# Galloway turns his attention to the disabled...



## Wilf (Aug 27, 2012)

'window lickers'.   Salma Yaquoob probably thought this would be a quiet weekend. 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2012/aug/27/george-galloway-criticised-window-licker-tweet


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## ItWillNeverWork (Aug 27, 2012)

In the course of a few days Galloway has completely fucked himself. I actually used to have a soft spot for him, but it seems the world was right about the man. What a dickhead.


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## Spanky Longhorn (Aug 27, 2012)

a lovely man.


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## purenarcotic (Aug 27, 2012)

For fuck's sake.


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## cesare (Aug 27, 2012)

Doesn't bloody surprise me. Mind you, I had very little respect (lol) for him anyway after he came round here with his entourage on the run up to the last election. The comments and mutterings in his wake were telling.


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## Vintage Paw (Aug 27, 2012)

He really is a fucking dick.


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## Wilf (Aug 27, 2012)

Whatever I think if him personally/politically (detest him) I've always thought he had a good speaker's brain.  He's articulate, has a good vocabulary and rarely gets flustered.  It's self valorising aggressive shite, but you get the impression his brain is working quite efficiently when he speaks.  Okay, this isn't _speaking_, but I don't think he can fall back on some sort of 'sorry, it was just an immediate response, wasn't considered' defence.


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## ItWillNeverWork (Aug 27, 2012)

It's almost as if the soul of David Starkey has possessed the body of Galloway.


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## shagnasty (Aug 27, 2012)

Twitter seems to be a mine field for politicians.If they are supposed be so clever why do they always slip up !!berks!!!


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## ItWillNeverWork (Aug 27, 2012)

I think it takes a certain type of person to 'tweet'.


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## Puddy_Tat (Aug 27, 2012)

I'm almost inclined to agree with (2009 model) David Cameron in that



> "The trouble with Twitter, the instantness of it – too many twits might make a twat."


 
As for GG,  

I'm not a complete fan, but his ability to piss new labour off and get elected on a left platform did strike me as positive - I'd rather have left MPs that I don't agree with 100% than the three shades of tory that the system offers.


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## cesare (Aug 27, 2012)

Frankie Boyle a few minutes ago on Galloway's first faux pas "to be fair, he only said what other rapists were thinking"


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## Pickman's model (Aug 27, 2012)

Puddy_Tat said:


> I'd rather have left MPs that I don't agree with 100% than the three shades of tory that the system offers.


if that's the case you must be well chuffed with george galloway


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## Pickman's model (Aug 27, 2012)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> It's almost as if the soul of David Starkey has possessed the body of Galloway.


pls point to anything starkey has said on either rape or disabled people which has aroused controversy.


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## ItWillNeverWork (Aug 27, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> pls point to anything starkey has said on either rape or disabled people which has aroused controversy.


 
It was more the general cuntishness I was referring to. A professional controversialist.


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## Puddy_Tat (Aug 27, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> if that's the case you must be well chuffed with george galloway


 
No, I'm pissed off with him.

I didn't really get to where I intended to go in my previous post, which on re-reading it doesn't really make sense (I'm not going to go back and edit) - posting without due care and attention.

I'll try again.

until this week, while not agreeing 100% with GG, my general attitude has been I'd rather have him than a '3 shades of tory' MP.

I'm now pissed off with him and think he's either a cunt or doing a very good impression of one.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 27, 2012)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> It was more the general cuntishness I was referring to. A professional controversialist.


not that professional if he's never made any objectionable comments about rape or disability.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 27, 2012)

Puddy_Tat said:


> No, I'm pissed off with him.
> 
> I didn't really get to where I intended to go in my previous post, which on re-reading it doesn't really make sense (I'm not going to go back and edit) - posting without due care and attention.
> 
> ...


he's a cunt, as i said eight or nine years ago.


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## DotCommunist (Aug 27, 2012)

Gorgeous is a walking liability. Get outside of the tent and piss into it George. At least that way we know where to look for the golden stream rather than having you PISS ALL OVER THE FURNITURE.

For gods sake, the sectarian divisive prick. Just die.


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## DexterTCN (Aug 27, 2012)

I tried to read the tweets but the person he was talking to has a protected account.   Anyone know what was actually said?


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## Pickman's model (Aug 27, 2012)

DexterTCN said:


> I tried to read the tweets but the person he was talking to has a protected account. Anyone know what was actually said?


yes, obviously, or there wouldn't be a shitstorm about it


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## DexterTCN (Aug 27, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> yes, obviously, or there wouldn't be a shitstorm about it


cool...gimme a link to the conversation then


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## cesare (Aug 27, 2012)

Link in #1 which contains the tweet.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 27, 2012)

DexterTCN said:


> cool...gimme a link to the conversation then


you've not the thread, have you?


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## Vintage Paw (Aug 27, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> you've not the thread, have you?


 
Actually, I think you'll find he accidentally the entire thread.


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## DexterTCN (Aug 27, 2012)

I've read the thread and the link.   GG is replying, looks like on a football matter, can't see the rest of the conversation apart from one tweet by GG.


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## xenon (Aug 27, 2012)

Someone being a twat on twitterr. This is grave news.


George Galloway, if you hadn't noticed before, is an egotisticle dicksplash and not as clever or as astute as he thinks he is. Still, he was alright on Talksport. Er...

And now the weather.


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## Teepee (Aug 27, 2012)

Vintage Paw said:


> Actually, I think you'll find he accidentally the entire thread.


how do i the entire threads?


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## Teepee (Aug 27, 2012)

xenon said:


> egotisticle .



He thinks a lot of himself despite his frozen ball?

(sorry)


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## Vintage Paw (Aug 27, 2012)

Teepee said:


> how do i the entire threads?


 
Very carefully.


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## DexterTCN (Aug 27, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> yes, obviously, or there wouldn't be a shitstorm about it


come on then


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## Teepee (Aug 27, 2012)

Vintage Paw said:


> Very carefully.



Carefully? Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?


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## Pickman's model (Aug 27, 2012)

DexterTCN said:


> come on then


come on what?


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## Wilf (Aug 27, 2012)

DexterTCN said:


> I've read the thread and the link. GG is replying, looks like on a football matter, can't see the rest of the conversation apart from one tweet by GG.


 Think he's a Celtic fan, so it was presumably a frank exchange of views with a newco-er.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 27, 2012)

Wilf said:


> Think he's a Celtic fan, so it was presumably a frank exchange of views with a newco-er.


and an everton supporter.


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## Wilf (Aug 27, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> and an everton supporter.


 He's had a long commitment to the Bangladesh Cricket Team.  Suspect he went watching them as a kid or something. Must have been that.


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## xenon (Aug 27, 2012)

Teepee said:


> He thinks a lot of himself despite his frozen ball?
> 
> (sorry)



TBF, my posts are a cross between testoments and articles...


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## treelover (Aug 27, 2012)

actually using the term 'window licker' might be against the law, truly appalling thing to say anyway, he really is a waste of space...


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## DexterTCN (Aug 27, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> come on what?


You said that *obviously* there was a link to the conversation (post #21) and that's why there's a shitstorm...I'm asking you to show it to me.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 27, 2012)

treelover said:


> actually using the term 'window licker' might be against the law, truly appalling thing to say anyway, he really is a waste of space...


what's your expertise in the law?


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## Pickman's model (Aug 27, 2012)

DexterTCN said:


> You said that *obviously* there was a link to the conversation (post #21) and that's why there's a shitstorm...I'm asking you to show it to me.


you asked 'does anyone know what was said'. obviously someone does. i never said i had a link to the conversation or that i knew the complete text.


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## DexterTCN (Aug 27, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> you asked 'does anyone know what was said'. obviously someone does. i never said i had a link to the conversation or that i knew the complete text.


Right...so you don't know what was said then?


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## Pickman's model (Aug 27, 2012)

DexterTCN said:


> Right...so you don't know what was said then?


pls point me to where i said i did.


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## DexterTCN (Aug 27, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> pls point me to where i said i did.


your reply 21 to my post 20 when I asked all you pleasant non-judgemental people to point out the conversation.

I mean....you wouldn't take one line out of a conversation and condemn a man, would you?


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## scifisam (Aug 27, 2012)

DexterTCN said:


> Right...so you don't know what was said then?


 
It's in the article.

And it doesn't matter what was said to him - what on earth could be said to justify him using that term?


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## DexterTCN (Aug 27, 2012)

scifisam said:


> It's in the article.


where?   put a quote of the conversation up


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## Pickman's model (Aug 27, 2012)

DexterTCN said:


> your reply 21 to my post 20 when I asked all you pleasant non-judgemental people to point out the conversation.
> 
> I mean....you wouldn't take one line out of a conversation and condemn a man, would you?


fucking read the link in the op and fuck off you dull cunt.

i never said I knew what had been said, you posted 'does anyone' and i said 'yes, someone does'.

now fuck off


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## scifisam (Aug 27, 2012)

DexterTCN said:


> where? put a quote of the conversation up


 
It's in the article linked in the very first post of this thread. Why would I need to quote something you can also read?


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## Firky (Aug 27, 2012)

treelover said:


> actually using the term 'window licker' might be against the law, truly appalling thing to say anyway, he really is a waste of space...


 
Why would it be against the law?


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## Pickman's model (Aug 27, 2012)

doesn't he look like a derelict?


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## DexterTCN (Aug 27, 2012)

scifisam said:


> It's in the article linked in the very first post of this thread. Why would I need to quote something you can also read?


You've obviously not read my posts, I can't see the conversation because the hawfa guy (you know him, right?) has a protected account.   So I asked if anyone actually knew what the conversation between them was.    It's not in the article, so wtf are you talking about?


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## scifisam (Aug 27, 2012)

DexterTCN said:


> You've obviously not read my posts, I can't see the conversation because the hawfa guy (you know him, right?) has a protected account. So I asked if anyone actually knew what the conversation between them was. It's not in the article, so wtf are you talking about?


 
No,you actually asked what he said. That is in the article. It's not necessary to see the entire conversation because there's no context in which whast he said is OK.


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## laptop (Aug 27, 2012)

DexterTCN said:


> I mean....you wouldn't take one line out of a conversation and condemn a man, would you?


 
He is being condemned for use of a term. Use, not mention, of the term, it is clear, from the line that is quoted.

The rest of the conversation is therefore irrelevant.


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## ItWillNeverWork (Aug 27, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> fucking read the link in the op and fuck off you dull cunt.
> 
> i never said I knew what had been said, you posted 'does anyone' and i said 'yes, someone does'.
> 
> now fuck off


 
Miserable git.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 27, 2012)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> Miserable git.


ignorant git

i am not miserable, i am angry


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## Wilf (Aug 28, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> ignorant git
> 
> i am not miserable, i am angry


 Yes, but you and Dexter have both been deliberately talking past each other, so it's not exactly _righteous_ anger is it?


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## DexterTCN (Aug 28, 2012)

laptop said:


> ...The rest of the conversation is therefore irrelevant.





scifisam said:


> ... It's not necessary to see the entire conversation....


 
Awesome


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## Fedayn (Aug 28, 2012)

Aaaaahhh it's Mr Neutral......


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## Pickman's model (Aug 28, 2012)

Wilf said:


> Yes, but you and Dexter have both been deliberately talking past each other, so it's not exactly _righteous_ anger is it?


he can't understand plain english and i got frustrated with his wilful fuckwittery. i never said anything about _righteous _anger. you make it sound like something out of pulp fiction


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## DexterTCN (Aug 28, 2012)

Fedayn said:


> Aaaaahhh it's Mr Neutral......


When did I ever say I was neutral about GG?   I've always liked him.


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## Metal Malcolm (Aug 28, 2012)

As a side point, I think that's the first time in about 20 years i've heard someone use that term and not be referring to the Aphex Twin track.


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## laptop (Aug 28, 2012)

Even Galloway wouldn't be stupid enough to use the "quoted out of context" gambit in this case.

Would he?


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## DexterTCN (Aug 28, 2012)

The lyrics aptly summarise this thread


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## DexterTCN (Aug 28, 2012)

laptop said:


> Even Galloway wouldn't be stupid enough to use the "quoted out of context" gambit in this case.
> 
> Would he?


I don't know the context...apart from it seems about football.    The grauniad did not post the conversation.   Seems unusual.


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## Wilf (Aug 28, 2012)

laptop said:


> Even Galloway wouldn't be stupid enough to use the "quoted out of context" gambit in this case.
> 
> Would he?


 The only conceivable response is an absolute humiliating unconditional apology.  Don't think Galloway is able to get his vocal chords round those though.  At this very moment I'm sure he will be crafting something about about being provoked by a sectarian. Either that or something very convoluted about colloquial language (that one I would _love_ to hear).


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## Firky (Aug 28, 2012)

DexterTCN said:


> I don't know the context...apart from it seems about football. The grauniad did not post the conversation. Seems unusual.


 
Edit.

Actually I can't be arsed.


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## Wilf (Aug 28, 2012)

DexterTCN said:


> I don't know the context...apart from it seems about football. The grauniad did not post the conversation. Seems unusual.


Come off it! Reaching for a term like 'windae-licker' is shitty, whatever the context, whatever the provocation (if there was any). It's also, for somebody who has just been slapped down by his party leader, _profoundly_ stupid.  He's not only a twat, he's losing his touch.


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## DexterTCN (Aug 28, 2012)

Wilf said:


> Come off it! Reaching for a term like 'windae-licker' is shitty, whatever the context, whatever the provocation (if there was any). It's also, for somebody who has just been slapped down by his party leader, _profoundly_ stupid. He's not only a twat, he's losing his touch.


I want to know what was said, ok


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## Wilf (Aug 28, 2012)

DexterTCN said:


> I want to know what was said, ok


 Okay, I'll put my best people on it.


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## Wilf (Aug 28, 2012)

Never thought I'd end up trailing through a politicians tweets  but Galloway's site: http://twitter.com/georgegalloway

... shows him sailing close to the wind on a few issues when he's bantering away. No idea what the following was in response to:



> *George Galloway*‏@*georgegalloway*
> @*misterjiggery* I'm wondering why..."bell-ends" are, well, uppermost in your mind.....


... but he's obviously never far from straying beyond the boundaries of PC and/or politician-speak. In general that's not a bad thing - if we are forced to have politicians I'd prefer to have one's that speak like everybody else - just that with the rape stuff and now the windae lickers, speaking his braynes reveals the shite that's inside. Even if the above wasn't homophobic, it's rather childish.


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## purenarcotic (Aug 28, 2012)

DexterTCN said:


> your reply 21 to my post 20 when I asked all you pleasant non-judgemental people to point out the conversation.
> 
> I mean....you wouldn't take one line out of a conversation and condemn a man, would you?


 
The article clearly shows the relevant tweets, it shows him calling somebody a 'windae-licker' - please tell me the context in which it would be appropriate to call somebody a 'window-licker'.  Perhaps you think it's cool to call somebody nigger, as long as it's in appropriate context.


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## DexterTCN (Aug 28, 2012)

purenarcotic said:


> ...  Perhaps you think it's cool to call somebody nigger....





purenarcotic said:


> ...  Perhaps you think it's cool to call somebody nigger....





purenarcotic said:


> ...  Perhaps you think it's cool to call somebody nigger....





purenarcotic said:


> ...  Perhaps you think it's cool to call somebody nigger....





purenarcotic said:


> ...  Perhaps you think it's cool to call somebody nigger....





purenarcotic said:


> ...  Perhaps you think it's cool to call somebody nigger....





purenarcotic said:


> ...  Perhaps you think it's cool to call somebody nigger....


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## ItWillNeverWork (Aug 28, 2012)




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## purenarcotic (Aug 28, 2012)

What a meaningful response.


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## cesare (Aug 28, 2012)

Posting "nigger" seven times in one post. Good grief. What on earth are you trying to achieve - a ban?


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## purenarcotic (Aug 28, 2012)

cesare said:


> Posting "nigger" seven times in one post. Good grief. What on earth are you trying to achieve - a ban?


 
I think they were attempting to show how a post could be taken out of context, but it's really not worked.


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## cesare (Aug 28, 2012)

purenarcotic said:


> I think they were attempting to show how a post could be taken out of context, but it's really not worked.


It hasn't worked at all.


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## cesare (Aug 28, 2012)

Dexter, the trouble with that post is that you are using a pejorative term that some people take offence at in any context, and you've multiplied it for the sake of your argument without any thought for someone reading that, repeated over and over again for the sake of effect, for your own ends, and someone might really take offence.


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## audiotech (Aug 28, 2012)

That's RESPECT out of the window.


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## ItWillNeverWork (Aug 28, 2012)

audiotech said:


> That's RESPECT out of the window.


 
They could always re-brand themselves as BADSEXUALETIQUETTE.


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## not-bono-ever (Aug 28, 2012)

GG inclreasingly seems to be intoxicated with his own fame. What gems of sense he may have produced in the past, he seems increasningly opportunistic with his pronouncements .That said,  I enjoyed his performance vs the new improved pro Iraq War Hitchens and his other one Vs the Senate committee re oil . Still a politician cunt though.


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## weltweit (Aug 28, 2012)

I have never heard the term "Window licker"... can anyone fill me in on the background to it?


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## Captain Hurrah (Aug 28, 2012)

Mentally and/or physically disabled kids licking the windows of the special bus, while on its way to the special school.


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## cesare (Aug 28, 2012)

weltweit said:


> I have never heard the term "Window licker"... can anyone fill me in on the background to it?



http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?defid=2109856&page=3&term=window+licker

Originally from the days of the variety club buses that used to take kids with learning disabilities on outings, I believe.

Hurrah's reply was better.


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## weltweit (Aug 28, 2012)

Oh, thanks Captain Hurrah & cesare. I definately had not heard of it but it is pretty offensive. I would have thought a politician would have expunged such a term from their vocabulary.

eta: back when I was at school, some kids used the term spastic in a similar way. It seems in my kid's school they don't use it these days.


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## cesare (Aug 28, 2012)

weltweit said:


> Oh, thanks Captain Hurrah & cesare. I definately had not heard of it but it is pretty offensive. I would have thought a politician would have expunged such a term from their vocabulary.
> 
> eta: back when I was at school, some kids used the term spastic in a similar way. It seems in my kid's school they don't use it these days.



Spastic was used in that way, yes. Spacker is also derived from it. The Spastics Society eventually rebranded and changed its name - nowadays it's called Scope although I think they may be rebranding again.


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## ItWillNeverWork (Aug 28, 2012)

I just got round to perusing GG's twitterings. He really isn't put in a flattering light by any of it. He comes across as a bickering, sarky troll, trolling his own twitter feed. Quite an accomplishment.


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## Captain Hurrah (Aug 28, 2012)

It was Spacker, when I was a kid. or Rem.


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## weltweit (Aug 28, 2012)

removed, no point ...


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## cesare (Aug 28, 2012)

It might be worth pointing out that kids use/d spastic/spacker in combination with retard - they weren't/aren't clear that the condition of cerebral palsy doesn't necessarily also mean that the person has learning difficulties too. For example, my cousin has cerebral palsy but is a lawyer.


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## DexterTCN (Aug 28, 2012)

cesare said:


> Posting "nigger" seven times in one post. Good grief. What on earth are you trying to achieve - a ban?


All I did was quote what pn posted.  I notice you had nothing to say about that.   I was pointing out how offensive it is, of course it's only offensive _if it's someone you don't like_ eh cesare.   Hypocrite.


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## cesare (Aug 28, 2012)

DexterTCN said:


> All I did was quote what pn posted.  I notice you had nothing to say about that.   I was pointing out how offensive it is, of course it's only offensive _if it's someone you don't like_ eh cesare.   Hypocrite.



 I've already replied why it was an ineffective and potentially very offensive way of proving your point. You're right, I don't like you at all. But that's only from the shit you've been posting recently, I hadn't noticed you before.

Wanker.


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## weltweit (Aug 28, 2012)

cesare said:


> It might be worth pointing out that kids use/d spastic/spacker in combination with retard - they weren't/aren't clear that the condition of cerebral palsy doesn't necessarily also mean that the person has learning difficulties too. For example, my cousin has cerebral palsy but is a lawyer.


 
I have no knowledge of cerebal palsy. I have never really come across it.


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## purenarcotic (Aug 28, 2012)

DexterTCN said:


> All I did was quote what pn posted. I notice you had nothing to say about that. I was pointing out how offensive it is, of course it's only offensive _if it's someone you don't like_ eh cesare. Hypocrite.


 
I don't see how it's offensive. Your previous posts on this thread seem to suggest that you think there is a context to his tweet that might make his comment appropriate.

I don't think there is ever an appropriate context to use a term like window licker directly towards somebody, and I certainly can't see how there could be a context within Galloway's tweet, and was simply wondering if perhaps you felt when people use other offensive terms towards other people it's acceptable as long as there's some sort of appropriate context.


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## weltweit (Aug 28, 2012)

purenarcotic said:


> I don't think there is ever an appropriate context to use a term like window licker, and I certainly can't see how there could be a ....


Except of course in the context of a post discussing its use.


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## purenarcotic (Aug 28, 2012)

weltweit said:


> Except of course in the context of a post discussing its use.


 
I have edited my post to clarify.


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## treelover (Aug 28, 2012)

I'm no PC obsessive, but in a era of disability hate crime, it just was crass and unprofessional and plain wrong...


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## treelover (Aug 28, 2012)

people seem to defending him on the increasingly odious Socialist Unity site (as they are with Assuange), Orwells comments about socialism's adherents comes to mind...


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## JHE (Aug 28, 2012)

I came across the term "window-licker" for the first time last year, when my then boss used it. She was not referring to anyone in particular, but was just suggesting (very inaccurately) that some of our clients might be "window lickers".

It is not a term I have any use for, but the outrage on this thread and elsewhere slightly surprises me. If I understand the term correctly it is a disrespectful way of describing people who have severe (or perhaps moderate to severe) learning disabilities.

Is it also unacceptable to use terms like "moron" and "cretin" as insults? It seems not. How is that so very different from calling someone a "window-licker"?

Sensibilities change. When I was young it was bang out of order in right-on circles to use the term "cunt" as an insult. It would be difficult to find a thread on U75 which does not contain that word.

If Urban75 is anything to go by (and I fear that on this subject it is):

It is bang out of order to use the term "window-licker"
It is perfectly acceptable - and utterly normal - to use "cunt" as an insult
It is OK to ascribe stupidity to people you disagree with, using words like "moron", "cretin" and so on. (In this U75 is simply following a long tradition of polemic - not least left-wing polemic.)
It's an odd combination of rules, isn't it?

I'm no fan of GG's. He's a vain gobby old Islamophile. However, I have no reason to think he is especially nasty to people with learning disabilities and doubt that he intended to be insulting to them. I think he was just doing what lots of people do on U75 and elsewhere. He was calling someone he was arguing with an idiot and chose to do so as strongly as he could.


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## cantsin (Aug 28, 2012)

JHE said:


> I came across the term "window-licker" for the first time last year, when my then boss used it. She was not referring to anyone in particular, but was just suggesting (very inaccurately) that some of our clients might be "window lickers".
> 
> It is not a term I have any use for, but the outrage on this thread and elsewhere slightly surprises me. If I understand the term correctly it is a disrespectful way of describing people who have severe (or perhaps moderate to severe) learning disabilities.
> 
> ...


 
I first came across 'Window Licker' 10 yrs ago or whatever cos of the Aphex Twin single - I / we always kinda had it down just as  something / someone v weird, as with the insanely brilliant tune/ video  - I hadnt really been 100 % aware of it's metamorphosis into a direct/known  alternative to 'spastic' / 'retard' etc, so don't know if GG would have either ?


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## spanglechick (Aug 28, 2012)

JHE said:


> I came across the term "window-licker" for the first time last year, when my then boss used it. She was not referring to anyone in particular, but was just suggesting (very inaccurately) that some of our clients might be "window lickers".
> 
> It is not a term I have any use for, but the outrage on this thread and elsewhere slightly surprises me. If I understand the term correctly it is a disrespectful way of describing people who have severe (or perhaps moderate to severe) learning disabilities.
> 
> ...


it isn't ok to use 'moron' or 'cretin', or 'retard' for that matter.  And I have seen many posts on urban 75 making this point, fwiw.


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## killer b (Aug 28, 2012)

cantsin said:


> I hadnt really been 100 % aware of it's metamorphosis into a direct/known alternative to 'spastic' / 'retard' etc, so don't know if GG would have either ?


it didn't 'metamorphsosise' into anything. it's always meant the same.

i don't think galloway is likely to be an aphex twin fan.


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## DexterTCN (Aug 28, 2012)

cesare said:


> I've already replied why it was an ineffective and potentially very offensive way of proving your point. You're right, I don't like you at all. But that's only from the shit you've been posting recently, I hadn't noticed you before.
> 
> Wanker.


Don't cry now.


----------



## cesare (Aug 28, 2012)

DexterTCN said:


> Don't cry now.



Don't flatter yourself.


----------



## dylanredefined (Aug 28, 2012)

treelover said:


> I'm no PC obsessive, but in a era of disability hate crime, it just was crass and unprofessional and plain wrong...


This there are lots of words which are in common use as insults which shouldn't be used and he should know better.
All he can do is apologise. The comment about rape is worse imho.


----------



## cantsin (Aug 28, 2012)

killer b said:


> *it didn't 'metamorphsosise' into anything. it's always meant the same.*
> 
> i don't think galloway is likely to be an aphex twin fan.


 
how do you know /judge that ? it didnt seem that way , living in London ( may vary regionally ) ?


----------



## Wilf (Aug 28, 2012)

DexterTCN said:


> All I did was quote what pn posted. I notice you had nothing to say about that. I was pointing out how offensive it is, of course it's only offensive _if it's someone you don't like_ eh cesare. Hypocrite.


 Last night you were making a _just_ valid point that it would be better to see what Galloway was responding to. I didn't _agree_ and like others couldn't see _any_ context or spat that justified using the term windae licker. Now though you are clutching at straws and making a desparate attempt to defend Galloway at all cost - and it's distasteful.


----------



## JHE (Aug 28, 2012)

spanglechick said:


> it isn't ok to use 'moron' or 'cretin', or 'retard' for that matter. And I have seen many posts on urban 75 making this point, fwiw.


 
I haven't seen those posts, but I'll take your word for it.  I don't think everyone has been won over to that view, though.

If GG had used the term "cretin" or "moron" instead of "windae licker", would there be an article in the Guardian about it or this thread on U75?

If "cretin", "moron" and "retard" are unacceptable, what about "idiot"?

What about "fool" (which I use)?


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 28, 2012)

much less offensive than your fucking hilarious 'islamised' spelling like 'tower hamladesh' etc


----------



## killer b (Aug 28, 2012)

cantsin said:


> how do you know /judge that ? it didnt seem that way , living in London ( may vary regionally ) ?


galloway wasn't referring to the aphex twin song. your understanding of the word is irrelevant.


----------



## cantsin (Aug 28, 2012)

killer b said:


> galloway wasn't referring to the aphex twin song. your understanding of the word is irrelevant.


 
i'll repeat, how do you *know* that that the meaning of this word / phrase hasn't changed over time, like most words do ? when did you first become aware of this word / it's meaning ? how come you're thebig authority on this ?


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 28, 2012)

JHE said:


> I came across the term "window-licker" for the first time last year, when my then boss used it. She was not referring to anyone in particular, but was just suggesting (very inaccurately) that some of our clients might be "window lickers".
> 
> It is not a term I have any use for, but the outrage on this thread and elsewhere slightly surprises me. If I understand the term correctly it is a disrespectful way of describing people who have severe (or perhaps moderate to severe) learning disabilities.
> 
> ...


What's wrong with being an islamophile? Is there something you'd like to tell us?


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 28, 2012)

treelover said:


> people seem to defending him on the increasingly odious Socialist Unity site (as they are with Assuange), Orwells comments about socialism's adherents comes to mind...


Not that orwell was making an original point; cf christian in bierce's devil's dictionary


----------



## Wilf (Aug 28, 2012)

JHE - I'm sure you're right, Galloway _was_ using the term as the strongest insult he could find, but he also appeared to be deliberately making it a learning disabilities and/or 'stupidity insult if you look at the full tweet:

 "you badly need medical help son. Will decent Rangers fans please substitute this windae-licker … "

You are also right about terms like moron, though it's strange that you should refer to their unacceptability to seemingly mitigate what Galloway said.  Yes, people on uurban should behave a lot better, shouldn't use bullying language - yes, yes, yes - but it's irrelevant to what Galloway said. The bottom line is that 'windown licker' is clearly offensive and he is saying it at a time when the disabled are under attack.


----------



## killer b (Aug 28, 2012)

cantsin said:


> i'll repeat, how do you *know* that that the meaning of this word / phrase hasn't changed over time, like most words do ? when did you first become aware of this word / it's meaning ? how come you're thebig authority on this ?


erm. ok.


----------



## ElizabethofYork (Aug 28, 2012)

Better than being a hand-licker.


----------



## weepiper (Aug 28, 2012)

The Aphex Twin song is apparently named as a translation of the French for window-shopping




			
				wikipedia said:
			
		

> In the video, two foul-mouthed young men (a Latino and an African American) in Los Angeles are window shopping for women (referred to in the end credits as "hoochies"); the French term for window shopping is faire du lèche-vitrine, which literally translates to "licking the windows"


 
Seeing as Galloway was quite clearly using it as a term of abuse for a mentally-challenged person, I think we can discount it.


----------



## killer b (Aug 28, 2012)

hmm. i'm a little dubious of that explanation tbh.


----------



## 8ball (Aug 28, 2012)

I am so offended - is there a Facebook link I can click on or something?


----------



## weepiper (Aug 28, 2012)

killer b said:


> hmm. i'm a little dubious of that explanation tbh.


 
aye me too, but _Galloway_ was certainly using it in the same way that people might use 'mong' or 'spaz', so whether anyone else understands it differently is pretty irrelevant


----------



## killer b (Aug 28, 2012)

yep, agreed.


----------



## Wilf (Aug 28, 2012)

8ball said:


> I am so offended - is there a Facebook link I can click on or something?


 Probably is, but what's your point?


----------



## cantsin (Aug 28, 2012)

cantsin said: ↑
_i'll repeat, how do you *know* that that the meaning of this word / phrase hasn't changed over time, like most words do ? when did you first become aware of this word / it's meaning ? how come you're thebig authority on this ?_​ 


killer b said:


> erm. ok.


 
thanks for clearing that up


----------



## audiotech (Aug 28, 2012)

'...4,5,6,7 all good cretins go to heaven'.


----------



## DexterTCN (Aug 28, 2012)

Wilf said:


> ...Now though you are clutching at straws and making a desparate attempt to defend Galloway at all cost - and it's distasteful.


Where's that then?  I've not defended anyone, I've only asked for the whole conversation.   

Frankly I found pn's n*****r post to be rather tasteless and uncalled for....must just be me.


----------



## 8ball (Aug 28, 2012)

Wilf said:


> Probably is, but what's your point?


 
I need a button to click on for self-validation.


----------



## cantsin (Aug 28, 2012)

weepiper said:


> The Aphex Twin song is apparently named as a translation of the French for window-shopping
> 
> 
> 
> Seeing as Galloway was quite clearly using it as a term of abuse for a mentally-challenged person, I think we can discount it.


 
so it seems that the phrase had a completely different meaning when I and most others would have first heard it, despite noted linguist Killer B's bold statements to the contrary. 

And in case Killer needs it spelled out more clearly, I'm not for one minute saying the above is how Galloway was using it, am just pointing out it's meaning has seemed to have changed / doesn't necessarily have some rigid, narrowly defined  meaning that everyone shares .


----------



## cantsin (Aug 28, 2012)

killer b said:


> hmm. i'm a little dubious of that explanation tbh.


 
lol, not a SINGLE fact / reference from yourself to back up your claims, but of course "dubious " of a clear Wiki reference contradicting them .


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 28, 2012)

dude you're barking up the wrong tree here I know people who grew up in the 70s who used that phrase. It predates Aphex Twin. No I cannot verify this empirically but take my word for it, I like to consider myself an authority on the etymology of insults and this one has meant 'handicapped/special' since its inception


----------



## Frankie Jack (Aug 28, 2012)

cantsin said:


> I first came across 'Window Licker' 10 yrs ago or whatever cos of the Aphex Twin single - I / we always kinda had it down just as something / someone v weird, as with the insanely brilliant tune/ video - I hadnt really been 100 % aware of it's metamorphosis into a direct/known alternative to 'spastic' / 'retard' etc, so don't know if GG would have either ?


Galloway knows exactly how offensive his tweet was. He used it to offend whoever it was aimed at.


----------



## killer b (Aug 28, 2012)

cantsin said:


> so it seems that the phrase had a completely different meaning when I and most others would have first heard it, despite noted linguist Killer B's bold statements to the contrary.


it didn't you penis. it's an old perjorative for mentally & physically disabled children. was regularly used in the playground in the 1980s, and doubtless long before.


----------



## Wilf (Aug 28, 2012)

DC and FJ - spot on. In fact I'm genuinely surprised some people on here have never heard it before.


----------



## 8ball (Aug 28, 2012)

cantsin said:


> lol, not a SINGLE fact / reference from yourself to back up your daft claims, but of course "dubious " of a clear Wiki reference contradicting them .


 
The wiki reference doesn't contradict that, just makes a reference to conversation in the video.

It doesn't even try to imply that the French expression is where the name comes from, and the weird face in the video is like the HR Giger sketch (called 'The Windowlickers', and referenced in the Wiki article).

So you have the expression, predating all of this, as well as the sketch, and the French expression as an aside in the video. I think the French expression is most likely to be the 'just chucked in' reference here.


----------



## audiotech (Aug 28, 2012)

I've had to look this term up today because I haven't heard it before now. This thread is starting to lose the plot and turning into PC central.


----------



## weltweit (Aug 28, 2012)

Wilf said:


> DC and FJ - spot on. In fact I'm genuinely surprised some people on here have never heard it before.


When I was at school, spastic was an insult, today at schools, gay or retard is used amongst many others including paedo (round here anyhow).


----------



## JHE (Aug 28, 2012)

weltweit said:


> When I was at school, spastic was an insult...


 
It wasn't just the kids at my school. When our PE teacher was annoyed with us, he used to shout that we were all 'spastics'.  He'd be sacked nowadays!


----------



## killer b (Aug 28, 2012)

audiotech said:


> I've had to look this term up today because I haven't heard it before now. This thread is starting to lose the plot and turning into PC central.


yes, it's much less offensive because you haven't heard of it before. you prize bellend.


----------



## audiotech (Aug 28, 2012)

killer b said:


> yes, it's much less offensive because you haven't heard of it before. you prize bellend.


 
You missed the point. I'm offended now.


----------



## Wilf (Aug 28, 2012)

http://twitter.com/georgegalloway

He looks to have gone uncharacteristically quiet - seemingly turning down a request to justify himself to the grauniad and refusing to get into it in response to other tweets.  May have been told to shut up by Yaqoob of course, but keeping quiet isn't his natural territory.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 28, 2012)

cantsin said:


> i'll repeat, how do you *know* that that the meaning of this word / phrase hasn't changed over time, like most words do ? when did you first become aware of this word / it's meaning ? how come you're thebig authority on this ?


 
It still means exactly the same thing as it did 20 years ago: Window licker = someone on a Sunshine* bus with severe learning difficulties whose behaviour might cause them to lick the bus window.
Make whatever apologia you like, it's a very specific insult that *still* only has a single meaning.

*Buses provided to mental health educators and charities by the Variety Club of Great Britain


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 28, 2012)

Metal Malcolm said:


> As a side point, I think that's the first time in about 20 years i've heard someone use that term and not be referring to the Aphex Twin track.


 
I've heard it used by people (adults and yoof) in south-east Kent and East Sussex fairly recently (last couple of years) as a term of abuse, so it's still in play.


----------



## IC3D (Aug 28, 2012)

I doubt George would be making homophobic and sexist comments if he needed the trad left anymore, his comments probably calculated not to offend the conservative god bods in his constituency, he's only ever cared about one thing anyway


----------



## Wilf (Aug 28, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> It still means exactly the same thing as it did 20 years ago: Window licker = someone on a Sunshine* bus with severe learning difficulties whose behaviour might cause them to lick the bus window.
> Make whatever apologia you like, it's a very specific insult that *still* only has a single meaning.
> 
> *Buses provided to mental health educators and charities by the Variety Club of Great Britain


 Yep, whatever else this is about, it's not about contested meanings. Some people may not have heard the term, but for anyone who has it's fucking obvious what Galloway meant.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 28, 2012)

I see that you're being your usual "challenging" self today. 
Did you not see the post on page one where someone said that part of the twitter convo is inaccessible?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 28, 2012)

laptop said:


> Even Galloway wouldn't be stupid enough to use the "quoted out of context" gambit in this case.
> 
> Would he?


 
No.

He'll go for the "I was so passionately annoyed that I foolishly let abuse get the better of me, for which I unreservedly apologise" gambit.


----------



## DexterTCN (Aug 28, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> I see that you're being your usual "challenging" self today.
> Did you not see the post on page one where someone said that part of the twitter convo is inaccessible?


yes I saw that...it was me.


----------



## Wilf (Aug 28, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> No.
> 
> He'll go for the "I was so passionately annoyed that I foolishly let abuse get the better of me, for which I unreservedly apologise" gambit.


My guess too. In fact he's probably been told to already but can't bring himself to do it yet (give or take the time difference - he's in Indonesia apparently). Not sure what the power dynamic is between him and Yaqoob - leader vs 'star'? All that aside, I'd also guess he _*was*_ provoked by something pretty nasty, but it won't get close to excusing him going for that as a reply.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 28, 2012)

weltweit said:


> I have no knowledge of cerebal palsy. I have never really come across it.


 
Cerebral Palsy is a condition often caused at or during birth due to various factors. It is mostly characterised by physical impairment (motor control issues with or without limb spasticity) rather than cognitive impairment, and unless someone has a particularly bad case, it's not highly visible.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 28, 2012)

DexterTCN said:


> yes I saw that...it was me.


 
In which case why infer things from that conversation?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 28, 2012)

cantsin said:


> I first came across 'Window Licker' 10 yrs ago or whatever cos of the Aphex Twin single - I / we always kinda had it down just as something / someone v weird, as with the insanely brilliant tune/ video - I hadnt really been 100 % aware of it's metamorphosis into a direct/known alternative to 'spastic' / 'retard' etc, so don't know if GG would have either ?


 
Given his age, he should have been, unless he's spent the last 3-4 decades in pristine isolation.


----------



## gunneradt (Aug 28, 2012)

Ive heard it used by many teachers in the last 6 months.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 28, 2012)

JHE said:


> It wasn't just the kids at my school. When our PE teacher was annoyed with us, he used to shout that we were all 'spastics'.  He'd be sacked nowadays!


In post 112 I asked you what was wrong with being an islamophile. Would you care to.say?


----------



## Wilf (Aug 28, 2012)

gunneradt said:


> Ive heard it used by many teachers in the last 6 months.


 Really?  Not disputing that you are saying, but some details would be good.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 28, 2012)

gunneradt said:


> Ive heard it used by many teachers in the last 6 months.


 
Of course you have.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 28, 2012)

Wilf said:


> Really? Not disputing that you are saying, but some doubtless invented details would be good.


 
CFY.


----------



## gunneradt (Aug 28, 2012)

Wilf said:


> Really? Not disputing that you are saying, but some details would be good.


 
Like what kind of details?  They use it to describe the kids that sit in the corner and are impossible to teach anything to mainly....


----------



## cantsin (Aug 28, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> It still means exactly the same thing as it did 20 years ago: Window licker = someone on a Sunshine* bus with severe learning difficulties whose behaviour might cause them to lick the bus window.
> Make whatever apologia you like, it's a very specific insult that *still* only has a single meaning.
> 
> *Buses provided to mental health educators and charities by the Variety Club of Great Britain


 
ok, thanks, that makes it all clear where it came from, and so can see where the date of origin etc might be...if I could be arsed , I could point out that as someone who has always thought they roughly kept up with daft ( and otherwise) playground/street vernacular, I'd completely missed the meaning/origin of this ( never heard it before Aphex) , so it wouldn't seem inconceivable that someone like GG wld also also not necc.be fully up on what it meant outside of basic 'idiot/fuckwit' type insult....and just not 100m % sure GG would so obviously leave himself open to more grief from the "left " ( dont tell LLETSA I said this) ...but not sure either way tbh .


----------



## Wilf (Aug 28, 2012)

gunneradt said:


> Like what kind of details? They use it to describe the kids that sit in the corner and are impossible to teach anything to mainly....


 Wasn't after names and dates, but whether they've said it in a classroom? Staffroom?  UK/elsewhere?


----------



## Frankie Jack (Aug 28, 2012)

gunneradt said:


> Like what kind of details? They use it to describe the kids that sit in the corner and are impossible to teach anything to mainly....


Then it's about time those 'teachers' were shown the error of their ways!!!


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 28, 2012)

Problem is I don't think Galloway gives a shit about what the rest of the left thinks, he was always an insufferable prick but since nicking that labour safe seat his ego seems to have swelled even more. In defiance of the laws of physics.


----------



## gunneradt (Aug 28, 2012)

Wilf said:


> Wasn't after names and dates, but whether they've said it in a classroom? Staffroom? UK/elsewhere?


 
A christmas party actually


----------



## gunneradt (Aug 28, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> Then it's about time those 'teachers' were shown the error of their ways!!!


 
yes, lets criticise them all for having to cope with kids that should be in special schools and whom they do the very best with at all times.  And one of the kids did actually 'lick windows'.


----------



## Wilf (Aug 28, 2012)

gunneradt said:


> yes, lets criticise them all for having to cope with kids that should be in special schools and whom they do the very best with at all times. And one of the kids did actually 'lick windows'.


 Yes, yes, I have an _*absolute certainty*_ that FJ was making a blanket attack on every single teacher in the land and not just the ones at your party. Happy Christmas.


----------



## Fedayn (Aug 28, 2012)

cantsin said:


> ok, thanks, that makes it all clear where it came from, and so can see where the date of origin etc might be...if I could be arsed , I could point out that as someone who has always thought they roughly kept up with daft ( and otherwise) playground/street vernacular, I'd completely missed the meaning/origin of this ( never heard it before Aphex) , so it wouldn't seem inconceivable that someone like GG wld also also not necc.be fully up on what it meant outside of basic 'idiot/fuckwit' type insult....and just not 100m % sure GG would so obviously leave himself open to more grief from the "left " ( dont tell LLETSA I said this) ...but not sure either way tbh .


 
I first head the term 'windae licker' when I came to Glasgow. It was, sadly still is, a rather well used term of abuse. Galloway with his continuing claims of 'street cred' and being a former Labour MP in Glasgow would well know the word, even as far as the vernacular way of writing it as he does in his twitter. Galloway knows full well the meaning and impact of the word, he can't bleat muc h longer, he's a fucking odious little self-publicist with his tongue rammed so far up the Assad Ba'athist regimes arse* he can't see what he's writing... Well that's a more valid excuse than the one he'll use.

* That bit is true mind.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Aug 28, 2012)

Galloway ws born and raised not many miles from where I was and is only a few years older. He knows exactly what winade licker means. He even wrote it in the Scottish vernacular. It 'appears' to be an insult aimed at someone he suspects to be a Rangers supporter. The twat has gobbed off plenty of times about Old Firm sectarianism, yet, here he is throwing disablist insults at someone he suspects is a Rangers supporter. 

*George Galloway* ‏@*georgegalloway* 
@*Hawfa* you badly need medical help son. Will decent Rangers fans please substitute this windae-licker...


----------



## Fedayn (Aug 28, 2012)

gunneradt said:


> Ive heard it used by many teachers in the last 6 months.


 
Then I hope the parents of one of those kids hears them say it....


----------



## xenon (Aug 28, 2012)

Jesus fucking christ. Course Galloway new what Window Licker means.

e2a in response to what cantsin was saying.


----------



## Fedayn (Aug 28, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> Galloway ws born and raised not many miles from where I was and is only a few years older. He knows exactly what winade licker means. He even wrote it in the Scottish vernacular. It 'appears' to be an insult aimed at someone he suspects to be a Rangers supporter. The twat has gobbed off plenty of times about Old Firm sectarianism, yet, here he is throwing disablist insults at someone he suspects is a Rangers supporter.
> 
> *George Galloway* ‏@*georgegalloway*
> @*Hawfa* you badly need medical help son. Will decent Rangers fans please substitute this windae-licker...


 
He used it in reference to a Rangers fan? DexterTCN will be upset, he's awfy defensive of those gentle souls from Ibrox....


----------



## cesare (Aug 28, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> Galloway ws born and raised not many miles from where I was and is only a few years older. He knows exactly what winade licker means. He even wrote it in the Scottish vernacular. It 'appears' to be an insult aimed at someone he suspects to be a Rangers supporter. The twat has gobbed off plenty of times about Old Firm sectarianism, yet, here he is throwing disablist insults at someone he suspects is a Rangers supporter.
> 
> *George Galloway* ‏@*georgegalloway*
> @*Hawfa* you badly need medical help son. Will decent Rangers fans please substitute this windae-licker...


 
Yes, that's the tweet that was quoted in full, in the Guardian article in the OP


----------



## Frankie Jack (Aug 28, 2012)

gunneradt said:


> yes, lets criticise them all for having to cope with kids that should be in special schools and whom they do the very best with at all times. And one of the kids did actually 'lick windows'.


Get a grip.. Where was I criticising ""them all for having to cope with kids that should be in special schools"" and WTF does that statement even mean..??


----------



## Wilf (Aug 28, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> Get a grip.. Where was I criticising ""them all for having to cope with kids that should be in special schools"" and WTF does that statement even mean..??


 It was probably the most incompetent attempt at deflecting criticism I've seen on urban for some years.


----------



## gunneradt (Aug 28, 2012)

Fedayn said:


> Then I hope the parents of one of those kids hears them say it....


 
The child (in reference) is like that due to the parent's drug abuse while pregnant - she would neither care nor notice.


----------



## Fedayn (Aug 28, 2012)

gunneradt said:


> The child (in reference) is like that due to the parent's drug abuse while pregnant - she would neither care nor notice.


 
Of course makes it so much more appropriate for a teacher to use such a term doesn't it?!


----------



## Frankie Jack (Aug 28, 2012)

gunneradt said:


> The child (in reference) is like that due to the parent's drug abuse while pregnant - she would neither care nor notice.


riiiiight. So lets get all those children with behavioural/mental/disability issues rounded up into 'Special' schools so mainstream, thoughtless and insulting educators won't have the need to call them offensive and unwarranted names then eh.


----------



## DexterTCN (Aug 28, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> In which case why infer things from that conversation?


I didn't really.   I inferred it was about football because of the one line we had.  

Somehow this leads to purenarcotic posting 'n****r'.

If it was a football conversation there's some two-faced people in this thread.


----------



## weepiper (Aug 28, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> riiiiight. So lets get all those children with behavioural/mental/disability issues rounded up into 'Special' schools so mainstream, thoughtless and insulting educators won't have the need to call them offensive and unwarranted names then eh.


 
Innit. My youngest nephew is autistic and goes to a mainstream primary school. Autistic kids are very sensory-driven and yeah, actually, they do lick things a lot of the time. Since he was old enough to be out of a pushchair he's sucked his sleeves, licked shop counters, shopping trolley handles, you name it. Despite this he's doing very well at school, in the top set for maths for example. If I knew one of his teachers dismissed him as a window-licker? I'd report them to the papers and the council and I'd do my level best to get them sacked.


----------



## Schmetterling (Aug 28, 2012)

Galloway is an arsewipe.


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 28, 2012)

DexterTCN said:


> I didn't really. I inferred it was about football because of the one line we had.
> 
> Somehow this leads to purenarcotic posting 'n****r'.
> 
> If it was a football conversation there's some two-faced people in this thread.


 

you hujanus


----------



## gunneradt (Aug 28, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> riiiiight. So lets get all those children with behavioural/mental/disability issues rounded up into 'Special' schools so mainstream, thoughtless and insulting educators won't have the need to call them offensive and unwarranted names then eh.


 
Personally, I think theyre much better taught by specialists in special schools.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Aug 28, 2012)

gunneradt said:


> Personally, I think theyre much better taught by specialists in special schools.





DotCommunist said:


> you hujanus


Dotty said it perfectly for me.


----------



## gunneradt (Aug 28, 2012)

weepiper said:


> Innit. My youngest nephew is autistic and goes to a mainstream primary school. Autistic kids are very sensory-driven and yeah, actually, they do lick things a lot of the time. Since he was old enough to be out of a pushchair he's sucked his sleeves, licked shop counters, shopping trolley handles, you name it. Despite this he's doing very well at school, in the top set for maths for example. If I knew one of his teachers dismissed him as a window-licker? I'd report them to the papers and the council and I'd do my level best to get them sacked.


 
You forget (or may not realise) the difficulties that come with teaching kids like this in mainstream schools.  A degree of frustration is understandable.


----------



## _angel_ (Aug 28, 2012)

gunneradt said:


> Personally, I think theyre much better taught by specialists in special schools.


How do you know this.
Maybe just maybe "they" are not a homogenous lump and are different people with different needs. Some kids will settle into a mainstream school others will need a special setting. FWIW they seem to be backtracking fast on the 'inclusion' once they realised doing it properly would actually cost more than keeping special schools open.


----------



## weepiper (Aug 28, 2012)

gunneradt said:


> You forget (or may not realise) the difficulties that come with teaching kids like this in mainstream schools. A degree of frustration is understandable.


 
Yes, I, as the aunt of a child with autism, may not realise the difficulties. Thank goodness you're here to set me straight.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Aug 28, 2012)

gunneradt said:


> You forget (or may not realise) the difficulties that come with teaching kids like this in mainstream schools. A degree of frustration is understandable.


Are you a teacher? Do you let rip with your frustrations? I thought you were forces.


----------



## Wilf (Aug 28, 2012)

gunneradt said:


> You forget (or may not realise) the difficulties that come with teaching kids like this in mainstream schools. A degree of frustration is understandable.


If you are suggesting the comment [at the party] came out of frustration, you should stick with that - rather than making the silly claim Frankie was attacking the teaching profession.


----------



## gunneradt (Aug 28, 2012)

_angel_ said:


> How do you know this.
> Maybe just maybe "they" are not a homogenous lump and are different people with different needs. Some kids will settle into a mainstream school others will need a special setting. FWIW they seem to be backtracking fast on the 'inclusion' once they realised doing it properly would actually cost more than keeping special schools open.


 
Well...the teachers do their best.  They are meant to teach, not be counsellors - or even special needs teachers.  And most of the ESAs are not trained either.


----------



## gunneradt (Aug 28, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> Are you a teacher? Do you let rip with your frustrations? I thought you were forces.


 
I assure you I am neither


----------



## Wilf (Aug 28, 2012)

gunneradt said:


> Well...the teachers do their best. They are meant to teach, not be counsellors - or even special needs teachers. And most of the ESAs are not trained either.


 hole/digging


----------



## _angel_ (Aug 28, 2012)

In some ways, keeping all kids with autism together is counter productive as they all start copying each others traits. Since mid son was placed in a 'general special needs' class and not the autism class his speech has improved. Having a talking younger brother might also be helping. He would be one of the ones that would benefit from a mainstream interaction. Sadly they can't seem to do this because I guess- funding.


----------



## gunneradt (Aug 28, 2012)

Wilf said:


> hole/digging


 
Not really.  I couldn't really give two hoots what people call each other on what ever social networking site.  The world is very sensitive these days.  People cry over what people call others on twitter or facebook.  I think people were made of sterner stuff years ago.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Aug 28, 2012)

gunneradt said:


> I assure you I am neither


Then where does your insight into the best placements for children with behavioural/mental/disability issues come from then? Or are they *just your opinion*?


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 28, 2012)

I know a young lad with autism, 7- he's not diagnosed but everyone on the proffesional side is saying it. Cognitive difficulties. There's some sort of 'midway' language thats semi sign like they teach him to associate signs and signals etc and it really improves his cognition abilities. I've known him for 5 years and only the other day he called me by my first name. Not in reference to anything. He tapped my hand and said 'Jason'. At first I thought he wanted help with his bike (again) or something, but no- he was literally just identifying me by my name.

What use is it to seperate such kids off in'special' schools? surely cognitive intergration can only come by associating with 'normal' kids?*

*no kids are normal they are all weird as fuck and I'm never breeding


----------



## gunneradt (Aug 28, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> Then where does your insight into the best placements for children with behavioural/mental/disability issues come from then? Or are they *just your opinion*?


 
They are my opinion - which is largely formed from what i hear from the many teachers I know at primary/junior level.


----------



## Wilf (Aug 28, 2012)

gunneradt said:


> Not really. I couldn't really give two hoots what people call each other on what ever social networking site. The world is very sensitive these days. People cry over what people call others on twitter or facebook. I think people were made of sterner stuff years ago.


 I was referring to your overly narrow version of what teaching involves.  Also, ESAs very often _are_ trained in and specialise in special needs.


----------



## gunneradt (Aug 28, 2012)

DotCommunist said:


> I know a young lad with autism, 7- he's not diagnosed but everyone on the proffesional side is saying it. Cognitive difficulties. There's some sort of 'midway' language thats semi sign like they teach him to associate signs and signals etc and it really improves his cognition abilities. I've known him for 5 years and only the other day he called me by my first name. Not in reference to anything. He tapped my hand and said 'Jason'. At first I thought he wanted help with his bike (again) or something, but no- he was literally just identifying me by my name.
> 
> What use is it to seperate such kids off in'special' schools? surely cognitive intergration can only come by associating with 'normal' kids?*
> 
> *no kids are normal they are all weird as fuck and I'm never breeding


 
The difficulty though is that when there is one child like this in a class it can take a huge amount of time and effort to run the class properly.  There are also huge health and safety issues with some of the more extreme kids.  I certainly wouldn't want to have to watch some of them.


----------



## gunneradt (Aug 28, 2012)

Wilf said:


> I was referring to your overly narrow version of what teaching involves. Also, ESAs very often _are_ trained in and specialise in special needs.


 
ESAs may be 'trained' but they generally really are only amateurs in this field.


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 28, 2012)

SEN classroom assistants. It's not an esoteric concept


----------



## Wilf (Aug 28, 2012)

gunneradt said:


> The difficulty though is that when there is one child like this in a class it can take a huge amount of time and effort to run the class properly. There are also huge health and safety issues with some of the more extreme kids. I certainly wouldn't want to have to watch some of them.


 If this were heading into a discussion on the shortage of resources around special needs and the impact of things like league tables, you'd get no argument from me.  The point we actually _are_ arguing - I'm no longer sure.


----------



## gunneradt (Aug 28, 2012)

Wilf said:


> If this were heading into a discussion on the shortage of resources around special needs and the impact of things like league tables, you'd get no argument from me. The point we actually _are_ arguing - I'm no longer sure.


 
All a matter of opinion.  We were taught 40 to a class by one teacher in the 70s.  It's now 2 teachers to 30 ish and it seems to me that more kids go up to secondary school without being able to read and write properly.  I've no idea where it all goes wrong.

I went to a grammar school when the 11+ wasn't quite as tough as it is now which meant it had more of a cross section of standards.  Yet one thing Ive noticed is that even the kids that were generally thought of as totally dumb seem to write very well when Ive come across them on various social networking sites.  Maybe this is totally subjective on my part.

I doubt things will ever improve much however.


----------



## Vintage Paw (Aug 28, 2012)

Before this blew up, I had never heard the term Galloway used. Despite that, I was not so arrogant as to assume that because I didn't know what it meant, it therefore could not cause offence to others or was just a big deal about nothing.

Further to that, it's not the be all and end all whether Galloway knew the etymology of that term or not (and we can all look to his past behaviour to decide in the meantime for ourselves whether he likely did or not). He spat it out with the intent to cause offence, and the onus lies with him to think about the words he uses beforehand, and, if it genuinely was a stupid mistake, apologise after the fact for being thoughtless and offensive, and to think harder in the future about the words he uses.


----------



## _angel_ (Aug 28, 2012)

DotCommunist said:


> I know a young lad with autism, 7- he's not diagnosed but everyone on the proffesional side is saying it. Cognitive difficulties. There's some sort of 'midway' language thats semi sign like they teach him to associate signs and signals etc and it really improves his cognition abilities. I've known him for 5 years and only the other day he called me by my first name. Not in reference to anything. He tapped my hand and said 'Jason'. At first I thought he wanted help with his bike (again) or something, but no- he was literally just identifying me by my name.
> 
> What use is it to seperate such kids off in'special' schools? surely cognitive intergration can only come by associating with 'normal' kids?*
> 
> *no kids are normal they are all weird as fuck and I'm never breeding


There are good reasons to keep special schools open, with the proviso that no one should be forced into one if they can reasonably make adjustments and go mainstream. 
Smaller class sizes, the whole school knowing who your kid is, that's something you don't get in most mainstreams (esp not high schools that are scarily huge). Who would know my son was escaping out of a class in a mainstream school? Who would know he has no road awareness or danger, he looks perfectly normal.
That said, I'd really like some maistream input for the middle boy. It remains the best provision for the older one is definitely special schools. Btw they also separate the special needs groups out according to disability and keep the emotionally damaged kids separate.


----------



## audiotech (Aug 28, 2012)

Vintage Paw said:


> Before this blew up, I had never heard the term Galloway used. Despite that, I was not so arrogant as to assume that because I didn't know what it meant, it therefore could not cause offence to others or was just a big deal about nothing.


 
Some have posted that they have never come across the term, including me. I can assure you that I made no such assumption.

A further point made by me was to do with bringing in other words. In particular, the word "cretin" and apparently, to one poster at least, this too is offensive and should not be used. Sod that.

Galloway has made an absolute crass statement and should watch his mouth is what I think.


----------



## spanglechick (Aug 28, 2012)

gunneradt said:


> All a matter of opinion. We were taught 40 to a class by one teacher in the 70s. It's now 2 teachers to 30 ish and it seems to me that more kids go up to secondary school without being able to read and write properly. I've no idea where it all goes wrong.
> 
> I went to a grammar school when the 11+ wasn't quite as tough as it is now which meant it had more of a cross section of standards. Yet one thing Ive noticed is that even the kids that were generally thought of as totally dumb seem to write very well when Ive come across them on various social networking sites. Maybe this is totally subjective on my part.
> 
> I doubt things will ever improve much however.


where are there 2 teachers between 30 kids?  I'd like to apply to this teaching nirvana! it must have the most teaching applications of any school in the land, for i have never in my horribly long teaching career heard of any such thing in mainstream education. Or are you referring to learning support assistants?

on your main point - I guarrantee I know more teachers than you, and have spent many, many more hours getting pissed with teachers. of course there is venting and letting off steam, but i have NEVER, in all of those many, many years at a wide variety of schools, heard a teacher describe a child as a window lciker/retard/whatever.  Those kids with severe learning difficulties are almost never mentioned, actually.  The kids we tend to bitch about are the smug little shitbags with an over-inflated sense of their own importance, abilities, and power.  Even that pales ibnto insignificance beside the amount of time we spend bitching about the bosses/government/exam boards etc. 

These many teachers who were all talking about this one child and all chose (by your account) to use the term window licker...  all i can assure you is that they are incredibly, dare i say - suspiciously, rare.


----------



## Fedayn (Aug 28, 2012)

DexterTCN said:


> If it was a football conversation there's some two-faced people in this thread.


 
Such as who Mr Neutral?


----------



## laptop (Aug 28, 2012)

audiotech said:


> A further point made by me was to do with bringing in other words like "cretin" and apparently, to one other poster at least, this too is offensive and should not be used. Sod that.


 
As I understand it, "cretin" is derived from "_chrétien_", in the sense of "innocent fool", so may be fair game 



audiotech said:


> Galloway has made an absolute crass statement and should watch his mouth is what I think.


 
This.


----------



## gunneradt (Aug 28, 2012)

I didnt say


spanglechick said:


> where are there 2 teachers between 30 kids? I'd like to apply to this teaching nirvana! it must have the most teaching applications of any school in the land, for i have never in my horribly long teaching career heard of any such thing in mainstream education. Or are you referring to learning support assistants?
> 
> on your main point - I guarrantee I know more teachers than you, and have spent many, many more hours getting pissed with teachers. of course there is venting and letting off steam, but i have NEVER, in all of those many, many years at a wide variety of schools, heard a teacher describe a child as a window lciker/retard/whatever. Those kids with severe learning difficulties are almost never mentioned, actually. The kids we tend to bitch about are the smug little shitbags with an over-inflated sense of their own importance, abilities, and power. Even that pales ibnto insignificance beside the amount of time we spend bitching about the bosses/government/exam boards etc.
> 
> These many teachers who were all talking about this one child and all chose (by your account) to use the term window licker... all i can assure you is that they are incredibly, dare i say - suspiciously, rare.


 
I didn't say 'all' used that but Ive heard many teachers use statements/phrases like that.  It probably depends where you teach.


----------



## barney_pig (Aug 28, 2012)

gunneradt said:


> I didnt say
> 
> 
> I didn't say 'all' used that but Ive heard many teachers use statements/phrases like that. It probably depends where you teach.


where do you teach?


----------



## audiotech (Aug 28, 2012)

laptop said:


> As I understand it, "cretin" is derived from "_chrétien_", in the sense of "innocent fool", so may be fair game


 
Two friends held a regular punk night called the "Cretin Hop". We were all cretins on the night.


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 28, 2012)

barney_pig said:


> where do you teach?


 

Haute de Garrene


----------



## nino_savatte (Aug 28, 2012)

laptop said:


> As I understand it, "cretin" is derived from "_chrétien_", in the sense of "innocent fool", so may be fair game
> 
> 
> 
> This.


Interestingly enough, that's the same word for "Christian" in French. 
http://translate.google.com/#en/fr/Christian


----------



## gunneradt (Aug 28, 2012)

barney_pig said:


> where do you teach?


 
Did I say that I taught?


----------



## Frances Lengel (Aug 28, 2012)

Galloway was out of line but I don't really have a problem with teachers using disparaging terms about some of their more demanding charges. As long as it's not done within earshot of the kids themselves or their parents, to me it just sounds like a mechanism for coping with a stressful job - Similar to how emergency service personnel employ black humour to help them cope with some of the sights they see.


----------



## spanglechick (Aug 28, 2012)

gunneradt said:


> I didnt say
> 
> 
> I didn't say 'all' used that but Ive heard many teachers use statements/phrases like that. It probably depends where you teach.


well, i've taught in secondaries and a couple of primaries (on a short-term basis), in central london, outer london, surrey and kent. In addition, and a touring drama facilitator i worked in schools all over England and Wales, from Newcastle to Somerset - I spent four years subsidising my acting career with day-to-day supply work, and I once calculated I'd sat in over 150 different UK staffrooms. 

Perahps the teacher you know who is introducing you to all these nasty unprofessional shitwipes is the common factor?


----------



## Frankie Jack (Aug 28, 2012)

spanglechick said:


> well, i've taught in secondaries and a couple of primaries (on a short-term basis), in central london, outer london, surrey and kent. In addition, and a touring drama facilitator i worked in schools all over England and Wales, from Newcastle to Somerset - I spent four years subsidising my acting career with day-to-day supply work, and I once calculated I'd sat in over 150 different UK staffrooms.
> 
> Perahps the teacher you know who is introducing you to all these nasty unprofessional shitwipes is the common factor?


*applause for spanglechick*


----------



## gunneradt (Aug 28, 2012)

spanglechick said:


> well, i've taught in secondaries and a couple of primaries (on a short-term basis), in central london, outer london, surrey and kent. In addition, and a touring drama facilitator i worked in schools all over England and Wales, from Newcastle to Somerset - I spent four years subsidising my acting career with day-to-day supply work, and I once calculated I'd sat in over 150 different UK staffrooms.
> 
> Perahps the teacher you know who is introducing you to all these nasty unprofessional shitwipes is the common factor?


 
Well they all profess to be socialists.  Maybe, that's the common denominator.


----------



## spanglechick (Aug 28, 2012)

Frances Lengel said:


> Galloway was out of line but I don't really have a problem with teachers using disparaging terms about some of their more demanding charges. As long as it's not done within earshot of the kids themselves or their parents, to me it just sounds like a mechanism for coping with a stressful job - Similar to how emergency service personnel employ black humour to help them cope with some of the sights they see.


IT MATTERS!

It really, really matters.

My  mum was a social worker, working in adoption and fostering, and yes, she used to let off a lot of steam - it's that kind of job.  But if your ire or scorn is directed to the kid who can't help it, rather than the abusive/neglectful/whatever parent, then you've no business being in the job.

I taught a kid last year, really difficult. Massively disruptive - comparatively pronounced autism, oppositional defiance disorder, and histrionic moods where she would shreik out in front of the rest of the class how she was going to slash her wrists open that night. In between times, she'd make personal, insulting comments about me and other children (she was 11 years old).  I've certainly spoken to my colleagues about this girl, let off steam - absolutely... but never with anything other than frustration and sympathy at how her needs were not being met by the actual target of our anger: the ed psych and special needs provision controllers. No, i'm afraid i don't think that child should have been in mainstream education for as long as her needs wre so extreme... but it wasn't her fault.  If you lack that basic compassion then what the fuck makes you think you should be a teacher?


----------



## spanglechick (Aug 28, 2012)

gunneradt said:


> Well they all profess to be socialists. Maybe, that's the common denominator.


i'd say a good 20% of all the teachers i know would identify as socialists, and by their views, i'd imagine a good 95% would get that label from you, and yet - no name-calling to vulnerable kids. try again.


----------



## eatmorecheese (Aug 28, 2012)

Galloway is an arse.

"Cretinism" is the stunting of physical and mental development related to thyroid problems, but has fallen out of use because of its perjorative use as an insult for someone acting stupidly. Pretty archaic. Like spastic for cerebral palsy. "Retardation" is another scientific/medical term as far as I know...

"Window-licker" doesn't have such pedigree. Years back, I first heard the term when trying to prevent a young autistic man I was supporting from bear-hugging some geezer he'd never met at a bus stop in New Cross and (naturally) got a load of abuse in return. "These window-lickers shouldn't be allowed out, it ain't right".

Just nasty and juvenile. Not really a surprise coming from Galloway....


----------



## gunneradt (Aug 28, 2012)

spanglechick said:


> IT MATTERS!
> 
> It really, really matters.
> 
> ...


 
Well that's your view.  As my mum would say, 'sticks and stones'.  People get far too worked up about names these days. 

Quite honestly, the kid you speak about shouldn't be let near other kids if she behaved like that - totally unfair on them.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Aug 28, 2012)

spanglechick said:


> IT MATTERS!
> 
> It really, really matters.
> 
> ...


 
Fair enough.


----------



## gunneradt (Aug 28, 2012)

spanglechick said:


> i'd say a good 20% of all the teachers i know would identify as socialists, and by their views, i'd imagine a good 95% would get that label from you, and yet - no name-calling to vulnerable kids. try again.


 
20% of teachers socialist???  I'd say nearer 95%


----------



## nino_savatte (Aug 28, 2012)

Rubbish.


----------



## audiotech (Aug 28, 2012)

As I've already indicated, we all behaved stupidly after a few beers at the "Cretin Hop".


----------



## spanglechick (Aug 28, 2012)

gunneradt said:


> Well that's your view. As my mum would say, 'sticks and stones'. People get far too worked up about names these days.
> 
> Quite honestly, the kid you speak about shouldn't be let near other kids if she behaved like that - totally unfair on them.


I'd agree with you. fortunately she was taken into specialist provision about halfway through the year. but it isn't her fault, so why would i insult her? 'sticks and stones...' is a children's rhyme - but i'm not a child, neither are your teaching aquaintances and neither is George Galloway*. Adults employed for their professionalism shouldn't be using terms of abuse which insult people's disabilities, race, gender or sexuality.


*ker-ching, back on topic!


----------



## spanglechick (Aug 28, 2012)

gunneradt said:


> 20% of teachers socialist??? I'd say nearer 95%


read my post again - the one you quoted.


----------



## Vintage Paw (Aug 28, 2012)

Language has power. Should it be used as a way to exert one person's power over another? No. But it is. Should it have that power? No. But it does. There is absolutely no use in sticking your head in the sand and pretending that if we all ignore certain words and the offence they cause they will go away and magically everyone will suddenly be nice to each other and be treated equally. It doesn't work like that. This use of language is all about proving one person is better than another, and about reducing a whole group of people to a homogeneous, weak mass while elevating another. Sticks and stones is all very nice in theory, but it is nothing more than wishful thinking and ignores the power relations in society. It's very easy to say "don't let it get to you" or "just grow a thick skin" when your life and day-to-day existence isn't directly affected by the power relations that are inherent to this use of language. Or maybe it is, and you've created your own coping mechanisms to deal with it, and that includes personally ignoring that kind of language. But you are not everyone. You do not speak for the suffering, offence, oppression, misery and frustration that others experience as a result of not just this kind of language but the culture it breeds, that it feeds off and feeds into.


----------



## barney_pig (Aug 28, 2012)

He isn't a teacher, bit he knows more about teachers, teaching assistants, schools or meeting the needs of children than anyone else here.


----------



## spanglechick (Aug 28, 2012)

barney_pig said:


> He isn't a teacher, bit he knows more about teachers, teaching assistants, schools or meeting the needs of children than anyone else here.


amazing, no?


----------



## IC3D (Aug 28, 2012)

spanglechick said:


> .. a touring drama facilitator..


 
Don't mean to derail from your excellent post above, but in my head I see you going around starting rows amongst moody teenagers.


----------



## audiotech (Aug 28, 2012)

Vintage Paw said:


> There is absolutely no use in sticking your head in the sand and pretending that if we all ignore certain words and the offence they cause they will go away and magically everyone will suddenly be nice to each other and be treated equally. It doesn't work like that.


 
Expunging certain words doesn't work either.


----------



## spanglechick (Aug 28, 2012)

IC3D said:


> Don't mean to derail from your excellent post above, but in my head I see you going around starting rows amongst moody teenagers.


Love that. Sadly much less fun, think 'Legz Akimbo' from League of Gentlemen, but more Macbethy.


----------



## Vintage Paw (Aug 28, 2012)

audiotech said:


> Expunging certain words doesn't work either.


 
And I said it did?


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 28, 2012)

gunneradt said:


> 20% of teachers socialist??? I'd say nearer 95%


 

I know its easy to confuse peoples sense of duty towards the educating of the next generation with socialism in the minds of tory wankstains but really some teachers aren't bothered by politics and just want kids to be educated cos that's a good thing and a rewarding role to take on. You sleep sounder at night and so on. This may seem like radical red menace to those whose wank fantasies are over the pound notes but for many its simply a passion to see young human beings taught how to write, how to reason, how to calculate and how to make some sense of a fucked up world. The stinking commie pricks.


----------



## spanglechick (Aug 28, 2012)

DotCommunist said:


> I know its easy to confuse peoples sense of duty towards the educating of the next generation with socialism in the minds of tory wankstains but really some teachers aren't bothered by politics and just want kids to be educated cos that's a good thing and a rewarding role to take on. You sleep sounder at night and so on. This may seem like radical red menace to those whose wank fantasies are over the pound notes but for many its simply a passion to see young human beings taught how to write, how to reason, how to calculate and how to make some sense of a fucked up world. The stinking commie pricks.


most teachers are, for better or worse - liberals of some shade or other.


----------



## IC3D (Aug 28, 2012)

spanglechick said:


> Love that. Sadly much less fun, think '*Legz Akimbo*' from League of Gentlemen, but more Macbethy.


That was the second mental image precisely.


----------



## audiotech (Aug 28, 2012)

Vintage Paw said:


> And I said it did?


 
No.


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 28, 2012)

I know. Gunner thinks teachers are socialist because they unionise when some cunt wants to nick their pensions. Half the fucking point of public sector low pay is that you do it with a half decent pension promised and because its a good thing to do. And now they want to nick even that! In epic doublethink when the right wing press talks of public sector pensions they include politicians and senior civil servans massiv massive pensions in the figure thus making it look like Jane and Jhonny teach are somehow sailing down a river of gold in a gravy boat. Twats.


----------



## spanglechick (Aug 28, 2012)

heh. i might nick this, if i remember, next time we go on strike and i get all the race to the bottom types slagging me off on fb.


----------



## audiotech (Aug 28, 2012)

Dot, the use of profanity's is the language of slavery. No offence.


----------



## cesare (Aug 28, 2012)

Greengrocers are demanding the return of their misappropriated labour.


----------



## manny-p (Aug 28, 2012)

The cunt is getting battered if I see him.


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 28, 2012)

audiotech said:


> Dot, the use of profanity's is the language of slavery. No offence.


 

I reserve the right to use profanity because I have a diverse vocabulary and also Idon't hold to spurious notions of 'correct 'language which are surely just victorian/methodist values pressed upon the working man language in order to denigrate his dialect.

So fuckin have that


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Aug 28, 2012)

manny-p said:


> The cunt is getting battered if I see him.


 
Nice.


----------



## cesare (Aug 28, 2012)

manny-p said:


> The cunt is getting battered if I see him.



If he's still  swaggering round with an entourage, you might need a hand


----------



## manny-p (Aug 28, 2012)

cesare said:


> If he's still swaggering round with an entourage, you might need a hand


That won't be hard. The guy is an absolute tool.


----------



## JHE (Aug 28, 2012)

manny-p said:


> The cunt is getting battered if I see him.


 
That's a very u75 post.  I can't see how it is preferable to GG's tweet calling his antagonist a "windae licker".


----------



## IC3D (Aug 28, 2012)

manny-p said:


> The cunt is getting battered if I see him.


Be careful they'll batter anything, the Galloway's.


----------



## audiotech (Aug 28, 2012)

DotCommunist said:


> I reserve the right to use profanity because I have a diverse vocabulary and also Idon't hold to spurious notions of 'correct 'language which are surely just victorian/methodist values pressed upon the working man language in order to denigrate his dialect.
> 
> So fuckin have that


 
Methodism I have had close experiences of and would walk a mile to avoid. Just some friendly advice, because presently it makes you look stupid and I know you aren't.

I'll leave it at that.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Aug 28, 2012)




----------



## manny-p (Aug 28, 2012)

JHE said:


> That's a very u75 post. I can't see how it is preferable to GG's tweet calling his antagonist a "windae licker".


 
eh? It's pretty obvious why it's preferable.


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 28, 2012)

audiotech said:


> Methodism I have had close experiences of and would walk a mile to avoid. Just some friendly advice, because presently it makes you look stupid and I know you aren't.
> 
> I'll leave it at that.


fellow traveler, I take it on board. I'll not be likely to stop the swears though. I don't care how it makes me look, I was never designed to be an evangelist or codify my tongue in a manner appropriate to civilized discourse. I've a foul mouth wedded to a nice turn of phrase. Who am I supposed to be reaching with a clean mouth? Why would anyone assume I am attempting to do so? I'll keep my swears cmrd. They provide emphasis- impact. And I like using them.

I mean no offense to you, but don't police my language


----------



## Frankie Jack (Aug 28, 2012)

manny-p said:


> The cunt is getting battered if I see him.


Gie him a dunt fer me tae..


----------



## Wilf (Aug 28, 2012)

Vintage Paw said:


> Further to that, it's not the be all and end all whether Galloway knew the etymology of that term or not (and we can all look to his past behaviour to decide in the meantime for ourselves whether he likely did or not). He spat it out with the intent to cause offence, and the onus lies with him to think about the words he uses beforehand, and, if it genuinely was a stupid mistake, apologise after the fact for being thoughtless and offensive, and to think harder in the future about the words he uses.


 Yep.  I think you're right - it was a stupid mistake, from someone who almost certainly new what it meant (why would he use it otherwise + the word 'medical' in the tweet).  He should apologise, in fact he should _grovel_, though there's no sign of him doing either unless I've missed anything this afternoon.

However, as someone said earlier in the thread, the rape stuff was worse. That wasn't a stupid mistake, heat of battle thing.  He sat down and *planned* that.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 28, 2012)

JHE said:


> That's a very u75 post.  I can't see how it is preferable to GG's tweet calling his antagonist a "windae licker".


You're something of an islamophobe, aren't you?


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 28, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> You're something of an islamophobe, aren't you?


 

I've yet to encounter such sneeringly arch muslim hatred in real life. Plenty of 'they smell of curry and are brown' nonsense but never the likes of JHE's calculated 'thinking mans' racism. He's a maggot.


----------



## gunneradt (Aug 28, 2012)

DotCommunist said:


> I know. Gunner thinks teachers are socialist because they unionise when some cunt wants to nick their pensions. Half the fucking point of public sector low pay is that you do it with a half decent pension promised and because its a good thing to do. And now they want to nick even that! In epic doublethink when the right wing press talks of public sector pensions they include politicians and senior civil servans massiv massive pensions in the figure thus making it look like Jane and Jhonny teach are somehow sailing down a river of gold in a gravy boat. Twats.


 
No-one is 'nicking' their pensions.  It's a good pension even with recent changes.

I would agree there is a mis-alignment with regard to public sector pay.  However, it's not low - it's just not high.


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 28, 2012)

gunneradt said:


> No-one is 'nicking' their pensions. It's a good pension even with recent changes.
> 
> I would agree there is a mis-alignment with regard to public sector pay. However, it's not low - it's just not high.


 

It is if you get the right position. Most VC's come with grace and favour perks like a house and a car.

And yes they are nicking the pensions, thats kind of why there are ongoing labour battles over the issue.

So what if its a 'good' pension? I spoke to one educator recently who said' never bothered with the pension, I bought a house instead- can't trust them cunts and I've kids to feed'

thats how secure the pension is. Gold plated myleft arsecheek


----------



## twentythreedom (Aug 28, 2012)

audiotech said:


> Dot, the use of profanity's is the language of slavery. No offence.


 
Incorrect use of apostrophes is the language of.... something


----------



## spanglechick (Aug 28, 2012)

gunneradt said:


> No-one is 'nicking' their pensions. It's a good pension even with recent changes.
> 
> I would agree there is a mis-alignment with regard to public sector pay. However, it's not low - it's just not high.


but the money we have paid is enough for the pension we signed up for. they want to take money out of our pension pot to make up for the bankers' foul-up. how is that fair?


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 28, 2012)

gunneradt said:


> The difficulty though is that when there is one child like this in a class it can take a huge amount of time and effort to run the class properly. There are also huge health and safety issues with some of the more extreme kids. I certainly wouldn't want to have to watch some of them.


I'm not convinced you know what you're talking about - if you're not a teacher why are you posting as if you are?


----------



## IC3D (Aug 28, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> I'm not convinced you know what you're talking about - if you're not a teacher why are you posting as if you are?


Is he pretending to be someone else? the imaginary persona school of thought for winning discussion points.


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 28, 2012)

IC3D said:


> Is he pretending to be someone else? the imaginary persona school of thought for winning discussion points.


Possibly. Maybe he just likes the attention.


----------



## barney_pig (Aug 29, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> I'm not convinced you know what you're talking about - if you're not a teacher why are you posting as if you are?


I've seen people multi logins to support themselves, and others pretend to be different people to give credence to their own madcap positions. But this one is a bit of a first. Claiming not to have any first hand knowledge of a subject, but still being the onectrue expert. Hats off to you Mr gunneradt, an urban leg end.


----------



## gunneradt (Aug 29, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> I'm not convinced you know what you're talking about - if you're not a teacher why are you posting as if you are?


 
my partner's a teacher, as well as my ex mother-in-law - and several friends


----------



## gunneradt (Aug 29, 2012)

spanglechick said:


> but the money we have paid is enough for the pension we signed up for. they want to take money out of our pension pot to make up for the bankers' foul-up. how is that fair?


 
all pension plans have changed over the last 10 years - it's not just teachers.  Finding a final salary scheme is rather difficult these days.


----------



## Maidmarian (Aug 29, 2012)

Great ! Let's all argue about teachers' pensions !!!


----------



## Maidmarian (Aug 29, 2012)

That was irony btw

Let's all fiddle while Rome burns eh ?


----------



## Wilf (Aug 29, 2012)

Maidmarian said:


> That was irony btw
> 
> Let's all fiddle while Rome burns eh ?


 You hum it, I'll play it.

By the by, looks like Galloway's going for the let's see if it all blows over approach (which I have a feeling it might).  Given that he was presumably just responding to some sectarian grief he got, a proper apology (if genuine)would have done the trick for me. Still meant he had some nasty stuff in his psyche - added to all the other nasty stuff from a few days ago. However, doing some sort of PR calculation on whether he _needs_ to apologise is beneath contempt.


----------



## Maidmarian (Aug 29, 2012)

Wilf said:


> You hum it, I'll play it.
> 
> By the by, looks like Galloway's going for the let's see if it all blows over approach (which I have a feeling it might). Given that he was presumably just responding to some sectarian grief he got, a proper apology (if genuine)would have done the trick for me. Still meant he had some nasty stuff in his psyche - added to all the other nasty stuff from a few days ago. However, doing some sort of PR calculation on whether he _needs_ to apologise is beneath contempt.


 
Agreed


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Aug 29, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> come on what?


 
Eileen


----------



## audiotech (Aug 29, 2012)

twentythreedom said:


> Incorrect use of apostrophes is the language of.... something


 
No full stop.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 29, 2012)

gunneradt said:


> Personally, I think theyre much better taught by specialists in special schools.


 
"They're"?


----------



## weepiper (Aug 29, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> "They're"?


 
They. Those inconvenient disabled. The ones he wants to see packed off out of sight where he and his children won't have to look at them.


----------



## cesare (Aug 29, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> "They're"?


Presumably.

(Your reply follows all the grammar corrections )


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 29, 2012)

spanglechick said:


> well, i've taught in secondaries and a couple of primaries (on a short-term basis), in central london, outer london, surrey and kent. In addition, and *a touring drama facilitator* i worked in schools all over England and Wales, from Newcastle to Somerset - I spent four years subsidising my acting career with day-to-day supply work, and I once calculated I'd sat in over 150 different UK staffrooms.


 
Why does the term "touring drama facilitator" make me think of the Legs Akimbo Acting Troupe in The league of Gentlemen?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 29, 2012)

gunneradt said:


> Well they all profess to be socialists. Maybe, that's the common denominator.


 
Wow, how convenient. The teachers who use terms of abuse to define a student all profess to be socialists.

You two-bob Walter Mitty fuckbag.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 29, 2012)

gunneradt said:


> 20% of teachers socialist??? I'd say nearer 95%


 
That's because you're what is commonly known as "an ignorant fuckbag".


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 29, 2012)

spanglechick said:


> Love that. Sadly much less fun, think 'Legz Akimbo' from League of Gentlemen, but more Macbethy.


 
Beaten to it!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 29, 2012)

audiotech said:


> Dot, the use of profanity's is the language of slavery. No offence.


 
Bollocks.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 29, 2012)

twentythreedom said:


> Incorrect use of apostrophes is the language of.... something


 
A syphilitic?


----------



## 8ball (Aug 29, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> A syphilitic?


 
Greengrocers?


----------



## cesare (Aug 29, 2012)

8ball said:


> Greengrocers?


Bindun, not that twentyfreedomdom noticed, grr.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 29, 2012)

weepiper said:


> They. Those inconvenient disabled. The ones he wants to see packed off out of sight where he and his children won't have to look at them.


 
I find it massively offensive that anyone, even a twat like gunneradt, can think that "special schools" are a good idea for any child who can be dealt with in mainstream education, because "special schools" for all "challenging" students have often meant only one thing for those students - quasi-institutionalisation and an "education" that serves the lowest common educational denominator rather than stretching the individual.


----------



## 8ball (Aug 29, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> ... "special schools" for all "challenging" students have often meant only one thing for those students - quasi-institutionalisation and an "education" that serves the lowest common educational denominator rather than stretching the individual.


 
And that's different from a mainstream school how, exactly?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 29, 2012)

8ball said:


> And that's different from a mainstream school how, exactly?


 
The difference is in pupils in mainstream schools having the *possibility* of being stretched, whereas in the general (i.e. not covering a specific educational issue) "special schools" the focus has always (IME) been on providing a minimal basic ed for all.
That's not to say that some of the special schools don't go much further, but too often they didn't and haven't, as well as couldn't, which is why I only really support the idea of special schools catering for specific educational problems that aren't amenable to being dealt with in a mainstream classroom.


----------



## 8ball (Aug 29, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> The difference is in pupils in mainstream schools having the *possibility* of being stretched, whereas in the general (i.e. not covering a specific educational issue) "special schools" the focus has always (IME) been on providing a minimal basic ed for all.
> That's not to say that some of the special schools don't go much further, but too often they didn't and haven't, as well as couldn't, which is why I only really support the idea of special schools catering for specific educational problems that aren't amenable to being dealt with in a mainstream classroom.


 
My sister works in a 'special' school - I'm not expert in the area myself (as should be obvious), but she's quite emphatic about the failings of mainstream schools during the times when 'inclusion' was the big buzzword.

I guess it's a matter of matching the child to the right situation.  I think we're a long way from that, though.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 29, 2012)

8ball said:


> My sister works in a 'special' school - I'm not expert in the area myself (as should be obvious), but she's quite emphatic about the failings of mainstream schools during the times when 'inclusion' was the big buzzword.
> 
> I guess it's a matter of matching the child to the right situation. I think we're a long way from that, though.


 
As far as we've ever been, unfortunately.


----------



## 8ball (Aug 29, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> As far as we've ever been, unfortunately.


 
My downer on mainstream education is highly influenced by growing up in a 'one size fits all' education system with undiagnosed Asperger Syndrome.  I lived in a world filled with things that were either impossible for me to cope with, or tediously simple.  The parameters by which _anyone _could be considered to have been 'stretched' were pretty narrow, mind.


----------



## nino_savatte (Aug 29, 2012)

gunneradt said:


> my partner's a teacher, as well as my ex mother-in-law - and several friends


That's hardly a representative sample.


----------



## gunneradt (Aug 29, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> That's because you're what is commonly known as "an ignorant fuckbag".


 
Did someone rattle your chains?


----------



## _angel_ (Aug 29, 2012)

8ball said:


> My sister works in a 'special' school - I'm not expert in the area myself (as should be obvious), but she's quite emphatic about the failings of mainstream schools during the times when 'inclusion' was the big buzzword.
> 
> I guess it's a matter of matching the child to the right situation. I think we're a long way from that, though.


I was never convinced that mine wouldn't just wander out there and disappear. I can't imagine a teacher being able to include them in anything academic and even if they have a 1:1 that person surely has to go to the loo and have meal breaks, who looks after the kids then. Nobody has ever managed to answer these questions.


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 29, 2012)

gunneradt said:


> my partner's a teacher, as well as my ex mother-in-law - and several friends


I reiterate - if you're not a teacher, why are you posting as if you are? You're not saying 'these are the views and experiences of teachers I know', you're presenting it as first-hand knowledge gained by yourself through classroom experience.

You'd do well to read spanglechick's posts properly - she is an extremely experienced teacher with actual first-hand knowledge of many classrooms and their attendant pupils.


----------



## DexterTCN (Aug 29, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> I find it massively offensive that anyone, even a twat like gunneradt, can think that "special schools" are a good idea for any child who can be dealt with in mainstream education, because "special schools" for all "challenging" students have often meant only one thing for those students - quasi-institutionalisation and an "education" that serves the lowest common educational denominator rather than stretching the individual.


My son has an very strong ADHD condition.

The special needs school was a fucking godsend.   They have the resources that a normal school does not (primarily a low ration of staff to pupil).   Also, via that school system, funding becomes available for re-integration into the normal system years later.

If it was not for the special needs system, my son would not have passed his highers, in fact he wouldn't have any qualifications at all.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 29, 2012)

gunneradt said:


> Did someone rattle your chains?


 
Yes, some useless waster cunt calling himself "gunneradt" who always comes out with some supporting anecdote for the bollocks he spouts.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 29, 2012)

DexterTCN said:


> My son has an very strong ADHD condition.
> 
> The special needs school was a fucking godsend. They have the resources that a normal school does not (primarily a low ration of staff to pupil). Also, via that school system, funding becomes available for re-integration into the normal system years later.
> 
> If it was not for the special needs system, my son would not have passed his highers, in fact he wouldn't have any qualifications at all.


 
See the post 2 after the one you replied to.


----------



## DexterTCN (Aug 29, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> See the post 2 after the one you replied to.


hmmm ok, never saw that

I don't want to argue any point on this although there's lots worth discussing, I see where you're coming from and I also see other things that can be relevant - not that you don't see them, just that I haven't see stuff posted - but I wouldn't discuss such things in this thread.


----------



## JHE (Sep 1, 2012)

The GG has issued an apology for using the term "windae-licker". It is available on YouTube:


It starts with some tedious boasting about being in Indonesia, but he then gives an account of why he wanted to be rude to his interlocutor on Twitter and I don't think anyone will be surprised. Basically, he claims that he was wound up by a hostile Rangers supporter, who (according to GG) was 'sectarian'.

The extraordinary thing is that in the apology, GG repeatedly refers to his antagonist as a 'moron' and he says he wished he had chosen the word 'moron' instead of the term he used. He says (perfectly accurately) that the term he used was used to mean moron. Well, yes, obviously! I don't think anyone thought otherwise.

Earlier on the thread I made the point that it's very odd that the term 'window-licker' should be thought wrong, while synonyms like 'moron' are not considered wrong. Someone then claimed that the terms 'moron' and 'cretin' are also no-noes, but I don't believe that at all. Let's see whether GG's (repeated) use of 'moron' in the apology produces even a tenth of the outrage that his use of "windae-licker" produces. I predict it will produce no outrage at all.

So... why? If it is OK to call someone a 'moron', why is it wrong to call the same person a 'window-licker'? Both are disrespectful ways of referring to people with learning disabilities and they are both used as insults. What's the big difference?

O tempora, o mores... (as we say in Hyson Green)


----------



## Greebo (Sep 1, 2012)

JHE said:


> Someone then claimed that the terms 'moron' and 'cretin' are also no-noes, but I don't believe that at all. Let's see whether GG's (repeated) use of 'moron' in the apology produces even a tenth of the outrage that his use of "windae-licker" produces. I predict it will produce no outrage at all.
> 
> So... why? If it is OK to call someone a 'moron', why is it wrong to call the same person a 'window-licker'? Both are disrespectful ways of referring to people with learning disabilities and they are both used as insults.<snip>


1) Cretin and moron actually refer (or used to) to a defined degree of mental impairment.  These are currently colloquially used as ways to insult somebody who has no mental impairment.
2) "window-licker" is a pejorative label exclusively applied to people who have a mental impairment or are very severely physically disabled.  AFAIK it is never applied to somebody who isn't disabled.
Therefore, the difference is that 2) is quite obviously kicking somebody who is already down.


----------



## JHE (Sep 1, 2012)

Greebo said:


> 2) "window-licker" is a pejorative label exclusively applied to people who have a mental impairment or are very severely physically disabled. *AFAIK it is never applied to somebody who isn't disabled*.


 
It very obviously is! GG used it as an insult and, though personally I have come across it only in the last year or so and not very often, I gather that it is often used in exactly that way - ie, in the same insulting way that many use moron, cretin etc - and that it has been especially popular in Scotland.


----------



## Greebo (Sep 1, 2012)

JHE said:


> It very obviously is! GG used it as an insult <snip>


When referring to disabled people, sweetie.


----------



## JHE (Sep 1, 2012)

The Rangers fan, AFAWK, is not disabled.  GG used 'windae-licker' in exactly the way many (including GG) use 'moron'.  He is not alone in doing so.  Every one of the (few) times I have come across the term it has been used as a (jokey) insulting way of referring to supposedly stupid people, none of whom have learning disabilities and none of whom (AFAIK) lick windows.


----------



## 8ball (Sep 1, 2012)

JHE said:


> Let's see whether GG's (repeated) use of 'moron' in the apology produces even a tenth of the outrage that his use of "windae-licker" produces. I predict it will produce no outrage at all.


 
Last week's story, anyway.


----------



## JHE (Sep 1, 2012)

8ball said:


> Last week's story, anyway.


 
Sure. GG calling a Ranger's supporter a "windae-licker" was last week's story. It merited a piece in the Guardian, apparently. If (repeatedly) calling the same Ranger's supporter a "moron" were considered similarly naughty it would be this week's story. It isn't.


----------



## DexterTCN (Sep 1, 2012)

Greebo said:


> ....2) "window-licker" is a pejorative label *exclusively applied to people who have a mental impairment or are very severely physically disabled*.....


No.  Just noticed this. It is not.   It is used as an insult.   It is a comparative.   Also...we're talking about old firm idiots...they're all fucking impaired.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Sep 2, 2012)

JHE said:


> The Rangers fan, AFAWK, is not disabled. GG used 'windae-licker' in exactly the way many (including GG) use 'moron'. He is not alone in doing so. Every one of the (few) times I have come across the term it has been used as a (jokey) insulting way of referring to supposedly stupid people, none of whom have learning disabilities and none of whom (AFAIK) lick windows.


 
Meh. If this comment is what finally buries him then that's fine with me, regardless of whether there was any actual ill will behind it.


----------



## articul8 (Sep 4, 2012)

Kate Hudson has resigned as a Respect candidate due to Galloway's rape comments.


----------



## JHE (Sep 4, 2012)

SpookyFrank said:


> Meh. If this comment is what finally buries him then that's fine with me, regardless of whether there was any actual ill will behind it.


 
He's not buried.


----------



## JHE (Sep 4, 2012)

articul8 said:


> Kate Hudson has resigned as a Respect candidate due to Galloway's rape comments.


 
GG's comments on the Assange thing had already been rejected by the leader of al-Respeq.  Perhaps Hudson wasn't that keen on standing and was looking for a peg on which to hang her resignation.


----------



## IC3D (Sep 4, 2012)

The Syrian Revolutionaries Are "Servants of the Crusader Powers" 



> Galloway, who once described President Assad's regime as "the last bastion of Arab dignity", has started presenting a fortnightly show, _A Free Word_, for the Beirut-based broadcaster al-Mayadeen.
> According to the Register of Members’ Interests, Galloway will earn £3,000 an episode – or a yearly income of £78,000 - on top of his MP’s salary. The TV station will also cover the cost of regular trips to Lebanon to pre-record the programme.
> Galloway, who represents Bradford West in the Commons, also presents a weekly slot on the Iranian state-owned media corporation Press TV but the job is currently unpaid.




The Week


He's a great orator though.


----------



## JHE (Sep 4, 2012)

IC3D said:


> The Syrian Revolutionaries Are "Servants of the Crusader Powers"


 
Nah.  The powers GG calls crusaders are the servants of the jihadis.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Sep 4, 2012)

JHE said:


> He's not buried.


 
Then someone hand him a bigger shovel.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 4, 2012)

articul8 said:


> Kate Hudson has resigned as a Respect candidate due to Galloway's rape comments.


Did you notice your labour mates changing their headline piece in order to make clear that they did not support Hudson in manchester?


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 4, 2012)

DexterTCN said:


> No. Just noticed this. It is not. It is used as an insult. It is a comparative. Also...we're talking about old firm idiots...they're all fucking impaired.


Comparative? As in compares people who lick windows with those who don't. A whole new range of insults just became acceptable. Every post you make just makes you look dodgier and dodgier  - though after your disgusting reepy sexism during the sheridan trial i should not be surprised.


----------



## articul8 (Sep 4, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> Did you notice your labour mates changing their headline piece in order to make clear that they did not support Hudson in manchester?


who?  where?


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 4, 2012)

Left Futures and the Manchester Central by-election: an apology

This dithering is you lot in one easy go.


----------



## articul8 (Sep 4, 2012)

I think maybe Hudson reflected on the wisdom of comparing Respect with Syriza and saying it could "fill the vacuum" and very wisely bailed.  Like it or not Labour has Manchester Central sewn up.


----------



## DexterTCN (Sep 4, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> Comparative? As in compares people who lick windows with those who don't. A whole new range of insults just became acceptable. Every post you make just makes you look dodgier and dodgier - though after your disgusting reepy sexism during the sheridan trial i should not be surprised.


 
Well...I don't think I'd posted here for a week or so.   I've been too busy working on my disgusting reepy sexism (sic) with that 17 year old girl I live with.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 4, 2012)

JHE said:


> He's not buried.


But he's exposed. Not everyone buries their dead, you know.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 4, 2012)

DexterTCN said:


> Well...I don't think I'd posted here for a week or so. I've been too busy working on my disgusting reepy sexism (sic) with that 17 year old girl I live with.


Comparative as in what? Tell us why you think calling such an insult comparative gets him off the hook. tell us what you meant by posting such a thing.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 4, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> But he's exposed. Not everyone buries their dead, you know.


He's gone parsee now i hear.


----------



## DexterTCN (Sep 4, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> Comparative as in what? Tell us why you think calling such an insult comparative gets him off the hook. tell us what you meant by posting such a thing.


Who am I trying to get off the hook?


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 4, 2012)

DexterTCN said:


> Who am I trying to get off the hook?


Galloway and yourself. Can you answer the question about why you said his insult was comparative and what you think this means or says please.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 4, 2012)

JHE said:


> Sure. GG calling a Ranger's supporter a "windae-licker" was last week's story. It merited a piece in the Guardian, apparently. If (repeatedly) calling the same Ranger's supporter a "moron" were considered similarly naughty it would be this week's story. It isn't.


I wouldn't be surprised if it were true though. There are, after all, a lot of moronick rangers fans.


----------



## DexterTCN (Sep 4, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> Galloway and yourself. Can you answer the question about why you said his insult was comparative and what you think this means or says please.


Where did I try to get GG off the hook?   For fuck's sake man put a fucking quote in, eh?   Give me something to work with.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 4, 2012)

DexterTCN said:


> Where did I try to get GG off the hook? For fuck's sake man put a fucking quote in, eh? Give me something to work with.


 



			
				dexter said:
			
		

> No. Just noticed this. It is not. It is used as an insult. It is a comparative. Also...we're talking about old firm idiots...they're all fucking impaired


 
Can you answer the question about why you said his insult was comparative and what you think this means or says please. Go on, i dare you.


----------



## DexterTCN (Sep 4, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> Can you answer the question about why you said his insult was comparative and what you think this means or says please. Go on, i dare you.


Let's stick with you showing me where I stuck up for GG, should be easy enough the thread isn't that big.

And you can apologise for the other shit while you're at it or we're not really going anywhere.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 4, 2012)

DexterTCN said:


> Let's stick with you showing me where I stuck up for GG, should be easy enough the thread isn't that big.
> 
> And you can apologise for the other shit while you're at it or we're not really going anywhere.


I am sticking with that by asking you to  answer the question about why you said his insult was comparative and what you think this means or says please. Let's see if you _really_ want to stick with it or not.


----------



## DexterTCN (Sep 4, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> I am sticking with that by asking you to answer the question about why you said his insult was comparative and what you think this means or says please. Let's see if you _really_ want to stick with it or not.


 
Seeing as you couldn't back up your first accusation I've no compulsion to discuss with you unless you apologise for the disgusting creepy sexual dodgy comment. That's the end of it until then.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 4, 2012)

Can you answer the question about why you said his insult was comparative and what you think this means or says please. Or could you bottle it?


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 4, 2012)

now, correct me if I am wrong, but the phrase 'window-licker' can only have come about in an era where the 'special needs' kids were being bused into special needs scholastic environs. So, 60s-70s cos before that it was asylums or smothered at birth.

Hence 'window licker' is quite quite clearly tied to mockery of the less fortunate wrt healtheither mentalor physical. In a very recent and obvious way?

why am I bothering here. Fucks sake, froggy be home soon then I can talk to her about things that don't involve the sectarian devil and his misuse of language

interesting that he still types in scots vernacular though. Almost like he is still a son of toil and not a self serving wanker.


----------



## xenon (Sep 4, 2012)

DotCommunist said:


> now, correct me if I am wrong, but the phrase 'window-licker' can only have come about in an era where the 'special needs' kids were being bused into special needs scholastic environs. So, 60s-70s cos before that it was asylums or smothered at birth.
> 
> Hence 'window licker' is quite quite clearly tied to mockery of the less fortunate wrt healtheither mentalor physical. In a very recent and obvious way?
> 
> ...



Course it is. The same as spaz. To argue the term isn't used to cast an oponent as being akin to retarded or mentally disabled, hence, deffective, is feeble sofistry. Or willful ignorance. Which ever fits.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 10, 2012)

articul8 said:


> Kate Hudson has resigned as a Respect candidate due to Galloway's rape comments.


She and Burgin have now both left the party.



> Being purged
> There are numerous other National Council members who have missed two meetings and have not been removed from the NC. It is clear that we have been purged from the party leadership for political reasons: because we publicly condemned George’s rape comments and backed the position of our party leader, and because we refused to be silenced over the fall-out from the issue within the party.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 10, 2012)

Just to remind people:


----------



## barney_pig (Oct 10, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> She and Burgin have now both left the party.


the comments on socialistunity were abruptly cut short but seem odd in the 'who are Hudson and bugden anyway' variety, the best being the one that condemned them for being "Careerist opportunists , who needs ‘em." pots and bloody big kettles methinks.


----------



## wemakeyousoundb (Oct 11, 2012)

never knew what window licker meant until today.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 21, 2013)

Galloway:_ "I don't debate with Israelis"_ then walks out:



Does he _talk_ to Israelis?


----------



## cesare (Feb 21, 2013)

He's such a fucking plonker.


----------



## DexterTCN (Feb 21, 2013)

cesare said:


> He's such a fucking plonker.


What is an Israeli going to _debate_?


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 21, 2013)

You think all Israelis think the same and so he is right to say that he has a blanket refusal to debate with them? What about anti-occupation Israelis? Should they be boycotted? What is a black south african going to debate in 1985? Think about the wider issue here please.


----------



## DexterTCN (Feb 21, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> You think all Israelis think the same and so he is right to say that he has a blanket refusal to debate with them? What about anti-occupation Israelis? Should they be boycotted? What is a black south african going to debate in 1985? Think about the wider issue here please.


I don't debate with people who call me a sex pest.  fuck off.

*George Galloway* ‏@*georgegalloway*
@*segal_matt* I don't debate with Israelis or speak to their media. If Israelis want to speak about Palestine they can talk to the PLO
 
 *View conversation* 


 *Reply* 
 *Retweet* 
 *Favorite* 



 *More*


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## butchersapron (Feb 21, 2013)

Got yourself in a tight little corner here haven't you? All Israelis think the same and are effectively tools of and representatives of the Israeli state and so should be boycotted. Really? Really?

_Tell Biko that i __won't debate with south africans__, if he wants to speak about south africa he can speak to the ANC or the SACP._


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 21, 2013)

What a scumbag.


----------



## Lemon Eddy (Feb 21, 2013)

You know, I at least used to give him grudging respect for not being afraid to argue with people.  Looks like he's not even got that going for him now.


----------



## junglevip (Feb 21, 2013)

Cant fault him!


----------



## junglevip (Feb 21, 2013)

An article by Own Jones (who gets on mu tits a little bit... .. .)
What the left should learn about plain speaking from george galloway


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 21, 2013)

junglevip said:


> Cant fault him!


You can't fault political idiocy that argues along openly racist lines of logic? Why can't you? What's wrong with you?


----------



## junglevip (Feb 21, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> You can't fault political idiocy that argues along openly racist lines of logic? Why can't you? What's wrong with you?


 
I am a follower of his and think he is an anti-zionist and that it no bad thing.  Until I am given evidence to the contrary I will continue to support him.  I do however keep an open mind to anything presented to the contrary


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 21, 2013)

junglevip said:


> I am a follower of his and think he is an anti-zionist and that it no bad thing. Until I am given evidence to the contrary I will continue to support him. I do however keep an open mind to anything presented to the contrary


 
you think all israelis are zionists? you think that not debating with the entire population of a country is striking a blow against zionism? christ no wonder people hate the left when this idiocy is what passes for radical thinking.


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 21, 2013)

Of course if there's anything that's going to stop israelis being zionists it's rape-apologist stalinist and self-proclaimed defenders of the palestinian cause like galloway refusing to speak to them on the basis of their nationality. that's not going to be a sop to the extreme right and the fascist wing of israeli politics and provoke an ever growing sense of persecution and fear and conspiracy theories about "eurabia" and the like. oh no.


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 21, 2013)

junglevip said:


> I am a follower of his and think he is an anti-zionist and that it no bad thing. Until I am given evidence to the contrary I will continue to support him. I do however keep an open mind to anything presented to the contrary


 
Sometimes it is a bad thing. anti-zionists like you might as well vote for likud because that's exactly you're helping happen.


----------



## junglevip (Feb 21, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> you think all israelis are zionists? you think that not debating with the entire population of a country is striking a blow against zionism? christ no wonder people hate the left when this idiocy is what passes for radical thinking.


 
No, no and I am not sure about the last bit. I think that last idea may be a little dated


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 21, 2013)

You know how this will be spun in the israeli press. it will be spun as he doesn't want to speak to a random israeli because he doesn't like israelis - doesn't like jews - and this is what we're up against, the entire world hates us, therefore more and more reason to bomb every neighbouring country to fuck. to get the population to accept the logic of the wars.

and yes anti-zionism is a bad thing if its just finger wagging moralising and liberal outrage from somebody like galloway who openly supported regimes at least as nasty as israel's with no attempt to understand why zionism exists and just a blanket writing off of the israeli population without an attempt to understand it from a class perspective, with no attempt to try and address the issues which the israeli wc face on the ground just a blanket calling them all cunts.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 21, 2013)

junglevip said:


> No, no and I am not sure about the last bit. I think that last idea may be a little dated


So why then do you see no problem with GG doing just what you say that you reject?


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 21, 2013)

"god knows who is a muslim"

pathetic ...


----------



## phildwyer (Feb 21, 2013)

junglevip said:


> An article by Own Jones (who gets on mu tits a little bit... .. .)
> What the left should learn about plain speaking from george galloway


 
What a pathetic article.

No glimmer of awareness that the reason people support Galloway is because he's right.

Noooo... everything has to be about spin and presentation, and what can we learn from the fiendishly clever way he puts himself across. Pathetic.


----------



## Lemon Eddy (Feb 21, 2013)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2013/feb/21/george-galloway-debate-israeli-oxford



> Aslan-Levy told the Guardian he had in fact been calling for a solution that would recognise both states.
> "As opposition speaker, my case was not that Israel should remain in the West Bank, but that such a withdrawal should not be immediate – ie unilateral – but in the context of a negotiated peace treaty, which would recognise both Israeli and Palestinian states."


 
Of course Aslan-Levy could be full of shit, and he may well have been intending to argue a hardline zionist position, but we'll never know that.

I know very little about the makeup of Galloway's electoral support.  Is his stance here likely to be just a soundbite appeal to bigotry to win votes?


----------



## el-ahrairah (Feb 21, 2013)

what is he right about?  i can;t remember the last time i actually thought he was right, and i was a general fan of his for a while many years ago.  before the whole Respect stuff.  before i really knew about him and just thought he was an old labour shit-stirrer.


----------



## junglevip (Feb 21, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> So why then do you see no problem with GG doing just what you say that you reject?


 
The only point I think is being made here is 'why people hate the left' by frogwoman


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 21, 2013)

well my point is still a good one because he is the most prominent anti-war/vaguely left wing politician that there is. and he does this shit.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 21, 2013)

junglevip said:


> The only point I think is being made here is 'why people hate the left' by frogwoman


Er what? You said that you don't think that "All Israelis think the same and are effectively tools of and representatives of the Israeli state and so should be boycotted." but that you can find no fault at all with GG utilising just that logic of racism. Have you just woken up or something?


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 21, 2013)

Lemon Eddy said:


> http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2013/feb/21/george-galloway-debate-israeli-oxford
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

respect do have a rep as going for the left of labour and muslim vote but theres no denying that galloway actually does believe in the palestinian cause.  Not that he's helping much by telling all israelis everywhere speak to the PLO cos the beard aint listening'


----------



## junglevip (Feb 21, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Er what? You said that you don't think that "All Israelis think the same and are effectively tools of and representatives of the Israeli state and so should be boycotted." but that you can find no fault at all with GG utilising just that logic of racism. Have you just woken up or something?


 
Thats just silly


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 21, 2013)

junglevip said:


> Thats just silly


What is?

You said:



> Cant fault him!


 
in reaction to his position in the vid that all Israelis think the same and are effectively tools of and representatives of the Israeli state and so should be boycotted. Yet when FG asked you if you think the same about all Israelis and boycotting them you said "No". Sort it out please.


----------



## DexterTCN (Feb 21, 2013)

I don't buy Israeli produce, I once told a woman that frankly and she started shouting at me in the shopping mall.

Guess I'm a racist too, then.


----------



## Lemon Eddy (Feb 21, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> theres no denying that galloway actually does believe in the palestinian cause. Not that he's helping much by telling all israelis everywhere speak to the PLO cos the beard aint listening'


 
I'm quite happy to accept he believes in the palestinian cause, I really am.  But I also suspect that he's quite sharp, and very self motivated, so I'm just wondering how it benefits him to take such a soundbite/simplesque stance of absolutely no dialogue with an Israeli.  It's politics at pantomime level.


----------



## junglevip (Feb 21, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> What is?
> 
> You said:
> 
> ...


 
Please, enough of this bollocks.  Save it for down the pub with the rest of the popular front


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 21, 2013)

DexterTCN said:


> I don't buy Israeli produce, I once told a woman that frankly and she started shouting at me in the shopping mall.
> 
> Guess I'm a racist too, then.


Do you boycott Israeli people? Do you think that anti-occupation Israelis should be no platformed? Do you think your comparison is more than a little bit shit?


----------



## Lemon Eddy (Feb 21, 2013)

DexterTCN said:


> I don't buy Israeli produce, I once told a woman that frankly and she started shouting at me in the shopping mall.
> 
> Guess I'm a racist too, then.


 
There's a really quite fucking enormous difference between engaging in a personal campaign of trade sanctions and flat out refusing to speak to someone because of their nationality, you know.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 21, 2013)

junglevip said:


> Please, enough of this bollocks. Save it for down the pub with the rest of the popular front


Jesus wept, go and have a lie down and see if you can unconfuse yourself a little.


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 21, 2013)

DexterTCN said:


> I don't buy Israeli produce, I once told a woman that frankly and she started shouting at me in the shopping mall.
> 
> Guess I'm a racist too, then.


 
there's a difference between not buying products from a country and writing off everyone in that country as a cunt and refusing to speak to them on that basis. this guy wasn't a spokesman for netanyahu ffs!

i think bds is a load of bollocks but if you dont buy israeli products you're not racist, to be fair a lot of the people advocating a boycott do debate with israelis.


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 21, 2013)

Lemon Eddy said:


> There's a really quite fucking enormous difference between engaging in a personal campaign of trade sanctions and flat out refusing to speak to someone because of their nationality, you know.


 
exactly, i do buy some israeli stuff for jewish food and that when i can be arsed or when theres a festival, because you get cheap kosher ingredients at the synagogue shop that are imported from israel, but i dont go out of my way to do so, and would not condemn anyone else for boycotting israel coz if there's nothing you need that is only made there then thats fair enough. there are companies i dont buy from even though consumerist boycotts are bourgeois liberalism etc etc because they are just so fucking unethical, like amazon, i never want to give any money to those cunts ever again. not buying stuff from a country might be ineffective but it doesn't make you a racist.

galloway on the other hand basically refused to speak to the guy saying that he doesn't debate with zionists, without knowing whether the guy was in fact a zionist or not


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 21, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> exactly, i do buy some israeli stuff for jewish food and that when i can be arsed or when theres a festival, because you get cheap kosher ingredients at the synagogue shop that are imported from israel, but i dont go out of my way to do so, and would not condemn anyone else for boycotting israel coz if there's nothing you need that is only made there then thats fair enough. there are companies i dont buy from even though consumerist boycotts are bourgeois liberalism etc etc because they are just so fucking unethical, like amazon, i never want to give any money to those cunts ever again. not buying stuff from a country might be ineffective but it doesn't make you a racist.
> 
> galloway on the other hand basically refused to speak to the guy saying that he doesn't debate with zionists, without knowing whether the guy was in fact a zionist or not


It would have been better if he had said zionist but he said, and said repeatedly,"Israeli".


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 21, 2013)

Even worse than i thought then!


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 21, 2013)

Watch the vid, it's under a minute long!!


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 21, 2013)

Just watched it fucking hell


----------



## teqniq (Feb 21, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> there's a difference between not buying products from a country and writing off everyone in that country as a cunt and refusing to speak to them on that basis. this guy wasn't a spokesman for netanyahu ffs!
> 
> i think bds is a load of bollocks but if you dont buy israeli products you're not racist, to be fair a lot of the people advocating a boycott do debate with israelis.


Well now I don't wish to sidetrack this from Galloway but if BDS is bollox then how do you account for this analysis of Veolia's situation:



> In a recent presentation [PDF], Hege Sjo said that “disasters are expensive” for businesses, mentioning Veolia as an example of a company that has experienced “reputational damage as a result of publicity and pending litigation” due to “operations in troubled regions. Involvement in infrastructure project in the occupied territories.”


 
They also lost this contract with West London Waste Authority which has also been directly attributed to BDS, though the authority denies this.


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 21, 2013)

teqniq said:


> Well now I don't wish to sidetrack this from Galloway but if BDS is bollox then how do you account for this analysis of Veolia's situation:
> 
> 
> 
> They also lost this contract with West London Waste Authority which has also been directly attributed to BDS, though the authority denies this.


 
I'm not saying that targetted boycotts and that are never effective and don't deny it's had some successes and i'm not opposed to boycotting companies that supply bulldozers and weaponry etc (these companies should be targetted anyway no matter who they're selling to) but i think the ideology behind that movement is bollocks and i also think it's dangerous to call for sanctions to be imposed on a country which will overwhelmingly affect working class people. that is what the s in bds stands for, sanctions, and quite simply i don't agree that sanctions should be imposed when they will be used to drive down the living standards of the israeli w/c and impose even more stricter austerity capitalism in a way that will not remotely help the palestinian cuase, i don't think that any left wing groups should be calling for it, even though it is at this point unlikely to happen, because what it ends up doing is alienating israelis (who rather than just cunting off anyone on the left should actually be supporting their struggles on the ground and helping make links with palestinian workers etc) and pissing people off. it's also very often (although not always) tied to simplistic anti imperialism and thinking that if israel was under palestinian control then the situation would be better when this is not the case, and a lot of the people calling for israel to be boycotted/excluded from things have done very similar things to how israel has treated the palestinians, maybe not quite as bad or exactly the same but getting there.


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 21, 2013)

Not to mention the fact that it is used to promote zionist/nationalist politics in israel and abroad, the whole idea that the board of deputies of british jews did a while ago of a "buycott" delberately buying israeli goods to counteract the BDS movement, this is not like south africa and it's very important not to play into the hands of those on both sides who have an interest of stirring fear up, i don't think simply boycotting a country and pressurising the EU to impose trade restrictions (when zionist politicians can point to any example of countries who behave in a far worse manner but which there are no boycott campaigns about and no official/ruling class support for such campaigns) will do any good. The people who really need to be hurt by this will not be affected by it anyway.


----------



## teqniq (Feb 21, 2013)

ok fair enough


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 21, 2013)

teqniq said:


> ok fair enough


 yeh no problem mate, its a difficult one!


----------



## sihhi (Feb 21, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> Not to mention the fact that it is used to promote zionist/nationalist politics in israel and abroad, the whole idea that the board of deputies of british jews did a while ago of a "buycott" delberately buying israeli goods to counteract the BDS movement, this is not like south africa and it's very important not to play into the hands of those on both sides who have an interest of stirring fear up, i don't think simply boycotting a country and pressurising the EU to impose trade restrictions (when zionist politicians can point to any example of countries who behave in a far worse manner but which there are no boycott campaigns about and no official/ruling class support for such campaigns) will do any good. The people who really need to be hurt by this will not be affected by it anyway.


 
There* are* British and EU capitalist trade restrictions on deals with Belarus, Iran and Syria, some are still in place against Burma.

I agree that the level of the apprehension of crimes in the Palestinian bantustans is limited, hence a BDS tactic now is likely to be ineffective BUT Zionism and nationalism doesn't need any BDS campaign to sustain itself either in Israel or abroad. It has its own dynamic and behaviour.

BDS is three tactics rolled into one hence the danger of opponents wilfully conflating with them with ease. It makes zero sense to try everything in one go. First the major struggle is stopping Western military aid and sales to Israel - given that hasn't been achieved, the others can't be (hence there's something absurd/conjuring a phantasm about worrying about the immediate effects a total sanctions situation on Israeli working-class populations).

However what is also damaging to the cause of Palestinian cultural and economic rights are the wider Western liberals (and occasionally the soft Israeli peace movement/left) denouncing so vigorously Western BDS activists as morally wrong and anti-Jewish.

That makes zero sense. Boycotts/Sanctions against Rhodesia and South Africa are OK because the colonialist ethnic group is a small minority, boycotts/sanctions against Israel are wrong because the colonialist ethnic group is a small minority. Sanctions against South Africa undoubtedly hurt the black working-class more than anyone else, and hurt the non-homeland black working-class more than the homeland black working-class. White South African anti-apartheid liberals like Helen Suzman strenuously opposed them, but they were the call of the black trade union movement. Sanctions and boycotts hurt in the same way that strikes hurt - they're part of struggle for a longer-term goal it's inescapable they're going to hurt.


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 21, 2013)

sihhi you make some good points - i'll try and come back to that post later and give it a proper reply that it deserves. agree with stopping military aid and sales to israel though, and i don't think i said it's wrong because the israelis are a small minority or that it's anti jewish, i don't think that and specifically said i didn't think it was racist, part of the reason why the situation might be different to south africa is because they're not such a small minority at all and on the whole have a far worse standard of living than the majority of white people in south africa who werea and still are pretty wealthy. however do you not think tactics like calling for trade restrictions and other measures could have something of a counterproductive effect on whether people supported this type of stuff _within israel itself_ and the idea of it could end up just fuelling people's paranoia?


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 21, 2013)

I'll try and give you your post a longer reply at some point, you make some good points.


----------



## sihhi (Feb 21, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> it's also very often (although not always) tied to simplistic anti imperialism and thinking that if israel was under palestinian control then the situation would be better when this is not the case, and a lot of the people calling for israel to be boycotted/excluded from things have done very similar things to how israel has treated the palestinians, maybe not quite as bad or exactly the same but getting there.


 
I'm not sure where the 'Israel under Palestinian control' part emerges from. That's just delusional right Zionist propaganda, similar to saffron claims about losing Srinagar.

Also how can the crimes at Marikana be blamed solely upon the South African state, Britain bears great responsibility for the creation and sustenance of Lonrho/Lonmin that is willing to invest in South Africa only on condition that it has armed police detachments available.


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 21, 2013)

sihhi said:


> I'm not sure where the 'Israel under Palestinian control' part emerges from. That's just delusional right Zionist propaganda, similar to saffron claims about losing Srinagar.
> 
> Also how can the crimes at Marikana be blamed solely upon the South African state, Britain bears great responsibility for the creation and sustenance of Lonrho/Lonmin that is willing to invest in South Africa only on condition that it has armed police detachments available.


 
I'm referring to what some of the palestinian nationalists say and calling for "Palestine from the river to the sea" etc. I'm not saying everyone thinks this or that it's an official stance or anything. Maybe that's not what they mean but that's how it comes across?

And I agree with you re: South Africa and Marikana, no argument there, but I was referring to countries like Morocco who have got a similar occupation regime going on in Western Sahara, and some of the regimes in the middle east who are taking part in the arab league boycott of Israel? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_League_boycott_of_Israel Sorry perhaps I should have made that clear!

eta: sorry wrong link, trying to find the right one


----------



## Idris2002 (Feb 21, 2013)

sihhi said:


> There* are* British and EU capitalist trade restrictions on deals with Belarus, Iran and Syria, some are still in place against Burma.
> 
> I agree that the level of the apprehension of crimes in the Palestinian bantustans is limited, hence a BDS tactic now is likely to be ineffective BUT Zionism and nationalism doesn't need any BDS campaign to sustain itself either in Israel or abroad. It has its own dynamic and behaviour.
> 
> ...


 
I was actually thinking of starting a thread on the question of whether we tend to overestimate the parallels between Israel apartheid SA and the Smith Regime.

Sure, the parallels are very, very real (ask any Palestinian), but I'd say there are key differences as well. The sense of existential threat on which Israel bases so much of its claim to legitimacy (i.e. the existence of a militant Jewish state as the only secure insurance against a repeat of the Shoah) is one. The white settler regimes may have feared being pushed into the sea (in that awful Wild Geese movie there's a scene where an SA mercenary has a good whinge about whites being pushed out of Africa), but really it's not comparable to what happened to the Jews of Europe.

The other is the different economic bases. SA and Rhodesia were/are primary commodity producers, and remained so even if sanctions led them to try and develop their own arms and consumer industries (I think Rhodesia produced its own record turntables for a long time). To keep going as commodity producers, they need the indigenous black majority. I'm open to correction on this, but my understanding is that Israel has moved towards much greater reliance on high-tech spin-offs from the arms industry (and a tight relationship with the US military-industrial complex?). That means they don't need a local proletariat as much (and would probably like to dispense with it altogether).

The second of these factors (the economic base requiring much less reliance on the indigenous population) removes a motive for compromise that did apply to the white settler regimes in Southern Africa. The first of these factors makes it far more ideologically unlikely, due to the emotional roots of that ideology, for Israel (leaders or masses) to even think of compromise.

So basing a choice of tactics on a crude parallel between southern Africa in the old days and Israel/Palestine today may not be a good idea.


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 21, 2013)

Idris2002 said:


> I was actually thinking of starting a thread on the question of whether we tend to overestimate the parallels between Israel apartheid SA and the Smith Regime.
> 
> Sure, the parallels are very, very real (ask any Palestinian), but I'd say there are key differences as well. The sense of existential threat on which Israel bases so much of its claim to legitimacy (i.e. the existence of a militant Jewish state as the only secure insurance against a repeat of the Shoah) is one. The white settler regimes may have feared being pushed into the sea (in that awful Wild Geese movie there's a scene where an SA mercenary has a good whinge about whites being pushed out of Africa), but really it's not comparable to what happened to the Jews of Europe.
> 
> ...


 
good post.


----------



## sihhi (Feb 21, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> sihhi you make some good points - i'll try and come back to that post later and give it a proper reply that it deserves. agree with stopping military aid and sales to israel though, and i don't think i said it's wrong because the israelis are a small minority or that it's anti jewish, i don't think that and specifically said i didn't think it was racist, part of the reason why the situation might be different to south africa is because they're not such a small minority at all and on the whole have a far worse standard of living than the majority of white people in south africa who werea and still are pretty wealthy.


 
Read carefully pls, I didn't say you had unless you want to characterise yourself as a Western liberal.

More importantly, can or should standards of living of the colonially preferred ethnic group determine sanctions? Should sanctions have been applied to Fiji in 1987 - an 'ethnic' military coup? To Poland in 1980? These aren't easy questions to answer. 
When the Soviet Union entered Afghanistan, the EEC as it was then blocked all food aid to Vietnam, ceased all food exports to the COMECON and Afghanistan, allowing aid only through military-run Pakistan. Again we don't want to be in the position of endorsing sanctions against Israel simply to aid an incipient Iran-Egypt-Turkey-Russia counter-power bloc. (I don't see it the countries in favour of sanctions are too diverse, but it's possible).

However, Israel carried out a massive military coup over Palestinian territories in 1967 and has not relinquished its territories except under some duress, as a result of military threat and opposition from its competitors. Unless we seek expanded _national war _some kind of sanctions is preferable to _defuse the situation_. Ideally yes, unmitigated class war, unsullied by the support of the present-day ANC or others, but certain immoveable objects like Israeli militarism block the situation. Military sanctions must be the start.



> however do you not think tactics like calling for trade restrictions and other measures could have something of a counterproductive effect on whether people supported this type of stuff _within israel itself_ and the idea of it could end up just fuelling people's paranoia?


 
Explain this one better. Isn't the paranoia already there? Doesn't every day in Ha'aretz give a clue as to how extensive this paranoia is. I'm not having a dig just want to understand what exactly you're saying.


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## frogwoman (Feb 21, 2013)

Idris2002 To be fair the NP based a lot of its support among the afrikaner w/c on the fear of the "swart gevaar" and reminding people of the boer war etc. I don't think the sense of the existential threat was wholly absent, but what I'd also say is that the majority of white people in south africa iirc were very wealthy compared to their black counterparts and were also a relatively homogenous group with the main groups being the english (who tended to be the wealthiest) and the rural farmers with only a small percentage relatively speaking of largely afrikaner working class people.

I'd also say that what's going on over there is quite a strange situation tbh and *within israel proper* the situation is undoubtedly better for some arab-israelis than it was under apartheid (I got an email today from the Chabad society inviting me to come and hear "Israel's first Bedouin diplomat" speak ffs) but within the palestinian territories what is going on over there is much, much worse and is ethnic cleansing or worse.


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## sihhi (Feb 21, 2013)

Idris2002 said:


> I was actually thinking of starting a thread on the question of whether we tend to overestimate the parallels between Israel apartheid SA and the Smith Regime. Sure, the parallels are very, very real (ask any Palestinian), but I'd say there are key differences as well. The sense of existential threat on which Israel bases so much of its claim to legitimacy (i.e. the existence of a militant Jewish state as the only secure insurance against a repeat of the Shoah) is one. The white settler regimes may have feared being pushed into the sea (in that awful Wild Geese movie there's a scene where an SA mercenary has a good whinge about whites being pushed out of Africa), but really it's not comparable to what happened to the Jews of Europe.


 
If South Africa or Rhodesia no good, why not the Caetano regime including colonies - also subject to sanctions. 



The existence of a Jewish or Jewish-based state is very well compatible with full Palestinian nationhood and independence.
There's something else driving this, and that is Western military support for Israel.




> The other is the different economic bases. SA and Rhodesia were/are primary commodity producers, and remained so even if sanctions led them to try and develop their own arms and consumer industries (I think Rhodesia produced its own record turntables for a long time). To keep going as commodity producers, they need the indigenous black majority. I'm open to correction on this, but my understanding is that Israel has moved towards much greater reliance on high-tech spin-offs from the arms industry (and a tight relationship with the US military-industrial complex?). That means they don't need a local proletariat as much (and would probably like to dispense with it altogether).


If they want to dispense with it, why don't they, retreat to the pre-1967 Green Line liberate the factories owned in Palestinian lands and start discussions on prisoner exchanges. They would if US and Western aid was restricted.





> The second of these factors (the economic base requiring much less reliance on the indigenous population) removes a motive for compromise that did apply to the white settler regimes in Southern Africa. The first of these factors makes it far more ideologically unlikely, due to the emotional roots of that ideology, for Israel (leaders or masses) to even think of compromise.
> 
> So basing a choice of tactics on a crude parallel between southern Africa in the old days and Israel/Palestine today may not be a good idea.


 

I think your overall analysis while correct don't try and repeat southern Africa all over again, removes the fact of Western, primarily US, sustenance of Israel.
If US aid and advantages were cut off, the compromise would begin to flow very quickly.

So in my opinion BDS can only make sense as a wider campaign against the bulwarks of US and Western power. Something BDS is unable to do because it is a Western campaign operated and motivated by Western liberals.

More generally, were the calls for sanctions on Chile wrong? Was China right to restart trade with Chile in 1977/8?


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## sihhi (Feb 21, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> I'd also say that what's going on over there is quite a strange situation tbh and *within israel proper* the situation is undoubtedly better for some arab-israelis than it was under apartheid (I got an email today from the Chabad society inviting me to come and hear "Israel's first Bedouin diplomat" speak ffs) but within the palestinian territories what is going on over there is much, much worse and is ethnic cleansing or worse.


 
Under apartheid, a black middle-class had developed by the 1980s. It was very strong in the homelands but also present in the unzoned parts of South Africa proper. Apartheid south Africa was a strange situation as well, but it shouldn't be our main and certainly not our only guide.


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## frogwoman (Feb 21, 2013)

sihhi said:


> Read carefully pls, I didn't say you had unless you want to characterise yourself as a Western liberal.


 
I don't 



> More importantly, can or should standards of living of the colonially preferred ethnic group determine sanctions? Should sanctions have been applied to Fiji in 1987 - an 'ethnic' military coup? To Poland in 1980? These aren't easy questions to answer.
> When the Soviet Union entered Afghanistan, the EEC as it was then blocked all food aid to Vietnam, ceased all food exports to the COMECON and Afghanistan, allowing aid only through military-run Pakistan. Again we don't want to be in the position of endorsing sanctions against Israel simply to aid an incipient Iran-Egypt-Turkey-Russia counter-power bloc. (I don't see it the countries in favour of sanctions are too diverse, but it's possible).


 
Well yes this is slightly concerning. As it happens I think that some loss of military support of Israel by the US is inevitable over the coming years as the US loses a lot of its political and military power and comes to see Israel as more of a liability than anything else, and you can already see signs of it.



> However, Israel carried out a massive military coup over Palestinian territories in 1967 and has not relinquished its territories except under some duress, as a result of military threat and opposition from its competitors. Unless we seek expanded _national war _some kind of sanctions is preferable to _defuse the situation_. Ideally yes, unmitigated class war, unsullied by the support of the present-day ANC or others, but certain immoveable objects like Israeli militarism block the situation. Military sanctions must be the start.


 
I agree with this. I am definitely with you on the military thing, but I also think that as well as talking about Israel the question should always be posed of a more anti militaristic campaign generally and the wider question of economic and political aid which is tied in to military aid. ETA: and the defence business *as a business* rather than "defence" or "patriotism" etc. (like for example the absurdity of British defence companies selling weapons which end up in the hands of the taliban, and british troops get shot with them).



> Explain this one better. Isn't the paranoia already there? Doesn't every day in Ha'aretz give a clue as to how extensive this paranoia is. I'm not having a dig just want to understand what exactly you're saying.


 
No problem sorry if it wasn't clear.

By this, I am referring to the idea of how to build support for an end to the conflict and a situation where zionism was overthrown or where the zionist regime *had lost the support of the majority of israelis*, within israel. I don't think what is happening in Israel can end, without the support of the Israeli working class.

If you call for and campaign for trade restrictions *from above *(ie argueing that the EU should or whatever, as many organisations like PSC aim to try and do, they aim to do things like for example lobby parliament to introduce these measures) rather than trade union boycotts targetted against weapons manufacturers etc, which i already said i support, and appear to be pandering to racist and religious nationalism, a huge number of people within israel would i suspect question why they should support such a thing. there have been massive popular and anti-war protests within israel within the last two years or so, against war, for better housing, against living conditions etc and a lot of people might ask why they should support something that attacks their already shit living conditions. I suppose what I'm saying is that something which appeared to treat Israel as like a special case, imposed from above and from bodies like the EU or the bloc you mentioned, could completely discredit the support for anything like this in israel and instead provoke a more extreme version of zionism and even fascism.

I hope thats clearer now anyway?


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## Idris2002 (Feb 21, 2013)

sihhi said:


> If South Africa or Rhodesia no good, why not the Caetano regime including colonies - also subject to sanctions.


 
Not sure what you mean here - but the Caetano regime was a) overthrown by army officers who were fed up with fighting a losing battle, and b) the Portugese economy was far more backward and underdeveloped than either the anglophone settler regimes or Israel would have been. So why not Caetano? Because the analogy doesn't stretch that far.





sihhi said:


> The existence of a Jewish or Jewish-based state is very well compatible with full Palestinian nationhood and independence.
> There's something else driving this, and that is Western military support for Israel.


 
In principle the two are compatible, but 65 years of war will have driven both sides to a state where they can't just have an amicable divorce. Also, doesn't the spread of settlements in the post-67 territories make it more and more unlikely? Sure, De Gaulle may have sold out the Pied Noirs to solve the Algerian war, but most of them weren't actually French. It would be a lot harder to extract the settlers from the occupied territories.





sihhi said:


> If they want to dispense with it, why don't they, retreat to the pre-1967 Green Line liberate the factories owned in Palestinian lands and start discussions on prisoner exchanges. They would if US and Western aid was restricted.


 
They might do that, or they might retreat into the comfort-zone of "no one likes us, we don't care".








sihhi said:


> I think your overall analysis while correct don't try and repeat southern Africa all over again, removes the fact of Western, primarily US, sustenance of Israel.
> If US aid and advantages were cut off, the compromise would begin to flow very quickly.
> 
> So in my opinion BDS can only make sense as a wider campaign against the bulwarks of US and Western power. Something BDS is unable to do because it is a Western campaign operated and motivated by Western liberals.
> ...


 
Well, China had already hired Milton Friedman to advise them on taking the capitalist road, so there was a whole host of bad ideas at work there. And was Chile ever seriously sanctioned? I remember Cecil Parkinson going to Santiago and saying "Pinoche's government is just like ours".

What would a BDS movement not crippled by liberalism look like?


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## frogwoman (Feb 21, 2013)

sihhi said:
			
		

> So in my opinion BDS can only make sense as a wider campaign against the bulwarks of US and Western power. Something BDS is unable to do because it is a Western campaign operated and motivated by Western liberals.


well said.

Yeah that's where I'm going with the anti military thing, rather than just calling for israeli military aid to be stopped how about looking at the whole defence industry itself and how it fuels itself and a whole self perpetuating industry of war, in israel, sri lanka, and many other states.


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## frogwoman (Feb 21, 2013)

the basic point is how are the majority of the israeli working class going to reject zionism and the israeli regime? I'm not sure the western bds movement in the current time is at all going to help anyone do that.


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## frogwoman (Feb 21, 2013)

I hope that's slightly clearer anyway mate! sihhi


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## Jeff Robinson (Feb 21, 2013)

Idris2002 said:


> I was actually thinking of starting a thread on the question of whether we tend to overestimate the parallels between Israel apartheid SA and the Smith Regime.
> 
> Sure, the parallels are very, very real (ask any Palestinian), but I'd say there are key differences as well. The sense of existential threat on which Israel bases so much of its claim to legitimacy (i.e. the existence of a militant Jewish state as the only secure insurance against a repeat of the Shoah) is one. The white settler regimes may have feared being pushed into the sea (in that awful Wild Geese movie there's a scene where an SA mercenary has a good whinge about whites being pushed out of Africa), but really it's not comparable to what happened to the Jews of Europe.
> 
> ...


 
Israel isn't going to get 'driven into the sea' anytime soon - not while it has nuclear weapons, a big fuck off army and all the Western military, economic, diplomatic etc aid it could possibily ask for. As for it's treatment of the Palestinian Arabs, arguably its worse (in the occupied territories) than blacks under aparthied. Former anti-aparthied activists who have visited the OTs have said as much. Up the 87 intifada the populations of the occupied territories were hyper-exploited in much the same way that SA blacks were (and still are) but once they became a security threat they have been gradually replaced by a super-exploited migrant labour force (much like in the Gulf States - UAE and other similar shitholes). The OT population have since been confined to giant ghettos in which they are subject to what can only be described as slow motion ethnic cleansing via land thefts, harassment, settler and army terror, blockades, checkpoints, seperation walls, water usurpation etc etc.

No problem with a comprehensive economic, cultural and academic boycott of Israel, indeed I think it's the only means available to put effective pressure on Israel and its backers to stop their systemic racist violence against the Palestinians. I do however think that contentious objectors, peaceniks, refusniks etc should be exempt from it.


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## sihhi (Feb 21, 2013)

Idris2002 said:


> Not sure what you mean here - but the Caetano regime was a) overthrown by army officers who were fed up with fighting a losing battle, and b) the Portugese economy was far more backward and underdeveloped than either the anglophone settler regimes or Israel would have been. So why not Caetano? Because the analogy doesn't stretch that far.


 
The point is, amongst other things, sanctions weakened it. NATO supplies eventually got cut off, new effective weapons were hard to supply against guerrilla weapons.

Sanctions are just one part of it, much of the situation will rest on Arab resistance.





> In principle the two are compatible, but 65 years of war will have driven both sides to a state where they can't just have an amicable divorce. Also, doesn't the spread of settlements in the post-67 territories make it more and more unlikely? Sure, De Gaulle may have sold out the Pied Noirs to solve the Algerian war, but most of them weren't actually French. It would be a lot harder to extract the settlers from the occupied territories.


 
What can the settlers do, the settlers themselves have light rifles remove the IDF and they are not match for Palestinian artillery or Arab firepower





> They might do that, or they might retreat into the comfort-zone of "no one likes us, we don't care".


 
South Africa did this from about 1977 onwards, it didn't bother trying to influence the Western media after the West endorsed a military (admittedly leaky) boycott at the UN. It threw Rhodesia under a bus, and escalated military training and conscription at home.




> Well, China had already hired Milton Friedman to advise them on taking the capitalist road, so there was a whole host of bad ideas at work there. And was Chile ever seriously sanctioned? I remember Cecil Parkinson going to Santiago and saying "Pinoche's government is just like ours".


 
China was wretched in 1977 but when did Friedman go to China and advise them? Wasn't that later?

Chile was solidly sanctioned by the Eastern bloc and quite solidly by most of the EEC, Ireland did well rescuing refugees from its embassy iirc, in fact the worst European country is again Britain .


> What would a BDS movement not crippled by liberalism look like?


 
Something like frogwoman suggests - a Boycott/Black/Don't Deal With Western military companies and their armed forces. See below.



frogwoman said:


> well said.
> 
> Yeah that's where I'm going with the anti military thing, rather than just calling for israeli military aid to be stopped how about looking at the whole defence industry itself and how it fuels itself and a whole self perpetuating industry of war, in israel, sri lanka, and many other states.


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## Idris2002 (Feb 21, 2013)

sihhi said:


> The point is, amongst other things, sanctions weakened it. NATO supplies eventually got cut off, new effective weapons were hard to supply against guerrilla weapons.
> 
> Sanctions are just one part of it, much of the situation will rest on Arab resistance.
> 
> ...


 
Woah, I knew I should have looked at this thread later.

1. I just tried to look up the Portugese experience, and it looks to me that while sanctions may have weakened the Caetano regime, Portugese underdevelopment made it especially vulnerable.

2. When Ian Smith declared UDI in 1965, there were calls for UK military intervention. These were dismissed on a "kith and kin" argument, i.e. one simply can't go and shoot one's cousins in the colonies, old chap, and after all a white man is a white man. IOW they feared a repeat of the Curragh mutiny if they moved against Smith. That might well go double for pulling the IDF out of the settlements. Also while the settlers in Gaza seem to have been that bit more extreme, and Gaza was considered much less of a prize, the settlers going into the west bank seem to be much more from the "Israeli mainstream" IYSWIM. So it might be harder to withdraw the IDF from there altogether.

3. Yeah, SA tried the "fuck the world" strategy after 1977, and it bought them another decade and a half. And the resolution there was at least partly down to fiscal crisis after 1985 making it harder to pay for the wars against the frontline states and the apartheid system, and the desire of the mining corporations to have a calmer situation in their properties. Again, the economic base makes it different.

4. I remember a piece about Chilean refugees in Ireland alright, in the Irish Times I think. As for China I'm pretty sure it was 1978, according to Naomi Klein's book.

5. Frogs is basically right about the need to focus on the military side of things, but that's a bigger ask than trying to organise say, an academic boycott.

Sorry if that's not as coherent as it could be, I need to finish up and get home. After I've finished reading about climate change and violence in Kenya.


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## frogwoman (Feb 21, 2013)

Ultimately I don't think zionism or the Israeli regime can be overthrown unless the majority of the Israeli working class feel that they have something to gain from doing so and I think unless it's done correctly without pandering to nationalist politicians from elsewhere in the arab world (and europe) it will just end up pissing people off because all it, (in its current form) is saying, is that israel is very bad and must be isolated with trade restrictions imposed from above - by lobbying parliament and EU politicians etc and not differentiating between say trade union boycotts of military sales and EU trade agreements. And you cannot overthrow the government of a state from the top down only to have the non involvement and active hostility of the majority of its people to that process and to a new regime - i think the history of what's happened elsewhere in the middle east and africa shows the consequences that can result if this happens.

Does that make sense or am I talking bollocks?


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## sihhi (Feb 21, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> By this, I am referring to the idea of how to build support for an end to the conflict and a situation where zionism was overthrown or where the zionist regime *had lost the support of the majority of israelis*, within israel. I don't think what is happening in Israel can end, without the support of the Israeli working class.
> 
> If you call for and campaign for trade restrictions *from above *(ie argueing that the EU should or whatever, as many organisations like PSC aim to try and do, they aim to do things like for example lobby parliament to introduce these measures) rather than trade union boycotts targetted against weapons manufacturers etc, which i already said i support, and appear to be pandering to racist and religious nationalism, a huge number of people within israel would i suspect question why they should support such a thing. *there have been massive popular and anti-war protests within israel within the last two years or so, against war, for better housing, against living conditions etc and a lot of people might ask why they should support something that attacks their already shit living conditions.* I suppose what I'm saying is that something which appeared to treat Israel as like a special case, imposed from above and from bodies like the EU or the bloc you mentioned, could completely discredit the support for anything like this in israel and instead provoke a more extreme version of zionism and even fascism.
> 
> I hope thats clearer now anyway?


 
This is I suspect where there will be disagreement. The nature of those protests that are firmly Zionist in attitude and outlook tending towards 'we want more state investment to overcome the crisis! Build more home built in east Jerusalem'. I don't know about internal Jewish politics, so I'll admit I'm probably approaching it all from a wider so perhaps inevitably(?) Arab perspective, but those protests seem a lot like those against Netanyahu mark one in the 1990s. There's little way they can achieve anything because the Israeli ruling class controls Israel and the occupied territories, so militarised that it is easy able to overcome any halt to production. The only way is if they target the Israeli ruling class alongside the Palestinian movement. However Palestinian anything let alone the militant Palestinian working-class sectors is more hated than the Israeli ruling class.
It's the same in Turkey, same in India, same in Sri Lanka, same in Morocco.


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## frogwoman (Feb 21, 2013)

sihhi said:


> This is I suspect where there will be disagreement. The nature of those protests that are firmly Zionist in attitude and outlook tending towards 'we want more state investment to overcome the crisis! Build more home built in east Jerusalem'. I don't know about internal Jewish politics, so I'll admit I'm probably approaching it all from a wider so perhaps inevitably(?) Arab perspective, but those protests seem a lot like those against Netanyahu mark one in the 1990s. There's little way they can achieve anything because the Israeli ruling class controls Israel and the occupied territories, so militarised that it is easy able to overcome any halt to production. The only way is if they target the Israeli ruling class alongside the Palestinian movement. However Palestinian anything let alone the militant Palestinian working-class sectors is more hated than the Israeli ruling class.
> It's the same in Turkey, same in India, same in Sri Lanka, same in Morocco.


 
No no, I agree with you completely there about the protests and there is a big element of that!! the question is how do you help these protests etc get away from that nationalistic, zionist character? there have been joint israeli/palestinian strikes in for example a haifa chemical factory and among social workers. the question is how do you encourage this? I don't know really ...


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## teqniq (Feb 21, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> well said.
> 
> Yeah that's where I'm going with the anti military thing, rather than just calling for israeli military aid to be stopped how about looking at the whole defence industry itself and how it fuels itself and a whole self perpetuating industry of war, in israel, sri lanka, and many other states.


Nail on head. But I think that although Israel receives a great deal of aid especially from the U.S. it is also involved in a number of military projects with overseas companies/governments. The Watchkeeper drone project is one such example.


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## frogwoman (Feb 21, 2013)

teqniq said:


> Nail on head. But I think that although Israel receives a great deal of aid especially from the U.S. it is also involved in a number of military projects with overseas companies/governments. The Watchkeeper drone project is one such example.


 
yep and it's not the only country that does so. Agree with a huge part of its industry being about defence though.


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## frogwoman (Feb 21, 2013)

> There's little way they can achieve anything because the Israeli ruling class controls Israel and the occupied territories, so militarised that it is easy able to overcome any halt to production.


 
Yep - this - and unfortunately what refuseniks there have been in Israel often tend to be people from relatively well-off backgrounds who can deal with the consequences of refusing military service, social ostracision, difficulty in finding employment and a spell in prison etc better than most.  

I'm really not sure what to do really.


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## bolshiebhoy (Feb 21, 2013)

Galloway is an idiot but my old LSE logic teacher and marxist scholar Moshe Machover (would GG have spoken to him before he became a British citizen?!)  has been right since 1969 when he first argued that the path to socialism in Palestine won't be through the Jewish working class, who because of their material ties to zionism and imperialism won't move en masse onto our side until very late in the game. None of which is an excuse for not talking to / debating / convincing individual Israelis.


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## frogwoman (Feb 21, 2013)

bolshiebhoy said:


> Galloway is an idiot but my old LSE logic teacher and marxist scholar Moshe Machover (would GG have spoken to him before he became a British citizen?!) has been right since 1969 when he first argued that the path to socialism in Palestine won't be through the Jewish working class, who because of their material ties to zionism and imperialism won't move en masse onto our side until very late in the game. None of which is an excuse for not talking to / debating / convincing individual Israelis.


 
Would the same go for the british working class when much of the country's wealth and is as a result of the defence industry (much of the manufacturing in this country is defence-related) and britain became a "developed nation" as quickly as it did as a result of wealth built over past colonial possessions? Perhaps thats an oversimplification of his argument but the way you've presented it here seems a bit dubious to say the least.


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## bolshiebhoy (Feb 21, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> Would the same go for the british working class when much of the country's wealth and is as a result of the defence industry (much of the manufacturing in this country is defence-related) and britain became a "developed nation" as quickly as it did as a result of wealth built over past colonial possessions? Perhaps thats an oversimplification of his argument but the way you've presented it here seems a bit dubious to say the least.


This is Moshe's original argument, still holds imho: http://www.isreview.org/issues/23/class_character_israel.shtml

I know the SP continue the Millie workerist approach that class is class is class but sometimes class gets overdetermined by politics and a settler working class built on the exclusion of arab workers has very different relations to the means of production to workers in an advanced imperialist country like Britain. The day Israeli Jewish workers show the sort of solidarity for Arabs that the Lancashire cotton workers did for slaves during the American civil war then I'll be convinced but the history of zionism suggests otherwise.


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## phildwyer (Feb 21, 2013)

Idris2002 said:


> the settlers going into the west bank seem to be much more from the "Israeli mainstream" IYSWIM.


 
Only if what you mean is "Brooklyn."


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## frogwoman (Feb 21, 2013)

bolshiebhoy said:


> This is Moshe's original argument, still holds imho: http://www.isreview.org/issues/23/class_character_israel.shtml
> 
> I know the SP continue the Millie workerist approach that class is class is class but sometimes class gets overdetermined by politics and a settler working class built on the exclusion of arab workers has very different relations to the means of production to workers in an advanced imperialist country like Britain. The day Israeli Jewish workers show the sort of solidarity for Arabs that the Lancashire cotton workers did for slaves during the American civil war then I'll be convinced but the history of zionism suggests otherwise.


 
first of which Israelis do you mean. It's not a homogenous group. A huge number of them are refugees from other countries which the zionist movement and later on the israeli state encouraged to come to israel on the grounds that it was defending jews around the world (actually to form a bulwark against the palestinians) which were fleeing genuine anti-semitic repression. a lot of them, particularly mizrahi jews and sephardim, have done exactly what you said and did link up at least to some extent with palestinian workers (there was the Israeli black panther party for example which was made up of mizrahi and black jews). from what i can tell there is quite a degree of sympathy with the palestinians among these people. there is a lot of zionist/nationalist reaction as well yes. then there are russians and others from the FSU with jewish ancestry who came to israel in the hope of finding jobs in the wake of the collapse of the USSR, only to find that they were treated as second class citizens. some of them form a key electoral support of people like Lieberman etc while a very small minority of them have turned to neo-nazism (and i mean actual neo-nazism not its zionist equivalent). there are that section of the haredim who oppose zionism on religious grounds and most of them do not rely on the israeli state, many of them do not claim benefits or take salaries (except by working for other haredim) or pay into the system in any way and do not accept secular israeli authority in any way or even acknowledge it.

it is a bit misleading to say the least to put the israeli w/c into one homogenous group and say they all rely on zionism for material interests, many of them experience the zionist state in the same way any other w/c people see any state anywhere else when they try to struggle for better conditions. 

a very simplistic argument imo.


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## frogwoman (Feb 21, 2013)

phildwyer said:


> Only if what you mean is "Brooklyn."


 
The Israeli gov't builds subsidised housing for people wishing to settle in those areas and has also deliberately encouraged people to move to places like Sderot etc.


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## frogwoman (Feb 21, 2013)

> I know the SP continue the Millie workerist approach that class is class is class


 
that's not a workerist approach a workerist approach would be saying that zionism etc is all right because some working class people agree with it. the biggest discrimination is economic and the israeli state survives off the backs of the israeli and palestinian w/c. for many of them they experience it as an extremely oppressive regime. there is nothing controversial in that surely?


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## audiotech (Feb 21, 2013)

Galloway, as MP for Bradford West, knew what he was doing and there's elections coming up in Newham. A campaign started now.

I also see that Oona King is in the House of Lords with the grand title, Baroness King of Bow.

Politicians eh.


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## bolshiebhoy (Feb 21, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> first of which Israelis do you mean. It's not a homogenous group. A huge number of them are refugees from other countries which the zionist movement and later on the israeli state encouraged to come to israel on the grounds that it was defending jews around the world (actually to form a bulwark against the palestinians) which were fleeing genuine anti-semitic repression. a lot of them, particularly mizrahi jews and sephardim, have done exactly what you said and did link up at least to some extent with palestinian workers (there was the Israeli black panther party for example which was made up of mizrahi and black jews). from what i can tell there is quite a degree of sympathy with the palestinians among these people. there is a lot of zionist/nationalist reaction as well yes. then there are russians and others from the FSU with jewish ancestry who came to israel in the hope of finding jobs in the wake of the collapse of the USSR, only to find that they were treated as second class citizens. some of them form a key electoral support of people like Lieberman etc while a very small minority of them have turned to neo-nazism (and i mean actual neo-nazism not its zionist equivalent). there are that section of the haredim who oppose zionism on religious grounds and most of them do not rely on the israeli state, many of them do not claim benefits or take salaries (except by working for other haredim) or pay into the system in any way and do not accept secular israeli authority in any way or even acknowledge it.
> 
> it is a bit misleading to say the least to put the israeli w/c into one homogenous group and say they all rely on zionism for material interests, many of them experience the zionist state in the same way any other w/c people see any state anywhere else when they try to struggle for better conditions.
> 
> a very simplistic argument imo.


Did you read Moshe's article? I can't do it justice in one paragraph but it's far from simplistic, in fact he mentions the Panthers as you do but overall his carefully arrived at conclusion is that class, for most Jewish Israelis is secondary to ethnicity. And will be until the Arab working class makes the Zionist state no longer of use to imperialism. The crucial point is that Israel is neither a classic capitalist nor colonial society. It is financed (massively) by imperialism without being exploited by imperialism. It's Jewish workers enjoy a standard of living on a par with European or US workers because of that financing and the role of zionism as watchdog and not because of their role in the economy as workers. It's unions we're built on the exclusion of Arab labour and have never, not once, shown the slightest opposition to the Zionist carve up. British unions have a long and proud history of opposition to war and solidarity with foreign struggles. The Histadrut has never summoned so much as a squeak for the victims of imperialist war living a stones throw away.


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## frogwoman (Feb 21, 2013)

bolshiebhoy That's more to do with the histadrut's historic role as being tied to the israeli state though, there are independent trade unions in israel as well that are not affiliated to histadrut such as the union "power to the workers" and others i think. there are plenty of other trade union federations that basically toe the govt line in everything. And these days it does admit arab workers (altho it took them long enough!)


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## frogwoman (Feb 21, 2013)

bolshiebhoy said:


> This is Moshe's original argument, still holds imho: http://www.isreview.org/issues/23/class_character_israel.shtml
> 
> I know the SP continue the Millie workerist approach that class is class is class but sometimes class gets overdetermined by politics and a settler working class built on the exclusion of arab workers has very different relations to the means of production to workers in an advanced imperialist country like Britain. The day Israeli Jewish workers show the sort of solidarity for Arabs that the Lancashire cotton workers did for slaves during the American civil war then I'll be convinced but the history of zionism suggests otherwise.


 
I'm reading it now thanks for that. Can see a few problems with it straight away (talking for instance about class consciousness etc not being present in israeli workers whereas it does in french and british workers who when asked about their origins always say they're working class - not sure that's true imo they're as likely to say what town or region they're from!) and is this not somewhat to do with the importance of ethnic categories which is insisted upon by zionism and which has become part of the culture?

Also saying the are not exploited by imperialism - imperialism does not have to be direct and i can think of several ways in which they are in fact exploited ...

I'll read it more in depth tomorrow tho,am a little tired right now!


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## gosub (Feb 22, 2013)

http://www.bdsmovement.net/2013/bds...ott-of-individuals-10679#.USZI1-lj8pY.twitter

BDS does not call for a boycott of individuals because she or he happens to be Israeli or because they express certain views.


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## frogwoman (Feb 22, 2013)

well yeah i dont agree with a lot of it but it's not racist.


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## DexterTCN (Feb 25, 2013)

Galloway responds.


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## Balbi (Feb 25, 2013)

Galloway doesn't recognise lots of things though. Dignity, humility, Israelis. He views them as some sort of amorphous grey cloud


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## cesare (Feb 25, 2013)

Anyone get further than 6.18?


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## coley (Feb 25, 2013)

JHE said:


> He's not buried.


He should be, hes an egotistic offensive git


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## Lemon Eddy (Feb 25, 2013)

cesare said:


> Anyone get further than 6.18?


 
I got to 11 seconds and his statement that his programme "can only be a debate if you join in", at which point my hypocrisy threshold tripped and I had to have a cup of tea.


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## Random (Mar 1, 2013)

Not sure where else to put this. Wanted to share the satirical War Nerd's description of what it's like for Brit like Galloway in America:

"We Yanks (a word never used by any Yank in history, by the way) use language to lean into each other, to find the ol’ “consensus."...

If you understand that, you’re well ahead on getting the local politics and a lot else, up to and including the stateside career of the late and over-lamented Christopher Hitchens. Hitchens was a Brit; he’d been trained to use language to hurt people. Americans are damn good at hurting people, but not with language. More with silence. Well, silence and Glocks. Well, Glocks and bombs.

The Brits, without so many Glocks, have to fight like mere primitives, with words and fists and feet...

That’s for the commoners. In Hitch’s world, you smash people’s faces with words, and when someone from that school hits the ground in DC, he’s like Superman landing on Earth and finding out he can just put his fist through the locals as if they were jell-o statues. And not just Hitch, either; if you saw George Galloway vs. Sen. Norm Coleman, you saw a Brit street-mouth fighter end the career of a mealymouthed, consensus-sucking American politician in ten minutes. Oh, and on the way to the hearing where he mulched Coleman, Galloway paused long enough to TKO Hitch, who tried to ambush him. The argument between Hitch and Galloway was like that scene from the old Superman movie where a couple of other expats from Krypton landed on earth, and for once Superman had to fight hard enough to work up a sweat, while the helpless papier-mache earthlings hid and screeched."
https://www.nsfwcorp.com/dispatch/cunt


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## DexterTCN (Mar 1, 2013)

Lemon Eddy said:


> I got to 11 seconds and his statement that his programme "can only be a debate if you join in", at which point my hypocrisy threshold tripped and I had to have a cup of tea.


That's his programme.  People come to him to debate.   So if you went in then left after 10 seconds....you're just doing what he did in the Oxford thing, no?


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## butchersapron (Mar 4, 2013)

DexterTCN said:


> That's his programme. People come to him to debate. So if you went in then left after 10 seconds....you're just doing what he did in the Oxford thing, no?


No. What a useless comparison. If he blocked callers because of their nationality then you might have a point. That would be a terrible near racist thing to do though wouldn't it dexter?


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## coley (Mar 4, 2013)

Really tried to be fair and watch it all but he is such a Shyte, he doesn't want change in Israel he wants extermination, he's obviously playing to his paymasters


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## Lemon Eddy (Mar 4, 2013)

DexterTCN said:


> That's his programme. People come to him to debate. So if you went in then left after 10 seconds....you're just doing what he did in the Oxford thing, no?


 
You think there's an equivalence to George Galloway walking out of an organised debate because of the nationality of the person he was due to talk to, and me turning his radio show off because in a matter of seconds the level of hypocrisy had become laughable.

The next time I call into his show, then refuse to debate because I've just realised he's Scottish, you can accuse me of "doing what he did in the Oxford thing".  Until that happens, there's precisely fuck all comparable in the situations.


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## butchersapron (Oct 25, 2013)

Is this new? Am I posting old news? 

All five of #Bradford's #Respect councillors have formally resigned from party and will sit as independents-say its not run democratically


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## Spanky Longhorn (Oct 25, 2013)

Today is the confirmation of something that really happened awhile ago - so both old and new news


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## DotCommunist (Oct 25, 2013)

I hope he takes his battlebus to london during his futile bid for the mayoral role


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## torquemad (Oct 25, 2013)

DexterTCN said:


> *That's his programme.  People come to him to debate.*



Well, all these years I must have been listening to different radio stations/ call-in progs to you. Gorgeous is an archetypal bully, he controls the volume switch so the only people who get airtime on his shows are arse-licking sycophants. Anyone challenging what he says gets short shrift indeed.

I applaud what he did in the US Senate/ Congress. Less so the Big Brother House.

All in all, he is a bully and a political thug. With an ego the size of the planet. And now his experiment in building a democratic party (sic) has come down round his ears in Bradford due to his dislike of the process democratic. 

What a surrprise!


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## Sasaferrato (Oct 25, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> he's a cunt, as i said eight or nine years ago.



Diito. Well I've been saying it for longer, but I'm older than you.


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## LiamO (Oct 26, 2013)

torquemad said:


> Well, all these years I must have been listening to different radio stations/ call-in progs to you. Gorgeous is an archetypal bully, he controls the volume switch so the only people who get airtime on his shows are arse-licking sycophants.



That's simply not true... he regularly invites reactionary half-wits to contribute... and rips them to fuck. So inviting many othet=r people to do the same ... in their workplace/pub/wherever. Fair play to him


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