# Visiting San francisco has made me re-evaluate what I think about america



## fractionMan (Jul 11, 2007)

Great beer, great food, great people, great weather, great architecture, great times.

Just great really.

If I wasn't a dad I'd move there tomorrow.


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## Belushi (Jul 11, 2007)

I've never been to the state but I've never met an American I disliked.


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## bluestreak (Jul 11, 2007)

fM, that was exactly my thing when i went to seattle.  i was never especially anti-american except in the ordinary everyday hating-the-government-and-corporations way, but even then i discovered that so many of the cliches aren't true.  especially the one about american beer!


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## gabi (Jul 11, 2007)

Sf is nice, but if u're a drinker though - always find it severely limited bar-wise. Nice if you're a stoner though. I still prefer NY tho.


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## marty21 (Jul 11, 2007)

i lived there for a year  86/7, met some lovely americans, almost married one
  but it was at college - at a college town, so i wasn't dealing with the real america tbh


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## gabi (Jul 11, 2007)

Should also point out that the number of homeless people in SF is quite staggering.. I've travelled all over the US and the ratio is incomparable to any other city ive visited or so it seems.

whats all that about then? someone once told me its due to SF being a drop-off point for the US military or something, these guys are all ex-soliders fallen on bad times.. any truth in that?


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## twistedAM (Jul 11, 2007)

bluestreak said:
			
		

> fM, that was exactly my thing when i went to seattle.  i was never especially anti-american except in the ordinary everyday hating-the-government-and-corporations way, but even then i discovered that so many of the cliches aren't true.  especially the one about american beer!



Pity yoou didn't make it down  to Portland, OR - great city and better for music than Seattle

San Fran, New York and Montgomery, Al (obviously) are the only cities in America I've taken a dislike to. 

Go Chicago!!!


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## dada (Jul 11, 2007)

fractionMan said:
			
		

> Great beer, great food, great people, great weather, great architecture, great times.
> 
> Just great really.
> 
> If I wasn't a dad I'd move there tomorrow.



oh i hear you.
i liked it there too.
loved the landscape, going up and down the hill, or a walk by the coast.
not to mention how veggie friendly it is overthere.

but SF does smell, doesn't it?
every street corner lives at least one homeless guy who pisses on the sidewalk.




			
				gabi said:
			
		

> Sf is nice, but if u're a drinker though - always find it severely limited bar-wise. Nice if you're a stoner though. I still prefer NY tho.



is that so?
cos i thought there were quite a lot of nice quirky pubs by mission.


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## twistedAM (Jul 11, 2007)

gabi said:
			
		

> Should also point out that the number of homeless people in SF is quite staggering.. I've travelled all over the US and the ratio is incomparable to any other city ive visited or so it seems.
> 
> whats all that about then? someone once told me its due to SF being a drop-off point for the US military or something, these guys are all ex-soliders fallen on bad times.. any truth in that?



Were you in the Tenderloin perchance?? That place is an eye-opener and right bang in the centre.


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## gabi (Jul 11, 2007)

twisted said:
			
		

> Were you in the Tenderloin perchance?? That place is an eye-opener and right bang in the centre.



Yeh that little area is crazy eh. Coming from brixton it wasn't quite such a shock but i remember thinking what a middle-class family visiting from somehwere like Iowa would make of it if they went a street or two off the beaten path..


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## fractionMan (Jul 11, 2007)

gabi said:
			
		

> Should also point out that the number of homeless people in SF is quite staggering.. I've travelled all over the US and the ratio is incomparable to any other city ive visited or so it seems.



I'd agree with that.  I heard it was because they closed down all the state funded mental hospitals and kicked them out onto the street.

The one thing that does remain true though is the total lack of socialised healthcare.  There's a debate going on in some states (including CA) whether or not it should be introduced.  I managed to bring a couple of people round to the 'yes' camp while I was there and I'm pretty sure Micheal Moore will turn a few more with his rosy picture of the NHS.  The NHS really _is_ rosy compared to what they've got.  People over here don't realise how fortunate we are to have it in place.


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## twistedAM (Jul 11, 2007)

gabi said:
			
		

> Yeh that little area is crazy eh. Coming from brixton it wasn't quite such a shock but i remember thinking what a middle-class family visiting from somehwere like Iowa would make of it if they went a street or two off the beaten path..



Oh even Brixton on the hottest summer's day with White Ace on promotion doesn't compare.
Thing is Brixton is a suburb really or at least it's miles from the city centre, the Tenderloin isn't.
Had a few shocks like that in America notably Cincinnati where you can go one block away and be stunned with total poverty.


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## fractionMan (Jul 11, 2007)

twisted said:
			
		

> Oh even Brixton on the hottest summer's day with White Ace on promotion doesn't compare.
> Thing is Brixton is a suburb really or at least it's miles from the city centre, the Tenderloin isn't.
> Had a few shocks like that in America notably Cincinnati where you can go one block away and be stunned with total poverty.


It's mental how close these things can be.  I stayed a couple of blocks away from there in a really fancy (work sponsored) hotel and my SF based friend warned me off the place.


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## marty21 (Jul 11, 2007)

i didn't make it to san fransisco when i lived in the states - would have loved to have gone - we headed for mexico as we were a bit skint 

champaign-urbana - illinois was my home for most fo that year


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## untethered (Jul 11, 2007)

marty21 said:
			
		

> champaign-urbana - illinois was my home for most fo that year



Off topic, but why is UIUC not called the University of Illinois at Champaign-Urbana?


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## marty21 (Jul 11, 2007)

untethered said:
			
		

> Off topic, but why is UIUC not called the University of Illinois at Champaign-Urbana?



no sure tbh, it was a campus university of the university of illinois, i think there were other colleges in chicago and southern illinois - carbondale i think, and possibly one in springfield, i was there in 86/7 so it's a long long time ago


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## Stanley Edwards (Jul 11, 2007)

gabi said:
			
		

> Should also point out that the number of homeless people in SF is quite staggering.. I've travelled all over the US and the ratio is incomparable to any other city ive visited or so it seems.
> 
> whats all that about then? someone once told me its due to SF being a drop-off point for the US military or something, these guys are all ex-soliders fallen on bad times.. any truth in that?



I'd guess it's about the very mild winter climate and the very healthy tourist market.


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## gabi (Jul 11, 2007)

eh? san francisco's freezing.. by californian standards anyway..


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Jul 11, 2007)

fractionMan said:
			
		

> Great beer, great food, great people, great weather, great architecture, great times.
> 
> Just great really.
> 
> If I wasn't a dad I'd move there tomorrow.



Wow, fraction man in 'brit's opinion of US influenced by actual visit to that country' shocker...


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Jul 11, 2007)

gabi said:
			
		

> Should also point out that the number of homeless people in SF is quite staggering.. I've travelled all over the US and the ratio is incomparable to any other city ive visited or so it seems.



Thats because it's easier to be a homeless person in a warm city with a left-leaning govt.


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## London_Calling (Jul 11, 2007)

It's distinct from every other town in that country I've ever been to - a really diff culture. So's NYC of course, but in very diff ways.


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Jul 11, 2007)

London_Calling said:
			
		

> It's distinct from every other town in that country I've ever been to - a really diff culture. So's NYC of course, but in very diff ways.



You should check out Boston, Portland, Seattle, etc.


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## Stanley Edwards (Jul 11, 2007)

gabi said:
			
		

> eh? san francisco's freezing.. by californian standards anyway..



No it's not. Winters may be very wet, but certainly not cold/freezing. The tourist thing - plenty of people with spare cash to give. The liberal attitudes.


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Jul 11, 2007)

Stanley Edwards said:
			
		

> No it's not. Winters may be very wet, but certainly not cold/freezing. The tourist thing - plenty of people with spare cash to give. The liberal attitudes.



It can be quite cold in the city in Jan, Feb, but not killing cold, like Chicago etc.


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## phildwyer (Jul 11, 2007)

gabi said:
			
		

> Yeh that little area is crazy eh. Coming from brixton it wasn't quite such a shock



Ahem, the Tenderloin is just a teensy bit worse than Brixton methinks.

Anyway it's not just San Francisco--the USA is far and away the best country in the world.  New York, Chicago, Miami, New Orleans, Los Angeles....


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## dada (Jul 11, 2007)

Johnny Canuck2 said:
			
		

> It can be quite cold in the city in Jan, Feb, but not killing cold, like Chicago etc.



i was surprised how cold SF could get.
and i was there 2 weeks ago.
it was 'freezing' with amazingly strong wind.


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## marty21 (Jul 11, 2007)

illinois in the depth of winter is fucking freezing, i doubt san fran gets quite as cold


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Jul 11, 2007)

dada said:
			
		

> i was surprised how cold SF could get.
> and i was there 2 weeks ago.
> it was 'freezing' with amazingly strong wind.



San Fran is like here; in the winter, it doesn't snow much, but with the high humidity, the cold seems to penetrate your very bones. I've been cold more times here than I was back on the prairies when it was minus 30, but where people were properly prepared for the cold.


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## fractionMan (Jul 12, 2007)

Johnny Canuck2 said:
			
		

> Wow, fraction man in 'brit's opinion of US influenced by actual visit to that country' shocker...


I've been there twice, but last time was alabama...


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Jul 12, 2007)

fractionMan said:
			
		

> I've been there twice, but last time was alabama...



Well, no shit then!


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## D (Jul 12, 2007)

Ah, the Tenderloin.

My home for about four years.

Not much to say about it at the moment.  This is what I had to say on my final night as a resident of San Francisco:

***
Last night before I went to sleep I saw something new.

I'd taken down the curtains and was staring, upside down, at the almost full moon. There was a beautiful, mysterious ring around the moon, a radiating lunar shadow in the dark sky above O'Farrell Street.

I looked into my neighbors' windows for the last time. I saw the way the really large building across the street, the one with the Korean restaurant, appears infinitely huge when viewed upside down.

I will never see that again, no matter how many times I visit San Francisco or even if I come back to live here one day.

I will never hear the contribution of my own quiet breathing to the soundscape - sometimes mellifluous, sometimes so cacophonous that earplugs can't guarantee a good night's sleep - of San Francisco ever again from that exact spot.

***

One of the reasons that SF's homeless population has been so large, historically, is that, for a long time, the county of SF gave a big chunk of the homeless population *all* their benefits in cash, rather than, say, a small cash stipend and then vouchers for redeeming other services (like shelter or food).

When Mayor Gavin Newsom was elected, he ran on a platform of substantially reducing cash welfare benefits for homeless people.  Quoting the SF Chronicle:

"Care Not Cash began in May 2004, cutting the welfare checks to homeless people from a high of $410 a month to $59 a month, giving them either a shelter bed or a permanent room instead. The number of homeless people on welfare since then has dropped 72 percent, from 2,497 to 693 today.

Newsom said he believes the new statistics show that his goal of ending chronic homelessness in San Francisco by 2014 -- as called for in his recently adopted 10-Year Plan to Abolish Chronic Homelessness -- is not unreasonable. "

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2005/02/15/MNGTKBB73I1.DTL

http://www.sfgov.org/site/mayor_page.asp?id=25978 (Newsom's 10 year plan)

Other reasons - SF has always been a city welcoming of outcasts, so there's inevitably been a sizeable population of homeless youth, many of them also queer and/or trans, many people with significant mental health and drug problems...in that respect, arguably not that different from other cities and their substantial homeless populations; but, in this case, it's almost part of the history/mythology of the city itself.

There's a whole collection of articles about homelessness in the Chronicle, including this rather intriguing map:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2003/12/03/MNTERRITORIES.DTL

http://www.sfgate.com/homeless/


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## LDR (Jul 12, 2007)

fractionMan said:
			
		

> Great beer, great food, great people, great weather, great architecture, great times.
> 
> Just great really.
> 
> If I wasn't a dad I'd move there tomorrow.


That's exactly had I feel about New York.  I wasn't that keen on the States until I went there.


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## kalidarkone (Jul 12, 2007)

fractionMan said:
			
		

> Great beer, great food, great people, great weather, great architecture, great times.
> 
> Just great really.
> 
> If I wasn't a dad I'd move there tomorrow.




I went almost 15 years ago and hmmm I was not that impressed but then I just found out I was up the duff with the darkone so I was not feeling too good and was probably ultra sensitive.

It did open my eyes to how unworldly a lot of Americans seem to be. This guy working in a shoe shop said to me 'so there are black men in England?'  But then they dont really get news outside the states.
 And I'd never been hit on so much ever!! Hmmm maybe a reason to return 

The division between classes seemed really huge, I was interested in possibly working over there at some stage possibly with in the homeless field but none of the people I stayed with knew anything about the housing projects or the welfare system, which I found strange just cos here most people I know have been on benefits at some time.

The food was great!! and the shopping. People were really friendly but.....I felt it was really insincere, maybe im just to cynical and sarky? I felt I might have enjoyed New York better as they are good at bein sarky!

Saying all this I would still love to drive from one side of the US to the other one day.


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## D (Jul 12, 2007)

marty21 said:
			
		

> illinois in the depth of winter is fucking freezing, i doubt san fran gets quite as cold



Definitely not...but it also rarely gets as hot as it does in other parts of CA.  You can go across the Bay Bridge and get brutal summer weather while it's in the comfortable 70s (whatever that may be in Celsius) in SF.

Fog, bay, cloud cover, etc.

I miss SF all of a sudden.


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## christonabike (Jul 12, 2007)

Loved it

Married in Vegas, drove to SF

Saw the Pogues at the Fillmore, toured the sights, and went and saw some Croyden boys dj'ing dubstep at Club Six

It was fab, the folks were ace, and the navy were in town so we spoke to some excited sailors out and about


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## christonabike (Jul 12, 2007)

> I miss SF all of a sudden.



So do I, and I was only there a week


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## D (Jul 13, 2007)

christonabike said:
			
		

> So do I, and I was only there a week



sigh...


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## fractionMan (Jul 13, 2007)

I hate real life.


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## catrina (Jul 14, 2007)

fM, I don't know you, but may I ask you why you'd harbored that sort of stereotype about America?

Considering there are 300 million people there, to the 60 million people in the UK, is it really that surprising to find some diversity?

But the more people coming back to the UK to dispel the myths, the better, I supppose.

If you'd looked at election patterns, you'd discover that the right-leaning people tend to belong to the more central states. Parts of the North East, as well as most of the West Coast, are very liberal politically indeed.

Anyway, I'm very much looking forward to being in San Fran a week today, I'm glad you liked it!


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## fractionMan (Jul 14, 2007)

My dad's american btw (and I like him for it)


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## catrina (Jul 14, 2007)

So am I.


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## fractionMan (Jul 14, 2007)

Come to think of it, so am I


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## pagan (Jul 14, 2007)

San Fran is wicked  (although the 'loin makes Brixton look like Stepford )
I actually like all of California, even LA.


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