# Being refused annual leave request - advice needed please



## Hellsbells (Mar 7, 2012)

My lovely line manager has told me I can't take 3 days annual leave next month because it's in term time and therefore will be 'problematic'. This is really a load of crap. I work in admin in a college, I don't teach. I'm taking a Friday off and the following Monday and Tuesday - that's it. My job is rarely busy. The phone doesn't really ring more than twice a day. And if it does, there are other people in the office who can easily answer it, and are quite happy to do so.

Anyway - the problem is that I've already booked to go away on the dates I've been refused leave. I've booked hotel and trains. They're also the only dates my friend who I'm going with is free. Plus it's the day after I submit a massive PGCE portfolio so will be well in need of a break.

I emailed my line manager explaining all this - very calmly and reasonably and am now waiting her response. I'm really worried she'll continue being a total cow about it though, and my colleagues (who are on my side), have said that if she does refuse my leave request, and I then call in sick on those days, I'll probably be put on a disciplinary.

Can they do this? What do you think I should do? Help please.

I'm so angry about all of this. I've been working/studying solidly pretty much since September now with no breaks and am in desperate need of a holiday


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## Belushi (Mar 7, 2012)

Yes they can, you could always throw a sicky but that will be really obvious.


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## 5t3IIa (Mar 7, 2012)

Don't do anything today. You must breathe and relax and fight the urge to scream in her stupid selfish face 

Tomorrow you can have a nice sit down and cup of tea with your lovely line manager and explain how important it is, that it's booked and how you'd love it if she reconsidered.

If she doesn't; kill her.


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## Hellsbells (Mar 7, 2012)

Belushi said:


> Yes they can, you could always throw a sicky but that will be really obvious.


 
but how can they prove i wasn't sick. For all they know, i could be, however suspicious it looks


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## Belushi (Mar 7, 2012)

What are the leave regulations at your place? When I worked in education there were times of the academic year when no one could take leave.


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## Belushi (Mar 7, 2012)

Hellsbells said:


> but how can they prove i wasn't sick. For all they know, i could be, however suspicious it looks


 
Well for starters they could ring you when you are meant to be off sick and actually on holiday, or given the circumstances ask you to visit your doctor and get a certificate or to see the comapny medical advisor.


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## Hellsbells (Mar 7, 2012)

Belushi said:


> What are the leave regulations at your place? When I worked in education there were times of the academic year when no one could take leave.


 
I'll check my contract tonight, but like I said, I don't teach - i only do admin work. And all the other administrators seem to take time off during term time, as do the managers. Including my own line manager who is constantly on holiday.


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## porno thieving gypsy (Mar 7, 2012)

Hellsbells said:


> but how can they prove i wasn't sick. For all they know, i could be, however suspicious it looks


They dont need to prove it, they need to have a reasonable belief.


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## tendril (Mar 7, 2012)

Hellsbells said:


> I'll check my contract tonight, but like I said, I don't teach - i only do admin work. And all the other administrators seem to take time off during term time, as do the managers. Including my own line manager who is constantly on holiday.


Spike her tea with a strong, strong laxative so she'll be off the same time as you.


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## stuff_it (Mar 7, 2012)

You left it to late and got refused. These things happen, probably shouldn't have booked hotels and stuff.


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## Belushi (Mar 7, 2012)

Hellsbells said:


> I'll check my contract tonight, but like I said, I don't teach - i only do admin work. And all the other administrators seem to take time off during term time, as do the managers. Including my own line manager who is constantly on holiday.


 
Okay - worst case scenario is that all likely to be seen as being irrelevant. Your HR are liable to say that it's your line managers perogative to decide when staff can take leave, and the fact you booked a holiday without booking leave is your own lookout. 

Hopefully given the fact that you have booked time off your Manager will let you take the leave, though I suspect you'd have to put up with an ear bashing as well.


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## porno thieving gypsy (Mar 7, 2012)

We sacked someone in a similar fashion last year for this. They asked for a week off to go on holiday in April, but it was declined becuase it was a very busy period.  They said they had already booked the holiday but it was declined so they pulled a sickie. They were then sacked when they got back


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## Hellsbells (Mar 7, 2012)

porno thieving gypsy said:


> We sacked someone in a similar fashion last year for this. They asked for a week off to go on holiday in April, but it was declined becuase it was a very busy period. They said they had already booked the holiday but it was declined so they pulled a sickie. They were then sacked when they got back


 
Bloody hell  I don't think my work would be that evil. I've been here nearly 6 years. I wouldn't have taken time off if it really was a busy period - but it's not - for me anyway. It's hardly like the place will fall apart if i'm not there for 3 days.


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## quimcunx (Mar 7, 2012)

It was a bit silly to book something without booking the time off first. 

If it's not causing a problem for your workmates it's a bit fucking miserly to say no though.


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## 5t3IIa (Mar 7, 2012)

Am I on ignore? 

I mean, I might be.


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## Hellsbells (Mar 7, 2012)

5t3IIa said:


> Am I on ignore?
> 
> I mean, I might be.


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## 5t3IIa (Mar 7, 2012)

Hellsbells said:


>


 
Post #3


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## Puddy_Tat (Mar 7, 2012)

(subject to the disclaimer that i'm not a lawyer or anything like that)

I don't think that there's a general legal duty for an employer to grant annual leave whenever people want it.  In some jobs, some / all annual leave is handed out on a rota basis, or during scheduled closure periods.  It is also by no means uncommon to have a formal / informal rule that "no more than X people in the department may be on holiday at the same time"

It would however depend

a) what your contract of employment - and any policy documents that could be held to constitute part of your contract - says

b) on established 'custom and practice' in your workplace

If, as you say, other people in similar jobs get granted leave whenever they like and you're not, then it certainly raises questions.  Although proving this may be difficult.

I'd also agree that reporting sick on days you've requested and been refused holiday does tend to attract a certain amount of suspicion, and as others have said, you could find yourself on a disciplinary charge.


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## bi0boy (Mar 7, 2012)

Did your grandma, who you were very close to, die yet? You of course fucked off your booked holiday to attend work but a family crisis arising at the same time must surely be dealt with differently.

Or maybe you were sick on Friday, and then, fully recovered, you went away to Tamanrasset - just for the weekend mind - but the only flight back was delayed for three days.


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## quimcunx (Mar 7, 2012)

Belushi said:


> Well for starters they could ring you when you are meant to be off sick and actually on holiday, or given the circumstances ask you to visit your doctor and get a certificate or to see the comapny medical advisor.


 
If they are adamant without good reason get your doctor to sign you off with stress/exhaustion for the week.


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## Hellsbells (Mar 7, 2012)

quimcunx said:


> If they are adamant without good reason get your doctor to sign you off with stress/exhaustion for the week.


 
well to be honest, if they do refuse my leave, i'm very likely to have some kind of stress/exhausation meltdown. The past few weeks, I've constantly been on the verge of crying/screaming/wanting to kill someone. Which is very unlike me.


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## Pingu (Mar 7, 2012)

stuff_it said:


> You left it to late and got refused. These things happen, probably shouldn't have booked hotels and stuff.


 

this tbh

do it the other way round. get the leave then book somewhere

but also these



quimcunx said:


> It was a bit silly to book something without booking the time off first.
> 
> If it's not causing a problem for your workmates it's a bit fucking miserly to say no though.


 


Puddy_Tat said:


> (subject to the disclaimer that i'm not a lawyer or anything like that)
> 
> I don't think that there's a general legal duty for an employer to grant annual leave whenever people want it. In some jobs, some / all annual leave is handed out on a rota basis, or during scheduled closure periods. It is also by no means uncommon to have a formal / informal rule that "no more than X people in the department may be on holiday at the same time"
> 
> ...


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## Hellsbells (Mar 7, 2012)

5t3IIa said:


> Don't do anything today. You must breathe and relax and fight the urge to scream in her stupid selfish face
> 
> Tomorrow you can have a nice sit down and cup of tea with your lovely line manager and explain how important it is, that it's booked and how you'd love it if she reconsidered.
> 
> If she doesn't; kill her.


 
I already emailed her. It was a very polite, calm, appologetic email. Think i did it all right. Accepted I'm in the wrong & shouldn't have booked without consulting her first. Explained that my colleagues are happy to cover for me & don't have a problem with it. Listed the reasons why it wasn't possible for me to book a holiday at any other time. Will talk to her in person tomorow. We don't really do nice cups of tea together. I'm just hoping I can appeal to her better nature & hope that somewhere inside her is a decent, understanding person (with a heart)....


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## 5t3IIa (Mar 7, 2012)

Hellsbells said:


> I already emailed her. It was a very polite, calm, appologetic email. Think i did it all right. Accepted I'm in the wrong & shouldn't have booked without consulting her first. Explained that my colleagues are happy to cover for me & don't have a problem with it. Listed the reasons why it wasn't possible for me to book a holiday at any other time. Will talk to her in person tomorow. We don't really do nice cups of tea together. I'm just hoping I can appeal to her better nature & hope that somewhere inside her is a decent, understanding person (with a heart)....


 
Hope so!


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## Wilf (Mar 7, 2012)

I work in a university and admin staff have to go through the usual processes for getting leave i.e. check with line manager.  Some groups, say admissions/enrolment, might not get it in September; exams staff in June, July etc.  However, this isn't a busy period in terms of most admin processes, so there's no obvious reasons for turning you down. However, if you want to get the time, best way is appealing to your manger's, ahem, better nature and saying your colleagues will cover + that you'll lose money if you cancel now.  My natural inclinations are to take them on (as a union rep), but I have a feeling that could be counter productive on this on.


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## Wilf (Mar 7, 2012)

Wilf said:


> I work in a university and admin staff have to go through the usual processes for getting leave i.e. check with line manager. Some groups, say admissions/enrolment, might not get it in September; exams staff in June, July etc. However, this isn't a busy period in terms of most admin processes, so there's no obvious reasons for turning you down. However, if you want to get the time, best way is appealing to your manger's, ahem, better nature and saying your colleagues will cover + that you'll lose money if you cancel now. My natural inclinations are to take them on (as a union rep), but I have a feeling that could be counter productive on this on.


 
edit: you've beaten me to it yourself...


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## equationgirl (Mar 7, 2012)

My manager just refused me a whole week's leave -  managed to persuade her I could have two of the days off so I get a long weekend (it's my birthday). Her reasoning was she's going away and as the next senior person in the team I have to be in work.

I'm not that bothered to be honest - more mildly surprised as she's never bothered about this sort of thing before.


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## 8115 (Mar 7, 2012)

Are you in a union?  Or find out the grievance hierarchy, and who you need to talk to if you have issues with your line manager.  No leave in term time is a fairly big ask, without any other good reason.


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## sleaterkinney (Mar 7, 2012)

stuff_it said:


> You left it to late and got refused. These things happen, probably shouldn't have booked hotels and stuff.


How is it too late?. It's next month and it's an admin job....


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## stuff_it (Mar 7, 2012)

sleaterkinney said:


> How is it too late?. It's next month and it's an admin job....


A month before is cutting it a bit fine in most workplaces, even for admin staff.


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## sleaterkinney (Mar 7, 2012)

stuff_it said:


> A month before is cutting it a bit fine in most workplaces, even for admin staff.


Not really, not for three days.


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## equationgirl (Mar 8, 2012)

Check the holiday policy in place Hellsbells. If she's not followed it, you may be able to take things further if you want to.


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## Miss Caphat (Mar 8, 2012)

sleaterkinney said:


> Not really, not for three days.


 
this ^ what if you were actually sick? or had a close relative die? how much notice would they require for that ffs? a month should be plenty of time.


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## stuff_it (Mar 8, 2012)

Miss Caphat said:
			
		

> this ^ what if you were actually sick? or had a close relative die? how much notice would they require for that ffs? a month should be plenty of time.



Most places prefer a bit more notice. I certainly wouldn't expect to definitely get leave even of a few days to the point of booking hotels at only a months notice.


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## porno thieving gypsy (Mar 8, 2012)

The Working Time Regulations state that an employee must give twice as much notice as the period of leave they wish to take, for example, an employee who wishes to take one week’s annual leave must give two week’s notice.


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## Crispy (Mar 8, 2012)

porno thieving gypsy said:


> The Working Time Regulations state that an employee must give twice as much notice as the period of leave they wish to take, for example, an employee who wishes to take one week’s annual leave must give two week’s notice.


And the employer still has the right to refuse it and ask that you take it at specific times.


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## Teaboy (Mar 8, 2012)

Regulations don't mean much job to job. I've worked in jobs when they ask you to get your whole year's holidays planned and in the book by the end of January, small businesses sometimes need to plan around it. At the moment I could probably take holiday with just 24 hours notice because of the nature of my role. It really depends on the job.

One month does seem a bit short notice to me and obviously booking tickets before it was agreed was a bit of an error, but still it seems harsh and arsey to deny somemone in the OP's position a few days of holiday.


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## trashpony (Mar 8, 2012)

If there is nothing in your contract about holidays during term time and she and your other colleagues take time off, then I would speak to HR. Are you sure she wasn't planning to take the time off herself?


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## Hellsbells (Mar 8, 2012)

I haven't been in work today as I don't work thursdays but am just picking up work emails and have a response from line manager. Don't really know if she's saying no outright, or possibly yes. She wants to discuss in person tomorow and by the tone of her email, she's clearly very pissed off with me. Her closing sentence is  - Naturally I want to take into consideration money and arrangements you have already put in place but for future reference please be aware that leave is not authorised until it is signed and agreed.

I'm so worried about meeting with her tomorow & the way i feel right now think i may just burst into tears.


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## Belushi (Mar 8, 2012)

It sounds as if she is going to say yes but is cross as she feels you've forced her hand.


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## trashpony (Mar 8, 2012)

Belushi said:


> It sounds as if she is going to say yes but is cross as she feels you've forced her hand.


Yeah it sounds like that to me too. I think you're just going to get a bit of a scolding but she'll let you have the time off


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## Hellsbells (Mar 8, 2012)

do you think? I'm so upset I can't actually read it properly


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## spring-peeper (Mar 8, 2012)

same here

*fingers crossed for hellsbells*


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## ChrisFilter (Mar 8, 2012)

Christ. In what world do people think being so officious is going to motivate the team to achieve more? Treating people like crap is never a good strategy. You have my sympathy. You should have waited for approval, sure, but how long did she take to get back to you?


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## Kidda (Mar 8, 2012)

Hellsbells said:


> do you think? I'm so upset I can't actually read it properly


Ah she's going to say yes she just wants to stamp her feet first. Let her do it and get it out of her system. Be all apologetic and seem sincere. Then forget it and go on holiday.


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## Hellsbells (Mar 9, 2012)

This is doing my head in. Sat here at work now waiting/dreading for manager to come in (we work in different offices) No idea when she's coming. I was actually physically sick last night and feel quite ill now  - which I know sounds riddiculous - but I hate confrontations and I hate waiting. All this for 3 days holiday for gods sake


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## StoneRoad (Mar 9, 2012)

Good Luck, HB.

In the circumstances you've explained IMO your boss is being a _little_ unreasonable.
A month's notice for three days even during term at a quiet time......what would have been the result if you had wanted two/three weeks for a trip to the states or something.....
If she still says no, then visit the doc for stress a few days before you would have been away.......


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## 5t3IIa (Mar 9, 2012)

Hellsbells said:


> This is doing my head in. Sat here at work now waiting/dreading for manager to come in (we work in different offices) No idea when she's coming. I was actually physically sick last night and feel quite ill now - which I know sounds riddiculous - but I hate confrontations and I hate waiting. All this for 3 days holiday for gods sake


 
Please try to chill  Make a little list of the Good Reasons why you _need _this leave. You mentioned them up-thread - you need a break after your mad busyness! Weave in being stressed so neglecting to arrange this properly and, actually, a little cry might just tip it in your favour.

Good luck!


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## Hellsbells (Mar 9, 2012)

she doesn't consider it 'quiet time' though, that's the problem. I mean, as she doesn't actually work in the same office as me, she really has no idea what my job is like. I normally finish the week's work in a day, especially at this time of year. But she has it in her head - start of term - must be frantically busy.


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## Hellsbells (Mar 9, 2012)

Ok, everything's fine. I can breathe now 
Think in my head I had turned my manager into a total monster. She was actually incredibely nice about it all & only gave me a gentle telling off & said of course she wouldnt expect me to give up my holiday.
Has slightly restored my faith in human nature!


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## miss direct (Mar 9, 2012)

Lol what a storm in a teacup.


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## trashpony (Mar 9, 2012)

Perhaps you should take up yoga? 

Glad it's all sorted


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## 5t3IIa (Mar 9, 2012)

Someone is a big silly :F


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## Schmetterling (Mar 12, 2012)

Hellsbells said:


> Ok, everything's fine. I can breathe now
> Think in my head I had turned my manager into a total monster. She was actually incredibely nice about it all & only gave me a gentle telling off & said of course she wouldnt expect me to give up my holiday.
> Has slightly restored my faith in human nature!


 Or she has been reading this thread!


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## Winot (Mar 12, 2012)

Hellsbells said:


> I normally finish the week's work in a day, especially at this time of year.


 
 have I read this right?  You can't mean that you are twiddling your thumbs Tue-Fri surely?  If so, I'd be more worried about redundancy than holiday...


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## Hellsbells (Mar 12, 2012)

Winot said:


> have I read this right? You can't mean that you are twiddling your thumbs Tue-Fri surely? If so, I'd be more worried about redundancy than holiday...


 
I'm certainly not twiddling my thumbs. I'm studying practically full time. But yeah, in terms of 'work' work, I have very little to do. It's been like that in every job I've ever had. I think I'm just very quick, to be honest. Line manager thinks I'm rushed off my feet though. I always seem frantically busy whenever she comes in the office


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## tendril (Mar 12, 2012)

Hellsbells said:


> I'm certainly not twiddling my thumbs. I'm studying practically full time. But yeah, in terms of 'work' work, I have very little to do. It's been like that in every job I've ever had. I think I'm just very quick, to be honest. Line manager thinks I'm rushed off my feet though. I always seem frantically busy whenever she comes in the office


I employ the old RAF tactic of holding a piece of paper and walking with a purpose. I manage to get absolutely no work done using this technique some days.


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## Schmetterling (Mar 12, 2012)

Hellsbells said:


> I'm certainly not twiddling my thumbs. I'm studying practically full time. But yeah, in terms of 'work' work, I have very little to do. It's been like that in every job I've ever had. I think I'm just very quick, to be honest. Line manager thinks I'm rushed off my feet though. I always seem frantically busy whenever she comes in the office


 


tendril said:


> I employ the old RAF tactic of holding a piece of paper and walking with a purpose. I manage to get absolutely no work done using this technique some days.


 ... I shall contribute to this when posting from home ..... sshhhhhhh


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## Sweet FA (Mar 12, 2012)

8115 said:


> Are you in a union? Or find out the grievance hierarchy, and who you need to talk to if you have issues with your line manager. No leave in term time is a fairly big ask, without any other good reason.


Her union? Are you mad? Did you not read the op? This is someone who's booked a holiday before asking for leave for god's sake! And the fascist bastards might say no! She needs to get herself down the European Court of Human Rights pronto. 














Glad you got it sorted Hellsbells


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## Termite Man (Mar 12, 2012)

tendril said:


> I employ the old RAF tactic of holding a piece of paper and walking with a purpose. I manage to get absolutely no work done using this technique some days.


 
thats my tactic as well. Anf now everyone knows it. You've ruined it for me now


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