# overpayment of wages for 3-4 years



## shannon1967 (Mar 13, 2014)

hi , I hope someone can help me . I used to work a night shift a number of years ago and then moved onto a day shift. during my time on night shift I received a night shift allowance of about £75 a week , when I moved back on  to days I was told that my night shift allowance was pay protected for so many years so I would still get it . unfortunately , I cannot remember how long it was pay protected for and it seems that it has been paid to me ever since and didn't automatically stop when the time was up . I don't always check payslips, but it now appears that I have been overpaid the night shift money for a lot longer than I should have been . about 3 or 4 years ,and that would mean I owe my employer a huge sum of money . I am really worried  about how I am meant to pay this back ? especially due to the fact that I will already be losing money when the allowance stops . does anyone have any idea how much , or how long I can take to pay it back to them? thanks in advance


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## colacubes (Mar 13, 2014)

No advice on this issue, but are you in a union?  If not join quick sharp and get some advice from them.  good luck


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## Puddy_Tat (Mar 13, 2014)

First off, it would be worth trying to find (or asking your employer to find) something on paper that says how long the night shift allowance would continue to be paid for, and from (and to) what dates.

This is ACAS page on deductions from pay.

I'm not sure what the heck the answer is here.  It's generally the case that employers are allowed to deduct something if they have paid you in error (for example if they paid you double wages one month, it would not be that unreasonable for them not to pay you the next month)

Although if it's been going on for ages, I'm not sure it would be reasonable for them suddenly to say that you owe a few thousand and they aren't going to pay you anything until you've cleared the debt.

May be worth a phone call to ACAS (you don't have to say who you / your employer are) assuming you don't have access to union representation.


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## RedDragon (Mar 13, 2014)

It depends on how much you can afford -£15,000 is a shit load of money to find and at a payback £250.00 a month it would take 5 years.


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## belboid (Mar 13, 2014)

I'm afraid they will be able to make you pay,and can even decide upon the level of payments themselves. You need to see how much you owe, and then come up with a payment plan that is acceptable to both sides. The company could try and make you pay all at once, but as you're unlikely to be able to pay it all off at once, it's as much in their interests to make a reasonable arrangement.


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## quimcunx (Mar 13, 2014)

Have they shown you any documentation saying when it would stop? 

If you do have to pay it back can you offer to go back on night shift for a dayshift salary?

cesare any ideas?


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## Puddy_Tat (Mar 13, 2014)

colacubes said:


> No advice on this issue, but are you in a union?  If not join quick sharp and get some advice from them.  good luck



In theory, this.

Although be aware that many unions either have a qualifying period of membership, or a rule that they won't get involved about a problem that arose before someone joined the union.

After all, you'd not get house insurance if you waited until your place caught fire and only then rang up to get cover...


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## shannon1967 (Mar 13, 2014)

my other concern is , are they able to sack me over this? due to me not noticing , pointing it out sooner , the only defence I have is that I got in touch with them about it . they probably would continue to pay in indefinitely  if I hadn't spoke up . I know I have been stupid, but I also think they should be more organised also


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## belboid (Mar 13, 2014)

shannon1967 said:


> my other concern is , are they able to sack me over this?


Absolutely not, it's there mistake. 

A union would probably not give you any legal support, but if there's a rep already in the workplace they would probably be willing to try to negotiate for/with you.


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## DrRingDing (Mar 13, 2014)

If I was you I would NOT say a fucking word.

Join your union.

Keep fucking schtum.

Do NOT tell your colleagues.


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## DrRingDing (Mar 13, 2014)

shannon1967 said:


> my other concern is , are they able to sack me over this? due to me not noticing , pointing it out sooner , the only defence I have is that I got in touch with them about it . they probably would continue to pay in indefinitely  if I hadn't spoke up . I know I have been stupid, but I also think they should be more organised also



You've told them?


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## shannon1967 (Mar 13, 2014)

I told them because there was a similar case in my friends works and they tried to say it was fraud ( I am in a union already.


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## belboid (Mar 13, 2014)

Speak to your rep tomorrow then!


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## shannon1967 (Mar 13, 2014)

I phoned the human resources helpline to ask if it was due to stop , and they said it looked like I had been paid it too long already , im not sure exactly how long , but I couldn't keep just receiving it once I had a suspicion it was overdue


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## DrRingDing (Mar 13, 2014)

shannon1967 said:


> I told them because there was a similar case in my friends works and they tried to say it was fraud ( I am in a union already.



What's done is done. Now it's time to do your home work.

Fancy moving jobs?


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## shannon1967 (Mar 13, 2014)

DrRingDing said:


> What's done is done. Now it's time to do your home work.
> 
> Fancy moving jobs?



do you think I might have to? (


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## DrRingDing (Mar 14, 2014)

shannon1967 said:


> do you think I might have to? (



Well if this was me and the worst case scenario is they want you to pay 15k back I'd say cherio to the workplace and tell them i'll pay them off a quid a month.


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## RedDragon (Mar 14, 2014)

DrRingDing said:


> Well if this was me and the worst case scenario is they want you to pay 15k back I'd say cherio to the workplace and tell them i'll pay them off a quid a month.


That would only work if the OP was on very low pay or unemployed.

I think the OP is right to confront this issue, try and get the company to share liability and offer to payback £7,500 at £200 a month - worth a try.


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## DrRingDing (Mar 14, 2014)

RedDragon said:


> That would only work if the OP was on very low pay or unemployed.
> 
> I think the OP is right to confront this issue, try and get the company to share liability and offer to payback £7,500 at £200 a month - worth a try.



I think they should stop talking and get some proper advice before they get royally shafted.


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## DrRingDing (Mar 14, 2014)

You've done excellently skanking your work out of cash. Don't fuck it up now.


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## quimcunx (Mar 14, 2014)

Point out to them that you are in fact saving them money as if you had not brought it to their attention they could have been paying you too much for another 4 years or more....


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## Puddy_Tat (Mar 14, 2014)

I'd be very reluctant to offer anything until it's been established just how long the overpayment has been going on.

Can the employer prove that this protection was only for X years?


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## DrRingDing (Mar 14, 2014)

Speak to your union and have a word with your local CAB (if there's any left)


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## RedDragon (Mar 14, 2014)

DrRingDing said:


> You've done excellently skanking your work out of cash. Don't fuck it up now.


  

It's feasible the OP was genuinely unaware of the overrun of the nightshift allowance - some people are totally crap at monitoring their bank accounts/wage slips.


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## cesare (Mar 14, 2014)

It's important that you find the original agreement about moving on to days. Plus any relevant wording in your employment contract.

Firstly, with ring fencing salaries it's pretty standard to start clawing back over a number of years eg at pay review time no increase but amount of ring fencing reduced by that percentage. There may not have been any increases over the period but if there has been how those have operated on the the ring fenced amount. You need to do this to establish what the amount actually is.

Secondly, you need to establish if the agreement is a specific authorisation from you to deduct the [remaining] night allowance element from your wages after X period of ring fencing. If you didn't specifically consent to the deductions, they can't get your authorisation retrospectively. 

Thirdly, I'd be reluctant to call it an "overpayment" unless the employer has been very clear how and when they would start reducing the ring fenced amount and obtained specific consent from you to do that. Anything less than that is just some kind of statement of intent that they've evidently changed their mind about, rather than a specific agreement they can hold you to.


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## TopCat (Mar 14, 2014)

I would laugh and tell them to fuck off.


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## StoneRoad (Mar 14, 2014)

get advice from your union, acas and cab as soon as - with all the info  (contacts, wage slips etc) that you have available - ang stress how badly having to repay the full amount will affect your money status.
(Query - is any one else in the same  or a similar situation ??? or have they been, and how was it resolved - in other words did they write it off?)


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## sim667 (Mar 14, 2014)

TopCat said:


> I would laugh and tell them to fuck off.


 
Me too.... its their cock up. If they insisted in my current role, I'd quit (but then I'm only actually paid about £15k a year at the moment).

Also it will affect your tax, so they would either need to pay you back the tax that they've overdeducted from your salary, or organise that with the taxt office.

Additionally check if they've given you any statutroy pay rises and done any payments for pensions etc, if they've overpaid you for four years, then god knows what else they may have fucked up.


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## Quartz (Mar 14, 2014)

If it's been going on for that long it may now be permanent due to 'custom and practice'.


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## shannon1967 (Mar 14, 2014)

Quartz, what do you mean by may be permanent due to custom and practise? I'm wondering how much of the £75 would have been tax and N.I? Is it about 1/4 or less? I am dreading the fact it may be about £9000 but I cannot afford to walk away from my job, and I'm scared Incase they do sack me, is that an option for them? Could they class it as gross misconduct?


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## belboid (Mar 14, 2014)

It all depends upon what is in your contract - the contract is always king.  It is mindbogglingly unlikely that it could become custom and practise. You should only have to pay back what you have been overpaid - its up to the company to get back any tax they've overpaid for you. Assuming you're over the tax thresholds, you should be paying a third of the £75 to tax & NI (it may affect pensions contributions too).

And it is THEIR mistake, so it can't be counted as misconduct on your part - especially as you've pointed it out to them.


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## Quartz (Mar 14, 2014)

Custom & practice is where a workplace practice has been going on for a certain time - maybe 2 years - with neither side complaining. For example, at a previous workplace, a colleague was hired on a standard 9 to 5 contract, but worked the standard hours for that workplace, 8:30 to 5:30 with Friday afternoon off. When moving to another site after some years he was told to work 9 to 5, but he insisted on his old hours under custom and practice and won.


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## Quartz (Mar 14, 2014)

belboid said:


> And it is THEIR mistake, so it can't be counted as misconduct on your part - especially as you've pointed it out to them.



Absolutely.


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## TopCat (Mar 14, 2014)

belboid said:


> It all depends upon what is in your contract - the contract is always king.  It is mindbogglingly unlikely that it could become custom and practise. You should only have to pay back what you have been overpaid - its up to the company to get back any tax they've overpaid for you. Assuming you're over the tax thresholds, you should be paying a third of the £75 to tax & NI (it may affect pensions contributions too).
> 
> And it is THEIR mistake, so it can't be counted as misconduct on your part - especially as you've pointed it out to them.



Contracts have written, verbal and implied terms. I would argue that as the pay was constant for years this was the pay for the job and you owe them nothing.


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## belboid (Mar 14, 2014)

TopCat said:


> Contracts have written, verbal and implied terms. I would argue that as the pay was constant for years this was the pay for the job and you owe them nothing.


I'd be very surprised if they accepted such an argument, but it's worth a go!


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## TopCat (Mar 14, 2014)

belboid said:


> I'd be very surprised if they accepted such an argument, but it's worth a go!


The employer has a duty to get the wages right. If it was a one off overpayment then they could demand it back. But an overpayment over a period of several financial years? That they have provided tax information and P60's on? This is the rate for he job I would argue.


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## belboid (Mar 14, 2014)

Sadly, the number of years wont matter if it is clear in the written contract. There's plenty of case law to that effect.

Tho, of course, if they've fucked up pay that bad, they can just as easily have fucked up the contract.


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## ViolentPanda (Mar 14, 2014)

shannon1967 said:


> my other concern is , are they able to sack me over this? due to me not noticing , pointing it out sooner , the only defence I have is that I got in touch with them about it . they probably would continue to pay in indefinitely  if I hadn't spoke up . I know I have been stupid, but I also think they should be more organised also



1) You haven't been stupid.  Someone in your employers Human Resources/Payroll department has.
2) if they sacked you, they'd be doing so for no good reason (I doubt that your employment contract or terms and conditions contains a clause that states that you're obliged to check your salary to make sure that some beancounter hasn't messed up), and as you've been with them for over 2 years, you'd have the right to take them to tribunal for unfair dismissal if they tried that.
3) As you say, you've made *them* aware of their mistake. You haven't schemed or done anything to deceived them.  they have no grounds to discipline you, and plenty of grounds to discipline themselves.


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## Part 2 (Mar 16, 2014)

Once they ask for it back you might be feeling very ill all of a sudden... 6 months on the sick should make you feel better for their incompetence.


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## Fez909 (Mar 16, 2014)

This happened to me when I was at uni doing a part time job. I worked two 8 hours shifts and received unsociable hours shift allowance because it was during the evening.

I worked for more than a year and then one day came to work and my boss took me aside to explain that i had been overpaid .

Apparently i've been given 5 days shift allowance even though i only worked for 2 days. My boss luckily was an ex trade union rep and fought for me to be able to keep the money.

The reason we were able to get away with it was because on the payslip it didn't say how many hours the shift allowance covered it was just a flat payment with no hourly breakdown.

We argued that it was impossible for me to know that that wasn't what i was meant to be getting because there was nowhere  that showed how to work out the shift allowance based on my contract. If i have to pay back it would have meant I'd have no wages for about 3 months.

I argued that it already felt like I was being punished for someone else's mistake due to the pay cut, and having to pay it back would ruin me. in the end i kept it all.


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## Fez909 (Mar 16, 2014)

I meant to say above that that story wasn't just an anecdote, but maybe gives you an idea on how you can argue your case.

Do you have written evidence of when the pay should have reduced? If not, then how were you to know when to inform them?


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## Quartz (Mar 16, 2014)

Chip Barm said:


> Once they ask for it back you might be feeling very ill all of a sudden... 6 months on the sick should make you feel better for their incompetence.



Indeed. You're clearly very stressed about it now.


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## DJWrongspeed (Mar 18, 2014)

I wrote to my employer when this happened to me.  I left the company and was carried on being paid for 6weeks. I wrote twice to them afterwards about this mistake but never heard anything.
I rejoined the company sometime later and then after about a year received a demand. I consulted the CAB and sent them an explanatory letter (include my previous letters) telling them I would pursue the law of defence of estoppel. It worked ! but maybe they just thought they'd obviously messed up so badly and it was a long time ago it wasn't worth it.

Some blurb about a similar case


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## Phlegm (Apr 15, 2014)

shannon1967 said:


> hi , I hope someone can help me . I used to work a night shift a number of years ago and then moved onto a day shift. during my time on night shift I received a night shift allowance of about £75 a week , when I moved back on  to days I was told that my night shift allowance was pay protected for so many years so I would still get it . unfortunately , I cannot remember how long it was pay protected for and it seems that it has been paid to me ever since and didn't automatically stop when the time was up . I don't always check payslips, but it now appears that I have been overpaid the night shift money for a lot longer than I should have been . about 3 or 4 years ,and that would mean I owe my employer a huge sum of money . I am really worried  about how I am meant to pay this back ? especially due to the fact that I will already be losing money when the allowance stops . does anyone have any idea how much , or how long I can take to pay it back to them? thanks in advance


If you didn't know when the pay should have been reduced and they carried on paying it, I would think you have good grounds for not having to repay it.  I don't know which, or if you are in a union but if you are you will get free employment advice.


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## Phlegm (Apr 15, 2014)

belboid said:


> Absolutely not, it's there mistake.
> 
> A union would probably not give you any legal support, but if there's a rep already in the workplace they would probably be willing to try to negotiate for/with you.


My union, Unison, gives free legal advice/help but, as had been said, wouldn't give help if the situation happened before becoming a member.


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## Onket (Apr 15, 2014)

What happened,  shannon1967? How did it pan out?


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## Pickman's model (Apr 26, 2014)

yeh shannon1967 we need to know


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## StoneRoad (May 8, 2014)

Any news on this ? shannon1967


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## Pickman's model (May 8, 2014)

StoneRoad said:


> Any news on this ? shannon1967


shannon1967


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## girasol (May 8, 2014)

Hello shannon1967  any news?


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## RedDragon (May 8, 2014)

Expect an answer in 3-4 years.


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## shannon1967 (Oct 9, 2014)

hi everyone, really sorry its taken so long , I spoke to work about it all that time ago and then heard nothing until now . I stupidly thought they had forgotton about it . today they have sorted it all out now and the amount I owe them is £2900 . I know this is a lot, but I know in honesty I owe them a lot more so I don't really want to argue this amount , incase they actually turn around and say I owe them £9000 . they have said that  the most they can take from my weekly wages is 10% , which would be about £50 , I really don't think I can afford to pay anywhere near this amount , even £10 a week would make a difference , but if push comes to shove I will pay £10 a week ( do you think they will accept this amount from me ? I have so many bills. mortgage etc and ive already lost £50 a week due to the night shift allowance stopping . they haven't discussed repayment with me yet , but I just wanted some advice on the best way to go about offering them such a small amount . any advice would be greatly appreciated  x


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## Treacle Toes (Oct 9, 2014)

shannon1967 said:


> hi everyone, really sorry its taken so long , I spoke to work about it all that time ago and then heard nothing until now . I stupidly thought they had forgotton about it . today they have sorted it all out now and the amount I owe them is £2900 . I know this is a lot, but I know in honesty I owe them a lot more so I don't really want to argue this amount , incase they actually turn around and say I owe them £9000 . they have said that  the most they can take from my weekly wages is 10% , which would be about £50 , I really don't think I can afford to pay anywhere near this amount , even £10 a week would make a difference , but if push comes to shove I will pay £10 a week ( do you think they will accept this amount from me ? I have so many bills. mortgage etc and ive already lost £50 a week due to the night shift allowance stopping . they haven't discussed repayment with me yet , but I just wanted some advice on the best way to go about offering them such a small amount . any advice would be greatly appreciated  x




Given it was their mistake I think you have every right and reason to negoiate repayment. What did the union say?


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## shannon1967 (Oct 9, 2014)

ive not spoke to them yet. they have currently stopped the overpayment which is the main thing , I am hoping they don't just start to take the arrears without discussing it with me . I don't know whether to propose to them the £10 a week and see if they accept it, or speak to the union first ? x


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## ddraig (Oct 9, 2014)

speak to the union first, you need someone on your side so you don't have the extra stress
they will help you and argue your case
or should anyway
good luck


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## Onket (Oct 10, 2014)

ddraig said:


> speak to the union first, you need someone on your side so you don't have the extra stress
> they will help you and argue your case
> or should anyway
> good luck


This^


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## MrSki (Oct 10, 2014)

If they have stopped you shift allowance then plead poverty because your income has already dropped. I would not be surprised if they would just write it off.


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## DrRingDing (Oct 17, 2014)

shannon1967 said:


> ive not spoke to them yet. they have currently stopped the overpayment which is the main thing , I am hoping they don't just start to take the arrears without discussing it with me . I don't know whether to propose to them the £10 a week and see if they accept it, or speak to the union first ? x



Stop talking to the bosses!

Start talking to your union!


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## free spirit (Oct 17, 2014)

overpayments for that long, I'm pretty sure class as an implied increase to your original contracted pay rate, ie you have every right to accept it and expect it to continue.

not a lawyer, but defo worth contacting your union and asking them about this line of thinking on it.


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