# Self performs delicious Hatchet Job on Kermode



## Orang Utan (Oct 17, 2013)

Miaow
http://www.theguardian.com/books/2013/oct/09/hatchet-job-mark-kermode-review


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## gabi (Oct 17, 2013)

hang on... will self is accusing somebody else of arrogance?  jesus christ.

breathtaking.


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## barney_pig (Oct 17, 2013)

Self likes inchoate, a lot.


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## Belushi (Oct 17, 2013)

As Jonny Vegas put it 'You're just a wordy twat'


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## bi0boy (Oct 17, 2013)

Belushi said:


> As Jonny Vegas put it 'You're just a wordy twat'


 
Who is, Self or Kermode? Or maybe "the Guardian Culture section"?


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## gabi (Oct 17, 2013)

Will Self seems to think that owning a thesaurus makes him the smartest man alive. In actual fact he's just an arrogant cock.


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## Orang Utan (Oct 17, 2013)

Nothing wrong with enjoying using words. He's a writer. He should.


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## fredfelt (Oct 17, 2013)

Maybe a wordy twat but it was a pleasure finding out that these words existed and what they mean...

Cognate, Shibboleth, Inchote, Solecism


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## RedDragon (Oct 17, 2013)

I read this last week, I thought Self came across as a right pillock. Seriously, couldn't he find a better target.


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## ringo (Oct 17, 2013)

Great use of the English language, good vocabularies should be celebrated. 

Liked Self's dig about the cultural and artistic significance of film reviews, but even that isn't totally convincing. Film making is an art form, even if denigrated by the tidal wave of blockbuster shite most of Hollywood's dollar creates, so quality aside surely its as valid to write about it as any other art form?

Never the most likable chap, but I'd love to have him over for dinner, he'd be an entertaining guest. He does descend here into his usual criticism that its not as good a book as it might have been if he'd written it himself though.


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## Stigmata (Oct 17, 2013)

It reads like the written version of a successful round of _Just a Minute_


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## PursuedByBears (Oct 17, 2013)

bi0boy said:


> Who is, Self or Kermode? Or maybe "the Guardian Culture section"?


All of the above?


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## Gramsci (Oct 19, 2013)

The second half of the article he does make interesting point.

Will need to read Marshall McLuhan's _Understanding Media._

I do not agree that film and cinema is going to die out. It survived the advent of television.

Self argument is, as he says in article, also applicable to the novel.

Heard him talking about James Joyce recently. He said he is regarded as difficult writer. But he is not. However the public like more traditional narrative novels and that is what gets published.

Same with film. I do not see it dying out. What is more likely is the increase in popularity of TV series that are well written. Such as the Wire and Sopranos. They have wide audience.

So will the change in the medium ( the internet) bring in new forms?



> McLuhan's global village is indeed all about us now, and it already exhibits social, psychological and cultural behaviours that are entirely different from those implicit in the technologies of mass broadcast and individual, concentrated absorption.



I would have liked it if he had said what these behaviours are. As I am not sure myself.

What the Gutenberg press brought was a democratization of the printed word. No longer was it the preserve of only the wealthy who could afford it. Same goes for the internet.


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## Casually Red (Oct 19, 2013)

i just gave up at the second _solecism_


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## weltweit (Oct 19, 2013)

Self and Kermode, they deserve each other.

Both arrogant, up themselves twats of the highest order, pompous, slightly ridiculous and like to lord it over the rest of us.


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## Buddy Bradley (Oct 20, 2013)

fredfelt said:


> Maybe a wordy twat but it was a pleasure finding out that these words existed and what they mean...
> 
> Cognate, Shibboleth, Inchote, Solecism


You missed 'otiose'.


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## Hocus Eye. (Oct 20, 2013)

Anyway it is inchoate not inchote. That is a solecism 

Interesting that Self suggests that Kermode hasn't read Marshal Mcluhen when Kermode used the phrase "the medium is the message" which was famously coined by Mcluhen. Why would he not have? It is a seminal work in media analysis and he must be familiar with it in his trade.


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## maomao (Oct 20, 2013)

Hocus Eye. said:


> Anyway it is inchoate not inchote. That is a solecism



No it's not it's a spelling mistake.


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## emanymton (Oct 20, 2013)

If he's supposed to be so bloody good with words, how come there is not one mention of the fact that the blokes name is 'Kermode'.


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## fishfinger (Oct 20, 2013)

emanymton said:


> If he's supposed to be so bloody good with words, how come there is not one mention of the fact that the blokes name is 'Kermode'.



First line of the review: "I've seen Mark Kermode about the place over the years..."

And several more times in the review.


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## DotCommunist (Oct 20, 2013)

kermode-commode gag



anyway of the two I am on team self because he has a sensible haircut anlike kermode who seems to think its 1950s usa


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## fishfinger (Oct 20, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> kermode-commode gag
> 
> 
> 
> anyway of the two I am on team self because he has a sensible haircut anlike kermode who seems to think its 1950s usa



Ahh!


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## butchersapron (Oct 20, 2013)

Which of the two is it that describes himself as a die-hard leftie and then sent his kid to private school (after going down the usual private school then oxbridge route himself)?


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## Hocus Eye. (Oct 20, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> kermode-commode gag
> 
> 
> 
> anyway of the two I am on team self because he has a sensible haircut anlike kermode who seems to think its 1950s usa


I have always wondered about his hair style. I guess it is because he plays double bass in a skiffle band and that is his image of himself.


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## butchersapron (Oct 20, 2013)

Maybe he likes it?


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## killer b (Oct 20, 2013)

it's certainly an odd thing to be complaining about. he likes the rockabilly look, so what? i'd probably rock a quiff sometimes too, if it were possible...


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## Stigmata (Oct 20, 2013)

I like Kermode. We use the same multiplex (Vue Eastleigh) and I usually agree with his reviews.


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## JimW (Oct 20, 2013)

Realised despite being aware of Self due to his various media spats and that never actually read anything by him. This is much too try-hard and his fancy vocab is poorly deployed - like that thing with the "otiose"; while "becoming otiose" is I suppose not technically wrong it's a poor combination, as I reckon it's a state you're in or not, and the idea of a transition to it doesn't sit right.


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## butchersapron (Oct 20, 2013)

Self sounds like some desperate old fart trying to look like he's hip in front of young kids with that gutenberg minds crap - like articul8 imagining liking dada in 2014 breaks the western cultural tradition in two. And on top of that, a good chunk of his output is exactly the sort of criticism that he so my-little-ponyily attacks from Kermode.


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## butchersapron (Oct 20, 2013)

JimW said:


> Realised despite being aware of Self due to his various media spats and that never actually read anything by him. This is much too try-hard and his fancy vocab is poorly deployed - like that thing with the "otiose"; while "becoming otiose" is I suppose not technically wrong it's a poor combination, as I reckon it's a state you're in or not, and the idea of a transition to it doesn't sit right.


I felt truly embarrassed for him when i read this line:



> over some 300 pages oddly modulates into melioristic mooing


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## JimW (Oct 20, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> I felt truly embarrassed for him when i read this line:


Strikes me that none of those sort of words are in there because that's what he wanted/needed to say (and I've no problem with big words if they do the job right) but because he wanted to use the big words. Which is bad writing.


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## fogbat (Oct 20, 2013)

weltweit said:


> Self and Kermode, they deserve each other.
> 
> Both arrogant, up themselves twats of the highest order, pompous, slightly ridiculous and like to lord it over the rest of us.



Could you provide some examples of when Self and Kermode "lord it over the rest of us"?


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## weltweit (Oct 20, 2013)

fogbat said:


> Could you provide some examples of when Self and Kermode "lord it over the rest of us"?


 
Whenever they write or speak, respectively.


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## fogbat (Oct 20, 2013)

weltweit said:


> Whenever they write or speak, respectively.



And how exactly is their speaking / writing "lording"?


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## weltweit (Oct 20, 2013)

fogbat said:


> And how exactly is their speaking / writing "lording"?


 
My impression of Will Self, reinforced whenever I read anything from him, usually by accident as I try to avoid him, and his occasional appearances for example on Question Time, reinforce my belief that he sees himself as some kind of superior being. This is reinforced by his use of quaint, irregular, unusual and plain abnormal language, which he seems to use again to reinforce the idea that he is above the rest of us plebs.

Kermode is the same. Only when he is reviewing films, mainly.

They deserve each other. Ironic therefore that Self has attacked Kermode.


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## Belushi (Oct 20, 2013)

I'm not a great fan of Kermode's reviews as a rule but I've never thought the language he uses is obscure or unusual.


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## Lemon Eddy (Oct 20, 2013)

JimW said:


> Strikes me that none of those sort of words are in there because that's what he wanted/needed to say (and I've no problem with big words if they do the job right) but because he wanted to use the big words. Which is bad writing.



Prior to this article I'd never heard of meliorism. Having looked it up I'm now not sure why Self feels it's an insult, unless he's implying naivety.


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## weltweit (Oct 20, 2013)

They both share the attitude of the critic, writing or speaking as one it is easy to sneer at the efforts of others. It is easy to give the impression that the critic could of course do much better than the hapless critiqued one. Just my impressions. As a result of these though I try to avoid both of them.


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## DotCommunist (Oct 20, 2013)

when it comes to tele film reviews I actually prefer Jonathon Ross. OK so he's a bit of a bellend but he clearly knows his business, even if I didn't always agree.


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## butchersapron (Oct 20, 2013)

Lemon Eddy said:


> Prior to this article I'd never heard of meliorism. Having looked it up I'm now not sure why Self feels it's an insult, unless he's implying naivety.


It's because he's a well-practicised ennuist who has seen through everything - _haven't i kids, look, i'm being sneery. Look!_


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## weltweit (Oct 20, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> when it comes to tele film reviews I actually prefer Jonathon Ross. OK so he's a bit of a bellend but he clearly knows his business, even if I didn't always agree.


I agree, though JR is often, like Graham Norton engaged in blowing smoke up the overpaid actors arses .... I prefer face to face friendly comment and humour to remote sneering.


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## JimW (Oct 20, 2013)

Lemon Eddy said:


> Prior to this article I'd never heard of meliorism. Having looked it up I'm now not sure why Self feels it's an insult, unless he's implying naivety.


Yep, good point (Ididn't know what it meant either); looks like another example of expressing himself poorly because he's insisting on using the more obscure word.


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## Lemon Eddy (Oct 20, 2013)

Belushi said:


> I'm not a great fan of Kermode's reviews as a rule but I've never thought the language he uses is obscure or unusual.



It's not.  

http://www.rottentomatoes.com/critic/mark-kermode/


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## butchersapron (Oct 20, 2013)

JimW said:


> Yep, good point (Ididn't know what it meant either); looks like another example of expressing himself poorly because he's insisting on using the more obscure word.


And more to the point, the whole tone and argument of his own piece can be characterised as melioristic. The entering of a brave new and better world, one of...the internet! Like some piece from 20 years ago. That he needs to act the cynic on top of this only exposes that he is self aware enough to know that he needs to adopt a mask in order to undermine his own meliorism.


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## youngian (Oct 20, 2013)

> This is an observation Kermode wishes to extend to every aspect of the web revolution, but I somehow doubt that he's ever actually read Marshall McLuhan's _Understanding Media_; or, if he did, he simply cannot have understood it.


Self obviously knows Kermode has a love of Annie Hall.



> Kermode, himself an enthusiastic blogger, concedes that film criticism under the aegis of the web has become more a conversation than a series of declarations; what he can't bear to contemplate is that films also may become dialogic.



No-one would deny passion for film like any art is partly about the pleasure of debate and always has been. So I've completely missed the point as to what Self is driving at or he is just inventing contrarian Aunt Sallies to complete his word count.



> Why not? For those who think that narrative art forms are in a state of crystalline stasis it's worth taking a slightly longer view:



What Kermode is arguing when he complains about 3D for example is that film medium has found its form. Most modern painters deliver their art using the same size frame and similar canvas, brushes and colours as Titian would have done. There have been a few innovations on the way (as film has with the incorporation of sound and colour) but it has not been superseded by holographic and stereogram screen projection (which there is a place for of course).

A few important technological innovations stick but most come and go ('3D' stereograms being an Edwardian fairground novelty). As audiences haven't even taken to high definition frames that digital technology allow. I buy Kermode's argument.

And Self is actually reinforcing that view by comparing his patronising view of texting yoof with his own art form which he frames in reference to 15th century printer Gutenberg.


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## butchersapron (Oct 20, 2013)

youngian said:


> Self obviously knows Kermode has a love of Annie Hall.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You'll not also that Self never questions the role of the author, of the central piece of the gutenbreg mind. That's not questioned - the content provider is sacrosanct, the critic obliterated. It reads like Anthony Trollope  praising  tumblr rather than the brave embrace of a new flatter world.


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## redsquirrel (Oct 20, 2013)

killer b said:


> it's certainly an odd thing to be complaining about. he likes the rockabilly look, so what? i'd probably rock a quiff sometimes too, if it were possible...


Aye I'm rather jealous of his hair(cut).


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## redsquirrel (Oct 20, 2013)

weltweit said:


> They both share the attitude of the critic, writing or speaking as one it is easy to sneer at the efforts of others. It is easy to give the impression that the critic could of course do much better than the hapless critiqued one. Just my impressions. As a result of these though I try to avoid both of them.


What absolute rubbish, a good critic doesn't just say five stars but places the piece of work in it's context, brings out themes in the work. Good to see your "impressions" in this are as wrong as they are in everything else.


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## weltweit (Oct 20, 2013)

redsquirrel said:


> What absolute rubbish, a good critic doesn't just say five stars but places the piece of work in it's context, brings out themes in the work. Good to see your "impressions" in this are as wrong as they are in everything else.


Wow, now my utterances in their totality are wrong, wonderful ... high on your high horse is it?


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## butchersapron (Oct 20, 2013)

weltweit said:


> Wow, now my utterances in their totality are wrong, wonderful ... high on your high horse is it?


Have someone upped your dose of stupid pills or something these last few weeks?


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## weltweit (Oct 20, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Have someone upped your dose of stupid pills or something these last few weeks?


Nowhere near to your usual dose no.


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## butchersapron (Oct 20, 2013)

weltweit said:


> Nowhere near to your usual dose no.


So you've actually been making a dedicated independent effort to say more stupid things? To sound more banal and trite than normal?


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## weltweit (Oct 20, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> So you've actually been making a dedicated independent effort to say more stupid things? To sound more banal and trite than normal?


 
Not too bad as responses go, but I have seen better.


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## Part 2 (Oct 20, 2013)

If there was a choice between Noel Gallagher and Will Self I can't help thinking I'd go with Noel.


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## youngian (Oct 20, 2013)

JimW said:


> Strikes me that none of those sort of words are in there because that's what he wanted/needed to say (and I've no problem with big words if they do the job right) but because he wanted to use the big words. Which is bad writing.



I usually like a writer who introduces me to a new word or phrase but I find Self's obscure superfluous ones about as useful as a Medieval edition of Call my Bluff.

And he makes clumsy use of them that only makes his writing more ugly and unnecessarily incoherent.


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## Frances Lengel (Oct 20, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> when it comes to tele film reviews I actually prefer Jonathon Ross. OK so he's a bit of a bellend but he clearly knows his business, even if I didn't always agree.



I prefer Claudia Winkleman, me.


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## maomao (Oct 20, 2013)

I thought Mark Kermode and Mark Lamarr were the same person for ages.


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## barney_pig (Oct 20, 2013)

Kermodes radio show is entertaining and his reviews are useful, at least half the show consists of listeners letters and emails providing their own assessments if the reviewed films and agreeing with or disagreeing with the reviews given. Kermode engages with these and even changes his mind when faced with a cogent argument. I enjoy that he does not talk down to the audience, but doesn't hide behind academic gobbledygook, simon mayo teases him whenever that looks likely to happen.
   Apart from his inexplicable love for Richard Curtis he would be perfect.
And I like the hair.
 Self is a tosser.


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## white rabbit (Oct 20, 2013)

Chip Barm said:


> If there was a choice between Noel Gallagher and Will Self I can't help thinking I'd go with Noel.


This it the Noel Gallagher who said reading books is a waste of time.


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## butchersapron (Oct 20, 2013)

white rabbit said:


> This it the Noel Gallagher who said reading books is a waste of time.


Now you're getting it.


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## white rabbit (Oct 20, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Now you're getting it.


Its a point of view, I suppose.


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## laptop (Oct 20, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> It's because he's a well-practicised ennuist who has seen through everything



This is an expert opinion, TBF.


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## white rabbit (Oct 20, 2013)

This must sting. Kermode likes to quote that scene in Annie Hall where the Woody Allen character produces Marshall McLuhan from behind a bush to berate a pompous loudmouth standing in line. Here, Self does it to him. Ouch!


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## butchersapron (Oct 20, 2013)

Do what?


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## Casually Red (Oct 20, 2013)

i really cant understand what people have against Kermode . Ive never seen him use over flowery or deliberately obscure language in his reviews . His stuff is pretty accessible and to the point . Some of the stuff he reviews is very arty, sure, but its his job to review it . Just saw him there on the BBC reviewing half a dozen films right accross the genres and he did it in a pretty straight forward and accessible manner, and in no manner up himself at all .

Ive a feeling someone got a better seat in a restaurant recently or something . Cant think of any other reason for the massive bee thats suddenly got up Selfs bumhole.


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## Voley (Oct 20, 2013)

I got about halfway through that article and gave up. Critics criticising critics seems a fairly futile endeavour really.


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## laptop (Oct 20, 2013)

Anyway...

I don't think I trust Self's reading of McLuhan. He's wielding the name to make his point. I'd be quite surprised if I went back and re-read it and found it'd transformed itself to say what Self says it says.

It's a crap piece of writing* because it doesn't stand alone: you have to have read Kermode's book to understand what Self's on about.

I'm sure Self would argue, given this challenge, that this makes it an _example of its own argument_: that there are no _finished works_ any more, there is no authorship, just a flux of re-twittering. Or that this is how it'll be when we Gutenberg minds die out.

I recall McLuhan acknowledging that new media actually _added to_ the forms of discourse and did not in fact replace any in its entirety.

Maybe Self's just had a disappointing royalty statement for the _finished works_ that he produces. * Many of which I quite enjoy.


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## Casually Red (Oct 20, 2013)

weltweit said:


> My impression of Will Self, reinforced whenever I read anything from him, usually by accident as I try to avoid him, and his occasional appearances for example on Question Time, reinforce my belief that he sees himself as some kind of superior being. This is reinforced by his use of quaint, irregular, unusual and plain abnormal language, which he seems to use again to reinforce the idea that he is above the rest of us plebs.
> 
> Kermode is the same. Only when he is reviewing films, mainly.
> 
> They deserve each other. Ironic therefore that Self has attacked Kermode.



id agree with you on self but definitely not kermode. In fact selfs article refers to kermodes approach as _blokey_, which would suggest the exact opposite . I used to think this stuff about kermode myself until i actually sat and listened to him a few times and realised it was just my own prejudice making me think that . Ive honestly never seen anything hes actually written or said that was in any way pretentious. Although some of the stuff his job is to review certainly is . Not Kermodes fault though .

I generally despise telly people but kermode managed to overturn my opinion, which is rare . So i think the criticisms are a little unfair .


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## butchersapron (Oct 20, 2013)

You've just endorsed tony gosling - an anti-Semitic clown. MARK will be happy.


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## laptop (Oct 20, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> You've just endorsed tony gosling - an anti-Semitic clown. MARK will be happy.



Is this in the right thread?


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## butchersapron (Oct 20, 2013)

laptop said:


> Is this in the right thread?


Gosling.


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## laptop (Oct 20, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Gosling.



Cunt's got an RT gig? Fuck.

Back to Self...


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## white rabbit (Oct 20, 2013)

Casually Red said:


> i really cant understand what people have against Kermode.


I don't have much against him, but his "I'm right and you're wrong" attitude gets on my wick. His "other opinions are available" refrain is just an example of what Self rightly detects as the need to correct an innate arrogance and isn't sincere. Anyone who thinks that The Comsat Angels are a better band than Joy Division clearly has way too much self-belief. Of course it's his job to have an opinion and a strongly held opinion is more compelling than one that is vacillating or uncertain. And I don't think he'd be able to go into his rants without a powerful sense of where he stands. I'd like that to be tempered a bit though perhaps it's asking too much.

And his comedy impersonations are horrible, especially Gwyneth Paltrow.


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## Casually Red (Oct 20, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> You've just endorsed tony gosling - an anti-Semitic clown. MARK will be happy.



your in the wrong thread you fuckwit, happens when you follow people around the board


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## butchersapron (Oct 20, 2013)

Casually Red said:


> your in the wrong thread you fuckwit, happens when you follow people around the board


Nope. I like this reverse following idea as well. If you were here first then i turn up and talk shit then who is following who around. Sass has an app as well, if you put someone on ignore they can't see your posts.


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## Casually Red (Oct 20, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Gosling.



wrong thread


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## butchersapron (Oct 20, 2013)

Casually Red said:


> wrong thread


Shhh.


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## Casually Red (Oct 20, 2013)

white rabbit said:


> I don't have much against him, but his "I'm right and you're wrong" attitude gets on my wick. His "other opinions are available" refrain is just an example of what Self rightly detects as the need to correct an innate arrogance and isn't sincere. Anyone who thinks that The Comsat Angels are a better band than Joy Division clearly has way too much self-belief. Of course it's his job to have an opinion and a strongly held opinion is more compelling than one that is vacillating or uncertain. And I don't think he'd be able to go into his rants without a powerful sense of where he stands. I'd like that to be tempered a bit though perhaps it's asking too much.
> 
> And his comedy impersonations are horrible, especially Gwyneth Paltrow.



well he was reviewing some kids film he didnt like about a snail earlier, and the bbc guy made a quip about slug pellets, and kermode went _aaaarrgggh..wish id though of that _, and then the BBC guy said.._dont worry, you will..._and he seemed to take that in good heart . Didnt appear up himself at all there.


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## Casually Red (Oct 20, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Shhh.



shhhhtalking ?


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## butchersapron (Oct 20, 2013)

Casually Red said:


> shhhhtalking ?


Yes, being on a thread well before you is stalking. Listen to your madness.


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## white rabbit (Oct 20, 2013)

Casually Red said:


> well he was reviewing some kids film he didnt like about a snail earlier, and the bbc guy made a quip about slug pellets, and kermode went _aaaarrgggh..wish id though of that _, and then the BBC guy said.._dont worry, you will..._and he seemed to take that in good heart . Didnt appear up himself at all there.


He'd have been pleased at the Oscar Wilde reference.


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## weltweit (Oct 20, 2013)

Casually Red said:


> id agree with you on self but definitely not kermode. In fact selfs article refers to kermodes approach as _blokey_, which would suggest the exact opposite . I used to think this stuff about kermode myself until i actually sat and listened to him a few times and realised it was just my own prejudice making me think that . Ive honestly never seen anything hes actually written or said that was in any way pretentious. Although some of the stuff his job is to review certainly is . Not Kermodes fault though .
> 
> I generally despise telly people but kermode managed to overturn my opinion, which is rare . So i think the criticisms are a little unfair .


 
You could well be right. I am no longer exposed much to either of them but in total my exposure to Kermode has been significantly the lowest.


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## youngian (Oct 20, 2013)

white rabbit said:


> And his comedy impersonations are horrible, especially Gwyneth Paltrow.



Like Andrew Neil's jokes they are sort of supposed be although I like his Liam Neeson from Taken.


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## butchersapron (Oct 20, 2013)

weltweit said:


> You could well be right. I am no longer exposed much to either of them but in total my exposure to Kermode has been significantly the lowest.


So you think kermode lords it over you because you never see or read anything that he does. You are not kidding when you say that you're really really thivk are you?


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## white rabbit (Oct 20, 2013)

youngian said:


> Like Andrew Neil's jokes they are sort of supposed be although I like his Liam Neeson from Taken.


To an extent, but I have no idea what _mewewmemewwemewmem_ is supposed to be.


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## youngian (Oct 20, 2013)

Isn't that Rene Zellweger?


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## weltweit (Oct 20, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> So you think kermode lords it over you because you never see or read anything that he does. You are not kidding when you say that you're really really thivk are you?


You are really very boring butchersapron. Very boring.


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## Casually Red (Oct 20, 2013)

thats why i took his advice and put him on ignore, the obsessive fuck


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## butchersapron (Oct 20, 2013)

Casually Red said:


> thats why i took his advice and put him on ignore, the obsessive fuck


I didn't advise anything of the sort you liar. I actively encourage people like you to not run away, to not be defeated. But even in defeat you seem to want to lie.


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## barney_pig (Oct 20, 2013)

I do recommend people to listen to marks rant against sexin the city 2, it is class.


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## Belushi (Oct 20, 2013)

barney_pig said:


> I do recommend people to listen to marks rant against sexin the city 2, it is class.


 
It is the best review he has ever done tbf


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## Stigmata (Oct 20, 2013)

That and every Danny Dyer film he's reviewed, ever. The two despise each other


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## emanymton (Oct 20, 2013)

Stigmata said:


> That and every Danny Dyer film he's reviewed, ever. The two despise each other


I thought everyone despised Danny Dyer?


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## DotCommunist (Oct 20, 2013)

Can't wait till he takes over the Queen Vic on eastenders. It'll be amazing.


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## maomao (Oct 20, 2013)

barney_pig said:


> I do recommend people to listen to marks rant against sexin the city 2, it is class.


Might watch that later. My wife forced me to go and it was without a doubt the worst film I ever saw in my life.


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## DotCommunist (Oct 20, 2013)

maomao said:


> Might watch that later. My wife forced me to go and it was without a doubt the worst film I ever saw in my life.




this is good


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## TheHoodedClaw (Oct 20, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> this is good




Ha, that's ace. The bit with the dictionary


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## weltweit (Oct 20, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> this is good



Well I watched it, he wasn't as loathsome as I recall, perhaps he has mellowed somewhat, after all it must have been a reality check / slap across the chops to be beaten to film2012 (whatever) by Claudia Winkelman!!


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## butchersapron (Oct 20, 2013)

You make me want to not live


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## Frances Lengel (Oct 20, 2013)

white rabbit said:


> This it the Noel Gallagher who said reading books is a waste of time.



It is if Will Self wrote them.


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## Voley (Oct 20, 2013)

Belushi said:


> It is the best review he has ever done tbf


He said 'Pain and Gain' was 'like swimming in a river of effluent' recently.


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## butchersapron (Oct 20, 2013)

Which is why it's so good.


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## Voley (Oct 20, 2013)

I thought you might have something to say about that.


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## Spanky Longhorn (Oct 20, 2013)

Kermode used to buy his cds and dvds in Southampton HMV where I remember jostling elbows with him when trying to grab the one copy of a new Korean import a live album by Chubby Checker. 

Generally when Kermode loves a film I know that it is one I will never ever want to watch. Ever. But, his reviews are very listenable or readable and I do enjoy his takedowns of proper shit. 

Self on the otherhand is a pompous overpleased prick. He is the "literary" version of King Robb or whatever his name is on GoT.


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## maomao (Oct 20, 2013)

Stigmata said:


> I like Kermode. We use the same multiplex (Vue Eastleigh) and I usually agree with his reviews.



That's quite brilliant actually.


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## Spanky Longhorn (Oct 20, 2013)

maomao said:


> That's quite brilliant actually.



yes having watched it I respect him even more and despise Self even more


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## Casually Red (Oct 20, 2013)

yaaayyy, kermode wins thread


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## Spanky Longhorn (Oct 20, 2013)

or Colonel Kermoddi as you call him


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## Stigmata (Oct 20, 2013)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> Self on the otherhand is a pompous overpleased prick. He is the "literary" version of King Robb or whatever his name is on GoT.



What a fantastically bizarre analogy. You should be a critic


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## Casually Red (Oct 20, 2013)

wtf are you on about chief


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## Sweet FA (Oct 20, 2013)

Kermode is knowledgeable and writes well. Self has been good and might be again but this is pointless and a bit embarrassing.


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## Casually Red (Oct 20, 2013)

Sweet FA said:


> Kermode is knowledgeable and writes well. Self has been good and might be again but this is pointless and a bit embarrassing.



i liked self on Grumpy Old Men. Never read his stuff though . Until i read this i had no reason to think him twattish .


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## Spanky Longhorn (Oct 20, 2013)

Stigmata said:


> What a fantastically bizarre analogy. You should be a critic


thanks Will


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## butchersapron (Oct 20, 2013)

Stigmata said:


> What a fantastically bizarre analogy. You should be a critic


The bloke who was the voice of darf vader and now emnploywd by banksys to make him sound a bit bristolian?


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## Reno (Oct 20, 2013)

Sweet FA said:


> Kermode is knowledgeable and writes well. Self has been good and might be again but this is pointless and a bit embarrassing.



Kermode constantly wants to let us know that he is all knowledgeable about film, but his knowledge is actually rather limited and he constantly embarrasses himself on his radio show with dumb gaffes. To anybody who genuinely knows their stuff about film, he is a lightweight. He is of the "he who shouts the loudest" school of criticism, the type which makes it sound like criticism is a contest where a hyperventilating sense of passion seeks to convince us of just how right he is. But there is little depth to what he has to say. If people stopped for a moment to unthinkingly take sides for the popular choice and actually read and try to understand what Self says in the article, he is actually making some good points. And Self can write circles around Kermode, who may well be an affable chap, but who isn't much of a critic.


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## butchersapron (Oct 21, 2013)

Reno said:


> Kermode constantly wants to let us know that he is all knowledgeable about film, but his knowledge is actually rather limited and he constantly embarrasses himself on his radio show with dumb gaffes. To anybody who genuinely knows their stuff about film, he is a lightweight. He is of the "he who shouts the loudest" school of criticism, the type which makes it sound like criticism is a contest where a hyperventilating sense of passion seeks to convince us of just how right he is. But there is little depth to what he has to say. If people stopped for a moment to unthinkingly take sides for the popular choice and actually read and try to understand what Self says in the article, he is actually making some good points. And Self can write circles around Kermode, who may well be an affable chap, but who isn't much of a critic.


Which, given self's laboured and used too often  used point was critics are now in post Protestant world , means he has to provide content - individually.  He's an examplar of how the modern world only appears to be individual content providers fighting each other. The the rest of us. Who cleans your motorway service stations whilst you're not touching your kid there will?


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## Spanky Longhorn (Oct 21, 2013)

People don't want depth, and I'm with them. We want an entertainingly written example of why we should or shouldn't watch something. Kermode provides that.


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## butchersapron (Oct 21, 2013)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> People don't want depth, and I'm with them. We want an entertainingly written example of why we should or shouldn't watch something. Kermode provides that.


People want all different sorts of things me old china. In terms of large release films he will tell you what is what, why you may like it and why you may not. He'll only watch 45 minutes of most of them.


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## Stigmata (Oct 21, 2013)

Self was alright on Shooting Stars, but he was the least entertaining of the Team A captains


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## xenon (Oct 21, 2013)

What is point Self? Seriously, would you listen to him for an hour? And really Kurmode, of all peple to have a pop at. Will Self, how thi pencil is bluntenned.


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## white rabbit (Oct 21, 2013)

There's a lot of Self-bashing going on, but he does make an interesting point in opposition to Kermode.


> when it comes to the impact of new media on the human consciousness – both individual and collective – content is an irrelevance; we have to look not at what is on the screen, but how the screen is used.


What he calls the Gutenberg mind, the way of thinking that sees the transaction in terms of author and reader, or artist and audience, is becoming obsolete. For instance, all of us here on u75 are author and audience. And that sort of back and forth interaction is starting to become more and more the way things are done. The content of whatever medium it is is of interest, of course, but that isn't what is changing fundamentally and that is where I think he is saying the focus belongs.


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## butchersapron (Oct 21, 2013)

There is no transaction. Let's get that right.


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## white rabbit (Oct 21, 2013)

In the sense that the author offers and the reader receives.


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## butchersapron (Oct 21, 2013)

What century you living in?


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## DotCommunist (Oct 21, 2013)

white rabbit said:


> There's a lot of Self-bashing going on



lol


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## white rabbit (Oct 21, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> What century you living in?


That's the point. The transaction isn't so limited now.


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## butchersapron (Oct 21, 2013)

white rabbit said:


> There's a lot of Self-bashing going on, but he does make an interesting point in opposition to Kermode.
> 
> What he calls the Gutenberg mind, the way of thinking that sees the transaction in terms of author and reader, or artist and audience, is becoming obsolete. For instance, all of us here on u75 are author and audience. And that sort of back and forth interaction is starting to become more and more the way things are done. The content of whatever medium it is is of interest, of course, but that isn't what is changing fundamentally and that is where I think he is saying the focus belongs.


He's just saying critics write (the actual argument is pepper thin) and he doesn't like that. Maybe he wrote a better piece some where esle.


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## butchersapron (Oct 21, 2013)

white rabbit said:


> That's the point. The transaction isn't so limited now.


It's not the point. The point is that critics role is over.It's not is it?


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## butchersapron (Oct 21, 2013)

white rabbit said:


> That's the point. The transaction isn't so limited now.


Oh god, help me an author is after me


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## butchersapron (Oct 21, 2013)

What am i doing this time character or plot? What's the transaction?


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## white rabbit (Oct 21, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> It's not the point. The point is that critics role is over.It's not is it?


Did he say that? The role of critic as an establishment figure who operates as a sort of gatekeeper, interpreting and contextualising is under threat. That's what I took him to mean anyway. In a more nebulous environment that role is probably going to change.


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## white rabbit (Oct 21, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> What am i doing this time character or plot? What's the transaction?


Both.


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## RaverDrew (Oct 21, 2013)

I've said it before and I'll say it again... Kermode reminds me too much of that pompous arse Dubversion or El Jefe as he calls himself... both self-important ego tripping wankers... ignore anyone's else opinions and just call them ignorant wankers, whatever their opinion... and he's such a tosser that he'll actually avoid the issue if you pull him up on it... he's the original hipster "wacky" CUNT (a favourite derogatory word of his btw, for those who he hates and bullies <just for context>... and those who don't quite get his "irony") <shakes fist in a sideways manner> 

Cheesypoof

He's a person that shouldnt be around near a computer... for his own good !!!


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## chasbo zelena (Oct 21, 2013)

Ah, he's all that, but he's okay.


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## RaverDrew (Oct 21, 2013)

tbf he's a sound fella irl... but the internet is not good for him and his opinions... <looks at self>


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## chasbo zelena (Oct 21, 2013)




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## gabi (Oct 21, 2013)

Dub was/is/could be a decent chap in real life, if you got him on a good day. much like all of us.

lets face it, you're only comparing them coz of the haircuts


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## RaverDrew (Oct 21, 2013)

no, it's cos of the ironic/ignorant snobbery mainly


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## DotCommunist (Oct 21, 2013)

he's not been here for over two year m8, time to let go


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## maomao (Oct 21, 2013)

gabi said:


> Dub was/is/could be a decent chap in real life, if you got him on a good day. much like all of us.
> 
> lets face it, you're only comparing them coz of the haircuts


Being a nice fellow on the internet is never an excuse for being a cunt in real life so I don't know why the reverse works.


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## gabi (Oct 21, 2013)

i only recall dub being a bit of a cunt in real life once in my encounters around brixton.. he was certainly one of the more interesting posters on here tho, shame he bailed. urban needs a few more bastards..


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## maomao (Oct 21, 2013)

gabi said:


> i only recall dub being a bit of a cunt in real life once in my encounters around brixton.. he was certainly one of the more interesting posters on here tho, shame he bailed. urban needs a few more bastards..


Only time I ever met him he was very nice indeed.


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## Voley (Oct 21, 2013)

That was bizarre, Drew.


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## Orang Utan (Oct 21, 2013)

What a weird outburst


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## redsquirrel (Oct 21, 2013)

RaverDrew said:


> I've said it before and I'll say it again... Kermode reminds me too much of that pompous arse Dubversion or El Jefe as he calls himself... both self-important ego tripping wankers... ignore anyone's else opinions and just call them ignorant wankers, whatever their opinion... and he's such a tosser that he'll actually avoid the issue if you pull him up on it... he's the original hipster "wacky" CUNT (a favourite derogatory word of his btw, for those who he hates and bullies <just for context>... and those who don't quite get his "irony") <shakes fist in a sideways manner>


Well that's a load of rubbish, as Barney pointed out, Kermode does engage with his audience and he is willing to listen to other's view and modify his opinions. He's not my favourite film critic but your and others criticisms of him are just nonsense.


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## Orang Utan (Oct 21, 2013)

redsquirrel said:


> Well that's a load of rubbish, as Barney pointed out, Kermode does engage with his audience and he is willing to listen to other's view and modify his opinions. He's not my favourite film critic but your and others criticisms of him are just nonsense.


He's not even criticising Kermode. He is criticizing someone who last posted here years ago and is not here to defend himself.
He really needs to shut his head.


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## killer b (Oct 21, 2013)

what the fuck?


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## gabi (Oct 21, 2013)

give him a break


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## killer b (Oct 21, 2013)

who?


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## gabi (Oct 21, 2013)

sorry, i was responding to orang utan having a pop at drew. anyone who's met drew knows hes an excellent sort. dont know the personal history there but whatever.


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## killer b (Oct 21, 2013)

Fuck that. He's a raging bellend, he doesn't deserve a break.


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## gabi (Oct 21, 2013)

well, whatever. hes definitely not a raging bellend, maybe just was on a bender last night. no idea.


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## killer b (Oct 21, 2013)

tbf it looks like he was. doesn't stop him being a prick though.


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## Sweet FA (Oct 21, 2013)

RaverDrew said:


> I've said it before and I'll say it again... Kermode reminds me too much of that pompous arse Dubversion or El Jefe as he calls himself... both self-important ego tripping wankers... ignore anyone's else opinions and just call them ignorant wankers, whatever their opinion... and he's such a tosser that he'll actually avoid the issue if you pull him up on it... he's the original hipster "wacky" CUNT (a favourite derogatory word of his btw, for those who he hates and bullies <just for context>... and those who don't quite get his "irony") <shakes fist in a sideways manner>
> 
> Cheesypoof
> 
> He's a person that shouldnt be around near a computer... for his own good !!!


Wow. You fucking weirdo drew. Someone's haircut reminded you of someone who wound you up _2 years ago _so you give it all that .

I didn't/don't agree with everything he says but El Jefe at least speaks from a position of knowledge; he's listened to/read/watched whatever it is he's pontificating about (often at length with swearing and abuse thrown in). Like Blagsta, sihhi, copliker and others who left because of people being pricks, dubjefeversion's a loss to urban.

How's your head this morning, you bellend?


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## RaverDrew (Oct 21, 2013)

Sweet FA said:


> Wow. You fucking weirdo drew. Someone's haircut reminded you of someone who wound you up _2 years ago _so you give it all that .
> 
> I didn't/don't agree with everything he says but El Jefe at least speaks from a position of knowledge; he's listened to/read/watched whatever it is he's pontificating about (often at length with swearing and abuse thrown in). Like Blagsta, sihhi, copliker and others who left because of people being pricks, dubjefeversion's a loss to urban.
> 
> How's your head this morning, you bellend?



I don't even know you, so fuck off.

Kermode's sneery tone is very similar to that of that Dubversiion wanker, there are many many examples on this very site to prove it too just take one look at the music forums  It's really not difficult...

He quite clearly have modelled his whole style verbally, and physically on the prick, so it's legitimate comment.


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## RaverDrew (Oct 21, 2013)

EVERY DAY 





killer b said:


> Fuck that. He's a raging bellend, he doesn't deserve a break.



You're like a pale imitation of your snide role model trying the put-downs without even the panache to pull it off...so if I were you, I'd just stfu before this bellend tears you new one. Apart from sleep, you seem to post wanky shit on urban 24/7 and if I were you I'd step away from the internet altogether you sad sad attention and sympathy seeking pisshead. You're like a shit dub, but without the tintin quiff.


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## killer b (Oct 21, 2013)

Tear away sweetheart. x


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## Sweet FA (Oct 21, 2013)

Aw little dwewy, did somebody upset you?  Do the drugs not work anymore? Best find something else to do with your life eh. YEAH BASS, DRUGS! 

Grow up you sad prick.


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## gabi (Oct 21, 2013)

Christ... it comes to something when *im* the calmest motherfucker on a thread  chill the fuck out people.


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## RaverDrew (Oct 21, 2013)

Sweet FA said:


> Aw little dwewy, did somebody upset you?  Do the drugs not work anymore? Best find something else to do with your life eh. YEAH BASS, DRUGS!
> 
> Grow up you sad prick.



I'm doing fine with my life thanks... drugs ??? Hell yeah, bring it on... it's a lot more entertaining than the shit this great forum has become, no doubt thanks to boring tossers like yourself,


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## Stigmata (Oct 21, 2013)

So... that Will Self eh?


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## butchersapron (Oct 21, 2013)

Dubversion is /was great.


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## butchersapron (Oct 21, 2013)

Just before we move on. he was great because he had an engaged commitment with the stuff he was interested in and the respect wit and learn about stuff he didn't. That'as how you make cultural stuff live rather than curating it. Drew bemoans this end of the forums, and if he's got a point it's precisely because dub left.


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## Jeff Robinson (Oct 21, 2013)

barney_pig said:


> Kermode engages with these and even changes his mind when faced with a cogent argument.


 
I've listened to the podcast every week for about two years now and I can't say that I've _ever_ heard him change his mind about a film. The closest I've heard is stuff along the lines saying that a contrary argument is well argued  but ultimately he still doesn't agree with it.


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## butchersapron (Oct 21, 2013)

Still, the discussion happens, With self you're just handed the tablet.


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## butchersapron (Oct 21, 2013)

No one 'changes their mind' about films either - you just put it into some wider context, pick up on stuff you were unaware of etc God imagine if people did change their mind about films on demand because someone disagreed with them rather than ongoing interrogation of the film and your various  reactions. We would envy the dead.


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## redsquirrel (Oct 21, 2013)

Sweet FA said:


> Aw little dwewy, did somebody upset you?  Do the drugs not work anymore? Best find something else to do with your life eh. YEAH BASS, DRUGS!
> 
> Grow up you sad prick.


Cut it out, RaverDrew might have been a dick but this type of response is not on and is only going to throw fuel on the fire.


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## redsquirrel (Oct 21, 2013)

Jeff Robinson said:


> I've listened to the podcast every week for about two years now and I can't say that I've _ever_ heard him change his mind about a film. The closest I've heard is stuff along the lines saying that a contrary argument is well argued  but ultimately he still doesn't agree with it.


He changed his mind over Keira Knightly and Neil Young and those are just of the top of my head.

EDIT: maybe Chaplin too IIRC


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## Jeff Robinson (Oct 21, 2013)

redsquirrel said:


> He changed his mind over Keira Knightly and Neil Young and those are just of the top of my head.
> 
> EDIT: maybe Chaplin too IIRC


 
What movie has he disliked or liked then heard contrary opinions, rewatched and changed his mind? The only film I've heard him say he revised his opinion on is Spielberg's AI, and it was his wife that won him over on that. In the last two years I've listened to his show, I've never once heard him revise his opinion on a film he's seen in light of a listener's insights. Not a problem for me at all btw.


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## redsquirrel (Oct 21, 2013)

Nice moving of the goalposts there.
I can't off the top of my head think of an example of a


Jeff Robinson said:


> movie [that] has he disliked or liked then heard contrary opinions, rewatched and changed his mind?


But I remember acknowledging other peoples opinions for example on the ending of _Bridge to Terabithia_.


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## Jeff Robinson (Oct 21, 2013)

redsquirrel said:


> Nice moving of the goalposts there.
> I can't off the top of my head think of an example of a
> 
> But I remember acknowledging other peoples opinions for example on the ending of _Bridge to Terabithia_.


 
Yeah, I already said he acknowledges other peoples' opinions, I'm yet to hear him modify his own in response to them however.


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## redsquirrel (Oct 21, 2013)

Well you yourself mentioned AI and I gave you two other examples (not of films admittedly) where he has revised his opinion.


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## Jeff Robinson (Oct 21, 2013)

redsquirrel said:


> Well you yourself mentioned AI and I gave you two other examples (not of films admittedly) where he has revised his opinion.


 
I was responding to Barny Pig's post in which he said Kermode had changed his opinion about films in response to 'listeners letters and emails'. Like I said, as an avid listener for the past two years, I've never heard this happen.


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