# Peaches Geldof is dead, age 25



## _pH_ (Apr 7, 2014)

Blimey.


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## equationgirl (Apr 7, 2014)

I know. If it's the Geldof daughter I'm thinking of she has two small children


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## Belushi (Apr 7, 2014)

Found dead at 25 according to Radio 4, terribly young.


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## _pH_ (Apr 7, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> I know. If it's the Geldof daughter I'm thinking of she has two small children


Yeah, that's what they said on the news just now.


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## Artaxerxes (Apr 7, 2014)

Source?


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## frogwoman (Apr 7, 2014)

That is terrible  too young


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## weepiper (Apr 7, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> I know. If it's the Geldof daughter I'm thinking of she has two small children



2 and 1


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## _pH_ (Apr 7, 2014)

Artaxerxes said:


> Source?


BBC 6 o'clock news just now.


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## Voley (Apr 7, 2014)

Seriously? Fucking hell.


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## TheHoodedClaw (Apr 7, 2014)

Artaxerxes said:


> Source?



BBC 5Live just reported it.


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## savoloysam (Apr 7, 2014)

What of?


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## colacubes (Apr 7, 2014)

Artaxerxes said:


> Source?



Breaking news on the BBC website.  Far too young


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## _pH_ (Apr 7, 2014)

savoloysam said:


> What of?


They didn't say on the news


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## Ranbay (Apr 7, 2014)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-26931337


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## Artaxerxes (Apr 7, 2014)

Just found it on BBC and twatter

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-26931337


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## Looby (Apr 7, 2014)

Shit! She's got 2 very young children.


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## hash tag (Apr 7, 2014)

Such a waste of a life and so tragic for Bob...........


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## weltweit (Apr 7, 2014)

Very sad..


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## dessiato (Apr 7, 2014)

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-26931337

So far all it says is that she has died.


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## MellySingsDoom (Apr 7, 2014)

Oh good lord - truly tragic


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## SaskiaJayne (Apr 7, 2014)

Thats a shocker, poor Bob.


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## poului (Apr 7, 2014)

Weird.


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## Dan U (Apr 7, 2014)

Unexplained the radio is reporting.


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## Belushi (Apr 7, 2014)

Dreadful for the whole family.


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## dennisr (Apr 7, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> I know. If it's the Geldof daughter I'm thinking of she has two small children


regardless of who it is that's terrible news that i would not wish on anyone - for her and children :-(


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## equationgirl (Apr 7, 2014)

Someone has updated her wiki page already


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## mango5 (Apr 7, 2014)

Threads merged


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## wayward bob (Apr 7, 2014)

fuck


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Apr 7, 2014)

Truly awful, but I suppose the tabloids will be delighted.


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## DRINK? (Apr 7, 2014)

Very sad, last tweet was a pic of her and her mum RIP


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## TheHoodedClaw (Apr 7, 2014)

Christ, the last thing she tweeted yesterday was a photo of her and her mum. http://instagram.com/p/mdNpzsyTHd/#


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## equationgirl (Apr 7, 2014)

weepiper said:


> 2 and 1


1 on 24th April, 2 on 21st April. Far too young to lose their mum, heartbreaking.


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## KeeperofDragons (Apr 7, 2014)

Very sad


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## twentythreedom (Apr 7, 2014)

Didn't she have some history of hard drug use? Regardless, what an awful tragedy for the family and 2 baby children  RIP


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## 5t3IIa (Apr 7, 2014)

She was a dippy-nothing celebutante but 25 is a bit too young


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## eatmorecheese (Apr 7, 2014)

Know nothing about her, apart from who her parents were. Just tragic. Her poor children


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## equationgirl (Apr 7, 2014)

twentythreedom said:


> Didn't she have some history of hard drug use? Regardless, what an awful tragedy for the family and 2 baby children  RIP


She admitted to experimenting with drugs, not to an addiction. Although some arsewipe has updated her occupation to 'junkie' on her wiki page  which is both cruel and unnecessary (and at this time, not based in fact).


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## cesare (Apr 7, 2014)

These poor kids, how awful.


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## moomoo (Apr 7, 2014)

It's heartbreaking for her family. I feel so sad for Bob Geldof. 

My daughter really liked her because she took on Katie Hopkins in a debate about attachment parenting.


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## Dillinger4 (Apr 7, 2014)

.


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## Ranbay (Apr 7, 2014)

On Monday of all days :-(


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## Addy (Apr 7, 2014)

http://news.sky.com/story/1238572/peaches-geldof-found-dead-at-25


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## ddraig (Apr 7, 2014)

ouch!


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## editor (Apr 7, 2014)

I was at some bash once where she was DJing dreadfully. She seemed full of life. 

Seems strange that she's now dead. Her poor kids. And poor Bob, too.


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## goldenecitrone (Apr 7, 2014)

B0B2oo9 said:


> On Monday of all days :-(



Let's just hope she didn't fall into a large rodent removal device.


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## twentythreedom (Apr 7, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> She admitted to experimenting with drugs, not to an addiction. Although some arsewipe has updated her occupation to 'junkie' on her wiki page  .


Fucksake


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## trashpony (Apr 7, 2014)

She was bloody obnoxious the only time I came across her but what an awful thing to happen to such a young woman. Her poor kids


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## Cheesypoof (Apr 7, 2014)

I'm quite upset to read this. Just heard it on the news. 

I met Peaches once at a gig...she seemed a little guarded but a normal kid. She was so pretty. Its tragic she has died so young...she appeared on the Saturday Night Show in Ireland a few years ago, and came across very well - intelligent, witty and charming like her Mum...my guess is that it was drug influenced, but wasn't she a happy Mum these days?

And how much more can Bob take??

RIP Peaches.


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## T & P (Apr 7, 2014)

Fuck. That's really sad


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## editor (Apr 7, 2014)

*another thread merged


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Apr 7, 2014)

Tabloid scum will be harking for the days when they could freely spy on celebs, murdered kids and whoever.

When will we be able to simply feel sad for a tragedy without them going into overdrive?

I wish people would stop buying that lurid shit. They love death. They love misery


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## pogofish (Apr 7, 2014)

Some of my students hired her as a "Star DJ" for a party of theirs a few years back and regretted it.


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## yardbird (Apr 7, 2014)

Yes. Tabloid editors sharpen their pencils


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## wiskey (Apr 7, 2014)

pogofish said:


> Some of my students hired her as a "Star DJ" for a party of theirs a few years back and regretted it.


Why? 

Did she fail at both roles?


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## Dan U (Apr 7, 2014)

Geldofs statement is proper 

RIP

On phone so can't link


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## equationgirl (Apr 7, 2014)

twentythreedom said:


> Fucksake


Wiki editors have undone it now, thankfully.


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## TheHoodedClaw (Apr 7, 2014)

Dan U said:


> Geldofs statement is proper
> 
> RIP



Aye, Peter Allan on the radio struggled to get to the end of it


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## Batboy (Apr 7, 2014)

a family beset by tragedy. Can't imagine the pain that Geldof and his other children are going through.


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## savoloysam (Apr 7, 2014)

If it was drugs I can't imagine the pain of losing two loved ones in this way. Either way it's tragic i guess.


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## Spanky Longhorn (Apr 7, 2014)

I met her in the VIP bar at Reading festival one year where she dealt very nicely with the twat I was with who was trying to chat her up,,,

She seemed quite down to Earth for a born celeb


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## girasol (Apr 7, 2014)

Bit of a shock... Really? Started liking her after Katie Hopkins put down... Maybe evil Katie killed her?


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## weltweit (Apr 7, 2014)

Batboy said:


> a family beset by tragedy. Can't imagine the pain that Geldof and his other children are going through.


I agree, tragic, sad and pretty awful for the whole family.
It almost doesn't make any difference how her death came about.


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## Frances Lengel (Apr 7, 2014)

Ah well.


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## Libertad (Apr 7, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> She admitted to experimenting with drugs, not to an addiction. Although some arsewipe has updated her occupation to 'junkie' on her wiki page  which is both cruel and unnecessary (and at this time, not based in fact).





equationgirl said:


> Wiki editors have undone it now, thankfully.



The number of revisions and corrections that have had to made to her entry by Wiki are astounding. There are some sick fuckers out there.

This is all very sad.


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## muvva (Apr 7, 2014)

Dreadfully sad.


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## weltweit (Apr 7, 2014)

girasol said:


> Bit of a shock... Really? Started liking her after Katie Hopkins put down... Maybe evil Katie killed her?


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## Suzie 9mm (Apr 7, 2014)

Her dad must be feeling shit that is two of his family to die before their time


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## girasol (Apr 7, 2014)

I don't think it was drugs for some reason. PND? Poor thing  whatever it was, very sad. She was hounded by the media for a bit and seemed to come out the other side strong...


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## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Apr 7, 2014)

Never nice to hear about a young death. It sounds like she was actually even growing up a bit too. 
RIP


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## pogofish (Apr 7, 2014)

wiskey said:


> Why?
> 
> Did she fail at both roles?



I can't remember the specifics but yes, they were not that impressed.  Something about the flight up here as well.

Not that it matters any after this.


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Apr 7, 2014)

yardbird said:


> Yes. Tabloid editors sharpen their pencils



They sign cheques in pen though. £10ks for a photo of her father grieving in a moment he thought was private.


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## caleb (Apr 7, 2014)

One thing that strikes me as so sad about her death is that during her life, for many people (myself included, to be honest), she was never anything other than Bob Geldof's annoying daughter. 25 years old and what, a majority of that time in the public eye, and most of that time quite negatively. You wonder what that does to somebody, especially somebody who we can imagine was quite vulnerable to begin with.

I feel really sad about this, and I almost feel ridiculous for it.


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Apr 7, 2014)

You know what? Anything is too much to ask of someone going through something so awful, but I hope he goes ballistic at the slightest whiff of intrusion or sensationalising. It's long past time that borh "ordinary" folk and celebs revolted against tabloid filth.


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## Rebelda (Apr 7, 2014)

So sad, her poor family


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## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Apr 7, 2014)

weltweit said:


>



Sodding hell, that Hopkins is ridiculous, why are they getting her on all the time? 
I wish everyone would call Hopkins out for what she is (like Peaches here) every time they wheel her out, then maybe the media would just bloody STOP DOING IT!


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## agricola (Apr 7, 2014)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> You know what? Anything is too much to ask of someone going through something so awful, but I hope he goes ballistic at the slightest whiff of intrusion or sensationalising. It's long past time that borh "ordinary" folk and celebs revolted against tabloid filth.



Such outbursts are what they want, though - they get even more material when people do that.


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## blossie33 (Apr 7, 2014)

Very sad, especially as her mother died in tragic circumstances too, must be particularly hard on the family and so sad for her two children.


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## Barking_Mad (Apr 7, 2014)

One second you're here, the next you're gone.


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## twentythreedom (Apr 7, 2014)

Twitter's doing its usual thing of outing fucking idiots - some pretty unpleasant stuff there


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## yardbird (Apr 7, 2014)

I just watched the clip above.
That Katie cow ripped by Peaches.


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## el-ahrairah (Apr 7, 2014)

well that's very sad isn't it.


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## Piston (Apr 7, 2014)

I never paid much attention to her or know much about what she done but it's always shocking when someone so young dies unexpectedly. I had a look at her Twitter and just feel so sad that this has happened. RIP Peaches xx


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## Looby (Apr 7, 2014)

ATOMIC SUPLEX said:


> Sodding hell, that Hopkins is ridiculous, why are they getting her on all the time?
> I wish everyone would call Hopkins out for what she is (like Peaches here) every time they wheel her out, then maybe the media would just bloody STOP DOING IT!



Course they won't, she's ratings gold. Although I did hear that itv were dropping her.


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## Espresso (Apr 7, 2014)

Paula Yates' youngest daughter -Tigerlilly, is it? She's lost her Mum, Dad and one of her sisters and she can't even be ten yet. Poor little sod.


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## Part 2 (Apr 7, 2014)

Paula Yates dies in 2000 so should think her daughter is a bit older than 10.


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## Espresso (Apr 7, 2014)

Chip Barm said:


> Paula Yates dies in 2000 so should think her daughter is a bit older than 10.



Really? Bloody hellfire. 
That's gone by pretty quick

Thanks for putting me right.


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## clicker (Apr 7, 2014)

So sad for her family.


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## sleaterkinney (Apr 7, 2014)

That's really sad. RIP.


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## UrbaneFox (Apr 7, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> Someone has updated her wiki page already





equationgirl said:


> Wiki editors have undone it now, thankfully.





twentythreedom said:


> Twitter's doing its usual thing of outing fucking idiots - some pretty unpleasant stuff there



These infanet web ghouls.


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## Utopia (Apr 7, 2014)

Poor husband/kids.

25 is very young, really hope drugs weren't involved but then the timing, Monday after a weekend 'bender', her age & the fact she's dabbled previously……….might indicate they possibly were.


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## treelover (Apr 7, 2014)

Very very sad

for some reason The Guardian has opened the comments, hope that's an error


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## a_chap (Apr 7, 2014)

weltweit said:


>




I'd never heard of Katie Hopkins before, but I've taken an instant dislike to her. What a vacuous cow.

And my condolences to the Geldofs.


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## frogwoman (Apr 7, 2014)

I feel quite sad about this, especially because as you say Caleb most people only knew her as bobs annoying daughter. Poor lass, I really hope it wasn't suicide


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## weltweit (Apr 7, 2014)

Bob Geldof seems to have made a statement.


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## treelover (Apr 7, 2014)

The BBC is inviting people "to contact them with their views on what might have happened"

ffs...


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## butchersapron (Apr 7, 2014)

weltweit said:


> Bob Geldof seems to have made a statement.


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## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Apr 7, 2014)

sparklefish said:


> Course they won't, she's ratings gold. Although I did hear that itv were dropping her.



It's a shame though, lazy TV wankers should be shot down by ofcom for hiring a rent a gob who only opposes views for money and bears no actual relevance. The more people are fed shit, the more they eat it. 
I know the lazy TV wankers that make these shows and they are indeed lazy TV wankers. It reminds me of when come dine with me changed, and they would only have 'characters' as guests, and sod the food, just try and get everyone to argue. Serving up manipulated and fabricated disgusting behavior paints an unrealistic picture of 'the norm' that then in turn actually begins to affect how the viewers act in real life. 
TV today is just one big arse daily mail. Why does everyone view confrontation as 'good entertainment'.


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## Manter (Apr 7, 2014)

http://www.itv.com/news/2014-04-07/bob-geldof-full-statement-peaches-was-the-most-bonkers-of-us-all/

His statement


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## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Apr 7, 2014)

treelover said:


> The BBC is inviting people "to contact them with their views on what might have happened"
> 
> ffs...


When the news asks people for their views on the news, it is no longer the news. 
I watch the news for facts from experts that can tell me what is going on. When they start asking the viewer for feedback and comment then what are we actually watching?


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## frogwoman (Apr 7, 2014)

treelover said:


> The BBC is inviting people "to contact them with their views on what might have happened"
> 
> ffs...



That is terrible.


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## Cheesypoof (Apr 7, 2014)

When anyone young dies, its unsettling. And just tragic. Just heard on Sky News that it is not being trated as suspicious. I hope it wasn't drugs...


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## Part 2 (Apr 7, 2014)

treelover said:


> The BBC is inviting people "to contact them with their views on what might have happened"
> 
> ffs...



Beyond lazy. I mean if they want people's opinions they could at least be arsed to trawl Twitter/Facebook for some bollocks quotes.


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## Glitter (Apr 7, 2014)

This has really upset me. I quite liked her.

So so sad. Her poor family


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## Looby (Apr 7, 2014)

ATOMIC SUPLEX said:


> When the news asks people for their views on the news, it is no longer the news.
> I watch the news for facts from experts that can tell me what is going on. When they start asking the viewer for feedback and comment then what are we actually watching?



Yeah, it's shit. I don't give a flying toss what Mavis from Margate thinks, I just want the news. If I want anything else, I'll go to twitter or fb or here.


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## Manter (Apr 7, 2014)

My Facebook feed has filled up with people saying drugs/suicide/pnd suicide. Which theory they espouse seems to say more about them than her.


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## QueenOfGoths (Apr 7, 2014)

How very sad. So young and with two young children  Very, very sad


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## weltweit (Apr 7, 2014)

One of my relatives, with very young kids, died at a similar age, it was very difficult to make sense of.


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## Poot (Apr 7, 2014)

Glitter said:


> This has really upset me. I quite liked her.
> 
> So so sad. Her poor family


Ditto. 

And no one seems to be saying that it could possibly be a freak medical problem or an accident, which is odd.


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## Looby (Apr 7, 2014)

ATOMIC SUPLEX said:


> It's a shame though, lazy TV wankers should be shot down by ofcom for hiring a rent a gob who only opposes views for money and bears no actual relevance. The more people are fed shit, the more they eat it.
> I know the lazy TV wankers that make these shows and they are indeed lazy TV wankers. It reminds me of when come dine with me changed, and they would only have 'characters' as guests, and sod the food, just try and get everyone to argue. Serving up manipulated and fabricated disgusting behavior paints an unrealistic picture of 'the norm' that then in turn actually begins to affect how the viewers act in real life.
> TV today is just one big arse daily mail. Why does everyone view confrontation as 'good entertainment'.



I'm going to sound like such an old fart but this is why I like bake off and the sewing bee. 

Apart from the nastiness I've seen directed at a couple of contestants outside of the show, it's not like that. It's a more gentle type of show, it's fluffy and nice and warm. 

Come dine with me was hilarious for the first couple of years, then it just got mean.


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## rutabowa (Apr 7, 2014)

I don't know why it's so sad to me but it is I've just been in tears for last 15 minutes?? Im a stupid idiot


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## Glitter (Apr 7, 2014)

sparklefish said:


> I'm going to sound like such an old fart but this is why I like bake off and the sewing bee.
> 
> Apart from the nastiness I've seen directed at a couple of contestants outside of the show, it's not like that. It's a more gentle type of show, it's fluffy and nice and warm.
> 
> Come dine with me was hilarious for the first couple of years, then it just got mean.



It'll change. They always do.

Wife Swap was the same. It was really interesting before they deliberately set people up to scrap then it got shit.

Big brother was too.


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## oddworld (Apr 7, 2014)

Very sad indeed, her poor husband and children and family.


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## Looby (Apr 7, 2014)

Glitter said:


> It'll change. They always do.
> 
> Wife Swap was the same. It was really interesting before they deliberately set people up to scrap then it got shit.
> 
> Big brother was too.



I hope it doesn't, I don't get the impression it'll go that way. Although the attention Ruby got last year was unpleasant.


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## peterkro (Apr 7, 2014)

a_chap said:


> I'd never heard of Katie Hopkins before, but I've taken an instant dislike to her. What a vacuous cow.
> 
> And my condolences to the Gelfdofs.


To be fair Geldolf in that interview was also talking bollocks,it's sad when someone so young dies but lets not lose our grip on their views merely because they have died.


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## frogwoman (Apr 7, 2014)

25 is no age, it's the same age as me  and anyone making jokes - seriously fuck off


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## Glitter (Apr 7, 2014)

sparklefish said:


> I hope it doesn't, I don't get the impression it'll go that way. Although the attention Ruby got last year was unpleasant.



I've never seen it tbf. I am just a miserable old cynic.


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## dylanredefined (Apr 7, 2014)

Poot said:


> Ditto.
> 
> And no one seems to be saying that it could possibly be a freak medical problem or an accident, which is odd.



 Drugs can be understandable and then people can say nasty things.
If it was an accident or some medical problem that's just sad and a bit scary as young and famous people shouldn't just die like that.


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## Utopia (Apr 7, 2014)

peterkro said:


> To be fair Geldolf in that interview was also talking bollocks,it's sad when someone so young dies but lets not lose our grip on their views merely because they have died.



 Wow…..such empathy, the guys young daughters died…..give him a break hey?

* Sorry….thought you were on about Bob not Peaches!


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## weltweit (Apr 7, 2014)

None of my business, but I can't help wondering what happened.

My young relative had PND, and committed suicide. It was very hard to comprehend, she seemed to have had everything to live for.


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## peterkro (Apr 7, 2014)

Utopia said:


> Wow…..such empathy, the guys young daughters died…..give him a break hey?


I was referring to Peaches not Bob and I did say "it's sad when someone so young dies", nevertheless she was talking bollocks in some of that interview.


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## Cheesypoof (Apr 7, 2014)

She looked dangerously skinny in photos recently....it could have been a heart attack.


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## Welsh lad (Apr 7, 2014)

Far too young. RIP.


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## RedDragon (Apr 7, 2014)

Poor woman, rip.


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## Red Cat (Apr 7, 2014)

rutabowa said:


> I don't know why it's so sad to me but it is I've just been in tears for last 15 minutes?? Im a stupid idiot



I cried too. Her two little ones. It's very, very sad.


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## TitanSound (Apr 7, 2014)

BBC News interviewing her local taxi firms boss. Wtf.


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## rutabowa (Apr 7, 2014)

Red Cat said:


> I cried too. Her two little ones. It's very, very sad.


Yes I guess that's it


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## savoloysam (Apr 7, 2014)

TitanSound said:


> BBC News interviewing her local taxi firms boss. Wtf.



Standard.


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## kalidarkone (Apr 7, 2014)

peterkro said:


> To be fair Geldolf in that interview was also talking bollocks,it's sad when someone so young dies but lets not lose our grip on their views merely because they have died.


I thought she was talking total sense in that interview and it made me warm towards her. I'm wondering about PND, she had an awful small gap between the kids...exhausting. Anyway really sad news.


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## frogwoman (Apr 7, 2014)

treelover said:


> Very very sad
> 
> for some reason The Guardian has opened the comments, hope that's an error



They haven't exactly covered themselves in glory recently with that picture of the grief stricken relative of one of the Chinese passengers too...


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## RedDragon (Apr 7, 2014)

What irritates me is the knitting together of Tweets from random celebs to form an article.


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## frogwoman (Apr 7, 2014)

RedDragon said:


> What irritates me is the knitting together of Tweets from random celebs to form an article.



The media can be fucking vultures sometimes and it isn't just the tabloids


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## ChrisD (Apr 7, 2014)

That interview was the first I've ever heard her... she seemed v articulate and I too changed my opinion.  Now very sad to hear that news.


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## peterkro (Apr 7, 2014)

kalidarkone said:


> I thought she was talking total sense in that interview and it made me warm towards her. I'm wondering about PND, she had an awful small gap between the kids...exhausting. Anyway really sad news.


What annoyed me was what she referred to as the apparent lack of mental illness and bullying in Africa which is patently not true.


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## DotCommunist (Apr 7, 2014)

25? Thats not good innings at all


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## treelover (Apr 7, 2014)

peterkro said:


> What annoyed me was what she referred to as the apparent lack of mental illness and bullying in Africa which is patently not true.



Witchcraft, etc,


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## krtek a houby (Apr 7, 2014)

ATOMIC SUPLEX said:


> Sodding hell, that Hopkins is ridiculous, why are they getting her on all the time?
> I wish everyone would call Hopkins out for what she is (like Peaches here) every time they wheel her out, then maybe the media would just bloody STOP DOING IT!


 
A truly horrible and patronising person.


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## weltweit (Apr 7, 2014)

krtek a houby said:


> A truly horrible and patronising person.


Katie Hopkins does not bother me, I quite like her spirit. She tries to make a living, after losing the apprentice, and has decided being controversial maintains her profile and earning power. And she isn't really that controversial!


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## weepiper (Apr 7, 2014)

weltweit said:


> Katie Hopkins does not bother me, I quite like her spirit. She tries to make a living, after losing the apprentice, and has decided being controversial maintains her profile and earning power. And she isn't really that controversial!



She's a dick.


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## Ole (Apr 7, 2014)

25, for goodness sake. Her babies.


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## weltweit (Apr 7, 2014)

weepiper said:


> She's a dick.


Yes, but so are a lot of people


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## equationgirl (Apr 7, 2014)

weltweit said:


> Katie Hopkins does not bother me, I quite like her spirit. She tries to make a living, after losing the apprentice, and has decided being controversial maintains her profile and earning power. And she isn't really that controversial!


She's a nasty piece of work.


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## savoloysam (Apr 7, 2014)

She's just a rent a gob. There are bigger evils in the world to deal with.


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## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Apr 7, 2014)

sparklefish said:


> I'm going to sound like such an old fart but this is why I like bake off and the sewing bee.
> 
> Apart from the nastiness I've seen directed at a couple of contestants outside of the show, it's not like that. It's a more gentle type of show, it's fluffy and nice and warm.
> 
> Come dine with me was hilarious for the first couple of years, then it just got mean.



I agree. The great british bake off (though not my cup of tea) was refreshing in it's gentle, friendly and supportive approach. It's a shame a TV show should stand out because it lacks petty bickering and socially inept cretins. 
Come dine with me used to be a programme about people meeting in their local area, who all had a passion for cooking. That alone was interesting, seeing strangers getting together, enjoying each others company and food. There was a regime change and a new decision was made to introduce 'nut bars' who sucked at cooking and social interaction. Producers / APs were asked to encourage / fuel back biting. That kind of telly infuriates me. The attitude that people think we all want to see idiots and confrontation. I like to see nice people being nice and happy natural conclusions.  I can't be the only one. 
I saw one ep of that 'call centre', and I think that handled the subject matter quite well. It would have been easy to just make fun of everyone, when clearly that would not have been fair at all. If handled by some of the prize TV tools I know I think it would have been a horror show. I have only seen one ep though, so I am no authority.  I found out last week though that it was produced by a good friend so I would hate to hear other eps turn it over to the 'dark side'.


----------



## T & P (Apr 7, 2014)

What's the betting in the coming days there will be a particularly vile Daily Mail piece written by one their columnists, to be taken offline a couple of days later once the required number of clicks have been achieved?


----------



## maomao (Apr 7, 2014)

TitanSound said:


> BBC News interviewing her local taxi firms boss. Wtf.


She used to use my firm when she was in London. Used to keep them waiting hours, especially if someone else was paying. I assumed an OD like her mum when I first heard but police say they are treating it as 'unexplained' so probably some weird disease or condition. Very very sad, old Bob must be gutted.


----------



## weltweit (Apr 7, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> She's a nasty piece of work.


She is certainly ruthless, I haven't seen her be nasty though.


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 7, 2014)

T & P said:


> What's the betting in the coming days there will be a particularly vile Daily Mail piece written by one their columnists, to be taken offline a couple of days later one the required number of clicks have been achieved?


A sure thing I would have thought, sadly.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 7, 2014)

speaking of betting i don't suppose anyone had her in their dead pool


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 7, 2014)

Six articles about Peaches currently up on the Fail website


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 7, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> speakinf of betting i don't suppose anyone had her in their dead pool


Too soon Pickman's.


----------



## fuck seals (Apr 7, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> speaking of betting i don't suppose anyone had her in their dead pool



she doesn't really deserve that, pickman's.

she wasn't my favorite by a country mile, but the long and short of it is that's it's a truly sad passing


----------



## weltweit (Apr 7, 2014)

http://www.theguardian.com/culture/2014/apr/07/peaches-geldof-found-dead-aged-25


----------



## brogdale (Apr 7, 2014)

Tragically young and desperately sad for family & friends....but top story on the BBC? Really?


----------



## weltweit (Apr 7, 2014)

brogdale said:


> Tragically young and desperately sad for family & friends....but top story on the BBC? Really?


It has only just happened and is human interest.
Tomorrow, the Malasian 777's black box locator ping will probably take top slot.


----------



## brogdale (Apr 7, 2014)

weltweit said:


> It has only just happened and is human interest.
> Tomorrow, the Malasian 777's black box locator ping will probably take top slot.


 A light news day, eh?


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 7, 2014)

brogdale said:


> A light news day, eh?


a good day to bury bad news
while her death is tragic i think it's been taken out of all context and some of the responses remind me of the way diana's death brought out an overemotional reaction from some people.


----------



## weltweit (Apr 7, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> a good day to bury bad news


I am sure Maria Miller is hoping that is true!!


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 7, 2014)

weltweit said:


> I am sure Maria Miller is hoping that is true!!


any day is a good day to bury maria miller


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Apr 7, 2014)

Being fair, when somebody in their mid 20s dies unexpectedly without an accident or a long term condition, drugs and/or suicide are the most usual assumptions. Because they are most usually the reason.


----------



## Shirl (Apr 7, 2014)

How really bloody sad. What a waste and what a pity for her family and children


----------



## maomao (Apr 7, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> Six articles about Peaches currently up on the Fail website




And a couple of articles down from all that there's a story about an 18 year old who keeled over and died without explanation. Just as sad and sometimes people just drop dead in a way that isn't medically obvious.


----------



## free spirit (Apr 7, 2014)

This has really saddened me, her kids robbed of their mum at such a young age, and the rest of her family experiencing that sort of loss again.


----------



## ice-is-forming (Apr 7, 2014)

I just cried all the way to work aftre hearing this on the news. so so sad


----------



## Ceej (Apr 7, 2014)

This is just awful - her poor family, her poor babies. I'm surprisingly sad about this.


----------



## UrbaneFox (Apr 7, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> Six articles about Peaches currently up on the Fail website


Equation, I think you mean well, but all this Mail monitoring is doing you no good, causing multiple s.

Added to which if you carry on like this you may be accused of protesting too much.


----------



## JTG (Apr 7, 2014)

Tragic.

Having lost friends to drugs and suicide in the last couple of months, I really don't think it's right to speculate at all. It doesn't even matter really.


----------



## UrbaneFox (Apr 7, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> speaking of betting i don't suppose anyone had her in their dead pool


Hindsight wins every time.


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 7, 2014)

UrbaneFox said:


> E
> 
> Equation, I think you mean well, but all this Mail monitoring is doing you no good, causing multiple s.
> 
> Added to which if you carry on like this you may be accused of protesting too much.


I checked their website once. That's not monitoring. And please can you stop patronising me? I'm an adult, I know what does me good and and what doesn't.

If I was constantly posting links to their articles you may have had a point. But I'm not so you don't.


----------



## Cheesypoof (Apr 7, 2014)

JTG said:


> Tragic.
> 
> Having lost friends to drugs and suicide in the last couple of months, I really don't think it's right to speculate at all. It doesn't even matter really.



People cannot help wondering, because she died so young. People are shocked, baffled. I would like to know why she died. I think it matters. When people wonder why, it is not for ghoulish reasons. However, I hope the media can let Bob and his family grieve in some semblance of peace...


----------



## kenny g (Apr 7, 2014)

What a tragedy. And so young. Her poor children. I bet her dad really doesn't like Mondays now.


----------



## RedDragon (Apr 8, 2014)

I never imagined I'd find myself feeling sympathy for Bob Geldof , but these "I bet he doesn't like Monday's now" jokes are a tad crass.


----------



## Orang Utan (Apr 8, 2014)

twentythreedom said:


> Twitter's doing its usual thing of outing fucking idiots - some pretty unpleasant stuff there


I don't know who you follow but I have seen barely a mention so far.
Perhaps you are following the wrong people.


Very sad news all the same. Feel sorry for all who loved her.


----------



## laptop (Apr 8, 2014)

T & P said:


> What's the betting in the coming days there will be a particularly vile Daily Mail piece written by one their columnists, to be taken offline a couple of days later once the required number of clicks have been achieved?



So certain it's scarcely worth placing the bet.

I haven't checked thoroughly for duplicates, but I think I see *eleven* pieces on the Fail website now.


----------



## Citizen66 (Apr 8, 2014)

RIP. Didn't know much about her beyond her losing her mum at a young age and who her parents are. Talk about history repeating itself.


----------



## Dogsauce (Apr 8, 2014)

Know nothing about her really, so can't be sad for that, but her dad's statement is heartbreaking.

Press ghoulishness really winds me up. Expect pointless shots of reporters outside her house/family member's houses all over the fucking telly news tomorrow, like there's anything to add to the story by them being there.


----------



## Humberto (Apr 8, 2014)

Funny how people want to grieve and express sorrow about some non-entity who had a famous father.


----------



## caleb (Apr 8, 2014)

Humberto said:


> Funny how people want to grieve and express sorrow about some non-entity who had a famous father.



Part of what makes it so tragic is, as I said earlier, that she never appeared to be anything other than yeah, the annoying daughter of an annoying rich man. But she was a young woman with a young family she clearly loved and cared for deeply, and a young woman who never had any time to grow and develop outside of an aggressive public glare. She didn't ask for this attention, and whilst she may have revelled in it at points in her life, that doesn't stop the death of somebody so young, who went through so much in her short life, from being fucking sad.

If you can't see that, I feel sorry for you.


----------



## Orang Utan (Apr 8, 2014)

Humberto said:


> Funny how people want to grieve and express sorrow about some non-entity who had a famous father.


What is a non-entity?


----------



## Humberto (Apr 8, 2014)

Her death matters?


----------



## Orang Utan (Apr 8, 2014)

Humberto said:


> Her death matters?


As all do


----------



## Mikey77 (Apr 8, 2014)

I'm not usually saddened too much by celebrity tragedies but this one did get to me. I'm not sure why. Maybe because I remember her being mentioned on the news when Paula Yates died and having seen her on TV so many times growing up. I think it's easy to latch on to celebrities, or build them up into a certain person in your mind. Having said that it is objectively very sad for many reasons.

There are some weird things in tabloid reporting now when someone dies. Reporting the twitter responses of idiot nobody wannabe celebrities, and even the ridiculous stories like a mystery ghost hand in a photo of Peaches. Is any of that really appropriate.


----------



## Lord Camomile (Apr 8, 2014)




----------



## treelover (Apr 8, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> As all do



*No Man Is An Island*
No man is an island,
Entire of itself,
Every man is a piece of the continent,
A part of the main.
If a clod be washed away by the sea,
Europe is the less.
As well as if a promontory were.
As well as if a manor of thy friend's
Or of thine own were:
Any man's death diminishes me,
Because I am involved in mankind,
And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; 
It tolls for thee.


----------



## Citizen66 (Apr 8, 2014)

Humberto said:


> Funny how people want to grieve and express sorrow about some non-entity who had a famous father.



I've neither grieved or expressed sorrow. I've commented; on the internet. As have you.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 8, 2014)

Very sad, genuinely, a 25 year old with kids dying. However I can't say I've been affected or personally upset by it.  No doubt I'll be more upset by usual scumcreeps on twitter and the performance of the press over the next few days.


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Apr 8, 2014)

Humberto said:


> Funny how people want to grieve and express sorrow about some non-entity who had a famous father.



I think it's just what you do when you hear of someone dying, particularly so young too. I'm not grieving or in sorrow.  People die at the same age every day but I don't hear about it so I don't really express an opinion either way.  With people in the public eye they're a part of your life in some very tiny way, even if you didn't like them, because you knew their name, saw their face and knew a bit about their life so it's a very tiny piece of the puzzle being taken away when they're gone, some people are affected by that more than others.  If a 25 year old woman died half a mile away from me while I type this there would be no reaction at all from me because I didn't know her name, never saw her face or even heard about her passing.


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Apr 8, 2014)

Wilf said:


> Very sad, genuinely, a 25 year old with kids dying. However I can't say I've been affected or personally upset by it.  No doubt I'll be more upset by usual scumcreeps on twitter and the performance of the press over the next few days.



I'm really glad I don't have twitter particularly at times like this. Seems it's just another avenue to let fucking stupid people in your life. I do comment on youtube though so I suppose it balances out there.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Apr 8, 2014)

I Only glanced at Twitter but have to say that I saw a lot of sympathetic stuff and nothing nasty. I wonder if there's a tendancy to focus a small % of wankers who'd adapt their hateful outlook to any of the days news events.


----------



## Orang Utan (Apr 8, 2014)

You can only see stuff by people you follow, so don't follow hateful people.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Apr 8, 2014)

_pH_ said:


> Blimey.



That's so sad.


----------



## gabi (Apr 8, 2014)

I heard the Sun is giving it the full Diana treatment. First 7 pages devoted to it.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 8, 2014)

it's certainly sad but as Cheesypoof says leave her family & friends to grieve in private. tbh it's not like  she was the people's peaches, no one outside her social circle has a claim on her.


----------



## gabi (Apr 8, 2014)

Presumably page 3 isnt devoted to her actually, altho this is the Sun we're talkin


----------



## girasol (Apr 8, 2014)

Intelligent, photogenic, young, privileged, but also having dealt with so much sadness in her life: of course this will hit a nerve with most people... 

It also looked like she had a bright future ahead of her, no doubt because of her connections, but nonetheless, lots of privileged, well connected youngsters don't fulfill their promise.  

And weird how sometimes tragedy seems to run in some families.


----------



## girasol (Apr 8, 2014)

brogdale said:


> Tragically young and desperately sad for family & friends....but top story on the BBC? Really?



Must be based on hits...?


----------



## mauvais (Apr 8, 2014)

treelover said:


> No man is an island,
> Entire of itself,
> Every man is a piece of the continent,
> A part of the main.


Except Barry Island.


----------



## Red Cat (Apr 8, 2014)

Humberto said:


> Funny how people want to grieve and express sorrow about some non-entity who had a famous father.



Only funny for those who are so cut off emotionally that they need to try and convince themselves and others of their intellectual superiority to gain a sense of self-worth.

People feel sad because they imagine what it would be like for the little ones, what it would have been like for themselves, what it would be like for their own, or for a father to lose his young daughter. All that without actively imagining because it resonates with our most fundamental experiences of love. Isn't that obvious?


----------



## Sprocket. (Apr 8, 2014)

Another sad loss.
RIP.


----------



## gabi (Apr 8, 2014)

She wasn't a non-entity, none of us are. What a stupid fucking comment. 

I have no idea who she was really. but she was a young woman, with young kids. and thats shit.

a friend of mine knew and loved her mother for a period in the 80s and used to tell me some pretty fucked up stories about their exploits. He genuinely loved her i think but also went the way of the needle. Presumably. He was on his last legs when i left brixton a year ago but i know that paula and her kids used to use his place as a hiding place from the media (in fact my bedroom used to be hers). she could escape from everything in his place, with no intrusion. she sounded like a good soul from what he told me. i've not much time for geldof but i think you'd need a heart of fucking stone not to feel for him at the moment.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Apr 8, 2014)

she publicly ridiculed Katie Hopkins; that's worth something.


----------



## flypanam (Apr 8, 2014)

Poor kids and  poor husband whose going to have raise in the media's gaze.

Won't be long before the press is pushing 'The Geldof curse'


----------



## Mr Moose (Apr 8, 2014)

Red Cat said:


> Only funny for those who are so cut off emotionally that they need to try and convince themselves and others of their intellectual superiority to gain a sense of self-worth.
> 
> People feel sad because they imagine what it would be like for the little ones, what it would have been like for themselves, what it would be like for their own, or for a father to lose his young daughter. All that without actively imagining because it resonates with our most fundamental experiences of love. Isn't that obvious?



People don't want to be deceived by the spectacle that follows, nor erode their sense of class warfare. 

You can have empathy and do neither, but it's also not unreasonable to be reminded that it can be a very partial empathy.


----------



## N_igma (Apr 8, 2014)

Doesn't Humberto claim to be a Christian too? Very un-Christian like behaviour anyway.


----------



## brogdale (Apr 8, 2014)

girasol said:


> Must be based on hits...?



I don't know how story order is determined, but  suspect that it was editorial decisions across much of the digital media to lead on her sad death. I was, perhaps naively, just a little surprised that the death of a celebrity should command such a primacy in UK news coverage. On reflection, though, I suspect that my surprise may reflect my ignorance of her work more than anything else.

Clearly Peaches was not a non-entity, she was quite the opposite...a celebrity product, and that status will live on to pose difficulties for her husband and kids as they grieve.

Sad.


----------



## Athos (Apr 8, 2014)

Humberto said:


> Funny how people want to grieve and express sorrow about some non-entity who had a famous father.


 
She wasn't a 'non-entity'. She was a daughter, mother, wife, sister, friend etc. People express sorrow because its a sad thing that's happened. Not saying her minor celebrity status makes her death any more sad than that of an ordinary person, just more visible. As far as I can tell there was nothing so objectionable about her that would make anyone want to call her names, now she's dead.


----------



## bmd (Apr 8, 2014)

I have massive sympathy for her family, her children, her husband and her dad and sister. Especially her dad and sister. To have gone through this with their wife/mother and then again with their daughter/sister must be unbearable. My heart goes out to them all.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 8, 2014)

mauvais said:


> Except Barry Island.


nomans is an island http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nomans_Land_(Massachusetts)


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 8, 2014)

N_igma said:


> Doesn't Humberto claim to be a Christian too? Very un-Christian like behaviour anyway.


born again? twice too often


----------



## Wilf (Apr 8, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> it's certainly sad but as Cheesypoof says leave her family & friends grieve in private. tbh it's not like  she was *the people's peaches*, no one outside her social circle has a claim on her.


 I'll allow myself a small, guilty chuckle at that.


----------



## poului (Apr 8, 2014)

"After Peaches Geldof was found dead at 25 on April 6, police who searched her home that night say they found no evidence of ‘hard drugs, no suicide note and no visible signs of injury’ at the scene."

http://hollywoodlife.com/2014/04/07/peaches-geldof-cause-of-death-drugs-suicide/


----------



## Awesome Wells (Apr 8, 2014)

I despair (relatively speaking): a young woman passes and the reaction from the Scum is to show her as a teenager in her knickers. How fucking crass; is that how we are to view 'celebrity death'? Is that how women who die whilst in their prime are to be seen?


----------



## Gromit (Apr 8, 2014)

Sympathies to those left behind in grief.

Debating whether media prompted public grieving over celebrities  is crap / not crap belongs in a separate thread in my opinion... which i may or may not start.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Apr 8, 2014)

I bet the paparazzicunt that stuck a camera in Mick Jagger's face the other week is camped outside the Geldof house.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 8, 2014)

poului said:


> "After Peaches Geldof was found dead at 25 on April 6, police who searched her home that night say they found no evidence of ‘hard drugs, no suicide note and no visible signs of injury’ at the scene."
> 
> http://hollywoodlife.com/2014/04/07/peaches-geldof-cause-of-death-drugs-suicide/


Hollywoodlife also gave us 'stories' on:

'Celebrities who are aging horribly'
'14 hottest celebrities with ugliest significant others'
Along with a decision to show Peaches Geldof in her bra and knickers, a few hours
after the same body was found dead.

No comment needed really.


----------



## Dogsauce (Apr 8, 2014)

Red Cat said:


> People feel sad because they imagine what it would be like for the little ones, what it would have been like for themselves, what it would be like for their own, or for a father to lose his young daughter. All that without actively imagining because it resonates with our most fundamental experiences of love. Isn't that obvious?



Spot on. Think for me it hits a little more than these things usually do from having the sudden loss of a young(ish) friend quite recently, and having witnessed the harshness of family grief and sensing a little of how that feels.  A lot of people on this board will know this kind of thing.  You don't necessarily need to know the person.


----------



## poului (Apr 8, 2014)

Wilf said:


> Hollywoodlife also gave us 'stories' on:
> 
> 'Celebrities who are aging horribly'
> '14 hottest celebrities with ugliest significant others'
> ...



The quote isn't from the magazine.


----------



## Dogsauce (Apr 8, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> I bet the paparazzicunt that stuck a camera in Mick Jagger's face the other week is camped outside the Geldof house.



As well as being hugely insensitive, footage of the outside of celebrity houses is incredibly boring and adds nothing to the story. Wholly unnecessary, I've no idea why it's ever thought of as a good idea.  For some reason it makes me disproportionately angry, a common cause of shouting at the telly. Fuck off and leave them alone.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 8, 2014)

poului said:


> The quote isn't from the magazine.


Yes, I know - I wasn't criticising your post.  Just a passing comment on their scumbaggery. Slebs and the media live in a symbiotic relationship, but when it comes down to it they haven't an ounce of genuine loyalty for the person they treat as a commodity.


----------



## Cloud (Apr 8, 2014)

I'm puzzled a bit by this story. If it was an accidental drug death and yes everyone wise up, if parents are likely the world over to have a bottle of wine on a weekend then of course they may also use drugs instead. I'm afraid having children increases stress so those few glasses of wine could be seen as a little self medication. I just wonder how god damn strong the drugs are these celebrities take. I've known a fair few drug takers from the chairman to the lowest baghead, people who would inject with a puddle, corkscrew and a turkey baster or fasten a feed bag of coke to their faces from Friday to Sunday yet surprisingly very few have actually died, far less than my motorcycle buddies.

Looking at that twitter photo it looks like it could be suicide. You would think that having had that done to yourself you would not wish it on your own children but from my own experience it is almost as if its a parenting skill that you feel an unresistable subconscious need to copy the actions of your parents. It could even be genetic. I hated my father for his suicide attempts and swore never would I let that happen  but still did the same.

Who knows could be anything but the words celebrity and death tend to be synonymous with drugs unfortunately.

Very sad for the family. Jeez what a tragic tale.


----------



## brogdale (Apr 8, 2014)

Wilf said:


> Yes, I know - I wasn't criticising your post.  Just a passing comment on their scumbaggery. Slebs and the media live in a symbiotic relationship, but when it comes down to it they haven't an ounce of genuine loyalty for the person they treat as a commodity.



Do any capitalists?


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 8, 2014)

brogdale said:


> Do any capitalists?


not the successful ones.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 8, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> I despair (relatively speaking): a young woman passes and the reaction from the Scum is to show her as a teenager in her knickers. How fucking crass; is that how we are to view 'celebrity death'? Is that how women who die whilst in their prime are to be seen?


all women are teenagers in their knickers to the sun


----------



## Wilf (Apr 8, 2014)

brogdale said:


> Do any capitalists?


No, indeed.  It's just that events like this illustrate that point very well.  Normally, getting to know the details of someone's life generates a degree of empathy in the way you deal with them and the way you talk about them.  This just shows when there are other imperatives at work they were never anything other than a commodity. A well rewarded commodity and one that no doubt colluded with the same media, but still.... sorry, I'm well into statements of the obvious here.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 8, 2014)

This says it better


----------



## cantsin (Apr 8, 2014)

ice-is-forming said:


> I just cried all the way to work aftre hearing this on the news. so so sad



did u know her personally or something ?


----------



## Orang Utan (Apr 8, 2014)

Cloud said:


> I'm puzzled a bit by this story. If it was an accidental drug death and yes everyone wise up, if parents are likely the world over to have a bottle of wine on a weekend then of course they may also use drugs instead. I'm afraid having children increases stress so those few glasses of wine could be seen as a little self medication. I just wonder how god damn strong the drugs are these celebrities take. I've known a fair few drug takers from the chairman to the lowest baghead, people who would inject with a puddle, corkscrew and a turkey baster or fasten a feed bag of coke to their faces from Friday to Sunday yet surprisingly very few have actually died, far less than my motorcycle buddies.
> 
> Looking at that twitter photo it looks like it could be suicide. You would think that having had that done to yourself you would not wish it on your own children but from my own experience it is almost as if its a parenting skill that you feel an unresistable subconscious need to copy the actions of your parents. It could even be genetic. I hated my father for his suicide attempts and swore never would I let that happen  but still did the same.
> 
> ...


Maybe she just dropped dead. It happens more often than you'd think.


----------



## brogdale (Apr 8, 2014)

cantsin said:


> did u know her personally or something ?


Though I'm not keen on media manufactured mass grieving for celebrities, I think that's a tad harsh. It is possible to be very upset to hear of an untimely death of someone you don't personally know.


----------



## gabi (Apr 8, 2014)

The mails now saying it was a heart attack due to her being an ardent vegetarian


----------



## Wilf (Apr 8, 2014)

gabi said:


> The mails now saying it was a heart attack due to her being an ardent vegetarian


They'll struggle to connect this to benefit scroungers or Romanians, but I don't rule it out.


----------



## Dan U (Apr 8, 2014)

gabi said:


> The mails now saying it was a heart attack due to her being an ardent vegetarian



Jesus Christ. 

My step sister was a long term heroin and crack addict, on and off for best part of 20 years. She dropped down dead one day. She was clean at the time but we all thought she was using again as our immediate reaction. She had an anuyrism. 

How they can say this before the autopsy is beyond me.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 8, 2014)

It's the micro level of all this that disgusts me most - the hurried conversations in news rooms, editors sending reporters out to create stories, the desperation, going through the archives, mismatching stories and old pictures. Yuck.


----------



## 8ball (Apr 8, 2014)

gabi said:


> The mails now saying it was a heart attack due to her being an ardent vegetarian


 
Are they maybe mis-remembering last bacon sandwich scare story?


----------



## aqua (Apr 8, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> Maybe she just dropped dead. It happens more often than you'd think.


yep, a friend of mine at work's 25 year old niece died at the end of last year from a sudden heart attack with no previous issues at all. Very sad but not unheard of


----------



## cantsin (Apr 8, 2014)

brogdale said:


> Though I'm not keen on media manufactured mass grieving for celebrities, I think that's a tad harsh. It is possible to be very upset to hear of an untimely death of someone you don't personally know.



anything is possible, its just hard (for me to) see how this unfortunate ( and sad, considering her mum etc ) death could provoke that reaction in anyone that didn't know her personally - a stranger who meant something spiritually, politically, socially , maybe I can see it, even a pop star or a writer or something who's 'art' you connected with in a particular way/at a particular stage in your life maybe ....there are many scenarios I can imagine provoking that reaction, but this one is hard to figure out. Am not even being particularly judgemental, it's the interweb/the 21st century, anything is possible....I watched Extreme Couponing with the kids on Sunday for the lolz.....just a bit surprised / raising a quizzical eyebrow etc.


----------



## Orang Utan (Apr 8, 2014)

cantsin said:


> anything is possible, its just hard (for me to) see how this unfortunate death could provoke that reaction in anyone that didn't know her personally - a stranger who meant something spiritually, politically, socially , maybe I can see it, even a pop star or a writer or something who's 'art' you connected with in a particular way/at a particular stage in your life maybe ....there are many scenarios I can imagine provoking that reaction, but this one is hard to figure out. Am not even being particularly judgemental, it's the interweb/the 21st century, anything is possible....I watched Extreme Couponing with the kids on Sunday for the lolz.....just a bit surprised / raising a quizzical eyebrow etc.


Celebrities are like neighbours these days. People see them on telly and in the newspapers so often that they feel like they part of your community. So of course people feel sad when one dies, esp if they are young and leave behind grieving children


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 8, 2014)

cantsin said:


> anything is possible, its just hard (for me to) see how this unfortunate death could provoke that reaction in anyone that didn't know her personally - a stranger who meant something spiritually, politically, socially , maybe I can see it, even a pop star or a writer or something who's 'art' you connected with in a particular way/at a particular stage in your life maybe ....there are many scenarios I can imagine provoking that reaction, but this one is hard to figure out. Am not even being particularly judgemental, it's the interweb/the 21st century, anything is possible....I watched Extreme Couponing with the kids on Sunday for the lolz.....just a bit surprised / raising a quizzical eyebrow etc.


the world's gone mad


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 8, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> Celebrities are like neighbours these days.


that being the case why is there so much fuss? http://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/oct/30/how-well-know-your-neighbours


----------



## treelover (Apr 8, 2014)

> ....I watched Extreme Couponing with the kids on Sunday for the lolz.....just a bit surprised / raising a quizzical eyebrow etc.




There used to be a magazine called Competitors Journal, tips, strategies, etc,  for people who entered lots of comps, say on the side of cereal packets, etc, its inconceivable that a reality tv show could have been made about it, we live in bizarre times.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 8, 2014)

treelover said:


> There used to be a magazine called Competitors Journal, tips, strategies, etc,  for people who entered lots of comps, say on the side of cereal packets, etc, its inconceivable that a reality tv show could have been made about it, we live in bizarre times.


were you a subscriber?


----------



## brogdale (Apr 8, 2014)

cantsin said:


> anything is possible, its just hard (for me to) see how this unfortunate ( and sad, considering her mum etc ) death could provoke that reaction in anyone that didn't know her personally - a stranger who meant something spiritually, politically, socially , maybe I can see it, even a pop star or a writer or something who's 'art' you connected with in a particular way/at a particular stage in your life maybe ....there are many scenarios I can imagine provoking that reaction, but this one is hard to figure out. Am not even being particularly judgemental, it's the interweb/the 21st century, anything is possible....I watched Extreme Couponing with the kids on Sunday for the lolz.....just a bit surprised / raising a quizzical eyebrow etc.



Yep, but it just _sounded _a little harsh; perhaps unintentionally so?


----------



## laptop (Apr 8, 2014)

8ball said:


> Are they maybe mis-remembering last bacon sandwich scare story?



Pfft.




			
				Porn baron Richard Desmond said:
			
		

> Mar. 6, 2014
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Oooh... expressmiracles.tumblr.com


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 8, 2014)

brogdale said:


> Though I'm not keen on media manufactured mass grieving for celebrities, I think that's a tad harsh. It is possible to be very upset to hear of an untimely death of someone you don't personally know.


i was very upset margaret thatcher's death was so delayed.


----------



## brogdale (Apr 8, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> i was very upset margaret thatcher's death was so delayed.


----------



## D'wards (Apr 8, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> I bet the paparazzicunt that stuck a camera in Mick Jagger's face the other week is camped outside the Geldof house.


 I read the Mail and Guardian online, you know, for a bit of balance.

In the Mail they had pics of her home and ambulance taking her away etc, they had none of this in the Guardian and the reporting was not poorer because of it...


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 8, 2014)

D'wards said:


> I read the Mail and Guardian online, you know, for a bit of balance.
> 
> In the Mail they had pics of her home and ambulance taking her away etc, they had none of this in the Guardian and the reporting was not poorer because of it...


so you read two shit papers to get good news? take a long look at yourself and ask yourself why.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Apr 8, 2014)

D'wards said:


> I read the Mail and Guardian online, you know, for a bit of balance.
> 
> In the Mail they had pics of her home and ambulance taking her away etc, they had none of this in the Guardian and the reporting was not poorer because of it...


The Guardian does of course have a piece by Roy Greenslade saying "is all this coverage of Peaches Geldof dying over the top?" http://www.theguardian.com/media/greenslade/2014/apr/08/peaches-geldof-national-newspapers


----------



## Orang Utan (Apr 8, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> that being the case why is there so much fuss? http://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/oct/30/how-well-know-your-neighbours


Celebrities have taken over that role. Mass media has taken over the role.of the village pump. We no longer gossip about her two doors down, but about some soap actor's indiscretions instead.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 8, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> Celebrities have taken over that role. Mass media has taken over the role.of the village pump. We no longer gossip about her two doors down, but about some soap actor's indiscretions instead.


you may. i don't.


----------



## Orang Utan (Apr 8, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> you may. i don't.


I don't read newspapers or watch TV news but many do


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Apr 8, 2014)

Maybe I've misinterpreted Peaches Geldof's level of general fame but she doesn't strike me as being people's neighbour, more her from a couple of streets down who you see in the supermarket occasionally.


----------



## treelover (Apr 8, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> were you a subscriber?



nah, could never do the tie breakers which you had to do as so many would 'win'


----------



## D'wards (Apr 8, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> so you read two shit papers to get good news? take a long look at yourself and ask yourself why.


 Okay, i have an hour to spare, i'll go and do that now


----------



## Orang Utan (Apr 8, 2014)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Maybe I've misinterpreted Peaches Geldof's level of general fame but she doesn't strike me as being people's neighbour, more her from a couple of streets down who you see in the supermarket occasionally.


You would still be sad if the young mother who you saw down the supermarket occasionally dropped dead all of a sudden.


----------



## brogdale (Apr 8, 2014)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Maybe I've misinterpreted Peaches Geldof's level of general fame but she doesn't strike me as being people's neighbour, more her from a couple of streets down who you see in the supermarket occasionally.



Yep, which is why I started questioning the primacy of the story in virtually all of the online media last night. TBH, if my parents were not near neighbours of her father's converted Benedictine nunnery, I'm not sure that I'd have really been aware of her existence.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 8, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> You would still be sad if the young mother who you saw down the supermarket occasionally dropped dead all of a sudden.


We buy our groceries and celebs online now.


----------



## Citizen66 (Apr 8, 2014)

FridgeMagnet said:
			
		

> Maybe I've misinterpreted Peaches Geldof's level of general fame but she doesn't strike me as being people's neighbour, more her from a couple of streets down who you see in the supermarket occasionally.



The girl from a couple of streets down that you see in the supermarket every now and then that you know the parents of, then.


----------



## treelover (Apr 8, 2014)

brogdale said:


> Yep, which is why I started questioning the primacy of the story in virtually all of the online media last night. TBH, if my parents were not near neighbours of her *father's converted Benedictine nunnery*, I'm not sure that I'd have really been aware of her existence.




Bob Geldof is seriously rich, he owns Ten Alps and other media companies.


----------



## Orang Utan (Apr 8, 2014)

She and one of her sisters used to get dumped in a shop I used to work in on the King's Road, while her mum and a mate went shopping in Sloane Street. They were so aware of their mum's fane that instead of asking where their mum had got to, they'd ask for her by her name.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Apr 8, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> You would still be sad if the young mother who you saw down the supermarket occasionally dropped dead all of a sudden.


It would be sad but I'd be surprised if people were constantly knocking on my door and ringing me up telling me about it.


----------



## UrbaneFox (Apr 8, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> tbh it's not like  she was the people's peaches, no one outside her social circle has a claim on her.



Very good.


----------



## cantsin (Apr 8, 2014)

brogdale said:


> Yep, but it just _sounded _a little harsh; perhaps unintentionally so?



I'm not sure "did you know her personally..." qualifies as even _"_a little harsh" amidst the rough and tumble of modern life tbh


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 8, 2014)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> You know what? Anything is too much to ask of someone going through something so awful, but I hope he goes ballistic at the slightest whiff of intrusion or sensationalising. It's long past time that borh "ordinary" folk and celebs revolted against tabloid filth.



The problem is that many tabloid editors see their job not in terms of sensationalising, as much as in terms of "provoking debate" in the public interest.
Obviously, their ideas of what constitutes "the public interest" are fairly residual and base, and not generally in keeping with what the public *says* that it wants, but nevertheless, there is an unfortunate market for this stuff (enough of a market that even the post-Leveson regulations won't change too much of what they do).


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 8, 2014)

savoloysam said:


> She's just a rent a gob. There are bigger evils in the world to deal with.



True, but being a "rent-a-gob" isn't exactly a pinnacle of achievement.  It means that your convictions are meaningless to you in the face of money.  Me, I prefer people who have their own opinions, even if their opinions seem wrong to me.  Better that, than whoring your integrity to the highest bidder.


----------



## twentythreedom (Apr 8, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> You can only see stuff by people you follow, so don't follow hateful people.


Not if you search for "peaches geldof" - then you see every tweet about her. That's what I did yesterday.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 8, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> You would still be sad if the young mother who you saw down the supermarket occasionally dropped dead all of a sudden.


i would be surprised and perhaps perturbed if she died more than once, even if only on an occasional basis


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 8, 2014)

Humberto said:
			
		

> Funny how people want to grieve and express sorrow about some non-entity who had a famous father.



If it were about the individual, you *might* have a point, but as is obvious from the preceding 5 pages, it's mostly sorrow at someone or *anyone* dying that young, and sorrow that a couple of young children have lost a parent.
If that is a bit difficult for you to understand, then I suggest you work on your "impersonating a human being" skills a bit harder.


----------



## Orang Utan (Apr 8, 2014)

twentythreedom said:


> Not if you search for "peaches geldof" - then you see every tweet about her. That's what I did yesterday.


Then don't do it! I only read tweets from people I follow. Haven't got the time nor the inclination to search strangers' tweets.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 8, 2014)

mauvais said:


> Except Barry Island.



Yeah, but Barry is supposedly the 'ardest place on earth, so Barryites probably don't give a fuck.


----------



## scifisam (Apr 8, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> If it were about the individual, you *might* have a point, but as is obvious from the preceding 5 pages, it's mostly sorrow at someone or *anyone* dying that young, and sorrow that a couple of young children have lost a parent.
> If that is a bit difficult for you to understand, then I suggest you work on your "impersonating a human being" skills a bit harder.



Yes - these famous people's deaths are either:

An extension of friendly gossip (did you hear so-and-so's daughter's died? How terrible, let's take a bunch of flowers down) which happens because we are social beings, living in very large groups, not just as families;

Or a representation of people we do actually know, but most people don't: your wider group of friends didn't know your 6th-form friend who died unexpectedly, but they do have some knowledge of the famous person that they came to before knowing you. This famous death reminds you of the person you were actually close to. 

Sometimes it's both.

And if someone on here had posted about their child dying in the same way, there would be a lot of genuine grief felt by the people reading that, even if the poster had never come to any real life meets. Because we can empathise.


----------



## UrbaneFox (Apr 8, 2014)

Wilf said:


> They'll struggle to connect this to benefit scroungers or Romanians, but I don't rule it out.



She lived in Kent, where a lot of the people who pick fruit are paid cash in hand or come from eastern Europe, so this could be 
trending by teatime, if not before.


----------



## twentythreedom (Apr 8, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> Then don't do it! I only read tweets from people I follow. Haven't got the time nor the inclination to search strangers' tweets.


Why not do it? I like to know what's going on. The presence of a few dickheads doesn't upset me. This is Urban 75 FFS


----------



## Orang Utan (Apr 8, 2014)

twentythreedom said:


> Why not do it? I like to know what's going on. The presence of a few dickheads doesn't upset me. This is Urban 75 FFS


It's not how i choose to view Twitter. I don't bother with trending and all that bollocks. I just read the tweets of those whose opinions I'm interested in.


----------



## twentythreedom (Apr 8, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> It's not how i choose to view Twitter. I don't bother with trending and all that bollocks. I just read the tweets of those whose opinions I'm interested in.


There's a whole big, wide world out there you know


----------



## Orang Utan (Apr 8, 2014)

twentythreedom said:


> There's a whole big, wide world out there you know


And I read all about it on the internets


----------



## Humberto (Apr 8, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> If it were about the individual, you *might* have a point, but as is obvious from the preceding 5 pages, it's mostly sorrow at someone or *anyone* dying that young, and sorrow that a couple of young children have lost a parent.
> If that is a bit difficult for you to understand, then I suggest you work on your "impersonating a human being" skills a bit harder.


 
Mainly due to her minor celebrity status.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 8, 2014)

Humberto said:


> Mainly due to her minor celebrity status.



No, mainly due to the fact that she was a 25-yr old female with two kids.  That we *know* about her death is due to her "status", but the fact that people feel sorrow is because we feel sad that anyone dies "before their time" and leaves loved ones behind.


----------



## Humberto (Apr 8, 2014)

ok


----------



## Dr Jon (Apr 8, 2014)

> Peaches Geldof is dead, age 25


Who?


----------



## articul8 (Apr 8, 2014)

Dr Jon said:


> Who?


 this is my feeling - I feel no more or less sorrow than on reading a newspaper story about the death of any mum of 25 with two kids.   Other than her parentage and shit name (both of them - but not her fault) I have no idea who she is.


----------



## Dogsauce (Apr 8, 2014)

That Microsoft paperclip thing just popped up on Jan Moir's computer:


----------



## Orang Utan (Apr 8, 2014)

articul8 said:


> this is my feeling - I feel no more or less sorrow than on reading a newspaper story about the death of any mum of 25 with two kids.   Other than her parentage and shit name (both of them - but not her fault) I have no idea who she is.


You do know who she is. Such studied ignorance!


----------



## articul8 (Apr 8, 2014)

I don't know what she was or did or anything about her other than her parentage and a vague sense that the tabloids were interested in her.   eg. who, prey, is someone Kardashian? (sp?) - genuinely no idea.  Feel like a high court judge


----------



## Orang Utan (Apr 8, 2014)

articul8 said:


> I don't know what she was or did or anything about her other than her parentage.


There you are see. You do know who she is.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 8, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> There you are see. You do know who she is.


Shall we have a Peaches quiz?


----------



## Dogsauce (Apr 8, 2014)

tbh I thought she was a popstar, had no idea about writing/presentation stuff.  I don't really watch the telly though.


----------



## scifisam (Apr 8, 2014)

Oh for God's sake, saying "who" on a celebrity death thread is pathetic. Especially when the thread itself specifies who it is, so you are actually just being superior. Look, I know nothing about popular culture, and this makes me better than you!


----------



## Dr Jon (Apr 8, 2014)

scifisam said:


> Oh for God's sake, saying "who" on a celebrity death thread is pathetic. Especially when the thread itself specifies who it is, so you are actually just being superior. Look, I know nothing about popular culture, and this makes me better than you!


Nobody I've spoken to today had any idea who she was before this was "news".
Like we're supposed to give a fuck - people we don't know die every day...


----------



## rutabowa (Apr 8, 2014)

Dr Jon said:


> Like we're supposed to give a fuck - people we don't know die every day...


omg more incredible mind-blowing insights.


----------



## Mikey77 (Apr 8, 2014)

Dr Jon said:


> Nobody I've spoken to today had any idea who she was before this was "news".
> Like we're supposed to give a fuck - people we don't know die every day...



You gave a fuck enough to post in this thread.


----------



## hammerntongues (Apr 8, 2014)

Dr Jon said:


> Nobody I've spoken to today had any idea who she was before this was "news".
> Like we're supposed to give a fuck - people we don't know die every day...




So nobody you spoke to had had heard of or knew who she was ??  Total bullshit .


----------



## Dr Jon (Apr 8, 2014)

hammerntongues said:


> So nobody you spoke to had had heard of or knew who she was ??  Total bullshit .


OK pedant - nobody I've spoken to _about this_...


----------



## scifisam (Apr 8, 2014)

Dr Jon said:


> OK pedant - nobody I've spoken to _about this_...



So you've spoken to several people about this death that you don't care about?


----------



## hammerntongues (Apr 8, 2014)

That`s what I was referring to , not " anybody " you are seriously saying that nobody you spoke to about the death of a mystery person called Peaches Geldof had heard of her and who she was ?  I`ll say it again Total Bullshit . If it makes you feel good by pretending otherwise then go ahead .


----------



## Dr Jon (Apr 8, 2014)

scifisam said:


> So you've spoken to several people about this death that you don't care about?


yeah - as in remarks like "had you ever heard of her before this?"  "why is this news?"  "just arty-farty twats down south innit?"


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Apr 8, 2014)

Dr Jon said:


> yeah - as in remarks like "had you ever heard of her before this?"  "why is this news?"  *"just arty-farty twats down south innit?"*



Ah so that's the reason for your smug self satisfaction.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 8, 2014)

Doctor Carrot said:


> Ah so that's the reason for your smug self satisfaction.


i didn't think it was smug self-satisfaction, i thought Dr Jon was wallowing in his ignorance


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Apr 8, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> i didn't think it was smug self-satisfaction, i thought Dr Jon was wallowing in his ignorance



A little from column A and a little from column B.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 8, 2014)

Just in case it come up, I knew who Thatcher was when she died.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 8, 2014)

Wilf said:


> Just in case it come up, I knew who Thatcher was when she died.


she was still margaret thatcher.


----------



## Athos (Apr 8, 2014)

Wilf said:


> Just in case it come up, I knew who Thatcher was when she died.


 
She didn't.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 8, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> she was still margaret thatcher.


Yes, some sort of research chemist if I remember correctly. Don't know what she did later on.


----------



## bmd (Apr 8, 2014)

Why do people post on this thread to say  that they don't know who she was? What are you trying to say? That she wasn't famous enough for you? That there shouldn't be a thread about her death? 

If I posted a thread about the kid down the road from me who died you would say "who?"  What is your point? That you don't care? That your world isn't touched by people who die that have achieved a small level of fame? Please, explain.


----------



## articul8 (Apr 8, 2014)

Its sad insofar as its sad when any young woman and mum dies.   But we're not talking about someone whose loss will be felt by many in terms of her contribution to public life. Unlike most others who get their own #rip thread in this forum


----------



## maomao (Apr 8, 2014)

articul8 said:


> Its sad insofar as its sad when any young woman and mum dies.   But we're not talking about someone whose loss will be felt by many in terms of her contribution to public life. Unlike most others who get their own #rip thread in this forum


I think if Peaches Geldof had died of cancer 30 years from now she wouldn't rate her own thread. I think that people are shocked by someone keeling over at the age of 25.


----------



## a_chap (Apr 8, 2014)

maomao said:


> I think if Peaches Geldof had died of cancer 30 years from now she wouldn't rate her own thread. I think that people are shocked by someone keeling over at the age of 25.



Depends what she had done in the intervening 30 years.


----------



## bmd (Apr 8, 2014)

[Aren't ="articul8, post: 13052825, member: 17514"]Its sad insofar as its sad when any young woman and mum dies.   But we're not talking about someone whose loss will be felt by many in terms of her contribution to public life. Unlike most others who get their own #rip thread in this forum[/QUOTE]

I feel sad about her death precisely because I had a window into her life, much more so than a private citizen.


----------



## weltweit (Apr 8, 2014)

It isn't that she was a celebrity. I feel sad because she and her family were known to me. Tragedy has already visited them which makes it worse but I feel similarly about this as I do about anyone else whom I am aware of who is going through a similar situation.


----------



## cantsin (Apr 8, 2014)

weltweit said:


> It isn't that she was a celebrity.* I feel sad because she and her family were known to me.* Tragedy has already visited them which makes it worse but I feel similarly about this as I do about anyone else whom I am aware of who is going through a similar situation.



so you knew her personally, or via the media ?


----------



## weltweit (Apr 8, 2014)

cantsin said:


> so you knew her personally, or via the media ?


Via the media, she and her family were known to me but I was not known to them.


----------



## Orang Utan (Apr 8, 2014)

We might also feel empathy cos we have also lost others recently and it reminds us of that sadness


----------



## weltweit (Apr 8, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> We might also feel empathy cos we have also lost others recently and it reminds us of that sadness


Sure, in my case we recently lost a relative of the same age also with young kids.


----------



## articul8 (Apr 8, 2014)

No problem with any of that.  Empathy at that level is understandable


----------



## Orang Utan (Apr 8, 2014)

weltweit said:


> Sure, in my case we recently lost a relative of the same age also with young kids.


A young friend (34 - young to me even though I'm only six years older) for me. That shock, that suddenness but certainness of a death is hard to get your head around and other deaths make you think about it and make you sympathise with the people who loved them.


----------



## JTG (Apr 8, 2014)

Yes, genuine tragedy has touched me and people close to me in recent months and stuff like this is a reminder. We empathise. Doesn't need analysis surely?


----------



## weltweit (Apr 8, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> A young friend (34 - young to me even though I'm only six years older) for me. That shock, that suddenness but certainness of a death is hard to get your head around and other deaths make you think about it and make you sympathise with the people who loved them.


Yes, perhaps a stupid thing to observe, but it is hard to comprehend the finality, that "I will never see this person again!"


----------



## Orang Utan (Apr 8, 2014)

weltweit said:


> Yes, perhaps a stupid thing to observe, but it is hard to comprehend the finality, that "I will never see this person again!"


It's not stupid at all. It's very difficult indeed to come to terms with. Can't imagine what it must be like for a family member


----------



## cantsin (Apr 8, 2014)

weltweit said:


> Via the media, *she and her family were known to me but I was not known to them.*




not sure what that second bit means, but, straight question, when you say "I feel similarly about this as I do about anyone else whom I am aware of who is going through a similar situation.", is that anyone else that you "are aware of"  of "via the media" ?

If that's the case, that's awful lot of "sadness" for you to deal with ?


----------



## weltweit (Apr 8, 2014)

cantsin said:


> not sure what that second bit means, but, straight question, when you say "I feel similarly about this as I do about anyone else whom I am aware of who is going through a similar situation.", is that anyone else that you "are aware of"  of "via the media" ?
> 
> If that's the case, that's awful lot of "sadness" for you to deal with ?


I think cantsin you are over complicating things.

Someone I knew personally died young recently, with young children. It was very sad. Peaches Geldof has died in seemingly similar circumstances and I can easily empathise. Both are very sad situations.


----------



## Orang Utan (Apr 8, 2014)

cantsin said:


> not sure what that second bit means, but, straight question, when you say "I feel similarly about this as I do about anyone else whom I am aware of who is going through a similar situation.", is that anyone else that you "are aware of"  of "via the media" ?
> 
> If that's the case, that's awful lot of "sadness" for you to deal with ?


Deaths are reported every day in the newspaper. Do you not feel sadness reading about them?


----------



## JTG (Apr 8, 2014)

It's a real thing, whatever the level of reportage

My friends expressed sadness when I told them about sad events connected to me involving people they did not know. Empathy innit


----------



## cantsin (Apr 8, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> *Deaths are reported every day in the newspaper*. Do you not feel sadness reading about them?



Obviously, those deaths are reported every day as part of the continual battle to sell papers/engage eyeballs,and feels to me like a long way from the reality of a death close to you. My brother died of a v stupid drug overdose at 20, it feels like a long time ago now, but having seen at first hand what that does to a family - the pain/madness/sorrow that never fully goes away - "the sadness " that people on the internet apparently feel when names they read about in the media "very sadly"  die seems kinda abstract and hard to relate to tbh. 


I


----------



## Orang Utan (Apr 8, 2014)

cantsin said:


> Obviously, those deaths are reported every day as part of the continual battle to sell papers/engage eyeballs,and feels to me like a long way from the reality of a death close to you. My brother died of a v stupid drug overdose at 20, it feels like a long time ago now, but having seen at first hand what that does to a family - the pain/madness/sorrow that never fully goes away - "the sadness " that people on the internet apparently feel when names they read about in the media "very sadly"  die seems kinda abstract and hard to relate to tbh.
> 
> 
> I


Well it's not for most people


----------



## kenny g (Apr 8, 2014)

RedDragon said:


> I never imagined I'd find myself feeling sympathy for Bob Geldof , but these "I bet he doesn't like Monday's now" jokes are a tad crass.



Come off it. It can hardly be a coincidence.


----------



## clicker (Apr 8, 2014)

Sadness and indeed happiness aren't a calculable science though are they? They have varying levels / depths. To say it is strange or wrong to feel such an emotion is denying it can have many forms.


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## cantsin (Apr 8, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> Well it's not for most people



not sure exactly what that means


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## Orang Utan (Apr 8, 2014)

cantsin said:


> not sure exactly what that means, but sounds pretty cretinous  .


Eh? I'm just saying that people are often reminded of their own sadness when reading about others' tribulations too.


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## cantsin (Apr 8, 2014)

]Eh? I'm just saying that people are often reminded of their own sadness when reading about others' tribulations too.[/QUOTE]

apols, actually edited out the second part pretty quickly after swallowing rising bile.

Am going to vacate this thread  for now, I feel like I'm from a different fucking planet or something.


----------



## Orang Utan (Apr 8, 2014)

cantsin said:


> ]Eh? I'm just saying that people are often reminded of their own sadness when reading about others' tribulations too.



apols, actually edited out the second part pretty quickly after swallowing rising bile.

Am going to vacate this thread, I feel like I'm from a different fucking planet or something.[/QUOTE]
Listen. I normally couldn't give a fuck about airhead celebrity offspring but reading about a young mother with a familiar face dying and leaving two children, in a family that had already lost two senior members in tragic circumstances, made me feel sad for the family and sad for myself and others who had lost loved ones. Why is that so hard for you to get your head around?


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## Orang Utan (Apr 8, 2014)

Mind you, I find it hard to get around the fact that people are upset cos a man who is famous for driving cars recklessly is in a coma for sliding down a hill recklessly. Horses for courses innit. Our empathy is not limitless - it is curtailed by our own prejudices and assumptions.


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## cantsin (Apr 8, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> apols, actually edited out the second part pretty quickly after swallowing rising bile.
> 
> Am going to vacate this thread, I feel like I'm from a different fucking planet or something.


Listen. I normally couldn't give a fuck about airhead celebrity offspring but reading about a young mother with a familiar face dying and leaving two children, in a family that had already lost two senior members in tragic circumstances, made me feel sad for the family and sad for myself and others who had lost loved ones. Why is that so hard for you to get your head around?[/QUOTE]

I was replying to Weltwelt, quizzical about his "sadness" for people he seemed to know, but in fact meant he "knew" them via the media. "Why is it so hard to get your head around " my inability to equate that in any meaningful way with the reality of first hand death of the young in the immediate family ?


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## cantsin (Apr 8, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> Mind you, I find it hard to get around the fact that people are upset cos a man who is famous for driving cars recklessly is in a coma for sliding down a hill recklessly. Horses for courses innit. Our empathy is not limitless - it is curtailed by our own prejudices and assumptions.



or more potently, shaped by our own experiences of death in real life, away from the Spectacle.


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## Orang Utan (Apr 8, 2014)

cantsin said:


> or more potently, shaped by our own experiences of death in real life, away from the Spectacle.


Sorry if this is wrong but you seem to be saying that because you have had your own personal losses, you can't empathise with others'? Especially if they are famous. ??


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## kenny g (Apr 8, 2014)

I gave a small fuck yesterday, I couldn't give a fuck now. It's just how it is, doesn't make me any better or worse than someone who is sobbing into their cornflakes over it.


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## bmd (Apr 8, 2014)

I can continue to give a fuck whilst keeping it all in perspective. Check me out! *takes a bow*


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## cantsin (Apr 8, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> Sorry if this is wrong but you seem to be saying that because you have had your own personal losses, you can't empathise with others'? Especially if they are famous. ??



no need to apologise,but yes, totally wrong. You're talking about "empathy", but I was responding to someone who was "very sad "by the death of people he/she seemed to think he/she "knew", but it turned out didnt know. Or didn't "know" in the old fashioned sense.

I feel empathy for the Geldofs, and was no doubt momentarily "shocked", just as the media hopes/expects, but I guess  the fact that I feel I (like millions of others) that I know what "very sad " means in real life, I can't easily equate my feelings for the passing of complete strangers, "famous" or not,  with "very sad" . "


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## Orang Utan (Apr 8, 2014)

cantsin said:


> no need to apologise,but yes, totally wrong. You're talking about "empathy", but I was responding to someone who was "very sad "by the death of people he/she seemed to think he/she "knew", but it turned out didnt know. Or didn't "know" in the old fashioned sense.
> 
> I feel empathy for the Geldofs, but I guess  the fact that I (like millions of others)  know what "very sad " means when taken to it's logical conclusion, means I can't equate my feelings for the passing of complete strangers, "famous" or not,  with "very sad" . "


But you can appreciate how existent feelings of grief can be amplified by reading/hearing the reporting of other deaths?


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## cantsin (Apr 8, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> But you can appreciate how existent feelings of grief can be amplified by reading/hearing the reporting of other deaths?



for me personally - there was no room for amplification as I remember it tbh, let alone by media reports of a strangers death -  raw grief seemed to exist in it's own suffocating, existential bubble. But that was just us, then. Maybe nowadays that death would have been a social network event shared by all, including empathetic near strangers , as young deaths often are these days.


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## bmd (Apr 8, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> Mind you, I find it hard to get around the fact that people are upset cos a man who is famous for driving cars recklessly is in a coma for sliding down a hill recklessly. Horses for courses innit. Our empathy is not limitless - it is curtailed by our own prejudices and assumptions.


 
I don't think this is the same thing. He took a risk and it didn't work out for him. It's tragic but I feel the same about this as I would someone crashing whilst trying out a wing suit. Shit but not wholly unexpected.


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## Mikey77 (Apr 9, 2014)

cantsin said:


> I feel empathy for the Geldofs, and was no doubt momentarily "shocked", just as the media hopes/expects, but I guess  the fact that I feel I (like millions of others) that I know what "very sad " means in real life, I can't easily equate my feelings for the passing of complete strangers, "famous" or not,  with "very sad" . "



Unless like me you have been emotionally numb after a relative dies. In fact I was reading something Peaches Geldof said about not crying at her mother's funeral and not properly grieving until five years afterwards. You seem to talk on the premise that we are all in touch with our emotions in a healthy way. It is kind of awkward to talk about but I kind of never really faced up to my mum dying. I was emotionally numb through depression in the first place. I think there is something in what you are saying, it just doesn't apply to everyone.


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## cantsin (Apr 9, 2014)

Mikey77 said:


> Unless like me you have been emotionally numb after a relative dies. In fact I was reading something Peaches Geldof said about not crying at her mother's funeral and not properly grieving until five years afterwards. You seem to talk on the premise that we are all in touch with our emotions in a healthy way. It is kind of awkward to talk about but I kind of never really faced up to my mum dying. I was emotionally numb through depression in the first place. I think there is something in what you are saying, it just doesn't apply to everyone.



not at all, there was no "in touch with our emotions in a healthy way " element about my experiences, "suffocating", miserable, isolated (wont go into it, but there was no poetic / collective solace etc) , it was fucking insane and horrible, from start ( copper in my gaff at 7 am sneerily asking me to put away the weed bag / other stuff on the table as he told me what he immediately / obviously assumed was the not wholly unexpected news) to finish ( which it hasnt,really).

But will say, a kid going is different to a parent going everyone says, natural way of it all etc. Our relationships with parents are naturally much more complicated, and responses vary massively ( not always a Richard Curtis scripted outpouring of warm, uncomplicated, elegant grief)  -  a youngsters death is I guess, at the very least, more straight fwd to deal with in that sense, perverse though that sounds.


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## UrbaneFox (Apr 9, 2014)

Dogsauce said:


> tbh I thought she was a popstar, had no idea about writing/presentation stuff.  I don't really watch the telly though.



Dogsauce, thanks for  the paperclip joke. 

I think she was married to one of the Bee Gees.


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## skyscraper101 (Apr 9, 2014)

I met her very briefly once, about 10 years ago at the Live Aid DVD event she must've been 14 or 15 with Bob and her sisters, I remember she was trying to get someone to give her some of the free booze IIRC Bob had told everyone not to. That's my very tenuous link anyway.

Like others I didn't have much of an opinion about her until the other week when she gave that horrid cow what for on this morning. She seemed to have come good, sort of. Very sad for all who were close to her, and the kids.


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## skyscraper101 (Apr 9, 2014)

Russell Brand with some relevant thoughts on the media reporting/Peaches Geldof etc:


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## Orang Utan (Apr 9, 2014)

What a load of bollocks.
Total ARSEWEE


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## gabi (Apr 9, 2014)

skyscraper101 said:


> Russell Brand with some relevant thoughts on the media reporting/Peaches Geldof etc:




He can be an eloquent man, but he's also a huge fucking hypocrite. His Paxman rant was quality until you realize he's just bought himself a multi million dollar mansion in Beverley Hills, and I'm not sure he's quite the right man to bemoan the 'salaciousness' of the broadcast media when after all this is someone who humiliated a young conquest of his and her grandfather on national radio by telling us all exactly how he shagged her.


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## Batboy (Apr 9, 2014)

gabi said:


> He can be an eloquent man, but he's also a huge fucking hypocrite. His Paxman rant was quality until you realize he's just bought himself a multi million dollar mansion in Beverley Hills, and I'm not sure he's quite the right man to bemoan the 'salaciousness' of the broadcast media when after all this is someone who humiliated a young conquest of his and her grandfather on national radio by telling us all exactly how he shagged her.



Yep, I got flamed on these boards at the time of the paxman interview for slagging Brand off for being a fucking hypocrite.


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## Red Cat (Apr 9, 2014)

cantsin said:


> Obviously, those deaths are reported every day as part of the continual battle to sell papers/engage eyeballs,and feels to me like a long way from the reality of a death close to you. My brother died of a v stupid drug overdose at 20, it feels like a long time ago now, but having seen at first hand what that does to a family - the pain/madness/sorrow that never fully goes away - "the sadness " that people on the internet apparently feel when names they read about in the media "very sadly"  die seems kinda abstract and hard to relate to tbh.
> I



I think sadness is an appropriate word for what many people have felt here. It's not grief, it's sadness, probably a fleeting sadness for most of us. Apologies if this is presumptuous, but I don't think I'd use the word sadness to describe your experience, it's more brutal than that, it sounds to me closer to devastation, and it would be absurd to equate the two experiences, although the feelings you've been left with over time include sadness.


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## Batboy (Apr 9, 2014)

cantsin said:


> no need to apologise, but yes, totally wrong. You're talking about "empathy", but I was responding to someone who was "very sad "by the death of people he/she seemed to think he/she "knew", but it turned out didn't know. Or didn't "know" in the old fashioned sense.
> 
> I feel empathy for the Geldof's  and was no doubt momentarily "shocked", just as the media hopes/expects, but I guess  the fact that I feel I (like millions of others) that I know what "very sad " means in real life, I can't easily equate my feelings for the passing of complete strangers, "famous" or not,  with "very sad" . "



I endorse what you say and I made a very simple comment yesterday about Geldoff, but it does drive me nuts when people and the media orgasm over celebrity deaths.

Yesterday I found out about two deaths of people I know, one was my best mates mum and the other was my sons, best mates cousin who at 18 died in a rock climbing fall in central America, their family are pretty devastated, I know the family really well. The young lad went to my kids school, many of the teachers were in tears. It totally diluted any thoughts of mine about the Geldof's loss. I now have possibly two funerals to go to in a week. The difference is there is not going to be a forty page thread about the whys, and how's and the ohs.


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## maomao (Apr 9, 2014)

Batboy said:


> I endorse what you say and I made a very simple comment yesterday about Geldoff, but it does drive me nuts when people and the media orgasm over celebrity deaths.
> 
> Yesterday I found out about two deaths of people I know, one was my best mates mum and the other was my sons, best mates cousin who at 18 died in a rock climbing fall in central America, their family are pretty devastated, I know the family really well. The young lad went to my kids school, many of the teachers were in tears. It totally diluted any thoughts of mine about the Geldof's loss. I now have possibly two funerals to go to in a week. The difference is there is not going to be a forty page thread about the whys, and how's and the ohs.


There's been no such thing. There were a couple of pages of people saying 'crikey, that's rather sad' and then ten pages of arguing about whether it's alright to think it's a bit sad or not.


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## Batboy (Apr 9, 2014)

maomao said:


> There's been no such thing. There were a couple of pages of people saying 'crikey, that's rather sad' and then ten pages of arguing about whether it's alright to think it's a bit sad or not.



There will be on other forums, probably a million postings id reckon


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## maomao (Apr 9, 2014)

Batboy said:


> There will be on other forums, probably a million postings id reckon


Must be a billion I reckon. But not here. Somewhere else.


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## Citizen66 (Apr 9, 2014)

Dr Jon said:
			
		

> Nobody I've spoken to today had any idea who she was before this was "news".



And yet there you all were, discussing her.


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## Wilf (Apr 9, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> And yet there you all were, discussing her.


'Somebody died'
- Is it good that we don't know who she is?
'I don't know, I don't know who she is'
- Shall we go on the internet and find out?
'Okay, but won't we lose our superiority then?'
- Dunno, I reassess that when we find out who she is

Edit: I've just seen on another thread that The Ultimate Warrior has died. I _*really*_ don't know who that is.


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## Citizen66 (Apr 9, 2014)

Wilf said:
			
		

> Edit: I've just seen on another thread that The Ultimate Warrior has died. I really don't know who that is.



I see loads of RIP threads where I haven't the foggiest who it is. I either ignore the thread or Google to find out more.

Saying 'Who?' really does just mean 'OMGz I can't believe you are having a RIP thread for this person.' Which is a cuntish thing to do on a RIP thread. Unless it's about Thatcher.


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## Awesome Wells (Apr 9, 2014)

Wrestlers seem to drop like flies. It's a pretty depressing lifestyle by all accounts: by day entertaining rednecks who like violence, by night sleeping in hotel rooms on painkillers.


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## Blagsta (Apr 9, 2014)

cantsin said:


> not sure exactly what that means



It means that reading about sad things in the news often invokes our own sadnesesses and feelings of loss.


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## Cheesypoof (Apr 9, 2014)

i was thinking about this tragedy and didnt sleep well either Monday or last night. That will make sense to some and sound bonkers to others. It stokes up unsettling feelings in me, for all kinds of reasons. Some are personal but my strongest is a sadness I feel for a young woman robbed of her life, children robbed of their mother, and her  family.


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## Doctor Carrot (Apr 9, 2014)

Cheesypoof said:


> i was thinking about this tragedy and didnt sleep well either Monday or last night. That will make sense to some and sound bonkers to others. It stokes up unsettling feelings in me, for all kinds of reasons. Some are personalbut my strongest is a sadness I feel for a young woman robbed of her life, children robbed of their mother, and her  family.



Have you felt the same in the past when you've read about, say, a 16 year old kid dying from a dodgy pill at a rave? Has that prevented you from sleeping too? Or do you think it's the personal reasons you've alluded to? Not criticising you just wondering why this particular death has affected you this much? 

I guess I just find it interesting how we read about unspeakable horrors in the news on a daily basis, the bomb in Pakistan today for example, and just carry on eating while we're reading it or whatever but the death of a public figure in what are probably far less horrific circumstances affects some people so much. I myself even said 'oh shit Peaches Geldoff died!' and 'that's sad' when I read it but I had no reaction whatsoever to reading about the bomb in Pakistan today.


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## Yelkcub (Apr 9, 2014)

My missus had a very vague connection to her and has received a couple of texts from people 'thinking of you'. It appears that people want to be connected to celebrity and grief and celeb grief even more.


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## Mr Moose (Apr 9, 2014)

Cheesypoof said:


> i was thinking about this tragedy and didnt sleep well either Monday or last night. That will make sense to some and sound bonkers to others. It stokes up unsettling feelings in me, for all kinds of reasons. Some are personal but my strongest is a sadness I feel for a young woman robbed of her life, children robbed of their mother, and her  family.



It's not easy to predict what will set off those feelings. My friend, whose father had recently died suddenly, lost it while watching Inspector Morse cop it a few months later. He knew in a way it was utterly absurd, but it evoked something real.

It's a fundamental emotion grief, always looking to bubble out when you have it.


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## Welsh lad (Apr 9, 2014)

Reading some pretty sick internet jokes on the social media and people questioning those who feel sad for Peaches and her family. Peaches may be a celebrity and we don't personally know her but that does not mean we can't show our sympathy and sadness for her family. 
It is tragic for anyone to die so young and leave behind their children. Bob has been through enough losing his wife and now daughter at such a young age. He may have split opinion as a person but no one can doubt the money he raised for hundreds of thousands of people suffering in poverty in Africa.


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## Orang Utan (Apr 9, 2014)

Welsh lad said:


> no one can doubt the money he raised for hundreds of thousands of people suffering in poverty in Africa.


Oh yes they can


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## Cheesypoof (Apr 9, 2014)

Doctor Carrot said:


> Have you felt the same in the past when you've read about, say, a 16 year old kid dying from a dodgy pill at a rave? Has that prevented you from sleeping too? Or do you think it's the personal reasons you've alluded to?.



I felt strange when Leah Betts died, years ago and the pictures of her in hospital that her parents publicly released disturbed me at the time. ...I think about the death and the way that person died, what caused the death and what they were feeling during the moment of death. It is the process, of being here, and then not here; the brutality and finality of it all. What has upset me most about this death is this: one day you are a 25 year old woman bathing your kids, two weeks later you are under the ground. Like that.

I was also thinking about how she was probably there 24/7 for those kids and now those nippers are crying for her and she is gone. There is a way for those kids to be momentarily distracted, but there is no mother ever again. A child's imperviousness to it all, because of their infancy is all the more tragic. She was probably nursing the younger one, and that child will instinctively wonder where is Mummy? And their two birthdays apparently coming up in April, a cake with a big number 1 on it, a baby blowing out candles, lots of cheering and a vacant space at the table. I dont think she died from a drugs related thing - my guess is a heart attack from bullimia/ dieting. Do these stories of a young person with two children suddenly dying, or bullimia strike a chord with me in my personal life? yes. Would i STILL feel shaken if that weren't a coincidence: absolutely, yes.


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## Pickman's model (Apr 9, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> Oh yes they can


that's your best post this year


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## Pickman's model (Apr 9, 2014)

if i had a pound to donate for every time someone died leaving children behind i'd have given as much away as robert geldof allegedly raised in the 1980s


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## Doctor Carrot (Apr 9, 2014)

Cheesypoof said:


> I felt strange when Leah Betts died, years ago and the pictures of her in hospital that her parents publicly released disturbed me at the time. ...I think about the death and the way that person died, what caused the death and what they were feeling during the moment of death. It is the process, of being here, and then not here; the brutality and finality of it all. What has upset me most about this death is this: one day you are a 25 year old woman bathing your kids, two weeks later you are under the ground. Like that.
> 
> I was also thinking about how she was probably there 24/7 for those kids and now those nippers are crying for her and she is gone. There is a way for those kids to be momentarily distracted, but there is no mother ever again. A child's imperviousness to it all, because of their infancy is all the more tragic. She was probably nursing the younger one, and that child will instinctively wonder where is Mummy? And their two birthdays apparently coming up in April, a cake with a big number 1 on it, a baby blowing out candles, lots of cheering and a vacant space at the table. I was also thinking about her husband in that house, fending for the kids by himself. Being alone in a house after my partner went ahead of their time would really scare me. I dont think she died from a drugs related thing - my guess is a heart attack from bullimia/ dieting. Do these stories of a young person with two children suddenly dying, or bullimia strike a chord with me in my personal life? yes. Would i STILL feel shaken if that werent a coincidence: absolutely, yes.



So is it fair to say that a highly publicised death invokes these feelings? That's quite an in depth thought process you have about it and all undoubtedly true. 

I think what I'm getting at is as a culture we brush death under the carpet, we put it away and make it such a grim business. It is of course grim but I think our culture just puts it off and doesn't have any where near enough of an open discussion about it as we do other things. I think it's a shame that it takes such high profile deaths to make us really think about it and that it affects you, and I'm sure others, in the way it has.  That's why I think that Louis Theroux documentary last week was so important because it showed the whole process of dying for the person actually dying as well as the people that death affects. That did make me cry but in a good way as well as a sad way. It's a fate that awaits all of us I just think we can do better at confronting it and dealing with it than we do at the moment.


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## Cheesypoof (Apr 9, 2014)

Doctor Carrot said:


> So is it fair to say that a highly publicised death invokes these feelings? That's quite an in depth thought process you have about it and all undoubtedly true.
> 
> I think what I'm getting at is as a culture we brush death under the carpet, we put it away and make it such a grim business. It is of course grim but I think our culture just puts it off and doesn't have any where near enough of an open discussion about it as we do other things. I think it's a shame that it takes such high profile deaths to make us really think about it and that it affects you, and I'm sure others, in the way it has.  That's why I think that Louis Theroux documentary last week was so important because it showed the whole process of dying for the person actually dying as well as the people that death affects. That did make me cry but in a good way as well as a sad way. It's a fate that awaits all of us I just think we can do better at confronting it and dealing with it than we do at the moment.



 I think often of death since an Aunt died in 2010 and that was my first brush with death. I reflected on what happens, especially to the body during putrefaction. This was a confrontation, rather than something negative, as you learn more about what actually happens but nothing will prepare you for the real thing.

 Before Christmas i read a book called 'Your loved ones live on within you' for people who were grieving  their loved ones. I hadn't lost anyone at the time, but have since.  I think often of death - its close to life, and thinking about it is not morbid.  Reflecting on death makes you stronger, and more aware of life's preciousness. We should all appreciate that life is SHORT and try to be at peace with ourselves and those around us.


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## Awesome Wells (Apr 9, 2014)

She was so young and seemed a chipper sort. I guess you never really know. So in that sense it is sad.


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## weltweit (Apr 9, 2014)

None of my business, as I have said already, but I would like to know what happened.


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## yardbird (Apr 9, 2014)

When the woman (girl to me) I love died she was 62 and beautiful.
I think of her every day, the thought of her going when she was Peaches age I can't bear to think about.


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## weltweit (Apr 9, 2014)

yardbird said:


> When the woman (girl to me) I love died she was 62 and beautiful.
> I think of her every day, the thought of her going when she was Peaches age I can't bare to think about.


I agree, it is a very tragic event for many people ..


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## Batboy (Apr 9, 2014)

Yelkcub said:


> My missus had a very vague connection to her and has received a couple of texts from people 'thinking of you'. It appears that people want to be connected to celebrity and grief and celeb grief even more.



Some people get off on grief per se it doesn't have to be a celebrity, I have a guy who works for us who seems to go to a funeral every week. His son is an undertaker and he keeps a load of his sons business cards on him. It's quite bizarre. On one occasion he gave a card to my business partner in connection with his Gran, she was at the time still alive, but very ill.... 

On another occasion One of our employees died and we all went to the funeral and I'm sure I saw the undertakers dad in the front seat eating popcorn.

Grief can be addictive.


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## UrbaneFox (Apr 10, 2014)

My friend was really pissed off when a near stranger turned up at her mother's funeral and sobbed noisily throughout.


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## Pickman's model (Apr 10, 2014)

UrbaneFox said:


> My friend was really pissed off when a near stranger turned up at her mother's funeral and sobbed noisily throughout.


a near stranger to her or a near stranger to her mother?


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## Idris2002 (Apr 10, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> a near stranger to her or a near stranger to her mother?



Why not both?


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## Pickman's model (Apr 10, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> Why not both?


why not indeed? but i wondered if it was not both.


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## yardbird (Apr 10, 2014)

I went to John Peel's funeral despite the fact that he was only an acquaintance, not a friend.
I'm glad I did.


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## ViolentPanda (Apr 10, 2014)

Doctor Carrot said:


> Have you felt the same in the past when you've read about, say, a 16 year old kid dying from a dodgy pill at a rave? Has that prevented you from sleeping too? Or do you think it's the personal reasons you've alluded to? Not criticising you just wondering why this particular death has affected you this much?



I had a mate who died during one of the "bad smack" epidemics here in the south in the '80s (too pure compared to what he was used to jacking), and I *still* get the same feelings of horror when I hear about similar happening, even now.  That's not horror at his death, because he was very obviously on the road to Hell, but horror at leaving his girlfriend and kid behind, alone in the world.  I think that's why I still feel disturbed by similar _reportage_ 30-odd years later - that more kids and partners are being bereaved, and going through who-knows-what.



> I guess I just find it interesting how we read about unspeakable horrors in the news on a daily basis, the bomb in Pakistan today for example, and just carry on eating while we're reading it or whatever but the death of a public figure in what are probably far less horrific circumstances affects some people so much. I myself even said 'oh shit Peaches Geldoff died!' and 'that's sad' when I read it but I had no reaction whatsoever to reading about the bomb in Pakistan today.



IMO most people can't really relate to a bomb anywhere, let alone halfway around the world.  For most people, the most they experience about bombs is what they see on TV, mediated by journos and/or film-makers - they don't experience the reality of it.
With people dying for what appears to be no reason, I think we're all a bit closer to it - we all know someone who died before their time, for whatever reason, leaving their family behind.  We ralate to it "better" because it's more real - more immediate - to us.


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## UrbaneFox (Apr 10, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> a near stranger to her or a near stranger to her mother?


They cross examined her after the funeral, and it was both. I wondered if she had had a clandestine lesbian affair with Anna's mum for years, and felt unable to openly express her love and grief.

Anna failed to ask if that was the case, and I suspect she she was more like Batboy's employee.


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## girasol (Apr 10, 2014)

Interesting turn of events, from DM, sorry, allegedly Peaches' diet used to be so unhealthy, her blood pressure was no good, her doctor told her so. she then started extreme dieting ... To be healthy. So there's another, pretty plausible theory.


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## Pickman's model (Apr 10, 2014)

girasol said:


> Interesting turn of events, from DM, sorry, allegedky Peaches diet used to be so unhealthy, her blood pressure was no good, she then started extreme dieting ... To be healthy. So there's another, pretty plausible theory.


but it's from the dm which undermines it somewhat


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## girasol (Apr 10, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> but it's from the dm which undermines it somewhat



Yup


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## UrbaneFox (Apr 10, 2014)

yardbird said:


> I went to John Peel's funeral despite the fact that he was only an acquaintanc e, not a friend.
> I'm glad I did.


I'm planning to bust my way into Clive James's funeral, whenever that may be. He looked done for on Newsnight last night, so I shall get in touch with my friend who once worked on Saturday Night Clive and see what he can do.


----------



## spanglechick (Apr 10, 2014)

UrbaneFox said:


> I'm planning to bust my way into Clive James's funeral, whenever that may be. He looked done for on Newsnight last night, so I shall get in touch with my friend who once worked on Saturday Night Clive and see what he can do.


why?


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 10, 2014)

UrbaneFox said:


> I'm planning to bust my way into Clive James's funeral, whenever that may be. He looked done for on Newsnight last night, so I shall get in touch with my friend who once worked on Saturday Night Clive and see what he can do.


you want your friend to kill clive james?


----------



## UrbaneFox (Apr 12, 2014)

spanglechick said:


> why?


Just for the hell of it.


----------



## SaskiaJayne (Apr 12, 2014)

Nobody needs to be invited to a funeral, a death is announced along with time & place of funeral & anybody who wants to go can do that. Relatives of the deceased won't know all the deceased friends or aquaintances/work colleauges, so usual form is to announce death in local paper along with funeral time/place


----------



## goldenecitrone (Apr 12, 2014)

I remember a Victoria Coren article about a group of funeral freeloaders who were turning up at funerals around London. Strange people.


----------



## Orang Utan (Apr 12, 2014)

goldenecitrone said:


> I remember a Victoria Coren article about a group of funeral freeloaders who were turning up at funerals around London. Strange people.


The Jolley Gang.
One of them choked to death on a canapé.
Ha!


----------



## madamv (Apr 12, 2014)

Big, celeb, paparazzi laden funerals have guest lists.  Mostly for respect of the chief mourners.


----------



## goldenecitrone (Apr 12, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> The Jolley Gang.
> One of them choked to death on a canapé.
> Ha!



So he did. 



> Three weeks ago, the Jolley Gang gatecrashed a party at the Dorchester to celebrate the national day of Kuwait. They mingled with Kuwaiti dignitaries. They enjoyed drinks provided by the Kuwaiti ambassador. And one of them, Alan MacDonald, choked to death on a canapé.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Apr 12, 2014)

> How did you get there, Alan? You were 61 years old. A retired banker from a smart family. You had every chance. What attracted you to a fat fraudster like Terence Jolley? How did you feel, mingling at parties where you weren't invited?
> 
> What took you down that path which led to your final collapse, in a crowd of baffled strangers, on a mouthful of blagged canapé?
> 
> You were unmarried and childless; were you lonely? Your father, a vice-admiral, had been a royal aide; did you feel an entitlement to every circle? Or were you just bored



Some of life's deeper questions.


----------



## Ponyutd (Apr 12, 2014)

When's his funeral? I'm going to that....see how he likes it!


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Apr 12, 2014)

Every once in awhile, something reminds that the British character can be brilliantly sublime.


----------



## Sirena (Apr 12, 2014)

girasol said:


> Interesting turn of events, from DM, sorry, allegedly Peaches' diet used to be so unhealthy, her blood pressure was no good, her doctor told her so. she then started extreme dieting ... To be healthy. So there's another, pretty plausible theory.



There's another wildly speculative theory.  The occult angle....

I know so many people who have joined the O.T.O. or been thelemic who have died long before their time.  Gerald Suster, well-known and well-loved, died at 47 and his wife of the sameish age died six months later.  As well as them, there are the ongoing heroin junkies (of which I know three or four) and even the most senior thelemite in the country suffered 2-3 years of crippling ME after having performed a pivotal Crowley ritual.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 13, 2014)

Sirena said:


> There's another wildly speculative theory.  The occult angle....
> 
> I know so many people who have joined the O.T.O. or been thelemic who have died long before their time.  Gerald Suster, well-known and well-loved, died at 47 and his wife of the sameish age died six months later.  As well as them, there are the ongoing heroin junkies (of which I know three or four) and even the most senior thelemite in the country suffered 2-3 years of crippling ME after having performed a pivotal Crowley ritual.



TBF Gerald had spent the preceding 25 years pickling his liver, and his intake went up markedly after he was monstered by the redtops and was asked to leave his job.  That wasn't anything to do with Crowley, just plenty to do with his own fondness for beer and brandy, and the predeliction of redtops for occult "scandal".


----------



## ibilly99 (Apr 13, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> The Jolley Gang.
> One of them choked to death on a canapé.
> Ha!



Thanks for the heads up - that was a good read.

http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2008/dec/21/celebrity-victoria-coren

As was her follow up - she got two great stories out of these characters.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2010/mar/21/victoria-coren-jolley-gang


----------



## treelover (Apr 13, 2014)

Batboy said:


> Some people get off on grief per se it doesn't have to be a celebrity, I have a guy who works for us who seems to go to a funeral every week. His son is an undertaker and he keeps a load of his sons business cards on him. It's quite bizarre. On one occasion he gave a card to my business partner in connection with his Gran, she was at the time still alive, but very ill....
> 
> On another occasion One of our employees died and we all went to the funeral and I'm sure I saw the undertakers dad in the front seat eating popcorn.
> 
> Grief can be addictive.




are you making this up?


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 13, 2014)

Sirena said:


> There's another wildly speculative theory.  The occult angle....
> 
> I know so many people who have joined the O.T.O. or been thelemic who have died long before their time.  Gerald Suster, well-known and well-loved, died at 47 and his wife of the sameish age died six months later.  As well as them, there are the ongoing heroin junkies (of which I know three or four) and even the most senior thelemite in the country suffered 2-3 years of crippling ME after having performed a pivotal Crowley ritual.


so there's a couple of people who've died relatively young. what about e.g. crowley? what about israel regardie? what about kenneth grant? two deaths and one alleged bout of me does not a trend make.

here's another wildly speculative angle: the occult angle is utter bollocks.


----------



## Sirena (Apr 13, 2014)

She died on the eve of the 110th anniversary of the receipt of the Book of the Law.

That has to be conclusive


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 13, 2014)

Sirena said:


> She died on the eve of the 110th anniversary of the receipt of the Book of the Law.
> 
> That has to be conclusive


yeh, conclusive proof it's bollocks. 777th? ok. 110th? i don't think so


----------



## Sirena (Apr 13, 2014)

{Kappa-Epsilon-Phi-Alpha-Lambda-Eta Delta}
PEACHES
Soft and hollow, how thou dost overcome the hard and full!
It dies, it gives itself; to Thee is the fruit!
Be thou the Bride; thou shalt be the Mother here-after.
To all impressions thus.  Let them not overcome thee;
yet let them breed within thee.  The least of the impressions, come to its perfection, is Pan.
Receive a thousand lovers; thou shalt bear but One  Child.
This child shall be the heir of Fate the Father.

COMMENTARY ({Delta})
Daleth is the Empress of the Tarot, the letter of Venus, and the title, Peaches, again refers to the Yoni. The chapter is a counsel to accept all impressions;  it is the formula of the Scarlet woman; but no impression must be allowed to dominate you, only to fructify you;  just as the artist, seeing an object, does not worship it,  but breeds a masterpiece from it.  This process is exhibited as one aspect of the Great Work.  The last two paragraphs may have some reference to the 13th  Aethyr (see The Vision and The Voice).


----------



## Cheesypoof (Apr 13, 2014)

As I mentioned earlier, Peaches Geldof used to appear on Ireland's chat shows occasionally, and seemed like a decent person. Brendan O'Connor recalls her appearances on his show here

http://www.independent.ie/woman/cel...-tragically-meet-its-bitter-end-30180751.html


----------



## ruffneck23 (Apr 13, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh, conclusive proof it's bollocks. 777th? ok. 110th? i don't think so



93rd ?


----------



## Batboy (Apr 14, 2014)

treelover said:


> are you making this up?



Nope.. All true. We had to pull him up and tell him off after he gave out his sons business cards which was both insensitive and stupid. The popcorn is a metaphor for his behaviour. But it is true he loves nothing more than a funeral, quite bizarre, I know


----------



## Batboy (Apr 14, 2014)

Batboy said:


> Nope.. All true. We had to pull him up and tell him off after he gave out his sons business cards which was both insensitive and stupid


----------



## ibilly99 (Apr 14, 2014)

Batboy said:


> Nope.. All true. We had to pull him up and tell him off after he gave out his sons business cards which was both insensitive and stupid. The popcorn is a metaphor for his behaviour. But it is true he loves nothing more than a funeral, quite bizarre, I know



Reminds me a bit of Harold and Maude a most lovely and moving film about a rich young kid who falls in love with a old dying woman when they meet at their shared love of gatecrashing stranger's funerals.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 14, 2014)

you get better food and drink gatecrashing weddings.


----------



## Greebo (Apr 14, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> so there's a couple of people who've died relatively young. what about e.g. crowley? what about israel regardie? what about kenneth grant? two deaths and one alleged bout of me does not a trend make.<snip>


Agreed.  If you really want an occult deaths link, look at the one between frequent use of incense indoors and emphysema (aka bronchial asthma).


----------



## Sirena (Apr 14, 2014)

Greebo said:


> Agreed.  If you really want an occult deaths link, look at the one between frequent use of incense indoors and emphysema (aka bronchial asthma).


If you read Dion Fortune's 'The Sea Priestess', asthma is almost de rigueur for magickal heroes....


----------



## Greebo (Apr 14, 2014)

Sirena said:


> If you read Dion Fortune's 'The Sea Priestess', asthma is almost de rigueur for magickal heroes....


Read it several years ago.  The *ahem* breath-taking qualities of incense are also mentioned in High Magick's Aid; the characters end up leaning out of the nearest window and gasping for air more than once after yet another ritual.  </derail>

Still as, a conspiracy theory collector was fond of saying: If an explanation fits very neatly and makes a lot of sense, it's probably been made up.


----------



## UrbaneFox (Apr 14, 2014)

I wonder how much Peaches earned from being a celebrity, excluding goody bags and free clothes.

The DWP should encourage more claimants to become famous. I might try it myself.

PS Is it too early to speculate on such matters? I hope that I have not offended any members of U75.


----------



## Dogsauce (Apr 14, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> you get better food and drink gatecrashing weddings.



Corporate recruitment events at universities have a good reputation too.

A couple of pissheads I used to know here in Leeds would occasionally turn up at gigs in the evening wearing suits and barely able to stand, having spent the afternoon/early evening being entertained at the expense of BAE Systems or others of that ilk in the Mechanical Engineering Dept over the road. Neither had ever been students there.


----------



## Cheesypoof (Apr 20, 2014)

This really is sad....she was a good Mum.....

http://www.motherandbaby.co.uk/2014/04/peaches-geldof-1989-2014


----------



## mrs quoad (Apr 20, 2014)

ibilly99 said:


> Reminds me a bit of Harold and Maude a most lovely and moving film about a rich young kid who falls in love with a old dying woman when they meet at their shared love of gatecrashing stranger's funerals.


"Dying" seems like a deeply misplaced description of anything Maude is, until very shortly before she's dead.


----------



## ibilly99 (Apr 20, 2014)

correct Mrs Quoad . correct !


----------



## Celt (May 1, 2014)

http://www.nydailynews.com/entertai...died-heroin-overdose-report-article-1.1774669


----------



## Doctor Carrot (May 1, 2014)

Was just coming to post this. What a waste


----------



## Cheesypoof (May 1, 2014)

Yeh, I'm still upset about this. If its heroin, that's so sad.


----------



## skyscraper101 (May 1, 2014)

Blimey (if true). I didn't have her down as a heroin user.


----------



## Part 2 (May 1, 2014)

DM also reporting this. I can only imagine the gleeful look on Katie Hopkins face.


----------



## trashpony (May 1, 2014)

In retrospect, I'm now thinking her glazed and vacant appearance when I saw her may have been why she wasn't holding her baby.


----------



## xsunnysuex (May 1, 2014)

My best friends son died from a heroin overdose.  He was 21.  Horrible drug.


----------



## Awesome Wells (May 1, 2014)

Chip Barm said:


> DM also reporting this. I can only imagine the gleeful look on Katie Hopkins face.


With her nose, she can fuck off if she's going to take the higher ground on drugs!


----------



## phildwyer (May 1, 2014)

Several years ago, on these boards, I started a thread entitled "Is Peaches Geldof A Junkie?" 

I suspected the truth even then.  So now I wonder why others did not.  In any case it is very sad.


----------



## Barking_Mad (May 1, 2014)

Curiously, reports that the drugs equipment was not found and may have been removed. I wonder if they are going to look into it again?


----------



## brogdale (May 1, 2014)

Barking_Mad said:


> Curiously, reports that the drugs equipment was not found and may have been removed. I wonder if they are going to look into it again?


 Not that curious, really.


----------



## Barking_Mad (May 1, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Several years ago, on these boards, I started a thread entitled "Is Peaches Geldof A Junkie?"
> 
> I suspected the truth even then.  So now I wonder why others did not.  In any case it is very sad.



From that thread

Is Peaches Geldof a Junkie?


----------



## Barking_Mad (May 1, 2014)

brogdale said:


> Not that curious, really.



oh, ok if you say so.


----------



## phildwyer (May 1, 2014)

Barking_Mad said:


> From that thread
> 
> Is Peaches Geldof a Junkie?


 
Amazing innit.  They _refused_ to believe me, even when the evidence was quite literally STARING THEM IN THE FACE.  There is simply no reasoning with some people.

I take no satisfaction in being proved right, and I wish I'd been wrong.  But next time I say something I hope people will listen.  FFS.


----------



## mrsfran (May 1, 2014)

phildwyer Every day, in every way, you prove yourself to be a dick. You're bloody thrilled to have your idle speculation accidentally coincide with the truth.


----------



## mwgdrwg (May 1, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Several years ago, on these boards, I started a thread entitled "Is Peaches Geldof A Junkie?"
> 
> I suspected the truth even then.  So now I wonder why others did not.  In any case it is very sad.



Have a cigar.


----------



## brogdale (May 1, 2014)

mwgdrwg said:


> Have a cigar.


 Are there not some forum points for such prescience?


----------



## RedDragon (May 1, 2014)

Why not wait for the inquest report before sticking in the boot.

Whatever way we judge it, it's profoundly sad.


----------



## Orang Utan (May 1, 2014)

How come he's back? I thought he was banned


----------



## phildwyer (May 1, 2014)

mrsfran said:


> phildwyer Every day, in every way, you prove yourself to be a dick. You're bloody thrilled to have your idle speculation accidentally coincide with the truth.


 
I really don't think this is the right thread for you to exercise your silly personal grudges.  Have some respect please.


----------



## phildwyer (May 1, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> How come he's back? I thought he was banned


 
Who?


----------



## Thora (May 1, 2014)

Very upsetting to think she was doing that while alone with her baby too.  While it's not surprising she used drugs, I find the circumstances she died in quite surprising.


----------



## phildwyer (May 1, 2014)

Thora said:


> Very upsetting to think she was doing that while alone with her baby too.  While it's not surprising she used drugs, I find the circumstances she died in quite surprising.


 
People repeat the mistakes of their parents so often, and so precisely, that it frequently seems inevitable.  And this is doubly true with regard to substance abuse.  One compulsion heaped upon another.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (May 1, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> People repeat the mistakes of their parents so often, and so precisely, that it frequently seems inevitable.  And this is doubly true with regard to substance abuse.  One compulsion heaped upon another.


you are sooooo full of shit.


----------



## phildwyer (May 1, 2014)

littlebabyjesus said:


> you are sooooo full of shit.


 
Seeing as I've just been _*proved*_ _*100% correct*_, I think I'm justified in asking you to expand upon that observation.


----------



## ddraig (May 1, 2014)

fuck off phil 
fucks sake


----------



## Doctor Carrot (May 1, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> I take no satisfaction in being proved right, and I wish I'd been wrong.  But next time I say something I hope people will listen.  FFS.



Christ do you not see how unbelievably arrogant you are? Ya know I've been coming here over ten years and often thought you get far too much shit off people on here, borderline bullied in fact. Then other times I think the shit you get from people here is richly deserved and this is one of those times. 

'Oh look at me I was right I was right....err....I take no satisfaction in being right but hur hur look at me I was right' what a dick.


----------



## Lemon Eddy (May 1, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> People repeat the mistakes of their parents so often, and so precisely, that it frequently seems inevitable.



From this should I assume that your parents were massive bell ends, or are you evidence that sometimes people's mistakes are of their own making?


----------



## phildwyer (May 1, 2014)

Doctor Carrot said:


> Christ do you not see how unbelievably arrogant you are? Ya know I've been coming here over ten years and often thought you get far too much shit off people on here, borderline bullied in fact. Then other times I think the shit you get from people here is richly deserved and this is one of those times.
> 
> 'Oh look at me I was right I was right....err....I take no satisfaction in being right but hur hur look at me I was right' what a dick.


 
Well you do have a point tbh.  But then again is the hypocritical pretence of personal sympathy for the tribulations of celebrities really all that better, morally speaking?  I'm not so sure that it is.


----------



## Ax^ (May 1, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> People repeat the mistakes of their parents so often, and so precisely, that it frequently seems inevitable.



so we can take it your old man is an asshat as well


----------



## Orang Utan (May 1, 2014)

ddraig said:


> fuck off phil
> fucks sake


Do not give it oxygen


----------



## ffsear (May 1, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Several years ago, on these boards, I started a thread entitled "Is Peaches Geldof A Junkie?"
> 
> I suspected the truth even then.  So now I wonder why others did not.  In any case it is very sad.




Problem is,  you know fuck all about what your talking about.

There's recreational drug use that turns into irresponsible abuse.   Then there's self medicating to mask issues such as depression or anxiety or about 100 other things.  Peaches Geldof was the latter.

Throwing the word "junkie" about confirms noting.


----------



## Doctor Carrot (May 1, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Well you do have a point tbh.  But then again is the hypocritical pretence of personal sympathy for the tribulations of celebrities really all that better, morally speaking?  I'm not so sure that it is.



What?

You were idly speculating four years ago and by a sheer stroke of luck it coincides with the truth as mrsfran  pointed out.  People having sympathy with someone who's actually died of a heroin overdose (apparently, it is afterall not 100% certain) is not hypocritical and doesn't compare in anyway to your idle speculating.  I don't even know why hypocrisy needs bringing in here. You weren't being a hypocrite four years ago you were idly speculating and now you're gloating. None of that coincides with being a hypocrite it coincides with something else that you've had spelt out to you far too many times on here.


----------



## phildwyer (May 1, 2014)

ffsear said:


> There's recreational drug use that turns into irresponsible abuse.   Then there's self medicating to mask issues such as depression or anxiety or about 100 other things.  Peaches Geldof was the latter.


 
How do you know?  To me the evidence suggests the contrary.


----------



## phildwyer (May 1, 2014)

Doctor Carrot said:


> You were idly speculating four years ago


 
But it _wasn't _idle speculation, was it?  As it turned out.


----------



## Doctor Carrot (May 1, 2014)

You obviously can't help yourself can you? I'm not gonna give you any more of what you crave.


----------



## 5t3IIa (May 1, 2014)

What's wrong with you people? Just because Phil said it doesn't mean it's wrong  He was quite clearly 100% correct. The coroner agrees.


----------



## Fedayn (May 1, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> People repeat the mistakes of their parents so often, and so precisely, that it frequently seems inevitable.  And this is doubly true with regard to substance abuse.  One compulsion heaped upon another.



Your parents must have made some huge mistakes then. Well they made at least one....


----------



## phildwyer (May 1, 2014)

5t3IIa said:


> He was quite clearly 100% correct.


 
Well I was, wasn't I?  Nothing wrong with pointing that out.  Just noting the fact.


----------



## ddraig (May 1, 2014)

5t3IIa said:


> What's wrong with you people? Just because Phil said it doesn't mean it's wrong  He was quite clearly 100% correct. The coroner agrees.


ai but then you are a bit of a knob on here too


----------



## Crispy (May 1, 2014)

How about having the bunfight on his thread instead of this one?


----------



## 5t3IIa (May 1, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Well I was, wasn't I?  Nothing wrong with pointing that out.



Yes. And these recent posts from 'Doctor' Carrot and d'dr'aig are bizarre - it's like arguing Ipswich didn't win the 1978 FA Cup. It's on wikipedia and everything


----------



## phildwyer (May 1, 2014)

Doctor Carrot said:


> You weren't being a hypocrite four years ago


 
Well thanks for that at least.

And to be honest, I do see the point you're making.  But the fact remains that, faced with the choice between insincere expostulations of grief and petty message-board point-scoring, I find the latter about ten million times preferable to the former, ethically speaking.

How about you?


----------



## goldenecitrone (May 1, 2014)

If people had listened to phil, Peaches might be alive today, you stupid cunts.


----------



## phildwyer (May 1, 2014)

5t3IIa said:


> Yes. And these recent posts from 'Doctor' Carrot and d'dr'aig are bizarre - it's like arguing Ipswich didn't win the 1978 FA Cup. It's on wikipedia and everything


 
I know.  It's like denying the moon-landing.  But facts are stubborn things.


----------



## Orang Utan (May 1, 2014)

FTR, Peaches Geldof has not been proven to be a 'junkie'.


----------



## phildwyer (May 1, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> FTR, Peaches Geldof has not been proven to be a 'junkie'.


 
Wot?


----------



## brogdale (May 1, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Seeing as I've just been _*proved*_ _*100% correct*_, I think I'm justified in asking you to expand upon that observation.



That's where the thread went wrong. There now appears to be some evidence that Phil's previous supposition of Peaches' heroin abuse was well founded, (not 100%  proved...but hey), but LBJ's accusation that he is full of shit seemed to be as a response to Phil's assertion that Peaches' assumed addictive personality disorder was an inheritable predisposition. I understand that such a view is debatable?


----------



## phildwyer (May 1, 2014)

brogdale said:


> That's where the thread went wrong. There now appears to be some evidence that Phil's previous supposition of Peaches' heroin abuse was well founded, (not 100%  proved...but hey), but LBJ's accusation that he is full of shit seemed to be as a response to Phil's assertion that Peaches' assumed addictive personality disorder was an inheritable predisposition. I understand that such a view is debatable?


 
Yes, it is debateable.

In that debate, I incline strongly towards the view that addictive tendencies are very frequently passed from parents to children.  This does *not *of course mean that they are inheritable in any biological sense, a proposition that I deplore.

As evidence for the inheritable nature of addictive behavior I adduce the cases of Paula and Peaches.  Their deaths are too similar in mode and circumstance for us to ascribe it to chance.

Indeed, some have noted that Peaches posted a "pic" to the "web" showing Paula and herself together very shortly before her demise, suggesting an element of conscious imitation.

Personally however, I believe that such compulsions are *always* invisible to those who suffer from them, no matter how obvious they may appear to outsiders.


----------



## Cheesypoof (May 1, 2014)

OU is right - there is a VAST difference between someone being a 'junkie' (what an ugly word) so lets say addict with a habit - and a former user who had a slip up. That could be the case with Peaches Geldof. Sadly, you cannot take ANY risks with using heroin as there is always a chance it will kill you.


----------



## Orang Utan (May 1, 2014)

Has the cause of death even been announced in the inquest yet?


----------



## Cheesypoof (May 1, 2014)

no, I think its this afternoon.


----------



## phildwyer (May 1, 2014)

Cheesypoof said:


> OU is right - there is a VAST difference between someone being a 'junkie' (what an ugly word) so lets say addict with a habit - and a former user who had a slip up. That could be the case with Peaches Geldof.


 
It is true that overdoses often befall former users who have "kicked" the "habit" for a period, before imprudently resuming injecting at their previous "dose," thus failing to take account of the decrease in tolerance occasioned by even short-term abstinence.

In this case however, consistent reports over the past four years point to a different pattern.


----------



## brogdale (May 1, 2014)

I would imagine that the OB will interested to question the friend that Cohen sent to check up on his wife...seems highly likely that they cleared up any evidence.


----------



## Sprocket. (May 1, 2014)

I find this gloating over the tragic death of a young mother to prove a point quite nauseating!


----------



## mrsfran (May 1, 2014)

5t3IIa said:


> What's wrong with you people? Just because Phil said it doesn't mean it's wrong  He was quite clearly 100% correct. The coroner agrees.



What's the correct response to one's idle speculation four years ago subsequently turning out to be true when a young mother dies? Is it "Oh dear, I wish I hadn't been right about this" or is it "Oh look, I got it right! I'm so clever and everyone should listen to me from now on! Look at how right I was!" ?


----------



## phildwyer (May 1, 2014)

Sprocket. said:


> I find this gloating over the tragic death of a young mother to prove a point quite nauseating!


 
Let me just advance a few serious (seriously) points here, then I'll leave you to mourn in peace.

1.  Expressing grief over the death of a celebrity unknown to you is insincere.

2.  Feeling grief over the death of a celebrity unknown to you is crazy.

3.  Those who claim to feel, or who actually feel, grief over the death of a celebrity unknown to them are frequently the most lacking in affect towards the flesh-and-blood human beings they actually *do *know.

4.  The emotions some people now experience, or claim to experience, or believe that they experience, with regard to celebrities is somehow crowding out, distorting and even destroying the emotions they feel about real-life people.

5.  This all started with the death of Diana, when for weeks it was practically illegal to express anything othr than profound grief and sorrow.

6.  I call this "emotional totalitarianism."

7.  Emotional totalitarianism bespeaks the death of the human soul.


----------



## DotCommunist (May 1, 2014)

thats a big leap in steps1-7


----------



## littlebabyjesus (May 1, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> 5.  This all started with the death of Diana, when for weeks it was practically illegal to express anything othr than profound grief and sorrow.


Were you even in Britain when that happened? Plenty of people didn't give two shits.


----------



## phildwyer (May 1, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> thats a big leap in steps1-7


 
You really think so?

You really think it's a big leap from people expriencing--sincerely, actually expriencing--the most tender and precious of human emotions in relation to celebrities who they do not know and who could not give a tinker's cuss about them to the death of the human soul?

I don't think it's a leap at all.  In fact I think they're _the same thing._


----------



## phildwyer (May 1, 2014)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Were you even in Britain when that happened? Plenty of people didn't give two shits.


 
Part of the time I was, yes.  Of course plenty of people didn't give two shits.  My point is that nobody could *say *they didn't give two shits, at least not in public.

Emotional totalitarianism, see.  Pernicious and soul-destroying.


----------



## Cheesypoof (May 1, 2014)

I find nothing strange at all about being upset about the death of Peaches Geldof, or any other 'young' person. VP made a good point earlier that you may not personally know these people, but can certainly feel affected by the tragedy of their story. I imagine when John Lennon was murdered plenty of his fans were pretty upset too...


----------



## Sprocket. (May 1, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Let me just advance a few serious (seriously) points here, then I'll leave you to mourn in peace.



What are you taking?
I am not grieving for no one.
I am just being human.
Do you have pigeons flying about in your head?


----------



## phildwyer (May 1, 2014)

Cheesypoof said:


> I find nothing strange at all about being upset about the death of Peaches Geldof, or any other 'young' person.


 
It depends what you mean by "upset." 

Naturally such deaths are a matter of regret.  But I think that anyone whose emotions on hearing of the death of a celebrity are in any way comparable to those they would feel on hearing of the death of a loved one is a psychopath (and that's not a term I use lightly).


----------



## phildwyer (May 1, 2014)

Sprocket. said:


> I am just being human.


 
No you're not.


----------



## ffsear (May 1, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Let me just advance a few serious (seriously) points here, then I'll leave you to mourn in peace.
> 
> 1.  Expressing grief over the death of a celebrity unknown to you is insincere.
> 
> ...




SO i'm nuts for getting upset when Ayrton Senna died?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (May 1, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> It depends what you mean by "upset."
> 
> Naturally such deaths are a matter of regret.  But I think that anyone whose emotions on hearing of the death of a celebrity are in any way comparable to those they would feel on hearing of the death of a loved one is a psychopath (and that's not a term I use *correctly*).


----------



## Sprocket. (May 1, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> No you're not.



Okay, I respect your psychotic opinion.


----------



## Sprocket. (May 1, 2014)

ffsear said:


> SO i'm nuts for getting upset when Ayrton Senna died?



Many people are still upset about the death of Jesus of Nazareth.


----------



## phildwyer (May 1, 2014)

Sprocket. said:


> Many people are still upset about the death of Jesus of Nazareth.


 
No they're not.  And could you leave this thread now please?  You don't really seem to have much to contribute here, and there are plenty of other interesting threads that might be more your level.


----------



## Sprocket. (May 1, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> No they're not.  And could you leave this thread now please?  You don't really seem to have much to contribute here, and there are plenty of other interesting threads that might be more your level.



Oh alright then.


----------



## phildwyer (May 1, 2014)

Sprocket. said:


> Oh alright then.


 
Ta.  You can come back tomorrow.


----------



## Orang Utan (May 1, 2014)

Don't argue with him.
There's an interesting debate to be had about this, but not with him.
In fact, it's already been had on this very thread. Why go over it again for the benefit of a troll?


----------



## ffsear (May 1, 2014)

Sprocket. said:


> Many people are still upset about the death of Jesus of Nazareth.




True,  but under his "criteria" it all started with Diana,  so i'm guessing those are void under his psychotic rules!


----------



## Sprocket. (May 1, 2014)

ffsear said:


> True,  but under your "criteria" it all started with Diana,  so i'm guessing those a void under you psychotic rules!



What? Have you replied to the wrong post perhaps?


----------



## ffsear (May 1, 2014)

yep!   edited!


----------



## Sprocket. (May 1, 2014)

Sprocket. said:


> What? Have you replied to the wrong post perhaps?



Soory read that without glasses and a spaniel trying to nick my jam buttie!


----------



## likesfish (May 1, 2014)

When I heard the news my response was fuck she was only young and got on with my life.
 Much like most news of deaths on the tv


----------



## littlebabyjesus (May 1, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> Don't argue with him.
> There's an interesting debate to be had about this, but not with him.
> In fact, it's already been had on this very thread. Why go over it again for the benefit of a troll?


Yes, you are right.


----------



## scifisam (May 1, 2014)

So it's wrong to be interested enough in a celebrity to be sad when they die, but it's not wrong to be interested enough to start a thread about whether they take drugs, then later gloat when said celebrity dies from a drug overdose. IOW, compassion is wrong but rumour-mongering and gloating is fine.


----------



## Nylock (May 1, 2014)

Engaging Dwyer is only going to enable him to do what he does best: being a tedious bore.


----------



## ffsear (May 1, 2014)

His lack of empathy worries me!

Take the test!

http://vistriai.com/psychopathtest/


----------



## Nylock (May 1, 2014)

ffsear said:


> His lack of empathy worries me!
> 
> Take the test!
> 
> http://vistriai.com/psychopathtest/


His lack of empathy is, in all likelihood, due him playing internets with you all. He's like that other tedious twat gunneradt -except gunner believed the shit he was spouting.


----------



## Dr_Herbz (May 1, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Well I was, wasn't I?  Nothing wrong with pointing that out.  Just noting gloating the fact.



Fixed that for ya


----------



## phildwyer (May 1, 2014)

scifisam said:


> So it's wrong to be interested enough in a celebrity to be sad when they die, but it's not wrong to be interested enough to start a thread about whether they take drugs, then later gloat when said celebrity dies from a drug overdose. IOW, compassion is wrong but rumour-mongering and gloating is fine.


 
If you find yourself becoming emtionally involved with the celebrities you see in the media, you are in serious trouble.  You are being exploited by enormous, powerful and intelligent forces that will quite happily suck all of your genuine, personal emotion away, returning it to you in a dehumanized, commodified form that will render you incapable of forming any emotional attachment to a real human being.


----------



## Sprocket. (May 1, 2014)

ffsear said:


> His lack of empathy worries me!
> 
> Take the test!
> 
> http://vistriai.com/psychopathtest/



I got 9, they obviously fell for it!


----------



## Citizen66 (May 1, 2014)

Orang Utan said:
			
		

> Why go over it again for the benefit of a troll?



Because they love arguing with trolls. See the 'ladies' thread.


----------



## scifisam (May 1, 2014)

I'm stopping this arguing with a troll now. Might as well ignore the entirety of Urban for a few days now Dwyer's back - I could ignore him, but it's pointless, because others won't, and he'll just pollute every thread.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (May 1, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> If you find yourself becoming emtionally involved with the celebrities you see in the media, you are in serious trouble.



I do agree with most of what you assert regarding people mourning celebs they've never met. However I was quite upset at the news of Sue Townsend's demise, not for her, but it meant the death of Adrian Mole, we grew up together, yet he's not even real. Fucked up world.


----------



## goldenecitrone (May 1, 2014)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> I do agree with most of what you assert regarding people mourning celebs they've never met. However I was quite upset at the news of Sue Townsend's demise, not for her, but it meant the death of Adrian Mole, we grew up together, yet he's not even real. Fucked up world.


 
Hazel at the end of Watership Down. Jesus.


----------



## sim667 (May 1, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> If you find yourself becoming emtionally involved with the celebrities you see in the media, you are in serious trouble.  You are being exploited by enormous, powerful and intelligent forces that will quite happily suck all of your genuine, personal emotion away, returning it to you in a dehumanized, *commodified form that will render you incapable of forming any emotional attachment to a real human being*.


 
Says someone who starts arguments on the internet for a hobby.


----------



## phildwyer (May 1, 2014)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> I do agree with most of what you assert regarding people mourning celebs they've never met. However I was quite upset at the news of Sue Townsend's demise, not for her, but it meant the death of Adrian Mole, we grew up together, yet he's not even real. Fucked up world.


 
Actually I think it's quite normal to mourn the death of a fictional character.  At least it shows you know what fiction is.

The trouble with those who get emotionally involved with celebrities is that they *don't* know what fiction is.  They have lost sight of the difference between fact and fantasy.  They identify with celebrities as if they were their real-life friends.

The emotional devastation this must wreak on their real lives can only be guessed at.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (May 1, 2014)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> I do agree with most of what you assert regarding people mourning celebs they've never met. However I was quite upset at the news of Sue Townsend's demise, not for her, but it meant the death of Adrian Mole, we grew up together, yet he's not even real. Fucked up world.


If someone who did stuff you liked dies, you're allowed to be upset, ffs.


----------



## brogdale (May 1, 2014)

scifisam said:


> So it's wrong to be interested enough in a celebrity to be sad when they die, but it's not wrong to be interested enough to start a thread about whether they take drugs, then later gloat when said celebrity dies from a drug overdose. IOW, compassion is wrong but rumour-mongering and gloating is fine.


 Whilst I share some of Phil's analysis of sleb commodification, you make a very good point. If Phil were genuinely immune to the "_powerful and intelligent forces_" of sleb media, why would he start a thread on Peaches' supposed drug habit by articulating _*fear *_for her well-being. Appears to be some contradiction in his position.


----------



## Sprocket. (May 1, 2014)

I would be quite upset if phil died.

More so if someone off urban got sent down for it!


----------



## peterkro (May 1, 2014)

The true tragedy of this is that under the policy for drug users in the sixties she would have had a diamorphine script and may well have raised her children and gone on to live to a ripe old age whilst still using.But oh no they stopped it and made people go to that black-market resulting in deaths and misery all around.


----------



## Lemon Eddy (May 1, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> thats a big leap in steps1-7



A leap implies a movement in one direction.  That meandering bollocks is more akin to drunken musings.


----------



## xenon (May 1, 2014)

.





phildwyer said:


> Let me just advance a few serious (seriously) points here, then I'll leave you to mourn in peace.
> 
> 1.  Expressing grief over the death of a celebrity unknown to you is insincere.
> 
> ...



1. Speculating on the private life of a celebrity unknown to you is prurient.

2. Instigating and indulging in a lengthy examination and discussion of same is weird and unhealthy.

3. Using latter revelations concerning a tragedy to demonstrate some ego boosting point, is sad and pathetic


(Although I dont' entirely disagree with your points I quoted... Actually just the Dianna one really.)


----------



## littlebabyjesus (May 1, 2014)

peterkro said:


> The true tragedy of this is that under the policy for drug users in the sixties she would have had a diamorphine script and may well have raised her children and gone on to live to a ripe old age whilst still using.But oh no they stopped it and made people go to that black-market resulting in deaths and misery all around.



Well said. I'm guessing dwyer's never lost anyone in this way. If he had, he wouldn't be twatting on like this.


----------



## el-ahrairah (May 1, 2014)

Sprocket. said:


> More so if someone off urban got sent down for it!


 
to be fair, you'd get away with it because there are literally thousands of us and we've all got a motive.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (May 1, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> to be fair, you'd get away with it because there are literally thousands of us and we've all got a motive.


Bunned to death?


----------



## Sprocket. (May 1, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> to be fair, you'd get away with it because there are literally thousands of us and we've all got a motive.



(Spoiler alert) Almost like the plot of Murder on the Orient Express!


----------



## ffsear (May 1, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> If you find yourself becoming emtionally involved with the celebrities you see in the media, you are in serious trouble.  You are being exploited by enormous, powerful and intelligent forces that will quite happily suck all of your genuine, personal emotion away, returning it to you in a dehumanized, commodified form that will render you incapable of forming any emotional attachment to a real human being.





What if the emotional is sexual?  Like when i look at Kelly Brook.   Can i be human then?


----------



## phildwyer (May 1, 2014)

xenon said:


> (Although I dont' entirely disagree with your points I quoted... Actually just the Dianna one really.)


 
And I don't entirely disagree with your earlier points either.

But I must differ with you over Diana's death.  In some ways the Brits were lucky to experience that, because it revealed the dangers of Emotional Totalitarianism most aptly.

Younger readers may find this hard to believe, but for months after the crash it was impossible to express anything other than grief--indifference would literally have been fighting talk. 

To me it seemed to involve a _standarization _of emotion, a refusal of the particular and the personal in favor of the mass-produced, the commodified, the artificial.

Today however, many appear to prefer artificial emotion to the genuine article.  And why not?  It's less hassle after all.  Hence, I suggest, all the howling hysterical sorrow.


----------



## DotCommunist (May 1, 2014)

i remember the sick jokes doing the rounds at least a week after the event


----------



## littlebabyjesus (May 1, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> i remember the sick jokes doing the rounds at least a week after the event


If we'd had internet back then like we do now, they'd have started within minutes.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (May 1, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Younger readers may find this hard to believe, but for months after the crash it was impossible to express anything other than grief--indifference would literally have been fighting talk.



The mainstream media _acted as if _the whole country were in mourning. _Very_ different. Same thing happened with the Queen Mother, and no doubt will happen with the Queen.


----------



## Sprocket. (May 1, 2014)

littlebabyjesus said:


> If we'd had internet back then like we do now, they'd have started within minutes.



Yes, back then the immediacy of the punchline was gone by the time the pigeon arrived!


----------



## phildwyer (May 1, 2014)

brogdale said:


> Whilst I share some of Phil's analysis of sleb commodification, you make a very good point. If Phil were genuinely immune to the "_powerful and intelligent forces_" of sleb media, why would he start a thread on Peaches' supposed drug habit by articulating _*fear *_for her well-being. Appears to be some contradiction in his position.


 
I never claimed to be immune.  How could anyone be immune?  But at least I can perceive the situation for what it is.

This is the situation: unimaginably powerful forces are trying to eliminate authentic subjectivity and replaced it by a *reified parody* of the human self.  They foster our obssession with celebrity in furtherance of this end. 

As I say, no-one can avoid this process entirely.  But the possibility of resistance can only spring from knowledge of what is happening--knowledge that most people are evidently far from possessing.


----------



## souljacker (May 1, 2014)

I personally slagged off Diana and the reactions of the media and grief tourists pretty much non-stop from the moment I heard she'd died. I got some funny looks but no-one ever offered me out.


----------



## phildwyer (May 1, 2014)

ffsear said:


> What if the emotional is sexual?  Like when i look at Kelly Brook.   Can i be human then?


 
No.


----------



## phildwyer (May 1, 2014)

littlebabyjesus said:


> The mainstream media _acted as if _the whole country were in mourning. _Very_ different. Same thing happened with the Queen Mother, and no doubt will happen with the Queen.


 
Nah, the Queen Mother was very different, on account of her age.

And your disjunction between the media and the public is exactly my point--the media told people how to feel (ordered them really), and even those who did not feel that way were compelled to pretend that they did, or at least to keep quiet.

We see feeble versions of this overweening attitude in the mithering on here.  Emotional totalitarianism never sleeps, it merely awaits an opportunity to strike.  Thank Christ Peaches doesn't seem to be cutting it, at least not beyond the rather unique confines of this thread.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (May 1, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> And your disjunction between the media and the public is exactly my point--the media told people how to feel (ordered them really), and even those who did not feel that way were compelled to pretend that they did, or at least to keep quiet..


Rubbish. 
Nobody was compelled to keep quiet. Souljacker wasn't. I wasn't. We did not have access  to the media, which studiously ignored such sentiments, that's all.

btw, I don't think your use of Northwest vernacular is strictly accurate.


----------



## phildwyer (May 1, 2014)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Rubbish.
> Nobody was compelled to keep quiet. Souljacker wasn't. I wasn't. We did not have access  to the media, which studiously ignored such sentiments, that's all.


 
It was the first time the media's ability to get inside people's heads and change the way they think became clear.

Encouraging people to identify with celebrity icons as if they were personal acquaintances is a vital part of this project.  It contributes to the waning of affect in personal relations that is so often remarked by contemporary commentators.

But don't take my word for it.  Try a thought experiment.  Think of the most celebrity-obssessed people you know.  Then think of the least emotionally literate people you know.  They're the same people, right?



littlebabyjesus said:


> btw, I don't think your use of Northwest vernacular is strictly accurate.


 
But I haven't used any Northwest vernacular.  Northwest where?


----------



## brogdale (May 1, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> I never claimed to be immune.  How could anyone be immune?  But at least I can perceive the situation for what it is.
> 
> This is the situation: unimaginably powerful forces are trying to eliminate authentic subjectivity and replaced it by a *reified parody* of the human self.  They foster our obssession with celebrity in furtherance of this end.
> 
> As I say, no-one can avoid this process entirely.  But the possibility of resistance can only spring from knowledge of what is happening--knowledge that most people are evidently far from possessing.



Yes, yes, yes and yes....but, having accepted that no-one could be immune to the forces of capital driving such reification, when you post stuff like this:-



> "But then again is the *hypocritical pretence of personal sympathy for the tribulations of celebrities *really all that better..."



you do leave yourself open to accusations of trolling.


----------



## xenon (May 1, 2014)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Rubbish.
> Nobody was compelled to keep quiet. Souljacker wasn't. I wasn't. We did not have access  to the media, which studiously ignored such sentiments, that's all.
> 
> btw, I don't think your use of Northwest vernacular is strictly accurate.


----------



## phildwyer (May 1, 2014)

brogdale said:


> you do leave yourself open to accusations of trolling.


 
Eye of the beholder though innit.

To me, trolling is saying something you don't believe.  I never do that.

To others, trolling seems to be saying something provocative, or in a provocative manner, or even in a forceful manner, or even in a manner that utilizes some rhetorical devices now and again.

Sorry, but the latter definition of "trolling" (and I know it's not yours) just seems like ignorance to me.


----------



## killer b (May 1, 2014)

thread tools > ignore thread, everyone. Quick!


----------



## Greebo (May 1, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> <snip>But I haven't used any Northwest vernacular.  Northwest where?


Mithering?


----------



## phildwyer (May 1, 2014)

Greebo said:


> Mithering?


 
That's Welsh that is.  Lots of supposedly English words have Welsh origins, such as coom and penguin.


----------



## Greebo (May 1, 2014)

Check the map some time - northwestern England and north Wales share the Dee estuary. 

Which side first used that word is about as relevant as wondering whose lungs currently enclose the carbon dioxide I exhaled first thing this morning.


----------



## Citizen66 (May 1, 2014)

phildwyer said:
			
		

> That's Welsh that is.  Lots of supposedly English words have Welsh origins, such as coom and penguin.



moedrodd is the welsh version.


----------



## phildwyer (May 1, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> moedrodd is the welsh version.


 
No it's not, the pronunciation is completely different.

In reality the Welsh version is "meidda," which is pronounced exactly the same as the so-called "English."  In Wales it means to go from door to door begging for milk, as one does.

And Greebo--of course it matters which side said it first.  Since "Welsh" people inhabited Britain long before the "English," it is clear that the English must have nicked it from the Welsh, not vice versa.


----------



## Sprocket. (May 1, 2014)

Fortunately language evolves.


----------



## Greebo (May 1, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> <snip> of course it matters which side said it first.  Since "Welsh" people inhabited Britain long before the "English," it is clear that the English must have nicked it from the Welsh, not vice versa.


So now you claim to know that the word was commonly used before the Angles and the Saxons arrived - got any proof of that?  Pick a border, any border, theft and trade go on in both directions.

Right, let's see if I can get more sense out of a GP than out of you...


----------



## phildwyer (May 1, 2014)

Sprocket. said:


> Fortunately language evolves.


 
Evolves, does it?  What, like the survival of the fittest?  Competitive adaptation of individual words to their environment?  I must say that's a remarkable discovery you've made there, you really must alert the experts, you'll be world famous by breakfast.

Fool that you are.


----------



## Sprocket. (May 1, 2014)

You really are a pudding aren't you.


----------



## phildwyer (May 1, 2014)

Greebo said:


> So now you claim to know that the word was commonly used before the Angles and the Saxons arrived - got any proof of that?


 
Logical proof I have.  The word "meidda" means "to beg."  Now, who is likely to be doing the begging: the conquerors or the conquered?


----------



## Corax (May 1, 2014)

killer b said:


> thread tools > ignore thread, everyone. Quick!


Are you the kind of weirdo that _*doesn't*_ slow down to look at car-crashes or something?


----------



## phildwyer (May 1, 2014)

Sprocket. said:


> You really are a pudding aren't you.


 
No seriously, this "language evolves" idea is seriously fascinating.  Tell us more.  Is it a bit like the dinosaurs or what?

Idiot.


----------



## Sprocket. (May 1, 2014)

Emotional are we?
Google David Crystal, he explains much better than the idiot I am could ever do.


----------



## Orang Utan (May 1, 2014)

Stop giving him oxygen!


----------



## Corax (May 1, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> Stop giving him oxygen!


There'll always be fresh plankton for him unfortunately.


----------



## phildwyer (May 1, 2014)

Sprocket. said:


> Emotional are we?
> Google David Crystal, he explains much better than the idiot I am could ever do.


 
First of all, Crystal is widely and rightly regarded as a profoundly eccentric fellow.  Second, he does not claims that language evolves.

I suspect that you have somehow confused the concept of "evolution" with that of "change."  Fool that you are.

You'll recall that you've agreed to leave this thread.  Would you mind honoring that agreement now please?  Thank you in advance.


----------



## Sprocket. (May 1, 2014)

You first pwdin nos da.


----------



## phildwyer (May 1, 2014)

Sprocket. said:


> You first pwdin nos da.


 
Twpsyn, we're trying to have a discussion here.  You're welcome to stay and learn but please, you must stop disrupting our conversation.  You'll find you enjoy it far more that way.

I'm off for a bit, can someone else handle the job of chasing Sprocket away for a while?  He won't have to be told too many more times, I don't think.  Cheers.


----------



## brogdale (May 1, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Eye of the beholder though innit.
> 
> To me, trolling is saying something you don't believe.  I never do that.
> 
> ...


 I've no idea whether or not you believe the stuff that you post, but an admission that your post was deliberate provocation is a little sad.


----------



## Cheesypoof (May 1, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> I never claimed to be immune.  How could anyone be immune?  But at least I can perceive the situation for what it is..
> 
> As I say, no-one can avoid this process entirely.  But the possibility of resistance can only spring from knowledge of what is happening--knowledge that most people are evidently far from possessing.



Phil - you are seriously overthinking this. I don't agree with your hypothesis but its wrong to lump EVERYONE in the public eye together. We all like/dislike famous people to some degrees.  I wasn't one of the Diana mourners as I cant stand the Royal family and I wasn't a Diana 'fan' either. However, I was shocked when she died and felt quite sad about it, like most people. I found all the pageantry and outpouring of grief crazily excessive, even gross, but you cannot but be kind of moved/ affected by it.

However, when Amy Winehouse died, I was very upset about it and felt genuine grief for her passing. Here at last was this brilliant, beautiful artist with the best voice since Janis Joplin, so many albums ahead of her. Her music genuinely excited me and I thought she was the best thing since Prince. When she died, I felt crushed. As it turns out, one of my best friends died the same day as Winehouse and although he had been ill, it was a big shock. Obviously I loved my friend very much but that did not take away that I was also genuinely upset about Amy. I was at the Secret Garden festival at the time, and many people were crying. I don't find it surprising and I would never call it insincere or ungenuine. Some people are very emotional, very sensitive, and death is very shocking. I can say that I am genuinely upset that Peaches Geldof has died, that's how I feel, and it is not a shallow feeling - neither could it be compared to my feelings about loved ones who I know personally who have passed. The two are not comparable.


----------



## Dr_Herbz (May 1, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Evolves, does it?  What, like the survival of the fittest?  Competitive adaptation of individual words to their environment? * I must say that's a remarkable discovery you've made there, you really must alert the experts, you'll be world famous by breakfast.*



The experts appear to be aware of this.. 

*evolution*
The gradual development of something: _the forms of written languages undergo constant evolution_

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/evolution

*What makes Oxford Dictionaries unique? *

_Our people and our heritage_ – More than 250 language specialists research the language as it changes and develops every day. As the creators of the _OED_, we take pride in our language expertise, and we strive to bring the results of our daily research straight to you in the format you choose.


----------



## phildwyer (May 1, 2014)

brogdale said:


> I've no idea whether or not you believe the stuff that you post, but an admission that your post was deliberate provocation is a little sad.


 
Read it again.  I made no such admission, for the simple reason that it isn't true.


----------



## phildwyer (May 1, 2014)

Cheesypoof said:


> Phil - you are seriously overthinking this. I don't agree with your hypothesis but its wrong to lump Diana in the same category as ANYONE in the public eye. I wasn't one of the Diana mourners as I cant stand the Royal family and I wasn't a Diana 'fan' either. However, I was shocked when she died and felt quite sad about it, like most people. I found all the pageantry and outpouring of grief crazily excessive, even gross, but you cannot but he kind of moved/ affected by it.
> 
> However, when Amy Winehouse died, I was very upset about it and felt genuine grief for her passing. Here at last was this brilliant, beautiful artist with the best voice since Janis Joplin, so many albums ahead of her. Her music genuinely excited me and I thought she was the best thing since Prince. When she died, I felt crushed. As it turns out, one of my best friends died the same day as Winehouse and although he had been ill, it was a big shock. Obviously I loved my friend very much but that did not take away that I was also genuinely upset about Amy. I was at the Secret Garden festival at the time, and many people were crying. I don't find it surprising and I would never call it insincere or ungenuine. Some people are very emotional, very sensitive, and death is very shocking. I can say that I am genuinely upset that Peaches Geldof has died, that's how I feel, and it is not a shallow feeling - neither could it be compared to my feelings about loved ones who I know personally who have passed. The two are not comparable.


 
Thanks for this thoughtful post Cheesy, I'll think about it.  I've got to go for a swim now, but I'll respond properly later.


----------



## phildwyer (May 1, 2014)

Dr_Herbz said:


> the language as it changes and develops every day.


 
Change and development are of course entirely different concepts from evolution.

Really must dash now.


----------



## Cheesypoof (May 1, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Thanks for this thoughtful post Cheesy, I'll think about it.  I've got to go for a swim now, but I'll respond properly later.



no worries Phil. We are all entitled to our opinions. I just want to make clear my position.


----------



## Dr_Herbz (May 1, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Change and development are of course entirely different concepts from evolution.
> 
> Really must dash now.


You should get in touch with those pesky experts at OED and let them know you're available to correct their mistakes


----------



## Corax (May 1, 2014)

40 pages.

Blimey.


----------



## Citizen66 (May 1, 2014)

phildwyer said:
			
		

> In reality the Welsh version is "meidda," which is pronounced exactly the same as the so-called "English."



That's scouse for 'murder', phonetically at least.


----------



## maomao (May 1, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Change and development are of course entirely different concepts from evolution.
> 
> Really must dash now.






			
				a dictionary said:
			
		

> evolution
> ˌiːvəˈluːʃ(ə)n,ˈɛv-/
> _noun_
> 
> ...


Words can have more than one meaning. You're quite right that language does not evolve in the first sense given above but it does in the second.


----------



## brogdale (May 1, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Read it again.  I made no such admission, for the simple reason that it isn't true.



Re-read...



> _To me, trolling is saying something you don't believe. I never do that.
> 
> To others, trolling seems to be saying something provocative, or in a provocative manner, or even in a forceful manner, or even in a manner that utilizes some rhetorical devices now and again.
> 
> Sorry, but the latter definition of "trolling" (and I know it's not yours) just seems like ignorance to me._



...and in the eye of this beholder you appear to be accepting that your earlier posting in the thread did conform to that latter definition of trolling.

I can see that you denied posting stuff you believe to untrue, but offering your preferred definition, not denying the other applied to your posting, and claiming that anyone judging you a troll on this basis was ignorant, suggests that you gave away more than you intended.


----------



## Sprocket. (May 1, 2014)

Heroin played a part they say!
On the ball that phil, God bless him.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 1, 2014)

i confess myself disappointed that dwyer seems have fallen below the lofty standards he expects from everybody else.


----------



## Citizen66 (May 1, 2014)

Actually proper trolling is starting a subject and standing back whilst everyone else slugs it out. Holding and defending a contentious position may well be just that. Although I'm sure he thoroughly enjoys it.


----------



## gabi (May 1, 2014)

Sorry to be the one to point out the elephant in the room here. She fucking od'd while leaving an 11 month old kid crawling around the house and another young one to live with this too.

I've had mates who have done the same. And sorry. But personally I find it fuckin inexcusable. I loved those mates but if you bring kids into the world take some responsibility. She fucked up, big time.

It's a really sad story, mostly coz I think a lot of us have endured this shit, not because of her celebrity. Gah.


----------



## phildwyer (May 1, 2014)

Cheesypoof said:


> I can say that I am genuinely upset that Peaches Geldof has died, that's how I feel, and it is not a shallow feeling - neither could it be compared to my feelings about loved ones who I know personally who have passed. The two are not comparable.


 
I think the last sentence is the important bit.

However I don't think everyone is as well-adjusted as you.  I think that many people experience their feelings for celebrities as entirely comparable to their feelings for real people.  Not necessarily of the same intensity, but as a feeling of the same nature.  That's a serious ethical problem, right?

The other thing to remember is that celebrities don't arise out of nowhere.  There's a multi-billion dollar industry dedicated to making people pay attention to them.  That certainly aims to make money, but it also aims to reproduce the conditions under which it can make money, which is to say it deliberately inculcates celebrity-obssession in its victims.


----------



## phildwyer (May 1, 2014)

brogdale said:


> I can see that you denied posting stuff you believe to untrue, but offering your preferred definition, not denying the other applied to your posting, and claiming that anyone judging you a troll on this basis was ignorant, suggests that you gave away more than you intended.


 
Oh I see what you mean now.  All I can say is that if posting something provocative (as opposed to something one does not believe) makes one a troll, then pretty much everyone here is one.


----------



## phildwyer (May 1, 2014)

gabi said:


> personally I find it fuckin inexcusable.


 
It's unfortunate for sure, but I don't suppose she meant to do it.  I don't see overdosing as an act of moral turpitude.


----------



## phildwyer (May 1, 2014)

Sprocket. said:


> Heroin played a part they say!


 
Ye-es, I think we've all grasped that bit now, thank you very much.  Do you have anything you want to say about it, or are you just going to twitter and twerp away all night?


----------



## Cheesypoof (May 1, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> I think the last sentence is the important bit.
> 
> However I don't think everyone is as well-adjusted as you.  I think that many people experience their feelings for celebrities as entirely comparable to their feelings for real people.  Not necessarily of the same intensity, but as a feeling of the same nature.  That's a serious ethical problem, right?.



Nope, I don't believe it is. I don't think that the general public have comparable grief over famous people as real people. For someone you didn't know, its a different kind of grief that encompasses many things, like a strong compassionate feeling for that person's family. Or bewilderment as to their 'secret life,' the bizarre events that led to their death, and so forth. This has a far more distant poignancy than feelings for someone you  knew, but it does affect you.


----------



## Greebo (May 1, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Logical proof I have.  The word "meidda" means "to beg."  Now, who is likely to be doing the begging: the conquerors or the conquered?


I have logical proof too.  

These days, "mither" has a connotation of persistently complaining and grumbling about the same thing while doing very little to change the situation - who is more likely to be hearing that?


----------



## Frances Lengel (May 1, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> It depends what you mean by "upset."
> 
> Naturally such deaths are a matter of regret.  But I think that anyone whose emotions on hearing of the death of a celebrity are in any way comparable to those they would feel on hearing of the death of a loved one is a psychopath (and that's not a term I use lightly).



These people who claim to be upset to the point of crying real tears over the death of someone who's never even heard of them - How are they going to cope when their goldfish dies?

Tell you what though - On this thread
http://www.urban75.net/forums/threa...mpire-gets-off-possessing-52g-of-coke.185921/

someone's mother dies through drugs but unlike with Pickles the urban consensus seems to be that tetrabird doesn't deserve sympathy coz she was rich through inherited wealth. I'm struggling to see the difference, me.


----------



## Corax (May 1, 2014)

When Diana died, and the news found plenty of 'normal people' willing to say "it's like one of my family had died" - I found that far more saddening than the death itself.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (May 1, 2014)

Frances Lengel said:


> Tell you what though - On this thread
> http://www.urban75.net/forums/threa...mpire-gets-off-possessing-52g-of-coke.185921/
> 
> someone's mother dies through drugs but unlike with Pickles the urban consensus seems to be that tetrabird doesn't deserve sympathy coz she was rich through inherited wealth. I'm struggling to see the difference, me.


I agree. There was some vile shit on that thread.


----------



## phildwyer (May 1, 2014)

Frances Lengel said:


> These people who claim to be upset to the point of crying real tears over the death of someone who's never even heard of them - How are they going to cope when their goldfish dies?
> 
> Tell you what though - On this thread
> http://www.urban75.net/forums/threa...mpire-gets-off-possessing-52g-of-coke.185921/
> ...


 
That's a really revealing thread to post in this context, thanks for doing so.


----------



## phildwyer (May 1, 2014)

Cheesypoof said:


> Nope, I don't believe it is. I don't think that the general public have comparable grief over famous people as real people. For someone you didn't know, its a different kind of grief that encompasses many things, like a strong compassionate feeling for that person's family. Or bewilderment as to their 'secret life,' the bizarre events that led to their death, and so forth. This has a far more distant poignancy than feelings for someone you  knew, but it does affect you.


 
Actually, as the thread Frances just linked to reminds us, I think many people feel _more _empathy for celebrities than they do for people who don't appear on telly.

You refer to a "different kind of grief."  I'd say it was so different as to be another thing altogether.

Basically, I think that false, media-induced, pseudo-sympathy for celebrities attacks and kills the capacity to feel real sympathy for real people.  And I think this is a very serious, very widespread social problem that is rapidly getting worse.


----------



## Doctor Carrot (May 1, 2014)

Do you mean empathy for 'real' people who have died or empathy for people in general with regards to their lot in life, such as the affects of benefit cuts?


----------



## brogdale (May 1, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Oh I see what you mean now.  All I can say is that if posting something provocative (as opposed to something one does not believe) makes one a troll, then pretty much everyone here is one.



Yeah, I'm sure that many urbanites have posted a provocative post in their time, but it strikes me as pretty shabby to argue that folks' emotions are being manipulated by the capitalist media, (to which no-one is immune), and then characterise their sincerely perceived feelings as "_*hypocritical pretence", "insincere expostulations", "crazy", "psychopath(ic)", *_rendering them _*"incapable of forming any emotional attachment to a real human being", "have lost sight of the difference between fact and fantasy", *_and_* "prefer artificial emotion to the genuine article".*_

Ugly stuff.


----------



## phildwyer (May 1, 2014)

brogdale said:


> Yeah, I'm sure that many urbanites have posted a provocative post in their time, but it strikes me as pretty shabby to argue that folks' emotions are being manipulated by the capitalist media, (to which no-one is immune), and then characterise their sincerely perceived feelings as "_*hypocritical pretence", "insincere expostulations", "crazy", "psychopath(ic)", *_rendering them _*"incapable of forming any emotional attachment to a real human being", "have lost sight of the difference between fact and fantasy", *_and_* "prefer artificial emotion to the genuine article".*_


 
Really?  Then you're a far less astute reader than I took you for.  Because it strikes me, very clearly, as absolutely 100% accurate.  Indeed if anything these seem rather lenient ways of describing the death of the human soul--which is after all what we're discussing here. 

And I say that with the more emphasis--a thousand times more emphasis--for the fact that I'm not immune.


----------



## phildwyer (May 1, 2014)

Doctor Carrot said:


> Do you mean empathy for 'real' people who have died or empathy for people in general with regards to their lot in life, such as the affects of benefit cuts?


 
I mean empathy for real people.  Read the thread Frances just posted.  Read the way the likes of Belboid and the truly *vile and* *disgusting* Louis MacNeice speak about the dead on that thread.

That's the lack of empathy.  Right there, that's the end of empathy, if you're smart enough to see it.


----------



## phildwyer (May 1, 2014)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I agree. There was some vile shit on that thread.


 
Let everyone read it.  There's no reason why those who posted that kind of stuff should be allowed to forget about it.  Here's a little taster:



belboid said:


> She could have been dead for a week before being found apparently.  Ha ha. Good


----------



## Doctor Carrot (May 1, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> I mean empathy for real people.  Read the thread Frances just posted.  Read the way the likes of Belboid and the truly *vile and* *disgusting* Louis MacNeice speak about the dead on that thread.
> 
> That's the lack of empathy.  Right there, that's the end of empathy, if you're smart enough to see it.



Yeah I'd agree that's grim gloating on that thread but I don't think you can say empathy is over because of what a couple of posters said on a thread two years ago.  

I do agree with you that there is less empathy in society but that's been declining for decades and it's not exactly surprising. I don't think it's particularly to do with the media whipping up faux sympathy for dead celebrities. That does of course happen but I think it's just one part of a huge propaganda system that constantly pumps out the message 'worry about yourself and fuck everyone else.'  I'd in fact go as far to say that in some cases people feel such empathy for celebrities because it's an outlet for the natural emotion of empathy, if that empathy's been beaten out of people's heads it needs to find an outlet and celebrities dying is a perfect outlet.  However, I don't really think empathy's been whipped up in the case of Peaches Geldof I think the media have merely reported the fact she's died. Some people, as already discussed, react strongly to it because it makes them think of people they've lost, makes them think about death and the fact that a young person has died and that's always sad. I certainly don't think these people are any of the things brogdale pulled you up on though.


----------



## phildwyer (May 1, 2014)

Doctor Carrot said:


> Yeah I'd agree that's grim gloating on that thread but I don't think you can say empathy is over because of what a couple of posters said on a thread two years ago.
> 
> I do agree with you that there is less empathy in society but that's been declining for decades and it's not exactly surprising. I don't think it's particularly to do with the media whipping up faux sympathy for dead celebrities. That does of course happen but I think it's just one part of a huge propaganda system that constantly pumps out the message 'worry about yourself and fuck everyone else.'  I'd in fact go as far to say that in some cases people feel such empathy for celebrities because it's an outlet for the natural emotion of empathy, if that empathy's been beaten out of people's heads it needs to find an outlet and celebrities dying is a perfect outlet.  However, I don't really think empathy's been whipped up in the case of Peaches Geldof I think the media have merely reported the fact she's died. Some people, as already discussed, react strongly to it because it makes them think of people they've lost, makes them think about death and the fact that a young person has died and that's always sad. I certainly don't think these people are any of the things brogdale pulled you up on though.


 
I agree with all of this except the last sentence--and, once again, I'm certainly not immune to this process.  But it seems to me that the rise of false empathy directed towards celebrities and the decline of true empathy directed towards one's nearest-and-dearest are two sides of the same coin.  The one determines the other, in dialectical fashion.  Actually I think you make precisely the same point here:



Doctor Carrot said:


> I'd in fact go as far to say that in some cases people feel such empathy for celebrities because it's an outlet for the natural emotion of empathy, if that empathy's been beaten out of people's heads it needs to find an outlet and celebrities dying is a perfect outlet.


 
That's pretty much what I've been saying, or trying to say, throughout.


----------



## maomao (May 1, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Actually, as the thread Frances just linked to reminds us, I think many people feel _more _empathy for celebrities than they do for people who don't appear on telly.
> 
> You refer to a "different kind of grief."  I'd say it was so different as to be another thing altogether.
> 
> Basically, I think that false, media-induced, pseudo-sympathy for celebrities attacks and kills the capacity to feel real sympathy for real people.  And I think this is a very serious, very widespread social problem that is rapidly getting worse.



I could be wrong because I haven't checked but I find it highly unlikely that any of the people expressing joy at the death of the Tetra Pak heiress were the same people as those who claimed to have expressed grief at Peaches' death. I think there's also been a bit of confusion between people who said 'oh, that's a bit sad isn't it' about Peaches' death on Urban and other people who may have expressed stronger feelings elsewhere. There were admittedly one or two slightly over the top expressions of sadness here but I really think that those posters in particular would have found laughing at Ms Tetra Pak's death distasteful.

So while I agree with you about the cult of celebrity to an extent your argument here doesn't really hold up.


----------



## Awesome Wells (May 1, 2014)

If that Hopkins creature flaps her gums over this, she can kiss what passes for a media career goodbye.


----------



## Doctor Carrot (May 1, 2014)

Why is it a false empathy just because it's directed at celebrities? I remember reading a story about a young woman dying suddenly on the same day as Peaches. I felt empathy for that woman as well as Peaches. Neither of them I knew personally so are you saying my empathy for both these people I didn't know, one famous and one not, is false? I don't think people's empathy for their nearest and dearest has declined in the way you're suggesting. The way you're putting is making it sound like people care more about a celebrity dying than, say, if a mate died or even someone you knew reasonably well but not too close died. I don't think that's true. What I do think is true is the increasing lack of empathy for people going through atos tests, the unemployed, migrant workers and so on.


----------



## phildwyer (May 1, 2014)

Doctor Carrot said:


> Why is it a false empathy just because it's directed at celebrities? I remember reading a story about a young woman dying suddenly on the same day as Peaches. I felt empathy for that woman as well as Peaches. Neither of them I knew personally so are you saying my empathy for both these people I didn't know, one famous and one not, is false?


 
No, I distinguish between empathy for celebrities and empathy for strangers.

Why?  Because there is a multi-billion dollar industry dedicated to making us feel empathy for celebrities.  I believe that this industry has very bad motives, and very evil plans, and I want nothing to do with its products, its manipulations or its psychological effects.  Nor should you.  Nor should anyone.


----------



## phildwyer (May 1, 2014)

Doctor Carrot said:


> What I do think is true is the increasing lack of empathy for people going through atos tests, the unemployed, migrant workers and so on.


 
Here we agree.  Where we differ is over my opinion that the lack of empathy you describe here is the* direct result* of the pseudo-empathy created and packaged by the media and sold back to us in the guise of emotional reactions to the lives of celebrities.

It's this causal link that's important.


----------



## Doctor Carrot (May 1, 2014)

I personally haven't seen any whipping up of sympathy I've simply just read the Peaches Geldof died and how she died.  I just don't agree that no one should give a fuck about a celebrity dying, who are still human beings afterall, simply because there's a multi billion dollar blood sucking industry attached to them.


----------



## brogdale (May 1, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Really?  Then you're a far less astute reader than I took you for.  Because it strikes me, very clearly, as absolutely 100% accurate.  Indeed if anything these seem rather lenient ways of describing the death of the human soul--which is after all what we're discussing here.
> 
> And I say that with the more emphasis--a thousand times more emphasis--for the fact that I'm not immune.



In your mind you might have been describing what you regard as "_the death of the human soul_", but you were actually offering very judgemental views of other posters' expressed emotions. You and I might agree that capitalist media is, in part, responsible for the development of those feelings, but to describe the expressions of people who may have been subject to such manipulation as *"crazy", "hypocritical" or "insincere" *or* "psychopathic" *looks to me like blaming the victims of capitalism.

As I said, ugly stuff indeed.


----------



## phildwyer (May 1, 2014)

maomao said:


> So while I agree with you about the cult of celebrity to an extent your argument here doesn't really hold up.


 
Well I'm describing a general tendency here.  I don't expect it to hold absolutely true in every case.

I am convinced however that empathy for celebrities, being induced from outside by the forces of capital, is not merely different from but actually the antithesis of real, human empathy.


----------



## Doctor Carrot (May 1, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Here we agree.  Where we differ is over my opinion that the lack of empathy you describe here is the* direct result* of the pseudo-empathy created and packaged by the media and sold back to us in the guise of emotional reactions to the lives of celebrities.
> 
> It's this causal link that's important.



No I agree that's the case I just think you're wildly overstating the causality. I think it only forms a very small part of it.  I think the daily bilge from the media about the people I've listed has a far greater affect, bilge that's very obvious and out in the open.


----------



## phildwyer (May 1, 2014)

brogdale said:


> In your mind you might have been describing what you regard as "_the death of the human soul_", but you were actually offering very judgemental views of other posters' expressed emotions. You and I might agree that capitalist media is, in part, responsible for the development of those feelings, but to describe the expressions of people who may have been subject to such manipulation as *"crazy", "hypocritical" or "insincere" *or* "psychopathic" *looks to me like blaming the victims of capitalism.


 
Well we're going round in circles now and should probably take a break.

Yes I suppose you could say I'm blaming the victims, but I believe the fact that I acknowledge myself to be prominent among them gives me licence to do so.

This isn't a trivial issue.  It's not something that should be discussed wearing kid gloves.  It's worth getting angry about.


----------



## phildwyer (May 1, 2014)

Doctor Carrot said:


> No I agree that's the case I just think you're wildly overstating the causality.


 
We'll probably have to agree to differ at this stage.

All I would say to you is this.  Watch people who express empathy for celebrities very closely.  Watch how they treat the people in their real lives.  Keep an eye on their political and social opinions too.  And for God's sake don't trust them.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (May 1, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Here we agree.  Where we differ is over my opinion that the lack of empathy you describe here is the* direct result* of the pseudo-empathy created and packaged by the media and sold back to us in the guise of emotional reactions to the lives of celebrities.
> 
> It's this causal link that's important.


Don't buy your thesis at all. And don't agree even that the thing it attempts to explain has happened. People can show a marked lack of empathy for those they do not identify with as fellow human beings. That thread fl linked to is an example of that. But that's no more true now than it was in the past, and if anything most people can probably identify with more other people now than at times in the past.


----------



## brogdale (May 1, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Well we're going round in circles now and should probably take a break.
> 
> Yes I suppose you could say I'm blaming the victims, but I believe *the fact that I acknowledge myself to be prominent among them gives me licence to do so.*
> 
> This isn't a trivial issue.  It's not something that should be discussed wearing kid gloves.  It's worth getting angry about.



I see no circles at all. That "I'm a victim too, so that gives me licence to blame other victims" line is utter bull; we've all seen how the capitalists and their shills have used that trope to divide the working class..."I've had a pay cut, so should those feckless skivers.."

Ugly, reactionary shite.


----------



## Cheesypoof (May 1, 2014)

Going back to the thread topic....I'm quite shocked the verdict is an overdose. A tragic accident. And while she was obviously crazy to take gear when she has kids, I won't condemn her...at the end of the day, a young woman has died, leaving many loved ones behind her.


----------



## phildwyer (May 1, 2014)

brogdale said:


> I see no circles at all.


 
Maybe you're just being willfully obtuse then.  It's quite simple: there's nothing wrong with using strong terms to describe pernicious delusions.


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (May 1, 2014)

Cheesypoof said:


> Going back to the thread topic....I'm quite shocked the verdict is an overdose. A tragic accident. And while she was obviously crazy to take gear when she has kids, I won't condemn her...at the end of the day, a young woman has died, leaving many loved ones behind her.


you sound like someone on match of the day.


----------



## phildwyer (May 1, 2014)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Don't buy your thesis at all. And don't agree even that the thing it attempts to explain has happened. People can show a marked lack of empathy for those they do not identify with as fellow human beings. That thread fl linked to is an example of that. But that's no more true now than it was in the past, and if anything most people can probably identify with more other people now than at times in the past.


 
So you think people are becoming *more *emphatic?  You do not acknowledge the death of affect?  You perceive no coarsening of public discourse?  You don't find the cult of celebrity a teeny bit disturbing?

If all that is true, you must live on the moon.


----------



## weltweit (May 1, 2014)

The fact that she had heroin in her system does not change that I feel sad for her kids and wider family that she died. Whatever else, it remains tragic.


----------



## Cheesypoof (May 1, 2014)

Paulie Tandoori said:


> you sound like someone on match of the day.




weltweit summed it up better in his post after mine, if that makes you feel better....


----------



## rutabowa (May 1, 2014)

sometimes i go through phases where i can't read through a paper without getting all emotional about one story or another... usually it is involving total unknown people, occasionally it happens to be someone famous. sometimes i get emotional over something in a film or book, and that is just FICTION! I don't think that makes me (all that) emotionally stunted.... or emotionally well-developed either. it is just a thing that humans have always done, otherwise why would tragic theatre and stuff exist.


----------



## rutabowa (May 1, 2014)

weltweit said:


> The fact that she had heroin in her system does not change that I feel sad for her kids and wider family that she died. Whatever else, it remains tragic.


agreed, doesn't change a thing.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (May 1, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> So you think people are becoming *more *emphatic?  You do not acknowledge the death of affect?  You perceive no coarsening of public discourse?  You don't find the cult of celebrity a teeny bit disturbing?
> 
> If all that is true, you must live on the moon.


I do not acknowledge the death of affect, no. Yes, I do dislike the cult of celebrity, and yes I find it disturbing sometimes, although it's something I happily ignore most of the time. Like when Diana died - I imposed a total media blackout on myself for a couple of weeks. Job done.


----------



## brogdale (May 1, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Maybe you're just being willfully obtuse then.  It's quite simple: there's nothing wrong with using strong terms to describe pernicious delusions.



There is when they're aimed at the victims of the pernicious capitalist process. And what's with all that bullshit about having licence to do so?


----------



## pinkmonkey (May 1, 2014)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I do not acknowledge the death of affect, no. Yes, I do dislike the cult of celebrity, and yes I find it disturbing sometimes, although it's something I happily ignore most of the time. Like when Diana died - I imposed a total media blackout on myself for a couple of weeks. Job done.


We were away when Michael Jackson carked it - perfect. I heard one song of his when I happened to be in a paper shop somewhere and that was it.  I was in Italy, working, the day after Diana died, it was crazy, we had people offering us condolences and hugging us, I mean, WTF?, infact even more WTF when you consider I was the only Brit - my colleagues were German and Polish. Then we watched the funeral in our hotel room, hammered on wine and my German colleague made up hilarious alternate lyrics to Eltons candle in the wind.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (May 1, 2014)

pinkmonkey said:


> We were away when Michael Jackson carked it - perfect. I heard one song of his when I happened to be in a paper shop somewhere and that was it.  I was in Italy, working, the day after Diana died, it was crazy, we had people offering us condolences and hugging us, I mean, WTF?, infact even more WTF when you consider I was the only Brit - my colleagues were German and Polish. Then we watched the funeral in our hotel room, hammered on wine and my German colleague made up hilarious alternate lyrics to Eltons candle in the wind.



The one that mystified me was the Queen Mum. I was working in the Festival Hall at the time, and the end of the queue to file past her body (in Westminster Abbey, I think) was just outside. The wait was something like ten or twelve hours, and there were whole families there with young kids. Very, very, very odd.

I got lots of reading done when Diana died. It was quite good for me.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (May 1, 2014)

So, Beatlemania, what was that? 

Emperor worship in Japan, what was that? 

There have been versions of celebrity-worship in different times and places. Sorry phil, but the more I think about your theory, the more ridiculous it becomes.


----------



## UrbaneFox (May 1, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> All I would say to you is this.  Watch people who express empathy for celebrities very closely.  Watch how they treat the people in their real lives.  Keep an eye on their political and social opinions too.  And for God's sake don't trust them.



Have you told this to the people who publish the DSM?


----------



## Greebo (May 1, 2014)

littlebabyjesus said:


> <snip> Sorry phil, but the more I think about your theory, the more ridiculous it becomes.


*shrug* It's just another variation on his favourite metatheme - the world's going to Hell in a handcart.  This in spite of even the Ancient Greeks being certain that each generation was worse and that the world was in decline. 

For that theory to be hold water now, either we've been falling almost forever or the days of homo erectus were paradisical.


----------



## fishfinger (May 1, 2014)

Greebo said:


> ...either we've been falling almost forever or the days of homo erectus were paradisical.


Nostalgia ain't what it used to be.


----------



## Greebo (May 1, 2014)

fishfinger said:


> Nostalgia ain't what it used to be.


Doesn't stop people trying to monetise it.


----------



## LiamO (May 2, 2014)

I remember when Di died and Dodi died (dey did doh, didn't dey).

me and Missus LiamO were down in Dublin for an all-Ireland semi-final (Mayo Vs Offally).

We were staying in a wee B&b and that morning the landlady, a little old kerry woman, came in with the breakfast saying 'Isn't it terrible news?'
'What'
'Diana is dead'
'Diana who?'
'Princess Diana. I'll bring in the radio so ye can listen to it all'.

She duly did so and RTÉ was wall to wall on how di died and dodi died (dey did doh, didn't dee?).

Two minutes later she landed in with the toast and was absolutely disgusted that I had changed to some daft Country station.


----------



## Citizen66 (May 2, 2014)

Frances Lengel said:
			
		

> These people who claim to be upset to the point of crying real tears over the death of someone who's never even heard of them - How are they going to cope when their goldfish dies?
> 
> Tell you what though - On this thread
> http://www.urban75.net/forums/threa...mpire-gets-off-possessing-52g-of-coke.185921/
> ...



The thread begins with people complaining that she got off a (pretty serious) drug charge because of her social standing. Let's not distort things now.


----------



## Frances Lengel (May 2, 2014)

I was making no comment about how the thread started, I was merely comparing the differing reactions to the two deaths.


----------



## free spirit (May 2, 2014)

Cheesypoof said:


> Going back to the thread topic....I'm quite shocked the verdict is an overdose. A tragic accident. And while she was obviously crazy to take gear when she has kids, I won't condemn her...at the end of the day, a young woman has died, leaving many loved ones behind her.


about as tragic as it comes. Just like a mate of mine back in the 90s, off the gear for ages due to having a little kid to be looking after, then sneaks off for his first hit in months and must have forgotten about having no tolerance to it or something.


----------



## phildwyer (May 2, 2014)

LiamO said:


> I remember when Di died and Dodi died (dey did doh, didn't dey).
> 
> me and Missus LiamO were down in Dublin for an all-Ireland semi-final (Mayo Vs Offally).
> 
> ...


 
I was in New York City, around 3am, listening to WBAI, a black ultra-radical radio station.  Suddenly the announcer goes: "Weeell now, seems we've just heard that Diana of England is dead... that's right, _dead_... but nobody here cares about that, so here's some more Public Enemy...."

That's the way to do it.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 2, 2014)

Frances Lengel said:


> I was making no comment about how the thread started, I was merely comparing the differing reactions to the two deaths.


i was very upset when kenneth williams, peter sellers, frankie howerd and peter cook died. not because i thought i knew them but because they'd made me laugh.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 2, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> I was in New York City, around 3am, listening to WBAI, a black ultra-radical radio station.  Suddenly the announcer goes: "Weeell now, seems we've just heard that Diana of England is dead... that's right, _dead_... but nobody here cares about that, so here's some more Public Enemy...."
> 
> That's the way to do it.


i thought you said above "all i'm going to say is ..." yet here you are showing that to be er misleading.


----------



## phildwyer (May 2, 2014)

littlebabyjesus said:


> So, Beatlemania, what was that?
> 
> Emperor worship in Japan, what was that?
> 
> There have been versions of celebrity-worship in different times and places. Sorry phil, but the more I think about your theory, the more ridiculous it becomes.


 
The ubiquity of the phenomenon confirms my thesis, as I would have thought obvious.


----------



## phildwyer (May 2, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> i thought you said above "all i'm going to say is ..."


 
Well you were wrong, weren't you?  Again.  Read more slowly perhaps?


----------



## Pickman's model (May 2, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Well you were wrong, weren't you?  Again.  Read more slowly perhaps?


it's not my reading that's at fault but your sorry penchant for posting and posting on a subject while under the misapprehension that your views are somehow privileged. so when it looks like your stream of piss is terminated, you can't imagine the feeling of relief people feel.


----------



## phildwyer (May 2, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> it's not my reading that's at fault


 
Ys it is.

You quoted me as saying something which I had not said.  That shows either malice or stupidity.  Or more likely your inimitable blend of both.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 2, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Ys it is.
> 
> You quoted me as saying something which I had not said.  That shows either malice or stupidity.  Or more likely your inimitable blend of both.


good. so we're back where we were before.


----------



## phildwyer (May 2, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> good. so we're back where we were before.


 
Only because of your treachery, you treacher.


----------



## Greebo (May 2, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Only because of your treachery, you treacher.


Get a room, the pair of you - preferably soundproofed, airtight, and with a nervous skunk in one corner of it.


----------



## brogdale (May 2, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> it's not my reading that's at fault but your sorry penchant for posting and posting on a subject while under the misapprehension that your views are somehow privileged. so when it looks like your stream of piss is terminated, you can't imagine the feeling of relief people feel.




"_stream of piss_" ha!..... tbh its Phil's "_paruresis_", under questioning, that's frustrating. I asked him, (in #609), to justify his claim that, simply on the basis of being exposed to the capitalist media, somehow gives him "*licence"* to blame victims of the system in the strongest terms?


----------



## phildwyer (May 2, 2014)

brogdale said:


> "_stream of piss_" ha!..... tbh its Phil's "_paruresis_", under questioning, that's frustrating. I asked him, (in #609), to justify his claim that, simply on the basis of being exposed to the capitalist media, somehow gives him "*licence"* to blame victims of the system in the strongest terms?


 
Well I didn't realize I was "under questioning."  Had you informed me of my situation I would naturally have been more forthcoming.

To wit: I do not blame the victims of the system, I blame the system.

Can I have a cigarette now please?


----------



## Orang Utan (May 2, 2014)

People were upset when Deirdee Rashad got locked up and when Little Nell died. The psychos.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 2, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Well I didn't realize I was "under questioning."  Had you informed me of my situation I would naturally have been more forthcoming.
> 
> To wit: I do not blame the victims of the system, I blame the system.
> 
> Can I have a cigarette now please?


don't have just one cigarette, have the packet. one after the other.


----------



## elbows (May 2, 2014)

I see the tabloids have resurrected the concept of the 'drug pusher' to liven up the story.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (May 2, 2014)

elbows said:


> I see the tabloids have resurrected the concept of the 'drug pusher' to liven up the story.



She probably bought the gear off a pusher at the gates of her kid's nursery.


----------



## Greebo (May 2, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> People were upset when Deirdee Rashad got locked up and when Little Nell died. The psychos.


There was also wailing and gnashing of teeth about "the Ambridge One"  ie. Susan Carter.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 2, 2014)

peterkro said:


> The true tragedy of this is that under the policy for drug users in the sixties she would have had a diamorphine script and may well have raised her children and gone on to live to a ripe old age whilst still using.But oh no they stopped it and made people go to that black-market resulting in deaths and misery all around.



If we conclude that she was a regular user, then sure, in a halfway decent world, she could have got a script.
Of course, if she was a recreational/occasional user, she'd probably have been likely to get fucked by black market smack.  I had to call ambulances for mates who were weekend users more than a few times when the shit turned out to be purer or fouler than usual, and they went from nodding to nothing in the space of a couple of minutes.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 2, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> i confess myself disappointed that dwyer seems have fallen below the lofty standards he expects from everybody else.



You must exist in a near-perpetual state of disappointment, then.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 2, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> it's not my reading that's at fault but your sorry penchant for posting and posting on a subject while under the misapprehension that your views are somehow privileged. so when it looks like your stream of piss is terminated, you can't imagine the feeling of relief people feel.



Phil listened to a "black ultra-radical radio station".  Of course his views are privileged!


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 2, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> People were upset when Deirdee Rashad got locked up and when Little Nell died. The psychos.



I laughed when Little Nell died, so I'm obviously *not* a psycho.


----------



## phildwyer (May 2, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> I laughed when Little Nell died


 
How original of you.

''One must have a heart of stone to read the death of Little Nell without laughing'' -- Oscar Wilde, 1898.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 2, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> How original of you.
> 
> ''One must have a heart of stone to read the death of Little Nell without laughing'' -- Oscar Wilde, 1898.



I took it for granted that everyone was aware of the Wilde quote, Pecksniff.


----------



## Corax (May 2, 2014)

Was anyone else watching telly the morning of Diana's little shunt? 

It was the day after my bestie's 1st stag do I think, and we all woke up in the lounge with whopping hangovers. Sticking the TV on it was wall to wall Diana death. 

Except for channel 5, which was broadcasting a cartoon about a farcical royal family - "King Rollo" or something I think. Which at that age and in that still-a-bit-fucked mindset seemed bizarrely hilarious. 

I also remember repeated claims on TV that people in every city and town all over the country were pouring on to the streets to express their grief together. So we went outside to take a look.  They weren't.


----------



## Orang Utan (May 2, 2014)

The telly that day was abysmal. Both BBC 1 and 2 were showing the same rolling news show with royal 'experts' trotting out platitudes about how sad it was. They cancelled a rather dramatic EastEnders omnibus to show this.
I actually rang the BBC to complain. I was livid.


----------



## brogdale (May 2, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> The telly that day was abysmal. Both BBC 1 and 2 were showing the same rolling news show with royal 'experts' trotting out platitudes about how sad it was. They cancelled a rather dramatic EastEnders omnibus to show this.
> I actually rang the BBC to complain. I was livid.


 The funeral day was a joy, though. Near empty roads, no trouble parking on the S. Coast....in the end we took the littl'un to Cuckmere Haven to escape the wall-to-wall wailing...lovely it was.


----------



## brogdale (May 2, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> I do not blame the victims of the system, I blame the system.



I'd hope so too, but frankly that is the polar opposite of your posting throughout yesterday..



> ...Yes I suppose *you could say I'm blaming the victims*, but I believe *the fact that I acknowledge myself to be prominent among them gives me licence to do so.*...there's nothing wrong with using strong terms to describe *pernicious delusions*...



...and how is that claiming to be a victim gives you particular "licence" to blame other victims?


----------



## Corax (May 2, 2014)




----------



## brogdale (May 2, 2014)

Corax said:


>



No, no...he told me he wasn't a troll...


----------



## fakeplasticgirl (May 2, 2014)

i don't understand why people are so shocked - how did people think she'd died? surely when a young person is found dead with no apparent cause, drugs are more likely than sudden adult death syndrome?

terribly terrible sad


----------



## lizzieloo (May 2, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Several years ago, on these boards, I started a thread entitled "Is Peaches Geldof A Junkie?"
> 
> I suspected the truth even then.  So now I wonder why others did not.  In any case it is very sad.



The fact that she died of a heroin overdose isn't proof she was a "junkie". Heroin would be my choice of a way out if it came to it, I'm not a junkie.

I expect I'm going over stuff that's already been said in this thread, CBA to read it all cos of the sniping.


----------



## souljacker (May 2, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> They cancelled a rather dramatic EastEnders omnibus to show this.



Football was cancelled too. It was a fucking disgrace.


----------



## phildwyer (May 2, 2014)

souljacker said:


> Football was cancelled too.


 
Why did the heavens not darken?


----------



## souljacker (May 2, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Why did the heavens not darken?



Sorry, can't remember what the weather was like.


----------



## Cid (May 2, 2014)

elbows said:


> I see the tabloids have resurrected the concept of the 'drug pusher' to liven up the story.



And the obsession with evil music trope. Elliott Smith in this case.


----------



## brogdale (May 2, 2014)

OB attempt to clear up confusion they helped sow...



> Police have confirmed that *drugs paraphernalia was found* in Peaches Geldof's home following her sudden death, and added her husband Thomas Cohen is not under suspicion of any involvement.
> 
> Kent Police released a statement following reports the star's house had been searched after her death, and no drugs found.
> 
> ...


----------



## amonkeyscousin? (May 2, 2014)

Demonization-o-mondo of illegal drugs I reckon.


----------



## twentythreedom (May 2, 2014)

Do we know who Peaches' husband asked to go and check on her, before he got there? Also, did that person not discover her dead before the husband did? All a bit sketchy, there's been very little reported but that person is surely of major interest (plod and press).


----------



## amonkeyscousin? (May 2, 2014)

twentythreedom said:


> Do we know who Peaches' husband asked to go and check on her, before he got there? Also, did that person not discover her dead before the husband did? All a bit sketchy, there's been very little reported but that person is surely of major interest (plod and press).



Let's say I gave my wife a litre bottle of vodka, she downed it and died of acute alcohol poisoning! Would I be a massive cunt facing 8 years in prison?


----------



## Frances Lengel (May 2, 2014)

amonkeyscousin? said:


> Let's say I gave my wife a litre bottle of vodka, she downed it and died of acute alcohol poisoning!* Would I be a massive cunt *facing 8 years in prison?



Yes. Regardless of vodka.


----------



## amonkeyscousin? (May 2, 2014)

Frances Lengel said:


> Yes. Regardless of vodka.



Okay, taking aside personal feelings about myself. Would I be a massive cunt? What about the asda worker who took my payment for the liter of vodka? Would they be culpable?


----------



## twentythreedom (May 2, 2014)

amonkeyscousin? said:


> Let's say I gave my wife a litre bottle of vodka, she downed it and died of acute alcohol poisoning! Would I be a massive cunt facing 8 years in prison?


Depends, why?


----------



## amonkeyscousin? (May 2, 2014)

twentythreedom said:


> Depends, why?



I think you know what I'm alluding to in honesty.


----------



## brogdale (May 2, 2014)

twentythreedom said:


> Do we know who Peaches' husband asked to go and check on her, before he got there? Also, did that person not discover her dead before the husband did? All a bit sketchy, there's been very little reported but that person is surely of major interest (plod and press).


No. But I'm figuring that they called and raised no answer...hence it was her husband that actually discovered her when he got down there. And now that the OB have confirmed they found ''paraphernalia" that clears him from any suspicion that he attempted to cover anything up.


----------



## twentythreedom (May 2, 2014)

amonkeyscousin? said:


> I think you know what I'm alluding to in honesty.


Sure, but it doesn't answer my question.


----------



## twentythreedom (May 2, 2014)

brogdale said:


> No. But I'm figuring that they called and raised no answer...hence it was her husband that actually discovered her when he got down there. And now that the OB have confirmed they found ''paraphernalia" that clears him from any suspicion that he attempted to cover anything up.


So hubby was definitely the first person at the house? The bod he called first didn't go there? And now hubby's not under suspicion, but he was, and drug paraphernalia has been found now? 

Sorry, I'm not demanding that you answer  Just wondering out loud about what the truth of it really is


----------



## girasol (May 2, 2014)

What I never got was why she was alone with baby, and husband was out... Seems odd. Anyway, I hate especulating and now I'm a hypocrite...


----------



## amonkeyscousin? (May 2, 2014)

twentythreedom said:


> Sure, but it doesn't answer my question.



You didn't answer my question. Have some manners, that's how conversation works.


----------



## twentythreedom (May 2, 2014)

amonkeyscousin? said:


> You didn't answer my question. Have some manners, that's how conversation works.


If only


----------



## brogdale (May 2, 2014)

According to the OB....



> This was their normal weekend arrangement, Mr Fotheringham explained, allowing Geldof to concentrate on her work as a columnist.


----------



## amonkeyscousin? (May 2, 2014)

twentythreedom said:


> If only



So ye, what I'm getting at is the hypocracy that exists between legal and illegal drug use. If Peaches Geldoff had died of alcohol poisoning or alclhor related issues, like George best, it would be a tragic tale of self indulgence. However because she was a smack Head somebody  else or the wicked drub  is to blame?


----------



## UrbaneFox (May 2, 2014)

These stories were much easier to follow in the good old days when phone hacking was commonplace.


----------



## phildwyer (May 2, 2014)

amonkeyscousin? said:


> So ye, what I'm getting at is the hypocracy that exists between legal and illegal drug use. If Peaches Geldoff had died of alcohol poisoning or alclhor related issues, like George best, it would be a tragic tale of self indulgence. However because she was a smack Head somebody  else or the wicked drub  is to blame?


 
Thank fuck this utter dickhead is banned now, I was about to lose my temper with him.


----------



## Dr_Herbz (May 3, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Thank fuck this utter dickhead is banned now, I was about to lose my temper with him.


----------



## Greebo (May 3, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Thank fuck this utter dickhead is banned now, I was about to lose my temper with him.


Love your new house, although it's a bit empty right now.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (May 3, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> 5.  This all started with the death of Diana, .



Death of Queen Victoria:







Death of Nasser:







Death of Gandhi:








Death of  Lennon:






Most of the people in those crowds didn't personally know the deceased.


----------



## Cheesypoof (May 3, 2014)

I still think she was a good mother, who had a moment....and that's so tragic.  l i feel the same way about my friend who recently died in similar circumstances....he was a good father...my closest male friends all my life have been heroin addicts, and my Mum is also an addict.

Various friends/ family of mine will never agree but  we all have our opinions, that's okay.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (May 3, 2014)

Cheesypoof said:


> I still think she was a brilliant mother, who had a moment......a fatal one....and that's so tragic..



It is tragic, no doubt: but it wasn't that long ago that she was photographed dumping her kid out of a pram as she talks on a cel phone throughout.


----------



## Cheesypoof (May 3, 2014)

I read that....it didn't look so bad to me....maybe those London roads....


----------



## Cheesypoof (May 3, 2014)

Before anyone says she wasn't a good Mum, I disagree....she was a great Mum and make a serious mistake. But that doesn't take away from her being a fantastic Mum while she was alive.


----------



## Cheesypoof (May 3, 2014)

This is an extreme case and I expect people to show some compassion.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (May 3, 2014)

As far as what phildwyer was talking about - I believe that he's going in the right direction.

Imo, one's parents play a huge role in the lives of their children. I think that children spend a good part of their lives in reaction to their parents - either emulating them unconsciously or consciously; or trying to rebel against them or be the opposite of them, again either consciously or otherwise. To make matters more complicated, they can alternate between copying and rejecting at different times of life. But parents play a major part in what their children will become and what they will do.


----------



## bubblesmcgrath (May 3, 2014)

I feel sorry for Peaches, that she died alone....in what seem to be tragic circumstances. A young woman who had everything in life except her own mother whom she clearly missed dreadfully  
It's a dreadfully sad story...no matter who she is..


----------



## Cheesypoof (May 3, 2014)

Good parents make mistakes.....tragic beyond belief, but we mustnt judge, it was a crazy mistake.


----------



## goldenecitrone (May 3, 2014)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> Death of Queen Victoria:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Positively restrained. The Iranians know a thing or two about mass grief.


----------



## bubblesmcgrath (May 3, 2014)

goldenecitrone said:


> Positively restrained. The Iranians know a thing or two about mass grief.








As do the North Koreans...but their grief source is fear, not empathy......and the Iranians mass outpouring of grief was more likely to be from duty, respect and tradition.


----------



## goldenecitrone (May 3, 2014)

bubblesmcgrath said:


> and the Iranians mass outpouring of grief was more likely to be from duty, respect and tradition.



They look pretty upset to me.


----------



## girasol (May 3, 2014)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> As far as what phildwyer was talking about - I believe that he's going in the right direction.
> 
> Imo, one's parents play a huge role in the lives of their children. I think that children spend a good part of their lives in reaction to their parents - either emulating them unconsciously or consciously; or trying to rebel against them or be the opposite of them, again either consciously or otherwise. To make matters more complicated, they can alternate between copying and rejecting at different times of life. But parents play a major part in what their children will become and what they will do.



I don't think people are disputing whether parents are a big influence.  IMO it was more the way it was said?  Obviously Peache's life was badly affected by her mother's death, sometimes stating the obvious is uncalled for.


----------



## brogdale (May 3, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Thank fuck this utter dickhead is banned now, I was about to lose my temper with him.


 
So what gives you the right to call people dickhead? Anything to do with what you said earlier?



> "...*the fact that I acknowledge myself to be prominent among them gives me licence to do so..."*



Bants aside, are you going to expand upon why you chose to blame the victims of media manipulation in this thread?


----------



## bubblesmcgrath (May 3, 2014)

goldenecitrone said:


> They look pretty upset to me.



They were ordered to cry though and if they didnt cry hard enough they were likely to be fed to rabid dogs ....or be shot...or end up in a concentration camp.


----------



## girasol (May 3, 2014)

The DM is having a feast today   Poor family.


----------



## Corax (May 3, 2014)

bubblesmcgrath said:


> They were ordered to cry though and if they didnt cry hard enough they were likely to be fed to rabid dogs ....or be shot...or end up in a concentration camp.


Or forced to have a bowl haircut. 

Cos that's what happens in North Korea isn't it. All. The. Time.


----------



## bubblesmcgrath (May 3, 2014)

girasol said:


> The DM is having a feast today   Poor family.



 the media are truly miserable cunts....cant stand their constant in your face display of people's misfortune...


----------



## littlebabyjesus (May 3, 2014)

Corax said:


> Or forced to have a bowl haircut.
> 
> Cos that's what happens in North Korea isn't it. All. The. Time.



Well, reports from defectors have said that you were in serious trouble if you did not cry your eyes out in public when Kim Yong-il died. 

This is a country where every home had to by law maintain a wall with photos of the two first Kims on it.


----------



## Corax (May 3, 2014)

William of Walworth said:


> This was happening exactly the same time some of us (includimg Derek) were in the Duke of Edinburgh for our pre-Xmas drink -- I didn't believe it at the time (I admit I thought the rumours were being exaggerated, and I saw no sign of it when I went to get the bus) but turns out to be true.
> 
> Nothing to add to JWH's and hatboy's reactions.


Sure. But that's not the same as repeating as fact the 'fed to rabid dogs' bullshit.


----------



## phildwyer (May 3, 2014)

brogdale said:


> So what gives you the right to call people dickhead?


 
You're right, I shouldn't have called him a dickhead.  Apologies for my intemperance.

I do however believe there was something rum about him.  Something not quite kosher.  A touch of suspicion attached itself to him in my eyes.

And so he has now been banned--permanently, irrevocably and for good.  There are no circumstances under which I will reconsider.  Moreover I believe that his ban is for the best, really, and that he will probably thank us later.

But in any case, he's banned.  That's the reality, and no amount of hand-wringing can change it.


----------



## goldenecitrone (May 3, 2014)

bubblesmcgrath said:


> They were ordered to cry though and if they didnt cry hard enough they were likely to be fed to rabid dogs ....or be shot...or end up in a concentration camp.



In Iran? I don't think so.


----------



## bubblesmcgrath (May 3, 2014)

goldenecitrone said:


> In Iran? I don't think so.


No .. north korea.


----------



## goldenecitrone (May 3, 2014)

bubblesmcgrath said:


> No .. north korea.



Ayatollah Khomeini was Iranian, not North Korean, you dunce.


----------



## bubblesmcgrath (May 3, 2014)

Corax said:


> Sure. But that's not the same as repeating as fact the 'fed to rabid dogs' bullshit.



What do you think happened new boy's uncle? 


Corax said:


> Sure. But that's not the same as repeating as fact the 'fed to rabid dogs' bullshit.



It's called "quan jue". Execution by dogs.


----------



## bubblesmcgrath (May 3, 2014)

goldenecitrone said:


> Ayatollah Khomeini was Iranian, not North Korean, you dunce.



I was talking about North Korea ...
 But you knew that too....


----------



## Corax (May 3, 2014)

bubblesmcgrath said:


> What do you think happened new boy's uncle?


Not that. 

Fuckinell


----------



## littlebabyjesus (May 3, 2014)

Corax said:


> Not that.
> 
> Fuckinell


Who gives a shit about newboy's uncle? He was part of the problem. How about whole families being shipped off to the gulag? Three million starving to death in the 90s in a preventable famine. And yes, people have been executed for listening to foreign media. 

A few people on here have been trying recently to downplay the disgusting nature of the North Korean regime. That's a really misguided thing to do.


----------



## bubblesmcgrath (May 3, 2014)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Who gives a shit about newboy's uncle? He was part of the problem. How about whole families being shipped off to the gulag? Three million starving to death in the 90s in a preventable famine. And yes, people have been executed for listening to foreign media.
> 
> A few people on here have been trying recently to downplay the disgusting nature of the North Korean regime. That's a really misguided thing to do.



Totally in agreement with you  ....


----------



## Corax (May 3, 2014)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Who gives a shit about newboy's uncle? He was part of the problem. How about whole families being shipped off to the gulag? Three million starving to death in the 90s in a preventable famine. And yes, people have been executed for listening to foreign media.
> 
> A few people on here have been trying recently to downplay the disgusting nature of the North Korean regime. That's a really misguided thing to do.


So what?

That has no bearing on bubblesmcgrath repeating fabricated bullshit, *which originated from a Chinese version of The Onion*, as if it's fact.

What you're talking about is the whole fucking point.  There's plenty of genuine reasons for criticism of the regime, without adding in make-believe.  Doing that is exactly what fuels the 'downplaying' you refer to, as it destroys the credibility of real reports.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (May 3, 2014)

Corax said:


> What you're talking about is the whole fucking point.  There's plenty of genuine reasons for criticism of the regime, without adding in make-believe.  Doing that is exactly what fuels the 'downplaying' you refer to, as it destroys the credibility of real reports.



Right, well _real reports _stated that you were in deep shit if you did not mourn sufficiently hard after Kim Jong-il died. That is not from the Chinese version of The Onion.

The substance of what bg was saying is correct - you could end up being arrested for not mourning hard enough, and not just you but the whole of your family could be deported to a camp for it. According to defectors, people were disappeared for not wailing hard and long enough.


----------



## bubblesmcgrath (May 3, 2014)

Corax said:


> So what?
> 
> That has no bearing on bubblesmcgrath repeating fabricated bullshit, *which originated from a Chinese version of The Onion*, as if it's fact.
> 
> What you're talking about is the whole fucking point.  There's plenty of genuine reasons for criticism of the regime, without adding in make-believe.  Doing that is exactly what fuels the 'downplaying' you refer to, as it destroys the credibility of real reports.



I think you have me mixed up with you .... 




Corax said:


> Or forced to have a bowl haircut.
> 
> Cos that's what happens in North Korea isn't it. All. The. Time.




As for my mention of NK..my point was made in relation to mass outpourings of grief. The people of NK were being forced to grieve....or suffer the consequences. 

You may think "execution by dog" is bullshit...but the people of NK face terrors similar to it and far worse.


----------



## Corax (May 3, 2014)

bubblesmcgrath said:


> I think you have me mixed up with you ....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You really don't stop delivering do you?  

I'll repeat:

*There's plenty of genuine reasons for criticism of the regime, without adding in make-believe. Doing that is exactly what fuels the 'downplaying' you refer to, as it destroys the credibility of real reports.*

_That's a good point actually Corax.  I hadn't considered it like that.  I'll check my sources more thoroughly before making a twat of my self again next time.  _


----------



## littlebabyjesus (May 3, 2014)

> The people of NK were being forced to grieve....or suffer the consequences.



This is correct, though.


----------



## Corax (May 3, 2014)

littlebabyjesus said:


> This is correct, though.


That's why it wasn't the point I disagreed with.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (May 3, 2014)

Corax said:


> That's why it wasn't the point I disagreed with.


Ok, well it's the important bit for me. The precise nature of those consequences is a detail, imo - they were very bloody serious, life-ruining consequences, that's what is important.

I also think it is important to stress that North Koreans are not simply brainwashed fools, as some (not you) would characterise them.


----------



## 8ball (May 3, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> ...I incline strongly towards the view that addictive tendencies are very frequently passed from parents to children.  This does *not *of course mean that they are inheritable in any biological sense, a proposition that I deplore.



Those little ribose-based cunts!


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (May 3, 2014)

Corax said:


> Not that.
> 
> Fuckinell




It just wouldn't seem.... proper... would it?

I'll bet they killed him with a slowly-increasing heroin drip.


----------



## LiamO (May 3, 2014)

littlebabyjesus said:


> This is a country where every home had to by law maintain a wall with photos of the two first Kims on it.



Sounds just like Ireland to me. In the 60's every Irish household - at home or abroad - was required to have the Pope and JFK on their wall of their living room ... on pain of social death








*Delirium Tremens*
Christy Moore

I dreamt a dream the other night I couldn’t sleep a wink
The rats were tryin’ to count the sheep and I was off the drink
There were footsteps in the parlour and voices on the stairs
I was climbin’ up the walls and movin’ round the chairs.
I looked out from under the blanket up at the fireplace.
The Pope and John F. Kennedy were starin’ in me face.*
Suddenly it dawned at me I was getting the old D.T.s
When the Child o’ Prague began to dance around the mantlepiece.


----------



## Corax (May 3, 2014)

Gotta love a bit of Christy.


----------



## bubblesmcgrath (May 3, 2014)

Corax said:


> You really don't stop delivering do you?
> 
> I'll repeat:
> 
> ...



Yes...and if you read my initial post you'd have seen that I was referring to the enforced grieving under pain of arrest etc.

Do you think the NK regime incapable of extremes of execution because ... you read it somewhere? I think the NK regime is capable of perpetrating every atrocity known to man on their own people.....



LiamO said:


> Sounds just like Ireland to me. In the 60's every Irish household - at home or abroad - was required to have the Pope and JFK on their wall of their living room ... on pain of social death
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Yeah he he....
....  thankfully that's not happening here anymore.

Many societies have photos of their "leaders" or indeed monarchy in triplicate in homes...

I believe there are people in the some countries who have plates,  mugs, cups etc emblazoned with royal family members in their varying degrees of decrepitude.
Thankfully the Bertie Ahern and Enda Kenny mugs never took off over here.


----------



## equationgirl (May 3, 2014)

goldenecitrone said:


> They look pretty upset to me.


There's almost a competition to see who can show the most grief because if you don't show the right amount you may find yourself in a re-education camp.


----------



## equationgirl (May 3, 2014)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Who gives a shit about newboy's uncle? He was part of the problem. How about whole families being shipped off to the gulag? Three million starving to death in the 90s in a preventable famine. And yes, people have been executed for listening to foreign media.
> 
> A few people on here have been trying recently to downplay the disgusting nature of the North Korean regime. That's a really misguided thing to do.


Three generations of families are shipped out iirc - grandparents, parents and children.


----------



## goldenecitrone (May 3, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> There's almost a competition to see who can show the most grief because if you don't show the right amount you may find yourself in a re-education camp.



At the Ayatollah's funeral? I doubt it.


----------



## Corax (May 3, 2014)

bubblesmcgrath said:


> Do you think the NK regime incapable of extremes of execution because ... you read it somewhere? I think the NK regime is capable of perpetrating every atrocity known to man on their own people.....


What sly misrepresentation. You disingenuous cunt. 

You stated as fact something that is utter bullishit. A false statement that damages the credibility of genuine arguments. And you've not even got the self-respect to simply hold your hands up to it, you have to drag it out into this instead. 

Go on, send out another mass mailing accusing people of harassment.


----------



## girasol (May 3, 2014)

Oh no, not again.


----------



## equationgirl (May 3, 2014)

goldenecitrone said:


> At the Ayatollah's funeral? I doubt it.


No. NORTH KOREA at the state funeral.

Obviously.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (May 3, 2014)

Corax said:


> You stated as fact something that is utter bullishit.



How can you know of a certainty that it's bullshit?


----------



## goldenecitrone (May 3, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> No. NORTH KOREA at the state funeral.
> 
> Obviously.



I posted a youtube clip of the Ayatollah's funeral in Iran and said the people there looked really grief-stricken. Don't know why you're bringing up North Korea in reply to that.


----------



## bubblesmcgrath (May 3, 2014)

Corax said:


> What sly misrepresentation. You disingenuous cunt.
> 
> You stated as fact something that is utter bullishit. A false statement that damages the credibility of genuine arguments. And you've not even got the self-respect to simply hold your hands up to it, you have to drag it out into this instead.
> 
> Go on, send out another mass mailing accusing people of harassment.



?

Whatever.......


----------



## equationgirl (May 3, 2014)

goldenecitrone said:


> I posted a youtube clip of the Ayatollah's funeral in Iran and said the people there looked really grief-stricken. Don't know why you're bringing up North Korea in reply to that.


Because I wasn't responding to your post.


----------



## equationgirl (May 3, 2014)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> How can you know of a certainty that it's bullshit?


Because it's been reported as being untrue in several reputable sources, for example:
http://www.businessinsider.com/kim-...-not-fed-to-a-pack-of-wild-dogs-2014-1#!HNZcC


> A report in a Chinese newspaper subsequently claimed that Jang had been fed to 120 hungry dogs. But, as many people suspected, that's probably not true.
> 
> In a rare interview with Sky News, North Korea's ambassador to the U.K. Hyun Hak-bong said that Jang was put on trial and confessed to what he did wrong.
> 
> ...


----------



## equationgirl (May 3, 2014)

And Corax does have a point - the rabid dogs story has been proven not to be credible and bubblesmcgrath should hold their hands up to reposting information shown to be not credible.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (May 3, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> Because it's been reported as being untrue in several reputable sources, for example:
> http://www.businessinsider.com/kim-jong-uns-uncle-was-shot-not-fed-to-a-pack-of-wild-dogs-2014-1#!HNZcC






> But, as many people suspected, that's *probably* not true.



The question was, how can anyone here know for a certainty that it isn't true?


----------



## equationgirl (May 3, 2014)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> The question was, how can anyone here know for a certainty that it isn't true?


How can we know anything we are not actually present for is true?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (May 3, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> How can we know anything we are not actually present for is true?



Photos, video, recording of whatever type. Eyewitness testimony from trusted sources.

The ex ambassador from North Korea isn't someone whose veracity I'm familiar with.


----------



## bubblesmcgrath (May 3, 2014)

The thing is that "execution by dog" is something that is part of NK criminal justice. It's in their language. Quan jue...Also they have a habit of not telling the rest of the world about the atrocities that are committed there. The NK ambassador to the UK denies the use of this method of execution .....so it must be true .....and even if it is true that the man was not eaten by dogs I think that you Corax have a most disagreeable way of posting and a tendancy to be quite nasty.
Every person agrees that NK has a horrifying human rights history. They deny that there are concentration camps there. They deny mass graves full of NK people who dared to question anything. They force people to mourn...... who knows what else they do?


----------



## equationgirl (May 3, 2014)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> Photos, video, recording of whatever type. Eyewitness testimony from trusted sources.
> 
> The ex ambassador from North Korea isn't someone whose veracity I'm familiar with.


All of those can be tampered with. Eyewitness testimony has been shown to be not necessarily correct.

Anyway, I'd rather talk about Peaches on this thread. Start a new thread if you want to talk about the veracity of reports coming from Communist regimes.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (May 3, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> All of those can be tampered with. Eyewitness testimony has been shown to be not necessarily correct.
> 
> Anyway, I'd rather talk about Peaches on this thread. Start a new thread if you want to talk about the veracity of reports coming from Communist regimes.



This is in the context of a discussion of executions in North Korea - a discussion I didn't start.

Nothing to stop you from continuing to have your say about Peaches, though.


----------



## equationgirl (May 3, 2014)

bubblesmcgrath said:


> The thing is that "execution by dog" is something that is part of NK criminal justice. It's in their language. Quan jue...Also they have a habit of not telling the rest of the world about the atrocities that are committed there. The NK ambassador to the UK denies the use of this method of execution .....so it must be true .....and even if it is true that the man was not eaten by dogs I think that you Corax have a most disagreeable way of posting and a tendancy to be quite nasty.
> Every person agrees that NK has a horrifying human rights history. They deny that there are concentration camps there. They deny mass graves full of NK people who dared to question anything. They force people to mourn...... who knows what else they do?


Being hung drawn and quartered is part of the English language. But that doesn't meant that anybody does it anymore.

Corax isn't a nasty poster, as you would see of you read many of his posts. What he does is disagree with you and with respect, you don't seem to accept that you can possibly be disagreed with in anything you say.

Anyway, as I said to Johnny, I'd rather talk about Peaches on this thread.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (May 3, 2014)

Comments have been made about what sort of mother she was. Hard for any of us to know a lot about that. All I can go by are the photos of her talking on her cel as her baby is lying in the street; and the fact that she od-ed with a child at her side.

Britney Spears was photographed once with her child strapped into the same seatbelt with her. The press and the public went mad with calling her a bad mother.

Funny how the press coddles some celebrities, and crucifies others.


----------



## equationgirl (May 3, 2014)

And the quan jue story is on Snopes as 'False'. Them I believe.
http://www.snopes.com/politics/war/kimjongun.asp


----------



## cesare (May 3, 2014)

There's a North Korea /dprk thread for north korean gossip.


----------



## equationgirl (May 3, 2014)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> Comments have been made about what sort of mother she was. Hard for any of us to know a lot about that. All I can go by are the photos of her talking on her cel as her baby is lying in the street; and the fact that she od-ed with a child at her side.
> 
> Britney Spears was photographed once with her child strapped into the same seatbelt with her. The press and the public went mad with calling her a bad mother.
> 
> Funny how the press coddles some celebrities, and crucifies others.


Given her family history do you think it was a purposeful OD or an accidental one? I'm of the opinion it was the latter - an accident.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (May 3, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> Being hung drawn and quartered is part of the English language. But that doesn't meant that anybody does it anymore.
> 
> Corax isn't a nasty poster, as you would see of you read many of his posts. What he does is disagree with you and with respect, you don't seem to accept that you can possibly be disagreed with in anything you say.
> 
> Anyway, as I said to Johnny, I'd rather talk about Peaches on this thread.



You want to talk about Peaches; but then you tag Corax in order to drag them back into this execution bunfight?


----------



## Frances Lengel (May 3, 2014)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> Comments have been made about what sort of mother she was. Hard for any of us to know a lot about that. All I can go by are the photos of her talking on her cel as her baby is lying in the street; and the fact that she od-ed with a child at her side.
> 
> Britney Spears was photographed once with her child strapped into the same seatbelt with her. The press and the public went mad with calling her a bad mother.
> 
> Funny how the press coddles some celebrities, and crucifies others.


Gotta be said I agree with you there our kid.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (May 3, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> Given her family history do you think it was a purposeful OD or an accidental one? I'm of the opinion it was the latter - an accident.



I really have no clue.

Whichever it was, she purposefully did heroin - with young child at her side.


----------



## UrbaneFox (May 3, 2014)

The Geldofs are the new Kennedys. Obviously this is the Geldof Curse.


----------



## equationgirl (May 3, 2014)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> I really have no clue.
> 
> Whichever it was, she purposefully did heroin - with young child at her side.


And that's not judgemental at all.


----------



## bubblesmcgrath (May 3, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> Given her family history do you think it was a purposeful OD or an accidental one? I'm of the opinion it was the latter - an accident.




Don't know...
The end result is two motherless babies and it's extremely depressing to think that she may have taken her own life...if that's what she did


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (May 3, 2014)

I'm not judging her. I don't know the intimate details of her life. Whatever they are, it's tragic that a young person died.

I just don't understand why some celebrities get raked over the coals, and others almost beatified. Seems to me that there are a lot of parallels between Paris Hilton and Peaches Geldof. Both born into families of wealth, privilege and publicity. Both went a little wild in their early years - except Hilton seems to have come out the other side.

But Hilton is generally excoriated by the press and various sections of the public.


----------



## Frances Lengel (May 3, 2014)

Whether or not she was a good mum, smack users kids have more accidents than your average parents (Tell me honest to god they don't coz they do), but that's not even the point. Fuck it tough, she wasn't that good a mum, imagine if she was yours - No ta.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (May 3, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> And that's not judgemental at all.



It's a fact is all.


----------



## Frances Lengel (May 3, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> And that's not judgemental at all.



I'd judge her for doing that.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (May 3, 2014)

Another sad fact is that the legacy that Peaches' mother left for her - Peaches has now left for her children as well.


----------



## UrbaneFox (May 3, 2014)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> I just don't understand why some celebrities get raked over the coals, and others almost beatified. Seems to me that there are a lot of parallels between Paris Hilton and Peaches Geldof. Both born into families of wealth, privilege and publicity. Both went a little wild in their early years - except Hilton seems to have come out the other side.
> 
> But Hilton is generally excoriated by the press and various sections of the public.



Well I'm definitely going to put Paris Hilton in my celebrity death watch 2015 list. I won't be caught out again. I might include Michael Jackson's children, too, just to be on the safe side.


----------



## Frances Lengel (May 3, 2014)

Anyway, fuck this nonsense - The serious question is why's spymaster still banned - He's an ok guy.


----------



## Cheesypoof (May 5, 2014)

I've been thinking about her husband. what kind of pain must he be in? and her father (I'm a fan of Bob....I've met him before and Peaches, on separate occasions that's neither here nor there....) But God the pain that family is going through (like some families close to my heart).....if there is anything spiritual out there, please help them. Give them strength.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 5, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> Given her family history do you think it was a purposeful OD or an accidental one? I'm of the opinion it was the latter - an accident.



As I said earlier, OD is easy, especially if you're an occasional as opposed to a habitual user.


----------



## goldenecitrone (May 5, 2014)

Has anybody mentioned post-natal depression leading to a deliberate od? Struggling to cope, her husband away and then posting that picture of her and her mum before going.


----------



## Cheesypoof (May 6, 2014)

goldenecitrone said:


> Has anybody mentioned post-natal depression leading to a deliberate od? Struggling to cope, her husband away and then posting that picture of her and her mum before going.



From what we can speculate (which is quite little...) I wouldnt say suicide but I do think the factors you mention above led to taking solace with heroin. Her dealings with her father in law the night before, chatting with friends, and declarations of love for her kids would point to a seriously tragic accident. I do think she had a secret habit/ made a fatal error of judgment though. I read that addicts often over-estimate how much their body can take when they relapse, especially if they have lost lots of weight (like she had...) 

This is a good article
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/may/02/motherhood-peaches-geldof-paula-yates


----------



## girasol (May 6, 2014)

Cheesypoof said:


> From what we can speculate (which is quite little...) I wouldnt say suicide but I do think the factors you mention above led to taking solace with heroin. Her dealings with her father in law the night before, chatting with friends, and declarations of love for her kids would point to a seriously tragic accident. I do think she had a secret habit/ made a fatal error of judgment though. I read that addicts often over-estimate how much their body can take when they relapse, especially if they have lost lots of weight (like she had...)
> 
> This is a good article
> http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/may/02/motherhood-peaches-geldof-paula-yates



This bit is relevant to the thread:

_It's easy to believe that becoming a mother is like entering an enchanted kingdom full of healing and love. When members of the public declared their sorrow at Peaches' death, others suggested that this sorrow was fake and sentimental, another public display of emotional incontinence. Maybe. But who could fail to feel sadness for a girl who tried so hard to defeat her demons, and failed so terminally? So much was beyond her control. But it was plucky to have thrown herself at life so hard. It would have been good if she'd made it._

On the suject of public displays of sorrow when someone dies.  I was watching a doco about Ayrton Senna, who was a bit of a hero for me when I was a teenager.  When he died in 1994 Brazil mourned officially for three days (I was living here already so I didn't experience it first hand).  It was crazier and bigger than anything ever in the UK, and totally spontaneous.  The guy was a national hero.  Some people are just universally inspirational role models, or just strike a chord, I don't think it indicates in any way that people emotionally stunted.

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2014/apr/30/ayrton-senna-death-funeral-formula-one


----------



## Sweet FA (May 6, 2014)

girasol said:


> It was crazier and bigger than anything ever in the UK, and totally spontaneous.


----------



## girasol (May 6, 2014)

I lived here when Diana died, if that's what that photo is...


----------



## Orang Utan (May 6, 2014)

Kensington Palace?


----------



## Corax (May 6, 2014)

Mornington Crescent


----------



## discokermit (May 6, 2014)

UrbaneFox said:


> The Geldofs are the new Kennedys. Obviously this is the Geldof Curse.


no, it's hughie green's bad blood.


----------



## friedaweed (May 7, 2014)

I miss Jazzz


----------



## Citizen66 (May 7, 2014)

She didn't name them, she just tweeted what someone else said ffs.

Prejudicing the trial.

_Yeah, let's get them let off!!! _


----------



## Citizen66 (May 7, 2014)

It has to be a spoof?  ?


----------



## D'wards (Jul 23, 2014)

Peaches was a confirmed heroin addict. Horrible story all round - she managed to keep it from her husband, who was obviously concerned.

Heroin is such a fucker of a drug, it really does destroy lives, its no cliche...

http://www.theguardian.com/culture/2014/jul/23/peaches-geldof-was-heroin-addict-inquest-told


----------



## Belushi (Jul 23, 2014)

Poor woman, such a sad story.


----------



## editor (Jul 23, 2014)

Distressing reading. She had everything but clearly was never happy. 



> Police investigating Geldof's death found "importation quality" heroin stashed in a black cloth bag inside a cupboard over a bedroom door and drugs paraphernalia in the property, the inquest heard.
> 
> The forensic scientist Dr Peter Cain analysed the brown powder found by investigators and concluded that it was 6.91 grams of heroin with a purity of 61%.
> 
> ...


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 24, 2014)

This is such a desperately sad and tragic end to a life that could have been so different. I don't think she ever got over the death of her mother


----------



## Cheesypoof (Jul 24, 2014)

editor said:


> She had everything but clearly was never happy.



Losing her Mum at the age of 11 is hardly having everything...

what a tragic tale.


----------



## editor (Jul 24, 2014)

Cheesypoof said:


> Losing her Mum at the age of 11 is hardly having everything...
> 
> what a tragic tale.


She had a lot more than most. She had a lot more opportunity and money than most, but that doesn't make her death any less tragic though.


----------



## Red Cat (Jul 24, 2014)

editor said:


> She had a lot more than most. She had a lot more opportunity and money than most, but that doesn't make her death any less tragic though.



Seriously?


----------



## girasol (Jul 24, 2014)

what does generally happen to people who sell drugs and someone overdoses from it?  You never seem to hear about who supplies, etc, even though it wouldn't be hard for the police to figure it out...  Always wondered, never found out what happens.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jul 24, 2014)

So she may have oded because it was purer than normal? Sadly familiar tale. Heroin is a fucker of a drug as stated above, but it is the combination of that with the fucker that is prohibition that turns it into a killer.


----------



## girasol (Jul 24, 2014)

littlebabyjesus said:


> So she may have oded because it was purer than normal? Sadly familiar tale. Heroin is a fucker of a drug as stated above, but it is the combination of that with the fucker that is prohibition that turns it into a killer.



Or she took her usual amount but her tolerance had gone...   I read she'd been on methadone and this was a relapse?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jul 24, 2014)

girasol said:


> Or she took her usual amount but her tolerance had gone...   I read she'd been on methadone and this was a relapse?


Yeah maybe. My mate did that. Oded straight outta rehab.


----------



## 5t3IIa (Jul 24, 2014)

girasol said:


> Or she took her usual amount but her tolerance had gone...



That's what the judge was speculating, I read in the Metro 

I don't think saying it's a different kind of 'A Shame' because she supposedly had everything is particularly relevant. I mean, loads of us have, in effect, everything but it doesn't stop us being fucked-up. In fact, she had a whole lot of very important stuff _less _than me as I have my mum.


----------



## twentythreedom (Jul 24, 2014)

I wish I'd known her dealer. She had the good shit


----------



## goldenecitrone (Jul 24, 2014)

5t3IIa said:


> That's what the judge was speculating, I read in the Metro
> 
> I don't think saying it's a different kind of 'A Shame' because she supposedly had everything is particularly relevant. I mean, loads of us have, in effect, everything but it doesn't stop us being fucked-up. In fact, she had a whole lot of very important stuff _less _than me as I have my mum.



And Bob Geldof as a dad. Imagine trying to block that out.


----------



## rutabowa (Jul 24, 2014)

girasol said:


> what does generally happen to people who sell drugs and someone overdoses from it?  You never seem to hear about who supplies, etc, even though it wouldn't be hard for the police to figure it out...  Always wondered, never found out what happens.


i'd say any dealer who was in any way successful wouldn't be traceable to an od. otherwise they wouldn't be in the business long enough to get successful. who knows maybe she bought it off the internet.


----------



## rutabowa (Jul 24, 2014)

twentythreedom said:


> I wish I'd known her dealer. She had the good shit


it definitely wasn't coming of T who hangs around on archway road in the internet cafe or whatever.


----------



## twentythreedom (Jul 24, 2014)

rutabowa said:


> it definitely wasn't coming of T who hangs around on archway road in the internet cafe or whatever.


Heh, definitely not. I know that guy, he's a cunt


----------



## Blagsta (Jul 24, 2014)

editor said:


> She had a lot more than most. She had a lot more opportunity and money than most, but that doesn't make her death any less tragic though.



Just goes to show that money doesn't make up for crappy parenting.


----------



## editor (Jul 24, 2014)

Blagsta said:


> Just goes to show that money doesn't make up for crappy parenting.


Some people can get addicted regardless of how well they were brought up.


----------



## Cheesypoof (Jul 24, 2014)

Blagsta said:


> Just goes to show that money doesn't make up for crappy parenting.



Bob was hardly a crap parent, raising four daughters on his own ....it's not his fault his wife broke up his family, left him, and OD'd..


----------



## D'wards (Jul 24, 2014)

I wonder if a parent dying of drugs means you are more likely or less likely to go the same way? You'd hope less likely, but i'm pretty sure its more likely - especially in the working classes.


----------



## pinkmonkey (Jul 24, 2014)

D'wards said:


> I wonder if a parent dying of drugs means you are more likely or less likely to go the same way? You'd hope less likely, but i'm pretty sure its more likely - especially in the working classes.


I don't think class would come into it at all.


----------



## 8ball (Jul 24, 2014)

pinkmonkey said:


> I don't think class would come into it at all.


 
I think having a bit of money might give you more avenues for getting away from it, but in her walk of life and the showbiz circle, together with being well knonwn, things might well have been harder.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jul 24, 2014)

8ball said:


> I think having a bit of money might give you more avenues for getting away from it, .


Double-edged. Having a bit of money also means less trouble financing it.


----------



## 8ball (Jul 24, 2014)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Double-edged. Having a bit of money also means less trouble financing it.


 
Yeah, fair point.


----------



## pinkmonkey (Jul 24, 2014)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Double-edged. Having a bit of money also means less trouble financing it.


I know of more than one trust fund smackhead. The trust fund enables them to keep caning it whilst the parents keep chucking money at the problem, whilst not getting them the help they need.


----------



## Blagsta (Jul 24, 2014)

editor said:


> Some people can get addicted regardless of how well they were brought up.


Chronic addiction is much more likely if their was abuse or neglect in childhood.


----------



## Blagsta (Jul 24, 2014)

Cheesypoof said:


> Bob was hardly a crap parent, raising four daughters on his own ....it's not his fault his wife broke up his family, left him, and OD'd..



"Crap parenting" was a hasty shorthand for a difficult childhood. Paula had her own mental health problems and her parenting of Peaches was likely chaotic with disrupted attachment.


----------



## Blagsta (Jul 24, 2014)

D'wards said:


> I wonder if a parent dying of drugs means you are more likely or less likely to go the same way? You'd hope less likely, but i'm pretty sure its more likely - especially in the working classes.



Can make it more likely, but there are many contributing factors.  If the family environment is one of drug use as a coping mechanism, then it may make it more likely.


----------



## twentythreedom (Jul 24, 2014)

editor said:


> Some people can get addicted regardless of how well they were brought up.


Yes, they most certainly can


----------



## Cheesypoof (Jul 24, 2014)

Blagsta said:


> "Crap parenting" was a hasty shorthand for a difficult childhood. Paula had her own mental health problems and her parenting of Peaches was likely chaotic with disrupted attachment.



Paula was well regarded as a good mother by all accounts (including Bob himself), but she got into drugs after she met Hutchence....not blaming him either - its an individuals own choice, Peaches included. However, I would agree that her drug of choice was probably connected with the sense of loss without a mother.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 24, 2014)

Yates and Geldof, not Paula and Bob!


----------



## trashpony (Jul 24, 2014)

Peaches was constantly feted as a good mother in the media and look what a load of bollocks that turned out to be


----------



## 5t3IIa (Jul 24, 2014)

Cheesypoof said:


> Paula was well regarded as a good mother by all accounts (including Bob himself), but she got into drugs after she met Hutchence....not blaming him either - its an individuals own choice, Peaches included. However, I would agree that her drug of choice was probably connected with the sense of loss without a mother.



This is terrible Daily Mail ish crap, cheesey. Come on.


----------



## mystic pyjamas (Jul 24, 2014)

Hope that horrible old cow doesn't come on gloating saying "I told you so".
Don't even want to mention her name.
Put me off me tea.


----------



## Cheesypoof (Jul 24, 2014)

5t3IIa said:


> This is terrible Daily Mail ish crap, cheesey. Come on.



not true, i base this on experience of growing up in Ireland, where Paula and Bob were well regarded. The media here isnt as savage as it is in the UK. Paula Yates talked constantly about child rearing when interviewed, even dressing her kids in the same clothes as herself. She also wrote a number of books on motherhood too, before it all went wrong. She was never vilified as a bad mother until after she broke up with Geldof.


----------



## spanglechick (Jul 24, 2014)

Cheesypoof said:


> not true, i base this on experience of growing up in Ireland, where Paula and Bob were well regarded. The media here isnt as savage as it is in the UK. Paula Yates talked constantly about child rearing when interviewed, even dressing her kids in the same clothes as herself. She also wrote a number of books on motherhood too, before it all went wrong. She was never vilified as a bad mother until after she broke up with Geldof.


Perhaps it depends in what you classify "being a good parent" as.  I doubt many ppl would have "dressing like your kids" on the list.


----------



## Cheesypoof (Jul 24, 2014)

spanglechick said:


> Perhaps it depends in what you classify "being a good parent" as.  I doubt many ppl would have "dressing like your kids" on the list.



thats hardly what i mean and you know that...

If people can remember The Tube, the show she hosted with Jools Holland, Paula Yates was a bubbly, intelligent, ascerbic interviewer - quite brilliant. And she had cultivated this 'earth mother' image with Geldof, and appeared to be a bit of a nutter, calling her kids odd names and getting married in a red wedding dress, but in a quirky, good way....she was an extremely popular media figure, and i recall people were surprised and saddened that such a sparky character broke up her family and shattered her 'earth mother' image. She did have this image before she met Hutchence - although maybe some judgmental Urbanites memories are clouded because they solely judge Paula Yates on her drug problems. Certainly looks like it...


----------



## 5t3IIa (Jul 24, 2014)

Cheesypoof said:


> thats hardly what i mean and you know that...
> 
> If people can remember The Tube, the show she hosted with Jools Holland, Paula Yates was a bubbly, intelligent, ascerbic interviewer - quite brilliant. And she had cultivated this 'earth mother' image with Geldof, and appeared to be a bit of a nutter, calling her kids odd names and getting married in a red wedding dress, but in a quirky, good way....she was extremely popular, as i recall people were surprised and saddened that such a sparky character broke up her family and shattered her 'earth mother' image. She did have this image before she met Hutchence - although maybe some judgmental Urbanites memories are clouded because they solely Paula Yates on her drug problems. Certainly looks like it...


*
None of us knew her *and it's the worst kind of bullshit tabloid speculation to pretend to know one single thing about how she lived her life based on The Tube and some toddler's garms.


----------



## twentythreedom (Jul 24, 2014)

Michael Hutchence was a very bad man


----------



## Idris2002 (Jul 24, 2014)

twentythreedom said:


> Michael Hutchence was a very bad man



How, exactly?


----------



## spanglechick (Jul 24, 2014)

Cheesypoof said:


> thats hardly what i mean and you know that...
> 
> If people can remember The Tube, the show she hosted with Jools Holland, Paula Yates was a bubbly, intelligent, ascerbic interviewer - quite brilliant. And she had cultivated this 'earth mother' image with Geldof, and appeared to be a bit of a nutter, calling her kids odd names and getting married in a red wedding dress, but in a quirky, good way....she was an extremely popular media figure, and i recall people were surprised and saddened that such a sparky character broke up her family and shattered her 'earth mother' image. She did have this image before she met Hutchence - although maybe some judgmental Urbanites memories are clouded because they solely Paula Yates on her drug problems. Certainly looks like it...


I do know that and I admit to being flippant, but I did kind of have a point, which is that very few ppl are equipped to judge good parenting [edit- in any specific family], but that the label "good parent" is often awarded erroneously (children being taken into care for horrific abuse and neglect pretty often want to stay and react fiercely to any suggestion that their parent was less than loving). It is also a label appended to a great many tragic figures, including the dead.  Lastly, loving your kids to bits is not the same as being a good parent.  It's very sad but it's true.


----------



## twentythreedom (Jul 24, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> How, exactly?


He did bad things

"Not bad meaning bad but bad meaning good" etc or something obvs

He must have had a ginormous schlong


----------



## Buckaroo (Jul 24, 2014)

twentythreedom said:


> He must have had a ginormous schlong



She described it as 'The Taj Mahal of crotches'


----------



## twentythreedom (Jul 24, 2014)

Buckaroo said:


> She described it as 'The Taj Mahal of crotches'



He definitely put a smile on Kylie's face


----------



## elbows (Jul 24, 2014)

It's always tempting to want to judge parents when such a tragedy occurs and we have been fed enough titbits in the media over the years to feel like we might vaguely know what these people are like. 

I'll try to resist it though, not least because when it comes to deadly drug addictions, we sometimes hear lots about the final chapters and very little about the first ones. Who introduced her to heroin in the first place? Later, did family members react to the addiction in the best way possible, or were there any problems with things like going into denial or being recklessly optimistic?


----------



## Cheesypoof (Jul 24, 2014)

5t3IIa said:


> *None of us knew her *and it's the worst kind of bullshit tabloid speculation to pretend to know one single thing about how she lived her life based on The Tube and some toddler's garms.



Bob Geldof talked about what a good mother Paula Yates was, in his autobiography, 'Is that it?' He also discussed this often in interviews. He worshipped her as a wife and mother. I think that rather than write it off, it is fair enough to presume  that pre-Hutchence she was a pretty good mother. You are being rather dismissive and presumptive, that everything one knows about someone must come from tabloids....


----------



## 5t3IIa (Jul 24, 2014)

Cheesypoof said:


> Bob Geldof talked about what a good mother Paula Yates was, in his autobiography, 'Is that it?' He also discussed this often in interviews. He worshipped her as a wife and mother. I think that rather than write it off, it is fair enough to presume  that pre-Hutchence she was a pretty good mother. You are being rather dismissive and presumptive, that everything one knows about someone must come from tabloids....


I've read enough about you to know you're a drunk.


----------



## spanglechick (Jul 24, 2014)

I know a woman whose partner beats her up. While her children are in the house.  She very fiercely believes that her partner is a good father.   I'm bloody certain she is wrong. 

I don't know enough about either Yates or Peaches Geldof to say for sure, but I think taking heroin while in sole charge of your child, risking your toddler being left alone with your OD'd corpse... while not making you evil and deserving of total condemnation, does suggest bloody shitty parenting.


----------



## bubblesmcgrath (Jul 24, 2014)

5t3IIa said:


> *None of us knew her*





Which makes it all the more cruel that anyone, and I include the media,  would even start to judge her parenting skills....especially now that she is dead and can't reply.


----------



## Poot (Jul 24, 2014)

spanglechick said:


> I know a woman whose partner beats her up. While her children are in the house.  She very fiercely believes that her partner is a good father.   I'm bloody certain she is wrong.
> 
> I don't know enough about either Yates or Peaches Geldof to say for sure, but I think taking heroin while in sole charge of your child, risking your toddler being left alone with your OD'd corpse... while not making you evil and deserving of total condemnation, does suggest bloody shitty parenting.


Not carrying out an activity that can kill you whilst you are solely in charge of your child is, in my opinion, a minimum requirement in parenting.


----------



## Citizen66 (Jul 24, 2014)

Being a smack head doesn't make someone a bad person. It might not make them a bad parent but it kind of does if you fall comatose and there's nobody else about to care for your kids.


----------



## girasol (Jul 24, 2014)

5t3IIa said:


> I've read enough about you to know you're a drunk.



Wtf???


----------



## Numbers (Jul 24, 2014)

girasol said:


> Wtf???


Idiots are always idiots.


----------



## kropotkin (Jul 24, 2014)

.


----------



## 5t3IIa (Jul 24, 2014)

girasol said:


> Wtf???


_I'm making a point. _


----------



## Citizen66 (Jul 24, 2014)

There was a good write up on Cheryl Cole the other week. She sounds fab.


----------



## bubblesmcgrath (Jul 24, 2014)

5t3IIa said:


> _I'm making a point. _





5t3IIa said:


> I've read enough about you to know you're a drunk.




??


----------



## Citizen66 (Jul 24, 2014)

You can't make sound judgements based on things you read. Christ, how obtuse does one need to be?


----------



## ice-is-forming (Jul 24, 2014)

its very sad and unnecessary. I had actually known both bob and paula. both from the 80's when I used to hang with the rats and later when paula started doing the show with jools. zoom forwards a decade and here I am living close by to them again in kent and mixing in some similar circles. dependency happens for some people and until you've walked in those shoes don't dare be condemning her for being a bad mother. dependency doesn't make you a bad mother.


----------



## spanglechick (Jul 24, 2014)

ice-is-forming said:


> its very sad and unnecessary. I had actually known both bob and paula. both from the 80's when I used to hang with the rats and later when paula started doing the show with jools. zoom forwards a decade and here I am living close by to them again in kent and mixing in some similar circles. dependency happens for some people and until you've walked in those shoes don't dare be condemning her for being a bad mother. dependency doesn't make you a bad mother.


what does?  genuine question.


----------



## Numbers (Jul 24, 2014)

ice-is-forming said:


> its very sad and unnecessary. I had actually known both bob and paula. both from the 80's when I used to hang with the rats and later when paula started doing the show with jools. zoom forwards a decade and here I am living close by to them again in kent and mixing in some similar circles. dependency happens for some people and until you've walked in those shoes don't dare be condemning her for being a bad mother. dependency doesn't make you a bad mother.


----------



## Blagsta (Jul 24, 2014)

ice-is-forming said:


> its very sad and unnecessary. I had actually known both bob and paula. both from the 80's when I used to hang with the rats and later when paula started doing the show with jools. zoom forwards a decade and here I am living close by to them again in kent and mixing in some similar circles. dependency happens for some people and until you've walked in those shoes don't dare be condemning her for being a bad mother. dependency doesn't make you a bad mother.



No, dependency doesn't make you a bad mother.  Using whilst having sole responsibility for your children calls your parenting ability into question though.


----------



## girasol (Jul 24, 2014)

5t3IIa said:


> _I'm making a point. _





Citizen66 said:


> You can't make sound judgements based on things you read. Christ, how obtuse does one need to be?



penny drops...  Still, seemed a bit uncalled for at first sight


----------



## Citizen66 (Jul 24, 2014)

ice-is-forming said:


> its very sad and unnecessary. I had actually known both bob and paula. both from the 80's when I used to hang with the rats and later when paula started doing the show with jools. zoom forwards a decade and here I am living close by to them again in kent and mixing in some similar circles. dependency happens for some people and until you've walked in those shoes don't dare be condemning her for being a bad mother. dependency doesn't make you a bad mother.


Well no. As long as your children are cared for it doesn't. But having an OD and nobody else being there to care for your child places the child at risk. Seventeen hours the baby had with nobody there to deal with his needs.


----------



## ice-is-forming (Jul 24, 2014)

spanglechick said:


> what does?  genuine question.


 
physical/emotional abuse, neglect, no food, bruises, domestic violence, rape, incest. want me to go on. I have worked with many abused children and drug dependency is fairly low down on the official list to be concerned about. particularly in this case where money would have been no issue.


----------



## girasol (Jul 24, 2014)

Numbers said:


> Idiots are always idiots.



erm, thanks.  Is that our opinion of me?  Or something else?  

This quoting business can be bewildering.  Please clarify and then I can have a clearer idea.


----------



## spanglechick (Jul 24, 2014)

ice-is-forming said:


> physical/emotional abuse, neglect, no food, bruises, domestic violence, rape, incest. want me to go on. I have worked with many abused children and drug dependency is fairly low down on the official list to be concerned about. particularly in this case where money would have been no issue.


doesn't neglect include taking drugs in sole charge of a toddler, though?


----------



## ice-is-forming (Jul 24, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> Well no. As long as your children are cared for it doesn't. But having an OD and nobody else being there to care for your child places the child at risk. Seventeen hours the baby had with nobody there to deal with his needs.


 
she could have fallen off a kitchen stool and killed herself.


----------



## Blagsta (Jul 24, 2014)

ice-is-forming said:


> physical/emotional abuse, neglect, no food, bruises, domestic violence, rape, incest. want me to go on. I have worked with many abused children and drug dependency is fairly low down on the official list to be concerned about. particularly in this case where money would have been no issue.



Using whilst having children in your sole care is pretty high on the list in this country!  It constitutes neglect.


----------



## Cheesypoof (Jul 24, 2014)

5t3IIa said:


> I've read enough about you to know you're a drunk.



thanks for that.


----------



## girasol (Jul 24, 2014)

making a point on the internet is fraught with dangers and prone to being misinterpreted


----------



## spanglechick (Jul 24, 2014)

ice-is-forming said:


> she could have fallen off a kitchen stool and killed herself.


if she'd been risk taking by, say balancing on a kitchen stool in high heels, then yeah - that would be pretty reckless risk taking.  Had she remained atop the stool for a period of time, not fully responding to the child if it needed her, then ditto.


----------



## ice-is-forming (Jul 24, 2014)

spanglechick said:


> doesn't neglect include taking drugs in sole charge of a toddler, though?


 
If the neglect was intentional? many people have seizures or comas from mis managing a disease, whilst having sole care of their child. does this make them bad parents.


----------



## brogdale (Jul 24, 2014)

spanglechick said:


> doesn't neglect include taking drugs in sole charge of a toddler, though?



I wouldn't have thought so; lord knows I often had a few beers whilst in sole charge of the Broglets...but I'd have thought that there has to be some question over the parenting of the father in this case. Th leave your infant alone with a heroin dependent mother doesn't look too clever.


----------



## Blagsta (Jul 24, 2014)

ice-is-forming said:


> If the neglect was intentional? many people have seizures or comas from mis managing a disease, whilst having sole care of their child. does this make them bad parents.



Unintentional neglect is still neglect.  If someone cannot look after their own health to the point where it puts their children at risk, then yes, it calls their parenting ability into question.  Or at least points to the need for extra support to help them parent.


----------



## girasol (Jul 24, 2014)

Blagsta said:


> Using whilst having children in your sole care is pretty high on the list in this country!  It constitutes neglect.



I have to agree with this.  Also in the report it said her child might have been alone for 17 hours after she died...


----------



## Thora (Jul 24, 2014)

She could have been hit by a meteorite... but she wasn't, she chose to do something with a high risk of death while in sole charge of a baby.  Which is pretty negligent.

Getting smashed on cider while alone with your baby is pretty negligent too.


----------



## Blagsta (Jul 24, 2014)

brogdale said:


> I wouldn't have thought so; lord knows I often had a few beers whilst in sole charge of the Broglets...but I'd have thought that there has to be some question over the parenting of the father in this case. Th leave your infant alone with a heroin dependent mother doesn't look too clever.



Getting extremely pissed in sole charge of a young child is neglect, yes.


----------



## spanglechick (Jul 24, 2014)

ice-is-forming said:


> If the neglect was intentional? many people have seizures or comas from mis managing a disease, whilst having sole care of their child. does this make them bad parents.


if they're consciously/deliberately mis-managing that risk, regardless of the resultant impairment of their responsiveness or chance of death the fuck yes, that's neglectful.


----------



## Thora (Jul 24, 2014)

ice-is-forming said:


> If the neglect was intentional? many people have seizures or comas from mis managing a disease, whilst having sole care of their child. does this make them bad parents.


Few people WANT to neglect their children or be unsafe parents, most people love their children, but doing things that put your children at significant risk whether deliberately or not does constitute poor parenting.


----------



## spanglechick (Jul 24, 2014)

brogdale said:


> I wouldn't have thought so; lord knows I often had a few beers whilst in sole charge of the Broglets...but I'd have thought that there has to be some question over the parenting of the father in this case. Th leave your infant alone with a heroin dependent mother doesn't look too clever.


want to compare the death rates between 'a few beers' and 'intravenous heroin use'...?


----------



## Citizen66 (Jul 24, 2014)

girasol said:


> penny drops...  Still, seemed a bit uncalled for at first sight


The harshest points are the ones most likely to make the home run. But yeah.


----------



## brogdale (Jul 24, 2014)

spanglechick said:


> want to compare the death rates between 'a few beers' and 'intravenous heroin use'...?


 
Oh yes, but I was responding to the notion of "use" per se. The simple fact of using whilst parenting cannot possibly be seen as neglect. Abuse to the point of incapacity or death is obviously different.


----------



## Blagsta (Jul 24, 2014)

brogdale said:


> Oh yes, but I was responding to the notion of "use" per se. The simple fact of using whilst parenting cannot possibly be seen as neglect. Abuse to the point of incapacity or death is obviously different.



Using while having sole responsibility for young children constitutes neglect. If someone is out of it, then their judgement is impaired and they are emotionally unavailable.


----------



## Citizen66 (Jul 24, 2014)

Thora said:


> She could have been hit by a meteorite... but she wasn't, she chose to do something with a high risk of death while in sole charge of a baby.  Which is pretty negligent.
> 
> Getting smashed on cider while alone with your baby is pretty negligent too.


If she fucked off to the pub and left the baby indoors alone for a couple of hours everyone would be appalled. But compared with a fatal OD, at least she was coming back to care for him.


----------



## spanglechick (Jul 24, 2014)

brogdale said:


> Oh yes, but I was responding to the notion of "use" per se. The simple fact of using whilst parenting cannot possibly be seen as neglect. Abuse to the point of incapacity or death is obviously different.


tbf, i'd also say that being a parent and pursuing an insanely dangerous hobby like juggling chainsaws or climbing everest in a bikini is pretty shit parenting too.


----------



## bubblesmcgrath (Jul 24, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> The harshest points are the ones most likely to make the home run. But yeah.



Hmmm.....I dont think the point needed to be made at someone else's expense.


----------



## brogdale (Jul 24, 2014)

Blagsta said:


> Using while having sole responsibility for young children constitutes neglect. If someone is out of it, then their judgement is impaired and they are emotionally unavailable.


 Using what? Everything? Including Bishop's Finger?


----------



## Citizen66 (Jul 24, 2014)

bubblesmcgrath said:


> Hmmm.....I dont think the point needed to be made at someone else's expense.


Why was it at someone else's expense?


----------



## Blagsta (Jul 24, 2014)

brogdale said:


> Using what? Everything? Including Bishop's Finger?



The topic is heroin.  Using heroin.  But also using any drug to the point of incapacity/impaired judgement.


----------



## Citizen66 (Jul 24, 2014)

Bang to rights here...


----------



## Thora (Jul 24, 2014)

brogdale said:


> Using what? Everything? Including Bishop's Finger?


Being so drunk that you're out of it while caring for a baby is a pretty big problem too isn't it?


----------



## brogdale (Jul 24, 2014)

Blagsta said:


> The topic is heroin.  Using heroin.  But also using any drug to the point of incapacity/impaired judgement.


 Oh OK. It's just that the comment earlier that said "using" seemed pretty open-ended. Even on the specifics of heroin I'd have thought that there have been many addicts in the past that might well have been able to parent quite competently? I'd go back to my earlier point about the father though; was it good parenting to leave the infant with her alone? I'm assuming he wasn't using as well?


----------



## Citizen66 (Jul 24, 2014)

Thora said:


> Being so drunk that you're out of it while caring for a baby is a pretty big problem too isn't it?


Well social services and the police seem to think so.


----------



## Citizen66 (Jul 24, 2014)

brogdale said:


> Oh OK. It's just that the comment earlier that said "using" seemed pretty open-ended. Even on the specifics of heroin I'd have thought that there have been many addicts in the past that might well have been able to parent quite competently? I'd go back to my earlier point about the father though; was it good parenting to leave the infant with her alone? I'm assuming he wasn't using as well?


Christ, he thought she was clean. Is he accountable for her actions?


----------



## spanglechick (Jul 24, 2014)

brogdale said:


> Oh OK. It's just that the comment earlier that said "using" seemed pretty open-ended. Even on the specifics of heroin I'd have thought that there have been many addicts in the past that might well have been able to parent quite competently? I'd go back to my earlier point about the father though; was it good parenting to leave the infant with her alone? I'm assuming he wasn't using as well?


assumes that he knew.  the responsibility is hers.


----------



## brogdale (Jul 24, 2014)

Thora said:


> Being so drunk that you're out of it while caring for a baby is a pretty big problem too isn't it?


 Yeah, but my point was that I could handle a couple of Bishop's (use) and still parent effectively. Geddit?


----------



## brogdale (Jul 24, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> Christ, he thought she was clean. Is he accountable for her actions?


 I wasn't aware of that. Is that so?


----------



## bubblesmcgrath (Jul 24, 2014)

Blagsta said:


> The topic is heroin.  Using heroin.  But also using any drug to the point of incapacity/impaired judgement.



The topic is a 25 yr old young mother who died of a self administered overdose of heroin and who also seems to have been depressed. The two of these could be inextricably linked dont you think?


----------



## brogdale (Jul 24, 2014)

bubblesmcgrath said:


> The topic is a 25 yr old young mother who died of a self administered overdose of heroin and who also seems to have been depressed. The two of these could be inextricably linked dont you think?


 Did the report suggest she was depressed as well?


----------



## Citizen66 (Jul 24, 2014)

brogdale said:


> I wasn't aware of that. Is that so?


Apparently this was a relapse. He went away for the weekend, his parents had both children on the Saturday night IIRC and returned the baby to her on the Sunday. She ODed when alone with the baby. He returned to find her body. I may have days mixed up but not times.


----------



## Thora (Jul 24, 2014)

bubblesmcgrath said:


> The topic is a 25 yr old young mother who died of a self administered overdose of heroin and who also seems to have been depressed. The two of these could be inextricably linked dont you think?


To be honest I don't think killing yourself while alone with your baby is great parenting either.


----------



## Citizen66 (Jul 24, 2014)

You avoided my question Bubbles.


----------



## brogdale (Jul 24, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> Apparently this was a relapse. He went away for the weekend, his parents had both children on the Saturday night IIRC and returned the baby to her on the Sunday. She ODed when alone with the baby. He returned to find her body. I may have days mixed up but not times.


 And did he claim not to know she had any gear?


----------



## Thora (Jul 24, 2014)

brogdale said:


> And did he claim not to know she had any gear?


I think I read somewhere that he had confronted her and she had retrieved some she had hidden and flushed it in front of him.  He didn't know she had/obtained more.


----------



## Citizen66 (Jul 24, 2014)

brogdale said:


> And did he claim not to know she had any gear?


Apparently the reason why there was a media blackout surrounding the cause of death (the drugs aspect was hushed for ages) was to rule out the involvement of others.


----------



## clicker (Jul 24, 2014)

brogdale said:


> And did he claim not to know she had any gear?


 The newspaper said it had all been hidden in the loft and she had been telling him that her tests were coming back clean... he knew she relapsed in february and in front of him she flushed the gear down the toilet and then he thought she had gone on a rehab program.


----------



## Citizen66 (Jul 24, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> Why was it at someone else's expense?


bubblesmcgrath


----------



## Citizen66 (Jul 24, 2014)

If it's at someone else's expense, then there'd have to be some truth to it. But it could also be a hypothetical proposition. I find it interesting that this supposedly new poster leapt for the former rather than assumed the latter. The game's up, Bubbles.  Try harder.


----------



## Blagsta (Jul 24, 2014)

brogdale said:


> Oh OK. It's just that the comment earlier that said "using" seemed pretty open-ended. Even on the specifics of heroin I'd have thought that there have been many addicts in the past that might well have been able to parent quite competently? I'd go back to my earlier point about the father though; was it good parenting to leave the infant with her alone? I'm assuming he wasn't using as well?



Yes, as I said earlier, being an addict does not mean you are a bad parent.  Using while in sole charge of a young child (with no sober carer around) is not good parenting.


----------



## Blagsta (Jul 24, 2014)

bubblesmcgrath said:


> The topic is a 25 yr old young mother who died of a self administered overdose of heroin and who also seems to have been depressed. The two of these could be inextricably linked dont you think?



Yes.


----------



## brogdale (Jul 24, 2014)

Blagsta said:


> Yes, as I said earlier, being an addict does not mean you are a bad parent.  Using while in sole charge of a young child (with no sober carer around) is not good parenting.


 Yep.


----------



## Citizen66 (Jul 24, 2014)

ice-is-forming said:


> she could have fallen off a kitchen stool and killed herself.


By using it as a step ladder or by just sitting there? Interesting how you're trying to justify one thing by comparing it to something else. She could minimise risk to her kids by not doing smack when alone with them. I guess she could avoid sitting on stools too. Like it's comparable.


----------



## Poot (Jul 24, 2014)

I have every sympathy for her, and as others have said, being a user doesn't necessarily mean you're a bad parent. I also have every sympathy for alcoholics, until they decide to get into a car and drive.


----------



## Red Cat (Jul 24, 2014)

ice-is-forming said:


> If the neglect was intentional? many people have seizures or comas from mis managing a disease, whilst having sole care of their child. does this make them bad parents.



I think one of the problems with this kind of discussion is that saying that particular actions are bad parenting can then easily become this person is a bad parent, which seems like a fixed thing, you're a good parent or a bad parent, and people will argue for or against. The truth is that even the best parents sometimes do poor parenting because being a parent isn't a thing one is, or a skill set one possesses, it's a relationship, and sometimes we relate well, and sometimes we don't so well, but sometimes when a child's need for relationship isn't met by an available adult it becomes neglect. This is one of those times - the neglect is of the child's needs and the intention doesn't change those circumstances one way or the other.


----------



## Citizen66 (Jul 24, 2014)

I guess there's a fair few drunk drivers who aren't alcoholics! But yeah, the issue isn't the using heroin but using it to the point you can't care for your kids and especially with infants. If you become comatosed they're at risk. The drug that takes you there is irrelevant.


----------



## Citizen66 (Jul 24, 2014)

Red Cat said it better.


----------



## bubblesmcgrath (Jul 24, 2014)

brogdale said:


> Did the report suggest she was depressed as wellu?



If by "report", you mean the inquest, then you will know that it only discloses the cause of her death as ruled by the coroner.
But in the two months leading up to her death, something brought her from being a mother who was trying to do her best, to a woman who recommenced taking heroin. The dosage she died from was reported to be ten times the dose that killed her own mother. She posted a picture of her mother with her as a child, less than 24 hours before her own death. Who knows what was going on in her head? But one thing is certain, her own childhood was far from normal, and she had gone through her own suffering as she grew up... 

If she had left the child alone and headed out to a heroin party with a group of friends.....then maybe people could comment on her actions as being those of a mother of a child who was neglected.

I just see a human tragedy bred from another human tragedy...


----------



## Blagsta (Jul 24, 2014)

bubblesmcgrath said:


> If by "report", you mean the inquest, then you will know that it only discloses the cause of her death as ruled by the coroner.
> But in the two months leading up to her death, something brought her from being a mother who was trying to do her best, to a woman who recommenced taking heroin. The dosage she died from was reported to be ten times the dose that killed her own mother. She posted a picture of her mother with her as a child, less than 24 hours before her own death. Who knows what was going on in her head? But one thing is certain, her own childhood was far from normal, and she had gone through her own suffering as she grew up...
> 
> If she had left the child alone and headed out to a heroin party with a group of friends.....then maybe people could comment on her actions as being those of a mother of a child who was neglected.
> ...




Yes, it was a tragedy and yes of course there are many factors that contributed to it, her own childhood and her relationship with her mother seemingly quite major factors.   Doesn't change the fact that to IV heroin while in sole charge of a young child is a neglectful action.


----------



## twentythreedom (Jul 24, 2014)

The husband would surely, if he has any wits about him, have strong suspicions she was still using. She would've been pinned, gouching etc etc. Hiding an active addiction from a partner is difficult, or impossible if they know what to look out for.

Mind you, I'm not meaning to point a finger at him. Poor bloke


----------



## Blagsta (Jul 24, 2014)

twentythreedom said:


> The husband would surely, if he has any wits about him, have strong suspicions she was still using. She would've been pinned, gouching etc etc. Hiding an active addiction from a partner is difficult, or impossible if they know what to look out for.
> 
> Mind you, I'm not meaning to point a finger at him. Poor bloke



From the reports I've read, I'm not sure she was in active addiction.  Seemed more like a lapse than a relapse to me.


----------



## twentythreedom (Jul 24, 2014)

Blagsta said:


> From the reports I've read, I'm not sure she was in active addiction.  Seemed more like a lapse than a relapse to me.


The amount of drugs, needles, citric, spoons etc suggest more than a relapse to me tbh.


----------



## Ax^ (Jul 24, 2014)

twentythreedom said:


> The husband would surely, if he has any wits about him, have strong suspicions she was still using. She would've been pinned, gouching etc etc. Hiding an active addiction from a partner is difficult, or impossible if they know what to look out for.
> 
> Mind you, I'm not meaning to point a finger at him. Poor bloke



recovering addict with a stash of 61 percent pure heroin..

not hard to do the math about what happened


----------



## Blagsta (Jul 24, 2014)

twentythreedom said:


> The amount of drugs, needles, citric, spoons etc suggest more than a relapse to me tbh.



Yeah, fairynuff actually.  Who knows really, people do manage to hide addictions.


----------



## twentythreedom (Jul 24, 2014)

Ax^ said:


> recovering addict with a stash of 61 percent pure heroin..
> 
> not hard to do the math about what happened


She ODed, we know that. 

What math?


----------



## Ax^ (Jul 24, 2014)

nothing just sound more like she lapsed under estimated what effect this would have on her bodies tolerance


----------



## twentythreedom (Jul 24, 2014)

Blagsta said:


> Yeah, fairynuff actually.  Who knows really, people do manage to hide addictions.


I've done it myself and been on the other side of it too. You can hold it down to a certain extent but there's always signs. In a close, loving, honest relationship there is no way to keep it hidden forever


----------



## Looby (Jul 24, 2014)

twentythreedom said:


> The amount of drugs, needles, citric, spoons etc suggest more than a relapse to me tbh.



My housemate had shitloads of heroin and crack plus a bag full of needles etc and his was a deliberate OD so that doesn't necessarily mean anything.


----------



## twentythreedom (Jul 24, 2014)

sparklefish said:


> My housemate had shitloads of heroin and crack plus a bag full of needles etc and his was a deliberate OD so that doesn't necessarily mean anything.


So you agree with me then


----------



## Citizen66 (Jul 24, 2014)

Blagsta said:


> From the reports I've read, I'm not sure she was in active addiction.  Seemed more like a lapse than a relapse to me.


Does appear to be a blip. Although the authorities finding a lump of import-grade smack suggests a one off boot wasn't intended.


----------



## Looby (Jul 24, 2014)

twentythreedom said:


> So you agree with me then



Did I misunderstand you? Probably. 

Did you mean you think it was a deliberate OD?


----------



## Blagsta (Jul 24, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> Does appear to be a blip. Although the authorities finding a lump of import-grade smack suggests a one off bump wasn't intended.




Reading the article on the Independent website, she did seem to have been using on and off.


----------



## Citizen66 (Jul 24, 2014)

twentythreedom said:


> I've done it myself and been on the other side of it too. You can hold it down to a certain extent but there's always signs. In a close, loving, honest relationship there is no way to keep it hidden forever


You can hide a relapse pretty well if the other party is elsewhere furnished with the knowledge that you're apparently clean. What's he supposed to do? Give up his life and not trust her? Where does the rent come from?


----------



## twentythreedom (Jul 24, 2014)

sparklefish said:


> Did I misunderstand you? Probably.
> 
> Did you mean you think it was a deliberate OD?


No

Just that the amount of drugs / kit suggests more long term use than a relapse.


----------



## twentythreedom (Jul 24, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> You can hide a relapse pretty well if the other party is elsewhere furnished with the knowledge that you're apparently clean. What's he supposed to do? Give up his life and not trust her? Where does the rent come from?


Knowledge?

The rest of your questions are a bit shit - rent etc, fuck knows.


----------



## Citizen66 (Jul 24, 2014)

Blagsta said:


> Reading the article on the Independent website, she did seem to have been using on and off.


Well it could be either relapse with lowered tolerance for the OD or one off with stronger gear. Same net result either way.


----------



## Looby (Jul 24, 2014)

twentythreedom said:


> No
> 
> Just that the amount of drugs / kit suggests more long term use than a relapse.



Ah right, I wasn't agreeing with you then. 

My mate hadn't used for years til he scored that day. I'm 100% sure it was suicide but he still had loads of gear etc left and that seemed to make his family think it was an accident despite the notes and the enormous amount he injected.

I'm out of my depth here as I know very little about addiction, just that it didn't mean long term use in my mate's case. 

I'm not saying she was trying to kill herself either though. 

Oh, god shut me up!


----------



## Citizen66 (Jul 24, 2014)

twentythreedom said:


> Knowledge?
> 
> The rest of your questions are a bit shit - rent etc, fuck knows.


Why is it 'shit'? Apparently you're laying blame at his door for her problems. Which is typical of enabling and justifying use. Scrutinise yourself here I think.


----------



## twentythreedom (Jul 24, 2014)

sparklefish said:


> Ah right, I wasn't agreeing with you then.
> 
> My mate hadn't used for years til he scored that day. I'm 100% sure it was suicide but he still had loads of gear etc left and that seemed to make his family think it was an accident despite the notes and the enormous amount he injected.
> 
> ...


Sorry to hear you experienced something so tragic


----------



## Looby (Jul 24, 2014)

twentythreedom said:


> Sorry to hear you experienced something so tragic



Cheers.  It was a long time ago but massively tragic for him and his lovely parents. This isn't the thread for it but the poor bloke's story covers adoption, addiction, true love, murder and more. Poor fucker never stood a chance.

We found him which was shit, especially as our last conversation was a row about socks!


----------



## twentythreedom (Jul 24, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> Why is it 'shit'? Apparently you're laying blame at his door for her problems. Which is typical of enabling and justifying use. Scrutinise yourself here I think.


Nah you can shove that up your hole.

I simply suggest there would likely have been signs that he could've read that she was in active addiction. 

Fuck this, we'll never know what went on behind closed doors


----------



## twentythreedom (Jul 24, 2014)

Dp and can't erase this ->


----------



## Citizen66 (Jul 24, 2014)

twentythreedom said:


> Nah you can shove that up your hole.
> 
> I simply suggest there would likely have been signs that he could've read that she was in active addiction.
> 
> Fuck this, we'll never know what went on behind closed doors


He's stated he believed she was clean. You appear to be suggesting that he should give up his structured life - presumably that he gets paid for - in order to be there constantly in case she fucks up. Sounds grand that, what if they need the money?

Shove that up your fucking hole.


----------



## D'wards (Jul 24, 2014)

She was on Methadone I think it said in The Guardian.

Maybe with the husband being away and kids at their grandparents for the night she thought she'd have a bit of a weekend blow out and get back to the methadone when he came back, but as stated above the purity and loss of tolerance tipped her over the edge


----------



## Thora (Jul 24, 2014)

D'wards said:


> She was on Methadone I think it said in The Guardian.
> 
> Maybe with the husband being away and kids at their grandparents for the night she thought she'd have a bit of a weekend blow out and get back to the methadone when he came back, but as stated above the purity and loss of tolerance tipped her over the edge


Only one child was away, she had the baby with her.


----------



## Citizen66 (Jul 24, 2014)

D'wards said:


> She was on Methadone I think it said in The Guardian.
> 
> Maybe with the husband being away and kids at their grandparents for the night she thought she'd have a bit of a weekend blow out and get back to the methadone when he came back, but as stated above the purity and loss of tolerance tipped her over the edge


Actually, as far as speculation goes, that sounds a fair assessment.


----------



## twentythreedom (Jul 24, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> He's stated he believed she was clean. You appear to be suggesting that he should give up his structured life - presumably that he gets paid for - in order to be there constantly in case she fucks up. Sounds grand that, what if they need the money?
> 
> Shove that up your fucking hole.


I appear to be suggesting a fuck load of stuff I didn't say but you appear to be reading.

This smiley isn't for you, I can't delete it, but have it anyway


----------



## brogdale (Jul 24, 2014)

Thora said:


> Only one child was away, she had the baby with her.


 
Exactly.


----------



## D'wards (Jul 24, 2014)

Thora said:


> Only one child was away, she had the baby with her.


Hmm, thought process may have been the same. No one around to see her on it apart from a baby who would not notice the difference presumably.


----------



## D'wards (Jul 24, 2014)

Thora said:


> Only one child was away, she had the baby with her.


She had the baby when she died, which was Sunday night, but was out with friends Friday and home alone Saturday night watching True Detective, which was maybe when she thought she'd have a binge, which carried on Sunday night too when she died


----------



## Red Cat (Jul 24, 2014)

D'wards said:


> Hmm, thought process may have been the same. No one around to see her on it apart from a baby who would not notice the difference presumably.



You think the baby wouldn't have noticed?


----------



## twentythreedom (Jul 24, 2014)

doledosser2 said:


> Ye and it would have been you whose death wouldn't have been splashed all over the papers!


Well we'll never know that, will we?


----------



## twentythreedom (Jul 24, 2014)

doledosser2 said:


> I hope the po po don't look on here


Plod is all over this place, everyone knows that


----------



## Citizen66 (Jul 24, 2014)

twentythreedom said:


> I appear to be suggesting a fuck load of stuff I didn't say but you appear to be reading.
> 
> This smiley isn't for you, I can't delete it, but have it anyway


It isn't difficult to edit a post. 

Or perhaps it is for someone who now isn't prepared to commit to their own argument.


----------



## albionism (Jul 24, 2014)

How on earth does one hide a herion addiction from one's family?
I can barely get away with having the odd spliff on the sly.


----------



## Citizen66 (Jul 24, 2014)

albionism said:


> How on earth does one hide a herion addiction from one's family?
> I can barely get away with having the odd spliff on the sly.


At least your breath doesn't reek like with booze but pinned eyes are a clue as are tracking marks if IVing and general chaos always surrounds addiction.


----------



## twentythreedom (Jul 24, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> It isn't difficult to edit a post.
> 
> Or perhaps it is for someone who now isn't prepared to commit to their own argument.


Fuck off, I couldn't delete the smiley, believe it or don't. 

What is my argument that you mention?


----------



## D'wards (Jul 24, 2014)

Red Cat said:


> You think the baby wouldn't have noticed?


Well no, depending on how old he is


----------



## Blagsta (Jul 24, 2014)

D'wards said:


> Well no, depending on how old he is



Babies aren't blobs.


----------



## UrbaneFox (Jul 25, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> You avoided my question Bubbles.



I don't know what you're talking about but then, that's what happens when you put someone on ignore.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Jul 25, 2014)

Blagsta said:


> Babies aren't blobs.



Here's one that is


----------



## Ax^ (Jul 25, 2014)

twentythreedom said:


> Plod is all over this place, everyone knows that



aye just because we eat babies


----------



## Red Cat (Jul 25, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> It isn't difficult to edit a post.
> 
> Or perhaps it is for someone who now isn't prepared to commit to their own argument.



I can't delete smilies on my phone either.


----------



## Red Cat (Jul 25, 2014)

D'wards said:


> Well no, depending on how old he is



He'd have noticed if the person he most depends on was in a very different state and not available to him.


----------



## D'wards (Jul 25, 2014)

Red Cat said:


> He'd have noticed if the person he most depends on was in a very different state and not available to him.


This is true, but he would not have been able to grass her up to his dad would he? Mummy would have just seemed a bit tired, if all had gone to plan...


----------



## trashpony (Jul 25, 2014)

D'wards said:


> This is true, but he would not have been able to grass her up to his dad would he? Mummy would have just seemed a bit tired, if all had gone to plan...


So does that make it alright?  Not sure what point you're making here.


----------



## D'wards (Jul 25, 2014)

trashpony said:


> So does that make it alright?  Not sure what point you're making here.


 Sigh, when did I say it was alright?
We were speculating on what may have occurred, clearly.
Rust and Marty would have a field day with all the straw men around here...


----------



## trashpony (Jul 25, 2014)

D'wards said:


> Sigh, when did I say it was alright?
> We were speculating on what may have occurred, clearly.
> Rust and Marty would have a field day with all the straw men around here...


Are we? I thought we were discussing whether shooting up when you have sole care of a baby is being a good parent/what effect that may have had on the baby.


----------



## D'wards (Jul 25, 2014)

trashpony said:


> Are we? I thought we were discussing whether shooting up when you have sole care of a baby is being a good parent/what effect that may have had on the baby.


 Nope, definitely some speculation on the circumstances.


----------



## rutabowa (Jul 25, 2014)

doledosser2 said:


> I hope the po po don't look on here


Yuh soz T


----------



## rutabowa (Jul 25, 2014)

albionism said:


> How on earth does one hide a herion addiction from one's family?
> I can barely get away with having the odd spliff on the sly.


It is much easier to hide than smoking weed. You can literally be virtually doing it right in front of someone and they dont notice (unless they're on it themselves)


----------



## Citizen66 (Jul 25, 2014)

Pinned eyes gouging out and tracking marks are a bit of a give away though.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 25, 2014)

Gouging out?


----------



## DotCommunist (Jul 25, 2014)

gouch autocorrected i believe


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 25, 2014)

gouched?


----------



## D'wards (Jul 25, 2014)

Yes, what is pinning and gouging?

I can get pinning, I think, but gouging out sounds horrific


----------



## Betsy (Jul 25, 2014)

Thora said:


> Only one child was away, *she had the baby with her.*


Who was left to his own devices,in another room, for up to 15 hours the Coroner’s Court heard....the poor mite.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jul 25, 2014)

D'wards said:


> Yes, what is pinning and gouging?
> 
> I can get pinning, I think, but gouging out sounds horrific



gouching. It just means being proper out of it on smack

pinning is the act of using a needle


----------



## alan_ (Jul 25, 2014)

spanglechick said:


> want to compare the death rates between 'a few beers' and 'intravenous heroin use'...?



Figures from 2011
Alcohol... 8,748 
Heroin...355
Tobacco at 79,100 would seem to be the least safe

from this site

http://www.drugscope.org.uk/resources/faqs/faqpages/how-many-people-die-from-drugs


----------



## twentythreedom (Jul 25, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> gouching. It just means being proper out of it on smack
> 
> pinning is the act of using a needle


Being pinned = tiny pupils (eyes, not students) : pinholes


----------



## DotCommunist (Jul 25, 2014)

twentythreedom said:


> Being pinned = tiny pupils (eyes, not students) : pinholes




ah, everyday is a schoolday. A sordid heroin slang schoolday.


----------



## D'wards (Jul 25, 2014)

I see. So what's nodding out? And what are tea shades, man?


----------



## D'wards (Jul 25, 2014)

alan_ said:


> Figures from 2011
> Alcohol... 8,748
> Heroin...355
> Tobacco at 79,100 would seem to be the least safe


 But what are the figures from people who actually use these things, is more pertinent.

This makes it seem like Heroin is benign, but if 5% of people that actually take it die from it or something then its pretty bad.


----------



## spanglechick (Jul 25, 2014)

alan_ said:


> Figures from 2011
> Alcohol... 8,748
> Heroin...355
> Tobacco at 79,100 would seem to be the least safe
> ...


ok - that's not "a few beers" is it?  The "a few beers" classification wasn't mine, btw - it was given by the person I was responding to as being a comparable level of parenting risk-taking.

also - to compare the "rate" of something you need to compare how many die per number of people doing the thing.

so - how many deaths per (for example) 100,000 intravenous heroin users compared to how many deaths per 100,000 people who would drink " a few beers".

the pure numbers you give are comparatively small for heroin, because a tiny proportion of the population take heroin compared to the proportion who drink alcohol in whatever quantity.  Alcohol is a dangerous drug, not least because of it's social ubiquity in our culture...  but you'd be very wrong-headed indeed to imagine that heroin is 'safer'.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jul 25, 2014)

You also need to look at how those 355 people died. How many of those were preventable deaths caused by the lack of a reliable source? Quite a few, I would suggest.


----------



## spanglechick (Jul 25, 2014)

littlebabyjesus said:


> You also need to look at how those 355 people died. How many of those were preventable deaths caused by the lack of a reliable source? Quite a few, I would suggest.
> 
> With a reliable source, heroin may very well be safer.


almost certainly true - but irrelevant as to why the subject came up in the first place, which was - "is it a bad parenting choice to take iv heroin while in sole charge of a young child?"   Given that this parenting choice happened in the context of prohibition, there's not much value in speculating otherwise.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 25, 2014)

twentythreedom said:


> Michael Hutchence was a very bad man



His Mick Jagger stylings were certainly a crime against copyright.


----------



## Thora (Jul 25, 2014)

Betsy said:


> Who was left to his own devices,in another room, for up to 15 hours the Coroner’s Court heard....the poor mite.


Extremely lucky that baby wasn't seriously physically harmed then


----------



## krtek a houby (Jul 25, 2014)

I think the tone of this morning's Metro is quite judgemental; "Peaches' baby son left alone up to 17 hours"


DotCommunist said:


> ah, everyday is a schoolday. *A sordid heroin slang schoolday*.



See also "Zammo"


----------



## bubblesmcgrath (Jul 25, 2014)

krtek a houby said:


> I think the tone of this morning's Metro is quite judgemental; "Peaches' baby son left alone up to 17 hours"



Yes...a lot if judging going on.

Just to clarify. ..
"Peaches' baby son left alone up to 17 hours *after* *her* *death*"


----------



## Sue (Jul 25, 2014)

bubblesmcgrath said:


> Yes...a lot if judging going on.
> 
> Just to clarify. ..
> "Peaches' baby son left alone up to 17 hours *after* *her* *death*"


Oh well,  that's okay then.


----------



## bubblesmcgrath (Jul 25, 2014)

Sue said:


> Oh well,  that's okay then.



With respect......my point, which may have been missed, is as follows:

Statements are being made that she left her son on his own for 15-17 hours and comments are being made on foot of this, that she was neglectful.......when in actual fact she was dead. It's fair to point that out. I'm not going to get into judging her at all. 

The coroner's report, as quoted in the media, is clear that she had been trying very hard to control her heroin problem for over two years.

_"By November last year she had ceased to take heroin as a result of the considerable treatment and counselling that she had received."
"This was a significant achievement for her but, for reasons we will never know, prior to her death she returned to taking heroin, with the fatal consequences that we have heard here today."
"I therefore find that the death of Peaches Geldof was drug-related and I express my sympathy to her family."

It's pretty clear she tried to clean up her act but she lost her battle against addiction........and her life. Her kids have lost a mother who no doubt loved them and cared for and about them. Her husband has lost a wife whom he loved. _


----------



## kenny g (Jul 25, 2014)

I wonder if she would have died if she had been able to inject at a local facility with in-house creche? Another victim of our absurd drug laws? Obviously Heroin is a dangerous drug. The question is whether making it illegal has made it any safer.


----------



## Blagsta (Jul 25, 2014)

Yes and that's all tragic. Doesn't change what happened.


----------



## Cheesypoof (Jul 25, 2014)

Very sad all round


ViolentPanda said:


> His Mick Jagger stylings were certainly a crime against copyright.



I'd say Jim Morrison would be more accurate. Hutchence was a bit of a sex god  himself though, brilliant vocalist too. Cant be denied.


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## spanglechick (Jul 25, 2014)

kenny g said:


> I wonder if she would have died if she had been able to inject at a local facility with in-house creche? Another victim of our absurd drug laws? Obviously Heroin is a dangerous drug. The question is whether making it illegal has made it any safer.


that's a very good question - and worthy of discussion.  It wasn't what we were talking about earlier, though.


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## kenny g (Jul 25, 2014)

spanglechick said:


> that's a very good question - and worthy of discussion.  It wasn't what we were talking about earlier, though.



Well. let's move the discussion on then rather than wondering on up its own bottom.


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## Thora (Jul 25, 2014)

kenny g said:


> I wonder if she would have died if she had been able to inject at a local facility with in-house creche? Another victim of our absurd drug laws? Obviously Heroin is a dangerous drug. The question is whether making it illegal has made it any safer.


I don't think her problem was a lack of childcare/resources though, was it?  She wasn't an isolated single mum, she had a partner and extended family and plenty of cash for babysitters.


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## Cheesypoof (Jul 25, 2014)

I reckon they should legalise it. Seems so many users die from taking a too-strong dose. I dont refer just to injecting either, some people die from snorting it. The strength of street heroin is so random, and if someone has been off it a while they will just buy some and it'll be too strong... it clearly needs to be regulated to prevent immediate death....im all for legalisation.


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## kenny g (Jul 25, 2014)

Thora said:


> I don't think her problem was a lack of childcare/resources though, was it?  She wasn't an isolated single mum, she had a partner and extended family and plenty of cash for babysitters.



True - but she had a habit she felt she had to hide. It was a preventable death.


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## Thora (Jul 25, 2014)

kenny g said:


> True - but she had a habit she felt she had to hide. It was a preventable death.


Do you think if it was legal she wouldn't have hidden that she started using again?  Or that a legal heroin addiction wouldn't be a problem?


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## kenny g (Jul 25, 2014)

Thora said:


> Do you think if it was legal she wouldn't have hidden that she started using again?  Or that a legal heroin addiction wouldn't be a problem?



Undecided. BUT if she had had somewhere legal to inject with a creche her child might not have been left alone with a dead mother for 17 hours, and she might not have died as she may have been resuscitated.


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## Thora (Jul 25, 2014)

kenny g said:


> Undecided. BUT if she had had somewhere legal to inject with a creche her child might not have been left alone with a dead mother for 17 hours, and she might not have died as she may have been resuscitated.


To be honest I think she would have still wanted to hide it from her husband/family/public who thought she was an earth mother.  ODing somewhere legal with your baby in a creche still isn't going to be great for your image.


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## Cheesypoof (Jul 25, 2014)

Thora said:


> Do you think if it was legal she wouldn't have hidden that she started using again?  Or that a legal heroin addiction wouldn't be a problem?



if it was legal, maybe she wouldnt have died....its too sad that users die needlessly, because street heroin is too pure.


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## Looby (Jul 25, 2014)

kenny g said:


> Undecided. BUT if she had had somewhere legal to inject with a creche her child might not have been left alone with a dead mother for 17 hours, and she might not have died as she may have been resuscitated.



I don't agree. As Thora said, she had family, a partner, money to pay for childcare. She didn't need a crèche. 

Also, is a well known celebrity going to risk being spotted going into/at a clinic or other place for legal injecting? 

It's horribly sad but she had other options that injecting alone in a house with her toddler. She couldn't have got that child to a safe place before using.


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## kenny g (Jul 25, 2014)

sparklefish said:


> I don't agree. As Thora said, she had family, a partner, money to pay for childcare. She didn't need a crèche.
> 
> Also, is a well known celebrity going to risk being spotted going into/at a clinic or other place for legal injecting?
> 
> It's horribly sad but she had other options that injecting alone in a house with her toddler. She couldn't have got that child to a safe place before using.



She was using a needle xchange in westminster. There are quite a few weblinks to her injecting antics. http://gawker.com/5502453/peaches-g...at-hollywoods-scientology-centerwith-pictures 
At the end of the day if she had had a non-judgemental place she could mainline she might still be alive. As it is, she is dead.


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## Looby (Jul 25, 2014)

kenny g said:


> She was using a needle xchange in westminster. There are quite a few weblinks to her injecting antics.



Ah ok, scrap that bit then. The rest still stands, there was absolutely no need for her to be using alone with her kids in the house.


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## kenny g (Jul 25, 2014)

sparklefish said:


> Ah ok, scrap that bit then. The rest still stands, there was absolutely no need for her to be using alone with her kids in the house.



Maybe she wanted company? If she had had a place to nod out with other partakers in a safer environment she might still be alive.


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## trashpony (Jul 25, 2014)

Her using that exchange was years before she died and before she had kids. I'm not 100% sure what social services stance is on parenting and heroin use but I can't see that funding a creche for users to get off their tits while council tax payers look after their kids is going to be a vote winner.


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## Poi E (Jul 25, 2014)

Fuck me. Imagine having your own death pulled apart like this. Guess her kids will have lots to google.


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## Cheesypoof (Jul 25, 2014)

trashpony said:


> Her using that exchange was years before she died and before she had kids. I'm not 100% sure what social services stance is on parenting and heroin use but I can't see that funding a creche for users to get off their tits while council tax payers look after their kids is going to be a vote winner.



users dont always use to get off their box...they use because they have a physical dependency. Have some compassion, please.


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## Blagsta (Jul 26, 2014)

Cheesypoof said:


> users dont always use to get off their box...they use because they have a physical dependency. Have some compassion, please.



Which is what methadone is for.


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## Cheesypoof (Jul 26, 2014)

Blagsta said:


> Which is what methadone is for.



I dont think people that havent personally known or loved heroin addicts will ever understand that they are full human beings like the rest of us. So much judging involved, makes me feel sick.


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## 8115 (Jul 26, 2014)

She was a heroin user/ addict.  There are good reasons why people tell other people not to use heroin.  That's as far as it goes for me.  No judgement or rights or wrongs.  Some people are luckier, some people aren't.  Few escape unscathed once they're in deep.  That's all.


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## keybored (Jul 26, 2014)

ATOMIC SUPLEX said:


> Sodding hell, that Hopkins is ridiculous, why are they getting her on all the time?
> I wish everyone would call Hopkins out for what she is (like Peaches here) every time they wheel her out, then maybe the media would just bloody STOP DOING IT!


I've never heard of her before, but what a horrible shit she is.


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## trashpony (Jul 26, 2014)

Cheesypoof said:


> users dont always use to get off their box...they use because they have a physical dependency. Have some compassion, please.


I have compassion. This whole situation is utterly tragic


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## Blagsta (Jul 26, 2014)

Cheesypoof said:


> I dont think people that havent personally known or loved heroin addicts will ever understand that they are full human beings like the rest of us. So much judging involved, makes me feel sick.



I think you're making some massive assumptions about people here.


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## Red Cat (Jul 26, 2014)

Cheesypoof said:


> I dont think people that havent personally known or loved heroin addicts will ever understand that they are full human beings like the rest of us. So much judging involved, makes me feel sick.



Blagsta was making a statement in response to you saying about using heroin because of physical dependency - that's what methadone is used for. There wasn't any moral judgement in that statement. She took heroin for other reasons, reasons we can only guess at. We don't know anything about her state of mind at the time she found herself taking a risk that killed her whilst her baby was in her care, all we know about is the outcome, which, I think most of us here, like trashpony, find utterly tragic.


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## dylanredefined (Jul 26, 2014)

trashpony said:


> Her using that exchange was years before she died and before she had kids. I'm not 100% sure what social services stance is on parenting and heroin use but I can't see that funding a creche for users to get off their tits while council tax payers look after their kids is going to be a vote winner.



  The daily mail headlines print themselves. It might well be a great idea. Never going to happen.


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## Cheesypoof (Jul 26, 2014)

Red Cat said:


> Blagsta was making a statement in response to you saying about using heroin because of physical dependency - that's what methadone is used for. There wasn't any moral judgement in that statement.



i dont mean Blagsta. Trashy's comment about getting users getting 'off their tits' seemed cynical but she has since said she finds the whole situation tragic. Some earlier comments on here have been very black and white...


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## trashpony (Jul 26, 2014)

Cheesypoof said:


> i dont mean Blagsta. Trashy's comment about getting users getting 'off their tits' seemed cynical but she has since said she finds the whole situation tragic. Some earlier comments on here have been very black and white...


I was trying to imagine how a users' crèche would be perceived by the media. Sorry was a bit late and wasn't very clear.


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## Nancy_Winks (Jul 26, 2014)

Thora said:


> I don't think her problem was a lack of childcare/resources though, was it?  She wasn't an isolated single mum, she had a partner and extended family and plenty of cash for babysitters.


With all due respect I don't think you have much of an understanding of how addiction works. Because when you're on gear the decisions you make aren't rational. You don't think, yeah I'll call in my social capital and get my baby-wearing mates to have the kid while I cook up. Or I've got the money so I'll make sure I get a nanny over before I start nodding.

No. Instead your trapped in this fight in your head where you think I really shouldn't be doing this, but just one more hit, but there's my baby, but no one will know, but my husband trusts me, just a small relief, lift the weight lift the weight. And round & round you go. Until you create a small opportunity, and the desperate anticipation and the disgust, and the thrill, and the guilt dissolve in a spoon. 

Addiction is secretive and selfish. The battle between what you know is right and the need to let it all go.

Just saying she could have hired a babysitter misses the point by a fair margin.


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## Nancy_Winks (Jul 26, 2014)

editor said:


> Distressing reading. She had everything but clearly was never happy.


What the... she _had everything_?

She lost her _mother_, to _heroin_, when she was a _child_.

In what possible sense other than the most glib, materialistic sense, is this a young woman who "had everything"?


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## Thora (Jul 26, 2014)

Nancy_Winks said:


> With all due respect I don't think you have much of an understanding of how addiction works. Because when you're on gear the decisions you make aren't rational. You don't think, yeah I'll call in my social capital and get my baby-wearing mates to have the kid while I cook up. Or I've got the money so I'll make sure I get a nanny over before I start nodding.
> 
> No. Instead your trapped in this fight in your head where you think I really shouldn't be doing this, but just one more hit, but there's my baby, but no one will know, but my husband trusts me, just a small relief, lift the weight lift the weight. And round & round you go. Until you create a small opportunity, and the desperate anticipation and the disgust, and the thrill, and the guilt dissolve in a spoon.
> 
> ...


So you think it's more likely that she'd go and find a creche then?


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## Nancy_Winks (Jul 26, 2014)

Thora said:


> So you think it's more likely that she'd go and find a creche then?


No, not if she's using in secret, hiding her addiction, running a double life, eaten up by craving and guilt at the same time. That was kinda the point of my post?!


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## Thora (Jul 26, 2014)

Nancy_Winks said:


> No, not if she's using in secret, hiding her addiction, running a double life, eaten up by craving and guilt at the same time. That was kinda the point of my post?!


The poster who mentioned creches for shooting up was suggesting that the problem was a lack of childcare due to illegality.  My response was that whatever compelled Geldof to do this while in charge of her baby, it wasn't a lack of options for childcare.


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## Nancy_Winks (Jul 26, 2014)

Thora said:


> The poster who mentioned creches for shooting up was suggesting that the problem was a lack of childcare due to illegality.  My response was that whatever compelled Geldof to do this while in charge of her baby, it wasn't a lack of options for childcare.


Misread your post then, cos you're absolutely right.


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## hipipol (Jul 26, 2014)

Nancy_Winks said:


> With all due respect I don't think you have much of an understanding of how addiction works. Because when you're on gear the decisions you make aren't rational. You don't think, yeah I'll call in my social capital and get my baby-wearing mates to have the kid while I cook up. Or I've got the money so I'll make sure I get a nanny over before I start nodding.
> 
> No. Instead your trapped in this fight in your head where you think I really shouldn't be doing this, but just one more hit, but there's my baby, but no one will know, but my husband trusts me, just a small relief, lift the weight lift the weight. And round & round you go. Until you create a small opportunity, and the desperate anticipation and the disgust, and the thrill, and the guilt dissolve in a spoon.
> 
> ...


Very well put
As for the size of the bag of gear _ I suggest she bought large cos she can hardly pop out to buy a 20 quid bag from any street dealer - she was rather well known
Instead she chose someone more discreet who may not have been prepared to break up what sounds from the value given to be around a half ounce
Nearly all the OD dead peeps I ever knew were people having a lapse who had forgotten the tolerance has dropped


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## Looby (Jul 26, 2014)

Nancy_Winks said:


> With all due respect I don't think you have much of an understanding of how addiction works. Because when you're on gear the decisions you make aren't rational. You don't think, yeah I'll call in my social capital and get my baby-wearing mates to have the kid while I cook up. Or I've got the money so I'll make sure I get a nanny over before I start nodding.
> 
> No. Instead your trapped in this fight in your head where you think I really shouldn't be doing this, but just one more hit, but there's my baby, but no one will know, but my husband trusts me, just a small relief, lift the weight lift the weight. And round & round you go. Until you create a small opportunity, and the desperate anticipation and the disgust, and the thrill, and the guilt dissolve in a spoon.
> 
> ...



Yeah, you're right. It's not like booking a babysitter for a night out and I think I probably missed the point in my post earlier. 

It's just so tragic that another kid in that family is going to grow up with the pain of the circumstances of their mum's death as if it wouldn't be dreadful enough. 

I don't know why but I find that bit really hard and really fucking selfish. But like you say, addiction makes you selfish and takes away that reason and rationality.


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## Nancy_Winks (Jul 26, 2014)

sparklefish it is selfish, and really fuckin hard, you're quite right


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## hipipol (Jul 26, 2014)

Once its really got hold of your head its a very had thing to really completely leave behind
Its a major reason I dont have any kids
Even though its years, certainly well over a decade, since I last had any, I cant be absolutely certain that I wont go mad again


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## Cheesypoof (Jul 27, 2014)

rutabowa said:


> It is much easier to hide than smoking weed. You can literally be virtually doing it right in front of someone and they dont notice (unless they're on it themselves)



Having lived with a heroin addict before (me sober, them injecting), their using was obvious....i dont mean actual shooting up but general demeanour, pinned eyes, 'stoned'ness and nodding off. You have a fair point though, my pal was a very serious 'junkie' (excuse the term)....but some of his mates were more casual users and one of them you could barely tell was using....


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## UrbaneFox (Jul 27, 2014)

Nancy_Winks said:


> With all due respect I don't think you have much of an understanding of how addiction works. Because when you're on gear the decisions you make aren't rational. You don't think, yeah I'll call in my social capital and get my baby-wearing mates to have the kid while I cook up. Or I've got the money so I'll make sure I get a nanny over before I start nodding.
> 
> No. Instead your trapped in this fight in your head where you think I really shouldn't be doing this, but just one more hit, but there's my baby, but no one will know, but my husband trusts me, just a small relief, lift the weight lift the weight. And round & round you go. Until you create a small opportunity, and the desperate anticipation and the disgust, and the thrill, and the guilt dissolve in a spoon.
> 
> ...



Hello Nancy, welcome to Urban75. 

Urbane


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## Betsy (Jul 27, 2014)

Cheesypoof said:


> Having lived with a heroin addict before (me sober, them injecting), their using was obvious....i dont mean actual shooting up but general demeanour, pinned eyes, 'stoned'ness and nodding off. You have a fair point though, my pal was a very serious 'junkie' (excuse the term)...*.but some of his mates were more casual users *and one of them you could barely tell was using....


Reading those few words tells me how very little I know of heroin( I assume that is what you're talking about here,Cheesypoof) addiction. I didn't know you could be a 'casual user' I thought, once hooked, it was an all consuming addiction that had to be fed,every day, on a regular basis.


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## hipipol (Jul 27, 2014)

Betsy said:


> Reading those few words tells me how very little I know of heroin( I assume that is what you're talking about here,Cheesypoof) addiction. I didn't know you could be a 'casual user' I thought, once hooked, it was an all consuming addiction that had to be fed,every day, on a regular basis.


Nope
You have to quite determined to get it started
Its deemed so deadly, so Transgressive and wrapped in all the stupid "romance" of the doomed artist that you pursue it, in the demented belief that you too will Coleridge, Miles, Crowley - who ever you saw as the genius whose power was unleashed by smack
This, obviously is the Romantic middle class notion
Suspect its simply a blanket of non emotion for those who see no future
But, I dipped in and out of usage for years
What the Basketball Diaries called a "Pepsi Cola Habit"
Its bizarre but it has been romantisized since it was first synthysized


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## josef1878 (Jul 27, 2014)

Never touched the stuff myself and never would. My cousin did and made a fortune from his dealing but died with his girlfriend in a shitty council flat, rotting to fuck, body smothered by maggots and a flat full of fucking flies. Oh the fucking glamour


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## Betsy (Jul 27, 2014)

josef1878 said:


> Never touched the stuff myself and never would. My cousin did and made a fortune from his dealing but died with his girlfriend in a shitty council flat, rotting to fuck, body smothered by maggots and a flat full of fucking flies. Oh the fucking glamour


Good grief - how awful.


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## Betsy (Jul 27, 2014)

hipipol said:


> Nope
> You have to quite determined to get it started
> Its deemed so deadly, so Transgressive and wrapped in all the stupid "romance" of the doomed artist that you pursue it, in the demented belief that you too will Coleridge, Miles, Crowley - who ever you saw as the genius whose power was unleashed by smack
> This, obviously is the Romantic middle class notion
> ...


Have just looked that up and see that Leonardo DiCaprio played him in the film.


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## josef1878 (Jul 27, 2014)

Betsy said:


> Good grief - how awful.[/QUOTE
> 
> 
> Betsy said:
> ...


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## spanglechick (Jul 29, 2014)

interesting perspective here : http://www.mamamia.com.au/social/pe...m_source=edm&utm_medium=mc&utm_campaign=daily


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## bmd (Jul 30, 2014)

spanglechick said:


> interesting perspective here : http://www.mamamia.com.au/social/pe...m_source=edm&utm_medium=mc&utm_campaign=daily


 
She is quite right but then people with a drug problem can be very manipulative. And exhausting to be around. And make you a partner in their denial, with all the shame and guilt and silence that surrounds that. I imagine that's amplified if you're constantly trying to keep your behaviour a secret from people who are paid to unearth it.

So I can imagine a scenario where there have been many arguments about her parenting versus the drug use and her telling him she's not a bad parent just because she uses and him seeing her being that good parent. Who does he talk to about it without betraying his wife? I wouldn't be surprised if she had manipulated his silence using the media interest as a lever.

It's easy to judge in the cold light of day and I would think he's looking back on it all now wondering wtf he was thinking. Blaming himself for her death and not getting over that any time soon.


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## trashpony (Jul 30, 2014)

bmd said:


> She is quite right but then people with a drug problem can be very manipulative. And exhausting to be around. And make you a partner in their denial, with all the shame and guilt and silence that surrounds that. I imagine that's amplified if you're constantly trying to keep your behaviour a secret from people who are paid to unearth it.
> 
> So I can imagine a scenario where there have been many arguments about her parenting versus the drug use and her telling him she's not a bad parent just because she uses and him seeing her being that good parent. Who does he talk to about it without betraying his wife? I wouldn't be surprised if she had manipulated his silence using the media interest as a lever.
> 
> It's easy to judge in the cold light of day and I would think he's looking back on it all now wondering wtf he was thinking. Blaming himself for her death and not getting over that any time soon.


That article says everything I think about this sorry story. And everything you say is true. But he sacrificed his children in that complicity. He *should* feel guilty. The baby being alone with her was completely avoidable.


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## bmd (Jul 30, 2014)

trashpony said:


> That article says everything I think about this sorry story. And everything you say is true. But he sacrificed his children in that complicity. He *should* feel guilty. The baby being alone with her was completely avoidable.


 
I agree that he should feel guilty. For a while, but can you imagine the death of his wife from a heroin overdose and him knowing about her problem, leading to him feeling a low level of guilt for a while? I can see him torturing himself for years with the deepest regret over this. And I wouldn't wish that on anyone.


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## trashpony (Jul 30, 2014)

bmd said:


> I agree that he should feel guilty. For a while, but can you imagine the death of his wife from a heroin overdose and him knowing about her problem, leading to him feeling a low level of guilt for a while? I can see him torturing himself for years with the deepest regret over this. And I wouldn't wish that on anyone.


Me neither


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## story (Jul 30, 2014)

I have some acquaintanceship with a woman who lives quite similarly to Peaches: mother, loving husband and family, financially comfortable, recognition and respect from those around her, and a habit that dates back to the late eighties. Every so often, everyone thinks she's okay, then something will prove that she's still using, perhaps never stopped. The mystery of how she achieves this is no longer a topic for conversation: that she does manage to deceive those closest to her over and over again is now accepted as a basic given. Once in a while she'll confide in someone, break down in tears and promise to try rehab again. It just keeps going round and round. No one knows what to do for her, or for the bairns. Should she be divorced or otherwise separated from the family? Should the children be taken away from her? Should the husband stop work to take care of her? Should her elderly mother move in with the family? Should the au pairs who come and go be told about the situation? What is the best thing to do? It's easy enough to come up with ideas and suggestions, but how to actually put them in place properly and consistently? It's pretty clear now that she'll either live out her life, or die early, as an addict. Some people accept this, and argue that her addiction should be supported and enabled so that she's safe; others refuse to accept it and want to keep her battling on. She loves her children, they love her, they are thriving (mainly due to family support). What should be done? Nobody knows.


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## Gromit (Jul 30, 2014)

Sometimes the cure is worse than the disease. 

To enable real change some subjects have to first hit real absolute rock bottom and lose what they care about. 

But for others that totally destroys them. 

Change ain't easy.


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## pinkmonkey (Jul 30, 2014)

And the longer they are enabled, i reckon the harder it is for change to happen, not to judge the enablers though, it is such a complex issue.


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## bmd (Jul 30, 2014)

story said:


> I have some acquaintanceship with a woman who lives quite similarly to Peaches: mother, loving husband and family, financially comfortable, recognition and respect from those around her, and a habit that dates back to the late eighties. Every so often, everyone thinks she's okay, then something will prove that she's still using, perhaps never stopped. The mystery of how she achieves this is no longer a topic for conversation: that she does manage to deceive those closest to her over and over again is now accepted as a basic given. Once in a while she'll confide in someone, break down in tears and promise to try rehab again. It just keeps going round and round. No one knows what to do for her, or for the bairns. Should she be divorced or otherwise separated from the family? Should the children be taken away from her? Should the husband stop work to take care of her? Should her elderly mother move in with the family? Should the au pairs who come and go be told about the situation? What is the best thing to do? It's easy enough to come up with ideas and suggestions, but how to actually put them in place properly and consistently? It's pretty clear now that she'll either live out her life, or die early, as an addict. Some people accept this, and argue that her addiction should be supported and enabled so that she's safe; others refuse to accept it and want to keep her battling on. She loves her children, they love her, they are thriving (mainly due to family support). What should be done? Nobody knows.


 
Is this rhetorical or are you asking for input? I don't want to waffle on if you're making an observation.


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## dylanredefined (Jul 30, 2014)

Betsy said:


> Reading those few words tells me how very little I know of heroin( I assume that is what you're talking about here,Cheesypoof) addiction. I didn't know you could be a 'casual user' I thought, once hooked, it was an all consuming addiction that had to be fed,every day, on a regular basis.



   Some can most can't Too many people have claimed to be casual users only to end up ruining there lives. Just say no maybe trite ,but, is very applicable
to heroin.


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## story (Jul 30, 2014)

bmd said:


> Is this rhetorical or are you asking for input? I don't want to waffle on if you're making an observation.




Oh it's rhetorical, I'm sorry to say.

As I said, I only have a slight connection with her. I knew her when we were all teens and knocking about together. My sister is still friends with her sister,  which is how I continue to hear news of her. But it would be redundant and intrusive for me to get any further involved. I suppose that what I know is only the briefest of outlines about all the care and input she gets. I posted it up because I think it serves to illustrate the point that Peaches' addiction, while not stereotypical, is not unique.

(As it happens, the woman I wrote about is also connected to Peaches' circle; so it's possible that she - these two - are part of a much larger group within which this kind of thing is not especially rare....)

People - even those with money and means and emotional support and everything to live for - struggle with heroin in a way that sucks life and vigour out of them and everyone around them. It's a mean jealous possessive demanding drug. People who develop a relationship with heroin find that it haunts them and commands them over and above anything else they think they love.


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## bmd (Jul 30, 2014)

I was going to say heroin made me....but it didn't make me into anything. What I chose to do was constantly step over my moral and ethical boundaries in order to keep taking it. Once I had stepped over the big ones, all the rest were easy to ignore. I became someone who I don't like. It wasn't anything overtly distasteful, more that I had very few morals when it came to lying or deceit and all that is good for is ensuring the drugs supply is less frequently interrupted.

The biggest hurdle I faced in walking away from it was the self deceit aka denial. The inability to take responsibility for my actions. Once I had reconnected with that and made a pact with myself to stop the deceit then it became easier to stay on the path out of it.


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## Cheesypoof (Aug 1, 2014)

Some good points made and my sisters have been emailing about this....one in particular is horrified that the child was left on their own.

Heres my ten cents - I think the husband was very young, and if you are spending all your time with a heroin addict, they can be very convincing, ESPECIALLY about non using. They will lie to you to your face. She must have lied point blank, and after she flushed the final stash down the loo, he believed her. As she would have been a good mum most of the time, he took a leap of faith. He wouldnt have had the maturity to do anything else at 23. I seriously doubt that he told anyone either, not his parents, friends or her dad. When he is ten years older he will see everything very differently.


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## Cheesypoof (Oct 16, 2014)

Bob Geldof said this....he has nothing to blame as far as im concerned. She was her own person.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/p...i-blame-myself-for-peaches-death-9797415.html


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## Iguana (Oct 17, 2014)

Cheesypoof said:


> Heres my ten cents - I think the husband was very young, and if you are spending all your time with a heroin addict, they can be very convincing, ESPECIALLY about non using. They will lie to you to your face. She must have lied point blank, and after she flushed the final stash down the loo, he believed her. As she would have been a good mum most of the time, he took a leap of faith. He wouldnt have had the maturity to do anything else at 23. I seriously doubt that he told anyone either, not his parents, friends or her dad. When he is ten years older he will see everything very differently.


As well as that when you live with an addict your version of normal becomes warped. The addict on a functional high becomes your perception of them sober and it just messes with your head to an enormous degree. There os a process known as gaslighting where the addict manipulates their partner/family member so much that the partner ends up feeling in the wrong for doubting the addict. So even when it's utterly clear to someone on the outside that the addict is using, the partner genuinely doesn't see it and feels like a bad person if they even think it.


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