# NF attack on Manchester Pride-please help



## rosa (Aug 26, 2005)

apologies for the cut n paste but this is important

URGENT - The National Front have told Manchester Police they will be holding a counter-demonstration in the centre of Manchester as the city's Pride Parade goes past.

The police have not seen fit to ban the NF event. The City Council strongly backs the Pride Parade, and many councillors are keen that the fascists should not be allowed to even heckle the Parade unopposed.

Unite Against Fascism is calling a counter-demonstration. Come and help drown out the Fascists.

Please pass the information on to friends, and come and join us on Saturday - from 12.30 on Exchange Square (behind Marks & Spencer).


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## poet (Aug 26, 2005)

I'll bring everyone I can.


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## nosos (Aug 26, 2005)

I was planning on heading up to Manchester some point this weekend but I'll do my best to come down earlier for this. 

Fucking cunts.


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## flimsier (Aug 26, 2005)

Wankers.

Incidentally, the UAF demo is a counter-counter-demonstration, isn't it?


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## blamblam (Aug 26, 2005)

NF attacked people on birmingham pride recently didn't they?

I hope they "get their shit kicked in", as a Norn-Ironer would say. It would be especially nice if they got done by a "bunch of poofs"


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## WouldBe (Aug 26, 2005)

icepick said:
			
		

> NF attacked people on birmingham pride recently didn't they?
> 
> I hope they "get their shit kicked in", as a Norn-Ironer would say. It would be especially nice if they got done by a "bunch of poofs"



There's a lot of skinhead poofs in Manc so quite likely.

The NF are only jealous because us poofs get more than they do.


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## Chuck Wilson (Aug 26, 2005)

Should be interesting as the Army are  turning up to recruit , apparantly sexual orientation is a private issue, corporal. Or should that be  not a major issue, general or a general private issue sir.


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## jæd (Aug 26, 2005)

icepick said:
			
		

> NF attacked people on birmingham pride recently didn't they?
> 
> I hope they "get their shit kicked in", as a Norn-Ironer would say. It would be especially nice if they got done by a "bunch of poofs"



They do know that a lot of gay boys spend time in the gym...? Reminds of the time someone try to mug me and my bf, thinking fags are an easy touch. Seeing as how the bf has never hit someone, I was quite surprised at how weak cartlidge is.


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## peppery (Aug 26, 2005)

Is this targetting of the gay community in such a public way a new thing?


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## cogg (Aug 26, 2005)

jæd said:
			
		

> They do know that a lot of gay boys spend time in the gym...? Reminds of the time someone try to mug me and my bf, thinking fags are an easy touch. Seeing as how the bf has never hit someone, I was quite surprised at how weak cartlidge is.



Reminds me of two anti-fascists I knew in the early 1990s, a gay couple, violent as fuck when it came to fascists or homophobes. But why not?
The bit where one of them hit a leading BNP member with a metal chair. Repeatedly. was good.


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## Taxamo Welf (Aug 27, 2005)

peppery said:
			
		

> Is this targetting of the gay community in such a public way a new thing?


er no, but it hasn´t been a common feature of fascist activity in recent years. The BNP keep very quite on sexuality i think nowadays. The furthest they will go is opposing the ´promotion´of homosexuality, which is pretty much in tune with the Tories.

There are plenty of homophobic attacks, by fascists, closet fascists, closet homosexuals and closet homosexual fascists, but public demo´s...

Its fucking mental that anyone, no matter how palstic nazi they are, thinks they can get away with holding a demonstration against the second biggest sexuality in the world in PRESENT DAY England. 

I won´t be back yet but i hope these NF twats get to hear the music. And i hope UAF don´t fuck it up for people who want to MAKE them hear it.


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## behemoth (Aug 27, 2005)

Anyone know what is happening with the NF in Chatham today? Their march was banned but were still planning to hold a rally.


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## Wookey (Aug 27, 2005)

Very few NF there today, but I got all their faces on camera for future reference! The Anti-fash were a lot louder - the Nazis just seemed to stand there sheepishly behind a banner saying Keep Section 28!~

If that's the best message they've got, I reckon we're safe!

Also, I was told that one of the anti-fash had a banner taken off them by police because it said SCUM on it - the cop in question explained to me that it was a spark word, not one they would accept from either side.

I said They disgust me those dicks, he said: Look at the colour of my skin, what do you reckon I think about them?!

He was a black officer.

Anyway, yeah, fuck em, it was dismal, in the very best way.


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## blamblam (Aug 27, 2005)

Taxamo Welf said:
			
		

> er no, but it hasn´t been a common feature of fascist activity in recent years. The BNP keep very quite on sexuality i think nowadays. The furthest they will go is opposing the ´promotion´of homosexuality, which is pretty much in tune with the Tories.


That's what I thought, publicly anyway. But I was reading their "theoretical" mag, Vanguard I think, the other day, and it was just rabid, saying they were all disease-ridden faggots trying to convert everyone's kids and it must be stopped.  Still that was in '97 and they have changed their image since then...


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## Taxamo Welf (Aug 27, 2005)

icepick said:
			
		

> That's what I thought, publicly anyway. But I was reading their "theoretical" mag, Vanguard I think, the other day, and it was just rabid, saying they were all disease-ridden faggots trying to convert everyone's kids and it must be stopped


 The BNP?


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## Ryazan (Aug 28, 2005)

Chuck Wilson said:
			
		

> Should be interesting as the Army are  turning up to recruit , apparantly sexual orientation is a private issue, corporal. Or should that be  not a major issue, general or a general private issue sir.



LMAO.


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## Wookey (Aug 28, 2005)

Yes, that was funny!


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## Wookey (Aug 28, 2005)

Just uploaded our story. My pictures are shit, yes, but the police wouldn't let me too close...

http://www.manchesteronline.co.uk/men/news/s/171/171668_pride_protests_a_damp_squib.html


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Aug 29, 2005)

I'm glad it was a pathetic turn out.

The NF actually ran for parliament in Manchester Central, under the title "National Front - British Bulldog Bites Back"

They didnt do well, but sadly they beat Scargells' Socialist Labour and an Independent Labour guy, which was disturbing.

It is thought they were there for the early part of the count, no one wore a rosette. I think they probably pissed off when they saw how few they were getting. 

I'm told the Bulldog reference is football linked to City, apologies to City fans if that's not true. I know there is a good anti-fash mentality in North Manchester as well as the nazi threat and nazi-friendly pubs.

I'm also reminded of the "Bulldog" NF rag that Bushell used to write for


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Aug 29, 2005)

I'm glad it was a pathetic turn out.

The NF actually ran for parliament in Manchester Central, under the title "National Front - British Bulldog Bites Back"

They didnt do well, but sadly they beat Scargells' Socialist Labour and an Independent Labour guy, which was disturbing.

It is thought they were there for the early part of the count, no one wore a rosette. I think they probably pissed off when they saw how few they were getting. 

I'm told the Bulldog reference is football linked to City, apologies to City fans if that's not true. I know there is a good anti-fash mentality in North Manchester as well as the nazi threat and nazi-friendly pubs.

I'm also reminded of the "Bulldog" NF rag that Bushell used to write for   

But today's show underscores the victory at Altrincham against Le Pen


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## LLETSA (Aug 29, 2005)

taffboy gwyrdd said:
			
		

> I'm told the Bulldog reference is football linked to City, apologies to City fans if that's not true. D





Why, what exactly have you been told?


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## LLETSA (Aug 29, 2005)

taffboy gwyrdd said:
			
		

> I'm also reminded of the "Bulldog" NF rag that Bushell used to write for





When and what did Bushell write for Bulldog?


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## Chuck Wilson (Aug 29, 2005)

taffboy gwyrdd said:
			
		

> I'm glad it was a pathetic turn out.
> 
> The NF actually ran for parliament in Manchester Central, under the title "National Front - British Bulldog Bites Back"
> 
> ...



Which 'nazi friendly ' pubs are these then? And when did Bushell write for Bulldog??


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## LLETSA (Aug 29, 2005)

taffboy gwyrdd said:
			
		

> I'm glad it was a pathetic turn out.
> 
> I know there is a good anti-fash mentality in North Manchester as well as the nazi threat and nazi-friendly pubs.





How do you define this so-called 'Nazi threat' to North Manchester?


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## behemoth (Aug 29, 2005)

Apparently the NF and opponents were outnumbered by 100 police in Chatham. Walked around town and didn't see anything but hordes of shoppers. Most people probably don't know or care one way or the other.


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## Dhimmi (Aug 29, 2005)

Saw this event briefly reported on BBC News24, mainly focused on the GP but also mentioned how the police were part of the parade, handing out recruitment info. The NF wasn't mentioned.


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## LLETSA (Aug 29, 2005)

behemoth said:
			
		

> Apparently the NF and opponents were outnumbered by 100 police in Chatham. Walked around town and didn't see anything but hordes of shoppers. Most people probably don't know or care one way or the other.





The NF are entirely irrelevant except when they are the focus of a proxy vote for the BNP, as has happened in the north-east. 

The likes of UAF overestimate the gullibility of the members of the public who encounter the usual fifty or so people (as has been pointed out before, wherever in the country they appear it is always more or less the same fifty people) who make up the predictable non-events that are NF demos.


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Aug 30, 2005)

LLETSA and Chuck Wilson

Sorry, but the my evidence for the points you ask me on isnt any stronger than hearsay of peoples' opinions who I trust.

I have a mate who was in the anti-nazi movement in the 70s, now a cabbie round north manchester among other things.

He has told me of a couple of pubs frequented by nazis where they are openly tolerated.

He tells me racist and prop BNP opinions from the back of his cab are not uncommon.

The "Bulldog Bites Back" linked to soccer violence came from someone in the pub who seemed to know what he was on about. I guess you dont have to believe that.

I simply cant be arsed to google for proof that Bushell wrote for Bulldog, it was something I heard years ago in a couple of different places.

3 things I'm pretty vague about then and I'd love clarification on.

The only one I dont fully trust is the roots of "british bulldog bites back"

Fascism is far from rife in Manchester, but they are ambitious in the north and not without their sympathisers.


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## LLETSA (Aug 30, 2005)

taffboy gwyrdd said:
			
		

> LLETSA and Chuck Wilson
> 
> Sorry, but the my evidence for the points you ask me on isnt any stronger than hearsay of peoples' opinions who I trust.
> 
> ...





What a bizarre post.  Why bother, if all you can come up with as regards evidence for your earlier assertions is 'hearsay' from anonymous individuals?

Pubs 'frequented by nazis'?  What, in full Third Reich regalia?  Openly tolerated?  As in everybody knowing that they are 'nazis' and turning a blind eye?  Or what? You don't make it clear whether 'Nazis' have made the pubs their own or whether far right individuals and groups simply drink in certain places-in which case most other customers might not know their political affiliations, or even care about them. 

'Racist and pro-BNP opinions are not unknown?'  Hardly a revelation. Over the last few years pro-BNP opinion has been growing steadily, while racists have always been widespread and do not necessarily support the BNP.  Neither phenomenon is particularly unique to north Manchester. Nor has the BNP received strong electoral support in north Manchester so far.  In fact, they have hardly even stood in elections there.  (I assume you are referring to north Manchester as in the northern suburbs of the city, as opposed to Oldham, which is a separate town with different conditions and traditions.)

'Somebody in the pub who seemed to know what he was on about?'  Things are not always what they seem though, are they? 

If you 'can't be arsed proving that Bushell wrote for Bulldog,' why state it in the first place?  Hasn't the left got enough cardboard hate figures to be wanking on about already? 

As I said, bizarre.


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Aug 30, 2005)

LLETSA

I posted the stuff becuase I thought it was useful and pretty reliable info.

I've only been honest about the sources, and you are free to scoff as you have.

By "nazi pubs", I mean pubs where BNP supporters and activists are regulars, as are their views which are rarely questioned.

There are certainly pubs in Manchester environs where fascists meet to plot fascist deeds, not just in the north either (no, I didnt mean Oldham)


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## exosculate (Aug 30, 2005)

Wankers - If I was closer I would be there.

Would be good to get as many people out as possible if they are close enough.


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## Chuck Wilson (Aug 30, 2005)

Bushell never wrote for Bulldog.
There are no 'nazi' friendly pubs, every time either the NF,WNP or BNP have met in a  pub they have never been booked again.
Bulldog had nothing to do with City supporters.You will find that you had both Man Utd and Man City supporters amongst both the fash and the antifash in the 70s,80s and early 90s.
Yes I expect some people who get in the back of  some cabs  and drink in some pubs have some racist views .

Have you ever actually come across any of the fash locally??


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## LLETSA (Aug 30, 2005)

exosculate said:
			
		

> Wankers - If I was closer I would be there.





"Hold me back!  I said hold me back, will you?!"


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## LLETSA (Aug 30, 2005)

taffboy gwyrdd said:
			
		

> LLETSA
> 
> I posted the stuff becuase I thought it was useful and pretty reliable info.





That's the point-it wasn't really info at all.  You said yourself that it was merely hearsay.


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## behemoth (Aug 30, 2005)

taffboy gwyrdd said:
			
		

> By "nazi pubs", I mean pubs where BNP supporters and activists are regulars, as are their views which are rarely questioned.


Questioned by who? The landlady?

As for Bushell, are you confusing Bulldog with Socialist Worker, or Sniffin Glue?

http://www.garry-bushell.co.uk/BIOGRAPHY/INDEX.ASP


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## exosculate (Aug 30, 2005)

LLETSA said:
			
		

> "Hold me back!  I said hold me back, will you?!"



good boy


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## audiotech (Sep 1, 2005)

LLETSA said:
			
		

> "Hold me back!  I said hold me back, will you?!"



I would be interested to know if you have ever been involved in anti-fascist activity?


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## LLETSA (Sep 1, 2005)

*Heigh-ho Silver!*




			
				MC5 said:
			
		

> I would be interested to know if you have ever been involved in anti-fascist activity?





1980-91 (ish) was the period during which I was active on the left.  Like most people, I was involved in lots of different activities, but whenever the issue of fascism came to the fore then anti-fascism became a priority.  

But I see you're on your high horse (once more) because of what I say in this thread.  And you are right if you suspect that I would not have been there.  Why?  Because, first and foremost, the NF are, these days, a joke organisation; the main threat it represents seems to be, if recent happenings are anything to go by, to the people that get involved in it. What they actually say and do doesn't matter all that much.  Secondly, these kind of activities are only of any relevance to the participants: the NF can stand behind their police guardians and grimace and gurn self-righteously, and hypocritically, about moral degeneration, while the UAF crowd can bleat at them through megaphones from behind their own police guardians.  Meanwhile, the bemused shoppers will mostly wonder what the bleedin' 'ell it's all about. As for the 'threatened' gay community, I doubt that, in the tens of thousands in which they participate in the Manchester event every August, they would have been all that intimidated by a dozen or two socially inadequate boneheads.  

As it happens, Mrs LLETSA and I were in Manchester on Saturday.  However, the UAF demo was off our list of priorities, as she went off to visit my old mam and I went to watch City march on towards Champions League glory, joining her and some old mates for a drink later before getting the train home. 

I notice that you, MC5, are in the vanguard of those who are keenest on demanding to know an individual poster's level of activity-as if what they say in their posts is dependent in any way on what they actually do.  You ought to remember that this is simply a forum for debate, where all that matters is what a poster says, nothing else.  And whereas certain posters can be interesting when they relate anecdotes about their political activities, these carry most power when they are there to reinforce political points, and then only when they make it clear that the poster must indisputably have been present at the event to which they refer.  You, however, are among those whose references to their own activities are only ever in the vaguest terms-and completely unverifiable.


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## exosculate (Sep 1, 2005)

LLETSA said:
			
		

> But I see you're on your high horse (once more) because of what I say in this thread.  And you are right if you suspect that I would not have been there.  Why?  Because, first and foremost, the NF are, these days, a joke organisation; the main threat it represents seems to be, if recent happenings are anything to go by, to the people that get involved in it. What they actually say and do doesn't matter all that much.  Secondly, these kind of activities are only of any relevance to the participants: the NF can stand behind their police guardians and grimace and gurn self-righteously, and hypocritically, about moral degeneration, while the UAF crowd can bleat at them through megaphones from behind their own police guardians.




You are a prize prick!


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## LLETSA (Sep 1, 2005)

*Exosculate demonstrates his grasp of irony*




			
				exosculate said:
			
		

> You are a prize prick!





Staggering political insight.  Worthy of certain anarchos who frequent these boards.


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## Taxamo Welf (Sep 2, 2005)

exosculate said:
			
		

> You are a prize prick!


  

in what way? whats wrong with that particular paragraph?


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## exosculate (Sep 2, 2005)

LLETSA said:
			
		

> Staggering political insight.  Worthy of certain anarchos who frequent these boards.




You are not worth responding to.


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## exosculate (Sep 2, 2005)

exosculate said:
			
		

> You are not worth responding to.




Its one thing to think its an irrelevance to turn up at something like this. To go out of your way to say how one knows so much better than everybody else with a smug, pompous, patronising and superior I know better because I'm so much cleverer than you type approach is utter condescending bollocks.


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## knopf (Sep 2, 2005)

I can see the tabloid headlines now: -

*Anti-fash thread in descent into willy-waving shocker*

*gets coat*


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## past caring (Sep 2, 2005)

Except none of that was contained in the post, was it?


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## Herbert Read (Sep 2, 2005)

LLETSA said:
			
		

> Staggering political insight.  Worthy of certain anarchos who frequent these boards.



Actually LLETSA for once i am in agreement with you regarding anti fash cativity being a pantomine


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## exosculate (Sep 2, 2005)

Herbert Read said:
			
		

> Actually LLETSA for once i am in agreement with you regarding anti fash cativity being a pantomine




Oh no I'm not.


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## LLETSA (Sep 2, 2005)

exosculate said:
			
		

> Its one thing to think its an irrelevance to turn up at something like this. To go out of your way to say how one knows so much better than everybody else with a smug, pompous, patronising and superior I know better because I'm so much cleverer than you type approach is utter condescending bollocks.





Never went out of me way-I was sitting right here.


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## LLETSA (Sep 2, 2005)

Herbert Read said:
			
		

> Actually LLETSA for once i am in agreement with you regarding anti fash cativity being a pantomine





's nihilism in action....


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## LLETSA (Sep 2, 2005)

exosculate said:
			
		

> You are not worth responding to.





But you did respond.  With a load of old nothing, maybe, but it was a response.

If you have nothing to say to me, how about enlightening us with your own opinions?  Or do you prefer to indiscriminately cheer on every Trot routine in the name of anti-fascism, regardless of their effectiveness?


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## exosculate (Sep 2, 2005)

LLETSA said:
			
		

> But you did respond.  With a load of old nothing, maybe, but it was a response.
> 
> If you have nothing to say to me, how about enlightening us with your own opinions?  Or do you prefer to indiscriminately cheer on every Trot routine in the name of anti-fascism, regardless of their effectiveness?




I responded to myself, for the benefit of others, with a whole lot of something about your unbearable superiority complex. I don't cheer on any 'group' I believe countering fash demos is valid. I believe you to be clueless. Probably right wing too.


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## hibee (Sep 2, 2005)

exosculate said:
			
		

> I believe you to be clueless. Probably right wing too.



Did you hear that from a bloke in a taxi too?


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## exosculate (Sep 2, 2005)

hibee said:
			
		

> Did you hear that from a bloke in a taxi too?




Who the fuck are you?


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## LLETSA (Sep 2, 2005)

*Bingo!*




			
				exosculate said:
			
		

> I believe you to be clueless. Probably right wing too.





When you get accused of being right-wing then you know you've arrived.

It's been a long time coming.


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## LLETSA (Sep 2, 2005)

exosculate said:
			
		

> I responded to myself, for the benefit of others, with a whole lot of something about your unbearable superiority complex.





You responded to me before that-and then claimed I wasn't worth responding to.  (Not that I care.)


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## exosculate (Sep 2, 2005)

LLETSA said:
			
		

> When you get accused of being in right-wing then you know you've arrived.
> 
> It's been a long time coming.




Why don't you go shopping with the Mrs you cretin!


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## LLETSA (Sep 2, 2005)

*For somebody who accuses others of cluelessness....*




			
				exosculate said:
			
		

> I I don't cheer on any 'group' I believe countering fash demos is valid.





Care to expand on this statement?


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## LLETSA (Sep 2, 2005)

*Rock and roll!*




			
				exosculate said:
			
		

> Who the fuck are you?





You are clearly one of the hard men of the left, exosculate.


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## exosculate (Sep 2, 2005)

LLETSA said:
			
		

> Care to expand on this statement?




More pompousity. Keep going.


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## LLETSA (Sep 2, 2005)

exosculate said:
			
		

> More pompousity. Keep going.





Asking somebody who has criticised you for what you're saying-without actually explaining why they disagree-to come forth with his opinion is hardly pomposity, tovarisch.


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## LLETSA (Sep 2, 2005)

exosculate said:
			
		

> Why don't you go shopping with the Mrs you cretin!





I never go shopping with the Mrs-she expressly forbids it.


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## Herbert Read (Sep 2, 2005)

LLETSA said:
			
		

> I never go shopping with the Mrs-she expressly forbids it.



hes to pedantic and patronising..  

does my bum look big, imagine the conversation


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## exosculate (Sep 2, 2005)

LLETSA said:
			
		

> Asking somebody who has criticised you for what you're saying-without actually explaining why they disagree-to come forth with his opinion is hardly pomposity, tovarisch.




You have been pompous from the beginning, there is no point in saying more than I already have. What would be the point. Your only motive is smug patronisation. Amusing but sad in equal measure.


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## LLETSA (Sep 2, 2005)

exosculate said:
			
		

> You have been pompous from the beginning, there is no point in saying more than I already have. What would be the point. Your only motive is smug patronisation. Amusing but sad in equal measure.





In other words you have nothing to say. 

'No point in saying more than I already have'?  But you have said nowt matie-just chucked around peurile insults.


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## exosculate (Sep 2, 2005)

LLETSA said:
			
		

> You are clearly one of the hard men of the left, exosculate.




You are clearly a prick.


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## exosculate (Sep 2, 2005)

LLETSA said:
			
		

> In other words you have nothing to say.
> 
> 'No point in saying more than I already have'?  But you have said nowt matie-just chucked around peurile insults.




Nothing to say to a buffoon - got it in one.


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## exosculate (Sep 2, 2005)

Herbert Read said:
			
		

> hes to pedantic and patronising..
> 
> does my bum look big, imagine the conversation




Who are you - the fan club?


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## LLETSA (Sep 2, 2005)

Herbert Read said:
			
		

> hes to pedantic and patronising..
> 
> does my bum look big, imagine the conversation





Tell you what-an hour round the shops with me and she'd be ready to take on the NF on her own.


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## exosculate (Sep 2, 2005)

LLETSA said:
			
		

> Tell you what-an hour round the shops with me and she'd be ready to take on the NF on her own.




She'd probably be doing collections for them.


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## LLETSA (Sep 2, 2005)

*He loves me really!*




			
				exosculate said:
			
		

> Who are you - the fan club?





He is!  And he set it up without a word of prompting from me.

Well he does believe in spontaneous action after all....


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## exosculate (Sep 2, 2005)

LLETSA said:
			
		

> He is!  And he set it up without a word of prompting from me.
> 
> Well he does believe in spontaneous action after all....




Thats your Mrs - admit it.


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## LLETSA (Sep 2, 2005)

*Anything but politics, exoscy lad*




			
				exosculate said:
			
		

> Nothing to say to a buffoon - got it in one.





As I said, nothing but peurile insults.


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## exosculate (Sep 2, 2005)

puerile


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## exosculate (Sep 2, 2005)

Anyway I'm off - you make me laugh. (In a good way)


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## LLETSA (Sep 2, 2005)

exosculate said:
			
		

> puerile





Vital contribution to debating anti-facism from exosculate-aged 9.


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## exosculate (Sep 2, 2005)

LLETSA said:
			
		

> Vital contribution to debating anti-facism from exosculate-aged 9.




Sorry I was being _patronising_ in a bid to _relate_ to you.

See ya


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## past caring (Sep 2, 2005)

You come out of this looking fucking awful, exo. Somebody disagrees with you and you throw your fucking toys out the pram? Jesus.


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## rednblack (Sep 2, 2005)

what a shit thread


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## exosculate (Sep 2, 2005)

past caring said:
			
		

> You come out of this looking fucking awful, exo. Somebody disagrees with you and you throw your fucking toys out the pram? Jesus.



Don't care how I look, never have, never will. When I think people are idiots it becomes a game to me - a laugh.


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## exosculate (Sep 2, 2005)

rednblack said:
			
		

> what a shit thread




I thought it was amusing.


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## Taxamo Welf (Sep 2, 2005)

exosculate said:
			
		

> I believe you to be clueless. Probably right wing too.


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## Taxamo Welf (Sep 2, 2005)

past caring said:
			
		

> You come out of this looking fucking awful, exo. Somebody disagrees with you and you throw your fucking toys out the pram? Jesus.


seconded. Both look pretty silly tho, why on earth did you keep responding LLETSA?   

still the bare facts are: someone claimed Bushell wrote for Bulldog. Mwahaahaa!


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## rosa (Sep 2, 2005)

rednblack said:
			
		

> what a shit thread


you might prefer smashthestate's thread  in't northern forum. Her threads are usually better than mine.


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## danbreen (Sep 2, 2005)

peppery said:
			
		

> Is this targetting of the gay community in such a public way a new thing?



No, they tried to attack a gay march in Nottingham in the late 90s'. A huge afa turnout made them think twice though.


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## rednblack (Sep 2, 2005)

rosa said:
			
		

> you might prefer smashthestate's thread  in't northern forum. Her threads are usually better than mine.



fairplay, not your fault anyway...


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## rosa (Sep 2, 2005)

rednblack said:
			
		

> fairplay, not your fault anyway...


It probably is for starting a thread here,now i remember why i stopped posting in the politics forums.too much hassle dodging the toys being thrown out of prams.


----------



## Larry O'Hara (Sep 2, 2005)

Taxamo Welf said:
			
		

> still the bare facts are: someone claimed Bushell wrote for Bulldog. Mwahaahaa!



1) Not only did Bushell not write for Bulldog, they slagged him off (have a copy deep in the vaults)

2) However....when he did a feature on down & outs in the 1990's, his bodyguard, featured in a press photo sleeping in a nearby box, was none other than current rump NF leader Terry Blackham (he of rocket-launcher found in car on way to N Ireland fame): fancy that...


----------



## rednblack (Sep 2, 2005)

Larry O'Hara said:
			
		

> 1) Not only did Bushell not write for Bulldog, they slagged him off (have a copy deep in the vaults)
> 
> 2) However....when he did a feature on down & outs in the 1990's, his bodyguard, featured in a press photo sleeping in a nearby box, was none other than current rump NF leader Terry Blackham (he of rocket-launcher found in car on way to N Ireland fame): fancy that...



hmm interesting... i seem to remember that well known source of facts 'searchlight' claiming that bushell was a regular visitor to the bnp bookshop in welling


----------



## past caring (Sep 2, 2005)

"Rocket launcher"? I thought it was an old Webley....


----------



## Chuck Wilson (Sep 2, 2005)

rednblack said:
			
		

> hmm interesting... i seem to remember that well known source of facts 'searchlight' claiming that bushell was a regular visitor to the bnp bookshop in welling



Didn't Searchlight end up retracting a story about him attending a Friends of Oswald Moseley dinner?


----------



## exosculate (Sep 2, 2005)

Taxamo Welf said:
			
		

> seconded. Both look pretty silly tho, why on earth did you keep responding LLETSA?
> 
> still the bare facts are: someone claimed Bushell wrote for Bulldog. Mwahaahaa!




Don't tell me - its the cliquey club. Its you lot who all backslap that make me laugh. Same as the Trots when all is said and done.


----------



## exosculate (Sep 2, 2005)

Taxamo Welf said:
			
		

>


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 2, 2005)

exosculate said:
			
		

>


----------



## exosculate (Sep 2, 2005)

Pickman's model said:
			
		

>


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 2, 2005)

exosculate said:
			
		

>


----------



## exosculate (Sep 2, 2005)

Pickman's model said:
			
		

>


----------



## audiotech (Sep 3, 2005)

*Pony and Trap*




			
				Mr LLETSA said:
			
		

> 1980-91 (ish) was the period during which I was active on the left.  Like most people, I was involved in lots of different activities, but whenever the issue of fascism came to the fore then anti-fascism became a priority.



Not a priority for you now then with fascists in council chambers?




			
				Mr LLETSA said:
			
		

> But I see you're on your high horse (once more) because of what I say in this thread.  And you are right if you suspect that I would not have been there.  Why?  Because, first and foremost, the NF are, these days, a joke organisation; the main threat it represents seems to be, if recent happenings are anything to go by, to the people that get involved in it. What they actually say and do doesn't matter all that much.  Secondly, these kind of activities are only of any relevance to the participants: the NF can stand behind their police guardians and grimace and gurn self-righteously, and hypocritically, about moral degeneration, while the UAF crowd can bleat at them through megaphones from behind their own police guardians.  Meanwhile, the bemused shoppers will mostly wonder what the bleedin' 'ell it's all about. As for the 'threatened' gay community, I doubt that, in the tens of thousands in which they participate in the Manchester event every August, they would have been all that intimidated by a dozen or two socially inadequate boneheads.



I don't own a horse.

I don't expect you to be anywhere.

The NF may look a joke close up, but when they threaten the gay community it is important that the left are seen to respond to that. Recently, fascists attacked and assaulted people in Sweden who were preparing for the annual gay pride march there. On the day of the parade fifty supporters of the National Socialist Front held a demonstration. Meanwhile, 20,000 people marched on the Pride parade.




			
				Mr LLETSA said:
			
		

> As it happens, Mrs LLETSA and I were in Manchester on Saturday.  However, the UAF demo was off our list of priorities, as she went off to visit my old mam and I went to watch City march on towards Champions League glory, joining her and some old mates for a drink later before getting the train home.
> 
> I notice that you, MC5, are in the vanguard of those who are keenest on demanding to know an individual poster's level of activity-as if what they say in their posts is dependent in any way on what they actually do.  You ought to remember that this is simply a forum for debate, where all that matters is what a poster says, nothing else.  And whereas certain posters can be interesting when they relate anecdotes about their political activities, these carry most power when they are there to reinforce political points, and then only when they make it clear that the poster must indisputably have been present at the event to which they refer.  You, however, are among those whose references to their own activities are only ever in the vaguest terms-and completely unverifiable.



I was interested in your anti-fascist activity, not for any 'vanguardist' twist, but to try and guage as to whether your knowledge on the subject had any weight. The Jury's still out, as the evidence put forward is rather flimsy.


----------



## LLETSA (Sep 3, 2005)

MC5 said:
			
		

> I was interested in your anti-fascist activity, not for any 'vanguardist' twist, but to try and guage as to whether your knowledge on the subject had any weight. The Jury's still out, as the evidence put forward is rather flimsy.





No more flimsy than your own or 90% of others who post on boards like this.


----------



## audiotech (Sep 3, 2005)

LLETSA said:
			
		

> No more flimsy than your own or 90% of others who post on boards like this.



My experience is real. Whose the other 10%?


----------



## LLETSA (Sep 3, 2005)

MC5 said:
			
		

> My experience is real. Whose the other 10%?





My experience is real too. However, the nature of internet forums is that you just have to take people at face value. For example, do you remember that there were people on the old RA board who used to think you were an SWP full-timer? (Can't think where they got the SWPness from....) I don't know if you are or not, and nor do I care. You no more go into specific details about yourself than I, nor the vast majority of people on these boards, do.  As I said somewhere above, you refer to your activities only in the vaguest of terms.  This does not stop you, however, from indulging your condesending habit of taking the moral high ground with people with whom you have political disagreements.  You seem to think that constantly bringing up your 'long record of political involvement' (as said, never detailed) gives you some kind of privileged insight into certain subjects and the right to imply that others' opinions carry less weight than your own.  And it isn't as if you usually have anything to add other than the time-honoured ANL/ UAF 'expose the Nazis' twaddle. 

I've already said that there are those on here whose personal anecdotes do go into detail in ways that make it clear that they must have been present at events they are describing.  This obviously adds authority to their comments.  I don't know if it amounts to 10% of posters, however; 90% was just a figure of speech (or whatever you call it.)


----------



## Taxamo Welf (Sep 3, 2005)

danbreen said:
			
		

> No, they tried to attack a gay march in Nottingham in the late 90s'. A huge afa turnout made them think twice though.


afa in the late 90's...? Wasn't it defeunct by then? or do you mean assorted antis? Not a attack, a question - i don't know cos i am young. 

PS larry o'hara quoted me. Moment of glory!

PPS exosculate: like, whatEVERRRR! 

MC5: LLETSA is clearly to anyone watching closely, an IWCA supporter on the issue of antifascism. The discussion you are about to have is older than dinosaurs grannies.


----------



## LLETSA (Sep 3, 2005)

*MC5:  Head like a sieve?*




			
				Taxamo Welf said:
			
		

> MC5: LLETSA is clearly to anyone watching closely, an IWCA supporter on the issue of antifascism. The discussion you are about to have is older than dinosaurs grannies.





Well exactly.  That's why I didn't bother replying to those parts of his post. Not only are the answers to his questions implicit in other posts in this thread, he has endlessly debated such matters with myself and others both here and elsewhere.  

I presume that he can remember this.  Or maybe he took a kick on the head from his tall carthorse?


----------



## exosculate (Sep 3, 2005)

LLETSA said:
			
		

> Well exactly.  That's why I didn't bother replying to those parts of his post. Not only are the answers to his questions implicit in other posts in this thread, he has endlessly debated such matters with myself and others both here and elsewhere.
> 
> I presume that he can remember this.  Or maybe he took a kick on the head from his tall carthorse?




And the backslappery goes on.


----------



## exosculate (Sep 3, 2005)

MC5 said:
			
		

> My experience is real. Whose the other 10%?




Presumably the other 10% are members of the backslap fraternity.


----------



## LLETSA (Sep 3, 2005)

*However....*




			
				MC5 said:
			
		

> The NF may look a joke close up, but when they threaten the gay community it is important that the left are seen to respond to that.





Can't resist.

Did the five of them that reportedly turned up threaten the gay community in any significant way?  Last I heard, Britain's gays were not exactly traumatized by the actions of the part-time goosesteppers.

Hardly unpredictable that the NF turnout was so small, was it?  They have been doing this for some time now. They say they are going to do this or that and the Trot left (and some anarchos) jump to attention with a look of outrage on collective fizzog.  

Who is laughing at who?


----------



## LLETSA (Sep 3, 2005)

*Straw men*




			
				exosculate said:
			
		

> Presumably the other 10% are members of the backslap fraternity.





I've already answered this in my own (ahem) 'right-wing' fashion.

Try to stay awake.


----------



## exosculate (Sep 3, 2005)

LLETSA said:
			
		

> I've already answered this in my own (ahem) 'right-wing' fashion.
> 
> Try to stay awake.




You're becoming as honest as your tagline.


----------



## LLETSA (Sep 3, 2005)

*Are you being kept in?*




			
				exosculate said:
			
		

> You're becoming as honest as your tagline.





I can see you're in 'mischievous' mood again, sunshine.

Ah well-at least your mam hasn't unplugged your internet connection, so there's that.  Even if you would rather be down the shops with your mates, swigging cheap cider and abusing passers-by (from a safe distance.)

Anti-social behaviour on-line hasn't quite got the frisson, has it, you little cyber hooligan?


----------



## exosculate (Sep 3, 2005)

LLETSA said:
			
		

> I can see you're in 'mischievous' mood again, sunshine.
> 
> Ah well-at least your mam hasn't unplugged your internet connection, so there's that.  Even if you would rather be down the shops with your mates, swigging cheap cider and abusing passers-by (from a safe distance.)
> 
> Anti-social behaviour on-line hasn't quite got the frisson, has it, you little cyber hooligan?




How childish!


----------



## LLETSA (Sep 3, 2005)

exosculate said:
			
		

> How childish!





Oh my dear Oscar, I wish I'd said that!


----------



## exosculate (Sep 3, 2005)

LLETSA said:
			
		

> Oh my dear Oscar, I wish I'd said that!



hehe


----------



## hibee (Sep 4, 2005)

LLETSA said:
			
		

> Oh my dear Oscar, I wish I'd said that!



I'd rather see Dave Lee Travis play Macbeth


----------



## Taxamo Welf (Sep 4, 2005)

LLETSA said:
			
		

> Who is laughing at who?


er, we're still laughing at them. Do you think the NF are sitting there going ''Ho ho ho, we got 5 ppl to a national demo! Ha ha ha how great!''

and exowhateryournameis: i do not actually agree with lletsa on antifascism, i was just pointing out his well respected and well trodden viewpoint. So much for backslapping - i respect anyone who is can post inteligent and well put material. I personally would have tried to make it to the NF event (no, not as a fronter ha ha) if i had been in England, tho we would proabably have assessed whether it was worth it first. I think militant antifascism still has its place, and i don't think i'm hysteric for saying that either. Its not prorit7y number one, but its important.


----------



## LLETSA (Sep 5, 2005)

Taxamo Welf said:
			
		

> er, we're still laughing at them. Do you think the NF are sitting there going ''Ho ho ho, we got 5 ppl to a national demo! Ha ha ha how great!''





Think more carefully about it all, Tax.


----------



## LLETSA (Sep 5, 2005)

*"It's a paradox, yer daft cow!"*




			
				hibee said:
			
		

> I'd rather see Dave Lee Travis play Macbeth





Did it have too much false opposition or was it too paradox for yer?


----------



## hibee (Sep 5, 2005)

*"You've got shit shoes on, yer shitty-shoed bastard..."*

"Me name's LLETSA, support Man City, like a bit of a debate, row, fight, punch some bloke's nose in... I like life, really"


----------



## LLETSA (Sep 5, 2005)

hibee said:
			
		

> "Me name's LLETSA, support Man City, like a bit of a debate, row, fight, punch some bloke's nose in... I like life, really"





"Hey thank's Bob.  Bob the blob.  Fat blobby bastard Bob...."


----------



## audiotech (Sep 5, 2005)

LLETSA said:
			
		

> Can't resist.
> 
> Did the five of them that reportedly turned up threaten the gay community in any significant way?  Last I heard, Britain's gays were not exactly traumatized by the actions of the part-time goosesteppers.



Considering that the gay community were not so long ago being attacked with nail bombs, it's good to see their involvement in opposing any fascists who crawl out of the woodwork.


----------



## audiotech (Sep 5, 2005)

LLETSA said:
			
		

> Well exactly.  That's why I didn't bother replying to those parts of his post. Not only are the answers to his questions implicit in other posts in this thread, he has endlessly debated such matters with myself and others both here and elsewhere.
> 
> I presume that he can remember this.  Or maybe he took a kick on the head from his tall carthorse?



My head hurts! Bleedin' Hercules.


----------



## audiotech (Sep 5, 2005)

Taxamo Welf said:
			
		

> MC5: LLETSA is clearly to anyone watching closely, an IWCA supporter on the issue of antifascism. The discussion you are about to have is older than dinosaurs grannies.



I am aware of that thanks. I wish he'd hurry up and join.


----------



## audiotech (Sep 5, 2005)

LLETSA said:
			
		

> My experience is real too. However, the nature of internet forums is that you just have to take people at face value. For example, do you remember that there were people on the old RA board who used to think you were an SWP full-timer? (Can't think where they got the SWPness from....) I don't know if you are or not, and nor do I care. You no more go into specific details about yourself than I, nor the vast majority of people on these boards, do.  As I said somewhere above, you refer to your activities only in the vaguest of terms.  This does not stop you, however, from indulging your condesending habit of taking the moral high ground with people with whom you have political disagreements.  You seem to think that constantly bringing up your 'long record of political involvement' (as said, never detailed) gives you some kind of privileged insight into certain subjects and the right to imply that others' opinions carry less weight than your own.  And it isn't as if you usually have anything to add other than the time-honoured ANL/ UAF 'expose the Nazis' twaddle.



SWP full-timer me? Don't make me laugh, too radical.

Condescension, patronisation? It's all subjective.

My political involvement does give me some insight. I'm not privileged though. 

My arguments have been more sophisticated than just the 'expose the Nazi's' angle.


----------



## Compo StHeap (Sep 5, 2005)

LLETSA said:
			
		

> When and what did Bushell write for Bulldog?



i know he used to write in the sun,  and he was influential in Oi music.  People thought it was right wing music but it never was,  it was just the working class letting off steam.


----------



## audiotech (Sep 5, 2005)

*flares and slippers*




			
				Compo StHeap said:
			
		

> i know he used to write in the sun,  and he was influential in Oi music.  People thought it was right wing music but it never was,  it was just the working class letting off steam.



Choosing Nicky Crane (fascist bonehead) on the cover of one LP of Oi music didn't help clear up the confusion.

I thought the Cockney Rejects were the more interesting of this genre.


----------



## LLETSA (Sep 5, 2005)

*Well I never!*




			
				MC5 said:
			
		

> I am aware of that thanks. I wish he'd hurry up and join.





Sorry.  I hadn't realised that not only had you joined yourself-you're now membership secretary....


----------



## exosculate (Sep 5, 2005)

LLETSA said:
			
		

> Sorry.  I hadn't realised that not only had you joined yourself-you're now membership secretary....


Can I join -I know what I'm on about?


----------



## LLETSA (Sep 5, 2005)

MC5 said:
			
		

> Considering that the gay community were not so long ago being attacked with nail bombs, it's good to see their involvement in opposing any fascists who crawl out of the woodwork.





Of the hundred thousand-plus gays who participated in the events of that weekend, how many would have even been aware of the NF 'threat', let alone flocked to the, reportedly, fifty-strong UAF protest? (Looks like less in the photo.)


----------



## audiotech (Sep 5, 2005)

LLETSA said:
			
		

> Sorry.  I hadn't realised that not only had you joined yourself-you're now membership secretary....



Ooo, good! When you do join does that mean I can expell you?


----------



## exosculate (Sep 5, 2005)

LLETSA said:
			
		

> Of the hundred thousand-plus gays who participated in the events of that weekend, how many would have even been aware of the NF 'threat', let alone flocked to the, reportedly, fifty-strong UAF protest? (Looks like less in the photo.)




Hitler - member number 55 would have loved you!


----------



## exosculate (Sep 5, 2005)

MC5 said:
			
		

> Ooo, good! When you do join does that mean I can expell you?




Let him become an external faction. It can be called 'Oak trees have always been big and acorns don't exist'


----------



## audiotech (Sep 5, 2005)

LLETSA said:
			
		

> Of the hundred thousand-plus gays who participated in the events of that weekend, how many would have even been aware of the NF 'threat', let alone flocked to the, reportedly, fifty-strong UAF protest? (Looks like less in the photo.)



There's always Maine Road.


----------



## LLETSA (Sep 5, 2005)

MC5 said:
			
		

> SWP full-timer me? Don't make me laugh, too radical.
> 
> Condescension, patronisation? It's all subjective.
> 
> ...





 Yes: so excessively radical that you argue their line on most issues.


----------



## exosculate (Sep 5, 2005)

keep going


----------



## LLETSA (Sep 5, 2005)

*MC5: still feeling effects of carthorse's kick*




			
				MC5 said:
			
		

> There's always Maine Road.





No there isn't.  Not anymore.  

On the ball (ha!) as usual MC5.


----------



## LLETSA (Sep 5, 2005)

exosculate said:
			
		

> Let him become an external faction. It can be called 'Oak trees have always been big and acorns don't exist'





That you imply that the present day NF can emulate Hitler's Nazis says everything one needs to know about your politics, matie.


----------



## exosculate (Sep 5, 2005)

LLETSA said:
			
		

> That you imply that the present day NF can emulate Hitler's Nazis says everything one needs to know about your politics, matie.



Things change quickly matey - it says far more about yours.


----------



## LLETSA (Sep 5, 2005)

exosculate said:
			
		

> Things change quickly matey - it says far more about yours.





Go on then-enlighten me with your theories as to how the likes of the NF are going to 'change things so quickly' that they sweep all before them and set up the Fourth Reich on UK soil.

(Bet you fob me off with some trite one-liner.)


----------



## exosculate (Sep 5, 2005)

LLETSA said:
			
		

> Go on then-enlighten me with your theories as to how the likes of the NF are going to 'change things so quickly' that they sweep all before them and set up the Fourth Reich on UK soil.
> 
> (Bet you fob me off with some trite one-liner.)




Who do you think i am Mystic Peg?


----------



## LLETSA (Sep 5, 2005)

*Told you it'd be a trite one-liner*




			
				exosculate said:
			
		

> Who do you think i am Mystic Peg?





Well you're the one who keeps trying to justify cross-class, liberal anti-fascism by insisting that 'things can change quickly', so I assume that you have some ideas regarding how Britain's existing fascist organisations are likely to use events to grab power.


----------



## exosculate (Sep 5, 2005)

LLETSA said:
			
		

> Well you're the one who keeps trying to justify cross-class, liberal anti-fascism by insisting that 'things can change quickly', so I assume that you have some ideas regarding how Britain's existing fascist organisations are likely to use events to grab power.




Its about the history of the past not prediction of the future, fash groups are always dangerous. Read some history of early fascism in Germany and then come back to me.


----------



## exosculate (Sep 5, 2005)

And your trite one-liner proves you're more mystic than I.


----------



## audiotech (Sep 5, 2005)

LLETSA said:
			
		

> Yes: so excessively radical that you argue their line on most issues.



Examples?


----------



## audiotech (Sep 5, 2005)

LLETSA said:
			
		

> No there isn't.  Not anymore.
> 
> On the ball (ha!) as usual MC5.



What! They've moved? Oh, the memories of Man City matches, with guttersnipes attacking the opposition with knitting needles.


----------



## Compo StHeap (Sep 5, 2005)

MC5 said:
			
		

> Choosing Nicky Crane (fascist bonehead) on the cover of one LP of Oi music didn't help clear up the confusion.
> 
> I thought the Cockney Rejects were the more interesting of this genre.



yeah,  i suppose you've got a point there.

What are you a hamster then?


----------



## LLETSA (Sep 6, 2005)

*Back to the future*




			
				exosculate said:
			
		

> Its about the history of the past not prediction of the future, fash groups are always dangerous. Read some history of early fascism in Germany and then come back to me.





This stuff is just cliche, saving you the bother of thinking for yourself.

No substance.

And  I have never read any history that wasn't about the past.  Being about the past is what makes it history.

Way past your bedtime maybe?


----------



## LLETSA (Sep 6, 2005)

MC5 said:
			
		

> Examples?





Try countless posts of yours (in your various guises) on the old RA board.


----------



## LLETSA (Sep 6, 2005)

MC5 said:
			
		

> What! They've moved? Oh, the memories of Man City matches, with guttersnipes attacking the opposition with knitting needles.





Who are you to call City players guttersnipes?  Did they keep the knitting needles in their socks?


----------



## exosculate (Sep 6, 2005)

LLETSA said:
			
		

> This stuff is just cliche, saving you the bother of thinking for yourself.
> 
> No substance.
> 
> ...




You make no sense lletsy. Anything you don't like is cliche, you have no grasp of history, don't blame me for that. I only emphasised the past to show others that your request for others to get out the crystal ball is totally absurd.

Your argument comes down to this. Despite history suggesting otherwise, you know best, and if you say its no biggy then it must be right. Even though you suggest no evidence for your shallow opinions at any point. Whilst accusing others endlessly of your own shortcomings.

You are amusing i'll give you that.

You're like a parrot saying "It doesn't matter" over and over again.


----------



## LLETSA (Sep 6, 2005)

*Tell you what-try reading the thread*




			
				exosculate said:
			
		

> You make no sense lletsy. Anything you don't like is cliche, you have no grasp of history, don't blame me for that. I only emphasised the past to show others that your request for others to get out the crystal ball is totally absurd.
> 
> Your argument comes down to this. Despite history suggesting otherwise, you know best, and if you say its no biggy then it must be right. Even though you suggest no evidence for your shallow opinions at any point. Whilst accusing others endlessly of your own shortcomings.
> 
> ...





What have I said doesn't matter?  One event (subject of thread) and one organisation (the NF).

I have explained why I believe this to be the case in several posts.  You, on the other hand, have said nothing of any substance.  Simply repeating that history shows that fascism is dangerous and then failing to link this in any way to the subject of the the thread, and why you believe this easy, catch -all statement to be relevant to it, does not really count for anything.  

If anybody's parrot-like it's you-endlessly repeating that, 'history shows that fascism is dangerous.'  As I said, it's simply a substitute for thinking about the problems of the present.


----------



## LLETSA (Sep 6, 2005)

*MC5 and his all-purpose past*




			
				MC5 said:
			
		

> What! They've moved? Oh, the memories of Man City matches, with guttersnipes attacking the opposition with knitting needles.





And by the way- I await your vague references to your 'long history and proud record of facing down the Nazis at the football etc etc.'

Such a big fan of the game that you're the only supporter in Britain who doesn't know that City no longer play at Maine Rd. Something that even millions of non-football fans know, if only because of the Commonwealth Games.


----------



## exosculate (Sep 6, 2005)

LLETSA said:
			
		

> What have I said doesn't matter?  One event (subject of thread) and one organisation (the NF).
> 
> I have explained why I believe this to be the case in several posts.  You, on the other hand, have said nothing of any substance.  Simply repeating that history shows that fascism is dangerous and then failing to link this in any way to the subject of the the thread, and why you believe this easy, catch -all statement to be relevant to it, does not really count for anything.
> 
> If anybody's parrot-like it's you-endlessly repeating that, 'history shows that fascism is dangerous.'  As I said, it's simply a substitute for thinking about the problems of the present.




You have explained nothing of consequence in this thread, which is why your protests about others are so hilarious. You need to read more, the issue is too complex for a few paragraphs. And you clearly have no clue.


----------



## past caring (Sep 6, 2005)

exosculate said:
			
		

> Its about the history of the past not prediction of the future, fash groups are always dangerous. Read some history of early fascism in Germany and then come back to me.



This is mantra, not analysis.
The NF are dangerous? They present the same danger, or even potential for danger, that the Nazis did? They're about to come marching down Whitehall in their jackboots and leather shorts?

You've been taking cockney rebel's tablets - either that, or you need to take more water with it.


----------



## TreeHouse (Sep 6, 2005)

Don't you mean the British National Party? The National Front were superceeded by the BNP over 20 years ago. The current National Front is very small indeed.


----------



## rednblack (Sep 6, 2005)

past caring said:
			
		

> They're about to come marching down Whitehall in their jackboots and leather shorts?



uerrgh!   can you imagine that lot in leather shorts?


----------



## Chuck Wilson (Sep 6, 2005)

rednblack said:
			
		

> uerrgh!   can you imagine that lot in leather shorts?




and breeches?? Ve must have ze breeches.


----------



## hibee (Sep 6, 2005)

Chuck Wilson said:
			
		

> and breeches?? Ve must have ze breeches.



ooh rene


----------



## LLETSA (Sep 6, 2005)

*Yet another cop-out*




			
				exosculate said:
			
		

> You have explained nothing of consequence in this thread, which is why your protests about others are so hilarious. You need to read more, the issue is too complex for a few paragraphs. And you clearly have no clue.





What's the point of spending all the time that you do on here when you aren't prepared to say what YOU think?


----------



## LLETSA (Sep 6, 2005)

TreeHouse said:
			
		

> Don't you mean the British National Party? The National Front were superceeded by the BNP over 20 years ago. The current National Front is very small indeed.





The fact is that very few 'ordinary' members of the public would take them seriously - see their web site and guestbook if in any doubt -which makes the left's and the anarchists' (if you can really separate them) knee-jerk response to everything the NF says and does seem all the sillier.


----------



## Taxamo Welf (Sep 6, 2005)

but isn't the direct harm they do worth confronting? They may not be a threat in the same way as the BNP but they are still dangerous and may incite... stuff.

That was coherent...


----------



## audiotech (Sep 6, 2005)

LLETSA said:
			
		

> Who are you to call City players guttersnipes?  Did they keep the knitting needles in their socks?



I was referring to some of the fans.


----------



## audiotech (Sep 6, 2005)

LLETSA said:
			
		

> And by the way- I await your vague references to your 'long history and proud record of facing down the Nazis at the football etc etc.'
> 
> Such a big fan of the game that you're the only supporter in Britain who doesn't know that City no longer play at Maine Rd. Something that even millions of non-football fans know, if only because of the Commonwealth Games.



You remind me of those middle-class trendies who have just discovered football.

I worked for a football club some time ago and was an ardent supporter home and away. Turned up for one match and was down to steward Man City fans (keep aisles clear, make sure no one was at risk etc) who continually tried to take a pop, spitting and generally making a nuisance of themselves. Later, one decided to kick me in the bollocks and did a runner. At this point I was becoming really pissed off (I was risking serious assault) and decided to vacate the stand for my own safety. When climbing over the wall to get on the pitch, the supervisor asked where I was going. I said I'm not staying in there and risking my life for 50 pence a match and left. A week later I received a letter from the club stating that my services were no longer required. I haven't supported that club since and neither do I support any other. Money grabbing leeches.

Yes, myself, along with others, did face down the fascists at one particular football ground. Some of us thought it necessary at the time to get out of our cosy armchairs and confront the bastards.


----------



## audiotech (Sep 6, 2005)

Compo StHeap said:
			
		

> yeah,  i suppose you've got a point there.
> 
> What are you a hamster then?



Eh?


----------



## audiotech (Sep 6, 2005)

LLETSA said:
			
		

> Try countless posts of yours (in your various guises) on the old RA board.



Then, as now, I never came out with any party line. I am not in any party now and I wasn't in any party then. Got it?


----------



## exosculate (Sep 6, 2005)

past caring said:
			
		

> This is mantra, not analysis.
> The NF are dangerous? They present the same danger, or even potential for danger, that the Nazis did? They're about to come marching down Whitehall in their jackboots and leather shorts?
> 
> You've been taking cockney rebel's tablets - either that, or you need to take more water with it.




It is absurd to think that Oak trees do not come from acorns too mate. Do you accept the existence of acorns?


----------



## LLETSA (Sep 6, 2005)

exosculate said:
			
		

> It is absurd to think that Oak trees do not come from acorns too mate. Do you accept the existence of acorns?





Don't know about acorns, but have you been on the fucking mushrooms of late?


----------



## exosculate (Sep 6, 2005)

LLETSA said:
			
		

> What's the point of spending all the time that you do on here when you aren't prepared to say what YOU think?




I think that all fash groupings are potentially dangerous and should be respected and challenged in that sense - it aint rocket science. You don't - but provide no other evidence/reasons why other than opinion. You believe that those who disagree with you are talking in cliches and you know this because you have some sort of exclusivity of truth. I can accept your position even though I don't agree with it, you can't accept mine. Neither of us have shown either position to be correct. Your position, clearly an IWCA position of some description, seems to be a kneejerk reaction to the Trots position if you ask me.

My position is clear.


----------



## exosculate (Sep 6, 2005)

LLETSA said:
			
		

> Don't know about acorns, but have you been on the fucking mushrooms of late?




Hitlers party started out as a mass party?

Yes or No?


----------



## LLETSA (Sep 6, 2005)

*MC5 thinks vague still in vogue*




			
				MC5 said:
			
		

> You remind me of those middle-class trendies who have just discovered football.
> 
> I worked for a football club some time ago and was an ardent supporter home and away. Turned up for one match and was down to steward Man City fans (keep aisles clear, make sure no one was at risk etc) who continually tried to take a pop, spitting and generally making a nuisance of themselves. Later, one decided to kick me in the bollocks and did a runner. At this point I was becoming really pissed off (I was risking serious assault) and decided to vacate the stand for my own safety. When climbing over the wall to get on the pitch, the supervisor asked where I was going. I said I'm not staying in there and risking my life for 50 pence a match and left. A week later I received a letter from the club stating that my services were no longer required. I haven't supported that club since and neither do I support any other. Money grabbing leeches.
> 
> Yes, myself, along with others, did face down the fascists at one particular football ground. Some of us thought it necessary at the time to get out of our cosy armchairs and confront the bastards.





Hazy as ever, MC5.

Which club pays its stewards fifty pence a game then?  You ought to have organised a strike over pay and conditions instead of displaying such bourgeois individualism.  You know-with all that 'long experience of struggle' etc etc?  Noyt like a hardened Trotskyist to walk meekly away from a confrontation with the bosses....

And where did the knitting needles go?

And what did this, ahem, anecdote have to do with your earlier comments about MCFC leaving Maine Road?

I agree with you about money and contemporary football though.


----------



## flimsier (Sep 6, 2005)

I agree with exo. Only because while I have a lot of time for the IWCA's method of how to undermine the fascists with hard work in communities making a difference on things that really matter, I think it's dangerous to say they'll never be a mass party. I don't understand how the IWCA can 'know' that, and I take every fascist's word (that I've read/ heard, from Hitler to Tyndall) for it that it's harder for them to grow when they are physically opposed.

And because I haven't seen any kind of an argument from LLETSA or the IWCA that physically opposing them is counter-productive or even useless. What I keep reading is that the NF/ BNP are different from the nazis (which is obvious) but not that they aren't fascists, nor that no platform has been shown to be counter-productive in any substantial other case in fighting fascists, anywhere.


----------



## LLETSA (Sep 6, 2005)

exosculate said:
			
		

> Hitlers party started out as a mass party?
> 
> Yes or No?





No.  Now write something that takes into account the differences between Britain today and Germany then, there's a good lad.


----------



## LLETSA (Sep 6, 2005)

MC5 said:
			
		

> I was referring to some of the fans.





I get the feeling that you're having difficulty seeing the funny side these days?

Whatever it is I wish you well.


----------



## flimsier (Sep 6, 2005)

LLETSA said:
			
		

> No.  Now write something that takes into account the differences between Britain today and Germany then, there's a good lad.



This is a fair point, but I'd really like the IWCA or you or whoever to write something taking into account the similarities between how Hitler came to power and the fascists in Britain today.

Maybe it's been done. I haven't read it.


----------



## exosculate (Sep 6, 2005)

LLETSA said:
			
		

> No.  Now write something that takes into account the differences between Britain today and Germany then, there's a good lad.




Differences? Do I think a fascist take over is about to happen now - of course not. Events change all the time. Have you shown how differences mean there isn't a problem - of course you haven't.

If fascist activity causes small scall bigoted/racist attacks/whatever - which it does - it deserves to be challenged regardless of anything else for that alone.

It aint just about the new Nazi party swinging into power tomorrow.

*laughs again at how your line consists of asking others to show all sorts of things whilst you show nothing yourself*

Funny as.....


----------



## exosculate (Sep 6, 2005)

flimsier said:
			
		

> This is a fair point, but I'd really like the IWCA or you or whoever to write something taking into account the similarities between how Hitler came to power and the fascists in Britain today.
> 
> Maybe it's been done. I haven't read it.




Of course its not been done!


----------



## LLETSA (Sep 6, 2005)

MC5 said:
			
		

> Then, as now, I never came out with any party line. I am not in any party now and I wasn't in any party then. Got it?





If you weren't always having a go at me, you wouldn't have to post up angry faces, would you?

Whenever we coincide in a thread, instead of arguing about whatever the subject may be, you invariably fall into your habit of writing about me instead.  If you give it out you've got to be able to take it. And the irony of the fact that you demand to know details of my political background at the same time as being as vague as you can get about your own, doesn't seem to have struck you. 

I'm not the only one, either, who thought that, whatever your present party status may be, you usually approach things from an SWP angle, as a glance at the archive of said board would confirm.  (Despite the fact that you posted under other usernames, you would be immediately recognisable to anybody interested-not that I'm assuming that anybody else is interested in this ongoing little discussion perpetuated by yourself.) 

People do get over the SWP, you know?  Have you tried rehab?


----------



## LLETSA (Sep 6, 2005)

*Where is No Platform?*




			
				flimsier said:
			
		

> I agree with exo. Only because while I have a lot of time for the IWCA's method of how to undermine the fascists with hard work in communities making a difference on things that really matter, I think it's dangerous to say they'll never be a mass party. I don't understand how the IWCA can 'know' that, and I take every fascist's word (that I've read/ heard, from Hitler to Tyndall) for it that it's harder for them to grow when they are physically opposed.
> 
> And because I haven't seen any kind of an argument from LLETSA or the IWCA that physically opposing them is counter-productive or even useless. What I keep reading is that the NF/ BNP are different from the nazis (which is obvious) but not that they aren't fascists, nor that no platform has been shown to be counter-productive in any substantial other case in fighting fascists, anywhere.





First of all, as in so many threads, I am not speaking either for the IWCA nor necessarily repeating their exact position.  Despite my approval of their approach, all opinions are purely my own, on whatever subject.  

Why is all this talk of physically opposing the fascists always counterposed to what the IWCA is doing or saying though? I don't recall the IWCA saying anywhere that, despite them not doing this themselves, others should not get stuck in if that's what they insist they want to occupy their time with.  

But, as far as I'm aware, it is not happening, despite all the talk.


----------



## LLETSA (Sep 6, 2005)

flimsier said:
			
		

> This is a fair point, but I'd really like the IWCA or you or whoever to write something taking into account the similarities between how Hitler came to power and the fascists in Britain today.
> 
> Maybe it's been done. I haven't read it.





Don't you think thay might have better things to do?  I have. 

You know-seeing how there are no similarities between the situation that brought Hitler to power and 'the fascists in Britain today'?


----------



## LLETSA (Sep 6, 2005)

exosculate said:
			
		

> Differences? Do I think a fascist take over is about to happen now - of course not. Events change all the time. Have you shown how differences mean there isn't a problem - of course you haven't.
> 
> If fascist activity causes small scall bigoted/racist attacks/whatever - which it does - it deserves to be challenged regardless of anything else for that alone.
> 
> ...





Aside from the fact that there is no definitive proof that 'fascist activity' causes 'small scale bigoted/ racist attacks/ whatever' as you so entertainingly put it, where is your evidence that activity like the UAF picket in Manchester during the August Bank Holiday weekend will stop these kind of crimes?  

You know-rather than satisfying the need of the liberal leftie to feel that they are 'doing something' about fascism? 

This picket was, after all, the subject of the thread


----------



## rednblack (Sep 6, 2005)

LLETSA said:
			
		

> Aside from the fact that there is no definitive proof that 'fascist activity' causes 'small scale bigoted/ racist attacks/ whatever' as you so entertainingly put it



do you deny the truth of ANal press releases?


----------



## LLETSA (Sep 6, 2005)

flimsier said:
			
		

> I think it's dangerous to say they'll never be a mass party.





This thread is about the present day NF.  

They will never be a mass party.  

There, I've said it again.  

(Runs for cover to avoid 'danger'.)


----------



## exosculate (Sep 6, 2005)

LLETSA said:
			
		

> Aside from the fact that there is no definitive proof that 'fascist activity' causes 'small scale bigoted/ racist attacks/ whatever' as you so entertainingly put it, where is your evidence that activity like the UAF picket in Manchester during the August Bank Holiday weekend will stop these kind of crimes?
> 
> You know-rather than satisfying the need of the liberal leftie to feel that they are 'doing something' about fascism?
> 
> This picket was, after all, the subject of the thread




Its a belief like your beliefs, where is your evidence?


----------



## exosculate (Sep 6, 2005)

LLETSA said:
			
		

> This thread is about the present day NF.
> 
> They will never be a mass party.
> 
> ...




More opinion from the soothsayer.


----------



## exosculate (Sep 6, 2005)

LLETSA said:
			
		

> Don't you think thay might have better things to do?  I have.
> 
> You know-seeing how there are no similarities between the situation that brought Hitler to power and 'the fascists in Britain today'?




In your view again.

My giddy auntie.


----------



## exosculate (Sep 6, 2005)

LLETSA said:
			
		

> Don't you think thay might have better things to do?  I have.
> 
> You know-seeing how there are no similarities between the situation that brought Hitler to power and 'the fascists in Britain today'?




Yeah like talking about vandalism!


----------



## audiotech (Sep 6, 2005)

*Purple Haze is in My Brain......*




			
				LLETSA said:
			
		

> Hazy as ever, MC5.
> 
> Which club pays its stewards fifty pence a game then?  You ought to have organised a strike over pay and conditions instead of displaying such bourgeois individualism.  You know-with all that 'long experience of struggle' etc etc?  Noyt like a hardened Trotskyist to walk meekly away from a confrontation with the bosses....
> 
> ...



A northern club. I was 17. Worked two hours on a Saturday, no union, no contract and I walked. At that age I was a Townsendist (of The Who) and wore Ben Sherman.

The knitting needles were used by Man City supporters, aged about twelve, to poke in coach windows and stab opposition supporters (and they talk about the anti-social behaviour of kids today).

The anecdote was to highlight why I don't give a flying fuck about football and where Man City play (do keep up).


----------



## audiotech (Sep 6, 2005)

LLETSA said:
			
		

> I get the feeling that you're having difficulty seeing the funny side these days?
> 
> Whatever it is I wish you well.



Whatever the joke was I'm sure you had a good laugh.


----------



## LLETSA (Sep 6, 2005)

exosculate said:
			
		

> Its a belief like your beliefs, where is your evidence?





Read the post again-I never said I believed anything.  I simply asked a question. 

On the other hand, you say you believe that 'fascist activity' leads to more 'bigoted/racist attacks' etc etc.  But you offer no proof when asked; you simply say it is a belief.


----------



## exosculate (Sep 6, 2005)

LLETSA said:
			
		

> Read the post again-I never said I believed anything.  I simply asked a question.
> 
> On the other hand, you say you believe that 'fascist activity' leads to more 'bigoted/racist attacks' etc etc.  But you offer no proof when asked; you simply say it is a belief.




Now you're claiming no beliefs, what planet are you on you just stated several up above - with no evidence. Do you really have trouble with what i am saying?


----------



## LLETSA (Sep 6, 2005)

*Jesus Christ almighty!*




			
				exosculate said:
			
		

> In your view again.
> 
> My giddy auntie.





It isn't just in my view.

Take your head from up your arse, take a look around and then tell me that contemporary Britain looks like pre-Hitler Germany.


----------



## LLETSA (Sep 6, 2005)

exosculate said:
			
		

> Yeah like talking about vandalism!





What?


----------



## LLETSA (Sep 6, 2005)

*True, ring, doesn't*




			
				MC5 said:
			
		

> A northern club. I was 17. Worked two hours on a Saturday, no union, no contract and I walked. At that age I was a Townsendist (of The Who) and wore Ben Sherman.
> 
> The knitting needles were used by Man City supporters, aged about twelve, to poke in coach windows and stab opposition supporters (and they talk about the anti-social behaviour of kids today).
> 
> The anecdote was to highlight why I don't give a flying fuck about football and where Man City play (do keep up).





Hmm....  Did they have stewards at football grounds during the sixties?  (Or early seventies?)

Knitting needles to 'poke in coach windows'?  What were they made of?


----------



## exosculate (Sep 6, 2005)

LLETSA said:
			
		

> It isn't just in my view.
> 
> Take your head from up your arse, take a look around and then tell me that contemporary Britain looks like pre-Hitler Germany.




No views are solely ones own - true also for views you disagree with.

Nothing is ever likely to look like pre Hitler Germany again - does than mean fascism has gone forever?


----------



## exosculate (Sep 6, 2005)

LLETSA said:
			
		

> What?




Is what the IWCA talk about apparently, and related nonsense.


----------



## LLETSA (Sep 6, 2005)

exosculate said:
			
		

> Do you really have trouble with what i am saying?





Does Vladimir Putin speak Russian?


----------



## LLETSA (Sep 6, 2005)

*Exosculate: a leftie of his time*




			
				exosculate said:
			
		

> Is what the IWCA talk about apparently, and related nonsense.





....


----------



## exosculate (Sep 6, 2005)

LLETSA said:
			
		

> ....




I'm not a leftie - bullshit language that is best left in the past.


----------



## audiotech (Sep 6, 2005)

LLETSA said:
			
		

> If you weren't always having a go at me, you wouldn't have to post up angry faces, would you?
> 
> Whenever we coincide in a thread, instead of arguing about whatever the subject may be, you invariably fall into your habit of writing about me instead.  If you give it out you've got to be able to take it. And the irony of the fact that you demand to know details of my political background at the same time as being as vague as you can get about your own, doesn't seem to have struck you.
> 
> ...



I have argued politically with you and your response is trite comments like the above.

This thread is about a threat made by fascists on a gay pride march and you asked for a definition of the threat? Fine so far. Then you dismiss out of hand the threat. To paraphrase, the NF is a joke and tiny, so do nothing, just ignore them.

This is where you fall down and you miss the point completely. In this you also exhibit your lack of experience when it comes to fighting fascism. The fascists have a two pronged strategy, which is electoralism, combined with covert violence. The BNP have the electoral strategy in mind and the satellite groups have violence in mind. The latter 'crazy gangs' have some work to do before they hang their jack-boots up.

AS for writing about you? Don't flatter yourself.


----------



## LLETSA (Sep 6, 2005)

exosculate said:
			
		

> Nothing is ever likely to look like pre Hitler Germany again - does than mean fascism has gone forever?





No.  (Sigh.)  But it does mean that the nature of the threat it represents differs depending on the type of society.  And getting back to the subject of the thread, it does not mean that everything the present day NF does is worth taking seriously.


----------



## exosculate (Sep 6, 2005)

LLETSA said:
			
		

> No.  (Sigh.)  But it does mean that the nature of the threat it represents differs depending on the type of society.  And getting back to the subject of the thread, it does not mean that everything the present day NF does is worth taking seriously.




That is a perfectly acceptable _opinion_.


----------



## exosculate (Sep 6, 2005)

MC5 said:
			
		

> This thread is about a threat made by fascists on a gay pride march and you asked for a definition of the threat? Fine so far. Then you dismiss out of hand the threat. To paraphrase, the NF is a joke and tiny, so do nothing, just ignore them.
> 
> This is where you fall down and you miss the point completely. In this you also exhibit your lack of experience when it comes to fighting fascism. The fascists have a two pronged strategy, which is electoralism, combined with covert violence. The BNP have the electoral strategy in mind and the satellite groups have violence in mind. The latter 'crazy gangs' have some work to do before they hang their jack-boots up.



I agree with this.


----------



## audiotech (Sep 6, 2005)

LLETSA said:
			
		

> Hmm....  Did they have stewards at football grounds during the sixties?  (Or early seventies?)
> 
> Knitting needles to 'poke in coach windows'?  What were they made of?



Yes, remember all of that 70's football hooliganism? Security on the cheap.

Coach windows had sliding bits. No air con back then.


----------



## LLETSA (Sep 6, 2005)

MC5 said:
			
		

> I have argued politically with you and your response is trite comments like the above.
> 
> This thread is about a threat made by fascists on a gay pride march and you asked for a definition of the threat? Fine so far. Then you dismiss out of hand the threat. To paraphrase, the NF is a joke and tiny, so do nothing, just ignore them.
> 
> ...




You really don't get it, do you? Although I thought you might, what with that 'long experience of political activity (never defined).' Any checking of the our respective posting histories would show that whenever you and I coincide in a thread, you abandon the subject and start to write about me.  I make no claim to being worthy of this minor obsession of yours and I am not flattered, but you like to do it anyway. It usually happens when your standard SWP/UAF-type argument is coming off worst (and not only because of me.)  Now, this habit of yours is likely of no interest to anybody but you or I (it doesn't actually bother me-I simply find it amusing, particularly when you fail to see that you always do yourself precisely what you accuse me of), but it is one it seems you aredetermined to persist in.  But there you go- nothing so queer as folk, as they say.  Maybe you need some hobbies? 

As ever, you keep going over the same ground.  The threat posed by five boneheads to a hundred thousand gays was in the nature of what exactly?

Again, in the face of the master strategist of contemporary anti-fascism (you, not exosculate), I 'fall down and miss the point completely?'  Yes, I suppose I do, if the point consists of concocting some fascist 'cunning plan' for which you provide no evidence. What exactly have these 'crazy gangs been doing in terms of 'covert violence' over the past few years?


----------



## audiotech (Sep 6, 2005)

LLETSA said:
			
		

> Aside from the fact that there is no definitive proof that 'fascist activity' causes 'small scale bigoted/ racist attacks/ whatever' as you so entertainingly put it, where is your evidence that activity like the UAF picket in Manchester during the August Bank Holiday weekend will stop these kind of crimes?
> 
> You know-rather than satisfying the need of the liberal leftie to feel that they are 'doing something' about fascism?
> 
> This picket was, after all, the subject of the thread



Following on from the NF, the BNP managed to kick it's way into the headlines sometime ago. This was to get the name of the organisation known throughout the land: With limited manpower (sic) available, “publicity - ‘the life-blood of any movement’ - was the key. And lots of it.” This is to be achieved by: “...specific demonstrations and stunts against particularly vile manifestations of the enemy’s activities."

In 1988, the BNP bought a building in Upper Wickham Lane, Welling, which served as their headquarters for a time. The BNP announced their arrival in no uncertain terms:

The protest meeting called against it was attacked by 25 youths who set about the participants with chairs and clubs, hospitalising 12 people with injuries ranging from cuts to broken bones. The rise in racial attacks in the area stem from this time.


----------



## LLETSA (Sep 6, 2005)

MC5 said:
			
		

> Following on from the NF, the BNP managed to kick it's way into the headlines sometime ago. This was to get the name of the organisation known throughout the land: With limited manpower (sic) available, “publicity - ‘the life-blood of any movement’ - was the key. And lots of it.” This is to be achieved by: “...specific demonstrations and stunts against particularly vile manifestations of the enemy’s activities."
> 
> In 1988, the BNP bought a building in Upper Wickham Lane, Welling, which served as their headquarters for a time. The BNP announced their arrival in no uncertain terms:
> 
> The protest meeting called against it was attacked by 25 youths who set about the participants with chairs and clubs, hospitalising 12 people with injuries ranging from cuts to broken bones. The rise in racial attacks in the area stem from this time.





Seventeen years ago.

....


----------



## exosculate (Sep 6, 2005)

LLETSA said:
			
		

> Again, in the face of the master strategist of contemporary anti-fascism (you, not exosculate),




I love the cut of your _bib._


----------



## audiotech (Sep 6, 2005)

LLETSA said:
			
		

> You really don't get it, do you? Although I thought you might, what with that 'long experience of political activity (never defined).' Any checking of the our respective posting histories would show that whenever you and I coincide in a thread, you abandon the subject and start to write about me.  I make no claim to being worthy of this minor obsession of yours and I am not flattered, but you like to do it anyway. It usually happens when your standard SWP/UAF-type argument is coming off worst (and not only because of me.)  Now, this habit of yours is likely of no interest to anybody but you or I (it doesn't actually bother me-I simply find it amusing, particularly when you fail to see that you always do yourself precisely what you accuse me of), but it is one it seems you aredetermined to persist in.  But there you go- nothing so queer as folk, as they say.  Maybe you need some hobbies?



More trite.




			
				LLETSA said:
			
		

> As ever, you keep going over the same ground. The threat posed by five boneheads to a hundred thousand gays was in the nature of what exactly?



I've answered this.




			
				LLETSA said:
			
		

> Again, in the face of the master strategist of contemporary anti-fascism (you, not exosculate), I 'fall down and miss the point completely?'  Yes, I suppose I do, if the point consists of concocting some fascist 'cunning plan' for which you provide no evidence. What exactly have these 'crazy gangs been doing in terms of 'covert violence' over the past few years?



One not too long ago bombed Gay pubs in Soho and ethnic minorities in Brick Lane. At a later date anti-fascist activists had their car firebombed. Others have turned to Muslim targets like Mosques. Some are in prison, some are dead, some are retired, others hit the bottle, some changed sides, some rested, some are attempting now to organise.


----------



## audiotech (Sep 6, 2005)

LLETSA said:
			
		

> Seventeen years ago.
> 
> ....



Learn from history old boy.


----------



## audiotech (Sep 6, 2005)

rednblack said:
			
		

> do you deny the truth of ANal press releases?



I'm in the presence of an original thinker.

Do elaborate.


----------



## LLETSA (Sep 7, 2005)

MC5 said:
			
		

> One not too long ago bombed Gay pubs in Soho and ethnic minorities in Brick Lane. At a later date anti-fascist activists had their car firebombed. Others have turned to Muslim targets like Mosques.





Copeland was not acting on behalf of any organisation.

Who firebombed the car of the anti-fascist activists? Leeds,wasn't it?

Who has 'turned to Muslim targets like mosques'?  (Also Leeds?)

What do you get from years of posting this stuff up on various sites?


----------



## LLETSA (Sep 7, 2005)

*You sound tired, MC5*




			
				MC5 said:
			
		

> Learn from history old boy.





You post up stuff about the antics of the NF and BNP seventeen and more years ago and then tell me to learn from history?

Explain how things are the same now as they were then.


----------



## LLETSA (Sep 7, 2005)

*By the way*




			
				MC5 said:
			
		

> Yes, remember all of that 70's football hooliganism? Security on the cheap.
> 
> Coach windows had sliding bits. No air con back then.




All I remember as a kid in the seventies, in terms of visible 'officialdom' at football grounds, are turnstile operators and police.  There were no stewards in the days of terracing-crowded terracing would be impossible to steward, for a start.  Stewarding is a post-Hillsborough innovation, as far as I remember: a feature of all-seater stadiums and all that.

Coaches in the seventies did indeed have windows with sliding bits.  But they were at the top.  If City 'guttersnipes' were jabbing knitting needles through them, they must have been poking them into the ceiling.  I didn't see many twelve year-olds who were about six foot five either.


----------



## flimsier (Sep 7, 2005)

LLETSA said:
			
		

> This thread is about the present day NF.
> 
> They will never be a mass party.
> 
> ...



You've also said, in the past, that the BNP won't.


----------



## LLETSA (Sep 7, 2005)

flimsier said:
			
		

> You've also said, in the past, that the BNP won't.




I think what I've actually said was that they will never 'come to power.'


But they won't become a mass party either, in my view-not in the true sense of the words at any rate.


----------



## audiotech (Sep 7, 2005)

LLETSA said:
			
		

> All I remember as a kid in the seventies, in terms of visible 'officialdom' at football grounds, are turnstile operators and police.  There were no stewards in the days of terracing-crowded terracing would be impossible to steward, for a start.  Stewarding is a post-Hillsborough innovation, as far as I remember: a feature of all-seater stadiums and all that.
> 
> Coaches in the seventies did indeed have windows with sliding bits.  But they were at the top.  If City 'guttersnipes' were jabbing knitting needles through them, they must have been poking them into the ceiling.  I didn't see many twelve year-olds who were about six foot five either.



The stupid bib I was told to wear (equivalent to a target at the time) was made up too    (it was innovative though).

Hear this coachbuilder, one little shit was hauled up onto the shoulders of some other little shit. This, stationary, in a coach park, Manchester.


----------



## audiotech (Sep 7, 2005)

LLETSA said:
			
		

> Copeland was not acting on behalf of any organisation.
> 
> Who firebombed the car of the anti-fascist activists? Leeds,wasn't it?
> 
> ...



Copeland is crazy. He was photographed alongside a leading BNP member once. He belonged to a far-right group. Don't know what they said to him. Nothing pleasant I should imagine.

Leeds it was.

Leeds and other parts of the country.

You asked me about 'covert violence' in a post. I replied.


----------



## audiotech (Sep 7, 2005)

LLETSA said:
			
		

> You post up stuff about the antics of the NF and BNP seventeen and more years ago and then tell me to learn from history?
> 
> Explain how things are the same now as they were then.



Things are not the same because of the activity of anti-fascists for one.


----------



## LLETSA (Sep 7, 2005)

*Parallel universe*




			
				MC5 said:
			
		

> The stupid bib I was told to wear (eqivalent to a target at the time) was made up too    (it was innovative though).
> 
> Hear this coachbuilder, one little shit was hauled up onto the shoulders of some other little shit. This, stationary, in a coach park, Manchester.





Oh, so in your world, not only were there stewards at football grounds at least a decade and a half before we had them in the real world, but your club's stewards were sent to steward away grounds as well?

Hear this dreambuilder: clubs have their own stewards, for away fans as well as home.  

You've never really been to a match, have you?


----------



## LLETSA (Sep 7, 2005)

MC5 said:
			
		

> Things are not the same because of the activity of anti-fascists for one.





So there were no anti-fascists back then?

What I was getting at was the way the fascists themselves have altered their way of operating.  (The ones that matter, not the fakes, fantasists and spooks.)


----------



## LLETSA (Sep 7, 2005)

MC5 said:
			
		

> Copeland is crazy. He was photographed alongside a leading BNP member once. He belonged to a far-right group. Don't know what they said to him. Nothing pleasant I should imagine.
> 
> Leeds it was.
> 
> ...





I pointed out that, at the time he carried out the bombings, Copeland was a member of no organisation.  In acknowledging this, you cancel out what you said in your earlier post.

As for the firebombing of the car and the attack on the Mosque, not only did I ask you where these took place, but who it was who was supposed to have carried them out.  This you haven't (or can't) answer. And whereabouts are 'other parts of the country'?


----------



## Chuck Wilson (Sep 7, 2005)

flimsier said:
			
		

> I agree with exo. Only because while I have a lot of time for the IWCA's method of how to undermine the fascists with hard work in communities making a difference on things that really matter, I think it's dangerous to say they'll never be a mass party. I don't understand how the IWCA can 'know' that, and I take every fascist's word (that I've read/ heard, from Hitler to Tyndall) for it that it's harder for them to grow when they are physically opposed.
> 
> And because I haven't seen any kind of an argument from LLETSA or the IWCA that physically opposing them is counter-productive or even useless. What I keep reading is that the NF/ BNP are different from the nazis (which is obvious) but not that they aren't fascists, nor that no platform has been shown to be counter-productive in any substantial other case in fighting fascists, anywhere.



It is short and to the point about Oldham but have a look at this:
http://www.redaction.org/anti-fascism/the_day.html


----------



## audiotech (Sep 7, 2005)

LLETSA said:
			
		

> Oh, so in your world, not only were there stewards at football grounds at least a decade and a half before we had them in the real world, but your club's stewards were sent to steward away grounds as well?
> 
> Hear this dreambuilder: clubs have their own stewards, for away fans as well as home.
> 
> You've never really been to a match, have you?



Is this one of your jokes?

I was a steward at the club when they played at home.

The Man City knitting circle incident happened when I was supporting not stewarding. As there was no match to steward at home (because the team was away) they didn't need my excellent negotiating skills.

I could tell you about the time when I managed a sunday league side and later played football with a group of working-class anarchists, who went on to win a cup in Germany (black strip, with skull and crossbones badge), but I won't bother.

If you don't mind me saying so, I alway's thought Old Trafford was a superior ground to Maine Road and obviously a more successfull team all round.


----------



## LLETSA (Sep 7, 2005)

*Says it all really*




			
				Chuck Wilson said:
			
		

> It is short and to the point about Oldham but have a look at this:
> http://www.redaction.org/anti-fascism/the_day.html





That article says precisely what I was getting at regarding the Manchester demo that's the subject of the thread.


----------



## audiotech (Sep 7, 2005)

LLETSA said:
			
		

> So there were no anti-fascists back then?
> 
> What I was getting at was the way the fascists themselves have altered their way of operating.  (The ones that matter, not the fakes, fantasists and spooks.)



Of course there were anti-fascists back then, but slow to move.

They operate an electoral strategy and the BNP have learned some things from the NF days, but still fuck-up sometime.


----------



## LLETSA (Sep 7, 2005)

MC5 said:
			
		

> Is this one of your jokes?
> 
> I was a steward at the club when they played at home.
> 
> ...





That's all right- make it up as you go along.


----------



## audiotech (Sep 7, 2005)

LLETSA said:
			
		

> That article says precisely what I was getting at regarding the Manchester demo that's the subject of the thread.



It was four years ago. The ANL is dead and buried.

One march ended in a riot. The other didn't.


----------



## LLETSA (Sep 7, 2005)

*Empty words*




			
				MC5 said:
			
		

> Of course there were anti-fascists back then, but slow to move.
> 
> They operate an electoral strategy and the BNP have learned some things from the NF days, but still fuck-up sometime.





You have a way of being able to answer questions without saying anything.


----------



## LLETSA (Sep 7, 2005)

MC5 said:
			
		

> It was four years ago. The ANL is dead and buried.
> 
> One march ended in a riot. The other didn't.





The UAF and the ANL are different in anything other than name?

What I meant was the way that the NF is able to feed off the publicity generated by their predictable responses to everything the NF does-or says it is going to do.


----------



## audiotech (Sep 7, 2005)

LLETSA said:
			
		

> That's all right- make it up as you go along.



What, that Man Utd have been a more successfull club than Man City over the years? Surely, that is patently true?


----------



## LLETSA (Sep 7, 2005)

*MC5 lets loose his originality*




			
				MC5 said:
			
		

> What, that Man Utd have been a more successfull club than Man City over the years? Surely, that is patently true?





You can sense your limited knowledge of football by your failure to recognise that you can't wind up a City fan that way.


----------



## audiotech (Sep 7, 2005)

LLETSA said:
			
		

> The UAF and the ANL are different in anything other than name?
> 
> What I meant was the way that the NF is able to feed off the publicity generated by their predictable responses to everything the NF does-or says it is going to do.



The UAF has Livingstone as it's chair, which makes the UAF significantly different. No comparison to Peter Hain.







The NF is going nowhere, with or without publicity. It might join up with the other loony toons for a time.


----------



## audiotech (Sep 7, 2005)

LLETSA said:
			
		

> You can sense your limited knowledge of football by your failure to recognise that you can't wind up a City fan that way.



You'll be getting the knitting needles out next.


----------



## exosculate (Sep 7, 2005)

Things have so moved on - I feel so cut out of this loop.


----------



## LLETSA (Sep 7, 2005)

*Self-contradictory as ever, MC5*




			
				MC5 said:
			
		

> The UAF has Livingstone as it's chair, which makes the UAF significantly different. No comparison to Peter Hain.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Leaving aside your, hopefully, tongue-in-cheek first sentence, isn't it the case that I started off by saying that the NF is insignificant, and that you and others were adamant that they should be opposed at every turn?  (Actually, maybe you've been tongue-in-cheek ever since I first encountered you and I've failed to get the joke?)


The fact that they feed off ANL/UAF publicity does not make them any more of a serious threat; yet, as the RA article shows, the consequences of the game can sometimes be serious.  Thankfully, Manchester this August was just a little sideshow.


----------



## LLETSA (Sep 7, 2005)

exosculate said:
			
		

> Things have so moved on - I feel so cut out of this loop.





What gives you the idea that you were ever in it?


----------



## exosculate (Sep 7, 2005)

LLETSA said:
			
		

> What gives you the idea that you were ever in it?




Well admittedly I was an external faction.


----------



## LLETSA (Sep 7, 2005)

exosculate said:
			
		

> Well admittedly I was an external faction.





Yes, external to the Planet Zog.


----------



## audiotech (Sep 7, 2005)

LLETSA said:
			
		

> I pointed out that, at the time he carried out the bombings, Copeland was a member of no organisation.  In acknowledging this, you cancel out what you said in your earlier post.
> 
> As for the firebombing of the car and the attack on the Mosque, not only did I ask you where these took place, but who it was who was supposed to have carried them out.  This you haven't (or can't) answer. And whereabouts are 'other parts of the country'?



I didn't 'acknowledge' anything you wrote. I said that he was in a far-right group. This group, led by someone described as a 'satanist' in the past, was doorstepped by (I think) the BBC whilst on his bike and asked about the events then in London. He looked as though he shat himself immediately and hurriedly mumbled something about not having anything to do with Copeland and his deeds.



> Muslim leaders have called for calm after a series of attacks on mosques in the wake of the London bombings.
> http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/this_britain/article298528.ece


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 7, 2005)

who described him as a satanist?


----------



## LLETSA (Sep 7, 2005)

*File with 'Leeds' under 'Unanswered'....*




			
				MC5 said:
			
		

> I didn't 'acknowledge' anything you wrote. I said that he was in a far-right group. This group, led by someone described as a 'satanist' in the past, was doorstepped by (I think) the BBC whilst on his bike and asked about the events then in London. He looked as though he shat himself immediately and hurriedly mumbled something about not having anything to do with Copeland and his deeds.





What's this 'far-right group' called?  What has it ever done?  Is there any evidence that it was directing Copeland and where can that evidence be read?


----------



## audiotech (Sep 7, 2005)

LLETSA said:
			
		

> Leaving aside your, hopefully, tongue-in-cheek first sentence, isn't it the case that I started off by saying that the NF is insignificant, and that you and others were adamant that they should be opposed at every turn?  (Actually, maybe you've been tongue-in-cheek ever since I first encountered you and I've failed to get the joke?).



No. Cannot you see the significance of the gay community standing up to fascist threats by now?




			
				LLETSA said:
			
		

> The fact that they feed off ANL/UAF publicity does not make them any more of a serious threat; yet, as the RA article shows, the consequences of the game can sometimes be serious.  Thankfully, Manchester this August was just a little sideshow.



I know the consequence of the game can be serious, as I have had first hand experience of it, despite you believing otherwise. A representation of the gay community standing up to threats is not a 'sideshow'. It's a bloody good show.


----------



## audiotech (Sep 7, 2005)

LLETSA said:
			
		

> What's this 'far-right group' called?  What has it ever done?  Is there any evidence that it was directing Copeland and where can that evidence be read?



It no longer exists.

Had Copeland through it's ranks.

No evidence.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 7, 2005)

where did this satanism allegation come from?


----------



## audiotech (Sep 7, 2005)

Pickman's model said:
			
		

> where did this satanism allegation come from?


.........

http://www.geocities.com/davidmyatt/david_myatt_comments.html


----------



## LLETSA (Sep 7, 2005)

*Is MC5 Jah?*




			
				MC5 said:
			
		

> It no longer exists.
> 
> Had Copeland through it's ranks.
> 
> No evidence.





I know you might think you're God, but how do you know all this if there's no evidence?

Before you know it you'll be the like the fash on the old RA board and posting up stuff with FACT! at the end of the statement, as if this makes it automatically true.


----------



## LLETSA (Sep 7, 2005)

MC5 said:
			
		

> No. Cannot you see the significance of the gay community standing up to fascist threats by now?
> 
> 
> 
> I know the consequence of the game can be serious, as I have had first hand experience of it, despite you believing otherwise. A representation of the gay community standing up to threats is not a 'sideshow'. It's a bloody good show.





It wasn't 'the gay community' that called the picket in Manchester though, was it? Although 'a representation of the gay community' (?) may or may not have been involved, it was, as far as I can tell, called by UAF.

I have never said that you have no experience of anything.  What I have said is that you are always vague about it while demanding more precise details of their record from others.


----------



## Chuck Wilson (Sep 7, 2005)

MC5 said:
			
		

> No. Cannot you see the significance of the gay community standing up to fascist threats by now?
> 
> 
> 
> I know the consequence of the game can be serious, as I have had first hand experience of it, despite you believing otherwise. A representation of the gay community standing up to threats is not a 'sideshow'. It's a bloody good show.




The several thousands in the gay community were on the parade not on the UAF demo which picked up about fifty people. It was UAF standing up to five fascists ,who had a banner which said keep Clause 28, seperated by a line of coppers and a wall.Where is the _significance_ of that?

 Even the shoppers laughed at them .Was this an example of shoppers standing shoulder to shoulder united against fascism?


----------



## audiotech (Sep 7, 2005)

LLETSA said:
			
		

> I know you might think you're God, but how do you know all this if there's no evidence?
> 
> Before you know it you'll be the like the fash on the old RA board and posting up stuff with FACT! at the end of the statement, as if this makes it automatically true.





I said that fascists have a two pronged strategy, one being 'covert violence'. I said that Copeland was involved in a violent act against gays and ethnic minorites. Fascist doctrine was his cause.

It seems likely that it was also fascists who firebombed anti-fascists in Leeds. Although, you appear to doubt that claim?

As for mosques being attacked? Again, probably some fascist involvement somewhere amongst this. In a way similar to their predecessors, who had organised a campaign of arson attacks against Jewish synagogues in an earlier period. Also, later during violent interventions by fascists in the 1958 race riots in Notting Hill.

Apparently, there is only one god and it ain't me FACT!


----------



## audiotech (Sep 7, 2005)

LLETSA said:
			
		

> It wasn't 'the gay community' that called the picket in Manchester though, was it? Although 'a representation of the gay community' (?) may or may not have been involved, it was, as far as I can tell, called by UAF.
> 
> I have never said that you have no experience of anything.  What I have said is that you are always vague about it while demanding more precise details of their record from others.



Where have I demanded precise details?

A picket was called for by the UAF and some of the gay community was involved in the picket.


----------



## audiotech (Sep 7, 2005)

Chuck Wilson said:
			
		

> The several thousands in the gay community were on the parade not on the UAF demo which picked up about fifty people. It was UAF standing up to five fascists ,who had a banner which said keep Clause 28, seperated by a line of coppers and a wall.Where is the _significance_ of that?



I think you'll find it was a small section of the gay community, among others, standing up to threats made by fascists, which, I'm glad to see never materialised. Alway's significant in my eyes.



> Even the shoppers laughed at them .Was this an example of shoppers standing shoulder to shoulder united against fascism?



I don't know was it?


----------



## exosculate (Sep 7, 2005)

LLETSA said:
			
		

> Yes, external to the Planet Zog.



If its beyond your understanding - then why not.


----------



## Taxamo Welf (Sep 8, 2005)

LLETSA said:
			
		

> But, as far as I'm aware, it is not happening, despite all the talk.


wrong.

bye


----------



## LLETSA (Sep 8, 2005)

MC5 said:
			
		

> I said that fascists have a two pronged strategy, one being 'covert violence'. I said that Copeland was involved in a violent act against gays and ethnic minorites. Fascist doctrine was his cause.
> 
> It seems likely that it was also fascists who firebombed anti-fascists in Leeds. Although, you appear to doubt that claim?
> 
> As for mosques being attacked? Again, probably some fascist involvement somewhere amongst this. In a way similar to their predecessors, who had organised a campaign of arson attacks against Jewish synagogues in an earlier period. Also, later during violent interventions by fascists in the 1958 race riots in Notting Hill.





'Likely.'

'Probably.'

Do you always believe whatever you are spoon-fed, MC5?  Or are you one of the feeders?  (Or one of their U.I's?)


----------



## LLETSA (Sep 8, 2005)

Taxamo Welf said:
			
		

> wrong.
> 
> bye





Why, what's happened?


----------



## LLETSA (Sep 8, 2005)

MC5 said:
			
		

> Apparently, there is only one god and it ain't me FACT!





's Allah for you lot these days innit?


----------



## audiotech (Sep 8, 2005)

LLETSA said:
			
		

> 'Likely.'
> 
> 'Probably.'
> 
> Do you always believe whatever you are spoon-fed, MC5?  Or are you one of the feeders?  (Or one of their U.I's?)



No.

No.

What's a U.I?


----------



## LLETSA (Sep 8, 2005)

MC5 said:
			
		

> What's a U.I?





That's you, that is







(Perhaps.)


----------



## audiotech (Sep 8, 2005)

LLETSA said:
			
		

> 's Allah for you lot these days innit?



On my birth certificate I'm classified as 'C of E', but I don't take that seriously either.


----------



## audiotech (Sep 8, 2005)

LLETSA said:
			
		

> That's you, that is
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Perhaps what? Again what's U.I?


----------



## LLETSA (Sep 8, 2005)

MC5 said:
			
		

> Perhaps what? Again what's U.I?





Read back through your contributions to this thread and then think about it.


----------



## audiotech (Sep 8, 2005)

Just tell me what your on about?


----------



## audiotech (Sep 8, 2005)

Still waiting for the answer to my question?


----------



## audiotech (Sep 8, 2005)

Looks as though LETTSA's done a R.I.C.O. Pathetic!


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Sep 8, 2005)

MC5 said:
			
		

> Looks as though LETTSA's done a R.I.C.O. Pathetic!



Have you never heard of the phrase 'useful idiot'?

Louis Mac


----------



## audiotech (Sep 8, 2005)

Louis MacNeice said:
			
		

> Have you never heard of the phrase 'useful idiot'?
> 
> Louis Mac



Ha, a term of abuse. Still pathetic.


----------



## exosculate (Sep 8, 2005)

Louis MacNeice said:
			
		

> Have you never heard of the phrase 'useful idiot'?
> 
> Louis Mac



Blimey - you lot gang up more than the swappies.


----------



## audiotech (Sep 8, 2005)

exosculate said:
			
		

> Blimey - you lot gang up more than the swappies.



I doubt that Louis was ganging up. He appears to take his politics more seriously than that.


----------



## LLETSA (Sep 8, 2005)

MC5 said:
			
		

> Looks as though LETTSA's done a R.I.C.O. Pathetic!





Nay lad- I had to get back to work for a few hours, that's all.

Although I am thinking of modelling myself on that man of honour R.I.C.O/ Richard White.

Mind you, I never saw you call your fellow traveller pathetic in the appropriate threads.


----------



## audiotech (Sep 8, 2005)

LLETSA said:
			
		

> Mind you, I never saw you call your fellow traveller pathetic in the appropriate threads.



What? Who?


----------



## LLETSA (Sep 8, 2005)

MC5 said:
			
		

> What? Who?





R.I.CO./Richard White.  Who else?

You seem a bit slow on the uptake today.  Perhaps you ought to take yourself off to bed with a cup of Horlicks?  All this hanging about here, looking for trouble is tiring you out.


----------



## audiotech (Sep 8, 2005)

LLETSA said:
			
		

> R.I.CO./Richard White.  Who else?
> 
> You seem a bit slow on the uptake today.  Perhaps you ought to take yourself off to bed with a cup of Horlicks?  All this hanging about here, looking for trouble is tiring you out.



It's all those boring posts, FACT!

Surely your capable of handling R.I.C.O on your own?

This was my reponse to R.I.C.O in the MCB Watch thread post #175



> Please, don't use me as an excuse (and a feeble attempt at garnering support) for not answering LLETSA's question. Furthermore, I'm quite capable of defending my own corner thanks.


----------



## LLETSA (Sep 8, 2005)

MC5 said:
			
		

> It's all those boring posts, FACT!
> 
> Surely your capable of handling R.I.C.O on your own?
> 
> This was my reponse to R.I.C.O in the MCB Watch thread post #175





I'm not capable of handling R.I.C.O. on my own-I'm scared of him. 

But thanks for your roundabout way kinda support.  I must admit that I overlooked that post you quote.


----------



## Stella D'Artois (Sep 10, 2005)

MC5 said:
			
		

> Eh?



Lyrics to Cockney Rejects  'West Side' as they were Billy Gardeners boy's  ICF;
West Side Boys"

We're Not the North Bank
We're Not the South Bank
We are the the West Side Upton Park

We meet in the Boyleyn every Saturday
Talk about the team that
we're gonna do today 
Steel cap Dr. Martens and iron bars
Smash their coaches or do'em
in their cars

We're Not the North Bank
We're Not the South Bank
We are the the West Side Upton Park
We can sing until we drop 
We can take the Shed or take the Kop
Highbury and Parton run in fear
When the West Side Boys appear

'Hamster' is an insult directed to the West Sham fans,  by the 'pikeys' Bushwackers.
but from your post's,  i think your a Man C fan. Not sure if you know,  but Gary Bushell fronted the punk band - Gary and the Gonads ( we taught the 4 Skins all they know,  one , two,  three oi)  and was also a Charlton supporter (Thou no-one down there ever spotted him)


----------



## audiotech (Sep 10, 2005)

Stella D'Artois said:
			
		

> Lyrics to Cockney Rejects  'West Side' as they were Billy Gardeners boy's  ICF;
> West Side Boys"
> 
> We're Not the North Bank
> ...



Not a Man City supporter. They needle me.

Gary and the Gonads? I alway's thought Bushell lacked balls.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Sep 10, 2005)

exosculate said:
			
		

> Blimey - you lot gang up more than the swappies.



I thought  I was being helpful.  

Louis Mac


----------

