# Allotments in the Tower of London moat



## RubyToogood (Aug 11, 2013)

A friend just told me that during WWII there were allotments in the moat of the Tower of London, as part of the Dig for Victory thing.







Getty image of incredibly neat and healthy looking veg. The bones of slaughtered minor royalty must be really good fertiliser.

I bet they dug up some interesting stuff...


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## ringo (Aug 12, 2013)

Nice pic. I spent 6 months digging in the moat in the late 90's just by that spot. Found loads of stuff, but never what I really wanted - a polar bear skeleton. It's there somewhere, from when London zoo was housed there, arising from the gifts of wild animals given to the Royal family as presents by visiting dignitaries.


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## ringo (Aug 12, 2013)

Found another pic of the allotments


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## ringo (Aug 12, 2013)

Another of the same place. The bridge crossing the moat in the distance is also the Royal family pet cemetery which is still in use by the current incumbents. I dug a fantastic 17th century sluice gate next to it, under the ever-watchful eye of an old lady who was horrified that I might dig up her dead dog.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 12, 2013)

ringo said:


> under the ever-watchful eye of an old lady who was horrified that I might dig up her dead dog.


 
A corgi?


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## ringo (Aug 12, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> A corgi?


 
Not that old lady


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## _pH_ (Aug 12, 2013)

ringo said:


> Nice pic. I spent 6 months digging in the moat in the late 90's just by that spot. Found loads of stuff, but never what I really wanted - a polar bear skeleton. It's there somewhere, from when London zoo was housed there, arising from the gifts of wild animals given to the Royal family as presents by visiting dignitaries.


Was that London Zoo? Or just the Royal menagerie? I think it was King John who first established a menagerie there which pre-dates ZSL by a long time.

edit: here we go, it was the menagerie but the animals were transferred to the Zoo in the 1830s


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## _pH_ (Aug 12, 2013)

Also: large areas of the Royal Parks were turned into allotments during the war; there was a reconstruction of a wartime allotment in St James's Park when I was working there a few years back. As well as parts of it being dug up to grow food, Bushy Park was an American base in the war, Eisenhower set up his HQ there.


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## RubyToogood (Aug 12, 2013)

ringo said:


> Nice pic. I spent 6 months digging in the moat in the late 90's just by that spot. Found loads of stuff


Like what?


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 12, 2013)

So are all the other animals that used to roam St James's Park (eg. elephants, crocodiles etc) buried in The Tower?


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## _pH_ (Aug 12, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> So are all the other animals that used to roam St James's Park (eg. elephants, crocodiles etc) buried in The Tower?


They're still on the menu at Inn The Park.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 12, 2013)




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## ringo (Aug 12, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> So are all the other animals that used to roam St James's Park (eg. elephants, crocodiles etc) buried in The Tower?


 
Don't know, seems to be the one of the few things detailed records don't exist for at the Tower.


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## ringo (Aug 12, 2013)

RubyToogood said:


> Like what?


 
An earlier bridge across the moat built in the 11th century at the same time as the White Tower. Nobody knew it was there, but this colossal thing was lurking just beneath the turf. The Palace historians went to work and brought us photocopies of the original order from William The Conquerors court for 1000 trees to be felled in Sherwood Forest to be driven in to the clay as piles for the bridge to be built upon. It was a massive engineering mistake and the whole bridge sunk as soon as it was finished.

There was loads of stuff - too much & too expensive for the full excavation originally planned so that the moat could be re-flooded for the Millenium.

The sluice gate I dug was put together by top craftsmen, beautiful workmanship on the joinery. After I'd drawn it at scale the historians brought me a copy of the original plan for it from the records 

One really stupid thing I did was fully excavate a section of a caisson - a wooden honey-comb structure which acts like a floating, raft like scaffold on which people could work on deep clay and water. Each section was about 80cm square and went down about 4 metres a bit like this:






I dug one out, then took rubbings of the maker's 'broken arrow' mark at the base. If the water pressure had been great enough the sides would have imploded and probably killed me. It's stupid the stuff you do when you're a nipper and think you're invincible.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 12, 2013)

ringo said:


> Don't know, seems to be the one of the few things detailed records don't exist for at the Tower.


 
Royal Family are probably keeping the records secret so the taxpayer doesn't know how much their pets cost them


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 12, 2013)

ringo said:


> An earlier bridge across the moat built in the 11th century at the same time as the White Tower. Nobody knew it was there, but this colossal thing was lurking just beneath the turf. The Palace historians went to work and brought us photocopies of the original order from William The Conquerors court for 1000 trees to be felled in Sherwood Forest to be driven in to the clay as piles for the bridge to be built upon. It was a massive engineering mistake and the whole bridge sunk as soon as it was finished.


 
What a waste of 1000 trees


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## _pH_ (Aug 12, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> What a waste of 1000 trees


Why?


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## clicker (Aug 12, 2013)

_pH_ said:


> Also: large areas of the Royal Parks were turned into allotments during the war; there was a reconstruction of a wartime allotment in St James's Park when I was working there a few years back. As well as parts of it being dug up to grow food, Bushy Park was an American base in the war, Eisenhower set up his HQ there.


 






Hello again PH! Yes, i remember the St James Park reconstruction...I took this of the perfect celery planter.....


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 12, 2013)

_pH_ said:


> Why?


 


> It was a massive engineering mistake and the whole bridge sunk as soon as it was finished.


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## _pH_ (Aug 12, 2013)

ringo said:


> An earlier bridge across the moat built in the 11th century at the same time as the White Tower. Nobody knew it was there, but this colossal thing was lurking just beneath the turf. The Palace historians went to work and brought us photocopies of the original order from William The Conquerors court for 1000 trees to be felled in Sherwood Forest to be driven in to the clay as piles for the bridge to be built upon. It was a massive engineering mistake and the whole bridge sunk as soon as it was finished.


 
I think a lot of the building works round there had the same problem - the Postern Gate that was uncovered when they dug the subway at Tower Hill is evidence of that. The first one sank and collapsed in 1431:



> the same yere, in the monythe of Juylle, the xvij day, the posterne be-syde the Towre sanke downe into the erthe vij fote and more


 (from Gregory's Chronicle)

and the replacement was so shoddy that John Stow wrote in 'A Survey of London':



> such was their negligence then, and hath bred some trouble to their successors, since they suffered a weake and wooden building to be there made, inhabited by persons of lewde life


 
It always makes me think of this:



Great post btw ringo, thanks for that.


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## _pH_ (Aug 12, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


>


Oh right fair enough, I thought you were just being all 'oooh, save the trees! won't someone think of the trees!'. Sorry minnie.


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## _pH_ (Aug 12, 2013)

Sorry, going a bit off topic, but there was once a menagerie on the Strand, in the early 19th century, at Exeter Exchange. Apparently there were hippos on the 2nd floor, how did they get them up the stairs?? There was an elephant called Chunee who went a bit mad and rampagey and was shot by soldiers sent for from Somerset House


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## _pH_ (Aug 12, 2013)

clicker said:


> Hello again PH! Yes, i remember the St James Park reconstruction...I took this of the perfect celery planter.....


 
That's a good idea! Although some of the people I worked with at the Parks, I wouldn't want to eat celery grown in their boots...

I liked the allotment, I was running the Royal Parks apprenticeship at the time and it was a good resource for the apprentices to learn a bit about veg growing, when most of what they learned was more on the amenity side. It was a great resource for school groups too. A shame when it went.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 12, 2013)

_pH_ said:


> Oh right fair enough, I thought you were just being all 'oooh, save the trees! won't someone think of the trees!'. Sorry minnie.


 
Not at all 

Was thinking of all the poor sods involved in dragging those trees from the forest and the poor builders that used them, only to see a massve failure 

and of course for the waste of trees.  If they'd done the job, all grand.  No objection to cutting them down, but they were wasted.  Wonder what happened to them.  Did they retrieve them all, dry them out and use as wood for the fireplaces?


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## ringo (Aug 12, 2013)

Just remembered I also found a lady's sewing kit and the metal part from a halberd, probably not owned by the same person  :


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 12, 2013)

_pH_ said:


> Sorry, going a bit off topic, but there was once a menagerie on the Strand, in the early 19th century, at Exeter Exchange. Apparently there were hippos on the 2nd floor, how did they get them up the stairs?? There was an elephant called Chunee who went a bit mad and rampagey and was shot by soldiers sent for from Somerset House


 
Big window, tranquilised hippo, hoist?  Or train the hippo to go up stairs 

There was a menagerie on Birdcage Walk as well, although I suppose the name sort of gives it away


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## twentythreedom (Aug 12, 2013)

ringo how did you come to be digging holes at the Tower?


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## clicker (Aug 12, 2013)

Why put hippos on the second floor?? Unless they had elephants on the ground floor? That still leaves the empty first floor though...unless they had giraffes on the ground floor and took out the ceiling...

eta - loving this thread


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## _pH_ (Aug 12, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Not at all
> 
> Was thinking of all the poor sods involved in dragging those trees from the forest and the poor builders that used them, only to see a massve failure
> 
> and of course for the waste of trees. If they'd done the job, all grand. No objection to cutting them down, but they were wasted. Wonder what happened to them. Did they retrieve them all, dry them out and use as wood for the fireplaces?


The effort of digging them up when they'd been driven them into the sticky London clay probably made it too difficult so maybe they're still there, unlikely to decay if they're beneath the river. Get your spade out minnie!

Archaeologists still sometimes dig up old hollowed elm trunks in London that were used as water pipes, they don't decay very quickly either.


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## _pH_ (Aug 12, 2013)

clicker said:


> Why put hippos on the second floor?? Unless they had elephants on the ground floor? That still leaves the empty first floor though...unless they had giraffes on the ground floor and took out the ceiling...
> 
> eta - loving this thread


I don't know. I might be wrong about that tbf, I'm going by what I remember of a lecture about that I went to with mango5 at King's a couple of years back. Maybe she'll remember better than me.

This is my favourite type of thread.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 12, 2013)

_pH_ said:


> The effort of digging them up when they'd been driven them into the sticky London clay probably made it too difficult so maybe they're still there, unlikely to decay if they're beneath the river. Get your spade out minnie!


 

Not enough room in my garden, and I have central heating 

Are you any good at furniture making?


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## ringo (Aug 12, 2013)

twentythreedom said:


> ringo how did you come to be digging holes at the Tower?


 
I was an archaeologist for about 10 years. Ended up working for the Oxford unit for a couple of years as they were the biggest unit in the country. They had the contract for all the Royal Palaces at the time so I was on the evaluation dig at the Tower. Loads of my mates also worked at Hampton Court Palace but I never did.

I later worked for the Museum Of London for a couple of years, mostly big developments in the square mile - best archaeology in the country.

Gave it up due to terminal poverty; still can't decide if that was the right or wrong thing to do as I later realised it was my only vocation.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 12, 2013)

ringo said:


> I was an archaeologist for about 10 years. Ended up working for the Oxford unit for a couple of years as they were the biggest unit in the country. They had the contract for all the Royal Palaces at the time so I was on the evaluation dig at the Tower. Loads of my mates also worked at Hampton Court Palace but I never did.
> 
> I later worked for the Museum Of London for a couple of years, mostly big developments in the square mile - best archaeology in the country.
> 
> Gave it up due to terminal poverty; still can't decide if that was the right or wrong thing to do as I later realised it was my only vocation.


 
Oh, working in the City must have been exciting.  What did you find (other than buried Roman walls etc)?  (I'm just assuming you excavated Roman buildings)


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## _pH_ (Aug 12, 2013)

ringo said:


> I was an archaeologist for about 10 years. Ended up working for the Oxford unit for a couple of years as they were the biggest unit in the country. They had the contract for all the Royal Palaces at the time so I was on the evaluation dig at the Tower. Loads of my mates also worked at Hampton Court Palace but I never did.
> 
> I later worked for the Museum Of London for a couple of years, mostly big developments in the square mile - best archaeology in the country.
> 
> Gave it up due to terminal poverty; still can't decide if that was the right or wrong thing to do as I later realised it was my only vocation.


That is a REAL shame. I would love to do something like that (working for MoLA would be ace), but I know it would be pretty difficult to survive on the sort of salaries being paid. Are you involved with COLAS at all ringo?


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## mrsfran (Aug 12, 2013)

ringo said:


> I was an archaeologist for about 10 years. Ended up working for the Oxford unit for a couple of years as they were the biggest unit in the country. They had the contract for all the Royal Palaces at the time so I was on the evaluation dig at the Tower. Loads of my mates also worked at Hampton Court Palace but I never did.
> 
> I later worked for the Museum Of London for a couple of years, mostly big developments in the square mile - best archaeology in the country.
> 
> Gave it up due to terminal poverty; still can't decide if that was the right or wrong thing to do as I later realised it was my only vocation.


 

It sounds like an amazing job. Tell us about the things you found! I'd love to hear all about it.


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## _pH_ (Aug 12, 2013)

mrsfran said:


> It sounds like an amazing job. Tell us about the things you found! I'd love to hear all about it.


Me too. I am imagining a load of us sitting cross legged on the carpet while Ringo sits in the Story Chair. Ssshh children! Fingers on lips!


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 12, 2013)

_pH_ said:


> Me too. I am imagining a load of us sitting cross legged on the carpet while Ringo sits in the Story Chair. Ssshh children! Fingers on lips!


 
I reckon he'd exaggerate and say he dug up fire-breathing dragons


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## twentythreedom (Aug 12, 2013)

tell us about unearthing rare medieval jamaican 7"s please ringo 

Digging for rare vinyl is archaeology really, I guess


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## ringo (Aug 12, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Oh, working in the City must have been exciting. What did you find (other than buried Roman walls etc)? (I'm just assuming you excavated Roman buildings)


 
Yep, the square mile is the same as the limits of the Roman city, so anywhere you dig inside it you can find several metres of stratigraphy, usually revealing 2000 years of continuous habitation. A thin reddish layer can be seen across most of the City - the deposited by the fire which burned many if the buildings as a result of the Boudiccan revolt.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 12, 2013)

ringo said:


> Yep, the square mile is the same as the limits of the Roman city, so anywhere you dig inside it you can find several metres of stratigraphy, usually revealing 2000 years of continuous habitation. A thin reddish layer can be seen across most of the City - the deposited by the fire which burned many if the buildings as a result of the Boudiccan revolt.


 
Yes, but what did you find besides *that*?!

Pottery, jewellery, fire-breathing dragons?


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## mrsfran (Aug 12, 2013)

ringo said:


> Yep, the square mile is the same as the limits of the Roman city, so anywhere you dig inside it you can find several metres of stratigraphy, usually revealing 2000 years of continuous habitation. A thin reddish layer can be seen across most of the City - the deposited by the fire which burned many if the buildings as a result of the Boudiccan revolt.


 

SO COOL.


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## mrsfran (Aug 12, 2013)

Now I want to go and dig things.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 12, 2013)

and also ringo, did you find anything that's now on display in a museum anywhere?


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## mrsfran (Aug 12, 2013)

I'm going to see the Pompeii exhibition at the BM next week, I might pop to the Museum of London now too


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## clicker (Aug 12, 2013)

any photos of your finds? what do you do if you unearth human remains?


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 12, 2013)

Slightly off topic, but I decided to see if my friend's husband was still a guard there.  I found a list of Yeoman Warders and his name's there, but he retired

http://yeomenoftheguard.com/Yeoman Warders List.pdf


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## ringo (Aug 12, 2013)

mrsfran said:


> It sounds like an amazing job. Tell us about the things you found! I'd love to hear all about it.


 
Best two objects I found:

1. Digging a Viking long house on South Uist in the Outer Hebrides. In the collapsed roof I found a comb made from tiny worked bone with an intricate geometric pattern carved into it. Looked just like this one:







2. Teaching students in France we were looking for the site of Gergovie (as in the last stand of Vercingetorix -Asterix, last village in Gaul etc). The Iron Age inhabitants developed a form of Celtic art featuring painted horses on large white vases. At the start of the Iron Age they looked like realistic horses. By the time the Romans invaded they had developed them into Dali style impressions of horses, the limbs and tail swirling around like spirals. I found a vase which filled in a stylistic gap so that from then on we know how they got from one primitive style to a more complex design. Probably the only thing I ever found that went into a museum.


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## _pH_ (Aug 12, 2013)

mrsfran said:


> Now I want to go and dig things.


Try joining COLAS - I think they occasionally have opportunities for members to join digs.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 12, 2013)

ringo said:


> Best two objects I found:
> 
> 1. Digging a Viking long house on South Uist in the Outer Hebrides. In the collapsed roof I found a comb made from tiny worked bone with an intricate geometric pattern carved into it. Looked just like this one:
> 
> ...


 


What museum did it go to?  Don't you have a picture of it in the museum?


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## mrsfran (Aug 12, 2013)

_pH_ said:


> Try joining COLAS - I think they occasionally have opportunities for members to join digs.


 

Cool, thanks.


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## ringo (Aug 12, 2013)

_pH_ said:


> That is a REAL shame. I would love to do something like that (working for MoLA would be ace), but I know it would be pretty difficult to survive on the sort of salaries being paid. Are you involved with COLAS at all ringo?


 
Yeah, my mates are still skint and moaning, but they also know how lucky they are. I don't do any archaeology at the moment.

clicker - I have some pics at home, I'll have to dig some out. I dug a lot of human skeletons, it was my main interest at Uni. At that French dig we found quite a few Iron Age skeletons - I brought them back to England and did the osteological reports on them for my dissertaion. Nearly didn't get through customs when they found out what I had in the boxes . Six of the skulls were in tiny pieces so I had to glue them back together - like a giant 3D puzzle, took hours and hours.


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## mrsfran (Aug 12, 2013)

ringo said:


> 2. Teaching students in France we were looking for the site of Gergovie (as in the last stand of Vercingetorix -Asterix, last village in Gaul etc). The Iron Age inhabitants developed a form of Celtic art featuring painted horses on large white vases. At the start of the Iron Age they looked like realistic horses. By the time the Romans invaded they had developed them into Dali style impressions of horses, the limbs and tail swirling around like spirals. I found a vase which filled in a stylistic gap so that from then on we know how they got from one primitive style to a more complex design. Probably the only thing I ever found that went into a museum.


 

You found the Missing Link 

When you go to a museum, what do you look at? I like the more personal finds - notes, graffiti, clothes.


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## mrsfran (Aug 12, 2013)

ringo - where did you study? The archeologists at UCL were a hardcore group. Do you know Big Mike?


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 12, 2013)

ringo said:


> Yeah, my mates are still skint and moaning, but they also know how lucky they are. I don't do any archaeology at the moment.
> 
> clicker - I have some pics at home, I'll have to dig some out. I dug a lot of human skeletons, it was my main interest at Uni. At that French dig we found quite a few Iron Age skeletons - I brought them back to England and did the osteological reports on them for my dissertaion. Nearly didn't get through customs when they found out what I had in the boxes . Six of the skulls were in tiny pieces so I had to glue them back together - like a giant 3D puzzle, took hours and hours.


 
Oh, any pictures of the skulls before and after?


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## _pH_ (Aug 12, 2013)

ringo said:


> Best two objects I found:
> 
> 1. Digging a Viking long house on South Uist in the Outer Hebrides. In the collapsed roof I found a comb made from tiny worked bone with an intricate geometric pattern carved into it. Looked just like this one:
> 
> ...


I very very rarely click on 'like' but I had to for this. That's fantastic ringo!


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## ringo (Aug 12, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> What museum did it go to? Don't you have a picture of it in the museum?


 
It went to the main museum for the area in Clermont-Ferrand. The head conservator brought it down to the house we were staying at for me to see once they'd finished it, but I never thought to take picture of it. I have some pics at home but can no longer remember if its my one of another similar. I'll do it at some point, would make a good tattoo.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 12, 2013)

ringo said:


> It went to the main museum for the area in Clermont-Ferrand. The head conservator brought it down to the house we were staying at for me to see once they'd finished it, but I never thought to take picture of it. I have some pics at home but can no longer remember if its my one of another similar. I'll do it at some point, would make a good tattoo.


 
You should keep an eye on the travel thread and if anyone's going to France for a holiday, get them to pop in and take some pictures for you if they're anywhere near


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## mrsfran (Aug 12, 2013)

Comme ca?

http://a134.idata.over-blog.com/163...Dossier-27/Dossier-28/vase-peint-Gergovie.jpg


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## Puddy_Tat (Aug 12, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Not enough room in my garden, and I have central heating


 
it took me a moment to establish whether this was in relation to trees or hippos. 



i must pay more attention...


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 12, 2013)

Puddy_Tat said:


> it took me a moment to establish whether this was in relation to trees or hippos.
> 
> 
> 
> i must pay more attention...


 
Well I don't have enough room in my garden for a hippo, and whilst a hippo farting might heat up my tiny front room, I'd imagine I'd have to open the windows to air the place


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## ringo (Aug 12, 2013)

mrsfran said:


> Comme ca?
> 
> http://a134.idata.over-blog.com/163...Dossier-27/Dossier-28/vase-peint-Gergovie.jpg


 
I don't think that's the exact one, but yes it was one of those


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## ringo (Aug 12, 2013)

mrsfran said:


> You found the Missing Link
> 
> When you go to a museum, what do you look at? I like the more personal finds - notes, graffiti, clothes.


 
Yes same, the stuff that gives you a little snapshot of somebody's every day life.



mrsfran said:


> ringo - where did you study? The archeologists at UCL were a hardcore group. Do you know Big Mike?


 
Sheffield, early 90's. Most of the field archaeologists in the UK studied at Sheffield, Bournemouth or UCL. I've known a couple of Big Mikes, both had dreads, but that doesn't narrow it down much in archaeology


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## twentythreedom (Aug 12, 2013)

fascinating stuff ringo


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 12, 2013)

ringo said:


> I don't think that's the exact one, but yes it was one of those


 


Was it in better or worse nick than that?


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## mrsfran (Aug 12, 2013)

ringo said:


> Yes same, the stuff that gives you a little snapshot of somebody's every day life.
> 
> 
> 
> Sheffield, early 90's. Most of the field archaeologists in the UK studied at Sheffield, Bournemouth or UCL. I've known a couple of Big Mikes, both had dreads, but that doesn't narrow it down much in archaeology


 

Massive goth bloke, big beard.


... that probably doesn't narrow it down much either...


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## ringo (Aug 12, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Was it in better or worse nick than that?




Worse when I found it, I had to bandage it up as I removed the earth with a dental pick & paint brush so that it didn't fall apart and painting was hard to see. The conservators took it to bits, cleaned it and glued it back together, a mammoth job. I never found out if the contents revealed anything.


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## ringo (Aug 12, 2013)

mrsfran said:


> Massive goth bloke, big beard.
> 
> 
> ... that probably doesn't narrow it down much either...



Not much


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 12, 2013)

ringo said:


> Worse when I found it, I had to bandage it up as I removed the earth with a dental pick & paint brush so that it didn't fall apart and painting was hard to see. The conservators took it to bits, cleaned it and glued it back together, a mammoth job. I never found out if the contents revealed anything.


 
I bet being a conservator is a great job as well.  Finally revealing what something looks like must be great


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## mango5 (Aug 14, 2013)

It was an elephant on the first floor if I remember rightly.  We went to this lecture.

The elephant was Chunee, who came to a bad end.  The zoo/menagerie at the 'Exeter Exchange' where the Strand Palace Hotel is now.  Read more here.


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## ringo (Aug 20, 2013)

ringo said:


> Yeah, my mates are still skint and moaning, but they also know how lucky they are. I don't do any archaeology at the moment.
> 
> clicker - I have some pics at home, I'll have to dig some out. I dug a lot of human skeletons, it was my main interest at Uni. At that French dig we found quite a few Iron Age skeletons - I brought them back to England and did the osteological reports on them for my dissertaion. Nearly didn't get through customs when they found out what I had in the boxes . Six of the skulls were in tiny pieces so I had to glue them back together - like a giant 3D puzzle, took hours and hours.


 
Found a pic online of one of the skeletons I excavated and brought back to the UK to study. Some nice shale & bronze bracelets and pots with her.


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## ringo (Aug 20, 2013)

I think I've found my La Tene vase, I'll have to check with the pics I have in my loft 





Some others:


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## Ponyutd (Aug 20, 2013)

Today's offerings from the Thames. Two nice 17th century trading tokens, Napoleon 111 coin, manorial pipe(broken), medieval pins, half a gentleman's wig curler, lead cow, bits and pieces. I love the face on the broken piece of pottery (bottom left). And of course the obligatory iphone/ipod 

The 20th of August is always tinged with a little sadness on my birthday. In 1989  myself along with a lot of friends, caught a party boat on the river. Ahead of The Mayflower Garden (our boat) was the Hurlingham and in front of that was The Marchioness.

I can still see quite vividly the row after row of flashing blue lights in the night sky of Police and Ambulances. The lights and music on the boat were switched off and we all took to the sides of the boat looking out for survivors.
We didn't find out the full extent of the loss of life till much later.
Sorry for the derail.


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## mrsfran (Aug 20, 2013)

Ponyutd - what do you do, just pop down to the banks? Do you go with a group or on your own? How can I do it?


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## Ponyutd (Aug 20, 2013)

You can go to Thames and walk the foreshore. Anything you find you're entitled to pick up. You must report anything of interest to the museum of London or a local Finds Liason Officer (flo)
If you want to scrap (up to three inches) you need a permit. A three year permit can be purchased form the London Port Authority. They also do day permits. The river can be seriously dangerous. Mudholes for one, and it doesn't take much to be cut off from safety. Go to Rotherhithe or surrounding areas, there are stairs(as opposed to ladders) and you can search a large area....with the stairs in site.
Any help...p.m. me, be glad to help.


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## Onket (Aug 21, 2013)

Ponyutd said:


> You can go to Thames and walk the foreshore. Anything you find you're entitled to pick up. You must report anything of interest to the museum of London or a local Finds Liason Officer (flo)
> If you want to scrap (up to three inches) you need a permit. A three year permit can be purchased form the London Port Authority. They also do day permits. The river can be seriously dangerous. Mudholes for one, and it doesn't take much to be cut off from safety. Go to Rotherhithe or surrounding areas, there are stairs(as opposed to ladders) and you can search a large area....with the stairs in site.
> Any help...p.m. me, be glad to help.


 
I've done this quite a few times and never really found anything. Perhaps there are good spots and bad spots (makes sense, really, tides, currents, etc). Can't quite believe you found all that in one day!! You must have a metal detector too, I am guessing.


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## mango5 (Aug 21, 2013)

It would be fab to have a proper guided Urban mudlarking day out. Happy to help organise if knowledgeable folk advise


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## toggle (Aug 21, 2013)

ringo said:


> I later worked for the Museum Of London for a couple of years, mostly big developments in the square mile - best archaeology in the country.


 
my archaeology tutor worked there for a few years, i believe on the rather sizable collection of bones they have there. I have a distinct impression that he would have definitely preferred to have stayed there rather than teaching a tacked on module to a group of history students that really weren't all that interested in what he was teaching


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## Ponyutd (Aug 21, 2013)

Onket said:


> I've done this quite a few times and never really found anything. Perhaps there are good spots and bad spots (makes sense, really, tides, currents, etc). Can't quite believe you found all that in one day!! You must have a metal detector too, I am guessing.


 
Yes I do have a detector. But believe me it's not essential. There's a mate of mine who does the river with a detector, his wife never uses one. She is amazing what she finds "eyes only" as it called.
Today's haul from a new spot...










Nice gold coloured railway coat button, cuff link and bits.


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## mrsfran (Aug 26, 2013)

mango5 said:


> It would be fab to have a proper guided Urban mudlarking day out. Happy to help organise if knowledgeable folk advise


That would be amazing! ringo Ponyutd would you do it? Please!


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## trashpony (Aug 26, 2013)

_pH_ said:


> That's a good idea! Although some of the people I worked with at the Parks, I wouldn't want to eat celery grown in their boots...
> 
> I liked the allotment, I was running the Royal Parks apprenticeship at the time and it was a good resource for the apprentices to learn a bit about veg growing, when most of what they learned was more on the amenity side. It was a great resource for school groups too. A shame when it went.


It was ace. I took the foal there a lot when he was a little'un (or littler than he is now at any rate)


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## ringo (Aug 29, 2013)

mrsfran said:


> That would be amazing! ringo Ponyutd would you do it? Please!


 
Sounds great. I've never been mudlarking so guidance from Ponyutd would be good, but I do have a good eye for finding shiny things


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## Ponyutd (Aug 29, 2013)

I would be more than happy to do this. The only thing is pinning a date down, I have just bought a scooter for getting in to town for the soul reason of just hopping on when I get the time.
It really is pain, but if a date becomes available, maybe it can be done. That's the thing here I think, getting an agreeable date.


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## Onket (Aug 29, 2013)

Nice one.

Weekday afternoon so I can skip work, please!


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## _pH_ (Aug 29, 2013)

Yes, let's go get muddy.


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## Onket (Aug 29, 2013)

In the sun, please.


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## _pH_ (Aug 29, 2013)

Onket said:


> In the sun, please.


You want the moon on a stick!

Or the sun on a stick.


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## Mr Smin (Aug 30, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> What a waste of 1000 trees


 
at the time the waste of human effort would have been more significant. trees were plentiful.


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## Onket (Sep 17, 2013)

This weekend-

www.thames21.org.uk


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## clicker (Sep 17, 2013)

I went on a clean up the river quaggy day with them...in glorious sunshine. Found quite a haul from heaps of toy money to stanley knives and plenty of bottles. I'd love to find something old along the thames.i must be crap at spotting stuff. The amount of time i spend walking along it and not even a clay pipe. Although was amazed by the literally hundreds of bones and oyster shells near the tower of london.


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