# Racism in London



## Numbers (Dec 5, 2006)

Fucking sad innit.  It's a sad state of affairs to see the ammount of racism I see, in London (East) ffs.

It's rampant where I live.  I'd even go as far as to say that most people are racist where I live, from every side.

It's incredibly sad.  I could give you example after example after example of it on a daily basis, hourly even.  

Eastern European/Black & English make up the demograph where I live and every feckin group is as racist as the next.  bastards.

Tis a shame the world is filed with so much ignorance.

what's your area like?


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## Xanadu (Dec 5, 2006)

First openly racist person I've met in ages lives upstairs from me.  Apparently brown people like me are okay, but it's them there nigerians and east europeans she doesn't like.


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## Xanadu (Dec 5, 2006)

I've been lucky, in that I've not really experienced too much racism.  I've get bad vibes around south bermondsey though I'm not sure if thats just cos it's a scary area.


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## DG55 (Dec 5, 2006)

The only thing I've experienced in London is black men who seem to find it upsetting when a black girl goes out with a white guy. God knows.


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## Cowley (Dec 5, 2006)

I laugh when people say London isn't a racist place....there's plenty of racism rife in London in pretty much every area.  I know that's a very sweeping statement but I'm only giving you my opinion.

Trust me I've seen a hell of a lot of racism where I live in Brixton...I'm not talking about back in the 80's or 90's....I'm talking about this year.

I've heard Black on White Racism a few times this year....I recently saw a white guy racially abusing an asian guy telling him to go back to his country after he was trying to get off the bus. 

I even got called a "Niggar" myself after accidently stepping in front of this white guy on the bus earlier on this year...this was in full view of a lot of black folks on a crowded bus...


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## Numbers (Dec 5, 2006)

This morning I was getting the bus to the tube.  and the bus was packed without being overcrowded and people were squeezing in/on, cos it was raining n'all.

at 1 stop this young black schoolgirl got on, and behind her was 2 or 3 white folks.  and this cunt standing close to the door started staring her down cos the bus driver couldn't close the door.  so she was one of the last ones on, but was no-where near the door.  

but this cunt says to her, after staring at her for a good 20/30 seconds, he told her she'll have to get off cos there's too much people.

I couldn't believe it, I'm probably not describing vividly enough, but in all the years (18) I've been in London I've never seen anything as archaic and fucking ridiculous.

cunt.

I don't normally get involved these days with anything cos I don't need no jucking but I was so gobsmacked at his behaviour, and you really had to see the whole scene to feel like I did, it just came out and I said "shutttt upppp", he looked at me and said who "you saying to shut up" and I said "I'm tellin you to shut up you racist bastard, telling some young kid to get off the bus - why didn't you tell one of those guys to get off" whilst pointing at a cpl of white builders who were blocking the door.

he had to cheek to turn around and say, and I kid you not.  he said "we have first priority on buses, blacks are always last on the bus"

can you fucking believe that.    I wanted to smack him there and then.


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## phildwyer (Dec 5, 2006)

DG55 said:
			
		

> The only thing I've experienced in London is black men who seem to find it upsetting when a black girl goes out with a white guy. God knows.



When I used to walk around New York City holding hands with a black girl, several black men accused her of "walking with the devil."


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## DG55 (Dec 5, 2006)

tony1798 said:
			
		

> at 1 stop this young black schoolgirl got on, and behind her was 2 or 3 white folks.  and this cunt standing close to the door started staring her down cos the bus driver couldn't close the door.  so she was one of the last ones on, but was no-where near the door.
> 
> but this cunt says to her, after staring at her for a good 20/30 seconds, he told her she'll have to get off cos there's too much people.



Why does the colour of anyones skin have anything to do with this incident? Isnt it just three arsehole kids trying to boss people around? Why is it racist in any way?

You see this kind of thing pisses me off as-well as racism. When people just assume something is racial just because the two parties just 'happen' to have a different skin colour - it happens ALL the time. Its what put me off working in an enviroment with the public - you constantly get abused and accused of something 'racial' when your trying to do your job.

Everyone in London is fucking paranoid about racism, and it makes everything that much worse.




> When I used to walk around New York City holding hands with a black girl, several black men accused her of "walking with the devil."



Isnt just me then. Why does this happen? I can only assume its the same in middle-england BNP constituencies, with white girls and black guys. Is it only men who do this? Are they just jealous?


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## detective-boy (Dec 5, 2006)

phildwyer said:
			
		

> When I used to walk around New York City holding hands with a black girl, several black men accused her of "walking with the devil."


"Oh, Satan, do not tempt me so ..."


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## netbob (Dec 5, 2006)

On the upside there was a big old Love Music Hate Racism gig at Fabric last week:

http://www.lovemusichateracism.com/news/2006/12/03/fabric-fundraiser-report-pics/

twas a cracker (till nipsla trod on a broken bottle anyway)


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## Paulie Tandoori (Dec 5, 2006)

Can't quite believe you've gone off on one for no reason, but i have to say that from this bit of hackney, life is lovely and chilled. Rampant? Soz to hear if it is matey, but i wouldn't necessarily say its representative of anything more than a general intolerance that surrounds us all. Hope da noo job ain't setting ya orf on nihilistic states of mind, duuuuudddddeeee  

I'm not downplaying it at all i hope i.e the original pov of your thread. Just think lahndan might be a bit more tolerant than where I is spent the weekend, nahwatimean?


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## HackneyE9 (Dec 5, 2006)

Well, Hackney appears chilled on the surface but....my Turkish deli cornershop refer to black customers as 'monkeys'.


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## jæd (Dec 5, 2006)

phildwyer said:
			
		

> When I used to walk around New York City holding hands with a black girl, several black men accused her of "walking with the devil."



Nope, she was walking with a c*nt...


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## phildwyer (Dec 5, 2006)

jæd said:
			
		

> Nope, she was walking with a c*nt...



I bet you wish you could walk with a c*nt.


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## jæd (Dec 5, 2006)

phildwyer said:
			
		

> I bet you wish you could walk with a c*nt.



I can do one better than that...! At the moment I'm talking to one...! (And with that cutting repartee I will put Mr Dwyer back on ignore (ho...! ho...! I'm ignoring one now...!) and go to bed...


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## phildwyer (Dec 5, 2006)

jæd said:
			
		

> I can do one better than that...! At the moment I'm talking to one...! (And with that cutting repartee I will put Mr Dwyer back on ignore (ho...! ho...! I'm ignoring one now...!) and go to bed...



Where, we assume, you will be talking to a cock.


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## Numbers (Dec 6, 2006)

DG55 said:
			
		

> Why does the colour of anyones skin have anything to do with this incident? Isnt it just three arsehole kids trying to boss people around? Why is it racist in any way?
> 
> You see this kind of thing pisses me off as-well as racism. When people just assume something is racial just because the two parties just 'happen' to have a different skin colour - it happens ALL the time. Its what put me off working in an enviroment with the public - you constantly get abused and accused of something 'racial' when your trying to do your job.
> 
> ...


To start with, you can go fuck yourself.  It was drenched in racism, pure utter nasty racism.  it wasn't kids, it was a schoologirl and a grown man giving her jip.

almost 19 years I've lived in London, I'm irish, my wife is black - I know racism from paranoia.  

Think what you want, arsehole.

Paulie, we can only go on our own experiences, and I'm a shrewd individual, I know what goes on around me.


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## DG55 (Dec 6, 2006)

Yes yes.... You just 'know' racism. Like everyone else in London. What, were they all skin-eds? Dont tell me thats how you made your judgement. Why make an assumption at all?

Im not saying your overstepping the mark or anything, but it does happen alot and the flames can be fanned by anger to past experiences. How do you make such a bold assumption, without any racist comments even being said?


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## William of Walworth (Dec 6, 2006)

Here in Walworth, where I've lived for 15 years and where on one recent estimate 25 different languages are spoken, things don't on the *surface* of it look/sound/seem too bad at all.

I emphasise surface though, because I have witnessed enough moments -- not every day at all, but enough oocasions --- to know that there is racism, or at the least suspicion and low level hostility, not far from the surface, in a significant minority of  people (all groups).

Much more commonly suppressed and non overt though. We're not the happy-happy 'vibrant' fully integrated joyfully multicultural outgoing ultra friendly haven that some fantacists might think from superficial impressions of a visit to East Street. But most of the time most folks seem to jog along reasonably enough because they have to, we're a very mixed densely populated far from rich area.

If I was in tony's position I'm sure I'd witness more bad things than I do. As it is I'd file where I am under 'could be a lot worse', and certainly considerably better than plenty of smaller places outside London

And a damn sight better than a few pockets of Bermondsey/ Rotherhithe.


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## Treacle Toes (Dec 6, 2006)

DG55 said:
			
		

> Why does the colour of anyones skin have anything to do with this incident? Isnt it just three arsehole kids trying to boss people around? Why is it racist in any way?
> 
> You see this kind of thing pisses me off as-well as racism. When people just assume something is racial just because the two parties just 'happen' to have a different skin colour - it happens ALL the time. Its what put me off working in an enviroment with the public - you constantly get abused and accused of something 'racial' when your trying to do your job.
> 
> Everyone in London is fucking paranoid about racism, and it makes everything that much worse.


Did you read the end of Tony's post?
Seems to me he made a fair judgement of the situation.
Some of us can sniff a racist out at 10 paces you know, comes with experience.


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## Treacle Toes (Dec 6, 2006)

HackneyE9 said:
			
		

> Well, Hackney appears chilled on the surface but....my Turkish deli cornershop refer to black customers as 'monkeys'.



Maybe not let people know exactly where that is....it might not be forgotten.


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## Treacle Toes (Dec 6, 2006)

DG55 said:
			
		

> How do you make such a bold assumption, without any racist comments even being said?



sometimes, no words are necessary, some of us are very good 'readers' of others and have great intuition when it comes to these things, it comes with experience.

I do agree that it doesn't do race-relations any good by going around shouting 'racist' unnecessarily, but you deliberately didn't quote the end of Tony's post, why was that?

You were obviously disappointed that his instinct/take on the situation was right and are now asking questions that suggest he was wrong to make the assumptions he did...HE WAS RIGHT MATE, get over it.


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## Treacle Toes (Dec 6, 2006)

DG55 said:
			
		

> The only thing I've experienced in London is black men who seem to find it upsetting when a black girl goes out with a white guy. God knows.



Much like some 'white' men do not like to see white women with black men eh?

It's a macho thing, each group finding it demasculating etc....However, I do believe a lot of it has been provoked by the legacy of slavery/colonisation and ideas that are still rife in our society.


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## dtb (Dec 6, 2006)

I've seen more racism directed towards white people than blacks when living in south east london


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## Treacle Toes (Dec 6, 2006)

dtb said:
			
		

> I've seen more racism directed towards white people than blacks when living in south east london



From who? And when you say you've seen it, how does it manifest?


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## Dissident Junk (Dec 6, 2006)

Living in London over the last 12 years (I moved away about a year ago), I definately saw the rise of a kind of casual every-day general racism that did not seem very prevalent in 1994/5, and I saw it most amongst other minorities, I'm afraid.

Towards the end, it seemed to me that the only people that didn't have a problem with some other ethnicity or creed were university students. It is one of the reasons I decided to move in the end; I couldn't really cope with living in such an environment of bubbling animosity all the time.

Now, looking back, I think there are too many people living in London and it is putting too much pressure on the social and civic fabric. And I think this pressure is coming out in more noticeable racism in the streets.

Also I do think that immigration has brought racism with it. Not just in reaction to immigrants, but also in the attitudes of the immigrants themselves. 

One of the most racist people I ever met was an immigrant Turk: he disliked anyone who wasn't Turkish, and sneered at the English and 'what they were like' even though he didn't actually know any English people.


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## stevepinker (Dec 6, 2006)

I use to look after a lovely little mixed race girl, So her mum could learn IT skills 3 times a week 

As my house was full of snakes that would have made her a snack I use to take her shopping in Dalston to kill time

I use to get some horribly looks and was spat at twice by older black women, I was shocked how hostile some black people could be to a white man with a mixed race child 

In the end i changed to shopping in Angel, Islington because i couldn't bite my lip any longer

Maybe i was too bald and white


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## mashedmaryland (Dec 6, 2006)

most racist people i have come across are east europeans not saying they all are but in general they are very anti black and asian


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## dash (Dec 6, 2006)

Never been on the receiving end of anti-white racism in London ever. Nor have I heard or seen any evidence of anti-black racism where I live for years, not that that probably counts for much. (Other parts of town yes, but not where I live.)

From time to time I have heard English people slagging 'Pikeys' and 'the Islamics' amongst themselves, also Caribbeans slagging Africans.

But on the whole things seem to have improved since the 1970s and 1980s.


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## tbaldwin (Dec 6, 2006)

I dont know if hostility to people based on the colour of their skin is worse in london than anywhere else. I reckon outright white racism towards black and asian people is much less than in other parts of the country or how it was in London 20years ago. But London is still very segregated in terms of race and class.
And there is more and more racism towards white people often as a response to their privelled position.
There is also lots of hostility between different groups like Africans and West Indians,Asians,Eastern Europeans,Turks and Australians etc etc etc.


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## STFC (Dec 6, 2006)

Haven't seen any evidence of racism in Sydenham, having lived there for nearly two years. Pretty mixed area but no sign of any tension as far as I can tell.

Sometimes too much emphasis can be put on what is perceived to be 'racism'. Some people can be horrible bastards to others, regardless of ethinicity, but all too often people are too eager to cry 'racism'. Just a general observation, not a response to any specific incidents mentioned on this thread.


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## littlebabyjesus (Dec 6, 2006)

tbaldwin said:
			
		

> But London is still very segregated in terms of race and class.


I don't agree with that at all. London has many problems, but one of its strengths is that there are no ghettoes. 

Almost every area is mixed both racially and socio-economically. In many parts of London millionaires live opposite council estates, and there is no area with just one ethnic group, except maybe richville Hampstead or scaryville Eltham which are nearly all white. But these are exceptions.


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## Badger Kitten (Dec 6, 2006)

DG55 said:
			
		

> Yes yes.... You just 'know' racism. Like everyone else in London. What, were they all skin-eds? Dont tell me thats how you made your judgement. Why make an assumption at all?
> 
> Im not saying your overstepping the mark or anything, but it does happen alot and the flames can be fanned by anger to past experiences. How do you make such a bold assumption, without any racist comments even being said?




did you miss the part of the story where he quoted the man who spoke to the black school kid 
 


> he had to cheek to turn around and say, and I kid you not. he said "we have first priority on buses, blacks are always last on the bus"


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## STFC (Dec 6, 2006)

littlebabyjesus said:
			
		

> I don't agree with that at all. London has many problems, but one of its strengths is that there are no ghettoes.
> 
> Almost every area is mixed both racially and socio-economically. In many parts of London millionaires live opposite council estates, and there is no area with just one ethnic group, except maybe richville Hampstead or scaryville Eltham which are nearly all white. But these are exceptions.



Parts of East London are almost exclusively Bangladeshi.


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## Divisive Cotton (Dec 6, 2006)

There's a good post from William that says much of what I would.

It seems to me that the definition of success for multiculturalism is anything below a full blown riot.

At the same time that is a definite undercurrent of racism / segregation that is difficult to guage in quantative terms - other than the personal antidotes that posters above have expressed.

I think racism has got noticeable worse in recent years and that all started with the anti-asylum seeker issue about six or seven years ago.

This is mixed in with intense competition for housing and employment - a burden that, as always, rests heaviest on the poor.


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## littlebabyjesus (Dec 6, 2006)

STFC said:
			
		

> Parts of East London are almost exclusively Bangladeshi.


Yes, maybe that is the exception that could be described as a ghetto. But it is very much an exception.

Compare, for instance, with Paris, which is surrounded by huge suburban ghettoes of immigrants.


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## Numbers (Dec 6, 2006)

just to add, I'm a white 'skinhead' myself.  my wife is a black 'skinhead'.

whatever 'skinhead' means these days.   

I'm no wallflower, nor am I naive in anyway, and I choose my comments about race carefully. 

But I do know racism when I see it.  and where I live in East London is the MOST RACIST PLACE I'VE EVER LIVED. fact.

you can try and break my reasoning down however much you want, but those who know me on here will also know I am not talking out of me arse and making rash judgements.

peace.


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## Spion (Dec 6, 2006)

Dissident Junk said:
			
		

> Living in London over the last 12 years (I moved away about a year ago), I definately saw the rise of a kind of casual every-day general racism <snip>



Blimey, how do you find West Yorks then? Racism seems much more prevalent here. I also lived in London for a long time until 2-3 years ago


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## Poi E (Dec 6, 2006)

dtb said:
			
		

> I've seen more racism directed towards white people than blacks when living in south east london



I'm a white fella. Seen/experienced none in New Cross in the five years I've been here.


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## GarfieldLeChat (Dec 6, 2006)

i was at a on eof my regular club nights where i take photos as part of the club last friday and one of the peopel int he club comes up to me and simply says you don't want to take photos in here there's no one famous here just a load of coons ... to which i said WHAT resiting the urge to smash the camer cross his face... you know jungle bunnies coons niggers ... at which point i tol dhim to leave then and there... you'd think that at one of the largest professional black nights in the city that you'd not get this type of bollocks but sadly it happens a lot and often where you least expect it... it was the blantentness of the comment which asstounded me that and why the hell would you go to a black club night and then complain about the cleintell seems like settign your self up for dissappointment... it fucked me off for about 2 hours afterwards though that and totally ruined what was in all other respects a reaaly good night...


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## Divisive Cotton (Dec 6, 2006)

Out of interest Tony, whereabouts in East London do you live?


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## Numbers (Dec 6, 2006)

DC, Canning Town. 

Garf', I agree, it was the blatantness of it all which threw me aswell.  I'm used to non-integration and peeps going about their own business, they can harbour whatever ill intent they want, but it takes an awful thick individual to be blatant about it.


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## BlackSpecs (Dec 6, 2006)

littlebabyjesus said:
			
		

> I don't agree with that at all. London has many problems, but one of its strengths is that there are no ghettoes.
> 
> Almost every area is mixed both racially and socio-economically. In many parts of London millionaires live opposite council estates, and there is no area with just one ethnic group, except maybe richville Hampstead or scaryville Eltham which are nearly all white. But these are exceptions.



Agree with that 100%! having moved to paris recently from London , i really notice the difference. In London the mix is all over the place and during a normal day one would come in contact with other races/skin-colours a thousand times without blinking. Here you "notice" , which is odd !!! London has always be a *champion* for integration and i don't think a few cunts on the bus should tarnish that reputation. It is only after i left the place that i realized that Londoners embrace "difference" and "uniqueness" with a passion!!

The situations people have come across are born out of frustration imo . i have taken buses and there is about 4 coloured youth with their mp3's playing music out loud and leaving their chicken-drums on the floor and people will go : see ! only THEY will act like that! Not knowingly both the kiddies and the person commenting will hurt the wonderful old lady a few seats down that worked all her live to get her family over from abroad and has contributed more to british life than most. It's about education on both sides.


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## tbaldwin (Dec 6, 2006)

tony1798 said:
			
		

> DC, Canning Town.
> 
> Garf', I agree, it was the blatantness of it all which threw me aswell.  I'm used to non-integration and peeps going about their own business, they can harbour whatever ill intent they want, but it takes an awful thick individual to be blatant about it.



A few close friends grew up in Canning Town....It always had a rep as a scarey place for Black and Asian people...Nowadays when ive been there the place has changed a lot. Newham used to be a typical inner london borough where different groups were more or less segregated on race lines.
I cant imagine its any worse than it was.


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## tbaldwin (Dec 6, 2006)

littlebabyjesus said:
			
		

> I don't agree with that at all. London has many problems, but one of its strengths is that there are no ghettoes.
> 
> Almost every area is mixed both racially and socio-economically. In many parts of London millionaires live opposite council estates, and there is no area with just one ethnic group, except maybe richville Hampstead or scaryville Eltham which are nearly all white. But these are exceptions.




Kind of missed my point...Yeah maybe the rich and poor live close by, but that doesnt mean everyone gets on fabbously darling...There is lots of simmering resentment against rich incomers.....Its just they dont always notice it....


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## Numbers (Dec 6, 2006)

tbaldwin said:
			
		

> A few close friends grew up in Canning Town....It always had a rep as a scarey place for Black and Asian people...Nowadays when ive been there the place has changed a lot. Newham used to be a typical inner london borough where different groups were more or less segregated on race lines.
> I cant imagine its any worse than it was.


I've only been in the place a cpl of years.

what's noticeable about the place is the demograph.  you have a lot of east European, a lot of east African and a lost of old school Eastenders.

it doesn't sit well together.  

Like I said in this thread already.  I see it from all angles.  And my wife and I receive it from all angles, but not in our face.  it's peoples actions, gestures and under the breath murmerings you notice.  

There's no interaction whatsoever.  none.  We lived in Tooting broadway for 4 years before moving here and there is/was a world of difference in how people integrate.  In CT it doesn't happen, yes people get on with things but there is no communication, no interaction and the place stinks of mistrust.

It's sad.  I've been in London from my teenage years and I'm now approaching 40, I've also lived north, south, east & west, incl' places like Feltham.

never in all those years and in all these areas I lived have I seen it the way I see it now.

The incident y/day was the worst I've seen in 1 way cos it was a 40/50 year old grown man directing his ignorance at a young girl.  

what DG55 doesn't realise with his flying off the handle comments about skinheads etc.. is that the builder looking blokes who got on after this girl, who this cunt didn't say a word to were I suspect polish and skinheads.  but they were tough looking fuckers, so he didn't say a word to them even tho' they were the ones blocking the door.

not only was he a racist, he was a coward too.  a man who is a racist coward is not a man.


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## GarfieldLeChat (Dec 6, 2006)

tony1798 said:
			
		

> DC, Canning Town.
> 
> Garf', I agree, it was the blatantness of it all which threw me aswell.  I'm used to non-integration and peeps going about their own business, they can harbour whatever ill intent they want, but it takes an awful thick individual to be blatant about it.


tbh i wasn't acutally preparred for the level of insensed rage which it provoked either i spent the next two hours flitting between rah i ought to have kicked you stupid fuckiing head in to how the fuck can anyone in this day and age whose under 60 still think tis is acceptable let alone think it permissable to voice those opinions...


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## Numbers (Dec 6, 2006)

Likewise mate.  I stopped 'getting involved' ages ago, cos I don't need to be stabbed or the like.

but I was shocked into response.


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## Yetman (Dec 6, 2006)

Spion said:
			
		

> Blimey, how do you find West Yorks then? Racism seems much more prevalent here. I also lived in London for a long time until 2-3 years ago



I thought the country was getting better ffs....when I was much younger people were racist as fuck, they'd throw around racist comments without thought, I remember people saying things like 'paki' in front of me when I was 6 years old, it was that accepted.

Now, I thought it was much different, I dont hear racist names thrown around any more and if someone does say something out of line, there's usually a load of people, whites included, ready to jump in and put them right.

Well, til I went to a wedding in Yorkshire last year 

It was out in the sticks and I was chatting to a few older blokes and when I was on about the people in the villages, one said 'we dont get the nig nogs around here', then his wife walked by and said 'and we've got the pitchforks ready if they ever do'........I was gobsmacked. I mean, how can a normal fucking person think like that? I just walked off  

But seriously I thought the country as a whole was over it, had grown up. Even children dont have such a low mentality ffs.


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## mashedmaryland (Dec 6, 2006)

littlebabyjesus said:
			
		

> I don't agree with that at all. London has many problems, but one of its strengths is that there are no ghettoes.
> 
> Almost every area is mixed both racially and socio-economically. In many parts of London millionaires live opposite council estates, and there is no area with just one ethnic group, except maybe richville Hampstead or scaryville Eltham which are nearly all white. But these are exceptions.



jesus ! have u ever been anywhere in London 



i feel like ralph mctell !! 

i could show a few places that would make u change your mind ! 

come to newham we may be all different colours but were all poor as fuck


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## littlebabyjesus (Dec 6, 2006)

mashedmaryland said:
			
		

> jesus ! have u ever been anywhere in London
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Alright, I accept that parts of the East End are different, but there are whole swathes of North, West and South London that are as I describe.


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## Numbers (Dec 6, 2006)

All of these places you mention LBJ may be mixed, but ime of London, every area, N, S, E & W are full of racism.

The East End is not alone, it's just ime that it is the worst.  Feltham was bad, but it was more 1 way.  where I am now, it's from all angles.


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## kyser_soze (Dec 6, 2006)

TBH most of the racism I've overheard in the streets, on buses etc has generally been between various Eastern Europeans about each other or 'the blacks' and between South Asians and Africans. I don't think I've heard white-on-black racism expressed that blatantly since I moved here in 1992.

However, it's worth bearing in mind that how 'integrated' someone is into multiculturalism varies wildly from place to place, and that no one should ever underestimate the role that 'tolerance' rather than 'acceptance' plays in London society in particular - the idea that people don't necessarily like each other but by an large will keep the peace so that everyone can get on with their lives without too much friction. Tolerance is a very different beast to acceptance and multiculturalism.


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## chieftain (Dec 6, 2006)

I was racially attacked (unprovoked in any way) in Hackney a couple of years ago (black on white) luckily an old rasta guy came and helped me out otherwise I think I was heading for a battering... it wasn't very nice and it made me extremely angry

I'd say racism is alive and well in the east end if you scratch the surface


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## mashedmaryland (Dec 6, 2006)

yes but what you go to remember is the ghettos of london are being pushed into the suburbs places like feltham harold hill harlesden etc etc are very poor you scratch the surface and you can still see the poverty in the estates around camden even though its one of the most desierable places to live in London (and west hampstead is a shit hole too )  

There are still plenty of front lines in London ! North South East and West 

Just out of interest have you always lived in London little baby jesus


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## littlebabyjesus (Dec 6, 2006)

tony1798 said:
			
		

> All of these places you mention LBJ may be mixed, but ime of London, every area, N, S, E & W are full of racism.


 And it's probably better here than most other parts of UK. Depressing.


----------



## Numbers (Dec 6, 2006)

In Canning Town you don't need to scratch any surface to see it.  Just walk around day to day and you'll see plenty of it.  trust me.


----------



## waverunner (Dec 6, 2006)

I've lived in various places in London over the past couple years, with Streatham being the most recent and current place. I'm happier here than anywhere else partly because I've seen/heard less overt racism and/or snobbish/prejudiced etc behaviour than in other parts of London. Streatham's not without it's problems by any means and of course there is still racism but it's much easier to bumble along here and simply feel that you belong just as much as everyone else because everyone is from everywhere iykwim?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 6, 2006)

kyser_soze said:
			
		

> Tolerance is a very different beast to acceptance and multiculturalism.



Good god man, I agree with you!  

I'd like to add that over the years I have seen much less open racism from white people towards black people, imo this is for two reasons....

1...They are a lot less ignorant, more tolerant and because the mixed communities they are living in, has meant their children are friends with, have relationships and kids with black people, it has blurred the lines somewhat. These experiences and everyday interactions have actually made it harder to air/have overtly racist views.

2...Over the years the Afro-Caribbean, African and Asian communities are a lot more established now and more often than not will fight back and not let them get away with it...the fear of these communities has increased.


----------



## Epicurus (Dec 6, 2006)

Is London worse than anywhere else in the UK?

I’ve only lived in London since being in the UK but visited a few other places.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 6, 2006)

mashedmaryland said:
			
		

> yes but what you go to remember is the ghettos of london are being pushed into the suburbs places like feltham harold hill harlesden etc etc are very poor you scratch the surface and you can still see the poverty in the estates around camden even though its one of the most desierable places to live in London (and west hampstead is a shit hole too )
> 
> There are still plenty of front lines in London ! North South East and West
> 
> Just out of interest have you always lived in London little baby jesus


Ghetto is a strong word. Name me one 'front line' in South London.
No I haven't always lived in London, but I have lived in North, NE, SE and SW.


----------



## mashedmaryland (Dec 6, 2006)

in south london ! come on where do you want to start have you ever been to parts of peckham bermondsey and thats just too 

brixton and clapham north may be all pretty now but you get it into the main estates look at fenwick estate for instance


----------



## mashedmaryland (Dec 6, 2006)

sorry i got carried away 

i ment to say look at the fenwick estate for instance


----------



## Numbers (Dec 6, 2006)

Depends on what you consider frontline.  is it drugs, poverty, robbery.

there are loads of parts of London with high stat's in these 3 things.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 6, 2006)

mashedmaryland said:
			
		

> in south london ! come on where do you want to start have you ever been to parts of peckham bermondsey and thats just too
> 
> brixton and clapham north may be all pretty now but you get it into the main estates look at fenwick estate for instance


I used to live in Peckham Rye and, for a decade, in nearby New Cross. There is no front line in Peckham, mate.


----------



## mashedmaryland (Dec 6, 2006)

then you dont know peckham ! sorry to say that but you dont


----------



## Divisive Cotton (Dec 6, 2006)

Canning Town is very notorious - so if you say it's the most racist place you've ever lived in then you're probably right!


----------



## goldenecitrone (Dec 6, 2006)

I really like Stoke Newington. White, black, Turkish, Asian, Jewish, and now loads of Poles all rubbing along together without much bother. Haven't really seen any racism here in the last five years.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 6, 2006)

mashedmaryland said:
			
		

> then you dont know peckham ! sorry to say that but you dont


Define front line for me please. As I understand it, it is a place past which you do not pass if you are the wrong colour or don't live in a place. I'm not just talking about places that are a bit of a dump.


----------



## Numbers (Dec 6, 2006)

littlebabyjesus said:
			
		

> Define front line for me please. As I understand it, it is a place past which you do not pass if you are the wrong colour or don't live in a place. I'm not just talking about places that are a bit of a dump.


You're understanding is wrong then.

Brixton is a frontline area, imo anyway.  But I as a white man can walk through there anytime night or day.  So frontline is not signified by that alone.

Frontline to me is somewhere unsafe (to a degree) where anything goes and it's in your face.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 6, 2006)

Sorry, T, but if Brixton is a frontline area, that makes the term so vague that it is useless.


----------



## Numbers (Dec 6, 2006)

littlebabyjesus said:
			
		

> Sorry, T, but if Brixton is a frontline area, that makes the term so vague that it is useless.


why so?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 6, 2006)

Because I don't think Brixton is exceptionally violent or agressive. You'd have to include New Cross and Deptford too on that score, and they really aren't that bad.


----------



## Numbers (Dec 6, 2006)

so what do you want, bloodshed on every corner cos of the colour of your skin etc.. to justfiy the tag frontline.

frontline traditionally is a zone of confrontation.  Brixton is a zone of confrontation, like many others.

maybe they aren't frontline like around the time of the riots, thank god for that.

but it is still a frontline area, paved with many many hazards.


----------



## GarfieldLeChat (Dec 6, 2006)

Epicurus said:
			
		

> Is London worse than anywhere else in the UK?
> 
> I’ve only lived in London since being in the UK but visited a few other places.


no indeed it's a sad indicative that london is in fact the pinical of the tollerence scale in the uk...


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 6, 2006)

@Mr Numbers. Ok, we're arguing over semantics I think. What I meant by frontline was somewhere that was 'no-go' for certain kinds of people. You are using the word differently.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 6, 2006)

littlebabyjesus said:
			
		

> Alright, I accept that parts of the East End are different, but there are whole swathes of North, West and South London that are as I describe.



Like Tooting f'rinstance?


----------



## GarfieldLeChat (Dec 6, 2006)

goldenecitrone said:
			
		

> I really like Stoke Newington. White, black, Turkish, Asian, Jewish, and now loads of Poles all rubbing along together without much bother. Haven't really seen any racism here in the last five years.


but... but... but... your the grand high wizard of the local kkk group ....

(Kentucky Khicken Krew) 

stokie has a villag ementality though and there is racism there i have often heard the phrase well you expect that from a black boy from the indians there and the level of jewish racism against the asians families there is quite bad too ...


----------



## GarfieldLeChat (Dec 6, 2006)

littlebabyjesus said:
			
		

> What I meant by frontline was somewhere that was 'no-go' for certain kinds of people.


that would make south london a front line as far as i'm concerned...  which it isn't blardy sarf lundun... <shakes fist> it's not real lundun...


----------



## f for fake (Dec 6, 2006)

*my time at uni*

When i was at uni i was going out with the sexest girl i have ever had the luck to shag. Im white, shes asian.

We got eyed by everyone, not just white bastards. But by asians and blacks. I am lucky enough not to give a fuck about skin colour, If i hate some one if because of who they are not the fucking skin colour. I have always found it funny how white girls slag of dark skinned people, yet go to the beach and cook there white skin to become darker. Or put tonns of fake tan on..

Racism is everywhere and the only way it will go is by people living in areas where it is mixed. 

heres to a better future,


----------



## BlackSpecs (Dec 6, 2006)

f for fake said:
			
		

> heres to a better future,



yup...lets make love until all new generations are grey! maybe then we can start worrying about important stuff !


----------



## Numbers (Dec 6, 2006)

f for fake said:
			
		

> Racism is everywhere and the only way it will go is by people living in areas where it is mixed.


emm... are u for real?

all areas in London are mixed, and all areas of London are racist.  by living in a mixed area doesn't guarantee resolution.

is that your point?


----------



## f for fake (Dec 6, 2006)

tony1798 said:
			
		

> emm... are u for real?
> 
> all areas in London are mixed, and all areas of London are racist.  by living in a mixed area doesn't guarantee resolution.
> 
> is that your point?



I live in an area of brum that is mostly white. Where i see a lot of white people being rasist to other people. What i ment if we lived in non white, black, eastern european areas then after a while, then may be, may be there would be less of it. I understand that this is an idear that may seem daft, ie just because people live in a mixed area does not mean people will mix. 

But we have to start somewhere.


----------



## STFC (Dec 6, 2006)

BlackSpecs said:
			
		

> yup...lets make love until all new generations are grey! maybe then we can start worrying about important stuff !



It'll never happen. However many people mix together, the vast majority will always instinctively stick to 'their own'.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 6, 2006)

STFC said:
			
		

> It'll never happen. However many people mix together, the vast majority will always instinctively stick to *'their own'.*



Well that may be true , but then to increasing amounts of people, *'their own'* would be/actually is *mixed*..... 


@ Blackspecs........................... mixing the races up doesn't make shades of grey....it actually makes shades of brown.


----------



## BlackSpecs (Dec 6, 2006)

Rutita1 said:
			
		

> Well that may be true , but then to increasing amounts of people, 'their own' would be mixed.....
> 
> 
> @ Blackspecs........................... mixing the races up doesn't make shades of grey....it actually makes shades of brown.



Beautiful !


----------



## tbaldwin (Dec 6, 2006)

goldenecitrone said:
			
		

> I really like Stoke Newington. White, black, Turkish, Asian, Jewish, and now loads of Poles all rubbing along together without much bother. Haven't really seen any racism here in the last five years.




A lot of white incomers would agree with you. Cost they live in a bubble and dont see all the trouble..
I wonder how many genuinelly local people you really know?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 6, 2006)

Call me a hippy if you like, but I think everyone is being way too pessimistic on this thread.  

I hope Mrs LBJ and I will have kids, and I hope that they will be able to be happy despite any prejudice they will encounter. There are plenty of good people in the world.


----------



## Numbers (Dec 6, 2006)

I'm certainly not pessimistic.  no chance, how often do you hear me have a moan like I have on this thread LBJ.  You and I are in very similar relationships, and I rise above it 99.9999999% of the time.  But by me not making a meal of it  doesn't make it any less rampant.


[quote[tbaldwin]A lot of white incomers would agree with you. Cost they live in a bubble and dont see all the trouble..
I wonder how many genuinelly local people you really know?[/quote]
spot on.. I had this conversation recently, 3 weeks ago in fact.  in the room were 3 of my best pals.  1 English, 1 Black, 1 Iranian and me Irish.  Our english pal, who is a great great pal was talking about how racism isn't as prevalent anymore... until we all shared our experiences, recent experiences too.  And he agreed, he doesn't see it nor is he aware of it, cos he's white english.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 6, 2006)

littlebabyjesus said:
			
		

> Call me a hippy if you like, but I think everyone is being way too pessimistic on this thread.
> 
> I hope Mrs LBJ and I will have kids, and I hope that they will be able to be happy despite any prejudice they will encounter. There are plenty of good people in the world.



 I'm not being pessamistic LBJ. 
When it comes to race relations and 'mixing' I am one of the most optimistic people I know.

This may have a lot to do with the fact I am mixed race myself, but equally it has as much to do with my experiences or culture and racism, from both Black people and White people.

I feel I am lucky to be in the position I am. I truly believe 'mixed race' people are priviledged to occupy the place they do in this world. I won't lie and say it isn't sometimes a burden, but it's worth it.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 6, 2006)

tony1798 said:
			
		

> I 1 English, 1 *Black*, 1 Iranian and me Irish.



Where is Mr Black from Tony, do you know?


----------



## tbaldwin (Dec 6, 2006)

tony1798 said:
			
		

> spot on.. I had this conversation recently, 3 weeks ago in fact.  in the room were 3 of my best pals.  1 English, 1 Black, 1 Iranian and me Irish.  Our english pal, who is a great great pal was talking about how racism isn't as prevalent anymore... until we all shared our experiences, recent experiences too.  And he agreed, he doesn't see it nor is he aware of it, cos he's white english.



tony i think its not just about race a lot of middle class incomers really have no idea of what goes on in the areas they have moved into..They go to different places and hardly mix with local people.


----------



## Belushi (Dec 6, 2006)

> Our english pal, who is a great great pal was talking about how racism isn't as prevalent anymore... until we all shared our experiences, recent experiences too. And he agreed, he doesn't see it nor is he aware of it, cos he's white english.



Yeah, Indian pal of mine got turned away from a pub in Bognor recently because of his race


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 6, 2006)

Rutita1 said:
			
		

> I'm not being pessamistic LBJ.
> When it comes to race relations and 'mixing' I am one of the most optimistic people I know.
> 
> This may have a lot to do with the fact I am mixed race myself, but equally it has as much to do with my experiences or culture and racism, from both Black people and White people.
> ...


----------



## Numbers (Dec 6, 2006)

Rutita1 said:
			
		

> I'm not being pessamistic LBJ.
> When it comes to race relations and 'mixing' I am one of the most optimistic people I know.
> 
> This may have a lot to do with the fact I am mixed race myself, but equally it has as much to do with my experiences or culture and racism, from both Black people and White people.
> ...


top post.

I feel the same, i.e. privileged.

as for where me pal is from, it's Dominica.  but he lives in West 'am.


----------



## Numbers (Dec 6, 2006)

Belushi said:
			
		

> Yeah, Indian pal of mine got turned away from a pub in Bognor recently because of his race


mrs1798 was chased out of a pub with her 3 sisters in Exeter.  it was a few years ago, but it sounds like it was a frightening experience for them.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 6, 2006)

tony1798 said:
			
		

> top post.
> 
> I feel the same, i.e. privileged.
> 
> as for where me pal is from, it's Dominica.  but he lives in West 'am.



I asked because you refered to everyone else that was there by their nationality and him by his skin colour, even though you knew where he is from...

I have done it myself, so i'm not having a go,  but it annoys me because I know why we do it....

Just a thought like.


----------



## STFC (Dec 6, 2006)

Belushi said:
			
		

> Yeah, Indian pal of mine got turned away from a pub in Bognor recently because of his race



Really? They just said "you can't come in here because you're Indian/Asian" or something similar? Blimey.


----------



## Griff (Dec 6, 2006)

Where I grew up (Leytonstone) in Waltham Forest, I always found it to be the most tolerent and accepting places in East London. 

That was a long time though, and it sounds as if times have changed in London.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 6, 2006)

STFC said:
			
		

> Really? They just said "you can't come in here because you're Indian/Asian" or something similar? Blimey.



Playing dumb again? Why bother?


----------



## Numbers (Dec 6, 2006)

Rutita1 said:
			
		

> I asked because you refered to everyone else that was there by their nationality and him by his skin colour, even though you knew where he is from...
> 
> I have done it myself, so i'm not having a go but it annoys me because I know why we do it....
> 
> Just a thought like.


Never thought of it like that rutita1.  I was gonna say persian, but Iranian was shorter.  I was trying to group character build ya see.

and btw, aint you mixed heritage, not mixed race... aint that the pc way to say it these days.


----------



## Belushi (Dec 6, 2006)

STFC said:
			
		

> Really? They just said "you can't come in here because you're Indian/Asian" or something similar? Blimey.



No, it was a little more subtle than that but everyone there (the rest of the group were white) understood what was happening.

Years ago my brother and his black girlfriend got refused service at our local in Woolwich - they suddenly decided that one night it was over 25s only.


----------



## STFC (Dec 6, 2006)

Rutita1 said:
			
		

> Playing dumb again? Why bother?



Eh? Don't get you, sorry.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 6, 2006)

tony1798 said:
			
		

> Never thought of it like that rutita1.  I was gonna say persian, but Iranian was shorter.  I was trying to group character build ya see.
> 
> and btw, aint you mixed heritage, not mixed race... aint that the pc way to say it these days.



Yeah I understand Tone but that kinda suggests that all 'Black' people whether from Africa, West Indies etc... have the same character because of their skin colour, doesn't it...

It's a habit that has been institutionalised Tone, lots of us do it, even Black people.

Race, Hertitage, PC, whatever, I don't think about PC-ness in that way especially not since people like to hurl that phrase around like a sledge hammer to beat you with these days...as I've said before on these boards ideas/morals/feelings like mine were around long before that phrase was coined. They were not invented in offices or labs that claim to have a monoply of what is good for who and when and how etc....they were formed by people who learnt by getting on with it and learning from it.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 6, 2006)

STFC said:
			
		

> Eh? Don't get you, sorry.



Forgive me mate, I confused you with another poster who was playing dumb earlier. SORRY for my sarky questions.


----------



## STFC (Dec 6, 2006)

Rutita1 said:
			
		

> Forgive me mate, I confused you with another poster who was playing dumb earlier. SORRY for my sarky questions.



Fair play. Just had me scratching my head a bit, that's all!


----------



## waverunner (Dec 6, 2006)

Just some random comments

Someone mentioned using London to measure tolerance vs using other areas in England (sorry if I misunderstood the post).. there's a huge difference between tolerance in London and tolerance elsewhere don't you think? To look at me you might guess that I'm foreign but not that I have roots stretching from Africa to Scandinavia. This links in to 'mixed heritage' and 'mixed race'. I'd definitely say that I'm of very very mixed heritage but I'd hesitate before I mention mixed race because to look at me you'd just say I'm white. Or some people call me a dark white but whatever - I don't think you'd look at me and call me mixed race by any means. Anyway. When I lived outside London in a small area near Milton Keynes (God help us all) myself and my friends were constantly on the receiving end of racism and horrible comments. 'Fuck off back to your own country' and 'at least I don't need a visa to get into the UK' were the most common ones for me. When I was dating an African guy I got hassled to the extreme (he didn't though) by men and women alike. When in London though I've hardly seen any of this directed at me. I blend in more, people can't seem to decide where I'm from and just leave me alone  That was a long ramble, perhaps with no coherent points but hopefully made a little sense.


----------



## Numbers (Dec 6, 2006)

Rutita1 said:
			
		

> Yeah I understand Tone but that kinda suggests that all 'Black' people whether from Africa, West Indies etc... have the same character because of their skin colour, doesn't it...
> 
> It's a habit that has been institutionalised Tone, lots of us do it, even Black people.
> 
> Race, Hertitage, PC, whatever, I don't think about PC-ness in that way especially not since people like to hurl that phrase around like a sledge hammer to beat you with these days...as I've said before on these boards ideas/morals/feelings like mine were around long before that phrase was coined. They were not invented in offices or labs that claim to have a monoply of what is good for who and when and how etc....they were formed by people who learnt by getting on with it and learning from it.


I want to marry you!!  am I allowed 2 wives?

I certainly don't think black people have the same character cos of skin colour, that'd be like saying us Irish are like teh English.  take you for e.g.  a proper wrongun.  not all black people are wronguns... I know a few tho'.  there should be a new race of peeps - wronguns.

anyway, finishing work now.  peace.


----------



## northernhord (Dec 6, 2006)

I went out with a black women some years ago and got loadsa shit mainly from Black guys, she got shit from black guys and younger black women, when ever we went to London to gigz n raves there seemed to be less of the dirty looks when I was walkin down the street holdin her hand, apart from doorman but those pricks are the same where ever they come from


----------



## goldenecitrone (Dec 6, 2006)

tbaldwin said:
			
		

> A lot of white incomers would agree with you. Cost they live in a bubble and dont see all the trouble..
> I wonder how many genuinelly local people you really know?



Well, I know most of the staff in Fresh and Wild. And the butcher who sells special stuff. And all the dealers went to school in the area. Enough for ya?


----------



## tbaldwin (Dec 6, 2006)

goldenecitrone said:
			
		

> Well, I know most of the staff in Fresh and Wild. And the butcher who sells special stuff. And all the dealers went to school in the area. Enough for ya?



More than enough.....Golden truly Golden....


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 6, 2006)

tony1798 said:
			
		

> I want to marry you!!  am I allowed 2 wives?



Now that's where being Irish and not from Africa, or Muslim, for example, has meant you loose out. NO! you can't have two wives...it's illegal  



> I certainly don't think black people have the same character cos of skin colour, that'd be like saying us Irish are like teh English. anyway



Mate you could of said three white blokes and one black, but you didn't.

I know you don't conciously think like Tony, but even though I know that it was inferred by your post. I just pointed it out because it was a good example of how institutionalised these ideas are and how much society has internalised them. 

When we talk about Black people, even if we know where they are from, we very often deny them a nationality. In doing so, we deny them identity, culture and individuality. Doing this, unfortunately plays a major part in supporting/replicating racist ideologies, whether we do it subconciously or not it still happens.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 6, 2006)

northernhoard said:
			
		

> I went out with a black women some years ago and got loadsa shit mainly from Black guys, she got shit from black guys and younger black women, when ever we went to London to gigz n raves there seemed to be less of the dirty looks when I was walkin down the street holdin her hand, apart from doorman but those pricks are the same where ever they come from



Being called a 'sell out' is the most common abuse I've heard.
It's often a response to Black people feeling that if a Black person chooses a White partner they are in some way, turning their back on the Black community and saying Black partners aren't good enough. There is still a lot of bitterness due to the racism people have suffered in the past and of course, an awareness of what is still going on today.


----------



## The Pious Pawn (Dec 6, 2006)

Its every were , I remember once ( happened twice with the same fella ) i was out with my mate from work ( he was indian ) and i saw a girl i know . She asked who i was with i pointed at me mate and she gave me a dirty look and said something he heard this i was speechless and felt a cunt . I called her a whore and of we went . That was one of them times when i stopped and thought about things it stuck with me the look on his face  , But at the same time he didnt like people from pakistan so its a funny old world we live in . I think in our own little way we all are to a degree a little racist wether we relise it or not .


----------



## Numbers (Dec 6, 2006)

Rutita1 said:
			
		

> Now that's where being Irish and not from Africa, or Muslim, for example, has meant you loose out. NO! you can't have two wives...it's illegal
> 
> 
> 
> ...


2 whites, an iranian and a black walk into a bar....  


<dumps wife>


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 6, 2006)

tony1798 said:
			
		

> <dumps wife>



Don't even jest about it Tone...you'll be getting pms again and I don't want to be labelled a 'home wrecker'.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 6, 2006)

tony1798 said:
			
		

> 2 whites, an iranian and a black walk into a bar....



What colour are people in Iran?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 6, 2006)

The Pious Pawn said:
			
		

> I think in our own little way we all are to a degree a little racist wether we relise it or not .



What would you say is the difference between racism and prejudice?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 6, 2006)

tony1798 said:
			
		

> Fucking sad innit.  It's a sad state of affairs to see the ammount of racism I see, in London (East) ffs.
> 
> It's rampant where I live.  I'd even go as far as to say that most people are racist where I live, from every side.
> 
> ...



I wonder how this relates to the concept of 'separate communities'?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 6, 2006)

Cowley said:
			
		

> I laugh when people say London isn't a racist place....there's plenty of racism rife in London in pretty much every area.  I know that's a very sweeping statement but I'm only giving you my opinion.
> 
> Trust me I've seen a hell of a lot of racism where I live in Brixton...I'm not talking about back in the 80's or 90's....I'm talking about this year.
> 
> ...



I've said this before. If a white guy called a black guy nigger under these circumstances in most cities in NA, the white guy would be beaten up, and nobody would lift a finger to stop it.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 6, 2006)

tony1798 said:
			
		

> This morning I was getting the bus to the tube.  and the bus was packed without being overcrowded and people were squeezing in/on, cos it was raining n'all.
> 
> at 1 stop this young black schoolgirl got on, and behind her was 2 or 3 white folks.  and this cunt standing close to the door started staring her down cos the bus driver couldn't close the door.  so she was one of the last ones on, but was no-where near the door.
> 
> ...



Bizarre.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 6, 2006)

STFC said:
			
		

> Fair play. Just had me scratching my head a bit, that's all!



I still cringe when I read this... 
*kicks self*


----------



## The Pious Pawn (Dec 6, 2006)

Rutita1 said:
			
		

> What would you say is the difference between racism and prejudice?




predujace on what grounds ?


----------



## William of Walworth (Dec 6, 2006)

So many different experiences!

Great thread. Depressing in places, but some excellent insights ...

Yay  to those who manage to be optimists anyway .... and we need to hear more from the pessimists to get a full picture also ...


----------



## STFC (Dec 7, 2006)

Rutita1 said:
			
		

> I still cringe when I read this...
> *kicks self*



No problem! I'm just glad I wasn't rude to you.


----------



## Numbers (Dec 7, 2006)

William of Walworth said:
			
		

> Yay  to those who manage to be optimists anyway .... and we need to hear more from the pessimists to get a full picture also ...


I may come across as a pesimist on this thread, but that couldn't be further from the truth.

I very rarely let _anything_ at all get me down or affect me, but this incident the other day just made me feel ill and left me thinking, thus also discussing openly.

Apart from quite obvious racism I still believe London is 1 of the best places on the planet to live, not for weather or anything like that, but for people.


----------



## upsidedownwalrus (Dec 7, 2006)

Reading this thread it makes me think how we accuse places like China of being backward.  Yet I and Mrs RD have never had any of this sort of crap in China cos of being together.

Usually people are just curious to look at RD Jr and say how cute he is.

Then again, a black guy with a Chinese woman here would probably get a lot more shit.


----------



## tbaldwin (Dec 7, 2006)

William of Walworth said:
			
		

> So many different experiences!
> 
> Great thread. Depressing in places, but some excellent insights ...
> 
> Yay  to those who manage to be optimists anyway .... and we need to hear more from the pessimists to get a full picture also ...



I agree with you here William...I think a lot of the threads get bogged down on anything to do with race etc in pointless slanging and yeah i know im as guilty as anyone....But its good to hear different points of view and peoples different experiences.


----------



## Numbers (Dec 7, 2006)

I can honestly say, in relation to directed racism.  I've received far more directed at me than my wife has.  Especially when I was in both Ealing and Feltham.

I've had people try and start on me and have had abuse hurled at me, loads of times.

When I lived in Feltham I used to do a bit of bouncing aswell, and used to wear a bomber jacket.  I'd get knowing nods in the street of approcal when on me own, but when I'd be walking with mrs1798 through Feltham I'd get all sorts of nastiness flung towards us, and even violence suggested.


----------



## STFC (Dec 7, 2006)

tony1798 said:
			
		

> I can honestly say, in relation to directed racism.  I've received far more directed at me than my wife has.  Especially when I was in both Ealing and Feltham.
> 
> I've had people try and start on me and have had abuse hurled at me, loads of times.
> 
> When I lived in Feltham I used to do a bit of bouncing aswell, and used to wear a bomber jacket.  I'd get knowing nods in the street of approcal when on me own, but when I'd be walking with mrs1798 through Feltham I'd get all sorts of nastiness flung towards us, and even violence suggested.



I used to live very close to Feltham. There were always NF posters and stickers dotted around the area.


----------



## dash (Dec 7, 2006)

I am one of the cautiously optimistic ones re the future for London, mainly because we are not going to have the situation where there are just two sides, two races facing off against each other, like in Bradford.

Instead it is more like the Tower of Babel with people from hundreds of different places living here. Within maybe 20-30 years there will be no clear ethnic majority of any kind here in London. Apparently more and more cities in the world are becoming like this. Not everyone likes that kind of situation at all. Many prefer what they are familiar with, so it is not surprising to learn that a lot of English people have moved out of London in the last ten years, although of course there are lots of different reasons why people might want to escape the capital.

It's what might happen outside the Tower that sometimes concerns me, and the idea that the Tower will expand in size, making those who don't want to be part of it feel cornered. I have heard people from Essex say that they or their parents were 'ethnically cleansed' from the East End of London. This kind of talk can become folklore. Folklore lasts centuries.


----------



## kyser_soze (Dec 7, 2006)

RenegadeDog said:
			
		

> Reading this thread it makes me think how we accuse places like China of being backward.  Yet I and Mrs RD have never had any of this sort of crap in China cos of being together.
> 
> Usually people are just curious to look at RD Jr and say how cute he is.
> 
> Then again, a black guy with a Chinese woman here would probably get a lot more shit.



Yeah, but face it - you're both _gwailo_ anyway, so anything you do will be seen as part of your barbarity innit? 



> I have heard people from Essex say that they or their parents were 'ethnically cleansed' from the East End of London. This kind of talk can become folklore. Folklore lasts centuries.



Well not wanting to sound like I agree with them, but from their perspective it's true. There's another thread going on at the moment about 2nd home owners displacing communities etc etc, and mass immigration does the same thing - from the perspective of a white person who has had family living in an area for 4, 5 or more generations seeing that area change from white and nominally Xtian (and a bit Jewish) to a multitude of hues, faiths and customs and foods I can understand completely why it would feel like displacement, and since it's something that none of them had control over while I don't agree with them (they could easily have chosen the harder path of staying and learning about their new neighbours) I can completely understand why they feel that way.


----------



## STFC (Dec 7, 2006)

Equally there is a sense of resentment among some people who have stayed in certain areas and have seen their neighbourhoods change dramatically pver the course of a few decades.


----------



## tbaldwin (Dec 7, 2006)

Good posts by Kyser and STFC i thought.


----------



## dash (Dec 7, 2006)

kyser_soze said:
			
		

> (they could easily have chosen the harder path of staying and learning about their new neighbours)



They could have done so in some cases but not in others. The odds of your children being to able to move out but be housed in the same neighbourhood become lower if there is growing demand for a fixed number of flats/houses.

Even if new housing is built, there's only so many people can be housed per hectare, so these issues eventually boil down to a demographic numbers game revolving around immigration levels and differences in birth rates.


----------



## Numbers (Dec 7, 2006)

tbaldwin said:
			
		

> Good posts by Kyser and STFC i thought.


Seconded.


----------



## upsidedownwalrus (Dec 7, 2006)

kyser_soze said:
			
		

> Yeah, but face it - you're both _gwailo_ anyway, so anything you do will be seen as part of your barbarity innit?



Er, no, Mrs RD is a Chinese citizen...


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 7, 2006)

dash said:
			
		

> I have heard people from Essex say that they or their parents were 'ethnically cleansed' from the East End of London. This kind of talk can become folklore. Folklore lasts centuries.



I'm not sure about this...do they mean they left because they were forced to? Forced by whom? How many of them actually left through choice?

My point is that lots of families left because they could and wanted to, many wanted to leave because of their resentment towards newcomers to the area..ie..immigrants.


----------



## kyser_soze (Dec 7, 2006)

Rutita1 said:
			
		

> I'm not sure about this...do they mean they left because they were forced to? Forced by whom? How many of them actually left through choice?
> 
> My point is that lots of families left because they could and wanted to, many wanted to leave because of their resentment towards newcomers to the area..ie..immigrants.



It would have been a combination of a all those - some would have gone through choice, some would leave because once the sons and daughters council housing policies ended there were no famliy ties keeping them in their communities, but ALL who left will have felt that they were forced to leave as a direct result of housing policies that meant white neighbourhoods and communities generations old were no longer viable - the arrival of immigrants was something they had no choice, no consultation and no control over, which is why some feel it was an ethnic cleansing of white people.



> They could have done so in some cases but not in others. The odds of your children being to able to move out but be housed in the same neighbourhood become lower if there is growing demand for a fixed number of flats/houses.
> 
> Even if new housing is built, there's only so many people can be housed per hectare, so these issues eventually boil down to a demographic numbers game revolving around immigration levels and differences in birth rates.



This problem was traditionally addressed by having what were called 'Sons and Daughters' housing policies - i.e. the offspring off someone who was a council tenant would automatically qualify and have a higher priority for local public housing then someone moving in from outside the councils borough. These policies were done away with as they were seen as 'racist' (altho discriminatory toward newcomers would be more appropriate).


----------



## dash (Dec 7, 2006)

Rutita1 said:
			
		

> I'm not sure about this...do they mean they left because they were forced to? Forced by whom? How many of them actually left through choice?



I think it is a stupid use of the term. No one was forced out at gunpoint, like some village being cleared in Yugoslavia.

But that's not the issue. What is important is how some people _believe_ things happened. People everywhere love to hold onto resentment, so there's not much prospect of those beliefs changing any time soon.


----------



## dash (Dec 7, 2006)

.


----------



## kyser_soze (Dec 7, 2006)

> No one was forced out at gunpoint



No, but the 'overspill' housing policies of the GLC in the 60s and 70s (resettling loads of Eastenders and other w/c communities in London to the home counties) did forcibly relocate about 300,000 people. My experience of it was reversed - I grew up in an atmosphere that was openly hostile to 'them townies' or 'that London overspill lot' who were immediately blamed for every social ill going; at the time my home town Witham had gone from being a sleepy town of approximately 8,000 locals, most of whom could trace ancestry back about 5 generations to Witham or a nearby town/village, which was almost doubled when 6 new estates were built to accomodate the 'overspill'. The reversal of the S&D policies happened around the late 70s/early 80s which compounded the issue further.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 7, 2006)

kyser_soze said:
			
		

> No, but the 'overspill' housing policies of the GLC in the 60s and 70s (resettling loads of Eastenders and other w/c communities in London to the home counties) did forcibly relocate about 300,000 people.



Still doesn't mean they have the right to say they were 'ethnically cleansed' and hand the story down as truth, blaming the immigrants, not government policy.


----------



## dash (Dec 7, 2006)

Indeed - 'ethnic cleansing' is a term people have learned from televised events in the former Yugoslavia. It dramatises GLC housing policies, it doesn't describe them accurately.

But white working-class East Londoners have been and are being crowded out from some areas in an unguided, unintentional process stemming from high levels of immigration and the high birth rates of the new, mostly Bangladeshi, arrivals, which has created fierce competition in housing. 

What is significant is that some people now use the term 'ethnic cleansing' to describe that.


----------



## kyser_soze (Dec 7, 2006)

Rutita1 said:
			
		

> Still doesn't mean they have the right to say they were 'ethnically cleansed' and hand the story down as truth, blaming the immigrants, not government policy.



People have the right to say whatever they want - I don't agree with the use of the term, but I can see why people feel that way.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 7, 2006)

dash said:
			
		

> Indeed - 'ethnic cleansing'..................... It *dramatises *GLC housing policies, it doesn't describe them accurately.



To say the least.....


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 7, 2006)

kyser_soze said:
			
		

> People have the right to say whatever they want - I don't agree with the use of the term, but I can see why people feel that way.



Well yes we have the right to say certain things but it doesn't mean they are truth...the age old 'blame it on the immigrants' crap annoys me because people are intelligent enough to work out that it's not true...... 

The fact is people like blaming stuff on 'the immigrants' because if they admit it's really the policies of central and local government that was and is at fault, they really should have done/should do something about it....truth is they are too lazy and complacent to do that, so it's much easier to blame 'the immigrants'.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 7, 2006)

STFC said:
			
		

> Equally there is a sense of resentment among some people who have stayed in certain areas and have seen their neighbourhoods change dramatically pver the course of a few decades.



You mean, they don't like all the black faces popping up in the surrounding houses.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 7, 2006)

Johnny Canuck2 said:
			
		

> You mean, they don't like all the black faces popping up in the surrounding houses.



Not all immigrants are Black, Johnny.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 7, 2006)

kyser_soze said:
			
		

> This problem was traditionally addressed by having what were called 'Sons and Daughters' housing policies - i.e. the offspring off someone who was a council tenant would automatically qualify and have a higher priority for local public housing then someone moving in from outside the councils borough. .



Is this truly how housing operated?


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Dec 7, 2006)

Johnny Canuck2 said:
			
		

> Is this truly how housing operated?



For a while, yes. For many years, you had mutual aid societies also growing in strength and number. There was a move towards a more co-operative society that somehow got lost in a mixture of radicalism, racialism and all points in between probably.


----------



## Numbers (Dec 8, 2006)

Rutita1 said:
			
		

> Not all immigrants are Black, Johnny.


Aint that the truth, Rut (ita1)!!

I love London, to absolute shreds.  Even tho' I posted this thread how often do you guys hear me have a moan about this kind of thing?  very very rare.  yes racism exists, but imo something like racism exists a lot more if you take it to heart and allow it to be the term coined as racism.

99999 times out of 100000 I let is flow over me head, but just sometimes, situations like what I experienced da nother day really grate on me.

fuck it tho'.

peace ya'll.

ps: when mrs1798 and I have our coffee coloured children with their long Irish faces... then we'll see the real future.  the world will be a much better place when the Irish breed with the coloured ethnics a bit more.

btw, whatever happned to DG55?


----------



## upsidedownwalrus (Dec 8, 2006)

Johnny Canuck2 said:
			
		

> You mean, they don't like all the black faces popping up in the surrounding houses.



No, often the areas this has happened the most are areas like Newham, where it has been mostly South Asian, rather than black, immigration.  Indeed places like Hackney where there was a lot of afrocaribbean immigration remain very mixed and relatively racially stress-free in my experience.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 8, 2006)

RenegadeDog said:
			
		

> No, often the areas this has happened the most are areas like Newham, where it has been mostly South Asian, rather than black, immigration.  Indeed places like Hackney where there was a lot of afrocaribbean immigration remain very mixed and relatively racially stress-free in my experience.



Well, a lot of South Asians have fairly black faces.


----------



## Numbers (Dec 8, 2006)

Newham at present, the part I live in anyway, is made up mostly of West African and Eastern European.  

They don't work together, they drag the integration of London back to the dark ages.. 

and that lads, is an absolute fact.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 8, 2006)

RenegadeDog said:
			
		

> No, often the areas this has happened the most are areas like Newham, where it has been mostly South Asian, rather than black, immigration.  Indeed places like Hackney where there was a lot of afrocaribbean immigration remain very mixed and relatively racially stress-free in my experience.



What colour ar people from South Asia?
I take it that when you say 'Black' you mean of African, Caribbean etc...origin?


----------



## goldenecitrone (Dec 8, 2006)

Johnny Canuck2 said:
			
		

> Well, a lot of South Asians have fairly black faces.



Where I live it's the opposite. A lot of the locals are black, but are increasingly being priced out of the housing market by the incoming white middle classes, like myself. And I know it pisses a lot of people off.


----------



## upsidedownwalrus (Dec 8, 2006)

Rutita1 said:
			
		

> What colour are people from South Asia?
> I take it that when you say 'Black' you mean of African, Caribbean etc...origin?



I thought that was the commonly accepted definition of black, yes.

People from south asia are dark-skinned caucasian.  Not black.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 8, 2006)

RenegadeDog said:
			
		

> I thought that was the commonly accepted definition of black, yes.
> 
> People from south asia are dark-skinned caucasian.  Not black.



First Time i've heard that...I shall tell my mates, next time you are called a Black b****** or a P*** they should jolly well correct the abuser and say...I am a dark skinned caucasian....

Why did you originally describe African and Caribbean people as 'Black', a colour....and not South Asians?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 8, 2006)

RenegadeDog said:
			
		

> People from south asia are dark-skinned caucasian.  Not black.



I am lighter skinned than lots of South Asian people, by your definition, I am Black.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 8, 2006)

STFC said:
			
		

> I used to live very close to Feltham. There were always NF posters and stickers dotted around the area.



Most of them probably posted up by the scum who work at Feltham YOI.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 8, 2006)

Johnny Canuck2 said:
			
		

> Is this truly how housing operated?



Yep.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 8, 2006)

RenegadeDog said:
			
		

> People from south asia are dark-skinned caucasian.  .



Not the dravidian-type people from southern india.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 9, 2006)

Johnny Canuck2 said:
			
		

> Not the dravidian-type people from southern india.



oh Johnny! you've spoilt my fun by pointing out the obvious hole in his argument.


----------



## Jessiedog (Dec 9, 2006)

Rutita1 said:
			
		

> Well that may be true , but then to increasing amounts of people, *'their own'* would be/actually is *mixed*.....
> 
> 
> @ Blackspecs........................... mixing the races up doesn't make shades of grey....it actually makes shades of brown.


Mix it up, baby!



Woof


----------



## alsoknownas (Dec 12, 2006)

T'other day I was watching an old couple get on a train (NE London).  They looked interesting huddled together and I was thinking how cute they looked.  They sat down and she said 'hot in here isn't it?  why don't they open the windows?', and he said to her  'well, thats what they're used to in the tropics, these subhuman beasts'.  They sort of just shrugged their shoulders.  I didn't know whether to laugh or cry.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 12, 2006)

alsoknownas said:
			
		

> T'other day I was watching an old couple get on a train (NE London).  They looked interesting huddled together and I was thinking how cute they looked.  They sat down and she said 'hot in here isn't it?  why don't they open the windows?', and he said to her  'well, thats what they're used to in the tropics, these subhuman beasts'.  They sort of just shrugged their shoulders.  I didn't know whether to laugh or cry.



Who were they refering to?


----------



## Numbers (Dec 12, 2006)

There's a bar at the top of my road which is a traditional East London pub for whites, actually, the 3 bars closest to me are all white only pubs, so I've noticed over the last 2.5 years.

From each of the pubs I have noticed on dozens of occasions the patrons openly and loudly abusing passers by who are not white, then laughing amongst each other.


----------



## upsidedownwalrus (Dec 13, 2006)

Johnny Canuck2 said:
			
		

> Not the dravidian-type people from southern india.



They still aren't black though.

I think for the majority of people, if you described someone as 'black', they would imagine someone of black african descent, not an indian.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 13, 2006)

RenegadeDog said:
			
		

> They still aren't black though.
> 
> I think for the majority of people, if you described someone as 'black', they would imagine someone of black african descent, not an indian.



http://www.cwo.com/~lucumi/india2.html


Pitchappan studied three ‘breeding isolates’ (castes) of Tamil Nadu in southern India, viz. Piramalai Kallars, Yadhavas and Sourashtrans and had big surprises. All these people living now in Madurai possessed 5-7% M130 marker. This marker is present in 10% of Malaysian, 15% of New Guineans and 60% of Australian Aborigines! This confirmed the first coastal migration from Africa to Australia, through India: an evidence that could not be obtained by archaeology has been obtained by genetics. Archaeological excavations in Fan Hien cave and Batadomba Lena cave in Sri Lanka contained anatomically modern humans and artefacts providing earliest sign of Upper Paleolithic in south Asia, dating 31,000 years. 

http://www.microbiol.unimelb.edu.au/14ihiws/projects/projects16.html


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 13, 2006)

RenegadeDog said:
			
		

> They still aren't black though.
> 
> I think for the majority of people, if you described someone as 'black', they would imagine someone of black african descent, not an indian.



Maybe your right, but my point wasn't that one. 

My point was how if your not from African or Caribbean descent you are popularly described as a skin colour, and not by your country of descent, I find it rather annoying.

It continues to debase people and deny them individuality. Because after all, not all 'Black' people are the same, come from the same countries, cultures, or have the same experiences.

It is a legacy of colonialist thought and ideology and unfortunately has been internalised by 'Black' people themselves.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 13, 2006)

RenegadeDog said:
			
		

> They still aren't black though.
> 
> I think for the majority of people, if you described someone as 'black', they would imagine someone of black african descent, not an indian.



Do you mean not a 'black african', a 'black indian'?


----------



## dash (Dec 13, 2006)

tony1798 said:
			
		

> There's a bar at the top of my road which is a traditional East London pub for whites, actually, the 3 bars closest to me are all white only pubs, so I've noticed over the last 2.5 years.
> 
> From each of the pubs I have noticed on dozens of occasions the patrons openly and loudly abusing passers by who are not white, then laughing amongst each other.



What a bunch of losers. Been nowhere, done nothing.

I hope you end up living in a part of town where you and your missus don't have to encounter such idiocy.


----------



## alsoknownas (Dec 13, 2006)

Rutita1 said:
			
		

> Who were they refering to?


Presumably the general occupants of the carriage who were, on average, more multi-racial than the populus as a whole. (If that makes sense).

(IE - There were lots of black and asian people sitting on the train.)


----------



## Monkeynuts (Dec 13, 2006)

Rutita1 said:
			
		

> What colour are people in Iran?



Perhaps somewhere between the two?


----------



## Numbers (Dec 13, 2006)

dash said:
			
		

> What a bunch of losers. Been nowhere, done nothing.
> 
> I hope you end up living in a part of town where you and your missus don't have to encounter such idiocy.


Too right mate.  we're only there for investment purposes.

It's just sad to see it so openly.  a few of the pubs even have signs in the windows "travellers by appointment only".

It's a nasty area of London indeed.


----------



## dash (Dec 13, 2006)

Well best of luck with your plans and with your move when it happens.


----------



## Monkeynuts (Dec 13, 2006)

tony1798 said:
			
		

> Too right mate.  we're only there for investment purposes.
> 
> It's just sad to see it so openly.  a few of the pubs even have signs in the windows *"travellers by appointment only".*
> 
> It's a nasty area of London indeed.



Does this mean salesmen or gypsies?

"Hello? Yes, can I book to come in for two pints of Carling at 8 on Thursday the 21st?"


----------



## Numbers (Dec 13, 2006)

Gypsies.  

One of the boozers was even on Britains worst pubs, about how they only like their own kind in there.  

they're shit holes tbf.  mrs1798 and I travel out of the area for a drink, our local is nowhere near being local... which sucks.

The worst pub tho' is a West Ham stronghold, with all the yuff outside chanting at passers by, I've seen them throw chips at people, not white people mind.

We don't get hassle cos we're local faces iykwim so we're left alone.


----------



## Belushi (Dec 13, 2006)

> It's just sad to see it so openly. a few of the pubs even have signs in the windows "travellers by appointment only".



When I was a teen in Peterborough a lot of the pubs would have 'No travellers' signs up.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 13, 2006)

alsoknownas said:
			
		

> (IE - There were lots of black and asian people sitting on the train.)



Do you mean dark brown skinned and lighter brown skinned people, or do you mean African, Caribbean, and Asian people?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 13, 2006)

tony1798 said:
			
		

> Gypsies.
> 
> One of the boozers was even on Britains worst pubs, about how they only like their own kind in there.
> 
> ...



Sounds like when I bring my kids to Europe, we'll give London a pass.


----------



## Monkeynuts (Dec 13, 2006)

Johnny Canuck2 said:
			
		

> Sounds like when I bring my kids to Europe, we'll give London a pass.



Don't be a tit


----------



## upsidedownwalrus (Dec 14, 2006)

Rutita1 said:
			
		

> Maybe your right, but my point wasn't that one.
> 
> My point was how if your not from African or Caribbean descent you are popularly described as a skin colour, and not by your country of descent, I find it rather annoying.
> 
> ...



Fair dos.  I see your point here.


----------



## upsidedownwalrus (Dec 14, 2006)

Johnny Canuck2 said:
			
		

> http://www.cwo.com/~lucumi/india2.html
> 
> 
> Pitchappan studied three ‘breeding isolates’ (castes) of Tamil Nadu in southern India, viz. Piramalai Kallars, Yadhavas and Sourashtrans and had big surprises. All these people living now in Madurai possessed 5-7% M130 marker. This marker is present in 10% of Malaysian, 15% of New Guineans and 60% of Australian Aborigines! This confirmed the first coastal migration from Africa to Australia, through India: an evidence that could not be obtained by archaeology has been obtained by genetics. Archaeological excavations in Fan Hien cave and Batadomba Lena cave in Sri Lanka contained anatomically modern humans and artefacts providing earliest sign of Upper Paleolithic in south Asia, dating 31,000 years.
> ...



OK interesting, thanks.  So the Dravidian people came about through a mixing between aboriginal type people and the aryans who came down from the north?


----------



## upsidedownwalrus (Dec 14, 2006)

tony1798 said:
			
		

> The worst pub tho' is a West Ham stronghold, with all the yuff outside chanting at passers by, I've seen them throw chips at people, not white people mind.



That isn't the Boleyn is it?  Awful place.


----------



## upsidedownwalrus (Dec 14, 2006)

Johnny Canuck2 said:
			
		

> Sounds like when I bring my kids to Europe, we'll give London a pass.



On the other hand, a black Canadian friend said that when she visited London, she was quite impressed at the level of black-white integration, at seeing black people in good jobs etc.  She said that the image created in North America is that the UK is very racist etc, and that what she actually saw was very different from what she expected.


----------



## Belushi (Dec 14, 2006)

Johnny Canuck2 said:
			
		

> Sounds like when I bring my kids to Europe, we'll give London a pass.



It's probably one of the least racist cities in Europe ime. That doesnt mean there isnt racism, just that the world is a very racist place.


----------



## Monkeynuts (Dec 14, 2006)

Belushi said:
			
		

> It's probably one of the least racist cities in Europe ime. That doesnt mean there isnt racism, just that the world is a very racist place.



Seems many people are mistrustful or resentful of anything different.

I do agree though, it may not be one big happy scene of love for mankind in all its guises here in London... but it is incomparably better than what I've seen living in France and the US.

In France - olive skin and curly hair, forget about getting into any club

In the US - hardly any black employees in the company and generally few black faces round the business district despite city being >40% black. Stark racial segregation with parts of the city being >95% black.


----------



## Belushi (Dec 14, 2006)

> Stark racial segregation with parts of the city being >95% black.



My brother went to Memphis, Tennessee a few years back for the Lewis-Tyson fight and booked himself into a motel in what uneknownst to him was the black area of town. Every white American he met was horrified when he told them where he was staying and assured him he was in deadly peril, he had a great time there, made friends with all the locals in the local bars who'd never met a Welsh person


----------



## Xanadu (Dec 14, 2006)

I'm confused by the whole "calling people black" thing.  Do any english people here get offended by being called "white"?

I'm indian, and I often call myself a "brown" person.  But I blame that on nishababy


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 14, 2006)

Xanadu said:
			
		

> I'm confused by the whole "calling people black" thing.  Do any english people here get offended by being called "white"?
> 
> I'm indian, and I often call myself a "brown" person.  But I blame that on nishababy



Calling people white also comes from the same ideology, and also debases them, maybe it isn't such an issue for them because they do not have the same history and experiences of widespread descrimination as 'Black' people have.....why are you confused?

I made the point earlier in the thread because it's one of my personal bug-bears...you describe yourself as Indian, that gives you an identity and is suggestive of your heritage and culture....I can remember not too long ago that Indian people were also described as 'Blacks' and 'wogs' etc....

My skin is also brown, chances are lighter than your's, but 'people' describe me as 'Black', does that tell you much about me? Does it tell you anything about my identity? Does it suggest anything to you about my heritage and culture? I imagine your answer will be yes, my argument is that it doesn't tell you enough.


----------



## Erich Zann (Dec 14, 2006)

Rutita1 said:
			
		

> Calling people white also comes from the same ideology, and also debases them, maybe it isn't such an issue for them because they do not have the same history and experiences of widespread descrimination as 'Black' people have.....why are you confused?
> 
> I made the point earlier in the thread because it's one of my personal bug-bears...you describe yourself as Indian, that gives you an identity and is suggestive of your heritage and culture....I can remember not too long ago that Indian people were also described as 'Blacks' and 'wogs' etc....
> 
> My skin is also brown, chances are lighter than your's, but 'people' describe me as 'Black', does that tell you much about me? Does it tell you anything about my identity? Does it suggest anything to you about my heritage and culture? I imagine your answer will be yes, my argument is that it doesn't tell you enough.




I've read the whole thread and not jumping in. 

I'd never really thought of it that way. So, thanks for opening a door for me. It is a tricky subject. Oriental people are not refered to positively by calling them yellow - the skin isn't actually yellow, neither is skin black.


----------



## Erich Zann (Dec 14, 2006)

Xanadu said:
			
		

> I'm confused by the whole "calling people black" thing.  Do any english people here get offended by being called "white"?
> 
> I'm indian, and I often call myself a "brown" person.  But I blame that on nishababy



maybe we should all just call ourselves 'coloured'?


----------



## Poi E (Dec 14, 2006)

Erich Zann said:
			
		

> maybe we should all just call ourselves 'coloured'?



Off topic, but it makes me shudder when that term is used in South Africa...surely they can come up with a better term for those people of the Cape than resorting to apartheid classifications?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 14, 2006)

Erich Zann said:
			
		

> maybe we should all just call ourselves 'coloured'?



Many people have a problem with that terminology as well...

I personally don't use skin colour descriptions if I can avoid them......I'm not saying of course that they aren't useful, time saving, and should not be seen as sinister....We do tend to over do the whole 'Black/White' thing though and although motivations may be innocent now, the habit came from ideas and motives that were far from savoury....it's incredible how deep these things run and how much stuffr we have internalised wothout questioning it and realising it's origins.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 14, 2006)

Erich Zann said:
			
		

> I've read the whole thread and not jumping in.
> 
> I'd never really thought of it that way. So, thanks for opening a door for me. It is a tricky subject. *Oriental people are not refered to positively by calling them yellow - the skin isn't actually yellow, neither is skin black.*


Well yes, good example.


----------



## Numbers (Dec 14, 2006)

I'm Navajo Irish


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 14, 2006)

Monkeynuts said:
			
		

> Don't be a tit



Believe it or not, there are places in this world where one won't encounter idiots sitting on a bar patio who yell and throw things at minorities.

If that happened to me, here, I'd call the police and have them arrested. The fact that such people can apparently do things like that in parts of London without being stopped, makes me not want to take my kids there.

Surely you can understand that.


----------



## Erich Zann (Dec 15, 2006)

Rutita1 said:
			
		

> Many people have a problem with that terminology as well...
> 
> I personally don't use skin colour descriptions if I can avoid them......I'm not saying of course that they aren't useful, time saving, and should not be seen as sinister....We do tend to over do the whole 'Black/White' thing though and although motivations may be innocent now, the habit came from ideas and motives that were far from savoury....it's incredible how deep these things run and how much stuffr we have internalised wothout questioning it and realising it's origins.



on my way back from the pub on the train i got chatting to a lovely girl and this exact subject came up. She said where she works people have trouble describing her because being white middle class type they go out of their way to avoid saying the 'the black girl in accounts', which is how she describes herself.


----------



## upsidedownwalrus (Dec 15, 2006)

Johnny Canuck2 said:
			
		

> If that happened to me, here, I'd call the police and have them arrested. The fact that such people can apparently do things like that in parts of London without being stopped, makes me not want to take my kids there.
> 
> Surely you can understand that.



Yeah, but East Ham isn't the sort of area you are likely to visit.  Just as you aren't likely to visit the Saint Denis area of Paris.

You seem to have a real chip on your shoulder about the British, a desire to slag us off at every opportunity.


----------



## Erich Zann (Dec 15, 2006)

RenegadeDog said:
			
		

> Yeah, but East Ham isn't the sort of area you are likely to visit.  Just as you aren't likely to visit the Saint Denis area of Paris.
> 
> You seem to have a real chip on your shoulder about the British, a desire to slag us off at every opportunity.



inferiority complex. Definitely.


----------



## TeeJay (Dec 15, 2006)

Johnny Canuck2 said:
			
		

> ...The fact that such people can apparently do things like that in parts of London without being stopped, makes me not want to take my kids there...


Every city has its shitty parts and its arseholes - even Vancouver. 

Racism: The dark side of Vancouver
More on racism in Van
also "Canada First" (I don't want to link to their website - www canadafirst dot net) look like the Canadian version of the BNP
A Webography: The History of Racism in Canada

Having read these I am not about to boycott coming to Vancouver and I somehow doubt you are going to move out either.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 15, 2006)

RenegadeDog said:
			
		

> Yeah, but East Ham isn't the sort of area you are likely to visit.  Just as you aren't likely to visit the Saint Denis area of Paris.
> 
> You seem to have a real chip on your shoulder about the British, a desire to slag us off at every opportunity.



I actually rather like some of the british people I've met. If I didn't like the british, I wouldn't spend so much time here.

As for slagging you, it's good for you; helps to deflate your superiority complex.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 15, 2006)

TeeJay said:
			
		

> Every city has its shitty parts and its arseholes - even Vancouver.
> 
> Racism: The dark side of Vancouver
> More on racism in Van
> ...



Yeah, racism exists here.

But still, if someone sitting in a  chip shop threw food at me and my family, and then yelled racist epithets at us, I'd call the cops, and the culprits would be arrested.

Racism exists everywhere. The question is, how much is it tolerated by the majority, and by the authorities?

I've heard on these boards, about blacks being called monkey, ape etc on buses in London. That makes my jaw drop.  If someone did that here, in public, they'd be beaten up, or at least thrown off the bus, by the other riders, both black and white.

Anyway, I'd probably bring my kids to london, on second thought. It's good to be exposed to a variety of experiences when you're young.


----------



## Oula (Dec 15, 2006)

Johnny Canuck2 - People seem to be describing racist incidents that are the exception rather than the rule here (I hope). London is not full of people who call black people monkeys while everyone else stands by and does nothing. Tony was talking about an incident when he stood up to someone on a bus near the beginning.I think the point is that London is neither an extremely racist place nor a place free of racism. And even one person calling another a monkey is shocking and one too many. 

Ruita1 - Surely people have different opinions on how they want to be referred to and that should be respected. My sister in law gets very angry when she has to fill out forms that want her to call herself Indian or when other people refer to her as Indian. She sees herself as British Asian. She says that, to her, "Indian" suggests someone who was actually born in India and has just come here recently. She is 2 generations away from India so does not feel this term adequately describes her.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 15, 2006)

Oula said:
			
		

> Ruita1 - Surely people have different opinions on how they want to be referred to and that should be respected.




Yes of course, I haven't suggested otherwise. If you read my posts i have been talking about a more general habit of describing people by the colour of their skin, even if you know where they are from, especailly if talking about people from the Caribbean, Africa and Europe. How many times have you heard some say when refering to an Indian person...'that brown skinned guy blah blah blah....' they will more likely say Indian or Asian.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 15, 2006)

Erich Zann said:
			
		

> on my way back from the pub on the train i got chatting to a lovely girl and this exact subject came up. She said where she works people have trouble describing her because being white middle class type they go out of their way to avoid saying the 'the black girl in accounts', which is how she describes herself.



Well yes this is a good example of it getting stupid, If you don't know someones name of background it's ridiculous not to use her skin colour as a reference....but what do you do if there is more than one 'Black' girl in accounts?


----------



## Monkeynuts (Dec 15, 2006)

Rutita1 said:
			
		

> Well yes this is a good example of it getting stupid, If you don't know someones name of background it's ridiculous not to use her skin colour as a reference....



Only if you would otherwise be describing her as "the ginger girl in accounts" or "the fat girl in accounts" or whatever.

I'm not entirely comportable with picking the colour as the defining characteristic but hey I'm a middle class white type


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 15, 2006)

Monkeynuts said:
			
		

> Only if you would otherwise be describing her as "the ginger girl in accounts" or "the fat girl in accounts" or whatever.
> 
> I'm not entirely comportable with picking the colour as the defining characteristic but hey I'm a middle class white type



My point was that it is often easier and not sinister to do so.....I like the fact people are aware and are not comportable to defining people solely by their skin colour also and I am not a 'middle class white type', but it can get silly at times.


----------



## detective-boy (Dec 15, 2006)

Johnny Canuck2 said:
			
		

> If that happened to me, here, I'd call the police and have them arrested. The fact that such people can apparently do things like that in parts of London without being stopped, makes me not want to take my kids there.
> 
> Surely you can understand that.


If that happened to you in London (it won't, any more than it is likely to in Canada), the call the police and they would be arrested / stopped.

The fact that you are unable to realise that a description is being provided of one or two pubs in one or two specific areas of one of the largest cities in the world and the fact that you are willing to immediately apply that to the whole of London, all the time, makes me not to want you to bring your kids here.

Surely you can understand that.


----------



## detective-boy (Dec 15, 2006)

Rutita1 said:
			
		

> Well yes this is a good example of it getting stupid, If you don't know someones name of background it's ridiculous not to use her skin colour as a reference....but what do you do if there is more than one 'Black' girl in accounts?


The difference between using the term black as a neutral descriptor (as here) and in a prejorative / demeaning / insulting way is a mystery to most of the _politically-correct brigade_ ((c) The Daily Mail) and those who slag them off (i.e. ... er ... The Daily Mail).

It was the basis of why the PC who was sacked a few years ago for calling a kid he was struggling with "a black bastard" in a descriptive way was later reinstated - perjorative / demeaning insulting = sackable; descriptive = unwise / unnecessary but not necessarily sackable.  (If I recall, the kids Mum entirely agreed that the original sacking had been excessive in the circumstances)


----------



## detective-boy (Dec 15, 2006)

RenegadeDog said:
			
		

> You seem to have a real chip on your shoulder about the British,


Have the East London chip shop lot started coating them with Evostick now ...


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 15, 2006)

detective-boy said:
			
		

> It was the basis of why the PC who was sacked a few years ago for calling a kid he was struggling with* "a black bastard"* in a descriptive way was later reinstated - perjorative / demeaning insulting = sackable; descriptive = unwise / unnecessary but not necessarily sackable.  (If I recall, the kids Mum entirely agreed that the original sacking had been excessive in the circumstances)



Don't care what the boy's mum thought, IMO it was an insult, simple....why didn't he just shout 'bastard' ? Why, because he wanted to demean the boy and using the colour of his skin gave the insult that personal edge...


----------



## Numbers (Dec 15, 2006)

Rutita1 said:
			
		

> Don't care what the boy's mum thought, IMO it was an insult, simple....why didn't he just shout 'bastard' ? Why, because he wanted to demean the boy and using the colour of his skin gave the insult that personal edge...


I actually disagree with that to a degree.  for me personally anyway.

Sometimes, in street situations if I've been in a ruck, or am in a situation.  using a phrase like black bastard can be similar to you you ginger tosser, four eyed twat, big eared fuck, fat prick etc...

It doesn't always have to be a racist slur, it can be an observational slur, like people have called me stupid Irish etc..

does that make sense?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 15, 2006)

tony1798 said:
			
		

> I actually disagree with that to a degree.  for me personally anyway.
> 
> Sometimes, in street situations if I've been in a ruck, or am in a situation.  using a phrase like black bastard can be similar to you you ginger tosser, four eyed twat, big eared fuck, fat prick etc...
> 
> ...



Well we'll have to agree to disagree then Tone, if anyone ever uses race in an insult, I believe it to be racist.


----------



## detective-boy (Dec 15, 2006)

Rutita1 said:
			
		

> Well yes this is a good example of it getting stupid, If you don't know someones name of background it's ridiculous not to use her skin colour as a reference....but what do you do if there is more than one 'Black' girl in accounts?





> Don't care what the boy's mum thought, IMO it was an insult, simple....why didn't he just shout 'bastard' ? Why, because he wanted to demean the boy and using the colour of his skin gave the insult that personal edge...



Are you not arguing in two different ways here?  Importing some personal views on the _particular_ situation.  Why would it automatically be any different from "the black girl in accounts" or "you ginger bastard"?   

Yes, it's an insult (the bastard bit anyway).  Yes, it's unprofessional.  Yes, it needs to be dealt with.  But why is the use of the word black _necessarily_ anything worse than the word than the word "ginger" or "fat" would have been?


----------



## Numbers (Dec 15, 2006)

detective-boy said:
			
		

> But why is the use of the word black _necessarily_ anything worse than the word than the word "ginger" or "fat" would have been?


I agree with this to a degree the way I disagree with you rutita1 to a degree.

It's not a situation I find myself in ever, for the record.  But I don't see the problem if used in that context.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 15, 2006)

detective-boy said:
			
		

> If that happened to you in London (it won't, any more than it is likely to in Canada), the call the police and they would be arrested / stopped.
> 
> The fact that you are unable to realise that a description is being provided of one or two pubs in one or two specific areas of one of the largest cities in the world and the fact that you are willing to immediately apply that to the whole of London, all the time, makes me not to want you to bring your kids here.
> 
> Surely you can understand that.



In the course of various threads, a number of the black U75ers have revealed that they have been called racist names like monkey, etc. on London public transit and elsewhere.

I suspect that London is more racist than you, as a white person, are aware of, or maybe want to believe.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 15, 2006)

detective-boy said:
			
		

> Have the East London chip shop lot started coating them with Evostick now ...



You seem rather flippant about this occurrence.

Would you be as flippant if they were throwing food at gays and yelling 'faggot'?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 15, 2006)

tony1798 said:
			
		

> I actually disagree with that to a degree.  for me personally anyway.
> 
> Sometimes, in street situations if I've been in a ruck, or am in a situation.  using a phrase like black bastard can be similar to you you ginger tosser, four eyed twat, big eared fuck, fat prick etc...
> 
> ...



No. To a black person 'black bastard' is a racist slur, intended to point out the colour of the person, and doing so in an insulting way.


----------



## Numbers (Dec 15, 2006)

In the heat of a battle dear Johnny it certainly is not... and that be that there context I thee talk about. 

I remember we had this kind of conversation before mate, about what one notices first about somebody, I'm sure you recall quite clearly, as I do.

I said I make no judgement on someones race or creed when I meet them first, I notice them as a person first and foremost.

So when I say what I say now, it is in an entirely different, and logical to me, context.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 15, 2006)

tony1798 said:
			
		

> In the heat of a battle dear Johnny it certainly is not... and that be that there context I thee talk about.
> 
> I remember we had this kind of conversation before mate, about what one notices first about somebody, I'm sure you recall quite clearly, as I do.
> 
> ...



You or others may not mean it as a racial insult.

What I'm telling you, is that a person of colour receives it as a racial insult.


----------



## Numbers (Dec 16, 2006)

And you are speaking on behalf of every single person of colour of course.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 16, 2006)

tony1798 said:
			
		

> And you are speaking on behalf of every single person of colour of course.



No, I'm not.

I'm not looking for a fight. I'll rephrase. It would cause me some measure of hurt and upset to be called a 'black bastard' to my face.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 16, 2006)

detective-boy said:
			
		

> Are you not arguing in two different ways here?  Importing some personal views on the _particular_ situation.  Why would it automatically be any different from "the black girl in accounts" or "you ginger bastard"?
> 
> Yes, it's an insult (the bastard bit anyway).  Yes, it's unprofessional.  Yes, it needs to be dealt with.  But why is the use of the word black _necessarily_ anything worse than the word than the word "ginger" or "fat" would have been?




I'm going to be really honest, at the moment it is 7:17 in the morning and I don't have the energy to answer this with the vigour and clear-headedness that I'd like to.....describing someone as 'black', 'ginger' or fat is one thing....insert anger, intent/motivation to hurt/insult  is another.... I don't use these descriptions when angry, I don't feel the need to add weight to my insults by drawing on the colour of someone's hair, their weight, least of all the colour of their skin............I'm not argining in different ways at all, when it comes to some things, one size fits all in my world, it is as simple as that.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 16, 2006)

Johnny Canuck2 said:
			
		

> You or others may not mean it as a racial insult.
> 
> What I'm telling you, is that a person of colour receives it as a racial insult.



This Johnny is the crux of it....intention is definately not the same thing as how something is received.....


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 16, 2006)

tony1798 said:
			
		

> And you are speaking on behalf of every single person of colour of course.



Tone, I don't think I know anyone who would not be racially insulted by that, whatever their race....insult someone, add their race to the mix = racial insult..


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Dec 16, 2006)

Haven't read all the way through this thread having been away for a while, but relatively speaking London is the least racist place I know of. Of course racism exists, but compared to outside London and particularly outside the UK (France springs to mind) I think London is not too bad at all, although of course it could do better.


----------



## detective-boy (Dec 16, 2006)

tony1798 said:
			
		

> It's not a situation I find myself in ever, for the record.  But I don't see the problem if used in that context.


It's not a situation I find myself in either.  I choose to avoid the possibility of misperception. 

*BUT* I draw a very large distinction between usage as a simple descriptor (which, if shown to be inappropriate (as in the example given)  should be a minor disciplinary issue in the police, etc) and usage in a perjorative / demeaning / insulting way which is racist (and should be dealt with as a major disciplinary issue in the police, etc.)


----------



## detective-boy (Dec 16, 2006)

Johnny Canuck2 said:
			
		

> Would you be as flippant if they were throwing food at gays and yelling 'faggot'?


I'm not being flippant.  That you think I am says more about you and your prejudices than it does about mine.

If they were throwing food at passing gay people (not "gays", you will note) and yelling "gay" or "homosexual" in a descriptive sense then I would treat that in exactly the same way as if they were throwing food at passing black people (not "blacks", you will note) and yelling "black" in the same descriptive sense.

If, however, they _were_ yelling "faggot" (a term which is, in itself, insulting and offensive and indicative of homophobic motivation as opposed to simply descriptive like gay or homosexual), I would treat it in exactly the same way as if they were yelling _nigger_ (a term which is, in itself, insulting and offensive and indicative of racist motivation as opposed to simply descriptive like black).


----------



## detective-boy (Dec 16, 2006)

Johnny Canuck2 said:
			
		

> It would cause me some measure of hurt and upset to be called a 'black bastard' to my face.


Who has suggested it wouldn't?

Who has suggested that it should be allowed to go unchallenged?

But are you really saying that it is in the same league and undistinguishable from "nigger bastard"?


----------



## detective-boy (Dec 16, 2006)

Rutita1 said:
			
		

> ...insert anger, intent/motivation to hurt/insult  is another.... I don't use these descriptions when angry, I don't feel the need to add weight to my insults by drawing on the colour of someone's hair, their weight, least of all the colour of their skin...I'm not argining in different ways at all, when it comes to some things, one size fits all in my world, it is as simple as that.


I agree that coupled with anger, other abuse, etc. then it rapidly moves towards being racist and, often, would clearly be so.  I merely pointed out that it need not _always_ be so. (ETA: As I implied in my first post on this subject here and as I emphasised a couple of posts later with the words "particular" and "necessarily" in italics)

You choose to have a single approach to the use of any descriptor coupled with anger / insult and have exactly the same view of the use of black in that context as ginger or fat.  I think you are very unusual in that.  The majority of people, I am sure would distinguish them.  You position is logical and understandable.  I just don't think it's that common.


----------



## gaijingirl (Dec 16, 2006)

A bit off topic - but with regards to the US v UK attitudes towards colour.

One episode that really struck me.  I had a friend from LA staying with me (who is a very dark skinned Mexican girl - the only one in her family who speaks English - she works in schools in "no go areas" and "ghettoes").  

This was a few years ago now, but she was staying with me in Brixton and we were watching Blind Date on telly.  She was really really shocked to see that amongst the 4 people on stage (excluding Cilla of course) there was a mixture of black and white people (in this particular episode).  She said that this would _never_ happen in the US.  They have all white or all black episodes apparently.  I was really surprised.

The 2nd - I was visiting another friend in Philadelphia - wealthy, white and her friend asked me if I liked black men.  I said yes although I didn't quite realise the subtext of her question.  I _had_ noticed that all the bars, pubs we went to had been completely white.  The next evening, however, she took me to a club where we were the _only_ white people in the entire place.  I have to say it was quite a strange experience for me and if I'm completely honest I wasn't terribly comfortable.  The dancing style was that very close contact thing where basically the woman bends over and sticks her butt out and the man sort of grinds up behind it.  At least that's what everyone else was doing.  A few men asked us to dance, but the other women in there seemed less than delighted at our presence.  It was all a bit odd.  

The thing is that I do think there are some entirely black places in Brixton too - I haven't been in - I wonder what my reception would be?  Also, there are some that seem largely (if not entirely) white - I wonder how black people feel in those - is it similar to how I felt in Philadelphia - or not?  I also wonder if it is different socio economic groups who drink in both types of establishments?  Currently studying at SOAS I'm in the minority in my ethnicity (very white - almost translucent Irish..  ), however, I'm also in the minority financially - there are an awful lot of extremely rich students at SOAS.  

My perception is that if you go to some of the all black clubs/pubs in Brixton (and surrounding areas) you'd be unlikely to find such wealthy types - but you might find them in "higher end" clubs frequented by people from a variety ethic backgrounds.  However, this could be completely misconstrued on my part simply because never having visiting all black clubs/pubs I don't know anything about their social makeup apart from what I see based solely on colour.  It's a really interesting subject though and I wonder if anyone has done any research into it?

Anyway, lots and lots of questions there with no real point to my post I'm afraid.. just thinking out loud.  Overall, I feel that London it is _comparatively_ well integrated - especially compared to my experiences and observations whilst living overseas (mainly in France, Spain and Japan).  Differences here seem to be more pronounced in terms of socio-economics than colour or ethnicity - IMO.


----------



## detective-boy (Dec 16, 2006)

Rutita1 said:
			
		

> This Johnny is the crux of it....intention is definately not the same thing as how something is received.....


Absolutely right.

How something is received / perceived should, of course, be considered when deciding how we go about our lives.  It is why I say that the use of a racial descriptor should be avoided by the police and other public servants in unjustified situations such as anger _because it is easily misinterpreted / misperceived_ and that will cause _unintended_ distress to the person hearing it.

*BUT* how it is _intended_ should be the principle factor in deciding how harshly it should be treated, how serious the disciplinary sanction should be.

To have a blanket approach - use black, get sacked - policy (a) brings the policy into disrepute; (b) turns people away from dealing with the issue sensibly; (c) gives succour to the "polictical-correctness gone mad" brigade and (d) undermines a huge amount of entirely necessary, sensible and effective work being done elsewhere.  

We _MUST_ in my opinion, have a mature, sensible, effective policy if we want to make inroads into the problem with the majority of people with whom there is not the opportunity for extensive diversity training inputs.  A blanket approach is not such a policy.  It will not work.


----------



## Giles (Dec 16, 2006)

Belushi said:
			
		

> When I was a teen in Peterborough a lot of the pubs would have 'No travellers' signs up.



Where I come from (Lincoln) there used to be this little pub near to a field where a bunch of "travellers" were camped that had a "No Travellers" sign taped to the door.

The ironic thing was that the pub was actually called "The Travellers Rest"!!

Giles..


----------



## Numbers (Dec 16, 2006)

Rutita1 said:
			
		

> Tone, I don't think I know anyone who would not be racially insulted by that, whatever their race....insult someone, add their race to the mix = racial insult..


My experience of this is quite different then.

racial observational slurs, like any slur, _can_ be used in context. 

another example of how a racial slur can be acceptable is amongst friends.  the things my pal and I say to one another sometimes are some of the nastiest things you'll ever hear in your life.

We don't say it in front of just anyone, but we do say it without it being seen as racism.


----------



## Numbers (Dec 16, 2006)

Johnny Canuck2 said:
			
		

> It would cause me some measure of hurt and upset to be called a 'black bastard' to my face.


If I was to, for no reason whatsoever say such a thing then yes I agree with you.

But, a racial slur in context doesn't have to be, and isn't ime/o, racism.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 16, 2006)

tony1798 said:
			
		

> My experience of this is quite different then.
> 
> racial observational slurs, like any slur, _can_ be used in context.
> 
> ...



Tone, I completely see your point. The trust between yourself and your friend is what makes this ok, in the context of your friendship.... But I doubt you'd feel the same about a stranger thinking they could say the same things.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 16, 2006)

detective-boy said:
			
		

> Who has suggested it wouldn't?


I thought you were suggesting it shouldn't be seen as offensive, using your example of the policeman....





> But are you really saying that it is in the same league and undistinguishable from "nigger bastard"?


 Has anyone suggested it is? Obviously one of them 'nigger bastard' is much more overt.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 16, 2006)

detective-boy said:
			
		

> Absolutely right.
> 
> How something is received / perceived should, of course, be considered when deciding how we go about our lives.  It is why I say that the use of a racial descriptor should be avoided by the police and other public servants in unjustified situations such as anger _because it is easily misinterpreted / misperceived_ and that will cause _unintended_ distress to the person hearing it.
> 
> *BUT* how it is _intended_ should be the principle factor in deciding how harshly it should be treated, how serious the disciplinary sanction should be.


You must see there is a very big grey area there....the perceived intention of something comes about with the context in which it's used....it is easy after the fact to say I didn't mean it like that and discount any offensive taken.



> To have a blanket approach - use black, get sacked - policy (a) brings the policy into disrepute; (b) turns people away from dealing with the issue sensibly; (c) gives succour to the "polictical-correctness gone mad" brigade and (d) undermines a huge amount of entirely necessary, sensible and effective work being done elsewhere.
> 
> We _MUST_ in my opinion, have a mature, sensible, effective policy if we want to make inroads into the problem with the majority of people with whom there is not the opportunity for extensive diversity training inputs.  A blanket approach is not such a policy.  It will not work.



Some things are just plain common sense. I still however, think that your 'police officer' was completely inappropriate, given his position and i'm not surprised in the slighest that him calling someone a 'black bastard' caused offense. He can say rightly or wrongly, 'I didn't mean it like that', unfortunately given our experiences and knowledge  of covert racism, the trust doesn't exist not to find  his behaviour/approach questionable.


----------



## detective-boy (Dec 16, 2006)

Rutita1 said:
			
		

> I thought you were suggesting it shouldn't be seen as offensive, using your example of the policeman....
> 
> ...
> 
> Has anyone suggested it is?


My point in the example was that it *may* not be racist if used in that scenario (and does not appear to have been in that example when finally resolved).  If would not automatically be more offensive in that context than using "ginger" or "fat" in front of "bastard". 

By saying that "black bastard" is "always racist" then you are placing it always in the same category as "nigger bastard" - i.e. racist _per se_ and deserving of the strongest punishment.


----------



## detective-boy (Dec 16, 2006)

Rutita1 said:
			
		

> You must see there is a very big grey area there....


There are things that shouldn't be said because there is agreement that they are racist / offensive / perjorative _per se_.  Things like nigger and paki and faggot.  Anyone knowingly using such terms must expect to be assumed to be demonstrating racist behaviour / thoughts / opinions.

Then there are things which frequently cause offence but which do not necessarily betray racist behaviour / thoughts / opinions.  That is the grey area.  They should be _avoided_ particularly by professionals like police officers but use should not automatically be deemed to betray racist behavour / thoughts / opinions.  It MAY, but that should not be assumed.  If the use does, it should be dealt with like the first category.  If it does not, it should be dealt with as a lesser offence (unprofessional / inappropriate behaviour, with a proportionate disciplinary punishment).  "Black" as a descriptor falls into this category.

Then there is everything else which someone MAY find offensive but which is normally considered to be innocuous (e.g. black board, man hole, positive ...).  Here there should be no punishment attached to use causing inadvertent offence but repeated use to the person offended could well amount to unprofessional / inappropriate behaviour and require a proportionate disciplinary punishment.

Of course there is a grey area.  Virtually everything is in the latter two categories.  That is why blanket bans are not wise, why they bring the whole concept into disrepute and why education and understanding is needed.

The perception of the person offended is important and perceived offence should of course be avoided.  But the perception of the hearer should NOT define the seriousness of the offence.  It should be a factor, but it should certainly not be the only one (except in the first, most serious category, where it is irrelevant anyway).


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 16, 2006)

detective-boy said:
			
		

> But are you really saying that it is in the same league and undistinguishable from "nigger bastard"?




Not at all. There are degrees of hurt and upset. "Nigger bastard" would cause greater hurt and upset than "black bastard", but hurt and upset would be casued by both.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 16, 2006)

detective-boy said:
			
		

> Absolutely right.
> 
> How something is received / perceived should, of course, be considered when deciding how we go about our lives.  It is why I say that the use of a racial descriptor should be avoided by the police and other public servants in unjustified situations such as anger _because it is easily misinterpreted / misperceived_ and that will cause _unintended_ distress to the person hearing it.
> 
> *BUT* how it is _intended_ should be the principle factor in deciding how harshly it should be treated, how serious the disciplinary sanction should be..



I disagree. I think the 'reasonable man', or objective test, should be used. Would a reasonable man, reasonably informed, in the position of the police officer, etc, know that his comments were likely to cause upset or insult? If the answer is yes, then there should be discipline.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 16, 2006)

tony1798 said:
			
		

> My experience of this is quite different then.
> 
> racial observational slurs, like any slur, _can_ be used in context.
> 
> ...



When I was younger, as in school, some of the people around me would use the term 'black bastard'; not referring to me, but in some other context.

Then, it would be like they remembered that I was black, and they'd grin sheepishly, maybe say sorry.

I knew they weren't meaning to insult me, and I knew that they weren't really all that racist, but it bothered me a little that that term rose so easily to their lips.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 16, 2006)

tony1798 said:
			
		

> If I was to, for no reason whatsoever say such a thing then yes I agree with you.
> 
> But, a racial slur in context doesn't have to be, and isn't ime/o, racism.



If I cut you off in traffic, for example, and you called me 'black bastard', instead of just 'fucking bastard', I'd consider it racist. 

It would mean that the place you'd go to to insult me, or to show your anger, was my race.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 16, 2006)

Johnny Canuck2 said:
			
		

> When I was younger, as in school, some of the people around me would use the term 'black bastard'; not referring to me, but in some other context.
> 
> Then, it would be like they remembered that I was black, and they'd grin sheepishly, maybe say sorry.
> 
> I knew they weren't meaning to insult me, and I knew that they weren't really all that racist, but it bothered me a little that that term rose so easily to their lips.



I've had the same experience...many, many times....
I was bothered by it too. I thought it would only a matter of time before they were directing the insult at me for some reason or another, I was usually right.


----------



## detective-boy (Dec 16, 2006)

Johnny Canuck2 said:
			
		

> It would *mean* that the place you'd go to to insult me, or to show your anger, was my race.


No.  It would *mean* that that is what you thought.

It *may* indicate that that is the place they'd go.  It may even be *probable* that that is the place they'd go.  

But there *is* a possible alternative explanation, i.e. that it is simply used as a descriptor.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 16, 2006)

My suspicion as to what's going on. I think that tony definitely, and most likely detective as well, are not only not racist, but are good people who do not wish to see 'racial' harm or insult come to others.

But, they are also intelligent and strong personalities, and are here and now, being confronted with their own unconscious chauvinism. And if you have a strong ego and strong opinions, there's nothing more galling than to be told that, even unwittingly, you've been doing something contrary to your stated beliefs.

I think there are many white people in this boat: they are well meaning in the extreme, and are in total agreement on the evil of racism. Thus, when they hear that they've been unwittingly racist, they get mad, but they get mad at everyone and everything except themselves; then they turn themselves into knots to deny or invalidate the idea.

Here, we have someone arguing that 'black bastard' isn't necessarily racist. IMO, this is being argued because it causes cognitive dissonance to think of oneself as devoid of racism, but then to be informed that some aspect of your behavior, has in fact been offensive.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 16, 2006)

detective-boy said:
			
		

> No.  It would *mean* that that is what you thought.
> 
> It *may* indicate that that is the place they'd go.  It may even be *probable* that that is the place they'd go.
> 
> But there *is* a possible alternative explanation, i.e. that it is simply used as a descriptor.



Anything's possible, but that's why I suggested an objective standard wrt discipline for officers concerning racial insults.

IMO, if there is someone operating in our society, esp. as a policeman, who isn't aware that the term 'black bastard' will be received as a racist insult, then he or she is so clueless or benighted, that some discipline or chiding is necessary in order to bring them into step with common understanding and thinking of the rest of the population.


----------



## detective-boy (Dec 16, 2006)

Johnny Canuck2 said:
			
		

> IMO, this is being argued because it causes cognitive dissonance to think of oneself as devoid of racism, but then to be informed that some aspect of your behavior, has in fact been offensive.


(a) I haven't used the term "black bastard"
(b) I wouldn't use the term "black bastard"
(c) I am sure I am unconsciously prejudiced sometimes.  We all are.  It's human nature that we do what works for us.  And what works for us is defined by our background / upbringing / etc.
(d) Whilst I will always try and reduce the amount of unconscious prejudice I display, I am not going to be worried or upset by the fact I display some.  Because there is no way I cannot.
(e) The reasoning I am arguing with you is because by always judging the sender of a message on the basis of the receiver's perceptions is muddle-headed and, in my opinion, causes far more damage to the whole cause of race relations and diversity awareness than it fixes.


----------



## detective-boy (Dec 16, 2006)

Johnny Canuck2 said:
			
		

> IMO, if there is someone operating in our society, esp. as a policeman, who isn't aware that the term 'black bastard' will be received as a racist insult, then he or she is so clueless or benighted, that some discipline or chiding is necessary in order to bring them into step with common understanding and thinking of the rest of the population.


Something isn't "racist" by the way it is *received*.  

It is racist by the way it is used.

Some fuckwits think the simple, innocent use of the word "blackboard" when describing, well, a black board is racist.  Is it?  By your definition it is, _if the hearer perceives it to be_.  The "politically correct brigade" love those who argue from your position.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 16, 2006)

detective-boy said:
			
		

> Something isn't "racist" by the way it is *received*.
> 
> It is racist by the way it is used..



Sorry, not true.

There are americans in the south [fewer than before, admittedly] who believe that the word for a person with dark skin, is 'nigger'. That's how they were raised.

Those of colour who hear that, will likely be upset by it.

Is that racist, or not?

As I've already said, when it comes to certain public behavior, we're held to an objective standard. That means that our intentions etc come second, to the effect that our behavior is having on others. You're an ex cop, so I'm not telling you anything new.

You may think it's ok to keep your bicycle on the sidewalk, but when someone trips over it and breaks their leg, the judge in the civil lawsuit will hold you to an objective standard as to what was reasonable behavior in the circumstances. He'll say you were negligent.

IMO, it's negligent not to make oneself aware of the racial import of your words or actions and to comport oneself accordingly.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 16, 2006)

I may honestly believe that beating my child with a cane when he refuses to eat his peas, is instilling an important moral lesson about obedience, not to mention good dietary habits.

A judge is more likely to view it as assault.

The parent will be held to an objective standard; he or she can't hide behind their own personal outlandish beliefs.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 16, 2006)

detective-boy said:
			
		

> Some fuckwits think the simple, innocent use of the word "blackboard" when describing, well, a black board is racist.  Is it?  By your definition it is, _if the hearer perceives it to be_.  The "politically correct brigade" love those who argue from your position.



No, because by an objective standard, 'blackboard' isn't racist, because the word 'black' isn't racist per se. It only becomes racist on occasion, according to the terms of its use.

A minority person who is insulted by 'blackboard' has an outlandish belief out of step with the common understanding of society.


----------



## detective-boy (Dec 17, 2006)

Johnny Canuck2 said:
			
		

> No, because by an objective standard, 'blackboard' isn't racist, because the word 'black' isn't racist per se. It only becomes racist on occasion, according to the terms of its use.


.... and around we go again ....


----------



## TeeJay (Dec 17, 2006)

Johnny Canuck2 said:
			
		

> I suspect that London is more racist than you, as a white person, are aware of, or maybe want to believe.


And you need to realise that racism in London often goes in many different directions - for example between so-called "non-white" people. Maybe you would do better to lecture us all about the situation in your own city rather than somewhere you seem to have spent very little time.


----------



## Aldebaran (Dec 17, 2006)

TeeJay said:
			
		

> And you need to realise that racism in London often goes in many different directions - for example between so-called "non-white" people. Maybe you would do better to lecture us all about the situation in your own city rather than somewhere you seem to have spent very little time.



I don't think such problems fall under clear-cut racism. It seems to be more a cultural issue then anything else. 
Still, it is very one-sided to see "racism" as only a problem of "white" against "non-white" and then even with emphasis on the "white" side as if that is the only source.

salaam.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 17, 2006)

TeeJay said:
			
		

> And you need to realise that racism in London often goes in many different directions - for example between so-called "non-white" people. .



Does that somehow make it better?


----------



## TeeJay (Dec 17, 2006)

Johnny Canuck2 said:
			
		

> Does that somehow make it better?


I never said it did. But in light of this fact maybe you'd like to reconsider this statement:

_"I suspect that London is more racist than you, as a white person, are aware of, or maybe want to believe."_

Frankly I find your habit of putting people into racial boxes and qualifying their views on this basis as racialist, if not racist itself - whether deliberately or simply because it is so ingrained in how you see the world.

It is a bit farsical that you think a "white" person in London is either automatically unaware of racism, or moreover that a "white" person might want or not want to blieve certain things. You are projecting a hell of a lot of things here and making a lot of assumptions all based on some concept of "race" that you are labelling someone with - in exactly the same way as many racists do.  

If you really knew much about London you'd realise that there are many dynamics going on that don't boil down to "white"-on-"black" racism and I suggest you acknowledge this and try and get your head around the consequences.

Sometimes I think that you aren't that bothered in discussing London in any case - you just want to make sly digs and nasty comments about London and the UK generally, for some unknown reason. You don't come across as someone who genuinely gives a shit or could be bothered to find out any facts of the matter.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 17, 2006)

TeeJay said:
			
		

> I never said it did. But in light of this fact maybe you'd like to reconsider this statement:
> 
> _"I suspect that London is more racist than you, as a white person, are aware of, or maybe want to believe."_
> 
> Frankly I find your habit of putting people into racial boxes and qualifying their views on this basis as racialist, if not racist itself - whether deliberately or simply because it is so ingrained in how you see the world..



I don't care. 

I know what experiences I've had in my life, and I'm honest here about them, and the effect they've had on me.

If you don't approve of that, there's not a lot I can do about it, or care to do about it.


----------



## TeeJay (Dec 17, 2006)

Johnny Canuck2 said:
			
		

> I know what experiences I've had in my life, and I'm honest here about them, and the effect they've had on me.


I'm sure that all racists have some kind of "reasons" they ended up like they have.

Doesn't make them any less full of shit.


----------



## Numbers (Dec 17, 2006)

Johnny Canuck2 said:
			
		

> I don't care.
> 
> I know what experiences I've had in my life, and I'm honest here about them, and the effect they've had on me.
> 
> If you don't approve of that, there's not a lot I can do about it, or care to do about it.


lol Johnny, so admirable of you. 

You think we don't post up honestly about our experiences.  lol.  or do you think you're the only one with experiences.

do me a favour...


----------



## Numbers (Dec 17, 2006)

Johnny Canuck2 said:
			
		

> If I cut you off in traffic, for example, and you called me 'black bastard', instead of just 'fucking bastard', I'd consider it racist.
> 
> It would mean that the place you'd go to to insult me, or to show your anger, was my race.


nope, an obvious obvious characteristic of someone, incl' skin colour, isn't always racism.

you seem a bit of a shrnking violet to me.


----------



## Numbers (Dec 17, 2006)

Johnny Canuck2 said:
			
		

> My suspicion as to what's going on. I think that tony definitely, and most likely detective as well, are not only not racist, but are good people who do not wish to see 'racial' harm or insult come to others.
> 
> But, they are also intelligent and strong personalities, and are here and now, being confronted with their own unconscious chauvinism. And if you have a strong ego and strong opinions, there's nothing more galling than to be told that, even unwittingly, you've been doing something contrary to your stated beliefs.
> 
> ...


As for this post of yours, it doesn't even merit a response it is filled with such friviality.  really.

ffs, have you lived life at all brother? you know, with a wide variety of friends of all nationalities and colours or have you ever been involved in a violent lifestyle, fir example.

paragraph 2 of your post is a very narrow minded inaccurate statement.  imo of course.

I have life experiences of which you speak, plenty of it.

I find it difficult not to laugh at the naiviety of this post and how narrow a space you speak from within.


----------



## roundtheworld (Dec 18, 2006)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Canuck2
I suspect that London is more racist than you, as a white person, are aware of, or maybe want to believe. 

That is probably the most foolish patronising and racist comment i have heard in a long time. I now am fortunate to spend most of my time outside London and am fully aware of how racist ALL people are here. When walking with my girlfriend (who is Scottish of Chinese decent) in London a few months ago she was racially abused and jeered at by 3 black youths. Being in a mixed relationship myself I know that the racism I received came from many different people but rarely from "white" people. My best friend is of Ghanaian decent and he tells me how in his family racism is accepted. For idiots like you to generalise the "white" community into a single bracket is absurd and violently offensive. On another of your fantastic comments....that white people are unintentionally racist, even if this stupid statement is true, you are doing so intentionally which in my opinion is far worse.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 18, 2006)

TeeJay said:
			
		

> I'm sure that all racists have some kind of "reasons" they ended up like they have.
> 
> Doesn't make them any less full of shit.



Yeah, that's it.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 18, 2006)

tony1798 said:
			
		

> lol Johnny, so admirable of you.
> 
> You think we don't post up honestly about our experiences.  lol.  or do you think you're the only one with experiences.
> 
> do me a favour...



My reply was to Teejay, not you, based his conclusion that I'm a racist.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 18, 2006)

tony1798 said:
			
		

> As for this post of yours, it doesn't even merit a response it is filled with such friviality.  really.
> 
> ffs, have you lived life at all brother? you know, with a wide variety of friends of all nationalities and colours or have you ever been involved in a violent lifestyle, fir example.
> 
> ...




Are you able to contain your ego in the same room as your body?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 18, 2006)

roundtheworld said:
			
		

> Quote:
> On another of your fantastic comments....that white people are unintentionally racist, even if this stupid statement is true, you are doing so intentionally which in my opinion is far worse.



Ask any black person if that statement is true.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 18, 2006)

tony1798 said:
			
		

> have you ever been involved in a violent lifestyle, fir example.
> .



I wonder what you mean by that; and I wonder what it has to do with a discussion of racism.

We all know you've been in prison. We all know you're married to a black woman.

Why not post up your address, so we all will know where to send the medals.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 18, 2006)

You know, it's kind of funny.

Two guys come on and tell everyone that the term 'black bastard' isn't necessarily racist.

I come on and say that intention aside, it's a hurtful and upsetting term, to me at least.

I also say that many white people [and yes, others as well], can be unintentionally racist, and that they often don't want to be advised of that fact, or to recognize it to be true.

They then return to rip me limb from limb, calling me racist, blinkered, frivolous, etc.

Like I said, scrutiny and attack of everything but your own behaviour.

It has to be funny; the alternative is despair.


----------



## DrRingDing (Dec 18, 2006)

Johnny Canuck2 said:
			
		

> They then return to rip me limb from limb, calling me racist, blinkered, frivolous, etc.
> 
> Like I said, scrutiny and attack of everything but your own behaviour.
> 
> It has to be funny; the alternative is despair.



Easy tiger.


----------



## Numbers (Dec 18, 2006)

DrRingDing said:
			
		

> Easy tiger.


Innit,

Johnny you <let me think> cretin.  Your patronisation doesn't work with me.

I don't champion the fact that I was in prison or married to a black woman.  

I asked the question about violence as the last thing on someones mind when in that lifestyle is the colour of someones skin.  

ALL I've tried to get across on this thread is that it isn't always racism to use the observation of someones obvious physical trait, not just black or brown, but ginger, fat, glasses, whatever...

you don't see this.  and ffs, 'limb from limb'.

From past threads I know you possess a structured opinion and will not be swayed and find it hard to believe certain things hpow people behave and respond on initially meeting people.

You sir... need to get out more.

I like you, so would never cuss or sbuse you... but wake the fuck up Johnny mate.


----------



## Principle (Dec 18, 2006)

The problem that needs to be tackled is rascism all round now just white on bblack rascism -there is hundreds of asians that are rascist to blacks blacks that are rascist to everyone thats not not black, africans rascist to carribeans -carribeans rascist to africans

Come on people  - fix up with this pathetic ness!!


----------



## detective-boy (Dec 18, 2006)

tony1798 said:
			
		

> you seem a bit of a shrnking violet to me.


You _ALWAYS_ have to bring colour into it, don't you ...


----------



## upsidedownwalrus (Dec 18, 2006)

Principle said:
			
		

> Come on people  - fix up with this pathetic ness!!



Leave the beautiful lochs of scotland out of this.


----------



## Numbers (Dec 18, 2006)

Principle said:
			
		

> Come on people  - fix up with this pathetic ness!!


elaborate.


----------



## Numbers (Dec 18, 2006)

detective-boy said:
			
		

> You _ALWAYS_ have to bring colour into it, don't you ...


 

If I'm not ripping limb from limb it's petal from petal.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 18, 2006)

detective-boy said:
			
		

> Something isn't "racist" by the way it is *received*.
> 
> It is racist by the way it is used.
> 
> Some fuckwits think the simple, innocent use of the word "blackboard" when describing, well, a black board is racist.  Is it?  By your definition it is, _if the hearer perceives it to be_.  The "politically correct brigade" love those who argue from your position.



Up until now you have made a lot of good points, please don't spoil it by drawing comparatives like that...there is a massive difference between a policeman using a phrase like 'Black bastard' and the over zealous 'politically correct brigade' trying too hard and undermining race relations by vilifying words like 'blackboard'.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 18, 2006)

detective-boy said:
			
		

> No.  It would *mean* that that is what you thought.
> 
> It *may* indicate that that is the place they'd go.  It may even be *probable* that that is the place they'd go.
> 
> But there *is* a possible alternative explanation, i.e. that it is simply used as a descriptor.



Again a good point, but you know giving people the benefit of the doubt gets harder and harder when your experiences have taught that whilst being optimistic is a good thing, being realistic is also necessary, albeit sometimes a bitter pill to swallow.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 18, 2006)

Johnny Canuck2 said:
			
		

> I also say that many white people [and yes, others as well], can be unintentionally racist, and that they often don't want to be advised of that fact, or to recognize it to be true.




For what it's worth Johnny, I actally agree with some of the things you have said, perhaps because some things/experiences are 'universal', perhaps because we are both mixed race, perhaps not.

I believe it's the unintentional aspect of this that is the hardest for anyone to deal with....nobody likes to feel/realise that even with all their best intentions, they somehow have internalised and then find themselves unconsenting bedfellows of something they are conciously opposed to....in terms of racism, it's a heavy burden to carry. I speak from my own personal experiences and observations of the experiences of others.

It is an uncomfortable space to be in, and can make you question yourself in a  way that many of us, probably thought we had grown out of. It makes us feel vunerable and powerless. It is nonetheless, an experience and reality for people of all ethnic origins, nobody, regardless of race is immune to this. Recognising it and dealing with it, is a individual challenge....


----------



## Aldebaran (Dec 18, 2006)

Would I be racist I would have to throw constantly some racist insults to myself and everytime again be in need to first of all answer the following: 
Am I Arab as in "sand eating women beating camel driver" or am I European as in "degenerated infidel White Trash suffering from post-colonial disease".


Dilemma... dilemma...

Maybe I could switch from one to the other every other day to keep things viable for myself. 

salaam.


----------



## Pete the Greek (Dec 18, 2006)

that second insult sounds cool!! Can I be that?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 18, 2006)

Aldebaran said:
			
		

> Would I be racist I would have to throw constantly some racist insults to myself and everytime again be in need to first of all answer the following:
> Am I Arab as in "sand eating women beating camel driver" or am I European as in "degenerated infidel White Trash suffering from post-colonial disease".
> 
> 
> ...



Try it and see?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 18, 2006)

Pete the Greek said:
			
		

> that second insult sounds cool!! Can I be that?



Why not if you like it that much...


----------



## Aldebaran (Dec 18, 2006)

Rutita1 said:
			
		

> Try it and see?



I am not allowed to only "try" it. It is expected that I split my brain function in two seperately reasoning entities no matter when or where and only be my whole self when I'm unconscious. To save my sanity I secretly conditioned some brain cells to establish reasoning patterns that allow the two parts to come together and act as one and that is the secret behind why I'm still not locked up in a madhouse .

salaam


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 18, 2006)

tony1798 said:
			
		

> Innit,
> 
> Johnny you <let me think> cretin.  Your patronisation doesn't work with me.
> 
> ...



That's the thing: I think you're one of the good guys when it comes to this.

Ask yourself: can you think of a time when you'd consider some stranger calling your wife a 'black bitch', to be anything other than racist?


----------



## Aldebaran (Dec 18, 2006)

Pete the Greek said:
			
		

> that second insult sounds cool!! Can I be that?



For free. I suggest using it as tagline 

salaam.


----------



## TeeJay (Dec 18, 2006)

Aldebaran said:
			
		

> Would I be racist I would have to throw constantly some racist insults to myself and everytime again be in need to first of all answer the following:
> Am I Arab as in "sand eating women beating camel driver" or am I European as in "degenerated infidel White Trash suffering from post-colonial disease".


Utter fallacy mate:

The racist german nazis allied themselves with the racist regime in japan. The ultra-nationalist japanese thinking was that although they weren't european they were definitely superior to other 'asian races' (eg korean, chinese etc). 

When I lived in Japan and discussed stuff with some "black" colleagues (some fellow teachers from canada and america, one - a telecoms engineer - from west africa) it was agreed that there was definitely a whole 'pecking order' or caste system with japanese at the top, white gaijin (ie americans) just below this, a third tier of 'east asians' (ie people who looked much like japanese) but with darker-skinned people (ie african, indian, other dark skinned people) at various lower 'rungs' in terms of status and being at the recieving end of racism, stereotyping and being less than fully welcome (for example in some bars or hotels etc). Pretty much similar things were reported by some of the japanese people I knew very well (including my gf) and who were willing to talk about it. The actual treatment of gaijins (literally 'outside or alien people' is seldom if ever violent but in some situations you simply won't be allowed do do certain things or into certain places and "non-white" gaijins definitely seem to have a harder time than "white" ones.   

This way of looking at the world doesn't seem to be causing a fair number of japanese people's brains to melt or to be logically impossible for them. There are numerous other examples of people who are looked down on by one group, in turn looking down on others... you only have to look at large parts of africa, the middle east, india, south-east asia, south america and so forth.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 18, 2006)

Hai, kurochan, so desu.


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## Errol's son (Dec 18, 2006)

littlebabyjesus said:
			
		

> Define front line for me please. As I understand it, it is a place past which you do not pass if you are the wrong colour or don't live in a place. I'm not just talking about places that are a bit of a dump.



Well there are many places in Peckham that I would not advise you to visit if you are not from that part of Peckham.

Anyway, Peckham is full of racism IMO. When I moved there five or six years ago I thought it wasn't really a problem but I was wrong and one can see lots of it coming from all the nationalities that live there.

What is depressing is that now I have moved away to the countryside (near Stoke) racism is even more noticeable.


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## gaijingirl (Dec 18, 2006)

TeeJay said:
			
		

> Utter fallacy mate:
> 
> The racist german nazis allied themselves with the racist regime in japan. The ultra-nationalist japanese thinking was that although they weren't european they were definitely superior to other 'asian races' (eg korean, chinese etc).
> 
> When I lived in Japan and discussed stuff with some "black" colleagues (some fellow teachers from canada and america, one - a telecoms engineer - from west africa) it was agreed that there was definitely a whole 'pecking order' or caste system with japanese at the top, white gaijin (ie americans) just below this, a third tier of 'east asians' (ie people who looked much like japanese) but with darker-skinned people (ie african, indian, other dark skinned people) at various lower 'rungs' in terms of status and being at the recieving end of racism, stereotyping and being less than fully welcome (for example in some bars or hotels etc). Pretty much similar things were reported by some of the japanese people I knew very well (including my gf) and who were willing to talk about it. The actual treatment of gaijins (literally 'outside or alien people' is seldom if ever violent but in some situations you simply won't be allowed do do certain things or into certain places and "non-white" gaijins definitely seem to have a harder time than "white" ones.




In Japan, I was once presented at a "meet the local foreigners" event in a hotel.  We were lined up in stage in pecking order.  Myself and my American friend at the top (can't remember who came first).. followed by Koreans, Chinese and Fillipinas (who were _all_ "mail order" brides.  Some of the comments made were really insulting.  It was frankly horrible.


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## Aldebaran (Dec 18, 2006)

TeeJay said:
			
		

> Utter fallacy mate



I was joking of course, but the last post I made is in fact a realistic record of my every-day life. 

I took Japanese as third language when studying in Europe. Found the language itself fascinating enough but I had a problem to really fully immerse myself in the required culture studies, so I dropped it somewhere in the second year and switched to Classical Chinese which was (still is)of much more of use in my studyfield anyway. I didn't open a Japanese book since then but still have that light but nagging aversion for the culture. (Excluding from this of course the religious- and the art history. Fascinating and humiliating at the same time ). 
I was more then once in the occasion to go to Japan but I never did. I wouldn't classify that under "racism" though. I have absolutely nothing against any Japanese "in person", I can't connect with the culture of Japan. 

From within my own background I'm also very familiar with the "looking down on others" for various reasons. It is an aspect of every society but in my view also to be linked to other factors then those who are obvious because very visible. For example nationalism, and religion an important other one.   

salaam.


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 18, 2006)

Aldebaran said:
			
		

> I was joking of course, but the last post I made is in fact a realistic record of my every-day life.
> 
> I took Japanese as third language when studying in Europe. Found the language itself fascinating enough but I had a problem to really fully immerse myself in the required culture studies, so I dropped it somewhere in the second year and switched to Classical Chinese which was (still is)of much more of use in my studyfield anyway. I didn't open a Japanese book since then but still have that light but nagging aversion for the culture. (Excluding from this of course the religious- and the art history. Fascinating and humiliating at the same time ).
> I was more then once in the occasion to go to Japan but I never did. I wouldn't classify that under "racism" though. I have absolutely nothing against any Japanese "in person", I can't connect with the culture of Japan.
> ...



Does dyslexia affect your ability to read Kanji?


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## Treacle Toes (Dec 18, 2006)

Aldebaran said:
			
		

> I am not allowed to only "try" it. It is expected that I split my brain function in two seperately reasoning entities no matter when or where and only be my whole self when I'm unconscious. To save my sanity I secretly conditioned some brain cells to establish reasoning patterns that allow the two parts to come together and act as one and that is the secret behind why I'm still not locked up in a madhouse .
> 
> salaam



It was a tongue in cheek suggestion....I also relate to those 'expectations'. The thing is those 'expectations' underestimate our capacity to unite difference. Maybe that's why i'm good at stuff like collage and mosaic?


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## Monkeynuts (Dec 19, 2006)

No that'll be your teenage glue habit


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## Treacle Toes (Dec 19, 2006)

Monkeynuts said:
			
		

> No that'll be your teenage glue habit



Nice one, Why you hating? 

I think you'll find it's my artistic ability and my patience........Although evo-stick does smell nice, wasn't really my bag


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## Numbers (Dec 19, 2006)

Evostick Wood Adhesive, the Green can, is what ya want.


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## Treacle Toes (Dec 19, 2006)

tony1798 said:
			
		

> Evostick Wood Adhesive, the Green can, is what ya want.



Tone love, the stuff I like comes in smaller bags...


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## Monkeynuts (Dec 19, 2006)

Rutita1 said:
			
		

> Nice one, Why you hating?
> 
> I think you'll find it's my artistic ability and my patience........Although evo-stick does smell nice, wasn't really my bag



Sorry, just joking


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