# The conflation of race with the issue of child abuse.



## ItWillNeverWork (Nov 20, 2011)

I'm watching a piece on BBC news about child grooming and part of the focus has been on the racial make-up of the perpetrators. I was always under the impression that most paedophiles were white, so why this focus on the Asian community in the media? does anyone know what the actual statistics are in regards to the race of convicted child abusers?


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## Maurice Picarda (Nov 20, 2011)

Banworthy? How?


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## ItWillNeverWork (Nov 20, 2011)

Maurice Picarda said:


> Banworthy? How?



Eh?


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## Maurice Picarda (Nov 20, 2011)

Sorry, your tagline said that you'd been banned immediately after posting that. Presumably that was something you'd done yourself for grins.


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## ItWillNeverWork (Nov 20, 2011)

Oh, I get you. No, I'm not banned. That was just a joke status I added earlier this morning. Sorry, I accidentally derailed my own thread.

Anyway, does anybody have any knowledge on the subject? The programme on News 24 was rather inflammatory I thought.


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## _angel_ (Nov 20, 2011)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> I'm watching a piece on BBC news about child grooming and part of the focus has been on the racial make-up of the perpetrators. I was always under the impression that most paedophiles were white, so why this focus on the Asian community in the media? does anyone know what the actual statistics are in regards to the race of convicted child abusers?


Why would they be mainly white apart from the fact most people over the whole population are? If you are talking about an area where most people are not white, it follows most paedophiles will be also.


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## ItWillNeverWork (Nov 20, 2011)

_angel_ said:


> Why would they be mainly white apart from the fact most people over the whole population are? If you are talking about an area where most people are not white, it follows most paedophiles will be also.



Exactly. But that isn't the impression that this programme was giving, and it's not the impression that you get when you read in the gutter press about 'asian rape gangs' etc. The programme seemed to imply that paedophilia was something dispropportionately perpetrated by Asian men.


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## _angel_ (Nov 20, 2011)

There is an issue apparently with (mainly) asian men targeting  non asian girls and I don't think the BBC would be mentioning it unless there was a good case it was true.


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## ItWillNeverWork (Nov 20, 2011)

_angel_ said:


> There is an issue apparently with (mainly) asian men targeting non asian girls



A few months ago there was a big story in the papers about an asian gang grooming young girls. The same week a gang of white people got charged for exactly the same thing. Guess which got all the headlines?



> and I don't think the BBC would be mentioning it unless there was a good case it was true.



Do you know the actual numbers though? Or do you just presume that because it's on the BBC it must be true?


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## _angel_ (Nov 20, 2011)

I would never normally trust the BBC but this has been on the local news and I don't think the local BBC are in the business of manufacturing a race row for no reason. In fact I'd say they were shit scared of doing such a thing. It's okay for them to demonise claimants but they're not going to want to be accused of racism.


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## ItWillNeverWork (Nov 20, 2011)

_angel_ said:


> I would never normally trust the BBC but this has been on the local news and I don't think the local BBC are in the business of manufacturing a race row for no reason. In fact I'd say they were shit scared of doing such a thing. It's okay for them to demonise claimants but they're not going to want to be accused of racism.



So do you know the figures?


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## _angel_ (Nov 20, 2011)

Why would I? I get the feeling that you'd prefer to ignore it tho.


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## ItWillNeverWork (Nov 20, 2011)

If I preferred to ignore it I wouldn't have started the thread. I don't, however, trust what I read or see in the news.


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## ItWillNeverWork (Nov 20, 2011)

And btw, not figures were quoted in the programme, just innuendo.


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## _angel_ (Nov 20, 2011)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> If I preferred to ignore it I wouldn't have started the thread. I don't, however, trust what I read or see in the news.


You think they invented this?
Why would the BBC want to do that.....? I can't think of a reason. It will be reported, but it seems you don't want it to be???


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## Captain Hurrah (Nov 20, 2011)

Child abuse within certain 'groups,' or between them?


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## goldenecitrone (Nov 20, 2011)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> I'm watching a piece on BBC news about child grooming and part of the focus has been on the racial make-up of the perpetrators. I was always under the impression that most paedophiles were white, so why this focus on the Asian community in the media? does anyone know what the actual statistics are in regards to the race of convicted child abusers?



It's all part of the bbcs new anti-immigration series. You don't see Lenny Henry much these days, either.


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## ItWillNeverWork (Nov 20, 2011)

_angel_ said:


> You think they invented this?
> Why would the BBC want to do that.....? I can't think of a reason. It will be reported, but it seems you don't want it to be???



No. I think they were implementing lazy journalism in echoing the racism of tabloid media.


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## _angel_ (Nov 20, 2011)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> No. I think they were implementing lazy journalism in echoing the racism of tabloid media.


See I could understand it if it WAS the tabloids you were talking about or even the press in general. But the BBC are scared of anything that might get them labelled "racist". Something that actually happened was being reported but you don't seem to want to hear about it.


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## ItWillNeverWork (Nov 20, 2011)

_angel_ said:


> See I could understand it if it WAS the tabloids you were talking about or even the press in general. But the BBC are scared of anything that might get them labelled "racist". Something that actually happened was being reported but you don't seem to want to hear about it.



Why do you keep saying that I 'don't want to hear about it'? I don't accept for a second that the BBC are neutral on anything. They operate in an environment in which the social mood is one of accepting racist undertones without question. That is the subject of this thread.


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## Jon-of-arc (Nov 20, 2011)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> If I preferred to ignore it I wouldn't have started the thread. I don't, however, trust what I read or see in the news.



What do you trust?


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## ItWillNeverWork (Nov 20, 2011)

Jon-of-arc said:


> What do you trust?



Methodologically sound studies.


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## _angel_ (Nov 20, 2011)

Because you're complaining about it. Because, in this instance it appears that groups of (mainly) Asian men are targeting (mainly) non Asian girls. Which isn't to say that abuse doesn't happen vice versa or Asian girls never get abused, but probably more in a different behind closed doors setting (like most sexual abuse). This is notable because it's classic "stranger danger" and happening more 'in public'.


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## ItWillNeverWork (Nov 20, 2011)

Here, btw, is the methodologically _unsound_ study that these stories seem to be based on.

http://www.ceop.police.uk/Documents/ceopdocs/ceop_thematic_assessment_executive_summary.pdf



> Caution should be taken in drawing conclusions about ethnicity due to the relatively small number of areas where
> agencies have been proactive around this particular type of crime. We do not draw national conclusions about ethnicity
> from the data available at this time because it is too inconsistent.



Of course, none of these nuances get into the reporting of these findings in the press.


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## ItWillNeverWork (Nov 20, 2011)

_angel_ said:


> Because you're complaining about it. Because, in this instance it appears that groups of (mainly) Asian men are targeting (mainly) non Asian girls. Which isn't to say that abuse doesn't happen vice versa or Asian girls never get abused, but probably more in a different behind closed doors setting (like most sexual abuse). This is notable because it's classic "stranger danger" and happening more 'in public'.



You admit yourself that you do not know the actual figures involved. Neither did I, which is why I asked the question. Instead of an answer that involved hard facts, I get accusations of wanting to 'ignore' the situation - a situation which you are yet to prove is actually the case.


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## Jon-of-arc (Nov 20, 2011)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> Methodologically sound studies.



I hate to say it, but that's a pretty narrow view of what is and isnt reliable information.  And presumably, the BBC is reporting a disturbing trend observed by unbiased organisations collecting meaningful statistics on child abuse and race?  There have been independent charities talking about this recently, iirc.  Specifically the thing angel mentioned about Asian men grooming (mostly) white teenage girls.  They dont just pull this information out of their bums - they collect reports from police, social services etc and observe and report on worrying trends...


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## _angel_ (Nov 20, 2011)

Didn't you just say yourself people had been convicted already and yet you're asking me to prove that it happened?


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## Jon-of-arc (Nov 20, 2011)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> Here, btw, is the methodologically _unsound_ study that these stories seem to be based on.
> 
> http://www.ceop.police.uk/Documents/ceopdocs/ceop_thematic_assessment_executive_summary.pdf
> 
> Of course, none of these nuances get into the reporting of these findings in the press.



Got that in none PDF?


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## ItWillNeverWork (Nov 20, 2011)

Jon-of-arc said:


> I hate to say it, but that's a pretty narrow view of what is and isnt reliable information. And presumably, the BBC is reporting a disturbing trend observed by unbiased organisations collecting meaningful statistics on child abuse and race? There have been independent charities talking about this recently, iirc. Specifically the thing angel mentioned about Asian men grooming (mostly) white teenage girls. They dont just pull this information out of their bums - they collect reports from police, social services etc and observe and report on worrying trends...



It's not a narrow view. It's about as broad as it gets without having to include _second hand_ reporting of these findings in the press.


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## ItWillNeverWork (Nov 20, 2011)

_angel_ said:


> Didn't you just say yourself people had been convicted already and yet you're asking me to prove that it happened?



I'm not denying that Asian people abuse children. I'm questioning the inference that this crime is perpetrated primarily by Asian people.


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## ItWillNeverWork (Nov 20, 2011)

Jon-of-arc said:


> Got that in none PDF?



I'm afraid not, no. A quick google came up with nothing,


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## _angel_ (Nov 20, 2011)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> I'm not denying that Asian people abuse children. I'm questioning the inference that this crime is perpetrated primarily by Asian people.


Because they come from mainly Asian areas. It's hardly rocket science and no different from a paedophile in a white area being more likely to be white.


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## Jon-of-arc (Nov 20, 2011)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> It's not a narrow view. It's about as broad as it gets without having to include _second hand_ reporting of these findings in the press.



I mean in general, not specific to this case.


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## ItWillNeverWork (Nov 20, 2011)

_angel_ said:


> Because they come from mainly Asian areas. It's hardly rocket science and no different from a paedophile in a white area being more likely to be white.



Jesus christ, did you bump your head in the night? I'm not making a point that is difficult to understand. I'll spell it out for you - the programme just aired gave the impression that child abuse _in general_ is a crime carried out by Asian men. _That_ is what I was questioning.


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## goldenecitrone (Nov 20, 2011)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> Jesus christ, did you bump your head in the night? I'm not making a point that is difficult to understand. I'll spell it out for you - the programme just aired gave the impression that child abuse _in general_ is a crime carried out by Asian men. _That_ is what I was questioning.



Got a link to this programme claiming most paedos are Asian?


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## two sheds (Nov 20, 2011)

How dare you ask for the actual figures and not not trust our wise BBC guardians


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## ItWillNeverWork (Nov 20, 2011)

goldenecitrone said:


> Got a link to this programme claiming most paedos are Asian?



_Giving the impression_ is what I said. As you well know.

The programme does not seem to have been uploaded to iplayer yet I'm afraid.


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## ItWillNeverWork (Nov 20, 2011)

two sheds said:


> How dare you ask for the actual figures and not not trust our wise BBC guardians



Finally, someone who grasps the very simple point I was making.


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## Edie (Nov 20, 2011)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> Jesus christ, did you bump your head in the night? I'm not making a point that is difficult to understand. I'll spell it out for you - the programme just aired gave the impression that child abuse _in general_ is a crime carried out by Asian men. _That_ is what I was questioning.


I very much doubt any programme would 'give the impression' that child abuse is generally a problem only for the Asian community. You sure you were concentrating?

If your talking specifically about Asian male sex gangs and exploitation of white working class girls then yer it's a recognised problem. By the police, Child Exploitation and Online Protection Agency, youth groups and within the Pakistani community itself in Yorkshire.

Also, your arsey


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## _angel_ (Nov 20, 2011)

Is there some reason people who are Asian couldn't be also racistly targeting mainly white girls, you're not going to shit on your own doorstep. The implication seems to be to try and dismiss the accounts of the victims and pretend it's not happening.
I don't have tons of faith in BBC reporting, but what have they to gain by lying about this?


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## ItWillNeverWork (Nov 20, 2011)

Fuck me you're thick.


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## Captain Hurrah (Nov 20, 2011)

What is the problem here, that the BBC has turned a recognised problem, and down to regional demographics, into a national problem?


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## ItWillNeverWork (Nov 20, 2011)

Captain Hurrah said:


> What is the problem here, that the BBC has turned a recognised problem, and down to regional demographics, into a national problem?



Pretty much, yes.


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## _angel_ (Nov 20, 2011)

Captain Hurrah said:


> What is the problem here, that the BBC has turned a recognised problem, and down to regional demographics, into a national problem?


I don't understand what the problem is. I think people have been treading very lightly around this and when it was covered on Look North they were very very careful not to say anything potentially offensive.
Apparently that makes me thick.



> Fuck me your thick.



"You're" not "your" brainache.


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## ItWillNeverWork (Nov 20, 2011)

_angel_ said:


> I don't understand what the problem is. I think people have been treading very lightly around this and when it was covered on Look North they were very very careful not to say anything potentially offensive.
> Apparently that makes me thick.
> 
> "You're" not "your" brainache.



Touche. But despite my spelling I am at least able to understand the simple point that was being made here. Fuck it. This thread isnt worth it any more.


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## _angel_ (Nov 20, 2011)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> Touche. But despite my spelling I am at least able to understand the simple point that was being made here. Fuck it. This thread isnt worth it any more.


What simple point is that? What is your actual problem with this being reported?


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## ItWillNeverWork (Nov 20, 2011)

_angel_ said:


> What simple point is that? What is your actual problem with this being reported?


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## KeeperofDragons (Nov 20, 2011)

I watched the report and though white gangs were mentioned in passing the bent of the report was toward Asian gangs mainly Pakistani.  I found this rather disturbing as it seems to shift the problem to one particular community when sexual exploitation of young women & children is a wider problem not helped in anyway by the sexulisation of young girls via clothing etc


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## dessiato (Nov 20, 2011)

Pogofish will be along soon to tell you that there is a previous thread about this.


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## Shippou-Sensei (Nov 20, 2011)

also asia  is kinda  broad

i think  probably 50% of humanity  could be called asian


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## Joe Reilly (Nov 20, 2011)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> I'm not denying that Asian people abuse children. I'm questioning the inference that this crime is perpetrated primarily by Asian people.



Its a particular type of street grooming defined by the victims being selected and targetted because they are young and non-Asian/Muslim.


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## Grandma Death (May 9, 2012)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-17993003

Bumped because I cant see an active thread on it?? So...is there an issue in northern towns with groups of asian men grooming young vulnerable adults and how big exactly is the problem?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/may/08/asian-sex-gangs-on-street-grooming

This article appears to suggest that when abuse occurs and the assailants are asian it tends to involve groups rather than the singular.

I'd be interested in views on this because I think grooming cuts across class and race and I reject the views of those on the right who seek to make it about race/religion.


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## Jeff Robinson (May 9, 2012)

> Anecdotally, as far back as the mid-90s, local agencies have been aware of the participation of ethnic minority men in some cases of serial abuse. But what has not emerged is any consistent evidence to suggest that Pakistani Muslim men are uniquely and disproportionately involved in these crimes, nor that they are preying on white girls because they believe them to be legitimate sexual quarry, as is now being suggested.
> 
> The Times investigation is based around 56 men convicted in the Midlands and north of England since 1997, 50 from Muslim backgrounds. Granted, such prosecutions are notoriously difficult to sustain, but, nonetheless, this is a small sample used to evidence the "tidal wave" of offending referred to by unnamed police sources. Martin Narey, the chief executive of Barnardo's, which has run projects in the areas concerned for many years, tells me that, while he is pleased to see open discussion of child sexual exploitation, he worries that "decent Pakistani men will now be looked at as potential child abusers". He insists: "This is not just about Pakistani men, and not just about Asian men. And it is happening all over the country."
> 
> ...


 
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/jan/07/grooming-racialising-crime-tradition


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## Louis MacNeice (May 9, 2012)

On the Today programme this morning a statistic was given that suggested 'grooming gangs' were significantly disproportionately composed of men from an Asian background when compared to the make up of the general population. If this is the case then in relation to 'grooming gangs' it would not seem unreasonable to look into potential culturally specific beliefs and/or practices which could provide an explanation for/response to this finding.

What it doesn't impact on is an overall understanding of/response grooming activities which occur outside the context of a 'gang' and across ethnic groups; it doesn't even set these activities in proportion to those of 'grooming gangs'. Neither does it address the elephant in the room question of the shared cultural beliefs and/or practices which may explain the hugely disproportionate number of men (in comparison to women), from a variety of ethnic and class backgrounds, who engage in child sex abuse.

In short, while there may be an ethnic dimension to the 'grooming gangs', it needs to be kept in perspective.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


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## manny-p (May 9, 2012)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> I'm not denying that Asian people abuse children. I'm questioning the inference that this crime is perpetrated primarily by Asian people.


It's this type of grooming that is done more by asian men-cruising in cars etc. Most is done via the net by mostly whites.


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## Mrs Magpie (May 9, 2012)

manny-p said:


> It's this type of grooming that is done more by asian men-cruising in cars etc. Most is done via the net by mostly whites.


Or within the family or family social networks, which is the highest proportion of all.


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## manny-p (May 9, 2012)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Or within the family or family social networks, which is the highest proportion of all.


aye sorry you are right.


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## Mrs Magpie (May 9, 2012)

We're both right I think


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## Joe Reilly (May 9, 2012)

manny-p said:


> It's this type of grooming that is done more by asian men-cruising in cars etc. Most is done via the net by mostly whites.


 
Notice how the BBC and so forth tend to morph Muslim to Asian when this issue arises?


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## manny-p (May 9, 2012)

Joe Reilly said:


> Notice how the BBC and so forth tend to morph Muslim to Asian when this issue arises?


 
Aye. Annoying or perhaps _deliberate_ by the bbc and the state. I would not put it past them, with their identity politics crap.


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## Joe Reilly (May 9, 2012)

manny-p said:


> Aye. Annoying or perhaps _deliberate_ by the bbc and the state. I would not put it past them, with their identity politics crap.


 
I'm sure its not accidental. It's not as if the terms are in anyway interchangable generally. It stands out only because in terms of discussions around race, religion and politics generally the term Asian is otherwise almost obsolete.


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## manny-p (May 9, 2012)

Joe Reilly said:


> I'm sure its not accidental. It's not as if the terms are in anyway interchangable generally. It stands out only because in terms of discussions around race, religion and politics generally the term Asian is otherwise almost obsolete.


Good shout Joe. Sometimes I think the powers that be do not actually want integration instead they are quite happy with the current state of play, with different communities competing against each other-divide and rule esque stuff. There are also like the BNP in that respect who are perfectly happy having racial segregation.


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## Mr Smin (May 9, 2012)

Louis MacNeice said:


> On the Today programme this morning a statistic was given that suggested 'grooming gangs' were significantly disproportionately composed of men from an Asian background when compared to the make up of the general population. If this is the case then in relation to 'grooming gangs' it would not seem unreasonable to look into potential culturally specific beliefs and/or practices which could provide an explanation for/response to this finding.
> 
> What it doesn't impact on is an overall understanding of/response grooming activities which occur outside the context of a 'gang' and across ethnic groups; it doesn't even set these activities in proportion to those of 'grooming gangs'. Neither does it address the elephant in the room question of the shared cultural beliefs and/or practices which may explain the hugely disproportionate number of men (in comparison to women), from a variety of ethnic and class backgrounds, who engage in child sex abuse.
> 
> ...


Al Jazeera English is carrying this too. Academic study of ongoing police investigations indicates that when it's a gang rather than individuals, only 6% of cases are white perpetrators. AJE didn't have all the comparative data either, and I didn't catch the title of the study (which hopefully does have the rest of the numbers for comparison).


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## Pickman's model (May 9, 2012)

goldenecitrone said:


> You don't see Lenny Henry much these days, either.


And thank fuck for that


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## Joe Reilly (May 9, 2012)

manny-p said:


> Good shout Joe. Sometimes I think the powers that be do not actually want integration instead they are quite happy with the current state of play, with different communities competing against each other-divide and rule esque stuff. There are also like the BNP in that respect who are perfectly happy having racial segregation.


 
Of course, what the left never seem to get is that identity politics is _all about_ seperate development. One outcome is that there are inevitably different rules for different people. Today in an interview on Radio Five Live, the interviewer repeatedly stressed that the victims were 'out late' which is sailing periliously close to implying they were 'asking for it', which happens to mirror the attitude of too many in the Muslim community. The constant encouragement to adopt a course of special pleading also emerged in court where a number of the defendants claimed the judge was 'racist' while the jury was 'bnp'. The reflex toward moral relativism among the left is further evidence of the same trend and just as damaging.


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## bemused (May 9, 2012)

I did listen to the piece on radio four this morning. It isn't a bad thing that most people feel uncomfortable linking a race or religion to a type of crime. However; here there does seem to be disproportionate number of Asian men grooming this girls and passing them around their social circle.

 I wonder if these girls being predominately white is a consequence of the majority of vulnerable girls in the area being white rather than being targeted because they are white?

Martin Narey was very credible but I found Keith Vaz intent on painting anyone who asked if a link existed as repeating BNP slogans. It is a brutal problem and needs a brutally frank assessment, frankness not being one of Vaz's strengths you have to wonder if any investigation led by him and his select committee will be straight forward enough?


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