# Is Monmouthshire part of Wales?



## RubberBuccaneer (Sep 20, 2004)

Sounds like a wierd question, but I was at a party over the weekend and this woman from Abergavenny swore it's not.

Now driving thro' Gwent you do get the Monmouthshire signs ( like they're ignoring Gwent ). 

You only get this around the Chepstow area not the Blaenau/Tredegar area.

Her main reason was not to be associated with fat Welsh women with flags tied round theit twcas on an international day.

What the fucks that about, try going to Portsmouth ( just an example ) on an England football matvh day and i spect you'll see the same.

I know on old maps that Monmouth is sort of an either or county, but surely history is on our side and the old Welsh counties show cleary that it is in Gwent.

Dr Christmas sort it out


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## Pickman's model (Sep 20, 2004)

which side of offa's dyke is it?


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## guinnessdrinker (Sep 20, 2004)

I beleve it to be on the western side, which would make part of wales.


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## Pickman's model (Sep 20, 2004)

and thus cymric.


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## bendeus (Sep 20, 2004)

It is in Wales, but traditionally has been one of the most Anglicised, wealthy and eastward-leaning of the Welsh counties: Monmouth itself is but minutes from the border, and they consistently return Tories in most elections. I'd imagine that a fair proportion of the population are inmigrants and that a fair proportion more are not exactly keen on being associated with the riff raff of Blaenau Gwent. Nevertheless, they are part of Cymru whether they like it or not


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## Space Girl (Sep 20, 2004)

My mum lives just 3 miles outside Monmouth, she's Welsh and proud of it, it's more Welsh than English where she lives and I think it's getting more 'Welsh' as locals are trying to hold onto their heiritage. and not be so angolsized (sp?)


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## fanta (Sep 20, 2004)

Space Girl said:
			
		

> My mum lives just 3 miles outside Monmouth, she's Welsh and proud of it, it's more Welsh than English where she lives and I think it's getting more 'Welsh' as locals are trying to hold onto their heiritage. and not be so angolsized (sp?)



Good for them I say!

Imagine an area in Britain becoming too 'angolsized'?

Urrrgh! That would be really shit. And if that didn't happen then it might become too Jamaicanised!

Lots of the area I live in is becoming like that. Other parts are becoming too Portugueseised, Latin Americanised, Asianised and Africanised. 

Bloody Hell NO! 

What can we do to stop this sort of thing and remain 'proud'?


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## mwgdrwg (Sep 20, 2004)

fanta said:
			
		

> Good for them I say!
> 
> Imagine an area in Britain becoming too 'angolsized'?
> 
> ...



Terrible innit. All these English people growing up unable to speak English due to the pressure of other languages, or even afford a home in England!


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## bendeus (Sep 20, 2004)

fanta said:
			
		

> Good for them I say!
> 
> Imagine an area in Britain becoming too 'angolsized'?
> 
> ...



You can mock mate but can you clearly lay out your vision of what should be done with small, marginalised cultures on the peripheries of larger, lingusitically dominant ones? It seems from your posts that you find the whole thing oh so amusing, and by implication that attempts to retain/assert a cultural or linguistic identity can go hang. Is this the case, and if so, why?


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## RubberBuccaneer (Sep 20, 2004)

I would like to point out having re-read the thread that i Monmnouthshire is in Wales, but it wasn't always defined as so, and thats what I was asking about ( as well as someone deying their heritage ).

I've been out in Chepstow with my mate ( who lives just over the bridge ) and as you come into Chepstow and do a crawl along the high st, the pubs change from quite twee to quite Welsh, until at the end you're in boozers fit for any Welsh person. complete with the GLC at the bar ( i.e. pichk any 1/2 dozen boys ), a large Welsh flag, plastic seating and a godd free market economy going on.


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## Idaho (Sep 20, 2004)

mwgdrwg said:
			
		

> Terrible innit. All these English people growing up unable to speak English due to the pressure of other languages, or even afford a home in England!



Go and read a BNP leaflet - you'll find such sentiment there. Why are the welsh afforded the luxury of small mindedness?


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## mwgdrwg (Sep 20, 2004)

Idaho said:
			
		

> Go and read a BNP leaflet - you'll find such sentiment there. Why are the welsh afforded the luxury of small mindedness?



1. I was being sarcastic.
2. With your small-mindedness comment you have shown yourself to be exactly that.
3. FUCK OFF.


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## fanta (Sep 20, 2004)

bendeus said:
			
		

> You can mock mate but can you clearly lay out your vision of what should be done with small, marginalised cultures on the peripheries of larger, lingusitically dominant ones? It seems from your posts that you find the whole thing oh so amusing, and by implication that attempts to retain/assert a cultural or linguistic identity can go hang. Is this the case, and if so, why?



Why should anything be done?

As Idaho says in another thread: _'Nothing is eternal and definitions are subject to change. Notions of what and who a Welsh person is in 600 years time are really beyond our power to speculate.'_

If Welsh becomes a dead language then it will be replaced by something else just as vibrant, exciting and more practical. The children of immigrants to Britain since the war will ensure that is the case. Time passes, and language evolves and changes. 

Why is that a bad thing?


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## Idaho (Sep 20, 2004)

mwgdrwg said:
			
		

> 1. I was being sarcastic.
> 2. With your small-mindedness comment you have shown yourself to be exactly that.
> 3. FUCK OFF.



I suppose answering the question is, alas, optional on message boards.


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## mwgdrwg (Sep 20, 2004)

Idaho said:
			
		

> I suppose answering the question is, alas, optional on message boards.



Yes, if the question is merely a cheap insult.


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## fanta (Sep 20, 2004)

mwgdrwg said:
			
		

> Yes, if the question is merely a cheap insult.



It wasn't a cheap insult. 

Yelling 'FUCK OFF' is nearer to that.

Now, why don't you pick up your teddy, put it back in the cot and answer the actual question?


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## mwgdrwg (Sep 20, 2004)

fanta said:
			
		

> It wasn't a cheap insult.
> 
> Yelling 'FUCK OFF' is nearer to that.
> 
> Now, why don't you pick up your teddy, put it back in the cot and answer the actual question?



Yes, FUCK OFF is an insult plain and simple. Well spotted.

Sorry, but your question (..the luxury of small-mindedness) doesn't merit an answer..


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## fanta (Sep 20, 2004)

mwgdrwg said:
			
		

> Yes, FUCK OFF is an insult plain and simple. Well spotted.
> 
> Sorry, but your question (..the luxury of small-mindedness) doesn't merit an answer..



LOL

   

You poor desperate plonker!

It was a reasonable question that of course merits an answer.

However, you haven't got the wit to provide one and like most inarticualte people, you instead lose your temper, huff and puff.

I can feel your embarrassment from here in England!


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## mwgdrwg (Sep 20, 2004)

fanta said:
			
		

> LOL
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I feel embarrassed for you as you cannot tell the difference between a resonable question and a sweeping generalisation.

And trust me, I am being articulate. I'm expressing anger and hatred for anti-welsh comments.


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## bendeus (Sep 20, 2004)

fanta said:
			
		

> Why should anything be done?
> 
> As Idaho says in another thread: _'Nothing is eternal and definitions are subject to change. Notions of what and who a Welsh person is in 600 years time are really beyond our power to speculate.'_
> 
> ...



Hmmm. We've been here before. I'd say that:

a) Languages are historically important, just as buildings or artifacts are. Welsh happens to be particularly important in a European context

b) Monoculture is shite and leads to the McDeadening of creativity, vibrancy and a sense of self in those the monoculture is foisted upon.

c) What you are implying when you state '...just as vibrant when Welsh ceases to be' case is that a state of flux will continue to be extant in terms of the interweaving and dissolution of language. I would dispute that, saying instead that English, which is only one method of thought and expression will continue its inexorable march forward and rather than the vibrancy of a pluralistic, multifaceted society that you envisage you will instead find linguistic and cultural entropy slowly spreading over the globe.

d) Have you paused to think that maybe quite a lot of Welsh peple actually do not want this to happen? Are you suggesting that they should just roll over and take it quiescently?

e) The Welsh do happen to have a historical case for wanting to preserve their linguistic and cultural, and therefore territorial, integrity. We do tend to resent the fact that our very identity has been systematically under attack for centuries, and that where draconian legislation and intimidation has failed Giles and Henriettas' globalisation-powered second homes seem to be cleaning up

f) We are already economically shafted and divided as a result of many years of English economic policy, but at least we're still us. I'd rather be Welsh and poor and divided than see my country subsumed into the nation that ultimately should bear responsibility for getting us into this mess.

g) Following on from the last point, I'd also rather see my country stand as it is than be subsumed by another country that, at best sees us as a quaint irrelevance and at worse as a parochial bunch of backward neo-fascists (see plaintive mewlings of the troll Chrissie on another thread). People like her tend to make us shy away from becoming Western England, too.

h) Finally, would you, Fanta, resist the growing Americanisation of your culture? Would you protest if, as some politicians have suggested, we pulled out of the EU and joined Naafta? Or would you accept it for the vibrant, practical and exciting event that you are suggesting we look upon the omega point of our identity as?


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## fanta (Sep 20, 2004)

mwgdrwg said:
			
		

> I feel embarrassed for you as you cannot tell the difference between a resonable question and a sweeping generalisation.
> 
> And trust me, I am being articulate. I'm expressing anger and hatred for anti-welsh comments.



It _was_ a reasonable question.

First you posted this: *Terrible innit. All these English people growing up unable to speak English due to the pressure of other languages, or even afford a home in England!* 

In reply to which this question was posed: *Go and read a BNP leaflet - you'll find such sentiment there. Why are the welsh afforded the luxury of small mindedness?*

It was no more meant to be a sweeping generalisation of Welsh people than your's was of English people.

And I think you know that perfectly well anyway.

You could accept this and just answer the question, though you'll probably prefer not to.

And tell us who here is being anti-Welsh? Please give some examples or retract that accusation.


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## fanta (Sep 20, 2004)

bendeus said:
			
		

> Hmmm. We've been here before. I'd say that:
> 
> a) Languages are historically important, just as buildings or artifacts are. Welsh happens to be particularly important in a European context
> 
> ...



a) Why?

b) Agreed. But it wouldn't be would it? It would be a varied mixture of many.

c) English won't last for ever though some may think it will in the same way some thought Latin would. Ultimately, all languages are temporary.

d)Yes, I have. No, I'm not Let them learn and speak it. Let anybody who wants to do so. Don't penalize those who do not though. (I'd say the same for English too)

e) You can do this without prejudice and anti-English antipathy though can't you?

f) Wrong. Many people, including ordinary working English people, are poor because of the economic policy of the ruling classes. The ruling classes come from all nations not just one.

g) You sound like you have soe sort of inferiority complex. I have no wish to see england subsume Wales. Stop assuming that all English people are intent on some fiendish plot. It is silly.

h)What do you mean by 'Americanisation'? I'd resist us mimicking their disastrous foreign policy yes! But there is much to admire about America. Think of their music, comedy etc. I have no problems with Americans. Or the Welsh either. Or anyone in fact!


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## mwgdrwg (Sep 20, 2004)

Now read carefully, I'll explain. My comment about the English being unable to speak English was a sarcastic response to your Jamaicanised/Asianised post. I was trying to get across the fact that a huge majority of English poeple of course DO speak English and the English language isn't under threat. Therefore your comparison of immigration in Wales and England was ridiculous. Yet somehow Idaho seemed to think I was being serious and that I had a problem with immigration into England and should join the BNP.

You want evidence of anti-Welsh sentiment...

"Why are the welsh afforded the luxury of small mindedness?"

Not exactly being pro-Welsh there.


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## fanta (Sep 20, 2004)

mwgdrwg said:
			
		

> Now read carefully, I'll explain. My comment about the English being unable to speak English was a sarcastic response to your Jamaicanised/Asianised post. I was trying to get across the fact that a huge majority of English poeple of course DO speak English and the English language isn't under threat. Therefore your comparison of immigration in Wales and England was ridiculous. Yet somehow Idaho seemed to think I was being serious and that I had a problem with immigration into England and should join the BNP.
> 
> You want evidence of anti-Welsh sentiment...
> 
> ...



Now read carefully, I'll explain. Idaho's question was a sarcastic response to _your_ sarcastic response. 

Maybe you just didn't realise that?

Now then, where is this evidence?

Hmmm?


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## bendeus (Sep 20, 2004)

fanta said:
			
		

> a) Why?
> 
> b) Agreed. But it wouldn't be would it? It would be a varied mixture of many.
> 
> ...



a) Because it is one of the oldest surviving languages in Eurpope and one of the last viable Celtic tongues. This surely gives it some historic credibility

b) Can you give me one reason why it wouldn't

c) No, English won't last forever, but it will take out quite a few tongues in its rampage across the globe before it reaches its zenith. In what context do you feel that this is ok?

d) Have I suggested 'penalising' anyone?

e) Yes. Can you answer my point?

f) Right. You view it in the context of class war, I in the context of invasion and a continued legacy of conquest and colonisation. Can you prove my point to be invalid?

g) You have no interest in England subsuming Wales yet you exhort a laissez faire attitude towards what is actually happening here. Your 'hands off' attitude means the same to me as one which actively seeks the diminishment of Wales as an entity, as both will ultimately have the same effect. Don't call me or my attitudes silly and don't assume to know what I feel about a given subject. Let's stay polite.

h) You haven't answered my question


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## mwgdrwg (Sep 20, 2004)

fanta said:
			
		

> Now read carefully, I'll explain. Idaho's question was a sarcastic response to _your_ sarcastic response.
> 
> Maybe you just didn't realise that?
> 
> ...



If it was intended as a joke then of course there is no evidence. Was it a joke Idaho or is this your real view?

In future I promise to use <SARCASM ALERT> tags or something because I certainly don't want to be viewed as a potential BNP member when nothing could be further from the truth.


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## Idaho (Sep 20, 2004)

mwgdrwg said:
			
		

> If it was intended as a joke then of course there is no evidence. Was it a joke Idaho or is this your real view?
> 
> In future I promise to use <SARCASM ALERT> tags or something because I certainly don't want to be viewed as a potential BNP member when nothing could be further from the truth.



It is my view that such sentiments as _England for the English_ and _Wales for the Welsh_ are similarly worthy of contempt. 

Attempting to right past wrongs by way of focussed and deliberate discrimination is counter-productive.

Claiming that I am anti-welsh because I have no time for sentimental and impractical notions of nationhood is ernestian in it's ridiculousness.

(gazes off dreamily, silently bemoaning the fact that no-one bothers to speak Aramaic anymore)


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## bendeus (Sep 20, 2004)

Idaho said:
			
		

> It is my view that such sentiments as _England for the English_ and _Wales for the Welsh_ are similarly worthy of contempt.
> 
> Attempting to right past wrongs by way of focussed and deliberate discrimination is counter-productive.
> 
> ...



You're right in what you've said. Any attempt to assert Welsh nationhood has to be inclusive and embrace all those who live here, no matter where they are from. But it is your assertion, based on your own personal opinion that nationhood is 'sentimental and impractical' that I take issue with. 

Notions of nationhood and identity are personal and individual choices that one makes over the course of one's life. I don't wish to sound trite but your argument mirrors that of an athiest debating with a theist. Just because somebody's faith is, in the eyes of his or her interlocutor sentimental and impractical is meaningless to the believer, who derives considerable succour and strength from that faith.

Similarly, national identity is not something that can be dismissed as anachronistic romanticism when it has meaning and significance in the lives and beliefs of those who adhere to it (I consider myself to be one of these), and I don't think you have the right to simply dismiss it on the basis that you don't feel it yourself.


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## RubberBuccaneer (Sep 20, 2004)

> Similarly, national identity is not something that can be dismissed as anachronistic romanticism when it has meaning and significance in the lives and beliefs of those who adhere to it (I consider myself to be one of these), and I don't think you have the right to simply dismiss it on the basis that you don't feel it yourself.



Well off topic but a point I've always felt, that national identity is not considered so improtant by the dominant people of an area, but is to those in the minority.
To assume otherwise is very dangerous, just look at the Balkans and the post Soviet states, all small nations just wanting a bit of recognition.

BTW I think English will survive and become quite dominant as a business language , simply due to the USA being so dominant.

To anyone else who's still reading don't you think it's sad that languages die out? Think how you'd feel if flemish disappears, wouldn't the world be poorer for it?


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## Dr. Christmas (Sep 20, 2004)

To answer the question (sort of!)

Monmouthshire wasn't officially part of Wales until 1974 and the big local government re-organisation. before that it was neither English nor Welsh, but a sort of weird hinterland between the two. The 'University of wales' was until 1974 'The university of Wales and Monmouthshire'. I believe that Monmouthshire technically remained at war with Germany until 1995 as the Allies (unsurprisingly) forgot to include it in the peace treaty in 1945.

Gwent came into being in 1974 and included Monmouthshire, after a long campaign from Plaid Cymru amongst others (a young Dafydd Wigley was extremely active in that campaign). Much good it did the nationalists though- standing as a Plaid candidate in Monmouthshire remains as close to a suicidal political experience as it's possible to get.

Gwent no longer exists following further late 90s re-organisation, but Monmouthshire remains "officially" Welsh. Older denizens of the ancient county are still a bit chaffed off about that, but ner!


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## kea (Sep 20, 2004)

Dr. Christmas said:
			
		

> I believe that Monmouthshire technically remained at war with Germany until 1995 as the Allies (unsurprisingly) forgot to include it in the peace treaty in 1945.




is this true?   
(and what did they do to reach peace terms in 95?!)


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## Dr. Christmas (Sep 20, 2004)

kea said:
			
		

> is this true?
> (and what did they do to reach peace terms in 95?!)



I'm not _absolutely_ sure it's true, though i do seem to remember reading something like that at the time. I believe an embarrassing ceremony involving chain wearing council worthies and the ninth under secretary at Germany's welsh legation ensued...

Berwick-on-Tweed, the other 'contested' border area in the yookay, remained technically at war with Russia over the Crimea until pretty recently, too.  I don't think even wargaming enthusiasts had envisaged a scenario where the Northumberland Light Infantry despeately shelled advacing tsarist hordes on the opposite bank of the River Tweed, from the feared redoubt of berwick castle.


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## fanta (Sep 21, 2004)

bendeus said:
			
		

> ...



a) Because it is one of the oldest surviving languages in Eurpope and one of the last viable Celtic tongues. This surely gives it some historic credibility - that may so but it is hardly a reason, in my opinion, to force it to remain alive. - The determination to see Welsh remain in use has more to do with romantic historicism than everyday practicality. Nothing wrong with romantic historicism per se, but let us recognise the real reason.

b) Can you give me one reason why it wouldn't - Because whatever language is spoken in that part of this island now refered to as Wales would be made up of so many diverse tongues from literally around the world. I find that appealing, I'm not saying you have to too!

c) No, English won't last forever, but it will take out quite a few tongues in its rampage across the globe before it reaches its zenith. In what context do you feel that this is ok? - You see, the very fact that you describe English as 'rampaging across the globe' may reveal to the reader what you really think of that language and the English.It is not the fault of English that Welsh is rarely spoken. Nor is it the fault of ordinary English people. Prejudiced antipathy towards the english or Englishness will do your cause no favours whatsoever. Leave it out, i suggest.

d) Have I suggested 'penalising' anyone?- that is the unwritten and clear impication of your position and argument. However, I'm glad to learn that you're not suggesting that?

e) Yes. Can you answer my point? - what was your point exactly? It was a bit muddled, you seemed to be appointing yourself as a spokes-person for all welsh people. Have you been elected to such a post?

f) Right. You view it in the context of class war, I in the context of invasion and a continued legacy of conquest and colonisation. Can you prove my point to be invalid? - what is the difference in how we view it then? Is there any difference? Again your point/s is/are muddled. All the Welsh are shafted because of something you choose to call English Economics! Get real! 

g) You have no interest in England subsuming Wales yet you exhort a laissez faire attitude towards what is actually happening here. Your 'hands off' attitude means the same to me as one which actively seeks the diminishment of Wales as an entity, as both will ultimately have the same effect. Don't call me or my attitudes silly and don't assume to know what I feel about a given subject. Let's stay polite. - Wrong. I express my doubt at the idea that it is absolutely imperative to ensure that minority languages are kept artifically alive, that is all.

h) You haven't answered my question - I have, but I'll do it again if you  want. No, I would not resist Americanisation, but I think that we probably donot agree as to what it is exactly.


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## Dr. Christmas (Sep 21, 2004)

fanta said:
			
		

> I express my doubt at the idea that it is absolutely imperative to ensure that minority languages are kept artifically alive, that is all.



Er, Welsh isn't kept 'artificially alive' which seems to be the basis of your misconception about the language.

400,000 people speak Welsh which is roughly 20% of the population. In the North and in the West it's the primary community language used on a daily basis.

Plus, it's an emotional subject. If people feel their language to be under threat, then also in some way they feel themselves and their communities to be under threat. Reasoned argument can go out of the window in those circumstances.

Perhaps you may be able to explain to us how a desire to speak your mother tongue in your own community is an example of 'small mindedness' or 'anti-Englishness'.


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## fanta (Sep 21, 2004)

Dr. Christmas said:
			
		

> Er, Welsh isn't kept 'artificially alive' which seems to be the basis of your misconception about the language.
> 
> 400,000 people speak Welsh which is roughly 20% of the population. In the North and in the West it's the primary community language used on a daily basis.
> 
> ...



400,000 out of an *island* population of 60 million! There are perhaps more Urdu/Hindi speakers!

I agree with you about how reasoned argument can go out of the window sometimes though!

As for your last sentence, I'm not saying that a desire to speak your mother tongue in your own community is an example of 'small mindedness' or 'anti-Englishness'. I'm saying it would be better if people chose to learn, speak and venerate Welsh without the associated idiotic antipathy towards English speakers and Englishness.


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## Idaho (Sep 21, 2004)

Dr. Christmas said:
			
		

> Perhaps you may be able to explain to us how a desire to speak your mother tongue in your own community is an example of 'small mindedness' or 'anti-Englishness'.



That's the heart of the matter. Of course it's not anti-english. However it is _you_ that perceives it so. You speak of english 'rampaging' and welsh speakers needing 'protection'. It's seige mentality. And one that sees english people and the language they speak as the enemy. 

I hope that welsh finds a way to survive as a language. I also has sympathy for people who are finding it increasingly difficult to operate in their mother tongue. However it's a big bad world out there.

The Romans ruled most of Europe 2000 years ago and now no-one speaks Latin other than historians. Do you seriously believe Welsh can survive?


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## Dr. Christmas (Sep 21, 2004)

Idaho said:
			
		

> 1.That's the heart of the matter. Of course it's not anti-english. However it is _you_ that perceives it so. You speak of english 'rampaging' and welsh speakers needing 'protection'. It's seige mentality. And one that sees english people and the language they speak as the enemy.
> 
> 2.I hope that welsh finds a way to survive as a language. I also has sympathy for people who are finding it increasingly difficult to operate in their mother tongue. However it's a big bad world out there.
> 
> 3.The Romans ruled most of Europe 2000 years ago and now no-one speaks Latin other than historians. Do you seriously believe Welsh can survive?



1. What laughable bollocks. You'll have to refresh my memory of where I've said that English is 'rampaging' in Wales or where I've demanded 'protection' for Welsh speaking communities. otherwise I'll have to assume that once again this speaks more about your own generalising prejudice rather than anything I've said on the subject.

2. "However it's a big bad world out there". A tad patronising, no? Some Welsh speakers (those on the fringes of _Cymuned_ for example) do have obejctionable and prejudiced views of English speakers. Whislt of course I would condemn such attitudes, perhaps people should reflect sometimes on their own attitudes towards minority languages- patronising dismissals like this will entrench divisions rather than repair them.

3. I'm not quite clear as to the relevance of your Roman example, but yes, I do believe welsh will survive. Comfortable. if it was going to die, it would have done so by now, before the 1967 Welsh Language Act- before that Welsh wasn't recognised as an official language at all.


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## Dr. Christmas (Sep 21, 2004)

fanta said:
			
		

> 1.400,000 out of an *island* population of 60 million! There are perhaps more Urdu/Hindi speakers!
> 
> 2.As for your last sentence, I'm not saying that a desire to speak your mother tongue in your own community is an example of 'small mindedness' or 'anti-Englishness'. I'm saying it would be better if people chose to learn, speak and venerate Welsh without the associated idiotic antipathy towards English speakers and Englishness.



1. D'oh! There's 50,000 Gaelic speakers in the Highlands and Islands of Scotland but they don't give much thought to Welsh, and vice-versa. Welsh is one of the national languages of Wales. We're not talking about the UK. 

2. The 'idiotic antipathy' you mention doesn't come from nowhere. Much of it is wrong, but then, as you've conceded, rational argument can go out the window when such an emotive issue is being debated. As I mentioned to idaho, it's a two way thing: for example a Surrey right winger sneering at the language and those who speak it understandably won't go down very well in certain Welsh speaking parts of the country.


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## RubberBuccaneer (Sep 21, 2004)

Thanks Dr C I knew you'd know that



> Gwent no longer exists following further late 90s re-organisation


     They didn't tell me , I just drove thro' it.


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## waterloowelshy (Sep 21, 2004)

Why does nearly every thread have to descend into some kind of childish slanging match? Everyone on here appears to try and show off their intellect and i have no doubt that many of the posters are actually quite intellegent - so why then does everything have to degenerate into a pointless, boring and immature argument?

can't you just argue with each other via your private messages so that you don't bore everybody else that actually wants to read and review messages related to the original topic.

i am so bored of the arguments.


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## Idaho (Sep 21, 2004)

Dr. Christmas said:
			
		

> I'm not quite clear as to the relevance of your Roman example, but yes, I do believe welsh will survive. Comfortable. if it was going to die, it would have done so by now, before the 1967 Welsh Language Act- before that Welsh wasn't recognised as an official language at all.



You have a bit of a numbering thing Doc... heheheh.. 

My point was that even the most powerful and influencial languages disappear eventually. I doubt english will be around in 600 years, never mind welsh.


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## Idaho (Sep 21, 2004)

waterloowelshy said:
			
		

> Why does nearly every thread have to descend into some kind of childish slanging match? Everyone on here appears to try and show off their intellect and i have no doubt that many of the posters are actually quite intellegent - so why then does everything have to degenerate into a pointless, boring and immature argument?
> 
> can't you just argue with each other via your private messages so that you don't bore everybody else that actually wants to read and review messages related to the original topic.
> 
> i am so bored of the arguments.



Heheheh.. me too but it still beats the boring work I am supposed to be doing.


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## Dr. Christmas (Sep 21, 2004)

Idaho said:
			
		

> You have a bit of a numbering thing Doc... heheheh..
> 
> My point was that even the most powerful and influencial languages disappear eventually. I doubt english will be around in 600 years, never mind welsh.



Maybe.

But, by then, mercifully, I'll be dead!


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## Dr. Christmas (Sep 21, 2004)

RubberBuccaneer said:
			
		

> They didn't tell me , I just drove thro' it.



In local govt. terms it no longer exists (the scattered bits of the old Gwent are now in Monmouthshire, Newport Unitary Authority, Torfaen, Blaenau Gwent, & co.)

But yeh, loads of people still talk about 'Newport Gwent' and I guess the name'll be around for a while.


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## RubberBuccaneer (Sep 21, 2004)

> I guess the name'll be around for a while.



What longer than the English language


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## guinnessdrinker (Sep 21, 2004)

fanta said:
			
		

> 400,000 out of an *island* population of 60 million! There are perhaps more Urdu/Hindi speakers!



don't be silly.you know what he is talking about.


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## Karac (Sep 21, 2004)

This Idaho bloke seems really boring.


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## ernestolynch (Sep 21, 2004)

He was bullied in Wales so now he has a chip on his shoulder. Like a man who hates all blacks because he was bullied by one as a kid.


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## fanta (Sep 22, 2004)

Karac said:
			
		

> This Idaho bloke seems really boring.



Well thank _God_ there are at least some refreshing posts we all find fascinatingly engrossing like your sparkling contributions.


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## Idaho (Sep 22, 2004)

Karac said:
			
		

> This Idaho bloke seems really boring.



You don't know the half of it - an empty car pulls up and I get out.

Ernies right though - when I lived in Wales I was bullied - I was forced to run naked through fields of leeks while mobs of hatted welshmen jeered in close harmony.


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## Dr. Christmas (Sep 22, 2004)

The expression of a guest at one of Idaho's dinner parties:


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## Idaho (Sep 22, 2004)

Dinner parties eh doc? Not too many of those round these parts - wouldn't know what to do with the grapefruit spoon old bean - wrong sort of school if you knwo what I mean.


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## Dr. Christmas (Sep 22, 2004)

late convert to the class war are we idaho?


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## Idaho (Sep 22, 2004)

Dr. Christmas said:
			
		

> late convert to the class war are we idaho?



I can't see a belt without punching below it doc. Just thought I'd remind you of that.


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## bendeus (Sep 22, 2004)

Monmouthshire anyone? Monmouthshire next stop. Passengers changing for Hereford, Shrewsbury and other English destinations please alight at Monmouthshire.






nneeeeeeoooowwwww......BOOM!


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## ernestolynch (Sep 22, 2004)

Hereford is Welsh.


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## bendeus (Sep 22, 2004)

ernestolynch said:
			
		

> Hereford is Welsh.



Historically and, until recently, lingustically you're spot on. Sadly though it's definitely on the wrong side of the modern border


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## ernestolynch (Sep 22, 2004)

Borders are there to be violated....


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## bendeus (Sep 22, 2004)

ernestolynch said:
			
		

> Borders are there to be violated....



Annexing Hereford?    

The liberating Welsh free forces would have to bathe the streets in the blood of its populace in order to subdue it. The Herefordians are the most rabid bunch of anti-Welshists I've ever come across.


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## bendeus (Sep 22, 2004)

<oops, derailed again>


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## Belushi (Sep 22, 2004)

ernestolynch said:
			
		

> Hereford is Welsh.



And our true Capital City - Ludlow!


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## Dr. Christmas (Sep 22, 2004)

Idaho said:
			
		

> I can't see a belt without punching below it doc. Just thought I'd remind you of that.



Tedious of you to complain about being labelled a 'British Unionist/Nationalist', then, I'd have thought....


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## bendeus (Sep 22, 2004)

Amazing how a thread on poor, innocuous little Monmouthshire can get more posts (61) than any other since the Cymru forum first set sail, innit?


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## Idaho (Sep 22, 2004)

Dr. Christmas said:
			
		

> Tedious of you to complain about being labelled a 'British Unionist/Nationalist', then, I'd have thought....



We've already established that I'm a tedious character doc - time to move on.

My objection to being called a British Nationalist is that it's a pathetically lazy slur. There are far more insightful and damning accusations you could throw if you took the time.


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## Idaho (Sep 22, 2004)

ernestolynch said:
			
		

> Borders are there to be violated....



Hehehe - there he goes again with the talk of violation. Been at the Mills and Boon bodice rippers again Ern?


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## guinnessdrinker (Sep 22, 2004)

bendeus said:
			
		

> Historically and, until recently, lingustically you're spot on. Sadly though it's definitely on the wrong side of the modern border



out of curosity, when did the linguistic border changed? where was it situated?


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## bendeus (Sep 22, 2004)

guinnessdrinker said:
			
		

> out of curosity, when did the linguistic border changed? where was it situated?



Have a look at this  and this 

from which this is a quote:

*On the grounds of history, ethnology, and language, it is necessary to include likewise certain western parishes in Shropshire, Herefordshire, and Gloucestershire as forming part of the real Wales*, that is to say, of Wales as we are about to define the term. It would seem, in fact, that the only true and comprehensive definition of Wales is as follows: Wales is that territory north of the Bristol Channel which, since the subjection of South Britain by the English, has continuously been peopled by the descendants of its original pre-Germanic inhabitants. *This includes the thirteen whole counties, with certain parishes in the shires of Salop, Hereford, and Gloucester; and in some places the boundary passes east of Offa's Dyke*, the limit made by the victorious King of the Mercians in 779. 

I will try and find a timeline for it but am a bit busy at present


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## Dr. Christmas (Sep 22, 2004)

Idaho said:
			
		

> We've already established that I'm a tedious character doc - time to move on.
> 
> My objection to being called a British Nationalist is that it's a pathetically lazy slur. There are far more insightful and damning accusations you could throw if you took the time.



As are your continual evidence-free assertions that welsh nationalists are all 'middle class', complaining about 'repression', that Wales is a region' etc etc, ones which you continually refuse to back up or withdraw.

Double standards anyone?


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## guinnessdrinker (Sep 22, 2004)

bendeus said:
			
		

> Have a look at this  and this



I have had a brief look at the links and they look rather interesting. I 'll definitely have a deeper and longer look soon. thanks.


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## Idaho (Sep 22, 2004)

Dr. Christmas said:
			
		

> As are your continual evidence-free assertions that welsh nationalists are all 'middle class', complaining about 'repression', that Wales is a region' etc etc, ones which you continually refuse to back up or withdraw.
> 
> Double standards anyone?



I would have to have said that a number of times for it to be 'continual'. As for evidence free - you and Ern are professional middle class Welsh nationalists; that's evidence. As for the other stuff, best to argue the points in situ doc - can get a bit dull dragging up the same arguements out of context.


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## meurig (Sep 22, 2004)

Idaho said:
			
		

> can get a bit dull dragging up the same arguements out of context.



It got a bit dull having the arguments for the first time *in context*.


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## Idaho (Sep 22, 2004)

Yeah you're right. But what can you do about it?


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## Dr. Christmas (Sep 22, 2004)

Idaho said:
			
		

> 1.I would have to have said that a number of times for it to be 'continual'.
> 2. As for evidence free - you and Ern are professional middle class Welsh nationalists; that's evidence.
> 3.As for the other stuff, best to argue the points in situ doc - can get a bit dull dragging up the same arguements out of context.



1. You have.
2. Hardly. Ern is a self identified communist and I no longer live in Wales, nor am I presently active in its political context. Two sympathisers, and no members out of a party membership of roughly ten thousand is pretty pathetic if that's what you're claiming as evidence.
3. This is the first thread where I've bothered to actually seriously challenge your mediocre _Daily Mail_ prejudices on the subject- I now remember why I didn't bother on all the other occasions.

I could ask _why_ Welsh nationalism bothers you so much that you spend a goodly proportion of your time on urban in this forum, on this or related subjects. We all understand you had a crap time when you were living in Wales but loads of us didn't and would rather spend our time in this forum talking about positive and relevant issues. Get over it eh?


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## meurig (Sep 22, 2004)

Well for a start we could all try to agree on some basic common frames of reference that have been part of intelligent discussions on Wales' status for quite some time:

1) Wales = Nation (irrespective of whether it has a seat on the UN)

2) Bigotry = BAD (whether anti-Welsh or anti-English)

3) The likelihood of Welsh speaking people waking up tomorrow and deciding they'll go with the flow and stop speaking Welsh is precisely nil.

And then move on from there. How does that sound?


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## Idaho (Sep 22, 2004)

Dr. Christmas said:
			
		

> I could ask _why_ Welsh nationalism bothers you so much that you spend a goodly proportion of your time on urban in this forum, on this or related subjects. We all understand you had a crap time when you were living in Wales but loads of us didn't and would rather spend our time in this forum talking about positive and relevant issues. Get over it eh?



I came on to this forum because Ernest invited me! Honest!

I've had some excellent times in Wales as it goes. Welsh nationalism _per se_ doesn't bother me, in fact I'm all for it. Just because I challenge a handful of fairly narrow views on the subject doesn't mean that I hold the diametrically opposed view.


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## Idaho (Sep 22, 2004)

meurig said:
			
		

> Well for a start we could all try to agree on some basic common frames of reference that have been part of intelligent discussions on Wales' status for quite some time:
> 
> 1) Wales = Nation (irrespective of whether it has a seat on the UN)


Well that's just it. By brushing over this detail and getting irate when anyone wants to discuss it misses what is perhaps the most interesting feature of the whole independence issue. What is a nation?


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## Dr. Christmas (Sep 22, 2004)

Idaho said:
			
		

> I came on to this forum because Ernest invited me! Honest!
> 
> I've had some excellent times in Wales as it goes. Welsh nationalism _per se_ doesn't bother me, in fact I'm all for it. Just because I challenge a handful of fairly narrow views on the subject doesn't mean that I hold the diametrically opposed view.



I'm not opposed to you debating or indeed even spending 100% of your time on here, at all, if you want to. Your problem is that you seem to perceive what you term 'narrow' views on the subject= the mainstream opinion in Welsh nationalism, which it isn't.


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## meurig (Sep 22, 2004)

Idaho said:
			
		

> Well that's just it. By brushing over this detail and getting irate when anyone wants to discuss it misses what is perhaps the most interesting feature of the whole independence issue. What is a nation?



It's the most interesting feature for you, but in this context the debate is over.

It's moved on. The political debate has moved on for everybody: Plaid, Labour, Liberal or Tory. 

The question now starts from the premise that Wales is a nation, and asks how best to reflect that politically given Wales' economic and cultural position.


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## Dr. Christmas (Sep 22, 2004)

meurig said:
			
		

> It's the most interesting feature for you, but in this context the debate is over.
> 
> It's moved on. The political debate has moved on for everybody: Plaid, Labour, Liberal or Tory.
> 
> The question now starts from the premise that Wales is a nation, and asks how best to reflect that politically given Wales' economic and cultural position.



Hear, hear.


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## bendeus (Sep 22, 2004)

Dr. Christmas said:
			
		

> Hear, hear.



And hear again. On the 'what should the future for Cymru be?' thread as well.


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## Idaho (Sep 22, 2004)

meurig said:
			
		

> It's the most interesting feature for you, but in this context the debate is over.
> 
> It's moved on. The political debate has moved on for everybody: Plaid, Labour, Liberal or Tory.
> 
> The question now starts from the premise that Wales is a nation, and asks how best to reflect that politically given Wales' economic and cultural position.



The standard debates are unremittingly dull usually, and this is no exception. The media and the political establishment rarely debate the right points or examine the world in sufficient detail. I see such an approach appeals to you.


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## meurig (Sep 23, 2004)

Morgan said:
			
		

> The question now starts from the premise that Wales is a nation, and asks how best to reflect that politically given Wales' economic and cultural position.






			
				Idaho said:
			
		

> The standard debates are unremittingly dull usually, and this is no exception.



You're seriously saying that trying to engage with the first question is unremittingly dull? Attempting to work out how to secure the economic, political and cultural future of three million people is dull?

Duller than perpetuating an argument about whether Wales is a region or a nation that ended 40 years ago?


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## Dr. Christmas (Sep 23, 2004)

meurig said:
			
		

> You're seriously saying that trying to engage with the first question is unremittingly dull? Attempting to work out how to secure the economic, political and cultural future of three million people is dull?
> 
> Duller than perpetuating an argument about whether Wales is a region or a nation that ended 40 years ago?



What he said.

If you want to know 'what constitutes a nation', Idaho, I don't think this is the thread to do it...try starting another one in one of the politics forums, or philosophy/theory.

Mind you IIRC the subject of nationhood was done to death in the General Forum in the spring, in relation to Cornwall, the UK, and Walter Mitty's fridge. All these threads (save for the Walter Mitty one) ended with five pages of TeeJay's ramblings. Indeed for a couple of days the general forum was so dominated by fractious and not so serious nation threads, that many regulars were reduced to chewing the carpet with boredom whilst others threatened physical violence against the woebegone poster who next started a 'nation' thread.


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## nwnm (Jul 26, 2006)

Tnn


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