# Julie Burchill forced to apologise for twitter comments , and pay out a fat wedge .



## marty21 (Mar 16, 2021)

Julie Burchill agrees to pay Ash Sarkar 'substantial damages' in libel case
					

Columnist apologises to journalist, acknowledging social media posts included ‘racist and misogynist’ comments




					www.theguardian.com
				




Burchill basically accused Ash Sarkar of various nasty stuff , such as worshipping a paedo ,and encouraged a nasty social media pile on , enthusiastically supported by various cunts. 

Now she has to publicly apologise,  and pay a fat wedge (undisclosed amount) to Ash Sarkar. 

I know Ash Sarkar gets stick , some may be warranted , and she doles it out too. This was a nasty pile on . Burchill got cancelled as a result,  lost her publishing deal (A book on the woke   ) but this legal settlement actually un-cancels her (another publisher has offered to publish the woke book ) .


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## Santino (Mar 16, 2021)

Ironic that she referred to nonce-apologist Rod Liddle in her apology.


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## Sasaferrato (Mar 16, 2021)

Is the baying mob getting a book deal cancelled not on par with burning books?


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## marty21 (Mar 16, 2021)

Sasaferrato said:


> Is the baying mob getting a book deal cancelled not on par with burning books?


No , the publisher decided to cancel the contract,  the book wasn't banned, it wasn't actually a book yet. It will be published by another publisher.  Interesting that your take on this was the canceled book deal.


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## Pickman's model (Mar 16, 2021)

marty21 said:


> Julie Burchill agrees to pay Ash Sarkar 'substantial damages' in libel case
> 
> 
> Columnist apologises to journalist, acknowledging social media posts included ‘racist and misogynist’ comments
> ...


Turned out nice again


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## marty21 (Mar 16, 2021)

Santino said:


> Ironic that she referred to nonce-apologist Rod Liddle in her apology.


That's what kicked it off , Ash Sarkar referring to an article where he admitted he couldn't be a teacher as it would lead to noncery.


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## Orang Utan (Mar 16, 2021)

Santino said:


> Ironic that she referred to nonce-apologist Rod Liddle in her apology.


I think apologist is superfluous. He’s a self-confessed nonce


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## nogojones (Mar 16, 2021)

Sasaferrato said:


> Is the baying mob getting a book deal cancelled not on par with burning books?


Was there a "baying mob"? Or did the publishers just think publishing a author who made edgy, racist comments and didn't have the foresight to realise that calling someone a peado on Twitter was a bit of a liability?


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## Combustible (Mar 16, 2021)

Sasaferrato said:


> Is the baying mob getting a book deal cancelled not on par with burning books?



There was me thinking that the baying mob were the ones sending racist abuse, and threats of rape and murder to a female journalist, yet for some reason that doesn't seem to faze you.


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## ska invita (Mar 16, 2021)

Im dead curious how much it has cost her.


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## ska invita (Mar 16, 2021)

The book has found another publisher by the way


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## not-bono-ever (Mar 16, 2021)

He’s a lot  off things and his spoor is pretty easy to find


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## littlebabyjesus (Mar 16, 2021)

Pretty vile stuff in there, but it's also worrying that it's apparently not acceptable to call Mohammad a paedophile. A woman was convicted of blasphemy in Austria in 2011 for doing that, and her appeal to the European court failed. The reasoning was that the conviction 'served the legitimate aim of preserving religious peace'. Special pleading for religion.

Calling Muhammad paedophile ‘not protected by free speech’


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## Sasaferrato (Mar 16, 2021)

marty21 said:


> No , the publisher decided to cancel the contract,  the book wasn't banned, it wasn't actually a book yet. It will be published by another publisher.  Interesting that your take on this was the canceled book deal.



No time for Burchill, she is a tedious troll.


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## killer b (Mar 16, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Pretty vile stuff in there, but it's also worrying that it's apparently not acceptable to call Mohammad a paedophile. A woman was convicted of blasphemy in Austria in 2011 for doing that, and her appeal to the European court failed. The reasoning was that the conviction 'served the legitimate aim of preserving religious peace'. Special pleading for religion.
> 
> Calling Muhammad paedophile ‘not protected by free speech’


another advantage to brexit there then: we're now free to call Mohammed a paedophile.


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## Pickman's model (Mar 16, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Pretty vile stuff in there, but it's also worrying that it's apparently not acceptable to call Mohammad a paedophile. A woman was convicted of blasphemy in Austria in 2011 for doing that, and her appeal to the European court failed. The reasoning was that the conviction 'served the legitimate aim of preserving religious peace'. Special pleading for religion.
> 
> Calling Muhammad paedophile ‘not protected by free speech’


There is a difference between the eu's european court and the council of europe's european court of human rights.


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## NoXion (Mar 16, 2021)

Isn't the ECHR separate from the EU?

"preserving religious peace" my arse!


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## Pickman's model (Mar 16, 2021)

killer b said:


> another advantage to brexit there then: we're now free to call Mohammed a paedophile.


Littlebabyjesus was wrong to mention the european court. The UK remains within the jurisdiction of the european court of human rights to which the austrian case actually went


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## danny la rouge (Mar 16, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Pretty vile stuff in there, but it's also worrying that it's apparently not acceptable to call Mohammad a paedophile. A woman was convicted of blasphemy in Austria in 2011 for doing that, and her appeal to the European court failed. The reasoning was that the conviction 'served the legitimate aim of preserving religious peace'. Special pleading for religion.
> 
> Calling Muhammad paedophile ‘not protected by free speech’


Aisha was 6 or 7 when they married and the marriage was consummated when she was 9 or 10, and he was 53.  I'm not sure what the word for that is other than paedophilia: she was prepubescent by any standard.


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## bimble (Mar 16, 2021)

good. I don't understand who it is who wants to read her pointless shite and why she still gets paid. She's like a guardian-ish version of whats her name, that one off the apprentice. Her 'i love the jews' phase was especially painful.


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## danny la rouge (Mar 16, 2021)

bimble said:


> good. I don't understand who it is who wants to read her pointless shite and why she still gets paid. She's like a guardian-ish version of whats her name, that one off the apprentice.


Alan Sugar.


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## Santino (Mar 16, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> Alan Sugar.


That's Sir Sugar to you


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## 8ball (Mar 16, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Pretty vile stuff in there, but it's also worrying that it's apparently not acceptable to call Mohammad a paedophile. A woman was convicted of blasphemy in Austria in 2011 for doing that, and her appeal to the European court failed. The reasoning was that the conviction 'served the legitimate aim of preserving religious peace'. Special pleading for religion.
> 
> Calling Muhammad paedophile ‘not protected by free speech’



Careful, now.


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## danny la rouge (Mar 16, 2021)

Santino said:


> That's Sir Sugar to you


Lorde, I believe.


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## Pickman's model (Mar 16, 2021)

bimble said:


> good. I don't understand who it is who wants to read her pointless shite and why she still gets paid. She's like a guardian-ish version of whats her name, that one off the apprentice. Her 'i love the jews' phase was especially painful.


If I thought she might libel me I would read her site assiduously.


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## Santino (Mar 16, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> Lorde, I believe.


Sir Lorde? I don't think so.


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## littlebabyjesus (Mar 16, 2021)

killer b said:


> another advantage to brexit there then: we're now free to call Mohammed a paedophile.


I know you're being facetious, but it's not quite that way around. The European court didn't prosecute. It just didn't rule a prosecution illegal. We have our own problems with the interpretation of laws concerning religious hate speech, which can include some (imo) dodgy rulings.


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## danny la rouge (Mar 16, 2021)

Santino said:


> Sir Lorde? I don't think so.


Lorde Lorde Lorde Sir Sugar, I think.


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## Pickman's model (Mar 16, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> Lorde Lorde Lorde Sir Sugar, I think.


of shite hart lane


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## Pickman's model (Mar 16, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I know you're being facetious, but it's not quite that way around. The European court didn't prosecute. It just didn't rule a prosecution illegal. We have our own problems with the interpretation of laws concerning religious hate speech, which can include some (imo) dodgy rulings.


The European court didn't consider it at all


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## Sasaferrato (Mar 16, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Pretty vile stuff in there, but it's also worrying that it's apparently not acceptable to call Mohammad a paedophile. A woman was convicted of blasphemy in Austria in 2011 for doing that, and her appeal to the European court failed. The reasoning was that the conviction 'served the legitimate aim of preserving religious peace'. Special pleading for religion.
> 
> Calling Muhammad paedophile ‘not protected by free speech’



He was though, by today's standards.


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## chilango (Mar 16, 2021)

Sasaferrato said:


> Is the baying mob getting a  book deal cancelled  book deal picked up by a different publisher and keeping her column in a national newspaper not on par with burning books?



Corrected for accuracy.


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## Pickman's model (Mar 16, 2021)

Sasaferrato said:


> He was though, by today's standards.


or maybe not. Criticism of Muhammad no one knows.


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## Riklet (Mar 16, 2021)

She is such a prize bellend.

Sounds like The Snarka has had a rough time, or at lea

Id guess a fair old sum was paid out. Sadly this means Burchill will have to write more not less drivel.


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## chilango (Mar 16, 2021)

Richard II married a 6 year old.

Stephen I married a 14 year old.

John I married a 13 year old.

Henry III also married a 13 year old.

The same family has repeatedly married 15 year olds and continues to plagued by allegations to this day.

Perhaps the flagshaggers should focus on the Royal family?


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## littlebabyjesus (Mar 16, 2021)

chilango said:


> Richard II married a 6 year old.
> 
> Stephen I married a 14 year old.
> 
> ...


There is a difference. Their actions aren't used to justify child marriage today. Muhammad's actions are. This stuff is disputed within Islam, but it's still very much a live issue among those that seek to make law guided by the Quran. 



> Some Muslims who follow the conservative interpretation of the Quran argue that Islam permits child marriages upon reaching maturity, which conservative’s scholars define as puberty.52 This year, the Council of Islamic Ideology (CII) the body responsible for giving legal advice on Islam to the Pakistani government, passed a ruling that “Pakistani laws prohibiting marriage of underage children are un-Islamic, and that according to Islam, there is no minimum age of marriage".53 In Yemen, the parliament passed legislation raising the minimum age of marriage to 17.54 But conservative parliamentarians argued the bill violated Sharia, or Islamic law, which does not stipulate a minimum age of marriage and the bill failed to become law.55 Many scholars have addressed this issue, Dr. Salih bin Fawzan who is an Islamic scholar and a member of the highest religious committees in Saudi Arabia issued a fatwa asserting, “there is no minimum age for marriage, and that girls can be married “even if 56 they are in the cradle.” Many have questioned this fatwa arguing that by consummating his marriage with Aisha when she was nine instead of when she was six, the prophet Muhammad (SAW) effectively sets a limit.5



https://scholarship.shu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1779&context=student_scholarship


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## chilango (Mar 16, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> There is a difference. Their actions aren't used to justify child marriage today. Muhammad's actions are. This stuff is disputed within Islam, but it's still very much a live issue among those that seek to make law guided by the Quran.
> 
> 
> 
> https://scholarship.shu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1779&context=student_scholarship



I'm not being entirely serious.


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## Kevbad the Bad (Mar 16, 2021)

chilango said:


> Richard II married a 6 year old.
> 
> Stephen I married a 14 year old.
> 
> ...


Maybe, just maybe, both Islam and Monarchy are absurd ideas and those people who are the figureheads of them both are or were ordinary human beings, with all too many failings and too much power.


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## Riklet (Mar 16, 2021)

Seriously, what is this Mohamed was a paedo shit anyway. Obviously by the standards of our time he probs was, seeing we dont live in the desert in 650AD. Does that mean every muslim (or person of muslim background, rather) in the world should be harrassed online about it?

I mean Birchill is obviously a knob but im still slightly shocked by the extent of her shitty unpleasant behaviour.


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## ska invita (Mar 16, 2021)

Riklet said:


> I mean Birchill is obviously a knob but im still slightly shocked by the extent of her shitty unpleasant behaviour.


her shitty behaviour doesnt come cheap! i really hope there were a lot of zeros involved in the payoff


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## Kevbad the Bad (Mar 16, 2021)

Riklet said:


> Seriously, what is this Mohamed was a paedo shit anyway. Obviously by the standards of our time he probs was, seeing we dont live in the desert in 650AD. Does that mean every muslim (or person of muslim background, rather) in the world should be harrassed online about it?
> 
> I mean Birchill is obviously a knob but im still slightly shocked by the extent of her shitty unpleasant behaviour.


The trouble is that many Muslims, not all, maintain that Mohammed was as near to perfect as a human can be, and is to be emulated. Most would also maintain that Mo was in contact with Allāh, via angels obvs, who dictated the Koran, which is therefore the word of God, true for all time etc etc. This bollocks way of thinking is behind the likes of Isis. That doesn't mean that we should insult Muslims in the way that Burchill does. She gets paid to be outrageous and rude and should deffo not be emulated. Neither should Mo.


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## Riklet (Mar 16, 2021)

Enough to purchase a swanky Revolutionary Headquarters in North London for our Novara Comrades let's hope.


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## Pickman's model (Mar 16, 2021)

Riklet said:


> Enough to purchase a swanky Revolutionary Headquarters in North London for our Novara Comrades let's hope.


perhaps

novara house
298 regents park road
london
n3


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## splonkydoo (Mar 16, 2021)

What's the ballpark figure on the payout for a settlement like this?


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## Pickman's model (Mar 16, 2021)

splonkydoo said:


> What's the ballpark figure on the payout for a settlement like this?


fuckloads


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## Edie (Mar 16, 2021)

What does ‘getting cancelled’ mean? I always thought it was a vague term that kinda meant ignored. But it’s an actual thing? Does it mean banned from Twitter? What is ‘cancel culture’?


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## chilango (Mar 16, 2021)

Edie said:


> What does ‘getting cancelled’ mean? I always thought it was a vague term that kinda meant ignored. But it’s an actual thing? Does it mean banned from Twitter? What is ‘cancel culture’?



It's a made up "moral panic" from the same playbook as "PC gone mad".

In this case it means that Julie Burchill (her getting a book published and keeping her newspaper gig etc.) is losing her right to free speech because she got caught out being a racist and misogynist.


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## tim (Mar 16, 2021)

Santino said:


> That's Sir Sugar to you


Lord Shit of Sucrose these days.


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## ddraig (Mar 16, 2021)

Edie said:


> What does ‘getting cancelled’ mean? I always thought it was a vague term that kinda meant ignored. But it’s an actual thing? Does it mean banned from Twitter? What is ‘cancel culture’?


It means getting deleted from the electoral role after daring to go against brave woke warriors of Wokingham


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## tim (Mar 16, 2021)

Edie said:


> What does ‘getting cancelled’ mean? I always thought it was a vague term that kinda meant ignored. But it’s an actual thing? Does it mean banned from Twitter? What is ‘cancel culture’?



A phrase invented for Toby Young to monetise.


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## Riklet (Mar 16, 2021)

Christmas was cancelled by the woke warriors etc


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## chilango (Mar 16, 2021)

These days, if you say you're English etc...


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## Knotted (Mar 16, 2021)

Nasty harassment case, but I wish the undemocratic libel laws hadn't been called upon.


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## tim (Mar 16, 2021)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> Maybe, just maybe, both Islam and Monarchy are absurd ideas and those people who are the figureheads of them both are or were ordinary human beings, with all too many failings and too much power.


And how old was the Blessed Virgin Mary when she got knocked up, without her consent by the Holy Ghost?


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## Raheem (Mar 16, 2021)

Edie said:


> What does ‘getting cancelled’ mean? I always thought it was a vague term that kinda meant ignored. But it’s an actual thing? Does it mean banned from Twitter? What is ‘cancel culture’?


Afaict, it can mean:

Not being as popular as you once were because people think you're a nob. (Morrissey)
Being roughly as popular as you always were, but people think you're a nob. (JK Rowling)
Resigning because people think you're a nob. (Piers Morgan)
Declaring bankruptcy because people think you're a nob and you're worried that might include judges. (Tommy Robinson)
Being far more famous than you deserve to be because people think you're a nob and can't stop saying so. (Laurence Fox)
This is a non-exhaustive list, but hopefully you can see the theme that's emerging.


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## SheilaNaGig (Mar 16, 2021)

Riklet said:


> Christmas was cancelled by the woke warriors etc




Not this, or this is only a small part of it.


It’s also a huge thing in YouTube world.

People with huge followings, and consequently huge income, being shunned by their audiences because they’ve been found to be racist, sexist etc, people unsubscribing, not watching their videos so that their income drops off a cliff, their reputation is in shreds and they can’t  find a way back to public life, so they’re completely shut out.

Kinda like what happened to to Michael Barrymore


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## Orang Utan (Mar 16, 2021)

Edie said:


> What does ‘getting cancelled’ mean? I always thought it was a vague term that kinda meant ignored. But it’s an actual thing? Does it mean banned from Twitter? What is ‘cancel culture’?


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## quiet guy (Mar 16, 2021)

splonkydoo said:


> What's the ballpark figure on the payout for a settlement like this?





Pickman's model said:


> fuckloads



Would that be a metric, imperial or american measurement?


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## Pickman's model (Mar 16, 2021)

quiet guy said:


> Would that be a metric, imperial or american measurement?


the fuckload is the monetary equivalent of the parsec, a great big number


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## Edie (Mar 16, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


>



That’s Phoebe from Friends!


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## bellaozzydog (Mar 16, 2021)

Sasaferrato said:


> Is the baying mob getting a book deal cancelled not on par with burning books?


REALLY


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## Pickman's model (Mar 16, 2021)

Sasaferrato said:


> Is the baying mob getting a book deal cancelled not on par with burning books?


no. anyway you forget we burned books in this country after hitler was burned.


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## Orang Utan (Mar 16, 2021)

Edie said:


> That’s Phoebe from Friends!


Aye!


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## JimW (Mar 16, 2021)

NoXion said:


> "preserving religious peace" my arse!


Turn the other cheek?


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## PaulOK (Mar 16, 2021)

marty21 said:


> Julie Burchill agrees to pay Ash Sarkar 'substantial damages' in libel case
> 
> 
> Columnist apologises to journalist, acknowledging social media posts included ‘racist and misogynist’ comments
> ...



How so? Who on the Left gives her stick? I think she is pretty solid politically and I am surprised anyone on the Left would have a go at her. All the Novara crew are good. I enjoy their writings and media appearances. Like Owen Jones, they are an important Left voice.


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## Orang Utan (Mar 16, 2021)

PaulOK said:


> How so? Who on the Left gives her stick? I think she is pretty solid politically and I am surprised anyone on the Left would have a go at her. All the Novara crew are good. I enjoy their writings and media appearances. *Like Owen Jones, they are an important Left voice*.


🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣


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## marty21 (Mar 16, 2021)

PaulOK said:


> How so? Who on the Left gives her stick? I think she is pretty solid politically and I am surprised anyone on the Left would have a go at her. All the Novara crew are good. I enjoy their writings and media appearances. Like Owen Jones, they are an important Left voice.


The 'Left' doesn't speak with one voice tbf, I like her , sometimes see her cycling (badly) on Hackney Marshes.  She gets most of the abuse from ex NME journos & other right-wingers.


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## Kevbad the Bad (Mar 16, 2021)

tim said:


> And how old was the Blessed Virgin Mary when she got knocked up, without her consent by the Holy Ghost?


Fictional characters can be as old or as young as you want them to be.


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## Raheem (Mar 16, 2021)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> Fictional characters can be as old or as young as you want them to be.


Within reason. No-one would ever subscribe to a religion where key figures were claimed to have lived for hundreds of years, would they?


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## Pickman's model (Mar 16, 2021)

Raheem said:


> Within reason. No-one would ever subscribe to a religion where key figures were claimed to have lived for hundreds of years, would they?


many religions have at their centres characters whose existence is without end.


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## littlebabyjesus (Mar 16, 2021)

Raheem said:


> Within reason. No-one would ever subscribe to a religion where key figures were claimed to have lived for hundreds of years, would they?





> 21 When Enoch had lived sixty-five years, he became the father of Methuselah.22 Enoch walked with God after the birth of Methuselah three hundred years, and had other sons and daughters.23 Thus all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty-five years.24 Enoch walked with God; then he was no more, because God took him.25 When Methuselah had lived one hundred eighty-seven years, he became the father of Lamech.26 Methuselah lived after the birth of Lamech seven hundred eighty-two years, and had other sons and daughters.27* Thus all the days of Methuselah were nine hundred sixty-nine years; and he died.*
> —Genesis 5:21–27



Tbf it's no more silly than resurrection or talking to angels.


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## Pickman's model (Mar 16, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Methuselah


yeh methuselah is really key to xianity and judaism


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## JimW (Mar 16, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Tbf it's no more silly than resurrection or talking to angels.


Well, air quality was significantly better then and there were far fewer traffic accidents.


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## JimW (Mar 16, 2021)

Plus it probably just felt like nine hundred years with no Internet or even telly.


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## Kevbad the Bad (Mar 16, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Tbf it's no more silly than resurrection or talking to angels.


Talking to angels is no worse than talking to cats. It's when they start talking back that it becomes a cause for concern.


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## Sue (Mar 16, 2021)

JimW said:


> Plus it probably just felt like nine hundred years with no Internet or even telly.


Nine hundred years of what Sundays used to be like.  😢


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## Pickman's model (Mar 16, 2021)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> Talking to angels is no worse than talking to cats. It's when they start talking back that it becomes a cause for concern.


if your cats are ignoring you then you're doing it wrong


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## Pickman's model (Mar 16, 2021)

Sue said:


> Nine hundred years of what Sundays used to be like.  😢


900 years in fucking garden centres.


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## Edie (Mar 16, 2021)

Wow I’ve just read the article in the OP. That Burchill woman is a nasty, racist piece of shit in the Katie Hopkins vein of loudmouths. Why the hell she’s still permitted a newspaper column as a self pronounced Islamist is disgraceful. She needs to stfu.


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## Sue (Mar 16, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> 900 years in fucking garden centres.


My dad hated gardening so at least we were spared that...


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## Kevbad the Bad (Mar 16, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> if your cats are ignoring you then you're doing it wrong


It's when the angels stop ignoring me that I get worried.


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## Pickman's model (Mar 16, 2021)

Edie said:


> Wow I’ve just read the article in the OP. That Burchill woman is a nasty, racist piece of shit in the Katie Hopkins vein of loudmouths. Why the hell she’s still permitted a newspaper column as a self pronounced Islamist is disgraceful. She needs to stfu.


as she's a self-confessed philosemite i doubt she's an islamist


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## Edie (Mar 16, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> as she's a self-confessed philosemite i doubt she's an islamist


She literally said this


> As well as directing her Facebook followers to “wade in on Twitter” against “the Islamists” and “nonces”, she wrote a crude poem about Sarkar that featured a description of “a gender fluid threesome with Marine Le Pen”. She also “liked” posts saying that Sarkar should kill herself and suggesting that she was a victim of female genital mutilation.


Do you know better than her herself?

What’s an philosemite?


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## killer b (Mar 16, 2021)

Edie said:


> Why the hell she’s still permitted a newspaper column


She writes for the Telegraph. They're really into racists over there.


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## PaulOK (Mar 16, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> as she's a self-confessed philosemite i doubt she's an islamist


Wasn't she at Lewisham in 1977 with Tony Parsons? Something they have both been dining out on for 40+ years. For the past 30 years she's essentially been trolling the Left. She's got unstuck this time though.


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## Pickman's model (Mar 16, 2021)

Edie said:


> She literally said this
> Do you know better than her herself?
> 
> What’s an philosemite?


your quote suggests jb against rather than for islamists. the 'As well as directing her Facebook followers to “wade in on Twitter” against “the Islamists”' sits ill with your 'jb's an islamist' claim. don't you think?

and a philosemite is someone who loves jews.


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## Santino (Mar 16, 2021)

Edie said:


> She literally said this
> Do you know better than her herself?
> 
> What’s an philosemite?


An Islamist isn't someone who's prejudiced against Muslims (that would be an Islamophobe), it's someone who advocates for Islamic ideology in one form or another.


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## PaulOK (Mar 16, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> and a philosemite is someone who loves jews.



I can imagine her saccharine, syrupy "love letters" to Jews and Israel must be cringy to both Israelis and Jewish people generally.


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## not-bono-ever (Mar 16, 2021)

Shape shifting in order to stay relevant rarely ends well. Always had that potential nasty streak going on. Meh. Guardian readers loved her stuff in the 90s. I didn’t .


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## tim (Mar 16, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> 900 years in fucking garden centres.


They got kicked out of the gardening centre for pilfering.


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## Edie (Mar 16, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> your quote suggests jb against rather than for islamists. the 'As well as directing her Facebook followers to “wade in on Twitter” against “the Islamists”' sits ill with your 'jb's an islamist' claim. don't you think?
> 
> and a philosemite is someone who loves jews.





Santino said:


> An Islamist isn't someone who's prejudiced against Muslims (that would be an Islamophobe), it's someone who advocates for Islamic ideology in one form or another.


Ohhh. I assumed an Islamist was someone who followed Islamic teachings. Apologies. Shit that post looks dumb on my part.

So she encouraged her followers to defend Islamic teachings? But I thought the woman Ash was Muslim and Birchill had been racist against her?


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## belboid (Mar 16, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> Aisha was 6 or 7 when they married and the marriage was consummated when she was 9 or 10, and he was 53.  I'm not sure what the word for that is other than paedophilia: she was prepubescent by any standard.


Oh dear, why are you repeating this tosh?

some Muslims make the above claim, it is not a fact as you present it. In all likelihood she was the same age as Mary when she married Joseph and gave birth to that Jesus bloke.

the claim is made because Aisha was, supposedly, so mature in every way she was a grown woman by the time she was ten.

obviously she wasn’t prepubescent when she became pregnant, because the two meanings contradict each other.


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## Pickman's model (Mar 16, 2021)

Edie said:


> Ohhh. I assumed an Islamist was someone who followed Islamic teachings. Apologies. Shit that post looks dumb on my part.
> 
> So she encouraged her followers to defend Islamic teachings? But I thought the woman Ash was Muslim and Birchill had been racist against her?


islamism is political islam, it's like hizb ut tahrir and jihadis. people who'd use islam as the basis of the law of a state, to perhaps oversimplify it. not your everyday muslim but someone who wants to overturn things into a hellish theocracy. 

burchill is a nasty piece of work. and she did libel this muslim woman. anyway, Islamism


----------



## marty21 (Mar 16, 2021)

Sue said:


> My dad hates gardening so at least we were spared that...


I don't remember ever going to a garden centre with my dad    mrs21 likes them though


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 16, 2021)

Edie said:


> Ohhh. I assumed an Islamist was someone who followed Islamic teachings. Apologies. Shit that post looks dumb on my part.
> 
> So she encouraged her followers to defend Islamic teachings? But I thought the woman Ash was Muslim and Birchill had been racist against her?


Burchill encouraged her followers to attack Islamists. To be an Islamist means a bit more than that you follow Islamic teachings, it is that you base your politics on Islamic teachings.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 16, 2021)

belboid said:


> Oh dear, why are you repeating this tosh?
> 
> some Muslims make the above claim, it is not a fact as you present it. In all likelihood she was the same age as Mary when she married Joseph and gave birth to that Jesus bloke.
> 
> ...


Muslim tradition holds what I said to be the case. I repeat it because that’s what is said by mainstream Muslim tradition. It has been argued that the ages are exaggerations meant to emphasise her virginity. That doesn’t, however, make the case people think it does.

The age of Mary at the time she was raped by the Holy Spirit is not part of Christian tradition.


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 16, 2021)

Edie said:


> Ohhh. I assumed an Islamist was *someone who followed Islamic teachings*. Apologies. Shit that post looks dumb on my part.
> 
> So she encouraged her followers to defend Islamic teachings? But I thought the woman Ash was Muslim and Birchill had been racist against her?




That’s a Muslim.

Islamists are the ones with the guns and the ideology, the ones who want to impose their own narrow interpretation of Sharia law wherever they go, the ones who lop off heads and throw people off buildings.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 16, 2021)

belboid said:


> the claim is made because Aisha was, supposedly, *so mature in every way she was a grown woman* *by the time she was ten*.


Rather uncomfortable echoes of justifications made by paedophiles, tbh, fixating on the sexual development of very young girls. 

I know there are problems here with our distance from that time, but that doesn't make it sound better. 

One of the defences I've read of this is that 'they were different times, values and norms were different'. But that rather leads to the question 'If times and morality were so different, why should we bother listening to anything said by someone from that time?'


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 16, 2021)

SheilaNaGig said:


> That’s a Muslim.
> 
> Islamists are the ones with the guns and the ideology, the ones who want to impose their own narrow interpretation of Sharia law wherever they go, the ones who lop off heads and throw people off buildings.




It’s the -ist suffix that gives it away.

LIke -itis means inflammation, -ist means someone with bigoted views who want to impose them : racist sexist misogynist Islamist... (NB this is not a rule! There are good -ists too)

Easy to muddle it up with _Islamic_ though. Which is an adjective to describe Muslims.


----------



## Edie (Mar 16, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> Muslim tradition holds what I said to be the case. I repeat it because that’s what is said by mainstream Muslim tradition. It has been argued that the ages are exaggerations meant to emphasise her virginity. That doesn’t, however, make the case people think it does.
> 
> The age of Mary at the time she was raped by the Holy Spirit is not part of Christian tradition.


On a thread about a stupid woman making stupid comments about another persons religion, do you not think that is a crass comment?


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 16, 2021)

Edie said:


> On a thread about a stupid woman making stupid comments about another persons religion, do you not think that is a crass comment?


I was responding to a particular point that was made regarding freedom of speech. I didn’t think anything I said was crass, but maybe I’m wrong. You could explain why.


----------



## Edie (Mar 16, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> I was responding to a particular point that was made regarding freedom of speech. I didn’t think anything I said was crass, but maybe I’m wrong. You could explain why.


I’ve no interest in attempting to defend Christianity on here that would be insane. I’m sure you can work it out.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Mar 16, 2021)

Edie said:


> On a thread about a stupid woman making stupid comments about another persons religion, do you not think that is a crass comment?


I think, fwiw, that on a thread about a stupid woman making stupid comments about another person's stupid religion, it was fair comment. But I would never dare post that, because it might be misconstrued.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 16, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> I was responding to a particular point that was made regarding freedom of speech. I didn’t think anything I said was crass, but maybe I’m wrong. You could explain why.


there is of course a long and unhappy tradition of gods raping women, for examples lara raped by hermes, liriope raped by cephissus, medusa raped by poseidon, nemesis raped by zeus.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 16, 2021)

Edie said:


> I’ve no interest in attempting to defend Christianity on here that would be insane. I’m sure you can work it out.


Oh, that part! Wow, I honestly thought you were referring to the part about Aisha’s age.  

No, I think it’s well established that by Christian tradition, Mary neither consented, nor was even aware at the time, to her imprégnation by the Holy Spirit. She doesn’t know until an Angel tells her.


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 16, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> there is of course a long and unhappy tradition of gods raping women, for examples lara raped by hermes, liriope raped by cephissus, medusa raped by poseidon, nemesis raped by zeus.



And there is also a feminist take on that, which says that they weren’t raped, they took lovers from amongst the gods but that was frowned upon because women can’t be seen to have sexual agency, so it must have been rape.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 16, 2021)

SheilaNaGig said:


> And there is also a feminist take on that, which says that they weren’t raped, they took lovers from amongst the gods but that was frowned upon because women can’t be seen to have sexual agency, so it must have been rape.


i wonder whether mary's case has ever been considered in a similar light.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 16, 2021)

SheilaNaGig said:


> And there is also a feminist take on that, which says that they weren’t raped, they took lovers from amongst the gods but that was frowned upon because women can’t be seen to have sexual agency, so it must have been rape.


Of course these are all just stories, as is the virgin birth, and as probably are large sections of biographical detail about Muhammad. In terms of their relevance to today, how those stories are told matters because of religion. Nobody takes seriously the actions of the gods as described in Homer, but they do of the actions of gods (and their prophets) as described in the Bible and the Quran. 

The actual truth of the matters is impossible to know and kind of irrelevant, which is why Danny is right to refer to the traditions not the history or the facts. How and why the stories are told as they are is relevant, and tells us much about those telling the stories, as you intimate here.


----------



## Raheem (Mar 16, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> i wonder whether mary's case has ever been considered in a similar light.


Now it has, so thanks...


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 16, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Of course these are all just stories, as is the virgin birth, and as probably are large sections of biographical detail about Muhammad. In terms of their relevance to today, how those stories are told matters because of religion. Nobody takes seriously the actions of the gods as described in Homer, but they do of the actions of gods (and their prophets) as described in the Bible and the Quran.
> 
> The actual truth of the matters is impossible to know and kind of irrelevant, which is why Danny is right to refer to the traditions not the history or the facts. How and why the stories are told as they are is relevant, and tells us much about those telling the stories, as you intimate here.


baal and dagon never receive quite the reception they deserve in the bible.


----------



## belboid (Mar 16, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Rather uncomfortable echoes of justifications made by paedophiles, tbh, fixating on the sexual development of very young girls.


that isnt really the justification offered by paedophiles.  Plus the fact that she supposedly got pregnant at that age meant she couldn't have been prepubescent, which is the obvious point.


----------



## belboid (Mar 16, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> Muslim tradition holds what I said to be the case. I repeat it because that’s what is said by mainstream Muslim tradition. It has been argued that the ages are exaggerations meant to emphasise her virginity. That doesn’t, however, make the case people think it does.
> 
> The age of Mary at the time she was raped by the Holy Spirit is not part of Christian tradition.


wow. It takes quite a lot to make the idiot Dawkins look reasonable, but well done you!


----------



## 8ball (Mar 16, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> islamism is political islam, it's like hizb ut tahrir and jihadis. people who'd use islam as the basis of the law of a state, to perhaps oversimplify it. not your everyday muslim but someone who wants to overturn things into a hellish theocracy.



The "political Islam" bit is correct, but by my understanding the "hellish theocracy" bit isn't quite always correct.


----------



## 8ball (Mar 16, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> i wonder whether mary's case has ever been considered in a similar light.



Think the consensus is she married at perhaps 14 or a little older, and was 16 when Jesus was born.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 16, 2021)

belboid said:


> wow. It takes quite a lot to make the idiot Dawkins look reasonable, but well done you!


Feel free to point out what was unreasonable about what I said.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 16, 2021)

8ball said:


> Think the consensus is she married at perhaps 14 or a little older, and was 16 when Jesus was born.


thus making god a nonce as we stand today


----------



## two sheds (Mar 16, 2021)

well only one of them


----------



## 8ball (Mar 16, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> Feel free to point out what was unreasonable about what I said.



Not so much unreasonable, but _Luke 1: 38_ suggests the sentence is in error.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 16, 2021)

belboid said:


> that isnt really the justification offered by paedophiles.  Plus the fact that she supposedly got pregnant at that age meant she couldn't have been prepubescent, which is the obvious point.


Damning with faint praise really, though, isn't it? He waited until she started to bleed, then fucked her straight away. No matter how precocious a 10-year-old girl is, she is far from fully developed and pregnancy will be hugely dangerous for her. Did he know that? Did he care? 

As I said above, the truth of the matter is irrelevant. The stories people choose to tell, and the actions they justify by those stories, are what matter. In this case, shitty actions are justified by this particular story all around the world to this very day.


----------



## 8ball (Mar 16, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> thus making god a nonce as we stand today



Not necessarily.  Though social services might take a dim view of the age difference and power imbalance.


----------



## bimble (Mar 16, 2021)

SheilaNaGig said:


> And there is also a feminist take on that, which says that they weren’t raped, they took lovers from amongst the gods but that was frowned upon because women can’t be seen to have sexual agency, so it must have been rape.


This has blown my tiny mind, in an Of Course! sort of way, thanks for that. Who wouldn’t fancy a swan, after all. Sort of.


----------



## belboid (Mar 16, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> Feel free to point out what was unreasonable about what I said.


well, there is the very obvious contradiction between being prepubescent and being pregnant. There's the statement of dubious tosh as fact (even if it is dubious tosh lots of other people believe) and there is the childish provocateurishness of silly statements like 'she was raped by the Holy Spirit' (within which I could include your contrary willingness to apparently accept how the 'christian tradition' varies but dont allow that for the muslim tradition).

We had all this a few years ago, when it was the EDL & BNP shouting 'Muhammed was a padeo.'  Generally then, people had more sense that to go 'well, they are right about _that._'   No longer, it seems.


----------



## belboid (Mar 16, 2021)

8ball said:


> Think the consensus is she married at perhaps 14 or a little older, and was 16 when Jesus was born.


any modern consensus is just that, and riddled with attempts to make her a more acceptable age (as there is with Aisha). 16 (or 18 as many calculate Aisha's actual age on giving birth to have been) is distinctly later then normal for the period.


----------



## 8ball (Mar 16, 2021)

belboid said:


> any modern consensus is just that, and riddled with attempts to make her a more acceptable age (as there is with Aisha). 16 (or 18 as many calculate Aisha's actual age on giving birth to have been) is distinctly later then normal for the period.



I don't know anything much about Aisha.  Aside from what she had in common with Mary ie. that she probably didn't exist.

I hope what is going on here isn't the old style bigotry with the small difference of employing folk demons rather than literal ones.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 16, 2021)

belboid said:


> well, there is the very obvious contradiction between being prepubescent and being pregnant.


 There’s no consensus in the tradition that the consumption of the marriage was when she became pregnant.  





> There's the statement of dubious tosh as fact (even if it is dubious tosh lots of other people believe)


The “dubious tosh” of her age according to Muslim tradition?  So it’s OK for you to call Muslim tradition “dubious tosh”?  That’s pretty selective isn’t it?



> and there is the childish provocateurishness of silly statements like 'she was raped by the Holy Spirit'


What would you call being made pregnant without your consent or knowledge?



> (within which I could include your contrary willingness to apparently accept how the 'christian tradition' varies but dont allow that for the muslim tradition).


 This is a false assertion. 



> We had all this a few years ago, when it was the EDL & BNP shouting 'Muhammed was a padeo.'  Generally then, people had more sense that to go 'well, they are right about _that._'   No longer, it seems.


That’s just an association fallacy.  You know who else used to do that? Hitler.


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 16, 2021)

bimble said:


> This has blown my tiny mind, in an Of Course! sort of way, thanks for that. Who wouldn’t fancy a swan, after all. Sort of.




I remember that feeling from when I first thought of it. It made re-reading the myths really exciting, and kinda funny too, like I was finally in on a big joke.


----------



## 8ball (Mar 16, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> What would you call being made pregnant without your consent or knowledge?



1:  Luke 1:38
2:  Admittedly, going via an intermediary is an oddly primary school way of dealing with it


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 16, 2021)

8ball said:


> 1:  Luke 1:38
> 2:  Admittedly, going via an intermediary is an oddly primary school way of dealing with it


Fair enough. Although Matthew 1:18 gives a different account.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 16, 2021)

Julie burchill would have her mind blown by this thread


----------



## stethoscope (Mar 16, 2021)

Burchill is one of the original 'controversialists', especially for her shit regular comments about trans people in the Guardian many years ago. Then she seemed to lose popularity and no one took a blind bit of notice of her increasingly 'look at me look at me' articles. However, in the current climate of Spiked, etc. that's found favour again.

I remember seeing what she posted towards Sarkar at the time and it was grim. Whether you like Sarkar or not (I don't mind her personally), she's on the receiving end of some seriously awful and at times obsessive racist and misogynist shit.


----------



## 8ball (Mar 16, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> Fair enough. Although Matthew 1:18 gives a different account.



Well, could be an honest account from a different pov, if we want to discuss the Gospels possibly over-seriously.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 16, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Julie burchill would have her mind blown by this thread


That sounds like a good result all round.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 16, 2021)

8ball said:


> Well, could be an honest account from a different pov, if we want to discuss the Gospels possibly over-seriously.


Matthew and Luke were written long after the events, though.  Acts doesn’t mention the Virgin Birth at all.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 16, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> Matthew and Luke were written long after the events, though.  Acts doesn’t mention the Virgin Birth at all.


What about Thomas, Judas etc?


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 16, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> What about Thomas, Judas etc?


They rolled off the altar, so don’t count.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Mar 16, 2021)

stethoscope said:


> Burchill is one of the original 'controversialists', especially for her shit regular comments about trans people in the Guardian many years ago. Then she seemed to lose popularity and no one took a blind bit of notice of her increasingly 'look at me look at me' articles. However, in the current climate of Spiked, etc. that's found favour again.
> 
> I remember seeing what she posted towards Sarkar at the time and it was grim. Whether you like Sarkar or not (I don't mind her personally), she's on the receiving end of some seriously awful and at times obsessive racist and misogynist shit.


She's really no different than the likes of Rush Limbaugh. A vile, toxic bigot who defends Rod Liddle and his pro-paedo views.


----------



## 8ball (Mar 16, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> Matthew and Luke were written long after the events, though.  Acts doesn’t mention the Virgin Birth at all.



It's pretty uncertain when Acts was written too.
And virgin births are everywhere, from Ra to Anakin Skywalker.


----------



## 8ball (Mar 16, 2021)

Count Cuckula said:


> She's really no different than the likes of Rush Limbaugh. A vile, toxic bigot who defends Rod Liddle and his pro-paedo views.



That's really unfair, I've never heard of Rush Limbaugh defending Rod Liddle.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 16, 2021)

8ball said:


> It's pretty uncertain when Acts was written too.
> And virgin births are everywhere, from Ra to Anakin Skywalker.


Acts is generally thought to be the earliest though.


----------



## 8ball (Mar 16, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> Acts is generally thought to be the earliest though.



'Generally' being the case, and also considered to be in the 6th decade or thereabouts iirc <it's been a long time>.
Different things get mentioned in different places - I wouldn't take any single one of them as gospel <cough!>


----------



## chilango (Mar 16, 2021)

Thanks to you fuckers I've spent the last 20 minutes reading about apocryphal gospels on Wikipedia.

Bet Burchill didn't intend that!


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 16, 2021)

8ball said:


> 'Generally' being the case, and also considered to be in the 6th decade or thereabouts iirc <it's been a long time>.
> Different things get mentioned in different places - I wouldn't take any single one of them as gospel <cough!>


There’s been threads about the historicity of Jesus before, so we could perhaps leave this topic for now.  Although I do find it interesting.

A lot more interesting than anything to do with Burchill, as it happens.


----------



## 8ball (Mar 16, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> There’s been threads about the historicity of Jesus before, so we could perhaps leave this topic for now.  Although I do find it interesting.
> 
> A lot more interesting than anything to do with Burchill, as it happens.



Not sure whether we've had one about the historicity of Mohammed - was reading something interesting about this recently.  Being quite a different character, I'd always assumed his existence status to be more rooted but i may have been wrong there.

Anyway, yeah, Burchill.  Have enjoyed some of her articles in the past, but that half-cocked bigoted attack was a major low.


----------



## belboid (Mar 16, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> There’s no consensus in the tradition that the consumption of the marriage was when she became pregnant.  The “dubious tosh” of her age according to Muslim tradition?  So it’s OK for you to call Muslim tradition “dubious tosh”?  That’s pretty selective isn’t it?
> 
> What would you call being made pregnant without your consent or knowledge?
> 
> ...


Yawn, nothing more than some rather poor sophistry there, Danny. You are wrong on most aspects, as you have accepted for one, but whatever. Your starting point seems to be a matter of historical conjecture (and tradition) rather than actual human beings, a mere intellectual exercise.  On this thread (or indeed, in this time, when it comes to your comment on Mary) it seems grossly inappropriate, unless you think Birchall shouldn't have apologised.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 16, 2021)

8ball said:


> Not sure whether we've had one about the historicity of Mohammed - was reading something interesting about this recently.  Being quite a different character, I'd always assumed his existence status to be more rooted but i may have been wrong there.


Yep. I was surprised when I looked into this a while ago. I had assumed that the evidence for his life was far more direct and secure than it actually is. There is very little that can be said to be well-evidenced history wrt Muhammad.


----------



## Raheem (Mar 16, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> The “dubious tosh” of her age according to Muslim tradition?  So it’s OK for you to call Muslim tradition “dubious tosh”?  That’s pretty selective isn’t it?


I think you may be under a false impression that there is a monolithic "Muslim tradition" wrt Aisha's age.

There are various sources (Hadith) for Muhammad's biography, which are inconsistent and not considered infallible or necessarily even reliable by Muslims. Aisha-as-child-bride comes from one particular lineage of Hadith, not universally considered reliable. Many Muslims might believe it, but others don't and, in principle, it's up to them as individuals (albeit what someone is brought up with will always be a big factor). In reality, it might be something a lot of Muslims never get round to really worrying about or weighing up.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 16, 2021)

8ball said:


> Not sure whether we've had one about the historicity of Mohammed - was reading something interesting about this recently.  Being quite a different character, I'd always assumed his existence status to be more rooted but i may have been wrong there.
> 
> Anyway, yeah, Burchill.  Have enjoyed some of her articles in the past, but that half-cocked bigoted attack was a major low.


One on Muhammad would be interesting. I know much less about his historicity. I don’t think there’s any good reason to believe he didn’t exist, though. (I also believe Jesus existed, or Yeshua Ben Yosef or whatever).


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 16, 2021)

Raheem said:


> I think you may be under a false impression that there is a monolithic "Muslim tradition" wrt Aisha's age.


No, I’m not. And I have said so in this thread.


----------



## 8ball (Mar 16, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> One on Muhammad would be interesting. I know much less about his historicity. I don’t think there’s any good reason to believe he didn’t exist, though. (I also believe Jesus existed, or Yeshua Ben Yosef or whatever).



I think there's a good chance that neither existed (in terms of there being a single person the character was embellished around).


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 16, 2021)

The three impostors, Moses, Jesus, Mohamed


----------



## agricola (Mar 16, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> The three impostors, Moses, Jesus, Mohamed



if only Lucian had been around in their times


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 16, 2021)

belboid said:


> Yawn, nothing more than some rather poor sophistry there, Danny. You are wrong on most aspects, as you have accepted for one, but whatever. Your starting point seems to be a matter of historical conjecture (and tradition) rather than actual human beings, a mere intellectual exercise.  On this thread (or indeed, in this time, when it comes to your comment on Mary) it seems grossly inappropriate, unless you think Birchall shouldn't have apologised.


Yeah, saying “yawn” isn’t an argument.

It’s quite clear Burchill was making a personal and bigoted attack.  What I’m not going to agree is that religions and indeed cultural mores cannot be criticised.  They can and should.


----------



## chilango (Mar 16, 2021)

What about Robin Hood? Was he real?


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 16, 2021)

chilango said:


> What about Robin Hood? Was he real?


No.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 16, 2021)

chilango said:


> What about Robin Hood? Was he real?


Yes, he's in films and everything


----------



## Sue (Mar 16, 2021)

chilango said:


> What about Robin Hood? Was he real?


Robin of Loxley, absolutely.


----------



## 8ball (Mar 16, 2021)

Sue said:


> Robin of Loxley, absolutely.



But didn't you ever think it was odd how he had that funny accent and an uncanny resemblance to Kevin Costner?


----------



## Edie (Mar 16, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> Yeah, saying “yawn” isn’t an argument.
> 
> It’s quite clear Burchill was making a personal and bigoted attack.  What I’m not going to agree is that religions and indeed cultural mores cannot be criticised.  They can and should.


Saying the Holy Spirit raped Mary is not criticising a religion. It’s scoring a cheap point because you think you’re better than other people.


----------



## Sue (Mar 16, 2021)

8ball said:


> But didn't you ever think it was odd how he had that funny accent and an uncanny resemblance to Kevin Costner?


Kevin Costner indeed. More like Errol Flynn.


----------



## Santino (Mar 16, 2021)

There was a good documentary fronted by Tony Robinson, which pointed out that the name Robin Hood was in use as a general nickname for outlaws long before any of the serious candidates for the 'real' Robin were born.


----------



## killer b (Mar 16, 2021)

Well this thread has become an unexpected treat.


----------



## Sue (Mar 16, 2021)

Santino said:


> There was a good documentary fronted by Tony Robinson, which pointed out that the name Robin Hood was in use as a general nickname for outlaws long before any of the serious candidates for the 'real' Robin were born.


My favourite was Captain Swing.









						Captain Swing - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 16, 2021)

Edie said:


> Saying the Holy Spirit raped Mary is not criticising a religion. It’s scoring a cheap point because you think you’re better than other people.


It turns out Luke says Mary gave her prior consent to an Angel, so I was mistaken there.  But I didn’t say it because I think I’m better than anyone. I don’t.  I just think that the Abrahamic religions especially have internalised a huge amount of misogyny. And I think it’s OK for me to say so.  In fact I think it’s important for people to say so.  If an aspect of a creed or philosophy is contrary to what I believe are universal principles of equity, justice and humanity I’ll say so.

What I don’t do, nor would I ever attempt to do, is try to convert any believer to atheism.  People should be afforded the freedom to their faith. I’ve always thought so.


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 16, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> It turns out Luke says Mary gave her prior consent to an Angel, so I was mistaken there.  But I didn’t say it because I think I’m better than anyone. I don’t.  I just think that the Abrahamic religions especially have internalised a huge amount of misogyny. And I think it’s OK for me to say so.  In fact I think it’s important for people to say so.  If an aspect of a creed or philosophy is contrary to what I believe are universal principles of equity, justice and humanity I’ll say so.
> 
> What I don’t do, nor would I ever attempt to do, is try to convert any believer to atheism.  People should be afforded the freedom to their faith. I’ve always thought so.




Framing Mary as a rape victim does nothing to empower women.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 16, 2021)

SheilaNaGig said:


> Framing Mary as a rape victim does nothing to empower women.


So what?

Christianity does little to empower women. That's the point being made, I would have thought.

The whole idea of the 'virgin birth' is deeply misogynistic imo.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 16, 2021)

SheilaNaGig said:


> Framing Mary as a rape victim does nothing to empower women.


I’m sorry, I don’t understand your point.  Mine is that Christianity is misogynistic.


----------



## Raheem (Mar 16, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> It turns out Luke says Mary gave her prior consent to an Angel, so I was mistaken there.  But I didn’t say it because I think I’m better than anyone. I don’t.  I just think that the Abrahamic religions especially have internalised a huge amount of misogyny. And I think it’s OK for me to say so.  In fact I think it’s important for people to say so.


But it's about context, isn't it? A question like "was Muhammad a paedophile" might be suitable for sober discussion with people you know won't punch you, but not really for flinging at a Muslim you don't like on Twitter.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 16, 2021)

Raheem said:


> But it's about context, isn't it? A question like "was Muhammad a paedophile" might be suitable for sober discussion with people you know won't punch you, but not really for flinging at a Muslim you don't like on Twitter.


I agree.


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 16, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> So what?
> 
> Christianity does little to empower women. That's the point being made, I would have thought.




So it adds to the general atmosphere of misogyny.

How about reframing the women in these myth cycles as people with agency and autonomy.

As Danny says, it turns out that Mary didn’t give consent. Yet the received or perceived idea is that she was at the mercy of larger forces..

Jesus had less agency during the crucifixion, pleading before and during to freed from his fate. He's not seen as a victim.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Mar 16, 2021)

Burchill's new found publisher has links to Patriotic Alternative









						Londoner’s Diary: ‘Far-Right link’ of Julie Burchill’s new publisher
					

Welcome back to the Londoner’s Diary. First up, we hear about the alleged far-right connections of Julie Burchill’s new publisher, Stirling Publishing. Later on singer-songwriter Imelda May recalls an ill-fated camping trip with her parents to Paris. Then in SW1A, Ed Balls reveals the boss he...




					www.standard.co.uk


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 16, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> I’m sorry, I don’t understand your point.  Mine is that Christianity is misogynistic.




Yes, it is.
And promulgating that by stating that Mary was raped does nothing to push back on the misogyny. There are plenty of other women in the bible who were fucked around but Mary is seen and held to be chosen, blessdd amongst all women etc. So if even the most revered of women is a victim of rape by God, then what can any other woman hope for.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 16, 2021)

SheilaNaGig said:


> So it adds to the general atmosphere of misogyny.
> 
> Now about reframing the women in these myth cycles as people with agency and autonomy.
> 
> ...


I’m sorry,  I’m not following you.  I agree that rewriting myths to give women agency would be an empowering act. Great. Go for it.  But the myths as they stand reflect the patriarchal societies that laid them down millennia ago.  Which is why they are open to criticism.

I’ve a feeling we actually agree with each other but have somehow got our wires crossed.


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 16, 2021)

SheilaNaGig said:


> Yes, it is.
> And promulgating that by stating that Mary was raped does nothing to push back on the misogyny. There are plenty of other women in the bible who were fucked around but Mary is seen and held to be chosen, blessdd amongst all women etc. So if even the most revered of women is a victim of rape by God, then what can any other woman hope for.



Don’t drag her down. Raise her up as a stong powerful woman, who gave her consent. That allows a chink for other women to stand strong too.


----------



## killer b (Mar 16, 2021)

I'd prefer to reject rather than reframe the myths of Christianity tbh (and Islam etc)


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 16, 2021)

SheilaNaGig said:


> Yes, it is.
> And promulgating that by stating that Mary was raped does nothing to push back on the misogyny.


My mistake was in thinking that what the myth implied. I wasn’t trying to rewrite the myth.


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 16, 2021)

Sue said:


> Kevin Costner indeed. More like Errol Flynn.


Errol, white shirt,  not looking at his best tbh with Fidel Castro


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 16, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> I’m sorry,  I’m not following you.  I agree that rewriting myths to give women agency would be an empowering act. Great. Go for it.  But the myths as they stand reflect the patriarchal societies that laid them down millennia ago.  Which is why they are open to criticism.
> 
> I’ve a feeling we actually agree with each other but have somehow got our wires crossed.




Yes, no doubt.

Mary did give her consent. Right?

But (for whatever reasons, possibly including patriarchal assumptions, habit of thought) you said she was a rape victim.

I’m saying that to assume and then present her as a victim of rape doesn’t help women to feel empowered or to stand up against Xian misogyny.


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 16, 2021)

killer b said:


> I'd prefer to reject rather than reframe the myths of Christianity tbh (and Islam etc)




We - the human mind - need our myth cycles. Without them, we invent new ones and get conspiracy bollocks.


----------



## andysays (Mar 16, 2021)

Edie said:


> Saying the Holy Spirit raped Mary is not criticising a religion. It’s scoring a cheap point because you think you’re better than other people.


See also, saying Mohammed was a paedo.

My Dad, brought up a Catholic but going to a mostly Protestant school, was bullied by kids who joked about how Mary was actually raped by Roman soldiers*. They weren't interested in having a theological discussion about the issues around the virgin birth, they were just being cunts and attacking an individual through what they thought was an important aspect of their religion.

That's what all this "Mohammed was a paedo" stuff is about, whether it's Burchill or the EDL doing it, and anyone who defends it because they don't like Islamism or support some dubious right to free speech and to criticise religion is a bit of a mug, frankly.

* yes, I am aware of the irony of this


----------



## killer b (Mar 16, 2021)

SheilaNaGig said:


> We - the human mind - need our myth cycles. Without them, we invent new ones and get conspiracy bollocks.


I don't know about that. I don't think we've had a long enough crack at it yet.


----------



## andysays (Mar 16, 2021)

Sue said:


> Kevin Costner indeed. More like Errol Flynn.


Nah, you've both got it wrong


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 16, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> My mistake was in thinking that what the myth implied. I wasn’t trying to rewrite the myth.




I know you weren’t.

But I find it interesting that your internal version of the story is that she was raped.  There’s an assumption there,

If we’re trying to un-pick and unravel the patriarchy it will include working on these little stitches in the lining of the entire mantle.


----------



## Sue (Mar 16, 2021)

timebandit 





andysays said:


> Nah, you've both got it wrong



Oh andysays. Next you'll be telling me Maid Marian doesn't look like Olivia de Havilland.


----------



## Kaka Tim (Mar 16, 2021)

Going after Muslims on social media gobbing off about Mohammed being a padeo is like marching down the falls road shouting "fuck the pope". Its got nothing to do with any sort of critique of religion and everything to do with bigoted, sectarian shit stirring. Which is exactly what Burchill was indulging in. And surely encouraging her twitter followers to pile in on Ash Sakar is  pretty close to a criminal harassment ?


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 16, 2021)

SheilaNaGig said:


> Yes, no doubt.
> 
> Mary did give her consent. Right?
> 
> ...


It was my understanding that Mary found out after the fact. That’s why I said what I said.  

I have said several times now that I was mistaken. I don’t intend to keep on repeating that every time someone wants to bring it up again. I’ve accepted the mistake now far more often than i made the mistaken assertion.

(It turns out that only two of the gospels mention the virgin birth and that Matthew talks about discovering she was pregnant after the fact ... but I have to agree that the book of Luke disputes that reading).

I was not trying to paint Mary in any way.  I simply got the story wrong.


----------



## hitmouse (Mar 16, 2021)

chilango said:


> What about Robin Hood? Was he real?


If he wasn't, then who built that airport outside of Nottingham, eh?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 16, 2021)

SheilaNaGig said:


> I know you weren’t.
> 
> But I find it interesting that your internal version of the story is that she was raped.  There’s an assumption there,
> 
> If we’re trying to un-pick and unravel the patriarchy it will include working on these little stitches in the lining of the entire mantle.


I think there might be a danger that you're making an assumption here, though, as well. If she didn't consent to being impregnated, then how should we characterise that? Is it not a pro-patriarchy assumption to say that it isn't rape? 

What do we do with stories we think are deeply imbued with misogynistic assumptions, which I think stories from both the Bible and the Quran are? Do you try to reclaim them, or why not simply reject them?


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 16, 2021)

killer b said:


> I don't know about that. I don't think we've had a long enough crack at it yet.




I think it’s pretty pretty well recognised that we store, process and share knowledge and information most readily in the form of story.

If we don’t have myth cycles (we always have done until very recently ) what will take their place? 

Formal monotheistic religion took over from the kind of immersive cultural religious belief and practice that was extant for tens of thousands of years before that.

Soap operas and other telly stuff that almost every single person watched was a decent stand in for a while. We no longer watch telly in the same way. We don’t have the commonly held story anymore. I think that could be a problem.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Mar 16, 2021)

8ball said:


> That's really unfair, I've never heard of Rush Limbaugh defending Rod Liddle.


Even he drew the line somewhere


----------



## hitmouse (Mar 16, 2021)

Kaka Tim said:


> Going after Muslims on social media gobbing off about Mohammed being a padeo is like marching down the falls road shouting "fuck the pope". Its got nothing to do with any sort of critique of religion and everything to do with bigoted, sectarian shit stirring. Which is exactly what Burchill was indulging in. And surely encouraging her twitter followers to pile in on Ash Sakar is  pretty close to a criminal harassment surely?


Yeah, it does feel odd that the discussion switched so quickly from "Burchill is obviously wrong and a dick for what she said" to "but let's imagine a different set of circumstances in which what Burchill said might be reasonable."


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 16, 2021)

SheilaNaGig said:


> I know you weren’t.
> 
> But I find it interesting that your internal version of the story is that she was raped.  There’s an assumption there,
> 
> If we’re trying to un-pick and unravel the patriarchy it will include working on these little stitches in the lining of the entire mantle.


Oh, I’m with you now! You think it was a Freudian error.  Well, who knows.  I think it stemmed from my belief that the Abrahamic religions give little agency to women, and that in fact the Bible is full of rape, so my low opinion ended up imagining another instance.

But of course I was brought up in the Catholic faith and indeed was a child in the 60s and 70s, so I’d be surprised if I’d shaken off all hidden sexism and homophobia to be perfectly frank.  It’s a work in progress.


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 16, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I think there might be a danger that you're making an assumption here, though, as well. If she didn't consent to being impregnated, then how should we characterise that? Is it not a pro-patriarchy assumption to say that it isn't rape?
> 
> What do we do with stories we think are deeply imbued with misogynistic assumptions, which I think stories from both the Bible and the Quran are? Do you try to reclaim them, or why not simply reject them?




Becasue then you’d have to impose some kind of cartel on how people feel about their gods and experience their religion.


I’m not a Christian apologist. I abhor formal religion, doctrine and dogma in all it’s forms. But I also think that it’s really important that - for those of us for whom these things hold meaning - stories such as this one about Mary giving birth to a god in human form are not sneered at and mocked by those who don’t feel the same way.


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 16, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> Oh, I’m with you now! You think it was a Freudian error.  Well, who knows.  I think it stemmed from my belief that the Abrahamic religions give little agency to women, and that in fact the Bible is full of rape, so my low opinion ended up imagining another instance.
> 
> But of course I was brought up in the Catholic faith and indeed was a child in the 60s and 70s, so I’d be surprised if I’d shaken off all hidden sexism and homophobia to be perfectly frank.  It’s a work in progress.




Freudian error! Well I hadn’t thought of it quite like that, but yeah.


Okay. I need to go and do something else now.
Interested to see where this goes next.


----------



## Sue (Mar 16, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> Oh, I’m with you now! You think it was a Freudian error.  Well, who knows.  I think it stemmed from my belief that the Abrahamic religions give little agency to women, and that in fact the Bible is full of rape, so my low opinion ended up imagining another instance.
> 
> But of course I was brought up in the Catholic faith and indeed was a child in the 60s and 70s, so I’d be surprised if I’d shaken off all hidden sexism and homophobia to be perfectly frank.  It’s a work in progress.


I was certainly taught at my (Catholic) primary school that Mary had no idea she was pregnant (and therefore didn't consent) until the angel came and told her. (It being couched as her being blessed and all that).  And because Joseph was a good man, he married her despite her pregnancy. I can't tell you which gospel that comes from or what the others say but that's certainly the version we were given....


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 16, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I think there might be a danger that you're making an assumption here, though, as well. If she didn't consent to being impregnated, then how should we characterise that? Is it not a pro-patriarchy assumption to say that it isn't rape?
> 
> What do we do with stories we think are deeply imbued with misogynistic assumptions, which I think stories from both the Bible and the Quran are? Do you try to reclaim them, or why not simply reject them?




I don’t disagree with you btw.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Mar 16, 2021)

Myths are fine, if you like that sort of thing, but religious myths get treated by some as historical events, with both symbolic and actual meaning. That's OK for dead religions, the Norse gods, the Cathars, Druids and what have you. With living religions it matters that people treat these stories as 'gospel'. They should be free to do so, but why should we have to judge and react to their belief systems any differently to how we judge or react to climate change deniers, or the followers of David Icke. Sure, be nice to people, mostly, but feel free to take the piss as well.


----------



## nogojones (Mar 16, 2021)

SheilaNaGig said:


> So it adds to the general atmosphere of misogyny.
> 
> How about reframing the women in these myth cycles as people with agency and autonomy.
> 
> ...


The bible is almost certainly written totally by men and from a mans perspective. You'd have to be pretty creative to reconstruct the narrative yet retain the "meaning".


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 16, 2021)

SheilaNaGig said:


> not sneered at and mocked by those who don’t feel the same way.


I didn’t intend to do that.  For example I think insisting on referring to deities as “sky pixies” is childish.  My criticisms of religious philosophies is not that people hold them.  It’s none of my business.  What I do criticise is where religions perpetuate oppressions.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 16, 2021)

Sue said:


> I was certainly taught at my (Catholic) primary school that Mary had no idea she was pregnant (and therefore didn't consent) until the angel came and told her. (It being couched as her being blessed and all that).  And because Joseph was a good man, he married her despite her pregnancy. I can't tell you which gospel that comes from or what the others say but that's certainly the version we were given....


Matthew, it turns out.  Yes, that was what I remembered being taught too. But it’s been correctly pointed out that Luke contradicts this.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 16, 2021)

Anyway, I’m done with this rabbit hole now.  Burchill was being bigoted and made a personal attack. I have no time for her or that behaviour.

All I was responding to was the idea that one shouldn’t ever be allowed to criticise religious figures. It’s not necessarily bigoted or racist to do so.


----------



## petee (Mar 16, 2021)

nogojones said:


> The bible is almost certainly written totally by men and from a mans perspective.



which, i've thought, makes Gen 3:12 ironical.
i can see them both flustering around looking for someone else to point at.


----------



## Edie (Mar 16, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> Anyway, I’m done with this rabbit hole now.  Burchill was being bigoted and made a personal attack. I have no time for her or that behaviour.
> 
> All I was responding to was the idea that one shouldn’t ever be allowed to criticise religious figures. It’s not necessarily bigoted or racist to do so.


What a fucking cop out.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 16, 2021)

Edie said:


> What a fucking cop out.


Tell me why.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Mar 16, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> Anyway, I’m done with this rabbit hole now.  Burchill was being bigoted and made a personal attack. I have no time for her or that behaviour.
> 
> All I was responding to was the idea that one shouldn’t ever be allowed to criticise religious figures. It’s not necessarily bigoted or racist to do so.


It's not religious figures, but idealised, romanticised, mythical representations of people about whom we know next to nothing. You might offend some believers by being critical of Jesus and Mo, and others, but plenty of religious folks offend me on a regular basis without giving it a second thought.


----------



## Knotted (Mar 16, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> Acts is generally thought to be the earliest though.



I thought it was thought to be the same author as Luke. I thought Mark was thought to be the first gospel and Pauls letters the first Christian writings. (With the gnostic gospels Thomas and Judas etc. being much later).


----------



## nogojones (Mar 16, 2021)

petee said:


> which, i've thought, makes Gen 3:12 ironical.
> i can see them both flustering around looking for someone else to point at.


Get the blame in early and don't back down is the message I've taken


----------



## Edie (Mar 16, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> Tell me why.


You are so arrogant you think you can make childish and derogatory remarks about other peoples beliefs, and not even be bothered to defend them other than that you having the ‘right’ to do so. Well fuck you.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 16, 2021)

Edie Here’s a Bible story (I’ve checked the references this time).

In Genesis 19, two angels arrive in Sodom, and Lot puts them up. The men of the city beseige Lot's house and demand that he give them the two guests so they could “know them”. (Shag them). [Genesis 19:4-5]  Lot is horrified so to appease the mob, offers them his two daughters instead, with the added selling point that they are virgins. [19:8]  The mob turn down Lot's offer, and so the angels strike them down with blindness, and then warn Lot to leave the city before it is destroyed.

I think it’s fine for me to say that displays a pretty misogynistic and patriarchal attitude in the Bible, in its first book, and that those attitudes are not OK.

What I wouldn’t do is to use that as an argument to a Christian that they  should stop believing in god.  It’s perfectly possible to accept the Bible as an allegorical work of its time and culture and still believe in god.


----------



## planetgeli (Mar 16, 2021)

So yeah, if anyone actually wants to remind themselves what this is all about, Julie Burchill moving beyond the controversialist into nasty, vicious racist cunt, here's a link which contains a lot of what she said (it's from her solicitors and talks about the judgement and apology)









						Julie Burchill to pay substantial damages & public apology to Ash Sarkar in defamation/harassment case - Rahman Lowe Solicitors
					

Blog Page - News Section




					www.rllaw.co.uk
				




Or carry on talking about giving consent to angels, whatever.


----------



## Edie (Mar 16, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> Edie Here’s a Bible story (I’ve checked the references this time).
> 
> In Genesis 19, two angels arrive in Sodom, and Lot puts them up. The men of the city beseige Lot's house and demand that he give them the two guests so they could “know them”. (Shag them). [Genesis 19:4-5]  Lot is horrified so to appease the mob, offers them his two daughters instead, with the added selling point that they are virgins. [19:8]  The mob turn down Lot's offer, and so the angels strike them down with blindness, and then warn Lot to leave the city before it is destroyed.
> 
> ...


Nope, you’re still not getting it.


----------



## killer b (Mar 16, 2021)

planetgeli said:


> So yeah, if anyone actually wants to remind themselves what this is all about, Julie Burchill moving beyond the controversialist into nasty, vicious racist cunt, here's a link which contains a lot of what she said (it's from her solicitors and talks about the judgement and apology)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


everyone knows Burchill is a shit, and we've already read all this stuff. We could all perform how awful we think she is again, or talk about something more interesting. So we've gone for that instead.


----------



## planetgeli (Mar 16, 2021)

killer b said:


> everyone knows Burchill is a shit, and we've already read all this stuff. We could all perform how awful we think she is again, or talk about something more interesting. So we've gone for that instead.



Nice of you to speak for everybody. Just for a change like.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 16, 2021)

Edie said:


> Nope, you’re still not getting it.


I cussed the Bible. You didn’t like it.  That’s unfortunate, but it wasn’t directed at you, or indeed anyone.  

There is no way of going through life without finding some things other people say offensive.  And it’s dangerous to try and insist it is possible.


----------



## belboid (Mar 16, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> Tell me why.


It’s not a cop out, but only cos it’s bollocks instead.   Invoking this nonsense (a la Burchill and others who decry cancel culture) that someone had said one shouldn’t ever criticise religious figures.  You just made that up.


----------



## two sheds (Mar 16, 2021)

planetgeli said:


> So yeah, if anyone actually wants to remind themselves what this is all about, Julie Burchill moving beyond the controversialist into nasty, vicious racist cunt, here's a link which contains a lot of what she said (it's from her solicitors and talks about the judgement and apology)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This bit is puzzling: “a_lthough it was not my intention, I accept that my statements were defamatory of Ms Sarkar and caused her very substantial distress.”

"was not my intention"? Fucking strange statement. _


----------



## Humberto (Mar 16, 2021)

Attacking the very basis of a religion/s which has endured so long and is so much a part of people's identities seems the wrong way to go about helping ourselves or anyone else. Church leaders like to talk about inter-faith communication and rapprochement. I'd say that ought to cut both ways with atheists too. Burchill's type are the problem. Just as sharp-suited televangelists manipulate and condemn she is retrograde, xenophobic.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 16, 2021)

belboid said:


> It’s not a cop out, but only cos it’s bollocks instead.   Invoking this nonsense (a la Burchill and others who decry cancel culture) that someone had said one shouldn’t ever criticise religious figures.  You just made that up.


You’ve made up several things about me already. You’ve literally said I said things I did not say.

I am not decrying “cancel culture”.  I’m drawing a distinction between on the one hand being bigoted or racist and on the other hand criticising the content or impact of a philosophy.  They are two completely different things.


----------



## belboid (Mar 16, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> You’ve made up several things about me already. You’ve literally said I said things I did not say.
> 
> I am not decrying “cancel culture”.  I’m drawing a distinction between on the one hand being bigoted or racist and on the other hand criticising the content or impact of a philosophy.  They are two completely different things.


But you definitely did make up the fact that you were responding to a supposedly stated sentiment that one shouldn’t ever criticise religious figures.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 16, 2021)

belboid said:


> But you definitely did make up the fact that you were responding to a supposedly stated sentiment that one shouldn’t ever criticise religious figures.


Nope. Look back through the thread.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 16, 2021)

Humberto said:


> Attacking the very basis of a religion/s which has endured so long and is so much a part of people's identities seems the wrong way to go about helping ourselves or anyone else. Church leaders like to talk about inter-faith communication and rapprochement. I'd say that ought to cut both ways with atheists too. Burchill's type are the problem. Just as sharp-suited televangilists manipulate and condemn she is retrograde, xenophobic.


Some church leaders do that. Others don't. Some come together with other religions to attack a perceived common enemy, secularism. 

I have a bit of a different take on this from danny. I think attacking the very basis of a religion is the best way to criticise it. Jesus was the son of god and died for our sins. No he didn't. Muhammad is a prophet. No he isn't. 

And the leaders of organised religions of various stripes can mostly fuck the fuck off. Ultimately they are after power and control.


----------



## belboid (Mar 16, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> Nope. Look back through the thread.


I have read it.  You were being childish and are now being defensive.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 16, 2021)

I mean, I’m regretting responding to it now, because there were other things I’d rather have spent my evening doing, and I’ve offended people I didn’t want to offend. But I was responding directly to a story LBJ posted.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 16, 2021)

belboid said:


> I have read it.  You were being childish and are now being defensive.


See, how is one supposed to respond to false accusations? Then when I do respond, that turns out to be a personality flaw too.

Yes, I’m often childish, I can be patronising, I’m opinionated, I’m sometimes wrong. But “defensive”? What the fuck am I supposed to do with that information?

Let’s leave it at this: Burchill’s a prick, God’s a wanker, I’m offensive, and I’m off to watch Spiral.


----------



## Humberto (Mar 16, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Some church leaders do that. Others don't. Some come together with other religions to attack a perceived common enemy, secularism.
> 
> I have a bit of a different take on this from danny. I think attacking the very basis of a religion is the best way to criticise it. Jesus was the son of god and died for our sins. No he didn't. Muhammad is a prophet. No he isn't.
> 
> And the leaders of organised religions of various stripes can mostly fuck the fuck off. Ultimately they are after power and control.



We could be saying the same things hundreds of years into the future, if we were still around. Religion may well endure as long as humanity does, as will the cuntish end of humanity's spectrum.


----------



## Edie (Mar 16, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> I cussed the Bible. You didn’t like it.  That’s unfortunate, but it wasn’t directed at you, or indeed anyone.
> 
> There is no way of going through life without finding some things other people say offensive.  And it’s dangerous to try and insist it is possible.


Oh get over yourself. I wouldn’t say to my Pakistani neighbour that she worshipped a paedophile, I wouldn’t jeer at a Sikh man for wearing a turban, and I wouldn’t say God raped Mary. You come on to a thread about this very issue, and do the very same thing Birchall did. And your defence is the same: I have a right to be offensive. It’s arrogant. I’m disappointed. I’ll leave it too.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 16, 2021)

Edie said:


> Oh get over yourself. I wouldn’t say to my Pakistani neighbour that she worshipped a paedophile, I wouldn’t jeer at a Sikh man for wearing a turban, and I wouldn’t say God raped Mary. You come on to a thread about this very issue, and do the very same thing Birchall did. And your defence is the same: I have a right to be offensive. It’s arrogant. I’m disappointed. I’ll leave it too.


Danny didn't do anything like the examples you give. He posted on here, aiming the comment at nobody in particular. 

This is exactly the kind of special pleading for religion that I was objecting to at the start when linking to that blasphemy case. Believe what you want, but you don't have a right not to have the things you believe in questioned or spoken about in terms you don't approve of.


----------



## Orang Utan (Mar 16, 2021)

The Reunion - The Covid-19 ward - BBC Sounds
					

Michael Rosen and the medical staff who cared for him during his battle with coronavirus.




					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## hitmouse (Mar 16, 2021)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> Myths are fine, if you like that sort of thing, but religious myths get treated by some as historical events, with both symbolic and actual meaning. That's OK for dead religions, the Norse gods, the Cathars, Druids and what have you. With living religions it matters that people treat these stories as 'gospel'. They should be free to do so, but why should we have to judge and react to their belief systems any differently to how we judge or react to climate change deniers, or the followers of David Icke. Sure, be nice to people, mostly, but feel free to take the piss as well.


But the point I keep getting stuck on is - is there any evidence that Ash Sarkar treats these stories as gospel? Cos I'm not an Ash Sarkar-ologist or anything, but I've not seen any evidence that she does, and so it seems weird that we keep coming back to like "criticisms that might be appropriate to level at a fundamentalist Muslim who defends that passage/myth" in the context of a discussion about someone who, going by the available evidence, is not a fundamentalist Muslim who etc etc. I think it's pretty important to resist that slippage.


littlebabyjesus said:


> Some church leaders do that. Others don't. Some come together with other religions to attack a perceived common enemy, secularism.
> 
> I have a bit of a different take on this from danny. I think attacking the very basis of a religion is the best way to criticise it.


I can't believe I'm going to be this much of a tediously predictable Marxist dick, but that's the question, isn't it, or at least one of them - what is the actual basis of religion?


Spoiler: quote from holy scripture



The struggle against religion is, therefore, indirectly the struggle _against that world_ whose spiritual _aroma_ is religion...
The abolition of religion as the _illusory_ happiness of the people is the demand for their _real_ happiness. To call on them to give up their illusions about their condition is to call on them to _give up a condition that requires illusions_. The criticism of religion is, therefore, _in embryo, the criticism of that vale of tears_ of which religion is the _halo_.


----------



## 8ball (Mar 16, 2021)

Edie said:


> I wouldn’t say to my Pakistani neighbour that she worshipped a paedophile..



I hope not, because worshipping Mohammed is a blasphemy in Islam.


----------



## Edie (Mar 16, 2021)

I’m leaving this thread.


----------



## ManchesterBeth (Mar 16, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> Muslim tradition holds what I said to be the case. I repeat it because that’s what is said by mainstream Muslim tradition. It has been argued that the ages are exaggerations meant to emphasise her virginity. That doesn’t, however, make the case people think it does.
> 
> The age of Mary at the time she was raped by the Holy Spirit is not part of Christian tradition.



Technically no, her age is not part of the christian tradition, but her rape unequivocally is, otherwise its impossible to have a doctrine of immaculate conception.

In that sense, Aisha is far less central to the islamic traditions as people on here would like to claim. She is universally despised and not to be exemplarised according to the shia tradition, and that goes for her father, Abu Bakr.

In that sense the history is important, because if Muhammad is insan al-kamal - then the fact that the islamic tradition is full of contradicting hearsay narritives (hadith) illustrates that the important thing is how that tradition is interpreted in certain historical periods for what ends.


----------



## ManchesterBeth (Mar 16, 2021)

8ball said:


> I hope not, because worshipping Mohammed is a blasphemy in Islam.



Neither is muhammad free from sin.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Mar 16, 2021)

Edie said:


> I’m leaving this thread.



Edie
I think they're trying to make up for worshiping the new and politically improved Jedward. It's unsettled the anarchist vibrations and equilibrium must be preserved, or something.


----------



## kittyP (Mar 16, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> The three impostors, Moses, Jesus, Mohamed



Walk into a bar?


----------



## ska invita (Mar 16, 2021)

Count Cuckula said:


> Burchill's new found publisher has links to Patriotic Alternative
> 
> 
> 
> ...




_*Two days ago on March 14, Burchill posted on her Facebook page about her new publisher: “I’ve found someone who’s JUST LIKE ME - not only can I work with her, but have a lot of fun with her, and we know how much I like THAT.”*_

 classic Burchill  just like her indeed


----------



## ManchesterBeth (Mar 16, 2021)

Islam will crumble when the changes rought about by the high mobility of labour in former areas subject to empires of tribute completely extinguish the old revanchist consciousness. Already islamism has run out of ideas from the paramilitary to the bourgeoisdemocratic.

The mistake here is to view religion as an entirely pre-capitalist relic rather than being subsumed into capital's self-valourisation mechanisms. This is why overemphasising a purported humanism of capitalism is a wrongheaded impulse, which is of course what mainstream secularists end up doing.


----------



## kittyP (Mar 16, 2021)

Sue said:


> I was certainly taught at my (Catholic) primary school that Mary had no idea she was pregnant (and therefore didn't consent) until the angel came and told her. (It being couched as her being blessed and all that).  And because Joseph was a good man, he married her despite her pregnancy. I can't tell you which gospel that comes from or what the others say but that's certainly the version we were given....



Yep same as my catholic schooling as well. 

I think SheilaNaGig is right that myths and story telling are such an important part of being a human and I would hate us to lose them, but I also think that when dealing with something like Christianity, so may people literally take the Bible as gospel (pun kinda intended) and that shapes so much of the world still, including politics and therefore women's rights,  attempting to reframe the narrative is kinda futile and I would rather say "yes these stories are important to a lot of people but they are just that, stories" than argue to the toss about whether Mary was raped or not. 
I dunno if that makes sense or not as I am rambling a bit


----------



## Santino (Mar 16, 2021)

dialectician said:


> Technically no, her age is not part of the christian tradition, but her rape unequivocally is, otherwise its impossible to have a doctrine of immaculate conception.
> 
> In that sense, Aisha is far less central to the islamic traditions as people on here would like to claim. She is universally despised and not to be exemplarised according to the shia tradition, and that goes for her father, Abu Bakr.
> 
> In that sense the history is important, because if Muhammad is insan al-kamal - then the fact that the islamic tradition is full of contradicting hearsay narritives (hadith) illustrates that the important thing is how that tradition is interpreted in certain historical periods for what ends.


The Immaculate Conception was the conception of Mary by her parents, which somehow happens without sin. Thus Mary is without sin and can be a vessel for Christ, who is also his own dad.


----------



## Santino (Mar 16, 2021)

And little of this is in the Bible, because the Bible was not the sum total of Christianity, it was just an anthology.


----------



## killer b (Mar 16, 2021)

kittyP said:


> Yep same as my catholic schooling as well.
> 
> I think SheilaNaGig is right that myths and story telling are such an important part of being a human and I would hate us to lose them, but I also think that when dealing with something like Christianity, so may people literally take the Bible as gospel (pun kinda intended) and that shapes so much of the world still, including politics and therefore women's rights,  attempting to reframe the narrative is kinda futile and I would rather say "yes these stories are important to a lot of people but they are just that, stories" than argue to the toss about whether Mary was raped or not.
> I dunno if that makes sense or not as I am rambling a bit


Yeah, I think it's fine and good to reframe and reclaim myths and stories and the like, but when those myths and stories have been used for millennia - and are still used today - to justify and enforce an unjust world, then I'm not really into it.


----------



## ManchesterBeth (Mar 16, 2021)

Santino said:


> The Immaculate Conception was the conception of Mary by her parents, which somehow happens without sin. Thus Mary is without sin and can be a vessel for Christ, who is also his own dad.



I know what it is. You cannot say mary is free from sin without God having raped her, because technically mary is impregnated with and by god.

In islam, Mary is not sinless, and does not give birth to God incarnate, though somehow she is able to give virgin birth. I'm merely pointing out that Aisha is not central to islamic tradition as is made out to be. The edifice does not crumble without her, although for sunnis most of their purported hadith transmissions are rendered null and void. Of course, the hadith transmissions which are extant were compiled some 200-250 years after Muhammad's death, and by the 13th century became the orthodoxy. But hadith are not divine speech and can be subject to numerous errors, (although can be divinely inspired) they are wholly profane. The qu'ran is divine speech though and inerrant.


----------



## ManchesterBeth (Mar 16, 2021)

the qu'ran is not part of earthly time whereas the hadith is. This is why it's futile for instance to claim a gay-friendly islam.


----------



## ska invita (Mar 16, 2021)

Santino said:


> The Immaculate Conception was the conception of Mary by her parents, which somehow happens without sin. Thus Mary is without sin and can be a vessel for Christ, who is also his own dad.




The bit about Mary's immaculate conception is blatantly backwards writing.

Starts of with
Behold Jesus Is the Son of God!! And he has walked on earth here in Jerusalem, he looked like a human but he was really divine!

Then later smart arse at the back: Son of God? Who's his mum then?

Errr.......a poor woman called Mary (will this do?)

Then smart arse at the back: So God had sex with her?

Errr....no....er....shit we better make her a virgin too...ummm....a ghost did it!! (they're never going to believe this)

etc


----------



## Santino (Mar 16, 2021)

The Holy Spirit causes Mary to become pregnant, which is a violation but it's not rape. There's no need for anyone to keep throwing that word around in this.


----------



## 8ball (Mar 16, 2021)

Santino said:


> The Holy Spirit causes Mary to become pregnant, which is a violation...



Well except for the consent element mentioned in Luke.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Mar 16, 2021)

Santino said:


> The Holy Spirit causes Mary to become pregnant, which is a violation but it's not rape. There's no need for anyone to keep throwing that word around in this.



The Spanish verb _violar_ (to violate) means _to rape. _


----------



## nogojones (Mar 16, 2021)

Rutita1 said:


> Edie
> I think they're trying to make up for worshiping the new and politically improved Jedward. It's unsettled the anarchist vibrations and equilibrium must be preserved, or something.


----------



## ManchesterBeth (Mar 16, 2021)

Santino said:


> The Holy Spirit causes Mary to become pregnant, which is a violation but it's not rape. There's no need for anyone to keep throwing that word around in this.



I'm fine with using the term violation. I'm just saying that the trinitarian understanding of jesus as the son of God whilst also being indivisible from God is negated without immaculate conception..

Which is precisely why early critics of Islam in Syria such as John of Damascus claimed that Islam is an Arian heresy

Have a look at:









						John of Damascus - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				




and









						Arianism - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## Raheem (Mar 16, 2021)

kittyP said:


> Walk into a bar?


Muhammad says "If you don't tell God I was in here, I won't tell him about the Ten Commandments."


----------



## Santino (Mar 16, 2021)

dialectician said:


> I'm fine with using the term violation. I'm just saying that the trinitarian understanding of jesus as the son of God whilst also being indivisible from God is negated without immaculate conception..
> 
> Which is precisely why early critics of Islam in Syria such as John of Damascus claimed that Islam is an Arian heresy
> 
> ...


I don't know what you're trying to convince me of now. I'm not a Christian apologist, I just enjoy telling people on the internet that they're wrong.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 16, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> See, how is one supposed to respond to false accusations? Then when I do respond, that turns out to be a personality flaw too.
> 
> Yes, I’m often childish, I can be patronising, I’m opinionated, I’m sometimes wrong. But “defensive”? What the fuck am I supposed to do with that information?
> 
> Let’s leave it at this: Burchill’s a prick, God’s a wanker, I’m offensive, and I’m off to watch Spiral.


But you're the only one of us who can bend dogs to his will with no more than some mysterious gestures


----------



## 8ball (Mar 16, 2021)

Rutita1 said:


> The Spanish verb _violar_ (to violate) means _to rape. _



The term ‘rape’ has only relatively recently become almost exclusively concerned with sexual violation, the original meaning being “to seize and take away by force”, as in the original meaning of “rape and pillage” (although with armies and war... depressingly works either way).

Violare might perhaps be a similar case of a term becoming specialised over time.


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 16, 2021)

ska invita said:


> The bit about Mary's immaculate conception is blatantly backwards writing.
> 
> Starts of with
> Behold Jesus Is the Son of God!! And he has walked on earth here in Jerusalem, he looked like a human but he was really divine!
> ...


All this religious talk reminds me of what was almost a moment of Ephiny on my behalf. I was walking home from a session one Sunday night and  I passed a shop window. Glancing at it (as you do)  I realised I looked slightly worse for wear and thought I'd better smarten myself up before quietly announcing my arrival home to the expectant missus.
As I was having a quick preen I realised there was a bloke sat in the doorway of the shop. He looked harmless enough but had obviously had one or two too many. He asked for a fag and as I went over to him he said if I gave him a fag he'd sing me a song. I give him a cig and a light and he sang :

" He's five foot nine; He is divine,
   Says He comes from Palestine,
   Has anybody seen J. C ?

  He's Five foot nine; He's divine;
 Changes water into wine,
  Has anybody seen J. C.?

 Well, He is fab and he is cool,
 He will walk across your swimming pool,
 Has anybody seen J. C.?"

I was so impressed I wrote the words down. The missus wasn't.


----------



## tim (Mar 16, 2021)

SheilaNaGig said:


> It’s the -ist suffix that gives it away.
> 
> LIke -itis means inflammation, -ist means someone with bigoted views who want to impose them : racist sexist misogynist Islamist... (NB this is not a rule! There are good -ists too)
> 
> Easy to muddle it up with _Islamic_ though. Which is an adjective to describe Muslims.



Cyclist being a good example.


----------



## Humberto (Mar 16, 2021)

I've seen him/my senses told me I did.


----------



## Orang Utan (Mar 16, 2021)

Humberto said:


> I've seen him/my senses told me I did.


What was he wearing?


----------



## Humberto (Mar 16, 2021)

Red robe with dark patches


----------



## nogojones (Mar 16, 2021)

Humberto said:


> Red robe with dark patches


Did you catch the footwear? John the Bap daps or Crocs?


----------



## Humberto (Mar 16, 2021)

Didn't notice sorry.


----------



## Humberto (Mar 17, 2021)

He had long wavy very dark hair, Medditeranean complexion, slight build, pleasant looking, composed and kind, felt comfortable and safe, looked interested. Had a lively intelligent glint to his eye. Whole thing was about ten seconds it seemed.


----------



## Humberto (Mar 17, 2021)

fuck spelling btw


----------



## Humberto (Mar 17, 2021)

Also these:









						Michael (archangel) - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				








__





						Gwen Teirbron - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## Orang Utan (Mar 17, 2021)

Humberto said:


> He had long wavy very dark hair, Medditeranean complexion, slight build, pleasant looking, composed and kind, felt comfortable and safe, looked interested. Had a lively intelligent glint to his eye. Whole thing was about ten seconds it seemed.


What sort of trousers did he have?


----------



## Humberto (Mar 17, 2021)

Didn't


----------



## krtek a houby (Mar 17, 2021)

Kaka Tim said:


> Going after Muslims on social media gobbing off about Mohammed being a padeo is like marching down the falls road shouting "fuck the pope". Its got nothing to do with any sort of critique of religion and everything to do with bigoted, sectarian shit stirring. Which is exactly what Burchill was indulging in. And surely encouraging her twitter followers to pile in on Ash Sakar is  pretty close to a criminal harassment ?



Burchill is an awful shit and not adverse to anti Irish sentiment

Over a long career as a columnist, Burchill has proven herself incapable of referencing Ireland and/or the Irish without also referring to Eamon De Valera, German ambassadors and messages of condolence. In 2002, outraged at the suggestion that English people should cheer on Ireland at the World Cup in Japan, she labelled the tricolour the ‘Hitler-licking, altar-boy molesting, abortion-banning Irish tricolour.’

More here “You can’t trust the Irish, they’re all liars, liars, and don’t forget it.” | Hotpress


----------



## belboid (Mar 17, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Danny didn't do anything like the examples you give. He posted on here, aiming the comment at nobody in particular.
> 
> This is exactly the kind of special pleading for religion that I was objecting to at the start when linking to that blasphemy case. Believe what you want, but you don't have a right not to have the things you believe in questioned or spoken about in terms you don't approve of.


naah, I just think that - whether put in those crude four words or in fifty after a quibble and a caveat - it isn't really worth saying. It's, on a par with 'the Jews killed Jesus' or 'well, Hitler was a Zionist until he went mad and did the holocaust.' It wont win anyone over and is actually more likely to push them away.


----------



## andysays (Mar 17, 2021)

Edie said:


> Oh get over yourself. I wouldn’t say to my Pakistani neighbour that she worshipped a paedophile, I wouldn’t jeer at a Sikh man for wearing a turban, and I wouldn’t say God raped Mary. You come on to a thread about this very issue, and do the very same thing Birchall did. And your defence is the same: I have a right to be offensive. It’s arrogant. I’m disappointed. I’ll leave it too.


IMO, danny hasn't done those things, or anything equivalent on this thread.

He's attempted to have a serious and thoughtful discussion about issues beyond the immediate one of what Burchill did and why she was wrong to do so, and without being insulting to those taking part in the discussion.

I don't want to have that particular discussion ATM, but it's reasonable for those that do to use this thread as a place to do so.


----------



## nogojones (Mar 17, 2021)

Humberto said:


> Also these:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Out of interest... where and how did you see them? 

Did St Michael have a sword as traditionally depicted?


----------



## Serge Forward (Mar 17, 2021)

Edie said:


> Oh get over yourself. I wouldn’t say to my Pakistani neighbour that she worshipped a paedophile, I wouldn’t jeer at a Sikh man for wearing a turban, and I wouldn’t say God raped Mary. You come on to a thread about this very issue, and do the very same thing Birchall did. And your defence is the same: I have a right to be offensive. It’s arrogant. I’m disappointed. I’ll leave it too.


He didn't do any of those things. And knowing DLR, nor would he.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 17, 2021)

belboid said:


> “Well, hitler was a Zionist until he went mad and did the Holocaust’
> 
> naah, I just think that - whether put in those crude four words or in fifty after a quibble and a caveat - it isn't really worth saying. It's, on a par with 'the Jews killed Jesus' or 'well, Hitler was a Zionist until he went mad and did the holocaust.' It wont win anyone over and is actually more likely to push them away.


It still isn't that even because your examples are aimed at identifiable groups of people. This was dissing the 'holy spirit' as characterised in a fictional story. So this is very precisely special pleading for religion. Telling a non-believer 'don't blaspheme'.


----------



## Santino (Mar 17, 2021)

Serge Forward said:


> He didn't do any of those things. And knowing DLR, nor would he.


I like and admire Danny, but it was very clear that he said something deliberately provocative to make his point.


----------



## mauvais (Mar 17, 2021)

marty21 said:


> The 'Left' doesn't speak with one voice tbf, I like her , sometimes see her cycling (badly) on Hackney Marshes.  She gets most of the abuse from ex NME journos & other right-wingers.


She only learnt to ride a bike last year, I saw something about it after someone (some commentator I think) gave her grief for that too.


----------



## Clair De Lune (Mar 17, 2021)

Santino said:


> I like and admire Danny, but it was very clear that he said something deliberately provocative to make his point.


On urban too


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 17, 2021)

Santino said:


> I like and admire Danny, but it was very clear that he said something deliberately provocative to make his point.


You say that like it's a bad thing


----------



## Clair De Lune (Mar 17, 2021)

I think it's entirely possible to think on the one hand that Burchil acted like a bullying cunt, while on the other also being a massive atheist who can talk about religions and their writings being damaging and ridiculous. There is a difference.


----------



## Humberto (Mar 17, 2021)

nogojones said:


> Out of interest... where and how did you see them?
> 
> Did St Michael have a sword as traditionally depicted?



The 'Jesus' one was in my home, I was sitting in a chair and he was just there in front of me for a bit. The other two I mentioned were in dreams. One told me about a problem I had, shook their hand and asked their name. Anyway.


----------



## andysays (Mar 17, 2021)

Santino said:


> I like and admire Danny, but it was very clear that he said something deliberately provocative to make his point.


If this thread is about anything, it's about the difference between being deliberately provocative to make a point, and being deliberately and cuntishly offensive to attack a individual or group.

danny la rouge has certainly done the former, which is OK; Burchill has done the latter, which is not OK.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 17, 2021)

Humberto said:


> The 'Jesus' one was in my home, I was sitting in a chair and he was just there in front of me for a bit. The other two I mentioned were in dreams. One told me about a problem I had, shook their hand and asked their name. Anyway.


One of my former flatmate's colleagues was tripping once and found god hidden away in a breadbin


----------



## killer b (Mar 17, 2021)

Danny's point was obviously a crude provocation, but I don't think it's anything like equivalent to Burchill's racist attacks on Sarkar.

Kenan Malik makes the point that _what's often called an offence to a community is actually a debate within a community_, and I think that's something that has some relevance here. While we may choose to be atheists in the UK, the christian church still exercises a huge amount of political and social control and influence over the communities we live in. The christian church is in our schools, in our legislative chambers, on our national broadcaster. In Northern Ireland, women are unable to freely access abortions because of the enduring influence of the church. 

Criticisms of and provocations against christianity by people living in the UK - and anywhere the church still exercises political and social control - are not lobbing bricks at an oppressed minority, they are attacks against a powerful institution. There would be no real need to illustrate the deep misogyny apparent in christian myths if those myths weren't taught to our children as real things, if those myths weren't used to deny women medical care, if those myths weren't used to call gay relationships 'sinful', etc etc. It's the political power that is being attacked, not anyone's deeply held faith.


----------



## ElizabethofYork (Mar 17, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> One of my former flatmate's colleagues was tripping once and found god hidden away in a breadbin



Fair enough.  His son is the bread of life, after all.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Mar 17, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> One of my former flatmate's colleagues was tripping once and found god hidden away in a breadbin


He's everywhere, man.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 17, 2021)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> He's everywhere, man.


But not it seems equally dispersed


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 17, 2021)

SheilaNaGig said:


> And there is also a feminist take on that, which says that they weren’t raped, they took lovers from amongst the gods but that was frowned upon because women can’t be seen to have sexual agency, so it must have been rape.


Hmmm. Not sure about this. A lot of the resulting mythology around the many rapes suggests quite strongly that this couldn't/shouldn't have been the case. When Leda was shagged by Zeus's swan for example, she was married. This theory therefore makes her adulterous. Madusa was punished by Athena for being raped by Poseidon; perhaps a stronger feminist angle there than her having chosen to seduce him, etc, etc.


----------



## bimble (Mar 17, 2021)

killer b said:


> Danny's point was obviously a crude provocation, but I don't think it's anything like equivalent to Burchill's racist attacks on Sarkar.
> 
> Kenan Malik makes the point that _what's often called an offence to a community is actually a debate within a community_, and I think that's something that has some relevance here. While we may choose to be atheists in the UK, the christian church still exercises a huge amount of political and social control and influence over the communities we live in. The christian church is in our schools, in our legislative chambers, on our national broadcaster. In Northern Ireland, women are unable to freely access abortions because of the enduring influence of the church.
> 
> Criticisms of and provocations against christianity by people living in the UK - and anywhere the church still exercises political and social control - are not lobbing bricks at an oppressed minority, they are attacks against a powerful institution. There would be no real need to illustrate the deep misogyny apparent in christian myths if those myths weren't taught to our children as real things, if those myths weren't used to deny women medical care, if those myths weren't used to call gay relationships 'sinful', etc etc. It's the political power that is being attacked, not anyone's deeply held faith.


Agree with all of that but at the same time doesn't it leave you in a place where you can criticise 'your own' religion as much as you like (or the one dominant where you happen to live) but the irrational & oppressive ideas of The Other, the exotic or oppressed or just mostly elsewhere, must be treated with respect, or passed over in silence, which idea i think has its own issues.


----------



## killer b (Mar 17, 2021)

bimble said:


> Agree with all of that but at the same time doesn't it leave you in a place where you can criticise 'your own' religion as much as you like (or the one dominant where you happen to live) but the irrational & oppressive ideas of The Other, the exotic or oppressed or just mostly elsewhere, must be treated with respect, or passed over in silence, which idea i think has its own issues.


Oh, I don't think the irrational and oppressive ideas of religions dominant elsewhere must be treated with respect at all - but that's not what Burchill was doing. She wasn't attacking Islam, she was attacking a person.


----------



## Knotted (Mar 17, 2021)

andysays said:


> If this thread is about anything, it's about the difference between being deliberately provocative to make a point, and being deliberately and cuntishly offensive to attack a individual or group.
> 
> danny la rouge has certainly done the former, which is OK; Burchill has done the latter, which is not OK.



I think that's underplaying what Burchill has done. It was an obsessive campaign against an individual and really weird sexual one at that.


----------



## ska invita (Mar 17, 2021)

bimble said:


> Agree with all of that but at the same time doesn't it leave you in a place where you can criticise 'your own' religion as much as you like (or the one dominant where you happen to live) but the irrational & oppressive ideas of The Other, the exotic or oppressed or just mostly elsewhere, must be treated with respect, or passed over in silence, which idea i think has its own issues.


Yes there are power imbalances here , and thats why a degree of sensitivity in regards the feelings of a minority and oppressed muslim population is required. But ultimately it shouldnt stop anyone continuing to try and dismantle orthodox religions. Rule 1: try not shouting Mo Was a Paedo at anyone


----------



## bimble (Mar 17, 2021)

killer b said:


> Oh, I don't think the irrational and oppressive ideas of religions dominant elsewhere must be treated with respect at all - but that's not what Burchill was doing. She wasn't attacking Islam, she was attacking a person.


Yep of course, no excuses or rationalisations at all for what she did.


----------



## planetgeli (Mar 17, 2021)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> He's everywhere, man.



But mostly on bread.

Good to see we're still discussing fucking swans.


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 17, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Hmmm. Not sure about this. A lot of the resulting mythology around the many rapes suggests quite strongly that this couldn't/shouldn't have been the case. When Leda was shagged by Zeus's swan for example, she was married. This theory therefore makes her adulterous. Madusa was punished by Athena for being raped by Poseidon; perhaps a stronger feminist angle there than her having chosen to seduce him, etc, etc.




Google for “feminist Madusa myth”

Google for “feminist Leda and the Swan”


Or just google for “feminist Greek myth” or any other myth system you can think of.

Or  “feminist retelling of myth” or “feminist revisionist mythology” or invent your own search term

I thought of it all by myself as a baby feminist, and it was exciting for me, but I’m by no means the only person to have thought of it. It’s been part of feminist discourse for some time now.

Angela Carter made a living doing the same with fairy stories.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 17, 2021)

SheilaNaGig said:


> Google for “feminist Madusa myth”
> 
> Google for “feminist Leda and the Swan”
> 
> ...


Oh I don't doubt for a moment that such theories exist. Just pointing out that they're flawed.


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 17, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Oh I don't doubt that such theories exist. Just pointing out that they're flawed.





Okay then!

Thanks for letting us know.


----------



## bimble (Mar 17, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Hmmm. Not sure about this. A lot of the resulting mythology around the many rapes suggests quite strongly that this couldn't/shouldn't have been the case. When Leda was shagged by Zeus's swan for example, she was married. This theory therefore makes her adulterous. Madusa was punished by Athena for being raped by Poseidon; perhaps a stronger feminist angle there than her having chosen to seduce him, etc, etc.


This is one helluva hot take you got there, its better to be raped than to be an adultress ok.


----------



## ska invita (Mar 17, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Oh I don't doubt for a moment that such theories exist. Just pointing out that they're flawed.


I dont think theyre theories as much as "feminist literary interventions" for want of a better word IYSWIM
These events didnt happen, the original texts are what they are, but by retelling and reframing it it brings up interesting issues


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Mar 17, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Yes there are power imbalances here , and thats why a degree of sensitivity in regards the feelings of a minority and oppressed muslim population is required. But ultimately it shouldnt stop anyone continuing to try and dismantle orthodox religions. Rule 1: try not shouting Mo Was a Paedo at anyone


Islam is not a minority religion everywhere in the world. In some parts it is definitely the majority, or only, religion. When it is, it can be very oppressive for non-Muslims and indeed for those Muslims who are deemed apostates or heretics. It shouldn't be left off the hook just because Islam is a minority religion here in Britain. At the same time I am not advocating senselessly attacking Muslim individuals or communities. 
Anyway, and I could be wrong here, I don't think that Muslim communities are particularly oppressed here because of their religion but because of their skin colour or national origins. If I am wrong, please enlighten me how someone adhering to Islam is more oppressed than an atheist like myself.


----------



## bimble (Mar 17, 2021)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> please enlighten me how someone adhering to Islam is more oppressed than an atheist like myself.


srsly ? maybe go out and about wearing a burqua and see if people treat you just the same.


----------



## Santino (Mar 17, 2021)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> If I am wrong, please enlighten me how someone adhering to Islam is more oppressed than an atheist like myself.


Ever been searched at an airport?


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Mar 17, 2021)

bimble said:


> srsly ? maybe go out and about wearing a burqua and see if people treat you just the same.


Fair point. I did say I might be wrong. I hadn't thought that through from a female perspective. Though not all Muslim women wear burquas of course, or indeed feel the need to cover their hair.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 17, 2021)

We live in a world in which people are prosecuted (persecuted) and even killed for things called 'blasphemy' and 'apostasy'. In such a world, it is not punching down to attack the basic tenets of the religions in whose name these actions are taken. If you were brought up in that religion, you of course have more knowledge and a more direct emotional involvement, but you don't just abandon the victims of this shit because their oppressors are a different group from your oppressors. That's just basic solidarity.

In the context of this thread, it is of course unfortunate that, in the hands of hateful, stupid people like Burchill, such attacks are made in racist, bullying ways. Idiots like Burchill are just as damaging in their way as the structures they attack because all attacks end up getting lumped in with the attacks of the idiots, and people are afraid to make any attacks at all on any of it.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 17, 2021)

Edie was personally offended by what I said. I do regret that because I like Edie and I could have made the point without upsetting her. I’ve apologised to her because I caused the upset.

That is a matter of interpersonal relations. It stands apart from any other discussion.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Mar 17, 2021)

Santino said:


> Ever been searched at an airport?


Yes, and in the street, and at gunpoint. Not a Muslim, though.


----------



## ska invita (Mar 17, 2021)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> Islam is not a minority religion everywhere in the world. In some parts it is definitely the majority, or only, religion. When it is, it can be very oppressive for non-Muslims and indeed for those Muslims who are deemed apostates or heretics. It shouldn't be left off the hook just because Islam is a minority religion here in Britain. At the same time I am not advocating senselessly attacking Muslim individuals or communities.
> Anyway, and I could be wrong here, I don't think that Muslim communities are particularly oppressed here because of their religion but because of their skin colour or national origins. If I am wrong, please enlighten me how someone adhering to Islam is more oppressed than an atheist like myself.


muslims are a minority in the UK and experience discrimination in a variety of ways here, potentially including by military intervention of ancestral homelands depending on heritage. yes skin colour is a key defining factor, but skin colour as a factor intersects with many other variables - someone with the same skin colour and ethnic heritage may play cricket and vote tory and laugh along with racist comments they occasionally experience and not experience the hostility of a practicing muslim who has a beard and wears robes to mosque, for example.

Of course Islam shouldnt be left off the hook, thats what i was saying. I was making the point that a bit of sensitivity is needed so its not misconstrued as part of all the other oppressive attacks muslims might experience here in blighty.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 17, 2021)

ska invita said:


> I dont think theyre theories as much as "feminist literary interventions" for want of a better word IYSWIM
> These events didnt happen, the original texts are what they are, but by retelling and reframing it it brings up interesting issues


It does bring up interesting issues but you have to conflate mulitple contexts to get these "interventions" to make any kind of sense in most cases that I can think of immediately. I'll google the stuff that SnG suggested later and see how other myths fit (or don't) within them.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Mar 17, 2021)

ska invita said:


> muslims are a minority in the UK and experience discrimination in a variety of ways here, potentially including by military intervention of ancestral homelands depending on heritage. yes skin colour is a key defining factor, but skin colour as a factor intersects with many other variables - *someone with the same skin colour and ethnic heritage may play cricket and vote tory and laugh along with racist comments they occasionally experience and not experience the hostility of a practicing muslim who has a beard and wears robes to mosque, for example.*
> 
> Of course Islam shouldnt be left off the hook, thats what i was saying. I was making the point that a bit of sensitivity is needed so its not misconstrued as part of all the other oppressive attacks muslims might experience here in blighty.


Reminded me of reading about this:



> Rafiq's claim against Yorkshire alleges he was given a racist nickname by his team-mates and that other racist comments were directed at players from an ethnic minority background, including the term "P***", with the phrase "go back where you came from" also used.
> 
> It alleges that Yorkshire failed to respect ethnic beliefs of Pakistani players and players of Pakistani descent, "including the non-provision of Halal food facilities and attempts to enforce the drinking culture of the club on them".





> It is alleged that in one incident players and officials laughed in response to alcohol being thrown on a Muslim child at a match.











						Azeem Rafiq: Former Yorkshire bowler files legal claim against club over alleged racism
					

Azeem Rafiq has filed a legal claim against Yorkshire County Cricket Club under the Equality Act, following his allegations of institutional racism at the club.




					www.skysports.com


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Mar 17, 2021)

ska invita said:


> muslims are a minority in the UK and experience discrimination in a variety of ways here, potentially including by military intervention of ancestral homelands depending on heritage. yes skin colour is a key defining factor, but skin colour as a factor intersects with many other variables - someone with the same skin colour and ethnic heritage may play cricket and vote tory and laugh along with racist comments they occasionally experience and not experience the hostility of a practicing muslim who has a beard and wears robes to mosque, for example.
> 
> Of course Islam shouldnt be left off the hook, thats what i was saying. I was making the point that a bit of sensitivity is needed so its not misconstrued as part of all the other oppressive attacks muslims might experience here in blighty.


I'm not trying to be pedantic or difficult here, but the beard and robes are part of cultural heritage, not an intrinsic part of Islam. Others from the same part of the world may dress similarly and get similar negative responses yet adhere to a different or no faith at all.
Yes, halal food might not be always readily provided, but neither is vegetarian or vegan or gluten-free.
I do agree that there has been more specifically anti-Muslim feeling in recent decades, coinciding with British involvement in Iraq in particular and the rise of Isis. But Asian friends of mine from Hindu and Catholic backgrounds have also experienced racism (surprise, surprise) - all down to their skin colour.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Mar 17, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> If he wasn't, then who built that airport outside of Nottingham, eh?



Robin Hood built East Midlands Airport?


----------



## Serge Forward (Mar 17, 2021)

Santino said:


> I like and admire Danny, but it was very clear that he said something deliberately provocative to make his point.


Saying something 'provocative" is one thing  and doing what Edie claims he did is another.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 17, 2021)

There’s a number of things going on here. They’re getting confused in this thread because people do confuse them.

Within Islam, and the cultures espousing it as their religion, there is a lot one can and should criticise.  As someone has already said (KillerB or littlebabyjesus I think), Muslim cultures are not a monolith.  Within those cultures there are oppressions and debates. There are people fighting those battles and there are forces of reaction.  The more literalist and fundamentalist interpretations of any religion are by definition more oppressive, authoritarian, reactionary and limiting.  They tend to suck in reactionary currents from the traditional cultural milieu and use scripture to shore up those oppressions.

My mother has become a Wee Free in later years. This has seriously pushed her social conscience into the reactionary spectrum.  When she brought me up, she was a socialist with what were for the time socially liberal values. Now, she has imbibed and internalised not only the Presbyterian reaction of the Highlands and Islands, but those contacts have opened her up to the views of the American Christian Right.  She now has very different views on women’s role in the home than she had when I was a kid.  This is not a good thing.  This is not just a matter of “oh well, that’s her religion, leave her alone”.  I’m sorry, but while I would not take her God away from her, I do challenge her views.

If we put _Islam_ or _Judaism_ inside a protected fence and say that because _Muslims_ or _Jews_ are discriminated against (which of course they are), then we abandon all debate within those cultures to the forces of reaction. We then may as well enforce blasphemy laws, which here in Scotland have only just been repealed.

Religion is not a special case. Religions are a series of philosophies. Philosophies are not untouchable.  We cannot make them so because it would give offence.  We do not have the right to be unoffended.  If I am offended by equal marriage then that’s just fucking tough. Whatever my religion.


----------



## Santino (Mar 17, 2021)

Serge Forward said:


> Saying something 'provocative" is one thing  and doing what Edie claims he did is another.


Ok, I think he was being needlessly provocative, and using the concept of rape in a way that was intended to offend Christians.


----------



## andysays (Mar 17, 2021)

Knotted said:


> I think that's underplaying what Burchill has done. It was an obsessive campaign against an individual and really weird sexual one at that.


Fair point, wouldn't want to downplay what Burchill did, was more focused on saying why what danny was doing wasn't the same


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 17, 2021)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> Yes, halal food might not be always readily provided, but neither is vegetarian or vegan or gluten-free.


Where you know there are likely to be Muslims eating, providing food they can eat is a basic courtesy, and very easy to do. I don't think that is too much to ask. Any hospital, for instance, will have halal options.

And in the specific case of cricket in Yorkshire, there are entire leagues of players of mostly Pakistani descent. The idea that it could be a surprise to find players who won't eat ham sandwiches is laughable. Offering such things to them is an act of deliberate, racist provocation.

ETA: And to be clear, in the specific case of cricket, this kind of deliberate, racist provocation does happen. Shameful but true.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 17, 2021)

Santino said:


> I like and admire Danny, but it was very clear that he said something deliberately provocative to make his point.


Yes I was.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 17, 2021)

Serge Forward said:


> Saying something 'provocative" is one thing  and doing what (edie) claims he did is another.


Don’t tag her, she said she wanted to leave the thread as it upsets her. That’s fair enough.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 17, 2021)

Santino said:


> Ok, I think he was being needlessly provocative, and using the concept of rape in a way that was intended to offend Christians.


I was pointing out the deep, deep engrained misogyny in many Bible stories and thereby in mainstream Christian morality. I picked one which it turns out I had a poor scriptural grasp of, but the point remains. The misogyny is there, and it has seeped down into even the more liberal interpretations of Christianity today. Indeed even this post Christian society we live in still struggles with those values it inherits from the Abrahamic past, for example women “asking for it” with “provocative” clothing or behaviour.  That comes straight from those sources.


----------



## killer b (Mar 17, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> As someone has already said (@KillerB or @littlebabyjesus I think),


I sometimes feel a bit sorry for KillerB, who in the unlikely event of him ever logging back in here will find a deluge of alerts from people who were hoping to tag me. Then I read his single post here and don't care so much.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 17, 2021)

killer b said:


> I sometimes feel a bit sorry for KillerB, who in the unlikely event of him ever logging back in here will find a deluge of alerts from people who were hoping to tag me. Then I read his single post here and don't care so much.


My phone is determined to capitalise some things I don’t want capitalised. I apologise for dialling the wrong number.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 17, 2021)

belboid said:


> naah, I just think that - whether put in those crude four words or in fifty after a quibble and a caveat - it isn't really worth saying. It's, on a par with 'the Jews killed Jesus' or 'well, Hitler was a Zionist until he went mad and did the holocaust.' It wont win anyone over and is actually more likely to push them away.


I know we fundamentally disagree on these issues - and that doesn’t make you a bad person, just wrong - but try to focus on things I’ve actually said instead of getting wound up about stuff somebody hypothetical might have said sometime in history. I already took the piss out of you for association fallacy, but now you’re stretching it beyond breaking point.


----------



## ElizabethofYork (Mar 17, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> I was pointing out the deep, deep engrained misogyny in many Bible stories and thereby in mainstream Christian morality. I picked one which it turns out I had a poor scriptural grasp of, but the point remains. The misogyny is there, and it has seeped down into even the more liberal interpretations of Christianity today. Indeed even this post Christian society we live in still struggles with those values it inherits from the Abrahamic past, for example women “asking for it” with “provocative” clothing or behaviour.  That comes straight from those sources.



The scripture isn't very clear (what a shock!)   And Mary couldn't really have given her consent - she was probably about 13 years old and had been taught to obey men.  A male angel told her she was going to have a baby.  We are told that she was frightened.  Then she submitted.   Did she have a choice?


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 17, 2021)

ElizabethofYork said:


> The scripture isn't very clear (what a shock!)   And Mary couldn't really have given her consent - she was probably about 13 years old and had been taught to obey men.  A male angel told her she was going to have a baby.  We are told that she was frightened.  Then she submitted.   Did she have a choice?


These are all good points.  And whatever Luke says, what I was told in Catechism did differ, but I wish I’d picked another example.


----------



## chilango (Mar 17, 2021)

What danny la rouge said, whilst undeniably provocative and no doubt offensive to many, doesn't come in the context of mobs of fascists marching around the streets beating up people who "look like Christians" chanting "Jesus is a rapist!" over and over again.


----------



## 8ball (Mar 17, 2021)

ElizabethofYork said:


> The scripture isn't very clear (what a shock!)   And Mary couldn't really have given her consent - she was probably about 13 years old and had been taught to obey men.  A male angel told her she was going to have a baby.  We are told that she was frightened.  Then she submitted.   Did she have a choice?



I don't think angels are male or female theologically speaking, but agree we would be iffy these days on the quality of that particular consent.
I think if you dig into the Bible a bit, this doesn't even gently abrade the surface of the full extent of the misogyny in there, though.

As an aside, in the book of Zechariah there are a couple of angels that are described as female.


----------



## Santino (Mar 17, 2021)

chilango said:


> What danny la rouge said, whilst undeniably provocative and no doubt offensive to many, doesn't come in the context of mobs of fascists marching around the streets beating up people who "look like Christians" chanting "Jesus is a rapist!" over and over again.


Is the mob also burning a straw man?


----------



## hitmouse (Mar 17, 2021)

killer b said:


> Danny's point was obviously a crude provocation, but I don't think it's anything like equivalent to Burchill's racist attacks on Sarkar.
> 
> Kenan Malik makes the point that _what's often called an offence to a community is actually a debate within a community_, and I think that's something that has some relevance here. While we may choose to be atheists in the UK, the christian church still exercises a huge amount of political and social control and influence over the communities we live in. The christian church is in our schools, in our legislative chambers, on our national broadcaster. In Northern Ireland, women are unable to freely access abortions because of the enduring influence of the church.
> 
> Criticisms of and provocations against christianity by people living in the UK - and anywhere the church still exercises political and social control - are not lobbing bricks at an oppressed minority, they are attacks against a powerful institution.


But that's the thing innit, the Christian Church isn't a singular institution and hasn't been since at least 1054. So while I broadly agree with you there, I think it's very possible to do "provocations against christianity" that do function as lobbing bricks at an oppressed minority, especially in the NI context.



Jeff Robinson said:


> Robin Hood built East Midlands Airport?


Shit, I've now looked this one up and realised I was led astray by Nottingham's habit of sticking Robin Hood on everything. It was actually Doncaster airport that Robin Hood built, apologies for any confusion caused there.


----------



## chilango (Mar 17, 2021)

Santino said:


> Is the mob also burning a straw man?



In Danny's neck of the woods quite possibly.


----------



## 8ball (Mar 17, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Shit, I've now looked this one up and realised I was led astray by Nottingham's habit of sticking Robin Hood on everything.



He lives round the corner from me.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 17, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> But that's the thing innit, the Christian Church isn't a singular institution and hasn't been since at least 1054. So while I broadly agree with you there, I think it's very possible to do "provocations against christianity" that do function as lobbing bricks at an oppressed minority, especially in the NI context.


of course. in the same way that it is possible to do 'provocations against Islam' that perform that function. For example, Julie Burchill. 

But the point here is surely that it is also possible (and I would say _necessary_) to do such provocations in a way that performs a very different function.


----------



## seeformiles (Mar 17, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> One of my former flatmate's colleagues was tripping once and found god hidden away in a breadbin



I came across a friend of mine who was tripping on the beach. He was very indignant because a rock had just told him to get a haircut.


----------



## 8ball (Mar 17, 2021)

seeformiles said:


> I came across a friend of mine who was tripping on the beach. He was very indignant because a rock had just told him to get a haircut.



You sure he said _a_ rock?


----------



## killer b (Mar 17, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> But that's the thing innit, the Christian Church isn't a singular institution and hasn't been since at least 1054. So while I broadly agree with you there, I think it's very possible to do "provocations against christianity" that do function as lobbing bricks at an oppressed minority, especially in the NI context.


This is true, though the NI context you talk about is a conflict between two different strands of non-monolithic christianity. Both strands of which are currently voting to enforce (or at least not to challenge) abortion restrictions in the province.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Mar 17, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Shit, I've now looked this one up and realised I was led astray by Nottingham's habit of sticking Robin Hood on everything. It was actually Doncaster airport that Robin Hood built, apologies for any confusion caused there.


As a devotee I regard this not so much as confusion as a provocation.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 17, 2021)

killer b said:


> This is true, though the NI context you talk about is a conflict between two different strands of non-monolithic christianity. Both strands of which are currently voting to enforce (or at least not to challenge) abortion restrictions in the province.


As Eammon McCann said “When it comes to abortion, Sinn Fein have been impaled on the fence for so long they could be torn neatly in half along the perforations.”


----------



## Knotted (Mar 17, 2021)

I think there's a reasonable sounding idea that it's fine to attack a doctrine but not religious people as a group or individually, in a sort of "play the ball not the players" way (obviously JB did both anyway). I think ignorant attacks on religion are often attempts to characterise the people in a certain way - ie. explaining their beliefs to them (see for example - "Mohammed worship"). The distinction between ideas and people is not always a useful one IMO.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Mar 17, 2021)

8ball said:


> He lives round the corner from me.



In that jacket potato food van right?


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Mar 17, 2021)

I was in a pub once with a friend who asked for a lemonade and a vegetarian pizza. The pizza duly turned up with ham on it. He sent it back and it was returned minus the ham, but the same pizza. Was the publican being racist, anti-Islamic or ignorant? Answers on a postcard please.


----------



## 8ball (Mar 17, 2021)

Jeff Robinson said:


> In that jacket potato food van right?





Tim Pollard - he's Nottingham's "official Robin Hood".  Goes to my local.


----------



## 8ball (Mar 17, 2021)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> I was in a pub once with a friend who asked for a lemonade and a vegetarian pizza. The pizza duly turned up with ham on it. He sent it back and it was returned minus the ham, but the same pizza. Was the publican being racist, anti-Islamic or ignorant? Answers on a postcard please.



Or doing some kind of performative contempt for vegetarians...


----------



## Santino (Mar 17, 2021)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> I was in a pub once with a friend who asked for a lemonade and a vegetarian pizza. The pizza duly turned up with ham on it. He sent it back and it was returned minus the ham, but the same pizza. Was the publican being racist, anti-Islamic or ignorant? Answers on a postcard please.


What are you actually trying to argue?


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 17, 2021)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> I was in a pub once with a friend who asked for a lemonade and a vegetarian pizza. The pizza duly turned up with ham on it. He sent it back and it was returned minus the ham, but the same pizza. Was the publican being racist, anti-Islamic or ignorant? Answers on a postcard please.


Yes


----------



## 8ball (Mar 17, 2021)

Santino said:


> What are you actually trying to argue?



Ah, the direct approach.  I was trying to tease it out by engaging a little..


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 17, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> But that's the thing innit, the Christian Church isn't a singular institution and hasn't been since at least 1054. So while I broadly agree with you there, I think it's very possible to do "provocations against christianity" that do function as lobbing bricks at an oppressed minority, especially in the NI context.
> 
> 
> Shit, I've now looked this one up and realised I was led astray by Nottingham's habit of sticking Robin Hood on everything. It was actually Doncaster airport that Robin Hood built, apologies for any confusion caused there.


Divided long before 1054, long long before.


----------



## hitmouse (Mar 17, 2021)

How was the lemonade, any complaints there?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 17, 2021)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> I was in a pub once with a friend who asked for a lemonade and a vegetarian pizza. The pizza duly turned up with ham on it. He sent it back and it was returned minus the ham, but the same pizza. Was the publican being racist, anti-Islamic or ignorant? Answers on a postcard please.


You were there. We were not. So what do you think? Context and that.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 17, 2021)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> I was in a pub once with a friend who asked for a lemonade and a vegetarian pizza. The pizza duly turned up with ham on it. He sent it back and it was returned minus the ham, but the same pizza. Was the publican being racist, anti-Islamic or ignorant? Answers on a postcard please.


Not enough information, but based on what we know, they are an ignorant tight arse and I wouldn’t eat it or pay.


----------



## belboid (Mar 17, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> I know we fundamentally disagree on these issues - and that doesn’t make you a bad person, just wrong - but try to focus on things I’ve actually said instead of getting wound up about stuff somebody hypothetical might have said sometime in history. I already took the piss out of you for association fallacy, but now you’re stretching it beyond breaking point.


I am focusing on what you said, I’m pointing out the (to me) glaring contradiction between your attitudes to Islam and your attitude towards anti-semitism.  Insulting one group of people (cos we are actually talking about people not some abstract idea) becomes a matter of essential free speech whereas for the other it is completely beyond the pale. Why is that?


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 17, 2021)

8ball said:


> Or doing some kind of performative contempt for vegetarians...


Like that cunt Ramsay.  I wouldn’t eat at any of his places ever.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 17, 2021)

belboid said:


> I am focusing on what you said, I’m pointing out the (to me) glaring contradiction between your attitudes to Islam and your attitude towards anti-semitism.  Insulting one group of people (cos we are actually talking about people not some abstract idea) becomes a matter of essential free speech whereas for the other it is completely beyond the pale. Why is that?


You are wrong about that.


----------



## 8ball (Mar 17, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> Like that cunt Ramsay.  I wouldn’t eat at any of his places ever.



While I still think he's a massive knobhead, I believe his stance on that sort of thing has changed a lot over the intervening years.


----------



## killer b (Mar 17, 2021)

belboid said:


> I am focusing on what you said, I’m pointing out the (to me) glaring contradiction between your attitudes to Islam and your attitude towards anti-semitism.  Insulting one group of people (cos we are actually talking about people not some abstract idea) becomes a matter of essential free speech whereas for the other it is completely beyond the pale. Why is that?


Is it possible for you to have this debate without implying the person you're arguing with is a racist?


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 17, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> Like that cunt Ramsay.  I wouldn’t eat at any of his places ever.


I would. I'd order something and demand ketchup so he'd roar out of his kitchen incandescent with rage


----------



## 8ball (Mar 17, 2021)

I have more time for Ramsay than Oliver.
Though we're talking milliseconds in both cases.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 17, 2021)

8ball said:


> While I still think he's a massive knobhead, I believe his stance on that sort of thing has changed a lot over the intervening years.


Not enough for me to be able to trust what I was eating if he’d made it.


----------



## killer b (Mar 17, 2021)

killer b said:


> Is it possible for you to have this debate without implying the person you're arguing with is a racist?


(I know the answer to this is 'no', which is pretty ironic when only a post ago you were piously intoning that danny's posts 'wont win anyone over and is actually more likely to push them away.')


----------



## 8ball (Mar 17, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> Not enough for me to be able to trust what I was eating if he’d made it.



I think you'd be pretty safe these days - he's pretty astute when it comes to watching in which direction the money is moving.
But your stance is understandable.


----------



## Santino (Mar 17, 2021)

I think it says something sad about our society that Ramsay's public personality is that of a bully, a literal bully, and he gets lauded and rewarded for it.


----------



## Sue (Mar 17, 2021)

killer b said:


> I sometimes feel a bit sorry for KillerB, who in the unlikely event of him ever logging back in here will find a deluge of alerts from people who were hoping to tag me. Then I read his single post here and don't care so much.



It's like marty21 and his near namesake all over again  .


----------



## killer b (Mar 17, 2021)

Sue said:


> It's like marty21 and his near namesake all over again  .


it did occur to me that I had a narrow escape from a similar fate to marty21, now forever tainted by a whiff of wrong 'un.


----------



## ska invita (Mar 17, 2021)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> I'm not trying to be pedantic or difficult here, but the beard and robes are part of cultural heritage, not an intrinsic part of Islam. Others from the same part of the world may dress similarly and get similar negative responses yet adhere to a different or no faith at all.
> Yes, halal food might not be always readily provided, but neither is vegetarian or vegan or gluten-free.
> I do agree that there has been more specifically anti-Muslim feeling in recent decades, coinciding with British involvement in Iraq in particular and the rise of Isis. But Asian friends of mine from Hindu and Catholic backgrounds have also experienced racism (surprise, surprise) - all down to their skin colour.


Beard growing is part of Islamic practices as is clothing, both male and female.








						Are beards obligatory for devout Muslim men?
					

Hizbul-Islam militants in Somalia have ordered men in Mogadishu to grow their beards and trim their moustaches. Is this a Muslim obligation?



					www.bbc.co.uk
				



As with all religions there is a spectrum to how things are observed and considered, Hasidic Jews are an example within the spectrum of Judaism.
In countries where there is little separation of church and state religious practice overlaps and melts into other cultural practices.
Islamaphobia is real in the UK - Atheistphobia isn't. What Ash experienced was Islamaphobia.
I can assure you that a white british man who converted to Islam, changed his name to a Muslim sounding one, wore robes to mosque and grew a beard would suffer new found additional oppressions.


----------



## belboid (Mar 17, 2021)

killer b said:


> Is it possible for you to have this debate without implying the person you're arguing with is a racist?


I am pointing out a contradiction. Is there a contradiction there? Sure looks like it.  In which case the obvious question is, why? Unconscious biases _are_ a thing, it doesn’t make that person evil. Being ‘a racist’ involves a lot more, IMO, than simply having a dubious outlook on one particular question. Without wanting to pun, it isn’t simply black and white.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 17, 2021)

belboid said:


> Is there a contradiction there?


No.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 17, 2021)

You owe me an apology for repeating a baseless lie. But I know I won’t get it.


----------



## killer b (Mar 17, 2021)

belboid said:


> I am pointing out a contradiction. Is there a contradiction there? Sure looks like it.  In which case the obvious question is, why? Unconscious biases _are_ a thing, it doesn’t make that person evil. Being ‘a racist’ involves a lot more, IMO, than simply having a dubious outlook on one particular question. Without wanting to pun, it isn’t simply black and white.


I'll admit I'm not familiar with the posts of Danny's about antisemitism that you're claiming contradict his opinions on this thread. Maybe you could link me up.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 17, 2021)

killer b said:


> I'll admit I'm not familiar with the posts of Danny's about antisemitism that you're claiming contradict his opinions on this thread. Maybe you could link me up.


Yup. The ones where I said nobody can criticise ultra orthodox cultural misogyny.  Or where I said Judaism is beyond reproach.


----------



## andysays (Mar 17, 2021)

killer b said:


> I'll admit I'm not familiar with the posts of Danny's about antisemitism that you're claiming contradict his opinions on this thread. Maybe you could link me up.


I suspect we'll find that these comments, if they actually exist, don't meet the claims belboid is making for them.

This sort of disingenuous mis-representation is pretty standard for them, unfortunately.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 17, 2021)

belboid said:


> I am pointing out a contradiction. Is there a contradiction there? Sure looks like it.  In which case the obvious question is, why? Unconscious biases _are_ a thing, it doesn’t make that person evil. Being ‘a racist’ involves a lot more, IMO, than simply having a dubious outlook on one particular question. Without wanting to pun, it isn’t simply black and white.



Are you not conflating being anti-(name of a religion) with being prejudiced against people who follow that religion?

It may sound like a subtle distinction, but it's a crucial one. To give a very simple example, I am anti-Christianity but I also love my mum, who is a Christian.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 17, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> ETA: And to be clear, in the specific case of cricket, this kind of deliberate, racist provocation does happen. Shameful but true.


You mean professionally? Any examples?


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 17, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Are you not confusing being anti-(name of a religion) with being prejudiced against people who follow that religion?
> 
> It may sound like a subtle distinction, but it's a crucial one. To give a very simple example, I am anti-Christianity but I also love my mum, who is a Christian.


It’s actually worse than that, because he has misread my position on anti Jewish racism as being different to my position on anti Muslim racism.  Which does make me wonder why _he_ sees values applied equally as being different.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 17, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Are you not conflating being anti-(name of a religion) with being prejudiced against people who follow that religion?
> 
> It may sound like a subtle distinction, but it's a crucial one. To give a very simple example, I am anti-Christianity but I also love my mum, who is a Christian.


Hate the sin but love the sinner, I see


----------



## belboid (Mar 17, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> No.


I am shocked you disagree.   But you joined this thread in order to post your support for the idea that Mohammed is a paedo.   And have doubled down on that stance.   I really don’t see the difference between your comments and Ken Livingstones, both are crude and will knowingly cause offense even with a highly debatable basis in ‘fact’.  Why is yours okay but his wasn’t?


----------



## belboid (Mar 17, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> It’s actually worse than that, because he has misread my position on anti Jewish racism as being different to my position on anti Muslim racism.  Which does make me wonder why _he_ sees values applied equally as being different.


Because I don’t think you do so.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 17, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> You mean professionally? Any examples?


At club level, I have now heard this kind of story from three different people - you're one of them - so it seems it must be common. At professional level, I only really know about the racism that existed in the 80s and 90s, specifically at Yorkshire and the hostile environment there towards local Asian players. I don't have more recent examples but the recent reports out of Yorkshire ring true, sadly. They only ended the 'by birth' qualification in 1992. They said then that they were going to clean up on this stuff. I'm not so surprised that they haven't.


----------



## belboid (Mar 17, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Are you not conflating being anti-(name of a religion) with being prejudiced against people who follow that religion?
> 
> It may sound like a subtle distinction, but it's a crucial one. To give a very simple example, I am anti-Christianity but I also love my mum, who is a Christian.


I am still failing to see the important distinction between ‘The Jews killed Jesus’ and ‘Muslims worship a paedophile’ - we both know what those phrases are used for.


----------



## krtek a houby (Mar 17, 2021)

Feckin Burchill.

Just look what she's doing to urban   





(Steps away from the thread)


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 17, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> At club level, I have now heard this kind of story from three different people - you're one of them - so it seems it must be common.


Can you refresh my memory? Most teams, in London at least, have Muslims in them. Provision of halal food options is routine at pretty much every club I've known and it's actually required by most leagues. I'd be very surprised if there weren't more muslims playing cricket in the UK than any other team sport so it's hard to see why they wouldn't be catered for.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 17, 2021)

belboid said:


> I am shocked you disagree.   But you joined this thread in order to post your support for the idea that Mohammed is a paedo.   And have doubled down on that stance.   I really don’t see the difference between your comments and Ken Livingstones, both are crude and will knowingly cause offense even with a highly debatable basis in ‘fact’.  Why is yours okay but his wasn’t?


I posted in response to this story: Calling Muhammad paedophile ‘not protected by free speech’

I don’t think any religion deserves the protection that instance of law provides.

I have lots of problems with Ken Livingstone, but I don’t remember pronouncing that that statement of his was in itself anti semitic.  You are drawing a comparison where there is none.  Ken was opining (stupidly) about the nature of Zionism and Nazism.  I was pointing out that it is in fact a mainstream belief in Islam that the Prophet had sex with a girl of 9 or 10. I disagree with the view that because it was a long time ago we “mustn’t judge”.

I also don’t think it makes things much better to take the line that _if she was old enough to bleed she was old enough the breed._


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 17, 2021)

belboid said:


> Because I don’t think you do so.


You are wrong.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 17, 2021)

belboid said:


> I am still failing to see the important distinction between ‘The Jews killed Jesus’ and ‘Muslims worship a paedophile’ - we both know what those phrases are used for.


Muslims don’t worship a paedophile. And I haven’t said they do.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 17, 2021)

Let’s move this along. I recommend to you all, read Living Judaism by Rabbi Wayne Dosick. I recently did. It’s a fascinating portrait of contemporary Judaism from an American perspective, and goes through the many traditions and strands.  Much of what he describes feature very conservative and often reactionary attitudes.  These are all worthy of criticism.  And I am indeed critical.

I am also critical of Israeli state policy and actions.

What I’m not OK with is hook nosed tropes, blood libels and the more modern left anti Semitism.   Those are quite different things.

And that applies to whatever religion I’m talking about. Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism even.


----------



## hitmouse (Mar 17, 2021)

Dunno if this is helpful or not, but it's been rattling around in my head, so might as well share it and see what people think: as anyone with a basic knowledge of Judaism will be aware, one of the most important Jewish festivals is Pesach, which celebrates the story of the liberation of the Jews from Egypt. Fwiw, it's also one of the more popular festivals with like liberation/progressive/reclaiming tradition Jewish types cos of being about freedom and overthrowing the oppressors and all that. As you'll also probably be aware, the Passover story involves the Ten Plagues, culminating in the slaughter of the firstborn*.

So, looking at the Passover myth as it's told, we can accurately say that one of the most important Jewish festivals, Pesach, celebrates the killing of children. I also think that that statement would be an incredibly unhelpful and counterproductive one to make in like at least 99.9% of possible conversations.

And it might be possible to make an argument that talking about Mohammad's marriage to Aisha should be held to a different standard than talking about the um, bloodthirsty nature of certain aspects of Jewish myth, like if it's used to justify present-day practices more then it makes it more relevant. That might be true, or true in some cases, idk. But that's what I've been thinking about, anyway.



*to be strictly fair to Pesach here, I should acknowledge that it's ambivalent on the plagues themselves cos you're meant to spill a drop of wine and that. But I think it's also fair to say that the festival as a whole is a celebratory one overall, and that there are parts of it that seem to specifically celebrate the vengeance against the Egyptians, Dayenu for instance.


----------



## Serge Forward (Mar 17, 2021)

To be fair, all the Jews in my family, only really bother with purim... hic


----------



## Riklet (Mar 17, 2021)

This is such a stupid argument.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 17, 2021)

Riklet said:


> This is such a stupid argument.


because...


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 17, 2021)

Sorry for the derail, but it seems Burchill’s saviour publisher is a Nazi. Lol.









						Julie Burchill fires new publisher identified as a white nationalist
					

A supporter of the far-right group Patriotic Alternative identifying herself as Tabatha Stirling has been recorded apologising for publishing authors of colour




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## krtek a houby (Mar 17, 2021)

After recent family bereavement am fascinated by aspects of Shintoism like Kami but am also mindful that the religion was embraced as part of Japanese imperialism during the expansion era. At the end of the day, can't think of any belief system that hasn't been twisted and left open to interpretation and vigorous... debate.

Don't think anyone has been malicious here. Not deliberately, at any rate.

Well, apart from Burchill, of course.


----------



## killer b (Mar 17, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> Sorry for the derail, but it seems Burchill’s saviour publisher is a Nazi. Lol.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Burchill has cancelled her publisher? Well now.


----------



## Serge Forward (Mar 17, 2021)

So not completely bad then, only a 99% racist shite.


----------



## marty21 (Mar 17, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> Sorry for the derail, but it seems Burchill’s saviour publisher is a Nazi. Lol.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


And I suspect,  part of the reason for the settlement & apology , in a way this is perfect publicity for her book on Woke stuff. She , no doubt, finally realised she had a weak defence. 

There is a long interview between Ash Sarkar & James O'brien which covers the grounds of the case.  She had some hideous abuse as a result of Burchill encouraging a pile on.

Eta , she sacked the nazi publishers,  so no doubt will get it published elsewhere


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 17, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> Don't think anyone has been malicious here. Not deliberately, at any rate.


I think belboid has been. He’s repeatedly called me out on made up stuff based only on his imagination.



belboid said:


> I am pointing out a contradiction. Is there a contradiction there? Sure looks like it.



Is it wrong that he shags goats on buses and doesn’t wear a mask? It sure looks like it.


----------



## planetgeli (Mar 17, 2021)

marty21 said:


> There is a long interview between Ash Sarkar & James O'brien which covers the grounds of the case.  She had some hideous abuse as a result of Burchill encouraging a pile on.



Yes she did. However, as we know everything about Burchill this is immaterial now and it's best we discuss mythical women giving consent via angels to empower other women. Plus the shagging of swans. Or goats. I can't keep up.


----------



## tim (Mar 17, 2021)

Clair De Lune said:


> I think it's entirely possible to think on the one hand that Burchil acted like a bullying cunt, while on the other also being a massive atheist who can talk about religions and their writings being damaging and ridiculous. There is a difference.


Burchill doesn't claim to be a massive atheist. She found god in the '90s and was on the verge of converting to Judaism but decided that her local synagogue was too pro-Palestinian.


----------



## killer b (Mar 17, 2021)

planetgeli said:


> Yes she did. However, as we know everything about Burchill this is immaterial now and it's best we discuss mythical women giving consent via angels to empower other women. Plus the shagging of swans. Or goats. I can't keep up.


this derail has really upset you hasn't it?


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 17, 2021)

tim said:


> Burchill doesn't claim to be a massive atheist. She found god in the '90s and was on the verge of converting to Judaism but decided that her local synagogue was too pro-Palestinian.


((((god))))


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 17, 2021)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Robin Hood built East Midlands Airport?



East Midlands Airport was never named after Robin Hood. Doncaster airport was, until someone pointed out that Robin Hood was clearly not from Yorkshire because his whole thing was giving money away.


----------



## tim (Mar 17, 2021)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> I was in a pub once with a friend who asked for a lemonade and a vegetarian pizza. The pizza duly turned up with ham on it. He sent it back and it was returned minus the ham, but the same pizza. Was the publican being racist, anti-Islamic or ignorant? Answers on a postcard please.


Were there lemons in the lemonade?


----------



## planetgeli (Mar 17, 2021)

killer b said:


> this derail has really upset you hasn't it?



I think it's upset at least two other people in the discussion a lot more.

Nah, I think it would make a fascinating thread of it's own for those involved. Just not so much here.


----------



## hitmouse (Mar 17, 2021)

tim said:


> Burchill doesn't claim to be a massive atheist. She found god in the '90s and was on the verge of converting to Judaism but decided that her local synagogue was too pro-Palestinian.


Bet there must have been some proper fervent thanks offered up in that synagogue that Saturday.


----------



## marty21 (Mar 17, 2021)

killer b said:


> Burchill has cancelled her publisher? Well now.


I can't keep up !   First she accuses Sarkar of trying to cancel her (Sarkar didn't cancel the original publishing deal) Then she apologies for being racist-y and encouraging a nasty pile on. Then she gets a new publishing deal with a dubious publisher , and cancels them for being a bit Nazi. So now she is touting a woke book to other publishers. What would be a cherry on top would be the publishers suing her for breach of contract.


----------



## hitmouse (Mar 17, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> East Midlands Airport was never named after Robin Hood. Doncaster airport was, until someone pointed out that Robin Hood was clearly not from Yorkshire because his whole thing was giving money away.


Yeah, apologies for any confusion caused there - Doncaster airport is the one that was built by Robin Hood, East Midlands Airport is the one that was born after Brian Clough mated with Zeus in the form of a swan.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Mar 17, 2021)

planetgeli said:


> Yes she did. However, as we know everything about Burchill this is immaterial now and it's *best we discuss mythical women giving consent via angels to empower other women. Plus the shagging of swans. Or goats. I can't keep up.*


I think the annoying thing about the discussion is the fact we seem to be playing along with the 'mythical' impregnation of women  as a way of deifying them as 'immaculate' or 'otherworldly' which reinforces dodgey patriarchal views that women who have sex are somehow unclean/sinful/tainted whether they consented or were raped/coerced. These are stories that comforted men/fathers/husbands/brothers.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 17, 2021)

marty21 said:


> I can't keep up !   First she accuses Sarkar of trying to cancel her (Sarkar didn't cancel the original publishing deal) Then she apologies for being racist-y and encouraging a nasty pile on. Then she gets a new publishing deal with a dubious publisher , and cancels them for being a bit Nazi. So now she is touting a woke book to other publishers. What would be a cherry on top would be the publishers suing her for breach of contract.


This shit sells, though, sadly. Piers Morgan's latest anti-woke drivel is currently at number 6 on Amazon. He will make millions of pounds just from that book.


----------



## Brainaddict (Mar 17, 2021)

What I'm wondering is who the hell are the Burchill fans? Has anyone met one in the wild? Who is keeping her career going by even buying her books? It's baffling.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 17, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> This shit sells, though, sadly. Piers Morgan's latest anti-woke drivel is currently at number 6 on Amazon. He will make millions of pounds just from that book.


no he won't.


----------



## 8ball (Mar 17, 2021)

Rutita1 said:


> I think the annoying thing about the discussion is the fact we seem to be playing along with the 'mythical' impregnation of women  as a way of deifying them as 'immaculate' or 'otherworldly' which reinforces dodgey patriarchal views that women who have sex are somehow unclean/sinful/tainted whether they consented or were raped/coerced. These are stories that comforted men/fathers/husbands/brothers.



Ties in with the celibacy of priests and nuns, verses in the Bible about women being unclean for twice as long after giving birth to a girl as for a boy - the standard drill, all relating back to virgins being 'clean' and probably relating to an older and more deep-rooted cuckoldry anxiety.


----------



## killer b (Mar 17, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> He will make millions of pounds just from that book.


I'm not sure about that tbh. sure he'll do alright out of it, but millions sounds like a stretch


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 17, 2021)

killer b said:


> I'm not sure about that tbh. sure he'll do alright out of it, but millions sounds like a stretch


the number of people who make millions from one book can probably be counted on the fingers of one hand and they're going to be people like dan brown or j.k. rowling. so this oh noes he'll make millions is gross hyperbole. plus it'd take years for any millions to roll in, many years


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 17, 2021)

killer b said:


> I'm not sure about that tbh. sure he'll do alright out of it, but millions sounds like a stretch


If it stays in the top ten for any length of time, he'll get seven-figure sum, particularly as it is selling these numbers as a hardback. This isn't just a wild guess btw.


----------



## killer b (Mar 17, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> If it stays in the top ten for any length of time, he'll get seven-figure sum, particularly as it is selling these numbers as a hardback. This isn't just a wild guess btw.


it's at number 8 now, so it doesn't look like it will be in the top ten for any length of time.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 17, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> If it stays in the top ten for any length of time, he'll get seven-figure sum, particularly as it is selling these numbers as a hardback. This isn't just a wild guess btw.


no it's utter bollocks. a complete lie. to earn a million pounds off a hardback he'd have to sell about 500,000 copies @ £20 a throw - the society of authors report that the standard royalty is 10% of the hardback price and 7.5% of the paperback price. Buying Choices | The Society of Authors.


----------



## Knotted (Mar 17, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> Sorry for the derail, but it seems Burchill’s saviour publisher is a Nazi. Lol.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Not even a philosemitic Nazi at that.


----------



## Raheem (Mar 17, 2021)

tim said:


> Burchill doesn't claim to be a massive atheist. She found god in the '90s and was on the verge of converting to Judaism but decided that her local synagogue was too pro-Palestinian.


"It's Julie shitting Burchill! What can we do to get rid of her?"


----------



## andysays (Mar 17, 2021)

tim said:


> Burchill doesn't claim to be a massive atheist. She found god in the '90s and was on the verge of converting to Judaism but decided that her local synagogue was too pro-Palestinian.


Did she find him at the back of the breadbin as well?


----------



## Knotted (Mar 17, 2021)

tim said:


> Burchill doesn't claim to be a massive atheist. She found god in the '90s and was on the verge of converting to Judaism but decided that her local synagogue was too pro-Palestinian.



I almost feel sorry for her. She's looking for a religion that's both liberal/feminist/pro gay rights and at the same time militant towards the Muslim and/or Catholic enemies. You just don't get that combination.


----------



## tim (Mar 17, 2021)

8ball said:


> I don't know anything much about Aisha.  Aside from what she had in common with Mary ie. that she probably didn't exist.
> 
> I hope what is going on here isn't the old style bigotry with the small difference of employing folk demons rather than literal ones.




Believing that women who did exist, didn't exist seems to be a bigger leap-of-faith than believing that those women in one case was married to and in the other case bore men who were respectively fathered by God and God's best mate.

Aisha's existence is particularly well documented. After the death of Mohammed, she led an army, whilst sitting atop a camel in rebellion against Ali the fourth Caliph Battle of the Camel - New World Encyclopedia. In the early days of Islam, there were a number of powerful assertive women of the type that the Saudis, Iranians and other Gulf regimes are now so keen to lock up and torture.


----------



## bimble (Mar 17, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> Sorry for the derail, but it seems Burchill’s saviour publisher is a Nazi. Lol.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What happens to make a person become that,  a self avowed ethnonationalist? 
You wouldn’t guess anything from her author bio 








						Scottish Book Trust
					

We are a national charity bringing the benefits of reading and writing to everyone in Scotland.




					www.scottishbooktrust.com
				



. It’s uncomfortable to admit but I’m more baffled when it’s women.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 17, 2021)

bimble said:


> It’s uncomfortable to admit but I’m more baffled when it’s women.


That’s interesting. Why?


----------



## bimble (Mar 17, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> That’s interesting. Why?


Don’t know tbh, will think about it.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Mar 17, 2021)

Knotted said:


> I almost feel sorry for her. She's looking for a religion that's both liberal/feminist/pro gay rights



seriously?

some of the stuff i've seen of hers has been a load of homophobic shite


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 17, 2021)

bimble said:


> Don’t know tbh, will think about it.


Didn’t mean to put you on the spot.  Sometimes we don’t know why we think things.


----------



## Santino (Mar 17, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> Didn’t mean to put you on the spot.  Sometimes we don’t know why we think things.


I guess part of it is that fascism is pretty much inherently deeply sexist. White supremacism goes hand in hand with strong views on traditionl male and female roles.


----------



## Knotted (Mar 17, 2021)

Puddy_Tat said:


> seriously?
> 
> some of the stuff i've seen of hers has been a load of homophobic shite



I haven't been paying her much attention for the last 20 years or so, so I'm not sure where she stands on this now, but she had a lesbian phase and is generally pro-sex. I would be surprised if she took a gay sex is sin line, although that mean she has other prejudices about gay men/women.


----------



## 8ball (Mar 17, 2021)

tim said:


> Didn’t mean to put you on the spot.  Sometimes we don’t know why we think things.



I think it’s because we associate the need to assert tribal dominance with men.

And what Santino said.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Mar 17, 2021)

Knotted said:


> I haven't been paying her much attention for the last 20 years or so, so I'm not sure where she stands on this now, but she had a lesbian phase and is generally pro-sex. I would be surprised if she took a gay sex is sin line, although that mean she has other prejudices about gay men/women.



the last thing of hers i read (admittedly some time ago, i gave up on her and then the guardian) was something along the lines of all gay men being in to under-age boys...


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 17, 2021)

Santino said:


> I guess part of it is that fascism is pretty much inherently deeply sexist. White supremacism goes hand in hand with strong views on traditionl male and female roles.


and yet any glance at fascism will find plenty of women supporters


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Mar 17, 2021)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> I was in a pub once with a friend who asked for a lemonade and a vegetarian pizza. The pizza duly turned up with ham on it. He sent it back and it was returned minus the ham, but the same pizza. Was the publican being racist, anti-Islamic or ignorant? Answers on a postcard please.


Sorry to take so long to get back to you all. I've been out for a long walk. But now I will reveal all. The answer was, of course, ignorant. This was back in the 1970's and at that time he probably only came across vegetarians infrequently. He wasn't tight-arsed, however, as when a truly vegetarian pizza was finally produced he didn't charge for it. Which only goes to show something or other important.
(drums fingers on table for a bit)
Ah yes, I remember what it was. It's all too easy to fling accusations around implying motive behind actions. Cricket teams may be very competitive, so much so that they fail to provide halal meat sarnies so as to unsettle their opponents. Or they may be ignorant. Or they may object to the Islamic halal animal killing practices. Or they may be racist or antagonists of a particular religion. Or something else.
I'm not trying to defend anyone's actions here, just objecting to the demands of religion on everybody else. Would you expect a vegan restaurant to produce meat or dairy based nutrition when asked? Would a Muslim chef be expected to produce non-halal pasties for a cricket team from Cornwall who objected to Islamic ritual slaughter?


----------



## tim (Mar 17, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> and yet any glance at fascism will find plenty of women supporters




Indeed!


----------



## bimble (Mar 17, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> and yet any glance at fascism will find plenty of women supporters


Yep. Saw somewhere the other day one in 4 paying members of the British union of fascists in its heyday were women. They did make the sandwiches but they chose to.


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 17, 2021)

bimble said:


> Yep. Saw somewhere the other day one in 4 paying members of the British union of fascists in its heyday were women.


Some were former suffragette supporters


----------



## 8ball (Mar 17, 2021)

tim said:


> Indeed!



You know the history of this pic, I take it.


----------



## tim (Mar 17, 2021)

8ball said:


> You know the history of this pic, I take it.


I made a point of not using the Sun as my source.


----------



## 8ball (Mar 17, 2021)

tim said:


> I made a point of not using the Sun as my source.



Fair enough.  I was thinking more about the timing of when it was taken, and the presence of Edward.  Given the context I think it's less embarassing than the one with Harry in the Nazi get-up.


----------



## Wilf (Mar 17, 2021)

chilango said:


> Richard II married a 6 year old.
> 
> Stephen I married a 14 year old.
> 
> ...


I'm only on page 2 of what will no doubt be a funky thread, but this post is out front at the moment.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 17, 2021)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> Sorry to take so long to get back to you all. I've been out for a long walk. But now I will reveal all. The answer was, of course, ignorant. This was back in the 1970's and at that time he probably only came across vegetarians infrequently. He wasn't tight-arsed, however, as when a truly vegetarian pizza was finally produced he didn't charge for it. Which only goes to show something or other important.
> (drums fingers on table for a bit)
> Ah yes, I remember what it was. It's all too easy to fling accusations around implying motive behind actions. Cricket teams may be very competitive, so much so that they fail to provide halal meat sarnies so as to unsettle their opponents. Or they may be ignorant. Or they may object to the Islamic halal animal killing practices. Or they may be racist or antagonists of a particular religion. Or something else.
> I'm not trying to defend anyone's actions here, just objecting to the demands of religion on everybody else. Would you expect a vegan restaurant to produce meat or dairy based nutrition when asked? Would a Muslim chef be expected to produce non-halal pasties for a cricket team from Cornwall who objected to Islamic ritual slaughter?


I don't think that's quite the killer point you think it is, given that nobody jumped in and screamed 'racist' while you were away.

But sometimes things are as they seem. Being arsey about providing halal food (which doesn't have to include meat, btw) when you know you have Muslims visiting is probably motivated by something more than innocent ignorance. 

Apology to Spymaster btw. I misremembered that he was one of the people who told me about this. Appears I was mistaken. Genuine mistake - I was told it but not by him. And to say that there are a lot of people in cricket trying hard  to get rid of all this kind of shit.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 17, 2021)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> Sorry to take so long to get back to you all. I've been out for a long walk. But now I will reveal all. The answer was, of course, ignorant. This was back in the 1970's and at that time he probably only came across vegetarians infrequently. He wasn't tight-arsed, however, as when a truly vegetarian pizza was finally produced he didn't charge for it. Which only goes to show something or other important.
> (drums fingers on table for a bit)
> Ah yes, I remember what it was. It's all too easy to fling accusations around implying motive behind actions. Cricket teams may be very competitive, so much so that they fail to provide halal meat sarnies so as to unsettle their opponents. Or they may be ignorant. Or they may object to the Islamic halal animal killing practices. Or they may be racist or antagonists of a particular religion. Or something else.
> I'm not trying to defend anyone's actions here, just objecting to the demands of religion on everybody else. Would you expect a vegan restaurant to produce meat or dairy based nutrition when asked? Would a Muslim chef be expected to produce non-halal pasties for a cricket team from Cornwall who objected to Islamic ritual slaughter?


Ta dah, you added more information than you initially gave us.


----------



## Teaboy (Mar 17, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Apology to Spymaster btw. I misremembered that he was one of the people who told me about this. Appears I was mistaken. Genuine mistake - I was told it but not by him. And to say that there are a lot of people in cricket trying hard  to get rid of all this kind of shit.



It might have been me. I've definitely told cricketing anecdotes here along those lines but they were historical ones from the 90's.  I'd be surprised if it was still happening today.


----------



## 8ball (Mar 17, 2021)

I'd kind of figured most pasties would be only an Imam's blessing away from being Halal.

edit:  found some ropey crap involving racists crowing about Ginster's pasties being the best because they have no Halal range, which has led to what looks like a network of racist meat suppliers that I wasn't previously aware of.

https://lam_b2ewe.c_o.uk/welfare-and-slau_ghter-policy/

<underscores added to URL to avoid causing any hassle>


----------



## chilango (Mar 17, 2021)

Santino said:


> Is the mob also burning a straw man?





chilango said:


> In Danny's neck of the woods quite possibly.



I'm disappointed that my Wicker Man joke fell so flat tbh.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 17, 2021)

chilango said:


> I'm disappointed that my Wicker Man joke fell so flat tbh.


Oh god. Oh Jesus Christ.


----------



## killer b (Mar 17, 2021)

Wilf said:


> I'm only on page 2 of what will no doubt be a funky thread, but this post is out front at the moment.


it's solid gold all the way through mate. take your time & savour it.


----------



## tim (Mar 17, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> Oh god. Oh Jesus Christ.


Cheer UP! today is the equilux which means:


----------



## killer b (Mar 17, 2021)

I watched The Wickerman for the first time the other week, and while I enjoyed it well enough I'm not sure it's deserving of it's reputation - that final scene is magnificent though, and I spent an enjoyable evening listening to different versions of Sumer Is Icumen In as a result.


----------



## brogdale (Mar 17, 2021)

killer b said:


> I watched The Wickerman for the first time the other week, and while I enjoyed it well enough *I'm not sure it's deserving of it's reputation *- that final scene is magnificent though, and I spent an enjoyable evening listening to different versions of Sumer Is Icumen In as a result.


Thread takes a controversial tangent....


----------



## killer b (Mar 17, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Thread takes a controversial tangent....


I enjoyed it! But it's often talked about as one of the greatest films of all time rather than being a fairly shlocky exploitation horror film....


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 17, 2021)

killer b said:


> I watched The Wickerman for the first time the other week, and while I enjoyed it well enough I'm not sure it's deserving of it's reputation - that final scene is magnificent though, and I spent an enjoyable evening listening to different versions of Sumer Is Icumen In as a result.


I remember when I first saw it many years ago and had absolutely no idea what it was about. Just thought it was some Hammer-related nonsense. Sometimes it's better to watch films when you know nothing about them. I think people get let down by Citizen Kane for the same reason.


----------



## brogdale (Mar 17, 2021)

killer b said:


> I enjoyed it! But it's often talked about as one of the greatest films of all time rather than being a fairly shlocky exploitation horror film....


Nah, it's a work of genius.


----------



## 8ball (Mar 17, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Nah, it's a work of genius.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 17, 2021)

8ball said:


> View attachment 259114


*NOT THE PROPER WICKERMAN!*


----------



## killer b (Mar 17, 2021)

I also enjoyed the Nic Cage Wickerman, if we're being controversial now.


----------



## tim (Mar 17, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Thread takes a controversial tangent....


Cerainly some dramatic tangents.

_In geometry, the tangent line to a plane curve at a given point is the straight line that "just touches" the curve at that point. Leibniz defined it as the line through a pair of infinitely close points on the curve._


----------



## Sue (Mar 17, 2021)

chilango said:


> I'm disappointed that my Wicker Man joke fell so flat tbh.


I pointedly ignored it because it's not danny la rouge's neck of the woods. Well apart from being in the same country  .


----------



## kittyP (Mar 17, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I remember when I first saw it many years ago and had absolutely no idea what it was about. Just thought it was some Hammer-related nonsense. Sometimes it's better to watch films when you know nothing about them. I think people get let down by Citizen Kane for the same reason.



I didn't watch Citizen Kane or The Godfather until I was in my late 20s and found both quite boring.


----------



## killer b (Mar 17, 2021)

Citizen Kane is dull, I didn't bother finishing it


----------



## JimW (Mar 17, 2021)

killer b said:


> Citizen Kane is dull, I didn't bother finishing it


It's the sledge.


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 17, 2021)

killer b said:


> Citizen Kane is dull, I didn't bother finishing it


Dull it isn't


----------



## Sue (Mar 17, 2021)

killer b said:


> I also enjoyed the Nic Cage Wickerman, if we're being controversial now.





killer b said:


> Citizen Kane is dull, I didn't bother finishing it


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 17, 2021)

kittyP said:


> I didn't watch Citizen Kane or The Godfather until I was in my late 20s and found both quite boring.


I'm with you on The Godfather. I do think Citizen Kane is worthy of its reputation, though, but quite a lot of people don't like it.


----------



## Sue (Mar 17, 2021)

JimW said:


> It's the sledge.





Spoiler



Use the spoiler tags FFS.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 17, 2021)

kittyP said:


> I didn't watch Citizen Kane or The Godfather until I was in my late 20s and found both quite boring.


The first two Godfathers are among my favourite films. I regularly rewatch them.  But I quite agree, Citizen Kane is a yawnfest. Beautifully lit, but dull dull dull.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 17, 2021)

JimW said:


> It's the sledge.


I thought it was the butler.


----------



## JimW (Mar 17, 2021)

Reminds me of one of my favourite jokes:
"Which of the slopes is best for slalom would you say?"
"Sorry, I'm not a skier, I'm a tobogganist."
"Oh, well I'll just have twenty Silk Cut then."


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 17, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> The first two Godfathers are among my favourite films. I regularly rewatch them.  But I quite agree, Citizen Kane is a yawnfest. Beautifully lit, but dull dull dull.


Getting chin-scratchy, I think CK (and all Welles stuff really) is very atypical of American films. He's not a big one for the conventional story arc or resolution. More European in his sensibility. He was the perfect director to tackle The Trial, I think, which is my favourite Welles film.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 17, 2021)

JimW said:


> Reminds me of one of my favourite jokes:
> "Which of the slopes is best for slalom would you say?"
> "Sorry, I'm not a skier, I'm a tobogganist."
> "Oh, well I just have twenty Silk Cut then."


MrSki


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 17, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Getting chin-scratchy, I think CK (and all Welles stuff really) is very atypical of American films. He's not a big one for the conventional story arc or resolution. More European in his sensibility. He was the perfect director to tackle The Trial, I think, which is my favourite Welles film.


If we’re being controversial, my favourite Welles film (as director) is the Magnificent Ambersons.


----------



## chilango (Mar 17, 2021)

Sue said:


> I pointedly ignored it because it's not danny la rouge's neck of the woods. Well apart from being in the same country  .



Never let facts get in the way of a weak joke.


----------



## xenon (Mar 17, 2021)

Godfather is quite dull too TBH.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 17, 2021)

xenon said:


> Godfather is quite dull too TBH.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 17, 2021)

xenon said:


> Godfather is quite dull too TBH.


shit unpopular opinions thread >>>


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 17, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Getting chin-scratchy, I think CK (and all Welles stuff really) is very atypical of American films. He's not a big one for the conventional story arc or resolution. More European in his sensibility. He was the perfect director to tackle The Trial, I think, which is my favourite Welles film.


we really should have a pseud's corner for things like this


----------



## MrSki (Mar 17, 2021)

JimW said:


> Reminds me of one of my favourite jokes:
> "Which of the slopes is best for slalom would you say?"
> "Sorry, I'm not a skier, I'm a tobogganist."
> "Oh, well I'll just have twenty Silk Cut then."


That joke was under discussion on the Bandwidthz thread last night but it was 20 B & H.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 17, 2021)

MrSki said:


> That joke was under discussion on the Bandwidthz thread last night but it was 20 B & H.


better quality of smoker there no doubt


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Mar 17, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I don't think that's quite the killer point you think it is, given that nobody jumped in and screamed 'racist' while you were away.
> 
> But sometimes things are as they seem. Being arsey about providing halal food (which doesn't have to include meat, btw) when you know you have Muslims visiting is probably motivated by something more than innocent ignorance.


I didn't ever think I had any killer point, nor would I be daft enough to think any urbanites would fall for the obvious trap. Which is why I put it there. I can be quite predictable.

Halal encompasses a lot more than just meat, but it's the main thing people get bothered about, ime.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Mar 17, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> Ta dah, you added more information than you initially gave us.


Sneaky.


----------



## ska invita (Mar 17, 2021)

Wilf said:


> I'm only on page 2 of what will no doubt be a funky thread, but this post is out front at the moment.


Its pretty overhyped, i havent made it to the end and fast forwarded through the middle


----------



## killer b (Mar 17, 2021)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> Halal encompasses a lot more than just meat, but it's the main thing people get bothered about, ime.


IME people who're 'bothered' about halal slaughter practices but not bothered about standard UK slaughter practices aren't actually bothered about halal slaughter practices at all.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 17, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Its pretty overhyped, i havent made it to the end and fast forwarded through the middle


The bit about films is good.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Mar 17, 2021)

killer b said:


> IME people who're 'bothered' about halal slaughter practices but not bothered about standard UK slaughter practices aren't actually bothered about halal slaughter practices at all.


By which I meant that when I've had Muslim friends round to eat they've not enquired about the origins of the salad.


----------



## chilango (Mar 17, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Its pretty overhyped, i havent made it to the end and fast forwarded through the middle


----------



## hitmouse (Mar 17, 2021)

killer b said:


> Citizen Kane is dull, I didn't bother finishing it


What did you think of the Nicolas Cage version?


----------



## 8ball (Mar 17, 2021)

kittyP said:


> I didn't watch Citizen Kane or The Godfather until I was in my late 20s and found both quite boring.



I liked the Godfather but I can’t sit through Citizen Kane, and I manage to help as a reviewer for a film festival without giving up on anything so far.


----------



## 8ball (Mar 17, 2021)

killer b said:


> I also enjoyed the Nic Cage Wickerman, if we're being controversial now.



Two versions of the same film.  One has no Nicolas Cage in it.  One has Nicolas Cage in it.

Of _course_ the second one is better.


----------



## killer b (Mar 17, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> What did you think of the Nicolas Cage version?


I wish it existed, I reckon I'd love it. Though probably not as much as I'd love how much its existence riled the cinema bros.


----------



## Serge Forward (Mar 17, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> If we’re being controversial, my favourite Welles film (as director) is the Magnificent Ambersons.


Touch of Evil for the win. The opening scene especially (you can stop watching after that).


----------



## Raheem (Mar 17, 2021)

8ball said:


> Two versions of the same film.  One has no Nicolas Cage in it.  One has Nicolas Cage in it.


Was the wicker man prop in the 2006 version made from actual wicker?

If not, that would be Nicholas Cage in a wickerless cage.


----------



## Sue (Mar 17, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> The bit about films is good.


Although I'm still waiting for your treatise on class, the rise of the automobile and the Magnificent Ambersons.


----------



## krtek a houby (Mar 17, 2021)

killer b said:


> Citizen Kane is dull, I didn't bother finishing it



Never get the whole giving up on films. Always watch to the bitter end. Citizen Kane is one of my favourites. Maybe the hype has done for it, over the years.


----------



## JimW (Mar 18, 2021)

Raheem said:


> f not, that would be Nicholas Cage in a wickerless cage.


Now just imagine if he filmed the scene furious because he had no underpants on.


----------



## Knotted (Mar 18, 2021)

killer b said:


> I watched The Wickerman for the first time the other week, and while I enjoyed it well enough I'm not sure it's deserving of it's reputation - that final scene is magnificent though, and I spent an enjoyable evening listening to different versions of Sumer Is Icumen In as a result.



I was underwhelmed the first time I saw it as well. But I've come to love after seeing the extended cut. I think if the whole idea of the pagan cult doesn't feel seductive to you, the film will fall a bit flat. Also it's kind of funny when you watch it again, with Edward Woodward's reactions to the naked flame dance, the maypole etc. "But, but they're _naked_" / "Well naturally...". Also it's a great musical.

Anyway I feel we've strayed from the topic of the thread. Can we please, please, please get back to more pressing matters!

Now what was this business with the swan?


----------



## Kaka Tim (Mar 18, 2021)

JimW said:


> Reminds me of one of my favourite jokes:
> "Which of the slopes is best for slalom would you say?"
> "Sorry, I'm not a skier, I'm a tobogganist."
> "Oh, well I'll just have twenty Silk Cut then."


Great joke - but you missed out the whole build up where he keeps calling a zig zag a zig zog and infuriating his ski instructor - so they ask another bloke on the slope to settle the argument - "when you go in and out of flags or trees or whatever, is it a zig zag or a zig zog?" setting up the punch line.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 18, 2021)

I often wonder how the Dagenham Girl Pipers are coping with lockdown.


----------



## NoXion (Mar 18, 2021)

killer b said:


> IME people who're 'bothered' about halal slaughter practices but not bothered about standard UK slaughter practices aren't actually bothered about halal slaughter practices at all.



The thing that gets me about it is that it doesn't actually sound that bad. Sure, they don't stun the creature (IIRC), but then I'm kind of skeptical about whether electrical stunning really does much beyond stopping the animal from moving; my experience of being electrocuted tells me that you can most definitely still be aware and feel things, and I suspect it's more done for ease of handling by workers than for the animal's sake. Not sure about this so feel free to correct me, but don't they also have to kill the animal by slitting its throat with a very sharp knife? I've accidentally cut myself with blades so sharp that I didn't realise until the blood started dripping. Death by major and rapid loss of blood volume is hardly Rasputinian.

Plus the major giveaway is that the sort of people who complain about halal slaughter are also the same types who hardly ever even mentioned standard slaughtering practices before. So yeah, racists.


----------



## Kaka Tim (Mar 18, 2021)

Ive remembered another episode in Burchil's long history of bile is her coming out with a whole boatload of transphobic bigotry a few years ago - think it lost her a newspaper column as a result.


----------



## Raheem (Mar 18, 2021)

JimW said:


> Now just imagine if he filmed the scene furious because he had no underpants on.


And if he had insisted on being paid only in notes...



Spoiler



...he'd be on a nickel-less wage.


----------



## cantsin (Mar 18, 2021)

Knotted said:


> I was underwhelmed the first time I saw it as well. But I've come to love after seeing the extended cut. I think if the whole idea of the pagan cult doesn't feel seductive to you, the film will fall a bit flat. Also it's kind of funny when you watch it again, with Edward Woodward's reactions to the naked flame dance, the maypole etc. "But, but they're _naked_" / "Well naturally...". Also it's a great musical.
> 
> Anyway I feel we've strayed from the topic of the thread. Can we please, please, please get back to more pressing matters!
> 
> Now what was this business with the swan?



it's the atmosphere of the whole thing, coming out of that period when the rebellious, politically awake spirit of the late sixties had partially collapsed, and people were drifting off into all kinds of esoterica, "looking within" for answers etc... and this filmed  seemed to just open up a glimpse of this fully formed, alt pagan world out there somewhere ( and there seemed to be  all kinds of culty charlatans / shamans / chancers at it back then ) .


----------



## MrSki (Mar 18, 2021)

Kaka Tim said:


> Great joke - but you missed out the whole build up where he keeps calling a zig zag a zig zog and infuriating his ski instructor - so they ask another bloke on the slope to settle the argument - "when you go in and out of flags or trees or whatever, is it a zig zag or a zig zog?" setting up the punch line.


In the version I remember it was a zig zag or a zag zig & as I said before it was 20 B&H.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Mar 18, 2021)

killer b said:


> Citizen Kane is dull, I didn't bother finishing it


The most boring, uninteresting film I've ever seen. I enjoyed the first two Godfather films though.


----------



## Raheem (Mar 18, 2021)

MrSki said:


> In the version I remember it was a zig zag or a zag zig & as I said before it was 20 B&H.


It should rightly end with character A asking for some "toboggo".


----------



## killer b (Mar 18, 2021)

Don't get me wrong, I really did enjoy Wickerman - I'm a big fan of shlocky exploitation horror films. But I suppose I was expecting something slicker. And I definitely wasn't expecting it to be a musical.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Mar 18, 2021)

I enjoyed his work with J Majik.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Mar 18, 2021)

killer b said:


> Citizen Kane is dull, I didn't bother finishing it


I very much regret making it to the end


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 18, 2021)

NoXion said:


> The thing that gets me about it is that it doesn't actually sound that bad. Sure, they don't stun the creature (IIRC), but then I'm kind of skeptical about whether electrical stunning really does much beyond stopping the animal from moving; my experience of being electrocuted tells me that you can most definitely still be aware and feel things, and I suspect it's more done for ease of handling by workers than for the animal's sake. Not sure about this so feel free to correct me, but don't they also have to kill the animal by slitting its throat with a very sharp knife? I've accidentally cut myself with blades so sharp that I didn't realise until the blood started dripping. Death by major and rapid loss of blood volume is hardly Rasputinian.
> 
> Plus the major giveaway is that the sort of people who complain about halal slaughter are also the same types who hardly ever even mentioned standard slaughtering practices before. So yeah, racists.


To stun or not to stun is kind of disputed wrt Halal and Kosher killing. Most halal slaughter is done with pre-stun in the UK now anyway. The best knowledge is that pre-stunning does reduce suffering, and I would support a complete ban on non-stun slaughter. I see no justification for a religious exemption. However, it is also true enough that there are important issues to do with slaughter in the UK other than stunning. 

Humane Slaughter & Stunned Meat | RSPCA


----------



## DaveCinzano (Mar 18, 2021)

JimW said:


> Reminds me of one of my favourite jokes:
> "Which of the slopes is best for slalom would you say?"
> "Sorry, I'm not a skier, I'm a tobogganist."
> "Oh, well I'll just have twenty Silk Cut then."


Dad..?


----------



## Wilf (Mar 18, 2021)

killer b said:


> Don't get me wrong, I really did enjoy Wickerman - I'm a big fan of shlocky exploitation horror films. But I suppose I was expecting something slicker. And I definitely wasn't expecting it to be a musical.


Long time since I've seen it but I thought it was the music that set it aside from just about every other horror film?  Not just that it has pagan-folky-hippy-ish music throughout, it doesn't have any of the atmospherics of a typical horror film.


----------



## killer b (Mar 18, 2021)

Wilf said:


> Long time since I've seen it but I thought it was the music that set it aside from just about every other horror film?


I had heard it had a great soundtrack, but lots of films have great soundtracks but aren't musicals...


----------



## killer b (Mar 18, 2021)

FWIW I recently watched Roddy McDowall's 1970 folk horror film Tam Lin, which also has an excellent sinister folk soundtrack (from Pentangle) and has similar production values - and an incredible central performance from Ava Gardner... and while it's not as singularly weird as Wickerman, it did seem odd to me while watching that Wickerman is often listed as one of the greatest films ever made, and Tam Lin is totally unheard of (you can watch it for free on youtube if you like)


----------



## Knotted (Mar 18, 2021)

killer b said:


> FWIW I recently watched Roddy McDowall's 1970 folk horror film Tam Lin, which also has an excellent sinister folk soundtrack (from Pentangle) and has similar production values - and an incredible central performance from Ava Gardner... and while it's not as singularly weird as Wickerman, it did seem odd to me while watching that Wickerman is often listed as one of the greatest films ever made, and Tam Lin is totally unheard of (you can watch it for free on youtube if you like)



Try Blood on Satan's Claw.


----------



## killer b (Mar 18, 2021)

killer b said:


> FWIW I recently watched Roddy McDowall's 1970 folk horror film Tam Lin, which also has an excellent sinister folk soundtrack (from Pentangle) and has similar production values - and an incredible central performance from Ava Gardner... and while it's not as singularly weird as Wickerman, it did seem odd to me while watching that Wickerman is often listed as one of the greatest films ever made, and Tam Lin is totally unheard of (you can watch it for free on youtube if you like)


oh and it also stars an unexpectedly beautiful young Ian Mcshane, and Joanna Lumley as a satanist hippie. It's got everything really.


----------



## tim (Mar 18, 2021)

cantsin said:


> it's the atmosphere of the whole thing, coming out of that period when the rebellious, politically awake spirit of the late sixties had partially collapsed, and people were drifting off into all kinds of esoterica, "looking within" for answers etc... and this filmed  seemed to just open up a glimpse of this fully formed, alt pagan world out there somewhere ( and there seemed to be  all kinds of culty charlatans / shamans / chancers at it back then ) .



I've always assumed it's model is the Findhorn Community



Findhorn eco-community marks 50 years


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 18, 2021)

killer b said:


> oh and it also stars an unexpectedly beautiful young Ian Mcshane, and Joanna Lumley as a satanist hippie. It's got everything really.


I watched that on your recommendation. Very enjoyable, and deserving of more attention definitely. Ian McShane was famously beautiful as a youth, no? Villain is another where he parades his beauty. Another underrated film.


----------



## killer b (Mar 18, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Ian McShane was famously beautiful as a youth, no?


He may have been, but I was unaware of anything he'd done before Lovejoy, so...


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 18, 2021)

this is turning into the best thread currently on urban


----------



## Orang Utan (Mar 18, 2021)

killer b said:


> I had heard it had a great soundtrack, but lots of films have great soundtracks but aren't musicals...


Careful now, I got torn apart on here a few years ago for suggesting The Wicker Man was a musical


----------



## killer b (Mar 18, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> Careful now, I got torn apart on here a few years ago for suggesting The Wicker Man was a musical


but it is though.


----------



## Orang Utan (Mar 18, 2021)

killer b said:


> but it is though.


I agree. Others didn’t!


----------



## killer b (Mar 18, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> I agree. Others didn’t!


well. they're wrong.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 18, 2021)

imo a musical is a film in which the action stops for people to have a sing-song, then the action starts again. Bit like ad breaks. 

By that measure, Wicker Man is not a musical. It is a film in which people play music.


----------



## Orang Utan (Mar 18, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> imo a musical is a film in which the action stops for people to have a sing-song, then the action starts again. Bit like ad breaks.
> 
> By that measure, Wicker Man is not a musical. It is a film in which people play music.


 Nonsense. The action often continues while they’re singing.


----------



## killer b (Mar 18, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> imo a musical is a film in which the action stops for people to have a sing-song, then the action starts again. Bit like ad breaks.
> 
> By that measure, Wicker Man is not a musical. It is a film in which people play music.


_by this measure I just made up, the wicker man is not a musical._


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 18, 2021)

killer b said:


> _by this measure I just made up, the wicker man is not a musical._


I think it's a good measure. It provides clarity where otherwise there is muddled thinking. Does song break out in inappropriate places? No. So it's not a musical.


----------



## Knotted (Mar 18, 2021)

To be fair it needs more songs to be a proper musical. No naff filler!


----------



## two sheds (Mar 18, 2021)

killer b said:


> _by this measure I just made up, the wicker man is not a musical._



neither is My Fair Lady, my favourite non musical


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 18, 2021)

The 'musical' bits in the Wicker Man are there _because_ they're tonally inappropriate, not because the film a musical and they're supposed to be there.


----------



## Santino (Mar 18, 2021)

A good rule of thumb is whether the film would make sense without the songs.


----------



## Orang Utan (Mar 18, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> The 'musical' bits in the Wicker Man are there _because_ they're tonally inappropriate, not because the film a musical and they're supposed to be there.


What? They’re totally appropriate and are part of the plot


----------



## Knotted (Mar 18, 2021)

Also there isn't that much action. It's just Edward Woodward wondering about looking disapproving.


----------



## killer b (Mar 18, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I think it's a good measure. It provides clarity where otherwise there is muddled thinking.


I think Willow's Song is 100% musical theatre in particular. You could maybe get away with saying it isn't a musical it if that wasn't there. But it is.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 18, 2021)

How is this what the thread is about now?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 18, 2021)

Santino said:


> A good rule of thumb is whether the film would make sense without the songs.



Yes. In Wicker Man the songs are part of the setting, not the plot.


----------



## tim (Mar 18, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> Careful now, I got torn apart on here a few years ago for suggesting The Wicker Man was a musical



Excellent, the type of pseudo-Celtic sacrifice and rebirth ritual we need more of on Urban, particularly at this time of year. Is this the sort of malarkey that goes on at those Offline events?


----------



## Steel Icarus (Mar 18, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> How is this what the thread is about now?


When you've had the pizza you move onto the tiramisu


----------



## killer b (Mar 18, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> How is this what the thread is about now?


because talking about pretty much anything else is more fun than talking about Julie Burchill


----------



## Knotted (Mar 18, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> Yes. In Wicker Man the songs are part of the setting, not the plot.



Willow's Song is crucial to the plot.


----------



## Knotted (Mar 18, 2021)

killer b said:


> because talking about pretty much anything else is more fun than talking about Julie Burchill



She weirds me out more than anything in the Wickerman.


----------



## Santino (Mar 18, 2021)

When I say 'make sense' I don't just mean the plot. I mean something broader about whether it would hang together, would it form a coherent whole?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 18, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> What? They’re totally appropriate and are part of the plot



We start off with the news of the suspected murder of a young woman, then walk into this incredibly pervy barroom singalong about a young woman. It's not supposed to be a fun happy moment, it's a 'something is wrong here' moment.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Mar 18, 2021)

killer b said:


> He may have been, but I was unaware of anything he'd done before Lovejoy, so...


Have a crack at _Villain_


----------



## tim (Mar 18, 2021)

killer b said:


> I think Willow's Song is 100% musical theatre in particular. You could maybe get away with saying it isn't a musical it if that wasn't there. But it is.


It's an opera, not a musical.


----------



## Knotted (Mar 18, 2021)

The rule for something being a musical is pretty straight forward isn't it. - People within the world of the film start singing. So it's a musical. Obvs


----------



## killer b (Mar 18, 2021)

tim said:


> It's an opera, not a musical.


an opera is 100% sung though, so it definitely doesn't fit that.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Mar 18, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> We start off with the news of the suspected murder of a young woman, then walk into this incredibly pervy barroom singalong about a young woman. It's not supposed to be a fun happy moment, it's a 'something is wrong here' moment.



It's not the Sarah Everard thread Frank. It's the Julie Burchill one.


----------



## Raheem (Mar 18, 2021)

A musical switches between two different modes: standard drama and song. The characters suddenly burst into song in situations where they wouldn't in real life. In the Wicker Man, there's no mode-switching. The characters are singing because they're singing. Even the naked Britt Eckland bit, albeit the singing is a bit weird, but that's the idea: we're supposed to accept that she really is singing.


----------



## hitmouse (Mar 18, 2021)

The Wicker Man could be adapted into a full musical, but that shows that it isn't currently.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 18, 2021)

/


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 18, 2021)

Raheem said:


> A musical switches between two different modes: standard drama and song. The characters suddenly burst into song in situations where they wouldn't in real life. In the Wicker Man, there's no mode-switching. The characters are singing because they're singing. Even the naked Britt Eckland bit, albeit the singing is a bit weird, but that's the idea: we're supposed to accept that she really is singing.


yeh carousel, grease or the sound of music this ain't


----------



## xenon (Mar 18, 2021)

Wicca man is not a musical. It’s a film with a lot of music in it. If it ha been a musical, I wouldn’t hav watched it I have, ergo.


----------



## Knotted (Mar 18, 2021)

Raheem said:


> A musical switches between two different modes: standard drama and song. The characters suddenly burst into song in situations where they wouldn't in real life. In the Wicker Man, there's no mode-switching. The characters are singing because they're singing. Even the naked Britt Eckland bit, albeit the singing is a bit weird, but that's the idea: we're supposed to accept that she really is singing.



Yes alright. But I watch it as a musical with anticipation for the musical numbers.


----------



## killer b (Mar 18, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> The Wicker Man could be adapted into a full musical, but that shows that it isn't currently.


it has been adapted into a musical, of course.


----------



## tim (Mar 18, 2021)

Rutita1 said:


> It's not the Sarah Everard thread Frank. It's the Julie Burchill one.


It's becoming the Rowan Morrison one.


----------



## marty21 (Mar 18, 2021)

killer b said:


> because talking about pretty much anything else is more fun than talking about Julie Burchill


Yep, totes agree .


----------



## Yossarian (Mar 18, 2021)

If it was a standard musical it would have opened with Edward Woodward tap-dancing while singing exposition about being a virgin Scottish cop saving himself for marriage.

Apparently something along those lines has been attempted:









						Playing with fire: The Wicker Man musical
					

The Wicker Man is a cult horror classic. Are the team of Scots who have turned the film into a musical – and rejigged its shocking ending – worried about offending fans? By Alfred Hickling




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## killer b (Mar 18, 2021)

I make no claim to it being any kind of 'standard' musical. It's definitely an unusual entry to the genre.


----------



## Orang Utan (Mar 18, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> We start off with the news of the suspected murder of a young woman, then walk into this incredibly pervy barroom singalong about a young woman. It's not supposed to be a fun happy moment, it's a 'something is wrong here' moment.


Yes, exactly


----------



## hitmouse (Mar 18, 2021)

killer b said:


> it has been *adapted into* a musical, of course.


I rest my case. No-one goes around adapting West Side Story or South Pacific into musicals. No further questions, your honour.


----------



## Orang Utan (Mar 18, 2021)

Raheem said:


> A musical switches between two different modes: standard drama and song. The characters suddenly burst into song in situations where they wouldn't in real life. In the Wicker Man, there's no mode-switching. The characters are singing because they're singing. Even the naked Britt Eckland bit, albeit the singing is a bit weird, but that's the idea: we're supposed to accept that she really is singing.


There’s plenty of musicals in which the songs are performed as part of real life


----------



## killer b (Mar 18, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> I rest my case. No-one goes around adapting West Side Story or South Pacific into musicals. No further questions, your honour.


lol, I meant to write 'stage musical'.

Wikipedia agrees with me anyway (I wonder if you check the edit history it's just people editing the word 'musical' in and out over and over again?)


----------



## Orang Utan (Mar 18, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> I rest my case. No-one goes around adapting West Side Story or South Pacific into musicals. No further questions, your honour.


Er, yes they have and yes they do


----------



## hitmouse (Mar 18, 2021)

Can anyone get me a breakdown of where a) Julie Burchill, and b) each individual contributor to Novara Media stand on this important issue?


----------



## Santino (Mar 18, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> If it was a standard musical it would have opened with Edward Woodward tap-dancing while singing exposition about being a virgin Scottish cop saving himself for marriage.


This is what people believe who think musicals are like they are in The Simpsons.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 18, 2021)

Santino said:


> This is what people believe who think musicals are like they are in The Simpsons.


In reality, they are much worse than that.


----------



## steeplejack (Mar 18, 2021)

Fully expect the discussion to be a windmilling dogfight around the virtues of Filipino nose-flute virtuousos in ten pages

(who doesn't like _The Godfather? _Some right weirdoes on here)


----------



## Santino (Mar 18, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> In reality, they are much worse than that.


Most musicals are dross, but there are some amazing ones, and its pure snobbery to dismiss them all.


----------



## killer b (Mar 18, 2021)

I thought you'd all enjoy this clip I found of early 00s post-punk also rans The Futureheads doing a surprisingly decent 4-part acapella performance of _Sumer Is Icumen In_ btw


----------



## Yossarian (Mar 18, 2021)

I'm surprised Nicolas Cage hasn't appeared in "Wicker: The Musical" on Broadway yet.

"Not the bees, not the bees, Jesus Christ, they're stinging my knees...."


----------



## Wilf (Mar 18, 2021)

killer b said:


> _by this measure I just made up, the wicker man is not a musical._


No, no, no, LBJ is correct. Ask anybody.  

Or, should I say, 🎼 _No, no, no, LBJ is correct. Ask anybody._


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 18, 2021)

Santino said:


> Most musicals are dross, but there are some amazing ones, and its pure snobbery to dismiss them all.


I dislike the form. Even films that may otherwise be very good, like Singing in the Rain or Mother India, are spoiled for me by the song breaks.


----------



## killer b (Mar 18, 2021)

Wilf said:


> 🎼 _No, no, no, LBJ is correct. Ask anybody._


this is opera though


----------



## Santino (Mar 18, 2021)

Some films can be half-and-half, like Frozen. The first part of the story is told through the songs. But the last part is just an adventure and they all stop singing.


----------



## Santino (Mar 18, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I dislike the form. Even films that may otherwise be very good, like Singing in the Rain or Mother India, are spoiled for me by the song breaks.


That's a problem for you then, not the form.


----------



## Santino (Mar 18, 2021)

"I don't like the form of two-dimensional images being used to represent three-dimensional objects, therefore all paintings are crap."


----------



## Yossarian (Mar 18, 2021)

Santino said:


> This is what people believe who think musicals are like they are in The Simpsons.



Tbf the only musicals I can remember watching are the South Park movie and La La Land, both of which I liked.


----------



## killer b (Mar 18, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I dislike the form.


this is your issue then. you like the wickerman, therefore it can't possibly be a musical, because you don't like musicals.


----------



## Santino (Mar 18, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> Tbf the only musicals I can remember watching are the South Park movie and La La Land, both of which I liked.


I look forward to hearing your views on the form then.


----------



## Yossarian (Mar 18, 2021)

Santino said:


> I look forward to hearing your views on the form then.



"Mostly OK if you don't mind all the singing."


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 18, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Can anyone get me a breakdown of where a) Julie Burchill, and b) each individual contributor to Novara Media stand on this important issue?



Aaron Bastani believes that the answer to the question of whether the Wicker Man is a musical is, against all logic, somehow 'communism'.


----------



## Wilf (Mar 18, 2021)

Anyway...


----------



## strung out (Mar 18, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> Tbf the only musicals I can remember watching are the South Park movie and La La Land, both of which I liked.


You've never seen the Jungle Book, Aladdin, Lion King or Snow White?


----------



## strung out (Mar 18, 2021)

The last few pages of this thread read a bit like when people say that Kazuo Ishiguro or Margaret Attwood can't possibly be writing Science-Fiction, because they're good.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 18, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> Tbf the only musicals I can remember watching are the South Park movie and La La Land, both of which I liked.


how come you've never seen my fair lady or grease or the rocky horror picture show or kiss me kate?


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 18, 2021)

strung out said:


> The last few pages of this thread read a bit like when people say that Kazuo Ishiguro or Margaret Attwood can't possibly be writing Science-Fiction, because they're good.


we have struck a seam of snobbery


----------



## rubbershoes (Mar 18, 2021)

tim said:


> Excellent, the type of pseudo-Celtic sacrifice and rebirth ritual we need more of on Urban, particularly at this time of year. Is this the sort of malarkey that goes on at those Offline events?



Come along and find out 

🍗


----------



## Santino (Mar 18, 2021)

strung out said:


> You've never seen the Jungle Book, Aladdin, Lion King or Snow White?


Like Frozen, large chunks of those films work perfectly well without the songs. I'd say they're a sort of hybrid.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 18, 2021)

Santino said:


> Like Frozen, large chunks of those films work perfectly well without the songs. I'd say they're a sort of hybrid.


yes, you would


----------



## Yossarian (Mar 18, 2021)

strung out said:


> You've never seen the Jungle Book, Aladdin, Lion King or Snow White?



Oh yeah, I forgot about the Disney stuff.  And "Jerry Springer: The Opera."


----------



## Yossarian (Mar 18, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> how come you've never seen my fair lady or grease or the rocky horror picture show or kiss me kate?



I did see Grease and Rocky Horror many years ago, now you mention it - without this thread, I never would have realised that I'm such an aficionado of musicals.


----------



## chilango (Mar 18, 2021)

What about Mama Mia and Mama Mia 2?

Films (musicals?) that whilst solely consisting of sings with no other narrative or action to speak of would still make more sense without the songs?

As a kind of blissful John Cage esque musical of just the sound of the waves washing gently onto Greek beaches with occasional distant muffled clink of a wine glass being roughly set down on a bar table?


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 18, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> I did see Grease and Rocky Horror many years ago, now you mention it - without this thread, I never would have realised that I'm such an aficionado of musicals.


i've managed to avoid the sound of music for more than 40 years now. and you must have seen - willingly or no - mary poppins


----------



## killer b (Mar 18, 2021)

fwiw I particularly liked the apocalyptic brass band sound of the later parts of the Wickerman score, and would like to hear more music like that if anyone can point me in the right direction


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Mar 18, 2021)

The only decent musical is the Blues Brothers. I do not count the Wicker Man as one, but it's a good film.

I mean a devout, prim and proper, stuffy christian copper coming to a sticky end and having the piss taken out of him throughout the whole film, what's not to like.


----------



## Sue (Mar 18, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> Tbf the only musicals I can remember watching are the South Park movie and La La Land, both of which I liked.


Jeez, your mind will be blown if you watch an actual decent musical. 😮


----------



## Knotted (Mar 18, 2021)

In my opinion any film with non-diegetic music is a musical. I just sit there thinking, well where's that music coming from?? I don't really get the difference - dreamy musical sequences that abstract you from the realism of the film are just the same as everybody singing!

By that entirely just made up measure, the Wicker Man _is_ a musical but only because of the Corn Rigs bit with the plane at the beginning. Otherwise the music of the film is entirely part of the island we are exploring. Which is magical, I think. Films should be made like that.


----------



## killer b (Mar 18, 2021)

Sue said:


> Jeez, your mind will be blown if you watch an actual decent musical. 😮


La La Land is great though.


----------



## Sue (Mar 18, 2021)

killer b said:


> La La Land is great though.


Would've been much better not as a musical. And it's not a patch on the classic musicals of yesteryear. (I couldn't believe the reviews it got. I thought as a musical it was pretty mediocre.)


----------



## eatmorecheese (Mar 18, 2021)

So are we expecting "Burchill: the musical" any time soon? Haven't read the thread closely enough


----------



## hitmouse (Mar 18, 2021)

strung out said:


> The last few pages of this thread read a bit like when people say that Kazuo Ishiguro or Margaret Attwood can't possibly be writing Science-Fiction, because they're good.


As someone who's only read Remains of the Day and An Artist of the Floating World, I stand by the claim that Ishiguro isn't writing science fiction. Although I am open to anyone who wants to make the claim that Remains of the Day is actually a musical.


----------



## Knotted (Mar 18, 2021)

eatmorecheese said:


> So are we expecting "Burchill: the musical" any time soon? Haven't read the thread closely enough



Could you please stop trying to derail the thread!


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Mar 18, 2021)

I forgot about the South Park movie. That was great. Haven't seen it in years though, but I really enjoyed it at the time.


----------



## Kaka Tim (Mar 18, 2021)

Oliver.
Is great.
And definitely a musical.
So there.

Wicker Man - film with music. Characters sing songs in reality - they dont break out of the plot to sing and/or dance.
By the same token - not sure _Cabaret_ is strictly a musical .

Anyway - to sort of bring things back to the OP here's our Julie dribbling asking weather identity politics will kill the musical.  Will identity politics kill musical theatre? | The Spectator

I got as far as this - 





> For months now, since I first read about the plans for the Steven Spielberg/Tony Kushner remake of West Side Story, I’ve been musing on how the heavy hand of political correctness may well crush this most sumptuously subtle of musicals ...


 and judged i really didnt need to read anymore .


----------



## bimble (Mar 18, 2021)

I’m going to have to sit there and watch the wicker man aren’t i, managed to not find this necessary ever so far but now I need to, so I can have An Opinion.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 18, 2021)

Kaka Tim said:


> Oliver.
> Is great.
> And definitely a musical.
> So there.
> ...


Heroic on-topic posting!


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 18, 2021)

bimble said:


> I’m going to have to sit there and watch the wicker man aren’t i, managed to not find this necessary ever so far but now I need to, so I can have An Opinion.


It's great. It's a thoroughly enjoyable romp. With some music.


----------



## hitmouse (Mar 18, 2021)

bimble said:


> I’m going to have to sit there and watch the wicker man aren’t i, managed to not find this necessary ever so far but now I need to, so I can have An Opinion.


I hate to be the bearer of bad news, I think you need to sit down and watch the Wicker Man while also having a zoom call with Julie Burchill discussing whether identity politics is ruining it. Unfortunate, I know, but I don't make the rules.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 18, 2021)

bimble said:


> I’m going to have to sit there and watch the wicker man aren’t i, managed to not find this necessary ever so far but now I need to, so I can have An Opinion.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Mar 18, 2021)

killer b said:


> I wonder if you check the edit history it's just people editing the word 'musical' in and out over and over again?)


If only there was a way to find out


----------



## killer b (Mar 18, 2021)

DaveCinzano said:


> If only there was a way to find out


would you mind? I'm too busy.


----------



## strung out (Mar 18, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> As someone who's only read Remains of the Day and An Artist of the Floating World, I stand by the claim that Ishiguro isn't writing science fiction. Although I am open to anyone who wants to make the claim that Remains of the Day is actually a musical.


You should try _Never Let Me Go_, which is a book about clones bred as organ donors for the human population. His new book _Klara and the Sun_ is about an artificially intelligent robot companion for a dying teenage girl.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Mar 18, 2021)

killer b said:


> would you mind? I'm too busy.


I'm homeschooling right now so I'll set it as A Project


----------



## hitmouse (Mar 18, 2021)

Ooh, here's a good one: is The Blind Assassin a) sci-fi, b) not sci-fi, c) a sci-fi musical, d) etc etc?


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 18, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Ooh, here's a good one: is The Blind Assassin a) sci-fi, b) not sci-fi, c) a sci-fi musical, d) etc etc?


yes


----------



## Orang Utan (Mar 18, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Ooh, here's a good one: is The Blind Assassin a) sci-fi, b) not sci-fi, c) a sci-fi musical, d) etc etc?


A book


----------



## tim (Mar 18, 2021)

eatmorecheese said:


> So are we expecting "Burchill: the musical" any time soon? Haven't read the thread closely enough




_"Julie!" _would definitely be a Lloyd-Webber vehicle;_ "A funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Urban Forum."_ would be a Sondheim work.


----------



## eatmorecheese (Mar 18, 2021)

tim said:


> _"Julie!" _would definitely be a Lloyd-Webber vehicle;_ "A funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Urban Forum."_ would be a Sondheim work.


"The Book of Burchill" would be Stone & Parker...


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 18, 2021)

tbf she did start her career at a periodical dedicated to musicals. 

She should know a thing or two.


----------



## hitmouse (Mar 18, 2021)

Their train coverage was pretty good as well.


----------



## Serge Forward (Mar 18, 2021)

Is Wicker Man the new sausages?


----------



## DaveCinzano (Mar 18, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Ooh, here's a good one: is The Blind Assassin a) sci-fi, b) not sci-fi, c) a sci-fi musical, d) etc etc?





Pickman's model said:


> yes





Orang Utan said:


> A book


_Chicken Run_


----------



## Kaka Tim (Mar 18, 2021)

tim said:


> _"Julie!" _would definitely be a Lloyd-Webber vehicle




"Dont cry for me Gaurdianista.."


----------



## hitmouse (Mar 18, 2021)

Serge Forward said:


> Is Wicker Man the new sausages?


They make square Wicker Men up in Scotland?


----------



## planetgeli (Mar 18, 2021)

"Sarkar wasn't stallin'
When she told the Beast of Burchill
That she'd never rest contented 
Until she had driven her from the land
So she went to court to vanquish
And proceeded to extinguish
Julie and her vermin
This is how it all began"

Julie - The musical

She'd appreciate that.


----------



## Clair De Lune (Mar 18, 2021)

Weird to dip back into this thread and it be about musicals now. *Shudder


----------



## Knotted (Mar 18, 2021)

The Wicker Man isn't on Shudder unfortunately. (I have checked).


----------



## tim (Mar 18, 2021)

Clair De Lune said:


> Weird to dip back into this thread and it be about musicals now. *Shudder



Robert Hardy's long-awaited sequel to the Wickerman will make you shudder, but not in a good way despite having Christopher Lee in a cameo role.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 18, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> They make square Wicker Men up in Scotland?


Well, isosceles trapezoid wicker men.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Mar 18, 2021)

tim said:


> Robert Hardy's long-awaited sequel to the Wickerman will make you shudder, but not in a good way despite having Christopher Lee in a cameo role.



But it does have music in it so it is a musical


----------



## killer b (Mar 18, 2021)

Knotted said:


> The Wicker Man isn't on Shudder unfortunately. (I have checked).


Its on amazon prime, but mislabelled as the 2006 remake


----------



## Knotted (Mar 18, 2021)

killer b said:


> Its on amazon prime, but mislabelled as the 2006 remake



Are you trying to trick me into watching the Nicholas Cage film?


----------



## killer b (Mar 18, 2021)

Knotted said:


> Are you trying to trick me into watching the Nicholas Cage film?


No, I'm trying to help! I would urge you to watch the Cage remake though, it's pretty good.


----------



## Knotted (Mar 18, 2021)

killer b said:


> No, I'm trying to help! I would urge you to watch the Cage remake though, it's pretty good.



I've not seen it, but I've also never seen anybody praise it either... TBH Nicholas Cage is always great no matter how bad the film IME.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 18, 2021)

Knotted said:


> The Wicker Man isn't on Shudder unfortunately. (I have checked).


i've linked to it at the internet archive above, the 1973 film


----------



## Clair De Lune (Mar 18, 2021)

I once had to endure a live performance of Michael Jackson the musical with my kids nan. I swear the audience consisted of middle aged women getting off on young black men thrusting a lot. Very peculiar indeed. 

The only good musical is the blues brothers. Everything else is just a painful wank to nowhere. Every time I mention I don't like musicals someone recommends me one   Why do that?? Can't people just accept that not everyone likes the same shit as them?


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 18, 2021)

Clair De Lune said:


> I once had to endure a live performance of Michael Jackson the musical with my kids nan. I swear the audience consisted of middle aged women getting off on young black men thrusting a lot. Very peculiar indeed.
> 
> The only good musical is the blues brothers. Everything else is just a painful wank to nowhere. Every time I mention I don't like musicals someone recommends me one   Why do that?? Can't people just accept that not everyone likes the same shit as them?


as idumea might have said, the following musicals are banned: all


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 18, 2021)

Clair De Lune said:


> I once had to endure a live performance of Michael Jackson the musical with my kids nan. I swear the audience consisted of middle aged women getting off on young black men thrusting a lot. Very peculiar indeed.
> 
> The only good musical is the blues brothers. Everything else is just a painful wank to nowhere. Every time I mention I don't like musicals someone recommends me one   Why do that?? Can't people just accept that not everyone likes the same shit as them?


What about Guys and Dolls?

😉


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Mar 18, 2021)

Knotted said:


> Are you trying to trick me into watching the Nicholas Cage film?



Nic-rolling?


----------



## steeplejack (Mar 18, 2021)

Musicals are genuinely appalling.

I'd honestly rather re-sit my O-Level Chemistry than have to sit through even a nanosecond of painful, performatively cheerful wank.


----------



## killer b (Mar 18, 2021)

Knotted said:


> I've not seen it, but I've also never seen anybody praise it either... TBH Nicholas Cage is always great no matter how bad the film IME.


Well, I'm praising it.


----------



## Serge Forward (Mar 18, 2021)

steeplejack said:


> Musicals are genuinely appalling.
> 
> I'd honestly rather re-sit my O-Level Chemistry than have to sit through even a nanosecond of painful, performatively cheerful wank.


Even Singin' in the Rain?


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Mar 18, 2021)

New publisher dropped









						Julie Burchill fires new publisher identified as a white nationalist
					

A supporter of the far-right group Patriotic Alternative identifying herself as Tabatha Stirling has been recorded apologising for publishing authors of colour




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Kaka Tim (Mar 18, 2021)

musicals are a huge and varied genre which have given us countless fantastic songs, great stories, hugely inventive eye popping spectacle and are a massively influential and important part of popular culture. To dismiss the entire genre out of some misplaced intellectual snobbery is intellectually lazy in the extreme.
Yes - there is a huge amount of utter wank, cringeworthy cheese and cliched drivel - but see also pop music, the novel and film drama.
This just in - its not all Elaine Page and Andrew Lloyd Webber.


----------



## killer b (Mar 18, 2021)

Elaine Page has done a few bangers in her time anyway. That duet with Barbara Dickson is brilliant.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 18, 2021)

killer b said:


> Elaine Page has done a few bangers in her time anyway. That duet with Barbara Dickson is brilliant.


i know it so well


----------



## killer b (Mar 18, 2021)

I guess we've mostly Bjorn & Benny to thank for it, but it's still an iconic performance


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 18, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> Sorry for the derail, but it seems Burchill’s saviour publisher is a Nazi. Lol.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Count Cuckula said:


> New publisher dropped
> 
> 
> 
> ...


i wonder if this publisher will be dropped a third time


----------



## Clair De Lune (Mar 18, 2021)

Kaka Tim said:


> musicals are a huge and varied genre which have given us countless fantastic songs, great stories, hugely inventive eye popping spectacle and are a massively influential and important part of popular culture. To dismiss the entire genre out of some misplaced intellectual snobbery is intellectually lazy in the extreme.
> Yes - there is a huge amount of utter wank, cringeworthy cheese and cliched drivel - but see also pop music, the novel and film drama.
> This just in - its not all Elaine Page and Andrew Lloyd Webber.


No


----------



## xenon (Mar 18, 2021)

Santino said:


> Most musicals are dross, but there are some amazing ones, and its pure snobbery to dismiss them all.



Quadrophenia is that one? I like that and team America. They are the only two.


----------



## Raheem (Mar 18, 2021)

Dancer in the Dark is good. And Jungle Book.


----------



## Knotted (Mar 18, 2021)

Scott Pilgrim?


----------



## xenon (Mar 18, 2021)

Oh yeah blues brothers. Apparently I do like some musicals.


----------



## planetgeli (Mar 18, 2021)

Clair De Lune said:


> Everything else is just a painful wank to nowhere. Every time I mention I don't like musicals someone recommends me one   Why do that??



Innit.

"I don't like musicals"

"Oh but you'll like - "

"Fuck off."


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 18, 2021)

planetgeli said:


> Innit.
> 
> "I don't like musicals"
> 
> ...


don't knock it, i'm writing the libretto for 'fuck off: the musical', a sprawling jewel of a show with 1895 swearwords in an hour and a half


----------



## steeplejack (Mar 18, 2021)

NB: it is possible to acknowledge the significant cultural / historical footprint of the musical genre, whilst cheerfully fucking detesting the genre.

"Snobbery"


----------



## Doodler (Mar 18, 2021)

Nothing better for Sunday afternoon TV than an old musical like Oklahoma!


----------



## Raheem (Mar 18, 2021)

planetgeli said:


> Innit.
> 
> "I don't like musicals"
> 
> ...


Quite right, but it should go:

"I don't like musicals"

"Fuck off."


----------



## Clair De Lune (Mar 18, 2021)

planetgeli said:


> Innit.
> 
> "I don't like musicals"
> 
> ...


Oh you don't like eating shit?  ok?! But have you tried erasing your memory of the worst old shit you've ever eaten by spreading a thick layer of extremely fresh and  pungent shit all over it? You'll love it I promise! Do let me know what you think once you've tried it babes xox


----------



## Raheem (Mar 18, 2021)

Clair De Lune said:


> Oh you don't like eating shit?  ok?! But have you tried erasing your memory of the worst old shit you've ever eaten by spreading a thick layer of extremely fresh and  pungent shit all over it? You'll love it I promise! Do let me know what you think once you've tried it babes xox


Just don't involve yourself in discussions about things you don't want people to talk to you about.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 18, 2021)

Clair De Lune said:


> Oh you don't like eating shit?  ok?! But have you tried erasing your memory of the worst old shit you've ever eaten by spreading a thick layer of extremely fresh and  pungent shit all over it? You'll love it I promise! Do let me know what you think once you've tried it babes xox


it's usually about now i recommend listening to black lace's agadoo to evict the earworm you have


----------



## Clair De Lune (Mar 18, 2021)

Raheem said:


> Just don't involve yourself in discussions about things you don't want people to talk to you about.


Oh    sorry I hadn't realised that urban was a place where one must only speak in the affirmative to the topic at hand. My apologies.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 18, 2021)

Clair De Lune said:


> Oh    sorry I hadn't realised that urban was a place where one must only speak in the affirmative to the topic at hand. My apologies.


raheem's new and hasn't got used to things round here yet


----------



## Raheem (Mar 18, 2021)

Clair De Lune said:


> Oh    sorry I hadn't realised that urban was a place where one must only speak in the affirmative to the topic at hand. My apologies.


No, you can slag off whatever you want, just don't expect no-one to to tell you you're wrong.


----------



## killer b (Mar 18, 2021)

Clair De Lune said:


> Oh you don't like eating shit?  ok?! But have you tried erasing your memory of the worst old shit you've ever eaten by spreading a thick layer of extremely fresh and  pungent shit all over it? You'll love it I promise! Do let me know what you think once you've tried it babes xox


have you tried watching the wicker man babes? seems it's the musical people who hate musicals love.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 18, 2021)

killer b said:


> have you tried watching the wicker man babes? seems it's the musical people who hate musicals love.


There’s a reason for that.


----------



## killer b (Mar 18, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> There’s a reason for that.


is it because musicals are a huge and varied genre which have given us countless fantastic songs, great stories, hugely inventive eye popping spectacle and are a massively influential and important part of popular culture, and to dismiss the entire genre out of some misplaced intellectual snobbery is intellectually lazy in the extreme?


----------



## Knotted (Mar 18, 2021)

My sister's husband's parents watched Wizard of Oz for the first time and hated it. I don't know how that's possible, but they did.


----------



## Clair De Lune (Mar 18, 2021)

Raheem said:


> No, you can slag off whatever you want, just don't expect no-one to to tell you you're wrong.


Are you telling me I'm wrong Raheem ? Because if so, that's fine.


----------



## Clair De Lune (Mar 18, 2021)

killer b said:


> is it because musicals are a huge and varied genre which have given us countless fantastic songs, great stories, hugely inventive eye popping spectacle and are a massively influential and important part of popular culture, and to dismiss the entire genre out of some misplaced intellectual snobbery is intellectually lazy in the extreme?


No


----------



## killer b (Mar 18, 2021)

Clair De Lune said:


> No


sounds like something a lazy intellectual snob would say


----------



## Knotted (Mar 18, 2021)

I think there's a case to be made that _Somewhere Over the Rainbow _is the greatest melody ever written.

[I'm just monologing now.]


----------



## killer b (Mar 18, 2021)

Knotted said:


> I think there's a case to be made that _Somewhere Over the Rainbow _is the greatest melody ever written.
> 
> [I'm just monologing now.]


it's actually _Sumer Is Icumen In_, which has managed to last the best part of a thousand years so far.


----------



## Clair De Lune (Mar 18, 2021)

killer b said:


> sounds like something a lazy intellectual snob would say


If that's what it makes me then I shall wear it like a garland in my hair cos I can't force myself to like anything


----------



## Knotted (Mar 18, 2021)

killer b said:


> it's actually _Sumer Is Icumen In_, which has managed to last the best part of a thousand years so far.



Hmm. It's a round rather than a standalone melody.


----------



## 8ball (Mar 18, 2021)

Knotted said:


> My sister's husband's parents watched Wizard of Oz for the first time and hated it. I don't know how that's possible, but they did.


 
I assume they were older than 5 when this happened.


----------



## Knotted (Mar 18, 2021)

Clair De Lune said:


> If that's what it makes me then I shall wear it like a garland in my hair cos I can't force myself to like anything



Judy Garland did indeed sing the greatest melody.


----------



## Raheem (Mar 18, 2021)

Clair De Lune said:


> Are you telling me I'm wrong Raheem ? Because if so, that's fine.


No, you might be right. Just I don't think there's much point in telling people if you know you're not going to like their responses.


----------



## 8ball (Mar 18, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> as idumea might have said, the following musicals are banned: all



I'd give Blues Brothers and The Jungle Book a pass, but still, it's a bigger gain than a loss in the scheme of things.
Did we cover whether Opera counts as musicals?


----------



## Clair De Lune (Mar 18, 2021)

Raheem said:


> No, you might be right. Just I don't think there's much point in telling people if you know you're not going to like their responses.


This is a fascinating point of view. Where are you applying this stance? To your whole life, just online or what? I imagine it must make sharing your actual views on anything very difficult.


----------



## Sue (Mar 18, 2021)

steeplejack said:


> Musicals are genuinely appalling.
> 
> I'd honestly rather re-sit my O-Level Chemistry than have to sit through even a nanosecond of painful, performatively cheerful wank.



They're not all cheerful! A Star is Born (1954 version) is heartrending (and a great film).

ETA And West Side Story isn't exactly ultimately cheerful either, for example.


----------



## Knotted (Mar 18, 2021)

Is it possible to hate all musicals but like some operas? Is it the mode switching thing that offends?


----------



## kittyP (Mar 18, 2021)

Raheem said:


> Dancer in the Dark is good. And Jungle Book.



Dancer in the Dark is amazing but so bleak and upsetting I don't think I could watch t again.


----------



## 8ball (Mar 18, 2021)

Knotted said:


> Is it possible to hate all musicals but like some operas? Is it the mode switching thing that offends?



The mode switching is a problem tbf.  Partly the clanking gear changes and partly the way that while they're singing you wish they were still talking and when they're talking you wish they were still singing, which leads to a kind of oscillating nausea and sense of displacement.


----------



## Knotted (Mar 18, 2021)

8ball said:


> The mode switching is a problem tbf.  Partly the clanking gear changes and partly the way that while they're singing you wish they were still talking and when they're talking you wish they were still singing, which leads to a kind of oscillating nausea and sense of displacement.



Yeah I'm with you on that. That bit where the dialogue is just there to set up the song (Lions and Tigers and Bears, Oh My!)...

But there's a kind of ridiculousness to that and art of all forms is basically just ridiculous.


----------



## kittyP (Mar 18, 2021)

Knotted said:


> I think there's a case to be made that _Somewhere Over the Rainbow _is the greatest melody ever written.
> 
> [I'm just monologing now.]



The original Judy Garland film version of that song is the most perfect piece of music/vocals ever!


----------



## 8ball (Mar 18, 2021)

Knotted said:


> Yeah I'm with you on that. That bit where the dialogue is just there to set up the song (Lions and Tigers and Bears, Oh My!)...
> 
> But there's a kind of ridiculousness to that and art of all forms is basically just ridiculous.



Except juggling.


----------



## petee (Mar 18, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> If we’re being controversial, my favourite Welles film (as director) is the Magnificent Ambersons.



i own that dvd.
but it's hard to choose: Touch of evil, Mr arkadin, Mag ambs. i didn't like F for Fake though.


----------



## Knotted (Mar 18, 2021)

kittyP said:


> The original Judy Garland film version of that song is the most perfect piece of music/vocals ever!



I think if you extracted just the vocals, it would still be a knock out. Compared to another contender like _Summertime -_ that needs the harmonisation to make it great.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 18, 2021)

kittyP said:


> The original Judy Garland film version of that song is the most perfect piece of music/vocals ever!


Features in the abominable dr phibes iirc


----------



## kittyP (Mar 18, 2021)

Knotted said:


> I think if you extracted just the vocals, it would still be a knock out. Compared to another contender like _Summertime -_ that needs the harmonisation to make it great.



I find myself "la la laaing" the verse melody, that sounds like a bird flying, to myself at least once a day I think.


----------



## kittyP (Mar 18, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Features in the abominable dr phibes iirc



I have no idea


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 18, 2021)

kittyP said:


> I have no idea


my mistake, it's in dr phibes rises again


----------



## Santino (Mar 18, 2021)

steeplejack said:


> Musicals are genuinely appalling.
> 
> I'd honestly rather re-sit my O-Level Chemistry than have to sit through even a nanosecond of painful, performatively cheerful wank.


This is the Simpsons view of musicals again. You're just proudly displaying your ignorance and expecting to be congratulated for it.


----------



## steeplejack (Mar 18, 2021)

Not really, I'm sharing my dislike of musical productions based on personal experience / opinion.


----------



## Santino (Mar 18, 2021)

Hamilton is basically Jesus Christ Superstar for millennials.


----------



## chilango (Mar 18, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Features in the abominable dr phibes iirc



Saw them play at the Buckley Tivoli a few times. Underrated.


----------



## stethoscope (Mar 18, 2021)

All about Sondheim - West Side, Sweeney, Pacific Overtures, Company, Into The Woods


----------



## elbows (Mar 18, 2021)

I was searching for something else in regards musicals on youtube, but instead I ended up with this!


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 18, 2021)




----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 18, 2021)




----------



## elbows (Mar 18, 2021)




----------



## killer b (Mar 18, 2021)

elbows said:


>



This is so good. I showed a load of L&H to my kids a bit ago, mildly concerned it wouldn't hit, but they absolutely loved it, just like I did (and my own parents and grandparents before me). You need to put the work in to enjoy a lot of old films (cf. Citizen Kane) but it seems Laurel & Hardy will be a joy forever.


----------



## elbows (Mar 18, 2021)

killer b said:


> This is so good. I showed a load of L&H to my kids a bit ago, mildly concerned it wouldn't hit, but they absolutely loved it, just like I did (and my own parents and grandparents before me). You need to put the work in to enjoy a lot of old films (cf. Citizen Kane) but it seems Laurel & Hardy will be a joy forever.


----------



## xenon (Mar 18, 2021)

Opera can fuck off too. Not opera music, some of which is fantastic. But operas as a genre. I think I just don't like stories being interupted by or primarily delivered through the medium of song.


----------



## eatmorecheese (Mar 18, 2021)

In for a penny...


----------



## kittyP (Mar 18, 2021)

xenon said:


> Opera can fuck off too. Not opera music, some of which is fantastic. But operas as a genre. I think I just don't like stories being interupted by or primarily delivered through the medium of song.



I can't think of any opera I like but I love choral music


----------



## Serge Forward (Mar 18, 2021)

xenon said:


> Opera can fuck off too. Not opera music, some of which is fantastic. But operas as a genre. I think I just don't like stories being interupted by or primarily delivered through the medium of song.


What? Even La Traviata?


----------



## xenon (Mar 18, 2021)

Serge Forward said:


> What? Even La Traviata?



Yes, particularly so.

Probably.

I mean I haven't seen it but similarly, I don't need to eat all varieties to decide offal is not something I generally like.


----------



## Raheem (Mar 18, 2021)

xenon said:


> I mean I haven't seen it but similarly, I don't need to eat all varieties to decide offal is not something I generally like.


You do to decide if it's something you never like, though.


----------



## Serge Forward (Mar 18, 2021)

xenon said:


> Yes, particularly so.
> 
> Probably.
> 
> I mean I haven't seen it but similarly, I don't need to eat all varieties to decide offal is not something I generally like.


That's just bonkers. I rue the day the last UCP restaurant closed. Mind you, some tripe enthusiast in Italy has recently republished their tripe and cowheel recipe book. It's definitely worth investigating.
http://www.unitedcattleproducts.co.uk/

Eta: apologies to the comrade veggies and vegans


----------



## 8ball (Mar 18, 2021)

Serge Forward said:


> Eta: apologies to the comrade veggies and vegans



I'd have thought veggies and vegans would like the idea of meat eaters killing fewer animals to obtain the equivalent nutrition. 

Never tried tripe - I've heard it doesn't taste of much by itself.  My tastes in offal are fairly restricted and mainstream.


----------



## xenon (Mar 18, 2021)

Raheem said:


> You do to decide if it's something you never like, though.



What 

I dislike substances with x properties. 

Oh but you must try all substances with x properties before deciding you eschew them by default.

No one does that.


----------



## Clair De Lune (Mar 18, 2021)

Raheem said:


> You do to decide if it's something you never like, though.


Or just let people dislike certain things? We're not actually planning to ban anything you like so?


----------



## Clair De Lune (Mar 18, 2021)

xenon said:


> What
> 
> I dislike substances with x properties.
> 
> ...


I don't high five anyone but have a cheery agreeable nod.


----------



## planetgeli (Mar 18, 2021)

Clair De Lune said:


> Or just let people dislike certain things? We're not actually planning to ban anything you like so?



I will advocate the banning of them if it winds up Raheem a bit more.


----------



## 8ball (Mar 18, 2021)

Clair De Lune said:


> Or just let people dislike certain things? We're not actually planning to ban anything you like so?



This is some kind of fash talk, surely.


----------



## Serge Forward (Mar 18, 2021)

Clair De Lune  I bet you are. It's a sneaky ploy from the anti offal and opera brigade


----------



## Raheem (Mar 18, 2021)

An





xenon said:


> What
> 
> I dislike substances with x properties.
> 
> ...


What "X properties" are you talking about? Liver, tripe and kidney are all different. Liking or not liking two of them doesn't tell you about the third.


----------



## Clair De Lune (Mar 18, 2021)

planetgeli said:


> I will advocate the banning of them if it winds up Raheem a bit more.


Ok...yeah fuck it. We're gonna ban them unless you can make a really convincing argument otherwise. But I fear they may be rather more comfortable telling others how to minimise their views than revealing their own full force of emotion or view on any subject.


----------



## 8ball (Mar 18, 2021)

xenon said:


> What
> 
> I dislike substances with x properties.
> 
> ...



This is extremely silly.

edit: I'll elaborate, mostly out of boredom...

Your reasoning is presumably thus:

I like animal muscle tissue
I have tried some kinds of animal non-muscle tissue.
I didn't like them.
Therefore animal non-muscle tissue is not for me.

Unless you view animals as being composed of muscle and "other generic stuff", this reasoning is clearly absurd.
Either your logic is broken, or your understanding of basic biology.


----------



## Raheem (Mar 18, 2021)

planetgeli said:


> I will advocate the banning of them if it winds up Raheem a bit more.


I'm not wound up. I like working-through bad analogies. And talking tripe.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 18, 2021)

Clair De Lune said:


> I don't high five anyone but have a cheery agreeable nod.


I have a cat who high fives me


----------



## Clair De Lune (Mar 18, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> I have a cat who high fives me


That I can live with. I also won't leave a kid hanging.


----------



## hitmouse (Mar 18, 2021)

What did you all think of Offal: The Musical? I wasn't a fan of the original, but the remake starring Julie Burchill has its moments.


----------



## Raheem (Mar 18, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> What did you all think of Offal: The Musical?



Sorry, but I've already used up the "tripe" joke for this thread.


----------



## krtek a houby (Mar 18, 2021)

Quite like a good musical.  Here's some 

Sunshine on Leith
The Book of Mormon
Once
The Commitments
The Wizard of Oz
The Sound of Music
Guava Island
London Road
Moulin Rouge


----------



## killer b (Mar 18, 2021)

Sunshine on Leith is fucking terrible man. Wtf


----------



## hitmouse (Mar 18, 2021)

The actual best musicals are Once More With Feeling and every episode of Crazy Ex-Girlfriend, btw.


----------



## Raheem (Mar 18, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> The Wizard of Oz


I'd forgotten about that one. I can now say without doubt or ambiguity that I do not hate all musicals.


----------



## 8ball (Mar 18, 2021)

Raheem said:


> I'd forgotten about that one. I can now say without doubt or ambiguity that I do not hate all musicals.



I remember loving it as a kid, but haven't watched it in over 4 decades.
Also loved the Jungle Book (which has been mentioned before and I don't know for sure whether it really qualifies as a musical).
Saw the Blues Brothers when I was about 40 - does that literally count as a musical?


----------



## killer b (Mar 18, 2021)

I watched Blood On Satan's Claw Knotted - it was OK. Could have done with a few musical numbers.


----------



## xenon (Mar 18, 2021)

Raheem said:


> An
> What "X properties" are you talking about? Liver, tripe and kidney are all different. Liking or not liking two of them doesn't tell you about the third.





8ball said:


> This is extremely silly.
> 
> edit: I'll elaborate, mostly out of boredom...
> 
> ...



You people are mad.

You have no category of thing you dislike until having sampled all forms of that category. 

Day 462, today diary it it is green mush type A492B/2, which can be found under some of the benches but only the wooden ones at the front of the park. 

mmm


----------



## 8ball (Mar 18, 2021)

xenon said:


> You people are mad.
> 
> You have no category of thing you dislike until having sampled all forms of that category.



It's do with understanding the limitations of categories.  Especially binary categories superimposed onto diverse sets.
You wouldn't say, "I don't like carrots, so I'm solely subsisting on alcoholic beverages from now on".


----------



## xenon (Mar 18, 2021)

8ball said:


> It's do with understanding the limitations of categories.  Especially binary categories superimposed onto diverse sets.
> You wouldn't say, "I don't like carrots, so I'm solely subsisting on alcoholic beverages from now on".



Musicals are a category though. Otherwise someone should tell IMDB their all wrong.


----------



## 8ball (Mar 18, 2021)

xenon said:


> Musicals are a category though. Otherwise someone should tell IMDB their all wrong.



I was talking about the offal thing - I've had a few. 

Though 'musicals' is a slightly leaky category.
The musical episode of _Buffy_ was amazing.


----------



## Clair De Lune (Mar 18, 2021)

8ball said:


> It's do with understanding the limitations of categories.  Especially binary categories superimposed onto diverse sets.
> You wouldn't say, "I don't like carrots, so I'm solely subsisting on alcoholic beverages from now on".


No, but you might say I'm gonna avoid carrots ta.


----------



## Clair De Lune (Mar 18, 2021)

8ball said:


> I was talking about the offal thing - I've had a few.
> 
> Though 'musicals' is a slightly leaky category.
> The musical episode of _Buffy_ was amazing.


A wet category but never making one moist. Ugh.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Mar 18, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> I have a cat who high fives me


Bet they love mewsicals


----------



## 8ball (Mar 18, 2021)

Clair De Lune said:


> No, but you might say I'm gonna avoid carrots ta.



Yeah, but not necessarily strawberries and chocolate and ice cream.


----------



## 8ball (Mar 18, 2021)

Clair De Lune said:


> A wet category but never making one moist. Ugh.



Ewww.


----------



## Clair De Lune (Mar 18, 2021)

8ball said:


> Yeah, but not necessarily strawberries and chocolate and ice cream.


Ok...wait you're gonna have to fill in n the gaps in your musical fruity sweet theory cos right now it's all going in the food waste bin.


----------



## Raheem (Mar 18, 2021)

I haven't heard all U2 songs, so I can't say for sure that I dislike all U2 songs. I can say that it's more likely than not that I do, and I can also say that I can't be arsed finding out.


----------



## Raheem (Mar 18, 2021)

DaveCinzano said:


> Bet they love mewsicals


And opurrur.


----------



## 8ball (Mar 18, 2021)

Raheem said:


> I haven't heard all U2 songs, so I can't say for sure that I dislike all U2 songs. I can say that it's more likely than not that I do, and I can also say that I can't be arsed finding out.



I've heard that from people who have then commented on liking a song before knowing it was a U2 song.
Although it's fair to say that it's reasonable not to seek them out on the off chance.


----------



## 8ball (Mar 18, 2021)

Clair De Lune said:


> Ok...wait you're gonna have to fill in n the gaps in your musical fruity sweet theory cos right now it's all going in the food waste bin.



I thought it was a fairly simple carrot vs. non-carrot deal.


----------



## Humberto (Mar 18, 2021)

Steak and kidney pies are ok in theory but usually/always shit.


----------



## 8ball (Mar 18, 2021)

Humberto said:


> Steak and kidney pies are ok in theory but usually/always shit.



I would normally pick a fight over this, but had a really disappointing one last week


----------



## Humberto (Mar 18, 2021)

I've been on the pukkas during lockdown


----------



## 8ball (Mar 18, 2021)

Humberto said:


> I've been on the pukkas during lockdown



It was a disappointing pukka that I was talking about.
(too long under the lights)


----------



## DaveCinzano (Mar 18, 2021)

Raheem said:


> And opurrur.


And feline dancing


----------



## kittyP (Mar 18, 2021)

I watched The Wizard of Oz pretty much every Saturday morning between the ages of 4 and 14, sometimes more than once and maybe Sunday too. 
My dad (reasonably) early adopted the VHS, taped stuff off the telly and taught me to use it so they could have a lie in. 
Just felt the need to share.


----------



## 8ball (Mar 19, 2021)

DaveCinzano said:


> And feline dancing



This is beginning to remind me of that guy who ate a bag of mushrooms and tried to watch the most recent re-working of CATS!

(he didn't have a good time, but his review of the experience is pure "peak internet")


----------



## Clair De Lune (Mar 19, 2021)

8ball said:


> This is beginning to remind me of that guy who ate a bag of mushrooms and tried to watch the most recent re-working of CATS!
> 
> (he didn't have a good time, but his review of the experience is pure "peak internet")


Oh god...that's me high watching Ian Curtis. Fuckin ell. Like I know, the world is fucked but your well spoken appraisal of the zeitgeist is now the literal narration of every depressive episode I endure. Ta.


----------



## 8ball (Mar 19, 2021)

Clair De Lune said:


> Oh god...that's me high watching Ian Curtis. Fuckin ell. Like I know, the world is fucked but your well spoken appraisal of the zeitgeist is now the literal narration of every depressive episode I endure. Ta.



I'm going to guess that you mean Adam Curtis.  (It works for Ian Curtis except for the accent reference)


----------



## Clair De Lune (Mar 19, 2021)

8ball said:


> I'm going to guess that you mean Adam Curtis.  (It works for Ian Curtis except for the accent reference)


I do indeed. I'm shite with names.


----------



## xenon (Mar 19, 2021)

8ball said:


> It was a disappointing pukka that I was talking about.
> (too long under the lights)



Too long under the lights, - sounds like a musical number.


----------



## xenon (Mar 19, 2021)

Quenton Letts sounds like Adam Curtis.

Well from a few feet away from the radio. True.


----------



## 8ball (Mar 19, 2021)

Clair De Lune said:


> I do indeed. I'm shite with names.



I've just stuck Joy Division on and aside from the dulcet tones you're def onto something.


----------



## Raheem (Mar 19, 2021)

xenon said:


> Quenton Letts sounds like Adam Curtis.
> 
> Well from a few feet away from the radio. True.


How does he sound if you squash him right up against the radio?


----------



## Humberto (Mar 19, 2021)

Ron Moody


----------



## DaveCinzano (Mar 19, 2021)

Raheem said:


> How does he sound if you squash him right up against the radio?


If you focus the squashing on specific areas, quite high pitched


----------



## xenon (Mar 19, 2021)

Raheem said:


> How does he sound if you squash him right up against the radio?



This would be an improvement TBF. Quenton wise.


----------



## Clair De Lune (Mar 19, 2021)

I hope you have me on ignore for being an awkward woman raheem 👍


----------



## Raheem (Mar 19, 2021)

Clair De Lune said:


> I hope you have me on ignore for being an awkward woman raheem 👍


If you've been trying to do awkward, I hadn't noticed.


----------



## Clair De Lune (Mar 19, 2021)

Raheem said:


> If you've been trying to do awkward, I hadn't noticed.


Gosh no. Just too awkward to answer apparently.


----------



## Serge Forward (Mar 19, 2021)

8ball said:


> I've just stuck Joy Division on and aside from the dulcet tones you're def onto something.


Sorry, I saw Joy Division twice, once as Warsaw and the other as JD (in front of an audience of about 15 people). The first time was tragedy, the second farce. I have to say, they were probably the worst band I've ever seen. But looking on the bright side, at least Birchall wasn't there


----------



## Serge Forward (Mar 19, 2021)

Where do people stand on Gilbert and Sullivan, by the way?


----------



## Humberto (Mar 19, 2021)

They'd break you on the wheel probly.


----------



## Sue (Mar 19, 2021)

P&P goes all knobbing and sobbing. 

Well maybe not strictly knobbing and sobbing but you know what I mean.


----------



## Combustible (Mar 19, 2021)

I was wondering the other day if there is a decent film version of threepenny opera (in English)


----------



## Raheem (Mar 19, 2021)

Clair De Lune said:


> Gosh no. Just too awkward to answer apparently.


Are you miffed because I didn't respond to one of your posts? I promise you it wasn't a deliberate snub. I was probably doing something else and the discussion moved on.


----------



## Raheem (Mar 19, 2021)

Combustible said:


> I was wondering the other day if there is a decent film version of threepenny opera (in English)


I don't know how decent or indecent it is, but









						Mack the Knife (1989 film) - Wikipedia
					






					en.m.wikipedia.org


----------



## ElizabethofYork (Mar 19, 2021)

Serge Forward said:


> Where do people stand on Gilbert and Sullivan, by the way?



I prefer Gilbert O'Sullivan


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 19, 2021)

Serge Forward said:


> Where do people stand on Gilbert and Sullivan, by the way?


In the graveyard of st john the evangelist, stanmore and st paul's respectively


----------



## chilango (Mar 19, 2021)

Talking of Ian Curtis...would _Control_ count as a musical?


----------



## Serge Forward (Mar 19, 2021)

Raheem said:


> I don't know how decent or indecent it is, but
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Bombed out on Rotten Tomatoes... I'm curious now.


----------



## Knotted (Mar 19, 2021)

killer b said:


> I watched Blood On Satan's Claw Knotted - it was OK. Could have done with a few musical numbers.



Cults need some good singalongs. It's part of the deal. Missing ingredient to Midsommar and Kill List as well.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 19, 2021)

Knotted said:


> Cults need some good singalongs. It's part of the deal. Missing ingredient to Midsommar and Kill List as well.


Midsommar was a big disappointment


----------



## Knotted (Mar 19, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Midsommar was a big disappointment



I have mixed feelings about it. It's interesting and spectacular but the Hårga were too weird and violent to be an attractive prospect. I'd rather be dancing round the Summer Isle maypole than the Hålsingland maypole. I think the Wicker Man is very interesting in that the protagonist is less likable than the antagonists and it's ultimately about the horror of the (fictional pagan) institution itself. For that reason the various lookalike films don't quite hold up to it. Also tunes.


----------



## hitmouse (Mar 19, 2021)

Sue said:


> P&P goes all knobbing and sobbing.


is this you pitching your idea for a new Gilbert & Sullivan-style musical?


----------



## Doodler (Mar 19, 2021)

Knotted said:


> II think the Wicker Man is very interesting in that the protagonist is less likable than the antagonists



Sgt Howie is a much better human being than his lying, murderous, superstitious, foreluck-tugging opponents.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 19, 2021)

Doodler said:


> Sgt Howie is a much better human being than his lying, murderous, superstitious, foreluck-tugging opponents.


I think you'll find the deeply christian howie's faith fails him whereas the beliefs of the islanders appears founded on demonstrable facts.


----------



## Doodler (Mar 19, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> I think you'll find the deeply christian howie's faith fails him whereas the beliefs of the islanders appears founded on demonstrable facts.



Yes well we'll see about that in Wicker Man 2: Presbyterian Payback.


----------



## Raheem (Mar 19, 2021)

Doodler said:


> Sgt Howie is a much better human being than his lying, murderous, superstitious, foreluck-tugging opponents.


Maybe, but he's not very likable. Can't help wondering if his colleagues on the mainland are in on it.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 19, 2021)

Doodler said:


> Yes well we'll see about that in Wicker Man 2: Presbyterian Payback.


It all ends happily (but not for the Xians) in wicker man 3: the thelemite triumph


----------



## Doodler (Mar 19, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> It all ends happily (but not for the Xians) in wicker man 3: the thelemite triumph



The Hebrides are already famed for having an Isle of Muck. They do not need one of Filth as well


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 19, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Midsommar was a big disappointment



Some interesting visuals. Too much obviously dodgy shit happening though, you don't get that escalating sense of wrongness at all they just show you a scene that screams 'these people are all insane' right in your face.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 19, 2021)

Doodler said:


> The Hebrides are already famed for having an Isle of Muck. They do not need one of Filth as well


----------



## ska invita (Mar 19, 2021)

Quality modern musical films

Hedwig and the Angry Inch
Hairspray - teh John Waters one
Dancer in the Dark - Bjork thing



Opera is painful to my ears, but then I went once and it was great


----------



## killer b (Mar 19, 2021)

Hedwig is GREAT, and both the Waters and the more recent Hairsprays are excellent.

I really enjoyed the film of Into The Woods, despite not much liking the stage show.


----------



## Knotted (Mar 19, 2021)

I think Midsommar deliberately wrong foots you. 



Spoiler



There's some really nasty stuff and some of it is very early on, but the tone of the film is positive and happy, with Danny finding a new community as part of a breakup and coming to terms with loss. This is all right but it's all wrong. It could have done with being more subtle in my opinion but at the same time a lot of reviewers see it primarily as a break up movie rather than a cult indoctrination so maybe it needed to be less subtle. A bigger beef I have with it, is that the side characters are utterly one dimensional, but I think the idea is that you are supposed to be taking a very specific Danny eye's view.

The Hårga are fascist btw.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 19, 2021)

Doodler said:


> The Hebrides are already famed for having an Isle of Muck. They do not need one of Filth as well


It would have been an island of filth if howie had managed to get help from his constabulary colleagues


----------



## killer b (Mar 19, 2021)

dunno if you guys are into Hebridean Psalm singing - it's apparently christian devotional music, but it sounds just like the kind of thing you might find yourself being sacrificed to the gods of the harvest to, should you wash up accidentally on their shores.


----------



## marty21 (Mar 19, 2021)

ElizabethofYork said:


> I prefer Gilbert O'Sullivan


Mrs21 mentioned him yesterday , she hates him,  and would definitely prefer Gilbert & Sullivan.


----------



## Sue (Mar 19, 2021)

killer b said:


> dunno if you guys are into Hebridean Psalm singing - it's apparently christian devotional music, but it sounds just like the kind of thing you might find yourself being sacrificed to the gods of the harvest to, should you wash up accidentally on their shores.



I bought the CD mentioned for my sister back in the summer (she loves the Outer Hebrides and is learning Gaelic at the moment). It's a fascinating subject.









						'A vertical connection to God': the euphoria of Gaelic psalm singing
					

The Gaelic language may be in steep decline, but a collaboration between the composer Craig Armstrong and traditional Hebridean singers hopes to keep a centuries-old style alive




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## two sheds (Mar 19, 2021)

That's lovely - Wall of Sound


----------



## killer b (Mar 19, 2021)

Sue said:


> I bought the CD mentioned for my sister back in the summer (she loves the Outer Hebrides and is learning Gaelic at the moment). It's a fascinating subject.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I love it - it has a similar feel to the Sacred Harp stuff from the states, but perhaps even more hairy and primeval.


----------



## Shechemite (Mar 19, 2021)

xenon said:


> Wicca man is not a musical. It’s a film with a lot of music in it. If it ha been a musical, I wouldn’t hav watched it I have, ergo.



Not even Les Mis?


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 19, 2021)

killer b said:


> dunno if you guys are into Hebridean Psalm singing - it's apparently christian devotional music, but it sounds just like the kind of thing you might find yourself being sacrificed to the gods of the harvest to, should you wash up accidentally on their shores.



Yeah, love it. I have two of the CDs in that very series also.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Mar 19, 2021)

.


----------



## Doodler (Mar 19, 2021)

Raheem said:


> Maybe, but he's not very likable. Can't help wondering if his colleagues on the mainland are in on it.



I like him. He wears pyjamas and sleeps in a proper bed with sheets and a blanket. You can keep your trendy 'continental quilts'.


----------



## Serge Forward (Mar 19, 2021)

Doodler said:


> Yes well we'll see about that in Wicker Man 2: Presbyterian Payback.


I prefer _Revenge of the Wee Frees_ as a title.


----------



## Raheem (Mar 19, 2021)

Doodler said:


> I like him. He wears pyjamas and sleeps in a proper bed with sheets and a blanket. You can keep your trendy 'continental quilts'.


No-one had a quilt in those days. Maybe James Bond, at a push.


----------



## Sue (Mar 19, 2021)

Serge Forward said:


> I prefer _Revenge of the Wee Frees_ as a title.


It'd be kinda like lockdown but less fun.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 19, 2021)

Serge Forward said:


> I prefer _Revenge of the Wee Frees_ as a title.


son of wicker manse


----------



## Yossarian (Mar 19, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> It all ends happily (but not for the Xians) in wicker man 3: the thelemite triumph



I thought the franchise started to lose its edge with Howie's return in 'Wicker 4 - the Holy Ghost Arises'


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 19, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> I thought the franchise started to lose its edge with Howie's return in 'Wicker 4 - the Holy Ghost Arises'


yeh when it became 'whicker man' all was lost


----------



## killer b (Mar 19, 2021)

Doodler said:


> I like him. He wears pyjamas and sleeps in a proper bed with sheets and a blanket. You can keep your trendy 'continental quilts'.


An apple pie bed means nothing to a modern child as a result of the encroachment of the continental quilt. The biggest loss of all IMO.


----------



## Sue (Mar 19, 2021)

(No-one's mentioned the Wee Wee Frees yet.)


----------



## marty21 (Mar 19, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh when it became 'whicker man' all was lost


I don't understand why they released that 3 days after Whicker 3


----------



## Raheem (Mar 19, 2021)

I never forgave him for selling out and doing adverts for Barclaycard.


----------



## xenon (Mar 19, 2021)

Sue said:


> (No-one's mentioned the Wee Wee Frees yet.)



do they sleep with incontinental quilts


----------



## Wilf (Mar 19, 2021)

This thread has become a mash up of Pseuds Corner and Mornington Crescent. I approve.


----------



## ska invita (Mar 19, 2021)

.


----------



## ska invita (Mar 19, 2021)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Not even Les Mis?



I was curious about Les Mis for years and finally saw the film a couple of years back. Seemed like a good production, the musical elements very proficient but a bit 80s in style, but above all I was deeply disappointed with the story line. (Spoilers)

Start with Marius the revolutionary, who at the end, after seeing all his comrades die, every last one, decides to move back in to his palatial home and settle down? What a sell out.

And then the love story...uff. The girl who's in love with him is amazing, she takes a beating for him and then takes a bullet for him. But no, he catches a glimpse of Cinderella across a busy road and falls deeply in love. How superficial can you get. Clearly it's the sight of her middle class trimmings that he connected with. Just the kind of girl to marry on his palatial estate.

All the prole characters, apart from cartoon no redeeming feature lumpens, die and it's happily ever after for prince Marius and his Cinderella dreaming of a cloud bride. What a shit story.

And rather than some kind of up the revolution message, the one political angle seemed to be be a good Christian and embrace the church.

Naff.


----------



## killer b (Mar 19, 2021)

I've never watched les mis, or listened to any of the songs but I've always assumed it's terrible based purely on the kind of people who were really into les mis when I was a teenager.


----------



## Sue (Mar 19, 2021)

ska invita said:


> I was curious about Les Mis for years and finally saw the film a couple of years back. Seemed like a good production, the musical elements very proficient but a bit 80s in style, but above all I was deeply disappointed with the story line. (Spoilers)
> 
> Start with Marius the revolutionary, who after seeing all his comrades die, every last one, decides to move back in to his palatial home and settle down? What a sell out.
> 
> ...


The book's better.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 19, 2021)

Sue said:


> The book's better.


So often the case


----------



## Sue (Mar 19, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> So often the case


There's also a whole load of stuff about being a cloistered nun and not brushing your teeth IIRC   that I found fascinating as a teenager.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 19, 2021)

killer b said:


> I've never watched les mis, or listened to any of the songs but I've always assumed it's terrible based purely on the kind of people who were really into les mis when I was a teenager.


Nor have I. The only song from it I know of is I Dreamed A Dream, which I only heard because Susan Boyle did it in that audition that was everywhere. I didn’t even know it was from Les Mis until the film came out and I was able to put two and two together.

When the film came out was the first I knew there was a musical of the book.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 19, 2021)

Sue said:


> The book's better.


I only know the book.


----------



## Wilf (Mar 19, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> So often the case


Dan Brown? It's a close run thing, race to the bottom.


----------



## Shechemite (Mar 19, 2021)

killer b said:


> I've never watched les mis, or listened to any of the songs but I've always assumed it's terrible based purely on the kind of people who were really into les mis when I was a teenager.



I was into Les mis as a teenager


----------



## killer b (Mar 19, 2021)

MadeInBedlam said:


> I was into Les mis as a teenager


I'm sorry for your troubles. It must have been hard.


----------



## Clair De Lune (Mar 19, 2021)

Raheem said:


> Are you miffed because I didn't respond to one of your posts? I promise you it wasn't a deliberate snub. I was probably doing something else and the discussion moved on.


My sincere apologies raheem, I was not feeling myself yesterday and then I added alcohol. I behaved strangely and badly and feel ashamed. I don't know what I was on about I was spiky I think cos I don't like being told what to do


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 19, 2021)

Clair De Lune said:


> My sincere apologies raheem, I was not feeling myself yesterday and then I added alcohol. I behaved strangely and badly and feel ashamed. I don't know what I was on about I was spiky I think cos I don't like being told what to do


never apologise
never explain


----------



## Raheem (Mar 19, 2021)

Clair De Lune said:


> My sincere apologies raheem, I was not feeling myself yesterday and then I added alcohol. I behaved strangely and badly and feel ashamed. I don't know what I was on about I was spiky I think cos I don't like being told what to do


Whatever it was, it's forgotten. The internet gets wiped clean every morning, doesn't it?


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 19, 2021)

Raheem said:


> Whatever it was, it's forgotten. The internet gets wiped clean every morning, doesn't it?


not here it doesn't where we bring up the slightest slight from a decade ago at the least provocation


----------



## Clair De Lune (Mar 19, 2021)

Raheem said:


> Whatever it was, it's forgotten. The internet gets wiped clean every morning, doesn't it?


Thank you


----------



## DaveCinzano (Mar 19, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> not here it doesn't where we bring up the slightest slight from a decade ago at the least provocation


And every Friday afternoon one of us is picked to take The Files home for the weekend, like the classroom hamster in primary school


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 19, 2021)

DaveCinzano said:


> And every Friday afternoon one of us is picked to take The Files home for the weekend, like the classroom hamster in primary school


this time it's Spymaster's turn and he'd better not leave them on the bus like last month


----------



## Clair De Lune (Mar 19, 2021)

Kinda funny I behaved badly and had to apologise on this thread. The hangxiety I had this morning made me feel I was as bad as Burchil honestly


----------



## killer b (Mar 19, 2021)

gracious, if we all started apologising for that level of bad behaviour the board would be 80% apologies.


----------



## hitmouse (Mar 19, 2021)

Clair De Lune said:


> I don't know what I was on about


Shocking behaviour in this thread, where all the other posts have been so coherent and on-topic.


----------



## tim (Mar 19, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> never apologise
> never explain


An appropriately Burchillesqe approach to life


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 19, 2021)

tim said:


> An appropriately Burchillesqe approach to life


----------



## tim (Mar 19, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> View attachment 259377


Whatever his faults I hope the Duke never felt called to apologise for this.
__


----------



## Knotted (Mar 19, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> View attachment 259377



What not even for this?


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 19, 2021)

Knotted said:


> What not even for this?
> 
> View attachment 259385


That was a sign no doubt of a cash flow issue


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 20, 2021)

ska invita said:


> - someone with the same skin colour and ethnic heritage may play cricket and vote tory and laugh along with racist comments they occasionally experience and not experience the hostility of a practicing muslim who has a beard and wears robes to mosque, for example.



Every POC of course, should run around like your girlfriend, searching for reasons to play the race card at the drop of a hat. That's far more helpful.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 20, 2021)

ska invita said:


> muslims are a minority in the UK and experience discrimination in a variety of ways here, potentially including by military intervention of ancestral homelands depending on heritage. yes skin colour is a key defining factor, but skin colour as a factor intersects with many other variables - someone with the same skin colour and ethnic heritage may play cricket and vote tory and laugh along with racist comments they occasionally experience and not experience the hostility of a practicing muslim who has a beard and wears robes to mosque, for example.
> 
> Of course Islam shouldnt be left off the hook, thats what i was saying. I was making the point that a bit of sensitivity is needed so its not misconstrued as part of all the other oppressive attacks muslims might experience here in blighty.


Military intervention of ancestral homelands a strange phrase. Does it mean UK residents of saudi heritage experience discrimination when sa invades say Yemen? Did you mean in instead?


----------



## Flavour (Mar 20, 2021)

Probably very late on this but the wicker man is not a musical


----------



## Shechemite (Mar 20, 2021)

Ancestral homelands is what the white nationalist nutter on LBC was banging on about to starmer.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Mar 20, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Every POC of course, should run around like your girlfriend, searching for reasons to play the race card at the drop of a hat. That's far more helpful.



I have reported this post. You need to keep my fucking life and relationships out of your vile mouth. Your obsession with attacking me is beyond what is reasonable. I care about racism. I don't see it everywhere nor do I go looking for it. Just when I thought I couldn't dislike you any more you remind me what a vicious and nasty piece of work you can be. I am sick of it. Well done attention achieved. Gold star for you.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Mar 20, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh when it became 'whicker man' all was lost


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 20, 2021)

Rutita1 said:


> I have reported this post. You need to keep my fucking life and relationships out of you vile mouth. Your obsession with attacking me is beyond what is reasonable. I care about racism. I don't see it everywhere nor do I go looking for it. Just when I thought I couldn't dislike you any more you remind me what a vicious and nasty piece of work you can be. I am sick of it. Well done attention achieved. Gold star for you.


You need to sort Ska out then. If he keeps making his little digs regarding disagreements you and I have had I'm going to respond.


----------



## krtek a houby (Mar 20, 2021)




----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 20, 2021)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Ancestral homelands is what the white nationalist nutter on LBC was banging on about to starmer.


This obscures as much as it illuminates


----------



## Treacle Toes (Mar 20, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> You need to sort Ska out then. If he keeps making his little digs regarding disagreements you and I have had I'm going to respond.



The world, people thoughts and opinions don't evolve around you.



Spoiler: Nothing to do with you












						Julie Burchill forced to apologise for twitter comments , and pay out a fat wedge .
					

Ever been searched at an airport?  Yes, and in the street, and at gunpoint. Not a Muslim, though.




					www.urban75.net


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 20, 2021)

Rutita1 said:


> The world, people thoughts and opinions don't evolve around you.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Oh fuck off. It's happened loads of times. You know _exactly_ what he was referring to. Don't fucking lie. 

If it happens again you'll get a similar response.


----------



## redsquirrel (Mar 20, 2021)

killer b said:


> I watched Blood On Satan's Claw Knotted - it was OK. Could have done with a few musical numbers.


Melbourne Cinematheque did a couple of British horror mini-seasons, you've probably already seen a lot of these, but just in case

OLD, WEIRD ALBION: BRITISH SUPERNATURAL AND GOTHIC HORROR CINEMA FROM THE 1950s TO 1970s
Drawing upon a folkloric tradition with roots stretching back to before the Roman invasion, Britain has a rich heritage of supernatural tales. In cinema, this has translated to a powerful if eclectic body of work exploring the idea that something older, and undoubtedly malevolent, lies just below the modern surface (often literally, in an archaeological sense).
Once disturbed, these weird, unfettered forces will manifest as a direct threat to the precarious rationalism of our era’s disconnection from the natural world, folk traditions and the elemental fears of death and the afterlife. With the exception of Michael Reeves’ Witchfinder General, chronicling the brutal activities of a witch-hunter – played by Vincent Price – during the Cromwell era, the films chosen for this season follow in the tradition of the ghost stories of M. R. James (whose short story “Casting the Runes” forms the basis of the earliest film in our season, Jacques Tourneur’s extraordinary Night of the Demon), forsaking historical settings to reveal terror erupting amongst contemporary communities. This season – a sequel to our 2018 focus on British psychological horror – explores an atmospheric but similarly psychologically motivated legacy of eerie cinema. From Jack Clayton’s masterful and influential adaptation of Henry James’ The Turn of the Screw, The Innocents, onwards to The Wicker Man’s terrifying encounter between the old, pagan Britain and the veneer of modern Christianity that replaced it, this is a season promising lashings of cinematic strangeness, dread and unease.

THE HAUNTING Robert Wise (1963) 111 mins – PG
THE INNOCENTS Jack Clayton (1961) 100 mins – M
THE WICKER MAN: THE FINAL CUT Robin Hardy (1973) 94 mins – M
WITCHFINDER GENERAL Michael Reeves (1968) 86 mins – R 18+
NIGHT OF THE DEMON Jacques Tourneur (1957) 95 mins – PG
NIGHT OF THE EAGLE Sidney Hayers (1962) 90 mins – PG

TWISTED NERVE: BRITISH PSYCHOLOGICAL HORROR OF THE 1960s AND 1970s
Although the British horror genre is often defined by the rich legacies of gothic literature, Shakespeare, Bram Stoker, Mary Shelley, the ghost stories
of M. R. James, the films of Hammer and a range of other influences and precedents, there is also a rich vein of “psychological horror” that emerged in late 1950s British cinema and betrays the impact of Freudian and Lacanian psychoanalysis, the fractured post-war psyche, the reportage of true-crime mass and serial murders, shifts in censorship, and the arrival in the UK’s rapidly changing film industry of European and American directors such as Roman Polanski, Richard Fleischer and Wolf Rilla. This season focuses on a range of the most provocative, potent and obsessive of these films, exploring the dark and disturbed psychology and psychosis of modern British society. It opens with one of the most notorious and influential works of the subgenre, Michael Powell’s profoundly cinematic, deeply personal and patently disturbed Peeping Tom, a film that met with outrage and derision on its initial release. The film’s portrait of the damaged, murderous and poetic psyche of its lead protagonist, a focus puller working in the British studio system, provides a point of comparison and contrast with the other movies included in this season – such as Nicolas Roeg’s extraordinary Don’t Look Now and Fleischer’s truly chilling portrait of serial killer John Christie, 10 Rillington Place – and its focus on the impact of trauma, environment, sexuality and tradition on an increasingly cracked national consciousness. These films also reflect a deeper tradition of British horror literature, ranging from cryptographer Leo Marks’ original script for Peeping Tom to seminal mid-century writers such as Daphne du Maurier and John Wyndham.

PEEPING TOM, MICHAEL POWELL (1960) 101 MINS – M
10 RILLINGTON PLACE, RICHARD FLEISCHER (1971) 106 MINS – M
VILLAGE OF THE DAMNED WOLF RILLA (1960) 77 MINS – PG
SYMPTOMS JOSÉ RAMÓN LARRAZ (1974) 92 MINS – M
DON’T LOOK NOW NICOLAS ROEG (1973) 110 MINS – M
REPULSION ROMAN POLANSKI (1965) 105 MINS – M
(EDIT: Should have followed the old rule of reading to the end of a thread before posting, last page makes this post very out of place.)


----------



## Shechemite (Mar 20, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> This obscures as much as it illuminates



My post, or the shared preoccupation with ‘ancestral homelands’ that is to be found on the far right, sections of the left and ‘anti racism’ activists, pro-Israel politics etc


----------



## Shechemite (Mar 20, 2021)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Robin Hood built East Midlands Airport?



You won’t read it in the MSM


----------



## killer b (Mar 20, 2021)

redsquirrel said:


> (EDIT: Should have followed the old rule of reading to the end of a thread before posting, last page makes this post very out of place.)


Its all good - someone's got to keep the thread on topic


----------



## Sue (Mar 20, 2021)

Anyway, just noticed Meet Me in St Louis is currently halfway through on BBC2 and Kiss Me Kate is on tomorrow afternoon.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 20, 2021)

redsquirrel said:


> Melbourne Cinematheque did a couple of British horror mini-seasons, you've probably already seen a lot of these, but just in case
> 
> OLD, WEIRD ALBION: BRITISH SUPERNATURAL AND GOTHIC HORROR CINEMA FROM THE 1950s TO 1970s
> Drawing upon a folkloric tradition with roots stretching back to before the Roman invasion, Britain has a rich heritage of supernatural tales. In cinema, this has translated to a powerful if eclectic body of work exploring the idea that something older, and undoubtedly malevolent, lies just below the modern surface (often literally, in an archaeological sense).
> ...


astonished no 'the devil rides out' in your lists

also the 1950s seems rather late for the impact of freudian psychoanalysis and rather early for lacan, who wasn't translated into english until the 1960s


----------



## editor (Mar 20, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Every POC of course, should run around like your girlfriend, searching for reasons to play the race card at the drop of a hat. That's far more helpful.


*mod mode 

Why are you bringing up personal stuff here? It's out of order and if you persist you will be banned.

Update: you're now banned off this thread for a week.


----------



## Dystopiary (Mar 20, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Once More With Feeling


I'd been biting my tongue up until now! I love it.


----------



## Santino (Mar 21, 2021)

This shit on ITV is what gives musicals a bad name.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 21, 2021)

Santino said:


> This shit on ITV is what gives musicals a bad name.


It's musicals being shit that gives the form a bad name


----------



## kabbes (Mar 21, 2021)

Is a musical film the same as a film musical?


----------



## krtek a houby (Mar 21, 2021)

Almost forgot

Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory
Chitty Chitty Bang Bang


----------



## Dystopiary (Mar 21, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> Chitty Chitty Bang Bang


----------



## existentialist (Mar 22, 2021)

tim said:


> _"Julie!" _would definitely be a Lloyd-Webber vehicle;_ "A funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Urban Forum."_ would be a Sondheim work.


In D flat. Sondheim liked D flat a lot more than his musicians did.


----------



## existentialist (Mar 22, 2021)

Clair De Lune said:


> I once had to endure a live performance of Michael Jackson the musical with my kids nan. I swear the audience consisted of middle aged women getting off on young black men thrusting a lot. Very peculiar indeed.
> 
> The only good musical is the blues brothers. Everything else is just a painful wank to nowhere. Every time I mention I don't like musicals someone recommends me one   Why do that?? Can't people just accept that not everyone likes the same shit as them?


I'd never even thought of Blues Brothers as a musical...

I'm not a huge fan of musicals, to listen to, but I've played and sang in a few, and quite enjoy them from that perspective. I do have a soft spot for Les Miserables, which is a "sung through" musical...


----------



## kabbes (Mar 22, 2021)

It seems an obvious point but so often doesn’t get said that musicals rather live and die by the quality of their music.

I can’t stand the Andrew Lloyd Webber or Broadway style of music that is full of suspended chords whilst the performers drone out half-spoken, half-sung lines with little melody.

But I love musicals that have... wait for it... music I love!  West Side Story, for instance.  Amazingly good.


----------



## existentialist (Mar 22, 2021)

kabbes said:


> It seems an obvious point but so often doesn’t get said that musicals rather live and die by the quality of their music.
> 
> I can’t stand the Andrew Lloyd Webber or Broadway style of music that is full of suspended chords whilst the performers drone out half-spoken, half-sung lines with little melody.
> 
> But I love musicals that have... wait for it... music I love!  West Side Story, for instance.  Amazingly good.


Leonard Bernstein - a proper composer!


----------



## krtek a houby (Mar 22, 2021)

How long before "Covid - The Musical"?


----------



## Serge Forward (Mar 22, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> How long before "Covid - The Musical"?


"My corona," to the tune of My Sharona by the Knack.


----------



## T & P (Mar 22, 2021)

"Covid's in the air".


----------



## krtek a houby (Mar 22, 2021)

Serge Forward said:


> "My corona," to the tune of My Sharona by the Knack.



Or...

Gimme Gimme Gimme a Mask After Midnight


----------



## Serge Forward (Mar 22, 2021)

If it's a Lloyd Webber musical, it'd probably be called something like "Breathe!" or "Cough!"


----------



## Yossarian (Mar 22, 2021)

T & P said:


> "Covid's in the air".



A chorus of BioNTech researchers singing "How do you solve a problem like corona?"


----------



## DaveCinzano (Mar 22, 2021)

Or that rollicking rock-'n'-roll rollercoaster _Return To The Forbidden Plan To Kill Off All The Old People_


----------



## Raheem (Mar 22, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> Or...
> 
> Gimme Gimme Gimme a Mask After Midnight


Love Will Tear Us a Safe Distance Apart


----------



## Voley (Mar 22, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> The first two Godfathers are among my favourite films. I regularly rewatch them.  But I quite agree, Citizen Kane is a yawnfest. Beautifully lit, but dull dull dull.


Watched both Godfathers on consecutive nights recently and they were still both brilliant. I've been negotiating with banks recently and I had this in my mind throughout:



I've not got round to Citizen Kane yet.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 22, 2021)

let's not break the law


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 22, 2021)

Voley said:


> Watched both Godfathers on consecutive nights recently and they were still both brilliant. I've been negotiating with banks recently and I had this in my mind throughout:
> 
> View attachment 259839
> 
> I've not got round to Citizen Kane yet.


Yeah, I do tend to become a bit ...  non-negotiable after watching it!


----------



## fucthest8 (Mar 22, 2021)

Serge Forward said:


> "My corona," to the tune of My Sharona by the Knack.



Jan 2020 called 



fucthest8 said:


> Ooh, my little pretty one, my pretty one
> When you gonna give me some time, Corona
> Ooh, you make my nose run, my nose run
> Gonna need a fluid IV line, Corona
> ...


----------



## DaveCinzano (Mar 22, 2021)

fucthest8 said:


> Jan 2020 called


Old people and their nostalgia


----------



## fucthest8 (Mar 22, 2021)

DaveCinzano said:


> Old people and their nostalgia






DaveCinzano said:


> It was pretty hokey back in 1999 at the Euston N30 ... <snip>



Settle down grandad


----------



## DaveCinzano (Mar 22, 2021)

fucthest8 said:


> Settle down grandad


Ooooooop and so student becomes master!

Well played, Methuselah, well played


----------



## hitmouse (Mar 22, 2021)

Voley said:


> I've not got round to Citizen Kane yet.


Since this is, among other things, the Citizen Kane thread, I may as well mention here that my mate's just said they're watching Coronation Street and then watching Citizen Kane in brief snippets during the ad breaks. I wish I could somehow tell Orson Welles this to see the look on his face.


----------



## eatmorecheese (Mar 22, 2021)

American Pie.

February made me shiver
With every jab that they delivered
Hancock on the doorstep
I couldn't take one more step

Etc.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 22, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Since this is, among other things, the Citizen Kane thread, I may as well mention here that my mate's just said they're watching Coronation Street and then watching Citizen Kane in brief snippets during the ad breaks. I wish I could somehow tell Orson Welles this to see the look on his face.


He'd probably find it funny. This is the man who made Other Side Of The Wind, after all, a film that only really makes any sense in ad break sized snippets.


----------



## tim (Mar 23, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Since this is, among other things, the Citizen Kane thread, I may as well mention here that my mate's just said they're watching Coronation Street and then watching Citizen Kane in brief snippets during the ad breaks. I wish I could somehow tell Orson Welles this to see the look on his face.



My father once trod on Orson's toes (literally not figuratively) as my father was the heavier of the two, which was no mean feat, I'd have liked to have seen the look on Orson's face that day.. I think that is the nearest anyone in my immediate family has ever got to fame.


----------



## Santino (Mar 25, 2021)

It's the Feast of the Annunciation, people who were arguing about Mary's pregnancy.


----------



## JimW (Mar 25, 2021)

The Holy Family Gender Reveal Party falls in November, thought it's later in the Orthodox calendar.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 25, 2021)

Santino said:


> It's the Feast of the Annunciation, people who were arguing about Mary's pregnancy.


I thought it was the Feast of the Assumption.


----------



## fishfinger (Mar 25, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> I thought it was the Feast of the Assumption.


The feast of the consumption has bigger portions though.


----------



## kabbes (Mar 25, 2021)

fishfinger said:


> The feast of the consumption has bigger portions though.


Although don’t look too closely at the napkins


----------



## Raheem (Mar 25, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> I thought it was the Feast of the Assumption.


Assume nothing.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 25, 2021)

Raheem said:


> Assume nothing.


That’s. The. Joke.


----------



## fishfinger (Mar 25, 2021)

kabbes said:


> Although don’t look too closely at the napkins


Just when I thought everyone had a BCG. Damn antivaxxers!


----------



## Funky_monks (Mar 25, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> or maybe not. Criticism of Muhammad no one knows.


All compounded by him being a fictional character. PBUH etc


----------



## Funky_monks (Mar 25, 2021)

PaulOK said:


> How so? Who on the Left gives her stick? I think she is pretty solid politically and I am surprised anyone on the Left would have a go at her. All the Novara crew are good. I enjoy their writings and media appearances. Like Owen Jones, they are an important Left voice.



You're new in this village, aren't you?


----------



## kittyP (Mar 31, 2021)

I just watched a video with Ash Sarkar discussing David Lammy dealing with a racist caller on LBC saying that "you can be Black British but you can't be English" 
Sarkar said "Only a country like England could have produced someone as obnoxious as me"  
I do like the cut of her jib  

Sorry to be back on topic


----------



## PaulOK (Apr 1, 2021)

Funky_monks said:


> You're new in this village, aren't you?


I dip in and out every 5 years or so.


----------



## hitmouse (Apr 6, 2021)

Bumping the Wicker Man thread (and it is also Novara-related, no Sarkar though) to mention that there's a new ACFM episode on the politics of folk: #ACFM Trip 15: Folk | Novara Media I notice Wicker Man is listed in the shownotes, haven't listened to the full thing yet so dunno where they stand on the "is it a musical?" issue though.


----------



## Knotted (Apr 7, 2021)

The music at the beginning of that is from Adrian Uttley and Will Gregory's soundtrack to the film Arcadia. One of my favourite films in recent years. Collection of old footage of the countryside imbued with a subtle sense subversion and impending doom. Some of the footage is insane. It classifies itself as folk horror, although it's not fiction and lacks an explicit narrative.


----------



## Knotted (Apr 7, 2021)

Curious perspective on the Incredible String Band there. They're obviously very hippy and very "acid". But were they particularly pastoral for a British (of course they were Scottish not English) band though? Comparing them to US folk singers like Dylan, Oakes etc. is just not understanding the tradition they're from. Also wish they hadn't played the Hedgehog song, not that it isn't brilliant but it does lend the impression that they were twee and trivial. And yes they could be very twee, but they were making this insanely harmonically and melodically complex music that synthesised everything that was going on in British jazz and folk clubs.

Wish there had been a nod to guitarists such as Bert Jansch and Davey Graham and also to singers such as Anne Briggs and Shirley Collins, and the teaming British folk tradition of the 60's and 70's that they rested upon. Of course Collins was a card carrying Communist as well as a very important figure on the folk scene. I do recommend the documentary Ballad of Shirley Collins to anyone interested (if you can track it down).


----------



## Knotted (Apr 7, 2021)

Folk horror is probably my favourite subgenre of film. But at same time I don't know what it is. Mark Gatiss coined the term if I'm not mistaken, not too long ago and his three classic examples are The Witchfinder General, The Blood on Satan's Claw and The Wicker Man. But I don't see much in common between the first and last of those. The Wicker Man isn't much of an open countryside film and The Witchfinder General isn't much of a wyrd folke cult film - it's a fairly straightforward brutal bad guy and vengeful hero type film.

Discussion point - is Wolf Creek an Ausie version of folk horror?


----------



## two sheds (Apr 7, 2021)

Knotted said:


> Curious perspective on the Incredible String Band there. They're obviously very hippy and very "acid". But were they particularly pastoral for a British (of course they were Scottish not English) band though? Comparing them to US folk singers like Dylan, Oakes etc. is just not understanding the tradition they're from. Also wish they hadn't played the Hedgehog song, not that it isn't brilliant but it does lend the impression that they were twee and trivial. And yes they could be very twee, but they were making this insanely harmonically and melodically complex music that synthesised everything that was going on in British jazz and folk clubs.
> 
> Wish there had been a nod to guitarists such as Bert Jansch and Davey Graham and also to singers such as Anne Briggs and Shirley Collins, and the teaming British folk tradition of the 60's and 70's that they rested upon. Of course Collins was a card carrying Communist as well as a very important figure on the folk scene. I do recommend the documentary Ballad of Shirley Collins to anyone interested (if you can track it down).



ISB also very scientologist, after 1968 got more and more involved and used to leave copies of Dianetics Modern Science of Mental Health on the seats of their concerts as I recall. Which is about as far from hippy and acid as you can gte. Did love some of their early music though, and Williamson and Heron aren't scientologists any more  .


----------



## Knotted (Apr 7, 2021)

If I remember correctly they became scientologists after the recording but before the release of Wee Tam and the Big Huge, which is also their last really great album. I've heard that the Changing Horses album is all about Dianetics, though I'm not sure how.


----------



## two sheds (Apr 7, 2021)

Yes early stuff was uncontaminated  Will take a look at Changing Horses lyrics if I can find them.

Eta: nothing on any of those tracks that suggest scientology apart from the word 'clear' a couple of times but hardly explicit.


----------



## Knotted (Apr 7, 2021)

I've recently been listening to Clive (Palmer)'s Original Band's (known as C.O.B.) album Spirit of Love. Very hippyish but well worth a listen and free of scientology.


----------



## 8ball (Apr 7, 2021)

Knotted said:


> Discussion point - is Wolf Creek an Ausie version of folk horror?



I think it strains the definition.

If that’s allowed then _Duel_ is definitely in there too.


----------



## two sheds (Apr 7, 2021)

Knotted said:


> I've recently been listening to Clive (Palmer)'s Original Band's (known as C.O.B.) album Spirit of Love. Very hippyish but ...



you say that as if it was a bad thing  

but ta have bookmarked it will give it a listen


----------



## Knotted (Apr 7, 2021)

8ball said:


> I think it strains the definition.
> 
> If that’s allowed then _Duel_ is definitely in there too.



That's the thing, I don't have a definition. It's rural - a farmer in the outback even though that's very different to English countryside, it's part of modern Australian folklore (backpackers do go missing) and the landscape is very much part of the story as well themes of isolation.

Duel's pushing it a bit further I think. But I might allow Texas Chainsaw Massacre.


----------



## Orang Utan (Apr 7, 2021)

Have you ever listened to Moon Wiring Club, Knotted ?


----------



## Knotted (Apr 7, 2021)

No I haven't.


----------



## Knotted (Apr 7, 2021)

Am now though.


----------



## Orang Utan (Apr 7, 2021)

Knotted said:


> No I haven't.











						Podcast 138 - Moon Wiring Club - The Bleep43 Podcast -
					

Take a trip to Clinkskell with the vivid imagination of Moon Wiring Club this week.   TRACKLIST...




					www.bleep43.com
				



Similar sort of folk horror vibe but with samples and electronics instead


----------



## 8ball (Apr 7, 2021)

Knotted said:


> That's the thing, I don't have a definition. It's rural - a farmer in the outback even though that's very different to English countryside, it's part of modern Australian folklore (backpackers do go missing) and the landscape is very much part of the story as well themes of isolation.



I was pointing to the fact that they’re both “one lone mad guy” films too.  Not sure that gels with what I have in mind (which is also a bit vague and impressionistic).


----------



## Knotted (Apr 7, 2021)

Youtube keeps recommending me this version of Empty Pocket Blues. It's from 1970 so well into their scientology phase, but it shows that musically they were still on top form when they wanted to be. Rose and Licorice's naïve singing with Robin and Mike harmonising in completely different ways both both on guitar and vocals (both both - 2x2 that's four different ways). All on the edge of jangly mess but it all makes sense and they're belting it out looking like they're having the time of their lives. I've been singing this song all lockdown.

Edit: Of course that's an appropriate song if you've just seen the fees from your dianetics sessions.


----------



## hitmouse (Apr 7, 2021)

8ball said:


> I was pointing to the fact that they’re both “one lone mad guy” films too.  Not sure that gels with what I have in mind (which is also a bit vague and impressionistic).


Something to do with like traditions? I mean, idk what folk horror really is beyond Wicker Man, which I've seen, and Midsommar, which I haven't. But I think they're both to do with like traditions and that, right?


----------



## Knotted (Apr 8, 2021)

Yes Midsommar even more than Wicker Man if anything. I think folk horror often means "films that are roughly inspired by or similar to the Wicker Man". So Midsommar, Children of the Corn, Black Death, Kill List etc.. So rural cults, rituals, human sacrifice and entrapment. But that doesn't cover films like A Field in England, The Witch or indeed The Witchfinder General.

Edit: I suppose a unifying factor is that they are all mainly outdoors and mainly daylight (ramped up to 11 in Midsommar). The terror is hiding in plain sight and the films are about building an oppressive atmosphere.


----------



## hitmouse (Apr 8, 2021)

Knotted said:


> Yes Midsommar even more than Wicker Man if anything. I think folk horror often means "films that are roughly inspired by or similar to the Wicker Man". So Midsommar, Children of the Corn, Black Death, Kill List etc.. So rural cults, rituals, human sacrifice and entrapment. But that doesn't cover films like A Field in England, The Witch or indeed The Witchfinder General.
> 
> Edit: I suppose a unifying factor is that they are all mainly outdoors and mainly daylight (ramped up to 11 in Midsommar). The terror is hiding in plain sight and the films are about building an oppressive atmosphere.


Have you seen And Soon The Darkness? I remember that as being a really effective example of outdoors/daylight/pastoral horror. Might be a bit uncomfortable watching it in light of recent events, though. I've only seen the original, no idea how the remake compares.


----------



## Knotted (Apr 8, 2021)

No, don't know that one. But I've found an article about it locating it as pre-Wicker Man and Texas Chainsaw Massacre daylight horror.

Is this one of the great lesser-known location-based horrors? (lwlies.com)


----------



## killer b (Apr 16, 2021)

This twitter thread collects some choice paragraphs from Burchill's book  _Unchosen: The Memoirs of a Philo-Semite_ and oh my goodness. Click through for the full horror.


----------



## ska invita (Apr 16, 2021)

"Riotous ... currently my on-tour bedside companion" (Bryan Ferry _Daily Mail_)

"A joy to behold. Burchill knows no fear. I would man the barricades with her any day…any Jew who feels anxious in these days of palpable anti-semitism ought to read this book. It’s funny, and we all need a laugh. But more importantly, it’s a timely reminder that no, my friends, you do not walk alone" (Monica Porter _Jewish Chronicle_)


----------



## killer b (Apr 16, 2021)

"the bizarre spectacle of an intelligent woman who had spent her entire adult life making herself more stupid; this process has now reached its inevitable conclusion, and she has become to all intents and purposes moronic." (Will Self, _The Guardian_)


----------



## Brainaddict (Apr 16, 2021)

killer b said:


> This twitter thread collects some choice paragraphs from Burchill's book  _Unchosen: The Memoirs of a Philo-Semite_ and oh my goodness. Click through for the full horror.



Wow, that is worse than I expected and my expectations were low. Cancel culture has not gone far enough my friends. Not nearly far enough. That book should have got her cancelled years ago and yet here we are still having to hear about her shit opinions.


----------



## hitmouse (Apr 16, 2021)

killer b said:


> This twitter thread collects some choice paragraphs from Burchill's book  _Unchosen: The Memoirs of a Philo-Semite_ and oh my goodness. Click through for the full horror.



Oh my days. I absolutely fucking lost it at this one:


I know saying "satire is dead" is a bit of a cliche and that, but I genuinely can't imagine how anyone could write a parody of Julie Burchill that'd be funnier than the real thing.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 16, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Oh my days. I absolutely fucking lost it at this one:
> View attachment 263533
> 
> I know saying "satire is dead" is a bit of a cliche and that, but I genuinely can't imagine how anyone could write a parody of Julie Burchill that'd be funnier than the real thing.


no, she cannot be outdone


----------



## hitmouse (Apr 16, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> no, she cannot be outdone


Can she be done in?


----------



## Storm Fox (Apr 16, 2021)

Even with the anti-Semitic and racist sections, it still reads like a poorly written Glenda Slagg column


----------



## hitmouse (Apr 16, 2021)

Good lord, there's more: What did this lesbian rabbi do to make Julie Burchill mad?



> Rabbi Elli Tikvah Sarah had been warned that welcoming one of Britain’s most controversial writers into her synagogue might have its pitfalls.
> 
> But when Julie Burchill, who lists “spite” among her hobbies, showed an interest in the Brighton and Hove Progressive Synagogue in spring 2009, the rabbi was keen to give her a chance. “I thought she was a very good writer and I knew she was interested in Jews,” Rabbi Sarah recalls. “I also knew that she was a bit of a loose cannon but… we don’t try to label people.”
> 
> ...


Loving Judaism so much that you want to convert but then give up on the idea because actual Jews don't hate Muslims enough is... quite something.


----------



## brogdale (Apr 16, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Good lord, there's more: What did this lesbian rabbi do to make Julie Burchill mad?
> 
> 
> Loving Judaism so much that you want to convert but then give up on the idea because actual Jews don't hate Muslims enough is... quite something.


Wrong sort of Jew, obvs.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 16, 2021)

A small mercy. I just looked up Unchosen and it is already out of print. So it largely lived up to its name.


----------



## killer b (Apr 16, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> A small mercy. I just looked up Unchosen and it is already out of print. So it largely lived up to its name.


I think it's more that it was never really in print - from the Will Self review:

_ There isn’t a shred of reason in this text, which – one hopes because all the publishers it was offered to turned it down – has been produced by an imprint funded by subscribers including such beacons of enlightenment as Richard Littlejohn._

the crowdfunding page for this book has some interesting numbers - I reckon i could probably raise this kind of interest for a book myself:









						Unchosen
					

The UK’s most controversial journalist on why she loves the Jewish people




					unbound.com


----------



## killer b (Apr 16, 2021)

(I wonder why she hasn't used this novel method of vanity publishing for her latest tome? I suppose the three friends who chipped in a grand each last time probably aren't up for it again...)


----------



## Knotted (Apr 16, 2021)

JB's shallow and obsessive and these traits seem to get worse as she gets older. Ash Sarkar as a sexually liberated, fun loving, witty, left wing young woman represents exactly Burchill's ideal working class woman and also her ideal Jew. Except she's Muslim and supposed to be the opposite of all those things. I think that's the driver of the stalking. Burchill is so neurotic these days, it's hard to take her seriously.

I liked Sarkar's statement blaming the media for sugar coating Burchill's behaviour. I think they're more of a problem than Burchill, who is really just a bit of a weirdo now. For most hacks Sarkar and who she is and what she represents is fair game.


----------



## hitmouse (Apr 16, 2021)

killer b said:


> I think it's more that it was never really in print - from the Will Self review:
> 
> _ There isn’t a shred of reason in this text, which – one hopes because all the publishers it was offered to turned it down – has been produced by an imprint funded by subscribers including such beacons of enlightenment as Richard Littlejohn._
> 
> ...



Trying to think whether it would be weirder if the one person who paid for this was Jewish, in which case why would you do that, or if they were gentile, in which case why would you do that. There's not really a good answer either way, but at least there's only one of them. A very small Shabbat celebration indeed, by the looks of it.


----------



## killer b (Apr 16, 2021)

the deeper you get, the weirder it looks.


----------



## hitmouse (Apr 16, 2021)

The elderflower wine stuff is also a marvellous bit of... Mr Burns isn't quite right, but some kind of similar cartoonish evil rich person, possibly a Viz character?


> Burchill’s deconstruction of the meal extends to the drinks the hosts did (and did not) serve, after Burchill brought bottles of champagne. “Surely I started to dislike Call-Me-Elli at the moment she substituted her homebrew for my Veuve Clicquot,” she writes.
> 
> For Rabbi Sarah, the critique epitomises the writer’s betrayal of their hospitality. “It’s such an invasion… We served the elderflower [wine] that my partner had actually made,” she says. Burchill is unrepentant, telling The Independent: “I don’t call giving someone home-brewed elderflower filth when they’ve brought two bottles of Bolly ‘hospitality’.”


----------



## killer b (Apr 16, 2021)

That's pretty funny tbf. While I don't quite side with Burchill there, I understand the sentiment - but it's something you bitch and laugh about behind their backs, not write about in your memoirs.


----------



## killer b (Apr 16, 2021)

homebrewed wine is always revolting. Brew it for your own consumption by all means, but making other people drink it_ is _very bad manners.


----------



## hitmouse (Apr 16, 2021)

Hah, fair, I don't really like wine so not particularly qualified to judge on that front. Although I suppose anyone actually prepared to let Burchill into their home is already displaying excessive levels of tolerance in the first place.


----------



## killer b (Apr 16, 2021)

The person who serves homebrewed wine at a dinner party is akin to the person who goes to the toilet when it's their round in the pub.


----------



## two sheds (Apr 16, 2021)

Not had elderflower wine but I've made elderflower champagne and elderflower cordial and they were fucking lovely


----------



## killer b (Apr 16, 2021)

I'm sure your guests agreed with you (while you were still in the room)


----------



## two sheds (Apr 16, 2021)

Didn't give it to anyone who came round kept it to myself 

Have you ever had elderflower champagne?


----------



## killer b (Apr 16, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Didn't give it to anyone who came round kept it to myself


You did the right thing.


----------



## killer b (Apr 16, 2021)

(I have drunk elderflower champagne, and all other manner of homebrewed boozes over the years. I've always nodded very politely about how delicious it was, before either forcing it down or pouring it into a nearby houseplant)


----------



## two sheds (Apr 16, 2021)

seems very bourgeois sort of criticism to me - very middle class dinner party pass the napkins  

Was it kosher veuve cliquot by the way?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 16, 2021)

These are clearly different kinds of parties from any I've ever been invited to. Taking two bottles of expensive champagne is nice - certainly beats turning up with a bottle of Blossom Hill - but in itself it strikes me as a bit ostentatious. I wouldn't complain and I would certainly drink it ahead of my home-brew, but it shouldn't win you special privileges.


----------



## killer b (Apr 16, 2021)

It's just very difficult to make homebrew which is much better than rough sweet stuff that gets you hammered. And people who brew it, IME, are often blind to this issue and think they're making something of rare distinction and subtlety. I've yet to find any exception to this rule (and indeed won't now, as I have been blessed with not having to drink anyone's homebrew at all in almost 8 years)


----------



## killer b (Apr 16, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> turning up with a bottle of Blossom Hill


this is also terrible manners.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 16, 2021)

I have a mate who makes very decent IPA. I'll drink it ahead of the stuff I've taken happily. I think you're on safer ground with beer and cider, but yeah it always has a home-brew edge to it.


----------



## two sheds (Apr 16, 2021)

I first had elderflower champagne 45 years ago and I still remember it as being lovely - was the reason I started doing it myself. 

Perhaps the rabbi was too polite to point out that the bourgeois champagne wasn't kosher, and didn't want to give it to their adoptive-jewish guest either to avoid leading her astray.


----------



## Knotted (Apr 16, 2021)

Did not know wine/champagne might not be kosher.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 16, 2021)

And I've learned something. I had no idea there was such a thing as non-kosher champagne.


----------



## two sheds (Apr 16, 2021)

(neither do I  but it's a good line of argument)

and

there is kosher champagne so I'd imagine there is non-kosher champagne


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 16, 2021)

According to this site, pretty much all wine is likely to be non-kosher unless it's been specifically made kosher. It's about who handles it rather than what's in it. Magical thinking, basically. 



> Interpretations vary to some extent, but to qualify as ‘kosher’ in most cases, only practising Jewish workers can handle the wine in the cellar, from crushing grapes to tasting and bottling.
> 
> Winemakers also need to be extra careful when sourcing yeasts, additives and fining agents, to make sure they are kosher, too.
> 
> ...



What is kosher wine? A brief guide - Decanter


----------



## spitfire (Apr 16, 2021)

The whole grape/kosher thing is tricky, when the rabbi visited our kitchen he asked us if we ever intended to use wine in our products. I said no. He said, that's good, it's complicated, I forget why. (eta lbj has th einfo above).

I had a quick google and couldn't see much about Veuve being kosher, usually would have the logo on the label if so. In the UK it looks like this. (Other kosher organisations are available).




If it was kosher then it would say so on Ocado. It doesn't.





__





						Loading…
					





					www.ocado.com


----------



## two sheds (Apr 16, 2021)

fine jewish friend _she _is


----------



## Knotted (Apr 16, 2021)

She's in it for the religion and nationalism not the traditions. She wasn't to know, bless her.


----------



## spitfire (Apr 16, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> According to this site, pretty much all wine is likely to be non-kosher unless it's been specifically made kosher. It's about who handles it rather than what's in it. Magical thinking, basically.
> 
> 
> 
> What is kosher wine? A brief guide - Decanter



Yeah that's it. Weirdly when making food we didn't have to be Jewish or kosher. Must be something special about the grape in the Torah.

And Julie Burchill can fuck off. She's horrible, always has been, used to hate her columns in the NME.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 16, 2021)

two sheds said:


> fine jewish friend _she _is


tbf if you don't drink non-kosher wine, you _really_ need to tell your guests beforehand. 

This dinner party was an etiquette minefield.


----------



## spitfire (Apr 16, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> tbf if you don't drink non-kosher wine, you _really_ need to tell your guests beforehand.
> 
> This dinner party was an etiquette minefield.



She's a Rabbi! lol.


----------



## Knotted (Apr 16, 2021)

spitfire said:


> She's a Rabbi! lol.



And Burchill was trying to convert to judaism.


----------



## two sheds (Apr 16, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> tbf if you don't drink non-kosher wine, you _really_ need to tell your guests beforehand.
> 
> This dinner party was an etiquette minefield.


If I were to be a guest at a rabbi's I'd _make sure_ that anything I took would be kosher. Anything less would be just boorish. Let alone not mentioning it at the time but complaining about it to a wide audience afterwards.


----------



## spitfire (Apr 16, 2021)

Knotted said:


> And Burchill was trying to convert to judaism.



Zactly!


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 16, 2021)

two sheds said:


> If I were to be a guest at a rabbi's I'd _make sure_ that anything I took would be kosher. Anything less would be just boorish. Let alone not mentioning it at the time but complaining about it to a wide audience afterwards.


If a rabbi invites me to dinner, they are likely to know I'm not Jewish, and ought to know that I'm unlikely to be well informed about what's kosher or not beyond the basics. Good manners in that instance would be: 'Don't bring booze - we'll sort you out.' Otherwise, I'd be taking along a nice bottle of red, cos that's what I do when I visit people's houses.


----------



## two sheds (Apr 16, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> If a rabbi invites me to dinner, they are likely to know I'm not Jewish, and ought to know that I'm unlikely to be well informed about what's kosher or not beyond the basics. Good manners in that instance would be: 'Don't bring booze - we'll sort you out.' Otherwise, I'd be taking along a nice bottle of red, cos that's what I do when I visit people's houses.


So if you weren't vegetarian and they knew you weren't a vegetarian but you went round to their place for dinner you'd take a couple of sausage rolls and then complain to the twitterati when they weren't served up?


----------



## spitfire (Apr 16, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> If a rabbi invites me to dinner, they are likely to know I'm not Jewish, and ought to know that I'm unlikely to be well informed about what's kosher or not beyond the basics. Good manners in that instance would be: 'Don't bring booze - we'll sort you out.' Otherwise, I'd be taking along a nice bottle of red, cos that's what I do when I visit people's houses.



That's fair, but as a student of Judaism Burchill should have had half a clue. I knew and I've only spent an hour in the company of a Rabbi, total.


----------



## bimble (Apr 16, 2021)

Pleasantly surprised by the unexpected levels of weirdness reached here .


----------



## hitmouse (Apr 16, 2021)

Does everyone know about how the MD in MD20/20 stands for Mogen David? I'd recommend youse all stock up on that to avoid causing offence next time you go over to the Rabbi's house, I remember the blue raspberry favour being particularly exquisite.


----------



## spitfire (Apr 16, 2021)

Absolut is kosher.


----------



## spitfire (Apr 16, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Does everyone know about how the MD in MD20/20 stands for Mogen David? I'd recommend youse all stock up on that to avoid causing offence next time you go over to the Rabbi's house, I remember the blue raspberry favour being particularly exquisite.



Hahahaha. Amazing.


----------



## Sue (Apr 16, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Does everyone know about how the MD in MD20/20 stands for Mogen David? I'd recommend youse all stock up on that to avoid causing offence next time you go over to the Rabbi's house, I remember the blue raspberry favour being particularly exquisite.


No! Mad Dog 20/20 surely...?  

ETA And I'm not alone.... Viral picture shows shocking fact you (probably) didn't know about MD 20/20


----------



## nogojones (Apr 16, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Not had elderflower wine but I've made elderflower champagne and elderflower cordial and they were fucking lovely


I think I prefer elderflower champagne over real champagne


----------



## killer b (Apr 16, 2021)

bimble said:


> Pleasantly surprised by the unexpected levels of weirdness reached here .


it's the best thread on urban atm by some distance.


----------



## two sheds (Apr 16, 2021)

nogojones said:


> I think I prefer elderflower champagne over real champagne



Yep me too it's gorgeous stuff - if you can prevent the bottles from exploding. 

I actually prefer champagnoise to champagne - working class champagne


----------



## ska invita (Apr 16, 2021)

Ive had some Passover Wine before....I liked it but i tend to like alcohol. I remember it being quite portish

veuve clicque costs £40 a bottle, i expect julie was jsut showing off


----------



## spitfire (Apr 16, 2021)

Elderflower anything makes me heave. 

And Rosehip. That can get to fuck too.


----------



## hitmouse (Apr 16, 2021)

Sue said:


> No! Mad Dog 20/20 surely...?
> 
> ETA And I'm not alone.... Viral picture shows shocking fact you (probably) didn't know about MD 20/20


I can never get over how, as mentioned in that article, Americans apparently call it "bum wine". One of those expressions that really doesn't cross the Atlantic well.


spitfire said:


> Elderflower anything makes me heave.
> 
> And Rosehip. That can get to fuck too.


I'm the opposite - proper wine is rank, elderflower cordial is quite nice, so if the homebrew stuff tastes more like elderflower cordial and less like real wine it can't be all bad.


----------



## Orang Utan (Apr 16, 2021)

Has anyone ever tried a meaty wine?








						Wincarnis - Wikipedia
					






					en.m.wikipedia.org


----------



## two sheds (Apr 16, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> I can never get over how, as mentioned in that article, Americans apparently call it "bum wine". One of those expressions that really doesn't cross the Atlantic well.
> 
> I'm the opposite - proper wine is rank, elderflower cordial is quite nice, so if the homebrew stuff tastes more like elderflower cordial and less like real wine it can't be all bad.



Sad how mass produced media driven consumer society has conned people into believing that good old traditional honest individual home produced food and drink in its infinite variety is inferior in some way.


----------



## Knotted (Apr 16, 2021)

Bobby Krlic's Midsommar soundtrack isn't much commented on, but I thought it was all sorts of magnificent. Glorious drone strings with some real emotional depth.


----------



## marty21 (Apr 16, 2021)

killer b said:


> (I have drunk elderflower champagne, and all other manner of homebrewed boozes over the years. I've always nodded very politely about how delicious it was, before either forcing it down or pouring it into a nearby houseplant)


((((Houseplants)))


----------



## krtek a houby (Apr 16, 2021)

marty21 said:


> ((((Houseplants)))



It's weird seeing this, on such a thread. Understand that urban uses it in a different way than the unsettling intended way... but still...


----------



## Sue (Apr 16, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> It's weird seeing this, on such a thread. Understand that urban uses it in a different way than the unsettling intended way... but still...


What's the unsettling intended way?


----------



## two sheds (Apr 16, 2021)

Sue said:


> What's the unsettling intended way?


(((houseplants)))


----------



## krtek a houby (Apr 16, 2021)

Sue said:


> What's the unsettling intended way?



The ((( ))) stuff. Only found out a few years back that it's used by fash types for identifying Jewish people.


----------



## Sue (Apr 16, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> The ((( ))) stuff. Only found out a few years back that it's used by fash types for identifying Jewish people.


So it's no more an intended way than the way it's used here.


----------



## Orang Utan (Apr 16, 2021)

It’s just means ‘I embrace’ here


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Apr 16, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> It’s just means ‘I embrace’ here



Think it's better to use more than 3 brackets on here though - 3 brackets seems to be the dubious specific


----------



## killer b (Apr 16, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> The ((( ))) stuff. Only found out a few years back that it's used by fash types for identifying Jewish people.


I don't expect it is anymore tbh. they probably have some new secret code now.


----------



## krtek a houby (Apr 16, 2021)

Sue said:


> So it's no more an intended way than the way it's used here.



Obviously nobody here uses it in the fash way!


----------



## killer b (Apr 16, 2021)

it only has a dubious meaning in very specific circumstances, ie when used by fascists on their fascist forums five years ago. You can tell it doesn't mean that here, because they're round a houseplant and it's not 2015. And we aren't fascists.


----------



## krtek a houby (Apr 16, 2021)

Puddy_Tat said:


> Think it's better to use more than 3 brackets on here though - 3 brackets seems to be the dubious specific



On closer inspection, it is 4 and then 3 brackets above... damn my eyes


----------



## Sue (Apr 16, 2021)

killer b said:


> it only has a dubious meaning in very specific circumstances, ie when used by fascists on their fascist forums five years ago. You can tell it doesn't mean that here, because they're round a houseplant and it's not 2015. And we aren't fascists.


Or maybe marty21 is in deep cover and has something against houseplants....  

And God knows what's going on on in knobbing and sobbing.


----------



## killer b (Apr 16, 2021)

Maybe Marty21 was the fascist Marty after all!?


----------



## Orang Utan (Apr 16, 2021)

I knew it. No one can be that loveable. ))) marty21 (((


----------



## Sue (Apr 16, 2021)

(((marty21 in a non-fash way)))


----------



## hitmouse (Apr 16, 2021)

killer b said:


> it only has a dubious meaning in very specific circumstances, ie when used by fascists on their fascist forums five years ago. You can tell it doesn't mean that here, because they're round a houseplant and it's not 2015. And we aren't fascists.


It's one of those things, a bit like woke in its way, where I think that even when it was in use, it probably got used as a form of "virtue-signalling" by wanky Burchillesque philosemite dickhead types showing their allyship more than by actual fash. But if marty21 does actually think all houseplants are Jewish, that  would be one hell of a theory.


----------



## hitmouse (Apr 16, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> I knew it. No one can be that loveable. ))) marty21 (((


Putting the brackets that way around just makes me think of Me and You and Everyone We Know:


Spoiler


----------



## spitfire (Apr 16, 2021)

killer b said:


> it only has a dubious meaning in very specific circumstances, ie when used by fascists on their fascist forums five years ago. You can tell it doesn't mean that here, because they're round a houseplant and it's not 2015. And *we aren't fascists.*



Errr...


----------



## spitfire (Apr 16, 2021)

Ah bollox. I've outed myself.


----------



## Sue (Apr 16, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Putting the brackets that way around just makes me think of Me and You and Everyone We Know:
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...


Emoticon/emoji thread thattaway ===>


----------



## spitfire (Apr 16, 2021)

Anyhoo. Look over here.


----------



## Sue (Apr 16, 2021)

spitfire said:


> Errr...


We...are...?


----------



## Orang Utan (Apr 16, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Putting the brackets that way around just makes me think of Me and You and Everyone We Know:
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...


Don’t even need to look at the spoiler! Beautiful catfishing!


----------



## spitfire (Apr 16, 2021)

Sue said:


> We...are...?



Who are the real fascists ? Eh? Eh?


----------



## two sheds (Apr 16, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Putting the brackets that way around just makes me think of Me and You and Everyone We Know:


----------



## Sue (Apr 16, 2021)

spitfire said:


> Who are the real fascists ? Eh? Eh?


Worse than Hitler thread thattaway ==>  (I've come over all pogofish all of a sudden.)


----------



## spitfire (Apr 16, 2021)

Sue said:


> Worse than Hitler thread thattaway ==>  (I've come over all pogofish all of a sudden.)



See? ^^fascist^^


----------



## spitfire (Apr 16, 2021)

(For the record I do not believe that Sue is a fascist at all.)


----------



## hitmouse (Apr 16, 2021)

Bit late on a Friday night for this, but can anyone remember who the irksome gentile dickheads who insisted on bracketing themselves were? Dan Hodges is the main one that comes to mind, sure that there were others? It sort of feels like Burchill herself must have done it at some point, right?


----------



## two sheds (Apr 16, 2021)

spitfire said:


> (For the record I do not believe that Sue is a fascist at all.)


----------



## killer b (Apr 16, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Bit late on a Friday night for this, but can anyone remember who the irksome gentile dickheads who insisted on bracketing themselves were? Dan Hodges is the main one that comes to mind, sure that there were others? It sort of feels like Burchill herself must have done it at some point, right?


It was basically the anti-corbyn version of FBPE at one point, so all those dicks


----------



## two sheds (Apr 16, 2021)

spitfire said:


> (For the record I do not believe that Sue is a fascist at all.)


----------



## Sue (Apr 16, 2021)

spitfire said:


> (For the record I do not believe that Sue is a fascist at all.)


Jeezo. Just to confirm than my free use of brackets is because I love you all in a non-dubious way. ❤


----------



## spitfire (Apr 16, 2021)

Sue said:


> Jeezo. Just to confirm than my free use of brackets is because I love you all in a non-dubious way. ❤




(((((Sue)))))

I'm not a fascist either! Honest!


----------



## two sheds (Apr 16, 2021)

me neither, you neither honest 

((((Sue))))


----------



## Sue (Apr 16, 2021)

spitfire said:


> (((((Sue)))))
> 
> I'm not a fascist either! Honest!


What the fuck are those ^ brackets about then, eh? Eh?


----------



## spitfire (Apr 16, 2021)

((((two sheds))))


----------



## two sheds (Apr 16, 2021)

(((spitfire being  woke )))


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 16, 2021)

((((( ((( ))) )))))


----------



## spitfire (Apr 16, 2021)

Sue said:


> What the fuck are those ^ brackets about then, eh? Eh?



Everyone remembers when the Infinity Bracket War started. No one knows when it finished.


----------



## strung out (Apr 16, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Bit late on a Friday night for this, but can anyone remember who the irksome gentile dickheads who insisted on bracketing themselves were? Dan Hodges is the main one that comes to mind, sure that there were others? It sort of feels like Burchill herself must have done it at some point, right?


Zoe Williams from the Guardian: (((Echoes))): beating the far-right, two triple-brackets at a time | Twitter | The Guardian


----------



## two sheds (Apr 16, 2021)

Sue said:


> What the fuck are those ^ brackets about then, eh? Eh?


and who can argue with Sue Grabbitt and Runne? 

Eh? Eh?


----------



## DaveCinzano (Apr 16, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> View attachment 263565
> Trying to think whether it would be weirder if the one person who paid for this was Jewish, in which case why would you do that, or if they were gentile, in which case why would you do that. There's not really a good answer either way, but at least there's only one of them. A very small Shabbat celebration indeed, by the looks of it.


It was all a misunderstanding, leading to a hella disappointed dancehall fan booking themselves an appointment at SpecSavers immediately after what proved to be a confusing and non-irie dinner


----------



## krtek a houby (Apr 17, 2021)

Sue said:


> We...are...?



... Devo?


----------



## marty21 (Apr 17, 2021)

Sue said:


> Or maybe marty21 is in deep cover and has something against houseplants....
> 
> And God knows what's going on on in knobbing and sobbing.


I can confirm that I am not a fascist.  I'd forgotten the other use for brackets tbf.


----------



## marty21 (Apr 17, 2021)

killer b said:


> Maybe Marty21 was the fascist Marty after all!?


I am fiendish


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 17, 2021)

marty21 said:


> I am fiendish


But that only adds up to 20 in Scrabble. Where's the other point come from?


----------



## Brainaddict (Apr 17, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> Has anyone ever tried a meaty wine?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ooh, this explains a Jasper Fforde hotel name in Early Riser (the only book of his I've liked).


----------



## spitfire (Apr 17, 2021)

So Julie Burchill, what a rotter eh?

((((sorry Sue ))))


----------



## hitmouse (Apr 20, 2021)

Knotted said:


> Yes Midsommar even more than Wicker Man if anything. I think folk horror often means "films that are roughly inspired by or similar to the Wicker Man". So Midsommar, Children of the Corn, Black Death, Kill List etc.. So rural cults, rituals, human sacrifice and entrapment. But that doesn't cover films like A Field in England, The Witch or indeed The Witchfinder General.
> 
> Edit: I suppose a unifying factor is that they are all mainly outdoors and mainly daylight (ramped up to 11 in Midsommar). The terror is hiding in plain sight and the films are about building an oppressive atmosphere.


Back on the folk horror side of this thread, I've just thought: how does The Secret History fit into/relate to all this? I feel like it would fit a lot of characteristics on any folk horror checklist/bingo card, but I also don't really feel like the term fits for it. Is it like folk-horror-adjacent or something, and if so why?


----------



## Knotted (Apr 20, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Back on the folk horror side of this thread, I've just thought: how does The Secret History fit into/relate to all this? I feel like it would fit a lot of characteristics on any folk horror checklist/bingo card, but I also don't really feel like the term fits for it. Is it like folk-horror-adjacent or something, and if so why?



We're now onto novels and I don't read so much and I don't know this one. We really need Reno on this thread, but I think he's on a break from urban.


----------



## Sue (Apr 20, 2021)

Knotted said:


> We're now onto novels and I don't read so much and I don't know this one. We really need Reno on this thread, but I think he's on a break from urban.


The Secret History is more classical horror 😉.


----------



## Orang Utan (Apr 20, 2021)

The Secret History is a thriller, if you’re talking about the Donna Tartt book


----------



## hitmouse (Apr 20, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> The Secret History is a thriller, if you’re talking about the Donna Tartt book


Yeah, I'd never really thought of it as a horror before. But if we're talking about stuff that deals with 


Spoiler: Secret History spoilers



rural cults, rituals, human sacrifice and entrapment (and also like the theme of some kind of atavistic return to primal destructive urges)


then I feel like Secret History fits that description pretty well, right? So I was just wondering why the folk horror label doesn't fit there, if it doesn't?


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 20, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Yeah, I'd never really thought of it as a horror before. But if we're talking about stuff that deals with
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Secret History spoilers
> ...


well for one  they're all elite students which isn't the usual cast for folk horror.


----------



## kittyP (Apr 20, 2021)

Knotted said:


> We're now onto novels and I don't read so much and I don't know this one. We really need Reno on this thread, but I think he's on a break from urban.



Tbf  Jasper Fforde  fits folk weirdness quite well too.


----------



## hitmouse (Apr 20, 2021)

DotCommunist said:


> well for one  they're all elite students which isn't the usual cast for folk horror.


Yeah, that makes sense. And maybe there's a rule that if you've inspired a tiktok aesthetic then you're not allowed to be folk horror anymore?
Thinking about Secret History and horror conventions is interesting though (or maybe it isn't and I'm just really desperate to avoid doing any work this afternoon), like


Spoiler



in some ways, "young college students go off into the woods/countryside and meet a farmer" is such a horror cliche, if not a folk one then at least a pretty standard slasher format, going right back to Texas Chainsaw and that, but obv in the Secret History the whole thing of who's the victim and who's the villain is turned on its head? No idea if Donna Tartt was actually trying to write a reverse slasher with folk horror elements when she wrote it though, any more than if she was deliberately trying to inspire a tiktok trend in 2020.


----------



## Orang Utan (Apr 20, 2021)

You’ll have to explain the TikTok thing for us elderly folk


----------



## killer b (Apr 20, 2021)

I think it's just the what the kids call 'teenagers dressing preppy and reading poetry in cafes' to make it seem like a new idea


----------



## hitmouse (Apr 20, 2021)

There is a trend called "Dark Academia" that involves... dressing like an academic? Wearing a lot of tweed? I don't claim to understand it myself, but I feel like Donna Tartt bears a tremendous amount of blame for tricking young'uns into thinking that studying the classics is cool and sexy? That and probably also something to do with Harry Potter.


----------



## ska invita (Apr 20, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> You’ll have to explain the TikTok thing for us elderly folk


Can you make the font bigger in your posts, Im struggling to read them.
And SPEAK UP!!


----------



## hitmouse (Apr 20, 2021)

Thinking about it, is folk horror just Dark Cottagecore?


----------



## splonkydoo (Apr 20, 2021)

Here I was thinking this was 35 pages about Julie Burchill.... wtf.


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## splonkydoo (Apr 20, 2021)

And I refuse to acknowledge this is currently 'the best thread on urban' , fight me.


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## Orang Utan (Apr 20, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> There is a trend called "Dark Academia" that involves... dressing like an academic? Wearing a lot of tweed? I don't claim to understand it myself, but I feel like Donna Tartt bears a tremendous amount of blame for tricking young'uns into thinking that studying the classics is cool and sexy? That and probably also something to do with Harry Potter.


Reading poetry out loud in caves whilst wearing a black turtleneck?


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## hitmouse (Apr 20, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> Reading poetry out loud in caves whilst wearing a black turtleneck?


Yeah. Or in your bedroom while pretending you're in a cave, probably?


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## teqniq (Jun 7, 2021)




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## JTG (Jun 7, 2021)

teqniq said:


>



Tweeted a play on George Floyd's name to have a go at the new Meghan/Harry sprog. Pretty gross really


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## hitmouse (Jun 7, 2021)

Always exciting seeing this thread getting bumped - are they making a new Wicker Man sequel? Does someone need advice as to whether their home-made elderflower wine is suitable for rabbis? Oh, it's just Burchill making a dick of herself again.


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## Santino (Jun 7, 2021)

It's not a musical though.


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## Orang Utan (Jun 7, 2021)

It is it is


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## Plumdaff (Jun 8, 2021)

teqniq said:


>



I don't think she was suspended I think she flounced, having made some typically horrible racist statement about Meghan and Harry's new kid, that Twitter said wasn't horrible and racist.


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## Funky_monks (Jun 8, 2021)




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## elbows (Jun 8, 2021)

Plumdaff said:


> I don't think she was suspended I think she flounced, having made some typically horrible racist statement about Meghan and Harry's new kid, that Twitter said wasn't horrible and racist.


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## 5t3IIa (Jun 8, 2021)

What did she say?


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## killer b (Jun 8, 2021)

'they missed the opportunity to call it georgina floydina'


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## krtek a houby (Jun 8, 2021)

She'll be back. Lives for and loves the attention.


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## Chilli.s (Jun 8, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> She'll be back. Lives for and loves the attention.


Yeah exactly this, like loser fox too, very needy


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## hitmouse (Jun 8, 2021)

I hope the mods are keeping a close eye on new users signing up at the moment.


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## 5t3IIa (Jun 8, 2021)

Oh. Oh dear.


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## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Jun 8, 2021)

killer b said:


> 'they missed the opportunity to call it georgina floydina'



That's not even as horribly offensive as she'd like it to be is it? More obnoxiously tedious.


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## Pickman's model (Jun 8, 2021)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> That's not even as horribly offensive as she'd like it to be is it? More obnoxiously tedious.


like someone trying to be offensive and falling flat on her face instead


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## Plumdaff (Jun 8, 2021)

Looks like it got her sacked by the woke mob at The Telegraph... (can't link atm but she's announced it on Facebook apparently)


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## killer b (Jun 8, 2021)

The idea that lame comment is too racist for the telegraph is pretty incongruous - absolutely no way was she just sacked for that.


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## elbows (Jun 8, 2021)

Plumdaff said:


> Looks like it got her sacked by the woke mob at The Telegraph... (can't link atm but she's Tweeted under her married name of Julie Raven)











						Julie Burchill says she’s been sacked by Telegraph after racist Lilibet tweet
					

‘It’s been a lovely five years‘ the columnist posted on Facebook




					www.independent.co.uk


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## Plumdaff (Jun 8, 2021)

killer b said:


> The idea that lame comment is too racist for the telegraph is pretty incongruous - absolutely no way was she just sacked for that.


I'm sure she's a delightful colleague and her 'edgy' ideas they kept nixing were genius.


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## SpookyFrank (Jun 11, 2021)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> That's not even as horribly offensive as she'd like it to be is it? More obnoxiously tedious.



It doesn't really make enough sense to be offensive. It's just utterly pathetic.


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## Elpenor (Jun 11, 2021)

Not just Burchill in trouble from that Twitter exchange






						Barrister suspended for joking Meghan and Harry should have named baby ‘Doprah’ | RollOnFriday
					

Accused of racism




					www.rollonfriday.com
				




It seems Twitters main purpose is to provide a platform for its users to disgrace itself?


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## elbows (Jun 12, 2021)

Elpenor said:


> It seems Twitters main purpose is to provide a platform for its users to disgrace itself?


No, its just thats more newsworthy than other stuff that happens there.

It has been quite invaluable to me in this pandemic, I have benefitted from knowledge that lots of experts in their fields have shared there, stuff that I likely wouldnt have otherwise had access to.


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## Puddy_Tat (Jun 12, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> I hope the mods are keeping a close eye on new users signing up at the moment.


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## JTG (Jun 12, 2021)

Elpenor said:


> Not just Burchill in trouble from that Twitter exchange
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Certainly one of its uses is to exhibit how many liberal 90s celebs have awful views.

It's a lot more than that though. Depends how you use it tbh


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## maomao (Jun 12, 2021)

killer b said:


> 'they missed the opportunity to call it georgina floydina'


I just spent three minutes looking for what she had said and was disappointed at how rubbish and unfunny it was. Though I don't know why I'd expect better from Burchill.


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## Sweet FA (Jun 12, 2021)

Sue said:


> We...are...?


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## Dystopiary (Jun 12, 2021)

Saw this thread had been updated and thought maybe she had de-flounced already.


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