# Microsoft announces Surface tablet family



## Kid_Eternity (Jun 18, 2012)

Apparently MS have been pumping the rumour mill full of SEO loving link bait creating juice about a big product announcement today...or tonight as it's 6.30pm Eastern Standard Time (11.30pm our time)...anyone care enough to speculate on what it is?

Live blogging will commence over at BGR.



> Microsoftwill hold a press conference on Monday to make a major product announcement, and the company did its best to ensure the topic of the evening’s presentation was kept under wraps. In fact, Microsoft hasn’t even shared the location of the event yet with publications that will be in attendance. A pair of early reports last week suggested thata Microsoft-branded Windows 8 tabletwill be the focus of Monday’s festivities, which are set to begin at 6:30 p.m. Eastern. A later report indicated we may instead seethe first tablet-eReader comboemerge fromMicrosoft’s Barnes & Noble partnership, but the_Dow Jones_says that Barnes & Noble played no role in the announcements set to be made on Monday. Regardless of what Microsoft has in store, BGR will be on hand to cover the Redmond-based company’s event live.
> 
> *Bookmark this link*, which will go live shortly before the press conference begins this evening, and make sure to head there for our live coverage of Microsoft’s event! Coverage will begin just before 6:30 p.m. Eastern / 3:30 p.m. Pacific.


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## Crispy (Jun 18, 2012)

Keeping products secret is not something MS usually does, so I doubt it'll be anything world shattering. An MS-branded Windows RT tablet is the most likely thing I suppose. The only thing that would excite me about one of those is the price.


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## FridgeMagnet (Jun 18, 2012)

Yeah, can't see that liveblog going under from the demand.


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## Kid_Eternity (Jun 18, 2012)

Saw something about an 'Xbox Surface' tablet but this sounds a bit...naff to be true...


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## bmd (Jun 18, 2012)

Isn't it something about the ARM-based version Windows 8?


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## FridgeMagnet (Jun 18, 2012)

We already know about that though.


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## bmd (Jun 18, 2012)

FridgeMagnet said:


> We already know about that though.



It's an extra special secret last bit of knowledge about it that changes everything. EVERYTHING.


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## Kid_Eternity (Jun 18, 2012)

Bob Marley's Dad said:


> It's an extra special secret last bit of knowledge about it that changes everything. EVERYTHING.


 
It changes everything. AGAIN.


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## Kid_Eternity (Jun 18, 2012)




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## Yetman (Jun 18, 2012)

Thats better than my fucking desktop


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## FridgeMagnet (Jun 18, 2012)

Bob Marley's Dad said:


> It's an extra special secret last bit of knowledge about it that changes everything. EVERYTHING.


Are they going to announce that it won't suck?


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## maldwyn (Jun 18, 2012)

It's probably a new mouse.


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## bmd (Jun 18, 2012)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Are they going to announce that it won't suck?



After having fucked on with a bastardised version of Debian on a plug computer and also fannied about endlessly with a NAS with an ARM processor with some Korean schoolchild's idea of an operating system on another, I must say I'm quite looking forward to Windows having a go.


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## maldwyn (Jun 18, 2012)

If it is a BIG reveal, well done on keeping it secret. But to match Apple they'll have to end the announcement with '... it ships today'.

It's also being blogged on The Verge from  11.30pm


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## Crispy (Jun 18, 2012)

It won't be a touchscreen xbox. The games industry is notoriously leaky and we would've heard about it already.


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## FridgeMagnet (Jun 18, 2012)

Xboxes don't have screens for a start.


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## Kid_Eternity (Jun 18, 2012)

Crispy said:


> It won't be a touchscreen xbox. The games industry is notoriously leaky and we would've heard about it already.


 
I find it hard to believe that also. Mainly because it seems like a really stupid way of diluting your brand while neglecting another suited to the device...


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## elbows (Jun 18, 2012)

Hmmm, may as well have a silly guess.

Im sure they don't want to dilute the xbox brand, but at the same time they'd like some of their xbox consumer success to rub off on other stuff, including tablets. And I usually moan about the downsides of Microsoft and Google relying on partners to make the hardware. So I think they may as well try something, though Im not sure exactly what, haven't given it too much thought yet. 

Would laugh if it turns out to be office for iPad apps, although I find that somewhat unlikely as it would be stupid to release such apps now when we are approaching the time when they are going to want windows 8 tablets to be a success.


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## Kid_Eternity (Jun 18, 2012)

Well they've blown one of the key elements of a big secret event: starting on time.


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## elbows (Jun 18, 2012)

No they haven't, they said doors open at half past as far as I know. Blame the press for bad reporting of the factoids.


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## Ranbay (Jun 18, 2012)

http://www.pcadvisor.co.uk/news/tablets/3364534/live-microsoft-la-press-event/


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## Kid_Eternity (Jun 18, 2012)

elbows said:


> No they haven't, they said doors open at half past as far as I know. Blame the press for bad reporting of the factoids.


 
The doors didn't open at 3.30pm. They've also blown another element too, making Europe stay up late to see this. Apple have always been smart enough to get the news cycles in both continents.


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## Kid_Eternity (Jun 18, 2012)

From Cnet:



> Why on earth would Microsoft think that a press event during the east coast dinner hour at an unknown location with nearly zero notice and late-opening doors would get them good coverage?​


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## elbows (Jun 18, 2012)

Well if the product is any good it will overcome the press and wanky marketing issues. I don't really give a shit how its announced, and nor do most people who might end up buying it (or laughing at how crap it is).

I agree that annoying journalists is not usually a smart move but hey, its not a huge deal in the grand scheme of things.


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## Kid_Eternity (Jun 18, 2012)

Apparently those going in were given this card and told it'll make sense later in the presentation.


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## elbows (Jun 18, 2012)

If the CNET coverage is anything to go by there is an unsurprising lack of understanding about WindowsRT beyond geeks who understand the specific technology differences.


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## Kid_Eternity (Jun 19, 2012)

Blimey, some are talking about the Courier! Mentioning some of the graphics are reminiscent of it...now MS announcing that would be something.


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## Kid_Eternity (Jun 19, 2012)




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## elbows (Jun 19, 2012)

Well Ballmer has gone on about Windows 8 and Microsoft sometimes needing to push the bounds of hardware by doing hardware themselves, so I think we get some idea where this is going.


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## Kid_Eternity (Jun 19, 2012)

Steve channelling Steve Jobs?



> "We believe that any intersection between human and machine can be made better when hardware and software are considered together."​


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## Kid_Eternity (Jun 19, 2012)

A tablet.


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## FridgeMagnet (Jun 19, 2012)

well fuck me

least inspiring picture ever


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## weltweit (Jun 19, 2012)

Imagine if he dropped it during the presentation ... 

It looks very droppable!!


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## Kid_Eternity (Jun 19, 2012)

FridgeMagnet said:


> well fuck me
> 
> least inspiring picture ever


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## FridgeMagnet (Jun 19, 2012)

That's pretty uninspiring, but the first one was worse.


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## RaverDrew (Jun 19, 2012)

meh


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## Kid_Eternity (Jun 19, 2012)




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## FridgeMagnet (Jun 19, 2012)

Tomorrow's tech supplement headlines: "Microsoft releases a new tablet or something".


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## Kid_Eternity (Jun 19, 2012)

10.6"? Btw I don't think these guys get how to do the reality distortion thing, so far they've talked up a very ordinary looking tablet. What's so great about THIS one over the others?


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## Kid_Eternity (Jun 19, 2012)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Tomorrow's tech supplement headlines: "Microsoft releases a new tablet or something".


 
Don't forget the Semantic Zoom.


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## ruffneck23 (Jun 19, 2012)

hopefully the price..


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## Kid_Eternity (Jun 19, 2012)

I stand corrected. It has a built in stand!!


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## Kid_Eternity (Jun 19, 2012)

And a magnetic cover...a smart...cover...if you will.






Which is also a keyboard!


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## ruffneck23 (Jun 19, 2012)

the officeial page, bit crap atm 

http://www.microsoft.com/surface/en/us/about.aspx


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## Fez909 (Jun 19, 2012)

3mm thick detachable magnetic cover which is also a keyboard? Sounds great!


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## RaverDrew (Jun 19, 2012)

http://www.microsoft.com/surface/en/us/default.aspx


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## Kid_Eternity (Jun 19, 2012)

Clever. Puts the boot in both Apple and that Transformer Android tablet too...


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## ruffneck23 (Jun 19, 2012)

RaverDrew said:


> http://www.microsoft.com/surface/en/us/default.aspx


 

OI just cos yours has a pitcure on it


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## Kid_Eternity (Jun 19, 2012)

And there's a pro version...



> "This is surface for Windows 8 Pro."​


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## RaverDrew (Jun 19, 2012)

http://www.microsoft.com/global/surface/en/us/renderingassets/surfacespecsheet.pdf specs


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## Kid_Eternity (Jun 19, 2012)

"Shocking good, superbly Microsoft."


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## Kid_Eternity (Jun 19, 2012)

Right. Enuff of this guff, how much does this shit cost?


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## Fez909 (Jun 19, 2012)

This looks surprisingly good.


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## RaverDrew (Jun 19, 2012)

what's the battery life ?


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## elbows (Jun 19, 2012)

RaverDrew said:


> what's the battery life ?


 
Indeed. And the Pro (intel) version has vents, I hope the RT version doesn't otherwise Microsoft have learnt little in the last decade. 

There are thing to applaud and things to groan deeply about here.


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## Kid_Eternity (Jun 19, 2012)

There's many colours in the tablet rainbow...


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## elbows (Jun 19, 2012)

"It was important that the Windows software could rise to the surface."
Shit floats!


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## RaverDrew (Jun 19, 2012)

RT has an ARM processor, Pro has a Core i5


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## elbows (Jun 19, 2012)

"This sits in your hand very comfortably. You can use it all day in comfort. When you talk about the hardware fading to the background, it needs to not get in the way."



Empty words that will bite you in the ass if there are any battery, heat & noise issues.


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## Kid_Eternity (Jun 19, 2012)

Or what when that kickstand gets loose or falls off...


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## weltweit (Jun 19, 2012)

Lets talk fashion?

Their dress sense does not say super capable techno geek to me .... or even serious business person either!


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## elbows (Jun 19, 2012)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Or what when that kickstand gets loose or falls off...


 
Its got special hinges that sound like a luxury car door. And with that statement their presentation went beyond Apple parody.


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## Kid_Eternity (Jun 19, 2012)

> "Nothing stirs me more than Touch Cover."​


 
I bet his wife just loved seeing him say that.


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## elbows (Jun 19, 2012)

Finally after all these years, the successor to the zx spectrum keyboard I've been longing for


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## Kid_Eternity (Jun 19, 2012)

> "I love my wife, but Touch Cover is very important to me."​


 
Wow.


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## Kid_Eternity (Jun 19, 2012)

elbows said:


> Finally after all these years, the successor to the zx spectrum keyboard I've been longing for


 
Haha! That was exactly my thought upon seeing it!


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## weltweit (Jun 19, 2012)

Wonder what it connects to - and how ...


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## RaverDrew (Jun 19, 2012)

http://www.microsoft.com/surface/en/us/pixelsense.aspx


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## RaverDrew (Jun 19, 2012)

Price: "RT will be comparable with other ARM tablets, Pro will be closer to Ultrabooks. Windows RT Surface will be at the time of Windows 8 availability, and Pro will be 3 months later"


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## Kid_Eternity (Jun 19, 2012)

So...no battery life or pricing? What's the betting on it being more expensive with something like 3.5 hours battery?


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## GarfieldLeChat (Jun 19, 2012)

Well they screwed themselves then. Just like HP blackberry etc pricing the windows tablet at the same level as the iPad means only the most dedicated will go for the widows untested table with minimal apps over an iPad. 

When will these companies realise that a simple loss leader of taking a ton drop in price would sell bucket loads of there devices to the point of being a dominant force in the tablet market. 

Battery life needs to be over 8 hours or it's still born. And it won't be over 8 hours.  

So ms have seemingly lerned nothing from their last outing for tablets...


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## ruffneck23 (Jun 19, 2012)

Kid_Eternity said:


> So...no battery life or pricing? What's the betting on it being more expensive with something like 3.5 hours battery?


 
pricing is $250 - $699


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## elbows (Jun 19, 2012)

Kid_Eternity said:


> So...no battery life or pricing? What's the betting on it being more expensive with something like 3.5 hours battery?


 
I don't bet on it being more expensive, but I am suspicious of battery life, and what resolution is the RT screen?

Im a fan of the metro interface, but I don't think microsoft have done quite enough here to ensure that this won't be another tablet fail. If the battery life of the RT one isn't hideous then there is still a reasonable chance they will be ok, because in theory plenty of metro app developers for desktop/laptop windows will spring up, and many of them will find it acceptable to bother creating a RT version (depends on the app really, Im thinking mostly lightweight 'information consumption' stuff). Not sure about games though, especially as I didn't hear anything about gpu power today.

As for the Pro version, as someone who wasted money on the much older generation of tablets I am rather skeptical. There is a market for such a thing, but I fear it may not compare too well to other ultrabooks, and then we will get to find out how much of a premium the tablet aspect is worth it to this sort of market. And I am far more concerned about battery & heat issues with this model, it could be a disaster.


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## editor (Jun 19, 2012)

FridgeMagnet said:


> That's pretty uninspiring, but the first one was worse.


How's it any less uninspiring than anyone else holding a tablet?


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## editor (Jun 19, 2012)

Video promo. A bit odd.


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## editor (Jun 19, 2012)

Hang on. It's got rounded corners, it's rectangular, has narrow bezels, is black in colour and has a flat screen. Are Apple going to sue?


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## elbows (Jun 19, 2012)

editor said:


> How's it any less uninspiring than anyone else holding a tablet?


 
Ballmer's black hole of charisma facial expressions, or perhaps the same phenomenon that makes commentators say that bald people won't become PM.


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## elbows (Jun 19, 2012)

editor said:


> Video promo. A bit odd.


 
It can afford to be all arty and focus on form at this stage, because the big push to show off apps etc will come nearer to windows 8 release, and now its been announced they can find some early software 'partners' without worrying about them blabbing.


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## RaverDrew (Jun 19, 2012)

The Pro version will run any Windows apps


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## elbows (Jun 19, 2012)

RaverDrew said:


> The Pro version will run any Windows apps


 
Yeah and luckily we have the BBC on hand to help consumers get to grips with the potentially confusing differences between RT and Pro, not.




> The specifications mean the Surface tablets have bigger screens than the iPad and can also run standard software applications like Photoshop, but are heavier


 
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-18500954


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## elbows (Jun 19, 2012)

The Microsoft Smurfacepalm shows promise but hasn't quite perfected the art yet.


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## editor (Jun 19, 2012)

Built in keyboard, pen input and it can run Photoshop? Well, I'm interested.

(*title edited for clarity)


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## editor (Jun 19, 2012)

Initial hands on from Engadget is positive: 


> None of this might make sense until you touch one yourself, but it's our job to at least help you understand: the Surface really is as rigid and lightweight as Microsoft's executive team promised us it would be. The magnesium casing makes it wholly inflexible, and we mean that in the best possible way. As thin and light as it is (9.3mm / 1.5 pounds, to be exact), there isn't a hint of give in the whole chassis. Were it not for fear of scratching that 10-inch, full HD display, we wouldn't have too many qualms about accidentally dropping it: the magnesium is as smooth and scratch-resistant as it is sturdy. Heck, even after dozens of tech writers picked it up, we didn't notice any fingerprints.


http://www.engadget.com/2012/06/18/hands-on-with-microsoft-surface-for-windows-rt/


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## elbows (Jun 19, 2012)

Thats the RT version, the Pro one stands every chance of being a poor compromise between an ultrabook and a tablet.

And even for the saner RT version, I refuse to be enthusiastic until it is demonstrated that Windows RT doesn't eat battery. Failure of Microsoft to answer journalists questions about battery life fills me with dread.

Also the screen res is somewhat underwhelming. And someone noticed that they didn't mention anything about mobile data connectivity.

Bah.


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## joustmaster (Jun 19, 2012)

looks difficult to use from a bed


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## maldwyn (Jun 19, 2012)

It looks more of a touch screen laptop than a tablet. Why be coy about price and battery life unless it's something you're embarrassed about.

Come on MS take a loss and kick start some competition by making it £100 cheaper than the iPad.


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## ruffneck23 (Jun 19, 2012)

they said last night the prices will start at $249 for the lower model , up to $699 for the top model , thats not really coy..

but its too much ime in the world flooded with tablets


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## maldwyn (Jun 19, 2012)

I must have missed that bit on the pricing, what with being tired and in need of my bed - hardly a euro-friendly time of day for making big announcements.


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## Crispy (Jun 19, 2012)

The hardware looks very nice (the ARM one anyway). The Metro interface looks very nice. I think MS stand a chance with this platform. I just wish they'd had the balls to keep the desktop and tablet OS separate. Two similar devices, with similar names, running similar-looking but really very different capability systems. It's confusing and dilutes the idea.


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## maldwyn (Jun 19, 2012)

ruffneck23 said:


> they said last night the prices will start at $249 for the lower model , up to $699 for the top model , thats not really coy..


I'm confused now - no confirmation just speculation?


> The company did not reveal pricing or release dates but at the event Sinofsky said it would be "priced like comparable tablets." Milanesi said she expected the Surface to cost less than $699 (£446) in the US and be launched before the all-important Christmas selling season.
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2012/jun/19/microsoft-surface-windows-8-tablets


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## Lazy Llama (Jun 19, 2012)

I'd imagine Microsoft's hardware partners will be pretty hacked off. Anything they release will have to include a paid-for Windows license, unlike the Microsoft version. A potentially dangerous tactic when some of them already make Android tablets.

When Microsoft last did a "Anyone can make one, but here's ours", it was the Zune. Didn't see many others.


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## ruffneck23 (Jun 19, 2012)

I was watching the live thing from pc advisor as it was happening and one of the things that was posted was that price range, now im wondering if it was just them saying that or M$ , sorry for the confusion , but if its helps im more confused now


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## Kid_Eternity (Jun 19, 2012)

editor said:


> Built in keyboard, pen input and it can run Photoshop? Well, I'm interested.
> 
> (*title edited for clarity)



And now as inspiring as the devices themselves. I see what you did there.


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## editor (Jun 19, 2012)

Kid_Eternity said:


> And now as inspiring as the devices themselves. I see what you did there.


I'm sorry but I've really no idea what you mean. I changed the title so there wouldn't be any duplicate threads.


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## weltweit (Jun 19, 2012)

Why would I want one?


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## editor (Jun 19, 2012)

weltweit said:


> Why would I want one?


Because you want to run full desktop apps on a tablet? Because you like the snazzy side out keyboard? I dunno. Do you want a tablet at all?


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## magneze (Jun 19, 2012)

The keynote is funny. Full of hubris. First demo goes wrong too. Great stuff.


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## weltweit (Jun 19, 2012)

editor said:


> Because you want to run full desktop apps on a tablet? Because you like the snazzy side out keyboard? I dunno. Do you want a tablet at all?


No, I don't think I do but I am worried I may be becoming a luddite, I mean I don't have a smart phone, a tablet or a netbook, nor facebook, google+ etc - I just have a fast desktop.


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## beesonthewhatnow (Jun 19, 2012)

I still think that Apple got it right with regards to the aspect ratio of the screen. Widescreen just looks odd in a tablet.


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## gabi (Jun 19, 2012)

Why does it have a keyboard? Doesnt that make it a 'laptop' not a 'tablet'?


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## TitanSound (Jun 19, 2012)

gabi said:


> Why does it have a keyboard? Doesnt that make it a 'laptop' not a 'tablet'?


 
I think it's a really clever idea. A magnetic cover with an integrated keyboard. You don't have to use it if you don't want to.


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## gabi (Jun 19, 2012)

But if you do want a keyboard wouldn't you just buy a laptop?


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## TitanSound (Jun 19, 2012)

gabi said:


> But if you do want a keyboard wouldn't you just buy a laptop?


 
No, because with a laptop you don't have the choice of taking the keyboard off.


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## editor (Jun 19, 2012)

gabi said:


> Why does it have a keyboard?


Because they're incredibly useful things and you don't have to take up half the screen with a virtual one when you're typing.


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## editor (Jun 19, 2012)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> I still think that Apple got it right with regards to the aspect ratio of the screen. Widescreen just looks odd in a tablet.


All the computer monitors in this house are widescreen.


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## beesonthewhatnow (Jun 19, 2012)

editor said:


> All the computer monitors in this house are widescreen.


Yep. Now read my post again, paying particular attention to the words "in a tablet"


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## Crispy (Jun 19, 2012)

If it's designed to be used in portrait and landscape orientations, then 16:9 is too skinny for portrait. If it's only for landscape, then 16:9 is ok.

Note: I still find it a bit odd that so many computers with widescreens are sold for primary use as document editing tools, when most documents are portrait. When I see sparrow running Word on her 16:10 laptop screen, about a third of the usuable vertical space is taken up by toolbars. An exclusively portrait screen would be horrible for video or games, so 4:3 (or heck, even square) makes much more sense as a compromise.


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## stuff_it (Jun 19, 2012)

Crispy said:


> It won't be a touchscreen xbox. The games industry is notoriously leaky and we would've heard about it already.


TBF though that would be pretty sick - a cross between a handheld game machine and a tablet perhaps to compete with the handheld wii. That would probably actually be a game changer as loads of parents would think to buy that rather than a purely games machine if the price was right.


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## editor (Jun 19, 2012)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> Yep. Now read my post again, paying particular attention to the words "in a tablet"


I was aware of that. I'm not sure why you view a tablet as being something complete different when you're viewing content on a screen. Many laptops are also widescreen, as are almost all TVs. You've got to move with the times, daddy-o!


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## stuff_it (Jun 19, 2012)

Kid_Eternity said:


>


http://houseofantiquehardware.com/s.nl/ctype.KB/it.I/id.3165/KB.70/.f?sc=18&category=2



> GENERAL - PVD Finish
> Q: What is a PVD finish?
> 
> A: PVD stands for physical vapor deposition which is a manufacturing process that creates a very durable finish which looks like highly polished brass.
> ...


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## editor (Jun 19, 2012)

There's a hands on (pre)review here:


> *Early verdict*
> 
> It's a surprise that Microsoft created its own tablet, but it's done a more than decent job of it; far more creative and polished than many Android tablets.
> Microsoft has to get the price right – the current thinking is comparable with iPad and 10-inch Android tablets for Surface RT rather than with the 7-inch Kindle Fire – and battery life has to be good.
> ...


 
http://www.techradar.com/reviews/pc...e-tablet-1085839/review/page:2#articleContent

It's going to be all about price, methinks.


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## editor (Jun 19, 2012)

I was starting to seriously mull over buying an Asus Transformer, but this tablet has certainly piqued my interest.


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## Crispy (Jun 19, 2012)

editor said:


> I was aware of that. I'm not sure why you view a tablet as being something complete different when you're viewing content on a screen. Many laptops are also widescreen, as are almost all TVs. You've got to move with the times, daddy-o!


A tablet is different because (if the system supports it - I don't know about windows RT) it can be used in portrait and widescreen orientations. 9:16 is uncomfortably skinny. TVs are not used for the same things as tablets, so cannot be compared. Laptops are hindered by their 16:9 screens, as I mentioned upthread. I wish they still made 4:3 ones.


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## beesonthewhatnow (Jun 19, 2012)

editor said:


> I was aware of that. I'm not sure why you view a tablet as being something complete different when you're viewing content on a screen. Many laptops are also widescreen, as are almost all TVs. You've got to move with the times, daddy-o!


Youre missing the point. You don't hold a screen. Nor do you have a virtual keyboard filling large amounts of it.


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## editor (Jun 19, 2012)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> Youre missing the point. You don't hold a screen. Nor do you have a virtual keyboard filling large amounts of it.


Except the Surface has both a stand and a separate keyboard.


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## editor (Jun 19, 2012)

Crispy said:


> A tablet is different because (if the system supports it - I don't know about windows RT) it can be used in portrait and widescreen orientations. 9:16 is uncomfortably skinny. TVs are not used for the same things as tablets, so cannot be compared. Laptops are hindered by their 16:9 screens, as I mentioned upthread. I wish they still made 4:3 ones.


Most people use their tablets for watching TV/movies.


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## pinkmonkey (Jun 19, 2012)

Crispy said:


> If it's designed to be used in portrait and landscape orientations, then 16:9 is too skinny for portrait. If it's only for landscape, then 16:9 is ok.
> 
> Note: I still find it a bit odd that so many computers with widescreens are sold for primary use as document editing tools, when most documents are portrait. When I see sparrow running Word on her 16:10 laptop screen, about a third of the usuable vertical space is taken up by toolbars. An exclusively portrait screen would be horrible for video or games, so 4:3 (or heck, even square) makes much more sense as a compromise.


 
I think widescreens must be designed for shoe designers, they are perfect for me and the shoe fits on the screen just fine (until I'm designing long leg boots, that is).

Anyway, tablet that runs photoshop (and Illustrator as well I guess) with keyboard (anyone who uses these progs intensively will know how important a keyboard is, for the shortcuts).  Just because of this, it sounds very interesting.


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## Quartz (Jun 19, 2012)

Crispy said:


> A tablet is different because (if the system supports it - I don't know about windows RT) it can be used in portrait and widescreen orientations. 9:16 is uncomfortably skinny.


 
That's about the same ratio as foolscap paper, isn't it?


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## Crispy (Jun 19, 2012)

editor said:


> Except the Surface has both a stand and a separate


optional





> keyboard.





editor said:


> Most people use their tablets for


sometimes





> watching TV/movies.


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## beesonthewhatnow (Jun 19, 2012)

editor said:


> Except the Surface has both a stand and a separate keyboard.


At which point it's become a small laptop.

For tablet use, a 4:3 screen just seems better suited. All these latest tablets do is show how Apple got the design aspect right first time.


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## editor (Jun 19, 2012)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> For tablet use, a 4:3 screen just seems better suited.


Unless you want to watch movies or view the HD video your camera has just recorded.


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## Crispy (Jun 19, 2012)

Quartz said:


> That's about the same ratio as foolscap paper, isn't it?


"foolscap" is pretty outdated, but that has a ratio of 1.58. 16:9 is 1.77, so is quite a bit more skinny. The much more common ISO A sizes (A4, A3 etc) are 1.41 and 4:3 screens are 1.33


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## editor (Jun 19, 2012)

Crispy said:


> optional
> sometimes


So there is no 'better' size: it's up to the consumer's preferences.


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## beesonthewhatnow (Jun 19, 2012)

editor said:


> So there is no 'better' size: it's up to the consumer's preferences.


Well, obviously. But I'd still argue that as a starting point for a device with the greatest potential number of uses, 4:3 is the way to go.


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## editor (Jun 19, 2012)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> Well, obviously. But I'd still argue that as a starting point for a device with the greatest potential number of uses, 4:3 is the way to go.


But not everyone buys a tablet for "greatest potential number of uses."

They buy the one that suits their needs, which are more often than not far less demanding - and if they're into viewing movies, a 16:9 screen is a far better proposition.


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## FridgeMagnet (Jun 19, 2012)

The only bad thing about my 11" Air is the 16:9 screen, really, and I'm not alone thinking that - there were a lot of complaints when they came out with it, and there still are, I imagine. 16:9 _on a small screen_ is not a useful ratio for using any app, apart from maybe one with big side toolbars or huge palettes (larger than image editing apps). You can't maximise windows because then they are too shallow proportionately - most software windows not laid out appropriately. So you end up reducing them in width but keeping them at full height, which means you have a useless slice of screen on the side that's too small for anything much.

This isn't so much of a problem with large 16:9 screens, as they're big enough to hold lots of whole windows at any ratio you like. I almost never maximise anything on my 27", there's no point.

I spend about 0.1% of the time I spend on my iPad watching video, incidentally. Mostly it's probably browsing, for which 16:9, as mentioned above, is crap.


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## Kid_Eternity (Jun 19, 2012)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> I still think that Apple got it right with regards to the aspect ratio of the screen. Widescreen just looks odd in a tablet.



Have to say I agree, didn't like the iPad screen originally but seeing widescreen ones changed my mind...


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## Kid_Eternity (Jun 19, 2012)

magneze said:


> The keynote is funny. Full of hubris. First demo goes wrong too. Great stuff.



They chose a high risk event strategy with all their attempts to out Apple Apple...risky stuff if something goes wrong (as Apple found out during the iPhone 4/launch event) or the product doesn't meet expectations. All that I get more turned on by this than my wife language probably didn't help either!


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## Kid_Eternity (Jun 19, 2012)

TitanSound said:


> I think it's a really clever idea. A magnetic cover with an integrated keyboard. You don't have to use it if you don't want to.



Agreed that's a very neat solution. I expect iPad and Android tablet makers are busily drafting their own version. This cover is far nicer than that stupid smart case Apple just released too.


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## c01642 (Jun 19, 2012)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> Well, obviously. But I'd still argue that as a starting point for a device with the greatest potential number of uses, 4:3 is the way to go.


 
I would argue that 16:9 is so much better and 4:3 just seems dated to me but its whatever takes you fancy.


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## Kid_Eternity (Jun 19, 2012)

stuff_it said:


> TBF though that would be pretty sick - a cross between a handheld game machine and a tablet perhaps to compete with the handheld wii. That would probably actually be a game changer as loads of parents would think to buy that rather than a purely games machine if the price was right.



Check out the thread on Smart Glass in the games forum.


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## Crispy (Jun 19, 2012)

c01642 said:


> I would argue that 16:9 is so much better and 4:3 just seems dated to me


Could you make that argument?


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## Kid_Eternity (Jun 19, 2012)

editor said:


> Unless you want to watch movies or view the HD video your camera has just recorded.



I used to watch widescreen VHS on my old 4:3 CRT all the time, black borders aren't as big a deal as you think once you're absorbed in the content..


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## beesonthewhatnow (Jun 19, 2012)

editor said:


> But not everyone buys a tablet for "greatest potential number of uses."
> 
> They buy the one that suits their needs, which are more often than not far less demanding - and if they're into viewing movies, a 16:9 screen is a far better proposition.


Surely the whole point of a tablet is that its a multi use thing? If all you want to do is watch films get a dedicated portable media player. 

Buying a tablet to simply watch films on strikes me as daft as buying an iPhone just to make calls on.


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## Kid_Eternity (Jun 19, 2012)

FridgeMagnet said:


> The only bad thing about my 11" Air is the 16:9 screen, really, and I'm not alone thinking that - there were a lot of complaints when they came out with it, and there still are, I imagine. 16:9 _on a small screen_ is not a useful ratio for using any app, apart from maybe one with big side toolbars or huge palettes (larger than image editing apps). You can't maximise windows because then they are too shallow proportionately - most software windows not laid out appropriately. So you end up reducing them in width but keeping them at full height, which means you have a useless slice of screen on the side that's too small for anything much.
> 
> This isn't so much of a problem with large 16:9 screens, as they're big enough to hold lots of whole windows at any ratio you like. I almost never maximise anything on my 27", there's no point.
> 
> I spend about 0.1% of the time I spend on my iPad watching video, incidentally. Mostly it's probably browsing, for which 16:9, as mentioned above, is crap.



I've always thought that's why Apple make such a big deal about full screen views in apps. A way of addressing the issue of screen ratio without admitting its a problem?


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## Crispy (Jun 19, 2012)

Comparing a 16:9 and 4:3 screen of identical diagonal size, the 16:9 is 9% wider, which only makes a little difference when viewing movies. The 4:3 is 22% taller, which makes a big difference when viewing vertical content (ie webpages, documents, lists)


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## editor (Jun 19, 2012)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> Surely the whole point of a tablet is that its a multi use thing? If all you want to do is watch films get a dedicated portable media player.


Sure: and it's always a compromise, depending on a user's needs. If they're more interested in watching movies and films, 16:9 is ideal. if they're more interested in writing and reading in portrait format, then 4:3 is a better choice. I haven't got much of a problem with either.


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## editor (Jun 19, 2012)

Crispy said:


> Comparing a 16:9 and 4:3 screen of identical diagonal size, the 16:9 is 9% wider, which only makes a little difference when viewing movies. The 4:3 is 22% taller, which makes a big difference when viewing vertical content (ie webpages, documents, lists)


Most tablets dynamically resize the text to fit the screen, so I don't think it's such an issue.


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## RaverDrew (Jun 19, 2012)

editor said:


> Most people use their tablets for watching TV/movies.


 
Really ? 

Of all the people I know who own a tablet, not one of them regularly uses it for watching content longer than your average youtube video.

It's really not practical.


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## TitanSound (Jun 19, 2012)

RaverDrew said:


> Really ?
> 
> Of all the people I know who own a tablet, not one of them regularly uses it for watching content longer than your average youtube video.
> 
> It's really not practical.


 
I've noticed a huge increase in people on the tube watching something or the other using an iPad.


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## editor (Jun 19, 2012)

RaverDrew said:


> Really ?


Not sure what the length has to do with it. If you're watching videos, you're watching videos.


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## c01642 (Jun 19, 2012)

Crispy said:


> Could you make that argument?


 
I have a Dell tablet with a 16:10 ratio that i use for wireless surveys, i import maps or plans which fit full screen in the ratio much better than 4:3 as most documents i get are saved in a similar ratio. When i want to write notes i run onenote usually in potrait and it feels like i have a normal notepad and any video i watch fit much better. Everything i do works well on this screen ratio and i cant see what benefits 4:3 would have for me.


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## elbows (Jun 19, 2012)

Lazy Llama said:


> I'd imagine Microsoft's hardware partners will be pretty hacked off. Anything they release will have to include a paid-for Windows license, unlike the Microsoft version. A potentially dangerous tactic when some of them already make Android tablets.
> 
> When Microsoft last did a "Anyone can make one, but here's ours", it was the Zune. Didn't see many others.


 
Thats a main reason I don't expect the price to be fantastic, they don't want to push their hardware partners too far.


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## elbows (Jun 19, 2012)

Thanks to my awful experience with the Kinect SDK, and Microsofts dubious failure to mention battery life yesterday, my plans to abandon Apple lie in tatters. Time to renew my Apple dev subscription and to forget about the competition for a while. Im not pleased its turned out this way, I wanted to do Metro stuff but I'd have to be crazy to risk putting my efforts into that given what is unfolding before our eyes. I'll reconsider if the battery of the RT one turns out not to suck.


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## Crispy (Jun 19, 2012)

c01642 said:


> I have a Dell tablet with a 16:10 ratio that i use for wireless surveys, i import maps or plans which fit full screen in the ratio much better than 4:3 as most documents i get are saved in a similar ratio. When i want to write notes i run onenote usually in potrait and it feels like i have a normal notepad and any video i watch fit much better. Everything i do works well on this screen ratio and i cant see what benefits 4:3 would have for me.


Ah, well that makes some sense. 16:10 is a little better than 16:9. 6% and 13% wider/shorter than 4:3, as opposed to 9% and 22%. Still, an A_x_ drawing is larger , zoomed to fit, on a 4:3 screen of same diagonal width as a 16:10 one (and larger still than on a 16:9 screen)


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## Lazy Llama (Jun 19, 2012)

That magnetic keyboard, does it work in portrait mode as well as landscape?


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## Crispy (Jun 19, 2012)

Lazy Llama said:


> That magnetic keyboard, does it work in portrait mode as well as landscape?


Can't find any mention, although the hinge part is narrower than the full width, so that might be a reason why.


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## bmd (Jun 19, 2012)

Kid_Eternity said:


> A tablet.


 
And not a fuck was given that day.


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## elbows (Jun 19, 2012)

Crispy said:


> Can't find any mention, although the hinge part is narrower than the full width, so that might be a reason why.


 
I think I saw some evidence of a keyboard connector on the short side, but I wasn't paying complete attention by that late hour.


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## elbows (Jun 19, 2012)

Scratch that, there is a connector but its too far down the side, and the stand doesn't make any sense in portrait mode.


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## TopCat (Jun 19, 2012)

it has USB and SD card slot!


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## editor (Jun 19, 2012)

TopCat said:


> it has USB and SD card slot!


Hai. Steve Jobs said we didn't need those.


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## Kid_Eternity (Jun 19, 2012)

TitanSound said:


> I've noticed a huge increase in people on the tube watching something or the other using an iPad.



Indeed I see iPads now pretty much all the time. Can't see anyone pulling out this Surface on the bus though, seems like its aimed at the Thinkpad/business/suited road warrior type crowd in a way...


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## Kid_Eternity (Jun 19, 2012)

TopCat said:


> it has USB and SD card slot!



Totally awesome in this mobile friendly wireless world we live in!!


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## editor (Jun 19, 2012)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Totally awesome in this mobile friendly wireless world we live in!!


You're not _really_ going to try and spin the reality distortion field into insisting that USB sockets and SD card slots aren't actually still incredibly useful things?


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## editor (Jun 19, 2012)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Indeed I see iPads now pretty much all the time. Can't see anyone pulling out this Surface on the bus though, seems like its aimed at the Thinkpad/business/suited road warrior type crowd in a way...


Don't Thinkpad/business/suited road warrior types ever need to use their devices on the bus then?


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## stuff_it (Jun 19, 2012)

editor said:


> Don't Thinkpad/business/suited road warrior types ever need to use their devices on the bus then?


They would use it as an extra big sat nav in their Mondeo of course. Do keep up.


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## Kid_Eternity (Jun 19, 2012)

editor said:


> You're not _really_ going to try and spin the reality distortion field into insisting that USB sockets and SD card slots aren't actually still incredibly useful things?



You're not going to move the goal posts on what I said to troll yet another thread are you?


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## gabi (Jun 19, 2012)

So this thing's USP is the fact that it's got a keyboard from what I can gather..? Which returns me the point I made earlier - why the hell not just buy a laptop if you want a keyboard so badly. surely the cool thing about a tablet is precisely the fact that it's not got a keyboard, its got a touch screen. confused.

crap article on the gruniad, but i kinda agree with her



> Surface will operate on Windows software, have a removable keyboard and come with a trackpad (a snazzy mouse alternative). All the things the important non-Tetris-playing professional needs. In other words, for around £500, you'll have a smaller laptop.


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## editor (Jun 19, 2012)

Kid_Eternity said:


> You're not going to move the goal posts on what I said to troll yet another thread are you?


Then explain what you meant by your comment instead of bleating on about 'trolling' in your usual 'don't understand what the word means' way.


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## editor (Jun 19, 2012)

gabi said:


> So this thing's USP is the fact that it's got a keyboard from what I can gather..?


It's a tablet running a brand new tablet-optimised OS that can run industry standard apps like Photoshop, as well as tons of business-specific software not available on other platforms. _That_ is its USP.


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## gabi (Jun 19, 2012)

editor said:


> It's a tablet running a brand new tablet-optimised OS that can run industry standard apps like Photoshop, as well as tons of business-specific software not available on other platforms. _That_ is its USP.


 
Sorry to labour this point, but why would I want to run Photoshop on a tablet with a keyboard when I can run it faster, more cheaply and with less fuss on a decent laptop? I'm really not getting it.


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## Hocus Eye. (Jun 19, 2012)

gabi said:


> Sorry to labour this point, but why would I want to run Photoshop on a tablet with a keyboard when I can run it faster, more cheaply and with less fuss on a decent laptop? I'm really not getting it.


I could see a use for that as an adjunct to a camera. Travelling back from a photo expedition examining and editing the shots before you get home to the main computer. It would take up less room in your camera bag than a full sized laptop.


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## editor (Jun 19, 2012)

gabi said:


> Sorry to labour this point, but why would I want to run Photoshop on a tablet with a keyboard when I can run it faster, more cheaply and with less fuss on a decent laptop? I'm really not getting it.


Smaller, faster, lighter, quicker (if W8 works as advertised) and it's easier to show off pics on a tablet than a laptop.


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## elbows (Jun 19, 2012)

editor said:


> Smaller, faster, lighter, quicker (if W8 works as advertised) and it's easier to show off pics on a tablet than a laptop.


 
Faster and quicker eh 

But seriously, you know I am a great fan of the tablet form factor for a range of uses, but lets not get carried away with claims about speed here. ARM devices don't really compare to the laptop or desktop performance we are used to, its solid state storage and clever operating systems & app design that make the experience feel fast enough. We don't know quite how good Windows RT & related battery issues will be in yet, although for the sort of tablet apps we have seen to this point I would hope it will be at least acceptable.

And for the sake of clarity lets try to differentiate between the RT and Pro more often, especially when talking about what apps it can run. Many of your comments only apply to the Pro version.

In terms of performance the Pro version has potential, although the compromises required are making me suspect that nice Pro performance gains are going to have quite the downside when it comes to heat, battery life, and maybe weight (every pound counts when you hold a tablet). And I can hardly begin to judge how good the performance & compatibility will be without knowing how much RAM it has. We may end up in territory where it doesn't stack up well enough against other Ultrabooks, and people are left with the usual judgement about whether the advantages of having a tablet mode outweigh the downside, and how useable as a tablet it turns out to be.

For me the real leap of performance that this era offers really stems from Windows 8 and solid state drives. Some very nice laptops & ultrabooks should result, but its going to be quite some time before we can really judge whether the same can be said for tablets.


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## Kid_Eternity (Jun 19, 2012)

gabi said:


> So this thing's USP is the fact that it's got a keyboard from what I can gather..? Which returns me the point I made earlier - why the hell not just buy a laptop if you want a keyboard so badly. surely the cool thing about a tablet is precisely the fact that it's not got a keyboard, its got a touch screen. confused.
> 
> crap article on the gruniad, but i kinda agree with her


 
The pro version seems a little redundant to me, the tablet is interesting. Why not just get a proper ultrabook if you want that kind of power, they're just as mobile and easy to hand around to show off your work. I reckon MS may on to a winner with the lower end/ tablet Surface if they can get the marketing and apps right. They could actually split the Android market too and take second behind Apple.


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## elbows (Jun 19, 2012)

Kid_Eternity said:


> The pro version seems a little redundant to me, the tablet is interesting. Why not just get a proper ultrabook if you want that kind of power, they're just as mobile and easy to hand around to show off your work. I reckon MS may on to a winner with the lower end/ tablet Surface if they can get the marketing and apps right. They could actually split the Android market too and take second behind Apple.


 
Its simply not true that an ultrabook is just as easy to hand around to show off your work.

On a related note, I was pleased to hear that the person I sold my iPad 1 to was very happy that when he gave it to his mother, she was able to get the grandchildren to play scrabble with her using it, something he suggested they seemed uninterested in doing using the old fashioned physical version, and something that wouldn't work quite so well on a laptop/ultrabook.

I harp on about this because given that despite hefty iPad sales the tablet form factor is still considered something of a gimmick to many, I don't think we should avoid reiterating the various stuff that the form factor has actually proved to be great for. And its therefore no surprise that some people will want some kind of convertible option to get the best of both worlds.

Personally as you can tell from previous posts, as an old-school tablet owner in the past I have quite the collection of fears about the Pro version, and I would be most surprised if none of these fears end up being justified. Im simply not convinced we can yet put that level of power in our hands without some kind of discomfort or annoyance, whether it be heat, weight, sound, battery or lack of performance compared to other ultrabooks.


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## Kid_Eternity (Jun 19, 2012)

elbows said:


> Its simply not true that an ultrabook is just as easy to hand around to show off your work.
> 
> On a related note, I was pleased to hear that the person I sold my iPad 1 to was very happy that when he gave it to his mother, she was able to get the grandchildren to play scrabble with her using it, something he suggested they seemed uninterested in doing using the old fashioned physical version, and something that wouldn't work quite so well on a laptop/ultrabook.
> 
> ...


 
Well if you're a clumsy shit that may be true but we've been using ultrabooks at work to show stuff and it's never been hard work. Really you just hold the bottom and pass it around, all this tablets are great to show off design work sounds like pretentious Nathan Barley bullshit to me.


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## elbows (Jun 19, 2012)

I didn't claim it was hard work, I said a tablet was easier. It is easier, the only argument you can have is about quite how much easier or whether its worth the downsides. And that depends on the setup of the meeting and quite how many people you are passing it round to. I also found that people in meeting appreciated me not hiding behind a laptop screen, tablets have slightly more social grace than laptops, or at least they would if more people had one and I didn't feel like such a plonk when using one.

Screen size isn't always best suited to the task though.

Its certainly easier for me to show my mum stuff when sitting on the couch using a tablet than a laptop, and theres nothing Nathan Barley about that.


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## editor (Jun 19, 2012)

elbows said:


> Faster and quicker eh
> 
> But seriously, you know I am a great fan of the tablet form factor for a range of uses, but lets not get carried away with claims about speed here. ARM devices don't really compare to the laptop or desktop performance we are used to, its solid state storage and clever operating systems & app design that make the experience feel fast enough.


It's going to be faster than Windows 7.


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## elbows (Jun 19, 2012)

editor said:


> It's going to be faster than Windows 7.


 
A true statement that can go horribly wrong if not carefully coupled to the hardware spec, and again whether we are talking about RT or Pro. 

The preview releases of Windows 8 I've tried on a fast desktop with SSD leave me impressed. Its almost certain to bring a wide range of laptop-type devices into the realm of feeling like they can be switched on and off without too much in the way of tedious delay. This is one of the areas that made the sales reps at work very interested in tablets, although to be honest we can thank SSD more than Microsoft for things moving in the right direction on this front, although Microsoft have certainly saved themselves from Vista-type doom by finally concentrating on this area in recent years.

It offers them some hope of competing in the tablet market, but there is no way Im going to make any claims about speed of either Microsoft Surface just yet.


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## elbows (Jun 19, 2012)

editor said:


> It's a tablet running a brand new tablet-optimised OS that can run industry standard apps like Photoshop, as well as tons of business-specific software not available on other platforms. _That_ is its USP.


 
Sorry to be a bore but can I ask you and others to confirm that they understand the different between RT and Pro, and that the statement you made there only applies to Pro.


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## editor (Jun 19, 2012)

elbows said:


> Sorry to be a bore but can I ask you and others to confirm that they understand the different between RT and Pro, and that the statement you made there only applies to Pro.


You think the Windows RT tablet will boot up slower than a Windows 7 PC?


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## elbows (Jun 19, 2012)

editor said:


> You think the Windows RT tablet will boot up slower than a Windows 7 PC?


 
The statement you made that I was referring to was about what apps will run. When I talk of worries about differentiating between RT and Pro, app compatibility and consumer confusion about this are my primary concern.

I may have been somewhat unclear because I have plenty of other concerns as well, and they vary depending on whether we are talking about RT or Pro. Nowhere have I suggested that RT will boot more slowly than Windows 7, although again I admit I may have been talking about too many different things at once. When I speak of not wanting to make speed claims about either Microsoft Surface yet, its because I haven't seen much that would enable me to evaluate how well apps run, and because I consider speed issue to be related to battery issues, and battery is something I fret about. And for the Pro model, I don't know how much RAM it has, nor quite what peoples expectations are in terms of speed.


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## Kid_Eternity (Jun 19, 2012)

Anyone found any news on battery life yet?


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## Citizen66 (Jun 20, 2012)

TitanSound said:


> I think it's a really clever idea. A magnetic cover with an integrated keyboard.


 
I swear I saw some of those for sale in PC world just the other day...


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## elbows (Jun 20, 2012)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Anyone found any news on battery life yet?


 
I don't think you'll find any until Microsoft decide the time is right, I was looking at Windows RT tablets that other manufacturers have shown off, and neither of them would talk about battery life either.

It would not surprise me if Microsoft forbids such discussions until the Windows RT software is completely finalised, and the timing of when this code is actually finalised may not become public straight away either. If Microsoft have got WindowsRT 8 right then battery life for the RT tablet should be ok, but for all I know it may well be one of the areas they are still working on optimising, and thats a legit reason not to talk battery life right now. I hope thats the case rather than silence on the battery issue pointing at a failure in this area. We know that ARM hardware is capable of running for long enough, so any cockup with the Surface RT would point to either too small a battery being used or some bad operating system/application architecture issue that causes it to use too much CPU or GPU too often. Such a problem is possible in theory, but Microsoft must know that they have dropped the ball badly if they really allow such a thing to happen.

As for the Pro, as should be clear by now this is what really gets my fears going. Its got vents, so its going to be far more like a laptop than a tablet in terms of battery and some other stuff.

Worst case scenario: People end up disappointed or confused by RT app availability, or screen res, or (hopefully less likely) unforgivable battery issues. And people interested in Pro end up disappointed that in a number of areas its doesn't seem enough like the good stuff that recent tablets offers. And if thats the case then the performance and compatibility it offers for the price might lose its appeal in a similar way that old windows tablets did. Shouldn't be quite as bad as those old ones due to advances in screen, touch, battery, energy efficiency, weight over the last decade, but can still end up as an unappealing compromise, and really I still haven't seen anything that suggests x86 chips are really appropriate for tablets. Microsoft showed nothing yesterday that demonstrates otherwise, and Im sure there are several good reasons why they aren't releasing this model quickly.


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## editor (Jun 20, 2012)

There's some conjecture about battery life here: 


> The Windows RT version of Surface will ship with a 31.5 Watt-hour battery. That’s more powerful than the 25 Watt-hour battery Apple put in the iPad 2. If Microsoft plays its cards right, the Windows RT version of Surface might achieve similar battery life (about 10 hours of use on a full charge) or even a bit more. The Windows 8 Pro version of Surface will apparently ship with a 42 Watt-hour battery — that’s nearly identical to Apple’s most recent iPad. However, with an Intel processor, a Windows 8 Pro device is likely to come in under the third-generation iPad for battery life. Expect to get about six to eight hours of use from a Windows 8 Pro device — maybe enough for a full workday, but it’ll be a close thing.
> Read more: ​http://www.digitaltrends.com/mobile/microsofts-surface-tablet-do-we-have-an-ipad-killer​


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## elbows (Jun 20, 2012)

We can further speculate about the Surface Pro battery life by looking at this info about latest ultrabook processors, I think its quite likely to be a reasonable fit for the spec of the Surface Pro in many ways.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/5872/intel-dual-core-ivy-bridge-launch-and-ultrabook-review/6

Which suggests it will be quite ok if used lightly, but if pro users are expecting to run pro apps that actually tax the CPU etc quite heavily for hours at a time, then the battery can get used up in a few hours. This shouldn't be surprising, there is no great leap here that would make the Surface Pro experience any different than Ultrabooks when it comes to battery and running intensive apps.


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## Kid_Eternity (Jun 20, 2012)

File under pinch of salt, nothing official from MS then? This is reminding me of Palm a few years back with the Pre...big announcement, something interesting...newish direction. Lack of proper info on price, or when it's out. 

If Google or Apple pulled this crap they'd be crucified, why are MS getting a free pass I wonder?


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## elbows (Jun 20, 2012)

Some people moan about it, they are used to Microsoft behaving this way though. I've been as fair as I can to them by acknowledging its not a finished product quite yet.

You do rather overcook your ideas about tech companies getting crucified. Before the announcement you thought that opening the doors a few minutes late might have a meaningful impact. Don't let the '24 hour news cycle', the brief grumblings of people,  and the wanky internet tech bubble cloud out the broader picture. 

Yes by not announcing concrete detail on battery life, price or some other spec Microsoft lost the opportunity to get me to commit to exploring metro development at this point. But in the grand scheme of things I doubt this matters, I don't claim my developer plans are typical. I don't know if they've lost many potential purchasers who would have held off on buying some other kind of tablet, but will now rush out and buy something else because Microsoft didn't mention battery etc details. It seems more likely to me that people who have some interest are likely to reserve their judgement till the device is out and reviewed anyway. Personally I don't need to wait for battery info or till it comes out to know they've lost me as a potential hardware customer, since Im only interested in the RT version at this point, and the screen res doesn't sound good enough. I'll revisit this decision if they sell enough for it to interest me as a developer.


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## editor (Jun 20, 2012)

Kid_Eternity said:


> If Google or Apple pulled this crap they'd be crucified, why are MS getting a free pass I wonder?


Pulled what 'crap'? They've just offered a preview of their upcoming technology. Loads of tech companies do similar things all the time.


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## maldwyn (Jun 20, 2012)

Kid_Eternity said:


> If Google or Apple pulled this crap they'd be crucified, why are MS getting a free pass I wonder?


Google are forever showboating/trumpeting its products months before actual release (Glasses being most recent) - by which time I'm usually bored to death of hearing about them.


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## gabi (Jun 20, 2012)

Yeh. Google does it, Apple doesn't though. They'd never do something as half-arsed as this.


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## maldwyn (Jun 20, 2012)

gabi said:


> Yeh. Google does it, Apple doesn't though. They'd never do something as half-arsed as this.


It ships today...


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## maldwyn (Jun 20, 2012)

> Microsoft Surface: how the software giant got Apple envy


Guardian


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## gabi (Jun 20, 2012)

Comment from that article... hard to disagree. A totally pointless device.



> Looks like a small laptop to me.
> With a back rest.


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## magneze (Jun 20, 2012)

elbows said:


> The preview releases of Windows 8 I've tried on a fast desktop with SSD leave me impressed. Its almost certain to bring a wide range of laptop-type devices into the realm of feeling like they can be switched on and off without too much in the way of tedious delay. This is one of the areas that made the sales reps at work very interested in tablets, although to be honest we can thank SSD more than Microsoft for things moving in the right direction on this front, although Microsoft have certainly saved themselves from Vista-type doom by finally concentrating on this area in recent years.


I've compared the Windows 8 Preview Release to Windows 7 in VMs on the same base hardware. Windows 8 seems slower. I think the use of SSDs is masking what has always been Microsoft's problem with Windows.

Maybe the RT release will be better. It'll need to be otherwise it won't get anywhere near iOS.


----------



## magneze (Jun 20, 2012)

maldwyn said:


> Guardian


Microsoft apeing Apple? 80s/90s/00s revival at the Guardian. It has always been so.


----------



## c01642 (Jun 20, 2012)

magneze said:


> I've compared the Windows 8 Preview Release to Windows 7 in VMs on the same base hardware. Windows 8 seems slower. I think the use of SSDs is masking what has always been Microsoft's problem with Windows.
> 
> Maybe the RT release will be better. It'll need to be otherwise it won't get anywhere near iOS.


 
I have windows 8 and 7 on the same physical hardware, a Dell Latitude E6410 without a SSD drive, Windows 8 flies compared to 7. You really need to try it out on physical rather than VM as i didnt think much until i did it.


----------



## TitanSound (Jun 20, 2012)

Kid_Eternity said:


> File under pinch of salt, nothing official from MS then? This is reminding me of Palm a few years back with the Pre...big announcement, something interesting...newish direction. Lack of proper info on price, or when it's out.
> 
> If Google or Apple pulled this crap they'd be crucified, why are MS getting a free pass I wonder?


 
People feel sorry for them?


----------



## gabi (Jun 20, 2012)

It does feel a bit like when my dad decided to buy Nevermind when I was 14 in order to hang out with me tbh


----------



## editor (Jun 20, 2012)

gabi said:


> It does feel a bit like when my dad decided to buy Nevermind when I was 14 in order to hang out with me tbh


Keep rolling out the cliches, dude.  

Perhaps you need reminding of which company makes the best selling games console on the planet.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jun 20, 2012)

editor said:


> Keep rolling out the cliches, dude.
> 
> Perhaps you need reminding of which company makes the best selling games console on the planet.



It nearly didn't, Bill Gates had some stupid ideas for it which the team fought against.


----------



## editor (Jun 20, 2012)

Kid_Eternity said:


> It nearly didn't, Bill Gates had some stupid ideas for it which the team fought against.


Does that make the product any less successful or any less Microsoft?


----------



## Cid (Jun 20, 2012)

Will either version be able to run proper Windows based programmes?


----------



## editor (Jun 20, 2012)

The Pro version will run Photoshop etc. Which will be handy.



> Microsoft Surface with Windows 8 Pro
> Designed with work in mind, the Microsoft Surface with Windows 8 Pro has specifications that are comparable to a laptop.
> 
> It will run on the upcoming Windows 8 Pro operating system, a professional version of Windows 8 which can run both apps and traditional Windows programs. Popular Windows-based software like Microsoft Office, Adobe Photoshop and many more will be compatible.
> ...


http://www.which.co.uk/news/2012/06/microsoft-unveils-surface-tablet-with-windows-8-289017/


----------



## elbows (Jun 20, 2012)

editor said:


> The Pro version will run Photoshop etc. Which will be handy.


 
One handy to hold the stylus that might enable you to hit the right, tiny, user interface element.

One handy to bear the weight and heat of the device.

Two handy's to cover your ears, and one to gesticulate wildly the poor battery life when using intensive apps.

Sounds like the non-ARM version requires too many arms


----------



## Crispy (Jun 20, 2012)

With the pro, you'd unfold the cover and stand, and use it like a (very small) laptop to do your photoshopping. Then, in tablet mode you'd be running a Metro app to show off your finished work, assuming the battery hasn't died.


----------



## Cid (Jun 20, 2012)

How is a tablet that runs programmes that are actually useful anything other than a brilliant development? The only reason I've yet to buy one is that, as a designer, they're basically useful toys. Granted I'll probably skip the first gen and keep an eye on battery etc, but to think this doesn't have potential is just wrong.


----------



## elbows (Jun 20, 2012)

Crispy said:


> With the pro, you'd unfold the cover and stand, and use it like a (very small) laptop to do your photoshopping. Then, in tablet mode you'd be running a Metro app to show off your finished work, assuming the battery hasn't died.


 
True. Which leaves us with the question as to whether any price/performance compromise compared to other ultra books is worth it to many people.

And screen size/density is an issue which will only be solved via the slow march towards resolution-independence in UI design.


----------



## Crispy (Jun 20, 2012)

It has massive potential in the business market, which still has all that crufty legacy and custom software that _requires_ desktop windows. You get the benefits of the tablet form factor and a matching touch UI, plus a proper laptop in the background. A 10 inch laptop is not much fun for long periods, mind, but it's enough if you just have to use a handful of tools now and then. However, if the pro has a laptop battery life, heat and weight, then it will be used like a laptop.


----------



## elbows (Jun 20, 2012)

Cid said:


> How is a tablet that runs programmes that are actually useful anything other than a brilliant development? The only reason I've yet to buy one is that, as a designer, they're basically useful toys. Granted I'll probably skip the first gen and keep an eye on battery etc, but to think this doesn't have potential is just wrong.


 
Its got potential, the question is whether the tech is quite there yet, and how much of a niche this stuff will be. If the pen is pressure-sensitive then that opens up an existing niche (think Wacom Cintiq), but Imstill concerned about weight and heat.

This leads me into potentially batshit alternative territory. Maybe Id rather have a powerful laptop where the hot & fast stuff lies under the keyboard, and the screen can be detached and used as a less powerful tablet. Problem with this possibility is increased price, and failure of device as a whole to meet todays 'slim' requirements.


----------



## editor (Jun 20, 2012)

elbows said:


> One handy to hold the stylus that might enable you to hit the right, tiny, user interface element.
> 
> One handy to bear the weight and heat of the device.
> 
> ...


You are aware that the tablet comes with an optional keyboard, trackpad and 600dpi pen, yes?

And you could just plug it into a monitor for serious work.


----------



## editor (Jun 20, 2012)

elbows said:


> This leads me into potentially batshit alternative territory. Maybe Id rather have a powerful laptop where the hot & fast stuff lies under the keyboard, and the screen can be detached and used as a less powerful tablet. Problem with this possibility is increased price, and failure of device as a whole to meet todays 'slim' requirements.


That's already been done. It didn't catch on.






http://www.techrockstar.com/2010/01/06/lenovo-intros-u1-hybrid-laptop-with-detachable-tablet-screen/


----------



## Cid (Jun 20, 2012)

In the design industries it would certainly be useful, and those are far from niche... It does depend which programmes it runs and how well, whether the stylus is good etc, but it could fill a pretty big gap in the tablet market.


----------



## elbows (Jun 20, 2012)

editor said:


> That's already been done. It didn't catch on.
> 
> http://www.techrockstar.com/2010/01/06/lenovo-intros-u1-hybrid-laptop-with-detachable-tablet-screen/



Im not suggesting its a winning idea, Im just trying to play around with some of the clear theoretical drawbacks of the Surface Pro.

I don't completely write off any of these possibilities for the future since we are about to get a more suitable operating system, and the hardware will continue to improve over time.


----------



## elbows (Jun 20, 2012)

Cid said:


> In the design industries it would certainly be useful, and those are far from niche... It does depend which programmes it runs and how well, whether the stylus is good etc, but it could fill a pretty big gap in the tablet market.


 
I threw money into that gap in the past and it was a disaster so please forgive my skepticism at this stage.


----------



## elbows (Jun 20, 2012)

editor said:


> You are aware that the tablet comes with an optional keyboard, trackpad and 600dpi pen, yes?
> 
> And you could just plug it into a monitor for serious work.


 
No shit. The question is whether these things really compliment the tablet aspect or distract from it in a way not entirely dissimilar to failed windows tablets of the past. Windows 8 & ultrabook push things in the right direction, but by how much?

You know I like to waffle on about how Apple got where they are today by choosing a different set of compromises to everyone else. So I don't actually mean to complain about other companies for experimenting with different set of compromises, I'm glad they are, but I won't get excited unless they actually sell loads.

How big is the ultrabook market these days?


----------



## gabi (Jun 20, 2012)

We've tried using tablets in design meetings and no, they don't work. Printed boards still do the business.


----------



## Crispy (Jun 20, 2012)

I would like an A3-sized, desk-mounted, 300dpi, multi-touch and pressure-sensitive stylus tabletputer please.


----------



## Cid (Jun 20, 2012)

elbows said:


> I threw money into that gap in the past and it was a disaster so please forgive my skepticism at this stage.


 
Since you're talking about how Apple got where they are today, remember that quite a big part of that was based on that market.



gabi said:


> We've tried using tablets in design meetings and no, they don't work. Printed boards still do the business.


 
If you're in your own office.


----------



## c01642 (Jun 20, 2012)

Crispy said:


> I would like an A3-sized, desk-mounted, 300dpi, multi-touch and pressure-sensitive stylus tabletputer please.


 
64 point touch enough?  im not sure if it has a pen though.

http://www.engadget.com/2012/06/03/acer-announces-windows-8-all-in-one-u-series-at-computex-2012/
http://news.softpedia.com/news/Acer-s-7600U-All-In-One-in-Action-Video-273863.shtml


----------



## editor (Jun 20, 2012)

elbows said:


> How big is the ultrabook market these days?


Pretty damn big.
http://www.zdnet.com/blog/btl/dell-...n-expected-who-needs-a-tablet-after-all/75978


----------



## Crispy (Jun 20, 2012)

Getting there. I bet it's only a 1080p screen though - a miserable 81dpi. I would use such a machine for technical drawing - high fidelity linework is a must.


----------



## editor (Jun 20, 2012)

Crispy said:


> I would like an A3-sized, desk-mounted, 300dpi, multi-touch and pressure-sensitive stylus tabletputer please.


One of these do?
http://www.wacom.eu/index2.asp?lang=en&pid=9233


----------



## Crispy (Jun 20, 2012)

editor said:


> One of these do?
> http://www.wacom.eu/index2.asp?lang=en&pid=9233


Also very close  More pixles though please!
And then convince my boss to buy one


----------



## elbows (Jun 20, 2012)

Ballmer apparently has an 80 inch windows 8 touchscreen on his wall.

http://www.businessinsider.com/stev...windows-8-tablet-hanging-in-his-office-2012-5


----------



## Crispy (Jun 20, 2012)

Very ergonomic I'm sure.


----------



## junglevip (Jun 20, 2012)

Brrr freezing cold


----------



## elbows (Jun 20, 2012)

Crispy said:


> Very ergonomic I'm sure.


 
In this case they want it to be that way because Microsoft is partially powered by sweat harvested from Ballmers armpits.


----------



## editor (Jun 20, 2012)

I'd rather see someone with emotions getting excited and passionate than some finely-tuned, anodyne, soulless, God awful super-slick slab of PR mulch.

That's not to say that he still isn't a twat, btw.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jun 20, 2012)

editor said:


> Does that make the product any less successful or any less Microsoft?



Eh?


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jun 20, 2012)

Crispy said:


> I would like an A3-sized, desk-mounted, 300dpi, multi-touch and pressure-sensitive stylus tabletputer please.



I'll have one of them if they're going.


----------



## elbows (Jun 20, 2012)

editor said:


> I'd rather see someone with emotions getting excited and passionate than some finely-tuned, anodyne, soulless, God awful super-slick slab of PR mulch.
> 
> That's not to say that he still isn't a twat, btw.


 
Come on, they are both forms of corporate PR, its no more or less genuine excitement and passion than the kind of message Jobs used to deliver, its just a different style of bullshit.

Personally I find very calm, buddhist type messages to be rather creepy and sinister, but that doesn't mean crazy Ballmer is more genuine or less PR.



Away from the cameras I suspect Jobs threw more impressive hissy fits than Ballmer could muster.


----------



## maldwyn (Jun 20, 2012)




----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jun 20, 2012)

elbows said:


> Come on, they are both forms of corporate PR, its no more or less genuine excitement and passion than the kind of message Jobs used to deliver, its just a different style of bullshit.
> 
> Personally I find very calm, buddhist type messages to be rather creepy and sinister, but that doesn't mean crazy Ballmer is more genuine or less PR.
> 
> ...




Have to agree, the idea that they're are less machine pr is highly amusing....


----------



## gabi (Jun 21, 2012)

maldwyn said:


>




scary shit. both are cunts. at least one was original though i guess.


----------



## Kanda (Jun 21, 2012)

In true Microsoft fashion, it crashes on the demo...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/video/2012/jun/21/microsoft-surface-error-windows-video


----------



## editor (Jun 21, 2012)

Kanda said:


> In true Microsoft fashion, it crashes on the demo...
> 
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/video/2012/jun/21/microsoft-surface-error-windows-video


Good job the product is still months from a release date then.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jun 21, 2012)

Interesting piece by Gruber - and he's not at all alone - theorising that it's not actually so much about Apple as about confronting Windows OEM manufacturers, because the Windows model looks increasingly less profitable.


> This move was driven by the iPad, but competitively it directly pits Microsoft not against Apple but against Dell, HP, Toshiba, et al. The intention is obviously to slow the iPad down, but the radical shift in Microsoft’s strategy is about the fight over the profits that remain after Apple’s. The math no longer works out for the Windows you-sell-the-hardware-we-sell-the-software model. It works for unit share (cf. Android), but it doesn’t for profit share.


http://daringfireball.net/2012/06/surface_between_rock_and_hardware_place


----------



## Crispy (Jun 21, 2012)

I'm not Gruber's biggest fan, but I think he's spot on here.
I wouldn't be surprised at all if MS bought Nokia either.


----------



## Kanda (Jun 21, 2012)

editor said:


> Good job the product is still months from a release date then.


 
Like Apple's mapping being in beta yeah?


----------



## editor (Jun 21, 2012)

Kanda said:


> Like Apple's mapping being in beta yeah?


Well, yes, except Apple's army of borgs normally ensure Teutonic-like efficiency at such things, making such an aberration noteworthy. I think most people expect things to go a bit humanly askew when Microsoft is involved.

As for Gruber, I've long grown bored of his fanboy wafflings even if he does serve up the occasional insight.


----------



## Kanda (Jun 21, 2012)

editor said:


> I think most people expect things to go a bit humanly askew when Microsoft is involved.


 
Well, yes... that's why I said in true Microsoft fashion..


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jun 21, 2012)

Crispy said:


> I'm not Gruber's biggest fan, but I think he's spot on here.
> I wouldn't be surprised at all if MS bought Nokia either.



Was thinking about last night and reckon after this week it's nowhere near being far fetched...


----------



## Lazy Llama (Jun 21, 2012)

They might have to, after dealing a fairly hefty blow to the viability of Nokia's current Lumia range by stating that it will not be possible to upgrade from Windows Phone 7 to Windows Phone 8 when it launches early next year.

At least with a current Android or Apple phone you've got a pretty good idea that you'll get OS upgrades for the next year (or three).


----------



## mwgdrwg (Jun 21, 2012)

Yeah, the Lumia 900 is going to be their flagship model for a while. So imagine getting one of those phones on a two-year contract about September, only for it to be outdated within a couple of months. Gutted.


----------



## magneze (Jun 21, 2012)

Lazy Llama said:


> They might have to, after dealing a fairly hefty blow to the viability of Nokia's current Lumia range by stating that it will not be possible to upgrade from Windows Phone 7 to Windows Phone 8 when it launches early next year.
> 
> At least with a current Android or Apple phone you've got a pretty good idea that you'll get OS upgrades for the next year (or three).


That's a massive own goal. Basically relaunching their mobile platform. Again.


----------



## TitanSound (Jun 21, 2012)

mwgdrwg said:


> Yeah, the Lumia 900 is going to be their flagship model for a while. So imagine getting one of those phones on a two-year contract about September, only for it to be outdated within a couple of months. Gutted.


 
That'll be me then.

The fucking cunts.

ETA: I'm really fucking angry about that actually. All the benefits that possibly come with Windows 8, none of us Lumia owners will be able to enjoy.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jun 21, 2012)

Maybe it's their cunning way of avoiding hardware fragmentation?


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jun 21, 2012)

Or they're idiots. This really is a shitty way to treat early adopters.


----------



## Crispy (Jun 21, 2012)

Even the original 2G iphone was kept up-to-date for 2.5 years.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jun 21, 2012)

Indeed. Although I'm not 100% it will really hurt them commercially, I still fully expect them to grab a sizable chunk of the smartphone market and leapfrog Android into second place in the tablet market within 18 months.


----------



## Lazy Llama (Jun 21, 2012)

Digitimes is reporting price of more than $599 for the RT Surface and more than $799 for the Pro. 
http://www.digitimes.com/news/a20120619PD210.html


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jun 21, 2012)

Wonder what the UK prices will be if those are correct?


----------



## astral (Jun 21, 2012)

I got to play with one of these at microsoft today. I have to say I really liked it, despite my massive anti windows 8 stance after trying that a couple of months back.


----------



## c01642 (Jun 21, 2012)

Lazy Llama said:


> They might have to, after dealing a fairly hefty blow to the viability of Nokia's current Lumia range by stating that it will not be possible to upgrade from Windows Phone 7 to Windows Phone 8 when it launches early next year.
> 
> At least with a current Android or Apple phone you've got a pretty good idea that you'll get OS upgrades for the next year (or three).


 
We have a brand new galaxy ace and an older galaxy s bought last year, neither seem to be getting ICS. Most none tech people i know buy and handset and never upgdate it at all, i have suggested this to family and friend and they just look at me like i'm talking in a foreign language. If it works then why change it.

There is another update coming for the lumias, 7.8 which gives it the same apperance as 8 and some of the new features and Nokia have said they will continue to support and improve the current range of phones.

http://wmpoweruser.com/nokia-confirms-all-nokia-lumia-handsets-will-get-windows-phone-7-8/


----------



## magneze (Jun 21, 2012)

c01642 said:


> We have a brand new galaxy ace and an older galaxy s bought last year, neither seem to be getting ICS. Most none tech people i know buy and handset and never upgdate it at all, i have suggested this to family and friend and they just look at me like i'm talking in a foreign language. If it works then why change it.
> 
> There is another update coming for the lumias, 7.8 which gives it the same apperance as 8 and some of the new features and Nokia have said they will continue to support and improve the current range of phones.
> 
> http://wmpoweruser.com/nokia-confirms-all-nokia-lumia-handsets-will-get-windows-phone-7-8/


It's not so much existing users upgrading, more the now dead stock of Lumias that Nokia are still trying to sell. Anyone would think that Microsoft are trying to devalue Nokia in order to buy them on the cheap or something.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jun 21, 2012)

This really has made things interesting:



> Competing head-on with PC makers may damage a relationship that has long dominated the computer world, where nine out of 10 PCs run on Windows. Analysts pointed to similar concerns in the Android smartphone world surrounding Google Inc's decision to buy Motorola.
> 
> "The strategy may affect the willingness of device manufacturers to work so closely with Microsoft, as it will now be viewed as a competitor as well as a partner," said Andrew Milroy, vice president of ICT Research for Asia-Pacific at Frost & Sullivan in Singapore.
> 
> Driving Microsoft's shift, say analysts, is the growing clout of Apple, whoseiPadis threatening the market for notebook computers. Notebooks are still largely a Windows business, but its growth is a fraction of the tablet market.


----------



## c01642 (Jun 21, 2012)

Acer dont seem to have problem.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/06/21/microsoft_surface_tablet_acer_comments/


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jun 22, 2012)

Interesting conversation at work today, my CEO was talking excitedly about getting the pro. As he said a tablet with a detachable keyboard but can also be used as a laptop is win. Looks like I was spot on in my view that this will be good for the road warrior/exec on the move!


----------



## editor (Jun 22, 2012)

astral said:


> I got to play with one of these at microsoft today. I have to say I really liked it, despite my massive anti windows 8 stance after trying that a couple of months back.


Tell us more!


----------



## Cid (Jun 23, 2012)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Interesting conversation at work today, my CEO was talking excitedly about getting the pro. As he said a tablet with a detachable keyboard but can also be used as a laptop is win. Looks like I was spot on in my view that this will be good for the road warrior/exec on the move!


 
Is it also your view that bears shit in woods and the pope wears a silly hat?


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jun 23, 2012)

Cid said:


> Is it also your view that bears shit in woods and the pope wears a silly hat?



Yup and that you can't post on urban without someone coming along with a snide wanker comment too.


----------



## editor (Jun 23, 2012)

Here's an interesting piece:



> *Microsoft’s new Surface tablet has one hardware secret the company has been playing close to the vest: a unique optical glass screen that can actually “see” what you put on it.*
> 
> By now, unless you’ve been raised under a rock, you know that Microsoft will be launching its Windows 8 tablets around the holidays this year. However, one part of this product that seems to have flown under radar is the optical glass display. Probably because when you hear the words “optical glass” you think this simply is a creative way to say “clear” or something equally obvious.
> 
> ...


http://www.digitaltrends.com/opinio...et-advantage-of-the-microsoft-surface-tablet/


----------



## elbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Unfortunately Im not at all convinced they are right about that, the few other sources I've found that are even aware of that technology do not think it is included in these products at all. They might be wrong, but I wouldn't bet on it at all, and it would be slightly odd for Microsoft not to draw attention to this tech if it actually existed in this product. 

Its not as much fun on smaller screens anyway.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jun 23, 2012)

Apparently it'll only be wifi with 3G etc coming sometime later. Rumour has it that the pro is going to cost $999 too!


----------



## astral (Jun 23, 2012)

editor said:


> Tell us more!


 
It was a really nice, tactile piece of kit. Solid and shiny and I really want one. I have an android tab and use ipads at work, and I genuinely preferred it to both of them.

I was actually there to talk about SQL server 12 and they were demontrating the interaction between devices; between multiple desktops to tablet to windows phone and then over to ipad, completely flawlessly.  Obviously it was set up, but the slate was the real highlight, it's a really lovely bit of tech.


----------



## elbows (Jun 23, 2012)

I still find the metro interface compelling for tablets, but I'm going to have to wait at least 6 months to see if this stuff takes off as hoped. My biggest fear is that something in the OS or metro interface will eat battery, but theres no point me keep going on about this, I just have to wait and see.


----------



## editor (Jun 23, 2012)

astral said:


> It was a really nice, tactile piece of kit. Solid and shiny and I really want one. I have an android tab and use ipads at work, and I genuinely preferred it to both of them.


Damn. I think I want one now!


----------



## astral (Jun 24, 2012)

It's worth holding out for I think. I'm usually biggest proponant of not buying first gen, but i think I'll be buying one of these.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jun 28, 2012)

Heh


----------



## editor (Aug 16, 2012)

Rumour is that the Surface will retail for just $199. That'll certainly spice up the market place.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/blog/2012/aug/16/microsoft-surface-199-subscription


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 16, 2012)

I want to buy gf's daughter one for chrimbo. That sounds a reasonable price.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Aug 16, 2012)

I wonder if it will be cancelled.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Aug 16, 2012)

Citizen66 said:


> I want to buy gf's daughter one for chrimbo. That sounds a reasonable price.


It won't be that, if it ever comes out - it will be about $600.


----------



## Lazy Llama (Aug 16, 2012)

That would be a speculative $199 plus a speculative 2-year subscription charge on top?
So possibly competing with a £99 iPad with a 2-year subscription charge on top.


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 16, 2012)

FridgeMagnet said:


> It won't be that, if it ever comes out - it will be about $600.



Maybe i'll kill her dog and guinea pig then to cater for it.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Aug 16, 2012)

Citizen66 said:


> Maybe i'll kill her dog and guinea pig then to cater for it.


Hmm, is there money in pet slaughter?  I'm out of work atm, maybe it's an industry to look at.


----------



## elbows (Aug 16, 2012)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Hmm, is there money in pet slaughter?  I'm out of work atm, maybe it's an industry to look at.


 
What happened to your Unity development work etc?


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Aug 16, 2012)

elbows said:


> What happened to your Unity development work etc?


The company folded. Or, suddenly seemed not to be able to employ anyone who expected to be paid. Oh well.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Aug 16, 2012)

Lazy Llama said:


> That would be a speculative $199 plus a speculative 2-year subscription charge on top?
> So possibly competing with a £99 iPad with a 2-year subscription charge on top.



Yup certain to be a success!!


----------



## editor (Aug 16, 2012)

Lazy Llama said:


> That would be a speculative $199 plus a speculative 2-year subscription charge on top?
> So possibly competing with a £99 iPad with a 2-year subscription charge on top.


Photoshop doesn't work too well on an iPad.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Aug 16, 2012)

Photoshop isn't part of the imaginary $199 deal made up by this Guardian bloke (and the blogger he nicked it from). Not that any significant number of people would care about running Photoshop on a tablet anyway, to be fair.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Aug 16, 2012)

Lol yeah your average punter is going to be as bothered by having photoshop on their tablet as they are having flash!


----------



## elbows (Aug 16, 2012)

editor said:


> Photoshop doesn't work too well on an iPad.


 
I'll take that as an indicator that the failure of Microsoft to educate people as to the differences between Windows RT and 'proper Windows' is going to cause some confusion.

For now the short version is that Windows RT should be considered a new platform, and assumptions about software compatibility will lead to disappointment.


----------



## Crispy (Aug 16, 2012)

editor said:


> Photoshop doesn't work too well on an iPad.


Yeah but I bet it doesn't work too weller on windows RT.


----------



## elbows (Aug 16, 2012)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Photoshop isn't part of the imaginary $199 deal made up by this Guardian bloke (and the blogger he nicked it from). Not that any significant number of people would care about running Photoshop on a tablet anyway, to be fair.


 
Its a pretty crappy article considering that the RT version of Office 2013 is reported to be included with the Surface RT.

Its not at all silly to consider the possibility of Microsoft subsidising the device, they desperately want a foothold in this segment and a combination of Apple, Amazon and Google brings a big squeeze to the quality & price fronts. But they dont necessarily need to see direct returns from such a subsidy. Having masses of people using their tablets and so remaining connected with their wider, profitable eco-system of desktop/laptop OS's, productivity apps, servers & enterprise systems may be considered a worthwhile longer-term gain. The idea that the device may come with a subscription which renders the device pathetic if cancelled is quite silly. If you can only believe they'd subsidise if there was direct profit as a result, well look no further than software for the RT having to come through the Windows store.


----------



## elbows (Aug 16, 2012)

Crispy said:


> Yeah but I bet it doesn't work too weller on windows RT.


 
And looking ahead to the future, there are only two reasons why the RT might one day be able to do a better job than competing ARM tablets have to date. The stylus and the possibility that it will be looked upon as a device that should run deeper & more serious stuff just because of Microsofts historical image. There are a number of architectural limitations which may negate these factors, only time will tell, and its not going to become clear until quite some time after launch. Even Microsoft themselves may face problems as people may choose to focus on what the RT version of office does not have compared to its big brother. Especially if the rumours that the initial RT version of office will be labelled a preview are true.


----------



## Crispy (Aug 16, 2012)

elbows said:


> I'll take that as an indicator that the failure of Microsoft to educate people as to the differences between Windows RT and 'proper Windows' is going to cause some confusion.
> 
> For now the short version is that Windows RT should be considered a new platform, and assumptions about software compatibility will lead to disappointment.



They really should have called it something else. It may look the same, but it's a very different system


----------



## elbows (Aug 16, 2012)

Crispy said:


> They really should have called it something else. It may look the same, but it's a very different system


 
Yeah, although I can see why they got themselves into this mess. They have several reasons for wanting to make it seem more closely related to its desktop cousin, and indeed over time if Metro works out the differences for a range of common tasks will greatly diminish. And the remaining gap is supposed to come under the 'pro' label and quickly be understood.

But certainly to start with things are unlikely to be that neat. At launch it will have far less choice of apps than iOS or Android, not more, although metro-app crossover does offer them a means of remedying this over time. Selling a load of Surface RT's and not dismally failing new users expectations is a challenge that may well encourage a price subsidy of some kind.


----------



## elbows (Aug 16, 2012)

Mind you given how much OEMs have already moaned, a price subsidy would further open that can of worms. They could argue to OEMs that they are actually trying to create market share for the RT so that others can profit much later, and that this attempt is better for OEMs in the long-run since not taking this approach may lead to a platform that never enjoys significant sales. And in the meantime they can leave OEMs plenty of room when it comes to x86 windows 8 tablets and the Surface Pro pricing.


----------



## editor (Aug 17, 2012)

Crispy said:


> Yeah but I bet it doesn't work too weller on windows RT.


----------



## Chz (Aug 19, 2012)

Crispy said:


> They really should have called it something else. It may look the same, but it's a very different system


I agree. Even on a tech forum I'm on, you've got people who do this sort of thing for a living and are really into their CE gear, they've having a hell of a time figuring out the differences between x86 Win8 and RT. If these people can't figure it out, what hope do the rest of us have?


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Aug 19, 2012)

Exactly.


----------



## elbows (Aug 19, 2012)

FridgeMagnet said:


> The company folded. Or, suddenly seemed not to be able to employ anyone who expected to be paid. Oh well.


 
Very sorry to hear that. I must admit one of the reasons its taken me so long to plunge into development is a sense that the industry sucks in several ways.


----------



## editor (Oct 16, 2012)

Pricing details:


> Prices, countries and dates for tablet announced and show that it will offer more storage than top-end iPad
> Microsoft's Surface tablet will be priced from $499 for a 32GB version in the US – and £399 in the UK – and go on sale on 26 October in eight countries including the UK, the company said on Tuesday.
> 
> The announcement came just hours before Apple sent out teaser invitations for an event in San Francisco on 23 October, with the tagline "We've got a little more to show you" – widely expected to be a smaller "iPad mini" along with a revision to its tablet line to incorporate its new "Lightning" connector.
> ...


----------



## RubyBlue (Oct 17, 2012)

I'm not technology wise very savvy so bear in mind if I ask stupid questions but if you have a microsoft laptop and/or desktop which is compatible to your work-system so can work at home and you only use a tablet for 'entertainment' reasons and you have an Iphone - why would you buy the Surface rather then an Ipad (or other tablet)?


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## editor (Oct 17, 2012)

The idea is that you use the (premium version of) Surface for both work and play as it'll run all your desktop software as well as work like an iPad.


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## RubyBlue (Oct 17, 2012)

editor said:


> The idea is that you use the (premium version of) Surface for both work and play as it'll run all your desktop software as well as work like an iPad.


Simply put thanks. So if you can pretty much get the apps you want for the surface you get the best of both - it seems a better deal then an Ipad? - I'm looking forward to seeing it properly when it comes out, although I'm not in the market to buy as I only got my Ipad in August (birthday present).


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## elbows (Oct 17, 2012)

RubyBlue said:


> Simply put thanks. So if you can pretty much get the apps you want for the surface you get the best of both - it seems a better deal then an Ipad? - I'm looking forward to seeing it properly when it comes out, although I'm not in the market to buy as I only got my Ipad in August (birthday present).


 
Thats certainly what Microsoft are banking on, that the range of apps ends up making the Surface and other Windows 8 tablets seem far more like a full computer.

Unfortunately there is some devilish detail: The Surface RT, ie the version that had its prices announced yesterday, will not run all windows software. So for the full 'work and play' experience people need to look to the Pro Surface that wont be out for a good while yet, or the atom or i3/i5/i7 based windows 8 tablets from other companies. Either that or wait and see what productivity software becomes available for the Surface RT & other Windows RT tablets.

Personally, given that the Surface RT & other RT tablets arent exactly dirt cheap, I'm going to wait and see what the pricing is like for atom-based tablets from other companies, and how well such machines perform. Because if they are only a hundred pounds or so more expensive than the Surface RT then these might turn out to be a better bet for people looking for a more powerful tablet.


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## RubyBlue (Oct 17, 2012)

Ah elbows - thanks!  Glad I'm not having to make a decision right now - it all seemed so simple a minute ago


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## elbows (Oct 18, 2012)

This article takes a look at Microsofts dismal failure to educate consumers about the difference between RT and normal windows, which is now important to understand given the immenent lauch of various RT and full windows tablets.

I'm more interested in how Microsoft communicate (or fail to) this stuff more broadly than what reps in their stores are saying, partly because we dont have their stores here and as the article eventually gets round to pointing out, there is still time to train them. But the start of the article does take a wider look at the issue before descending into the easy territory of finding reps who will say really stupid things.

http://www.theverge.com/2012/10/17/...rt-surface-confused-microsoft-store-employees


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## elbows (Oct 20, 2012)

Heres an article which covers the same subjects as my last two posts - Microsofts failure to tell consumers about the differences of WIndows RT, and the possibility that the atom-based Windows 8 tablets from other manufacturers might be a better bet. I'm leaning in that direction myself but its premature really, need to actually have ARM and atom models in the wild and being used before we can be sure the atom ones really have the advantage.

http://techland.time.com/2012/10/19/windows-rt-is-having-an-identity-crisis/


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## elbows (Oct 23, 2012)

Looks like the Asus Vivotab RT, which is like their android Transformer model but with Windows RT instead, is the same price as the Surface RT, for the keyboard-bundled versions and dollar prices anyway.

http://www.engadget.com/2012/10/23/asus-vivotab-rt-pricing-availability/


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## elbows (Oct 24, 2012)

Oh Windows, with these facepalms you are really spoiling us.

Check out the 4th image in this gallery of the Asus VivoTab RT:

http://www.engadget.com/photos/asus-vivotab-rt-at-office-depot/

'Some storage capacity required for operating system.

Total available user capacity of 32G sku / 64G sku will be approximately 15GB/44GB'


----------



## editor (Oct 24, 2012)

Verge review: Yeah, but no. Least not yet, maybe never.



> Maybe I say this too often, but I wanted to love this device. Actually, I wanted to love the Surface when I first saw it, before I even got my hands on the review unit. It made Windows 8 make sense in a way other products had not, and I could see a world where this kind of device was the only one I carried with me. Once I did get the review unit, I wanted to love it even more. And truth be told, there is a lot here to love. Plenty — but not enough for me right now.
> 
> The promise of the Surface was that it could deliver a best-in-class tablet experience, but then transform into the PC you needed when heavier lifting was required. Instead of putting down my tablet and picking up my laptop, I would just snap on my keyboard and get my work done. But that's not what the Surface offers, at least not in my experience. It does the job of a tablet and the job of a laptop half as well as other devices on the market, and it often makes that job harder, not easier. Instead of being a no-compromise device, it often feels like a more-compromise one.
> 
> ...


----------



## editor (Oct 24, 2012)

But, on the other hand, much love from Mashable. 


> There’s no doubt that Surface will appeal most to Windows users. In fact this _is_ the tablet for Windows fans. It won’t win over Apple iPad owners, but for all those who hate Apple, find Android confusing and underwhelming, and are ready to enter the world of touch-screen computing this is the alternative you’ve been waiting for.
> http://mashable.com/2012/10/23/microsoft-surface-review/


----------



## editor (Oct 24, 2012)

While Engadget are pretty positive but say it's not quite cooked yet.


> The Microsoft Surface with Windows RT's $499 starting MSRP means those thinking about making the investment here will be carefully cross-shopping against same-priced offerings from Apple, ASUS and others. Where does this one rate? Very well -- but very differently. While those devices are primarily targeted at content-hungry consumers, the Surface is a slate upon which you can get some serious work done, and do so comfortably. You can't always say that of the competition.
> 
> It's in the other half of the equation, that of the content consumption and entertainment, where the Surface is currently lacking. It needs a bigger pile of apps and games to make up for that and, while we're sure they're coming, we don't know when. If those apps arrive soon, then early adopters will feel vindicated. If, however, the Windows RT market is slow to mature, not truly getting hot for another six months or so, holding off will prove to have been the smarter option.
> 
> ...


----------



## editor (Oct 24, 2012)

It's a maybe, possibly but not yet from TechChrunch.





> The Surface RT isn’t a tablet. It’s not a legitimate alternative to the iPad or Galaxy Note 10.1. That’s not a bad thing. With the Touch Covers, the Surface RT is a fine alternative to a laptop, offering a slightly limited Windows experience in a small, versatile form. Just don’t call it an iPad killer.
> 
> If properly nurtured, Windows RT and the Surface RT could be something worthwhile. But right now, given Microsoft’s track record with Windows Phone, buying the Surface RT is a huge risk. The built-in apps are very limited and the Internet experience is fairly poor. Skip this generation of the Surface RT or at least wait until it offers a richer, more useful experience. While we’re bullish on Windows 8, the RT incarnation just isn’t quite there.
> 
> http://techcrunch.com/2012/10/23/microsoft-surface-rt-review/?


----------



## editor (Oct 24, 2012)

BGR is bursting with love: 


> Windows RT has a lot of growing to do. The faster Microsoft can get developers on board, the better — and the early days will be slow-going in some respects as a result of this lack of apps. But even as it stands today, the Surface provides a terrific experience right out of the box and it will only get better over time.


http://bgr.com/2012/10/23/microsoft-surface-review-a-tale-of-two-tablets/


----------



## elbows (Oct 24, 2012)

Hoorah for the reviews, feels like I've been waiting a small eternity for that embargo to pass.

Sounds like no real surprises, they managed not to mess up battery life for the RT, but there may be some performance & crashing issues. lol @ the review where their windows update got stuck after the first 10 updates, that sounds far too much like the windows experience people dont want.

Did none of those reviews manage to mention how much of the storage space was actually available to the user? Given the photo of the Asus VivoTab RT sticker going on about how much space was used by the OS that I mentioned earlier, I was sort of hoping to find out what the reality is for the Surface RT. If its as bad as that sticker for another manufacturers comparable model suggests then this is actually quite a story, but I shouldnt be surprised that tech sites managed to omit this factor from their reviews. 

I would very much like to spend an hour with the Surface RT, shame MS has no retail presence here and I dont think anyone I know is likely to buy one in a hurry.


----------



## elbows (Oct 24, 2012)

Here is an Asus Vivo Tab RT review for comparison with the Surface, and a bit more detail about certain aspects of the Windows RT operating system that these devices have in common.

http://www.pcworld.com/article/2012...ign-but-brings-a-mixed-tablet-experience.html

edit - and another one. Battery life on the Asus doesnt sound too wonderful but maybe this reviewer pushed the Asus harder than the Surface reviews have done so far.

http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2012/10/my-kingdom-for-some-apps-the-asus-vivo-tab-rt-review/


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## elbows (Oct 24, 2012)

ars like they keyboard and a few other aspects, but in common with most reviews the uncertain RT app situation makes them wary and there are a few other niggles.

http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2012/10/microsofts-first-stab-at-a-pc-surface-reviewed/


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## Kid_Eternity (Oct 24, 2012)

That OS/ available user storage is fucking nuts!


----------



## mrs quoad (Oct 24, 2012)

elbows said:


> Oh Windows, with these facepalms you are really spoiling us.
> 
> Check out the 4th image in this gallery of the Asus VivoTab RT:
> 
> ...


 


elbows said:


> Did none of those reviews manage to mention how much of the storage space was actually available to the user? Given the photo of the Asus VivoTab RT sticker going on about how much space was used by the OS that I mentioned earlier, I was sort of hoping to find out what the reality is for the Surface RT. If its as bad as that sticker for another manufacturers comparable model suggests then this is actually quite a story, but I shouldnt be surprised that tech sites managed to omit this factor from their reviews.


 
If ^^^ that's true, then that's properly, properly fucked. Brings a whole new meaning to 'bloatware.'

e2a: from here


> Experience Windows 8 on your tablet with the VivoTab™ RT by Asus. Running on NVidia’s powerful Tegra 3 Quad-Core processor, this 10.1"* *32GB*** tablet offers wide viewing angles and an ultra-bright screen for easy readability anywhere, even outdoors.
> (TF600T-B1-GR)
> Limit 5 per store to pre-order.
> Minimum of 2 per store for store availability. No rainchecks. Pre-order in store only.
> ...


Same appears on plenty of other pre-order sites, too.


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## mrs quoad (Oct 24, 2012)

http://www.tomshardware.com/news/Surface-Windows-RT-Microsoft-windows-8,18536.html



> *Windows RT Will Require 12GB of Storage on Tablets*
> *Need a bigger boat?*
> 
> Microsoft has confirmed that Windows RT takes up more than one third of Surface’s 32GB storage space.
> ...


----------



## elbows (Oct 24, 2012)

Thanks for confirming that. Having looked around the net it seems this news came out some days ago, but none of those reviews saw fit to mention it.

It also seems that the bundled version of office is not licensed to be used for commercial purposes


----------



## Chz (Oct 24, 2012)

elbows said:


> ars like they keyboard and a few other aspects, but in common with most reviews the uncertain RT app situation makes them wary and there are a few other niggles.
> 
> http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2012/10/microsofts-first-stab-at-a-pc-surface-reviewed/


 
Peter's a big Microsoft fan, so I think it says a lot that he's uncertain about it. The man *is* one of their target markets - someone who likes the MS ecosystem but will happily jump to anything that offers a superior experience. (He has a Macbook to run Windows on)


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## elbows (Oct 24, 2012)

Yeah, they failed, at launch anyway. Is anybody surprised really? As soon as I heard that Office hadnt been touch-optimised and ran in desktop mode, I lost a lot of hope.

The Guardian summarise some of the less than stellar reviews here:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2012/oct/24/microsoft-surface-thumbs-down-early-reviews



> Verdicts published overnight in the US, the first from journalists to have tested Surface at home, have praised its touchscreen interface but slated the machine for poor resolution, being too heavy, using substandard cameras, and having a narrow selection of apps which are prone to crashing.


 
All this moaning and most of them havent even picked up on the storage issue yet.

If Microsoft dont have some impressive 3rd party apps to show off on official launch day then doh squared.


----------



## mrs quoad (Oct 24, 2012)

elbows said:


> The Guardian summarise some of the less than stellar reviews here:
> 
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2012/oct/24/microsoft-surface-thumbs-down-early-reviews





> The two high definition cameras are described as junk


Properly, "ouch."


----------



## gabi (Oct 24, 2012)

ouch.

i actually feel sorry for microsoft. it's like seeing your old dad get humiliated trying to play football. or something.


----------



## c01642 (Oct 25, 2012)

Anandtech seems to be the most comprehensive review i have seen so far.

"The Windows RT experience, in many senses, is clearly ahead of what many competitors offer in the tablet space today. Multitasking, task switching and the ability to have multiple applications active on the screen at once are all big advantages that Microsoft enjoys. For productivity workloads, Surface is without equal in the tablet space."

http://www.anandtech.com/print/6385


----------



## editor (Oct 25, 2012)

elbows said:


> The Guardian summarise some of the less than stellar reviews here:
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2012/oct/24/microsoft-surface-thumbs-down-early-reviews


Interesting that the Guardian should be so keen to pick up on the negative aspects of the reviews.

Reader comments on that page:


> Honan also says "This is one of the most exciting pieces of hardware I’ve ever used", and "This is a great device", and "once the application ecosystem fleshes out, it’s a viable alternative to the iPad". He gives the device an overall score of 8 out of 10. I'd take that thumbs down. Perhaps "mixed reviews" would have been a better way of putting it?





> On balance, reviews of the touch interface were generally glowing
> 
> And yet you managed to focus exclusively on the few niggles that reviewers found. Nice job Guardian.


----------



## DieselBar (Oct 25, 2012)

Am going to pre-order the asus RT with 3G to trial using for remote access for the oncall at work, MS surface is not supporting 3g to start with so no good.  We use thinkpad edge 13s at the moment that while small are much larger than this.

I am gambling a bit that with USB host and windows there will be compatible compact A4 scanners coming out for this though, is the main reason why we have not already gone ahead with Android/iPads


----------



## elbows (Oct 25, 2012)

editor said:


> Interesting that the Guardian should be so keen to pick up on the negative aspects of the reviews.
> 
> Reader comments on that page:


 
Yeah I'm not going to stick up for the Guardian, I mostly posted that article so we could see lots of the negative in one place. Reading numerous reviews in depth gave me much the same impression though, there are positive things to say for sure, but reviewers were not exactly wetting themselves. They think its got potential, and that some aspects of the design are great, but they cant put their hands on their hearts and advise people to rush out and buy one straight away.

Anyway I declared the launch a failure, but let me clarify that I meant that in terms of the mood music from both the media and people like us chatting on forums, and Microsofts lacklustre efforts with making Office a bit more suitable for touchscreens.

What I did not mean is that the Surface RT is dead on arrival. Much as with the wider Windows 8, if Microsoft are going to succeed then its likely because Windows 8 will grow on people over time.


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## editor (Oct 25, 2012)

Whenever I see a video of the Surface or Windows 8 in action, my interest in piqued. 
There is something very compelling about that interface that makes Android/iOS look rather old hat.


----------



## elbows (Oct 25, 2012)

DieselBar said:


> I am gambling a bit that with USB host and windows there will be compatible compact A4 scanners coming out for this though, is the main reason why we have not already gone ahead with Android/iPads


 
Its a gamble, if Windows RT dies then it will probably be down to a multitude of scenerios such as the one you mention not coming to fruition.

If RT scanner support doesnt happen then another option is the atom-based Windows 8 tablets, we cant compare those to the ARM-based RT ones properly yet but they are certain to have much better peripheral support.


----------



## elbows (Oct 25, 2012)

editor said:


> Whenever I see a video of the Surface or Windows 8 in action, my interest in piqued.
> There is something very compelling about that interface that makes Android/iOS look rather old hat.


 
I know what you mean, thats why I cant leave these Windows 8 threads alone. If I had the money I'd probably get one since UI's are central to the direction I'm trying to take my career in. Since I first tried a windows 8 preview I've been quite eager to try it on a touchscreen device.


----------



## Lemon Eddy (Oct 26, 2012)

The Reg have pointed out a unique and crucial advantage that the Surface has over all it's rivals. I'm surprised none of the other reviews have picked up on this, but for me it's a real deal maker:



> The Surface tablet's Touch Cover is eerily reminiscent of typing on a ZX81,


 
Now all MS have to do is release a Sinclair Basic programming environment, and a million geeks of a certain age will rush out to buy one just to relive their first forays into programming.


----------



## magneze (Oct 26, 2012)

8 is probably the new Vista. I expect to see 9 in pretty short order in OS terms - couple of years max.

Best bit is definitely the live tile interface idea. Seems to be a more structured way of doing widgets like Android and something that iOS just doesn't do at all.


----------



## c01642 (Oct 26, 2012)

DieselBar said:


> Am going to pre-order the asus RT with 3G to trial using for remote access for the oncall at work, MS surface is not supporting 3g to start with so no good. We use thinkpad edge 13s at the moment that while small are much larger than this.
> 
> I am gambling a bit that with USB host and windows there will be compatible compact A4 scanners coming out for this though, is the main reason why we have not already gone ahead with Android/iPads


 

According to the speech last night RT supports 50 of the top 53 printers and 420 million harware devices, probably not your scanner though!


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## Chz (Oct 26, 2012)

419 million of them are USB memory sticks.


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## DieselBar (Oct 26, 2012)

c01642 said:


> According to the speech last night RT supports 50 of the top 53 printers and 420 million harware devices, probably not your scanner though!


 
That is a brucie, its for work so I can just pickup a supported one, after my extended evaluation of course


----------



## magneze (Oct 29, 2012)

At the Chinese launch the noise causes an elderly neighbour to storm the stage and try and shut it down.


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## elbows (Oct 29, 2012)

A couple of UK places such as dabs.com seem to have the Asus VivoTab RT in stock. Their product information page sucks, but it does look a bit like they are trying to sell a 32GB model without keyboard dock for £599. Oh dear. For me to ever consider buying such a thing for that price it would have to have a shedload of amazing apps, and a screen resolution much higher than whats actually on offer here. Anyway this Asus price makes very little sense, given that I could get a M$ Surface RT 64GB with touch cover for £559. Maybe they messed up the price or the spec and the Asus comes with the keyboard, otherwise pah.

I really like the Windows 8 tiled interface and the hardware design of the Surface RT, but everything else screams 'do not buy' at me right now.


----------



## elbows (Nov 1, 2012)

This guy generally gets on my nerves, but I think he is the perfect person to review the Surface RT experience at this point.


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## Kid_Eternity (Nov 3, 2012)

Not what I'd call a slick UX!





> I’m typing this with gritted teeth. My 24 hours with the half-baked Surface have been a frustrating challenge, a mix of love and hate. I want want want this to work, but one problem after another have led me to come to the conclusion – a temporary one at least – that this thing just isn’t ready to ship.


 
Looks like Microsoft of old, get it to market even if it's not finished then patch/iterate it till it's usable...


----------



## Epona (Nov 3, 2012)

I'm not in the market for a tablet, but if I was, I would pay more attention to the views of someone who seems to enthusiastically enjoy and critique every gadget he can get his hands on (as per some people on this thread, who just seem to enjoy gadgets) than that of an Apple fanboi (whoever on this thread might qualify as such, and just put down anything that isn't released under the Apple logo).  Just saying.


----------



## Lemon Eddy (Nov 3, 2012)

elbows said:


> This guy generally gets on my nerves


 
Fuck me sideways, he must spend his life getting randomly punched.  What an irritating dick.


----------



## elbows (Nov 3, 2012)

I'm starting to get the idea that one of the better ways for me to explore touch-based windows 8 at this point might be to install windows 8 on a  decent desktop or laptop, then use a remote control app on the ipad that sends touch gestures in an appropriate way.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Nov 3, 2012)

@ Epona

Sure but unless you're saying this so called fanboy engineered the tablet to act slowly for the video he has a point that isn't undermined by his usual preferences.


----------



## Lemon Eddy (Nov 3, 2012)

Kid_Eternity said:


> @ Epona
> 
> Sure but unless you're saying this so called fanboy engineered the tablet to act slowly for the video he has a point that isn't undermined by his usual preferences.


 
The issue appears to be an intermittent one, with a same day fix released.  There's some interesting comments on it here:

http://www.zdnet.com/microsofts-sin...nt-over-office-2013-on-surface-rt-7000006484/

The likelihood is I'll have to buy some of these anyway for testing software on, so I'll be interested to see if I get it.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Nov 3, 2012)

Epona said:


> I'm not in the market for a tablet, but if I was, I would pay more attention to the views of someone who seems to enthusiastically enjoy and critique every gadget he can get his hands on (as per some people on this thread, who just seem to enjoy gadgets) than that of an Apple fanboi (whoever on this thread might qualify as such, and just put down anything that isn't released under the Apple logo).  Just saying.


The problem is that there is no such thing as an independent gadget lover these days, or rather it is generally defined as "person who gives a good review to a gadget made by a company that I like and slates ones made by ones that I don't". I have spent my life buying and using assorted phones, PDAs, handhelds, consoles, Nokia, Sony, Nintendo, Palm, assorted Windows and Linux and Apple machines from desktops to netbooks, and yet the fact that over the last couple of years I've found that I like Apple's offerings in the mobile sector apparently makes me an entirely untrustworthy observer as far as the Internet is concerned.


----------



## elbows (Nov 3, 2012)

FridgeMagnet said:


> The problem is that there is no such thing as an independent gadget lover these days, or rather it is generally defined as "person who gives a good review to a gadget made by a company that I like and slates ones made by ones that I don't". I have spent my life buying and using assorted phones, PDAs, handhelds, consoles, Nokia, Sony, Nintendo, Palm, assorted Windows and Linux and Apple machines from desktops to netbooks, and yet the fact that over the last couple of years I've found that I like Apple's offerings in the mobile sector apparently makes me an entirely untrustworthy observer as far as the Internet is concerned.


 
Its not much fun is it? Especially when attempts to point out the blatant bias in others is used to imply that our own bias is responsible for such analysis. Its enough to make me stop posting in the computer related subforums, but I'm far too much of a net-addicted bore for that to happen, so far at least.


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## FridgeMagnet (Nov 3, 2012)

Mind you, it's worse on Google+.


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## editor (Nov 3, 2012)

Mark my words: this time next year touchscreen laptops will be pretty much standard across many lines.


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## elbows (Nov 3, 2012)

editor said:


> Mark my words: this time next year touchscreen laptops will be pretty much standard across many lines.


 
When I saw the prices of the RT model tablet and the likely prices of the atom and intel ones, I started looking at laptops. There is a cheap Asus Vivobook one that comes in at £399 but the processor isnt exactly great. I'm pretty sure if I got one I would want to rip the screen off to use as a tablet and would get very frustrated that I couldnt.

I expected to see more multitouch models at Windows 8 launch but I guess its going to be a slower process than I had first imagined. I hear there are also some new multitouch monitors coming from the likes of LG at some point, the present couple of models being some years old now and far from ideal for windows 8 'swipe from screen edges'.


----------



## editor (Nov 8, 2012)

Surface RT picks up a rave review here:



> *Verdict*
> 
> We're sold, honestly, on the Surface RT. It's not cheap, but it's priced aggressively enough that people will give it some thought before they snap up an iPad.
> 
> ...





> Think of the Surface as something of a leap of faith. It's a great device now, and there's more than enough here to make it worth buying, although we do think it's expensive once you factor in a keyboard, and we urge you to get it with the keyboard, the Touch is just brilliant. The faith comes in the apps, which are currently less than ideal, we know Microsoft has a lot invested in this, so we hope things will improve soon. But for now, enjoy the current crop of apps and the amazing hardware, for a first attempt at a tablet, this is quite a triumph.


http://www.pocket-lint.com/review/6046/microsoft-surface-rt-tablet-review


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## Kid_Eternity (Nov 9, 2012)

They're getting loads of complaints over the keyboard breaking or not working. Looks like Microsoft quality control hasn't shifted much from the xbox 360 early days...


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## ChrisFilter (Nov 9, 2012)

I think it looks kinda cool. I don't need a tablet though. In retrospect, now I have the Note II, the 10" tablet form factor is a bit silly for my needs. Cumbersome.


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## elbows (Nov 12, 2012)

very geeky look at the screen, comparing it to other tablets and going beyond simply looking at resolution:

http://gizmodo.com/5959759/microsoft-surface-display-shoot+out-does-it-beat-the-ipad?popular=true

Worth a read for anyone interested in the general subject, even if you have no interest in the Surface RT.


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## elbows (Nov 13, 2012)

And so a sudden goodbye to the microsoft windows division head who first showed us the Surface RT while looking like a grandad/maths teacher.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-20307574




> *Steven Sinofsky, the head of Microsoft's Windows division, has left the company with immediate effect.*
> His departure comes just weeks after Microsoft launched Windows 8, the latest edition of its flagship product, seen as key to the firm's future.
> *Microsoft did not give* any reason for Mr Sinofsky's departure.


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## elbows (Nov 13, 2012)

Skateboarding into the sunset no doubt.







http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2012/nov/13/microsoft-windows-steven-sinofsky


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## gabi (Nov 13, 2012)

rock n fucking roll!


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## elbows (Nov 13, 2012)

Although its not actually in stock yet and I havent read any proper reviews, I am starting to see the Acer Iconia W510 Windows 8 Atom tablet listed at prices around the £500 mark.

Unless proper windows 8 performs absolutely terribly on these atom-based machines, I would strongly advise not purchasing any ARM-based Windows RT tablets at this stage. They may end up a complete dud if the comparably priced atom ones can do a good enough job, and the primary reason I am saying this is software compatibility, since the atom ones run proper windows 8. OK you do get office built in with Windows RT, but only licensed for personal use.


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## sim667 (Nov 15, 2012)

http://news.cnet.com/8301-10805_3-5...hit-with-lawsuit-over-surfaces-storage-space/

First lawsuit over misadvertising. Apparently the 32GB model only comes with 16GB free on it, and the 64GB model only has 46GB on it.

They must be filling it up with some right shite on the software front.


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## magneze (Nov 15, 2012)

Cross posted from the Windows 8 thread. Probably more relevant on this one tbh:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/11/05/windows_phone_8_sdk/

There seems to be no unified way of coding for phone & tablet. Unlike iOS, Android or BlackBerry.

Oh dear. They won't get "Metro" apps by making it difficult to code for - this is a really bad screw up for Microsoft IMO. Their dev tools are normally very good but this is a massive stumble.


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## elbows (Nov 15, 2012)

sim667 said:


> http://news.cnet.com/8301-10805_3-5...hit-with-lawsuit-over-surfaces-storage-space/
> 
> First lawsuit over misadvertising. Apparently the 32GB model only comes with 16GB free on it, and the 64GB model only has 46GB on it.
> 
> They must be filling it up with some right shite on the software front.


 
That does not surprise me, I ranted about this when that detail first became clear. I was looking at the spec pages on Microsofts site recently (in anticipation of the Pro version) and they had no small print about this, only the usual 'formatted capacity may be different' thing.


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## magneze (Nov 15, 2012)

It's a weird one. If you buy a computer with Windows then it's a given that Windows takes up some of the disk space. This is true of any computer system or mobile phone. Is it just a complaint about the size of Windows 8?


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## FridgeMagnet (Nov 15, 2012)

magneze said:


> It's a weird one. If you buy a computer with Windows then it's a given that Windows takes up some of the disk space. This is true of any computer system or mobile phone. Is it just a complaint about the size of Windows 8?


Generally it doesn't make a difference with mobiles - if somebody had wanted to they could probably have sued Apple, say, for false advertising given that the OS takes a gig or two. 16 gig is taking the piss though and you don't really have a choice.


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## mrs quoad (Nov 15, 2012)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Generally it doesn't make a difference with mobiles - if somebody had wanted to they could probably have sued Apple, say, for false advertising given that the OS takes a gig or two. 16 gig is taking the piss though and you don't really have a choice.


When I bought my first lappy, c.2005, I got it from Tesco. And ended up trying to take it back 3 times because it only had (IIRC) 100 gb of hard drive appearing, instead of the advertised (IIRC) 120.

*No* fucker in there knew what'd happened, and I thought I'd been sold the wrong model


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## FridgeMagnet (Nov 15, 2012)

mrs quoad said:


> When I bought my first lappy, c.2005, I got it from Tesco. And ended up trying to take it back 3 times because it only had (IIRC) 100 gb of hard drive appearing, instead of the advertised (IIRC) 120.
> 
> *No* fucker in there knew what'd happened, and I thought I'd been sold the wrong model


Somehow that doesn't surprise me - and also, OEM Windows installs generally also contain many gigs of shite nobody would ever want and which are only there to make money for the hardware retailer. Somebody _should_ sue them for that.

I don't know how much space a clean Windows 7 install takes (though I could find out in a bit) but OS X only takes 3-4 gig iirc, which is important on something like the Air which generally comes with smallish SSDs (if not as small as a tablet).


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## mrs quoad (Nov 15, 2012)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I don't know how much space a clean Windows 7 install takes (though I could find out in a bit) but OS X only takes 3-4 gig iirc, which is important on something like the Air which generally comes with smallish SSDs (if not as small as a tablet).


The Mountain Lion DL's 4 gigs, IIRC.

According to this, it's 13gb once unpackaged / installed.

e2a: according to this it requires 8gb HD space.


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## FridgeMagnet (Nov 15, 2012)

Hm. I did look at that when I was investigating what I could get rid of on my Air and I don't think it was that much. 

Anyway, mobile devices have less storage generally and the standard is to have smaller OSes.


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## Firky (Nov 15, 2012)

They'll be a couple of service packs on top of that shortly. I bet they'll be more than 4gig a shout.


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## sim667 (Nov 16, 2012)

elbows said:


> That does not surprise me, I ranted about this when that detail first became clear. I was looking at the spec pages on Microsofts site recently (in anticipation of the Pro version) and they had no small print about this, only the usual 'formatted capacity may be different' thing.


 
1-2 gb - good
2-3 - ok
14gb -


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## magneze (Nov 16, 2012)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Hm. I did look at that when I was investigating what I could get rid of on my Air and I don't think it was that much.
> 
> Anyway, mobile devices have less storage generally and the standard is to have smaller OSes.


I think this is the key isn't it. Microsoft decided that they wanted full blown Windows 8 on a tablet. Apple don't run OSX on the iPad for a very good reason.


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## Kid_Eternity (Nov 29, 2012)

900 dollars? LOL!


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## elbows (Nov 29, 2012)

Kid_Eternity said:


> 900 dollars? LOL!


 
Ah they have announced the Surface Pro price then, and availability (January). That price is about what I was expecting, given the price of i5 Windows 8 tablets from other manufacturers.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-20539993


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## elbows (Nov 29, 2012)

You dont get the keyboard included at that price either. But you do get a stylus. Woopie-do.


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## elbows (Nov 29, 2012)

And the Pro models battery life is apparently also what I expected, about half of the Surface RT = about the same as a laptop = shite. Throw in the likely heat issue I mentioned when these tablets were first discussed and the Pro its pretty much the same as all the previous generations of windows tablets really, with all the advantages and flaws of that class of device, and the only improvements coming from the OS itself.

http://www.zdnet.com/microsoft-surface-pro-to-have-half-the-surface-rts-battery-life-7000008113/

Depending on how they actually set the UK price then actually its a bit more competitive than full windows tablets have been in the past, and may put a squeeze on some of the atom-cpu windows 8 tablets I'm starting to see which seem to lurk around the £649-£749 range with perhaps an exception or two, and somewhat negated by the need to buy the surface pro keyboard separately.


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## Kid_Eternity (Dec 1, 2012)

Four hour battery life? Hahaha!


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## DieselBar (Dec 4, 2012)

Finally managed to find one of these with 3G, getting the Asus Vivo Tab RT 3G 64Gb with keyboard dock from Amazon.de. Was €829.99 which is well into laptop territory but combination of excellent battery/light weight/windows/Keyboard&mouse/touchscreen/usb host might prove to be a winner.

Will be interesting to use Win8 on a touch screen as mentioned also, it will hopefully be here before the weekend.


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## elbows (Dec 4, 2012)

Let us know how you get on with it. From everything I've read its going to take a good while to unlock its potential, mostly because of apps and the need for Microsoft to iron out some kinks. If I had spare cash I'd have given it a try despite the unsteady start.


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## editor (Dec 4, 2012)

DieselBar said:


> Finally managed to find one of these with 3G, getting the Asus Vivo Tab RT 3G 64Gb with keyboard dock from Amazon.de. Was €829.99 which is well into laptop territory but combination of excellent battery/light weight/windows/Keyboard&mouse/touchscreen/usb host might prove to be a winner.
> 
> Will be interesting to use Win8 on a touch screen as mentioned also, it will hopefully be here before the weekend.


Looking forward to your comments!

I keep saying it but touchscreen laptops are going to be the absolute norm soon. Once you get used to one, going back to itty-bitty trackpads is like stepping back into the past.


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## maldwyn (Dec 4, 2012)

I think the whole keyboard undercarriage seriously gets it the way when it comes to touchscreen laptops - or perhaps i'm just lazy preferring instead to lounge on the sofa with a MBP parked on my belly/chest and an Apple magic trackpad down by my side.


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## elbows (Dec 4, 2012)

editor said:


> Looking forward to your comments!
> 
> I keep saying it but touchscreen laptops are going to be the absolute norm soon. Once you get used to one, going back to itty-bitty trackpads is like stepping back into the past.


That should be the case, in great part because trackpads and rubber nipples were never much fun. What is less certain is whether the mouse will bite the dust for certain tasks that are not particularly well-suited to touch screens. In theory the pressure-sensitive stylus could fill that role for many of the tasks in question, but its not exactly been a technology thats set the world on fire before now.

I would have been more likely to sell something so I could buy some kind of Windows RT device if only they supported such styli, but to get such a thing you have to look at the next class of device up, the atom-powered full windows 8 machines. And the only one of those I've read a half-proper review of so far, the Samsung ATIV SmartPC with Clover Trail atom cpu, suggests its half-baked at this point and the price is not extremely attractive. And the full-on pc i5, i7 etc tablets mostly have all the flaws of the traditional tablets pc's: poor battery length, weight & heat issues.


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## elbows (Dec 4, 2012)

maldwyn said:


> I think the whole keyboard undercarriage seriously gets it the way when it comes to touchscreen laptops - or perhaps i'm just lazy preferring instead to lounge on the sofa with a MBP parked on my belly/chest and an Apple magic trackpad down by my side.


 
Reviewers are not quite convinced that the Lenovo Yoga design has solved that one either.


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## editor (Dec 4, 2012)

maldwyn said:


> I think the whole keyboard undercarriage seriously gets it the way when it comes to touchscreen laptops - or perhaps i'm just lazy preferring instead to lounge on the sofa with a MBP parked on my belly/chest and an Apple magic trackpad down by my side.


Have you ever used a touchscreen laptop?


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## editor (Dec 4, 2012)

elbows said:


> Reviewers are not quite convinced that the Lenovo Yoga design has solved that one either.


Filed under 'nice idea, but, well, nah'.


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## elbows (Dec 6, 2012)

A review of the atom-powered Samsung tablet (next level up from these RT tablets) that gives it a pretty hefty thumbs down in oh so many ways:

http://www.engadget.com/2012/12/05/samsung-ativ-smart-pc-att-review/#continued


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## Kid_Eternity (Dec 6, 2012)

maldwyn said:


> I think the whole keyboard undercarriage seriously gets it the way when it comes to touchscreen laptops - or perhaps i'm just lazy preferring instead to lounge on the sofa with a MBP parked on my belly/chest and an Apple magic trackpad down by my side.


 
Heh.

Not seeing much love for these new tablets, in fact it's looking like MS could have a big fat flop on its hand.


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## mwgdrwg (Dec 7, 2012)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Heh.
> 
> Not seeing much love for these new tablets, in fact it's looking like MS could have a big fat flop on its hand.


 
It's certainly looking that way.


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## Kid_Eternity (Dec 7, 2012)

I'm just hoping that if that's the case it blows up sooner than later to avoid the risk they might fuck up the xbox or next one with this crap...


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## elbows (Dec 8, 2012)

Developers, developers, developers, oops:

http://www.engadget.com/2012/12/07/gaming-company-derides-microsoft-rt-marketplace-/


> UK gaming outfit Rubicon has castigated Microsoft after claiming a Windows RTport of its _Great Big War Game_ made a meager £52 ($83) in its first week in thestore. The company was particularly incensed at Redmond's lack of promotional features to help the title's visibility, claiming that "if you're familiar with (its) new store, this means our app is forever consigned to the garbage bin." The company added that the iOS, Android "and even RIM" stores have promoted the app, which it said was widely lauded, and felt that after investing £10,000 on the port, "we got spat on" by the software giant. The developer punctuated its blog statement by saying it won't work with Microsoft again, and "that store is going to look mighty bleak for a long time to come" if it doesn't change its policy. No doubt there's some sour grapes getting squeezed here, but it's fair to say that RT is much in need of some sweeter news.
> 
> *Update:* Having a good ol' moan sometimes does the trick. Rubicon has deleted its original blog post, saying that Microsoft has "graciously decided work with us to iron out the problems and get us past this incident."


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## DieselBar (Jan 15, 2013)

Been running the Asus Win8 RT tablet for a while now, will write up in some more detail later but basically I would say don't bother.

Was also running a iPhone 4s and Nexus 4 together for a couple weeks but not sure that a debate I want to get involved in


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## Kid_Eternity (Jan 15, 2013)

DieselBar said:


> Been running the Asus Win8 RT tablet for a while now, will write up in some more detail later but basically I would say don't bother.
> 
> Was also running a iPhone 4s and Nexus 4 together for a couple weeks but not sure that a debate I want to get involved in


 
Look forward to hearing your experiences with Win 8.


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## elbows (Jan 15, 2013)

I was wondering how you were getting on. Sorry to hear it doesnt sound like you had much fun with it, and that the lacklustre reviews were probably fair.

So Windows RT is a dud to be avoided until further notice.

Regarding full Windows 8 tablets I havent seen a gushing review of an atom model yet, and various models that might be better than the available Samsung one, like the Lenovo, have seen their release dates pushed back several times. If the atom versions ever manage to get their act together then they will surely be a better prospect that Windows RT ones, since they will run all apps and there isnt a huge price difference. The problem is they arent exactly bulging with processing muscle to run high-end apps.

On the proper laptop-equivalent processor front, coming by the end of the month we have the Surface Pro availability and will finally learn what the UK price is like. But until Intel manage to make their proper processors run much cooler & with less power requirements, I expect that Surface Pro and other core i3/i5/i7 Windows 8 tablets will not initially be the best possible balance of compromises, and will be more like the previous windows tablets that have been around years, with just a few extra benefits from Windows 8. 

Conclusion: Longer term Windows 8 on tablets may still be a winner, but Windows RT is more likely than not doomed, and people looking for that sort of long-battery life tablet should choose an android tablet or ipad. For those looking for something more capable, eg with a stylus, and who can live with battery life that is not comparable to ipads and android tablets, you may just find one of the upcoming tablets good enough. But most people should probably skip this first generation of Windows 8 tablets and wait till at least the next iteration of Intels chips at least. The best of all worlds is not yet possible, though its still possible the Surface Pro might be quite nice in some ways and not fatally compromised. If the UK price isnt completely terrible I shall give some consideration to getting one for zbrush etc work.


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## Kid_Eternity (Jan 16, 2013)

Had an interesting conversation with someone recently who thinks the Surface will be huge in hot desking cloud computing enabled offices in future. The idea would be that employees would be given a Surface which would be connected to the company cloud intranet, they'd not have desks but just monitors which the Surface could dock with. They go home and be able to carry on working, go to meetings, take notes on the Surface and continue working back at their desk...


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## editor (Jan 16, 2013)

elbows said:


> Regarding full Windows 8 tablets I havent seen a gushing review of an atom model yet, and various models that might be better than the available Samsung one, like the Lenovo, have seen their release dates pushed back several times.


I had a good go on the HP Envy x2 11.6" touchscreen convertible laptop and thought it was an absolutely fantastic device. 

I was really surprised by how I liked using it - if it wasn't priced so highly (£799) I would have had second thoughts before buying my Asus Transformer.


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## elbows (Jan 16, 2013)

Yeah for that price it needs at least one or more of the following in my book:

A CPU thats better than an atom
A higher resolution
A stylus
More apps/games that are certain to be optimised for the cpu & graphics being less powerful than decent mid to high range traditional laptops


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## editor (Jan 16, 2013)

It was really, really user friendly though and it was actually _fun_ to play around with.

I reckon once people get used to the idea, they're not going to be too impressed with boring old laptops, most of which are already plenty powerful enough for most people's needs.


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## elbows (Jan 16, 2013)

I havent lost faith in the idea, but I dont think its just a case of people getting used to it. Time is needed not just to progress on that front, but to get the spec, apps and price into a much better balance. Last time I looked at the app store it was not fun, but Im about 4-6 weeks or so out of date so need to take another look.

I think the idea of having a tablet or a tablet-laptop hybrid is safe now, but what cannot yet be fully banked upon is that enough people will get the idea that windows is the OS to choose for this. Hell even Windows RT could redeem itself if the apps prove the platform good enough over time, but its questionable as to whether it will get enough momentum for us to ever find out. But at least apps designed for RT know they are saddled with limited ARM cpu power, whereas atom machines are still potentially caught between two world like the netbooks were. As such they may also require the sorts of apps that RT needs in order to make the experience compelling enough.

One example is whether as a user you would rather have a cutdown version of photoshop that runs well enough on the device not to cause frustration but doesnt have the same feature-set as the 'proper' photoshop, or want to full one. Are the atom machines going to run the full ones nicely or are they going to be annoyingly slow on many occasions? With atom the answer is pretty sure to be 'too slow'. So why bother, why not spend less and get a tablet that has lots of cutdown tablet apps, or spend more and get a full-powered machine, albeit with some battery issues that will gradually lessen as intel releases new iterations of its decent cpus? Thats the awkward gap the atoms are in, and the less than bargain price and lack of apps have stuffed the RT versions in a similar way for now, compared to ipads or android tablets. The 'interface formerly known as metro' is not fun enough on its own to override these concerns, especially when there are still very microsoft-like aspects to the experience such as windows update and massive amounts of storage space being used up by the OS.


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## DieselBar (Jan 22, 2013)

Sorry too busy recently, a quick write-up

Hardware
I don’t really like the styling but it is solidly built, hinge feels solid and long lasting, much better build quality than I have seen on previous Apple tablets

As Tablet
AS noted before the app situation is really really bad, worse than webos, have not looked for a week or so but there is not anything usable for twitter even. Before I got the Asus I had a HP Touchpad (not really used much anymore) and had an iPad3 for a couple months, and I so much prefer the aspect ratio on these, the Asus is basically useless in portrait mode, websites feel cramped and mail app will only show one pane etc.  I guess part of the problem is getting enough width for the keyboard, docked it is not so bad.

As Laptop (docked)
I'm using it pretty much as a laptop with v good battery life, I am mostly remote desk topped into work and it works well for this.  The combination of track pad and touchscreen is a lot better that the iPad I was using, touch on a laptop defiantly is an advantage, handy when browsing, remote desktop and most places it is nice to have the option.

Windows 8 RT
Windows 8 does have some good features like the charms, multitasking works better than any other non-desktop OS I’ve used (the screen aspect comes in handy here, can have side to side apps), it does feel good to use as quoted by editor. The problem is it feels rushed and buggy, until a recent update the mail app was so slow I was using a smartphone to check my emails instead, you can swipe from left to right to go back in a browser but then the page needs reloading?  Often when detaching from the keyboard the display will go blank and I will have to hard-restart the machine.  The mixture of windows desktop/touch interface is confused a lot of the core windows apps are located on the desktop along with office and a standard IE but you cannot install anything else (even RT apps).  Obviously no x86 windows apps at all but windows update is there and very active, got a 15 minute countdown to auto restart recently which isn’t too user-friendly!  I guess a lot of vulnerabilities will carry across from x86 and the OS is a lot more complicated that Android/iOS.

Was hoping to plug a scanner in but there has been no driver class released for scanner so it is not possible to write any drivers for them.

Overall I think your analysis is pretty much spot on FridgeMagnet I would have been better off with either an iPad (home) or Android tablet with keyboard (work), price and functionality wise.


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## Kid_Eternity (Jan 22, 2013)

Pricing for the Pro has been announced, 900 dollars...


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## elbows (Jan 22, 2013)

They actually announced the pricing at the end of November but they reannounced it today and the north america release date is new (Feb 9th)


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## elbows (Jan 22, 2013)

Also keep in mind that you dont get a keyboard for that price. All the same it doesnt compare too badly with traditional x86 tablets, although I'll have to wait for the UK price to see how far I can stretch that point. Lack of UK price & availability info pisses me off.


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## elbows (Jan 22, 2013)

For those looking for something inbetween, having given up on the RT models but not yet the atom ones that run proper windows, the Asus Vivo Tab Smart is £399, albeit another £89.99 for keyboard. And its called the Vivo Tab ME400 for the UK:

http://www.engadget.com/2013/01/22/asus-vivotab-me400-uk-399-pounds/

With these sorts of prices for the atom ones it makes the RT ones seem even more shit.


----------



## DieselBar (Jan 22, 2013)

DieselBar said:


> Overall I think your analysis is pretty much spot on FridgeMagnet I would have been better off with either an iPad (home) or Android tablet with keyboard (work), price and functionality wise.


 
Sorry elbows I meant your analysis on this page.

Writing that has reminded me about looking into Microsoft remoteapp, basically I can install say spotify on a server and run it remotely on my tablet, performance can be pretty good even over 3g apparently. Gives access to most full windows programs but obviously not a simple solution


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## DieselBar (Jan 22, 2013)

elbows said:


> For those looking for something inbetween, having given up on the RT models but not yet the atom ones that run proper windows, the Asus Vivo Tab Smart is £399, albeit another £89.99 for keyboard. And its called the Vivo Tab ME400 for the UK:
> 
> http://www.engadget.com/2013/01/22/asus-vivotab-me400-uk-399-pounds/
> 
> With these sorts of prices for the atom ones it makes the RT ones seem even more shit.


 
That is a pretty good price, wonder how much the battery suffers on atom


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## elbows (Jan 22, 2013)

DieselBar said:


> That is a pretty good price, wonder how much the battery suffers on atom


 
I think its probably ok, although I'm mostly going by a translated German review of the Samsung atom tablet.

http://www.notebookcheck.net/Review-Samsung-ATIV-Smart-PC-XE500T1C-Convertible.86558.0.html



> The ATIV lasted for *270 minutes* before it was drained in the *load*scenario. The *read test* ran for *883 minutes* before the battery gave up. We could browse through websites for over seven hours (*434 minutes, Wi-Fi test*). That is a decent runtime for the 30 Wh battery.


 
I've not studied the spec in detail to ensure they are equivalent, but the modern atoms certainly seem better than the old ones. I suspect the main issue of the atom windows 8 tablets is whether they will feel too much like underpowered netbooks of yesteryear for a range of tasks, given the temptation to run 'proper' windows apps on them.

Thanks for your kind words about my analysis. Due to budget constraints and a desire to get as much performance as possible out of windows 8 and not get put-off by bad first-generation hardware experience or software teething problems, I've decided to give up on windows tablets for now and sit back and see how things evolve over the coming year. I've ordered a 'designed for windows 8' 23" multi-touch monitor instead, as I really want to get a job doing multi-touch development so cannot afford to sit on the sidelines completely.


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## Kid_Eternity (Jan 29, 2013)

Wow this is some serious storage usage for an OS!


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## beesonthewhatnow (Jan 29, 2013)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Wow this is some serious storage usage for an OS!


There really aren't enough facepalms in the world.


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## Kid_Eternity (Jan 29, 2013)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> There really aren't enough facepalms in the world.


 
It's surreal, no idea why it takes up so much space...


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## beesonthewhatnow (Jan 29, 2013)

Kid_Eternity said:


> It's surreal, no idea why it takes up so much space...


I'd hazard a guess it's because MS have massively missed the point of what a tablet OS should be


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## Kid_Eternity (Jan 29, 2013)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> I'd hazard a guess it's because MS have massively missed the point of what a tablet OS should be


 
Just a little. Kinda throws all those price comparisons out of wack too.


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## FridgeMagnet (Jan 29, 2013)

Kid_Eternity said:


> It's surreal, no idea why it takes up so much space...


Shit wasteful programming. At a guess. 41 gig for an OS?


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## beesonthewhatnow (Jan 29, 2013)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Shit wasteful programming. At a guess. 41 gig for an OS?


It's their stupid idea that everything should effectively have the same OS - tablet, phone and desktop.


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## Kid_Eternity (Jan 29, 2013)

So how does the 128 iPad and 128 Surface now stack up against each other? If MS were clever they'd give all new Surface buyers a free fat lump of cloud storage to offset the negativity of this storage issue.


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## FridgeMagnet (Jan 29, 2013)

The 128 gig iPad isn't really a comparitor here.

The issue is that all Surface tablaptops have to be at least 64 gig. Unless they make one between 32 and 64.


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## elbows (Jan 30, 2013)

At least the standard Surface with Windows RT had the excuse of coming with a version of office, although that still wasnt enough to prevent me ranting about the space issues with that one. Not sure what is included with the Surface Pro besides the OS but it must be something. Oh, according to the end of this article one of the things is a recovery partition 

http://www.latimes.com/business/tec...storage-128-83-64-23-20130129,0,3306705.story

At least the press seem to have picked up on this issue promptly this time, a lot of them failed to make any mention of the space issue when doing their initial reviews of the standard Surface.

And no I dont think you can compare the ipad to the Surface Pro, very different beast since the Surface Pro has a laptop class CPU and associated lack of battery life, etc. Although I dont know the UK price it certainly seems more reasonably priced than the previous generations of 'proper' windows tablet but its hard to imagine it occupying much other than a niche, at least at this point. Yes in some ways Microsoft have missed the point but thats in great part because they want to miss that point, neither they nor intel want to give up on the traditional computing platforms as thats what they are good at, the only problem is it doesnt really work for tablets and so their attempts to have the best of both worlds may lead instead to the worst of both worlds, at least for a few more iterations in the case of intel.


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## beesonthewhatnow (Jan 30, 2013)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-21247688

I'd love to see how much storage space you're left with on a Surface once you've put Office 2013 on it.


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## editor (Jan 30, 2013)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> I'd hazard a guess it's because MS have massively missed the point of what a tablet OS should be


Have you tried Windows8 on a touchscreen laptop?
I was very pleasantly surprised. The space issue is ridiculous, but it's a great tablet OS.


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## beesonthewhatnow (Jan 30, 2013)

editor said:


> Have you tried Windows8 on a touchscreen laptop?
> I was very pleasantly surprised. The space issue is ridiculous, but it's a great tablet OS.


Yeah, I've tried both a laptop and a surface. I like the basic idea of it, but still think Microsoft's idea that everything needs a unified interface is flawed. The size of it and the impact of it on available tablet storage kinda backs me up I think.


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## editor (Jan 30, 2013)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> Yeah, I've tried both a laptop and a surface. I like the basic idea of it, but still think Microsoft's idea that everything needs a unified interface is flawed. The size of it and the impact of it on available tablet storage kinda backs me up I think.


I'm not saying that surface is the right product, but I think Microsoft are absolutely on the right track with a unified OS.


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## beesonthewhatnow (Jan 30, 2013)

editor said:


> I'm not saying that surface is the right product, but I think Microsoft are absolutely on the right track with a unified OS.


I just think there are too many compromises required. You end up with a "jack of all trades" product. As I've argued before, what should be key is unified data underlying everything, with interfaces specific to the device being used. Keep some basic design cues for sure, but you'll never convince me that a small 7" tablet connected to the net via a 3G data connection requires the same interface as a desktop machine with a 27" screen, keyboard and mouse and fibre optic broadband link.


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## editor (Jan 30, 2013)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> I just think there are too many compromises required. You end up with a "jack of all trades" product. As I've argued before, what should be key is unified data underlying everything, with interfaces specific to the device being used. Keep some basic design cues for sure, but you'll never convince me that a small 7" tablet connected to the net via a 3G data connection requires the same interface as a desktop machine with a 27" screen, keyboard and mouse and fibre optic broadband link.


But with Windows 8 you don't have to have the same interface. One click and you're back in the old Windows7 interface for desktops, and as programs develop and touchscreens grow in popularity (which is what Microsoft is gambling on) it will feel more unified across multiple devices.


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## Kid_Eternity (Jan 30, 2013)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-21247688
> 
> I'd love to see how much storage space you're left with on a Surface once you've put Office 2013 on it.


 
Indeed. Really stupid move by MS this...hopefully this will change over time and they'll up their cloud offering to offset the lack of local storage.


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## Kid_Eternity (Jan 30, 2013)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> I just think there are too many compromises required. You end up with a "jack of all trades" product. As I've argued before, what should be key is unified data underlying everything, with interfaces specific to the device being used. Keep some basic design cues for sure, but you'll never convince me that a small 7" tablet connected to the net via a 3G data connection requires the same interface as a desktop machine with a 27" screen, keyboard and mouse and fibre optic broadband link.


 
Indeed. Even Apple haven't been silly enough to try the one ring to rule them all strategy. Far better at this stage in computing to cross fertilise function and feature and let the market evolve toward a unified experience. Think MS may have jumped the shark on this.


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## elbows (Jan 30, 2013)

Microsoft did it because it was the only way to try to harness their existing position, ie OS dominance. When they start from scratch they end up with pathetic market share and they left it rather late to enter the game in that way. It's not surprising that its been a risky and flawed strategy, but its easy to see why they felt the need to go down this route.


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## magneze (Jan 30, 2013)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> It's their stupid idea that everything should effectively have the same OS - tablet, phone and desktop.


That might have worked if they hadn't picked the Windows desktop kernel as the one. Muppets.


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## UnderAnOpenSky (Jan 30, 2013)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Shit wasteful programming. At a guess. 41 gig for an OS?


 
Apparantly 10GB is a recovery partition.


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## UnderAnOpenSky (Jan 30, 2013)

Worth noting when comparing it to an ipad, you've got an SD slot, which is supports the newer xc format, so up to 2tb (although the cards don't yet exist)


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## beesonthewhatnow (Jan 30, 2013)

A 2tb SD card is just getting silly. Trying to picture that much storage capacity in something that size makes my head hurt


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## UnderAnOpenSky (Jan 30, 2013)

I suspect we're a few years away from it yet, but I can't wait! I see 128gb cards are close to £100 now though.


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## editor (Feb 8, 2013)

Looks like the MacBook Air is just as bad when it comes to hogging disk space. 


> Everyone’s been making fun of the Surface Pro for being so stingy on hard drive space. The 128GB version of the Surface Pro only has 90GB of free space (originally reported to be 83GB but since boosted). Where the hell did the other 38 gigs go? Well, you could ask the same question to the 128GB version of the MacBook Air. The MBA only has 92GB of free space. What!
> 
> And get this. With a few tweaks (namely removing the recovery image), the Surface Pro 128GB actually has more usable space than the equivalent 128GB MacBook Air


 






http://www.gizmodo.co.uk/2013/02/wh...e-128gb-surface-pro-or-the-128gb-macbook-air/


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## mrs quoad (Feb 8, 2013)

I guess the reason I'm less shocked by that is that I see a Macbook Air (or, indeed, netbook, ultrabook, or any other explicitly full-OS / non-mobile OS device) as a separate kind of entity. I buy a laptop because I want something that's capable of running fully functional versions of whatever application it is that I want to use. Like MS Office. Or Photoshop. Or Logic Pro (on the teeny Macbook Air I very briefly owned). Or Civilization IV.

IMU, part of the reason that Surface was being criticised was pretty much that - it was (IMU) essentially running a limited OS, capable of only delivering tablet-type apps, with a pretty traditional tablet interface; yet it was taking up the amount of legroom that you'd expect a full OS to use.

So... I find that comparison slightly confusing, because if anything it's (IMO) making the same point. It's identifying that, yes, the Surface is using exactly as much space as a laptop. Except whilst grumblers were saying 'OMFG! That tablet's losing as much accessible memory as a laptop / desktop,' Gizmodo are saying 'OMFG! That tablet/s only losing as much accessible memory as a laptop / desktop!' Either way, someone's missed the point.

IMU the Surface tablet (like all tablets) is very limited in comparison to laptops / desktop computers, wrt its OS and functionality. Isn't it? Or is it something that's way beyond the functionality of what most people'd see as a 'mobile OS' or tablet apps?



e2a: would you get exactly the same data if you had a 128gb W8 netbook? Or very similar data from an iMac or a W8 super-awesome desktop refitted exclusively with a 128gb SSD? IMU the 'issue' / surprise has never been that a 20gb OS / app bundle _exists. _It's that it's been put onto a platform that has previously seen nothing like that level of bloatware, in a field where none of its competitors (afaik) have anything that comes within a country mile of being similarly... expansive.


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## elbows (Feb 8, 2013)

Yes the entire point of the surface space outrage is that people were used to many gigs being gone on computers, but for some reason rather different expectations evolved in regard to modern smartphones and tablets.

Given that the Surface Pro is actually far more like the older type of windows tablets = equivalent to a laptop, I can see why people may think its not a fair comparison in this case (but would be with the surface RT because thats equivalent to ipads and android ARM-powered tablets).

Other comparisons between ipads/androids & the Surface Pro will also reveal a world of differences and doomed expectations, eg battery life.


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## editor (Feb 8, 2013)

mrs quoad said:


> I buy a laptop because I want something that's capable of running fully functional versions of whatever application it is that I want to use. Like MS Office. Or Photoshop.


Surface Pro runs all those programs.


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## elbows (Feb 8, 2013)

The Surface Pro launch event in NYC has been cancelled due to the blizzard. I think it was going to be a pretty low-key event anyway, and the device will still be available in the US & Canada on the 9th.

I still want to know what the UK price is going to be.


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## mrs quoad (Feb 8, 2013)

editor said:


> Surface Pro runs all those programs.


You have such a sideways way of making a point sometimes 

"Both," rather than "all," given you've edited out two of the progs I listed, leaving 1 app (and one suite). 

SO. Can it not run the others? Or is it just that you're not sure?

Can it run FULL versions of photoshop / office? Functionally identical to the full versions you could run on your new pc? I'm not sure, given your rather elusive editing & response leaves it possible that surface can only run limited / tablet versions!


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## elbows (Feb 8, 2013)

Its simple really. There is the original surface tablet = Windows RT = matches your original point.

There is the Surface Pro = proper intel CPU = proper windows = proper windows apps.


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## elbows (Feb 8, 2013)

And both sorts of Surface suffer from the hard drive space issue. The press almost entirely missed the story with the Surface RT (and Windows RT tablets from other manufacturers) and then very much noticed it for the Surface Pro, which arguably is the wrong way round when it comes to comparing these devices to equivalents running other non-MS operating systems.


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## editor (Feb 8, 2013)

mrs quoad said:


> Can it run FULL versions of photoshop / office? Functionally identical to the full versions you could run on your new pc?


Yes. FULL versions. The only reason I left out Logic Pro and Civilization IV is because I didn't know if they're available for PCs.

But here's your answer - something you could have Googled yourself in about 5 seconds:


> I spent a fair amount of time using Surface Pro for Photoshop work, and the machine delivered all the raw processing performance I needed for website production. Files opened lickety-split, and resizes, rotations, and filter conversions zipped along at a rapid clip—including work on a 70MB TIFF file. *The Photoshop performance is remarkable when you consider that Surface Pro is only half a pound heavier and 4mm thicker than the latest iPad.*
> http://www.pcworld.com/article/2027...ows-tablet-but-still-cant-close-the-deal.html


It's rubbish at Civilisation though.

HTH. HAND.


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## elbows (Feb 8, 2013)

editor said:


> Yes. FULL versions. The only reason I left out Logic Pro and Civilization IV is because I didn't know if they're available for PCs.


 
To be fair its mostly Microsofts fault for doing a shit job educating consumers as to the difference, and in the first months of talk here about Surface, Windows 8 & Windows RT you also displayed ambiguities in your posts as to whether you understood the difference when it came to app compatibility despite my frequent woffle-fests on the subject.


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## mrs quoad (Feb 8, 2013)

Right. See how much easier it is to give a full & non-smarmy answer? 

TDH. HAND.


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## editor (Feb 8, 2013)

mrs quoad said:


> Right. See how much easier it is to give a full & non-smarmy answer?
> 
> TDH. HAND.


My first answer wasn't smarmy at all. You're the one itching for a fight and dishing out really tedious patronising lectures because I didn't answer every single point of your oh-so-important question that you could have Googled the answer yourself in seconds.


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## mrs quoad (Feb 8, 2013)

editor said:


> My first answer wasn't smarmy at all. You're the one itching for a fight and dishing out really tedious patronising lectures because I didn't answer every single point of your oh-so-important question that you could have Googled the answer yourself in seconds.


I was in the gym. 

I had a look at urban, which was open on my browser, and saw 1 notification. 

I followed it & replied, and based on quite an extensive experience of you answering selectively, I presumed that your selective answer might be intentional. So sought to clarify whether or not it was. 

Tbh, given the speed of 3G in my gym, answering / asking about your selectiveness (and lack of acknowledgment that you'd been selective) was probably considerably quicker than waiting for google / filtering irrelevant answers


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## elbows (Feb 8, 2013)




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## editor (Feb 8, 2013)

mrs quoad said:


> <one long, disruptive personal attack>


I answered your fucking question the best I could, but it seems that wasn't enough for you, so another needless, patronising personal attack follows. I'm getting really fed up with this.

Can we get back on topic now please?


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## elbows (Feb 8, 2013)

I'm just catching up with the numerous Surface Pro reviews that came out this week. I had a migraine with aura earlier so I've only managed one so far, but its pretty much exactly what I feared by the sounds of it:

http://www.engadget.com/2013/02/05/microsoft-surface-pro-review/

My summary based on that review:

The screen, keyboard and trackpad feel too small for serious work and the high screen res requires some annoying text etc scaling for certain scenarios. The device is a bit heavy to get comfortable with. The battery life is completely shit, even worse than I feared when it was first announced. Performance is good. The fucking fan comes on and whines when you do any heavy lifting, including watching fullscreen videos  The kickstand is neat but offers no flexibility when it comes to viewing angles.

If you were happy with previous windows tablets from yesteryear then this thing may seem like a nice little step forward and a good price, but you cant really compare it to less powerful tablets that have a very different set of compromises (eg iPad) without thinking WTF. People who dont have a very specific specific creative use for this sort of class of tablet, eg stylus use with some kind of art/design app, would probably be completely mad to consider this device or even the equivalents from other manufacturers. Nothing has happened in recent years that enable x86 tablets to overcome their past flaws and specific set of compromises. Windows 8 is the best version of windows yet for this kind of thing but it cannot work miracles and has not managed to merge the world of mobile & full OS's into a seamless and deeply compelling experience by any means, not even close.

If I were to have the money to indulge in a machine with stylus that can run proper apps, I would have to think very carefully as I suspect given the inherent compromises with x86 tablets I may as well get one with a slightly bigger screen than this.


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## elbows (Feb 8, 2013)

Same 'doomed compromise' flavour to the WSJ's short review:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324900204578285963270503862.html


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## elbows (Feb 8, 2013)

The Verge review tries really hard to be positive where it can, but it inevitably reaches the same conclusion: who is this for? Get an ipad or one of those nice new multi-touch ultrabooks, depending on which set of useful compromises you want, not the surface pro with its impractical set of compromises and disgusting battery life. 

http://www.theverge.com/2013/2/5/3955130/microsoft-surface-pro-review


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## elbows (Feb 8, 2013)

Although to be quite honest some of the ultrabooks have a very similar set of compromises including battery life and not being very ergonomic in tablet mode, and they lack the stylus, but at least they arent as cramped.


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## elbows (Feb 8, 2013)

On a more positive note, these benchmarks show that the Surface Pro compares well to any ultrabook:

http://news.cnet.com/8301-10805_3-57568209-75/microsoft-surface-pro-shows-off-its-inner-ultrabook/

Combine this with the resolution of the screen and the stylus, and if I were a rich man I'd still be looking to try one with zbrush (or photoshop etc if I had any ability to draw/design in 2D).

Given how pants the battery life is, I'm kinda glad that a lack of money or credit will stop me looking at x86 tablets or laptops until well after intels next generation of ultrabook-class cpus are out later this year.


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## elbows (Feb 8, 2013)

Zdnet manages to be far more positive than the other sites I've looked at so far, almost suspiciously so at times.

http://www.zdnet.com/is-the-brilliant-quirky-flawed-surface-pro-right-for-you-7000010882/

http://www.zdnet.com/goodbye-surfac...wont-miss-getting-work-done-again-7000011067/

I dont doubt that they make some points which will ring true for the niche of users whom will be well served by the Surface Pro, but the question remains as to exactly how many of these users there will be.

Which brings me to another point which gives me an excuse to rant about the quality of IT journalism again: How come all of of these reviews are acting like all the previous generations of windows tablets never happened? I believe it was around a decade ago that I first purchased a windows tablet. And yet it is apparently too much to ask that someone might compare the Surface Pro to all the x86 tablets that went before it, and still exist to this day. Pathetic!


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## elbows (Feb 8, 2013)

One of the reasons I still want to know what the UK price will be despite the flaws of the device, is so I can compare it to the equivalent tablets from other manufacturers. Admittedly there isnt much choice yet, not once the ones with slower CPUs, lower res or no stylus are taken out of the equation. Specifically I can only think of one thats available right now, the Samsung ATIV Smart PC Pro 700T (not to be confused with other ATIV models such as the one with atom processor).

Here is a fairly brief review of it:

http://www.pcworld.idg.com.au/review/notebooks/samsung/ativ_smart_pc_pro_700t_xe700t1c-a02au/451729

I have seen the 64GB version that looks like it does not come with keyboard in stock in the UK for £955. And the 128GB version with keyboard for £1056.

On first glance the biggest flaw with this device is that the lack of battery in the keyboard part makes it rather top-heavy (prone to falling over) and misses the opportunity to increase battery life.


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## elbows (Feb 8, 2013)

Oh and its main potential advantage for some users over Microsofts Surface Pro is that the screen of the Samsung is an inch bigger.


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## editor (Feb 9, 2013)

I like the idea of Surface very much but there's nothing there yet to make me want to buy one. That said, some of the new breed of touchscreen Windows 8 laptops look absolutely fantastic.


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## mrs quoad (Feb 9, 2013)

editor said:


> I answered your fucking question the best I could, but it seems that wasn't enough for you, so another needless, patronising personal attack follows. I'm getting really fed up with this.
> 
> Can we get back on topic now please?


I see its not just data you don't bother to read or understand, it's posts and explanations, too 

Apologies for presuming that your evasiveness mirrored previous evasiveness, when you argued at some length that an Asus transformer was a "functional equivalent" for a laptop running a full / non-mobile OS. And apologies for presuming your evasiveness and dishonesty might've been intentional and purposeful, as it has been in the past, with numerous instances of you posting up data that's total shit and then intentionally avoiding any attempt to engage in any discussion of its quality. With the constant refrain "why don't you find out yourself, I just post this stuff?"

I was clearly wrong on this one, and should've taken your incomplete answer as full & honest. Apologies for presuming the gaps were dishonesty - that was unjustified & unfair of me. 

And, yes, it strikes me as eminently reasonable for equipment with similar levels of functionality to have similar levels of inaccessible memory / hd. Perhaps the difficulty / home of contention has been that the same (?) level of bloatware / memory hogging has been put onto the non-pro tab, which doesn't have the same level of functionality (again, imu?). That being the point I was originally trying to clarify / make!

HAND, ay


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## elbows (Feb 9, 2013)

Chinny reckon, it couldnt simply have been the case that you didnt have a clue what the Surface Pro was/hadnt noticed the Gizmodo article was about the Surface Pro/leapt to the defence of Macbook Air without checking your facts.


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## editor (Feb 9, 2013)

mrs quoad said:


> Apologies for presuming that your evasiveness mirrored previous evasiveness....And apologies for presuming your evasiveness and dishonesty might've been intentional and purposeful, as it has been in the past...


Please stop these disruptive and spiteful personal attacks.


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## editor (Feb 9, 2013)

elbows said:


> If I were to have the money to indulge in a machine with stylus that can run proper apps, I would have to think very carefully as I suspect given the inherent compromises with x86 tablets I may as well get one with a slightly bigger screen than this.


I get the feeling that if Samsung put their minds to it, they'd be able to produce a much less compromised product than the Surface.

But there again, maybe the public will take to the Surface - after all, many pundits thought the Samsung Note was a terrible idea for a phone, and it seems that the Chromebook concept is also doing far better than some expected.


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## c01642 (Feb 11, 2013)

Theres a few videos popping up on you tube now showing its gaming performance.


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## elbows (Feb 26, 2013)

Still no UK price or availability info for the Surface Pro. No idea what they are playing at, not that many people care or alternatives from other manufacturers are in plentiful supply & variety yet.


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## elbows (Feb 26, 2013)

In fact the competition on the 'proper windows with proper i5 intel chip' is looking even worse than I thought it would be months ago.

In terms of devices that are actually available, if you dont mind spending at least a grand then there is a Samsung. And there is the Acer Iconia W700 which has a rather attractive price of around £600 but an extremely ugly/clunky form factor. the dock is disgusting and you end up with too many separate parts to haul around.

There are quite a lot of atom machines in stock these days, but old netbook levels of performance are not too inspiring.


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## editor (Feb 26, 2013)

A friend of mine was DJing off a netbook last week. Which I thought was kinda retro.


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## UnderAnOpenSky (Feb 26, 2013)

Brave man!


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## elbows (Mar 25, 2013)

I've not really researched the details myself but apparently the stylus of the surface pro doesnt work fully with most apps - eg no pressure sensitivity until they can convince the likes of Adobe to include support.

Some other typical microsoft-sounding bugs exist with the pro too, such as some users having their devices fail to come back from sleep mode.

All sounds like typical Microsoft, they just dont seem to be able to get away from these sorts of experience-ruining phenomenon. I was fairly interested in the Surface range when first announced, but now I have no intention of going anywhere near a windows 8 tablet of any kind for a very long time. They simply havent learnt enough about what has made competing systems popular in the meantime.


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## elbows (May 10, 2013)

Apparently the issue of the pressure sensitivity of the stylus not working with photoshop may have been fixed:

http://www.engadget.com/2013/05/10/surface-pro-driver-adobe-photoshop/


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## Kid_Eternity (Aug 17, 2013)

Had a proper play on the pro today with that flat rubber keyboard. It was utterly terrible, you have to really wack the keys to get the damn thing to register your typing meaning your WPM slows right down breaking your flow if you're trying to type anything.


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## elbows (Sep 23, 2013)

Microsoft are set to announce the 2nd generation of Surface tablets later today. The rumours are nothing stunning, with the basic surface updated to HD and the Pro updated to Haswell which should improve the battery life a bit. Docks and a keyboard with battery in are rumoured to expand the options for Pro users with plenty of cash. Price remains key, but so far most indications are that Microsoft will stick the the usual range and not learn from the original Surface RT sales disaster. But perhaps the rumours are wrong on that front. There may also be a Surface Mini.

After the original Surface RT price cut I may have been tempted to develop some music apps for it, except Microsoft seem to have failed again to include a MIDI API in Windows RT 8.1. Just another reason to avoid this version of Windows and look at products from other manufacturers that have full Windows 8 and use intel atom chips rather than ARM ones.


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## ruffneck23 (Sep 23, 2013)

just got a top of the range ' Helix ' to play with, very nice on first impression although quite heave when all together

Shame windows 8 isnt all that


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## editor (Sep 23, 2013)

The new tablets look pretty damn good, actually. Much better battery life, and they've provided the option for an Asus Transformer-style, add-on battery keyboard with backlit keys, plus a dock with most of the ports you'd ever need.






http://www.wirefresh.com/microsoft-...2-and-surface-2-price-specs-and-release-date/

The music cover sounds interesting too: 





http://www.wirefresh.com/microsoft-unveils-surface-music-cover-for-musicians-and-laptop-djs/


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## elbows (Sep 23, 2013)

I'm glad they are playing with the possibilities for surface covers. I can't say the music one is terribly inspiring since it seems to be aimed squarely at the very casual music remixing crowd and is probably tied into the latest cheesy pop content. But at least they are trying something, any idea of price?

It is vaguely tempting to enter their remix contest using clips of Steve Ballmer and that geek who got fired over Windows 8/Surface.

As for the tablets, pretty much as expected really. The surface Pro remains an intriguing alternative to ultrabooks, and the basic Surface still needs far more compelling apps to really compete with the iPad. For now it still has Office going for it, but thats not enough to make it a winner on its own. I guess they are in it for the long-haul, which is just as well since there is no reason to expect the standard surface to gain traction quickly.


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## Kid_Eternity (Sep 24, 2013)

YAY! New shit tablets that basically no one is going to buy! w00t!


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## Bob_the_lost (Sep 24, 2013)

Kid_Eternity said:


> YAY! New shit tablets that basically no one is going to buy! w00t!


I didn't think anyone, other than perhaps you, has said they were shit. The new ones look like they've improved some of the weak points.

Having said that I think they're still priced too high to make an entry into an established marketplace.


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## elbows (Sep 24, 2013)

Bob_the_lost said:


> I didn't think anyone, other than perhaps you, has said they were shit. The new ones look like they've improved some of the weak points.
> 
> Having said that I think they're still priced too high to make an entry into an established marketplace.



Yeah. Although the Pro really lives in a market segment of high-end 'full windows' tablets thats well over a decade old. Haswell chips enable that stuff to evolve more this year than it has tended to in the past, and the price of the Surface Pro is quite reasonable for this segment. It just happens that this segment has traditionally been almost invisible to non-business and even many business consumers, and doesn't come across as a phenomenon with momentum like the iPad and android tablet market has.

The standard surface now has an appropriate screen resolution for the higher end of the ipad-like tablet segment. But to compete properly with the iPad, Office is not enough and a shitload of other quality apps are required. Some of these will come, slowly, by virtue of Windows 8 apps not developed for tablet machines in particular, and efforts such as doing a deal with Unity to make it possible to port Unity games to Windows 8 without that much effort or additional cost. Assuming the app hurdle is eventually overcome, the other issues that impede it are a lack of people getting fuzzy feelings for the Microsoft brand, and a couple of issues stemming from the windows way of doing things (e.g. large amounts of storage space used up by the OS as soon as you buy the device, and the 'joy' of windows updates).

Even if these factors combine to make Microsofts success in this sector a very slow crawl over many, many years, it really doesn't matter in the way it did for the likes of WebOS and Blackberry tablets. Microsoft can afford to suffer dismal sales of its own tablets for years without being killed as a company. And ultimately its the survival of their windows platform that they care about, not the success of their own hardware. If I were Microsoft I'd be far more bothered by the poor reception of Windows 8 than of the Surface tablets, but this is a long game.


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## Kid_Eternity (Sep 24, 2013)

Bob_the_lost said:


> I didn't think anyone, other than perhaps you, has said they were shit. The new ones look like they've improved some of the weak points.
> 
> Having said that I think they're still priced too high to make an entry into an established marketplace.



If people didn't think they were shit why did they sell so utterly badly? The 'improvements' are lipstick on a pig.


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## Bob_the_lost (Sep 24, 2013)

Kid_Eternity said:


> If people didn't think they were shit why did they sell so utterly badly? The 'improvements' are lipstick on a pig.


Price, established - possibly even saturated- market and restricted application range as they were new.

As everyone else has been saying as you spew mindless FUD about...


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## Kid_Eternity (Sep 24, 2013)

Bob_the_lost said:


> Price, established - possibly even saturated- market and restricted application range as they were new.
> 
> As everyone else has been saying as you spew mindless FUD about...



That's bollox as the fact that other non Apple tablets have managed to sell a few in exactly the same market. The Surface has failed (even MS admitted it recently too) and MS have lost their way.

If it was a success Balmer wouldn't have been sacked.


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## Bob_the_lost (Sep 25, 2013)

Except they didn't (two years earlier isn't the exact same market), and a most of the high selling android tablets are, you guessed it, cheaper.

Piss off and troll another thread.


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## editor (Sep 25, 2013)

The sales weren't even that bad consider the hefty pricing and as has been said, Microsoft are in it for the long haul. The new tablets certainly look a lot more interesting to me.

Microsoft is moving a lot of Surface Pros, considering the high price for the device.


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