# What is a londoner ?



## sir.clip (Dec 7, 2006)

Just a side swerve from Mods thread about Robert Elms...

I'm intrested in what people belive to be a LONDONER
It seems to me that most peoples idea of Being a londoner is to mearly inhabit the inna boundry of the M25..

I'm a born and bred Brixton boy ..A Londoner..

If a scouser who had lived in london for 30 years said to me that he considers himself a londoner, I would not be able to accept that.. Same for any person not born within a london post code... but it seems to be O.K for the media to deem anyone a londoner.
Even bloody red Ken is on that tip, with his 'We Are london campaign.' 

This really bothers me as my identity & cultural background is being eradicated by the media...

I say to be a londoner you must be born in London...


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## Belushi (Dec 7, 2006)

I've lived her 12 years and love London, and consider myself a Londoner.  As far as Im concerned anyone who lives here and loves the city is a Londoner.


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## dash (Dec 7, 2006)

It's just a matter of opinion.

A Londoner is someone who is born here or someone who has lived here for several years and has no immediate plans to go elsewhere - in my opinion.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Dec 7, 2006)

I was born in Greenwich but lived in various parts of London before I was 5 or 6 when I moved to Essex.  Returned to London when I was 17.

My grandfather lived in Brixton and had a shop in Brixton from the 1930s up until the late 70s (although could have been much earlier)


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## Poi E (Dec 7, 2006)

sir.clip said:
			
		

> I'm a born and bred Brixton boy ..A Londoner..




Or a South Londoner as some would have it


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## STFC (Dec 7, 2006)

I think of myself as a Londoner now, but I know I'm not a proper one. I'll always be a West Country boy, no matter how long I live here.


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## Tricky Skills (Dec 7, 2006)

Mt definition is:

(i) Someone who lives within Zone 4 and

(ii) Someone who is tolerant.


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## marshall (Dec 7, 2006)

am I still a Londoner?

Born, bred, lived in woolwich for 20 years, but moved out 10-12 years ago. I don't supoose I am really, although I know the neighbours still refer to me as 'that bloke from london'...

...but then that's Norfolk for you...


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## snorbury (Dec 7, 2006)

londoners


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## Kameron (Dec 7, 2006)

sir.clip said:
			
		

> I'm a born and bred Brixton boy ..A Londoner..


And still in London? That doesn't make you a Londoner, that just makes you to lazy to move 

I consider myself a Londoner, I was born in Wandsworth but I didn't grow up here which has the unpleasant side effect that when I'm drunk and expounding I sometimes develop a West Country accent. Other than that I've lived here for 8 years and in Brixton for more than half of that, I'm certainly a Londoner but I know lots of people with far more shaky connections to the capital who I think it would be fair to call Londoners. I think that it is a state of mind not a place you are born; setting a bar for membership is just cliquey and speaks of insecurity in my book.


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## girasol (Dec 7, 2006)

I've lived in London for 17 years...

I consider myself 1/2 londoner 

wouldn't want to live anywhere else.


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## Onket (Dec 7, 2006)

STFC said:
			
		

> I think of myself as a Londoner now, but I know I'm not a proper one. I'll always be a West Country boy, no matter how long I live here.



Same.


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## Treacle Toes (Dec 7, 2006)

Londoner here, born and breed.


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## Yossarian (Dec 7, 2006)

I'd say just about any London resident counts as a Londoner - I don't think the same rule would apply to any other UK city, but I don't think any other UK city has got the same proportion of people from elsewhere. 

You want to avoid confusion, call yourself a 'native Londoner' or something.


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## Rollem (Dec 7, 2006)

Tricky Skills said:
			
		

> (ii) Someone who is tolerant.


LMFAO!!

to me its someone born and bred in london

me = londoner


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## snorbury (Dec 7, 2006)

people from Thornton Heath and Leytonstone mainly in my opinion, the rest are incomers


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Dec 7, 2006)

Yossarian said:
			
		

> I'd say just about any London resident counts as a Londoner - I don't think the same rule would apply to any other UK city, but I don't think any other UK city has got the same proportion of people from elsewhere.



By that token if I moved to Tokyo and I could say that I'm Japenese?

Hounslow born & bred = West Londoner


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## Yossarian (Dec 7, 2006)

Didn't most of the 'real' Londoners get shipped out to Essex and Stevenage and places anyway?


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Dec 7, 2006)

Yossarian said:
			
		

> Didn't most of the 'real' Londoners get shipped out to Essex and Stevenage and places anyway?




That's East Londoners, farmed out to breed mockneys.


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## Griff (Dec 7, 2006)

_Londoners_


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## Treacle Toes (Dec 7, 2006)

Yossarian said:
			
		

> Didn't most of the 'real' Londoners get shipped out to Essex and Stevenage and places anyway?



No, I still live here.....and there are many more like me


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## Divisive Cotton (Dec 7, 2006)

Well I was "born and bred" in Romford, which is within the M25 and in the London Borough of Havering, but at the same time is in Essex - so what am I?

Anybody can come to London to live and call themselves a Londoner - this is probably unique to Britain. If I moved to Liverpool, no matter how long I lived I would never be a Liverpudlian.


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## Onket (Dec 7, 2006)

Yossarian said:
			
		

> I'd say just about any London resident counts as a Londoner - I don't think the same rule would apply to any other UK city, but I don't think any other UK city has got the same proportion of people from elsewhere.
> 
> You want to avoid confusion, call yourself a 'native Londoner' or something.



It would seem there are Londoners, and then there are Londoners, born & bred. I'm fine with that.


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## Belushi (Dec 7, 2006)

> so what am I?


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## Griff (Dec 7, 2006)

I was born and brought up in Leytonstone. Lived there most of my life. I'd consider myself a Londoner. Never had a Cockney accent though, probably as mum's a Geordie and my dad was Northern Irish.  


Live in a villiage in rural North Essex now though.


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## RaverDrew (Dec 7, 2006)

Born and bred South Londoner here, although it does feel like we're a minority in some parts of London.


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## Yossarian (Dec 7, 2006)

Bahnhof Strasse said:
			
		

> By that token if I moved to Tokyo and I could say that I'm Japenese?
> 
> Hounslow born & bred = West Londoner



Nope - you could probably call yourself a Tokyo-ite or a while though and nationality's far from the same thing anyway - lots of Londoners aren't English.

I'm sure there's the same controversy about who gets called what in New York or Sydney or any other city where most of the residents come from somewhere else.


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## blossie33 (Dec 7, 2006)

I have lived in London for nine years and however long I stay here I would never think of myself as a Londoner. To me, a Londoner is someone who was born here (not too sure of how far the geographical boundry is though).


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## portman (Dec 7, 2006)

Methinks I could have the potential for an identity crisis! Born in Forest Gate before that part of East London was absorbed by the GLC (this happened in 1965). Brought up in Romford (London Borough of Havering) which has always had Essex in its postal address. Havering has always had a semi-detached relationship to the rest of London - reflected in the strange nature of it's local politics... I moved out to Thurrock when I got married - that was part of Essex but is now a unitary authority. 

So what the hell am I?!!


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## Treacle Toes (Dec 7, 2006)

Onket said:
			
		

> It would seem there are Londoners, * long term residents*, and then there are Londoners, born & bred. I'm fine with that.



Fixed it for you.


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## Treacle Toes (Dec 7, 2006)

RaverDrew said:
			
		

> Born and bred South Londoner here, although it does feel like we're a minority in some parts of London.



Does that bother you?


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## sir.clip (Dec 7, 2006)

Poi E said:
			
		

> Or a South Londoner as some would have it







			
				Kameron said:
			
		

> I think that it is a state of mind not a place you are born; setting a bar for membership is just cliquey and speaks of insecurity in my book.





for sure poi E, I love south london Its my home & my familys home & my friends home & dead friends old home & home to many good people, but not all are londoners.

kameron. Thats my point..  I really do feel insecure about people calling themselves Londoners when they are not... its a false impresion to give some one..
To me its the same as working within a hospital as a porter but calling yourself a doctor.. Its a bareface lie... 
Anyone can consider themselves to be anything they wish (fantasy) but in truth many are not at all what they consider themselves to be at all...

It is not a club, it is fact. & yes my londoner friends are very clicky.. But yes You are either a londoner or your not... 
Anyone is welcome to experience London. To work, to live, to visit, to play, to pass through.. And every individual will feel a bond with this great city. 
But with out being born within a london post code & having the upbringing of the capitals inna-city life, how could anyone seriously belive themselves to be a Londoner.. Its beyond me....  

It bothers me that Londoners are a minority in London...


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## Yossarian (Dec 7, 2006)

Why the hell would it bother anyone that London-born people are a minority in London? Hasn't that been the case for most of London's history?


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## mod (Dec 7, 2006)

I was born in Earls Court to parents from Belfast, grew up in Deptford until 12 and have since lived in Hounslow, Isleworth, Chiswick, Kensington, Battersea and East Dulwich since. I think I qualify!

We should erect an Israeli style wall around the M25, introduce a London Passport and ethnic clean the 'subjects' who were not born here. Even if that means genocide. I'm fed up feeding these parasites.


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## RaverDrew (Dec 7, 2006)

Rutita1 said:
			
		

> Does that bother you?



Only when I see locals priced out of being able to afford housing in areas where their families have lived for generations.  When your local community pub gets turned into a vibrant wine bar etc.


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## sir.clip (Dec 7, 2006)

For me Its plane & simple, Community..

I feel that in my area it is now hard to find other Londoners. People who have common intrests & simular upbringings. People who share the same cultural upbringing & sense of London traditions... People who know the history of certain areas within london. People who can speak & understand the language of a londoner. People who would like to hold on to london traditions London morals, london history, London architecture, London art & London Livlyhoods. 
It is hard to adopt a fake persona with people that do not understand or appreciate the traditions of London & Londoners... Its an easy thing to overlook as it is a big & busy city.. but when the image of the (however much I hate em) cockney has disapeared it will be missed.. 
I can mix with all cultures & religions, but I get depressed when I see my own culture & traditions being ignored or undervalued..


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## marty21 (Dec 7, 2006)

Onket said:
			
		

> Same.



ditto


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## Yossarian (Dec 7, 2006)

sir.clip said:
			
		

> For me Its plane & simple, Community..
> 
> I feel that in my area it is now hard to find other Londoners. People who have common intrests & simular upbringings. People who share the same cultural upbringing & sense of London traditions... People who know the history of certain areas within london. People who can speak & understand the language of a londoner. People who would like to hold on to london traditions London morals, london history, London architecture, London art & London Livlyhoods.




Ah, they were probably saying the same thing here in the 12th century...


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## Griff (Dec 7, 2006)

sir.clip said:
			
		

> For me Its plane & simple, Community..
> 
> I feel that in my area it is now hard to find other Londoners. People who have common intrests & simular upbringings. People who share the same cultural upbringing & sense of London traditions... People who know the history of certain areas within london. People who can speak & understand the language of a londoner. People who would like to hold on to london traditions London morals, london history, London architecture, London art & London Livlyhoods.


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## Badger Kitten (Dec 7, 2006)

RaverDrew said:
			
		

> Born and bred South Londoner here, although it does feel like we're a minority in some parts of London.



such as North London


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## Belushi (Dec 7, 2006)

Yossarian said:
			
		

> Ah, they were probably saying the same thing here in the 12th century...



Innit, those fucking Flemings coming here and nicking our jobs


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## Yossarian (Dec 7, 2006)

sir.clip said:
			
		

> People who share the same cultural upbringing & sense of London traditions...


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## marty21 (Dec 7, 2006)

Yossarian said:
			
		

>



is that the albert?


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## fortyplus (Dec 7, 2006)

A londoner is someone who loves london town

You become a londoner the minute you get here.


That's what makes it such a great place. Not like the sticks where you're only local if all your ancestors were born there.


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## Yossarian (Dec 7, 2006)

marty21 said:
			
		

> is that the albert?



Wetherspoons, I think...


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## Treacle Toes (Dec 7, 2006)

sir.clip said:
			
		

> It bothers me that Londoners are a minority in London...



London has always been like that....nothing new there....


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## Treacle Toes (Dec 7, 2006)

sir.clip said:
			
		

> I can mix with all cultures & religions, but I get depressed when I see my own culture & traditions being ignored or undervalued..



Who is undervaluing and ignoring them?


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## sir.clip (Dec 7, 2006)

It is easy to jest at such trivial matters...

As for the 12th century the population of London was about 18,000...

so i guess there was little concern about Likemind london folk but i guess there where a few troubled londoners wondering why they built a bridge over the river..


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## Treacle Toes (Dec 7, 2006)

Yossarian said:
			
		

> Wetherspoons, I think...


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## Treacle Toes (Dec 7, 2006)

sir.clip said:
			
		

> It is easy to jest at such trivial matters...
> 
> As for the 12th century the population of London was about 18,000...
> 
> so i guess there was little concern about Likemind london folk but i guess there where a few troubled londoners wondering why they built a bridge over the river..



Who is jesting?
How many people do you know who were born in the 12th century...?


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## sir.clip (Dec 7, 2006)

fortyplus said:
			
		

> You become a londoner the minute you get here..




Utter tripe mate..


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## Treacle Toes (Dec 7, 2006)

sir.clip said:
			
		

> Utter tripe mate..



Agree.


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## sir.clip (Dec 7, 2006)

I dont know any one born in the twelth centuary personally.. 

But the king of Kings & great warrior Richard the lion heart is one of my favourite 12 centuary boys..


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## Yossarian (Dec 7, 2006)

sir.clip said:
			
		

> As for the 12th century the population of London was about 18,000...
> 
> so i guess there was little concern about Likemind london folk but i guess there where a few troubled londoners wondering why they built a bridge over the river..



From Londononline:

1AD — a few farmsteaders 
50 — 5–10,000 
140 — 45–60,000 
300 — 10–20,000 
400 — fewer than 5000? 
500 — a few hundred? 
700 — a few thousand in the new city of Lundenwic 
900 — a few thousand in the re-established city of Lundenburgh 
1000 — 5–10,000 
1100 — 10–20,000 
1300 — 50–100,000 (according to research by Derek Keene) 
1350 — 25–50,000 following the Black Death 
1500 — 50–75,000 
1600 — 200,000 
1650 — 350,000 
1700 — 550,000 (nearly 10% of the population of England and Wales) 
1750 — 700,000 
1801 — 959,300 (at the time, Europe's largest city) 
1831 — 1,655,000 (most populous city in the world) 
1851 — 2,363,000 
1891 — 5,572,012 
1901 — 6,506,954 
1911 — 7,160,525 
1921 — 7,386,848 (soon to be overtaken by New York City as most populous city in the world) 
1931 — 8,110,480 
1939 — 8,615,245 (population peak) 

London - 2,000 proud years of complaining about incomers...


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## Belushi (Dec 7, 2006)

sir.clip said:
			
		

> But the king of Kings & great warrior Richard the lion heart is one of my favourite 12 centuary boys..



He was a Frenchman who only visited London a couple of times.


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## sir.clip (Dec 7, 2006)

Yossarian said:
			
		

> From Londononline:
> 
> 
> 
> London - 2,000 proud years of complaining about incomers...



so i aint breaking any traditions then am I ?


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## sir.clip (Dec 7, 2006)

Belushi said:
			
		

> He was a Frenchman who only visited London a couple of times.




no mate he was born in England... Oxford.. with french blood line..

so i guess he's a f'ing londoner too then  ?


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## Yossarian (Dec 7, 2006)

sir.clip said:
			
		

> so i aint breaking any traditions then am I ?




Yep, and I'm sure if I were to hang around here long enough to raise kids, they'd grow up to do some complaining themselves about all the Martians or whatever moving in...


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## Belushi (Dec 7, 2006)

sir.clip said:
			
		

> no mate he was born in England... Oxford.. with french blood line..
> 
> so i guess he's a f'ing londoner too then  ?



He was born in Oxford but only spent a total of about six months of his life in England, never spoke English etc. Their French possesions were more important than England to the Angevins.


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## sir.clip (Dec 7, 2006)

Yossarian said:
			
		

> Yep, and I'm sure if I were to hang around here long enough to raise kids, they'd grow up to do some complaining themselves about all the Martians or whatever moving in...




Innit... Blooming E.T's


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## Poi E (Dec 7, 2006)

So you have to be born on London to be a Londoner? What say you were born in London but then moved away, and then moved back? How many years would you have to be here to be a Londoner?


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## Griff (Dec 7, 2006)

_Londoner_


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## sir.clip (Dec 7, 2006)

Belushi said:
			
		

> He was born in Oxford but only spent a total of about six months of his life in England, never spoke English etc. Their French possesions were more important than England to the Angevins.



Look mate he's English..

Just like I'm a londoner

And just like how your so wrong about him being French..


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## sir.clip (Dec 7, 2006)

Griff said:
			
		

> _Londoner_




Ha ha.. this is going beyond a bloody joke..


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## sir.clip (Dec 7, 2006)

Poi E said:
			
		

> So you have to be born on London to be a Londoner? What say you were born in London but then moved away, and then moved back? How many years would you have to be here to be a Londoner?




Look if your born here in london town.. in my london view your always a Londoner & can come down my local & sing the ol favs while I tinkle the ivorys on the ol joanna.


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## Poi E (Dec 7, 2006)

sir.clip said:
			
		

> Look if your born here in london town.. in my london view your always a Londoner & can come down my local & sing the ol favs while I tinkle the ivorys on the ol joanna.



 

Pity they don't make any decent beer in London.


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## sir.clip (Dec 7, 2006)

Poi E said:
			
		

> Pity they don't make any decent beer in London.




Not any more... 
cos like since all the londoners have left no one drinks the Youngs.. and they have shut down me brewery guvnor...


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## fortyplus (Dec 7, 2006)

London does have a long and odious tradition of complaining about incomers.

There were riots against Huguenots, Jews and blacks.

Every wave of immigration made the town a better place despite the blinkered  attitude of the mob. London culture doesn't get swamped, it changes: it now includes bagels, curry and patties as well as jellied eels. 

Hopefully we've got beyond that. I'm with the Londoners who stood up to Mosely at Cable St.

If  those who were born here or whose parents were born here are real Londoners and the rest of us are mere incomers, second-class citizens in some kind of way (in mediaeval times some trades were reserved for native londoners) that's not a value set that sits happily in the 21st-century London I'm happy to live in.

If you live here, you're a Londoner. If you don't live here, you're a tourist.
All that matters, end of.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Dec 7, 2006)

My sister was born in Glasgow, to parents from West London who were visiting the city for a few weeks, then came back down to London where she still lives today.

So is she a Londoner or a Weedjie*? 

She is a penny pincher and her oldest kid is a big ginger.


ETA: Weedjie - not


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## Belushi (Dec 7, 2006)

sir.clip said:
			
		

> Look mate he's English..
> 
> Just like I'm a londoner
> 
> And just like how your so wrong about him being French..



He spoke French, he lived in France, he came to England too make sure he was getting his taxes.


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## Yossarian (Dec 7, 2006)

Bahnhof Strasse said:
			
		

> So is she a...Wedgie?


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## sir.clip (Dec 7, 2006)

fortyplus said:
			
		

> If you live here, you're a Londoner. If you don't live here, you're a tourist.
> All that matters, end of.



That dont sit happly with this Londoner...

my sister was born in london & now lives in jamiaca... So when she comes HOME ( notice the word  Home) shes a londoner born & bred... her fellow is from Yard he lived here for years but he aint no londoner He's a rasta Man.. & a lovely one at that...

You may be happy in this here london town but just ask yourself this.. 
Are you a londoner Or do you consider yourself a londoner...?


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## sir.clip (Dec 7, 2006)

Belushi said:
			
		

> He spoke French, he lived in France, he came to England too make sure he was getting his taxes.



He was born in England.


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## sir.clip (Dec 7, 2006)

Bahnhof Strasse said:
			
		

> My sister was born in Glasgow, to parents from West London who were visiting the city for a few weeks, then came back down to London where she still lives today.
> 
> So is she a Londoner or a Wedgie?
> 
> She is a penny pincher and her oldest kid is a big ginger.




She's not a londoner But A weegie.... A sweaty sock..


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## Belushi (Dec 7, 2006)

sir.clip said:
			
		

> He was born in England.



I was born in Brisbane, but havent been to Australia since i was three and my family are Brits, doesd that amke me an Aussie or a Pom?


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## Poi E (Dec 7, 2006)

sir.clip said:
			
		

> Not any more...
> cos like since all the londoners have left no one drinks the Youngs.. and they have shut down me brewery guvnor...



Youngs is shit, though, really...


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## sir.clip (Dec 7, 2006)

Poi E said:
			
		

> Youngs is shit, though, really...



No its Beer. 

shit stinks of poo & tastes fowl.


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## sir.clip (Dec 7, 2006)

Belushi said:
			
		

> I was born in Brisbane, but havent been to Australia since i was three and my family are Brits, doesd that amke me an Aussie or a Pom?



Aussie.


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## kyser_soze (Dec 7, 2006)

sir.clip - get over yourself. 

And what exactly are these unique traits that you talk of that define you as a Londoner and you feel are threatened by arrivistes like myself (born & raised in essex for 16 years, now lived in London for 16 so in 1 year I've been a Londoner more than an Essex boy) then? What makes you so utterly unique that you feel insecure enough to feel culturally threatened by the one thing that's kept London one of the world's leading cities, centres of culture etc for centuries - immigration?

Tosser.


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## STFC (Dec 7, 2006)

sir.clip said:
			
		

> That dont sit happly with this Londoner...
> 
> my sister was born in london & now lives in jamiaca... So when she comes HOME ( notice the word  Home) shes a londoner born & bred... her fellow is from Yard he lived here for years but he aint no londoner He's a rasta Man.. & a lovely one at that...
> 
> ...



It obviously _really_ matters to you.


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## Yossarian (Dec 7, 2006)

So was Dick Whittington a Londoner? What about his cat?


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## fortyplus (Dec 7, 2006)

sir.clip said:
			
		

> That dont sit happly with this Londoner...
> 
> my sister was born in london & now lives in jamiaca... So when she comes HOME ( notice the word  Home) shes a londoner born & bred... her fellow is from Yard he lived here for years but he aint no londoner He's a rasta Man.. & a lovely one at that...
> 
> ...



It's my home.


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## Griff (Dec 7, 2006)

_Londoner_


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## Poi E (Dec 7, 2006)

Griff said:
			
		

> _Londoner_



 The lovable cockney cunt himself.


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## STFC (Dec 7, 2006)

Cockney? I always thought he was South London.


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## liberty (Dec 7, 2006)

Not sure it really matters what people want to call themselves


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## sir.clip (Dec 7, 2006)

kyser_soze said:
			
		

> sir.clip - get over yourself.
> 
> And what exactly are these unique traits that you talk of that define you as a Londoner and you feel are threatened by arrivistes like myself (born & raised in essex for 16 years, now lived in London for 16 so in 1 year I've been a Londoner more than an Essex boy) then? What makes you so utterly unique that you feel insecure enough to feel culturally threatened by the one thing that's kept London one of the world's leading cities, centres of culture etc for centuries - immigration?
> 
> Tosser.



i've not mentioned any traits.. just said what I feel.. It is hard to find londoners in my own area...
I guess the main trait for me is that one would be born within a London post code..(or for me Within the circle of the M25)

I do not belive i am unique there are many that share my views..

I do not feel threatend by any outer towners posing as Londoners but its more I feel upset that they would ever consider themselves to be a londoners when they are not. My identity as  a londoner is somewhat overlooked by individuals if  they belive that by moving to or Living in London makes them a londoner.. 
It has nothing to do with immigration.. but everything to do with identity..
I'm just fighting for my corner & standing up to imposters posing as londoners when in fact they are not Londoners..


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## sir.clip (Dec 7, 2006)

STFC said:
			
		

> It obviously _really_ matters to you.



well of course it does other wise why would I start a thread about it..?


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## STFC (Dec 7, 2006)

sir.clip said:
			
		

> well of course it does other wise why would I start a thread about it..?



People start threads for all sorts of reasons. I'm just surprised by how much it seems to bother you.

You think that you're different because you were born within the M25. Good luck to you. London is my home and I don't particularly care whether you think I'm a 'Londoner' or not.

My missus has lived in London all her life and is always saying how much she hates the place. Personally, I love it and can't ever see myself leaving. Hope that's ok with you.


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## Griff (Dec 7, 2006)

sir.clip said:
			
		

> i've not mentioned any traits.. just said what I feel.. It is hard to find londoners in my own area...
> I guess the main trait for me is that one would be born within a London post code..(or for me Within the circle of the M25)
> 
> I do not belive i am unique there are many that share my views..
> ...



Move to Harlow. It's full of bombed-out old salt of the Earth Eastenders.


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## liberty (Dec 7, 2006)

I do not know where I am 'from' I have moved around so often. I would not call myself a Londoner but I have been here a long time so it is my home... And that's all that matters really 

But to be so hung up about something like others calling themselves a Londoner  is a bit of a waste of time


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## tbaldwin (Dec 7, 2006)

sir.clip said:
			
		

> I do not belive i am unique there are many that share my views..
> 
> ..




I think thats true.Its just a truth that a lot of people on urban find hard to accept or understand...Often White Incomers live in the same streets but in different worlds....


----------



## liberty (Dec 7, 2006)

Griff said:
			
		

> Move to Harlow. It's full of bombed-out old salt of the Earth Eastenders.


My uncle was born in London Fields knew the Krays now lives in Waltham Abbey he's the most London< Londoner I've ever met  Salt of the earth


----------



## sir.clip (Dec 7, 2006)

Griff said:
			
		

> Move to Harlow. It's full of bombed-out old salt of the Earth Eastenders.



sounds great... 
Maybe they all know that Cameron Davidson is Jims real name & that he is from Kidbrooke SE london & that Cliff Richard is actually Indian.

Saxifraga x urbium...


----------



## marshall (Dec 7, 2006)

In my opinion, sir clip’s not a Londoner. 

To be a true Londoner you not only have to have lived here all your life, but your parents, their parents and their parents’ parents all have to have been born within the sound of the bells.

You’re a fake, sir clip, a true wannabee…


----------



## sir.clip (Dec 7, 2006)

liberty said:
			
		

> I do not know where I am 'from' I have moved around so often. I would not call myself a Londoner but I have been here a long time so it is my home... And that's all that matters really
> 
> But to be so hung up about something like others calling themselves a Londoner  is a bit of a waste of time




hey dude.. Thats cool Its your home As well as home to many...

I would never get angry over any one wanting to come and set up shop here in London. but if you aint a Londoner i understand that you would not understand my stance.. Any londoner would understand that.. 
Its a london thing after all...
We can still live together happily...


----------



## sir.clip (Dec 7, 2006)

marshall said:
			
		

> In my opinion, sir clip’s not a Londoner.
> 
> To be a true Londoner you not only have to have lived here all your life, but your parents, their parents and their parents’ parents all have to have been born within the sound of the bells.
> 
> You’re a fake, sir clip, a true wannabee…




my family go back to the 16th centary.. My family name is documented & our family business is still going strong here in london... I aint going to tell you my family name though.... But our business is Joinery.   Saxifraga x urbium...


----------



## robotsimon (Dec 7, 2006)

The M25 is a bit of an arbitrary boundary to choose isn't it? Why would people who happen to live within an area encircled by a motorway started in 1975 have anything in common? 

By your curious definition, someone born and raised in the rural Essex village of Stapleford Abbots or in the North Downs at Chevening is as much a Londoner as someone born and raised in Whitechapel?


----------



## marshall (Dec 7, 2006)

sir.clip said:
			
		

> my family go back to the 16th centary.. My family name is documented & our family business is still going strong here in london... I aint going to tell you my family name though.... But our business is Joinery.   Saxifraga x urbium...




Yup, as I thought, a nOOb...


----------



## kyser_soze (Dec 7, 2006)

> i've not mentioned any traits.. just said what I feel



Well you’ve certainly alluded to them:



> I feel that in my area it is now hard to find other Londoners. People who have common intrests & simular upbringings. People who share the same cultural upbringing & sense of London traditions... People who know the history of certain areas within london. People who can speak & understand the language of a londoner. People who would like to hold on to london traditions London morals, london history, London architecture, London art & London Livlyhoods.
> It is hard to adopt a fake persona with people that do not understand or appreciate the traditions of London & Londoners... Its an easy thing to overlook as it is a big & busy city.. but when the image of the (however much I hate em) cockney has disapeared it will be missed..
> I can mix with all cultures & religions, but I get depressed when I see my own culture & traditions being ignored or undervalued..



What’s funny is that the things I associate with London – open mindedness, a big enough space to be whom you want to be, in fact the exact opposite of what I grew up with in Essex with it’s small minds and small thoughts about the world. – are the reasons I call myself a Londoner because I’ve got the same outlook on people and life.

But I’d be intrigued to know how knowing the history of a specific area of London makes you more of a ‘Londoner’ – when I was working at Tesco Surrey Quays as a uni student I generally knew more about London’s history (including the history of Bermondsey) then the locals I worked with who were born and bred Londoners like yourself.

London livelihoods eh? So that’d be everything from being a hansom cab driver to stock broking to working in the TV and media industries would it? I mean, the BBC has been headquatered in London since it’s creation, as has much of the UKs media, although I doubt that’s what you have in mind when you say a ‘London livelihood’

So come on, what are these London-centric things you’re talking about that you have to be born and bred in London to be uniquely aware of?



> I'm just fighting for my corner & standing up to imposters posing as londoners when in fact they are not Londoners..



I can’t believe you haven’t been pulled up for this – it’s EXACTLY the argument that the BNP and the racists use when talking about immigration – hell, on that DNA tracing programme a couple of weeks ago they actually had someone on there saying that even the children of immigrants born in the UK weren’t British, let alone those who’d moved from overseas.

Fuck me – this is one of the most reactionary threads I’ve ever, ever read on Urban. 



> my family go back to the 16th centary



So you're nothing more than 4 century arriviste - a REAL Londoner would trace their roots back to the Romans, surely?


----------



## sir.clip (Dec 7, 2006)

marshall said:
			
		

> Yup, as I thought, a nOOb...



if thats all your going bring to the table marshall. i'll dine somewhere else...


----------



## Poi E (Dec 7, 2006)

STFC said:
			
		

> Cockney? I always thought he was South London.



Apologies to cocknies...He is indeed a South Londoner.


----------



## marshall (Dec 7, 2006)

sir.clip said:
			
		

> if thats all your going bring to the table marshall. i'll dine somewhere else...




Sorry mate, just can't take you seriously.


----------



## kyser_soze (Dec 7, 2006)

> People who have common intrests & simular upbringings. People who share the same cultural upbringing & sense of London traditions



Another thing - these communities you talk about; so strong, so deeply ingrained with each other that you've all stayed in touch as peeps have moved away eh? Real sign of a solid community that is.


----------



## sir.clip (Dec 7, 2006)

kyser_soze said:
			
		

> I can’t believe you haven’t been pulled up for this –
> 
> Fuck me – this is one of the most reactionary threads I’ve ever, ever read on Urban.



Pulled by who ?

Thats cool, reactionary is a good thing...

My whole argument/point is that If you are not born in london How can you be a londoner.. I do not belive this to be racist.

But its just fact... Its not that hard to understand or accept.. If you wish to call yourself a Londoner & you where not born In london Good luck to you.. But you are really only kidding yourself.

I found it irritating when I read in time out magazine 'my favourite londoner' 
that half the people are not what I and other londoners consider Londoners.. Same thing for the Robert Elms listed londoner show..

And by knowing the history of your own area & passing this knowledge on to others is actually quite a plesent thing to do. Its intresting & its unwritten history.. like my grandad told me once not to swim in a certain area of a serpentine because his friend had got caught up in the weeds and drowned many years ago..  I never swam in that part & i'm here today winding you up..


----------



## Griff (Dec 7, 2006)




----------



## sir.clip (Dec 7, 2006)

Griff said:
			
		

>



O.K its off to the pie & mash for a bottle & a splash of the hovis...


----------



## kyser_soze (Dec 7, 2006)

> My whole argument/point is that If you are not born in london How can you be a londoner.. I do not belive this to be racist.



No, but your argument is - that you can't have an adopted identity, that you need to be born in a geographical area to describe yourself as such.



> Thats cool, reactionary is a good thing...



WTF?!?!?


----------



## sir.clip (Dec 7, 2006)

kyser_soze said:
			
		

> No, but your argument is - that you can't have an adopted identity, that you need to be born in a geographical area to describe yourself as such.
> 
> 
> 
> WTF?!?!?




look i've put it as plain as it can be written. 
you can jazz it up in your own terms.. 

The term londoner 'in my own view' should be only be applied to individuals born within the area of London England land. 
Anyone else can just dream on of holding the gracious title of A Londoner.

Now i've got to go to get some tickets for that new jim davidson show & clean Out me ferrets.


----------



## kyser_soze (Dec 7, 2006)

Yep, and all I'm saying is that's the same arguement the BNP and racists use about immigrants, so I hope that you're happy to use the same logic as they are.

Not that I was expecting it, but you still haven't said anything about any of the 'London only' stuff like 'Londoners morality' either...


----------



## Griff (Dec 7, 2006)

sir.clip said:
			
		

> Anyone else can just dream on of holding the gracious title of A Londoner.


----------



## sir.clip (Dec 7, 2006)

kyser_soze said:
			
		

> Yep, and all I'm saying is that's the same arguement the BNP and racists use about immigrants, so I hope that you're happy to use the same logic as they are.
> 
> Not that I was expecting it, but you still haven't said anything about any of the 'London only' stuff like 'Londoners morality' either...




well you seem to know alot more about the BNP than i fucking ever will.. 

Its a london thing me ol cocker

Oh yeh one last word before I go home Kyser-sozer..

ESSEX


----------



## sir.clip (Dec 7, 2006)

kyser_soze said:
			
		

> Yep, and all I'm saying is that's the same arguement the BNP and racists use about immigrants, so I hope that you're happy to use the same logic as they are.
> 
> Not that I was expecting it, but you still haven't said anything about any of the 'London only' stuff like 'Londoners morality' either...




well you seem to know alot more about the BNP than i fucking ever will.. 

Oh yeh one last word before I go home Kyser-sozer..

ESSEX


----------



## STFC (Dec 7, 2006)

sir.clip said:
			
		

> Anyone else can just dream on of holding the gracious title of A Londoner.



Gracious title? Hahaha. You carry on with your delusions of grandeur, fella. The rest of us'll just get on with living here.

Just because you live in a stable doesn't mean you're a horse, eh?


----------



## fortyplus (Dec 7, 2006)

Been thinking about this....

So, "it's a matter of identity" is it sir.clip? I'll accept that, but identity is to do with who you are, not where you're from.  Racist ideology is based on confusing identity with origins.

So, if only the born-and-breds are Londoners, iyo, what does that make the rest of us? By your definition, I'm a brummie; not by mine - it's certainly not home.

Take away all the people you call non-Londoners: what are you left with? Not a London I'd want to have anything to do with, that's for sure - and nor, I think, would you. Londoners are all the people who make London the best city in the world, born-and-bred or not.

Probably, though, anyone who still seriously harbours notions of one day going "back home" wherever that is, is still really a tourist - just visiting like -  not a Londoner.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 7, 2006)

sir.clip said:
			
		

> He's a rasta Man..


Surely you mean, He's a Jamaican?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 7, 2006)

sir.clip said:
			
		

> Pulled by who ?
> 
> Thats cool, reactionary is a good thing...
> 
> My whole argument/point is that If you are not born in london How can you be a londoner.. I do not belive this to be racist.


Please forgive my ignorance, but what the hell has race got to do with it....I was under the impression most people on this thread saying they consider themselves 'Londoners' even if they weren't born in London, are in fact White folk.....where did race come into the conversation?


----------



## waverunner (Dec 7, 2006)

I haven't read this thread except for the first post but I have to say sir.clip that it vaguely hurts to hear that sort of thing. I was born in the UK and lived there for ooo 2 years before being whisked off to live abroad in various places before settling in Cyprus. I've always identified myself as Cypriot because I grew up there, I speak the language, I know the place like the back of my hand, I have friends there, I am like them even though my blood is a mix of not Cypriot and not English blood. So, according to you though I am from UK, even though I have no memory of the place, I don't know anything about it etc etc. If you were to tell me 'you are from UK' I would consider myself as not having a real background as it is not me at all.


----------



## bluestreak (Dec 7, 2006)

what is a londoner?  anyone who lives in the greater london area and considers london to be their actual or spiritual homeland.  anyone who would defend london from those that seek to homogenise or clean her up.  anyone who sees the m25 as the borders of sanity, decency and decorum.  a londoner is one who is proud to be here and couldn't imagine being anywhere else.


----------



## sir.clip (Dec 7, 2006)

Rutita1 said:
			
		

> Please forgive my ignorance, but what the hell has race got to do with it....I was under the impression most people on this thread saying they consider themselves 'Londoners' even if they weren't born in London, are in fact White folk.....where did race come into the conversation?



I dont know.. kyser_soser i think..

but its true. It aint got anything to do with race... 
For me as i keep stating is that Its a matter of if your a londoner or not...
If your born in London  . then sweet your a londoner.

if you aint born in london. how can you ever be a londoner ?

Its become such a mainstream catch 'to be a Londoner'... ... 
Sing along all the world.. 'maybe its because i'm a londoner, that i love london town.....

And yes Barrington my sisters fellow is a Jamaican..


----------



## sir.clip (Dec 7, 2006)

waverunner said:
			
		

> I haven't read this thread except for the first post but I have to say sir.clip that it vaguely hurts to hear that sort of thing. I was born in the UK and lived there for ooo 2 years before being whisked off to live abroad in various places before settling in Cyprus. I've always identified myself as Cypriot because I grew up there, I speak the language, I know the place like the back of my hand, I have friends there, I am like them even though my blood is a mix of not Cypriot and not English blood. So, according to you though I am from UK, even though I have no memory of the place, I don't know anything about it etc etc. If you were to tell me 'you are from UK' I would consider myself as not having a real background as it is not me at all.



well sorry to tred on yer Creps mate.. but you are british by birth.. If you where born in london Then hey Your a Londoner...
Sing a long 'maybe because i'm a londoner' It really aint that hard to figure,,,

but if you feal cypriot then enjoy it..... but you can not hide your past..


----------



## Yossarian (Dec 7, 2006)

tbaldwin said:
			
		

> Often White Incomers live in the same streets but in different worlds....



Do non-white incomers immediately transform into geniune Cockneys then?  Weirdo.


----------



## Dj TAB (Dec 7, 2006)

Belushi said:
			
		

> I've lived her 12 years and love London, and consider myself a Londoner.  As far as Im concerned anyone who lives here and loves the city is a Londoner.



Spread the love - it's all in the head.

I've had several friends move to London only to hate it and move out. Loving London isn't necessarily easy but once it's got under your skin you are a Londoner and will find it nigh on impossible to leave.....

Not sure I should confess this but I'm from the environs of Pompey, and you couldn't pay me enough to return there even on a temporary basis. I don't have anything against Portsmouth, and will always have a soft spot for it but now I live in London thats it - LONDONER!


----------



## Roadkill (Dec 8, 2006)

I don't think you have to have been born in London to consider yourself a Londoner, any more than you have to have been born anywhere else to consider yourself a native of that place.  You just have to regard it as home, IMO.  

I live in London but don't regard it as home.  Given half a chance I'd shift straight back to Hull, which I do think of as home, though I wasn't born there either.


----------



## Kameron (Dec 8, 2006)

*OK, lets go down the sir.clip route: can we define Londoners as:*

*People whose families have been continuously resident in London since 1666?* Such a person will be a Londoner all their lives regardless of where they live but their children will not be Londoners if they are not born and brought up in London by said parents.

Fair? 1666 isn't just a random date either; it is the date of the great fire of London and the end of the Black Death. I'm happy to listen to anyone who wants to move the date earlier though pushing it back to AD 43 and the foundation of London by the Romans could be seen as overkill.


----------



## kyser_soze (Dec 8, 2006)

> Please forgive my ignorance, but what the hell has race got to do with it



Rutita, if you actually bothered reading my posts you'd see that what I'm saying is that sir.clip is using the same arguement racists use when they claim that naturalised immigrants aren't British - you weren't born here, you can't call yourself a Londoner/You're an immigrant you can't call yourself British.

I commented on how funny it was that no one had pulled him up on that line of thinking. Altho obviously my point was a bit too subtle for you and sir.clip...


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 8, 2006)

kyser_soze said:
			
		

> Rutita, if you actually bothered reading my posts you'd see that what I'm saying is that sir.clip is using the same arguement racists use when they claim that naturalised immigrants aren't British - you weren't born here, you can't call yourself a Londoner/You're an immigrant you can't call yourself British.
> 
> I commented on how funny it was that no one had pulled him up on that line of thinking. Altho obviously my point was a bit too subtle for you and sir.clip...



Kyser...I think that If *you* actually read my posts *you'd *see that that question was not aimed at you, it was asked of *sir clip*......*Maybe that was a bit too subtle for you eh?* 

Go and get narky with someone else please.


----------



## kyser_soze (Dec 8, 2006)

You asked 'where did race come into it' and it hasn't - I made the basic point about his thought process which talked about race, so I bought it up in the first place...


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 8, 2006)

Kyser mate.....it went like this....



			
				kyser_soze said:
			
		

> You asked 'where did race come into it' and it hasn't - I made the basic point about his thought process which talked about race, so I bought it up in the first place...



I asked sir clip why he was bringing race into it after he wrote this...




			
				sir.clip said:
			
		

> My whole argument/point is that If you are not born in london How can you be a londoner.. I do not belive this to be racist....



To which he responded....




			
				sir.clip said:
			
		

> I dont know.. kyser_soser i think..



I haven't answered that comment or mentioned your name in relation to that, ie...*i have not accused you of anything*.....so perhaps you should take it up with him and not bite at me?


----------



## sir.clip (Dec 8, 2006)

Rutita1 said:
			
		

> To which he responded....
> 
> he said it was you that brought it into it...take it out on him?




I never wrote this.. Thats a bare Lie....

I'm sticking to my guns..

 If you aint born In london, You aint A Londoner.. (in my opinion)

If you are Born in london You are a londoner.. (in My opinion)

As for the whole British argument.. Thats another debate.. 
kyser can compare anything I have written to anything he so choose's.. 
The fact remains I am a londoner...& i feel upset when the media prints  Or refers to people as Londoners when they In my opinion are not...


----------



## fortyplus (Dec 8, 2006)

In London, there's Londoners (for whom it's home) and tourists (who plan to go go home someday).

Londoners include people who can be labelled as brummies, essex boys, poles, born-and-breds, frogs or one of several thousand other origin-labels. Many of the origin-labels can be offensive and they should have fuck all to do with identity.
Plenty of londoners do choose to make a thing of their origin as identity, though, whether it's as poles or as born-and-breds or whatever. That they do is a unpleasant fact that lies at the root of racism.

It's partly about words. What I call Londoners - the inclusive mass of us - sir.clip has no word for. So what would you call us, sir.clip - those of us for whom London is our home, regardless of our origins?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 8, 2006)

sir.clip said:
			
		

> I never wrote this.. Thats a bare Lie....



Ahem....in post number 120 you wrote...



			
				sir.clip said:
			
		

> I dont know.. kyser_soser i think..



I don't lie dear, I don't need to.


----------



## sir.clip (Dec 8, 2006)

fortyplus said:
			
		

> It's partly about words. What I call Londoners - the inclusive mass of us - sir.clip has no word for. So what would you call us, sir.clip - those of us for whom London is our home, regardless of our origins?



Yes i agree it is only words..

I think you have a direct link to the area in which you are born. You have no choice in this selection & you may not like the fact that you where born in a named area but the fact remains that you where born there & that is where you where born.. so i am a londoner someone born in new york would be a New yorker.. someone born in liverpool is a scouser... so on..

as a collective name for folk who come & enjoy London to work, live, play party, abuse, enjoy .. I refer to most as Friends...


----------



## sir.clip (Dec 8, 2006)

Rutita1 said:
			
		

> Ahem....in post number 120 you wrote...
> 
> 'he said it was you that brought it into it...take it out on him?'
> .



I never wrote this in post 120.. please go back & review you work...

And we all lie... thats the truth...


----------



## Onket (Dec 8, 2006)

I saw 100% English & so I know where Kyser is coming from. I think sir clip is only a very small step away from some of the thinking in that programme- especially the Essex commedian.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 8, 2006)

sir.clip said:
			
		

> I never wrote this in post 120.. please go back & review you work...
> 
> And we all lie... thats the truth...


   Are you for real?

Go back and look at post 120 mate, you wrote it, I have quoted it, and it is still there for all to read....so please go back and review *your* own work.


----------



## sir.clip (Dec 8, 2006)

O.k i had a thought..
Chapagne..

The term "champagne" is often used by makers of sparkling wine in other parts of the world, many claim it should properly be used to refer only to the wines made in the Champagne region.

In Europe and most other countries, the name "Champagne" is legally protected as part of the Treaty of Madrid (1891) to mean only sparkling wine produced in its namesake region and adhering to the standards defined for that name as an Appellation d'Origine Contrôlée. This right was reaffirmed in the Treaty of Versailles following World War I. Even the term méthode champenoise, or champagne method is, as of 2005, forbidden in favor of méthode traditionnelle. There are sparkling wines made all over the world, and many use special terms to define their own sparkling wines: Spain uses Cava, Italy calls it spumante, and South Africa uses Cap Classique. A sparkling wine made from Muscat grapes in Italy uses the DOCG Asti. In Germany, Sekt is a common sparkling wine. Other regions of France are forbidden to use the name Champagne; for example, wine-makers in Burgundy and Alsace produce Crémant. However, some Crémant producers label their product in a manner apparently designed to mislead consumers into believing that they are actually purchasing Champagne. 
(source wikipedeia...)

So anyone can call spumante champagne.. and what would it matter..
But it would be incorrect...


----------



## sir.clip (Dec 8, 2006)

sir.clip said:
			
		

> I dont know.. kyser_soser i think..
> 
> but its true. It aint got anything to do with race...
> For me as i keep stating is that Its a matter of if your a londoner or not...
> ...



O.K rutita here is the full qoute 120..
there is no mention as far as i can see of 

'he said it was you that brought it into it...take it out on him?'

Can you see it ?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 8, 2006)

Onket said:
			
		

> I saw 100% English & so I know where Kyser is coming from. I think sir clip is only a very small step away from some of the thinking in that programme- especially the Essex commedian.



I am not 100% English, but I am a Londoner, born and breed........and frankly I don't give a rats behind who thinks what, how they do it, and why they think it.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 8, 2006)

sir.clip said:
			
		

> 'he said it was you that brought it into it...take it out on him?'


I said that to Kyser, because he seemed to think it was *me* who brought his name into this, when in fact it was you.

In terms of my work....Ok....now I think I've got you, it has been sorted. I have edited post 129.


----------



## sir.clip (Dec 8, 2006)

Rutita1 said:
			
		

> I am not 100% English, but I am a Londoner, born and breed........and frankly I don't give a rats behind who thinks what, how they do it, and why they think it.




good for you...


----------



## sir.clip (Dec 8, 2006)

Rutita1 said:
			
		

> I said that to Kyser, because he seemed to think it was *me* who brought his name into this, when in fact it was you.




so the fact is i never wrote  'he said it was you that brought it into it...take it out on him?' . 

Then why qoute me as saying it & when I deny writting it persist with telling me I did..  Thats not very nice & completely liable A lie  & a damnation.. 

but i wont take it to heart..


----------



## Belushi (Dec 8, 2006)

> So anyone can call spumante champagne.. and what would it matter..
> But it would be incorrect...



But whats that got to do with people?  Londoners are the people who live in London - someone who was born in London for example and left as a baby and had never visited again wouldn't be a Londoner - just as Im not an Australian despite spending the first three years of my life there.


----------



## Griff (Dec 8, 2006)

_Londoner_


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 8, 2006)

sir.clip said:
			
		

> good for you...



I do hope you are not patronising me Mr clip.....because I think you'll find you don't have the authority to do so.


----------



## sir.clip (Dec 8, 2006)

Belushi said:
			
		

> But whats that got to do with people?  Londoners are the people who live in London - someone who was born in London for example and left as a baby and had never visited again wouldn't be a Londoner - just as Im not an Australian despite spending the first three years of my life there.





Its an example... people are like grapes. a living organism...

 I disagree with you..
I belive that if you where born in london you will always be a Londoner..


Do you have a australian passport ? 
& On your birth certificate are you Australian ?


----------



## Griff (Dec 8, 2006)

_Londoner_


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 8, 2006)

sir.clip said:
			
		

> so the fact is i never wrote  'he said it was you that brought it into it...take it out on him?' .
> 
> Then why qoute me as saying it & when I deny writting it persist with telling me I did..  Thats not very nice & completely liable A lie  & a damnation..
> 
> but i wont take it to heart..




Listen...I made a mistake when I was quoting you, nothing more sinister than that...the only thing I have been insisting you have said is *that it was Kyser who brought race into the discussion*...and that is why I told you to go back to post 120, and quoted you.


----------



## sir.clip (Dec 8, 2006)

Rutita1 said:
			
		

> Listen...I made a mistake when I was quoting you, nothing more sinister than that...the only thing I have been insisting you have said is *that it was Kyser who brought race into the discussion*...and that is why I told you to go back to post 120, and quoted you.




Yeh WHATEVER !!!!!!!


----------



## Belushi (Dec 8, 2006)

sir.clip said:
			
		

> Do you have a australian passport ?
> & On your birth certificate are you Australian ?



No - but i could if I wanted
Dual British/Australian


----------



## Griff (Dec 8, 2006)




----------



## sir.clip (Dec 8, 2006)

Griff said:
			
		

> _Londoner_






Only Harry H. Corbett OBE (born Rangoon, Burma - now Yangon, Myanmar - 28 February 1925)

Not a londoner at all....


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## Griff (Dec 8, 2006)

sir.clip said:
			
		

> Only Harry H. Corbett OBE (born Rangoon, Burma - now Yangon, Myanmar - 28 February 1925)
> 
> Not a londoner at all....



Don't you mean Wilfred Brambell?

Fule!


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## sir.clip (Dec 8, 2006)

Belushi said:
			
		

> No - but i could if I wanted
> Dual British/Australian




Exactly you are Australian by birth... But it is left up to you to consider yourself what you wish.. I +have no problem with that mate..

but in my book you will never be a Londoner.. 

No worrys though mate...


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## Belushi (Dec 8, 2006)

sir.clip said:
			
		

> Exactly you are Australian by birth... But it is left up to you to consider yourself what you wish.. I +have no problem with that mate..
> 
> but in my book you will never be a Londoner..
> 
> No worrys though mate...



So you accept I'm British despite not being born here but wont accept I'm a Londoner?


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## Relahni (Dec 8, 2006)

I am not a Londoner - I was born in Newcastle. (am I a Geordie - No I am not).

My daughter was born opposite the House of Commons - she is a Londoner.

My girlf was born in London - she is a Londoner.


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## sir.clip (Dec 8, 2006)

Griff said:
			
		

> Don't you mean Wilfred Brambell?
> 
> Fule!



sorry... 

wilfred brambell born in Dublin..


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## sir.clip (Dec 8, 2006)

Belushi said:
			
		

> So you accept I'm British despite not being born here but wont accept I'm a Londoner?




Sure i do. I have no arguement about that..


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## Griff (Dec 8, 2006)

sir.clip said:
			
		

> sorry...
> 
> wilfred brambell born in Dublin..



Albert Steptoe, born in Shepherd's Bush.


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## sir.clip (Dec 8, 2006)

Griff said:
			
		

> Albert Steptoe, born in Shepherd's Bush.



O.k.... Steptoe is a londoner in the script..


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## Rollem (Dec 8, 2006)

*random info*

 i have done dealings / selling in steptoe's yard (all for my boss when i worked down shepherd's bush market and he was 'too busy' to go along - i.e. owed some other dodgy geeza money)


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## Treacle Toes (Dec 8, 2006)

> Wikipedia
> Directory > Reference > Wikipedia Londoner
> 
> *A Londoner is someone who inhabits or originates from London. Although the term Londoner is generally accepted as covering all people from Greater London, it is sometimes used to mean more narrowly a 'Cockney', and tradition has it that true Cockneys are only those who are born within the sound of Bow Bells (i.e., the peal of the church bells of the parish church at St Mary-le-Bow, Cheapside, London).
> ...



I decided I didn't like sir.clips definition of a Londoner and believe it doesn't represent the openmindedness and acceptance that most Londoners possess...I see his definition as very un-London-er IYSWIM.....

No offence sir.clips but I don't agree....


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## Pip (Dec 8, 2006)

I've only read the first 1 1/2 pages.

People who aren't born in London aren't proper Londoners. Sorry, but they're not. They certainly add to this city, and I love that people love my city enough to want to call themselves Londoners... but they're not. There's just something missing and I don't know what it is. People who've lived away from London for more than say, 10 years, also lose a bit of London I think.


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## Griff (Dec 8, 2006)

_Londoners_


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## kyser_soze (Dec 8, 2006)

Enid Laundromat said:
			
		

> I've only read the first 1 1/2 pages.
> 
> People who aren't born in London aren't proper Londoners. Sorry, but they're not. They certainly add to this city, and I love that people love my city enough to want to call themselves Londoners... but they're not. There's just something missing and I don't know what it is. People who've lived away from London for more than say, 10 years, also lose a bit of London I think.



So a naturalised immigrant can't call themselves British, right?


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## northernhord (Dec 8, 2006)

I thought Londoners were people who were born there not incomers, i remember a posh student in Manc saying he was Mancunian cos he decided to live there after his Masters Degree had ended, pull the other one!


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## Pip (Dec 8, 2006)

kyser_soze said:
			
		

> So a naturalised immigrant can't call themselves British, right?


Don't jump down my neck, I said I couldn't put my finger on what's different about non-Londoners, of course a naturalised immigrant can call themselves British. I don't know, maybe it's because I identify myself as a Londoner rather than British. I mean... I am British (just), but don't know if I really have much in common with the majority of Brits. It's a funny one, and I'll admit that it's a gut feeling rather than anything logical or rational.


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## kyser_soze (Dec 8, 2006)

Enid Laundromat said:
			
		

> Don't jump down my neck, I said I couldn't put my finger on what's different about non-Londoners, of course a naturalised immigrant can call themselves British. I don't know, maybe it's because I identify myself as a Londoner rather than British. I mean... I am British (just), but don't know if I really have much in common with the majority of Brits. It's a funny one, and *I'll admit that it's a gut feeling rather than anything logical or rational.*



Think about what the argument actually says - that in order for someone to identify themselves as belonging to a specific geographical they have to be born there, and that anyone who moves there is precluded from identifying themselves with their adopted home.

For many people who move to London etc they'll never call themselves a Londoner - for me it's my adopted home, I've nearly lived here longer than where I was born, and I moved here precisely because it was somewhere I felt I belonged, so I call myself a Londoner. Who are you to say that because I wasn't born here I can't desribe myself as such?

Now substitute 'London' for 'Britain' and imagine I'm an naturalised immigrant to the UK.


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## Pip (Dec 8, 2006)

kyser_soze said:
			
		

> Think about what the argument actually says - that in order for someone to identify themselves as belonging to a specific geographical they have to be born there, and that anyone who moves there is precluded from identifying themselves with their adopted home.
> 
> For many people who move to London etc they'll never call themselves a Londoner - for me it's my adopted home, I've nearly lived here longer than where I was born, and I moved here precisely because it was somewhere I felt I belonged, so I call myself a Londoner. Who are you to say that because I wasn't born here I can't desribe myself as such?
> 
> Now substitute 'London' for 'Britain' and imagine I'm an naturalised immigrant to the UK.



Look, sorry if I've ruffled your feathers, but like I've said and you've quoted, it's not logical and it's not rational, and for those reasons I can't claim that I'm right, it's just what I feel. I agree completely with what you say about how substituting London for Britain would look, and that occurred to me as I was writing my original post, but I'm not going to lie. I'm not going to argue or try and change anybody's mind, I'm just giving my view as a Londoner.


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## Griff (Dec 8, 2006)

_Londoner_


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## waverunner (Dec 8, 2006)

I don't understand what the hell your birth place has to do with anything?! What happens if you're born on a bloody ship in the middle of the Atlantic ocean? Where are you from then?


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## kyser_soze (Dec 8, 2006)

Well, you'd obviously be an Atlatean wouldn't you? Or an Atlaticist, altho that would imply you follow a creed or belief system based on the Atlantic rather than being born there...

And IIRC you can claim the nationality of the ship you're travelling on can't you?


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## Onket (Dec 8, 2006)

Rutita1 said:
			
		

> I am not 100% English, but I am a Londoner, born and breed........and frankly I don't give a rats behind who thinks what, how they do it, and why they think it.



I'm sure I'm not 100% English either, but I am a Londoner, just not born & bred. 

So there.


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## Belushi (Dec 8, 2006)

> And IIRC you can claim the nationality of the ship you're travelling on can't you?



I believe thats the case but it might just be a myth!


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## Griff (Dec 8, 2006)

_Londoner_


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## waverunner (Dec 8, 2006)

Belushi said:
			
		

> I believe thats the case but it might just be a myth!


You're fucking with me


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## Treacle Toes (Dec 8, 2006)

Onket said:
			
		

> I'm sure I'm not 100% English either, but I am a Londoner, just not born & bred.
> 
> So there.



No argument here mate, but there are some who say you can't call yourself a *proper* Londoner.


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## Treacle Toes (Dec 8, 2006)

waverunner said:
			
		

> You're fucking with me


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## Pip (Dec 8, 2006)

Something tells me I've piqued a few provincial inferiority complexes.

<scarpers>


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## STFC (Dec 8, 2006)

Rutita1 said:
			
		

> No argument here mate, but there are some who say you can't call yourself a *proper* Londoner.



Let's be honest, who really gives a fuck? Apart from sir.clip, obviously.

Anyway, it's 5.05pm on a Friday. Cheerio.


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## Treacle Toes (Dec 8, 2006)

STFC said:
			
		

> Let's be honest, who really gives a fuck? Apart from sir.clip, obviously.
> 
> .


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## Cowley (Dec 8, 2006)

Someone who is born and brought up in London?


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## Azrael (Dec 9, 2006)

sir.clip said:
			
		

> I'm intrested in what people belive to be a LONDONER
> It seems to me that most peoples idea of Being a londoner is to mearly inhabit the inna boundry of the M25..
> 
> I'm a born and bred Brixton boy ..A Londoner..


Sorry mate, contradiction in terms, you were born in Surrey. Victorian re-zoning doesn't fool me. Only proper Londoners are born inside the Square Mile. Which I was. Lucky me. Not to worry, perfectly good county is Surrey, and Guildford's a lovely capital. No London mind, but what can you do, it's your roots. 

But to suggest the Sigil of Crowley defines the sacred boundary of Londinium?! Coming from a Londoner that would demand the withdrawal of silken noose rights in perpetuity and denial of dessert in Guildhall for at least five years: but from a foreigner? I can already hear them oiling up the hinges on Traitor's Gate. Harsh but fair. 

Disclaimer: this _reductio ad absurdum_ bears no relation to my actual views on the provenance and scale of London or its residents; except the comment on the M25, for which the Tower is far too lenient. Denial/force-feeding of jellied eels for 10 years. Minimum.


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## portman (Dec 9, 2006)

We are discussing a 'city' that throughout history has overspilled its borders and appropriated more territory - and will continue to do so. Not just territory for housing and the like but an ever growing hinterland that serves the needs of London. Which looking at the present situation, has to include the whole of the South East. With people commuting in to London from a long way out (Peterborough, Oxford, etc.), the whole discussion about who is or isn't a Londoner starts to get very fluid. Particularly when you take into account the number of Londoners over recent generations who have migrated out to the new towns and overspill towns across the South East.

London's growth has always depended on inward migration. With the hinterland of London taking in the whole South East, the picture is more complex, with Londoners moving out across the region and people moving into the South East. From what I've read, most of the growth is now taking place across the South East rather than in London itself. In other words, you cannot divorce London from the South East.

Which makes some of the comments on this thread about what is and isn't a Londoner a bit odd and possibly a bit worrying. It seems like it's another case of the politics of identity coming to the fore. With a chronic housing shortage across the South East, creaking infrastructure, pockets of deprivation and the like, there are more pressing issues to worry about than who you are!


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## ashtray (Dec 9, 2006)

What a shit thread...

Welcome immigration, welcome all the people who WANT to be called Londoners.

Of course, some of them know the histroy some of them dont but who really cares?

Only you it seems sir.clip.

Where were your parents born and their parents?

Mine were born in in London   (and by some people's definitions so was I!)


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## guinnessdrinker (Dec 9, 2006)

sir.clip said:
			
		

> Look mate he's English..
> 
> Just like I'm a londoner
> 
> And just like how your so wrong about him being French..



indeed, you can be a frenchman and a londoner.


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## guinnessdrinker (Dec 9, 2006)

sir.clip said:
			
		

> I'm sticking to my guns..
> 
> If you aint born In london, You aint A Londoner.. (in my opinion)
> 
> If you are Born in london You are a londoner.. (in My opinion)



are you manning the fort against those pesky incomers?


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## guinnessdrinker (Dec 9, 2006)

sir.clip said:
			
		

> Its an example... people are like grapes. a living organism...



with your talk of champagne appellation controle and links of terroir to people, are you not using blood and soil ideology?


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## guinnessdrinker (Dec 9, 2006)

sir clip, are you a member of the London Nationalist Party?


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## lang rabbie (Dec 9, 2006)

*London Pride*




			
				sir.clip said:
			
		

> Saxifraga x urbium...



Oh... the irony.   




			
				Noel Coward said:
			
		

> There's a little city flower every spring unfailing
> Growing in the crevices by some London railing,
> Though it has a Latin name, in town and country-side
> We in England call it London Pride.





> A favourite London garden plant which deserves its appellation, being also notably tolerant of pollution. The name, sentimentalised in Noel Coward’s song during the last war, is applied to a range of rosette forming Saxifrages bearing clouds of starry pink or white flowers on long stalks.
> 
> The true London Pride *is of hybrid origin*; one parent, St Patrick’s cabbage S. spathularis, *comes from western Ireland *and the other, S. umbrosa, *from the Pyrenees*.



London’s Exotic Flora


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## cybertect (Dec 9, 2006)

A Londoner is a DMS bus, or at least that's what London Transport tried to get everyone to call it when they introduced it in 1971, in the same way the Routermasters it was intended to replace was known by a name 







As for _my_ Londoner-ness... I was born in Croydon, but my mum's family lived variously in Bethnal Green and St Pancras at the turn of the 20th century and before that Battersea. Then again my father's family is from the far north-west of England and  in the mid-19th century some parts of my mum's family came from the depths of Surrey and Hampshire while others emigrated from Germany and Poland.

I'd figure that's not an unusual mixed heritage for anyone whose family have lived in and around London over the last 150 years and considers themselves a Londoner.


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## Treacle Toes (Dec 9, 2006)

guinnessdrinker said:
			
		

> sir clip, are you a member of the London Nationalist Party?


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## Onket (Dec 10, 2006)

STFC said:
			
		

> I think of myself as a Londoner now, but I know I'm not a proper one. I'll always be a West Country boy, no matter how long I live here.



Right then, I agreed with this but I wasn't even born in the West Country. So what does that make me? Apart from a gypsy traveller chav scum obviously.


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## STFC (Dec 11, 2006)

Onket said:
			
		

> Right then, I agreed with this but I wasn't even born in the West Country. So what does that make me? Apart from a gypsy traveller chav scum obviously.



Answered your own question there sunshine!


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## Onket (Dec 11, 2006)

I see.


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## ashtray (Dec 11, 2006)

Will you two get a room!


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## Blagsta (Dec 11, 2006)

sir.clip said:
			
		

> hey dude.. Thats cool Its your home As well as home to many...
> 
> I would never get angry over any one wanting to come and set up shop here in London. but if you aint a Londoner i understand that you would not understand my stance.. Any londoner would understand that..
> Its a london thing after all...
> We can still live together happily...



Bollocks.  I'm a Londoner (born in Perivale maternity hospital) and I don't agree with you.


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## portman (Dec 12, 2006)

Enid Laundromat said:
			
		

> I've only read the first 1 1/2 pages.
> 
> People who aren't born in London aren't proper Londoners. Sorry, but they're not. They certainly add to this city, and I love that people love my city enough to want to call themselves Londoners... but they're not. There's just something missing and I don't know what it is. People who've lived away from London for more than say, 10 years, also lose a bit of London I think.



Hang on a minute please! London has always sucked in huge numbers of people to fuel its growth - historically, the place has been built on immigration. Now, as well as continuing to suck people in, it spews them out as people move out to various points in the South East and beyond. The population of London has always had a large degree of fluidity and historically, has always seemed to manage to absorb large influxes of newcomers. Which makes the idea of a fixed, rigid identity as a Londoner a little bit wierd IMHO...


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## dash (Dec 12, 2006)

> There's just something missing and I don't know what it is.



Cannot see anything special or exclusive in being a Londoner. It's not like being part of some ethnic group or obscure religious sect. Everything here is up for grabs.


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## sir.clip (Dec 12, 2006)

I Just wanted to say that over the weekend I asked about 30 people what they consider a londoner to be.
All but two people agree that A Londoner is some-one born In the area of london..

It dont matter About race Or ethnic background.. 
Any one born on the sacred london soil becomes a londoner..
As someone said above, it aint a religous or ethnic thing Its about being a Londoner & respecting that fact .. sod what Wikipedia says & i'm sorry to all non londoners who Live here.. But as a Londoner Born outside the square mile (Azreal) i stand by the facts...


'Ashtray' as for being British or accepting immigration or being English, Scottish Welsh Or Irish I really do Not give a Hoot. Immigration has never troubled me really. I live and let live.. But identity has and it troubles us all.  
I care about the term Londoner being misused in the English language. (Although from studying dictionarys over the weekend It clearly says that a Londoner is a Native Or inhabitant of London..)
It is a very important role to be a Londoner & if there was a London national party i'd be intrested in meeting them & hearing their views..
I've always belived London should have its own Flag & I belive there should be a National holiday to celebrate being a Londoner.. all people in london can celebrate with londoners & experience its social appeal.. Even Red Ken. 

As for the person who asked about my parents & grandparents.
Yes my family go back to the 16th centuary here in Londinium.. 
Proud I am too...

As for people born on a ship in the middle of a sea Or ocean i have no idea what These folk would consider themselves or other folk consider them to be ? I guess they are very lucky so & so's because it would be a very rare & sacred thing... To be the god son Or daughter of Neptune..
I'll do some research...


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## Onket (Dec 12, 2006)

Let it drop, it's dull as fuck now.


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## sir.clip (Dec 12, 2006)

O.k 

After a quick chat with other's & a rethink I'll accept that any one can join the London posse.. And be a Londoner..


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## Blagsta (Dec 12, 2006)

sir.clip said:
			
		

> sacred london soil



pfffffffffft


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## Treacle Toes (Dec 12, 2006)

sir.clip said:
			
		

> O.k
> 
> After a quick chat with other's & a rethink I'll accept that any one can join the London posse.. And be a Londoner..



My word, how is it that you are sooooooooooo very generous?


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## STFC (Dec 13, 2006)

sir.clip said:
			
		

> It is a very important role to be a Londoner & if there was a London national party i'd be intrested in meeting them & hearing their views.....



London national party? You do know what 'national means don't you?




			
				sir.clip said:
			
		

> I've always belived London should have its own Flag...



The City of London has its own flag. But you'd know that, being a _Londoner_.


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## Azrael (Dec 17, 2006)

sir.clip said:
			
		

> But as a Londoner Born outside the square mile (Azreal) i stand by the facts...


All true Londoners, resist this usurpation by the perfidious Surreydian! 

Actually I've reconsidered; true Londoners must be born within the footprint of the old Roman walls. And be able to trace their ancestors back to AD 50. Having entered this world in St Bart's I'm not, in fact, a Londoner. But I'm closer to it than Sir Clip, so I demand precedence. 

Hail Claudius!


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## sunflower (Dec 19, 2006)

I've lived in London for 17 years but still don't think of myself as a Londoner. My other half, on the other hand was born in Balham and has lived here all his life. I would call him a definite Londoner.


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## lang rabbie (Dec 19, 2006)

STFC said:
			
		

> The City of London has its own flag. But you'd know that, being a _Londoner_.



Those who weren't born within the square mile  may prefer to swear allegiance to:






The flag of the London County Council and Greater London Council.


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## ethnicprayer (Jan 13, 2007)

sir.clip said:
			
		

> No its Beer.
> 
> shit stinks of poo & tastes *fowl*.



You're thick, aren't you? Taste like chicken, does it?

At least your consistent with your ignorance, I suppose.


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## upsidedownwalrus (Jan 13, 2007)

A real Londoner is someone who was born there and then moved away/abroad.  They complain about the place constantly but secretly miss some things about it.

People who moved to London in their 20s and go on about how 'groovy' and 'dynamic' it is are not real Londoners.  They will probably bugger off back to the countryside in 5 years anyway.


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