for class collaboration. Which is how we get to the situation whereby Britain no longer has a merchant fleet. Rather ludicrous for a set of off shore islands really.


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## editor (Dec 22, 2005)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> The immediate issue was the depression in trade caused by the end of the Imperialist World War but the underlying cause was the racist job trusting favoured by the NUS.


A little more context, perhaps: 





> In Cardiff in 1919 the black population was about 3,000, of which about 1,200 were unemployed merchant seamen, laid off at the end of World War I. Most of these people lived in the Bute Town neighborhood, close to the city's docks....
> 
> On the days preceding the Cardiff riots, there were violent incidents in Newport and Cadoxton resulting from racist and accusatory comments made by whites.
> The atmosphere was charged due to both racism and the economic hardship of these men who had just returned from fighting a brutal war on behalf of Britain, yet received no compensation or gratitude from the government or its citizens.
> http://diaspora.northwestern.edu/mbin/WebObjects/DiasporaX.woa/wa/displayArticle?atomid=621





> According to the Head Constable's report on the Cardiff riots, the confrontation ...had begun "when a brake containing a number of coloured men and white women, apparently returning from an excursion, attracted a mixed crowd."16
> 
> "About 10 o'clock a wordy argument between blacks and whites ended in the blacks, who were in superior numbers, setting upon one of the white men, who was thrown to the ground and brutally kicked."17
> The White man was rescued by a policeman "and the blacks, seeing that the anger of the whites had now been roused, bolted precipitately."
> ...


 It was also, apparently, 80 degree in the shade on the day...


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## RubberBuccaneer (Dec 22, 2005)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> They were race riots in the classic sense of that term. Racists, in this case the local leaders of the NUS, organised a mob to attack minority groups while the police stood aside.
> 
> The immediate issue was the depression in trade caused by the end of the Imperialist World War but the underlying cause was the racist job trusting favoured by the NUS. If and when Lascar and Chinese labour was employed it was at lower rates of pay hence the felt need for a whites only policy.
> 
> ...



Bit like the Irish ferries today, undercutting a fair trade.

I still say that the hatred wasn't a hatred purely on race alone but deperate men being misled and enduring hard times.


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## neprimerimye (Dec 22, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> A little more context, perhaps:
> It was also, apparently, 80 degree in the shade on the day...



Your 'additional context' seems designed to 'explain' the reprehensible actions of the rioters. The text you paste talks of them returning from fighting a brutal war on behalf of Britain. Leaving aside the point that the war was fought not for 'Britain' but for the beneft of the boss class and the boss class alone this adds nothing to my comments. The fact remains that one group of workers was pitted against another to the detriment of both.

I should add that I was once told by a former sailor present in Cardiff during the events that many if not most of the rioters were not sailors but 'bad types'. This is evidence I tend to believe as the man concerned was solidly Labour and he may also have been sympathetic to the aims of the rioters. The man concerned died however before I had any detailed knowledge of the riot and I only discussed it with him the once over 30 years ago now.


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## editor (Dec 22, 2005)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> The fact remains that one group of workers was pitted against another to the detriment of both..


Err, a large chunk of them weren't workers. They were unemployed.

And as far as most people were concerned, they _were_ fighting for Britain, and your attempts to project your hindsight-laden political perspective on a historic event isn't particularly enlightening.


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## RubberBuccaneer (Dec 22, 2005)

Just browsing for more on this period and found this, they look like witness statements and police reports from the riot in 1919 
bit in depth but looks interesting


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## neprimerimye (Dec 22, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> Err, a large chunk of them weren't workers. They were unemployed.
> 
> And as far as most people were concerned, they _were_ fighting for Britain, and your attempts to project your hindsight-laden political perspective on a historic event isn't particularly enlightening.



Unemployed workers I suspect. Or are you suggesting they were unemployed ship owners?

That most of the men who fought in the First Imperialist World War thought they were fighting for 'their country' is a fact. It is not a fact that they fought for Britain other than in the sense that they wore the uniform of the British state. The false conscisouness of those concerned does not however mean that they had any more material interest in fighting Germany than you or I would in fighting in Iraq.

It is also a fact that these same men were then thrown out of work for their trouble. While the ship owners, mine owners and the rest of the gang of capitalists went about their busines of exploiting the men who had fought and the colonial possessions they fought for control over. Iraq comes to mind funnilly enough.

Which insight is neither mine nor a matter of hindsight but was common to the internationalist socialists who opposed that war at the time. You may wish to consult the files of the South Wales Socialist, among other papers and journals, for evidence of this btw.


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## editor (Dec 22, 2005)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> That most of the men who fought in the First Imperialist World War thought they were fighting for 'their country' is a fact.


So exactly what point are you trying to make here?

That the Welsh were all a bunch of a stinking rioting racists to a man?
How does that square with all the intermarriage that went on before and after the riot?


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## neprimerimye (Dec 22, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> So exactly what point are you trying to make here?
> 
> That the Welsh were all a bunch of a stinking rioting racists to a man?
> How does that square with all the intermarriage that went on before and after the riot?



I'm not seeking to make any specific point about the 1919 riots. It is certainly not my intention to claim that everyone involved, discussing them as 'Welsh' is actually pretty meaningless given that many were seafarers, was a racist. The men concerned would almost certainly have thought of themselves as 'British' and as 'white'. And yes in todays terms most would be regarded as racists.

But if you think they are such then it is you that is making judgements about motives according to todays concepts not I. My views on the events were and are based on class criteria that remain fully applicable today as with the Irish Ferries dispute as RubberBuccanneer recognised (to whom ta for the link btw).

What I was pointing at was that the men involved, on both sides, had no class interest in fighting over jobs and housing. That their class interests were not best served by seeking to either undercut the other guy or by forming a racist jobs trust with the bosses. Both tactics leading to unemployment and wage gouging as in fact happened. Leading to the 1925 world wide strike of the British seamen btw.

Another point would be that many of the rioters were racists but they were also, again in their terms, Labour and Union men. Labourism right from the start was a ideology ambigous about racism in that it took the side of the British state. A state that represents the class interests of the boss class who will always use racism as a weapon if and when they feel the need.

The ambiguity of Labourism is illustrated by the role of the NUR No1 branch, detailed in the report linked by RB, which called for sympathy with Black men attacked in the riots. And help for them to return to the Caribbean. This is certainly a better position than that of the NUS bureacracts who formented divisions between the 'races' but it nonetheless views Black men (surplus labour) as the problem not the inability of the bourgeoisie to run the economy in the interests of all as the real problem.

There more to be learnt from this who wish to but I'm off for my tea.


----------



## Brockway (Dec 22, 2005)

RubberBuccaneer said:
			
		

> Just browsing for more on this period and found this, they look like witness statements and police reports from the riot in 1919
> bit in depth but looks interesting



Fascinating stuff mate. Plenty on there I haven't seen before. Looks like the women were to blame then...

The Barry skirmish is interesting too.


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## editor (Dec 22, 2005)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> The men concerned would almost certainly have thought of themselves as 'British' and as 'white'.


Or - incredible as it might seem to you - 'Welsh'.


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## neprimerimye (Dec 22, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> Or - incredible as it might seem to you - 'Welsh'.



Highly unlikely among the common seamen of 1919 Cardiff. Many of said seamen would of course have hailed from the Old Commonwealth countries, the USA and other parts of Europe. Then you have to factor in the seamen from other parts of Britain.

All of which points to the majority having a 'British' identity. Which conclusion would seem to be shared by the various historians of the City and the trade. And for what its worth was certainly the impression I developed long ago talking to old men of my Grandfathers generation. Including my Grandfather who, as I have pointed out before, was a former seaman present on the day of the riot in Cardiff.

Now if you want to talk about the captains and officers and possibly some of the ship owners they certainly did consider themselves to be Welsh. Although that was not seen as being distinct from having a British identity the way it increasingly is today. I'm neutral myself all national identities suck.


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## editor (Dec 23, 2005)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> Highly unlikely among the common seamen of 1919 Cardiff. Many of said seamen would of course have hailed from the Old Commonwealth countries, the USA and other parts of Europe.


You seem to be forgetting about the the indigenous rail workers, crane operators, admin staff, supply staff, dock workers, tug crews, clerks, boarding house/hotel staff, cafe owners, landlords, signalmen, bar staff, cleaners, roadsweepers, lamplighters, shopowners, fishermen, milkmen, newsagents etc etc who would all be living in the same area. 

I suspect they'd all be calling themselves 'Welsh', just like they do now.

When was the last time you visited the Cardiff docks?


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## neprimerimye (Dec 23, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> You seem to be forgetting about the the indigenous rail workers, crane operators, admin staff, supply staff, dock workers, tug crews, clerks, boarding house/hotel staff, cafe owners, landlords, signalmen, bar staff, cleaners, roadsweepers, lamplighters, shopowners, fishermen, milkmen, newsagents etc etc who would all be living in the same area.
> 
> I suspect they'd all be calling themselves 'Welsh', just like they do now.
> 
> When was the last time you visited the Cardiff docks?



The 'Indigenous' workers were for the most part the result of then quite recent in-migration from all over Britain but many, as with my own family, from the West Country. Remember only a very few decades previous to these events Cardiff amounted to very little.

The opinion that these workers thought of themselves as having a primary Welsh identity as you assert is not one held by historians. Nor is it an opinion  ever heard from family friends who worked in those self same docks, as well as Barry and Penarth docks come to that, prior to the Second Imperialist World War.

I first visited the docks in the 1950's and was regularly in the area until the early 1980's. Does it matter when I last visited Cardiff docks (the day before yesterday as a matter of fact) it has no bearing on events in 1919 unless you happen to have a Tardis going spare.

If you are trying, rather ineptly, to make the point that I'm an outsider to the area then you are barking up the wrong tree my friend. The events of 1919 and the history of the docks in this area are part of my family background. One Grandfather came here as a boy sailor and sailed out of Cardiff for decades. Another fought the blitz there and did business there every week of his life for decades. Pretty much all the older members of my family worked in the Cardiff docks area at one point or another and many family friends worked as dockers.

With all due respect i value the knowledge of those family members and friends, all long dead, who knew the docks area as far back as the 1880's far more than I do your opinion. For that matter I also value the professional views of trained historians more than I do the inanities of those who would falsify history in the name of nationalist prejudices.


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## editor (Dec 23, 2005)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> The opinion that these workers thought of themselves as having a primary Welsh identity as you assert is not one held by historians.


I wasn't just referring to just workers, actually, but could you provide a source that says that the ovewhelming majority of people living and working in and around the Cardiff docks area didn't think of themselves as Welsh please?

You are aware, of course, that the Bute West Dock was built as far back as 1839 (Bute East Dock in1855) and that over 50 collieries (mainly from Aberdare & Merthyr Tydfil) had offices in the docks area of Cardiff?

Who do you think staffed them if not Welsh people?


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## RubberBuccaneer (Dec 23, 2005)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> views of trained historians more than I do the inanities of those who would falsify history in the name of nationalist prejudices.



Every Historian has their own point of view/angle or agenda don't they. Take two differing accounts of say the Gullf War, even eye witnesses will differ based on bias, political,cultural,religious.

HAve you ever written down your famillies views, thoughts as they sound like they'd be good reading. Before you get too old yourself like  

Re the Welshness of Cardiff, true it was a melting pot, but there was a lot on internal migration, also Irish, West Country, Hereford way.
My Great Grandparents ( like most of that age Came to Cardiff ), 7 out of the 8 were Welsh ( from Llandeilo to Newcastle Emlyn ),the other ( the black sheep   was from Wells ).


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## Brockway (Dec 23, 2005)

RubberBuccaneer said:
			
		

> the other ( the black sheep   was from Wells ).



It's all coming out now - yer fecking carrot-cruncher.   

Any idea why Newtown was knocked down? Seems odd that an Irish area and an ethnic area, the Docks, were levelled when the housing stock in those places was no different than say... Splott or Canton. 

My mother reckons that the remnants of Catholic/Protestant tensions we normally associate with cities like Glasgow and Liverpool was still evident in Grangetown in the Fifties.


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## RubberBuccaneer (Dec 23, 2005)

Brockway said:
			
		

> It's all coming out now - yer fecking carrot-cruncher.
> 
> Any idea why Newtown was knocked down? Seems odd that an Irish area and an ethnic area, the Docks, were levelled when the housing stock in those places was no different than say... Splott or Canton.
> 
> My mother reckons that the remnants of Catholic/Protestant tensions we normally associate with cities like Glasgow and Liverpool was still evident in Grangetown in the Fifties.



My mamgu hates thes bloody Irish ( always fighting on Cyfartha St ).
She says that if it went off there, the police wouldn't go in, but called for the priest to sort it out as he was the only one they'd listen too.

Someone else told me the Swansea/Cardiff rivallry was prod/cath based, but I think this is stretching it a bit.


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## RubberBuccaneer (Dec 23, 2005)

Brockway said:
			
		

> It's all coming out now - yer fecking carrot-cruncher.
> QUOTE]
> 
> Have you ever seen me drink cider?
> ...


----------



## editor (Dec 23, 2005)

RubberBuccaneer said:
			
		

> Someone else told me the Swansea/Cardiff rivallry was prod/cath based, but I think this is stretching it a bit.


Some Swansea fans certainly have an allegiance with Ulster (I've seen a few flags being flapped about, along with Union Jacks), but I reckon the Cardiff fans are more of a heathen bunch!

I've never heard any religious-based chants coming from the Cardiff crowd. Ever.


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## RubberBuccaneer (Dec 23, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> Some Swansea fans certainly have an allegiance with Ulster (I've seen a few flags being flapped about, along with Union Jacks), but I reckon the Cardiff fans are more of a heathen bunch!
> 
> I've never heard any religious-based chants coming from the Cardiff crowd. Ever.



Never???

The shitty Swansea city went around to see the Pope
( apparently he told them to fuck off ).

Have you seen the Jack Army site, they've got a poll about whether a racist song about Sam Hamman should be banned or not ( it's a close no at present), but in fairness there are a lot of Jacks thinking their racist lot are wankers.


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## editor (Dec 23, 2005)

RubberBuccaneer said:
			
		

> N
> The shitty Swansea city went around to see the Pope
> ( apparently he told them to fuck off ).


Forgot that one, although I've never quite got the religious message in there!

I'm not tarring all Jacks with the same brush here, but I've always been mystified by their love for Union Jacks. Start waving one of the around in the Grange End and it wouldn't last long!


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## neprimerimye (Dec 23, 2005)

RubberBuccaneer said:
			
		

> Every Historian has their own point of view/angle or agenda don't they. Take two differing accounts of say the Gullf War, even eye witnesses will differ based on bias, political,cultural,religious.
> 
> HAve you ever written down your famillies views, thoughts as they sound like they'd be good reading. Before you get too old yourself like
> 
> ...



Sure historians have their own agenda. As a Marxist I'm not going to deny my own bias is towards emphasising the class aspects of questions. What I will not do is distort the historical record to make my class look better and in the case of the Cardiff riot it's even more personal than that.

Which is why I object strongly to nationalist interpretations of the events of the early years of the 20th century ce. A simplistic interpretation of the expression of a Welsh identity does not come close to an understanding of what that meant to a polyglot cosmopolitan community that was in constant flux. It would appear to be pretty universally accepted that the predominant expression of identity in the cardiff of the early 20th century was indeed british and Labourite just as much as it was in any other city in mainland britain. Which does not deny that within this identity we must include a Welsh identitfying element.

As for my family's history and views. Well I was born old and more importantly the generation that had stories to tell is gone. In any case the identity which they, in common with most of their class, adopted was British and Labourist. I loath both.

Oral history is in any case untrustworthy unless one has documentation to corroborate it as it becomes distorted very easily. This is of course made more problematic when one attempts to recount the half remembered memories of others. Some time ago i read the transcripts of interviews of some old time revolutionaries and then compared them to the work that was, in part, based on their memories. A very curious experience as it appeaered that they would regularly misdate events or mixx people up. But when used with contemporaneous published materials invaluable.


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## Funky_monks (Dec 23, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> It is a fantastic museum and well worth a visit.



The Rhondda Heritage Park is just up the way from my missus, anyone been there? Any Good?

I'll get mesel' to Pwll Mawr one of these weekends too.....


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## editor (Dec 23, 2005)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> It would appear to be pretty universally accepted that the predominant expression of identity in the cardiff of the early 20th century was indeed british and Labourite just as much as it was in any other city in mainland britain.


Source, please.


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## editor (Dec 23, 2005)

It's worth noting that at the turn of the century, 64% of the population of the Rhondda still spoke Welsh, and, of course, Wales was quite a different politically to most of England, with the Tories famously failing to win a single Welsh parliamentary seat in 1906. 





> Works such as Idris Davies’s famous poem of the 1926 General Strike, The Angry Summer, or Richard Llewellyn’s novel How Green Was My Valley, published in 1939, heightened an awareness of the Welshness of the non-Welsh-speaking areas of Wales.
> http://tinyurl.com/a2rg6


This is interesting too: Political Conditions in Wales
Are Quite Different ...’ party politics and votes for women in Wales, 1912–15


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## neprimerimye (Dec 23, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> It's worth noting that at the turn of the century, 64% of the population of the Rhondda still spoke Welsh, and, of course, Wales was quite a different politically to most of England, with the Tories famously failing to win a single Welsh parliamentary seat in 1906.



'The turn of the century' was five years ago. Are you seriously suggesting that five years ago a majority of the population of the Rhondda spoke Welsh?

And what relevance does that have to the situation in Cardiff?


----------



## editor (Dec 23, 2005)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> 'The turn of the century' was five years ago. Are you seriously suggesting that five years ago a majority of the population of the Rhondda spoke Welsh?


I didn't say the "last" century and I would have thought it was _blazingly_ obvious which century I was referring to seeing as I was referring to the links contained in my post (you did read them before hitting 'send post', yes?)

 

I think the political allegiance and the strength of Welsh culture in south Wales is significant seeing as you're busily trying to lump the entire Cardiff population into some sort of homegemous 'British' mass.


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## neprimerimye (Dec 23, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> Source, please.



It would seem pretty damn obvious that the working class of Cardiff saw itself in Labourite terms given that voting patterns and trade union membership show patterns identical to those in the rest of Britain in the period concerned.

As for the working class in Cardiff identifying as British again I would suggest that this is proven by what happened in 1914 when they volunteered in similar proportions to fight for the bosses. In my terms to die for the proprietors of UK PLC.

If you want written sources for these assertions then I can only suggest a reading of the many general histories of Wales and of Cardiff will provide evidence in abundance.

Gotta run a two year old is screaming the joint down.


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## editor (Dec 23, 2005)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> As for the working class in Cardiff identifying as British again I would suggest that this is proven by what happened in 1914 when they volunteered in similar proportions to fight for the bosses. In my terms to die for the proprietors of UK PLC.


Hold on - you've been emphatically claiming that it's "universally accepted" that the "predominant expression of identity in the cardiff of the early 20th century was indeed british" - and now you're saying you can't find a single source for that claim?

Just because Welsh people fought in WW1 that doesn't make them any less Welsh or mean that they think of themselves as British first.


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## Karac (Dec 23, 2005)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> 'The turn of the century' was five years ago. Are you seriously suggesting that five years ago a majority of the population of the Rhondda spoke Welsh?
> 
> And what relevance does that have to the situation in Cardiff?


What relevance do you have neprimerimye?


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## editor (Dec 23, 2005)

<oops!>


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## Karac (Dec 23, 2005)

Err-its his name too.


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## editor (Dec 23, 2005)

Karac said:
			
		

> Err-its his name too.


Oh, oops, sorry!
 

But you shouldn't use his name unless he's been describing himself that way on the boards (has he?)

I'll remove my comment and put his name into your post, if that's OK.
(Give me a shout if I've got it wrong again)


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## neprimerimye (Dec 23, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> I didn't say the "last" century and I would have thought it was _blazingly_ obvious which century I was referring to seeing as I was referring to the links contained in my post (you did read them before hitting 'send post', yes?)
> 
> I think the political allegiance and the strength of Welsh culture in south Wales is significant seeing as you're busily trying to lump the entire Cardiff population into some sort of homegemous 'British' mass.



You presume and presume incorrectly that I am trying to lump the population of cardiff into an homogenized 'British' mass. If you care to read my comments again you will find that my discussion of the consciousness of the proletariat in Cardiff circa 1919 attempts to suggest that it was contradictory and in flux.

It follows that national identity should not be seen in either/or terms when more than one is in the frameas it were. A sense of being both British and Welsh was probably the norm at that time. But politically speaking for most workers in the Cardiff area it seems highly unlikely that they would have expressed their Welshness in political terms. Even now the overwhelming majority vote for 'British' parties i proportions almost identical to the English electorate. This is not the case in the valleys or the Welsh speaking areas which seems to indicate that attempts to force Cardiff into an homogenized 'Welsh' identity is false to the core.

I agree with you that the political allegiance of workers in South Wales is important but that allegiance was to Labourism. If anything Cardiff was less developed in that regard than the Valleys were at that time. However even the most advanced expressions of working class militancy in South Wales, the Unofficial Reform Committee and the South Wales Socialist Society, are evidence of tendencies at work analogous to those in other regions and countries. Thus the URC expressed the influence of syndicalism and industrial unionism while the SWSS expressed the growing influence of the revolutionary left in those years.

Look as far as I'm concerned it is important when looking at historical events such as the 1919 riots, again remember in this context my Grandfather was present at that event, to understand the people concerned as they understood themselves. In that context I find it fanciful romanticism to talk of the Welsh identity of those concerned as being 'Welsh' is some kind of uniquely homogenous identity. As far as I'm aware political identity is both contradictory and contested. They are all, from a communist perspective, forms of false consciousness.

Your link did not work btw. I knew quite well which century ce you were making reference to.   

Now I rally goota go that child needs beating.


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## neprimerimye (Dec 23, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> Hold on - you've been emphatically claiming that it's "universally accepted" that the "predominant expression of identity in the cardiff of the early 20th century was indeed british" - and now you're saying you can't find a single source for that claim?
> 
> Just because Welsh people fought in WW1 that doesn't make them any less Welsh or mean that they think of themselves as British first.



Don't be silly. I simply can't be bothered to type out a long list of the standard historical works concerning Cardiff. In any case I've also pointed out that one source for this assertion is the older members of my family and friends who most certainly felt themself to be British. If you want their testimonies I'll dig up 'em up in the morning.

What might be more ntersting is if you could ptrovide sources that the working class population of Cardiff circa 1919 considered Welsh their primary or only national identity. I would be very interested to see that. Possibly my Grandparents both paternal and maternal (and they were from different parts of the area btw and did not know each other, were unique isolated examples and all the other working people were Welsh nationalists?

If the thousands of Cardiffians who volunteered to die for King and Country were doing so because they felt themselves Welsh why the did they join the British Army? As the threat of German invasion of Wales would seem to have been a rather distant threat was it not because they felt British in some way perhaps? Or were my Grandfathers motives again unique to him?

Again i offer you the thought that you are misreading my comments if you think that I was suggesting that volunteering for the bosses armies in 1914 made anyone less Welsh or less anything come to that. Even the generals knew better than that in that they ensured that the various regiments had strong local or regional identities the better to con workers to die for the profits of the boss class.


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## Karac (Dec 23, 2005)

Do people really say things like the "Boss class" outside of a Hair musical?

OK-my Dad really did really work down the docks-he reckons Shirley Bassey was a proper prostitutute b4 she got fame.


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## editor (Dec 24, 2005)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> Possibly my Grandparents both paternal and maternal (and they were from different parts of the area btw and did not know each other, were unique isolated examples and all the other working people were Welsh nationalists?


There is a _world_ of difference between someone thinking of themselves as 'Welsh' (which I do) and someone saying that they're a 'Welsh nationalist'.

And I still fail to see why a Welsh person deciding to join the army somehow automatically relinquishes their 'Welshness' in preference for a British identity. You can be in the British army and still think of yourself as Welsh.


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## editor (Dec 24, 2005)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> What might be more ntersting is if you could ptrovide sources that the working class population of Cardiff circa 1919 considered Welsh their primary or only national identity.


Surely the onus is on you to prove that they didn't because it seems to fly in the face of thousands of years of history? 

After all, you keep on insisting that it was "universally accepted" that the "predominant expression of identity in the Cardiff of the early 20th century was British", yet I've still to see a source for such an authorative claim.

Growing up in Cardiff, every single member of my family put themselves as Welsh first, British second. 

I can't see why that would be any different a hundred years ago (unless you weren't Welsh born, of course).


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## neprimerimye (Dec 24, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> Surely the onus is on you to prove that they didn't because it seems to fly in the face of thousands of years of history?
> 
> After all, you keep on insisting that it was "universally accepted" that the "predominant expression of identity in the Cardiff of the early 20th century was British", yet I've still to see a source for such an authorative claim.
> 
> ...



Growing up in and near Cardiff every single member of my family considered themselves British first and Welsh second. I suspect that all members of my family born after me would reverse that order. And I don't consider myself either Welsh or British.

The real point here is that identity is multi-faceted. Depending on the siutation most individuals most of the time will stress that aspect of their identity which is more important at that point in time and in that place. So in 1914 thousands of Cardiff men placed the stress on their Britishness by signing up to die to protect the profits of the rich scum who actually owned Cardiff. Which does not mean that those who considered themsleves Welsh repuf=diated that aspect of their identity. In 1919 the white men, most of whom we can presume were Cardiffians, who engaged in the racist riots stressed a very different aspect of their identity.

Now wheres the evidence that these men considered themselves to be primarily British? Well as I pointed out before they chose to join British trade unions, to vote for and join British political parties and British social socieities. All of which is attested to in a myriad of books as I'm sure you are well aware. And as in 1914 or 1919 a fairly large proportion of these men would have been born outside Cardiff, this would be especially true of the men working in or around the docks, that seems pretty unremarkable to me. It also seems to be taken for granted by historians.

What I cannot produce for you are social surveys of the type we are used. Not even Mass Observation was operating as far back as 1914 or 1919 so thats no use. We are then left with a mass of fragmentary evidence which suggests that the predominant national identity among Cardiffs working population a hundred years back was British. Frankly I'm astounded that anyone thinks otherwise unless they are blinded by a romantic view of Welsh history.

That you do have a romantic view of Welsh history is suggested to me by your comment about a thousand years of history. Really untill 150 years or so Cardiff was a little place of no importance. Why would a thousand years of very little indeed matter to a population that was only first or second generation Cardiffian? Look walking through town a few years ago I mentioned to friends that the canal had run near where we were outside Spillers Records. The people I was with, most of them from Cardiff had no idea what I was talking about. Now the canal was only diverted in, I think, 1952. But that was long before any of us were born and already forgotten so what meaning has 1,000 years of history if people don't know it?

Look most Cardiffians at this point in time would find themselves pushed to know why the name Bute is all over the city. A large part of the population of Splott and Tremorfa not only cannot remember East Moors but don't know it was ever there. Fewer again know that an Act of Parliament had to be passed so the people of Cathays could buy their homes freehold. Fewer again know that the legal decision that was instrumental to the formation of the Labour Party was caused by a dispute on the Taff Vale line. I repeat history has no meaning if the people don't know anything about it other than the myths pimped by the mass media. Like it or not most Cardiffians know more about the Windsor family than they do about their home city.


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## editor (Dec 24, 2005)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> Frankly I'm astounded that anyone thinks otherwise unless they are blinded by a romantic view of Welsh history.


Frankly, I think you're the one blinded with the romantic view here with your attempts to twist history to suit your personal politics, regardless of hard evidence. 

Despite your bold claims that it was "universally accepted" that the "predominant expression of identity in the Cardiff of the early 20th century was British", you've still to provide a _single source_ for such an authorative claim, despite repeated requests.

I make no claims to know the answers here but I'm afraid you insisting that  something is "damn obvious" without any supporting evidence isn't exactly persuasive.


----------



## editor (Dec 24, 2005)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> Look most Cardiffians at this point in time would find themselves pushed to know why the name Bute is all over the city. A large part of the population of Splott and Tremorfa not only cannot remember East Moors but don't know it was ever there.


Wow. That's another set of big claims. Have you a source?

You might find this interesting:





> Thus, it is important to be aware of how the sociocultural, political and economic situation of Wales differed from that of other regions of the United Kingdom, and the Anglocentric narrative of the suffrage movement in particular, while at the same time remaining sensitive to the way fin-de- siècle and early twentieth-century Wales conceived of itself as intimatelyaffiliated with ‘Britain’ and the Empire.
> Even Welsh national(ist) sensibilities were not necessarily incompatible with a sense of an imperial British identity at the end of the nineteenth century
> http://tinyurl.com/a7nwl


----------



## Brockway (Dec 24, 2005)

Karac said:
			
		

> OK-my Dad really did really work down the docks-he reckons Shirley Bassey was a proper prostitutute b4 she got fame.



Where's your evidence? As I understand it she worked in a factory and got pregnant at 16. She kept the birth of her daughter secret for years.

She definitely aggressively used her sexuality to sell her early records though. Her youth, 'exotic' looks, and the nudge nudge wink wink references of some of the lyrics were all used to promote her. In fact, the BBC banned her debut single because it contained the word "sex" which was used not in a neutral way but as in: having it off!

Which is all very ironic really when you consider she ended up becoming a bit of a gay icon.

Anyway, Cardiff should definitely be the Capital because who else in Wales has done a duet with French heart-throb actor Alain Delon? I rest my case.


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## nwnm (Dec 24, 2005)

She was from Splott - not the Docks - anyway


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## Karac (Dec 24, 2005)

Brockway said:
			
		

> Where's your evidence?


Havent got any-its just something my Dads always said-ill have to ask him about it over xmas.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 24, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> Surely the onus is on you to prove that they didn't because it seems to fly in the face of thousands of years of history?


thousands? source, please.


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## Pickman's model (Dec 24, 2005)

with this shirley bassey prostitute thing, i think people are getting confused with leonesse von cleeffe, who used to work as a drag prostitute in johannesburg under the name shirley bassey.


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## lewislewis (Dec 24, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> There is a _world_ of difference between someone thinking of themselves as 'Welsh' (which I do) and someone saying that they're a 'Welsh nationalist'.
> 
> And I still fail to see why a Welsh person deciding to join the army somehow automatically relinquishes their 'Welshness' in preference for a British identity. You can be in the British army and still think of yourself as Welsh.



Its worth pointing out that when Lloyd George was in power the government produced nationalistic Owain Glyndwr postcards to raise money for Welsh soldiers fighting for the British army.


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## nwnm (Dec 24, 2005)

"thousands? source, please." Erm... the calender


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## Karac (Dec 24, 2005)

Anyway-Nadolig Llawen to you all.


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## nwnm (Dec 25, 2005)

The archive stuff that people have dug up on 1919 in cardiff is fascinating. I seem to vaguely remember something about an article about this in a journal called "Llafur" but have been unable to locate it on the net. Any suggestions for a web address for this or any other articles etc covering this part of cardiffs history? Neil Sinclair's "Tiger Bay story" also has a chapter on 1919 which is worth a read, and is a useful counter-balance to the police/intelligence reports. There is also a mention of it in John Williams' "Bloody Valantine - a killing in Cardiff".

Planet magazine has had stuff on the redevelopment of the docks (i.e. Cardiff Bay Development Corporation)as well.


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## neprimerimye (Dec 26, 2005)

nwnm said:
			
		

> The archive stuff that people have dug up on 1919 in cardiff is fascinating. I seem to vaguely remember something about an article about this in a journal called "Llafur" but have been unable to locate it on the net. Any suggestions for a web address for this or any other articles etc covering this part of cardiffs history? Neil Sinclair's "Tiger Bay story" also has a chapter on 1919 which is worth a read, and is a useful counter-balance to the police/intelligence reports. There is also a mention of it in John Williams' "Bloody Valantine - a killing in Cardiff".
> 
> Planet magazine has had stuff on the redevelopment of the docks (i.e. Cardiff Bay Development Corporation)as well.



Llafur (Labour) is the journal Society for the Study of Welsh Labour History. It does not have a web site. An indicator of the institutional decline of labourisms links to the class and its traditions I feel.

Llafur also published a useful study of the 1944 Neath election in which Haston stood for the RCP. Many of the older issues have useful studies of individual disputes particularly in the coal industry. But there was more and more filler from the early 1980's onwards which is why I allowed my subscription to fail. 

I've not much time right now. But I would like to make the point that generalising from the Docks to Cardiff as a whole is fraught with difficulties due to the atypical nature of the district. Not only was the historic docks community different in terms of ethnic composition but the nature of the district was very different from most Cardiff districts in a number of ways. First it contained a large number of transient workers due to its character as a port. This in turn ensured its distinct ethnic character. The sea trade in the boom years also meant that it sucked in many workers from outwith the immediate district as did its character as a centre for business.


----------



## neprimerimye (Dec 26, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> Wow. That's another set of big claims. Have you a source?
> 
> You might find this interesting:



The people of Cardiff are the source for my claims that popular knowledge of local history is generally pretty shite. If you wish to conduct an experiment place yourself on any street in Cardiff with a clipboard and ask the first ten people passing you, ensuring they are from Cardiff, a series of questions. Heres a few to get you started.

1. When was the canal diverted?

2. When did East Moors close?

3. What did Lord Bute give to the people of Cardiff?

Thanks for the link to the article, which I'll read more closely when i have the time, but as suscpected it has no relevance to any discussion concerning Cardiff. In fact it does not even mention the city.


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## Pickman's model (Dec 26, 2005)

nwnm said:
			
		

> "thousands? source, please." Erm... the calender


and returning unwillingly to the real world...

that foolish post of yours doesn't really answer the question, anyway.


----------



## nwnm (Dec 26, 2005)

you never asked a question in your post - you merely asked for a source for the statement made by editor that there has been thousands of years of history. The fact that my calender tells me its the year 2005 would suggest that there has in fact been thousands of years of history, (not including the ones BC)


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## Pickman's model (Dec 26, 2005)

nwnm said:
			
		

> you never asked a question in your post - you merely asked for a source for the statement made by editor that there has been thousands of years of history. The fact that my calender tells me its the year 2005 would suggest that there has in fact been thousands of years of history, (not including the ones BC)


editor seems to suggest that these years of history support his nebulous case. i'd like to see a source for that support.

i don't feel that editor's efforts are best aided by your fuckwitt'd assistance.


----------



## nwnm (Dec 26, 2005)

I'm merely winding up a humourless troll at the mo', whilst waiting to see if anyone has any other interesting sources about Cardiff in 1919. or any other interesting historical links such as this. Which is what the thread is supposed to be about......


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## Pickman's model (Dec 26, 2005)

nwnm said:
			
		

> I'm merely winding up a humourless troll at the mo', whilst waiting to see if anyone has any other interesting sources about Cardiff in 1919. or any other interesting historical links such as this. Which is what the thread is supposed to be about......


like you've a better idea than me what the fucking thread's supposed to be about!


----------



## nwnm (Dec 26, 2005)

wouldn't be difficult


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## Pickman's model (Dec 26, 2005)

nwnm said:
			
		

> wouldn't be difficult


you don't have a fucking clew.


----------



## nwnm (Dec 26, 2005)

and you can't spell


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 26, 2005)

nwnm said:
			
		

> and you can't spell


whatever gave you that idea?


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## Pickman's model (Dec 26, 2005)

http://www.answers.com/topic/clew?gwp=19

see clew2


----------



## nwnm (Dec 26, 2005)

well I certainly haven't got any cords by which a hammock is suspended   
Where did you borrow this lexiconography from - George Bernard Shaw?


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 26, 2005)

nwnm said:
			
		

> well I certainly haven't got any cords by which a hammock is suspended
> Where did you borrow this lexiconography from - George Bernard Shaw?


agatha christie.

& h p lovecraft.


----------



## nwnm (Dec 26, 2005)

Thats a shame, I'm sure GBS would have shewed you a thing or two


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 26, 2005)

nwnm said:
			
		

> Thats a shame, I'm sure GBS would have shewed you a thing or two


good.


----------



## phildwyer (Dec 26, 2005)

Pickman's model said:
			
		

> you don't have a fucking clew.



Actually Pickman's, this raises an issue about which I have long harboured serious concerns.  Why will you insist on ending certain words with 'ck' instead of with a 'c' or a 'k,' and also on foolishly misspelling other words?  Do you think its cool or something?  Because I can assure you that everyone else here merely finds it *stupid* and *pathetic.*  I think this nonsense has gone on long enough.  You make yourself into even more of a clown that you already seem, which is really saying something.  Will you now stop your pretentious, rubbish and ludicrous attempts to be oh-so idiosyncratic?  Because I am telling you that you should.


----------



## 1927 (Dec 26, 2005)

phildwyer said:
			
		

> Actually Pickman's, this raises an issue about which I have long harboured serious concerns.  Why will you insist on ending certain words with 'ck' instead of with a 'c' or a 'k,' and also on foolishly misspelling other words?  Do you think its cool or something?  Because I can assure you that everyone else here merely finds it *stupid* and *pathetic.*  I think this nonsense has gone on long enough.  You make yourself into even more of a clown that you already seem, which is really saying something.  Will you now stop your pretentious, rubbish and ludicrous attempts to be oh-so idiosyncratic?  Because I am telling you that you should.



Thats been pissing me off as well,topick,manick!!

I'd just like to add prick!


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## laptop (Dec 26, 2005)

Ich mehr archaick Englisch then Picmans scribben kann 

Back to the argument... 

I'm reminded of the friend who had to write an essay on "English identity" and was nonplussed when I asked her how much of the past week she'd spent actually feeling English. We eventually estimated about 15 minutes - and this was during a World Cup!

An adopted Londoner - several hours. 

I can't see how you'd test an assertion about what prime identiry a majority of residents of Cardiff had 100 or 150 years ago. Is there an archive of surviving personal letters?

But given that the city was made up almost entirely of recent incomers and their children, "Cardiff" (not Caerdydd) seems to be an answer worth investigating.


----------



## neprimerimye (Dec 27, 2005)

laptop said:
			
		

> Back to the argument...
> 
> I'm reminded of the friend who had to write an essay on "English identity" and was nonplussed when I asked her how much of the past week she'd spent actually feeling English. We eventually estimated about 15 minutes - and this was during a World Cup!
> 
> ...



Well yes there are archives of personal letters and similar documents in existence. Trouble is even if you could access all such documentation, itself bloody difficult, you would be no closer to establishing a conclusive answer as to how Cardiffians identified theirselves. If only bcause such documentation would be heavily biased towards the middle class elements in society due to working class illiteracy.

That said it is possible to test, very roughly, both my assertions and those made by others in this thread. But it cannot be done by a simple minded series of citations which in and of themselves prove sfa. What can be done is the formation of a judgement based on a fair minded assessment of the materials which are available in the context of the relevant time and place.

The problem for some is that such a fairminded assessment cannot be done if one projects current attitudes onto people who simply did not understand concepts in the same manner as we do today. Its not a matter of the people of the Cardiff of 1919 holding either a Welsh or British identity even as the very meaning of such identities has changed in the years between then and now. Shit it has even changed and quite dramatically in my lifetime.

I agree with your last point that the people of Cardiff in 1919 were mostly fairly recent incomers or the children of such. All four of my Grandparants were living in either Cardiff or Penarth in 1919 of who 2 were born here and 2 elsewhere. Each and everyone of them considered themselves to be Cardiffians (or Penarthians poor sods), British and Welsh in no particular order most of the time. Perhaps the only time the Welsh aspect came to the fore would have been on international days and i don't recall any of them being particularly keen on the organised barbarism that is Rugby. And in a sense being a Cardiffian or Penarthian was a matter of life and death in that it determined whether or not there was bread on the table (or a table) during the depression years. And passing through and fighting in two world wars rather suggests that being British was literally a matter of life and death at certain points. A thousand years of history which one knows nothing of cannot and does not compare to such experiences. I'm pretty sure btw that Nwnm's familial background would tell a series of stories not dissimilar albeit they would relate more directly to Cardiff docks.


----------



## laptop (Dec 27, 2005)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> Trouble is even if you could access all such documentation, itself bloody difficult, you would be no closer to establishing a conclusive answer as to how Cardiffians identified theirselves. If only bcause such documentation would be heavily biased towards the middle class elements in society due to working class illiteracy.



Oh, I'd thought of the class bias.


Transcribe a random sample of the correspondence
From this mini-corpus compile a thesaurus of phrases to do with identity
Record class origins of every letter-writer
Find thesaurus phrases
Weight results by census figures

That'll be €1.7M, please 




			
				neprimerimye said:
			
		

> And passing through and fighting in two world wars rather suggests that being British was literally a matter of life and death at certain points. A thousand years of history which one knows nothing of cannot and does not compare to such experiences. I'm pretty sure btw that Nwnm's familial background would tell a series of stories not dissimilar albeit they would relate more directly to Cardiff docks.



I'm not sure that you can call fighting in the war as evidence of anything. There was conscription. Conscientious objection was bloody difficult - particularly in the 1914-18, to be working-class and acquire conshy status you had to be a genius.

Even incidence of volunteering doesn't prove anything either way about how much importance, if any, placed on their "Welshness". In both big wars recruitment was, it seems to me, organised around the defeat of the German aggressor - and the _entire point_ of the regiment system was to make recruits feel they would be fighting for their home place and to increase peer pressure for recruitment. 

But it seems to me - on the basis only of long-ago reading of histories of the Empire - that Cardiff itself was a creation of _British_ capital, in geographical Wales. 

I'd say to editor: there's no shame in the fact that national identity, particularly for small nations that have suffered attempts to eradicate them, is constructed and re-constructed. 

It's just that some of us get a bit picky when that construction is made retroactive. Of course it always happens - parts of Scottish identity re-arising out of the forged bits of the Oisin "legend" and so on...

Anyone know anything about the Imperial attempt to re-name Wales and surrounds as "West Britain"? There are few mentions and it wasn't nearly as successful at the co-optation of parts of the bourgoisie living in Scotland as "North Britons"...


----------



## neprimerimye (Dec 27, 2005)

laptop said:
			
		

> Oh, I'd thought of the class bias.
> 
> 
> Transcribe a random sample of the correspondence
> ...



Well I'm impressed by your modelling of national identity based on contemporeaneous correspondence. But can you construct a mathematical version of it? I'm sure there's a Phd in it if you can.

As for your other points I agree that gaining conchy status was damn nigh impossible for proles. Conscription was prevalent after the first flush of enthusiasm for the war. But the point remains that thousands did volunteer in that early period and the Cardiff district, Wales in general come to that, had as high a rate of volunteering as any other part of Britain. Ireland was very different and that must be taken into account in any assessment of the role of nationalisms in the 'Celtic fringe'.

Now that to me does indicate a positive identification with a sense of being British. But as i have previously argued such a sense of Britishness did not and need not be on conflict with a sense of being Welsh. In fact the two can be complimentary and can, as you point out, be used by the bourgeoisie and/or its agencies such as the army.

Again i agree with you that nations are made and remade. Moreover the content of any given nation, its nature, will also undergo constant change. For my part I cannot see any point in reconstructing any nation.


----------



## phildwyer (Dec 27, 2005)

Well, just from my own living memory of such things, I'd say that people in Cardiff felt less Welsh when I was at school in the 70's and 80's than they do now.  I think the Catatonia/Manics 'cool Cymru' phenomenon was a bit of a turning point.  That's when Spillers Records started having a 'Welsh' section, for one symptomatic example.  Also, there have always been *three* very different Welsh cultures: the Vale/Cardiff/Newport; the Valleys; and the Welsh speakers.  These three don't have all that much in common, and its arguable that Cardiff has more in common with somewhere like Manchester than with Merthyr or Llandeilo.  We used to make fun of kids with Valleys or west Welsh accents when I were a nipper.  Obviously of those three, the environs of Cardiff are the most Anglicized, and I don't find the cultural ambience in Barry or Cardiff to be greatly different from that in Manchester or Doncaster.  Just the accent really.  Whereas in Glasgow or Edinburgh, I feel like I'm in a foriegn country.  On the other hand, the working-class areas of Cardiff and Manchester both feel hugely different from w-c areas on the continent.  So I'd have to agree with Laptop that, in Cardiuff, Welsh identity is a recent construction, although I'd also agree with him that this does not make it any the less real or powerful.


----------



## phildwyer (Dec 27, 2005)

A quite surprising and revealing fact just struck me: despite having been born in Cardiff and lived in Penarth for my first 18 years, during which time I probably left Wales on less than 10 occasions, I have *never* in my whole life been north of Brecon.  I did spend lots of time in Camarthanshire, where my grandparents lived, but basically Wales for me *was* the Vale of Glamorgan and Cardiff.  I suspect that was a fairly typical experience.  I don't even remember *meeting* any gogs, although there were a few English kids at school.


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## RubberBuccaneer (Dec 27, 2005)

phildwyer said:
			
		

> Actually Pickman's, this raises an issue about which I have long harboured serious concerns.  Why will you insist on ending certain words with 'ck' instead of with a 'c' or a 'k,' and also on foolishly misspelling other words?  Do you think its cool or something?  Because I can assure you that everyone else here merely finds it *stupid* and *pathetic.*  I think this nonsense has gone on long enough.  You make yourself into even more of a clown that you already seem, which is really saying something.  Will you now stop your pretentious, rubbish and ludicrous attempts to be oh-so idiosyncratic?  Because I am telling you that you should.



It was cool in 1986 PTV.
Pickmans ov England


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## Dai Sheep (Dec 27, 2005)

Cardiff is much more aware of its 'Welshness' now I find, especially now that there are more and more Welsh institutions here. Cardiff is a lot more cosmopolitan here as there are a lot more ethnic minorities here and it is the main port of call for most people that visit or move to South Wales. But, on the whole I find people here have strong dual nationalities here; Welsh and British. But myself and most people I know have ALWAYS thought of themselves as Welsh.

I myself am a Welsh nationalist, but only since about three years ago when I began studying Welsh and 'British' history as part of my degree. I'm of the opinion (probably said this before) that Welsh culture and identity in the Anglicised parts of Wales CAN be weak because it is not taught at school - apart from a smattering of Welsh now and then, and the odd school Eisteddfod. People, are taught essentially English history in schools, not British, so many Welsh people know little that differentiates them from other nationalities. Also, the popular culture of England/America also has strong influence.


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## Pickman's model (Dec 27, 2005)

phildwyer said:
			
		

> Will you now stop your pretentious, rubbish and ludicrous attempts to be oh-so idiosyncratic?


no. 





> _ Because I am telling you that you should._


that's all the more reason to continue, imo.

phildwyer

after 18 months or 2 years of my heterography, i',m more than slightly set in my ways. and very good ways they are too. what gives you the delusion that yr the fucking arbiter of fucking right and wrong here? if you don't fucking like it, tough. if other people don't like it, tough. and could you please produce a shred of evidence to support yr fuckwitt'd contention that clew is spelt wrong?


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## Pickman's model (Dec 27, 2005)

RubberBuccaneer said:
			
		

> It was cool in 1986 PTV.
> Pickmans ov England


it has nothing to do with ptv.


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## lewislewis (Dec 27, 2005)

phildwyer said:
			
		

> Well, just from my own living memory of such things, I'd say that people in Cardiff felt less Welsh when I was at school in the 70's and 80's than they do now.  I think the Catatonia/Manics 'cool Cymru' phenomenon was a bit of a turning point.  That's when Spillers Records started having a 'Welsh' section, for one symptomatic example.  Also, there have always been *three* very different Welsh cultures: the Vale/Cardiff/Newport; the Valleys; and the Welsh speakers.  These three don't have all that much in common, and its arguable that Cardiff has more in common with somewhere like Manchester than with Merthyr or Llandeilo.  We used to make fun of kids with Valleys or west Welsh accents when I were a nipper.  Obviously of those three, the environs of Cardiff are the most Anglicized, and I don't find the cultural ambience in Barry or Cardiff to be greatly different from that in Manchester or Doncaster.  Just the accent really.  Whereas in Glasgow or Edinburgh, I feel like I'm in a foriegn country.  On the other hand, the working-class areas of Cardiff and Manchester both feel hugely different from w-c areas on the continent.  So I'd have to agree with Laptop that, in Cardiuff, Welsh identity is a recent construction, although I'd also agree with him that this does not make it any the less real or powerful.



I kind of agree with this.

Its not policy amongst youngsters to mock valleys accents anymore, in fact they're quite desirable which has led to the bizarre phenomenon of at least 1 younger guy I know from Cardiff putting on a fake Valleys accent to seem cooler! Sad man


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## lewislewis (Dec 27, 2005)

phildwyer said:
			
		

> A quite surprising and revealing fact just struck me: despite having been born in Cardiff and lived in Penarth for my first 18 years, during which time I probably left Wales on less than 10 occasions, I have *never* in my whole life been north of Brecon.  I did spend lots of time in Camarthanshire, where my grandparents lived, but basically Wales for me *was* the Vale of Glamorgan and Cardiff.  I suspect that was a fairly typical experience.  I don't even remember *meeting* any gogs, although there were a few English kids at school.



It was the same with me, I travelled loads but never into north Wales, it wasn't until i was 17 that I went to Welsh-speaking Wales, the towns look nothing like England and it is truly a different country, whereas Penarth and Barry wouldn't be out of place in England (except for the people who live in these towns- maybe not in Penarth's case). It is obvious that the Welsh identity is stronger in Welsh-speaking areas, but the relatively new Welshness in Cardiff, Barry, Newport is real, growing and is here to stay.


----------



## phildwyer (Dec 27, 2005)

lewislewis said:
			
		

> It was the same with me, I travelled loads but never into north Wales, it wasn't until i was 17 that I went to Welsh-speaking Wales, the towns look nothing like England and it is truly a different country, whereas Penarth and Barry wouldn't be out of place in England (except for the people who live in these towns- maybe not in Penarth's case). It is obvious that the Welsh identity is stronger in Welsh-speaking areas, but the relatively new Welshness in Cardiff, Barry, Newport is real, growing and is here to stay.



Actually, Penarth is a much misunderstood town.  Contrary to popular perception its about 80% working class, and until recently contained the toughest estate I've *ever* seen, the 'Billy Banks.'  In many ways its much more Welsh than Cardiff.  I'd also disagree that Welsh culture isn't taught in schools: we had to learn Welsh from 7 until 16, and in primary school kids got stood up in assembly for saying 'Good Morning' to the teachers instead of 'Bore da.'  We also had an equal amount of lessons devoted to Welsh history as to English, which always struck me as a bit daft, because let's face it, not much happened in Wales between 1500 and 1800.


----------



## Dai Sheep (Dec 27, 2005)

You could argue that 'not a lot' happened in Wales 1500-1800, but what about the years before and after? there were monumental changes to Wales and Welsh society. It dosent change the fact that British history was always taught from an anglo-centric perspective. I am 27, and was taught the national curriculum - I never had a single lesson on Welsh history between the ages of 5 and 16.

If you left and English speaking school with the ability to speak fluent Welsh, then I commend you. Unfortunately, I didnt have such an opportunity.   in my neck of the woods, where having not had any meaningful language lessons until high school, it was often difficult to learn and seemed alien to many of us.


----------



## neprimerimye (Dec 27, 2005)

phildwyer said:
			
		

> Actually, Penarth is a much misunderstood town.  Contrary to popular perception its about 80% working class, and until recently contained the toughest estate I've *ever* seen, the 'Billy Banks.'  In many ways its much more Welsh than Cardiff.



Yes Penarth is majority working class but the whole of UK PLC is majority working class. It doesn't change the fact that considerable parts of the town are very well of indeed. Both secondary schools score very well in all the league tables and so on. And as you point out Welsh medium education is reasonably well provided. Largely due to the pressure exerted by middle class parents who perceive Welsh medium education as superior.

Compare Penarth to say Caerphilly and the superior material stuation of the former is very clear. The latter has poor schools and falling school lists as a result of the decanting of the population. It also has low property prices. Nothing is open on a Sunday. Neither town has any appreciable employment other than shops so it can be fairly presumed that most of the working population of both fiind employment in or around Cardiff.

What we have here is a regionalisation of the economy hence the dissolution of discrete regional identities. Many better off skilled people seek homes in Penarth for reasons of schooling and for other advantages while many less well paid workers move to Caerphilly as property is cheap. Politically Penarth has therefore long been Tory or right wing labur while in Caerphilly the council swings between the aged clueless hacks of a declining Labour Party and the similarly clueless almost as aged hacks of Plaid Cymru. The only bone of contention being which school to close.

PS If you think the Billy Banks was hard you ain't seen nothing. Had the council installed secure doorways from the off and had not dumped too many problem families and single mothers there it would never have been the minor problem it was. Inside those flats were quite good by the standards of council housing. I've seen far worse estates.


----------



## neprimerimye (Dec 27, 2005)

Dai Sheep said:
			
		

> Cardiff is much more aware of its 'Welshness' now I find, especially now that there are more and more Welsh institutions here. Cardiff is a lot more cosmopolitan here as there are a lot more ethnic minorities here and it is the main port of call for most people that visit or move to South Wales. But, on the whole I find people here have strong dual nationalities here; Welsh and British. But myself and most people I know have ALWAYS thought of themselves as Welsh.
> 
> I myself am a Welsh nationalist, but only since about three years ago when I began studying Welsh and 'British' history as part of my degree. I'm of the opinion (probably said this before) that Welsh culture and identity in the Anglicised parts of Wales CAN be weak because it is not taught at school - apart from a smattering of Welsh now and then, and the odd school Eisteddfod. People, are taught essentially English history in schools, not British, so many Welsh people know little that differentiates them from other nationalities. Also, the popular culture of England/America also has strong influence.



Cardiff has been the most ethnically diverse town in Wales for a hundred years. No new major All Wales institution has moved here other than their Assembly. And 25% of people living in Wales were born elsewhere mostly in England of course. So, whats new?

Moving on I don't understand your comments regarding Welsh history and culture not being taught in schools. Why should identity be taught? Indeed how can identity be taught? Surely it should be left to each individual to decide on his/her identity? Do you really think it positive for youth to be indoctrinated into a Welsh, or any other, identity? The only political forces I know of that want identity to be indoctrinated into school age youth are the Daily Mail and the Tory right wing. Don't you think it rather foolish to echo them?

As for only a smattering of Welsh being taught I rather wonder what school you attended. It is the law that all state secondary schools must teach Welsh to the age of 16 I believe. Which does not prevent many pupils 'forgetting' most of their Welsh soon after doing their exams if my 17 year old niece is to be believed.

I'm also baffled by the comment that no Welsh history is taught. The problem arising really because very little history is taught at all. And what is taught is usually pretty bland as nobody dares to break away from a concensus that concentrates on Henry and Hitler as a recent report put it (and my niece I might add). History teaching was actualy far better before the national curriculem, though quite patchy I admit, and i for one was taught both British and Welsh history. Which is one very good reason for rejecting both the myths of British and Welsh nationalism.


----------



## lewislewis (Dec 27, 2005)

phildwyer said:
			
		

> Actually, Penarth is a much misunderstood town.  Contrary to popular perception its about 80% working class, and until recently contained the toughest estate I've *ever* seen, the 'Billy Banks.'  In many ways its much more Welsh than Cardiff.  I'd also disagree that Welsh culture isn't taught in schools: we had to learn Welsh from 7 until 16, and in primary school kids got stood up in assembly for saying 'Good Morning' to the teachers instead of 'Bore da.'  We also had an equal amount of lessons devoted to Welsh history as to English, which always struck me as a bit daft, because let's face it, not much happened in Wales between 1500 and 1800.



What school did you go to??!

Learn Welsh? As in, learn to become a Welsh speaker?


----------



## Karac (Dec 27, 2005)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> I'm also baffled by the comment that no Welsh history is taught. The problem arising really because very little history is taught at all. And what is taught is usually pretty bland as nobody dares to break away from a concensus that concentrates on Henry and Hitler as a recent report put it (and my niece I might add). History teaching was actualy far better before the national curriculem, though quite patchy I admit, and i for one was taught both British and Welsh history. Which is one very good reason for rejecting both the myths of British and Welsh nationalism.


AFAIK no Welsh history is taught -well it wasnt when i was at school in Cardiff.
Ok Nep-whatever your name is as a middle-class Trot.
Your not that old bloke who used to be in Militant and then joined the swappies?
The "myth" of British Nationalism has been a destructive force leading to the enslavement of a third of the World,The deaths of millions of ididigenous peoples  across the Globe.
Native Americans,Aborigines,Indians.
The "myth" of Welsh Nationalism-there isnt one.


----------



## neprimerimye (Dec 28, 2005)

Karac said:
			
		

> AFAIK no Welsh history is taught -well it wasnt when i was at school in Cardiff.
> Ok Nep-whatever your name is as a middle-class Trot.
> Your not that old bloke who used to be in Militant and then joined the swappies?
> The "myth" of British Nationalism has been a destructive force leading to the enslavement of a third of the World,The deaths of millions of ididigenous peoples  across the Globe.
> ...



At the comprehensive school I attended Welsh history was taught. This before the national curriculum bear in mind. Due to the efforts of the departmental head who was an exceptional man to whom I remain grateful.

Your rather silly and insulting speculation about my identity is peurile. But I'm most certainly not middle class. Nor am I a member of either the SWP or the former RSL.

You are however correct that it is a myth that British nationalism lead to the deaths of millions of indigenous peoples. It is far more accurate to say that it was capitalism that caused the deaths of millions of peoples including so called indigenous peoples.

All nationalisms are myths my friend. The basic idea of nationalism is that there is a community of interest between all those deemed to belong to a given nation. In fact there is no such community of interest. For example the workers of Wales have nothing in common with Welsh bosses and managers. On the other hand the workers of Wales have a great deal in common with Polish workers in say London. Just as Welsh bosses and mamagers have much in common with bosses and managers elsewhere.


----------



## editor (Dec 28, 2005)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> ll nationalisms are myths my friend. The basic idea of nationalism is that there is a community of interest between all those deemed to belong to a given nation. In fact there is no such community of interest.


Don't go to rugby internationals much, then?


----------



## laptop (Dec 28, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> Don't go to rugby internationals much, then?



I think you've put your finger on the other thing sport is *for*.

The first being a ready supply of pseudo-news to distract people from events which affect their lives and about which they could do something, were they not distracted. ( © Noam Chomsky)


----------



## editor (Dec 28, 2005)

laptop said:
			
		

> The first being a ready supply of pseudo-news to distract people from events which affect their lives and about which they could do something, were they not distracted. ( © Noam Chomsky)


Chomsky wants to get his arse down to the footie.


----------



## laptop (Dec 28, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> Chomsky wants to get his arse down to the footie.



It may feel to you as though sport is "natural" and Noam has conducted the world's most elaborate excuse for denying nature. 

But trust me, he doesn't.

And if it is unnatural, he's entitled to be "unnatural", sweetie-pie


----------



## editor (Dec 28, 2005)

laptop said:
			
		

> It may feel to you as though sport is "natural" and Noam has conducted the world's most elaborate excuse for denying nature.
> 
> But trust me, he doesn't.


If he doesn't understand the appeal of footie - whether it be watching world class teams or village hoofers, or playing in competitive games or just having a kick around on the pitch - then there's nothing he can say on the subject that's going to interest me.

But then again, what do most Yanks know about the appeal, the excitement and the passion of (ahem) _soccer?_


----------



## lewislewis (Dec 28, 2005)

By playing football on a saturday for an amateur team how am I creating 'pseudo news' and distracting people from their lives? Chomsky is decent, but what a crazy idea!


----------



## neprimerimye (Dec 28, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> Don't go to rugby internationals much, then?



You are refering to the commercial spectacle invented by English public school boys?

Shirley genuine Welsh patriots should be training with the long bow in case of the need to wage a war of national liberation?


----------



## RubberBuccaneer (Dec 28, 2005)

laptop said:
			
		

> I think you've put your finger on the other thing sport is *for*.
> 
> The first being a ready supply of pseudo-news to distract people from events which affect their lives and about which they could do something, were they not distracted. ( © Noam Chomsky)



So apart from activists, those people who neither play or follow sport, are they rioting, objecting, building local amenities? 
No they're just like the majority of people, trying to get on with their lives.

That quote makes it seem that sport is the new opium of the masses, you could add in celebrities, reality tv , soaps, music ,and political parties?

Take them away and I don't believe those watching will suddenly become interested.


----------



## laptop (Dec 28, 2005)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> You are refering to the commercial spectacle invented by English public school boys?



You are in _such_ trouble...

Look up (the history of) "League" and "Federation", and do it before editor wakes up...


----------



## editor (Dec 28, 2005)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> You are refering to the commercial spectacle invented by English public school boys?


You really haven't a clue, have you?

Who do you think plays and watches rugby in Wales?


----------



## Brockway (Dec 28, 2005)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> As far as I'm aware the migration of Italians to South Wales was for economic reasons. Most coming from the underdeveloped south. At the same time there was massive migration to the then industrializing north of Italy. And in the 1930's a pretty large chunk of the French working class was Italian (or, similar to UK now, Polish). Why a relatively small group decided to come to South Wales and then spread out across the entire region I have no idea. Some bright young thing will write a Phd one day no doubt.



According to Colin Hughes' _Lime, Lemon and Sarsaparilla - The Italian Community in South Wales 1881-1945_ there were more than 300 Italian cafes in South Wales by the mid-1930s! The pioneers (Bernis, Rabaiottis, Rossis, Sidolis, Bassinis etc) appear to have come from northern Italy (80%), the Ceno valley in particular, in the 1880s. The author states however that these weren't the first Italians in South Wales - before them had come sailors, musicians and statue makers!

Apparently in the early 1900s large numbers of Italian boys were specially brought over to work in the cafe trade - pushing ice-cream carts around the streets etc. They would graduate to a horse and cart, then manage new cafes on a profit sharing basis.

It's a quality book - I had it for Xmas, you should check it out, and has a foreword by er, Victor Spinetti.


----------



## Brockway (Dec 28, 2005)

"Who do you think plays and watches rugby in Wales?"

As anyone who reads this board will know the great rift in Welsh life is between class and nation. The reason egg chasing is so popular (at a national level) is because it unites these two factions, particularly when we play Ingurland. Nationalists like it because it's a chance to give the English a kicking; Socialists like it because in Wales it's a working-class game and in England it's a public school game - so it's a chance to put one over the toffs. Cultural harmony through sport.


----------



## editor (Dec 28, 2005)

Brockway said:
			
		

> According to Colin Hughes' _Lime, Lemon and Sarsaparilla - The Italian Community in South Wales 1881-1945_ there were more than 300 Italian cafes in South Wales by the mid-1930s!


There used to be a great sarsaparilla bar in Morgan Arcade in Cardiff!


----------



## RubberBuccaneer (Dec 28, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> There used to be a great sarsaparilla bar in Morgan Arcade in Cardiff!



Big thick glasses  

I had some root beer the other day and it is saspirilla ( a long forgotten taste re-ignited )


----------



## Dai Sheep (Dec 28, 2005)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> Cardiff has been the most ethnically diverse town in Wales for a hundred years. No new major All Wales institution has moved here other than their Assembly. And 25% of people living in Wales were born elsewhere mostly in England of course. So, whats new?
> 
> *Nowhere in my post did I refute Cardiff's cosmopolitan past or say that it was a  new phenomena*.
> 
> ...


We are all entitled to our beliefs, you may think nationalism is a myth, but it permeates almost every facet of society and it is here to stay. I happen to believe that the socialism that is often espoused on these boards is also romantic, idealistic and ultimately unworkable.


----------



## neprimerimye (Dec 28, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> Who do you think plays and watches rugby in Wales?



Well from what I gather Rugby is played by Charlotte Churchs boyfriend and is watched by oafish beer swilling swine.   

In my now long distant schooldays it was played by those elements who were most marked by their propensity for bullying, misogyny and homophobia. In my days at Newport HE College as was by seeming Tories.

I'm also sure that most Rugby fans are perfectly decent types but it strikes me as a rather weak national deology that must place such emphasis on what is after all a mere game.


----------



## editor (Dec 28, 2005)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> Well from what I gather Rugby is played by Charlotte Churchs boyfriend and is watched by oafish beer swilling swine.


So you _definitely_ haven't got a clue then?

Still, nice to see your true opinion of the predominantly working class crowd that go to Welsh rugby matches.



When was the last Welsh rugby international you attended?

How about football? Been to see any Welsh clubs play recently?
Who do you support?


----------



## neprimerimye (Dec 28, 2005)

Dai Sheep said:
			
		

> In all fairness, 'identity' being taught was a poor term to use. What I meant was that people form a lot of their identity on cultural and historical events and influences, so if they are only being taught one perspective i.e. English/British, then naturally Welsh influences fall by the wayside somewhat. Meaning that the inevitable outcome is a weak Welsh identity.
> 
> I do not want anyone to be indoctrinated whatsoever. I just think people should be able to decide to form an identity with a greater historical/cultural awareness, rather than just from a single, narrow viewpoint as is the case now.
> 
> ...



Sure social identity is formed on the basis of cultural and historical awareness. Which makes the teaching of history a political question as I think we can agree. But to me your argument that more Welsh history should be taught - which in principle I agree with - sounds rather like the Daily Mail's argument that British History, meaning the glories of Empire and so forth, in order to bolster a national identity which they see slipping away.

Now if you are going to teach say British History then teach it fairly and include information on the Indian Mutiny and the Slave Trade. But that is what the Daily Mail wants to exclude from the curriculum is it not? Similarly if you are going to teach Welsh history then you must also teach the 1926 General Strike and not simply concentrate on the Princes of North Wales or Methodist splits in the 19th century. More generally why does the teaching of history exclude the centrality of class conflict to all hitherto existing socieities?

I've no idea how many hours Welsh is taught in English medium schools these days. That it should be taught is of course proper and correct in a nation which has two national languages. But you really don't have the right t demand that it be taught to the detriment of other subject areas which children need to master as you would seem to be suggesting. Nor can you expect children to form a positive Welsh identity simply from school time experiences. Indeed if you expect the schools to do that job for you then it is clearly the case that in the rest of their lives Welshness really is nothing much more than a matter of following a rugby football game.

You most certainly are entitled to your beliefs and I'll defend to my dying day your right to believe any kind of nonsense you wish to believe. But nationalisms are relatively new to humanity and there is no reason to presume that they are here to stay or will outlast the capitalism that spawned them. If Welsh nationalism is not a myth then you needs must explain why this is so which I note you fail to do.


----------



## editor (Dec 28, 2005)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> But nationalisms are relatively new to humanity and there is no reason to presume that they are here to stay or will outlast the capitalism that spawned them.


So you don't see nationalism as simply being a modern expression of a form of tribalism, which has been around since the beginning of human history?


----------



## neprimerimye (Dec 28, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> So you _definitely_ haven't got a clue then?
> 
> Still, nice to see your true opinion of the predominantly working class crowd that go to Welsh rugby matches.
> 
> ...



it is you that has not a clue when you fail to quote my comment that most fans of rugby are decent types. Naughty editor.

Curious that you should mention that the followers of rugby are predominantly working class - none to hard in a country 90% working class I should imagine - but what of those who control the game?

Why must I have any interest in sport anyhow? Has a law been passed making it compulsory? Is your sense of national identity so weak that those who do not share your leisure interests are to be cast out?


----------



## neprimerimye (Dec 28, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> So you don't see nationalism as simply being a modern expression of a form of tribalism, which has been around since the beginning of human history?



No.

In fact I dispute your assertion that 'tribes' have been around since the beginning of human history. In any case as a civilised person I understand that the barbarian tribes are a threat to civilisation and must be kept out of the city.

(Btw Ta to Brockway for reference to the book on Italian Welsh I'll look it out one day).

When did the Sasparilla bar in the Morgan Arcade shut? Anyone know. Some time in the mid-1980's when I lived away I think but it was very shabby in the 1970's as I recall.


----------



## editor (Dec 28, 2005)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> Why must I have any interest in sport anyhow? Has a law been passed making it compulsory? Is your sense of national identity so weak that those who do not share your leisure interests are to be cast out?


Congratulations! You've managed to avoid answering every single question in my post!

_What _a swerve!


----------



## Dai Sheep (Dec 28, 2005)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> Sure social identity is formed on the basis of cultural and historical awareness. Which makes the teaching of history a political question as I think we can agree. But to me your argument that more Welsh history should be taught - which in principle I agree with - sounds rather like the Daily Mail's argument that British History, meaning the glories of Empire and so forth, in order to bolster a national identity which they see slipping away.
> 
> 
> Now if you are going to teach say British History then teach it fairly and include information on the Indian Mutiny and the Slave Trade. But that is what the Daily Mail wants to exclude from the curriculum is it not? Similarly if you are going to teach Welsh history then you must also teach the 1926 General Strike and not simply concentrate on the Princes of North Wales or Methodist splits in the 19th century. More generally why does the teaching of history exclude the centrality of class conflict to all hitherto existing socieities?
> ...



*Nationalism and nationalist connotations (not just Welsh) are all around us, you only have to switch on the TV, or a radio, read a newspaper or even walk through a supermarket (or even at a sporting event!).*


----------



## phildwyer (Dec 28, 2005)

lewislewis said:
			
		

> What school did you go to??!
> 
> Learn Welsh? As in, learn to become a Welsh speaker?



I went to Stanwell Rd Comprehensive.  Definitely majority working class.  Yes, we were taught Welsh with the aim of making us Welsh speakers, but most of us couldn't be bothered with it.


----------



## phildwyer (Dec 29, 2005)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> PS If you think the Billy Banks was hard you ain't seen nothing. Had the council installed secure doorways from the off and had not dumped too many problem families and single mothers there it would never have been the minor problem it was. Inside those flats were quite good by the standards of council housing. I've seen far worse estates.



I assure you that I've seen plenty of sink estates, in the UK and also in New York City.  The Billy Banks was worse than anything, anywhere.  They had a nice view admittedly, but the inhabitants were tougher than tougher than tough.  The environs still are, have a drink in the Clive Arms sometime, or the Royal, or the Plymouth (before it was burned down).  The *dogs* will kick your arse up there, let alone the humans.


----------



## lewislewis (Dec 29, 2005)

phildwyer said:
			
		

> I went to Stanwell Rd Comprehensive.  Definitely majority working class.  Yes, we were taught Welsh with the aim of making us Welsh speakers, but most of us couldn't be bothered with it.



Stanwell, I know it well.

It isn't a Welsh Medium school as you know, so it would've been illegal for the school to teach you to be Welsh speakers.


----------



## Funky_monks (Dec 29, 2005)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> Well from what I gather Rugby is played by Charlotte Churchs boyfriend and is watched by oafish beer swilling swine.
> 
> In my now long distant schooldays it was played by those elements who were most marked by their propensity for bullying, misogyny and homophobia. In my days at Newport HE College as was by seeming Tories.
> 
> I'm also sure that most Rugby fans are perfectly decent types but it strikes me as a rather weak national deology that must place such emphasis on what is after all a mere game.




Excellent commentary.


I hereby invite you to a pub of my chosing in Neath (or Ponty, Merthyr, or Llanelli) to espouse those same views.......


----------



## neprimerimye (Dec 29, 2005)

phildwyer said:
			
		

> I assure you that I've seen plenty of sink estates, in the UK and also in New York City.  The Billy Banks was worse than anything, anywhere.  They had a nice view admittedly, but the inhabitants were tougher than tougher than tough.  The environs still are, have a drink in the Clive Arms sometime, or the Royal, or the Plymouth (before it was burned down).  The *dogs* will kick your arse up there, let alone the humans.



Well I never found the area terribly rough or tough. I've been in and out of those flats for many long years too btw and until they were decanted a brother lived in one of the maisonettes with his brood.

Nor have I ever thought the pubs you mention tough. The regulars of the Clive are really a bunch of sweeties when you get to know them. Mind the Royal was a dump I agree but not hard just a bit pathetic.

Each to their own I suppose.


----------



## neprimerimye (Dec 29, 2005)

Funky_monks said:
			
		

> Excellent commentary.
> 
> I hereby invite you to a pub of my chosing in Neath (or Ponty, Merthyr, or Llanelli) to espouse those same views.......



It is with regret that I must decline your kind invitation as I never knowingly travel west of the Ely or north of Whitchurch. In any event I strongly suspect that my remarks would be well proven by attempts to lynch me by the barbarian hordes who I am given to understand inhabit these obscure environs.

Just as your post is prove perfect of my contention that those who so closely identify their national identity with a game are in essence buffoons. Despite my fondness for Japanese rock bands I've never yet thought of myself as Japanese!


----------



## editor (Dec 29, 2005)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> Just as your post is prove perfect of my contention that those who so closely identify their national identity with a game are in essence buffoons.


You're coming over more like a clueless snob and/or troll with every post.


----------



## neprimerimye (Dec 29, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> Congratulations! You've managed to avoid answering every single question in my post!
> 
> _What _a swerve!



In point of fact I answered one of your questions in post 169. The others are impertinant and no concern of yours. Moreover it is completely besides the point whether or not I have attended rugby internationals.

On the opther hand I have in my turn asked you a series of questions none of which you have ven touched on. This is I suspect due to the extreme weakness of your case.


----------



## neprimerimye (Dec 29, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> You're coming over more like a clueless snob and/or troll with every post.



Disagreeing with you is neither snobbery or trolling.

You like a game invented at an elite English public school and I like obscure Japanese avant rock bands.

Shirley such a diversity of interests is healthy?


----------



## editor (Dec 29, 2005)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> In point of fact I answered one of your questions in post 169. The others are impertinant and no concern of yours. Moreover it is completely besides the point whether or not I have attended rugby internationals.


Sorry to interrupt your fantasy, but the fact is that I'm still waiting patiently for answers to these questions:



> When was the last Welsh rugby international you attended?
> 
> How about football? Been to see any Welsh clubs play recently?
> Who do you support?


 Seeing as you've been at liberty to repeatedly condemn sporting crowds it would be nice to know what you're actually basing these opinions on.

Any chance of finally providing an answer now please?


----------



## editor (Dec 29, 2005)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> You like a game invented at an elite English public school and I like obscure Japanese avant rock bands.
> 
> Shirley such a diversity of interests is healthy?


Another piss weak wriggle.

How about you stay on topic and support your assertions?


----------



## neprimerimye (Dec 29, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> Sorry to interrupt your fantasy, but the fact is that I'm still waiting patiently for answers to these questions:
> 
> Seeing as you've been at liberty to repeatedly condemn sporting crowds it would be nice to know what you're actually basing these opinions on.
> 
> Any chance of finally providing an answer now please?



It is no fantasy of mine that it is not in any sense relevant to a discussion concerning the city and people of Cardiff to discuss my record of attendance of rugby football matches.

Nor have you been waiting patiently for answers to your impertinant questions given that you have seen fit to repeat them a number of times now. A wait that will be indefinitely prolonged I might add.

But do you object to my being at liberty to voice my opinions of spectators of rugby games? Which opinion I repeat is that most are perfectly decent types. By the way which do you object to most my being at liberty to voice my opinion or the opinion itself? I'm waiting for an answer! Quick, pronto!!   

Again I repeat that it is buffoonery to consider that a liking for a commercially driven sport is a vital part of national identity. But for now good night sweeties.


----------



## phildwyer (Dec 29, 2005)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> The regulars of the Clive are really a bunch of sweeties when you get to know them.



Well I am certainly one of those regulars, so I suppose we must be acquainted IRL?  And its true that I am a sweetie.


----------



## phildwyer (Dec 29, 2005)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> The regulars of the Clive are really a bunch of sweeties when you get to know them. Mind the Royal was a dump I agree but not hard just a bit pathetic.



Actually, I think I know who you are--Iuan, right?  I can't properly spell your name, but you're from the SWP, am I right?  If so, Hiya, you know me quite well, PM me and I'll buy you a pint in January...


----------



## phildwyer (Dec 29, 2005)

Also, neprimerimye, if you're who I think you are, you know very well that the Royal was fucking hard (albeit a bit pathetic as well.)  As are the Albion, the Pilot etc.


----------



## neprimerimye (Dec 29, 2005)

phildwyer said:
			
		

> Also, neprimerimye, if you're who I think you are, you know very well that the Royal was fucking hard (albeit a bit pathetic as well.)  As are the Albion, the Pilot etc.



He's no longer a member of the SWP I believe. Though he in Respect the populist coalition - sad git. And I can't remember how to spell his name either.

Well all the pubs you have named were hard once upon a time. In my Grandfathers time.

Honestly I've never had any trouble in any of them. Seen a bit over the years mind. But never anything much. Heard tell of a lot worse. Mostly bullshit.

Seriously I've never had concerns in the hardest pubs I''ve been in and I make enemies easily! Treat the fuckers with respect and they leave you alone I find.

It's city centre drinkeries that worry me a little as violence can be random and hard to predict thus avoid. And I really do like to avoid violence as a general rule.


----------



## neprimerimye (Dec 29, 2005)

phildwyer said:
			
		

> Also the Royal was fucking hard albeit a bit pathetic as well.



A few years ago I attended a wedding reception, on Halloween, at The Royal. That was truly pathetic. Anyone who drinks in The Clive will know the since divorced groom. Which reminds me I really ought to call around his place today as he ain't too well again. Who knows I may even visit The Clive?


----------



## phildwyer (Dec 29, 2005)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> A few years ago I attended a wedding reception, on Halloween, at The Royal. That was truly pathetic. Anyone who drinks in The Clive will know the since divorced groom. Which reminds me I really ought to call around his place today as he ain't too well again. Who knows I may even visit The Clive?



I do indeed know him, although I believe he frequents the Windsor these days.  Also, rumour has it that he and his ex are now an item once more.  I saw him last week, he seemed alright to me--well, as alright as he ever is.


----------



## phildwyer (Dec 29, 2005)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> He's no longer a member of the SWP I believe. Though he in Respect the populist coalition - sad git. And I can't remember how to spell his name either.
> 
> Well all the pubs you have named were hard once upon a time. In my Grandfathers time.
> 
> ...



I've never had any trouble up town either, although I've seen plenty, and by no means was it bullshit either.  Best fight I saw at the Clive was a one-legged biker kicking (yes kicking) the crap out of someone (who was himself reputed to be fairly hard) who had mocked his inability to get off with a stripogram girl.  Oh yes, we had stripogram girls up the Clive in them days.  But seriously, I would rank the (mercifully now defunct) Royal among the top 5 hardest pubs of *all* time, let alone my grandfather's.


----------



## editor (Dec 29, 2005)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> But do you object to my being at liberty to voice my opinions of spectators of rugby games?


Not at all, but I certainly  object to ignorant stereotyping.

So if you don't go to rugby or football games, what are you basing your unpleasant stereotypes on? Snobbery?

Oh, and I think you'll find most rugby played in Wales is not "commercially driven", not that you'd know anything about the subject.


----------



## nwnm (Dec 29, 2005)

"He's no longer a member of the SWP I believe" Mr Counsell is still in fact a member of the SWP - Nep's info on the SWP remains as dodgy as ever    (as with RESPECT, Rugby Union, the Welsh Language etc etc........)

People are allowed to like things despite the fact that others who follow the same things have the potential to be complete arseholes. CLR James for example, whilst being an outstanding political activist and early critic of stalinism from a state cap perspective, was also potty about cricket ( as are left wing figures such as Mike Marqusee and Mark Steel). Work that one out!


----------



## neprimerimye (Dec 30, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> Not at all, but I certainly  object to ignorant stereotyping.
> 
> So if you don't go to rugby or football games, what are you basing your unpleasant stereotypes on? Snobbery?
> 
> Oh, and I think you'll find most rugby played in Wales is not "commercially driven", not that you'd know anything about the subject.



Oh how I wish I was ignorant of rugby football!

As for the so called ignorant stereotypes why do you object to my describing rugby fans as 'mostly decent types'? 

As for rugby not being commercially driven if that is so then it is unique among major sports. Face facts the international and major teams are bought and paid for by TV and clothing companies. Without sponsorship and so forth the players would not ven look at the game. As for the minor clubs and players they too are sponsored by commercial interests to a considerable extent. Even the 'pure amateurs' wear clothing and boots from the major companies and are in one way or antoher supported by them.


----------



## neprimerimye (Dec 30, 2005)

nwnm said:
			
		

> Mr Counsell is still in fact a member of the SWP - Nep's info on the SWP remains as dodgy as ever    (as with RESPECT, Rugby Union, the Welsh Language etc etc........)
> 
> People are allowed to like things despite the fact that others who follow the same things have the potential to be complete arseholes. CLR James for example, whilst being an outstanding political activist and early critic of stalinism from a state cap perspective, was also potty about cricket ( as are left wing figures such as Mike Marqusee and Mark Steel). Work that one out!



I cannot restrain my joy in learning that Iueun is still a member of the smallest (and shrinking) mass party in the world as the SWP once described itself.   

I can only imagine that my grievous error lies in my rather old fashioned understanding that a member of the SWP is one who is active not simply someone who pays subs from time to time as with the major bourgeois parties. Or Respect.

I'm also over joyed to learn that Nwnm I of the opinion that 'people are allowed to like things'. A devastating piece of Marxist dialectics working that one out I must say. Truly inspiring thought from a leader of the vanguard.


----------



## editor (Dec 30, 2005)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> As for the so called ignorant stereotypes why do you object to my describing rugby fans as 'mostly decent types'?


...and...



			
				neprimerimye said:
			
		

> Well from what I gather Rugby is played by Charlotte Churchs boyfriend and is watched by oafish beer swilling swine.


Funny how you forgot that bit, isn't it?

Is there any sport you like?


----------



## nwnm (Dec 30, 2005)

but ed thats just Nep being all dialectical materialist like


----------



## RubberBuccaneer (Dec 30, 2005)

CAn we have a quick roll call as to what everyones politics are?

I'm getting very confused here trying to follow it.

Neither Warrington nor Mansfield but international Cardiffism


----------



## neprimerimye (Dec 30, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> Is there any sport you like?



Do my leisure interests have any relevance to a thread concerning national and class consciousness in Cardiff?


----------



## neprimerimye (Dec 30, 2005)

nwnm said:
			
		

> but ed thats just Nep being all dialectical materialist like



As is so often the case you are confused.

In no sense what so ever am I a 'dialectical materialist'.


----------



## Karac (Dec 30, 2005)

phildwyer said:
			
		

> Also, there have always been *three* very different Welsh cultures: the Vale/Cardiff/Newport; the Valleys; and the Welsh speakers.  These three don't have all that much in common


I dont think this is true-take my family-me and Dad born in Cardiff -Nan from the Valleys-extended family apparently from Welsh-speaking Carmarthenshire-all in the space of a few generations.


----------



## phildwyer (Dec 31, 2005)

RubberBuccaneer said:
			
		

> CAn we have a quick roll call as to what everyones politics are?
> 
> I'm getting very confused here trying to follow it.



Unaffiliated Marxist here.  Personally, I'm getting very confused trying to work out who everyone is irl: clearly I know several of you but I'm dashed if I can identify you.  Unless nep is Taffy, back from the grave?


----------



## phildwyer (Dec 31, 2005)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> I cannot restrain my joy in learning that Iueun is still a member of the smallest (and shrinking) mass party in the world as the SWP once described itself.
> 
> I can only imagine that my grievous error lies in my rather old fashioned understanding that a member of the SWP is one who is active not simply someone who pays subs from time to time as with the major bourgeois parties. Or Respect.



He's still active in the SWP, I saw him giving out anti-war leaflets outside the arcade a few months back.  Has been for at least twenty years, can't fault the lad's commitment.


----------



## Funky_monks (Dec 31, 2005)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> It is with regret that I must decline your kind invitation as I never knowingly travel west of the Ely or north of Whitchurch. In any event I strongly suspect that my remarks would be well proven by attempts to lynch me by the barbarian hordes who I am given to understand inhabit these obscure environs.
> 
> Just as your post is prove perfect of my contention that those who so closely identify their national identity with a game are in essence buffoons. Despite my fondness for Japanese rock bands I've never yet thought of myself as Japanese!



So, the people who live in the South Wales valleys (possibly the most populous in Wales) are "barbarian hordes"?

Unfortunatley, (or not) many people in many nations choose to express their national idenity through the medium of sport, and I don't think that you could choose a better example than Rugby to illustrate what benifits a sport can bring to otherwise financially impoverished areas, just look at the 'grass roots' rugby schemes in wales, something which is, IMO a credit to the RFU in promoting a sense of fair play, etc which I feel is sadly lacking, for example, in football these days.


----------



## neprimerimye (Dec 31, 2005)

phildwyer said:
			
		

> Unaffiliated Marxist here.  Personally, I'm getting very confused trying to work out who everyone is irl: clearly I know several of you but I'm dashed if I can identify you.  Unless nep is Taffy, back from the grave?



Why waste effort in trying to work out who particular posters are? Why not judge posters on the basis of their posts? And do you not think it highly unlikely that I would call myself Taffy?

For the record I've nothing but respect for Iueun's (and Nwnm's) commitment to the cause of the SWP. Although it no longer seems to be the same cause I recruited him too twenty years ago.


----------



## neprimerimye (Dec 31, 2005)

Funky_monks said:
			
		

> So, the people who live in the South Wales valleys (possibly the most populous in Wales) are "barbarian hordes"?
> 
> Unfortunatley, (or not) many people in many nations choose to express their national idenity through the medium of sport, and I don't think that you could choose a better example than Rugby to illustrate what benifits a sport can bring to otherwise financially impoverished areas, just look at the 'grass roots' rugby schemes in wales, something which is, IMO a credit to the RFU in promoting a sense of fair play, etc which I feel is sadly lacking, for example, in football these days.



Are you really so daft as to not be able to understand sarcasm? For what it is worth I suspect there are many barbarians in Cardiff too. Snivilisation is endangered by the creep of mediocrity and the modern day barbarians are the new gods.

As for your post I note that the Valleys region, if such a thing can be said to exist, is not the most populous cultural region of Wales any longer. The South East Wales coastal strip running from Newport to Barry has that dubious distinction. In any event is it not the case that the Valleys are increasingly denatured as its distinctive character is eroded? I would suggest that this is a product of the regions deindustrilisation and the the socio-political changes that has wrought. Indeed entire Valleys towns now are economically dead functioning as little more than dormitories for workers who live and play in the coastal strip/M4 Corridor region.

Certainly many nations chose to express their national identity through sport. Social units below the level of the nation also choose to express identity through sport too you will note. For example the role of Rugby League in the wastenesses of northern England or the unique Baseball following in Cardiff. Sometimes such an identification with a sport can have politically positive virtues no doubt where a national sport is banned.

My argument is that if a nation over invests in a single sport and defines itself by that sport alone then it may fairly be deemed to be lacking other, deeper, ideological roots. This it seems to me is the case with Rugby, particularly in the English speaking regions, and it is not healthy for Rugby in the long run. To a considerable degree this opinion arises because this over emphasis on Rugby in Wales is stoked by the same media that exists on a diet of lies and half truths. A media that will happily report the latest exploit of the national team on several pages but will only mention in passing job losses at NEG or Sony. A media that will report Katherine Jenkins 'singing' for 'our boys' but disparages working people at every opportuunity.

You write that the WRU is doing a good job promoting a sense of fair play and in pumping money into poor areas. Frankly I think you're naive in that you do not ask where that money comes from which they spend so generously. Well my friend it comes from over priced tickets and from fees charged on TV rights. Which in the final analysis you and other supporters pay for yet it would appear that it is fine in your book for an unelected body to spend those funds pump priming. And that is what they are doing when they invest in facilities for small clubs they are priming essential markets and bribing those who run those clubs for their influence in the lower ranks of the Rugby hierarchy. A sense of fair play may be more easily found in Rugny Football than in Association Football but for how much longer when a tiny handful of star players are promoted in a fashion identical to the empty celeb culture of the other game?


----------



## editor (Dec 31, 2005)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> Do my leisure interests have any relevance to a thread concerning national and class consciousness in Cardiff?


Yet another 'politician-style' wriggle duly noted.

Why are you unable to answer simple questions related to the discussion?


----------



## pk (Dec 31, 2005)

phildwyer said:
			
		

> He's still active in the SWP, I saw him giving out anti-war leaflets outside the arcade a few months back.  Has been for at least twenty years, can't fault the lad's commitment.



Is mental illness some kind of SWP badge of honour?

Forget commitment, have the poor sod sectioned... for feck's sake.

20 years???

Poor bastard.


----------



## neprimerimye (Dec 31, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> Yet another 'politician-style' wriggle duly noted.
> 
> Why are you unable to answer simple questions related to the discussion?



If you explain the relevance of the question and convince me that it is indeed germane to this thread then I shall happily answer you. In the meantime I note that you have thus far failed to answer any of the questions which I have put to you.

Funnily enough I was rather good at rugby when a mere stripling. Although not ever being able to actually see the fucking ball was a bit of a handicap - well I saw it but not where it actually was. Poor eyesight you know.


----------



## editor (Dec 31, 2005)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> If you explain the relevance of the question and convince me that it is indeed germane to this thread then I shall happily answer you.


You're completely forgotten all your references to sport throughout this thread?

 

And what are these _important_ questions of yours that I've supposedly failed to answer?


----------



## neprimerimye (Dec 31, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> You're completely forgotten all your references to sport throughout this thread?
> 
> And what are these _important_ questions of yours that I've supposedly failed to answer?



Although my advancing years have seen the loss of my long golden locks and the development of a pronounced stoop, among sundry other ailments, they have not as yet too badly eroded my memories. A good thing too as when as old as I they really are all one has left you know. Ah, memories....   

And so no I have not forgotten that this thread concerning class and national consciousness in the fair city of Cardiff has included several and various references to sporting activities including the secular religion of Wales Rugby Football. In fact I believe that of these remarks not a few, both serious and not so serious perhaps, have vomited forth from this machine I sit at while gazing upon the neighbouring Rugby Club that I see in the near distance.

None of which changes my opinion that my attendence record at Rugby Football contests is of no concern to anyone but myself. Or is it your opinion that unless one has attended a gien humber of such matches that one is unentitled to any sort of opinion on what is regarded as the national game?

As for the questions which I have put to you i reproduce them below. None are of great importnace but it would be interesting to know read your thoughts in answer to question 2 below in the context of your attempt to paint Rugby Football as a leisure activity which is both working class and national in character. Which by the way i do not dispute but do question when it is erected into a totem of tribal identity to which all muist subscribe on pain of expulsion from said tribe. Rather a primitive attitude I feel.

1/ Shirley genuine Welsh patriots should be training with the long bow in case of the need to wage a war of national liberation? Post 155

2/ Curious that you should mention that the followers of rugby are predominantly working class - none to hard in a country 90% working class I should imagine - but what of those who control the game?

3/ Why must I have any interest in sport anyhow? Has a law been passed making it compulsory? Is your sense of national identity so weak that those who do not share your leisure interests are to be cast out? Post 168


----------



## editor (Dec 31, 2005)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> 1/ Shirley genuine Welsh patriots should be training with the long bow in case of the need to wage a war of national liberation?


Stupid, irrelevant question not worthy of a reply.



			
				neprimerimye said:
			
		

> 2/ Curious that you should mention that the followers of rugby are predominantly working class - none to hard in a country 90% working class I should imagine - but what of those who control the game?


 1. 90% of the Welsh population do not class themselves as working class. You are talking bollocks
2. The vast majority of rugby players are amateurs so they are not being 'controlled' by anyone. They play for the pleasure, the pride and the fun of the sport, something you appear to have no understanding of.
3. I've no idea of the class background of the WRU. If you're suggesting that they're all upper/middle class, could you produce some sources please?



			
				neprimerimye said:
			
		

> 3/ Why must I have any interest in sport anyhow? Has a law been passed making it compulsory?


You've been talking about sport throughout this debate - being quick to sneer and dismiss both players and supporters - so it's reasonable to ask what you're basing this on, if not your personal prejudice. 

And, of course,  rugby plays a significant part in modern Welsh identity.

Now, any chance of giving a straight answer to my question or do you intend to wriggle on longer?


----------



## LilMissHissyFit (Dec 31, 2005)

You know the idiotic responses on this thread have given me a giggle
well done to the rest of you for trying to reason with this tosser.
Of course having lived west of Cardiff and now north I guess I shouldnt be able to understand the issues on this thread and you should now all point and laugh at me


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 31, 2005)

editor - polish that tempting ban button!


----------



## neprimerimye (Dec 31, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> 1. 90% of the Welsh population do not class themselves as working class. You are talking bollocks
> 2. The vast majority of rugby players are amateurs so they are not being 'controlled' by anyone. They play for the pleasure, the pride and the fun of the sport, something you appear to have no understanding of.
> 3. I've no idea of the class background of the WRU? If you're suggesting that they're all upper/middle class, could you produce some sources please?
> You've been talking about sport throughout this debate - being quick to sneer and dismiss both players and supporters - so it's reasonable to ask what you're basing this on, if not your personal prejudice.
> ...



1. That 90% of the population of Wales are not possessed of even a minimal level of class consciousness does not disprove their objective class identity. If a majority of the population of Wales is not working class pray tell what it's class nature is?

2. Indeed the majority of players do not receive payments for their efforts. But their clubs are sponsored by local businesses and the leagues they play in are similarly sponsored. All of which would tend to suggest that it is such business people who actually control the game rather than the players and supporters themselves.

3. Come now I asked you first! What i can say is that the WRU is not elected by the players and supporters.

Now to close you claim that I have sneered and dismissed the players and supporters of Rugby football. But I have written that 'for the most part they are decent types' in relation to those same supporters have I not? And the suggestion that I am prejudiced against the followers of Rugby is a nonsense given that I am an egalitarian and dislike most people most of the time and hold no special dislike of Rugby supporters.

And no I still refuse to answer your question as it is none of your concenr and not germane to this thread what I do in my leisure hours.


----------



## editor (Dec 31, 2005)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> 1. That 90% of the population of Wales are not possessed of even a minimal level of class consciousness does not disprove their objective class identity.


Deluded bollocks of the highest order.



			
				neprimerimye said:
			
		

> 2. Indeed the majority of players do not receive payments for their efforts. But their clubs are sponsored by local businesses and the leagues they play in are similarly sponsored. All of which would tend to suggest that it is such business people who actually control the game rather than the players and supporters themselves..


Utter bollocks. Again.


----------



## neprimerimye (Dec 31, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> Deluded bollocks of the highest order.
> Utter bollocks. Again.



What a good argument a veritable triumph of reasoning.

Now just to be fair I just took a look at the WRU web page in the hope of finding a list of it's members and how they came to be on that important body. Well I could not find any mention of the members of the WRU, it's constitution or anything of that sort. But what I did discover was advertisments for the companies which sponsor the WRU as well as advertisments for hospitality packages for corporate beanos. Strikes me that the WRU is very much driven by money if it's site is a guide to it's concerns.

Btw in your previous post you accused me of not understanding that "They play for the pleasure, the pride and the fun of the sport, something you appear to have no understanding of." None of which is any concern of this thread of course. I'm happy to acknowledge that the players and followers of sport are, to some degree, motivated by a positive aesthetic engagement with their given sporting activity. CLR James makes much of this in his Beyond A Boundery which discusses cricket I note. But he also discusses how a game of the slave owners became a game of the former slaves and was transformed by them. In short he does not abstract cricket from the social relations in which it is situated as I would suggest you do in relation to Rugby Football.

Again if 90% of the population of this country are not workering class what are they? Capitalists perhaps? Peasants? Nomads?


----------



## editor (Dec 31, 2005)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> Again if 90% of the population of this country are not workering class what are they? Capitalists perhaps? Peasants? Nomads?


*You* made the assertion that the population of Wales was 90% working class, so it's up to you to prove that.

Can you do that? 

Or is just another of your fact-free, research-untroubled proclamations, just like your WRU claim?






			
				neprimerimye said:
			
		

> I'm happy to acknowledge that the players and followers of sport are, to some degree, motivated by a positive aesthetic engagement with their given sporting activity.


What kind of middle class twaddle is this?


----------



## lewislewis (Dec 31, 2005)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> Oh how I wish I was ignorant of rugby football!
> 
> As for the so called ignorant stereotypes why do you object to my describing rugby fans as 'mostly decent types'?
> 
> As for rugby not being commercially driven if that is so then it is unique among major sports. Face facts the international and major teams are bought and paid for by TV and clothing companies. Without sponsorship and so forth the players would not ven look at the game. As for the minor clubs and players they too are sponsored by commercial interests to a considerable extent. Even the 'pure amateurs' wear clothing and boots from the major companies and are in one way or antoher supported by them.



Then do you suggest that amateur players should manufacture their own clothing and boots?!

*Neprimerimye suffers from an inability to reconcile Marxism with reality. * 

This is why far-left parties have never gained significant support in the world, despite the validity of *some* of their ideas.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 31, 2005)

lewislewis said:
			
		

> *Neprimerimye suffers from an inability to reconcile Marxism with reality. *
> 
> This is why far-left parties have never gained significant support in the world, despite the validity of *some* of their ideas.


what, purely because of neprimerimye? 

incidentally, can you name a strand of political thought whose ideas are, iyo, all valid?


----------



## lewislewis (Dec 31, 2005)

Pickman's model said:
			
		

> what, purely because of neprimerimye?
> 
> incidentally, can you name a strand of political thought whose ideas are, iyo, all valid?



I can't name one to be honest, which is why I draw my ideas from a variety of 'strands of political thought'  

Isn't it true though that Neprimermiye's opinions as repeatedly expressed on this forum, are at odds with political reality (no matter how wrong that reality may be)?


----------



## phildwyer (Dec 31, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> 1. 90% of the Welsh population do not class themselves as working class.



I'm not so sure about that, and even if they don't, they are.  I reckon its a fair point about the rugby culture, which I've never liked much (although I enjoy the game), and about its links to the S. Wales establishment in its various forms.  Consider, for example, the relative coverage give to rugby and football in the Eggo.


----------



## phildwyer (Dec 31, 2005)

pk said:
			
		

> Is mental illness some kind of SWP badge of honour?
> 
> Forget commitment, have the poor sod sectioned... for feck's sake.
> 
> ...



Mock all you like, but the SWP (of which I've never been a member) has contributed a lot to installing, or maintaining, a degree of radicalism among the people of South Wales that is unparalleled anywhere in England.


----------



## phildwyer (Dec 31, 2005)

lewislewis said:
			
		

> Isn't it true though that Neprimermiye's opinions as repeatedly expressed on this forum, are at odds with political reality (no matter how wrong that reality may be)?



If political reality is 'wrong,' logically it would be *right* to hold opinions that are at odds with it.  Obviously.


----------



## phildwyer (Dec 31, 2005)

lewislewis said:
			
		

> *Neprimerimye suffers from an inability to reconcile Marxism with reality. *



That is because Marxism is a philosophy that seeks to *change* reality, and which holds that reality is *false,* or as you put it elsewhere, 'wrong.'


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 31, 2005)

phildwyer said:
			
		

> That is because Marxism is a philosophy that seeks to *change* reality, and which holds that reality is *false,* or as you put it elsewhere, 'wrong.'


did you ever prove that god exists?


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 31, 2005)

phildwyer said:
			
		

> Mock all you like, but the SWP (of which I've never been a member) has contributed a lot to installing, or maintaining, a degree of radicalism among the people of South Wales that is unparalleled anywhere in England.


----------



## editor (Dec 31, 2005)

phildwyer said:
			
		

> I'm not so sure about that, and even if they don't, they are..


Right. So you _know_ better than the good folks of Wales, even if they don't think of themselves as working class, eh?

As for the 'rugby culture' what about the hundreds of amateurs/school teams/pub teams playing all over Wales? 

So which non working class types are supposed to be 'controlling' them, then - and how, exactly?


----------



## phildwyer (Dec 31, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> Right. So you _know_ better than the good folks of Wales, even if they don't think of themselves as working class, eh?



Anyone who sells their labour-power for wages is a proletarian.  Thus not 90% but 99% of the population of Wales are proletarian.  'Working-class' is admittedly a more subjective term.


----------



## editor (Dec 31, 2005)

phildwyer said:
			
		

> Anyone who sells their labour-power for wages is a proletarian.  Thus not 90% but 99% of the population of Wales are proletarian.  'Working-class' is admittedly a more subjective term.


99% of the Welsh population, eh?

Must be an awful lot of born babies, schoolkids, the retired, the housebound, those in higher education and the unemployed managing to fit in jobs somewhere!

Both objectively and subjectively, a 99% figure is total bollocks, as is 90%.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 31, 2005)

why?


----------



## editor (Dec 31, 2005)

Pickman's model said:
			
		

> why?


Because it is.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 31, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> Because it is.


ok...


----------



## editor (Dec 31, 2005)

Pickman's model said:
			
		

> ok...


Why not do some research and find out?


----------



## phildwyer (Dec 31, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> So which non working class types are supposed to be 'controlling' them, then - and how, exactly?



I never said anyone was 'controlling' them.  But egg-chasing was indeed introduced to the Valleys by the public-school educated sons of English coal owners.  Perhaps with the intention of providing an apolitical outlet for the considerable energies of their workers.


----------



## phildwyer (Dec 31, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> 99% of the Welsh population, eh?
> 
> Must be an awful lot of born babies, schoolkids, the retired, the housebound, those in higher education and the unemployed managing to fit in jobs somewhere!
> 
> Both objectively and subjectively, a 99% figure is total bollocks, as is 90%.



Obviously I meant 99% of the adult population of working age are proles, maybe not 'working class.'  But what do you think is the percentage of working class in Wales?  In the Valleys it must be 90%, and not far off that in Cardiff, Barry and Newport.  Less in the Vale, and in the north and west you have agricultural communities, where the class division is different.  But overall I'd say 80% was about right.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 31, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> Why not do some research and find out?


it doesn't matter too greatly to me, but i doubt you've heard the last of it.


----------



## phildwyer (Dec 31, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> As for the 'rugby culture' what about the hundreds of amateurs/school teams/pub teams playing all over Wales?



Well, you know perfectly well the atmosphere they generate.  What adjectives spring to mind?


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 31, 2005)

phildwyer said:
			
		

> Well, you know perfectly well the atmosphere they generate.  What adjectives spring to mind?


character-building.


----------



## editor (Dec 31, 2005)

phildwyer said:
			
		

> Obviously I meant 99% of the adult population of working age are proles, maybe not 'working class.'  But what do you think is the percentage of working class in Wales?  In the Valleys it must be 90%, and not far off that in Cardiff, Barry and Newport.  Less in the Vale, and in the north and west you have agricultural communities, where the class division is different.  But overall I'd say 80% was about right.


So you're now backtracking from 99% of the population of Wales down to 80% of those in employment, yes?

FYI, the Economic and Research Council’s Research Programme on Devolution and Constitutional Change's 2003 study came up with these figures:





> Objective Working Class (Other manual workers) and subjective class identity, %
> 
> Objective Working Class (Other Manual Workers)
> 29.4% (11.9)
> ...


----------



## editor (Dec 31, 2005)

phildwyer said:
			
		

> Well, you know perfectly well the atmosphere they generate.  What adjectives spring to mind?


At amateur rugby matches? Generally pretty sporting, I'd say.

Heck, I didn't really enjoy the traditional Christmas Cardiff v Ponty rugby game a few years back because I found the atmosphere too _polite_ for my tastes.

What point are you trying to make here, btw?


----------



## lewislewis (Dec 31, 2005)

phildwyer said:
			
		

> That is because Marxism is a philosophy that seeks to *change* reality, and which holds that reality is *false,* or as you put it elsewhere, 'wrong.'



I see...that's fair enough then. When reality changes, i'll vote for you, as long as we are still allowed to play rugby and football.


----------



## editor (Dec 31, 2005)

Pickman's model said:
			
		

> character-building.


Ever been to a rugby game in Wales?


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 31, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> Ever been to a rugby game in Wales?


character-building's an adjective i'd associate with rugby, regardless of where it's play'd.


----------



## lewislewis (Dec 31, 2005)

phildwyer said:
			
		

> Mock all you like, but the SWP (of which I've never been a member) has contributed a lot to installing, or maintaining, a degree of radicalism among the people of South Wales that is unparalleled anywhere in England.



Are you being serious or not?


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 31, 2005)

lewislewis said:
			
		

> Are you being serious or not?


he's a plonker's plonker, ll.


----------



## editor (Dec 31, 2005)

phildwyer said:
			
		

> But egg-chasing was indeed introduced to the Valleys by the public-school educated sons of English coal owners.


Have you a source for that please or is that just something you heard in the pub?

For your information, Neath, the first Welsh club, was formed by a *Scotsman*, Dr T P Whittington who also became the first international coming from a Welsh club when he played for Scotland in 1873.

In fact, some claim that the game originated in Wales in the first place!


> Many believe that rugby was born in 1823 when William Webb Ellis "with fine disregard for the rules of football (soccer) as played in his time, first took the ball in his arms and ran with it, thus originating the distinctive feature of the Rugby game". Although it is worth pointing out that this is apocryphal as there is little in the way of evidence to substantiate this view, it is however, the popular view. So much so in fact that the international committee named the Rugby world cup the "William Webb Ellis Trophy".
> 
> Webb Ellis' father was stationed in Ireland with the Dragoons, where, it is said, he would have witnessed the native game of Caid (Cad), could he have passed this on to his son? All branches of the Celtic race played Caid. There were two basic forms, Cross-country cad and field cad. The word 'Caid' means scrotum of the bull.
> 
> ...


----------



## editor (Dec 31, 2005)

Pickman's model said:
			
		

> character-building's an adjective i'd associate with rugby, regardless of where it's play'd.


That wasn't what I asked.

Oh well....


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 31, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> That wasn't what I asked.
> 
> Oh well....


no.


----------



## editor (Dec 31, 2005)

Pickman's model said:
			
		

> no.


Are you suffering Compulsive Posting Disorder again?


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 31, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> Are you suffering Compulsive Posting Disorder again?


no, i was agreeing with you.


----------



## neprimerimye (Dec 31, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> FYI, the Economic and Research Council’s Research Programme on Devolution and Constitutional Change's 2003 study came up with these figures:
> Objective Working Class (Other manual workers) and subjective class identity, %
> 
> Objective Working Class (Other Manual Workers) 29.4% (11.9)
> ...



These are interesting figures. But they do not contradict the expressed views of PD or myselr. In fact they go some considerable way to proving our assertions.

We are told that 29.4% of the labour force is involved in manual work. What we are not informed of is the number of white collar workers, hospital workers and retail workers. If we were to add those workers to our manual workers, themselves a declining % of the labour force, we would actually reach have a ball park figure of some 80-90%. This is indeed suggested by the subjective working class figure of 69.9% I note. But even if we only take this lowest avaiable figure we have here in Wales a working class that is an absolute majority of the population.

Btw the same document that you took these figures from has some vey curious figures on perceived national identity in Wales which are far closer to the original content of this thread than anything about Rugby might be.


----------



## phildwyer (Dec 31, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> Have you a source for that please or is that just something you heard in the pub?
> 
> For your information, Neath, the first Welsh club, was formed by a *Scotsman*, Dr T P Whittington who also became the first international coming from a Welsh club when he played for Scotland in 1873.
> 
> In fact, some claim that the game originated in Wales in the first place!



It seems to me Quixotic to argue that the game of *rugby* is not in origin an English public school sport.  And, some would say, in essence too, as suggested by Pickman's ludicrous suggestion that it is 'character building.'


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 31, 2005)

phildwyer said:
			
		

> It seems to me Quixotic to argue that the game of *rugby* is not in origin an English public school sport.  And, some would say, in essence too, as suggested by Pickman's ludicrous suggestion that it is 'character building.'


it IS character-building! 

and did you ever demonstrate to anyone else's satisfaction the existence of god?


----------



## phildwyer (Dec 31, 2005)

Pickman's model said:
			
		

> it IS character-building!



How is it fucking 'character-building,' you nutter?


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 31, 2005)

phildwyer said:
			
		

> How is it fucking 'character-building,' you nutter?


it teaches people team-building, breaking through the pain barrier, discipline and punishes the overly-aggressive.


----------



## editor (Dec 31, 2005)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> These are interesting figures. But they do not contradict the expressed views of PD or myselr. In fact they go some considerable way to proving our assertions.


Can you find a credible source that supports your 90% figure or not, please?


----------



## phildwyer (Dec 31, 2005)

Pickman's model said:
			
		

> it teaches people team-building, breaking through the pain barrier, discipline and punishes the overly-aggressive.



Top hole, Pickman's old chap!  That's how we like to see the workers, eh: disciplined and not overly aggressive.  Mens sana in coprore sano, eh what?  Twat.


----------



## editor (Dec 31, 2005)

phildwyer said:
			
		

> It seems to me Quixotic to argue that the game of *rugby* is not in origin an English public school sport.


You unequivocally claimed that rugby was "introduced to the Valleys by the public-school educated sons of English coal owners."

Can you support this assertion, please?


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 31, 2005)

phildwyer said:
			
		

> Mens sana in coprore sano, eh what?  Twat.


you seem to be forgetting that it's a publick school game originally...


----------



## neprimerimye (Dec 31, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> In fact, some claim that the game originated in Wales in the first place!
> 
> Many believe that rugby was born in 1823 when William Webb Ellis "with fine disregard for the rules of football (soccer) as played in his time, first took the ball in his arms and ran with it, thus originating the distinctive feature of the Rugby game". Although it is worth pointing out that this is apocryphal as there is little in the way of evidence to substantiate this view, it is however, the popular view. So much so in fact that the international committee named the Rugby world cup the "William Webb Ellis Trophy".
> 
> ...



All of which is not uninteresting. But it does not disprove the fact that the rules were codified from the game as played at Rugby school. Your post also proves that Rugby did not originate in Wales if read closely as it states that the game from which it evoplved was played from Ireland to France and opredates the existence of Wales.

I can at this point confirm that I have been to a rugby game in Wales and that it was character building.

I can also confirm that my political opinions are at odds with political reality. Which is the point of having opppositional views I would imagine. Y'know the wotsit thesis on Ludwig F and the point is to change it and stuff like. No maybe you don't know. Nevermind.

Anyhow this thread has drifted a long ways away from Cardiff so to speak and theres things to do so this is my last in the thread.

My best wishes to all rugby fans for the new year and I hope your teams win all the prizes.


----------



## editor (Dec 31, 2005)

phildwyer said:
			
		

> Top hole, Pickman's old chap!  That's how we like to see the workers, eh: disciplined and not overly aggressive.


Apart from the fact that 'the workers' weren't generally forced to take part in rugby games and generally did it because they enjoyed it, what entertainment would you have preferred hard working miners get involved with?

Sewing?


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 31, 2005)

phildwyer said:
			
		

> Mens sana in coprore sano


& in english? twat.


----------



## editor (Dec 31, 2005)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> Your post also proves that Rugby did not originate in Wales if read closely as it states that the game from which it evoplved was played from Ireland to France and opredates the existence of Wales.


It doesn't, actually.


----------



## nwnm (Jan 1, 2006)

unfortunately this thread seems to be deteriorating rapidly - which is a bit of a shame.

Judging by the figures quoted by editor i think most people would agree that the majority of the population of Wales are working class (which is not to say that there isn't a ruling class alive and well in Wales) 

I don't give a monkeys who invented rugby, but enjoy watching it. (except for that 'orrible league game   )

I also enjoy a pint of guinness but have nothing but contempt for the past fascist leanings of the family who put their names to the product. 

RubberBuccaneer  asked earlier "Can we have a quick roll call as to what everyones politics are?" The only person to have done that so far is phildwyer. I'm not sure how it would pan out in this discussion in terms of colouring others opinions before you read their posts, (There is also a thread somewhere, where people try and second guess who's in what).

Of those posting on here, these are my suppositions (based on other threads) - 
ben bore - cymdeithas yr iaith gymraeg
lewislewis - plaid cymru supporter
niclas - cymru Goch
nwnm - socialist workers party and also of course  respect
pickman's model - class war federation
phildwyer - unaffiliated socialist (although I have my suspicions as your initials are the same as someone I know - as is your prose style)
Others, if interested, can make their own additions/corrections. Personally I find that this sort of thing can get inward looking and completely derail threads. I've never been a fan of train spotting


----------



## Karac (Jan 1, 2006)

phildwyer said:
			
		

> Mock all you like, but the SWP (of which I've never been a member) has contributed a lot to installing, or maintaining, a degree of radicalism among the people of South Wales that is unparalleled anywhere in England.


That statement made me laugh out loud.


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## neprimerimye (Jan 1, 2006)

nwnm said:
			
		

> Of those posting on here, these are my suppositions (based on other threads) -
> ben bore - cymdeithas yr iaith gymraeg
> lewislewis - plaid cymru supporter
> niclas - cymru Goch
> ...



Aw c'mon! You always used to be a most avid trainspotter. Untill Chilango and ARR convinced you that there was a Maoist-Sergeite group which you then searched every demo looking for until told that they made it up.

If your thinking of the pd I think you are then phildwyer is not he for certain.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 1, 2006)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> If your thinking of the pd I think you are then phildwyer is not he for certain.



No I am not, nor am I any other person with those initials.


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## neprimerimye (Jan 1, 2006)

phildwyer said:
			
		

> No I am not, nor am I any other person with those initials.



This use of pseudonyms is terrifically confusing innit Derek.


----------



## editor (Jan 1, 2006)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> This use of pseudonyms is terrifically confusing innit Derek.


Who's Derek?


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 1, 2006)

editor said:
			
		

> Who's Derek?



Not me.  I *have* figured out who Nep is though.


----------



## editor (Jan 1, 2006)

phildwyer said:
			
		

> Not me.  I *have* figured out who Nep is though.


Unlike neprimerimye, I'm sure you'll have the courtesy to keep people's real names off the boards.

neprimerimye - please read the FAQ on this.


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## lewislewis (Jan 1, 2006)

nwnm said:
			
		

> unfortunately this thread seems to be deteriorating rapidly - which is a bit of a shame.
> 
> Judging by the figures quoted by editor i think most people would agree that the majority of the population of Wales are working class (which is not to say that there isn't a ruling class alive and well in Wales)
> 
> ...



What great fun. Yes I am a member of Plaid Cymru. I was previously (4 years ago) a member of a certain far-left organisation which I won't name on here. Then puberty happened and I joined Plaid.

Anyone who has ever posted on UK Left Network *shudders* will know the legend that is Neprimerimye


----------



## neprimerimye (Jan 1, 2006)

phildwyer said:
			
		

> Not me.  I *have* figured out who Nep is though.



Me too! It's me! And I'm a legend too it seems. A veritable mythological beastie.   

Mind how hard could it have been when you first met me thirty years ago and you had a lot of info to work with. And if you checked my Urban posts I gave a link somewhere to an article I co-authored. Plus on the politics board my old chum Barry calls me by my first name.


----------



## neprimerimye (Jan 1, 2006)

editor said:
			
		

> Unlike neprimerimye, I'm sure you'll have the courtesy to keep people's real names off the boards.



Actually I've not used anybody real name. There is no 'Derek' afaik. And references to 'PD' were veiled.

A real name was given in this thread but not by me. I note that this person was then slurred, along with the organisation he belongs to, by making reference to his alleged mental health problems. Which it seems doesn't bother so your concern for courtesy seems ill aimed at best. Nor were you concerned about the discriminatory behaviour in reference to people perceived as having mental health problems which this incident represents.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 1, 2006)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> Me too! It's me! And I'm a legend too it seems. A veritable mythological beastie.
> 
> Mind how hard could it have been when you first met me thirty years ago and you had a lot of info to work with. And if you checked my Urban posts I gave a link somewhere to an article I co-authored. Plus on the politics board my old chum Barry calls me by my first name.



I didn't check your Urban posts, but the number of people who know our mutual friends, yet don't know Taffy, yet know the Clive and the Royal, *and* are interested in far Left politics is pretty limited.  I didn't meet you thirty years ago either, more like twenty, and not very often--you may not even remember me, I'm a bit younger then you and probably seemed an insignificant squirt.  I knew your brothers better.


----------



## editor (Jan 1, 2006)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> Actually I've not used anybody real name. There is no 'Derek' afaik.


Then what the fuck are you on about?


----------



## lewislewis (Jan 2, 2006)

It was Tony Cliff, in the parlour with the rolling pin.


----------



## neprimerimye (Jan 2, 2006)

phildwyer said:
			
		

> I didn't meet you thirty years ago either, more like twenty, and not very often--you may not even remember me, I'm a bit younger then you and probably seemed an insignificant squirt.  I knew your brothers better.



You knew my brothers? Not seen them for a while I'll bet. Nor have I come to that. Mind they are both dead.


----------



## neprimerimye (Jan 2, 2006)

lewislewis said:
			
		

> It was Tony Cliff, in the parlour with the rolling pin.



You mean Ygael Glickstein surly?


----------



## lewislewis (Jan 2, 2006)

Slip of the tongue.

Ygael is quite a cool name.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 2, 2006)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> You knew my brothers? Not seen them for a while I'll bet. Nor have I come to that. Mind they are both dead.



Shit man, really?  I'm so sorry.  I knew about Dai, from long ago, but not Phil.  Really sorry, they were both top blokes.


----------



## neprimerimye (Jan 2, 2006)

phildwyer said:
			
		

> Shit man, really?  I'm so sorry.  I knew about Dai, from long ago, but not Phil.  Really sorry, they were both top blokes.



Minutes after posting that I realised just how utterly tasteless it actually is. Cruel and heartless even. But did it occur to me to delete it? Well of course it did but I thought it would be more fun to confirm the view that I'm a sick puppy.

Anyhow Phil is still technically alive. He is kept alive artificially by a machine which circulates beer around his body at regular intervals. Sadly however he has been pronounced brain dead by eminent doctors. Although a minoriity opinion has it that brain death is typical of anybody living in Barry.

And if anybody thinks my sense of humour sick they are probably right. Sorry if I upset Phildwyer mind. Apologies and all that. I owe you a pint.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 2, 2006)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> Anyhow Phil is still technically alive. He is kept alive artificially by a machine which circulates beer around his body at regular intervals. Sadly however he has been pronounced brain dead by eminent doctors. Although a minoriity opinion has it that brain death is typical of anybody living in Barry.



Oh my God, Phil lives in *Barry?*  That's truly terrible, please accept my deepest sympathies.  May the Good Lord have mercy on his soul.


----------



## Funki mamma (Jan 13, 2006)

.....err, anyway I thought Merthyr Tydfil was the original capital of Wales...before Cardiff


----------



## editor (Jan 13, 2006)

Funki mamma said:
			
		

> .....err, anyway I thought Merthyr Tydfil was the original capital of Wales...before Cardiff


It was the major town by a long chalk, but it was never the official capital.


----------



## chilango (Jan 13, 2006)

Didn`t they chicken out of making Merthyr capital cos of its radical reputation?


----------



## Belushi (Jan 13, 2006)

Can you imagine Merthyr as the Capital?


----------



## Funki mamma (Jan 13, 2006)

I remember people down my way used to call people from Cardiff the Welsh Cockneys?


----------



## nwnm (Jan 13, 2006)

"I remember people down my way used to call people from Cardiff the Welsh Cockneys?" Well.... we did have a few Pearl street kings and queens


----------



## Funki mamma (Jan 14, 2006)

Its funny though, me being such an old cynic an' all.  I was soo glad to leave Wales back in the day.  Been more then 20 years since I left.......

but I still called my youngest Taliesin.......


----------



## nwnm (Jan 15, 2006)

god. its bad enough leaving Cardiff - but Wales as a whole


----------



## Funki mamma (Jan 16, 2006)

...too many rednex..twas 1978 and they didnt get punk.  So lots of us left and set up home in Brixton or Amsterdamn.  It was safer.


----------



## nwnm (Jan 17, 2006)

but there was a fairly healthy Punk scene in Cardiff by '78 (admittedly it was pretty crap in 77)


----------



## Funki mamma (Jan 17, 2006)

I know... but alas Im a Swansea grrl.  We were banned from every pub in town, there were only about five of us and people had a very violent reaction towards us.  Things got a bit better, we used to do a paper called Alarm, exposing corruption in the local council.  So that kind of endeared us a bit with the locals.  Still wouldn't venture into town on a weekend though, the random violence was shocking.  Apparently still is.  I felt safer in Brixton then.  Welsh people are a recognised ethnic minority in Lambeth (on council forms) coz so many of us came here.


----------



## RubberBuccaneer (Jan 17, 2006)

Funki mamma said:
			
		

> I know... but alas Im a Swansea grrl.  We were banned from every pub in town, there were only about five of us and people had a very violent reaction towards us.  Things got a bit better, we used to do a paper called Alarm, exposing corruption in the local council.  So that kind of endeared us a bit with the locals.  Still wouldn't venture into town on a weekend though, the random violence was shocking.  Apparently still is.  I felt safer in Brixton then.  Welsh people are a recognised ethnic minority in Lambeth (on council forms) coz so many of us came here.



Was that related to early Class War?
I saw the Black Sheep paper from Swansea but I'm guessing you were gone by then.


----------



## chilango (Jan 17, 2006)

Funki mamma said:
			
		

> I know... but alas Im a Swansea grrl.  We were banned from every pub in town, there were only about five of us and people had a very violent reaction towards us.  Things got a bit better, we used to do a paper called Alarm, exposing corruption in the local council.  So that kind of endeared us a bit with the locals.  Still wouldn't venture into town on a weekend though, the random violence was shocking.  Apparently still is.  I felt safer in Brixton then.  Welsh people are a recognised ethnic minority in Lambeth (on council forms) coz so many of us came here.



ooh!  . I liked _Alarm_, somehow we got hold of a couple of v old copies in the mid 90s and passed em around the local anarchos. Good stuff. Rhys Mwyn on "Roc Cymraeg". Plus an article on Cardiff´s contibution to the riots of ´81.


----------



## nwnm (Jan 17, 2006)

erm I was involved in Cardiffs contribution to the riots of '81 got any photocopies?


----------



## Funki mamma (Jan 17, 2006)

Alarm was brilliant, only 2p a copy,out on a Saturday.  Representing the views of local people.  Done in a fanzine stylee didnt take itself too seriouly yet covered some big issues of the time '76 - 80'.  Panorama BBC did a feature on the corruption in Swansea council at that time, twas quite big news.


----------



## Funki mamma (Jan 17, 2006)

RubberBuccaneer said:
			
		

> Was that related to early Class War?
> I saw the Black Sheep paper from Swansea but I'm guessing you were gone by then.


Spot on  Was directly related.


----------



## RubberBuccaneer (Jan 18, 2006)

Funki mamma said:
			
		

> Spot on  Was directly related.



That's got to be worth a thread???

Wales/Anarchism/biggest paper since Freedom - what's not to like?  

I read that one of the founders flirted a bit with Welsh nationalism even translating his name into ......ap....... Of course by now his name escapes me.


----------



## RubberBuccaneer (Jan 18, 2006)

nwnm said:
			
		

> erm I was involved in Cardiffs contribution to the riots of '81 got any photocopies?



Can you expand on this a bit, would have been around at the time and don't remember any major disturbances in Cardiff ( although when UK was going up, I was told a coachload of rightwingers were stopped at the bridge and told to go back - probably rumour ).


----------



## Funki mamma (Jan 18, 2006)

Class War came from the very same people that produced Alarm in Swansea.  By 84 we were meeting in a dodgey pub at the back of Kings Cross, there started the very paper.  Without sounding like an anarchist version of 'friends reunited', I would love to know the whereabouts of the original CW crew.  Some I know have died,if anyone has any news/info let me know, Class (War) of 84 where are you all now?


----------



## niclas (Jan 18, 2006)

RubberBuccaneer said:
			
		

> That's got to be worth a thread???
> 
> Wales/Anarchism/biggest paper since Freedom - what's not to like?
> 
> I read that one of the founders flirted a bit with Welsh nationalism even translating his name into ......ap....... Of course by now his name escapes me.




All my yesterdays... Ian Bone briefly became Ieuan ab Asgwrn. Crazy name, crazy guy but having a Welsh names don't make you a nationalist  

 I first met him in the Cape Horner pub, Swansea, at a Welsh Socialist Republican Movement do. He was selling "I slept with Lady Diana" badges - so it must have been 1980-1 - and was producing an anarcho fanzine called Fuck Off that was a kind of forerunner to Class War. It was witty and slagged off the SWP with headlines like "Bombs not Jobs" and "Fight for the right to wank". Bone was also in an anarcho-republican band called Living Legends (I had to Google to remember that one!) and briefly found notoriety.

Bone created Alarm which exposed Gerald Murphy and the other Taffia mis-ruling Swansea council way in the early or mid 70s before Paddy French and Rebecca got hold of the story. Sounds like the paper was a genuine community effort and the group stood for council, getting a good vote but no-one elected. 26% sticks in my memory but I have nothing to back that up. But maybe that's where the anarchism and community activism came a bit unstuck.

When the WSRM got shut down by the state in 1982 - police raids, conspiracy trial, etc - its internal divisions became more pronounced. Some ex-WSRM anarchists started up The Scorcher, continuing a brief flirtation with Meibion Glyndwr and armed resistance. It didn't last long.  

Bone went to London and started up Class War. He ended up in Bristol and set up The Bristolian, which seems to have done exactly what Alarm did and exposed council corruption etc. It also stood candidates in the last council elections... deja vu anyone.

Last I heard he was trying to set up an investigative paper called Taffy Times but I don't think anything came of it.

Talented bloke but some of the people close to him seemed to be hellbent on drawing the state's attention to the WSRM. They succeeded and moved on - nuff said.


----------



## nwnm (Jan 19, 2006)

"Can you expand on this a bit, would have been around at the time and don't remember any major disturbances in Cardiff ( although when UK was going up, I was told a coachload of rightwingers were stopped at the bridge and told to go back - probably rumour )."

That 'rumour' brought small groups of mixed (ethnically) Kids onto the streets in Splott, Adamsdown and the Docks and led to minor skirmishes with the police and a couple of cars overturned (1980)  There was also rioting (1980) when both the NF and the Troops out Movement had demonstrations on the same day in Cardiff. There were two 'solidarity' riots with the 1981 inner city riots in Brixton and Bristol. One in the town Centre which started near 'Grass Roots' involving mainly Punks Mods and Skins overturning cars and smashing shop windows (it was hard work trying to keep the skins in line as they wanted to kick the shit out of 'civilians' rather than bricking the police), and one down the Docks. (This was quite small scale but a couple of petrol bombs were thrown). More serious rioting down the docks in 1986 after over reaction by police (got covered by Socialist Worker - not long after Toxteth). 

Talking of Class War - does anyone remember 'Roland the Anarchist' Class War supporter who lived in Cardiff in the 80's. Infamous for his attempt to petrol bomb the Army Recruitment office (the petrol bomb bounced back off the window, rolled down the pavement and set fire to Roland's trowsers). Last seen working as a barman in the Queens Vaults in 1986


----------



## neprimerimye (Jan 19, 2006)

nwnm said:
			
		

> Talking of Class War - does anyone remember 'Roland the Anarchist' Class War supporter who lived in Cardiff in the 80's. Infamous for his attempt to petrol bomb the Army Recruitment office (the petrol bomb bounced back off the window, rolled down the pavement and set fire to Roland's trowsers). Last seen working as a barman in the Queens Vaults in 1986



Roland has lived in Swansea since the late 1980's and works in the media. When i last met him, some ten years ago now, through friends of media types I know he still claimed to be an anarcho. Our mutual friends pissed themselves when I outed him over the bombing incident!

At one point Roland, Ian Bone and the then drummer of the Living Legends - who Nwnm will know as my former housemate from Spencer St - shared a squat. The drummer would lock himself in his room when his turn to tidy came around on the house rota then take his washing home for his Mum to do!


----------



## Funki mamma (Jan 19, 2006)

I knew Bone well...yes a very charismatic bloke but kept some well dodgy company.  I remember the brothers Craven from Swansea, a pair of dangerous nutters he used to go drinking with, one of them ended up in Broadmore for murdering a Gypsy lad with a pavement slab.  One of Bones girlfriends used to recruit Welsh females to go to London to work for 'Madam Sin', the Madam Cynthia Payne.  Her clients loved the Welsh girls.....dirty old bastards.  Rumour has it that early issues of Class War was funded through the proceeds of prostitution...some kind of irony there...fucking the rich to produce CW.  Hmmm..a twisted form of anarcho-feminisim


----------



## UncleRoly (Jun 13, 2006)

nwnm said:
			
		

> "Talking of Class War - does anyone remember 'Roland the Anarchist' Class War supporter who lived in Cardiff in the 80's. Infamous for his attempt to petrol bomb the Army Recruitment office (the petrol bomb bounced back off the window, rolled down the pavement and set fire to Roland's trowsers). Last seen working as a barman in the Queens Vaults in 1986



Actually, another incident has got confused, that was when a target went "woof" and sent burning petrol back out under a door.  

The perp   still has fond memories of cycling over Blackweir to fire and cop sirens with his "inconspicuous" corduroys glowing like fag ends. Ye haw, another comedy classic. 

The bouncing bomb was caused by an ill judged attempt to underarm a molotov through an open upstairs window, for which I err... carried the can  and pleaded guilty to Criminal Damage to a window frame, (slap on wrist), rather than Conspiracy To Cause An Explosion, (throw away the key).

The logic, if you can call it that, was to attack economic conscription, rather than risk working-class grunt squaddies. 

Many saw it as playing up to the "worst stereotypes of the bomb throwing anarchist" and "dragging the peace movement into disrepute", but others have told me it contributed to their politicisation.

Oh... and a big boo  to the CND comrade who grassed me up.


----------



## llantwit (Jun 13, 2006)

What a fucking great thread! 
More! More!
I want to hear more about welsh anarchists in the 80s - fucking A!


----------



## RubberBuccaneer (Jun 13, 2006)

llantwit said:
			
		

> What a fucking great thread!
> More! More!
> I want to hear more about welsh anarchists in the 80s - fucking A!



I was trying to get some confirmation about the @'s in the 50's ( apparently thye blocked Duke St off on a regualr basis ), and googled cardiff anarchists and this came up a lot- a statement that is a classic
http://www.radical.org.uk/anarchism/


----------



## UncleRoly (Jun 13, 2006)

RubberBuccaneer said:
			
		

> I was trying to get some confirmation about the @'s in the 50's ( apparently thye blocked Duke St off on a regualr basis ), and googled cardiff anarchists and this came up a lot- a statement that is a classic
> http://www.radical.org.uk/anarchism/



Yup, I've still got a cassette somewhere of the discussions that led to this.
AFAIR, we made it in someone's front room in Market Road in Canton, and there was some intention to make a "proper" (pirate) radio program.

The fact that most of us were in the Direct Action Movement gives it an Anarcho-Syndicalist slant. I can still see JR's turn of phrase in parts, bless his memory.

It was then produced as a little booklet knocked out by a sympathetic printer in Adamsdown.

Note the references to "situationism".  
Argh! Ever heard the term "oxymoron"?


----------



## ddraig (Jun 14, 2006)

welcome UR! wicked tale
maybe you can teach some whippersnappers on ere how it's done 
gotta to get that tape online/mp3 if poss


----------



## llantwit (Jun 14, 2006)

I've read that before - when CAN got going a few years back I did a search for cardiff anarchists to see if there was anything about previous cardiff anarchos, and came up with this. Never heard of cardiff a's in the 50s though, RB.
How many of you were there around, back then, Roly? What happened to the group that wrote that? Did everyone just disperse? Was it a studenty thing, or local people getting together?
The present day Cardiff Anarchists got together out of disgust with the tepid nature of protest against the Afghan/Iraq war, and we had some success with various direct actions for a few years (a bit quieter atm, I think, but I haven't been along to meetings for ages). Not much of an organised labour stance, though, to the present group - more issue-based actions, gigs, and film showing, etc, and general post-Seattle anticap slant.


----------



## RubberBuccaneer (Jun 14, 2006)

That 50s thing was told to me by a Quaker who were very active in the pre 2nd generation CND group called the Cardiff Peace Committee ( the initial meeting in Grassroots of about 35 people voted for everyone to be on the committee rather than a few   ).

But he said the police got so fed up of trying to move them on a saturday that they just directed the traffic around them.


----------



## UncleRoly (Jun 14, 2006)

llantwit said:
			
		

> How many of you were there around, back then, Roly? What happened to the group that wrote that? Did everyone just disperse? Was it a studenty thing, or local people getting together?


It wasn't a _current_ studenty thing, though I think a fair few had been students in the late 60's/early 70's. 

Several were involved in the 108 Bookshop Co-operative in Salisbury Road. and several in the Claimants' Union, which was mostly a front for DAM, and how I got involved. 

I suppose there was a core of about up to 12 regulars that would show up to meetings, and then a periphery of sympathetic-but-busy; the stoned/lazy/burned-out and the punks who didn't believe in organisation 'cos that's not Aniky innit?'  A mass movement it wasn't.

We even had contact with an elderly Spanish Anarchist in Broadway, Adamsdown. This was a matter of pride, because he had actually _fought_ in the Civil War, and could put some of the CNT/FAI fetishists right. 

Later @s started Bara Wholefoods, again in Broadway, and were deeply involved in Cardiff Housing Co-operative. Some had been involved in Cardiff Radio Trust/CBC.

AFAIR, there _was_ an Anarchist Student Society at the Uni. in the mid. 80's and some of them came down to meetings. There were a fair few Animal Rights/Hunt Sabs, too, just to add a bit of creative tension for the leather jacket and DM wearers. "How can you call yourself an Anarchist, you... meat-eater, you?"

The arrival of Ian Bone certainly stirred things up, but was not universally greeted with enthusiasm by the "slow, hard slog" communitarian faction.
They resented the high profile "stuntism" and the attempts to build bridges with the Welsh Socialist Republican Movement. (No-one ever seems to remember "The Scorcher" magazine, which was the precursor to "Class War", and whose name referred to the Meibion Glyndwr holiday home burning campaign. Not a lot rembember the WSRM folks who spent 11 months on remand, either, but that's another story). 

Needless to say, for several of us the chance to p*ss people off and to join the Living Legends (Cardiff Branch) was too good to miss. Goodbye, dour DAM! Hello pro-situ stupidity! There was a certain unease between the different @ groupings, partly due to our tendency to get lifted.

There was hostility, too, from sections of the Housing Co-op who rather distrusted many of the Anarcho-punk squatters as  working-class and therefore potential rapists and wife-beaters. You really don't want to be associated with that, especially if the separatist-feminists are going to put you on trial for "verbal rape" by inserting a male (sic) envelope through the (letter) box of an all-Wimmin house. - Actual historical fact. I kid you not.

*Gratuitous aside*: I suppose, at this juncture, it is worth recording the Greatest Ever Stunt that  never happened: Michael Roberts, the tory MP for Cardiff North turned up his toes and forced a by-election. The LLs recorded a four-track tape called "Tory Funerals", which was due to be distributed by "The Cartel", a national indie syndicate fronted in Cardiff by a certain record shop. A member of the band was to change his name by deed poll to "Michael Roberts Living Legend" and stand in that by-election for the "More Dead Tories" party. Unfortunately the Western Mail caught onto this; pressure was applied, doors were closed, and the whole thing unravelled. Bugg*r.

History repeated itself years later when The Megaton Men, in a long shot, released a blue vinyl 7 inch cover of Iggy Pop's "I'm a conservative" for the '92 general election. The small run and lack of industry clout meant the pressing plant put back the manufacture again and again until two weeks before the big day. Just in time for a media embargo on anything remotely political. Learn the lesson: Timing is everything.
*Anorak note*: If you've got a copy of the single, check the contact address in Spencer Street. 

Snapping out of reminiscent old fart mode. Some Cardiff @s have chugged on, some moved away, and some joined the great collective in the sky. You _might_ know one: "the man or the woman sitting next to you". 

Anyway, things move on. There's no copyright on those ideas, and the main job of today's @s is to develop on the themes, put them on a web page; podcast or flier and get them out there.

As for the Living Legends, there's _always_ an angle.


----------



## llantwit (Jun 14, 2006)

Thanks Roly - it's good to read your stuff. 
All the best.


----------



## ddraig (Jun 14, 2006)

UncleRoly said:
			
		

> Anyway, things move on. There's no copyright on those ideas, and the main job of today's @s is to develop on the themes, put them on a web page; podcast or flier and get them out there.
> 
> As for the Living Legends, there's _always_ an angle.


if you need any help with this i can do a bit of web/print/photoshop stuff




			
				llantwit said:
			
		

> Thanks Roly - it's good to read your stuff.
> All the best.


 seconded


----------



## UncleRoly (Jun 14, 2006)

ddraig said:
			
		

> if you need any help with this i can do a bit of web/print/photoshop stuff
> 
> seconded



Thanks for the welcome  and the offer.

Sadly, I rarely have the mental space to develop any themes myself, but look forward to seeing stuff develop online in forum sites like this; blogs; etc.

Just off the top of my head:  
Is the future is less going to be a "post-scarcity" nirvana 
or a Mad max scrabble for declining resouces?

Those in Power, literally, want to centralise access to energy; water; information. What do we do to devolve alternatives?

Will people spot that Al Qaida is an imaginary bogeyman?

People are realising that posh knobs don't have 
a monopoly on intelligence or culture. 
The cult of celebrity is about elevating the ordinary. 
Organised religion being replaced by DIY mysticism.
Is all this encouraging?

Do @s evangelise political ideas; lead by doing; provoke folk into thinking for themselves, - or a bit of everything?

Loads of stuff to discuss.

I wonder what happened to CAM; WAF.


----------



## ddraig (Jun 14, 2006)

UncleRoly said:
			
		

> Thanks for the welcome  and the offer.
> 
> Sadly, I rarely have the mental space to develop any themes myself, but look forward to seeing stuff develop online in forum sites like this; blogs; etc.
> <snip>



no probs, what about this tape u mentioned? i presume u have a copy?
am sure between us on here we can get it 'digitised' and on line


----------



## King Biscuit Time (Jun 14, 2006)

Loving these 'Tales of old Cardiff'  

Sounds like someone needs to set up 'Anarchos Reunited'


----------



## Col_Buendia (Jun 14, 2006)

Uncle Roly, are you available for weddings, wakes and funerals?  I'm fascinated by the stories, we need to hear more!


----------



## ddraig (Jun 14, 2006)

Col_Buendia said:
			
		

> Uncle Roly, are you available for weddings, wakes and funerals?  I'm fascinated by the stories, we need to hear more!



get im down next month, to learn the new breed


----------



## Dic Penderyn (Jun 14, 2006)

llantwit said:
			
		

> Not much of an organised labour stance, though, to the present group - more issue-based actions, gigs, and film showing, etc, and general post-Seattle anticap slant.



theres Gagged too....


----------



## UncleRoly (Jun 14, 2006)

King Biscuit Time said:
			
		

> Sounds like someone needs to set up 'Anarchos Reunited'


You couldn't afford the Sanatogen. 




			
				Col_Buendia said:
			
		

> Uncle Roly, are you available for ... funerals?


Only my own, and I'd be late.
As for teaching any whippersnappers, I think I could show them how NOT to do it. 
"Those who don't learn from history... blah, blah".

Sorry 'bout the satellite delay. I changed my profile and had to be reactivated.
I thought I'd just completed my quickest forum career _ever_ before crashing and burning. 

I know I've got the tape. I thought it was a pirate test tape and thought WTF when I heard the voices. The only tape player is in the motor, so where it is...  Dah, you'll all think i'm bluffing.


----------



## neprimerimye (Jun 15, 2006)

Hi Roly,

I wasn't in Cardiff for a part of the period you describe, caught the early part and the last part and being a marxist my attitude to the tale you tell is very different. Though not unsympathetic from a distance especially as one of those involved remains a friend to this day.

From the outside the anarcho milieu you describe did seem very ex-student and lumpens together. A result of high youth unemployment sociologically speaking I guess.

108 it should be made clear was not an anarcho thing. It predated your scene in any case and was more a development from the early 1970's wave of radicals who had not found a clear ideologial home so did 'alternative' stuff like bookshops and the like. By the mid-1980's it was marginal and very badly organised as i recall.

The Claimants Union that you mention was also dying when you guys got involved. In the early 1970's it had been a pretty big thing with a lot of work on various estates in Cardiff and involvment from the IS. Theres nobody around from those days mind so detail is hard to come by.

You wrote earlier that you were involved with DAM which gave things an anarcho-syndialist lavour. Fair enough but as I pointed out to you at the time given that none of you were actually in unions the syndicalism bit didn't actually mean anything.

Was Bone involved with the Scorcher? It was very funny as i remember it with many of the jokes designed to appeal to/piss off the official Labour movement types and the far left. Quite dissimilar to Class War really. There was at least one other anarchist mag out out in cardiff in those years and also a couple of pamphlets produced under the Council Communist banner. I've no more information on that and seem to have lost my copies.

Do you still have the Tory Funerals tape? If not i may be able to locate a copy. As for the Megaton Men single, contact address my Nans house as you note, there was nothing anarcho about it. The only connection being the drummer had earlier played in the Living legends.




			
				UncleRoly said:
			
		

> It wasn't a _current_ studenty thing, though I think a fair few had been students in the late 60's/early 70's.
> 
> Several were involved in the 108 Bookshop Co-operative in Salisbury Road. and several in the Claimants' Union, which was mostly a front for DAM, and how I got involved.
> 
> ...


----------



## chilango (Jun 15, 2006)

King Biscuit Time said:
			
		

> Loving these 'Tales of old Cardiff'
> 
> Sounds like someone needs to set up 'Anarchos Reunited'



I can fill y'all in on Cardiff @s in the mid 90s. But tbh we were pretty rubbish


----------



## neprimerimye (Jun 15, 2006)

chilango said:
			
		

> I can fill y'all in on Cardiff @s in the mid 90s. But tbh we were pretty rubbish



Yes you were.  

Unconnected I think to the scene Roly describes too.

it is interesting that both Roly's scene, Chilango's and the current CAN all draw on similar sources and adovcate similar tactics. That they have had very disparate levels of success, or none at all, is also suggestive.


----------



## chilango (Jun 15, 2006)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> Yes you were.
> 
> Unconnected I think to the scene Roly describes too.
> 
> it is interesting that both Roly's scene, Chilango's and the current CAN all draw on similar sources and adovcate similar tactics. That they have had very disparate levels of success, or none at all, is also suggestive.




Oh, completely unconnected to those before or after us afaik.

a big problem with the @ scene imo.


----------



## llantwit (Jun 15, 2006)

chilango said:
			
		

> Oh, completely unconnected to those before or after us afaik.
> 
> a big problem with the @ scene imo.


Which is why it's kind of nice to share stories.


----------



## llantwit (Jun 15, 2006)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> it is interesting that both Roly's scene, Chilango's and the current CAN all draw on similar sources and adovcate similar tactics. That they have had very disparate levels of success, or none at all, is also suggestive.


Depends on how you measure levels of success, I suppose.
You could say the same about the more party-oriented left in Cardiff.


----------



## chilango (Jun 15, 2006)

llantwit said:
			
		

> Which is why it's kind of nice to share stories.



Yeah....i`m trying to think of some good ones.


actually maybe it would be nice to try and write a short chronology/history of the various eras.


----------



## neprimerimye (Jun 15, 2006)

chilango said:
			
		

> Oh, completely unconnected to those before or after us afaik.
> 
> a big problem with the @ scene imo.



Not really. We're talking here of distinct phases in what is a regional city that lacks a mileu sizeable enough to support any kind og continuity. Indeed even in london there is precious little real continuity in terms of both organisation and leading figures. 'Freedom' is the only constant.

I suspect that if we excavated the anarcho scene of 68-75 in Cardiff what we would find is a bunch of people with far more varied ideas than the latter groups. Many with semi-marxist ideas and many more liberal and anti-aithoritarian than anything more positive. Which as things got more serious in the 1970's they broke up into their constituent parts.

Then you have Rolys scene which ha some continuity with what went before but was to a considerable degree the result of heavy youth unemployment in those years. Something Class War really capitalised on later and I think we should not ingore the Crass influence or cider-anarchism either. Yuck.

Both waves were then in my opinion the result of specific circumstances and generationally based. Which is not true of chilangos smaller milieu which was the result, to a degree, of the failure the SWP to hold some of them and their becoming pissed off as a result of the conservatism of that degenerating sect. Although to be fair they also felt the first stirrings of the current 'anti-capitalist' wave.

Which the current mob are the present local embodiment of in my opinion. Largely isolated and ideologically ossifed in the alter-ghetto. Very similar to the 'Trotskyist' sects in fact if with formally very different politics.


----------



## chilango (Jun 15, 2006)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> Although to be fair they also felt the first stirrings of the current 'anti-capitalist' wave.


´

If itw wasn`t for us Seattle would never have happenned!

really.


----------



## llantwit (Jun 15, 2006)

What did you lot get up to the Chilango? (without naming names, like )


----------



## llantwit (Jun 15, 2006)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> Not really. We're talking here of distinct phases in what is a regional city that lacks a mileu sizeable enough to support any kind og continuity. Indeed even in london there is precious little real continuity in terms of both organisation and leading figures. 'Freedom' is the only constant.
> 
> I suspect that if we excavated the anarcho scene of 68-75 in Cardiff what we would find is a bunch of people with far more varied ideas than the latter groups. Many with semi-marxist ideas and many more liberal and anti-aithoritarian than anything more positive. Which as things got more serious in the 1970's they broke up into their constituent parts.
> 
> ...



You're like some kind of revolutionary sage, there, eh Nep?
Genuine question - have you been in any parties or anything? Ex swoppie? Worker's Power?


----------



## neprimerimye (Jun 15, 2006)

llantwit said:
			
		

> Depends on how you measure levels of success, I suppose.
> You could say the same about the more party-oriented left in Cardiff.



My measure of success is to ask to what degree are class consciousness and class organisation developed from any given initiative.

Which why I consider that just about all initiatives from both the anarchist/libertarian and marxist/trotskyist camps have been pretty much dismal failues for the past thirty years. Despite the best intentions of most concerned and a lot of hard work besides.

In truth the activities of both camps do little to develop class consciousness/organisation at all. Mostly they just build their own sects and only rarely find themselves 'leading' anything larger and then by chance.

That said some do good work in the unions but given the degree of bureaucratisation of those bodies they do so as unionists not as revolutionists. Despite their intentions their work is easily recuperated unless and until they can achieve enough backing to develop autonomous workers action.


----------



## llantwit (Jun 15, 2006)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> My measure of success is to ask to what degree are class consciousness and class organisation developed from any given initiative.
> 
> Which why I consider that just about all initiatives from both the anarchist/libertarian and marxist/trotskyist camps have been pretty much dismal failues for the past thirty years. Despite the best intentions of most concerned and a lot of hard work besides.
> 
> ...


Fair enough.


----------



## neprimerimye (Jun 15, 2006)

llantwit said:
			
		

> Fair enough.



No it's not. It's crap. It doesn't take things forward.

Although in my defence it does at least try to be realistic which is not something i see coming from either of the two camps at present.


----------



## UncleRoly (Jun 15, 2006)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> one of those involved remains a friend to this day.


I wonder who. Any answer off board, natch.




			
				neprimerimye said:
			
		

> 108 it should be made clear was not an anarcho thing.


Didn't say it was, but @s were a large component of the volunteers.
It sold Stalinist "Progress Editions", (good markup); Uni. reading list stuff; LGB; Marxist Humanist; CPGB, (Still remember Ed) etc etc. as well as @ and squatting. I got in trouble for ordering Furry Freak Brothers and similar in an attempt to get some punters through the door.




			
				neprimerimye said:
			
		

> By the mid-1980's it was marginal and very badly organised as I recall.


I can't remember when the Nett Book Agreement was broken, but the competition was hotting up.




			
				neprimerimye said:
			
		

> The Claimants Union that you mention was also dying when you guys got involved.


Before my time. I arrived in Cardiff in '79




			
				neprimerimye said:
			
		

> none of you were actually in unions the syndicalism bit didn't actually mean anything.


I was, before during and after. Which has not entirely helped my career.
In the pub, nwnm mentions, I organised membership of (GMB) Five Star, (no, not the ones with hair and sequinned lycra), and co-led a successful wildcat strike over a sacking. 

At the last place you saw me, an accounts clerk got sacked for pregnancy. We got her in the union, which helped her legally. Too bad the place got closed before we were realy organised. 

Adhering to A-S rank and file principles, (as much as possible), helps overcome the cynicism of prospective members.




			
				neprimerimye said:
			
		

> Was Bone involved with the Scorcher? It was very funny as i remember it with many of the jokes designed to appeal to/piss off the official Labour movement types and the far left. Quite dissimilar to Class War really.


 Am I right in detecting irony in a Marxist? Bone was "ap Asgwrn" of course.




			
				neprimerimye said:
			
		

> Do you still have the Tory Funerals tape? If not i may be able to locate a copy. As for the Megaton Men single, contact address my Nans house as you note, there was nothing anarcho about it.


I've still got the quarter inch master of TF, and put the tracks up on the old MP3.com but some obscure hip hop outfit  are now impersonating us, so that's stuffed searching for anything.

I really need to get any recordings of a previous session with "Island Wars" if you have it. I do have a copy of the Abergavenny gig, but that is a feed off the PA, and crap. It still didn't stop the sound of the crowd's err... "friskiness", mind, or the incoming beer glasses.  Metallic K.O. or what?
Worth hearing for Bone slurring "You can't f*cking dance to this, w*nkers". 

I didn't claim that the Megs were overtly @ but 50 to 75% of the members were, and a lot of the lyrics were intended to be provokative. This actually worked: I got threatened over "Press Ups", but that _might_ have been something to do with the Basil Fawlty goosestepping. No sense of irony, some people.


----------



## chilango (Jun 15, 2006)

llantwit said:
			
		

> What did you lot get up to the Chilango? (without naming names, like )




will get back to you on this soon...


----------



## llantwit (Jun 15, 2006)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> No it's not. It's crap. It doesn't take things forward.
> 
> Although in my defence it does at least try to be realistic which is not something i see coming from either of the two camps at present.


I was generally agreeing with you, not having a go - not sure I liked the feeling.


----------



## neprimerimye (Jun 15, 2006)

llantwit said:
			
		

> I was generally agreeing with you, not having a go - not sure I liked the feeling.



Sure I understood that. My post was self critical not critical of you.

In any case i'm only little concerned by the labels epople pin on themselves whether they be anarcho or trot or whatever. i'm far more interrested in what their actions result in. Which as iv'e pointed out in both cases has for the main part been up themselves.

The problem is in pointing this out, which itself outrages those for whom politics is a relgious faith not a path towards the emancipation of man, it does not move us forward.


----------



## UncleRoly (Jun 15, 2006)

I've got to agree with neprimerimye on the lack of continuity, and the in-fighting at its root.

There's often too much concern with ideological purity rather than what unites us.
(By the time we get the theory right, everything will have moved on).

That having been said, when the various factions do get behind a mass movement like CND; Anti-Poll-Tax; Iraq, the results can be startling.

@s are not interested in membership. What is important is proximity to the half-interested, and the huge boost in confidence with even the most generalised opposition to to the established order. 
SWPies do this as an established tactic, and have tried to jump on every bandwaggon I can remember. I know this from many tiresome meetings in the Central Hotel etc. Their problem was always that their focus was to sign everyone up to the paper and party discipline, and chuck the issue overboard.

Every step to freedom has an importance in its own right, and just because they are single issue successes, rather than a putsch does not diminish them. 

We are *social* revolutionaries and don't want to seize _anything_ to usher in the "dictatorship of the proletariat". 
The movement is a means to an end, and that end is the realization of a philosophy.


----------



## neprimerimye (Jun 15, 2006)

Oh the idiot on drums is still a chum although we've not been in touch for while. And i still run into a lot of the people involved with the Megs. From a later era Chilango is a distant friend - well he is lving on another continent!

On 108. Sure volunteers came and went. I was one for a while! Don't think that the abolition of the NBA did for the left bookshops so much as a lot of their sales dissappeared as we moved into different conditions in the late 1970's and then the 1980's. And a lot of the feminist stuff was going mainstream too which ripped a chunk of the market away.

Anarchosyndicalism. Ok respect for that. But thats one individual and i a marginal workplace. What my mob were on about back then was actually a lot closer to the older Anarchosyndicalist ideas of building in industry than anything you gys were involved. And we had a bit of a toehold in those days too so it was a bit more than talk though i would not like to exagerate what we had it was marginal. But our comrades related to networks of rank and filers in other cities which gave us more clout than an individual operating on his/her lonesome.

Irony? You've obviously not read any Marx even now. Unlike say Bakunin the guy was deliberately funny.

On the Megs. Aw c'mon I know the drummer was involved with Class War and stuff but he wasn't political properly speaking. Other than repeating a couple of stock phrases he hadn't a clue and little real interest. That said he was and is principled in that he knows who the class enemy are and how to spot them. As for the others which of them was really political PM me with a reply.

Tapes. I'll ask Robin R and through him Jason S both have stacks of old tapes of the various bands they were in over the years. Something might turn up.




			
				UncleRoly said:
			
		

> I wonder who. Any answer off board, natch.
> 
> Didn't say it was, but @s were a large component of the volunteers.
> It sold Stalinist "Progress Editions", (good markup); Uni. reading list stuff; LGB; Marxist Humanist; CPGB, (Still remember Ed) etc etc. as well as @ and squatting. I got in trouble for ordering Furry Freak Brothers and similar in an attempt to get some punters through the door.
> ...


----------



## UncleRoly (Jun 15, 2006)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> our comrades related to networks of rank and filers in other cities which gave us more clout than an individual operating on his/her lonesome.


Point taken.




			
				neprimerimye said:
			
		

> Irony? You've obviously not read any Marx even now.


Marx... was not a Marxist.

On the Megs. Aw c'mon I know the drummer was involved with Class War and stuff but he wasn't political properly speaking. Other than repeating a couple of stock phrases he hadn't a clue and little real interest. That said he was and is principled in that he knows who the class enemy are and how to spot them. As for the others which of them was really political PM me with a reply.
[/QUOTE]
I'm glad you qualifed your comments on D**no.  I've been trying to get hold of him for a long time. Other than trying through his parents, I've drawn a blank. I will PM or Skype


----------



## neprimerimye (Jun 15, 2006)

No no no! You do not agree with me! You don't even understand what i wrote. Which is my fault for not being clearer.

The lack of continuity is not due to infighting at all. The infighting s a result of various class pressures on tendencies and individuals in the anarchist movement. (The same is true of the marxists of course). Which is then mediated into fights over direction of the collective concerned. All of which is made more flamable because most of those concerned are young and to some degree unskilled ideologically and personal facors loom large as a result.

Look it doesn't matter one little bit if one of you says i'm a communist anarchist, another says i'm a council communist, another an anarcho-syndicalist, another a platformist-anarchist and yet another claims to be an intertemporal pilot of the space-time continuum. What matters is what you do as a group the splits arise because you an't agree on that not because you disagree on ideology which is a mystified response to a lack of agreement as to common action.

now we disagree too on the importance of theory. certainly if we wait till we have sorted it out then the moment will pass but unless we have workable theory before the moment the most we can do is tail behind events or, at best, provide a momentary leadership which fades away with the mass movement failing to take the mass movement to a higher level of consciousness. Which is what happened in the anti-war movement in after the first protests in my opinion.

You are badly wrong when you say 'we' are not interested in membership but in proximity to the half interested. What is the point in being in close proximity to those becoming active unless you can offer them something more than bodyheat? Unless a movement recruits people and educates them then they will lapse back into inactivity. Like it or not organisation is very important or you will remain on the sidelines until the end of your days.

Which btw many an old time anarcho-syndicalist or Platformist would agree with. it is a crude individualist anarchism that is anti-organisational but it is all too typical of modern day anarchism. Which is another reason why you found it so hard to fight life stylist ieas as in actually you were very close to them but prefered another discourse due to the infleunce of the workers movement of the day. A movement then more real than that of today I might add.

Social revolutionaries do not srife to seize the present sdate but to smash it that is true. but the Dictatorship of the Proletariat is nothing but the self emancipation of the proletariat given form and substance and protecting itself from reaction. The social revolution is not the realization of a philosophy but the negation of philosophy.




			
				UncleRoly said:
			
		

> I've got to agree with neprimerimye on the lack of continuity, and the in-fighting at its root.
> 
> There's often too much concern with ideological purity rather than what unites us.
> (By the time we get the theory right, everything will have moved on).
> ...


----------



## UncleRoly (Jun 15, 2006)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> The lack of continuity is not due to infighting at all. The infighting s a result of various class pressures on tendencies and individuals in the anarchist movement. (The same is true of the marxists of course).


What various class pressures?




			
				neprimerimye said:
			
		

> Which is then mediated


By who? Ourselves? I'd agree that the root cause is frustration at a lack of results.




			
				neprimerimye said:
			
		

> What matters is what you do as a group


It is useful to have a concrete goal we can all sign up to, rather than sterile arguments about tactics, but we are not joined at the hip, and can see there are many facets to the problem which can be dealt with according to our situation and drawing to the same strategic aim. What we are doing is what we are doing and not the be-all and end-all.




			
				neprimerimye said:
			
		

> unless we have workable theory before the moment the most we can do is tail behind events


We already have a workable class analysis.




			
				neprimerimye said:
			
		

> What is the point in being in close proximity to those becoming active unless you can offer them something more than bodyheat?


I took it as read that we argue our side; try to steer the campaign in a revolutionary direction, and if we can't prevent recuperation, at least expose it beforehand, so we "fail with clarity". 
It is an iterative process and neither the succession of single-issues or the movement are end stages. Each feeds the other in a virtuous circle of self-confidence, probably.

I wouldn't say I'm for crude individualist lifestyle anarchism. Organisation is a tool to muster ideas; self-confidence and practical synergy without having to internalise a group ideology. Discipline should only extend as far as not gobbing-off on other people's behalf without reaching a concensus. 
If it doesn't nurture, and is an inhibitor, it ain't worth it.

God, I haven't exersized these head muscles for years, so bear with me.




			
				neprimerimye said:
			
		

> the Dictatorship of the Proletariat is nothing but the self emancipation of the proletariat given form and substance and protecting itself from reaction.


Hang on. Are you saying it is NOT top-down social engineering? 




			
				neprimerimye said:
			
		

> The social revolution is not the realization of a philosophy but the negation of philosophy.


It is the negation of _ideology_. I'm using philiosophy to denote something more instinctual. Something virtually all anarchists share at root.

Sorry to cut and run. Even abusing my employer's hospitality to do f*ck-all has a limit and I gotta go home. L8r


----------



## neprimerimye (Jun 15, 2006)

Replies point for point as far as  can manage.

What class pressures? That depends on the group concerned and the ambitions/desires of those concerned as well as the external pressure of various class forces. Which makes it an almost impossible question to answer directly as individuals and small groups do not directly reflect specific class or fractional pressures. Now if i were an 'orthodox trot' which praise Satan I'm not i would say that we can reduce the question to one of program and point to petty bourgeois influences on those setting up food co-ops and the like and working class pressures on those identifying with say syndicalism. Which is banal but there is some core of truth to it.

Much of what follows the above in your post seems to me to be empty of real content for example you say 'we already have a workable class analysis' which is laughable.  Where is it? To be honest most anarchist treatments of class steal from Marx. At least Bakunin was clear on that and said so forthrightly.

As for success coming when we unite thats a complete crock of shite. We have lost a lot of struggles because we were united and unity meant reducing the demands of a struggle to those of the most backward elements or those elements that one or other group sought to ingratiate themselves with. STWC has been the most dismal failure i can recall in over 30 years and largely due to the SWP holding the struggle back but from my observation nobody else was making much sense or pointing the way forward either except to raise slogans for actions that could not be raised. Like say TUC must call strikes againt the war! Great slogan but not a piss in hells chance of being realised. Or Diect Action Now! Which means occupy a road and get yer bum cold sitting on it for a couple of hours. Great fun the first time but where does it lead? And before anyone says but Mike you raising all these criticisms and you might have a point but what would you say was the way forward Ill tell ye. But not now.

And I simply cannot find any concrete discussion of how revolutionaries relate to others involved in the struggle at all that passes beyond platitudes. Which point I make bluntly - well I'm no fucking diplomat - because it is the honest way to address the problem. Although i do agree that individuals should not gob off on behalf of others unless they have a clear mandate. But the formlessness of so much of the anarchist movement does facilitate that does it not?

Yes I am saying that the Dictatorship of the Proletariat is not top down social engineering. Where did you get such a weird idea? It is the class rule of the majority class nothing more nothing less. The entrance hall to the building named freedom if ya wanna get poetic. And yes the Russian commune was the D of the P and yes it went wrong real early. But that does not invalidate either October as a proletarian revolution or the concept of a transitional period as put forward by Marx and rejected by Bakunin.

As for this "It is the negation of _ideology_. I'm using philiosophy to denote something more instinctual. Something virtually all anarchists share at root" well i've no idea what it means. ideology for Marxists is more or less systematic false consciousness which is why we represent Marxism not as an ideology, pace anarchism, but as scientific socialism. That is to say it represents the most developed form of pioletrarian class consciousness as developed in the struggle between the classes. As such it has a scientific and dialectical method based on the conflict of the material forces and relations of society. Which stands in conflict with this nebulous idea of instinct which seems positively primitive an atavistic form of idealism if you like.




			
				UncleRoly said:
			
		

> What various class pressures?
> 
> By who? Ourselves? I'd agree that the root cause is frustration at a lack of results.
> 
> ...


----------



## phildwyer (Jun 15, 2006)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> Oh the idiot on drums is still a chum although we've not been in touch for while.



Was that Dean or Jess?  Mike was on bass, right?


----------



## neprimerimye (Jun 15, 2006)

phildwyer said:
			
		

> Was that Dean or Jess?  Mike was on bass, right?



Deano. Jess may have already left the country by then. Yup Mikey on bass. At least neither RR or Bone were 'singing'.

Lets hope those two never meet again! Mikes still pissed at Dean after the studio shut. Blames him for the loss of kit you see. He has a point.


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## phildwyer (Jun 16, 2006)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> Deano. Jess may have already left the country by then. Yup Mikey on bass. At least neither RR or Bone were 'singing'.



I wish they'd *both* been singing, a duet made in heaven if ever there was one.  Was it Keyo on guitar?  Ah this takes me back...


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## neprimerimye (Jun 16, 2006)

phildwyer said:
			
		

> I wish they'd *both* been singing, a duet made in heaven if ever there was one.  Was it Keyo on guitar?  Ah this takes me back...



2 egos that size and talents that small....... 

Can't remember who was plank spanking but mark g did some and my copy of the 7" lives with most of my vinyl in RR's attic so I can't check. Roly?


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## phildwyer (Jun 16, 2006)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> my copy of the 7" lives with most of my vinyl in RR's attic



That's not all that lives in his attic, I'd rescue it if I were you.


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## UncleRoly (Jun 19, 2006)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> 2 egos that size and talents that small.......
> 
> Can't remember who was plank spanking but mark g did some and my copy of the 7" lives with most of my vinyl in RR's attic so I can't check. Roly?



Which band are you talking about?
If it's the Megs then Keyo was guitarist early on in the band. Mark G (aka Woosh Oleander ), was the spanker on Drop 1, (not kidding -   there were that many overdubs ), and on the 7". Jess never made it onto any recordings.
Mike M. on bass, (deserves an OBE for lasting the course); me on vocals and Deano on Drums

I'm slightly confused. I know Rob R did some old SWS and Megs numbers, but did he ever front the Megs _by name_?


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## phildwyer (Jun 20, 2006)

UncleRoly said:
			
		

> Which band are you talking about?
> If it's the Megs then Keyo was guitarist early on in the band. Mark G (aka Woosh Oleander ), was the spanker on Drop 1, (not kidding -   there were that many overdubs ), and on the 7". Jess never made it onto any recordings.
> Mike M. on bass, (deserves an OBE for lasting the course); me on vocals and Deano on Drums
> 
> I'm slightly confused. I know Rob R did some old SWS and Megs numbers, but did he ever front the Megs _by name_?



Don't think so.  I think Rob had more or less given up performing live by then, after breaking his leg in an ill-advised stage dive.  I also thought Keyo (and Jess) had gone off to Eddie and the Hot Rods by the early 90's.


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## Dic Penderyn (Mar 14, 2007)

chilango said:
			
		

> llantwit said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



?????


http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=170694


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## chilango (Mar 14, 2007)

I`d forgotten about this....


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