# Missing 12 year old Tia Sharp



## zenie (Aug 9, 2012)

6 days now 

Stepdad has been taken in for questioning as he was the last person to see her.

Let's hope she shows up on the Croydon CCTV.


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## yardbird (Aug 9, 2012)

Why are the locals having a go at the police for not searching and then doing it themselves.
No help at all.
Search if you're asked, but this ludicrous 'the police ain't doing enough' when you have no idea at all what the police are doing.
 Having said that, the expression "grandmother's boyfriend" has a strange ring to it.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 9, 2012)

this isn't going to be another hide and seek championship entry is it?


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## weltweit (Aug 9, 2012)

I was pondering whether to start a thead on this, glad you did OP.

It is not looking good, 6 days is a long time for a child to be missing for any genuine reasons.


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## Badgers (Aug 9, 2012)

weltweit said:
			
		

> I was pondering whether to start a thead on this, glad you did OP.
> 
> It is not looking good, 6 days is a long time for a child to be missing for any genuine reasons.



Indeed


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## Numbers (Aug 9, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> this isn't going to be another hide and seek championship entry is it?


Always the idiot Pickman's.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 9, 2012)

Numbers said:


> Always the idiot Pickman's.


you daft twat. could you point me to where you've taken the same line over one m. mccann?


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## 1927 (Aug 9, 2012)

I think this has an inevitability about it, we probably all think the same, its very often family! very sad.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 9, 2012)

1927

Let's hope this is one of the happy times, eh


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## silverfish (Aug 9, 2012)

Normally whoever is doing the pleading to "come home"  on the tellybox


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## Lucy Fur (Aug 9, 2012)

yardbird said:


> Having said that, the expression "grandmother's boyfriend" has a strange ring to it.


 
Not when you consider the Grandmother is only 46.


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## Numbers (Aug 9, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> you daft twat. could you point me to where you've taken the same line over one m. mccann?


No, I couldn't actually, but if you would like to do so I'll have a look and reply accordingly.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 9, 2012)

Numbers said:


> No, I couldn't actually, but if you would like to do so I'll have a look and reply accordingly.


why not? i've better things to do than search your posts; i doubt you have anything more pressing.


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## yardbird (Aug 9, 2012)

Lucy Fur said:


> Not when you consider the Grandmother is only 46.


That's the point.


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## _angel_ (Aug 9, 2012)

yardbird said:


> That's the point.


Seems like a perfectly average age to be a grandma imo.


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## yardbird (Aug 9, 2012)

_angel_ said:


> Seems like a perfectly average age to be a grandma imo.


Fair enough.


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## purenarcotic (Aug 9, 2012)

It's desperately sad.  I don't hold out much hope, I'm afraid, but I very much wish to be proved wrong.


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## 5t3IIa (Aug 9, 2012)

_angel_ said:


> Seems like a perfectly average age to be a grandma imo.


 
I'm not positive it is, you know


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Aug 9, 2012)

_angel_ said:


> Seems like a perfectly average age to be a grandma imo.


 
No it fucking well isn't.


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## weepiper (Aug 9, 2012)

I really hope she turns up but every day that goes past makes it seem less likely


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## weepiper (Aug 9, 2012)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> No it fucking well isn't.


 
It only requires the mum and the grandma to both have had their kid aged 17, it's not that unusual


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Aug 9, 2012)

weepiper said:


> It only requires the mum and the grandma to both have had their kid aged 17, it's not that unusual


 
It may not be unusual, but it is a long way from the average.


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## _angel_ (Aug 9, 2012)

weepiper said:


> It only requires the mum and the grandma to both have had their kid aged 17, it's not that unusual


Normal enough, the only reason people get het up about it is because they might not be married *gasp* whereas in previous generations being married at 16/17 having kids then totally normal.


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## 5t3IIa (Aug 9, 2012)

_angel_ said:


> Normal enough, the only reason people get het up about it is because they might not be married *gasp* whereas in previous generations being married at 16/17 having kids then totally normal.


 
I'm not getting het up, I'm _just sayin' _that 34 is pretty young to be a grandparent!


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## Teaboy (Aug 9, 2012)

_angel_ said:


> Normal enough, the only reason people get het up about it is because they might not be married *gasp* whereas in previous generations being married at 16/17 having kids then totally normal.


 
Is it?

Or is it that a lot of people think 17 year olds a are still children themselves and its a bit young to be having children?

Anyway its not important, I hope she turns up safely although I fear the worse.


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## mentalchik (Aug 9, 2012)

weepiper said:


> It only requires the mum and the grandma to both have had their kid aged 17, it's not that unusual


 
My mum was a granny at 41 !


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Aug 9, 2012)

_angel_ said:


> Normal enough, the only reason people get het up about it is because they might not be married *gasp* whereas in previous generations being married at 16/17 having kids then totally normal.


 
It's not the norm for children to be having children. In previous generations it was the norm to die in your 40's too, wanna keep that tradition alive too?


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## weepiper (Aug 9, 2012)

Teaboy said:


> Is it?
> 
> Or is it that a lot of people think 17 year olds a are still children themselves and its a bit young to be having children?


 
But that's perception isn't it, because society infantilises us these days. Hundred years ago (50 years ago even) 17 was firmly an adult and had been out at work for some years.


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## _angel_ (Aug 9, 2012)

Teaboy said:


> Is it?
> 
> Or is it that a lot of people think 17 year olds a are still children themselves and its a bit young to be having children?


Well no one thought like that when being married at that age for life was fairly normal. So it really is a bit hypocritcal these days when people (not saying you) start hand wringing about teenage mums cos they've always existed.
For me it'd be too young. For my friend at school she was totally ready at 17.


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## mentalchik (Aug 9, 2012)

5t3IIa said:


> I'm not getting het up, I'm _just sayin' _that 34 is pretty young to be a grandparent!


 
34 ?


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## weepiper (Aug 9, 2012)

mentalchik said:


> 34 ?


 
the grandmother's 46, and the grandaughter is 12, so she became a grandmother at 34


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## mentalchik (Aug 9, 2012)

weepiper said:


> But that's perception isn't it, because society infantilises us these days. Hundred years ago (50 years ago even) 17 was firmly an adult and had been out at work for some years.


 
Yup, my mum left school at 14/15 and went out to work........you were expected to be more or less a responsible grown up and people getting married and having kids before they were 20 was very common.......


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## 5t3IIa (Aug 9, 2012)

mentalchik said:


> 34 ?


 
The kid's twelve. 46 - 12 = 34


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## mentalchik (Aug 9, 2012)

weepiper said:


> the grandmother's 46, and the grandaughter is 12, so she became a grandmother at 34


 
ah 

in my defense i feel like poo and my head is full of congestion


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## _angel_ (Aug 9, 2012)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> It's not the norm for children to be having children. In previous generations it was the norm to die in your 40's too, wanna keep that tradition alive too?


Still the case in some places isn't it? 
Not sure it's quite fair to describe 17 as 'children' as weepiper said if you left school and are working. The difference is now there's no jobs for 17 year olds or almost anyone in general.


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## mentalchik (Aug 9, 2012)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> It's not the norm for children to be having children. In previous generations it was the norm to die in your 40's too, wanna keep that tradition alive too?


 
erm how far back are you going ?

my mum is still alive and well ta


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## bi0boy (Aug 9, 2012)

Teaboy said:


> Is it?
> 
> Or is it that a lot of people think 17 year olds a are still children themselves and its a bit young to be having children?
> 
> Anyway its not important, I hope she turns up safely although I fear the worse.


 
It obviously is important, this is Urban...


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Aug 9, 2012)

_angel_ said:


> Still the case in some places isn't it?
> Not sure it's quite fair to describe 17 as 'children' as weepiper said if you left school and are working. The difference is now there's no jobs for 17 year olds or almost anyone in general.


 
18 = adult, 17 = child.

It is the case in some places that it is normal for children to have children. There is a poster campaign on Southwest Trains against this practice.


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## Thora (Aug 9, 2012)

45-55 seems an average age to become a grandparent, but having a 12 year old grandchild at 46 must be a little more unusual I think.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Aug 9, 2012)

mentalchik said:


> erm how far back are you going ?
> 
> my mum is still alive and well ta


 
Glad your mum is well and alive. Going back to the time when it was the norm for children to be born to 16 and 17 year olds, a time way before your mum was born.


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## mentalchik (Aug 9, 2012)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Glad your mum is well and alive. Going back to the time when it was the norm for children to be born to 16 and 17 year olds, a time way before your mum was born.


 
erm no it wasn't....my mum was married at 17 and had me at 18...........it was quite common in the 50's and 60's

eta.  very commom


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## weepiper (Aug 9, 2012)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Glad your mum is well and alive. Going back to the time when it was the norm for children to be born to 16 and 17 year olds, a time way before your mum was born.


 
Jesus Christ you insufferable middle-class knob, it's _still normal now_


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## mentalchik (Aug 9, 2012)

and yes whilst legally you aren't an adult till 18 you are fooling yourself if you think a 17 yr old is a child...................in fact personally i think it's this attitude that you are still a 'child' with no responsibilities up into your 20's that's a cause of a lot of issues today


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## Pickman's model (Aug 9, 2012)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> 18 = adult, 17 = child.
> 
> It is the case in some places that it is normal for children to have children. There is a poster campaign on Southwest Trains against this practice.


so in your opinion there are child soldiers serving in the british army.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 9, 2012)

anyway, if everyone's gone off on this tangent i take it they haven't found her or her corpse.


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## Belushi (Aug 9, 2012)

My Nan was 36 when I was born


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## bi0boy (Aug 9, 2012)

So... are her parents working-class or not?


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## Pickman's model (Aug 9, 2012)

bi0boy said:


> So... are her parents working-class or not?


parents... or mum & step-dad?


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## purenarcotic (Aug 9, 2012)

mentalchik said:


> and yes whilst legally you aren't an adult till 18 you are fooling yourself if you think a 17 yr old is a child...................in fact personally i think it's this attitude that you are still a 'child' with no responsibilities up into your 20's that's a cause of a lot of issues today


 
Do you?  How so?


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## Yetman (Aug 9, 2012)

What does it matter how old her gran is or what age her mother was when she had her?


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## purenarcotic (Aug 9, 2012)

Yetman said:


> What does it matter how old her gran is?


 
It doesn't.  It is quite possibly the least important piece of information given the circumstances.  But this is Urban, we leave no stone unturned.


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## weepiper (Aug 9, 2012)

Yetman said:


> What does it matter how old her gran is or what age her mother was when she had her?


 
because _obviously_ they're a feckless working class family and the probable abduction and murder of their child has been waiting to happen ever since her nan popped her mum out aged 17.


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## Belushi (Aug 9, 2012)

Yetman said:


> What does it matter how old her gran is or what age her mother was when she had her?


 
In order to judge the family.


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## mentalchik (Aug 9, 2012)

purenarcotic said:


> Do you? How so?


 
I'm not for one minute suggesting people should be sent up chimneys or such like but i do think if you are treating people like they have no responsibilities because of their age (it seems to get ever older) then it's no suprise people take no responsibility.......


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## Thora (Aug 9, 2012)

Children are most at risk from stepfathers though aren't they? And stepgrandad isn't a frail old man who couldn't overpower a 12 year old.


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## mentalchik (Aug 9, 2012)

It's one of my mum's massive bug bears that the idea is being promoted that young people can't possibly be good parents.......age doesn't necessarily come into it ime


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## purenarcotic (Aug 9, 2012)

mentalchik said:


> I'm not for one minute suggesting people should be sent up chimneys or such like but i do think if you are treating people like they have no responsibilities because of their age (it seems to get ever older) then it's no suprise people take no responsibility.......


 
Get em back down t'mines.


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## mentalchik (Aug 9, 2012)




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## AverageJoe (Aug 9, 2012)

Someone pointed out to me the other day that most of the press conferences have been held by the Step-grandad and that the police do this so that they can analyse body language etc of the person. If they dont think someone is involved, apparently they dont put them in the chair, so to speak.

Might be balls though, but I can see where they are coming from.


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## mentalchik (Aug 9, 2012)

^ there might be some truth to this


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## killer b (Aug 9, 2012)

I knew as soon as I read her age the thread would descend into this. Some of you need to have a fucking word with yourselves. Pathetic.


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## pinkmonkey (Aug 9, 2012)

AverageJoe said:


> Someone pointed out to me the other day that most of the press conferences have been held by the Step-grandad and that the police do this so that they can analyse body language etc of the person. If they dont think someone is involved, apparently they dont put them in the chair, so to speak.
> 
> Might be balls though, but I can see where they are coming from.


 
Yeah, my bullshit detector was going off when they did this too.  I just thought, 'I wonder'.  It was all so Karen Matthews, the printed t shirts, everything.....


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## Yetman (Aug 9, 2012)

purenarcotic said:


> It doesn't. It is quite possibly the least important piece of information given the circumstances. But this is Urban, we leave no stone unturned.


 


weepiper said:


> because _obviously_ they're a feckless working class family and the probable abduction and murder of their child has been waiting to happen ever since her nan popped her mum out aged 17.


 


Belushi said:


> In order to judge the family.


 
It all makes sense now, cheers.


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## mrs quoad (Aug 9, 2012)

AverageJoe said:


> Someone pointed out to me the other day that most of the press conferences have been held by the Step-grandad and that the police do this so that they can analyse body language etc of the person. If they dont think someone is involved, apparently they dont put them in the chair, so to speak.


"Look, Inspector Bob, we've had the dodgy fucker on for 4 press conferences, in addition to countless informal opportunities to observe him under pressure.

But Cracker is still saying he _still isn't quite sure _about the way he touches his face, so we should sideline the direct family again and pass him the footage ASAP_._"

I'm kinda unconvinced.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 9, 2012)

AverageJoe said:


> Someone pointed out to me the other day that most of the press conferences have been held by the Step-grandad and that the police do this so that they can analyse body language etc of the person. If they dont think someone is involved, apparently they dont put them in the chair, so to speak.
> 
> Might be balls though, but I can see where they are coming from.


that's a top idea, to let everyone know who the police suspect.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 9, 2012)

pinkmonkey said:


> Yeah, my bullshit detector was going off when they did this too. I just thought, 'I wonder'. It was all so Karen Matthews, the printed t shirts, everything.....


you don't think these campaigns spring from nothing, do you? there's months of planning behind them.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 9, 2012)

killer b said:


> I knew as soon as I read her age the thread would descend into this. Some of you need to have a fucking word with yourselves. Pathetic.


i wouldn't trust some of them to have a fucking word with themselves, if their words would be as shite as their posts.


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## paulhackett (Aug 9, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> this isn't going to be another hide and seek championship entry is it?


 
If it is a re-run of the Matthews case, then I'm expecting variations on the 'Not the _Sharp_-est tool in the box' type headlines.


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## keybored (Aug 9, 2012)

AverageJoe said:


> Someone pointed out to me the other day that most of the press conferences have been held by the Step-grandad and that the police do this so that they can analyse body language etc of the person. If they dont think someone is involved, apparently they dont put them in the chair, so to speak.
> 
> Might be balls though, but I can see where they are coming from.



It's pretty common.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7288543.stm


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## DotCommunist (Aug 9, 2012)

paulhackett said:


> If it is a re-run of the Matthews case, then I'm expecting variations on the 'Not the _Sharp_-est tool in the box' type headlines.


 

if it is expect another right wing press blast at the feckless underclass and wail columnists speculating on the viability of sterilising the poor.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Aug 9, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> so in your opinion there are child soldiers serving in the british army.


 
Yes. Not allowed on the front line until they're adults though.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Aug 9, 2012)

weepiper said:


> Jesus Christ you insufferable middle-class knob, it's _still normal now_


 
Do you understand what the word NORMAL means?


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## Pickman's model (Aug 9, 2012)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Do you understand what the word NORMAL means?


*nor·mal/ˈnôrməl/*

Adjective: 
Conforming to a standard; usual, typical, or expected.

Noun: 
The usual, average, or typical state or condition.

Synonyms: 
_adjective_.  regular - standard - ordinary - common - usual
_noun_.  normality - normalcy - perpendicular


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Aug 9, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> *nor·mal/ˈnôrməl/*
> 
> Adjective:
> Conforming to a standard; usual, typical, or expected.
> ...


 
Good.

Now, do any of the above fit the notion of 16 and 17 year olds having children in Britain today?


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## keybored (Aug 9, 2012)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Good.
> 
> Now, do any of the above fit the notion of 16 and 17 year olds having children in Britain today?



Yes. 
Regular.
Usual.
Ordinary.
Common.

Not average though.


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## zenie (Aug 9, 2012)

Wish people would stop banging on about the age of the parents/grandparents.


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## weepiper (Aug 9, 2012)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Good.
> 
> Now, do any of the above fit the notion of 16 and 17 year olds having children in Britain today?


 
Yes. I was watching a programme about midwifery students last night and two of the women shown giving birth were 17. Ask kalidarkone, bet you she's delivered plenty of women under twenty


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## RaverDrew (Aug 9, 2012)

New Addington is a shithole, anyone with a right mind would go missing from there if they had the choice. Hopefully the young girl has just run away to escape the place.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Aug 9, 2012)

weepiper said:


> Yes. I was watching a programme about midwifery students last night and two of the women shown giving birth were 17. Ask kalidarkone, bet you she's delivered plenty of women under twenty


 




Of fucking course 17 years olds and younger give birth.

You seem to be saying that is the NORM, when clearly it is not.


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## weepiper (Aug 9, 2012)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Of fucking course 17 years olds and younger give birth.
> 
> You seem to be saying that is the NORM, when clearly it is not.


 
No I didn't. I never said 'it is the norm'. You're pissing about with words now, go back and read what I actually posted.


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## kalidarkone (Aug 9, 2012)

Also depends on the local enviroment-where I was on placement it was definately average practice for that area. The place I was at before it would be considered unusual but what was average there was women over 40 having first babies.


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## hegley (Aug 9, 2012)

mentalchik said:


> erm no it wasn't....my mum was married at 17 and had me at 18...........it was quite common in the 50's and 60's
> 
> eta. very commom


The average age for a woman to have a first child hasn't dropped below 23 for at least the last 80 years ...


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## weepiper (Aug 9, 2012)

hegley said:


> The average age for a woman to have a first child hasn't dropped below 23 for at least the last 80 years ...


 
Consider that phrase. _Average._


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## Pickman's model (Aug 9, 2012)

hegley said:


> The average age for a woman to have a first child hasn't dropped below 23 for at least the last 80 years ...


you do know that when there's an average like that, women have their first child when older than 23 and indeed younger than 23. given that a lot of women have first children in their 30s, and no women have children when they're 10, this would suggest that a lot of children are born to women in their teens. wouldn't it? incidentally: your average, is it mean, mode or median?


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## Pickman's model (Aug 9, 2012)

hegley said:


> The average age for a woman to have a first child hasn't dropped below 23 for at least the last 80 years ...


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## QueenOfGoths (Aug 9, 2012)

Let's just hope the poor girl is found quickly or, in the worse scenario, there is a quick resolution for her families sake.

And as for being a granny at 46, well, I am 45 and am sadly neither a Mum nor a Granny but I really wish I was!


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## hegley (Aug 9, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> you do know that when there's an average like that, women have their first child when older than 23 and indeed younger than 23. given that a lot of women have first children in their 30s, and no women have children when they're 10, this would suggest that a lot of children are born to women in their teens. wouldn't it? incidentally: your average, is it mean, mode or median?


It's the mean; but births to under 20s still only account for <10% (in most years going back to 1938) ... it's not as common as people seem to be suggesting on this thread (in recent history).


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## Pickman's model (Aug 9, 2012)

hegley said:


> It's the mean; but births to under 20s still only account for <10% (in most years going back to 1938) ... it's not as common as people seem to be suggesting on this thread (in recent history).


source pls


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## hegley (Aug 9, 2012)

ONS.


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## Santino (Aug 9, 2012)

mentalchik said:


> I'm not for one minute suggesting people should be sent up chimneys or such like but i do think if you are treating people like they have no responsibilities because of their age (it seems to get ever older) then it's no suprise people take no responsibility.......


Which of society's problems are caused by people taking no responsibility?


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Aug 9, 2012)

weepiper said:


> No I didn't. I never said 'it is the norm'. You're pissing about with words now, go back and read what I actually posted.


 
How about you go back and do some reading. I said, twice, that 17 is not the average age to bear a child in the UK. A statement that caused you to come wading in. It still stands, 17 is not the average age to have a child here.


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## zenie (Aug 9, 2012)

Why does it matter? Let.it.go. There are no winners here.


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## weepiper (Aug 9, 2012)

Oh fuck this, I'm off to do something where I can get the stench of judgement out of my nostrils


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## Yetman (Aug 9, 2012)

You's still going on about the fucking age of giving birth and shit?! Jesus wept


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## weltweit (Aug 9, 2012)

Tia is a missing 12 year old girl, it can have no bearing on whether she is in trouble or not, the age at which her mother and grandmother had their first child.


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## bi0boy (Aug 9, 2012)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> How about you go back and do some reading. I said, twice, that 17 is not the average age to bear a child in the UK. A statement that caused you to come wading in. It still stands, 17 is not the average age to have a child here.


 
You said it's not normal. It's perfectly normal, although not the average. But how many people have a child at the average age?


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Aug 9, 2012)

weepiper said:


> Oh fuck this, I'm off to do something where I can get the stench of judgement out of my nostrils


 
Seems like you're the one making unfounded judgements here.

Anyway, the filth that investigated Shannon Matthews are now helping with this case


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## The Octagon (Aug 9, 2012)

Nobody's stupid enough to try a Karen Matthews now surely?

Although sadly that's a 'best case' scenario right now.


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## kittyP (Aug 9, 2012)

The Octagon said:


> Nobody's stupid enough to try a Karen Matthews now surely?
> 
> Although sadly that's a 'best case' scenario right now.


 
This is sadly possibly true 

Hope she turns up ok.


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## Mephitic (Aug 9, 2012)

kittyP said:


> Hope she turns up ok.


 

Me too


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## hammerntongues (Aug 9, 2012)

I am sure we all hope she turns up safe and well but  who , honestly , didn`t register some surprise , unfounded or not ,when the press started talking of her grandmother  having a boyfriend , and equally , who , even for a fleeting moment thought that he must be a suspect ? We are fed this bullshit over and over so that we often react in ways we we regret when we have time to think it through .


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 9, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> so in your opinion there are child soldiers serving in the british army.


 
TBF, that's actually always been the case.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 9, 2012)

That's no reason tbf


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## yardbird (Aug 9, 2012)

Some points which may not be relevant but anyway -
Wtf is it with the instant 'missing girl' T-shirts.
Gran was not at home with Tia as she originally said, but working as a carer at the time.
Gran got busted for dealing crack - 2years 10 months.


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 9, 2012)

mentalchik said:


> and yes whilst legally you aren't an adult till 18 you are fooling yourself if you think a 17 yr old is a child...................in fact personally i think it's this attitude that you are still a 'child' with no responsibilities up into your 20's that's a cause of a lot of issues today


 
It's a bit of a curate's egg, responsibility.
For example, we enforce a disgustingly low age of criminal responsibility (10) on children, but we don't allow them the "burdens" of adulthood/majority until they're 18. There's a fair bit of hypocrisy in the way children are addressed by society and the state, but I'd say the attribution of blame lies about 65% on the state, most especially on those that govern us, who send out the most ridiculous mixed messages all the bloody time.


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## kalidarkone (Aug 9, 2012)

hammerntongues said:


> I am sure we all hope she turns up safe and well but who , honestly , didn`t register some surprise , unfounded or not ,when the press started talking of her grandmother having a boyfriend , and equally , who , even for a fleeting moment thought that he must be a suspect ? We are fed this bullshit over and over so that we often react in ways we we regret when we have time to think it through .


 
So fucking narrow minded! My ma is 73 and is a grandma of an 18 year old and guess what? She has a fella -he is a chelsea pensioner mind so probably above all suspicion in the same circumstances


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## kalidarkone (Aug 9, 2012)

I hope I have a boyfriend when I'm a granny. Or by then.....


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 9, 2012)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Of fucking course 17 years olds and younger give birth.
> 
> You seem to be saying that is the NORM, when clearly it is not.


 
Nah, she said it's normal.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 9, 2012)

RaverDrew said:


> New Addington is a shithole, anyone with a right mind would go missing from there if they had the choice. Hopefully the young girl has just run away to escape the place.


 
New Addington is a cling-on on the claggy arse that is Croydon.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 9, 2012)

kalidarkone said:


> I hope I have a boyfriend when I'm a granny. Or by then.....


 
Sorry, didn't mean to laugh, but .


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 9, 2012)

hegley said:


> The average age for a woman to have a first child hasn't dropped below 23 for at least the last 80 years ...


 
And there's a fascinating reason that covers most of the last 60 years, which is that while some w/c teens still have kids "young", some middle class women are having them later, balancing out each other as outliers, and effectively not weighing onto the "average" (whichever formulation of average is being used here).


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 9, 2012)

hegley said:


> It's the mean; but births to under 20s still only account for <10% (in most years going back to 1938) ... it's not as common as people seem to be suggesting on this thread (in recent history).


 
I'm not sure anyone has suggested that it's common, just that having kids at 17 is normal.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 9, 2012)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> How about you go back and do some reading. I said, twice, that 17 is not the average age to bear a child in the UK. A statement that caused you to come wading in. It still stands, 17 is not the average age to have a child here.


 
No-one said "average", *you* said "norm", and weeps said "normal". Developmentally, psychologically and physiologically it *is* perfectly NORMAL to have a child at 17.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 9, 2012)

weltweit said:


> Tia is a missing 12 year old girl, it can have no bearing on whether she is in trouble or not, the age at which her mother and grandmother had their first child.


 
Of course it has no bearing, but it's a piece of information that the media expect to inform the way people view this case, so it becomes an issue related to the way people are judged on certain life-directions and life-choices.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Aug 9, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> No-one said "average", *you* said "norm", and weeps said "normal". Developmentally, psychologically and physiologically it *is* perfectly NORMAL to have a child at 17.


 




			
				Angel said:
			
		

> Seems like a perfectly average age to be a grandma imo


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 9, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> That's no reason tbf


 
I agree, it's no reason at all. Personally, I'm in favour of a rule whereby you have to actually be 18 before you can see active service, *not* "nearly 18", or "he'll be 18 by the first time he gets shot at".


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 9, 2012)

Wow, one poster.
There was me expecting you'd be able to produce at least, say, 2 or 3 examples for acting like a tart with dirty knickers.


----------



## rioted (Aug 9, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> No-one said "average", *you* said "norm", and weeps said "normal". Developmentally, psychologically and physiologically it *is* perfectly NORMAL to have a child at 17.


As it is at 16. Or at 15 or at any age post puberty - that's what its designed for.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Aug 9, 2012)

Violent Panda said:


> Wow, one poster.
> There was me expecting you'd be able to produce at least, say, 2 or 3 examples for acting like a tart with dirty knickers.


 
No just the one. The same post that I replied to stating that 34 is nowhere near the average age to become a grandmother, bringing out the all too predictable response from those rushing to judge on the misguided assumption that there is some hidden anti-young-mum agenda.


----------



## weltweit (Aug 9, 2012)

So, they trawl the CCTV, search the local woods, interview the boyfriend. If that does not come up with clues, what next?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 9, 2012)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> No just the one. The same post that I replied to stating that 34 is nowhere near the average age to become a grandmother, bringing out the all too predictable response from those rushing to judge on the misguided assumption that there is some hidden anti-young-mum agenda.


 
I didn't assume you were being anti-young mum, I thought you were being a pedantic arse.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 9, 2012)

weltweit said:


> So, they trawl the CCTV, search the local woods, interview the boyfriend. If that does not come up with clues, what next?


 
Search local rivers and canals, railway embankments (loads) - basically anywhere a kid could hide or a body could be hidden.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Aug 9, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> I didn't assume you were being anti-young mum, I thought you were being a pedantic arse.


 
I wasn't suggesting that you were one of the assumers. And yes, I was being.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Aug 9, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Search local rivers and canals, railway embankments (loads) - basically anywhere a kid could hide or a body could be hidden.


 
Under the bed.


----------



## kittyP (Aug 9, 2012)

Can we just all agree that this is a very emotionally loaded subject, regardless on you stance, and that the word "normal" is subjective, and get on with hoping she is ok? 

Probably not huh :shrug:


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 9, 2012)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Under the bed.


 
Hmmm, I keep forgetting that one.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 9, 2012)

kittyP said:


> Can we just all agree that this is a very emotionally loaded subject, regardless on you stance, and that the word "normal" is subjective, and get on with hoping she is ok?
> 
> Probably not huh :shrug:


 
I'm really hoping she gets spotted somewhere alive and well, or even that she's found to have been kidnapped or whatever, but is recovered alive. Trauma can be overcome. Death can't.


----------



## zenie (Aug 9, 2012)

There are lots of young runaways, but nothing's been shown on CCTV which makes this pretty chilling.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Aug 9, 2012)

zenie said:


> There are lots of young runaways, but nothing's been shown on CCTV which makes this pretty chilling.


 
Reminds me of Milly Dowler, disappeared from Walton-on-Thames on a Thursday, by Saturday there were posters all over London asking for help, like the parents just _knew_ that she hadn't just run away 

Hope this has a better ending.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 9, 2012)

zenie said:


> There are lots of young runaways, but nothing's been shown on CCTV which makes this pretty chilling.


 
Indeed and I would imagine a big factor in why the inquiry is being focused closer to home.


----------



## mack (Aug 9, 2012)

It surely can't take six days for the Police to sift through an afternoons worth of 1 tram stops CCTV.


----------



## claphamboy (Aug 9, 2012)

What raises my eyebrow is that (a) she left home without the mobile phone, when kids seem to be so attached to mobiles, and (b) without her oyster card, when she was supposed to be intending to use the bus and/or tram.


----------



## weltweit (Aug 9, 2012)

claphamboy said:


> What raises my eyebrow is that (a) she left home without the mobile phone, when kids seem to be so attached to mobiles, and (b) without her oyster card, when she was supposed to be intending to use the bus and/or tram.


Yes, I wondered about that, but what could it mean?


----------



## killer b (Aug 9, 2012)

weltweit said:


> Yes, I wondered about that, but what could it mean?


I'm not sure. Perhaps you could speculate endlessly about it on this thread?


----------



## killer b (Aug 9, 2012)

and pointlessly. 

And tastelessly.


----------



## claphamboy (Aug 9, 2012)

weltweit said:


> Yes, I wondered about that, but what could it mean?


 
Who knows, it's one for the police to work out, but it does seem very odd to me.


----------



## story (Aug 9, 2012)

mack said:


> It surely can't take six days for the Police to sift through an afternoons worth of 1 tram stops CCTV.


 

It's 800 hours of CCTV, according to the news on the the radio this morning.


----------



## AverageJoe (Aug 9, 2012)

yardbird said:


> Some points which may not be relevant but anyway -
> Wtf is it with the instant 'missing girl' T-shirts.
> Gran was not at home with Tia as she originally said, but working as a carer at the time.
> Gran got busted for dealing crack - 2years 10 months.


 
Also, Grans boyfriend did time for possession of a machete and also did 3 years in 2003 for dealing crack. His previous girlfriend was actually Tias mother, so he moved on from the mother to the grandmother.

Now, its been stressed that he is being interviewed as a witness, not as a suspect, but if I was OB (and I'm not), I'd probably be looking at those two as prime suspects in the light that they dont think she actually got on a bus/tram, didnt have her Oyster, didnt take her phone and that their stories so far arent colluding.

*shrugs*

(ps - I wouldnt have thought that Tshirts and posters take that long to make these days. I think paying attention to that is a bit of a red herring)


----------



## Badgers (Aug 9, 2012)

Bahnhof Strasse said:
			
		

> Reminds me of Milly Dowler, disappeared from Walton-on-Thames on a Thursday, by Saturday there were posters all over London asking for help.



Was living in WOT at the time. When Milly disappeared I was in the pub opposite the station with some mates. We lived about 10 doors down and never had a knock at the door or anything.


----------



## xenon (Aug 9, 2012)

mack said:


> It surely can't take six days for the Police to sift through an afternoons worth of 1 tram stops CCTV.




IIRC they had 800 hours worth of CCTV to go through, of which by Tuesday, they'd done 120. They're quite obviously not gonna just look at the nearest camera's footage.


----------



## yardbird (Aug 9, 2012)

AverageJoe said:


> Also, Grans boyfriend did time for possession of a machete and also did 3 years in 2003 for dealing crack. His previous girlfriend was actually Tias mother, so he moved on from the mother to the grandmother.
> 
> Now, its been stressed that he is being interviewed as a witness, not as a suspect, but if I was OB (and I'm not), I'd probably be looking at those two as prime suspects in the light that they dont think she actually got on a bus/tram, didnt have her Oyster, didnt take her phone and that their stories so far arent colluding.
> 
> ...


Blimey! I hadn't looked too deeply although I knew about the machete.
Is he Tia's father? - that would be weird, mind you I find the daughter to mum (gran) move just a little unusual. 
Very worrying that it's lock-ups and wheelie-bins that's being searched and there's  no CCTV yet.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Aug 9, 2012)

Badgers said:


> Was living in WOT at the time. When Milly disappeared I was in the pub opposite the station with some mates. We lived about 10 doors down and never had a knock at the door or anything.


 
The Ashley Park? I'm barred from there for calling the landlord a miserable cunt


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 9, 2012)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> The Ashley Park? I'm barred from there for calling the landlord a miserable cunt



Thus proving you right


----------



## 1%er (Aug 9, 2012)

Is it usual for kids to travel long distances to school in London, I think this girl lives in New Addington but seems to go to Raynes Park high school.

There miles apart


----------



## 1927 (Aug 9, 2012)

If I was OB I'd be looking VERY close to home. Imo if a kid leaves home without their mobile it means they didnt leave of their free will.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Aug 9, 2012)

May the good lord preserve us from keyboard Columbos.


----------



## UrbaneFox (Aug 9, 2012)

silverfish said:


> Normally whoever is doing the pleading to "come home" on the tellybox


 
I suspect that the futility of this has at last been understood by the thickest-skinned and stupidest police officer / tv news persons.


----------



## AnnaKarpik (Aug 9, 2012)

mentalchik said:


> Yup, my mum left school at 14/15 and went out to work........you were expected to be more or less a responsible grown up and people getting married and having kids before they were 20 was very common.......


 
I'd take issue with equating adulthood with going out to work; my mother left school at 14 and started work but she was a long way from any kind of independence. Her wages went to her parents until she was 21.


----------



## Ted Striker (Aug 9, 2012)

Grew up in the village next to Addington, was always quite a funny place, really hope this isn't as bas as everyone's thinking.

Don't buy this 800 hours shite though...Digital footage (not exactly inserting and fast forwarding VHS tapes), you have a 3 hour tops window to look at the catalogued footage before knowing it was a lead or not....If you had a really dim view of the plod you could assert they're not actually fussed about the cctv and just going for the rellies in the hope it's a Matthews-esque piece of drama


----------



## Favelado (Aug 10, 2012)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/aug/09/tia-sharp-police-angered-shannon

Well, it's wrong to speculate on these kind of things but here's the MURDERING SCUMBAG showing us all how guilty he is in an interview.


----------



## _angel_ (Aug 10, 2012)

Is it true he's only about 37 or something? I thought he was about   50 !


----------



## Favelado (Aug 10, 2012)

_angel_ said:


> Is it true he's only about 37 or something? I thought he was about 50 !


 
Dorian Grey effect. His blackened evil soul is ageing his features with every new crime he commits.


----------



## girasol (Aug 10, 2012)

I find it hard to believe that there are no arguments with a 12 year old girl and no problems at all as he says. When he mentions that she doesn't pick up her washing I kind recognise that as a potential bone of contention or argument.

So she didn't take her phone because it was on charge, mmmm. But I think most teens would wait for 15 mins or so for it to charge up, that's what I get my son to do as I don't let him out without his phone. But of course he could be telling the truth. And if he is, what's happened to her? Really hoping they had an argument and she ran away...


----------



## Apathy (Aug 10, 2012)

no point speculating really, im not even sure of the timeline of events myself.  hope the police get on top of this one pronto.  be nice if she is found alive


----------



## Wilf (Aug 10, 2012)

Who knows what has happened but I'd add to the idea that the speculation on here is pretty pointless.  Similarly, in terms of Shannon Matthews the only worthwhile comparison to make is about the community getting involved.  Handing out leaflets and keeping the issue visible seems really positive.


----------



## Dan U (Aug 10, 2012)

Wilf said:


> Who knows what has happened but I'd add to the idea that the speculation on here is pretty pointless.  Similarly, in terms of Shannon Matthews the only worthwhile comparison to make is about the community getting involved.  Handing out leaflets and keeping the issue visible seems really positive.



I was driving through croydon and Wallington last night, posters everywhere. Fair play tbh


----------



## UrbaneFox (Aug 10, 2012)

He's definitely as guilty as the man who definitely murdered Joanna Yeates - until it became clear that the crappier papers were hounding an innocent man who had white, flyaway hair. A sure sign of a creep and a murderer if ever there was one.

Vincent Tabak did it.


----------



## yardbird (Aug 10, 2012)

Oh dear. Sort of developments.
BBC say both ends of the pathway to the house has been blocked to keep reporters out and gran has been driven off for a chat


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 10, 2012)

yardbird said:


> Oh dear. Sort of developments.
> BBC say both ends of the pathway to the house has been blocked to keep reporters out and gran has been driven off for a chat


It's always nice to see younger people interacting with their eldrrs


----------



## weltweit (Aug 10, 2012)

yardbird said:


> ... BBC say both ends of the pathway to the house has been blocked to keep reporters out and gran has been driven off for a chat


And the police are going to do a forensic search of her house.


----------



## UrbaneFox (Aug 10, 2012)

Yes, but with police officers and grandparents getting younger and younger these days it was difficult to tell who was who being escorted away, and who was offering their arm.


----------



## Teaboy (Aug 10, 2012)

There is something grimly predictable about all this.


----------



## weltweit (Aug 10, 2012)

Teaboy said:


> There is something grimly predictable about all this.


Isn't there, grim, and after she has now been missing for a week it is hard to have much hope of a good outcome.


----------



## Dan U (Aug 10, 2012)

House has been sealed off for forensic search now apparently.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-19206675


----------



## Plumdaff (Aug 10, 2012)

Dan U said:


> I was driving through croydon and Wallington last night, posters everywhere. Fair play tbh


 
We live in Stockwell, miles away, and by the time we got back from a weekend away on Sunday evening, the area, including the front door of our flats, had loads of posters. Really admirable work from the community, shame about the circumstances.


----------



## weltweit (Aug 10, 2012)

Interview with step grandad here:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...ood-fibres-and-DNA-at-grandmothers-house.html


----------



## shygirl (Aug 10, 2012)

It usually is someone closely related to the victim, but its still wrong to be naming suspects as having done it.  Even if it is very likely.


----------



## Geri (Aug 10, 2012)

_angel_ said:


> Is it true he's only about 37 or something? I thought he was about 50 !


 
I don't think heavy drug use is condusive to youthful good looks.


----------



## porno thieving gypsy (Aug 10, 2012)

lagtbd said:


> We live in Stockwell, miles away, and by the time we got back from a weekend away on Sunday evening, the area, including the front door of our flats, had loads of posters. Really admirable work from the community, shame about the circumstances.


 
Yeah - all over Crystal Palace too - like every other shop.


----------



## UrbaneFox (Aug 10, 2012)

Police have found a body at grandma's address.


----------



## Ranbay (Aug 10, 2012)

just came here to post that, it's on sky news now


----------



## Geri (Aug 10, 2012)

UrbaneFox said:


> Police have found a body at grandma's address.


 
Is that not the first place they would have looked?


----------



## paulhackett (Aug 10, 2012)

And now they're looking for the step Grandad.. saying 'do not approach' if you see him..


----------



## bi0boy (Aug 10, 2012)

.


----------



## spirals (Aug 10, 2012)

Poor little mite


----------



## spanglechick (Aug 10, 2012)

ahh, fucking hell. that poor little girl.

in some ways that's more upsetting than if she'd been snatched off the street. 

having a little cry here.


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 10, 2012)

purenarcotic said:


> Get em back down t'mines.


We'd have to reopen the mines first.


----------



## xenon (Aug 10, 2012)

Geri said:


> Is that not the first place they would have looked?



I guess upon receiving report of a missing child, it's not usually the first thing the Police do, tearing up the kid's family's floorboards. Grim news.  Police looking for the gran's partner. No arrests been made.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-19214964


----------



## bi0boy (Aug 10, 2012)

paulhackett said:


> And now they're looking for the step Grandad.. saying 'do not approach' if you see him..


 
How can they not know where he is


----------



## kalidarkone (Aug 10, 2012)

Shit


----------



## 1927 (Aug 10, 2012)

Frances Lengel said:


> May the good lord preserve us from keyboard Columbos.


 
But i am a bit fucking good at it.

wish i was had been wrong about this, but imho it was so blatantly obvious from the start.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Aug 10, 2012)




----------



## CyberRose (Aug 10, 2012)

bi0boy said:


> How can they not know where he is


Do you know where he is?!


----------



## Geri (Aug 10, 2012)

xenon said:


> I guess upon receiving report of a missing child, it's not usually the first thing the Police do, tearing up the kid's family's floorboards. Grim news.  Police looking for the gran's partner. No arrests been made.
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-19214964


 
Not the first thing, obviously. But she has been missing a week and they have been looking all over. The papers have been hinting all week that she had never left the house, no CCTV, stories not adding up etc. 

Of course it may have been moved in the meantime.


----------



## bi0boy (Aug 10, 2012)

CyberRose said:


> Do you know where he is?!


 
You'd think they might have kept tabs on him?


----------



## kalidarkone (Aug 10, 2012)

Wont be long till he is found-especially now he has been splashed all over national TV. He better just hope the cops find him first.


----------



## Ranbay (Aug 10, 2012)

£20 says he tops himself....


----------



## DJ Squelch (Aug 10, 2012)

He better hope the police catch him before he gets lynched. The police are going to get a lot of shit for not keeping an eye on him, especially if someone else gets harmed.


----------



## CyberRose (Aug 10, 2012)

bi0boy said:


> You'd think they might have kept tabs on him?


Well we don't know what they knew (or had evidence of), as far as we know they only spoke to him cos he was the last person to see her. Even if they all thought he must know more than he's letting on, I'm not sure they can follow him around (human rights and all that) on a hunch?


----------



## paulhackett (Aug 10, 2012)

B0B2oo9 said:


> £20 says he tops himself....


 
Or he's under the bed


----------



## yardbird (Aug 10, 2012)

The dog taken in to check the property was a cadaver dog.


----------



## bi0boy (Aug 10, 2012)

CyberRose said:


> Well we don't know what they knew (or had evidence of), as far as we know they only spoke to him cos he was the last person to see her. Even if they all thought he must know more than he's letting on, I'm not sure they can follow him around (human rights and all that) on a hunch?


 
Of course they can follow suspects, which he certainly was.


----------



## elbows (Aug 10, 2012)

CyberRose said:


> Well we don't know what they knew (or had evidence of), as far as we know they only spoke to him cos he was the last person to see her. Even if they all thought he must know more than he's letting on, I'm not sure they can follow him around (human rights and all that) on a hunch?


 
Certainly they should follow him around on a hunch when it comes to a potential (now confirmed) crime like this. If he escapes or turns up dead then it wont be long before the police get some well-deserved criticism.


----------



## _angel_ (Aug 10, 2012)

CyberRose said:


> Well we don't know what they knew (or had evidence of), as far as we know they only spoke to him cos he was the last person to see her. Even if they all thought he must know more than he's letting on, I'm not sure they can follow him around (human rights and all that) on a hunch?


Of course they can have him followed! The fact they've apparently lost him is pretty odd imo.


----------



## xenon (Aug 10, 2012)

Geri said:


> Not the first thing, obviously. But she has been missing a week and they have been looking all over. The papers have been hinting all week that she had never left the house, no CCTV, stories not adding up etc.
> 
> Of course it may have been moved in the meantime.



I imagine they looked around the house, her bedroom. Seen if there were any notes, stuff like that. But to start doing an invasive search in there before reasonable suspicion, - as in, got those stories recorded and CCTV looked adt. Well could have been a bit of a massive faux pa. Mind you, I thought they had dogs in there a couple of days ago, so as you say, maybe her body wasn't there then.


----------



## weltweit (Aug 10, 2012)

So, she did not leave without her oyster card and mobile, it was an odd assertion.


----------



## trashpony (Aug 10, 2012)

Fucking hell, I cannot imagine knowing that you and your mum both had a relationship with a man who killed your daughter. What a completely fucked up situation. Poor kid


----------



## CyberRose (Aug 10, 2012)

bi0boy said:


> Of course they can follow suspects, which he certainly was.





elbows said:


> Certainly they should follow him around on a hunch when it comes to a potential (now confirmed) crime like this. If he escapes or turns up dead then it wont be long before the police get some well-deserved criticism.





_angel_ said:


> Of course they can have him followed! The fact they've apparently lost him is pretty odd imo.


Like I said, we don't know what they knew...


----------



## kalidarkone (Aug 10, 2012)

and I thought I had shit taste in fellas.....


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 10, 2012)

RIP Tia


----------



## bi0boy (Aug 10, 2012)

CyberRose said:


> Like I said, we don't know what they knew...


 
Yes we do. They knew he was possibly the last person to see her alive. You think they had some secret knowledge that ruled him out as a suspect?


----------



## agricola (Aug 10, 2012)

xenon said:


> I imagine they looked around the house, her bedroom. Seen if there were any notes, stuff like that. But to start doing an invasive search in there before reasonable suspicion, - as in, got those stories recorded and CCTV looked adt. Well could have been a bit of a massive faux pa. Mind you, I thought they had dogs in there a couple of days ago, so as you say, maybe her body wasn't there then.


 
This is what usually happens with kids of that age who go missing, but I suppose it all depends where the body was and when the time of death was (though you would think someone in or visiting the house would have noticed if it had been easily accessable, given the weather conditions and possibly the time elapsed) before one could question how thorough any initial or subsequent searches were.

Anyway, this is horrible news, hope they pick up Hazel asap.


----------



## Favelado (Aug 10, 2012)

He has the following options.

1. Hiding in a ditch before getting caught.
2. Creating a hostage situation in which he gets caught, or he gets killed and possibly takes someone else with him.
3. Trying to leave the country and getting caught.
4. Turning himself in.

He has no chance at all of successfully disappearing.


----------



## Ranbay (Aug 10, 2012)

Favelado said:


> He has the following options.
> 
> 1. Hiding in a ditch before getting caught.
> 2. Creating a hostage situation in which he gets caught, or he gets killed and possibly takes someone else with him.
> ...


----------



## CyberRose (Aug 10, 2012)

bi0boy said:


> Yes we do. They knew he was possibly the last person to see her alive. You think they had some secret knowledge that ruled him out as a suspect?


Well they spoke to him on Wednesday, if they know what you say they know, why did they let him go and wait til today to search the house?


----------



## agricola (Aug 10, 2012)

Favelado said:


> He has the following options.
> 
> 1. Hiding in a ditch before getting caught.
> 2. Creating a hostage situation in which he gets caught, or he gets killed and possibly takes someone else with him.
> ...


 
"Top self" is also an option - indeed given what that estate is likely to be like, and how society and the media treats people convicted of (or even suspected of) offences like this, it may be the most likely option. I just hope he hands himself in.


----------



## bi0boy (Aug 10, 2012)

CyberRose said:


> Well they spoke to him on Wednesday, if they know what you say they know, why did they let him go and wait til today to search the house?


 
They probably didn't have enough evidence to arrest him. Why they waited until today to search the house I have no idea, perhaps they were waiting for more evidence.

That's no excuse for letting him go missing. Especially if they were about to search the house. You'd think they might have worked out where he was before doing that.


----------



## CyberRose (Aug 10, 2012)

bi0boy said:


> They probably didn't have enough evidence to arrest him. Why they waited until today to search the house I have no idea, perhaps they were waiting for more evidence.
> 
> That's no excuse for letting him go missing. Especially if they were about to search the house.


Well if there was no evidence for arresting him surely there would have been no evidence as well to have him followed 



> You'd think they might have worked out where he was before doing that.


If he is guilty perhaps the first thing he would have done after feeling the heat would have been to go into hiding?


----------



## weltweit (Aug 10, 2012)

Watching his interview with the Telegraph reporter, I was struck that he said "Tia "was" an angel" not "is".


----------



## weltweit (Aug 10, 2012)

Anyhow, how sad, a young life wasted. Very sad.


----------



## mack (Aug 10, 2012)

weltweit said:


> Watching his interview with the Telegraph reporter, I was struck that he said "Tia "was" an angel" not "is".


 
Yeah I noticed that too.."She was always eating sausage rolls"

He's got some front I'll give him that, hope I don't bump into the psycho on the way home tonight.


----------



## bi0boy (Aug 10, 2012)

CyberRose said:


> Well if there was no evidence for arresting him surely there would have been no evidence as well to have him followed


 
The standards of evidence required for arrest are high, generally they'd want to be confident from the outset that his arrest would lead to sufficient evidence to charge him within the specified time period.

To have him followed would simply require that he be a suspect, perhaps due to him being the last person to have seen her alive for example.



> If he is guilty perhaps the first thing he would have done after feeling the heat would have been to go into hiding?


 
Exactly, this is why they should have determined his location before publicly turning up the heat.


----------



## CyberRose (Aug 10, 2012)

bi0boy said:


> The standards of evidence required for arrest are high, generally they'd want to be confident from the outset that his arrest would lead to sufficient evidence to charge him within the specified time period.
> 
> To have him followed would simply require that he be a suspect, perhaps due to him being the last person to have seen her alive for example.


I'm sure they'd need a judges permission? It's a breach of human rights after all? (So back to the lack of evidence thing again)



> Exactly, this is why they should have determined his location before publicly turning up the heat.


They knew exactly where he was when they publicly turned up the heat! Sat in a police station answering questions! The problem is where he went _after _that...


----------



## agricola (Aug 10, 2012)

bi0boy said:
			
		

> Exactly, this is why they should have determined his location before publicly turning up the heat.


 
Perhaps, though this may have been a routine search and they may not have expected to find a body during it, once they did such was the media presence / interest it would be very difficult to keep any discovery like that under wraps.


----------



## bi0boy (Aug 10, 2012)

CyberRose said:


> I'm sure they'd need a judges permission? It's a breach of human rights after all? (So back to the lack of evidence thing again)


 
Bollocks they need a judge's permission to follow someone. You clearly have no clue what you're talking about.



> They knew exactly where he was when they publicly turned up the heat! Sat in a police station answering questions! The problem is where he went _after _that...


 
He was questioned as a witness. For him, the shit would have hit the fan after they returned to search the house.


----------



## weltweit (Aug 10, 2012)

I doubt he will get far, though they need to publicise his face more, I doubt most people will have seen his interview in the telegraph and apart from that there are no images of him that I am aware of.


----------



## SLK (Aug 10, 2012)

agricola said:


> "Top self" is also an option - indeed given what that estate is likely to be like, and how society and the media treats people convicted of (or even suspected of) offences like this, it may be the most likely option. I just hope he hands himself in.


 
"Top self" is my preferred option.

This is really sad.


----------



## yardbird (Aug 10, 2012)

Very depressing.
Kind of what one feared most having happened.
The real 'connection' between this (whatever has happened) and the Mathews in-the-bed  case is that two extremely sexually fucked up "families" were in the spotlight.


----------



## bi0boy (Aug 10, 2012)

agricola said:


> Perhaps, though this may have been a routine search and they may not have expected to find a body during it, once they did such was the media presence / interest it would be very difficult to keep any discovery like that under wraps.


 
Surely finding evidence to implicate the family was a distinct possibility. Either way they should have known of his whereabouts.


----------



## agricola (Aug 10, 2012)

bi0boy said:


> Surely finding evidence to implicate the family was a distinct possibility. Either way they should have known of his whereabouts.


 
Perhaps, though we dont know whether anyone else was considered a suspect - plus there is the issue of whether or not it would be proportional (either under human rights legislation or in terms of the amount of resources that would be required to do it properly) to have cops follow some bloke around on the off chance that they find something at some stage that would justify an arrest.


----------



## Ms T (Aug 10, 2012)

weltweit said:


> I doubt he will get far, though they need to publicise his face more, I doubt most people will have seen his interview in the telegraph and apart from that there are no images of him that I am aware of.


He gave an interview to ITN last night.


----------



## weltweit (Aug 10, 2012)

In case anyone does not know what Stuart Hazell looks like:





and more here: https://www.google.co.uk/search?num...1.0.0.0.0.87.87.1.1.0...0.0...1ac.1QkJH5zu4Iw


----------



## weltweit (Aug 10, 2012)

Ms T said:


> He gave an interview to ITN last night.


Oh, I didn't see that. Been busy hasn't he. Busy but stupid.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 10, 2012)

CyberRose said:


> I'm sure they'd need a judges permission? It's a breach of human rights after all? (So back to the lack of evidence thing again)


you've never been followed by the police, have you?


----------



## CyberRose (Aug 10, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> you've never been followed by the police, have you?


I don't know!


----------



## dylans (Aug 10, 2012)

Awful.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 10, 2012)

dylans said:


> Awful.


awful it looks like the step-grandfather or awful she was killed end of?


----------



## CyberRose (Aug 10, 2012)

bi0boy said:


> Bollocks they need a judge's permission to follow someone. You clearly have no clue what you're talking about.


Well I'll take your word on that can't see any reason to get into an argument over it



> He was questioned as a witness. For him, the shit would have hit the fan after they returned to search the house.


But if he is guilty, he would have known he was guilty when the police considered him as a witness as you say, and buggered off right then?


----------



## yardbird (Aug 10, 2012)

For some reason I'm thinking attic.


----------



## dylans (Aug 10, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> awful it looks like the step-grandfather or awful she was killed end of?


Behave yourself. There is a time and a place to behave like a fucking wanker. This isn't one of them.


----------



## bi0boy (Aug 10, 2012)

CyberRose said:


> But if he is guilty, he would have known he was guilty when the police considered him as a witness as you say, and buggered off right then?


 
He obviously thought everyone was believing his story, until of course the police went back to the property in great numbers and sealed off an area 100 yards around it and bought cadaver dogs in.


----------



## DRINK? (Aug 10, 2012)

Sad no surprise though doubt he will get far, doesn't seem the brightest. RIP such a waste


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 10, 2012)

yardbird said:


> Very depressing.
> Kind of what one feared most having happened.
> The real 'connection' between this (whatever has happened) and the Mathews in-the-bed case is that two extremely* sexually* fucked up "families" were in the spotlight.


 
Sexually? What have I missed here?


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 10, 2012)

dylans said:


> Behave yourself. There is a time and a place to behave like a fucking wanker. This isn't one of them.


i'd never noticed you to be something of a prig before.


----------



## shygirl (Aug 10, 2012)

Very sad, yet so predictable.  I wondered yesterday if he got into a relationship with her gran so he could stay around Tia.


----------



## CyberRose (Aug 10, 2012)

bi0boy said:


> He obviously thought everyone was believing his story, until of course the police went back to the property in great numbers and sealed off an area 100 yards around it and bought cadaver dogs in.


Assuming that's _when _he went missing...


----------



## bi0boy (Aug 10, 2012)

Rutita1 said:


> Sexually? What have I missed here?


 
Grandma was 46 - see previous posts, or just


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 10, 2012)

yardbird said:


> For some reason I'm thinking attic.


Wherever it was, it's not where she should have been. I hope they find him quickly.


----------



## killer b (Aug 10, 2012)

This thread is revolting. Some of you should be ashamed.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 10, 2012)

> Grandma was 46 - see previous posts, or just


I'll facepalm then. 

More importantly,
RIP Tia


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 10, 2012)

killer b said:


> This thread is revolting. Some of you should be ashamed.


this is urban75. you shouldn't come here if you don't want to be offended.


----------



## girasol (Aug 10, 2012)

weltweit said:


> Watching his interview with the Telegraph reporter, I was struck that he said "Tia "was" an angel" not "is".


 
Typical freudian slip...  The police must have suspected him, finding hard to believe they just let him disappear.  What the hell?


----------



## killer b (Aug 10, 2012)

I'm not offended


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 10, 2012)

http://www.surreycomet.co.uk/news/wimbledon/9868656.Reaction_to_body_discovery_in_Tia_case/


----------



## Favelado (Aug 10, 2012)

girasol said:


> Typical freudian slip... The police must have suspected him, finding hard to believe they just let him disappear. What the hell?


 
Given Mr. Hazel's sexual history, Freud is definitely the go-to guy for this one.


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 10, 2012)

CyberRose said:


> I'm sure they'd need a judges permission? It's a breach of human rights after all? (So back to the lack of evidence thing again)



They arrest people on suspicion of stuff all the time.

Any way, very sad, rip tia.

And remember also that it's innocent until proven guilty. People are already talking like he's been convicted ffs.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 10, 2012)

killer b said:


> I'm not offended


that's very disappointing.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 10, 2012)

Citizen66 said:


> They arrest people on suspicion of stuff all the time.
> 
> Any way, very sad, rip tia.
> 
> And remember also that it's innocent until proven guilty. People are already talking like he's been convicted ffs.


and we all know how much editor likes that.


----------



## CyberRose (Aug 10, 2012)

Citizen66 said:


> They arrest people on suspicion of stuff all the time.


That comment was about following people, not arresting people (but apparently I've been corrected now anyway...)


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 10, 2012)

Never get to grow up, never get to be cool. When they pinch the man who did it I hope he looks forward to being lifed off in the beast wing. Nasty shit.


----------



## Geri (Aug 10, 2012)

killer b said:


> This thread is revolting. Some of you should be ashamed.


 
It's pretty tame compared to others I've read elsewhere.


----------



## Favelado (Aug 10, 2012)

DotCommunist said:


> Never get to grow up, never get to be cool. When they pinch the man who did it I hope he looks forward to being lifed off in the beast wing. Nasty shit.


 

Rec and meal times will be nervy for him. They rarely go too many years without being cut up in some way.


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 10, 2012)

Favelado said:


> Rec and meal times will be nervy for him. They rarely go too many years without being cut up in some way.



He'll be back on the rock in no time, assuming he isn't already nursing a habit, so the paranoia levels will make it pretty unbearable without any physical assaults taking place.


----------



## killer b (Aug 10, 2012)

Geri said:


> It's pretty tame compared to others I've read elsewhere.


Still shit though


----------



## paulhackett (Aug 10, 2012)

Citizen66 said:


> They arrest people on suspicion of stuff all the time.
> 
> Any way, very sad, rip tia.
> 
> And remember also that it's innocent until proven guilty. People are already talking like he's been convicted ffs.


 
To be fair, there's a limited number of people who could be in the frame when the body of a family member is found in a family home?


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 10, 2012)

paulhackett said:


> To be fair, there's a limited number of people who could be in the frame when the body of a family member is found in a family home?



I agree. Still not wise to potentially fuck up the trial though.


----------



## shagnasty (Aug 10, 2012)

Citizen66 said:


> They arrest people on suspicion of stuff all the time.
> 
> Any way, very sad, rip tia.
> 
> And remember also that it's innocent until proven guilty. People are already talking like he's been convicted ffs.


Procedure must be followed because there is a sleight, i say sleight chance that he may be innocent .But to be honest he was the last to see her alive and he was alone with her at the house prima facie it is not looking good


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 10, 2012)

shagnasty said:


> Procedure must be followed because there is a sleight, i say sleight chance that he may be innocent .But to be honest he was the last to see her alive and he was alone with her at the house prima facie it is not looking good



Well if I was a betting man i'd put a monkey on the nose. But, still...


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 10, 2012)

There's an american forum called websleuths. I joined it during the Joanna Yeates inquiry. On that forum, you can't swear but you can write pretty inflammatory and offensive stuff with impunity. The glee that some people obviously felt when discussing the murder and the suspects (the landlord was pretty much guilty and was also guilty of completed unrelated crimes happening in the vague area, according to some on that forum) was palpable and quite honestly made me physically sick.

What was interesting was how certain media outlets were obviously lurking on the thread. One poster did a 3D visual of the flat based on public domain information in order to address some points he was making, and it appeared on the BBC website within a day.


----------



## dylans (Aug 10, 2012)

killer b said:


> Still shit though


Unfortunately, these types of threads usually follow a similar pattern. Amateur columbo posts, followed by shock if the worst is found to have happened, followed by  pages of sadistic torture fantasies aimed at the killer. We are now entering stage 3. 

I think often people just want to say something but there is nothing really to say.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Aug 10, 2012)

dylans said:


> Unfortunately, these types of threads usually follow a similar pattern. Amateur columbo posts, followed by shock if the worst is found to have happened, followed by pages of sadistic torture fantasies aimed at the killer. We are now entering stage 3.
> 
> I think often people just want to say something but there is nothing really to say.


 
Yeah, these people who give vent to the darker side of their own natures by indulging in these rather disturbing S&M fantasies about what they'd like to happen to the guy in prison really  don't show themselves in a very good light.


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 10, 2012)

Favelado said:


> Rec and meal times will be nervy for him. They rarely go too many years without being cut up in some way.


 

theres a degree of screw complicity thats unacceptable there imo. When I heard baby p's killer had got the boiling water/sugar combo I didn't weep but I did question the levels of complicity. Seeing first hand the level of security in A cat prisons, theres no sodding way you can pull that off without some screws looking the other way.


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 10, 2012)

Frances Lengel said:


> Yeah, these people who give vent to the darker side of their own natures by indulging in these rather disturbing S&M fantasies about what they'd like to happen to the guy in prison really don't show themselves in a very good light.


 

there is no justice, just us


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 10, 2012)

Frances Lengel said:


> Yeah, these people who give vent to the darker side of their own natures by indulging in these rather disturbing S&M fantasies about what they'd like to happen to the guy in prison really  don't show themselves in a very good light.



And what of the voyeurs who openly tut but are still here reading?


----------



## Favelado (Aug 10, 2012)

DotCommunist said:


> theres a degree of screw complicity thats unacceptable there imo. When I heard baby p's killer had got the boiling water/sugar combo I didn't weep but I did question the levels of complicity. Seeing first hand the level of security in A cat prisons, theres no sodding way you can pull that off without some screws looking the other way.


 
I guess there must be instances of complicity. What in the name of crikey is "the boiling water/sugar combo"?


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 10, 2012)

Favelado said:


> I guess there must be instances of complicity. What in the name of crikey is "the boiling water/sugar combo"?



The sugar sticks to, and further burns, the skin. Iirc.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Aug 10, 2012)

Citizen66 said:


> And what of the voyeurs who openly tut but are still here reading?


 
Since when was it voyeuristic to read a thread on a discussion forum & offer ones opinion on what's being discussed?


----------



## D'wards (Aug 10, 2012)

I'm not normally a supporter of vigilante action, but in this instance i'd quite like it if the notorious Addo thugs get to him before the polis do


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 10, 2012)

'prison napalm' is the term. At home you can make your own slightly nastier napalm by sticking polysterene into petrol and stirring every noww and then till you have a flammable and yet glutinous mix.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 10, 2012)

D'wards said:


> I'm not normally a supporter of vigilante action, but in this instance i'd quite like it if the notorious Addo thugs get to him before the polis do


top stuff! so let's see how many lives can be fucked up beyond those already blighted. shall we have a sweepstake?


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 10, 2012)

Citizen66 said:


> And what of the voyeurs who openly tut but are still here reading?


what of them?


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 10, 2012)

Frances Lengel said:


> Since when was it voyeuristic to read a thread on a discussion forum & offer ones opinion on what's being discussed?



When you claim to find the content distasteful but continue reading any way.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 10, 2012)

Citizen66 said:


> When you claim to find the content distasteful but continue reading any way.


i'm not sure you've grasped the vicarious thrill which lies at the heart of voyeurism.


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 10, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> i'm not sure you've grasped the vicarious thrill which lies at the heart of voyeurism.



I'm not sure that your sarcasm detector is entirely functional.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 10, 2012)

Citizen66 said:


> I'm not sure that your sarcasm detector is entirely functional.


i just thought you were posting shit


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 10, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> i just thought you were posting shit



That's nice for you.


----------



## fogbat (Aug 10, 2012)

Has Kenneth Tong made any comment yet?


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 10, 2012)

Citizen66 said:


> That's nice for you.


it seemed somewhat out of character for you


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 10, 2012)

fogbat said:


> Has Kenneth Tong made any comment yet?


Can only be a matter of time before he's making the sick jokes about her too, the odious wanker.


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 10, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> it seemed somewhat out of character for you



My sarcasm detector is working, cheers!


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 10, 2012)

Citizen66 said:


> My sarcasm detector is working, cheers!


just checking


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 10, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> just checking



Almost fell for it...


----------



## Belushi (Aug 10, 2012)

fogbat said:


> Has Kenneth Tong made any comment yet?


 
Not yet - get on twitter now, this is your big chance for infamy!


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 10, 2012)

Citizen66 said:


> Almost fell for it...








it all seems to be working, but you should take it easy till you can get a full mot.


----------



## fogbat (Aug 10, 2012)

Belushi said:


> Not yet - get on twitter now, this is your big chance for infamy!


Fish in a barrel - beneath me.


----------



## 1%er (Aug 10, 2012)

fogbat said:


> Has Kenneth Tong made any comment yet?


It was the granddad in the bathroom with the luffa or something like that I'd guess


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 10, 2012)

1%er said:


> It was the granddad in the bathroom with the luffa or something like that I'd guess


ian huntley used the bathroom, so i suspect another room in the house will be the scene.


----------



## 1%er (Aug 10, 2012)

From what I've read here it sounds as if the guy like to keep it in the family, so I hope the child didn't suffer.


----------



## Thora (Aug 10, 2012)

bi0boy said:


> Grandma was 46 - see previous posts, or just


Sexually fucked up in that he used to by the mother's boyfriend rather than anyone's age I assume.


----------



## claphamboy (Aug 10, 2012)

Is anyone actually that surprised by the outcome here?


----------



## twentythreedom (Aug 10, 2012)

Jeremy Kyle is a cunt


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 10, 2012)

claphamboy said:


> Is anyone actually that surprised by the outcome here?


yes, i thought at least one person would have been banned by now.


----------



## claphamboy (Aug 10, 2012)

claphamboy said:


> Is anyone actually that surprised by the outcome here?


 
Apart from the police?


----------



## Lock&Light (Aug 10, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> awful it looks like the step-grandfather or awful she was killed end of?


 
What a stupid question.


----------



## Badgers (Aug 10, 2012)

> Earlier, officers with a police dog spent about 30 minutes in the house. Tia's uncle, grandmother and Mr Hazell had all made emotional appeals to find the schoolgirl. Mr Hazell was believed to have been the last person to have seen her.


 
Sad


----------



## Apathy (Aug 10, 2012)

RIP Tia


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Aug 10, 2012)

dylans said:


> Unfortunately, these types of threads usually follow a similar pattern. Amateur columbo posts, followed by shock if the worst is found to have happened, followed by pages of sadistic torture fantasies aimed at the killer. We are now entering stage 3.
> 
> I think often people just want to say something but there is nothing really to say.


 
Well said.

And you have taught me more than, I truly hope, I ever need to know on this subject.


----------



## dylans (Aug 10, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> just what we need, some thick anal cunt to fuck up the thread.


Stop. Just stop ok. A child has just been murdered. Have a little respect.


----------



## Lock&Light (Aug 10, 2012)

dylans said:


> Stop. Just stop ok. A child has just been murdered. Have a little respect.


 
No chance of that from Picky.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 10, 2012)

http://www.croydonguardian.co.uk/news/9868748.Common_searched_in_Stuart_Hazell_manhunt/


----------



## 1927 (Aug 10, 2012)

mack said:


> Yeah I noticed that too.."She was always eating sausage rolls"
> 
> He's got some front I'll give him that, hope I don't bump into the psycho on the way home tonight.


 
It may well have been something that simple that triggered the police to search the house.


----------



## CyberRose (Aug 10, 2012)

Maybe Hazell was the one that tipped the police off bout the grandmother's house before he went missing?


----------



## 1927 (Aug 10, 2012)

SLK said:


> "Top self" is my preferred option.
> 
> This is really sad.


 
Well it certainly saves the cost of a trial and incarcerating the bastard for the rest of his natural, but i prefer the "uncles" catch up with him before the police option!


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 10, 2012)

1927 said:


> It may well have been something that simple that triggered the police to search the house.


yeh, the bit about suspects being given the rope to hang themselves earlier in the thread was quite interesting.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 10, 2012)

1927 said:


> Well it certainly saves the cost of a trial and incarcerating the bastard for the rest of his natural, but i prefer the "uncles" catch up with him before the police option!


i refer you to the post i made about how many lives more do you think should be fucked up.


----------



## 5t3IIa (Aug 10, 2012)

I swear down the BBC news said the body was found *near* the house?


----------



## 1927 (Aug 10, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> i refer you to the post i made about how many lives more do you think should be fucked up.


 
Well if i was a juror I wouldnt find them guilty of any crime.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 10, 2012)

5t3IIa said:


> I swear down the BBC news said the body was found *near* the house?


says 'at' now.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 10, 2012)

1927 said:


> Well if i was a juror I wouldnt find them guilty of any crime.


yes: but that would be after many months of going through the commital process, not to mention police bail.


----------



## Yetman (Aug 10, 2012)

What a fucking cunt (if it is him, though I think it's fairly safe to say it is).

Can't help but think of this piece of shit ruining the chances for anybody else with a history they're trying to overcome getting mentioned in any situation where the potential for judgment may arise.

Once a scumbag always a scumbag? People are going to think so a lot more now. Fucking cunt.


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 10, 2012)

dylans said:


> Stop. Just stop ok. A child has just been murdered. Have a little respect.



Not really good form to conflate a disagreement with a poster with disrespecting a murdered child, tbh.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 10, 2012)

CyberRose said:


> Maybe Hazell was the one that tipped the police off bout the grandmother's house before he went missing?


it's an interesting thought.


----------



## dylans (Aug 10, 2012)

Citizen66 said:


> Not really good form to conflate a disagreement with a poster with disrespecting a murdered child, tbh.


Its not his disagreement with a poster I object to, its his choosing to troll a thread of this nature. There is a time and a place when acting like an obnoxious trolling cunt might be ok but a thread about a murdered child is not it.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 10, 2012)

dylans said:


> Its not his disagreeing with a poster I object to its his choosing to troll a thread of this nature. There is a time and a place when acting like an obnoxious trolling cunt might be ok but a thread about a murdered child is not it.


if you're going to behave like a prig, i don't see how that's a million miles away from the behaviour you affect to abhor.

anyway...


----------



## 1%er (Aug 10, 2012)

According to the radio (lbc.co.uk) there is a child killed by a family member approximately every 3 days in the UK, he went on to claim the number has gone down a little but that isn't because it happens less it is because hospitals are saving more and more victims.


----------



## Gingerman (Aug 10, 2012)

Yetman said:


> What a fucking cunt (if it is him, though I think it's fairly safe to say it is).
> 
> Can't help but think of this piece of shit ruining the chances for anybody else with a history they're trying to overcome getting mentioned in any situation where the potential for judgment may arise.
> 
> Once a scumbag always a scumbag? People are going to think so a lot more now. Fucking cunt.


Aye,can imagine the Daily Wail and the Sun sharpening their pencils right now


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 10, 2012)

1%er said:


> According to the radio (lbc.co.uk) there is a child killed by a family member approximately every 3 days in the UK, he went on to claim the number has gone down a little but that isn't because it happens less it is because hospitals are saving more and more victims.


and interestingly it seems comparatively rare that it's a stranger. for every hindley and brady, there must be several huntleys.


----------



## 1927 (Aug 10, 2012)

Gingerman said:


> Aye,can imagine the Daily Wail and the Sun sharpening their pencils right now


 
Maybe the reason no one can find him is the Sun had him holed up in a hotel for an exclusive story.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 10, 2012)

1927 said:


> Maybe the reason no one can find him is the Sun had him holed up in a hotel for an exclusive story.


no, i think he'll be found dead.


----------



## Gingerman (Aug 10, 2012)

1927 said:


> Maybe the reason no one can find him is the Sun had him holed up in a hotel for an exclusive story.


Wouldn't that be just


----------



## CyberRose (Aug 10, 2012)

Gingerman said:


> Wouldn't that be just


Possibly not quite the smiley I would have used but I think I can see your point!


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Aug 10, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> no, i think he'll be found dead.


 
Bet ya a tenner to the server fund he's taken alive.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 10, 2012)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Bet ya a tenner to the server fund he's taken alive.


*shakes hands*


----------



## 5t3IIa (Aug 10, 2012)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Bet ya a tenner to the server fund he's taken alive.



Bumper bag of hoops it's an OD.


----------



## miss giggles (Aug 10, 2012)

Yetman said:


> What a fucking cunt (if it is him, though I think it's fairly safe to say it is).
> 
> Can't help but think of this piece of shit ruining the chances for anybody else with a history they're trying to overcome getting mentioned in any situation where the potential for judgment may arise.
> 
> Once a scumbag always a scumbag? People are going to think so a lot more now. Fucking cunt.


 
Do you know, it's not his past that bothered me, it was his present. I may well be totally out of step with the modern world, (it wouldn't be the first time) but as soon as it was revealed he had sexual relationships with both the mother and grandmother he was suspect number one in my eyes.
I hate to sound like a middle Englander but that really bothered me. I'm no angel, but I wouldn't even sleep with someone who'd been with my friend never mind a family member. The thought of it makes me feel kind of queasy... Is this kind of thing usual? I really don't know, it might just be that I'm a bit old fashioned, but I would be interested to hear what others think about it?


----------



## 1927 (Aug 10, 2012)

Of course the one thing that we havent considered when criticising police is that she may well still been alive til today/yesterday!


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 10, 2012)

miss giggles said:


> Do you know, it's not his past that bothered me, it was his present. I may well be totally out of step with the modern world, (it wouldn't be the first time) but as soon as it was revealed he had sexual relationships with both the mother and grandmother he was suspect number one in my eyes.
> I hate to sound like a middle Englander but that really bothered me. I'm no angel, but I wouldn't even sleep with someone who'd been with my friend never mind a family member. The thought of it makes me feel kind of queasy... Is this kind of thing usual? I really don't know, it might just be that I'm a bit old fashioned, but I would be interested to hear what others think about it?


it's one thing among friends -- it's quite another among family. the potential for vicious family arguments would be enormous! yeh, there's something very wrong there, though i don't think this would necessarily be the case if someone stops going out with one person and goes out with their friend (although there's obviously a great deal of fuel there for fallings out and arguing).


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 10, 2012)

1927 said:


> Of course the one thing that we havent considered when criticising police is that she may well still been alive til today/yesterday!


yes; a week-old corpse kept outside refrigeration would - i suspect - have begun to smell. but then that would almost certainly have meant that two people were in it together...


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Aug 10, 2012)

5t3IIa said:


> Bumper bag of hoops it's an OD.


 
Don't count, looking at the state of the cunt he could pop off drugwise at any mo.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Aug 10, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> *shakes hands*


 
*shakes*


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 10, 2012)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> *shakes*


it's alright, there's nothing to be nervous about.


----------



## CyberRose (Aug 10, 2012)

1927 said:


> Of course the one thing that we havent considered when criticising police is that she may well still been alive til today/yesterday!


Fingers crossed hey?


----------



## 5t3IIa (Aug 10, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> it's alright, there's nothing to be nervous about.


Thatll be the booze


----------



## Belushi (Aug 10, 2012)

You're betting on the outcome?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Aug 10, 2012)

5t3IIa said:


> Thatll be the booze


 
Silly mare, I've had enough now that the shakes are gone for the night.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 10, 2012)

5t3IIa said:


> Thatll be the booze


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 10, 2012)

Belushi said:


> You're betting on the outcome?


of course.

this is URBAN after all


----------



## Belushi (Aug 10, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> of course.
> 
> this is URBAN after all


 
Old school cunty urban, back when it was fun


----------



## Geri (Aug 10, 2012)

miss giggles said:


> Do you know, it's not his past that bothered me, it was his present. I may well be totally out of step with the modern world, (it wouldn't be the first time) but as soon as it was revealed he had sexual relationships with both the mother and grandmother he was suspect number one in my eyes.
> I hate to sound like a middle Englander but that really bothered me. I'm no angel, but I wouldn't even sleep with someone who'd been with my friend never mind a family member. The thought of it makes me feel kind of queasy... Is this kind of thing usual? I really don't know, it might just be that I'm a bit old fashioned, but I would be interested to hear what others think about it?


 
Neither would I, but some people don't appear to have any boundaries when it comes to relationships. I have a male friend whose only stipulation is that the woman is single. They could have been engaged to his best friend, but if they split up yesterday then they are fair game.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 10, 2012)

Belushi said:


> Old school cunty urban, back when it was fun


it takes me back to a time i knew before.


----------



## 1927 (Aug 10, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> yes; a week-old corpse kept outside refrigeration would - i suspect - have begun to smell. but then that would almost certainly have meant that two people were in it together...


 
If that is the case the whole situation is even more fucked up.


----------



## yardbird (Aug 10, 2012)

Gingerman said:


> Aye,can imagine the Daily Wail and the Sun sharpening their pencils right now


And if I have a pint in my village tomorrow - Mid Sussex loaded Daily Fail readers will be everywhere and I'm going to check my watch as I go in see how long I have to wait before I overhear - "Bring Back Hanging"


----------



## 1927 (Aug 10, 2012)

Cant beleive some of the statements from his sister and the garndmother who both seem to be in denial that he has anything to do with it!


----------



## purenarcotic (Aug 10, 2012)

Poor wee thing, RIP Tia.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 10, 2012)

i saw this







and wondered why the people who to 'please contact' had the white blank over them.


----------



## cybertect (Aug 10, 2012)

BBC News 24 reporting the Police say the have apprehended Hazell.


----------



## yardbird (Aug 10, 2012)

miss giggles said:


> Do you know, it's not his past that bothered me, it was his present. I may well be totally out of step with the modern world, (it wouldn't be the first time) but as soon as it was revealed he had sexual relationships with both the mother and grandmother he was suspect number one in my eyes./quote]
> See my post #2.
> Plus crack addled teeth,


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 10, 2012)

cybertect said:


> BBC News 24 reporting the Police say the have apprehended Hazell.


yeh: http://www.itv.com/news/update/2012-08-10/hazell-arrested-in-tia-sharp-investigation/


----------



## CyberRose (Aug 10, 2012)

http://www.thisiscroydontoday.co.uk...ther-s-house/story-16689452-detail/story.html

House had already been searched three times before today, including with sniffer dogs...bit of a dumb comment considering everything that's happened, but something definitely doesn't seem right here. Think there may be lot more to this than meets the eye...


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 10, 2012)

there were three searches of the house before they found her body http://www.croydonguardian.co.uk/ne...es_of_Tia_s_gran_s_house_before_finding_body/


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 10, 2012)

CyberRose said:


> http://www.thisiscroydontoday.co.uk...ther-s-house/story-16689452-detail/story.html
> 
> House had already been searched three times before today, including with sniffer dogs...bit of a dumb comment considering everything that's happened, but something definitely doesn't seem right here. Think there may be lot more to this than meets the eye...


curiouser and curiouser and not in a good way


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 10, 2012)

CyberRose said:


> http://www.thisiscroydontoday.co.uk...ther-s-house/story-16689452-detail/story.html
> 
> House had already been searched three times before today, including with sniffer dogs...bit of a dumb comment considering everything that's happened, but something definitely doesn't seem right here. Think there may be lot more to this than meets the eye...




Twattish curtain twitching ignorance in above post and many others on the thread.
Fuck off armchair detectives!M


----------



## CyberRose (Aug 10, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> curiouser and curiouser and not in a good way


Or a more simple explanation that it could have been three shit searches? But I'd like to think at least sniffer dogs would have found something?


----------



## purenarcotic (Aug 10, 2012)

Maybe the body was being stored somewhere else and they moved it back to the house because they thought the OB were leaving off the house?  Who knows really, seems silly to speculate I guess.  

It's so sad though, what a waste of such a little life.


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 10, 2012)

purenarcotic said:


> seems silly to speculate I guess.


Indeed


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Aug 10, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh: http://www.itv.com/news/update/2012-08-10/hazell-arrested-in-tia-sharp-investigation/


 
http://www.urban75.org/donate.html


----------



## Wilf (Aug 10, 2012)

If anybody wants to crow about winning a bet, don't.

Edit:


----------



## kittyP (Aug 10, 2012)

Yetman said:
			
		

> What a fucking cunt (if it is him, though I think it's fairly safe to say it is).
> 
> Can't help but think of this piece of shit ruining the chances for anybody else with a history they're trying to overcome getting mentioned in any situation where the potential for judgment may arise.
> 
> Once a scumbag always a scumbag? People are going to think so a lot more now. Fucking cunt.



This. 
Very sad for a lot of innocent people out there in the future


----------



## agricola (Aug 10, 2012)

CyberRose said:


> Or a more simple explanation that it could have been three shit searches? But I'd like to think at least sniffer dogs would have found something?


 
It depends on where the body was, and what type of dogs were used (the Met has various different types of dog trained to search for different things - drugs, firearms, journalists, money, cadaver dogs etc).


----------



## yardbird (Aug 10, 2012)

If...
A complicated girlfriend with daughter then grandmother and daughter scenario.
Grooming?


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 10, 2012)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> http://www.urban75.org/donate.html


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 10, 2012)

agricola said:


> It depends on where the body was, and what type of dogs were used (the Met has various different types of dog trained to search for different things - drugs, firearms, journalists, money, cadaver dogs etc).


you'd hope they would have sent out the body dogs.


----------



## agricola (Aug 10, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> you'd hope they would have sent out the body dogs.


 
Not really, especially if they were still treating her as missing.


----------



## yardbird (Aug 10, 2012)

agricola said:


> It depends on where the body was, and what type of dogs were used (the Met has various different types of dog trained to search for different things - drugs, firearms, journalists, money, cadaver dogs etc).


The last dog in was a cadaver specialist dog - I've posted that earlier.
Journalists. Naughty.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 10, 2012)

the bbc are reporting FOUR searches

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-19214970


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Aug 10, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


>


 
Cough up. Silver lining and all that.


----------



## agricola (Aug 10, 2012)

yardbird said:


> The last dog in was a cadaver specialist dog - I've posted that earlier.


 
Last in, as in today?  If thats the case it suggests that the body was not easy to find.


----------



## yardbird (Aug 10, 2012)

agricola said:


> Last in, as in today? If thats the case it suggests that the body was not easy to find.


Roof void.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Aug 10, 2012)

yardbird said:


> The last dog in was a cadaver specialist dog - I've posted that earlier.
> Journalists. Naughty.


 

What are you on about?

The Met has a team of dogs whose sole purpose is to stalk corpses?


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 10, 2012)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Cough up. Silver lining and all that.


it'll get paid tomorrow.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 10, 2012)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> What are you on about?
> 
> The Met has a team of dogs whose sole purpose is to stalk corpses?


zombie dogs


----------



## Barking_Mad (Aug 10, 2012)

ITV interview with the guy from the other day:

http://www.itv.com/news/2012-08-09/...s-grandmothers-partner-begs-her-to-come-home/


----------



## felixthecat (Aug 10, 2012)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> What are you on about?
> 
> The Met has a team of dogs whose sole purpose is to stalk corpses?


 
Sadly, yes


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 10, 2012)

Barking_Mad said:


> ITV interview with the guy from the other day:
> 
> http://www.itv.com/news/2012-08-09/...s-grandmothers-partner-begs-her-to-come-home/


if he is the killer, it's ian huntley all over again


----------



## Barking_Mad (Aug 10, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> if he is the killer, it's ian huntley all over again


 
From the first couple of minutes of that interview it sounds like her was getting a bit pissed off with her that evening, and he's gibbering away giving a running account of everything he did. Well, maybe not everything.


----------



## Favelado (Aug 10, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> if he is the killer, it's ian huntley all over again


 
Huntley was a much more convincing liar.


----------



## yardbird (Aug 10, 2012)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> What are you on about?
> 
> The Met has a team of dogs whose sole purpose is to stalk corpses?


Of course.


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 10, 2012)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> What are you on about?
> 
> The Met has a team of dogs whose sole purpose is to stalk corpses?


Yes. Many police forces do.


----------



## miktheword (Aug 10, 2012)

Favelado said:


> Huntley was a much more convincing liar.






I'm pretty sure I remember him doing another interview, in caretaker role before locals meeting in the school hall. He let slip 'I was the last one to see them alive...'

little slips like that are often why I reckon OB put them up for interview. Remember Matthews mum in front of the cameras being watched for eye flickering when asked certain questions.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 10, 2012)

miktheword said:


> I'm pretty sure I remember him doing another interview, in caretaker role before locals meeting in the school hall. He let slip 'I was the last one to see them alive...'
> 
> little slips like that are often why I reckon OB put them up for interview. Remember Matthews mum in front of the cameras being watched for eye flickering when asked certain questions.


frankly it's not that much of a slip when other people had also pointed that out, about him being apparently the last person to see them alive (jessica and holly?)


----------



## miktheword (Aug 10, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> frankly it's not that much of a slip when other people had also pointed that out, about him being apparently the last person to see them alive (jessica and holly?)


 

But I would've thought other people meant 'confirmed sightings'..?...he sounded sure...too sure maybe...?


----------



## Favelado (Aug 10, 2012)

miktheword said:


> I'm pretty sure I remember him doing another interview, in caretaker role before locals meeting in the school hall. He let slip 'I was the last one to see them alive...'
> 
> little slips like that are often why I reckon OB put them up for interview. Remember Matthews mum in front of the cameras being watched for eye flickering when asked certain questions.


 
I watched a documentary about these cases, and the police do indeed put them in front of the cameras to see how they get on.



Pickman's model said:


> frankly it's not that much of a slip when other people had also pointed that out, about him being apparently the last person to see them alive (jessica and holly?)


 
Almost forgot their names there you heartless bastard. You're as bad as Huntley.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 10, 2012)

Favelado said:


> Almost forgot their names there you heartless bastard. You're as bad as Huntley.


 
Get a grip.


----------



## Favelado (Aug 10, 2012)

Rutita1 said:


> Get a grip.


 
I wasn't serious. I'm surprised I'm having to point that out.


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 10, 2012)

Shut up everyone


----------



## Favelado (Aug 10, 2012)

Never ever tell me what to do again.


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 10, 2012)

Shut up you


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 10, 2012)

This isn't fucking Eastenders


----------



## Wilf (Aug 10, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> Shut up everyone


 
*_____________________________________________________________________*


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 10, 2012)

Favelado said:


> Never ever tell me what to do again.


 
Get a grip.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 10, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> Shut up everyone


have you ever noticed how your commands are more honoured in the breach than the observance?


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 10, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> This isn't fucking Eastenders


how observant you are this evening.


----------



## Favelado (Aug 10, 2012)

The last time I watched Eastenders Wilmott Brown had just opened the Dagmar.


----------



## weltweit (Aug 10, 2012)

Hazell, though I think he is pretty stupid, must have some confidence sitting in the same house as Tia's body and giving interviews. What I can't see is how he expected to get away with it at all!


----------



## Wilf (Aug 10, 2012)

Could a mod lock the thread?


----------



## twentythreedom (Aug 10, 2012)

Get out of my pub


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 10, 2012)

Wilf said:


> Could a mod lock the thread?


yes, if they were so minded.


----------



## twentythreedom (Aug 10, 2012)

Thread lock not needed until charges are brought.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 10, 2012)

twentythreedom said:


> Thread lock not needed until charges are brought.


not needed after that if people like ou keep posting nonsense about the television.


----------



## twentythreedom (Aug 10, 2012)

Cunt's obviously a nonce anyway


----------



## twentythreedom (Aug 10, 2012)

^^not OU btw


----------



## Wilf (Aug 10, 2012)

twentythreedom said:


> Thread lock not needed until charges are brought.


 Do you seriously think I'm suggesting locking it for legal reasons?  Anyway, I'll leave you, Pickmans et al to dance around.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 10, 2012)

twentythreedom said:


> Cunt's obviously a nonce anyway


ou's not my favourite person but i wouldn't go that far


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 10, 2012)

Wilf said:


> Do you seriously think I'm suggesting locking it for legal reasons? Anyway, I'll leave you, Pickmans et al to dance around.


i'm not sure why you joined us in the first place


----------



## Favelado (Aug 10, 2012)

So, how do they get a jury together for a case like this? There are plenty of precedents but I don't know how it works when the defendant has become as famous as Stuart Hazell.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 10, 2012)

Favelado said:


> So, how do they get a jury together for a case like this? There are plenty of precedents but I don't know how it works when the defendant has become as famous as Stuart Hazell.


----------



## Firky (Aug 10, 2012)

Almost like old times this thread.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 10, 2012)

firky said:


> Almost like old times this thread.


good to have you back


----------



## twentythreedom (Aug 10, 2012)

Wilf said:


> Do you seriously think I'm suggesting locking it for legal reasons? Anyway, I'll leave you, Pickmans et al to dance around.


wtf?? why should this thread be locked? 

WILF, STEP AWAY FROM THE THREAD IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT 

srsly though, why lock it?


----------



## bi0boy (Aug 10, 2012)

Favelado said:


> So, how do they get a jury together for a case like this? There are plenty of precedents but I don't know how it works when the defendant has become as famous as Stuart Hazell.


 
There's no need for a jury to have no prior knowledge of a defendant, they just need to judge the case on the evidence presented in court.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 10, 2012)

twentythreedom said:


> wtf?? why should this thread be locked?
> 
> WILF, STEP AWAY FROM THE THREAD IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT
> 
> srsly though, why lock it?


so that he doesn't have to read 100 posts when he gets up to join us tomorrow morning.


----------



## Favelado (Aug 10, 2012)

bi0boy said:


> There's no need for a jury to have no prior knowledge of a defendant, they just need to judge the case on the evidence presented in court.


 
I think I may be getting mixed up with something I saw about the USA. Or maybe I imagined or misunderstood it. What I'm trying to say is that I'm dense.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 10, 2012)

Favelado said:


> I think I may be getting mixed up with something I saw about the USA. Or maybe I imagined or misunderstood it. What I'm trying to say is that I'm dense.


you're among friends here, and we'd all already worked that out


----------



## weltweit (Aug 10, 2012)

Favelado said:


> So, how do they get a jury together for a case like this? There are plenty of precedents but I don't know how it works when the defendant has become as famous as Stuart Hazell.


I think Ian Huntley was at least as famous, no trouble trying him.


----------



## UrbaneFox (Aug 10, 2012)

girasol said:


> Typical freudian slip... The police must have suspected him, finding hard to believe they just let him disappear. What the hell?


 
Not necessarily. Maybe he had a poor education and says 'should of' instead of 'should have', and uses  prepositions to end sentences.

In some communities and families, people mock one for using extended codes of language and polysyllabic words, and the mocked 'dumb down' to avoid bullying.

Ian Huntley also spoke about the Soham girls in the past tense, when he was pretending too look for them. Suspect the police think they are on to something.


----------



## 8115 (Aug 10, 2012)

UrbaneFox said:


> Suspect the police think they are on to something.


 
They've found a body in the house. Sadly, they're definitely onto something.


----------



## Favelado (Aug 10, 2012)

99% of people finish sentences with prepositions in modern English don't they?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 11, 2012)

Favelado said:


> 99% of people finish sentences with prepositions in modern English don't they?


No.


----------



## trashpony (Aug 11, 2012)

Anyway, he's been arrested


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 11, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh: http://www.itv.com/news/update/2012-08-10/hazell-arrested-in-tia-sharp-investigation/


----------



## Favelado (Aug 11, 2012)

Rutita1 said:


> No.


 

I'm sorry, I'm sure they do. If you didn't you'd sound like something from Tudor England.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 11, 2012)

Favelado said:


> I'm sorry, I'm sure they do. If you didn't you'd sound like something from Tudor England.


Goodnight.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 11, 2012)

Favelado said:


> I'm sorry, I'm sure they do. If you didn't you'd sound like something from Tudor England.


prithee withdraw the remark


----------



## Favelado (Aug 11, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> prithee withdraw the remark


 
Bono still hasn't found that for which he is looking.


----------



## Firky (Aug 11, 2012)

Favelado said:


> I'm sorry, I'm sure they do. If you didn't you'd sound like something from Tudor England.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 11, 2012)

Favelado said:


> Bono still hasn't found that for which he is looking.


that's cos bono's a messy wanker.

next.


----------



## UrbaneFox (Aug 11, 2012)

This evening, PM spoke to a police officer who said that they weren't allowed to search the upstairs of grandma's house.

I agree it would not be a good idea to rip up the floorboards when someone has just been reported missing, but it is not as though the police's cunning plan to interview the main suspect, in the hope that sharp-eyed viewers would see the truth, really helped.

Soon we will be told how much the police search has cost, man hours etc.


----------



## Miss Caphat (Aug 11, 2012)

"Did I do anything to Tia? No, I didn't. I love her *to bits*. She is like my own daughter," he said.

freudian slip of the century


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Aug 11, 2012)

twentythreedom said:


> Cunt's obviously a nonce anyway


 

So was Wilmott Brown


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Aug 11, 2012)

Favelado said:


> Bono still hasn't found that for which he is looking.


 
Maybe he'd have better luck if he took them fucking glasses off?


----------



## Badgers (Aug 11, 2012)

Mucky. He will do well in the big house 

Cunt - http://www.aol.co.uk/video/stuart-hazell-interview-tia-sharp-case/517439546/


----------



## yardbird (Aug 11, 2012)

Yeah - as I suggested she was in the loft.
Reported heresay on R5 just now.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 11, 2012)

yardbird said:


> Yeah - as I suggested she was in the loft.
> Reported heresay on R5 just now.


Now you've done that, can you give us some inkling of where to find the mccann girl?


----------



## Geri (Aug 11, 2012)

A police officer's blog



> _Grandmother, Christine Sharp, aged 46, living in social housing, unkempt garden, broken gas/electric meter box_


 
http://thethinkingpoliceman.blogspot.co.uk/2012/08/tia-sharp-victim-of-underclass.html

I would have thought the police would be best advised not to spout off crap like this on the internet.


----------



## bi0boy (Aug 11, 2012)

I broke my gas meter box the other week


----------



## Badgers (Aug 11, 2012)

My garden is unkempt


----------



## Geri (Aug 11, 2012)

Badgers said:


> My garden is unkempt


 
Mine too. I hate gardening.


----------



## Badgers (Aug 11, 2012)

I am also feckless and irresponsible


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 11, 2012)

Geri said:


> A police officer's blog
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I wonder if the 30 convictions information came from a newspaper or through accessing the police national computer


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 11, 2012)

Badgers said:


> I am also feckless and irresponsible


That's your card marked then


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Aug 11, 2012)

Geri said:


> Mine too. I hate gardening.


 
get butchers to mow the lawn


----------



## Badgers (Aug 11, 2012)

Pickman's model said:
			
		

> That's your card marked then



Just a matter of time


----------



## Captain Hurrah (Aug 11, 2012)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> get butchers to mow the lawn


 
In a wheelchair?


----------



## eatmorecheese (Aug 11, 2012)

This is all incredibly sad and horrific.

I'd just like to pay tribute to the residents of Fieldway, New Addington, particularly the young people who have spent the last week distributing flyers and engaging with people all over South London looking for Tia. They have demonstrated their commitment to their community and generated a real feeling of solidarity amongst local people of all ages, defying the negative stereotypes that young people in Addo are a bunch of feral, asbo collecting chavs. I've been proud to bear witness to how they organised themselves and effectively represented the whole community. They now need to be left alone to grieve, with support offered when needed.

RIP Tia


----------



## 5t3IIa (Aug 11, 2012)

bi0boy said:


> I broke my gas meter box the other week


 
Mine's also broken - the doors are very flimsy, aren't they? Plus the plastic is impossible to clean properly.


----------



## RubyToogood (Aug 11, 2012)

So the chief suspect went on the run by basically getting pissed on vodka and going to Mitcham, where he went into an offy for more vodka, and then hid in a bush on the common. It's not really a plan, is it?


----------



## kalidarkone (Aug 11, 2012)

Geri said:


> Neither would I, but some people don't appear to have any boundaries when it comes to relationships. I have a male friend whose only stipulation is that the woman is single. They could have been engaged to his best friend, but if they split up yesterday then they are fair game.


Got his no?


----------



## Geri (Aug 11, 2012)

RubyToogood said:


> So the chief suspect went on the run by basically getting pissed on vodka and going to Mitcham, where he went into an offy for more vodka, and then hid in a bush on the common. It's not really a plan, is it?


 
Genius.


----------



## Geri (Aug 11, 2012)

kalidarkone said:


> Got his no?


 
I'm sure you must know the infamous Jim Robins


----------



## kalidarkone (Aug 11, 2012)

Geri said:


> I'm sure you must know the infamous Jim Robins


 
Have heard of him-ummmm maybe not then.......


----------



## RubyToogood (Aug 11, 2012)

Actually, I'm sure it's partly down to social media that they caught him so quickly, because everyone in South London knew what he looked like without having to wait for the tv news.


----------



## _angel_ (Aug 11, 2012)

bi0boy said:


> I broke my gas meter box the other week


The door blew off mine ages ago. The Garden is slightly bedraggled as well.


----------



## _angel_ (Aug 11, 2012)

Geri said:


> A police officer's blog
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah especially since it could prejudice any trial. Haven't they got someone to arrest for not smiling at the olympics instead?


----------



## yardbird (Aug 11, 2012)

A 46 year old woman has been arrested. suspected of murder and a 30+ man arrested - helping an offender.
Gets worse


----------



## felixthecat (Aug 11, 2012)

yardbird said:


> A 46 year old woman has been arrested. suspected of murder and a 30+ man arrested - helping an offender.
> Gets worse


 
oh no.


----------



## weepiper (Aug 11, 2012)




----------



## CyberRose (Aug 11, 2012)

yardbird said:


> A 46 year old woman has been arrested. suspected of murder and a 30+ man arrested - helping an offender.
> Gets worse


I would find it strange that somebody didn't notice anything amiss during the time the body has been in the house.


----------



## Favelado (Aug 11, 2012)

No-one take this too personally. It's not a big deal really, just a ramble. Does anyone find smileys a bit inappropriate for this kind of story? With a risqué joke, you know (or at least hope) that the poster's real feelings are the opposite of the bad taste comment they are making. Smileys are sincere in their intention, yet I find them disconcerting. A little cartoon face gurning a kind of two-dimensional grief almost seems worse than a full-on Frankie Boyle joke to me.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 11, 2012)

Seriously hard to know what to think. There are two suspects and it wouldn't surprise me if this arrest of the GM is a police tactic to get at least one of them to confess. It's a wait and see moment.


----------



## CyberRose (Aug 11, 2012)

Rutita1 said:


> Seriously hard to know what to think. There are two suspects and it wouldn't surprise me if this arrest of the GM is a police tactic to get at least one of them to confess. It's a wait and see moment.


Maybe this is some kind of accident trying to be covered up rather than something more sinister?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 11, 2012)

CyberRose said:


> Maybe this is some kind of accident trying to be covered up rather than something more sinister?


 
No idea. My point was that the GM being arrested doesn't mean the police think she did it.


----------



## CyberRose (Aug 11, 2012)

http://news.sky.com/story/971313/tia-inquiry-two-more-people-arrested

Two _more _people arrested (in addition to Hazell) accorinding to Sky...


----------



## purenarcotic (Aug 11, 2012)

Bear in mind it's quite common to arrest anybody they think connected and then release as more facts come to light.


----------



## yardbird (Aug 11, 2012)

Poss scenario.
Loft access is in the ceiling of gran's bedroom.
Gran only offered limited access to her bedroom (bear in mind that no search warrants in the beginning - too intrusive in a mourners house)
It is poss that loft spaces are joined, body in _next door's loft/roof space._


----------



## bi0boy (Aug 11, 2012)

yardbird said:


> It is poss that loft spaces are joined.


 
No, it's not a Victorian house


----------



## RubyToogood (Aug 11, 2012)

yardbird said:


> Poss scenario.
> Loft access is in the ceiling of gran's bedroom.
> Gran only offered limited access to her bedroom (bear in mind that no search warrants in the beginning - too intrusive in a mourners house)
> It is poss that loft spaces are joined, body in _next door's loft/roof space._


I think this was hinted at yesterday, can't remember where - that the dividing wall between the loft spaces doesn't go all the way up.


----------



## yardbird (Aug 11, 2012)

RubyToogood said:


> I think this was hinted at yesterday, can't remember where - that the dividing wall between the loft spaces doesn't go all the way up.


Yup


----------



## D'wards (Aug 11, 2012)

I grew up 100 metres from where this happened, and my best mate at junior school lived in the same terrace, so i feel a bit connected to this really.

Living on this sort of isolated council estate does lead to a sense of strong community, which can be a blessing and a curse.


----------



## kittyP (Aug 11, 2012)

Jeeze it's all a big sad mess isn't it. 
Goodness knows what the outcome will be


----------



## AverageJoe (Aug 11, 2012)

yardbird said:


> Poss scenario.
> Loft access is in the ceiling of gran's bedroom.
> Gran only offered limited access to her bedroom (bear in mind that no search warrants in the beginning - too intrusive in a mourners house)
> It is poss that loft spaces are joined, body in _next door's loft/roof space._


 
Well, apart from Hazell and the grandmother, the other person arrested is their next door neighbour, Paul Meehan


----------



## HST (Aug 11, 2012)

Geri said:


> A police officer's blog
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If that is a "thinking policeman" I'd hate to imagine what the rest of them are like.


----------



## pocketscience (Aug 11, 2012)

Without wanting stoke the debate on the ethics of speculation and prejudice in such cases but, while watching Hazells interview, I did notice the word "WRONGUN" clearly stamped all over his face.


----------



## yardbird (Aug 11, 2012)

AverageJoe said:


> Well, apart from Hazell and the grandmother, the other person arrested is their next door neighbour, Paul Meehan


I'm afraid that I see a very unpleasant and complex picture.
May yet another be charged with murder?


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 11, 2012)

There have been arrests so the case is now sub-judice, isn't it?


----------



## kittyP (Aug 11, 2012)

So did she live with her Grandmother and Hazel? 
Where is her mother in all of this?


----------



## Stoat Boy (Aug 11, 2012)

kittyP said:


> Jeeze it's all a big sad mess isn't it.
> Goodness knows what the outcome will be


 
Yep. The poor girls 'real' Grandad turns out to be a friend of a friend and there has been a rolling whip-round over the last few days to support  him and some of his friends as they have been searching from almost as soon as it was light enough until they were using torches. Absolutely heart-breaking to think of all that desperate effort being utterly pointless.

And last night walking through the Croydon area after hearing the news about a body being discovered that poor little girs face was everywhere.

Throw in todays revelations and with a rumour mill at full force which strong indications that it could potentially get much worse (there are allegations about claims of searching for the little girl on the Friday night at a fun-fair being backed up by not only the Grandmother but also the Uncle with the implication that he is involved as well) and its all looking potentially very messy.

Now I aint going to pretend that I aint joined in with the general disaparaging of the New Addington area which is a standard joke in Croydon but there had been some real progress in that area and even its worse critics had to accept that it always had a very traditional community feel to the place in a postive way and these horrible events represent a real danger to that. Lot of ill feeling towards the Police at the moment over the failure of earlier searched  and I guess only time will tell if its justified.


----------



## killer b (Aug 11, 2012)

not 





equationgirl said:


> There have been arrests so the case is now sub-judice, isn't it?


not till they're charged. everyone should feel free to shut the fuck up anyway, if they like...


----------



## cesare (Aug 11, 2012)

D'wards said:


> I grew up 100 metres from where this happened, and my best mate at junior school lived in the same terrace, so i feel a bit connected to this really.
> 
> Living on this sort of isolated council estate does lead to a sense of strong community, which can be a blessing and a curse.



Me too. I lived the other side of the access road at 75 when I was a kid. I was just talking to my Mum but we can't remember anything much about the loft.


----------



## Geri (Aug 11, 2012)

kittyP said:


> So did she live with her Grandmother and Hazel?
> Where is her mother in all of this?


 
No, she stayed over at her grandmother's at weekends.


----------



## kittyP (Aug 11, 2012)

I think some people have made said some stupid/below the mark/distasteful things on this thread but I also think it's fairly normal to discus a serious event, no? 
More so for some people if they live or grew up near there.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 11, 2012)

CyberRose said:


> http://news.sky.com/story/971313/tia-inquiry-two-more-people-arrested
> 
> Two _more _people arrested (in addition to Hazell) accorinding to Sky...


I wonder what the final haul will be.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 11, 2012)

yardbird said:


> The dog taken in to check the property was a cadaver dog.


 
However many times I see the phrase "cadaver dog", I still get a mental image of a zombie bloodhound slavering and growling "bbbraiiinssss".


----------



## silverfish (Aug 11, 2012)

silverfish said:


> Normally whoever is doing the pleading to "come home"  on the tellybox



I told you so


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 11, 2012)

Captain Hurrah said:


> In a wheelchair?


 
It's feasible. You need a decently-powerful petrol mover, though, not one of theose Flymo pieces of shit. Put a tow-link between mower and crip-cart, and away you go with your very own motorised crip-mobile!


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 11, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> It's feasible. You need a decently-powerful petrol mover, though, not one of theose Flymo pieces of shit. Put a tow-link between mower and crip-cart, and away you go with your very own motorised crip-mobile!


Don't tell Atos!!!!!!


----------



## 1%er (Aug 11, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> It's feasible. You need a decently-powerful petrol mover, though, not one of theose Flymo pieces of shit. Put a tow-link between mower and crip-cart, and away you go with your very own motorised crip-mobile!


This sort of thing and the red hat would also look good


----------



## Geri (Aug 11, 2012)

We don't have a lawn, so it is academic.


----------



## keybored (Aug 11, 2012)

Geri said:


> A police officer's blog
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Probably why it's written anonymously.


----------



## 1%er (Aug 11, 2012)

Geri said:


> We don't have a lawn, so it is academic.


We could change the red hat for one like this


----------



## bi0boy (Aug 11, 2012)

So the police admit already that they did a massive cock-up:

Tia Sharp: Met Police admit body search error


----------



## Plumdaff (Aug 11, 2012)

Oh God, are we going to start seeing a load of piss poor articles equating all working class estates with this awfulness, like anyone who lives in social accommodation is culpable, and ignoring the community campaign to find Tia. Every article should be balanced with "Rausing - a symbol of broken Belgravia" and "Maddie - the casual fecklessness lurking in our commuter villages"


----------



## Maltin (Aug 11, 2012)

AverageJoe said:


> Well, apart from Hazell and the grandmother, the other person arrested is their next door neighbour, Paul Meehan


Presumably no relation to Craig? 

http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=cr...8I7SX0QW7lYCoCg&ved=0CFgQsAQ&biw=1024&bih=672


----------



## UrbaneFox (Aug 11, 2012)

bi0boy said:


> I broke my gas meter box the other week


 
You kept quiet about that.


----------



## kittyP (Aug 11, 2012)

Where are her mother and/or father in all this? 
I have seen very little said about them apart form reports that she is Hazel's ex.


----------



## shygirl (Aug 11, 2012)

Perhaps the child threatened to disclose something awful about the adults' behaviour towards her?  Hope not, but its possible.  Prefer to think it a tragic accident, followed by panic and cover-up.


----------



## HST (Aug 11, 2012)

Mods - I think it would be a good idea to lock/close this thread now.


----------



## UrbaneFox (Aug 11, 2012)

Maltin said:


> Presumably no relation to Craig?
> 
> http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=craig meehan&hl=en&safe=off&client=safari&tbo=u&tbm=isch&source=univ&sa=X&ei=FZAmULm8I7SX0QW7lYCoCg&ved=0CFgQsAQ&biw=1024&bih=672


 
All these crap families are related. Somehow. Fact.


----------



## Lock&Light (Aug 11, 2012)

UrbaneFox said:


> All these crap families are related. Somehow. Fact.


 
Every human being is related to all other human beings. We're even quite closely related to chimpanzees.


----------



## Dandred (Aug 11, 2012)

UrbaneFox said:


> All these crap families are related. Somehow. Fact.


Who the fuck are you related to the queen? That must be quite a shitty family to belong to...


----------



## shagnasty (Aug 11, 2012)

We will have to see how this pans out ,but arresting someone doesn,t mean they will be charged


----------



## mango5 (Aug 11, 2012)

HST said:


> Mods - I think it would be a good idea to lock/close this thread now.


Why?


----------



## twentythreedom (Aug 11, 2012)

Don't lock the thread, it's a current news story. If you don't like it don't read it


----------



## twentythreedom (Aug 11, 2012)

^@HST btw


----------



## HST (Aug 11, 2012)

twentythreedom said:


> ^@HST btw


 
Because it has become ghoulish and distasteful. That is why.


----------



## kittyP (Aug 11, 2012)

HST said:


> Because it has become ghoulish and distasteful. That is why.


 
Why don't you and OU go and have a chat on the thread he started then.


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 11, 2012)

Let you carry on being ghouls?


----------



## paulhackett (Aug 11, 2012)

HST said:


> Because it has become ghoulish and distasteful. That is why.


 
But undoubtedly less distasteful than being in a house with your dead 12 year old grand-daughter?


----------



## claphamboy (Aug 11, 2012)

HST said:


> Because it has become ghoulish and distasteful. That is why.


 
If you feel that way, stop fucking reading it. 

What a twat.


----------



## HST (Aug 11, 2012)

claphamboy said:


> If you feel that way, stop fucking reading it.
> 
> What a twat.


Some of us have standards. You clearly do not.


----------



## Fuchs66 (Aug 11, 2012)

HST said:


> Because it has become ghoulish and distasteful. That is why.


dont read it then, you ghoul.


----------



## Firky (Aug 11, 2012)

shygirl said:


> Perhaps the child threatened to disclose something awful about the adults' behaviour towards her?  Hope not, but its possible.  Prefer to think it a tragic accident, followed by panic and cover-up.



Oh fuck off.


----------



## claphamboy (Aug 11, 2012)

HST said:


> Some of us have standards. You clearly do not.


 
FFS, it's a topical news story, it's being discussed IRL, like down the pub for example, why the fuck shouldn't be be discussed on here, Mary Whitehouse?


----------



## xenon (Aug 11, 2012)

HST said:


> Because it has become ghoulish and distasteful. That is why.




Hello, hello? *taps computer* Is this the internet?

I did think the aside about keyboard Columbo earlier was funny though.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Aug 11, 2012)

pocketscience said:


> Without wanting stoke the debate on the ethics of speculation and prejudice in such cases but, while watching Hazells interview, I did notice the word "WRONGUN" clearly stamped all over his face.


 
Jo Yate's landlord?


----------



## xenon (Aug 11, 2012)

"Tragic accident followed by cover up."
:appropriate smiley:


----------



## claphamboy (Aug 11, 2012)

xenon said:


> Hello, hello? *taps computer* Is this the internet?
> 
> I did think the aside about keyboard Columbo earlier was funny though.


 
TBF, a hell of a lot of keyboard and/or pub-based Columbo's seemed to have sussed out basically what had happened days before the cops finally woke-up to it.


----------



## Numbers (Aug 11, 2012)

claphamboy said:


> TBF, a hell of a lot of keyboard and/or pub-based Columbo's seemed to have sussed out basically what had happened days before the cops finally woke-up to it.


Not really, they would have thought/known the same but just can't go saying it like us internet ghouls.


----------



## HST (Aug 11, 2012)

Fuchs66 said:


> dont read it then, you ghoul.


A child is dead and it's light entertainment?


----------



## xenon (Aug 11, 2012)

claphamboy said:


> TBF, a hell of a lot of keyboard and/or pub-based Columbo's seemed to have sussed out basically what had happened days before the cops finally woke-up to it.



Yeah but the cops can't just go on "bloke down the pub said" theorising and discount other possibilities.


----------



## krtek a houby (Aug 11, 2012)

HST said:


> A child is dead and it's light entertainment?


Sure, choose "broken Britain" or "urban75 at it's best/worst"


----------



## claphamboy (Aug 11, 2012)

Numbers said:


> Not really, they would have thought/known the same but just can't go saying it like us internet ghouls.


 
Nor bother to do a proper search, hence why they have already started eating humble pie. 

The police operation has been a major fuck-up from day one, which is seriously worrying IMO.


----------



## weltweit (Aug 11, 2012)

Imagine if the police had thought, we have searched the house a couple of times so she can't be there. It could have gone on and on.

I wonder what caused them to revisit the house when they had already searched there more than once.


----------



## Fuchs66 (Aug 11, 2012)

HST said:


> A child is dead and it's light entertainment?


Children die all the time and people will talk about the reasons and background, often before the full facts are released, that's the way societies reach a consensus.
People also deal with tragedy in different ways, some (and especially those who deal with tragedy on a regular basis) use humour to do so If you consider that light entertainment maybe it's you who has the problem?


----------



## 1927 (Aug 11, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> Now you've done that, can you give us some inkling of where to find the mccann girl?


 
Ask her parents.


----------



## claphamboy (Aug 11, 2012)

xenon said:


> Yeah but the cops can't just go on "bloke down the pub said" theorising and discount other possibilities.


 
She left home without the mobile. 

She left home without her oyster card when intending to use the bus & tram. 

Not a single bus or tram driver interviewed had seen her. 

She was not picked-up on any CCTV footage. 

It was clear that at the very least she hadn't left the estate, hence why the police focused their searches on the estate.

It also seemed highly likely that she hadn't even left the house, the police have totally fucked-up here, they have already issued an apology for fucking-up, heads will roll over this I reckon.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 11, 2012)

1927 said:


> Ask her parents.


They've been rather reticent on the subject


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 11, 2012)

claphamboy said:


> She left home without the mobile.
> 
> She left home without her oyster card when intending to use the bus & tram.
> 
> ...


sadly one already has


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 11, 2012)

Fuchs66 said:


> Children die all the time and people will talk about the reasons and background, often before the full facts are released, that's the way societies reach a consensus.


 
Consensus? I don't agree with that, it's not about agreement IMO, it's more about sharing info and feelings that are uncomfortable/puzzling.

People talk about stuff before they have the full facts because the little they do know doesn't make sense to them or it has inspired distress. Even after the 'facts' are given people will still talk about things because it still may not make sense etc.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 11, 2012)

Rutita1

you never will have the full facts

about anything

get over it


----------



## kittyP (Aug 11, 2012)

pocketscience said:


> Without wanting stoke the debate on the ethics of speculation and prejudice in such cases but, while watching Hazells interview, I did notice the word "WRONGUN" clearly stamped all over his face.


 
It's individual posts like this that I would take umbrage with. 
Not people discussing it.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 11, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> Rutita1
> 
> you never will have the full facts
> 
> ...


 
Erm? Get over what? I don't have a problem with it, I was responding to someone else. You did notice I wrote the word 'facts' like this didn't you? Why do you think I did that?


----------



## twentythreedom (Aug 11, 2012)

HST said:


> A child is dead and it's light entertainment?


You're still here?!?!


----------



## shagnasty (Aug 11, 2012)

weltweit said:


> Imagine if the police had thought, we have searched the house a couple of times so she can't be there. It could have gone on and on.
> 
> I wonder what caused them to revisit the house when they had already searched there more than once.


I suppose it,s like when you lose something you go over the same places .double checking is probablly part of the investigative process


----------



## HST (Aug 11, 2012)

twentythreedom said:


> You're still here?!?!


 
I'm hunting ghouls.


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 11, 2012)

claphamboy said:


> She left home without the mobile.
> 
> She left home without her oyster card when intending to use the bus & tram.
> 
> ...


 
It takes time to run down leads especially hundreds of hours of CCTV footage. The cadaver dog first searched on Wednesday, then again on Friday. Saying 'there's been a police fuck-up' when the full facts of the case aren't yet known is a little premature. There was an interview with a former senior investigating office who said that finding a body would depend on how well-concealed it had been, and that initial searches are more cursory than later more detailed ones (when the house is literally taken apart).

I don't doubt that once the police discovered her Oystercard and phone were left behind they looked a little more closely at her last known movements and whereabouts, and focussed on the house again.


----------



## 1927 (Aug 11, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> They've been rather reticent on the subject


 
I still dont understand why the most obvious example of child neglect played out in the media for years has never been prosecuted.


----------



## 1927 (Aug 11, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> It takes time to run down leads especially hundreds of hours of CCTV footage. The cadaver dog first searched on Wednesday, then again on Friday. Saying 'there's been a police fuck-up' when the full facts of the case aren't yet known is a little premature. There was an interview with a former senior investigating office who said that finding a body would depend on how well-concealed it had been, and that initial searches are more cursory than later more detailed ones (when the house is literally taken apart).
> 
> I don't doubt that once the police discovered her Oystercard and phone were left behind they looked a little more closely at her last known movements and whereabouts, and focussed on the house again.


 
Exactly, can you imagine the public outcry if when a child is reported missing the first thing the police did was to interrogate the parents and strip the house before pursuing other leads?


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 11, 2012)

1927 said:


> I still dont understand why the most obvious example of child neglect played out in the media for years has never been prosecuted.


If you're talking about the McCanns then I'm guessing because of the lack of conclusive evidence in the eyes of the CPS that either of them was involved in the disappearance of their daughter.


----------



## krtek a houby (Aug 11, 2012)

Somebody should do something


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 11, 2012)

1927 said:


> Exactly, can you imagine the public outcry if when a child is reported missing the first thing the police did was to interrogate the parents and strip the house before pursuing other leads?


The daily Mail circulation would be boosted through the roof.


----------



## claphamboy (Aug 11, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> Saying 'there's been a police fuck-up' when the full facts of the case aren't yet known is a little premature.


 
A little premature? The police have already issued an apology to the mother, not something the cops are known to do, especially so soon after a cock-up, they tend to try to cover-up or deny cock-ups.



> *I don't doubt that once the police discovered her Oystercard and phone were left behind* they looked a little more closely at her last known movements and whereabouts, and focussed on the house again


 
They knew that on day one.


----------



## 1927 (Aug 11, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> If you're talking about the McCanns then I'm guessing because of the lack of conclusive evidence in the eyes of the CPS that either of them was involved in the disappearance of their daughter.


 
The fact that they left her unattended is not in dispute


----------



## 1927 (Aug 11, 2012)

claphamboy said:


> A little premature? The police have already issued an apology to the mother, not something the cops are known to do, especially so soon after a cock-up, they tend to try to cover-up or deny cock-ups.
> 
> 
> 
> They knew that on day one.


 
can you imagine that apology?

Sorry we fucked up, but we didnt think that your mother was evil enough to have killed her own grand daughter.


----------



## claphamboy (Aug 11, 2012)

1927 said:


> Exactly, can you imagine the public outcry if when a child is reported missing the first thing the police did was to interrogate the parents and strip the house before pursuing other leads?


 
In view of recent case history, I think it would be most logical to interrogate the parents/grandmother/dodgy boyfriend with a string of convictions, and strip the house before wasting resources elsewhere TBH.

I wouldn't give a flying fuck about any 'public outcry' over doing the most logical thing first, it's a missing kid FFS - sod any 'public outcry', and after all any such 'public outcry' would be nothing compared with the 'public outcry' that is occurring now.


----------



## cesare (Aug 11, 2012)

claphamboy said:


> A little premature? The police have already issued an apology to the mother, not something the cops are known to do, especially so soon after a cock-up, they tend to try to cover-up or deny cock-ups.
> 
> 
> 
> They knew that on day one.



There are some places the cops aren't there all the time, tread lightly places. And when they do arrive, they're not over it like a rash.


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 11, 2012)

claphamboy said:


> A little premature? The police have already issued an apology to the mother, not something the cops are known to do, especially so soon after a cock-up, they tend to try to cover-up or deny cock-ups.


And they are still bound to track down friends, find out if she borrowed money from anyone, check CCTV footage etc.

It is unprecedented for the Met to issue such a rapid apology. Human error, they are saying, although not the details of the error itself.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-19223085
It doesn't bring her back.


----------



## kittyP (Aug 11, 2012)

claphamboy said:


> In view of recent case history, I think it would be most logical to interrogate the parents/grandmother/dodgy boyfriend with a string of convictions, and strip the house before wasting resources elsewhere TBH.
> 
> I wouldn't give a flying fuck about any 'public outcry' over doing the most logical thing first, it's a missing kid FFS - sod any 'public outcry', and after all any such 'public outcry' would be nothing compared with the 'public outcry' that is occurring now.


 
This is possibly why you are not in charge of such things.


----------



## Fuchs66 (Aug 11, 2012)

Rutita1 said:


> Consensus? I don't agree with that, it's not about agreement IMO, it's more about sharing info and feelings that are uncomfortable/puzzling.
> 
> People talk about stuff before they have the full facts because the little they do know doesn't make sense to them or it has inspired distress. Even after the 'facts' are given people will still talk about things because it still may not make sense etc.


I think reaching a consensus as a society about what is good and bad behaviour (at all levels) can only be reached by this type of discussion whether you label it as such or as speculation or gossip. It's the way society works and to ignore such events or leave them to the "professionals" is not entirely wise IMO.


----------



## agricola (Aug 11, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> It is unprecedented for the Met to issue such a rapid apology. Human error, they are saying, although not the details of the error itself.


 
It may be worth pointing out that the Met has just - within the last week - appointed a new Director of Communications.


----------



## 1927 (Aug 11, 2012)

claphamboy said:


> In view of recent case history, I think it would be most logical to interrogate the parents/grandmother/dodgy boyfriend with a string of convictions, and strip the house before wasting resources elsewhere TBH.
> 
> I wouldn't give a flying fuck about any 'public outcry' over doing the most logical thing first, it's a missing kid FFS - sod any 'public outcry', and after all any such 'public outcry' would be nothing compared with the 'public outcry' that is occurring now.


 
So if my 3 year old happened to go missing sometime soon you think it would be accepatable for the police to strip my house and search under the floorbaords while I was trying to come to terms with the fact that my sin was missing?

What a vile twat you are!


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 11, 2012)

claphamboy said:


> In view of recent case history, I think it would be most logical to interrogate the parents/grandmother/dodgy boyfriend with a string of convictions, and strip the house before wasting resources elsewhere TBH.
> 
> I wouldn't give a flying fuck about any 'public outcry' over doing the most logical thing first, it's a missing kid FFS - sod any 'public outcry', and after all any such 'public outcry' would be nothing compared with the 'public outcry' that is occurring now.


Gosh, such a judgmental attitude. Just because someone has a string of unrelated related offences you think the bill should concentrate on them, even arrest them first in the absence of evidence and _then_ check they're correct? 

Have you heard of the Teresa de Simone case? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Teresa_de_Simone


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 11, 2012)

Rutita1 said:


> Erm? Get over what? I don't have a problem with it, I was responding to someone else. You did notice I wrote the word 'facts' like this didn't you? Why do you think I did that?


Have you read your post?


----------



## paulhackett (Aug 11, 2012)

1927 said:


> So if my 3 year old happened to go missing sometime soon you think it would be accepatable for the police to strip my house and search under the floorbaords while I was trying to come to terms with the fact that my *sin* was missing?
> 
> What a vile twat you are!


 
Erm.. for typos!


----------



## cesare (Aug 11, 2012)

agricola said:


> It may be worth pointing out that the Met has just - within the last week - appointed a new Director of Communications.



Do new PR determine when an apology is issued?


----------



## Firky (Aug 11, 2012)

Facts, ffs.

The Fact is only the person(s) responsible know the facts of what happened. Does not make a difference if you put the word in quotations.

This thread is a mess.


----------



## 5t3IIa (Aug 11, 2012)

1927 said:


> So if my 3 year old happened to go missing sometime soon you think it would be accepatable for the police to strip my house and search under the floorbaords while I was trying to come to terms with the fact that my sin was missing?
> 
> What a vile twat you are!



Most kids are killed by a family member. That's science.


----------



## agricola (Aug 11, 2012)

cesare said:


> Do new PR determine when an apology is issued?


 
I wouldnt have thought so, and he isnt formally in the post yet, but its likely that he and his department would provide support to the investigating team for media strategy and whatnot. As equationgirl said, its not exactly common for the Met to do this, I just thought it was worth pointing out that there was a new person at the top of the DPA.

Its a shame DB isnt still around because he would know more about this.


----------



## pocketscience (Aug 11, 2012)

kittyP said:


> It's individual posts like this that I would take umbrage with.
> Not people discussing it.


So you take umbrage in people expressing opinions?


----------



## kittyP (Aug 11, 2012)

pocketscience said:


> So you take umbrage in people expressing opinions?


 
Ha ha. No. 
I take umbrage with the content of the opinion.


----------



## cesare (Aug 11, 2012)

agricola said:


> I wouldnt have thought so, and he isnt formally in the post yet, but its likely that he and his department would provide support to the investigating team for media strategy and whatnot. As equationgirl said, its not exactly common for the Met to do this, I just thought it was worth pointing out that there was a new person at the top of the DPA.
> 
> Its a shame DB isnt still around because he would know more about this.



If DB  was around he'd be calling people cunts, and whatever point he had would be lost.


----------



## 1927 (Aug 11, 2012)

5t3IIa said:


> Most kids are killed by a family member. That's science.


 
I dont think your stats are correct. Most kids grow up to be adults and die a natural death.


----------



## pocketscience (Aug 11, 2012)

kittyP said:


> Ha ha. No.
> I take umbrage with the content of the opinion.


Why, may I ask?



kittyP said:


> I think some people have made said some stupid/below the mark/distasteful things on this thread *but I also think it's fairly normal to discus a serious event, no*?
> *More so for some people if they live or grew up near there*.


I spent the first 18 years of my life growing up on a council estate not 5 miles away from Addington and it would be an understatement to say the place had a bit of a reputation. 
My opinions has fuck all to do with the events of the last week. It's based purely on experience.
Anyway, expressing this opinion has fuck all bearing on the outcome of any proceedings so I don't get the fuss.


----------



## Miss Caphat (Aug 11, 2012)

claphamboy said:


> In view of recent case history, I think it would be most logical to interrogate the parents/grandmother/dodgy boyfriend with a string of convictions, and strip the house before wasting resources elsewhere TBH.
> 
> I wouldn't give a flying fuck about any 'public outcry' over doing the most logical thing first, it's a missing kid FFS - sod any 'public outcry', and after all any such 'public outcry' would be nothing compared with the 'public outcry' that is occurring now.


 
one major problem: you need _evidence and a search warrant _before you can do most/all of those things. statistical data does not equal evidence, and that's a good thing! unless you're a big fan of police profiling based on race, social status, etc.


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 11, 2012)

firky said:


> Facts, ffs.
> 
> The Fact is only the person(s) responsible know the facts of what happened. Does not make a difference if you put the word in quotations.
> 
> This thread is a mess.


The fact is a 12 year old girl is dead, and at this stage that's pretty much all any of us know for certain.

I took a wander over to websleuths for perspective - they're at 48 pages (skimmed some and went ) and analysing in great detail FB posts of the grandmother. Urban is fairly sane in comparison.


----------



## shagnasty (Aug 11, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> Gosh, such a judgmental attitude. Just because someone has a string of unrelated related offences you think the bill should concentrate on them, even arrest them first in the absence of evidence and _then_ check they're correct?
> 
> Have you heard of the Teresa de Simone case? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Teresa_de_Simone


There a long list of unsafe murder verdicts ,That,s why i am against capital punishment


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 11, 2012)

shagnasty said:


> There a long list of unsafe murder verdicts ,That,s why i am against capital punishment


Me too. There's so many in the US that are exonerated after death, it's just wrong.


----------



## cesare (Aug 11, 2012)

pocketscience said:


> Why, may I ask?
> 
> 
> I spent the first 18 years of my life growing up on a council estate not 5 miles away from Addington and it would be an understatement to say the place had a bit of a reputation.
> ...



Which estate?


----------



## kittyP (Aug 11, 2012)

pocketscience said:


> Why, may I ask?
> 
> 
> I spent the first 18 years of my life growing up on a council estate not 5 miles away from Addington and it would be an understatement to say the place had a bit of a reputation.
> ...


 
I didn't mean that someone who grew up there had a more valid opinion than anyone else, just that they especially may feel the need to discuss this case. 

In terms of why I took umbrage to the content of the comment, I think that pre-judging people in the manner that he did can be damaging.


----------



## Stoat Boy (Aug 11, 2012)

Miss Caphat said:


> one major problem: you need _evidence and a search warrant _before you can do most/all of those things. statistical data does not equal evidence, and that's a good thing! unless you're a big fan of police profiling based on race, social status, etc.


 
I dont buy that at all. Its obvious that in the majority of child abuse cases on all levels then the perpertrator(s) are more than likely to be those closet to them. So therefore I would assume that if you are a Police officer in charge of investigating such things (including a child going missing) then the very first thing you need to do is assure yourself that those in whose care the child last was are in the clear. And that this would include a through search of the premises. Sure make it clear why you are doing that but if it was my child then I would want to give every assistance I could to the police so that they could elimate me as a suspect and crack on with finding the people responsible.

If parents or guardians object to such a search then that should be an indication of a potential problem.


----------



## shygirl (Aug 11, 2012)

firky said:


> Oh fuck off.


 
Eh, what did I say to merit 'fuck off'.


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 11, 2012)

shygirl said:


> Eh, what did I say to merit 'fuck off'.


Egregiously imaginative speculation, no doubt


----------



## shygirl (Aug 11, 2012)

what does 'egregiously' mean?


----------



## UrbaneFox (Aug 11, 2012)

agricola said:


> Its a shame DB isnt still around because he would know more about this.


 
Who is DB?


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 11, 2012)

shygirl said:


> what does 'egregiously' mean?


Outrageously, shockingly


----------



## agricola (Aug 11, 2012)

UrbaneFox said:


> Who is DB?


 
Former poster, and a big fan of the cambridge university netball team.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 11, 2012)

firky said:


> The Fact is only the person(s) responsible know the facts of what happened. Does not make a difference if you put the word in quotations.
> 
> .


That was my point. Whatever details/story people are given, because of the context, a suspicious death/murder of a child, they most likely will still talk and speculate because it won't/doesn't make sense, even if it is presented as 'fact'. I am not endorsing gorey speculation, but I think I understand why people do it. The case is disturbing and I understand that to deal with that people react in different ways.


----------



## shygirl (Aug 11, 2012)

Just looked it up, but thanks.  I was alluding to the possibility of a ring, given the number of possible adults being looked at (there was an earlier post implying that others were involved in concealing the child).   Is it really bad to have said that?    Genuinely confused...


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 11, 2012)

shygirl said:


> Just looked it up, but thanks. I was alluding to the possibility of a ring, given the number of possible adults being looked at (there was an earlier post implying that others were involved in concealing the child). Is it really bad to have said that? Genuinely confused...


 

The speculation (alluding to x, y or z without evidence) is what people are taken umbrage with.


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 11, 2012)

shygirl said:


> Just looked it up, but thanks.  I was alluding to the possibility of a ring, given the number of possible adults being looked at (there was an earlier post implying that others were involved in concealing the child).   Is it really bad to have said that?    Genuinely confused...


Cos speculating wildly is idiotic:
http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/armchair-detectives.297642/


----------



## UrbaneFox (Aug 11, 2012)

Is DB the one that went to live in South America? They were kissed, unexpectedly, by a teenage pupil and it may have prompted some kind of personal crisis.

Wait a minute .....


----------



## UrbaneFox (Aug 11, 2012)

weltweit said:


> Imagine if the police had thought, we have searched the house a couple of times so she can't be there. It could have gone on and on.
> 
> I wonder what caused them to revisit the house when they had already searched there more than once.


 
Groundhog Day.


----------



## shygirl (Aug 11, 2012)

Ok, poor judgement on my part.  But still confused somewhat, haven't others speculated on here, without being told to fuck off.  I'm not generally a nasty person, and feel offended that Firky reacted in that way.  Still, a child is dead, so my hurt feelings are irrelevant.  Again, sorry for posting what I did.


----------



## HST (Aug 11, 2012)

pocketscience said:


> Why, may I ask?
> 
> 
> I spent the first 18 years of my life growing up on a council estate not 5 miles away from Addington and it would be an understatement to say the place had a bit of a reputation.
> ...


Shrublands? Not sure but trying to think of an estate near Addo.


----------



## Firky (Aug 11, 2012)

shygirl said:


> Eh, what did I say to merit 'fuck off'.



Quantum speculations.


----------



## HST (Aug 11, 2012)

or selsdon


----------



## shygirl (Aug 11, 2012)

But why not say that, why tell me to fuck off?


----------



## Firky (Aug 11, 2012)

shygirl said:


> Ok, poor judgement on my part.  But still confused somewhat, haven't others speculated on here, without being told to fuck off.  I'm not generally a nasty person, and feel offended that Firky reacted in that way.  Still, a child is dead, so my hurt feelings are irrelevant.  Again, sorry for posting what I did.



Don't be offended!

Just thought it was a stupid comment for the reasons rutita gave.

Now you're making me feel bad!


----------



## scooter (Aug 11, 2012)

shygirl said:


> But why not say that, why tell me to fuck off?


 
Because some people have decided to pretend to be upset about someone they've never met. Kinda like the Diana public displays of emotion


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 11, 2012)

scooter said:


> Because some people have decided to pretend to be upset about someone they've never met. Kinda like the Diana public displays of emotion


What utter bollocks


----------



## Firky (Aug 11, 2012)

scooter said:


> Because some people have decided to pretend to be upset about someone they've never met. Kinda like the Diana public displays of emotion


 
And some people attempt to use the murder of a 12 year old girl as a vehicle to antagonise people they have never met on a forum.


----------



## UrbaneFox (Aug 11, 2012)

I don't know why I come to this thread. It shocks and disgusts me every time.


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 11, 2012)

Well i must say, this thread has suddenly become as dull as dishwater now that the post police are patrolling the premises.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Aug 11, 2012)

scooter said:


> Because some people have decided to pretend to be upset about someone they've never met. Kinda like the Diana public displays of emotion


 
No, you trumpet - All the speculation about something in which people have no involvement whatsoever, as well as all the RIP Tia stuff from people who'd never heard of her a fortnight ago plus all the eyes a-gleam, trousers a-bulge tough talk about what people would like to happen to Hazell while he's inside is what's akin to all that Diana bullshit.

E2a superb timing given the post above this one.


----------



## Firky (Aug 11, 2012)

shygirl said:


> But why not say that, why tell me to fuck off?



I am sorry.


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 11, 2012)

Frances Lengel said:


> No, you trumpet - All the speculation about something in which people have no involvement whatsoever, as well as all the RIP Tia stuff from people who'd never heard of her a fortnight ago plus all the eyes a-gleam, trousers a-bulge tough talk about what people would like to happen to Hazell while he's inside is what's akin to all that Diana bullshit.



Well piss off from the thread then if you don't like it.


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 11, 2012)

Citizen66 said:


> Well piss off from the thread then if you don't like it.


That's such a lame riposte. If you don't like what's going on, you stay and say so, you don't keep schtum and slink away.


----------



## Stoat Boy (Aug 11, 2012)

scooter said:


> Because some people have decided to pretend to be upset about someone they've never met. Kinda like the Diana public displays of emotion


 
This is a south london based forum. Now I accept that not many of you are actually originally from south london but for those of us who are then this case in particular does have more impact than usual for all sorts of reasons. Walking home last night all I could see were posters up with this poor girls face on and knowing that her body had just been found made it very upsetting. Having put in for a whip round that was organised via CPFC supporters to help support her actual Grandad who had been searching, along with a lot of his friends, for her for days then its gutting to realise that this poor mans hopes were all in vain.

I appreciate that we are meant to try and remain impartial and so on and that mass hysteria does not help anybody but the grief that many people in south london, and especiall Croydon,  are feeling today is nothing like the hysteria that followed the death of Diana. Its real, it really is.


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 11, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> That's such a lame riposte.



Still policing posts there. No change there then.


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 11, 2012)

Citizen66 said:


> Still policing posts there. No change there then.


Nonsense. Disagreeing is not policing


----------



## Frances Lengel (Aug 11, 2012)

Citizen66 said:


> Still policing posts there. No change there then.


 
There seem to be few (if any) post-policemen who discharge their duties with quite so much enthusiasm as you.


----------



## shygirl (Aug 11, 2012)

firky said:


> I am sorry.


 
Its alright, being over sensitive.


----------



## dylans (Aug 11, 2012)

scooter said:


> Because some people have decided to pretend to be upset about someone they've never met. Kinda like the Diana public displays of emotion


Anyone with a scrap of humanity and compassion doesn't have to "pretend" to be upset at the murder of a child.


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 11, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> Nonsense. Disagreeing is not policing



You didn't disagree. You said it was a lame riposte, like you're some kind of self appointed referee.

You should really read some of your stuff, if you ever find the time. It'll be theraputic if you ever need to be sent to sleep.


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 11, 2012)

Frances Lengel said:


> There seem to be few (if any) post-policemen who discharge their duties with quite so much enthusiasm as you.



What, because i'm bored with the wannabe mods already? They always did make urban a shitter experience.


----------



## HST (Aug 11, 2012)

Thank you Stoat Boy. I live in Croydon.


----------



## paulhackett (Aug 11, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> Nonsense. Disagreeing is not policing


 
Disagreeing is in fact speculating. Not in the same way but speculating nonetheless.


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 11, 2012)

paulhackett said:


> Disagreeing is in fact speculating. Not in the same way but speculating nonetheless.


How did you come up with that?


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 11, 2012)

Citizen66 said:


> You didn't disagree. You said it was a lame riposte, like you're some kind of self appointed referee.
> 
> You should really read some of your stuff, if you ever find the time. It'll be theraputic if you ever need to be sent to sleep.


Oh give over. Your criticisms of my posts could equally be leveled at yours


----------



## paulhackett (Aug 11, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> How did you come up with that?


 
If you deem someone is speculating, then you say you disagree with what they're speculating, then you must also be speculating.. unless of course you know something for a fact?


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 11, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> Oh give over. Your criticisms of my posts could equally be leveled at yours



I thought you started the other thread in order not to bog this one down with all that shit? What happened?


----------



## shygirl (Aug 11, 2012)

I've usually tried to ignore the cussing and insults that posters direct at eachother, possibly cos I haven't gotten into it much myself.  But I wonder if some of the worst offenders (and I'm not referring to you, Firky) would have the balls to say these things to people's faces.  A bit of a derail, I accept, guess I'm just thinking out loud here.


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 11, 2012)

shygirl said:


> I've usually tried to ignore the cussing and insults that posters direct at eachother, possibly cos I haven't gotten into it much myself.  But I wonder if some of the worst offenders (and I'm not referring to you, Firky) would have the balls to say these things to people's faces.  A bit of a derail, I accept, guess I'm just thinking out loud here.



I'm guessing Firky probably would.


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 11, 2012)

paulhackett said:


> If you deem someone is speculating, then you say you disagree with what they're speculating, then you must also be speculating.. unless of course you know something for a fact?


Ok perhaps not exactly disagreeing then. I was saying how shit it was to be speculating in the first place.


----------



## Miss Caphat (Aug 11, 2012)

Stoat Boy said:


> I dont buy that at all. Its obvious that in the majority of child abuse cases on all levels then the perpertrator(s) are more than likely to be those closet to them. So therefore I would assume that if you are a Police officer in charge of investigating such things (including a child going missing) then the very first thing you need to do is assure yourself that those in whose care the child last was are in the clear. And that this would include a through search of the premises. Sure make it clear why you are doing that but if it was my child then I would want to give every assistance I could to the police so that they could elimate me as a suspect and crack on with finding the people responsible.
> 
> If parents or guardians object to such a search then that should be an indication of a potential problem.


 
look, I don't know the in and outs of the laws, especially not UK ones, but yes, in most murder/mising persons cases, those closest to the victim are considered _suspects_. But getting a warrant to search someone's house or administer a polygraph is a different story, and with good reason.
These are laws that people fought for for hundred of years, they can't just throw them out because it would streamline the process in certain cases.


----------



## Firky (Aug 11, 2012)

I thought this thread was about Tia Sharp.


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 11, 2012)

Citizen66 said:


> I thought you started the other thread in order not to bog this one down with all that shit? What happened?


People keep posting crap


----------



## shygirl (Aug 11, 2012)

Citizen66 said:


> I'm guessing Firky probably would.


 
Like I said, I wasn't talking about Firky.


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 11, 2012)

shygirl said:


> Like I said, I wasn't talking about Firky.


Who then?


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 11, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> People keep posting crap



So challenge the substance of their posts? All this don't make this, that and the other kind of posts is ridiculous. If people desire more control over the content then go start a fucking blog.


----------



## shygirl (Aug 11, 2012)

Who the cap fit...let them wear it


----------



## Firky (Aug 11, 2012)

I didn't intend to start a fight but I'll gladly watch.

Actually..  I can't. Something quite distasteful in this thread and I don't like it, even an old troll like me has scruples.


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 11, 2012)

Citizen66 said:


> So challenge the substance of their posts? All this don't make this, that and the other kind of posts is ridiculous. If people want the content to be a particular kind of way then go start a fucking blog.


That's what I have been trying to do. Not very well clearly.
Not sure why you have to be so hostile. Perhaps you should follow your own advice.


----------



## Stoat Boy (Aug 11, 2012)

Miss Caphat said:


> look, I don't know the in and outs of the laws, especially not UK ones, but yes, in most murder/mising persons cases, those closest to the victim are considered _suspects_. But getting a warrant to search someone's house or administer a polygraph is a different story, and with good reason.
> These are laws that people fought for for hundred of years, they can't just throw them out because it would streamline the process in certain cases.


 
Not that familar with how it works either but I understand that once a child is offically considered a missing person then a search of their home address or where they were deemed to have left from before disapearing is done as a matter of course. Not only just for the person but also for any clues as to where or why they might have disapeared.

I aint even sure if a warrent is required and would guess in most cases the people doing the reporting would just agree on the spot to such a thing. I fully buy into this notion that the whole 'stranger danger' fear aspect can be over-played at times but there has to be a corresponding acceptence that if a loved one, and especially a child, does go missing that you will be an immediate suspect for perfectly logcial reasons and that you should co-operate fully in putting yourself in the clear so that attention can be focused elsewhere.


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 11, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> That's what I have been trying to do. Not very well clearly.
> Not sure why you have to be so hostile. Perhaps you should follow your own advice.



Probably an idea. Off to bed now any way.


----------



## DRINK? (Aug 11, 2012)

Looking at his eyes, and looking at hers, I think Hazell could be the innocent one here, for all my faults I am usually a very good judge of character and can sniff out bullshit like that.... I'm going to bed thinking the grandmother is more the suspect than him....actually feel sorry for the guy though I could be getting it totally wrong...who cares not going to change anything poor wee thing


----------



## HST (Aug 11, 2012)

A twelve year old child is dead. Can't we just show a tiny bit of respect and close this thread down?


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 11, 2012)

Another wannabe mod.  

How many kids do you think get offed in Palestine? Should we close down all the Palestine threads?


----------



## weltweit (Aug 11, 2012)

HST said:


> A twelve year old child is dead. Can't we just show a tiny bit of respect and close this thread down?


I don't get this, it is current news and people want to debate it.


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 11, 2012)

DRINK? said:


> Looking at his eyes, and looking at hers, I think Hazell could be the innocent one here, for all my faults I am usually a very good judge of character and can sniff out bullshit like that.... I'm going to bed thinking the grandmother is more the suspect than him....actually feel sorry for the guy though I could be getting it totally wrong...who cares not going to change anything poor wee thing


This is the sort of idiocy I take issue with


----------



## weltweit (Aug 11, 2012)

I thought the grandmother was away at work all the time, meaning the perpetrator had to be Stuart Hazell, is there a doubt about that?


----------



## Firky (Aug 11, 2012)

You know all this reminds me of Maddy and how her parents avoid such speculation because they wear nice clothes, are well articulated, had professional careers and composed themselves well. Of course there were some who condemned them and still do but it wasn't with the same certainty or viciousness seen here.

Now I have typed that out it sounds a load of rubbish but hey ho.


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 11, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> This is the sort of idiocy I take issue with



I think he's doing it deliberately.


----------



## Firky (Aug 11, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> This is the sort of idiocy I take issue with


 
I think he was being satirical.


----------



## HST (Aug 11, 2012)

Citizen66 said:


> Another wannabe mod.
> 
> How many kids do you think get offed in Palestine? Should we close down all the Palestine threads?


 
Yes and I write to my MP and he writes to the Foreign Office then he sends me their replies. What have you done?


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 11, 2012)

firky said:


> I think he was being satirical.




I hope so!


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 11, 2012)

HST said:


> Yes and I write to my MP and he writes to the Foreign Office then he sends me their replies. What have you done?



I've pissed and moaned about it all over the internet, demanding threads be locked.


----------



## Favelado (Aug 11, 2012)

HST said:


> A twelve year old child is dead. Can't we just show a tiny bit of respect and close this thread down?


 
There's nothing at all disrespectful about talking about it on an internet messageboard. I'm sure everyone sees it for the tragedy it is. It's human nature to talk about these things. It may be a little macabre, but so is the world at times.


----------



## HST (Aug 11, 2012)

Favelado said:


> There's nothing at all disrespectful about talking about it on an internet messageboard. I'm sure everyone sees it for the tragedy it is. It's human nature to talk about these things. It may be a little macabre, but so is the world at times.


 
I live in Croydon - it's a bit close to home.


----------



## Favelado (Aug 11, 2012)

firky said:


> You know all this reminds me of Maddy and how her parents avoid such speculation because they wear nice clothes, are well articulated, had professional careers and composed themselves well. Of course there were some who condemned them and still do but it wasn't with the same certainty or viciousness seen here.
> 
> Now I have typed that out it sounds a load of rubbish but hey ho.


 

The McCanns got absolutely panned as I remember it. It was a different type of abuse, but it was just as vehement.


----------



## scooter (Aug 11, 2012)

I live in north London but it's still London so am I allowed to be too upset to talk about it or is there a cut off point at a certain distance?


----------



## Favelado (Aug 11, 2012)

HST said:


> I live in Croydon - it's a bit close to home.


 
I think that's nonsense to be honest.


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 11, 2012)

HST said:


> I live in Croydon - it's a bit close to home.



So, rather than you avoiding a thread that is too close to home, everyone else should accommodate you and shut up about it?


----------



## HST (Aug 11, 2012)

I'm sure the Daily Mail has arranged a witchhunt which you can all join in.


----------



## Firky (Aug 11, 2012)

scooter said:


> I live in north London but it's still London so am I allowed to be too upset to talk about it or is there a cut off point at a certain distance?


 


scooter said:


> Because some people have decided to pretend to be upset about someone they've never met. Kinda like the Diana public displays of emotion


----------



## HST (Aug 11, 2012)

Favelado said:


> I think that's nonsense to be honest.


 That I live in Croydon? Wanna come round to check?


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 11, 2012)

HST said:


> I'm sure the Daily Mail has arranged a witchhunt which you can all join in.



Who has been witch hunting? I haven't. But the thread should be locked because someone else has, or might do? Logic fail.


----------



## Favelado (Aug 11, 2012)

HST said:


> That I live in Croydon? Wanna come round to check?


 
Ah no! I wasn't doubting that. I'm sure you live in Croydon. Having visited there a couple of times, I really wouldn't want to come and check either. Kind offer though.


----------



## Firky (Aug 11, 2012)

Favelado said:


> Having visited there a couple of times, I really wouldn't want to come and check either. Kind offer though.


 
 

Thats two offers, one off garf and another tonight.


----------



## HST (Aug 11, 2012)

The witchhunt is, as ever, against the lumpen proletariat but you knew that anyway.


----------



## twentythreedom (Aug 11, 2012)

OU, you're such a septic bellend, a miserable, shitty one, but you do make me laugh


----------



## HST (Aug 11, 2012)

firky said:


> Thats two offers, one off garf and another tonight.


 
We gave up cannibalism a while back.


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 11, 2012)

twentythreedom said:


> OU, you're such a septic bellend, a miserable, shitty one, but you do make me laugh


Again, why so hostile? What have I done to earn your ire?


----------



## Favelado (Aug 11, 2012)

firky said:


> Thats two offers, one off garf and another tonight.


 
I want Boppity to invite me for a drink. I've decided she will be my board crush.


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 11, 2012)

HST said:


> The witchhunt is, as ever, against the lumpen proletariat but you knew that anyway.



So if a murder is commited on a council estate and close family members are suspected of involvement, we should suspect members of the aristocracy are involved instead?


----------



## HST (Aug 11, 2012)

Citizen66 said:


> So if a murder is commited on a council estate and close family members are suspected we should suspect members of the aristocracy are involved instead?


No. A murder has taken place but that doesn't mean a whole sector of society should be held to blame. Anyone remember Jeremy Bamber? Let's all have a go at the bourgeoisie then.


----------



## Firky (Aug 11, 2012)

Favelado said:


> I want Boppity to invite me for a drink. I've decided she will be my board crush.


 

I don't know who she is, I was banned for 4 years but brought back by popular demand. In that time people have changed usernames and new people have arrived. I have lost my lecherous touch.

I need a board crush though, someone to be creepy to and stalk on facebook that kind of thing.


----------



## twentythreedom (Aug 11, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> Again, why so hostile? What have I done to earn your ire?


No ire  you're a grumpy cunt, but sometimes funny. That is all


----------



## Firky (Aug 11, 2012)

Does anyone else get all insecure when one of their posts is like, especially the ones where they're stating their opinion?

"Don't agree with me, I am a fucking idiot."

edit: wrong thread, sorry.


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 11, 2012)

HST said:


> No. A murder has taken place but that doesn't mean a whole sector of society should be held to blame. Anyone remember Jeremy Bamber? Let's all have a go at the bourgeoisie then.



You don't think the bourgeoisie get shit on here? I see you haven't made many posts in the time you've been here: 350 in 8 years. I suspect you can't have lurked much either if that's what you think.


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 11, 2012)

twentythreedom said:


> No ire  you're a grumpy cunt, but sometimes funny. That is all


I think it's fair to be grumpy about stuff like this


----------



## HST (Aug 11, 2012)

Citizen66 said:


> You don't think the bourgeoisie get shit on here? I see you haven't made many posts in the time you've been here: 350 in 8 years. I suspect you can't have lurked much either if that's what you think.


 
True - I don't come here often. It was all fields round here etc


----------



## DRINK? (Aug 11, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> This is the sort of idiocy I take issue with



Why? Just because I'd hang them on what clothes they are wearing!

Seriously though....looking at all interviews etc I do have a strong feeling the drug dealing machete guy is innocent ...personal opinin though If ever you want to pin something on someone use someone with a long charge sheet


----------



## HST (Aug 11, 2012)

Thought i answered this already. No, i don't live here. It would be really sad if I did. Point I was trying to make is that this tragic death is going to be used by the tabloid press (aka The Daily Mail) to attack the lumpen proles who are by and large harmless individuals. The reference to Jeremy Bamber was to a nasty bourgeois murderer. I'm not saying all bourgeoisie are murdering scum but neither are all the lumpens. I think we can agree on that.


----------



## UrbaneFox (Aug 11, 2012)

firky said:


> I need a board crush though, someone to be creepy to and stalk on facebook that kind of thing.


 

At your service <bouquet>


----------



## pocketscience (Aug 11, 2012)

HST said:


> Shrublands? Not sure but trying to think of an estate near Addo.





cesare said:


> Which estate?


Downham


----------



## HST (Aug 11, 2012)

That's nearly Bromley.


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 11, 2012)

And Catford.


----------



## pocketscience (Aug 11, 2012)

Lewisham borough. An overspill of Bermondsey & Deptford.


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 12, 2012)

HST said:


> No. A murder has taken place but that doesn't mean a whole sector of society should be held to blame. Anyone remember Jeremy Bamber? Let's all have a go at the bourgeoisie then.


Yes, and he was guilty iirc. Quick check - yes, he was guilty - he tried to blame his sister but the evidence showed it was him and he was convicted. Not sure what point you were trying to make by referencing Bamber, to be honest, other than he was the son of a farmer.


----------



## D'wards (Aug 12, 2012)

cesare said:


> Me too. I lived the other side of the access road at 75 when I was a kid. I was just talking to my Mum but we can't remember anything much about the loft.


 
On Fieldway? i lived on Merrow Way, i was born in 74, went to Caste Hill then Ashburton - did we ever cross paths?


----------



## keybored (Aug 12, 2012)

HST said:


> No. A murder has taken place but that doesn't mean a whole sector of society should be held to blame. Anyone remember Jeremy Bamber? Let's all have a go at the bourgeoisie then.


Yeah I remember that case quite well. How the fuck are you drawing comparisons?


----------



## pocketscience (Aug 12, 2012)

the question is _why_.
... but anyway, his comparison was between lumpen proles and the bourgeoisie iirc


----------



## cesare (Aug 12, 2012)

D'wards said:


> On Fieldway? i lived on Merrow Way, i was born in 74, went to Caste Hill then Ashburton - did we ever cross paths?


The Lindens, yes just off Fieldway. I was living there when you were born, but we moved to SE London in 75/76. A fair few of my friends went to Ashburton, but I ended up in Haling Manor which was a hell of a bloody journey from New Addington


----------



## spliff (Aug 12, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> Yes, and he was guilty iirc. Quick check - yes, he was guilty - he tried to blame his sister but the evidence showed it was him and he was convicted. Not sure what point you were trying to make by referencing Bamber, to be honest, other than he was the son of a farmer.


I've never been totally convinced of Bamber's guilt. Rich or poor, look at the evidence.


----------



## cesare (Aug 12, 2012)

Brian Whelan's just tweeted that Hazell's been charged.


----------



## 1927 (Aug 12, 2012)

DRINK? said:


> Why? Just because I'd hang them on what clothes they are wearing!
> 
> Seriously though....looking at all interviews etc I do have a strong feeling the drug dealing machete guy is innocent ...personal opinin though If ever you want to pin something on someone use someone with a long charge sheet


 
this is a pisstake surely?


----------



## killer b (Aug 12, 2012)

Seems to be about as well considered and evidence-based as most of the other posts on the thread.


----------



## 1927 (Aug 12, 2012)

killer b said:


> Seems to be about as well considered and evidence-based as most of the other posts on the thread.


 
???


----------



## Lazy Llama (Aug 12, 2012)

Reminder of the sub judice and contempt of court laws:
http://www.out-law.com/page-9742

Specifically:
Criminal proceedings are deemed active once a person is arrested, a warrant for arrest has been issued, a summons has been issued or a person has been charged and remain active until conviction. 
Accordingly, any of the following activities could be considered to be contempt:

anticipating the course of a trial or predicting the outcome; or
...
reporting on the defendant's previous convictions;
...


----------



## Badgers (Aug 12, 2012)

On Saturday Scotland Yard apologised to Tia's mother, Natalie, from Mitcham in Surrey, over the time it took to find the body at Ms Sharp's house, blaming "human error".

The body was discovered after three earlier searches. Police admitted the body should have been found last Sunday.


----------



## claphamboy (Aug 12, 2012)

1927 said:


> claphamboy said:
> 
> 
> > In view of recent case history, I think it would be most logical to interrogate the parents/grandmother/dodgy boyfriend with a string of convictions, and strip the house before wasting resources elsewhere TBH.
> ...


 
The use of the word 'strip' is perhaps not the best word, it was one IIRC that you introduced first and I repeated, we don't know the exact circumstances of how they missed the body on pervious searches and where it was hidden, so it's pointless going down that line.

My point was yes do a proper search of the house first, before anything else, that's common sense. When something goes missing, people tend to start searching from the point where they remember last seeing it, the same logic applies if a person goes missing.

Certainly a search should have included, for example, the loft area as the missing girl could just have been hiding, I am not sure it would be reasonable to start ripping-up floorboards on day one, but that would very much depend on circumstances and what 'pointers' there were.

In this case there was loads of 'pointers' to the fact that the poor girl hadn't left the area, and as it appears now not even left the house, so yes at that point things like ripping up floorboards becomes more reasonable, because as Stoat Boy pointed out it's a case of eliminating suspects....



Stoat Boy said:


> I dont buy that at all. Its obvious that in the majority of child abuse cases on all levels then the perpertrator(s) are more than likely to be those closet to them. So therefore I would assume that if you are a Police officer in charge of investigating such things (including a child going missing) then the very first thing you need to do is assure yourself that those in whose care the child last was are in the clear. And that this would include a through search of the premises. Sure make it clear why you are doing that but if it was my child then I would want to give every assistance I could to the police so that they could elimate me as a suspect and crack on with finding the people responsible.
> 
> If parents or guardians object to such a search then that should be an indication of a potential problem.


 


Stoat Boy said:


> Not that familar with how it works either but I understand that once a child is offically considered a missing person then a search of their home address or where they were deemed to have left from before disapearing is done as a matter of course. Not only just for the person but also for any clues as to where or why they might have disapeared.
> 
> I aint even sure if a warrent is required and would guess in most cases the people doing the reporting would just agree on the spot to such a thing. I fully buy into this notion that the whole 'stranger danger' fear aspect can be over-played at times but there has to be a corresponding acceptence that if a loved one, and especially a child, does go missing that you will be an immediate suspect for perfectly logcial reasons and that you should co-operate fully in putting yourself in the clear so that attention can be focused elsewhere.


 
On reflection I am a bit puzzled by the suggestion there would be a 'public outcry' over whatever search the police deemed necessary, as (a) it's the logical thing to do, (b) it's common in such circumstances, and (c) they had already carried out searches and I am not aware of any 'public outcry'.

The issue seems to be to what level the searches were carried out in conjunction with the timeline of the 'pointers' becoming available, and that brings me back to my main point which is the police fucked-up here IMO.

I stand by that point, especially since first coming to that conclusion the police have issued an apology, and confirmed errors were made, and I've since seen an interview with a retired former senior copper that has expressed exactly the same opinion.


----------



## claphamboy (Aug 12, 2012)

Badgers said:


> On Saturday Scotland Yard apologised to Tia's mother, Natalie, from Mitcham in Surrey, over the time it took to find the body at Ms Sharp's house, blaming "human error".
> 
> The body was discovered after three earlier searches. Police admitted the body should have been found last Sunday.


 
There's a 'not' missing from that last line of that BBC report.

Interesting that they now admit the body should have been found almost a week before, all very strange.


----------



## DRINK? (Aug 12, 2012)

1927 said:


> this is a pisstake surely?


 
Nope though was pissed and came out wrong not
The police pinning, the grandma. She kills the kid the boyfriend is going to be the automatic suspect. Tis irrelevant anyway, looks like he has been charged... Goes back to watching morse


----------



## High Voltage (Aug 12, 2012)

Surely they way around whether to search or not could simply be put into standard operating procedures. Kid goes missing house, garden, cars etc automatically searched for clues and to remove from further investigation. But a thorough search done to pre determined criteria. It would take a lot of the emotion out of a very emotionally charged situation.


----------



## Voley (Aug 12, 2012)

DRINK? said:


> Nope though was pissed and came out wrong not
> The police pinning, the grandma. She kills the kid the boyfriend is going to be the automatic suspect. Tis irrelevant anyway, looks like he has been charged... Goes back to watching morse


DRINK?'s powers of deduction are legendary. With him on the case we'll have a conviction within hours.


----------



## paulhackett (Aug 12, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> Yes, and he was guilty iirc. Quick check - yes, he was guilty - he tried to blame his sister but the evidence showed it was him and he was convicted. Not sure what point you were trying to make by referencing Bamber, to be honest, other than he was the son of a farmer.


 
Apparently 16% of US serial killers (yes, I know he's UK) were adopted. 2% of the US population is adopted. The link apparently extends to the UK. Bamber, guilty or not, was adopted.


----------



## mango5 (Aug 12, 2012)

firky said:


> ... I was banned for 4 years but brought back by popular demand...


Not true. You were allowed back under the 'Saamnesty' along with a number of other long-banned posters who knew and loved Saam, and wanted to express that on here.


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 12, 2012)

paulhackett said:


> Apparently 16% of US serial killers (yes, I know he's UK) were adopted. 2% of the US population is adopted. The link apparently extends to the UK. Bamber, guilty or not, was adopted.



Bamber isn't a serial killer.


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 12, 2012)

HST said:


> No. A murder has taken place but that doesn't mean a whole sector of society should be held to blame. Anyone remember Jeremy Bamber? Let's all have a go at the bourgeoisie then.



Farmers tend to be petit bourgeois.


----------



## paulhackett (Aug 12, 2012)

Citizen66 said:


> Bamber isn't a serial killer.


 
I wasn't saying he was, although he is a multiple killer.

I was adding detail to the comment on Bamber, and arguably the argument that people who are or have been vulnerably housed are more likely to be victims of or commit crime.


----------



## RubyToogood (Aug 12, 2012)

scooter said:


> Because some people have decided to pretend to be upset about someone they've never met. Kinda like the Diana public displays of emotion


I don't know why you'd think it was pretence in either instance. You might not understand why people would feel that way but for the most part I don't think people are pretending. The public were involved in the hunt and consequently people feel invested in the outcome.


----------



## Geri (Aug 12, 2012)

paulhackett said:


> Apparently 16% of US serial killers (yes, I know he's UK) were adopted. 2% of the US population is adopted. The link apparently extends to the UK. Bamber, guilty or not, was adopted.


 
That's interesting. My ex-penfriend, who is a serial killer, was also adopted (he's American).


----------



## ice-is-forming (Aug 12, 2012)

Geri said:


> That's interesting. My ex-penfriend, who is a serial killer, was also adopted (he's American).


 
i was told at work last week that 98% of prisoners on death row had significantly traumatic childhoods


----------



## HST (Aug 12, 2012)

98% sounds a bit high but I guess if you look for trauma you'll find it.


----------



## Firky (Aug 12, 2012)

mango5 said:


> Not true. You were allowed back under the 'Saamnesty' along with a number of other long-banned posters who knew and loved Saam, and wanted to express that on here.



Actually I can't be Arse to explain things to a bulbous faced child, you're obviously still dumb.


----------



## claphamboy (Aug 12, 2012)

Uncalled for.


----------



## Firky (Aug 12, 2012)

I can go into my reasons but this is not the thread for it. Besides which it is too dumb.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Aug 12, 2012)

Citizen66 said:


> What, because i'm bored with the wannabe mods already? They always did make urban a shitter experience.


 
In instructing people whose opinions you disagree with to piss off from the thread, aren't you setting yourself up as a wannabe mod? Looks that way to me - If the cap fits & all that - Especially if it's cone shaped and has a big letter D painted on it.


----------



## kittyP (Aug 12, 2012)

ice-is-forming said:


> i was told at work last week that 98% of prisoners on death row had significantly traumatic childhoods


 
I would not have thought that is particularly surprising. 
If someone is guilty of something that is serious enough to get them on to death row, I would imagine there are few cases where they had an idyllic up bringing


----------



## ice-is-forming (Aug 12, 2012)

kittyP said:


> I would not have thought that is particularly surprising.
> If someone is guilty of something that is serious enough to get them on to death row, I would imagine there are few cases where they had an idyllic up bringing


 
i wasn't surprised


----------



## Corax (Aug 12, 2012)

kittyP said:


> I would not have thought that is particularly surprising.
> If someone is guilty of something that is serious enough to get them on to death row, I would imagine there are few cases where they had an idyllic up bringing


Indeed. Which is the kind of reason why I'm unconvinced of the morality of 'punishing' criminal behaviour*. I have a sneaking suspicion that all of it is a manifestation of MH issues, and the enlightened response would instead be treatment.

*I mean harming other people etc, not petty rule-breaking or ignoring state legislation that the person disagrees with.


----------



## kittyP (Aug 12, 2012)

Corax said:


> Indeed. Which is the kind of reason why I'm unconvinced of the morality of 'punishing' criminal behaviour*. I have a sneaking suspicion that all of it is a manifestation of MH issues, and the enlightened response would instead be treatment.
> 
> *I mean harming other people etc, not petty rule-breaking or ignoring state legislation that the person disagrees with.


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 12, 2012)

Corax said:


> Indeed. Which is the kind of reason why I'm unconvinced of the morality of 'punishing' criminal behaviour*. I have a sneaking suspicion that all of it is a manifestation of MH issues, and the enlightened response would instead be treatment.
> 
> *I mean harming other people etc, not petty rule-breaking or ignoring state legislation that the person disagrees with.


An interesting view, Corax, but in for examples the cases of Peter Tobin and Ian Brady & Myra Hindley all were found guilty and none were deemed ro be mentally ill at the time of the trial. Brady was found criminally insane nearly 20 years later.


----------



## Corax (Aug 12, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> An interesting view, Corax, but in for examples the cases of Peter Tobin and Ian Brady & Myra Hindley all were found guilty and none were deemed ro be mentally ill at the time of the trial. Brady was found criminally insane nearly 20 years later.


"Deemed" is the key word there. I've worked in MH for a bit, and it's a very inexact science. In its current form I'd hesitate to describe it as 'science' at all tbh.

ETA: In my opinion (which is as subjective as the professional's I admit) the capacity for empathy, self-control under reasonable stress, etc, are hallmarks of a fully functioning mind.  These crimes all indicate the failure of one or more of those functions, thus indicating that there is something going wrong in the thought processes of the individual.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 12, 2012)

It's not an art tho


----------



## Geri (Aug 12, 2012)

Corax said:


> I've worked in MH for a bit, and it's a very inexact science. .


 
In what capacity and for how long?


----------



## Corax (Aug 12, 2012)

Geri said:


> In what capacity and for how long?


Providing 24 hour support to a group of schizophrenic residential patients, as a low-grade worker, for just over a year.

I'm not setting myself up as an expert authority - I put that in to demonstrate that I've seen the working of MH professionals first-hand.  I also did a lot of self-education at the time, because I was interested, and because I wanted to be able to support my clients well.


----------



## kittyP (Aug 12, 2012)

Corax said:


> "Deemed" is the key word there. I've worked in MH for a bit, and it's a very inexact science. In its current form I'd hesitate to describe it as 'science' at all tbh.
> 
> ETA: In my opinion (which is as subjective as the professional's I admit) the capacity for empathy, self-control under reasonable stress, etc, are hallmarks of a fully functioning mind. These crimes all indicate the failure of one or more of those functions, thus indicating that there is something going wrong in the thought processes of the individual.


 
I agree but how you functionally work that in to a justice system? I'll be fucked if I know.


----------



## ice-is-forming (Aug 12, 2012)

kittyP said:


> I agree but how you functionally work that in to a justice system? I'll be fucked if I know.


 
its a cycle of abuse that needs to stop but people are going to keep getting hurt until its stopped, i hope that with intervention, recognition of causes, changes in the community and correct and fitting treatment/management it will eventually slow down and stop, its not going to happen overnight.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 12, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> This is the sort of idiocy I take issue with


 
TBF it's DRINK! posting. 90% of his posts contain similar offensive idiocy. Why expect anything different?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 12, 2012)

weltweit said:


> I thought the grandmother was away at work all the time, meaning the perpetrator had to be Stuart Hazell, is there a doubt about that?


 
It's difficult to establish *who*, until when (time of death) and how (cause of death) are established.


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 12, 2012)

Grandmother and neighbour have been bailed.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 12, 2012)

Citizen66 said:


> So if a murder is commited on a council estate and close family members are suspected of involvement, we should suspect members of the aristocracy are involved instead?


 
No, but we *should* kill a few aristos _pour encourager les autres_ anyway. It's the only way to be sure.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 12, 2012)

HST said:


> No. A murder has taken place but that doesn't mean a whole sector of society should be held to blame. Anyone remember Jeremy Bamber? Let's all have a go at the bourgeoisie then.


 
I don't need to remember Jeremy Bamber to have a go at the _bourgeoisie_. Their crimes are so multitudinous as to render persecuting them for a single murder redundant.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 12, 2012)

Citizen66 said:


> Bamber isn't a serial killer.


 
True, he's what the literature calls a "spree killer" or "mass murderer".


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 12, 2012)

kittyP said:


> I would not have thought that is particularly surprising.
> If someone is guilty of something that is serious enough to get them on to death row, I would imagine there are few cases where they had an idyllic up bringing


 
It's difficult to establish a decent bassline other than "more had a foul childhood than didn't" though, because the same protocols and methodologies aren't applied to each piece of research. For example, some pieces of research may base their data on a thorough documentary investigation of the life-history of each inmate in a particular state's death row, whereas others may be more based around asking the inmate for data. As you can imagine, results will differ.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 12, 2012)

Corax said:


> Indeed. Which is the kind of reason why I'm unconvinced of the morality of 'punishing' criminal behaviour*. I have a sneaking suspicion that all of it is a manifestation of MH issues, and the enlightened response would instead be treatment.
> 
> *I mean harming other people etc, not petty rule-breaking or ignoring state legislation that the person disagrees with.


 
I wouldn't go anywhere near as far as "all of it", but *if* within your "MH issues" you include "untreatable personality disorders that predispose toward violent behaviour", than a significant amount, even a majority of repeat offending is covered by it.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 12, 2012)

kittyP said:


>


 
Is that a can of garden worms or marrowfat processed worms?


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 12, 2012)

firky said:


> Actually I can't be Arse to explain things to a bulbous faced child, you're obviously still dumb.


Bulbous faced?


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 12, 2012)

Frances Lengel said:


> In instructing people whose opinions you disagree with to piss off from the thread, aren't you setting yourself up as a wannabe mod? Looks that way to me - If the cap fits & all that - Especially if it's cone shaped and has a big letter D painted on it.



If you confuse a suggestion with an instruction then the dunce cap is yours, I'm sorry to say.


----------



## kittyP (Aug 12, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> Bulbous faced?


 
I wouldn't get involved


----------



## claphamboy (Aug 12, 2012)

firky said:


> I can go into my reasons but this is not the thread for it. Besides which it is too dumb.


 
Nice edit, I wish I had quoted you now, what you posted was bang out of order, and you know it,  you can make whatever excuses you like, but....


----------



## Firky (Aug 12, 2012)

claphamboy said:


> Nice edit, I wish I had quoted you now, what you posted was bang out of order, and you know it, you can make whatever excuses you like, but....


 

I will quite happily say it again but not on this thread.  Go and start a thread on it if you like and I will write it out again.


----------



## mango5 (Aug 12, 2012)

No need, dear man. I saw it too.


----------



## grit (Aug 12, 2012)

Favelado said:
			
		

> The McCanns got absolutely panned as I remember it. It was a different type of abuse, but it was just as vehement.



I think it was actually worse in some respects


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 12, 2012)

grit said:


> I think it was actually worse in some respects



She disappeared two years before you joined here...


----------



## grit (Aug 12, 2012)

Citizen66 said:


> She disappeared two years before you joined here...


 
I was speaking about how they were received by the media, and how I heard them spoken of anecdotally. Sorry wasnt referring precisely to the urban response


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 12, 2012)

grit said:


> I was speaking about how they were received by the media, and how I heard them spoken of anecdotally. Sorry wasnt referring precisely to the urban response



Ah right, wires crossed. I think initially they got quite a good hearing in the media; certainly compared to how proles in that position (child neglect) would generally fare. But their campaign to keep Maddie in the spotlight in order to find her also kept themselves in the spotlight and inevitably with more column inches to fill some writers (and readers) eventually turned on them.

They got crap on urban from the outset because they got the initial fair hearing that proles wouldn't have got.


----------



## Lock&Light (Aug 12, 2012)

Citizen66 said:


> They got crap on urban from the outset because they got the initial fair hearing that proles wouldn't have got.


 
There's no excuse for that.


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 12, 2012)

Lock&Light said:


> There's no excuse for that.


 
There's no excuse for proles getting crap either. But they do. You know, proles would have been tenants swigging, gas meter destroying, child ignoring layabouts. The McCanns were doctors. So they made a stupid mistake that all nice middle class people might make.

Any way, let's not go over old ground.


----------



## HST (Aug 12, 2012)

Citizen66 said:


> There's no excuse for proles getting crap either. But they do. You know, proles would have been tenants swigging, gas meter destroying, child ignoring layabouts. The McCanns were doctors. So they made a stupid mistake that all nice middle class people might make.
> 
> Any way, let's not go over old ground.


 
Ah, but the McCanns were Scousers.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 12, 2012)

HST said:


> Ah, but the McCanns were Scousers.


----------



## HST (Aug 12, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


>




I expected better.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 12, 2012)

HST said:


> I expected better.


i don't know why, this is urban.


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 12, 2012)

HST said:


> Ah, but the McCanns were Scousers.


The husband is Scottish, iirc.


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 12, 2012)

HST said:


> Ah, but the McCanns were Scousers.


 
They were _nice_ scousers. And as equationgirl rightly points out, Gerry was Scottish.


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 13, 2012)

The mcanns doped that kid but overdosed it then went out for tapas, when they got back maddie was dead so they disposed of all the evidence. We all know thi to be true.

Except my mates MIL who claims she was sold into 'white slavery' which is obviously a million times worse than any other kind of slavery. Quod Erat Demonstrandum- look ma, pig latin on the internets


----------



## Stanley Edwards (Aug 13, 2012)

DotCommunist said:


> The mcanns doped that kid but overdosed it then went out for tapas...


 
Whether you're joking, or not, I seem to remember some report of sleeping aids used, and the initial suspicion was that she had died in the bedroom.

However, there was a demonstration in Granada not so long ago about missing babies, or babies that went missing from hospitals. The research I did myself often suggested that babies were 'sold' with the mothers consent and reported as dying during childbirth (all legalities sealed through corrupt medical staff). It seems to be accepted that an illicit trade of children even from within hospitals did, or does happen.

In France I was shocked at the number of under 12's who go missing every year. Especially in Paris.

Irrelevant to this thread mind.


----------



## Miss Caphat (Aug 13, 2012)

Stanley Edwards said:


> Whether you're joking, or not, I seem to remember some report of sleeping aids used, and the initial suspicion was that she had died in the bedroom.
> 
> However, there was a demonstration in Granada not so long ago about missing babies, or babies that went missing from hospitals. The research I did myself often suggested that babies were 'sold' with the mothers consent and reported as dying during childbirth (all legalities sealed through corrupt medical staff). It seems to be accepted that an illicit trade of children even from within hospitals did, or does happen.
> 
> ...


 
it's a huge number in the UK too, something like one every 3 minutes.


----------



## Favelado (Aug 13, 2012)

Stanley Edwards said:


> Whether you're joking, or not, I seem to remember some report of sleeping aids used, and the initial suspicion was that she had died in the bedroom.
> 
> However, there was a demonstration in *Granada* not so long ago about missing babies, or babies that went missing from hospitals. The research I did myself often suggested that babies were 'sold' with the mothers consent and reported as dying during childbirth (all legalities sealed through corrupt medical staff). It seems to be accepted that an illicit trade of children even from within hospitals did, or does happen.
> 
> ...


 
The TV region? We haven't declared independence yet, but our day will come.


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 13, 2012)

Miss Caphat said:


> it's a huge number in the UK too, something like one every 3 minutes.



I'm sure children go missing more often than that. But is it really that often that children go missing for a length of time that the police have to get involved?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Aug 13, 2012)

Citizen66 said:


> I'm sure children go missing more often than that. But is it really that often that children go missing for a length of time that the police have to get involved?


 

My daughter went missing yesterday, we found her reading in her bedroom.


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 13, 2012)

Exactly.


----------



## Plumdaff (Aug 13, 2012)

It's also the reason why the police don't steam in ripping up floorboards straight away. It'd be a bit embarrassing in the 99% of cases where the kid's in the garden / round their mates //in the park etc


----------



## weltweit (Aug 13, 2012)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-19240104


> ... Meanwhile, it has emerged the body was found in a black bed sheet in a black bag in the loft of the house.


----------



## UrbaneFox (Aug 13, 2012)

lagtbd said:


> It's also the reason why the police don't steam in ripping up floorboards straight away. It'd be a bit embarrassing in the 99% of cases where the kid's in the garden / round their mates //in the park etc


 
Although if the house needs redecorating and you can't afford new carpets it's worth bearing in mind.


----------



## Miss Caphat (Aug 13, 2012)

Citizen66 said:


> I'm sure children go missing more often than that. But is it really that often that children go missing for a length of time that the police have to get involved?


 


I'm pretty sure those figures _are_ from police reports.

eta, yes, many end up coming home. but still, it's a lot of kids who don't, just like in the US and Europe.


----------



## weltweit (Aug 13, 2012)

Awful the thoughts that go through your head when your child goes missing. Mine cycled on ahead of me once on the way back from the park, when I got to the house he was not there. I started searching and retraced my steps, asking people that I met but no joy, after half an hour of searching I was really close to dialling 999...


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 13, 2012)

Miss Caphat said:


> I'm pretty sure those figures _are_ from police reports.
> 
> eta, yes, many end up coming home. but still, it's a lot of kids who don't, just like in the US and Europe.



My point was you didn't give any kind of context to that figure. And the figure may be quite meaningless depending on what the context of it is. On one end of the spectrum it could be we live in a society filled with child snatchers and I'm ignorant as to the extent of the problem. At the other it could be we live in a society of over-panicky parents who involve the police if their child happens to be ten minutes late home from wherever. It wasn't meant to be a dig, but more information is needed.

I assume it's reported missing. Which incorporates all of the above.


----------



## Firky (Aug 13, 2012)

Kids should carry guns to keep nonces away. </pbman>


----------



## agricola (Aug 13, 2012)

firky said:


> Kids should carry guns to keep nonces away. </pbman>


 
they would need training to hit a moving target though


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 13, 2012)

agricola said:


> they would need training to hit a moving target though


That's what IED's are for.


----------



## hegley (Aug 13, 2012)

Miss Caphat said:


> I'm pretty sure those figures _are_ from police reports.
> 
> eta, yes, many end up coming home. but still, it's a lot of kids who don't, just like in the US and Europe.


But that "one every 3 minutes" is under 18s, not under 12s.


----------



## existentialist (May 7, 2013)

So, the case begins.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/may/07/tia-sharp-death-sexual-assault

It's a bit depressing, having two high-profile child killing cases on at the same time


----------



## Ranbay (May 7, 2013)

read about it on the Dail Fail..... not pleseant reading at all


----------



## agricola (May 7, 2013)

existentialist said:


> It's a bit depressing, having two high-profile child killing cases on at the same time


 
Old Bailey vs Mold CC must have been a hard choice for the hacks - on the one hand London with all its convienience, fame, wealth and distractions; on the other Hulsons and the finest pork pies in the world.


----------



## existentialist (May 7, 2013)

agricola said:


> Old Bailey vs Mold CC must have been a hard choice for the hacks - on the one hand London with all its convienience, fame, wealth and distractions; on the other Hulsons and the finest pork pies in the world.


Perhaps they found a vegetarian reporter to send to Mold


----------



## Ranbay (May 13, 2013)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-22510649

Tia Sharp murder trial: Stuart Hazell pleads guilty


----------



## Metal Malcolm (May 13, 2013)

> The letter was headed with the words "forgive me" and a picture of a sad face.
> The letter read: "What happened I will explain in time, but put it this way, it was an accident and I panicked.
> "Stupid I know but for my stupidity I'm looking at 15 to 18 years. I regret it every second of every day."


 
a) Really? He puts a  in his letter?
b) So he regrets being caught, not the murder of a 12 year old girl? Fucking sociopath...


----------



## existentialist (May 13, 2013)

B0B2oo9 said:


> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-22510649
> 
> Tia Sharp murder trial: Stuart Hazell pleads guilty


Christ, he left that a bit late.

I suppose some credence has to be given to his incredibly-late-in-the-day fit of conscience and caring for others (hem hem hem), but it looks like he just pleading guilty to the murder, not the sexual assault? I wonder if he's trying to mitigate the consequences to himself of further revelations of depravity along the lines of what the prosecution have already come up with?

Or does he have some kind of warped idea that, in pleading guilty, he's making some kind of heroic and noble gesture? It's pretty hard to view anything he has done in a sympathetic light. Ugh.


----------



## existentialist (May 13, 2013)

Metal Malcolm said:


> a) Really? He puts a  in his letter?
> b) So he regrets being caught, not the murder of a 12 year old girl? Fucking sociopath...


I suspect he didn't realise that was the implication of what he said. Which it is. In spades.

I don't celebrate the whole thing of people getting extrajudicially punished in prison by other inmates, but something tells me that Hazell has probably painted about as bad a picture of himself as it is possible to do, and that he's going to get a very hard time indeed. The whole thing is tragically depressing.

ETA, and not just the murder of "a 12 year old", but the murder of a child who apparently doted on him, and to whom he owed some kind of duty of care.


----------



## TopCat (May 14, 2013)

What a horrible bloke.


----------



## Gingerman (May 14, 2013)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-22513711
38 years


----------



## existentialist (May 14, 2013)

Gingerman said:


> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-22513711
> 38 years


Well, 38 years before he can be considered for release on licence (just to head off the "...but he'll be out in half of that" position) 

I think the difference between 38 years and a whole life tariff is pretty academic, but it must be galling for Tia Sharp's family that, on the basis of the judge's remarks, he's effectively "got away with" the sexual assault element of the charges by pleading guilty at this late stage in the proceedings - I wonder why it was not possible to continue to prosecute those?


----------



## DexterTCN (May 14, 2013)

existentialist said:


> Well, 38 years before he can be considered for release on licence (just to head off the "...but he'll be out in half of that" position)
> 
> I think the difference between 38 years and a whole life tariff is pretty academic, but it must be galling for Tia Sharp's family that, on the basis of the judge's remarks, he's effectively "got away with" the sexual assault element of the charges by pleading guilty at this late stage in the proceedings - I wonder why it was not possible to continue to prosecute those?


Most murderers serve 8 years, usually, don't they?

I think the judge has added on time for the sex assault,  38 years is just fine imo.


----------



## Teaboy (May 14, 2013)

existentialist said:


> Well, 38 years before he can be considered for release on licence (just to head off the "...but he'll be out in half of that" position)
> 
> I think the difference between 38 years and a whole life tariff is pretty academic, but it must be galling for Tia Sharp's family that, on the basis of the judge's remarks, he's effectively "got away with" the sexual assault element of the charges by pleading guilty at this late stage in the proceedings - I wonder why it was not possible to continue to prosecute those?


 
The greater crime superceads the lesser crime I guess.  What would be the point of prosecuting the sex offences when he's already pleaded guilty to something worse? 

It looks like a very long sentence to me given a lot of life tariffs are only around 15-20 years, I don't see that the judge has cut him any slack at all.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 14, 2013)

existentialist said:


> Well, 38 years before he can be considered for release on licence (just to head off the "...but he'll be out in half of that" position)
> 
> I think the difference between 38 years and a whole life tariff is pretty academic, but it must be galling for Tia Sharp's family that, on the basis of the judge's remarks, he's effectively "got away with" the sexual assault element of the charges by pleading guilty at this late stage in the proceedings - I wonder why it was not possible to continue to prosecute those?


given there is only one sentence for murder, life imprisonment, it was clear from the off that there was no question of out after 19


----------



## cdg (May 14, 2013)

DexterTCN said:


> Most murderers serve 8 years, usually, don't they?


 
Do they? In which country?


----------



## Pickman's model (May 14, 2013)

cdg said:


> Do they? In which country?


dextertcn's imagination. it's a small island off skye.


----------



## existentialist (May 14, 2013)

Oh, I agree that he hasn't got off lightly - far from it - I was just curious as to what he might have gained by his late guilty plea - perhaps he knew that the prosecution of the sexual aspects was going to be even more unpleasant for him - I'm very sceptical about his protestations regarding not putting the family through any more, given that his actions so far seem to have been exclusively and pathologically self-serving.


----------



## DexterTCN (May 14, 2013)

cdg said:


> Do they? In which country?


In the country I live in, the UK, where I've been in jail with murderers, and the 'general' time to be served was 8 years from a life sentence then released on license.

It may have changed, I haven't been to jail for nearly 20 years.

My comment was on the sentence given to Hazell, not a declaration of fact.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 14, 2013)

existentialist said:


> Oh, I agree that he hasn't got off lightly - far from it - I was just curious as to the what he might have gained by his late guilty pleasure - perhaps he knew that the prosecution of the sexual aspects was going to be even more unpleasant for him - I'm very sceptical about his protestations regarding not putting the family through any more, given that his actions so far have been exclusively and pathologically self-serving.


if he'd pleaded guilty at the start he might have made his first five years inside slightly more bearable

as it is now all the gruesome details have come out i think it's a safe bet he won't be out on the streets in 2051


----------



## existentialist (May 14, 2013)

DexterTCN said:


> Most murderers serve 8 years, usually, don't they?
> 
> I think the judge has added on time for the sex assault,  38 years is just fine imo.


Some might, yes, but can you substantiate your claim of "most", ideally not using the Michael Gove school of evidence?


----------



## Pickman's model (May 14, 2013)

existentialist said:


> Some might, yes, but can you substantiate your claim of "most", ideally not using the Michael Gove school of evidence?


prepare for an age of deathly hush from dextertcn


----------



## existentialist (May 14, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> if he'd pleaded guilty at the start he might have made his first five years inside slightly more bearable
> 
> as it is now all the gruesome details have come out i think it's a safe bet he won't be out on the streets in 2051


Given that he's a suicide risk, probably not particularly healthy, and likely to be an Uncle Target in prison, then no, I can't see the likelihood of his making it to age 76 inside being that great.


----------



## DexterTCN (May 14, 2013)

I answered in #771.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 14, 2013)

DexterTCN said:


> In the country I live in, the UK, where I've been in jail with murderers, and the 'general' time to be served was 8 years from a life sentence then released on license.
> 
> It may have changed, I haven't been to jail for nearly 20 years.
> 
> My comment was on the sentence given to Hazell, not a declaration of fact.


not a declaration of fact? why the fuck mention it if it's fiction?


----------



## cdg (May 14, 2013)

DexterTCN said:


> In the country I live in, the UK, where I've been in jail with murderers, and the 'general' time to be served was 8 years from a life sentence then released on license.
> 
> It may have changed, I haven't been to jail for nearly 20 years.
> 
> My comment was on the sentence given to Hazell, not a declaration of fact.


 
Even 20 years ago the minimum term in the majority of cases was 12-14 years. It has changed recently and much longer sentences are given out, although I can't recall what was the catalyst for the change, anybody?


----------



## DexterTCN (May 14, 2013)

cdg said:


> Even 20 years ago the minimum term in the majority of cases was 12-14 years. It has changed recently and much longer sentences are given out, although I can't recall what was the catalyst for the change, anybody?


tories


----------



## cdg (May 14, 2013)

DexterTCN said:


> tories


 
No, it was in the early 2000's.


----------



## existentialist (May 14, 2013)

DexterTCN said:


> I answered in #771.


No, really, you didn't. But the fact that you think you did tells me exactly how many bushels of salt to take your original claim with


----------



## existentialist (May 14, 2013)

.


----------



## Citizen66 (May 14, 2013)

You hit quote instead of edit.


----------



## existentialist (May 14, 2013)

Citizen66 said:


> You hit quote instead of edit.


Tapatalk


----------



## Teaboy (May 14, 2013)

Anyway what a fucking horrible man and a truly terrible betrayal of trust. Regardless of his motivations for changing his plea at this stage I think its good that he has. I suspect the evidence was only going to get more harrowing and it sounds like his defence was going to be utterly implausible.

Talking of implausible defences I hope that bloke up in North Wales decides to follow suit.


----------



## existentialist (May 14, 2013)

Oh, I see that the judge has explained his sentencing decision now, so it's pretty clear that the sexual aspect of things was also incorporated into the tariff:


> Nicol said the starting point was a minimum term of 30 years' imprisonment, but a string of aggravating factors increased the minimum sentence to 38 years. The judge said these factors were Tia's age and the breach of trust involved in Hazell attacking and murdering the granddaughter of his partner. Other aggravating factors were the fact that Hazell took a degrading photograph of the child naked and in a sexual position, and then concealed the body in the loft until it was found decomposed, meting out more agony to her family.


Fair enough.


----------



## existentialist (May 14, 2013)

Teaboy said:


> Anyway what a fucking horrible man and a truly terrible betrayal of trust. Regardless of his motivations for changing his plea at this stage I think its good that he has. I suspect the evidence was only going to get more harrowing and it sounds like his defence was going to be utterly implausible.
> 
> Talking of implausible defences I hope that bloke up in North Wales decides to follow suit.


Yeah. That's not all that far up the road from here, so a lot of local interest. I do find myself wondering what we are going to learn about him following the outcome of the trial. And, certainly, the "whoops, I killed her then completely forgot what happened" defence seems a bit too much like taking everyone for idiots to be true...


----------



## Giles (May 14, 2013)

Just saw this snippet at the bottom of a news article about this awful case:

"Croydon Council has said the house where Tia's body was found, along with _two houses either side_, will be knocked down."

In a few murder cases recently, there seems to be this need for the killer's house to be demolished, has this always been done, or is it a "modern" thing?

Presumably the neighbours don't mind having their houses knocked down??

Or were they due for demolition anyway?

If this spreads, soon its going to be whole streets, neighbourhoods.....

GIles..


----------



## DotCommunist (May 14, 2013)

I think its to stop them becoming ghoul tourism spots like with rillington place


----------



## existentialist (May 14, 2013)

Giles said:


> Just saw this snippet at the bottom of a news article about this awful case:
> 
> "Croydon Council has said the house where Tia's body was found, along with _two houses either side_, will be knocked down."
> 
> ...


Yes, I've wondered whether it wasn't a spot of overreaction, but as DC says it may well be to avoid them becoming a ghoul spot.

Mind you, I'm not that familiar with New Addington, but most of it is a vast development of fairly shoddy 1960s local authority housing which is probably getting pretty knackered by now, so knocking down a few probably isn't going to be either here nor there.

And, as tenants, the neighbours probably don't have a lot of say in it - remembering, too, that one of them is still charged with assisting an offender in connection with the Tia Sharpe disappearance.


----------



## Ranbay (May 14, 2013)

They did the same with Fred Wests place...


----------



## Giles (May 14, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> I think its to stop them becoming ghoul tourism spots like with rillington place


 
I know why it is. But this is the first time that I have heard it announced that they are going to demolish not only the house where the crime took place, but the neighbours as well!

It seems a tad harsh for the neighbours to be told "sorry, someone got murdered next door but one, so your home is going to demolished". Presumably this only applies to council tenants? They couldn't compulsorily purchase my house, for example, because someone got done in next door?

I mean, people get murdered every day: it's terrible, sure.

But they don't knock down every "murder house" - so why some and not others?

Giles..


----------



## paulhackett (May 14, 2013)

Giles said:


> I know why it is. But this is the first time that I have heard it announced that they are going to demolish not only the house where the crime took place, but the neighbours as well!
> 
> It seems a tad harsh for the neighbours to be told "sorry, someone got murdered next door but one, so your home is going to demolished". Presumably this only applies to council tenants? They couldn't compulsorily purchase my house, for example, because someone got done in next door?
> 
> ...


 
There' a connecting roof access isn't there, so structurally if one goes, perhaps the others have to go?


----------



## existentialist (May 14, 2013)

Giles said:


> I know why it is. But this is the first time that I have heard it announced that they are going to demolish not only the house where the crime took place, but the neighbours as well!
> 
> It seems a tad harsh for the neighbours to be told "sorry, someone got murdered next door but one, so your home is going to demolished". Presumably this only applies to council tenants? They couldn't compulsorily purchase my house, for example, because someone got done in next door?
> 
> ...


AFAICR, the body was hidden in the roofspace of another house - the lofts all joined up, or something (see what I mean about "shoddy"?). So, a) other homes are implicated in the crime, and b) it's probably a lot of fuss to knock down one house and then have to remake the end wall of the neighbouring one(s).


----------



## Giles (May 14, 2013)

existentialist said:


> AFAICR, the body was hidden in the roofspace of another house - the lofts all joined up, or something (see what I mean about "shoddy"?). So, a) other homes are implicated in the crime, and b) it's probably a lot of fuss to knock down one house and then have to remake the end wall of the neighbouring one(s).


 
Just out of interest, if you'd lived in your home for years, and someone knocked on your door and said "sorry, but someone got murdered 2 doors down, so your house is being knocked down, so you'll have to fuck off" would you be happy with that? I don't think most people would.

Giles..


----------



## existentialist (May 14, 2013)

Giles said:


> Just out of interest, if you'd lived in your home for years, and someone knocked on your door and said "sorry, but someone got murdered 2 doors down, so your house is being knocked down, so you'll have to fuck off" would you be happy with that? I don't think most people would.
> 
> Giles..


No, I don't suppose they would, although I shouldn't imagine that the murder thing will come as a great shock to them in the circumstances.

But, as council tenants, as I think I've already said, they probably don't get a whole lot of say in it. And it might even be that some of them are quite happy *not* to be continuing to live in a terrace of houses where a notorious murder took place - a surprising number of people are quite squeamish about such things.


----------



## pocketscience (May 14, 2013)

Are we now allowed to call him a wrongun, without being jumped on by the opinion police?


----------



## D'wards (May 14, 2013)

paulhackett said:


> There' a connecting roof access isn't there, so structurally if one goes, perhaps the others have to go?


I used to live just up the road from there, they are terraces of about 6/7 houses in rows iirc. They probably will knock the whole terrace down, or else it will defo be a ghoul spot if there is just 3 house missing in the middle of the terrace.


----------



## existentialist (May 14, 2013)

pocketscience said:


> Are we now allowed to call him a wrongun, without being jumped on by the opinion police?


We have opinion police?


----------



## D'wards (May 14, 2013)

Does Hazel desrve any sympathy?

He was the child of a prostitute and criminal, and was brought up in children's homes and claims to have been raped in the home.

Seeing pictures of him as a child in a children's home with his brother and sister made me feel sad


----------



## Maurice Picarda (May 14, 2013)

If a ghoul would pay over the odds for the house isn't it the council's duty to collect the cash and then build a dozen units?


----------



## cdg (May 14, 2013)

D'wards said:


> Does Hazel desrve any sympathy?
> 
> He was the child of a prostitute and criminal, and was brought up in children's homes and claims to have been raped in the home.
> 
> Seeing pictures of him as a child in a children's home with his brother and sister made me feel sad


 
Of course you can give him sympathy for those reasons. He did something evil so he deserves everything that happened to him as a child? No, don't think so.


----------



## Thora (May 14, 2013)

D'wards said:


> Does Hazel desrve any sympathy?
> 
> He was the child of a prostitute and criminal, and was brought up in children's homes and claims to have been raped in the home.
> 
> Seeing pictures of him as a child in a children's home with his brother and sister made me feel sad


I think you can feel pity for the child he was.  I don't have sympathy for the man that raped and murdered a young girl though, however brutal his past was.


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## 1%er (May 14, 2013)

DexterTCN said:


> In the country I live in, the UK, where I've been in jail with murderers, and the 'general' time to be served was 8 years from a life sentence then released on license.
> 
> It may have changed, I haven't been to jail for nearly 20 years.
> 
> My comment was on the sentence given to Hazell, not a declaration of fact.


In 2003 the average was 15 years, 2010 and 2011 it was 16 years


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## cdg (May 14, 2013)

1%er said:


> In 2003 the average was 15 years, 2010 and 2011 it was 16 years


 
I posted this earlier in the thread, but didn't something happen about ten years ago and sentencing guidelines for murder were overhauled and the result was that the starting point became 18 years minimum.


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## cesare (May 14, 2013)

D'wards said:


> I used to live just up the road from there, they are terraces of about 6/7 houses in rows iirc. They probably will knock the whole terrace down, or else it will defo be a ghoul spot if there is just 3 house missing in the middle of the terrace.


Yes, we used to live in an identical block just across the access road (maybe 50 feet away). It's exactly as you say.


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## laptop (May 14, 2013)

pocketscience said:


> Are we now allowed to call him a wrongun, without being jumped on by the opinion police?


 
That's the _entire fucking point_ of a court verdict, numbskull.

Remind me to do my damnedest to influence the jury when you're charged.

E2A: but not here, because I wouldn't want to put the mods through Contempt of Court proceedings. They're not nice.


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## 1%er (May 14, 2013)

cdg said:


> I posted this earlier in the thread, but didn't something happen about ten years ago and sentencing guidelines for murder were overhauled and the result was that the starting point became 18 years minimum.


Yes, iirc Blunkett changed things in 2002 when he was HS


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## cdg (May 14, 2013)

1%er said:


> Yes, iirc Blunkett changed things in 2002 when he was HS


 
OK, I'll take your word for that.


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## Frances Lengel (May 14, 2013)

Giles said:


> Just saw this snippet at the bottom of a news article about this awful case:
> 
> "Croydon Council has said the house where Tia's body was found, along with _two houses either side_, will be knocked down."
> 
> ...


 
Myra Hindleys gaffe in Hattersley wasn't demolished til 1987 - Before that the council used to rent it out as normal, though they did have difficulty getting people to live there.


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## RedDragon (May 14, 2013)

Giles said:


> Just out of interest, if you'd lived in your home for years, and someone knocked on your door and said "sorry, but someone got murdered 2 doors down, so your house is being knocked down, so you'll have to fuck off" would you be happy with that? I don't think most people would.
> 
> Giles..


I had a friend who's bedroom wall connected to the top floor flat where Joe Orton was killed and as far as I know Denis Neilson's old house is still standing.


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## existentialist (May 14, 2013)

D'wards said:


> Does Hazel desrve any sympathy?
> 
> He was the child of a prostitute and criminal, and was brought up in children's homes and claims to have been raped in the home.
> 
> Seeing pictures of him as a child in a children's home with his brother and sister made me feel sad


Yes, he deserves sympathy. Evil is a product of its environment, and it's pretty clear that Hazell came from a pretty fucked up environment. To some extent, we should do what we can to help people from fucked up environments and enable them to live down their crappy start in life, and do the best they can with what they've got.

But against that has to be the question of personal responsibility (and I don't mean that in some kind of Victorian manner). There are people who come from the most inauspicious beginnings who live them down, and go on to make the world, even in some tiny way, just a little better for their presence in it. And there are those who seem to be doomed only to perpetuate the errors their lives started with, and spiral ever downwards, sometimes wrecking - or taking - other lives in the process.

Hazell deserves to be treated with common human decency - that is the least that humanity owes him - and even if he is likely, as he is, to spend the rest of his natural in prison, and despite my only-human wish that somehow he gets to experience the consequences of his terrible acts, he should be given every opportunity to make something of the pretty paltry life he now has ahead of him in prison.

I really find it hard not to react with horror and disgust at the actions of a person which culminated in posing the dead body of a child for a final obscene photograph, before indecently interring her in a council house loft...but something made him that way. It's a cop-out to suggest that he was, in some fundamental way, not human, just like we are.


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## cesare (May 14, 2013)

And they should replace those houses if they're actually going to demolish them.


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## kittyP (May 14, 2013)

cesare said:


> And they should replace those houses if they're actually going to demolish them.


 
If the local council use this terrible opportunity to knock down social housing and sell it off for private development.... well....I really don't know what I will think of humanity any more.


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## kittyP (May 14, 2013)

existentialist said:


> Yes, he deserves sympathy. Evil is a product of its environment, and it's pretty clear that Hazell came from a pretty fucked up environment. To some extent, we should do what we can to help people from fucked up environments and enable them to live down their crappy start in life, and do the best they can with what they've got.
> 
> But against that has to be the question of personal responsibility (and I don't mean that in some kind of Victorian manner). There are people who come from the most inauspicious beginnings who live them down, and go on to make the world, even in some tiny way, just a little better for their presence in it. And there are those who seem to be doomed only to perpetuate the errors their lives started with, and spiral ever downwards, sometimes wrecking - or taking - other lives in the process.
> 
> ...


 
Great post.
I just cannot, no matter now bad a crime, begin to believe in "good and evil".
Yes there are those that rise above their terrible upbringing to in some way achieve and make good in the world.
There are those that have all the best that life could offer as a child and go on to be horrible people,
Life is not as simple as good and bad and just deserts.
He will be kept away from society and he will be punished for what he did.


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## cesare (May 14, 2013)

kittyP said:


> If the local council use this terrible opportunity to knock down social housing and sell it off for private development.... well....I really don't know what I will think of humanity any more.


It's the sort of place where they might just pave it over or perhaps grass it for cost purposes rather than replace the houses so families can continue living there.


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## kittyP (May 14, 2013)

cesare said:


> It's the sort of place where they might just pave it over or perhaps grass it for cost purposes rather than replace the houses so families can continue living there.


 
I hope so.


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## cesare (May 14, 2013)

kittyP said:


> I hope so.


I just hope they replace the houses with more social housing


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## kittyP (May 14, 2013)

cesare said:


> I just hope they replace the houses


 
Totally. 
But it would be worse if the council profit from the sale of the land. 
Sorry, I am being particularly morbid in thinking that is a possibility.


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## brogdale (May 14, 2013)

kittyP said:


> Totally.
> But it would be worse if the council profit from the sale of the land.
> Sorry, I am being particularly morbid in thinking that is a possibility.


 
Assuming that those directly affected are re-housed to their satisfaction , it might be cathartic if the local community had a say in how the resulting space was used. Maybe a small openspace/garden for reflection?


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## cesare (May 14, 2013)

brogdale said:


> Assuming that those directly affected are re-housed to their satisfaction , it might be cathartic if the local community had a say in how the resulting space was used. Maybe a small openspace/garden for reflection?


Why should they be uprooted? Also, it's not that easy to get rehoused from there.


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## brogdale (May 14, 2013)

cesare said:


> Why should they be uprooted? Also, it's not that easy to get rehoused from there.


 
I wasn't suggesting that anyone should be uprooted from the estate against their will. I'm assuming that the council/housing association has worked with the immediate neighbours and sought their consent before going ahead with any demolition.


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## laptop (May 14, 2013)

kittyP said:


> Totally.
> But it would be worse if the council profit from the sale of the land.
> Sorry, I am being particularly morbid in thinking that is a possibility.


 
Not as morbid as I was being when I started speculating about property developers encouraging vile murders...


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## UrbaneFox (May 15, 2013)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/may/07/tia-sharp-death-sexual-assault

Shocking fingernails. And there are hundreds of nail bars in Croydon. No excuse.


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## kittyP (May 15, 2013)

laptop said:


> Not as morbid as I was being when I started speculating about property developers encouraging vile murders...


 
I was suspecting that you were not being entirely serious


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## kittyP (May 15, 2013)

Not that I am saying "normal pedophilia" (whatever that may be) is in any way more acceptable, but allegedly posing her after her death....
Plus, they are saying "he went to great lengths to hide the body" when, i'm sorry, I know it took the police a while to find her but it was in the loft of the house he was in.
And "he went to great lengths to hide other incriminating evidence" when it was found next to the body...
This is not the sign of a well mind at all in my humble opinion.


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## UrbaneFox (May 15, 2013)

Had he been planning to attack her for some years? He int thought it through.


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## kittyP (May 15, 2013)

UrbaneFox said:


> Had he been planning to attack her for some years? He int thought it through.


Like many an awful crime, I don't think we will ever really know exactly what happened and/or why. 
And while I will admit to my own morbid fascination, maybe it is not our place to know.


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## equationgirl (May 15, 2013)

pocketscience said:


> Are we now allowed to call him a wrongun, without being jumped on by the opinion police?


It's not opinion police, it's to do with libel laws and the laws surrounding reporting on active court cases. As he has now plead guilty he has effectively been convicted so call him a wrong'un all you like.


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## equationgirl (May 15, 2013)

RedDragon said:


> I had a friend who's bedroom wall connected to the top floor flat where Joe Orton was killed and *as far as I know Denis Neilson's old house is still standing.*


Which one? he lived in two properties where he killed people, iirc.


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## goldenecitrone (May 15, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> Which one? he lived in two properties where he killed people, iirc.


 
Cranley Gardens, up by Alexandra Palace. The place with the blocked drains.


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## trashpony (May 15, 2013)

He killed more people in Cricklewood so I don't know why he got called the Muswell Hill killer

This is an interesting article: http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2003/dec/13/weekend.craigtaylor


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## idumea (May 15, 2013)

Despicable article in the Mail.




> That detail alone was indicative of a deeply warped set of values. However, in a world where a man like Mick Philpott can kill six of his children by setting fire to their home while they’re asleep (and then casually ask their grieving mother to perform a sex act on a fellow suspect two days later), the idea of a grandmother living with her own daughter’s former boyfriend no longer hits us with the sledgehammer of revulsion that it should.
> 
> The sad truth is that in certain sectors of society, the idea of a nuclear family, with a mother and father who are married to each other and who put the love and care of their children first, has become almost laughably old-fashioned.


 
I'm not even sure where to start




> And Tia’s murder has provided us with yet another horrifying glimpse of a growing underclass where men blot out their inadequacies with alcohol and drugs, and women lose not just their self-respect but with it their primary instinct: to protect the children in their care.
> ​


 
​
Evil, muckraking bottom-feeding weasel worded shits


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## Frances Lengel (May 15, 2013)

idumea said:


> Despicable article in the Mail.
> 
> 
> #
> ...


 
The content of that article isn't a million miles from some of the shite being chatted earlier on in this thread.


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## idumea (May 15, 2013)

that feckless child murdering underclass eh - death's too good. etc etc


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## idumea (May 15, 2013)

I shouldn't be surprised - despicable tragedy happens - despicable article follows in the Mail - they're playing me like a piano


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## twentythreedom (May 15, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> Which one? he lived in two properties where he killed people, iirc.


My great aunt lived on Cranley Gardens, she was one of the people who complained about the smell from the drains


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## goldenecitrone (May 15, 2013)

twentythreedom said:


> My great aunt lived on Cranley Gardens, she was one of the people who complained about the smell from the drains


 
Who did she complain to? Not him I take it.


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## equationgirl (May 15, 2013)

goldenecitrone said:


> Who did she complain to? Not him I take it.


Plumbing company was called I think, they made the grisly discovery in the drains.


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## Frances Lengel (May 15, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> Plumbing company was called I think, they made the grisly discovery in the drains.


 
It's always a grisly discovery - Either that or a gruesome find.


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## equationgirl (May 15, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> It's always a grisly discovery - Either that or a gruesome find.


True


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## goldenecitrone (May 15, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> It's always a grisly discovery - Either that or a gruesome find.


 
Not always. Our sink was a bit blocked a few months back and it turned out to be an old dishcloth the last plumber had somehow left in there. Not a decomposing body part in sight.


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## UrbaneFox (May 15, 2013)

twentythreedom said:


> My great aunt lived on Cranley Gardens, she was one of the people who complained about the smell from the drains


 
Why have you waited so long before disclosing this information?


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## twentythreedom (May 15, 2013)

UrbaneFox said:


> Why have you waited so long before disclosing this information?


Pay attention
http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/books-about-real-murders.281452/page-2#post-10488788


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## twentythreedom (May 15, 2013)

goldenecitrone said:


> Who did she complain to? Not him I take it.


The council iirc


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