# Dead Pubs



## Orang Utan (Feb 2, 2012)

I've been cycling all over London a lot recently, and one thing that has struck me is the amount of dead pubs there are. It seems that at one time, there was a pub every two streets or so.
It's sad to see this of course, but I also find it staggering that there used to be so many. Londoners must have spent a lot of time boozing in the old days.
Here are some pictures of dead pubs:
http://www.flickr.com/groups/deadpubssociety/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/sapperb/sets/72157620853839684/with/6806758463/


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 2, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> I've been cycling all over London a lot recently, and one thing that has struck me is the amount of dead pubs there are. It seems that at one time, there was a pub every two streets or so.
> It's sad to see this of course, but I also find it staggering that there used to be so many. Londoners must have spent a lot of time boozing in the old days.
> Here are some pictures of dead pubs:
> http://www.flickr.com/groups/deadpubssociety/
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/sapperb/sets/72157620853839684/with/6806758463/



People in this cold, damp country need somewhere to socialise.  It's not like we can all go and sit in the garden and have a barbecue or sit on the beach or in parks etc. in this weather


----------



## Diamond (Feb 2, 2012)

No TV = loads of pubs.

There was a reasonably interesting doc with a stupid name ("The Rules of Drinking") quite recently that you might be interested in.  Beeb page here:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b019c85h


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 2, 2012)

Diamond said:


> No TV = loads of pubs.



I remember when I first went to Ireland.  Most people only had 2 channels then.  We had 5 (or more if you had satellite etc.)


----------



## Orang Utan (Feb 2, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> People in this cold, damp country need somewhere to socialise. It's not like we can all go and sit in the garden and have a barbecue or sit on the beach or in parks etc. in this weather


not anymore though, hence the dead pubs. we're all on the internet or watching tv as diamond correctly points out


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 2, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> not anymore though, hence the dead pubs. we're all on the internet or watching tv as diamond correctly points out


dear pints = dead pubs


----------



## RaverDrew (Feb 2, 2012)

smoking ban was the nail in the coffin for many of them


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 2, 2012)

RaverDrew said:


> smoking ban was the nail in the coffin for many of them


that too.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 2, 2012)

Most people didn't have much in their houses in the not too distant past. A pub was warm with hopefully a warm welcome.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 2, 2012)

TopCat said:


> Most people didn't have much in their houses in the not too distant past. A pub was warm with hopefully a warm welcome.


yeh and drinking at home was seen as a bad thing to do


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 2, 2012)

RaverDrew said:


> smoking ban was the nail in the coffin for many of them



rip-off prices don't help either


----------



## TopCat (Feb 2, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh and drinking at home was seen as a bad thing to do


It's sometimes worth paying the premium prices of pubs for pints given the alternative of your better half doing a count up at the bottle bank once a week.


----------



## Orang Utan (Feb 2, 2012)

RaverDrew said:


> smoking ban was the nail in the coffin for many of them


perhaps for some, but loads closed down before that.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 2, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> perhaps for some, but loads closed down before that.



Prices, greedy breweries etc.

Anyone read that story in The Mirror the other day of that pub that was shut down on New Year's Eve?


----------



## Diamond (Feb 2, 2012)

In terms of cause and effect, I'd hazard a guess that price rises proportionally lagged pub closures over time.

"Community" decline also has to be factored in. There were areas of Britain, generally centred on a central industry around which all else clustered, where the pub would be the default social setting for the men and, later on, possibly the women. As those industries inexorably declined, so did the community, helping fragment and undermine the cultures that had grown up around it.

Pub culture suffered as part of that process.


----------



## tarannau (Feb 2, 2012)

Aye, but the smoking ban's changed the style of pub likely to survive too. Food led city centred pubs or places with decent outdoor provision can still prosper, but you're fighting an uphill battle if you expect a big chunk of your clientele to stand on a narrow strip of pavement outside and pay a hefty premium for the privilege.


----------



## _angel_ (Feb 2, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Prices, greedy breweries etc.
> 
> Anyone read that story in The Mirror the other day of that pub that was shut down on New Year's Eve?


Breweries/ owners seem to be pushing out tenants with extortionate prices


----------



## TopCat (Feb 2, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> perhaps for some, but loads closed down before that.



Much of the problem was caused by the insane contracts that many pubs were/are leased on.


----------



## Diamond (Feb 2, 2012)

Although, price rises would now be a key factor (along with a whole host of others, mind, such as not being able to serve a half decent pint / pubcos / rising rents) undermining pubs.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 2, 2012)

Diamond said:


> In terms of cause and effect, I'd hazard a guess that price rises proportionally lagged pub closures over time.
> 
> "Community" decline also has to be factored in. There were areas of Britain, generally centred on a central industry around which all else clustered, where the pub would be the default social setting for the men and, later on, possibly the women. As those industries inexorably declined, so did the community, helping fragment and undermine the cultures that had grown up around it.
> 
> Pub culture suffered as part of that process.



Yuppies taking over pubs and turning them into expensive joints (too expensive for people on low wages/pensioners etc) don't help either.

My nearest pub now charges £2 for a half pint of FOSTERS.  I mean, Fosters is practically water.  How dare they think it's ok to charge £2 for Fosters


----------



## editor (Feb 2, 2012)

RaverDrew said:


> smoking ban was the nail in the coffin for many of them


Almost all of the pubs that have closed in Brixton closed before the smoking ban: Green Man, Warrior, Bradys, Crown, Hamilton, Queen, Enterprise etc etc.

http://www.urban75.org/brixton/bars/lost-pubs.html


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Feb 2, 2012)

_angel_ said:


> Breweries/ owners seem to be pushing out tenants with extortionate prices


Yes, and also managed pubs are often appallingly badly run, so that even if they could easily survive in the area, they can still end up being ruined and sold off or shut down.


----------



## Orang Utan (Feb 2, 2012)

i remember going to this pub in bethnal green:
http://www.closedpubs.co.uk/london/e2_bethnalgreen_cavalier.html






it was ace, esp in the summer and i can't believe they knocked it down to replace it with this:


----------



## editor (Feb 2, 2012)

tarannau said:


> Aye, but the smoking ban's changed the style of pub likely to survive too. Food led city centred pubs or places with decent outdoor provision can still prosper, but you're fighting an uphill battle if you expect a big chunk of your clientele to stand on a narrow strip of pavement outside and pay a hefty premium for the privilege.


No shortage of people doing exactly that around Brixton on a Saturday night, though (Dogstar, Plan B, Living etc).


----------



## TopCat (Feb 2, 2012)




----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 2, 2012)

Here's the story from The Mirror the other day.

*Pub landlord suspended for serving pints "too full" of beer*


Read more: http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2012/01/29/pub-landlord-suspended-for-serving-pints-too-full-of-beer-115875-23724558/#ixzz1lFTcm9no​


----------



## Orang Utan (Feb 2, 2012)

good site, this:
http://www.closedpubs.co.uk/index.html


----------



## Diamond (Feb 2, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Yuppies taking over pubs and turning them into expensive joints (too expensive for people on low wages/pensioners etc) don't help either.
> 
> My nearest pub now charges £2 for a half pint of FOSTERS. I mean, Fosters is practically water. How dare they think it's ok to charge £2 for Fosters



A lot of those places aren't really pubs anymore though, are they?

I mean you have your Pitcher & Piano or your Slug & Lettuce but certainly a lot of London gastropubs are essentially restaurants masquerading in pub garb. What I'm getting at is that they're not really drinking venues - no one goes there for a session.

So, in a way, each one counts as the effective closure of a pub and the opening of a restaurant.


----------



## tarannau (Feb 2, 2012)

editor said:


> No shortage of people doing exactly that around Brixton on a Saturday night, though (Dogstar, Plan B, Living etc).



Saturday night is generally not the time you struggle to attract punters on. It's bums on seats at the quieter times that helps a pub tick along.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Feb 2, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Here's the story from The Mirror the other day.
> 
> *Pub landlord suspended for serving pints "too full" of beer*
> 
> ...


The area manager in my local came round one day and insisted that all the (lovely) slightly-oversized branded pint glasses were removed, just in case, by accident, somebody served a customer a few millilitres too much beer.

Granted, he's a wanker.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 2, 2012)

Diamond said:


> A lot of those places aren't really pubs anymore though, are they?
> 
> I mean you have your Pitcher & Piano or your Slug & Lettuce but certainly a lot of London gastropubs are essentially restaurants masquerading in pub garb. What I'm getting at is that they're not really drinking venues - no one goes there for a session.
> 
> So. in a way, each one counts as the effective closure of a pub and the opening of a restaurant.



True, but I suppose that's the only way they can survive as drinking establishments - by serving better grub and playing music that more appeals to the younger crowds who can afford to drink/eat in these places


----------



## Orang Utan (Feb 2, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Here's the story from The Mirror the other day.
> 
> *Pub landlord suspended for serving pints "too full" of beer*
> 
> Read more: http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2012/01/29/pub-landlord-suspended-for-serving-pints-too-full-of-beer-115875-23724558/#ixzz1lFTcm9no​


debbie gibson's really let herself go


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 2, 2012)

tarannau said:


> Saturday night is generally not the time you struggle to attract punters on. It's bums on seats at the quieter times that helps a pub tick along.



Exactly, and what most people seem to be forgetting is, those bums on the seats at quieter times were often the pensioners etc. who no longer drink because 1) it's too expensive and 2) the pubs are all shut during the daytime and they don't like being out at night


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 2, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> debbie gibson's really let herself go



Ex-g/f of yours?


----------



## _angel_ (Feb 2, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Exactly, and what most people seem to be forgetting is, those bums on the seats at quieter times were often the pensioners etc. who no longer drink because 1) it's too expensive and 2) the pubs are all shut during the daytime and they don't like being out at night


No end of old man pubs around here, has to be said.


----------



## Orang Utan (Feb 2, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Ex-g/f of yours?


eh? wha?


----------



## Orang Utan (Feb 2, 2012)

_angel_ said:


> No end of old man pubs around here, has to be said.


i remember arranging to meet a friend at a wetherspoon's and just called it the old men's pub in a text to him. he was late cos he spent ages looking for 'The Old Men's Pub.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 2, 2012)

_angel_ said:


> No end of old man pubs around here, has to be said.



Not many around Brixton any more, and the ones that are around, might be on dark, unlit road or you'd need public transport, which isn't ideal for a lot of pensioners who would feel safer using their local as they know and are known in the area and one of the locals might walk them back home if they'd stayed a bit longer than they'd intended to


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 2, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> eh? wha?



I got the impression you knew her


----------



## TopCat (Feb 2, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> i remember going to this pub in bethnal green:
> http://www.closedpubs.co.uk/london/e2_bethnalgreen_cavalier.html
> 
> 
> ...


That replacement is just wrong.


----------



## Orang Utan (Feb 2, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> I got the impression you knew her


i used to have one of her records


----------



## isvicthere? (Feb 2, 2012)

TopCat said:


> It's sometimes worth paying the premium prices of pubs for pints given the alternative of your better half doing a count up at the bottle bank once a week.



A mate of mine's missus makes him drive down to the bottle bank midweek so the recycling collection people don't see how much they've really drunk.


----------



## isvicthere? (Feb 2, 2012)

Basically, the decline of the pub was another shit thing engendered by - guess who! - Thacher. Tory legislation limited the amount of pubs the big breweries could have. So they had to sell a lot off cheaply, which gave rise to the Pub Co. These are basically property developers. If a tenant can make a go of it, OK. If not, kick them out, flog it off, more yuppie flats. Previously, the big boys - like, say, William Hill - could afford to keep loads of places open even if they didn't all turn a big profit. Now that no longer pertains = the death of the pub as it was once known.


----------



## Greebo (Feb 2, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Here's the story from The Mirror the other day.
> 
> *Pub landlord suspended for serving pints "too full" of beer*
> 
> Read more: http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2012/01/29/pub-landlord-suspended-for-serving-pints-too-full-of-beer-115875-23724558/#ixzz1lFTcm9no​


Shame about that pub - looks like it's mainly the fault of the pubcos (the owners of the pubs who set the terms of who you buy the beer from etc). That lady used to be _the Debbie Gibson?_  The years haven't exactly been kind. Here's what she used to look like, Minnie:


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 2, 2012)

Greebo said:


> Shame about that pub - looks like it's mainly the fault of the pubcos (the owners of the pubs who set the terms of who you buy the beer from etc). That lady used to be _the Debbie Gibson?_ the years haven't exactly been kind. Here's what she used to look like, Minnie:



I've still no idea who she is


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Feb 2, 2012)

OU went out with Debbie Gibson????


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 2, 2012)

FridgeMagnet said:


> OU went out with Debbie Gibson????


----------



## Orang Utan (Feb 2, 2012)

Not THE Debbie Gibson. she's an actress now as a Deborah, not a Debbie. She starred in Mega Shark Vs Giant Octopus and Mega Python vs Gatoroid.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Feb 2, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> Not THE Debbie Gibson. she's an actress now as a Deborah, not a Debbie. She starred in Mega Shark Vs Giant Octopus and Mega Python vs Gatoroid.


Dude, respect.


----------



## Greebo (Feb 2, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> I've still no idea who she is


Okay, do you remember Kylie Minogue and Jason Donovan when they were pop singers as (from the Stock Aitken & Waterman stable) well as actors?  Debbie Gibson, Tiffany, Sinita, and Rick Astley were around at that time.  It's possible that you heard them all the time but just forgot because it was so traumatic!


----------



## TopCat (Feb 2, 2012)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Ms3mJFkSeg


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 2, 2012)

Greebo said:


> Okay, do you remember Kylie Minogue and Jason Donovan when they were pop singers as (from the Stock Aitken & Waterman stable) well as actors? Debbie Gibson, Tiffany, Sinita, and Rick Astley were around at that time. * It's possible that you heard them all the time but just forgot because it was so traumatic!*




I think you may be right.  Was she a one-hit wonder like Sinita?  Maybe she needs to shag Simon Cowell to get herself noticed more *
*

*
*


----------



## Orang Utan (Feb 2, 2012)

She's a film star now - she doesn't have to bother


----------



## toblerone3 (Feb 2, 2012)

There used to be too many pubs, now there are too many coffee shops.


----------



## Corax (Feb 2, 2012)

There are gonna be a lot more dead pubs if the breweries continue with this line-monitoring debacle.


----------



## paolo (Feb 2, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> My nearest pub now charges £2 for a half pint of FOSTERS. I mean, Fosters is practically water. How dare they think it's ok to charge £2 for Fosters



Really? Where's that?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 2, 2012)

The White Horse.  Needless to say, I don't make a habit of drinking there.  I think their coke is almost the same price as well


----------



## discokermit (Feb 2, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> good site, this:
> http://www.closedpubs.co.uk/index.html








officially the swan bank tavern, known to everyone as "the stump" or "the fiery stump" as the landlord way back had a wooden leg which once got set on fire.

just history now.


----------



## paolo (Feb 2, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> The White Horse. Needless to say, I don't make a habit of drinking there. I think their coke is almost the same price as well



Hmm. Back in March I price checked a bunch of pubs in Brixton. Kronenbourg at the White Horse was £3.70 a pint there. So I'm sceptical about this £2 half of Fosters.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 2, 2012)

Near me a load of pubs have gone to yuppie flats - five on my road alone. The acton up on kingsland road closed in '98 and mr nolan who owned it could have sold it on as a pub for about 90k but got considerably more selling it for development


----------



## silverfish (Feb 2, 2012)

My local, (licence holder died in the last six months) is in limbo at the minute, new buyers look at it, look at the 3 years left on the lease and steer wel clear. Its a pub where rotas for visiting the older punters who can't get to the pub get orgamised every week sometimes three or four  generations of a family visiting an old timer for a couple of drinks and a bit of shopping delivery. 

Free food organised by volunteers with a national flavour for each formula one race, sharing out of the proceedes of a heavy apple/cider harvest, you get your eggs off barry the egg who doubles up as your taxi driver when you are shit faced, its the hub of local gossip, a proper pub

Fuck it Im tempted to put an offer in, worst case scenario its the cheapest four bedroom property in the county....


----------



## TruXta (Feb 2, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> The White Horse. Needless to say, I don't make a habit of drinking there. I think their coke is almost the same price as well



Surely they do this to keep out "undesirables"? I keep noticing how bloody white and m/c it is every time I'm dragged in there.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 2, 2012)

TruXta said:


> Surely they do this to keep out "undesirables"? I keep noticing how bloody white and m/c it is every time I'm dragged in there.



Jesus, what am I saying  

I don't mind the White Horse so much now

I meant George IV/Southside/Music Bar


----------



## TruXta (Feb 2, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Jesus, what am I saying
> 
> I don't mind the White Horse so much now
> 
> I meant George IV/Southside/Music Bar



Oh. Never been there. Looks dull. My comment about the White Horse still stands btw.


----------



## skyscraper101 (Feb 2, 2012)

Almost no boozers in LA at all, count yourselves lucky.

When in London, the swing factor is price of ale, and price of food. I can't say having 200 channels to watch and the internet keeps me indoors. In fact the internet is probably less of a factor anyway now everyone has smart phones. However, I'd sooner go to a Wetherspoons and eat for less than a tenner than pay £15 for a scampi and a pint elsewhere.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 2, 2012)

paolo999 said:


> Hmm. Back in March I price checked a bunch of pubs in Brixton. Kronenbourg at the White Horse was £3.70 a pint there. So I'm sceptical about this £2 half of Fosters.



My brain's not right.  The White Horse is not my nearest pub at all.

I meant George IV/Southside/Music Bar


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 2, 2012)

paolo999 said:


> Hmm. Back in March I price checked a bunch of pubs in Brixton. Kronenbourg at the White Horse was £3.70 a pint there. So I'm sceptical about this £2 half of Fosters.



Anyway, barring the fact that I fucked up, you might be interested to know, if you ever go to Ireland, a price like that would be correct (although a much steeper price).  It's cheaper to drink pints slowly than to drink halves


----------



## paolo (Feb 2, 2012)

TruXta said:


> Surely they do this to keep out "undesirables"? I keep noticing how bloody white and m/c it is every time I'm dragged in there.



Weekdays it is, to an extent. Not quite the full Clapham, but certainly more m/c than anywhere else locally that I can think of. The weekend crowd is different - party people. Always jumping when I stick my nose in.

I like the place, personally (although at weekends I think the hoot edges it).


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 2, 2012)

TruXta said:


> Oh. Never been there. Looks dull. My comment about the White Horse still stands btw.



Outrageous the prices they charge considering the state of their loos. Black mouldy stuff in pub loos is not on.

I agree with you about the White Horse but I do tend to go there before it gets busy and full of the white, middle-class

oh, and avoid it completely at the weekends


----------



## TruXta (Feb 2, 2012)

paolo999 said:


> Weekdays it is, to an extent. Not quite the full Clapham, but certainly more m/c than anywhere else locally that I can think of. The weekend crowd is different - party people. Always jumping when I stick my nose in.
> 
> I like the place, personally (although at weekends I think the hoot edges it).



Don't get me wrong, it's not terrible, just a bit dull. The plus side is their ale is usually decent.


----------



## paolo (Feb 2, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> My brain's not right. The White Horse is not my nearest pub at all.
> 
> I meant George IV/Southside/Music Bar



Aaaaaahhh.... Now that rings true.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 2, 2012)

TruXta said:


> Don't get me wrong, it's not terrible, just a bit dull. The plus side is their ale is usually decent.



The only reason I ever go there is if I'm at the local shops and if friend wants to go somewhere to read newspaper as the lighting in certain areas makes this possible.


----------



## paolo (Feb 2, 2012)

TruXta said:


> Don't get me wrong, it's not terrible, just a bit dull. The plus side is their ale is usually decent.


 
Yep. The only other place near me with ale is Mango Landin, which I like, but all they have is IPA.

And as Minnie says, the White Horse is good for reading... I quite enjoy a pint over the newspaper.


----------



## TruXta (Feb 2, 2012)

ML is a bit dull too, and surprisingly rugger bugger at times. At least it was one or two years ago.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 2, 2012)

ML's a bit too far for me.

At least other pubs in the area (ie. Elm Park, White Horse, Hand in Hand) don't charge £2.  Can't remember what the White Horse charges but Elm Park and Hand are both under £1.70


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 3, 2012)

Diamond said:


> In terms of cause and effect, I'd hazard a guess that price rises proportionally lagged pub closures over time.
> 
> "Community" decline also has to be factored in. There were areas of Britain, generally centred on a central industry around which all else clustered, where the pub would be the default social setting for the men and, later on, possibly the women. As those industries inexorably declined, so did the community, helping fragment and undermine the cultures that had grown up around it.
> 
> Pub culture suffered as part of that process.


 
Gentrification from the '70s-onward has had quite an effect, too. As some areas saw a fairly brisk change in demographic (parts of Brixton, Streatham, Wandsworth and Battersea for example), the pubs lost a portion of their customers, and as gentrification has spread, so have the social effects of gentrification.


----------



## Streathamite (Feb 3, 2012)

the supermarkets have a lot to answer for. it's their loss- leader sales of booze at heavy discounts that's REALLY hurt the pub trade. The margins were never big enough for pubs to follow suit in the first place


----------



## kabbes (Feb 3, 2012)

I _am_ white and middle-class


----------



## Diamond (Feb 3, 2012)

There is also, believe it or not, a growing trend towards if not sobriety, then certainly abstemious drinking in large and influential sections of modern British society.

This could, of course, be both a cause and an effect though.


----------



## salem (Feb 3, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> i remember going to this pub in bethnal green:
> http://www.closedpubs.co.uk/london/e2_bethnalgreen_cavalier.html


 
Is that the corner of weavers fields? I went to a few parties there when it was a squat a few years ago. That think they built to replace it is horrific.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 3, 2012)

TopCat said:


> That replacement is just wrong.


Uglier than a dog's arse, too.


----------



## paolo (Feb 3, 2012)

Streathamite said:


> the supermarkets have a lot to answer for. it's their loss- leader sales of booze at heavy discounts that's REALLY hurt the pub trade. The margins were never big enough for pubs to follow suit in the first place



Pedantic note: In London at least, the 'cheap supermarket booze' is a myth. The independents are where it's at. The staple 'Six for five' never consistently matched by the supermarkets. Our local Sainsbury's, with all that buying power, is 30% more expensive than the offy on same brands. Far from being loss leading, they are minting it.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Feb 3, 2012)

Streathamite said:


> the supermarkets have a lot to answer for. it's their loss- leader sales of booze at heavy discounts that's REALLY hurt the pub trade. The margins were never big enough for pubs to follow suit in the first place


 
I don't think there's one overriding cause of pubs closing tbh. Where I grew up, in Lincolnshire, a whole load of pubs closed when it became socially unacceptable to drive home completely smashed. There are loads of closed pubs by the road in the middle of nowhere. Obviously other places have other issues.


----------



## Orang Utan (Feb 3, 2012)

salem said:


> Is that the corner of weavers fields? I went to a few parties there when it was a squat a few years ago. That think they built to replace it is horrific.


yep, such a shame


----------



## Orang Utan (Feb 3, 2012)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> I don't think there's one overriding cause of pubs closing tbh.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


depends what you're buying. i can get pissed on decent enough wine for as little as £8 from the supermarket, but not from local offies. why go out and get pissed in a pub when it'll cost you at least £20. you can choose your own music and company at home too. home is often the most attractive and affordable option.


----------



## kabbes (Feb 3, 2012)

But what is the attraction in the first place to get pissed for the sake of getting pissed?


----------



## Orang Utan (Feb 3, 2012)

kabbes said:


> But what is the attraction in the first place to get pissed for the sake of getting pissed?


cos it's fun.
getting drunk is fun.


----------



## Roadkill (Feb 3, 2012)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> I don't think there's one overriding cause of pubs closing tbh. Where I grew up, in Lincolnshire, a whole load of pubs closed when it became socially unacceptable to drive home completely smashed. There are loads of closed pubs by the road in the middle of nowhere. Obviously other places have other issues.


 
Very true, although plenty of rural pubs have also been flogged off for residential use.   In the case of city pubs there really isn't any one factor at work IMO.  In the long run more alternatives to the pub and changing drinking habits have had a lot to do with it, but the rate of closures has speeded up in the last couple of decades thanks to all the things people have already pointed to - changes in the law on tied houses, breweries and pub chains locking tenants into ridiculous contracts, ultra-cheap deals in the supermarkets and competition from places like Wetherspoons, which can undercut traditional pubs.  I'm told the tax regime doesn't do pubs any favours either.  As for the smoking ban, AFAIK it's not been shown to have caused a great decline in people going to the pub, but I do think it's hastened the demise of a lot of the old men's street corner pubs, many of which would have been struggling anyway.  Certainly, it's mostly those sort of places that have gone in Greenwich recently.


----------



## Greebo (Feb 4, 2012)

kabbes said:


> But what is the attraction in the first place to get pissed for the sake of getting pissed?


In a nutshell, this world gets a bit too hard-edged for some people to want to be fully lucid in it all of the time.  As long as there have been humans, there've been attempts to alter perception:  With poisons (taken at a dose low enough to survive it most of the time), with plant extracts, with music, with dancing to exhaustion, with fasting, with thirst, with sleep deprivation, with sensory overload, with trance, with pain... getting drunk is just one more way of altering your headspace for a bit.  More predictable than some, certainly more legal, but better than any other?  I'm not sure.


----------



## monsterbunny (Feb 4, 2012)

Where I lived in Camberwell 21 years ago, all the local pubs have now shut down:  The Rose in Edmund St, The Bricklayers in Southampton Way, the British Lion, The Brewers, the Anchor and Hope, the Admiral Codrington.   The days of the back-street boozer are long gone, sadly.


----------



## paolo (Feb 4, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> depends what you're buying. i can get pissed on decent enough wine for as little as £8 from the supermarket, but not from local offies. why go out and get pissed in a pub when it'll cost you at least £20. you can choose your own music and company at home too. home is often the most attractive and affordable option.



Back up with hard numbers.

For wine, I priced checked Sainsburys on Brixton Hill, vs. the Indy 'High Spirits'.

The three same bottles of wine I checked were all 30% more expensive. Specific bottles of wine, not picking any old cheap shit from any of the outlets, then comparing arbitrarily.

If you want to compare random shit: My local indie does 2 bottles of unknown for £4.99. The supermarket competition doesn't do anything like that.

Now, brand for brand. £10.49 at Sainsbury's for yellow label wolf blass. £7.99 over the road.

I challenge you or anyone to come up with an everyday price for an known booze brand where (in my area) the supermarket beats the indy.


----------



## xenon (Feb 4, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Gentrification from the '70s-onward has had quite an effect, too. As some areas saw a fairly brisk change in demographic (parts of Brixton, Streatham, Wandsworth and Battersea for example), the pubs lost a portion of their customers, and as gentrification has spread, so have the social effects of gentrification.



My dad grew up around Battersea. Before it became "Bat-eazie." When we were driving through Wandsworth, he'd always point out loads of pubs he'd known, mostly boarded up. This was in the 80s by then. Although, the decline does seem to have accellerated in last 10 years.


----------



## xenon (Feb 4, 2012)

paolo999 said:


> Pedantic note: In London at least, the 'cheap supermarket booze' is a myth. The independents are where it's at. The staple 'Six for five' never consistently matched by the supermarkets. Our local Sainsbury's, with all that buying power, is 30% more expensive than the offy on same brands. Far from being loss leading, they are minting it.




Same all over I reckon. Bargain Booze et al. and my local News & Booze


----------



## paolo (Feb 4, 2012)

xenon said:


> Same all over I reckon. Bargain Booze et al. and my local News & Booze



Aye. If you want expensive booze in London, go to the supermarket.

Big up our indie friends.


----------



## xenon (Feb 4, 2012)

Anyway IME. Aside the effect of the Pubcos, which have effected the prices, stock and conditions for landlords. I think someone had it right earlier, talking about the change in working life. I work in a fairly large office but there's not really a massive culture of everyone going to the pub after work. Same in previous places. (No, it's not they just don't ask me. I think. ) I'm not agin going for a couple of pints on my own but not every night. The rise of home entertainment, internet access to a whole load of media never seen before is a factor. Internet down = definitely go to pub.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Feb 4, 2012)

It gets cheaper if you buy from the larger branches, in large quantities - you can often get cases of beer with big discounts from a fair-sized one. (Your local corner shop may be prepared to do you a deal on a case too mind, if you ask.) Wine is also cheaper or at least no more expensive (plus, wine boxes). A Tesco Metro though is a shit place to buy alcohol, and those are most of them in London.


----------



## machine cat (Feb 4, 2012)

xenon said:


> Same all over I reckon. Bargain Booze et al. and my local News & Booze


 
There's one up the road from me called 'Rhythm and Booze'


----------



## paolo (Feb 4, 2012)

FridgeMagnet said:


> It gets cheaper if you buy from the larger branches, in large quantities - you can often get cases of beer with big discounts from a fair-sized one. (Your local corner shop may be prepared to do you a deal on a case too mind, if you ask.) Wine is also cheaper or at least no more expensive (plus, wine boxes). A Tesco Metro though is a shit place to buy alcohol, and those are most of them in London.


 
Hmm. I really want you to be right on this, but can you be more specific?

e.g. go to Tesco Brixton, buy (x) Stella, and then they are £x

This is the detail that noone can ever give when I throw the challenge.

It isn't that I'm being a indiemaniac - oh no, it's far more selfish. I'd just like to know where the cheap booze is. Wherever it is, wins.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Feb 4, 2012)

paolo999 said:


> Hmm. I really want you to be right on this, but can you be more specific?
> 
> e.g. go to Tesco Brixton, buy (x) Stella, and then they are £x
> 
> ...


Well, say, if I go to the Tesco Metro down the road to buy Stella, I can buy at best 440ml cans in a 10-pack for over a quid each, if they have ten-packs in at all - otherwise it's £1.20+ per can. In the big Tescos in Brook Green, I've seen cases at 30-50% off, in total coming to less than corner-shop prices. Not that I could carry them back from there.


----------



## Orang Utan (Feb 4, 2012)

paolo999 said:


> Back up with hard numbers.
> 
> For wine, I priced checked Sainsburys on Brixton Hill, vs. the Indy 'High Spirits'.
> 
> ...


well it varies from week to week depending on the offer, but jacob's creek, kumala, blossom hill - all the shitty new world grog - is way cheaper in the supermarket - in my experience. most wines in offies are £3 higher than supermarkets. i used to buy a lot of wine. i know what i'm talking about


----------



## pennimania (Feb 4, 2012)

mr mania and I courted in this boozer - not actually that pleasant but a local anyway in E5.

On a flying visit to lower Clapton this week I note it is being converted to flats


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Feb 4, 2012)

The base prices for brands like Wolf Blass are kept at a basic high level in supermarkets, so that they can cycle their discounts. At least a couple of them are always "reduced" at any one time.


----------



## paolo (Feb 4, 2012)

This is my gripe.

We're again into the "this one time" territory.

The new 'standard' is 6 cans (e.g. Stella) for £5.50

That works out at £1.83/litre. Not a random off-load, a price you can get every day.

The best I can see at Tesco direct is £2.10/litre, same brand.

Where do I go for this 'cheapest' supermarket booze? Where in London? What day of the week? How will I know if it's really there?

Again I'm looking for specifics... Not band camp.


----------



## paolo (Feb 4, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> well it varies from week to week depending on the offer, but jacob's creek, kumala, blossom hill - all the shitty new world grog - is way cheaper in the supermarket - in my experience. most wines in offies are £3 higher than supermarkets. i used to buy a lot of wine. i know what i'm talking about



Ok, so if I price check these, you're saying the independent, over the road from my big four shop, will be more expensive?

You sure about that? Or are you about to backpedal? I'll check tomorrow or Monday. Be sure.


----------



## paolo (Feb 4, 2012)

FridgeMagnet said:


> The base prices for brands like Wolf Blass are kept at a basic high level in supermarkets, so that they can cycle their discounts. At least a couple of them are always "reduced" at any one time.



If you're saying supermarkets are generally more expensive, I have no dispute.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Feb 4, 2012)

paolo999 said:


> If you're saying supermarkets are generally more expensive, I have no dispute.


Well, they're not, because they rarely charge the "full price". They have to, legally, for a certain amount of time, to be able to say that they are offering a discount, but they have a few basically equivalent brands, some of which are the £10+ and some of which are on at half price at any one point. You'd have to be nuts to pay over £10 for a bottle of Wolf Blass, but they don't expect you to when it's the scheduled "normal price" one. You're meant to say "oh that's a bit dear but look, this one's at half price".


----------



## paolo (Feb 4, 2012)

...because they rarely charge the "full price".

No, they never charge full price - they always charge a 30% premium at mine. *Always*. List some brands and I'll price check them vs the indy opposite. No cheating. Will take photos if I don't get chucked out.


----------



## Orang Utan (Feb 4, 2012)

paolo999 said:


> Ok, so if I price check these, you're saying the independent, over the road from my big four shop, will be more expensive?
> 
> You sure about that? Or are you about to backpedal? I'll check tomorrow or Monday. Be sure.


No, I'm saying with full confidence that supermarket wine is way cheaper than off license wine. As FM says, there is always a half price or multibuy offer on. Even Jacob's Creek and other popular brand is generally at least £2 cheaper when not on offer.


----------



## paolo (Feb 4, 2012)

The (London, remember  ) "supermarket is cheaper" challenge list:

Jacob's creek
Kumala
Blossom Hill
Wolf Blass

To that I'll add:

5% Stella

Any more for the challenge?

I'll do the results in a new thread, cos' I'm already going way off topic with this


----------



## Orang Utan (Feb 4, 2012)

You seem to be ignoring the perpetual half-price, 2 for 1, 3 for 12 deals supermarkets always have on. Even without those, supermarkets always have some drinkable wine for a fiver or less. Offies rarely charge less than £7-8


----------



## paolo (Feb 4, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> You seem to be ignoring the perpetual half-price, 2 for 1, 3 for 12 deals supermarkets always have on. Even without those, supermarkets always have some drinkable wine for a fiver or less. Offies rarely charge less than £7-8


 
I can compare those too. I'll add them to the list. ("Offies rarely charge less than £7-8" - in Brixton? Really?)


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Feb 4, 2012)

paolo999 said:


> The (London, remember  ) "supermarket is cheaper" challenge list:
> 
> Jacob's creek
> Kumala
> ...


I don't drink that shit (maybe Kumala occasionally) but that is the exact brand segment that they always have at least a couple on discount for. That will be £5-6ish. I can't get them at a corner shop for less than that around here.


----------



## paolo (Feb 4, 2012)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I don't drink that shit (maybe Kumala occasionally) but that is the exact brand segment that they always have at least a couple on discount for. That will be £5-6ish. I can't get them at a corner shop for less than that around here.


 
No worries - it doesn't matter too much that you (or I) drink them. We just need something to compare like for like. We can't price compare without something specific.


----------



## Orang Utan (Feb 4, 2012)

paolo999 said:


> I can compare those too. I'll add them to the list. ("Offies rarely charge less than £7-8" - in Brixton? Really?)


Yeah for sure! Have you ever bought wine in an offie? They only get business cos they're open longer than the supermarkets


----------



## paolo (Feb 4, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> Yeah for sure! Have you ever bought wine in an offie? They only get business cos they're open longer than the supermarkets


 
Up on the hill, wine was £2.49 a bottle, bought in twos, a wee while back.

Personally I've *never* seen a "rarely less than £7" off license, except a few weeks ago right by Old Street. Nightmare. Walked another 100m and it was back down to normal price. Didn't pass a supermarket on the way, as it happens.


----------



## paolo (Feb 4, 2012)

Price check list, now including catch-all categories for general offers outside of the brands we've named...

Jacob's creek
Kumala
Blossom Hill
Wolf Blass
Cheapest white wine.
Cheapest red wine.
5% Stella


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Feb 4, 2012)

There will always be shops _somewhere_ that have wine _at some point_ that is cheaper than the centrally-priced supermarket amounts. But they're not competing with shops halfway across London, just ones in the local neighbourhood.


----------



## Orang Utan (Feb 4, 2012)

You have to be tripping. You can't get palatable wine from a local offie for less than £7


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Feb 4, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> You have to be tripping. You can't get palatable wine from a local offie for less than £7


Certainly not two for a fiver - those have been horrible Italian piss recently around here. I'd rather have a glass of water.


----------



## paolo (Feb 4, 2012)

FridgeMagnet said:


> There will always be shops _somewhere_ that have wine _at some point_ that is cheaper than the centrally-priced supermarket amounts. But they're not competing with shops halfway across London, just ones in the local neighbourhood.


 
I'm not about to travel around the UK to find anomalies in independent shop pricing.

Here's what I'm going to do: Go to the Sainsbury on Brixton Hill. Then go to High Spirits, the independent opposite. If I'm really bored, I'll also price check online at price comparision website for the big supermarkets.

I can't check every branch of the supermarkets, or every branch of the independents. And then do that daily to product a year average blah blah blah.

I'm going to do a price check on everyday prices where I live. Once.


----------



## paolo (Feb 4, 2012)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Certainly not two for a fiver - those have been horrible Italian piss recently around here. I'd rather have a glass of water.


 
So in which case, it's better not to have unknown brands in the challenge, as that becomes subjective.

Agreed?


----------



## paolo (Feb 4, 2012)

So:

To avoid subjectivity in our price challenge, I'll removed unknown brand offers.

Cheapest white wine. (Removed because it could be piss)
Cheapest red wine. (Removed because it could be piss) 

Leaves us back with:

Jacob's creek
Kumala
Blossom Hill
Wolf Blass
5% Stella


----------



## Orang Utan (Feb 4, 2012)

I don't know why you are bothering


----------



## paolo (Feb 4, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> I don't know why you are bothering


 
You've stayed with it so far.

Let's do this.


----------



## paolo (Feb 5, 2012)

Right, over and out. Unless there's any late submissions for the challenge, I'll report back in another thread. May the best retailer win!


----------



## Orang Utan (Feb 5, 2012)

Man, everything's cheaper at the supermarket, apart from possibly chilis


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Feb 5, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> Man, everything's cheaper at the supermarket, apart from possibly chilis


Lots of things are more expensive at the supermarket, particularly vegetables, but certain things are cheap to draw people in, depending on the type of custom that branch expects. (Spirits are often at fuck-off ridiculous prices in smaller branches, now I think of it, because they're not planning on catering for people who regularly pick up bottles of whiskey on the way home from work.)


----------



## RaverDrew (Feb 5, 2012)

Supermarkets do wines such as this http://www.tesco.com/groceries/Product/Details/?id=256258395 http://www.tesco.com/groceries/Product/Details/?id=256583988

Which are cheaper than wines you'll find in any local offy, and a million times more drinkable than that meths-laced 2-4-£5 shite


----------



## RaverDrew (Feb 5, 2012)

This one is a particular favourite actually http://www.tesco.com/groceries/Product/Details/?id=257287001


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Feb 5, 2012)

TBH it's a bit odd expecting corner shops to sell cheaper better wine than supermarkets anyway - we don't expect them to sell, say, cheaper bread or milk. Buy wine at Majestic or something, though, and you'll get a lot more for your cash.


----------



## _angel_ (Feb 5, 2012)

FridgeMagnet said:


> TBH it's a bit odd expecting corner shops to sell cheaper better wine than supermarkets anyway - we don't expect them to sell, say, cheaper bread or milk. Buy wine at Majestic or something, though, and you'll get a lot more for your cash.


Weird thing is the chain offlicences will sell wine cheaper than _our_ corner shop. As will supermarkets. Even ones in rich areas. Tbh he's just a bit of  a rip off and charges 19p for a crappy placcy bag as well.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 5, 2012)

xenon said:


> My dad grew up around Battersea. Before it became "Bat-eazie." When we were driving through Wandsworth, he'd always point out loads of pubs he'd known, mostly boarded up. This was in the 80s by then. Although, the decline does seem to have accellerated in last 10 years.


 
Yep, started in the late '70s, with the independents going, then after the indies had been "rationalised", either by being bought up by the big breweries, or going out of use, you had another "purge" in the late '80s when the breweries (except, thankfully, for Youngs) went "value-added"-crazy, and the big chain pubs started doing theme nights, which drew custom away from the "communtiy" boozers. Of course, in the last decade or so, a lot more of the closures have been down to PubCo greed, than to any inherent problem with shifting pints over the bar, and with such a poorly-regulated leasing system in place between publicans and PubCos, that's set to continue.


----------



## DeadManWalking (Mar 1, 2012)

Another great pub's closed, the Montegue Arms in New Cross, only managed to make it there one night but the band was great, two old boys on keyboard and drums, who did any requests and let you come on stage to do the vocals

http://transpont.blogspot.com/


----------



## fractionMan (Mar 1, 2012)

paolo said:


> So:
> 
> To avoid subjectivity in our price challenge, I'll removed unknown brand offers.
> 
> ...


 
these are all piss


----------



## kabbes (Mar 1, 2012)

Did you ever check those prices, paolo?


----------



## Orang Utan (Mar 1, 2012)

DeadManWalking said:


> Another great pub's closed, the Montegue Arms in New Cross, only managed to make it there one night but the band was great, two old boys on keyboard and drums, who did any requests and let you come on stage to do the vocals
> 
> http://transpont.blogspot.com/


oh no!


----------



## Orang Utan (Mar 1, 2012)

that needs a thread on its own


----------

