# Dic Penderyn's Trial



## Gavin Bl (Jan 27, 2006)

When I were a lad in Merthyr, I was taught that Dic Penderyn was convicted at least in part because of his refusal to speak English in court.

However, with the advent of that internet - on looking up his trial, I've never been able to find this stated. Not sure if I read it in Gwyn Willams' "Merthyr Rising", but my copy is 'on loan', so I can't check.

Anyone able to comment definitively, or provide a link?

thanks

Gavin


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## editor (Jan 27, 2006)

I know he was Welsh speaking, but can't find anything about him refusing to speak English in court.

He was only 23 when he was murdered.


"DIC PENDERYN

Dic Penderyn was killed at the age of 23 years, still protesting his innocence.   Dic felt that he was being held responsible for the actions of others and ended his time on earth with the words "O Arglwydd, dyma ganwedd" or "Oh Lord, here is injustice." Born in Aberavon in Glamorgan in 1808, he and his family moved to Merthyr in 1819.  Dic and his father both found mining jobs in the town.  It was here that he began to acquire a reputation for leadership and as a champion for workers' rights.  In 1831, the year of his death, Dic was married with a baby on the way."
http://www.south-wales.police.uk/fe/master.asp?n1=8&n2=253&n3=391


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## ZIZI (Jan 27, 2006)

Gavin Bl said:
			
		

> When I were a lad in Merthyr, I was taught that Dic Penderyn was convicted at least in part because of his refusal to speak English in court.
> 
> However, with the advent of that internet - on looking up his trial, I've never been able to find this stated. Not sure if I read it in Gwyn Willams' "Merthyr Rising", but my copy is 'on loan', so I can't check.
> 
> ...


 http://seren.blogspirit.com/archive...rs-and-militants-dic-penderyn-in-his-pro.html



Or is that you already? Good reading anyway.


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## Gavin Bl (Jan 27, 2006)

Thanks for the interesting link, but I don't where it says if he was or not.


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## niclas (Jan 27, 2006)

*Remembering a radical past, creating a radical future*

He was killed because he was a workers' leader and the ruling class needed to teach the Welsh working class a lesson. He spoke Welsh, as did most Welsh workers at the time.

THere's a festival being planned from June 2-4 this year to mark the 175th anniversary of the Rising. Tyrone O'Sullivan and local socialists and republicans involved.

Anyone off here welcome to get involved in organising... a Gwyn Alf Williams memorial lecture, music, videos, radical history, poetry, debates and a giant red flag flying above the town.


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## Gavin Bl (Jan 28, 2006)

niclas said:
			
		

> He was killed because he was a workers' leader and the ruling class needed to teach the Welsh working class a lesson. He spoke Welsh, as did most Welsh workers at the time.



All this I know - did he refuse to speak English in court, and did this become part of his 'guilt'. I'm beginning to think I was misled - imagine - misled by a teacher in the 70s   

Was anyone else there when they unveiled the plaque to him on Merthyr library?


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## ZIZI (Jan 28, 2006)

Gavin Bl said:
			
		

> All this I know - did he refuse to speak English in court, and did this become part of his 'guilt'. I'm beginning to think I was misled - imagine - misled by a teacher in the 70s
> 
> Was anyone else there when they unveiled the plaque to him on Merthyr library?



There is a programme on BBC Wales on Tuesday about Merthyr, its bound to mention Dic Penderyn. I will let you know if any thing is mentioned as I take it you may not receive BBC Two Wales, unless you have digital?


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## Redstar (Jan 29, 2006)

Gavin Bl said:
			
		

> When I were a lad in Merthyr, I was taught that Dic Penderyn was convicted at least in part because of his refusal to speak English in court.
> 
> However, with the advent of that internet - on looking up his trial, I've never been able to find this stated. Not sure if I read it in Gwyn Willams' "Merthyr Rising", but my copy is 'on loan', so I can't check.
> 
> ...



 AFAIK Dic couldnt testify in English for the simple reason that he couldnt speak a word of it - he was a monoglot cymraeg speaker from Aberavon. He was murdered for the crime of stabbing a soldier with a bayonet outside the Castle Inn - a crime he didn't commit...

 Obviously if there had been a Welsh Language Act at the time at least Dic could have been tried unjustly in his own tongue...


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## Gavin Bl (Jan 29, 2006)

Redstar said:
			
		

> AFAIK Dic couldnt testify in English for the simple reason that he couldnt speak a word of it - he was a monoglot cymraeg speaker from Aberavon. He was murdered for the crime of stabbing a soldier with a bayonet outside the Castle Inn - a crime he didn't commit...
> 
> Obviously if there had been a Welsh Language Act at the time at least Dic could have been tried unjustly in his own tongue...



thanks Redstar - I wasn't sure if he was a monoglot.


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## Gavin Bl (Jan 29, 2006)

ZIZI said:
			
		

> There is a programme on BBC Wales on Tuesday about Merthyr, its bound to mention Dic Penderyn. I will let you know if any thing is mentioned as I take it you may not receive BBC Two Wales, unless you have digital?



Thanks Zizi - I'll get my Dad to tape it.

Gav


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## lewislewis (Jan 31, 2006)

Good stuff. Any good Dic Penderyn/Merthyr Rising poetry?


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## niclas (Jan 31, 2006)

lewislewis said:
			
		

> Good stuff. Any good Dic Penderyn/Merthyr Rising poetry?



Alun Rees wrote "Dic Penderyn's farewell" in 'Yesterday's Tomorrow' and Harri Webb wrote "The Merthyr Rising" in 'Green Desert'.

In Welsh Meic Stevens wrote a song called "Dic Penderyn" and Geraint Jarman wrote "Lewsyn yr Heliwr" (Lewis the huntsman - i.e. Lewis Lewis, who was transported to Australia).


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## lewislewis (Jan 31, 2006)

niclas said:
			
		

> Geraint Jarman wrote "Lewsyn yr Heliwr" (Lewis the huntsman - i.e. Lewis Lewis, who was transported to Australia).


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## Brockway (Feb 5, 2006)

Anyone know where on St Mary Street, Cardiff, the gallows where Dic Penderyn was hung was actually located? There ought to be a memorial or a plaque or something.


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## Gavin Bl (Feb 5, 2006)

Brockway said:
			
		

> Anyone know where on St Mary Street, Cardiff, the gallows where Dic Penderyn was hung was actually located? There ought to be a memorial or a plaque or something.



well said, brockway


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## durruti02 (Feb 6, 2006)

i know its not what you're asking but  'All things betray thee'  ( about the rising) by gwyn thomas is class  .. not sure if it's in print  

.. and incidently the library of wales is reprinting some classic english language welsh novels .. including the great Cwmardy by Lewis Jones .. a communist miner/ author

oops .. just noticed udo's thread


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## Gwyddno (Jan 8, 2007)

*Dic a Lewis*

Rhaid cywiro un peth.  Haliwr, sef _haulier_ oedd Lewis, nid heliwr (_hunter/huntsman_).  Deilliodd y camgymeriad o acen y rhan hon o dde-ddwyrain Cymru (y Wenhwyseg), sy'n tueddi i droi seiniau 'a' yn 'e'.  Felly 'Haliwr' -> 'Heliwr'.  Go brin taw am hela y cafodd ei lysenw - prin y byddai ganddo na'r amser na'r egni wedi diwrnod o waith yn tynnu tramiau yn y pwll, heblaw am y ffaith taw'r crach a'r buddugions yn unig oedd yn hela yn y cyfnod hwnnw.

O ran dienyddio Dic, fe'i crogwyd (yn araf a phoenus) y tu fas i'r hyn sydd bellach yn Farchnad Ganolog Caerdydd (safle'r carchar gynt).  Ceir plac i'w gofnodi ef a therfysg Merthyr ger mynedfa Heol y Santes Fair a bues i mewn seremoni coffa iddo yno ryw bedair blynedd nôl, ynghyd â nifer o wleidyddion Llafur a Phlaid Cymru.

Os am glywed yr acen, mynnwch gopi o un o recordiau'r Hwntws (wedi eu hen ddileu o'r catalog, ond ar gael (am wn i) mewn llyfrgelloedd ac mewn casgliadau preifat).

Yr eiddoch yn bedantig...


[I must correct one thing.  'Lewsyn yr Heliwr' is a mistransliteration of 'Lewsyn yr Haliwr' ('Lewis the Haulier') due to the Welsh accent in SE Wales, which tends to turn 'a' sounds into 'e', thus 'halio' (to haul) -> 'he[h]lio'.  It's pretty unlikely that Lewys would have been a huntsman: even allowing for the fact that he would have neither the time nor the energy after working his shift underground, hunting at that time was very much the preserve of the crach.

Dic was hanged (slowly and painfully) outside what is now Cardiff Central Market.  There is a plaque to commemorate him and the Merthyr rising (by the the St Mary's Street entrance) and I was at a memorial service there for Dic some 4 years ago at which a number of politicians from both Labour and Plaid, were present.

To hear this accent, one need do no more than listen to any recording of yr Hwntws (long since deleted from the catalogue but ([robably) available in libraries and private collections).

Yours in pedantry...]


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## la ressistance (Jan 8, 2007)

niclas said:
			
		

> (Lewis the huntsman - i.e. Lewis Lewis, who was transported to Australia).



ooo,i'm reading a book about the first aussie transports.i'm at a point where the authors talking about scottish and irish political transportees,and i was wondering if he's gonna mention the welsh politicals who got shipped.hopefully he will.

(goes off to read book)


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## niclas (Jan 9, 2007)

Gwyddno said:
			
		

> Rhaid cywiro un peth.  Haliwr, sef _haulier_ oedd Lewis, nid heliwr (_hunter/huntsman_).
> 
> [I must correct one thing.  'Lewsyn yr Heliwr' is a mistransliteration of 'Lewsyn yr Haliwr' ('Lewis the Haulier') due to the Welsh accent in SE Wales, which tends to turn 'a' sounds into 'e', thus 'halio' (to haul) -> 'he[h]lio'.



Mae halio yn golygu rhywbeth cwpwl wahanol heddiw  ond o'r diwedd dwi'n dallt y gan "Pan ddaw y haf, fe haliwn y cychod"...

"Halio" means something v different now  (i.e. to wank). Which kinda makes sense if you think of someone tugging away...


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## ddraig (Jan 9, 2007)

Croeso Gwyddno


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## Ben Bore (Jan 9, 2007)

Brockway said:
			
		

> Anyone know where on St Mary Street, Cardiff, the gallows where Dic Penderyn was hung was actually located? There ought to be a memorial or a plaque or something.



I'm sure a plaque was recently unveiled either by the entrance to the indoor market (but facing the church not St Mary's Street) or somewhere on the Hayes.


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## Gwyddno (Jan 9, 2007)

ddraig said:
			
		

> Croeso Gwyddno


Diolch yn fawr am y croeso.  

Niclas, ydy mae halio wedi cael ail ystyr heddi, arwydd o iaith fyw glei, ond mae'r ystyr gwreiddiol yn fyw o hyd i ddisgrifio'r llwybr sy'n dilyn glan camlas, sef y 'llwybr halio'.  Mae Cysgeir hefyd yn rhoi'r anfarwol 'cwt halio'  i olygu "_drumhouse, winding engine house_".  Am le!  

Yes, 'halio' has gained a second meaning these days, a sure sign of a living language, but the original meaning survives in '_llwybr halio_', a towpath.  Cysgeir (an electronic collection of W/E glossaries) also gives the immortal  '_cwt halio_'  meaning "drumhouse, winding engine house".  What a place!


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## niclas (Jan 9, 2007)

Gwyddno said:
			
		

> Diolch yn fawr am y croeso.
> 
> Niclas, ydy mae halio wedi cael ail ystyr heddi, arwydd o iaith fyw glei, ond mae'r ystyr gwreiddiol yn fyw o hyd i ddisgrifio'r llwybr sy'n dilyn glan camlas, sef y 'llwybr halio'.  Mae Cysgeir hefyd yn rhoi'r anfarwol 'cwt halio'  i olygu "_drumhouse, winding engine house_".  Am le!
> 
> Yes, 'halio' has gained a second meaning these days, a sure sign of a living language, but the original meaning survives in '_llwybr halio_', a towpath.  Cysgeir (an electronic collection of W/E glossaries) also gives the immortal  '_cwt halio_'  meaning "drumhouse, winding engine house".  What a place!




O'n i wastad yn amheus am grwydro'r gamlas ar ben fy hun...

I was always dubious about wandering along the canal on my own...


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