# HTC Income Falls 91% Because Samsung (Not Android) Is Winning



## Kid_Eternity (Jan 7, 2013)

Google now finds itself in a curious place, Android is a success but mainly for one company which could exert a great deal of influence of it's future or even fuck Google if it dumped the OS and went another way. 



> Tim Culpan for Bloomberg on HTC’s most recent quarter:
> 
> Fourth-quarter operating income for the period was NT$600 million ($21 million), compared with the NT$1.11 billion average of 20 analyst estimates compiled by Bloomberg. Net income was NT$1 billion, the Taoyuan, Taiwan-based company said in a statement today. That’s the lowest since 2004 and less than the NT$10.9 billion it posted a year earlier.​
> Not good, But Bloomberg dances around the truly stunning number, Sky News does not:
> ...


 
No wonder Google is hurriedly trying to sell the Nexus brand to all that will buy!


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## editor (Jan 8, 2013)

It's not just Samsung befitting from Android. Asus's profits soared by an almighty 43 percent in the last quarter, boosted massively by their Android sales.
http://www.engadget.com/2012/10/30/asustek-q3-net-profits-up-43-percent/

Seeing as the Galaxy S2/S3 are some of the biggest selling smartphones ever made, I can't see any reason why Samsung would stop making their Android range any time soon either.


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## Fez909 (Jan 8, 2013)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Google now finds itself in a curious place, Android is a success but mainly for one company which could exert a great deal of influence of it's future or even fuck Google if it dumped the OS and went another way.
> 
> 
> 
> No wonder Google is hurriedly trying to sell the Nexus brand to all that will buy!


Are you saying that if the Samsung phones were running another operating system they would still wipe the floor with Apple, as they have been doing?


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## Barking_Mad (Jan 8, 2013)

HTC keep releasing phones and then not supporting them with updates. No surprise.


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## editor (Jan 8, 2013)

I'm curious to know why Android isn't supposedly 'winning' here. Given the platform's vast market share and the huge variety of manufacturers creating excellent devices that run the OS, it sure looks like a runaway success to me.


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## mack (Jan 8, 2013)

HTC's marketing dept, slow after sales support and the decision to lock the boot loaders are the only reasons they are lagging behind Samsung so much, the OneX is a terrific phone.


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## editor (Jan 8, 2013)

HTC sales have plummeted but they still made a net profit of around $133 million in the last quarter.


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## Kid_Eternity (Jan 8, 2013)

Fez909 said:


> Are you saying that if the Samsung phones were running another operating system they would still wipe the floor with Apple, as they have been doing?


 
Yup. The OS isn't as big a deal outside of the gadget geek bubble as they like to believe. Samsung have done a great job of ripping off Apple's marketing and product design, it's that not the software that's won things for them it's that and the price.


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## editor (Jan 8, 2013)

Yes. They 'ripped off' Apple by producing superior devices that look nothing like Apple's products, and that's why Apple have singularly failed to make any of their zillion dodgy legal claims stick anywhere outside of the US.

In fact these days, Apple only seem able to follow the innovation already seen on other platforms like Android (e.g. 7" tablets, larger screen smartphones etc).


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## yield (Jan 8, 2013)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Android is a success but mainly for one company which could exert a great deal of influence of it's future or even fuck Google if it dumped the OS and went another way.
> No wonder Google is hurriedly trying to sell the Nexus brand to all that will buy!


The Nexus 7 made by Asus, the Nexus 4 made by LG and Google own Motorola.

Why are Google in trouble?

Edit to add - HTC also went big on Windows phone.


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## editor (Jan 10, 2013)

How ill-informed was the article linked to in the OP?  







http://bgr.com/2013/01/10/android-tablet-usage-samsung-amazon-287449/


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## fractionMan (Jan 10, 2013)

from that article:



> We all know the “*four horsemen*” of tech: Amazon, Apple, Facebook, and Google. These are the companies that pretty much everyone agrees will shape the foreseeable future of the tech sector
> ...
> But any rational thinker (meaning those outside of Redmond or anyone who hasn’t made a career as a .Net developer) knows that Microsoft simply no longer belongs on that list.




LOL


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## editor (Jan 10, 2013)

fractionMan said:


> from that article:
> 
> LOL


How does the title of the thread read - and the article it was taken from?


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## Crispy (Jan 10, 2013)

Android is winning, but Samsung may be big enough to fork it and fuck over Google in the process.


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## editor (Jan 10, 2013)

Crispy said:


> Android is winning, but Samsung may be big enough to fork it and fuck over Google in the process.


There's lots of winners with Android, although Amazon have seemed the keenest to "fork it over" given their implementation of it on their tablets.


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## Crispy (Jan 10, 2013)

Yeah, Amazon have done with tablets what Samsung could do with phones. If Amazon make a phone, things could get interesting, because they have such good experience in network services. Good enough to compete with Google.


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## editor (Jan 10, 2013)

Crispy said:


> Yeah, Amazon have done with tablets what Samsung could do with phones. If Amazon make a phone, things could get interesting, because they have such good experience in network services. Good enough to compete with Google.


In America, Amazon are very powerful indeed, but globally I think they'd find it much harder to try and take away Google's crown. 

The truth is that Samsung and Google have played a major part in each other's rise to dominance, so I'm not sure what benefits Samsung would get from breaking away from Android or trying to 'do an Amazon' because they don't have the all important content to offer consumers. 

Samsung already have their own popular OS, but all of their flagship products are usually Android based.


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## Fez909 (Jan 10, 2013)

It's worth noting that Google has taken preventative steps against forking in the past few days, so they're obviously worried about it.

edit: link


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## Crispy (Jan 10, 2013)

editor said:


> I'm not sure what benefits Samsung would get from breaking away from Android


Not breaking away from, forking.
Google benefits from Android by collecting all that lovely user data and using it sell adverts, and by taking a 30% cut from the sale of apps. I'm sure Samsung wouldn't mind those benefits for themselves, not to mention a greater degree of control over the platform. I don't think it will happen any time soon, but if Samsung's growth continues as it has been, it becomes easier and easier for it to happen.


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## editor (Jan 10, 2013)

Crispy said:


> Not breaking away from, forking.
> Google benefits from Android by collecting all that lovely user data and using it sell adverts, and by taking a 30% cut from the sale of apps. I'm sure Samsung wouldn't mind those benefits for themselves, not to mention a greater degree of control over the platform. I don't think it will happen any time soon, but if Samsung's growth continues as it has been, it becomes easier and easier for it to happen.


I can see it's possible but I really can't see it happening any time soon. Samsung's strength has always been in creating new technology rather than data mining.


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## ohmyliver (Jan 10, 2013)

I'm really not surprised. Samsung do Android better than HTC.


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## mrs quoad (Jan 11, 2013)

editor said:


> How ill-informed was the article linked to in the OP?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


From that (tablet-specific?) link:


> Ad impressions on the 7-inch Kindle Fire HD grew 322% from November to the end of December, while impressions on the Galaxy Tab 10.1 and Tab 7.7 increased a combined total of 150%. Google’s (GOOG) Nexus 7 and Barnes & Noble’s (BKS) Nook Tablet were the next closest with 70% and 62% growth in December, respectively.


What are ad impressions?

It seems to be presenting data comparing... November and December 2012? Have I misunderstood?

Is that effectively showing that Christmas boosts tablet sales (or 'ad impressions')?

Or is that table meant to be indicating something else?


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## editor (Jan 11, 2013)

mrs quoad said:


> From that (tablet-specific?) link:
> 
> What are ad impressions?


Come on. You know what they are.


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## Caleboran (Jan 11, 2013)

mack said:


> HTC's marketing dept, slow after sales support and the decision to lock the boot loaders are the only reasons they are lagging behind Samsung so much, the OneX is a terrific phone.


 
Yep - HTC's One series of phones are really very nice - much better designed than Samsung. But they then needed to leave them and bring out new models after a year, rather than incremental updates and a whole slew of other phones in the meantime. No-one's speculating about HTC Two phones for 2013 like they are the Galaxy S4 and iPhone 6.


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## editor (Jan 11, 2013)

Caleboran said:


> Yep - HTC's One series of phones are really very nice - much better designed than Samsung. But they then needed to leave them and bring out new models after a year, rather than incremental updates and a whole slew of other phones in the meantime. No-one's speculating about HTC Two phones for 2013 like they are the Galaxy S4 and iPhone 6.


Yep. They seemed to be endlessly release minor updates to their range and I think it confused punters. My girlfriend has a XL Sensation which is really, really fantastic phone, but I think it was swiftly superseded by something else.


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## mrs quoad (Jan 11, 2013)

editor said:


> Come on. You know what they are.


I had no idea whatsoever, though I've just googled.

Why the hell should I know what an ad impression is? 

You didn't explain it, and neither did the chart!


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## mrs quoad (Jan 11, 2013)

So, to clarify my reading of that table: it's identifying that according to 'Datalytics,' there was a substantial rise in 'ad impressions' on these tablets, between November and December 2012.

An ad impression is:




			
				wiki said:
			
		

> An *impression* (in the context of online advertising) is a measure of the number of times an ad is displayed, whether it is clicked on or not.[1] Each time an ad displays it is counted as one impression.[2]


 
So what that chart identifies is that significantly more advertisements were displayed on those tablets / devices in December than in November 2012? December, including Christmas and the run-up to it?

That looks pretty... uninformative... to me.

What am I missing? Serious question.


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## sim667 (Jan 11, 2013)

Fuck Samsung.

Thats my input to the thread over and done with.


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## fractionMan (Jan 11, 2013)

mrs quoad said:


> What am I missing? Serious question.


 
Not much.  They used one stat then pretended it was something different and only used it for a certain type of device.  

In terms of usefulness and/or honesty It's a big pile of turds.


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## editor (Jan 11, 2013)

mrs quoad said:


> I had no idea whatsoever, though I've just googled.
> 
> Why the hell should I know what an ad impression is?
> 
> You didn't explain it, and neither did the chart!


It forms a fairly rough indicator of device usage.

Let me Google that for you: http://support.google.com/adsense/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=44743


> *Ad impressions*
> An ad impression is reported whenever an individual ad is displayed on your website. Different ad formats will display varying numbers of ads; for example, each time a vertical banner appears on your site, you'll see two ad impressions in your reports. In addition, keep in mind that the number of ads in any ad unit may vary depending on whether the ad unit is displaying standard text ads, expanded text ads, or image ads.


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## Fez909 (Jan 11, 2013)

All of this is very tedious.  Does it really matter about who has the most ad impressions?

Samsung make attractive phones with a superior operating system and more people are buying them as a result.  If they change the operating system, they would have to make the new one compatible with Android apps or they'd have some very pissed off customers.  Seeing as Google have now made it so that a fork of Android is in a legal grey area, any new OS would have to be based on Android 4.2 or below, or risk a lengthy court battle.

How much of a task is it going to be to get developers to move away from the largest platform at a time when they are just moving towards it?  And for an unproven OS which is only used by one manufacturer (admittedly, the largest) and doesn't have the support of Google or presumably the Open Handset Alliance partners.  Too big of one, I'd suggest.

HTC have taken a punt on Windows Phone after being the dominant Android manufacturer, and look at the mess they're in now.  LG seem to be on the up.  Samsung will really fuck themselves up by moving off Android, I reckon.


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## editor (Jan 11, 2013)

Fez909 said:


> All of this is very tedious. Does it really matter about who has the most ad impressions?


Indeed. The only general point I was making that Android clearly is "winning" for a whole load of other manufacturers rather than just Samsung, which is what the OP suggests.


Fez909 said:


> How much of a task is it going to be to get developers to move away from the largest platform at a time when they are just moving towards it? And for an unproven OS which is only used by one manufacturer (admittedly, the largest) and doesn't have the support of Google or presumably the Open Handset Alliance partners. Too big of one, I'd suggest.


A lot of manufacturers are clearly still happy to be investing in Android and almost all the big name ones (Asus, Sony, Huawei etc) have shown no inclination to start messing about with forks.


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## Fez909 (Jan 11, 2013)

editor said:


> Indeed. The only general point I was making that Android clearly is "winning" for a whole load of other manufacturers rather than just Samsung, which is what the OP suggests.
> A lot of manufacturers are clearly still happy to be investing in Android and almost all the big name ones (Asus, Sony, Huawei etc) have shown no inclination to start messing about with forks.


 
Yeah, I agree with this. I'm not sure what Kid_Eternity 's point is, except to perhaps validate his consumer choices. Why the need to constantly attack Android on ever flimsier ground? You like Apple, others prefer Android. If you want to talk technical merits of your platform of choice, then that's why most of us are here. It's the _tech_ forum, after all.

I don't know when tech debates changed to being about profits, market share and ad impressions, but I don't like it one bit. Have we all forgotten why we buy technology? Or have the days of technology having merit for usefulness, rather than being a lifestyle choice, now long gone?


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## editor (Jan 11, 2013)

Fez909 said:


> Yeah, I agree with this. I'm not sure what Kid_Eternity 's point is, except to perhaps validate his consumer choices. Why the need to constantly attack Android on ever flimsier ground? You like Apple, others prefer Android. If you want to talk technical merits of your platform of choice, then that's why most of us are here. It's the _tech_ forum, after all.
> 
> I don't know when tech debates changed to being about profits, market share and ad impressions, but I don't like it one bit. Have we all forgotten why we buy technology? Or have the days of technology having merit for usefulness, rather than being a lifestyle choice, now long gone?


I think one of the more depressing moments in recent tech history was when the iPhone was launched and the crowd were enthusiastically cheering and whooping when Steve Jobs starting going on about how everything was patented. Why should anyone - as a consumer - give a shit whether some obscure technical detail of a phone's innards is patented or not? Surely the real issue should be: is the phone any good and does it suit my needs at a price I can afford?


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## Fez909 (Jan 11, 2013)

editor said:


> I think one of the more depressing moments in recent tech history was when the iPhone was launched and the crowd were enthusiastically cheering and whooping when Steve Jobs starting going on about how everything was patented. Why should anyone - as a consumer - give a shit whether some obscure technical detail of a phone's innards is patented or not? Surely the real issue should be: is the phone any good and does it suit my needs at a price I can afford?


 
Yeah, that's a pretty good example of what I'm talking about.

I watched what I think was a TED talk which actually explained this and showed how Apple was different to most other companies (and I think I agree).  It talked about how most companies sell you products by listing the specs and showing what it can do (which is how most geeks used to assess a technology) whereas Apple instead sells you it's gear by showing first that it has the same values as you.  You buy into the company because you like what they represent.  And then they say, "and we like the iPhone".  By that point, you're already onside, because you trust Apple.  Afterall, they have the same values as you.

Then they've combined that with some pretty impressive technology to make an unbeatable combination.  Well, almost unbeatable.

I'll see if I can find the talk if anyone cares, it was really interesting.


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## editor (Jan 22, 2013)

Looks like LG is also winning along with Samsung, Acer, Amazon, Barnes & Noble etc etc if there's much substabce behind this story:



> LG REPORTEDLY OVERTAKES APPLE AS AMERICA’S NO.2 HANDSET MANUFACTURER
> Yonhap News reports that new data from Hong Kong-based Counterpoint Research shows that LG has climbed over Apple(AAPL) to become the second-largest handset vendor in the United States. Counterpoint’s numbers, which include sales of both feature phones and smartphones, show that LG had a 13% market share in the U.S. this past December, while Apple had a 12% share. Both companies still significantly trailed Samsung (005930), however, which dominated the American handset market with a 33% share in December


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## editor (Feb 12, 2013)

Interesting study on user satisfaction with their devices in the US and UK.

Look how highly ranked the HTC One is!







US:








> Mobile research firm OnDevice Research conducted a device satisfaction study by polling 320,000 mobile and tablet users in six countries, including the US, UK, France, Germany, Japan, and Indonesia.
> http://thenextweb.com/mobile/2013/0...on-the-0-motorola-atrix-hd-takes-first-place/


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## UnderAnOpenSky (Feb 12, 2013)

It's a shame. In my view HTC Sense make more "tactile" phones, at least at the high end. When you pick up a nice bit of metal it feels nicer then Samsung plastic. That and I think sense is superior to touch wizz. My Desire HD seems like a quality bit of engineering.

I won't buy one again though as they've dropped removable batteries and memory cards.


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## editor (Feb 12, 2013)

Eme's HTC Sensation XL looks and feels loads nicer than my S2.


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## UnderAnOpenSky (Feb 12, 2013)

editor said:


> Eme's HTC Sensation XL looks and feels loads nicer than my S2.


 
If I was to buy a new phone it would be the S3 for the specs, but it does feel like there is something missing. I know modern plastics are strong and all, but there is something to be said for the feel in your hand.


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## joustmaster (Feb 12, 2013)

editor said:


> Interesting study on user satisfaction with their devices in the US and UK.
> 
> Look how highly ranked the HTC One is!
> 
> ...


Those are some pretty deceptive graphs.


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## editor (Feb 12, 2013)

joustmaster said:


> Those are some pretty deceptive graphs.


In what sense?


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## joustmaster (Feb 12, 2013)

editor said:


> In what sense?


In that a column of size 8 is three times bigger than one of size 8.5


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## editor (Feb 12, 2013)

joustmaster said:


> In that a column of size 8 is three times bigger than one of size 8.5


Err, might that not just be because they're not starting from a baseline of 0?


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## elbows (Feb 12, 2013)

Looking at the slides I see Samsung got a horrible number overall in the US compared to most. As usual I dont place much on these surveys/numbers.


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## FridgeMagnet (Feb 12, 2013)

So everybody got a rating of between 8.23 and 8.57 for... what, again?


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## Fez909 (Feb 12, 2013)

FridgeMagnet said:


> So everybody got a rating of between 8.23 and 8.57 for... what, again?


 
"on a scale of 1 to 10, please rate your satisfaction with the device you are currently using (1 very unsatisfied and 10 very satisfied)."


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## newbie (Feb 12, 2013)

um, the US graph is a repeat of the UK one, including saying 52,000 UK users at the bottom.


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## mauvais (Feb 12, 2013)

editor said:


> Err, might that not just be because they're not starting from a baseline of 0?


Oh, OK.






I did that one with a baseline of 8.3. It can't be long until Apple goes bust now.


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## joustmaster (Feb 12, 2013)

editor said:


> Err, might that not just be because they're not starting from a baseline of 0?


Exactly. 
A tried and tested marketing technique.


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## mrs quoad (Feb 12, 2013)

With differences that size, on samples that large, it *might* be worth running an inferential test / comparison, to ascertain whether or not the difference is meaningful - whether the differences _between _'satisfaction' scores for different phones are bigger / smaller than the differences _within _'satisfaction' scores for individual phones.

On the one hand, those are pretty tiny differences, and on a scale of 1-10 you might expect some pretty weighty standard deviations. On the other hand, that's a very large sample, and if it's been gathered with an even remotely credible methodology, there's a chance that tiny differences might be significant / meaningful. That the scores've clustered so tightly towards a very narrow upper end of the spectrum *might* also give cause to at least think it's worth seeing whether or not the variance / SD is small enough to render the results meaningful.

tbf, I can see that even if it did, it's a lot harder to sell a graph based on Analysis of Variance and _p _values, than it is to sell a graph showing unqualified means with a baseline of 8


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## editor (Feb 12, 2013)

Oh OK. So Apple didn't come top so it must all be absolute bollocks, the differences are negligible, the whole exercise poor marketing' techniques (although I'm not quite sure what's been marketed here), and as such the opinions of the 320,000 people asked can be _completely_ dismissed out of hand.


I think that pretty much sums up the response from certain quarters here.


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## editor (Feb 12, 2013)

newbie said:


> um, the US graph is a repeat of the UK one, including saying 52,000 UK users at the bottom.


Corrected. here's the US graph again.


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## joustmaster (Feb 12, 2013)

editor said:


> Oh OK. So Apple didn't come top so it must all be absolute bollocks, the differences are negligible, the whole exercise poor marketing' techniques (although I'm not quite sure what's been marketed here), and as such the opinions of the 320,000 people asked can be _completely_ dismissed out of hand.
> 
> 
> I think that pretty much sums up the response from certain quarters here.


Don't be a dick.
I am less of an apple fan than even you.
I am just pointing out that that is a stupid graph -showinga 5% difference as something that is 300% larger.


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## mauvais (Feb 12, 2013)

editor said:


> the differences are negligible


Your graphs:


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## Idaho (Feb 12, 2013)

People make essentially illogical choices about what phone to get, and then seek to justify the purchase afterwards. This is a pattern with high cost, and largely unnecessary things. You don't get people ascribing brand values to cans of beans. 

 http://youarenotsosmart.com/2010/05/19/fanboyism-and-brand-loyalty/


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## editor (Feb 12, 2013)

joustmaster said:


> Don't be a dick.
> I am less of an apple fan than even you.
> I am just pointing out that that is a stupid graph -showinga 5% difference as something that is 300% larger.


It's absolutely common practice to display relatively minor differences in results using graphs like this. It's not spin, it's not marketing and it's not 'deceptive'. It's just the clearest way to show the difference.

The point is that Apple has traditionally managed to justify its premium pricing by_ always_ coming top in user satisfaction surveys, often by a substantial margin. For Android handsets to score higher than them - even by relatively small amounts - really is rather noteworthy.

Curiously enough, none of the user satisfaction previously posted here have been challenged in this way. But then they all showed Apple at the top.

For the record: I own none of the phones in any of the top five listings and have no loyalty to any brand (that's why all of my phones have been by different manufacturers in the last four years - Apple, HTC, Google, Palm and Samsung).


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## mwgdrwg (Feb 12, 2013)

Idaho said:


> People make essentially illogical choices about what phone to get, and then seek to justify the purchase afterwards. This is a pattern with high cost, and largely unnecessary things. You don't get people ascribing brand values to cans of beans.
> 
> http://youarenotsosmart.com/2010/05/19/fanboyism-and-brand-loyalty/


 
I agree completely. Went straight to Branston Beans when Heinz ruined their recipe.


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## beesonthewhatnow (Feb 12, 2013)

Idaho said:


> P
> http://youarenotsosmart.com/2010/05/19/fanboyism-and-brand-loyalty/


That's a fantastic site


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## editor (Feb 12, 2013)

Idaho said:


> People make essentially illogical choices about what phone to get, and then seek to justify the purchase afterwards. This is a pattern with high cost, and largely unnecessary things. You don't get people ascribing brand values to cans of beans.
> 
> http://youarenotsosmart.com/2010/05/19/fanboyism-and-brand-loyalty/


Good piece!


> Branding builds on this by giving you the option to create the person you think you are through choosing to align yourself with the mystique of certain products.
> 
> Apple advertising, for instance, doesn’t mention how good their computers are. Instead, they give you examples of the sort of people who purchase those computers. The idea is to encourage you to say, “Yeah, I’m not some stuffy, conservative nerd. I have taste and talent and took art classes in college.”
> 
> ...


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## editor (Feb 12, 2013)

mwgdrwg said:


> I agree completely. Went straight to Branston Beans when Heinz ruined their recipe.


Crosse & Blackwell are the worst. 4 cans for a £1 at Iceland and taste like it. Watery muck. I'm back to Heinz now.

*swerves to get the thread back on topic


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## Wolveryeti (Feb 12, 2013)

I am not touching HTC again after the shitpile that was my Desire. The microphone was incredibly quiet, and it had a bug that periodically meant it would go into speakerphone mode while taking calls. 12 month warranty meant I could do nothing.


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## editor (Feb 12, 2013)

Wolveryeti said:


> I am not touching HTC again after the shitpile that was my Desire. The microphone was incredibly quiet, and it had a bug that periodically meant it would go into speakerphone mode while taking calls. 12 month warranty meant I could do nothing.


The Desire was good at the time but I don't think some were deigned to last much over 12 months (that said, mine is still being used by a family member). My only real problem was the lack of memory.

Phones have come on a long way now though: my gf's Sensation XL never fails to register pangs of envy from me - the screen is a beaut and it's fabulously well built.


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## Idaho (Feb 12, 2013)

My desire is still going. I flashed it with a smaller er... whatsitcalled.. and Ms Idaho is getting another year or two out of it. 

As for beans, my kids say the sainsburys own brand are the best.


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## elbows (Feb 12, 2013)

That branding article was fair enough but it really makes me laugh that those most likely to applaud it are ones who will kid themselves that none of it applies to them. In reality even those of us who can come up with umpteen reasons why we arent slaves to a particular brand, are still affected by the phenomenon to a certain extent, its just a question of what extent and how ready we are to admit it.

The main thing I take issue with in the article is the idea that these are simply luxury products, none of which we need. Some of the devices I own fall into this category, but others are absolutely necessary due to the IT nature of my work. eg an ipad isnt a luxury if you are trying to make a living developing apps for it.

The other problem I have with stretching the 'its all about brand and how we think of ourselves' too far is that although there is plenty of truth in it, there are a range of practical implications from the Operating System choices we make. Before first buying an Apple computer, I mostly hated the few people I knew who had one, odious preening Nathan Barley knobheads. I was driven to try one by the fact that some of the apps I wanted to use only existed on OS X, and at the time I'd been completely driven nuts by a decade of supporting windows machines. Once I had made a switch for practical reasons, then some branding stuff could slowly work its black magic on me. I would also argue that the sorts of people owning Apple kit has broadened, although the core message of their adverts/brand probably hasnt changed very much. Again with the iphone I chose it because there wasnt another really good multi-touch smartphone OS around at the time, and once there was I tried something different, although I admit to not being as satisfied with Android as I hoped I would be. I dont know if I will switch back, I dont like Apples prices, especialy as I am much poorer these days. Windows is better now and most of the apps I am using these days are cross-platform, so its easer for me to switch back. At the moment I'm using both a windows 8 multi-touch desktop and some older apple machines.

Anyways I do not want to be yet another person who simply pretends they are above the branding issues, but I would like to blend this with the other factors, including the importance of OS choices in our lives, especially once we have invested sums of money in apps for our chosen platform, or much time becoming comfortable and experienced with a platform. And we should also acknowledge that Android is a more complicated case because you can avoid having brand loyalty to a particular hardware manufacturer, but still have strong feelings towards the OS and spend time slobbering over Google. If I spend a lot of time moaning about Google its in part because Apple are a great fit for the classic premium branding wankiest, and as such are pretty obvious and easy to hate, whereas the Google & android stuff is a more complex blend of phenomenon.


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## mauvais (Feb 12, 2013)

elbows said:


> That branding article was fair enough but it really makes me laugh that those most likely to applaud it are ones who will kid themselves that none of it applies to them.


I for one am wholly unaffected by advertising.


elbows said:


> In reality even those of us who can come up with umpteen reasons why we arent slaves to a particular brand, are still affected by the phenomenon


BN, BN. Doo doo, do doo-do.


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## editor (Feb 12, 2013)

elbows said:


> That branding article was fair enough but it really makes me laugh that those most likely to applaud it are ones who will kid themselves that none of it applies to them. In reality even those of us who can come up with umpteen reasons why we arent slaves to a particular brand, are still affected by the phenomenon to a certain extent, its just a question of what extent and how ready we are to admit it.


Most people are affected to some degree by advertising, branding and company loyalty - that's why so much money is spent on it - but there's no question that some people are affected a lot, lot, _lot_ more by it, and that's clearly reflected in their buying choices.

But, back to the main point of this thread, it is very interesting that Android phones are now registering such high satisfaction levels and there's four different brands in the top US 5. That's got to be good news for consumers overall.


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## mauvais (Feb 12, 2013)

Oh and my Desire is nearly three. The volume up and down buttons haven't worked for several years but otherwise it works great. You can take it apart as well.


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## Idaho (Feb 12, 2013)

Just because most people make irrational decisions when buying a gadget they don't need, doesn't mean that the gadget is not needed by anyone or that there is never any rational basis for differentiation.


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## mrs quoad (Feb 12, 2013)

Idaho said:


> People make essentially illogical choices about what phone to get, and then seek to justify the purchase afterwards. This is a pattern with high cost, and largely unnecessary things. You don't get people ascribing brand values to cans of beans.
> 
> http://youarenotsosmart.com/2010/05/19/fanboyism-and-brand-loyalty/


I find that interesting; but it seems to mostly apply to initial / first buying decisions (first (high-cost) smartphone, first (high-cost) laptop / desktop / TV, etc). And, moreover, one specific set of responses to initial / first buying decisions. Unless I'm missing something?

How does it justify / explain - e.g. - spending a fuckton on a Windows PC or Android / HTC phone that someone then runs like the blazes to get away from? The same could obv be said of a fuck-awful experience with (e.g.) an iPhone.

I kinda tried Apple products as an option of last resort, IYSWIM. And'm now wary of going back to things I've previously tried, because IME they provided >10yrs of serial fucking catastrophes, which I've yet to experience with _this _brand / manufacturer. (That might - obv - change if I now begin to experience serial Apple failures...)

e2a: or to put that another way, I felt pushed more than pulled.


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## Idaho (Feb 12, 2013)

editor said:


> Oh OK. So Apple didn't come top so it must all be absolute bollocks, the differences are negligible, the whole exercise poor marketing' techniques (although I'm not quite sure what's been marketed here), and as such the opinions of the 320,000 people asked can be _completely_ dismissed out of hand.
> 
> 
> I think that pretty much sums up the response from certain quarters here.


The lesson from those graphs is that people are generally just as happy with one as with another.


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## editor (Feb 12, 2013)

I think when people buy into what they expect to be a wonderful product and it truly disappoints, then the reaction can often be extreme - as you can see here: "I'll never buy a HTC again".


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## editor (Feb 12, 2013)

Idaho said:


> The lesson from those graphs is that people are generally just as happy with one as with another.


Well, yes and no. The historical context would show massive rises in consumer satisfaction with brands that previously had never been top rated.


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## Idaho (Feb 12, 2013)

editor said:


> Well, yes and no. The historical context would show massive rises in consumer satisfaction with brands that previously had never been top rated.


.. That when you make a shiny new smartphone with all the usual bells and whistle, most people will be happy with it.


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## mrs quoad (Feb 12, 2013)

editor said:


> I think when people buy into what they expect to be a wonderful product and it truly disappoints, then the reaction can often be extreme - as you can see here: "I'll never buy a HTC again".


tbh, I wouldn't say that. I'd just need to be re-pushed into it. I'd need to experience a set of serial failures that were similar to those I encountered over a decade (or so) of Windows experience / 3ish yrs of Android / HTC in order to be 'pushed' back to them.

IYSWIM.

I'm not sure that's quite the same as what the article's describing; not least because it rests on being driven away by fucktastrophes and annoyance, rather than drawn in / sustained by relatively arbitrary self-justifications.

If someone sticks to main, well-lit roads because every single time they've walked down a backroad they've been stabbed, that's slightly different to choosing main roads on a relatively arbitrary basis and then justifying that decision as an excellent / superior one to alternative backroad routes. IYSWIM.


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## beesonthewhatnow (Feb 12, 2013)

editor said:


> I think when people buy into what they expect to be a wonderful product and it truly disappoints, then the reaction can often be extreme - as you can see here: "I'll never buy a HTC again".


I freely admit to this with regards to Motorola. One (_incredibly_) bad phone over 10 years ago and I still wouldn't buy anything from them today. Makes no sense really, but hey ho


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## Idaho (Feb 12, 2013)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> I freely admit to this with regards to Motorola. One (_incredibly_) bad phone over 10 years ago and I still wouldn't buy anything from them today. Makes no sense really, but hey ho


Time is limited and the sheer amount of options in the world require one to narrow the field, often arbitrarily.


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## beesonthewhatnow (Feb 12, 2013)

Idaho said:


> Time is limited and the sheer amount of options in the world require one to narrow the field, often arbitrarily.


Often yeah, but for tech stuff I'm one of those that will pour over specs and every review site going. I just have an irrational hatred of Motorola


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## editor (Feb 12, 2013)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> I freely admit to this with regards to Motorola. One (_incredibly_) bad phone over 10 years ago and I still wouldn't buy anything from them today. Makes no sense really, but hey ho


I was trying to think if there's any brands that I feel that way about, but I don't think there are any.

There are a few retailers that I refuse point blank to use ever again, mind.


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## Idaho (Feb 12, 2013)

I hate apple. Don't like Ford or vauxhall. Don't like Nike either. All irrational.


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## beesonthewhatnow (Feb 12, 2013)

Idaho said:


> I hate apple


Apple is the oddball for me. I don't like the company. I don't like their marketing. Their shops are ridiculous. I don't like the air of twattishnes that comes with their products. But after being basically forced into using their machines (certain key apps for my work only being iOS/OSX) I have to grudgingly admit that they make stunningly good hardware and their OS is superb...


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## Elvis Parsley (Feb 12, 2013)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> Apple is the oddball for me. I don't like the company. I don't like their marketing. Their shops are ridiculous. I don't like the air of twattishnes that comes with their products. But after being basically forced into using their machines (certain key apps for my work only being iOS/OSX) I have to grudgingly admit that they make stunningly good hardware and their OS is superb...


pretty much this. i've used a few apple products over the years, with varying degrees of satisfaction and success, but they generally don't suit my needs so i go elsewhere.

it's the company i have a problem with, i find their marketing strategies, expected staff behaviour and overall image creepy and i have no desire to be associated with them. i rarely took my ipad out in public for fear of looking a twat, but my nexus 7 feels fine.

edit: HTC Desire still going strong and i'm pretty sure they came with a two year warranty, not 12 months


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## TheHoodedClaw (Feb 12, 2013)

Wolveryeti said:


> I am not touching HTC again after the shitpile that was my Desire. The microphone was incredibly quiet, and it had a bug that periodically meant it would go into speakerphone mode while taking calls. 12 month warranty meant I could do nothing.


 
My Desire did two years of trusty service. How come you had a 12 month warranty? Did you buy it outright?


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## TheHoodedClaw (Feb 12, 2013)

Idaho said:


> The lesson from those graphs is that people are generally just as happy with one as with another.


 
Indeed. The smartphone market has delivered at various price points. There's no secret about how this has been done, but it's still been remarkably fast. Ubiquitous high speed mobile data connection is next I guess, but I don't think it will be quite so easy to monetize. After all, local networks need some employees on site, and not jumping off the roof at a Foxconn factory.


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## Hocus Eye. (Feb 12, 2013)

Elvis Parsley said:


> (snip)... i rarely took my ipad out in public for fear of looking a twat...


Strangely my Galaxy S3 which is " Pebble Blue" came with earphones that were white with white wires. I packed them away and use some black ones with black wires that I used with my previous phone. I didn't want to look as if I had an iPhone or iPod for similar reasons. Apple's over the top marketing has that effect on some of us.


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## Fez909 (Feb 12, 2013)

I think what those graphs show more than anything is that the smartphone ecosystem as a whole is mature. The top devices are all broadly capable of the same thing, and Android and IOS have both reached a point where not much can be added to them to make them better, like desktop OSs.

A few years back IOS/iPhone was a much better experience because the OS was written in a faster language, more optimised, whatever. Now that hardware has caught up, Android now performs as well and there's no difference now except for personal preference and the odd feature here and there.


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## Badgers (Feb 12, 2013)

I won't go back to HTC after they failed to upgraded the software on my Desire HD  Still running on Android 2.3.5 Gingerbread

Apple can fuck off so either Samsung or Nexus next.....


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## elbows (Feb 12, 2013)

mauvais said:


> I for one am wholly unaffected by advertising.


 
I would make the same claim. But branding is about more than advertising.


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## elbows (Feb 12, 2013)

Elvis Parsley said:


> i rarely took my ipad out in public for fear of looking a twat


 
Same here. Luckily I'm not terribly mobile (rarely have need to use public transport etc) so I've got plenty of use out of it in the privacy of my own home


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## Fez909 (Feb 12, 2013)

No one is unaffected by advertising. It's a bollocks claim.


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## elbows (Feb 12, 2013)

You cant be affected by it if you dont see it. I dont watch any television advertising, and I very rarely see any print advertising. However I do see some on the web, and I have watched apple adverts, often as a result of discussion here on product launch days. 

I will modify my claim, not unaffected but negatively affected, the adverts are almost always creepy or cheesy. Launch events do sometimes sell me on products though.


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## editor (Feb 12, 2013)

elbows said:


> You cant be affected by it if you dont see it. I dont watch any television advertising, and I very rarely see any print advertising. However I do see some on the web, and I have watched apple adverts, often as a result of discussion here on product launch days.
> 
> I will modify my claim, not unaffected but negatively affected, the adverts are almost always creepy or cheesy. Launch events do sometimes sell me on products though.


 Thing is, you'll talk to people who have seen those adverts, and they may then indirectly influence your buying decisions.


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## elbows (Feb 12, 2013)

editor said:


> Thing is, you'll talk to people who have seen those adverts, and they may then indirectly influence your buying decisions.


 
Not bloody likely in my case, but I take your point.


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## editor (Feb 12, 2013)

elbows said:


> Not bloody likely in my case, but I take your point.


I don't believe anyone is totally impervious to any external influences.


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## Kid_Eternity (Feb 12, 2013)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> Often yeah, but for tech stuff I'm one of those that will pour over specs and every review site going. I just have an irrational hatred of Motorola


 
Having grown up reading Noam Chomsky I find the idea of loving a company very odd indeed. I've literally never had brand loyalty at all, as my other half calls it I'm technologically promiscuous.


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## editor (Feb 12, 2013)

Some people seem to fall deeply in love with some companies. Even employees.

It's very cult-like.


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## dweller (Feb 12, 2013)

well my desire z is still going strong, 
 dropped it loads of times on to hard ground, no problems.
I use a great cm7 based gingerbread rom and the phone flies along faster than ever 
I really don't get the appeal of ICS so am not worried that my phone isn't powerful enough for it.
I don't really like the feel of Samsungs, too light and plastic.
Though their camera is better.
Perhaps one of HTCs problems is with people like me who refuse to upgrade every year or two.


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## Fez909 (Feb 12, 2013)

dweller said:


> well my desire z is still going strong,
> dropped it loads of times on to hard ground, no problems.
> I use a great cm9 based gingerbread rom and the phone flies along faster than ever
> I really don't get the appeal of ICS so am not worried that my phone isn't powerful enough for it.
> ...


 
Man, if the Desire Z was more powerful I'd get one as my next phone. A real keyboard and looks great.  And no stupidly massive screen.


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## dweller (Feb 12, 2013)

Fez909 said:


> Man, if the Desire Z was more powerful I'd get one as my next phone. A real keyboard and looks great.  And no stupidly massive screen.



Yeah keyboard is good to have even though I preferred the one with the G1.
I had almost given up on this phone until I installed this latest rom. 
It is so responsive it felt like I'd got a new phone.
Sure I can't play the top games but who cares when you've got Wordfeud 
Also it works with new google apps like latest youtube. I'm happy.
By the way if anyone wants to try the ROM it is called Absolution 3.7


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## bendeus (Feb 15, 2013)

Had two HTCs (Hero and Desire) before switching to my S3. Had already made the decision never to go back. Brand loyalty waned over time as the flaws became more apparent. Too flakey by half, IMO. They'd have to produce a game changer to win my custom back.


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## editor (Feb 16, 2013)

Well, I have _zero_ brand loyalty. My next phone will be made by the company who make the best phone for my needs and I don't care who that is.


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