# When will Brixton reach Peak Burger?



## editor (Apr 26, 2016)

Duck Egg, Phoenix Cafe and Kaff have all been replaced by trendy burger joints, so we've now got Honest Burgers, Bukowski burgers, SHHH burgers, The Joint burgers, Baba Gs burgers, with Dirty Burger, Dip & Flip burger and Boom Burger all on their way.

How many more trendy burger joints will Brixton get before Peak Burger is reached? Or will we go on to achieve Infinite Burgers?


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## Kanda (Apr 26, 2016)

Did we ever reach peak fried chicken? Prolly not so no reason to reach peak burger

(or peak nail bar)


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## bi0boy (Apr 26, 2016)

Is this a peculiarly Brixton phenomenon? Here in Cambrdige we have seen a sudden profusion of Sushi outlets.


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## editor (Apr 26, 2016)

Kanda said:


> Did we ever reach peak fried chicken? Prolly not so no reason to reach peak burger
> 
> (or peak nail bar)


Nail bars have faded from popularity, and I think it's different for fried chicken because they're all about serving up super-cheap fast food and never particularly trendy. In fact many did their best to look like the cheapo Morleys franchise.


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## Kanda (Apr 26, 2016)

editor said:


> Nail bars have faded from popularity, and I think it's different for fried chicken because they're all about serving up super-cheap fast food and never particularly trendy. In fact many did their best to look like the cheapo Morleys franchise.



Still supply and demand. Some will stay some will fade. It's not like nobody saw it coming..


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## killer b (Apr 26, 2016)

Burgers aren't 'trendy' (lol), that was a couple of years ago - they're at mass-market diffusion stage now. Plenty of space before we reach saturation point too, I think...


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## editor (Apr 26, 2016)

killer b said:


> Burgers aren't 'trendy' (lol), that was a couple of years ago - they're at mass-market diffusion stage now. Plenty of space before we reach saturation point too, I think...


'Dirty Burgers' is the very essence of trendy marketing (so edgy!).


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## killer b (Apr 26, 2016)

It's slightly trendier than Nandos, but not by much.


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## sleaterkinney (Apr 26, 2016)

Can we get decent chips yet though?


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## editor (Apr 26, 2016)

sleaterkinney said:


> Can we get decent chips yet though?


Yep. Right here: Jimmy’s Plaice – the finest traditional chippie in Brixton. Find them on Coldharbour Lane, SW9


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## Ted Striker (Apr 26, 2016)

sleaterkinney said:


> Can we get decent chips yet though?



The scenes in the Portobello Road food market (really normally quite good, to their credit) has reached new levels of idiocy with twats trying to hipsterise chips. And I don't even mean the guys doing spiral thingys - they're like the Elon Musk of the hipster chip scene, just plain, boring, precut fishnchip style chips. I counted 3 of the stalls last weekend. 3 stalls. All selling chips.

£3-£4 for a _tiny _cone-full and with absurd desperate attempts to dress them up in beady 'toppings' (y'know, like the ketch 'n 'salt 'n' vinny).

The stupidity is confounded by the consideration that you can't (obvs, unless you're in a team) queue for 2 things at once. So you either eat chips on their own, or with your Dirty Burger*, where one of your burger n chips combo will be COLD 

My outrage can only really be truly felt with pictures. I shall report back!


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## editor (Apr 26, 2016)

killer b said:


> It's slightly trendier than Nandos, but not by much.


I don't agree but thanks for your opinion.



> But a rubicon had been crossed. It marked the beginning of a wearying phase in which burgers have evolved from a post-pub soaker-upper or half-time snack to the pinnacle of hipster gastronomy. Burgers have become pretentious. Novelty food for neophile urban trendies, with their craft ale and beard oil....
> 
> Burgers are now "dirty", "honest" or even "psychic". They are arty, farty and dicked around with. They are the subject of blogs, tumblrs, league tables and endless eulogies on "men's lifestyle" websites.
> 
> ...On every gentrified high street, trendy burgers, gastro-burgers, staggeringly expensive burgers are being shoved down our throats. We're lapping it up, and at weekends Instagram groans under the weight of red meat.


This hipsterfication of burgers has got to stop


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## Ted Striker (Apr 26, 2016)

I'm a bit torn by the wrath - by and large, Burgers are AWESOME, and pretty difficult to fuck up. The march to a £15 standard is a bit galling, and a little bit inside of me died  the few times I attempted to try the White Rasta enclave of Boom Burger (choc full of white pretty guys dancing to Biggie/Juicy. Why is it always Juicy?).

Oh, and anyone chucking a patty less than an inch thick is going to get some SERIOUS negative inclination to insta' it unless there's a 'Burgers Worse Than Hitler" instagram group. And I indeed knew what instagram is/was/does.

But I fucking LOVE burgers. Basically.


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## killer b (Apr 26, 2016)

A, the telegraph. World renowned for having their finger on the pulse.


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## editor (Apr 26, 2016)

killer b said:


> A, the telegraph. World renowned for having their finger on the pulse.


Unlike you, eh?


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## bimble (Apr 26, 2016)

I think it's a cyclic thing, expensive dirty burgers are cool now as part of a posh young people's symbolic rebellion against too much pressure to consume only morally ethically pure food: 
A filthy burger and chips is like the opposite of an organic fair trade kale juice or something, its some sort of pathetic gesture that'll go away when people want to signal how good they are again instead of how edgy.


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## killer b (Apr 26, 2016)

Tomorrow, Dominic Lawson explains what a spice girl is.


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## editor (Apr 26, 2016)

Oh, Harpers are reporting on the latest trendy burger developments - and they're going right upmarket. 
London hipster district gets capital's first fine-wine burger restaurant

At least three other locations could be in the works. One might sit nicely next to the Champagne place in the Villaaaaaaage.


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## Sea Star (Apr 26, 2016)

bi0boy said:


> Is this a peculiarly Brixton phenomenon? Here in Cambrdige we have seen a sudden profusion of Sushi outlets.


I've been struck recently by how many different "real burger" outlets I'm seeing everywhere I go, so I don;t think it is.


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## editor (Apr 26, 2016)

And here's the UK premium burger players, three of which are already in Brixton:

Meat market: the rise of premium burger joints in Britain

And, as I was saying about Dirty Burger:


> Created by the man behind Soho House, Nick Jones, it is no surprise that Dirty Burger is known for being trendy. Jones says the concept came about from a desire to not just have burgers on the Soho House menu, but for the mighty burger to have its own home, or “shack”, as he likes to call the stores.


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## Thimble Queen (Apr 26, 2016)

I like burgers


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## killer b (Apr 26, 2016)

That article is a year old.


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## killer b (Apr 26, 2016)

And that telegraph article is two years old. How long to trendy things stay trendy?


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## bimble (Apr 26, 2016)

killer b said:


> How long to trendy things stay trendy?


Not sure. But if you have the stomach for it, press play on the achingly cool video in here - this is not a burger its a way of life man. 
Dirty Burger | Home


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## editor (Apr 26, 2016)

killer b said:


> That article is a year old.


11 months ackshully, Mr Desperate. 

Given the huge growth in upmarket/trendy burger joints - more and more are arriving in Brixton as I type - I see nothing to suggest that the fashion has passed.


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## killer b (Apr 26, 2016)

Lol, eleven months!

I'm not saying it isn't a growing market, clearly it is. But every second pub refurb is doing a fancy burger menu now, it stopped being any kind of cool thing years ago.


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## editor (Apr 26, 2016)

bimble said:


> Not sure. But if you have the stomach for it, press play on the achingly cool video in here - this is not a burger its a way of life man.
> Dirty Burger | Home


They've got graf on the doors, man. And they've just _sprayed their name on top!_ Fuck they're edgy.


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## editor (Apr 26, 2016)

killer b said:


> Lol, eleven months!


And we've got THREE of these groovy fucker places opening up in Brixton, straight outta Shoreditch/Soho/hipsterland!


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## bimble (Apr 26, 2016)

that chipboard furniture just looks completely shit though, doesn't it, not even remotely edgy.


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## Supine (Apr 26, 2016)

editor said:


> 'Dirty Burgers' is the very essence of trendy marketing (so edgy!).



Is that a real place? You should probably move somewhere with less cunty businesses if it is.


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## editor (Apr 26, 2016)

Supine said:


> Is that a real place? You should probably move somewhere with less cunty businesses if it is.


I'm not fucking moving. Besides they'll be off like a shot at the slightest whiff of a downturn.


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## Supine (Apr 26, 2016)

editor said:


> I'm not fucking moving. Besides they'll be off like a shot at the slightest whiff of a downturn.



I agree with the sentiment but sometime it's better to let go. Leave your dirty burgers, cornflake cafe's, artisan beer emporiums and cat petting establishments etc and move up north. Don't think of it as gentrification, think of it as escaping the smog of bullshit.


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## bimble (Apr 26, 2016)

Got to admit i've been considering it just recently, the idea of maybe living somewhere a bit less complicated.


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## killer b (Apr 26, 2016)

Dirty burger seems to be a neutered mainstream attempt at something the hipsters were doing a few years ago, owned by those hip trendy groovers at Soho house.


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## T & P (Apr 26, 2016)

Decent quality burgers have existed long before hipsters, and if there is more demand now for them than before it is certainly not because they have become trendy or some kind of fashion accessory, but because they are popular with ALL KINDS of people who like burgers- not just those who are considered by others to be 'hispters'.

This obsession with blaming everything new that happens in an area, or any changes in the eating & drinking habits of the people of London or any part thereof as being driven by 'hipsters' is every bit as ludicrous as is inaccurate.


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## clandestino (Apr 26, 2016)

So what's happening with The Phoenix? Are they going back to their old premesis?


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## killer b (Apr 26, 2016)

Fwiw, I reckon what's driving the upmarket burger is that even at the high end it's cheap to produce and requires relatively unskilled staff - so it's good for smaller companies because they can enter the market with relatively little outlay & knowhow, and it's good for larger companies because they can pay the staff fuck all, sell cheap grub expensively and get a bigger profit margin.


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## editor (Apr 26, 2016)

killer b said:


> Fwiw, I reckon what's driving the upmarket burger is that even at the high end it's cheap to produce and requires relatively unskilled staff - so it's good for smaller companies because they can enter the market with relatively little outlay & knowhow, and it's good for larger companies because they can pay the staff fuck all, sell cheap grub expensively and get a bigger profit margin.


Yep. It's the same with pizza. Costs fuck all to make so there's lots of fat profits and double G&Ts all round for the bosses.


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## editor (Apr 26, 2016)

T & P said:


> Decent quality burgers have existed long before hipsters, and if there is more demand now for them than before it is certainly not because they have become trendy or some kind of fashion accessory, but because they are popular with ALL KINDS of people who like burgers- not just those who are considered by others to be 'hispters'.


Well, only those people who can afford those upmarket prices that some charge. And 'Dirty Burger' with their graffit'd doors, corrugated shack interiors and edgy/ironic name certainly seems by ringing the hipster bells for more than a few people even if you can't see it:


> The restaurant itself is inside a huge, gorgeous stone building, artfully covered with graffiti, and inside, everything from the open kitchens (where rotisserie chickens dangle appetisingly) to the ‘vintage’ crockery is achingly hipster
> Dirty Burger – Shoreditch





> From your seat, watch the burgers and shakes being made in the kitchen as you embrace the hipster atmosphere.
> Top 10 Best Burger in London





> We visited on the second night of the soft launch as they were offering 50% off. A little part of us died as we stood queuing for food whilst hipster after hipster walked past looking at us as if we were in line for a food bank.
> Talk dirty to me | Dirty Burger, 13 Bethnal Green Road, Shoreditch, London E1 6LA %%


Dirty Burger is coming to Balham
Hipster Heaven - Dirty Burger, London Traveller Reviews - TripAdvisor
etc etc


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## Yossarian (Apr 26, 2016)

editor said:


> Duck Egg, Phoenix Cafe and Kaff have all been replaced by trendy burger joints, so we've now got Honest Burgers, Bukowski burgers



"Bukowski burgers?" Are you allowed to skip the burger and just order whiskey and cigarettes?


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## T & P (Apr 26, 2016)

editor said:


> Well, only those people who can afford those upmarket prices that some charge.


 I feel I'm falling into a trap by replying to this, but most people who can afford eating out in the first place will be able to afford a burger in any of those places. Simple as that. But I've truly bitten now, so let's start the next 2O-page handbag fest on it.


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## killer b (Apr 26, 2016)

lol. what are these upmarket prices? I bet you'll get fed in any of those burger joints for about the same as pizza hut.


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## cuppa tee (Apr 26, 2016)

editor said:


> Ithey'll be off like a shot at the slightest whiff of a downturn.



a quick google search for boom burger Brixton road reveals it to be "permanently closed" so that's one less to worry about......


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## SpamMisery (Apr 26, 2016)

Oh please can someone revive the "is a burger a meal" debate. Good times.


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## madolesance (Apr 26, 2016)

cuppa tee said:


> a quick google search for boom burger Brixton road reveals it to be "permanently closed" so that's one less to worry about......



Well, when one burger shop fails to open another one comes along at 437 Coldharbour Lane- Home | The Rum Kitchen | Caribbean Beach Shack, Restaurant and Rum Bar
They'll be selling themed burgers that'll add a bit more vibrancy to Coldharbour Lane.


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## ViolentPanda (Apr 26, 2016)

bi0boy said:


> Is this a peculiarly Brixton phenomenon? Here in Cambrdige we have seen a sudden profusion of Sushi outlets.



Sushi sells better to webfoots.


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## toblerone3 (Apr 27, 2016)

AuntiStella said:


> I've been struck recently by how many different "real burger" outlets I'm seeing everywhere I go, so I don;t think it is.



A real dirty burgher would involve a graphic representation of the suffering that animals undergo when bred for food in a cage then and then slaughtered or electrocuted.   To carry on eating in the full knowledge of that.........


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## SpamMisery (Apr 27, 2016)




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## Celyn (Apr 27, 2016)

toblerone3 said:


> A real dirty burgher would involve a graphic representation of the suffering that animals undergo when bred for food in a cage then and then slaughtered or electrocuted.   To carry on eating in the full knowledge of that.........



The real dirty burgher would have to be made of human, though.


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## editor (Apr 27, 2016)

killer b said:


> lol. what are these upmarket prices? I bet you'll get fed in any of those burger joints for about the same as pizza hut.


 If you're looking at burger prices, surely you should compare with the likes of McD/Burger King etc and not a pizza place.


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## editor (Apr 27, 2016)

T & P said:


> I feel I'm falling into a trap by replying to this, but most people who can afford eating out in the first place will be able to afford a burger in any of those places. Simple as that. But I've truly bitten now, so let's start the next 2O-page handbag fest on it.


Honest Burgers is £9.50 for a chicken burger, or £12.50 for the beef special. Add in onion rings for £3.50 and Ketchup for a £1 and any kind of drink, and things are looking very pricey indeed for people who are possibly not as well off as you. Pretty sure you can find burgers a lot cheaper than that around town.


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## killer b (Apr 27, 2016)

editor said:


> If you're looking at burger prices, surely you should compare with the likes of McD/Burger King etc and not a pizza place.


Not really, no - most 'trendy' burger places might ape the conventions and look of a fast food chain restaurant, but they aren't actually fast food chain restaurants. 

I think comparing somewhere that makes fresh, handmade food on the premises with a multinational chain which produces it's food industrially isn't really fair (so actually the pizza hut comparison isn't fair either) - and I'll bet the places around town that churn out cheaper burgers are getting them in ready-made too.

For a mid-market dinner out - which is firmly what these places are aimed at - an upmarket burger joint is at the cheaper end of the scale: their relative affordability is one of the reasons they enjoy such popularity.


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## djdando (Apr 27, 2016)

editor said:


> Honest Burgers is £9.50 for a chicken burger, or £12.50 for the beef special. Add in onion rings for £3.50 and Ketchup for a £1 and any kind of drink, and things are looking very pricey indeed for people who are possibly not as well off as you. Pretty sure you can find burgers a lot cheaper than that around town.



I'm sorry but you cannot compare Honest / Dirty Burger with Maccies / BK for a whole host of reasons. 1) economies of scale afforded to conglomerates vs a small chain 2) the quality of their produce (something that seems to evade a lot of people on this board) is MASSIVELY different and what sets them apart. This produce costs more. Honest for instance use 21 day dry aged beef from longhorn cattle in Yorkshire supplied by the Ginger Pig. Maccies use what can only be described at cardboard for beef (although I did have one yesterday (guilty)). 

Its like comparing a ramen from Nanban to a sodding pot noodle. Seriously. 

PS. I have heard that Boom Burger are still planning on opening.


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## T & P (Apr 27, 2016)

editor said:


> Honest Burgers is £9.50 for a chicken burger, or £12.50 for the beef special. Add in onion rings for £3.50 and Ketchup for a £1 and any kind of drink, and things are looking very pricey indeed for people who are possibly not as well off as you. Pretty sure you can find burgers a lot cheaper than that around town.


£8.50 for a meal out is not expensive, whichever way you want to spin it. And please don't make assumptions about my wealth.


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## Lucy Fur (Apr 27, 2016)

I don't know when a "burger and chips" became a "meal out", but at £10-15 a pop (up) it obviously has. Thank fuck I'm a veggie and therefore by default, excluded from all this tom fuckery. Ten quids for a burger though.....seriously.... just wow.


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## Tankus (Apr 27, 2016)

We've just had a burger king opened in Caerphilly..... Dunno if that counts.....open 'till 10pm it is

.. really radical  ,but !.  ......isn't it


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## discobastard (Apr 27, 2016)

editor said:


> Honest Burgers is £9.50 for a chicken burger, or £12.50 for the beef special. Add in onion rings for £3.50 and Ketchup for a £1 and any kind of drink, and things are looking very pricey indeed for people who are possibly not as well off as you. Pretty sure you can find burgers a lot cheaper than that around town.


This apparent obsession with eating the cheaper/cheapest food you can find is a red herring. 

Yes, what you have quoted above is quite pricy for a burger. I just don't understand what point you're trying to make by saying that 'cheaper burgers are also available'. We all know that. 

I'm sure Dirty Burger aren't trying to compete with McDonalds or the Tulse Hill Cafe.

And yes, it's boring that there are so many of them. It's a fad, and some of them will eventually go out of business when people choose to do something else with their money.  Or all the people who 'aren't well off' as you say go to McDonalds.  

Are you saying Dirty Burger should choose to charge less or choose not to exist?


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## Casaubon (Apr 27, 2016)

bimble said:


> that chipboard furniture just looks completely shit though, doesn't it, not even remotely edgy.


That's not chipboard, it's Sterling board, which is great for trapping dirt and giving splinters. 
Much edgier than chipboard.


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## editor (Apr 27, 2016)

discobastard said:


> This apparent obsession with eating the cheaper/cheapest food you can find is a red herring.


It's not an 'obsession,' I was simply correcting this statement: " but most people who can afford eating out in the first place will be able to afford a burger in any of those places."

That is not true. Some people seem to have _no idea at all_ about how some people struggle to survive and that blowing £10+ on a single burger is not an option, no matter how tasty the brioche.


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## T & P (Apr 27, 2016)

Lucy Fur said:


> I don't know when a "burger and chips" became a "meal out", but at £10-15 a pop (up) it obviously has. Thank fuck I'm a veggie and therefore by default, excluded from all this tom fuckery. Ten quids for a burger though.....seriously.... just wow.


What is the difference between going to a burger place and have a nice burger meal, and going to, say, an Italian to have a pizza? Would you say the latter does not count as a meal out either?

A burger, certainly the kind that gets served in such restaurants, is a full meal in itself, just as a pizza will be for most people. I'd say that £8.50 is extraordinarily good value for money compared with the equivalent cost of countless other alternatives, from Italian to French to Japanese to Thai. Yes, of course one can buy cheaper burgers elsewhere. But not very nice ones, on the whole. And the point still remains that if someone is planning to have a meal out, paying less than a tenner for your main meal is as affordable an option as it gets.


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## T & P (Apr 27, 2016)

editor said:


> It's not an 'obsession,' I was simply correcting this statement: " but most people who can afford eating out in the first place will be able to afford a burger in any of those places."
> 
> That is not true. Some people seem to have _no idea at all_ about how some people struggle to survive and that blowing £10+ on a single burger is not an option, no matter how tasty the brioche.


And for those people, every other single restaurant in Brixton will also not be an option.

Should we convert every single eatery in Brixton to low-cost fast food then?


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## editor (Apr 27, 2016)

killer b said:


> For a mid-market dinner out - which is firmly what these places are aimed at - an upmarket burger joint is at the cheaper end of the scale: their relative affordability is one of the reasons they enjoy such popularity.


At least at McDs you get a seat and a table, unlike Honest Foods where you'll most likely have to queue for ages and then enjoy the prospect of eating your food on a bench in a busy thoroughfare. And this 'relative affordability' is fucking meaningless to a lot of people on my estate. A family of four could churn through £70+ at Honest. That's a weekly budget for food for some families. And just to put that in context: the surrounding area is one of the most deprived in the country.


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## editor (Apr 27, 2016)

T & P said:


> And for those people, every other single restaurant in Brixton will also not be an option.
> 
> Should we convert every single eatery in Brixton to low-cost fast food then?


Way to miss the point. The exact reverse is happening and that_ IS_ the point.


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## Lucy Fur (Apr 27, 2016)

T & P said:


> What is the difference between going to a burger place and have a nice burger meal, and going to, say, an Italian to have a pizza? Would you say the latter does not count as a meal out either?


Like I said, im a veggie so I don't really expect my opinion to count for toffee. I suppose I've always associated a burger as fast food, not really a sit down meal out type of affair, and as such find the idea of paying a tenner for a lips and arsehole death patty a bit steep. But each to there own.


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## killer b (Apr 27, 2016)

How much could a family of four churn through at Nandos?


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## editor (Apr 27, 2016)

discobastard said:


> Are you saying Dirty Burger should choose to charge less or choose not to exist?


They can do what they like - and they've got the backing to do just that - but I'm equally free to voice my concerns about a billionaire-owned business posturing as an edgy independent opening up on my street, and the growth of upmarket and (to many) unaffordable burger bars taking over Brixton. If it doesn't bother you, that's fine - everyone is free to voice their opinions here.


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## Lucy Fur (Apr 27, 2016)

killer b said:


> How much could a family of four churn through at Nandos?


About £35 (its about 8 for a main and two sides)


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## editor (Apr 27, 2016)

killer b said:


> How much could a family of four churn through at Nandos?


No idea, but they'd I'd imagine they'd get a proper seat and table and not be under pressure to vacate it once they've finished their meal.


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## irf520 (Apr 27, 2016)

bimble said:


> I think it's a cyclic thing, expensive dirty burgers are cool now as part of a posh young people's symbolic rebellion against too much pressure to consume only morally ethically pure food:
> A filthy burger and chips is like the opposite of an organic fair trade kale juice or something, its some sort of pathetic gesture that'll go away when people want to signal how good they are again instead of how edgy.



Is it just me that eats stuff because I like it rather than because I'm trying to "signal" something? I guess so.


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## bimble (Apr 27, 2016)

irf520 said:


> Is it just me that eats stuff because I like it rather than because I'm trying to "signal" something? I guess so.


There are fashions in food, that's all i meant really, just like there's fashions in other stuff.


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## killer b (Apr 27, 2016)

editor said:


> No idea, but they'd I'd imagine they'd get a proper seat and table and not be under pressure to vacate it once they've finished their meal.


You do have to conduct the strangest contortions on these threads: praising the value of McDonalds and the relaxed seating arrangements at Nandos in comparison to local small businesses. Very odd.


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## beesonthewhatnow (Apr 27, 2016)

These threads always end up really fucking weird.


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## editor (Apr 27, 2016)

killer b said:


> You do have to conduct the strangest contortions on these threads: praising the value of McDonalds and the relaxed seating arrangements at Nandos in comparison to local small businesses. Very odd.


I fucking hate McDs and everything they stand for, but for families on a low income - and there are many, many of them around where I live - they are at least affordable. These new businesses care little for those people, and most of the groovy new burger bars opening up aren't exactly family friendly too.

And to describe Dirty Burgers as a 'local small business' is laughably incorrect. They are in fact are part of a multi million worldwide business owned by an American billionaire. And 'little' Honest Burgers? Well, they're backed by a private equity firm to the tune of £7m and have multiple chains all over London with more set to open. Boom Burger is owned by a cash-loaded pubic schoolboy and so on and so on. Most of them are anything but local and anything but small, no matter how their marketing tries to pass themselves off.


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## Lucy Fur (Apr 27, 2016)

killer b said:


> You do have to conduct the strangest contortions on these threads: praising the value of McDonalds and the relaxed seating arrangements at Nandos in comparison to local small businesses. Very odd.


Are you suggesting that Honest or Dirty Burgers are "small local businesses"


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## editor (Apr 27, 2016)

Lucy Fur said:


> Are you suggesting that Honest or Dirty Burgers are "small local businesses"


And he called my posts 'odd'


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## ffsear (Apr 27, 2016)

I blame  Man Vs Food.  That program came on TV and everyone went Burger/pulled pork mental

Great program though!


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## Callie (Apr 27, 2016)

Pubic school boy heh


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## editor (Apr 27, 2016)

Callie said:


> Pubic school boy heh


Oh there's a great backstory to that on here somewhere. There's quite the old boy's network around Brixton these days. They tend to gather where there's money to be made. Like vultures.


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## killer b (Apr 27, 2016)

Lucy Fur said:


> Are you suggesting that Honest or Dirty Burgers are "small local businesses"


 I raised dirty burgers' status earlier in the thread. Lots of the places we're talking about are small local businesses though aren't they? Or is it only dirty burger and honest that are stoking editor's fires today?


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## editor (Apr 27, 2016)

killer b said:


> I raised dirty burgers' status earlier in the thread. Lots of the places we're talking about are small local businesses though aren't they?


Could you name all these 'small local businesses' that we've been talking about in this thread?


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## Lucy Fur (Apr 27, 2016)

killer b said:


> I raised dirty burgers' status earlier in the thread. Lots of the places we're talking about are small local businesses though aren't they? Or is it only dirty burger and honest that are stoking editor's fires today?


Which of the burger places would you describe as being a small local business?

editor we are now doubling up so I'm going to but out of this for a while.


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## killer b (Apr 27, 2016)

Aren't we talking about _trendy_ burger joints? IME they tend to be either local start ups or local/regional small to medium-sized chains. Are all of these massive multis?





editor said:


> Honest Burgers, Bukowski burgers, SHHH burgers, The Joint burgers, Baba Gs burgers, with Dirty Burger, Dip & Flip burger and Boom Burger all on their way.


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## bimble (Apr 27, 2016)

killer b said:


> Aren't we talking about _trendy_ burger joints?


hang on one cotton pickin second  - I thought there was no such thing as a trendy burger in your books?


----------



## Favelado (Apr 27, 2016)

editor said:


> I fucking hate McDs and everything they stand for, but for families on a low income - and there are many, many of them around where I live - they are at least affordable. These new businesses care little for those people, and most of the groovy new burger bars opening up aren't exactly family friendly too.



McDonalds is not affordable for people on low incomes. I think this is a myth. As a kid we went to McDonalds as a treat when we had money - once or twice a year. It costs 20 odd quid to feed three people there. No-one on benefits can afford that except as a treat.


----------



## killer b (Apr 27, 2016)

itallicisation indicates sarcasm


----------



## editor (Apr 27, 2016)

killer b said:


> Aren't we talking about _trendy_ burger joints? IME they tend to be either local start ups or local/regional small to medium-sized chains. Are all of these massive multis?


I haven't heard you mention many of them at all in this thread, but your super-twisty change in tune from "small local businesses" to "local/regional small to medium-sized chains" is duly noted and duly chortled at.


----------



## bimble (Apr 27, 2016)

killer b said:


> itallicisation indicates sarcasm


ah, apologies, didn't know that. As you were. I look forward to this thrilling debate being conclusively resolved.


----------



## editor (Apr 27, 2016)

Favelado said:


> McDonalds is not affordable for people on low incomes. I think this is a myth. As a kid we went to McDonalds as a treat when we had money - once or twice a year. It costs 20 odd quid to feed three people there. No-one on benefits can afford that except as a treat.


If they find McDs expensive, imagine what a family meal at Honest would cost them!


----------



## Favelado (Apr 27, 2016)

editor said:


> If they find McDs expensive, imagine what a family meal at Honest would cost them!



Of course. Eating out is basically out of reach full stop for many.


----------



## Winot (Apr 27, 2016)

SpamMisery said:


> Oh please can someone revive the "is a burger a meal" debate. Good times.



Your wish is granted.


----------



## Ms T (Apr 27, 2016)

To be fair, Honest Burger did start off as a local business, as did Franco Manca.


----------



## fredfelt (Apr 27, 2016)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> These threads always end up really fucking weird.



The conclusion I have reached is that the brixton McDonald's needs to start selling cereal, then everyone will be happy.


----------



## T & P (Apr 27, 2016)

Favelado said:


> Of course. Eating out is basically out of reach full stop for many.


Precisely the point I have been making. So targetting a particular type of restaurant for being out of reach for many, while completely ignoring many other restaurants that are actually for more fucking expensive and even more out of reach, will be causing many a thread reader's eyebrows to raise to Roger Moore levels.


----------



## bimble (Apr 27, 2016)

fredfelt said:


> The conclusion I have reached is that the brixton McDonald's needs to start selling cereal, then everyone will be happy.


That reminds me - did this get debated here somewhere? The arch-hipsters, posterboys for everything thats wrong with the world, came to brixton soup kitchen bearing fruit loops.


----------



## wtfftw (Apr 27, 2016)

Honest burger price includes the chips doesn't it?


----------



## twistedAM (Apr 27, 2016)

Ms T said:


> To be fair, Honest Burger did start off as a local business, as did Franco Manca.



Yeah I don't really see the difference between Honest Burger and Federation Coffee which was much lauded on here when it opened, apart from the former was a more successful business idea and got backing.
Coffee and a twee cake (no change out of a fiver at any of the "third wave places in Brixton) is well beyond the reach of many.


----------



## editor (Apr 27, 2016)

twistedAM said:


> Yeah I don't really see the difference between Honest Burger and Federation Coffee which was much lauded on here when it opened, apart from the former was a more successful business idea and got backing.
> Coffee and a twee cake (no change out of a fiver at any of the "third wave places in Brixton) is well beyond the reach of many.


For the record, the owners of Honest Burger are from Brighton and they were astute enough to move into Brixton at the right time. Not sure where Federation fits into this (they're not a multi million business now are they?)


----------



## Winot (Apr 27, 2016)

editor said:


> For the record, the owners of Honest Burger are from Brighton and they were astute enough to move into Brixton at the right time. Not sure where Federation fits into this (they're not a multi million business now are they?)



Haven't most of us moved to Brixton from somewhere else?


----------



## killer b (Apr 27, 2016)

editor said:


> I haven't heard you mention many of them at all in this thread, but your super-twisty change in tune from "small local businesses" to "local/regional small to medium-sized chains" is duly noted and duly chortled at.


Eh? I haven't moved any goal posts - I didn't say all burger joints are local small businesses in the first place. Some of them are though, and you're dismissing them with this thread as well as the bigger chains.


----------



## editor (Apr 27, 2016)

Winot said:


> Haven't most of us moved to Brixton from somewhere else?


Not to open up a business, no.


----------



## editor (Apr 27, 2016)

killer b said:


> Eh? I haven't moved any goal posts - I didn't say all burger joints are local small businesses in the first place. Some of them are though, and you're dismissing them with this thread as well as the bigger chains.


No, really. Look back at your own posts. You went from 'small local businesses' and when called up to name them you swiftly changed to '"local/regional small to medium-sized chains" and thought no one would notice the quantum leap.


----------



## killer b (Apr 27, 2016)

killer b said:


> local start ups or local/regional small to medium-sized chains.


is what I said. why are you excluding the 'local start up' bit?


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Apr 27, 2016)

This thread is just making me hungry now.


----------



## SpamMisery (Apr 27, 2016)

This is the new Pop Brixton thread. Strap in for 200 pages of arguing over nob all


----------



## killer b (Apr 27, 2016)

SpamMisery said:


> This is the new Pop Brixton thread. Strap in for 200 pages of arguing over nob all


fair point.


----------



## SpamMisery (Apr 27, 2016)

killer b said:


> fair point.



Don't let that stop anyone. I'm well known for revelling in these arguments.... so I'm told


----------



## killer b (Apr 27, 2016)

Nah, I'm done.


----------



## Winot (Apr 27, 2016)

killer b said:


> Nah, I'm done.



Gone so soon - and we hadn't even got into the differences between eating a burger from a plate and from a tray


----------



## killer b (Apr 27, 2016)

Winot said:


> Gone so soon - and we hadn't even got into the differences between eating a burger from a plate and from a tray


We've covered that in some detail in the long-running burger thread, and in the we want plates thread. Direct your queries there.


----------



## Winot (Apr 27, 2016)

killer b said:


> We've covered that in some detail in the long-running burger thread, and in the we want plates thread. Direct your queries there.



Cross-thread beef?


----------



## The Boy (Apr 27, 2016)

Winot said:


> Cross-thread *ground* beef?


----------



## editor (Apr 27, 2016)

Billionaire beef!


----------



## twistedAM (Apr 27, 2016)

SpamMisery said:


> This is the new Pop Brixton thread. Strap in for 200 pages of arguing over nob all



Thanks for reminding me I have work to do. Have fun everyone.


----------



## djdando (Apr 27, 2016)

editor said:


> At least at McDs you get a seat and a table, unlike Honest Foods where you'll most likely have to queue for ages and then enjoy the prospect of eating your food on a bench in a busy thoroughfare. And this 'relative affordability' is fucking meaningless to a lot of people on my estate. A family of four could churn through £70+ at Honest. That's a weekly budget for food for some families. And just to put that in context: the surrounding area is one of the most deprived in the country.



People queue for Honest because it's bloody good. 

Yes you can get a seat in Maccies next to a crack addict and a tramp who stinks of piss. 

We seem to have delved into one of these ridiculous arguments again. The fact is there is a whole range of wealth and affordability in Brixton. If someone can't afford a £7 burger from Dirty Burger there ain't a lot else they can afford in Brixton on the eating out front.


----------



## djdando (Apr 27, 2016)

Lucy Fur said:


> Like I said, im a veggie so I don't really expect my opinion to count for toffee. I suppose I've always associated a burger as fast food, not really a sit down meal out type of affair, and as such find the idea of paying a tenner for a lips and arsehole death patty a bit steep. But each to there own.



It's chuck steak. You obviously won't understand what that means being a veggie. But it is not eyes, feet, nails and brain. It is the best cut for a burger. Maccies however r


----------



## killer b (Apr 27, 2016)

Oh dear.


----------



## editor (Apr 27, 2016)

djdando said:


> It's chuck steak. You obviously won't understand what that means being a veggie.


----------



## editor (Apr 27, 2016)

djdando said:


> Yes you can get a seat in Maccies next to a crack addict and a tramp who stinks of piss.


Wow. What a fucking snob you are.


----------



## djdando (Apr 27, 2016)

I'm not a snob I am stating a fact. I, for my sins, frequent there fairly regularly. Yesterday there was a MASSIVE yellow police sign saying beware of your valuables as there have been many thefts recently.  That's a really nice welcome to a 'restaurant'. 

Also, this notion that you can only open a business in Brixton if you're from Brixton is just laughable.


----------



## editor (Apr 27, 2016)

djdando said:


> Yesterday there was a MASSIVE yellow police sign saying beware of your valuables as there have been many thefts recently.


This may come as a complete surprise to you, but thefts take place all over Brixton, even in and around expensive restaurants and shops, and not just where "crack addicts and tramps who stink of piss" supposedly dine.


djdando said:


> Also, this notion that you can only open a business in Brixton if you're from Brixton is just laughable.


Good job no one has suggested such a thing then.


----------



## felixgolightly (Apr 27, 2016)

McDs does have a bit of a problem at the moment. As relayed by the manager who was kindly helping to pick a bloodied victim up off the pavement opposite the other week.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 27, 2016)

Casaubon said:


> That's not chipboard, it's Sterling board, which is great for trapping dirt and giving splinters.
> Much edgier than chipboard.



Fucking awful to cut, too.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 27, 2016)

irf520 said:


> Is it just me that eats stuff because I like it rather than because I'm trying to "signal" something? I guess so.



There's stuff that I like to eat, that I don't. Not for reasons of virtue-signalling, but because I either can't afford it, or - if it's beef - because I can't digest it, and if I do eat it, I condemn myself to about 36 hours of excruciating bloody-arsed pain.
Virtue-signalling through food (especially kale juice, ffs!) is masochism.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 27, 2016)

killer b said:


> You do have to conduct the strangest contortions on these threads: praising the value of McDonalds and the relaxed seating arrangements at Nandos in comparison to local small businesses. Very odd.



Mind you, many of the supposed "local small businesses" mentioned on this thread, aren't.


----------



## uk benzo (Apr 27, 2016)

djdando said:


> Yes you can get a seat in Maccies next to a crack addict and a tramp who stinks of piss



As opposed to sitting next to a pissed up/coked up rah rah in a gourmet burger joint?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 27, 2016)

Callie said:


> Pubic school boy heh



Bet he serves pork loin chops.


----------



## killer b (Apr 27, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> Mind you, many of the supposed "local small businesses" mentioned on this thread, aren't.


I know not all the companies discussed on this thread are small businesses. I posted about one of them yesterday.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 27, 2016)

editor said:


> Oh there's a great backstory to that on here somewhere. There's quite the old boy's network around Brixton these days. They tend to gather where there's money to be made. Like vultures.



Yesterday Hoxton, today Brixton, tomorrow...Clacton?


----------



## isvicthere? (Apr 27, 2016)

djdando said:


> Yes you can get a seat in Maccies next to a crack addict and a tramp who stinks of piss.
> .



I think you've clearly identified which side you're on in the gentrification debate. 

Brixton Beach Boulevard (or whatever the fuck it's called) thattaway...


----------



## isvicthere? (Apr 27, 2016)

SpamMisery said:


> Don't let that stop anyone. I'm well known for revelling in these arguments.... so I'm told



You could always demonstrate your genuine indifference and ignore them.


----------



## editor (Apr 27, 2016)

uk benzo said:


> As opposed to sitting next to a pissed up/coked up rah rah in a gourmet burger joint?


Ah, that's because you get 'good' fucked up people and 'bad' fucked people. Just like people drinking cans in Windrush Square = bad, but people drinking Ritzy lager in Windrush Square = good.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 27, 2016)

Favelado said:


> McDonalds is not affordable for people on low incomes. I think this is a myth. As a kid we went to McDonalds as a treat when we had money - once or twice a year. It costs 20 odd quid to feed three people there. No-one on benefits can afford that except as a treat.



I was trying to explain to someone last week that Greebo and me have a daily food budget of about £5 all in for the two of us, and know people feeding three or four on less. Spending £15-20 between us on eating out is a couple-of-times-a-year rarity.

I'm aware that some people take these "trendy" fast food outlets as rubbing the noses of people like me in our relative poverty. Personally I think that's a shallow analysis. In my opinion they merely do the same thing all restaurants that dabble in "poor peoples' food" do - appropriate our food culture and turn it into something expensive for the indulgence of jaded palates, usually driving up the price of some ingredients in the process, and causing some poorer people to believe that their *authentic* cuisine is somehow not up to snuff.


----------



## editor (Apr 27, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> . Personally I think that's a shallow analysis. In my opinion they merely do the same thing all restaurants that dabble in "poor peoples' food" do - appropriate our food culture and turn it into something expensive for the indulgence of jaded palates, usually driving up the price of some ingredients in the process, and causing some poorer people to believe that their *authentic* cuisine is somehow not up to snuff.


The current trend for expensive "street food" being a case in point...


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 27, 2016)

Winot said:


> Gone so soon - and we hadn't even got into the differences between eating a burger from a plate and from a tray



Or, as would really set Orang Utan off, from a slate tile or a shovel.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 27, 2016)

djdando said:


> People queue for Honest because it's bloody good.
> 
> Yes you can get a seat in Maccies next to a crack addict and a tramp who stinks of piss.



If that's what happens to you, when you enter Ronald's emporium, I'd suggest that it's because of your magnetic personality. 


> We seem to have delved into one of these ridiculous arguments again. The fact is there is a whole range of wealth and affordability in Brixton. If someone can't afford a £7 burger from Dirty Burger there ain't a lot else they can afford in Brixton on the eating out front.



Which is why some of us *don't* eat out at all, or eat out very rarely.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 27, 2016)

uk benzo said:


> As opposed to sitting next to a pissed up/coked up rah rah in a gourmet burger joint?



Who'll usually stink of aftershave or beard oil *at least* as vile as the smell of tramp piss.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 27, 2016)

editor said:


> The current trend for expensive "street food" being a case in point...



My mum, who has always liked to try her hand at culinary "exotica" was a bit worried last time I spoke to her that the jerk seasoning recipe our neighbour Sis from Jamaica gave her 40 years ago, was so different from the recipe she'd seen on telly, and the ingredients on the expensive tub (about £7, apparently) of "Jerk Rub" at the supermarket. I had to explain to her that when food becomes trendy, "big food" and food entrepreneurs see a chance to charge an idiot tax.

I'm still convinced that Boomburger didn't open because Joshie thought he'd be lynched for stealing his nanny's recipes, mind.


----------



## deadringer (Apr 27, 2016)

These threads make me chuckle. Eat at somewhere like Khans, paying £7 for a basic curry, and that's before you've paid extra for rice, and extra for a drink, and no one bats an eyelid. Pay something similar for a well made quality burger because that's what you like, and you're some hipster yuppie rubbing your wonga in the faces of the poor.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Apr 27, 2016)

These chains occupy a specific social niche. They don't arrive (having got planning permission etc) coincidentally; restaurants are not equivalent based on average purchase expenditure.


----------



## isvicthere? (Apr 27, 2016)

It's a sad reflection IMO of how desperately Brixton has been reduced by über gentrification that people are arguing about places to eat as if that's all the area were about. 

Back in the days of Cooltan, the Queen, the Canning and caning it, poncey (or even ordinary) food would have been lower down the agenda.


----------



## editor (Apr 27, 2016)

FridgeMagnet said:


> These chains occupy a specific social niche. They don't arrive (having got planning permission etc) coincidentally; restaurants are not equivalent based on average purchase expenditure.


A lot of these places don't even provide the basics - simple things like proper tables, chairs, a toilet or even something as rudimentary as a plate and cutlery - yet still they charge more than restaurants.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Apr 27, 2016)

editor said:


> A lot of these places don't even provide the basics - simple things like proper tables, chairs, a toilet or even something as rudimentary as a plate and cutlery - yet still they charge more than restaurants.


Yeah, and that's part of the social niche that they support. They cater for specific groups—visitors or "locals" who don't spend much time interacting with the local area apart from nightspots.

That's why the whole "well this burger is not so much more expensive than a curry" is a false comparison just like "well you could buy some cheese and champagne for the same price as you could get a curry" was. They aren't the same things.


----------



## editor (Apr 27, 2016)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Yeah, and that's part of the social niche that they support. They cater for specific groups—visitors or "locals" who don't spend much time interacting with the local area apart from nightspots.
> 
> That's why the whole "well this burger is not so much more expensive than a curry" is a false comparison just like "well you could buy some cheese and champagne for the same price as you could get a curry" was. They aren't the same things.


That's pretty much nailed it, although I'm sure the erroneous comparisons will keep on getting trotted out ad infinitum.


----------



## Ms T (Apr 27, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> My mum, who has always liked to try her hand at culinary "exotica" was a bit worried last time I spoke to her that the jerk seasoning recipe our neighbour Sis from Jamaica gave her 40 years ago, was so different from the recipe she'd seen on telly, and the ingredients on the expensive tub (about £7, apparently) of "Jerk Rub" at the supermarket. I had to explain to her that when food becomes trendy, "big food" and food entrepreneurs see a chance to charge an idiot tax.
> 
> I'm still convinced that Boomburger didn't open because Joshie thought he'd be lynched for stealing his nanny's recipes, mind.


Is she still using the 40-year-old jerk rub?


----------



## felixgolightly (Apr 27, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> I was trying to explain to someone last week that Greebo and me have a daily food budget of about £5 all in for the two of us, and know people feeding three or four on less. Spending £15-20 between us on eating out is a couple-of-times-a-year rarity.
> 
> I'm aware that some people take these "trendy" fast food outlets as rubbing the noses of people like me in our relative poverty. Personally I think that's a shallow analysis. In my opinion they merely do the same thing all restaurants that dabble in "poor peoples' food" do - appropriate our food culture and turn it into something expensive for the indulgence of jaded palates, usually driving up the price of some ingredients in the process, and causing some poorer people to believe that their *authentic* cuisine is somehow not up to snuff.



Having been brought up on Spam fritters, spaghetti on toast and packet soups I look forward to seeing restaurants dabbling in poor people's food and driving up the cost of spam.  Although if the cost of toast goes through the roof I'll be a bit upset.


----------



## friendofdorothy (Apr 27, 2016)

I so rarely eat out these days I know nothing of all the nu brixton eateries (prefer to keep my spending cash for beer obviously) but last week being very drunk and in a bit of a state we ordered burgers in our local pub.   I was horrified to be asked how I wanted it cooked - rare, medium etc - to which I replied 'cooked. It's a burger not a steak, so I want it cooked properly'.

Do many of these new places do that - is this the fashion?   How do they justify ignoring basic food hygiene regs?


----------



## SpamMisery (Apr 27, 2016)

That applies to old school burgers which are basically offal. Nothing wrong with a burger being pink in the middle if it's good quality meat.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 27, 2016)

Ms T said:


> Is she still using the 40-year-old jerk rub?




The 40 year old recipe.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 27, 2016)

felixgolightly said:


> Having been brought up on Spam fritters, spaghetti on toast and packet soups I look forward to seeing restaurants dabbling in poor people's food and driving up the cost of spam.  Although if the cost of toast goes through the roof I'll be a bit upset.



Me too!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 27, 2016)

SpamMisery said:


> That applies to old school burgers which are basically offal. Nothing wrong with a burger being pink in the middle if it's good quality meat.



They're not "basically" offal. They're usually poorer cuts of beef - the trimmings from joints mixed in with chuck. EH inspectors have good enough kit nowadays that they can tell pretty quickly if someone has chucked a handful of lungs or brain into the ground beef to redden it up. Not worth the risk of getting closed down.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 27, 2016)

deadringer said:


> These threads make me chuckle. Eat at somewhere like Khans, paying £7 for a basic curry, and that's before you've paid extra for rice, and extra for a drink, and no one bats an eyelid. Pay something similar for a well made quality burger because that's what you like, and your some hipster yuppie rubbing your wonga in the faces of the poor.



Of course people bat an eyelid. Several people on this thread have already said they can't afford to eat out,whether at Khan's or at some burger joint.
You're making stuff up to fit your own preconceptions.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 27, 2016)

isvicthere? said:


> It's a sad reflection IMO of how desperately Brixton has been reduced by über gentrification that people are arguing about places to eat as if that's all the area were about.
> 
> Back in the days of Cooltan, the Queen, the Canning and caning it, poncey (or even ordinary) food would have been lower down the agenda.



If you'd been drinking in the Canning, you might not have had the teeth to worry much about food.


----------



## friendofdorothy (Apr 27, 2016)

Sorry for thread derail about food hygiene.



SpamMisery said:


> That applies to old school burgers which are basically offal. Nothing wrong with a burger being pink in the middle if it's good quality meat.


It applies whatever the contents of the burgers. Even if it hand-reared-named-farm-organic-vet-certified-hand-cut 'quality meat' - it can become dangerous if the surface is contaminated during butchery / transport /preparation. If it's a steak then searing the surface, even if the steak is bleu, will make it safe from food poisoning. Once the meat is minced all that contaminated surface with E coli, Staphylococcus aureus, etc, is nicely warming up in the middle of your pink uncooked burger. Yum, quality. 

Anyway back to my question - are rare cooked burgers common in brixton eateries?


----------



## Harbourite (Apr 27, 2016)

surely with a name like dirty burger, environmental health will all be all over them like flies round faecal matter

these billionaire hipsters may have beards, trendy pumps and tons of cash - but not an ounce of common sense


----------



## friendofdorothy (Apr 27, 2016)

Harbourite said:


> surely with a name like dirty burger, environmental health will all be all over them like flies round faecal matter
> 
> these billionaire hipsters may have beards, trendy pumps and tons of cash - but not an ounce of common sense


wonder if they have a score on the door sign - re hygiene standards, Anyone know?


----------



## sleaterkinney (Apr 27, 2016)

friendofdorothy said:


> Sorry for thread derail about food hygiene.
> 
> Anyway back to my question - are rare cooked burgers common in brixton eateries?


You can usually say how you want it but it's rare to get one of these burgers cooked all the way through.


----------



## editor (Apr 27, 2016)

friendofdorothy said:


> wonder if they have a score on the door sign - re hygiene standards, Anyone know?


I'm sure the hygiene standards will be excellent. The 'Dirty' name is just more of the usual tiresome ironic/edgy posturing which seems to go down well with the kind of crowd these places are likely to attract.


----------



## T & P (Apr 27, 2016)

Interesting to take a look at the Buzz listings of restuarants in Brixton. A meal in many of them, including some of those recommended by Buzz, would cost you at the very least the same and often significantly more than at any of the evil burger restaurants.

I look forward to the denouncement of such establishments as Boqueria, Khan's or Ichiban as completely unaffordable to many of the people living in the area.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Apr 27, 2016)

Is it somehow a requirement to ignore everything posted on a subject now?


----------



## editor (Apr 27, 2016)

T & P said:


> Interesting to take a look at the Buzz listings of restuarants in Brixton. A meal in many of them, including some of those recommended by Buzz, would cost you at the very least the same and often significantly more than at any of the evil burger restaurants.
> 
> I look forward to the denouncement of such establishments as Boqueria, Khan's or Ichiban as completely unaffordable to many of the people living in the area.


Why are the restaurant reviews on a different site written by someone who doesn't post here so 'interesting' to you?

Oh, wait, I get it. It's the usual ad hominem stuff because your arguments aren't doing so well here and I'm involved with the site. That must make me a blazing hypocrite or something, even though the opinions expressed in the reviews have nothing to do with me at all.

It's all so fucking tiresome and predictable now.


----------



## T & P (Apr 27, 2016)

Well, not quite. The restaurant listings are a very useful and informative resource of venues serving Brixton- Buzz has always been an excellent service in that respect. So for the purpose of finding a comprehensive list of restaurants in Brixton, BB is the place to go- that is nothing but a compliment of the site.

The Buzz-recommended restaurants I found interesting because at all of those I mentioned you would almost certainly end up paying more for a main meal than you would at one of the burger restaurants. But regardless of whether the recommendation came from you or someone else, do you agree that the likes of Boqueria and Khan's are unaffordable to many people living in your estate and elsewhere in the area?


----------



## editor (Apr 27, 2016)

T & P said:


> The Buzz-recommended restaurants I found interesting because at all of those I mentioned you would almost certainly end up paying more for a main meal than you would at one of the burger restaurants. But regardless of whether the recommendation came from you or someone else, do you agree that the likes of Boqueria and Khan's are unaffordable to many people living in your estate and elsewhere in the area?


Ah, so after your attempt to drag the Buzz reviews into this failed to hit paydirt, you're now mentioning Khans because you know that I go there once a year? Jeez, that's even more tiresome than your last post. 

Anyway, and I do believe FM has already destroyed that particularly line of argument. I certainly can't be arsed to indulge you:



FridgeMagnet said:


> Yeah, and that's part of the social niche that they support. They cater for specific groups—visitors or "locals" who don't spend much time interacting with the local area apart from nightspots.
> 
> That's why the whole "well this burger is not so much more expensive than a curry" is a false comparison just like "well you could buy some cheese and champagne for the same price as you could get a curry" was. They aren't the same things.


----------



## T & P (Apr 27, 2016)

LOL, who is moving the goalposts now? I'm pretty sure we've been discussing affordability as the main issue here for 99% of the length of this thread.

In any case, even if we were to allow for the goalpost repositioning, the argument would only apply to those burger places you deem to be too uncomfortable. Unless you are suggesting that every single one of these burger restaurants has the same allegedly uncomfortable set-up as that of Honest Burgers (which seems extremely unlikely), will you now agree that either

-Any burger restaurant with a reasonably comfortable setting is in fact NOT unaffordable to many people in the area

or that

- The great majority of restaurants in Brixton ARE unaffordable to many people in the area?

One of those statements must be true. No two ways about it.


----------



## Ms T (Apr 27, 2016)

friendofdorothy said:


> Sorry for thread derail about food hygiene.
> 
> 
> It applies whatever the contents of the burgers. Even if it hand-reared-named-farm-organic-vet-certified-hand-cut 'quality meat' - it can become dangerous if the surface is contaminated during butchery / transport /preparation. If it's a steak then searing the surface, even if the steak is bleu, will make it safe from food poisoning. Once the meat is minced all that contaminated surface with E coli, Staphylococcus aureus, etc, is nicely warming up in the middle of your pink uncooked burger. Yum, quality.
> ...


What about steak tartare, which I love and has never given me any issues.

Most places do no serve rare burgers as far as I am aware, for food safety reasons. I am usually asked if medium is ok, ie a little bit pink in the middle.


----------



## Ms T (Apr 28, 2016)

Christ, this (burger) bunfight is tedious.


----------



## editor (Apr 28, 2016)

Back on to pricey burgers, the Blues Kitchen is offering this one for a hefty £15.50 with a shot thrown in:


> THE PISKEY WHICKLE – A 7oz Dry-aged Angus & Shorthorn steak patty topped with American cheese, pickled red cabbage, house smoked pastrami, gem lettuce and mustard & dill aioli in a toasted rye & pumpkin seed bun crowned with fried pickles and served alongside a Four Roses pickle-back.


----------



## Favelado (Apr 28, 2016)

It's taken a long time to get to this point. Would I be right in thinking this all began when the first Gourmet Burger kitchen opened on Northcote Road about 15 years ago? That's the first place I'd ever heard of that did a more upmarket burger.

It seems to be saturation point now though. Not all of these places will disappear but people will get tired sooner or later.


----------



## snowy_again (Apr 28, 2016)

So, perhaps instead of impotent web based complaining what do you propose doing about it? 

Stand as a councillor?
Set u75 up as a better platform to challenge change of use planning apps?
Set up a CSR standard for all new businesses to support the local community?

This thread reads a bit like a 'You Won't Believe What's Happening in SW9' buzzfeed clickbait. 

You evidently care about where you moved to and support


----------



## xenon (Apr 28, 2016)

This is probably been said about 15 times but I don't care... Good thread for a bunfight.


----------



## Favelado (Apr 28, 2016)

Let them eat brioche.


----------



## snowy_again (Apr 28, 2016)

But it feels like your energies might be better spent off here than arguing the same old tropes. 

There are many experiences of Brixton. Disparity of income had been here for generations. A mixed community us what made this the place we choose to live. There is the current bubble & it's obvious potential descent into bland corporate mass, but that started not in 2010 but 20 years ago when the likes of you and i started running events here cos it was cheap, easy, fun & different.


----------



## editor (Apr 28, 2016)

snowy_again said:


> So, perhaps instead of impotent web based complaining what do you propose doing about it?


Aha! A fresh take on the ad hominen attack. I'm impotent! I'm not doing enough! Nice one!


snowy_again said:


> This thread reads a bit like a 'You Won't Believe What's Happening in SW9' buzzfeed clickbait.


Actually it's just a discussion about local issues on a local forum. That's what it's here for.

Sometimes threads can lead to decisions being made, actions taken, influence exerted, and other times people can just have a laugh or a bunfight or a good moan. Whatever people like. It's up to them.


----------



## snowy_again (Apr 28, 2016)

This is my first post on this thread, I also said you do more than your share to support where you live. For a change don't see questions as a challenge or criticism.


----------



## editor (Apr 28, 2016)

snowy_again said:


> This is my first post on this thread, I also said you do more than your share to support where you live. For a change don't see questions as a challenge or criticism.


The topic is about the _growth of burger bars in Brixton_, not my 'impotent web based complaining,' not whether I should stand as a councillor and not a discussion on how my energies may best be expended. And it certainly isn't an invitation for you to get on your high horse and lecture me to not "see questions as a challenge or criticism"..."for a change."

Just keep your snarky bullshit to yourself, please. Thanks awfully.


----------



## editor (Apr 28, 2016)

Favelado said:


> Let them eat brioche.


It's already getting hard to remember life in the Pre-Brioche-Bun era.


----------



## Winot (Apr 28, 2016)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Yeah, and that's part of the social niche that they support. They cater for specific groups—visitors or "locals" who don't spend much time interacting with the local area apart from nightspots.
> 
> That's why the whole "well this burger is not so much more expensive than a curry" is a false comparison just like "well you could buy some cheese and champagne for the same price as you could get a curry" was. They aren't the same things.



Burger joint as 'signifier'. It's an elegant argument, because once it's been decided that a place is a signifier, it doesn't matter what people say about the place, you can just nod sagely and put them down as pro-gentrification (or whatever the 'signified' is).  It also allows the signified to be attacked by means of an attack on the signifier - so much more palatable to say 'I don't like all these new burger places' than to say 'I don't like people who aren't like me moving into my area'. The only downside of course is that it can come across as a bit superior, particularly to the people who have lived in the area for a while, haven't studied semiotics, and happen to like burgers.


----------



## T & P (Apr 28, 2016)

Ms T said:


> This is probably been said about 15 times but I don't care... Good thread for *driving up* *web traffic numbers.*


 Corrected that for you.


----------



## editor (Apr 28, 2016)

T & P said:


> Corrected that for you.


I'm getting fed up with this infantile accusation. If I was preoccupied with driving up web traffic (why?!) there are far, far better ways of doing it, so please keep your ignorant and disruptive bullshit off this thread.


----------



## isvicthere? (Apr 28, 2016)

Can I just say - with respect to all on this thread - that a burger bunfight is no match for a FEB bunfight?


----------



## friendofdorothy (Apr 28, 2016)

Ms T said:


> What about steak tartare, which I love and has never given me any issues.
> 
> Most places do no serve rare burgers as far as I am aware, for food safety reasons. I am usually asked if medium is ok, ie a little bit pink in the middle.



You're brave! 

a little pink in middle is just uncooked, so  be careful.  Perhaps a risk a high quality restraunt is willing to take (I wouldn't).

I worry that places like units in the village with very limited food prep space and shared toilet facilities, are just being foolish and possibly amateurs, ignorant of hygiene regs.


----------



## Ms T (Apr 28, 2016)

friendofdorothy said:


> You're brave!
> 
> a little pink in middle is just uncooked, so  be careful.  Perhaps a risk a high quality restraunt is willing to take (I wouldn't).
> 
> I worry that places like units in the village with very limited food prep space and shared toilet facilities, are just being foolish and possibly amateurs, ignorant of hygiene regs.



Honest Burger are churning out medium rare burgers at a rate of knots. I think they know what they're doing. I only eat steak tartare in France, or in fairly decent restaurants. I've never been ill.


----------



## Mr Retro (Apr 28, 2016)

Ms T said:


> What about steak tartare, which I love and has never given me any issues.
> 
> Most places do no serve rare burgers as far as I am aware, for food safety reasons. I am usually asked if medium is ok, ie a little bit pink in the middle.


The difference is with burgers surface bacteria is minced in, patties are formed and the burgers often sit, allowing the bacteria to grow before cooking. 

In a trusted restaurant steak tartare will most likely be make from beef that's of good quality from a good source, will be well rinsed, patted dry, well salted, hand chopped, served and eaten so quickly bacteria hasn't a chance to grow. Or the amount that has is negligible for a healthy adult.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Apr 28, 2016)

A good burger should be lightly pink in the middle. No arguments.


----------



## friendofdorothy (Apr 28, 2016)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> A good burger should be lightly pink in the middle. No arguments.


I think anyone who has ever studied food safety level 1 would disagree. Perhaps most of the 'chefs' in these burger places have not, which is food for thought. If you are a healthy adult food poisoning can make you ill. If you are old, very young, frail or immune deficient it can kill you.

Enjoy your burger.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Apr 28, 2016)

friendofdorothy said:


> I think anyone who has ever studied food safety level 1 would disagree. Perhaps most of the 'chefs' in these burger places have not, which is food for thought. If you are a healthy adult food poisoning can make you ill. If you are old, very young, frail or immune deficient it can kill you.
> 
> Enjoy your burger.


*shrugs*

I've been eating them that way for years. So far, all good.


----------



## wtfftw (Apr 28, 2016)

FSA publishes new proposals on serving rare burgers | Food Standards Agency


----------



## twentythreedom (Apr 28, 2016)

isvicthere? said:


> Can I just say - with respect to all on this thread - that a burger bunfight is no match for a FEB bunfight?


Fried slice


----------



## Jesterburger (Apr 28, 2016)

I'm all for a rare steak, as rare as possible preferably - but an over-rare burger just means a bloody mess that disintegrates the bun. Who wants that?


----------



## wurlycurly (Apr 28, 2016)

friendofdorothy said:


> I think anyone who has ever studied food safety level 1 would disagree. Perhaps most of the 'chefs' in these burger places have not, which is food for thought. If you are a healthy adult food poisoning can make you ill. If you are old, very young, frail or immune deficient it can kill you.
> 
> Enjoy your burger.



You're absolutely right. These dudes were wrong and it cost them £135,000. 

Restaurant owners face £135,000 bill after losing landmark court case


----------



## T & P (Apr 28, 2016)

Uncooked chicken is very dodgy indeed, but I remain sceptical about the actual risk of eating rare, or even 'blue' beef. Been doing it all my life and so far so good for me and for everyone I know who regularly eats rare beef. Indeed, I'd be more than happy to sign a waiver if a restaurant required one to cook my meat rare.


----------



## SpamMisery (Apr 28, 2016)

I think the point is a rare steak is not much of a risk, but a rare burger is a bit more of a risk as, after being minced, the meat has time to sit and develop bacteria before being 'pattied' or cooked. Tbh, it's worth the risk and is always balanced against the particular establishment you're at. Eg I'll eat rare burgers at Honest, but not if cooked by this guy:


----------



## twentythreedom (Apr 28, 2016)

> I'd be more than happy to sign a waiver if a restaurant required one to cook my meat rare.


Fucking hell you must be one cool, hard bastard. I wouldn't dare commit my signature to such a document


----------



## Yossarian (Apr 28, 2016)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> *shrugs*
> 
> I've been eating them that way for years. So far, all good.



You never get the shits?


----------



## xenon (Apr 28, 2016)

Oh FFS Rare red meat is fine. Assuming fresh and clean preparation circumstances. Most fast food kitchens are cleaner than mine. I reckon. 
Gentrification , property prices is a driver for 'posh street food.' 

Wanker marketing speech always worthy of sniping at though IMO.

 Sorry friendofdorothy, I was well hungry when I wrote this. Later I got a shit pizza.


----------



## friendofdorothy (Apr 28, 2016)

T & P said:


> Uncooked chicken is very dodgy indeed, but I remain sceptical about the actual risk of eating rare, or even 'blue' beef. Been doing it all my life and so far so good for me and for everyone I know who regularly eats rare beef. Indeed, I'd be more than happy to sign a waiver if a restaurant required one to cook my meat rare.


blue beef steak is ok - the outside of the food gets hot enough to kill bacteria, that is the point. 
Its the fashion for uncooked burgers that baffles me.


----------



## friendofdorothy (Apr 28, 2016)

wurlycurly said:


> You're absolutely right. These dudes were wrong and it cost them £135,000.
> 
> Restaurant owners face £135,000 bill after losing landmark court case


Ha.


----------



## T & P (Apr 28, 2016)

twentythreedom said:


> Fucking hell you must be one cool, hard bastard. I wouldn't dare commit my signature to such a document


I wouldn't naturally want to agree to restaurants lowering their hygiene standards and get away with it legally, but if it came to a reputable, clean restaurant being reluctant to cook the meat to my requirement because they're fearful of of lawsuits, yeah I'd be happy to sign.

I'm happy to take a calculated risk so long as the restaurant maintains good hygiene standards and doesn't contribute to the risk through negligence, and in the unlikely case I did get food poisoning solely through the meat not being cooked enough, I'd happily waive any right to sue for negligence. Certainly if it ever came to that or restaurants refusing to cook anything less than medium, never mind well done.


----------



## SpamMisery (Apr 28, 2016)

Many cultures will look at you in disgust if you ask for well done. In fact, in France, I think the phrase 'bien cuit' has been banned.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Apr 29, 2016)

Yossarian said:


> You never get the shits?


Not from burgers as far as I can tell. The multiple pints of beer that goes with them, maybe


----------



## editor (Apr 29, 2016)

friendofdorothy said:


> Ha.








Photographer: "Yes, that's good. Hold the burgers to the camera. A bit higher. Now look concerned. Yes! Now, just a bit more concern and - click - perfect!"


----------



## snowy_again (Apr 29, 2016)

That photo doesn't score highly on the Daily Mail Sad Face scale though - about a 3/10.


----------



## fishfinger (Apr 29, 2016)

snowy_again said:


> That photo doesn't score highly on the Daily Mail Sad Face scale though - about a 3/10.


How about now?


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Apr 29, 2016)

My kid loves steak tartare.

When we go to Paris he is treated like a star. First time I saw him eat it he was 10 and the staff came out to watch and see if he was really gonna finish it. We got free drinks and dessert. He first had it when he was 8.

What make a burger dirty?


----------



## killer b (Apr 29, 2016)

it's nonsense marketing, intended to give the burger some veneer of transgressive cool.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Apr 29, 2016)

Damn. I thought it might lick my balls.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Apr 29, 2016)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Damn. I thought it might lick my balls.


----------



## killer b (Apr 29, 2016)

That is the connection they're hoping you'll make in your mind, yes.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Apr 29, 2016)

killer b said:


> That is the connection they're hoping you'll make in your mind, yes.



Success on a plate then....


----------



## Janh (Apr 29, 2016)

"PISKEY WHICKLE ... with American cheese", an oxymoron if ever I saw one.

That orange crap shouldn't appear on a £15 anything.


----------



## deadringer (Apr 29, 2016)

This thread is making me want a big fat burger right now. Been eating healthy all week and now ready for a blow out!


----------



## editor (Apr 29, 2016)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Success on a plate then....


Or, more likely, a piece of cardboard.


----------



## T & P (Apr 29, 2016)

deadringer said:


> This thread is making me want a big fat burger right now. Been eating healthy all week and now ready for a blow out!


I had one for lunch at work yesterday. I very rarely have burgers when I'm at work, and this thread is entirely to blame for it. It was a juicy GKB cheddar cheese burger. Very nice too. Tempted to have another today.


----------



## aka (Apr 30, 2016)

wurlycurly said:


> You're absolutely right. These dudes were wrong and it cost them £135,000.
> 
> Restaurant owners face £135,000 bill after losing landmark court case


Not wrong as such, just not doing their HACCP correctly; let's be honest those burgers look bloody lovely..

2 puns for the price of one.


----------



## aka (Apr 30, 2016)

T & P said:


> I had one for lunch at work yesterday. I very rarely have burgers when I'm at work, and this thread is entirely to blame for it. It was a juicy GKB cheddar cheese burger. Very nice too. Tempted to have another today.


gah - now *I* want one of those.  GBK GBK GBK GBK!


----------



## Lizzy Mac (Apr 30, 2016)

This thread has put me off meat burgers for life.


----------



## bimble (May 1, 2016)

Jay Rayner's take on the posh burger debate (actually it was last week, but still): 
"Oh, stop all that raging and shouting. There’s no reason why a dish with humble beginnings can’t realise noble ambitions.. When a food object becomes subject to the caprices of fashion, it’s easy for its basic virtues to be lost. We declare ourselves “so over” them. We roll our eyes theatrically at each new opening. We gasp when some come slapped with a sizeable price tag."


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 1, 2016)

bimble said:


> Jay Rayner's take on the posh burger debate (actually it was last week, but still):
> "Oh, stop all that raging and shouting. There’s no reason why a dish with humble beginnings can’t realise noble ambitions.. When a food object becomes subject to the caprices of fashion, it’s easy for its basic virtues to be lost. We declare ourselves “so over” them. We roll our eyes theatrically at each new opening. We gasp when some come slapped with a sizeable price tag."



Jay has a lot more spending spondulicks than many Brixton residents, so his gasp is probably more muted than mine.


----------



## bimble (May 1, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> Jay has a lot more spending spondulicks than many Brixton residents, so his gasp is probably more muted than mine.


He gets paid to eat in restaurants and write about it afterwards , so yes, probably a bit weak, compared to you VP, on the politics of the burger.


----------



## editor (May 1, 2016)

bimble said:


> He gets paid to eat in restaurants and write about it afterwards , so yes, probably a bit weak, compared to you VP, on the politics of the burger.


He's also a public school boy from a rather well to do family so I'd imagine he may well have a slightly skewed take on what counts as 'affordable' to some Brixton residents.


----------



## Mr Retro (May 1, 2016)

bimble said:


> He gets paid to eat in restaurants and write about it afterwards , so yes, probably a bit weak, compared to you VP, on the politics of the burger.


He used to post here the odd time but bowed out when he realised trying to get a decent exchange of views was as likely as picking up mercury with a fork.


----------



## bimble (May 1, 2016)

Mr Retro said:


> He used to post here the odd time but bowed out when he realised trying to get a decent exchange of views was as likely as picking up mercury with a fork.


 I'm a fan of his, I like him a lot. Cos he's really good at writing and he makes me laugh.


----------



## editor (May 1, 2016)

bimble said:


> I'm a fan of his, I like him a lot.


I seem to recall him being rather sarky about this site on Twitter not that I'm actually bothered by that. He's entitled to his opinion just as people are entitled to an opinion about him here.


----------



## Mr Retro (May 1, 2016)

bimble said:


> I'm a fan of his, I like him a lot. Cos he's really good at writing and he makes me laugh.


So am I, so do I. Agree.


----------



## 8ball (May 1, 2016)

bimble said:


> I'm a fan of his, I like him a lot. Cos he's really good at writing and he makes me laugh.



You are worse than Hitler.


----------



## bimble (May 1, 2016)

This is my favourite i think, and shows him to be not exactly an ignorant apolitical twit, even though he gets paid to eat in restaurants and is therefore a member of the elite etc. But he's written fiction proper books too that are worth a look.
Dorchester Grill: restaurant review | Jay Rayner


----------



## 8ball (May 1, 2016)

bimble said:


> Jay Rayner's take on the posh burger debate (actually it was last week, but still):
> "Oh, stop all that raging and shouting. There’s no reason why a dish with humble beginnings can’t realise noble ambitions.. When a food object becomes subject to the caprices of fashion, it’s easy for its basic virtues to be lost. We declare ourselves “so over” them. We roll our eyes theatrically at each new opening. We gasp when some come slapped with a sizeable price tag."



Nice little mention of Annie's Burger Shack in Nottingham, which is rather nice.

That mackerel burger at the main place he went to sounds lush.


----------



## Favelado (May 1, 2016)

bimble said:


> This is my favourite i think, and shows him to be not exactly an ignorant apolitical twit, even though he gets paid to eat in restaurants and is therefore a member of the elite etc. But he's written fiction proper books too that are worth a look.
> Dorchester Grill: restaurant review | Jay Rayner



His dad was a restauranteur and his mum was a journalist. Wonder how he got his job?


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## Mr Retro (May 2, 2016)

Favelado said:


> His dad was a restauranteur and his mum was a journalist


Makes him perfect for a food critic then


----------



## Ms T (May 2, 2016)

bimble said:


> I'm a fan of his, I like him a lot. Cos he's really good at writing and he makes me laugh.


I like him too. I met his wife recently, and she's lovely.

He's also lived round here for years, since at least 1995.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (May 2, 2016)

Favelado said:


> His dad was a restauranteur and his mum was a journalist. Wonder how he got his job?



Unlike the burger he did not come from humble beginnings.


----------



## T & P (May 2, 2016)

He is as qualified to judge what might or might not constitute 'affordable' for others as every last poster in this forum, of course.


----------



## boohoo (May 2, 2016)

sleaterkinney said:


> Can we get decent chips yet though?



Best chips are in the suburbs - Thornton Heath way.


----------



## editor (May 2, 2016)

People brought up in wealth are truly famed for their ability to understand the plight of those lower down the social scale and those struggling on low budgets. You only have to look at the Tories for proof of that. Oh, wait.....


----------



## T & P (May 2, 2016)

The poorest people in our society couldn't even afford one meal, no, one _pint_ out a month, so those of us who are fortunate enough to afford it are certainly not any more qualified to decide on their behalf what constitutes for them an affordable burger.


----------



## Favelado (May 2, 2016)

T & P said:


> He is as qualified to judge what might or might not constitute 'affordable' for others as every last poster in this forum, of course.



He can have his own opinions, but not his own facts.


----------



## Favelado (May 2, 2016)

T & P said:


> The poorest people in our society couldn't even afford one meal, no, one _pint_ out a month, so those of us who are fortunate enough to afford it are certainly not any more qualified to decide on their behalf what constitutes for them an affordable burger.



We are if we lived it as kids and he didn't! I can afford  to eat out now but went to a restaurant about twice in 10 years as a kid. I don't think Jay will really have his head round that.


----------



## urbanspaceman (May 2, 2016)

Favelado said:


> We are if we lived it as kids and he didn't! I can afford  to eat out now but went to a restaurant about twice in 10 years as a kid. I don't think Jay will really have his head round that.


Twice in 10 years ? 

You were lucky.


----------



## Saul Goodman (May 2, 2016)

djdando said:


> Yes you can get a seat in Maccies next to a crack addict and a tramp who stinks of piss.


I'm sure tramps all over Brixton will be breathing a collective sigh of relief, knowing they won't be dining with you.


----------



## 8ball (May 2, 2016)

editor said:


> People brought up in wealth are truly famed for their ability to understand the plight of those lower down the social scale and those struggling on low budgets. You only have to look at *Che Guevara or Karl Marx or Peter Kropotkin* for proof of that.



Nice to be able to fix up some of the more seriously execrable drivel on this site from time to time.


----------



## editor (May 3, 2016)

8ball said:


> Nice to be able to fix up some of the more seriously execrable drivel on this site from time to time.


There's no doubting that you've absolutely nailed the argument there with that topical and relevant analysis, and make no mistake!


----------



## editor (May 3, 2016)

T & P said:


> The poorest people in our society couldn't even afford one meal, no, one _pint_ out a month, so those of us who are fortunate enough to afford it are certainly not any more qualified to decide on their behalf what constitutes for them an affordable burger.


----------



## T & P (May 3, 2016)




----------



## Nanker Phelge (May 3, 2016)

Jay Rayner, rich bloke, says charging loads for food from 'humble beginnings' is absolutely fine, darling.

Fine for who exactly?


----------



## deadringer (May 3, 2016)

T & P said:


> The poorest people in our society couldn't even afford one meal, no, one _pint_ out a month, so those of us who are fortunate enough to afford it are certainly not any more qualified to decide on their behalf what constitutes for them an affordable burger.




This is spot on. It's highly patronising when people who can afford to eat at these places are the ones denouncing them collectively too expensive for the poor, particularly when it's a business they don't particularly like.

Incidentally I had the (mis)fortune to find myself in a TGI Fridays on Sunday. Now that's what I'd call an expensive burger, couldn't find anything under £13


----------



## skyscraper101 (May 3, 2016)

I reckon the Speedy Noodle was just ahead of its time and in the future we'll see pop up dirty noodle joints replacing Foxtons in Brixton.


----------



## editor (May 3, 2016)

deadringer said:


> This is spot on. It's highly patronising when people who can afford to eat at these places are the ones denouncing them collectively too expensive for the poor, particularly when it's a business they don't particularly like.


FYI: I can't afford to graze on burgers at £12 a pop, neither can I afford an evening knocking back £10 cocktails at the Shrub & Shutter. I doubt if most of the people on my estate can either.

I don't think people forfeit the right to make adverse comments about upmarket and unaffordable trendy burger joints opening up in deprived areas just because they're not struggling on a very low income themselves.


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (May 3, 2016)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Jay Rayner, rich bloke, says charging loads for food from 'humble beginnings' is absolutely fine, darling.
> 
> Fine for who exactly?



People who can afford it.


----------



## T & P (May 3, 2016)

editor said:


> FYI: I can't afford to graze on burgers at £12 a pop, neither can I afford an evening knocking back £10 cocktails at the Shrub & Shutter. I doubt if most of the people on my estate can either.
> 
> I don't think people forfeit the right to make adverse comments about upmarket and *unaffordable* trendy burger joints opening up in deprived areas just because they're not struggling on a very low income themselves.



Most of these restaurants offer burgers (with chips) at around £8, but well done for ignoring that and picking the most expensive burger in their menus as a reference price.

And you are again making assumptions as to what constitutes unaffordable. The fact is every single bar, pub and restaurant, not just the businesses you don't like, are just as unaffordable to the poorest people in your estate, and elsewhere.


----------



## editor (May 3, 2016)

T & P said:


> Most of these restaurants offer burgers (with chips) at around £8, but well done for ignoring that and picking the most expensive burger in their menus as a reference price.


Remind me: How much does Honest Burgers charge for burgers and chips for a family of four? And would you like to do a chip portion size comparison between them and, say, Jimmy's Plaice ?


T & P said:


> The fact is every single bar, pub and restaurant, not just the businesses you don't like, are just as unaffordable to the poorest people in your estate, and elsewhere.


What?


----------



## T & P (May 3, 2016)

editor said:


> Remind me: How much does Honest Burgers charge for burgers and chips for a family of four? And would you like to do a chip portion size comparison between them and, say, Jimmy's Plaice ?


 Presumably they charge 4 times as much as for a party of 1? My maths are a bit rusty though.

No matter how much spin you want to put on it, £8 for a main meal out in a restaurant is pretty much affordable for the great majorty of people. Of course some people can't afford it- but then they could not afford a meal out in *any other restaurant*. So feel free to criticise burger joints because you don't like them or the people who run them/ frequent them, but please drop the affordability issue, because then you must also criticise every other damn restaurant (and bar, and pub, and late licence venue) in Brixton as unaffordable to the poorest people in the area, since they could not afford in a million years to patronise them.


----------



## 8ball (May 3, 2016)

editor said:


> There's no doubting that you've absolutely nailed the argument there with that topical and relevant analysis, and make no mistake!



Your hard-hitting journalistic skills and steely integrity would likely be better employed in the area of writing fridge magnet slogans, or perhaps bumper stickers.


----------



## editor (May 3, 2016)

8ball said:


> Your hard-hitting journalistic skills and steely integrity would likely be better employed in the area of writing fridge magnet slogans, or perhaps bumper stickers.


Bit sad seeing you reduced to such a low level of ad hominems.


----------



## 8ball (May 3, 2016)

editor said:


> Bit sad seeing you reduced to such a low level of ad hominems.



The ironing - it burns. 

Still, encouraging to see you upping your game to the same low level of ad hominems.


----------



## editor (May 3, 2016)

T & P said:


> No matter how much spin you want to put on it, £8 for a main meal out in a restaurant is pretty much affordable for the great majorty of people.


Honest Burgers really isn't what I'd call a restaurant. There's no cutlery, no toilets, barely any tables and people often have to sit outside in a busy thoroughfare which can be freezing in the winter. The portions are relatively small and it's hardly a place where a family could sit and spend an hour relaxing if they're lucky enough to find a seat/table. But if that's your definition of a 'restaurant,' that's fine. And their burgers aren't £8 either.


----------



## editor (May 3, 2016)

8ball said:


> The ironing - it burns.
> 
> Still, encouraging to see you upping your game to the same low level of ad hominems.


It's clear you don't what the phrase means. Please argue the topic under discussion and keep your criticisms of my journalistic abilities to yourself please.


----------



## 8ball (May 3, 2016)

editor said:


> It's clear you don't what the phrase means. Please argue the topic under discussion and keep your criticisms of my journalistic abilities to yourself please.



Ok, I'll play nice, and try to be nice and clear, since perceptions of clarity seem a little variable these days.  And try to be a little less grumpy but it can be an uphill struggle...  And apologies about the journalism thing - no need to bring that sort of thing into it, but the soundbite, tossed out in its manner of quintessential "truthiness" led me in that direction.

I digress - the topic I was discussing was the risible idea that those not in grinding poverty are unable to have any real empathy for those who are.  It's a very common affectation of those who like to appear right-on but who like to play politics in service of their self-image.  Such people are also often reasonably comfortably off which completes the circle nicely.  I'm speaking very generally, of course, and I have no doubt that the most indignant posters on this thread are transmitting their messages via Morse code from their windblown cardboard box fashioned dwelling located on the hard shoulder of the M25.

How sad that left-wing thought is reduced to a therapeutic device only fit to salve the egos and consciences of those who should by rights be taking their place up against the wall...*

Uphill struggle, like I said.

On the more general subject, there seem to be two threads to the discussion here:

i) Charging quite a lot of money for burgers is bad.
ii) Setting up expensive burger places in areas where the rent is affordable is bad (because a lot of the people who live there will be unable to eat out at these places, at least casually).

The first one is typical Urban twaddle**, but the second one sounds kind of interesting.

I can't see anything aside from *MAHOOSIVE* political change having any effect on the latter point, seeing how things are in London (and some other UK cities).  I'm not sure whether people whining about it are just having a bit of a whinge about "the system", or whether there is some kind of idea brewing for a communist gourmet burger organization run from squats where the huddled masses could grab a nice burger.

They would no doubt be denounced as bearded pop-up hipster scum, addicting the down-at-heel to the evil products of animal suffering and deforestation with an eye toward hiking the prices massively and packaging further comestibles with Wonga loans, but it would be a fun sesame-seeded bunfight at least. 

* - I shouldn't have to point out that this is tongue-in-cheek but I think I might have to here

** - ... which has it's place...


----------



## Winot (May 3, 2016)

I don't see anything wrong with Jay Rayner spending £12 on a burger. After all, it's for his work.


----------



## 8ball (May 3, 2016)

Winot said:


> I don't see anything wrong with Jay Rayner spending £12 on a burger. After all, it's for his work.



Don't spread it around, but I think _his work pays for the burger_!!   

Then they go and burn tenners in front of homeless people.  Allegedly.


----------



## T & P (May 3, 2016)

editor said:


> Honest Burgers really isn't what I'd call a restaurant. There's no cutlery, no toilets, barely any tables and people often have to sit outside in a busy thoroughfare which can be freezing in the winter. The portions are relatively small and it's hardly a place where a family could sit and spend an hour relaxing if they're lucky enough to find a seat/table. But if that's your definition of a 'restaurant,' that's fine. And their burgers aren't £8 either.


Their burgers are extremely well received by most of their customers, who are clearly happy with the set-up. Perhaps you should allow regular customers of the place and indeed would-be customers to decide for themselves if the place offers good value for money.

But in any case, Honest Burgers is just one restaurant. Are you suggesting every other 'trendy' burger joint in Brixton that you object to has the same seating and cutlery arrangements?


----------



## 8ball (May 3, 2016)

8ball said:


> <big snip>



Let me be the first to say "tl;dr" and "ffs!".


----------



## uk benzo (May 3, 2016)

Fuck off all of you


----------



## 8115 (May 3, 2016)

There's a big difference between a ten pound burger and a ten pound (say) curry in terms of the demographic it's appealing to, frequency of visits they're aiming for, business model, length of stay in the restaurant they're aiming for, the value you get. Just saying, well they both cost the same is slightly missing the point.


----------



## 8ball (May 3, 2016)

8115 said:


> There's a big difference between a ten pound burger and a ten pound (say) curry in terms of the demographic it's appealing to, frequency of visits they're aiming for, business model, length of stay in the restaurant they're aiming for, the value you get. Just saying, well they both cost the same is slightly missing the point.



What is your perception in this sense?  That the curry is a 'big night out' and the burger isn't?  Or vice versa?

I think a big part of any difference (for the same price range) is the time of day the establishments tend to be open.  I've never been for a curry on a Friday lunchtime with workmates.  Though the idea is quite appealing tbf.


----------



## deadringer (May 3, 2016)

editor said:


> FYI: I can't afford to graze on burgers at £12 a pop, neither can I afford an evening knocking back £10 cocktails at the Shrub & Shutter. I doubt if most of the people on my estate can either.
> 
> I don't think people forfeit the right to make adverse comments about upmarket and unaffordable trendy burger joints opening up in deprived areas just because they're not struggling on a very low income themselves.




Apologies, my bad. I just assumed that the man who can swan around the South of England following his favourite football team, sometimes up to twice per week, who spends afternoons slurping expensive lattes and wolfing down cake, and can often be found propping up the bar at various watering holes may on occasion be able to stretch to a £12 burger from time to time.


----------



## 8ball (May 3, 2016)

deadringer said:


> Apologies, my bad. I just assumed that the man who can swan around the South of England following his favourite football team, sometimes up to twice per week, who spends afternoons slurping expensive lattes and wolfing down cake, and can often be found propping up the bar at various watering holes may on occasion be able to stretch to a £12 burger from time to time.



Are you tailing editor for MI6? 

And what's to say he isn't doing these things on the coin of a reputable publishing establishment.  Jay Rayner style.


----------



## editor (May 3, 2016)

deadringer said:


> Apologies, my bad. I just assumed that the man who can swan around the South of England following his favourite football team, sometimes up to twice per week, who spends afternoons slurping expensive lattes and wolfing down cake, and can often be found propping up the bar at various watering holes may on occasion be able to stretch to a £12 burger from time to time.


This, ladies and gentleman, is a textbook example of an ad hominem. The kind of thing that constantly destroys grown up debate here. So far I've had my journalistic abilities questioned, and now another poster has moved on to my personal life, posting up a rather bizarre collection of lies, none of which has any relevance to the actual discussion of the growing prevalence of upmarket burger bars in Brixton . 

It's quite shameful behaviour and speaks volumes of the integrity of the person doing the attacking. 

PS I never drink lattes and very rarely "wolf down" cake in cafes, not that any of this nonsense is remotely relevant to the discussion.


----------



## editor (May 3, 2016)

8ball said:


> And apologies about the journalism thing - no need to bring that sort of thing into it,..


You're absolutely free to disagree with my opinions but attacking what I do professionally to make some shitty point is beyond the pale. I posted up my thoughts about this kind of behaviour before. It's unnecessary and totally destructive to the forum and does you no credit. It's a cheap, nasty shot.


editor said:


> The arguments are always going to be asymmetrical because certain posters will always dig up details of my personal life to attack me while cowardly hiding behind their anonymous log ins.
> 
> If someone is going to criticise me because of things I do elsewhere, perhaps they should have the balls to post up similar details of their own lives. But that's not how cowards and bullies work.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (May 3, 2016)

I think it is a fair point that many 'poor' people just don't go to a resturaunt because of the expense.

Growing up I never did. We were a family of 8 (6 kids) and both my parents worked. We never ate out. Even on holiday a cafe was as close as we got to it. We never even went to wimpy or mcdonalds. We ate at home. That was it.

I developed a real sense of 'those places' not being for me and I don't think I really 'ate out' til I was 22 and met a middle class girl who got so frustrated at me that she basically said if I didn't go to a resturaunt she would dump me.

I was right fussy...the prices frightened me and I felt out of place.....and we were only in the stockpot in soho.

It's not just money that keeps 'the poor' away. It's a conditioning in society that says who can go and who can not.

Good for Jay Rayner that he was raised to go to places that some feel alienated to go.

Opening these businesses does impact on the locals who are less well off because it is just one more place they feel unable to go. This is more important than the cost of a fucking burger because this is about people feeling left out.

I'm sure someone will make a snide sarky comment now, but that's my side of things. The who can afford what bit is just a part of the issue, and burgers is really no part of the issue.


----------



## editor (May 3, 2016)

8115 said:


> There's a big difference between a ten pound burger and a ten pound (say) curry in terms of the demographic it's appealing to, frequency of visits they're aiming for, business model, length of stay in the restaurant they're aiming for, the value you get. Just saying, well they both cost the same is slightly missing the point.


Exactly. But this rather obvious fact has  been brought up before, and ignored.


----------



## Rushy (May 3, 2016)

8115 said:


> There's a big difference between a ten pound burger and a ten pound (say) curry.


But each is obscenely large and could feed a party of twenty hungry hipsters.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 3, 2016)

deadringer said:


> This is spot on. It's highly patronising when people who can afford to eat at these places are the ones denouncing them collectively too expensive for the poor, particularly when it's a business they don't particularly like.



"Collectively"?
I'm denouncing them, and I *can't* afford to use them, however much I might or might not wish to. It's nothing to do with whether I like the business or not, it's about affordability.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 3, 2016)

skyscraper101 said:


> I reckon the Speedy Noodle was just ahead of its time and in the future we'll see pop up dirty noodle joints replacing Foxtons in Brixton.



I'd prefer to see a public lavatory replace Foxtons.
Perhaps the estate agency could be multi-use, with members of the public pissing on the staff?


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 3, 2016)

T & P said:


> Most of these restaurants offer burgers (with chips) at around £8, but well done for ignoring that and picking the most expensive burger in their menus as a reference price.
> 
> And you are again making assumptions as to what constitutes unaffordable. The fact is every single bar, pub and restaurant, not just the businesses you don't like, are just as unaffordable to the poorest people in your estate, and elsewhere.



What's hilarious here is you grasping the argument in your final paragraph quite so hard. It's so obviously not an argument born of compassion, but born of "here, I reckon I've landed a punch!".


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 3, 2016)

8ball said:


> Ok, I'll play nice, and try to be nice and clear, since perceptions of clarity seem a little variable these days.  And try to be a little less grumpy but it can be an uphill struggle...  And apologies about the journalism thing - no need to bring that sort of thing into it, but the soundbite, tossed out in its manner of quintessential "truthiness" led me in that direction.
> 
> I digress - the topic I was discussing was the risible idea that those not in grinding poverty are unable to have any real empathy for those who are.  It's a very common affectation of those who like to appear right-on but who like to play politics in service of their self-image.  Such people are also often reasonably comfortably off which completes the circle nicely.  I'm speaking very generally, of course, and I have no doubt that the most indignant posters on this thread are transmitting their messages via Morse code from their windblown cardboard box fashioned dwelling located on the hard shoulder of the M25.



It's not an issue of empathy - putting yourself in someone's place is easy enough - it's about whether your empathy is informed with experience, or with imagination. I know plenty of people of my age who've never gone hungry - not even for a single meal-time, but very few of my class who *haven't* gone hungry. I'd contend that the latter are better-able to empathise than the former.  



> How sad that left-wing thought is reduced to a therapeutic device only fit to salve the egos and consciences of those who should by rights be taking their place up against the wall...*
> 
> Uphill struggle, like I said.
> 
> ...



You're not "bearded pop-up hipster scum". You're nowhere near interesting enough to be.


----------



## 8ball (May 3, 2016)

editor said:


> You're absolutely free to disagree with my opinions but attacking what I do professionally to make some shitty point is beyond the pale.



You're right.  It was meant to counter a point made in the style of throwaway media* , but it was clumsy not to consider that it could be taken to besmirch things you do off of this site, as well as being unwarranted and unpleasant when taken in the round.

I'm sincerely sorry about that - will try for better form in future.

* - I still maintain that conflating people who can afford to enjoy overelaborated street food with the upper-class emotionally-damaged sociopaths who are currently destroying fucking everything is silly and self-defeating - (but added as footnote so as not to detract from the main point, where I was totally in the wrong)


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 3, 2016)

deadringer said:


> Apologies, my bad. I just assumed that the man who can swan around the South of England following his favourite football team, sometimes up to twice per week, who spends afternoons slurping expensive lattes and wolfing down cake, and can often be found propping up the bar at various watering holes may on occasion be able to stretch to a £12 burger from time to time.



Pathetic.

Play the ball, not the man.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 3, 2016)

8ball said:


> Are you tailing editor for MI6?
> 
> And what's to say he isn't doing these things on the coin of a reputable publishing establishment.  Jay Rayner style.



A freelance journo can usually claim back for essentials.


----------



## T & P (May 3, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> What's hilarious here is you grasping the argument in your final paragraph quite so hard. It's so obviously not an argument born of compassion, but born of "here, I reckon I've landed a punch!".


Not at all. Editor very regularly mentions people in his estate during all debates concerning affordability of local businesses. There is nothing wrong, malicious or sinister in other people mentioning them as well when discussing those very issues, seeing as they are meant to be the very people affected by them.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 3, 2016)

8ball said:


> You're right.  It was meant to counter a point made in the style of throwaway media* , but it was clumsy not to consider that it could be taken to besmirch things you do off of this site, as well as being unwarranted and unpleasant when taken in the round.
> 
> I'm sincerely sorry about that - will try for better form in future.
> 
> * - I still maintain that conflating people who can afford to enjoy overelaborated street food with the upper-class emotionally-damaged sociopaths who are currently destroying fucking everything is silly and self-defeating - (but added as footnote so as not to detract from the main point, where I was totally in the wrong)



The problem is that there is a series of links between the former and the latter, which are about them being able to engage in forms of consumption not open to all, and to accrue social and cultural capital from doing so.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 3, 2016)

T & P said:


> Not at all. Editor very regularly mentions people in his estate during all debates concerning affordability of local businesses. There is nothing wrong, malicious or sinister in other people mentioning them as well when discussing those very issues, seeing as they are meant to be the very people affected by them.



He lives among them. He is "of" them. He has "licence" to speak of and for them.
Do you?


----------



## 8ball (May 3, 2016)

Well, that got pretty weird pretty quickly.


----------



## SpamMisery (May 3, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> He lives among them. He is "of" them. He has "licence" to speak of and for them.
> Do you?



Are you talking about Jesus or editor?


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 3, 2016)

8ball said:


> Well, that got pretty weird pretty quickly.



To what are you referring?


----------



## 8ball (May 3, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> To what are you referring?



Most of this page so far.  Except my apology to editor, which I meant.  Obv.  (Hopefully obv, anyway)


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 3, 2016)

SpamMisery said:


> Are you talking about Jesus or editor?



Who the fuck is Jesus?


----------



## Rushy (May 3, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> He lives among them. He is "of" them. He has "licence" to speak of and for them.


True Urban Gold.


----------



## 8ball (May 3, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> Who the fuck is Jesus?



Lives on editor's estate, I think.  Likes drumming but is considerate after 10pm.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 3, 2016)

Rushy said:


> True Urban Gold.



You appear to believe that you have licence to speak for property developers, going by your posts over the years.
How's that any different from editor speaking for the community he lives in, given that he does actually talk to people on his estate,and solicit their views?


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 3, 2016)

8ball said:


> Lives on editor's estate, I think.  Likes drumming but is considerate after 10pm.



No, that's Hay-Zeus. Different bloke.


----------



## 8ball (May 3, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> You appear to believe that you have licence to speak for property developers, going by your posts over the years.



First they came for the property developers.


----------



## Thimble Queen (May 3, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> He lives among them. He is "of" them. He has "licence" to speak of and for them.
> Do you?



Not sure if you are taking the piss or not.


----------



## 8ball (May 3, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> No, that's Hay-Zeus. Different bloke.



Well, he's been picking up Jesus's post, whoever he is.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 3, 2016)

poptyping said:


> Not sure if you are taking the piss or not.



No. I'm serious. If we don't have licence to speak for our communities,then we're reduced to the sort of post-modern individualism that's helped create the messes and pressures in those communities in the first place.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 3, 2016)

8ball said:


> First they came for the property developers.



They're low down on the list.


----------



## 8ball (May 3, 2016)

I'm getting really confused about who is and who isn't Jesus now.

I just hope it's not the property developers.


----------



## Thimble Queen (May 3, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> No. I'm serious. If we don't have licence to speak for our communities,then we're reduced to the sort of post-modern individualism that's helped create the messes and pressures in those communities in the first place.



Sure you have licence to speak for *your* communities. But that estate has a high proportion of BAME residents who may wish to speak for themselves. Rather than be spoken for and about by someone who likely has very different experiences day to day life.


----------



## editor (May 3, 2016)

poptyping said:


> Sure you have licence to speak for *your* communities. But that estate has a high proportion of BAME residents who may wish to speak for themselves. Rather than be spoken for and about by someone who likely has very different experiences day to day life.


I don't claim to speak for anyone/everyone on my estate. That would be a ridiculous claim to make.  I do however know quite a few people on my estate from _all_ backgrounds and listen to what they say and it's very often at complete odds with many of the comments expressed here. I think it's fair to discuss those views here.


----------



## editor (May 3, 2016)

8ball said:


> I'm getting really confused about who is and who isn't Jesus now.
> 
> I just hope it's not the property developers.


You seem determined to disrupt this debate. Why?


----------



## T & P (May 3, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> He lives among them. He is "of" them. He has "licence" to speak of and for them.
> Do you?



O RLY?

Has he spoken to all or most of them about the issue of burger restaurants in Brixton, and directly asked them if they find them affordable? Really?

Jesus wept, take a look at what you've written there...


----------



## Thimble Queen (May 3, 2016)

editor said:


> I don't claim to speak for anyone on my estate. That would be a ridiculous claim to make.  I do however know quite a few people on my estate from _all_ backgrounds and listen to what they say and it's very often at complete odds with many of the comments expressed here.



I was responding to VP's post, where he said you have license to speak for the people on your estate. Ya know the one you liked.

You haven't referenced that in your post above. So I've reproduced the exchange below just in case you or anyone else have missed the point and think I'm making a personal attack on you. 



ViolentPanda said:


> He lives among them. He is "of" them. He has "licence" to speak of and for them.
> Do you?





ViolentPanda said:


> No. I'm serious. If we don't have licence to speak for our communities,then we're reduced to the sort of post-modern individualism that's helped create the messes and pressures in those communities in the first place.





poptyping said:


> Sure you have licence to speak for *your* communities. But that estate has a high proportion of BAME residents who may wish to speak for themselves. Rather than be spoken for and about by someone who likely has very different experiences day to day life.


----------



## 8ball (May 3, 2016)

editor said:


> You seem determined to disrupt this debate. Why?



The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 3, 2016)

poptyping said:


> Sure you have licence to speak for *your* communities. But that estate has a high proportion of BAME residents who may wish to speak for themselves. Rather than be spoken for and about by someone who likely has very different experiences day to day life.



And?
Your post reads like editor's speaking would deny BAME residents the opportunity to do likewise. I'd contend that while there are issues regarding power relations, it's hard to deny anyone with access to ICT a voice.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 3, 2016)

T & P said:


> O RLY?
> 
> Has he spoken to all or most of them about the issue of burger restaurants in Brixton, and directly asked them if they find them affordable? Really?
> 
> Jesus wept, take a look at what you've written there...



So you've never ventured an opinion on behalf of your family, or your street, or your community, then, captain facepalm?


----------



## 8ball (May 3, 2016)

editor said:


> I don't claim to speak for anyone/everyone on my estate. That would be a ridiculous claim to make.  I do however know quite a few people on my estate from _all_ backgrounds and listen to what they say and it's very often at complete odds with many of the comments expressed here. I think it's fair to discuss those views here.



Well, it would be a pretty weird old do if the views of normal people bore any relation to what you'll find on these boards.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 3, 2016)

8ball said:


> Well, it would be a pretty weird old do if the views of normal people bore any relation to what you'll find on these boards.



Why? Because you have your own preconceptions about how well views on this board reflect views out in "the real world"?


----------



## editor (May 3, 2016)

T & P said:


> Has he spoken to all or most of them about the issue of burger restaurants in Brixton, and directly asked them if they find them affordable? Really?


Actually, the subject of the changes in Brixton comes up quite often in chats with my neighbours and they rarely share your enthusiasm.


----------



## Treacle Toes (May 3, 2016)

There is a difference between talking about and talking for... The idea of a 'community spokesperson' is dodgey if the community haven't elected them as such. I think this to and fro has come from the use of the idea of having  'licence to speak for' other people. Of course Editor can share his experiences and talk about what he discusses with his neighbours we all can...that's not having licence to speak for them though.


----------



## 8ball (May 3, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> Why? Because you have your own preconceptions about how well views on this board reflect views out in "the real world"?



Amen.


----------



## Rushy (May 3, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> You appear to believe that you have licence to speak for property developers, going by your posts over the years.


What a curious statement! I shan't trouble you by asking for any examples from over the years of my claiming or implying licence to speak on behalf anyone but myself.


----------



## Thimble Queen (May 3, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> And?
> Your post reads like editor's speaking would deny BAME residents the opportunity to do likewise. I'd contend that while there are issues regarding power relations, it's hard to deny anyone with access to ICT a voice.



I was in the middle of replying when Rutita1 posted this. And I couldn't have put it better.



Rutita1 said:


> There is a difference between talking about and talking for... The idea of a 'community spokesperson' is dodgey if the community haven't elected them as such. I think this to and fro has come from the use of the idea of having  'licence to speak for' other people.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 3, 2016)

editor said:


> Actually, the subject of the changes in Brixton comes up quite often in chats with my neighbours and they rarely share your enthusiasm.



Same here. What mostly comes through isn't enthusiasm, but resignation and anger about being edged out. I know this because I too chat with my neighbours etc, and am involved in several different grassroots community efforts to make sense of the change and make as sure as possible we can't be "socially cleansed".


----------



## editor (May 3, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> There is a difference between talking about and talking for... The idea of a 'community spokesperson' is dodgey if the community haven't elected them as such. I think this to and fro has come from the use of the idea of having  'licence to speak for' other people.


I think it's totally acceptable for people to post up dissenting opinions from their friends/neighbourhood/community that aren't being represented here, especially given how some of the voices on this forum have lurched it so depressingly towards the well-off, nu-Brixton set.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 3, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> There is a difference between talking about and talking for... The idea of a 'community spokesperson' is dodgey if the community haven't elected them as such. I think this to and fro has come from the use of the idea of having  'licence to speak for' other people. Of course Editor can share his experiences and talk about what he discusses with his neighbours we all can...that's not having licence to speak for them though.



I'm not on about the type of "community spokesperson" we're both all too aware of - people usually representing their own interests - but about people who become spokespersons through being questioned on particular issues. "Licence" was the wrong word for me to use though, as it implies formal designation as a spokesperson.


----------



## Treacle Toes (May 3, 2016)

editor said:


> I think it's totally acceptable for people to post up dissenting opinions from their friends/neighbourhood/community that aren't being represented here, especially given how some of the voices on this forum have lurched it so depressingly towards the well-off, nu-Brixton set.



Which is pretty much what I have written.



> Of course Editor can share his experiences and talk about what he discusses with his neighbours we all can...that's not having licence to speak for them though.



That is not having licence to speak for people though.


----------



## Treacle Toes (May 3, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> Licence" was the wrong word for me to use though, as it implies formal designation as a spokesperson.



Fair enough.


----------



## editor (May 3, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> That is not having licence to speak for people though.


That's what Brixton Green like to do.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 3, 2016)

editor said:


> That's what Brixton Green like to do.



Especially their spokesperson, Brad Carroll.


----------



## T & P (May 3, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> So you've never ventured an opinion on behalf of your family, or your street, or your community, then, captain facepalm?


Not when it is such as broad assumption as to suggest that many, most or an otherwise significant number of people from an area or block cannot afford a meal out where the main dish costs £8, or that they find a type of restaurant unaffordable.

Some of them might. Many others just as likely, will not.

This all seems to boil down to making assumptions on behalf of entire segments of the population to simply further one's argument. It is worse still that it is IMO a deeply flawed argument, seeing that it conveniently refuses to acknowledge that other restaurants with similar and often _higher_ prices (but crucially, restaurants that are seen in a far more favourable light and not run or frequently by the wrong sort of people) will undoubtedly also be completely out of reach for all those people.

I couldn't care less if anyone doesn't any of these burger restaurants or personally thinks they offer poor value for money. But painting them as unaffordable for large segments of the local population while ignoring other businesses with similar prices seems to me nothing more than a ploy to simply attack a business one doesn't like from every possible angle, even when the angle in question is a pretty flawed one.


----------



## editor (May 3, 2016)

T & P said:


> Not when it is such as broad assumption as to suggest that many, most or an otherwise significant number of people from an area or block cannot afford a meal out where the main dish costs £8, or that they find a type of restaurant unaffordable.


If you want a flawed argument, your continual comparison between an actual restaurant and a small unit aimed at a specific, generally well-to-do demographic handing you a burger without even any cutlery (or quite possibly a table/seat) is it.


----------



## 8ball (May 3, 2016)

This is reminiscent of the McDonald's arguments of the 1980's.

Except we're not conducting it via punchcards, obviously.


----------



## Mr Retro (May 3, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> He lives among them. He is "of" them. He has "licence" to speak of and for them.


----------



## BigMoaner (May 3, 2016)

8ball said:


> I'm getting really confused about who is and who isn't Jesus now.
> 
> I just hope it's not the property developers.


I knew Jesus when he was a safe cracker out of Deptford.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 3, 2016)

T & P said:


> Not when it is such as broad assumption as to suggest that many, most or an otherwise significant number of people from an area or block cannot afford a meal out where the main dish costs £8, or that they find a type of restaurant unaffordable.



Of course you haven't. 



> Some of them might. Many others just as likely, will not.
> 
> This all seems to boil down to making assumptions on behalf of entire segments of the population to simply further one's argument. It is worse still that it is IMO a deeply flawed argument, seeing that it conveniently refuses to acknowledge that other restaurants with similar and often _higher_ prices (but crucially, restaurants that are seen in a far more favourable light and not run or frequently by the wrong sort of people) will undoubtedly also be completely out of reach for all those people.



"Entire segments of the population",eh?
Odd.
I thought we were talking about poor people on estates in a particular bit of a particular borough, rather than an "entire segment" of a population.

As for refusal of acknowledgement, it doesn't exist.What fails to exist is the simplistic binary you're trying to establish. 



> I couldn't care less if anyone doesn't any of these burger restaurants or personally thinks they offer poor value for money. But painting them as unaffordable for large segments of the local population while ignoring other businesses with similar prices seems to me nothing more than a ploy to simply attack a business one doesn't like from every possible angle, even when the angle in question is a pretty flawed one.



Fatuous. The argument was originally about a business or businesses of a certain type, not about "other restaurants with similar prices" - an argument you only wanted to introduce because you couldn't land a punch without introducing fatuity.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 3, 2016)

Mr Retro said:


>



Johnny-come-lately, copying the big boys.


----------



## Mr Retro (May 3, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> Johnny-come-lately, copying the big boys.



That's me all right. But seriously:



ViolentPanda said:


> He lives among them. He is "of" them. He has "licence" to speak of and for them.
> Do you?


----------



## Ms T (May 3, 2016)

So far, Brixton has kept most of its cheap cafes and restaurants (McDonalds, KFC, the Phoenix, Cafe Max etc) whilst adding a lot more options at all price ranges, so I can't get too exercised about burger proliferation.  However, that might soon change, once Network Rail get their way and cleanse the arches.


----------



## editor (May 3, 2016)

Ms T said:


> So far, Brixton has kept most of its cheap cafes and restaurants (McDonalds, KFC, the Phoenix, Cafe Max etc)...


The Phoenix hasn't been open for a long time now, Kaff has gone and, even closer to home for me, both the cafes that used to be opposite have gone for good.  And as you note, Cafe Max is likely to go soon, as are several other of those smaller cafes. I fear that if Boom Burger finally opens up in Station Road, it'll have a negative knock on impact on rents for small independents too.


----------



## T & P (May 3, 2016)

editor said:


> If you want a flawed argument, your continual comparison between an actual restaurant and a small unit aimed at a specific, generally well-to-do demographic handing you a burger without even any cutlery (or quite possibly a table/seat) is it.


How many of these burger places fit that description? All? A few? Or perhaps just Honest Burgers (and then only partially)?


----------



## teuchter (May 3, 2016)

Let's not fall into the trap of thinking that doing Jesus' work, and serving burgers need be mutually exclusive.


----------



## editor (May 3, 2016)

T & P said:


> How many of these burger places fit that description? All? A few? Or perhaps just Honest Burgers (and then only partially)?


I've been too busy publicising and supporting Rachel Heywood's stand against Lambeth's estate regeneration/Brixton Arches evictions/library closures to fuck about with this petty request, which you're only going to try and twist into an even more pointless argument.

If you're that fascinated, why not compile this list yourself, and while you're doing that perhaps ponder why you - and the other sneering faces here - never seem to do bother turning up for such important community support actions.

Enjoy your burgers and 'winning' online.


----------



## happyshopper (May 3, 2016)

editor said:


> ... if Boom Burger finally opens up in Station Road, ...



Boom Burger is actually a poor example as it has obviously failed to open, despite a lot of hype.


----------



## editor (May 3, 2016)

happyshopper said:


> Boom Burger is actually a poor example as it has obviously failed to open, despite a lot of hype.


They're still advertising themselves as (sigh) "soon come" in Brixton.


----------



## Ms T (May 3, 2016)

editor said:


> The Phoenix hasn't been open for a long time now, Kaff has gone and, even closer to home for me, both the cafes that used to be opposite have gone for good.  And as you note, Cafe Max is likely to go soon, as are several other of those smaller cafes. I fear that if Boom Burger finally opens up in Station Road, it'll have a negative knock on impact on rents for small independents too.


The Phoenix has simply moved to a new location, no?  You just don't really like it in its new incarnation.  I would not put Kaff in the same bracket as the other places I mention as it was primarily a bar.


----------



## organicpanda (May 3, 2016)

Ms T said:


> The Phoenix has simply moved to a new location, no?  You just don't really like it in its new incarnation.  I would not put Kaff in the same bracket as the other places I mention as it was primarily a bar.


the new location has now gone to Soho House's 'Dirty Burger' chain and they are going to rent out the old place when they've finished the building work


----------



## 8ball (May 3, 2016)

teuchter said:


> Let's not fall into the trap of thinking that doing Jesus' work, and serving burgers need be mutually exclusive.




While this is an admirable example of burgers linked to a  kind of preaching that isn't disingenuous and entirely self-serving in the worst individualistic sense, I am saddened that there are no lingering pictures of the burgers.


----------



## T & P (May 3, 2016)

editor said:


> I've been too busy publicising and supporting Rachel Heywood's stand against Lambeth's estate regeneration/Brixton Arches evictions/library closures to fuck about with this petty request, which you're only going to try and twist into an even more pointless argument.


If you make a statement suggesting all these burger restaurants are bad value for money because they operate from small units and don't even give you cutlery, and this claim is in fact based on the set-up of just one restaurant, then it is certainly not up to me to prove otherwise, because the claim itself seems very unlikely.

So it seems pretty unfair to paint a whole bunch of different venues as having uncomfortable set-up or suggest they might not even give you cutlery or plates with your meal unless you actually know that is the case. I am sure you would not appreciate it if you ran an eatery of a particular kind in Brixton and someone said it was cramped or uncomfortable based on what they saw at a different eatery altogether that just happened to serve the same food.

Whatever you might think, I'm not trying to score points or win internet battles. There are many opinions I might not agree with and choose not to question. But this is a message board that is meant to be for debate and discussion, and I don't think it's wrong to discuss opinions with other posters and reply to their counterpoints, even if it drags for longer than it should. At the end of the day it takes two to tango and I could as easily suggest you were the one trying to win an internet battle. Anyway, you can have the last word if you want, as I'm a bit tired of this too.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 3, 2016)

8ball said:


> While this is an admirable example of burgers linked to a  kind of preaching that isn't disingenuous and entirely self-serving in the worst individualistic sense, I am saddened that there are no lingering pictures of the burgers.



Could have been worse. There could have been lingering shots of the dead Christ hanging on his cross.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 3, 2016)

T & P said:


> At the end of the day it takes two to tango...


Going for the double cliché bonus?


----------



## 8ball (May 3, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> Could have been worse. There could have been lingering shots of the dead Christ hanging on his cross.



Interlaced with lingering shots of those juicy, juicy burgers.  Creating subliminal associations.  A perfect fusion of neural marketing and evangelism.


----------



## editor (May 4, 2016)

Ms T said:


> I would not put Kaff in the same bracket as the other places I mention as it was primarily a bar.


It really wasn't, you know. It opened at 8am and was primarily a cafe and eatery until early evening.


----------



## deadringer (May 4, 2016)

editor said:


> This, ladies and gentleman, is a textbook example of an ad hominem. The kind of thing that constantly destroys grown up debate here. So far I've had my journalistic abilities questioned, and now another poster has moved on to my personal life, posting up a rather bizarre collection of lies, none of which has any relevance to the actual discussion of the growing prevalence of upmarket burger bars in Brixton .
> 
> It's quite shameful behaviour and speaks volumes of the integrity of the person doing the attacking.
> 
> PS I never drink lattes and very rarely "wolf down" cake in cafes, not that any of this nonsense is remotely relevant to the discussion.




Wriggle wriggle wriggle! How can it not be an ad hominem when your stated claim is that you can't afford a £12 burger meal, when details of your various carousing around town, none of which come particularly cheap, are posted up by yourself repeatedly! If you don't want your personal life brought up to disprove your arguments it may be an idea not to post up your leisure activities on a public Internet forum for the world to see!


----------



## killer b (May 4, 2016)

Christ. You know how much a prick that makes you look don't you?


----------



## SpamMisery (May 4, 2016)

Strictly speaking accusing someone of an ad hominem and calling it "not grown up", "shameful" and "lies" whilst questioning their integrity is also an ad hominem


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 4, 2016)

SpamMisery said:


> Strictly speaking accusing someone of an ad hominem and calling it "not grown up", "shameful" and "lies" whilst questioning their integrity is also an ad hominem



"Strictly speaking", that would depend entirely on whether accusations of someone being "not grown up", "shameful" or telling "lies" was accurate or not, wouldn't it?


----------



## Nanker Phelge (May 4, 2016)

Will nobody think of the cows


----------



## Lucy Fur (May 4, 2016)




----------



## teuchter (May 4, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> "Strictly speaking", that would depend entirely on whether accusations of someone being "not grown up", "shameful" or telling "lies" was accurate or not, wouldn't it?


No.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 4, 2016)

teuchter said:


> No.



I'm loath to reply, in case you start a thread in the feedback forum.


----------



## Ol Nick (May 4, 2016)

I *like* burgers, but I *love* sausages. Why is it all about burgers?


----------



## Saul Goodman (May 4, 2016)

Ol Nick said:


> I *like* burgers, but I *love* sausages. Why is it all about burgers?


The clue is in the thread title.


----------



## editor (May 4, 2016)

Ol Nick said:


> I *like* burgers, but I *love* sausages. Why is it all about burgers?


Probably something to do with the fact that so many people are more than willing to hand over comparatively large sums of money for comparatively small amounts of food because the food is on-trend right now. Besides we had the Hot Dog/Dawg thing a while ago and that was equally daft and over priced.


----------



## 8ball (May 4, 2016)

Ol Nick said:


> I *like* burgers, but I *love* sausages. Why is it all about burgers?



Sausage is probably next year's thing.

Look up Sausagefest 2017.  It's being hosted by that twat from Blur.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (May 4, 2016)

Cut down on your pork life, mate...


----------



## alfajobrob (May 5, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> I'm loath to reply, in case you start a thread in the feedback forum.



He lives among them. He is "of" them. He has "licence" to speak of and for them.
Do you?

Jesus, Mo - that's fucked up....who is "them"?


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 5, 2016)

alfajobrob said:


> He lives among them. He is "of" them. He has "licence" to speak of and for them.
> Do you?
> 
> Jesus, Mo - that's fucked up....who is "them"?



Read the thread. It should be apparent, even to you.


----------



## alfajobrob (May 6, 2016)

Burgers have been peak for a few years now anyway - the one in peckham car park going uptown etc.

Jeez.


----------



## alfajobrob (May 6, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> Read the thread. It should be apparent, even to you.



"He lives among them. He is "of" them. He has "licence" to speak of and for them."

Cool.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 6, 2016)

alfajobrob said:


> "He lives among them. He is "of" them. He has "licence" to speak of and for them."
> 
> Cool.



Wow, you can quote posts *and* make single-word comments! Good for you!


----------



## alfajobrob (May 6, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> Wow, you can quote posts *and* make single-word comments! Good for you!



C'mon give me another quote


----------



## alfajobrob (May 6, 2016)

Sycophant - that is another single word comment.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 6, 2016)

alfajobrob said:


> Sycophant - that is another single word comment.



Thanks for the laugh!


----------



## alfajobrob (May 6, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> Thanks for the laugh!



Well at least you can laugh at yourself


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 6, 2016)

alfajobrob said:


> Well at least you can laugh at yourself



And at you, dear boy. And at you.


----------



## pogofish (May 6, 2016)

Brixton won't reach peak-burger till it gets a Boozy Cow - and I'm reliably informed they have been looking!






















Its the Brainchild of one Garreth Wood  - Aberdeen's principal rich-kid of the 80s/90s and the business model is pretty-much Brewdog for burgers but without Brewdog's redeeming qualities.






Enjoy!


----------



## alfajobrob (May 6, 2016)

That's taking the piss - scotch twat with dodgy hair!


----------



## pogofish (May 6, 2016)

alfajobrob said:


> That's taking the piss - scotch twat with dodgy hair!



I'm afraid not - He's 100% genuine!


----------



## alfajobrob (May 6, 2016)

pogofish said:


> I'm afraid not - He's 100% genuine!



I thought Scotland was better than that


----------



## alfajobrob (May 6, 2016)




----------



## teuchter (May 6, 2016)

alfajobrob said:


> I thought Scotland was better than that


Mostly we try and pretend Aberdeen isn't really part of Scotland.


----------



## pogofish (May 6, 2016)

alfajobrob said:


> I thought Scotland was better than that



He does a good job of pretending not to be Scottish when it suits him:








teuchter said:


> Mostly we try and pretend Aberdeen isn't really part of Scotland.



He's based near Edinburgh now - although he seems to manage being up-here all the fucking time.  I did a bit of trespassing on his estate a few years ago, before he bought it - A very interesting old place!

His company has been doing a lot of consulting (of the really beardy/hipster variety) recently - If what I've been hearing is remotely true, he has very big plans indeed!


----------



## alfajobrob (May 6, 2016)

Dem shorts 

PROPER LIGHTWEIGHT CHAMP.

Duran said NO after.


----------



## alex_ (May 6, 2016)

pogofish said:


> Brixton won't reach peak-burger till it gets a Boozy Cow - and I'm reliably informed they have been looking!
> 
> Its the Brainchild of one Garreth Wood  - Aberdeen's principal rich-kid of the 80s/90s and the business model is pretty-much Brewdog for burgers but without Brewdog's redeeming qualities.
> 
> Enjoy!



This looks like a straight copy of Meatliquor, only about 5 years late.

Alex


----------



## pogofish (May 6, 2016)

It most certainly does - thanks!


----------



## organicpanda (May 6, 2016)

pogofish said:


> Brixton won't reach peak-burger till it gets a Boozy Cow - and I'm reliably informed they have been looking!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


buns bought from Tesco's at the end of the day? they look piss poor quality, the tomato has bruising and either he has huge hands or they are small, don't know how much they cost but........


----------



## pogofish (May 6, 2016)

organicpanda said:


> buns bought from Tesco's at the end of the day? they look piss poor quality, the tomato has bruising and either he has huge hands or they are small, don't know how much they cost but........



Seven quid for the basic burger.


----------



## organicpanda (May 6, 2016)

pogofish said:


> Seven quid for the basic burger.


nice profit margin (the rip-off twat)


----------



## editor (May 6, 2016)

organicpanda said:


> buns bought from Tesco's at the end of the day? they look piss poor quality, the tomato has bruising and either he has huge hands or they are small, don't know how much they cost but........


You can get 4 brioche buns from Iceland for a £1 and they taste pretty much identical to the 'artisan' stuff I've tried at trendy burger joints.


----------



## BigMoaner (May 6, 2016)

pogofish said:


> Brixton won't reach peak-burger till it gets a Boozy Cow - and I'm reliably informed they have been looking!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


that decor is very interesting, isn't it. You do get places that are all shabby like that, brick work showing, tatty furniture etc, mainly because through no choice, i.e. with no significant capital, the establisment, cafe, bar, gallary, or what ever it is, starts from having little, thus the "decour" is run down, rough, but often that is what gives it its character. reminds me of that little coffee shop that used to be on CHL, the one with the books in, circa early 00s. It's shabby decour was probably all that funds could invest, but everyone i know loved the place and me and sober mates used to meet there a lot. But this sort of place, with huge capital behind it, wants to create that affect. It could even be they rent nice clean ready to go units, and some beard says "knock that plaster out to show the bricks", "lets rip up this sofa a bit and put fag holes in it", "lets get a graffitti artist in to scrawl ghetto shit all over teh wall". it's a bizarre modern thing, isn't it? Was that sort of hip edgy establisment popular in say the fifties? It's just the most inauthentic thing, isn't it?


----------



## BigMoaner (May 6, 2016)

they probably make it "just so" edgy, in case all the local crack dealers swing on mass for a cocktail, inticed by the edginess. snivelling to the local coppers "we wanted it edgy, but not THAT edgy".


----------



## BigMoaner (May 6, 2016)

i guess fabric, which i used to enjoy as a yoot, was the same - pipe work showing everywhere "industrial, man".


----------



## organicpanda (May 6, 2016)

BigMoaner said:


> that decor is very interesting, isn't it. You do get places that are all shabby like that, brick work showing, tatty furniture etc, mainly because through no choice, i.e. with no significant capital, the establisment, cafe, bar, gallary, or what ever it is, starts from having little, thus the "decour" is run down, rough, but often that is what gives it its character. reminds me of that little coffee shop that used to be on CHL, the one with the books in, circa early 00s. It's shabby decour was probably all that funds could invest, but everyone i know loved the place and me and sober mates used to meet there a lot. But this sort of place, with huge capital behind it, wants to create that affect. It could even be they rent nice clean ready to go units, and some beard says "knock that plaster out to show the bricks", "lets rip up this sofa a bit and put fag holes in it", "lets get a graffitti artist in to scrawl ghetto shit all over teh wall". it's a bizarre modern thing, isn't it? Was that sort of hip edgy establisment popular in say the fifties? It's just the most inauthentic thing, isn't it?


Robert who used to own it started it in 1995 he was also a part time antique dealer who went to Germany to by tat and sell it over here at vastly inflated prices. He also set up a jazz bar in Dalston on a similar principal (no idea if it's still going).


----------



## aussw9 (May 6, 2016)

alex_ said:


> This looks like a straight copy of Meatliquor, only about 5 years late.
> 
> Alex



Its a carbon copy of meat liquor... shameless


----------



## pogofish (May 6, 2016)

BigMoaner said:


> that decor is very interesting, isn't it. You do get places that are all shabby like that, brick work showing, tatty furniture etc, mainly because through no choice, i.e. with no significant capital, the establisment, cafe, bar, gallary, or what ever it is, starts from having little, thus the "decour" is run down, rough, but often that is what gives it its character. reminds me of that little coffee shop that used to be on CHL, the one with the books in, circa early 00s. It's shabby decour was probably all that funds could invest, but everyone i know loved the place and me and sober mates used to meet there a lot. But this sort of place, with huge capital behind it, wants to create that affect. It could even be they rent nice clean ready to go units, and some beard says "knock that plaster out to show the bricks", "lets rip up this sofa a bit and put fag holes in it", "lets get a graffitti artist in to scrawl ghetto shit all over teh wall". it's a bizarre modern thing, isn't it? Was that sort of hip edgy establisment popular in say the fifties? It's just the most inauthentic thing, isn't it?




Until just a few weeks ago it looked like this:
















The place in the last two photos anyway - Sited in an elegant, 19th century classical, end-terrace pavilion on a fine terrace/street more notable for housing some of the city's most prominent worthies and lawyers/financiers etc.

The one in the first two was made-over last year sometime but it was also a similarly slick and soulless style/cocktail bar in an upmarket location- The previous stock-in-trade of Garreth's enterprise.

He's put the rest of his current places up for sale to concentrate on his planned legion of Cows- apart from the hotel/inn his dad bought him and the slightly grotty basement/student pub he took over as a going concern and kept much as it was - although its upstairs (street frontage) function room was made into the first Cow.


----------



## editor (May 6, 2016)

aussw9 said:


> Its a carbon copy of meat liquor... shameless


All of this faux nu-edgy food stuff seems derived from what I saw in Brooklyn ten years ago. It's all so predictable now.


----------



## pogofish (May 6, 2016)

aussw9 said:


> Its a carbon copy of meat liquor... shameless



Can someone please encourage them to sue him?


----------



## twistedAM (May 6, 2016)

BigMoaner said:


> i guess fabric, which i used to enjoy as a yoot, was the same - pipe work showing everywhere "industrial, man".



They ripped that idea from the Hacienda.


----------



## alex_ (May 6, 2016)

pogofish said:


> Can someone please encourage them to sue him?



They'd be pretty silly to do that, they'd provide him with a huge amount of free PR and proving a trademark on a look is probably pretty expensive. Judging by the number of places selling posh burgers these days, how would spending hundreds of thousands of pounds defending your look ( which as editor points out they probably borrowed from the us )  be of benefit to their business.

Alex


----------



## Winot (May 6, 2016)

alex_ said:


> They'd be pretty silly to do that, they'd provide him with a huge amount of free PR and proving a trademark on a look is probably pretty expensive. Judging by the number of places selling posh burgers these days, how would spending hundreds of thousands of pounds defending your look ( which as editor points out they probably borrowed from the us )  be of benefit to their business.
> 
> Alex



"Look and feel" trade mark cases are pretty impossible to win.


----------



## pogofish (May 6, 2016)

alex_ said:


> They'd be pretty silly to do that, they'd provide him with a huge amount of free PR and proving a trademark on a look is probably pretty expensive. Judging by the number of places selling posh burgers these days, how would spending hundreds of thousands of pounds defending your look ( which as editor points out they probably borrowed from the us )  be of benefit to their business.
> 
> Alex



Shame - because he's being treated like the very fount of catering creativity up here just now. Which may be in part due to his family connections. They have never been short of fawning toadies.


----------



## alex_ (May 6, 2016)

pogofish said:


> Shame - because he's being treated like the very fount of catering creativity up here just now. Which may be in part due to his family connections. They have never been short of fawning toadies.



Presumably he's banging on about shaking up the uk fast food scene, in a way which is totally different too and in no way derivative of the 15 posh burger places in brixton which proceeded the opening of his establishment ?

Alex


----------



## 8ball (May 6, 2016)

organicpanda said:


> buns bought from Tesco's at the end of the day? they look piss poor quality, the tomato has bruising and either he has huge hands or they are small, don't know how much they cost but........



Exactly what I thought - if they were more than £4 a pop I'd be a bit embarassed holdong one up like that in a promo shot.


----------



## 8ball (May 6, 2016)

editor said:


> All of this faux nu-edgy food stuff seems derived from what I saw in Brooklyn ten years ago. It's all so predictable now.



Don't you mean nu faux-edgy?


----------



## editor (May 6, 2016)

8ball said:


> Don't you mean nu faux-edgy?


Any combination does the job.


----------



## pogofish (May 6, 2016)

alex_ said:


> Presumably he's banging on about shaking up the uk fast food scene, in a way which is totally different too and in no way derivative of the 15 posh burger places in brixton which proceeded the opening of his establishment ?
> 
> Alex



Nope - His ambitions are bigger - All the hip places in Britain - soon.  Then Europe and soon after *THE WORLD!*  He's nothing if not ambitious and has set a very steep expansion curve for the chain - into triple figures of outlets over a very short timescale.

He has a team of masonically-named consultants churning-out plans for new outlets on a constant/industrial basis just now.


----------



## 8ball (May 7, 2016)

editor said:


> Any combination does the job.



They mean different things, though. 

Nu faux-edgy = that twat with the failburger
Faux nu-edgy = David Guetta fan with fake tattoos
Nu-faux edgy = robbing a bookmaker with an imitation firearm bought that morning

This is too important to be slap-dash about!


----------



## 8ball (May 7, 2016)

pogofish said:


> ...his ambitions are bigger - All the hip places in Britain - soon.  Then Europe and soon after *THE WORLD!*  He's nothing if not ambitious and has set a very steep expansion curve for the chain - into triple figures of outlets over a very short timescale.



I'm sensing a "ground-level crowdfunding opportunity"...


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## pogofish (May 7, 2016)

8ball said:


> I'm sensing a "ground-level crowdfunding opportunity"...



I don't think this guy needs to consider crowdfunding or "community" really.


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## Winot (May 7, 2016)

Back to the burgers. Had one last night at Effra Social. £10.50 including pretty good chips. Unfortunately the burger was rubbish - worst I've had for a while. Over-cooked, boring garnishes, stale bun. Must try harder.


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## Nanker Phelge (May 7, 2016)

I still can't get my head around burger and chips for over a tenner....

Remember this beauty that Hungry Horse used to sell for 8.99 with chips; The Donut Burger.....2000 calories of pure heart attack right there!!


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## discobastard (May 7, 2016)

organicpanda said:


> nice profit margin (the rip-off twat)


For balance, it's probably worth mentioning that Boozy Cow is planning to hand all of their profits to charity. 

News + Events / The Speratus Group

What do we think of that?

Garreth Wood’s latest venture aims to pour up to £1million into charitable causes by 2018

Garreth Wood is today announcing that his latest venture, a string of burger bars called The Boozy Cow, will commit all of its profits to local charities.

The Scottish philanthropist and entrepreneur, who owns Speratus Group, has recently opened a Boozy Cow in Edinburgh after the success of the first one in Aberdeen. Garreth is looking at opening another three units in either Dundee, Perth, St. Andrews, Glasgow or Inverness by the end of 2017, creating 150 new jobs in Scotland.

His Group is confident that, when fully operational, the combined donations to charity on an annual basis will be more than £1million.

The first beneficiaries from the profits of the Boozy Cows in Aberdeen and Edinburgh will be CHAS (Children’s Hospice Association Scotland) in Edinburgh, the ARCHIE Foundation which provides extra facilities to sick children and their families in Highlands and Islands, Grampian and the Northern Isles and Tayside, VSA - Aberdeen’s major social care charity and the STV Children’s Appeal.

Garreth said: "At Speratus we are always coming up with new ideas for dynamic and different venues. Boozy Cow is a fresh twist on the typical burger joint with a focus on great quality burgers, craft beers and exciting cocktails in an edgy and urban environment. Both units are going really well with great reviews."

Speratus is Latin for 'hope' and Garreth explained that his Group has a real social conscience. He said: "If through business, we can go some way to tackle social problems, improve communities, people’s life chances or their environment then it has all been worth it. Initially Boozy Cow was just another addition to the Group but we came up with the idea of channelling all our extensive charitable work through the one brand."

"It’s true to say my accountant had a problem with the concept of every single penny of profit going to charity but, for me, this is not about a commercial enterprise. It’s about using my experience in running successful hospitality businesses to create a chain of burger bars which will serve the communities in which they operate".

“I am incredibly fortunate to be able to pursue philanthropic ventures and have already built up profitable businesses under Speratus Group. This allows me to do something exceptional with the Boozy Cow concept.”

There are several successful organisations who donate a share of their profits to charitable causes but Garreth believes Boozy Cow is unique in that it will give away all its profits.

“We will produce audited accounts every year to show the profit and will select different charities in each location to be supported every year,” explained Garreth.

Supporter of the STV Children’s Appeal Sir Tom Hunter, said: "Boozy Cow for me is the precise definition of a social business - drive maximum commercial benefit from a business that makes money then reinvest that profit for the common good. Garreth is redefining how we think about business and its overwhelming ability to do good whilst making money; hopefully many more will follow their lead."

Maria McGill, chief executive at CHAS, added: “We are excited to be chosen as one of the Boozy Cow’s first beneficiary charities and to be associated with a venture that has charity at its heart. Thanks to the generosity of Garreth and the Speratus Group, we are able to continue to care for families around Scotland who face the devastation that their child will die young and to support them when they need it most, both during the child’s life and after. “We wish the Boozy Cow every success and I’m sure it will become a firm favourite with the Scottish public – indeed I know everyone at CHAS is looking forward to sampling the burgers!”

David Cunningham, Chief Executive of The ARCHIE Foundation, was delighted at the offer of this substantial support for the charity’s ‘High 10’ for ARCHIE 10th anniversary appeal for Royal Aberdeen Children’s Hospital, “We are in the middle of one of our most exciting projects in Aberdeen since the original appeal when the hospital was built. The medical care for children in the North East is superb, but hospital can still be an intimidating place for babies and young people, so we are transforming that experience for everyone. These additional funds from the Speratus Group will help us to make a massive difference and we are extremely grateful to Garreth Wood and his team for caring so much about our children and making some of these changes possible”

Dr.Kenneth Simpson, Chief Executive of VSA, the North East of Scotland's leading Social Care Charity added, "We are absolutely thrilled by this tremendous financial commitment from Garreth Wood. VSA cares for the most vulnerable people in our community and it is only with such donations and support that we can achieve our aims. Garreth has been a long time supporter of VSA, not only in financial terms, but as a hands on visitor to many of our projects. We wish the Boozy Cow Chain every possible success"

Launched in 2009, Speratus Group is fast becoming a leading independent operators of bars and restaurants. Forward-thinking and innovative, the group aims to create differentiated units based on quality food and drink served to the highest standards. The eight venues across Scotland, which include the Boozy Cows, are Amicus Apple, Illicit Still, Paramount Bar and Nox nightclub in Aberdeen and 99 Hanover Street and The Golf Tavern in Edinburgh. The Group currently employs over 300 people with a turnover of £11million.

In recent years, Speratus Group, has awarded up to £250,000 annually to grass-roots charities and programmes in Scotland.

For further information visit www.boozycow.com, follow us on facebook, twitter @TheBoozyCow and #FromMoo2U


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## pogofish (May 7, 2016)

discobastard said:


> For balance, it's probably worth mentioning that Boozy Cow is planning to hand all of their profits to charity.
> 
> News + Events / The Speratus Group
> 
> What do we think of that?



Wood family "Charity" usually comes with significant strings attached. Often significant associated beneficiaries of a decidedly non-charitable nature.


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## discobastard (May 7, 2016)

pogofish said:


> Wood family "Charity" usually comes with significant strings attached.


Explain?


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## pogofish (May 7, 2016)

discobastard said:


> Explain?



Ian Wood And His Granite Can Of Worms - Aberdeen Voice


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## organicpanda (May 7, 2016)

discobastard said:


> For balance, it's probably worth mentioning that Boozy Cow is planning to hand all of their profits to charity.
> 
> News + Events / The Speratus Group
> 
> ...


I'm happy that money is going to charities, but i do question the drive behind it, a lot of these charitable moves become tax right offs and generate lots of positive publicity for the companies concerned. It also doesn't distract from the fact that his burgers look like they are using the cheapest possible ingredients and that any criticism will be seen as being heartless towards those who are receipt of the charity


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## pogofish (May 7, 2016)

organicpanda said:


> but i do question the drive behind it, a lot of these charitable moves become tax right offs and generate lots of positive publicity for the companies concerned.



Try this then:



> Adventure Philanthropy - We are a private membership society of philanthropists with a unique approach to donating our time and money. Designed to embed philanthropy as part of our lives, our approach combines philanthropy (what we do) with adventure (how we do it) and in good company (who we do it with). We deliver game-changing social impact and life-changing experiences, all within the reassuring structure of a life-enhancing club environment.



And you can still buy-in to Garreth's club to look good and philanthropic, even if you have made loads of money and still don't want to give it away.

The Woods have long been very skilful with their particular slant on moneymaking vs self-interested philanthropy.  This is no different IMO.


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## Greasy Boiler (May 9, 2016)

Yeah the whole gourmet burger thing is getting on my tits too. Plus I'm pretty sure the idea for Dirty Burger was stolen from the late great Philadelphia/Richard Collins.


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## leanderman (May 20, 2016)

Tried Dirty Burger for lunch. Burger only passable. Better chips in Iceland.


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## editor (May 20, 2016)

leanderman said:


> Tried Dirty Burger for lunch. Burger only passable. Better chips in Iceland.


I had to stifle a yawn when I saw the deeply predictable decor. It's all so fucking boring now.


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## leanderman (May 20, 2016)

Bland food, bland decor. 

Even worse, they have an inadequate extractor fan so the place smells very noticeably, and unpleasantly, of fried food.


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## editor (May 20, 2016)

leanderman said:


> Bland food, bland decor.
> 
> Even worse, they have an inadequate extractor fan so the place smells very noticeably, and unpleasantly, of fried food.


And no doubt it wil do a roaring trade!

It's been interesting watching the ludicrously monikered, estate agent-owned Hip Hop Chip Shop opposite turn into a fully fledged bar now. It's supposed to be a restaurant, but when you go past at night it's indistinguishable from any other groovy nu-Brixton bar - no doubt with prices to match.

Annoyingly, the servng hatch (which always seems customer untroubled) hasn't even bothered to list its prices whenever I've gone past, not that I'm ever going to give them money when there's the far superior Jimmy's Place down the road.


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## twistedAM (May 20, 2016)

leanderman said:


> Tried Dirty Burger for lunch. Burger only passable. Better chips in Iceland.



I had lunch in Honest Burger the other day. Pretty good indeed. The lemonade is great too.


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## leanderman (May 20, 2016)

twistedAM said:


> I had lunch in Honest Burger the other day. Pretty good indeed. The lemonade is great too.



Much better option. And cheaper. 

I'd put McDonalds ahead of Dirty Burger.


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## editor (May 20, 2016)

leanderman said:


> Much better option. And cheaper.
> 
> I'd put McDonalds ahead of Dirty Burger.


Blimey. It truly is a dirty burger!


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## cuppa tee (May 20, 2016)

fuck you and your burgers


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## 8ball (May 20, 2016)

leanderman said:


> Much better option. And cheaper.
> 
> I'd put McDonalds ahead of Dirty Burger.



I'd put Big Kahuna Burger ahead of either of them.


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## leanderman (May 21, 2016)

Been discussing this in the pub and a friend says Honest and Patty and Bun are the ones


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## happyshopper (May 25, 2016)

I do enjoy a burger, if only occasionally. But the news that the new restaurant upstairs at the Trinity, following its refurbishment, is going to be a branch of BurgerShack chain just seems weird.


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## Rushy (May 25, 2016)

happyshopper said:


> I do enjoy a burger, if only occasionally. But the news that the new restaurant upstairs at the Trinity, following its refurbishment, is going to be a branch of BurgerShack chain just seems weird.


What what what?!! Really?


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## snowy_again (May 25, 2016)

Plans are on their FB page - removing some of layout downstairs, opening upstairs and appearing to make the garden 'bigger' or perhaps just the bit behind the current bar to the garden etc.


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## Winot (May 25, 2016)

leanderman said:


> Been discussing this in the pub and a friend says Honest and Patty and Bun are the ones



Two recent burger experiences: Giraffe on the South Bank (don't ask) and Honest (Deliveroo). About the same price (£10-ish inc. chips) but like chalk and cheese in terms of taste. Honest has still got it.


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## editor (May 25, 2016)

I don't think I've ever paid ten quid for a burger. It's just a burger, ffs.


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## leanderman (May 25, 2016)

Winot said:


> Two recent burger experiences: Giraffe on the South Bank (don't ask) and Honest (Deliveroo). About the same price (£10-ish inc. chips) but like chalk and cheese in terms of taste. Honest has still got it.



Have you tried the Nanban burger? Better than Honest, I think, but at a price.


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## Winot (May 25, 2016)

leanderman said:


> Have you tried the Nanban burger? Better than Honest, I think, but at a price.



Not yet.


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## editor (May 25, 2016)

leanderman said:


> Have you tried the Nanban burger? Better than Honest, I think, but at a price.


Twelve fucking quid, or £13.45 - yes £1.50 extra - if you throw on a single friend egg.


> Sasebo Burger  £11.95
> Two 100g burger patties with burnt garlic mayo, gochujang burger sauce, pork belly, American cheese, pickled red onion, lettuce, and tomato, served with chips; add a fried egg for £1.5


They'll also serve you a 330cl bottle of Rochefort 8 for £9.50. They must be raking in at least six quid profit on every one.


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## UnderAnOpenSky (May 25, 2016)

I think the price of the beer is the most shocking thing on this thread.


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## discobastard (May 25, 2016)

UnderAnOpenSky said:


> I think the price of the beer is the most shocking thing on this thread.


Actually I think the price of the fried egg just edges it.


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## discobastard (May 25, 2016)

editor said:


> Twelve fucking quid, or £13.45 - yes £1.50 extra - if you throw on a single friend egg.
> 
> They'll also serve you a 330cl bottle of Rochefort 8 for £9.50. They must be raking in at least six quid profit on every one.


They'll be making a fair bit yes but probably not as much as that with wages, rent, insurance, utilities etc etc on top.


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## editor (May 25, 2016)

discobastard said:


> They'll be making a fair bit yes but probably not as much as that with wages, rent, insurance, utilities etc etc on top.


But still a fucking huge chunk given that they've only got to take the top off the bottle.


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## discobastard (May 25, 2016)

editor said:


> But still a fucking huge chunk given that they've only got to take the top off the bottle.


I never suggested otherwise. Though we don't know how much. Just adding for balance/clarity otherwise we end up down a rabbit hole.


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## editor (May 25, 2016)

discobastard said:


> I never suggested otherwise. And we don't know how much. Just adding for balance/clarity otherwise we end up down a rabbit hole.


I think just about every single reader here would already fully understand that businesses have such overheads, so perhaps there really was no need to point out the bleeding obvious. But thanks anyway.


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## discobastard (May 25, 2016)

editor said:


> I think just about every single reader here would already fully understand that businesses have such overheads, so perhaps there really was no need to point out the bleeding obvious. But thanks anyway.


Well, your analysis seemed to omit that so perhaps they don't! No need to be so rude.


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## ViolentPanda (May 25, 2016)

editor said:


> Twelve fucking quid, or £13.45 - yes £1.50 extra - if you throw on a single friend egg.
> 
> They'll also serve you a 330cl bottle of Rochefort 8 for £9.50. They must be raking in at least six quid profit on every one.



*They* would have to pay *me* to eat anything with "American Cheese" (aka dairylea slices or equivalent) on it. Horrible stuff that blandifies everything it comes into contact with!


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## editor (May 25, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> *They* would have to pay *me* to eat anything with "American Cheese" (aka dairylea slices or equivalent) on it. Horrible stuff that blandifies everything it comes into contact with!


From my experiences in America, their cheese is indeed pretty much awful (with a few exceptions).


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## T & P (May 25, 2016)

And sometimes available from one of those 'soap dispensers' like if it were ketchup


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## editor (May 25, 2016)

Still, £23 for a burger and a small bottle of beer, eh? With American cheese.


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## 8ball (May 25, 2016)

editor said:


> Still, £23 for a burger and a small bottle of beer, eh? With American cheese.



I'm a bit wary of burgers made with super-good beef - seems a bit OTT, but if it's really good and comes with good sides that's not so bad for London.
Though they seem to be going a bit overboard on exotic names - makes me a bit sus.

The beer, mind... massive fucking cheek.
And yeah,  American cheese.
Not good.

edit: actually it's not a fancy kind of beef.  Looks good aside from some of the mental drinks prices, though.  Just hold the cheese...


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## discobastard (May 26, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> *They* would have to pay *me* to eat anything with "American Cheese" (aka dairylea slices or equivalent) on it. Horrible stuff that blandifies everything it comes into contact with!





editor said:


> From my experiences in America, their cheese is indeed pretty much awful (with a few exceptions).



Something we all agree on at last 

editor I'm heading Stateside in July and that will involve a lot of eating.  Which are the exceptions/recommendations?


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## editor (May 26, 2016)

discobastard said:


> Something we all agree on at last
> 
> editor I'm heading Stateside in July and that will involve a lot of eating.  Which are the exceptions/recommendations?


You'll have to go to a decent deli and ask around and look at the ingredients closely.

Most of the stuff they sell is _really_ lacking in bite. If you see 'Monterey Jack' keep your money in your pocket. Their EXTRA EXTRA strong version is like cheap mild cheese, and loads of their cheeses are processed to fuck with weird shit added.


> Because American cheese has so many additives, it is illegal to label it as “cheese” in many countries, including America. According to the FDA, when a product contains more than 51% additional ingredients, it is no longer itself. Processed cheese product isn’t cheese.


American Cheese is as real as much as it was invented in America.


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## discobastard (May 26, 2016)

editor said:


> You'll have to go to a decent deli and ask around and look at the ingredients closely.
> 
> Most of the stuff they sell is _really_ lacking in bite. If you see 'Monterey Jack' keep your money in your pocket. Their EXTRA EXTRA strong version is like cheap mild cheese, and loads of their cheeses are processed to fuck with weird shit added.
> 
> American Cheese is as real as much as it was invented in America.


'Processed cheese product'.  Good god.  I consider myself warned.

Last time I went to NY (about 15 months ago) I ate at Pearl and Ash. Expensive-ish but not insanely so.  Amazing fish.  But the artisan cheese was still a bit meh.  Would still go back mind.


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## 8ball (May 26, 2016)

...sometimes also called 'processed cheese _food_'.

Because "product" comes over as a little clinical.


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## 8ball (May 26, 2016)

Here's an ace variant of 'American cheese':

In Soviet America, Government cheeses you.

And when I was working in Delaware (every bit as exciting as you've heard), I was actually warned off this stuff by my Doodle Dandy colleagues.


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## discobastard (May 26, 2016)

The while provenance of food thing is very complex.  
Food labelling and packaging - GOV.UK

(I may have already posted this, but...)

Currently in the UK we don't have a hard or legally enforceable definition of the word 'Artisan' as far as I'm aware, but in the Republic of Ireland they have stamped on it quite hard:
McDonald’s ‘artisan’ burger fails to cut mustard with authority

New Guidance for the Use of Food Marketing Terms

It all has implications for the stuff we're discussing, much more far-reaching than current conversation but its getting rather late.

In short, people use words to describe stuff, those words become assimilated by many, and they eventually become meaningless from a practical/realistic POV as they become the language of marketing rather than product.

Two good examples are 'authentic' and 'artisan'.  Some are easy to define and some aren't.  An authentic curry on this forum might mean one you have in Tooting (yeah I love em), but equally one you have in Hyderabad on a work trip.  

But then there is also the stealthy stuff like 'hand-filled'.  It means fuck all in some cases, but lots of people's brains take shortcuts and so we buy this shit because we think its better because of the verbal and visual cues we get fed.

Massive ramble.  Some of this may even be coherent.  But we let language rule/influence us far too much when it comes to the basics of what we are actually eating.  NOBODY IS IMMUNE.


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## editor (May 26, 2016)

discobastard said:


> The while provenance of food thing is very complex.
> Food labelling and packaging - GOV.UK
> 
> (I may have already posted this, but...)
> ...


"Caribbean" restaurant should be one of those words in Brixton (see: Turtle Bay/Barrio/Rum Kitchen/Boom Burger etc).


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## discobastard (May 26, 2016)

editor said:


> "Caribbean" restaurant should be one of those words in Brixton (see: Turtle Bay/Barrio/Rum Kitchen/Boom Burger etc).


And I can see why you would want to include that in legislation, but then you would have to include Indian, Chinese, Italian, Japanese etc in that.  And I'm sure many native individuals are incandescent about some of the dishes that get passed off in this country as 'authentic'.
'Authentic' has been used here as a descriptor that supposedly means 'acceptable', but I'd be impressed if anybody could actually come up with a single definition that everybody agrees with.  Nobody ever will as it is all so subjective
Totally get your point, but practically its just another rabbit hole.


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## Bakunin (May 26, 2016)

The people at Smokey's in Walsall have alreadt reached Peak Burger, methinks:


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## alex_ (May 26, 2016)

editor said:


> Twelve fucking quid, or £13.45 - yes £1.50 extra - if you throw on a single friend egg.
> 
> They'll also serve you a 330cl bottle of Rochefort 8 for £9.50. They must be raking in at least six quid profit on every one.



Standard markup on food/booze in restaurants is 300 to 400%, so this is standard. I bet craft Brixton have bottles which are nearly 20 quid.

Alex


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## UnderAnOpenSky (May 26, 2016)

Bakunin said:


> The people at Smokey's in Walsall have alreadt reached Peak Burger, methinks:



I really like burgers, but that just looks a bit grim. It's for novelty value of course, but I wonder how much that would cost in Brixton.


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## 8ball (May 26, 2016)

UnderAnOpenSky said:


> I really like burgers, but that just looks a bit grim. It's for novelty value of course, but I wonder how much that would cost in Brixton.



£150,000 pounds and it would be a Sandinista flag on top.


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## ViolentPanda (May 26, 2016)

T & P said:


> And sometimes available from one of those 'soap dispensers' like if it were ketchup



It could be worse. I remember visiting a pub round Smithfield way in the late '80s that used Cheez Whiz "specially imported from the US for your pleasure" in their burgers. Horrible.


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## ViolentPanda (May 26, 2016)

8ball said:


> Here's an ace variant of 'American cheese':
> 
> In Soviet America, Government cheeses you.
> 
> And when I was working in Delaware (every bit as exciting as you've heard), I was actually warned off this stuff by my Doodle Dandy colleagues.



It *is* fucking awful, and incredibly fatty.


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