# Are we really going to sit by while they destroy the NHS?



## Bernie Gunther (Jul 10, 2014)

We're already seeing PR campaigns intended to normalise the idea of no more free health care.

http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/health-28235850


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## SpookyFrank (Jul 10, 2014)

I love how the only option is to end free healthcare, there's no possible way we could make the rich pay their taxes or stop wasting money on nuclear weapons or any of that, we'll just have to lurch back towards the nineteenth century and that's all there is to it.


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## 8115 (Jul 10, 2014)

TUC march later this year. It's on a Saturday, not sure when. I am planning on making it


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## 8115 (Jul 10, 2014)

Obviously it's probably not uniquely a pro NHS march but I think a lot of people who are there will be pro a free health service for all.


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## DrRingDing (Jul 10, 2014)

8115 said:


> TUC march later this year. It's on a Saturday, not sure when. I am planning on making it



Oh well thank fuck for that.


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## DairyQueen (Jul 10, 2014)

It is a disaster what is happening.



> Are we really going to sit by while they destroy the NHS?



Sad answer:  yes.  In Scotland, we get the whole "England haven't privatised the NHS" bullshit from Labour.  I can't imagine what it might be like in England.  The debates on TV have been dreadful.


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## 8115 (Jul 10, 2014)

DrRingDing said:


> Oh well thank fuck for that.


Yeah, I'll chuck a brick at you if I see you an' all.


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## DrRingDing (Jul 10, 2014)

8115 said:


> Yeah, I'll chuck a brick at you if I see you an' all.



Solidarity sister


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## weepiper (Jul 10, 2014)

DairyQueen said:


> It is a disaster what is happening.
> 
> 
> 
> Sad answer:  yes.  In Scotland, we get the whole "England haven't privatised the NHS" bullshit from Labour.  I can't imagine what it might be like in England.  The debates on TV have been dreadful.


Dr Philippa Whitford puts paid to that idea


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## Dr Jon (Jul 10, 2014)

They're hoping that years of cuts / underfunding will increase the perception of a "broken" NHS.

The new "community" trusts are the first step toward splitting the NHS into local "mopping up" services for the proles, leaving the mainstream hospitals ready to be sold off to the private sector.  Like the mental health sector before it, these parasites are drooling over all that lovely LAND, just waiting for lucrative development projects.  Then there's all the cash govt will rake in from selling the hospitals to the private sector - or maybe the private sector, cheeky robbing twats that they are, will demand to be paid for "rescuing" these "failed" hospitals?

The NHS is just about the only thing the cunts have left to sell off.
What a fucking country...


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## MrSki (Jul 10, 2014)

They should make it illegal for MPs or their families to own shares in companies that are tendering for parts of the NHS.


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## Libertad (Jul 10, 2014)

*Compilation of Parliamentary Financial Links to Private Healthcare*

This represents the latest list of recent or present financial links between parliamentarians and individuals or companies involved in private healthcare.

http://socialinvestigations.blogspot.co.uk/2014/03/compilation-of-parliamentary-financial.html


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## DairyQueen (Jul 10, 2014)

weepiper said:


> Dr Philippa Whitford puts paid to that idea




Virgin Health - terrifying.


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## Bernie Gunther (Jul 10, 2014)

There needs to be a credible deterrent for MPs who might be tempted to sell out the NHS for personal gain.

Otherwise, MP's being for the most part sociopaths who think that raping little kids is  a harmless pecadillo (apparently) and that selling off the NHS is perfectly OK because it wont hurt them or anyone that they care about, and some corrupt shit from some dodgy Trust has promised them a lot of money, then they will do it.

If we want them to stop, and if we can't start stringing them up for it, we need to be applying some equally persuasive deterrent.

Edited to remove offensive pic


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## MrSki (Jul 10, 2014)

Libertad said:


> *Compilation of Parliamentary Financial Links to Private Healthcare*
> 
> This represents the latest list of recent or present financial links between parliamentarians and individuals or companies involved in private healthcare.
> 
> http://socialinvestigations.blogspot.co.uk/2014/03/compilation-of-parliamentary-financial.html


That is some list!


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## 8115 (Jul 10, 2014)

Bernie Gunther said:


> There needs to be a credible deterrent for MPs who might be tempted to sell out the NHS for personal gain. otherwise, MP's being for the most part sociopaths, they will.


That the 1% hanging up there? Just need to know how much cash I can have before I'm in danger.


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## DairyQueen (Jul 10, 2014)

Dr Jon said:


> They're hoping that years of cuts / underfunding will increase the perception of a "broken" NHS.
> 
> The new "community" trusts are the first step toward splitting the NHS into local "mopping up" services for the proles, leaving the mainstream hospitals ready to be sold off to the private sector.  Like the mental health sector before it, these parasites are drooling over all that lovely LAND, just waiting for lucrative development projects.  Then there's all the cash govt will rake in from selling the hospitals to the private sector - *or maybe the private sector, cheeky robbing twats that they are, will demand to be paid for "rescuing" these "failed" hospitals?*



They won't even sell them for what they are worth.


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## Bernie Gunther (Jul 10, 2014)

8115 said:


> That the 1% hanging up there? Just need to know how much cash I can have before I'm in danger.



Well, I'm (not entirely seriously) envisaging some sort of due process here, albeit one composed of ordinary citizens rather than the ruling class (seeing as they apparently think raping little kids is OK and can't be trusted to act in the public interest)

Let's imagine for a moment we are sitting in judgement on, for the sake of argument, Jeremy Hunt.

Please feel free to argue that he shouldn't be executed by the people's tribunal for trying to betray, with insulting obviousness, his responsibilities as a minister to the general public in return for favours from e.g. Murdoch, Branston and various toxic US healthcare trusts.

I personally will be arguing the other way. I'd like to see him swinging for his crimes.


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## 8115 (Jul 10, 2014)

Bernie Gunther said:


> Well, I'm envisaging some sort of due process here, albeit one composed of ordinary citizens rather than the ruling class.


Lol.  You'll just end up with a ruling class made up of ordinary citizens. Meritocracy?


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## Dr Jon (Jul 10, 2014)

DairyQueen said:


> They won't even sell them for what they are worth.


That'd keep their track record intact, eh?


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## Dr Jon (Jul 10, 2014)

Bernie Gunther said:


> If we want them to stop, we have to start stringing them up for it or applying some equally persuasive deterrent.


Swingers' Club™ ready for launch.


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## Bernie Gunther (Jul 10, 2014)

Well, what are we going to do? 

Are we really going to let a bunch of obviously corrupt crooks like Jeremy Hunt destroy the NHS without a serious effort to convince them that the public is willing to take extraordinary steps to oppose their corruption?


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## Dr Jon (Jul 10, 2014)

I would favour a few mob lynchings to set an example.  
Then again, I was chatting to an old workmate today, who said that young people today (eg his kids & their mates) are stupid and don't give a shit about anything that doesn't directly concern THEM.  The Thatcher youth have grown up and continue to live exist by that poisonous "I'm all right - fuck you" ideology.

Stringing a few bankers and Tory twats up would be a laugh / make good TV though.


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## Bernie Gunther (Jul 10, 2014)

I'm not necessarily insisting on lynchings, and that probably isn't a very practical suggestion, in the real world, more an expression of the depth of public anger, but there has to be a credible deterrent of some kind or they are going to sell out the NHS.


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## Dr Jon (Jul 10, 2014)

Burning, chopping, evisceration... 
Plenty of options.


Live TV executions would offer viewer participation (press 1 for burning, 2 for chopping...) and involvement from live audience (stoning, turd-pelting, etc)

I'd even buy a TV to watch that.


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## Bernie Gunther (Jul 10, 2014)

I mean, Jeremy Hunt is a clear-cut case. A Tory traitor to the country I grew up in.

Desperately eager to suck Rupert's rancid old cock over BSkyB, rather than serving the public interest. Blatantly undermining his own department's attempts to regulate the takeover until the hacking scandal made Rupert's cockrot gleet taste bad even to unredeemable scum like Cameron, at least short term. What did the PM do in response?

Put Hunt in charge of screwing up the Health service to facilitate privatisation. I mean for fuck's sake ...

These people have no shame, no morality, don't have any electoral reason to be shy about being openly corrupt because nuLabour are much the same.

Voting doesn't work on this issue. While lynching is obviously illegal and impractical, so is effective protest and industrial action these days.

So what legal and morally acceptable deterrent is available to the general public to discourage these corrupt scum from selling off the NHS?


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## The Pale King (Jul 11, 2014)

Bernie Gunther said:


> Well, I'm envisaging some sort of due process here, albeit one composed of ordinary citizens rather than the ruling class.
> 
> Let's imagine for a moment we are sitting in judgement on, for the sake of argument, Jeremy Hunt.
> 
> ...



Me 'nall Bernie.


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## cantsin (Jul 11, 2014)

Libertad said:


> *Compilation of Parliamentary Financial Links to Private Healthcare*
> 
> This represents the latest list of recent or present financial links between parliamentarians and individuals or companies involved in private healthcare.
> 
> http://socialinvestigations.blogspot.co.uk/2014/03/compilation-of-parliamentary-financial.html



can't stop scrolling that when I start, v hardcore stuff - needs to be a thread on it's own/sticky, so everyone can find it easily


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## Dr Jon (Jul 11, 2014)

Dr Jon said:


> That'd keep their track record intact, eh?


Like this:
Taxpayers fleeced ragged in Royal Mail rip-off

Thieving Tory Twats!
Hide your family silver...


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## likesfish (Jul 11, 2014)

The idea we need to replace the nhs with some private scheme is bollocks.
 Its way cheaper and more effective than the US system on virtually every metric.
 Might be persuaded that a european model might be better but we never steal ideas from europe because they is foreign

 Trident two "who knows who we might need to nuke"= two years of the nhs budget so really isnt the answer if there is a budget shortfall but at least could keep it going for a while.
  While a long term plan is worked out.
	 The majority of problems the country face are long term not open to idological solutions the free market works when the customer chooses and can afford that choice.
  If its a natural monopoly or something you cant choose or cant afford the free market doesnt work and anyway any market has to be regulated because otherwise some arsehole will game it.


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## Awesome Wells (Jul 11, 2014)

I tried complaining to my MP about these changes. Being a tory he spins it all as a good thing. It's great to have more choice. This is bullshit: if i'm ill i want the best care available. I don't want a choice. All that means is the GP is compelled, by his manager/head of CCG, to buy from the cheapest service going - or from who the CCG is connected to financially.


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## SpookyFrank (Jul 11, 2014)

DairyQueen said:


> They won't even sell them for what they are worth.



The idea that a public hopsital can have a price put on it at all is pretty blood curdling.

What will they do about selling off hospitals which still have 30 years left on their PFI 'maintenance' contracts?


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## SpookyFrank (Jul 11, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> I tried complaining to my MP about these changes. Being a tory he spins it all as a good thing. It's great to have more choice. This is bullshit: if i'm ill i want the best care available. I don't want a choice. All that means is the GP is compelled, by his manager/head of CCG, to buy from the cheapest service going - or from who the CCG is connected to financially.



They're taking choice away in any case. Last time I went into hospital I was allowed to choose between two private facillities, I would have chosen an NHS hospital but that wasn't an option.

Not to mention the fact that if the NHS was no longer free I would have had two choices: suffer chronic pain indefinitely or operate on myself


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## treelover (Jul 11, 2014)

BBC always seem to be kite flying the notion of an 'end to free care' in many of their news bulletins

btw, I wonder if people have heard of 'personal healthcare budgets' these have the potential to really undermine the NHS, privatisation, etc, hidden cuts, etc

will post more when up to it.


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## treelover (Jul 11, 2014)

8115 said:


> TUC march later this year. It's on a Saturday, not sure when. I am planning on making it




TUC have narrowed it down to being about 'pay rises' excluding a lot of people including claimants.


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## Greebo (Jul 11, 2014)

treelover said:


> BBC always seem to be kite flying the notion of an 'end to free care' in many of their news bulletins
> 
> btw, I wonder if people have heard of 'personal healthcare budgets' these have the potential to really undermine the NHS, privatisation, etc, hidden cuts, etc  <snip>


I've heard about them, and they sound like pretty poor value for money to me.  You do away with all the advantages of group deals (eg for access to a hydrotherapy pool) and shared resources.

It's also going to result in the person who needs a "personal healthcare budget" being lumbered with extra paperwork and red tape.  Ask any disabled person (or people with whom they live) whether the one thing they want is more of that.


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## 8115 (Jul 11, 2014)

I was thinking I would kind of like a personal healthcare budget. I thought I could order my blood tests and 2 checkups and maybe have a bit left over for some counselling. But not sure I am sick enough to get one. And not sure how the details would work.


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## el-ahrairah (Jul 11, 2014)

Bernie Gunther said:


> We're already seeing PR campaigns intended to normalise the idea of no more free health care.
> 
> http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/health-28235850



what are we going to do then?


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## J Ed (Jul 11, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> what are we going to do then?



What do you want to do?


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## two sheds (Jul 11, 2014)

get involved in the nhs action party?


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## Bernie Gunther (Jul 12, 2014)

http://nhap.org/

Thanks for that ...


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## Greebo (Jul 12, 2014)

8115 said:


> I was thinking I would kind of like a personal healthcare budget. I thought I could order my blood tests and 2 checkups and maybe have a bit left over for some counselling. <snip>


Can't you already have the blood tests, checkups, and counselling on the NHS without having to do the paperwork yourself?

FWIW VP's supposed to have a liver function blood test at least twice a year and ideally 4 times a year while prescribed statins, and (so far) he's only been sent for that anuually.


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## two sheds (Jul 12, 2014)

I pointed to this before but there's a superb talk by Allyson Pollock ""

*How our NHS has been abolished*

http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2014/06/25/how-our-nhs-has-been-abolished/


I'm half way through doing a transcript for it but it really is worth listening to. Some of the slides are enlightening.

I tried to post them here but failed miserably, but two contrast the simplicity of the pre 1999 structure against the phenomenal complexity of the new structure, a graph of NHS expenditure as a percentage of GDP showing a large increase since the start of the creeping privatization, and a pie chart of how the US model leads to only 64% of spending going to actual medical care (11% insurer marketing and profit, 8% to insurer billing, 4% to hospital billing, 5% to physician billing, 8% to medical care administration).

Eta: ah they do seem to have uploaded after all.


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## treelover (Jul 12, 2014)

tx for that


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## 8115 (Jul 12, 2014)

Greebo said:


> Can't you already have the blood tests, checkups, and counselling on the NHS without having to do the paperwork yourself?
> 
> FWIW VP's supposed to have a liver function blood test at least twice a year and ideally 4 times a year while prescribed statins, and (so far) he's only been sent for that anuually.


Personally I would rather do it myself. Cash is king  But doesn't really bother me too much.


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## Greebo (Jul 12, 2014)

8115 said:


> Personally I would rather do it myself. Cash is king  But doesn't really bother me too much.


Well, good for you - you're very welcome to do my paperwork if it's so easy.  

Here are the forms. *thwap*  Here are the copies of previous forms as a starting point. *thwap thwap*  Here are the advice booklets.  *thwap thwap thwap*  Here's the case law.  *Thud*

Okay, highlighter pens, post its, medical notes, biros, and computer.  Scanner there, printer here, coffee and tea in the kitchen - you weren't planning on doing anything with your life for the next 2 months, were you?  Jolly good, I'll leave you to it then.


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## 8115 (Jul 12, 2014)

Greebo said:


> Well, good for you - you're very welcome to do my paperwork if it's so easy.
> 
> Here are the forms. *thwap*  Here are the copies of previous forms as a starting point. *thwap thwap*  Here are the advice booklets.  *thwap thwap thwap*  Here's the case law.  *Thud*
> 
> Okay, highlighter pens, post its, medical notes, biros, and computer.  Scanner there, printer here, coffee and tea in the kitchen - you weren't planning on doing anything with your life for the next 2 months, were you?  Jolly good, I'll leave you to it then.


If you need case law for your medical needs you may wish to consider asking for some help.


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## Greebo (Jul 12, 2014)

8115 said:


> If you need case law for your medical needs you may wish to consider asking for some help.


Sweetie, I'm on the edge of a migraine and doing my level best to not rip you to shreds.  However... fuck off fuck off fuck off and don't come back until you've got a fucking scooby about the red tape involved!


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## 8115 (Jul 12, 2014)

Greebo said:


> Sweetie, I'm on the edge of a migraine and doing my level best to not rip you to shreds.  However... fuck off fuck off fuck off and don't come back until you've got a fucking scooby about the red tape involved!


I'd take red tape over (hopefully) imaginary brain eating amoeabas or a possibly murderous stalker outside the window, to quote a couple of the recent treats life has thrown at me.

Hope your migraine doesn't materialise.


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## ViolentPanda (Jul 12, 2014)

8115 said:


> I was thinking I would kind of like a personal healthcare budget. I thought I could order my blood tests and 2 checkups and maybe have a bit left over for some counselling. But not sure I am sick enough to get one. And not sure how the details would work.



And if you get the 'flu or any other of the many transient but tricky health problems we're all heir to, or develop a(nother?) long-term health problem?
You see, that's where personal budgets are insidious.  They're effectively a rationing tool with the onus put on the patient to prioritise spending, so while you could do the above, and spend your annual allowance/budget, you're confining yourself to those actions being the only health service interaction you can have, outside of emergency medicine.
Many of us who are "long-term sick and/or disabled" (as the DSS used to term us) don't have "headline" illnesses, we're victims of multiple issues that, taken together, have serious ongoing effects on our lives.  The complexity of our issues means that the sort of "personal health budget" proposed will force us to pick and choose which of our problems get priority.  For example, I have heart disease, type II diabetes, arthritis and several other problems including M.E.  Do I target the diabetes, the heart disease or the arthritis with my health budget, which will exacerbate the effects of my M.E., or should I just give up the ghost, as the eejits proferring this idea would probably prefer?

Add to that the likely weight of bureaucracy that people taking up the budget would have to engage with, and some people will be on a hiding to nothing.


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## ViolentPanda (Jul 12, 2014)

8115 said:


> If you need case law for your medical needs you may wish to consider asking for some help.



Help from...?
Some news for you. Health and welfare advice provision has been cut by about 60% (in some areas by more, depending on extant funding arrangements), so actually accessing that advice, rather than taking Greebo's DIY approach is (to say the least!) problematic.
We're old hands at this, too, and know how to operate in the bureaucratic mire. Many people won't be able to take a DIY approach in the absence of decent public advice services, though, and *many* people with acute and/or chronic health conditions will get fucked over.


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## purenarcotic (Jul 12, 2014)

This is just terrifying.  You look at the specialist places like GOSH where they try again and again to help the very sickest children, where hugely expensive and experimental treatments are regularly carried out to improve quality and quantity of life and you think of how many children will just die without access to that (obviously lots of children around the world already do, I mean UK specific).  Children who have just as much a right as any other child to be able to grow up and take part in life.

It makes me so angry and feel so incredibly helpless.


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## purenarcotic (Jul 12, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Help from...?
> Some news for you. Health and welfare advice provision has been cut by about 60% (in some areas by more, depending on extant funding arrangements), so actually accessing that advice, rather than taking Greebo's DIY approach is (to say the least!) problematic.
> We're old hands at this, too, and know how to operate in the bureaucratic mire. Many people won't be able to take a DIY approach in the absence of decent public advice services, though, and *many* people with acute and/or chronic health conditions will get fucked over.



And for those who can't manage the minefield themselves the services they might have had access to before that could have helped them are being slashed.


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## Libertad (Jul 12, 2014)

A whole series of posts liked but certainly not liking.


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## Sprocket. (Jul 13, 2014)

MrSki said:


> They should make it illegal for MPs or their families to own.



FTFY


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## StoneRoad (Jul 13, 2014)

Greebo said:


> Well, good for you - you're very welcome to do my paperwork if it's so easy.
> 
> Here are the forms. *thwap*  Here are the copies of previous forms as a starting point. *thwap thwap*  Here are the advice booklets.  *thwap thwap thwap*  Here's the case law.  *Thud*
> 
> Okay, highlighter pens, post its, medical notes, biros, and computer.  Scanner there, printer here, coffee and tea in the kitchen - you weren't planning on doing anything with your life for the next 2 months, were you?  Jolly good, I'll leave you to it then.



Bliddy hell, that's a lot of paper you have experience with. I know why you do it, but to my mind, there is something seriously awry with a system that needs that level of input from the user-side. Personal budgets sound as if they are really intended to dissuade use of the system for anyone - or their "agent" - with complex needs.
I have only a *minor* amount related to the care at home my 95 year old father receives, he is in good health otherwise.


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## Greebo (Jul 13, 2014)

8115 said:


> <snip>Hope your migraine doesn't materialise.


My reply to you yesterday was typed during the advanced aura phase.  I don't plead migraines as an excuse for being antisocial unless I'm definitely getting one. 

By that time, a migraine can't easily be blocked or reversed.  It began in an atypical order (and without my usual triggers) or I'd have taken something sooner.  Came offline asap, took my tablets (usually take the edge off within 45mins if they're going to work at all), and spent until 7.30pm with it full blown (pain, dyslexia, disturbed vision, photophobia, no balance, censor off, drowsing in and out, itching, digestive shutdown etc). 

That was a short and mild one, you should try it some time.   Really.


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## Awesome Wells (Jul 13, 2014)

Where do only fools and horses park!

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/nurses-charged-200-month-just-3848184#.U8JH6dUu8Os.twitter


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## Dogsauce (Jul 14, 2014)

Well, we're going to charge nasty health tourist immigrants:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-28291276

Of course, this requires setting up a financial system to allow for such payments.  Can't think what else they could do with that, can you?  I mean, we know they'll definitely only charge immigrants and not progressively extend that to other 'undeserving' groups, right up to including those horrible people born on a day of the week with a 'Y' in it, right?


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## ViolentPanda (Jul 14, 2014)

Dogsauce said:


> Well, we're going to charge nasty health tourist immigrants:
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-28291276
> 
> Of course, this requires setting up a financial system to allow for such payments.  Can't think what else they could do with that, can you?  I mean, we know they'll definitely only charge immigrants and not progressively extend that to other 'undeserving' groups, right up to including those horrible people born on a day of the week with a 'Y' in it, right?



IIRC the charging system has been in place since at least 2008.  This is about hammering the clinical and admin staff in hospitals to actually *apply* the charges, as currently a lot of the workers just do their jobs and fuck the charging work off as pure malicious cuntishness.


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## scalyboy (Jul 14, 2014)

MrSki said:


> They should make it illegal for MPs or their families to own shares in companies that are tendering for parts of the NHS.


 'They' are the MPs!


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## MrSki (Jul 14, 2014)

scalyboy said:


> 'They' are the MPs!


Yes & they should make it part of their procedures that they are not allowed to buy or sell shares whilst in office. I know these is fuck all chance of this happening but it should be the case to avoid any conflict of interest.


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## nino_savatte (Jul 14, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> I tried complaining to my MP about these changes. Being a tory he spins it all as a good thing. It's great to have more choice. This is bullshit: if i'm ill i want the best care available. I don't want a choice. All that means is the GP is compelled, by his manager/head of CCG, to buy from the cheapest service going - or from who the CCG is connected to financially.


Choice is one of neoliberalism's greatest illusions. It is claimed by NL's supporters that it leads to 'freedom'. It does nothing of the kind. It creates nothing but confusion and acts as a cover for rationalisations and privatisations.


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## Pickman's model (Jul 14, 2014)

is the gist of the thread thus far 'yes'?


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## ViolentPanda (Jul 14, 2014)

MrSki said:


> Yes & they should make it part of their procedures that they are not allowed to buy or sell shares whilst in office. I know these is fuck all chance of this happening but it should be the case to avoid any conflict of interest.



They've already constructed a perfect loophole by which to circumvent such tiresome rules.  Blind trusts mean that (theoretically) the trustees of the trust invest your money, not you.
Of course, if you were to casually let slip to a trustee (usually an associate or relative, by the way) that Acme Logistics looked like a handy buy...


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## ViolentPanda (Jul 14, 2014)

nino_savatte said:


> Choice is one of neoliberalism's greatest illusions. It is claimed by NL's supporters that it leads to 'freedom'. It does nothing of the kind. It creates nothing but confusion and acts as a cover for rationalisations and privatisations.



The other illusion, related to choice, being "equality".
This isn't, however, equality as in parity of access to services, it's equality in being able, *if we wish and can afford to do so*, to buy preferential access to services, because neoliberalism utterly discounts notions such as the effects of social capital on access.
Blair's much-touted "equality of opportunity" was likewise not "equality" as anyone not infected by the neoliberal virus would understand it.


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## nino_savatte (Jul 14, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> The other illusion, related to choice, being "equality".
> This isn't, however, equality as in parity of access to services, it's equality in being able, *if we wish and can afford to do so*, to buy preferential access to services, because neoliberalism utterly discounts notions such as the effects of social capital on access.
> Blair's much-touted "equality of opportunity" was likewise not "equality" as anyone not infected by the neoliberal virus would understand it.


Blair was fond of his cute little soundbites."Equality of opportunity" is just a meaningless phrase, like "aspirational socialism"... whatever the fuck that is.


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## Jeff Robinson (Jul 15, 2014)

The scum coalition government all deserve to be put up against a wall for this alone, as do their collaborators in the media and think tanks who shill for the bloodsucking parasites that now infest our health service.


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## treelover (Jul 15, 2014)

There is a national 'save the nhs' event marching across the UK, but its in late August and will sadly probably be invisible/unreported.


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## Awesome Wells (Jul 16, 2014)

If we end up like this I'll throw myself under a bus:

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2014/0...line-now-the-whole-world-is-talking-about-it/


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## Awesome Wells (Jul 16, 2014)

Jeff Robinson said:


> The scum coalition government all deserve to be put up against a wall for this alone, as do their collaborators in the media and think tanks who shill for the bloodsucking parasites that now infest our health service.


People will just end up blocking their GP surgeries and AnE wards because they won't know what else to do. They certainly won't be whipping out their cheque books writing cheques for thousands to pay for health care. The whole thing will be a disaster. Of course by that point, the Lords and Ladies making money from all this will have already profited.


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## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Jul 16, 2014)

nino_savatte said:


> Choice is one of neoliberalism's greatest illusions. It is claimed by NL's supporters that it leads to 'freedom'. It does nothing of the kind. It creates nothing but confusion and acts as a cover for rationalisations and privatisations.


 
I remember reading an article a while ago about some government figures that apparently supported the idea of choice in hospitals. The metric they'd used to measure it was treatment for heart attacks.


----------



## scalyboy (Jul 16, 2014)

treelover said:


> There is a national 'save the nhs' event marching across the UK, but its in late August and will sadly probably be invisible/unreported.


 I'll go anyway, just so I can say to myself in years to come that I did. I was at a hospital this AM - the signs of decay and privatisation were abundant. It is pitiful what is happening  I'm guessing that their plan has been to run it down so much that anyone with any income will take out private health cover, and leave the NHS as a service of last resort for the poor, just like in the good ol' US of A.


----------



## shagnasty (Jul 16, 2014)

In Barnet today and amount of sophisticated gear they spend shedloads of money no wonder the scum want to get their hands on it


----------



## scalyboy (Jul 16, 2014)

shagnasty said:


> In Barnet today and amount of sophisticated gear they spend shedloads of money no wonder the scum want to get their hands on it


Isn't Barnet one of the new hospitals built under Labour, when Brown was Chancellor? I like Barnet, it has an efficient feel to it, certainly compared to the old building, which was _literally_ a Victorian workhouse


----------



## two sheds (Aug 7, 2014)

A view of what's in store for us: 

http://www.opposingviews.com/i/health/hospital-bills-man-9000-bandage-cut-finger



> A New Jersey teacher received some serious sticker shock recently after a trip to the hospital for a relatively minor finger injury, NBC New York Reports.
> 
> Baer Hanusz-Rajkowski split open his finger last August with the claw end of a hammer. Hanusz-Rajkowski waited several days to see if the wound would close on its own, but it never did. He decided to visit the hospital to see if stitches were needed.
> 
> During his emergency room visit at Bayonne Medical Center, doctors told him stitches wouldn’t be necessary. Hanusz-Rajkowski was given a tetanus shot and his wound was cleaned and bandaged. He went home and expected to receive a relatively small bill in the mail for his visit.


----------



## treelover (Aug 7, 2014)

'Flash choir' Bristol in support of the NHS.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 7, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> If we end up like this I'll throw myself under a bus:
> 
> http://www.addictinginfo.org/2014/0...line-now-the-whole-world-is-talking-about-it/


you can't do that, not least because you've promised to throw yourself off a cliff if the tories win http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/why-labour-are-scum.305954/page-31#post-13261905


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## Pickman's model (Aug 7, 2014)

scalyboy said:


> Isn't Barnet one of the new hospitals built under Labour, when Brown was Chancellor? I like Barnet, it has an efficient feel to it, certainly compared to the old building, which was _literally_ a Victorian workhouse


hackney hospital formerly a workhouse
st leonards hospital, kingsland road, formerly a workhouse
and there are, as you say, others.


----------



## treelover (Aug 15, 2014)

> NHS protest camp and a new Jarrow march - whatever it takes to save our hospitals
> 
> Jos Bell 12 August 2014
> Late summer brings a surge of protest against plans to close down swathes of hospital provision, even as its revealed a growing lack of beds means patients are waiting hours in ambulances.
> ...



Call out


----------



## treelover (Aug 15, 2014)

> Is there yet still time to save our NHS? This is certainly no time for prevarication. On 16th August campaigners will set out from Darlington in a fight to preserve the very best our public sector has to offer.
> The 999 March for the NHS  will set out to replicate the Jarrow Marchers route - landing in Parliament Square on the afternoon of 6th September. It's the brainchild of a group of 'Darlo Mums' who invite us all to join in for a mile, 10 miles or even for the full 300, with all ages welome.





> *700 mothers to recreate Jarrow march in protest at NHS 'privatisation'*
> Seventy-eight years after the original Jarrow crusaders marched to parliament to protest against mass unemployment, a group of women, led by a call centre worker from County Durham, will retrace their steps to fight for universal, free health care. *Andrew Musgrove *reports
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...-jarrow-march-to-protest-at-nhs-privatisation




Starting from Jarrow tomorrow, please publicise, August is not a good month for publicity, etc, but I imagine its the best time for Darlo Mums.

hope ch4 cover it at least


----------



## fucthest8 (Aug 15, 2014)

Done, shared it everywhere I can


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## Doctor Carrot (Dec 10, 2014)

FFS, 6.1% of the budget spent on selling it off to private vultures.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-30397329


----------



## Sprocket. (Dec 10, 2014)

Disgraceful.


----------



## Greebo (Dec 10, 2014)

Doctor Carrot said:


> FFS, 6.1% of the budget spent on selling it off to private vultures. <snip>


WTAF?


----------



## Serotonin (Dec 10, 2014)

Doctor Carrot said:


> FFS, 6.1% of the budget spent on selling it off to private vultures.
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-30397329



Thats only the start. The Health and Social care act will ensure that within another 5 to 10 years it will be at least 30%


----------



## StoneRoad (Dec 10, 2014)

Privatisation by the back door .................

or go private to jump queues that only exist because ..... and far too much is spent on "admin executives" and posh offices.

(At the weekend took OH to out-of-hours GP appointment at local hospital - urgent as severe pain in gut - we had first appointment at 1200, not seen until 25 past! and no one else waiting, team of three staff doing nowt.)


----------



## mwgdrwg (Dec 10, 2014)

StoneRoad said:


> Privatisation by the back door .................
> 
> or go private to jump queues that only exist because ..... and far too much is spent on "admin executives" and posh offices.
> 
> (At the weekend took OH to out-of-hours GP appointment at local hospital - urgent as severe pain in gut - we had first appointment at 1200, not seen until 25 past! and no one else waiting, team of three staff doing nowt.)



As we're throwing out anecdotes about NHS staff...my wife is a nurse and works herself to the bone and is under constant stress and exhaustion because of severe understaffing.


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 20, 2014)

Anyone confirm if this is real?


----------



## nino_savatte (Dec 20, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Anyone confirm if this is real?


ITV claimed to have the story but if you go to their website, it isn't there.


> *Page not found*
> Unfortunately, the page you were looking for does not exist on itv.com/news/
> 
> You can go back to the homepage or you can use the search box below to try again:
> http://www.itv.com/news/west/update/2014-12-20/banner-on-suspension-bridge-do-not-destroy-nhs/


----------



## treelover (Dec 20, 2014)

> *NHS protest camp* and a new Jarrow march - whatever it takes to save our hospitals
> 
> Jos Bell 12 August 2014
> Late summer brings a surge of protest against plans to close down swathes of hospital provision, even as its revealed a growing lack of beds means patients are waiting hours in ambulances.







treelover said:


> Call out



Did this happen?


----------



## treelover (Dec 20, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Anyone confirm if this is real?




Wow, please let it be real and not photo-shopped.


----------



## yield (Dec 20, 2014)

treelover said:


> Wow, please let it be real and not photo-shopped.


Pixels. Unfortunately


treelover said:


> Did this happen?


NHS 'People's March' protests: Thousands join London's new 'Jarrow March' in demonstrations against health cuts
Indy Sunday 07 September 2014


----------



## zippyRN (Dec 20, 2014)

Bernie Gunther said:


> We're already seeing PR campaigns intended to normalise the idea of no more free health care.
> 
> http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/health-28235850



 in the best tradition of any organisation  where ( in the run up to christmas)  things have got to be done the  turkeys  are waving pictures of geese ... 

The  labour party and the Left (in general)'s propaganda machines  continually confuse the services the NHS provide  and the  clause 4 esque structural   mismanagment of the  providers  in a hope that their union paymasters will be sated . 

The simple fact remains if you privatised the NHS providers, let  real managers ( not the  institutuonalised fast track grad scheme types or failed  private sector managers who move to the  culture of mediocrity  created by Blair-Brown)  strip out the layers of unnecessary  middle management introduced under Blair - Brown   and  superfluous legacy  roles  including full time Uni(s)on  Shop Stewards  ...  but retained the commitment  to  free at the point of need   the service would not get worse and every likelihood  would get better 

it;s telling that the only NHS trust Board  where clinicians outnumber  lay managers  is  Hinchingbrooke,  while most other trusts even if you  put the professionally  qualified  support services  Managers working 'in role' into a third group the  numbers of  lay managers  still outweigh them sometimes 5 to one  - espcially in those trusts who have the minimum of  two Health Professional directors  - things you can do in  production or logistics  don;t work when the 'product' is  a human being who is injured or unwell.


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 20, 2014)

Were you banned under the name zippyPN or something similar for being a racist nurse?


----------



## zippyRN (Dec 20, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> I tried complaining to my MP about these changes. Being a tory he spins it all as a good thing. It's great to have more choice. This is bullshit: if i'm ill i want the best care available. I don't want a choice. All that means is the GP is compelled, by his manager/head of CCG, to buy from the cheapest service going - or from who the CCG is connected to financially.



DO you understand what  'Any Qualified Provider' actually means  -  unless the whole thing is some great controlled cabal  ( which some the more swivel eyed tin foil hatters probably do think) - it means you can choose  the best / closest / most convenient ...  just like before  Bliar  got rid of fundholding in favour of 'choose and book'


----------



## zippyRN (Dec 20, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Were you banned under the name zippyPN or something similar for being a racist nurse?



 you what ? 

this is the only account i've had on Urban , and in the 9 years i've been a member of urban i've not been banned


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 20, 2014)

zippyRN said:


> you what ?
> 
> this is the only account i've had on Urban , and in the 9 years i've been a member of urban i've not been banned


Yeah ok, zippy ph banned for being a racist nurse with a mad NHS grudge. No connection you say. Ok. 

How come if you're so on the ball about bliar et al you basically sound like a right wing loon who can barely be bothered to type? Back your stuff up instead of having an episode. Like now.


----------



## zippyRN (Dec 20, 2014)

nino_savatte said:


> Blair was fond of his cute little soundbites."Equality of opportunity" is just a meaningless phrase, like "aspirational socialism"... whatever the fuck that is.



Especially as Equality of opportunity  is  about  pulling the ladder up to the height that the  Tractor Production commissars   have been told to set it at , rather than equity of opportunity  which   means the  ladder  gets lowered as well as pulled up ...  but  as we know from the 13 glorious years of  the Dear Leader and the Great Leader  a focus on 'education,  education, education ' began with the dismantling of two schemes which encouraged innovation and  development as well as providing  wider access  in favour of  their  own brand of statist authoritarian cronyism.


----------



## Greebo (Dec 20, 2014)

zippyRN said:


> Especially as Equality of opportunity  is  aobut  pulling the ladder up to the height that the  Tractor Production commissars   have been told to set it at , rather than equity of opportunity  which   meeans the  ladder  gets lowered as well as pulled up ...  but  as we know fro mthe 13 glorious years of  the Dear Leader and the Great Leader  a focus on 'education ,  education,. education ' began with the dismantling of two schemes which encouraged innovation and  development as well as providing  wider access  in favour of  their  own brand of statist authoritarian cronyism.


"Equality" not "equity".  Never mind about Jesus wept, every deity of coherent thought and literacy is weeping. 

If you wish to communicate, you could as least raise the level of your typos to something approximating the level of somebody, with English as a mother tongue, who left school with a GCSE in English.


----------



## free spirit (Dec 20, 2014)

zippyRN said:


> in the best tradition of any organisation  where ( in the run up to christmas)  things have got to be done the  turkeys  are waving pictures of geese ...
> 
> The  labour party and the Left (in general)'s propaganda machines  continually confuse the services the NHS provide  and the  clause 4 esque structural   mismanagment of the  providers  in a hope that their union paymasters will be sated .
> 
> The simple fact remains if you privatised the NHS providers, let  real managers ( not the  institutuonalised fast track grad scheme types or failed  private sector managers who move to the  culture of mediocrity  created by Blair-Brown)  strip out the layers of unnecessary  middle management introduced under Blair - Brown   and  superfluous legacy  roles  including full time Uni(s)on  Shop Stewards  ...  but retained the commitment  to  free at the point of need   the service would not get worse and every likelihood  would get better


Indeed, a case in point being the postal service, which has been vastly improved since privatisation to the point where we now all realise how silly we were to value a service that meant letters could be collected as late as 7pm and delivered anywhere in the country by 9am at the latest the next morning for 30p.

Privatisation has taught us that what we really needed from a postal service was a service that collected the post the next morning, and delivered it by mid afternoon the next day, turning an overnight postal service into a nearly 2 day postal service.

But at least they're making a profit now eh.

Is that the sort of efficient privatisation model you had in mind?


----------



## zippyRN (Dec 20, 2014)

free spirit said:


> Indeed, a case in point being the postal service, which has been vastly improved since privatisation to the point where we now all realise how silly we were to value a service that meant letters could be collected as late as 7pm and delivered anywhere in the country by 9am at the latest the next morning for 30p.
> 
> Privatisation has taught us that what we really needed from a postal service was a service that collected the post the next morning, and delivered it by mid afternoon the next day, turning an overnight postal service into a nearly 2 day postal service.
> 
> ...



Last post  collection times hasn't changed in any of the places i've lived in in the  few years, as the changes  you are referring to pre-date the privatisation  - As i understand it  there is no reason  for the change in start times for RM staff  - IIRC they didn;t recieve variable  pay  elements for work before 7am  ( unlike  the NHS where  there  are various  incentives, despite it being a 24 hour service to minimise the number of staff working  between 2000 - 0700 due to  it  counting for variable pay)

delivered anywhere in the country by 9am the next day ?  for the past 30  years  my  parents  had  typically recieved their post any time between 9am and 2pm   and it's hardly  as if a large village  less than 5 miles from the County town is the back of beyond  is it


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## Pickman's model (Dec 20, 2014)

depends on the county


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## zippyRN (Dec 20, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> depends on the county


there are no  rivers with long diversions for road traffic , mountains etc in the way


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## Greebo (Dec 20, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> depends on the county


More than that, it depends on the delivery routes out of London; Watford and Norwich are on main rail and road routes, Hertford is not.


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## Pickman's model (Dec 20, 2014)

Greebo said:


> More than that, it depends on the delivery routes out of London; Watford and Norwich are on main rail and road routes, Hertford is not.


if they're five miles from the county town in the back of beyond in scotland should be grateful for any post at all.


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## zippyRN (Dec 20, 2014)

Greebo said:


> More than that, it depends on the delivery routes out of London; Watford and Norwich are on main rail and road routes, Hertford is not.



this County town has it's own post code ...


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## Greebo (Dec 20, 2014)

zippyRN said:


> this County town has it's own post code ...


So does Hertford.  In fact, it has several.  Your move.


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## zippyRN (Dec 20, 2014)

Greebo said:


> So does Hertford.  In fact, it has several.  Your move.


 Isn't hertford a Stevenage SG post code ?


----------



## Greebo (Dec 20, 2014)

zippyRN said:


> Isn't hertford a Stevenage SG post code ?


Does it matter?  You're only talking about postcodes because you haven't got an adequate answer to the other points...


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## Pickman's model (Dec 20, 2014)

zippyRN said:


> Isn't hertford a Stevenage SG post code ?


google is your friend


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## Pickman's model (Dec 20, 2014)

Greebo said:


> Does it matter?  You're only talking about postcodes because you haven't got an adequate answer to the other points...


but this brings us nicely back to the nhs through the medium of the postcode lottery


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## zippyRN (Dec 20, 2014)

Greebo said:


> Does it matter?  You're only talking about postcodes because you haven't got an adequate answer to the other points...


I think i answered your other points  -  the last posting times and delivery times assertions  you made are not supported by practice .


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## Pickman's model (Dec 20, 2014)

zippyRN said:


> I think i answered your other points  -  the last posting times and delivery times assertions  you made are not supported by practice .


for practice read experience


----------



## free spirit (Dec 20, 2014)

zippyRN said:


> Last post  collection times hasn't changed in any of the places i've lived in in the  few years, as the changes  you are referring to pre-date the privatisation  - As i understand it  there is no reason  for the change in start times for RM staff  - IIRC they didn;t recieve variable  pay  elements for work before 7am  ( unlike  the NHS where  there  are various  incentives, despite it being a 24 hour service to minimise the number of staff working  between 2000 - 0700 due to  it  counting for variable pay)
> 
> delivered anywhere in the country by 9am the next day ?  for the past 30  years  my  parents  had  typically recieved their post any time between 9am and 2pm   and it's hardly  as if a large village  less than 5 miles from the County town is the back of beyond  is it


They've recently changed the last post collection times to 9am in virtually all the post boxes near us.

OK maybe not the entire country had pre 9am deliveries, but most of it did. Then in the name of efficiency savings they said they were scrapping the 2nd post, but it turned out that they actually scrapped the first post. OK that was prior to privatisation, but was all done in the name of getting to privatisation, the latest changes to the post collection times have come after privatisation.

report here, 50,000 post boxes moved to earlier collection times.


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## free spirit (Dec 20, 2014)

And the justification


> * Isn't this just a cost-cutting excercise typical of a newly privatised business?*
> Every business needs to examine its costs and Royal Mail is no different. In order to protect the long term future of postbox collections, we need to improve our efficiency and become as cost-effective as possible. Moving these low-usage boxes to a ‘collection on delivery’ footing enables us to realise these savings and maintain service to customers.



Which is complete bullshit as some of the postboxes affected used to be rammed with post by 6pm with people dropping post off at the end of the working day, and they did it to the post box closest to our business centre, which houses maybe 40-50 different companies all posting at the end of the day.


----------



## two sheds (Dec 21, 2014)

Anyone seen “Sell Off”? Worth watching - sorry about the length of extracts.





> This is a film about a group of doctors trying to save the NHS. ... what appears normal on the surface has in fact undergone a tsunami of structural change which now leaves the door of the NHS blown wide open to closure and privatisation... £110 billion ... a year of your money is up for grabs.
> 
> 1.  Internal Market, Margaret Thatcher, Conservative 1991 [2:15].
> 
> ...


----------



## DownwardDog (Dec 21, 2014)

> Profits can rise to as much as an 1100% rate of return. Coventry University Hospital cost £400 million to build and has a repayment plan of £3 billion.



This is balls. They're comparing the capex for building it with the total PFI repayments which includes 30+ years of service charges for crappy meals and washing shit stained sheets, etc.


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## butchersapron (Dec 21, 2014)

You said capex. Bullshitters often use ideological terms as if they are just neutral technical terms. They do this to hide their fanaticism and to make themselves sound like engineers.


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## zippyRN (Dec 21, 2014)

DownwardDog said:


> This is balls. They're comparing the capex for building it with the total PFI repayments which includes 30+ years of service charges for crappy meals and washing shit stained sheets, etc.



This is part of the  ideologically  driven  'mistruths' of the left in such matters

PFI has been painted  as a  huge profit making  exercise for the  builder / hard FM  operator , but it forgets  what the  spend to service a traditional 'mortgage'  on the buildings would be and  the costs  of  the services included  in the PFI - that would otherwise be have to paid for. and the hospitals  pass to the NHS trust  at thecompletion of the term  -  it;s effectively HP + value added services

in my experience of PFI the  hard and soft FM  services improved dramatically as building services couldn;t  be told to not do something to 'save money'   ( i.e. leave it looking a shit tip )  and soft FM  were acutely aware  of their performance standards.

ditto the ' thousand pounds to put up a notice board' stories ... forgetting that  the variation  includes various stuff forthe balance of the PFI  - possibly  less relevant if it;s cupbardo but if it;s  frdigeor a  drug cupboard linked ot monitoring / alarm systems or the big screens that  seem ot have replaced  bed state white boards  -  try getting a notice board and having it put up by  general trades  for much change from 100 gbp


----------



## zippyRN (Dec 21, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> You said capex. Bullshitters often use ideological terms as if they are just neutral technical terms. They do this to hide their fanaticism and to make themselves sound like engineers.



the fact is some on the left have a horrid  habit of  comparing the  CAPital EXpenditure on the buildings (i.e. what it costs to build it)  in PFIs with the total  cost of the contract including  the 'mortgage' , maintainance and other  FM services.


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 21, 2014)

zippyRN said:


> the fact is some on the left have a horrid  habit of  comparing the  CAPital EXpenditure on the buildings (i.e. what it costs to build it)  in PFIs with the total  cost of the contract including  the 'mortgage' , maintainance and other  FM services.


I know what capex means you frothing loon - i was talking about the deliberate use of it as a term in order to buff credentials rather than saying capital expenditure.  And if you think i'm going to waste my time debating PFI with a far-right caricature like you, well, i'm not.


----------



## nino_savatte (Dec 21, 2014)

zippyRN said:


> Especially as Equality of opportunity  is  about  pulling the ladder up to the height that the  Tractor Production commissars   have been told to set it at , rather than equity of opportunity  which   means the  ladder  gets lowered as well as pulled up ...  but  as we know from the 13 glorious years of  the Dear Leader and the Great Leader  a focus on 'education,  education, education ' began with the dismantling of two schemes which encouraged innovation and  development as well as providing  wider access  in favour of  their  own brand of statist authoritarian cronyism.


Impenetrable.


----------



## zippyRN (Dec 21, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> I know what capex means you frothing loon - i was talking about the deliberate use of it as a term in order to buff credentials rather than saying capital expenditure.  And if you think i'm going to waste my time debating PFI with a far-right caricature like you, well, i'm not.



'far right ' 

that really has made me laugh, a change from being called a  pinko liberal commie handwringer on other sites  I frequent -  places where the tea party  look like a bunch of moderates.  The 'powerfully built'  'company directors'   on one site in particular  really  embody  Asimov's  opinion of Libertarians 

that really does sum up part of the problem with Urban  and with the 'right on ' radical left in general their grossly distorted  sense of reality ...


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 21, 2014)

zippyRN said:


> 'far right '
> 
> that really has made me laugh, a change from being called a  pinko liberal commie handwringer on other sites  I frequent -  places where the tea party  look like a bunch of moderates.  The 'powerfully built'  'company directors'   on one site in particular  really  embody  Asimov's  opinion of Libertarians
> 
> that really does sum up part of the problem with Urban  and with the 'right on ' radical left in general their grossly distorted  sense of reality ...


Read you posts back - it's like a private schoolboy parody. 
_
I must be doing something right if *everyone *thinks i'm a cunt_. Logic there zippy, logic.


----------



## treelover (Dec 21, 2014)

zippyRN said:


> in the best tradition of any organisation  where ( in the run up to christmas)  things have got to be done the  turkeys  are waving pictures of geese ...
> 
> The  labour party and the Left (in general)'s propaganda machines  continually confuse the services the NHS provide  and the  clause 4 esque structural   mismanagment of the  providers  in a hope that their union paymasters will be sated .
> 
> ...




Luckily, you are in a very very tiny minority who want to see the NHS privatised, the public will in the U.K is that the NHS remains a state run entity free at the point of delivery/use.


----------



## zippyRN (Dec 21, 2014)

being told i resmember a schoolboy parody  by  someone on Urban  ...  oh the huge  manatee !


----------



## Blagsta (Dec 21, 2014)

zippyRN said:


> Especially as Equality of opportunity  is  about  pulling the ladder up to the height that the  Tractor Production commissars   have been told to set it at , rather than equity of opportunity  which   means the  ladder  gets lowered as well as pulled up ...  but  as we know from the 13 glorious years of  the Dear Leader and the Great Leader  a focus on 'education,  education, education ' began with the dismantling of two schemes which encouraged innovation and  development as well as providing  wider access  in favour of  their  own brand of statist authoritarian cronyism.



This wouldn't be out of place on The Telegraph comments section.


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 21, 2014)

zippyRN said:


> being told i resmember a schoolboy parody  by  someone on Urban  ...  oh the huge  manatee !


No one said it mattered. Clearly it doesn't or you wouldn't carry on being such an anti-social loon. How's your private army going Harry?


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 21, 2014)

Blagsta said:


> This wouldn't be out of place on The Telegraph comments section.


It wouldn't be out of place in Spearhead.


----------



## zippyRN (Dec 21, 2014)

treelover said:


> Luckily, you are in a very very tiny minority who want to see the NHS privatised, the public will in the U.K is that the NHS remains a state run entity free at the point of delivery/use.



the majority of the public  don't care who owns  providers,  there are three things they want from the NHS; ( as is seen by the number of people who don't know  that  the vast majority of patient interactions  in the NHS since 1948 have been undertaken by Private providers - GPs)

1. timely access to routine services
2. reassurance that the service is there  and free at the point of need  should they have the need for expensive treatment following a life changing  accident or  diagnosis with a life or limb threatening  illness
3. evidence that the service is being managed prudently

The Left concentrates on baseless  fears over 2  i.e. 'shroud waving' while  'moving the conversation on '  (as I believe is the ideologically  approved  phraseology  from abour HQ ) about points 1 and 3 after the failures  of the  Blair - Brown regime ( record investment - in pointless lay managers   - while removing clinical posts and  downgrading others becasue  AfC was perverted to  fit the  aims of the lay management ) -   this of course fits in with the Uni(s)on agenda of  trying to maintain their undemocratic right to hold the  Country to ransom  when they don't get what they want ...  ( along with conveniently forgetting that they had been locked into a 9 % over  3 years deal   before  Brown's  proud claim to have 'abolished boom and bust' came unstuck )


----------



## two sheds (Dec 21, 2014)

DownwardDog said:


> This is balls. They're comparing the capex for building it with the total PFI repayments which includes 30+ years of service charges for crappy meals and washing shit stained sheets, etc.



Sorry if that quote turned out misleading. Immediately after that “3 billion” quote, Allyson Pollock said “For every PFI hospital that’s open and running you could have had three hospitals opening and running for the same price and that includes the staffing as well. “ which covers your point. (And perhaps if we weren't tied into that deal they might not be crappy meals.)  

And we are still tied into a £3 billion pound contract at the end of which we still don’t own the building. So the £170 million cost of the building should (I'd have thought) really be set against the services they’re providing. And, from a Select Committee report:



> 1.8 Distortions in decision-making
> 
> The Coventry Walsgrave hospital PFI is one an example of how PFI can distort decision-making. This project started out as a £30 million refurbishment, yet ended up as a £174 million new build. This had little to do with the health needs of the area and was instead due to the need to make the project achievable on the basis of private finance. (Pollock, Price and Shaoul.) http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld200910/ldselect/ldeconaf/63/09111003.htm



So two hospitals at Coventry were apparently to have been renovated for £30 million, but were demolished and one rebuilt for £410 million.


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 21, 2014)

zippyRN said:


> the majority of the public  don't care who owns  providers,  there are three things they want from the NHS;
> 
> 1. timely access to routine services
> 2. reassurance that the service is there  and free at the point of need  should they have the need for expensive treatment following a life changing  accident or  diagnosis with a life or threatening  illness
> 3. evidence that the service is being managed prudently


And a nationalised NHS. As poll after poll after poll for decade after decade after decade shows quite clearly and with no possibility of questioning.

Out of touch middle manager _waiting for the balloon to go up._


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## nino_savatte (Dec 21, 2014)

zippyRN said:


> the majority of the public don't care who owns providers


Really? Show me some evidence.


----------



## zippyRN (Dec 21, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> And a nationalised NHS. As poll after poll after poll for decade after decade after decade shows qiote clearly and with no possibility of questioning.
> 
> Out of touch middle manager _waiting for the balloon to go up._



 In touch frontline clinician , who can see through the  myths perpetuated by the undemocratic   wannabes  who can't get the power they crave   in actual politics because they, deep down, know they are unelectable outside their fan club.   

the problem is that the question over  the ownership of the NHS is painted   as a choice between the current bloated decaying corpse which encourtages mediocrity ( and  is full of 'unredundables'   plus of course the unison full time officers per trust who are  being paid by trusts to not do the job they were employed to do )  and the  obese waddling   corporate  monster that is the US  health industry


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## nino_savatte (Dec 21, 2014)

La preuve s'il vous plaît.


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## zippyRN (Dec 21, 2014)

nino_savatte said:


> Really? Show me some evidence.



other than most people don't realise their  GP is 'private' ( until  they  want something which isn't in the GMS contract)  and  until the botched  reform by  Blair and Brown of the GDP contract that their dentist was also a private business


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## nino_savatte (Dec 21, 2014)

zippyRN said:


> other than most people don't realise their  GP is 'private' ( until  they  want something which isn't in the GMS contract)  and  until the botched  reform by  Blair and Brown of the GDP contract that their dentist was also a private business


That isn't evidence. I'd like you to provide some evidence for your claim that "the majority of the public don't care who owns providers". If you're so sure this is the case, it shouldn't be too difficult for you to find some proof. Hmmm?


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## butchersapron (Dec 21, 2014)

zippyRN said:


> In touch frontline clinician , who can see through the  myths perpetuated by the undemocratic   wannabes  who can't get the power they crave   in actual politics because they, deep down, know they are unelectable outside their fan club.
> 
> the problem is that the question over  the ownership of the NHS is painted   as a choice between the current bloated decaying corpse which encourtages mediocrity ( and  is full of 'unredundables'   plus of course the unison full time officers per trust who are  being paid by trusts to not do the job they were employed to do )  and the  obese waddling   corporate  monster that is the US  health industry


Yeah, it is you zippy pinhead isn't it? I knew it.


----------



## treelover (Dec 21, 2014)

Anyone who describes the Labour Party as ' the left' has no right to be taken seriously, game over...


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## Blagsta (Dec 21, 2014)

I've never understood how you can be a nurse and right wing. All the evidence points to social understanding of health, not an individualist one.


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## Bernie Gunther (Dec 21, 2014)

Do we want to assume that zippy isn't just bullshitting about being a nurse to give their right-wing claptrap a veneer of bogus credibility ... ?

I'm feeling a bit sceptical on that point myself. 

What would count as credible evidence?


----------



## two sheds (Dec 21, 2014)

zippyRN said:


> the ownership of the NHS is painted   as a choice between the current bloated decaying corpse which encourtages mediocrity ( and  is full of 'unredundables'   plus of course the unison full time officers per trust who are  being paid by trusts to not do the job they were employed to do )



Are we talking about the same health service here? From that transcript (my bold): "The Commonwealth fund for example – a non partisan US research organisation – found the NHS to be the *best in the developed world * and the US – the model to which our politicians now aspire – the worst."



> and the  obese waddling   corporate  monster that is the US  health industry



well yes but that is the model the government has adopted and the one we're moving towards - that's the only "choice" that's on offer.


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## Blagsta (Dec 21, 2014)

Bernie Gunther said:


> Do we want to assume that zippy isn't just bullshitting about being a nurse to give their right-wing claptrap a veneer of bogus credibility ... ?
> 
> I'm feeling a bit sceptical on that point myself.
> 
> What would count as credible evidence?



I've encountered him on other message boards. I think he's genuine.


----------



## DotCommunist (Dec 21, 2014)

people don't really care who runs services?

thats some blind belief right there. How come every sell off is widely decried? how come the current government promised not to fuck about with the NHS? How come every election time the NHS is a political football with each stripe of neoliberal promising on thier honour not to fuck with it?


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Dec 21, 2014)

Blagsta said:


> I've encountered him on other message boards. I think he's genuine.



Fair enough.


----------



## _angel_ (Dec 21, 2014)

Blagsta said:


> I've never understood how you can be a nurse and right wing. All the evidence points to social understanding of health, not an individualist one.


I dunno, but quite easily I'd have thought. Same for all emergency services as well.


----------



## two sheds (Dec 21, 2014)

There's all sorts of good quotes in that film. While we're on the subject of privatization (for those who didn't read all of it): 



> British Rail was run down for some years systematically before the privatisation, and in fact that is a standard privatisation strategy – it makes it easier. The expert on this is Oliver Letwin MP and he has written a nice book called ‘Privatising the World’ in 1988, and in that he sets out a number of important tactics for governments who are trying to privatise public services against the wishes of their population. And among them ... is to restrict the budget so that public service gets worse and worse and worse and then privatisation can be represented as a step up ... So it’s a deliberate policy.


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## butchersapron (Dec 21, 2014)

two sheds said:


> There's all sorts of good quotes in that film. While we're on the subject of privatization (for those who didn't read all of it):


See royal mail for a good example too.


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## DotCommunist (Dec 21, 2014)

what got me with Royal Mail was the deliberate underselling to their mates who then cleaned up when the share prices shot up. Just brazen.


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## butchersapron (Dec 21, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> what got me with Royal Mail was the deliberate underselling to their mates who then cleaned up when the share prices shot up. Just brazen.


You'd have loved the 80s. Sid did.


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## DotCommunist (Dec 21, 2014)

and they can claim incompetence- to a level I'd call malfeasance- but we know they had finance industry advice that the company was worth more than they were flogging it for.


----------



## two sheds (Dec 21, 2014)

The woman shown on that you tube video screen is a star (as is Allyson Pollock), it was her who said



> The government is still pursing PFI either because their friends make a lot of money out of it, or because they’re ideologically committed to this, or because they’re stupid quite frankly.


----------



## DotCommunist (Dec 21, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> You'd have loved the 80s. Sid did.


I do hope thats not a pistols refernce


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 21, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> I do hope thats not a pistols refernce


 Tell Sid


----------



## snadge (Dec 21, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> I do hope thats not a pistols refernce



The BT/BG/CEGB selloff, when most of our utilities were sold.


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## agricola (Dec 21, 2014)

zippyRN said:


> the problem is that the question over  the ownership of the NHS is painted   as a choice between the current bloated decaying corpse which encourtages mediocrity ( and  is full of 'unredundables'   plus of course the unison full time officers per trust who are  being paid by trusts to not do the job they were employed to do )  and the  obese waddling   corporate  monster that is the US  health industry



There is some truth in this - though of course the threat of the US Health Industry is such that it makes sense to defend the NHS first, then appropriately reform it.


----------



## agricola (Dec 21, 2014)

two sheds said:


> The woman shown on that you tube video screen is a star (as is Allyson Pollock), it was her who said



A little from column A, a little from column B.  No-one is ideologically committed to PFI, though


----------



## Blagsta (Dec 21, 2014)

_angel_ said:


> I dunno, but quite easily I'd have thought. Same for all emergency services as well.



Maybe I'm being naive, but nurses are supposed to work to the best available evidence


----------



## free spirit (Dec 21, 2014)

zippyRN said:


> the majority of the public  don't care who owns  providers,  there are three things they want from the NHS; ( as is seen by the number of people who don't know  that  the vast majority of patient interactions  in the NHS since 1948 have been undertaken by Private providers - GPs)


You're missing a key major difference between the 2 though.

GP and Dentists practices were traditionally owned and run as partnerships by the senior qualified GP's and Dentists who were working within those practices, so virtually a workers co-operative type model (although only the senior's would be partners).

They were not multinational companies who's board is made up almost exclusively of economics, PPE and similar graduates, or sales types, with barely a medical background between them, and who's only guiding principle is to squeeze as much profit as they can from their public sector contracts.

If you genuinely can't see the differences between the 2 models, then you obviously must have been badly infected by those right wing sites you've been spending time on.


----------



## Blagsta (Dec 21, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> I do hope thats not a pistols refernce


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 21, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> I do hope thats not a pistols refernce


sid little


----------



## free spirit (Dec 21, 2014)

There's a pretty damning article in this weeks Private Eye on this subject btw.

Apparently when the privatisation of the NHS started the government promised that all private providers would be properly vetted, but according to their investigation, there is no national organisation vetting these companies, no list of approved companies, no list of banned companies, no central register of companies that have fucked up and been kicked off previous NHS or other public sector contracts, nothing at all.

So the vetting is being left to individual NHS trusts, and GP commissioning groups, each of which could easily be financially crippled by any multinational they tried to exclude from the bidding process who took them to court for it, so effectively the big corporations have been given full license to bully their way into theses contracts, an there's no organisation that has the financial clout to actually hold them to account properly once they have those contracts.


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## nino_savatte (Dec 21, 2014)

Here's the current government's idea of vetting.

Hunt: What school did you go to?
Rentier cunt: Charterhouse
Hunt: Same as me. You've got the contract.


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## two sheds (Dec 21, 2014)

agricola said:


> No-one is ideologically committed to PFI, though



oo I dunno - if the ideology is "to appear to be keeping finances under control", in this case by keeping costs off the balance sheet. And many are in favour of private rather than public finance on principle - that sounds ideological to me.


----------



## zippyRN (Dec 21, 2014)

Blagsta said:


> I've never understood how you can be a nurse and right wing. All the evidence points to social understanding of health, not an individualist one.



Define 'right wing ' ...  the problem most health professionals who have right of centre views have is the way in which they are characterised  by  the  leftist Trade Union types as being some some of ' capitalist running dog lackey ' for  big business ...  it is possible to have a social conscience  beyond   just writing cheques  to  the charity du jour when it is good PR  and still have a belief in a none statist none authoritarian system without becoming a rampant  libertarian or Freewibbler 

Are People like Cadbury, Lever and Salt   'un-understandable', they understood the close links between health and welfare and the ability  of their workforce to deliver what they wanted ( a solid days work ), you can argue the actions of them and other entrepreneurs with a philanthropic and social conscience was patriarchal and  interventional/ authoritarian  ( especially when Methodist religious   doctrine comes into play ) . 

and without sounding   like Blair there is a 'third way'  but it;s the  war between the ' the left' ( the trades unions and the trots) and the 'right'  ( the  'nationalist'/ patriots , the 'religious right'  and the  libertarians )


if BR was run  down prior to privatisation  explain  the class 15x DMUs , the class 91 +mk 4  for the east coast electrification etc etc  as well as the EMUs  in the Network South east area  in the 1980s - explain network South east ( ok that  was also preparatrion for privatisation ) also the frieght railway has had far less  interventional Statist  fiddling  and is doing well - so well that  NR is investing in upgrading   routes which were previously considered marginal and kept open in part becasue of 'social railway' stuff as well as freioght flows  to deal with increased frieght volumes and to take frieght off the Major 'main lines' to allow more paths  for passenger  services ...


----------



## nino_savatte (Dec 21, 2014)

Jesus H Christ!


----------



## Blagsta (Dec 21, 2014)

There's a third position is there? Where have I heard that before.


----------



## zippyRN (Dec 21, 2014)

Blagsta said:


> I've encountered him on other message boards. I think he's genuine.



or some of my postings on clinical topics, which would  mean a huge list of co-morbidities , intergalactic google-fu  or  the occam's razor answer - that in fact i am a Nurse ...


----------



## zippyRN (Dec 21, 2014)

Blagsta said:


> There's a third position is there? Where have I heard that before.


 a phrase now rendered unusable by   it's appropriation by  Blair   for his bizarre mixture of Statist authoritarianism, bread and circuses and crony capitalism ....


----------



## DotCommunist (Dec 21, 2014)

Blagsta said:


> There's a third position is there? Where have I heard that before.




beyond left and right


----------



## nino_savatte (Dec 21, 2014)

zippyRN said:


> a phrase now rendered unusable by   it's appropriation by  Blair   for his bizarre mixture of Statist authoritarianism, bread and circuses and crony capitalism ....


No, that was called the Third _Way_. You know perfectly well what is meant by the term 'Third Position'.


----------



## zippyRN (Dec 21, 2014)

Blagsta said:


> Maybe I'm being naive, but nurses are supposed to work to the best available evidence



and that best available evidence is 13 years of failure 1997- 2010 and it's legacy. 

4 hour A+E target  - no real evidence base to choose 4 hours  for the door to door  time -  the  1980s style  4+ hour waits to be seen  couldn't continue, 

Ambulance ORCON  response standards - no clinical evidence

18 weeks  elective treatment  standard - again a figure pulled out of the air 

'2 week  rule'  ropey  evidence - but  arguably the concept is sound 

re-writes of GMS and GDP contracts and the  cockups they have created ...   ( 

The problem is that the  populous  don;t believe the truth of what has gone on in the  NHS becasue they struggle to  detect the truth  among all the  shroud waving from  Unison et al ( whose primary aim in all this isto  maintain their position as  one of the largest unions and able to threaten to bring the country to it's knees  when they don;t get what they want ) and the green inkers   who refuse to accept  Occam's razor is a valid premise  and/or  aren't taking their meds  ( ref conspiracies against them  etc )


----------



## Blagsta (Dec 21, 2014)

zippyRN said:


> a phrase now rendered unusable by   it's appropriation by  Blair   for his bizarre mixture of Statist authoritarianism, bread and circuses and crony capitalism ....



But it was usable before was it?


----------



## zippyRN (Dec 21, 2014)

nino_savatte said:


> No, that was called the Third _Way_. You know perfectly well what is meant by the term 'Third Position'.



as in the bizarre mixture of  'patriots' , 'anarchists as long as i'm in charge of the anarchy'  and  various other revolutionary fruitloops  and crusties who don;t want to be identified with Marx or Trotsky ...


----------



## nino_savatte (Dec 21, 2014)

zippyRN said:


> as in the bizarre mixture of  'patriots' , 'anarchists as long as i'm in charge of the anarchy'  and  various other revolutionary fruitloops  and crusties who don;t want to be identified with Marx or Trotsky ...


You're not making any sense. Did you scoop up a handful of words, put them into a pestle and mortar and smear them paste-like into your reply?


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 21, 2014)

zippyRN said:


> as in the bizarre mixture of  'patriots' , 'anarchists as long as i'm in charge of the anarchy'  and  various other revolutionary fruitloops  and crusties who don;t want to be identified with Marx or Trotsky ...


how many anarchists do you think were in the national front when griffin was in charge of it? genuine question


----------



## Blagsta (Dec 21, 2014)

zippyRN said:


> as in the bizarre mixture of  'patriots' , 'anarchists as long as i'm in charge of the anarchy'  and  various other revolutionary fruitloops  and crusties who don;t want to be identified with Marx or Trotsky ...



Wtf are you on about?


----------



## Blagsta (Dec 21, 2014)

zippyRN said:


> and that best available evidence is 13 years of failure 1997- 2010 and it's legacy.
> 
> 4 hour A+E target  - no real evidence base to choose 4 hours  for the door to door  time -  the  1980s style  4+ hour waits to be seen  couldn't continue,
> 
> ...



Wtf is this babble?


----------



## agricola (Dec 21, 2014)

two sheds said:


> oo I dunno - if the ideology is "to appear to be keeping finances under control", in this case by keeping costs off the balance sheet. And many are in favour of private rather than public finance on principle - that sounds ideological to me.



Thats what I mean though; if one is ideologically committed to keeping finances under control then you wouldnt use PFI because (a) it is almost always more expensive than either government expenditure or (especially in the current climate) government borrowing, and (b) it doesnt keep costs off the balance sheet in any real way.  If anyone is ideologically committed to PFI despite all of that, it leads one inevitably back to them preferring it _"because they are stupid, quite frankly"_.


----------



## free spirit (Dec 21, 2014)

agricola said:


> Thats what I mean though; if one is ideologically committed to keeping finances under control then you wouldnt use PFI because (a) it is almost always more expensive than either government expenditure or (especially in the current climate) government borrowing, and (b) it doesnt keep costs off the balance sheet in any real way.  If anyone is ideologically committed to PFI despite all of that, it leads one inevitably back to them preferring it _"because they are stupid, quite frankly"_.


They're ideologically wedded the the appearance of having the finances under control, rather than the reality of the situation in the longer term.

If they can cause major budget headaches for the successors then that's all to the good if it potentially shows them in a better light in comparison.

There's currently over £10 billion going to service the existing PFI contracts each year. That's a significant drain on public funds.


----------



## J Ed (Dec 21, 2014)

zippyRN said:


> a phrase now rendered unusable by   it's appropriation by  Blair   for his bizarre mixture of Statist authoritarianism, bread and circuses and crony capitalism ....



You are defending PFI and using the term 'crony capitalism' as an insult. You are a very confused joke, I bet you supported the bank bailouts too.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Dec 21, 2014)

agricola said:


> Thats what I mean though; if one is ideologically committed to keeping finances under control then you wouldnt use PFI because (a) it is almost always more expensive than either government expenditure or (especially in the current climate) government borrowing, and (b) it doesnt keep costs off the balance sheet in any real way.  If anyone is ideologically committed to PFI despite all of that, it leads one inevitably back to them preferring it _"because they are stupid, quite frankly"_.


I think there was a serious ideological commitment to PFI under NL certainly, along with a lot of other "market liberalisation" and, simplistically, "private is best" stuff; it isn't like it didn't look like a terrible deal at the time financially after all.


----------



## J Ed (Dec 21, 2014)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I think there was a serious ideological commitment to PFI under NL certainly, along with a lot of other "market liberalisation" and, simplistically, "private is best" stuff; it isn't like it didn't look like a terrible deal at the time financially after all.



Which makes zippy's outbursts even more confusing


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Dec 21, 2014)

Thinking more about what I mean to say, it's not even as straightforward as a belief in the free market or any of that sort of thing. There were people around who really did believe in the whole "public private partnership" concept, that public services would be much better off with "private sector rigour" and outsourcing but could remain public services, authentic Third Way believers.

I worked for a company that provided services to the NHS for a while in the 00s (admittedly things that the NHS simply couldn't do then, though IMO it _should_ have and could have been able to, but that's another story) and used to come across these people in management positions in PCTs sometimes. They were proper zealots.

That isn't to say there wasn't also cynical public purse profiteering and directorship hunting going on of course.


----------



## zippyRN (Dec 21, 2014)

J Ed said:


> You are defending PFI and using the term 'crony capitalism' as an insult. You are a very confused joke, I bet you supported the bank bailouts too.



what PFI delivers , when you strip the bile and mistruths  out of the Left's  reporting of it  is

- New facilities of a substantially higher  quality  - in the case of hospitals the PFI  refurbs / new builds were to the new accomodation standards os  50 %  single ensuite rooms,  the  50 % in bays  were 4 bedded bays not  6 or 8  and the  toilet and showere were accessed from the bay not shared  facilities across ( and down ) corridors , built to modern energey  efficiency standard and to  current  buidling regs and  fire standards ( unlike a lot of  ww2 to  1990s stuff built under 'crown exemptions'  and  now requiring substantial corrective work )

- facilities managmeent  contracts with teeth - unlike the  facilities  management and building services  behaviours that typified  NHS  managed services  during the same period 

 there is a lot of spin over the PFI payments and what they cover or  don't cover  - plus where the risks  of none -compliance lay


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## J Ed (Dec 21, 2014)

zippyRN said:


> what PFI delivers , when you strip the bile and mistruths  out of the Left's  reporting of it



Who is 'the left'? Those radical Marxists in the Tory Party via the Telegraph?

I'm not going to bother debating PFI with you because it is a waste of time, no one really disputes its failures other than wingnuts and those who benefit from it financially. 

What I wanted from you is a definition of 'crony capitalism'.


----------



## nino_savatte (Dec 21, 2014)

J Ed said:


> Which makes zippy's outbursts even more confusing


He's more Bungle than Zippy.


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## zippyRN (Dec 21, 2014)

J Ed said:


> What I wanted from you is a definition of 'crony capitalism'.


 in the case of Blair 

i'm going to get rid of GM status for schools, but you can have the freedoms back as long as you bring in a an ideologically  approved corporate parnter ... 

and the Human rights act was, is and remains  driven by a  want to keep his and his missus mates in  profitable practice ...


----------



## Dogsauce (Dec 22, 2014)

Is this Richard Littlejohn or something?


----------



## brogdale (Dec 22, 2014)

Dogsauce said:


> Is this Richard Littlejohn or something?


more Liddle than Littlejohn?


----------



## seventh bullet (Dec 22, 2014)

'Hold the country to ransom' made an appearance.


----------



## Dogsauce (Dec 22, 2014)

Does anyone have a right wing trope bingo card?  I spotted 'human rights'.


----------



## brogdale (Jan 6, 2015)

11 trusts now declaring "major" or "significant" incidents...and Cunt twerts this cobblers..


----------



## nino_savatte (Jan 6, 2015)

Rhyming-Slang loves his 'facts' doesn't he?


----------



## JTG (Jan 6, 2015)

brogdale said:


> 11 trusts now declaring "major" or "significant" incidents.


Oh there's far more than that, those are just the ones the Graun has found out about.

Every day of my working life has been massively affected by this for weeks now. It's exhausting


----------



## JTG (Jan 6, 2015)

As for Hunt: yeah, far more people in A&E and a bed shortage all over. This is what happens when community services get cut, A&E is the first port of call for many because there isn't anything else. Disingenuous twat.

Thanks for praising the staff though. Can I have his wage please?


----------



## Dogsauce (Jan 7, 2015)

With all the chaos in casualty on the news, the worrying thing is that we haven't had a serious sustained period of cold weather this winter yet, which is usually what gets blamed for overloading A&E, when there's a sudden influx of people with broken wrists etc after slipping on ice (as well as hypothermic pensioners). Really hope we don't get a sudden cold snap, it'd really fuck things up.

Despite Hunt's glib excuses, the vermin actually want things like this so they can point out that 'the system is broken' and use it as the reason for bringing in further changes towards the eventual break-up of the service. Scum.


----------



## two sheds (Jan 7, 2015)

Yep, from Sell Off (good video on what's happening in the NHS with Peter Bach interviewing a load of doctors about privatization, including Allyson Pollock, Jackie Davis and Clive Peedell):



> British Rail was run down for some years systematically before the privatisation, and in fact that is a standard privatisation strategy – it makes it easier. The expert on this is Oliver Letwin MP and he has written a nice book called ‘Privatising the World’ in 1988, and in that he sets out a number of important tactics for governments who are trying to privatise public services against the wishes of their population. And among them there are a couple of key steps and one is to restrict the budget so that public service gets worse and worse and worse and then privatisation can be represented as a step up which of course in practice generally it is not, but if you make the public service bad enough people will perceive it that way. So it’s a deliberate policy.


----------



## coley (Jan 7, 2015)

A couple of points, does anyone else on here have an GPs out hour of hours service that consistently has a waiting time of six hours? Given the 4 hour AE target this comes across as a deliberate attempt to foist people needing attention into AE. 
Would anyone have any objection to reporters repeatedly reporting the problem being largely down to the ageing population being crossbowed in the face?


----------



## danny la rouge (Jan 7, 2015)

two sheds said:


> Yep, from Sell Off (good video on what's happening in the NHS with Peter Bach interviewing a load of doctors about privatization, including Allyson Pollock, Jackie Davis and Clive Peedell):


Re your quote: that's exactly what they're doing. Which is why a strong public defence of both the NHS and the principle of  universality is required. When someone does down the NHS, we need to uphold its principles, or when headlines outline problems, we need to make sure we respond that these problems are a result of deliberate policy. 

Privatisation is only inevitable if we let them win the propaganda war.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jan 7, 2015)

Hunt's my MP. We're all in this together, just an ordinary lad; elder son of Admiral Hunt, Charterhouse, Magdalen (PPE, obvs), straight in to management consultancy (how can you do this with no experience of anything? Ah, family connections...), when that went wrong he ran off to Japan TEFL, came home, numerous failed business ventures, then he founds a PR company and immediately gets clients such as BT.

So just an ordinary lad done good through hard work etc. 

If teachers hated Gove, NHS staff should be giving Hunt a practical demonstration of what it's like to wait 12 hours to have your broken legs seen to.


----------



## two sheds (Jan 7, 2015)

I should have put up link for the Sell Off video (although I think I linked to it before): 
()

Really worth watching. 

Also KONP (Keep Our NHS Public) which I've been meaning to join and will do now.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 7, 2015)

coley said:


> A couple of points, does anyone else on here have an GPs out hour of hours service that consistently has a waiting time of six hours? Given the 4 hour AE target this comes across as a deliberate attempt to foist people needing attention into AE.
> Would anyone have any objection to reporters repeatedly reporting the problem being largely down to the ageing population being crossbowed in the face?



From what was said on a R4 programme last week, 6 hours is the standard.
And the whole "ageing population" _schtick_ is way too simplified. The real fact is that in the last 20 years we've found treatments for certain previously-fatal illnesses and cancers that are allowing people to live longer. This would happen in any population, ageing or otherwise. Add in the fact that many of those living longer will still have health conditions as a *consequence* of their treatment, and that's a rather large "bump" in terms of need.


----------



## FiFi (Jan 7, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> From what was said on a R4 programme last week, 6 hours is the standard.
> And the whole "ageing population" _schtick_ is way too simplified. The real fact is that in the last 20 years we've found treatments for certain previously-fatal illnesses and cancers that are allowing people to live longer. This would happen in any population, ageing or otherwise. Add in the fact that many of those living longer will still have health conditions as a *consequence* of their treatment, and that's a rather large "bump" in terms of need.


I agree with this, and would add that many people who have chronic illness require treatment outside of hospital and the loss of many District Nurse posts over the past few years is making this difficult to access


----------



## JTG (Jan 8, 2015)

We discharged somebody home the other day - got a call from the crew to say there was no way the patient was mobile enough to be left safely (lay out of home was unsuitable). No carers, community nurses etc available, no family - back to hospital. Another patient last week wasn't going to be accepted by the care home initially as they said they were too unwell to be looked after there. Had to act as go-between with the hospital and care home to get them to talk to each other and sort it out while we were left holding the patient.


----------



## brogdale (Jan 8, 2015)

JTG said:


> We discharged somebody home the other day - got a call from the crew to say there was no way the patient was mobile enough to be left safely (lay out of home was unsuitable). No carers, community nurses etc available, no family - back to hospital. Another patient last week wasn't going to be accepted by the care home initially as they said they were too unwell to be looked after there. Had to act as go-between with the hospital and care home to get them to talk to each other and sort it out while we were left holding the patient.


Don't these oldsters understand that the market will find a solution?


----------



## Roadkill (Jan 9, 2015)

Circle are trying to walk away from the contract to run Hitchingbrooke Hospital, blaming funding cuts and A&E demand.  Presumably they'll get a sympathetic hearing from government and right-wing press, whereas when the public sector warn about the impact of funding cuts we're just a bunch of whining lefties...


----------



## Dan U (Jan 9, 2015)

Roadkill said:


> Circle are trying to walk away from the contract to run Hitchingbrooke Hospital, blaming funding cuts and A&E demand.  Presumably they'll get a sympathetic hearing from government and right-wing press, whereas when the public sector warn about the impact of funding cuts we're just a bunch of whining lefties...


Was about to make exactly this point. 

What the free market types will ignore is that when the private sector operator has faced exactly the same conditions as every other hospital in England it is trying to do a bunk. 

What if we had 30 hospitals run by circle today. We would have a crisis. 

Fuck them. Fuck the whole idea. See you later Circle


----------



## Sprocket. (Jan 9, 2015)

The increase in the elderly population and patients surviving illnesses that were fatal only a couple of decades ago are testament to the success of the NHS and the supporting social care in the community.
Sadly the route to sell offs, privatisation and the loss of community social care for the elderly and infirm will quickly see the return of pre-1940s levels of care, concern and compassion for our vulnerable.
All parties are to blame and we should be more concerned at fighting them every step of the way.
Far too much ground has already been lost.
Far too many people do not care.


----------



## Dan U (Jan 9, 2015)

I wouldn't be surprised if a deal is done to keep Circle in place. 

The argument for private sector running of entire hospitals will be sunk if they go, I wonder if that will be allowed to happen.


----------



## two sheds (Jan 9, 2015)

I wonder whether people like 38 Degrees and the like aren't one way to go? I understand why people don't like them but surely if you treat them like a news source it's a good way to get the message across. For example petitions for things like MPs not to be allowed to vote where they have a financial interest (200 have 'potential' conflicts of interest with NHS I've seen, which I presume means 'actual' conflicts of interest), and PFI deals not being allowed at the present extortionate rates? 

Not that it would change anything, but you could draw attention to some of the excesses, outline what's going on, and possibly point to some of the organizations fighting nhs privatization? 

<<waits for hails of derisive laughter >>


----------



## Roadkill (Jan 9, 2015)

Dan U said:


> The argument for private sector running of entire hospitals will be sunk if they go



I'm not sure that's necessarily the case tbh.  So long as it's only them it can be spun as an isolated case; an early contract before the system was properly established; mistakes were made and lessons will be learned, and all that bollocks.


----------



## JTG (Jan 9, 2015)

It demonstrates that it's impossible to square the circle of making a profit out of catering to the healthcare needs of the entire population. The solution - cherry pick those who you can make a profit out of. The easier to care for, those more able to pay a premium, those who live in more accessible places. And so forth


----------



## two sheds (Jan 9, 2015)

I presume if TTIP were in place we'd not be able to take it back into public control, and would be forced to increase payments to whatever the private providers demanded.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 9, 2015)

Roadkill said:


> Circle are trying to walk away from the contract to run Hitchingbrooke Hospital, blaming funding cuts and A&E demand.  Presumably they'll get a sympathetic hearing from government and right-wing press, whereas when the public sector warn about the impact of funding cuts we're just a bunch of whining lefties...



This'll be the same Circle that's recently "won" tenders to provide services to healthcare trusts? How very unsurprising.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 9, 2015)

Sprocket. said:


> Far too many people do not care.



And, as always, the old saw "don't care was made to care" will come true.


----------



## Roadkill (Jan 9, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> This'll be the same Circle that's recently "won" tenders to provide services to healthcare trusts? How very unsurprising.



I'm shocked.  Shocked, I tell you!

*edit* Meanwhile, in equally unshocking news, Circle's shares have taken a nosedive.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Jan 9, 2015)

Dan U said:


> I wouldn't be surprised if a deal is done to keep Circle in place.
> 
> The argument for private sector running of entire hospitals will be sunk if they go, I wonder if that will be allowed to happen.



A Tory spokesman on Radio 4 this morning was arguing that the company had been laid low by the amount of debt they had to take on; he called for the renegotiation of contracts with the debt reduced. So the market will work if it is protected from risk by the public purse...which is of course bollocks!

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## Dan U (Jan 9, 2015)

We take the risk, they take the profits...


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Jan 9, 2015)

Dan U said:


> We take the risk, they take the profits...



Absolutely because in a bizarre inversion of priorities protection of the market (an abstract human construct) is placed above protection of people (real, live, flesh and blood human beings); it seems we are never to question the market  but we should be happy to subjugate ourselves to it. Very odd indeed.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## treelover (Jan 9, 2015)

Dan U said:


> I wouldn't be surprised if a deal is done to keep Circle in place.
> 
> The argument for private sector running of entire hospitals will be sunk if they go, I wonder if that will be allowed to happen.



How robust will Labour be in taking up this issue?


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jan 9, 2015)

treelover said:


> How robust will Labour be in taking up this issue?



Wet spaghetti


----------



## 8115 (Jan 9, 2015)

I didn't realise they were only two years into a 10 year contract.

I was thinking this morning, about 10 trusts declaring major incidents, not because of flu, or an actual incident, just because they literally cannot meet demand, ten years ago this would have been inconceiveable.  The running into the ground argument has a lot going for it.


----------



## cantsin (Jan 9, 2015)

Roadkill said:


> Circle are trying to walk away from the contract to run Hitchingbrooke Hospital, blaming funding cuts and A&E demand.  Presumably they'll get a sympathetic hearing from government and right-wing press, whereas when the public sector warn about the impact of funding cuts we're just a bunch of whining lefties...



NU Lab were reponsible for this deal initially weren't they ?


----------



## Roadkill (Jan 9, 2015)

cantsin said:


> NU Lab were reponsible for this deal initially weren't they ?



Yes, they were, which is why they're hamstrung in opposing it now.

Labour and the Tories: two cheeks of the same flatulent arse.


----------



## cantsin (Jan 9, 2015)

Roadkill said:


> Yes, they were, which is why they're hamstrung in opposing it now.
> 
> Labour and the Tories: two cheeks of the same flatulent arse.



#DontVote


----------



## Sprocket. (Jan 9, 2015)

cantsin said:


> NU Lab were reponsible for this deal initially weren't they ?



Thatcher claimed her greatest achievement was Tony Blair and Nu Labour!


----------



## Roadkill (Jan 9, 2015)

Sprocket. said:


> Thatcher claimed her greatest achievement was Tony Blair and Nu Labour!



Major said much the same.



cantsin said:


> #DontVote



A risk of a derail, I wouldn't go that far.  In a city that's being hammered by spending cuts that have been calibrated to hit non-Tory-voting areas hardest, a Labour government is our only realistic hope of being treated slightly less unfairly in the next parliament, and if I thought my (Labour) MP was vulnerable I'd vote for her.  She isn't, though, so I won't.


----------



## cantsin (Jan 9, 2015)

Roadkill said:


> Major said much the same.
> 
> 
> 
> A risk of a derail, I wouldn't go that far.  In a city that's being hammered by spending cuts that have been calibrated to hit non-Tory-voting areas hardest, a Labour government is our only realistic hope of being treated slightly less unfairly in the next parliament, and if I thought my (Labour) MP was vulnerable I'd vote for her.  She isn't, though, so I won't.




NHS privatisers are NHS privatisers, Cons / Labs, no difference - economically/enviromentally/geo-politically : time has run out on any pretence all this can be reformed, the lower the vote, the closer we're getting to the prospect of a real solution imo.

(aka:trying to cope with existential January gloom as RT Today blares out the same news from Paris on loop )


----------



## Roadkill (Jan 9, 2015)

cantsin said:


> NHS privatisers are NHS privatisers, Cons / Labs, no difference - economically/enviromentally/geo-politically : time has run out on any pretence all this can be reformed, the lower the vote, the closer we're getting to the prospect of a real solution imo.



I wish I could believe that.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 9, 2015)

4 years of tory cuts and the strains showing at the seams just in time for whats going to be a vicious election year. Cunts.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 9, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> 4 years of tory cuts and the strains showing at the seams just in time for whats going to be a vicious election year. Cunts.


not just at the seams if everything said about a&e is true


----------



## zippyRN (Jan 9, 2015)

Roadkill said:


> Circle are trying to walk away from the contract to run Hitchingbrooke Hospital, blaming funding cuts and A&E demand.  Presumably they'll get a sympathetic hearing from government and right-wing press, whereas when the public sector warn about the impact of funding cuts we're just a bunch of whining lefties...



  hinchingbrooke was an 'interesting' choice 

one of the smallest  none  tertiary -only  trusts 
in a weak position to attract  staff 
no money attracting services


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 9, 2015)

zippyRN said:


> hinchingbrooke was an 'interesting' choice
> 
> one of the smallest  none  tertiary -only  trusts
> in a weak position to attract  staff
> no money attracting services


so what you're saying is there was never any chance of them making money of it. which is strange, as businesses usually go into business to, er, make money.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 9, 2015)

What's the point of a contract if only one party is obliged to honour their end of it?


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 9, 2015)

SpookyFrank said:


> What's the point of a contract if only one party is obliged to honour their end of it?


when you enter into a contract with a government to run public services the idea is to do as little as possible while sucking the public money into private hands ennit. Like g4s, crapita and all those other tea leafs


----------



## zippyRN (Jan 9, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> so what you're saying is there was never any chance of them making money of it. which is strange, as businesses usually go into business to, er, make money.



I think Circle were hoping to busk it  ,  survive the term   claim success  and then look at  getting control of a trust they could make money from  ( Hinchingbrooke is only 200 ish beds  -  but  the support services needed for  1000 beds over  a couple of sites isn;t 5 times more expensive  - if you look at the care home market   new builds are typically 80 -150 beds  per site divided into 30 ish bed units  - to get the economy of scale  for  catering / maintaiance / housekeeping  -  but  compare the support services required for 200 beds in  a Hospital caliming to be a DGH with critical care, Operatign theatres etcs   with the support services for 120 bed care home / Indepednent Mental Health Hospital or even a  elective only  Private Hospital ... )


----------



## zippyRN (Jan 9, 2015)

SpookyFrank said:


> What's the point of a contract if only one party is obliged to honour their end of it?



ask the Labour apparatchiks who put the break clause into the contract  with Circle for Hinchingbrooke


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 9, 2015)

still saying 'apparatchiks' near 20 years since the SU was a thing...


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 9, 2015)

zippyRN said:


> ask the Labour apparatchiks who put the break clause into the contract  with Circle for Hinchingbrooke



And if the government broke the contract off they'd have had to pay a huge penalty no doubt.


----------



## brogdale (Jan 9, 2015)

Dan U said:


> I wouldn't be surprised if a deal is done to keep Circle in place.
> 
> The argument for private sector running of entire hospitals will be sunk if they go, I wonder if that will be allowed to happen.



Yep, surely this piece of fundie-neolib driven policy is an idea that's "too big to fail"?


----------



## MrSki (Jan 10, 2015)




----------



## Roadkill (Jan 10, 2015)

zippyRN said:


> hinchingbrooke was an 'interesting' choice
> 
> one of the smallest  none  tertiary -only  trusts
> in a weak position to attract  staff
> no money attracting services



It was quite an obvious choice really, since it was struggling badly anyway.  For pro-privatisation types it was therefore an opportunity to demonstrate that turning hospitals over to the private sector could work and could bring improvements.  The problem for them is that it didn't.


----------



## zippyRN (Jan 10, 2015)

Roadkill said:


> It was quite an obvious choice really, since it was struggling badly anyway.  For pro-privatisation types it was therefore an opportunity to demonstrate that turning hospitals over to the private sector could work and could bring improvements.  The problem for them is that it didn't.



where the slightly  larger Mid Staffs  ( complete with excuses for a night of long knives across the the management corridors ) or  rather larger and  has profitable tertiary services but   ius a managerial cluster  Mid Yorks  weren;t ?


----------



## Roadkill (Jan 10, 2015)

zippyRN said:


> where the slightly  larger Mid Staffs  ( complete with excuses for a night of long knives across the the management corridors ) or  rather larger and  has profitable tertiary services but   ius a managerial cluster  Mid Yorks  weren;t ?



I don't know why they privatised HItchingbrooke but not Mid-Staffs.  Do you?

The fact remains that privatising Hitchingbrooke didn't work, though, as the CQC report has amply illustrated.


----------



## 8ball (Jan 10, 2015)

Roadkill said:


> The fact remains that privatising Hitchingbrooke didn't work, though...



What, you mean it actually lost money for the rich investors?


----------



## 8115 (Jan 10, 2015)

8ball said:


> What, you mean it actually lost money for the rich investors?


Service was poor quality too. On the news it said staff were very unhappy.


----------



## 8ball (Jan 10, 2015)

8115 said:


> Service was poor quality too. On the news it said staff were very unhappy.



Yes, yes, but did it lose money for the investors?


----------



## zippyRN (Jan 10, 2015)

MrSki said:


>


 
relevance to the Hinchingbrooke deal  = fuck all  given the deal was  set up in 2008/9 ... 

but as this is Urban  never let the truth  get in the way of bashing the Conservative party ...


----------



## teqniq (Jan 10, 2015)

zippyRN said:


> ... but as this is Urban  never let the truth  get in the way of bashing the Conservative party ...


No indeed. I wouldn't piss on any of them to put them out if they were on fire in the middle of the street.


----------



## Roadkill (Jan 10, 2015)

zippyRN said:


> relevance to the Hinchingbrooke deal  = fuck all  given the deal was  set up in 2008/9 ...
> 
> but as this is Urban  never let the truth  get in the way of bashing the Conservative party ...



No-one's defending Labour, but the Tory scum deserve all they get.


----------



## zippyRN (Jan 10, 2015)

Roadkill said:


> No-one's defending Labour, but the Tory scum deserve all they get.



as i said ...but as this is Urban never let the truth get in the way of bashing the Conservative party ...


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 10, 2015)

its the electorate who give them the biggest bashing which is why they haven't won  an election in over 20 years


----------



## Roadkill (Jan 10, 2015)

zippyRN said:


> as i said ...but as this is Urban never let the truth get in the way of bashing the Conservative party ...



You wouldn't know truth if it jumped up and punched you in the face.  If you don't like it here, feel free to fuck off.  You wouldn't be missed.


----------



## zippyRN (Jan 10, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> its the electorate who give them the biggest bashing which is why they haven't won  an election in over 20 years


 never mind the fact that the current  electoral boundaries   intrinsically favour Labour, hence the reason they are  uninterested in improving the  democratic process ... 

in terms of the 'popular' vote the conservatives   recived more votes in the 2005 GE 

the single largest party in the 2005 is the Conservative party ... 


remind me how far short of  majority labour were in 2005  ...


----------



## zippyRN (Jan 10, 2015)

Roadkill said:


> You wouldn't know truth if it jumped up and punched you in the face.  If you don't like it here, feel free to fuck off.  You wouldn't be missed.



 somewhat ironic  coming fdrom an Urban poster ...   where the truth is a very nebulous concept for many of them


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Jan 10, 2015)

8ball said:


> Yes, yes, but did it lose money for the investors?



Doesn't matter, the public will cover any losses and make sure they take home a fat profit.

That's all part of being a successful investor.

Knowing which corrupt tory cunts to bribe etc. (Helps if you went to Eton with them obviously)


----------



## Roadkill (Jan 10, 2015)

zippyRN said:


> somewhat ironic  coming fdrom an Urban poster ...



Says he, posting that on, er, Urban!


----------



## Blagsta (Jan 10, 2015)

zippyRN said:


> never mind the fact that the current  electoral boundaries   intrinsically favour Labour, hence the reason they are  uninterested in improving the  democratic process ...
> 
> in terms of the 'popular' vote the conservatives   recived more votes in the 2005 GE
> 
> ...



I suggest you look at that again.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 10, 2015)

its great telling conservatives how short their party has fallen for nearly a generation. They make shit up and splutter about labour like you are a labour fanboi


----------



## MrSki (Jan 10, 2015)

zippyRN said:


> relevance to the Hinchingbrooke deal  = fuck all  given the deal was  set up in 2008/9 ...
> 
> but as this is Urban  never let the truth  get in the way of bashing the Conservative party ...


Where did I say it was relevant to the Hinchingbrooke deal?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 11, 2015)

zippyRN said:


> never mind the fact that the current  electoral boundaries   intrinsically favour Labour, hence the reason they are  uninterested in improving the  democratic process ...



That'll be the electoral boundaries that the Conservatives had the legislative opportunity to change, but didn't?



> in terms of the 'popular' vote the conservatives   recived more votes in the 2005 GE
> 
> the single largest party in the 2005 is the Conservative party ...
> 
> ...



The current electoral system, the one we've had for hundreds of years with a nip here, and a tuck there, isn't based on how many votes a party receives overall, so mithering about that (as both left *and* right do) is immaterial. What matters is how many seats are won by which parties.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 11, 2015)

zippyRN said:


> somewhat ironic  coming fdrom an Urban poster ...   where the truth is a very nebulous concept for many of them



Yes, so many people have little connection to or idea of "the truth", but brave Zippy, he knows all about it!
You're pathological.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 11, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> its great telling conservatives how short their party has fallen for nearly a generation. They make shit up and splutter about labour like you are a labour fanboi



Yep. That's always especially hilarious - the assumption that if you don't agree with their political prescriptions you're a Labour supporter, or (even worse!) a "socialist".


----------



## DownwardDog (Jan 11, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> its great telling conservatives how short their party has fallen for nearly a generation. They make shit up and splutter about labour like you are a labour fanboi



We get our policies no matter who wins the elections though. That's why we are the greatest political party that ever was or will be.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 11, 2015)

DownwardDog said:


> We get our policies no matter who wins the elections though. That's why we are the greatest political party that ever was or will be.


your sitting on a demographic time bomb though, quite similar to one that fucked you a few generations ago.


----------



## 8ball (Jan 11, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> your sitting on a demographic time bomb though, quite similar to one that fucked you a few generations ago.



Hmm, yeah, demographics - let's see how well that one goes...


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 12, 2015)

zippyRN said:


> remind me how far short of  majority labour were in 2005  ...



They were -66 seats short of a majority, or to put it another way they had a majority of 66.


----------



## brogdale (Jan 19, 2015)

Ashcroft polls over 20k people about the NHS, and finds unsurprising bad news for the vermin. 



> ...*fewer than three in ten voters think they (tories) have the best approach to the NHS*, eighteen points behind Labour...Some blame the Lansley reforms for this state of affairs. I found *people assumed they had been introduced to save money; more thought they were “part of a plan to privatise the NHS” *than to cut bureaucracy or give more choice and control to patients....in the absence of any clear explanation of how the changes were supposed to benefit patients, *people fell back on their assumptions about Tory motivations. This is because the decontamination of the Conservative brand was never completed*....Though people were more likely than not to think spending on the NHS had risen in the last five years, *they were much more likely than not to think the service had deteriorated*.


----------



## teqniq (Jan 19, 2015)

'decontamination of the Conservative brand' Lol. how exactly is that to be achieved when so many of them have vested interests in contractors hoping to benefit from privatisation of services? Call in Rentokill.


----------



## treelover (Jan 27, 2015)

> Labour's Health Team@*LabourHealth* Follow
> 
> .@*andyburnhammp* went on @*BBCr4today* to talk about Labour's 10-year plan for health and care. They didn't ask a single question about it.
> 
> 9:09 AM - 27 Jan 2015



Andy Burnham, who seems to be the only shadow front bencher doing any real progressive innovative thinking has produced a 6000 word document on the future of the NHS, the BBC ignored it completely on R4 earlier.


----------



## zippyRN (Feb 7, 2015)

treelover said:


> Andy Burnham, who seems to be the only shadow front bencher doing any real progressive innovative thinking has produced a 6000 word document on the future of the NHS, the BBC ignored it completely on R4 earlier.



 Burnham  ; 'progressive and innovative ' thinking ...	you obviously have a very very short  memory


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 7, 2015)

teqniq said:


> 'decontamination of the Conservative brand' Lol. how exactly is that to be achieved when so many of them have vested interests in contractors hoping to benefit from privatisation of services? Call in Rentokill.


it worked for long enough to get them sort of elected via a coalition. Think the shine off of that shit has long faded though


----------



## ska invita (Feb 10, 2015)

> The only NHS hospital run by a private company has asked for a £10m taxpayer-funded bailout.
> Hinchingbrooke Hospital in Huntingdon, Cambridgeshire, is due to be handed back into NHS hands in March after the company outsourced to manage it, Circle, said it could no longer cope with rising demand and funding cuts.
> http://www.independent.co.uk/life-s...-for-10m-taxpayerfunded-bailout-10037083.html


 

if this is really seen as a test case then theres at least some good news to be taken from this

obviously: how can stretched public services ever make a profit and pass service reviews? impossible


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Feb 10, 2015)

> However, the hospital trust’s latest financial statement reveals Circle is expecting to leave behind a deficit of between £7.7m and £12m.
> 
> Under its contract, the company is only liable to pay £5m to cover deficits incurred at the trust, and has already paid £4.8m.


And it will get handed back to a private company ASAP.


----------



## J Ed (Feb 11, 2015)

ska invita said:


> if this is really seen as a test case then theres at least some good news to be taken from this
> 
> obviously: how can stretched public services ever make a profit and pass service reviews? impossible



It's obviously just the wrong kind of privatisation/there was too much state involvement and that was what contaminated an otherwise foolproof plan ad infinitum


----------



## ska invita (Feb 11, 2015)

J Ed said:


> It's obviously just the wrong kind of privatisation/there was too much state involvement and that was what contaminated an otherwise foolproof plan ad infinitum


i share everyones cynicism, but for the forseeable future there can be no way to provide a service that is monitored to meet standards and make a profit - the nhs is so squeezed for money already how can there ever be any surplus to extract? trains you can jack up the prices year on year on year - without medical insurance to foot the bill where would the profit come from?


----------



## teqniq (Jul 5, 2015)




----------



## butchersapron (Jul 5, 2015)

Unfortunately not real.


----------



## teqniq (Jul 5, 2015)

Oh well. Nice bit of photoshopery then


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 5, 2015)

teqniq said:


> Oh well. Nice bit of photoshopery then


I keep ruining your posts


----------



## teqniq (Jul 5, 2015)

Haha well I'd rather somebody pointed out it was fake.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 5, 2015)

teqniq said:


> Haha well I'd rather somebody pointed out it was fake.


I posted it on this thread at the end of last year asking if real - hoped it was, but afraid not. Got a lot of local attention though.


----------



## teqniq (Jul 5, 2015)

Oh, I had assumed it was recent as it was posted on FB by a friend who lives in Brizzle.


----------



## Libertad (Jul 5, 2015)

teqniq said:


> Oh, I had assumed it was recent as it was posted on FB by a friend who lives in Brizzle.



Is that near Bristol?


----------



## treelover (Oct 17, 2015)

News about #notfairnotsafe on Twitter

Another big demo by medics, junior doctors today.


----------



## Zabo (Oct 17, 2015)




----------



## Dogsauce (Oct 18, 2015)

I am getting more and more pissed off by the news reporting hospital trusts as being 'in deficit' rather than 'underfunded'. It's controlling language to achieve their aims and needs to be challenged.


----------



## magneze (Oct 18, 2015)

Exactly, a publicly funded hospital is meant to be in deficit. That's the point.


----------



## teqniq (Oct 20, 2015)

You will not believe who just hired disgraced former Health Secretary Andrew Lansley


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 21, 2015)

shameless cunt.


----------



## Dan U (Oct 21, 2015)

Dogsauce said:


> I am getting more and more pissed off by the news reporting hospital trusts as being 'in deficit' rather than 'underfunded'. It's controlling language to achieve their aims and needs to be challenged.


Not sure I totally agree with that tbh. 

Throwing money at the NHS can be counter productive 

Two examples 

Should we keep giving money to trusts to subsidise expensive agency workers and the profits of agencies, or should we try and change the behaviour of the sector and put money in to workforce development instead so we don't need to use expensive agency staff. In nursing in particular this is a wider issue in social care as well, we just don't have enough nurses. 

Everytime the govt gives a winter crisis payment to the NHS to clear beds, council Directors of Social Care cry as the NHS just moves people out in an unplanned way to the nearest willing provider. They invariably pay over the odds as they are temporarily flush with cash and have to meet short term targets that come with that cash. Very quickly afterwards that person is paid for by local govt at inflated rates and they get no additional funding from health. 

We'd be better off solving some of these systemic issues which makes parts of the system dysfunctional than just ponying up the money every time. 

If we don't we just make the case easier for the right wing lunatics who hate the thing and want it shut down

Eta - just to add I agree with you about   their aims.


----------



## teqniq (Jan 22, 2016)

Healthcare giant makes fortune from NHS but pays hardly a penny in tax


----------



## stethoscope (Feb 22, 2016)

Anybody know much more about this? I'm a bit wary of RT at the best of times.

Tories to sell off NHS recruitment agency - EXCLUSIVE



			
				RT said:
			
		

> Britain’s Department of Health (DH) is going ahead with plans to sell the National Health Service’s (NHS) in-house recruitment agency, NHS Professionals (NHSP), sources close to the deal have told RT.
> 
> Rumors of privatization have hounded NHSP for years, but two sources have finally confirmed to Going Underground’s Olga Masalkova that the government is ready to unload the agency, which serves as the main provider of temporary medical staff to NHS trusts across the country.
> 
> ...



However, I found this piece from two years ago that suggests even then it was on the cards.


----------



## Greasy Boiler (Feb 23, 2016)

The idea's been under review for over a year know. I'm no fan of RT either, but there's certainly nothing unbelievable about it.


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 3, 2016)

All and any signatures of support and letters/emails to MPs are greatly appreciated.

SUPPORT THE NHS REINSTATEMENT BILL TO BRING BACK OUR NHS | Campaigns by You


----------



## teqniq (Mar 11, 2016)

Brighton Demonstration to Send off Caroline Lucas MP – the Proposer of NHS Reinstatement Bill


----------



## chainsawjob (Mar 12, 2016)

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/nhs-reinstatement-bill-tory-mps-filibuster-debate-by-talking-about-deporting-foreigners-for-hours-a6925781.html%3famp#

So it didn't get debated, what happens now?


----------



## Libertad (Mar 12, 2016)

chainsawjob said:


> www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/nhs-reinstatement-bill-tory-mps-filibuster-debate-by-talking-about-deporting-foreigners-for-hours-a6925781.html%3famp#
> 
> So it didn't get debated, what happens now?





> Tory MPs who spoke at length on the deportation bill included Philip Hollobone, Sir Edward Leigh, Philip Davies, David Nuttal.



Vermin cunts. Parliamentary procedure is is in the purview of the Speaker of the House.


----------



## teqniq (Mar 12, 2016)

I really feel it is long past lamp-post and rope time.


----------



## Libertad (Mar 12, 2016)

teqniq said:


> I really feel it is long past lamp-post and rope time.



Yep, I'm becoming increasingly stabby.


----------



## chainsawjob (Mar 16, 2016)

Petition to Leader of the House to stop the practice of filibustering, following what happened with the NHS bill Stop Filibustering in The House Of Commons | Campaigns by You


----------



## chainsawjob (Mar 19, 2016)

Petition: Call an emergency parliament session to properly discuss NHS Reinstatement Bill.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Mar 19, 2016)

chainsawjob said:


> Petition to Leader of the House to stop the practice of filibustering, following what happened with the NHS bill Stop Filibustering in The House Of Commons | Campaigns by You



If the number of signatures on a 38degrees petition reaches 100,000, do parliament have to debate the issue? If not, why the fuck did the person setting this up not use the official government petition website? They've basically wasted all those peoples' signatures.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Mar 20, 2016)

chainsawjob said:


> Petition to Leader of the House to stop the practice of filibustering, following what happened with the NHS bill Stop Filibustering in The House Of Commons | Campaigns by You



The petition will have the same effect as marching, very little. Even if there is a change of government next time round, nothing will change.

Welcome to the new reality, whether you like it or not.

The NHS is unsustainable in its present form, and should have been reformed decades ago. The German model works well, and should certainly be considered. The NHS is capable of absorbing the entire GDP, If you let it.

Rather than bleating on here, the young amongst us should be looking at the best health insurance they can afford. For those amongst us who are old, we are fucked, pretty much. With my medical history, age and income, health insurance is not an option for me, I'm stuck with the more than slightly inadequate NHS.

The NHS in its present form is finished. Too many obese people and too many old people with dementia and chronic illness hasn't helped, and that situation will get worse.

I appreciate that the NHS is cherished, but it needs to change. Personally, I don't care who provides the services, as long as they are good.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Mar 20, 2016)

cynicaleconomy said:


> If the number of signatures on a 38degrees petition reaches 100,000, do parliament have to debate the issue? If not, why the fuck did the person setting this up not use the official government petition website? They've basically wasted all those peoples' signatures.



Danny, you speak as if it matters. It doesn't. Even if it is debated in parliament, what will change? Both major parties support what is happening. 

Better perhaps for unions to start and negotiate health insurance plans for their members.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Mar 20, 2016)

Haven't got time or energy for this shit. Just get to fuck Sasaferrato.


----------



## magneze (Mar 20, 2016)

Sasaferrato said:


> The petition will have the same effect as marching, very little. Even if there is a change of government next time round, nothing will change.
> 
> Welcome to the new reality, whether you like it or not.
> 
> ...


Garbage.


----------



## chainsawjob (Mar 20, 2016)

cynicaleconomy said:


> If the number of signatures on a 38degrees petition reaches 100,000, do parliament have to debate the issue? If not, why the fuck did the person setting this up not use the official government petition website? They've basically wasted all those peoples' signatures.


Good question, and I have to admit I wasn't totally clear on this myself.  The short answer is no, but 38Degrees spokespeople give a reasonable case for them still being valuable in this article MPs' new petitions group won't accept campaigns from hugely popular websites



> Maddy Carroll, campaigns director at 38 Degrees, added: "We already know when politicians listen to ordinary people, they do a better job - but we can't rely on a government-sponsored petition site to make that happen.
> 
> "Most winning campaigns have succeeded because they've taken people-powered pressure to decision makers, not because they've triggered a government debate."
> 
> ...



I'm as sceptical about the power of petitions as the next person, there are so many of them now, clicktivism and all that, but there have been some successes, so I still sign some of them, or at least I go through peaks and troughs of being hopeful about them making a difference. Some are worded pretty poorly I have to say, or don't really have a clear enough objective.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Mar 20, 2016)

magneze said:


> Garbage.



You are a fantasist. You cannot seperate what you want, from what you will get.

The NHS is so far from its original ethos that it will never go back. Why do you find this so hard to comprehend?

The Urban bubble is a strange place, absolutely certain that collectively, your view is right, with little time for dissent, and liberal amounts of abuse for those who do.

Anyone who feels that the NHS as it stands, is fit for purpose is addled. It isn't, and is going to get worse.

There are a number of reasons why the NHS is in its current state. Serial major re-jigs by succesive governments is a major part, if not the primary cause of today's situation. Every major change has cost a lot of money, and achieved nothing.

There is a relatively simple reason why the NHS is dying, increasing demand which has not been met by the necessary increased budget. You can do more with less, to a point. We are well beyond that point.

People are living longer, with the associated health problems. Obesity and dementia are putting an increased strain on the service, so are hip replacements, knee replacements etc. Beds are blocked by patients who are able to be discharged, but not able to return home without help. The help is not there because it hasn't been funded.

New and very expensive cancer treatments come along. A very thorny issue. Is it worth spending £30k to give someone a few extra months of life? Should a breast cancer drug be used that is twice the cost of existing treatments, but gives only a 5% extra chance of remission compared to existing treatments?

Unpalatable as it may be, the NHS as we knew it is gone. Being unwilling to accept that will not change anything.

I am a pragmatist, when I see that something is no longer viable, or shortly won't be, then I look at how I can move forward from there. In the case of the NHS, the way forward is a complete change, we can either spend the necessary funds and restore it to its original condition, or, we can move to an entirely different system. The German model works well. It costs you more than the NHS does (personally), but the service level is amazing. I had a friend in Rinteln who required a hip replacement. It wasn't a situation of going on the waiting list, it was 'When is it convenient for you?'. He saw his GP on the Monday, had the operation the following Wednesday. Post operatively, he went to a rehab centre for three weeks, to get everything moving again. We went to visist him at the rehab centre, it had a beer shop in the foyer.

You can weep and moan and gnash your teeth, you can sign petitions, you can even march. You will achieve nothing. The NHS is such a money pit that both major parties are desperate to try and bring spending under control. They will do anything, pretty much, to achieve this. If this means 'privitisation' of parts or all of the NHS, that is what *will* happen, whether you like it or not.

Personally, I would rather see the NHS go back to where it was when I was a student nurse in 1970. It was a clinician led service, not a beancounter led service. There is certainly money to be saved in the current NHS by doing away with the vast majority of the bean counters. I am completely unfussed about who provides medical care, provided it is of a high standard, and the T&Cs of the staff are not eroded. Why does it matter so much that physio services, say, are provided by 'Virgin Health' rather than the NHS? We can continue with the current failing model, or we can be pragmatic and look at how the health budget can be best spent.

I genuinely feel for the coming generations, their health care is going to cost them much more than ours cost us.

My view of the future is an honest one, I'm not trying to wind anyone up. I have a vested interest in the NHS continuing, I cannot afford private health insurance, I even find it difficult to get travel insurance at all, never mind cheaply. I do recognise however, that despite my wish for the NHS to continue in its classic form, things have changed so much already that there is no going back, much as you would like it to.


----------



## magneze (Mar 20, 2016)

Sasaferrato said:


> You are a fantasist. You cannot seperate what you want, from what you will get.
> 
> The NHS is so far from its original ethos that it will never go back. Why do you find this so hard to comprehend?
> 
> ...


TL;DR, but comprehensive reply to a one word post.


----------



## magneze (Mar 20, 2016)

Sasaferrato said:


> You are a fantasist. You cannot seperate what you want, from what you will get.
> 
> The NHS is so far from its original ethos that it will never go back. Why do you find this so hard to comprehend?
> 
> ...


Fuck it, I'll bite. What makes you think a private health service will be less expensive?


----------



## Sasaferrato (Mar 20, 2016)

magneze said:


> Fuck it, I'll bite. What makes you think a private health service will be less expensive?



I don't. For you as an individual, if we used the German model, it would be more expensive.

What it does do (German model) is make health care contractual. If you need treatment, you get treatment.

I've said a number of times that I would be happy to pay 1% extra (or 2%) on my income tax, with the money hypothecated to health care.

Sorry if I keep harping back to money, but it is at the root of the whole thing. What a 'privatised' system does do is give the patient much more of a say. In Germany, there are a number of companies that provide the funding (sick banks in the vernacular, you pay in to them, they pay for the treatment), so there is competition, which keeps costs down.

If we want health care, we have to pay for it. Either we increase the funding of the NHS (and stop fucking it about every five years), or, we set up a 'privatised' system. 

When you look at the last six months figures for A&E waits, it is depressing, and we didn't have a really hard Winter. It is cloud cuckoo land to expect the NHS to go on as it is, with the funding allocated. I must admit, when the Coalition announced the 'efficiency savings' that were proposed, I rather naively thought that it should be manageable. It perhaps would have been, had there not been further slices taken off here and there.

IDS resigning, and the concurrent infighting within the government makes it likely that the absolutely unwarranted and downright nasty cuts to PIP will not go ahead. That at least is a small ray of hope.

Going out, back later.


----------



## magneze (Mar 20, 2016)

Sasaferrato said:


> Either we increase the funding of the NHS (and stop fucking it about every five years), or, we set up a 'privatised' system.


I'll have to take your first answer there.


----------



## 8ball (Mar 20, 2016)

Sasaferrato said:


> If we want health care, we have to pay for it. Either we increase the funding of the NHS (and stop fucking it about every five years), or, we set up a 'privatised' system.



So it's a choice between EU average funding to get back on track, and not fucking with it, or spending twice as much for a service delivering shit outcomes, as with the US system?

I can see why you're behind the latter, on balance.


----------



## purenarcotic (Mar 20, 2016)

What stops us from increasing the funding? If the richest were made to pay their tax properly we would see lots more available cash for the NHS. What would those unemployed or low incomes do if they cannot afford insurance?


----------



## 8ball (Mar 20, 2016)

purenarcotic said:


> What stops us from increasing the funding? If the richest were made to pay their tax properly we would see lots more available cash for the NHS. What would those unemployed or low incomes do if they cannot afford insurance?



It's not about infinite increases to funding as Sass would have us believe while he parrots dogma from Tory Central.

Any system can be improved, and too much reverence towards the NHS can lead to failures in looking at points where it can be weak, but while the wreckers are in town it's good to keep in mind that in terms of lives per pound saved, the NHS is a world leader (Ireland pips the UK at the post on that measure).

Something for Sass to ponder on:

_Comparing the USA, UK and 17 Western countries' efficiency and effectiveness in reducing mortality_


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Mar 20, 2016)

One problem is of course that decades of deliberate destruction of the infrastructure, through "reforms" and just simple chronic underfunding, are really biting to the extent that it is increasingly hard (and expensive) to fix them now. Prevention always being better than cure, and other ironic medical metaphors.


----------



## 8ball (Mar 20, 2016)

FridgeMagnet said:


> One problem is of course that decades of deliberate destruction of the infrastructure, through "reforms" and just simple chronic underfunding, are really biting to the extent that it is increasingly hard (and expensive) to fix them now. Prevention always being better than cure, and other ironic medical metaphors.



And yet it still performs right at the top of the league.  You need to invest in infrastructure continually, and the value of past expenditure necessarily degrades over time.  Which is a bummer in once sense but at least it means you don't need to spend everything you missed spending on in the past to get back on track.

Plus, the other solutions, including privatisation, are more expensive.

The real reason for the push to destroy it is the offence Tories take at the poor having access to quality healthcare.  They'll happily double or triple expenditure if they can stop that from happening.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Mar 20, 2016)

8ball said:


> And yet it still performs right at the top of the league.  You need to invest in infrastructure continually, and the value of past expenditure necessarily degrades over time.  Which is a bummer in once sense but at least it means you don't need to spend everything you missed spending on in the past to get back on track.
> 
> Plus, the other solutions, including privatisation, are more expensive.
> 
> The real reason for the push to destroy it is the offence Tories take at the poor having access to quality healthcare.  They'll happily double or triple expenditure if they can stop that from happening.


Oh sure, it would still be a better idea to fix it than not—in fact even if the NHS completely disintegrated it would still be a better idea to rebuild it from scratch than not—but every year gives the apologists more ammunition to say "well it would cost far too much to fix things now let's go for <insert privatised model X>".

I think we have also gone past the stage of "NHS still operating fully despite cuts". Outside of my personal observations, people I know working in hospitals have described primary care as being almost completely broken now for instance, and the lack of new doctors getting critical.


----------



## teqniq (Mar 20, 2016)

George Osborne cut £1.1bn from the NHS budget without anyone noticing:


----------



## Sasaferrato (Mar 20, 2016)

purenarcotic said:


> What stops us from increasing the funding? If the richest were made to pay their tax properly we would see lots more available cash for the NHS. What would those unemployed or low incomes do if they cannot afford insurance?



Indeed.

The unemployed and those on low incomes are looked after, the amount paid is dependant on earnings.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Mar 20, 2016)

teqniq said:


> George Osborne cut £1.1bn from the NHS budget without anyone noticing:



And as we all realise, you cannot keep doing that and expect the institution to survive.

I would not be at all surprised if this degradation of the NHS is deliberate. Knock it on to its knees, then cite that as the reason why 'privatisation' is the only solution.

Osborne is scum, and worse still, scum with an eye on the top job.

I have no wish to see the NHS die, but it is a lamentable state at the moment, and I don't see the necessary funding coming.

The NHS cannot survive on its present course, and although Labour are making disapproving noises about the current funding, there is no hard commitment to increase it.


----------



## teqniq (Mar 20, 2016)

Sasaferrato said:


> I would not be at all surprised if this degradation of the NHS is deliberate. Knock it on to its knees, then cite that as the reason why 'privatisation' is the only solution.
> 
> Osborne is scum, and worse still, scum with an eye on the top job.


No shit Sherlock.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Mar 20, 2016)

8ball said:


> It's not about infinite increases to funding as Sass would have us believe while he parrots dogma from Tory Central.
> 
> Any system can be improved, and too much reverence towards the NHS can lead to failures in looking at points where it can be weak, but while the wreckers are in town it's good to keep in mind that in terms of lives per pound saved, the NHS is a world leader (Ireland pips the UK at the post on that measure).
> 
> ...



Interesting read, however, it is historical. That time has passed.

It is the future that concerns me, the data in that article is ten years old, I wonder what the figures would like if the survey was done today?

The US health care system is not something to emulate, the German system probably is. 

I have seen this slow car crash coming for twenty years, twenty years ago I was selling medical equipment to the NHS, or rather I wasn't, because even then money was tight.

It is difficult to see what we can do. Changing government is no guarantee of proper funding.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Mar 20, 2016)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Oh sure, it would still be a better idea to fix it than not—in fact even if the NHS completely disintegrated it would still be a better idea to rebuild it from scratch than not—but every year gives the apologists more ammunition to say "well it would cost far too much to fix things now let's go for <insert privatised model X>".
> 
> I think we have also gone past the stage of "NHS still operating fully despite cuts". Outside of my personal observations, people I know working in hospitals have described primary care as being almost completely broken now for instance, and the lack of new doctors getting critical.



Quite. We need a health care system, and I'm in absolute agreement that fixing the NHS is the best option. I'm also in absolute agreement regarding the critical state of the NHS at present. I waited for six hellish months for 'urgent' nerve conduction tests, to see whether I had MND or not. Thank God, it was not, however, I have severe (probably inoperable) narrowing of the spinal canal in the neck and lower back, which is what was causing (and still is) the symptoms. It is probably inoperable because of previous surgery at both sites, the scar tissue makes a CSF leak post operatively more likely, and that can be fatal. What the future holds, who knows, but it isn't rosy.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Mar 20, 2016)

Sasaferrato said:


> Indeed.
> 
> The unemployed and those on low incomes are looked after, the amount paid is dependant on earnings.



The means-testing model has never worked. We've had almost 200 years of trying it in various forms from the advent of the poor laws until now. The reason is that if you set up a distinction between those 'on welfare' and those not, a self-destruction mechanism is right away built into the system that sees the well-off use their political power to deprive others of access to those services. The only system that is sustainable politically as well as economically is a universal one based on medical need and funded via progressive taxation.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 20, 2016)

Sasaferrato said:


> The petition will have the same effect as marching, very little. Even if there is a change of government next time round, nothing will change.
> 
> Welcome to the new reality, whether you like it or not.
> 
> The NHS is unsustainable in its present form, and should have been reformed decades ago. The German model works well, and should certainly be considered. The NHS is capable of absorbing the entire GDP, If you let it.



The German system *functions* well, but it's uneconomical compared to the NHS, and lag times for "popular" specialisms are long compared to the NHS.



> Rather than bleating on here, the young amongst us should be looking at the best health insurance they can afford. For those amongst us who are old, we are fucked, pretty much. With my medical history, age and income, health insurance is not an option for me, I'm stuck with the more than slightly inadequate NHS.



Maybe hospital staff avoid giving you good service, because you're such a crabbit old scrote?
In the last 6 months I've had 6 procedures on my GI tract and bowel, as well as general outpatient stuff like x-rays, bloods and physio. The only complaint I can level at my treatment, is that appointment times sometimes slipped. Apart from that, the service was excellent.	



> The NHS in its present form is finished. Too many obese people and too many old people with dementia and chronic illness hasn't helped, and that situation will get worse.



Dementia care has *always* been shit. it's a question of resource allocation. People with dementia don't tend to vote, so...
As for obesity, we both know it's solvable through education and legislation, but the ruling classes don't give a fuck for povs.



> I appreciate that the NHS is cherished, but it needs to change. Personally, I don't care who provides the services, as long as they are good.



And there's the rub! No cunt who supports marketisation ever stops to think that invariably private-sector provision is *worse*, both because of the profit motive - and how profits are realised - and because the people at the top of the provider pyramid have no vocation beyond bean-counting.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Mar 22, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> The German system *functions* well, but it's uneconomical compared to the NHS, and lag times for "popular" specialisms are long compared to the NHS.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I made no complaint whatsoever about the quality of NHS treatment.

What I did do, and still do, is query whether the NHS as we know it can survive. My considered opinion is that it cannot.

It would suit the government (of any stripe) well, to divorce health care from the state. It would then be up to the customer to seek the best care they can afford, with a fairly basic system funded from the benefits system.

Both main parties swear undying loyalty to the NHS, but are not prepared to fund it properly. As I've said before; and I have no more love of income tax than anyone else; I would pay an extra 1 or 2% on my income tax, with the money hypothecated for health care.

Being pragmatic, were I twenty again, I would be looking for the best private health care I could afford, because the younger you join most schemes, the better the lifetime premiums.

I don't want the NHS to die, but it is dying by degrees, and unless it is properly funded, it will not continue in its present form. I've watched the NHS for half a century, and it is slowly sinking.

Indeed in some areas it has effectively sunk. I listened to father describe how the London based family were travelling to the Midlands, to visit their child, because there was not a single junior psychiatric bed any closer.

Interesting, in the light of the junior doctors strike, that you mention vocation. That horse has bolted I fear.


----------



## 8ball (Mar 22, 2016)

Sasaferrato said:


> <snip>



Still trying to justify more expensive "solutions".

Though it's helpful that you mark yourself down as a cunt at the end - gives the post more context.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Mar 23, 2016)

8ball said:


> Still trying to justify more expensive "solutions".
> 
> Though it's helpful that you mark yourself down as a cunt at the end - gives the post more context.



Go and fuck yourself, you revolting piece of dog shit.

If you object to the above, then don't indulge in gratuitous abuse, wanker.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Mar 24, 2016)

Can you respond to my post here please, Sasaferrato?


----------



## teqniq (Jan 11, 2017)

*bump*

I'm reasonably certain that most people must be aware by now of recent reports that the NHS is close to collapse and that the British Red Cross has intervened to assist in the transportation of patients, government protestations to the contrary and the recent unavailability of the worm that is Jeremy Hunt for comment on the situation - he now faces a potential grilling in the HOC about this today

this has also come to light:


----------



## Sasaferrato (Jan 11, 2017)

ViolentPanda said:


> The German system *functions* well, but it's uneconomical compared to the NHS, and lag times for "popular" specialisms are long compared to the NHS.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Let me make my view crystal clear. As long as the service provided is good, I really don't give a damn who provides it. I would prefer it to be the NHS, as it is an established and known system. 

A major problem that the NHS has is the number of clingons it supports. A stripping out of the useless eaters would free up a lot of money. Our local hospital has 37 admin staff, that is people who provide nothing for the patient.

So many things that could be done. Central purchasing for the whole NHS for example; a recent BBC (IIRC) investigation found that some hospitals were paying twice that of another, for surgical gloves. Scrap the GP commissioning idiocy, fund the hospital against its demographic, and let the GPs refer their patients. Every penny spent on admin (and I'm not talking about people like medical secretaries and patient records clerks) is potentially a wasted penny. A flat management structure in nursing, remove the promoted posts, which take the best out of the wards, and increase pay in line with experience instead, thereby retaining the highly experienced people at the sharp end.

I could go on, but I think you understand where I'm coming from. There is a hell of a lot of money being siphoned off for no real purpose, money that could going to patient care.

Oh, and crucify Hunt, who is a liar and an incompetent.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Jan 11, 2017)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> The means-testing model has never worked. We've had almost 200 years of trying it in various forms from the advent of the poor laws until now. The reason is that if you set up a distinction between those 'on welfare' and those not, a self-destruction mechanism is right away built into the system that sees the well-off use their political power to deprive others of access to those services. The only system that is sustainable politically as well as economically is a universal one based on medical need and funded via progressive taxation.



It is not means testing. It is a system that gives medical care to all, at the time they need it. If the person is employed, the 'sick bank', which collects their contributions, pays. If they are unemployed, the government pays, but every one is treated in the same manner.

I should add, I don't know the current state of German health care, I haven't been in Germany for a year or so. I'll be there in May, and, as always, will ask how things are going.


----------



## Old Spark (Jan 11, 2017)

The idea of an organisation which spends £120billion plus being "close to collapse" is alarming until you realise ,with a rising and aging population and massive council cuts restricting social care ,it always will be.

So play chancellor -think the unthinkable,what needs to be done?

1.reduce demand-the only permanent way to do that are is by getting us to live more healthily-standing up to the food and drinks lobby would be a significant start(minimum price etc). Exercise in public places (compulsory for the obese) like the japs .Ban smoking anywhere.End cheap supermarket booze -make everyone walk to the pub.Meditate every day.Always run for the bus.Play sport.

2.Increase supply -more gps and doctors ,nurses -but without stealing them from their country of origin.If anything encourage foreign doctors to go back homewhere they may be needed more.

3.Deliver Leave promise on extra £350million a week for the nhs,prosecute more rich people found guilty of tax evasion .Tax wealth and  international corporate capitalism.

4.Install sky sports ,al jazeera,pbs into all nursing homes-I am not going if I have to watch daytime tv.Respect the elderly and encourage families to look after their own by public subsidy.

5.Live for today in a non judgemental way -dont regret the past ,dont fear the future.

6.Try to give up prescription drugs(see exercise and meditation etc ).

7.Go veggie.

8..Er thats it.


----------



## alex_ (Jan 11, 2017)

Sasaferrato said:


> A major problem that the NHS has is the number of clingons it supports. A stripping out of the useless eaters would free up a lot of money. Our local hospital has 37 admin staff, that is people who provide nothing for the patient.



Presumably you think consultants should be rebooking appointments, dealing with hr issues and phoning the plumber when the toilet is broken ?

Alex


----------



## Libertad (Jan 11, 2017)

Old Spark said:


> 6.Try to give up prescription drugs(see exercise and meditation etc ).



I don't think you've thought this through.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jan 11, 2017)

Sasaferrato said:


> As long as the service provided is good, I really don't give a damn who provides it. .


you should


----------



## Plumdaff (Jan 11, 2017)

Sasaferrato said:


> A major problem that the NHS has is the number of clingons it supports. A stripping out of the useless eaters would free up a lot of money. Our local hospital has 37 admin staff, that is people who provide nothing for the patient.



If you genuinely believe admin staff do nothing for the patient you have nothing of use to say about how to run a health service. FFS.  I was involved in turning round a service from being the worst to best performing service nationally in our field and we didn't really do anything that clinically different; mostly we changed our administration - including having *more* admin staff - which allowed us to clear waiting lists and work quickly and effectively. Clueless.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jan 11, 2017)

Sasaferrato said:


> stripping out of the useless eaters would free up a lot of money.


I sincerely hope you have no idea what the term 'useless eaters' means and were just using it blindly, in the way a utilitarian with no sense of history or even decency would


----------



## agricola (Jan 12, 2017)

Old Spark said:


> The idea of an organisation which spends £120billion plus being "close to collapse" is alarming until you realise ,with a rising and aging population and massive council cuts restricting social care ,it always will be.
> 
> So play chancellor -think the unthinkable,what needs to be done?
> 
> ...



All PFI deals should be nationalized, the internal market and its associated structures should be disposed of, recruitment should be encouraged (by bursaries and whatnot, to the extent that we end up with an oversupply of doctors, paramedics and nursing staff) and streamlined (especially a return to vocational training for nurses, rather than a focus on them having degrees) and taken back in-house, more provision should be made at major hospitals for people who walk in off the street and who are not emergencies (and take pressure off A&E departments), and it should be a requirement that all Trusts should have reserve capacity in terms of beds and staff (in the order of at _least_ 20% over normal operating levels) to cope with emergencies.  I'd also like to see some system put in place whereby staff can safely raise concerns over working practices and standards and not be victimized for it.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 12, 2017)

Sasaferrato said:


> A major problem that the NHS has is the number of clingons it supports. A stripping out of the useless eaters would free up a lot of money. Our local hospital has 37 admin staff, that is people who provide nothing for the patient.


how do you know they provide nothing for the patient? would you prefer it if clinicians did the admin and spent less time with patients? who do you think deals with the bills and ordering pills, etc?


----------



## Libertad (Jan 12, 2017)

agricola said:


> All PFI deals should be nationalized



Without compensation.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Jan 12, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> how do you know they provide nothing for the patient? would you prefer it if clinicians did the admin and spent less time with patients? who do you think deals with the bills and ordering pills, etc?



Do the job properly, and there are few bills that need to be paid directly by the hospital. Ordering of drugs is job of the pharmacy btw, not by admin staff.

You seem to be defending the huge admin burden carried by the NHS, a goodly amount of which can be eliminated by going back to the process of hospitals being funded, and GPs referring their patients. The present system also generates a hell of a lot of admin for the GPs, many of whom are retiring or emigrating as a result. My own GP couldn't stand it any longer, and retired.

I have a distinct feeling that you have never been involved in the running of a hospital, I have. If the NHS were to adopt the military model, the savings would be immense. The benefits include:

Central purchasing and distribution of drugs, dressing, disposables and equipment.
A very flat management system.
Senior nurses at the sharp end, not in admin posts.
Single training facilities for all specialities, such as Radiographers, Lab Techs, Pharmacy techs Physiotherapists etc.
Clinical specialities run by the senior clinicians.
Centralised HR & pay.
Legal accountability at Ward Sister level. (This does exist in the NHS at present, but is never enforced.)

Standardisation of equipment across the whole estate brings large savings, both in terms of economies of scale in purchase, and in parts inventory for equipment maintenance.

When attending outpatient appointments in three different hospitals, I observed three different brands of disposable gloves, and two different brands of syringes. Each hospital is negotiating its own supply contract. Say they buy 500 boxes of gloves a year, then consider what discount can be obtained if you are buying 50,000 boxes, delivered to four or five locations. We could generally get 15 - 20% under Drug Tariff prices, because we were buying big quantities, delivered to a single point. The army was minute compared to NHS quantities, so further savings should be achieved.

The NHS is capable of absorbing the entire GDP if allowed to, however, it is crystal clear that more money is urgently needed to alleviate the current crisis. The underlying problem is not so easy to resolve, which is the number of beds lost over the last decade. New provision needs to be built. 

We also need an urgent increase in elderly care facilities, patients who are ready for discharge, but unable to manage in their own homes, and who have nowhere else to go are clogging the hospitals. Not their fault of course, but the fault of serial governments who have not made proper provision.

Where is the the money coming from? Well, scrapping Trident, scrapping HS2 and curtailing overseas aid would help. At a time when the NHS is dying on it's feet, does it really make sense to spend £12Bn in overseas aid? The government has a duty to look after the people of Britain first. The NHS is not the only problem area; potholed roads, unaffordable public transport, and a rail network which is unfit for role need to be addressed also. Cameron's largess of 0.7% of GDP on foreign aid is not sustainable.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Jan 12, 2017)

Libertad said:


> Without compensation.



Yes, the legacy of gormless Gordon, one of the most dishonest men ever to hold the post of Chancellor.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Jan 12, 2017)

Plumdaff said:


> If you genuinely believe admin staff do nothing for the patient you have nothing of use to say about how to run a health service. FFS.  I was involved in turning round a service from being the worst to best performing service nationally in our field and we didn't really do anything that clinically different; mostly we changed our administration - including having *more* admin staff - which allowed us to clear waiting lists and work quickly and effectively. Clueless.



I ran the Pharmacy and Med stores in 640 bed hospital, prior to that I did the same job in smaller hospitals. 

People such as medical secretaries and patient record clerks are essential staff, and they are the people who get your lists cleared.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 12, 2017)

Sasaferrato said:


> Do the job properly, and there are few bills that need to be paid directly by the hospital. Ordering of drugs is job of the pharmacy btw, not by admin staff.
> 
> You seem to be defending the huge admin burden carried by the NHS, a goodly amount of which can be eliminated by going back to the process of hospitals being funded, and GPs referring their patients. The present system also generates a hell of a lot of admin for the GPs, many of whom are retiring or emigrating as a result. My own GP couldn't stand it any longer, and retired.
> 
> ...


tbh 37 admin staff to help run the hospital doesn't strike me as too many, although it would depend where they were deployed. where i imagine the genuine savings might be made would be in shared payroll and hr. but from the 37 you mention a couple might be library staff - and having worked in a biomedical library i do know something of the need to librarians in the nhs. then there's the people who make sure the hospital is cleaned. the people who deal with logistics. porters. it people. receptionists. 37 not really all that many.


----------



## Plumdaff (Jan 12, 2017)

Sasaferrato said:


> I ran the Pharmacy and Med stores in 640 bed hospital, prior to that I did the same job in smaller hospitals.
> 
> People such as medical secretaries and patient record clerks are essential staff, and they are the people who get your lists cleared.



Otherwise known as Admin


----------



## Sasaferrato (Jan 12, 2017)

Plumdaff said:


> Otherwise known as Admin



There are none so blind, as those who will not see.

Supercilious git.


----------



## two sheds (Jan 12, 2017)

Plumdaff said:


> Otherwise known as Admin



as was sas


----------



## StoneRoad (Jan 12, 2017)

My OH has just spent a few days as an in-patient in a PFI hospital - treatment / tests related to infected gall-bladder.
What a shower ...
The building (opened in 2000) is badly designed, with a huge atrium and walkways. None of the bed spaces actually had the right amount of space for bed, chair and locker (apart from the side rooms)
The GP phoned to arrange admission, and we took OH rather that wait for ambulance. To save time. Waited in A&E for nearly 2 1/2 hours and it was only making a fuss that we got inside ... there were eight ambulances queued outside as all cubicles were in use !
Another 3 1/2 hours before actual admission was achieved, and then another three hours to get onto the ward (and even then it wasn't surgical, it was orthopaedics because the proper ward was shut because of Norovirus). Even pain relief had to be demanded, repeatedly.
Finally got an ultrasound scan but now will need an MRI as can't see inside the sludge ...

I must say that the overworked nursing staff were absolute stars, friendly and helpful - but dragged down by a couple of arrogant registrars who were gossiping at the nurses' station (if you must talk about football, do it where the patient's relative's can't see/hear you when you are supposed to be arranging for tests / treatment - and that incident was logged with PALS, btw) 

Oh, and the parking had to be paid for, with penalty charges frequently issued. A bottle of "squash" was 50p more than in an expensive supermarket (and was in a franchised outlet, no sign of a "friends" shop ...)


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## agricola (Jan 14, 2017)

It's all the fault of GPs, apparently.


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## Pickman's model (Jan 14, 2017)

agricola said:


> It's all the fault of GPs, apparently.


Yeh. Demand a seven day parliament. They'll soon give up on this nonsense if they see people want politicians to actually work.


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## Sasaferrato (Jan 14, 2017)

Listening to 'Any Answers' today, a number of people suggested a rise in income tax, hypothecated to health care.

Any views on that? I would certainly pay an extra 1 or 2% to improve health care. Another suggestion was a flat fee (irrespective of how many items) be imposed on pensioners, of whom there are currently over 11m. As a soon to be pensioner, a fee of £2 or so would be perfectly acceptable. Most of us wrinklies are on at least one long term medication, so £22m a month in new income.

You can discuss until you are blue in the face. The bottom line is that the NHS needs more money, a lot more. This can come from a reduction in spending elsewhere, such as the Overseas Aid budget, or from increased taxation. NHS costs have risen 4% per annum for the last couple of decades, the NHS budget has not.


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## gosub (Jan 14, 2017)

The 7 day a week GP was I presume a manifesto  commitment, that they are opportunistically reheating.
I remember at the hustings, our now MP, In response to the question "what can be done to prevent the large number of GP's quitting?" Put forward the idea of 7 day GP's.   

Was his first election, and was sticking to head office script. Think the questioner knew what that script was as well.  Made no difference he has one of the largest majorities in the house.


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## gosub (Jan 14, 2017)

Sasaferrato said:


> Listening to 'Any Answers' today, a number of people suggested a rise in income tax, hypothecated to health care.
> 
> Any views on that? I would certainly pay an extra 1 or 2% to improve health care. Another suggestion was a flat fee (irrespective of how many items) be imposed on pensioners, of whom there are currently over 11m. As a soon to be pensioner, a fee of £2 or so would be perfectly acceptable. Most of us wrinklies are on at least one long term medication, so £22m a month in new income.
> 
> You can discuss until you are blue in the face. The bottom line is that the NHS needs more money, a lot more. This can come from a reduction in spending elsewhere, such as the Overseas Aid budget, or from increased taxation. NHS costs have risen 4% per annum for the last couple of decades, the NHS budget has not.


Didn't we do that when NI went up?


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## Pickman's model (Jan 14, 2017)

gosub said:


> The 7 day a week GP was I presume a manifesto  commitment, that they are opportunistically reheating.
> I remember at the hustings, our now MP, In response to the question "what can be done to prevent the large number of GP's quitting?" Put forward the idea of 7 day GP's.
> 
> Was his first election, and was sticking to head office script. Think the questioner knew what that script was as well.  Made no difference he has one of the largest majorities in the house.


There aren't the drs available for this, it's a way of making the system collapse in preparation for privatisation at a higher pace


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## LDC (Jan 14, 2017)

Exactly.

"NHS can't provide 7 days a week care? Funnily enough we just so happen to know some companies that will step in and help us out of this terrible crisis."


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## agricola (Jan 14, 2017)

Sasaferrato said:


> Listening to 'Any Answers' today, a number of people suggested a rise in income tax, hypothecated to health care.
> 
> Any views on that? I would certainly pay an extra 1 or 2% to improve health care. Another suggestion was a flat fee (irrespective of how many items) be imposed on pensioners, of whom there are currently over 11m. As a soon to be pensioner, a fee of £2 or so would be perfectly acceptable. Most of us wrinklies are on at least one long term medication, so £22m a month in new income.
> 
> You can discuss until you are blue in the face. The bottom line is that the NHS needs more money, a lot more. This can come from a reduction in spending elsewhere, such as the Overseas Aid budget, or from increased taxation. NHS costs have risen 4% per annum for the last couple of decades, the NHS budget has not.



It is a good idea - though until the issues around PFI, the internal market and the rest are sorted out there really isn't any point in giving the NHS any extra money; it will just be swallowed up (and taken offshore) by those problems without delivering any kind of improvement.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Jan 14, 2017)

gosub said:


> Didn't we do that when NI went up?



Yes, there was a NI increase a while back. Don't know if that money was ring-fenced for the NHS though.


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## Sasaferrato (Jan 14, 2017)

agricola said:


> It is a good idea - though until the issues around PFI, the internal market and the rest are sorted out there really isn't any point in giving the NHS any extra money; it will just be swallowed up (and taken offshore) by those problems without delivering any kind of improvement.


 Yep. An all round clusterfuck.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 14, 2017)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Exactly.
> 
> "NHS can't provide 7 days a week care? Funnily enough we just so happen to know some companies that will step in and help us out of this terrible crisis."


this deliberate wrecking of a national service in order to make it seem palatable tto privatise is played out the same way every time. Those vultures. I'd like to start a 'human centipede' with Hunts mouth sewn to lansleys arse.


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## SpookyFrank (Jan 14, 2017)

Old Spark said:


> The idea of an organisation which spends £120billion plus being "close to collapse" is alarming until you realise ,with a rising and aging population and massive council cuts restricting social care ,it always will be.
> 
> So play chancellor -think the unthinkable,what needs to be done?
> 
> ...



Congratulations on crafting a post whose use of a racist epithet is not even its most unpleasant feature.


----------



## yield (Feb 17, 2017)

Health cuts most likely cause of major rise in mortality, study claims
Government rebuts verdict that NHS and social care cuts may have caused 30,000 excess deaths in England and Wales 2015
Friday 17 February 2017


> An unprecedented rise in mortality in England and Wales, where 30,000 excess deaths occurred in 2015, is likely to be linked to cuts to the NHS and social care, according to research which has drawn an angry response from the government.
> 
> The highly charged claim is made by researchers from the London School of Hygiene & Tropical Medicine, Oxford University and Blackburn with Darwen council, who say the increase in mortality took place against a backdrop of “severe cuts” to the NHS and social care, compromising their performance.





> After examination of NHS performance data for the period, which shows the service missing almost all its targets, they concluded: “The evidence points to a major failure of the health system, possibly exacerbated by failings in social care.”
> 
> The rise in deaths from 2014 to 529,655 in 2015 was the biggest in percentage terms in almost 50 years and the mortality rate was the highest since 2008. The excess deaths were largely among older people who are most dependent on health and social care, the authors said.


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## crossthebreeze (Feb 17, 2017)

Horrendous, but not suprising, and its just going to get worse. I hope this gets people angry.
I think this bit is important:
Harrison said the point the authors were making was that in months such as January 2015, which saw a spike in deaths, there was an insufficient service response to a surge in demand. He termed this a “fail event” and warned there could be recurrences over the next five years without a rise in funding. He added that preliminary figures pointed to a possible significant increase in excess deaths last month.​


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## Pickman's model (Feb 17, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> is the gist of the thread thus far 'yes'?


my 14/7/2014 point seems now prescient.


----------



## teqniq (Jun 12, 2017)




----------



## Sprocket. (Jun 12, 2017)

teqniq said:


>




Liked for the content not the intended outcome teqniq, do you have a link so I can send on to interested parties?

ETA: Thanks I've found it.


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## Sasaferrato (Jun 15, 2017)

crossthebreeze said:


> Horrendous, but not suprising, and its just going to get worse. I hope this gets people angry.
> I think this bit is important:
> Harrison said the point the authors were making was that in months such as January 2015, which saw a spike in deaths, there was an insufficient service response to a surge in demand. He termed this a “fail event” and warned there could be recurrences over the next five years without a rise in funding. He added that preliminary figures pointed to a possible significant increase in excess deaths last month.​



How much extra are you prepared to pay for the NHS? 1%? 2% 10%? The NHS is capable of absorbing the entire GDP, if allowed to.

We need to have a grown up conversation, not a series of ideological rants, as to what we want from the NHS, and what we are prepared to pay.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jun 15, 2017)

Sasaferrato said:


> How much extra are you prepared to pay for the NHS? 1%? 2% 10%? The NHS is capable of absorbing the entire GDP, if allowed to.
> 
> We need to have a grown up conversation, not a series of ideological rants, as to what we want from the NHS, and what we are prepared to pay.



Soft-selling the tory 'we can't afford universal healthcare' lie again I see. 

We can't afford not to have universal healthcare is the truth of it. The US model that we're being shunted towards actually costs the public purse more than the NHS, despite patients being obliged to pay cash money for their treatments on top of their taxes.

Yes there need to be grown up conversations. No we can't have everything. But the parameters of the debate on these issues must be set by doctors and other professionals, not by politicians or healthcare industry lobbyists or anybody else with an ulterior motive. I'm not willing to accept being told that we can't have a particular service on the NHS by someone who stands to personally gain if that service is not available on the NHS.


----------



## gentlegreen (Jun 15, 2017)

Sasaferrato said:


> How much extra are you prepared to pay for the NHS? 1%? 2% 10%? The NHS is capable of absorbing the entire GDP, if allowed to.
> 
> We need to have a grown up conversation, not a series of ideological rants, as to what we want from the NHS, and what we are prepared to pay.


I'm hoping to move to France where every employer over a certain size has to cough up £1000 a year for Assurance maladie complémentaire to cover charges that are not covered by the state.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 15, 2017)

Sasaferrato said:


> How much extra are you prepared to pay for the NHS? 1%? 2% 10%? The NHS is capable of absorbing the entire GDP, if allowed to.
> 
> We need to have a grown up conversation, not a series of ideological rants, as to what we want from the NHS, and what we are prepared to pay.



The Americans spend 17% of GDP on healthcare and yet tens of millions remain uninsured. We currently spend 9% of GDP on healthcare, are at breaking point, and yet still everyone gets treated when they need it. Even if we went up to 20% we'd still be in a better place than the US.

Surely, the solution lies in keeping the public ownership model of the NHS, with spending increased to relieve the pressure (probably to a number in between 9% and 17%). Seems bloody obvious to me.


----------



## alex_ (Jun 15, 2017)

SpookyFrank said:


> But the parameters of the debate on these issues must be set by doctors and other professionals, not by politicians or healthcare industry lobbyists or anybody else with an ulterior motive. I'm not willing to accept being told that we can't have a particular service on the NHS by someone who stands to personally gain if that service is not available on the NHS.



Someone has to tell these people how much money they can spend.

Drugs are only going to get better at adding more life, and they are going to carry on getting more expensive

We have an aging population as a ratio of the total, life expectancy is lengthening and people aren't dropping dead any more, Which means they are getting diseases which are expensive to treat.

Alex


----------



## Sasaferrato (Jun 15, 2017)

SpookyFrank said:


> Soft-selling the tory 'we can't afford universal healthcare' lie again I see.
> 
> We can't afford not to have universal healthcare is the truth of it. The US model that we're being shunted towards actually costs the public purse more than the NHS, despite patients being obliged to pay cash money for their treatments on top of their taxes.
> 
> Yes there need to be grown up conversations. No we can't have everything. But the parameters of the debate on these issues must be set by doctors and other professionals, not by politicians or healthcare industry lobbyists or anybody else with an ulterior motive. I'm not willing to accept being told that we can't have a particular service on the NHS by someone who stands to personally gain if that service is not available on the NHS.



How dare you? That is not what I said, and you are well aware of that.


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## SpookyFrank (Jun 15, 2017)

alex_ said:


> Someone has to tell these people how much money they can spend.
> 
> Drugs are only going to get better at adding more life, and they are going to carry on getting more expensive
> 
> ...



Costs of treatments is one issue, privatisation quite another. Whatever drug or surgery you look at, it's going to be more cost effective if there isn't some private sector provider siphoning off a percentage for itself and if you don't need armies of lawyers, consultants and accountants to oversee the siphoning process. 

It's also going to be easier to fund and manage a health service that hasn't been split up into little bits for reasons of commercial viability rather than effective patient care.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jun 15, 2017)

Sasaferrato said:


> How dare you? That is not what I said, and you are well aware of that.



You're laying the blame for failing health provision at the feet of the public for wanting everything and refusing to pay for it. Last time I checked it was politicians, specifically your pig-fucking chums in the conservative party, who decide how much funding the NHS is given, not the general public. 

You're also implying with your talk of 'grown up conversations' that those opposing the deliberate sabotage of the entire model of state-funded universal healthcare by the aforesaid pig-fuckers are merely being childish.

Nobody is advocating a blank cheque for the health service. Nobody thinks that there's a possible level of NHS funding sufficient to make all British citizens immortal. People just don't want to see unecessary suffering, which is what current health policy is causing on a grand scale.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jun 15, 2017)

'We have to privatise, because things cost money' is a demonstrably false argument. Privatised services _always_ end up costing more in the long run.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 15, 2017)

SpookyFrank said:


> 'We have to privatise, because things cost money' is a demonstrably false argument. Privatised services _always_ end up costing more in the long run.



And in the short-run too.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Jun 15, 2017)

alex_ said:


> Someone has to tell these people how much money they can spend.
> 
> Drugs are only going to get better at adding more life, and they are going to carry on getting more expensive
> 
> ...



The points you make are valid, especially with regard to pharmaceutical intervention.

I have lung cancer, and see the surgeon on Monday to see where we go from here. (I also have a chest infection, and am feeling like shit, especially after a 19 hour drive back from Cologne yesterday).

Cancer is one of the most expensive of medical conditions to treat, new and more expensive drugs appearing regularly. It is likely that surgery will solve my problem, in the immediate term at least. One thing I am sure of though, I will not be having treatment to extend a miserable existence for a few months at the cost of tens of thousands of pounds. If surgery (perhaps plus some radio or chemotherapy) doesn't do the job, then I will be having no further treatment. I've seen how poor the quality of life that those extended short periods have. No way will thousands be spent for a few weeks or months of life for me, the money can pay for some hips or knees instead.

This is what I mean by adult conversation. Much more information being made available to non-medical people, and them deciding where we spend the money. I have been accused of banging on about cost, but it is the bottom line.

We do need to spend more on healthcare, and a huge amount more on social care, but, there need to be decisions about value for money. None of the life extending cytotoxics are good value, and should all be removed from NHS prescription. 

The poor bloody NHS has been fucked about for decades by both flavours of government, failure and waste being the outcome. Government needs to sit down with healthcare professionals, with no prior hidden agenda, and between them select a model. THEN STICK TO IT. Nothing that is in constant flux ever achieves the best outcome.

As one of the ageing population (64) we must be allowed to die. There must be a realisation that whereas you can save the life of a very elderly stroke victim, you then have to maintain the carcass for a year or two, until they finally shuffle off, at large and pointless expense. Those of you with experience of dealing with victims of severe stroke will know how labour intensive it is, merely keeping the skin intact is a major task in itself.

It would be wonderful if each new drug was affordable, but they are not. There is also the question as to whether they are desirable, never mind affordable.

I've lost count of the weeks since I stopped smoking, 8 or 9 I think, but have now moved from 'Smoker who is not smoking' to 'Non-smoker'.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Jun 15, 2017)

SpookyFrank said:


> 'We have to privatise, because things cost money' is a demonstrably false argument. Privatised services _always_ end up costing more in the long run.



They do indeed. Just been reading in the 'Eye', about the money Birmingham have wasted on an IT contract with Crapita, they are taking things back 'in-house'.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Jun 15, 2017)

SpookyFrank said:


> You're laying the blame for failing health provision at the feet of the public for wanting everything and refusing to pay for it. Last time I checked it was politicians, specifically your pig-fucking chums in the conservative party, who decide how much funding the NHS is given, not the general public.
> 
> You're also implying with your talk of 'grown up conversations' that those opposing the deliberate sabotage of the entire model of state-funded universal healthcare by the aforesaid pig-fuckers are merely being childish.
> 
> Nobody is advocating a blank cheque for the health service. Nobody thinks that there's a possible level of NHS funding sufficient to make all British citizens immortal. People just don't want to see unecessary suffering, which is what current health policy is causing on a grand scale.



No, I am not. The public has no direct say in health spending. (Oh, BTW Urban appears to be the last place on the planet that believes the bullshit about the pig.)

I'm a trained nurse who then trained in pharmacy, what are your healthcare qualifications please.

This is a major and serious problem, yet other than make puerile jokes and 'ad hom' attacks, I have seen absolutely nothing from you that indicates that you have any understanding of the logistics of health care. Indeed, it is clear that like many, you are really quite clueless.

It isn't a question of being able to cure everything on zero resources, it is a question of using available funding as well as possible.

Out of interest, how old are you, because unless you are of pension age, you are going to be paying considerably more in National Insurance contributions than you are now. When I hit 65 on the 4th of October, NI contributions stop. I still will be paying Income Tax of course, but no NI. That is something that should change. There is no reason why pensioners shouldn't pay a few % in NI, it would make a difference, as there are currently circa 11 million pensioners.

Someone at work the other month said to me 'Your generation have had the best of it.' . He was right I think, I don't think I'd like to be 21 again.


----------



## alex_ (Jun 15, 2017)

SpookyFrank said:


> Costs of treatments is one issue, privatisation quite another. Whatever drug or surgery you look at, it's going to be more cost effective if there isn't some private sector provider siphoning off a percentage for itself and if you don't need armies of lawyers, consultants and accountants to oversee the siphoning process.
> 
> It's also going to be easier to fund and manage a health service that hasn't been split up into little bits for reasons of commercial viability rather than effective patient care.



A few percent here and there is nothing when a single persons drugs for a year can cost 100k.

Alex


----------



## yield (Jun 15, 2017)

alex_ said:


> A few percent here and there is nothing when a single persons drugs for a year can cost 100k.
> 
> Alex


There needs to be a look at drug pricing. These spivs are bleeding the NHS dry. Crazy when so much drug research is by public bodies, like Universities, and charities.

Pharmaceutical giant 'plotted to destroy cancer drugs to drive prices up 4,000%'
Price rises for generic cancer drugs are estimated to cost the NHS in England around £380m a year
Saturday 15 April 2017


> Leaked internal emails appear to show employees at one of the world’s leading pharmaceutical companies calling for “celebration” over price hikes of cancer drugs, an investigation has revealed.
> 
> Staff at Aspen Pharmacare reportedly plotted to destroy stocks of life-saving medicines during a price dispute with the Spanish health service in 2014.
> 
> After purchasing five different cancer drugs from British firm GlaxoSmithKline (GSK), the company tried to sell the medicines in Europe for up to 40 times their previous price, reported The Times.


----------



## alex_ (Jun 15, 2017)

yield said:


> There needs to be a look at drug pricing. These spivs are bleeding the NHS dry. Crazy when so much drug research is by public bodies, like Universities, and charities.
> 
> Pharmaceutical giant 'plotted to destroy cancer drugs to drive prices up 4,000%'
> Price rises for generic cancer drugs are estimated to cost the NHS in England around £380m a year
> Saturday 15 April 2017



You can't make them sell you the drugs.

Alex


----------



## yield (Jun 15, 2017)

alex_ said:


> You can't make them sell you the drugs.
> 
> Alex


Surely the Pharmaceutical companies want to sell the drugs? It looks like price gouging to me.

The NHS should be able to buy cheap and safe generic prescription drugs.

Maybe the government ought to repeal a lot of that patent and copyright redtape?


----------



## Blagsta (Jun 15, 2017)

Sasaferrato said:


> No, I am not. The public has no direct say in health spending. (Oh, BTW Urban appears to be the last place on the planet that believes the bullshit about the pig.)
> 
> I'm a trained nurse who then trained in pharmacy, what are your healthcare qualifications please.
> 
> ...



I'm a trained nurse and I think you're full of shit


----------



## Sasaferrato (Jun 16, 2017)

alex_ said:


> You can't make them sell you the drugs.
> 
> Alex


No, but you can set up a NHS manufacturing facility.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Jun 16, 2017)

Blagsta said:


> I'm a trained nurse and I think you're full of shit


Ah, ad hom, the refuge of those with no argument to make.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Jun 16, 2017)

yield said:


> Surely the Pharmaceutical companies want to sell the drugs? It looks like price gouging to me.
> 
> The NHS should be able to buy cheap and safe generic prescription drugs.
> 
> Maybe the government ought to repeal a lot of that patent and copyright redtape?


They can, however, that would have a major effect on the British pharmaceutical industry, as other countries would ignore our patents.


----------



## Blagsta (Jun 16, 2017)

Sasaferrato said:


> Ah, ad hom, the refuge of those with no argument to make.



Ironic


----------



## Sasaferrato (Jun 16, 2017)

yield said:


> Surely the Pharmaceutical companies want to sell the drugs? It looks like price gouging to me.
> 
> The NHS should be able to buy cheap and safe generic prescription drugs.
> 
> Maybe the government ought to repeal a lot of that patent and copyright redtape?



The cost of bringing a new drug to the market is astronomical. It is over a billion pounds. The process is set out here: The price of health: the cost of developing new medicines

Two points from the article:

mandatory studies in animals to determine the toxicity of the drug.

A big part of the problem is that animal models are not particularly predictive of human efficacy.

The reason for continued animal testing is EU regulations, and even when we leave, if we want to sell in the EU, the fairly useless animal tests will continue.

If you spend a billion as a company, you have to get it back, obviously. Drug patents last for 20 years from registration, and it can take eight years after registration before the drug is approved. That leaves 12 years to recoup costs and make a profit before the generics kick in. If you come up with a shit hot analgesic, which will generate millions of scripts, then the price of a course of treatment can be low, if it is a drug for a rare form of cancer, £40k a course is not uncommon.


----------



## NoXion (Jun 16, 2017)

How are animal tests useless? At some point you'll want to test your new drug on an actual living organism, as opposed to a petri dish full of cells or some digital model with however many thousands of assumptions built into it. Better it be a lab rat than a human being, especially since they have much shorter life cycles giving a more complete picture of the drug's effect on a mammalian organism sooner - two to three years, rather than however many decades a human subject might live.


----------



## yield (Jun 16, 2017)

Sasaferrato said:


> The cost of bringing a new drug to the market is astronomical. It is over a billion pounds. The process is set out here: The price of health: the cost of developing new medicines


Drug company R&D: Nowhere near $1 billion.
How drug companies exaggerate research costs to justify absurd profits.
03/03/11


----------



## Sasaferrato (Jun 16, 2017)

NoXion said:


> How are animal tests useless? At some point you'll want to test your new drug on an actual living organism, as opposed to a petri dish full of cells or some digital model with however many thousands of assumptions built into it. Better it be a lab rat than a human being, especially since they have much shorter life cycles giving a more complete picture of the drug's effect on a mammalian organism sooner - two to three years, rather than however many decades a human subject might live.



Thalidomide was extensively tested on animals. So were a range of COX inhibitors that have been withdrawn due to extreme adverse effects.

Ask your vet about giving human medicines to animals.


----------



## NoXion (Jun 16, 2017)

Sasaferrato said:


> Thalidomide was extensively tested on animals. So were a range of COX inhibitors that have been withdrawn due to extreme adverse effects.
> 
> Ask your vet about giving human medicines to animals.



Thalidomide wasn't tested on pregnant animals though.


----------



## 8115 (Jun 16, 2017)

Has anyone posted this yet?

Most of central London hospital to be sold off, plans reveal


----------



## Sasaferrato (Jun 16, 2017)

yield said:


> Drug company R&D: Nowhere near $1 billion.
> How drug companies exaggerate research costs to justify absurd profits.
> 03/03/11




Tufts CSDD R&D Cost Study Now Published | Tufts Center for the Study of Drug Development

Does it really cost $2.6 billion to develop a new drug?

Cost of drug development - Wikipedia

The Tufts Centre is very highly regarded, their figure disagrees with your random chap.

I worked for Roche at the time Mobiflex (Tenoxicam) was approved. The paperwork left our site in a lorry.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Jun 16, 2017)

NoXion said:


> Thalidomide wasn't tested on pregnant animals though.



In fact, extensive animal testing had failed to predict any hazards from thalidomide, and the drug was made available to doctors largely because of the existing animal data. According to James L. Schardein, an expert in teratogens (birth defect-causing substances), "In approximately 10 strains of rats, 15 strains of mice, 11 breeds of rabbits, 2 breeds of dogs, 3 strains of hamsters, 8 species of primates and in other such varied species as cats, armadillos, guinea pigs, swine and ferrets in which thalidomide has been tested, teratogenic effects have been induced only _occasionally_." Moreover, the few animals who did experience birth defects did so only with exposure to huge concentrations of thalidomide. For example, causing deformities in New Zealand white rabbits required drug concentrations between 75 and 300 times the level of human exposure. It is unquestionable that thalidomide is not a teratogen in the vast majority of species and that animal data did not predict the human response. Thus the FDA's animal-testing policy stems largely from a misunderstanding of the facts surrounding the thalidomide case.

AFC - The Tragedy of Thalidomide and the Failure of Animal Testing

Sorry to piss on your chips, but it was tested on pregnant animals.


----------



## yield (Jun 16, 2017)

Sasaferrato said:


> Tufts CSDD R&D Cost Study Now Published | Tufts Center for the Study of Drug Development
> 
> Does it really cost $2.6 billion to develop a new drug?
> 
> ...


The Slate article, which I'm sure you've read, takes apart the Tufts Center group report. Unverified figures and lots of guesswork from the look of it. Doubt it would pass peer review. 



> The first research phase involved in developing a new drug is basic (as opposed to applied) research. Very little of this type of research is funded by drug companies; 84 percent is funded by the government, and private universities provide additional, unspecified funding. The Tufts Center group assumed that drug companies spent, on average, $121 million on basic research to create a new drug, but Light and Warburton find that hard to square with their estimate that industry devotes only 1.2 percent of sales to all their basic research.



Also looks like Tufts Center group receive over a third of their funding from "unrestricted grants from pharmaceutical and biotechnology firms, as well as companies that provide related services to the research-based industry." No agenda though obviously. 

Financial Disclosure | Tufts Center for the Study of Drug Development


> The Tufts Center for the Study of Drug Development (Tufts CSDD) at Tufts University is a non-profit, multi-disciplinary academic research group. The Tufts Center receives unrestricted grants from pharmaceutical and biotechnology firms, as well as companies that provide related services to the research-based industry (e.g., contract research, consulting, and technology firms). These grants represent approximately 35% of Tufts CSDD’s operating expenses. The remainder comes from foundation support, grants for commissioned projects, registration fees for courses and conferences, and subscription fees for Tufts CSDD publications. Sponsoring companies have no direct access to any of the Tufts Center’s proprietary databases. Whereas sponsoring companies, regulators, academics, and others outside of Tufts CSDD may suggest topics for investigation, the research agenda of Tufts CSDD is set by the group’s director and its research staff.



How taxpayers prop up Big Pharma, and how to cap that
27/10/15

Big pharmaceutical companies are spending far more on marketing than research
February 11, 2015

Big pharma is spending millions to fight limits on opioids like OxyContin, Vicodin and fentanyl
September 18, 2016


----------



## teqniq (Jun 26, 2017)

Ffs, cunts!

Jeremy Hunt privatising NHS firm which saves taxpayer £70m a year


----------



## teqniq (Aug 21, 2017)

Whilst the scumbag that is Jeremy Hunt blatantly continues to lie about pretty much anything to do with the NHS and is taken to task over this by Stephen Hawking, we now learn that:

NHS hospitals hit by crippling rate hikes as private hospitals save millions in tax breaks


----------



## Sprocket. (Aug 21, 2017)

You could believe that we are being lied to by millionaire scum-buckets!
Sadly no one will bother until it's too late. Some may tut loudly.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Aug 21, 2017)

teqniq said:


> Whilst the scumbag that is Jeremy Hunt blatantly continues to lie about pretty much anything to do with the NHS and is taken to task over this by Stephen Hawking, we now learn that:
> 
> NHS hospitals hit by crippling rate hikes as private hospitals save millions in tax breaks




NHS hospitals have to pay business rates? wtf is that about?


----------



## Tropi (Aug 21, 2017)

Thread from 2014 and we are still sitting by. But what can we do? 
I saw this extremely creepy outdoor in Wanless Road last night. We are very fucked indeed.


----------



## Ming (Sep 16, 2017)

Anyone heard of The Naylor report? It details the Tories plans to sell off NHS land and buildings. 'The NHS is safe in our hands' and 'no top down reorganization of the NHS on my watch' are 2 whopping lies but they've done it. They've privatized the NHS essentially. It'll just be a privately owned brand in under a decade.


----------



## Ming (Sep 16, 2017)

Bit more on the Naylor report. I had no doubt after the Health and Social Care Act 2012 they'd given themselves the tools to sell the NHS off. Now we're seeing how they're doing it.


----------



## Ming (Sep 16, 2017)

A film the two doctors above were involved in about the privatisation of the NHS. We'll be America in terms of healthcare quite soon.


----------



## Ming (Sep 18, 2017)

I suppose the answer to the original OP is yes.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Sep 21, 2017)

This isnt really politics anymore is it, privatising the NHS, its religion.



Fraternal Greetings, ResistanceMP3


----------



## teqniq (Sep 21, 2017)

It was never about politics, just greed.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Sep 21, 2017)

teqniq said:


> It was never about politics, just greed.


I don't agree, but that's okay. 



Fraternal Greetings, ResistanceMP3


----------



## Ming (Sep 22, 2017)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> I don't agree, but that's okay.
> 
> 
> 
> Fraternal Greetings, ResistanceMP3


What underpins the politics? Altruism? Look at the track record since 1979/80. What we had before and what we’ve had since the right took power. You can argue (as i would) that it’s biological. The amygdala is the part of the brain that is generally thought to control very primitive responses like fight or flight and empathy. The brain generally is thought to have evolved from the top of the spinal column upwards and to the front where the higher reasoning is.
So here i get to my point. Lack of empathy (or the ability to project it further than outside one’s nearest and dearest) is a trait of the right. Their amygdalas don’t function as well as left wingers. They can’t feel the pain that their policies/actions cause to others. And no i’m not saying  all right wingers are psychopaths. But it is a statistical cluster. And i genuinely feel that this issue needs more air in the public sphere. But it does bring up issues of free will and existential matters. And certainly legal issues too. Welcome to the age of biology.
ETA: One last think on rant. It might be an evolutionary advantage to have no empathy. Probably is actually which is why the Tories/Republicans are so effective. But then you go to subjective valuation. What has value? A friendship? Can you quantify that? My first profession was being an accountant. There’s a great book called Accountants’ Truth by Matthew Gill you should all read. Gives real insight into how things are valued in the business world. And what’s left out.


----------



## Ming (Sep 22, 2017)

Anyone reading this thread please watch the first video i posted about the Naylor report. It’s important if you value having access to healthcare.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Sep 25, 2017)

I know where you're coming from, I read a book "The Wisdom Of Psychopaths " a small section of which explained how and why the psychopaths are over represented in the financial industry. However, extinction of humanity is not even in the psychopaths interest.  In the short termism of capitalism is pushing us towards global extinction of human species through global warming et cetera.

In my opinion, the bigger problem is the dominant ideology of the operating SYSTEM.

The Tony Blair's, Rupert Murdoch's, and any other major players there has been actually believe the ideology.  The vast majority of people see no alternative, no realistic alternative with any weight, to the ideology.  So it's not just a matter of greed, in my opinion, they think they are doing the best thing for humanity.  (I'm not saying greed isn't relevant.)

I have been influenced by physics lately.  When looking at society, I prefer to take a system analysis (operating system analogy).

Rather than any individuals greed being the driving force, this system is self-regulating.  Individuals come and go, but the system is gravitating to the logic/maths of the system.  We are quickly approaching the point at which 1% of the population will order over half the world's wealth.  This will happen whichever individuals come and go, because it is the logic/maths on the system.  We need a new operating system.  (To be honest, it's really hard to explain my opinion.  Though as an accountant, you would probably find it quite interesting.  As reality is a mathematical structure :-D)

I'm against berating the right.  Especially the right wing working class people (my best lifelong friend is on an anti-Muslim crusade) for the pragmatic reason, it has no effect.  If anything it pushes them further away from being part of the fight for a better world.  Which is what they want too.

Listening to right wing, religious, scientific, political and every other type of person, I have come to a conclusion that we all seem to be saying the same thing in different languages.  That perhaps we should all concentrate on what we are for, instead of what we are against.  That somehow, someway, we have to include everybody, well at least the majority, which will include all of the above, in the fight to save the NHS and create a better world.

Sorry, I don't think online forums are a good format for honest discussion.  Much better face-to-face with people, but also much more difficult.



Fraternal Greetings, ResistanceMP3 




Ming said:


> What underpins the politics? Altruism? Look at the track record since 1979/80. What we had before and what we’ve had since the right took power. You can argue (as i would) that it’s biological. The amygdala is the part of the brain that is generally thought to control very primitive responses like fight or flight and empathy. The brain generally is thought to have evolved from the top of the spinal column upwards and to the front where the higher reasoning is.
> So here i get to my point. Lack of empathy (or the ability to project it further than outside one’s nearest and dearest) is a trait of the right. Their amygdalas don’t function as well as left wingers. They can’t feel the pain that their policies/actions cause to others. And no i’m not saying  all right wingers are psychopaths. But it is a statistical cluster. And i genuinely feel that this issue needs more air in the public sphere. But it does bring up issues of free will and existential matters. And certainly legal issues too. Welcome to the age of biology.
> ETA: One last think on rant. It might be an evolutionary advantage to have no empathy. Probably is actually which is why the Tories/Republicans are so effective. But then you go to subjective valuation. What has value? A friendship? Can you quantify that? My first profession was being an accountant. There’s a great book called Accountants’ Truth by Matthew Gill you should all read. Gives real insight into how things are valued in the business world. And what’s left out.


----------



## teqniq (Oct 18, 2017)

Scum.

Tories blow £3m of taxpayers cash in failed bid to privatise NHS staffing agency


----------



## teqniq (Oct 24, 2017)

Today marks the day when a founding principle of the NHS is destroyed



> Today you are waking up to a new NHS. An NHS where you will be faced with racial profiling and discrimination at every outpatient appointment. An NHS where you are forced to show your passport before being given “non-urgent” care. An NHS where you will be charged upfront if you cannot prove your eligibility through right to remain or nationality....


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 24, 2017)

teqniq said:


> Today marks the day when a founding principle of the NHS is destroyed


thin end of the wedge


----------



## Corax (Oct 24, 2017)

Sasaferrato said:


> The cost of bringing a new drug to the market is astronomical. It is over a billion pounds. The process is set out here: The price of health: the cost of developing new medicines
> 
> Two points from the article:
> 
> ...


2017 profits

Johnson & Johnson 16.3 Billion
Gilead Sciences 12.2 Billion
Roche 10.0 Billion
Pfizer 8.4 Billion
Abbvie 6.6 Billion
Novartis 6.5 Billion
Novo Nordisk 6.2 Billion
Sanofi 5.7 Billion
Merck 5.1 Billion

I don't think they're struggling to cover their research costs, whatever they may be.


----------



## agricola (Oct 25, 2017)

This isn't a joke.  It looks like it is, and reads as if it is, but it isnt:



> Untrained members of the public could be paid up to £1,000 a month for renting their spare rooms to patients recovering from surgery under an Airbnb-style model the NHS is piloting.
> 
> The scheme aims to offer an alternative to hospitals and care homes for patients who have had minor procedures, but it has come under fire from medical professionals and social workers.
> 
> ...


----------



## yield (Oct 25, 2017)

Crazy. Christ that's daft. A lot of those patients are going to have complex and/or substantial needs. Alcohol and / or drug dependency and / or mental health issues. 

We already have a few "bed blocker" flats in the sheltered and extra care schemes and have issues with inadequate follow up support. Can't see any way that putting people in spare rooms will improve that.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Oct 27, 2017)




----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 27, 2017)

agricola said:


> This isn't a joke.  It looks like it is, and reads as if it is, but it isnt:


it seemed like a good idea at the time. after everyone present had had six pints.


----------



## extra dry (Oct 27, 2017)

SpookyFrank said:


>


Going share this with a few nurses and few doctors.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Oct 27, 2017)

extra dry said:


> Going share this with a few nurses and few doctors.



Twas a doctor friend sent it to me.


----------



## Almor (Oct 28, 2017)

Saw, and shared, this on Facebook


----------



## teqniq (Nov 3, 2017)

Doctors are taking Jeremy Hunt to court to stop him 'Americanising' the NHS


----------



## flypanam (Nov 7, 2017)

The editor of The Lancet has written this, a call for a Marxist interpretation of health. The Lancet.

http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(17)32805-2/fulltext


----------



## SaskiaJayne (Nov 8, 2017)

Good move. They said another £350mill a week so lets have it...

We want our Brexit cash boost - NHS boss


----------



## Chilli.s (Nov 8, 2017)

SaskiaJayne said:


> Good move. They said another £350mill a week so lets have it...
> 
> We want our Brexit cash boost - NHS boss



Yep, a pledge written large, publicised widely, get the money out.


----------



## teqniq (Nov 19, 2017)

So the lying piece of shit that is Philip Hammond was on the Marr show....

Chancellor Philip Hammond refuses to commit £4bn to NHS after funding plea



> The Chancellor has rejected the NHS chief’s plea for an emergency £4bn injection in this week’s Budget, accusing him of exaggerated claims of a crisis.
> 
> Instead, Philip Hammond blamed Simon Stevens for problems in the health service, saying the plan the chief executive drew up “is not being delivered”.
> 
> ...


----------



## teqniq (Nov 19, 2017)

Essentially it's all about stuff like this which popped up on my Twitterfeed the other day...


----------



## teqniq (Jan 19, 2018)

Tories planning to hand private firms '10-15 year NHS contracts' to stop Labour from renationalising | Evolve Politics



> A former Medical Director in the NHS has exposed deeply worrying details of ‘secret’ plans hatched by the Health Secretary Jeremy Hunt to force through a ‘raft of secondary legislation’ (a method used by ruling governments to impose new rules without requiring a full vote in Parliament) that essentially allows the Conservative Party to hand unprecedented 10-15 year contracts to private healthcare firms to run NHS services – contracts that would be hugely expensive for any future government to get out of....


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 19, 2018)

salting the ground, the cunts


----------



## Streathamite (Jan 21, 2018)

Just a brief note, to update anyone who isn't aware of the campaigning network, Keep Our NHS Public. https://keepournhspublic.com/about-us/
They are the biggest and most effective of all the NHS campaign group - and they probably have a branch near you.


----------



## teqniq (Jan 30, 2018)

Stephen Hawking and leading doctors taking Jeremy Hunt to court over NHS 'back door privatisation'



> Professor Stephen Hawking has won permission to take Jeremy Hunt and NHS England to court over controversial proposals to restructure the health service, The Independent can reveal.
> 
> Mr Hunt has tabled a plan which could allow commercial companies to run health and social services across a whole region in what critics have described as allowing back-door privatisation.
> 
> Leading healthcare professionals and Professor Hawking have argued an act of parliament is required, allowing MPs and Lords to scrutinise the proposals, before the policy is implemented and any changes to regulations are made. ...


----------



## teqniq (Apr 27, 2018)

Fury as the Home Office rejects visas for 100 Indian doctors recruited by the NHS



> Hundreds of doctors recruited by the NHS from overseas have been denied visas by the Home Office, leading to increased pressures in the health service.
> 
> NHS bosses said limits on the number of visas issued to non-EU doctors were contributing to rota gaps and delays in patients receiving care...



I don't think it's unreasonable to think this is entirely deliberate


----------



## Chilli.s (Apr 27, 2018)

teqniq said:


> Fury as the Home Office rejects visas for 100 Indian doctors recruited by the NHS
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think it's unreasonable to think this is entirely deliberate


Or just another ill conceived fuck up.


----------



## teqniq (Apr 27, 2018)

Hmmm what when privatisation is on the agenda like the elephant in the room? I think not. That is not to say they are not incapable of fuckups, indeed they seem to excel at them but in this particular instance i think it might suit their endgame no end. Having said that there is also the home office setting targets on immigration which is why I nearly posted this on the Windrush thread, either way from their point of view it could be seen as a win-win situation.


----------



## treelover (Jan 10, 2020)

> RAF hero, 92, left on trolley for 12 hour in crisis-hit NHS
> 
> 
> Stan Solomons, who served in the RAF during the Second World War, was taken to Leicester Royal Infirmary where he waited hours for care
> ...



Looking good eh, Johnson?


----------



## kalidarkone (Jan 10, 2020)

It's a chaotic mess even more then usual.

Last week I looked after a patient that had day case surgery but lived a few hundred miles away. Usually (that does not exist anymore) they would have a bed for the night. However as the hospital was bursting at the seams the trust paid for the patient  and partner to stay in a hotel and arranged for the Hospital at home  Hospital at Home
to visit in the morning before they left for home. They were chuffed....better bed, better food ..and way cheaper then a hospital bed at £65 + a taxi to the hotel and back to the hospital car park the following morning.

Seminal moment. ....I've never ever seen that before.....but makes sense within what is now the 'new normal' hospital climate.

Also theater lists being g cancelled as nowhere to recover patients because recovery rooms (There are 70 self contained tiny recovery rooms up to 24 that get used as patient short stay or escalation during winter pressures which began in August this year) No staff....so many have left....probably almost 1/3 of nurses are Agency -some who have been here 2 years +.

If I had the money and I needed surgery -I'd be going private to ensure I get the surgery asap.
Oh and the NHS hospital have been running private surgical lists for years and is a guaranteed revenue stream for the hospital trust.


----------



## Dogsauce (Jan 11, 2020)

run It down so the better off go private, then once that reaches a critical mass means test the rest of it. Once it ceases to be universal political support will fall away, aided by the usual divide and rule scrounger narrative, “I’m not paying tax for them to have a hip replacement, they’re not even working”, “why should I have to pay for others who aren’t paying into the system” etc.

Already part way there with the last bit with the hugely exaggerated issue of ’health tourism’ by dirty forrins.


----------



## teqniq (Apr 1, 2020)

Penned by the guy who got thown under a bus over the Cambridge Analytica thing, it doesn't tell you anything you didn't already suspect but it's good to see it in print. When the Covid-19 thing is over there need to be a reckoning with the vermin.






						‘Behind Closed Doors Johnson and his Cabinet Do Not Applaud the NHS – They Ideologically Oppose It’ – Byline Times
					

From his time working with Brexit and Conservative lobby groups, Shahmir Sanni argues that the people in power in the UK actually despise social services, despite their praise of them during the COVID-19 pandemic.




					bylinetimes.com


----------



## teqniq (Sep 12, 2020)

> *NHS workers rally in London to demand pay rise*
> *British* healthcare workers have been rallying in central *London* in their scrubs and NHS uniforms to demand better wages, according to the PA news agency.
> After a two-minute in honour of the 640 healthcare workers who have died during the coronavirus pandemic, demonstrators holding banners which read “stop clapping, start paying”, “priceless yet penniless” and “640 healthcare workers dead, blood on their hands”, began a march to Trafalgar Square.
> Nurses were excluded from a wage increase for about 900,000 public sector workers announced in July because they are in the final year of a three-year agreement. The pay increase does not apply to junior doctors either, after they agreed a four-year deal last year.
> ...











						Protests in Germany against restrictions as French cases set new record – as it happened
					

Cases continue to surge in western Europe; Victoria sees one of its lowest totals for months; Brazil deaths climb past 130,000. Follow all the developments




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## teqniq (Feb 17, 2021)

Well this is just totally shit:









						375K London GP patients sold to company owned by US subprime health insurance profiteer
					

London’s biggest GP ‘provider’, AT Medics Ltd, has just been sold to the UK subsidiary of a US subprime health insurance profiteer with a long record of fraud, financial dishonesty, health care mis…




					calderdaleandkirklees999callforthenhs.wordpress.com


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Feb 17, 2021)

teqniq said:


> Well this is just totally shit:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Probably, but that piece is hugely garbled and confusing about what's actually happened.


----------



## teqniq (Feb 18, 2021)

I just reread it. I don't much like the layout, but that's neither here nor there really. It doesn't seem so confusing or garbled to me.


----------



## Badgers (Feb 18, 2021)

Blood on their hands


----------



## teqniq (Feb 18, 2021)

Please sign and share:









						Stop the roll out of Integrated Care Systems in the English NHS (NHS White Paper, Feb 2021)
					

Why you need to sign our petition The NHS in England is rapidly being reorganised into 42 regional Integrated Care Systems (ICSs), while the Covid pandemic rages. These ICSs will strengthen the role of private companies, including US health insurance corporations, in the NHS. NHS England has asked f




					keepournhspublic.com


----------



## teqniq (Feb 27, 2021)

teqniq said:


> Well this is just totally shit:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This has made it into the Graun. It does however make no mention of the parent company's really dodgy track record in the states as outlined in the blog:









						NHS GP practice operator with 500,000 patients passes into hands of US health insurer
					

Merger with Centene Corp covers 500,000 patients fuelling calls for inquiry into ‘NHS privatisation by stealth’




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Cerv (Feb 27, 2021)

oh. that's my GP.
I've not had any communication from the practice mentioning this yet. funny to find out about it in the newspaper


----------



## quiet guy (Feb 27, 2021)

Cerv the patients don't matter. These practice companies only inform us after the fact.

My practice up in Derbyshire was sold to a company down south and then this ended up underperforming and Derbyshire Community Healthcare Service is now running it.


----------



## ska invita (Apr 11, 2021)

Former private health firm chief 'given job' as No10 advisor
					

Samantha Jones, the outgoing chief executive of Operose Health, will take up a post as an "expert adviser for NHS transformation and social care"



					www.mirror.co.uk


----------



## Shechemite (Apr 11, 2021)

Four Cornwall NHS trust directors got overtime pay in pandemic
					

Chief executive says the issue is 'particularly sensitive' when staff have been working so hard over the past year




					www.cornwalllive.com


----------



## bmd (Apr 11, 2021)

It's a pity that there's no political capital here for Labour to spend.


----------



## bmd (Apr 11, 2021)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Four Cornwall NHS trust directors got overtime pay in pandemic
> 
> 
> Chief executive says the issue is 'particularly sensitive' when staff have been working so hard over the past year
> ...



Bless them! They didn't ask for it and they had no idea they'd been paid a few thou extra. 

Imagine not knowing you'd been paid extra. 

Anyway, just like all the MPs, this is nothing to do with them. They just spend it, so don't go blaming them!


----------



## teqniq (Apr 11, 2021)

Please sign:









						We Own It
					

We Own It is a voice for everyone who wants UK public services to be run for people, not profit.




					weownit.org.uk


----------



## teqniq (Apr 11, 2021)

Someone on Twitter suggesting that Starmer should threaten to renationalise, without compensation any parts of the NHS sold off by the vermin when Labour are next in power. Personally I think this is a vote winner, but would Starmer contemplate such a move? Debatable.


----------



## brogdale (Apr 11, 2021)

teqniq said:


> Someone on Twitter suggesting that Starmer should threaten to renationalise, without compensation any parts of the NHS sold off by the vermin when Labour are next in power. Personally I think this is a vote winner, but would Starmer contemplate such a move? Debatable.


Paid for via PFI.


----------



## teqniq (Apr 11, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Paid for via PFI.


What a fucking scem that turned out to be.


----------



## Shechemite (Apr 11, 2021)

NHS is destroying itself comrades. But then you’ve been complicit in your own privatisation since the off.


----------



## Shechemite (Apr 11, 2021)

Don’t think we don’t remember how much you were against the NHS in the first place


----------



## Shechemite (Apr 12, 2021)

God forbid anyone would wish to ‘destroy’ this real piece of socialism.









						Disabled woman who died in Sheffield hospital ‘ignored’, parents tell inquest
					

Laura Booth, 21, stopped eating after she went into Royal Hallamshire hospital for an eye operation




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Shechemite (Apr 12, 2021)

National religion


----------



## Shechemite (Apr 13, 2021)

They concluded he had come to A&E because he felt lonely, and sent him home – alone. 









						Luke Naish’s family ‘still having to fight’ after ‘uncritical’ inquest into his death - The Bristol Cable
					

Luke’s Naish’s loved ones say care he received from Avon and Wiltshire Mental Health Partnership was inadequate, and that his inquest did not deliver justice. They are the third family to criticise the Avon Coroner in recent years, and are now seeking a judicial review.




					thebristolcable.org


----------



## Shechemite (Apr 13, 2021)

MadeInBedlam said:


> NHS is destroying itself comrades. But then you’ve been complicit in your own privatisation since the off.




those ‘high intensity networks’ being rolled out in the NHS in order to criminalise distress and manage ‘litigious’ patients. Don’t worry, whilst they are about making ‘the NHS’ more ‘efficient’ in servicing the needs of state and capital, they have a nice intersectional touch









						Richard Stubbs
					

Richard is the CEO of the Yorkshire and Humber Academic Health Science Network.




					www.data-can.org.uk


----------



## Shechemite (Apr 13, 2021)

_Established_ member of the NHS assembly


----------



## teqniq (Apr 13, 2021)

MadeInBedlam If you wish to catalogue things that the NHS or it's staff have got wrong, why don't you start a thread on it? None of what you have posted above have got anything to do with NHS privatisation, unlike this:









						Tories accused of corruption and NHS privatisation by former chief scientist
					

Exclusive: Boris Johnson’s ‘chumocracy’ is using Covid crisis to sell off health service by stealth, says Sir David King




					www.theguardian.com
				




TIA


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 13, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> is the gist of the thread thus far 'yes'?


i've seen nothing to make me alter my opinion


----------



## Border Reiver (Apr 14, 2021)

bmd said:


> Bless them! They didn't ask for it and they had no idea they'd been paid a few thou extra.
> 
> Imagine not knowing you'd been paid extra.
> 
> Anyway, just like all the MPs, this is nothing to do with them. They just spend it, so don't go blaming them!


The bonuses have been returned and the chief executive has been forced out of the health service.


----------



## bmd (Apr 14, 2021)

Border Reiver said:


> The bonuses have been returned and the chief executive has been forced out of the health service.



So what? They got it and we only know about it because of a FoI request. So... what?


----------



## Edie (Apr 14, 2021)

MadeInBedlam said:


> They concluded he had come to A&E because he felt lonely, and sent him home – alone.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The conclusion is far more complex than that


----------



## Border Reiver (Apr 14, 2021)

bmd said:


> So what? They got it and we only know about it because of a FoI request. So... what?


Reality over falsehoods.


----------



## bmd (Apr 14, 2021)

Border Reiver said:


> Reality over falsehoods.



Jolly good.


----------



## Border Reiver (Apr 14, 2021)

bmd said:


> Jolly good.


Glad you approve.


----------



## MrSki (Apr 25, 2021)

Who would have thought it?


----------



## teqniq (Jun 20, 2021)

I imagine it can have escaped few people's attention that Dido Harding has applied for the the top job with the NHS. Married to John Penrose who has advocated for a private heath insurance system. She completely fucked up test and trace, wasting billions on something that doesn't even work properly, the only people who have benefited from that are the private contractors. Quelle surprise. Now she's indulging in dogwhistle shite saying that she will end the reliance on foreign doctors and nurses:



Would it be too much to hope that she's overstepped the mark with this? Having her as the head of the NHS would be a disaster.


----------



## platinumsage (Jul 28, 2021)

Amanda Pritchard appointed, obviously as part of some cunning Tory plan.


----------



## teqniq (Jul 29, 2021)

That'll be install someone who is considered a safe pair of hands unlike Dido Harding who is anything but.

Meanwhile:









						Forget the spin – new English NHS bill is all about cutting our right to healthcare
					

Far from reversing the disastrous 2012 reforms, this new bill makes it even easier to axe and privatise services – that’s the real COVID ‘recovery plan’




					www.opendemocracy.net


----------



## Edie (Nov 13, 2021)

The whole system now is so broken I can’t look at it, like the sun. 

In Leeds, there are 9 care coordinators in community camhs with a waiting list of 420 children and young people.

Cat A ambulances in YAS are routinely taking double the response time, and an elderly person with a fall can wait 4-6 hours on the ground (‘cover them with a blanket and stay with them’ deviates from the NICE guidance for fractured neck of femur when time to theatre crucially effects survival). 

I would no longer call an emergency ambulance for myself. When my femoral artery ruptured post endovascular neurosurgery I got my kids to drag me to the car. My MiL with a spinal infarct presenting with cauda equina syndrome, incontinent, and paralysed legs waited two hours until her elderly husband and an Uber driver lifted her into a cab. 

The Emergency Department at Jimmies is functioning like a third world triage centre, patients on trolleys in the corridors, calling out from cubicles for help, people trying to sleep on the floor of the waiting room, waiting all night or all day often with no pain relief.

And Primary Care has ceased to function. To get an appointment now at my practice you have to call in a 10 min window at the start of the day, if you miss it tough shit, you can’t even sit and wait anymore. When my son was ill this summer I got fobbed off for five days. Eventually I walked in (crying) and refused to leave until I had a same day face to face appointment. But I give no shits, I won’t take no for an answer, I have no mental health problems, money on my phone, I’m not elderly, and I work in the NHS.

Specialist referrals- my mates kid got referred to an urgent respiratory clinic at Leeds General Infirmary. After 8 weeks she rang up Choose & Book (choose & book hahaha fuck off you cunts) and got told yes her daughter was fifth on the list. Rang back a month later, guess what she’s still fifth. The phone operator looked into it. The list was for urgent patients who required face to face appointment, but that clinic wasn’t running currently only the non-urgent phone clinic. You couldn’t make it up could you. Obviously my friend then had to go back to the GP (hello endless phone cycle, your number 19 in the queue, omg are there even 19 appointments left?!) to amend the referral.

2ww referrals now routinely handled by private outpatient clinics, staffed by NHS consultants acting in addition to their 6 NHS PAs, all paid double by the NHS.

The NHS is not even consistently delivering basic care now. It’s more dangerous existing in this fucked up state than not existing at all. It’s an illusion of a healthcare system. There is no amount of protesting or placard waving or striking or even money that can fix this. I feel utterly powerless and the only way I can deal with it is to basically not think about it and do my job, on a beach full of stranded jellyfish picking up and throwing them one at a time back into the sea.


----------



## existentialist (Nov 13, 2021)

Edie said:


> And Primary Care has ceased to function. To get an appointment now at my practice you have to call in a 10 min window at the start of the day, if you miss it tough shit, you can’t even sit and wait anymore. When my son was ill this summer I got fobbed off for five days. Eventually I walked in (crying) and refused to leave until I had a same day face to face appointment. But I give no shits, I won’t take no for an answer, I have no mental health problems, money on my phone, I’m not elderly, and I work in the NHS.


I work in a GP surgery, and it is increasingly the case that people are coming up to reception and doing exactly that, having tried for days to get through on a phone call which queues them for half an hour or more, and then just says "Nobody is available to answer your call" and dumps it.

It's not just that it's shit...it's that the ways in which it is shit couldn't be CALCULATED to be more shit if they tried.


----------



## Badgers (Nov 13, 2021)

Fucking #ToryScum 😡


----------



## existentialist (Nov 13, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Fucking #ToryScum 😡


Yes...but alongside some clunky, clodhopping systems and processes which only serve to make the whole thing worse.


----------



## Badgers (Nov 13, 2021)

existentialist said:


> Yes...but alongside some clunky, clodhopping systems and processes which only serve to make the whole thing worse.


#ToryScum


----------



## glitch hiker (Nov 13, 2021)

Edie said:


> The NHS is not even consistently delivering basic care now. It’s more dangerous existing in this fucked up state than not existing at all. It’s an illusion of a healthcare system. There is no amount of protesting or placard waving or striking or even money that can fix this. I feel utterly powerless and the only way I can deal with it is to basically not think about it and do my job, on a beach full of stranded jellyfish picking up and throwing them one at a time back into the sea.


Been like this for a while IME. We had a village surgery. The old dr's retired. They couldn't get new blood, apparently so they merged with nearby surgeries. This happened right around the creation of CCG's. The new entity coudln't really be bothered to staff the local surgery while happy to take private money running a service for employers to 'check' (in some fashion) on employees who reported sickness. Sounded well sus. Now the local surgery has been shut during the afternoons for a few years and from what I've been told, is mainly and administration hub. The main surgery, which was where vaccines were being rolled out, is inaccessible without a car. Fortunately I was able to get a lift from the local community transport, but that won't be possible for routine appointments, nor for everyone. Prior to the pandemic they introduced a web based appointment service for booking appointments. Not much better than the telephone and no good without online access. It was also inscrutable to use. The pandemic stopped that. I don't know when it will be restored, or it, so it's back to queuing up on the phone for an appointment at 8am when lines open. It is a fait accompli taht the lines will be jammed.


----------



## LDC (Nov 13, 2021)

Edie said:


> The whole system now is so broken I can’t look at it, like the sun.
> 
> In Leeds, there are 9 care coordinators in community camhs with a waiting list of 420 children and young people.
> 
> ...



Innit. Just about to leave primary care and start at full time at A&E , not looking forward to it. I've seen patients in the last 2-3 months and needed to call an ambulance for them and have regularly been on hold for 30 mins or so. That's not 'have a chat, they think it's not serious so put me on hold', that's nobody answers the phone for 30 mins hold.

So many problems on so many levels, hard to know how to start fixing it tbh.


----------



## eatmorecheese (Nov 13, 2021)

The current situation is callous, calculated and totally _deliberate._

They want to carve up the NHS 'cake' and sell it off. They know that the NHS is the one institution that people across the political spectrum will defend, so the strategy is to make things so ineffably shit, so full of dysfunction and smattered with individual anecdotes of tragedies that people will end up taking their 'proposals' seriously. Not having a proper social care plan also just piles the pressure on.

I want a reckoning. I want these criminals, these cowards who use their money to insulate themselves and their families from this stream of shit to be held to account. 

We need to make sure that these individual tragedies are remembered collectively as an affront to any notion of 'civilization'. This is our reality, our families and lives. Not theirs. This country was _never _ours.

Fuck them to hell and back.


----------



## Edie (Nov 13, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Innit. Just about to leave primary care and start at full time at A&E , not looking forward to it. I've seen patients in the last 2-3 months and needed to call an ambulance for them and have regularly been on hold for 30 mins or so. That's not 'have a chat, they think it's not serious so put me on hold', that's nobody answers the phone for 30 mins hold.
> 
> So many problems on so many levels, hard to know how to start fixing it tbh.


I mean it’s quite incredible when you think about that. A call from a GP practice to the ambulance service unanswered after 30 minutes. Just not picked up. It is no longer an emergency service. It is not functional. In Yorkshire, UK. Mind boggling.

Makes you wonder if it is this bad in the South. I suspect so. My cuz is a paramedic in Bristol and it’s certainly this bad there. I suspect not in the South East where there is more wealth.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Nov 13, 2021)

Edie said:


> I mean it’s quite incredible when you think about that. A call from a GP practice to the ambulance service unanswered after 30 minutes. Just not picked up. It is no longer an emergency service. It is not functional. In Yorkshire, UK. Mind boggling.
> 
> Makes you wonder if it is this bad in the South. I suspect so. My cuz is a paramedic in Bristol and it’s certainly this bad there. I suspect not in the South East where there is more wealth.



My partner and various members of my family have all been through very similar versions of the kind of shit you describe. We all live in the South West.

111 calls don't get answered any more. At all. Ambulance waiting times are so bad you'd be better off walking to hospital even with a broken leg. Have been since before the summer. 

My mum had to get my stepdad to hospital in the back of her car when he broke his shoulder. A five foot woman in her sixties manhandling a badly injured six foot bloke, knowing she was hurting him and knowing she had no choice. And she's given her whole working life to the NHS, only to watch it disintegrate in front of her. Just awful.


----------



## Edie (Nov 13, 2021)

I don’t know what we do. On a practical level, what do we do?

I now don’t hesitate to use PALS. If I want something done, I contact them straight off. It has some effect on inpatient care (this was for my son on one occasion when he needed an urgent surgical assessment, and advice I give to my patients including contacting them on behalf of my patients).

I also now openly advise patients not to call or wait for an ambulance in an emergency unless there is no other alternative- no family member, taxi, neighbour, or if it’s literally a cardiac arrest or the patient in unable to be moved. I was advising a PC in attendance with a patient the night before last by telephone, and I told him to transport the young person to A&E in his car not call YAS.

I openly advise patients to use private healthcare for mental health problems unless they are already under a CMHT or have a psychotic disorder or life threatening ED.

And I’d have a very low threshold for using private medical care for my own family if it was elective. I don’t think I’d get insurance myself (brain aneurysm, rheumatoid arthritis, previous neck liposarcoma) but am considering insuring my kids.

At work I protect my time & sanity as much as I can.

I don’t know what else to do. Nothing else works.


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Nov 13, 2021)

.


----------



## Edie (Nov 13, 2021)

HoratioCuthbert said:


> As someone that has worked in social care their entire adult life now, i dunno how it helps being accused of "sitting by" whilst it is being destroyed. like 2 or 3 years ago me and my colleagues came onto shift to a HANDWRITTEN NOTE from some NHS employed nurse or doctor 'HERE IS WHAT YOU DO IF THIS PERSONS FOOT DETACHES'      and they gave some great instructions but we had no fucking idea where to put this persons foot once we dealt with it, in the sink? in the bathroom? in the bin? And no one where i worked could tell us where to leave this detached foot. now this was nearly 2 years before covid, post covid there are now younger people finding out what it is like to be completely fucking abandoned by the NHS  but this is not new territory, welcome to the party guys. This has been going on for decades and no one has given a fuck before now so don't hold your breath. Fucking 100 per cent abandonment fae the NHS is something i factored into my job as a carer for the elderly well over a decade ago. I have seen people in states you would not leave a dog in and the NHS just says it isn't their problem.  You guys are seeing this with covid now. isn't it fucking grim.
> 
> 
> Not a dig at any of the frontline workers in this thread obviously, I have just had enough of the whole shitshow.


Struggling to make sense of this post. Who has accused social care of sitting by? Why couldn’t you get advice about clinical waste? The problem with the NHS isn’t due to covid, and we’re certainly not just seeing it now? It’s not just ‘frontline’ workers who are effected it’s everyone?


----------



## glitch hiker (Nov 13, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> My partner and various members of my family have all been through very similar versions of the kind of shit you describe. *We all live in the South West.*
> 
> 111 calls don't get answered any more. At all. Ambulance waiting times are so bad you'd be better off walking to hospital even with a broken leg. Have been since before the summer.
> 
> My mum had to get my stepdad to hospital in the back of her car when he broke his shoulder. A five foot woman in her sixties manhandling a badly injured six foot bloke, knowing she was hurting him and knowing she had no choice. And she's given her whole working life to the NHS, only to watch it disintegrate in front of her. Just awful.


As do i. This week hospitals declared maximum state of emergency. AnE is at breaking point and people are told to stay away unless it is *absolutely* urgent. But how do you?

Remember the situation in 2019 around the time of the election that Labour stupidly allowed to go ahead? Kids sleeping on chairs? Matt Hancock promising to recruit 50,000 new nurses ina  fit of intellectual sabotage and chicanery? All those promises broken. Nurses betrayed with a real terms pay cut following the pandemic they knew was coming?

These past months have felt hperaccelarated. A lifetime's worth of corruption and lies in less than 2 years. Like the extreme weather events they will also ignore. 

I'm not sure how much long this can continue. We are on the sharp edge of something. Never mind they intend to do nothing about the mass exodus of care workers due to vaccine mandates (assuming that happens). We now have a covid crank and an ex banker running the show and a fucking shredded wheat in a shirt who can't even be bothered to wear a mask in a hospital. They literally do not care


----------



## SpookyFrank (Nov 13, 2021)

glitch hiker said:


> As do i. This week hospitals declared maximum state of emergency. AnE is at breaking point and people are told to stay away unless it is *absolutely* urgent. But how do you?



It's a lot harder to stay out of A&E when there's no other treatment you can access. The out of hours GP provision here is an answering machine telling you to fuck off. The walk in centre is suitable only for people who don't currently have hepatitis, but would like to.  

I'm joking, but only just


----------



## Edie (Nov 13, 2021)

glitch hiker said:


> As do i. This week hospitals declared maximum state of emergency. AnE is at breaking point and people are told to stay away unless it is *absolutely* urgent. But how do you?
> 
> Remember the situation in 2019 around the time of the election that Labour stupidly allowed to go ahead? Kids sleeping on chairs? Matt Hancock promising to recruit 50,000 new nurses ina  fit of intellectual sabotage and chicanery? All those promises broken. Nurses betrayed with a real terms pay cut following the pandemic they knew was coming?
> 
> ...


A shredded wheat in a shirt?


----------



## glitch hiker (Nov 13, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> It's a lot harder to stay out of A&E when there's no other treatment you can access. The out of hours GP provision here is an answering machine telling you to fuck off. The walk in centre is suitable only for people who don't currently have hepatitis, but would like to.
> 
> I'm joking, but only just


It makes sense that people would go to AnE if they can't go elsewhere. Unfortuantely our shit Tory MP has done anything about the local hospital which has been incrisis for years. It's AnE was (perhaps still is) shut at nights anyway. The hospital is rated 'inadequate'. Good Job Tories. Ten years!


----------



## Ming (Nov 13, 2021)

Badgers said:


> #ToryScum


Than you for keeping your eye on the ball. The Tories are deliberately underfunding the NHS to make it look shit so they can send in the private sector to ‘rescue’ it.


----------



## kalidarkone (Nov 13, 2021)

Ming said:


> Than you for keeping your eye on the ball. The Tories are deliberately underfunding the NHS to make it look shit so they can send in the private sector to ‘rescue’ it.


I agree that is the agenda and has been for years.....but what I don't understand is how the private sector can save anything when there is just not enough staff? 

It would take years to get enough staff to run a fit for purpose service. A large amount of staff are nearing retirement (@55 years specially if they have worked for the NHS for a few decades) The nursing degree course doesn't have as much take up since it stopped being a free degree. Brexit......all at the same time as the birth rate rising and people living longer...

There is not enough staff to provide a SAFE service. Is this only true of the NHS?

Is it different in private hospitals?

A lot of the consultants here (NHS teaching hospital) also work in private hospitals (2 tier system) 

Private patients have been creeping onto some of the theatre lists I work on. Same treatment as NHS patients (theoretically) cept they get a pre op super quick and only have to wait a week for surgery. Wouldn't suprise me if they were also first on the theatre list on the day - meaning they are more likely to get better care then someone who is operated on in the afternoon as staffing reduces as the day goes on.

Can't see a way out of this shit show.


----------



## Ming (Nov 13, 2021)

kalidarkone said:


> I agree that is the agenda and has been for years.....but what I don't understand is how the private sector can save anything when there is just not enough staff?
> 
> It would take years to get enough staff to run a fit for purpose service. A large amount of staff are nearing retirement (@55 years specially if they have worked for the NHS for a few decades) The nursing degree course doesn't have as much take up since it stopped being a free degree. Brexit......all at the same time as the birth rate rising and people living longer...
> 
> ...


You work in the NHS right (I did 5 years in acute psychiatry in the NHS (currently working in Canada (shifted over after my ward got closed)))?
The private sector aren’t into saving anything. It’s all about profits for them. The NHS is two things to the right. A functioning successful example of socialism which must be destroyed for ideological reasons and a huge pile of public cash to be robbed. That’s it.


----------



## Dogsauce (Nov 13, 2021)

Ming said:


> Than you for keeping your eye on the ball. The Tories are deliberately underfunding the NHS to make it look shit so they can send in the private sector to ‘rescue’ it.


They won’t rescue it though. There’s a finite amount of staff. All they will do is make this resource available to the highest bidder only via the private sector, it’s all about queue jumping for the wealthy, the rest can fuck off to some faith-based charity or something.


----------



## Ming (Nov 13, 2021)

Dogsauce said:


> They won’t rescue it though. There’s a finite amount of staff. All they will do is make this resource available to the highest bidder only via the private sector, it’s all about queue jumping for the wealthy, the rest can fuck off to some faith-based charity or something.


Agree.


----------



## campanula (Nov 13, 2021)

Ah, I have had 2 A&E visits in the last 4 years (both pre-covid). No-one even gets through the door. You are expected to stand on the outside pavement (or lie on the ground, in the case of my youngest, with a ruptured appendix). We watched a man whose entire upper body was a lurid scarlet, after some chemical accident, have to stand behind a fucking rugby player with a fucked ankle (yep, this was Saturday afternoon) for 20 minutes. No seats, no trolleys. Fortunately, I brought duvets, pillows...and when my tooth was in utter agony, with no dentists to be had anywhere ( O, the laughable 111!!!), I removed it myself with an adjustable wrench and kitchen paper...because the NHS, as an institution, has been a shitshow for years, even before Covid.


----------



## Ming (Nov 14, 2021)

campanula said:


> Ah, I have had 2 A&E visits in the last 4 years (both pre-covid). No-one even gets through the door. You are expected to stand on the outside pavement (or lie on the ground, in the case of my youngest, with a ruptured appendix). We watched a man whose entire upper body was a lurid scarlet, after some chemical accident, have to stand behind a fucking rugby player with a fucked ankle (yep, this was Saturday afternoon) for 20 minutes. No seats, no trolleys. Fortunately, I brought duvets, pillows...and when my tooth was in utter agony, with no dentists to be had anywhere ( O, the laughable 111!!!), I removed it myself with an adjustable wrench and kitchen paper...because the NHS, as an institution, has been a shitshow for years, even before Covid.


Sure. Try that under an insurance based system like the USA and see the outcome. If you can pay for it you can jump the queue. Triaging sounded weird in your situation.


----------



## Humberto (Nov 14, 2021)

I feel sorry for the nurses. They are given the same working conditions but no reward every. single time. They are at the front line and can see the system is broken more than anyone. It must be a brutal (and thankless) experience.


----------



## Ming (Nov 14, 2021)

Humberto said:


> I feel sorry for the nurses. They are given the same working conditions but no reward every. single time. They are at the front line and can see the system is broken more than anyone. It must be a brutal (and thankless) experience.


I am a nurse. You work with what you have if your at the coal face. And nurses are tough so no problem. The systemic issues are annoying though.


----------



## campanula (Nov 14, 2021)

Triaging started once you got inside, Ming...but until then, people had to wait outside the doors while every single person had to answer a heap of questions, delivered by a nurse standing in front of a podium with a laptop on it, just inside the main doors. Shit like name and address of GP, NHS number, next of kin...before the tiniest clinical decisions were made. And, because a lot of people really just needed a GP or a dentist or non-urgent stuff (such as antibiotics for an infection), there was a huge bottleneck, right at the entrance. Truly astonishing, seeing people shivering, bleeding, clutching blankets, on the street...as though we were queuing to go to the cinema or something.


----------



## Ming (Nov 14, 2021)

campanula said:


> Triaging started once you got inside, Ming...but until then, people had to wait outside the doors while every single person had to answer a heap of questions, delivered by a nurse standing in front of a podium with a laptop on it, just inside the main doors. Shit like name and address of GP, NHS number, next of kin...before the tiniest clinical decisions were made. And, because a lot of people really just needed a GP or a dentist or non-urgent stuff (such as antibiotics for an infection), there was a huge bottleneck, right at the entrance. Truly astonishing, seeing people shivering, bleeding, clutching blankets, on the street...as though we were queuing to go to the cinema or something.


Sounds like it needs the genius of the market place.


----------



## Humberto (Nov 14, 2021)

Does it enrich me, check

Does it punish the poor, check


----------



## Ming (Nov 14, 2021)

Humberto said:


> Does it enrich me, check
> 
> Does it punish the poor, check


I don’t think there is any sadism involved. Just no empathy for other people. #knowyourenemy


----------



## Badgers (Nov 14, 2021)

Would have been worse under Corbyn


----------



## LDC (Nov 14, 2021)

If people think it's solely an under-funding issue, and that you can just blame the Tories, then they're deluded.

There's multiple factors across society that have led to this situation, and yes, made much worse by funding and staffing etc. but the upshot of it is poor housing, widespread anxiety and depression, alcohol and drug issues, a huge ageing population, isolated individual living situations (no social & family support), access to other services, lack of exercise, work related ill-health issues, loss of self reliance and an understanding of caring for your own health, shit diets and obesity, etc etc.

There's no way to fix this without a massive restructuring of how we live and work.


----------



## kalidarkone (Nov 14, 2021)

Ming said:


> You work in the NHS right (I did 5 years in acute psychiatry in the NHS (currently working in Canada (shifted over after my ward got closed)))?
> The private sector aren’t into saving anything. It’s all about profits for them. The NHS is two things to the right. A functioning successful example of socialism which must be destroyed for ideological reasons and a huge pile of public cash to be robbed. That’s it.


I think I'm not making myself clear. 
I understand about the private sector and what they are about.

What I'm questioning  and trying to see is how any health service REGARDLESS of if it is private or NHS will be delivered- when the NHS has almost a 100K posts unfilled and this will continue to increase due to mandatory vaccines, retirement, poor take up of health degrees, Brexit....added to a increasing, ageing population and increasing poverty.


----------



## Edie (Nov 14, 2021)

Humberto said:


> I feel sorry for the nurses. They are given the same working conditions but no reward every. single time. They are at the front line and can see the system is broken more than anyone. It must be a brutal (and thankless) experience.


Nurses, healthcares, porters, ward clerks, pharmacists, secretaries, radiographers, physios, doctors, OTs, mortuary attendants, receptionists, ODPs. Don’t divide us, we are all on the front line.


----------



## Edie (Nov 14, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> If people think it's solely an under-funding issue, and that you can just blame the Tories, then they're deluded.
> 
> There's multiple factors across society that have led to this situation, and yes, made much worse by funding and staffing etc. but the upshot of it is poor housing, widespread anxiety and depression, alcohol and drug issues, a huge aging population, isolated individual living situations (no social & family support), access to other services, lack of exercise, work related ill-health issues, loss of self reliance and an understanding of caring for your own health, shit diets and obesity, etc etc.
> 
> There's no way to fix this without a massive restructuring of how we live and work.


Amen


----------



## LDC (Nov 14, 2021)

I do wonder if one day I'll wake up and the entire population will somehow either be at their GP or on the phone to them, talking to 111, in A&E or waiting for an ambulance, admitted as an inpatient somewhere, or just having had a diagnosis of a chronic health condition, and the country will just suddenly stop...

The question that needs answering is "Why the fuck is everyone so ill?" Fix the reason for _that _and the NHS can start to get fixed.


----------



## existentialist (Nov 14, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> I do wonder if one day I'll wake up and the entire population will somehow either be at their GP or on the phone to them, talking to 111, in A&E or waiting for an ambulance, admitted as an inpatient somewhere, or just having had a diagnosis of a chronic health condition, and the country will just suddenly stop...
> 
> The question that needs answering is "Why the fuck is everyone so ill?" Fix the reason for _that _and the NHS can start to get fixed.


I'll tell you part of the reason: mental health. Many GPs, etc, I speak to openly acknowledge that a very significant proportion of their patients are presenting with things which overlay often long-term mental health problems, and our NHS mental health, at every level right up to acute provision, is parlous. So the can gets kicked down the road, and chronic mental health problems flow into chronic physical health problems, and often the most time-consuming and expensive ones to treat.

I know it's not the whole problem, but it's definitely playing a part. Meanwhile, we let people twist in the wind until they get desperate, then spend over a grand a night warehousing them in acute psychiatric units, only to kick them out, no better, when someone comes along who needs the bed more. And it's been like that for at least 30 years.


----------



## ska invita (Nov 14, 2021)

existentialist said:


> I'll tell you part of the reason: mental health. Many GPs, etc, I speak to openly acknowledge that a very significant proportion of their patients are presenting with things which overlay often long-term mental health problems, and our NHS mental health, at every level right up to acute provision, is parlous. So the can gets kicked down the road, and chronic mental health problems flow into chronic physical health problems, and often the most time-consuming and expensive ones to treat.
> 
> I know it's not the whole problem, but it's definitely playing a part. Meanwhile, we let people twist in the wind until they get desperate, then spend over a grand a night warehousing them in acute psychiatric units, only to kick them out, no better, when someone comes along who needs the bed more. And it's been like that for at least 30 years.


in lambeth and southwark there are new schemes of social provision where GPs pass on 'patients' with social problems to someone who workswith them and puts them in touch with services directly related to their needs (debt, housing, loneliness etc etc). It works. it needs more funding.  there are other such new schemes in the UK - i expect it will become commonplace before long


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## existentialist (Nov 14, 2021)

ska invita said:


> in lambeth and southwark there are new schemes of social provision where GPs pass on 'patients' with social problems to someone who workswith them and puts them in touch with services directly related to their needs (debt, housing, loneliness etc etc). It works. it needs more funding.  there are other such new schemes in the UK - i expect it will become commonplace before long


We have something like that down here - they're calling them "community connectors". But all too often, it's just a way of funnelling people with social AND MH problems down a cheaper quick-fix route. Not to say that it is pointless, but it still misses addressing the elephant in the room.


----------



## Edie (Nov 14, 2021)

Edie said:


> Nurses, healthcares, porters, ward clerks, pharmacists, secretaries, radiographers, physios, doctors, OTs, mortuary attendants, receptionists, ODPs. Don’t divide us, we are all on the front line.


Psychologists, advance nurse practitioners, dieticians, lab techs, midwives, physician associates… no wait, everyone hates them. 

Only joking PAs, we love you really, no one resents you for being a cost saving exercise, your one of the team


----------



## LDC (Nov 14, 2021)

existentialist said:


> I'll tell you part of the reason: mental health. Many GPs, etc, I speak to openly acknowledge that a very significant proportion of their patients are presenting with things which overlay often long-term mental health problems, and our NHS mental health, at every level right up to acute provision, is parlous. So the can gets kicked down the road, and chronic mental health problems flow into chronic physical health problems, and often the most time-consuming and expensive ones to treat.
> 
> I know it's not the whole problem, but it's definitely playing a part. Meanwhile, we let people twist in the wind until they get desperate, then spend over a grand a night warehousing them in acute psychiatric units, only to kick them out, no better, when someone comes along who needs the bed more. And it's been like that for at least 30 years.



Yeah totally, I included that with mentioning the ill-health stuff generally, although it's 'anxiety and depression' specifically that always stun me with how commonplace they are.

And I think for me mental health is also a bit of a fundamental question with what's going on, i.e. if things are so great, and the way we live is the 'right one', then why the actual fuck are so many people unhappy and/or mentally unwell?


----------



## Edie (Nov 14, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Yeah totally, I included that with mentioning the ill-health stuff generally, although it's 'anxiety and depression' specifically that always stun me with how commonplace they are.
> 
> And I think for me mental health is also a bit of a fundamental question with what's going on, i.e. if things are so great, and the way we live is the 'right one', then why the actual fuck are so many people unhappy and/or mentally unwell?


When I first started (now going on 13 years ago) the hidden prevalence of depression and anxiety stunned me. And you’d have no idea walking down the street, older guys in manual jobs especially common.


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## ska invita (Nov 14, 2021)

existentialist said:


> We have something like that down here - they're calling them "community connectors". But all too often, it's just a way of funnelling people with social AND MH problems down a cheaper quick-fix route. Not to say that it is pointless, but it still misses addressing the elephant in the room.


What's the elephant? Capitalism?


----------



## teqniq (Nov 14, 2021)

With regard to mental health services, I think (someone please correct me if I'm wrong) that these services have been first in line for cuts and have pretty much been cut to the bone. If I am supporting someone with mental health issues and they agree to ask their GP to make a referral to the local community or primary mental health team they will get one phone call, which if they don't answer will mean the team will close the file and if their issues persist a new referral will need to be made. Down the line in large part, I believe to all the cuts this seems to have led to some degree to a culture of institutionalised indifference. Very often people in local mental health teams are virtually impossible to contact directly. They don't give out email addresses which means that you can't send them signed confidentiality and information disclosure forms authorising you to act on someone's behalf subsequently they won't talk on the phone without the person you are supporting being present which is not possible all the time, if the person has poor English necessitating an interpreter this can add another layer of difficulty and if someone's missed their call they simply say a new referral will need to be made and so round it goes.


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## teqniq (Nov 14, 2021)

This is worth a read:


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## Edie (Nov 14, 2021)

teqniq said:


> This is worth a read:



That’s very well written, and an accurate portrait. It’s not just doctors with exit plans however.

Relatives texting patients to “tell him he’s a cunt” 🥲 😍🤣 The Great British Public. Gives you hope dunnit.


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## Spandex (Nov 14, 2021)

A big part of what's pushing the NHS over the edge is the impacts of over a decade of austerity being exacerbated by the pandemic.

In the aftermath of the financial crash in 2008 local councils knew what was coming and started cutting funding to a lot of small charities that had started receiving funding during the Blair/Brown years. Often run by a handful of people they provided local support services to people in need - the nice, non-statutory stuff like support groups for disabled people, MH groups, etc. They did a lot of almost invisible work keeping people out of crisis. Councils also did a lot of efficiency savings in that '08 to '10 period.

That meant when Cameron/Clegg came to power and started austerity proper there were not many efficiency saving to be had and what followed was cuts, cuts, cuts. Drug and alcohol support, MH services, social services, housing, financial support, you name a support service and it's been devastated by austerity. Councils struggle (and often fail) to meet their most basic statutory obligations to people through lack of funds. People who have problems of any kind now can't get the help they need. There's youngsters waiting years for a CAMHS referral, their lives falling apart when early intervention could've steadied them. And the problems caused by this lack of support falls on the police and schools and the NHS to sort out. Then the pandemic hit and disrupted those threadbare services and the whole thing is teetering on the point of collapse. People who've had no help find their health suffers and they end up in the struggling health system.

Of course that's not the whole story. The structure of the NHS has been made into an unmanageable mess over the decades. Houses no longer seem to be about having somewhere to live instead being an investment opportunity for those who can afford it. That was going on well before austerity started thanks to Tory governments red and blue. And the housing crisis feeds into the other impacts. 'Efficiency savings' across all areas of work to maximise profits, to 'promote growth'  have seen working conditions for people hit and hit, so that workers, working and middle class, are treated like disposable drones. The sense of being able to work hard and have a decent life is disappearing for everyone except the very well off and super rich. That has a knock on effect on people's mental health and sense of self worth. That's another process that's been going on for decades.

This would all take many years to sort out if there was a government who both wanted to and was capable of sorting it out and I don't even see one of those on the horizon.


----------



## LDC (Nov 14, 2021)

Spandex said:


> This would all take many years to sort out if there was a government who both wanted to and was capable of sorting it out and I don't even see one of those on the horizon.



It's possible to sort out, but to do so (short of a massive grassroots  movement to do so) there needs to be massive sweeping state interventions in most aspects of life; and people won't like or possibly even tolerate that tbh. And it's similar to the pandemic and climate stuff, it needs to be pretty much global in scope.

I reckon give me limitless power and I'd have a good go.


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## Edie (Nov 14, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> It's possible to sort out, but to do so (short of a massive grassroots  movement to do so) there needs to be massive sweeping state interventions in most aspects of life; and people won't like or possibly even tolerate that tbh. And it's similar to the pandemic and climate stuff, it needs to be pretty much global in scope.
> 
> I reckon give me limitless power and I'd have a good go.


I’d vote you in. I’m serious.

I’d get you and Marmot side by side.


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## Puddy_Tat (Nov 14, 2021)

existentialist said:


> Meanwhile, we let people twist in the wind until they get desperate, then spend over a grand a night warehousing them in acute psychiatric units, only to kick them out, no better, when someone comes along who needs the bed more.



or until they do something that gets the police involved then spend however much it costs to lock them up in the nick instead


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## Shechemite (Nov 14, 2021)

What do you mean by ‘loss of self reliance’ LDC? We’re all _more_ self reliant aren’t we these days? Got mindfulness apps etc


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## Edie (Nov 14, 2021)

MadeInBedlam said:


> What do you mean by ‘loss of self reliance’ LDC? We’re all _more_ self reliant aren’t we these days? Got mindfulness apps etc


Christ you should see an average primary care list. People attend for verrucas. For a spot. For colds. I’m not even kidding.

Simultaneously those seriously ill cannot be seen, and the worried well queue.

It’s symptomatic of a loss of community, or family support, of care networks, of traditional wisdom even. A lack of confidence, or a presentation of struggle, but a struggle in our minds, in society. Engel was right in many ways.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 14, 2021)

Edie said:


> Christ you should see an average primary care list. People attend for verrucas. For a spot. For colds. I’m not even kidding.
> 
> Simultaneously those seriously ill cannot be seen, and the worried well queue.
> 
> It’s symptomatic of a loss of community, or family support, of care networks, of traditional wisdom even. A lack of confidence, or a presentation of struggle, but a struggle in our minds, in society. Engel was right in many ways.


After Thatcher, major, Blair, brown, Cameron, may and Johnson all doing their damndest to destroy communities and the things that fasten society together it's really no surprise. There's only three institutions that draw people together, the NHS, the army and the monarchy.* And imo that drawing together power is quite weak

*Yeh yeh I know loads of people don't care about the army or the monarchy but those three national institutions are effectively the only ones used by the state to draw people together now


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## Edie (Nov 14, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> After Thatcher, major, Blair, brown, Cameron, may and Johnson all doing their damndest to destroy communities and the things that fasten society together it's really no surprise.


Society was better in the 1950s to 70s you feel? Was that due to the loss of life in the Second World War leading to social cohesion would you say?

How we measure wellness is difficult isn’t it. Life expectancy is one measurement, but a crude proxy really. Income another, altho wealth & health inequality more important once abject poverty defeated.

Health isn’t the absence of disease. It’s determined by the quality of our relationships, starting with our relationship with ourselves. Disease can actually bring wellness, a stroke patient whose lesion irons out the conflict in their character. Or the diabetic patient who acts as a patient- expert teaching fellow patients how to manage their illness and forging health-promoting relationships. We all meet patients like these in our clinical practice.

The NHS is the tip of the iceberg.


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## Puddy_Tat (Nov 14, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> After Thatcher, major, Blair, brown, Cameron, may and Johnson all doing their damndest to destroy communities and the things that fasten society together



"there is no such thing as society"


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## Shechemite (Nov 14, 2021)

There’s certainly a relationship between the quality of ones community and family relationships and ones ‘self’ reliance.


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## Edie (Nov 14, 2021)

Puddy_Tat said:


> "there is no such thing as society"


“I have a problem, it’s the Government’s job to cope with it”. Said she.

Her point was where is the self reliance, the community reliance, in this attitude.


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## LDC (Nov 14, 2021)

MadeInBedlam said:


> What do you mean by ‘loss of self reliance’ LDC? We’re all _more_ self reliant aren’t we these days? Got mindfulness apps etc



Yeah, I think it's a complex mix of both tbh. You're totally right, on one level we're all on our own as individual consumers/patients/etc, expected to be self reliant and able to sort our problems out; and if not then there's an app or a therapy or a pill on the market to fix you (or at least make you better enough to work and shop or not cause _too_ many problems). (E2A: not that I am having a go at modern medicine, it's a fucking miracle the shit people can fix or help lots with now.)

But also people have deferred basic self care to experts, a professionalized class of people who specialize in health. Which is right for many things, but not loads of common non-serious general ailments that we all get throughout our life. There's also related to this (and other factors like less inter-generational living and the rise of individualized housing) been a loss of confidence and knowledge around basic health and healthcare and an understanding of bodies and how they work, a rise in self-diagnosis via the internet (anxiety related again), and a general fear of getting ill and old pushed by a market driven cult of youth and beauty and corresponding loss of status and role for older adults.


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## Edie (Nov 14, 2021)

MadeInBedlam said:


> There’s certainly a relationship between the quality of ones community and family relationships and ones ‘self’ reliance.


And wellness. Both physical and mental, altho I don’t hold with that Cartesian bullshit.


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## LDC (Nov 14, 2021)

I'm at work, borderline close to throwing shit through the window and running down the street naked screaming incoherent revolutionary slogans.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 14, 2021)

Edie said:


> Society was better in the 1950s to 70s you feel? Was that due to the loss of life in the Second World War leading to social cohesion would you say?
> 
> How we measure wellness is difficult isn’t it. Life expectancy is one measurement, but a crude proxy really. Income another, altho wealth & health inequality more important once abject poverty defeated.
> 
> ...


There have been forty plus years of attack on things that draw people together. There's been a concerted effort to undermine the institutions of solidarity be they formal eg unions or informal eg bonds of community through the sale of council houses. This isn't a question of was life bette in the fifties or seventies - in some ways it was, obviously in others it wasn't. Student finance, for example, far better in the seventies: but access to higher education worse

But what my post was about wasn't the good auld days if they existed but the way in which the NHS has become increasingly central to society as it has been knocked and knocked and knocked by successive governments. There's less and less binding this country together as a cohesive society and that's part of what leads to the trivial cases you mention coming to hospital. I thought my point echoed and developed your point, it wasn't in any way in opposition


----------



## Shechemite (Nov 14, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> I'm at work, borderline close to throwing shit through the window and running down the street naked screaming incoherent revolutionary slogans.



G’wan


----------



## Edie (Nov 14, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> There have been forty plus years of attack on things that draw people together. There's been a concerted effort to undermine the institutions of solidarity be they formal eg unions or informal eg bonds of community through the sale of council houses. This isn't a question of was life bette in the fifties or seventies - in some ways it was, obviously in others it wasn't. Student finance, for example, far better in the seventies: but access to higher education worse
> 
> But what my post was about wasn't the good auld days if they existed but the way in which the NHS has become increasingly central to society as it has been knocked and knocked and knocked by successive governments. There's less and less binding this country together as a cohesive society and that's part of what leads to the trivial cases you mention coming to hospital. I thought my point echoed and developed your point, it wasn't in any way in opposition


I didn’t read it as opposition. I was musing.

I’m not sure I swallow the kool aid about societal cohesion tho. Is that just rose-tinted spectacles. That’s what I wanted you to explain. What communities were better 40 years ago, and in what ways, and why.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Nov 14, 2021)

Edie said:


> I didn’t read it as opposition. I was musing.
> 
> I’m not sure I swallow the kool aid about societal cohesion tho. Is that just rose-tinted spectacles. That’s what I wanted you to explain. What communities were better 40 years ago, and in what ways, and why.


40 years ago we were into the 80s!


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## Edie (Nov 14, 2021)

S☼I said:


> 40 years ago we were into the 80s!


I’d guess Pickmans meant between the 50s and 70s, but he can correct it


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## LDC (Nov 14, 2021)

S☼I said:


> 40 years ago we were into the 80s!



Yeah I always make the mistake of saying 40 years ago when I mean closer to 70 or 80!


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## Pickman's model (Nov 14, 2021)

Edie said:


> I didn’t read it as opposition. I was musing.
> 
> I’m not sure I swallow the kool aid about societal cohesion tho. Is that just rose-tinted spectacles. That’s what I wanted you to explain. What communities were better 40 years ago, and in what ways, and why.





Edie said:


> I’d guess Pickmans meant between the 50s and 70s, but he can correct it


You introduced loss of community into the discussion so maybe you'd like to say a few words about what you meant


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## Edie (Nov 14, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> You introduced loss of community into the discussion so maybe you'd like to say a few words about what you meant


What did you mean by ‘damndest to destroy community’ then? I’m confused. Tell me your point again?


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## StoneRoad (Nov 14, 2021)

To me, at least, the community we've lost is the one where neighbours and all the generations were looked after by each other, at least for the simpler things. The one where people shared and helped ... and stood up for each other at work and at play.

IDK, maybe I'm looking back with rose-tinted specs on, because I also know that time had a lot wrong with it, in many respects.

But there's a reason why the Beveridge committee wrote their report & Nye Bevan built the NHS ...


----------



## Sasaferrato (Nov 14, 2021)

There is a slight fly in the ointment with the views expressed above. Here in the semi-Marxist paradise of Scotland, the NHS (a fully devolved entity) is in just as much a state of utter chaos as in England.


----------



## StoneRoad (Nov 14, 2021)

Sasaferrato said:


> There is a slight fly in the ointment with the views expressed above. Here in the semi-Marxist paradise of Scotland, the NHS (a fully devolved entity) is in just as much a state of utter chaos as in England.


Speaking recently to my SiL - a senior radiographer in NHS England - she reckons that the decades of underfunding the front-line has crippled the service (despite building some "new" hospitals, mostly with fewer beds), even before the excess stresses that covid and especially the un-vaxx'ed, are adding to the present system. 
Her cure would be to massively cut the upper levels of non-productive management 'suits' and stop buying branded drugs when generic versions exist. The released funds could then go towards funding enough full-time staff to have enough beds & wards open to deal with demand. Oh, and decentralise as much as possible ...


----------



## Steel Icarus (Nov 14, 2021)

Sasaferrato said:


> the semi-Marxist paradise of Scotland


----------



## Sasaferrato (Nov 14, 2021)

S☼I said:


>



I know a number of SNP politicians who have described the party as Marxist, some haven't though, hence 'semi'.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Nov 14, 2021)

Sasaferrato said:


> I know a number of SNP politicians who have described the party as Marxist, some haven't though, hence 'semi'.


Which ones?


----------



## Sasaferrato (Nov 14, 2021)

StoneRoad said:


> Speaking recently to my SiL - a senior radiographer in NHS England - she reckons that the decades of underfunding the front-line has crippled the service (despite building some "new" hospitals, mostly with fewer beds), even before the excess stresses that covid and especially the un-vaxx'ed, are adding to the present system.
> Her cure would be to massively cut the upper levels of non-productive management 'suits' and stop buying branded drugs when generic versions exist. The released funds could then go towards funding enough full-time staff to have enough beds & wards open to deal with demand. Oh, and decentralise as much as possible ...



Absolutely.

A monolithic procurement system, an axe to the unnecessary management posts, and a state medicine works for common user items would be a start.

The military hospital at Woolwich, 450 beds, all specialities bar geriatrics, had a nursing hierarchy of three, Matron and two deputies. The next level was Ward Sister. Compensate by increasing pay annually, and keep the experience patient facing.


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## Sasaferrato (Nov 14, 2021)

S☼I said:


> Which ones?


Councillors. I don't move in the circle of MSPs.

One of the Councillors was Frank Anderson, whom I worked with, he was PCS office chair.

Unfortunately:









						SNP councillor suspended after sharing "anti-semitic" blog about trade unionist
					

A complaint had been made about Frank Anderson after he shared the material.




					www.dailyrecord.co.uk


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## Steel Icarus (Nov 14, 2021)

Sasaferrato said:


> Councillors. I don't move in the circle of MSPs.
> 
> One of the Councillors was Frank Anderson, whom I worked with, he was PCS office chair.
> 
> ...


So one random councillor who appears in an article with no reference to the thing you claim he said. Riiiiggghhhttt.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Nov 14, 2021)

S☼I said:


> So one random councillor who appears in an article with no reference to the thing you claim he said. Riiiiggghhhttt.



I really don't know what you are getting your knickers in a twist about. Ask the SNP rank and file how they view the political ethos of their party. The answer you will get is way left of Labour.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Nov 14, 2021)

Sasaferrato said:


> I really don't know what you are getting your knickers in a twist about. Ask the SNP rank and file how they view the political ethos of their party. The answer you will get is way left of Labour.


No knickers twisted at all. Just wondered if you could back it up. Evidently not. 
Also you can go quite a way to the left of Labour without hitting anything like Marxist.


----------



## 8ball (Nov 14, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> After Thatcher, major, Blair, brown, Cameron, may and Johnson all doing their damndest to destroy communities and the things that fasten society together it's really no surprise. There's only three institutions that draw people together, the NHS, the army and the monarchy.* And imo that drawing together power is quite weak
> 
> *Yeh yeh I know loads of people don't care about the army or the monarchy but those three national institutions are effectively the only ones used by the state to draw people together now



They've found they make a lot more headway by pulling people apart.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Nov 14, 2021)

S☼I said:


> No knickers twisted at all. Just wondered if you could back it up. Evidently not.
> Also you can go quite a way to the left of Labour without hitting anything like Marxist.



Oh well, from your home in England, you no doubt know best.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Nov 14, 2021)

Sasaferrato said:


> Oh well, from your home in England, you no doubt know best.


I'm saying nothing of the sort, I'm just asking for you to substantiate a claim you've made. Just because you're so old your preferred pronouns are was/were doesn't mean you get a free pass to make wild claims you subsequently can't back up.


----------



## LDC (Nov 14, 2021)

Sasaferrato said:


> There is a slight fly in the ointment with the views expressed above. Here in the semi-Marxist paradise of Scotland, the NHS (a fully devolved entity) is in just as much a state of utter chaos as in England.



None of the issues I raise as problems are that different in Scotland, even with their_ wildly_ different idyllic life in the 'semi-Marxist paradise of Scotland'.


----------



## Badgers (Nov 14, 2021)

S☼I said:


> I'm saying nothing of the sort, I'm just asking for you to substantiate a claim you've made. Just because you're so old your preferred pronouns are was/were doesn't mean you get a free pass to make wild claims you subsequently can't back up.


Makes one wonder how he votes 🤔


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## Shechemite (Nov 14, 2021)

Oh dear Warning of ‘wild west’ in depression treatment as UK clinics offer ketamine


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## Sue (Nov 14, 2021)

Sasaferrato said:


> I really don't know what you are getting your knickers in a twist about. Ask the SNP rank and file how they view the political ethos of their party. The answer you will get is way left of Labour.


What do you think? I'm guessing far right, given you used to call it the 'Scottish Nazi Party'..?  🤣


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## Sasaferrato (Nov 14, 2021)

Sue said:


> What do you think? I'm guessing far right, given you used to call it the 'Scottish Nazi Party'..?  🤣



Oh aye, they are known up here as the SNazis, a bit of a misnomer really as they are left not right. The command and control ethos fits both the extreme left and right of course.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Nov 14, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> None of the issues I raise as problems are that different in Scotland, even with their_ wildly_ different idyllic life in the 'semi-Marxist paradise of Scotland'.



So, how do you square that with the views expressed that the Conservatives are deliberately sabotaging the NHS? Are the SNP doing the same?


----------



## Sue (Nov 14, 2021)

Sasaferrato said:


> Oh aye, *they are known up here as the SNazis*, a bit of a misnomer really as they are left not right. The command and control ethos fits both the extreme left and right of course.


Are they really? You're the only person I've ever heard use that.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Nov 14, 2021)

Sue said:


> Are they really? You're the only person I've ever heard use that.











						No to Scottish Independence and the SNP | Facebook
					

This group is for all political party supporters to share information against  SNP.....There may be things that you dont like so just walk on by. It can get intense around election time so please...




					www.facebook.com
				




Anything else you would like to be not quite correct on?


----------



## Steel Icarus (Nov 14, 2021)

I fear we're perilously close to _somebody_ claiming the Nazis were actually left wing because National _Socialism_ etc


----------



## SpookyFrank (Nov 14, 2021)

Sue said:


> Are they really? You're the only person I've ever heard use that.



'Up here' in the sense of, 'up here in the attic where the wife sends me to rant and rave when I'm having one of my moments'.


----------



## Sue (Nov 14, 2021)

Sasaferrato said:


> No to Scottish Independence and the SNP | Facebook
> 
> 
> This group is for all political party supporters to share information against  SNP.....There may be things that you dont like so just walk on by. It can get intense around election time so please...
> ...


Oh, sorry, I didn't realise we were talking about randoms on Facebook. (Not that i can view the stuff in there so I'll have to take your word for it.)

You do know that random groups on Facebook supporting whatever is kind of up there with 'hundreds of PMs of support', right? 🤣


----------



## Sasaferrato (Nov 14, 2021)

Sue said:


> Oh, sorry, I didn't realise we were talking about randoms on Facebook. (Not that i can view the stuff in there so I'll have to take your word for it.)
> 
> You do know that random groups on Facebook supporting whatever is kind of up there with 'hundreds of PMs of support', right? 🤣



I just love the way that you have been proven wrong, but still insist you are right.   

An SNP supporter per chance? That is their view also on:

Ferries
Hospitals
Smelters
Investment Bank
State Power Company
Airports
Loans to defunct turbine company

etc...


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Nov 14, 2021)

Sasaferrato said:


> I just love the way that you have been proven wrong, but still insist you are right.
> 
> An SNP supporter per chance? That is their view also on:
> 
> ...


What is? That the white race is supreme? I didn’t realise that was what was stopping them giving Orkney RET fares, fucking hell


----------



## Sasaferrato (Nov 14, 2021)

HoratioCuthbert said:


> What is? That the white race is supreme? I didn’t realise that was what was stopping them giving Orkney RET fares, fucking hell



The list of SNP failures is huge, but the cult are certain that more power to them is the answer.


----------



## Badgers (Nov 14, 2021)

HoratioCuthbert said:


> What is? That the white race is supreme? I didn’t realise that was what was stopping them giving Orkney RET fares, fucking hell


----------



## hegley (Nov 14, 2021)

Sasaferrato said:


> No to Scottish Independence and the SNP | Facebook
> 
> 
> This group is for all political party supporters to share information against  SNP.....There may be things that you dont like so just walk on by. It can get intense around election time so please...
> ...


Meanwhile, back on facebook ...


----------



## Badgers (Nov 14, 2021)

hegley said:


> Meanwhile, back on facebook ...
> 
> View attachment 296800


Lot of members there 🤔


----------



## hegley (Nov 14, 2021)

Sasaferrato said:


> There is a slight fly in the ointment with the views expressed above. Here in the semi-Marxist paradise of Scotland, the NHS (a fully devolved entity) is in just as much a state of utter chaos as in England.


This hasn't been my experience of NHS Scotland; I read threads like this in horror about waiting times, not being able to access GPs, timely hospital treatment and am always thankful I'm up here.


----------



## LDC (Nov 14, 2021)

Sasaferrato said:


> So, how do you square that with the views expressed that the Conservatives are deliberately sabotaging the NHS? Are the SNP doing the same?



I said I think it's far from solely Tory or just an under-funding issue, although I under-funding is a part of the problem and one that NHS Scotland hasn't completely escaped either.


----------



## Sue (Nov 14, 2021)

Sasaferrato said:


> I just love the way that you have been proven wrong, but still insist you are right.
> 
> *An SNP supporter per chance*? That is their view also on:
> 
> ...


Nope. Think you'll find it's 'not proven' given I can't actually see the content of that group. 🤷‍♀️ 

I find you really funny tbh. A perfectly-judged, comedic character. Bravo sir!


----------



## Shechemite (Nov 14, 2021)

Free prescriptions in Scotland apparently. Alba Uber alles


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 14, 2021)

Edie said:


> What did you mean by ‘damndest to destroy community’ then? I’m confused. Tell me your point again?


Maybe go back and reread my post. There are interest groups and institutions which cross class and sex boundaries and bind society together, and there's been a concerted effort by successive governments to defund and destroy groups and bodies which bind people together. I've mentioned council housing. But there's also education, which is now so much to the test. There were various services formerly widespread eg youth clubs. Playing fields. Libraries have been a favourite target over many years. There's been a change in attitudes which sees competition as better than cooperation. And now as I say the three institutions which attract imo the most support in this country are the armed forces, the monarchy and the NHS. And support for the first and last has increased while those institutions have been cut and cut and cut.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Nov 14, 2021)

hegley said:


> This hasn't been my experience of NHS Scotland; I read threads like this in horror about waiting times, not being able to access GPs, timely hospital treatment and am always thankful I'm up here.



Howden Health Centre is two weeks wait for a telephone consultation at the moment. (And that's after the 97 calls to get through in the first place.)

I don't doubt though, that other places are in a better position. Livingston has doubled in size pretty much, in thirty years, GP services haven't changed. It was getting tough for appointments pre-pandemic. I have a friend who lives down in the Borders who can still get a 'same day' appointment.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Nov 14, 2021)

Sue said:


> Nope. Think you'll find it's 'not proven' given I can't actually see the content of that group. 🤷‍♀️
> 
> I find you really funny tbh. A perfectly-judged, comedic character. Bravo sir!


And I find you to be a disingenuous dissembler.


----------



## Edie (Nov 14, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Maybe go back and reread my post. There are interest groups and institutions which cross class and sex boundaries and bind society together, and there's been a concerted effort by successive governments to defund and destroy groups and bodies which bind people together. I've mentioned council housing. But there's also education, which is now so much to the test. There were various services formerly widespread eg youth clubs. Playing fields. Libraries have been a favourite target over many years. There's been a change in attitudes which sees competition as better than cooperation. And now as I say the three institutions which attract imo the most support in this country are the armed forces, the monarchy and the NHS. And support for the first and last has increased while those institutions have been cut and cut and cut.


You’re making the same point I did but with examples 👍🏻


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 14, 2021)

Edie said:


> You’re making the same point I did but with examples 👍🏻


Yeh as I said before post echoed and developed your point


----------



## Dogsauce (Nov 15, 2021)

teqniq said:


> This is worth a read:



That is a little bit ‘fake news’ given the exact same story was circulated a number of years ago, pre-pandemic, so the reference to masks in the preamble is putting it a bit out of context. It was a pre-election visit which fits with the text.  Not that I doubt the account at all.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 17, 2021)

The last 3% NHS pay deal now = a real terms pay cut of 1.2% and worsening.


----------



## On Fire (Nov 18, 2021)

NHS going down the pan under a Tory government. No surprise there.


----------



## teqniq (Nov 20, 2021)




----------



## Carvaged (Nov 20, 2021)

If you want to use the NHS in England then your vote should be compulsorily attached to an approved socialist party by default. That would sort the wheat from the chaff - see how many Tory voters are left after that!


----------



## Shechemite (Nov 20, 2021)

Ah, the Bob Gill who declared Baba-Garba having her striking off overturned as ‘a victory for the Nhs’. 

All round charming bloke


----------



## teqniq (Nov 20, 2021)

I did not know this but seriously? Is that all you are going to bring to the thread? It does not make him wrong in the tweet that I posted. Try actually posting something relevant to the thread title.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 20, 2021)

brogdale said:


> The last 3% NHS pay deal now = a real terms pay cut of 1.2% and worsening.


Didn't it also have to be paid out of existing budgets?


----------



## Ming (Nov 20, 2021)

teqniq said:


> I did not know this but seriously? Is that all you are going to bring to the thread? It does not make him wrong in the tweet that I posted. Try actually posting something relevant to the thread title.


He seems to hate healthcare staff.


----------



## Shechemite (Nov 21, 2021)

Ming said:


> He seems to hate healthcare staff.



Do you even know who jack adcock was? 

I don’t think that defending doctors who kill disabled kids (of defending antisemites) is a good strategy for keeping the private sector away from healthcare myself


----------



## teqniq (Nov 21, 2021)




----------



## Edie (Nov 21, 2021)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Do you even know who jack adcock was?
> 
> I don’t think that defending doctors who kill disabled kids (of defending antisemites) is a good strategy for keeping the private sector away from healthcare myself


Bawa-Garba did not kill Jack Adcock. The NHS did. That’s an important distinction.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 21, 2021)

teqniq said:


>



All NHS bills are bad news


----------



## quiet guy (Nov 21, 2021)




----------



## Curiouscarl (Nov 21, 2021)

Yes.  

They'll do it and get away without any real fuss. 

The British government rely on their citizens docility.


----------



## teqniq (Nov 22, 2021)




----------



## teqniq (Nov 22, 2021)




----------



## PR1Berske (Nov 22, 2021)




----------



## not-bono-ever (Nov 23, 2021)

fuck them and fuck the patsys that support them


----------



## StoneRoad (Nov 23, 2021)

not-bono-ever said:


> fuck them and fuck the patsys that support them


Of course, Those supports are not likely to need publicly funded facilities as they can afford the private sector ...

and s*d the rest of us.


----------



## Carvaged (Nov 23, 2021)

StoneRoad said:


> Of course, Those supports are not likely to need publicly funded facilities as they can afford the private sector ...
> 
> and s*d the rest of us.



The median Tory voter is actually often poorer and less likely to work than a Labour voter (the Tories win the unemployed vote, for example, while Labour always enjoys an easy majority among the working population). One would therefore assume Tory voters are either just dumber (and studies do show they have lower IQs) and/or more ignorant and gullible/misinformed/misanthropic/antisocial [pick your prejudice, I guess] for the most part.


----------



## StoneRoad (Nov 23, 2021)

These days, I live in a constituency that would vote in a donkey if it wore a blue rosette. 

It is pretty rural & right wing. In some areas, more sheep than people !
Not to mention how well-to-do most of the people are in comparison to the national average. The majority are house-owners, have multiple cars, sprogs go away to private schools, pre-plague expensive holidays & sports, "ladies who lunch".

There are pockets in most of the market towns with people at the other end of the spectrum. Mostly renting and working for a living, but barely getting by [with a food bank] ...

[I have lived in areas with other political & social aspirations ... ]


----------



## 8ball (Nov 23, 2021)

StoneRoad said:


> These days, I live in a constituency that would vote in a donkey if it wore a blue rosette.



I live in a constituency that did exactly this.  It wasn’t the well-to-do types voting Tory, either.  It was quite the opposite that swung it.


----------



## Rimbaud (Nov 23, 2021)

Carvaged said:


> The median Tory voter is actually often poorer and less likely to work than a Labour voter (the Tories win the unemployed vote, for example, while Labour always enjoys an easy majority among the working population). One would therefore assume Tory voters are either just dumber (and studies do show they have lower IQs) and/or more ignorant and gullible/misinformed/misanthropic/antisocial [pick your prejudice, I guess] for the most part.



Unless you are counting retired as unemployed, I find that hard to believe.


----------



## Carvaged (Nov 23, 2021)

Rimbaud said:


> Unless you are counting retired as unemployed, I find that hard to believe.



Unemployed working age adults. Indeed, it seems crazy, but the fact anyone who isn't a billionaire votes Tory anyway is proof Turkeys regularly vote for Christmas, so it shouldn't be that surprising.

Edit: I'll try and find y'all said juicy stats for the 2019 election later on.


----------



## Rimbaud (Nov 23, 2021)

Carvaged said:


> Unemployed working age adults. Indeed, it seems crazy, but the fact anyone who isn't a billionaire votes Tory anyway is proof Turkeys regularly vote for Christmas, so it shouldn't be that surprising.
> 
> Edit: I'll try and find y'all said juicy stats for the 2019 election later on.



Struggling to find statistics for 2019, but in 2017, 28% of unemployed voters voted Tory, compared to 54% Labour.









						Majority of every worker group support Labour except the retired, poll finds
					

Majority of those in work, unemployed or in education back Labour over the Tories, survey reveals




					www.independent.co.uk
				




I can't find anything on 2019 but I find it unlikely that it was such a dramatic swing in only 2 years.


----------



## Carvaged (Nov 23, 2021)

Rimbaud said:


> Struggling to find statistics for 2019, but in 2017, 28% of unemployed voters voted Tory, compared to 54% Labour.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yeah you're probably right. My brain has a tendency to collect unusual/random facts and that was one of them that had stuck from 2019, but I can't find any current source for it now and YouGov gives it 32% to 46% for 2019. Brain fart I guess.


----------



## teqniq (Nov 23, 2021)

Unsurprisingly it got voted through due to the vermin's majority so it's down to the lords next.


----------



## 8ball (Nov 23, 2021)

teqniq said:


> Unsurprisingly it got voted through due to the vermin's majority so it's down to the lords next.



Such a shite state of affairs when our last line of defence is this bunch of old establishment duffers.
Rubs salt into the wound when you consider that they often succeed in protecting the populace from the elected representatives. 
All so weird.


----------



## ska invita (Nov 23, 2021)

8ball said:


> Such a shite state of affairs when our last line of defence is this bunch of old establishment duffers.


Lords is an irrelevance - its no line of defence.


----------



## 8ball (Nov 23, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Lords is an irrelevance - its no line of defence.



Very urbans.  +4 points

Plenty of times when I used to be in Amnesty where the Lords quashed some dodgy bills.  But hardly an irrelevance given their position.

Would have to dig for examples.  They chucked out the appeal on fox hunting but that was ages ago tbf.


----------



## Humberto (Nov 23, 2021)

8ball said:


> Very urbans.  +4 points



My understanding is that they can return the Bill, to the Commons and after several times (used to be three?) they are bound to ratify it.


----------



## Humberto (Nov 24, 2021)

Including the first though.


----------



## teqniq (Nov 27, 2021)

Website for booking NHS appointments offers mostly private healthcare


----------



## nottsgirl (Nov 27, 2021)

Dentistry is de facto private round here, you cannot get in anywhere for love or money, people are advised to go to A and E where you can access painkillers and antibiotics in extreme cases. I am still registered at my old dentists. Saw a dentist yesterday advertising a private check up for £30.


----------



## Serge Forward (Nov 27, 2021)

Aye, same here if you're a new patient.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 27, 2021)

i had to book a check up some months back (nhs) - booked in may for august


----------



## Curiouscarl (Jan 11, 2022)

quiet guy said:


> View attachment 297688


I love the NHS. 

And I hope the Uk does not become the 51st state of America.


----------



## Carvaged (Jan 13, 2022)

> "Sajid Javid has ordered the boss of the NHS to give private hospitals up to £270m, even though they may not treat any NHS patients in return.
> 
> The health secretary ignored strongly worded warnings from Amanda Pritchard and instructed her to hand private hospitals £75m to £90m a month from NHS England funds for the next three months, in case they are needed to help manage a new Omicron-driven surge in Covid cases. But private hospitals’ lack of staff meant they could not be relied upon to treat any NHS cases anyway, even if asked to do so."
> 
> ...











						Javid tells NHS England to give private hospitals up to £270m in case of Omicron surge
					

Independent healthcare sector accused of ‘acting as a parasite’ after ‘minimum income guarantee’ deal




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Carvaged (Jan 14, 2022)

Hospital crisis being brutally amplified by systematic Tory failings and mismanagement of the pandemic:



> In Bournemouth, there are seven wards’ worth of people in hospital who shouldn’t be there.
> 
> This amounts to 200 people who are fit to leave the hospital but have nowhere to go because care homes are shut.











						How crowded NHS hospitals are keeping patients in need of operations out | ITV News
					

There are 200 patients at the Royal Bournemouth Hospital who don't need to be there - but they have nowhere to go. | ITV National News




					www.itv.com


----------



## not a trot (Jan 14, 2022)

Carvaged said:


> Hospital crisis being brutally amplified by systematic Tory failings and mismanagement of the pandemic:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wifes elderly aunt was in that position.She's a lifelong Tory voter and believes she would have been treated better if she was an illegal immigrant. Her words, so fuck her.


----------



## Carvaged (Jan 14, 2022)

not a trot said:


> Wifes elderly aunt was in that position.She's a lifelong Tory voter and believes she would have been treated better if she was an illegal immigrant. Her words, so fuck her.



Yeah I've encountered a huge number of people with similarly delusional, self-defeating views and perceptions. It's why conservative parties the world over are able to win elections despite really only representing the interests of a handful of billionaires.


----------



## Edie (Jan 14, 2022)

Carvaged said:


> Yeah I've encountered a huge number of people with similarly delusional, self-defeating views and perceptions. It's why conservative parties the world over are able to win elections despite really only representing the interests of a handful of billionaires.


What absolute patronising nonsense.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 14, 2022)

Edie said:


> What absolute patronising nonsense.



Yeah, let's not be beastly to, um, racists.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 14, 2022)

Carvaged said:


> Yeah I've encountered a huge number of people with similarly delusional, self-defeating views and perceptions. It's why conservative parties the world over are able to win elections despite really only representing the interests of a handful of billionaires.


That and voter suppression and gerrymandering and so on


----------



## IC3D (Jan 14, 2022)

Primary care hospitals resemble something out of the Raj, The consultants at the top and many staff not in a position to take industrial action for better conditions due to immigration status. Many staff are sending money to family abroad relying on it to pay for education. Senior nurses tend to be white overseers. 
Whether it's better pay, work conditions and now mandatory jabs it's very hard for many to speak up.  
English people simply won't do the work and compounds this situation.


----------



## stdP (Jan 14, 2022)

not a trot said:


> Wifes elderly aunt was in that position.She's a lifelong Tory voter and believes she would have been treated better if she was an illegal immigrant. Her words, so fuck her.



My father is in that position and is also a lifelong tory voter. Perplexingly for me, he spent most of his career working for the NHS and spent my entire childhood moaning that they didn't employ enough doctors or nurses but couldn't get enough of middle-management dipshits; somehow this was nothing to do with the tories.

Sadly, the penny is yet to drop but I'm looking forward to the latest iteration of our phone conversations on the topic when I ask how he felt being marooned on a solitary ward in an understaffed hospital for a fortnight, unable to see anyone and being attended only by staff who were too exhausted to even tell him what the weather was like outside whilst Boris and chums partied.


----------



## Carvaged (Jan 15, 2022)

stdP said:


> My father is in that position and is also a lifelong tory voter. Perplexingly for me, he spent most of his career working for the NHS and spent my entire childhood moaning that they didn't employ enough doctors or nurses but couldn't get enough of middle-management dipshits; somehow this was nothing to do with the tories.
> 
> Sadly, the penny is yet to drop but I'm looking forward to the latest iteration of our phone conversations on the topic when I ask how he felt being marooned on a solitary ward in an understaffed hospital for a fortnight, unable to see anyone and being attended only by staff who were too exhausted to even tell him what the weather was like outside whilst Boris and chums partied.



My Daily Express-brainwashed Tory-voting grandmother (bless her soul) got to the point of delusion where she was regaling me in her final years about how great healthcare in the UK had been _prior_ to the NHS. This is when health provision for the poor had been so bad, she had broken her back in her late teens and been unable to afford any treatment and just had to carry on working. Which left her with a pronounced kyphotic/humped back and lifelong health problems as a result.

It's genuinely sad, but you often can't have much of a rational conversation with most conservatives when it comes to healthcare, they remain wedded to their myopic ideological stance(s) and unable or unwilling to accept anything that contradicts it in any serious way.


----------



## stdP (Jan 15, 2022)

Carvaged said:


> My Daily Express-brainwashed Tory-voting grandmother (bless her soul) got to the point of delusion where she was regaling me in her final years about how great healthcare in the UK had been _prior_ to the NHS. This is when health provision for the poor had been so bad, she had broken her back in her late teens and been unable to afford any treatment and just had to carry on working. Which left her with a pronounced kyphotic/humped back and lifelong health problems as a result.
> 
> It's genuinely sad, but you often can't have much of a rational conversation with most conservatives when it comes to healthcare, they remain wedded to their myopic ideological stance(s) and unable or unwilling to accept anything that contradicts it in any serious way.



Somewhat depressingly familiar. I'm not sure if the Express was anywhere near her poison, but my grandmother who was a nurse prior to and during WW2 (that's how she met my grandfather in fact when he got blightied)...and was happy to resign from the newly formed NHS once it started getting clogged up with horrible poor people. Oh so many diseases, not even honourably garnered in war, largely just a mere factor of their poorness. Remained dismissive of the fact that is was shitey living conditions that led to poor health in the first place so was pretty much just culture shock, but I think it shaped her political opinions for the rest of her life.

Remained of the opinion that it was because the NHS was full of poor people and staffed with immigrants and patients that it didn't live up to her standards, even when the ratio changed from 5 nurses looking after 10 people to 2 nurses looking after 20 people.

Incidentally, was against my going to uni in London because it was no longer an english city or some other similar bullshit and nearly had a conniption when I said I'd moved to brixton (full of _those sort_, ungrateful for what they're given; you know what I mean, _not the right kind_ of people). But was somehow entirely happy with not dying at the hands of a bunch of largely imported nurses and care who kept her alive for her last 20 years - even the brown ones; but was never entirely trustful of them not using enough bleach or carbolic soap. Was never entirely sure how anyone ever justified budgets cuts for the NHS and pay cuts for the nurses themselves. It seems to have been in the tory DNA since even before the NHS was invented... but then it's not like _divide et impera_ is anything new under the sun on these shores.


----------



## teqniq (Jan 15, 2022)

Javid is a complete scumbag, who knew?

Sajid Javid Signs Off £1 Billion Private Health Windfall as MPs Sound Alarm – Byline Times


----------



## Shechemite (Jan 21, 2022)

Comrades eh Hundreds of England’s NHS consultants have shares in private clinics


----------



## Edie (Jan 21, 2022)

Shechemite said:


> Comrades eh Hundreds of England’s NHS consultants have shares in private clinics


To be honest I’m actually astonished that _only_ 481 consultants have interests in private healthcare companies. I mean far, far more than that (multiple times that) do private work. Whether that’s private lists, private clinics, court work, locums. _Most_ consultants (? most, ?many) supplement their NHS income and have a break from the insanity and chaos of the NHS doing private work. So do many, by the way, nurses, physios, OTs, chiropodists, and psychotherapists etc.


----------



## felixthecat (Jan 21, 2022)

What Edie said. I thought it would be many more than that.

Private healthcare is becoming increasingly common as so many employers are now offering it as a benefit  - not just American based companies either


----------



## LDC (Jan 21, 2022)

Yeah, same, surprised it's only 481. One of my first days at my last job a locum consultant (recently left the NHS and had come back as locum) proudly got his payslip up on the department computer and boasted how much he got. Can't remember exactly, but it was over £200,000 a year.


----------



## Carvaged (Jan 26, 2022)

This is painful to listen to, it reminds me vividly of the trouble I had getting an ambulance for my Mum when she flipped backwards down the stairs and broke her spine. So many people have had similar experiences though. It's terrifying to think it could be you dying or lying in agony needlessly while our under-resourced, profit-driven privatised ambulance services put you at the back of a 5 hour queue...









						‘I’m dying’ – Son shares desperate 999 calls
					

Akshay Patel’s six calls to North West Ambulance Service on the night of his mum’s death.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## 8ball (Jan 26, 2022)

felixthecat said:


> What Edie said. I thought it would be many more than that.
> 
> Private healthcare is becoming increasingly common as so many employers are now offering it as a benefit  - not just American based companies either



As far as I can tell the private healthcare employers sometimes offer here is nothing like how it works in the US.
It's mostly profit-harvesting, with stubborn, ongoing or expensive conditions being farmed right back to the NHS.


----------



## IC3D (Jan 26, 2022)

A lot of private hospitals lack the expensive equipment the NHS have and set up next to a major hospital to use it. Often the private hospital will have very little in it. A small room and a better menu while you have chemo but over the road for the CT. 
Also the NHS bulk booked to the tune of 400 million a month, capacity for elective admissions during the Pandemic that was barely used and largely wasted while the wards were fighting Covid.


----------



## Edie (Jan 26, 2022)

Next five years are gonna see a _massive_ swing further towards private companies providing NHS services.


----------



## LDC (Jan 26, 2022)

Carvaged said:


> It's terrifying to think it could be you dying or lying in agony needlessly while our under-resourced, profit-driven privatised ambulance services put you at the back of a 5 hour queue...



Explain that please Carvaged. Are they NHS under-resourced services or profit driven privatized services?

Ambulance services are provided by NHS Trusts, and sometimes they do also get private services to work under their area, but afaik all the calls still go through the NHS system, so no privatized ambulance service gets to place a patient anywhere in a queue, it's decided by NHS call handlers on clinical need.


----------



## kalidarkone (Jan 26, 2022)

I admitted and recovered a RALP (Robotic assisted laparoscopic prosectomy) list and then looked after and discharged them the following day.....I discovered through talking to the patients that they were private patients. I'm pissed off because I know the surgeon will be getting £120 per hour + bonus, whilst I'm on £11.50 per hour.

I sometimes do waiting list ( private surgery lists) but get paid accordingly. So feel very ripped off. Will bring this up with my boss and the union.


----------



## LDC (Jan 26, 2022)

Pisses me off when have to deal with private ops that haven't gone right (infection, other complications, general care, worried questions, etc.) as seems it's common that the NHS does that rather than the private company that did the procedure.


----------



## Carvaged (Jan 26, 2022)

IC3D said:


> A lot of private hospitals lack the expensive equipment the NHS have and set up next to a major hospital to use it. Often the private hospital will have very little in it. A small room and a better menu while you have chemo but over the road for the CT.
> Also the NHS bulk booked to the tune of 400 million a month, capacity for elective admissions during the Pandemic that was barely used and largely wasted while the wards were fighting Covid.



In the UK private hospitals and healthcare companies are often little more than parasites piggybacking on existing NHS infrastructure and public investments to cream off some profit. They rarely pay to train their staff (the NHS does most of that), and they cherry-pick the easy profitable things they fancy covering. Many people thinking they're experiencing proper private healthcare because they pay £12 a month to some company they saw advertising on the TV have no clue.



LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Explain that please Carvaged. Are they NHS under-resourced services or profit driven privatized services?
> 
> Ambulance services are provided by NHS Trusts, and sometimes they do also get private services to work under their area, but afaik all the calls still go through the NHS system, so no privatized ambulance service gets to place a patient anywhere in a queue, it's decided by NHS call handlers on clinical need.



The provision of ambulance services are outsourced to private companies in many areas, following the 2012 Lansley reforms (though they'd started the process back in 2010 in certain regions, re-hiring staff on terrible contracts etc, causing many to quit). This means the trusts no longer have direct control - they're merely 'buying in' a service, and many are frankly a shambles. Coperforma is one particularly notorious operator, owned by the billionaire John Porter. It doesn't really matter that you're speaking to an NHS call handler if the private company providing the ambulances hasn't properly maintained their equipment, lacks ambulances, and hired too few employees in order to save money and boost their profit margin.


----------



## LDC (Jan 26, 2022)

Carvaged said:


> The provision of ambulance services are outsourced to private companies in many areas, following the 2012 Lansley reforms (though they'd started the process back in 2010 in certain regions, re-hiring staff on terrible contracts etc, causing many to quit). This means the trusts no longer have direct control - they're merely 'buying in' a service, and many are frankly a shambles. Coperforma is one particularly notorious operator, owned by the billionaire John Porter. It doesn't really matter that you're speaking to an NHS call handler if the private company providing the ambulances hasn't properly maintained their equipment, lacks ambulances, and hired too few employees in order to save money and boost their profit margin.



Yes, I know that, and it's not all, but some of the provision, it varies area to area massively. Yorkshire service always refused for years to outsource any for example whereas in London it's much more commonplace. But either way no private ambulance service is putting anyone at the back of a queue as you said in your post, and what I was questioning.


----------



## kalidarkone (Jan 26, 2022)

The only difference I can see between the service that private patients get is that they are seen and have their procedure very quickly and do not have to wait.


----------



## Carvaged (Jan 26, 2022)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Yes, I know that, and it's not all, but some of the provision, it varies area to area massively. Yorkshire service always refused for years to outsource any for example whereas in London it's much more commonplace. But either way no private ambulance service is putting anyone at the back of a queue as you said in your post, and what I was questioning.



Ok fair enough, but that wasn't really what I was trying to convey. What I meant was you're at the back of a 5 hour queue because when the privately owned and operated service is systematically dysfunctional, underprovisioned, ill-maintained and there aren't enough crews thanks to cost cutting and mismanagement, there's not a lot your NHS call handler can do. Supply is not meeting demand, and it's unlikely to improve much given that the outsourcing model they applied when privatising the service leaves them more concerned about profit at the expense of patient needs. One is naturally in conflict with the other.


----------



## LDC (Jan 26, 2022)

Cheers for reply. As there's so much to criticise and point out as problems with some aspects of the NHS I think it's important not to mix it up with tabloid-type inaccuracies that just add to the scaremongering and general beating it gets.


----------



## ouirdeaux (Jan 26, 2022)

There wouldn't be five-hour waits for ambulances if dickheads who are able to get to hospital on their own -- or who don't need to go to hospital at all -- stopped calling for them.


----------



## LDC (Jan 26, 2022)

ouirdeaux said:


> There wouldn't be five-hour waits for ambulances if dickheads who are able to get to hospital on their own -- or who don't need to go to hospital at all -- stopped calling for them.



Oooohhhh, I could say _a lot _about that!


----------



## Edie (Jan 26, 2022)

Carvaged said:


> In the UK private hospitals and healthcare companies are often little more than parasites piggybacking on existing NHS infrastructure and public investments to cream off some profit. They rarely pay to train their staff (the NHS does most of that), and they cherry-pick the easy profitable things they fancy covering. Many people thinking they're experiencing proper private healthcare because they pay £12 a month to some company they saw advertising on the TV have no clue.
> 
> 
> 
> The provision of ambulance services are outsourced to private companies in many areas, following the 2012 Lansley reforms (though they'd started the process back in 2010 in certain regions, re-hiring staff on terrible contracts etc, causing many to quit). This means the trusts no longer have direct control - they're merely 'buying in' a service, and many are frankly a shambles. Coperforma is one particularly notorious operator, owned by the billionaire John Porter. It doesn't really matter that you're speaking to an NHS call handler if the private company providing the ambulances hasn't properly maintained their equipment, lacks ambulances, and hired too few employees in order to save money and boost their profit margin.


Wow I didn’t know that. I wonder what percent of nhs services are currently delivered via private companies.


----------



## ouirdeaux (Jan 26, 2022)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Oooohhhh, I could say _a lot _about that!



Go on, it should be fun.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 26, 2022)

Edie said:


> Wow I didn’t know that. I wonder what percent of nhs services are currently delivered via private companies.


lots, if my experience is anything to go by. several years ago i had to go for a couple of scans and my doctor sent me to a private hospital in barnet for one and to an apparently private clinic in kentish town for the second. i was really taken aback because i thought i'd be going to the local nhs hospital


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 26, 2022)

ouirdeaux said:


> Go on, it should be fun.


or at least cathartic


----------



## kalidarkone (Jan 26, 2022)

Yesterday there were 100 patients in A&E and 21 ambulances waiting  outside, unable to get their patients in ......or pick up anyone else needing one. 
So many people are going to die this winter because of the current situation.


----------



## Sprocket. (Jan 26, 2022)

Speaking from recent experience over the last decade. I have had several CT scans and MRIs at private hospitals or at private facilities within NHS hospitals. 
Recently at Sheffield especially as one of the major hospitals was having extensive work done on their radiography dept, including an additional CT scanner installed. 
But while this was happening the other major hospital had a fire which put one of their scanners out of action for months. So the private sector profited greatly.
I am currently waiting for a date for my three monthly scan due the first week in February, I anticipate hearing a few days beforehand and possibly back at one of the private locations due to the backlog and time restraints.


----------



## Sprocket. (Jan 26, 2022)

kalidarkone said:


> Yesterday there were 100 patients in A&E and 21 ambulances waiting  outside, unable to get their patients in ......or pick up anyone else needing one.
> So many people are going to die this winter because of the current situation.


This appalling situation has been building for years, services cut to the bone (no pun). Underfunding and staff leaving due to burn out. 
I have nothing but the utmost praise for the staff at the three hospitals I regularly attend and it makes me both sad and livid to see what these wonderful people have to tolerate day in, day out.


----------



## LDC (Jan 26, 2022)

As I have said before, funding is a big part of it for sure, but not the only complicated issue that's causing these problems.


----------



## LDC (Jan 26, 2022)

ouirdeaux said:


> There wouldn't be five-hour waits for ambulances if dickheads who are able to get to hospital on their own -- or who don't need to go to hospital at all -- stopped calling for them.



It's boring stuff I've said lots here and there tbh, but anyway...

What you is said is true, but without qualification is just patient blaming individualist stuff that leads nowhere helpful.

Very few (probably nobody really) calls an ambulance cos they're just a dickhead, it's a problem that has arisen for a mix of complicated long term social/economic/political reasons... isolated living situations, breakdown of the family, atomized previously together communities, people lacking basic health knowledge and self-care, worsening general mental health (especially anxiety, partly internet self-diagnosis fueled), poor education, lack of ability to access more appropriate care, etc etc.

So yes, people calling ambulances for a stubbed toe (or something similar) happens loads, but mostly it's not as simple as them being dickheads (although I have been known to roll my eyes and sigh exasperatedly on occasion...).


----------



## ouirdeaux (Jan 26, 2022)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Very few (probably nobody really) calls an ambulance cos they're just a dickhead, it's a problem that has arisen for a mix of complicated long term social/economic/political reasons... isolated living situations, breakdown of the family, atomized previously together communities, people lacking basic health knowledge and self-care, worsening general mental health (especially anxiety, partly internet self-diagnosis fueled), poor education, lack of ability to access more appropriate care, etc etc.



True, but you could say the same of pretty much any sort of antisocial behaviour. Blaming the individual without addressing the cause is pointless, but we need a more effective way of dealing with the problem. London has a vastly disproportionate rate of ambulance callouts, even though it's far easier to make one's own way to a hospital in a city with a variety of transport options than it is in the back of beyond.

Also, if you're working in a hospital, you presumably only come into contact with those the crew have brought in (not talking about the patients who just rock up, obviously). Those who call for an ambulance in order to have a wank in front of paramedics, for example, are a sub-group who rarely get taken anywhere, apart from possibly to a cell for the night if they're worse than usual. If you can't call them dickheads, who merits the word?


----------



## nottsgirl (Jan 26, 2022)

Looks like we’re not only going to sit by, we’re going to join in. Yes there are some ways people can be encouraged to take more responsibility for their health and collective resources but I really don’t think that’s the main issue here. And part of why it is, is other parts of the safety net being destroyed.


----------



## ouirdeaux (Jan 26, 2022)

You're right that it's not the main issue. But it's all so depressing.


----------



## Edie (Jan 26, 2022)

nottsgirl said:


> Looks like we’re not only going to sit by, we’re going to join in. Yes there are some ways people can be encouraged to take more responsibility for their health and collective resources but I really don’t think that’s the main issue here. And part of why it is, is other parts of the safety net being destroyed.


I think you’re agreeing with LynnDoyleCooper


----------



## LDC (Jan 26, 2022)

ouirdeaux said:


> True, but you could say the same of pretty much any sort of antisocial behaviour. Blaming the individual without addressing the cause is pointless, but we need a more effective way of dealing with the problem. London has a vastly disproportionate rate of ambulance callouts, even though it's far easier to make one's own way to a hospital in a city with a variety of transport options than it is in the back of beyond.
> 
> Also, if you're working in a hospital, you presumably only come into contact with those the crew have brought in (not talking about the patients who just rock up, obviously). Those who call for an ambulance in order to have a wank in front of paramedics, for example, are a sub-group who rarely get taken anywhere, apart from possibly to a cell for the night if they're worse than usual. If you can't call them dickheads, who merits the word?



I mean you can call them dickheads, feel free, but it doesn't fix anything does it? (And with that particular example 'dickhead' isn't really appropriate anyway.) And if that's all you do then actually it might just mean you're blaming individuals.

There's all sorts of reasons London has a higher rate of call-outs (assuming you're right, I've not looked for the stats), but is the reason London has a higher percentage of dickheads in it, or is it more complicated than that?


----------



## 8ball (Jan 26, 2022)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> I mean you can call them dickheads, feel free, but it doesn't fix anything does it? (And with that particular example 'dickhead' isn't really appropriate anyway.) And if that's all you do then actually it might just mean you're blaming individuals.
> 
> There's all sorts of reasons London has a higher rate of call-outs (assuming you're right, I've not looked for the stats), but is the reason London has a higher percentage of dickheads in it, or is it more complicated than that?



Seems like a job for Occam’s razor…


----------



## ouirdeaux (Jan 26, 2022)

It's immensely more complicated than that, of course. And even the figures are of limited use, as they don't distinguish between a 90-year-old in the arse end of Wallington and a 20-year-old literally across the street from a hospital. Ignore me, I'm just rambling.


----------



## Shechemite (Jan 26, 2022)

ouirdeaux said:


> There wouldn't be five-hour waits for ambulances if dickheads who are able to get to hospital on their own -- or who don't need to go to hospital at all -- stopped calling for them.



Relax, the asocials are being dealt with. Seek crisis care too often and you go to jail










						Dad slams services after son's suicide
					

Oliver Cooper, 38, suffered from a number of complex mental health conditions and frequently asked for help




					www.devonlive.com


----------



## 8ball (Jan 26, 2022)

Shechemite said:


> Relax, the asocials are being dealt with. Seek crisis care too often and you go to jail
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yes, I’m sure that’s not misrepresenting anyone’s stance in the slightest…


----------



## BristolEcho (Jan 27, 2022)

8ball said:


> Yes, I’m sure that’s not misrepresenting anyone’s stance in the slightest…


I wasn't going to reply as think LynnDoyleCooper said everything, but I do find attacking individuals and labeling people dickheads to be unhelpful and it helps create an environment for shit like this:









						STOPSIM
					

Mental Health Is Not A Crime




					stopsim.co.uk
				




It's also the attitude that is putting people off contacting GP's and hospitals because they don't want to waste people's time.


----------



## 8ball (Jan 27, 2022)

BristolEcho said:


> It's also the attitude that is putting people off contacting GP's and hospitals because they don't want to waste people's time.



Any evidence that people with genuine emergency needs are put off from accessing healthcare because other people disapprove of cunts who call an ambulance due to a split condom or bruised finger?


----------



## BristolEcho (Jan 27, 2022)

8ball said:


> Any evidence that people with genuine emergency needs are put off from accessing healthcare because other people disapprove of cunts who call an ambulance due to a split condom or bruised finger?


I didn't necessarily say emergencies, however I know through my work that people do delay seeing GP's and going to hospital when they should because of the above attitude. Obviously that's not fully researched peer reviewed evidence, but I come into contact with lots of vulnerable people and quite often have to direct them towards other health services.


----------



## 8ball (Jan 27, 2022)

BristolEcho said:


> I didn't necessarily say emergencies, however I know through my work that people do delay seeing GP's and going to hospital when they should because of the above attitude. Obviously that's not fully researched peer reviewed evidence, but I come into contact with lots of vulnerable people and quite often have to direct them towards other health services.



I’m not sure what you mean by “above attitude” now.  Seems there have always been people, many of them older, who “don’t want to bother the doctor” with stuff.
People need to know when certain services are needed and I agree that there is a balance to be struck, with an emphasis on people accessing necessary care.  People also need to know that ambulances are for very serious situations and that there could be dire consequences for others if they, or the call handlers, are accessed frivolously.
And then, unfortunately, I think there are some people who just don’t give a shit.


----------



## platinumsage (Jan 29, 2022)

agricola said:


> It's all the fault of GPs, apparently.



For this reason, Javid apparently now wants to nationalise them.


----------



## IC3D (Jan 29, 2022)

I'd say a lack of community nursing  capacity and trained domiciliary carers means a lot of elderly get bluelighted as they are probably told to call 999 causing pressue on primary and ambulance services.
Call outs for hypos could be avoided just by training people in the community. Its more complex than that but it's all well and good saying treat people at home but means norhing without investment.


----------



## Edie (Feb 2, 2022)

An experience of the new world order of phone/internet consultation: I work in the NHS, and I have RA. I get given a phone appointment between 9-1pm. Obviously I’m not going to take an entire morning off because of a ten minute phone appointment. So instead I go to work, not knowing when it’s going to be, and start the ward round. Get the call, have to take it standing in a patient toilet/shower room (because obviously there’s literally no other private space because the only private room- the relatives room- is in constant use).

Now my RA hasn’t been good of late, quite a bit of fatigue and joint pain I’ve been powering through. Plus my mums dying of this disease, so it’s an emotive issue. So I end up getting a bit upset in the effing toilet discussing steroid depots. I then have to go straight back into ward round (except I’m hiding typing this).

For all the gains of E-consultation (no travel, quicker, cheaper, triage etc) there’s much lost. And something lost is the patient having both the time and physical _space_ to talk about and process illness and healthcare. Anyway, those are my thoughts.


----------



## BristolEcho (Feb 2, 2022)

Absolutely. Someone I know also had issues with this recently and I felt it was pretty bad that GP:s are still not giving actual times for phone calls. (assuming this was a GP)


----------



## Artaxerxes (Feb 9, 2022)

Ugh.


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 9, 2022)

Taking responsibility!


----------



## Sprocket. (Feb 9, 2022)

Artaxerxes said:


> Ugh.



Fabulous, so by the time the patient realises they have a recurrence it will probably have metastasised and gone for a walk about through their lymph system.  This either increases the cost of treatment or hastens the death of the patient.
Effective reduction of waiting lists.


----------



## Ming (Feb 10, 2022)

Sprocket. said:


> Fabulous, so by the time the patient realises they have a recurrence it will probably have metastasised and gone for a walk about through their lymph system.  This either increases the cost of treatment or hastens the death of the patient.
> Effective reduction of waiting lists.


Well that’s how they think (as long as it doesn’t apply to them or their loved ones obviously). Cut costs so we can lower taxes on the wealthy. Surplus population, ‘let the bodies pile high’. We’re in the Caligula stage of the Tory party.


----------



## AnnO'Neemus (Feb 10, 2022)

Ming said:


> Well that’s how they think (as long as it doesn’t apply to them or their loved ones obviously). Cut costs so we can lower taxes on the wealthy. Surplus population, ‘let the bodies pile high’. We’re in the Caligula stage of the Tory party.


The precursor to the Holocaust was the Aktion T4 programme. I fear we're creeping slowly and inexorably towards that kind of scenario. Some Tories have openly said that disabled children don't deserve to live. 









						Aktion T4 - Wikipedia
					






					en.m.wikipedia.org


----------



## ouirdeaux (Feb 10, 2022)

AnnO'Neemus said:


> Some Tories have openly said that disabled children don't deserve to live.



Who has said what?


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 10, 2022)

Ming said:


> Well that’s how they think (as long as it doesn’t apply to them or their loved ones obviously). Cut costs so we can lower taxes on the wealthy. Surplus population, ‘let the bodies pile high’. We’re in the Caligula stage of the Tory party.


here's looking forward to the claudius stage then.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Feb 10, 2022)

Ming said:


> We’re in the Caligula stage of the Tory party.


Question remains whether it's the Tinto Brass or Bob Guccione cut though


----------



## Ming (Feb 10, 2022)

DaveCinzano said:


> Question remains whether it's the Tinto Brass or Bob Guccione cut though


It's never pretty.


----------



## gosub (Feb 25, 2022)

It's already fubar'd.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 25, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> is the gist of the thread thus far 'yes'?


i see nothing to make me change my opinion


----------



## teqniq (Mar 14, 2022)




----------



## Chilli.s (Mar 14, 2022)

stinks of corruption 

a stupid agreement


----------



## teqniq (Jun 5, 2022)

Please take a sec to read this thread:


----------



## Chilli.s (Jun 5, 2022)

Thats fuckin shocking. And why it sticks in my craw when I hear politicians saying how hard they work. Dr Woodall is properly working hard and doing the most important jobs, when he is worried, we all should be worried. 

Quotes:

15 mins downtime in 12 hr continuous working.

End of shift 0001, should be standby for 9 hours, but told as no GP to cover population of 70,000 in neighbouring area, would need to prepare for callout

Back to me, and a tangent:

When we spend the weekend glorifying how well the richest woman in the country has done it annoys me that she is unwilling to put her hand in her pocket and make a difference to this rapidly worsening situation that her subjects are facing


----------



## teqniq (Jun 15, 2022)

Javid the complete and utter scumbag:









						NHS funding could be cut as Javid says there's 'no quick cure' for A&E crisis
					

Conservative governments have historically taken the political decision not to fund the NHS to the level seen in similar developed nations. Sajid Javid suggested NHS funding must be scaled back




					www.mirror.co.uk


----------



## teqniq (Jun 30, 2022)

Well there's a thing, no shit Sherlock etc...









						NHS privatisation drive linked to rise in avoidable deaths, study suggests
					

Outsourcing accelerated by Lansley’s shakeup in 2012 linked to drop in care quality in landmark review




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## PR1Berske (Jul 24, 2022)

From the Guardian




> Charge patients for hospital stays to help fund NHS, says report​Health experts warn move would ‘depart from founding principles of a tax-funded public service’
> 
> Denis Campbell Health policy editor
> Sun 24 Jul 2022 18.00 BST
> ...





> Smith, the former chair of the East Kent acute hospital trust, has set out his ideas in a new book published by the thinktank RadixUK. Its trustees include the ex-Conservative health secretary Andrew Lansley and the Labour MP Stephen Kinnock.





> “I think the public would be prepared to pay some additional charges,” said Smith, who has also served on the boards of the Great Ormond Street and Imperial College Healthcare NHS trusts in London. Means-testing would ensure the poor were not affected unfairly, he added.
> People should pay a fee of £8 for every day they are in hospital receiving medical care or undergoing rehabilitation, up to a maximum of 28 days a year, added Smith, who said his idea was based on the system in Germany, where patients are charged €10 a night.
> Advertisement
> 
> ...





> “Charging people to cover part of the cost of a hospital stay would be a fundamental departure from the founding principles of the NHS and show that the longstanding consensus on a tax-funded public service model of healthcare has been truly abandoned,” said Puntis.





> The government should instead generate more money for the NHS through capital gains tax, corporation tax and taxing private wealth, financial speculation and tax-dodging, he added.
> Smith’s ideas come days after the head of the Royal College of GPs warned that family doctor services are under such strain that patients may have to start paying for them, in the same way that most already pay to see a dentist.


----------



## teqniq (Jul 24, 2022)

Fuck the fuck off.


----------



## alex_ (Jul 24, 2022)

PR1Berske said:


> From the Guardian



If only we had some system or way for getting people to pay for services everyone uses.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jul 24, 2022)

So a week's statutory sick pay is what, under 100? And over half of that has just gone on this new 'needing medical care' tax. Fuck.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jul 24, 2022)

Although tbh, fuck the guardian for even plugging this think tank bullshit. The story here is basically _person paid to say 'lets fuck the NHS to death' says, 'let's fuck the NHS to death'._


----------



## Ming (Jul 24, 2022)

PR1Berske said:


> From the Guardian


To be fair to the Tories (you won’t hear that from me very often) they have been saying their intentions for years. 









						David Cameron's adviser says health reform is a chance to make big profits
					

Kitchen cabinet aide says charging improves service and NHS should be shown 'no mercy' in drive for reform




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## 8ball (Jul 25, 2022)

24 pages in and thread still doesn’t have a poll.


----------



## Chilli.s (Jul 25, 2022)

Profits is just what got us into this mess.

Agency staff, touted as a super way to have all the staff that could ever be dreamed of, all ready to go at just a phonecall, workers would have a fine choice of better paid roles.   Turns out that putting more layers of management into labour supply only makes money for the agencies and fucks up existing workers.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jul 25, 2022)

Chilli.s said:


> Profits is just what got us into this mess.
> 
> Agency staff, touted as a super way to have all the staff that could ever be dreamed of, all ready to go at just a phonecall, workers would have a fine choice of better paid roles.   Turns out that putting more layers of management into labour supply only makes money for the agencies and fucks up existing workers.



“If we under pay permanent staff and over pay consultants or emergency staff to cover absolutely nothing will go wrong”

Unsurprisingly that just means all your perm staff quit to do temp roles elsewhere. Especially when your not investing in training or giving them good working conditions


----------



## Chilli.s (Jul 25, 2022)

Artaxerxes said:


> “If we under pay permanent staff and over pay consultants or emergency staff to cover absolutely nothing will go wrong”
> 
> Unsurprisingly that just means all your perm staff quit to do temp roles elsewhere. Especially when your not investing in training or giving them good working conditions


Yeah, its those misty eyed management theories that seem to include the all unions are bad idea too. Wasnt it Thatcher that sold this crock of shyte to us all


----------



## kalidarkone (Jul 25, 2022)

Added into the mix now is the huge over seas nursing programme. Those nurses are being absolutely shafted- it's like Windrush all over again.

 They are promised wondrous opportunities here in the UK but the reality is that a lot of them are working at an unregistered band 4 pay while waiting to tale and pass their OSCES that allows them a registration pin and to have a band 5 wage. 

Certainly in Bristol They are struggling to find affordable places to live and general competition for housing + racism means they are unable to bring their children/ partners over, as they start off in a room in a HMO.

It's all well and good to invite people from other countries over to increase the NHS staffing levels...but you have to provide some kind of infrastructure.


It's just fucked.


----------



## teqniq (Jul 27, 2022)

Probably not massive news to anyone here:


----------



## teqniq (Jul 30, 2022)

Article from June 2020 but only just come across it via Twitter. Absolute scum:









						Tory MP husband of Test and Trace chief Dido Harding linked to anti-NHS group
					

EXCLUSIVE: Tory MP and former minister John Penrose has joined the advisory board of 1828, which calls for the NHS to be replaced by an insurance system and for Public Health England to be scrapped




					www.mirror.co.uk


----------



## Chilli.s (Jul 30, 2022)

They are so ready to get stuck into the potential profit


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 30, 2022)

teqniq said:


> Article from June but only just come across it via Twitter. Absolute scum:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


June 2020


----------



## teqniq (Jul 30, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> June 2020


corrected thanks


----------



## Thistlewaite (Aug 9, 2022)

The nurses no longer care because they can't afford to care or even engage with the sheer workload, bad working conditions and lord knows what else. 
However when a person is screaming out in pain and none of the staff care, it really does turn your stomach.
Triple the waiting time for sick patients to be seen, insane waiting times and constant cancellations are the norm. 13 hours is usually the bare minimum wait time.  

if I could afford private, I think I would sadly. The Tories therefore win. 

We are such a weak willed country, no wonder they take the mick out of public services and key workers, etc.


----------



## kalidarkone (Aug 10, 2022)

Thistlewaite said:


> The nurses no longer care because they can't afford to care or even engage with the sheer workload, bad working conditions and lord knows what else.
> However when a person is screaming out in pain and none of the staff care, it really does turn your stomach.
> Triple the waiting time for sick patients to be seen, insane waiting times and constant cancellations are the norm. 13 hours is usually the bare minimum wait time.
> 
> ...


Sorry you have had a shit experience.
I care and my colleagues care.

All going private ensures is that you are treated quickly. 

The UK is short-staffed in healthcare and going private does not change that.  Most of  the NHS nurses I work with also do agency shifts and work at private hospitals.

There are certain surgical procedures such as Radical Laparascopic prosectomy that require specialist equipment that only the NHS hospital has, meaning that private patients come to an NHS hospital and are treated by NHS staff.

Yes it's completely broken and recruiting is not the issue it's retaining staff that is the problem.

You are absolutely bang on regarding waiting times. 

Yesterday it was me (unregistered) and two nurses looking after two theatre lists, that's admission and recovery. Shoulders, hip replacements and knee replacements. Only one patient got moved on to a ward. The other in  patients had to stay with us, we had to continue caring for them whilst still receiving patients with an airway from theatre (so can not leave them till its out). Luckily we had a few daycases who were discharged. 

Also helping is relatives being allowed in again as they help ease the patients in most cases.

But absolutely shocking that anyone should be left in pain and I hope you have complained! Please complain.


----------



## Thistlewaite (Aug 10, 2022)

kalidarkone said:


> Sorry you have had a shit experience.
> I care and my colleagues care.
> 
> All going private ensures is that you are treated quickly.
> ...


Hey there. 

First of all, may I say what a thoughtful and well explained post this was.

Sadly, it was a negative experience because the nurses were so overworked they had no time to really "care." 
As for the man in complete pain, I imagine he did complain. i hope he did anyway. 

Yes, I am aware about the private care sectors flaws because of a television drama called "This Is Going To Hurt." However the only reason i would want private is literally for the waiting time. I expect a 4 - 5 hour wait but over 12 hours to be treated is horrendous. 

Respect to all you do for the country and under such difficulties too, I can relate somewhat. Sorry if I sound hypocritical but I do respect the NHS and all staff that work there on principle but I am terrified of being ill because they wouldn't be able to see me or care for me at all. I'm also scared for my family becoming ill as no one would really care if they were left in the waiting room for (non ward) for over 12 hours, suffering. Worst case scenario is death due to not being seen. That is literally my lasting impression of the NHS now.


----------



## kalidarkone (Aug 10, 2022)

Thistlewaite said:


> Hey there.
> 
> First of all, may I say what a thoughtful and well explained post this was.
> 
> ...


I never thought in a million years I would say this.....but if I had the means and needed urgent healthcare then I would 100 % go private in order to bypass the flawed appointment system within primary and acute care. 

I am really aware of the lack of basic communication with patients next of kin and for this reason I make it my business ( despite it not strictly being my job, but AFAIK it comes under the remit of patient care and advocating for the patient and their interests) so for example when I know patients are waiting  in reception, but we have no room for them I let them know and keep them updated on where they are on the surgery list  how longs it's going to be, if anything changes. And I always ask them if there is anyone they want me to call to let them know know that they are out of  theatre. 

Despite staff shortages and volume of patients basic pastoral care should be in place. It's not hard to do.


----------



## Thistlewaite (Aug 10, 2022)

kalidarkone said:


> I never thought in a million years I would say this.....but if I had the means and needed urgent healthcare then I would 100 % go private in order to bypass the flawed appointment system within primary and acute care.
> 
> I am really aware of the lack of basic communication with patients next of kin and for this reason I make it my business ( despite it not strictly being my job, but AFAIK it comes under the remit of patient care and advocating for the patient and their interests) so for example when I know patients are waiting  in reception, but we have no room for them I let them know and keep them updated on where they are on the surgery list  how longs it's going to be, if anything changes. And I always ask them if there is anyone they want me to call to let them know know that they are out of  theatre.
> 
> Despite staff shortages and volume of patients basic pastoral care should be in place. It's not hard to do.


Bless you.

You know something, it was awful to wait iver half a day but basic communication and pastoral comfort would have made a huge impression on me. Please remember that as patients, I assure you IT MEANS SO MUCH.
Keep being utterly amazing.

I felt like cattle or like I was at the vets waiting to be diagnosed then put down.


----------



## teqniq (Aug 29, 2022)

Shameless propaganda from the Times here:

Britain falls out of love with the NHS: poll reveals three in five now expect delays


----------



## kalidarkone (Aug 29, 2022)

teqniq said:


> Shameless propaganda from the Times here:
> 
> Britain falls out of love with the NHS: poll reveals three in five now expect delays


I'm not a fan of the Times, but I think the article is spot on. I can't argue with anything it's saying is going on.

The short term solutions by themselves are bollocks though and nothing more then a sticking plaster.


----------



## alex_ (Aug 29, 2022)

teqniq said:


> Shameless propaganda from the Times here:
> 
> Britain falls out of love with the NHS: poll reveals three in five now expect delays



It’s a misleading story vs the body of the article which if tldr - most of the country thinks the government has fucked up the nhs.


----------



## teqniq (Nov 4, 2022)

Ashcroft in Tory scum shocker. Eh would have guessed?









						Medacs: how to make money from a run-down NHS
					

SOLOMON HUGHES illuminates the dark art of Tory trickery in the health service: cut public spending, then pay major party donors like Lord Ashcroft to fill the gaps with their private medical companies




					morningstaronline.co.uk


----------



## teqniq (Nov 20, 2022)

One dogged coroner, four needless deaths and a stark conclusion: the NHS is broken


----------



## teqniq (Nov 26, 2022)

'They said they had no space': Family says boy, 5, died after he was sent home from hospital


----------



## 8ball (Nov 26, 2022)

teqniq said:


> 'They said they had no space': Family says boy, 5, died after he was sent home from hospital



Going to exactly to plan.


----------



## Karl Masks (Nov 26, 2022)

I don't think they care anymore. Possibly this is the Tories at their most dangerous, if we believe they are resigned to electoral defeat. They just don't give a shit about fixing this. Not even to fatten up for sale


----------



## PR1Berske (Dec 11, 2022)




----------



## alex_ (Dec 11, 2022)

I agree with a lot more of what he says - the main point is that more money should mean more output.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Dec 11, 2022)

alex_ said:


> I agree with a lot more of what he says - the main point is that more money should mean more output.



The GP crisis could be helped by no fees for medical students, accommodation provided, and a bursary.

In return, doctors work as GPs (at the normal pay rates) for three years before moving on to specialise.

A big increase in Nurse Practitioner, Advanced Nurse Practitioner numbers. 90% of patients could be more than adequately treated by NPs.


----------



## alex_ (Dec 11, 2022)

Sasaferrato said:


> The GP crisis could be helped by no fees for medical students, accommodation provided, and a bursary.
> 
> In return, doctors work as GPs (at the normal pay rates) for three years before moving on to specialise.
> 
> A big increase in Nurse Practitioner, Advanced Nurse Practitioner numbers. 90% of patients could be more than adequately treated by NPs.



Charging student nurses to study and removing bursaries is another insane thing the current lot have done.

Would love to know what % of student loans they think they will get back from nurses. I bet it’s not worth the hassle.


----------



## alex_ (Dec 11, 2022)

Sasaferrato said:


> A big increase in Nurse Practitioner, Advanced Nurse Practitioner numbers. 90% of patients could be more than adequately treated by NPs.



I wonder why the BMA could be against this ?

Alex


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 11, 2022)

alex_ said:


> I agree with a lot more of what he says - the main point is that more money should mean more output.



I must have missed the bit when there was more money.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 11, 2022)

Sasaferrato said:


> The GP crisis could be helped by no fees for medical students, accommodation provided, and a bursary.
> 
> In return, doctors work as GPs (at the normal pay rates) for three years before moving on to specialise.
> 
> A big increase in Nurse Practitioner, Advanced Nurse Practitioner numbers. 90% of patients could be more than adequately treated by NPs.


But 90% of patients being seen by less qualified practitioners sounds like a step back from what we had until very recently?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 11, 2022)

PR1Berske said:


>




In unrelated news...


----------



## LDC (Dec 11, 2022)

Sasaferrato said:


> The GP crisis could be helped by no fees for medical students, accommodation provided, and a bursary.
> 
> In return, doctors work as GPs (at the normal pay rates) for three years before moving on to specialise.
> 
> A big increase in Nurse Practitioner, Advanced Nurse Practitioner numbers. 90% of patients could be more than adequately treated by NPs.



It's Advanced Clinical Practitioners (ACPs) not ANPs as they come from a range of previous medical backgrounds and then do a Masters level course of study, and the NHS long term plan is expanding that part of the workforce.

The training to be a GP is a specialism though, and takes years, so it doesn't work the way you suggest.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 11, 2022)

I mean...



> “One of the things that I do find frustrating, given that we have committed to more staff, I cannot understand why the BMA is so hostile to the idea that with more staff must come better standards for patients,” he said, accusing the union of “living on a different planet”.



He seems to be living on a different planet where the NHS has somehow got more staff, instead of the chronic shortage of staff it actually has.


----------



## LDC (Dec 11, 2022)

brogdale said:


> But 90% of patients being seen by less qualified practitioners sounds like a step back from what we had until very recently?



That's not the right way to look at it. It's not about being 'less qualified', it's about being able to get appropriate medical care when you need it. There's a huge expansion in roles like ACPs and Physican Associates across the health service. That is so not even on the list of things to be bothered about.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Dec 11, 2022)

alex_ said:


> I wonder why the BMA could be against this ?
> 
> Alex


I wonder.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Dec 11, 2022)

LDC said:


> It's Advanced Clinical Practitioners (ACPs) not ANPs as they come from a range of previous medical backgrounds and then do a Masters level course of study, and the NHS long term plan is expanding that part of the workforce.
> 
> The training to be a GP is a specialism though, and takes years, so it doesn't work the way you suggest.


It Scotland (where I live), it is Nurse Practitioners and Advanced Nurse Practitioners.


----------



## LDC (Dec 11, 2022)

Sasaferrato said:


> It Scotland (where I live), it is Nurse Practitioners and Advanced Nurse Practitioners.



It's changing, you're just behind!  

ANP is still used here in England as well in some places, usually by nurses who are ANPs and are a bit resistant to the change. But the move is towards ACPs across the board, and they will get central professional registration as such at some point - currently they hold their professional registration with their prior professional body (NMC, HCPC, etc.).


----------



## Sasaferrato (Dec 11, 2022)

alex_ said:


> Charging student nurses to study and removing bursaries is another insane thing the current lot have done.
> 
> Would love to know what % of student loans they think they will get back from nurses. I bet it’s not worth the hassle.



They did restore the bursary, but at a lower rate.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Dec 11, 2022)

LDC said:


> It's changing, you're just behind!
> 
> ANP is still used here in England as well in some places, usually by nurses who are ANPs and are a bit resistant to the change. But the move is towards ACPs across the board, and they will get central professional registration as such at some point - currently they hold their professional registration with their prior professional body (NMC, HCPC, etc.).



Could you cite a source for that?


----------



## Shechemite (Dec 11, 2022)

You’re not going to get accountability within healthcare (hillsborough law anyone?) without taking on doctors, nor can you logically or effectively argue for universal, solidaristic and emancipatory care provision without at least at first acknowledging the absence of accountability for medical professionals and the culture and practice in the medical profession of seeing certain human beings as just too mad, bad or just plain feeble to warrant health (or any other sort of) care

The failure of the left to grasp this makes it easier for right wing politicians like streeting to push  ‘efficiency’ and privatisation. Why defend the nhs/BMA when they’re a bunch of eugenist arse-covering bastards? Why have universal care provision when even medics behave as if some lives don’t matter?


----------



## LDC (Dec 11, 2022)

Sasaferrato said:


> Could you cite a source for that?



What bit of it?


----------



## LDC (Dec 11, 2022)

The problem that bits of the left (Labour especially) has with the NHS and health is that to 'fix it' is impossible without changing how people work and live and how society is organised.

Anything short of that is inevitably going to be a 'sticking plaster' solution.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Dec 11, 2022)

LDC said:


> What bit of it?


All of it. I've looked online, and can find absolutely nothing to suggest that the nomenclature in Scotland is changing.


----------



## LDC (Dec 11, 2022)

It's changing as people are working as ACPs who have never been nurses so cannot be ANPs but I'll see if I can find something more official though. It's an old title that's not helpful at describing the role, hence it changing in England. I was told it was changing in Scotland as well, be silly if it didn't given it doesn't reflect reality.

Here's what HEE say What is advanced clinical practice?


----------



## alex_ (Dec 11, 2022)

SpookyFrank said:


> I mean...
> 
> 
> 
> He seems to be living on a different planet where the NHS has somehow got more staff, instead of the chronic shortage of staff it actually has.



You know Wes streeting isn’t in government and is talking about the BMA objecting to an opposition policy ?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 11, 2022)

alex_ said:


> You know Wes streeting isn’t in government and is talking about the BMA objecting to an opposition policy ?



I know he's not supposed to be supporting the government and opposing workers, it just doesn't seem like he knows that.

He's moaning about GP's not wanting to work 12 hour days, seven days a week and then acting like his lot will have no problem recruiting more doctors. And he's supposedly one of Labour's brightest bulbs.


----------



## newme (Dec 12, 2022)

SpookyFrank said:


> I know he's not supposed to be supporting the government and opposing workers, it just doesn't seem like he knows that.
> 
> He's moaning about GP's not wanting to work 12 hour days, seven days a week and then acting like his lot will have no problem recruiting more doctors. And he's supposedly one of Labour's brightest bulbs.


We just had our best GP go on long term sick, I am not surprised. Unfortunately she was a co-owner and the other guy is an incompetent nightmare.


----------



## alex_ (Dec 12, 2022)

SpookyFrank said:


> I know he's not supposed to be supporting the government and opposing workers, it just doesn't seem like he knows that.
> 
> He's moaning about GP's not wanting to work 12 hour days, seven days a week and then acting like his lot will have no problem recruiting more doctors. And he's supposedly one of Labour's brightest bulbs.



He’s not moaning about this at all, he’s telling private businesses who are happy to take government funding that maybe their businesses should be open when the people who are paying for it want to use them.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 12, 2022)

alex_ said:


> He’s not moaning about this at all, he’s telling private businesses who are happy to take government funding that maybe their businesses should be open when the people who are paying for it want to use them.



NHS GP surgeries aren't private businesses you prat.


----------



## alex_ (Dec 12, 2022)

SpookyFrank said:


> NHS GP surgeries aren't private businesses you prat.



I stand corrected, but they should open when people want them to - otherwise people with go to emergency care.


----------



## magneze (Dec 12, 2022)

What? Why? It's not like they're 12-1 Tuesdays only.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 15, 2022)

Evidence that things are working out just as intended for the neoliberal consolidator state cunts.


----------



## LDC (Dec 15, 2022)

alex_ said:


> I stand corrected, but they should open when people want them to - otherwise people with go to emergency care.



The problem isn't opening hours, it's society having a growing population with chronic and poorly managed health problems (including mental health) that's in large part due to poverty, inequality, poor housing, terrible public health programs and education, lack of childhood exercise, etc, etc.; on top of decades of underfunded other bits of healthcare. GPs have a huge workload that they're not set-up for, and that's meaning doctors aren't wanting to be GPs, and current GPs leave or are off long term sick, thereby increasing the problem.

If you think GP opening hours (or 'lazy GPs' which is the subtext) are in any way a part of the problem you've just fallen for the Tory line you gullible fool.

Honestly the fucking idiocy on all this is staggering from some.

Society and its healthcare are falling apart, fucking tinkering with opening times as some sort of panacea is the worst kind of deckchair re-arranging on the Titanic.


----------



## LDC (Dec 15, 2022)

I tell you what will sort out the NHS; sort out the massively unequal, over-worked, poorly housed, stressed out, isolated, financially fucked, badly nourished and under-exercised population.

Who's going to do that?


----------



## teqniq (Dec 15, 2022)

Petition: NHS workers need a pay rise
					

I’ve just signed to support this campaign – join me



					r.ippl.es


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 15, 2022)

LDC said:


> I tell you what will sort out the NHS; sort out the massively unequal, over-worked, poorly housed, stressed out, isolated, financially fucked, badly nourished and under-exercised population.
> 
> Who's going to do that?


Not shammer


----------



## Ming (Dec 18, 2022)

So just to recap. A fucking tory minister is asking nurses to be ‘fair and reasonable’. They really are shameless brass necked arseholes aren’t they?

Minister urges unions to call off nurse and ambulance strikes Minister urges unions to call off nurse strikes


----------



## Ming (Dec 18, 2022)

I rate this guy as a political commentator. Uncle Phil.


----------



## ska invita (Dec 18, 2022)

Ming said:


> I rate this guy as a political commentator. Uncle Phil.



Agree with that, government reckons it can stare down the strikes it has the power to resolve, but the nurses strike is likely a massive overstretch of that power and dangerously (for them) contradicts public opinion... Thing is even if they do "u turn" and settle that strike, I don't think it changes anything regarding other strikes. I don't think "u turns" are "humiliating", that's just Westminster village chatter.


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## Karl Masks (Dec 18, 2022)

ska invita said:


> Agree with that, government reckons it can stare down the strikes it has the power to resolve, but the nurses strike is likely a massive overstretch of that power and dangerously (for them) contradicts public opinion... Thing is even if they do "u turn" and settle that strike, I don't think it changes anything regarding other strikes. I don't think "u turns" are "humiliating", that's just Westminster village chatter.


Given how big the strike was outside the BRI the government may well be underestimating public support


----------



## Ming (Dec 18, 2022)

ska invita said:


> Agree with that, government reckons it can stare down the strikes it has the power to resolve, but the nurses strike is likely a massive overstretch of that power and dangerously (for them) contradicts public opinion... Thing is even if they do "u turn" and settle that strike, I don't think it changes anything regarding other strikes. I don't think "u turns" are "humiliating", that's just Westminster village chatter.


Thing is they‘re on the record saying they want to privatize it for profit.

Here’s a book they wrote. Check the authors.









						Jeremy Hunt co-authored book calling for NHS to be replaced with private insurance
					

'Direct Democracy: An Agenda For A New Model Party' called for the 'denationalisation' of the NHS




					www.independent.co.uk
				




Also they’ve already said it’s all about money. This article is 11 years old. Plan’s been a long time in the making….









						David Cameron's adviser says health reform is a chance to make big profits
					

Kitchen cabinet aide says charging improves service and NHS should be shown 'no mercy' in drive for reform




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## ska invita (Dec 18, 2022)

Ming said:


> Thing is they‘re on the record saying they want to privatize it for profit.
> 
> Here’s a book they wrote. Check the authors.
> 
> ...


A pay rise today doesn't stop those plans.
I reckon they'll make a deal with the nurses, but not RMT


----------



## Ming (Dec 18, 2022)

ska invita said:


> A pay rise today doesn't stop those plans.
> I reckon they'll make a deal with the nurses, but not RMT


I’m sure they’ll divide to conquer and  divide to rule. As they always do. The RMT isn’t the same as ASLEF (train drivers union) right? Train drivers are well paid (as they should be) because they have a strong militant union.

Being a nurse it was weird coming to Canada 10 years ago and having my pay doubled to frankly where it should be. I’m not on Brewsters but a wage that reflects my education and level of responsibility. Shock to the system after 5 years of post qualification acute work in the NHS. Nurses are well underpaid in England. I’d like to put a hedge fund manager on an acute psych unit for a 12 hour shift and then see if they still think their pay is commensurate.


----------



## ska invita (Dec 19, 2022)

Ming said:


> Nurses are well underpaid in England.


and so overworked. theres lots of jobs that shouldnt have such overlong shifts, but healthcare has got be up there near the top of the most dangerous to others
I wonder how hours compare in different countries


----------



## Ming (Dec 19, 2022)

ska invita said:


> and so overworked. theres lots of jobs that shouldnt have such overlong shifts, but healthcare has got be up there near the top of the most dangerous to others
> I wonder how hours compare in different countries


We do 48 hour shifts here. Generally 2 *12 hr day shifts then 2*12 nights. 

Pay's great but the hours are awful.


----------



## Karl Masks (Dec 19, 2022)

ska invita said:


> A pay rise today doesn't stop those plans.
> I reckon they'll make a deal with the nurses, but not RMT


Aside from being able to interfere, the government doesn't directly deal with the unions regarding rail, does it? Being caught out interfering should have been destructive for them, but not in this fucked up media landscape of manufactured consent absent of critical thinking


----------



## ska invita (Dec 19, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> Aside from being able to interfere, the government doesn't directly deal with the unions regarding rail, does it?


Govs ability to interfere by all accounts means it is ultimately down to them


----------



## brogdale (Dec 23, 2022)

If you can get past the £-wall (try c&ping the title and then google that) this FT article has some cracking, party colour-coded, graphs depicting austerity & health metrics.


----------



## yield (Dec 23, 2022)

brogdale said:


> If you can get past the £-wall (try c&ping the title and then google that) this FT article has some cracking, party colour-coded, graphs depicting austerity & health metrics.
> 
> View attachment 356765
> 
> View attachment 356767





			Welcome to nginx!
		

Paywall avoiding


----------



## brogdale (Dec 23, 2022)

yield said:


> Welcome to nginx!
> 
> 
> Paywall avoiding


Brilliant! 
Thanks, I never remember these busting sites.


----------



## LDC (Dec 23, 2022)

brogdale said:


> If you can get past the £-wall (try c&ping the title and then google that) this FT article has some cracking, party colour-coded, graphs depicting austerity & health metrics.
> 
> View attachment 356765
> 
> View attachment 356767



Oooooohhhh, I love me a nice load of graphs, thanks!


----------



## kenny g (Dec 23, 2022)

My experience of hospital after shattering my wrist was that there was an upstairs downstairs are you being served management culture in place. Nurses working their arses off whilst at night doctors were nicking blankets from stores to sleep their shifts off. Based on over heard snatches of conversation admittedly. Plus usual discipline problems where you have staff pissed off and underpaid. Some of the top performers who I got on with well appeared to be off their nut on opioids. It was a completely bizarre combination of some working at 150 percent and others on max slack. My personal experience in the past 5 months has been beyond exemplary but when I look at the wages earned by those involved it seems horrific. Fully support them 100 percent


----------



## quiet guy (Dec 23, 2022)

The disjointed approach between local services, GP practices and hospital departments really got my goat. I'd been referred to hospital radiology for some scans by my GP. Then was reassigned to district nurses for leg dressings and wound management while they waited for the reports. Had to chase the reports after 12 weeks only to end up in a circle of hell between the hospital and the GP with neither one willing to try to sort things out. It took the senior district nurse to kick ass to get things sorted so that her colleagues could tailor what was required for my recovery. 
Too many people with little empires to control and forgetting about the patient.


----------



## Ming (Dec 23, 2022)

Looks like the plan is working well.









						Private ambulance firms cashing in on strikes and NHS under pressure
					

Exclusive: Companies tapping into growing demand, often charging hundreds of pounds – or more for longer journeys




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Ming (Dec 25, 2022)

I’m going to throw this one in. 

Look it’s fucking obvious the Tories have hated the NHS since 1948. It’s an example of socialism working well so we can’t have that. 

Fuck things working if we can‘t make any money from it right?

I think they are going to destroy it as Bevan warned against.

Remember we are dealing with psychopaths.

A new breed of human being with no empathy, no compassion, no guilt, no shame,…basically brass necked arseholes in suits.


----------



## ska invita (Dec 25, 2022)

of course


----------



## LDC (Dec 25, 2022)

quiet guy said:


> The disjointed approach between local services, GP practices and hospital departments really got my goat. I'd been referred to hospital radiology for some scans by my GP. Then was reassigned to district nurses for leg dressings and wound management while they waited for the reports. Had to chase the reports after 12 weeks only to end up in a circle of hell between the hospital and the GP with neither one willing to try to sort things out. It took the senior district nurse to kick ass to get things sorted so that her colleagues could tailor what was required for my recovery.
> *Too many people with little empires to control and forgetting about the patient.*



Oh fuck off if you think that's the problem rather than chronic underfunding, overwork, shit and unintegrated IT systems, etc. etc.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 25, 2022)

LDC said:


> Oh fuck off if you think that's the problem rather than chronic underfunding, overwork, shit and unintegrated IT systems, etc. etc.


Agree with your criticism of that last point, but the last (July) top-down re-organisation into ICBs (Integrated Care Boards to replace the former CCGs) does seem to accelerated the silo-mentality. From my own recent experience I am encountering increasing problems/blockages in care coordination as ICBs claim that they are not able to access medical records/clinical information held by other ICBs. I even had one phone operative explain to me that the other ICB was "a different company". I'm not entirely sure what this fragmentation heralds but it certainly is not patient centred.

From a cursory exploration of their role the ICBs purport to be a means of improving and co-ordinating health and social care but I suspect they represent a managerial layer that has more to do with accountancy than anything else. Looks like the bean counters will be examining 'cost centres' and ear-marking productive ones for internal privatisation and looking to close costly ones.


----------



## LDC (Dec 25, 2022)

brogdale said:


> Agree with your criticism of that last point, but the last (July) top-down re-organisation into ICBs (Integrated Care Boards to replace the former CCGs) does seem to accelerated the silo-mentality. From my own recent experience I am encountering increasing problems/blockages in care coordination as ICBs claim that they are not able to access medical records/clinical information held by other ICBs. I even had one phone operative explain to me that the other ICB was "a different company". I'm not entirely sure what this fragmentation heralds but it certainly is not patient centred.
> 
> From a cursory exploration of their role the ICBs purport to be a means of improving and co-ordinating health and social care but I suspect they represent a managerial layer that has more to do with accountancy than anything else. Looks like the bean counters will be examining 'cost centres' and ear-marking productive ones for internal privatisation and looking to close costly ones.



For sure there's huge problems with poor integration (especially IT, although that's also complicated with some patient resistance to record sharing - but also for some understandable reasons), but it was the tone of the problem they mentioned as being down to people not being patient-centred rather than the slow privatisation, terrible bureaucracy, government targets and re-organisations, etc. I'm totally the first to say the NHS is inefficient, slow and poorly intergrated in places, but it's not really down to anything but stuff I already said. I'm also really wary of anything at the moment that lays any public criticism of aspects of care _anywhere _but the government's doorstep, so maybe I jumped too much on that sentence.

E2A: The structure of the NHS and trying to understand it is a fucking nightmare. I had to spend some significant time recently trying to figure all the various aspects of it out, and ffs it wasn't easy, so totally agree with that.


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## bellaozzydog (Dec 25, 2022)

My friend runs an IT company and one of his areas of business is looking after various NHS systems

He likens the NHS to a dead whale that is being eaten by a frenzy of private company sharks

He says he regularly loses tenders as he is seen as “too cheap” when he prices jobs up, the culture is so used to massive mark ups and profit margins that an honest budget in a tender (still
With healthy profit) is looked at with suspicion “can he do it for that price”


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## Ming (Dec 25, 2022)

bellaozzydog said:


> My friend runs an IT company and one of his areas of business is looking after various NHS systems
> 
> He likens the NHS to a dead whale that is being eaten by a frenzy of private company sharks
> 
> ...


Sharks. Good analogy. 

Shame we've devolved our decision making to them.


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## alex_ (Dec 25, 2022)

LDC said:


> Oh fuck off if you think that's the problem rather than chronic underfunding, overwork, shit and unintegrated IT systems, etc. etc.



What he’s complaining about IS unintegrated IT systems !

Case management and workflow are solved technology problems.


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## SpookyFrank (Dec 26, 2022)

kenny g said:


> Some of the top performers who I got on with well appeared to be off their nut on opioids.



12 hour shifts doing intense, often physically demanding work cause a lot of chronic pain issues. 

These kind of shifts are so ubiquitous in the NHS that getting rid of them and returning to a three-shift pattern doesn't seem to be on anyone's agenda. But it would improve recruitment and, crucially, retention of experienced staff no end.


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## kalidarkone (Dec 26, 2022)

SpookyFrank said:


> 12 hour shifts doing intense, often physically demanding work cause a lot of chronic pain issues.
> 
> These kind of shifts are so ubiquitous in the NHS that getting rid of them and returning to a three-shift pattern doesn't seem to be on anyone's agenda. But it would improve recruitment and, crucially, retention of experienced staff no end.


Disagree! There is more flexible working g then there has ever been in order to retain staff. In my trust anyway.

My trust and my department have a range of shift patterns and  although most people do 12 hour shifts ( three different 12 hour shift patterns) there are early shifts and late shifts (8 hours) mid early and mid latest (10 hours). 

I prefer 12 hour shifts because it means I only have to get up 3 x a week.


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## Ming (Dec 26, 2022)

kalidarkone said:


> Disagree! There is more flexible working g then there has ever been in order to retain staff. In my trust anyway.
> 
> My trust and my department have a range of shift patterns and  although most people do 12 hour shifts ( three different 12 hour shift patterns) there are early shifts and late shifts (8 hours) mid early and mid latest (10 hours).
> 
> I prefer 12 hour shifts because it means I only have to get up 3 x a week.


We just accept it unfortunately. 

Goes with the territory. 

My first nurse manager was a wonderful person. 

Obviously for confidentiality I won't be too specific. 

So I've rolled up straight out of university in my first job when I've actually got the keys. 

I'm like '5 days 9-5pm'? Sweet. (courses we have to do). 

She goes 'don't get used to this because if you do this you'll never have a regular working life ever again'. 

She was right rofl!


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## kalidarkone (Dec 26, 2022)

Because of the crazy shortage of staffing - my trust will literally accept most hours or and tailor made shift patterns.

I work 34.5 hours and I have said I do not want to work nights or weekends.  They have taken it on board because they have enough unregistered staff that love nights and weekends (obviously the money is better)

 Occasionally I get the odd weekend day- which i take on the chin and I can request ( get 6 shift requests a month) to work a weekend if for whatever reason that suits me. 

This is the only advantage to the lack of staffing- management aree more open to being flexible within reason so shifts are covered- it's very much give and take. Sometimes they contact me to ask if I can change the day I am working because they are having to juggle to make it work....and I'm usually happy to comply if it doesn't get in the way of my plans too much.


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## DaveCinzano (Dec 26, 2022)

kalidarkone said:


> Disagree! There is more flexible working g then there has ever been in order to retain staff. In my trust anyway.
> 
> My trust and my department have a range of shift patterns and  although most people do 12 hour shifts ( three different 12 hour shift patterns) there are early shifts and late shifts (8 hours) mid early and mid latest (10 hours).
> 
> I prefer 12 hour shifts because it means I only have to get up 3 x a week.


In my last Trust as Band 2 A&C I worked 12 hour shifts, 13 per month on a four-weekly schedule. Shifts were either 'Early' (0800-2000), 'Late' (1000-2200), or 'Night' (2000-0800).

If I had been working Mon-Fri 9-5, I would have needed to have been a Band 5 to make the same money, due to Unsocial enhancements (evenings, weekends, Bank Holidays etc). Due to permanent swaps with other team members I only worked 3 out of every 4 weeks - one week would be 4 consecutive night shifts, the next week five day shifts, then a week off, then two day shifts and two night shifts. We could usually pick up Bank Shifts as well.

So whilst it was grim, hard work, you could pull in some cash. Personally I prefer longer shifts, I found it gave me more effective decompression.


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## kalidarkone (Dec 26, 2022)

DaveCinzano said:


> In my last Trust as Band 2 A&C I worked 12 hour shifts, 13 per month on a four-weekly schedule. Shifts were either 'Early' (0800-2000), 'Late' (1000-2200), or 'Night' (2000-0800).
> 
> If I had been working Mon-Fri 9-5, I would have needed to have been a Band 5 to make the same money, due to Unsocial enhancements (evenings, weekends, Bank Holidays etc). Due to permanent swaps with other team members I only worked 3 out of every 4 weeks - one week would be 4 consecutive night shifts, the next week five day shifts, then a week off, then two day shifts and two night shifts. We could usually pick up Bank Shifts as well.
> 
> So whilst it was grim, hard work, you could pull in some cash. Personally I prefer longer shifts, I found it gave me more effective decompression



Also for me the 12 hour shifts mean more continuity for day case  patients. I admit them  get them prepped for surgery  recover them and discharge them.


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## Edie (Dec 26, 2022)

kalidarkone said:


> Because of the crazy shortage of staffing - my trust will literally accept most hours or and tailor made shift patterns.
> 
> I work 34.5 hours and I have said I do not want to work nights or weekends.  They have taken it on board because they have enough unregistered staff that love nights and weekends (obviously the money is better)
> 
> ...


My Trust (and my position) means I can work as much or as little, they’re just so desperate. I know lots of trainees LTFT and vast majority of GPs don’t work FT as it simply isn’t sustainable with the intensity of workload. 

You can make an absolute killing as a locum hospital doctor picking up shifts. £50-£80ph isn’t unusual for junior doctors, much more for locum consultants, and they’re 12 hour shifts. I pick up a bunch. 

I don’t think this is ‘right’ but you can’t blame the players when the game is fucked. Not doing them would cause an even bigger crisis. And quite often (and I’m talking every few weeks) you get called during your non-work time by medical staffing begging you to take the shift.

It’s a mess.


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## DaveCinzano (Dec 26, 2022)

Edie said:


> You can make an absolute killing as a locum hospital doctor picking up shifts. £50-£80ph isn’t unusual for junior doctors, much more for locum consultants, and they’re 12 hour shifts.


One of the many jobs my team had outside of 9-5 (alongside Medical Records, Patient Transport and various other Band 3+ duties the Trust was averse to paying for properly) was doing the Bank Office's out-of-hours paperwork with locums arriving to do night shifts. Rates varied. Some that I saw were at £130ph. So more than £1500 for one shift, even after a digs charge was taken off. 

Yet the Trust would not pay for Med Recs staff to look after notes outside of Mon-Fri 9-5, ditto Patient Transport (starting Band: 3), and no supervisors or managers in our department worked after 4pm on a Friday until 9am on a Monday (or any evenings).

But, you know, gotta make savings 🤷


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## Edie (Dec 26, 2022)

DaveCinzano said:


> One of the many jobs my team had outside of 9-5 (alongside Medical Records, Patient Transport and various other Band 3+ duties the Trust was averse to paying for properly) was doing the Bank Office's out-of-hours paperwork with locums arriving to do night shifts. Rates varied. Some that I saw were at £130ph. So more than £1500 for one shift, even after a digs charge was taken off.
> 
> Yet the Trust would not pay for Med Recs staff to look after notes outside of Mon-Fri 9-5, ditto Patient Transport (starting Band: 3), and no supervisors or managers in our department worked after 4pm on a Friday until 9am on a Monday (or any evenings).
> 
> But, you know, gotta make savings 🤷


I’m being paid £50 an hour right now. I’m in the bath. Non residential 24hr on call. Balances out tho- spent Christmas night all night on the wards 🤷🏻‍♀️ 

I’ve heard of some Med reg shifts going for £100s/hr for hard to fill shifts or craft specialties. If you gave up the day job and just took locums you’d be really rich and have a fantastic work-life balance.


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## SpookyFrank (Dec 26, 2022)

kalidarkone said:


> Because of the crazy shortage of staffing - my trust will literally accept most hours or and tailor made shift patterns.
> 
> I work 34.5 hours and I have said I do not want to work nights or weekends.  They have taken it on board because they have enough unregistered staff that love nights and weekends (obviously the money is better)
> 
> ...



Mrs Frank's trust is also desperate for staff but they still give her no say in her shift patterns. Case in point; her shifts this week (all 12.5 hours) are Christmas eve, Christmas day, new year's eve and new year's day.


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## Edie (Dec 26, 2022)

That said you couldn’t pay me to be the med reg covering AMU and the wards. Fuck. That. Shit.


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## Edie (Dec 26, 2022)

SpookyFrank said:


> Mrs Frank's trust is also desperate for staff but they still give her no say in her shift patterns. Case in point; her shifts this week (all 12.5 hours) are Christmas eve, Christmas day, new year's eve and new year's day.


That’s a shitty rota coordinator there. Get hit for Christmas, get NY off. And vv.


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## LDC (Dec 26, 2022)

Edie said:


> That said you couldn’t pay me to be the med reg covering AMU and the wards. Fuck. That. Shit.



"Call the med reg, they can sort it out."


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## Edie (Dec 26, 2022)

LDC said:


> "Call the med reg, they can sort it out."


I would refuse to admit your “social admission”, your “off legs no known cause”, or your “new onset confusion”


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## LDC (Dec 26, 2022)

I do 3 x 10.5 hours and a 7.5hr shift. I started here doing 3 x 13.5hrs and it nearly killed me. And probably the patients I saw in the last 2-3 hours of each shift. But I'd say most people prefer the longer shifts; nurses and junior doctors anyway, all the more senior staff do shorter shifts. 

I think the thing to do would be to drop weekly hours more than cut the shift length across the board. And like kalidarkone my department is also so desperate and works 24/7 so most people (if the manager is decent) can just work what they want much of the time.


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## LDC (Dec 26, 2022)

Edie said:


> I would refuse to admit your “social admission”, your “off legs no known cause”, or your “new onset confusion”



Yeah, that's just me though, what about the patients?


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## Edie (Dec 26, 2022)

LDC said:


> Yeah, that's just me though, what about the patients?


Me with an AKI having not had chance to drink for ten hours writing “push oral fluids” 😭


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## LDC (Dec 26, 2022)

Edie said:


> Me with an AKI having not had chance to drink for ten hours writing “push oral fluids” 😭



Collapse _no fucking query as to the _cause.


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## kalidarkone (Dec 26, 2022)

SpookyFrank said:


> Mrs Frank's trust is also desperate for staff but they still give her no say in her shift patterns. Case in point; her shifts this week (all 12.5 hours) are Christmas eve, Christmas day, new year's eve and new year's day.


That fucking sucks!


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## Ming (Dec 27, 2022)

DaveCinzano said:


> In my last Trust as Band 2 A&C I worked 12 hour shifts, 13 per month on a four-weekly schedule. Shifts were either 'Early' (0800-2000), 'Late' (1000-2200), or 'Night' (2000-0800).
> 
> If I had been working Mon-Fri 9-5, I would have needed to have been a Band 5 to make the same money, due to Unsocial enhancements (evenings, weekends, Bank Holidays etc). Due to permanent swaps with other team members I only worked 3 out of every 4 weeks - one week would be 4 consecutive night shifts, the next week five day shifts, then a week off, then two day shifts and two night shifts. We could usually pick up Bank Shifts as well.
> 
> So whilst it was grim, hard work, you could pull in some cash. Personally I prefer longer shifts, I found it gave me more effective decompression.


Totally. Couldn’t go back to just two days off a week. Much prefer a brutal 48 hours in four days and then 4 off. Makes more sense. When i was an office monkey I’d just get in at 6pm after the commute and get stoned and play video games mostly (nothing wrong with that obviously). With 4 days off you can actually do stuff and go places. We only get 148 hours in the week right?


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## Artaxerxes (Dec 29, 2022)

NHS dentistry, such as it was, has just gone hasn't it? It's not coming back


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## bellaozzydog (Dec 29, 2022)

Artaxerxes said:


> NHS dentistry, such as it was, has just gone hasn't it? It's not coming back


The only access to dentistry my mate has in the south west was getting practiced on by dental under-grad Students at local medical school

I’ve gotta see a dentist regularly because part of my certificates/tickets required for a job is dental health involving examination
And X-ray. This jumped from 65 quid last year to 175 quid this year. My auld dentist retired and someone took over and smashed up the prices

next step GPs

Jeremy Hunt needs a fuxking stake in his heart


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## teqniq (Dec 29, 2022)

I still have an NHS dentist but they are like rocking horse shit.


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## Pickman's model (Dec 29, 2022)

Ming said:


> Totally. Couldn’t go back to just two days off a week. Much prefer a brutal 48 hours in four days and then 4 off. Makes more sense. When i was an office monkey I’d just get in at 6pm after the commute and get stoned and play video games mostly (nothing wrong with that obviously). With 4 days off you can actually do stuff and go places. We only get 148 hours in the week right?


168


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## teqniq (Jan 2, 2023)

Criminal negligence on the part of the vermin? I think so:









						A&E delays causing up to 500 deaths a week, says senior medic
					

President of the Royal College of Emergency Medicine believes waiting times for December will be the worst he has ever seen




					www.theguardian.com


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## Elpenor (Jan 2, 2023)

teqniq said:


> I still have an NHS dentist but they are like rocking horse shit.


I make a 334 mile round trip to see mine


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## kropotkin (Jan 2, 2023)

Edie said:


> I’m being paid £50 an hour right now. I’m in the bath. Non residential 24hr on call. Balances out tho- spent Christmas night all night on the wards 🤷🏻‍♀️
> 
> I’ve heard of some Med reg shifts going for £100s/hr for hard to fill shifts or craft specialties. If you gave up the day job and just took locums you’d be really rich and have a fantastic work-life balance.


I did 6 weeks as a locum stroke consultant for £120/hr before I took a permanent job.


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## teqniq (Jan 2, 2023)

Also lest anyone forget the catalogue of failures that Hunt presided over this article from last year is a comprehensive takedown of the man:









						How new chancellor Jeremy Hunt ruined the NHS
					

As the former health secretary is appointed to the Exchequer, his ministerial past puts paid to his ‘sensible’ image




					www.opendemocracy.net


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## kropotkin (Jan 2, 2023)

Edie said:


> That said you couldn’t pay me to be the med reg covering AMU and the wards. Fuck. That. Shit.


It's quite exciting but clearly the hardest job in the hospital. 5 years was quite enough for me thanks.


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## teqniq (Jan 2, 2023)




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## weltweit (Jan 2, 2023)

I wonder how our health system compares on a cost per capita, to the German, French or US systems? 

I bet we currently spend a lot less.


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## elbows (Jan 2, 2023)

As I just mentioned on a covid thread, they finally got desperate enough to tell parents to keep their kids off school if sick:









						Children told to stay home from school if sick amid flu, Covid and scarlet fever
					

The advice to parents at the end of the Christmas break comes amid high levels of flu and Covid cases.



					www.bbc.co.uk


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## bluescreen (Jan 4, 2023)

In the olden days we used to pay bursaries to trainee nurses and provide them with subsidised accommodation. Now we expect them to get £££thousands into debt for their nursing degree even before they earn a penny.

But it's more than just woeful underfunding, it's bloodsucking too. Agencies are one of the vampires.  NHS spent £3 billion last year on agency staff. And agency bosses have political clout of course.
See Morning Star article on Lord Ashcroft's firm MEDACS, cited earlier by teqniq








						Medacs: how to make money from a run-down NHS
					

SOLOMON HUGHES illuminates the dark art of Tory trickery in the health service: cut public spending, then pay major party donors like Lord Ashcroft to fill the gaps with their private medical companies




					morningstaronline.co.uk
				




From Nursing Times, November 2022:


> 14 NOVEMBER, 2022 BY MEGAN FORD
> 
> NHS trusts across England are increasingly relying on expensive agency staff to fill workforce gaps, with one organisation shelling out as much as £2,500 for a single agency nurse shift.
> Analysis by the Labour Party revealed the NHS paid more than £3bn to agencies to provide nurses and doctors at short notice during 2021-22.
> ...











						NHS agency spend up 20% in England amid workforce gaps | Nursing Times
					

NHS trusts across England are increasingly relying on expensive agency staff to fill workforce gaps, with one organisation shelling out as much as £2,500




					www.nursingtimes.net
				




And from way back in *2015 *- a hit job by the Torygraph on how agencies are making a killing from the inability of the NHS to recruit, train and retain staff


> _How nursing agencies making billions are bleeding the NHS dry_​_A Telegraph investigation reveals the boom underway at agencies supplying doctors and nurses to the NHS amid a rapidly deepening budget deficit in the service_


paywall busted: archived

The figures cited in the article would be massively higher now, but even back then:


> The Telegraph's investigation shows how revenue at one of the NHS’s largest outsourced recruitment firms, Independent Clinical Services (ICS), increased by 60 per cent in just two years, to £314 million.
> Meanwhile, spending on agency staff by NHS foundation trusts – two-thirds of hospitals – rose by 64 per cent over a two-year period, pushing the health service into debt.
> Figures obtained by The Telegraph show that Barts Health NHS Trust in London spent most heavily on agency staff, with an £81 million bill in 2014-15.
> It was followed by King’s College Hospital foundation trust and Royal Free London NHS trust, which each spent more than £60 million.
> The trusts blame their reliance on temporary staff on a lack of qualified nurses. Many have tried to employ more nurses in the wake of the Mid Staffs scandal, but struggled to find permanent workers, causing the agency bill to spiral.





> *Critics say the problem has been caused by underinvestment in training, a lack of any effective cap on the rates that agencies charge and a failure to recruit enough staff.*


In true tabloid fashion the article mentions the lavish lifestyles of some of the agency bosses, illustrated with pictures of houses valued at what must have seemed back then extraordinary prices. It doesn't talk about their political influence.


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## teqniq (Wednesday at 6:38 PM)

Worth a watch:


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## Shechemite (Wednesday at 7:14 PM)

Saw it earlier, glad to see some recognition of doctors being complicit in nhs privatisation, but don’t you think that the parade of weirdos on NTAMS is a big clue as to why it has been so easy for the Labour right (and the right as a whole) to advance their agendas?


teqniq said:


> Worth a watch:


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## Shechemite (Wednesday at 7:20 PM)

It’s the same crowd that (at least some) posters on here balk at on the ‘no to nato’ event thread.

You may well be mad and you may not be going to take it any more, but you ain’t going to be beat psychiatry by allying with Scientology, nor are you going to beat the remorseless march of neo-liberalism by allying with antisemitic, despot defending cranks. You’re just doing the enemy’s work for them.


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## teqniq (Thursday at 10:14 AM)

Shechemite said:


> Saw it earlier, glad to see some recognition of doctors being complicit in nhs privatisation, but don’t you think that the parade of weirdos on NTAMS is a big clue as to why it has been so easy for the Labour right (and the right as a whole) to advance their agendas?


Never watched a piece by them before and am subsequently unfamiliar with the 'parade of weirdos' you refer to. I see from your following post that you allude to antisemitism and Scientology. Unsavoury.


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## Duncan2 (Thursday at 8:31 PM)

Cathy Newman conducted an interview with a Professor of Medicine about the poly-crisis affecting the NHS.At her invitation he explained that we have for some time now had a system with stark regional variations which was also rightly said to be a two-tier system with people unable to pay for private care being the ones now exposed to unprecedented waiting times both in A-E following strokes and heart attacks and when in need of an operation of one kind or another."Finally" she then said "have you or your family ever had recourse to private health-care".Err well yes they had gone private for scans here and there when waiting times seemed too long."
He seemed quite taken aback to be asked this and the entire point of the interview seemed to have been negated-extraordinary question to have asked when she must have known what the answer was likely to be.


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