# Is the North more racially segregated than the South?



## Belushi (Jul 19, 2007)

Someone has made this claim on another thread and I wondered if theres any truth in it? I know theres real divisions in some of the old Lancashire mill towns but then I've lived in places in the South outside London where the small non-white minority pretty much kept themselves to themselves.

So, is there any truth in the claim?


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## electrogirl (Jul 19, 2007)

Bristol is pretty racially segregated.


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## rutabowa (Jul 19, 2007)

Belushi said:
			
		

> Someone has made this claim on another thread and I wondered if theres any truth in it? I know theres real divisions in some of the old Lancashire mill towns but then I've lived in places in the South outside London where the small non-white minority pretty much kept themselves to themselves.
> 
> So, is there any truth in the claim?


Yes.


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## Roadkill (Jul 19, 2007)

I don't think it's so much a north-south divide as a divide between the cities (mostly the largest, but also places such as Leicester and Bradford) that have long-established minority communities, and the places that do not.


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## moomoo (Jul 19, 2007)

Our town has a few streets in the town centre that are almost entirely Asian.   But most of the estates are predominately white.

And my childrens school has a large number of Asian children while most of the others have very few in comparison.

So, yes, I would say it is segregated to an extent.


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## rutabowa (Jul 19, 2007)

Roadkill said:
			
		

> I don't think it's so much a north-south divide as a divide between the cities (mostly the largest, but also places such as Leicester and Bradford) that have long-established minority communities, and the places that do not.


i don't know, the cities i've lived in the north have been much more segregated than london say...


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## Roadkill (Jul 19, 2007)

rutabowa said:
			
		

> i don't know, the cities i've lived in the north have been much more segregated than london say...



Tbh I'm of opinion that London is far more segregated than some people care to admit, although it's certainly a lot less so than most other cities.  Such as brighton, whose southern credentials are impeccable...


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## tarannau (Jul 19, 2007)

Yes. London has pockets of wealth which colour the picture more than a little though. Equally some of the London suburbs are arguably the most mixed areas now - areas which were BNP-strongholds have now become massively mixed in my lifetime, as families are increasingly priced out of the centre.


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## Orang Utan (Jul 19, 2007)

Roadkill said:
			
		

> Tbh I'm of opinion that London is far more segregated than some people care to admit, although it's certainly a lot less so than most other cities.  Such as brighton, whose southern credentials are impeccable...


The way I see it is that up north, the communities can't avoid each other as much as they can in London.
A few years ago I was sat on a bus in Streatham and I looked around me and realised there was a huge number of different ethnicities/nationalies on the bus - Nigerian, Somalian, Jamaican, Indian, Chinese, Columbian, Polish, Irish, English etc etc - and was thinking how great that London has such a huge variety of people. But I also realised how much we all keep ourselves to ourselves cos it's so easy not to converse and mix with people in such a seething metropolis. More compact places like Leeds force people to converse with each other. It's only in places with established 'ghettoes' that segregation has arisen


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## tarannau (Jul 19, 2007)

Orang Utan said:
			
		

> . But I also realised how much we all keep ourselves to ourselves cos it's so easy not to converse and mix with people in such a seething metropolis. More compact places like Leeds force people to converse with each other. It's only in places with established 'ghettoes' that segregation has arisen



I'm not convinced by that one - where there's a good neighbourhood local people do tend to mix in London. I've run a good old menagerie of pubs over the years, in London mainly, and they can be a hugely valuable melting pot. A more likely problem is perhaps the sheer variety of choice in London, allowing people to cheery pick the venues and events they feel most at home at. Equally the decline of the local and rise of the more expensive gastropub/bar means that there's not always that local venue that everyone can afford.

Bear in mind that in the part of London we're in is also rental city. The presence of all those tenants and investors doesn't exactly make for a stable area where neighbours meet each other in the longer term. Once again the suburbs of London are often as gossipy and curtain-twitching as the North


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## Belushi (Jul 19, 2007)

I'd be fucked if I were a racist as I find it impossible not to mix with people from all over the world living where I do (Streatham) and at my workplace.


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## Roadkill (Jul 19, 2007)

tarannau said:
			
		

> Bear in mind that in the part of London we're in is also rental city. The presence of all those tenants and investors doesn't exactly make for a stable area where neighbours meet each other in the longer term. Once again the suburbs of London are often *as gossipy and curtain-twitching as the North*



You're the first one to complain when people start making generalisations about London: please desist from doing so about everywhere else.  

FWIW what you've said about 'rental city' is absolutely true, but it applies to every city in the country.  Every large settlement has its areas of shifting populations: it's a facet of modern life.

@Orang Utan, I'm confused.    You seem to be suggesting that London is _more_ segregated than elsewhere because people can avoid each other.  IME there is some truth in that, but it doesn't apply all over in London.  And again, there are other cities that are very segregated.


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## _angel_ (Jul 19, 2007)

C'_mon_ you cannot just lump 'The north' in together. Leeds, Bradford, Liverpool and Burnley are all very different places.


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## Orang Utan (Jul 19, 2007)

Roadkill said:
			
		

> @Orang Utan, I'm confused.    You seem to be suggesting that London is _more_ segregated than elsewhere because people can avoid each other.


In some ways yes - just go out in Brixton and walk about the pubs/clubs


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## Roadkill (Jul 19, 2007)

Orang Utan said:
			
		

> In some ways yes - just go out in Brixton and walk about the pubs/clubs



I don't disagree, although it's not a lot different in any other city I've known.  

Different groups have their different places to go, and if a new 'community' arrives and finds nowhere to suit it, it sets up its own.  I can't help wondering, though, if that's actually more difficult to do in London than elsewhere because of the higher costs: someone wanting to set up a Kurdish Cafe in London will have to fork out a lot more on rent and wages than someone trying the same venture in Hull!


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## Orang Utan (Jul 19, 2007)

Roadkill said:
			
		

> I don't disagree, although it's not a lot different in any other city I've known.  Different groups have their different places to go, and if a new 'community' arrives and finds nowhere to suit it, it sets up its own.


Yes I guess that's true. Thinking about it further I don't think I'm making a valid comparison - I'm comparing a Leeds of 25 years ago, that I experienced as a child at school, with London now, being experience as an adult.


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## rutabowa (Jul 19, 2007)

Orang Utan said:
			
		

> Yes I guess that's true. Thinking about it further I don't think I'm making a valid comparison - I'm comparing a Leeds of 25 years ago, that I experienced as a child at school, with London now, being experience as an adult.


yes the more i think about it the more complicated it gets, my head hurts.


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## Roadkill (Jul 19, 2007)

Orang Utan said:
			
		

> Thinking about it further I don't think I'm making a valid comparison - I'm comparing a Leeds of 25 years ago, that I experienced as a child at school, with London now, being experience as an adult.



I don't wish to be rude, but I've thought that ever since you and I first disagreed over our differing attitudes to London...


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## Orang Utan (Jul 19, 2007)

No offence taken fella!


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## tarannau (Jul 19, 2007)

Orang Utan said:
			
		

> In some ways yes - just go out in Brixton and walk about the pubs/clubs



Depends so much on the bars and clubs though doesn't it? The unreformed boozers tend to  be much more mixed - try the Half Moon and the Hob compared to the gastro-tastic Regent or Florence. The Albert, with its punky music policy and slightly arty clientele, is unsurprisingly white for its location, the Z Bar (with RnB predominantly) is equally predominantly black.

FWIW, I sat on a big three bench table in the Hob last night which resembled a Bennetton advert, all tribes represented. I've rarely seen places out of London so successfully mixed


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## littlebabyjesus (Jul 19, 2007)

Wetherspoon's pubs tend to reflect an area's ethnic mix (apart from the non-drinking cultures) - they speak the universal language of cheap beer.


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## rutabowa (Jul 19, 2007)

littlebabyjesus said:
			
		

> Wetherspoon's pubs tend to reflect an area's ethnic mix (apart from the non-drinking cultures) - they speak the universal language of cheap beer.


not in muslim areas.


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## tarannau (Jul 19, 2007)

littlebabyjesus said:
			
		

> Wetherspoon's pubs tend to reflect an area's ethnic mix (apart from the non-drinking cultures) - they speak the universal language of cheap beer.



Not really - they tend to represent the older ethnic mix of an area. It's not the most representative sample of the younger generation if I'm honest.


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## Orang Utan (Jul 19, 2007)

They represent alcoholics of all backgrounds


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## rutabowa (Jul 19, 2007)

rutabowa said:
			
		

> not in muslim areas.


i just realisaed i was stupid and didn't properly read yr post.


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## Spion (Jul 19, 2007)

What I noticed moving to Bradford from Elephant and Castle was that there are far fewer ethnic types of people here and that the mixed areas are much  smaller. But then I don't really know much about many of the areas of outer London, where I get the impression there are huge mainly white areas.


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Jul 19, 2007)

Belushi said:
			
		

> Someone has made this claim on another thread and I wondered if theres any truth in it? I know theres real divisions in some of the old Lancashire mill towns but then I've lived in places in the South outside London where the small non-white minority pretty much kept themselves to themselves.
> 
> So, is there any truth in the claim?



Somebody's been telling me porkies. On an earlier thread, it was widely denied that segregation exists in the UK.


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## Orang Utan (Jul 19, 2007)

well it depends what you mean by segregation. The UK is in many ways more segregated than North America. But also vice versa


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## mauvais (Jul 19, 2007)

I do like threads about the North. Always good for a laugh


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## scifisam (Jul 20, 2007)

Orang Utan said:
			
		

> The way I see it is that up north, the communities can't avoid each other as much as they can in London.
> A few years ago I was sat on a bus in Streatham and I looked around me and realised there was a huge number of different ethnicities/nationalies on the bus - Nigerian, Somalian, Jamaican, Indian, Chinese, Columbian, Polish, Irish, English etc etc - and was thinking how great that London has such a huge variety of people. But I also realised how much we all keep ourselves to ourselves cos it's so easy not to converse and mix with people in such a seething metropolis. More compact places like Leeds force people to converse with each other. It's only in places with established 'ghettoes' that segregation has arisen



I think you're using the term segregation wrongly. If you can sit on a bus and see all those different ethinicities, then, by defintion, the area that bus serves is not segregated.

I follow your reasoning in a way, though, and I think you might be right in a way, but wrong another way.

You're right in the sense that cities have larger number of the various different non-white-British communites, which means that they are more likely to spend time within their own community rather than branching out, simply because it's easier to talk to people who know your language (linguistically and culturally). 

However, you're wrong in the sense that, with so many different ethnicities, London has enforced integration WRT work and school. You work in London, in any but a few specific jobs, you are going to work with people from pretty much everywhere. You go to school in Tower Hamlets, like my daughter, and your class will cover every continent but Antarctica.

Bear in mind that, if you see groups of (for example) Bengali kids walking along the street, that's not necessarily segregation. That could be one large Bengali family all making their way back to the same area; it's not that they're ignoring people of other races, just that they're walking along with the cousins they've grown up with. 

(That last paragraph refers to your comment in the other thread about not seeing mixed groups of kids walking along together).


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Jul 20, 2007)

Orang Utan said:
			
		

> well it depends what you mean by segregation. The UK is in many ways more segregated than North America. But also vice versa



That's more than a little bit confusing.


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## mentalchik (Jul 20, 2007)

I don't know about segragation but my sister lives in Staffordshire and her mixed race daughter gets stares and the sort of name calling that i associate with times past......


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## Mallard (Jul 20, 2007)

South London's the most segregated place I've lived in or visited (Plumstead/Woolwich) compared to say Manchester. I also surprised when I visited pubs in Brixton a couple of months ago (The Beehive was 98% black The Albert 98% white). Having said this, I'll only go to London 3/4 times a year and areas vary immensley. Some Lancs milltowns are very segregated to be fair.


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## Belushi (Jul 20, 2007)

> South London's the most segregated place I've lived in or visited (Plumstead/Woolwich) compared to say Manchester.



Yeah, I used to live in Woolwich and in Plumstead and it is prety segregated, other parts of South London are very different.


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## Mallard (Jul 20, 2007)

Belushi said:
			
		

> Yeah, I used to live in Woolwich and in Plumstead and it is prety segregated, other parts of South London are very different.



I imagine they are. I can only cooment on where I've lived tbh. Parts of East/North London where mates live are very different as well.


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## Belushi (Jul 20, 2007)

Johnny Canuck2 said:
			
		

> Somebody's been telling me porkies. On an earlier thread, it was widely denied that segregation exists in the UK.



It's less segregated than many countries, but there is a problem in some places, in particular the Northern Mill Towns.

Do they usually say porkies in Canada or have you been spending too much time on U75?


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## Belushi (Jul 20, 2007)

Mallard said:
			
		

> I imagine they are. I can only cooment on where I've lived tbh. Parts of East/North London where mates live are very different as well.



Part fo the problem with the Woolwich/Plumstead neighbourhood is that it was very white until very recently and theres been a large influx of Somali refugees.


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## Roadkill (Jul 20, 2007)

I don't know about Plumstead, but I was under the impression that Woolwich has had a substantial black population for a long time...?


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## Roadkill (Jul 20, 2007)

mauvais said:
			
		

> I do like threads about the North. Always good for a laugh



Says someone from Scumhampton.


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## Belushi (Jul 20, 2007)

Roadkill said:
			
		

> I don't know about Plumstead, but I was under the impression that Woolwich has had a substantial black population for a long time...?



There have been some black people there for a long time but IME theres been a considerable increase in the past ten years or so.


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## Roadkill (Jul 20, 2007)

Doesn't surprise me much: it's a poor and comparatively inexpensive end of London, so no wonder a lot of refugees end up there.

It's a complete shithole as well, but let's not go there.


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## Belushi (Jul 20, 2007)

Roadkill said:
			
		

> It's a complete shithole as well, but let's not go there.



You dont need to tell me, I lived there for five years!


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## Orang Utan (Jul 20, 2007)

Woolwich is the shittiest place I've ever lived for sure


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## Roadkill (Jul 20, 2007)

Hmm, well, Charlton turns into Woolwich at the end of my road so I can kind of sympathise.


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## Belushi (Jul 20, 2007)

Roadkill said:
			
		

> Hmm, well, Charlton turns into Woolwich at the end of my road so I can kind of sympathise.



Charlton is a boring old neighbourhood.


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## Roadkill (Jul 20, 2007)

Belushi said:
			
		

> Charlton is a boring old neighbourhood.



It's peaceable enough (well, except around the stadium when Athletic lose, which is most of the time), and it's handy for work.  I don't like it much, but then I don't like London much full stop.  It's just somewhere to live for now.


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## Orang Utan (Jul 20, 2007)

That tosser from Hale and Pace lives there and so does Gary Bushell. Nuff said.


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## Spion (Jul 20, 2007)

Orang Utan said:
			
		

> The UK is in many ways more segregated than North America. But also vice versa


 My impression of the US is that it's segregated below a certain income level and mixed above. 

And where the US *is* segregated it seems far deeper a division than in the UK, in that there are places you don't go if you're the wrong colour


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## Orang Utan (Jul 20, 2007)

Spion said:
			
		

> My impression of the US is that it's segregated below a certain income level and mixed above.
> 
> And where the US *is* segregated it seems far deeper a division than in the UK, in that there are places you don't go if you're the wrong colour


That's exactly what I was getting at! Thanks!


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## Roadkill (Jul 20, 2007)

Spion said:
			
		

> My impression of the US is that it's segregated below a certain income level and mixed above.
> 
> And where the US *is* segregated it seems far deeper a division than in the UK, in that there are places you don't go if you're the wrong colour



Hmm.  I think the UK is _more_ segregated above that income level than below it.  Poorer areas are often the most mixed, whereas when was the last time you saw a non-white face in Harrogate?  That's changing, of course, but it's still true.

That said, I can think of a few places - pubs principally - in poorer areas of several cities that I suspect anyone not white would be more or less unwelcome in.


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## Belushi (Jul 20, 2007)

> That said, I can think of a few places - pubs principally - in poorer areas of several cities that I suspect anyone not white would be more or less unwelcome in.



Aye, the Lord Herbert in Woolwich suddenly decided it was 'over 25s only' the night my brother and I and his black girlfriend popped in for a drink  

Indian friend had a similar experience in Bognor Regis last year.


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## mauvais (Jul 20, 2007)

Roadkill said:
			
		

> Says someone from Scumhampton.


I'm not! I'm just tragically misplaced  

Send me back to glorious Lancashire please


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Jul 20, 2007)

Spion said:
			
		

> My impression of the US is that it's segregated below a certain income level and mixed above.



I think the opposite is more true. The higher the economic status of the neighborhood, the fewer blacks, hispanics etc you'll find.


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## keicar (Jul 21, 2007)

Roadkill said:
			
		

> Hmm.  I think the UK is _more_ segregated above that income level than below it.  Poorer areas are often the most mixed, whereas when was the last time you saw a non-white face in Harrogate?  That's changing, of course, but it's still true.



Yeah, I'd go with that to a certain extent. There are quite a few Asian people round here who have middle and even high incomes and they've tended to move to the edge of the area they grew up in, but no further. 

The weathly rural towns of Ashbourne, Bakewell etc (and the villages around)tend to have stayed almost exclusively white.

It could, of course, be a fear of racism but perhaps Asian people don't have the desire to move to the country  that many middle class Brits have?


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## _angel_ (Jul 21, 2007)

Roadkill said:
			
		

> Hmm.  I think the UK is _more_ segregated above that income level than below it.  Poorer areas are often the most mixed, whereas when was the last time you saw a non-white face in Harrogate?  That's changing, of course, but it's still true.
> 
> .



Moortown in Leeds where I grew up is both middle class and very racially mixed.

Harrogate may well be whiter because, for whatever reason, people have not migrated there en masse. This could be down to the fact it has always been more expensive and possibly less jobs on offer.

Cities like Leeds offered more affordable housing and plenty of jobs. Now second or third generation of immigrants can be quite comfortably off in Leeds.


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## Spion (Jul 21, 2007)

Johnny Canuck2 said:
			
		

> I think the opposite is more true. The higher the economic status of the neighborhood, the fewer blacks, hispanics etc you'll find.


you may be right about the *higher* you go, but at some middling levels you find some mixed areas, IME. Fewer blacks and hispanics,  than a 'black or hispanic area', but some. I'm thinking Santa Monica, northside Chicago or west Madison (Wi - i was there recently, hence the eg), which seem fairly mixed to me. Compare those to Southside Chicago or SC LA


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## Spion (Jul 21, 2007)

keicar said:
			
		

> It could, of course, be a fear of racism but perhaps Asian people don't have the desire to move to the country  that many middle class Brits have?


 Down around Brum (where I'm from originally) you do find some very big houses owned by Asians in the nearby countryside.


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## Spion (Jul 21, 2007)

_angel_ said:
			
		

> Harrogate may well be whiter because, for whatever reason, people have not migrated there en masse.


I was thinking about this and Harrogate or similar are fairly unusual in that there was/is no industry there and most blacks and many asians who moved to the UK went into industrial work


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Jul 21, 2007)

Spion said:
			
		

> you may be right about the *higher* you go, but at some middling levels you find some mixed areas, IME. Fewer blacks and hispanics,  than a 'black or hispanic area', but some. I'm thinking Santa Monica, northside Chicago or west Madison (Wi - i was there recently, hence the eg), which seem fairly mixed to me. Compare those to Southside Chicago or SC LA



I suppose, but go into the western suburbs of chicago, and it gets pretty exclusively middle class white. I haven't spent enough time in Madison to comment.

Santa Monica would be similar to the north side of chicago: yuppies and other monied types, sort of a showcase, but the white suburbs are there, to the east and northeast, like Simi Valley.


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## Roadkill (Jul 21, 2007)

_angel_ said:
			
		

> Moortown in Leeds where I grew up is both middle class and very racially mixed.
> 
> Harrogate may well be whiter because, for whatever reason, people have not migrated there en masse. This could be down to the fact it has always been more expensive and possibly less jobs on offer.
> 
> Cities like Leeds offered more affordable housing and plenty of jobs. Now second or third generation of immigrants can be quite comfortably off in Leeds.



Harrogate was a slightly flip example: the point I was trying to make was mainly with reference to Leicester, though it applies to plenty of other places.  Twenty years ago the Asian community was largely confined in the poorer areas of the city: now the second or third generation have made their monry and are moving into the wealthier areas of the city and its environs, which were previously almost exclusively white.

It remains a fact that the poorer areas of most cities are more mixed than the wealthier.  IMO it's a good thing that that is changing.


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## moose (Jul 23, 2007)

Is segregation necessarily a bad thing? or is it just that some people like to live near people they feel they have something in common with?


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Jul 23, 2007)

moose said:
			
		

> Is segregation necessarily a bad thing? or is it just that some people like to live near people they feel they have something in common with?



Yes, it's a bad thing.


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## moose (Jul 23, 2007)

I'm interested in what constitutes segregation. Let's take rural Somerset for example. Would you call that racially segregated because there are no black or Asian people there? (even though those communities might not want to move there for other, non-culturally-motivated reasons?)


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## northernhord (Jul 24, 2007)

moose said:
			
		

> Is segregation necessarily a bad thing? or is it just that some people like to live near people they feel they have something in common with?



Asian peeps have moved to Bolton over the years (apart from textile labour reasons) cos members of their extended family lived there or members of their ethnic/cultural community


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## Spion (Jul 24, 2007)

moose said:
			
		

> Is segregation necessarily a bad thing? or is it just that some people like to live near people they feel they have something in common with?


i think if it just hasn't happened because given the time that immigrants have been around they simply haven't had the inclination to go to places that are away from where they've been used to living, then fine. But when you see whole areas of cities being mono ethnic and you know that is at best a reflection of division - that some other people are the 'other' - or at worst its due to racism, then that's a bad thing, IMO


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## dash_two (Jul 24, 2007)

moose said:
			
		

> I'm interested in what constitutes segregation. Let's take rural Somerset for example. Would you call that racially segregated because there are no black or Asian people there? (even though those communities might not want to move there for other, non-culturally-motivated reasons?)



Wouldn't have thought rural Somerset is racially segregated. There's pretty much only one ethnic group living there, ie English people, so there are no ethnic boundaries to speak of. The term 'segregation' describes a situation which has come about deliberately, either as the aggregate of many individual choices of where to live and who to have as a neighbour, or as the result of organised force.


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Jul 24, 2007)

moose said:
			
		

> I'm interested in what constitutes segregation. Let's take rural Somerset for example. Would you call that racially segregated because there are no black or Asian people there? (even though those communities might not want to move there for other, non-culturally-motivated reasons?)



'Separation' of groups may occur naturally when people in the groups, move into specific areas. 'Segregation', imo, implies enforced separation, in that when members of the specific groups try to move out to other areas, they are discouraged or prevented, either overtly, or through more subtle pressures.


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## moose (Jul 24, 2007)

Yup - that's what I think, too. So I'm not sure why people use 'only ever seeing white faces' as an example of segregation. How do you really know whether that is indeed forced segregation, or the fact of people from different races not wanting to live there?


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## UTJF (Aug 3, 2007)

Johnny Canuck2 said:
			
		

> 'Separation' of groups may occur naturally when people in the groups, move into specific areas. 'Segregation', imo, implies enforced separation, in that when members of the specific groups try to move out to other areas, they are discouraged or prevented, either overtly, or through more subtle pressures.



Using that definition I don't think segregation really exists in any of England's core cities.  Towns and the countryside may be a different matter tho...

Seems to me it's more of a city / smaller town and countryside divide than a north / south one.


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