# Welsh nationalism



## Leon (Nov 20, 2001)

I live in Wales and get well pissed off with people having a go at me for being English, the way all the newspapers are obsessed with all things Welsh and the way whenever Wales play England the whole place turns into a hive of xenophobic gits.

What do you think?
Is Welsh nationalism (in partic) good or bad?
Do you understand what I'm talking about?
Have you had similar experiences?


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## William of Walworth (Nov 20, 2001)

My sister (unlike me, born in Wales) was a Cymdeithas Y Iaith and Plaid Cymru activist in the seventies and eighties, and is not a stranger to Her Majesty's Pleasure.

My views are pretty different from hers, but this is a **fascinating** subject, similarities and differences between Welsh and other kinds of nationalism, all that.

Not enough time right now, and I may not have til Thursday (I'm away on a course tomorrow) but I'd be VERY interested in others' views on this!

Welsh and otherwise ...

W of W


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## Leon (Nov 20, 2001)

I want to hear someone slag off Welsh nationalists and someone defend them.

Any takers?


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## Sub_bass (Nov 20, 2001)

Nationalism sucks (take it from a first-language welsh speaker). The English have done a lot of bad things to the Welsh over the centuries, however, that is a piss-poor excuse for being outright xenophobic towards the saxons. That would be like the English having a problem with the French...

They can't help being born in England you know!   

-sub-


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## Leon (Nov 20, 2001)

Come on, don't tell me that when we whoop you at rugby you don't get more pissed off than when, say, Argentina do?


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## Paul Marsh (Nov 20, 2001)

I've encountered one absolutely foul Welsh Nationalist who waves around copies of the Welsh Language Act, despite the fact that he was born in England, has spent most of his life in England as a civil servant and lives in Newport where there are probably almost as many people who speak Italian as Welsh.

Anyway at great cost the company I work for got some of his letters and an application form he had submitted translated into English from Welsh. 

The Welsh translator commented that not only was our nemesis not fluent in Welsh but in places appeared to have simply picked Welsh words at random from a dictionary. 

I hope other Plaid Cymru activists are a little less ridiculous!


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## TopCat2 (Nov 20, 2001)

I like it when wales whoop Engalnd at the rugby and also like it when the Irish do too...But although I am a Welsh Irish Londoner I think my attitude stems from listening to pissed up yaya's singing Jeruselem which gets right on my tits..Playing fields of Eton and all that bollocks....


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## TopCat2 (Nov 20, 2001)

Further i think the Welsh hate everyone...A bit like people from Bermondsey   When I went to the football at Wrexham someone had the temerity to hit me!


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## Leon (Nov 20, 2001)

Everybody thinks they're quaint. I'm not surprised they get annoyed.

[ 20 November 2001: Message edited by: Leon ]


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## Sub_bass (Nov 20, 2001)

Ok. To be serious. 

Against the nationalists:

Welsh nationalists suck mainly because they are from the North. People in North wales tend to take a dim view of anyone in the south, and in their view you're one step removed from being a Nazi if you're from Cardiff (an exaggeration that, but not by much). Irrespective of whether you speak the language or not, if you're not from North wales and don't have that peculiar accent of theirs, then you're not welsh -simple as (as far as they're concerned). So you may think us southerners can get xenophobic -but try living in rural gwynedd or Anglesey, then you'll see xenophobia. I'm not saying that this applies to ALL from north wales, just a significant percentage of them. In essence Welsh nationalists are divisionists -you're either against us or with us (sound familiar?).

For the nationalists:

It may seem irrational for the Welsh to have a problem with the English, but look at what you lot over the border have done to us over the centuries. You exterminated our leaders -yet somehow left the leadership of both Ireland and Scotland intact. When you were doing your big push to take the country, you got the Irish to betray us with some agreement -which you then immediately went back on and invaded Ireland (once you'd starved us into submission) using Welsh troops as arrow-fodder. Then you forced an army out of us and immediately marched us up to Scotland to fight with a race who -before you lot had settled on this island- we generally got on with. (Any wonder we don't trust you?)

If that wasn't enough you slaughtered our bards (our fault for continuing an oral tradition i suppose) and cut our culture off at its roots. You then decided that our laws were'nt good enough to keep our own in line so you imposed yours on us. Then, of course, our system of familial names was a bit too complex for you so you imposed a system of surnames on us -oh thank-you very much- to make governance easier for yourselves. You then proceeded to use us as basically a slave race. You raped our contry for it's resources and sucked it dry. Then you decided to try and exterminate our language -after all our culture was long dead thanks to you- (remember the welsh not?). If that wasn't insult enough you contrived a new pseudo-culture onto us by weaving together the tattered remnants of our traditions and adding a bit of twee romanticism. You English have fucked us over since the 12th century -and you still continue to do so- and you expect forgiveness and tolerance????


My View:

As i said, nationalism sucks and the pro nationalist rant you have read does not reflect my views in the slightest, it merely illustrates the armoury of slights against the welsh which the nationalists use to full advantage. Most of my friends are english and i have found them on the whole to be less narrow-minded in outlook. And i'm sure that there are plenty of welsh, scots, irish and whoever getting shit in England for not being born English. Such is the poison of nationalism.

-sub-

(BTW Cymdeithas Yr Iaith Cymraeg have done a lot of good for the Welsh language -in a way they saved it from certain extinction under thatcher by pressurising the then government to recognise Welsh as a language of academia and therefore deserving of being used as a medium of tuition. They also helped to raise the profile of welsh in the business community of wales to such a degree that being a bilingual welsh/english speaker is now a definate advantage in looking for work here).

[ 20 November 2001: Message edited by: Sub_bass ]


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## Sub_bass (Nov 20, 2001)

As far as the rugby is concerned Leon, i personally don't care who beats wales as the national team is a fuckin' disgrace and deserve to get thrashed on the regular basis they do.

-sub-


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## Leon (Nov 20, 2001)

Sub - you star. That was the best rant ever, even if its not your opinion.

"You English have fucked us over since the 12th century" 

"You raped our contry for it's resources and sucked it dry."

Quality stuff. Lots of _passion_.

What pisses me off is that most of the people in South Wales are English by descent anyway - their grandparents/great grandparents moved there to fill the labour shortages in heavy industry. Welsh my arse.


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## Leon (Nov 20, 2001)

Why why why do the papers and BBC fuckin Wales have to go on and on about two-bit Welsh "superstars"? Everyone in Wales seems to think Sian Lloyd is a superstar because of the bloody Western Mail. For god's sake credit Welsh people with a bit more intelligence, surely they're not all as parochial as that.


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## Sub_bass (Nov 20, 2001)

Which is probably why the Gogs are so snooty about their 'purity'. (To all who don't know what it means and think 'Gog' is some sort of highly offensive racist slur, it isn't. Gog is an abbreviation for the welsh word Gogledd -which means North. Their words for us southerners are far worse...)  

-sub-


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## Sub_bass (Nov 20, 2001)

The welsh media and english media are as bad as each other, they'll hype the fuck out of anything -as long as it sells. The only difference is that Wales has 8% of englands population, so you will see the same tired faces wheeled out time and time again.   

Sad really isn't it boyo?   

-sub-


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## Leon (Nov 20, 2001)

I see what you're saying, but its tiresome. It must be even worse if you've lived here all your life. I love Wales, and despite what I say I love Cardiff, but certain things begin to irritate me after a while.

Sub, wyt ti'n siarad Cymraig?


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## inflatable jesus (Nov 20, 2001)

OK Fair warning. Long post. If youre not a fan of wanky sociology essays pretending to be posts you might as well ignore this.

I'm not too familiar with the ins and outs of welsh nationalism, but the problems of nationalism within the British state are quite interesting.

I think you've got to appreciate that Wales and Scotland are nations (N ireland is something else entirely) and that despite the best efforts of the establishment, Great Britain is not. Any attempts to construct a nationalism around Britishness can only be unsuccessful because at the end of the day, everything that we understand a country to be, britain is not. ie common language, shared history, common ethnicity and / or religion etc.

I think that the sort of petty self-defeating nationalism that is being talked about in this thread is just what youre left with when everything that elsewhere has been the basis of nationalism is ignored or repressed.

The reason that in Wales and Scotland it was ignored is because at the time in which the Nation State became the accepted political model (late 17- mid 1800's), the British State became very profitable due to the onset of British imperialism and industrialisation. That's the only reason for Scotland's involvement in the British state at all, the 1707 union of parliaments was mostly about money.

It's widely accepted that in order for a successful nation state to be developed, the key ingredients are literacy, mass media (to create shared cultural experience), and high volume of trade (so that bourgious interests are the determining ones). In Britain at this time Bourgious interests were in political stability rather than self determination. 

In Scotland, N Ireland and Wales there was considerable economic development. For example central Scottish industry and ship building, possibly welsh mining but I cant back that up.

The reason that Irish Nationalism flourished while it did not elsewhere is largely due to the economic underdevelopment in this area. Economic underdevelopment leads to calls for self determination and nationalism begins to  be constructed by the bourgious around cultural aspects of the underdeveloped area. Mass Media is used to stir up nationlaist feelings and promises are made to the Working classes of a fairer rule in exchange for participation. (I'm generalising a bit here, but there are precedents).

Getting back to the point, if you seriously believe Nationalism to be a bad thing, then you cant just pick out Welsh or Scottish nationalism and see that as the problem. Dont forget the impact that British Nationalism has on these areas. We accept symbols of British nationalism to be quite natural when they clearly are not. 

If you really want to get away from this petty nationalism then the only way I can see is to get rid of the British state. We are no longer an imperial power and it has therefore clearly outlived it's usefullness.

After that, maybe we can get rid of political super-states all together.

[ 20 November 2001: Message edited by: inflatable jesus ]


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## CyberRose (Nov 20, 2001)

I think this nationalism and subsequently, xenophobia towards England is a creation of certain Welsh politicians.  I'm at John Moores uni in Liverpool so i know a lot of Welsh people.  None of them give a shit about Welsh nationalism (and most tell me it is a southern Wales phenomenon).  Nobody ever hears in the papers how the average Welsh person feels, instead, all the coverage is given to xenophobic politicians and Welsh extremists.  Lets face it, these are the stories that sell the papers.


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## johnwisehammer (Nov 20, 2001)

Just going on from what IJ says, the other thing you (well, one) have to understand is that British identity doesn't exist as such - it's just a cipher for English identity that's been imposed on Scots, Irish and Welsh (though obviously this goes back before postwar non-white mass immigration - and that's an interesting side topic). English language, English forms of dress, English names and in NI and Wales, English religion.

Complaining that they "don't speak the language" entirely misses the point - it's the cultural genocide of the British/English state that ensured that local languages (Irish, Scots Gaelic, Lallans, Welsh) were not permitted in schools or in offical usage until relatively recently, precisely so that people didn't speak the language. Obviously, the point of this was to destroy a node of resistance to British internal imperialism (nations are arguably little more than linguistic communities).

Interesting also that Leon denies the right of Welsh people descended from English ancestors to self-identify themselves as Welsh. Does that mean you count Ian Wright as a Jamaican because he's not allowed to be English? Does that make Norman Tebbit Dutch? Does that make most English people French or Germans?

Surprise - the Welsh media are a bit parochial! Well, bugger me, there's only three and half million people there and not a huge deal of industry. What do you think the South London Press is if not 'parochial'?


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## Shmu (Nov 20, 2001)

I used to work with a girl who slagged people of by saying they had "goggy breath". Is that an anti-North-Welsh slur?

Sorry to lower level of debate.

[ 20 November 2001: Message edited by: Shmu ]


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## Voley (Nov 20, 2001)

A bit off-topic, but can someone tell me why every Welsh person I know feels it necessary to pretend to like 'Cool Cymru' bands?

I say 'pretend' because it's an undisputed fact that all Welsh bands are dogwank.

The Manics are now a hideous caricature of everything they once professed to hate, Catatonia were second-rate pub-rock fronted by a caterwauling fishwife, the Stereophonics are duller than Dull Dave McDull (the winner of last years Mr Dull competition) and as for a band that decides to call itself Gorky's Zygotic Mynci ...    

I only raise this as I think it's a part of Welsh Nationalism: the Manics always perform under a Red Dragon, The Stereophonics have a song called 'As Long As We Beat The English',  Catatonia sang 'Every Day I Thank The Lord I'm Welsh' etc. Why do so many Welsh people go along with it ?

Don't get me wrong, I always enjoy myself in Wales and I find the people genuinely friendly but all this flag-waving bollocks sticks in my throat something rotten.

The only mainstream(ish) band I can think of that doesn't go along with this nonsense are the Super Furry Animals. Guess what ? They also happen to be much more intelligent and miles ahead of all of 'em musically. I don't think this is a coincidence.

Nationalism is a bad thing, in music as in life.


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## ICB (Nov 20, 2001)

JWH: Your analysis of the British identity is historically informative but it turns on its head, in a way.

_British_ has the usefulness that it's not ethnically loaded, its invention for political opression has been reversed.

Someone might describe herself as British Asian as a general identity (e.g. when outside the UK) but as Scottish when in England (if from Glasgow) and as Pakistani in tradition and heritage.  All are reasonable and useful in the appropriate context.

[ 20 November 2001: Message edited by: ICantBelieve ItsNotBetter ]


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## editor (Nov 20, 2001)

I was born and bred in Wales, but it was only many years after I'd left school that I realised I'd been taught an English version of history. 

I'd never even heard of Owain Glyndwr and I had no idea that 'the oldest Wales could be said to be most of the island of Britain'. 

I had no notion of how the English had try to kill off Welsh in 1870 by banning it in schools or its importance as one of the oldest languages in the world.

I'm no nationalist, but I can understand the frustration felt in Wales, particularly in the 1980s when a government with barely a seat in Wales systematically destroyed the mining industry.

Of course, this same pain was felt in many other parts of the UK, but it appeared to many that Wales was unrepresented and exploited.

There's a standing joke that whenever an English team or athelete does well it's always a 'great victory for England' but if it's a Welsh/Scot/N Irish then it becomes a 'victory for Britain!'. 

As for bands celebrating their Welshness, in my opinion it's long overdue. 

When I first moved to London in an all-Welsh band, it was the cue for endless pisstakes bordering on racism, and if the resurgance of successful bands means that Welsh kids realise that their music will no longer be treated like a joke, all the better.

As for the Manics having a Welsh Dragon onstage, why the hell not? All manner of bands have draped flags onstage (the Who, the Jam, Springsteen, Lynyrd Skynyrd etc) and seeing as the Welsh flag remains singularly unrepresented in the Union Jack, so what?

I think there's nothing wrong with Welsh bands acknowledging where they're from and using visual cues to underline this fact: after all the years of neglect and insults, anything that can create an alternative and vibrant scene can only be for the better.

But the second it becomes tub thumping nationalist, I'll be the first to withdraw my support.

Updated to include link to amusing Welsh swear words site

[ 20 November 2001: Message edited by: editor ]


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## Tank Girl (Nov 20, 2001)

My aunty and uncle live in Wales, their eldest son was born in England and the the youngest one was born in Wales.  They share alot of friends as they are close in age, but they have encountered on a couple of occasions that only the little one is allowed to go and play at a friends house "because the oldest one isn't Welsh".  I find that really in bad taste to do that to a child just because of where he happened to pop out    

But every other encounter I've had in Wales has been lovely... there's lovely  

Tanky xx


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## Piers Gibbon (Nov 20, 2001)

wow Tanky is that for real???

blimey...


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## Voley (Nov 20, 2001)

Mike,

I think the thin line between "Welsh bands acknowledging where they're from" and "tub-thumping nationalism" has been crossed in this instance.

For example, when The Stereophonics headlined Morfa (sp?) Stadium they finished with 'As Long As We Beat The English' set to video of waving flags and scenes of rugby victories. Harmless ? Possibly, but I know for a fact that there were people in the audience genuinely frightened by the wave of anti-English sentiment that this provoked in the crowd. Not really what you're after when yo go to a gig, is it?

Now I know that The Stereophonics are hardly the brightest band in the world but they're still playing with fire, imo. I think a lot of these bands are flirting with nasty, nationalistic bullshit that appeals to people's worst instincts, particularly in a crowd situation.


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## editor (Nov 20, 2001)

Leon: "...most of the people in South Wales are English by descent anyway - their grandparents/great grandparents moved there to fill the labour shortages in heavy industry. Welsh my arse."

I'm afraid this is quite wrong. From 'Real Wales', Heini Gruffudd: 

"Rhondda.. had a population of 951 in 1851. By 1881 it had grown to 55,000. Most of these people had come from the poverty of west and north Wales to seek work.. it has been argued that the development of the iron works and coal mines saved the Welsh language"

"Although large numbers of people moved to south Wales in the 20thC, there was still 45% of the population speaking Welsh in Glamorgan in 1921."


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## editor (Nov 20, 2001)

Naked: With respect, if you understood Welsh rugby culture, you'd realise that the Stereophonics song was hardly a call to anti-English rampaging but simply a part of a long - and friendly - tradition of England/Wales rugby baiting. 

It's been going on for years from both sides, and if you'd attended any of those games, you'd know that it's not some ominous call to arms, just a piece of fun (even the ghastly Max Boyce penned a similar tune once!)

Of course, there's always a slim chance that some lunkhead may take it as an excuse to launch into a scrap with the nearest English person, but then those kind of fuckwits generally don't need a soundtrack to prompt their violent acts.


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## Voley (Nov 20, 2001)

Take your point, Mike, fair enough. I don't know a thing about rugby, thankfully. Or Max Boyce.   

I still think this is a dodgy area, though. It touches on racism and that's where I feel uncomfortable with it.

You mentioned it yourself when you said that when you "first moved to London in an all-Welsh band, it was the cue for endless pisstakes bordering on racism".

I think this veers into the same area and leaves me feeling cold.

Also, rugby does not belong in music. Ever.   

[ 20 November 2001: Message edited by: NakedVolePimpa ]


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## editor (Nov 20, 2001)

I did a cartoon strip that dealt with a lunkhead Cardiff City fan who travels to France for an away game and spends most of the game chanting about how much he hates England - until he is asked by an inquisitive Frenchman why he hates his team's manager, coach, chairman and the majority of the team!


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## inflatable jesus (Nov 21, 2001)

In reply to ICB. In regard to his hypothetical Glaswegian-Pakistani person.

Just wondering why she would see herself as British outside of the UK (which she's perfectly welcome to if she pleases).

 A former uni proffessor of mine done some studies in the area of ethnic and national identity and found that Scottish Pakistani identity generally didnt take Britishness on board too much.

Out of all the terms: Scottish, British, Pakistani and Asian (and in all possible combinations) Scottish-Pakistani was most popular followed by Scottish and Pakistani seperately.

Also, are you saying that terms like Scottish, Welsh or English *are* ethnically loaded? 

I really dont understand why they would be any more so than British.


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## joffy (Nov 21, 2001)

It depends. (cop out cop out)

AKAIK, most people in south Wales don't speak Welsh, so, to demand that all public jobs will only go to Welsh speakers seems to discriminate against English speakers (even though they are welsh).

But doing this adds an extra incentive to learn welsh.

I wonder why people, a lot of whom are only partially welsh, see this as a good thing. except that learning languages is a good thing. The reports in the mainstream press imply that there is a hardcore welsh speaking minority that see Wales as being defined by Welsh.

As I understand it, this is true of North Wales, but not of South Wales, and I can't see South Wales becoming welsh speaking.


Back to topic, Welsh nationalism is good when it concentrates on preserving welsh culture, and is bad when it starts ramming false identities down peoples throats. The people from Cardiff and Newport are english speaking, as far as I'm aware, so let them speak welsh if they want to, but don't demand it for their local coucils if they can't.

--------

I believe that most Irish people speak only english, and that the welsh are the only national grouping in the british isles that maintain a large proportion of mother-tongue linguists (sorry, can't think of the right way of putting this)


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## Sub_bass (Nov 21, 2001)

Joffy:
So what about the older generation (50+) who happen to live in and around those areas who are most comfortable speaking welsh? Oh yeah, that's right, make them speak english...

Leon: Wrth gwrs rydw i'n gallu siarad cymraeg.  

-sub-


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## editor (Nov 21, 2001)

In the south, there is certainly some antagonism felt towards the 'Taffia': the Welsh speaking minority who are seen by some as elitist and self serving. 

Being able to speak Welsh opens up all manner of doors - particularly in government institutions and the BBC - and those who don't want to learn the language rightly feel excluded.

But I personally wish that I'd been brought up in a true bilingual environment. Whilst it's true that Welsh is hardly the most useful of languages, it can serve as an excellent 'primer' for learning other languages - once you've learnt a second language it becomes easier to learn a third and a fourth.

Incidentally, there's a growing number of schools which are primarily taught through the medium of Welsh (including more than 25% of Welsh primary schools) and these have consistently produced above higher than average results - prompting many English-speaking families to send their kids there.


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## Leon (Nov 21, 2001)

Da iawn, Sub. O ble wyt ti'n dod?

[ 21 November 2001: Message edited by: Leon ]


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## Sub_bass (Nov 21, 2001)

Cwmtwrch Isaf, a tithau?

-sub-

[ 21 November 2001: Message edited by: Sub_bass ]


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## Space Girl (Nov 21, 2001)

I consider myself as Welsh, my mum was born and bred there, I grew up there.
I went to a very 'Welsh' school, one of only a handful where learning Welsh was compulsery for 5 years. 
The area where I grew up in was very nationalistic, they hated the English with a passion, we 'English' were segregated from their communities, were excuded from local activities and generally shunned, for fuck sake, we were children who ended growing up being hated just because we didn't speak their languge, they naturally ignored the fact that we were trying to!
When I was 16 I left Wales, I couldn't wait to get out, aways wondering why they accepted Welsh people from Cardiff who didn't speak Welsh yet never accepting me because I wasn't born there, yet I spoke the language!
Despite all this, I still classify myself as Welsh, it's an amazing country, steeped in history and a culture all of it's own, looking back at my childhood there I can understand slightly where the people were coming from, what with being walked over by the English for centuries, but two wrongs never made a right, my generation didn't do those things they hate the English for so why take it out on me, a child at the time?

There is nothing wrong with being proud of what you are, and where you are from but, nationalism is taking it to the extreem, it's a dangerious thing, it can turn into hate, which in turn can turn into war.


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## ICB (Nov 21, 2001)

IJ: Interesting to hear something from an academic study, thanks, all my experience is anecdotal.

The hypothetical person was a thought-experiment reversal of a real person, the difference being that they are male and English when in Scotland or Wales (from Brum).

Perhaps it's a pecularity of English ethnic minorities that they feel more comfortable with 'British' outside the UK but are happy to join in, or can't avoid, the leg pulling and name calling within it.

To clarify ethnic loadedness:  as I use them and as I would like them to be used they are not ethnically loaded, however, I believe the majority perception is that they are and since meaning is largely determined by use - they are.

It is very hard (impossible?) to come to agreement or conclusions about what is an acceptable or legitimate use of a particular descriptor, even with extensive academic research.

E.g. I'm a 'European' when talking to Americans since I feel I have more in common with other Europeans than I do with Americans, in spite of the 'common language', and since Americans have a better chance of knowing where Europe is.

What's much easier is to say when we don't like a certain usage or are offended by it - easier still to make a mistake about this.


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## editor (Nov 21, 2001)

I view myself as Welsh first, then British, then European (I know it would be hipper to say 'European' first, but that's how it is!). 

And if I'm watching sport I cheer on Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland first and then England. And yes, I most certainly cheer on English teams against foreign opposition...


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## ICB (Nov 21, 2001)

That's good to hear editor, and quite unusual, most non-English people I know always want England to lose against any opposition.  A bit like wanting Man U to lose to anyone.

How I feel about identity with weightings out of 100 for importance (sorry to be so painfully hip)   

Human 100
European 10
British 10
English 7
West C*nry 4
Brissol 2

[ 21 November 2001: Message edited by: ICantBelieve ItsNotBetter ]


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## calimero (Nov 21, 2001)

Leaving aside nationalism and just looking at the issue of the Welsh language I think it's a crying shame that something so beautiful and poetic causes so much division, resentment and fear in Wales.

I think most reasonable, concerned Welsh speakers like myself only want to see official recognition for the language to be used in all capacities (until very recently official documents, court proceedings etc. had very little hope of being bilingual and it is still a daily struggle to ensure that both languages are granted equal status) and for use of the language to be encouraged beyond the classroom and the corrupt Welsh media. 

However these aims have been consistently misinterpreted and misrepresented by some powerful non-Welsh speakers who view the language as the tool of a narrow, middle-class elite.

Shamefully the most glaring example of this is a large section of the Labour Party in Wales which has traditionally been opposed to any form of self-representation or self-government in Wales. 

The campaign against devolution in the seventies which was led by Neil Kinnock (something for which he was never forgiven by many in Wales) claimed that devolution would transfer power to a Welsh-speaking nationalist elite and that the plight of non-Welsh speakers would be ignored. 

This tradition of vehement hatred of the Welsh language remains alive and well in the Labour party today. 

Witness the regular attempts made by Assembly Members and Welsh M.Ps to undermine legistalation aimed at strengthening the language. 

I'm not a nationalist myself and I have no real affinity with the Nationalist Party but it makes me very sad and frustrated that the right of Welsh people to speak their own language and use it freely is still viewed as an extreme demand by many. 

I've lost count of the number of times I've encountered people in Wales who've been greiviously put out and offended to hear myself and friends speaking Welsh within their earshot. 

Lots of people assume that we should automatically switch to English just because they can't understand our conversation. Being a passive sort of person invariably I will switch to English but there's no reason why I should other than politeness. 

The onus should be on people to learn Welsh not on Welsh speakers to deny their identity. 

This does not make me an extremist as I don't believe that there should be any compulsion or coercion for anyone to do anything let alone learn a language! However if more people don't learn Welsh then the language will die. 

There's no question about this because the number of incomers to traditional Welsh speaking areas far outweighs the number of indigenous families. 

More importantly the wealth and spending power of the average person or family who does move in is much greater than that of local people (areas like Ceredigion and rural North Wales are geniunely poor). 

This prices local people out of the housing market, forces people to move elsewhere and gradually destroys the community. 

Please don't think that this means that I'm opposed to immigration in any way because I'm not. My birthplace, Aberystwyth, would have been much the poorer without all the hippies and freaks who moved to the area in the 60s and 70s seeking an escape from the rat-race. 

Many of them learnt Welsh and encouraged their children to do so as well. The experience that Spacegirl describes is awful and those who resent non-Welsh speakers indiscriminatley are indefensible. 

However for each family which was alienated by such harsh treatment there's another which showed no regard whatsoever for the culture which it became a part of and refused even to recognize the existence of a separate cultural identity. 

I know this because I've experienced arrogance and incrompehension from English people who moved into my area on innumerable occassions. 

Many people are even opposed to there being signs for place names in Welsh! 
If this seems irrelevant to the kind of politics and issues which are usually dicussed on this site then I apolgize but I think they are hugley relevant and important. 

The right of local communities to preserve their identity, customs and language in the face of capitalist opposition is one of the fundamental ones which mainstream politics ignores, devaluse ans sometimes undermines. 

Fighting to preserve and defend the language, for me, thus becomes part of a greater fight to defend the right of communities to have a real sense of self-determination and participation in their own future.

(Excellent post formatted by editor to make it more readable)

[ 21 November 2001: Message edited by: editor ]


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## cultureslut (Nov 21, 2001)

I have a welsh auntie and i love her too bits, and although she lives in london at the mo, she is very nationalistic and suffers from hirath  (have i spelt that right???).

I love anything that is Welsh and do think that anyone who is racist for any reason is a bit sad really!


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## calimero (Nov 21, 2001)

You missed the 'e' - hiraeth. Nearly there though.
Cariad mawr i bawb


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## Space Girl (Nov 21, 2001)

I lived in the middle on nowhere about 6 miles inland from Cardigan, all the road signs were written both in Engish and in Welsh, all the English ones were scribbled out. The house down the lane from where I lived, which was owned by a Welsh man but who rented it out as a holiday home (umm, tourism, isn't that Wales' second largest income?) was burnt down during the time of 'burning the brits out' campaign.

I can't remeber for the life of me how to spell it, but we children, who were not in the Welsh streams at school were called 'sias' as slang name for English, and get this, in my primary school, when I had just moved to Wales, the head master put a sign around my neck because I spoke in English, he was at the time explaining that this was what happened in the olden days (a history lesson I believe), quite why I had to wear it all day I don't know, maybe something to do with an 8 year old girl who had just moved into the area, not being able to speak Welsh, oh, what a threat I must have been!
Bitter you may think I am, which I am not, like I said, I classify myself as being Welsh, the country and people have a lot more good to offer than what I experienced.
Shame really how few spoil it for the rest.


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## Sub_bass (Nov 21, 2001)

SG: "Saes" short for "Saesneg/Saeson" -meaning English -but you probably know that already (edit to add: sorry for the irrelevance there). Obviously your old headmaster had bad experiences of the "Welsh Not" if he saw fit to give you an "English Not". What a silly little man, pathetic really....   

-sub-

[ 21 November 2001: Message edited by: Sub_bass ]


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## calimero (Nov 21, 2001)

I think that says a lot more about the headmaster of the school you had the bad luck to attend than it does about the attitude of most people in West Wales today. 

Most people in my experience are very friendly and welcoming and only become hostile or angry, as I would, when people who don't speak Welsh complain about people using the language. I don't have a problem of any kind with non-Welsh speakers. I'd be a complete hypocrite if I did because over half my family can't speak Welsh. 

I was just trying to point out that the language is still in decline depsite all the brave efforts and sacrifices made to save it for a variety of complex reasons. One of which is local people being forced to move because they can't afford to compete in the housing market. 

Bilingual signs did not appear in Wales until the 1970s. Before this date anywhere with an Anglicized name such as Cardiff or Carmarthen had an official road sign in English only. Fact. This is one of the main issues over which Cymdeithas yr Iaith (Welsh Language Sociery) took direct action. Painting over signs in English was a part of this. It may be seen as extreme in retrospect but given the circumstances surely it was understanable? 

I hope I'm not sounding hostile or extremist here because I'm not like that at all. I agree that tourism is an important part of the Welsh economy and I would feel very uncomfortable if any legal blocks or obstacles on non-Welsh speakers moving into predominantly Welsh speaking areas were imposed (as is proposed by many nationalists). But it is an issue which I worry about a lot as it is a major source of misunderstanding, discontent and division in Wales. 

All too often anyone who raises concerns over the language is labelled an extremist and wilfully misunderstood by those who have historically felt alienated from Welsh language culture (justifiably given how snobby and elitist many leading figures in the Welsh language minority can be), whilst anyone who questions whether the language should be seen as such an important issue over which so much public money is spent is in turn labelled a 'bradwr' or 'taeog' (traitor). 

The debate tends to be conducted in a very petty, immature way. There's a line in one of R.S. Thomas's poems about Welsh people 'squabbling over breadcrumbs under the table' which kind of sums it up. A potentially tragic situation because if the language were to diappear then one of the most distinctive and ancient featutes of everyday life in Britain would disappear forever.

[ 21 November 2001: Message edited by: calimero ]


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## cultureslut (Nov 21, 2001)

There was an article I now remember reading in the paper (it could have been the Mail or the Evening Standard, can't remember!) that said that the only problem with Wales was all the other people in it who were not Welsh!  Which i have to say is probably quite true!


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## johnwisehammer (Nov 21, 2001)

"British has the usefulness that it's not ethnically loaded, its invention for political opression has been reversed."

You can only believe that if you're English! It certainly is ethnically loaded because it's an expression of Englishness and exclude the Celts. The SNP, for instance, has a section for Scottish Asians and there are a number of Scottish Englishmen people on the board of the SNP.

"sang 'Every Day I Thank The Lord I'm Welsh' etc"

I dunno about you but when I listened to that song, I understood it (references to Rhyl and all) as being _deeply_ ironic (as did the couple of taffs I happened to be with at the time I heard it first).

"And yes, I most certainly cheer on English teams against foreign opposition..."

Interesting phrasing (from a certainly not being offensive, chin-stroking POV) that shows how successfully Britishness has become internalised (ie what's domestic/foreign).

Calimero – absolutely! It's crazy that people who paint over a few signs are regarded as "extremists" when in other parts of the world, these sorts of issues can be settled by a few pogroms and ethnic cleansing. Just last week the Georgian government endorsed the harassment and non-return of Meskhetians to their homelands in south, while local Armenians wanted to set up their own ethnically pure secessionist state on a tichy piece of land. The last president of Georgia was elected on a "Not a single Turk on Georgian soil" campaign - "Turk" meaning any of the Muslim minorities.

[ 21 November 2001: Message edited by: JohnWH ]


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## calimero (Nov 21, 2001)

Editor - Diolch yn fawr! I always forget to paragraph so thanks for making my post a bit clearer.


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## William of Walworth (Nov 21, 2001)

Definitley more tomorrow -- excellent thread.

NVP what about the Super Furries? Welsh and thoroughly cool.

W of W


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## Spud Murphy 2.0 (Nov 21, 2001)

SG: what a rotten man your old headmaster was!

I lived for about ten years in Scotland (seven in Glasgow, three in Edinburgh). 
In Glasgow I encountered very little overt anti-English sentiment, being the target of such invective on only a very small number of occasions. 

This was despite living in a fairly 'rough' area (Castlemilk) and spending a lot of time round the Barras Market and working in the Barrowland Ballroom. All those who had a go at me for being English were very drunk at the time anyway.

Most people there believed that I was a Cockney, and I would try to explain that I wasn't one, but this would just encourage them to start wheeling out Dick Van Dyke-style impersonations. I'd say: 'That's a good Paul Hogan you just did there.'

There was more cussing about the English in Edinburgh. But this seemed understandable, as a lot of English people I encountered there were wankers. They made very poor ambassadors for my country, and I was often angry at being lumped in the same category with them.

What was hard to understand was why Scottish nationalism wasn't a stronger force. Thatcher was in power, and the contrasts between the English and Scottish political cultures could not have been greater.

For a long time, the SNP had a crankish image. In Glasgow, they employed an old man who wandered round in a kilt, trying to sell their party newspaper. He would come into a pub, stand silently in front of the table where you and your pals were drinking, and slowly and dramatically hold up one of the newspapers, like Moses showing the stone tablets to the Israelites. This man was a universal object of ridicule.

The SNP also failed to shake off the 'Tartan Tory' label which the Scottish Labour Party had so effectively pinned on them. The SNP were able to take the Govan seat on three occasions (I think), but were helped by the poor calibre of the Labour candidates. The worst was Bob Gillespie (father of the Primal Scream singer), who was once completely demolished in a TV debate by the SNP candidate. 

But the SNP were unable to repeat such successes in other working-class urban constituencies, partly due to the inertia and traditionalism of the electorates there, but also because many Catholic voters seemed suspicious of Scottish nationalism, perhaps assuming that they might become second-class citizens in an independent and predominantly Protestant Scotland.


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## ICB (Nov 21, 2001)

JWH: "British" as an invented identity is no more certainly or necessarily ethnically loaded because you say it is than it isn't because I say it isn't.  My point is that I know people (see earlier) who use it in an unloaded way and that seems fine to me (and other non-English people).

I'd rather consider myself British, as it's more inclusive (see my order of precedence).  The fact that English people are getting defensive about their identity and throwing George Crosses up everywhere (there's a massive one in a student's window in my road) fucks me off royally, even more than twats with Andrew's Crosses or Welsh Dragons on their cars, etc. because it's more dangerous and less historically justified.  

However, the whole "badge" thing is a pathetic affectation, whichever "camp" you belong to.

The fact that the "British Isles" geographically refers to the UK and all of Ireland is slightly unfortunate I suppose if one is prone to confusing geography with identity.

Do you have any proposals for an alternative set of (unloaded) descriptors for all these mashed-up identities?  How would you go about getting them in common usage?

Perhaps we should try to make the words that we have do the job that we want them to instead of bitching about the job they were created to do and their inadequacy for the job at hand.


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## Voley (Nov 21, 2001)

WofW

From my previous post:


> The only mainstream(ish) band I can think of that doesn't go along with this nonsense are the Super Furry Animals. Guess what ? They also happen to be much more intelligent and miles ahead of all of 'em musically. I don't think this is a coincidence.



i.e. - I totally agree.


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## johnwisehammer (Nov 21, 2001)

'"British" as an invented identity is no more certainly or necessarily ethnically loaded because you say it is than it isn't because I say it isn't'

Well, there's a simple answer to this and that's to go back and look at what the original purpose of "British" was: to secure English hegemony over the Celtic fringe by depriving the power-minority groups of their cultural focus points of resistance.

Is the reason you feel "British" to be more inclusive because it wasn't designed to suppress English identity? You can be any British you want, so long as it's by our rules? In (the Republic of) Ireland there's a group of people that identify with Britain and England called the Anglo-Irish, so why not the Anglo-Scots or Anglo-Welsh? By comparison, how do you feel about the heavy pressure the Brazilian government puts on saying that indigenous tribes count as Brazilian?

Why is it that you sneer at people who have the St Andrew's Cross or Lion Rampant or Welsh Dragon (don't know if there's a proper name for that)? It's a legitimate expression of their cultural identity and a political statement too. Would you call the Jamaican/Pakistani flags that some Jamaican Englishmen or Pakistani Scots having in their car windows a "pathetic affectation"?

Personally, I'm not unhappy that many English people are re-examining what it means to be English - hopefully this will lead to a re-examination of their national identity and place in the world, and force them to include non-whites in their rubric (?) of Englishness. Lots of English people accept people called "British Asians" - but do they accept them as English?

(BTW, this last bit applies to Scotland as well but one rarely seems to hear of "British Asians" when Asian Scots are being discussed).


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## King Biscuit Time (Nov 21, 2001)

English seems increasingly to be thought of as the 'default nationality' as far as i can see, which is a shame. Basically, people only tend to call themselves English if they are devoid of any other nationality to cling to. I'm English, and have lived in Cardiff for a few years and i have a welsh-speaking Girlfriend. Its got to the point now when i pretty much avoid any sort of nationalist chit-chat becuase if invariably leads to a conclusion of being told 'You don't understand what its like to be Welsh' blah blah etc.....
I totaly respect the Welsh language and am learning it,  i think it is historically and culturally important to *preserve* it, but i also belive that people who don't speak welsh should realise that their heritage and culture is important to, in most other countries it would be a point of interest that different lanquages have come to prevail in different cities of the same ancient country.
I find making a really big deal of the language undermines it as a modern european language in its own right (which of course it is and should be) and makes it look more like a relic that should be preserved for the sake of it, rather that the first language of many hundreds of thoudands of people. Whats the point in ramming it down peoles necks? When welsh is spoken all over wales should England recognise Middle english as a language and encourage the speaking of that - that too is of cultural and historical signifiacance . Also, welsh speakers might like to understand that they share with most other people in the world, the fact that their main language is only spoken in their own country and that other languages such as english and spainish are usefull for communicating with other natationalties. England is in a unique situation, with its traditional language being adopted as first language for a lot of the world, and second language for far more.

I have also experienced people who are so unbeliviably hung up on the idea of 'celticness' - to the point that Hitler was keen on ayrians.

in conclusion i think nationalisim is bred mainly from an ignorance and lack of respect of other cultures. I have never heard a welsh person comment on the rich heriatage and history of England. But then come to think of it, i've never heard an English person say that either.


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## editor (Nov 21, 2001)

Just a small point: although Super Furry Aninals are quite rightly congratulated for not 'going along with this nonsense', it should be pointed out that their album before last - Mwng - was sung *entirely* in Welsh.

Here's what Gruff said anbout it in an interview here - http://www.landofsong.net/super_furry_animals/interview.shtml  : 

So when's the album coming out?
May. It's all in Welsh.

What do you think the fans are going to think of it?
I dunno. I don't think language is the most important element of how it sounds. Otherwise you'd just write books

What's the attraction of singing in Welsh for you?
It's easier to ask the other question: why sing in English? We've always sung in Welsh. When we started out we'd sing in Welsh. We'd been in Welsh bands before this band

You used to do a lot of Welsh b-sides, particularly around the time of Fuzzy Logic. Was that the record company demoting them from the albums?
No. Between us we'd released about six or seven albums in various bands in the Welsh language. So we formed an English language band to make accessible music. 

There aren't any ideological terms to decide why we sing in English or Welsh, but on the other hand there's fuzzier reasoning, which is: we don't know, you know. We just do it.

 The real reason is that we speak two languages, and we end up writing in English and Welsh. So, in the past we've put out English language albums, because we've got ambition and we thought it was potentially easier for an international audience. 

Also, I listen to a lot of music where I don't understand the lyrics. Even something like Nirvana. I listen to them but I don't understand the lyrics fully. 

A song like Smells Like Teen Spirit, God knows what he's singing but it sounds great. I think that's very important for music. If you listen to bands like Kraftwerk, if you were singing 'Motorway' it would sound crap, but that Germanic pronunciation makes the sound. We have no commercial expectations for Mwng, but if people are open minded there's no reason why they shouldn't get into it.


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## belzub2 (Nov 21, 2001)

JWH: Surely using the word "Celtic" to mean Welsh, Scots, and Irish is as bad as using the word "British" to mean English? "English" itself is widely misused - sometimes by Americans who think all natives of the British Isles are English, sometimes by people who don't know anything the cultural heritage of the Cornish or any other 'ethnic sub-grouping'. What about the fact that a lot of English probably have a lot of properly Celtic ancestry? Or the fact that most men in Ireland and Wales are (apparently) more closely related to the Basques than the Gauls?

&lt;PONCEY KNOW-IT-ALL BIT&gt;
"British Isles", by the way, is probably not so far off the mark, as Ptolemy referred to islands of Ierne (Ireland) and Albion (Britain) as the "Pretanic Isles".
&lt;/PONCEY KNOW-IT-ALL BIT&gt;


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## King Biscuit Time (Nov 22, 2001)

Re MWNG,
I think the idea of Mwng is about as non-political as you can get. The whole point is Gruff, Bunf, Daf, Guto and Huw speak welsh, and they released an album in that language, the language they grew up speaking to almost everyone of importance around them (I would imagine). This is NOT a politcal statement surely, just a bit of artistic expression. Do you really ed, see a nationalistic message in such a beautiful collection of songs. We must also remember that we are spoilt as English speakers (welsh or otherwise) in that we can pretty much understand (at least on a basic level) the words to nearly all popular music released, and that people who don't understand english are far more used to judging a song on its merits, rather that being offended.
To add to your Kraftwerk point,  are german kraftwerk songs in anyway at all connected to german nationalisim?


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## Voley (Nov 22, 2001)

Good point, Mike.

I thought putting out an album in Welsh was a genuinely positive way of celebrating where you're from. It was a good album, too.

I think this differs (and is much more intelligent) than appealing to the lowest common denominator and singing an anti-English rugby song at one of your gigs.

Like I said before, I think there's a fine line between being proud of your roots and descending into nationalism. As the Super Furry Animals are clearly much more intelligent than the Stereophonics, they've found a good way of doing it.

This is a good thing and I have absolutely no problem with it.

JWH - that Catatonia song may well be ironic. I haven't listened to the lyrics in detail as  I try to avoid them like the plague.


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## William of Walworth (Nov 22, 2001)

Sorry NVP, I was blatantly guilty of rushed skimming there! More on Welsh-related stuff later -- I may be a Landaner, but I spent many of my formative years in North Wales (see one of sub's earlier posts   
Scenically beautiful in that part of the world, but socially .... hmmmmm ...
Always wanted to get back to my home city and escape the parochialism ... MORE LATER.

W of W

[ 22 November 2001: Message edited by: William of Walworth ]


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## calimero (Nov 22, 2001)

King Biscuit time - you seem to be suggesting that a concern for the future of the Welsh language equates directly to nationalism. In reality there is a clear distinction between the two. I don't myself have any nationalistic fervour or passion as such, in fact I actively dislike nationalism for all the damage it has done, usually to small, powerless nations. Similarly I don't think that the vast majority of the 500,000 or so first language Welsh speakers try in any way to ram it down peoples' throats. Socially, legally and politically this is more or less an impossibility anyway - how can a small minority whose language still does not have equal status in the eyes of the law ram it down anyone's throat other than in pissed-rant moments down the pub! 

Personally I've always liked the fact that I was brought up and educated bilingually more than the actual fact that I can speak Welsh. I feel that I have benefitted so much from this and I love the two languages equally. How could I not when there is much beauty in both - Shelley, Peake, Blake etc. on the one hand Dafydd ap Gwilym, Waldo and the Super Furries on the other. It doesn't always have to be a case of one or the other, and the fact that I'm passionate about the Welsh language doesn't detract in any way from my love of the English language and people. 

However the fact that the Welsh language is under real threat of extinction cannot be denied or ignored. If local people can't afford to live in the areas which have traditionally sustained the language, and worse if they can't find jobs there (which is the current situation) then the langauge will die. I don't know the answer to this extremely complex problem, but I know that burying our heads' in the sand, pretending that the language is doing fine just because there's a phoney industry centred around S4C and the Assembly in Cardiff and apologizing for being concerned will not help anyone. 
Bilingualism is one of the coolest things about living in Wales I think, but its existence is not automatic or guaranteed. Raising peoples' awareness of the problem isn't 'ramming it down their throats', it's just part of a defence of rights which are inalienable and an intrinsic part of Welsh identity.


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## Callie (Nov 22, 2001)

Being in Wales at uni (sorry this is slightly off subject) the language barrier is sometimes a problem. Where i work we have recently been learning to speak some Welsh to show customers that we're trying! I have to admit though I'm too scared to speak to anyone in Welsh in case i miss pronounce something. Oh and my boss was teaching me a little poem/song thing about two dogs who lose their shoes in the woods. Dau gi bach?


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## johnwisehammer (Nov 22, 2001)

"Surely using the word "Celtic" to mean Welsh, Scots, and Irish is as bad as using the word "British" to mean English?"

In what way? Celtic is an explicitly ethnic term (and a very loose one that, like you say, applies to Basques, Corsicans, Cornish as well) but nobody's trying to dissolve English peoplehood or culture into it nor trying to use it as a justification for political union (well, maybe about 30 loons that go to summer conferences on the Isle of Man, but you see what I mean).


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## ICB (Nov 22, 2001)

JohnWH: You made your historical point about the origins of a British identity very eloquently in an earlier post, as I said.  Sadly you failed to address any of my questions about alternative descriptors and reinventing usage.  Can we not progress?

There are some interesting inferences in what you say. 

You ponder whether I am happier with a British identity because it was not designed to suppress English identity, yet you acknowledge my distaste for displays of an English identity and criticise that as well.

You also say you are happy that there is a rediscovery or re-exploration of English identity.  Why would this be necessary if it hadn't been far more successfully supplanted by 'Britishness' than the 'Celtic' identities have been?  Do you want people to find reasons to be proud to be English again?

You claim that Mike has a deeply ingrained sense of British because of the context of his use of the word foreign but you seem to see this in a negative way, as somehow indicative of the success of the original campaign, rather than as something that's potentially positive because it crosses contemporary barriers.

I'm sure you appreciate that the idea of a Celtic ethnicity that extends all the way up Europe's Atlantic coast is a massive over-simplification and really little more than romantic mythologysing in the present day.

One of the more encouraging things about genetic research is that it has started to demolish a lot of these ethnic edifices.

To answer your questions, yes I dislike all badges but I recognise their usefulness as rallying points when people are oppressed.  Who oppresses the English?  The rise of the George Cross as a direct reaction to the proliferation of other badges including that of the EU.  It's indicative of a new rise in Nationalism and I dislike Nationalism in all its guises.  

If national identities are to be meaningful and useful in the future then they will have to be freed from ethnic asscoiations, one way or the other.  Flag-waving, tub-thumping and repeated reference to the crimes of history doesn't look to me like the best way to this end.


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## ICB (Nov 22, 2001)

By amazing coincidence I got sent this email today which shows that Britishness has a lot going for it


> Only in Britain... can a pizza get to your house faster than an ambulance.
> 
> Only in Britain... do Supermarkets make the sick people walk all the way to the back of the store to get their prescriptions while healthy people can buy cigarettes at the front.
> 
> ...



Don't we have a lot in common


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## johnwisehammer (Nov 22, 2001)

"Sadly you failed to address any of my questions about alternative descriptors and reinventing usage. Can we not progress?"

Why do we need alternative (really, true) descriptors? What need would they fill? What's the point of trying to reinvent usage if it just legitimises the original mission?

"You ponder whether I am happier with a British identity because it was not designed to suppress English identity, yet you acknowledge my distaste for displays of an English identity and criticise that as well."

There's no inconsistancy there at all - "British" identity is a lie while English identity is still a bit fuzzy in many ways. I just don't see why you are so sneery about people who choose to explore English identity - and in fact, your sneering at them does exactly what the *B*NP (!) and NF would like - that Englishness becomes the reserve of the far right.

"You also say you are happy that there is a rediscovery or re-exploration of English identity. Why would this be necessary if it hadn't been far more successfully supplanted by 'Britishness' than the 'Celtic' identities have been?"

Because "British" hasn't supplanted "English" in content at all - it's a synonym, a rebranding, not a different concept.

"Do you want people to find reasons to be proud to be English again?"

No, I don't really understand national pride at all, but I'd like English people to think more closely about what it means to be English and British, and then we might get somewhere (and preferably, for all of them to magically agree with me, but obviously that's not going to happen).

"You claim that Mike has a deeply ingrained sense of British because of the context of his use of the word foreign but you seem to see this in a negative way, as somehow indicative of the success of the original campaign, rather than as something that's potentially positive because it crosses contemporary barriers."

There's a difference between surpassing boundaries and just moving them; I think it's a case of the latter. You seem to be in this bizarre state of having a definition of "British" that is entirely contemporary and completely divorced from its _continuing_ purpose, origin and meaning.

Obviously ethnicity is scientifically meaningless - much more like the "imagined communities" of whathisname than any sort of 'knowledge' because it's self-identification. Which is what pisses me off about it being used as justification for Britain's existence.

"I dislike all badges but I recognise their usefulness as rallying points when people are oppressed."

Well, I think you're wrong to dismiss culture and identity as something that's only valuable to look at when people are endangered.

Who's advocating a nationality based on ethnic assumptions? Personally, I'm in favour of hyphenated identity that matches national/cultural ancestry with present identity. There's plenty of "Asians" that are far more Scots than I am! So what's wrong with Pakistani Scots, for instance? (Apart from the fact that Scottish Scots looks a bit funny, as does English English).

The crimes of history? Bollocks. The divorce of peoples from their culure, language and history is ongoing and to say "ah, well, it's too late now, they all might as well speak English and have their identity totally formed by the state" is simply to collude in it.

Still no comment on the absence of ridiculing Jamaican Englishmen.


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## johnwisehammer (Nov 22, 2001)

PS That last one uses British in the sense of citizenship, not identity. Obiovusly the two are discrete.

We can all find examples of the word British being used but it doesn't make it mean anything more or less legitimate, just like we can all find lots of examples of people being called "niggers".


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## William of Walworth (Nov 22, 2001)

I haven't been back to my old North Wales haunts for ten years but I anticipate getting nto this thread within that time   - it's an excellent one.


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## ICB (Nov 22, 2001)

Oh dear.    



> Why do we need alternative (really, true) descriptors?



That's what I asked you, because of your wholesale demolition of British identity.  



> What's the point of trying to reinvent usage if it just legitimises the original mission?



Whether there's a point to reinventing usage or not is not the point, it _is_ reinvented constantly, that's how language works.  I have no interest in legitimising your conception, or mine, of the "original mission", if the diffuse set of various powers and interests and the colonial imperialsism that they collectively participated in can be seen is such generalised conspiracy-implied terms.



> I just don't see why you are so sneery about people who choose to explore English identity - and in fact, your sneering at them does exactly what the BNP (!) and NF would like - that Englishness becomes the reserve of the far right


I don't sneer at those actually wanting to explore English or any other identity.  I don't see why you are so sneery about those wanting to explore British identity.  BNP, NAZI (_socialist_), so what?  Your point about us preventing Englishness being the preserve of the far right surely applies to Britishness.



> I don't really understand national pride at all, but I'd like English people to think more closely about what it means to be English and British, and then we might get somewhere (and preferably, for all of them to magically agree with me, but obviously that's not going to happen).


Agreed on all points, just checking the common ground with that one.



> There's a difference between surpassing boundaries and just moving them; I think it's a case of the latter.


I'm not clear what you mean here, is the use of the word 'foreign' in that context regrettable or inaccurate as far as you are concerned?



> You seem to be in this bizarre state of having a definition of "British" that is entirely contemporary and completely divorced from its continuing purpose, origin and meaning.


Do I?  That's funny, I don't feel like I am.  I rather thought we were exploring the definition of these things.  

So do you want to throw the word away and disapprove of my position and the use of the word foreign in the earlier context or do you want to admit that there may be some malleability in what you call this _continuing_ meaning and also its purpose, whilst not forgetting its origin?  (How could we with you around?  3rd post in a row banging on the same drum)



> I think you're wrong to dismiss culture and identity as something that's only valuable to look at when people are endangered.


I didn't say that and you're bright enough to know it.



> Who's advocating a nationality based on ethnic assumptions?


Plenty of people, as you know.



> I'm in favour of hyphenated identity that matches national/cultural ancestry with present identity.


Surely composite rather than hyphentated, but I know what you mean.



> There's plenty of "Asians" that are far more Scots than I am! So what's wrong with Pakistani Scots, for instance?


I don't really understand why you ask this but if you mean semtantically, nothing if you hold dual-nationality.



> The divorce of peoples from their culure, language and history is ongoing and to say "ah, well, it's too late now, they all might as well speak English and have their identity totally formed by the state" is simply to collude in it.


Agreed, I'm interested as to where I said this was my agenda.



> Still no comment on the absence of ridiculing Jamaican Englishmen.


Frankly I find your presumption and implications throughout this post (and previous ones) insulting.     

My brother-in-law and very close friend is a 'Jamaican Englishman', although I'm sure he would never describe himself that way.  They happen to be coming to stay this weekend, it's his birthday.  He knows my views on flags/badges/nationalism and he knows my deep respect and love of his cultural heritage.

For that matter I have Irish, Cornish, Welsh and French lines in my immediate family.

You're obviously very well informed , nay erudite, why don't you read other peoples' posts a little more attentively and re-read my comments on the principle of charity?

[ 22 November 2001: Message edited by: ICantBelieve ItsNotBetter ]

[ 22 November 2001: Message edited by: ICantBelieve ItsNotBetter ]


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## ICB (Nov 22, 2001)

> That last one uses British in the sense of citizenship, not identity. Obiovusly the two are discrete



Yes they are distinct, but related and you couldn't have a citizenship without some form of associated identity, yet in your earlier post you said 


> "British" identity is a lie


 ??

[ 23 November 2001: Message edited by: ICantBelieve ItsNotBetter ]


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## belzub2 (Nov 22, 2001)

> In what way? Celtic is an explicitly ethnic term



What about the linguistic term "Celtic" to mean the family of Indo-European languages identified as Celtic? What about the archaeological term "Celtic" to mean a distinctive style of art that arose in Iron Age Europe?



> (and a very loose one that, like you say, applies to Basques, Corsicans, Cornish as well)



Actually, that's not what I said (or meant) - what I did mean was that most current usage of the word is inaccurate and historically unsound.



> but nobody's trying to dissolve English peoplehood or culture into it nor trying to use it as a justification for political union (well, maybe about 30 loons that go to summer conferences on the Isle of Man, but you see what I mean).



I accept that certain people might have attempted to do the same with 'Britishness' and 'Celticness', why does that make the use of the word "British" any less flawed that the use of the word "Celtic"?


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## Space Girl (Nov 22, 2001)

The Welsh language is more alive today than it has been for years, Preseli school I believe is now teaching all subjects in Welsh only, any non-Welsh speaker in the area have to go to st.Clears school, which is miles away! I don't know if that is a good thing or not!
But surely to keep the language alive the people who have the advantage of it being their first language should at least speak it correctly otherwise it will get bastardised.


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## Belle (Nov 23, 2001)

Not all welsh people pretend to like 'cool cymru' bands! I am from Wales and I can't stand Catatonia, Stereophonics (mono-phonics)or the Manic Street Preachers. I hated them when I lived in Wales and I hate them now. I get insulted when I tell people where I am from and they assume I like these "bands." 
I do think that I wouldn't hate them as much if they didn't profess to this whole Welsh nationalism thing, which gets right down my throat considering we all come from the same landmass. 
The worst thing is, someone with my opinions cannot get on either in Wales or England, because the Welsh don't like it when you criticise their nationalism and well, the English just don't like the Welsh. Or they just feel that they are superior? So I come to England and get stick from the people I have been sticking up for all my life!!
The only potency Catatonia have for me is the fond memory I get when I wake up in the morning and thank the lord I no longer live in Wales. It is far easier to be an open-minded Welsh person outside of Wales than it is inside.


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## ICB (Nov 23, 2001)

Belle: nice perspective in your post


> someone with my opinions cannot get on either in Wales or England


You get on fine with me though


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## johnwisehammer (Nov 23, 2001)

Okay, then:

You say we need to find new descriptors of Britishness; I ask why; you say "because I asked". I'm asking why you think it's important to have such a concept. What desireable purpose does it serve? 

Colonialism isn't a "conspiracy", it's a plan, it's something that's done perfectly openly and through legal channels.

Englishness has a legitimate core that can be reconciled with democratic values. Britishness doesn't, like "Aryan", it's a fucking madey-uppy, no good word that does very few people any favours.

I'm not saying Mike's use of the word foreign is or isn't regrettable in this context, necessarily. I'm drawing (trying to) the distinction between what you were saying (that British "positive because it crosses contemporary barriers") and what it actually does - just moving those barriers a couple of hundred miles west to keep people in or others out.

I'd be perfectly happy if British was never used as a cultural/national descriptor and only used as an attribute of citizenship. "you couldn't have a citizenship without some form of associated identity". You certainly can in the sense you create a citizenship (which is an attribute of statehood, not anything cultural or identity-based) and then create an identity to attach to it.

When you say "dual nationality", do you mean dual citizenship or "mixed" nationality?

I'm certainly not going to bother trying to defend ethnic-based citizenship or using "Celtic" as a basis for political union or action simply because I don't believe in either of them. I think you both must be confusing me with someone else.

I'm really curious why it is that Welsh and Scots who display their national symbols are "twats" while you haven't said the same thing about English of Jamaican "origin". Your brother-in-law should self-indentify whoever he wants - but why do you seem to have such an interest in making sure people identify as British (or as a new word that means the same thing)?

"Some of my best friends are English".


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## creamofsumyungai (Nov 24, 2001)

Well some people are as proud of their Welsh blood as their German, American or Czech blood.  Some people go overboard and freak out.  You have to regard the fine line.


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## pk (Nov 24, 2001)

Oh, dear. As always pk has to be the voice of sense. 

*sigh.  

Reason to hate Wales.






Reason to love Wales.







> Catatonia were second-rate pub-rock fronted by a caterwauling fishwife



LMFAO!!!


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## belzub2 (Nov 24, 2001)

> Britishness doesn't, like "Aryan", it's a fucking madey-uppy, no good word that does very few people any favours.



I think you'll find it comes from a Celtic (har har har) word used to describe the Britons and their language. How is that as "madey-uppy" as "Aryan"?


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## johnwisehammer (Nov 24, 2001)

&lt;slaps forehead&gt;

Not word, "concept as a value-free definition of identity" then. Aryans were a bunch of people from the Indian subcontinent, IIRC.

Jesus.


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## ICB (Nov 26, 2001)

> You say we need to find new descriptors of Britishness; I ask why; you say "because I asked". I'm asking why you think it's important to have such a concept. What desireable purpose does it serve?



I didn't say we needed new descriptors, I asked you whether you thought we needed them or whether we should try to adjust or adapt the descriptors we already have.  The latter seems the more realistic course to progress on.

I think it's important to have such a concept because there are interests, language and a landmass that we all have in common.  I hope this is illustrated by my examples and that in others' posts.

Having had a chance to chat about this over the weekend it transpires (as suspected) that my b-in-l thinks and talks of himself as "British Afro-Carribean" and sees "Jamaican Englishman" as petty, devisive and indicative of a serious misunderstanding of the issues.

This may lead you to conclude that he is in some way a victim of the conspiracy to inculcate Englishness via Britishness.  However, he would reject this and suggest that he and others (myself included) do not use British in that way and are well aware of the origins of the word and the Union.

You seem confused about the relationship between a cultural/national descriptor and an associated identity to the point where you contradict yourself in your last post.  The whole way in which you talk about it again implies some over-arching intelligence or conspiracy behind the whole campaign, (who creates a cultural/national citizenship and then (seperately?) an identity ot attach to it?) which I think is silly.

I don't know what you mean by "mixed nationality".  Nationality is distinct from heritage and ethnicity as far as I'm concerned.  Dual nationality = two passports (or equivalent recognition on registers of birth, marriage, death, tax, etc.), multiple nationality = more than two passports (or equiv.).

Welsh and Scots who display their national symbols or engage in other flag-waving/tub-thumping are not such twats (for doing so) as the English who do it and in turn those of Jamaican, Pakistani, etc.. origin are less twatish than the Welsh or Scots who do it.  This is for the reasons outlined earlier (history of oppression, statement of belonging, etc.).  However, I still think that e.g. African Americans who go around wearing Africa symbols are twattish in the same way, just less so by degree.

I don't have an interest in "making sure people identify as British" and of course my b-in-l will decide what he is most comfortable with and why.  My point is that he (and many others like him) may have something valid to impart to people with your attitude if you will only listen.



> "Some of my best friends are English".


  That must be nice for you.



> REAL GREAT BRITAIN
> 
> Union Jack and Union Jill
> Back up and down the same old hill
> ...


 Asian Dub Foundation

I'm interested in all of us (in Britain)trying to work this out together.  To do this we need to be aware of _all_ our histories and heritages but not see them as immovable obstacles to progress, which is all I can presently take from your characterization of "British".  Can we still not move this on to discuss what the alternatives are and why people feel as they do about the appropriateness of Britishness?


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## editor (Nov 26, 2001)

On a more simplistic note, you can't really blame Welsh folk for waving a Welsh flag around when there's some flag waving to be done: the British flag contains the red cross of St George, the white cross on a blue background of St Andrew and the red diagonal cross of St Patrick - and not a single mention of Wales whatsoever!

This is because by the time the flag was dreamt up Wales was already (legally, at least) 'united' with England.

I think a nice red dragon right across the Union Jack might look rather fetching...


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## ICB (Nov 26, 2001)

I agree with the point about the unrepresentativeness of the Union flag Mike (and pointed out on a thread a few weeks ago).  It's a shit flag anyway and at least the Welsh flag is cool  

I wonder whether the rise in popularity of the George cross, on car bumpers, number plates, in living room windows, is in part a response to the resrugence of flag-waving encouraged by devolution.  I think there's more uncertainty and insecurity about the English identity at present.


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## johnwisehammer (Nov 26, 2001)

"While middle England keeps swinging its loyalty"

Well, quite.  

"I'm interested in all of us (in Britain) trying to work this out together."

Look, this is the heart of your problem. What is there to work out? Can Orthodox Jews and Neo-Nazis 'work it out', or is it just time for the Neo-Nazis to fuck off?

'This may lead you to conclude that he is in some way a victim of the conspiracy to inculcate Englishness via Britishness.'

Ask yourself the alternative question: why is it that white Englishmen are so keen for nonwhites to call themselves British and not English?

Citizenship = attribute of the state; nationality = cultural/ethnic/national/fuzzy-edged identity, not necessarily anything to do with the state. You're saying that nationality is something you get from the state - so what are Jews, Kurds, Palestinians? They have a distinct nationality but no state to derive it from. You're confusing the state and nation-state.

"I think it's important to have such a concept because there are interests, language and a landmass that we all have in common."

We only have a 'common' language and landmass in common because England colonised us!  Why do we need a common word to describe ourselves just because we live (not share) in the same part of the world?

So there we have it. a line of superiority and right to have a national and cultural identity, as decreed by you: Pakistanis =&gt; Welsh and Scots =&gt; English. Why do you equate expressions of my identity with tub-thumping? What is it that you have to lose?

Is it because I is white?


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## johnwisehammer (Nov 26, 2001)

"British Social Attitudes" published today by Sage. Excerpt, The Guardian, p.8:

'A declining number of people think of themselves as British. In England 47% describe themselves in this way (compared with 63% in 1992) and 41% think of themselves as English (31% in 1992). In Scotland 82% describe themselves as Scottish (72% in 1992) and only 13% as British (25% in 1992).'


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## Belle (Nov 26, 2001)

I Cant Believe Its Not better: Good to know that there's someone else out there who wants to get on with me!!!!!
Love ya


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## ICB (Nov 26, 2001)

Edited to say Belle, you are very welcome and provide an excellent case in point of the subtleties and greyness (as opp. to B&W) of the discussion.  

JohnWH:   





> "While middle England keeps swinging its loyalty"
> Well, quite.



Well quite what?  Hardly a point well made, not a point at all in fact.  Perhaps the interesting point is that there is a "middle Britain" at the heart of the problem ADF are talking about, not a "middle England" or perhaps you think the apathetic elements of the Scottish and Welsh "middle classes" are above reproach?

"Look, this is the heart of your problem."
Listen, look, what I mean to say is you've gone a bit Tony there haven't you?

"What is there to work out?"
Identity.  Why me and many others want to call ourselves British and emphasise commonality, but you (and others) don't want them to.

"Can Orthodox Jews and Neo-Nazis 'work it out', or is it just time for the Neo-Nazis to fuck off?"

And by the same line....Can Palestinians and Orthodox Jews work it out or is it just time for the Palestinians to fuck off?  Your point being what?  How do you get the Neo-Nazis to fuck off?  Are you another who thinks that the idea we can defeat the fucks in face to face debate is just a "liberal fantasy" and that we should therefore outlaw them, intern them, etc.?

"why is it that white Englishmen are so keen for nonwhites to call themselves British and not English?"
I'm not sure which "white Englishmen" you are referring to here, perhaps it's all of them?  I'm interested in what people _do_ call themselves, _why_ and what others (like you) construe from it, and why.  

I (unlike you) have no particular agenda or axe to gind on this other than wanting to see more harmony and understanding, less divisiveness.

"You're saying that nationality is something you get from the state - so what are Jews, Kurds, Palestinians?"
They are Jews, Kurds and Palestinians.  If you mean what is "Jewishness", "Kurdishness" and "Palestianishness" then the answer is different and immensely complex in each case.  One difference is that Jews have a nation state whereas the others do not.  Another would be that "Jewishness" conflates racial/ethinic identity with religion in a much stronger way than the others.

"You're saying that nationality is something you get from the state"

Where?  Nationality is clearly an inherited property of the citizens of nation states.  "Kurdish" isn't (yet) a nationality (where's the nation?), although we might agree that it should be.  It is a racially/ethnically derived identity.  Someone who comes to the UK as an asylum seeker and becomes a British national has a British nationality that doesn't negate or remove their "Kurdishness".

For the same reason one can be a British Jew (or an English Jew if you prefer) whilst having only a UK passport.  However, you cannot be a British Israeli unless you hold dual-nationality.

A British Afro-Carribean would be inaccurate in describing themselves as a "Jamaican Englishman" unless they held dual-nationality.  "English Jamaican" likewise and seems, from anecdotal evidence, to have too much weighting towards a parochial English identity on the one hand (vs British or European) and a parohical Jamaican identity on the other (vs Carribean or Afro-Carribean).  It all depends on the facets of ones heritage and identity that one chooses to emphasise.  The broader the category the more inculsive, by necessity.



> So there we have it. a line of superiority and right to have a national and cultural identity, as decreed by you: Pakistanis =&gt; Welsh and Scots =&gt; English.



No again you (deliberately?) misread me.  What I said was that there is a hierarchy of understandability or of justification on the basis of former wrong-doings, where twattish waving of flags is concerned.  This doesn't remove the silliness of the whole thing, just means that it is more natural for some people to engage in the silliness than others.



> Why do you equate expressions of my identity with tub-thumping?


I don't.  I equate flag-waving and badges with tub-thumping.  My concern is that your understanding of your identity seems retrograde.  A more appropriate quote from that lyric would be 

"Shoe gazer nation forever looking backwards"

since I can't seem to get you to progress the debate beyond your original point about the origins of Britishness (as opposed to its current and future use).  This idea of "britishness" that you have is radically over-simplified and actually does a disservice to your fellow Scots as well as the Welsh and Irish.  

The British Empire, and the consequent understanding of Britishness, had massive involvement from powerful and influential Scots, Welsh and Irish throughout its grwoth and decline.  These people were hugely influential in the aims and methods of empire and English attempts to play down their part has recently been highlighted and partially redressed by academe in London, Dublin, Edinburgh, Cardiff and elsewhere.

The real disctinction was a "class"/power one between those involved in empire, of whatever nation, who were of the ruling class and had capital/power and those, of whatever nation, who were their victims, or at least disposable resources in the great game.

So I once again encourage you to move the debate forward.  

Do you want to see an end to the use and usefulness of a "British" identity?  

Would you replace it with anything?  

How would you propose to bring about the changes that you see as desirable, including changing the way people think about and use this word at present?

I can't help feeling that had I slagged off Britishness royally and gone in for a bit of talking-up Englishness you would have been just as obstreperous.

I don't really understand the relevance of the quoted statistics.  Do you feel this lends weight to your argument somehow?  Perhaps you need to define your argument a little better first.

Personally I find those statistics, or at least the implied changes in attitude, a cause for concern, since I believe they are driven by a resurgence of nationalism.

[ 26 November 2001: Message edited by: ICantBelieve ItsNotBetter ]


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## Leon (Nov 26, 2001)

Editor:

St David's flag is included in the Union Jack to supposedly represent Wales. Its very subtle though, almost marginalised you could say.

[ 26 November 2001: Message edited by: Leon ]


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## johnwisehammer (Nov 26, 2001)

The point about why 'Middle England" is used and why 'Middle Britain' never is that it's a supposedly uncontroversial (you can't even see it when it's being discussed, apparantly) usage of England and Britain being interchangeable.

You want to work out your identity? Fine - go ahead. I just don't see why you have to drag other people into it. Why are you so keen to subsume Scots, Welsh, Irish into your identity? You arguing a totally bonkers line here - that 'we' can have any identity we like, so long as it includes English people and that an identity that includes English people is somehow desireable.

Why target the Scots or Welsh? Why not look for common identities with the French or Dutch (far closer in religious, economic and linguistic terms)? What's the political motivation you're working towards?

Why is it that you equate diversity with divisiveness? 

There's no need to search for compromise between Neo-Nazis and Orthodox Jews because Neo-Nazis are simply _wrong_. There would be no possible compromise that did not legitimise Nazi ideology.

"I (unlike you) have no particular agenda or axe to gind on this other than wanting to see more harmony and understanding, less divisiveness."

What's my agenda, then? Harmony and understanding cannot be achieved if there's an unequal balance of power and a refusal to acknowledge the other's right to exist and express itself.

"Nationality is clearly an inherited property of the citizens of nation states."

No, it's not. You're simply wrong here because nations predated states. The nation-state is a form of state but not all states are nations. For fifty-ish years there wasn't a meaningful Estonian or Slovak state. Does this mean that the Estonian and Slovak nations simply did not exist and then reappeared after 1991?

I can buy a Panamanian passport tomorrow. Does that make me part of the Panamanian nation? In quite a few East European states, for instance, there are seperate boxes for citizenship and nationality, so you can be full Serbian citizen and a Hungarian national.

Nationality's a fuzzy concept, an 'imagined community' but it's usually loosely based around ideas like common histories, commony myths, a common language, a shared identification with particular pieces of land, common religions. States are just mechanisms for the execution of power.

"A British Afro-Carribean would be inaccurate in describing themselves as a "Jamaican Englishman" unless they held dual-nationality. "

What gives you the right to tell people how they can describe themselves? What about Albanian Macedonians? Inuit Canadians? Armenian Azerbaijanis?

"Shoe gazer nation forever looking backwards" = "I don't know why those Jews/Pakistanis/Armenians/Chechens/Zulus don't stop whinging about the past and just get on with things. After all, it's not as if it affects anything today, is it?"

"Do you want to see an end to the use and usefulness of a "British" identity?"

There's no usefulness in the term as a marker of personal/collective/national, as far as I (and 82% of Scots apparantly) am concerned, just in the context of statehood. English people can call themselves just whatever they like but don't imagine that the people you're including would include themselves - like "Yugoslav" withering away until only some Serbs would use it.

"Would you replace it with anything?"

No. There's nothing for it to stand for.


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## inflatable jesus (Nov 26, 2001)

ICB

Interesting that you quoted that ADF lyric. I always understood it to be talking about the rather chauvanistic uses of symbols of British nationalism. In particular the use of union jacks within the mid-nineties indie/ britpop period.

 Personally, I found the whole Britpop/ britart / britlit, cool britania bollocks to be beyond preposterous. Kind of a last hysterical push at creating a new and relevant meaning of Britishness in the face of devolution which *clearly* signalled the end of Britain as a political unit.



> I'm interested in all of us (in Britain)trying to work this out together. To do this we need to be aware of all our histories and heritages but not see them as immovable obstacles to progress



I'm interested in what you mean by this and in particular what you would regard as progress. For me the end of the use of Britishness as a national identity is an inevitability and something I would regard as progress.

I also dont see how you could possibly not see the relevance of JWH's statistics  to this debate. I think it shows quite clearly how quickly this view of national identity is becoming outdated.

To talk about this in terms of a 're-surgence of nationalism' makes very little sense. It's merely substituting one nationalism for another. However, I think that you equate english nationalism with something more distasteful for some reason.

IMO I think that if progress is to be made, then English people have to begin to look meaningfully at what it means to be English.

Then perhaps we can start looking at how little *any* nationalism can actually do for us.


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## ICB (Nov 26, 2001)

IJ: Yes, that's the gist of the lyrics, and what they ask is for the 'real great britain' to step forward and I'm asking us to consider that as something that is still a possibility.

IJ/JWH: In seeking to defend people that use 'British' as being entitled to call themselves whatever they like I seem to have been tarred with the brush I started off holding, accused of prescribing what others can or can't call themselves.

I suggested that there can be positive aspects to being British and good reasons for people to want to call themselves that and it was against this notion that axes were ground.

Nationalism is more on the political agenda in all parts of the UK, hence a resurgence (stats for Plaid Cymru/SNP support?).


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## Belle (Dec 6, 2001)

This thread is being used as an excuse for people to show off with long words and historical knowledge. Nothing being solved, is there? No valid opinions? No wonder nothing can be done about it, with all this padding. Why can't you just say what you mean, not dress it up? I'm starting to flick past posts!!!!
And I am actually Welsh!


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## Iainmc (Dec 7, 2001)

Yeah good point however so things I would like to contribute to this thread. I think everyone on this thread would aggree with a certain perspective of nationalism is good for one's sense of self and can be bad if it spills over for intolerance of others or particularly towards the "English" if your'e scotish,welsh or Irish.
Whilst there is plenty of reasons to bitch about what the English did to the Celts who lived on this Island and in Ireland it can get confused by the simple fact that maybe the only sad fact of the thing is that the native languages of this country were wiped out generally except for small pockets in the north west of Scotland,West coast of Ireland and the southwest of Ireland and in Wales.Cornish and Manx is gone forever and so is a entire history of people who lived in this land.
However, what really gets my goat is the revivalist's who enforce it on others as part of a national obligation.
For instance I am a native Gaelic speaker for Ireland yep Gaelic first English learnt while at school. In Ireland an Irish American Dev a Laire made Irish compulsory in schools in the 1930's and it is continued to this day. As my grandmother used to say its the same type of people which tried to stamp out gaelic speaking are the same people trying to enforce it.
However, instead of reviving it they have put most people totally off it as a result.
As for the vitrol comment that the Irish leaders were not affected and were used to defeat the Welsh is fucking nonsense.
For a start the Irish system composed of elected kings and queens yep even in the middle ages and earlier. 
The Irish as a result had to learn and I mean everyone to ethier read, write or a skill to contribute to the clans.
The laws were called the "Brehon" laws whilst the normans with the right of elder sons refered to their "common law".
The situation was such a headache for queen Liz the first cause her favourites were not elected as the Ard Na Ri or high king of Ireland .Grainne Maol a chieftain from Galway was chosen to be the Ard Na Ri.
Anyway Ireland has written historical records dating back to the 3rd century and some familes have oral traditions.
Anyway... history dates to note. 1688 the Irish under Patrick Starsfield defeated the English finally in a victory where the English promised to withdraw ... Since The English had a reputation for keeping their word the armies of the chieftains disbanded.
The English returned in a year and imposed the penal laws of 1691 where anyone caught reading or writing was killed.
Nethier was outward display of native culture.
The chieftain the ruling familes fled to the basque region of spain which they traded with frequently.
In subsequent battles for other foreign nations the regiments were dubbed 
"The wild geese" which relates to the tale of the children of lir in gaelic which was a metaphor for being forced from your own land.
They (the ordinary native Irish) were only allowed to eat the new foodstuff imported from the Americans from Sir walter Raleigh.. The potato.
These laws were only removed in 1849. After the potato famine in which over 4 million ethier died or emmigrated mainly to America.
In the beginning of the twentieth century.The fight for independence was caused by the Import of the "black and tans" which were convicts of britain given arms and told to quell the Irish.
They raped, maimed and killed without being accountable and many families in Ireland can tell you about events which today would be called genocide.
So finally I come to another point that unfortuately for some people and I mean provisionals cannot move on and in fact I find them insulting cause they take nationalism and nation grievances and perpetuate more trouble for the Irish.
But unfortunately the history taught in Britain is not balanced. You don't get an empire by being nice and often you have to be brutal to dissidents within your own borders which is what happend to the Scots, the welsh and the Irish but ... lets all move on shall we and take people as we find and not judge the person in front of us by their history ....


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## johnwisehammer (Dec 7, 2001)

...but equally, let's not impose our history, language, religion and values upon them.


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## Iainmc (Dec 7, 2001)

Well said aggree totally J


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## Iainmc (Dec 7, 2001)

so when is the English history books going to recognise the variety of different cultures which started this country and its empire.
It would be a start and how knows maybe one day the upper enchlons of power might then also be able to declare this nation a multicultural society which it refuses to do to this very day.


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## Belzub (Dec 8, 2001)

Personally I think that we should make the new British flag a red dragon on a white background, since according to the legends this was the first national flag...

Plus it would would look so cool next to all those other boring European flags!!


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## editor (Sep 3, 2004)

*Thread reopened because I don't know why it ever got closed!


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## beria (Oct 27, 2015)

they are just social fascists, in the old days of the USSR , the NKVD would have put them out of their misery !


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## editor (Oct 27, 2015)

beria said:


> they are just social fascists, in the old days of the USSR , the NKVD would have put them out of their misery !


Who are 'social fascists'?


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## Belushi (Oct 27, 2015)

That's some bumping!


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## William of Walworth (Nov 13, 2015)

Belushi said:


> That's some bumping!




Very true -- I'm wondering myself whether there's _ever_ been a bump of an Urban  thread as old as from 14 years ago! 
The 2004 bump from editor  doesn't count because it lasted only one post ...

Whatever I wrote/posted back in 2001 I've completely forgotten about now


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## Mungy (Nov 22, 2015)

I've been living in Gwynedd for 8 years now and have encountered a handful of aggressively xenophobic nationalists. One in particular stood out as they told me they could trace their family back hundreds of years to this part of Wales and that I shouldn't bother learning the language as the one they teach isn't the real language anyway and it's too hard to learn. Another just hated scousers in general.

On the other side of it, a few English incomers I know have tried to learn Welsh, but failed because their Welsh speaking friends, family, neighbours, random people in shops laughed at them. Now these incomers are not xenophobic, but there is a level of intolerance and indifference of the Welsh language from them. After all, everyone can speak English.

I'm learning Welsh again via Bangor uni and also doing an intensive "Say Something in Welsh" course. I'm determined to be part of the Welsh speaking community whether they want me or not


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## Gromit (Nov 22, 2015)

You aren't learning Welsh. You are learning gog and no-one down in the civilised south will understand a word you say.


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## planetgeli (Jan 11, 2016)

The OP wanted to hear someone defend Welsh nationalists and someone criticize them. Come round my house...

My partner and I moved to a very Welsh speaking and nationalist part of Wales (from London) about 12 years ago. For starters, we both vote Plaid Cymru. Not for the nationalism, but because they are far more to the left (down here in the south anyway) than any alternative. Tax the rich. No to war in Iraq. Etc.

However, we have both certainly faced racism and intolerance. My g/f, because of work, far more than I. Hence, I'm the one defending Welsh nationalism while she is more critical. 

If you have been pissed on by your next door neighbour for 800 years or more I can see why you might be a bit bothered about it. Unfortunately it seems to have created a nation, the only race of people I've ever come across, with an inferiority complex. Most racism comes from some sort of assumed superiority. Not the Welsh. I've had the word 'intellectual' used against me as an insult not once but twice. I wouldn't mind so much but it's not a description I'd ever apply to myself.

As for the language...hmm, yeah. I spent two long years trying to learn it. If I'd put that much effort in with Spanish I'd be somewhere near fluent. I can't even say 'I' with any confidence in Welsh. I am fully supportive of maintaining culture and language is a cornerstone of culture. But it's almost total non-relation to any other living language does not help. And that's not just an English perspective. I work in schools and am fully aware of Welsh kids indifference (to put it mildly) at mandatory Welsh in schools.

I have loads more to add but am a bit rushed right now. And I'll see if anyone 'bites' on this first.

Ymlaen Cymraeg.


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## chilango (Jan 11, 2016)

> A good degree in Welsh
> On the Volvo a Tafod Y Ddraig sticker,
> Fond of attending tiresome committee meetings
> About the future of the language in particular,
> ...


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## planetgeli (Jan 13, 2016)

Right on man. But I find it easier to debate with an individual's actual words than a splurge of thirty year out of date song lyrics.

So when you're ready...


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## editor (Jan 13, 2016)

"I would rather be a junkie
Than be as green as a Plaid Cymru poster."

Jeez.


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## chilango (Jan 13, 2016)

Those Datblygu lyrics express a weary cynicism towards nationalism in a Welsh context far better than I can.

In my youth I was a Welsh nationalist activist. Member of Plaid Cymru, Cymdeithas Yr Iaith and dabbling in the far murkier waters of the periphery around Meibion Glyndwr (though I should hasten to add not MG themselves!).

I've no time for nationalism, or patriotism of any stripe these days.


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## planetgeli (Jan 13, 2016)

Well...I've always been a cynic towards nationalism myself. Reading Irish history it was a lot easier to get behind Sinn Fein and Irish republicanism once they found a socialist agenda rather than an out and out nationalist rhetoric. Likewise, as I mentioned with Plaid, it's easier to support the 'tax the rich', 'no war in Iraq/Syria' side that comes out of southern Welsh Plaid than the purely nationalistic northern branches of the party.

But nothing is black and white. And having been to Caernarfon more than once, seeing how they don't even have a fucking railway station in the place where the Prince of Wales is invested - the same Prince of Wales of whom it is written into UK law 'can never be a Welshman' - and I've more than a soft spot of understanding for where Meibion Glyndwr might be coming from. I might have burned a few English 'holiday homes' if I came from such a place where I felt cut off from but ruled by England.

None of which detracts from my own weary cynicism (and experience) of petty nationalistic farmers (whoever) who take pride in their ignorance gained from never attempting to cross the Severn Bridge. I live in an area for who the word 'parochial' was probably invented. Its one thing to try and protect your own culture and language in order that it might thrive, quite another to do so at the expense of all other available cultures.


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## butchersapron (Jan 19, 2016)

This collection of archive documents and commentary on the Welsh Socialist Republican experience has just been put on-line:

Socialism and National Liberation: the red thread of Welsh Socialist Republicanism.

Confusingly, the documents links are not in the document index, the links appear in the decade overviews.


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## chilango (Jan 19, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> This collection of archive documents and commentary on the Welsh Socialist Republican experience has just been put on-line:
> 
> Socialism and National Liberation: the red thread of Welsh Socialist Republicanism.
> 
> Confusingly, the documents links are not in the document index, the links appear in the decade overviews.



Interesting. 

Sparse and badly organised.

Sums up the tradition quite well I feel!


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## agricola (Jan 20, 2016)

Nationalism is a daft idea at the best of times, but especially so for us Welsh.


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## Iolo (Jan 26, 2016)

agricola said:


> Nationalism is a daft idea at the best of times, but especially so for us Welsh.


 Well, we've been shat on since 1536 if not longer, so it would be nice to see the arseholes gone, if you ask me.	I'm just a non-arse-licker, mind.


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## Gavin Bl (Jan 26, 2016)

I think that really speaking, Wales so small, and so overwhelmed by England and the English language, that it doesn't require oppression as such, although it has probably felt like it at times - Englands sheer dominance within the UK, and particularly with Wales being so bound into England, even in bare geographical terms - means that Welsh society is completely permeated by Englishness.   Attempts at protecting the language can seem closed-minded, but it is in the full knowledge that anything less will be hopelessly diluted in time, by the pervasiveness of English. 

Don't think the snipes about the language are necessary, it makes perfect sense if you grow up within it - but I do agree that Welsh nationalism is marked by a strong fear of inferiority (maybe most nationalisms are - and deal with it by being the opposite) to the English.


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## editor (Jan 27, 2016)

Gavin Bl said:


> I think that really speaking, Wales so small, and so overwhelmed by England and the English language, that it doesn't require oppression as such, although it has probably felt like it at times - Englands sheer dominance within the UK, and particularly with Wales being so bound into England, even in bare geographical terms - means that Welsh society is completely permeated by Englishness.   Attempts at protecting the language can seem closed-minded, but it is in the full knowledge that anything less will be hopelessly diluted in time, by the pervasiveness of English.
> 
> Don't think the snipes about the language are necessary, it makes perfect sense if you grow up within it - but I do agree that Welsh nationalism is marked by a strong fear of inferiority (maybe most nationalisms are - and deal with it by being the opposite) to the English.


Well, when I was growing up, I was made to feel that being Welsh was inferior. Endless putdowns for being Welsh were the norm and I was taught very little Welsh history in school - and my band's first review in the NME would be considered seriously xenophobic now.


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## chilango (Jan 27, 2016)

I can remember at the tail end of the 80s and start of the 90s there were still cases of workers being sacked for speaking Welsh to each other when the boss couldn't speak Welsh.

There was also a more general climate of discrimination against Welsh speakers, and the Welsh language.

There was also a bit of (pretty minor in the grand scheme of things) heavy handed police investigation into the militant Welsh nationalist scene that could've been read as and/or portrayed as "oppression" by interested parties.

Neither of which validates a nationalist response, however.


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## Gavin Bl (Jan 27, 2016)

editor said:


> Well, when I was growing up, I was made to feel that being Welsh was inferior. Endless putdowns for being Welsh were the norm and I was taught very little Welsh history in school - and my band's first review in the NME would be considered seriously xenophobic now.



Yes I agree, the extent to which Welsh has been and can still be laughed at is disgraceful. Who could forget Redwood mangling Mae Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau - always replayed as a comedy moment on TV, but actually really insulting. That's why I was defending the language and attempts to protect it above.  

 The point I was trying to make maybe not very well, is that Welsh nationalism is inevitably defined by the relationship with much larger England, and has this deep anxiety about that.


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## mwgdrwg (Jan 27, 2016)

You only need to look at the recent #DespiteBeingTaughtInWelsh thing to see that some people still see being Welsh as some sort of disability (even other Welsh people....that's how fucking opressed we've been).

Gavin Bl 's post above is a load of bollocks too


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## mwgdrwg (Jan 27, 2016)

Oof I have to exit the thread...the blood pressure!


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## Gavin Bl (Jan 27, 2016)

Why? I'm a strong supporter of the language, but not of nationalism.


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## editor (Jan 27, 2016)

Gavin Bl said:


> Yes I agree, the extent to which Welsh has been and can still be laughed at is disgraceful. Who could forget Redwood mangling Mae Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau - always replayed as a comedy moment on TV, but actually really insulting. That's why I was defending the language and attempts to protect it above.
> 
> The point I was trying to make maybe not very well, is that Welsh nationalism is inevitably defined by the relationship with much larger England, and has this deep anxiety about that.


Oh, I don't know. I'd say that it has changed considerably in recent years, and it's now far more positive - it's more about Welsh history and culture than hating the Englischers. There's still the _h8ters_ of course, but there seems to be more of a sense of being Welsh is actually not a bad thing in itself, which was how I was made to feel.


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## planetgeli (Jan 27, 2016)

Gavin Bl said:


> Don't think the snipes about the language are necessary, it makes perfect sense if you grow up within it - but I do agree that Welsh nationalism is marked by a strong fear of inferiority (maybe most nationalisms are - and deal with it by being the opposite) to the English.



Hey I wouldn't characterize what I said as 'sniping' about the Welsh language. I said I was fully supportive and its a cornerstone of your culture. I'm sure it makes perfect sense if you grow up within it. But so does English. And I wouldn't deny that's a bloody hard language to learn either. Thanks for your agreement on the inferiority bit...I also take your (bracketed) point.


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## Iolo (Jan 28, 2016)

What I find marked is that whenever I push an English tory in argument, he tells me I shag sheep, not now and again but again and again and again and again and again.


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## Gavin Bl (Jan 28, 2016)

editor said:


> Oh, I don't know. I'd say that it has changed considerably in recent years, and it's now far more positive - it's more about Welsh history and culture than hating the Englischers. There's still the _h8ters_ of course, but there seems to be more of a sense of being Welsh is actually not a bad thing in itself, which was how I was made to feel.


Agreed, having spent my twenties and thirties in the south east, I've had to deal with, and sometimes ignore, anti-Welsh barbs more often than I care to remember.


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## Gavin Bl (Jan 28, 2016)

Iolo said:


> What I find marked is that whenever I push an English tory in argument, he tells me I shag sheep, not now and again but again and again and again and again and again.


best to remind them that if that's true, they are paying to eat them after we have shagged them.


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