# BNP leader faces jail!!



## MrA (Jan 10, 2010)

Source 

_The British National party is facing a crisis in the run-up to the general election after it emerged that Nick Griffin, its leader, could be jailed over its illegal “whites only” membership policy._

Here's hoping!!


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## Azrael (Jan 10, 2010)

Hop aboard, one & all! The martyrdom express is leaving the station!


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## MrA (Jan 10, 2010)

My gut feeling is that he'll go for a quick vote and a change in principle until the election is out of the way.

I'm hoping that he's a consistant useless twat and he ends up in jail.


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## butchersapron (Jan 10, 2010)

What a pointless article. Transparently designed to cause trouble for the BNP 'from above' - knowing full well that the content of the headline is pure bullshit. Leppard is a hyena who'll post up any shit anyone official sounding sends him anyway - Michael Foot was  a KGB spy - remember who broke that scoop?


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## derf (Jan 10, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> What a pointless article. Transparently designed to cause trouble for the BNP 'from above' - knowing full well that the content of the headline is pure bullshit. Leppard is a hyena who'll post up any shit anyone official sounding sends him anyway - Michael Foot was  a KGB spy - remember who broke that scoop?



Fair chance that's true but the though of Adolf griff in the nick was amusing anyway.


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## butchersapron (Jan 10, 2010)

Why? In what way would it damage them? if anything it would shore up his harder edge that he's been accused of losing over the last few years - esp over this specific issue. It would be a gift to him and his credibility. Not that it's ever going to happen, but it does highlight once more the glaring deficiencies of this sort of official anti-fascism from above. Take the publicity that the UAF and associates gave to the EDL over the last year - allowing them to actually become something real in the process - and magnify it by about 1000.


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## MrA (Jan 10, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> What a pointless article. Transparently designed to cause trouble for the BNP 'from above' - knowing full well that the content of the headline is pure bullshit. Leppard is a hyena who'll post up any shit anyone official sounding sends him anyway - *Michael Foot was  a KGB spy - remember who broke that scoop*?



Was it the same guy? You have a good memory. 

If it causes trouble for the BNP then I shan't lose sleep over it. If it has an element of truth in it I'd be happy as a pig in poop.


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## butchersapron (Jan 10, 2010)

It was. It won't cause them trouble - it'd get Griffin _out_ of a slight bit of bother.


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## williammartin (Jan 10, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> Take the publicity that the UAF and associates gave to the EDL over the last year - allowing them to actually become something real in the process - and magnify it by about 1000.



Quite, the UAF, are the best recruiting sergeants the BNP have, and they don't cost the BNP a penny piece.


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## MrA (Jan 10, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> It was. It won't cause them trouble - it'd get Griffin _out_ of a slight bit of bother.



I'm not so sure, I think he's under pressure from within and this _could _tip the balance, I'm hoping so anyway, I'd like to someone like Bron take over, the little credibility the BNP have would soon be eroded.

Also, the BNP have faded into the backgroud recently which suits them, I'd prefer to see them front and centre not being attacked soley on race, which is relevant, but questioned on their (mini) manifesto, which many people would find unpaletable. 

At the moment they are being allowed to cherry pick the sound bites that suit their agenda and purposes better.


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## butchersapron (Jan 10, 2010)

MrA said:


> I'm not so sure, I think he's under pressure from within and this _could _tip the balance, I'm hoping so anyway, I'd like to someone like Bron take over, the little credibility the BNP have would soon be eroded.
> 
> Also, the BNP have faded into the backgroud recently which suits them, I'd prefer to see them front and centre not being attacked soley on race, which is relevant, but questioned on their (mini) manifesto, which many people would find unpaletable.
> 
> At the moment they are being allowed to cherry pick the sound bites that suit their agenda and purposes better.



He's under a _tiny_ bit of pressure over this, pressure which has proved easily managable though, in fact it's been turned to his advantage by allowing what's left of the nutjob element to isolate themselves. The changes are going to happen either way, so this stunt will allow him to regain lost credibility by looking principled over the issue whilst dumping his principles. (Not that it's going to happen anyway). 

His position as leader is the most secure in the country right now - Brown could go at anytime and Clegg and Cameron are only on a five month lease - Griffin will still be there this time next year.


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## MrA (Jan 10, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> He's under a _tiny_ bit of pressure over this, pressure which has proved easily managable though, in fact it's been turned to his advantage by allowing what's left of the nutjob element to isolate themselves. The changes are going to happen either way, so this stunt will allow him to regain lost credibility by looking principled over the issue whilst dumping his principles. (Not that it's going to happen anyway).
> 
> His position as leader is the most secure in the country right now - Brown could go at anytime and Clegg and Cameron are only on a five month lease - Griffin will still be there this time next year.



You say that but many of his rank and file aren't happy. I have a lurking account at C18. It's only a small sample, but there are similar rumblings on other scumbag forums.


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## butchersapron (Jan 10, 2010)

'C18'  and people who post on guestbooks like that are fuck all to with the BNP - they're the people Griffin has driven from the party or at least made utterly weightless politically. They're the people whose default position is that the BNP are a sell-out of white nationalism. They're simply not the BNP rank and file anymore and haven't been for some time now. It would be a terrible mistake to confuse all racists with the BNP, esp when it's these ideologically committed nutjobs who are actually opposed to the BNP rather thna being unhappy voices from inside.


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## TremulousTetra (Jan 10, 2010)

williammartin said:


> Quite, the UAF, are the best recruiting sergeants the BNP have, and they don't cost the BNP a penny piece.


Daily Mail etc 12 year campaign against Asylum Seekers, immigrants, Muslims etc?


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## TremulousTetra (Jan 10, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> 'C18'  and people who post on guestbooks like that are fuck all to with the BNP - they're the people Griffin has driven from the party or at least made utterly weightless politically. They're the people whose default position is that the BNP are a sell-out of white nationalism. They're simply not the BNP rank and file anymore and haven't been for some time now. It would be a terrible mistake to confuse all racists with the BNP, esp when it's these ideologically committed nutjobs who are actually opposed to the BNP rather thna being unhappy voices from inside.


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## TremulousTetra (Jan 10, 2010)

MrA said:


> I'm not so sure, I think he's under pressure from within and this _could _tip the balance, I'm hoping so anyway, I'd like to someone like Bron take over, the little credibility the BNP have would soon be eroded.
> 
> Also, the BNP have faded into the backgroud recently which suits them, I'd prefer to see them front and centre not being attacked soley on race, which is relevant, but questioned on their (mini) manifesto, which many people would find unpaletable.
> 
> At the moment they are being allowed to cherry pick the sound bites that suit their agenda and purposes better.


link to mini manifesto please?


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## butchersapron (Jan 10, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> butchersapron said:
> 
> 
> 
> > 'C18' and people who post on guestbooks like that are fuck all to with the BNP - they're the people Griffin has driven from the party or at least made utterly weightless politically. They're the people whose default position is that the BNP are a sell-out of white nationalism. They're simply not the BNP rank and file anymore and haven't been for some time now. It would be a terrible mistake to confuse all racists with the BNP, esp when it's these ideologically committed nutjobs who are actually opposed to the BNP rather thna being unhappy voices from inside.


Thanks for that. What point are you making by posting a link to a video of a leading BNP member saying that the NF run Redwatch and that it's nothing to do with the BNP? I can only presume that you're posting it in support of my post that the nutjobs have by and large been chased out of the BNP or rendered politically ineffective.


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## audiotech (Jan 10, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> Thanks for that. What point are you making by posting a link to a video of a leading BNP member saying that the NF run Redwatch and that it's nothing to do with the BNP? I can only presume that you're posting it in support of my post that the nutjobs have by and large been chased out of the BNP or rendered politically ineffective.



Collett said it was 'nothing to do with me'. On another video I've seen on YouTube Collett is in a house wimpering in the presence of two people, including one player who runs redwatch.


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## tastebud (Jan 10, 2010)

it does seem highly unlikely. they might get fined - that would be it.


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## butchersapron (Jan 10, 2010)

MC5 said:


> Collett said it was 'nothing to do with me'. On another video I've seen on YouTube Collett is in a house wimpering in the presence of two people, including one player who runs redwatch.



...and?


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## audiotech (Jan 10, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> ...and?



Had a close connection to be in the same room with one of the people who runs redwatch don't you think?


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## butchersapron (Jan 10, 2010)

MC5 said:


> Had a close connection to be in the same room with one of the people who runs redwatch don't you think?



Considering there's a handful of white nationalists in leeds, no not really - the only remarkable thing about that vid is how anyone would allow themselves to be bullied by that pair of clowns. I know swp and SP and all sorts in Bristol - doesn't mean i run the local SWP or SP. Is your suggestion really that the BNP run redwatch? edit: and that, by extension and in line with rmp3's mysterious post, that the BNP's turn away from the nutjobs over the last 10 years hasn't actually took place.That a whole host of commentators from all sorts of differing perspectives have conjured it up out of nowhere?


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## Y_I_Otter (Jan 10, 2010)

I'd have thought it was fairly obvious who runs Redwatch. They seem to spend nearly as bandwidth dumping on nationalists who aren't BNP as they do monitoring the activities of 'Reds'.


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## butchersapron (Jan 10, 2010)

Y_I_Otter said:


> I'd have thought it was fairly obvious who runs Redwatch. They seem to spend nearly as bandwidth dumping on nationalists who aren't BNP as they do monitoring the activities of 'Reds'.



You think the BNP run redwatch? Where are these attacks on non-bnp nationalists?


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## audiotech (Jan 10, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> Considering there's a handful of white nationalists in leeds, no not really - the only remarkable thing about that vid is how anyone would allow themselves to be bullied by that pair of clowns. I know swp and SP and all sorts in Bristol - doesn't mean i run the local SWP or SP. Is your suggestion really that the BNP run redwatch? edit: and that, by extension and in line with rmp3's mysterious post, that the BNP's turn away from the nutjobs over the last 10 years hasn't actually took place.That a whole host of commentators from all sorts of differing perspectives have conjured it up out of nowhere?



My deliberate use of the word 'had' in my previous post answers your ramblings.


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## Random (Jan 10, 2010)

MC5 said:


> My deliberate use of the word 'had' in my previous post answers your ramblings.



It renders your earlier point fairly meaningless, though


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## butchersapron (Jan 10, 2010)

Indeed, so now we have _both_ rmp3 and MC5 posting in support of the idea that the BNP doesn't run redwatch.


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## audiotech (Jan 10, 2010)

Meaningless in the sense that there has been a close connection to redwatch by a senior BNP member in the past, but this has been officially distanced from now?


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## LLETSA (Jan 10, 2010)

It's fairly obvious that some individuals in the BNP would approve of Redwatch and seek to collaborate with it, despite, as has been mentioned, the hostility of those running it, past and present, to most of what the BNP is currently trying to do. It doesn't mean that the BNP runs Redwatch, which is a paper tiger anyway. A hobby for mental cases.


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## williammartin (Jan 10, 2010)

I find it very odd the establishment political parties are so scared of the BNP they are going to such lengths to stop Griffin standing at the general election.
They would do much better to address the issues effecting the poor white working class all three main parties seem to have abandoned.


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## LLETSA (Jan 10, 2010)

williammartin said:


> I find it very odd the establishment political parties are so scared of the BNP they are going to such lengths to stop Griffin standing at the general election.
> They would do much better to address the issues effecting the poor white working class all three main parties seem to have abandoned.





They're not scared of Griffin. They rely on the purpose he serves.


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## audiotech (Jan 10, 2010)

LLETSA said:


> It doesn't mean that the BNP runs Redwatch,...



They never have.


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## LLETSA (Jan 10, 2010)

MC5 said:


> They never have.





Quite.


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## williammartin (Jan 10, 2010)

LLETSA said:


> They're not scared of Griffin. They rely on the purpose he serves.




Sorry but we will have to agree to disagree, when Griffin and Brons were elected as MEPs the three main parties soiled their underwear.


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## Y_I_Otter (Jan 10, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> You think the BNP run redwatch? Where are these attacks on non-bnp nationalists?



I happened to be browsing the site yesterday, as it happens. They'd been down for a while and I was interested in seeing what new character assassinations they'd been up to during their hiatus. Just lately they're posting pics and real name of some Spermfront poster who identifies as NF (the preferred flavour of nationalism over there), but has the temerity to be fond of some footballer of colour. There's been a shitload of that kind of stuff in the past, but never against any true-blue BNPers, only people who have either been turfed from the party for one reason or another, or who have been public about why they left of their own accord. 

I also follow the UK board at VNN which is solid BNP territory and they're mostly very Redwatch-friendly BNP types. (If you buck the party line over there, you're one of three things: a Searchlight Spy, a UAF mole or a Jew.) Unless I'm mistaken, some people 'closely associated'  with RW post there as well. 

I read the Brit nationalist/neo-nazi blogs when time permits as well. I love this kind of stuff, from the POV of an anti-racist who doesn't watch much TV. It's my second-favourite British soap, after Corrie.


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## Pickman's model (Jan 10, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> What a pointless article. Transparently designed to cause trouble for the BNP 'from above' - knowing full well that the content of the headline is pure bullshit. Leppard is a hyena who'll post up any shit anyone official sounding sends him anyway - Michael Foot was  a KGB spy - remember who broke that scoop?


& the hitler diaries if memory serves


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## LLETSA (Jan 10, 2010)

williammartin said:


> Sorry but we will have to agree to disagree, when Griffin and Brons were elected as MEPs the three main parties soiled their underwear.




Don't you think that it might be in the script?


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## ViolentPanda (Jan 10, 2010)

Azrael said:


> Hop aboard, one & all! The martyrdom express is leaving the station!



That's exactly how Griffin and Co. will play it. They'll rail against the liberal courts who're "unnecessarily" oppressing them, and milk the publicity for all it's worth.


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## audiotech (Jan 10, 2010)

Pickman's model said:


> & the hitler diaries if memory serves



http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0074s6q/Days_that_Shook_the_World_Series_3_The_Hitler_Diaries/


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## williammartin (Jan 10, 2010)

LLETSA said:


> Don't you think that it might be in the script?



I seriously think they are genuinely scared. They have all left areas of white working class deprived  areas to rot. Nationally council house waiting list times are from 4 years to 14 years (Shelter web site.)
The surprise should be that the BMP only gets under a million votes considering just how hacked of people are.


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## LLETSA (Jan 10, 2010)

williammartin said:


> I seriously think they are genuinely scared. They have all left areas of white working class deprived  areas to rot.




And the BNP, with their, on the whole laughable, unrealisable programme and tendency to foster low-level and manageable (so far) race conflict, are much preferable to a genuine, viable opposition.


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## Citizen66 (Jan 10, 2010)

LLETSA said:


> It's fairly obvious that some individuals in the BNP would approve of Redwatch and seek to collaborate with it, despite, as has been mentioned, the hostility of those running it, past and present, to most of what the BNP is currently trying to do. It doesn't mean that the BNP runs Redwatch, which is a paper tiger anyway. A hobby for mental cases.



Well yeah. The BNP don't have to be involved with actually running redwatch to _encourage_ people to use it to give 'reds' grief. It is a 'service' that encourages people to send in photographs and information on 'reds'. 

Antifa claim it is run by Mr K. Watmough who is/was a founding member of the British People's Party; some fringe far right loopy outfit not connected with the BNP.



> Redwatch' is a so-called fascist ‘hate-site’, where members of the far-right post pictures of the enemies they will ‘one day make pay’. While the site is undoubtedly designed to intimidate, as with many myths by and about fascists, and often circulated by the pseudo antifascist entity Searchlight, the reality about 'Redwatch', is very different to the fascist wanking fantasy they would like us to believe.
> 
> Experienced antifascists have long realised that fascist fantasies about ‘Aryan hard-men’, also long propagated by Searchlight, were far from the truth. The reality is that most fascists are snivelling little cowards.
> 
> ...



Don't know if the above is based on fact or shit stirring on behalf of Antifa.

http://www.antifa.org.uk/nucleus3.32/nucleus332/index.php?itemid=2


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## Azrael (Jan 10, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> That's exactly how Griffin and Co. will play it. They'll rail against the liberal courts who're "unnecessarily" oppressing them, and milk the publicity for all it's worth.


And worse, this counter-productive ruling will remove the best evidence for the BNP's bigotry. (Like it's needed, but even so.) "See, we let everyone in, reglardless of race!" "You were forced to." "No one cares about legal history. Point is, we don't discriminate." Etc.


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## ViolentPanda (Jan 10, 2010)

MrA said:


> I'm not so sure, I think he's under pressure from within and this _could _tip the balance, I'm hoping so anyway, I'd like to someone like Bron take over, the little credibility the BNP have would soon be eroded.


Griffin has purged the party often enough that whatever pressure he might be under "from within" is containable. People need to stop seeing him as an oaf stumbling his way through politics and realise that the bloke, while not a consummate professional, knows how to play the politics game.


> Also, the BNP have faded into the backgroud recently which suits them, I'd prefer to see them front and centre not being attacked soley on race, which is relevant, but questioned on their (mini) manifesto, which many people would find unpaletable.


True, but with a rather large proviso that "mainstream politics" and the politics of the BNP have some points of convergence.


> At the moment they are being allowed to cherry pick the sound bites that suit their agenda and purposes better.


Of course.
The question is: When the time comes, will the media expose this and expose them, or will the media-owners find it more in the interests of the establishment to not do so?


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## Azrael (Jan 10, 2010)

And if Nicholas Griffin is half as smart as is claimed (less now, after his woeful _QT_ performance), he'd recognise that the ruling has done him an enormous favour. It's done his job for him by removing a embarrassing clause. It's removal will probably have little (if any) practical effect, but would have caused a vicious internal battle if Mr* Griffin had attempted it. 

*Prefix implies neither approval or respect for Griffin, just the fact that he isn't, currently, a convict.


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## weltweit (Jan 10, 2010)

I doubt he will see the inside of a Jail.


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## ViolentPanda (Jan 10, 2010)

MrA said:


> You say that but many of his rank and file aren't happy. I have a lurking account at C18. It's only a small sample, but there are similar rumblings on other scumbag forums.



If looked at in the context of most "conventional model" political parties, then he's got nothing to worry about. He may lose a small number of members, but he can play that (as he has previously) as the purging of undesirable neo-fascist elements, rather than the purging of malcontents. His party (like other parties) will be relying on a mixture of grass-roots inertia and an electoral "call to arms" to carry through 2010.


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## ViolentPanda (Jan 10, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> Daily Mail etc 12 year campaign against Asylum Seekers, immigrants, Muslims etc?



The _Mail_ appeals to mostly a different demographic than the BNP. Mostly tory with the more extreme members of the readership going for UKIP. Saying that the _Mail_'s campaigning is a better recruiting sergeant for the BNP than UAF's antics is a ridiculous comparison. The _Mail_ is likely to influence people to vote tory or UKIP, the kids at UAF may possibly irritate non-politicals into voting hard right just to spite Weyman's Warriors.

And if you're going to whine about the _Daily Mail_, at least get your whining right. The _Mail_'s "anti-alien" campaign has been going for over a hundred years. Only the pigeon-holes change. They're nothing if not consistent.


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## ViolentPanda (Jan 10, 2010)

MC5 said:


> Had a close connection to be in the same room with one of the people who runs redwatch don't you think?


You *could* make that assumption, but that's all it is without actual knowledge that the two are indeed linked.


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## ViolentPanda (Jan 10, 2010)

williammartin said:


> I find it very odd the establishment political parties are so scared of the BNP they are going to such lengths to stop Griffin standing at the general election.
> They would do much better to address the issues effecting the poor white working class all three main parties seem to have abandoned.


That would mean a change of economic strategy away from neo-liberalism, and while it might garner votes in the short term, it'd range the vested interests of international capital against any party brave/stupid enough to do so.


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## audiotech (Jan 10, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> ...the kids at UAF may possibly irritate non-politicals into voting hard right just to spite Weyman's Warriors.



Unlikely to affect the vote against that much. Most non-political voters, if there is such an animal, I suspect have never heard of UAF, or Weyman.


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## ViolentPanda (Jan 10, 2010)

williammartin said:


> Sorry but we will have to agree to disagree, when Griffin and Brons were elected as MEPs the three main parties soiled their underwear.



Only because of the *symbolic* message the winning of those two seats sent. They don't see them as a political threat, not least because the three main parties can always "do a Thatcher", lift any policies of the BNP that look popular, and re-word them as their own.


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## ViolentPanda (Jan 10, 2010)

williammartin said:


> I seriously think they are genuinely scared. They have all left areas of white working class deprived  areas to rot. Nationally council house waiting list times are from 4 years to 14 years (Shelter web site.)
> The surprise should be that the BMP only gets under a million votes considering just how hacked of people are.



Do "hacked off" people automatically become self-centred racists, then?
IMHO it takes more than poverty and housing issues to turn the majority of people into fascistic hordes. Arguably the situation was far more ripe for Mosley in the 1930s than it will ever be for Griffin, and yet w/c Britain didn't turn fascist then, *before* we knew how far fascism could go.


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## ViolentPanda (Jan 10, 2010)

MC5 said:


> Unlikely to affect the vote against that much. Most non-political voters, if there is such an animal, I suspect have never heard of UAF, or Weyman.



So you don't reckon there are people in every locale that UAF have held an "action" who thought "what a bunch of shouty obnoxious cunts. They've fucked me right off. I'm going to vote BNP just to spite the twats", then? 
Bear in mind that I've actually heard people *say* the above, although I've (hopefully) convinced them that voting BNP even as a protest against halfwits is a bad move.


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## audiotech (Jan 10, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> So you don't reckon there are people in every locale that UAF have held an "action" who thought "what a bunch of shouty obnoxious cunts. They've fucked me right off. I'm going to vote BNP just to spite the twats", then?
> Bear in mind that I've actually heard people *say* the above, although I've (hopefully) convinced them that voting BNP even as a protest against halfwits is a bad move.



No, they would have probably voted BNP ayway despite what you've heard.


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## williammartin (Jan 10, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> Do "hacked off" people automatically become self-centred racists, then?
> IMHO it takes more than poverty and housing issues to turn the majority of people into fascistic hordes. .



Some do some don't. Interesting news from Italy though relevant to the discussion:-
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ukpress/article/ALeqM5ivMTFzdRIK82mdzQA8MRuDg5AGzg


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## Citizen66 (Jan 10, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> Do "hacked off" people automatically become self-centred racists, then?
> IMHO it takes more than poverty and housing issues to turn the majority of people into fascistic hordes.



The issues turning folk towards the BNP aren't poverty and housing though, but immigration. It has been argued on here (even by yourself) that the core BNP vote is from the lower middle classes who don't generally have problems with housing or face poverty like the w/c do. Most people I know of who are suddenly championing the BNP tend to know very little about politics but follow the line of no more immigration = vote BNP.


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## ViolentPanda (Jan 10, 2010)

williammartin said:


> Some do some don't. Interesting news from Italy though relevant to the discussion:-
> http://www.google.com/hostednews/ukpress/article/ALeqM5ivMTFzdRIK82mdzQA8MRuDg5AGzg



In my experience (which is from about '77 onward) the majority don't. Even at the NF's zenith of influence they were politically insignificant because despite inflation, 2 oil shocks and currency devaluation, plus "immigrants coming over here and taking our jobs", the punters saw racialised politics for what they were. The danger with the BNP is that they've (to some extent successfully) played down the race politics and emphasised the "nationalist" part of the equation, something shedding their "whites only" policy will allow them to pursue with renewed vigour.


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## MrA (Jan 10, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> link to mini manifesto please?



 BNP What did your last slave die of? 





williammartin said:


> I find it very odd the establishment political parties are so scared of the BNP they are going to such lengths to stop Griffin standing at the general election.
> They would do much better to address the issues effecting the poor white working class all three main parties seem to have abandoned.



I would say that labour have most to lose and it's better for them to tackle an isue whilst it's still small and manageable. So they've made a complete hash of it. The BNP nationally focus on immigration and Islamification that has a nationalistic bent. Locally the focus on minor incidents regarding race that play to local prejudices and fears.



Azrael said:


> And if Nicholas Griffin is half as smart as is claimed (less now, after his woeful _QT_ performance), he'd recognise that the ruling has done him an enormous favour. It's done his job for him by removing a embarrassing clause. It's removal will probably have little (if any) practical effect, but would have caused a vicious internal battle if Mr* Griffin had attempted it.
> *Prefix implies neither approval or respect for Griffin, just the fact that he isn't, currently, a convict.



The BNP are in dire finacial straights and he relies on the rank and file to bank roll his political aspirations, the  lower middle class in target areas are unlikely to join the BNP but more likely to vote BNP.

Cyclpos did attempt to defend the membership clause but dropped the defense as his chances of winning were slim to non existant and his party funds wouldn't have taken the strain.






ViolentPanda said:


> If looked at in the context of most "conventional model" political parties, then he's got nothing to worry about. He may lose a small number of members, but he can play that (as he has previously) as the purging of undesirable neo-fascist elements, rather than the purging of malcontents. His party (like other parties) will be relying on a mixture of grass-roots inertia and an electoral "call to arms" to carry through 2010.



He really couldn't afford to lose even a small number of members, his balance sheet was only saved, ironically, by having the two seats in the European parliament.  You're quite correct in he has succesfully purged some of the neo-facists and subdued others, the others are waiting for him slip IMO. So far he's been very astute regarding internal BNP politics and it's this very reason why I'd like to see him sidelined, Collet or Bron would likely fuck up royally.





ViolentPanda said:


> Only because of the *symbolic* message the winning of those two seats sent. They don't see them as a political threat, not least because the three main parties can always "do a Thatcher", lift any policies of the BNP that look popular, and re-word them as their own.



This is very likely to happen, a proven tactic in years past.


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## philkill (Jan 10, 2010)

MrA said:


> Source
> 
> _The British National party is facing a crisis in the run-up to the general election after it emerged that Nick Griffin, its leader, could be jailed over its illegal “whites only” membership policy._
> 
> Here's hoping!!



Won't happen!


----------



## MrA (Jan 10, 2010)

philkill said:


> Won't happen!



You're probably right. My initial enthusiasm for his incarceration has somewhat diminished after reading some of the comments. 

My bonfire has been pee'd on.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 10, 2010)

MrA said:


> You're probably right. My initial enthusiasm for his incarceration has somewhat diminished after reading some of the comments.
> 
> My bonfire has been pee'd on.



Quite, the ultra leftists take away any enthusiasm for politics and replace it with depression. There is something wrong when they do this repeatedly...

AS it goes, *I think Griffin in prison would be good.* I cannot see it helping the BNP at all (less cash from his 'job' etc). As for doing his credibility good by Griffin being in prison. ONLY among a certain very small section of the population, and those predisposed to thinking the BNP actually have anything to say.


----------



## williammartin (Jan 10, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> In my experience (which is from about '77 onward) the majority don't..




My experience in the last 18 months is an ever increasing number of people seem to be prepared to openly state that they are going to vote BNP at the next general election.
(Quite why I have no idea, because in normal circumstances all they have wanted to do in the past is get ratarsed and chill for the weekend and not mention politics.)
They are not the stereotypical "knuckle draggers" either.


----------



## audiotech (Jan 10, 2010)

Patient argument and an alternative may dissuade them. Either that, or stating that the BNP get a lot of support from the old bill works I find, but it all depends who you're talking to?


...


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 11, 2010)

williammartin said:


> My experience in the last 18 months is an ever increasing number of people seem to be prepared to openly state that they are going to vote BNP at the next general election.


Which again mirrors the situation in the late 1970s into the early 1980s with the NF. In terms of pre-electoral polling and anecdotal opinion for '79, and even to some extent in '83, the NF appeared to have a fairly large constituency, based on people "openly stating" an intention to vote for them. It didn't however, materialise, not least because of the co-opting of policy by the tories, but also because some people, "in the cold light of day", couldn't bring themselves to vote for such people.
Griffin *does* have an "advantage" in that the BNP's current politics aren't as race-based as the NF's were, so he can sell the BNP's "nationalism" over their supremacism, but he may very well still have the problems that did for the NF, at least in terms of the coming GE. Not that he'll necessarily mind that, as I suspect he'd be happy just to consolidate the current position.


> (Quite why I have no idea, because in normal circumstances all they have wanted to do in the past is get ratarsed and chill for the weekend and not mention politics.)
> They are not the stereotypical "knuckle draggers" either.


Sounds like the archetypal "protest vote", where people can't quite bring themselves to abstain from voting, so vote wildly for a party they believe has no chance.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 11, 2010)

Citizen66 said:


> The issues turning folk towards the BNP aren't poverty and housing though, but immigration. It has been argued on here (even by yourself) that the core BNP vote is from the lower middle classes who don't generally have problems with housing or face poverty like the w/c do.


I'd argue that they in some cases *do* but that it's of a different type than the issues that people like myself have, in that their issues with poverty and housing aren't based so much on the insecurity of their position as the insecurity of their self-image and self-belief. Almost a return to the Victorian-era dread of not being able to put the right face on for the world rather than fear of the workhouse. 


> Most people I know of who are suddenly championing the BNP tend to know very little about politics but follow the line of no more immigration = vote BNP.


Weirdly, the areas where I've experienced this attitude have been rural rather than urban. Perhaps my estate just has a larger than average quota of well-integrated human beings!


----------



## LLETSA (Jan 11, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> Quite, the ultra leftists take away any enthusiasm for politics and replace it with depression. There is something wrong when they do this repeatedly...
> 
> AS it goes, *I think Griffin in prison would be good.* I cannot see it helping the BNP at all (less cash from his 'job' etc). As for doing his credibility good by Griffin being in prison. ONLY among a certain very small section of the population, and those predisposed to thinking the BNP actually have anything to say.




Yes indeed. Calling on the state to imprison Nick Griffin is clearly the height of working class political consciousness.


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 11, 2010)

LLETSA said:


> Yes indeed. Calling on the state to imprison Nick Griffin is clearly the height of working class political consciousness.



the alternative course of action argued by the same poster was to bring some fictitious  mob in to do Griffin over.


----------



## LLETSA (Jan 11, 2010)

The39thStep said:


> the alternative course of action argued by the same poster was to bring some fictitious  mob in to do Griffin over.





Anything to stave off ultra-left induced depression.


----------



## MrA (Jan 11, 2010)

williammartin said:


> My experience in the last 18 months is an ever increasing number of people seem to be prepared to openly state that they are going to vote BNP at the next general election.
> (Quite why I have no idea, because in normal circumstances all they have wanted to do in the past is get ratarsed and chill for the weekend and not mention politics.)
> They are not the stereotypical "knuckle draggers" either.



Some people have openly admited as much to me and I'm mixed race, they genuinely believe that they and the BNP aren't racist until I point out their policies regarding British Citizenship and non white _expulsion _, they have no idea that the BNP have these policies.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 11, 2010)

They don't have a policy of non-white expulsion.


----------



## MrA (Jan 11, 2010)

LLETSA said:


> Yes indeed. Calling on the state to imprison Nick Griffin is clearly the height of working class political consciousness.



The state? He may rightly go to prison for falling foul of the law.


----------



## MrA (Jan 11, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> They don't have a policy of non-white expulsion.



Yes they do

 The BNP’s policy is to:





			
				scumsuckers said:
			
		

> - Deport all the two million plus who are here illegally;
> 
> - Deport all those who commit crimes and whose original nationality was not British;
> 
> ...






			
				scumsuckers said:
			
		

> The British National Party  exists to secure a future for the indigenous peoples of these islands in the North Atlantic which have been our homeland for millennia.
> 
> We use the term indigenous to describe the people whose ancestors were the earliest settlers here after the last great Ice Age and which have been complemented by the historic migrations from mainland Europe.


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 11, 2010)

MrA said:


> Yes they do
> 
> The BNP’s policy is to:



where is the bit about non white expulsion?


----------



## LLETSA (Jan 11, 2010)

MrA said:


> The state? He may rightly go to prison for falling foul of the law.





Would that be the law that the state is in charge of seeing is upheld?


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 11, 2010)

MrA said:


> > Originally Posted by scumsuckers
> > - Deport all the two million plus who are here illegally;
> >
> > - Deport all those who commit crimes and whose original nationality was not British;
> ...


So no they don't. Nothing in that says that they have a policy of compulsory non-white expulsion 

They have a policy of voluntary repatriation in line with long standing  Home office plans.


----------



## MrA (Jan 11, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> So no they don't. Nothing in that says that they have a policy of compulsory non-white expulsion
> 
> They have a policy of voluntary repatriation in line with long standing  Home office plans.



Really? You can't see it? 

They describe Britons as indigenous to these Isles or migrated from mainland Europe. That's white people isn't it? Answer=yes

Then they state

- Review all recent grants of residence or citizenship to ensure they are still appropriate;

Given the statement above what would you deduce from that?

Have you actually read the links? Do you know anything about the BNP at all?


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 11, 2010)

MrA said:


> Really? You can't see it?
> 
> They describe Britons as indigenous to these Isles or migrated from mainland Europe. That's white people isn't it? Answer=yes
> 
> ...



I think you are confusing them with another far right group


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 11, 2010)

They're made it explicitly clear that forcible/compulsory repatriation is a fantasy. Yes, i do know a fair few things about the BNP - this included.  You might want to choose better ground...


----------



## MrA (Jan 11, 2010)

The39thStep said:


> I think you are confusing them with another far right group



It's quoted from the BNP website. The confusion must be yours.



butchersapron said:


> They're made it explicitly clear that forcible/compulsory repatriation is a fantasy. Yes, i do know a fair few things about the BNP - this included.  You might want to choose better ground...




No I won't it's explicit in their website I can't see a line that states that all the above policies are fantasies. If they are why aren't they removed?


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 11, 2010)

It's not. Even offering grants to people to leave admits this.  You won't win this one.


----------



## MrA (Jan 11, 2010)

.....................


----------



## MrA (Jan 11, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> It's not. Even offering grants to people to leave admits this.  You won't win this one.



The original BNP policy was of forced repatriation, yes? Then it was changed after a poor election showing to "voluntary".
Now, why have a voluntary scheme when many non whites are settled here and many have well paid jobs and are very much British by nature and culture? Why review who is British and whether it is applicable under the definition of "indigenous British or European descent"?
Why make comparisons to India Pakistan and Saudi Arabia not "wanting" _whites_ or _Christians _in their counties? 

This, coupled with lies about non white crime and Islamification locally creates hatred, so would you say there's another agenda?

And please, don't patronise me regarding winning this one, it's you who are on dodgy ground.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 11, 2010)

No, you're wrong -you're wrong on actual policy and interpretation of policy. You, once again, emphasise this when you highlight 



> Then they state
> 
> - Review all recent grants of residence or citizenship to ensure they are still appropriate;



What does recent mean? How many black people does that apply to? Fuck all.


----------



## Gromit (Jan 11, 2010)

I thought that the BNP had some token black members. Who were all for Britain for those born in Britain get rid of these immigrants etc.

Or did I just imagine it?

ETA: Sorry it was the National Front not BNP.


----------



## MrA (Jan 11, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> No, you're wrong -you're wrong on actual policy and interpretation of policy. You, once again, emphasise this when you highlight
> 
> 
> 
> What does recent mean? How many black people does that apply to? Fuck all.



You'd have to ask Cyclops, but looking at their policies he's prepared to define British from the end of the last ice age, before British was even concieved . So left as it is it could be 40 to 50 years.

And why did you mention black people?     So unless you have a BNP definition of recent, you are still on dodgy ground.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 11, 2010)

You're wrong pal. Back pedal all you like.


----------



## trevhagl (Jan 11, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> So no they don't. Nothing in that says that they have a policy of compulsory non-white expulsion
> 
> They have a policy of voluntary repatriation in line with long standing  Home office plans.



and you trust em!!!!


----------



## MrA (Jan 11, 2010)

trevhagl said:


> and you trust em!!!!



Have you seen the home office guidelines? I have and Butchersapron clearly hasn't.


----------



## MrA (Jan 11, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> You're wrong pal. Back pedal all you like.



What? My position hasn't changed and yet you offer, well, nothing.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 11, 2010)

You argued the BNP position is compuslory expulsion of non whites whilst demonstrating that it's not. Stop picking at it.


----------



## Tacita (Jan 11, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> You argued the BNP position is compuslory expulsion of non whites whilst demonstrating that it's not. Stop picking at it.



but that's what he does, he did it on the housing thread. It's a classic troll.


----------



## MrA (Jan 11, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> You argued the BNP position is compuslory expulsion of non whites whilst demonstrating that it's not. Stop picking at it.



It is exactly what I said it was, compulsory. 

So tell me, as you see yourself as something of an expert, why have a volunatary scheme? IF one exists already and why review British citizenship?

We'll move onto the removal of rights for non Brit's as defined by the BNP in moment, 

*hint, the lever to encourage non whites to repatriate


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 11, 2010)

No, it's not. As you've demonstrated.


----------



## trevhagl (Jan 11, 2010)

the BNP on immigration are like New Labour on ID Cards - if they didn't get what they want by 'voluntary' means you can bet your house they would do it by compulsion


----------



## MrA (Jan 11, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> No, it's not. As you've demonstrated.



Lets play your game. 

1. If I redefine your citizenship.
2. Remove your rights as a citizen.
3. Spread selective lies about Asian and Black crime, creating hatred.

Would this be tantamount to coersion?


----------



## MrA (Jan 11, 2010)

Tacita said:


> but that's what he does, he did it on the housing thread. It's a classic troll.



You could have proved in on the other thread, you didn't so shut the fuck up.


----------



## MrA (Jan 11, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> No, it's not. As you've demonstrated.



http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8011878.stm

Care to explain this?


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 11, 2010)

Why should i? You're googling desperate.


----------



## Blagsta (Jan 11, 2010)

MrA said:


> You could have proved in on the other thread, you didn't so shut the fuck up.



lol 


give it up, you're out of your depth.  Again.


----------



## Y_I_Otter (Jan 11, 2010)

I think Griffin made the party's plan quite clear when he addressed a conference of American naz-- I mean, 'White Nationalists':



> There’s a difference between selling out your ideas and selling your ideas. And the BNP isn’t about selling out its ideas, which are your ideas, too, but we are determined now to sell them. That means basically to use the saleable words. As I say, freedom, security, identity, democracy. Nobody can criticize them. Nobody can come at you and attack you on those ideas. They are saleable.
> 
> ...
> 
> Perhaps one day, once—by being rather more subtle—we’ve got ourselves in a position where we control the British broadcasting media, the British people might change their mind and say, ‘Yes, every last one must go.’



Sounds fairly straight-forward to me what the party's long-term goals consist of and how they mean to achieve them.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 11, 2010)

MrA said:


> Some people have openly admited as much to me and I'm mixed race, they genuinely believe that they and the BNP aren't racist until I point out their policies regarding British Citizenship and non white _expulsion _, they have no idea that the BNP have these policies.


The BNP's policy is "voluntary repatriation" with financial inducements, IIRC. Something the Tories tried to sell back in the late 1980s and early 1990s.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 11, 2010)

MrA said:


> Lets play your game.
> 
> 1. If I redefine your citizenship.
> 2. Remove your rights as a citizen.
> ...



You ignore that any citizenship being investigated would be 'recent'.You fucked your self.


----------



## MrA (Jan 11, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> Why should i? You're googling desperate.



Then you've offered nothing.

What I aim to demonstrate is that the policy stated by the BNP as voluntary repatriation contradicts other aspects of the BNP manifesto. Maybe you don;t get that.

The link provided is an accurate account on who Nick believes are British, and I could also link to previous BNP policies on repatriation and non white status.


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 11, 2010)

trevhagl said:


> the BNP on immigration are like New Labour on ID Cards - if they didn't get what they want by 'voluntary' means you can bet your house they would do it by compulsion



whats wrong with ID cards?


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 11, 2010)

MrA said:


> Then you've offered nothing.
> 
> What I aim to demonstrate is that the policy stated by the BNP as voluntary repatriation contradicts other aspects of the BNP manifesto. Maybe you don;t get that.
> 
> The link provided is an accurate account on who Nick believes are British, and I could also link to previous BNP policies on repatriation and non white status.



we all make mistakes , just admit that you were wrong and move on


----------



## MrA (Jan 11, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> The BNP's policy is "voluntary repatriation" with financial inducements, IIRC. Something the Tories tried to sell back in the late 1980s and early 1990s.



Quite right, and the  home office policy  clearly states;

_1. General
1.1 Section 29 of the Immigration Act 1971 enables financial assistance to be given towards the travel costs of persons (if this in their best interests) *who are neither:*
• *British citizens*, nor
• *Commonwealth citizens* with the right of abode under s.2(1)(b) of the 1971
Act, as amended by s.39(1) of the British Nationality Act 1981, and who
• wish to leave the country permanently_

So there's a hint of suspicion regarding the BNP redefinition of Britishness.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 11, 2010)

MrA said:


> Then you've offered nothing.
> 
> What I aim to demonstrate is that the policy stated by the BNP as voluntary repatriation contradicts other aspects of the BNP manifesto. Maybe you don;t get that.
> 
> The link provided is an accurate account on who Nick believes are British, and I could also link to previous BNP policies on repatriation and non white status.



You said the BNP has  a policy of complusory expulsion of non-whites. We demonstrated (with your help) that they don't.


----------



## MrA (Jan 11, 2010)

The39thStep said:


> we all make mistakes , just admit that you were wrong and move on



Show me where I was wrong?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 11, 2010)

MrA said:


> Yes they do
> 
> The BNP’s policy is to:



You're doing their work for them by misrepresenting them.
As I'm sure you're aware, when they say "deport illegals" they mean *all* illegals, regardless of skin colour, just as when they say "Deport all those who commit crimes and whose original nationality was not British" they mean a system like the Yanks, where *any* foreign national, regardless of their "race", can be deported once they've served their sentence. The UK already does this for illegals who've committed criminal acts, by the way.
Also, as I've said previously, the whole "financial inducements to leave isn't even their baby, it's a tory one that is still, I believe, on the statute books from nigh on 20 years ago.

Misrepresenting them as some sort of uniquely evil organisation is foolish. Expose them for cunts by all means, but do so with accuracy or they can make political capital out of such misrepresentations.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 11, 2010)

MrA said:


> Quite right, and the  home office policy  clearly states;
> 
> _1. General
> 1.1 Section 29 of the Immigration Act 1971 enables financial assistance to be given towards the travel costs of persons (if this in their best interests) *who are neither:*
> ...


 
.and how nmay RECENT awardees do you think this covers? You fucked yourself.


----------



## MrA (Jan 11, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> You ignore that any citizenship being investigated would be 'recent'.You fucked your self.



Recent is a moot point, blacks and asians aren't British.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 11, 2010)

MrA said:


> Recent is a moot point, blacks and asians aren't British.



It's not moot it's central. And it's what you fucked up on.


----------



## MrA (Jan 11, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> You're doing their work for them by misrepresenting them.
> As I'm sure you're aware, when they say "deport illegals" they mean *all* illegals, regardless of skin colour, just as when they say "Deport all those who commit crimes and whose original nationality was not British" they mean a system like the Yanks, where *any* foreign national, regardless of their "race", can be deported once they've served their sentence. The UK already does this for illegals who've committed criminal acts, by the way.
> Also, as I've said previously, the whole "financial inducements to leave isn't even their baby, it's a tory one that is still, I believe, on the statute books from nigh on 20 years ago.
> 
> Misrepresenting them as some sort of uniquely evil organisation is foolish. Expose them for cunts by all means, but do so with accuracy or they can make political capital out of such misrepresentations.



I can clealry see that the policy as written states, "voluntary" with financial inducements, perhaps I would have been better served by accepting this and then moving on to show that I believe it is a cover for another agenda.

I do get bogged down in semantics sometimes.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 11, 2010)

MrA said:


> It is exactly what I said it was, compulsory.


You'd be better off knowing your history.
Griffin's BNP hasn't had a policy of "compulsory expulsion of non-whites". Even Tyndall's BNP didn't, given that both incarnations wanted to get rid of "wops", "dagoes", "spics" and "yids" as well as those from the African and Indian continents and the West Indies.
IIRC the NF were the last fascist group to have a policy that explicitly called for the forcible repatriation of non-whites, and even they never closely defined what they actually mean by "non-white".


> So tell me, as you see yourself as something of an expert, why have a volunatary scheme? IF one exists already and why review British citizenship?


Two issues:
1) There's already a voluntary scheme, and it's rather pathetic. It was originally funded to cover around five figures' worth of applicants per year, but has only ever reached a couple of thousand in any year, and tends only to do so because it's a cheap way of getting your household goods shipped "back home" for those planning to do so anyway for their retirement! 
2) They can't review recent grants of citizenship. There's no mechanism to do so, and under the ECHR *any* political party would have a hard job legislating one.


> We'll move onto the removal of rights for non Brit's as defined by the BNP in moment,
> 
> *hint, the lever to encourage non whites to repatriate



It's not compulsory, and any "encouragement" that exceeds legislative bounds is actionable.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 11, 2010)

Gromit said:


> I thought that the BNP had some token black members. Who were all for Britain for those born in Britain get rid of these immigrants etc.
> 
> Or did I just imagine it?
> 
> ETA: Sorry it was the National Front not BNP.



Which rather goes against their beloved chant of "the National Front is a white man's front...". )


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 11, 2010)

trevhagl said:


> the BNP on immigration are like New Labour on ID Cards - if they didn't get what they want by 'voluntary' means you can bet your house they would do it by compulsion



nly within the bounds of law, unless they want the humiliation of being shown up before the European Court of Human Rights at every turn, even in the case of non-British nationals.


----------



## Tacita (Jan 11, 2010)

MrA said:


> I can clealry see that the policy as written states, "voluntary" with financial inducements, perhaps I would have been better served by accepting this and then moving on to show that I believe it is a cover for another agenda.
> 
> I do get bogged down in semantics sometimes.



thank fuck for that


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jan 11, 2010)

MrA said:


> BNP What did your last slave die of?


thankyou.

ps. Lemierre's disease.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 11, 2010)

MrA said:


> Recent is a moot point, blacks and asians aren't British.



In most cases if they're not born in the UK they're Commonwealth citizens, and if they're born here they *are* British, as unlike France and Germany, we haven't been *quite* so active in withholding subject-hood/citizenship from people born here whose parents legally reside here.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 11, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> thankyou.
> 
> ps. Lemierre's disease.



I heard it was the French Disease.


----------



## MrA (Jan 11, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> You'd be better off knowing your history.
> Griffin's BNP hasn't had a policy of "compulsory expulsion of non-whites". Even Tyndall's BNP didn't, given that both incarnations wanted to get rid of "wops", "dagoes", "spics" and "yids" as well as those from the African and Indian continents and the West Indies.
> IIRC the NF were the last fascist group to have a policy that explicitly called for the forcible repatriation of non-whites, and even they never closely defined what they actually mean by "non-white".



I'm sure that prior to  1999  the BNP had a forced repatriation policy in their manifesto. 



> Two issues:
> 1) There's already a voluntary scheme, and it's rather pathetic. It was originally funded to cover around five figures' worth of applicants per year, but has only ever reached a couple of thousand in any year, and tends only to do so because it's a cheap way of getting your household goods shipped "back home" for those planning to do so anyway for their retirement!



Only open to non Brits and non commonwealth citizens though.



> 2) They can't review recent grants of citizenship. There's no mechanism to do so, and under the ECHR *any* political party would have a hard job legislating one.



OK, 



> It's not compulsory, and any "encouragement" that exceeds legislative bounds is actionable.



There's little chance of the BNP achieving power, but their policy states that they would redefine British Citizenship, they're on record on who they feel are British or not and they are on record as stating that non Brit's would be 2nd class citizens. This amounts to "encouragement" to volunteer in my view.


----------



## MrA (Jan 11, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> In most cases if they're not born in the UK they're Commonwealth citizens, and if they're born here they *are* British, as unlike France and Germany, we haven't been *quite* so active in withholding subject-hood/citizenship from people born here whose parents legally reside here.



Quite right, under the BNP however even those born here would not be regarded as British.


----------



## MrA (Jan 11, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> You said the BNP has  a policy of complusory expulsion of non-whites. We demonstrated (with your help) that they don't.



OK the BNP has an _agenda_ for compulsory expulsion of non whites. Better?


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 11, 2010)

Nope.


----------



## MrA (Jan 11, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> Nope.





Tough.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 11, 2010)

Explain yourself


----------



## MrA (Jan 11, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> Explain yourself



The British National Party stands for the preservation of the national and ethnic character of the British people and is wholly opposed to any form of racial integration between British and non-European peoples. It is therefore committed to stemming and reversing the tide of non-white immigration and to restoring, *by legal changes, negotiation and consent,* the overwhelmingly white make up of the British population that existed in Britain prior to 1948.

The BNP's 2005 general election manifesto called for white British people to be given preference in jobs, housing and education which would see ethnic minorities become second-class citizens under the law.

THe BNP believe that non whites cannot be British. *by legal changes, negotiation and consent,* 

The BNP would offer generous financial inducements to people of foreign decent to be *voluntarily *repatriated to their country of origin, this given everything else, _I believe_, is tantamount to making it compulsory.

The BNP's mini manifesto is the 2005 general election manifesto with some of the secondary measures removed.

The BNP selectively reporting non white crimes, creating an atmosphere of hatred and intolerance.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 11, 2010)

Yep.You're wrong when you claim that the BNP position is complusory expulsion of non-whites. Everything you post hammers those nails home. You can back off (lose face) or carry on (loose bigger face).


----------



## MrA (Jan 11, 2010)

Officially their position is of voluntary repatriation. I am not disagreeing with that, nor did I intend to make that argument, I should have been more clear.

What I am saying, however, is that their position on the status of non-Whites as British citizens (or lack thereof) means that should they come to power these non-White citizens - who according to Nick Griffin - do not even exist would no longer be counted as legal citizens. As non-citizens they would no longer be legal residents and the laws protecting them from involuntary repatriation would no longer apply. Leaving the BNP to kick them out of the country at will - since they are not citizens they do not have the right to stay.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 11, 2010)

'Recent' - do you read what you tell us to read?


----------



## MrA (Jan 11, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> 'Recent' - do you read what you tell us to read?



................


----------



## trevhagl (Jan 11, 2010)

i think rather than arguing with each other it would be easier settling on a common denominator ie that the BNP are CUNTS and it doesn't really matter how well they hide it


----------



## MrA (Jan 11, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> 'Recent' - do you read what you tell us to read?



The BNP wishes to return the ethnic makeup of the British Isles to that prior to 1948. Therefore my position is that recent means back to 1948.

Do you have a better explanation? You haven't offered one yet.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 11, 2010)

Don't need to.


----------



## MrA (Jan 11, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> Don't need to.



Do you contend that the BNP wouldn't repatriate non whites? Or are you keeping to your cop out?


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 11, 2010)

Your claim that the BNP support forcible expulsion of non-whites = gone. Say something Mr.


----------



## MrA (Jan 11, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> Your claim that the BNP support forcible expulsion of non-whites = gone. Say something Mr.



Their recent mini manifesto doesn't "appear" to support forcible repatriation, however there is plenty of underlying evidence to show that they do, their last full manifesto is explicit on the cirtizenship of non whites and their 1997 manifesto is explicit on the forcible repatriation of non whites.

And as YI Otter has posted, Nick is on record as saying that this is ultimate agenda.


Let me ask you a question, I've been reviewing some of your old threads and posts regarding the BNP they _appear_ to be neutral at best.

What is your position regarding the BNP? Just so I know what I'm dealing with.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 11, 2010)

So you're wrong and you finally admit it  - yes?

Yes,i'm in the BNP and am a white nationalist. Review a bit deeper.


----------



## trevhagl (Jan 11, 2010)

dear dear my attempts at peace keeping didn't go well did they? Maybe Tony Blair can get me a job


----------



## MrA (Jan 11, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> So you're wrong and you finally admit it  - yes?
> 
> Yes,i'm in the BNP and am a white nationalist. Review a bit deeper.



I won't admit anything, I believe I have made myself clear, eventually.

Do you believe that the BNP do not have an agenda to repatriate non whites?


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 11, 2010)

You failed to uncover my pro-bnp sympathies though trev


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 11, 2010)

MrA said:


> I won't admit anything, I believe I have made myself clear, eventually.
> 
> Do you believe that the BNP do not have an agenda to repatriate non whites?



Run run run runaway...

Seriously, just admit that you got it wrong, no need to poison everything else.


----------



## MrA (Jan 11, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> Run run run runaway...
> 
> Seriously, just admit that you got it wrong, no need to poison everything else.



 You were too easy.....  

I don't know if you are secretly pro BNP, but you sure have an odd way of showing that you're not.

Night night it's late here.


----------



## MrA (Jan 11, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> You failed to uncover my pro-bnp sympathies though trev



Did I say that? erm, no. Looks like another divert to  me though,


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 11, 2010)

Maybe i am BNP?


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 11, 2010)

MrA said:


> Did I say that? erm, no. Looks like another divert to  me though,


Yeah, you did:


> MrA said:
> 
> 
> > Let me ask you a question, I've been reviewing some of your old threads and posts regarding the BNP they _appear_ to be neutral at best.
> ...


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 11, 2010)

LLETSA said:


> Yes indeed. Calling on the state to imprison Nick Griffin is clearly the height of working class political consciousness.



That is fantasy. I did not call on the state to imprison Griffin. 

That is more of your straw man stupidity.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 11, 2010)

The39thStep said:


> the alternative course of action argued by the same poster was to bring some fictitious  mob in to do Griffin over.



DOh, yet more straw man stupidity to cover your lack of politics

Lies now is it. Yet more Bullshit from the depressed ultra left.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 11, 2010)

trevhagl said:


> and you trust em!!!!



Quite. Well put Trev.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 11, 2010)

Y_I_Otter said:


> I think Griffin made the party's plan quite clear when he addressed a conference of American naz-- I mean, 'White Nationalists':
> 
> 
> 
> Sounds fairly straight-forward to me what the party's long-term goals consist of and how they mean to achieve them.



Well written


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 11, 2010)

trevhagl said:


> i think rather than arguing with each other it would be easier settling on a common denominator ie that the BNP are CUNTS and it doesn't really matter how well they hide it



Yup


----------



## Citizen66 (Jan 11, 2010)

You can argue 'til you're blue in the face about what the manifesto does and doesn't say about repatriation and you can only attack them on what their policies are but that also involves taking them at face value... which... errr


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 11, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> You failed to uncover my pro-bnp sympathies though trev



It is easy to see where that p.o.v. can come from though isn't it.

All you seem to do is big up their policy and say how effective they are.

It is not suprising when you read it to assume that you are an apologist for them, as you keep the ANTI BNP part so very well hidden.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 11, 2010)

Where have i bigged up the BNP policy on anything? Please, don't do this.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 11, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> Where have i bigged up the BNP policy on anything? Please, don't do this.



Posts of yours such as this one;
http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=10177145&postcount=76

This post,  found without much effort, is your typical non committal description of their policy. You do not condemn it, you describe it. I do not think that is radical at all. It certainly is not opposed to the BNP policy IN THAT POST OF YOURS is it? 

Now, I admit we need to know what they ARE saying but I do not think such lack of opposition to them helps at all. 

I've said similar things before, merely reflecting what the BNP are saying and bigging it up (not only you) is not radical politics. 'Bigging it up' here is a descriptive term I use to label 'non oppositional description of the BNP and saying how effective the BNP are' when I see it.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 11, 2010)

Do click that link people -it's amazing.

I ask again



> Where have i bigged up the BNP policy on anything? Please, don't do this.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 11, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> *This post, found without much effort, is your typical non committal description of their policy. You do not condemn it, you describe it.*



Do more of this.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 11, 2010)

You gone wierd Butch, your point is lost in cyberspace (if there was a point btw). 

In short, non committal description of BNP policy IS misleading. It looks like apology, in some cases, when describing the BNP and how effective they are you appear to be cheerleading them (not only you). As other people have spotted this, surely then you can see that that approach leads to these impressions. I'm saying this not to have a go at you personally (but of course the impression is otherwise).


----------



## Random (Jan 11, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> In short, non committal description of BNP policy IS misleading. It looks like apology, in some cases, when describing the BNP and how effective they are you appear to be cheerleading them (not only you). As other people have spotted this, surely then you can see that that approach leads to these impressions. I'm saying this not to have a go at you personally (but of course the impression is otherwise).


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 11, 2010)




----------



## The39thStep (Jan 11, 2010)

MrA said:


> Show me where I was wrong?


 out

you're out, just walk,even the third umpire wants you to walk


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 11, 2010)

Problem is misleading inaccurate descriptions of the BNP are just as bad (if not worse) as non-committal "desribing" of them. If you want to understand your enemy you need to understand them and not just a 1940s caricature of them.


----------



## Citizen66 (Jan 11, 2010)

frogwoman said:


> Problem is misleading inaccurate descriptions of the BNP are just as bad (if not worse) as non-committal "desribing" of them. If you want to understand your enemy you need to understand them and not just a 1940s caricature of them.



Well sure, but is the right way just to parrot their manifesto at face value?

Griffin has softened the party line to widen their appeal. Is that evidence that his ultimate aims have actually changed to those stated on the manifesto? Did the Tories mention that they were planning on breaking the unions via the miner's strike on their manifesto? I'd say caricatures are pretty helpful in reminding us of where people truly sit on the political landscape. Manifestos are a toned down veneer.


----------



## MrA (Jan 12, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> Yeah, you did:






			
				Me said:
			
		

> Let me ask you a question, I've been reviewing some of your old threads and posts regarding the BNP they *appear *to be *neutral *at best.




And I asked you for your position, if I have impleid that you're a BNP sympathiser and you;re not, then I'll apologise unreservedly. But you have to admit, even after I conceded the point on explicit policy you still have been vague.

So what is your position on the BNP, do you believe that the BNP do not have an agenda to repatriate non whites? I'm interested to know your views and why?


----------



## MrA (Jan 12, 2010)

The39thStep said:


> we all make mistakes , just admit that you were wrong and move on



I conceded the point on policy here. I admit to being blickered to the obvious regarding the wording.

But I still maintain that when you pick throught their mini manifesto, the last election manifesto and their constitution there is at best an agenda for non white repatriation or, as I believe, it is their policy to repatriate non whites.

I'd be happy for you or butchers to actually post someting that contradicts this other than, "no it isn't", after all this is a discussion board and if there's a compelling reason why I am wrong then I'm happy to concede it.

If this about "winning" over the incorrect use of the statement "BNP policy for repatriation" by me then great you win.


----------



## MrA (Jan 12, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> You gone wierd Butch, your point is lost in cyberspace (if there was a point btw).
> 
> In short, non committal description of BNP policy IS misleading. It looks like apology, in some cases, when describing the BNP and how effective they are you appear to be cheerleading them (not only you). As other people have spotted this, surely then you can see that that approach leads to these impressions. I'm saying this not to have a go at you personally (but of course the impression is otherwise).



I've only been here a short while and I really don't know Butchersapron, but as a newcomer reading his post on this thread I hope he can understand my confusion at his position on the BNP because of his reticence to elaborate.

It was only after Violentpanda responded to my intial posts pointing out that the stated policy of the BNP was not the _forced _repatriation of non whites did the penny for for me. I'd being persuing a false point, I have conceded that. When I went on to make the case I should have at the start regarding the BNP underlying intent I thought he'd accept my concession in good faith and take it form there.


----------



## JimW (Jan 12, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> In short, non committal description of BNP policy IS misleading. It looks like apology, in some cases, when describing the BNP and how effective they are you appear to be cheerleading them (not only you)...



Perhaps we should precede any political discussion with a quote from the collected works or a loyalty dance, just in case any hard-of-thinking are tuning in. Jesus wept.


----------



## MrA (Jan 12, 2010)

JimW said:


> Perhaps we should precede any political discussion with a quote from the collected works or a loyalty dance, just in case any hard-of-thinking are tuning in. Jesus wept.



It would be easier to have a position to start from, particulary if it's requested, clears up any misunderstandings in the long run.


----------



## goldenecitrone (Jan 12, 2010)

MrA said:


> It was only after Violentpanda responded to my intial posts pointing out that the stated policy of the BNP was not the _forced _repatriation of non whites did the penny for for me. I'd being persuing a false point, I have conceded that.



You'll get a lot more sense out of Violentpanda on these boards than you will out of Apron who, even though he may seem a bit ambivalent on the subject, is certainly no apologist for the BNP.


----------



## trevhagl (Jan 12, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> It is easy to see where that p.o.v. can come from though isn't it.
> 
> All you seem to do is big up their policy and say how effective they are.
> 
> It is not suprising when you read it to assume that you are an apologist for them, as you keep the ANTI BNP part so very well hidden.



this i always found odd esp when he supports an ex AFA party


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 12, 2010)

JimW said:


> Perhaps we should precede any political discussion with a quote from the collected works or a loyalty dance, just in case any hard-of-thinking are tuning in. Jesus wept.



Jesus did indeed weep, sobbing about left arrogance. 

You cannot assume people reading a bulletin board are knowledgeable about the political affiliations, history and beliefs of people posting. Thus, by all means keep your analysis but INCLUDE some opposition then people can clearly see the point of the discussion. Simple. (that was my meercat.com impression btw).


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 12, 2010)

trevhagl said:


> this i always found odd esp when he supports an ex AFA party



Its jus arrogance I fink Trev.


----------



## MrA (Jan 12, 2010)

goldenecitrone said:


> You'll get a lot more sense out of Violentpanda on these boards than you will out of Apron who, even though he may seem a bit ambivalent on the subject, is certainly no apologist for the BNP.




I just got the impression he was trying to score cheap points to "win" some kind of forum contest.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 12, 2010)

Hang on, you accuse me of being a BNP supporter after i had to point out to you that you were wrong about BNP policy and somehow i'm in the wrong? You call me a racist and i'm the one whose has to make amends?


----------



## JimW (Jan 12, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> Jesus did indeed weep, sobbing about left arrogance.
> 
> You cannot assume people reading a bulletin board are knowledgeable about the political affiliations, history and beliefs of people posting. Thus, by all means keep your analysis but INCLUDE some opposition then people can clearly see the point of the discussion. Simple. (that was my meercat.com impression btw).



It's far more arrogant to presume everyone but you is too thick to follow an argument without subtitles. A post on what the content of BNP policy actually is will be either right or wrong regardless of the motivations for making it; if you want to add analysis in your own comment go ahead, but the idea you can't make a statement of fact without some _auto da fe_ to accompany is bollocks IMO.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 12, 2010)

trevhagl said:


> this i always found odd esp when he supports an ex AFA party



Makes perfect sense if you think about it. Go on.


----------



## MrA (Jan 12, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> Hang on, you accuse me of being a BNP supporter after i had to point out to you that you were wrong about BNP policy and somehow i'm in the wrong? You call me a racist and i'm the one whose has to make amends?



I implied that you might be a BNP sympathiser and qualified that with I could be wrong but you hid it well by being evasive.

Please post where I called you a racist and I'll retract it.

And I accepted quite a while back that I was wrong about the policy and tried to expand on it. You seemed more concerned about scoring a points win. If anything _I_ was trying to make amends.


----------



## MrA (Jan 12, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> Makes perfect sense if you think about it. Go on.



Then why don't explain why it makes perfect sense? Because to some of us it doesn't.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 12, 2010)

Explain what?


----------



## MrA (Jan 12, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> Explain what?



This and this





			
				MrA said:
			
		

> And I asked you for your position, if I have implied that you're a BNP sympathiser and you;re not, then I'll apologise unreservedly. But you have to admit, even after I conceded the point on explicit policy you still have been vague.
> 
> So what is your position on the BNP, do you believe that the BNP do not have an agenda to repatriate non whites? I'm interested to know your views and why?


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 12, 2010)

Explain what? Your post and someone elses?

Face it, i'm not going to add a disclaimer to my posts - you either get the sense of where i'm coming from by using your own critical faculties or you don't.


----------



## trevhagl (Jan 12, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> Makes perfect sense if you think about it. Go on.



makes perfect sense playing down the seriousness of nazi policy? Come on be honest if they ever got power do you think they would settle for VOLUNTARY repatriation? Say all the asians etc REFUSED the deal, would they just then say "oh ok, fair enough we'll leave you alone" ?


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 12, 2010)

trevhagl said:


> makes perfect sense playing down the seriousness of nazi policy? Come on be honest if they ever got power do you think they would settle for VOLUNTARY repatriation? Say all the asians etc REFUSED the deal, would they just then say "oh ok, fair enough we'll leave you alone" ?



You what?




			
				you said:
			
		

> this i always found odd esp when he supports an ex AFA party



What about my position do you not get? Given that, as you have it -"he supports an ex AFA party"? Do you think maybe my politics follow on an are linked to what you're talking about?


----------



## MrA (Jan 12, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> Explain what? Your post and someone elses?
> 
> Face it, i'm not going to add a disclaimer to my posts - you either get the sense of where i'm coming from by using your own critical faculties or you don't.



If there's genuine confusion and clarification is asked for, why be a pompous arsehole by being evasive? You came across like a high and mighty prick to me, that may be a complete misunderstanding on my part, but even when I tried to be conciliatory and ask you to help me out by giving clarification you flatly refused.

I _still_ get the _impression _that you have BNP sympathies, reading your post it would be nigh on impossible to guage your position even with the best of critical faculties as you put it.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 12, 2010)

Evasive? Not seeing the need to give you my political history on demand is evasive? Everyone is evasive under these terms.

Not my problem if your political radar is fucked up.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 12, 2010)

MrA said:


> I'm sure that prior to  1999  the BNP had a forced repatriation policy in their manifesto.


Not quite, they had the possibility of a forced repatriation programme as a concomitant of a failed voluntary repatriation programme, but it was never actually enshrined in the BNP's constitution in the way voluntary repatriation was.
That's the thing with manifestos: They're not promises. 


> Only open to non Brits and non commonwealth citizens though.


That was the '71 act, IIRC. I'm talking about the one Thatch did that offered money to Commonwealthers to "go home".


> OK,
> 
> 
> 
> There's little chance of the BNP achieving power, but their policy states that they would redefine British Citizenship, they're on record on who they feel are British or not and they are on record as stating that non Brit's would be 2nd class citizens. This amounts to "encouragement" to volunteer in my view.


The point being that they can only "re-define" within the limitations of those international agreements (The EDHR and the UNDHR) that we're signatories to. Can you see any government that attempted to remove those protections wholesale being allowed to stand, either parliamentarily or extra-parliamentarily? I can't.


----------



## Boppity (Jan 12, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> Evasive? Not seeing the need to give you my political history on demand is evasive? Everyone is evasive under these terms.
> 
> Not my problem if your political radar is fucked up.



It's hardly an unreasonable request. You're acting like he's asked you for your entire medical history.

A polite enquiry into the politics of someone that you're discussing politics with makes perfect sense.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 12, 2010)

MrA said:


> Quite right, under the BNP however even those born here would not be regarded as British.



Well, to be fair, under my benevolent dictatorship, I wouldn't regard members (past or present) or supporters of/voters for the BNP as British, and would seek to deport them to a neutral territory.

The Isle of Lundy, say.


----------



## Boppity (Jan 12, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> Well, to be fair, under my benevolent dictatorship, I wouldn't regard members (past or present) or supporters of/voters for the BNP as British, and would seek to deport them to a neutral territory.
> 
> The Isle of Lundy, say.



I knew a BNP supporter who told me that since I am mixed race, I (and all other 'ambiguously' mixed people) should be repatriated to Sierra Leone.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 12, 2010)

Bippitybop said:


> It's hardly an unreasonable request. You're acting like he's asked you for your entire medical history.
> 
> A polite enquiry into the politics of someone that you're discussing politics with makes perfect sense.



Nope, i don't need to produce _bona fides_ on demand.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 12, 2010)

MrA said:


> The BNP wishes to return the ethnic makeup of the British Isles to that prior to 1948. Therefore my position is that recent means back to 1948.


By 1948 we'd had North African, sub-Saharan African, East African and West African, Canton and Manchu Chinese, West Indian, Laskar and Malay communities (small, to be sure) in Britain for at least 100 years.
The BNP are, and ever shall be, ahistoric fuckwits.


----------



## Boppity (Jan 12, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> Nope, i don't need to produce _bona fides_ on demand.



I didn't say you were obliged to respond, just that his request wasn't as unreasonable as you're making it out to be.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 12, 2010)

MrA said:


> You were too easy.....
> 
> I don't know if you are secretly pro BNP, but you sure have an odd way of showing that you're not.
> 
> Night night it's late here.



You shouldn't take argument against incorrect assertions as indications of support for what is being argued. That way lies primary-school playground fights.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 12, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> It is easy to see where that p.o.v. can come from though isn't it.
> 
> All you seem to do is big up their policy and say how effective they are.
> 
> It is not suprising when you read it to assume that you are an apologist for them, as you keep the ANTI BNP part so very well hidden.



The idea, when deploying a scalpel to surgically dissect an opponent, is not, as you appear to have done, to start with stabbing yourself with the aforementioned scalpel.

_Oy_ fucking _vey_. The _meshuggas_ is strong in this one!


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 12, 2010)

Bippitybop said:


> I didn't say you were obliged to respond, just that his request wasn't as unreasonable as you're making it out to be.



So what? I choose not to respond and thusly highligh the nature of such idicoy. Show me your ID card.

_Prove to me that you're not BNP_ Do fuck off.


----------



## LLETSA (Jan 12, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> Posts of yours such as this one;
> http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=10177145&postcount=76
> 
> This post,  found without much effort, is your typical non committal description of their policy. You do not condemn it, you describe it. I do not think that is radical at all. It certainly is not opposed to the BNP policy IN THAT POST OF YOURS is it?
> ...





The BNP are cunts and need to be told so through megaphones all the time.

Is that better?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 12, 2010)

Citizen66 said:


> Well sure, but is the right way just to parrot their manifesto at face value?
> 
> Griffin has softened the party line to widen their appeal. Is that evidence that his ultimate aims have actually changed to those stated on the manifesto? Did the Tories mention that they were planning on breaking the unions via the miner's strike on their manifesto? I'd say caricatures are pretty helpful in reminding us of where people truly sit on the political landscape. Manifestos are a toned down veneer.


right. so the bnp are a party where we all know what they want to do and their public pronouncements on their policies are therefore absolutely worthless.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 12, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> Jesus did indeed weep, sobbing about left arrogance.



No, he wept because some establishment cock-suckers had got their imperialist buddies to give him a prolonged execution.

Really, doctor, ignoring the established literature to make a rather cheap political point should be beneath you.


----------



## Larry O'Hara (Jan 12, 2010)

I see the standard of debate here has hardly improved, thus justifying my decision to post very little (if at all).  There is a complex and sophisticated debate to be had about the relationship between BNP policy statements and their core ideology, and Griffin's 'war of position'.  Sadly, the very fact this thread has descended into inane know-nothings asking Butcher's Apron to 'prove' he is not a fascist tells me all I need to know about the capacity of U75 to entertain serious reasoned debate.  Or not...As you were,...


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 12, 2010)

MrA said:


> I just got the impression he was trying to score cheap points to "win" some kind of forum contest.



IMO it's less about "cheap points" and more about trying to ensure that incorrect "mythologies" about what is or isn't BNP policy aren't perpetuated. Now, Mr. Apron may be *slightly* D) less tolerant than me in terms of his expecting people to actually find out the facts rather than believe the fiction (I'm happy to "spoon-feed" people if they need it, probably because the combination of beta-blockers and "heavy artillery" opiates I'm prescribed keep me mellow ), but just about the last thing he's doing is "scoring points".


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 12, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> Hang on, you accuse me of being a BNP supporter after i had to point out to you that you were wrong about BNP policy and somehow i'm in the wrong? You call me a racist and i'm the one whose has to make amends?



Sind Sie oder haben Sie schon einmal ein Anhänger der ButchersFascismus?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 12, 2010)

Bippitybop said:


> I knew a BNP supporter who told me that since I am mixed race, I (and all other 'ambiguously' mixed people) should be repatriated to Sierra Leone.



Showing, once again, what ignorant tossers some racists are, as one can't be repatriated to a country unless one has actually come from there in the first place.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jan 12, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> Hang on, you accuse me of being a BNP supporter after i had to point out to you that you were wrong about BNP policy and somehow i'm in the wrong? You call me a racist and i'm the one whose has to make amends?



 I wonder why?


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 12, 2010)

Maybe i am BNP - maybe i'm a sleeper?


----------



## MrA (Jan 12, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> Nope, i don't need to produce _bona fides_ on demand.



Drama fucking queen. What's the point of discussion on a discussion board then?


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jan 12, 2010)

MrA said:


> Their recent mini manifesto doesn't "appear" to support forcible repatriation, however there is plenty of underlying evidence to show that they do, their last full manifesto is explicit on the cirtizenship of non whites and their 1997 manifesto is explicit on the forcible repatriation of non whites.
> 
> And as YI Otter has posted, Nick is on record as saying that this is ultimate agenda.
> 
> ...


plenty of underlying evidence 
http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=295431&page=2


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 12, 2010)

JimW said:


> It's far more arrogant to presume everyone but you is too thick to follow an argument without subtitles. A post on what the content of BNP policy actually is will be either right or wrong regardless of the motivations for making it; if you want to add analysis in your own comment go ahead, but the idea you can't make a statement of fact without some _auto da fe_ to accompany is bollocks IMO.



But then, your dry ultra left politics doesn't do 'human' does it.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 12, 2010)

MrA said:


> Drama fucking queen. What's the point of discussion on a discussion board then?


To discuss things. Don't see why i need to prove to you that i'm not BNP -and i won't. Esp after you went through my bins.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jan 12, 2010)

MrA said:


> Drama fucking queen. What's the point of discussion on a discussion board then?


Wasting your breath on this sectarian.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 12, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> Hang on, you accuse me of being a BNP supporter after i had to point out to you that you were wrong about BNP policy and somehow i'm in the wrong? You call me a racist and i'm the one whose has to make amends?



Look, if you appear like that then you cannot be surprised people may think that, and indeed post it. You cannot then drama queen and ask for apology as if you are in the right 100% all the time. That's jus arrogance.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 12, 2010)

trevhagl said:


> makes perfect sense playing down the seriousness of nazi policy? Come on be honest if they ever got power do you think they would settle for VOLUNTARY repatriation? Say all the asians etc REFUSED the deal, would they just then say "oh ok, fair enough we'll leave you alone" ?



This makes perfect sense to me Trev. 

Butch is doing his 'wilfully blind' approach to this I fink.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jan 12, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> Look, if you appear like that then you cannot be surprised people may think that, and indeed post it. You cannot then drama queen and ask for apology as if you are in the right 100% all the time. That's jus arrogance.



"you are in the right 100% all the time. That's jus arrogance." 

Nail on head. Complete sectarian. Obsessed.


----------



## MrA (Jan 12, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> By 1948 we'd had North African, sub-Saharan African, East African and West African, Canton and Manchu Chinese, West Indian, Laskar and Malay communities (small, to be sure) in Britain for at least 100 years.
> The BNP are, and ever shall be, ahistoric fuckwits.



Lets be clear, the BNP in power is a fantasy and there are international laws that would make most of their policies impossible. Any fringe party can make popularist or radical election promises in the knowledge that they'd never get to enact them. But it may influence some to support them as we have seen in recent years. By 1948 the non white population was tiny in comparison so it wouldn't be a bad yardstick for the BNP to use.



ViolentPanda said:


> You shouldn't take argument against incorrect assertions as indications of support for what is being argued. That way lies primary-school playground fights.



It's the manner in which it was done against lets say the way you made the same point.




butchersapron said:


> So what? I choose not to respond and thusly highligh the nature of such idicoy. Show me your ID card.
> 
> _Prove to me that you're not BNP_ Do fuck off.



Prick.... I asked you for your position, opinion, thoughts. You just made your self a self righteous cunt.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 12, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> The idea, when deploying a scalpel to surgically dissect an opponent, is not, as you appear to have done, to start with stabbing yourself with the aforementioned scalpel.
> 
> _Oy_ fucking _vey_. The _meshuggas_ is strong in this one!



 Surrealist gibberish doesn't win arguments VP.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jan 12, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> This makes perfect sense to me Trev.
> 
> Butch is doing his 'wilfully blind' approach to this I fink.


No, he's incapable of an open minded analysis.  It is his way, or the highway.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 12, 2010)

MrA said:


> Prick.... I asked you for your position, opinion, thoughts. You just made your self a self righteous cunt.


You went though all my posts and came up with the idea that i was BNP. That's your failing, not mine.


----------



## Random (Jan 12, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> The idea, when deploying a scalpel to surgically dissect an opponent, is not, as you appear to have done, to start with stabbing yourself with the aforementioned scalpel.
> 
> _Oy_ fucking _vey_. The _meshuggas_ is strong in this one!



there's an upside to the schwartz and a downside


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 12, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> You went though all my posts and came up with the idea that i was BNP. That's your failing, not mine.



But then we are back at square 1;

"It is easy to see where that p.o.v. can come from though isn't it.

All you seem to do is big up their policy and say how effective they are.

It is not suprising when you read it to assume that you are an apologist for them, as you keep the ANTI BNP part so very well hidden."


----------



## Random (Jan 12, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> But then, your dry ultra left politics doesn't do 'human' does it.



brave black handy, keeping everyone's spirits up by whistling a jolly tune


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 12, 2010)

Larry O'Hara said:


> I see the standard of debate here has hardly improved, thus justifying my decision to post very little (if at all).  There is a complex and sophisticated debate to be had about the relationship between BNP policy statements and their core ideology, and Griffin's 'war of position'.  Sadly, the very fact this thread has descended into inane know-nothings asking Butcher's Apron to 'prove' he is not a fascist tells me all I need to know about the capacity of U75 to entertain serious reasoned debate.  Or not...As you were,...



Hail Larry - you are 100% right all the time on everything.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 12, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> But then we are back at square 1;
> 
> "It is easy to see where that p.o.v. can come from though isn't it.
> 
> ...



This is why i'm taken seriously on the BNP and you're not.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 12, 2010)

Random said:


> brave black handy, keeping everyone's spirits up by whistling a jolly tune



If a political approach is not human it is worthless imho.

Ultra left shite both demands and deserves the dustbin of history.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 12, 2010)

Random said:


> brave black handy, keeping everyone's spirits up by whistling a jolly tune



Oh, 
when
napper tandy and
brave black handy

(next line yours)


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 12, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> This is why i'm taken seriously on the BNP and you're not.



You are not though.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jan 12, 2010)

MrA said:


> Lets be clear, the BNP in power is a fantasy and there are international laws that would make most of their policies impossible. Any fringe party can make popularist or radical election promises in the knowledge that they'd never get to enact them. But it may influence some to support them as we have seen in recent years. By 1948 the non white population was tiny in comparison so it wouldn't be a bad yardstick for the BNP to use.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wasting breath again.  "There is only ONE path to opposing fascism, and salvation,,,,,,,,," according to butchers, vp, pick etc.  "Anybody who does not follow this path is to be attacked, as in collusion with the state, or some other conspiracy theory."

Best off taking your own advice.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jan 12, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> This is why i'm taken seriously on the BNP and you're not.



By who Napolean?


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jan 12, 2010)

Larry O'Hara said:


> I see the standard of debate here has hardly improved, thus justifying my decision to post very little (if at all).  There is a complex and sophisticated debate to be had about the relationship between BNP policy statements and their core ideology, and Griffin's 'war of position'.  Sadly, the very fact this thread has descended into inane know-nothings asking Butcher's Apron to 'prove' he is not a fascist tells me all I need to know about the capacity of U75 to entertain serious reasoned debate.  Or not...As you were,...


Likewise.


----------



## JimW (Jan 12, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> Wasting breath again.  "There is only ONE path to opposing fascism, and salvation,,,,,,,,," according to butchers, vp, pick etc.  "Anybody who does not follow this path is to be attacked, as in collusion with the state, or some other conspiracy theory."
> 
> Best off taking your own advice.



So your problem is someone's got a coherent political position and can defend it? Envy is not an attractive quality in a person. Ask TBH, he's our expert on the human touch round here.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jan 12, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> Oh,
> when
> napper tandy and
> brave black handy
> ...



How old are you?


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 12, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> No, he wept because some establishment cock-suckers had got their imperialist buddies to give him a prolonged execution.
> 
> Really, doctor, ignoring the established literature to make a rather cheap political point should be beneath you.



I take no prisoners


----------



## MrA (Jan 12, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> This is why i'm taken seriously on the BNP and you're not.



You have got to be kidding, self adjulating as well as pompous.  
Don't tel me, you told a guy off once?


----------



## Blagsta (Jan 12, 2010)

MrA said:


> Drama fucking queen. What's the point of discussion on a discussion board then?



that's rich, coming from you!


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jan 12, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> You went though all my posts and came up with the idea that i was BNP. That's your failing, not mine.


 56,981 post's by Napolean. Yeah, sure he did.


----------



## Random (Jan 12, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> Oh,
> when
> napper tandy and
> brave black handy


 set sail on a redanblack boat
 The clouds were grey


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jan 12, 2010)

Blagsta said:


> that's rich, coming from you!



Fuck off you dult, the Butch Boy Wonder, is always at it.


----------



## Blagsta (Jan 12, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> Fuck off you dult, the Butch Boy Wonder, is always at it.



So is Mr A


----------



## Random (Jan 12, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> Fuck off you dult


  short for 'adult' iirc?


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 12, 2010)

JimW said:


> So your problem is someone's got a coherent political position and can defend it? Envy is not an attractive quality in a person. Ask TBH, he's our expert on the human touch round here.



TBH I think 'coherent political positions' are a fallacy and an illusion, an imaginary holy grail if you like. 

Infact, they are very often used by those without any base in the working class, those without any praxis, and without class struggle (and of course the IWCA is not class struggle). Outside of class struggle it is ALL worthless, 'a mere academic exercise' as Karl Marx said in the Theses on Feuerbach. 

You know, after all these years of quoting Marx I cannot remember how to spell 'Feuerbach', that's the human part of me admitting imperfection, as it should be.

The Theses for those who want to know;
http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1845/theses/index.htm


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jan 12, 2010)

JimW said:


> So your problem is someone's got a coherent political position and can defend it? Envy is not an attractive quality in a person. Ask TBH, he's our expert on the human touch round here.


So coherent a position, people think he's a fascist?


----------



## Random (Jan 12, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> You know, after all these years of quoting Marx I cannot remember how to spell 'Feuerbach', that's the human part of me admitting imperfection, as it should be.





> Tell me, in a world without pity
> Do you think what I'm askin's too much
> I just want something to hold on to
> And a little of that human touch



 A bit rich for an actual academic to tell other people off for being 'academic'.


----------



## mk12 (Jan 12, 2010)

The only people on here who've called Butchers a fascist are people who obviously feel bitter that he has destroyed their arguments over, and over, and over again.


----------



## Random (Jan 12, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> So coherent a position, people think he's a fascist?



I actually smiled at that; there, that's the human part of me admitting that. The cybord part of me sez nothing, though.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jan 12, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> TBH I think 'coherent political positions' are a fallacy and an illusion, an imaginary holy grail if you like.
> 
> Infact, they are very often used by those without any base in the working class, those without any praxis, and without class struggle (and of course the IWCA is not class struggle). Outside of class struggle it is ALL worthless, 'a mere academic exercise' as Karl Marx said in the Theses on Feuerbach.
> 
> ...


"Sectarian's are never wrong!!!!!!!!!"


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jan 12, 2010)

mk12 said:


> The only people on here who've called Butchers a fascist are people who obviously feel bitter that he has destroyed their arguments over, and over, and over again.


Like who? Where?


----------



## mk12 (Jan 12, 2010)

You, Attica and this MrA.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 12, 2010)

MrA said:


> You have got to be kidding, self adjulating as well as pompous.
> Don't tel me, you told a guy off once?



Quite. 

If other ultra leftists want further evidence look at what newcomers are saying eg. the poster "Bippitybop" 

http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=10181891&postcount=188

The experienced left politicos want a discussion 'their way', but open source doesn't do discussions like that. 

What the ultra leftists apparently want is a closed bulletin board where they can rant off to each other and back slap each other till their hearts content. 

Its bullshit folks. Old left shite that should have been in the dustbin of history in 1956, but still you arrogant fucks come out with the same old same old attitudes.* It would be sad if it wasn't so tragic.*


----------



## JimW (Jan 12, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> TBH I think 'coherent political positions' are a fallacy and an illusion, an imaginary holy grail if you like.


I'd agree, but the other side of the coin is spouting any old random bollocks is even less use.



The Black Hand said:


> Infact, they are very often used by those without any base in the working class, those without any praxis, and without class struggle (and of course the IWCA is not class struggle). Outside of class struggle it is ALL worthless, 'a mere academic exercise' as Karl Marx said in the Theses on Feuerbach.
> 
> You know, after all these years of quoting Marx I cannot remember how to spell 'Feuerbach', that's the human part of me admitting imperfection, as it should be.
> 
> ...



And this is that sort of bollocks, coupled with the arrogance you have a go at others for - you get to say who's in the class struggle and who isn't? Who isn't imperfect? We all know we are; it's you who's attributing bad motives to someone else - a long-term anti-fascist who you've got the fucking cheek to imply is a BNP apologist. If that's your touchy-feely human approach, shove it up your arse.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jan 12, 2010)

Random said:


> A bit rich for an actual academic to tell other people off for being 'academic'.



Maybe but he was right, about all the sectarian conspiracy theory nutter's such as BA, VP, Pick etc.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 12, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> TBH I think 'coherent political positions' are a fallacy and an illusion, an imaginary holy grail if you like.


i'm glad you've found a coherent position in which you can believe, and which others have long suspected was your view.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 12, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> Maybe but he was right, about all the sectarian conspiracy theory nutter's such as BA, VP, Pick etc.


conspiracy theory nutter's? which conspiracy theory? which nutter?


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 12, 2010)

mk12 said:


> The only people on here who've called Butchers a fascist are people who obviously feel bitter that he has destroyed their arguments over, and over, and over again.



Rubbish. I haven't noticed anybody calling Butch a fascist. I Didn't. I suggested he could be mistaken for an apologist for the BNP, but that is not calling him a fascist. That is describing his approach to the BNP, which gives rise to people thinking he is a BNP supporter. That's his problem and his politics problem. Not mine.


----------



## Random (Jan 12, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> Maybe but he was right, about all the sectarian conspiracy theory nutter's such as BA, VP, Pick etc.



you're obsessed!


----------



## Random (Jan 12, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> Rubbish. I haven't noticed anybody calling Butch a fascist. I Didn't. I suggested he could be mistaken for an apologist for the BNP, but that is not calling him a fascist. That is describing his approach to the BNP, which gives rise to people thinking he is a BNP supporter.


Thinking, but not calling.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 12, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> You know, after all these years of quoting Marx I cannot remember how to spell 'Feuerbach', that's the human part of me admitting imperfection, as it should be.


nurse! the straitjacket!


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jan 12, 2010)

mk12 said:


> You, Attica and this MrA.


I don't think MrA has stated BA is a fascist.

"Give me a link, or oppologise" as Napolean [BA] would say.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 12, 2010)

Random said:


> you're obsessed!



Nurse, the jews!


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 12, 2010)

Pickman's model said:


> i'm glad you've found a coherent position in which you can believe, and which others have long suspected was your view.



 If you can't say anything you'd better not post.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 12, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> I don't think MrA has stated BA is a fascist.
> 
> "Give me a link, or oppologise" as Napolean [BA] would say.



now, about this conspiracy theory you mentioned, perhaps you could say some more about that.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 12, 2010)

Pickman's model said:


> nurse! the straitjacket!


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 12, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> If you can't say anything you'd better not post.


doctor, heal thyself


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jan 12, 2010)

Pickman's model said:


> nurse! the straitjacket!


oh, fucking hell, it's the deluded one.

Go on, it's all the SWP's fault.

Is this one of those clown's who listen to you Napolean?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 12, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> Maybe but he was right, about all the sectarian conspiracy theory nutter's such as BA, VP, Pick etc.


returning to this post, could you explain it?


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 12, 2010)

mk12 said:


> The only people on here who've called Butchers a fascist are people who obviously feel bitter that he has destroyed their arguments over, and over, and over again.



Rubbish. All Butch has is ultra left shite, and not very convincing either, like a lot of the 'anarchist organisations'.

THe bigger problem is that you think he has, but that's your problem, not ours.


----------



## Random (Jan 12, 2010)

because the gaaaaang's aaaaaaallll heeeeerrreeeee


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 12, 2010)

Random said:


> A bit rich for an actual academic to tell other people off for being 'academic'.



If the shoe fits


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jan 12, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> Quite.
> 
> If other ultra leftists want further evidence look at what newcomers are saying eg. the poster "Bippitybop"
> 
> ...


Fucking spot on!  They've become, what they claim to detest.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 12, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> Maybe but he was right, about all the sectarian conspiracy theory nutter's such as BA, VP, Pick etc.





ResistanceMP3 said:


> oh, fucking hell, it's the deluded one.


you shouldn't talk about yourself like that


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 12, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> Fucking spot on!  They've become, what they claim to detest.


it must be a sad existence, being a cheerleader for tbh. at least it's not a competitive field of employment.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 12, 2010)

Pickman's model said:


> doctor, heal thyself



WTF are you playing at Pickman. 

I thought we smoked the pipes of peace and you've lapsed straight into war.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jan 12, 2010)

Random said:


> because the gaaaaang's aaaaaaallll heeeeerrreeeee



Random.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 12, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> Random.


so you can't say what you meant about 'nutter's' and conspiracy theory stuff.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 12, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> Fucking spot on!  They've become, what they claim to detest.



Well put.

That's the correct analysis of their behaviour, regardless of how libertarian they dress it up as.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 12, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> WTF are you playing at Pickman.
> 
> I thought we smoked the pipes of peace and you've lapsed straight into war.


a shot across your bows isn't war.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jan 12, 2010)

Pickman's model said:


> it must be a sad existence, being a cheerleader for tbh. at least it's not a competitive field of employment.


fucked off from this shit ages aggo. popped in today, and same old story. feel sorry for you sectarians.


----------



## Random (Jan 12, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> Well put.
> 
> That's the correct analysis of their behaviour, regardless of how libertarian they dress it up as.





> TBH I think 'coherent political positions' are a fallacy and an illusion, an imaginary holy grail if you like.



Sir, I salute your unerring inconsistency, you truly are a gravedigger to the Enlightenment anti-human tyranny of logic.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Jan 12, 2010)

What the apologist BA is up against; the faces of real anti-fascism.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 12, 2010)

Pickman's model said:


> it must be a sad existence, being a cheerleader for tbh. at least it's not a competitive field of employment.



Orly, I am doing well thankyou. Ignoring the anarchists actually gets you straight into doing good stuff, see here for this quick review of Mayday 4 from a new contact "Was quite impressed with issue 4 of Mayday, not only for originality but also personal input".  

Incidentally, I will send everybody (even Letsa and Butchers, i know you've bought one Pickman, but not Paul) a copy of *Mayday 4* for free(!) if they PM me a name/address. I have a few hundred copies I would rather were distributed than hang around.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 12, 2010)

Random said:


> Sir, I salute your unerring inconsistency, you truly are a gravedigger to the Enlightenment anti-human tyranny of logic.



There are different forms of logic, but the logic of class struggle is the best


----------



## Citizen66 (Jan 12, 2010)

Pickman's model said:


> right. so the bnp are a party where we all know what they want to do and their public pronouncements on their policies are therefore absolutely worthless.



Well no, of course not. But, policies aside, Griffin is on record as a Holocaust denier and has connections with the KKK so the piss and wind in their manifesto should be viewed in the right context.


----------



## rioted (Jan 12, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> What the ultra leftists apparently want is a closed bulletin board where they can rant off to each other and back slap each other till their hearts content.[/B]


Didn't work.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Jan 12, 2010)

Coherent and totalising are not the same thing. One is acheivable, albeit in a circumscribed and temporary manner, the other is not.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## Random (Jan 12, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> Orly, I am doing well thankyou. Ignoring the anarchists actually gets you straight into doing good stuff, see here for this quick review of Mayday 4 from a new contact "Was quite impressed with issue 4 of Mayday, not only for originality but also personal input".
> 
> Incidentally, I will send everybody (even Letsa and Butchers, i know you've bought one Pickman, but not Paul) a copy of *Mayday 4* for free(!) if they PM me a name/address. I have a few hundred copies I would rather were distributed than hang around.



I love the way you couple a claim of success with the aside that you've got hundreds of unsold copies of your magazine hanging around your house and slowly turning into mulch.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 12, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> fucked off from this shit ages aggo. popped in today, and same old story. feel sorry for you sectarians.



True.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 12, 2010)

Random said:


> I love the way you couple a claim of success with the aside that you've got hundreds of unsold copies of your magazine hanging around your house and slowly turning into mulch.



Printing too many is always better than printing not enough. If you had experience you would know this.


----------



## JimW (Jan 12, 2010)

Louis MacNeice said:


> Coherent and totalising are not the same thing. One is acheivable, albeit in a circumscribed and temporary manner, the other is not.
> 
> Cheers - Louis MacNeice



Well put. That's what I'd have said if I had a more coherent political position


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 12, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> plenty of underlying evidence
> http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=295431&page=2



Only of your partisanship and stupidity.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 12, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> Wasting your breath on this sectarian.



Oh the fucking irony!!


----------



## audiotech (Jan 12, 2010)

This thread is going well.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 12, 2010)

MC5 said:


> This thread is going well.



Well its entertainment of a sort.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jan 12, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> Well put.
> 
> That's the correct analysis of their behaviour, regardless of how libertarian they dress it up as.



So why bother 'debating' them.  You do realise they are are incapable of understanding, accepting, and working with the left, they disagree with. Hence, conspiracy theorie's.  I've give up.


----------



## Random (Jan 12, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> So why bother 'debating' them.  You do realise they are are incapable of understanding, accepting, and working with the left, they disagree with. Hence, conspiracy theorie's.  I've give up.



But you keep coming back. Because you're obsessed.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 12, 2010)

MrA said:


> Lets be clear, the BNP in power is a fantasy...


Them being "in power" as in having a parliamentary majority, yes, obviously a fantasy. But, holding a degree of power and using it as a lever to legitimise their "new caring and sharing" politics, and that legitimation having the effect of "pulling" mainstream policy rightward in the hunt for votes? We've already seen how easily that can become a reality. 


> ...and there are international laws that would make most of their policies impossible. Any fringe party can make popularist or radical election promises in the knowledge that they'd never get to enact them.


Precisely.


> But it may influence some to support them as we have seen in recent years. By 1948 the non white population was tiny in comparison so it wouldn't be a bad yardstick for the BNP to use.


Smaller in size as a percentage of the population, yes, but still extremely ethnically diverse, which is a reality that no BNPer can escape from.


> It's the manner in which it was done against lets say the way you made the same point.


He's abrasive, I'm emolient.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 12, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> So why bother 'debating' them.  You do realise they are are incapable of understanding, accepting, and working with the left, they disagree with. Hence, conspiracy theorie's.  I give up.



I do not do it all the time, this is a rare thread for me these days. I generally lurk, looking around, posting sometimes/rarely. There is nothing to be gained from U75 and hasn't been for years, saying that, it is far better than Limpcok and MATB (those places are depressing) but I still post there sometimes too. When I can be bothered or have got something to say in the belly of the beast. 

Its better to work on political projects than post on these boards.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 12, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> Surrealist gibberish doesn't win arguments VP.



Just because *you* find it surreal doesn't mean that it is, doctor. Personally I don't see what's "surreal" about pointing out that your post served to shiv you as well as the person it was aimed at.


----------



## MrA (Jan 12, 2010)

mk12 said:


> The only people on here who've called Butchers a fascist are people who obviously feel bitter that he has destroyed their arguments over, and over, and over again.



Who? I haven't seen anything of the sort.



ResistanceMP3 said:


> I don't think MrA has stated BA is a fascist.
> "Give me a link, or oppologise" as Napolean [BA] would say.



They make things up to add to the drama. I've asked for a link from butchersknickers* too, I'm still waiting...

*childish, I know




ResistanceMP3 said:


> So why bother 'debating' them.  You do realise they are are incapable of understanding, accepting, and working with the left, they disagree with. Hence, conspiracy theorie's.  I've give up.



I wish they'd be a bit more specific for newcomers, I was totally confused why an anti BNP as butchers is supposed to be started attacking me firstly on the issue I got wrong and then for my opinion on the BNP. With friends like that who needs enemies?


----------



## JimW (Jan 12, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> Its better to work on political projects than post on these boards.



Origami with all them unsold copies of your mag?


----------



## Random (Jan 12, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> When I can be bothered or have got something to say in the belly of the beast. Its better to work on political projects than post on these boards.



'Cause she knows that
It'd be tragic
If those evil robots win
I know she can beat them

Oh Yoshimi, they don't believe me
But you won't let those robots defeat me
Yoshimi, they don't believe me
But you won't let those robots defeat me


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 12, 2010)

Random said:


> there's an upside to the schwartz and a downside



We should probably call him Darth Schvartzehand.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 12, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> Just because *you* find it surreal doesn't mean that it is, doctor. Personally I don't see what's "surreal" about pointing out that your post served to shiv you as well as the person it was aimed at.



I do not think so. My post was clear.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 12, 2010)

Random said:


> 'Cause she knows that
> It'd be tragic
> If those evil robots win
> I know she can beat them
> ...



Perhaps


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 12, 2010)

MrA said:


> Who? I haven't seen anything of the sort.
> 
> They make things up to add to the drama. I've asked for a link from butchersknickers* too, I'm still waiting...
> 
> ...



Quite, and of course *there are no problems* with the form or content of their politics at all.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 12, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> Wasting breath again.  "There is only ONE path to opposing fascism, and salvation,,,,,,,,," according to butchers, vp, pick etc.  "Anybody who does not follow this path is to be attacked, as in collusion with the state, or some other conspiracy theory."
> 
> Best off taking your own advice.



I just love the way you've used speech-marks in an attempt to convey that you're quoting either BA, Pickman's Model or me, when actually you're not, you're merely conveying your own prejudices about us. You try to be relevant, but all you do is show yourself up as a cunt. 

Well done, that fuckwit!! What do you do for an encore, defenestrate yourself?


----------



## Random (Jan 12, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> Quite, and of course *there are no problems* with the form or content of their politics at all.



Fight Climate Change With Praxis! http://www.amazon.co.uk/Eko-Mania-Paper-Log-Maker-Green/dp/B000OOCMB2


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jan 12, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> Only of your partisanship and stupidity.


You lot really can't tolerate a different point of view, can you?  Good job, not all Anarchist's are as sectarian.

btw who forced you lot who disagree with the thread and post?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 12, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> I take no prisoners



Of course you don't. 

How could you when your "praxis" involves self-promotion and self-aggrandisement rather than being in a position to physically apprehend an enemy and render them a prisoner?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 12, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> You lot really can't tolerate a different point of view, can you?  Good job, not all Anarchist's are as sectarian.



As evidenced by this thread and many others, I'm quite happy with a "different point of view" if it is factually sound and coherent. Don't blame me for the fact that often your POV is neither.


----------



## trevhagl (Jan 12, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> You lot really can't tolerate a different point of view, can you?  Good job, not all Anarchist's are as sectarian.
> 
> btw who forced you lot who disagree with the thread post?



where would be the fun if all anarchists or lefties on here weren't secretarian ho ho

i doubt there'd be an Urban at all!


----------



## trevhagl (Jan 12, 2010)

maybe Micky Fitz can re-write one of his songs to be an urban anthem, "Fight the wrong enemy" !!!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 12, 2010)

mk12 said:


> The only people on here who've called Butchers a fascist are people who obviously feel bitter that he has destroyed their arguments over, and over, and over again.



Yup.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 12, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> Nurse, the jews!



I would, but they smell odd.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 12, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> Fucking spot on!  They've become, what they claim to detest.



While you and TBH have retained your purity.

That's called "projection" by shrinks, you know.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 12, 2010)

Random said:


> I love the way you couple a claim of success with the aside that you've got hundreds of unsold copies of your magazine hanging around your house and slowly turning into mulch.



It was *obviously* an error by the printer, who over-ran the edition.
I bet TBH still paid for all the extra copies though, out of the goodness of his heart, and so that the printer's kiddies weren't forced onto a diet of bread and scrape. 
He's thoughtful like that.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jan 12, 2010)

trevhagl said:


> where would be the fun if all anarchists or lefties on here weren't secretarian ho ho
> 
> i doubt there'd be an Urban at all!



agreed, my point.


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 12, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> DOh, yet more straw man stupidity to cover your lack of politics
> 
> Lies now is it. Yet more Bullshit from the depressed ultra left.



Sorry, you are right what you said was even more daft



> I hope they have just stretched themselves to far, and the London crowd can mobilise to shit on Griffin in public If there's anywhere where parts of the public may lynch/stab Griffin it is here, lets hope so
> 
> A slogan of 'Turn the Knife Crime on Griffin' maybe good... irresponsible too, funny even, and popular perhaps. If there is a budding graphic designer out there who wants to do it I want a copy


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jan 12, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> While you and TBH have retained your purity.
> 
> That's called "projection" by shrinks, you know.



You cant understand his point, can you?

His point is, NO ONE has "purity"!


----------



## trevhagl (Jan 12, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> agreed, my point.



imagine if they were politicians, they'd all be like Purnell and hewitt!!


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 12, 2010)

trevhagl said:


> imagine if they were politicians, they'd all be like Purnell and hewitt!!



Apologise enoch.

That's a really shitty thing to post.


----------



## upsidedownwalrus (Jan 12, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> Why? In what way would it damage them? if anything it would shore up his harder edge that he's been accused of losing over the last few years - esp over this specific issue. It would be a gift to him and his credibility. Not that it's ever going to happen, but it does highlight once more the glaring deficiencies of this sort of official anti-fascism from above. Take the publicity that the UAF and associates gave to the EDL over the last year - allowing them to actually become something real in the process - and magnify it by about 1000.



Agreed, if he opens membership to anyone who considers themselves British no matter what their race, the left will have struck a massive blow against themselves, as I think most people are in favour of tighter immigration controls (even if they are really already tight enough) but blanche at the whites only policy.  If he's going to move it in a Civic Nationalist direction, he will get a lot more votes.  Guaranteed.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jan 12, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> Orly, I am doing well thankyou. Ignoring the anarchists actually gets you straight into doing good stuff, see here for this quick review of Mayday 4 from a new contact "Was quite impressed with issue 4 of Mayday, not only for originality but also personal input".
> 
> 
> 
> ...


you are TOO non-sectarians. FUCK THE NOBS! 

ps sorry, slipped into butchers mode.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jan 12, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> Apologise enoch.
> 
> That's a really shitty thing to post.



fine contribution.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jan 12, 2010)

Random said:


> But you keep coming back. Because you're obsessed.


Nope, to pick stuff for on anti-fascism. How ironic.


----------



## MrA (Jan 12, 2010)

I'm still confused... 

What would they say to any potential BNP supporter? That their position is, the BNP are bad because they're not Nazi's, racists or fascists but they're bad anyway.

I truly am perplexed , for butchers to say I have to figure out what he stands for from what he hasn't said is bizzare. Unlikely as it is, I _may _have actually have agreed with him. 

Is he an Anarchist?


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jan 12, 2010)

mk12;10182333]The only people on here who've called Butchers a fascist are people who obviously feel bitter that he has destroyed their arguments over said:


> Yup.


[/QUOTE]Still waiting for links. You both lying?


----------



## MrA (Jan 12, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> Still waiting for links. You both lying?



Is the Pope a Catholic!


----------



## okgirl (Jan 12, 2010)

MrA said:


> I'm not so sure, I think he's under pressure from within and this _could _tip the balance, I'm hoping so anyway, I'd like to someone like Bron take over, the little credibility the BNP have would soon be eroded.
> 
> Also, the BNP have faded into the backgroud recently which suits them, I'd prefer to see them front and centre not being attacked soley on race, which is relevant, but questioned on their (mini) manifesto, which many people would find unpaletable.
> 
> At the moment they are being allowed to cherry pick the sound bites that suit their agenda and purposes better.



Hi,  When you consider the mess the two main parties of this country have made,  I find it quite pathetic to see these sort of attacks on him.  The man is a hero for standing up against the establishment.  Whatsmore there are many people in this country who agree with a lot of what he says.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jan 12, 2010)

MrA said:


> I'm still confused...
> 
> What would they say to any potential BNP supporter? That their position is, the BNP are bad because they're not Nazi's, racists or fascists but they're bad anyway.
> 
> ...



Yes he is.

Their position is very simple. Some may say, simplistic.

BTW, not all anarchist's are as arogant and eliteist as U75 anarchist's.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 12, 2010)

Shut up okgirl


----------



## MrA (Jan 12, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> Shut up okgirl



That told her!!!!! Well done.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 12, 2010)

MrA said:


> Is the Pope a Catholic!



Yes he is.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jan 12, 2010)

okgirl said:


> Hi,  When you consider the mess the two main parties of this country have made,  I find it quite pathetic to see these sort of attacks on him.  The man is a hero for standing up against the establishment.  Whatsmore there are many people in this country who agree with a lot of what he says.


Joke,,,,, yes?

No one has called him fascist, that's his and others paranoid delusion.


----------



## MrA (Jan 12, 2010)

okgirl said:


> Hi,  When you consider the mess the two main parties of this country have made,



And what difference would the BNP make?



> I find it quite pathetic to see these sort of attacks on him.



And you'd be quite right if they were unjustified, which parts do you feel are?



> The man is a hero for standing up against the establishment.  Whatsmore there are many people in this country who agree with a lot of what he says.



They agree with his sentiment, there'd be plenty more that they would disagree on, specifically what do you agree with?


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 12, 2010)

MrA said:


> That told her!!!!! Well done.



You've not covered yourself in glory on this thread. You made a big booming claim, had to take it back and have been crying with an assortment of piggybackers since.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 12, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> Joke,,,,, yes?
> 
> No one has called him fascist, that's his and others paranoid delusion.



I am a hero.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jan 12, 2010)

MrA said:


> That told her!!!!! Well done.


He's like a characature, isn't.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jan 12, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> I am a hero.



Who to, your willy?


----------



## MrA (Jan 12, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> You've not covered yourself in glory on this thread. You made a big boomibg claim, had to take it back and have been crying with an assortment of piggybackers since.



And your validation of me amounts to absolutely zero, you'd drive a person into the arms of the BNP with your attitude. I can openly admit when I'm wrong and off course, you seem to revel in the fact that you made an internet point, score! You won, one up for butchers.

After that fact you've just diverted and said the square root of fuck all. 


You're all piss and wind and no substance a small man with a smaller attitude, the BNP would quiver in their Jackboots at the mere mention of your name .


----------



## audiotech (Jan 12, 2010)

I don't know butchersapron, apart from on these boards, but it's obvious that he does know a great deal about fascism and has some ideas of how to fight it.

He only picks on those who appear bereft of any ideas in effectively opposing the BNP of today. In reply, we see the usual smear and exaggeration, to hide the posters own lack of knowledge on the subject - dangerous.

I've one criticism, why does he drag it out for so long?


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 12, 2010)

MC5 said:


> I don't know butchersapron, apart from on these boards, but it's obvious that he does know a great deal about fascism and has some ideas of how to fight it.
> 
> He only picks on those who appear bereft of any ideas in effectively opposing the BNP of today. In reply, we see the usual smear and exaggeration, to hide the posters own lack of knowledge on the subject - dangerous.
> 
> I've one criticism, why does he drag it out for so long?



Thank you MC5. We rarely agree, but it's heartening that you can see through that.


----------



## MrA (Jan 12, 2010)

MC5 said:


> I don't know butchersapron, apart from on these boards, but it's obvious that he does know a great deal about fascism and has some ideas of how to fight it.
> 
> *He only picks on those who appear bereft of any ideas in effectively opposing the BNP of today.* In reply, we see the usual smear and exaggeration, to hide the posters own lack of knowledge on the subject - dangerous.
> 
> I've one criticism, why does he drag it out for so long?



What gives him the right? He should attempt to educate if he is some sorta antifash sensei, it's not that I support the BNP ffs, he was making a point to try to illicit an argument and then rub it in, why?

I tell you why, because his knowledge of the BNP probably has as many holes in it as everyone elses, but show me where he's actually made a point other than the BNP do NOT have a policy for forced repatriation? O


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jan 12, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> This is why i'm taken seriously on the BNP and you're not.


We want names!  We want names!  We want names!  We want names!  We want names!  We want names!  We want names!  We want names!  We want names!  We want names!  We want names!  We want names!  We want names!  We want names!  We want names!  We want names!  We want names!


----------



## MrA (Jan 12, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> Thank you MC5. We rarely agree, but it's heartening that you can see through that.



Pass me a fucking bucket...


----------



## MrA (Jan 12, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> We want names!  We want names!  We want names!  We want names!  We want names!  We want names!  We want names!  We want names!  We want names!  We want names!  We want names!  We want names!  We want names!  We want names!  We want names!  We want names!  We want names!



He can't,  he clearly only likes to wallow in his own self righteousness.


----------



## okgirl (Jan 12, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> Shut up okgirl



No you shutup.


----------



## MrA (Jan 12, 2010)

okgirl said:


> No you shutup.



Don't encourage him for pities sake. He'll bore the arse off you, you have been warned.


----------



## Knotted (Jan 12, 2010)

MrA said:


> What gives him the right? He should attempt to educate if he is some sorta antifash sensei, it's not that I support the BNP ffs, he was making a point to try to illicit an argument and then rub it in, why?
> 
> I tell you why, because his knowledge of the BNP probably has as many holes in it as everyone elses, but show me where he's actually made a point other than the BNP do NOT have a policy for forced repatriation? O



http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=10171980&postcount=4
http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=10172006&postcount=6

Butcher's has said pretty much all that needed to be said on this topic. First post was informative, second post made the principled point. He knows about this stuff, you don't. Quit whining.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jan 12, 2010)

MC5 said:


> I don't know butchersapron, apart from on these boards, but it's obvious that he does know a great deal about fascism and has some ideas of how to fight it.
> 
> He only picks on those who appear bereft of any ideas in effectively opposing the BNP of today. In reply, we see the usual smear and exaggeration, to hide the posters own lack of knowledge on the subject - dangerous.
> 
> I've one criticism, why does he drag it out for so long?


You make him sound very arrogant.

Are you seriously saying UAF, Searchlight, MrA etc have no ideas, or just ideas Napolean  etc disagree with?  How effective have butchers ideas been?  Is it possible butchers is wrong?


And do you and butchers, mk12, VP, Pickmans etc have a link to where anyone has stated butchers is a fascist?

btw.  I agree.  Butcher's does know a great deal about fascism and has some ideas of how to fight it.  What's more they are very simple, and I hope thy work.  I have no desire or reason to attack his efforts. I just have a different tactic.


----------



## audiotech (Jan 12, 2010)

Touchy. It's my perception, ignore it if it upsets you.


----------



## MrA (Jan 12, 2010)

Knotted said:


> http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=10171980&postcount=4
> http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=10172006&postcount=6
> 
> Butcher's has said pretty much all that needed to be said on this topic. First post was informative, second post made the principled point. He knows about this stuff, you don't. Quit whining.



Thanks for the insightful analysis a link to two posts....


----------



## MrA (Jan 12, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> You make him sound very arrogant.



He does exceedingly well on his own.



> Are you seriously saying UAF, Searchlight, MrA etc have no ideas, or just ideas Napolean  etc disagree with?  How effective have butchers ideas been?  Is it possible butchers is wrong?



I don't know about right or wrong in this, I think his approach sucks.



> And do you and butchers, mk12, VP, Pickmans etc have a link to where anyone has stated butchers is a fascist?



 *yawn* We'll be waiting for a long time, it's jst a divert.



> btw.  I agree.  Butcher's does know a great deal about fascism and *has some ideas of how to fight it.*  What's more they are very simple, and I hope thy work.  I have no desire or reason to attack his efforts. I just have a different tactic.



I wish I knew what it was.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jan 12, 2010)

Knotted said:


> http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=10171980&postcount=4
> http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=10172006&postcount=6
> 
> Butcher's has said pretty much all that needed to be said on this topic. First post was informative, second post made the principled point. He knows about this stuff, you don't. Quit whining.



 Yup!  Now everyone is convinced,  because his tactic have been so successfull,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, where?


----------



## okgirl (Jan 12, 2010)

MrA said:


> And what difference would the BNP make?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



They are right to be concerned about the growth of Islam in this country.

They are right to want to cut immigration and they are right  to advocate voluntary repatriation, there are too many immigrants in this country.  This government have lost control of immigration.  There are too many scam marriages and too many bogus asylum seekers.

They are right to want to bring back the death penalty regards serial killers like Huntley, Nielson and terrorists etc etc

They want to keep the pound and get out of the EU.

The list is endless I could go on.

Now you tell me what they are so wrong about???

They are right to want to cut funding for unnecessary University degrees.

They are right to


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jan 12, 2010)

MrA said:


> I wish I knew what it was.


Sorry m8, it's secret.  I could tell you,,,,,,,,, but I'd have to kill you.


----------



## okgirl (Jan 12, 2010)

That's funny I don't know what happened there?


----------



## Knotted (Jan 12, 2010)

MrA said:


> Thanks for the insightful analysis a link to two posts....



I've had to wade through pages of you dealing with your pique on the off chance that somebody is saying something interesting. I would put you on ignore as an idiot time waster, but you are so fantastically stupid and self-centred that you are willing to ally with a BNP sympathiser to satisfy your pique. You are an idiot time waster, but not a completely harmless idiot time waster.


----------



## MrA (Jan 12, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> Sorry m8, it's secret.  I could tell you,,,,,,,,, but I'd have to kill you.



*glup*


----------



## audiotech (Jan 12, 2010)

okgirl said:


> They are right to



....believe in the leadership principle?


----------



## Knotted (Jan 12, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> Yup!  Now everyone is convinced,  because his tactic have been so successfull,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, where?



His "tactic" at least causes no harm. This is why it is superior to UAF.

Let's ask a hypothetical question.

Suppose that Griffin were going to jail over not allowing non-whites into the BNP (note that this is hypothetical - they aren't and he won't). What should anti-fascists do? What would your tactic be? Cheer?

Can't you even see the obvious point that this will do wonders for Griffin's credibility? Do you still think that yapping on about the BNP=criminals gets you anywhere?

More to the point, don't you have a small element of principle in you that worries about the state determining how a party can choose it's members?


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jan 12, 2010)

MC5 said:


> Touchy. It's my perception, ignore it if it upsets you.


I think the lesson of 56,000 butcher post's,,,,,,,,,,,, is you should be saying that to him.


butchersapron;9504228]To what? To bolster the same failed agenda as outlined in the OP? Why would i do that? The whoel approach of the thread is poltically fucked said:


> That would be political cowardice.


[/QUOTE]
[/QUOTE]


----------



## MrA (Jan 12, 2010)

okgirl said:


> They are right to be concerned about the growth of Islam in this country.



Islam of fundamental Islam? Islam is no more dangerous than Catholicism, it's the interpretation that's a problem and the feeling of lack of integration. Or am I off the mark here?



> They are right to want to cut immigration and they are right  to advocate voluntary repatriation, there are too many immigrants in this country.  This government have lost control of immigration.  There are too many scam marriages and too many bogus asylum seekers.



OK. That's the prevailing opinion these days it's only a matter of time before the big two adopt a harder immigration stance and dress it up as something new and funky, especially if it's a vote winner.



> They are right to want to bring back the death penalty regards serial killers like Huntley, Nielson and terrorists etc etc



That's a whole other thread.


> They want to keep the pound and get out of the EU.



So do the Tories.



> The list is endless I could go on.
> 
> Now you tell me what they are so wrong about???





> They are right to want to cut funding for unnecessary University degrees.


Couldn't agree more! I have the pleasure of interviewing graduates in Media Studies and Greenkeeping. 

Firstly, I think it's wrong that they propose to strip Brit's of their citizenship and classify them as 2nd/3rd class citizens.


----------



## MrA (Jan 12, 2010)

Knotted said:


> I've had to wade through pages of you dealing with your pique on the off chance that somebody is saying something interesting. I would put you on ignore as an idiot time waster, but you are so fantastically stupid and self-centred that *you are willing to ally with a BNP sympathiser *to satisfy your pique. You are an idiot time waster, but not a completely harmless idiot time waster.



Please link to where I have done this, or as I suspect you're a fucking liar.


----------



## Knotted (Jan 12, 2010)

MrA said:


> Please link to where I have done this, or as I suspect you're a fucking liar.



http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=10183194&postcount=345


----------



## audiotech (Jan 12, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> *Originally Posted by butchersapron*
> To what? To bolster the same failed agenda as outlined in the OP? Why would i do that? The whoel approach of the thread is poltically fucked, it's asking people to contribute to helping the same failed approach. Bin the thread, bin this approach.
> 
> *Originally Posted by ResistanceMP3*
> ...



You clearly lost that one.


----------



## MrA (Jan 12, 2010)

Knotted said:


> http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=10183194&postcount=345



OMG! 

This is an alliance? You have the audacity to call me an idiot and here's clear proof of your pathetic idiocy. 

I'd rather engage a sympathiser who shows me civility and hopefully put a few seeds of doubt in their minds. You lot just attack and that just entrenches their view, the very fucking thing you say that shouldn't be done.

Is this the superior tactic?


----------



## audiotech (Jan 12, 2010)

You are indeed dumb.


----------



## MrA (Jan 12, 2010)

Knotted said:


> http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=10183194&postcount=345



OMG! 

This is an alliance? You have the audacity to call me an idiot and here's clear proof of your pathetic idiocy. 

I'd rather engage a sympathiser who shows me civility and hopefully put a few seeds of doubt in their minds. You lot just attack and that just entrenches their view, the very fucking thing you say that shouldn't be done.

Is this the superior tactic?


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jan 12, 2010)

Knotted said:


> His "tactic" at least causes no harm. This is why it is superior to UAF.
> 
> Let's ask a hypothetical question.
> 
> ...



Don't even try to engage me in 'debate' on the topic of the thread, after once again butcher's has fucked any possibility, and you are unable to concieve of the possibility butchers is wrong.

Answer the question put to you, or just fuckoff like the liar's.



mk12;10182333]The only people on here who've called Butchers a fascist are people who obviously feel bitter that he has destroyed their arguments over said:


> Yup.


[/QUOTE]Still waiting for links. You both lying?


----------



## Knotted (Jan 12, 2010)

MrA said:


> Is this the superior tactic?



How does this strategy work?


----------



## Knotted (Jan 12, 2010)

> Answer the question put to you, or just fuckoff like the liar's.
> 
> Still waiting for links. You both lying?



What? I've no idea who has been calling butchers a fascist.


----------



## okgirl (Jan 12, 2010)

MrA said:


> Islam of fundamental Islam? Islam is no more dangerous than Catholicism, it's the interpretation that's a problem and the feeling of lack of integration. Or am I off the mark here?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Ask a black immigrant who they think they are, inevitably they'd say Asian first then British.  Take the racism out of it, the Americans have got it right Asian/American African/American etc etc.  If the PC brigade have their way they will be asking to totally remove the photo on passports and driving licences soon.  It's not about racism it's about identity.  After all you don't get black Asian Chinese do you???


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jan 12, 2010)

MrA said:


> OMG!
> 
> This is an alliance? You have the audacity to call me an idiot and here's clear proof of your pathetic idiocy.
> 
> ...


he's taking the piss now. with friends,,,,,,,,


----------



## MrA (Jan 12, 2010)

Knotted said:


> How does this strategy work?



Strategy? Or just a forum you plank.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jan 12, 2010)

MC5 said:


> You are indeed dumb.


Aren't we clever?


----------



## Knotted (Jan 12, 2010)

MrA said:


> Strategy? Or just a forum you plank.



I don't support no platform for the BNP, but only because it would be counter productive given their current orientation. However, handing them a friendly platform...

Let me know how it goes.


----------



## MrA (Jan 12, 2010)

okgirl said:


> Ask a black immigrant who they think they are, inevitably they'd say Asian first then British.



How many do you actually know? Seriously. Anyway, wouldn't a Scotsman be a Scotsman and still be British? Asian is an ethnicity not a Nationality, what's more important?



> Take the racism out of it, the Americans have got it right Asian/American African/American etc etc.



But they're still Americans. 



> If the PC brigade have their way they will be asking to totally remove the photo on passports and driving licences soon.  It's not about racism it's about identity.



I can't see why, in fact the photgraph was a relatively new addition to the driving license, if anything they'd love us all to have photo ID cards.

But back to my question in my previous post, I'd be interested to hear you view on the matter.




> After all you don't get black Asian Chinese do you???


 Please elborate.


----------



## MrA (Jan 12, 2010)

Knotted said:


> I don't support no platform for the BNP, but only because it would be counter productive given their current orientation. However, handing them a friendly platform...
> 
> Let me know how it goes.



It's been going for years, and a friendly platform, do me a favour. 

Can't you see that with your attitude anyone remotely thinking about supporting the BNP would be putting their X on the ballot paper quick a a flash after being subjected to you superior tactics, come on do share this superior tactic of yours. All I can see is lot of hot air.


----------



## Knotted (Jan 12, 2010)

MrA said:


> It's been going for years, and a friendly platform, do me a favour.
> 
> Can't you see that with your attitude anyone remotely thinking about supporting the BNP would be putting their X on the ballot paper quick a a flash after being subjected to you superior tactics, come on do share this superior tactic of yours. All I can see is lot of hot air.



You only know about my attitude to you and that's that you're an idiot time waster. Go ahead and vote BNP if it will make you feel better about my attitude. See if I care, 'cos you'll end up voting Lib Dem to spite some BNP member being rude to you. With some people there is just no hope.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 12, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> You cant understand his point, can you?


More clearly than you, obviously.


> His point is, NO ONE has "purity"!



Odd then, that he didn't actually make that point in the post you were agreeing to, that I quoted, isn't it?
All he did was make his usual farting noises about how people are "ultra-left" or "old left", labels he attaches to anyone who doesn't agree with him and isn't obviously right-wing.


----------



## MrA (Jan 12, 2010)

Knotted said:


> You only know about my attitude to you and that's that you're an idiot time waster. Go ahead and vote BNP if it will make you feel better about my attitude. See if I care, 'cos you'll end up voting Lib Dem to spite some BNP member being rude to you. With some people there is just no hope.



Good fucking Lord! You are seriously stupid,  

I wouldn't vote BNP because of a tit like you, but others just might.  



PS: I fail the membership criteria as it stands, but after the court ruling who knows.


Time for bed***


----------



## Random (Jan 12, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> All he did was make his usual farting noises about how people are "ultra-left" or "old left", labels he attaches to anyone who doesn't agree with him and isn't obviously right-wing.


Odd use of such stale, content-free trad-left curse words by someone as vibrantly human as TBH


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jan 12, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> More clearly than you, obviously.
> 
> 
> Odd then, that he didn't actually make that point in the post you were agreeing to, that I quoted, isn't it?
> All he did was make his usual farting noises about how people are "ultra-left" or "old left", labels he attaches to anyone who doesn't agree with him and isn't obviously right-wing.





mk12;10182333]The only people on here who've called Butchers a fascist are people who obviously feel bitter that he has destroyed their arguments over said:


> Yup.


[/QUOTE]Still waiting for links. You both lying?

In fact where have I ever called anybody have a fascist?


----------



## Random (Jan 12, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> Still waiting for links. You both lying?


Maybe they're in a lying CONSPIRACY?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 12, 2010)

MrA said:


> I'm still confused...
> 
> What would they say to any potential BNP supporter? That their position is, the BNP are bad because they're not Nazi's, racists or fascists but they're bad anyway.


I'd say "they're not Nazis or fascists, but their politics are partly based on spurious 'race' arguments and on a version of nationalism that is far more excluding than, for example, the nationalism of the Scots. Look to their history and to the non-policy pronouncements of their leadership and make your own mind up exactly how worthy they are of support".

To me there's no point shouting names at the BNP. That worked against the NF in the 1970s because the majority of their grass-roots as well as their power structure were Hitler-worshippers, and a lot of their policy was based on German, and to a lesser extent, Italian fascist policy. That's why I think that strategies based on name-calling and the diversion of votes ("vote anyone but BNP") don't work: How can they if they're removed from reality?


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jan 12, 2010)

Random said:


> Maybe they're in a lying CONSPIRACY?


I leave that kind of speculation to the u75 anarchist's odd's and sodd's.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 12, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> Still waiting for links. You both lying?



Links to what? Links to you being out-argued time and time again? Use the search function on your own user-name and read 'em and fucking weep!


----------



## Boppity (Jan 12, 2010)

Knotted said:


> How does this strategy work?



MSF = MootStormfront. It was set up several years ago as a result of the draconian moderation in the Stormfront opposing views section, it wasn't set up as a response to the BNP.

Any discussion of the BNP on that forum is of just the same value and relevance as it is on this site. It was from that website that MrA and I found this one, through Y_I_Otter. I have been posting on MSF since 2006 (around the time I joined here you'll notice, though I've only recently started posting on a semi-regular basis) and it most certainly is not a friendly platform for racists nor has it ever been.


----------



## Random (Jan 12, 2010)

So you, MrA and Y_I_Otter are all former Stormfront posters? edit: oh I see, with opposing views


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 12, 2010)

Oh, got it now.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 12, 2010)

okgirl said:


> Hi,  When you consider the mess the two main parties of this country have made,  I find it quite pathetic to see these sort of attacks on him.  The man is a hero for standing up against the establishment.  Whatsmore there are many people in this country who agree with a lot of what he says.



He doesn't stand up against the establishment, he's part of it, like his political forebears Mosley and Chesterton (to name but two). He's about as heroic as a wet fart.


----------



## Boppity (Jan 12, 2010)

Random said:


> So you, MrA and Y_I_Otter are all former Stormfront posters?



No. That's just the history of Mootstormfront, it was set up by former anti-racist posters on Stormfront for the purpose of refuting the posts there without having the racist moderators arbitrarily deleting their posts.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 12, 2010)

MC5 said:


> I've one criticism, why does he drag it out for so long?



Give 'em enough rope...


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 12, 2010)

Random said:


> So you, MrA and Y_I_Otter are all former Stormfront posters? edit: oh I see, with opposing views



Experienced at posting against the far right yet think that i'm far right. Did you not pick anything up? Learn anything?


----------



## Boppity (Jan 12, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> Experienced at posting against the far right yet think that i'm far right. Did you not pick anything up? Learn anything?



I most certainly have not accused you of being 'far right' nor have I seen any evidence that Y_I_Otter or MrA have either.

MrA has merely indicated that you appear neutral on the issue. I myself am not involved enough in the thread to comment on what I think your position is.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jan 12, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> I'd say "they're not Nazis or fascists, but their politics are partly based on spurious 'race' arguments and on a version of nationalism that is far more excluding than, for example, the nationalism of the Scots. Look to their history and to the non-policy pronouncements of their leadership and make your own mind up exactly how worthy they are of support".



Why? How do you define neo-fascist?  Has Nick Griffin never been fascist?  If yes, at what point did he stop being one?


----------



## audiotech (Jan 12, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> Give 'em enough rope...



I've only played that album once. Must get it out again sometime for a second play.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 12, 2010)

Bippitybop said:


> I most certainly have not accused you of being 'far right' nor have I seen any evidence that Y_I_Otter or MrA have either.
> 
> MrA has merely indicated that you appear neutral on the issue. I myself am not involved enough in the thread to comment on what I think your position is.



MR A has, repeatdly. You had a go at backing him up.

'appear neutral' -  'I myself am not involved enough in the thread'. Appeaser.

I'll ask again:

Did you not pick anything up from posting with the far right? Learn anything from them?


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jan 12, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> Links to what? Links to you being out-argued time and time again? Use the search function on your own user-name and read 'em and fucking weep!



 liar.


----------



## Boppity (Jan 12, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> MR A has, repeatdly. You had a go at backing him up.
> 
> 'appear neutral' -  'I myself am not involved enough in the thread'. Appeaser.



'Appear neutral' were words I took from MrA, that's exactly what he said, word for word. They aren't my own, I'm not going to judge this guy without reading all of his posts, something I don't have the inclination to do. You can rush in with your judgements if you like but I won't.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 12, 2010)

Bippitybop said:


> 'Appear neutral' were words I took from MrA, that's exactly what he said, word for word. They aren't my own, I'm not going to judge this guy without reading all of his posts, something I don't have the inclination to do. You can rush in with your judgements if you like but I won't.



What 'guy'? You just said that he's your mate from elsewhere. Unravelling.


----------



## Boppity (Jan 12, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> Did you not pick anything up from posting with the far right? Learn anything from them?


Oh, I didn't realise this question was directed at me.  Duh! What do you mean did I learn anything from them?

I suppose you could say my view isn't as black and white (pardon the pun) as it was when I went into it. But I was very young when I started posting too, so that could have had something to do with it. I started out thinking that all BNP sympathisers were racist monsters, no questions asked. My view has since mellowed in that regard, I realise that many people who support the BNP do so out of misplaced fear or misunderstanding. They aren't all just 'evil Nazis', some of them have genuine concerns and are directing their vitriol, in my opinion, at the wrong sources. These tend to be the voters or the average people who are slightly sympathetic towards the BNP rather than the hardcore campaigners or the MP's themselves for whom I have little but contempt for.

I believe alot of the problems faced by people tend to be class issues more than race issues. Personally I think race is a completely irrelevant concept.


----------



## Boppity (Jan 12, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> What 'guy'? You just said that he's your mate from elsewhere. Unravelling.



When I said judge the guy I meant you, for some reason I thought I was responding to a different poster. It's been a long day and I have a headache, cut me some slack.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jan 12, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> What 'guy'? You just said that he's your mate from elsewhere. Unravelling.



Oh fucking hell, it's Sherlock Drones.

Is pickmans watson?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 12, 2010)

okgirl said:


> They are right to be concerned about the growth of Islam in this country.


What do you mean by "the growth of Islam"? Do you mean it is expanding it's base of followers in the UK, or that it's becoming a more visible political force?


> They are right to want to cut immigration and they are right  to advocate voluntary repatriation, there are too many immigrants in this country.


Define what you mean by "too many", please.


> This government have lost control of immigration.


No, they haven't. Not of *legal* immigration, which is the only sort they *can* control. If you want to moan about *illegal* immigration, have a word with the Prime Minister who halved the number of posts for immigration inspectors at British ports of entry back in the 1990s.


> There are too many scam marriages and too many bogus asylum seekers.


Figures for "scam marriages" and for "bogus asylum seekers", please


> They are right to want to bring back the death penalty regards serial killers like Huntley, Nielson and terrorists etc etc.


Are they?
And what if your brother, husband or son were falsely or even correctly convicted of serial killing or terrorism, would you still be barking for the death penalty so loudly?


> They want to keep the pound and get out of the EU.


So they say. Pity they haven't made any substantive proposals whatsoever and now have two of their hierarchy serving as Euro MPs.
As for sterling, if they ever got in power (which they won't), they'd be forced to acknowledge that it's not them who get to decide, it's business. As soon as it isn't in the interests of "the city" for the UK to retain sterling, *whoever* governs will bend the knee.


> The list is endless I could go on.


And I'm sure that, given the chance, you do. 


> Now you tell me what they are so wrong about???
> 
> They are right to want to cut funding for unnecessary University degrees.


What is an "unnecessary university degree" when it's at home, then?


> They are right to


So you keep saying, although all we have to prove your claims is...well, your insistence that "they're right to".


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jan 12, 2010)

delete:


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 12, 2010)

Bippitybop said:


> When I said judge the guy I meant you, for some reason I thought I was responding to a different poster. It's been a long day and I have a headache, cut me some slack.



Fair dos. Slack cut.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 12, 2010)

MC5 said:


> ....believe in the leadership principle?



As they call it nowadays.


----------



## Y_I_Otter (Jan 12, 2010)

I've never posted at Stormfront's OV forum and wouldn't. It's their playpen and it's run through over-moderation: thread deletions, thread closure, post editing, and banning by the staff. It's not there for an exchange of ideas, but as a recruiting tool and a chance to make antiracists look like idiots by belittling their arguments, using the tactics I mentioned. Why would anyone willingly subject themselves to that? MSF was created as a venue for racialists/white nationalists to mix it up with antiracists on a more level playing field.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 12, 2010)

okgirl said:


> Ask a black immigrant who they think they are, inevitably they'd say Asian first then British.


That hasn't been the case for me, and I have spent all my 47 years living alongside the British-born children of immigrants, and I can't remember any of them defining themselves in the way you claim is common.


> Take the racism out of it, the Americans have got it right Asian/American African/American etc etc.


Well, that's exactly how most of my mates define themselves: As Anglo-Caribbean, Anglo-Pakistani etc.
You should stop getting your cultural information from the media.


> If the PC brigade have their way they will be asking to totally remove the photo on passports and driving licences soon.


That's about as likely to happen as you are likely to wake up tomorrow a millionaire. 


> It's not about racism it's about identity.  After all you don't get black Asian Chinese do you???


You get East African Asians, Indo-Caribbeans, Sino-Caribbeans and loads of other mixes.
What sort of "whites only" cultural void do you live in? Some back of beyond one-haystack town in south Lincs, or are you just unaware of what's around you?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 12, 2010)

Random said:


> Odd use of such stale, content-free trad-left curse words by someone as vibrantly human as TBH



Well, he *claims* to be human, anyway!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 12, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> Still waiting for links. You both lying?
> 
> In fact where have I ever called anybody have a fascist?



Are you therefore admitting that butch has indeed destroyed your arguments over and over again?

Because you can't have the one without the other, you know.


----------



## mk12 (Jan 12, 2010)

Sorry RMP3, just seen your posts. You haven't called Butch a fascist. I meant criticise him, but got carried away.


----------



## Knotted (Jan 12, 2010)

Bippitybop said:


> MSF = MootStormfront. It was set up several years ago as a result of the draconian moderation in the Stormfront opposing views section, it wasn't set up as a response to the BNP.
> 
> Any discussion of the BNP on that forum is of just the same value and relevance as it is on this site. It was from that website that MrA and I found this one, through Y_I_Otter. I have been posting on MSF since 2006 (around the time I joined here you'll notice, though I've only recently started posting on a semi-regular basis) and it most certainly is not a friendly platform for racists nor has it ever been.



Thanks for the answer. MSF seems harmless enough to be fair.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 12, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> Why? How do you define neo-fascist?  Has Nick Griffin never been fascist?  If yes, at what point did he stop being one?




To answer your vapid questions.
I define "neo-fascist" as political practice that includes elements of updated fascist ideology, especially corporatism, myths of "racial purity", an anti-immigration stance and an antipathy  toward democracy and the mechanisms used to operate it. The BNP as currently constituted (in the proper meaning of the word) only push the "racial purity" and "anti-immigration" buttons, as their current stance is anti-big business and pro-democracy.
Griffin *has* *previously*, pre-takover, professed his loyalty to fascist principles. He doesn't do so now. He may *be* a fascist, but if he isn't professing support for fascism, or campaigning on a fascist platform, then attacking him as a "Nazi" or "fascist" makes you look stupid and him look martyred by weirdos.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 12, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> liar.



Why would I lie? People only have to use the search function themselves to see I'm *not* lying.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 12, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> While you and TBH have retained your purity.
> 
> That's called "projection" by shrinks, you know.



My point has been, for a very long time, that noone is pure, no one perfect, no groups either. 

Our point has been that dry non committal description is not either. Hardly a declaration of war was it, and look at the stink


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 12, 2010)

The39thStep said:


> Sorry, you are right what you said was even more daft



 Look, just because I am honest enough to say what I feel does not mean that it is a recommendation for a mass party to follow. When you can recognise pub talk for what it is, and developed politics let me know. Don't confuse the 2, that is straw man rubbish.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 12, 2010)

MC5 said:


> I don't know butchersapron, apart from on these boards, but it's obvious that he does know a great deal about fascism and has some ideas of how to fight it.
> 
> He only picks on those who appear bereft of any ideas in effectively opposing the BNP of today. In reply, we see the usual smear and exaggeration, to hide the posters own lack of knowledge on the subject - dangerous.
> 
> I've one criticism, why does he drag it out for so long?



Jus cos Butchers reads BNP propaganda and repeats it, doesn't make it good politics. 

If you want serious anti fascist theory try this;
http://journal-articles.googlegroup...boGG1qiJ7UbTIup-M2XPURDRCtAIzYAd7ET1iMmRpdYsL


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 12, 2010)

okgirl said:


> They are right to be concerned about the growth of Islam in this country.
> 
> They are right to want to cut immigration and they are right  to advocate voluntary repatriation, there are too many immigrants in this country.  This government have lost control of immigration.  There are too many scam marriages and too many bogus asylum seekers.
> 
> ...



All wrong. Stupid even.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 12, 2010)

Knotted said:


> His "tactic" at least causes no harm. This is why it is superior to UAF.



That's a revealing quote. Is that 'do nothing'?  If it is, it is deluded.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 12, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> He doesn't stand up against the establishment, he's part of it, like his political forebears Mosley and Chesterton (to name but two). He's about as heroic as a wet fart.



Brilliant


----------



## mk12 (Jan 12, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> Jus cos Butchers reads BNP propaganda and repeats it, doesn't make it good politics.
> 
> If you want serious anti fascist theory try this;
> http://journal-articles.googlegroup...boGG1qiJ7UbTIup-M2XPURDRCtAIzYAd7ET1iMmRpdYsL



Don't ask me why, but i've just read it. I don't see how it's new or original in it's thinking to be honest.


----------



## Knotted (Jan 12, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> That's a revealing quote. Is that 'do nothing'?  If it is, it is deluded.



I'm not indulging this sort of one-liner question. Try to understand what I am saying and make your point if you have one.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 12, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> More clearly than you, obviously.
> 
> 
> Odd then, that he didn't actually make that point in the post you were agreeing to, that I quoted, isn't it?
> All he did was make his usual farting noises about how people are "ultra-left" or "old left", labels he attaches to anyone who doesn't agree with him and isn't obviously right-wing.



There is an established terminology, that should be used 'when the kettle fits'.

Ultra left. old left, has characteristics that the anarchists and posters on this site use without being aware of it. AS far as I know I am the first to try to hammer home this point, and as usual the messanger gets shot The anarchists are unaware of their ultra left obscurity, and if they are, pretend they are not a variety of the ultra left. With all its flaws. 

I am trying, as you well know, to create a radical humanistic political synthesis for the 21st century and will continue to try to do so. What we are seeking, to have any chance of success, MUST abandon the ultra left and old left theory and characteristics to have any chance of success.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 12, 2010)

mk12 said:


> Don't ask me why, but i've just read it. I don't see how it's new or original in it's thinking to be honest.



Didn't Lenin say Marxism had 3 component parts, english political economy, french socialism, and german philosophy. Its the synthesis that is important.

Autonomous Anti fascism as far as I know, was the first time this label was given to an historical and emerging tendency, one that I seek to encourage. Beyond the party/federation form.

PS. I do not see how you could have read it so quickly and reflected upon it, but thanks if you did.


----------



## mk12 (Jan 12, 2010)

I honestly did. Funnily enough (and I may have interpreted it incorrectly), I don't think it is radically different from what people like Butchers propogate. 

Feel free to correct me if i'm wrong!


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jan 12, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> Why would I lie? People only have to use the search function themselves to see I'm *not* lying.


 being deliberately obtuse, is no less stupid, especially when it's patently obvious to everyone you are avoiding the original question.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jan 12, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> To answer your vapid questions.
> I define "neo-fascist" as political practice that includes elements of updated fascist ideology, especially corporatism, myths of "racial purity", an anti-immigration stance and an antipathy  toward democracy and the mechanisms used to operate it. The BNP as currently constituted (in the proper meaning of the word) only push the "racial purity" and "anti-immigration" buttons, as their current stance is anti-big business and pro-democracy.
> Griffin *has* *previously*, pre-takover, professed his loyalty to fascist principles. He doesn't do so now. He may *be* a fascist, but if he isn't professing support for fascism, or campaigning on a fascist platform, then attacking him as a "Nazi" or "fascist" makes you look stupid and him look martyred by weirdos.


Did he? Where, because he denies he has ever been a fascist or racist?  Where does he push "racial purity"?  ( you didn't watch the video did you?)

Do you believe him when he says he isn't a racist or fascist?


----------



## Citizen66 (Jan 12, 2010)

okgirl said:


> They are right to be concerned about the growth of Islam in this country.
> 
> They are right to want to cut immigration and they are right  to advocate voluntary repatriation, there are too many immigrants in this country.  This government have lost control of immigration.  There are too many scam marriages and too many bogus asylum seekers.
> 
> ...



It's Melanie Phillips.


----------



## Blagsta (Jan 12, 2010)

okgirl said:


> They are right to be concerned about the growth of Islam in this country.
> 
> They are right to want to cut immigration and they are right  to advocate voluntary repatriation, there are too many immigrants in this country.  This government have lost control of immigration.  There are too many scam marriages and too many *bogus asylum seekers*.
> 
> ...



What on earth is a "bogus asylum seeker"?


----------



## Blagsta (Jan 12, 2010)

okgirl said:


> Ask a black immigrant who they think they are, inevitably they'd say Asian first then British.  Take the racism out of it, the Americans have got it right Asian/American African/American etc etc.  If the PC brigade have their way they will be asking to totally remove the photo on passports and driving licences soon.  It's not about racism it's about identity.  After all you don't get black Asian Chinese do you???



oh fuck off


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Jan 12, 2010)

Blagsta said:


> oh fuck off


indeed, a quite remarkable set of opening posts there.


----------



## MrA (Jan 13, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> MR A has, repeatdly. You had a go at backing him up.



I was very careful with my words, I did say appear, you turned this into a pissing contest by being vague to score cheap points for some kind of victory. Even when I conceded that I was incorrect you kept harping on about it and then you refused to indulge me with you stance on the BNP to _help_ me understand you POV. 

If you are honest and you look back you will see why, as a newcomer, it was a simple mistake to make. I don't feel I have to apologise for not calling you a racist or a fascist but it that was your impression, then I apologise.





Bippitybop said:


> I realise that many people who support the BNP do so out of misplaced fear or misunderstanding. They aren't all just 'evil Nazis', some of them have genuine concerns and are directing their vitriol, in my opinion, at the wrong sources. These tend to be the voters or the average people who are slightly sympathetic towards the BNP rather than the hardcore campaigners or the MP's themselves for whom I have little but contempt for.



And this has been the prevailing position on MSF. 

When OKgirl started posting it was viewed as colluding when I engaged her and she was attacked because of her misplaced sympathies, by the chaps with this superior tactic, whatever the fuck that is. 

I do note that when VP engaged her in a similar manner his acolytes were very tight lipped, it seems the loony left can have the odd double standard too. I wonder if I'll get an apology, *doesn't hold breath*.


----------



## MrA (Jan 13, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> Did he? Where, because he denies he has ever been a fascist or racist?  Where does he push "racial purity"?  ( you didn't watch the video did you?)
> 
> Do you believe him when he says he isn't a racist or fascist?



Good point.

In my view, for what it's worth, potential BNP sympathisers who really aren't aware of BNP policies shouldn't be attacked as rabid racists (unless they are of course). Their issues/concerns, even if viewed as unreasonable or stupid, need to be addressed in a pragmatic and considered manner.

Highlighting the BNP as a racist and facist party is wholly appropriate IMO, by stripping away the veneer of respectability and fancy words to reveal their true agenda.

I have mixed views on the UAF, it must be an age thing, on the one hand seeing them on TV can be very off putting to the neutral or undecided, particularly around BNP, who latterly are being portrayed on TV as suit wearing political victims. On the other hand, the true Nazi scum be it BNP, Combat 18 or NF need a counter group. 

It was simple when I was young(er), just give all nazi scum a good slapping.


----------



## MrA (Jan 13, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> The BNP as currently constituted (in the proper meaning of the word) only push the "racial purity" and "anti-immigration" buttons, as their current stance is anti-big business and pro-democracy.
> Griffin *has* *previously*, pre-takover, professed his loyalty to fascist principles. He doesn't do so now. He may *be* a fascist, but if he isn't professing support for fascism, or campaigning on a fascist platform, then attacking him as a "Nazi" or "fascist" makes you look stupid and him look martyred by weirdos.



I can see your POV, but close scrutiny of the BNP manifesto and constitution suggests that there is an agenda of fascism and racism, surely then it should be highlighted? 

All political parties have a campaign agenda that hides the less palatable aspects of their policies, it is usually their opposition that expose these, why should it be different for the BNP? 

Clearly solely attacking Nick as nazi fascist is flawed, but pointing out inconsistancies with his policies and constitution that can be viewed as fascist or racist is appropriate.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 13, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> being deliberately obtuse, is no less stupid, especially when it's patently obvious to everyone you are avoiding the original question.


now about that conspiracy theory nutter you posted about some pages back, you've been avoiding questions about that.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 13, 2010)

MrA said:


> I can see your POV, but


everything before 'but' is always bullshit


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 13, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> Do you believe him when he says he isn't a racist or fascist?


does anyone believe you when you claim to be intelligent?


----------



## MrA (Jan 13, 2010)

Pickman's model said:


> everything before 'but' is always bullshit



Why do you persist in portraying yourself as a complete wanker.  Why can't you just address the fucking point, scoring points on post construction is another pointless divert. If this is the best you can do, please crawl back into the damp patch you wriggled from.

Or, if that inane post actually has some relevance try to qualify it, or is that beyond you? I think we all know the answer to that one.


----------



## Citizen66 (Jan 13, 2010)

"now I'm no racist, but..."


----------



## Boppity (Jan 13, 2010)

When a thread like this descend into semantics it's pretty much over. 

Nothing wrong with the word 'but' - get serious.


----------



## MrA (Jan 13, 2010)

Citizen66 said:


> "now I'm no racist, but..."




It's raining outside, but... 


It's all about context.


----------



## Knotted (Jan 13, 2010)

Indeed, in some contexts it isn't a cheap platitude.


----------



## Citizen66 (Jan 13, 2010)

MrA said:


> It's raining outside, but...
> 
> 
> It's all about context.



Bad example. Talking about the weather isn't making a statement about yours or someone else's position.


----------



## Boppity (Jan 13, 2010)

Citizen66 said:


> Bad example. Talking about the weather isn't making a statement about yours or someone else's position.



So it's not possible to understand someone's position whilst disagreeing with it?


----------



## Citizen66 (Jan 13, 2010)

Bippitybop said:


> So it's not possible to understand someone's position whilst disagreeing with it?



Of course it is. But when someone says "blah blah blah, but...." the bit before the but tends to be disingenous. "well no disrespect, but, I think you're a cunt." Etc


----------



## MrA (Jan 13, 2010)

Citizen66 said:


> Of course it is. But when someone says "blah blah blah, but...." the bit before the but tends to be disingenous. "well no disrespect, but, I think you're a cunt." Etc


----------



## Citizen66 (Jan 13, 2010)

Not  at all.

"now I'm no racist, but, I do tend to find asians are more rude than white people."

Not heard that script?


----------



## MrA (Jan 13, 2010)

Citizen66 said:


> Not  at all.
> 
> "now I'm no racist, but, I do tend to find asians are more rude than white people."
> 
> Not heard that script?



How is that remotely linked to what I wrote? 

_I can see your POV, but close scrutiny of the BNP manifesto and constitution suggests that there is an agenda of fascism and racism, surely then it should be highlighted? _

I ask a question based on my view, there's nothing negative about the POV of VP is there?


----------



## Citizen66 (Jan 13, 2010)

Anyway, I agree with what you're saying that the BNP's policies should be viewed in the context of Griffin's holocaust denial and Nazi sympathies and said as much pages ago.


----------



## JimPage (Jan 13, 2010)

In pratical terms, Griffin will not be jailed. The court case is on a Thursday- the BNP vote on constitutional amendments is on the following Saturday. The BNP will ask for and get, a week`s adjournment in this case, and that will be the end of the matter

Far more important issues out there, such as the 200 parliamentary candidates to deal with . 58 announced so far. 1,000 local election canddiates as well...


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 13, 2010)

mk12 said:


> I honestly did. Funnily enough (and I may have interpreted it incorrectly), I don't think it is radically different from what people like Butchers propogate.
> 
> Feel free to correct me if i'm wrong!



Well thankyou for being so honest. Sadly, political honesty is too often lacking.

As for the differences between Butch & I. I think he is of the 'ultra left', outside & against the unions, charities etc. He also seems to have adopted much IWCA theory & perspectives, but that is not Autonomous. Eg. the fetishistion of the BNP as respectable, & thus distancing himself from street activity & those many different groups who protest against the BNP.

The Autonomous position doesn't differentiate between organisations by separating Autonomy off, as if it were only possible if you are outside & against the unions for example. Autonomy seeks to mobilise everywhere & of course to link the different struggles.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Jan 13, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> Well thankyou for being so honest. Sadly, political honesty is too often lacking.
> 
> As for the differences between Butch & I. I think he is of the 'ultra left', outside & against the unions, charities etc. He also seems to have adopted much IWCA theory & perspectives, but that is not Autonomous. Eg. the fetishistion of the BNP as respectable, & thus distancing himself from street activity & those many different groups who protest against the BNP.
> 
> The Autonomous position doesn't differentiate between organisations by separating Autonomy off, as if it were only possible if you are outside & against the unions for example. Autonomy seeks to mobilise everywhere & of course to link the different struggles.









Embracing and celebrating the impossibility of coherence.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## MrA (Jan 13, 2010)

JimPage said:


> In pratical terms, Griffin will not be jailed. The court case is on a Thursday- the BNP vote on constitutional amendments is on the following Saturday. The BNP will ask for and get, a week`s adjournment in this case, and that will be the end of the matter
> 
> Far more important issues out there, such as the 200 parliamentary candidates to deal with . 58 announced so far. 1,000 local election canddiates as well...



I don't know how they can fund the election literature never mind the 200 parliamentary candidates, that's a lot of deposits to lose aswell and will their usual begging letters find much sympathy given thier financial mismanagement? 

The aim must be to counter their policies and lies and then highlight the more insidious policies and agenda.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 13, 2010)

Louis MacNeice said:


> Embracing and celebrating the impossibility of coherence.
> 
> Cheers - Louis MacNeice



That is all you post Louis. Snipes. 

Your much vaunted 'coherance' has, & will, achieve nothing. Cos its ultra left & without hope.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 13, 2010)

Louis MacNeice said:


> Embracing and celebrating the impossibility of coherence.
> 
> Cheers - Louis MacNeice



Remeber also, _context is key _-  depending on who you're talking to like.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Jan 13, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> That is all you post Louis. Snipes.
> 
> Your much vaunted 'coherance' has, & will, achieve nothing. Cos its ultra left & without hope.



And it's still more than you deserve.

Louis MacNeice


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 13, 2010)

Louis MacNeice said:


> And it's still more than you deserve.
> 
> Louis MacNeice



 Shite.


----------



## Blagsta (Jan 13, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> Well thankyou for being so honest. Sadly, political honesty is too often lacking.
> 
> As for the differences between Butch & I. I think he is of the 'ultra left', outside & against the unions, charities etc. He also seems to have adopted much IWCA theory & perspectives, but that is not Autonomous. Eg. the fetishistion of the BNP as respectable, & thus distancing himself from street activity & those many different groups who protest against the BNP.
> 
> The Autonomous position doesn't differentiate between organisations by separating Autonomy off, as if it were only possible if you are outside & against the unions for example. Autonomy seeks to mobilise everywhere & of course to link the different struggles.



Butchers anti-union?  I don't think so.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 13, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> If you want serious anti fascist theory try this;
> http://journal-articles.googlegroup...boGG1qiJ7UbTIup-M2XPURDRCtAIzYAd7ET1iMmRpdYsL



Didn't anyone ever tell you that self-praise (serious anti-fascist theory indeed! ) is no recommendation?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 13, 2010)

mk12 said:


> Don't ask me why, but i've just read it. I don't see how it's new or original in it's thinking to be honest.



It's very cruel of you to speak like that about TBH's hard work!


----------



## williammartin (Jan 13, 2010)

MrA said:


> I don't know how they can fund the election literature never mind the 200 parliamentary candidates, that's a lot of deposits to lose aswell and will their usual begging letters find much sympathy given thier financial mismanagement?
> .



Brons and Griffin are MEPs with the salaries and expenses that go with it.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 13, 2010)

MrA said:


> _I can see your POV, but close scrutiny of the BNP manifesto and constitution suggests that there is an agenda of fascism and racism, surely then it should be highlighted? _


1) as anyone who's ever worked for the employment service is reminded in training, 'but' is the central word in weak arguments. your post as a case in point, as

2) if you think that you need a *close* reading of the bnp manifesto & constitution to come to the hitherto unknown conclusion that the bnp has 'an agenda of racism and fascism' when everyone else could tell the same through a quick skim it doesn't mark you out as the sharpest pencil in the case.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 13, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> There is an established terminology, that should be used 'when the kettle fits'.
> 
> Ultra left. old left, has characteristics that the anarchists and posters on this site use without being aware of it.


So, in effect, it's a label you're attributing to them without actually explaining what makes them "old left/ultra-left", then?
How VERY constructive! 


> AS far as I know I am the first to try to hammer home this point, and as usual the messanger gets shot


You really do love to play the "martyred outsider" card, don't you?


> The anarchists are unaware of their ultra left obscurity, and if they are, pretend they are not a variety of the ultra left. With all its flaws.


So perhaps they're *not*, despite your labels, and it's actually you that's wrong, because you're more interested in proving that you possess a fine intellect than in engaging with substantiating the tags you put on people.


> I am trying, as you well know, to create a radical humanistic political synthesis for the 21st century and will continue to try to do so. What we are seeking, to have any chance of success, MUST abandon the ultra left and old left theory and characteristics to have any chance of success.


On the evidence so far, what you appear to be trying to create amounts to a lot of "look at me, aren't I clever", with the best contributions coming from people who aren't you or don't share your "vision".
You're like New Labour: Full of sound and fury, signifying *nothing*.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 13, 2010)

I think most constituencies can come up with £500. There might be a possibility of overstrech _a la _Tyndall and the NF in '79, but the BNP have put down proper roots nationally in a manner that the NF only managed is a very few areas - if they can do 600 candidates in the locals they should be able to do 200 in the general without too much fuss.


----------



## mk12 (Jan 13, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> It's very cruel of you to speak like that about TBH's hard work!



I spotted a grammatical error too


----------



## mk12 (Jan 13, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> I think most constituencies can come up with £500. There might be a possibility of overstrech _a la _Tyndall and the NF in '79, but the BNP have put down proper roots nationally in a manner that the NF only managed is a very few areas - if they can do 600 candidates in the locals they should be able to do 200 in the general without too much fuss.



That post isn't anti-BNP enough Butchers. It's neutral at best.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 13, 2010)

...and not a word about the charities either. Shocking.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 13, 2010)

MrA said:


> I don't know how they can fund the election literature never mind the 200 parliamentary candidates, that's a lot of deposits to lose aswell and will their usual begging letters find much sympathy given thier financial mismanagement?
> 
> The aim must be to counter their policies and lies and then highlight the more insidious policies and agenda.


you misunderstand the bnp, and their supporters and voters. on one level, some people support and vote for the bnp in a negative way: against eg the labour party, rather than for the bnp. but the bnp is an irrational party, and as such normal rational arguments, like the ones you'd like to see, go out the window. you'd be met with a 'yes they are racist, even so they are speaking for the likes of me' or 'no i don't care'. politics is not rational at the best of times, it is something which is not entirely reasonable, and where feelings count as much as, if not more than, well-structured arguments.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 13, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> being deliberately obtuse, is no less stupid, especially when it's patently obvious to everyone you are avoiding the original question.



Mmm, because that's what I've done, isn't it?

You're not even worth wasting a facepalm on.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 13, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> Did he? Where, because he denies he has ever been a fascist or racist?  Where does he push "racial purity"?  ( you didn't watch the video did you?)


Who gives a fuck about your youtube link? I'm going by the various policies and constitutional points the BNP has had while Griffin has been a member. It takes a bit more research than googling and then watching a video clip, but it's more rewarding.
You may like making narrow arguments based around sound-bites. Me, I like, if possible, to look a little deeper.


> Do you believe him when he says he isn't a racist or fascist?


No.
Would I believe him if he claimed his party wasn't "Nazi" or "fascist"? Yes, because it isn't, in the sense that it's constitution and policies don't fulfil some of the more important defining points of what is known as fascism, and doesn't practice "national socialism" as practiced by the NSDAP.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 13, 2010)

MrA said:


> Good point.
> 
> In my view, for what it's worth, potential BNP sympathisers who really aren't aware of BNP policies shouldn't be attacked as rabid racists (unless they are of course). Their issues/concerns, even if viewed as unreasonable or stupid, need to be addressed in a pragmatic and considered manner.
> 
> Highlighting the BNP as a racist and facist party is wholly appropriate IMO, by stripping away the veneer of respectability and fancy words to reveal their true agenda.


They're a racist party. That much is obvious from both their constitution and their current policies. You'd have to be using a very loose, almost "Neil the Hippy Student" definition of "fascist" to pin that label on them, unless you're operating on information about the private lives of the BNP membership that most people don't have access to.
People love chucking the word "fascist" around, but a lot of the time they don't even know (or seemingly care) what it means.


> I have mixed views on the UAF, it must be an age thing, on the one hand seeing them on TV can be very off putting to the neutral or undecided, particularly around BNP, who latterly are being portrayed on TV as suit wearing political victims. On the other hand, the true Nazi scum be it BNP, Combat 18 or NF need a counter group.


If by "counter group" you mean a loose alliance of anti-racist/anti-fascist.anti-Nazi elements, fair enough. If you mean a single organisation then you need to look to history and see whether that particular strategy has been successful. 
The big problem with having a unitary body is the urge to power. Usually by a particular political sect, and almost always with the same result.


> It was simple when I was young(er), just give all nazi scum a good slapping.


I remember it involving quite a lot of canvassing, asking people whether they knew what the NF's policies were *besides* the locally vote-friendly ones they trotted out on the doorstep, then giving them a kicking if they came back to the area.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 13, 2010)

MrA said:


> I can see your POV, but close scrutiny of the BNP manifesto and constitution suggests that there is an agenda of fascism and racism, surely then it should be highlighted?


Of course, but as far as "fascism", as defined in any dictionary, sociological dictionary or political lexicon is concerned, they've either buried it, or it doesn't accord with their *current* aims and it's been removed. The "racism" element is still there, of course, but it's been "re-styled" into the language of mainstream politics and uses the same tropes as mainstream politics does. Emphasising that behind those tropes lies something far darker (whereas with the mainstream parties the tropes are opportunism) is what makes sense, not name-calling.


> All political parties have a campaign agenda that hides the less palatable aspects of their policies, it is usually their opposition that expose these, why should it be different for the BNP?


It shouldn't, but calling them names that can't be pinned on them without a shed-load of explanation is pointless. If UAF spent as much time exposing the bones of the BNP's constitution and it's policies as they do thumbing their noses and shouting names, I'd be right behind them, but they don't.
Hell, even some of the supposedly serious anti-BNP elements push the line that people should be encouraged to vote "anyone but the BNP, but preferably Labour". Great stuff for perpetuating the circumstances that have helped the BNP gain credibility in the first place!


> Clearly solely attacking Nick as nazi fascist is flawed, but pointing out inconsistancies with his policies and constitution that can be viewed as fascist or racist is appropriate.


Of course, but it hardly ever happens, on the net or out in the world. Certainly only rarely in the mainstream media.


----------



## okgirl (Jan 13, 2010)

MrA said:


> How many do you actually know? Seriously. Anyway, wouldn't a Scotsman be a Scotsman and still be British? Asian is an ethnicity not a Nationality, what's more important?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 I get out and about all the time and meet people.  I base my views on my own experiences, granted I dare say you do too, but you see things your way and I see things my way.  I still consider this to be a Christian country and am rather alarmed at the amount of mosques there are around.  Indeed a church near me was recently changed into a mosque.  I don't like the way they like them to be the tallest building around either.

I lived in London for many years and witnessed and experienced the white flight syndrome.  I think it's perfectly natural to want to be with what you identify with.  Incidently I have no problem with ID cards.  I've nothing to hide.


----------



## Blagsta (Jan 13, 2010)

Why are you alarmed at the amount of mosques?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 13, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> I think most constituencies can come up with £500. There might be a possibility of overstrech _a la _Tyndall and the NF in '79, but the BNP have put down proper roots nationally in a manner that the NF only managed is a very few areas - if they can do 600 candidates in the locals they should be able to do 200 in the general without too much fuss.



IIRC the NF funded a lot of their candidate fees through strong-arming "donations" from members and through "gifts" from the usual suspects of the right-wing establishment, although I remember Webster trying to claim it was funded mainly through paper sales.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 13, 2010)

mk12 said:


> I spotted a grammatical error too



Proof-readers ain't what they used to be.


----------



## okgirl (Jan 13, 2010)

Blagsta said:


> What on earth is a "bogus asylum seeker"?



If you don't know I'm afraid there's no hope!


----------



## MrA (Jan 13, 2010)

williammartin said:


> Brons and Griffin are MEPs with the salaries and expenses that go with it.



Those funds must have been severely depleted by now I'd guess, the cost of standing in the Euros must have been substantial and the legal costs they incurred recently would have drained the finances further. 



Pickman's model said:


> 1) as anyone who's ever worked for the employment service is reminded in training, 'but' is the central word in weak arguments. your post as a case in point, as



Still arguing semantics , if you need an example of no argument at all, it's right in your post. #



Pickman's model said:


> 2) if you think that you need a *close* reading of the bnp manifesto & constitution to come to the hitherto unknown conclusion that the bnp has 'an agenda of racism and fascism' when everyone else could tell the same through a quick skim it doesn't mark you out as the sharpest pencil in the case.



On the one hand you state that the BNP do not have a racist or fascist manifesto and constitution, then in the next breath you say that it's obvious they do. Which is it? 
Also, if it was so obvious, why are there so many potential BNP voters who are unaware? You are focusing on the construction of paragraphs and words, content free trollery. 






ViolentPanda said:


> They're a racist party. That much is obvious from both their constitution and their current policies. You'd have to be using a very loose, almost "Neil the Hippy Student" definition of "fascist" to pin that label on them, unless you're operating on information about the private lives of the BNP membership that most people don't have access to.
> People love chucking the word "fascist" around, but a lot of the time they don't even know (or seemingly care) what it means.



Does it really matter? If fascism and racist are used in the same context, I'm not sure people are really concerned with semantics, it'smore about the sentiment imo.



ViolentPanda said:


> If by "counter group" you mean a loose alliance of anti-racist/anti-fascist.anti-Nazi elements, fair enough. If you mean a single organisation then you need to look to history and see whether that particular strategy has been successful.
> The big problem with having a unitary body is the urge to power. Usually by a particular political sect, and almost always with the same result.



It was never organised when I was younger, just opportunist or a  spur of the moment reaction. 



ViolentPanda said:


> I remember it involving quite a lot of canvassing, asking people whether they knew what the NF's policies were *besides* the locally vote-friendly ones they trotted out on the doorstep, then giving them a kicking if they came back to the area.


----------



## Blagsta (Jan 13, 2010)

okgirl said:


> If you don't know I'm afraid there's no hope!



You obviously don't know what you mean by the term.


----------



## okgirl (Jan 13, 2010)

Blagsta said:


> oh fuck off



No!


----------



## Blagsta (Jan 13, 2010)

okgirl said:


> No!



you're a bright spark aren't you


----------



## audiotech (Jan 13, 2010)

You've failed to address my point as yet on the BNP's leadership principle and whether you agree with it, or not okgirl?


----------



## MrA (Jan 13, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> Of course, but as far as "fascism", as defined in any dictionary, sociological dictionary or political lexicon is concerned, they've either buried it, or it doesn't accord with their *current* aims and it's been removed. The "racism" element is still there, of course, but it's been "re-styled" into the language of mainstream politics and uses the same tropes as mainstream politics does. Emphasising that behind those tropes lies something far darker (whereas with the mainstream parties the tropes are opportunism) is what makes sense, not name-calling.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



100% agree. 





butchersapron said:


> I think most constituencies can come up with £500. There might be a possibility of overstrech _a la _Tyndall and the NF in '79, but the BNP have put down proper roots nationally in a manner that the NF only managed is a very few areas - if they can do 600 candidates in the locals they should be able to do 200 in the general without too much fuss.



I didn't realise it was so little to stand for election. It would still be dent in the finances given the rigmarole surrounding the BNP accounts recently and how much would the campaign costs be? It would soon tot up.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 13, 2010)

MC5 said:


> You've failed to address my point as yet on the BNP's leadership principle and whether you agree with it, or not okgirl?



Perhaps she'd recognise it by it's proper name, the _Führerprinzip_?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 13, 2010)

MrA said:


> I didn't realise it was so little to stand for election. It would still be dent in the finances given the rigmarole surrounding the BNP accounts recently and how much would the campaign costs be? It would soon tot up.



Thing is, there's almost always (and I say "almost" because I can't be sure about 100% of cases) money and power lurking in the background, hedging its bets by spreading it's bread on the hard-right waters. I wouldn't be surprised if a large series of small donations get made in the next 6 months or so.
As for campaign costs, that generally depends on how much can be defrayed to the local membership. If you can get local members to take the cost burden, then your campaign expenses miraculously drop, and a small party can pull flankers that a larger, more professional political party wouldn't indulge in.
I can't see them having a problem with finances, except maybe how to explain them.


----------



## audiotech (Jan 13, 2010)




----------



## okgirl (Jan 13, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> What do you mean by "the growth of Islam"? Do you mean it is expanding it's base of followers in the UK, or that it's becoming a more visible political force?
> 
> Define what you mean by "too many", please.
> 
> ...



If by all accounts our population is heading for 7o million I think that figure speaks for itself.  We do not have the infrastructure to support such a number.

Of course I don't have the figures for scam marriages but I can read the papers and listen to the tv but even more importantly I was asked if I would marry a Turk for around £8000 but refused (obviously). Last year our local registry office was in the papers speaking of their concerns about the.  It was BBC News 24 in any case where they filmed a Roma willing to marry someone and they did not even speak the same language ffs. I have worked in the past for Turkish people and they regularly employed ilegal immigrants.  As regards bogus asylum seekers thank god the media press etc.  There has to be someway of find out the truth regards these people who undoubtedly exist.

I would say that a degree in Greek mythology was a wasted degree.  That's not to say it isn't interesting but to my mind it should be a hobby.  There are too many people doing Media Studies for instance and I would add Psychology to that list too not to stop it completely for obvious reasons but certainly to cut numbers.

I lived in London for many years and am on the outskirts of it now.  I'm quite well travelled and meet plenty of people all the time.


----------



## okgirl (Jan 13, 2010)

MC5 said:


>



Imbecile


----------



## LLETSA (Jan 13, 2010)

okgirl said:


> I was asked if I would marry a Turk for around £8000 but refused (obviously).




I bet you were.

I'd have married him for eight thousand quid.


----------



## Blagsta (Jan 13, 2010)

okgirl said:


> If by all accounts our population is heading for 7o million I think that figure speaks for itself.  We do not have the infrastructure to support such a number.
> 
> Of course I don't have the figures for scam marriages but I can read the papers and listen to the tv but even more importantly I was asked if I would marry a Turk for around £8000 but refused (obviously). Last year our local registry office was in the papers speaking of their concerns about the.  It was BBC News 24 in any case where they filmed a Roma willing to marry someone and they did not even speak the same language ffs. I have worked in the past for Turkish people and they regularly employed ilegal immigrants.  As regards bogus asylum seekers thank god the media press etc.  There has to be someway of find out the truth regards these people who undoubtedly exist.
> 
> ...



Jesus Christ


----------



## Boppity (Jan 13, 2010)

LLETSA said:


> I bet you were.
> 
> I'd have married him for eight thousand quid.



I'd have married him for eighty quid and a big mac.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 13, 2010)

MrA said:


> Does it really matter? If fascism and racist are used in the same context, I'm not sure people are really concerned with semantics, it'smore about the sentiment imo.


I'd say that it matters, depending on who you're trying to talk to. A youngster may not make a distinction, but someone of my mum's age (she was a schoolgirl during Mosley's last gasp in the '50s) tends to differentiate between "fascist" and "racist", as do plenty of us who were born in the 50s and 60s.


> It was never organised when I was younger, just opportunist or a  spur of the moment reaction.


There were plenty of "organisers", that's for sure. I can remember the Swappies talking a good fight, but only a few of them actually putting it on the line. Mind you, a lot of anti-fascists back then were autonomous. Some of us did it because of our history, some because we'd grown up in "multicultural" surroundings and couldn't understand the point of racism, and some of us because we liked a good fight, and going one-on-one against people whose usual practice was for half a dozen of them to give a kicking to a single bloke or woman felt good. I confess that all the above reasons applied to me.


----------



## audiotech (Jan 13, 2010)

okgirl said:


> Imbecile



His appearance on question time confirmed Griffin's imbecility. You're not far behind in those stakes.


----------



## okgirl (Jan 13, 2010)

Blagsta said:


> You obviously don't know what you mean by the term.



I'll give you a hint then shall I? it's similar to the way you try to convince this forum that you have a brain!


----------



## Random (Jan 13, 2010)

okgirl said:


> I'll give you a hint then shall I? it's similar to the way you try to convince this forum that you have a brain!



i know you are, but what am i?


----------



## Blagsta (Jan 13, 2010)

okgirl said:


> I'll give you a hint then shall I? it's similar to the way you try to convince this forum that you have a brain!



You're too clever for me.


----------



## okgirl (Jan 13, 2010)

Blagsta said:


> you're a bright spark aren't you



Thank you


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 13, 2010)

okgirl said:


> I'll give you a hint then shall I? it's similar to the way you try to convince this forum that you have a brain!



Why wouldn't you marry that turkish bloke?


----------



## Random (Jan 13, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> Why wouldn't you marry that turkish bloke?



He kept going on and on about Greek mythology


----------



## Boppity (Jan 13, 2010)

Random said:


> He kept going on and on about Greek mythology



And Media Studies.


----------



## okgirl (Jan 13, 2010)

LLETSA said:


> I bet you were.
> 
> I'd have married him for eight thousand quid.



That is nothing to spout off about! besides I owned my home at the time and I would have been many more thousands of pounds worse ofF.

Dont you have any scruples then?


----------



## Random (Jan 13, 2010)

Bippitybop said:


> And Media Studies.



Once he said 'Jonathan Ross has a narcissistic complex' and she realised he represented all that she hated


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 13, 2010)

okgirl said:


> ofF.



How did you manage that - even i don't get things that wrong.


----------



## okgirl (Jan 13, 2010)

Blagsta said:


> Jesus Christ



What's your problem?


----------



## Blagsta (Jan 13, 2010)

okgirl said:


> What's your problem?



you're an idiot


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 13, 2010)

okgirl said:


> If by all accounts our population is heading for 7o million I think that figure speaks for itself.  We do not have the infrastructure to support such a number.


Depends whose account you believe.
If you're looking at the statistics from the independent Office for National Statistics, then our net gain, in terms of immigration and births weighed against emigration and deaths, varies between 200,000-300,000.
If you're looking at Migrationwatch's slightly misleading figures, it's much greater, *but* Migrationwatch conveniently count EU guestworkers as immigrants, even though it's been established that 80%+/- leave within 30 months.
Guess which figures the BNP use?


> Of course I don't have the figures for scam marriages but I can read the papers and listen to the tv...


Didn't your granny ever tell you "don't believe everything you read" or "read between the lines"?
Obviously not, or you'd know that the volume of scam marriages is unquantifiable, so it might be a tiny problem confined to inner city registry offices, or a nationwide tide of criminality.
Just because a journo makes a feature out of an issue, doesn't mean the issue is anything other than a local (mostly to London and Luton) phenomenon.


> but even more importantly I was asked if I would marry a Turk for around £8000 but refused (obviously).


Poor turk. 


> Last year our local registry office was in the papers speaking of their concerns about the.  It was BBC News 24 in any case where they filmed a Roma willing to marry someone and they did not even speak the same language ffs.


Yes, I listened to that. It didn't try to make a case that this was happening on a country-wide large scale though, did it? 


> I have worked in the past for Turkish people and they regularly employed ilegal immigrants.


So do reputable companies and business owned by white people. It's called Capitalism.


> As regards bogus asylum seekers thank god the media press etc.  There has to be someway of find out the truth regards these people who undoubtedly exist.


Yes, thank G-d for the media indeed. How would we know about this pernicious and yet strangely unquantifiable threat without them, eh?
Let me give you a few pointers about the whole "asylum-seeking" thing.
In 2007 approx 32,000 people applied for asylum, approx 7,000 claims were granted, about 6,000 were deported, and the rest were either undergoing the appeals procedure or were section 4'ed (awaiting deportation).
There's no such thing as a "bogus" asylum seeker, there's successful asylum seekers and failed asylum seekers,. "Bogus" is just a label politicos attach to the issue so that they can play to the crowd and have those who're too stupid to discern otherwise fall for their _spiel_.


> I would say that a degree in Greek mythology was a wasted degree.


Not, for example, if you wish to specialise in the Greeks as an archaeologist.  


> That's not to say it isn't interesting but to my mind it should be a hobby.


Which would mean that eventually our understanding of Greek (or Roman or Romano-British or Romano-Celt or Anglo-Saxon history would go the same way.
Great.
I thought that Griffin supported the idea of having a sense of your national identity? Without a decent understanding of history, of where our various traditions came from, that is impossible. 


> There are too many people doing Media Studies for instance...


Really? 
Depends how you define "too many", given that the subject has been contracting in the number of students that take it for years now. Your tabloid prejudices are a bit dated, I'm afraid. 


> and I would add Psychology to that list too not to stop it completely for obvious reasons but certainly to cut numbers.


Because...?


> I lived in London for many years and am on the outskirts of it now.  I'm quite well travelled and meet plenty of people all the time.


And yet you're quite close-minded and opinionated rather than informed. Do the wicked dark-skinned people scare you?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 13, 2010)

okgirl said:


> Imbecile



He is.

He's used totally the wrong font in his photo-shopping. Anyone can see that "BNP" isn't in the same lettering as "macht frei".


----------



## Random (Jan 13, 2010)

I salute VP's courage and indefatigability


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 13, 2010)

LLETSA said:


> I bet you were.
> 
> I'd have married him for eight thousand quid.



I'd have let him practice "the Turkish vice" on me for £8,000, just as long as he washed first and wore a condom.


----------



## okgirl (Jan 13, 2010)

MrA said:


> Source
> 
> _The British National party is facing a crisis in the run-up to the general election after it emerged that Nick Griffin, its leader, could be jailed over its illegal “whites only” membership policy._
> 
> Here's hoping!!



If that's the case then maybe The East of England Black and Minority Ethnic Network employees should all be jailed then?

Perhaps backers of Black beauty contests should also be banned or jailed also?


----------



## LLETSA (Jan 13, 2010)

Bippitybop said:


> I'd have married him for eighty quid and a big mac.





Yes, but I'm male and already married. There's got to be some financial incentive.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 13, 2010)

Random said:


> I salute VP's courage and indefatigability



I don't need any salutes from you, Galloway, you cat-impersonating _schlemiel_!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 13, 2010)

okgirl said:


> If that's the case then maybe The East of England Black and Minority Ethnic Network employees should all be jailed then?
> 
> Perhaps backers of Black beauty contests should also be banned or jailed also?



Why? Are they legally-constituted political membership organisations like the BNP?
If they're not comparable in that way, then you're displaying a profound case of what I like to diagnose as "gross fucking stupidity".


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 13, 2010)

LLETSA said:


> Yes, but I'm male and already married. There's got to be some financial incentive.


And something to appease Mrs. LLETSA with, before she stoves in your head for bigamy.


----------



## fractionMan (Jan 13, 2010)

okgirl said:


> If by all accounts our population is heading for 7o million I think that figure speaks for itself.  We do not have the infrastructure to support such a number.
> 
> Of course I don't have the figures for scam marriages but I can read the papers and listen to the tv but even more importantly I was asked if I would marry a Turk for around £8000 but refused (obviously). Last year our local registry office was in the papers speaking of their concerns about the.  It was BBC News 24 in any case where they filmed a Roma willing to marry someone and they did not even speak the same language ffs. I have worked in the past for Turkish people and they regularly employed ilegal immigrants.  As regards bogus asylum seekers thank god the media press etc.  There has to be someway of find out the truth regards these people who undoubtedly exist.
> 
> ...



oh dear


----------



## Random (Jan 13, 2010)

Hold on chaps, I'm sure The Black Hand will be over soon to give some really good anti-BNP arguments and set this okgirl poster straight


----------



## Spymaster (Jan 13, 2010)

Hi Okgirl, I've just been reading your comments on this thread. May I ask your (approximate ) age?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 13, 2010)

Random said:


> Hold on chaps, I'm sure The Black Hand will be over soon to give some really good anti-BNP arguments and set this okgirl poster straight



He'd probably prefer to slip her some praxis, don't you think?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 13, 2010)

Spymaster said:


> Hi Okgirl, I've just been reading your comments on this thread. May I ask your (approximate ) age?



Always trying to chat up the women, eh spy?


----------



## Random (Jan 13, 2010)

she's old enough to marry a turk.  So at least 9


----------



## Tacita (Jan 13, 2010)

in case okgirl wants to know why posters are jumping at the phrase 'bogus' asylum seekers


> •There is no such thing as an ‘illegal’ or ‘bogus’ asylum seeker. Under international law, anyone has the right to apply for asylum in the UK and to remain here until the authorities have assessed their claim.


from the refugee council site
Worth a read 


/trying to think well of people]


eta
just read subsequent okg post. given up


----------



## Spymaster (Jan 13, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> Always trying to chat up the women, eh spy?



I don't think she'd have me mate, being a darkie and all that .....


----------



## Spymaster (Jan 13, 2010)

Actually I think she's Firky.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 13, 2010)




----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 13, 2010)

Spymaster said:


> I don't think she'd have me mate, being a darkie and all that .....



Yeah, but don't you darkies have mysterious ways of enticing white women into carnal relations with you, or was that just racist propaganda to scare white blokes into worrying that every bloke with a darker skin than Count Dracula wanted to shag their (invariably boot-faced) wives? 

I think we should be told.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 13, 2010)

Spymaster said:


> Actually I think she's Firky.



Well, I always thought that once you chopped his cock off, firky would make an ok girl.


----------



## Citizen66 (Jan 13, 2010)

okgirl said:


> I don't like the way they like them to be the tallest building around either.



Whitechapel Mosque completely dwarfs the the Lloyds building.


----------



## Citizen66 (Jan 13, 2010)

okgirl said:


> Black beauty contests



Does the person who looks the most like a horse from TV win the mars bar?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 13, 2010)

MrA said:


> On the one hand you state that the BNP do not have a racist or fascist manifesto and constitution, then in the next breath you say that it's obvious they do. Which is it?
> Also, if it was so obvious, why are there so many potential BNP voters who are unaware? You are focusing on the construction of paragraphs and words, content free trollery.


i focus on what you say because it's only way i or anyone else on these boards of judging what you're on about. and you're talking a load of wank as far as i can see, i would be interested to see where i've said that they don't have a racist or fascist manifesto and constitution. i said you were thick and now i think that, in lenin's immortal phrase, you're thick as pigshit.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 13, 2010)

MrA said:


> On the one hand you state that the BNP do not have a racist or fascist manifesto and constitution, then in the next breath you say that it's obvious they do. Which is it


in fact i'll go further, you're a lying little cunt with all the attractive features of a pool of dog's vomit with a steaming turd in it.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 13, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> A) So, in effect, it's a label you're attributing to them without actually explaining what makes them "old left/ultra-left", then?
> How VERY constructive!
> 
> B) You really do love to play the "martyred outsider" card, don't you?
> ...



A) I may do one day, I took it as read that people SHOULD know. Anybody familiar with the post war New Left should be able to see it. TBH I do know that lots of people have got fucked off with the anarchist movement and fucked off cos its virtually illiterate

B) I is unclean, and it is shocking Part of the anarchist movements attitude towards me is pathetic, it would be tragic if it weren't so sad etc...

C) There is plenty of evidence that they ARE, I would beware of trying to assume or argue that people should 'do something like this, this way, in this order'. Social life is not like that, it is not all neat and teleological.

I do not know why I am your hobby horse all of a sudden either VP.

D) Give it a rest VP, this website is shite as Larry pointed out the other day. 
Sometimes you say things that are worth listening too, Rod too, Udo, TrevHagl, etc I am struggling and cannot think of any other contributors off the top of my head I like reading. Certainly not the 'anti fascist in crowd', its like the library at the morgue reading what they post. Dead before it is born. 

AS for signifying something, like Sartre I try to give history the meaning I see fit, with my class struggle priorities. I certainly am clear in taking part in the movement I wish to encourage. I am leaving a trace that will live beyond my lifetime, and that I am happy with. eg. There's a book on pirates out recently that I did some blurb for, and I also made into the text/references. That is good 

Here is the link to the book in question;
https://secure.pmpress.org/index.php?l=product_detail&p=178


----------



## MrA (Jan 13, 2010)

Pickman's model said:


> i focus on what you say because it's only way i or_* anyone else *_on these boards of judging what you're on about. and you're talking a load of wank _*as far as i can see*_,i would be interested to see where i've said that they don't have a racist or fascist manifesto and constitution. i said you were thick and now i think that, in lenin's immortal phrase, you're thick as pigshit.



On one hand it's _*anyone else,*_ next it's _*as far as you I see*_, which is it? You're a pompous arrogant prick.
Lenin was a cunt and you are an even bigger cunt, there's nothing substantive about your posts. You're a little man with a little mentality.




Pickman's model said:


> in fact i'll go further, you're a lying little cunt with all the attractive features of a pool of dog's vomit with a steaming turd in it.



How old are you? it's easy to be a big man on the internet in the safe knowledge you don't have to back up your comments. Weak, content free bullshit. 
If you can demonstrate I'm a liar, then I'll quit this forum. If not skulk away like the little twisted bitch that you are.


----------



## MrA (Jan 13, 2010)

Random said:


> Hold on chaps, I'm sure The Black Hand will be over soon to give some really good anti-BNP arguments and set this okgirl poster straight



He'll do a lot better then some others on here.

 I find it incredible that different views on the BNP from the same side can be so destructive to one another.

My initial impression is that butchers and pickmans are confrontational twats who seem to be more interested in trying to make themselves look like internet hardmen at the expense of people who share their opposition to the BNP.

Cunts is an appropriate label..


----------



## Spymaster (Jan 13, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> Yeah, but don't you darkies have mysterious ways of enticing white women into carnal relations with you .....



It's not that mysterious maaaaaan, we just got the big dix. An' any beeetch say no, we slap dem down maaaaan. 

Innit?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 14, 2010)

MrA said:


> On one hand it's _*anyone else,*_ next it's _*as far as you I see*_, which is it? You're a pompous arrogant prick.
> Lenin was a cunt and you are an even bigger cunt, there's nothing substantive about your posts. You're a little man with a little mentality.


and you've a great pigmy of an intellect which you're proud to display in all its tarnished glory. so i'm a bigger cunt than lenin? what have i done that's worse than what lenin did? 






> How old are you?


old enough not to have to make up lies about what people have said.





> it's easy to be a big man on the internet in the safe knowledge you don't have to back up your comments.


which is very lucky for you, isn't it.





> On the one hand you state that the BNP do not have a racist or fascist manifesto and constitution, then in the next breath you say that it's obvious they do.





> Weak, content free bullshit.


quite.





> If you can demonstrate I'm a liar, then I'll quit this forum. If not skulk away like the little twisted bitch that you are.


on your way then. i never denied the bnp's racism or fascism. don't forget to shut the door on your way out.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 14, 2010)

*taps watch*


----------



## newbie (Jan 14, 2010)

classic thread, well done folks, 2010 is shaping up well 



okgirl said:


> I think it's perfectly natural to want to be with what you identify with.



Is it? I've never understood this, it's been puzzling me for years.  From what I've seen, as soon as people have the means and opportunity they seek out new experiences, new and hopefully better surroundings. 

Given the chance people seem to embrace change, from what they eat and drink to where they live. Stats show that something like 10% of us move around every year (with a broad north to south trend), which fits with my observations. Do you see any different?  

So what's the psychology behind _wanting_ the "perfectly natural" stick with what you know yet _doing_ the exact opposite?


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 14, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> Proof-readers ain't what they used to be.


 It wasn't prrof read & i do not care. As ever content is more important than gramattical perfection


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 14, 2010)

newbie said:


> classic thread, well done folks, 2010 is shaping up well



Quite, ultra left and old left habits are still alive unfortunately.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 14, 2010)

MrA said:


> He'll do a lot better then some others on here.
> 
> I find it incredible that different views on the BNP from the same side can be so destructive to one another.
> 
> ...



Cheers.

Don't forget - they _do_ know best. Their ideas are definately open and libertarian, and they are not overloading and attacking those who see things differently. 

If you can't see that is characteristic of the sectarian, monolithic and modernist old left party form VP your judgement is not as good as i thought it was. 

Contra to those ways I argue for pluralism *within* anti fascism, it should NOT be 'my way _or_ the highway'. 

Given the state of class consciousness about fascism and Nazis in the UK, then trying to impose in advance one way of seeing the BNP does not help mobilisation around the country, across group boundaries, including civil society. That is obvious to me. That is part of the reason why eg. the IWCA is just a new version of an ultra left party form, the movement is what is important and that means the actual class struggle, the links/connections etc. Not hard left rhetoric which poisons debate in advance.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 14, 2010)

JimW said:


> A) I'd agree, but the other side of the coin is spouting any old random bollocks is even less use.
> 
> 
> B) And this is that sort of bollocks, coupled with the arrogance you have a go at others for - you get to _say who's in the class struggle and who isn't_? Who isn't imperfect?
> ...



A) Straw man. There are other ways of doing things, just because you are not aware of them doesn't mean they are not there.

B) Arrogance? It iss called having a different working class perspective, there are many you know. The IWCA is a working class project certainly, to try and realise a version of class consciousness, but it isn't class struggle. There are differences you know. That is not to say that doing IWCA is not a struggle, just not a class struggle.

C) I am not implying bad motives. Ages ago I said that is what your version of anti fascism _looks like_, and lo, it has come to pass that several other people have come to that conclusion totally uninfluenced by me. 

Again, it is *a problem with your version of anti fascism*, not ours or anybody who comes to that conclusion. Again, I have no problem with your analysis (but that is not to say I agree with it) but it is the way it is presented that is the problem.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 14, 2010)

*taps watch*


----------



## MrA (Jan 14, 2010)

Pickman's model said:


> *taps watch*



If this is directed at me then I'm sorry to let you know that we all can't be 24/7 internet warriors. Some of us have lives.

I'll respond later when I've got nothing better to do.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 14, 2010)

MrA said:


> If this is directed at me then I'm sorry to let you know that we all can't be 24/7 internet warriors. Some of us have lives.
> 
> I'll respond later when I've got nothing better to do.


don't bother: you said if i could demonstrate you were a liar then you'd be on your way.


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 14, 2010)

> originally quoted by The Black Hand
> 
> AS for signifying something, *like Sartre *I try to give history the meaning I see fit, with my class struggle priorities



Too modest imo. Reminds me of the description by Jim Higgins about Tony cliff's biography of  Lenin which Higgins likened it to a book on St Paul written by Jesus Christ


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 14, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> A) I may do one day, I took it as read that people SHOULD know. Anybody familiar with the post war New Left should be able to see it. TBH I do know that lots of people have got fucked off with the anarchist movement and fucked off cos its virtually illiterate


This presupposes, though, that your definition of "old left/ultra-left" corresponds with historical actuality rather than mythology, and so far you've done little to convince that this is indeed the case.


> B) I is unclean, and it is shocking Part of the anarchist movements attitude towards me is pathetic, it would be tragic if it weren't so sad etc...


Do you have Hansen's Disease, then? I thought it was easily treated with antibiotics nowadays, and that the bell and robe were no longer necessary.
As for "the anarchist movement", I wasn't aware there was one.
In fact, isn't it one of your bug-bears that there's no unitary movement for you to lead convince into action with the force of your arguments (given that many of the small organisations have anathematised you like unto  a Pontiff anathematising a heretic)?  


> C) There is plenty of evidence that they ARE, I would beware of trying to assume or argue that people should 'do something like this, this way, in this order'. Social life is not like that, it is not all neat and teleological.


There's plenty of evidence that people accord to the criteria for your labels, but you're unwilling to share the criteria with us? 


> I do not know why I am your hobby horse all of a sudden either VP.


You're not. I like to ask questions.


> D) Give it a rest VP, this website is shite as Larry pointed out the other day.
> Sometimes you say things that are worth listening too, Rod too, Udo, TrevHagl, etc I am struggling and cannot think of any other contributors off the top of my head I like reading. Certainly not the 'anti fascist in crowd', its like the library at the morgue reading what they post. Dead before it is born.


If this site is shite, why soil yourself by contributing to it? Could it be because you're one of those people who needs an audience, however many tomatoes they pelt you with?  


> AS for signifying something, like Sartre I try to give history the meaning I see fit with my class struggle priorities. I certainly am clear in taking part in the movement I wish to encourage. I am leaving a trace that will live beyond my lifetime, and that I am happy with.


So this is about immortality for you, a form of immortality through leaving a political legacy, through leaving your mark in the class struggle?
If so then it's not about your "class struggle priorities", surely, but about your need or desire for recognition?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 14, 2010)

Spymaster said:


> It's not that mysterious maaaaaan, we just got the big dix. An' any beeetch say no, we slap dem down maaaaan.
> 
> Innit?



Ah, so THINK! was right about the big dicks, then?


----------



## LLETSA (Jan 14, 2010)

The39thStep said:


> Too modest imo. Reminds me of the description by Jim Higgins about Tony cliff's biography of  Lenin which Higgins likened it to a book on St Paul written by Jesus Christ





Funnily enough, hardly anybody knows what the fuck Sartre was on about either.


----------



## audiotech (Jan 14, 2010)

LLETSA said:


> Funnily enough, hardly anybody knows what the fuck Sartre was on about either.



So true.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jan 14, 2010)

MrA said:


> He'll do a lot better then some others on here.
> 
> I find it incredible that different views on the BNP from the same side can be so destructive to one another.
> My initial impression is that butchers and pickmans are confrontational twats who seem to be more interested in trying to make themselves look like internet hardmen at the expense of people who share their opposition to the BNP.
> ...


quick learner. so stop wasting your time, do what you think is most productive.



SAD!  Any real anarchist know's, having a variety of approaches to the same problem, differences of opinion, is a good thing.


----------



## Knotted (Jan 14, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> SAD!  Any real anarchist know's, having a variety of approaches to the same problem, differences of opinion, is a good thing.



That's popular frontists not anarchists.


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 14, 2010)

Knotted said:


> That's popular frontists not anarchists.



I didn't think that anarchists were allowed to have one opinion.


----------



## MrA (Jan 14, 2010)

Pickman's model said:


> don't bother: you said if i could demonstrate you were a liar then you'd be on your way.



Which you haven't, look up the definition of a lie. 

Since joining U75 all the far lefties have been every bit as bad as the far righties that I encounter on forums.

1. One dimensional thinking.
2. Believe that only they are 100% right.
3. Attack the construction and sementics of a post rather than debate the issue.
4. Have to "win" at all costs.

So, before this degenerates into a pointless full scale flame fest I'm going to stop. There,you can claim you won now,  Well done.


----------



## Blagsta (Jan 14, 2010)

your debating skills leave a lot to be desired


----------



## Spymaster (Jan 14, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> Ah, so THINK! was right about big dicks, then?



Only if he said he is one.


----------



## JimW (Jan 14, 2010)

MrA said:


> Which you haven't, look up the definition of a lie.
> 
> Since joining U75 all the far lefties have been every bit as bad as the far righties that I encounter on forums.
> 
> ...



Wasn't the story more like your only points of any substance were refuted or otherwise addressed some time in the dim and misty past of this interminable thread, then we've had all this meta-commentary because that alone wasn't good enough for you if unaccompanied by a UAF lollipop or recitation of the boy scout's anti-fascist code? So come down from the high horse.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 14, 2010)

MrA said:


> Which you haven't, look up the definition of a lie.


a lie is a claim which is demonstrably false, as per your claim that 





> you state that the BNP do not have a racist or fascist manifesto and constitution, then in the next breath you say that it's obvious they do


when i said nothing of the sort. if you're going to wander about making up things to suit your agenda, you should be used to having your mendacity pointed out rather forcefully.

on your way now.


----------



## MrA (Jan 14, 2010)

JimW said:


> Wasn't the story more like your only points of any substance were refuted



Actually there was one point that I had to concede because I was wrong, that was stated quite a while ago. If I am wrong I will admit it, if I have POV that's my entitlement, I am no different to billions of other normal people who repsond in a similar manner to the one in which I am engaged. 
So with the likes of TBH and VP who clearly have differing stances regarding this subject I can read what they say, even if it contradicts my own personal view, without feeling that it's turning into a pissing contest.



> good enough for you if unaccompanied by a UAF lollipop or recitation of the boy scout's anti-fascist code? So come down from the high horse.



Can you see the irony in this post?


----------



## JimW (Jan 14, 2010)

MrA said:


> ....
> 
> Can you see the irony in this post?



Not really; you stripped out the "or addressed" in your quote above, which is a bit naughty and not a sign of good faith, and I'm not the one who's been banging on at such tedious length. My horse is a pony. Lovely mane.


----------



## MrA (Jan 14, 2010)

Pickman's model said:


> a lie is a claim which is demonstrably false, as per your claim that when i said nothing of the sort. if you're going to wander about making up things to suit your agenda, you should be used to having your mendacity pointed out rather forcefully.
> 
> on your way now.



*yawn*


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 14, 2010)

so much for your claims of what you'd do if proven to be a liar.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 14, 2010)

MrA said:


> If I am wrong I will admit it


go on then, if you mean what you say here you'll have to admit you were wrong to post 





> you state that the BNP do not have a racist or fascist manifesto and constitution, then in the next breath you say that it's obvious they do


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 14, 2010)

Mr A - you seem unable to see that it was precisely _your_ being in the wrong and the defensive justifications _you_ tried to introduce following on from that (that i'm BNP etc) that started everything off - that wasn't just some irrelevant side issue. You acted appallingly and opened the door for all the other shit - the people piggybacking on your posts with their own long standing agendas - agendas _you_ may not be able to spot but which longer standing members here are more than aware of (in brief you were manupilated by them). 

You started off offering opinion on the possibility of Nick griffin being jailed, i responded sensibly and informatively. You then suggested that forcible repatriation is BNP policy, i told you - correctly as you say you now concede - that it is not. You then suggested _i might be BNP_ thereby poisoning any attempts at further discussion. 

This is a situation of your own making and it genuinely beggars belief that you really are trying to blame it on anyone else. I even decided to just ignore all the shit and went back to responding to your posts in the orignal manner just to move the issue on, and instead of acting in like manner in order to achieve the same you re-appeared frothing at the mouth calling me (and others) _cunts_, _twats_ and _twisted bitches_ etc out of the blue.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 14, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> Yet you seem unable to see that it was precisely _your_ being in the wrong


----------



## MrA (Jan 14, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> Mr A - you seem unable to see that it was precisely _your_ being in the wrong and the defensive justifications _you_ tried to introduce following on from that (that i'm BNP etc) that started everything off - that wasn't just some irrelevant side issue.



In mitigation, I was trying to make a point about the BNP agenda and made the "incorrect" statement about BNP non white expulsion policy, I didn't know you from Adam, and tbh, I've been posting for too long on racist websites I mistook your comments for something that they were not. 
I did ask for clarification which if given would have exacted an apology much sooner from me. It was only when VP made everything clear that I attempted to be concilliatory, but it didn't really improve because it seems that you feel the need _win _for what it's worth.

As for other agendas, that isn't my issue. They would have surfaced at some point as they invariably do on these types of forums.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 14, 2010)

MrA said:


> I did ask for clarification which if given would have exacted an apology much sooner from me.


= it's always someone else's fault


----------



## MrA (Jan 14, 2010)

Pickman's model said:


> = it's always someone else's fault



 This  where I conceded the point.

 Here's  where I post to butchers again and his  reply without giving a reason why he disagreed, that's vague isn't it?

So with his lack of clarity he asked for clarity from me,  which I obliged.

Then he makes  this  post restating the point I had already conceded, this appears as though he's just point scoring for the sake of being a dick, moving on to argue what _recent_ is or isn't without stating a position of his own. 

I threw out olive branches throughout this thread but you and he just ignored them as you went out of your way to be hostile. 

I'm not going to labour this any further, I shouldn't have flamed or made insults to people I don't know is pretty dumb, but it was alchohol fuelled, I still can't fathom why I called Lenin a cunt either. 

But if you want some kind of victory from this then I'm not bothered, it's yours.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 14, 2010)

MrA said:


> ... I still can't fathom why I called Lenin a cunt either.


Because you believe that Macca wrote the better songs?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 14, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> Because you believe that Macca wrote the better songs?


maybe a harrison fan


----------



## Zaskar (Jan 15, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> Mr A - you seem unable to see that it was precisely _your_ being in the wrong and the defensive justifications _you_ tried to introduce following on from that (that i'm BNP etc) that started everything off - that wasn't just some irrelevant side issue. You acted appallingly and opened the door for all the other shit - the people piggybacking on your posts with their own long standing agendas - agendas _you_ may not be able to spot but which longer standing members here are more than aware of (in brief you were manupilated by them).
> 
> You started off offering opinion on the possibility of Nick griffin being jailed, i responded sensibly and informatively. You then suggested that forcible repatriation is BNP policy, i told you - correctly as you say you now concede - that it is not. You then suggested _i might be BNP_ thereby poisoning any attempts at further discussion.
> 
> This is a situation of your own making and it genuinely beggars belief that you really are trying to blame it on anyone else. I even decided to just ignore all the shit and went back to responding to your posts in the orignal manner just to move the issue on, and instead of acting in like manner in order to achieve the same you re-appeared frothing at the mouth calling me (and others) _cunts_, _twats_ and _twisted bitches_ etc out of the blue.



You are a cunt.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 15, 2010)

‘Many a struggle of a sectional character will be necessary before the workers are able to resort to common action for the final overthrow of the wages system; education of the economically class conscious variety receives its best stimulus by means of a strike for better conditions...

*Those who determine simply to theorise and to argue interminably as to the most logical method get left high and dry by the workers movement which takes its own course*.”

 Tom Mann “The Path to Power” in “Solidarity” March 1914, emphasis added.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 15, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> A) the people piggybacking on your posts with their own long standing agendas - agendas _you_ may not be able to spot but which longer standing members here are more than aware of (in brief you were manupilated by them).
> 
> B) This is a situation of your own making and it genuinely beggars belief that you really are trying to blame it on anyone else.



A) In denial still Butch, you are 100% right and there ARE no problems with the form and content of what you write after all.  hahahaha. I said there were problems ages ago, several other INDEPENDENT people noticed it, and STILL you are in denial. 

Its not a fatal flaw in your politics, a small one, and i have already said how easily it can be improved. I/we manipulated no one - that is just a wierd conspiracy theory, it is also patronising to Mr A who has his own take on the world. If truth is told, your 'anti fascist in crowd', turned up in its usual bullying manner to try and assert hegemony again.

B) The evidence that you are in denial is in this quote, where you say it is Mr A's fault totally, that you (inc. collective you) played no part in the escalation. There can be no fault, ever, with your presentation. Oh No. Hahahaha

Get over it, it's not that serious as I said.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 15, 2010)

Zaskar said:


> You are a cunt.



And you, sir, are a filthy dog-felching grass. The only form of life as low as a scab.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 15, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> ‘Many a struggle of a sectional character will be necessary before the workers are able to resort to common action for the final overthrow of the wages system; education of the economically class conscious variety receives its best stimulus by means of a strike for better conditions...
> 
> *Those who determine simply to theorise and to argue interminably as to the most logical method get left high and dry by the workers movement which takes its own course*.”
> 
> Tom Mann “The Path to Power” in “Solidarity” March 1914, emphasis added.



So, are you attempting to claim that posters on this forum mostly "theorise and argue interminably" (except for yourself, of course. You're busy "giving history the meaning you see fit")? If so, that's a pisspoor attempt at denigration that relies far more on your assumptions than on any putative knowledge you have.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 15, 2010)

Zaskar said:


> You are a cunt.



you're worse, you're a tout


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 15, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> *Those who determine simply to theorise and to argue interminably as to the most logical method get left high and dry by the workers movement which takes its own course*.”


----------



## okgirl (Jan 15, 2010)

Citizen66 said:


> It's Melanie Phillips.



I take that as a compliment!


----------



## okgirl (Jan 15, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> Perhaps she'd recognise it by it's proper name, the _Führerprinzip_?



More rubbish!


----------



## okgirl (Jan 15, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> And you, sir, are a filthy dog-felching grass. The only form of life as low as a scab.



You are even lower than that


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 15, 2010)

okgirl said:


> More rubbish!



No, just an assumption that you're bright enough to understand basic German language.

Obviously my assumption was incorrect.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 15, 2010)

okgirl said:


> You are even lower than that



How's that then, am I one of those "race-traitors" you and your ilk fantasise about lynching, or is my being a Jew the problem for you, you fine example of Aryan womanhood? 

Or perhaps you're just stupid and are talking shit, in line with most of your contributions on this thread?


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jan 15, 2010)

MrA said:


> Which you haven't, look up the definition of a lie.
> 
> Since joining U75 all the far lefties have been every bit as bad as the far righties that I encounter on forums.
> 
> ...



E hem!


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jan 15, 2010)

Blagsta said:


> your debating skills leave a lot to be desired


But did ANYONE state butchers was a fascist?


----------



## audiotech (Jan 16, 2010)

Scuffles with demonstrators marked the official launch of BNP leader Nick Griffin's national election campaign.

More here.


----------



## trevhagl (Jan 16, 2010)

MC5 said:


> Scuffles with demonstrators marked the official launch of BNP leader Nick Griffin's national election campaign.
> 
> More here.



did ya see the comments section??? They must have a phone tree or something to man the internet barricades


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 16, 2010)

trevhagl said:


> did ya see the comments section??? They must have a phone tree or something to man the internet barricades



they do


----------



## trevhagl (Jan 16, 2010)

Pickman's model said:


> they do



ah right, cos every time ya see a story with a comment board it's swamped by em, not even Stoke has THAT many 'ordinary' dodge


----------



## Y_I_Otter (Jan 16, 2010)

"Operation Fightback" 

It's a technique used by right wingnuts the world over to make their numbers appear greater than they actually are and render online polls utterly useless for statistical purposes.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 17, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> So, are you attempting to claim that posters on this forum mostly "theorise and argue interminably" (except for yourself, of course. You're busy "giving history the meaning you see fit")? If so, that's a pisspoor attempt at denigration that relies far more on your assumptions than on any putative knowledge you have.



All your projection VP. Trying to _*guess*_ why I posted that is not only meaningless it is pointless.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 17, 2010)

Pickman's model said:


>



Whats the matter Picky? Touched a sore point has it?


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 17, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> A) This presupposes, though, that your definition of "old left/ultra-left" corresponds with historical actuality rather than mythology, and so far you've done little to convince that this is indeed the case.
> 
> B) In fact, isn't it one of your bug-bears that there's no unitary movement for you to lead convince into action with the force of your arguments
> 
> ...



A) That should read 'convince VP that this is indeed the case'.

B) No no , I have constantly argued for pluralism.

C) I look every now and again. I am not at all worried by the shite Butch et al post, its virtually all ultra left crap I like to add a different perspective as an alternative to the ultra left, see this page for the example;   http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=312188&page=6&highlight=soft+left+ultra

D) Again, trying to look for contradictions where there is none, is not useful here ie. leaving a political legacy is built out of political priorities, there is no contradiction. I certainly do not need nor want recognition from U75, I get my recognition elsewhere 

I do not think the 'my way or the highway' approach to anti fascism should remain unchallenged, cos its ultra left crap


----------



## LLETSA (Jan 17, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> No no , I have constantly argued for pluralism.





So much pluralism have we got that no workers' movement worthy of the name exists anymore.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 17, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> Whats the matter Picky? Touched a sore point has it?


no, it seems to be your m.o.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jan 17, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> A) That should read 'convince VP that this is indeed the case'.
> 
> B) No no , I have constantly argued for pluralism.
> 
> ...


Your right, but have no chance of challenging their arrogant elitist  'my way or the highway' approach to anti fascism this thread was partialy meant to delineate.  http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=295431


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jan 17, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> A) In denial still Butch, you are 100% right and there ARE no problems with the form and content of what you write after all.  hahahaha. I said there were problems ages ago, several other INDEPENDENT people noticed it, and STILL you are in denial.
> 
> Its not a fatal flaw in your politics, a small one, and i have already said how easily it can be improved. I/we manipulated no one - that is just a wierd conspiracy theory, it is also patronising to Mr A who has his own take on the world. If truth is told, your 'anti fascist in crowd', turned up in its usual bullying manner to try and assert hegemony again.
> 
> ...


with addled old brains, comes delusion.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 18, 2010)

Pickman's model said:


> no, it seems to be your m.o.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 18, 2010)

LLETSA said:


> So much pluralism have we got that no workers' movement worthy of the name exists anymore.



Pluralism did not cause it though. The working class movement has forgotten how to reproduce itself in a positive critical way. The way out of this is not old and sterile 'my way or the highway party forms', it is through pluralism, tolerance, class struggle and movement(s).


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 18, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> quick learner. so stop wasting your time, do what you think is most productive.
> 
> SAD!  *Any real anarchist know's, having a variety of approaches to the same problem, differences of opinion, is a good thing*.



I have to agree, intellectual prowess is not displayed by trying to create an homogenous approach, the 'real world' simply isn't like that.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 18, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> All your projection VP. Trying to _*guess*_ why I posted that is not only meaningless it is pointless.



My "guesses" are informed through your previous utterances on this site over several years and several identities, so it's hardly "projection".


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 18, 2010)

The39thStep said:


> I didn't think that anarchists were allowed to have one opinion.



Except the ultra left anarchists who seem to delight in obscurity.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 18, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> My "guesses" are informed through your previous utterances on this site over several years and several identities, so it's hardly "projection".



But you do not know and could never know the answer VP, that is why it is projection. Assuming things is fraught with difficulties, and imho impossibilities.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jan 18, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> I have to agree, intellectual prowess is not displayed by trying to create an homogenous approach, the 'real world' simply isn't like that.



I DONT mind people " trying to create an homogenous approach", as that is A approach.  What I believe is unacceptable, is butch, pick, vp etc then trying to destroy and villify different point's of view, that don't comply with what they demmand. Regularly the anarchists are eletist and arogant.

This IS NOT to say they can't critisise other approach's. That's fine.  But there has to come a point when you agree to fraternally agree to disagree.  This, they apear, not capable of.  

Hopefully in real life they are not as thick as they seem on here. Though my real life experience's of anarchist's are equally sectarian.


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 18, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> But you do not know and could never know the answer VP, that is why it is projection. Assuming things is fraught with difficulties, and imho impossibilities.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jan 18, 2010)

The39thStep said:


>


Butchers 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





With VP, Pick etc.


----------



## MrA (Jan 18, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> E hem!



You're not loony are you? 




ResistanceMP3 said:


> Your right, but have no chance of challenging their arrogant elitist  'my way or the highway' approach to anti fascism this thread was partialy meant to delineate.  http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=295431



A good thread, there seems to be a common theme regarding Butcher and VP, what is their problem?


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jan 18, 2010)

MrA said:


> You're not loony are you?


Yup. Paid up member.  So don't think this silly forum represents the left.  www.ResistanceMP3.org.uk


> A good thread, there seems to be a common theme regarding Butcher and VP, what is their problem?


In my experience, it's something perculiar to british anarchism, I've not been able to put my finger on, beyond noting their martyr complex and tendency to conspiracy theories.


----------



## audiotech (Jan 18, 2010)




----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 18, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> I DONT mind people " trying to create an homogenous approach", as that is A approach.  What I believe is unacceptable, is butch, pick, vp etc then trying to destroy and villify different point's of view, that don't comply with what they demmand. Regularly the anarchists are eletist and arogant.
> 
> This IS NOT to say they can't critisise other approach's. That's fine.  But there has to come a point when you agree to fraternally agree to disagree.  This, they apear, not capable of.
> 
> Hopefully in real life they are not as thick as they seem on here. Though my real life experience's of anarchist's are equally sectarian.


my experience of you is that you're a thick as pigshit know-nothing with the political nous of a backward gnat.


----------



## MrA (Jan 19, 2010)

Pickman's model said:


> my experience of you is that you're a thick as pigshit know-nothing with the political nous of a backward gnat.



Riiiiiiight on cue!


----------



## MrA (Jan 19, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> Yup. Paid up member.  So don't think this silly forum represents the left.



I don't, forums tend to be eclectic. It was aimed at VP and Butchers who appear to be vociferous in their approach to debating anti racism. IMO, for what it's worth to them, they'd be better served taking a more conciliatory approach, the only posts on the matter that I actually take note of are TBH,VP and yours.



ResistanceMP3 said:


> www.ResistanceMP3.org.uk In my experience, it's something perculiar to british anarchism, I've not been able to put my finger on, beyond noting their martyr complex and tendency to conspiracy theories.



*awaits teh inevitable*


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 19, 2010)

MrA said:


> On the one hand you state that the BNP do not have a racist or fascist manifesto and constitution, then in the next breath you say that it's obvious they do.


in words it would be hard to improve on...





MrA said:


> Please link to where I have done this, or as I suspect you're a fucking liar.


i'm getting a bit bored of your constant evasions so put up, or, as you promised you would if shown up as a liar, fuck off.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jan 19, 2010)

Pickman's model said:


> in words it would be hard to improve on...i'm getting a bit bored of your constant evasions so put up, or, as you promised you would if shown up as a liar, fuck off.


coming from a conspiracy theorist and proven liar, that post is the most amateur trolling.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jan 19, 2010)

MrA said:


> I don't, forums tend to be eclectic. It was aimed at VP and Butchers who appear to be vociferous in their approach to debating anti racism. IMO, for what it's worth to them, they'd be better served taking a more conciliatory approach, the only posts on the matter that I actually take note of are TBH,VP and yours.


Do you know that pink gay nazi character that Al Murray does, that is so over the top, it could never exist, well that reminds me of butchers.  No one can have such a Napoleon complex in real life.  (except pickman of course, but he is more yozzer hughes insane )





> *awaits teh inevitable*


 no chance, they haven't got the ball's, they know it's all true.


----------



## MrA (Jan 19, 2010)

Pickman's model said:


> in words it would be hard to improve on...i'm getting a bit bored of your constant evasions so put up, or, as you promised you would if shown up as a liar, fuck off.



Can you hear that?  It's the sound of the toilet flushing as your credibility disappears round the Ubend. 

And what is it I'm evading exactly? It all seems a bit cloak and dagger, you do realise this is a forum?


----------



## JimW (Jan 19, 2010)

MrA said:


> I don't, forums tend to be eclectic. It was aimed at VP and Butchers who appear to be vociferous in their approach to debating anti racism. IMO, for what it's worth to them, they'd be better served taking a more conciliatory approach, the only posts on the matter that I actually take note of are TBH,VP and yours...



Not sure why you think you and your particular predilections are the yardstick by which useful debate should be measured. You've had a ten page or whatever it is sulk now because someone's made a (correct) point about a topic apparently close to your heart that's rubbed you up the wrong way, and based on that you're constructing this frankly embarrassing narrative of right and wrong approaches that's in fact more of a defence of your own bruised ego, aided and abetted by various of the more incoherent users of these boards who have similar personality issues. Get over it, for fuck's sake.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 19, 2010)

MrA said:


> I don't, forums tend to be eclectic. It was aimed at VP and Butchers who appear to be vociferous in their approach to debating anti racism. IMO, for what it's worth to them, they'd be better served taking a more conciliatory approach, the only posts on the matter that I actually take note of are TBH,VP and yours.
> 
> *awaits teh inevitable*



I do find it strange that ideological purists have such a confrontational approach to people on their own side e.g. Mr A.  When AFAIK the anti fascist purists do not have such an *antagonistic attiude/practice* to the BNP. Certainly the 'softly softly' approach to the BNP now they are 'oh so democratic' according to some, is not replicated with a softly softly approach to *other *anti fascists. That is a contradiction.

Certainly I am unaware of antagonistic practice towards the BNP, and if such evidence should exist I would like to see it. 

And crap one liners like 'fek the BNP' do not count, I was talking about serious evidence and I am aware of the spat with Okgirl, but I was looking for rather more than one liners as I said, and by eg. Butch.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 19, 2010)

JimW said:


> Not sure why you think you and your particular predilections are the yardstick by which useful debate should be measured. You've had a ten page or whatever it is sulk now because someone's made a (correct) point about a topic apparently close to your heart that's rubbed you up the wrong way, and based on that you're constructing this frankly embarrassing narrative of right and wrong approaches that's in fact more of a defence of your own bruised ego, aided and abetted by various of the more incoherent users of these boards who have similar personality issues. Get over it, for fuck's sake.



Wot a load of shite. Your version of dry non committal anti fascism has been humiliated and you still are refusing to see that there are problems. The 'in crowd are always right, no matter what'. That is why you and your politics are fucked and will remain fucked cos you are not willing to engage with others. 

I told Butch and others already to 'get over it', you clearly haven't read it and are late on the scene. (goes to find post).

http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=10194990&postcount=572


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 19, 2010)

MrA said:


> Can you hear that?  It's the sound of the toilet flushing as your credibility disappears round the Ubend.
> 
> And what is it I'm evading exactly? It all seems a bit cloak and dagger, you do realise this is a forum?


i will keep this in short words as you seem unable to take in long ones. you said i said - in one post - that the bnp manifesto and constitution was and wasn't racist. i deny this and have asked you to point out the post where you saw this. you have so far been unable to do this, leading me to surmise that you are a 






			
				MrA said:
			
		

> fucking liar


perhaps you could link to the offending post, so that we can marvel at it. otherwise there could be no doubt that you are a 






			
				MrA said:
			
		

> fucking liar


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 19, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> coming from a conspiracy theorist and proven liar, that post is the most amateur trolling.


coming from someone who has been unable to say, when questioned, which conspiracy theory i am supposed to believe in, that's a bit rich. now, let's see you link to a lie i've told.


----------



## JimW (Jan 19, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> Wot a load of shite. Your version of dry non committal anti fascism has been humiliated and you still are refusing to see that there are problems. The 'in crowd are always right, no matter what'. That is why you and your politics are fucked and will remain fucked cos you are not willing to engage with others.
> 
> I told Butch and others already to 'get over it', you clearly haven't read it and are late on the scene. (goes to find post).
> 
> http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=10194990&postcount=572



If I need advice from a bourgeois academic I'll be sure to look you up, Dr.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 19, 2010)

JimW said:


> If I need advice from a bourgeois academic I'll be sure to look you up, Dr.



Guess what, you are wrong, again. I do have a Phd, but the 'bourgeois academic' bit is the false part of what you write. Though I can see why you would _like it_ to be true.


----------



## JimW (Jan 19, 2010)

Nah, I don't give a monkey's either way. Do find it a bit of a chuckle that you think you're the sole keeper of the flame of all that is working class. My experience has been that a bit of vigorous debate has been the bread and butter of working class politics all my life and far healthier than your various snide accusations and more useful than your long and rambling articles written in the mode of the bourgeois academy. I'm sure you're a cracking bloke beyond that though.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 19, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> Guess what, you are wrong, again. I do have a Phd, but the 'bourgeois academic' bit is the false part of what you write. Though I can see why you would _like it_ to be true.


will the next issue of 'capital and class' see you represented on the contents page?


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jan 19, 2010)

JimW said:


> Nah, I don't give a monkey's either way. Do find it a bit of a chuckle that you think you're the sole keeper of the flame of all that is working class. My experience has been that a bit of vigorous debate has been the bread and butter of working class politics all my life and far healthier than your various snide accusations and more useful than your long and rambling articles written in the mode of the bourgeois academy. I'm sure you're a cracking bloke beyond that though.


"debate"? On u75? Where?
Sectarian bun fights yes, but debate, ha!


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jan 19, 2010)

JimW said:


> Nah, I don't give a monkey's either way. Do find it a bit of a chuckle that you think you're the sole keeper of the flame of all that is working class. My experience has been that a bit of vigorous debate has been the bread and butter of working class politics all my life and far healthier than your various snide accusations and more useful than your long and rambling articles written in the mode of the bourgeois academy. I'm sure you're a cracking bloke beyond that though.


If you honestly think that, you haven't understood a word he has said.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jan 19, 2010)

Pickman's model said:


> coming from someone who has been unable to say, when questioned, which conspiracy theory i am supposed to believe in, that's a bit rich. now, let's see you link to a lie i've told.


Don't pretend you've forgot!


----------



## JimW (Jan 19, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> "debate"? On u75? Where?
> Sectarian bun fights yes, but debate, ha!





ResistanceMP3 said:


> If you honestly think that, you haven't understood a word he has said.



So that's an accusation of sectarianism from a lad whose contribution here as far as I can tell is spamming recordings of the various gurus of his Trot groupuscule. I'll trust my own reading comprehension skills over yours in the light of that, matey, thanks all the same.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jan 19, 2010)

JimW said:


> So that's an accusation of sectarianism from a lad whose contribution here as far as I can tell is spamming recordings of the various gurus of his Trot groupuscule. I'll trust my own reading comprehension skills over yours in the light of that, matey, thanks all the same.



Sectarianism is bigotry, discrimination or hatred arising from attaching importance to perceived differences between subdivisions within a group, such as between different denominations of a religion or the factions of a political movement. < fit's u75 anarchist's to a tee.

Me: spamer, maybe. partisan possibly. sectarian no, unless you include taking the piss.




Oh yes;





JimW said:


> Nah, I don't give a monkey's either way. Do find it a bit of a chuckle that you think you're the sole keeper of the flame of all that is working class. My experience has been that a bit of vigorous debate has been the bread and butter of working class politics all my life and far healthier than your various snide accusations and more useful than your long and rambling articles written in the mode of the bourgeois academy. I'm sure you're a cracking bloke beyond that though.


His point is exactly the opposite to what you think, he's critcising Butch for thinking he's "the sole keeper of the flame of all that is" anti-fascism.  As am I.  ie http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=295431


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 19, 2010)

MrA said:


> You're not loony are you?


Of course he isn't.





> A good thread, there seems to be a common theme regarding Butcher and VP, what is their problem?



My problem is with people who can't be arsed to look beyond the obvious when it comes to anti-fascism. I'm not impressed by rmp3's posting up of "resources" that turn out to be a series of links to stories and videos rather than hard data or hard analysis. 
You see, to me anti-fascism isn't about milling around in a group of trots shouting slogans, or about administering a kicking. It's about trying to understand (beyond facile party-political reasoning) why things happen, and how they can be dealt with or mitigated, politically and physically, not just by "the left", the "ultra left", the "autonomists" or the "anarchists", but by anyone and everyone.
This is why I find rmp3 trite, and attica/The Black Hand unengaging: They claim not to be partisan in any way, but they are, for their own interpretations of "what needs to be done". It's top-down when it should be bottom-up.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 19, 2010)

MrA said:


> I don't, forums tend to be eclectic. It was aimed at VP and Butchers who appear to be vociferous in their approach to debating anti racism.


Is vociferousness a crime all of a sudden? 
If it offends a few delicate sensibilities then I'm all for vociferousness. I've seen "official" anti-fascism/anti-racism  come to be dominated by mimsy Trots who talk and talk and talk, but never do anything beyond shouting slogans, regurgitating the "no platform" position and waving banners. They alienate more hearts and minds than they win, and have helped marginalise anti-racist/anti-fascist action as an acceptable political strategy.


> IMO, for what it's worth to them, they'd be better served taking a more conciliatory approach, the only posts on the matter that I actually take note of are TBH,VP and yours.


Frankly, conciliation be fucked. If someone talks shit about a subject you're better-informed than they about, do you just nod your head to keep the peace? I'm willing to bet you don't. You put them right. Now, you may do so diplomatically, or not so diplomatically, but what you *don't* do is let them carry on chatting shit, surely?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 19, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> Don't pretend you've forgot!



i'll take that as an admission you can't.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 19, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> Sectarianism is bigotry, discrimination or hatred arising from attaching importance to perceived differences between subdivisions within a group, such as between different denominations of a religion or the factions of a political movement. < fit's u75 anarchist's to a tee.


It might if anarchists were part of a unified "political movement", but we're not. Something you've been told *over and over and over again*, but which you appear unable to grasp.
Anarchists (and autonomists and left/social libertarians) are part of a broad philosophical spectrum, not adherents to the same creed or interpretations of a creed.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 19, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> It might if anarchists were part of a unified "political movement", but we're not. Something you've been told *over and over and over again*, but which you appear unable to grasp.
> Anarchists (and autonomists and left/social libertarians) are part of a broad philosophical spectrum, not adherents to the same creed or interpretations of a creed.



I think there is enough evidence to say that the different class struggle anarchist groups, and other associated ultra left groups, piss into the same pot. It is a political movement of a sort (that is not to say it is any good).

The bitching and emnities are huge (mainly/especially emanating from/in London), the political practice/nous is lacking, and the open political practice has been totally lacking though it is extremely slowly improving (but not on or by people on U75).


----------



## Knotted (Jan 19, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> It might if anarchists were part of a unified "political movement", but we're not. Something you've been told *over and over and over again*, but which you appear unable to grasp.
> Anarchists (and autonomists and left/social libertarians) are part of a broad philosophical spectrum, not adherents to the same creed or interpretations of a creed.



You've given his definition more substance than it has. It is extraordinary but nevertheless true that RMP3 has not associated sectarianism with any creed or interpretation of creed. He has not even defined it as factionalism. He is so astonishingly politically backward, that he actually thinks it is a form of hatred. As it happens it is perfectly coherent (if mistaken) to think that anarchism is a hateful but broad philosophical spectrum.

Your crime is to not make your political beliefs compatable with the most insipid liberalism - you might appear to be hateful to the most moronic liberals. The horror. This is a big crime for RMP3 and BlackHand - just think of all the cherished beliefs they've had to abandon in the name of expediency. You won't even abandon facts of the matter you know to be true. You haven't abandoned anything, you swine!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 19, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> I think there is enough evidence to say that the different class struggle anarchist groups, and other associated ultra left groups, piss into the same pot.


Enough evidence to satisfy whom. Forgive me for being abrupt, but you're hardly a neutral on this pint, are you, given your numerous fallings-out with so very many "anarchist groups"? 


> It is a political movement of a sort (that is not to say it is any good).


"Of a sort" could mean anything or nothing (probably the latter).


> The bitching and emnities are huge (mainly/especially emanating from/in London)...


I beg to differ. The main enmity is against you. 


> ...the political practice/nous is lacking, and the open political practice has been totally lacking though it is extremely slowly improving (but not on or by people on U75).


The problem with this analysis being that you have such a hard-on for your own ideas that you write off a lot of people because they disagree with you. One only has to look at the _contretemps_ your various identities on Urban have engaged in over the years to see that.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 19, 2010)

Knotted said:


> You've given his definition more substance than it has. It is extraordinary but nevertheless true that RMP3 has not associated sectarianism with any creed or interpretation of creed. He has not even defined it as factionalism. He is so astonishingly politically backward, that he actually thinks it is a form of hatred. As it happens it is perfectly coherent (if mistaken) to think that anarchism is a hateful but broad philosophical spectrum.
> 
> Your crime is to not make your political beliefs compatable with the most insipid liberalism -


Try as I might, I can't understand why anyone would want to. Politics is about getting things done, not about being an anodyne.


> ...you might appear to be hateful to the most moronic liberals.


I certainly hope so.


> The horror. This is a big crime for RMP3 and BlackHand - just think of all the cherished beliefs they've had to abandon in the name of expediency. You won't even abandon facts of the matter you know to be true. You haven't abandoned anything, you swine!


I can't bring myself to. Expediency is the enemy of *any* politics worthy of the name, not just of working-class politics. If not selling out makes me enemies, so what? They can join the queue to piss on my grave when I'm gone!


----------



## MrA (Jan 19, 2010)

*Typing error*


MrA said:


> A good thread, there seems to be a common theme regarding Butcher and PM, what is their problem?



Sorry VP meant to type PM. I actually find your exchanges with TBH informative.





ViolentPanda said:


> My problem is with people who can't be arsed to look beyond the obvious when it comes to anti-fascism. I'm not impressed by rmp3's posting up of "resources" that turn out to be a series of links to stories and videos rather than hard data or hard analysis.



Maybe he isn't attempting to impress, does it really take hard data and analysis? How many ordinary folk with only a passing interest in the BNP will be influenced by this approach? 

The BNP have made their gains by playing to peoples fears, portraying themselves as pro British as opposed to pro white and championing causes and issues of the working class. The BNP aren't trying to intellectualise their approach, that would just turn people off, but it seems that elements of the left don't have a consolidated approach. If Butchers and PM are indicative of the left then people like me are going to be put off by them.


----------



## Y_I_Otter (Jan 19, 2010)

If nothing else, this thread had brought home to me the fact that elements of the left are every bit as fractious and prone to petty internecine squabbles over ideological purity as the various elements of the right.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 19, 2010)

Y_I_Otter said:


> If nothing else, this thread had brought home to me the fact that elements of the left are every bit as fractious and prone to petty internecine squabbles over ideological purity as the various elements of the right.



This is news? That life of Brian parody was not based on nothing


----------



## MrA (Jan 19, 2010)

Y_I_Otter said:


> If nothing else, this thread had brought home to me the fact that elements of the left are every bit as fractious and prone to petty internecine squabbles over ideological purity as the various elements of the right.



No they're not....


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 19, 2010)

Y_I_Otter said:


> If nothing else, this thread had brought home to me the fact that elements of the left are every bit as fractious and prone to petty internecine squabbles over ideological purity as the various elements of the right.



Why? There's been no discussion of the lefts varied positions on the BNP. There's just been post after post of whining/hobby horsing/piggy backing etc 

Serious attempts to look at the BNP were drowned by the above.


----------



## Y_I_Otter (Jan 19, 2010)

MrA said:


> No they're not....



They fucking are, because I say so. Now prove they're not, or belt up!


----------



## MrA (Jan 19, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> Why? There's been no discussion of the lefts varied positions on the BNP. There's just been post after post of whining/hobby horsing/piggy backing etc
> 
> Serious attempts to look at the BNP were drowned by the above.



And you didn't play your part?  Let he who is without sin yaddah yaddah yaddah......


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 19, 2010)

Y_I_Otter said:


> They fucking are, because I say so. Now prove they're not, or belt up!



And we have another scarecrow. It's bizarre. Have you been so warped by your cosy own bnoard that other people talking about the BNP are seen as an affront to you? That disagreeing with your positions and telling you so are wrong in themselves and acts of rebellion?


----------



## MrA (Jan 19, 2010)

Y_I_Otter said:


> They fucking are, because I say so. Now prove they're not, or belt up!



I won't prove what I have already proved, without proof, earlier. Because you say so, has no bearing on the facts presented previously. So no.. YOU shut up, 

See you on MSF?


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 19, 2010)

MrA said:


> And you didn't play your part?  Let he who is without sin yaddah yaddah yaddah......



No i didn't. And nor did i keep whining day after day about it.


----------



## MrA (Jan 19, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> And we have another scarecrow. It's bizarre. Have you been so warped by your cosy own bnoard that other people talking about the BNP are seen as an affront to you? That disagreeing with your positions and telling you so are wrong in themselves and acts of rebellion?



He was joking ffs...


----------



## MrA (Jan 19, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> No i didn't. And nor did i keep whining day after day about it.



Well it must be tough being so high and mighty eh?  Are you restricted to internet forums or do you actually do anything proactive? In fact don't answer.


----------



## newbie (Jan 19, 2010)

Y_I_Otter said:


> If nothing else, this thread had brought home to me the fact that elements of the left are every bit as fractious and prone to petty internecine squabbles over ideological purity as the various elements of the right.



ideological whatnow?  you're kidding, of course.  The new kid has had his nose put out of joint and keeps squawking so no-one forgets, and everybody else is playing the same part they've been honing to perfection for 5 years or more.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 19, 2010)

They're honed for a reason though to be fair. (And i have just left this alone since the day after the original blow up - it's ridiculous)


----------



## Y_I_Otter (Jan 19, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> And we have another scarecrow. It's bizarre. Have you been so warped by your cosy own bnoard that other people talking about the BNP are seen as an affront to you? That disagreeing with your positions and telling you so are wrong in themselves and acts of rebellion?



No, I just don't see why differing approaches to tackling a problem need to be in opposition, necessarily.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 19, 2010)

MrA said:


> He was joking ffs...



Indeed, so deep in the mire that he can't come up for air.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 19, 2010)

Y_I_Otter said:


> No, I just don't see why differing approaches to tackling a problem need to be in opposition, necessarily.



And where have these differing approaches even been discussed on this thread? They haven't been. It never once went near that discussion.


----------



## Y_I_Otter (Jan 19, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> And where have these differing approaches even been discussed on this thread? They haven't been. It never once went near that discussion.



Maybe that's where the discussion ought to go then, because all I'm seeing is people with a common enemy jousting with one another over, well, nothing really.

In a nutshell, what are the major shortcomings of current anti-fascist efforts and what should they be replaced with?


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 19, 2010)

Knotted said:


> Your crime is to not make your political beliefs compatable with the most insipid liberalism - you might appear to be hateful to the most moronic liberals. The horror. This is a big crime for RMP3 and BlackHand - just think of all the cherished beliefs they've had to abandon in the name of expediency. You won't even abandon facts of the matter you know to be true. You haven't abandoned anything, you swine!



Bullshit backslapping is pathetic. I and probably we have abandoned nothing, we just don't fall for simplistic ultra left shite.

Butch has done nothing intellectually challenging, virtually jack shit. As I said, repeating what the BNP say ad infinitum is not useful.

All there is pathetic and second hand, derived shite about 'how good the bnp are and how well they are doing'. There is nothing radical, new or original in the formulation.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 19, 2010)

Y_I_Otter said:


> Maybe that's where the discussion ought to go then, because all I'm seeing is people with a common enemy jousting with one another over, well, nothing really.
> 
> In a nutshell, what are the major shortcomings of current anti-fascist efforts and what should they be replaced with?



You mean something like this


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 19, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> You mean something like this


you couldn't put the argument in that article in words of one syllable for MrA and his little echo?


----------



## Knotted (Jan 19, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> Bullshit backslapping is pathetic. I and probably we have abandoned nothing, we just don't fall for simplistic ultra left shite.



Don't tell me, ultra leftism is a form of hatred?

I mean come on. Doesn't RMP3's formulation make you want to vomit? Violently.




			
				The Black Hand said:
			
		

> Butch has done nothing intellectually challenging, virtually jack shit. As I said, repeating what the BNP say ad infinitum is not useful.
> 
> All there is pathetic and second hand, derived shite about 'how good the bnp are and how well they are doing'. There is nothing radical, new or original in the formulation.



This says so much about you and what motivates you. I'm not going to be paying you much attention, I'm afraid, even if you are very intellectually challenging.


----------



## Knotted (Jan 19, 2010)

If you're really not giving up any cherished beliefs, then why do you keep going on and on about ultra leftism and purity? And in the most random fashion. You're clearly not trying to convince anybody of anything because you don't make any sense. You're trying to convince yourself.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 19, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> A) Enough evidence to satisfy whom. Forgive me for being abrupt, but you're hardly a neutral on this pint, are you, given your numerous fallings-out with so very many "anarchist groups"?
> 
> B) "Of a sort" could mean anything or nothing (probably the latter).
> 
> ...



A) Neutral? I didn't realise it mattered, I was passing comment on the scene. Have you never been to the Anarchist Bookfair and associated socials? There certainly is evidence there. I would be flattered if the Anarchist groups took the threat from me so seriously that they had a position upon me I do not think that is true VP. 

B) I qualified that statement with a comment on its ability.

C) If I am really the Anti hero of the anarchist movement for doing so little then it can only be symptomatic of this major flaw - that what there is, is pathetic, that they do nothing that matters, and that they have no alliances and experience with the wider world.

BTW you may also then know so very little then, the leader of the AF and founder of CW do not speak to each other, and there are many many other disputes too.

D) If people want to attack critical thinking beyond ultra left anarchist forms that I have expressed then that is their problem, I defend myself The anarchists refuse to confront critical and in places imho fatal flaws in their political thought and practice, and that is what 20 years plus experience in the anarchist movement has taught me. 

How many times must I say there is a desperate need for pluralism? It is true that the ultra left forms of anarchism I am less tolerant of than I used to be but that is not to say that I do not engage with them. If one truth is told, sadly, the anarchists fetishise themselves.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 19, 2010)

Knotted said:


> A) If you're really not giving up any cherished beliefs, then why do you keep going on and on about ultra leftism and purity?
> 
> B) And in the most random fashion. You're clearly not trying to convince anybody of anything because you don't make any sense.
> 
> C) You're trying to convince yourself.



A) Ultra leftism spoils for a *small fight *cos there is no alliance. I spoil for a bigger fight that Alliances could deliver

B) I say it where I see fit, it makes sense from my standpoint, I do not expect everyone to fall into line

C). No. I came to these beliefs through a moment of epiphany, but observations before and after have shown me the value of the approach. It did begin something like, 'it's not is it'. i can see that that those deeply immersed in such things may not have the critical faculties left, or indeed want to see, and like the 3 wise monkeys are not want to open their eyes.


----------



## Knotted (Jan 19, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> A) Ultra leftism spoils for a *small fight *cos there is no alliance. I spoil for a bigger fight that Alliances could deliver



That's sectarianism not ultra leftism. Two very different things.




			
				The Black Hand said:
			
		

> B) I say it where I see fit, it makes sense from my standpoint, I do not expect everyone to fall into line



Do you expect anyone to fall into line?




			
				The Black Hand said:
			
		

> C). No. I came to these beliefs through a moment of epiphany, but observations before and after have shown me the value of the approach. It did begin something like, 'it's not is it'. i can see that that those deeply immersed in such things may not have the critical faculties left, or indeed want to see, and like the 3 wise monkeys are not want to open their eyes.



You shouldn't be afraid to learn from others. It's not plagiarism to repeat someone else's analysis. Ignore your sense of epiphany.


----------



## Y_I_Otter (Jan 19, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> You mean something like this



Thanks for that article. Turns out I scanned it a little while back and made a desktop link of it but never got around to reading it in detail. It has the subtext of being a bit of an anti-Labour tract (for which I don't blame it), but it does make some sense.  There are one or two things, though...



> 1 Community unions
> 
> [...]
> 
> Parties are too narrow to play this role under today’s conditions – they exist on a different level – but there is no reason why they cannot play a role within these broader open groups.



It would be naiive in the extreme to believe such a union could exist without representatives of various parties vying for control of it. 



> 2 Focus on policy
> We should develop the ‘expose them’ model into one that, instead of revealing ineffective details about individuals, concentrates on why their polices will not deal with the social problems driving people into their arms. If we cannot make this clear to those already intensely concerned with these issues then our propaganda is failing and is at best talking to those who would never vote BNP anyway. This will require a direct challenge to Searchlight/UAF and other mainstream anti-fascists as they continue to empty their publications of all but the most inane type of content criticised above. This, of course, needs to be linked to the activity of the ‘community union’ type groups mentioned above.



I think going after the patent impossibility of some of the BNP's policies being implemented is a very good tactic; one that certainly bears expanding. What I don't buy is the 'instead of' bit. Despite what's been said about its supposed ineffectuality earlier in the article, there isn't any reason it can't be 'in addition to'. I don't believe that the Searchlight/UAF approach needs to be jettisoned altogether because all that naming and shaming hasn't been completely in vain. I believe it's one of several factors that's forced the BNP to water their policies down to the point that, save for their lingering racial emphasis, they're hardly distinguisable from any other conservative populist movement. What needs to be made most of-- and here, the orginisations being slagged in this article excell-- is the disconnect between the party's official policies and the statements and actions of so many of its members at large. Examples of blatant hypocrisy by people whose aim it is to make decisions for their fellow citizens is always newsworthy and news of it does influence the vote. 



> 3 Abandon Labour
> Searchlight need to abandon their default pro-Labour position and use their existing networks and resources to get behind local campaigns, actively challenging the conditions that are breeding support for the far right. (This seems unlikely to happen.)



Where does the bulk of their operating capital come from? I don't actually know, so fill me in, if you can. I suspect it's about funding: 'dancing with the one wot brung ya' and not biting the hand that feeds you. I'd rather see Searchlight out there doing what they do than being reduced to doing nothing at all for want of funds.



> 4 End the marches
> Stop the marches, labelling, shouting, and so on. Marching into an area that you do not know and have no continuing interest in and shouting what’s right for that area is alienating and counter-productive. *People do not like being told what’s best for them and will kick back against or simply ignore this sort of activity.*



Quick, get that message off to the EDL at once. They can spend all the money they'll save on trainfare on ale. 

It seems as though the author of the article is of the mind that letting a couple of hundred or so assorted football hooligans, super-annuated skins, neo-nazis and Stormfront UK types have their racist day in the sun, on a junket to a British town center, absolutely unopposed, is okay. I can't see how that's productive. 

Incidently, I've never thought much of the 'no platform' approach mentioned in the Red Pepper article. If there's one thing the BNP can be counted on, it's that, apart from a few of their better orators, their candidates will deliver own goals aplenty if they're given the opportunity to debate in public against better informed and more politically savvy opponants. Their talent pool is quite small and that's a weakness could be better taken advantage of than it is.



Pickman's model said:


> you couldn't put the argument in that article in words of one syllable for MrA and his little echo?



Oh, please do that if you have the time. I promise to return the favour if you ever have use of an overview of Canadian far-right movements and their opposition even an idiot could understand.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 19, 2010)

Y_I_Otter said:


> I promise to return the favour if you ever have use of an overview of Canadian far-right movements and their opposition* even an idiot could understand.*


when i find one you could comprehend i'll let you know.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 19, 2010)

Y_I_Otter said:


> Thanks for that article. Turns out I scanned it a little while back and made a desktop link of it but never got around to reading it in detail. It has the subtext of being a bit of an anti-Labour tract (for which I don't blame it), but it does make some sense.  There are one or two things, though...
> 
> It would be naiive in the extreme to believe such a union could exist without representatives of various parties vying for control of it.



Of course - who though otherwise. But as start up capital for local groups who else it left? There's many an example of union supported groups spinning of an pursuing other interests.



> I think going after the patent impossibility of some of the BNP's policies being implemented is a very good tactic; one that certainly bears expanding. What I don't buy is the 'instead of' bit. Despite what's been said about its supposed ineffectuality earlier in the article, there isn't any reason it can't be 'in addition to'. I don't believe that the Searchlight/UAF approach needs to be jettisoned altogether because all that naming and shaming hasn't been completely in vain. I believe it's one of several factors that's forced the BNP to water their policies down to the point that, save for their lingering racial emphasis, they're hardly distinguisable from any other conservative populist movement. What needs to be made most of-- and here, the orginisations being slagged in this article excell-- is the disconnect between the party's official policies and the statements and actions of so many of its members at large. Examples of blatant hypocrisy by people whose aim it is to make decisions for their fellow citizens is always newsworthy and news of it does influence the vote.



The whole point of the article is that the old approaches have failed. Nailing them to the back of the new approaches won't work. They haven't succeeded in anything at all - the watering down hasn't come from pressure from anti-fascists - it's came from common sense. Your response fucks up here.




> Where does the bulk of their operating capital come from? I don't actually know, so fill me in, if you can. I suspect it's about funding: 'dancing with the one wot brung ya' and not biting the hand that feeds you. I'd rather see Searchlight out there doing what they do than being reduced to doing nothing at all for want of funds.



This is just the old Russian gold stuff in a mirror. It's meaningless. Where their money comes from is not the question and hasn't been for many years.



> Quick, get that message off to the EDL at once. They can spend all the money they'll save on trainfare on ale.
> 
> It seems as though the author of the article is of the mind that letting a couple of hundred or so assorted football hooligans, super-annuated skins, neo-nazis and Stormfront UK types have their racist day in the sun, on a junket to a British town center, absolutely unopposed, is okay. I can't see how that's productive.



Why, what in that article gave you that impression?

What country are you in y i otter?


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 20, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> A) The whole point of the article is that the old approaches have failed. Nailing them to the back of the old approaches won't work. They haven't succeeded in anything at all - the watering down hasn't come from pressure from anti-fascists - it's came from common sense. Your response fucks up here.
> 
> _It seems as though the author of the article is of the mind that letting a couple of hundred or so assorted football hooligans, super-annuated skins, neo-nazis and Stormfront UK types have their racist day in the sun, on a junket to a British town center, absolutely unopposed, is okay. I can't see how that's productive. _
> 
> B) Why, what in that article gave you that impression?



A) This issue has been tackled here, without evidence that traditional anti fascism is failing it is just assertion, an academic exercise. The reasoning behind this is that it is not enough to assert that Searchlight et al obviously are failing, as the situation could be far worse without them;
http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=10048743&postcount=44

B) The fetishisation of the BNP as respectable and street confrontation/activity is not the answer could easily lead to such a pov.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 20, 2010)

Knotted said:


> A) That's sectarianism not ultra leftism. Two very different things.
> 
> B) Do you expect anyone to fall into line?
> 
> C) You shouldn't be afraid to learn from others. It's not plagiarism to repeat someone else's analysis. Ignore your sense of epiphany.



A) Sectarianism and ultra leftism are 2 very different things, that is true. Traditional Leftist parties have been and can be sectarian. Where they overlap is that ultra leftists are de facto sectarian and pure, that is the nature of ultra left politics. Show me alliances beyond class struggle anarchism, beyond ultra leftism? They do not exist.

B) I do not view politics like that.

C) I am not afraid of learning from others, I have done and will do it frequently. What I am deeply unhappy with is the formulation encouraged By Larry O'Hara/ Butchers that takes what the BNP says as worth repeating without critique. I do not agree with that 'all powerful' BNP policy and practice line because it does not accord with reality.


----------



## MrA (Jan 20, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> No i didn't. And nor did i keep whining day after day about it.



Is it any wonder why newcomers like me doubt your motives and are confused by the impression you leave regarding your views on the BNP when a little digging produces  http://   www.   storm  front        .org/   forum/showpost.php?p=2753139&postcount=2    this from Stormfront.

It's clear that you are anto BNP, but you do disguise it. Maybe you should have linked your resources which would have been much more informative and helpful then goading me into a bun fight.

(*editor: link removed)


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 20, 2010)

MrA said:


> Is it any wonder why newcomers like me doubt your motives and are confused by the impression you leave regarding your views on the BNP when a little digging produces ht tp://w ww.stormfront.org /forum/showp ost.php ?p= 275313 9&postcount=2from Stormfront.
> 
> It's clear that you are anto BNP, but you do disguise it. Maybe you should have linked your resources which would have been much more informative and helpful then goading me into a bun fight.


are you utterly fuckwitted? have you bothered reading the forum rules (and i note you claim to be a mod elsewhere)?


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 20, 2010)

MrA said:


> Is it any wonder why newcomers like me doubt your motives and are confused by the impression you leave regarding your views on the BNP when a little digging produces ht tp://www.storm front.org/forum/sho wpost.php?p=2753139&po stcount=2 from Stormfront.
> 
> It's clear that you are anto BNP, but you do disguise it. Maybe you should have linked your resources which would have been much more informative and helpful then goading me into a bun fight.



A little digging by you produces a post on stormfront by a fascist about Larry O' hara? You what?

No one is confused but you. Stop whining for the love of God. Please, just move on.

edit: and do yourself a favour -stop obsessing over stormfront. It's irrelevant.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Jan 20, 2010)

MrA said:


> Is it any wonder why newcomers like me doubt your motives and are confused by the impression you leave regarding your views on the BNP when a little digging produces htt p://w ww.storm front.org/forum/ showpost.php?p=2753139 &postcount=2 from Stormfront.



What do you think the post on Stormfront shows?

Louis MacNeice


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 20, 2010)

MrA said:


> Is it any wonder why newcomers like me doubt your motives and are confused by the impression you leave regarding your views on the BNP when a little digging produces  thisfrom Stormfront.
> 
> It's clear that you are anto BNP, but you do disguise it. Maybe you should have linked your resources which would have been much more informative and helpful then goading me into a bun fight.


fyi:






			
				Forum Rules said:
			
		

> 4. Trolling/direct linking. Do not directly link to 'hostile' websites (leave gaps in the URL if you wish to refer to them). Anyone found posting up malicious links on other sites and/or trying to stir up 'board wars' will be banned.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 20, 2010)

MrA said:


> Maybe you should have linked your resources which would have been much more informative and helpful then goading me into a bun fight.


it's interesting to see you're not fussed about being goaded into a 'bun fight', you just want butchers to do it after linking to resources.

in either case it looks to me like you're less interested in the debate you claim to want than being disruptive


----------



## MrA (Jan 20, 2010)

Louis MacNeice said:


> What do you think the post on Stormfront shows?
> 
> Louis MacNeice



That misinterpretation of a persons motives is easily made unless clarification is given.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Jan 20, 2010)

MrA said:


> That misinterpretation of a persons motives is easily made unless clarification is given.



However, the stormfromt poster is not misinterpreting O'Hara's motives ('he [O'Hara] is an "anti-fascist" and certainly doesn't support our ideas'); rather they are seeking to use O'Hara's work for their own purposes. The misinterpretation of motives was your's earlier in this thread; it's a misinterpretation that would personally hack me off, so I can understand others reacting sharply to it.

Louis MacNeice


----------



## MrA (Jan 20, 2010)

Louis MacNeice said:


> However, the stormfromt poster is not misinterpreting O'Hara's motives ('he [O'Hara] is an "anti-fascist" and certainly doesn't support our ideas'); rather they are seeking to use O'Hara's work for their own purposes. The misinterpretation of motives was your's earlier in this thread; it's a misinterpretation that would personally hack me off, so I can understand others reacting sharply to it.
> 
> Louis MacNeice



Read the whole thread up to the point where I realised there was a misrepresentation by me and why I made an arse of myself . Things aren't always one sided.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 20, 2010)

MrA said:


> *Typing error*
> 
> 
> Sorry VP meant to type PM. I actually find your exchanges with TBH informative.
> ...


You mean influenced by fact rather than tabloid myth and Chinese whispers? I don't know, but I've always found that being armed with fact to counter the bullshit pays dividends.


> The BNP have made their gains by playing to peoples fears, portraying themselves as pro British as opposed to pro white and championing causes and issues of the working class.


I don't agree. 
The BNP have made their gains first and foremost by altering the basis on which they operate. They've removed the vast majority of their "political soldier"-types from the party. They've shifted from a classic "seizure of power" strategy to an electoral one. They've also shifted their rhetoric away from neo-fascist *toward* "democratic new right" lines. All of this is what has made their electoral gains possible. Measure their (thankfully limited so far) success any way you wish, but the "new" BNP has made itself a party that "ordinary people" are willing to vote for *because* the above strategies have put them in "the right place at the right time", *not* because there's been a relatively recent surge in the number of points of tension between communities. Those have always been there, and have arguably been far worse in the 80s and 90s than they are now.


> The BNP aren't trying to intellectualise their approach, that would just turn people off...


I suspect that what you mean is they don't try to sell their intellectualisation to the voting public, because it's certainly the case that they've "updated" a lot of the ideological and philosophical premises of their position. In fact they've been doing so even pre-Griffin. Some of us even used to have bets back before the internet was common currency on how often the latest BNP newsletter would mention certain European "new right" philosophers. 


> ...but it seems that elements of the left don't have a consolidated approach.


I'd (and this is my opinion, based on 30 years of observation, rather than academic enquiry) say that there's a few reasons for there being little cohesion between different parts of the left, the first being that "the left" is pretty much an inaccurate (but handy) label that covers everyone from vanguardists to Christian Socialists, the second being that in terms of organised "left" groupings, there's deep suspicion about the lust for control displayed by one particular organisation which has done more to destroy cohesion on "the left" than anything since Kinnock's attempt to play the tough guy at the '85 Labour conference.


> If Butchers and PM are indicative of the left then people like me are going to be put off by them.


Why?


----------



## MrA (Jan 20, 2010)

Pickman's model said:


> it's interesting to see you're not fussed about being goaded into a 'bun fight', you just want butchers to do it after linking to resources.
> 
> in either case it looks to me like you're less interested in the debate you claim to want than being disruptive




Pot and kettle spring to mind. I've held my hands up, just wish you could do the same.

I, like many others in real life, don't thoerise, intellectualise or analyse in infinitesimal detail anti fascism or the many facets of left wing ideology. To most people it isn't a priority and has no baring on their thoughts or motivations. Do you think a BNP waiverer is going to listen to the differing leftist postions and who or what ideology is relevent, right or accurate? Of course not. Nick Griffin knows this already and he takes every opportunity to talk about, job creation, immigration and community programs.
This strikes a cord with people who given that they don't see themselves as racist do not truly believe that the BNP are a racist party any longer. But you can keep telling yourself that's not the case and stick to your own persepctive.

When this thread kicked off it _was_ because _I_was wrong, looking back I made a bit of a numpty of myself. But you and butch wouldn't let it go and as much whinning that I've done, you've done your level best to stoke it up and then plead victim. If it was just me then I can accept the critisism but there's example after example of both of you doing this over and over again on this topic and others.

You're both vague as fuck, if you'd made your positions clear when I asked for it then I would have acquiesced alot sooner. If it wasn;t for VP I'd still be defending an impossible position now, all because I thought you were supporting BNP stances.

Anyway, I've apologised enough and it isn't good enough. Your problem not mine.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 20, 2010)

Y_I_Otter said:


> If nothing else, this thread had brought home to me the fact that elements of the left are every bit as fractious and prone to petty internecine squabbles over ideological purity as the various elements of the right.


Shame on you for not being aware of that already!


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 20, 2010)

MrA said:


> Pot and kettle spring to mind. I've held my hands up, just wish you could do the same.
> 
> I, like many others in real life, don't thoerise, intellectualise or analyse in infinitesimal detail anti fascism or the many facets of left wing ideology. To most people it isn't a priority and has no baring on their thoughts or motivations. Do you think a BNP waiverer is going to listen to the differing leftist postions and who or what ideology is relevent, right or accurate? Of course not. Nick Griffin knows this already and he takes every opportunity to talk about, job creation, immigration and community programs.
> This strikes a cord with people who given that they don't see themselves as racist do not truly believe that the BNP are a racist party any longer. But you can keep telling yourself that's not the case and stick to your own persepctive.
> ...



Madness, i let it go the very next day. It's not me that's kept this going. I've barely posted on this thread since you 'made a numpty of yourself'. It's rmp3, and TBH that have jumped on this and you allowed them to. _Break the power of the manipulators_ and move the fuck on.

edit: and i still don't get what that link to a fascist talking about Larry O' hara is supposed to mean in relation to me. I'm not Larry O' Hara if that's what you think.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Jan 20, 2010)

MrA said:


> Read the whole thread up to the point where I realised there was a misrepresentation by me and why I made an arse of myself . Things aren't always one sided.



I have read the whole thread. Firstly, I was pointing out that the post on stormfront didn't do what you said it did; i.e. it didn't highlight the ease of misinterpretation. Secondly, I was trying, albeit rather gently, to get you to place yourself in BA's shoes; how would the accusation of being a BNP fellow traveller, for want of a better phrase, make you feel?

Louis MacNeice


----------



## MrA (Jan 20, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> I don't agree.
> The BNP have made their gains first and foremost by altering the basis on which they operate. They've removed the vast majority of their "political soldier"-types from the party. They've shifted from a classic "seizure of power" strategy to an electoral one. They've also shifted their rhetoric away from neo-fascist *toward* "democratic new right" lines. All of this is what has made their electoral gains possible. Measure their (thankfully limited so far) success any way you wish, but the "new" BNP has made itself a party that "ordinary people" are willing to vote for *because* the above strategies have put them in "the right place at the right time", *not* because there's been a relatively recent surge in the number of points of tension between communities. Those have always been there, and have arguably been far worse in the 80s and 90s than they are now.



I don't believe I have said anything different, well, between whinning and pissing about with PM. 
As you stated, as  soon as the BNP changed their strategy, we can disagree on the detail of exactly what it is or means, and I don't have the benefit of 30years of being close to the subject, the left don't appear to have changed their strategy. I would have thought it would be better to have a consolodated approach where resources, expertise and drive could be utilsed to thier maximum potential.





> I'd (and this is my opinion, based on 30 years of observation, rather than academic enquiry) say that there's a few reasons for there being little cohesion between different parts of the left, the first being that "the left" is pretty much an inaccurate (but handy) label that covers everyone from vanguardists to Christian Socialists, the second being that in terms of organised "left" groupings, there's deep suspicion about the lust for control displayed by one particular organisation which has done more to destroy cohesion on "the left" than anything since Kinnock's attempt to play the tough guy at the '85 Labour conference.



From the exchanges I've read between you and TBH which have been, amusing, informative and civil, in the main, so I can't see why any differences can't be overcome, you're both on the same side of the river so to speak, but crossing on different bridges. 




> Why?


I don't want to go there anymore.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 20, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> Bullshit backslapping is pathetic. I and probably we have abandoned nothing, we just don't fall for simplistic ultra left shite.


Or at least for stuff that you classify as "simplistic ultra-left shite" because you're too lazy to articulate yourself (despite your many references to your own intellectual acuity and perspicacity).


> Butch has done nothing intellectually challenging, virtually jack shit. As I said, repeating what the BNP say ad infinitum is not useful.


 See what I mean about "many references to your own intellectual acuity and perspicacity"? 


> All there is pathetic and second hand, derived shite about 'how good the bnp are and how well they are doing'. There is nothing radical, new or original in the formulation.


Because "New anti-fascism, new praxis" is the sort of slogan you envision, I suspect.
Anything that you can't control, you're not interested in.
It becomes increasingly obvious, as some would claim it has for years (but of course, they're all "simplistic ultra-lefts", aren't they?) that for you this may not be *primarily* about anti-fascism, about class struggle politics or event about politics at all, anymore, but about you, power and your attempt at immortality.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 20, 2010)

Knotted said:


> This says so much about you and what motivates you. I'm not going to be paying you much attention, I'm afraid, even if you are very intellectually challenging.



*Neu anti-fascismus! Neu Praxis!*


----------



## MrA (Jan 20, 2010)

Louis MacNeice said:


> I have read the whole thread. Firstly, I was pointing out that the post on stormfront didn't do what you said it did; i.e. it didn't highlight the ease of misinterpretation. Secondly, I was trying, albeit rather gently, to get you to place yourself in BA's shoes; how would the accusation of being a BNP fellow traveller, for want of a better phrase, make you feel?
> 
> Louis MacNeice



OK I accept what you are saying,  I did allude to Butch being sympathetic to the BNP early in the thread only because at the time I thought he was being vague and obtuse and when I asked him for clarification he wouldn't give it, like I said I did subsuquently apologise due to VP's intervention. 
I believe it was an easy mistake to make as a newcomer, if a stormfronter can misinterpret his actions a newbie certainly could also.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 20, 2010)

MrA said:


> OK I accept what you are saying,  I did allude to Butch being sympathetic to the BNP early in the thread only because at the time I thought he was being vague and obtuse and when I asked him for clarification he wouldn't give it, like I said I did subsuquently apologise due to VP's intervention.
> I believe it was an easy mistake to make as a newcomer, if a stormfronter can misinterpret his actions a newbie certainly could also.



I'm not Larry O' Hara. And as Louis pointed out, the stormfronter didn't misinterpret anything.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 20, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> I'm not Larry O' Hara.



Not abrasive enough, for a start. You're a fackin' lightweight when it comes to abrasiveness!!


----------



## Davo1 (Jan 20, 2010)

One of the only good things about this website is the debates on antifascism and the IWCA etc. Only reason I log in, and the reason I came here in the first place.

Keep it up innit!


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jan 20, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> Madness, i let it go the very next day. It's not me that's kept this going. I've barely posted on this thread since you 'made a numpty of yourself'. It's rmp3, and TBH that have jumped on this and you allowed them to. _Break the power of the manipulators_ and move the fuck on.


Napolean, do you actual realise what a control freek you are?
http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=295431

Just chill out.  Smoke a spliff.  This shit, U75, is not fucking serious.


----------



## JimW (Jan 20, 2010)

Davo1 said:


> One of the only good things about this website is the debates on antifascism and the IWCA etc. Only reason I log in, and the reason I came here in the first place.
> 
> Keep it up innit!



Voice of reason!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 20, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> Napolean, do you actual realise what a control freek you are?
> http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=295431
> 
> Just chill out.  Smoke a spliff.  This shit, U75, is not fucking serious.



Oh the inimitable fucking irony of this post!!


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 20, 2010)

y i otter, the BNP are quite frankly in no danger of taking power in the UK, that is the least of our problems. You have a lot of really intelligent stuff to say but to be honest some of your recent posts on the topic demonstrate (to me anyway) that you have a lot to learn about the political situation there. 

i don't claim to be an expert but I think that old style goose stepping fascism and the risk of the BNP "gaining power" is the least of the worries when it comes to extreme right wing politics in the UK.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 20, 2010)

frogwoman said:


> y i otter, the BNP are quite frankly in no danger of taking power in the UK, that is the least of our problems. You have a lot of really intelligent stuff to say but to be honest some of your recent posts on the topic demonstrate (to me anyway) that you have a lot to learn about the political situation there.
> 
> i don't claim to be an expert but I think that old style goose stepping fascism and the risk of the BNP "gaining power" is the least of the worries when it comes to extreme right wing politics in the UK.



As myself and others (including you, I believe ) have said repeatedly, it's not the BNP gaining power that's what should concern us in the short to middle-term, it's the fact that even a marginally electorally-acceptable BNP not only helps legitimate a hard-right politics constructed around the ytopes about immigration and jobs, but that it allows the mainstream parties to shift their policies rightward if they feel that rightward is where the votes lie. It has happened before, and it can happen again.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 20, 2010)

Yep, and this is actually happening now. As opposed to a hysterical fantasy of griffin as PM.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 20, 2010)

See the QT where Griffin was the most left wing voice on immigration


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 20, 2010)

The problem is that what a lot of the mainstream parties and media come out with these days on the subject of immigration etc not only falls into a convenient discourse which doesn't in any way examine the issues involved in depth, but also is very similar in its way to what the bnp are coming out with. In fact if anything as butchers said some of the positions of the bnp might even be *less* extreme.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 20, 2010)

frogwoman said:


> The problem is that what a lot of the mainstream parties and media come out with these days on the subject of immigration etc not only falls into a convenient discourse which doesn't in any way examine the issues involved in depth, but also is very similar in its way to what the bnp are coming out with. In fact if anything as butchers said some of the positions of the bnp might even be *less* extreme.



All of which further serves to appear to legitimate them politically and bring them closer to getting a toe-hold not only in *national* (rather than local or regional) politics, but in the voting intentions of the so-called  "respectable" electorate rather than with their old fringe of deep-fried Hitler-idolising racist misanthropes.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 20, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> It's rmp3, and TBH that have jumped on this and you allowed them to. _Break the power of the manipulators_ and move the fuck on.



Pure comedy gold, Butch and his manipulators conspiracy theory, and JimW also forwarded a theory, a different one to Butchs. Here is Jims personality issues theory "http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=10210194&postcount=615". Both explanations share a similar major and fatal flaw, in that they fail to confront the issue of 'non committal presentation looking like apology'.


----------



## Y_I_Otter (Jan 20, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> The whole point of the article is that the old approaches have failed. Nailing them to the back of the old approaches won't work. They haven't succeeded in anything at all - the watering down hasn't come from pressure from anti-fascists - it's came from common sense. Your response fucks up here.



I don't agree that the old approaches 'have failed/won't work'. A nominal increase in BNP support  isn't the only way to measure the efficacy of those approaches. 60 councilors out of a possible many thousands and a couple of MEPs in a few non-representative regions is the result of the party riding a perfect storm of sorts: voter apathy, dislike/distrust of the EU, and the expenses scandals, etc.-- conditions that aren't guaranteed to repeat themselves indefinitely.



> This is just the old Russian gold stuff in a mirror. It's meaningless. Where their money comes from is not the question and hasn't been for many years.



So what is the question then? I maintain that keeping the public informed of what kind of people the representatives of the BNP are today-- as contrasted with what they were before the party went all kinder and gentler-- is a valuable contribution and will continue to be.




			
				Y_I_Otter said:
			
		

> It seems as though the author of the article is of the mind that letting a couple of hundred or so assorted football hooligans, super-annuated skins, neo-nazis and Stormfront UK types have their racist day in the sun, on a junket to a British town center, absolutely unopposed, is okay. I can't see how that's productive.






			
				butchersapron said:
			
		

> Why, what in that article gave you that impression?






			
				the article said:
			
		

> 4 End the marches
> Stop the marches, labelling, shouting, and so on. Marching into an area that you do not know and have no continuing interest in and shouting what’s right for that area is alienating and counter-productive. People do not like being told what’s best for them and will kick back against or simply ignore this sort of activity.



This is one of the lamest parts of the whole piece, imo. It suggests that the proper approach to a demo by the EDL and their neo-nazi fellow travellers is to avoid counter-protest and let them have at it, with the tacit assumption being that the locals themselves, appalled at the racism and Islamophobia they spout, will 'kick back or ignore' them. I don't think that would be the case at all.

If the protests to which the article is referring are ones like those at the RW&B clusterfucks or outside hotels where the BNP hold conferences, I have to ask: who would it benefit if anti-fascist activists stayed away, apart from the BNP? 



> What country are you in y i otter?



Canada, why? Does that disqualify me from having an opinion on the matter or expressing it here?


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 20, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> A)Anything that you can't control, you're not interested in.
> 
> B)It becomes increasingly obvious, as some would claim it has for years (but of course, they're all "simplistic ultra-lefts", aren't they?) that for you this may not be *primarily* about anti-fascism, about class struggle politics or event about politics at all, anymore, but about you, power and your attempt at immortality.



A) That's not true, I am involved in many things, the overwhelming majority of which I cannot control. Whatever makes you think I'm seeking control, that is stupid, I would have simplistically jumped on Larrys and the IWCA bandwagon like a few round here if I wanted ultra left anti fascist 'influence' (whatever that is). No, I seek something bigger, something completely uncontrollable and radical - nothing like the ultra left anti fascists around here My fault is sticking it to the irrelevant who 'don't like it up 'em'.

B) Do give over. That's just ignorant and stupid thinking. Anti fascist arguments are not about anti fascism? Of course they are, to the exclusion of all else. And this is where your theory falls, if they weren't the arguments would not make sense. I have contructed a different autonomous anti fascist position to the ultra left shite, why should I give up these positions? Tell me that Panda. 

I have explained why and what ultra left anti fascism is elsewhere anyway - that tells me you haven't read it.

There is nothing to be gained by disagreements on the anti fascist scene. Your analysis falls flat on the floor because neither immortality nor power can be gained on U75, thats wierd.


----------



## Y_I_Otter (Jan 20, 2010)

frogwoman said:


> y i otter, the BNP are quite frankly in no danger of taking power in the UK, that is the least of our problems. You have a lot of really intelligent stuff to say but to be honest some of your recent posts on the topic demonstrate (to me anyway) that you have a lot to learn about the political situation there.



That's why I'm here.  

I don't believe for a minute that the BNP are in any danger of forming a government; far from it. But as you yourself say, its biggest threat is driving the political pendulum from right to righter.



> i don't claim to be an expert but I think that old style goose stepping fascism and the risk of the BNP "gaining power" is the least of the worries when it comes to extreme right wing politics in the UK.



Agreed, but keeping them on the outer fringes of political respectability is still something worth pursuing, I think.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 20, 2010)

Y_I_Otter said:


> I don't agree that the old approaches 'have failed/won't work'. A nominal increase in BNP support  isn't the only way to measure the efficacy of those approaches. 60 councilors out of a possible many thousands and a couple of MEPs in a few non-representative regions is the result of the party riding a perfect storm of sorts: voter apathy, dislike/distrust of the EU, and the expenses scandals, etc.-- conditions that aren't guaranteed to repeat themselves indefinitely.



Hang on -'nominal' - have you no history?


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 20, 2010)

Y_I_Otter said:


> This is one of the lamest parts of the whole piece, imo. It suggests that the proper approach to a demo by the EDL and their neo-nazi fellow travellers is to avoid counter-protest and let them have at it, with the tacit assumption being that the locals themselves, appalled at the racism and Islamophobia they spout, will 'kick back or ignore' them. I don't think that would be the case at all.



That part was nothing to with the EDL.  It was written before the approach that you support had puffed the EDL up into something.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 20, 2010)

Y_I_Otter said:


> Canada, why? Does that disqualify me from having an opinion on the matter or expressing it here?



Of course not - it does though make you reliant on media interpretations and official anti-facsist news. Which is why you parrot searchlight.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 20, 2010)

Y_I_Otter said:


> A nominal increase in BNP support



Seriously, what madness is this?


----------



## Y_I_Otter (Jan 20, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> That part was nothing to with the EDL.  It was written before the approach that you support had puffed the EDL up into something.



Are you suggesting that the emergence of the EDL as a racist force to be reckoned with is primarily the result of Searchlight/UAF making the public better aware of its existence and who its main players are?


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 20, 2010)

Yes i am.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 20, 2010)

Y_I_Otter said:


> making the public better aware of its existence and who its main players are?



Well done.



> making the public better aware


----------



## Y_I_Otter (Jan 20, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> Seriously, what madness is this?



I'm saying that the BNP support, such as it is, is largely in name only. I'd suggest that a great many of the votes they got in the EU parliamentary elections were protest votes whose intention it was to send a message to the major parties. 

I don't believe they'll do very well in the general election; not nearly as well as they think they will, certainly. It's debatable whether they can even raise sufficient funds to run a proper campaign.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 20, 2010)

How often does it take to become a real vote? Because there was 5 years between the 04 and the 09 elections. (800 000 votes vs 950 000) They sort of did stuff inbetween that got the elected and put their agenda on the national medias. When does it become real?


----------



## ymu (Jan 20, 2010)

MrA said:


> Is it any wonder why newcomers like me doubt your motives and are confused by the impression you leave regarding your views on the BNP when a little digging produces  http://   www.   storm  front        .org/   forum/showpost.php?p=2753139&postcount=2    this from Stormfront.
> 
> It's clear that you are anto BNP, but you do disguise it. Maybe you should have linked your resources which would have been much more informative and helpful then goading me into a bun fight.
> 
> (*editor: link removed)


You can't help yourself can you? Stop scratching this stupid itch. You made a lazy and insulting post in the middle of losing an argument very bacly, and now you're trying to backtrack whilst also maintaining that it was a perfectly reasonable thing to post.

Perhaps, just perhaps, you could have stopped to consider whether or not someone whose board name is butchersapron would be likely to be a member of the BNP.


----------



## Y_I_Otter (Jan 20, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> When does it become real?



If they crack the FPTP barrier by electing representatives to parliament, that would be a sign of 'realness'. If they were to grab a few hundred council seats _and manage to hang onto them_ to the degree that they actually control some of those councils would be another. I'm not seeing anything like that on the horizon.


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## Larry O'Hara (Jan 20, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> What I am deeply unhappy with is the formulation encouraged By Larry O'Hara/ Butchers that takes what the BNP says as worth repeating without critique. I do not agree with that 'all powerful' BNP policy and practice line because it does not accord with reality.



I am not surprised a lurking troll (in another post) should quote Stormfront about me, but the above is eloquent confirmation indeed about how the internet, and this forum, isn't the place to debate ideological nuances/anything of subtlety.

Simply put, the above is not just a misrepresentation of my research on the BNP, but a lie, complete with the apparatus of the weasel, _faux_ quotation marks about an 'all powerful BNP'.

Usefully, however, that the poster should lie so blatantly about my research performs three useful functions

1) It shows his claims to be non-sectarian and putting across a 'new paradigm' are bogus.  The 'Stalin School of Falsification' is clearly where he learnt this kind of technique.

2) It indicates, being charitable, he has either not read my research, or is not actually capable of doing so.  This, despite adding a couple of references to my research in the bibliography of his supposed 'New approach to anti-fascism.  Either interpretation (laziness or incapacity) rules him out of participation in any reasoned debate on anti-fascist politics.

3) It illustrates that Bark does not even know the meaning of a word like 'critique'.

The only point to debating with outright liars is if there is a third party audience who might appreciate or learn from it.  This forum, as the abuse and gross misrepresentation of Butchers Apron & Violent Panda by others on this thread shows, is not it.  Ironically (or perhaps not) I do have some disagreements with Butchers Apron's perspective in some regards--but this arena heavily populated by trolls/liars like 'The Black Hand' is patently not the place to articulate them.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 20, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> A) That's not true, I am involved in many things


such as?


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 21, 2010)

Larry O'Hara said:


> I am not surprised a lurking troll (in another post) should quote Stormfront about me, but the above is eloquent confirmation indeed about how the internet, and this forum, isn't the place to debate ideological nuances/anything of subtlety.
> 
> Simply put, the above is not just a misrepresentation of my research on the BNP, but a lie, complete with the apparatus of the weasel, _faux_ quotation marks about an 'all powerful BNP'.
> 
> ...



Poor old Saint Larry. I have read your work, not all of it, but enough to gauge its approach. 

I paraphrased what you do with the '_'  question marks, that is a recognised form of academic paraphrasing (condensing what people say). IT is NOT and was never meant to be a direct quotation, and I usually provide LOADS of references as others on U75 have pointed out. SO WHO IS THE LIAR NOW LARRY? You are.

Are you a Doctor? If so, you should know that. 

As for being lazy or incapacitated, I've done the reasearch. read widely, and those are my conclusions. You are another of the precious sort who thinks 'my way or the highway', thank the lord that the world is a bigger place and there are plenty of people out there who can come to their own conclusions rather than reading your approach and what you say and taking it as gospel. The ideological heritage of which I am not sure about, you are another one 'I don't get'. Unlike you, the autonomous tradition in Marxist theory is clear in its heritage and thinking.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 21, 2010)

Pickman's model said:


> such as?



It is impossible to 'take over' "Capital and Class".


----------



## Larry O'Hara (Jan 21, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> Poor old Saint Larry. I have read your work, not all of it, but enough to gauge its approach.
> 
> I paraphrased what you do with the '_'  question marks, that is a recognised form of academic paraphrasing (condensing what people say). IT is NOT and was never meant to be a direct quotation, and I usually provide LOADS of references as others on U75 have pointed out. SO WHO IS THE LIAR NOW LARRY? You are.



You "usually provide loads of references"--I took you to task because you provided none, no proof at all, then have the cheek to call me a liar.  I am not interested in "usually" but a specific evidence free lie about my research that I believe in an 'all powerful BNP'--which you have provided no evidence for, either when you uttered it, or now.  You are not condensing what I say--you are lying about it.  This is not acceptable in a saloon bar, never mind academic circles.  If you dont know the difference between truth and lies, no point in engaging with you further--but you haver eloquently shown just why reasoned debate is not possible on this forum.



> As for being lazy or incapacitated, I've done the reasearch. read widely, and those are my conclusions. You are another of the precious sort who thinks 'my way or the highway', thank the lord that the world is a bigger place and there are plenty of people out there who can come to their own conclusions rather than reading your approach and what you say and taking it as gospel. The ideological heritage of which I am not sure about, you are another one 'I don't get'. Unlike you, the autonomous tradition in Marxist theory is clear in its heritage and thinking.



I can barely remember any primary sources on fascist strategy you quote, certainly nowhere near the number I do.  Therefore the evidence base for your conclusions is lacking.  And by the way, to quote is not to uncritically accept--but then, you don't know what critique means, do you?.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 21, 2010)

Larry O'Hara said:


> You "usually provide loads of references"--I took you to task because you provided none, no proof at all, then have the cheek to call me a liar.  I am not interested in "usually" but a specific evidence free lie about my research that I believe in an 'all powerful BNP'--which you have provided no evidence for, either when you uttered it, or now.  You are not condensing what I say--you are lying about it.  This is not acceptable in a saloon bar, never mind academic circles.  If you dont know the difference between truth and lies, no point in engaging with you further--but you haver eloquently shown just why reasoned debate is not possible on this forum.
> 
> I can barely remember any primary sources on fascist strategy you quote, certainly nowhere near the number I do.  Therefore the evidence base for your conclusions is lacking.  And by the way, to quote is not to uncritically accept--but then, you don't know what critique means, do you?.



Yet more Comedy from Saint Larry. Proof, you want proof. Proof that your work is used by the BNP because it is so uncritical that it is safe for them to use. Proof that non committal description, and in places uncritical replication of their lines of argument (theoretical assumptions) and propaganda can lead others to think that you are an apologist for them? Those sort of lines of arguements have already been made on this thread by others, independent and unaligned people who have come to those conclusions by reading what you and Butchers write (regardless of whether you 100% agree with him or not.)

Saying that the BNP are effective, which you and butchers do ad nauseum, can lead to the impression that you (whoever writes tlike that) are an apologist for them. That is the 'all powerful BNP', a concept that is descriptive of that approach. it is NOT a theoretical assesment of your work and was never meant to be, is that clearer for you Larry. YOU and others, look for demons where none exist, deep immersion in a 'smoke and daggers' environment sees enemies, liars, charletans, and fraudsters everywhere. You, and not only you, do that and are doing that now. That is not to say that there are not those who are 'out to get you', but it is not me.

You are completely uncritical in your approach to your own writing and presentation. My Precious


----------



## Larry O'Hara (Jan 21, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> Yet more Comedy from Saint Larry. Proof, you want proof. Proof that your work is used by the BNP because it is so uncritical that it is safe for them to use. Proof that non committal description, and in places uncritical replication of their lines of argument (theoretical assumptions) and propaganda can lead others to think that you are an apologist for them? Those sort of lines of arguements have already been made on this thread by others, independent and unaligned people who have come to those conclusions by reading what you and Butchers write (regardless of whether you 100% agree with him or not.)
> 
> Saying that the BNP are effective, which you and butchers do ad nauseum, can lead to the impression that you (whoever writes tlike that) are an apologist for them. That is the 'all powerful BNP', a concept that is descriptive of that approach. it is NOT a theoretical assesment of your work and was never meant to be, is that clearer for you Larry. YOU and others, look for demons where none exist, deep immersion in a 'smoke and daggers' environment sees enemies, liars, charletans, and fraudsters everywhere. You, and not only you, do that and are doing that now. That is not to say that there are not those who are 'out to get you', but it is not me.
> 
> You are completely uncritical in your approach to your own writing and presentation. My Precious



You not only (again) give no evidence when I have caught you out in a lie, you then add abuse to it.  Nowhere have I ever stated, or implied, the BNP is "all powerful".  That is a ludicrous, slanderous, lie.

I would say, however, that having 2 MEPs and more councillors (by far) than all previous British fascist groups put together implies a certain degree of effectiveness on the BNP's part.  I do not see liars everywhere--I do note, for a final time, you have fraudulently misrepresented me as saying/implying the BNP are "all pwerful".  If you consider my objecting to you lying about my research is being 'precious'. then I plead guilty to that charge.  As I have taken you to task three times now and you are patently not going to provide proof my research portrays the BNP as 'all powerful', then I'm off.

I should as a conclusion, mention for the benefit of those who may have been misled by your misrepresentation, that the latest 12 page article I have written in Notes From the Borderland  http://www.borderland.co.uk/preview_002.htmon the '2009 BNP Election Success & Anti-Fascist Strategy' devotes 2 pages to analysing BNP strategy (i.e. why they actually won 2 MEP seats) but 6 to analysing anti-fascist strategy (Hope Not Hate/UAF) including a schematic alternative.  But, that's all a bit empirical isn't it--so I really will stop


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 21, 2010)

I don't think that anti-fascist protests are a bad thing, I think it's necessary for fascism to be opposed, but there needs to be an alternative put in its place, otherwise it is mildly effective with some people at best and downright counterproductive at worst. 

Protests are only useful in as far as they are good for networking, bringing public attention to the issue (and it's not like people don't know/havent heard of the bnp and their "alleged" racism) and demonstrating that there is public opposition to something. Counter protest by all means but at the moment one of the problms is that UAF is TOO inclusive in terms of including lib dems, tories, labour etc who all from time to time come out with the exact same stuff, and also there is no class based (or anything else) politics, it's all focused on sayng the BNP are bad waa waa waa and not attacking the issues that lead people to vote for them


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 21, 2010)

> Saying that the BNP are effective, which you and butchers do ad nauseum, can lead to the impression that you (whoever writes tlike that) are an apologist for them.



Does this work for other issues, like say the war in iraq, would pointing how effective tony blair was in leading the public into war count as being an apologist for him?


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 21, 2010)

Larry O'Hara said:


> You not only (again) give no evidence when I have caught you out in a lie, you then add abuse to it.  Nowhere have I ever stated, or implied, the BNP is "all powerful".  That is a ludicrous, slanderous, lie.
> 
> I would say, however, that having 2 MEPs and more councillors (by far) than all previous British fascist groups put together implies a certain degree of effectiveness on the BNP's part.  I do not see liars everywhere--I do note, for a final time, you have fraudulently misrepresented me as saying/implying the BNP are "all pwerful".  If you consider my objecting to you lying about my research is being 'precious'. then I plead guilty to that charge.  As I have taken you to task three times now and you are patently not going to provide proof my research portrays the BNP as 'all powerful', then I'm off.



Abuse? You have a lower standard of definition of the term abuse than the police, and that is going some.

Goodbyeee goodbyeeeee wipe the tear from the eye etc. 

I haven't lied Larry, that is your projection. you have just not paid any attention to or understood what I wrote. Here it is again so you can try to understand it this time "Saying that the BNP are effective, which you and butchers do ad nauseum, can lead to *the impression* that you (whoever writes tlike that) are an apologist for them. That is the 'all powerful BNP', a concept that is *descriptive* of that approach. it is NOT a theoretical assesment of your work and was never meant to be". 

Have you got that yet? 

It is NOT saying that is in your work (that is for others to decide and come to their own conclusion), I CLEARLY said it is 'an impression', a concept that gains force when non committal description of the BNP is repeatedly written (you know where that is in your own work Larry). 

It is not a lie. you can object all you want Saint Larry, but we all know that you and others are so very precious which is so patently obvious I think to any independently minded person.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 21, 2010)

frogwoman said:


> Does this work for other issues, like say the war in iraq, would pointing how effective tony blair was in leading the public into war count as being an apologist for him?



Yes I think it does. Appearances do count.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 21, 2010)

Larry O'Hara said:


> I should as a conclusion, mention for the benefit of those who may have been misled by your misrepresentation, that the latest 12 page article I have written in Notes From the Borderland  http://www.borderland.co.uk/preview_002.htmon the '2009 BNP Election Success & Anti-Fascist Strategy' devotes 2 pages to analysing BNP strategy (i.e. why they actually won 2 MEP seats) but 6 to analysing anti-fascist strategy (Hope Not Hate/UAF) including a schematic alternative.  But, that's all a bit empirical isn't it--so I really will stop



Crikey Larry, I may just have to read this I must confess to not having done so, so far. I'll post you my mags to swop

You may feel that I have misrepresented you, but I never attempted to represent you. It was a description and no more, you are projecting too much onto it i think.


----------



## Knotted (Jan 21, 2010)

The word you're looking for is "characterisation", BH. You are entitled to your opinion of Larry's work, regardless of how idiotic your opinion may be.


----------



## JimW (Jan 21, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> Yes I think it does. Appearances do count.



This is both patronising and counter-productive - my experience is people are far more persuaded by a solid analysis that isn't obviously just partisan, because we trust our own judgement, but are more likely to dismiss something that's obviously grinding an axe. Unless you think everyone's a fascist/racist at heart unless browbeaten.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 21, 2010)

JimW said:


> This is both patronising and counter-productive - my experience is people are far more persuaded by a solid analysis that isn't obviously just partisan, because we trust our own judgement, but are more likely to dismiss something that's obviously grinding an axe. Unless you think everyone's a fascist/racist at heart unless browbeaten.



Sure, for some people. I agree, people are put off by 'Life of Brian' politico's, I certainly wasn't advocating those old left forms.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 21, 2010)

Larry O'Hara said:


> I can barely remember any primary sources on fascist strategy you quote, certainly nowhere near the number I do.  Therefore the evidence base for your conclusions is lacking.  And by the way, to quote is not to uncritically accept--but then, you don't know what critique means, do you?.



To add, that I didn't write a piece on fascist strategy, I wrote about Autonomous Anti Fascism, and elections. Unlike you, I am more than an Anti fascist 1 trick pony, I do not spend my time on anti fascism alone. The evidence base for my conclusions are large and born out of the history of class struggle, and especially the British Marxist Historians, especially E.P. Thompson (you can read the Popular Front Anti Fascism in Mayday 4 that I will post you), and various other critical Marxist thinkers/thinking. 

As I said, I am sure about the British working class tradition that these ideas have developed in, yours I am not sure about. You have your priorities, but I do not understand the 'why' part, and their relationship with anarchist and/or Marxist thinking, the framework so to speak.  Is that in your unpublished PhD?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 21, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> Is that in your unpublished PhD?


perhaps you should try using ethos. but then you wouldn't know what that was.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jan 21, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> To add, that I didn't write a piece on fascist strategy, I wrote about Autonomous Anti Fascism, and elections. Unlike you, I am more than an Anti fascist 1 trick pony, I do not spend my time on anti fascism alone. The evidence base for my conclusions are large and born out of the history of class struggle, and especially the British Marxist Historians, especially E.P. Thompson (you can read the Popular Front Anti Fascism in Mayday 4 that I will post you), and various other critical Marxist thinkers/thinking.
> 
> As I said, I am sure about the British working class tradition that these ideas have developed in, yours I am not sure about. You have your priorities, but I do not understand the 'why' part, and their relationship with anarchist and/or Marxist thinking, the framework so to speak.  Is that in your unpublished PhD?



Come on now, stop manipulating Mr. A..... rofl


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 21, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> It is impossible to 'take over' "Capital and Class".



that's an example of the 'many things you are involved in'?


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jan 21, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> Oh the inimitable fucking irony of this post!!


the old 'irony' bulletin board trick. lol

PS.  Am sure Butch appreciates your sycophancy, but kindly take your tongue out of his arse, its not becoming in public.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jan 21, 2010)

MrA said:


> From the exchanges I've read between you and TBH which have been, amusing, informative and civil, in the main, so I can't see why any differences can't be overcome, you're both on the same side of the river so to speak, but crossing on different bridges.


As far as vp, butch, pick etc is concerned, that aint never goin to appen.  They can't believe that the rest of the left are genuinely pulling in the same direction, (always having conspiracy theories about nefarious aim's/objectives.)

As I've said repeatedly in this thread, when I've been "manipulating you"  rofl, just leave them to it mate.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 21, 2010)

MrA said:


> Anyway, I've apologised enough and it isn't good enough. Your problem not mine.


all i've wanted is for you to show where i said that the bnp constitution and manifesto don't have a racist and fascist agenda, and if you can't for you to do what you said you'd do, which is leave. as for apologies, i'll have one if you're offering them about.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 21, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> A) That's not true, I am involved in many things, the overwhelming majority of which I cannot control. Whatever makes you think I'm seeking control, that is stupid...


And yet it's your _modus operandi_. The joining, the engagement, and then the inevitable strop when people refuse to see that The Black Hand way is best.  


> I would have simplistically jumped on Larrys,,


Larry doesn't have a bandwagon. He's far too abrasive for that!


> and the IWCA bandwagon...


It's hardly a bandwagon, and it's about as "ultra-left" as a pair of sweaty socks. 


> like a few round here if I wanted ultra left anti fascist 'influence' (whatever that is).


It *appears* to be, given your use of the phrase "ultra-left" in so many diverse contexts, whatever *you* deem it to mean at any particular point of discourse.


> No, I seek something bigger, something completely uncontrollable and radical -


So you keep saying, but rhetoric and practice often differ, don't they?


> nothing like the ultra left anti fascists around here My fault is sticking it to the irrelevant who 'don't like it up 'em'.


"The irrelevant" usually tend to be synonymous with "anyone who disagrees with TBH", don't they?


> B) Do give over. That's just ignorant and stupid thinking. Anti fascist arguments are not about anti fascism? Of course they are, to the exclusion of all else.


It's ignorant and stupid to think that arguments about anti-fascism exclude any other consideration.


> And this is where your theory falls, if they weren't the arguments would not make sense. I have contructed a different autonomous anti fascist position to the ultra left shite, why should I give up these positions? Tell me that Panda.


Who's asking you to give them up? Not me!


> I have explained why and what ultra left anti fascism is elsewhere anyway - that tells me you haven't read it.


Actually, what it *should* tell anyone who can think rationally is that I disagree with you.


> There is nothing to be gained by disagreements on the anti fascist scene.


If, by your simplistic "analysis", there's "nothing to be gained", then there can be nothing to be lost, either, and yet we know that's not true: There are, quite literally (and sadly) careers to be lost and gained from the maintenance or disturbance of the _status quo_.


> Your analysis falls flat on the floor because neither immortality nor power can be gained on U75, thats wierd.


Who's talking about Urban 75 being the limit of your engagement? Of course it's not. Urban 75 is only another piece in the jigsaw of your moves hither, thither and yon in your attempt to find converts.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jan 21, 2010)

Pickman's model said:


> all i've wanted is for you to show where i said that the bnp constitution and manifesto don't have a racist and fascist agenda, and if you can't for you to do what you said you'd do, which is leave. as for apologies, i'll have one if you're offering them about.


 which items would you suggest highlight their racist and fascist agenda?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 21, 2010)

Pickman's model said:


> such as?



Onanism and beer-drinking, for example.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 21, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> which items would you suggest highlight their racist and fascist agenda?


their constitution and manifesto.


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## ViolentPanda (Jan 21, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> the old 'irony' bulletin board trick. lol


Well no, it's not a "trick" when the weight of irony is plain for even an idiot (present company excluded) to see.


> PS.  Am sure Butch appreciates your sycophancy, but kindly take your tongue out of his arse, its not becoming in public.


Oh, well done! A cogent rebuttal of the irony inherent to your reply to BA! 

It's all you've got, isn't it? A well-rehearsed set of smears to deploy against the gainsayers. It says all that need be said.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 21, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> As far as vp, butch, pick etc is concerned, that aint never goin to appen.  They can't believe that the rest of the left are genuinely pulling in the same direction, (always having conspiracy theories about nefarious aim's/objectives.)


It's not about "the rest of the left".
It's about how a single element of the left, mostly going *against* the direction a *majority* of the left groupings have taken, attempt to convince that they speak for "the left", and how they have a history of trashing attempts at a cohesive "popular" or even "united" front of "the left".

It might also be about how *you*, rather than debating the politics or the characters and actions of the political actors, take points in a person's post out of their original context and then attempt to use those words cross-thread as a bludgeon of insinuation.
This is why you have refused to point out to Pickman's Model the thread from which you draw your "conspiracy theory" allegations. You're worried that anyone who can be arsed to read the whole thing will realise what you've done and have a revelation of what a partisan cock you are.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jan 21, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> Well no, it's not a "trick" when the weight of irony is plain for even an idiot (present company excluded) to see.
> 
> It's all you've got, isn't it? A well-rehearsed set of smears to deploy against the gainsayers. It says all that need be said.


Call me an idiot, and then deplore smear's. rofl



> Oh, well done! A cogent rebuttal of the irony inherent to your reply to BA!


So illuminate the irony for the 'idiot'.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jan 21, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> It's not about "the rest of the left".
> It's about how a single element of the left, mostly going *against* the direction a *majority* of the left groupings have taken, attempt to convince that they speak for "the left", and how they have a history of trashing attempts at a cohesive "popular" or even "united" front of "the left".
> 
> It might also be about how *you*, rather than debating the politics or the characters and actions of the political actors, take points in a person's post out of their original context and then attempt to use those words cross-thread as a bludgeon of insinuation.
> This is why you have refused to point out to Pickman's Model the thread from which you draw your "conspiracy theory" allegations. You're worried that anyone who can be arsed to read the whole thing will realise what you've done and have a revelation of what a partisan cock you are.



Worried?  Worried about what?  It's a bloody bulletin board.  What's more A bulletin board that I barely post on.

As well documented in their obsession with SW on here, SW advise members not to get involved in such 'sect' boards.  Becoming retired from activity in SW several years ago, I ignored the advice out of the curiosity about what made the 'sects' tick.  IN MY OPINION I wasted too much time, as they are sects.  So lets me make this very clear, I am no longer attempting to debate you butch etc.  No longer have any interest in doing so, as I have made clear to Mr. A several times in this thread.

Next, I rarely ever did respond to Pick, because his bulletin board persona is more ludicrously caricature than Butcher's, and believe me that takes some doing.  If these two people talk the way they do on this bulletin board in real life, I would be flabbergasted if they didn't constantly walk around with black eyes or were locked up.

Next, if you wish to drag out old threads, do so.  I honestly don't care.  As far as I'm concerned, what you and several other people said about SW/CC was ludicrous conspiracy theory.  That's my honest opinion.  And it wasn't just those threads, the conspiracy theorist tendencies seap through in many threads.  I realise my pointing this has offended you, and I think I did apologise at the time for that, because the rest of the time, when you're not upset, you are one of the best posters on here.

I will say one thing about the topic of thread.  I have no problems whatsoever with the approach you an Butch have to opposing fascism.  I seriously and genuinely wish it every success.  I am just not convinced, because of the lack of evidence, that it is thre only approach that can be taken, and that people should to "give up anti-fascism".


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 21, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> As far as I'm concerned, what you and several other people said about SW/CC was ludicrous conspiracy theory.


link or stfu


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jan 21, 2010)

Pickman's model said:


> their constitution and manifesto.



which items  in the bnp constitution and manifesto would you suggest highlight their racist and fascist agenda?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 21, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> which items would you suggest highlight their racist and fascist agenda?


the two items i mentioned.

now about that conspiracy bit, either put up a link or fuck off back under your pile of unsold social workers.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jan 21, 2010)

Pickman's model said:


> the two items i mentioned.


sorry, edited to say, which items in the bnp constitution and manifesto would you suggest highlight their racist and fascist agenda? 





> now about that conspiracy bit, either put up a link or fuck off back under your pile of unsold social workers.


as i said not interested, but vp has kept note it appears





ViolentPanda said:


> It might also be about how *you*, rather than debating the politics or the characters and actions of the political actors, take points in a person's post out of their original context and then attempt to use those words cross-thread as a bludgeon of insinuation.
> This is why you have refused to point out to Pickman's Model the thread from which you draw your "conspiracy theory" allegations. You're worried that anyone who can be arsed to read the whole thing will realise what you've done and have a revelation of what a partisan cock you are.


so ask him.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jan 21, 2010)

delete


----------



## audiotech (Jan 21, 2010)

flounced?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 21, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> sorry, edited to say, which items in the bnp constitution and manifesto would you suggest highlight their racist and fascist agenda? as i said not interested, but vp has kept note it appearsso ask him.


*you* brought it up, let's see *you* produce something to substantiate *your* claim.

when you've done that, perhaps i might consider answering your question.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 21, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> Call me an idiot, and then deplore smear's. rofl


A smear is an *undeserved* attack on the character of a poster. Calling you an idiot is merely a statement of fact, especially when prefaced with the word "useful".


> So illuminate the irony for the 'idiot'.


The irony lies in someone who spends a lot of their time attempting to put across a partisan POV, to the exclusion of meaningful debate, calling someone else a "control freek" [sic]

Even an idiot should be able to see that.


----------



## danny la rouge (Jan 21, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> Even an idiot should be able to see that.


...if not spell it.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 21, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> Worried?  Worried about what?  It's a bloody bulletin board.  What's more A bulletin board that I barely post on.


Except to interject your pointless smears,


> As well documented in their obsession with SW on here, SW advise members not to get involved in such 'sect' boards.  Becoming retired from activity in SW several years ago, I ignored the advice out of the curiosity about what made the 'sects' tick.  IN MY OPINION I wasted too much time, as they are sects.  So lets me make this very clear, I am no longer attempting to debate you butch etc.  No longer have any interest in doing so, as I have made clear to Mr. A several times in this thread.


So why engage at all, rather than engaging in what is clearly a way that is ideologically-biased toward the views of your former comrades?


> Next, I rarely ever did respond to Pick, because his bulletin board persona is more ludicrously caricature than Butcher's, and believe me that takes some doing.  If these two people talk the way they do on this bulletin board in real life, I would be flabbergasted if they didn't constantly walk around with black eyes or were locked up.


Some people are more tolerant of fools than others. there's a shock!


> Next, if you wish to drag out old threads, do so.  I honestly don't care.  As far as I'm concerned...


So why keep bringing it up, every single time you get in a strop or someone disagrees with you? 


> ...what you and several other people said about SW/CC was ludicrous conspiracy theory.


Mmmm, because it's conspiracy theory to think that politicians might not have the best interests of the people at heart, especially when those politicians practice an odd form of internal "democracy" that boils down to top-down _diktat_.  


> That's my honest opinion.  And it wasn't just those threads, the conspiracy theorist tendencies seap through in many threads.


You make the claim, it's only right you should provide some proof. 


> I realise my pointing this has offended you, and I think I did apologise at the time for that, because the rest of the time, when you're not upset, you are one of the best posters on here.


I'm really not bothered about being offended. I'm bothered about the fact that parts of what's loosely termed "the left" are still more interested in issues of power and control than in genuine cohesion. This is why I dislike party politics - issues tend to move from the substantive to those that concentrate on the perpetuation of party far too quickly and easily for my liking. We shouldn't have to worry about UAF or Searchlight trying to control the direction and energy of anti-fascism, but as long as their strategies don't reflect accurately the concerns of communities but rather the concerns of the _commenterati_, then any possibility of a united front against the BNP, to defeat them even (and possibly *especially*) on their own terms (i.e. in electoral politics *and* in communities where they're using local issues around employment and housing as levers), then little will happen, not least because advocation of a vote for new labour or *any* mainstream political party is a strategy that perpetuates those employment and housing issues.


> I will say one thing about the topic of thread.  I have no problems whatsoever with the approach you an Butch have to opposing fascism.  I seriously and genuinely wish it every success.  I am just not convinced, because of the lack of evidence, that it is thre only approach that can be taken, and that people should to "give up anti-fascism".


The only thing I advocate exclusively is taking anti-fascism seriously, not just viewing it as an interesting adjunct to class and race politics in general. I've never preached "do as I do". I've only ever preached "for fuck's sake inform yourself before sounding off or you'll be ineffective in your endeavours".
Unfortunately, too many people are *still* happy to run with just waving placards and calling people Nazis as their contribution to anti-fascism rather than looking at cause and effect, and trying to understand and deal with them.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jan 21, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> A smear is an *undeserved* attack on the character of a poster. Calling you an idiot is merely a statement of fact, especially when prefaced with the word "useful".


Calling you a conspiracy theorist is a statement of fact, of my opinion of your comments.  Your opinion of idiocy is equality subjective.  





> The irony lies in someone who spends a lot of their time attempting to put across a partisan POV, to the exclusion of meaningful debate, calling someone else a "control freek" [sic]


But I don't.  Point to where I do that. 

I certainly made plain my belief that the position on most things of SW was correct imo some time ago, for a good while, but whether it was as you describe control freak, is debatable.  

So even if I was as you described, I don't do it now, and so you are wrong about my comment.

Whereas you an Butch have 100,000 post between you.  And don't seem able not to have something to say, even when it makes you look quite sectarian and stupid, ie here.
I wanted to create a thread, that wasn't a debate about how people oppose the fascists, but was a resource for people to use how they will. I thought it could be a thread where people could add links to pictures, videos, speeches, documentaries, journals that delineate something about the neo fascist nature of the fascist parties of Britain. 
I mean, I didn't mind your posts, they bumped the thread, but the point was what?  Certainly nothing was raised that hadn't been raised a 1000 times before.  Butchers doesn't seem able to agree to disagree on a fraternal basis.  a bit ocd.

And then there's the accusation that I am manipulating Mr. A. rofl.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 21, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> I wanted to create a thread, that wasn't a debate about how people oppose the fascists, but was a resource for people to use how they will. I thought it could be a thread where people could add links to pictures, videos, speeches, documentaries, journals that delineate something about the neo fascist nature of the fascist parties of Britain.


you mean you started a thread here in the full knowledge that you didn't have any ability to control what people posted on it, people said things you didn't like, and you got the hump.

now, returning rather wearily to the allegations of conspiraloonery, i see you appear unable to provide any of the considerable evidence you claim there is.

at this point an apology from you would be in order


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 21, 2010)

saying sorry shouldn't be the hardest thing for you, rmp3. after all, you must be used to it by now.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jan 21, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> Except to interject your pointless smears,


Pointless yes.





> So why engage at all, rather than engaging in what is clearly a way that is ideologically-biased toward the views of your former comrades?


As are yours.  And I  don't engage.



> Some people are more tolerant of fools than others. there's a shock!


everyones a fool to picks, he disagrees with. insane, period. butch ocd.,



> So why keep bringing it up, every single time you get in a strop or someone disagrees with you?


I don't.


> Mmmm, because it's conspiracy theory to think that politicians might not have the best interests of the people at heart, especially when those politicians practice an odd form of internal "democracy" that boils down to top-down _diktat_.


lol. yup those were your exact words.


> You make the claim, it's only right you should provide some proof.


 you know where my opinion is.





> I'm really not bothered about being offended. I'm bothered about the fact that parts of what's loosely termed "the left" are still more interested in issues of power and control than in genuine cohesion. This is why I dislike party politics - issues tend to move from the substantive to those that concentrate on the perpetuation of party far too quickly and easily for my liking. We shouldn't have to worry about UAF or Searchlight trying to control the direction and energy of anti-fascism, but as long as their strategies don't reflect accurately the concerns of communities but rather the concerns of the _commenterati_, then any possibility of a united front against the BNP, to defeat them even (and possibly *especially*) on their own terms (i.e. in electoral politics *and* in communities where they're using local issues around employment and housing as levers), then little will happen, not least because advocation of a vote for new labour or *any* mainstream political party is a strategy that perpetuates those employment and housing issues.
> 
> The only thing I advocate exclusively is taking anti-fascism seriously, not just viewing it as an interesting adjunct to class and race politics in general. I've never preached "do as I do". I've only ever preached "for fuck's sake inform yourself before sounding off or you'll be ineffective in your endeavours".
> Unfortunately, too many people are *still* happy to run with just waving placards and calling people Nazis as their contribution to anti-fascism rather than looking at cause and effect, and trying to understand and deal with them.


 god!  SOME of You anarchist are just so fucking arrogant! you seriously think your the only ones to think about these issues.

Anyway not interested in discussing politics on here. pointless.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jan 21, 2010)

Pickman's model said:


> you mean you started a thread here in the full knowledge that you didn't have any ability to control what people posted on it, people said things you didn't like, and you got the hump.
> 
> now, returning rather wearily to the allegations of conspiraloonery, i see you appear unable to provide any of the considerable evidence you claim there is.
> 
> at this point an apology from you would be in order


Nope, I was laughing at you lot trying to derail a thread, that nobody gives a shit about, cos ur ocd.

btw this ain't political vp, see?


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 21, 2010)

So, in short, BNP leader doesn't actually face jail and sectarian squabbling reigns supreme in this thread


----------



## Knotted (Jan 21, 2010)

DotCommunist said:


> So, in short, BNP leader doesn't actually face jail and sectarian squabbling reigns supreme in this thread



What sectarian squabbling?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 22, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> Nope, I was laughing at you lot trying to derail a thread, that nobody gives a shit about, cos ur ocd.
> 
> btw this ain't political vp, see?


and you're a raspberry ripple without any sort of medical qualification, hence using things like 'ocd' as an insult. as you say, not political at all.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 22, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> Pointless yes.As are yours.  And I  don't engage.


The act of participating on the boards is engagement, and implying that I'm "ideologically-biased" misses the point that the only baggage I carry from having been a member of *any* political organisation is a dislike for political organisations.


> everyones a fool to picks, he disagrees with. insane, period. butch ocd.,


Slights on mental health! Well done!


> I don't.


True, just *almost* every time.


> lol. yup those were your exact words.


Did I claim they were my "exact words"?
Of course I didn't, so please don't try to pull *that* particular flanker in the hope of distraction.


> you know where my opinion is. god!  SOME of You anarchist are just so fucking arrogant! you seriously think your the only ones to think about these issues.


Can you actually *read* (and by "read" I mean understand/comprehend what the sequence of words mean)?
I ask because what you take as arrogance is an expression of genuine disappointment that even after 80+ years of British anti-fascism people still believe that tactics that didn't work the first time around, let alone the twelfth, are still worth deploying.


> Anyway not interested in discussing politics on here. pointless.


So why the constant dropping into politics threads?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 22, 2010)

DotCommunist said:


> So, in short, BNP leader doesn't actually face jail and sectarian squabbling reigns supreme in this thread



Well, it was fairly obvious from the get-go that Griffin was very unlikely to see the inside of a prison cell, so we needed *something* to fill the void.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 22, 2010)

Knotted said:


> What sectarian squabbling?



I think he's talking about attica and rmp3's contributions.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 22, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> Is that in your unpublished PhD?


if people are so minded, they can hop along to the ethos site at the british library and download a copy of the good doctor's thesis. for free!

http://ethos.bl.uk/Home.do;jsessionid=1A1F874C248DCE4606DC7C71660D8AE3


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jan 22, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> The act of participating on the boards is engagement, and implying that I'm "ideologically-biased" misses the point that the only baggage I carry from having been a member of *any* political organisation is a dislike for political organisations.
> 
> Slights on mental health! Well done!
> 
> ...





ViolentPanda said:


> I think he's talking about attica and rmp3's contributions.


Just a bit of apolitical piss taking like pickmans and butcher's. They cant be being serious, can they?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 22, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> Just a bit of apolitical piss taking like pickmans and butcher's.


the difference is that that's all you ever do.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jan 22, 2010)

Pickman's model said:


> the difference is that that's all you ever do.



Yup! But hardly "different" to yourself, except I suppose your sectarianism. Mine isn't politcaly motivated. Don't have problem with VP politics, except his conspiracy theory, find them quite compelling.

oh yes, and I wouldn't do it just anyone.  just dicks like you and butch. wouldn't do it to vp, but he's been being a prick since I hurt his feelings.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 22, 2010)

Is this mewling by hardcore revolutionaries ever going to end?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 22, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> Yup! But hardly "different" to yourself, except I suppose your sectarianism. Mine isn't politcaly motivated. Don't have problem with VP politics, except his conspiracy theory, find them quite compelling.
> 
> oh yes, and I wouldn't do it just anyone.  just dicks like you and butch. wouldn't do it to vp, but he's been being a prick since I hurt his feelings.



ah yes, this conspiracy theory which you have been so unfortunately unable to find. 

fuck off, rmp3, and come back when you can produce some evidence for your allegations.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jan 22, 2010)

Pickman's model said:


> ah yes, this conspiracy theory which you have been so unfortunately unable to find.
> 
> fuck off, rmp3, and come back when you can produce some evidence for your allegations.


Butchers told you stop mewling, now obey your leader.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 22, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> Butchers told you stop mewling, now obey your leader.


after all this time and you still haven't got to grips with anarchists _not having leaders_.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jan 22, 2010)

Pickman's model said:


> after all this time and you still haven't got to grips with anarchists _not having leaders_.


that's the wind up, thick twot.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 22, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> that';s the wind up, thick twot.


i thought there was more to you than that, rmp3 

you're just a busted bladder 

and a ripple to boot


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jan 22, 2010)

Pickman's model said:


> i thought there was more to you than that, rmp3
> 
> you're just a busted bladder
> 
> and a ripple to boot


I bet it's like looking in a mirror, eh pick?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 22, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> I bet it's like looking in a mirror, eh pick?


no it's not.


----------



## audiotech (Jan 22, 2010)

Pickman's model said:


> if people are so minded, they can hop along to the ethos site at the british library and download a copy of the good doctor's thesis. for free!
> 
> http://ethos.bl.uk/Home.do;jsessionid=1A1F874C248DCE4606DC7C71660D8AE3



what's the title?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 22, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> Is this mewling by *hardcore revolutionaries* ever going to end?


Where? I can't see any (revolutionaries, not mewling, obviously).

Do _Vanguardistas_ count, or are they merely opportunists who set themselves up to benefit from the revolution, and whom should be invited to dance from the end of some Hampshire hemp?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 22, 2010)

MC5 said:


> what's the title?


you don't need to know, if you know the good doctor's name you can do a basic search on that.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 22, 2010)

Pickman's model said:


> you don't need to know, if you know the good doctor's name you can do a basic search on that.



And if you don't, just look at the pdf he keeps linking to, because it's address contains his surname.


----------



## Larry O'Hara (Jan 22, 2010)

MC5 said:


> what's the title?



depends on which Doctor you are talking about--my PhD had the title of 'Creating Political Soldiers? The National Front 1986-90'.  Including analysis of the trajectory of Nick Griffin...But hey, what would I know about modern British fascism, as compared to Dr Barking, who after repeatedly claiming my research talks of an 'all powerful BNP', was later reduced to claiming this_ faux _quotation merely summarised an "impression" that he wants me to provide the evidence for (because he evidently can't).

Future evidence-free stories from Barking Mansions--

'Haiti--how the media caused the Quake'

'Medical Scandal--how top specialists causeCancer in their patients'

'The Iraq War--how the Anti-War movement are Responsible'

and so on...no evidence required, just make it up and promise 'lots of fake quotations' (later)


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 22, 2010)

Larry O'Hara said:


> depends on which Doctor you are talking about--my PhD had the title of 'Creating Political Soldiers? The National Front 1986-90'.  Including analysis of the trajectory of Nick Griffin...But hey, what would I know about modern British fascism, as compared to Dr Barking, who after repeatedly claiming my research talks of an 'all powerful BNP', was later reduced to claiming this_ faux _quotation merely summarised an "impression" that he wants me to provide the evidence for (because he evidently can't).


your phd will take a month cos they have to digitise it first.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jan 22, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> Where? I can't see any (revolutionaries, not mewling, obviously).
> 
> Do _Vanguardistas_ count, or are they merely opportunists who set themselves up to benefit from the revolution, and whom should be invited to dance from the end of some Hampshire hemp?


Good one!


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jan 22, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> Is this mewling by hardcore revolutionaries ever going to end?


Doesn't look it butch, they're dying to dredge up old thread's.


----------



## audiotech (Jan 22, 2010)

Larry O'Hara said:


> depends on which Doctor you are talking about--my PhD had the title of 'Creating Political Soldiers? The National Front 1986-90'.  Including analysis of the trajectory of Nick Griffin...



You're the Doc with the .doc I thought I asked for.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 22, 2010)

Larry O'Hara said:


> depends on which Doctor you are talking about--my PhD had the title of 'Creating Political Soldiers? The National Front 1986-90'.  Including analysis of the trajectory of Nick Griffin...But hey, what would I know about modern British fascism, *(A)* as compared to Dr Barking, who after repeatedly claiming my research talks of an 'all powerful BNP',
> 
> *B))* was later reduced to claiming this_ faux _quotation merely summarised an "impression" that he wants me to provide the evidence for (because he evidently can't).
> 
> ...



Larry - you prove yourself to be an oaf repeatedly. You start by calling me a 'liar', not by trying to understand what I meant. You could have started something like;
 'what does this mean?' 

(A)      'Where have I written 'all powerful BNP'? (and that is if you honestly thought i thought it was a quote which I doubt)

Instead you go gung ho in a precious manner and THEN cheekily complain that 'I abused you' . Here's a little dialectical lesson for you, what goes around comes around, you started swinging like an oaf so I swung back. Simples. (Meercat.com) A bit of self criticism pls Dr Precious....

B) I wasn't reduced into doing anything Dr Precious. I clarified a simple original chatty bulletin board post, I really can't be bothered to play ball for you now either so you'll be waiting some time, and you've blown it up into some sort of test. As if I give a fek what you write. I do not. All you have is one take on anti fascism, well done, now get over it.

C) VP has called RMP3 for using prejeudiced mental health slurs, and you are using prejeudicial language too Dr Precious. Tsk tsk. Reactionary rubbish now isn't it. 

You do not get the 'human' part either....


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 22, 2010)

Pickman's model said:


> that's an example of the 'many things you are involved in'?



1 of the many. Another would be the IWW, another the WEA (& there's more), all un take overable - I am not involved in them to takeover, but to promote and encourage class struggle. 

But then, you & others should know all this. As Dr Marx said, if it is not struggle it is worthless, a 'mere academic exercise'. 

BTW Larry, the last bit IS a quote, from the 'Theses on Fueruebach' (spelling could be wrong though).


----------



## Knotted (Jan 22, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> But then, you & others should know all this. As Dr Marx said, if it is not struggle it is worthless, a 'mere academic exercise'.
> 
> BTW Larry, the last bit IS a quote, from the 'Theses on Fueruebach' (spelling could be wrong though).



It's not even similar.


----------



## Larry O'Hara (Jan 22, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> What I am deeply unhappy with is the formulation encouraged By Larry O'Hara/ Butchers that takes what the BNP says as worth repeating without critique. I do not agree with that 'all powerful' BNP policy and practice line because it does not accord with reality.



1) The above quote, from post 713 on this very thread, is what I took exception to, because  it falsely states I believe in an "all powerful BNP policy and practice line".

2) I repeatedly asked TBH to show me where/when I have stated or implied this.  He has not done so, variously claiming that he "usually" provides quotes, and ultimately suggesting I find the quotes myself.

3) His latest twist, in post 785 above, is to now claim I dont really believe he ever said this.  I do: above is the proof.

It does though, explain why TBH can't find any quotes from me, if he has such amnesia about his own contribution to this very thread.


----------



## Zhelezniakov (Jan 22, 2010)

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Where we compare Marxisms, Praxis, Autonomy, Ultra Left, you know.

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for COMPARETHEMARKET.COM. I cannot find you cheap car insurance.

     For compare MARXISMS, go Compare the MARXISMS.COM 

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Simples.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 23, 2010)

Larry O'Hara said:


> 1) The above quote, from post 713 on this very thread, is what I took exception to, because  it falsely states I believe in an "all powerful BNP policy and practice line".
> 
> 2) I repeatedly asked TBH to show me where/when I have stated or implied this.  He has not done so, variously claiming that he "usually" provides quotes, and ultimately suggesting I find the quotes myself.
> 
> ...



Larry, you have learned nothing then. For heavens sake, I said "'What I am deeply unhappy with is the formulation encouraged By Larry O'Hara/ Butchers that takes what the BNP says as worth repeating without critique. I do not agree with that 'all powerful' BNP policy and practice line because it does not accord with reality". 

I do not see it as problematic at all, as it has been said, it is a characteristation of the appearance of your work, it DOES NOT AND NEVER DID SAY YOU SAID IT. It is MINE, not yours, and that is clear. That is YOUR wishful thinking/projection and fabrication to say that i thought there was a direct quote like that at all. You are completely unwilling to comprehend that it was a paraphrase, a recognised technique. You sir, are becoming as much of a fraud as those you wish to critique. 

That you are whinging like a whingy thing is pathetic, funny even. That you cannot comprehend others may think that of your work (whether it is there or not), and I think it is funny too that you are sooo in denial AS I said, I have soooo many better things to do than ABC spell out for you why I think it is a reasonable characteristation of your work. I could, but I refuse at the present time


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 23, 2010)

Knotted said:


> It's not even similar.



Well spotted, it was not 100% correct, I got my 'scholastic' and 'academic' mixed up without checking.

Here is the quote in question "The dispute over the reality or non-reality of thinking that is isolated from practice is a purely scholastic question." I got the MEANING RIGHT THOUGH 

http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1845/theses/theses.htm

Fekking nitpickers


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 23, 2010)

Zhelezniakov said:


> I am Black Hand, founder of COMPARETHEMARXISM.COM.
> Where we compare Marxisms, Praxis, Autonomy, Ultra Left, you know.
> 
> But recently we get many people looking for car insurance, people looking
> ...



Is it funny, I hope you got some kicks. It bored the arse off me though


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 23, 2010)

Larry O'Hara said:


> 3) His latest twist, in post 785 above, is to now claim I dont really believe he ever said this.  I do: above is the proof.



Do keep up Larry, I made the same point in this post ages ago;

http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=10218412&postcount=715

You keep repeating yourself.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 23, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> Who's talking about Urban 75 being the limit of your engagement? Of course it's not. Urban 75 is only another piece in the jigsaw of your moves hither, thither and yon in your attempt to find converts.



You make me sound really dynamic and brilliant. Thankyou 

One little point, I am not after converts, I am after class struggle and people who are interested in building class struggle rather than moan about it ad infinitum ad nauseum etc on the web 

More time should be spent on building practical class struggle rather than posting indefinately all day everyday on the web. 

That is not to say the web hasn't got a role....


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 23, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> You make me sound really dynamic and brilliant. Thankyou
> 
> One little point, I am not after converts, I am after class struggle and people who are interested in building class struggle rather than moan about it ad infinitum ad nauseum etc on the web


So, converts then. 


> More time should be spent on building practical class struggle rather than posting indefinately all day everyday on the web.


Which is why I only  post for about 3 hours a day, unless it's a heavy morphine day, in which case I post for about twice that.


----------



## Larry O'Hara (Jan 23, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> Larry, you have learned nothing then. For heavens sake, I said "'What I am deeply unhappy with is the formulation encouraged By Larry O'Hara/ Butchers that takes what the BNP says as worth repeating without critique. I do not agree with that 'all powerful' BNP policy and practice line because it does not accord with reality".
> 
> I do not see it as problematic at all, as it has been said, it is a characteristation of the appearance of your work, it DOES NOT AND NEVER DID SAY YOU SAID IT. It is MINE, not yours, and that is clear. ...You are completely unwilling to comprehend that it was a paraphrase, a recognised technique. You sir, are becoming as much of a fraud as those you wish to critique.
> 
> I have soooo many better things to do than ABC spell out for you why I think it is a reasonable characteristation of your work. I could, but I refuse at the present time



1) You put out a misrepresentation of my research, implying I state the BNP are 'all powerful', or my research can be characterised as saying such.

2) I have repeatedly asked you for proof--evidence--that this characterisation is valid, at least 5 times now.

3) You have repeatedly shown you cannot provide such proof--it is not an accepted academic technique to misrepresent, call it a paraphrase, and then "refuse to spell out" why this misrepresentation is in fact accurate.


Using your technique, I can equally assert you are a 'neo-Nazi', 'racist', 'holocaust denier'.  Using your techniques I can then say

a) this is an accurate characterisation

b) say that I "usually" supply quotes for my claims

c) hurl abuse at you--Saint, whiny, Dr Precious, pathetic etc.

d) grandly announce I am sooooooooooo busy I "can't be bothered" to provide the proof.

Simpoules.  At least it is for a deluded liar like yourself.


----------



## Knotted (Jan 23, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> Well spotted, it was not 100% correct, I got my 'scholastic' and 'academic' mixed up without checking.
> 
> Here is the quote in question "The dispute over the reality or non-reality of thinking that is isolated from practice is a purely scholastic question." I got the MEANING RIGHT THOUGH
> 
> ...



That's not anything close to what you said. He isn't saying that thinking divorced from practice is merely a scholastic pursuit.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 24, 2010)

Knotted said:


> That's not anything close to what you said. He isn't saying that thinking divorced from practice is merely a scholastic pursuit.



Many have eyes but do not see - here is Karl Marx;

"thinking that is isolated from practice is a purely scholastic question"

100% saying, with no room for manouvre, that *thinking divorced from practice is a scholastic question.*


----------



## Knotted (Jan 24, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> Many have eyes but do not see - here is Karl Marx;
> 
> "thinking that is isolated from practice is a purely scholastic question"
> 
> 100% saying, with no room for manouvre, that *thinking divorced from practice is a scholastic question.*



He is also saying:

"practice is a purely scholastic question"

I'm sure we can get Marx to say anything if we quote fragments of sentences.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 24, 2010)

Larry O'Hara said:


> 1) You put out a misrepresentation of my research, implying I state the BNP are 'all powerful', or my research can be characterised as saying such.
> 
> 2) I have repeatedly asked you for proof--evidence--that this characterisation is valid, at least 5 times now.
> 
> 3) You have repeatedly shown you cannot provide such proof--it is not an accepted academic technique to misrepresent, call it a paraphrase, and then "refuse to spell out" why this misrepresentation is in fact accurate.




1) Of course your research can be characterised like that. At least you are conceeding this is what I originally meant. Well done.

2) Give over Larry, I am not playing ball for you. I have said repeatedly that I will not. Remember you hurled abuse first by calling me a liar, if you improve your pr, and don't jump in and call me a liar straight away next thread/time I just maybe bothered to do as you ask. 

But not now, no. So stop whinging about it Saint Larry and get on with writing something useful (i nearly added 'for a change then').

3) As I said Larry, if you read my points. It was a chatty bulletin board comment, as if I was talking down the pub. It is not an academic submission for publication, and that is why it is unfinished. You are so very precious, 'demanding this and demanding that'... Get over yourself, you and your research are not important.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 24, 2010)

Knotted said:


> He is also saying:
> 
> "practice is a purely scholastic question"
> 
> I'm sure we can get Marx to say anything if we quote fragments of sentences.



BUT you are making a crass abstraction, that is not consistent with Marx's work. 

If you want to read about the nature of abstractions I suggest you try "Making Histories: Studies in History writing and politics" (Centre for Contemporary Cultural Studies) by editors Johnson, McLennan, Schwarz and Sutton, published by the University of Minnesota Press, 1982. In particular the article "Reading for the best Marx: history writing and historical abstraction" by Richard Johnson. 

That shows the way I have used Marx is consistent with what Karl Marx meant and the Marxist method.


----------



## ymu (Jan 24, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> Many have eyes but do not see - here is Karl Marx;
> 
> "thinking that is isolated from practice is a purely scholastic question"
> 
> 100% saying, with no room for manouvre, that *thinking divorced from practice is a scholastic question.*


Taking the full quote, the subject of the sentence is the dispute, not the thinking. It's bad enough to edit off the end of a sentence, but the beginning?


----------



## Knotted (Jan 24, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> BUT you are making a crass abstraction, that is not consistent with Marx's work.



You haven't tried to understand my point.

Edit: Thanks ymu for explaining it. My patience isn't what it used to be.


----------



## Knotted (Jan 24, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> BUT you are making a crass abstraction, that is not consistent with Marx's work.



Is this a product of sheer idiocy - ie. does THB not understand Marx's sentence structure. Or is it a product of sheer cinicism - ie. does THB believe he can warp Marx for his own purposes and he thinks he can get away with it because he assumes that everyone else is too stupid to understand Marx's sentence structure?

I'm inclined to think the latter.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 24, 2010)

That's rotten by TBH and a prime example of why i rarely respond to him.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 24, 2010)

Knotted said:


> Is this a product of sheer idiocy - ie. does THB not understand Marx's sentence structure. Or is it a product of sheer cinicism - ie. does THB believe he can warp Marx for his own purposes and he thinks he can get away with it because he assumes that everyone else is too stupid to understand Marx's sentence structure?
> 
> I'm inclined to think the latter.



Don't be daft, here is the 2nd theses on Feuerbach in entirity, I think my interpretation is the correct one;

"The question whether objective truth can be attributed to human thinking is not a question of theory but is a practical question. Man must prove the truth — i.e. the reality and power, the this-sidedness of his thinking in practice. The dispute over the reality or non-reality of thinking that is isolated from practice is a purely scholastic question."


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 24, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> That's rotten by TBH and a prime example of why i rarely respond to him.



But you know nothing of Marxism


----------



## JimW (Jan 24, 2010)

Quite apart from the bigger misreading, "scholastic" and "academic" aren't even exact equivalents - the former will be a reference to scholasticism, a particular mediaeval theological discourse.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 24, 2010)

ymu said:


> Taking the full quote, the subject of the sentence is the dispute, not the thinking. It's bad enough to edit off the end of a sentence, but the beginning?



"The question whether objective truth can be attributed to human *thinking* is _not a question of theory _but is *a practical question*. Man must *prove the truth* — i.e. the reality and power, the this-sidedness *of* his *thinking in practice*. The dispute over the reality or non-reality of thinking that is isolated from practice is a purely scholastic question." 


It is thinking which is the subject, thinking is a 'practical question', only 'proveable in practice'. As Marx said. I do not see how you could conclude any differently tbh, only if you want to elevate thinking which is not grounded in practice, which only those who lack an authentic working class perspective would try AS Marx said...


----------



## Knotted (Jan 24, 2010)

The Black Hand said:
			
		

> As Dr Marx said, if it is not struggle it is worthless, a 'mere academic exercise'.





The Black Hand said:


> Don't be daft, here is the 2nd theses on Feuerbach in entirity, I think my interpretation is the correct one;
> 
> "The question whether objective truth can be attributed to human thinking is not a question of theory but is a practical question. Man must prove the truth — i.e. the reality and power, the this-sidedness of his thinking in practice. The dispute over the reality or non-reality of thinking that is isolated from practice is a purely scholastic question."



It's obvious you don't understand Marx here. Marx is saying that truth is not a property of thought. He's effectively saying that the proof of the pudding is in the eating. He is not saying that truth is unimportant, that theory and facts are mere academic (or scholastic) exercises. You can't use Marx when complaining that factual statements about the BNP are worthless if they are not "critical" ie. they don't go through a ritual of stating opposition to the BNP.

This thread is interesting because of three poster's attitude to political discourse.

RMP3 and MrA need rituals of diplomacy before disagreements can be aired.

They are joined by Black Hand in the need for rituals of opposition to the BNP.

We should understand the religious nature of sectarianism. All these rituals.

Having said that I doubt THB has a sectarian agenda. Unless you count BH as a sect with one member. MrA is probably Catholic (as a guess).


----------



## Larry O'Hara (Jan 24, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> 1) Of course your research can be characterised like that. At least you are conceeding this is what I originally meant. Well done.
> 
> 2) Give over Larry, I am not playing ball for you. I have said repeatedly that I will not. Remember you hurled abuse first by calling me a liar, if you improve your pr, and don't jump in and call me a liar straight away next thread/time I just maybe bothered to do as you ask.
> 
> ...



More lying evidence-free garbage: what a useless tosser you are.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jan 24, 2010)

Knotted said:


> It's obvious you don't understand Marx here. Marx is saying that truth is not a property of thought. He's effectively saying that the proof of the pudding is in the eating. He is not saying that truth is unimportant, that theory and facts are mere academic (or scholastic) exercises. You can't use Marx when complaining that factual statements about the BNP are worthless if they are not "critical" ie. they don't go through a ritual of stating opposition to the BNP.
> 
> This thread is interesting because of three poster's attitude to political discourse.
> 
> ...


Are you on a lot of drug's?


----------



## Knotted (Jan 24, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> Are you on a lot of drug's?



What's my crazy conduct got to do with anyone else? They're not responsible for me.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 24, 2010)

Knotted said:


> Is this a product of sheer idiocy - ie. does THB not understand Marx's sentence structure. Or is it a product of sheer cinicism - ie. does THB believe he can warp Marx for his own purposes and he thinks he can get away with it because he assumes that everyone else is too stupid to understand Marx's sentence structure?
> 
> I'm inclined to think the latter.



Well let's face it, misinterpretation/misrepresentation of Marx's _oeuvre_  by people wanting to use his work in support of their own ends is hardly a new game, is it?

Personally, I've found that if I selectively quote words and phrases from _The Communist Manifesto_, _On The Paris Commune_ and _Contribution to the Critique of Hegel's Philosophy of Right_, then you can get Marx to say "The Black Hand is the opium of the masses".


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 24, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> Are you on a lot of drug's?



That's a question that misses his point, which is that you and MrA, as well as TBH, have shown through your contributions that you favour a particular "method" of anti-fascism that involves conformity to your particularistic "rules of engagement" before you'll contribute to the discourse.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jan 24, 2010)

Re calling butch a fascis.





ResistanceMP3 said:


> Still waiting for links. You both lying?
> 
> In fact where have I ever called anybody a fascist?
> 
> ...


Still waiting for you apollogy Panda.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jan 24, 2010)

Knotted said:


> It's obvious you don't understand Marx here. Marx is saying that truth is not a property of thought. He's effectively saying that the proof of the pudding is in the eating. He is not saying that truth is unimportant, that theory and facts are mere academic (or scholastic) exercises. You can't use Marx when complaining that factual statements about the BNP are worthless if they are not "critical" ie. they don't go through a ritual of stating opposition to the BNP.
> 
> This thread is interesting because of three poster's attitude to political discourse.
> 
> ...


I ask about your drug in take, because your comments seem to bear no relation to reality.

1.  Sectarinism?

Beyond saying I believe the BNP to be a fascist, I've barely made a political statement.  My comment's about BA etc are personal, not political.  In fact my comment's about their politics have mostly been fraternal.   This post delineates both point's.


ResistanceMP3 said:


> You make him sound very arrogant.
> 
> Are you seriously saying UAF, Searchlight, MrA etc have no ideas, or just ideas Napolean  etc disagree with?  How effective have butchers ideas been?  Is it possible butchers is wrong?
> 
> ...


Note beyond that statement, I don't think I've actualy advocated that tactic.



2.  "RMP3 and MrA need rituals of diplomacy"?

I'm not interested BA's drama queen ignorance and arogance, beyond amusement.  I've done nothing but agree with facts pointed out by others.  I have no "need" for him to be diplomatic, in fact quite the opposite.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jan 24, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> That's a question that misses his point, which is that you and MrA, as well as TBH, have shown through your contributions that you favour a particular "method" of anti-fascism that involves conformity to your particularistic "rules of engagement" before you'll contribute to the discourse.


Your lying again, I think.  Links, to where I called butch a fascist, and advocated the UAF tactic in this thread, or apologise.


----------



## Knotted (Jan 24, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> I ask about your drug in take, because your comments seem to bear no relation to reality.
> 
> 1.  Sectarinism?
> 
> ...



I haven't said you are making any sectarian arguments. I agree, you're not making any arguments at all. Your point seems to be to harange people for not following, as VP puts it, the rules of engagment. You seem to be in a permanent state of culture shock.




			
				ResistanceMP3 said:
			
		

> 2.  "RMP3 and MrA need rituals of diplomacy"?
> 
> I'm not interested BA's drama queen ignorance and arogance, beyond amusement.  I've done nothing but agree with facts pointed out by others.  I have no "need" for him to be diplomatic, in fact quite the opposite.



You obviously don't like BA's conduct. It is interesting that you call him and VP arrogant. This is how religious people view atheists who speak their mind. How dare they state what they think rather than politely confide that they have their doubts in your faith? Arrogance.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jan 24, 2010)

Knotted said:


> I haven't said you are making any sectarian arguments. I agree, you're not making any arguments at all.


Fair comment.  You didn't accuse me of sectarianism, that's VP etc.  My opologies. [Sometimes you need a worm on the hook? ]

Your right totaly apolitical, which kind of negates vp etc whining and 'lies' about my sectarianism.


> You obviously don't like BA's conduct. It is interesting that you call him and VP arrogant. This is how religious people view atheists who speak their mind. How dare they state what they think rather than politely confide that they have their doubts in your faith? Arrogance.


No, no, no, selective/wrongly quoting is what your, wrongly imo, admonishing tbh for. tut tut tut.  What I said;



> 2. "RMP3 and MrA need rituals of diplomacy"?
> 
> I'm not interested BA's drama queen ignorance and arogance, beyond amusement. I've done nothing but agree with facts pointed out by others. I have no "need" for him to be diplomatic, in fact quite the opposite.


So your wrong about MY meaning possibly because;





> Your point seems to be to harange people for not following, as VP puts it, the rules of engagment. You seem to be in a permanent state of culture shock.


Miss again!  If anything I've encouraged their tendecies to be sectarian drama queens.  No culture shock, the www is full of Napoleans, but not usualy as charactured as the pink 'Nazi'.

Lastly, I wouldn't trust how "VP puts it", because so far he apears to be a liar, as well as a CT.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 24, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> Re calling butch a fascis.Still waiting for you apollogy Panda.


oh for fuck's sake. i'm waiting for you to answer questions which i doubt you'll ever get about to. any chance of you dealing with the conspiracy nonsense you raised some time ago? or an apology?


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 24, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> Your right totaly apolitical, which kind of negates butcher, vp etc whining lies about my sectarianism.



Seriously - why just make something up? I've not accused you of sectarianism, i've not accused you of anything - i rarely even bother replying to or reading your posts. A quick check of _your_ posting history though reveals a pretty transparent obsession with me though. That's pretty much all you've talked about for a few years.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 24, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> Seriously - why just make something up? I've not accused you of sectarianism, i've not accused you of anything - i rarely even bother replying to or reading your posts. A quick check of _your_ posting history though reveals a pretty transparent obsession with me though. That's pretty much all you've talked about for a few years.


yeh - well rmp3's a man with a great deal to be modest about.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jan 24, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> Seriously - why just make something up? I've not accused you of sectarianism, i've not accused you of anything - i rarely even bother replying to or reading your posts. A quick check of _your_ posting history though reveals a pretty transparent obsession with me though. That's pretty much all you've talked about for a few years.


you were to quick for me, but i had already taken your name out, before i read this. sos Napolean.


eta
lol, i think you do read.  my 1st or second post  in thread, and there are others.  also, how many other people have mentioned you? this thread is all about butchers now. cue vp, mk12, prick, etc etc etc, to defend their leader.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jan 24, 2010)

Pickman's model said:


> oh for fuck's sake. i'm waiting for you to answer questions which i doubt you'll ever get about to. any chance of you dealing with the conspiracy nonsense you raised some time ago? or an apology?


already dealt with it, ask vp.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 24, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> cue vp, mk12, prick, etc etc etc, to defend their leader.


the sign of a lost plot, rmp3, when you start pissing about with usernames.


----------



## MrA (Jan 25, 2010)

Knotted said:


> MrA need rituals of diplomacy before disagreements can be aired.



I can guarantee that you are wrong here, if I know the position of the person/poster with whom I'm engaging it makes it easier to adopt a stance and a suitable response. If I'm not sure I take steps to try to understand their position first.



Knotted said:


> Having said that I doubt THB has a sectarian agenda. Unless you count BH as a sect with one member. *MrA is probably Catholic *(as a guess).



What makes you say that, just curious. 




ViolentPanda said:


> That's a question that misses his point, which is that you and MrA, as well as TBH, have shown through your contributions that you favour a particular "method" of anti-fascism that involves conformity to your particularistic "rules of engagement" before you'll contribute to the discourse.



I can't speak for the others but for myself I would say that I believe that there are several methods of of anti-fascism, however I don't subscribe to them all. As for looking for conformity I would suggest that other forum members would disagree, now I know how the land lies on U75, I'm starting to get a picture of how posters operate. Most of the disagreements on this thread appear to be personal and driven by some historical vendettas.

As for rules of engagement before discourse, I think almost everyone has an agenda some deeper than others, my only agenda is opposition to racism. 




Knotted said:


> You obviously don't like BA's conduct. It is interesting that you call him and VP arrogant.



If BA wasn't so abrasive and confrontational *(IMO)*, he's seems OK. I wish I could figure out his position on dealing with the BNP though.

VP is a complete dick. Nuff sed.


----------



## Knotted (Jan 25, 2010)

MrA said:


> I can guarantee that you are wrong here, if I know the position of the person/poster with whom I'm engaging it makes it easier to adopt a stance and a suitable response. If I'm not sure I take steps to try to understand their position first.



If you read butcher's first few posts on this thread you can see he is anti-BNP. To be fair it is a little cryptic - but then he wasn't preaching. It's fairly typical of butchers and several other posters from anarchist backgrounds to present facts and let you make your own mind up. They're not a preachy bunch.




			
				MrA said:
			
		

> What makes you say that, just curious.



You seem to have needed to establish a relation with BA on the basis of either he explains to you how you should think or you explain to him how to think or a bit of both. If he contradicts your ideas about what the BNP are, you feel at risk of being disorientated - you're not comfortable working things out for yourself, you need guidance. There is the alternative in your mind where it's actually butchers who needs guidance (perhaps he's a BNP sympathiser). Someone has to guide someone else.

This is a sectish mentality in my opinion. The question in my mind is, "what's your sect?" I don't think it is a political sect - you don't seem particularly political except for your anti-racism. Also bippipitybop and Y I Otter do not share your sectishness so it's not to do with Moot Stormfront. I'm pretty sure it's because you are a religious man.

Judging by your reaction to okgirl, I think if butchers had turned out to be a BNP sympathiser you would have treated him much more warmly. You don't mind so much what people think or what they do - they can be made to see the error of their ways and forgiven. But you mind greatly if someone causes you confusion - perhaps threatening schisms in the church of anti-fascism. You complain bitterly that people on the same side should be abrasive to each other. Doubting dogma is allowed, but only if you treat it with respect. This attitude maps on to Catholicism pretty closely.




			
				MrA said:
			
		

> Most of the disagreements on this thread appear to be personal and driven by some historical vendettas.



There hasn't been much in the way of disagreement. This thread stopped being about the BNP after the first page or so. I think it's been a form of therapy for some people. It should be moved to Health & Sexuality.




			
				MrA said:
			
		

> I wish I could figure out his position on dealing with the BNP though.



You could try asking him.




			
				MrA said:
			
		

> VP is a complete dick. Nuff sed.



VP has shown almost heroic levels of patience throughout this thread. I'm pissed off on his behalf that you've said that.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 25, 2010)

i used to post on msf maaaaaaaaaaaaany years ago. in fact i was one of the founding members of the site and was very good friends with the guy who set it up. I stopped for a number of reasons but one of the main ones was because, among other reasons, of the fact that there were people on that site who were actually colluding and even friendly with fascists and becoming steadily more and more like the people they supposedly opposed and to be honest I didn't see how it could be a constructive place for debate or anything else of the kind when its focus was simply about "ego-wars" between racists and anti fash. 


no idea what its like now mind. i stopped posting around 2006 and havent looked at it since. btw, vp and butchers are two of the people i respect the most on here. you certainly wouldn't get me saiyng that if they were fash.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 25, 2010)

"Anti-fascism" on its own is a fairly meaningless concept, that's what butchers and others are trying to get across I think. Have a think about what fascism actually is for a start ...


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jan 25, 2010)

Knotted said:


> If you read butcher's first few posts on this thread you can see he is anti-BNP. To be fair it is a little cryptic - but then he wasn't preaching.


So plain and coherent, some considered he may be a fascist.




> You seem to have needed to establish a relation with BA on the basis of either he explains to you how you should think or you explain to him how to think or a bit of both. If he contradicts your ideas about what the BNP are, you feel at risk of being disorientated - you're not comfortable working things out for yourself, you need guidance. There is the alternative in your mind where it's actually butchers who needs guidance (perhaps he's a BNP sympathiser). Someone has to guide someone else.
> 
> This is a sectish mentality in my opinion. The question in my mind is, "what's your sect?" I don't think it is a political sect - you don't seem particularly political except for your anti-racism. Also bippipitybop and Y I Otter do not share your sectishness so it's not to do with Moot Stormfront. I'm pretty sure it's because you are a religious man.
> 
> Judging by your reaction to okgirl, I think if butchers had turned out to be a BNP sympathiser you would have treated him much more warmly. You don't mind so much what people think or what they do - they can be made to see the error of their ways and forgiven. But you mind greatly if someone causes you confusion - perhaps threatening schisms in the church of anti-fascism. You complain bitterly that people on the same side should be abrasive to each other. Doubting dogma is allowed, but only if you treat it with respect. This attitude maps on to Catholicism pretty closely.


Interesting definition of sectish mentality.  So basically, anybody who doesn't think and operate like an anarchist, is sectarian. rofl, that explains a lot.




> There hasn't been much in the way of disagreement. This thread stopped being about the BNP after the first page or so. I think it's been a form of therapy for some people. It should be moved to Health & Sexuality.


 I wouldn't say it has been much therapy for VP, rather just blindly lashing out.  Appears to be telling lies and making false accusations, ie sectarianism, and that me and mr a have called butch a fascist.





> You could try asking him.


 he could try asking him, but I bet your silence in this thread, butch won't answer. bet?





> VP has shown almost heroic levels of patience throughout this thread. I'm pissed off on his behalf that you've said that.


rofl, think you're displaying a "sectish mentality".


----------



## JimW (Jan 25, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> So plain and coherent, some considered he may be a fascist...



That plain and coherent that it acted like some magical screening device separating the sensible from the utter dickheads. So useful in that sense as well - why give weight to the political opinions of people who can't even read the discourse on a messageboard properly, let alone the actual situation in the real world?


----------



## Knotted (Jan 25, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> Interesting definition of sectish mentality.  So basically, anybody who doesn't think and operate like an anarchist, is sectarian. rofl, that explains a lot.



I didn't give a definition. I might define a political sect as an organisation that puts it's own interests before the goals of the broader movement.

For example the SWP wishes to use the BNP to build the UAF, rather than use the UAF to counter the BNP.

Note that sectarianism can be broad church. Sectarians can be the harshest critics of sectarian squabbling - they want to maintain the unity of their organisation at all costs. Most sectarians will talk about "the sects" and how they shouldn't be talked to. If you weren't sectarian you would have nothing to fear in disagreements.

Also note that the political sectarian and the religious sectarian are kindred spirits. They breed similar character types.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jan 25, 2010)

Knotted said:


> I didn't give a definition. I might define a political sect as an organisation that puts it's own interests before the goals of the broader movement.
> 
> For example the SWP wishes to use the BNP to build the UAF, rather than use the UAF to counter the BNP.
> 
> ...


Your pretty good at selectively quoting/answering, and then talking bollocks.  So you seriously believe "For example the SWP wishes to use the BNP to build the UAF, rather than use the UAF to counter the BNP." to put "it's own interests before the goals of the broader movement."    So you seriously believe the that I, the SWP membership, are not just tactical a mistaken, they actually have no desire to counter the neo=fascist's! rofl 

Dick head!


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jan 25, 2010)

JimW said:


> That plain and coherent that it acted like some magical screening device separating the sensible from the utter dickheads. So useful in that sense as well - why give weight to the political opinions of people who can't even read the discourse on a messageboard properly, let alone the actual situation in the real world?


"it acted like some magical screening device".  Yup you lot need screening from the stupid proles.


----------



## JimW (Jan 25, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> "it acted like some magical screening device".  Yup you lot need screening from the stupid proles.



Nope, screening from their self-appointed vanguard spokesmen. Stupid I will grant you though


----------



## Knotted (Jan 25, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> Your pretty good at selectively quoting/answering, and then talking bollocks.



I'm not selectively quoting and I'm certainly not going to reply to all of your disingenuous garbage. I might be talking bollocks though.




			
				ResistanceMP3 said:
			
		

> So you seriously believe "For example the SWP wishes to use the BNP to build the UAF, rather than use the UAF to counter the BNP." to put "it's own interests before the goals of the broader movement."    So you seriously believe the that I, the SWP membership, are not just tactical a mistaken, they actually have no desire to counter the neo=fascist's! rofl
> 
> Dick head!



We have to ask what drives them. How does the SWP actually function. Remember we are materialists.

In terms of what you and they believe, I don't think you/they would see any conflict between building the movement and countering "neo-fascism". I'm happy to accept that they believe in what they are doing.

This is a curious thing that seems to be far too generally accepted. Why is it that self-definition should never be questioned? Why is it assumed that because someone thinks they are doing X then it means they are really doing X and it is incorrect to point out that they are actually doing Y? Have you never read Marx on ideology? Little wonder the SWP created an organisation called "RESPECT". They are obsessed with bourgeois respect.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jan 25, 2010)

JimW said:


> Nope, screening from their self-appointed vanguard spokesmen. Stupid I will grant you though



Mr A?


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jan 25, 2010)

Knotted said:


> I'm not selectively quoting and I'm certainly not going to reply to all of your disingenuous garbage. I might be talking bollocks though.


What's disingenuous about it?  I haven't been apparently lying, like vp. 





> > In terms of what you and they believe, I don't think you/they would see any conflict between building the movement and countering "neo-fascism". I'm happy to accept that they believe in what they are doing.
> 
> 
> Well done, a better answer than VP, Pick etc conspiracy theory.
> ...


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jan 25, 2010)

JimW said:


> Nope, screening from their self-appointed vanguard spokesmen. Stupid I will grant you though



Mr A?:confused


ETA.  You do realise that Mr A.  Is not an SW member?  This is just some working class guy  I assume, interested in anti-fascism, but who butch considered too stupid to be worth talking to, who just wanted a clear delineation of butchers alternative.





ResistanceMP3;10183225]btw.  I agree.  Butcher's does know a great deal about fascism and has some ideas of how to fight it.  What's more they are very simple said:


> Sorry m8, it's secret.  I could tell you,,,,,,,,, but I'd have to kill you.




[/QUOTE]


WHY!  After 21 pages has nobody been able to put Mr. A out of his misery, and explain 'butchers alternative'?


----------



## Knotted (Jan 25, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> What's disingenuous about it?  I haven't been apparently lying, like vp.



Two instances of disingenuity in one small sentence:




			
				ResistanceMP3 said:
			
		

> So plain and coherent, some considered he may be a fascist.



Firstly I said nothing about it being plain and coherent. Secondly and in fact specifically lyingly "some" did not consider he may be a fascist.

I'm not picking through this sort of crap for future reference.




			
				ResistanceMP3 said:
			
		

> Well done, a better answer than VP, Pick etc conspiracy theory.
> 
> I  never said one should assume that because someone thinks they are doing X then it means they are really doing X and it is incorrect to point out that they are actually doing Y!
> Yup!  That's what I'd do/did.



You did effectively say this otherwise it was a non-sequitir.

Sure, the SWP were and probably still are motivated by the cause. They are not (fundamentally) insincere. But when it comes to practice there is always the question of how short term and/or factional interests clash with long term and/or the end goals.

I think the SWP are making strategic errors. However, I hold no hope of correcting them. They are too far gone.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 25, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> WHY!  After 21 pages has nobody been able to put Mr. A out of his misery, and explain 'butchers alternative'?


you've not been able to explain to me what you're on about with this conspiracy nonsense, so you're not in a position to throw stones here.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jan 25, 2010)

Pickman's model said:


> you've not been able to explain to me what you're on about with this conspiracy nonsense, so you're not in a position to throw stones here.


your fucking obsessed man, fuckoff.





like looking in a mirror, eh?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 25, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> your fucking obsessed man, fuckoff.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


you can't very well bring this conspiracy nonsense up in a future thread as you've been made to look a complete wanker about this in this one.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jan 25, 2010)

Knotted said:


> Two instances of disingenuity in one small sentence:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 am not surprised, because you're wrong.

1.  You're missing the point.  This has gone for 22 pages because
2.They didn't state he was a fascist, but they become confused, and considered he may be, I genuinely think.





> You did effectively say this otherwise it was a non-sequitir.


 I made no statement, merely tried to ascertain your meaning, because of picks, vp's, conspiracy theory.  Was interested whether you shared this, obviously not.



> Sure, the SWP were and probably still are motivated by the cause. They are not (fundamentally) insincere. But when it comes to practice there is always the question of how short term and/or factional interests clash with long term and/or the end goals.


 always a good question, but not one that has been answered.  I've certainly seen no evidence from you. 


> I think the SWP are making strategic errors.


 is it possible you butchers etc, could be making strategic errors?  





> However, I hold no hope of correcting them. They are too far gone.


entitled to your opinion, but I've certainly seen no evidence from you.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jan 25, 2010)

Pickman's model said:


> you can't very well bring this conspiracy nonsense up in a future thread as you've been made to look a complete wanker about this in this one.


to late, already done it!

tell you what, i'll pm you.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 25, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> to late, already done it!


in a future thread?


----------



## JimW (Jan 25, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> ...You do realise that Mr A.  Is not an SW member?  This is just some working class guy  I assume, interested in anti-fascism, but who butch considered too stupid to be worth talking to, who just wanted a clear delineation of butchers alternative.
> 
> 
> WHY!  After 21 pages has nobody been able to put Mr. A out of his misery, and explain 'butchers alternative'?



Whoever he is, and frankly who cares, I can can only go off his behaviour in this thread. Who throws their toys out the pram and starts calling people fascists if they don't get exactly the response they want first thing? Stupid people is who. Certainly not my experience of a normal conversation.


----------



## Knotted (Jan 25, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> am not surprised, because you're wrong.



Do you really want to argue this point?




			
				ResistanceMP3 said:
			
		

> always a good question, but not one that has been answered.  I've certainly seen no evidence from you.
> is it possible you butchers etc, could be making strategic errors?
> 
> entitled to your opinion, but I've certainly seen no evidence from you.



This thread is for therapy not political topics like the strategy of the SWP. I'm interested in how and why you and MrA are trying to enforce certain norms of discussion.

I am also interested in countering the BNP, but I'm not going to pretend I have any special insight - as far as that is concerned I'm happy to just sit quiet and listen to what others say.


----------



## Knotted (Jan 25, 2010)

By the way RMP3, your ability to read deteriorates rapidly when you are on the attack. I can understand this, but try to take a little time even with people who annoy you. It reflects really badly on you.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jan 25, 2010)

JimW said:


> Whoever he is, and frankly who cares, I can can only go off his behaviour in this thread. Who throws their toys out the pram and starts calling people fascists if they don't get exactly the response they want first thing? Stupid people is who. Certainly not my experience of a normal conversation.


so let's disregard your last post, because it was complete and utter bollocks, Mr A isn't an SW member.  rofl

Now let's read your latest load.  "Who throws their toys out the pram and starts calling people fascists". Link?  Where did he do that?

I notice how you don't criticise the people who agree with you politicaly, but have threw their toys out the pram and made umpteen unfounded accusations/lies.  fucking hypocrits.


----------



## JimW (Jan 25, 2010)

Let's go round again, baby let's turn back the hands of time. 

You've had the whole thread - if you can't see that not directly accusing someone of being a fascist in those very words but making various allusions to them presenting the arguments of the BNP and whatever the fuck else the whole tedious argument has been about you're even more of a lost cause than I thought.
Well spotted that I don't criticise the people I agree with and think are right in this instance. Bizarre position to take, I realise.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 25, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> So why bother 'debating' them.  You do realise they are are incapable of understanding, accepting, and working with the left, they disagree with. Hence, conspiracy theorie's.  I've give up.





ResistanceMP3 said:


> Maybe but he was right, about all the sectarian conspiracy theory nutter's such as BA, VP, Pick etc.





ResistanceMP3 said:


> Calling you a conspiracy theorist is a statement of fact, of my opinion of your comments.  Your opinion of idiocy is equality subjective.  But I don't.  Point to where I do that.
> 
> I certainly made plain my belief that the position on most things of SW was correct imo some time ago, for a good while, but whether it was as you describe control freak, is debatable.
> 
> ...





ResistanceMP3 said:


> As far as vp, butch, pick etc is concerned, that aint never goin to appen.  They can't believe that the rest of the left are genuinely pulling in the same direction, (always having conspiracy theories about nefarious aim's/objectives.)
> 
> As I've said repeatedly in this thread, when I've been "manipulating you"  rofl, just leave them to it mate.





ResistanceMP3 said:


> coming from a conspiracy theorist and proven liar, that post is the most amateur trolling.





ResistanceMP3 said:


> What's disingenuous about it?  I haven't been apparently lying, like vp.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


and you dare to call me obsessed


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 25, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> Re calling butch a fascis.Still waiting for you apollogy Panda.



I didn't say you had called him a fascist, so you don't need an apology, halfwit.


----------



## MrA (Jan 25, 2010)

Knotted said:


> If you read butcher's first few posts on this thread you can see he is anti-BNP. To be fair it is a little cryptic - but then he wasn't preaching.



Now that I know his stance on the BNP it's easier to look back and see he is anti BNP. You've have the benefit of knowing him for some time. At the time of the OP I didn't know him from Adam. I regret doubting him but I was genuinely unsure and asked for clarification,




Knotted said:


> You seem to have needed to establish a relation with BA on the basis of either he explains to you how you should think or you explain to him how to think or a bit of both. If he contradicts your ideas about what the BNP are, you feel at risk of being disorientated - you're not comfortable working things out for yourself, you need guidance. There is the alternative in your mind where it's actually butchers who needs guidance (perhaps he's a BNP sympathiser). Someone has to guide someone else.



 I am very opinionated, not always factually so, it's one of my flaws. I was seeking either common ground, understanding and perspective which I was unsure of. Once it was established I became more concillatory, the main reason was that once it was shown that I was wrong it continued to be a case of rubbing my nose in it. 



Knotted said:


> This is a sectish mentality in my opinion. The question in my mind is, "what's your sect?" I don't think it is a political sect - you don't seem particularly political except for your anti-racism. Also bippipitybop and Y I Otter do not share your sectishness so it's not to do with Moot Stormfront. I'm pretty sure it's because you are a religious man.



I'm not religious in the slightest, I have very strong views regarding religion in general and non of it positive same for politics, too many vested interests and too much dogma for my liking. 



Knotted said:


> Judging by your reaction to okgirl, I think if butchers had turned out to be a BNP sympathiser you would have treated him much more warmly. You don't mind so much what people think or what they do - they can be made to see the error of their ways and forgiven.



Typically I treat racists as scum. I try to make a distinction between the rabid WN racist scumbags and the misguided racist leaning person, I believe if that you understand an opposing POV you are better able to deal with it.



Knotted said:


> *But you mind greatly if someone causes you confusion* - perhaps threatening schisms in the church of anti-fascism. You complain bitterly that people on the same side should not be abrasive to each other. Doubting dogma is allowed, but only if you treat it with respect. This attitude maps on to Catholicism pretty closely.



Only if I believe that we are "on the same side", you can hold differing views, be incorrect in your assumptions or just plain stupid sometimes, we can all be guilty of it. I would expect someone on the same side to be more explicit when asked. My confusion could have been sorted early on.



Knotted said:


> You could try asking him.



I have apologised to BA but I haven't actually accused him of being a fascist I may have given that impression when I asked him to clarify his position. As for PM he came out to the woodwork and jumped on the bandwagon because he thought he could score some kind of internet points victory, all he achieved in my eyes was confirming that he was a confrontational dickhead.




> VP has shown almost heroic levels of patience throughout this thread. I'm pissed off on his behalf that you've said that.



That's your opinion and you welcome to it, as the recipient of his confrontation I view it differently and I still maintain PM he was being a dick.

BTW. I keep saying VP for some reason , Violent Panda is a poster that I'm beginning to respect already. He has been very patient, I wish I'd stop confusing VP with PM!! 





frogwoman said:


> i used to post on msf maaaaaaaaaaaaany years ago. in fact i was one of the founding members of the site and was very good friends with the guy who set it up. I stopped for a number of reasons but one of the main ones was because, among other reasons, of the fact that there were people on that site who were actually colluding and even friendly with fascists and becoming steadily more and more like the people they supposedly opposed and to be honest I didn't see how it could be a constructive place for debate or anything else of the kind when its focus was simply about "ego-wars" between racists and anti fash.
> 
> no idea what its like now mind. i stopped posting around 2006 and havent looked at it since. btw, vp and butchers are two of the people i respect the most on here. you certainly wouldn't get me saiyng that if they were fash.



The stance of MSF is to be civil to those with opposing views, the rancid rabid racists are soon gone. It's a shame because MSF was the first forum I posted on and there were some excellent antifascist posters, albeit it was after you left. Otter and I didn't like the direction the forum was going which was as you described so I bought the site and handed it over to Otter. He is more pragmatic and knowledable than I am and I get into a war of words too easily.




ResistanceMP3 said:


> Mr A?:confused
> ETA.  You do realise that Mr A.  Is not an SW member?  This is just some working class guy  I assume, interested in anti-fascism, but who butch considered too stupid to be worth talking to, who just wanted a clear delineation of butchers alternative.



Correct, from a working class background in Hull of places, one of only a handful of non whites back in the 70's and a victim of racism on a regular basis. Moving to Brixton in the late 70's changed my whole perspective!




ResistanceMP3 said:


> WHY!  After 21 pages has nobody been able to put Mr. A out of his misery, and explain 'butchers alternative'?



At the end of the day BA is anti BNP and that's enough, if he wants to enlighten me at some point I'd be happy to listen. As far as PM is concened I'm just going to ignore him.

Looking at your thread regarding resources and events concerning the BNP is an approach that I thought was worthwhile, I still can't figure out the hostility to it from some.


----------



## MrA (Jan 25, 2010)

MrA said:


> VP is a complete dick. Nuff sed.




I am so sorry, I keep posting VP when I mean PM, I'm going to stick to using the full name in future.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 25, 2010)

MrA said:


> As far as PM is concened I'm just going to ignore him.


you do that. it's better than making up further lies about what i've said. all my hostility to you has been based on you saying i said something i didn't, and then refusing to admit you were mistaken.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 25, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> Your lying again, I think.  Links, to where I called butch a fascist, and advocated the UAF tactic in this thread, or apologise.



*You* are showing yourself up for an idiot again, but I really don't mind that. It helps warn other people to avoid your blathering.
For the record, I haven't said you called BA a fascist *or* stated that you've specifically advocated "the UAF tactic" (nice of you to acknowledge that it is their standard "set-piece", though) in this thread.

Take more water with it, there's a good boy. That way you won't show yourself up as a liar accusing other posters of being a liar.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 25, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> Lastly, I wouldn't trust how "VP puts it", because so far he apears to be a liar, as well as a CT.



Here's a tip for not showing yourself up:

Post a link to where the person you're having a pop at actually did what you accuse them of, it's far more credible than posting a link to the post where you demand an apology for the imagined slight.

You dappy cunt.


----------



## Knotted (Jan 25, 2010)

MrA said:


> I'm not religious in the slightest, I have very strong views regarding religion in general and non of it positive same for politics, too many vested interests and too much dogma for my liking.



Looks like I got it wrong. That'll teach me to be a smart alec. 




			
				MrA said:
			
		

> That's your opinion and you welcome to it, as the recipient of his confrontation I view it differently and I still maintain PM he was being a dick.
> 
> BTW. I keep saying VP for some reason , Violent Panda is a poster that I'm beginning to respect already. He has been very patient, I wish I'd stop confusing VP with PM!!



OK fair enough.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 25, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> you were to quick for me, but i had already taken your name out, before i read this. sos Napolean.
> 
> 
> eta
> lol, i think you do read.  my 1st or second post  in thread, and there are others.  also, how many other people have mentioned you? this thread is all about butchers now. cue vp, mk12, prick, etc etc etc, to defend their leader.



With a cretinous comment like that, you show that you understand absolutely nothing about anarchists or anarchism, however many times people take the time to explain the main points to you.
Is it sectarianism or is it stupidity, or is there perhaps a third option? I'd love to know which it is.


----------



## MrA (Jan 25, 2010)

Knotted said:


> Looks like I got it wrong. That'll teach me to be a smart alec.




What I failed to tell you was that I went to a Catholic school . I was amazed when you said Catholic Tbh.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 25, 2010)

fwiw i read a few of mr a's posts when he first started posting on msf and he came across as decent bloke. i never really got to know him though.


----------



## MrA (Jan 25, 2010)

frogwoman said:


> fwiw i read a few of mr a's posts when he first started posting on msf and he came across as decent bloke. i never really got to know him though.



Wht was your username? Was it Edie?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 25, 2010)

Pickman's model said:


> the sign of a lost plot, rmp3, when you start pissing about with usernames.



And implying some sort of evil gang-like behaviour by the wicked @ists against the brave lone rmp3. 
I'm surprised the dappy twat hasn't regaled us with tales of the masses of PMs he's had in support of his "brave stand against the bullies". 

_Feh!_


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 25, 2010)

MrA said:


> Wht was your username? Was it Edie?



check PMs.


----------



## Knotted (Jan 25, 2010)

MrA said:


> What I failed to tell you was that I went to a Catholic school . I was amazed when you said Catholic Tbh.



Don't be too amazed. Lucky guesses happen.

I do wonder how much people retain of the belief system they grew up with. It's annoying for me - I'm an atheist like my parents, so I had nothing to reject. I just don't quite understand how religion works. So I like these guessing games, just to see if I've got it.


----------



## MrA (Jan 25, 2010)

Knotted said:


> Don't be too amazed. Lucky guesses happen.
> 
> I do wonder how much people retain of the belief system they grew up with. It's annoying for me - I'm an atheist like my parents, so I had nothing to reject. I just don't quite understand how religion works. So I like these guessing games, just to see if I've got it.




I suppose there must be a little retention I haven't thought about it until now.... thanks! 

I used to be removed from class when I asked an awkward question then accused of blaspheming would you believe. I'm not an athiest as such, I believe in God, just not religion... Does that make sense?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 25, 2010)

MrA said:


> I can't speak for the others but for myself I would say that I believe that there are several methods of of anti-fascism, however I don't subscribe to them all. As for looking for conformity I would suggest that other forum members would disagree, now I know how the land lies on U75, I'm starting to get a picture of how posters operate. Most of the disagreements on this thread appear to be personal and driven by some historical vendettas.


The way I view the overall thrust of this thread is that there's a concentration on anti-fascism/anti-racism as being primarily a modality in the prevention of the BNP expanding their political base, and while I can understand a fixation with this facet, I find it disturbing that for some anti-fascists it's the limit of the engagement with the idea. For me it isn't just about tackling a rise in popularity for the BNP, just the same as anti-fascism 30 years ago wasn't just about tackling the NF. It has to be about dealing with/attempting to solve the problems that cause the rise in popularity/allow the rhetoric to gain a foothold. It's about neutralising ideas as well as about helping people become aware of *all* the facts of a politically-legitimated BNP.


> As for rules of engagement before discourse, I think almost everyone has an agenda some deeper than others, my only agenda is opposition to racism.


It's not so much about agendas, as about the way that some posters attempt to narrowly define the ambit of a thread, and/or promote one position as innately more valid than another. Something that can't *actually* be judged without data.



> VP is a complete dick. Nuff sed.



That's me!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 25, 2010)

Knotted said:


> VP has shown almost heroic levels of patience throughout this thread. I'm pissed off on his behalf that you've said that.



Don't worry. I received a fulsome apology via PM explaining that he meant another poster, not me.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 25, 2010)

frogwoman said:


> "Anti-fascism" on its own is a fairly meaningless concept, that's what butchers and others are trying to get across I think. Have a think about what fascism actually is for a start ...


Precisely, and IMO it's the essential ambiguity of the basic term which allows it to mean different things to different people, and to cause friction in certain circles. To me anti-fascism is a practice that consists of resisting fascism and oppressive behaviour in a number of different ways, up to and including ways that use physical force and/or are illegal. It encompasses all strains, but isn't tied to a particular mode of expression as are, for example, the UAF.


----------



## Knotted (Jan 25, 2010)

MrA said:


> I suppose there must be a little retention I haven't thought about it until now.... thanks!
> 
> I used to be removed from class when I asked an awkward question then accused of blaspheming would you believe. I'm not an athiest as such, I believe in God, just not religion... Does that make sense?



It makes sense but it ruins my theory about you. 

Seriously though, don't take what I said too seriously. I was just being a smart alec.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jan 25, 2010)

Knotted said:


> Do you really want to argue this point?


Nope





> > This thread is for therapy not political topics like the strategy of the SWP. I'm interested in how and why you and MrA are trying to enforce certain norms of discussion.
> 
> 
> crap. http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=10234019&postcount=840
> ...


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jan 25, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> I didn't say you had called him a fascist, so you don't need an apology, halfwit.



As I said you apeared to, when you seconded mk12 comments after he had said I had.http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=10182333#post10182333

you also accused me of sectarianism and being a partisan, when I haven't proselytised anything.  As many people have said, my criticisms have been apolitical.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jan 25, 2010)

JimW said:


> Let's go round again, baby let's turn back the hands of time.
> 
> You've had the whole thread - if you can't see that not directly accusing someone of being a fascist in those very words but making various allusions to them presenting the arguments of the BNP and whatever the fuck else the whole tedious argument has been about you're even more of a lost cause than I thought.
> Well spotted that I don't criticise the people I agree with and think are right in this instance. Bizarre position to take, I realise.


Your wrong, I could see what happened. http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=10234563&postcount=855

More importantly.


----------



## Knotted (Jan 25, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> crap. http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=10234019&postcount=840



I am not saying that, nor am I even hinting that MrA is an SWP member. I don't think anybody has.

ffs just take a minute to read what's been said before you shoot off.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jan 25, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> *You* are showing yourself up for an idiot again, but I really don't mind that. It helps warn other people to avoid your blathering.
> For the record, I haven't said you called BA a fascist *or* stated that you've specifically advocated "the UAF tactic" (nice of you to acknowledge that it is their standard "set-piece", though) in this thread.
> 
> Take more water with it, there's a good boy. That way you won't show yourself up as a liar accusing other posters of being a liar.


simples





ViolentPanda said:


> That's a question that misses his point, which is that you and MrA, as well as TBH, have shown through your contributions that you favour a particular "method" of anti-fascism that involves conformity to your particularistic "rules of engagement" before you'll contribute to the discourse.



Links, to where I've done that.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jan 25, 2010)

Knotted said:


> I am not saying that, nor am I even hinting that MrA is an SWP member. I don't think anybody has.
> 
> ffs just take a minute to read what's been said before you shoot off.


Sorry, just get fed up making the same point over and over. The point was just at the bottom, no one has answered Mr. A question, yeh?  22 pages, why? ETA2 it's not about therapy so much, has taking the piss out of people refusing to communicate their ideas to people who want to understand them.

eta 





ResistanceMP3;10234019]This is just some working class guy  I assume said:


> Sorry m8, it's secret.  I could tell you,,,,,,,,, but I'd have to kill you.







WHY!  After 21 pages has nobody been able to put Mr. A out of his misery, and explain 'butchers alternative'?[/QUOTE]


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 25, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> Sorry, just get fed up making the same point over and over.



 Five more years!


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 25, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> Five more years!



Links for that, rofl?


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jan 25, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> Five more years!



Yup, it probably would be that long before you would answer the question saddo.


ResistanceMP3;10183225]btw.  I agree.  Butcher's does know a great deal about fascism and has some ideas of how to fight it.  What's more they are very simple said:


> Sorry m8, it's secret.  I could tell you,,,,,,,,, but I'd have to kill you.


[/QUOTE]

23 pages. lol


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 25, 2010)

Look lad, you say have a tactic and for some reason keep posting that 'fact'. What is it?


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jan 25, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> Look lad, you say have a tactic and for some reason keep posting that 'fact'. What is it?


what?


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 25, 2010)

Would you do me the favour of reading you own post above mine.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jan 25, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> With a cretinous comment like that, you show that you understand absolutely nothing about anarchists or anarchism, however many times people take the time to explain the main points to you.
> Is it sectarianism or is it stupidity, or is there perhaps a third option? I'd love to know which it is.


 how many times do I have to repeat this, none of my comments in this thread have been politically motivated.

I know enough to wind you up.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jan 25, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> Would you do me the favour of reading you own post above mine.


do me a favour and put your question clearly, it's not as if you don't have the time, 55500 posts.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 25, 2010)

You find this too complicated? Too unclear?



> Would you do me the favour of reading you own post above mine.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jan 25, 2010)

butchersapron;10235151]You find this too complicated? Too unclear?[/QUOTE]A tiny bit unclear.[QUOTE=butchersapron said:


> Look lad, you say have a tactic and for some reason keep posting that 'fact'. What is it?


Just wish you to make absolutely clear which tactic you expect me to explain, yours or mine.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 25, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> simples
> 
> Links, to where I've done that.



Cool, so if you're a poster on Urban endowed with the ability to read and understand what I've written, you'll be able to see that yet again rmp3 is chasing phantoms, that he's assuming things have been said that actually haven't been said.

What a plonker he is!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 25, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> As I said you apeared to, when you seconded mk12 comments after he had said I had.http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=10182333#post10182333


If you're going to post a link to something you're accusing me of, at least post a link to a page that I've actually posted on, there's a good cretin.


> you also accused me of sectarianism and being a partisan


No, knobhead, I said that *your* views are partisan. You yourself are as much a partisan as a piece of mass-produced cheese. 
Oh, and a link to where I've accused you of sectarianism, please (that means a link to where I've actually said it, not a link to an irrelevant page, or to a post whose contents you believe *imply* that you engage in sectarianism).


> when I haven't proselytised anything.


Don't use words you don't understand. Who has accused you of preaching? 


> As many people have said, my criticisms have been apolitical.


Where?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 25, 2010)

Knotted said:


> I am not saying that, nor am I even hinting that MrA is an SWP member. I don't think anybody has.
> 
> ffs just take a minute to read what's been said before you shoot off.



That'll be the bleeding day!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 25, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> how many times do I have to repeat this, none of my comments in this thread have been politically motivated.


So you keep saying, and yet your position on the issues reflects a different reality.


> I know enough to wind you up.


Playing the "I'm only having a laugh" card is the last refuge of the halfwit. Thanks for confirming, yet again, my opinion of you.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jan 25, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> So you keep saying, and yet your position on the issues reflects a different reality.


so, no matter what knotted etc say, it doesn't matter, only VP assumptions count.  OK m8





> Playing the "I'm only having a laugh" card is the last refuge of the halfwit. Thanks for confirming, yet again, my opinion of you.


No prob glad to bring a little mirth into your world.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 25, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> No prob glad to bring a little mirth into your world.


now you've done that perhaps you could work on some honesty and political nous.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jan 25, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> So you keep saying, and yet your position on the issues reflects a different reality.
> 
> Playing the "I'm only having a laugh" card is the last refuge of the halfwit. Thanks for confirming, yet again, my opinion of you.



before you ask.





ResistanceMP3;10231337][QUOTE=Knotted said:


> I haven't said you are making any sectarian arguments. I agree, you're not making any arguments at all.


Fair comment.  You didn't accuse me of sectarianism, that's VP etc.  My opologies. [Sometimes you need a worm on the hook? ]

Your right totaly apolitical, which kind of negates vp etc whining and 'lies' about my sectarianism.[/QUOTE]


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jan 25, 2010)

Pickman's model said:


> now you've done that perhaps you could work on some honesty and political nous.



Placating someones delusions, doesn't mean you share them.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jan 25, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> If you're going to post a link to something you're accusing me of, at least post a link to a page that I've actually posted on, there's a good cretin.


ok.
Mk12 makes a statement.


mk12 said:


> The only people on here who've called Butchers a fascist are people who obviously feel bitter that he has destroyed their arguments over, and over, and over again.


ask him to clarify who


ResistanceMP3 said:


> Like who? Where?


he names me


mk12 said:


> You, Attica and this MrA.


you agree


ViolentPanda said:


> Yup.


Thar's why I said appear to say I call butchers a fascist.  However as tbh says;


The Black Hand said:


> Rubbish. I haven't noticed anybody calling Butch a fascist. I Didn't. I suggested he could be mistaken for an apologist for the BNP, but that is not calling him a fascist. That is describing his approach to the BNP, which gives rise to people thinking he is a BNP supporter. That's his problem and his politics problem. Not mine.



I agree with the black hand, I haven't noticed anybody calling Butch a fascist.  Do you hve a link, or are you lying?


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jan 25, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> No, knobhead, I said that *your* views are partisan. You yourself are as much a partisan as a piece of mass-produced cheese.
> Oh, and a link to where I've accused you of sectarianism, please (that means a link to where I've actually said it, not a link to an irrelevant page, or to a post whose contents you believe *imply* that you engage in sectarianism).
> 
> 
> Where?


Already dealt with this here

imo, "spends a lot of their time attempting to put across a partisan POV, to the exclusion of meaningful debate" and your other comment's suggest sectarianism is motivation, whilst in reality I no longer give a shit.


> Don't use words you don't understand. Who has accused you of preaching?


Proselytizing is the act of attempting to convert people, which I have left to butchers, as I said.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 25, 2010)

Larry talking to a mirror;



Larry O'Hara said:


> More lying evidence-free garbage: what a useless tosser you are.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 25, 2010)

Knotted said:


> A) Marx is saying that truth is not a property of thought.
> 
> B) He's effectively saying that the proof of the pudding is in the eating. He is not saying that truth is unimportant, that theory and facts are mere academic (or scholastic) exercises.
> 
> C) You can't use Marx when complaining that factual statements about the BNP are worthless if they are not "critical" ie. they don't go through a ritual of stating opposition to the BNP.



A) Of course, that is what I am arguing. Truth is a process, it is dialectical and becoming (thats Marxism for you, or it should be).

B) he didn't say it, but it certainly seems to be a logical outcome of A).

C) I have and I did. There is a slight hint of straw man in your comment here (i wasn't saying do things in a sterile manner, that would never be consistent with my positions anyway), there are other ways of being theoretically critical of the BNP than the one U/RA/IWCA/Butch/Larry use. BTW Marx DOES say elsewhere that revolutionary ideas are 'practical critical', and therefore if they are not they are NOT revolutionary.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 26, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> Placating someones delusions, doesn't mean you share them.


someone smacked you in the face?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 26, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> so, no matter what knotted etc say, it doesn't matter, only VP assumptions count.  OK m8


What does anything knotted has said have to do with your position?
Bugger all.


> No prob glad to bring a little mirth into your world.


I don't feel mirth. I feel pity for you.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 26, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> before you ask.



You're not too good at understanding sarcasm, obviously, or you'd realise that what knotted posted can be read as saying that you can't possibly be sectarian because you're unable to make political arguments or in fact any arguments at all.
But hey, if you're cool with actually citing that, I am too.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 26, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> ok.
> Mk12 makes a statement.


mk12 makes that point on post #242.


> ask him to clarify who


You make ask that on post #245.


> he names me


mk12 replies on post # 246


> you agree


You've quoted me saying "yup". That was in post #310.

Guess what, folks?
In post #310 I'm replying to mk12's post #242, not his post #246.

I've quoted the post numbers so that those who are so minded can see for themselves that the only way rmp3 can *come near* any "evidence" that I said what he claims is by falsely posting that my reply to one post was a reply to another. 
It's all there for everyone to see.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 26, 2010)

Oh dear, poor rmp3.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 26, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> Oh dear, poor rmp3.



He'll post a disclaimer about how he was only joking, and throw in a couple of smilies.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jan 26, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> mk12 makes that point on post #242.
> 
> You make ask that on post #245.
> 
> ...


don't av a problem with that. that's why i gave you the links. you've clarified what i said appeared to be a lie me, appears to be was said several times.  i have no way of no way of knowing whether you argreed with mk12 intention in 242, until you answer.

however, what about mr a?  attica?  anyone?  again it's question several people have, who acutualy called butch a fascist.  [i've noticed if you don't put a worm on the hook you never get an answer.]


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 26, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> He'll post a disclaimer about how he was only joking, and throw in a couple of smilies.



Or he'll miss the _entire point _about what you replied to. As above.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 26, 2010)

butchers does indeed know a great deal about fascism. so what, though? i also know a great deal about it. and think we have to be vigilant against its rise, particularly when "the ideological cockroach" is in forms that it may not be immediately obvious what it is. knowing about something doesnt mean you agree with that thing. in fact, posters like VP and the like probably know more about fascism than do the majority of, for example, moderators on stormfront


----------



## MrA (Jan 26, 2010)

The trick is understanding why moderate people would consider voting for a fascist party. Understanding fascism, whilst it helps, is only part of the solution imo.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jan 26, 2010)

butchersapron;10240216]Or he'll miss the [i]entire point [/I]about what you replied to. As above.[/QUOTE]funny how you never answer.[QUOTE][QUOTE=butchersapron said:


> Five more years!



Yup, it probably would be that long before you would answer the question saddo.


ResistanceMP3;10183225]btw.  I agree.  Butcher's does know a great deal about fascism and has some ideas of how to fight it.  What's more they are very simple said:


> Sorry m8, it's secret.  I could tell you,,,,,,,,, but I'd have to kill you.


[/QUOTE]

23 pages. lol[/QUOTE]im trying for 25. lol


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jan 26, 2010)

frogwoman said:


> butchers does indeed know a great deal about fascism. so what, though? i also know a great deal about it. and think we have to be vigilant against its rise, particularly when "the ideological cockroach" is in forms that it may not be immediately obvious what it is. knowing about something doesnt mean you agree with that thing. in fact, posters like VP and the like probably know more about fascism than do the majority of, for example, moderators on stormfront


and? so what? whats the conclusion m8?


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Jan 26, 2010)

Louis MacNeice


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 26, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> don't av a problem with that. that's why i gave you the links. you've clarified what i said appeared to be a lie me, appears to be was said several times.  i have no way of no way of knowing whether you argreed with mk12 intention in 242, until you answer.


So let's "clarify"  by all means.
You're *admitting* that you posted a selection of posts by yourself and others that was deliberately intended to give the impression I was replying to one post when I was actually replying to another, in an attempt to clarify a lie about you?
_Oy_ fucking _vey_ but the dumb-fuckedness is strong in this one!  


> however, what about mr a?  attica?  anyone?  again it's question several people have, who acutualy called butch a fascist.  [i've noticed if you don't put a worm on the hook you never get an answer.]


Wibble wibble, jibber jabber.  Comprehensible and relevant sentences please, not the sound of your bowel evacuating transcribed into words.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 26, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> Or he'll miss the _entire point _about what you replied to. As above.



Yes indeedy.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 26, 2010)

MrA said:


> The trick is understanding why moderate people would consider voting for a fascist party. Understanding fascism, whilst it helps, is only part of the solution imo.



Not really, it's part and parcel of the same thing. You have to understand the one to be able to understand the other, otherwise you can't present a reasoned alternative.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jan 26, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> So let's "clarify"  by all means.
> You're *admitting* that you posted a selection of posts by yourself and others that was deliberately intended to give the impression I was replying to one post when I was actually replying to another, in an attempt to clarify a lie about you?
> _Oy_ fucking _vey_ but the dumb-fuckedness is strong in this one!


nope.  





> Wibble wibble, jibber jabber.  Comprehensible and relevant sentences please, not the sound of your bowel evacuating transcribed into words.


did anyone call butch a fascist.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 26, 2010)

MrA said:


> The trick is understanding why moderate people would consider voting for a fascist party. Understanding fascism, whilst it helps, is only part of the solution imo.



Yes, the answer imho of course is class struggle


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 26, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> A) Well let's face it, misinterpretation/misrepresentation of Marx's _oeuvre_  by people wanting to use his work in support of their own ends is hardly a new game, is it?
> 
> B) Personally, I've found that if I selectively quote words and phrases from _The Communist Manifesto_, _On The Paris Commune_ and _Contribution to the Critique of Hegel's Philosophy of Right_, then you can get Marx to say "The Black Hand is the opium of the masses".




A) Me and all the other Hegelian Marxists eh VP. I am in good company.

No VP, it is not misrepresentation, it is a position (you lot just have a different one), entirely in the critical Marxist tradition and not in the orthodox one (and that includes the ultra left).

B) The point I have made is clear, I have explained in a clear way for any independent people to see, to make their own mind up. 

You lot just gang up and back slap in a particularly nauseating way at any excuse, its pathetic. Its certainly not open nor critical.


----------



## rioted (Jan 26, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> ... did anyone call butch a fascist.


Why not? It would generate a lot of posts. We could call someone a toucher next.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 26, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> You lot just gang up and back slap in a particularly nauseating way at any excuse, its pathetic. Its certainly not open nor critical.



Has it ever occurred to you that if more than one person holds an opinion of you that's less than flattering, that it might be due to what you post, and not because people are ganging up on you?

Probably not, eh?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 27, 2010)

rioted said:


> Why not? It would generate a lot of posts. We could call someone a toucher next.



toucher turtle


----------



## MrA (Jan 27, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> Not really, it's part and parcel of the same thing. You have to understand the one to be able to understand the other, otherwise you can't present a reasoned alternative.



People who could be swayed to vote BNP wouldn't understand fascism beyond knowing that it's just "bad" and linked in some way to racism. Most don't know if the BNP are truly racist or facist because they have no exposure to BNP policies or their leadership histories. 
All they see or hear are the snippets in the media that give the impression that the BNP stand for British culture, British tradition and  Bristish jobs. How many would think that was a bad platform to stand on? How many would view it as racist or fascist? As Otter pointed out earlier in this thread, all methods of opposition to the BNP are valid, one doesn't trump another. 

I'd like to understand the root cause and not the sympton of why people would even consider supporting the BNP.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 27, 2010)

MrA said:


> People who could be swayed to vote BNP wouldn't understand fascism beyond knowing that it's just "bad" and linked in some way to racism. Most don't know if the BNP are truly racist or facist because they have no exposure to BNP policies or their leadership histories.
> All they see or hear are the snippets in the media that give the impression that the BNP stand for British culture, British tradition and  Bristish jobs. How many would think that was a bad platform to stand on? How many would view it as racist or fascist? As Otter pointed out earlier in this thread, all methods of opposition to the BNP are valid, one doesn't trump another.
> 
> I'd like to understand the root cause and not the sympton of why people would even consider supporting the BNP.


from what you've said in this post it's because they're thick.

eg: 'People who could be swayed to vote BNP wouldn't understand fascism beyond knowing that it's just "bad" and linked in some way to racism'

and you follow this up with utter bilge. eg: 'All they see or hear are the snippets in the media that give the impression that the BNP stand for British culture, British tradition and  Bristish jobs.' but we've already established that every mainstream media outlet has described them as racists. you've said before that if i could provide proof of your mendacity you'd be on your way. while i doubt you'll sling your hook, your claim about snippets in the media is a clear lie.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 27, 2010)

...


----------



## Luther Blissett (Jan 27, 2010)

BNP Exposed - The Secret Agent BBC part 2 of 7


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 27, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> Has it ever occurred to you that if more than one person holds an opinion of you that's less than flattering, that it might be due to what you post, and not because people are ganging up on you?
> 
> Probably not, eh?



Give over, that's just bullshit and you know it is. 

I quite like people who are open to discussing things, and that is certainly NOT the experience on U75. 
'My way or the highway' is certainly the dominant characteristic of these ultra lefties, the example on this thread is a good one. 

There is no experimentation or exploration of what politics actually is, it is just the application of preconceived prejeudices, and it is going nowhere and it has gone nowhere for years. How long will the tired ultra lefties keep this up? Unfortunately if experience is anything to go on, way too long. Its a big all round FAIL.

A few years ago the tired lefties came onto U75 and just do the same thing over and over again. Its very sad. That you have joined the lizards is even more sad.


----------



## Luther Blissett (Jan 27, 2010)

Every thread winds up being about Black Hand 
'E's a troll on a roll ...


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 27, 2010)

Luther Blissett said:


> Every thread winds up being about Black Hand
> 'E's a troll on a roll ...



That's not true, although if my fans love me so much then it is good


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 27, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> That's not true, although if my fans love me so much then it is good


i suppose you'll be printing a longer run of mayday 5 then.


----------



## Ibn Khaldoun (Jan 27, 2010)

Aw  I want to take over the BNP


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 27, 2010)

Pickman's model said:


> i suppose you'll be printing a longer run of mayday 5 then.



TBH Mayday circulation is BETTER than my old magazine ANIMAL was in the 1990s already. 

Also, in proportion and taking everything into account Mayday puts the circulation of other magazines to shame imho - but then I would say that wouldn't I


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 27, 2010)

Luther Blissett said:


> Every thread winds up being about Black Hand
> 'E's a troll on a roll ...



Given that I want to see more of stuff like this, my role is not that of a troll;
http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=9953293&postcount=101

It is surprising how bad and unconstructive threads are on U75. That is all your faults peeps, not mine. 

I defend myself and will continue to do so


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 27, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> TBH Mayday circulation is BETTER than my old magazine ANIMAL was in the 1990s already.
> 
> Also, in proportion and taking everything into account Mayday puts the circulation of other magazines to shame imho - but then I would say that wouldn't I


but it doesn't circulate! the last time i checked, there were more copies in freedom than you'd actually dropped off, as someone who'd bought it at the bookfair and then had a look inside had left it in the shop.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 27, 2010)

Pickman's model said:


> but it doesn't circulate! the last time i checked, there were more copies in freedom than you'd actually dropped off, as someone who'd bought it at the bookfair and then had a look inside had left it in the shop.



SO he wanted others to have a look at it.  You can look at your example in 2 ways Pickman, positive and negative, reality isn't straight forward and you cannot assume things as you have done.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 27, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> SO he wanted others to have a look at it.  You can look at your example in 2 ways Pickman, positive and negative, reality isn't straight forward and you cannot assume things as you have done.



they still aren't selling. unless people are halfinching them out of freedom.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 27, 2010)

Pickman's model said:


> they still aren't selling. unless people are halfinching them out of freedom.



Selling magazines is difficult these days for everybody due to technological change and therefore changing habits.

The bigger mistake and one I feel guilty about is the gender assumption in my last post on this thread. Apologies. It should have read "he/she".


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 27, 2010)

Especially if they're shit.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 27, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> Especially if they're shit.



It is a good job Mayday is a practical contribution to the class struggle then Butch. The postal worker article was excellent labour process material of a key class struggle. TO say otherwise is expedient and/or lies.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 27, 2010)

MrA said:


> People who could be swayed to vote BNP wouldn't understand fascism beyond knowing that it's just "bad" and linked in some way to racism.


Why not, are they too thick?
No, they're not. They may *very well* understand what fascism is, but still vote for the BNP. Voting, in the UK, tends to be instrumentally-inclined rather than community-centric, that is; people vote for the candidate who offers them the best deal, not the one who'll be "best" for the whole community. Gone are the days when a majority of British subjects voted along lines of assumed class interest. We now live in the days of "every man for himself".


> Most don't know if the BNP are truly racist or facist because they have no exposure to BNP policies or their leadership histories.
> All they see or hear are the snippets in the media that give the impression that the BNP stand for British culture, British tradition and  Bristish jobs. How many would think that was a bad platform to stand on? How many would view it as racist or fascist? As Otter pointed out earlier in this thread, all methods of opposition to the BNP are valid, one doesn't trump another.


I haven't said otherwise.


> I'd like to understand the root cause and not the sympton of why people would even consider supporting the BNP.


Fear and insecurity. We're in the same place as we were 85 years ago, in terms of social insecurity and the cleavages between those with power and those without. The difference between then and now is that the working class back then understood that they could, to some degree, build alternative structures. Nowadays that solidarity and willingness to step outside the "safety" of the safety net has been indoctrinated out of people. That's why someone promising to curb immigration and put a feeling of self-pride back into people can garner votes. It's why Thatcher was able to draw most of the votes of NF sympathisers back when she first came to power; by promising to do much of what the NF were promising to do.


----------



## JimPage (Jan 27, 2010)

Court case tomorrow, incidentally. BNP asking for a 3 week adjournment, I understand


----------



## Luther Blissett (Jan 27, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> TBH Mayday circulation is BETTER than my old magazine ANIMAL was in the 1990s already.


Three *is* better that one.


> Also, in proportion and taking everything into account Mayday puts the circulation of other magazines to shame imho - but then I would say that wouldn't I



Yes, you would.


----------



## Luther Blissett (Jan 27, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> Given that I want to see more of stuff like this, my role is not that of a troll;
> http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=9953293&postcount=101


So in effect you want to see more of your own posts, expounding your own view?
Masturbation.


----------



## Luther Blissett (Jan 27, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> It is a good job Mayday is a practical contribution to the class struggle then Butch. The postal worker article was excellent labour process material of a key class struggle. TO say otherwise is expedient and/or lies.



More masturbation.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 27, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> Give over, that's just bullshit and you know it is.


No, it's an opinion. 
All you're doing is rolling up the fact that a handful of posters have a personal antipathy for you with the fact that *more than* a handful of posters disagree with you, and concluding that *because* they disagree with you, they're part of some "ganging up" exercise.


> I quite like people who are open to discussing things, and that is certainly NOT the experience on U75.
> 'My way or the highway' is certainly the dominant characteristic of these ultra lefties, the example on this thread is a good one.


I haven't seen *any* manifestations of "my way or the highway" from anyone vaguely left, "ultra" or otherwise.


> There is no experimentation or exploration of what politics actually is, it is just the application of preconceived prejeudices, and it is going nowhere and it has gone nowhere for years. How long will the tired ultra lefties keep this up? Unfortunately if experience is anything to go on, way too long. Its a big all round FAIL.


Perhaps some of those posters are busy *doing* experimentation or exploration, rather than merely writing about it, and indulging in self-publicising, which Luther Blissett has accurately quantified as "masturbation".


> A few years ago the tired lefties came onto U75 and just do the same thing over and over again. Its very sad. That you have joined the lizards is even more sad.


Whereas you engage in "praxis through publishing" which, for you, turns out to be...doing the same thing over and over.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 27, 2010)

JimPage said:


> Court case tomorrow, incidentally. BNP asking for a 3 week adjournment, I understand



By which time they'll possibly be presenting the judge with a _fait accompli_ in the form of a new constitution.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 27, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> It is a good job Mayday is a practical contribution to the class struggle then Butch. The postal worker article was excellent labour process material of a key class struggle. TO say otherwise is expedient and/or lies.


I'm surprised you haven't suffered a dislocated arm, patting yourself on the back so often.


----------



## MrA (Jan 27, 2010)

Pickman's model said:


> from what you've said in this post it's because they're thick.



No I didn't. I wish there was a wanker smiley.



Pickman's model said:


> and you follow this up with utter bilge. eg: 'All they see or hear are the snippets in the media that give the impression that the BNP stand for British culture, British tradition and  Bristish jobs.'



And? You keep your blinkers on son shine, you clearly have all the answers.. 




Pickman's model said:


> but we've already established that every mainstream media outlet has described them as racists.



Not everyone believes it, why?




Pickman's model said:


> you've said before that if i could provide proof of your mendacity you'd be on your way. while i doubt you'll sling your hook, your claim about snippets in the media is a clear lie.



Cunt,


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 27, 2010)

Perhaps the reason why the bnp is gaining support (and maybe what mrA was trying to point out?) is also because not only are the media describing them as racists, but the whole idea of what being racist is is now being devalued. "political correctness gone mad" stories are reported (and not only by the right wing media, but because of the discussions they provoke etc) more than actual racist attacks. anti-racism is therefore becoming like just another dogma, which is why endlessly pointing out the bnp are racist isnt likely to have much effect on people who would vote bnp anyway.


----------



## MrA (Jan 27, 2010)

frogwoman said:


> Perhaps the reason why the bnp is gaining support (and maybe what mrA was trying to point out?) is also because not only are the media describing them as racists, but the whole idea of what being racist is is now being devalued. "political correctness gone mad" stories are reported (and not only by the right wing media, but because of the discussions they provoke etc) more than actual racist attacks. anti-racism is therefore becoming like just another dogma, which is why endlessly pointing out the bnp are racist isnt likely to have much effect on people who would vote bnp anyway.



Thanks


----------



## JimW (Jan 27, 2010)

MrA said:


> No I didn't. I wish there was a wanker smiley...



Your wish is our command 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




it's the roll-eyes that makes it


----------



## MrA (Jan 27, 2010)

JimW said:


> Your wish is our command
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Only on the vinegar stroke....


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jan 27, 2010)

rioted said:


> Why not? It would generate a lot of posts. We could call someone a toucher next.


 I have no idea whether or not somebody did call butchers a fascist, and couldn't give a shit.  VP could give me a link, or admit they didn't, what would it matter?  Nothing! It's madness, the way the fuckers get all lathered up, about nothing.  But it's, sadly, funny, adding to, and stirring the madness. Once in a while.

Mr. A did however, make the cardinal sin.  He asked butchers question.  


ResistanceMP3;10183225]btw.  I agree.  Butcher's does know a great deal about fascism and has some ideas of how to fight it.  What's more they are very simple said:


> Sorry m8, it's secret.  I could tell you,,,,,,,,, but I'd have to kill you.


[/QUOTE]And whenever you do that he has three tactics.

1.  He ask's you a question back.
2.  He throws the most insane hissy fit, only worthy of a cartoon character.
3.  He pretends to fuck off, but lurks.

I'm gonna quit stirring on 25 pages. Bet Mr. A dont get an answer, because as has been said about butchers.





Zaskar said:


> You are such a moron.  Like some whiney bitch who gets his kicks from mithering on about efforts others make.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 27, 2010)

MrA said:


> No I didn't. I wish there was a wanker smiley.


you said "people who could be swayed to vote bnp wouldn't understand fascism". i don't know what else you meant by that other than they're thick. 

then you go on to spout more bollocks, such as 






			
				MrA said:
			
		

> Most don't know if the BNP are truly racist or facist because they have no exposure to BNP policies or their leadership histories.


 leaving aside the vast amount of ink spilled just a few months ago about nick griffin round the time he was elected to the european parliament, last year the vast majority of homes in the uk received party election communications from, among others, the bnp. in a few months time there will be a similar deluge of shite descending on people's doormats. on many occasions in recent years the bnp leadership's pasts have been mentioned in the mainstream media, for example arthur kemp's involvement in the assassination of sacp general secretary chris hani was reported in the guardian round may last year.

but you disregard this: you say that 





MrA]All they see or hear are the snippets in the media that give the impression that the BNP stand for British culture said:


> Just because the media brand the BNP racist it doesn't follow that people actually believe it or that it has the impact that it once had.


you're all over the bloody shop.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 27, 2010)

frogwoman said:


> Perhaps the reason why the bnp is gaining support (and maybe what mrA was trying to point out?) is also because not only are the media describing them as racists, but the whole idea of what being racist is is now being devalued. "political correctness gone mad" stories are reported (and not only by the right wing media, but because of the discussions they provoke etc) more than actual racist attacks. anti-racism is therefore becoming like just another dogma, which is why endlessly pointing out the bnp are racist isnt likely to have much effect on people who would vote bnp anyway.


while there is a case to be made for that, if you reread MrA's post about how people who could be swayed to vote bnp wouldn't understand fascism clearly differentiates between racism and fascism.

and if he means that people wouldn't understand racism, i submit he's wrong.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jan 27, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> No, it's an opinion.
> All you're doing is rolling up the fact that a handful of posters have a personal antipathy for you with the fact that *more than* a handful of posters disagree with you, and concluding that *because* they disagree with you, they're part of some "ganging up" exercise.
> 
> I haven't seen *any* manifestations of "my way or the highway" from anyone vaguely left, "ultra" or otherwise.
> ...



So forget all the nitpicking, what is the best stratergy.  I promise not to act like some whiney bitch who gets his kicks from mithering on about efforts others make. Zip! Not one word.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jan 27, 2010)

Pickman's model said:


> while there is a case to be made for that, if you reread MrA's post about how people who could be swayed to vote bnp wouldn't understand fascism clearly differentiates between racism and fascism.
> 
> and if he means that people wouldn't understand racism, i submit he's wrong.


Fucking hell.


----------



## MrA (Jan 28, 2010)

Pickman's model said:


> you said "people who could be swayed to vote bnp wouldn't understand fascism". i don't know what else you meant by that other than they're *thick*.




There's a cap and I would guess that it'd fit you.



Pickman's model said:


> then you go on to spout more bollocks, such as  leaving aside the vast amount of ink spilled just a few months ago about nick griffin round the time he was elected to the european parliament, last year the vast majority of homes in the uk received party election communications from, among others, the bnp. in a few months time there will be a similar deluge of shite descending on people's doormats. on many occasions in recent years the bnp leadership's pasts have been mentioned in the mainstream media, for example arthur kemp's involvement in the assassination of sacp general secretary chris hani was reported in the guardian round may last year.



Go into Stoke or Oldham, areas I have worked in and engage people who would consider voting BNP and why? Ask if they *believe *that the BNP are truly a racist party, and then ask them for a definition of fascism. Ask them about media coverage of the BNP and why they *still* believe that the BNP are not a racist party. These people are middle to lower middle class btw.

But as I suspect you are bogged down in ideology, stuck up your own jacksie and you're far removed from reality. 

I have yet to see you offer anything other than criticism and blather. Put something on the table or are you just full of wind. I don't mind having my postion kick to shreds but lets see an alternative, something that is frustratingly lacking in some quarters.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 28, 2010)

MrA said:


> There's a cap and I would guess that it'd fit you.


i'd be interested to see in which of my posts you thought i said that the bnp constitution and manifesto were at the same time racist and fascist and not racist and not fascist. but i'm not surprised you haven't shared your discovery with the rest of us because it doesn't exist. that's stupidity, claiming something exists which doesn't.




> Go into Stoke or Oldham, areas I have worked in and engage people who would consider voting BNP and why? Ask if they *believe *that the BNP are truly a racist party, and then ask them for a definition of fascism. Ask them about media coverage of the BNP and why they *still* believe that the BNP are not a racist party. These people are middle to lower middle class btw.


oh - my - god - middle class people can be thick as pigshit  - hold the front page for MrA's astonishing discovery 

however, this is what's knownn as 'shifting the goalposts', which often happens when someone's entire argument is built not even on sand but on shit. after all, just a minute ago you were claiming that - apparently objectively - 






			
				MrA said:
			
		

> All they see or hear are the snippets in the media that give the impression that the BNP stand for British culture, British tradition and Bristish jobs.


, that is that the media gives the bnp a free ride without bringing up the racism and fascism inherent in their beliefs. that the media are either 'useful idiots' or colluding in presenting a positive image of the bnp.

which is utter fucking deluded nonsense. it's laughable. it's the sort of thing which would be expected from bloody no-planers. 

you say you don't mind having your 'position' kicked to shreds. but it can't be done, because you have no position, just a load of pisspoor contradictory platitudes.

the only alternative to your 'position' seems to me to be reality, in which the media aren't lined up behind the bnp. if you knew anything about the history of fascism, whether within the history of this country or italy or germany, you'd know that fascism has frequently been particularly attractive to elements of the middle and lower-middle classes, so it's no great shock to me to find that in some parts of the uk the same thing's true today.

your posts are, as the bard put it, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.


----------



## Boppity (Jan 28, 2010)

MrA is right about the average person not understanding what fascism is. It's nothing to do with being thick, many people are just startlingly apathetic when it comes to politics. To some people voting for the BNP it probably wouldn't even be a consideration.

Even when the BNP are being depicted as racist in the media, they are given a platform to speak. 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ed-defends-shambolic-Question-Time-debut.html

This article, for example. Though it's not pro-BNP by any stretch it's a platform by which the BNP are able to spread their message regardless. 



> Mr Griffin, 50, had refused to return to London - the location for last night's Question Time - declaring it was 'no longer part of Britain.'
> 
> 'There is not much support for me there because the place is dominated by ethnic minorities,' he said.
> 
> ...


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 28, 2010)

which is a different question again. 

but MrA can't have it both ways. he can't say that the media give a positive impression of the bnp while saying that although the media frequently mention the bnp's racism people don't believe it. the both can't be true.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 28, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> So forget all the nitpicking, what is the best stratergy.  I promise not to act like some whiney bitch who gets his kicks from mithering on about efforts others make. Zip! Not one word.



First you need to understand what strategy is and means, and too many political organisations, even the mainstream ones either don't know or have forgotten.
Strategy means looking at what you're facing and assessing which parts of your enemy's forces or ideology can be attacked and where so as to cause most damage, and then fighting your campaign, for which you need:
Tactics. Where strategy is your overarching plan, tactics are the plans you deploy to fight specific instances of contact. You tailor your tactics to the specifics.

So, in my opinion, strategy specifically aimed at insuring that the BNP have a hard or impossible job capitalising on any public sentiment leaning their way due to current structural and social issues, would centre around tackling those structural and social issues that can be dealt with at a grass-roots level, rebutting propaganda with fact "on the doorsteps", and keeping a momentum that doesn't just encompass a fortnightly or monthly protest in the town centre. We're talking hard work by the community for the community, to generate a result by the community for the community.
With regard to issues that can't be dealt with at community level, then concerted community pressure on local government can often do wonders once the local government establishment get over trying to "monster" you for daring to try to exercise *actual* community power rather than just a facsimile of it.

As for tactics, you deploy what you have to hand that bet fits the circumstances you encounter. If that means "shadowing" BNP canvassers and then canvassing wherever they canvass, then you do that. If it means digging into the background of your local BNP members, you do that and make sure that  your local and regional media are aware. If it means "engineering" a confrontation, then you do that.


----------



## Ibn Khaldoun (Jan 28, 2010)

frogwoman said:


> Perhaps the reason why the bnp is gaining support (and maybe what mrA was trying to point out?) is also because not only are the media describing them as racists, but the whole idea of what being racist is is now being devalued. "political correctness gone mad" stories are reported (and not only by the right wing media, but because of the discussions they provoke etc) more than actual racist attacks. anti-racism is therefore becoming like just another dogma, which is why endlessly pointing out the bnp are racist isnt likely to have much effect on people who would vote bnp anyway.



Although they certainly are racist, and so are most of their voters habitual racists, I don't think their success/popularity is fundamentally driven by racism. It's the rejection of pluralism (not only as a general phenomenon, such as banning everything, which is everywhere but) as represented by multiculturalism _per se_ - because it is not really inclusive, expressions of racism can logically follow that, so can religious fundamentalism, for that matter. That is what has allowed racism to be revived as a political actor. This also extends well beyond the BNP.


----------



## Boppity (Jan 28, 2010)

Pickman's model said:


> which is a different question again.
> 
> but MrA can't have it both ways. *he can't say that the media give a positive impression of the bnp *while saying that although the media frequently mention the bnp's racism people don't believe it. the both can't be true.



He didn't say the media gave a positive impression of the BNP, he said that people form their impressions (that the BNP is all about patriotism or what have you) based on snippets from the media. All that needs to happen for this is that the BNP be given a platform by the media to spew their bile and spin it as justified, which they are.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jan 28, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> First you need to understand what strategy is and means, and too many political organisations, even the mainstream ones either don't know or have forgotten.
> Strategy means looking at what you're facing and assessing which parts of your enemy's forces or ideology can be attacked and where so as to cause most damage, and then fighting your campaign, for which you need:
> Tactics. Where strategy is your overarching plan, tactics are the plans you deploy to fight specific instances of contact. You tailor your tactics to the specifics.
> 
> ...


There you go Mr. A.

Zip, throw key away.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 28, 2010)

Bippitybop said:


> He didn't say the media gave a positive impression of the BNP, he said that people form their impressions (that the BNP is all about patriotism or what have you) based on snippets from the media. All that needs to happen for this is that the BNP be given a platform by the media to spew their bile and spin it as justified, which they are.



what he actually said is:






			
				MrA said:
			
		

> All they see or hear are the snippets in the media that give the impression that the BNP stand for British culture, British tradition and Bristish jobs.


produce some of these snippets and the articles from which they're taken so we may judge.


----------



## JimPage (Jan 28, 2010)

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...hance-to-scrap-whitesonly-policy-1882127.html

As far as i can see, this will mean a ban on the BNP as their policy aims are against the law- not just their mmebership- but what they stand for

Listened to Griffins response on Simon Darby blog- and Griffin for all intents and purposes forsees a ban and de-registration of the BNP if they dont drop their racist politics


----------



## Boppity (Jan 28, 2010)

Pickman's model said:


> what he actually said is:
> produce some of these snippets and the articles from which they're taken so we may judge.



How is MrA in any way implying that the media give a _positive_ impression of the BNP? 

The BNP say that they are all about protecting British interests and that they are not racist and the media provides them with a platform on which to say this. This can be seen in the Daily Mail article above, despite the fact that the article itself is uncomplimentary.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 28, 2010)

Luther Blissett said:


> So in effect you want to see more of your own posts, expounding your own view?
> Masturbation.



No tit head, I was alluding to solid class struggle posts which you lot FAIL to provide.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 28, 2010)

Luther Blissett said:


> Three *is* better that one.



Thats a wierd comment and ununderstandable.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 28, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> I'm surprised you haven't suffered a dislocated arm, patting yourself on the back so often.



That's because Labour process is vital to Marxism, without it there is no purchase on the scale or nature of issues in particular industries.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 28, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> No, it's an opinion.
> All you're doing is rolling up the fact that a handful of posters have a personal antipathy for you with the fact that *more than* a handful of posters disagree with you, and concluding that *because* they disagree with you, they're part of some "ganging up" exercise.



No, I know the political allegiances of those dupes/dopes (i can't make up my mind which) and it is clear what has happened, the 'ganging up' is always the pathetic usual suspects. This thread carries a clear example of it too.


----------



## MrA (Jan 29, 2010)

Pickman's model said:


> you said "people who could be swayed to vote bnp wouldn't understand fascism". i don't know what else you meant by that other than they're thick.



If you believe that people who don't understand Fascism are thick then that's your premise not mine.  Not all people will know it's history or modern context.





> then you go on to spout more bollocks, such as  leaving aside the vast amount of ink spilled just a few months ago about nick griffin round the time he was elected to the european parliament, last year the vast majority of homes in the uk received party election communications from, among others, the bnp. in a few months time there will be a similar deluge of shite descending on people's doormats. on many occasions in recent years the bnp leadership's pasts have been mentioned in the mainstream media, for example arthur kemp's involvement in the assassination of sacp general secretary chris hani was reported in the guardian round may last year.



How many people would know who Arthur Kemp is today?  Lets look at  this 
_
Glenis Willmott said fellow MEP Mr Griffin was trying to "*stir up racial hatred"* in his comments, made on social media websites on Thursday._

Yet this article does not quote the BNP making a racial attack on Hatians, only a lack of compassion followed by examples of the BNP wanting to look after _*British*_ people first, not white British, just British.

_Mr Griffin, MEP for North West England, responded with another Twitter post, saying: "Individuals should give whatever they feel appropriate, but Britain is bankrupt. Fifty thousands pensioners will die... of cold this winter._

Can't _*you*_ see the _*impression *_that this statement makes as it is reported? Pick out an obvious racist agenda from that news article, I use the word obvious with regard to people who wouldn't have read the BNP manifesto or constitution.


----------



## MrA (Jan 29, 2010)

Pickman's model said:


> oh - my - god - middle class people can be *thick as pigshit*  - hold the front page for MrA's astonishing discovery



Your words not mine (again). Uniformed or uninterested would be a better description.  You still haven't answered two questions that I have repeatedly asked you,

1. What is your opinion on tackling the BNP?
2. Why are people even condsidering voting for the BNP if they KNOW they are a racist party and the media portray them as such? 

All the rest is you attacking context, construction and opinion, you've done little esle but try and score points instead of making one.


----------



## MrA (Jan 29, 2010)

Pickman's model said:


> what he actually said isroduce some of these snippets and the articles from which they're taken so we may judge.



And where is the word _*positive *_impression, stop playing the semantics game, it's boring and pathetic....



MrA said:


> But as I suspect you are bogged down in ideology, stuck up your own jacksie and you're far removed from reality.
> 
> I have yet to see you offer anything other than criticism and blather. Put something on the table or are you just full of wind. I don't mind having my postion kick to shreds but lets see an alternative, something that is frustratingly lacking in some quarters.



Still waiting......


----------



## Zaskar (Jan 29, 2010)

I wish some people who appear or claim to be anti fa would join the bnp.  Then I could hate them with a clear conscience.

Pickman's model is clearly treading on Butchers apron strings.

Pickman - you are wrong in many ways and appear to need to shut up as you look silly.

Pickman and his idiot friends have been harassing me on here for ages - harassing me on a thread where I am fucking rinsing the bnp. 

At the risk of blowing my own trumpet - I do the right ting - i get death threats - I do the right thing - I get more - he fucking whines on when i say - a senior bnp activist has stopped making bnp videos - he has been excommunicated from the bnp - and still he and his pals whinny on - shut up if you cant help.

It's scary stuff - so just get a grip.

Please sub my ad free channel to show support - otherwise - fuck off  ;-)

http://www.youtube.com/user/RogerTheBNPandMe


----------



## Zaskar (Jan 29, 2010)

I just read some of this thread - tragic.
Big up to the contributors who do appear to talk sense and how odd that many just appear to post here as a sort of hobby  - trying to look all celver and grammer school - idiots.

ba / pm / vp - and those morons arguing about some toilet paper lefty rags - oh lols.

So much 'judaen peoples front' nonsense really isint it ?  Yea crap gag for crap people.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 29, 2010)

Zaskar said:


> I just read some of this thread - tragic.
> Big up to the contributors who do appear to talk sense and how odd that many just appear to post here as a sort of hobby  - trying to look all celver and grammer school - idiots.
> 
> ba / pm / vp - and those morons arguing about some toilet paper lefty rags - oh lols.
> ...



Yawn. Zaskar has a dig at people who called him a stool pigeon on another thread. How unsurprising.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 29, 2010)

Zaskar said:


> I wish some people who appear or claim to be anti fa would join the bnp.  Then I could hate them with a clear conscience.


A wish that illustrates just what order of cunt you must be.


> Pickman's model is clearly treading on Butchers apron strings.
> 
> Pickman - you are wrong in many ways and appear to need to shut up as you look silly.
> 
> Pickman and his idiot friends have been harassing me on here for ages - harassing me on a thread where I am fucking rinsing the bnp.


Rinsing?
You're flattering yourself.


> At the risk of blowing my own trumpet - I do the right ting - i get death threats - I do the right thing - I get more - he fucking whines on when i say - a senior bnp activist has stopped making bnp videos - he has been excommunicated from the bnp - and still he and his pals whinny on - shut up if you cant help.
> 
> It's scary stuff - so just get a grip.
> 
> ...



Pathetic.
Anyone reading the thread you refer to will see that hardly anyone knocks your current actions (except for the way you constantly self-publicise and big yourself up. "at the risk of blowing my own trumpet"? You're having a laugh! It's what you do best!), we took you to task for being a grass, a stool pigeon, the second-lowest form of life after a scab.

Want me to link to the thread so that people reading your _spiel_ can decide for themselves, Mr De Mille?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 29, 2010)

MrA said:


> If you believe that people who don't understand Fascism are thick then that's your premise not mine.  Not all people will know it's history or modern context.


"people who could be swayed to vote bnp wouldn't understand fascism" 

you're saying that none of the people who would think about voting bnp - and don't forget that you're talking about many thousands of people - would, according to you understand, fascism. you can't make such a sweeping statement and expect people to meekly ignore it. if you're not saying they're thick, you're saying they're ignorant, and that's equally unsustainable.



> How many people would know who Arthur Kemp is today?


or lee barnes or mark collett or paul golding or whoever. the bnp leadership is, in my view, not simply nick griffin but the inner circle he has assembled around him, people like arthur kemp, lambertus nieuwhof, lance stewart, simon darby. but i suppose by leadership you've a rather more blinkered position, thinking just of griffin. if someone talked about the labour leadership they wouldn't mean simply gordon brown. 





> Lets look at  this
> _
> Glenis Willmott said fellow MEP Mr Griffin was trying to "*stir up racial hatred"* in his comments, made on social media websites on Thursday._
> 
> ...


yes i can see the impression that makes and it's clear that willmott hasn't thought through what she's saying. the labour party haven't a fucking clue how to deal with the bnp and so they come out with crap like the stuff in the article.


MrA]And where is the word positive impression said:


> All they see or hear are the snippets in the media that give the impression that the BNP stand for British culture, British tradition and  Bristish jobs. How many would think that was a bad platform to stand on?


'positive impression' is a paraphrase of what you were saying here.

i don't have a strategy which would work under any and all circumstances to defeat the bnp which i would put up for muppets to gawp at. i believe that taking elements of the old afa strategy would certainly be in any proposal i'd put forwards, while also taking into account the current circumstances on the ground. the fact of the matter is that there is a great deal in the bnp platform which would not look out of place in a traditional socialist manifesto. it is that i believe which attracts many people who vote bnp. it is the work that many bnp units put in on the ground, be it helping the rspca or clearing snow or acting like good members of a community which helps substantiate their moderate image. and you're not going to convince many people of the reality of the bnp's programme if you say to them they're too thick or ignorant of fascism.


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## Pickman's model (Jan 29, 2010)

Zaskar said:


> I wish some people who appear or claim to be anti fa would join the bnp.  Then I could hate them with a clear conscience.


out of curiosity, how many people out of antifa do you know who've grassed people to the police? i can hate you with a clear conscience because what you've done goes rather beyond the pale for anyone who may lay claim to working for a better society.


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## The Black Hand (Jan 29, 2010)

Pickman's model said:


> which is a different question again.
> 
> but MrA can't have it both ways. he can't say that the media give a positive impression of the bnp while saying that although the media frequently mention the bnp's racism people don't believe it. the both can't be true.



I do not see why not Pickman, this is a particular example of black and white thinking by you i feel, simplistic yes/no. There is nothing to be gained by 'yes or no' thinking, which belonged to the 20th century if it belonged at all, its simply too diverse these days for that to be of _*any*_ use.

In the real world the media is comprised of many different elements, the media do give a positive image of the BNP sometimes (even by accident/default). The media also does say the BNP are racist sometimes, and given that there IS a degree of scepticism in the population with regard to truth and the media, I do not see why it shouldn't apply in this case. So, in totality both trends are definately present, their relative strength is what should be discussed and evidence looked for.

It is the totality of the pluralist and diverse media that is also its strength, and that is not to say anything about the BNP in this particular instance.


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## Pickman's model (Jan 29, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> I do not see why not Pickman, this is a particular example of black and white thinking by you i feel, simplistic yes/no. There is nothing to be gained by 'yes or no' thinking, which belonged to the 20th century if it belonged at all, its simply too diverse these days for that to be of _*any*_ use.
> 
> In the real world the media is comprised of many different elements, the media do give a positive image of the BNP sometimes (even by accident/default). The media also does say the BNP are racist sometimes, and given that there IS a degree of scepticism in the population with regard to truth and the media, I do not see why it shouldn't apply in this case. So, in totality both trends are definately present, their relative strength is what should be discussed and evidence looked for.
> 
> It is the totality of the pluralist and diverse media that is also its strength, and that is not to say anything about the BNP in this particular instance.


so what you're saying is that 'the media', which (as i've said above) is diverse, rarely give a positive image of the bnp: which shows a surprising unanimity among the various print and broadcast media.


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## audiotech (Jan 30, 2010)

Appears to be some disgruntled former BNP members here?

exbnpbringthetruth.blogspot.com/

Link broken.


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## butchersapron (Jan 30, 2010)

Come on mate, that's blatant. That's just the usual suspects trying to make it look like Griffin has ran out of road and that the parties disintegrating in the hope that this will become a self-fullfilling prophecy - just this time making it look like it's internal rather than it being LUAF or Stalingrad types.These things pop up every few months. And it's the same old stories every single time.


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## audiotech (Jan 30, 2010)

I'm not sure of that, but I take your point.


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## The Black Hand (Jan 30, 2010)

Pickman's model said:


> so what you're saying is that 'the media', which (as i've said above) is diverse, rarely give a positive image of the bnp: which shows a surprising unanimity among the various print and broadcast media.



No. See this "the media do give a positive image of the BNP sometimes (even by accident/default)" from that post. Butchers has said the same thing regarding the criminal records not putting people off cos they have records too.


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## Pickman's model (Jan 30, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> No. See this "the media do give a positive image of the BNP sometimes (even by accident/default)" from that post.


yes, so 






			
				Pickman's model said:
			
		

> what you're saying is that 'the media', which (as i've said above) is diverse, rarely give a positive image of the bnp: which shows a surprising unanimity among the various print and broadcast media.


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## The Black Hand (Jan 31, 2010)

Pickman's model said:


> yes, so



I am not sure that your pov of the Neo liberal bourgeois press is useful, wtf did you expect?


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## Pickman's model (Jan 31, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> I am not sure that your pov of the Neo liberal bourgeois press is useful, wtf did you expect?



a better effort from you.



something along the lines of what you posted


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## goldenecitrone (Jan 31, 2010)

Zaskar said:


> I just read some of this thread - tragic.
> Big up to the contributors who do appear to talk sense and how odd that many just appear to post here as a sort of hobby  - trying to look all celver and grammer school - idiots.



It's grammar school, actually. But I would know that, being all clever.


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## butchersapron (Mar 10, 2010)

The proposed new constitution is at court right now, ruling expected on friday. Guardian report that it contains a (new?) proposal to have existing members visit prospective members. Isn't that shocking? EHRC contend this is to intimidate people.

Obviously impossible to judge without seeing the thing, but _if_ the EHRC's strongest ground of attack is:



> The party's new constitution, which has yet to be published, remains prejudicial because it requires members to agree to clauses including that they are "implacably opposed to the promotion, by any means, of the integration or assimilation" of the UK's indigenous white population, Allen said.
> 
> "It would be jolly difficult for a mixed-race person to join the BNP without effectively denying themselves," he argued.



then i think they're in trouble and it'll be accepted.


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## butchersapron (Mar 12, 2010)

I was wrong. Let's all  clap state inteference in political association.



> The British National party (BNP) has been barred from taking new members after a judge ruled today that its constitution could discriminate against non-white people.
> 
> Judge Paul Collins issued an injunction ordering the far-right group to comply with race equality laws, adding that "the membership list will have to be closed until then".




It's an injunction on new members, not a final ruling.


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Mar 12, 2010)

That story got some detailed analysis on the BBC, they even stopped proceedings on Five Live to bring us the initial news, so keen are they to follow the latest twists and turns of the nations fave anti-heros.

Cant remember the last time some legal minutia grabbed media attention for Plaid or The Greens. Ooops - not racist enough.

Butchers - I'll answer your CAP question elsewhere later.


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Mar 12, 2010)

Radio 4 have given the fuhrer a quote on the 2nd item in the 6 o clock news. They probably gave him a soundclip too, though I didnt carry on listening. He'll be delighted. Thanks Aunty, the election results are on the up and I'm sure the thugs and fascists are more than grateful for the attention.


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Mar 12, 2010)

The last time UKIP hit the headlines was when their new loon leader called for the burka to be banned. They have learned that racism gets the goods with the media too.


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Mar 12, 2010)

Fascism is top of the Indie website. 2nd on The Guardian.

These 2 papers happen to be the only ones (apart from the MS I dare say) whose BNP voter stats among readers are "statistically negligent", but it's all grist to the mill on the news stand I suppose.


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## Larry O'Hara (Nov 18, 2012)

The Black Hand said:


> What I am deeply unhappy with is the formulation encouraged By Larry O'Hara/ Butchers that takes what the BNP says as worth repeating without critique. I do not agree with that 'all powerful' BNP policy and practice line because it does not accord with reality.


 
Just noticed this garbage: so far from the facts as to be beneath contempt.

If you know sod all about the BNP and are politically illiterate, that's your problem TBH.  Do not, however, use your ignorance as a reason to slur others.


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## TremulousTetra (Nov 19, 2012)

Larry O'Hara said:


> Just noticed this garbage: so far from the facts as to be beneath contempt.
> 
> If you know sod all about the BNP and are politically illiterate, that's your problem TBH. Do not, however, use your ignorance as a reason to slur others.


are you serious? didn't he make that post January 2010


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## Pickman's model (Nov 19, 2012)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> are you serious? didn't he make that post January 2010


i was just thinking, what i want to read is a load of auld nonsense posted by someone with the political nous of a discarded bus ticket. thank you, rmp3, for posting


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## Pickman's model (Nov 19, 2012)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> are you serious? didn't he make that post January 2010


but did you read the first four words of larry's post?


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## caoineadh7 (Nov 19, 2012)

The rise of the BNP was a result of the decline of a genuine left alternative combined with media driven hype about asylum seekers. As a reactionary party the BNP offers working class people nothing, I say that as a Republican anti fascist.

I believe the BNP is heavily contained and controlled by the secret state. I also believe Nick Griffin is most likely a Special branch tout. A conman whos main ideology is how much is in his bank account. The way to combat the BNP, EDL etc is through community politics, working class people taking back the power in their own communities.


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## TremulousTetra (Nov 22, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> but did you read the first four words of larry's post?


yes, and?


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## TremulousTetra (Nov 22, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> i was just thinking, what i want to read is a load of auld nonsense posted by someone with the political nous of a discarded bus ticket. thank you, rmp3, for posting


so good you quoted it twice.


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## TremulousTetra (Nov 22, 2012)

caoineadh7 said:


> The rise of the BNP was a result of the decline of a genuine left alternative combined with media driven hype about asylum seekers. As a reactionary party the BNP offers working class people nothing, I say that as a Republican anti fascist.
> 
> I believe the BNP is heavily contained and controlled by the secret state. I also believe Nick Griffin is most likely a Special branch tout. A conman whos main ideology is how much is in his bank account. The way to combat the BNP, EDL etc is through community politics, working class people taking back the power in their own communities.


Like?


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## Pickman's model (Nov 22, 2012)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> yes, and?


But did you understand them?


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## TremulousTetra (Nov 25, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> But did you understand them?


yes, and?​


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## Pickman's model (Nov 25, 2012)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> yes, and?​


Are you sure? You're telling porkies?


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## TremulousTetra (Dec 2, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> Are you sure? You're telling porkies?


Yes! No!


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## Pickman's model (Dec 2, 2012)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> Yes! No!


larry knew it was an auld post you daft twat


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## malatesta32 (Dec 4, 2012)

frm VNNazis telling us how it is in the good ole BNP!
griffin had to ask a date rape drug dealing pornographer and his prostitute girlfriend for permission first as they were funding London and paying for the Argentinian bisexual that wanted to kill British soldiers... It was the same prostitute that griffin molested and exposed himself to when she was giving him a lift back from Europe...  Along with big time party officials trying to rape children at the party conference. Party officials that are school teachers offering sex to school children and accessing porn in school.
Not to mention the total fucking freak that makes fuck films of his granny wife and sells them at bnp meeting.
Did I forget the drug dealer that films women shitting on him and plays the video on his phone at bnp meeting. Just some of the big time top ranking officials from the race mixing party


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## Spanky Longhorn (Dec 4, 2012)

big time top rankin' a reggae classic


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## frogwoman (Dec 4, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> frm VNNazis telling us how it is in the good ole BNP!
> griffin had to ask a date rape drug dealing pornographer and his prostitute girlfriend for permission first as they were funding London and paying for the Argentinian bisexual that wanted to kill British soldiers... It was the same prostitute that griffin molested and exposed himself to when she was giving him a lift back from Europe... Along with big time party officials trying to rape children at the party conference. Party officials that are school teachers offering sex to school children and accessing porn in school.
> Not to mention the total fucking freak that makes fuck films of his granny wife and sells them at bnp meeting.
> Did I forget the drug dealer that films women shitting on him and plays the video on his phone at bnp meeting. Just some of the big time top ranking officials from the race mixing party


 
vnn isn't exactly a paragon of sexual ethics either - the far right have always been full of this sort of thing and full of fash using it to get one over on their rivals


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## likesfish (Dec 4, 2012)

Can't imagine how they thought an argentine falklands walt was a suitable candidate for the bnp.
  They are laughable if they werent such a fucking nasty bunch of cunts


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## The39thStep (Dec 4, 2012)

I wouldn't believe anything on VNN


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## frogwoman (Dec 4, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> I wouldn't believe anything on VNN


 
exactly. VNN is a sewer and consists of people who have now been completely isolated even on the extreme right, oh, and spooks


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## TremulousTetra (Dec 4, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> larry knew it was an auld post you daft twat


NEVER SAID HE DIDN'T.   YOU THICK TWAT!


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## Pickman's model (Dec 4, 2012)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> NEVER SAID HE DIDN'T.   YOU THICK TWAT!


and there you have it: proof rmp3's a loon


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## Spanky Longhorn (Dec 5, 2012)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> NEVER SAID HE DIDN'T. YOU THICK TWAT!


 
CALM DOWN DEAR!


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## malatesta32 (Dec 5, 2012)

i dont believe much of VNN either but the following are pretty well documented: 

date rape drug dealing pornographer and his prostitute girlfriend ... It was the same prostitute that griffin molested and exposed himself to when she was giving him a lift back from Europe... Along with big time party officials trying to rape children at the party conference. Party officials that are school teachers offering sex to school children and accessing porn in school.... Not to mention the total fucking freak that makes fuck films of his granny wife and sells them at bnp meeting. Did I forget the drug dealer that films women shitting on him and plays the video on his phone at bnp meeting. ​and the wonder why so many people join for the 1 year and then disappear. own worst enemies! ​


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## TremulousTetra (Dec 5, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> and there you have it: proof rmp3's a loon


who ya talking to?


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## Pickman's model (Dec 5, 2012)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> who ya talking to?


you, you twat


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## TremulousTetra (Dec 5, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> you, you twat


Your a liar.


Pickman's model said:


> and there you have it: proof rmp3's a loon


 
Now, Larry responded to a post from nearly 3 YEARS AGO, to a person who barely ever posts upon a anymore, because of the constant sniping and  vendettas,  with a post that gave very little evidence that the post by black hand was indeed "garbage".  in that light,  "are you serious?"  seems a perfectly reasonable question.


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## Pickman's model (Dec 5, 2012)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> Your a liar.
> 
> 
> Now, Larry responded to a post from nearly 3 YEARS AGO, to a person who barely ever posts upon a anymore, because of the constant sniping and  vendettas,  with a post that gave very little evidence that the post by black hand was indeed "garbage".  in that light,  "are you serious?"  seems a perfectly reasonable question.


Blah blah blah


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## nino_savatte (Dec 6, 2012)

Zzzzzzz.


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## TremulousTetra (Dec 8, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> Blah blah blah


You could just put that in every post of yours, and no one would spot the difference you boring delusional fuckwit.


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## Larry O'Hara (Dec 8, 2012)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> Your a liar.
> 
> 
> Now, Larry responded to a post from nearly 3 YEARS AGO, to a person who barely ever posts upon a anymore, because of the constant sniping and vendettas, with a post that gave very little evidence that the post by black hand was indeed "garbage". in that light, "are you serious?" seems a perfectly reasonable question.


 
From an SWP member?  If so, hilarious.


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## Pickman's model (Dec 9, 2012)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> You could just put that in every post of yours, and no one would spot the difference you boring delusional fuckwit.


It took you days to come up with that riposte? Fuck off back to the drawing board.


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## TremulousTetra (Dec 9, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> It took you days to come up with that riposte? Fuck off back to the drawing board.


No you thick fuck. Dont come on here often cos of boring twats like you.


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## TremulousTetra (Dec 9, 2012)

Larry O'Hara said:


> From an SWP member? If so, hilarious.


No.
I'm glad to bring you some hilarity, it must be boring trudging through 3-year-old posts. ;p


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## Larry O'Hara (Dec 9, 2012)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> No.
> I'm glad to bring you some hilarity, it must be boring trudging through 3-year-old posts. ;p


 
Missing the point as usual: how I miss the dullards who inhabit the SWP (not)


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## Pickman's model (Dec 9, 2012)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> No you thick fuck. Dont come on here often cos of boring twats like you.


why don't you make everyone happy then and stop coming here?


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## TremulousTetra (Dec 9, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> why don't you make everyone happy then and stop coming here?


no one is forcing you to read/answer numpty.


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## TremulousTetra (Dec 9, 2012)

Larry O'Hara said:


> Missing the point as usual: how I miss the dullards who inhabit the SWP (not)


there was a point? lol


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## Pickman's model (Dec 9, 2012)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> no one is forcing you to read/answer numpty.


nor is anyone holding a gun to your head, more's the pity


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## TremulousTetra (Dec 10, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> nor is anyone holding a gun to your head, more's the pity


so shut the fuck up you turd muncher!


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## Pickman's model (Dec 10, 2012)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> so shut the fuck up you turd muncher!


It's disappointing but by no means unusual you've abandoned any pretence of having anything to add to this thread. You've shown scant inclination to contribute anything except potty-mouthed insults that would shame a man of half your inconsiderable intelligence.


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## TremulousTetra (Dec 10, 2012)

10/10. Genuinely made me spit out my Coffee with laughter.  Well done pickers!


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