# Police Preparations For G20 Summit



## Bakunin (Mar 15, 2009)

I found the notice below during a Google search. In addition to bringing in some 5000 plod for the G20 summit, with security arrangements costing some 20 million pounds, they'll also be enforcing all manner of temporary rules that even govern people trying to get in an out of their own homes.

Note that there's a phone number to call for further information about what plod have planned for the summit. I doubt they'll be offering much of any use, but it's possible that a few well-aimed calls could pick up the odd tidbit here and there.

http://cms.met.police.uk/met/boroug...ews/g20_summit_important_security_information

Newham

G20 Summit important security information


The G20 Summit will be held on the 2nd of April 2009. On this day, world leaders will gather to discuss global issues. 

The Security implications for this event will regrettably, cause a number of disruptions to your daily activities between 31st March and 2nd April 2009. The full extent of these disruptions will be clarified in due course but it’s fair to say your access in out and out of your homes and vehicles are likely to be affected. 

You will therefore be required to pass through Security cordons at some point.  To enable quickest possible access to your homes, we ask you to carry two forms of Identification, one of which must be photographic. 

The steps we intend to take to preserve the security of the event are not taken lightly and we appreciate the significant implications this will have on you.  It is our aim to hold a number of public meetings before the event to keep people informed and answer any questions.  We are also working with local councillors, businesses and community groups to the same end.  

We will continue to work closely with ExCeL throughout the planning process.  A more detailed update from me will be available before 22nd March 2009.

If you have any questions on how this event is likely to effect you, please contact Police Sergeant Steve Micallef, Canning Town Safer Neighbourhoods Team on 0208 721 2840. 

We apologise that our actions will impact on your personal lives and hope you appreciate the nature of this event has significant security implications that we must address. Thank you for your cooperation and assistance during this busy time. 

Superintendent Gary Buttercase 

Newham Police


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## laptop (Mar 15, 2009)

Bakunin said:


> Superintendent Gary Buttercase
> 
> Newham Police




This is, like, a real name?


I'll give 'em a call next week, being arguably in the area...


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## Bakunin (Mar 15, 2009)

More on the preparations to secure Docklands against protest can be found here:

http://www.docklands24.co.uk/conten...ory=znews&itemid=WeED10 Mar 2009 10:30:09:493


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## derf (Mar 15, 2009)

Given the way that silly fuckers have behaved at past events i would have thought it better to hold such meeting well out of the way.

Having said that, if I lived in the area I would be well pissed off at those about to rock (or throw rocks, petrol bombs and so on)


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## derf (Mar 15, 2009)

http://www.ainfos.ca/A-Infos/ainfos38543.html

http://shiftshapers.gnn.tv/blogs/31244/Anarchists_Plan_City_Riots_for_G20_Leaders_Arrival_in_London

And history tells us there will be idiots out to smash the place up.

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=271050

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2006/11/18/1791873.htm


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## ajdown (Mar 15, 2009)

It's only a couple of days, not the end of the world really.  Why not plan a nice little holiday away for a few days, if you're in the affected area, then it won't affect you at all.

Unfortunately, as usual at these sort of events, there'll be more trouble, disruption and damage from the protesters than the summit itself.


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## yield (Mar 15, 2009)

derf said:


> Given the way that silly fuckers have behaved at past events i would have thought it better to hold such meeting well out of the way.
> 
> Having said that, if I lived in the area I would be well pissed off at those about to rock (or throw rocks, petrol bombs and so on)





derf said:


> http://www.ainfos.ca/A-Infos/ainfos38543.html
> 
> http://shiftshapers.gnn.tv/blogs/31244/Anarchists_Plan_City_Riots_for_G20_Leaders_Arrival_in_London
> 
> ...





ajdown said:


> It's only a couple of days, not the end of the world really.  Why not plan a nice little holiday away for a few days, if you're in the affected area, then it won't affect you at all.
> 
> Unfortunately, as usual at these sort of events, there'll be more trouble, disruption and damage from the protesters than the summit itself.



Have you two got nothing better to do with your time?

Do you hate the Chartists, abolitionists and suffragettes?


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## Barking_Mad (Mar 15, 2009)

derf said:


> Given the way that silly fuckers have behaved at past events i would have thought it better to hold such meeting well out of the way.
> 
> Having said that, if I lived in the area I would be well pissed off at those about to rock (or throw rocks, petrol bombs and so on)



*yawn*


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## ajdown (Mar 15, 2009)

yield said:


> Have you two got nothing better to do with your time?



At the moment, no not really.  You?

Why not work towards eliminating this 'class division' that so many people round here seem to want to promote?  We're all human, after all.


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## In Bloom (Mar 15, 2009)

yield said:


> Do you hate the Chartists, abolitionists and suffragettes?


To be fair, they all had a clear idea of what they were trying to do.


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## ajdown (Mar 15, 2009)

In Bloom said:


> To be fair, they all had a clear idea of what they were trying to do.



I think these protesters have a clear idea too.

Seems to be to disrupt people trying to go about their daily business, cost us money, and use violence and intimidation to try and get people to support their 'cause' - once they actually define what it is.  

I always find it amusing how so many people want to 'smash the system' yet happily live off of it.


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## In Bloom (Mar 15, 2009)

ajdown said:


> I think these protesters have a clear idea too.
> 
> Seems to be to disrupt people trying to go about their daily business, cost us money, and use violence and intimidation to try and get people to support their 'cause' - once they actually define what it is.
> 
> I always find it amusing how so many people want to 'smash the system' yet happily live off of it.


What you actually know about summit protesters could comfortably fit on the back of a postage stamp.

I've been on these sorts of protests, and I know the sort of people who go to them, the vast majority have absolutely no interest in disrupting people's daily lives, their aim is to disrupt the summit.  The trouble is that most of them seem to have no clear idea of why they want to disrupt the summit or what that will achieve.


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## ajdown (Mar 15, 2009)

In Bloom said:


> the vast majority have absolutely no interest in disrupting people's daily lives, their aim is to disrupt the summit.  The trouble is that most of them seem to have no clear idea of why they want to disrupt the summit or what that will achieve.



... so how come the only thing they _do_ seem to achieve is disrupting people's daily lives, and the summit goes on without disruption?

I like the ending to your quote, "no clear idea of why they want to disrupt it or what it will achieve" ... that pretty much sums up most protests that you see on the news.  Unfortunately the protests that do achieve something, violence free, never seem to get any media attention because of the subjects they cover.


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## In Bloom (Mar 15, 2009)

ajdown said:


> ... so how come the only thing they _do_ seem to achieve is disrupting people's daily lives, and the summit goes on without disruption?


Because they're a bunch of incompetents who don't really know why they do what they do trying to take on the combined resources of the police and the security services?

I'm not saying summit protests don't disrupt people's daily lives, I'm saying that it's not the aim of the majority of summit hoppers, so much as an unintended consequence of security measures used by the organisers of the summit.


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## ajdown (Mar 15, 2009)

If they're not actually achieveing their aims - not that they seem to have really defined their aims in the first place - perhaps they ought to consider whether what they do is actually in the interests of their chosen cause (whatever it might be).  I guess that going toe-to-toe with the police and throwing things is more 'sexy' than writing reasoned letters to newspapers and giving money to professional organisations working on their side?  Guess the latter isn't going to get your picture in the newspapers.


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## laptop (Mar 15, 2009)

I love the suggestion that the protesters have the power to prolong and deepen the misery of billions of people, on a par with the summiteers.


Not, of course, that any _Hate Mail_ reader would ever equate them feeling a bit miffed with the fate of billions. Oh no.


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## Bernie Gunther (Mar 15, 2009)

I'd see it as an attempt to address deficiencies in democracy, an attempt to communicate dissent. 

Typically any complex system requires some means for signals to reach the control mechanisms. Under neo-liberal capitalism, money and power have been used in what I believe are some very misguided ways (anti-terror laws used against non-violent forms of dissent, political technologies that make elections turn on a few thousand swing voters in a few key marginals) to try to suppress dissenting signals from various segments of society in favour of listening only to signals from elites with large amounts of money and power, i.e. the only people who really benefit from neo-liberal capitalism. 

Since the Seattle protests, which did send strong signals of dissent from many sections of society against the neo-liberal capitalist model echoing through the global media, governments have been frantically trying to prevent anything like that happening again. It's really important to them to preserve the appearance that there is no significant dissent from the neo-liberal status quo in order to eradicate any hope of change. If people got to believing that hundreds of thousands of other people were actively opposed to that status quo, they might join them and make it into millions.


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## laptop (Mar 15, 2009)

Bernie Gunther said:


> Since the Seattle protests, which did send strong signals of dissent from many sections of society against the neo-liberal capitalist model echoing through the global media...



Not only that. They changed the course of the World Trade Organization.

Recall the accounts by delegates from smaller countries looking at the streets and thinking "'ang on... I don't have to vote with the US."

All the more reason for:



Bernie Gunther said:


> ... governments ... frantically trying to prevent anything like that happening again. It's really important to them to preserve the appearance that there is no significant dissent from the neo-liberal status quo in order to eradicate any hope of change.


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## ajdown (Mar 15, 2009)

Bernie Gunther said:


> I'd see it as an attempt to address deficiencies in democracy, an attempt to communicate dissent.
> 
> Typically any complex system requires some means for signals to reach the control mechanisms. Under neo-liberal capitalism, money and power have been used in what I believe are some very misguided ways (anti-terror laws used against non-violent forms of dissent, political technologies that make elections turn on a few thousand swing voters in a few key marginals) to try to suppress dissenting signals from various segments of society in favour of listening only to signals from elites with large amounts of money and power, i.e. the only people who really benefit from neo-liberal capitalism.
> 
> Since the Seattle protests, which did send strong signals of dissent from many sections of society against the neo-liberal capitalist model echoing through the global media, governments have been frantically trying to prevent anything like that happening again. It's really important to them to preserve the appearance that there is no significant dissent from the neo-liberal status quo in order to eradicate any hope of change. If people got to believing that hundreds of thousands of other people were actively opposed to that status quo, they might join them and make it into millions.



Any chance of rewriting that into English?  Thanks.


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## cantsin (Mar 15, 2009)

ajdown said:


> I think these protesters have a clear idea too.
> 
> Seems to be to disrupt people trying to go about their daily business, cost us money, and use violence and intimidation to try and get people to support their 'cause' - once they actually define what it is.
> 
> I always find it amusing how so many people want to 'smash the system' yet happily live off of it.



you're almost as SHIT  as derf, keep at it , you may get there you timewasting cnut


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## Bernie Gunther (Mar 15, 2009)

ajdown said:


> Any chance of rewriting that into English?  Thanks.



It's in English, and I decline to translate it into Halfwit for your convenience.


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## Bernie Gunther (Mar 16, 2009)

That David Harvey article that was posted last night has some relevant things to say about why protesting at the G20 summit might be a good thing to do. 



> What I think is happening at the moment is that they are now looking for a new financial set-up which can solve the problem not for working people but for the capitalist class. I think they are going to find a solution for the capitalist class and if the rest of us get screwed, too bad. The only thing they would care about is if we rose up in revolt. And until we rise up in revolt they are going to redesign the system according to their own class interests. <snip>
> 
> But whatever solution they may arrive at, it will suit them unless we get in there and start saying that we want something that is suitable for us. There's a crucial role for people like us to raise the questions and challenge the legitimacy of the decisions being made at present, and to have very clear analyses of what the nature of the problem has been, and what the possible exits are.



source

Now, I think the phrase 'rise up in revolt' might be a bit over-dramatic here, but it does seem rather clear what the main agenda items at the G20 are likely to be and it does seem all too likely that ordinary people are going to get screwed in favour of elites unless they make their voices heard loudly and in ways that can't be easily ignored.


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## Cobbles (Mar 16, 2009)

Bernie Gunther said:


> I'd see it as an attempt to address deficiencies in democracy, an attempt to communicate dissent.



There's always voting - oh, no, i guess that means having to register and possibly even ending up having to pay Council Tax.....


Surely there's loads of ways of "communicating" dissent that don't involve vandalism or random violence? 

How about putting a petition up on the No. 10 website and seeing how many/few people also support the same dissenting position?


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## bluestreak (Mar 16, 2009)

Perhaps people get into activism when they realise that shit doesn't work?


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## Kaka Tim (Mar 16, 2009)

A large mass of angry people descending on the summit will - at the very least - give the political leaders some pause for thought before they coem up with their latest wheeze to protect the lifestyles of the super rich whilst fucking the rest of us up the arse. 

These cunts have fucked all our futures for the next 20 years by trashing the global economy for their own enrichment.  If people dont take to the streets in rage at that then they will carry on treating us with the same contempt.


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## derf (Mar 16, 2009)

These daft bastards have been on TV over here today with comment from journalists who were coving the various events in various countries.
Lots of footage from behind the protesters lines.
One notable story was from an openly left wing bloke who was trying to put a pro slant on the demo but ended up condemning it as the work a bunch of pillocks.
Seems at each one there is a hard core of total twats out to do as much damage as they can with no real interest in the politics behind it. 
No fucking wonder the cops have to prepare riot tactics with that bunch of silly cunts on the way.


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## derf (Mar 16, 2009)

dp


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## Barking_Mad (Mar 16, 2009)

Cobbles said:


> There's always voting - oh, no, i guess that means having to register and possibly even ending up having to pay Council Tax.....
> 
> 
> Surely there's loads of ways of "communicating" dissent that don't involve vandalism or random violence?
> ...



People have been voting and they haven't been listening.

That's not to say people should endulge in violence, but direct action is a perfectly legitimate tool of protest.


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## Hocus Eye. (Mar 16, 2009)

Cobbles said:


> There's always voting - oh, no, i guess that means having to register and possibly even ending up having to pay Council Tax.....
> 
> 
> Surely there's loads of ways of "communicating" dissent that don't involve vandalism or random violence?
> ...



I think the idea of the Number Ten petitions is to absorb dissenting positions by having them cancel each other out.  It might be useful to the government to alert them to opposition to their policies, but it is of no visible use in furthering the causes stated in the particular petitions.

Voting has little effect in the absence of a choice of alternative policies by the separate but not different parties.  To have any say in the way the country is ruled you have to have money which is power.  Political power is relatively weak faced with financial power and can only be achieved with the sanction of those who have money.  If I was rich I would not vote.  I wouldn't need to.  I would of course support the Tories - all three of their parties - hence no need to vote.


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## TopCat (Mar 16, 2009)

derf said:


> Seems at each one there is a hard core of total twats out to do as much damage as they can with no real interest in the politics behind it.



What about those who have a real and deep understanding of the political background and history and want to cause as much damage as possible?


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## brasicritique (Mar 16, 2009)

I am going to make a positive contribution which will probably be ignored. With the police all at the excel centre they will not be as many in westminister as it is a question of resources. Persoanlly i think at the last minute you should all occupy government offices in white hall of better still the homes of CEOS etc . As it is some of you are going along and the police are waiting. You have made it easy for the police to police these events. You should imo change tactics to stretch police resources not make it this easy for them and reduce your demo to a confinment issue


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## Cobbles (Mar 16, 2009)

Hocus Eye. said:


> Voting has little effect in the absence of a choice of alternative policies by the separate but not different parties.



There's no barriers against setting up a new political party with totally bampot policies - all it needs is support.

Unfortunately the kind of nutters who eschew chucking bottles at the police as a form of political "action" have no support so I presume this their only route to infamy - but never power or influence.


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## butchersapron (Mar 16, 2009)

Do shut up cotch. I'm sure you've sexual harrsement tribunals to prepare for.


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## SpookyFrank (Mar 16, 2009)

> How about putting a petition up on the No. 10 website and seeing how many/few people also support the same dissenting position?



Even if the world and his mum signs a government petition there's still nothing to stop them ignoring it. The same goes for writing to MPs etc. As for voting, show me a candidate/party who supports the dismantling of centralised government and the creation of a sustainable, egalitarian economy based on the satisfaction of needs rather than manufactured desires and I'll be first in line at the polling booth, but voting for any of the people currently on offer would amount to advocating the continuation of a system I despise. I refuse to vote for either the devil or the deep blue sea thank you very much.


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## Bernie Gunther (Mar 16, 2009)

Simple test I often try if I get talking to someone when travelling by train. If you ask them, 'would you vote for a party that was willing to renationalise the railways?' a significant majority of them will say yes, almost anyone you talk to will if the train is fucked up for whatever reason, which they too often are. Significant opposition to the privatisation of our collective assets is there among the general public, with regard to transport, education, health and so on, I've no idea how much but it's clearly non-trivial. Neither electable party is going to do anything but carry on privatising though, so they have no realistic option for expressing this view democratically.  

I'd be quite suprised under the conditions that have prevailed since the late 70's if any party who had a policy of rolling back privatisation or any of the other neo-liberal policies could get a fair shake from the media or the funding required to precisely target the few thousand swing voters in key marginals whose votes actually decide elections. So while those continue to be the conditions, we simply get to vote for two slightly different versions of neo-liberal capitalism and increasingly, people don't see any point in voting as a result. 

Of couse, those conditions *could* change, but meanwhile, the G20 are meeting and are likely to exclude the interests of the general public in favour of elites when forming policy, until the general public gives them some compelling reason to listen.


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## Cobbles (Mar 16, 2009)

SpookyFrank said:


> Even if the world and his mum signs a government petition there's still nothing to stop them ignoring it. The same goes for writing to MPs etc. As for voting, show me a candidate/party who supports the dismantling of centralised government and the creation of a sustainable, egalitarian economy based on the satisfaction of needs rather than manufactured desires and I'll be first in line at the polling booth, but voting for any of the people currently on offer would amount to advocating the continuation of a system I despise. I refuse to vote for either the devil or the deep blue sea thank you very much.



Which means that as you haven't got enough support to set up a political party that would need to hire anything other than a Fiat 500 for its annual meeting, the only way forward is the imposition of a dictatorship.

Who do you prefer, Pol Pot or Mussolini?


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## Cobbles (Mar 16, 2009)

Bernie Gunther said:


> Significant opposition to the privatisation of our collective assets is there among the general public, with regard to transport, education, health and so on,



Is that on the basis of asking people on trains if they'd vote for a party willing to renationalise the railways? - is this test always conducted (a) at the buffet bar, (b) in cattle class or (c) in first class?

I'm sure responses would vary, just as they would if you asked the same question on a BA/BMI/Sleazyjet regional flight.

This clearly explains why NuLabour's so buggered up - they clearly carry out all of their statistical analysis on policy acceptance by asking Mp to have a chat with a couple of folk next to them in first class/business.........


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## Bernie Gunther (Mar 16, 2009)

Sure the rail thing is anecdotal, but polling data tends to confirm significant public opposition to privatisation. 

Given that there are no electable parties opposed to privatisation, that means there are no realistic electoral options for them to express this view. So the public needs to find other ways to get this and similar messages across loudly enough for politicians to actually start paying attention to them and acting on their wishes. Hence demonstrations.



> Voters want the renationalisation of the privatised utilities, including the gas, electricity and water companies, <snip>
> 
> The survey also shows that the overwhelming majority of people believe – by 87% to 9% – it is more important to protect jobs than bail out the banks, and believe politicians of all parties are out of touch. <snip>
> 
> Some 31% strongly supported the renationalisation of electricity, gas, water, the railways and telecommunications industry – while another 36% slightly supported renationalisation. But the over-35s were much more likely to support renationationalisation. Just 12% of 16-24 year-olds strongly supported the idea, whereas 41% of 55-64 year-olds were in favour.



Source



> A public opinion poll shows today (Monday) that the vast majority of the public do not want the government to privatise part of Royal Mail.
> 
> In a phone poll of people across the UK 75 per cent of those questioned disagreed with privatisation, 33 per cent strongly disagreeing, and this rose to 89 per cent when foreign ownership was mentioned, with 58 per cent strongly disagreeing. Only 6 per cent of those polled were in favour of privatisation and this halved to 3 per cent when sale to a foreign company was mentioned.


 source


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## frogwoman (Mar 16, 2009)

fucking hell @ the op. it's looking like something out of the soviet union ffs.


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## frogwoman (Mar 16, 2009)

Cobbles said:


> Which means that as you haven't got enough support to set up a political party that would need to hire anything other than a Fiat 500 for its annual meeting, the only way forward is the imposition of a dictatorship.
> 
> Who do you prefer, Pol Pot or Mussolini?



might as well not do anything then 

*stabs self in heart*


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## FridgeMagnet (Mar 16, 2009)

Cobbles said:


> There's always voting - oh, no, i guess that means having to register and possibly even ending up having to pay Council Tax.....
> 
> 
> Surely there's loads of ways of "communicating" dissent that don't involve vandalism or random violence?
> ...



that'll help


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## frogwoman (Mar 16, 2009)

i'm so angry, i think i might write to my MP.


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## FridgeMagnet (Mar 16, 2009)

Bernie Gunther said:


> Sure the rail thing is anecdotal, but polling data tends to confirm significant public opposition to privatisation.
> 
> Given that there are no electable parties opposed to privatisation, that means there are no realistic electoral options for them to express this view. So the public needs to find other ways to get this and similar messages across loudly enough for politicians to actually start paying attention to them and acting on their wishes. Hence demonstrations.
> 
> ...



I must say that out of everyone ever, I've _never_ met a real person who supports privatisation of utilities. From the old-school Tories to the baby-eaters, everyone hates it.

In fact it's quite a good topic of conversation to put forward if you're having lunch with some relatives who you know you'll end up arguing with and spilling the gravy if they start on about benefits or something.


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## frogwoman (Mar 16, 2009)

I have unfprtunately


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## frogwoman (Mar 16, 2009)

tis true tho, the majority of people hate it.


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## Bernie Gunther (Mar 16, 2009)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I must say that out of everyone ever, I've _never_ met a real person who supports privatisation of utilities. From the old-school Tories to the baby-eaters, everyone hates it.<snip>



Sure, which is why it's rather interesting in this context that we have no realistic electoral options for voting against it.


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## FridgeMagnet (Mar 16, 2009)

Bernie Gunther said:


> Sure, which is why it's rather interesting in this context that we have no realistic electoral options for voting against it.



But we can start an e-petition on the Number 10 website! That's _democracy_.


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Mar 16, 2009)

Should we say a quick hello to any of Her Majs' employees who are paid to read boards like this?

Hi guys!! 

Just remember your taxes are going into the black hole too, your kids will be on the databases and their planet trashed. And your pensions will probably be next to worthless. Just a thought. Back to work now.


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## agricola (Mar 17, 2009)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> Should we say a quick hello to any of Her Majs' employees who are paid to read boards like this?
> 
> Hi guys!!
> 
> Just remember your taxes are going into the black hole too, your kids will be on the databases and their planet trashed. And your pensions will probably be next to worthless. Just a thought. Back to work now.



you forgot "and some of your days off will be cancelled"


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## chainsaw cat (Mar 17, 2009)

derf said:


> Given the way that silly fuckers have behaved at past events i would have thought it better to hold such meeting well out of the way.
> 
> Having said that, if I lived in the area I would be well pissed off at those about to rock (or throw rocks, petrol bombs and so on)



I applaud your versatility.

My mistake was to call you a one-trick pony for being boring in your trolling on drugs.

I see you can apply similar techniques to other topics.

Well done you.


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## chainsaw cat (Mar 17, 2009)

FridgeMagnet said:


> *I must say that out of everyone ever, I've never met a real person who supports privatisation of utilities. From the old-school Tories to the baby-eaters, everyone hates it.*In fact it's quite a good topic of conversation to put forward if you're having lunch with some relatives who you know you'll end up arguing with and spilling the gravy if they start on about benefits or something.




Yeah, because they are OURS!

It's like someone coming up to me and saying, hello Chainsaw, can I interest you in buying a tiny share in that rather nice tank top you are wearing?

to which I would naturally respond, Please, someone, desist from the silliness. The tank top is mine already and I own it in its entireity.

Then the someone says ah well, tough shit, I just sold it in millionth shares to some sweaty wheezing public school masturbatory specialists and a bunch of unnerving Russians. And if you even look a bit put out I shall have you cast into a dungeon.


I just can't believe we fell for all that 'if you see Sid....' crap in 1986.


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## Azrael (Mar 17, 2009)

Bernie Gunther said:


> Significant opposition to the privatisation of our collective assets is there among the general public ...


How are the railways part of our "collective assets" when they were built by private companies with privately-raised capital? I doubt most people care who owns and runs them so long as they worked properly. 

As for the G20 summit, my sympathies are with the police for once. These things are guaranteed to attract "protestors" hell-bent on inflicting disorder,  property damage and very possibly violence if they get the chance. The police are caught between a rock and a hard place, and I don't envy them their job. I wonder how many of the "protestors" bother to think about the ordinary lives their actions disrupt. But it's for the greater good, eh!


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## Bakunin (Mar 17, 2009)

Azrael said:


> As for the G20 summit, my sympathies are with the police for once. These things are guaranteed to attract "protestors" hell-bent on inflicting disorder,  property damage and very possibly violence if they get the chance. The police are caught between a rock and a hard place, and I don't envy them their job. I wonder how many of the "protestors" bother to think about the ordinary lives their actions disrupt. But it's for the greater good, eh!



Yes, it IS for the greater good, IMHO. And what's with putting the word 'protesters' in inverted commas? Are you suggesting that the folk who are putting a great deal of time, effort and energy into organising around the summit are only there for a tear-up, because I can assure you that isn't the case.

Yes, a certain amount of disruption is inevitable, but what about the disruption caused by having the damn thing here in the first place? It'll be as much a case of plod and security bods making demands that will cause just as much disruption as any protest, if not more.

Your post reads like it came straight out of the Daily Heil or the Evening Substandard. Perhaps you need to make more of an effort to try engaging with the protesters and the causes they represent, rather than simply whining about being a bit late home from work.


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## derf (Mar 17, 2009)

chainsaw cat said:


> I applaud your versatility.
> 
> My mistake was to call you a one-trick pony for being boring in your trolling on drugs.
> 
> ...



Thank you.
But to call me a troll you would have to redefine the word to mean "someone who doesn't follow the pack like a thick cunt".

Drugs, political violence. Both stupid.


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## Bernie Gunther (Mar 17, 2009)

The point of the nationalisation/privatisation stuff above was to demonstrate that there are majority (according to the polling data I quoted above) views, opposed to key aspects of neo-liberal capitalism, that are simply not being represented by any realistically electable (ie neo-liberal capitalist) party. 

In addition, the timescale means that decisions will be made at the G20 with regard to the banking mess which are likely to have significant effects on the lives of ordinary people, with no opportunity for those people to influence their outcome by electoral means and every reason to believe that insofar as these views conflict with neo-liberal capitalist ideology, they'll be ignored unless they are expressed in a way that governments are unable to ignore.

That's why it's important that members of the general public can directly communicate their concerns by showing up en-masse and making them heard and by demonstrating through sheer numbers that a significant proportion of ordinary people don't want more of the same shit that got us into this mess rammed down their throats as a 'solution'.

That's also precisely why the state and the advocates of neo-liberal capitalism are likely to try to represent all protesters as a bunch of violent loonies, and to make every effort to discourage and even intimidate ordinary people into staying away from such demonstrations.


----------



## Jonti (Mar 17, 2009)

derf said:


> Thank you.
> But to call me a troll you would have to redefine the word to mean "someone who doesn't follow the pack like a thick cunt".
> 
> Drugs, political violence. Both stupid.


What is remarkably stupid -- and transparently trollish -- is to attempt to equate beating up people with passing them a spliff.


> "Ooops, sorry derf, didn't mean to batter you. Just meant to offer you a spliff. Silly me!"



It's obvious you're getting some perverse kicks here by posing as a divvy, finger-wagging troll.


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## Kaka Tim (Mar 17, 2009)

Twats like derf and Azreal would have had a go at  the people who tore down the berlin wall for commiting property damage. 

Over the past week, people in Pakistan people took to the streets in big angry mobs, fought with the police and casued the government to cave in on its house arrest of oppostion leaders and sacking of top judges - 

HOOLIGANS!  Think of the disruption and traffic chaos that casued!


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## Bakunin (Mar 17, 2009)

Kaka Tim said:


> Twats like derf and Azreal would have had a go at  the people who tore down the berlin wall for commiting property damage.
> 
> Over the past week, people in Pakistan people took to the streets in big angry mobs, fought with the police and casued the government to cave in on its house arrest of oppostion leaders and sacking of top judges -
> 
> HOOLIGANS!  Think of the disruption and traffic chaos that casued!



I bet the Normandy landings were aggravated trespass as well.


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## derf (Mar 17, 2009)

Kaka Tim said:


> Twats like derf and Azreal would have had a go at  the people who tore down the berlin wall for commiting property damage.



Anti communist protests. Loved it.
Showed the world that the commie system is a load of old crud.


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## derf (Mar 17, 2009)

Bakunin said:


> I bet the Normandy landings were aggravated trespass as well.



Anti Nazi. I think I'm clear on what I think about the extreme right.

Try again


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## Azrael (Mar 17, 2009)

Bakunin said:


> Yes, it IS for the greater good, IMHO. And what's with putting the word 'protesters' in inverted commas? Are you suggesting that the folk who are putting a great deal of time, effort and energy into organising around the summit are only there for a tear-up, because I can assure you that isn't the case.


Not at all: I put "protestors" in inverted commas to seperate those who _are_ there for a tear up from those who want to protest peacefully.


Kaka Tim said:


> Twats like derf and Azreal would have had a go at  the people who tore down the berlin wall for commiting property damage.


Different rules apply to law-governed democracies and dictatorships. I've argued for a right of armed resistance to tyrannies on Urban before, so you'll have to find someone else to ticket the wall smashers.


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## Bakunin (Mar 18, 2009)

More scaremongering in The Times can be found here:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article5927699.ece

This can be interpreted possibly in three different ways IMHO.

One is that the powers that be and the mainstream press are doing their usual smear job against activists of all stripes, and particular examples would be the Daily Heil and the Evening Substandard. 

A second would be that, if they can ramp things up so people are expecting more trouble than there actually is, then they can point to the 'success' of the policing and use it as justification for SOCPA and other such repressive legislation.

The third would be that they're actually looking to make things kick off. Then the powers that be can ram through even more repressive legislation under the guise of preserving public order and the mainstream press can do their usual job of deliberately misrepresenting all activists as mindless thugs, hell-bent on a good tear up and nothing else, which would no doubt sell a few papers.


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## Kaka Tim (Mar 18, 2009)

Azrael said:


> Different rules apply to law-governed democracies and dictatorships. I've argued for a right of armed resistance to tyrannies on Urban before, so you'll have to find someone else to ticket the wall smashers.



So governments can treat their citizens anyw ay they want as long as they have a fig leaf of democratic accountability?

BTW - the present government got in on less than 40% of the turnout - and on the votes of less than 30% of the electorate. The other parties offered  different flavours of the same neo-liberal cake. 

Between them our political class have trashed the economy for the enrichment of the super rich - and you say we don't have a right to take to the streets in anger to protest their crimes? 
That we have to wait every five years for the opporutnity to vote for a different bunch of equally corrupt self-serving shisters?

REAL - democracy is where the people have genunine and significent  power and influence over how society is run and directed. That is less the case in this country now than it has been for nearly a centurary.

A majority opposed the Iraq war. A majority opposed the privatisation of the railways and now the post office.  A majority are enraged that the people who fleeceed the global economy are wlaking away with huge bonues rather than being sent to prison. 

Are we supposed to meekly accept that the very same crooks and incompetants resonsible for global economic train wreck should carry on making the descions - and lining the their own pockets?


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## TopCat (Mar 18, 2009)

derf said:


> Thank you.
> But to call me a troll you would have to redefine the word to mean "someone who doesn't follow the pack like a thick cunt".
> 
> Drugs, political violence. Both stupid.



Get stoned and fight the police, sounds like a plan.


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## Cobbles (Mar 18, 2009)

Kaka Tim said:


> A majority opposed the Iraq war.



Evidence?



Kaka Tim said:


> A majority opposed the privatisation of the railways and now the post office.



Evidence?



Kaka Tim said:


> A majority are enraged that the people who fleeceed the global economy are wlaking away with huge bonues rather than being sent to prison.



Evidence?



Kaka Tim said:


> Are we supposed to meekly accept that the very same crooks and incompetants resonsible for global economic train wreck should carry on making the descions - and lining the their own pockets?



We're free to vote-in whichever government we want at the next election.

If enough "Anarchists" can get together the measly deposit, stand for election and win enough seats to form the next government then they can make whatever reforms to the democratic process they wish. History shows us how Hitler managed this in Germany in the 30's so it shows that a radidly potty manifesto can garner enough support to overthrow a Government.

Unfortunately you'd need *a lot* of  popular support to achieve that (e.g. more than just 4/5 folk rambling on drunkenly in the pub about _smashing the machine_ and other anarcho-twaddle) so it ain't about to happen sometime between now and the next Ice Age.


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## Bakunin (Mar 18, 2009)

Cobbles said:


> Evidence?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Erm, do you have the slightest idea of what proper Anarchism is really about, or meant to be about?

If so, perhaps you'd be prepared to debate the many issues that concern Anarchists today and teach me, a comparative newbie in politics next to your good self, obviously, (I've only been an activist since I joined the Anti-Nazi League in the early 1990's, after all) out of your own extensive experience?


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## Cobbles (Mar 18, 2009)

Bakunin said:


> Erm, do you have the slightest idea of what proper Anarchism is really about, or meant to be about?
> 
> If so, perhaps you'd be prepared to debate the many issues that concern Anarchists today and teach me, a comparative newbie in politics next to your good self, obviously, (I've only been an activist since I joined the Anti-Nazi League in the early 1990's, after all) out of your own extensive experience?




just curious to see what evidence existed to support sweeping statements such as "_A majority opposed the Iraq war._"

A majority of what?

(a) Puppies?

(b) Manufacturers of placard handles?

puppies don't have the vote and I guess there's not a lot of placard handle manufacturers either.


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## winjer (Mar 18, 2009)

Cobbles said:


> Unfortunately the kind of nutters who *eschew* chucking bottles at the police as a form of political "action"


_eschew
v.t. To flee from; to shun; to avoid._

Duh.


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## Bakunin (Mar 18, 2009)

Cobbles said:


> just curious to see what evidence existed to support sweeping statements such as "_A majority opposed the Iraq war._"
> 
> A majority of what?
> 
> ...



Did you not notice the 2 million who went through the streets of London? Did you not notice the myriad of other protests around the world? Did you not notice that the controversy over the decision to invade Iraq, illegally and on the basis of an extremely dodgy dossier filled with a mixture of incorrect intelligence information and outright lies? And have you paused to ask yourself why, if the decision to invade Iraq was so lawful, the Government is still refusing to release the minutes of the various Cabinet meetings concerning that decision?

Well?


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## winjer (Mar 18, 2009)

ajdown said:


> It's only a couple of days, not the end of the world really.  Why not plan a nice little holiday away for a few days, if you're in the affected area, then it won't affect you at all.


Perhaps because you might not have that option, living in the poorest part of one of London's poorest boroughs?
(Deprivation indicators of Canning Town South)

Why not stop being a sanctimonious dullard for a few days?


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## Azrael (Mar 18, 2009)

Kaka Tim said:


> Between them our political class have trashed the economy for the enrichment of the super rich - and you say we don't have a right to take to the streets in anger to protest their crimes?


No, as I made clear above, I don't think anyone has a right to cause criminal damage in the process. If you intend to make a peaceful protest then good luck to you.


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## TomPaine (Mar 18, 2009)

Well I really do hope people who wouldn't normally protest, from all walks of life come out on that day and show Brown and gang what the think of them.

I've been reading the newspaper comments on sites and where you would normally expect to see a wall of "Scruffy dreadlock kids should get a job/education/have a bath" style remarks, you are seeing more stuff like (from the Times):



> I see that the smoking ban has been lifted for the G20 politicians and hangers on The "guerilla style raids" will probably only be smokers looking to join them for a cigarette rather than standing outside. It's the usual "one law for us" attitude. Utterly repugnant but we've come to expect no better



I do wonder if the general fucked off attitude of people in Britain will translate into more people protesting who wouldn't normally like the Iraq war.


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## Blagsta (Mar 18, 2009)

Cobbles said:


> If enough "Anarchists" can get together the measly deposit, stand for election and win enough seats to form the next government then they can make whatever reforms to the democratic process they wish.



Doh!


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## Bernie Gunther (Mar 18, 2009)

TomPaine said:


> Well I really do hope people who wouldn't normally protest, from all walks of life come out on that day and show Brown and gang what the think of them.
> 
> <snip>
> 
> I do wonder if the general fucked off attitude of people in Britain will translate into more people protesting who wouldn't normally like the Iraq war.



I think that would be a good thing. The potential is there, for example in the majority of ordinary people who support renationalising public utilities in the polling evidence I linked on the previous page. 

I think it's very much in the interests of the neo-liberal status quo to frame G20 protests as a violent clash between cops and anarchists in order to try to get ordinary people to stay away. Might work this time, but I can see a point coming where it won't work any longer.


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## TomPaine (Mar 18, 2009)

To be honest I think the papers hype some of that crap up so they can sell more. After all pictures of cars on fire and riots and stuff are going to sell more papers then pictures of the president of Mexico waving to people on a balcony.
It's in the interest of the papers for there to be trouble to flog more rags.


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## Bernie Gunther (Mar 18, 2009)

TomPaine said:


> To be honest I think the papers hype some of that crap up so they can sell more. After all pictures of cars on fire and riots and stuff are going to sell more papers then pictures of the president of Mexico waving to people on a balcony.
> It's in the interest of the papers for there to be trouble to flog more rags.


 Sure, but I'd argue there is a convergence of interests there.

It suits the papers, because riots sell better than peaceful protests. It suits the state because ordinary people are less likely to go if they think things are going to get ugly.


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## Raw SslaC (Mar 18, 2009)

Bernie Gunther said:


> Sure, but I'd argue there is a convergence of interests there.
> 
> It suits the papers, because riots sell better than peaceful protests. It suits the state because ordinary people are less likely to go if they think things are going to get ugly.



Therefore the state are shitscared of peaceful demonstrations? Remember Feb 15th.

The state see militant demonstrations as a threat as they have the potential to involve many others.


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## greenman (Mar 18, 2009)

Raw Sslac -
Which of these headlines would scare the state/establishment most?
1/ "Police Arrest violent demonstrators at smaller than expected march"
2/ "Biggest March since Anti-Iraq Protests Demands Leaders Act"
3/ "Mayhem in London, Police criticised for mounted charge on peaceful section of massive march, but blame provocation by minority"
4/  "Smaller than expected march passes off peacefully"

I would say the order they would favour would be 4, 1, 2, 3.
They would like it to be small and unnoticed, hence trying to put off ordinary folk attending.


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## Bernie Gunther (Mar 19, 2009)

What might scare them a bit more ... 

5) Central London is now in flames and Lord Mandleson has been impaled on a scaffolding pole after the government once again ignored the politely expressed dissenting views of 35 million ordinary citizens and told the police to employ violence to scare off the 4 million or so who showed up for the demonstration against mortgaging our grandchildren to bail out a bunch of fucking useless parasite bankers while ordinary people are having their homes reposessed.


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## Bernie Gunther (Mar 19, 2009)

Thing is, first you need to get the 35 million ordinary citizens lined up in coherent opposition.


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## free spirit (Mar 19, 2009)

Bernie Gunther said:


> What might scare them a bit more ...
> 
> 5) Central London is now in flames and Lord Mandleson has been impaled on a scaffolding pole after the government once again ignored the politely expressed dissenting views of 35 million ordinary citizens and told the police to employ violence to scare off the 4 million or so who showed up for the demonstration against mortgaging our grandchildren to bail out a bunch of fucking useless parasite bankers while ordinary people are having their homes reposessed.



you missed your calling as a tabloid headline writer


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## Bernie Gunther (Mar 19, 2009)

Well, I was being a bit satirical, but I had a serious point in there someplace. 

If opinion polls are now showing a majority of the general public in favour of renationalising public utilities, then I think it's reasonable to infer that the potential is there for mass opposition to the neo-liberal status quo as a whole. The likely outcome of the G20 is that they'll try to resolve the banking crisis in favour of the same elites who got us into this mess in the first place, and to do so at the expense of the rest of us. 

A few 'militants' are not going to bother them in the slightest, a bit of crowd control here, a bit of media demonisation there, problem solved. Peacefully but firmly expressed dissent on a massive scale is much more of a concern, because it can snowball into effective political activity, potentially (I know it didn't in relation to the Iraq invasion, but that doesn't mean it can't ever do so) and it's much harder to repress violently without risking scenario 5) above.


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## newbie (Mar 19, 2009)

am I being particularly unobservant or what?  we're a week away from this and I've yet to see any evidence of organising for a protest of 40,000 let alone 4,000,000.  Big demonstrations don't happen without some sort of build-up evident to those us us who aren't part of the activist ghetto.  Public meetings, flyposters, stickers all that stuff.  All I've seen is a couple of threads on here, with links to slightly hysterical news items on page 7 of the Daily Hate, but those threads include predictions that the 28th will be bigger than the poll tax march or feb 15th or something!  are trains and coaches being booked in towns and cities all over the country?


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## greenman (Mar 19, 2009)

newbie said:


> am I being particularly unobservant or what?  we're a week away from this and I've yet to see any evidence of organising for a protest of 40,000 let alone 4,000,000.  Big demonstrations don't happen without some sort of build-up evident to those us us who aren't part of the activist ghetto.  Public meetings, flyposters, stickers all that stuff.  All I've seen is a couple of threads on here, with links to slightly hysterical news items on page 7 of the Daily Hate, but those threads include predictions that the 28th will be bigger than the poll tax march or feb 15th or something!  are trains and coaches being booked in towns and cities all over the country?



Don't know how big it will be, but there _appear _to be more coaches (mostly union organised) going from round here than for most demos since the Iraq one.


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## newbie (Mar 19, 2009)

I'm pleased to hear that.  The website seems to concentrate on twitter and facebook with a sidehelping of ukelele players.


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## winjer (Mar 19, 2009)

newbie said:


> Big demonstrations don't happen without some sort of build-up evident to those us us who aren't part of the activist ghetto.  Public meetings, flyposters, stickers all that stuff.


When were the last significant public meetings on any issue? 2001?


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## greenman (Mar 19, 2009)

Unions are publicising on their front page webpages - here is 
Unison

The GMB

PCS

and the RMT


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## newbie (Mar 19, 2009)

winjer said:


> When were the last significant public meetings on any issue? 2001?



''significant' I don't know but there were loads in the runup to the invasion.   The ones I went to were well attended... That was the last big protest, apart perhaps from the foxhunters, and they held meetings across the country, and put up posters and did graffitti and odd stunts to build for their protest. 

I could speculate that there was a real appetite then, but now, well I dunno, maybe times have changed and all the old fashioned ways don't really matter any more and the modern way to educate agitate organise really is twitter.



It's good the unions are advertising the demo on their websites, and some of them are running coaches.  It's good there's a group using facebook to mobilise.  It's good Put People First have an easy way to link to del.icio.us.


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## Bakunin (Mar 20, 2009)

Here's the latest from the Beeb:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7955057.stm

And here's the latest line in bullshit from the Evening Substandard:

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/stand...+sand-pit+protests+to+block+summit/article.do

And the Daily Heil, as usual, rides the bullshit bandwagon with this:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...0-extra-officers-drafted-tackle-violence.html


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## lopsidedbunny (Mar 21, 2009)

I forgot about facebook and twitters being the medium without sounding hippy  so what has happen to the old flash mob, they still seem to lerk around at train stations etc... they don't seem to get effective tools these days for demos but yet they seem to managed to get around. I'm surprise noone has bothered hooking existing ones up with them to these events.


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## Brother Mouzone (Mar 21, 2009)

Bernie Gunther said:


> If people got to believing that hundreds of thousands of other people were actively opposed to that status quo, they might join them and make it into millions.




Well put.


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## Brother Mouzone (Mar 21, 2009)

Cobbles said:


> There's always voting - oh, no, i guess that means having to register and possibly even ending up having to pay Council Tax.....



Voting, gee I wonder why people haven't thought of that before.

People feel disenfranchised with the electoral process, as it is a two party polyarchy.  Both represent the interest of the business community and this is well known and documented. 



Cobbles said:


> How about putting a petition up on the No. 10 website and seeing how many/few people also support the same dissenting position?



Wow, that'll learn them.  There is a reason why the governments and the police use violence.  Because it's very effective.


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## Brother Mouzone (Mar 21, 2009)

Bakunin said:


> Here's the latest from the Beeb:
> 
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7955057.stm





> He said it was his aim to "facilitate lawful protest" and he revealed plans for a special demonstration pen near the Excel Centre to accommodate a few hundred protesters.



You are free to protest in the pens and cages provided.


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## Bakunin (Mar 21, 2009)

Brother Mouzone said:


> You are free to protest in the pens and cages provided.



A method of protest used in the Army (I don't know if it still is) was once for enlisted men to make sheep noises en masse. The message to higher ranks is:

'If we are to be treated like sheep, then we'll act like sheep.'

That might make for an effective form of protest from within a pen or cage at the G20, IMHO.


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## AnnO'Neemus (Mar 21, 2009)

Quote: said:
			
		

> He said it was his aim to "facilitate lawful protest" and he revealed plans for a special demonstration pen near the Excel Centre to accommodate a few hundred protesters.





Brother Mouzone said:


> You are free to protest in the pens and cages provided.


When China pulled that stunt during the Olympics, having special areas set aside for protests, they were mocked, and people in Western countries, including the UK, condemned restrictions on the 'right' to protest.


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## Brother Mouzone (Mar 21, 2009)

AnnO'Neemus said:


> When China pulled that stunt during the Olympics, having special areas set aside for protests, they were mocked, and people in Western countries, including the UK, condemned restrictions on the 'right' to protest.



Nail meet head.


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## Bakunin (Mar 21, 2009)

When I get up to London next Saturday I may well suggest my earlier sheep idea to anyone if they're interested.

Imagine just how much noise a few hundred people could make, all bellowing out 'Baaaaaaaaaaaaa!' at the same time. Possibly while wearing sheep masks or something.


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## Cobbles (Mar 21, 2009)

Brother Mouzone said:


> Voting, gee I wonder why people haven't thought of that before.
> 
> People feel disenfranchised with the electoral process, as it is a two party polyarchy.  Both represent the interest of the business community and this is well known and documented.



So - start a third (or fourth or  _nth_ party) - oops sorry, I keep forgetting - you actually need some support for that.


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## greenman (Mar 21, 2009)

Cobbles said:


> So - start a third (or fourth or  _nth_ party) - oops sorry, I keep forgetting - you actually need some support for that.



Yes, support from corporations or corporatist trade unions, or a combination of both usually.

How would you suggest that we go about winning over the rich and powerful elites and the fat bureaucrats to a programme that would eliminate their power and wealth and ensure real democracy in every institution and workplace?


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## frogwoman (Mar 21, 2009)

i think this has the potential for serious violence...i'd ask everyone going to be going to be careful ...


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## TopCat (Mar 22, 2009)

We now have a tank! It says so in the Observer so it must be true....


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## FridgeMagnet (Mar 22, 2009)

Well, you'll need one to get over all the sand.


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## spring-peeper (Mar 22, 2009)

Wasn't there a thread about a tank in Brixton a couple of years ago?


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## Bakunin (Mar 22, 2009)

TopCat said:


> We now have a tank! It says so in the Observer so it must be true....



http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2009/mar/22/g20-anti-globalisation-protests

Yep, the Observer is also claiming we intend to block the Blackwall Tunnel and cause bomb scares by deliberately leaving unnatended luggage lying around.

The smear campaign is definitely stepping up and will only get worse over the next few days.


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## cantsin (Mar 22, 2009)

Bernie Gunther said:


> What might scare them a bit more ...
> 
> 5) Central London is now in flames and Lord Mandleson has been impaled on a scaffolding pole after the government once again ignored the politely expressed dissenting views of 35 million ordinary citizens and told the police to employ violence to scare off the 4 million or so who showed up for the demonstration against mortgaging our grandchildren to bail out a bunch of fucking useless parasite bankers while ordinary people are having their homes reposessed.



THATS the one they don't like....


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## the button (Mar 22, 2009)

Bakunin said:


> http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2009/mar/22/g20-anti-globalisation-protests
> 
> Yep, the Observer is also claiming we intend to block the Blackwall Tunnel and cause bomb scares by deliberately leaving unnatended luggage lying around.
> 
> The smear campaign is definitely stepping up and will only get worse over the next few days.



Smear campaigns from the Guardian website? Surely not.


----------



## laptop (Mar 22, 2009)

TopCat said:


> We now have a tank! It says so in the Observer so it must be true....






* cough *



If I remember rightly, this was soon after the cops had penned *a* tank, at which point some people showed up right outside the arms fair saying "ta for sorting parking for our spare tank, this is *the* tank..."


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Mar 22, 2009)

Dunno if anyone mentioned todays Observer hitpiece. pure Central Office / Police briefings. I expect the rest of the media is going with the bait.
There was a picture of a chap in a balaclava and mention of bomb threats


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## Prefade (Mar 23, 2009)

I live in the Royal Docks. Most of the time it is a very pleasant place to live, with plenty of riverside walks, interesting bars, slightly overpriced restaurants and rowing club events available for ones personal entertainment.

Whilst I'm fortunate to live just outside the security cordon, I'm one of the many hundreds of residents who are incredibly, utterly fucked off at the disruption that is about to be visited upon us without our consent or without our consultation. The experiences of past DSEI events have shown that staging exhibitions or conferences requiring huge amounts of security at a venue in the middle of a residential area is an incredibly stupid, shortsighted and frankly bush league step to take.

I've personally no particular axe to grind about the G20 summit or its participants, but I thoroughly respect those who do and will welcome them expressing their democratic right to make their views known in whatever manner they feel is appropriate. I find myself hoping that they do add to the chaos, with roads blocked, trains disrupted, the odd policeman falling into the dock and public order arrests galore. The more chaos there is, the more grounds we local residents have for sanctions against the local politicians who sat on their hands and allowed this event to even be contemplated on our doorsteps.

Frankly I'm so livid, if someone phoned in a bomb scare and caused the entire area to be evacuated, I'd be the one standing on the edge of the security cordon applauding.


----------



## winjer (Mar 23, 2009)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> Dunno if anyone mentioned todays Observer hitpiece. pure Central Office / Police briefings.


Sorry to encroach on your leadlined cavern of NWO paranoia, but that's no 'hitpiece', it's simply the result of the more wild-eyed meetings being happy to have journalists sit in while people make random suggestions like "Why don't we shower the banks with flowers from hot air balloons?"


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## Bristly Pioneer (Mar 23, 2009)

and then it seems inviting the same journalists back to the next meetings so that they can lap up some more hair brained ideas.


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## Bakunin (Mar 23, 2009)

And here's the latest from the Evening Substandard:

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/stand...tests+using+shields+and+truncheons/article.do


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## winjer (Mar 23, 2009)

They seem unsure what the alleged plot is: "block riot police" or "make it difficult for police to break up groups" or "smash through police lines"?

And truncheons, WTF?


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Mar 23, 2009)

Bakunin said:


> And here's the latest from the Evening Substandard:
> 
> http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/stand...tests+using+shields+and+truncheons/article.do


I doubt whether they anticipated the kinds of responses they're getting to that story tbh:

_Something needs to happen because we are being taken for a ride by our dishonest and bent politicians. Nulabour have trashed this country and continue with their destruction and elimination of anything english. *I don't support violence, but please remember that if it does errupt, it is being caused by the ineptitude and undemocratic behaviour of our leaders*. There is only so much human beings can take before they feel the neccessity to react._


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## Kaka Tim (Mar 23, 2009)

Jeez - its all a retread of the build up to mayday 2001. The articles are exaclty the same with jsut the dates changed. This lugnhi fella 'masterminded' that non-event as well apparently. 
Fucking hacks publish this knowing its utter bullshit.
The idea is clearly to scare people off.


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## TopCat (Mar 23, 2009)

I have not got my truncheon yet, nor my shield and steel shoe capped boots. When are they being handed out? At that meeting on the 29th?


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## grubby local (Mar 23, 2009)

samuri swords anyone?
gx


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## Fruitloop (Mar 23, 2009)

So what _are _our tactics?


----------



## Fruitloop (Mar 23, 2009)

Paulie Tandoori said:


> I doubt whether they anticipated the kinds of responses they're getting to that story tbh:
> 
> _Something needs to happen because we are being taken for a ride by our dishonest and bent politicians. Nulabour have trashed this country and continue with their destruction and elimination of anything english. *I don't support violence, but please remember that if it does errupt, it is being caused by the ineptitude and undemocratic behaviour of our leaders*. There is only so much human beings can take before they feel the neccessity to react._



That's what they're worried about really I think. The level of agrement between left and right about these issues on some of the manistream media message-boards is simply unprecedented.


----------



## TopCat (Mar 23, 2009)

Fruitloop said:


> So what _are _our tactics?



Avoid getting kettled at the four main meet up points. March on the bank of England with lots of carnivalisque types in face paint and with paper mache horses and that. Recieve baton charges from hyped up City Police. Join in escalating attempts at self defence. Go home. 

Meanwhile lots of other people will be invading banks and barricading themselves in for the duration plus other stuff.


----------



## Balbi (Mar 23, 2009)

You going on Saturday then TC?


----------



## TopCat (Mar 23, 2009)

Yeah i'm in.


----------



## Bakunin (Mar 23, 2009)

TopCat said:


> Yeah i'm in.



So am I, and quite a few others it seems:

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/stand...climate+camp+could+triple+to+3,000/article.do


----------



## Idris2002 (Mar 23, 2009)

> Chris Knight, of the leading protest group Government of the Dead, warned: "The revolution is coming. This is our time, and I honestly believe that the army, the police, will be so intent on keeping the ExCeL centre they will lose the City of London."



Is this my man Chris Knight, author of _Blood Relations: Menstruation and the Origins of Culture_? Because that would be so cool.


----------



## Fruitloop (Mar 23, 2009)

TopCat said:


> Avoid getting kettled at the four main meet up points. March on the bank of England with lots of carnivalisque types in face paint and with paper mache horses and that. Recieve baton charges from hyped up City Police. Join in escalating attempts at self defence. Go home.
> 
> Meanwhile lots of other people will be invading banks and barricading themselves in for the duration plus other stuff.



Isn't the critical flaw in that approach that there only need to be about three rather photogenic characterss in 'anarchist' outfits  - who are probably terminally speaking in the employ of Her Majesty -that chuck the odd brick at a few old ladies and kittens and the whole enterprise is rendered
hopelessly counter-productive. Is it not inherently flawed?


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 23, 2009)

Idris2002 said:


> Is this my man Chris Knight, author of _Blood Relations: Menstruation and the Origins of Culture_? Because that would be so cool.



I'm afraid to say that it is.


----------



## Balbi (Mar 24, 2009)

I'm in too, i'll keep an eye out for a fire breathing watusi sized police basher


----------



## newbie (Mar 24, 2009)

Bakunin said:


> So am I, and quite a few others it seems:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Fit get it easy these days, no?  Loads of people join one of the Facebook groups and voluntarily give their photos & full names, plus background and not forgetting detailed contact lists, making it pretty clear that anyone who doesn't has got something to hide. win win


----------



## bluestreak (Mar 24, 2009)

grubby local said:


> samuri swords anyone?
> gx



Yeah, I remember that.  At mayday 01 I was interviewed by the Daily Mail, and the chap asked me why I had a toy light sabre strapped to my back.  I said to him, well, I read in your paper that all the anarchists were going to have samurai swords, but I didn't have one and didn't want to be left out.  He left that exchange out of the interview, funnily enough.


----------



## Garcia Lorca (Mar 24, 2009)

newbie said:


> Fit get it easy these days, no?  Loads of people join one of the Facebook groups and voluntarily give their photos & full names, plus background and not forgetting detailed contact lists, making it pretty clear that anyone who doesn't has got something to hide. win win



the facebook idea of joining groups and showing your intention has always puzzled, its volunteering your information before the protest has even kicked off. do the people not care? not think? or feel that it doesnt matter that they are putting numbers, faces, names across openly.


----------



## newbie (Mar 24, 2009)

puzzles me too, and seems very, very naive, which is why I highlighted it.  there's always been a debate between those who proudly stand up for what they believe and those who mask up to avoid being picked off, but facebook takes defiance to a ridiculous extreme, imo, and in particular exposes friends and contacts in a way I find quite alarming.


----------



## Blagsta (Mar 24, 2009)

newbie said:


> Fit get it easy these days, no?  Loads of people join one of the Facebook groups and voluntarily give their photos & full names, plus background and not forgetting detailed contact lists, making it pretty clear that anyone who doesn't has got something to hide. win win



Not if you set your details to private.  They have a name, that's it.  They've already got my name, so who cares?


----------



## Garcia Lorca (Mar 24, 2009)

Blagsta said:


> Not if you set your details to private.  They have a name, that's it.  They've already got my name, so who cares?




Isnt it part of the agreement when you join facebook that you agree to share your information. Thus making none of the information private at all? It may remain hidden to users looking on a computer screen, but you are volunteering your data foward?

ill gladly be corrected if this is not the case.


edit from the facebook privacy policy...

Facebook may also collect information about you from other sources, such as newspapers, blogs, instant messaging services, and other users of the Facebook service through the operation of the service (e.g., photo tags) in order to provide you with more useful information and a more personalized experience.

By using Facebook, you are consenting to have your personal data transferred to and processed in the United States.

We may use information about you that we collect from other sources, including but not limited to newspapers and Internet sources such as blogs, instant messaging services and other users of Facebook, to supplement your profile. Where such information is used, we generally allow you to specify in your privacy settings that you do not want this to be done or to take other actions that limit the connection of this information to your profile 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

i just would not trust any website that consents to having personal data transferred to and processed in the U.S. 

tho i have no doubts that in my web browsing activity that i do this unknowingly at times, i would like to think that i minimise it. I certainly wouldnt use one of these sites to say "Hello, im planning on direct action next week in london". 
do you not think it volunteers information that can be used by the people you are going to protest against?


----------



## newbie (Mar 24, 2009)

Blagsta said:


> Not if you set your details to private.  They have a name, that's it.  They've already got my name, so who cares?



RIP makes it illegal for facebook, or any other data holder, to tell you if the state demands details of your data.  Once you've posted it it's not yours, it's theirs if they want it.


----------



## Blagsta (Mar 24, 2009)

newbie said:


> RIP makes it illegal for facebook, or any other data holder, to tell you if the state demands details of your data.  Once you've posted it it's not yours, it's theirs if they want it.



In that case, why worry?  They can get my data from other sources.  My phone and email records, for example.


----------



## Blagsta (Mar 24, 2009)

perry1 said:


> Isnt it part of the agreement when you join facebook that you agree to share your information. Thus making none of the information private at all? It may remain hidden to users looking on a computer screen, but you are volunteering your data foward?
> 
> ill gladly be corrected if this is not the case.
> 
> ...



Best turn off your phones and internet connection then!

Look - yes, privacy is a worry.  But worry about how your mobile phone records are used, your ISP, your Oyster card (if you live in London), your bank details, debit/credit card payments etc.  We all leave a massive data trail,  Facebook is the least of your worries tbh!


----------



## Garcia Lorca (Mar 24, 2009)

it still seems a little puzzling to volunteer information on whos going, a photo of them, the friends they hang around with etc etc etc. it just doesnt seem right to me personally.


----------



## newbie (Mar 24, 2009)

fair play, you're not naive just defiant 

maybe all the thousands of people who've joined Climate Action or G20 Meltdown facebook groups feel the same & I'm just unnaturally paranoid, but to me it help Fit put names to the faces in the demo crowdshots.  Not a problem for those who know in advance that they'll avoid heat-of-the-moment incidents, of course. 

I hope it doesn't come and bite anybody in the arse.


----------



## Hocus Eye. (Mar 24, 2009)

Just suppose thousands of people stayed away from any of the demonstrations as a result of the police commandeering all of the media coverage of the events even before they happened.

Would the police have to stage a demonstration using their own numbers?  They presumably have some plain clothes officers to mingle with the crowd and maybe to act as agents provocateur.  If there was no trouble they would have to instruct those whose turn of duty was later, to turn up in plain clothes as well and so have the riot.

I like the idea of the police carrying out both halves of the demonstration, the riot and the counter measures.  They would have to make it realistic to get away with it though.  This is just a flight of fancy though.


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## SpookyFrank (Mar 24, 2009)

perry1 said:


> it still seems a little puzzling to volunteer information on whos going, a photo of them, the friends they hang around with etc etc etc. it just doesnt seem right to me personally.



Seems weird to me too. Time was people would go to these things with a group of mates they knew they coud trust. Stuff would be organised in face-to-face meetings only. Signing up for a 'let's trash Canary Wharf' facebook group can only be a massive own goal. One lives in hope that there has been a massive concerted effort to load up everyone's facebook profiles with bogus information and red herrings.


----------



## Blagsta (Mar 24, 2009)

SpookyFrank said:


> Seems weird to me too. Time was people would go to these things with a group of mates they knew they coud trust. Stuff would be organised in face-to-face meetings only. *Signing up for a 'let's trash Canary Wharf' facebook group* can only be a massive own goal. One lives in hope that there has been a massive concerted effort to load up everyone's facebook profiles with bogus information and red herrings.



Is that a facebook group?


----------



## free spirit (Mar 24, 2009)

SpookyFrank said:


> Seems weird to me too. Time was people would go to these things with a group of mates they knew they coud trust. Stuff would be organised in face-to-face meetings only. Signing up for a 'let's trash Canary Wharf' facebook group can only be a massive own goal. One lives in hope that there has been a massive concerted effort to load up everyone's facebook profiles with bogus information and red herrings.


there is another major problem with it, namely...

protest organisers relying increasingly on facebook to promote and organise protests and communicate with people who're planning to attend, which means that the only thing the police have to do to majorly disrupt the organisation process, and send out disinformation is to get facebook to close the group and send out a message saying the protest is cancelled.

as soon as the group is closed you loose your contact list - unlike an email list which is virtually impossible to close down.

once you loose control of your membership / supporters contact details and rely on a CIA funded corporate entitiy to provide and retain the membership/supporters list, then you're on a hiding to nothing IMO, letting them set the agenda and giving them the ability to pullthe plug at any point they choose. 

Very naive IMO, unless they've also been getting people to sign up for email lists etc.

also if it does all kick off the person who'se started the event group could well find themselves up for conspiracy to cause a riot charges.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 24, 2009)

We got plenty done back in the glory days before facebook was invented. It's not impossible to organise something on a nationwide level on a purely face-to-face basis, it just takes time and the kind of networks that can only be created using lots of good old-fashioned human contact.

Obviously sometimes you have to use the middle ground and go for email lists and stuff, but these can easily be decentralised.


----------



## TopCat (Mar 24, 2009)

Open organising is still the only way forward. If people huddle though and make some more arrangements then that is fine too.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 24, 2009)

TopCat said:


> Open organising is still the only way forward. If people huddle though and make some more arrangements then that is fine too.



There's a balance to be struck between including as many people as possible and not letting the plod ruin everything before the fun starts. It's perfectly possible, of course, to sort out a mass gathering publically whilst planning individual actions amongst a handful of people. I maintain that everyone going on facebook and handing over details of their contacts, their location and when they'll be turning up is really fucking stupid though.

e2a: Of course the best way to thwart the coppers is to make everything up as you go along. The anarchist hive mind will always be able to think faster than the rigid hierarchy of the police.


----------



## lopsidedbunny (Mar 24, 2009)

Come across this, G20 London Protests + Events List + Locations Map http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2009/03/424939.html  I hope they get the people in numbers they are expecting it was hard enough during the G8 in Glenengle to try and get people to come and that took months of planning. 

Anyway we been getting free advertisement in anycase, and let not forget Red Ken turn coat one May Day for declaring that you will be shot at by rubber bullets etc, etc... even thou' it never been used in this country. I wonder if Tasers make an appearances this year and those mobile fences make an reappearance again. lols that caused a sired..


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 25, 2009)

lopsidedbunny said:


> Come across this, G20 London Protests + Events List + Locations Map http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2009/03/424939.html  I hope they get the people in numbers they are expecting it was hard enough during the G8 in Glenengle to try and get people to come and that took months of planning.



London has better transport links than Gleneagles


----------



## TopCat (Mar 25, 2009)

Hardly anyone I know has any spare beds/floor space next week at all. Loads coming down for this.


----------



## London_Calling (Mar 25, 2009)

Yep, I know people who haven't been out marching for years and years who are angry enough to turn out for this.

Going to be busy on the ferries as well, I believe.


----------



## ohmyliver (Mar 25, 2009)

Which one is the main one though. The 28th, or the 1st?


----------



## laptop (Mar 25, 2009)

Idris2002 said:


> Is this my man Chris Knight, author of _Blood Relations: Menstruation and the Origins of Culture_? Because that would be so cool.



As featured on tonight's Standard billboards:





Meet Mister Mayhem

On Saturday, ahead of the G20 Summit, a London professor plans to ignite a revolution in the City.


----------



## Fuck Bees! (Mar 26, 2009)

OH dear, wasn't he responsible for that clusterfuck at halloween in Canary Wharf? Because he'd been in the papers going 'I AM ORGANISING THIS' the police collared him and told him if anything kicked off he was responsible as the organiser, apparently.


----------



## where to (Mar 26, 2009)

ohmyliver said:


> Which one is the main one though. The 28th, or the 1st?



the 28th is the broad church A to B march to Hyde Park.  TU's, NGO's and left groups are behind this one, and its looking to be a very big march.

the 1st is several affairs rolled into one.  critical mass cycling thing at 9am i believe, a 'climate camp' outside the european carbon trading centre i believe from 12.30pm, and the main event is a march converging on the Bank of England from four different train stations (liverpool st, etc).  this ones being organised by a wide variety of people and groups more like the June 18 1999 demonstration and maydays from the turn of the decade... but within a totally different context today of course.  i was ambivelent about those back then but an angry demonstration on the City of London is the most apt and relevant protest that could be made in the UK right now.


----------



## where to (Mar 26, 2009)

Fuck Bees! said:


> OH dear, wasn't he responsible for that clusterfuck at halloween in Canary Wharf? Because he'd been in the papers going 'I AM ORGANISING THIS' the police collared him and told him if anything kicked off he was responsible as the organiser, apparently.



clearly learn his lesson from that then lol

seriously though i don't think its fair on the rest of those putting blood and sweat into getting these protests going to dwell too much on one renegade media bandit.


----------



## Fuck Bees! (Mar 26, 2009)

yes I agree, kudos for organising something Mr Knight, but I will be making trouble elsewhere on the 1st I think...


----------



## where to (Mar 26, 2009)

Fuck Bees! said:


> yes I agree, kudos for organising something Mr Knight, but I will be making trouble elsewhere on the 1st I think...



not quite what i meant.  what i'm saying is that the 1st is not Mr Knight.


----------



## Bakunin (Mar 26, 2009)

And here's the latest from the Evening Bogstandard, London's 'quality' newspaper:

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/stand...0+rioters,+bank+staff+told+in+City/article.do

And that idiot Knight has managed to tack on a quote about hanging real bankers from lampposts as well as effigies.


----------



## winjer (Mar 26, 2009)

Fuck Bees! said:


> OH dear, wasn't he responsible for that clusterfuck at halloween in Canary Wharf? Because he'd been in the papers going 'I AM ORGANISING THIS' the police collared him and told him if anything kicked off he was responsible as the organiser, apparently.


I believe he volunteered to meet with police and CW security, as he has about Earth Hour. I expect, but don't know, that he has/will negotiate to allow his part of April 1st to go ahead, i.e. Billy Bragg, speeches, street theatre.


----------



## Bakunin (Mar 26, 2009)

winjer said:


> I believe he volunteered to meet with police and CW security, as he has about Earth Hour. I expect, but don't know, that he has/will negotiate to allow his part of April 1st to go ahead, i.e. Billy Bragg, speeches, street theatre.



Which begs the question, if he's willing to negotiate with plod about that, why all the rabble-rousing rhetoric about revolution, forcing folk to turn off lights and the State losing control of the City of London?

I know that what appears in an interview can often be down to editing, and the Evening Bogstandard certainly has form for doing that sort of thing that goes back, at least, to when the Angry Brigade were active, but his rhetoric isn't, IMHO, doing anything to promote a peaceful protest for those who want one and may well put people off going as well.


----------



## asbestos (Mar 26, 2009)

Bakunin said:


> And here's the latest from the Evening Bogstandard, London's 'quality' newspaper:
> 
> http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/stand...0+rioters,+bank+staff+told+in+City/article.do
> 
> And that idiot Knight has managed to tack on a quote about hanging real bankers from lampposts as well as effigies.



Just read through the 'comments' at the end of that, a pox on those privileged hoorays.


----------



## winjer (Mar 26, 2009)

Bakunin said:


> Which begs the question, if he's willing to negotiate with plod about that, why all the rabble-rousing rhetoric about revolution, forcing folk to turn off lights and the State losing control of the City of London?


Pagan positive thinking I imagine, if you say it enough it might happen, same reason Climate Camp is always promising to shut things down.

If you look closer you'll notice he's not rabble-rousing at all, he's goading the police keep it fluffy and companies to turn their lights off voluntarily.


----------



## cantsin (Mar 26, 2009)

where to said:


> the 28th is the broad church A to B march to Hyde Park.  TU's, NGO's and left groups are behind this one, and its looking to be a very big march.
> 
> the 1st is several affairs rolled into one.  critical mass cycling thing at 9am i believe, a 'climate camp' outside the european carbon trading centre i believe from 12.30pm, and the main event is a march converging on the Bank of England from four different train stations (liverpool st, etc).  this ones being organised by a wide variety of people and groups more like the June 18 1999 demonstration and maydays from the turn of the decade... but within a totally different context today of course.  i was ambivelent about those back then but an angry demonstration on the City of London is the most apt and relevant protest that could be made in the UK right now.



lol -the demos couldn't really have been more apt and relevant back in 1999 when the the greedy wankers  were actually creating the mess we're in now !


----------



## kenny g (Mar 26, 2009)

Yeh, if only they had listened to my tripped out screams on June 18th 1999


----------



## Bakunin (Mar 26, 2009)

And here's the latest from CNN:

http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/europe/03/26/g20.protests.police.london/


----------



## Bakunin (Mar 26, 2009)

And here's the latest from The Herald, which has plod being very vague but hinting that the policing will be more public order-based rather than counter-terrorism.

It remains to be seen whether or not they're telling the truth on that point.

http://www.theherald.co.uk/news/new...cial_networking_sites_ahead_of_G20_summit.php


----------



## Bakunin (Mar 26, 2009)

And here's an interesting post from Indymedia UK. It seems that BP's Centenary celebrations have already been cancelled as a result of the potential protests around the G20 Summit:

http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2009/03/424675.html?c=on#comments


----------



## where to (Mar 26, 2009)

CK suspended from his job:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7967096.stm


----------



## Bakunin (Mar 26, 2009)

where to said:


> CK suspended from his job:
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7967096.stm



I can't say I'm really surprised by this, to be honest.

He was asking for it, really, coming out with the kind of statements that he was making. I'd be surprised if he doesn't end up with a lot of hassle from plod if things do kick off.


----------



## winjer (Mar 26, 2009)

Bakunin said:


> And here's the latest from CNN:
> http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/europe/03/26/g20.protests.police.london/



_There will be no special laws under which officers can arrest protesters who break the law_ - well that's a relief...

"We will not tolerate any people breaking the law" - except rapists presumably.


----------



## winjer (Mar 26, 2009)

Bakunin said:


> He was asking for it, really, coming out with the kind of statements that he was making. I'd be surprised if he doesn't end up with a lot of hassle from plod if things do kick off.


I think you need to reread what he actually said, it's really little different to the language used by Hartshorn and Broadhurst.


----------



## winjer (Mar 26, 2009)

.


----------



## Bakunin (Mar 26, 2009)

winjer said:


> I think you need to reread what he actually said, it's really little different to the language used by Hartshorn and Broadhurst.



I'll take another look and get back to you if I've got the time.

In the meantime, here's the latest report from The Times on the Climate Camp preparations:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/G20/article5983454.ece

And here's the latest G20 article from the Daily Telegraph:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...-to-London-from-over-2000-G20-protesters.html


----------



## Bakunin (Mar 27, 2009)

Well, some people are certainly expecting some severe trouble. The Royal London Hospital is, according to The Times anyway, on standby to take casualties from the G20 protests:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/G20/article5983380.ece


----------



## winjer (Mar 27, 2009)

There's a lot more anarchists than I thought ;-)

"Sir Fred Goodwin home attack applauded by anarchists"
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/5056499/Sir-Fred-Goodwin-home-attack-applauded-by-anarchists.html


----------



## e19896 (Mar 27, 2009)

> "I'm doing everything possible to make sure that all the anger of the middle classes doesn't turn into violence. That's why we do all this play-acting. We're being nice to the bankers - we're burning them as effigies. Of course we don't want violence. If there's a huge ruck, the press will photograph it, and our vision about a different planet will not get reported."



God you could not make this shit up could you Professor suspended over claims he incited G20 violence If these are the words from Professor of Anthropology Chris Knight then this protest is not about any real concern that the banking crises climate change is haveing on the working class, but about the loss of privalage for the Middle Class.


----------



## winjer (Mar 27, 2009)

e19896 said:


> God you could not make this shit up


You still are.



> If these are the words from Professor of Anthropology Chris Knight then this protest is not about any real concern that the banking crises climate change is haveing on the working class, but about the loss of privalage for the Middle Class.


No, that's not what he said. At all, you middle class twat.


----------



## e19896 (Mar 27, 2009)

winjer said:


> You still are.
> 
> 
> No, that's not what he said. At all, you middle class twat.



"I'm doing everything possible to make sure that all the anger of the middle classes doesn't turn into violence. That's why we do all this play-acting. We're being nice to the bankers - we're burning them as effigies. Of course we don't want violence. If there's a huge ruck, the press will photograph it, and our vision about a different planet will not get reported."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2009/mar/27/g20-protests-lecturer-organiser-suspended

So one is makeing this up? and from what i understood the pointless protest to be about it was Climate Change, The Banking Crises, this what i understand The G20 are here for, there for from what ive read been told on your pointless protest this is what this is about, or could it be just as Chris Knight has said a bunch of  middle classes he says he hopes it doesn't turn into violence, but we all know this is the desire of moust going to this event, or is that another untruth from someone you name as a Middle Class Twat.

underclassrising are as equally concerned, angry and fustrated about the system we live in, as anyone who supports the thoughts of anrchism. we agree the current state of capatism must change, to save both our society and our panet.

But,

What will taking to teh streets in our thousands do at THIS moment in time?

It will mearly cause *(A)* resentment from the wider nation;7.2 million on tax payer money in policing Stop people  (you sate you support) getting to work, who are already struggling to bring in a wage. Likely damage and vandalism to people's property Be immediately stamped as 'anarchist yobs vandalise london'

*(B)* Allow the british government, after they have had (likely some form of confrontation/violence) on the streets, public damage, financial loss (for a country that is allready struggling) to bring in yet more authoritarian protest laws to PROHIBIT such protests in the future (which if they continue down their route) will come.

Ask yourselves; WHAT WILL THIS ACHIEVE?


----------



## winjer (Mar 27, 2009)

e19896 said:


> The G20 are here for, there for from what ive read been told on your pointless protest this is what this is about


My protest? Which one is that?



> or could it be just as Chris Knight has said a bunch of  middle classes he says he hopes it doesn't turn into violence, but we all know this is the desire of moust going to this event, or is that another untruth from someone you name as a Middle Class Twat.


It's just random speculation, since you don't even know who is going, let alone what they desire. He said he wouldn't want middle class anger to be vented at the police, because the police (Supt David Hartshorn) have said the middle class will riot, he may be an idiot, but he's not said what you claim.


----------



## e19896 (Mar 27, 2009)

winjer said:


> My protest? Which one is that?
> 
> 
> It's just random speculation, since you don't even know who is going, let alone what they desire. He said he wouldn't want middle class anger to be vented at the police, because the police (Supt David Hartshorn) have said the middle class will riot, he may be an idiot, but he's not said what you claim.



I do not know who is going, what a crass asumption you hold of myself, from Middle Class Twat to not knowing or understanding the make up of those involved, do you think i just live in some working class utopia? no i live in a working class Dystopia one where the everyday live is fucked over by the over consumption and greed of the middle class, the very people who will be on this protest, in words it is nothing more than an exercise of empire guilt.


----------



## Bakunin (Mar 27, 2009)

And here's a bit more from the Evening Bogstandard:

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/stand...leaned+up+amid+fear+of+G20+rioting/article.do


----------



## TopCat (Mar 27, 2009)

Bakunin said:


> And here's a bit more from the Evening Bogstandard:
> 
> http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/stand...leaned+up+amid+fear+of+G20+rioting/article.do



A bit of harris fencing won't secure those roadworks!!!!


----------



## greenman (Mar 27, 2009)

e19896 said:


> I do not know who is going, what a crass asumption you hold of myself, from Middle Class Twat to not knowing or understanding the make up of those involved, do you think i just live in some working class utopia? no i live in a working class Dystopia one where the *everyday live is fucked over by the over consumption and greed of the middle class, the very people who will be on this protest*, in words it is nothing more than an exercise of empire guilt.



If you believe what you have written there, M, you are on a completely dead end political trajectory, with no real understanding of why society is like it is, (how powerless *most* of us are, regardless of minor differences in eduction or income) or how we might change things, or what are the reasons for your own personal problems.

Your posts just seem to be spewing your bitterness and hatred at the easiest available scapegoat.  (For you, the leftists and anarchists who inhabit the parts of the social and internet space that you seem to regard as _home_ from the frequency of your posting.  What is the point in slagging and alienating most people reading your posts - can't you think of a better use of your time? )  It is not too far different from the fash who blame all their personal and societies problems on immigrants, "Jewish bankers" or a combination of the two.  Meanwhile, the system rolls on, regardless. 
I really think you could do with giving up posting, taking a good look at the real world and your life and deciding to take a more positive attitude - for your own mental health mate, if for nothing else.


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## e19896 (Mar 27, 2009)

greenman said:


> If you believe what you have written there, M, you are on a completely dead end political trajectory, with no real understanding of why society is like it is, (how powerless *most* of us are, regardless of minor differences in eduction or income) or how we might change things, or what are the reasons for your own personal problems.
> 
> Your posts just seem to be spewing your bitterness and hatred at the easiest available scapegoat.  (For you, the leftists and anarchists who inhabit the parts of the social and internet space that you seem to regard as _home_ from the frequency of your posting.  What is the point in slagging and alienating most people reading your posts - can't you think of a better use of your time? )  It is not too far different from the fash who blame all their personal and societies problems on immigrants, "Jewish bankers" or a combination of the two.  Meanwhile, the system rolls on, regardless.
> I really think you could do with giving up posting, taking a good look at the real world and your life and deciding to take a more positive attitude - for your own mental health mate, if for nothing else.



In context you are right, it can be seen as you say, however place it the other way round, and for a moment as why we are here, it has fuck all to with my life, mental health and thanks for the concern but there is no need, one is doing fine, and the reason being I got out of the bullshit of it all in 2005, and been doing fine.

Yes it comes across as you say I would agree, but meet us in person and you find another side to those who are underclassrising, we need to express that anger, and we are all to clear in what misrepresentation is about, just what you have done.

We do indeed have an issue and that is of the Middle Class, not one of ourself we are strong and very much united and no need to go seek any form of help, it would mean going to The Middle Class, and there one of the reasons our class finds itself in the current circumstance, there not and never will be our salvation, or ever trusted with us again:


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## TopCat (Mar 27, 2009)

e19896 said:


> In context you are right, it can be seen as you say, however place it the other way round, and for a moment as why we are here, it has fuck all to with my life, mental health and thanks for the concern but there is no need, one is doing fine, and the reason being I got out of the bullshit of it all in 2005, and been doing fine.
> 
> Yes it comes across as you say I would agree, but meet us in person and you find another side to those who are underclassrising, we need to express that anger, and we are all to clear in what misrepresentation is about, just what you have done.
> 
> We do indeed have an issue and that is of the Middle Class, not one of ourself we are strong and very much united and no need to go seek any form of help, it would mean going to The Middle Class, and there one of the reasons our class finds itself in the current circumstance, there not and never will be our salvation, or ever trusted with us again:




You are strong and united and there are four of you and you are regarded by others in Sheffield as barmy losers.


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## winjer (Mar 27, 2009)

Bakunin said:


> I'll take another look and get back to you if I've got the time.


More 'incitement', or perhaps 'treason':

_Mark Barrett, a professional tour guide, spent last Saturday painting Barack Obama’s election catchphrase “yes we can” on a banner that protesters will carry as they try to occupy London’s financial district April 1. 

[...]

“We want a very English revolution,” he says from a café near his home in north London. “The first English revolution in 1649 was about winning sovereignty for parliament over the king.” Now, protesters are campaigning for sovereignty for everyone._

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601085&sid=a8ymogvlkZQs&refer=europe

_The group insists that its protest outside the Bank of England will involve nothing more violent than dancing, theatre and possibly a little nudity (“for Emperor’s New Clothes metaphorical purposes”). Mark Barrett, their spokesman, introduces himself to The Times, saying: “I’m with the Government of the Dead and New Sovereignty. Our ideas are about nationalising and decentralising — nationalising everything, and decentralising services so everything is local.”

[...] unofficially, Mr Barrett is less certain their camp will remain peaceful. “Revolutionary discipline is not going to happen,” he says. “It would be great for it to be peaceful, a party and fun — and, in terms of taking the public with us — that would make sense.” He adds: “If things are peaceful on the 1st, we will get good press for the 2nd. Then we can ramp it up.”_

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/G20/article5983454.ece


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## e19896 (Mar 27, 2009)

TopCat said:


> You are strong and united and there are four of you and you are regarded by others in Sheffield as barmy losers.



and we know who they are, and was it a moment of self libration when we walked from there shadows of darkness..


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## e19896 (Mar 27, 2009)

winjer said:


> More 'incitement', or perhaps 'treason':
> 
> _Mark Barrett, a professional tour guide, spent last Saturday painting Barack Obama’s election catchphrase “yes we can” on a banner that protesters will carry as they try to occupy London’s financial district April 1.
> 
> ...



Christ there all comeing out the woodwork, is not Mr Barrett the son of a lord, or at least this is what i understand i could be wrong so forgive me if one is..


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## greenman (Mar 27, 2009)

I had never heard of the _government of the dead_ or "New Sovereignty" until recently.  I try not to be paranoid, but it does seem a bit strange that the media have latched onto these particular (tiny) groups.  And then we have their "leaders" making inflammatory statements, and then we find that at least some of the members are linked historically to the RCP (the bulk of whose former leading members are now largely professional contrarian anti-green corporate shills) who were also incurably arty farty uber-revolutionaries given to making outrageous statements (for example on Irish questions) hmmmmm


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## tangentlama (Mar 27, 2009)

ajdown said:


> I think these protesters have a clear idea too.
> 
> Seems to be to disrupt people trying to go about their daily business, cost us money, and use violence and intimidation to try and get people to support their 'cause' - once they actually define what it is.
> 
> I always find it amusing how so many people want to 'smash the system' yet happily live off of it.



Sorry - I'm unclear are you talking about the Government here? 

(And note to police - please learn to spot an ordinary angry citizen, angry at the govt. and who means neither you or the working person any personal harm, from the aggro-idiots who join these things cos they get perverse pleasure from smashing things up and causing bad press for what are serious causes - our planet and it's people are exploited and bled dry by the govt. and big businesses. When the shit really hits the fan, whose side will you be on - big business/govt.  or the people?).


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## Paulie Tandoori (Mar 27, 2009)

the evading standards has gone into total kerrrazzzy mode, headline "flashpoint london", roadmaps to help you find your way, stories of the rubble from the pavement work in parliament sq being cleaned up with much urgency. 

having been in that area a great deal of late, what i actually think they've done is dug trenches 







so that they can protect themselves from the wave upon wave of protestors that are descending on...oh um, the bank of england and the excel centre amongst other places?!


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