# why do all the middle class people i know tend to want to move out of London?



## BigMoaner (Jan 22, 2014)

Since having a child, the realities of London life have hit me. first a disclaimer, my child will be going to a school that is nearly 80% non-white british (we are white british), and is a school which is generally swerved by the white middle classes...

...all of the middle class parents i know in my area (SE27 and the surrounding) all say they want to move out. Some snicker in my face at the very idea of raising their kids here until secondary schooling age. To be honest, as it is a deeply personal thing, I never push them about it - but a few of the answers I get are "we wouldn't feel safe letting them out to play in the street", and "we want better schools".

is that the only reason? i sometimes feel that race plays a part, when it really shouldn't. these normally liberal folk are choosing to "be amongst their own" somewhat, but surely that makes a mockery of their liberal beliefs? or is it a class thing? why the fear amongst the middle classes of raising their kids in london and inner london? i know there are huge exceptions, but still there is a trend, no?

i think it's a massively important subject, tbh.


----------



## girasol (Jan 22, 2014)

Raising kids in London can be challenging but it's also a lot more interesting than being raised in suburbia.  Don't know,  what do you want to hear?  There's plenty of white middle class kids in London though, my son goes to school with a few of them...

Also, London has the image of being 'dangerous', but compared to a lot of big cities it's actually quite safe.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Jan 22, 2014)

I imagine a big part of it is that what buys you a tiny one bed flat in London can get you a 4 bed family home with a garden elsewhere.


----------



## Ax^ (Jan 22, 2014)

BigMoaner said:


> Since having a child, the realities of London life have hit me. first a disclaimer, my child will be going to a school that is nearly 80% non-white british (we are white british)




the answer you are looking for


----------



## ddraig (Jan 22, 2014)

white flight/miwlwall fans/ignorance


----------



## girasol (Jan 22, 2014)

What matters is whether children have access to green spaces...  London has plenty of that.


----------



## quimcunx (Jan 22, 2014)

I don't have children. I was brought up in a little village in Scotland a long time ago.  From this position I can't imagine bringing up a child in London. The stories I hear about children in 'urban' secondary schools are very often negative and scare the fucking jebeezus out of me  about things I could not imagine how to counsel my imaginary children to navigate.  I realise that the schools I went to have probably changed a bit too.  So maybe some of it is because many people who spent their post uni years in london did their growing up elsewhere and want to move to somewhere they think their kids will have a more familiar childhood. And also the thing about 2 bed flat v 4 bed house with garden.


----------



## Ax^ (Jan 22, 2014)

And less children who don't have English as a second language at home


----------



## _angel_ (Jan 22, 2014)

you could probably get a few acres of land up north, for some of the silly prices on a small converted cupboard in London.


----------



## mrsfran (Jan 22, 2014)

girasol said:


> What matters is whether children have access to green spaces...  London has plenty of that.



I'm bringing my child up in London with no plans to move out. But this is the one thing that does make me sad - while we do have plenty of green space, it's not rural. By which I mean it's always fenced in and usually next to very busy roads. I can take my child to a lovely big park and she can whizz about on her scooter but I'm always nervous that she's going to go that extra 2 metres out of the gate and wind up on a busy road. You're never far away from traffic and danger.

Like I said, we have no plans to move out, but if we did it would be to give her some real green space, not a facsimile of it.


----------



## Dan U (Jan 22, 2014)

i know quite a few people who moved out of South London to Bristol. similar demographic, vibe etc, but an area where they can swap a flat for a house

Mrs and I moved to the countryside from Battersea and Croydon respectively. We still find the overwhelming whiteness of the area a bit weird but we spent most of our weekends driving out of London to find green spaces, go walking etc and less time going in to central london etc, so figured why not move to where we spend our leisure time.

personally love it, would never move back to any city I don't think.


----------



## mrsfran (Jan 22, 2014)

And, of course, because for the price of our tiny 2-bed flat I could buy a bloody mansion elsewhere. It'd be lovely to have a garden at least.


----------



## Rushy (Jan 22, 2014)

These white middle class sorts really are scum. When they're not busy plotting to roll into well established poor urban communities, pushing out the locals and gentrifying the area, they're fleeing whole postcodes en masse to avoid the minorities and moving somewhere where they can openly vote UKIP.


----------



## BigMoaner (Jan 22, 2014)

Rushy said:


> These white middle class sorts really are scum. When they're not busy plotting to roll into well established poor urban communities, pushing out the locals and gentrifying the area, they're fleeing whole postcodes en masse to avoid the minorities and moving somewhere where they can openly vote UKIP.



how many brixton property owners send their kids to brixton state schools? and i'm not talking about the one or two middle-class dominated religious schools...CC etc...the whole set up is pretty fucked up....


----------



## Ax^ (Jan 22, 2014)

BigMoaner said:


> how many brixton property owners send their kids to brixton state schools? and i'm not talking about the one or two middle-class dominated religious schools...CC etc...the whole set up is pretty fucked up....



*shrugs*


if becoming a parent has led to you developing what can only be called a slightly dodgy xenophobic mindset... thats fine..

just don't be trying to excuse it as something else


----------



## Thora (Jan 22, 2014)

We moved from a multi-cultural inner city area to a more suburban area (though in Bristol not London).
Race and language didn't come into our decision making though it is quite striking that compared to his old nursery, our son's new nursery is *very* white British.
The biggest difference was we lived in a 2 bed flat with no outside space, and there was no opportunity to move to a house with a garden where we were - and flats were really expensive as there was quite a big young professional/student market.
Also, sex and drugs litter was an issue, our downstairs neighbour ran a crack house, lots of very obvious day time street prostitution and drink/drug use.
No kids played out in the street.
Schools were a mixed bag of crap/less crap but there was a big lack of places.
The things we liked about the area were mainly down to living really close to town and there being lots of bars, clubs and restaurants on our doorstep, but once we had a baby we didn't really go out anyway.

So now we live on a pretty quiet estate, have a house with a garden, a choice of schools in walking distance, children play out in the street on their bikes and go to the playground.  It's not very exciting though (and really, really not middle class ).


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 22, 2014)

_angel_ said:


> you could probably get a few acres of land up north, for some of the silly prices on a small converted cupboard in London.



for the price of a Brixton flat you could probably buy a whole town up north


----------



## BigMoaner (Jan 22, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> for the price of a Brixton flat you could probably buy a whole town up north


a couple of streets, for sure


----------



## el-ahrairah (Jan 22, 2014)

if the middle classes want to get out because they cant afford it or handle the social deprivation that their economic bubble caused, imagine how shitty it is for us working classes.


----------



## mrsfran (Jan 22, 2014)

LOOK at what I could potentially buy if I moved to Knottingly, wherever the fuck that is: http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-41052013.html

Insanity.


----------



## Ax^ (Jan 22, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> if the middle classes want to get out because they cant afford it or handle the social deprivation that their economic bubble caused, imagine how shitty it is for us working classes.



shush it's because they can get more bang for their buck property wise..

don't worry their kids can move back in once they've finished uni


----------



## BigMoaner (Jan 22, 2014)

mrsfran said:


> LOOK at what I could potentially buy if I moved to Knottingly, wherever the fuck that is: http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-41052013.html
> 
> Insanity.


mental.


----------



## girasol (Jan 22, 2014)

mrsfran said:


> I'm bringing my child up in London with no plans to move out. But this is the one thing that does make me sad - while we do have plenty of green space, it's not rural. By which I mean it's always fenced in and usually next to very busy roads. I can take my child to a lovely big park and she can whizz about on her scooter but I'm always nervous that she's going to go that extra 2 metres out of the gate and wind up on a busy road. You're never far away from traffic and danger.
> 
> Like I said, we have no plans to move out, but if we did it would be to give her some real green space, not a facsimile of it.



Unfortunately that's the reality for a lot of people in the planet, who live in urban areas.  I think we would all love to live in a farm or something like that, but it's not going to happen for most of us.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 22, 2014)

plenty of small to medium towns in the country where you can have urban areas 20 mins bus drive away from ruralsville


----------



## Dan U (Jan 22, 2014)

girasol there is quite a bit of rural council/housing association housing, certainly round here in very Tory Surrey. 

accessing it i am sure is a totally different issue, my local council (Mole Valley) was running a consultation recently on access to Housing. 'Does live locally' was one of the options for how to control access, which is restrictive on many levels.


----------



## girasol (Jan 22, 2014)

mrsfran said:


> LOOK at what I could potentially buy if I moved to Knottingly, wherever the fuck that is: http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-41052013.html
> 
> Insanity.



yeah, but how bored would you be in there? 

I read somewhere a couple of years ago, that if you live near a decent sized green area in London it's almost as good as  living in a smaller town


----------



## girasol (Jan 22, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> plenty of small to medium towns in the country where you can have urban areas 20 mins bus drive away from ruralsville



You can do that in London too, there's a green walk you do around the city, you'd be surprised at how much green space this city has.  Just need to look for it.

edit: sorry I read it the wrong way around   i.e. from London you can get to more rural areas quite easily too.


----------



## cuppa tee (Jan 22, 2014)

didn't someone here post up some evidence saying the fact middle class folks, (swayed by the proliferation of farmers markets, expensive real ale bars and PLU socialising etc etc) are staying in London thus driving up house prices especially around select schools with a knock on effect in areas of urban vibrancy......


----------



## BigMoaner (Jan 22, 2014)

girasol said:


> Unfortunately that's the reality for a lot of people in the planet, who live in urban areas.  I think we would all love to live in a farm or something like that, but it's not going to happen for most of us.


no, i love london and can't wait to see my kid grow in it. i think it's the best place for her. what i am trying to figure out is why nearly everyone i know who is wealthy doesn't agree. these same people who i have heard for years talk up london as if it's superior to all else are all suddenly packing their bags.


----------



## Thora (Jan 22, 2014)

mrsfran said:


> LOOK at what I could potentially buy if I moved to Knottingly, wherever the fuck that is: http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-41052013.html
> 
> Insanity.


If you've got that much to spend you could have this down the road from me http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-42359278.html


----------



## girasol (Jan 22, 2014)

Once we solve the pollution issue then living in cities will became less bad for our health...  Even so, London isn't as polluted as some other big cities.  But there's certainly plenty of room for improvement.  Will happens slowly as old vehicles come off road.


----------



## girasol (Jan 22, 2014)

BigMoaner said:


> no, i love london and can't wait to see my kid grow in it. i think it's the best place for her. what i am trying to figure out is why nearly everyone i know who is wealthy doesn't agree. these same people who i have heard for years talk up london as if it's superior to all else are all suddenly packing their bags.



Dunno mate, I never thought of raising my son anywhere else to be honest.  Both myself and husband have very middle class jobs, but in my office I'm one of the few with a kid who actually lives in London (he's 15 now), the rest have horrendous commutes to get in.

I love London too


----------



## fortyplus (Jan 22, 2014)

When I was a middle-class 20something all my peers had a similar plan. Buy a flat. trade up once or twice to a Victorian terrace. Sell it and buy a mansion in the cuntreh.  It's the property ladder, innit. 
The schools issue was also part of it, and kids being able to play in the fields and forests.  Mostly, it didn't work and they ended up buying a jerry-built  McMansion-mini  in the burbs where the fields have all been turned into private golf courses. 
Many stayed in London and remortgaged with easy credit to build a property portfolio for their pensions.  

While it might have been true that London schools were terrible it no longer is. In terms of results at least they are by some way the best in the land.   

If you were brought up in the sticks, you often want the same for your kids. But being streetwise is, on the whole, a more useful 21st century skill than being able to build a den in the woods  so if had children I'd keep them in London.


----------



## Crispy (Jan 22, 2014)

At pre-natal classes, Sparrow and I find ourselves having to defend our decision to raise our child in London.
But the schools! The crime! (the foreigns, the coloureds)


----------



## moon (Jan 22, 2014)

The rapid influx of wealthy people into London over the past decade or so forced a lot of Londoners to leave due to the increases in house prices etc.
It would be interesting if what you say is true.. where are they going? Where are they working? Who is buying their properties?


----------



## girasol (Jan 22, 2014)

yeah, the schools in London are generally good, some boroughs have more schools than others.  And yeah, housing is ridiculously expensive.


----------



## Dan U (Jan 22, 2014)

Crispy said:


> At pre-natal classes, Sparrow and I find ourselves having to defend our decision to raise our child in London.
> But the schools! The crime! (the foreigns, the coloureds)



surely you are doing those classes with other people who live in London


----------



## fortyplus (Jan 22, 2014)

Crispy said:


> At pre-natal classes, Sparrow and I find ourselves having to defend our decision to raise our child in London.
> But the schools! The crime! (the foreigns, the coloureds)


There's now plenty of hard evidence about how much better London schools now are than outside London.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Jan 22, 2014)

Because they can?


----------



## _angel_ (Jan 22, 2014)

Crispy said:


> At pre-natal classes, Sparrow and I find ourselves having to defend our decision to raise our child in London.
> But the schools! The crime! (the foreigns, the coloureds)


Are these ante natal classes free NHS ones or are they NCT or something. I'm only asking because I never got offered them with #2 #3 but we had something like a bit of a chat with the midwife with the first, that wasn't all breathing exercises like they show you on telly.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Jan 22, 2014)

cuppa tee said:


> didn't someone here post up some evidence saying the fact middle class folks, (swayed by the proliferation of farmers markets, expensive real ale bars and PLU socialising etc etc) are staying in London thus driving up house prices especially around select schools with a knock on effect in areas of urban vibrancy......


 
I think it might have been newbie although I might be wrong. Iirc the argument was based on the Brixton demongraphic - that people aren't now moving out in their 30s the way they used to.


----------



## girasol (Jan 22, 2014)

as for crime, my son has been mugged twice, by other teenagers...  So yeah, there is that, but I'm sure you get violence in smaller places too, if not so many muggings.


----------



## _angel_ (Jan 22, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> plenty of small to medium towns in the country where you can have urban areas 20 mins bus drive away from ruralsville


You can do that in a city too. Leeds is big but you're never far away from some greenery/ more rural area.


----------



## Smick (Jan 22, 2014)

My wife and I were living just outside Dublin until 2008.

I can't think of one area of life that has not been improved by moving to SW2. Especially now we have kids, you start to think of healthcare, education etc.

We bought a 3 bed flat in Tulse Hill (station area, not the hill itself) and my commute costs me £12 a week.

The girl I sit beside in work lives in Essex. Her and her husband commute daily. She walks from the office to Liverpool Street so her ticket is just over 3 grand. He has to get a tube from there so he pays 4 grand. That combined is six months' mortgage for me!

So there is no way I would move out of London. I would have no idea where to go anyway. I moved to London to live in London. Once you start to see Welwyn Garden City or Harlow as an alternative, you might as well have given up on life.

Finally, while my wife and I are what you would describe as white and middle class, and work amongst a lot of similar, my three year old daughter has friends who are of all races. Her best mate is black but her family are culturally British, she goes for playdates with friends' houses who are culturally Nigerian and Ecuadorian too.

It's her integration into a multi cultural society that means most to me. She would never have had that if we had stayed in Ireland.


----------



## Crispy (Jan 22, 2014)

Dan U said:


> surely you are doing those classes with other people who live in London



Yes, but as soon as their babies turn into children, they're outta here, for the most part.

Yeah, it's NCT, so it's a decent sampling of middle class Brixton.


----------



## Rushy (Jan 22, 2014)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> I think it might have been newbie although I might be wrong. Iirc the argument was based on the Brixton demongraphic - that people aren't now moving out in their 30s the way they used to.



Moving in, moving out AND staying put. Is _nothing _beyond these slippery heartless fuckers?!


----------



## Dan U (Jan 22, 2014)

Crispy said:


> Yes, but as soon as their babies turn into children, they're outta here, for the most part.
> 
> Yeah, it's NCT, so it's a decent sampling of middle class Brixton.



We did ours down here in Surrey, one couple were moving down from Crouch End, partly for work, partly to afford a house.


----------



## King Biscuit Time (Jan 22, 2014)

_angel_ said:


> You can do that in a city too. Leeds is big but you're never far away from some greenery/ more rural area.



Standard Sheffield post in this situation.


----------



## _angel_ (Jan 22, 2014)

King Biscuit Time said:


> Standard Sheffield post in this situation.


Yeah Sheffield's another good example. Where my sis was seemed very green but still close to everything. Leeds is good like that, too.


----------



## Smick (Jan 22, 2014)

Crispy said:


> Yes, but as soon as their babies turn into children, they're outta here, for the most part.
> 
> Yeah, it's NCT, so it's a decent sampling of middle class Brixton.


 
NCT is like a social filter. The advice and learning is not a patch on the NHS classes in Dulwich Hospital. All it gives is the opportunity to meet other expectant couples who can afford to spend £400 on something that is free elsewhere.


----------



## _angel_ (Jan 22, 2014)

Smick said:


> NCT is like a social filter. The advice and learning is not a patch on the NHS classes in Dulwich Hospital. All it gives is the opportunity to meet other expectant couples who can afford to spend £400 on something that is free elsewhere.


Well that's something you can get in London that you don't seem to get in Leeds! Also people on the pregnancy thread seemed  shocked we had to pay for the nuchal fold scan privately because at least at the time (2009) Leeds had no scanners for that.


----------



## pinkmonkey (Jan 22, 2014)

ddraig said:


> white flight/miwlwall fans/ignorance


Very true, bollocks is it a white flight - I've seen as many black/asian/whatever/ families move out to the posh Herts village where we have relatives. Before you can say 'property prices' they've fitted right in, baking cupcakes for the fete, entering their chocolate lab in the dog show etc


----------



## pinkmonkey (Jan 22, 2014)

mrsfran said:


> LOOK at what I could potentially buy if I moved to Knottingly, wherever the fuck that is: http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-41052013.html
> 
> Insanity.



That's my home town! My brothers both have families and still live local.

ETA I used to LOVE that house when I was growing up - two mins walk from mums -  I dreamed of living there because of the garden. The limestone walling around the garden is a bit of a liability, though, possibly why it's cheap. But the primary school is two mins away too and is Ofsted outstanding - my nephew goes there . <Gets on phone to mum for a gossip>


----------



## Dexter Deadwood (Jan 22, 2014)

How many examples does one need to generalise?
Two is good but one will do.


----------



## Crispy (Jan 22, 2014)

Smick said:


> NCT is like a social filter. The advice and learning is not a patch on the NHS classes in Dulwich Hospital. All it gives is the opportunity to meet other expectant couples who can afford to spend £400 on something that is free elsewhere.



I am embarrassed to say that I had no idea it cost that much and just let sparrow book it


----------



## happyshopper (Jan 22, 2014)

In answer to the OP's question, it must be the people you know. We're definitely middle-class and have lived in Brixton since before our two daughters, now in their mid-twenties, were born. They both went through the State education system and did well. We're lucky, as we've been able to afford a house with a (small) garden. Both us and our children regard the experience of bringing up children in Brixton as overwhelmingly positive. 

The point is that we were never alone - there have always been other families like us. One of the great assets of Brixton is that it is and always has been socially diverse and that includes people from the middle class.


----------



## trashpony (Jan 22, 2014)

I left London because as a single parent, the only way I could afford to stay was to work full time. Because my overheads are lower now, I don't have to. Plus that dealer/pollution/playing in the street thing


----------



## Crispy (Jan 22, 2014)

Smick said:


> NCT is like a social filter. The advice and learning is not a patch on the NHS classes in Dulwich Hospital. All it gives is the opportunity to meet other expectant couples who can afford to spend £400 on something that is free elsewhere.



I'm embarrassed to say I had no idea it cost that much and just said yes when sparrow said we should do it


----------



## marty21 (Jan 22, 2014)

This isn't a new thing, I moved to London in the late 80s and a load of mates moved up at the time (after graduating) and most left when they had kids, a few stayed but that was mainly because they were Londoners and had support networks up here already. 

Mostly it was house prices and the desire to settle down somewhere nice with their new family.


----------



## cuppa tee (Jan 22, 2014)

Rushy said:


> Moving in, moving out AND staying put. Is _nothing _beyond these slippery heartless fuckers?!



haha, i know you are being flippant but IME there's a lot of truth in that comment.......


----------



## quimcunx (Jan 22, 2014)

marty21 said:


> This isn't a new thing, I moved to London in the late 80s and a load of mates moved up at the time (after graduating) and most left when they had kids, a few stayed but that was *mainly because they were Londoners and had support networks up here already*.
> 
> Mostly it was house prices and the desire to settle down somewhere nice with their new family.



That's a possible reason too. Moving closer to grandparents for babysitting and other invaluable support.


----------



## shakespearegirl (Jan 22, 2014)

In my very middle class Brixton street they are mainly moving out due to space once they've had kids. Small 2 or 3 bedroom houses with very steep stairways aren't that conducive to kids. One of my neighbours has 4 kids and although they'd love to stay in the street they just can't find enough room in the house and with the cost of larger properties in Brixton they will need to move out of the area. 
Its seeming a lot more common now for them to rent them out rather than sell them when they move, so we are ending up with a much higher % of renters in the street than previously. We do seem to be getting groups of the very upper class daddy is paying my rent types


----------



## OvalhouseDB (Jan 22, 2014)

I'm white, middle class, live in SW2 and my child went to a Lambeth Community (i.e non-faith) primary and is now at our nearest Lambeth secondary - a co-ed comp. (non faith).

I have seen close friends and people I met at toddler groups etc move out of London, and also, move out of S London. Money has been a big part, and there was a bit of an exodus as soon as someone needed an extra bedroom. Also when you are forced to stay at home and not spend the milk money on beer, the pull of the city is less attractive - many people just feel more suburban as they grow more mature, perhaps.

But there are also the myths.
1. Moving for good schools. Lambeth schools almost always outstrip the national average, they are continuing to improve and I think you have a better chance of your child attending an ofsted 'Outstanding' school than anywhere else in London, or possibly the country. Or some similiar statistic. It is true that the scramble for places in the admissions process means that not everyone can be sure of a place near by, or any real choice, and that causes anxiety, I have been really chuffed with my son's 2 schools, and they weren't cosy mc enclaves...which brings us to...
2. The demographic. Oh the horror! A high Free School Meals ratio? That will be a well resourced school making the best of the Pupil Premium payments, then! High ESOL? Lots of evidence to show that children who are bi or multi-lingual often have a higher cognitive understanding of language and literacy, but all parents can think is 'they will hold my child back'. Lambeth does not have the kind of community where almost the whole Reception class share the same non-English language and so have less chance of picking up English or integrating with other children.
3. Behaviour...probably criminal! I visit lots of Lambeth schools and have countless Lambeth pupils in our building. They are overwhelmingly polite, considerate, funny, helpful, engaged. The rather scary zero-tolerance heavy discipline structures that secindaries put in place has put an end to the old 'no-go' areas in schools. Of course there are problems, often linked to activities outside schools, and some young people are vulnerable as victims - including being drawn into anti-social behaviour as a survival strategy. There are projects addressing this, including ones by OH, and more needs to be done. However white mc families are the last to be vulnerable to being 'at risk' in this way.

I think London is a great place to bring up children - so many free museums and culture, the Zip card, great parks, King's on our doorstep...

I could go on about this more but I have to go into a meeting.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 22, 2014)

Ax^ said:


> And less children who don't have English as a second language at home


fewer.


----------



## Crispy (Jan 22, 2014)




----------



## xenon (Jan 22, 2014)

CBA reading all this but you realise houses are cheaper because they're in areas with fuck all jobs.

I don't know what the problem is now. First it's people moving into Brixton / London now it's because some of them want to move out.


----------



## Idaho (Jan 22, 2014)

I moved out of London 10 years ago when my son was 1. Traded a 2 bed flat in Finsbury Park for a 4 bed house in Exeter and had change left over to decorate etc. School is a block away. Walk to work. Countryside a 10 minute drive. 

London was great fun as a young man. But I got tired of commuting and the grime and crampedness.


----------



## newbie (Jan 22, 2014)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> I think it might have been newbie although I might be wrong. Iirc the argument was based on the Brixton demongraphic - that people aren't now moving out in their 30s the way they used to.


yes that's about it, a noticeable difference between the 2001 and 2011 census info.  People staying later into middle age reduces churn and pushes up prices... 

but Rushy got it right...


Rushy said:


> Moving in, moving out AND staying put. Is _nothing _beyond these slippery heartless fuckers?!


----------



## xenon (Jan 22, 2014)

BTW people have always moved out of London to raise families. Not all middle class. Look at Essex for example.


----------



## Plumdaff (Jan 22, 2014)

Crispy said:


> At pre-natal classes, Sparrow and I find ourselves having to defend our decision to raise our child in London.
> But the schools! The crime! (the foreigns, the coloureds)



Interesting. Only two out of our group have left. We were one. It was housing and childcare costs in both cases and we both moved to other large cities. I didn't and don't have qualms about the qualities and benefits of inner city schooling. 
I had someone in my NCT class snort at my why I'd been so silly to have a baby in a one bedroom flat. Didn't occur to her that might be quite common.


----------



## marty21 (Jan 22, 2014)

Idaho said:


> I moved out of London 10 years ago when my son was 1. Traded a 2 bed flat in Finsbury Park for a 4 bed house in Exeter and had change left over to decorate etc. School is a block away. Walk to work. Countryside a 10 minute drive.
> 
> London was great fun as a young man. But I got tired of commuting and the grime and crampedness.


I don't have kids but at 48 I still love living in London


----------



## trashpony (Jan 22, 2014)

xenon said:


> BTW people have always moved out of London to raise families. Not all middle class. Look at Essex for example.


And Kent


----------



## Dan U (Jan 22, 2014)

Crispy said:


> I am embarrassed to say that I had no idea it cost that much and just let sparrow book it



It's much less than that. Well ours was.


----------



## Manter (Jan 22, 2014)

mrsfran said:


> LOOK at what I could potentially buy if I moved to Knottingly, wherever the fuck that is: http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-41052013.html
> 
> Insanity.


It's near Goole 

aqua will explain


----------



## aqua (Jan 22, 2014)

Manter said:


> It's near Goole
> 
> aqua will explain


longdog lived in Goole. He left to move to hull as an improvement . That says it all really.


----------



## pinkmonkey (Jan 22, 2014)

Yes he took the piss out of me for being from Knottingley.


----------



## Smick (Jan 22, 2014)

Dan U said:


> It's much less than that. Well ours was.


I'm sure ours was somewhere round that, but to be honest it was my wife who organised it. It was in the days of the pregnancy grant so we just stumped it up.

We were living in Kellett Rd at the time so they sent us to a class up on Herne Hill, mostly attended by Dulwich types.

We met some very decent people through it, many of whom we keep in touch with four years later.

I do maintain though that it's more of a social event than pre natal education.


----------



## longdog (Jan 22, 2014)

aqua said:


> longdog lived in Goole. He left to move to hull as an improvement . That says it all really.



Me and my ex went to Knottingly once to look a a second-hand fish tank.

There were bull-terriers in the house and a dead badger in the garden


----------



## pinkmonkey (Jan 22, 2014)

Slightly better than the dead dog my dad discovered behind a sofa he'd just moved, when he was measuring up a council house in the seventies.

'Oooh I wondered where our Prince had gone he'd been missing for a week.'


----------



## mxh (Jan 22, 2014)

Let these middle class families move to nice leafy villages in Surrey near the Thames, where there children can swim to School.


----------



## Manter (Jan 22, 2014)

pinkmonkey said:


> Yes he took the piss out of me for being from Knottingley.


((pinkmonkey ))


----------



## Manter (Jan 22, 2014)

pinkmonkey said:


> Yes he took the piss out of me for being from Knottingley.


One of our closest friends is from Aldbrough. His father has never left, even to go to Hull....


----------



## aqua (Jan 22, 2014)

Manter said:


> One of our closest friends is from Aldbrough. His father has never left, even to go to Hull....




When I worked in Lincolnshire that was remarkably common. Not leaving the village


----------



## weltweit (Jan 22, 2014)

I suppose I am middle class, well I was once, I don't want to live in London, or work there either, just too many people, too busy and dare I say it perhaps too dangerous.


----------



## marty21 (Jan 22, 2014)

aqua said:


> When I worked in Lincolnshire that was remarkably common. Not leaving the village


I used to work with someone in Camden, who was in her 20s and had never been out of Camden! She's older now and has ventured out - and lives in Barnet.


----------



## Living life7 (Jan 22, 2014)

BigMoaner said:


> Since having a child, the realities of London life have hit me. first a disclaimer, my child will be going to a school that is nearly 80% non-white british (we are white british), and is a school which is generally swerved by the white middle classes...
> 
> ...all of the middle class parents i know in my area (SE27 and the surrounding) all say they want to move out. Some snicker in my face at the very idea of raising their kids here until secondary schooling age. To be honest, as it is a deeply personal thing, I never push them about it - but a few of the answers I get are "we wouldn't feel safe letting them out to play in the street", and "we want better schools".
> 
> ...


I am black and I like my home.
But if I could i would relocate far away
From south london.
A lot of black people feel the way I do.
But most would not open say this.


----------



## Smick (Jan 22, 2014)

Living life7 said:


> I am black and I like my home.
> But if I could i would relocate far away
> From south london.
> A lot of black people feel the way I do.
> But most would not open say this.


 
Where would you like to go, or what would you like to change about where you are now?

I hate to generalise based on race, but black people I have met, which has been through the church I occasionally attend or my daughter's education, seem to be even more in to community than Irish people and love their community here. But maybe that is just the black people I associate with; those with young kids and those who go to church.

If I won the Euromillions, I would buy one of the massive houses on the road I currently live on.


----------



## ChrisFilter (Jan 22, 2014)

We moved out for cheaper house prices, better schools, better access to countryside and to be somewhere more like where we had happy childhoods. Going back to what we know. 

The lack of diversity was a concern rather than a motivators. It's more mixed than I expected, happily. 

Selfishly, we were also done with London. I love it, and I'm pleased I still work there and get to experience it, but it's not what I want in my spare time. 

Couldn't be happier with the move. For us, there's so much more to do on our doorstep than when we lived in London. Almost never use the car anymore, have joined the cycling club, have a proper local, supporting the local football team, etc. Everything we'd hoped for.


----------



## DietCokeGirl (Jan 22, 2014)

Grass is always greener, etc. - in London, I long for green space, and peace, and not to have to use the tube....and outside the city I pine for better transport, the museums and events, better opening hours, etc.


----------



## marty21 (Jan 22, 2014)

I have green space on my doorstep - Hackney/Walthamstow Marshes, Epping Forest is a short drive away


----------



## weltweit (Jan 22, 2014)

marty21 said:


> I have green space on my doorstep - Hackney/Walthamstow Marshes, Epping Forest is a short drive away


I lived near Epping Forest a few years ago. Enjoyed that. Especially there is a large herd of deer you can see if you know where and when to go. Amazing given the M25 etc that is there now.


----------



## colacubes (Jan 22, 2014)

ChrisFilter said:


> <snip>
> Couldn't be happier with the move. For us, there's so much more to do on our doorstep than when we lived in London. Almost never use the car anymore, have joined the cycling club, have a proper local, supporting the local football team, etc. Everything we'd hoped for.



Without wishing to play devil's advocate, is that not maybe more to do with where you lived?  All those things are available very close to home where I am in Brixton.  And I got rid of my car within 3 months of moving to London.


----------



## wiskey (Jan 22, 2014)

We moved out because it was too hot, smelly, crowded, sweaty, vast, busy and generally London for the country boy derv is. 

I grew up in brixton. I often regret leaving, I miss bumping into school friends or knowing what that shop was twenty years ago and all the other stuff you know when you live somewhere for ages. 

Sometimes I wish I could come back but I couldn't afford it, I couldn't afford childcare for starters, let alone rent. And London is difficult and prohibitive if you have no money in a way that Bristol isn't.


----------



## Smick (Jan 22, 2014)

Yeah. We did 2,000 miles a year in our car last year, including trips to Bristol and Middlesbrough so we don't need a car at all in London. I'm considering joining the Dulwich running club that goes to Brockwell Parkrun and I am trying to round up a mate or two to go to Dulwich Hamlet.


----------



## weltweit (Jan 22, 2014)

What I dislike most about London is the crush of the tube commute.
Probably no one likes it, but compared to that I will take my 20-30 minute relaxed drive any time.


----------



## Winot (Jan 22, 2014)

weltweit said:


> What I dislike most about London is the crush of the tube commute.
> Probably no one likes it, but compared to that I will take my 20-30 minute relaxed drive any time.



I love living in London but would love it a lot less if I had to use the tube everyday. As it is I love cycling (though I realise it's not for everyone). 

London is also a lot easier to live in if you are fortunate enough to be well off.


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Jan 22, 2014)

Thora said:


> If you've got that much to spend you could have this down the road from me http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-42359278.html



This is what that sort of dosh buys where I live (I actually come from Birkenhead, but lived in London for about 15 years before selling up and moving back home)

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-26111426.html


----------



## Smick (Jan 22, 2014)

Bernie Gunther said:


> This is what that sort of dosh buys where I live (I actually come from Birkenhead, but lived in London for about 15 years before selling up and moving back home)
> 
> http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-26111426.html


 
Surely there must be decent opportunity to earn money similar to London but in Liverpool.


----------



## Manter (Jan 23, 2014)

Bernie Gunther said:


> This is what that sort of dosh buys where I live (I actually come from Birkenhead, but lived in London for about 15 years before selling up and moving back home)
> 
> http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-26111426.html


Picture # 9 is really, really odd


----------



## quimcunx (Jan 23, 2014)

BigMoaner have you considered that you might smell?


----------



## Manter (Jan 23, 2014)

wiskey said:


> Sometimes I wish I could come back but I couldn't afford it, I couldn't afford childcare for starters, let alone rent. And London is difficult and prohibitive if you have no money in a way that Bristol isn't.


Yup, I've done London broke and I've done London solvent, and broke was brutal in a way, say, Leeds just wasn't. Though I'd struggle to explain precisely why as I was in my early 20s at the time and childcare, transport etc wasn't an issue.... But it certainly felt much worse and more difficult here than there


----------



## girasol (Jan 23, 2014)

Winot said:


> I love living in London but would love it a lot less if I had to use the tube everyday. As it is I love cycling (though I realise it's not for everyone).
> 
> London is also a lot easier to live in if you are fortunate enough to be well off.



Yeah, I used to hate the tube and have been cycling for last three years.  I do sort of miss that reading time I used to have though...  So it was a trade off when I took up cycling. I still prefer cycling.

My first 10 years or so in London were done in 'poverty' (I never felt poor though) and some of it on benefits, but even then there were enough free/cheap things to do, it never felt terrible, even when I had to stick bubble wrap around our windows because the house was so damned cold...  Also 4 of those years were in higher education and you expect not to be loaded when you are a student anyway.  The last 12 years have been more prosperous...


----------



## gabi (Jan 23, 2014)

I'm torn. I love London and do miss it. But every time I speak to my mates about moving back they remind me of the fucking tube and the weather and tell me id regret moving back. its the middle of winter where i am and its still 20 degrees, which is a summers day in london.

Upsides of london - mainly its the people actually. i like the grimness of the British. I find it weirdly uplifting. I will be back soon methinks.


----------



## Winot (Jan 23, 2014)

There just could be a connection between


gabi said:


> the grimness of the British


 
and



gabi said:


> the fucking tube and the weather


----------



## Greebo (Jan 23, 2014)

DietCokeGirl said:


> Grass is always greener, etc. - in London, I long for green space, and peace, and not to have to use the tube....and outside the city I pine for better transport, the museums and events, better opening hours, etc.


I'm in South London, hardly ever use the tube (buses are nearer and more plentiful) and have a large park plus a lot of grass and woodland outside my back windows.  BTW this is a council estate.


----------



## leanderman (Jan 23, 2014)

Crispy said:


> At pre-natal classes, Sparrow and I find ourselves having to defend our decision to raise our child in London.
> But the schools! The crime! (the foreigns, the coloureds)


NCT?


----------



## leanderman (Jan 23, 2014)

Idaho said:


> I moved out of London 10 years ago when my son was 1. Traded a 2 bed flat in Finsbury Park for a 4 bed house in Exeter and had change left over to decorate etc. School is a block away. Walk to work. Countryside a 10 minute drive.
> 
> London was great fun as a young man. But I got tired of commuting and the grime and crampedness.



I left Exeter to come to Brixton!


----------



## leanderman (Jan 23, 2014)

I love London. For example ...

Leaving home at midday yesterday, I was able to buy some trainers in Oxford Street, go to a Photographers' Gallery exhibition, have a 45-minute swim at the Rec and still be in time to pick up my kids from school at 3.15pm.


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Jan 23, 2014)

On the other hand London is rubbish for astronomy


----------



## RedDragon (Jan 23, 2014)

> *why do all the middle class people i know tend to want to move out of London?*


Because the poor can't afford to?


----------



## ChrisFilter (Jan 23, 2014)

colacubes said:


> Without wishing to play devil's advocate, is that not maybe more to do with where you lived?  All those things are available very close to home where I am in Brixton.  And I got rid of my car within 3 months of moving to London.



Absolutely, but I couldn't afford to love somewhere that offered those things. 

Plus, I can see the stars at night here. Feels pretty special when I'm off for a run. 

Horses for courses, and I respect other's preferences, I'm just glad we've found what seems to be the right thing for us.


----------



## leanderman (Jan 23, 2014)

ChrisFilter said:


> Absolutely, but I couldn't afford to love somewhere that offered those things.
> 
> Plus, I can see the stars at night here. Feels pretty special when I'm off for a run.
> 
> Horses for courses, and I respect other's preferences, I'm just glad we've found what seems to be the right thing for us.



Exactly. I'd happily ride both courses.

But now I feel I have gotten to know a few people locally I could not be bothered to start again elsewhere. Plus, kids in school.


----------



## Manter (Jan 23, 2014)

marty21 said:


> I have green space on my doorstep - Hackney/Walthamstow Marshes, Epping Forest is a short drive away


yeah, but with kids there is green space and green space.  Decent sized gardens are really useful as kids can work off some energy in a confined, safe space while you get on.  When my brother was about 9 he could happily kick a football or hit a tennis ball against the side of the house for hours at a time, rain or shine- few people can spend a couple of hours a day in the park, but you wouldn't want to send young kids off for hours unsupervised. Having that sort of green space is good, _as well as_ parks and so on.

I know quite a few people who have moved out- we have no plans to, though you never know.  All cited size of houses/gardens, cost of childcare and the far that you can get into work as quickly from outside London as from zone 2 or 3.  No one has mentioned crime or ethnic mix to us- in fact a few were concerned that the areas they were moving to would be too mono-cultural (partly because one family is Tamil/Nepalese and one Nigerian/French and they didn't want their children to be the only non-whites in the new school).

I love London and now we've made friends and settled in our little corner of it, I'd hate to leave.  But I can see why many people who have the option to, do.


----------



## leanderman (Jan 23, 2014)

Manter said:


> yeah, but with kids there is green space and green space.  Decent sized gardens are really useful as kids can work off some energy in a confined, safe space while you get on.



Could do with a proper garden, but, other than that, there is not much I would change.

I especially like the fact our kids' extracurricular activities - swimming, ballet etc - are ones they can walk to


----------



## RedDragon (Jan 23, 2014)

There seems to be an increase in older ex-residents moving back into the centre, mainly to enjoy the cultural riches in retirement.


----------



## gaijingirl (Jan 23, 2014)

RedDragon said:


> There seems to be an increase in older ex-residents moving back into the centre, mainly to enjoy the cultural riches in retirement.



I know a retired couple who've done this.  Sold the family home in the southern reaches of Croydon (ie Surrey) and moved to a flat in Pimlico.


----------



## Manter (Jan 23, 2014)

Ditto. 

Makes sense, really- the retire and move to the country version means you end up old and infirm and in a house too big for you miles away from the support and services you need. My parents live a 35 minute brisk walk from the nearest shop, which is ridiculous as they move into their 70s. Whereas if you 'downsize' into a city you can enjoy all the cultural stuff while you're still active, but it's a future proof option. (As long as the flat has a lift  )


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Jan 23, 2014)

The city is a lot better for older people than the country IMO. It was a huge thing for my grandparents when they weren't able to drive any more (and for my parents who had to tell them). They were suddenly dependent on my parents driving them around everywhere and if they hadn't been there they'd really have struggled. They'd have been able to keep their independence for longer with decent public transport..


----------



## Manter (Jan 23, 2014)

Absolutely. And I live nowhere near my parents so when they can't drive (or climb the stairs!) they'll be in real trouble...


----------



## TruXta (Jan 23, 2014)

If you're retired and can't afford a driver then frankly what do you deserve?


----------



## leanderman (Jan 23, 2014)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> The city is a lot better for older people than the country IMO. It was a huge thing for my grandparents when they weren't able to drive any more (and for my parents who had to tell them). They were suddenly dependent on my parents driving them around everywhere and if they hadn't been there they'd really have struggled. They'd have been able to keep their independence for longer with decent public transport..



Yes. On losing his licence, my dad was heartbroken, and stranded, and died soon after.


----------



## Gramsci (Jan 24, 2014)

mrsfran said:


> I'm bringing my child up in London with no plans to move out. But this is the one thing that does make me sad - while we do have plenty of green space, it's not rural. By which I mean it's always fenced in and usually next to very busy roads. I can take my child to a lovely big park and she can whizz about on her scooter but I'm always nervous that she's going to go that extra 2 metres out of the gate and wind up on a busy road. You're never far away from traffic and danger.
> 
> Like I said, we have no plans to move out, but if we did it would be to give her some real green space, not a facsimile of it.



London is one of the greenest world cities. Most large international cities have very little greenery. I am talking about garden square and treelined streets as well as parks.

The issue of roads is do to the way traffic has been allowed to have priority. This could be changed. Some Councils are bringing in 20 mph speed limits for example.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Jan 24, 2014)

I wish the middle classes would move out of London instead of moving round here and buying all the fucking properties up with mummy and daddy's money. 

Cunts.


----------



## Smick (Jan 24, 2014)

Gramsci said:


> London is one of the greenest world cities. Most large international cities have very little greenery. I am talking about garden square and treelined streets as well as parks.
> 
> .


 
If you go to the top of Gipsy Hill and look Northward, it's a sea of trees and greenery until you reach the skyscrapers in the City. I have been to Tokyo, New York. There is hardly a tree to be seen.


----------



## Manter (Jan 24, 2014)

Smick said:


> If you go to the top of Gipsy Hill and look Northward, it's a sea of trees and greenery until you reach the skyscrapers in the City. I have been to Tokyo, New York. There is hardly a tree to be seen.


It is very green, it's true. I travel quite a bit for work (or did pre baby) and the difference IMO is not parks (though we do have more than most cities) but as Gramsci says, streets with trees down then, garden squares, some quite 'suburban' streets with gardens pretty close to the centre, garden squares etc- it's all the little bits if green that add up. 

But it's still a different scale of green to the country, or even the proper suburbs. You don't experience the seasons here in the way you do outside cities, and that is quite exciting for children, and something I'll miss being able to give Mantito because we live here. If you had a rural childhood yourself I can imagine why you'd leave London to provide something similar


----------



## leanderman (Jan 24, 2014)

Manter said:


> It is very green, it's true. I travel quite a bit for work (or did pre baby) and the difference IMO is not parks (though we do have more than most cities) but as Gramsci says, streets with trees down then, garden squares, some quite 'suburban' streets with gardens pretty close to the centre, garden squares etc- it's all the little bits if green that add up.
> 
> But it's still a different scale of green to the country, or even the proper suburbs. You don't experience the seasons here in the way you do outside cities, and that is quite exciting for children, and something I'll miss being able to give Mantito because we live here. If you had a rural childhood yourself I can imagine why you'd leave London to provide something similar



For me, it's Brixton or life on a farm (where I grew up).

Nothing in between. No compromises!


----------



## Manter (Jan 24, 2014)

leanderman said:


> For me, it's Brixton or life on a farm (where I grew up).
> 
> Nothing in between. No compromises!


I'm similar. I've vetoed all the urban sprawl and the Home Counties. We move to the Peak District (just outside Sheffield- I have the house chosen for our imaginary life and everything) or we stay in London . But ask me again in a few years


----------



## Winot (Jan 24, 2014)

Proud to say that although my children can't separate the sheep from the goats, they can spot a taxi at 200 metres. 

Fuck the countryside.


----------



## purenarcotic (Jan 24, 2014)

Manter said:


> It is very green, it's true. I travel quite a bit for work (or did pre baby) and the difference IMO is not parks (though we do have more than most cities) but as Gramsci says, streets with trees down then, garden squares, some quite 'suburban' streets with gardens pretty close to the centre, garden squares etc- it's all the little bits if green that add up.
> 
> But it's still a different scale of green to the country, or even the proper suburbs. You don't experience the seasons here in the way you do outside cities, and that is quite exciting for children, and something I'll miss being able to give Mantito because we live here. If you had a rural childhood yourself I can imagine why you'd leave London to provide something similar



I don't get the whole rural thing.  Even as a kid, I always liked cities and the thought of living in the countryside quite literally makes me shudder.  

I find it a bit weird how we all assume kids want to romp about in fields and climb trees, some of us couldn't have imagined anything worse.


----------



## Manter (Jan 24, 2014)

purenarcotic said:


> I don't get the whole rural thing.  Even as a kid, I always liked cities and the thought of living in the countryside quite literally makes me shudder.
> 
> I find it a bit weird how we all assume kids want to romp about in fields and climb trees, some of us couldn't have imagined anything worse.


its not whether they want to, its whether we think its good for them


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Jan 24, 2014)

purenarcotic said:


> I find it a bit weird how we all assume kids want to romp about in fields and climb trees, some of us couldn't have imagined anything worse.


 
That whole thing is a bit of an idealised view of the coutryside anyway. Where I grew up the fields weren't for romping about in. They were either full of crops or ploughed up and difficult to walk over. Obviously there were areas kids could play but none of them were bigger than Crystal Palace Park which is about a minute from where we live now.

Similarly with the traffic people mention - my parents live down what people would consider a little country lane which is very quiet. At the end of that lane though is a road that traffic travels down at well over 60 mph, all day. Which isn't something you get most places in the city.


----------



## Smick (Jan 24, 2014)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> That whole thing is a bit of an idealised view of the coutryside anyway. Where I grew up the fields weren't for romping about in. They were either full of crops or ploughed up and difficult to walk over. Obviously there were areas kids could play but none of them were bigger than Crystal Palace Park which is about a minute from where we live now.
> 
> Similarly with the traffic people mention - my parents live down what people would consider a little country lane which is very quiet. At the end of that lane though is a road that traffic travels down at well over 60 mph, all day. Which isn't something you get most places in the city.


 
On top of all that, Crystal Palace park has a wonderful urban farm with all the animals a kid could want to see. My daughter is three and loves the alpacas. I didn't know what an alpaca was until she taught me.

I grew up in the Belfast suburbs. My brother moved out to the countryside, in to a rented cottage. There were some sheep farmers nearby and a lamb got caught in the barb wire and died. My brother found out who owned the field and went to warn the farmer about the hazard to the lambs. The farmer couldn't give a damn. Apparently sheep cost less at market than repairing a fence. The lamb hung around for a week, crows picked out its eyes.

People in the city have an idea of the country which doesn't exist. Farms are just big green factories and farm animals are just inventory. I'm with Alan Partridge on this one.


----------



## Ms T (Jan 24, 2014)

purenarcotic said:


> I don't get the whole rural thing.  Even as a kid, I always liked cities and the thought of living in the countryside quite literally makes me shudder.
> 
> I find it a bit weird how we all assume kids want to romp about in fields and climb trees, some of us couldn't have imagined anything worse.



I was gutted when my parents moved from Sheffield to a village in the Lincolnshire countryside when I was sixteen.  Goodbye cheap buses and independence.  I still dislike the bloody place, more than twenty years later.


----------



## Belushi (Jan 24, 2014)

The country is great when you're small but a living death for teenagers.


----------



## TruXta (Jan 24, 2014)

Belushi said:


> The country is great when you're small but a living death for teenagers.


OTOH - so many places to sneak off for sex/drinking/drugs. Bit shit in the winter mind you.


----------



## Thora (Jan 24, 2014)

Parks are good, but not sure they beat an actual garden attached to your house that you can kick your kids out into.


----------



## Manter (Jan 24, 2014)

Thora said:


> Parks are good, but not sure they beat an actual garden attached to your house that you can kick your kids out into.


That's what I was trying and failing to say earlier


----------



## leanderman (Jan 24, 2014)

Farming proved a lonely and muddy life. Still, those that have clung on have seen the value of their land soar. Partly because the rich have twigged that it does not attract inheritance tax.


----------



## leanderman (Jan 24, 2014)

TruXta said:


> OTOH - so many places to sneak off for sex/drinking/drugs. Bit shit in the winter mind you.



Winters were horrific. Looking after cows in barns is no fun; sheep in waterlogged fields even worse.


----------



## OvalhouseDB (Jan 24, 2014)

I grew up running wild and free on the banks of the river Trent and the outdoor pursuits we enjoyed most are very unlikely to be allowed by today's parents. They include going off all day on our bikes on our own from the age of 8 onwards and:
Playing on the banks of a fast deep flowing brook
Ditto, where it met the Trent in a particularly lethal stretch for currents
Playing in a disused flooded quarry
Playing on the railway line, lying on the tracks, listening for oncoming coal trains, arguing over whether putting pennies on the line was treason
Giggling at the men who liked to expose pink wobbly bits in their trousers in the bushes where we built our dens
Setting fire to the waiting room of an unstaffed rural railway station in case Russian spies discovered evidence of our counter intelligence activities.

A contemporary parent's view of rural idyll?


----------



## TruXta (Jan 24, 2014)

leanderman said:


> Winters were horrific. Looking after cows in barns is no fun; sheep in waterlogged fields even worse.


Thank fuck we didn't have any animals on the farm I grew up on. Apart from pets I mean.


----------



## boohoo (Jan 24, 2014)

Living by Crown Point, I am a couple minutes away from Norwood Grove, that leads into Streatham Common and five minutes away from Biggin wood. When I lived in Clapton, I was five minutes from the River Lea and all the marshes/ nature reserves around there. I feel I've had the best of both world with these two places.


----------



## Boudicca (Jan 24, 2014)

I was brought up in a very rural area and up to the age of about 12-13, it was a pretty good life.  We spent a lot of time outdoors & unsupervised, climbing trees, fishing etc.  This part of my life I see as infinitely better than a childhood in central London.  It's not about green spaces, it's about freedom to roam and play.

However, it all went wrong when I became a bookish teenager and my only social options were joining the Young Farmers or the biker gangs. There was virtually no public transport, nothing to do and no escape.

I headed to London post university and have been here for over 30 years. It's suited me well, I've done stuff that really interested me, enjoyed myself, made money, and met interesting people.  But yes, I am now looking at leaving, hopefully to somewhere sunny for a while.  I think this will be healthier for me, because I hibernate in the winter and London doesn't seem to have so much to offer me at the moment.

But when I get really old and sick, I'm going to come home (because London is home) and buy one of those posh flats in Greenwich, with views over the Thames, and Waitrose on the ground floor.


----------



## Thora (Jan 24, 2014)

Manter said:


> That's what I was trying and failing to say earlier


I'm essentially quite lazy, so while a trip out somewhere (even just across the road) is fine, sometimes, especially in summer, just being able to open the back door and keep a vague eye on the paddling pool has been amazing.  The garden has made moving from an interesting area to quite a dull one worth it tbh.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 24, 2014)

Boudicca said:


> I was brought up in a very rural area and up to the age of about 12-13, it was a pretty good life.  We spent a lot of time outdoors & unsupervised, climbing trees, fishing etc.  This part of my life I see as infinitely better than a childhood in central London.  It's not about green spaces, it's about freedom to roam and play.
> 
> However, it all went wrong when I became a bookish teenager and my only social options were joining the Young Farmers or the biker gangs. There was virtually no public transport, nothing to do and no escape.
> 
> ...


when you're auld and sick you won't be able to afford anywhere in london.


----------



## Boudicca (Jan 24, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> when you're auld and sick you won't be able to afford anywhere in london.


Ok, Hull then.

Do they have Waitrose in Hull though?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 24, 2014)

Boudicca said:


> Ok, Hull then.
> 
> Do they have Waitrose in Hull though?


yes http://www.waitrose.com/bf_home/bf/697.html


----------



## Manter (Jan 24, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> yes http://www.waitrose.com/bf_home/bf/697.html


That's not Hull! It's the East Riding.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 24, 2014)

Manter said:


> That's not Hull! It's the East Riding.


have you looked on a map?


----------



## Manter (Jan 24, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> have you looked on a map?


Sorry to be a pedant... I know Hull quite well. It's a village, technically, in the East Riding of Yorkshire. It's out towards Cottingham/Hessle way- Outside Hull city boundary. 
Hull is unusual in that most of the suburbs and villages round it aren't part of Hull. It's one of the reasons it is consistently at the bottom of income, educational attainment, unemployment etc charts- not because it's worse than other cities, but because the leavening effects of wealthy suburbs and commuter villages are excluded from all the stats


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 24, 2014)

Manter said:


> Sorry to be a pedant... I know Hull quite well. It's a village, technically, in the East Riding of Yorkshire. It's out towards Cottingham/Hessle way- Outside Hull city boundary.
> Hull is unusual in that most of the suburbs and villages round it aren't part of Hull. It's one of the reasons it is consistently at the bottom of income, educational attainment, unemployment etc charts- not because it's worse than other cities, but because the leavening effects of wealthy suburbs and commuter villages are excluded from all the stats


i don't think you are sorry to be a pedant. btw hull is in the east riding.


----------



## Manter (Jan 24, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> i don't think you are sorry to be a pedant.


As it happens, I am. But you only have my word for it, and I'm just a stranger on the internet. 

But a stranger who lives with a proud Hull native


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 24, 2014)

Manter said:


> As it happens, I am. But you only have my word for it, and I'm just a stranger on the internet.
> 
> But a stranger who lives with a proud Hull native


and as i say, hull's in the east riding.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jan 24, 2014)

I'd like to leave London. I've done my stint here and have fallen out of love with it.


----------



## Manter (Jan 24, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> and as i say, hull's in the east riding.


It is. But there isn't a waitrose in Hull.

But if Boudicca did move to Willerby I'd visit her


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 24, 2014)

Manter said:


> It is. But there isn't a waitrose in Hull.
> 
> But if Boudicca did move to Willerby I'd visit her


what were you on about above:


Manter said:


> That's not Hull! It's the East Riding.


----------



## Manter (Jan 24, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> what were you on about above:


The waitrose is not in hull. It's Willerby, in the East Riding of Yorkshire, outside hull. Hull is a city, the waitrose is not in the city. Willerby is a village, the waitrose is in the village. Both the city and the village are colloquially referred to as being in the East Riding, though Hull is a separate unitary authority and the Riding unitary authority is administered from Beverley. The answer to the question about whether there is a Waitrose in Hull is no- there is a waitrose nearby, in Willerby, in the East Riding. 

Which is incidentally very nice. Willerby, I mean, not Waitrose


----------



## teuchter (Jan 24, 2014)

mrsfran said:


> I'm bringing my child up in London with no plans to move out. But this is the one thing that does make me sad - while we do have plenty of green space, it's not rural. By which I mean it's always fenced in and usually next to very busy roads. I can take my child to a lovely big park and she can whizz about on her scooter but I'm always nervous that she's going to go that extra 2 metres out of the gate and wind up on a busy road. You're never far away from traffic and danger.
> 
> Like I said, we have no plans to move out, but if we did it would be to give her some real green space, not a facsimile of it.



I grew up in the countryside in the north of Scotland.

However, our house was next to an A road. Not a busy A road like you might expect in the south of England but what traffic was on it would tend to be travelling at 50 or 60mph or worse. At least a couple of our cats got killed on it.

I wonder whether there's actually more danger of being hurt on the road in London compared to the country. Especially in the "country" in the more populated parts of the UK where not only is the traffic travelling fast but there's a lot of it, crammed onto roads witout footpaths and so on.

Also, while there's not easy access to anything very wild from London, it's not really all that hard to get out into some quite nice countryside within an hour or two on the train.

I have no kids or any plans to have them, but despite having grown up in a rural area myself I wouldn't rule out bringing up kids in London. They would get bi-yearly rainy miserable walking holidays to the Highlands to stop them being softy southerners though.


----------



## OvalhouseDB (Jan 24, 2014)

My parents live in an isolated rural place - an hours drive from the nearest hospital is not ideal when infirmity takes hold.

It isn't just white families who move though. Price rises (to buy and rent) affect everyone. I knew several families with children or young teens who moved in the early 90s when all the Yardie and cocaine wars stuff was going on - the beemers with blacked out windows cruising the streets and a few very nasty incidents. More recently, a girl who came to OH on a reparation project, having got into trouble as a young teen, was whisked to a more suburban part of S London by her mum as soon as possible to get her away from the circles within which she was at risk - and she is thriving, just finishing a very good degree. Families who have moved to Purley and Croydon the escape postcode and gang issues.
People move for all sorts of reasons.


----------



## Manter (Jan 24, 2014)

teuchter said:


> I have no kids or any plans to have them, but despite having grown up in a rural area myself I wouldn't rule out bringing up kids in London. They would get bi-yearly rainy miserable walking holidays to the Highlands to stop them being softy southerners though.


 the Northerner is planning those too, to toughen up the boy ((my 5 month old))

He's also trying to figure out how he can develop a Yorkshire accent growing up in Brixton


----------



## Idaho (Jan 24, 2014)

krtek a houby said:


> I'd like to leave London. I've done my stint here and have fallen out of love with it.


That is how I felt. Fed up with the grime, cramped up all the time with people who's default setting was hostility. I need a lot of space round me to be happy. 

I never miss the "culture" as like 99.9% of Londoners, I never did any of that in my five years there.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Jan 24, 2014)

Manter said:


> its not whether they want to, its whether we think its good for them



are you related to calvin's dad?


----------



## Boudicca (Jan 24, 2014)

Manter said:


> The waitrose is not in hull. It's Willerby, in the East Riding of Yorkshire, outside hull. Hull is a city, the waitrose is not in the city. Willerby is a village, the waitrose is in the village. Both the city and the village are colloquially referred to as being in the East Riding, though Hull is a separate unitary authority and the Riding unitary authority is administered from Beverley. The answer to the question about whether there is a Waitrose in Hull is no- there is a waitrose nearby, in Willerby, in the East Riding.
> 
> Which is incidentally very nice. Willerby, I mean, not Waitrose


I picked Hull as there is a lot of love for the place on urban.  But being on the doorstep of the Waitrose is more important than whether it is in Hull or not.


----------



## shakespearegirl (Jan 24, 2014)

I'm split between loving London and heading towards wanting to leave. If Mr Shakes mum wasn't living in Surrey and fairly dependent on him to sort a lot of her financial stuff out for her, I think we'd be off... 
On one hand I still like living in Brixton, have a lovely house in a very nice community. London is pretty much the best place in the world for both of our careers. Great friends. 
But, the time and stress involved in earning a living here is increasing. Higher expectations from bosses (him) and clients (me) mean longer hours and more stress. The work life balance is becoming a bit hard to handle. We probably don't take as much advantage of the things we used to really enjoy about London like gigs. 
Weirdly, I have an inkling to move to Vancouver despite never visiting


----------



## teuchter (Jan 24, 2014)

Idaho said:


> cramped up all the time with people who's default setting was hostility.



I feel that this accusation often aimed at London is just nonsense. In every house I've lived in in London, the neighbours have been perfectly freindly and willing to engage. Maybe I've just been lucky. But I am familiar with plenty of rural situations with hostile neighbours. A widespread get-orf-my-land mentality. People who go everywhere by car and never use public transport.


----------



## fractionMan (Jan 24, 2014)

London is grim.  So grim I'm glad my parents moved away.  Even Plymouth is better.


----------



## TruXta (Jan 24, 2014)

teuchter said:


> I grew up in the countryside in the north of Scotland.
> 
> However, our house was next to an A road. Not a busy A road like you might expect in the south of England but what traffic was on it would tend to be travelling at 50 or 60mph or worse. At least a couple of our cats got killed on it.
> 
> ...


http://www.rospa.com/roadsafety/adviceandinformation/highway/rural_roads.aspx



> More deaths occur on rural roads than on urban ones. In 2010, there were 1,046 fatal accidents on rural roads compared to over 572 on urban roads.1 The number of deaths on rural roads has also decreased at a slower rate than deaths on urban roads.
> 
> The number of serious and slight injury collisions is higher in urban areas; in 2010 there were 98,550 on urban roads and 49,264 on rural roads. These figures suggest that while the number of collisions is higher in urban areas there is a greater chance of a collision resulting in death on rural roads.


----------



## cuppa tee (Jan 24, 2014)

Manter said:


> He's also trying to figure out how he can develop a Yorkshire accent growing up in Brixton



You could always advertise for an_ au pair_ in the Yorkshire Post


----------



## Winot (Jan 24, 2014)

boohoo said:


> Living by Crown Point, I am a couple minutes away from Norwood Grove, that leads into Streatham Common and five minutes away from Biggin wood. When I lived in Clapton, I was five minutes from the River Lea and all the marshes/ nature reserves around there. I feel I've had the best of both world with these two places.


 
Reminds me of Bill Bryson in 'Notes from a Small Island':



> The best part of Underground travel is that you never actually see the places above you. You have to imagine them. In other cities station names are unimaginative and mundane: Lexington Avenue, Potsdammerplatz, Third Street South. But in London the names sound sylvan and beckoning: Stamford Brook, Turnham Green, Bromley-by-Bow, Maida Vale, Drayton Park. That isn't a city up there, it's a Jane Austen novel. It's easy to imagine that you are shuttling about under a semi-mythic city from some golden, pre-industrial age. Swiss Cottage ceases to be a busy road junction and becomes instead a gingerbread dwelling in the midst of the great oak forest known as St John's Wood. Chalk Farm is an open space of fields where cheerful peasants in brown smocks cut and gather crops of chalk. Blackfriars is full of cowled and chanting monks, Oxford Circus has its big top, Barking is a dangerous place overrun with packs of wild dogs, Theydon Bois is a community of industrious Huguenot weavers, White City is a walled and turreted elysium built of the most dazzling ivory, and Holland Park is full of windmills.


----------



## cuppa tee (Jan 24, 2014)

apart from the roads there is a lot more recreational violence in provincial towns than in London ime
and the only time i have been shot at just for a laugh was by a load of braying toffs who were enjoying a shooting party on a hillside in rural Wiltshire


----------



## Manter (Jan 24, 2014)

Puddy_Tat said:


> are you related to calvin's dad?


Busted


----------



## leanderman (Jan 24, 2014)

shakespearegirl said:


> I'm split between loving London and heading towards wanting to leave. If Mr Shakes mum wasn't living in Surrey and fairly dependent on him to sort a lot of her financial stuff out for her, I think we'd be off...
> On one hand I still like living in Brixton, have a lovely house in a very nice community. London is pretty much the best place in the world for both of our careers. Great friends.
> But, the time and stress involved in earning a living here is increasing. Higher expectations from bosses (him) and clients (me) mean longer hours and more stress. The work life balance is becoming a bit hard to handle. We probably don't take as much advantage of the things we used to really enjoy about London like gigs.
> Weirdly, I have an inkling to move to Vancouver despite never visiting



We feel the same way at times - but are determined to hold out.


----------



## quimcunx (Jan 24, 2014)

fractionMan said:


> London is grim.  So grim I'm glad my parents moved away.  Even Plymouth is better.



 
C'mon.  It's not really fair to judge a whole city on the basis one night a week lodging at mine. It's not all as shit.


----------



## RedDragon (Jan 24, 2014)

fractionMan said:


> London is grim.  So grim I'm glad my parents moved away.  Even Plymouth is better.


That's absolute madness, I've been to Plymouth.


----------



## Idaho (Jan 24, 2014)

fractionMan said:


> London is grim.  So grim I'm glad my parents moved away.  Even Plymouth is better.


Whoa! Plymouth? Let's not get hysterical.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jan 24, 2014)

Idaho said:


> That is how I felt. Fed up with the grime, cramped up all the time with people who's default setting was hostility. I need a lot of space round me to be happy.
> 
> I never miss the "culture" as like 99.9% of Londoners, I never did any of that in my five years there.


 
I get that, sure. Sometimes the hostility rubs off on you and it can taint your outlook. Personally, I try to put it down to a bad day but it's all down to your outlook at the time. I've had a great 15 years, overall but I'm just jaded with it. A bout of random drinking/sexing can lighten the load, on occasion.


----------



## shakespearegirl (Jan 24, 2014)

teuchter said:


> I feel that this accusation often aimed at London is just nonsense. In every house I've lived in in London, the neighbours have been perfectly freindly and willing to engage. Maybe I've just been lucky.
> 
> I agree. I remember when I moved to London 20 years ago and was warned about how unfriendly everyone would be and no-one would ever talk to you. I've found it to be totally the opposite. As long as you are open and friendly, people generally behave the same way.


----------



## trashpony (Jan 24, 2014)

OvalhouseDB said:


> I grew up running wild and free on the banks of the river Trent and the outdoor pursuits we enjoyed most are very unlikely to be allowed by today's parents. They include going off all day on our bikes on our own from the age of 8 onwards and:
> Playing on the banks of a fast deep flowing brook
> Ditto, where it met the Trent in a particularly lethal stretch for currents
> Playing in a disused flooded quarry
> ...


My childhood was rather like this. It's a miracle so many children survived  

I also suspect if children nowadays were sent off on their own from the age of 8, someone would report you to social services. Having said that, one thing I like about living in a smaller place is the ability to give children a bit more freedom than is possible in cities. The roads are a lot quieter here and I know pretty much every single person on my street


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 24, 2014)

Smick said:


> If you go to the top of Gipsy Hill and look Northward, it's a sea of trees and greenery until you reach the skyscrapers in the City. I have been to Tokyo, New York. There is hardly a tree to be seen.



I think this is why I love Berlin almost as much as I love London - open green spaces everywhere.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 24, 2014)

Winot said:


> Proud to say that although my children can't separate the sheep from the goats, they can spot a taxi at 200 metres.



have their eyes tested.  They're obviously grossly longsighted! 



> Fuck the countryside.



The countryside is fine by me.

It's the people who live there that invariably boil my piss!


----------



## ffsear (Jan 24, 2014)

Having grown up in Croydon,   I'll happily live anywhere that's not Croydon.


----------



## artyfarty (Jan 24, 2014)

I grew up in the countryside, then ten years in London, then twenty years in the countryside again.
Now back in London for the last five years. 
The countryside's over rated. It's muddy, largely without culture and the people are cliquey.
Some of the inhabitants of the village my kids live in stare at you as you pass by, with their mouths slightly open. That's apparently because I've got long hair and dont wear body warmers. Wanna get laughed at in public? Go into the village pub wearing a beret.
Those that don't stare are too busy shooting things or riding horses chasing foxes.
You can keep it.


----------



## leanderman (Jan 24, 2014)

artyfarty said:


> I grew up in the countryside, then ten years in London, then twenty years in the countryside again.
> Now back in London for the last five years.
> The countryside's over rated. It's muddy, largely without culture and the people are cliquey.
> Some of the inhabitants of the village my kids live in stare at you as you pass by, with their mouths slightly open. That's apparently because I've got long hair and dont wear body warmers. Wanna get laughed at in public? Go into the village pub wearing a beret.
> ...



True: everyone in the countryside votes UKIP, owns at least one dog and drives a 4x4. Nightmarish.


----------



## weltweit (Jan 24, 2014)

artyfarty said:


> I grew up in the countryside, then ten years in London, then twenty years in the countryside again.
> Now back in London for the last five years.
> The countryside's over rated. It's muddy, largely without culture and the people are cliquey.
> Some of the inhabitants of the village my kids live in stare at you as you pass by, with their mouths slightly open. That's apparently because I've got long hair and dont wear body warmers. Wanna get laughed at in public? Go into the village pub wearing a beret.
> ...


Well, if you will wear a beret!! ??


----------



## weltweit (Jan 24, 2014)

I grew up in the countryside. My best buddies, one was a farmers kid and the other lived about 5 miles away through the lanes. We got up to all sorts in the country, and as soon as I was trusted I was cycling between friends houses and into the local town to the cinema etc. On my 17th I got my first motorbike and then could travel far and wide including to that odd place you call London  ...

Yes in the country you have to make your own entertainment. If you just stay home all that will happen is :


THE GRASS WILL CONTINUE TO GROW


----------



## OvalhouseDB (Jan 24, 2014)

trashpony said:


> My childhood was rather like this. It's a miracle so many children survived
> 
> I also suspect if children nowadays were sent off on their own from the age of 8, someone would report you to social services. Having said that, one thing I like about living in a smaller place is the ability to give children a bit more freedom than is possible in cities. The roads are a lot quieter here and I know pretty much every single person on my street


 
I think that is far more common in smaller places, yes, but not impossible in London. Of all the places I have lived in round here - Effra Rd, Mayall Rd, Leander Rd and now over the border in Streatham, 3 have had street parties and there is a strong sense of people knowing each other. Where I live now the primary school is small and almost everyone goes, so all families tend to recognise each other. That also means that the teens are known by many people on the street- and again a big proportion of local kids all go to the closest secondary. Older kids in our road pro-actively volunteered to walk with my son home from an after school club that finished after dark  because they know him form the street party. Most kids are in the small local park without parents from about 8 onwards - until 12 when teen on teen stuff has made it not comfortable. I think Brixton has a very friendly sense of community, and I love it that I never walk through Brixton without bumping into a few people I know - just like being where my parents live.

But with more exhaust fumes. And noise.


----------



## Idaho (Jan 24, 2014)

ffsear said:


> Having grown up in Croydon,   I'll happily live anywhere that's not Croydon.


Me too, and I didn't grow up in Croydon.


----------



## leanderman (Jan 24, 2014)

OvalhouseDB said:


> I think that is far more common in smaller places, yes, but not impossible in London. Of all the places I have lived in round here - Effra Rd, Mayall Rd, Leander Rd and now over the border in Streatham, 3 have had street parties and there is a strong sense of people knowing each other. Where I live now the primary school is small and almost everyone goes, so all families tend to recognise each other. That also means that the teens are known by many people on the street- and again a big proportion of local kids all go to the closest secondary. Older kids in our road pro-actively volunteered to walk with my son home from an after school club that finished after dark  because they know him form the street party. Most kids are in the small local park without parents from about 8 onwards - until 12 when teen on teen stuff has made it not comfortable. I think Brixton has a very friendly sense of community, and I love it that I never walk through Brixton without bumping into a few people I know - just like being where my parents live.
> 
> But with more exhaust fumes. And noise.



I like the sound of where you live.


----------



## Gramsci (Jan 24, 2014)

Ms T said:


> I was gutted when my parents moved from Sheffield to a village in the Lincolnshire countryside when I was sixteen.  Goodbye cheap buses and independence.  I still dislike the bloody place, more than twenty years later.



I grew up in Plymouth and then we moved to edge of Dartmoor. Liked Dartmoor but not the conservative nature of country life.

Plymouth was a fairly liberal place. Always different from rest of Devon going back to English Civil war when it held out under siege by rest of Royalist Devon. Which I am proud of. Siege of Plymouth is little known heroic defence by outnumbered poorly armed Parliamentarians.



> Plymouth is a town built on the scene of bloodbaths and killing fields, yet few know the true extent of Plymouth’s loss during the Civil War over 350 years ago.





> The people of Plymouth signed a solemn covenant to fight to the last man



Charles the second built a large citadel with guns pointing out onto Plymouth just in case. Never forgave them.

Countryside in Devon was home to the most right wing Tories then and now. Also the wealthy "Grockles" who had second homes in Devon or retired there. As some posters have pointed out some urban dwellers have romanticised view of countryside.


----------



## weltweit (Jan 24, 2014)

Gramsci said:


> .. Countryside in Devon was home to the most right wing Tories then and now. Also the wealthy "Grockles" who had second homes in Devon or retired there. As some posters have pointed out some urban dwellers have romanticised view of countryside.


I grew up in the west country.

Incomers and retiriees with money were always a problem.

Pricing locals out of houses and then usually objecting to any development (like a local supermarket perhaps) which might make life easier for the locals because it did not conform to what their view of what the countryside should be.


----------



## gaijingirl (Jan 24, 2014)

OvalhouseDB said:


> I think that is far more common in smaller places, yes, but not impossible in London. Of all the places I have lived in round here - Effra Rd, Mayall Rd, Leander Rd and now over the border in Streatham, 3 have had street parties and there is a strong sense of people knowing each other. Where I live now the primary school is small and almost everyone goes, so all families tend to recognise each other. That also means that the teens are known by many people on the street- and again a big proportion of local kids all go to the closest secondary. Older kids in our road pro-actively volunteered to walk with my son home from an after school club that finished after dark  because they know him form the street party. Most kids are in the small local park without parents from about 8 onwards - until 12 when teen on teen stuff has made it not comfortable. I think Brixton has a very friendly sense of community, and I love it that I never walk through Brixton without bumping into a few people I know - just like being where my parents live.
> 
> But with more exhaust fumes. And noise.



very similar experience here.. off-Acre Lane, St Matthew's Road, Tulse Hill estate and now Tulse Hill proper.  We walk out our door and my older daughter instantly starts saying hello to passers-by on their way to her school (which is on our street).  We know our neighbours etc.  It's very very rarely that we go out and don't bump into someone we know.  That's a hard thing to give up.  We love it.


----------



## leanderman (Jan 24, 2014)

Gramsci said:


> I grew up in Plymouth and then we moved to edge of Dartmoor. Liked Dartmoor but not the conservative nature of country life.
> 
> Plymouth was a fairly liberal place. Always different from rest of Devon going back to English Civil war when it held out under siege by rest of Royalist Devon. Which I am proud of. Siege of Plymouth is little known heroic defence by outnumbered poorly armed Parliamentarians.
> 
> ...



Interesting civil war stuff. However, Charles Darwin despised Plymouth above all places. And he was right about everything!


----------



## leanderman (Jan 24, 2014)

weltweit said:


> I grew up in the west country.
> 
> Incomers and retirees with money were always a problem.



Part I grew up in (Bude/Holsworthy) is so forlorn, windswept and forgotten this was not a problem


----------



## alfajobrob (Jan 24, 2014)

Idaho said:


> Me too, and I didn't grow up in Croydon.



Where was your happy childhood then?

Mine was Bexleyheath...that was before all the dirty scummer's moved in and made it a tip.


----------



## gaijingirl (Jan 24, 2014)

alfajobrob said:


> Where was your happy childhood then?
> 
> Mine was Bexleyheath...before all the scummers moved in.



Crook Log!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Idaho (Jan 24, 2014)

Gramsci said:


> Plymouth was a fairly liberal place. Always different from rest of Devon going back to English Civil war when it held out under siege by rest of Royalist Devon. Which I am proud of. Siege of Plymouth is little known heroic defence by outnumbered poorly armed Parliamentarians.



Ahem... Exeter?


----------



## Idaho (Jan 24, 2014)

alfajobrob said:


> Where was your childhood then?
> 
> Mine was Bexleyheath...before all the scummers moved in.


I was pretty lucky. I grew up in suburban Brighton.


----------



## Idaho (Jan 24, 2014)

weltweit said:


> I grew up in the west country.
> 
> Incomers and retiriees with money were always a problem.
> 
> Pricing locals out of houses and then usually objecting to any development (like a local supermarket perhaps) which might make life easier for the locals because it did not conform to what their view of what the countryside should be.


Humans travel about for different reasons. And when they do there is tension on a scale of muttering and curtain twitching all the way up to genocide. Best to just accept that things change and stuff is sometimes unfair.


----------



## alfajobrob (Jan 24, 2014)

Idaho said:


> I was pretty lucky. I grew up in suburban Brighton.



Sounds ok, B/heath wasn't exactly hardcore and I grew up on a reasonable road.......shithole now though.


----------



## spanglechick (Jan 24, 2014)

alfajobrob said:


> Where was your happy childhood then?
> 
> Mine was Bexleyheath...that was before all the dirty scummer's moved in and made it a tip.


I was born in 74 and grew up in bexleyheath, and also bought my first flat there in the nineties.  it's always been a shite heap.  "Essex en Sud". a bizarrely white stronghold of upper working class with pretensions of grandeur, Hyacinth Bucket-style.  Spiritual home of the mail and the express.  Heartland of the boris voter.  Fucking grammar schools. Twas ever thus.


----------



## alfajobrob (Jan 25, 2014)

Most of my family moved out in the 70's from Elephant etc...no


gaijingirl said:


> Crook Log!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



Danson Park as a kid was great....swimming, tennis, p&p, the rock gardens....secret places and a lot of fun.

It was good going up Danson Rd Carol singing as kid at the start of December and Penny for a guy with menaces.......made's loads of cash pretending to wash there cars as well....I also remember not so nice stuff we used to do to the residents though


----------



## alfajobrob (Jan 25, 2014)

spanglechick said:


> I was born in 74 and grew up in bexleyheath, and also bought my first flat there in the nineties.  it's always been a shite heap.  "Essex en Sud". a bizarrely white stronghold of upper working class with pretensions of grandeur, Hyacinth Bucket-style.  Spiritual home of the mail and the express.  Heartland of the boris voter.  Fucking grammar schools. Twas ever thus.



My parents had seen schooling in South London at the time and it was shite...my dad worked for the GLC then ILEA as a electrician in S London schools for 20 years so he did have an idea.

Brothers went to Dartford G and I went to B/Heath School at same age as you or older I'd imagine?...I guess you were St Cath's?


----------



## gaijingirl (Jan 25, 2014)

alfajobrob said:


> Most of my family moved out in the 70's from Elephant etc...no



They used to do these "under 18 nightclubs" in the mid-80s that were pretty much the dodgiest club I've been to..


----------



## fractionMan (Jan 25, 2014)

I like how a lot of this thread is "it's either london or the countryside" as if everywhere that's not london is some yokel infested mudbath


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Jan 25, 2014)

There's a lot to be said for the peri-urban fringe of one of the other major cities (in my case Liverpool.)

You still have shops and public transport and you can still get to a proper city in under half an hour.

Probably faster than you can get from Colindale to Covent Garden ...


----------



## marty21 (Jan 25, 2014)

fractionMan said:


> I like how a lot of this thread is "it's either london or the countryside" as if everywhere that's not london is some yokel infested mudbath


I'm a yokel in London


----------



## spanglechick (Jan 25, 2014)

alfajobrob said:


> My parents had seen schooling in South London at the time and it was shite...my dad worked for the GLC then ILEA as a electrician in S London schools for 20 years so he did have an idea.
> 
> Brothers went to Dartford G and I went to B/Heath School at same age as you or older I'd imagine?...I guess you were St Cath's?


nope - though there's an urbanite who was.  chis and sid, me.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Jan 25, 2014)

marty21 said:


> I'm a yokel in London



You don't quite count as an infestation though.


----------



## marty21 (Jan 25, 2014)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> You don't quite count as an infestation though.


I need to up my game


----------



## Gramsci (Jan 25, 2014)

Idaho said:


> Humans travel about for different reasons. And when they do there is tension on a scale of muttering and curtain twitching all the way up to genocide. Best to just accept that things change and stuff is sometimes unfair.



The rich "Grockles" were, and still are, a longstanding problem in Devon and Cornwall.

Priced out people with there second homes.

Yes things change and the less well off find they have trouble finding affordable housing. Not sort of changes I am just going to accept.

As weltweit implies the rich incomers are the types who would oppose new affordable housing that would spoil, as they see it, there idyllic rural retreat.


----------



## Gramsci (Jan 25, 2014)

Idaho said:


> Ahem... Exeter?



Oh yes. Always forget about Exeter. 

Remember at one point Plymouth Council tried to get there own County- "Tamarside" I think was the proposed name- with Plymouth as head of it. Not Exeter.


----------



## Manter (Jan 25, 2014)

fractionMan said:


> I like how a lot of this thread is "it's either london or the countryside" as if everywhere that's not london is some yokel infested mudbath


I was going to start talking about suburbs, central business district and twilight zone, but I thought I'd sound like a GCSE geography teacher...


----------



## BigMoaner (Jan 25, 2014)

interesting responses, cheers.

gangs worry me - six stabbed in 10 days in croydon reported today. what can you do though? it's not strong enough reason to move. if london got its head round the gang problem, it would improve the quality of life of so, so many people - hundreds of thousands, probably. even in big, giant western cities, kids should be able to play in the streets etc without fear of "post code beefs" and toher such bollox.

the idea of moving to a town  or village fills me with dread. i have friends who moved to whitstable. they know everyone in the town it seems. would do my nut in. i like the anonymity of london. i think if i ever got bored of london, it'd take me just a few weeks to get cabin fever in some small kentish village


----------



## leanderman (Jan 25, 2014)

BigMoaner said:


> interesting responses, cheers.
> 
> gangs worry me - six stabbed in 10 days in croydon reported today. what can you do though? it's not strong enough reason to move. if london got its head round the gang problem, it would improve the quality of life of so, so many people - hundreds of thousands, probably. even in big, giant western cities, kids should be able to play in the streets etc without fear of "post code beefs" and toher such bollox.
> 
> the idea of moving to a town  or village fills me with dread. i have friends who moved to whitstable. they know everyone in the town it seems. would do my nut in. i like the anonymity of london. i think if i ever got bored of london, it'd take me just a few weeks to get cabin fever in some small kentish village



And there it is: you like the anonymity of London, but the flip side might be less community and, arguably, more anti-social stuff and crime.


----------



## BigMoaner (Jan 25, 2014)

leanderman said:


> And there it is: you like the anonymity of London, but the flip side might be less community and, arguably, more anti-social stuff and crime.



I am part of a community. I know all my neighbours, i have friends and family here all over. But that is different to being part of a village. I don't think you can blame gang crime (which was what i mentioned) on lack of community, especially when estates in london do seem to have a strong sense of community.


----------



## Belushi (Jan 25, 2014)

I grew up in a village, you can't just move in and expect to be a part of things ime; I think that's why so many people move to the country and end up disappointed.


----------



## Smick (Jan 25, 2014)

Are gangs not an opt-in kind of thing?

If you don't want to be murdered by a gang, don't join a rival gang.

There are so many more decent kids out there than murderers.


----------



## weltweit (Jan 25, 2014)

Gramsci said:


> As weltweit implies the rich incomers are the types who would oppose new affordable housing that would spoil, as they see it, there idyllic rural retreat.


Thanks Gramsci,

Yes, I know a wealthy artist who moved to the countryside and then campaigned against the opening of an out of town supermarket to bring cheap and convenient shopping to the locals. His complaint was it could kill the high street, which it could have. But the council had already installed a bypass which routed passing traffic away from the centre and anyhow the centre had appalling limited and expensive parking which made shopping there a costly and annoying experience.

The out of town supermarket had abundant free parking and low prices, the locals wanted it and do use it in their masses. It seemed that he, the artist, wanted his romantic idea of the town to remain but that basically meant - no progress!


----------



## marty21 (Jan 25, 2014)

We went on Holiday in Sherringham, Norfolk once, it promoted itself as a great shopping destination as it had no chains , just local businesses - tbh a KFC would have improved the shopping experience there


----------



## Belushi (Jan 25, 2014)

I couldn't afford to do all my shopping at lovely little independent shops and farmers markets and I'm not hard up.


----------



## marty21 (Jan 25, 2014)

Belushi said:


> I couldn't afford to do all my shopping at lovely little independent shops and farmers markets and I'm not hard up.


we get all our fruit and veg from an independent grocer in Clapton - he is cheaper than the supermarkets


----------



## OvalhouseDB (Jan 25, 2014)

marty21 said:


> We went on Holiday in Sherringham, Norfolk once, it promoted itself as a great shopping destination as it had no chains , just local businesses - tbh a KFC would have improved the shopping experience there


 It's got a big Tesco now - you should go back !


----------



## Miss-Shelf (Jan 26, 2014)

Bernie Gunther said:


> There's a lot to be said for the peri-urban fringe of one of the other major cities (in my case Liverpool.)
> 
> You still have shops and public transport and you can still get to a proper city in under half an hour.
> 
> Probably faster than you can get from Colindale to Covent Garden ...


where are you based? 
I think that about some other north/north west places like manchester or sheffield -you can live in some greatcountryside and still access those cities v quickly


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 26, 2014)

Manter said:


> I was going to start talking about suburbs, central business district and twilight zone, but I thought I'd sound like a GCSE geography teacher...



You would only sound like a geography teacher if you mentioned oxbow lak....

Doh!


----------



## Manter (Jan 26, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> You would only sound like a geography teacher if you mentioned oxbow lak....
> 
> Doh!


Pyroclastic flows! Glaciated valleys! Hanging chads!


----------



## marty21 (Jan 26, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> You would only sound like a geography teacher if you mentioned oxbow lak....
> 
> Doh!


and drumlins


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 26, 2014)

Smick said:


> Are gangs not an opt-in kind of thing?
> 
> If you don't want to be murdered by a gang, don't join a rival gang.



For some kids, the choice of whether to join a gang or not is Hobson's choice.  If you join, you're safe from the preators in your own area, but not safe from predators from other areas.  If you don't join, you're not even safe from the predators in your own area.



> There are so many more decent kids out there than murderers.



Even in gangs, that's the case.  Being a gang member doesn't automatically make you a murderer, or even a criminal.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 26, 2014)

Manter said:


> Pyroclastic flows! Glaciated valleys! Hanging chads!





BTW, hanging chads would come under geo*politics* rather than plain geography, I reckon!


----------



## Rushy (Jan 26, 2014)

Manter said:


> Pyroclastic flows! Glaciated valleys! Hanging chads!



Clints and grykes, dammit.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 26, 2014)

marty21 said:


> We went on Holiday in Sherringham, Norfolk once, it promoted itself as a great shopping destination as it had no chains , just local businesses - tbh a KFC would have improved the shopping experience there



Poor marty.
There's some fantastic fish 'n' chip shops in Sheringham, too!


----------



## Manter (Jan 26, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> BTW, hanging chads would come under geo*politics* rather than plain geography, I reckon!


I know! I was in Florida during that election....But they sound like they ought to be something cooler than they are...


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 26, 2014)

Manter said:


> I know! I was in Florida during that election....But they sound like they ought to be something cooler than they are...



Frat boys dangling like strange fruit from campus trees?


----------



## Agent Sparrow (Jan 26, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> You would only sound like a geography teacher if you mentioned oxbow lak....
> 
> Doh!


GCSE geography has tainted me so I can't look at an oxbow lake without thinking "oxbow lake".

On the subject of the thread, well I ain't planning on moving anywhere, if I can possibly help it. Certainly not the sodding countryside. Too much risk of finding oxbow lakes


----------



## teuchter (Jan 27, 2014)

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...outh-private-sector-jobs-london?commentpage=5



> One in three 22-30 year olds leaving their hometowns end up with Oyster cards and Boris as their mayor.
> 
> They don't always stay in the capital. Alexandra Jones, chief executive of the thinktank Centre for Cities, says that in their 30s many of those attracted by the bright lights of the capital tire of London and move out when they want to start families.


----------



## pinkmonkey (Jan 27, 2014)

fractionMan said:


> I like how a lot of this thread is "it's either london or the countryside" as if everywhere that's not london is some yokel infested mudbath


I live in the yokel infested mudbath also known as Tottenham Marsh.


----------



## leanderman (Jan 27, 2014)

teuchter said:


> http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...outh-private-sector-jobs-london?commentpage=5



Fascinating. So, generally, London sucks people in from points north and west and spews them out south and east


----------



## teuchter (Jan 27, 2014)

It's quite a striking map, isnt it.


----------



## Manter (Jan 27, 2014)

teuchter said:


> http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...outh-private-sector-jobs-london?commentpage=5


That's fascinating.


----------



## Dan U (Jan 27, 2014)

we need to do something about all these people coming to take our jobs.

London for the Londonish

eta - I like the randomness of a statistically relevant amount of people moving to Coventry and Mansfield to crop up on this as well


----------



## Hellsbells (Jan 27, 2014)

I'd like to move out of London but I definitely don't want to move to a village in the countryside. I'd eitiher want to move to another city (where property is affordable!) or somewhere more rural, but on the outskirts of a city. I like peace and quiet and space and all that, but I'd get bored easily & i'd hate everyone knowing my business and not being able to be annoymous when I felt like it.


----------



## King Biscuit Time (Jan 27, 2014)

It would be more interesting to see one (or two) maps that show the influx and efflux from London separately. You can't tell from this one whether 1000 people have upped sticks and moved from Nowheresville, UK to London or whether 100,000 have moved to London and 99,000 moved back.


----------



## Winot (Jan 27, 2014)

leanderman said:


> Fascinating. So, generally, London sucks people in from points north and west and spews them out south and east


 
Interesting. I'm guessing it is not the same demographic moving out to Southend/Chatham/Hastings as is moving out to Brighton/Worthing.


----------



## 5t3IIa (Jan 27, 2014)

King Biscuit Time said:


> It would be more interesting to see one (or two) maps that show the influx and efflux from London separately. You can't tell from this one whether 1000 people have upped sticks and moved from Nowheresville, UK to London or whether 100,000 have moved to London and 99,000 moved back.



There was something about this on Today this morning. How people come to London from the 'North' and don't go back, they go to Hastings  Linked on the previous page. Ahem excuse me.


----------



## teuchter (Jan 27, 2014)

King Biscuit Time said:


> It would be more interesting to see one (or two) maps that show the influx and efflux from London separately. You can't tell from this one whether 1000 people have upped sticks and moved from Nowheresville, UK to London or whether 100,000 have moved to London and 99,000 moved back.


More internal migration mapping fun here:

http://www.neighbourhood.statistics.gov.uk/HTMLDocs/dvc25/index.html#00AY,nat,to


----------



## King Biscuit Time (Jan 27, 2014)

teuchter said:


> More internal migration mapping fun here:
> 
> http://www.neighbourhood.statistics.gov.uk/HTMLDocs/dvc25/index.html#00AY,nat,to


Whoa! - That's fun


----------



## ChrisFilter (Jan 27, 2014)

fractionMan said:


> I like how a lot of this thread is "it's either london or the countryside" as if everywhere that's not london is some yokel infested mudbath



Yeah, this tickled me too. We've moved to a reasonably big town with its own everything. Big museums aside, I've not yet found it lacking anything that London has other than multiple versions of things.

I think this thread conclusively proves that... different people like different things


----------



## leanderman (Jan 27, 2014)

ChrisFilter said:


> Yeah, this tickled me too. We've moved to a reasonably big town with its own everything. Big museums aside, I've not yet found it lacking anything that London has other than multiple versions of things.
> 
> I think this thread conclusively proves that... different people like different things



Or that 'every snipe praises its own bog' - my favourite Khrushchev saying.

I have liked just about wherever I have lived. And do now.


----------



## teuchter (Jan 27, 2014)

ChrisFilter said:


> Yeah, this tickled me too. We've moved to a reasonably big town with its own everything. Big museums aside, I've not yet found it lacking anything that London has other than multiple versions of things.


I fear you are kidding yourself.

Its not like London has 100 identical things to choose from rather than 5 identical things in a smaller place. The variety and diversity 
of choice in that 100 is vastly greater than in the 5.

I woudn't deny that smaller places have good things that London doesn't. But it's silly to suggest that other cities don't lack anything that London has.


----------



## ChrisFilter (Jan 27, 2014)

teuchter said:


> I fear you are kidding yourself.
> 
> Its not like London has 100 identical things to choose from rather than 5 identical things in a smaller place. The variety and diversity
> of choice in that 100 is vastly greater than in the 5.
> ...



I'm talking about things that appeal to me. I'm not suggesting everything in London has an equivalent in my town ( ) but I appreciate it was poorly worded.


----------



## Manter (Jan 27, 2014)

ChrisFilter said:


> I'm talking about things that appeal to me. I'm not suggesting everything in London has an equivalent in my town ( ) but I appreciate it was poorly worded.


My father in law is convinced there is nothing in London you can't get in Hull


----------



## Smick (Jan 27, 2014)

Manter said:


> My father in law is convinced there is nothing in London you can't get in Hull


 
Yeah, but at what time? Can he get a bus, charged at daytime rate, to an open kebab shop at 4am?


----------



## JTG (Jan 27, 2014)

BigMoaner said:


> the idea of moving to a town  or village fills me with dread. i have friends who moved to whitstable. they know everyone in the town it seems. would do my nut in. i like the anonymity of london. i think if i ever got bored of london, it'd take me just a few weeks to get cabin fever in some small kentish village


You seem to have the bizarre idea that everywhere that isn't London is a small town or village


----------



## JTG (Jan 27, 2014)

Smick said:


> Yeah, but at what time? Can he get a bus, charged at daytime rate, to an open kebab shop at 4am?


London: where people regularly board buses in the middle of the night purely to buy a kebab


----------



## Geri (Jan 27, 2014)

Smick said:


> Yeah, but at what time? Can he get a bus, charged at daytime rate, to an open kebab shop at 4am?


 
Why would he want to?


----------



## JTG (Jan 27, 2014)

Geri said:


> Why would he want to?


London: where the take aways are so far away from your house you need to get a bus to find one


----------



## leanderman (Jan 27, 2014)

teuchter said:


> I fear you are kidding yourself.
> 
> Its not like London has 100 identical things to choose from rather than 5 identical things in a smaller place. The variety and diversity
> of choice in that 100 is vastly greater than in the 5.
> ...



London has lots more to offer. It's just whether you can put up with the downsides.


----------



## teuchter (Jan 27, 2014)

Geri said:


> Why would he want to?


It's not really that hard to think of a situation where it would be useful is it?


----------



## JTG (Jan 27, 2014)

teuchter said:


> It's not really that hard to think of a situation where it would be useful is it?


Yes, visiting a kebab shop many miles from home at 4am


----------



## Manter (Jan 27, 2014)

JTG said:


> Yes, visiting a kebab shop many miles from home at 4am


The Northerner does quite frequently, but tbf it's normally because he's gone to sleep on the nightbus....


----------



## Thora (Jan 27, 2014)

Honestly I have never chosen to leave my house at 4am to find a kebab shop a bus ride away, even when living in London.  Isn't a 4am kebab something you get on the way home?  Surely Iceland must produce frozen kebabs for just this situation.


----------



## JTG (Jan 27, 2014)

At least in London you can get the bus to Iceland though


----------



## spanglechick (Jan 27, 2014)

I'm aware of what an arsehole it makes me sound, but on the subject of fast food, living anywhere that i couldn't get delivery sushi/japanese would make me pretty sad.  or not sad...  i dunno.  Jealous of people who could get it.


----------



## teuchter (Jan 27, 2014)

Thora said:


> Honestly I have never chosen to leave my house at 4am to find a kebab shop a bus ride away, even when living in London.  Isn't a 4am kebab something you get on the way home?



Can't you see that in a situation where you want to get home at 4am and fancy a kebab on the way, it's quite handy to have an affordable means of transport that allows you to do exactly that?


----------



## Thora (Jan 27, 2014)

Why would you get a bus _to_ a kebab shop though?  Surely you'd buy the kebab as you fall out of wherever you are and then take a bus home?  Like people do in every city in the country.


----------



## OvalhouseDB (Jan 27, 2014)

In Hull, what would be keeping you out til 4am?


----------



## marty21 (Jan 27, 2014)

JTG said:


> London: where people regularly board buses in the middle of the night purely to buy a kebab


I can walk to several kebab shops at 4am


----------



## marty21 (Jan 27, 2014)

they aren't all open though


----------



## marty21 (Jan 27, 2014)

not even sure if any of them are open at 4am

maybe one  of them - 

I could   walk to  a 24 hour Polish Supermarket at 4am - but I really can't be arsed.


----------



## ChrisFilter (Jan 27, 2014)

spanglechick said:


> I'm aware of what an arsehole it makes me sound, but on the subject of fast food, living anywhere that i couldn't get delivery sushi/japanese would make me pretty sad.  or not sad...  i dunno.  Jealous of people who could get it.



Doesn't make you sound an arsehole. I feel the same.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Jan 27, 2014)

when my mum was priced out of london many years ago and ended up in a small village in lincolnshire, one of the removal men said to me "nice place this, no pakis for miles".   "yes, i said, and nowhere to get a pint of milk or some fags after 6pm either".

the conversation ended there.  i don't think either of us really understood the other.


----------



## JTG (Jan 27, 2014)

marty21 said:


> not even sure if any of them are open at 4am
> 
> maybe one  of them -
> 
> I could   walk to  a 24 hour Polish Supermarket at 4am - but I really can't be arsed.


((((Londoners))))


----------



## Smick (Jan 27, 2014)

Geri said:


> Why would he want to?


 
To be fair, I tend to call in when I get off the bus, not get the bus specifically for the kebab.

When I lived in Dublin, I had to leave the pub on a Friday night at 22.15 to get the train home. Next option was an expensive night bus at 1am or else a €30 taxi.

I love living in a 24hr city now.


----------



## Geri (Jan 27, 2014)

Bristol is a 24 hour city, we just don't bang on about it all the time. I have everything I need within walking distance. The only thing that could improve it would be the sea.


----------



## Agent Sparrow (Jan 27, 2014)

Tbf, after being used to London I couldn't go back to Brighton now, and that's a fairly decent city for its small size. So if I did ever leave London it would have to be for another big city, and not counting house prices being cheaper (though in places, not considerably cheaper), not sure what other advantages would be forthcoming. We'd still be in a busy city. At least in London the public transport is pretty amazing (hence why I am still a non driver).


----------



## Manter (Jan 27, 2014)

Geri said:


> Bristol is a 24 hour city, we just don't bang on about it all the time. I have everything I need within walking distance. The only thing that could improve it would be the sea.


Nowhere over here is a 24 hour city IMO. I lived in NYC for a bit and you really can do your grocery shopping or drop off your dry cleaning at 4am.


----------



## Geri (Jan 27, 2014)

Manter said:


> Nowhere over here is a 24 hour city IMO. I lived in NYC for a bit and you really can do your grocery shopping or drop off your dry cleaning at 4am.


 
I have a 24 hour Tesco Extra 10 mins walk away. Granted, I cannot drop off dry cleaning there, but I haven't dry cleaned anything for over 10 years.

Despite living here for 17 years I don't actually think I've been there any later than about 7pm. It's comforting to know that I could though as I have a terrible fear of not having any food in the house.


----------



## Thora (Jan 27, 2014)

I could do my grocery shopping at 4am, but I can't say I have ever wanted to.


----------



## JTG (Jan 27, 2014)

Geri said:


> Bristol is a 24 hour city, we just don't bang on about it all the time. I have everything I need within walking distance. The only thing that could improve it would be the sea.


I have the same 24 hour Tesco within spitting distance of my house as you do. _We don't even have to get the night bus there!!!!!!_

And guess what Londoners? _I'm not even lying about the night bus!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!_

There's a 24 hour shop down Fishponds Road as well. I can buy Buckfast any time of the day or night


----------



## JTG (Jan 27, 2014)

Thora said:


> I could do my grocery shopping at 4am, but I can't say I have ever wanted to.


I work shifts so I suppose it's conceivable I could want to. Mostly I just plan ahead so I don't have to go there at silly o'clock and go home to bed instead


----------



## marty21 (Jan 27, 2014)

JTG said:


> I have the same 24 hour Tesco within spitting distance of my house as you do. _We don't even have to get the night bus there!!!!!!_
> 
> And guess what Londoners? _I'm not even lying about the night bus!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!_
> 
> There's a 24 hour shop down Fishponds Road as well. I can buy Buckfast any time of the day or night


(((((Bristolians)))))


----------



## JTG (Jan 27, 2014)

marty21 said:


> (((((Bristolians)))))


24 hour Tesco marty. Yeah.


----------



## Plumdaff (Jan 27, 2014)

Cardiff public transport is a bit shite but I can see green hills and a castle folly from my house while I eat my Japanese delivery.  It's not for everyone but I like the balance of city and nearby countryside here.


----------



## marty21 (Jan 27, 2014)

JTG said:


> 24 hour Tesco marty. Yeah.


living the dream JTG


----------



## JTG (Jan 27, 2014)

marty21 said:


> living the dream JTG


----------



## colacubes (Jan 27, 2014)

I've got a 24 hours McDonalds 30 seconds walk from my flat.  I win   London is best


----------



## Geri (Jan 27, 2014)

Thora said:


> I could do my grocery shopping at 4am, but I can't say I have ever wanted to.


 
I bet they wouldn't have any salt & pepper french sticks left at that time anyway.


----------



## JTG (Jan 27, 2014)

Plumdaff said:


> Cardiff public transport is a bit shite but I can see green hills and a castle folly from my house while I eat my Japanese delivery.  It's not for everyone but I like the balance of city and nearby countryside here.


Is the countryside at daytime rates? And 24 hours?


----------



## JTG (Jan 27, 2014)

colacubes said:


> I've got a 24 hours McDonalds 30 seconds walk from my flat.  I win   London is best


Fucking metropolitan liberal elites and their 24 hour McDonalds


----------



## colacubes (Jan 27, 2014)

JTG said:


> Fucking metropolitan liberal elites and their 24 hour McDonalds



Fucking right mate.  If I want a fucking McSalad and a cappuccino at 5am I can have one


----------



## Plumdaff (Jan 27, 2014)

JTG said:


> Is the countryside at daytime rates? And 24 hours?


 
Fucking too right. I could go there at 4am. On a bus*, gorging myself on Ginsters from the hipster 24 hour garage. 

*(my 24 hour car)


----------



## gaijingirl (Jan 27, 2014)

Plumdaff said:


> Cardiff public transport is a bit shite but I can see green hills and a castle folly from my house while I eat my Japanese delivery.  It's not for everyone but I like the balance of city and nearby countryside here.



I have to say... Cardiff would be my next choice.  Spent 4 years there - love that city, a very easy place to live.


----------



## JTG (Jan 27, 2014)

colacubes said:


> Fucking right mate.  If I want a fucking McSalad and a cappuccino at 5am I can have one


You can't get your countryside delivered at daytime rates on a Cardiff bus though can you? Eh? Eh?


----------



## colacubes (Jan 27, 2014)

JTG said:


> You can't get your countryside delivered at daytime rates on a Cardiff bus though can you? Eh? Eh?



No.  But my chauffeur will deliver it at just over minimum wage


----------



## JTG (Jan 27, 2014)

colacubes said:


> No.  But my chauffeur will deliver it at just over minimum wage


There you go again, flaunting your privileges 

The pizza shop down the road gets Pakistani 24 hour rolling news. We have troubled yoot too, the London hipsters would love it


----------



## RedDragon (Jan 27, 2014)

whenever I've been in a supermarket at 4am there's so few staff multitasking it takes ages getting served.


----------



## _pH_ (Jan 27, 2014)

JTG said:


> There's a 24 hour shop down Fishponds Road as well. I can buy Buckfast any time of the day or night



I was quite impressed that I could get 2 bottles of Bucky at 10pm on Xmas Day on North St in Ashton. Not for me obviously. Horrible stuff. Though it tasted ok when poured through a wine aerator.


----------



## Greebo (Jan 27, 2014)

marty21 said:


> <snip> I could   walk to  a 24 hour Polish Supermarket at 4am - but I really can't be arsed.


Where the hell is that?  OTOH forget it, if it's open all hours the prices are likely to be horrific.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Jan 27, 2014)

Geri said:


> Bristol is a 24 hour city, we just don't bang on about it all the time. I have everything I need within walking distance. The only thing that could improve it would be the sea.









tbh london could do with improving like that too.


----------



## JTG (Jan 27, 2014)

_pH_ said:


> I was quite impressed that I could get 2 bottles of Bucky at 10pm on Xmas Day on North St in Ashton. Not for me obviously. Horrible stuff. Though it tasted ok when poured through a wine aerator.


You had to spend Christmas in that dump? You poor bastard


----------



## marty21 (Jan 28, 2014)

Greebo said:


> Where the hell is that?  OTOH forget it, if it's open all hours the prices are likely to be horrific.


Corner of Northwold and Upper Clapton Road - only been there a few times - didn't seem that pricy tbh


----------



## Smick (Jan 28, 2014)

Used to be in Belfast that, instead of Bucky, you could get the bottle of Sanatogen tonic wine from the chemist when the offy didn't open until 7 on a Sunday.

If I didn't live in London, and remained in England, Bristol would be my next choice. I've stayed there quite a few times, although always in the city centre.

I don't really know anywhere else I suppose.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 28, 2014)

Smick said:


> Used to be in Belfast that, instead of Bucky, you could get the bottle of Sanatogen tonic wine from the chemist when the offy didn't open until 7 on a Sunday.
> 
> If I didn't live in London, and remained in England, Bristol would be my next choice. I've stayed there quite a few times, although always in the city centre.
> 
> I don't really know anywhere else I suppose.



A Scots mate used to drink a really horrific mixture that was a bottle of Buckfast, mixed with a half bottle of vodka.  By the time he was nearing the bottom of his jug, his normally well-enunciated middle-class Glaswegian accent would have degenerated into an impenetrable Russ Abbott-type "Jimmy" accent, and he'd have mostly lost the use of his legs.


----------



## weltweit (Jan 28, 2014)

Plumdaff said:


> Cardiff public transport is a bit shite but I can see green hills and a castle folly from my house while I eat my Japanese delivery.  It's not for everyone but I like the balance of city and nearby countryside here.


I found Cardiff a really nice balance. I could go out in the centre, watch Bruno fighting Lewis at the Arms Park, shop conveniently, and be out of town in the hills in about 20 minutes.


----------



## Christian Reese (Jan 29, 2014)

Cardiff really is a nice city.


----------



## ska invita (Jan 30, 2014)

_angel_ said:


> Yeah Sheffield's another good example. Where my sis was seemed very green but still close to everything. Leeds is good like that, too.


sheffield is the greenest city in Europe! Or at least it has " more trees per person than any other city in Europe"


----------



## King Biscuit Time (Jan 30, 2014)

ska invita said:


> sheffield is the greenest city in Europe! Or at least it has " more trees per person than any other city in Europe"



Which means in late autumn it's Europe's sludgyiest city. But they keep that quiet.


----------



## Cowley (Jan 30, 2014)

BigMoaner said:


> Since having a child, the realities of London life have hit me. first a disclaimer, my child will be going to a school that is nearly 80% non-white british (we are white british), and is a school which is generally swerved by the white middle classes...
> 
> ...all of the middle class parents i know in my area (SE27 and the surrounding) all say they want to move out. Some snicker in my face at the very idea of raising their kids here until secondary schooling age. To be honest, as it is a deeply personal thing, I never push them about it - but a few of the answers I get are "we wouldn't feel safe letting them out to play in the street", and "we want better schools".
> 
> ...


 
Money is the main driver surely? As in the cost of living, the cost of property, lack of space etc etc.

There isnt a lot wrong with Lambeth schools on the whole, above the National average, it's a myth that all London schools are failing schools.

London is now pretty much a rich persons playground, those who raise families in the larger properties tend to do it out of choice and are the more privileged ones, there are still plenty of families that raise families in small places, some choose to some don't.


----------



## moon (Jan 30, 2014)

There are still some affordable and nice places on the edges of London where you get the best of both worlds, plenty of green open spaces and large gardens plus cheap/quick transport links into central London.


----------



## TruXta (Jan 30, 2014)

moon said:


> There are still some affordable and nice places on the edges of London where you get the best of both worlds, plenty of green open spaces and large gardens plus cheap/quick transport links into central London.


Like.... Penge.


----------



## moon (Jan 30, 2014)

TruXta  Ha, yes I used to live there, right next to CP park, I do miss living in that area. The lovely shops and stalls that were on Maple Road, I think they are mostly all gone now, but used to have a sewing shop, thrift/junk shop, car boot sale every weekend, a man who only sold ducks eggs and greetings cards, nice butchers etc etc

I always thought Penge was a very practical place to live, good transport links, lots of facilities, if you wanted nightlife CP was just up the hill, Crystal Palace Park!! and really quick cycling routes into the Kent countryside.
Why did I move again??


----------



## TruXta (Jan 30, 2014)

moon said:


> TruXta  Ha, yes I used to live there, right next to CP park, I do miss living in that area. The lovely shops and stalls that were on Maple Road, I think they are mostly all gone now, but used to have a sewing shop, thrift/junk shop, car boot sale every weekend, a man who only sold ducks eggs and greetings cards, nice butchers etc etc
> 
> I always thought Penge was a very practical place to live, good transport links, lots of facilities, if you wanted nightlife CP was just up the hill, Crystal Palace Park!! and really quick cycling routes into the Kent countryside.
> Why did I move again??



Maple Rd is sadly much diminished from its heyday. The High St and surrounds still has an astounding variety of useful shops. I say astounding as I moved from Brixton, which is pretty much all mobile phone shops, cafes, supermarkets and clothes shops these days.


----------



## happyshopper (Jan 30, 2014)

TruXta said:


> Maple Rd is sadly much diminished from its heyday. The High St and surrounds still has an astounding variety of useful shops. I say astounding as I moved from Brixton, which is pretty much all mobile phone shops, cafes, supermarkets and clothes shops these days.


That is apart from a department store;  a range of hardware stores; a brilliant second-hand bookshop; more fishmongers that the entire county of Buckinghamshire; a growing number of delicatessens and lots of international food stores, not least the fantastic Nour; the 'voodoo' store; Brixton Whole Foods; a Halford's; a Curry's; specialist music stores; and so on. In fact, is it possible to give an example of a single type of shop in Penge that you don't find in Brixton?


----------



## TruXta (Jan 30, 2014)

happyshopper said:


> That is apart from a department store;  a range of hardware stores; a brilliant second-hand bookshop; more fishmongers that the entire county of Buckinghamshire; a growing number of delicatessens and lots of international food stores, not least the fantastic Nour; the 'voodoo' store; Brixton Whole Foods; a Halford's; a Curry's; specialist music stores; and so on. In fact, is it possible to give an example of a single type of shop in Penge that you don't find in Brixton?


Homebase, two door shops, a drapes and curtains outlet, two catering equipment shops, a musical instrument shop, an electricals wholesaler etc. I take your point, but it's hardly controversial to say that Brixton's become more homogenised, especially off the market.


----------



## moon (Jan 30, 2014)

I moved further out to the Kent/london borders, mainly due to housing costs..
However it's still only 13mins into London by train, I have 2 woodlands on my doorstep, a riverside linear park nearby and huge garden. (I'm a bit of a nature freak)
Shops wise its not so great, the local supermarket is a Waitrose which attracts loads of pointless shops around it such as a tanning place, dentist who offers botox injections and a nails bar.
We do have a good hardware shop, charity shop and butchers though, plus Bromley town centre is just up the road.
The area is sort of at a crossroads between rich and poor with a golf course nearby surrounded by huge country houses and a modest but very well built 1930's estate (which was modelled on quaint country cottages and lanes with roads named after the Arthurian legends lol) next to it which is now a mixture of housing association and privately owned.

I would still love to move back to Penge/Anerley though


----------



## TruXta (Jan 30, 2014)

moon said:


> I moved further out to the Kent/london borders, mainly due to housing costs..
> However it's still only 13mins into London by train, I have 2 woodlands on my doorstep, a riverside linear park nearby and huge garden. (I'm a bit of a nature freak)
> Shops wise its not so great, the local supermarket is a Waitrose which attracts loads of pointless shops around it such as a tanning place, dentist who offers botox injections and a nails bar.
> We do have a good hardware shop, charity shop and butchers though, plus Bromley town centre is just up the road.
> ...



I was just looking at some stats comparing Penge/Bromley to Brixton/Lambeth - turns out Bromley is the third most polarised borough in London , and Lambeth is the 7th least polarised borough. Polarisation in this instance meaning "people claiming out of work benefits in each borough. [...] *the proportion who live in the most deprived quarter of areas and the proportion living in the least deprived areas*."

http://www.londonspovertyprofile.org.uk/indicators/topics/inequality/polarisation-by-london-borough/


----------



## moon (Jan 30, 2014)

Yep that would be Bromley.. Wasn't there also a recent survey saying that it was the 9th happiest place to live in the whole of he UK??


----------



## TruXta (Jan 30, 2014)

moon said:


> Yep that would be Bromley.. Wasn't there also a recent survey saying that it was the 9th happiest place to live in the whole of he UK??


 Which bit of it?


----------



## moon (Jan 30, 2014)

All over I guess, I think because it's so green everywhere..


----------



## ffsear (Jan 30, 2014)

BigMoaner said:


> Since having a child, the realities of London life have hit me. first a disclaimer, my child will be going to a school that is nearly 80% non-white british (we are white british), and is a school which is generally swerved by the white middle classes...
> 
> ...all of the middle class parents i know in my area (SE27 and the surrounding) all say they want to move out. Some snicker in my face at the very idea of raising their kids here until secondary schooling age. To be honest, as it is a deeply personal thing, I never push them about it - but a few of the answers I get are "we wouldn't feel safe letting them out to play in the street", and "we want better schools".
> 
> ...




I think it comes down to a shortage of family housing in inner london.   Old family houses are now 3 or 4 flats. (My entire flat used to be someones kitchen and dining room)	  People don't want to live in a flat when they have 2/3 kids.   4 beds and a garden please!   Unless you can afford a  £1,000,000 mortgage,  then off to the suburbs it is.

Under 400k in essex -  http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-42065011.html?premiumA=true

Under 400k in Brixton.   http://www.zoopla.co.uk/for-sale/details/31788507?search_identifier=01586e1dee6a4d8952e845063d6b7390


Its a no brainer! (and why i'm not having kids)


----------



## marty21 (Jan 30, 2014)

ffsear said:


> I think it comes down to a shortage of family housing in inner london.   Old family houses are now 3 or 4 flats. (My entire flat used to be someones kitchen and dining room)	  People don't want to live in a flat when they have 2/3 kids.   4 beds and a garden please!   Unless you can afford a  £1,000,000 mortgage,  then off to the suburbs it is.
> 
> Under 400k in essex -  http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-42065011.html?premiumA=true
> 
> ...


 plus a load of the larger council houses were lost under RTB - so council tenants with kids are routinely overcrowded as there aren't enough larger places to move to. The Bedroom tax was supposed to address this - but doesn't apply to pensioners who are often in places too big for them - and instead punishes someone in a 2 bed which isn't really going to suit a large family


----------



## moochedit (Feb 2, 2014)

Dan U said:


> eta - I like the randomness of a statistically relevant amount of people moving to Coventry and Mansfield to crop up on this as well


What!  cockneys moving to cov and taking our jobs  
Actually, i think some goverment department moved here from london a few years back, so probably thats why they moved here.


----------



## moochedit (Feb 2, 2014)

colacubes said:


> I've got a 24 hours McDonalds 30 seconds walk from my flat.  I win   London is best



so have i here in cov. Ah maybe that's why they came here, couldn't do without 24 hours mackie dees


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Feb 2, 2014)

ffsear said:


> I think it comes down to a shortage of family housing in inner london.   Old family houses are now 3 or 4 flats. (My entire flat used to be someones kitchen and dining room)	  People don't want to live in a flat when they have 2/3 kids.   4 beds and a garden please!   Unless you can afford a  £1,000,000 mortgage,  then off to the suburbs it is.



Yeah - I'd say it's income that's the direct driver here more than class tbh (and I know they're strongly connected before anyone gives me the lecture). Those 'middle class' people who can afford big houses, and probably private schools, aren't moving out as far as I can see.


----------



## leanderman (Feb 2, 2014)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> Yeah - I'd say it's income that's the direct driver here more than class tbh (and I know they're strongly connected before anyone gives me the lecture). Those 'middle class' people who can afford big houses, and probably private schools, aren't moving out as far as I can see.



It's also become a question of age. 

Those over 40 have had more chance to grab cheap homes, free university tuition, decent pensions etc


----------



## marty21 (Feb 2, 2014)

leanderman said:


> It's also become a question of age.
> 
> Those over 40 have had more chance to grab cheap homes, free university tuition, decent pensions etc


Very true, have enjoyed 2 of those, doubt I'll have a great pension though. On the downside we will die before most of the younger Londoners coming up to live here now


----------



## trashpony (Feb 2, 2014)

I have a 24 hour McDonalds, several 24 hour supermarkets, sushi delivery AND I can see the sea from my house. 

Do I win?


----------



## Manter (Feb 2, 2014)

Yes

//thread


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Feb 2, 2014)

trashpony said:


> I have a 24 hour McDonalds, several 24 hour supermarkets, sushi delivery AND I can see the sea from my house.
> 
> Do I win?



And ALL the morris dancers.


----------



## leanderman (Feb 2, 2014)

trashpony said:


> I have a 24 hour McDonalds, several 24 hour supermarkets, sushi delivery AND I can see the sea from my house.
> 
> Do I win?



Not sure seeing the sea from your house is such a bonus in the days of climate change!


----------



## colacubes (Feb 2, 2014)

leanderman said:


> Not sure seeing the sea from your house is such a bonus in the days of climate change!



Fortunately she's up a massive hill so will have time to leg it when the great floods come


----------



## Agent Sparrow (Feb 2, 2014)

colacubes said:


> Fortunately she's up a massive hill so will have time to leg it when the great floods come


Also handy in case of any tsunamis I imagine 

(the only time I've been on an island with a tsunami alert warning, the sole bit of advice was "head up the hills" )


----------



## Ol Nick (Feb 2, 2014)

TruXta said:


> I moved from Brixton, which is pretty much all mobile phone shops, cafes, supermarkets and clothes shops these days.


Simply false.


----------



## felixthecat (Feb 2, 2014)

I can't imagine living in London. I've only ever lived in a city for 3 years (while at university) in my lifetime - and I'm 51!

Cities are ok to visit, but not for me to live in.


----------



## marty21 (Feb 3, 2014)

felixthecat said:


> I can't imagine living in London. I've only ever lived in a city for 3 years (while at university) in my lifetime - and I'm 51!
> 
> Cities are ok to visit, but not for me to live in.


I don't think I would have moved to London if I was my current age (48) I moved up when I was 23 and thought I'd stay a couple of years and then maybe move back to Bath on March 23 this year it will be 25 years


----------



## leanderman (Feb 3, 2014)

The rise of the city made for an interesting 'Something Understood' by Mark Tully on BBC Radio 4 last night.


----------



## Belushi (Feb 7, 2014)

Article in todays Guardian about house prices going through the roof in Hackney http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/feb/06/hackney-house-price-bubble


----------



## leanderman (Feb 7, 2014)

Belushi said:


> Article in todays Guardian about house prices going through the roof in Hackney http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/feb/06/hackney-house-price-bubble



Just read that. Horrific.


----------



## Belushi (Feb 7, 2014)

And a similar situation to the one Brixton is in.

I keep thinking this bubble has got to burst, but then I've been thnking that for 15 years now..


----------



## leanderman (Feb 7, 2014)

Belushi said:


> And a similar situation to the one Brixton is in.
> 
> I keep thinking this bubble has got to burst, but then I've been thnking that for 15 years now..



It may slow a bit.


----------



## fractionMan (Feb 7, 2014)

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bf4KE7LCUAE2lIq.jpg


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Feb 7, 2014)

It is a bit "now we can't even afford to gentrify!"


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Feb 7, 2014)

FridgeMagnet said:


> It is a bit "now we can't even afford to gentrify!"


 
Yeah, it's very Guardian isn't it, to focus on these people who aren't getting the value they want from their £700k.


----------



## Belushi (Feb 7, 2014)

I dont know what Hackney is like to live in, but a lot of them really would do better by looking a bit further out.


----------



## scifisam (Feb 7, 2014)

IME, the main driver is house prices. Getting a garden and maybe an extra bedroom.

I know Manter and Thora and others have brought this up, but having a garden really is a huge bonus when you have kids. I feel like a bad parent for bringing my child up without a garden. Taking your kid to the park really isn't the same. You have to get dressed, get on waterproofs, get out the buggy when they're little, and then possibly only spend ten minutes in the park because it's raining, the playground equipment isn't safe or fun to use and no other kids are there.

At home you can just look out of the window, see a break in the rain, wipe down the mini-slide and swing that you can usually fit in even a tiny garden and get cheap secondhand, and go out to play. 

Race, or rather, religion is a much less important driver but one that I have heard come up. If the local secondary schools are at least 90% Muslim (like in Tower Hamlets), and you're not (whatever your race), then you and your child will be minorities, and being a minority is never fun. This is much more for secondary schools than primary. I don't have a huge problem with it myself, but, as a gay parent with a daughter, it can't help but make a small difference to her socialisation - Muslim parents are less likely to approve of their kids spending time round here (actually, none ever have, although her friends of all other religions have come round and stayed over) and the Muslim girls (not boys) round here really don't socialise with non-Muslims after school times, or even much inside school. There must be exceptions, of course.

OTOH, special needs provision is really good, particularly since there are special needs schools in the area which provide outreach support to kids in mainstream schools, and there are tons of afterschool clubs where you're far more likely to meet like-minded kids than if you only have a choice of kids from a very small area. And teenagers have a lot more independence than in almost every part of the UK, due to public transport and free bus passes. It actually works out pretty well, but I can understand people looking at school stats in abstract and thinking it wouldn't. Especially if their primary driver is really an extra bedroom and a garden and everything else is an afterthought.


----------



## marty21 (Feb 7, 2014)

Belushi said:


> Article in todays Guardian about house prices going through the roof in Hackney http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/feb/06/hackney-house-price-bubble


Crazy, I'm lucky enough to already own a flat in Hackney, which wasn't a desirable area when we bought it in 1997


----------



## leanderman (Feb 7, 2014)

scifisam said:


> IME, the main driver is house prices. Getting a garden and maybe an extra bedroom.
> 
> I know Manter and Thora and others have brought this up, but having a garden really is a huge bonus when you have kids. I feel like a bad parent for bringing my child up without a garden. Taking your kid to the park really isn't the same. You have to get dressed, get on waterproofs, get out the buggy when they're little, and then possibly only spend ten minutes in the park because it's raining, the playground equipment isn't safe or fun to use and no other kids are there.
> .



I'd like a big garden but I don't understand the obsession with same.

And I certainly don't feel like a bad parent.


----------



## Belushi (Feb 7, 2014)

> Housebuying angst in Hackney is a uniquely middle-class phenomenon.



This line in the article is particularly infuriating.


----------



## scifisam (Feb 7, 2014)

leanderman said:


> I'd like a big garden but I don't understand the obsession with same.
> 
> And I certainly don't feel like a bad parent.



I never said a big garden, just a garden. It is very ordinary to want a garden. 

And I never said anyone actually is a bad parent for not giving their kids a garden, just that I sometimes _ feel_ like a bad parent for not doing so.


----------



## scifisam (Feb 7, 2014)

Belushi said:


> This line in the article is particularly infuriating.



Isn't it? Even though the prospective buyers themselves express concerns that they're making it harder for locals to buy where they live.


----------



## leanderman (Feb 7, 2014)

scifisam said:


> I never said a big garden, just a garden. It is very ordinary to want a garden.
> 
> And I never said anyone actually is a bad parent for not giving their kids a garden, just that I sometimes _ feel_ like a bad parent for not doing so.



I have almost no interest in gardens. Would happily live in a flat without one.

I didn't say you said anyone was a bad parent!


----------



## ChrisFilter (Feb 7, 2014)

Garden is a must for me. Even if I never use it, I need to know it's there.


----------



## Rushy (Feb 7, 2014)

Having a garden is definitely a bonus. We could also try to teach kids not be quite so afraid of a bit rain.


----------



## TruXta (Feb 7, 2014)

I've lived with and without. Prefer with, but it's completely fine not to have one too.


----------



## Belushi (Feb 7, 2014)

I have a balcony, its nice just to have a bit of outdoor space; I'm glad to see a lot more flats appear to be being built with them nowadays.


----------



## Dexter Deadwood (Feb 7, 2014)

Belushi said:


> This line in the article is particularly infuriating.



That's the middle class media reflecting their own.
The working class only seem to figure in crime reports or as objects of ridicule across all mainstream media.


----------



## leanderman (Feb 7, 2014)

Dexter Deadwood said:


> That's the middle class media reflecting their own.



Yep. The people who work in newspapers represent little more than the streets of Chelsea, Richmond and Islington.


----------



## scifisam (Feb 7, 2014)

leanderman said:


> I have almost no interest in gardens. Would happily live in a flat without one.
> 
> I didn't say you said anyone was a bad parent!



An awful lot of people do want gardens, though, especially when they have kids. Do you not think that's true? I mean, just because you personally don't want a garden (I never claimed that everyone in the world wants a garden) doesn't mean it's not generally desirable. Otherwise homes with gardens wouldn't sell for so much more than homes without.


----------



## leanderman (Feb 7, 2014)

Absolutely, the English have a strong cultural preference for gardens. 

Maybe, because I don't rate gardens, I am failing my three young children by not moving to Streatham to get a big one.

Fundamentally though, I try to keep my life simple by eliminating distractions such as pets, and gardens, giving me more time to comment here!


----------



## Thora (Feb 8, 2014)

If you have the option of just moving to Streatham to get a house with a garden, then surely it's easy to choose to stay in London.


----------



## leanderman (Feb 8, 2014)

Thora said:


> If you have the option of just moving to Streatham to get a house with a garden, then surely it's easy to choose to stay in London.



Staying put - with a crappy small garden!


----------



## Smick (Feb 8, 2014)

I've got a small garden and I see it as doubling the size of the living space in the good weather. Sit and eat your dinner, read a book, play with the kids, listen to the radio. All these things you do in the house can be done in the fresh air in the garden. And that's before you get the paddling pool out.


----------



## OvalhouseDB (Feb 9, 2014)

The step change is between no-garden and a small garden of any kind, not a small garden and a big garden.
Big garden? Nah - that's what parks are for, and come with their own maintenance system!


----------



## leanderman (Feb 9, 2014)

OvalhouseDB said:


> The step change is between no-garden and a small garden of any kind, not a small garden and a big garden.
> Big garden? Nah - that's what parks are for, and come with their own maintenance system!



True. If you can fit in a paddling pool and a BBQ, it's enough.


----------



## scifisam (Feb 9, 2014)

OvalhouseDB said:


> The step change is between no-garden and a small garden of any kind, not a small garden and a big garden.
> Big garden? Nah - that's what parks are for, and come with their own maintenance system!



Totally. The parents I know moving out of London for an extra room and a garden are only getting small gardens anyway. If you already have that garden and enough indoor space (by your own standards) too then obviously you're not going to have those as reasons for moving. But a lot of people do.


----------



## vornstyle76 (Feb 9, 2014)

Slightly puzzled this thread was started this year rather than thirty years ago. In my experience the 'middle classes' are nowadays desperate to get into London, as deep into the inner-city as possible, and even then such is the competition only the already asset rich or the beneficiaries of inheritance get to stay. Maybe the ones willing to move out are thinking the property bubble will inflate forever and they'll be able to trade their way back.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Feb 9, 2014)

vornstyle76 said:


> Slightly puzzled this thread was started this year rather than thirty years ago. In my experience the 'middle classes' are nowadays desperate to get into London, as deep into the inner-city as possible, and even then such is the competition only the already asset rich or the beneficiaries of inheritance get to stay. Maybe the ones willing to move out are thinking the property bubble will inflate forever and they'll be able to trade their way back.



Dunno really.

There was something fairly nauseating in the evening standard* on friday about the delights of elephant & castle now they have shoved all those nasty council tenants out (it didn't quite put it in those words, but it was close.)



And i guess there are different strands to the market - people without kids will probably be looking for something different to those with young kids.

* - i was on a longish train journey and had forgotten to take a book with me.  i still don't think it's worth the cover price.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 9, 2014)

vornstyle76 said:


> Slightly puzzled this thread was started this year rather than thirty years ago. In my experience the 'middle classes' are nowadays desperate to get into London, as deep into the inner-city as possible, and even then such is the competition only the already asset rich or the beneficiaries of inheritance get to stay. Maybe the ones willing to move out are thinking the property bubble will inflate forever and they'll be able to trade their way back.



From my own limited perspective, the in-flow is mostly young (20s to 40s) and sometimes singleton (with some older elements and couples making up the buyers of larger properties, and the out-flow older and mostly couples or small families.


----------



## davesgcr (Feb 9, 2014)

moochedit said:


> What!  cockneys moving to cov and taking our jobs
> Actually, i think some goverment department moved here from london a few years back, so probably thats why they moved here.


 

Even 30 years ago there were about a 1000 commuters to London from Coventry  (per day) - the numbers will increase with HS2 (if it happens) , or not. I can think o f a couple of people who commuted happily to Lodnon from Kenilworth for a good , long time.


----------



## Manter (Feb 9, 2014)

Puddy_Tat said:


> Dunno really.
> 
> There was something fairly nauseating in the evening standard* on friday about the delights of elephant & castle now they have shoved all those nasty council tenants out (it didn't quite put it in those words, but it was close.)
> 
> ...


Isn't it free?


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Feb 9, 2014)

Manter said:


> Isn't it free?


I believe that's the point...


----------



## Manter (Feb 9, 2014)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I believe that's the point...


Ah. 

Oops. 

<<blushes>>


----------



## Smick (Feb 9, 2014)

Manter said:


> Isn't it free?


 
Yes. And it reads like it is.


----------



## moochedit (Feb 9, 2014)

davesgcr said:


> Even 30 years ago there were about a 1000 commuters to London from Coventry  (per day) - the numbers will increase with HS2 (if it happens) , or not. I can think o f a couple of people who commuted happily to Lodnon from Kenilworth for a good , long time.



Well rather them than me! fuck getting up at 6am and travelling on the m1 or m40 every morning.

Mind you there's about a 50/50 chance of me being made redundant soon (most of the staff at my work made redundant already last week) so i might have to join them soon.


----------



## Cowley (Feb 12, 2014)

vornstyle76 said:


> Slightly puzzled this thread was started this year rather than thirty years ago. In my experience the 'middle classes' are nowadays desperate to get into London, as deep into the inner-city as possible, and even then such is the competition only the already asset rich or the beneficiaries of inheritance get to stay. Maybe the ones willing to move out are thinking the property bubble will inflate forever and they'll be able to trade their way back.


 
Yep, though I do think the trend these days is that more of the middle class are tending to stay and raise families in London. Especially ones who have been living here for a while and are settled on the Housing ladder.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Feb 12, 2014)

vornstyle76 said:


> Maybe the ones willing to move out are thinking the property bubble will inflate forever and they'll be able to trade their way back.


 
I don't think it's that - actually the more the property bubble inflates the more it becomes impossible for them to to move back. It would need wherever they moved to to be inflating faster than London otherwise.


----------



## leanderman (Feb 12, 2014)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> I don't think it's that - actually the more the property bubble inflates the more it becomes impossible for them to to move back. It would need wherever they moved to to be inflating faster than London otherwise.



Absolutely - there is no way back. That is why I am clinging on


----------



## OvalhouseDB (Feb 14, 2014)

Doubtless on Mudbath75  there are local yokels aggrieved at Metropolitans moving in from the smoke, pushing up cottage prices and complaining that it isn't the same now that the whist drive in the British Legion Hall has been driven out by the NCT Nearly new sale and  a Pop Up dub night, and have you seen what they all wear as they queue up for the new Kebab shop, and how long it now takes in the petrol station because they all want to know why they can't use their bloody contactless debit cards (who do they think they are?)when everyone knows Old Pete only takes cash, and did you see the milk float? Couldn't get up Cess-Pit Hill because of all the extra orders of organic yogurt and unpasteurised goats cheese, and the incomers are destroying the community ... Imagine the threads!


----------



## happyshopper (Feb 14, 2014)

OvalhouseDB said:


> Doubtless on Mudbath75  there are local yokels aggrieved at Metropolitans moving in from the smoke, pushing up cottage prices and complaining that it isn't the same now that the whist drive in the British Legion Hall has been driven out by the NCT Nearly new sale and  a Pop Up dub night, and have you seen what they all wear as they queue up for the new Kebab shop, and how long it now takes in the petrol station because they all want to know why they can't use their bloody contactless debit cards (who do they think they are?)when everyone knows Old Pete only takes cash, and did you see the milk float? Couldn't get up Cess-Pit Hill because of all the extra orders of organic yogurt and unpasteurised goats cheese, and the incomers are destroying the community ... Imagine the threads!



They're lucky to have a petrol station.


----------



## Rushy (Feb 14, 2014)

happyshopper said:


> They're lucky to have a petrol station.


I reckon their hill will be more useful at the present time.


----------



## happyshopper (Feb 20, 2014)

I've just noticed there was an interesting column answering this very question in the FT last month. Since it's behind a paywall I've copied it here. The short answer is that "... there is nothing new in recent history about net internal emigration from the capital; young people come for work and to find love, and they leave. "

*London is a young city in an ageing country*
January 15, 2014 11:00 am
3812
London is getting younger:





The map above, via Neal Hudson of Savills, shows London boroughs by change in their mean age from 1981 to 2011. The map below shows mean ages as of 2011.





In contrast, the UK as a whole is getting older. (The chart below from ONS showing_median_ age is an imperfect comparison but it makes the point.)





I asked Mr Hudson for the maps after I saw this chart, which he tweeted yesterday:





It shows _net internal_ migration flows in and out of London since 1999, by age bands.

At least since Michael Goldfarb’s incendiary op-ed in the New York Times, there has been discussion about a “great exodus” from London. This chart shows that there is nothing new in recent history about net internal emigration from the capital; young people come for work and to find love, and they leave – if everything goes to plan – with a job, a mortgage adviser, and a partner. The ageing of Bromley, Bexley and Havering, all suburban outer boroughs, could be a sign of that trend in action.

What keeps London’s population growing overall is international immigration, and, more importantly, the city’s birth rate compared with its death rate. These trends, combined with internal migration patterns, are pushing down the average age.

The difference in the levels of comings and goings since the financial crisis also hints at the acceleration of inner London’s gentrification, as the Economist’s Daniel Knowles has observed. From 2009, net internal emigration decreases quite dramatically, which could reflect: the relative health of the capital’s jobs market compared with the rest of the country, the difficulty in getting a mortgage for that house in the suburbs, changing business location decisions, the quality of negronis and flat whites in inner London boroughs, and improving inner-city schools.

Whatever the reason, the pressure valve of emigration was not working as before. For another article, I performed a back of the envelope calculation using ONS data that found how in the five years before 2008, an average of 10,700 more 20 and 30-somethings left London for the rest of the country than arrived. Then, in the five years afterwards, an average of 15,400 more twenty and thirty somethings arrived than left.

All the above – and of course house price data – is evidence of a “great inversion”, a trend common in the US, whereby London’s inner areas – such as Hackney and Lambeth – are gentrifying and becoming younger quicker than the surrounding boroughs.

If we must talk of an “exodus”, then, the clearest pattern is an increase in poverty in the outer boroughs and the gentrification of parts of inner London. Changes to housing benefit and other “welfare reforms” are accelerating this trend. The city’s highest unemployment rate used to be in Tower Hamlets, but now it is in Barking and Newham.

It will be interesting to see whether the recovery of the mortgage market and Help to Buy changes these patterns. Based upon an unscientific sample of my friends and a few delivery men, Walthamstow, for example, is receiving a lot of interest from young professionals who currently rent in zones one and two who are now looking to buy.

But even if this happens it might not change how London as a whole keeps on getting younger, since that is also driven by international immigration and birth rates. The other “exodus” is therefore an age-based one. The inner capital is, in a sense, becoming more like the rest of the world: diverse and young, albeit with a disproportionate number of residents who actively choose to read Monocle.

The exceptions are Kensington & Chelsea and the City of London. As can be seen on the first map, their average ages have increased slightly since 1981. This makes sense – they are expensive, home to the established wealthy, full of great doctors, and popular with older foreign buyers. They are perhaps a sign of how, although young people are compromising over living space elsewhere in London, eventually price wins out.


----------



## Belushi (Feb 20, 2014)

Thanks for posting that happyshopper, interesting stuff.


----------



## marty21 (Feb 20, 2014)

my neighbour has middle-class angst - her ex moved out and is buying a flat locally, is prepared to wait for her to sell their house (worth about £750k atm) and she wants to move locally as well - but says she can't afford to buy a flat outright locally atm (she probably could tbh) she said she might wait until the summer to see if the prices increase more

she used to be , and might still be, swp


----------



## Agent Sparrow (Feb 20, 2014)

marty21 said:


> my neighbour has middle-class angst - her ex moved out and is buying a flat locally, is prepared to wait for her to sell their house (worth about £750k atm) and she wants to move locally as well - but says she can't afford to buy a flat outright locally atm (she probably could tbh) she said she might wait until the summer to see if the prices increase more
> 
> she used to be , and might still be, swp


But even if the house increases in value, wouldn't the flats also?


----------



## Winot (Feb 20, 2014)

Agent Sparrow said:


> But even if the house increases in value, wouldn't the flats also?



Different types of property change price at different rates. In fact, flat prices have been rising faster than house prices.


----------



## marty21 (Feb 20, 2014)

Agent Sparrow said:


> But even if the house increases in value, wouldn't the flats also?


yep, I think she is being a little too cautious - they don't even have a mortgage on the house - they bought it about 15 years ago for maybe £200k


----------



## leanderman (Feb 20, 2014)

Can't really see how her half of any increase in the house will outstrip any increase in the price of target flat.


----------



## leanderman (Feb 20, 2014)

marty21 said:


> yep, I think she is being a little too cautious - they don't even have a mortgage on the house - they bought it about 15 years ago for maybe £200k



Jesus!


----------



## BigMoaner (Feb 20, 2014)

we've recently bought a house in london in the only place we can afford to - thorton heath. nice size, three beds, gardens. it's the only place that has remained affordable that i can see for people on mid to low incomes. we sold our west norwood flat for nearly twice the amount we paid for it 8 years ago


----------



## Rushy (Feb 20, 2014)

BigMoaner said:


> we've recently bought a house in london in the only place we can afford to - thorton heath. nice size, three beds, gardens. it's the only place that has remained affordable that i can see for people on mid to low incomes. we sold our west norwood flat for nearly twice the amount we paid for it 8 years ago



Not quite so affordable if you are being priced out by newcomers with decent cash deposits - who would rather have lived somewhere else but were priced out of it by newcomers with large cash deposits.


----------



## OvalhouseDB (Feb 24, 2014)

Townie incomers try and sanitise country community: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...stop-displaying-meat-game-townies-object.html


----------



## Belushi (Feb 24, 2014)

But they all appearto be fine eating the meat


----------



## ddraig (Feb 24, 2014)

too real for the fukwits! 
more respect for the butcher showing it as it is



> ‘Everyone knows animals are killed to get meat but you don’t need it shoved in your face like this.’


 FUCK OFF 
can't be showing a 12yr old the reality now can we, noooooooo


----------



## T & P (Feb 24, 2014)

Parents taking their darlings to the sweets shop next door should be advised to fuck off if little Eliza doesn't like the sight of a pig's head on a butcher's window


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jan 23, 2015)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> I imagine a big part of it is that what buys you a tiny one bed flat in London can get you a 4 bed family home with a garden elsewhere.



Thats certainly my reason, I probably count as vaguely middle class, but I've probably been banned for shoving or saying "your all cunts" so...


----------

