# So Tube Strike anyone?



## Biglittlefish (Jun 4, 2009)

(Sorry if there's a thread about this already, I haven't seen it.)

As of now its going ahead which is a major pain in the ass. I think they are unlikely to be getting much sympathy from commuters doing this as the country spins towards the plughole.

Will it go ahead???


----------



## London_Calling (Jun 4, 2009)

Front and centre of the TfL site:

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/


----------



## Biglittlefish (Jun 4, 2009)

Yeah had a look at that, doesn't mean it won't be canceled.


----------



## Biglittlefish (Jun 4, 2009)

The union ain't getting love from tfl but then they wouldn't would they.


----------



## Cloo (Jun 7, 2009)

Still on ATM - about 50% of the time they call 'em off the night before, but I have a feeling it's not going to happen this time. Annoying that it's on two of the three days I'm supposed to be in the office, and that where I live is not great for non-tube alternatives. 

My plan is to work from home on Weds and Thursday morning, come in (by bus - only two buses, but looooong ride) on Thursday afternoon, as I have a much needed massage booked (but I'll have to ring the massuese and check _she_ can get there).


----------



## Citizen66 (Jun 7, 2009)

biglittlefish said:


> as of now its going ahead which is a major pain in the ass. I think they are unlikely to be getting much sympathy from commuters doing this as the country spins towards the plughole.



_gold plated pensions!!!!
_


----------



## marty21 (Jun 7, 2009)

i'm off thursday and friday (going to a funeral) and will drive in on wednesday


----------



## Citizen66 (Jun 7, 2009)

_They're holding the country to ransom!!!!_


----------



## Onket (Jun 7, 2009)

They're clearly only doing it for a laugh, etc.


----------



## quimcunx (Jun 7, 2009)

Is it the Victoria lot or the rest lot?


----------



## fogbat (Jun 7, 2009)

As long as you tube-using bastards don't start blocking up my buses, I don't mind.


----------



## Citizen66 (Jun 7, 2009)

_They get paid more than the nurses!!!!_


----------



## hoverdonkey (Jun 7, 2009)

fogbat said:


> As long as you tube-using bastards don't start blocking up my buses, I don't mind.



Ain't that the truth. Wednesday could be fun


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jun 7, 2009)

quimcunx said:


> Is it the Victoria lot or the rest lot?



No, the whole shower of 'em  

Still, it's lucky the weather's got cooler, nothing like getting on the top of a sweltering bus with the sun roasting you through the windows


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jun 7, 2009)

Having said that, sometimes the Victoria Line is the *only *line running a limited service


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jun 7, 2009)

> *Note to editors*
> The RMT has announced strike action to commence at 18.59 hours on Tuesday 9 June through to 18.58 hours on Thursday 11 June 2009.


----------



## Citizen66 (Jun 7, 2009)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


>



Two days.

Shift patterns.


----------



## lenny101 (Jun 7, 2009)

I shall by cycling as usual. 

Unless its raining.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jun 7, 2009)

Citizen66 said:


> Two days.
> 
> Shift patterns.




oh, I've just looked at the date on U75.

Would seem the date on my clock is wrong as it's saying it's already the 8th


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jun 7, 2009)

lenny101 said:


> I shall by cycling as usual.
> 
> Unless its raining.





I think you might want to take a look at the BBC forecast for the next few days 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/weather/forecast/4292?area=SW2


----------



## lenny101 (Jun 7, 2009)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> I think you might want to take a look at the BBC forecast for the next few days
> 
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/weather/forecast/4292?area=SW2



Brilliant


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jun 7, 2009)

lenny101 said:


> Brilliant




but it'll keep you cool.  Pretend you're in Malaysia praying for a break from the scorching heat


----------



## Mitre10 (Jun 8, 2009)

Is this now definitely on or are they still having further talks?

Will be gutted if it goes ahead as I booked tickets for a friend at the open air theatre in Regent's Park. She had a hard time recently and ended up being sectioned for her own safety & seeing as it was her b'day on Weds I thought it might cheer her up.

Living at the very far end of the central line we wouldn't be able to go - getting there might be possible (albeit about 3hrs) but getting back would be impossible after the performance.

Fairly typical luck


----------



## hipipol (Jun 8, 2009)

The RMT leader, forget is name, is such a total arsehole cant see this getting called off.

Seem to recall him wanting to call a strike cos some guy had been sacked after he was filmed playing tennis or football having been off on full pay for a year cos of his "bad back"

Fuck em


----------



## rennie (Jun 8, 2009)

Mitre10 said:


> Is this now definitely on or are they still having further talks?
> 
> Will be gutted if it goes ahead as I booked tickets for a friend at the open air theatre in Regent's Park. She had a hard time recently and ended up being sectioned for her own safety & seeing as it was her b'day on Weds I thought it might cheer her up.
> 
> ...



Can ya fork out for a cab? Bus and then train it?


----------



## Mitre10 (Jun 8, 2009)

Possibly, although it would be taxi from Epping - Harlow, train into L'pool St, bus to Regents Park - might not be too bad.

Performance doesn't start till 8 and not too sure what time it finishes - 10ish maybe so I suppose it'll be do-able. Will just cost another £50 or so in cab fares at this end which is something I could do without after buying the tickets in the first place.

It'll be right somehow I suppose, these things are sent to test us


----------



## gabi (Jun 8, 2009)

hipipol said:


> The RMT leader, forget is name, is such a total arsehole cant see this getting called off.
> 
> Seem to recall him wanting to call a strike cos some guy had been sacked after he was filmed playing tennis or football having been off on full pay for a year cos of his "bad back"
> 
> Fuck em



That would be Bob Crow.

The incident you're thinking of is when a tube driver who was signed off with a bad back turned out to be having weekly squash lessons so was sacked. A strike in support of him followed.

A few weeks later, a large stash of booze was found in a tube drivers staff room. Booze is banned for all TFL staff, even office workers let alone the fucking drivers. Several were suspended or sacked as a result, this was followed by a strike in their support.

How anyone can support Crow and his organisation's actions is beyond me.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jun 8, 2009)

Are there no overhead rail stations anywhere near?


----------



## Badgers (Jun 8, 2009)

Working from home then


----------



## Kanda (Jun 8, 2009)

Fuck, I'm on double shifts those days  7am-6pm


----------



## trashpony (Jun 8, 2009)

Kanda said:


> Fuck, I'm on double shifts those days  7am-6pm



How long will it take you on the bus? 

I have a pox-ridden child so I am housebound anyway. I suppose this way I won't have to pretend to work


----------



## Kanda (Jun 8, 2009)

trashpony said:


> How long will it take you on the bus?
> 
> I have a pox-ridden child so I am housebound anyway. I suppose this way I won't have to pretend to work


 
About an hour in the morning, 90 mins on way home. Have to get up at 5:30am now.. fucksake 

Then get home at 7:45 ish, eat then straight to sleep again. I hate double shifts.


----------



## wreckhead (Jun 8, 2009)

I'm going to Faith No More in Brixton that night, arriving in Paddington at about 4pm.  I imagine getting to my mate's flat in King's Cross, dumping my bag and laptop and then getting down to Brixton for a few casual beers prior to the gig is going to be a lot more trouble than I had anticipated, given the weather and my complete lack of knowledge of the bus routes.


----------



## Mitre10 (Jun 8, 2009)

Hmmm, currently "in talks".

I can see where they're coming from redundancy-wise but the 5% payrise is taking the fucking piss. MOst people are grateful just to have a job at the moment, never mind one that already pays £35K(ish), a 30 hour week and 40 days holiday a year.

We've had a 10% paycut this year which followed 3 rounds of redundancies that got rid of 30% of the workforce 

Fuckers should have a word with themselves.


ETA: http://news.google.co.uk/news/more?pz=1&ned=uk&cf=all&ncl=drzOMg_ZRsXxkHMDUc_m2ulz3yWhM


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jun 8, 2009)

Mitre10 said:


> Hmmm, currently "in talks".
> 
> I can see where they're coming from redundancy-wise but the 5% payrise is taking the fucking piss. MOst people are grateful just to have a job at the moment, never mind one that already pays £35K(ish), a 30 hour week and 40 days holiday a year.
> 
> ...


 

*awaits the normal "they work in the dark, it's a dangerous job, theye have people commit suicide in front of them"* posters



*searches for longdog and deckchairs*


----------



## rennie (Jun 8, 2009)

wreckhead said:


> I'm going to Faith No More in Brixton that night, arriving in Paddington at about 4pm.  I imagine getting to my mate's flat in King's Cross, dumping my bag and laptop and then getting down to Brixton for a few casual beers prior to the gig is going to be a lot more trouble than I had anticipated, given the weather and my complete lack of knowledge of the bus routes.



There are a few buses that go from Paddington to King's Cross and the 45 is slow but will eventually get you from King's Cross to Brixton.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jun 8, 2009)

wreckhead said:


> I'm going to Faith No More in Brixton that night, arriving in Paddington at about 4pm. I imagine getting to my mate's flat in King's Cross, dumping my bag and laptop and then getting down to Brixton for a few casual beers prior to the gig is going to be a lot more trouble than I had anticipated, given the weather and my complete lack of knowledge of the bus routes.


 

No. 45 goes to Brixton


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jun 8, 2009)

rennie said:


> There are a few buses that go from Paddington to King's Cross and the 45 is slow but will eventually get you from King's Cross to Brixton.


 

and if, when the 45 gets into Elephant, you see a 133, 333, 155, 196 or 415 pull in that looks like it's got space, switch on to one of those as it avoids going down Walworth Road.

However, with the 155, you'll have to get off at Oval, cross the road and get onto Brixton Road where you'll have a choice of the Nos. 3, 59, 133, 159, 333 and 415

Avoid the 196 unless you want a mini tour of that Vauxhall area


----------



## Diamond (Jun 8, 2009)

They want a 5% pay rise while the country is experiencing deflation?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jun 8, 2009)

Diamond said:


> They want a 5% pay rise while the country is experiencing deflation?


 


They know London grinds to a halt when they're on strike so they don't give a shit


----------



## Mitre10 (Jun 8, 2009)

Is this the first time Boris has had to deal with a tube strike threat or has there been a previous one since he has been Mayor?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jun 8, 2009)

Mitre10 said:


> Is this the first time Boris has had to deal with a tube strike threat or has there been a previous one since he has been Mayor?


 

Victoria Line or does that not count as a strike?


----------



## ovaltina (Jun 8, 2009)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> They know London grinds to a halt when they're on strike so they don't give a shit



The Olympics will be a test - what's the betting they hold Boris to ransom?


----------



## wreckhead (Jun 8, 2009)

.


----------



## wreckhead (Jun 8, 2009)

rennie said:


> There are a few buses that go from Paddington to King's Cross and the 45 is slow but will eventually get you from King's Cross to Brixton.





Minnie_the_Minx said:


> No. 45 goes to Brixton



Thanks for the help both.   My friend is meeting me in the City when he finishes work and reassures me we'll have no problems getting to Brixton!


----------



## Mitre10 (Jun 8, 2009)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Victoria Line or does that not count as a strike?




Don't really know tbh, have been racking my brains and I think it could be the first "real" one since he came to office.

Be interesting to see how he deals with it I suppose - can't imagine two more different people than Boris and Bob Crowe...


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jun 8, 2009)

wreckhead said:


> Thanks for the help both.  My friend is meeting me in the City when he finishes work and reassures me we'll have no problems getting to Brixton!


 


ah, well if you're near Liverpool Street, you can get the 133 which starts from there so hopefully you'll get a seat


----------



## hipipol (Jun 8, 2009)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> ah, well if you're near Liverpool Street, you can get the 133 which starts from there so hopefully you'll get a seat


It often actually starts from Moorgate, having stashed itself in Finsbury Circus


----------



## Isambard (Jun 8, 2009)

Mitre10 said:


> We've had a 10% paycut this year which followed 3 rounds of redundancies that got rid of 30% of the workforce.



Perhaps if more of us were organised in strong unions we wouldn't get treated like shit by the bosses and made to pay for their crisis?


----------



## hipipol (Jun 8, 2009)

Isambard said:


> Perhaps if more of us were organised in strong unions we wouldn't get treated like shit by the bosses and made to pay for their crisis?




Do you remember the 70s?


----------



## Isambard (Jun 8, 2009)

hipipol said:


> Do you remember the 70s?



Vaguely, although I was a tiny wee lad.

Basicly, workers were getting shat on.
Rather than accepting that, they tried to do do something about it.

(At the end they were getting shat on by a Labour government, funny that.)


----------



## brix (Jun 8, 2009)

Isambard said:


> Vaguely, although I was a tiny wee lad.
> 
> Basicly, workers were getting shat on.
> Rather than accepting that, they tried to do do something about it.
> ...



Completely agree with Isambard.

Just got a text from TfL.  Strike confirmed.


----------



## gabi (Jun 8, 2009)

brix said:


> Completely agree with Isambard.
> 
> Just got a text from TfL.  Strike confirmed.



Do you think the tube drivers are being 'shat on'?

Seriously?

£35k starting salary. Best pension in the public sector. Easy as fuck work. While the rest of us are taking pay cuts just to keep our heads above water these lovely chaps are demanding a well, well, above inflation pay increase. Do you really agree with isambard?


----------



## brix (Jun 8, 2009)

gabi said:


> Do you think the tube drivers are being 'shat on'?
> 
> Seriously?
> 
> £35k starting salary. Best pension in the public sector. Easy as fuck work. While the rest of us are taking pay cuts just to keep our heads above water these lovely chaps are demanding a well, well, above inflation pay increase. Do you really agree with isambard?



I love the way you pick out just a bit of one of Isambard's posts then jump up and down demanding I answer you.  Brilliant.  Keep going, I'll pop back later.


----------



## gabi (Jun 8, 2009)

brix said:


> I love the way you pick out just a bit of one of Isambard's posts then jump up and down demanding I answer you.  Brilliant.  Keep going, I'll pop back later.



Er, can't be arsed.. isambard appears to be attempting to equate the miners in the 70s with tube drivers today. There's a few subtle differences


----------



## Zeppo (Jun 8, 2009)

Latest from BBC website - strike goes ahead say RMT.


----------



## pk (Jun 8, 2009)

No sympathy for the tube drivers now. 

They've developed a knack for milking the system for all it's worth.

I might have been supportive 10 years ago, but not now. Bob Crow is a cunt.


----------



## Isambard (Jun 8, 2009)

There are plenty of workers in the public sector and the private sector on worse conditions. And? What's that got to do with the price of eggs?

Is that the idea of what is just these days?
That it is right for the bosses to race towards the lowest common demoninantor?

Next time any one tries to cut your pay or extend your hours or worsen your conditions you gonna say "you go right ahead boss cos there were Chinese immigrants risking their lives picking cockles in Morecombe Bay for a pound an hour" and I can't complain as long as there is someone worse off from me." ?

Transport workers (or indeed others) have to put up with a lot of bile when they stick up for themselves but if they let themselves get walked all over you are hardly going to be giving them flowers and sweeties. 

In fact they are doing you a favour. YES, it's some inconvenience. That's the point of a strike, to stop the production of the good. If they lose struggles however, the bosses will see a clear field to go further with less organised workers.


----------



## Mitre10 (Jun 8, 2009)

Mitre10 said:


> We've had a 10% paycut this year which followed 3 rounds of redundancies that got rid of 30% of the workforce





Isambard said:


> Perhaps if more of us were organised in strong unions we wouldn't get treated like shit by the bosses and made to pay for their crisis?



Yeah, thats right.

For your information I work in the construction industry, which, if you haven't noticed, is being affected by one of the most serious recessions in memory.

What a shame that I don't belong to a "strong union" which would, no doubt, protest against all redundancies and pay adjustments thus ensuring that the whole company goes bankrupt rather than taking the necessary measures to hopefully get through the next couple of years until the economic recovery begins.

What have we all been thinking.


----------



## Isambard (Jun 8, 2009)

There's the rub though innit, "necessary measures".

Do you really think that in 6-24 months say when things pick up and it's no longer "nescessary", the employers are going to reverse the pay cuts, create the positions again, improve the conditions?

They won't of their own back, that's for sure.
Good pay and conditons are won through two ways, either industrial millitancy or a high demand for labour of which there is limited supply.

Even during the "good years" there was a downward screw on real term pay and massive increases in productivity. We were getting pissy 2% pay rises when the real rate of inflation was much higher and one of lump sums that never accumulate over the years. And from the employers side the message to protect our jobs by not threatening the boom.

For the employers that manage to survice this recession in capitalism, it won't be a bad thing as they will have another chance to force pay and conditions down with the chances of the balance of forces moving the other way seemingly gone for a generation.


----------



## Diamond (Jun 8, 2009)

Isambard said:


> Good pay and conditons are won through two ways, either industrial millitancy or a high demand for labour of which there is limited supply.



Across the whole economy?

You got any proof for this, or is it a belief?


----------



## Isambard (Jun 8, 2009)

Diamond said:


> Across the whole economy?



Pretty much so.

The other cause of good conditions might be say the police where good conditions are offeed in eturn for loyalty, but that might also be classified as demand for a certain type of labour.

What other reasons might there be for employers to offer better pay and conditions?


----------



## Roadkill (Jun 8, 2009)

gabi said:


> £35k starting salary. Best pension in the public sector. Easy as fuck work. While the rest of us are taking pay cuts just to keep our heads above water these lovely chaps are demanding a well, well, above inflation pay increase.



Tube-driving is highly responsible, safety critical and involves working unsociable hours in fairly unpleasant conditions with the ever-present risk of having someone's guts spattered all over the front of the cab.  I don't think tube drivers' pay, pension entitlements and the rest are at all unreasonable.  They maintain them, of course, through having a strong union, and quite right too.  More of us should.  I have to say that I don't think the RMT's pay claim on this occasion is very realistic, though.


----------



## Diamond (Jun 8, 2009)

Isambard said:


> Pretty much so.
> 
> The other cause of good conditions might be say the police where good conditions are offeed in eturn for loyalty, but that might also be classified as demand for a certain type of labour.
> 
> What other reasons might there be for employers to offer better pay and conditions?



Off the top of my head...

To incentivise their employees/attract better employees.


----------



## Diamond (Jun 8, 2009)

Roadkill said:


> I have to say that I don't think the RMT's pay claim on this occasion is very realistic, though.



That is an understatement.


----------



## brix (Jun 8, 2009)

Diamond said:


> Off the top of my head...
> 
> To incentivise their employees/attract better employees.




Yeah, that worked in the banking industry.





Oh... hang on...


----------



## Diamond (Jun 8, 2009)

Yep that was a monumental fuck up for a whole host of reasons, the bonus culture being one of the main ones.


----------



## Isambard (Jun 8, 2009)

Diamond said:


> To incentivise their employees/attract better employees.



Well exactly, as I said. When employers have demand for labour, particuarly qualified labour, that is in relatively short supply and they have to compete with other employees to get that labour, they will offer better pay and conditions.

However the massive expansion of education, de-skilling of jobs, the development of Europe and globalisation amongst other factors means that isn't on the cards much these days.

Any worsening or pay and conditions (we are braced for the screws being turned on our flexitime next week) is NOT going to come back in a hurry which is why they are worth defending, even in the midst of a crisis that we certainly didn't make.


----------



## Diamond (Jun 8, 2009)

Isambard said:


> de-skilling of jobs



What does this mean, and haven't you just described the way a labour market works?


----------



## Isambard (Jun 8, 2009)

Yes, that's how the capitalist labour market works.
Increase the exploitation of labour to increase profit and I think it is fundamentally wrong.

By de-skilling of jobs I don't mean that individual workers are becoming less inteligent, far from it. Perhaps a better description might be the de-valuing of jobs. 

Jobs that were 10, 15 years ago of managerial status with the high qualifications and experience neeeded resulting in car and bonuses and nice salary get downgraded and although not open to school leavers at 16 are worth financially and in terms of social standing less than they used to be.

My personal opinion in terms of striking tube drivers who are "classic" workers is that this is where a lot of the bitterness from supposedly the supposedly urbaine young comes from. With a jolt they realise that the middle class dream they were sold of "go to university and you will get a nice job" is bollocks and the bile rises.


----------



## Diamond (Jun 8, 2009)

That's a bizarrely rigid view of how the job market works.

Old jobs become redundant as the economy modernises and improves from a technological point of view, just as new jobs are created with new industries.

There is no overall downward trend. In terms of real purchasing power British incomes have increased over the long-term. If anything, there has been a very long upwards trend since the war.


----------



## Isambard (Jun 8, 2009)

Technology changes and indeed old jobs become redundant.
Railway workers jobs were created isntead of canal workers jobs instead of pack horse drivers jobs.

The way technology is also used though is to reduce the number of workers to produce the same ammount of goods ie the profit per worker and thus the exploitation per worker increases.

At the start of this process you can offer the individualw worker better pay and conditions but the employer will attempt to push that down in real terms over time.

Living standards in Britain increased steadily since 1945.
I remember outside toilets, paraffin heating and cold water only plumbing as a child. Where that began to falter I don't know. But we are in the situation now where a lot of today's generations are going to end their days poorer than their parents. Hence the bitterness.

Anyhoo, before we go off on too much of a tangent; my contentions stands:
Pay and conditions only get better through inductrial millitancy or the demands of the employers for relativly rare highly qualified labour.
So anything we give up now ain't gonna come back in a hurry.


----------



## Diamond (Jun 9, 2009)

I can see where you're coming from but I don't think it makes too much sense in the modern market economy, although no doubt it'd vary from business to business and something like driving tube trains would be more liable to that kind of exploitation than anything else.

From my point of view it is in the interests of the employer to maintain a workforce that have a decent wage and good conditions linked to incentives because that improves productivity, which is a far more sustainable and effective way to gaining profit (if that indeed is your end goal, and that cannot be taken for granted).

It's a bit like setting price: sure, you can charge a lot for your product but that will likely reduce revenue by reducing sales, consequently reducing your profit margin. Therefore it is more sensible to charge a lower price which maximises revenue. In the same way you can try and pay shit wages and provide crap conditions but the likely effect is that you will recruit poor quality employees who will be undermotivated, possiblly underqualified, over employed and most likely will do a shit job therefore reducing productivity/product quality and increasing your relative costs/market reputation therefore leading to a reduction in the profit margin. 

At least that's the way the market is supposed to work.


----------



## Citizen66 (Jun 9, 2009)

gabi said:


> How anyone can support Crow and his organisation's actions is beyond me.



Well this strike is about threatened job losses so you can fuck the fuck off.

And Bob Crow doesn't call a strike and people 'support him'. The members get balloted you loon.


----------



## Citizen66 (Jun 9, 2009)

pk said:


> No sympathy for the tube drivers now.
> 
> They've developed a knack for milking the system for all it's worth.
> 
> I might have been supportive 10 years ago, but not now. Bob Crow is a cunt.



It's mainly about office workers losing their jobs.


----------



## gabi (Jun 9, 2009)

Citizen66 said:


> Well this strike is about threatened job losses so you can fuck the fuck off.
> 
> And Bob Crow doesn't call a strike and people 'support him'. The members get balloted you loon.



Surplus cunts are surplus. You of all should people should know this.


----------



## gabi (Jun 9, 2009)

Citizen66 said:


> It's mainly about office workers losing their jobs.



No, its about greedy pricks demanding a wage increase when the rest of the general populace are taking pay cuts out of necessity.

You fucking idiot. Unbelievable.


----------



## Citizen66 (Jun 9, 2009)

gabi said:


> Surplus cunts are surplus. You of all should people should know this.



How terrible wanting to protect people's jobs in the current climate.

Oh, and old meme is old.


----------



## gabi (Jun 9, 2009)

Citizen66 said:


> Oh, and old meme is old.



The irony. My sides.


----------



## Citizen66 (Jun 9, 2009)

gabi said:


> No, its about greedy pricks demanding a wage increase when the rest of the general populace are taking pay cuts out of necessity.
> 
> You fucking idiot. Unbelievable.



It's partly that, yes. But also about protecting job losses of office workers. And I don't see wanting more than a 1% pay deal as particularly 'greedy'. Not after what we're witnessing with the politicians and bankers.


----------



## gabi (Jun 9, 2009)

Citizen66 said:


> It's partly that, yes. But also about protecting job losses of office workers. And I don't see wanting more than a 1% pay deal as particularly 'greedy'. Not after what we're witnessing with the politicians and bankers.



They want 5%.

I've taken a -40% for reference sake. I'm not striking. I'm dealing with it.


----------



## Citizen66 (Jun 9, 2009)

gabi said:


> They want 5%.
> 
> I've taken a -40% for reference sake. I'm not striking. I'm dealing with it.



That's probably the negotiating price in order to get around the 3% mark. They are being offered 1%. My sources are slightly more accurate than the evening standard by the way, Tory Girl.


----------



## Citizen66 (Jun 9, 2009)

gabi said:


> I've taken a -40% for reference sake. I'm not striking. I'm dealing with it.



Well it's not my fault if you're too dumb and pro-capitalist to find yourself in that position, is it?


----------



## gabi (Jun 9, 2009)

Citizen66 said:


> That's probably the negotiating price in order to get around the 3% mark. They are being offered 1%. My sources are slightly more accurate than the evening standard by the way, Tory Girl.





Well.



C'mon then deepthroat, whos your source?


----------



## Citizen66 (Jun 9, 2009)

gabi said:


> Well.
> 
> 
> 
> C'mon then deepthroat, whos your source?



I'm a member.


----------



## gabi (Jun 9, 2009)

Citizen66 said:


> Well it's not my fault if you're too dumb and pro-capitalist to find yourself in that position, is it?



Do you have a job? Just curious like. Do you get paid?


----------



## Citizen66 (Jun 9, 2009)

gabi said:


> Do you have a job? Just curious like. Do you get paid?



I answered that above, I think!


----------



## pk (Jun 9, 2009)

Citizen66 said:


> It's mainly about office workers losing their jobs.



Aye. Well Bob Crow is still a cunt.

Loves seeing himself on the news.


----------



## Andy the Don (Jun 9, 2009)

I have a good mate who is a tube driver on the District Line and according to him Bob Crow is getting support from a small cabal of the workforce. Most of the tube drivers are aslef members and very happy with their pay and conditions with a modicum amount of overtime a tube driver can earn £42-45,000+ pa. Bob Crow gets his support from the tube station staff and if the stations do not open passengers cannot get the trains. Anyhow Tony has texted me saying that as it is not aslef taking industrial action he will just have to book in by phone and then will be booked off to spend the day fishing and on full pay and wished all of us poor commuters a pleasant journey to work for the rest of the week.


----------



## Badgers (Jun 9, 2009)

I am actually ok as I do not use the tube but wifey normally goes Northern Line into London Bridge which will be mucky. 
Guess that the solution for us (her) is to leave at stupidoclock in the morning and *try* to beat the bus rush. 
No doubt that we will not be alone in this plan though.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Jun 9, 2009)

Citizen66 said:


> _They're holding the country to ransom!!!!_





Your contributions to this thread cheered me up a great deal, Citizen66.


----------



## kabbes (Jun 9, 2009)

It's a gold-plated excuse to "work" from home.

Gawd love the tubies.


----------



## rover07 (Jun 9, 2009)

How about this Friday and Monday after?

All those in favour...


----------



## echoecho (Jun 9, 2009)

According to TfL:

*Oyster Pay As You Go will be accepted on all National Rail journeys within Greater London on Wednesday and Thursday *

WHY has it taken so long? and if the systems are already in place, why will it be accepted during the strike only and not afterwards?


----------



## kyser_soze (Jun 9, 2009)

Because tfl are still arguiing/negotiating with the TOCs about the relative value and ticket prices one can expect to pay on pre-pay Oyster for overland travel.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jun 9, 2009)

echoecho said:


> According to TfL:
> 
> *Oyster Pay As You Go will be accepted on all National Rail journeys within Greater London on Wednesday and Thursday *
> 
> WHY has it taken so long? and if the systems are already in place, why will it be accepted during the strike only and not afterwards?


 

isn't it because they haven't got Oyster readers at all stations?


----------



## echoecho (Jun 9, 2009)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> isn't it because they haven't got Oyster readers at all stations?



they installed Oyster readers at the BR stations near me several months ago but apparently they won't be activated until next year sometime so yeah I suppose they're waiting on stations elsewhere in London to install them. 

but if they can suddenly get them working and negotiate ticket prices for a two day strike they might as well keep it going afterwards.


----------



## hoverdonkey (Jun 9, 2009)

How are they defining Greater London?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jun 9, 2009)

echoecho said:


> they installed Oyster readers at the BR stations near me several months ago but apparently they won't be activated until next year sometime so yeah I suppose they're waiting on stations elsewhere in London to install them.
> 
> but if they can suddenly get them working and negotiate ticket prices for a two day strike they might as well keep it going afterwards.


 

Maybe they're just trust that the people in the suburbs without working Oyster machines have paid their fares, rather than actually making the Oyster Card readers work for two days?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jun 9, 2009)

hoverdonkey said:


> How are they defining Greater London?


 

Within the zones maybe?


----------



## 8den (Jun 9, 2009)

This is going to both suck and blow, last strike Liverpool street resembled the fall of Saigon, only much ruder and with more shoving.


----------



## ajdown (Jun 9, 2009)

There seemed to be quite a crowd outside Brixton tube this morning and the metal doors half shut as I went past on the bus.  I thought it started tonight?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jun 9, 2009)

ajdown said:


> There seemed to be quite a crowd outside Brixton tube this morning and the metal doors half shut as I went past on the bus. I thought it started tonight?


 

maybe overcrowding? 

What time was that?


----------



## Badgers (Jun 9, 2009)

Been said before but....
Shame all of us commuters can't strike for two days


----------



## Belushi (Jun 9, 2009)

ajdown said:


> There seemed to be quite a crowd outside Brixton tube this morning and the metal doors half shut as I went past on the bus.  I thought it started tonight?



Thats happening every morning because one fo the escalators is down.


----------



## rennie (Jun 9, 2009)

Belushi said:


> Thats happening every morning because one fo the escalators is down.



Yup.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Jun 9, 2009)

God, the bitterness on this thread is fucking incredible.... _i get royally shafted by my job so i don't see why anyone else shouldn't be._

Fucking hell, the dead will be left unburied.  Anyone who doesn't support a strike is a fucking cunt of the highest order.  Bloody hell gabi, if i ever start a business I'm going to offer you a job.  The neo-lib cock is jammed so far down your throat i reckon i could have you paying me for the privilege of mowing my lawn by the end of it.


----------



## gabi (Jun 9, 2009)

malcolm eggs said:


> God, the bitterness on this thread is fucking incredible.... _i get royally shafted by my job so i don't see why anyone else shouldn't be._
> 
> Fucking hell, the dead will be left unburied.  Anyone who doesn't support a strike is a fucking cunt of the highest order.  Bloody hell gabi, if i ever start a business I'm going to offer you a job.  The neo-lib cock is jammed so far down your throat i reckon i could have you paying me for the privilege of mowing my lawn by the end of it.



O fuck off 

Jesus fucking holy christ. Get those blinkers off sunshine, you dont NEED to agree with every industrial action just for the fucking sake of it. The RMT is taking the piss here. Again. 

'Neo-lib'


----------



## Roadkill (Jun 9, 2009)

malcolm eggs said:


> God, the bitterness on this thread is fucking incredible.... _i get royally shafted by my job so i don't see why anyone else shouldn't be._



It's the politics of envy!


----------



## ExtraRefined (Jun 9, 2009)

Fire the lot, replace them with robots or cheap foreign labour _a la_ Murdoch.

Hopefully they'll all starve to death / commit suicide after they realise no employer in London will take on an ex tube driver after the grief they've caused


----------



## ajdown (Jun 9, 2009)

Badgers said:


> Been said before but....
> Shame all of us commuters can't strike for two days



I quite fancy a few days off for no good reason.


----------



## 8den (Jun 9, 2009)

malcolm eggs said:


> Anyone who doesn't support a strike is a fucking cunt of the highest order.


  Could you perhaps coherently and simply explain the reasons for this industrial action? 





> Bloody hell gabi, if i ever start a business I'm going to offer you a job.  The neo-lib cock is jammed so far down your throat i reckon i could have you paying me for the privilege of mowing my lawn by the end of it.



Or is this some kneejerk solidarity action?


----------



## Citizen66 (Jun 9, 2009)

Andy the Don said:


> I have a good mate who is a tube driver on the District Line and according to him Bob Crow is getting support from a small cabal of the workforce.



Untrue. There was an 85% yes vote from half of the RMT members who bothered to vote. So we can assume that the rest were perfectly happy with striking seeing as they didn't bother to say otherwise on their ballot paper (seeing that strike action usually ends in a yes vote for the union).



> Most of the tube drivers are aslef members and very happy with their pay and conditions with a modicum amount of overtime a tube driver can earn £42-45,000+ pa. Bob Crow gets his support from the tube station staff and if the stations do not open passengers cannot get the trains. Anyhow Tony has texted me saying that as it is not aslef taking industrial action he will just have to book in by phone and then will be booked off to spend the day fishing and on full pay and wished all of us poor commuters a pleasant journey to work for the rest of the week.



A lot of tube drivers are Aslef but some are RMT too. Most people I've spoken to aren't really bothered by a pay increase during the current financial climate (me included). It's the proposed forced redundancies that we're walking out over.


----------



## pootle (Jun 9, 2009)

Politics aside (and personally I think there should be more industrial action in this country) has anyone tried to use the TFL journey planner during strike time.

I'm off to see Britney at the 02 on Thursday and whilst the strike is supposed to end at 7pm on thursday night, I'm assuming there won't be much of a service until Friday am? Is this right?

I'm coming from Russell Square, so I'm thinking it's a brilliant excuse to get the river service to North Greenwich and boat back and then bus from Waterloo to Manor House - does that sound about right.  The bus from Waterloo to North Greenwich will take a facking age, won't it?


----------



## Roadkill (Jun 9, 2009)

pootle said:


> I'm coming from Russell Square, so I'm thinking it's a brilliant excuse to get the river service to North Greenwich and boat back and then bus from Waterloo to Manor House - does that sound about right.  The bus from Waterloo to North Greenwich will take a facking age, won't it?



The 188 bus goes direct from Russell Square to North Greenwich.  It usually takes an hour-ish, but in the rush hour during a tube strike it'll probably be longer...


----------



## Kanda (Jun 9, 2009)

8den said:


> Could you perhaps coherently and simply explain the reasons for this industrial action?


 
From the other thread:


> Here's TfL's press release - seems the RMT also want the guys who were busted drinking on the job to be re-instated as one of their latest demands. Classy.
> 
> 
> Quote:
> ...


----------



## Citizen66 (Jun 9, 2009)

Kanda said:


> From the other thread:



From the RMT circular (for balance and all that):



> Dispute Update
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jun 9, 2009)

Roadkill said:


> The 188 bus goes direct from Russell Square to North Greenwich. It usually takes an hour-ish, but in the rush hour during a tube strike it'll probably be longer...


 

There might be *some *tube trains running, but a *normal *service won't until Friday

Suppose it depends on where they've "parked" their trains


----------



## Kanda (Jun 9, 2009)

Citizen66 said:


> From the RMT circular (for balance and all that):


 
Cheers, hadn't seen that.


----------



## pootle (Jun 9, 2009)

Roadkill said:


> The 188 bus goes direct from Russell Square to North Greenwich.  It usually takes an hour-ish, but in the rush hour during a tube strike it'll probably be longer...



Cheers Roadkill! The TFL site is wonking out everytime I ask about a journey for tube strike day


----------



## Roadkill (Jun 9, 2009)

pootle said:


> Cheers Roadkill! The TFL site is wonking out everytime I ask about a journey for tube strike day



Thought it might!

the 188's a good service, if sometimes a bit slow - buses every 8 minutes or so during the day, and every half-hour throughout the night.


----------



## gabi (Jun 9, 2009)

> · They refused to reverse the injustices against any of the seven individual cases that we asked them to review.



Would love for them to go into slightly more detail on that one 

Squash, anyone?


----------



## Cloo (Jun 9, 2009)

They could have at least done it on a week with nice weather so we could all 'work from home' in the garden or park.


----------



## 8den (Jun 9, 2009)

Citizen66 said:


> From the RMT circular (for balance and all that):



TA. I was looking for the RMT's side of things. 



> - a pay offer below the real rate of inflation ie. a real-terms pay cut
> 
> - no improvements to your conditions of work
> 
> - the threat of compulsory redundancy hanging over all our staff



NO! Shock fucking horror, and in this economic climate, as well! 

Idiots. 




> - several of your workmates unfairly sacked or disciplined



Do the rules say no drinking/booze on the job?



> - managers continuing with their regime of fear and intimidation against staff when you are sick



Such as being annoyed that someone on sickpay for a "bad back" can play squash?


----------



## Citizen66 (Jun 9, 2009)

gabi said:


> Would love for them to go into slightly more detail on that one
> 
> Squash, anyone?





8den said:


> Do the rules say no drinking/booze on the job?



I have no information regarding the sacked/disciplined colleagues. What I can say that if you're caught with any alcohol or drugs in your system whilst on duty then you are dismissed for gross misconduct. 

Like I said, most people voted yes to protect jobs. obviously there's other concurrent disputes but imagine how pissed off you'd be if we walked out for each of them all on an individual basis.


----------



## Citizen66 (Jun 9, 2009)

8den said:


> Such as being annoyed that someone on sickpay for a "bad back" can play squash?



Jesus wept, what year was that?

And there's two sides to every story. It isn't just the narrative that the management push through the ever obliging anti-union Sub Standard.


----------



## echoecho (Jun 9, 2009)

pootle said:


> Politics aside (and personally I think there should be more industrial action in this country) has anyone tried to use the TFL journey planner during strike time.
> 
> I'm off to see Britney at the 02 on Thursday and whilst the strike is supposed to end at 7pm on thursday night, I'm assuming there won't be much of a service until Friday am? Is this right?
> 
> I'm coming from Russell Square, so I'm thinking it's a brilliant excuse to get the river service to North Greenwich and boat back and then bus from Waterloo to Manor House - does that sound about right.  The bus from Waterloo to North Greenwich will take a facking age, won't it?



definitely get the boat, the buses are hell on event nights when the tube is suspended. I finish work at the O2 at around 11:30 and I've had to wait til after half 12 just to get on a 188 bus. buy your return ticket for the boat before the concert so you don't have to spend ages queuing.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jun 9, 2009)

pootle said:


> Cheers Roadkill! The TFL site is wonking out everytime I ask about a journey for tube strike day


 

Have you unclicked "tube" to take the tube out of the search?


----------



## gabi (Jun 9, 2009)

Citizen66 said:


> I have no information regarding the sacked/disciplined colleagues. What I can say that if you're caught with any alcohol or drugs in your system whilst on duty then you are dismissed for gross misconduct.
> 
> Like I said, most people voted yes to protect jobs. obviously there's other concurrent disputes but imagine how pissed off you'd be if we walked out for each of them all on an individual basis.



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...s-sacked-over-alcohol-find-in-staff-room.html



> Some of the 111 cans found in a mess room near Farringdon station were empty, as was a bottle of brandy. But the track workers' union, the RMT, condemned the sackings and indicated that it would consider strike action.



Far be it for me, being a boozehound myself, to condemn drinking - but the fact is they signed a contract saying they could neither drink during working hours nor store booze on premises.

They seem to have broken both those agreements. Cue strike action.


----------



## Citizen66 (Jun 9, 2009)

gabi said:


> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...s-sacked-over-alcohol-find-in-staff-room.html
> 
> 
> 
> ...





> The RMT, which has already voted for industrial action over Tube safety from next week, said the dismissals were unfair. A spokesman added: "*The evidence against our members was purely circumstantial.* We shall fight this all the way."



The reason is in bold, then.

And as for the guy playing squash: As I understand it his doctor had suggested it to him as part of his physio treatment. Like I said, there's two sides to every story.


----------



## 8den (Jun 9, 2009)

Citizen66 said:


> Jesus wept, what year was that?
> 
> And there's two sides to every story. It isn't just the narrative that the management push through the ever obliging anti-union Sub Standard.



And you'll notice I picked the 5 reasons they gave to strike. 

They're not getting a large enough pay rise, and their jobs aren't as secure as they'd like (congratulations everyone is in that boat now) 

They're unhappy workers are dismissed for gross misconduct.


----------



## Utopia (Jun 9, 2009)

Citizen66 said:


> The reason is in bold, then.
> 
> And as for the guy playing squash: As I understand it his doctor had suggested it to him as part of his physio treatment. Like I said, there's two sides to every story.



His doctor probably suggested he kept 'active'...I doubt he specifically said to "play squash".........and active could mean a stroll, or some gardening...maybe a swim...it could also mean *getting off his arse and doing some work!!!!*


----------



## gabi (Jun 9, 2009)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...-leave-exploits-of-insomniac-Tube-driver.html

Seems I was wrong about the back. He was playing squash with a 'sprained ankle'. Apologies.



> On July 3, Mr Barrett, from Hackney, east London, went to see Mrs Signy with his left ankle in a splint, telling her he had to wear it for four months.
> 
> He told her that his physiotherapist had given him some light exercises, including using an exercise bike for 30 minutes twice a week, she alleged.
> 
> ...



Cue strike action.


----------



## ajdown (Jun 9, 2009)

gabi said:


> Far be it for me, being a boozehound myself, to condemn drinking - but the fact is they signed a contract saying they could neither drink during working hours nor store booze on premises.



Wouldn't that be pretty standard and common sense in most jobs now?  I mean, even though it's not in the contract, I can't see how I could possibly get away with my job (which doesn't even involved driving or safety critical work) with having "a few beers during the day" - let alone a job that _does_ involve driving or safety critical work.


----------



## STFC (Jun 9, 2009)

malcolm eggs said:


> God, the bitterness on this thread is fucking incredible.... _i get royally shafted by my job so i don't see why anyone else shouldn't be._
> 
> Fucking hell, the dead will be left unburied.  Anyone who doesn't support a strike is a fucking cunt of the highest order.  Bloody hell gabi, if i ever start a business I'm going to offer you a job.  The neo-lib cock is jammed so far down your throat i reckon i could have you paying me for the privilege of mowing my lawn by the end of it.



You twat.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 9, 2009)

gabi said:


> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...-leave-exploits-of-insomniac-Tube-driver.html
> 
> Seems I was wrong about the back. He was playing squash with a 'sprained ankle'. Apologies.
> 
> Cue strike action.



You forgot to mention what the tribunal came up with - that Chris Barrett was "Unfairly Sacked". He won his case.


----------



## gabi (Jun 9, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> You forgot to mention what the tribunal came up with - that Chris Barrett was "Unfairly Sacked". He won his case.



Sounds like a technicality to me...



> Chris Barrett, a squash player in London, made national news in the UK when he was fired by the London Underground after being spotted coming out of a squash centre despite being on sick leave.
> 
> The London Underground sacked him, maintaining that his squash game proved that he wasn't sick. His firing sparked a strike by fellow Tube workers, and Mr. Barrett filed a claim for unfair dismissal. The strike itself caused controversy, and ended after one day
> 
> ...


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 9, 2009)

I don't give a fuck what it sounds like to you, the tribunal ruled he was unfairly sacked and therefore his union was 100% correct to support him in his case. You fucked yourself with this and demonstrated that you'll use any old shit you can find to attack the RMT in the process, no matter what the actual facts.


----------



## Kanda (Jun 9, 2009)

> He had reported absent on 218 days in the previous five years.



Geezus!! 43.6 sick days a year on average!! 8 weeks!!


----------



## gabi (Jun 9, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> I don't give a fuck what it sounds like to you, the tribunal ruled he was unfairly sacked and therefore his union was 100% correct to support him in his case. You fucked yourself with this and demonstrated that you'll use any old shit you can find to attack the RMT in the process, no matter what the actual facts.



Sorry? Read the above? He escaped on a technicality - TfL fucked it up at the beginning of proceedings. If you're willing to pay for that little blagger to play squash and moonlight for other companies while on sick leave, then great. Maybe it's a career path you could consider yourself.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 9, 2009)

gabi said:


> Sorry? Read the above? He escaped on a technicality - TfL fucked it up at the beginning of proceedings. If you're willing to pay for that little blagger to play squash and moonlight for other companies while on sick leave, then great. Maybe it's a career path you could consider yourself.



...and this sort of bullshit is why workers needs unions. Bosses like gabby saying fuck the rules, i couldn't care less about them and am going to do just what i want - even _after_ a tribunal rules agianst them.


----------



## Utopia (Jun 9, 2009)

gabi said:


> Sorry? Read the above? He escaped on a technicality - TfL fucked it up at the beginning of proceedings. If you're willing to pay for that little blagger to play squash and moonlight for other companies while on sick leave, then great. Maybe it's a career path you could consider yourself.


----------



## Kanda (Jun 9, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> ...and this sort of bullshit is why workers needs unions. Bosses like gabby saying fuck the rules, i couldn't care less about them and am going to do just what i want - even _after_ a tribunal rules agianst them.


 
To be fair, it could have just been a fuck up in disciplinary procedure (badly informed line manager, crap HR communication) rather than a fuck the rules situation. 

8 weeks off a year for 5 years? Plus holidays.. that's bonkers for someone I would guess is physically fit being a squash player..


----------



## STFC (Jun 9, 2009)

Can't believe the bloke had the cheek to take it to a tribunal.

Does anyone know whether LU appealed, and if so what the outcome was?


----------



## Kanda (Jun 9, 2009)

STFC said:


> Can't believe the bloke had the cheek to take it to a tribunal.


 
He has every right to if they fucked up any part of the disciplinary process.


----------



## Citizen66 (Jun 9, 2009)

8den said:


> and their jobs aren't as secure as they'd like (congratulations everyone is in that boat now)



But union members try to protect each others jobs. That _is_ the fucking point.



> Chris Barrett, a squash player in London, made national news in the UK when he was fired by the London Underground after being spotted coming out of a squash centre despite being on sick leave.



Ah 'spotted' indeed. Filmed on camera by company snoops, no less.

Of course the union should take umbridge when stasi-style tactics are being used against the workers.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 9, 2009)

Kanda said:


> To be fair, it could have just been a fuck up in disciplinary procedure (badly informed line manager, crap HR communication) rather than a fuck the rules situation.
> 
> 8 weeks off a year for 5 years? Plus holidays.. that's bonkers for someone I would guess is physically fit being a squash player..



The squash was part _of a recuperation programme devised by a sports injury therapist._ LU didn't release _that_ fact when they accidenatly leaked all sorts of  other personal info to the press designed to blacken his name.


----------



## Kanda (Jun 9, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> The squash was part _of a recuperation programme devised by a sports injury therapist._ LU didn't release _that_ fact when they accidenatly leaked all sorts of other personal info to the press designed to blacken his name.


 
Ah ok.

But it's still a LOT of sick days, what are your thoughts on that?


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 9, 2009)

Couldn't care less - don't know the blokes circumstances or health records -don't want to. Maybe he was sick. Some people are.


----------



## STFC (Jun 9, 2009)

Lazyitis.


----------



## gabi (Jun 9, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> The squash was part _of a recuperation programme devised by a sports injury therapist._


_

It was his GP he hauled before the tribunal, not a 'sports injury therapist'.

Have you ever played squash?  No, I didnt think so. Well let me tell you, it's hard enough when you're physically well. For a chronic insomniac with an ankle so fucked he couldn't even sit down and press 'go' on a tube train, well - maybe he should be looking for a new GP if that's the kind of treatment he prescribed._


----------



## hipipol (Jun 9, 2009)

I couldn't give a flying fuck if they strike instead doing the usual and getting pissed up - the service is so utterly shite I doubt if I'll be able to tell the difference
BUT if they are making over 40k a year then they ought to have some fucking respect for the poor bastards they ferry about - 99% of their passengersearn less than that - well I certainly don't make that, I'm fucking grateful I have my somewhat precarious job - they seemed like molly coddled brats from a bygone era

Fuck em fuck em
Make em take a 25% pay cut - that sounds about right


----------



## Ms T (Jun 9, 2009)

Cloo said:


> They could have at least done it on a week with nice weather so we could all 'work from home' in the garden or park.



Some of us don't have that option.  I have to get to work for 10pm tonight and get home again at 8 tomorrow morning after a bloody night shift.  Which will be fun.


----------



## Citizen66 (Jun 9, 2009)

gabi said:


> It was his GP he hauled before the tribunal, not a 'sports injury therapist'.
> 
> Have you ever played squash?  No, I didnt think so. Well let me tell you, it's hard enough when you're physically well. For a chronic insomniac with an ankle so fucked he couldn't even sit down and press 'go' on a tube train, well - maybe he should be looking for a new GP if that's the kind of treatment he prescribed.



So you're a medical expert are you now, gabi?


----------



## kabbes (Jun 9, 2009)

"99%" earn less?


----------



## Citizen66 (Jun 9, 2009)

Ms T said:


> Some of us don't have that option.  I have to get to work for 10pm tonight and get home again at 8 tomorrow morning after a bloody night shift.  Which will be fun.



Don't the BBC lay on taxis for you?


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 9, 2009)

gabi said:


> It was his GP he hauled before the tribunal, not a 'sports injury therapist'.
> 
> Have you ever played squash?  No, I didnt think so. Well let me tell you, it's hard enough when you're physically well. For a chronic insomniac with an ankle so fucked he couldn't even sit down and press 'go' on a tube train, well - maybe he should be looking for a new GP if that's the kind of treatment he prescribed.



It doesn't matter if his GP appeared before the tribunal that he won or not (and he didn't), that's neither here nor there. He argued in the tribunal that ruled he was unfairly dismissed that he had been playing squash after being recommed it by a sports injury therapist seeing him for another injury - backd up by a letter outlining this from the sports injury therapist _and_ his GP). Please, keep going - you're shit at this.


----------



## gabi (Jun 9, 2009)

Citizen66 said:


> So you're a medical expert are you now, gabi?



Nope. I do play squash tho. I wouldn't with a sprained ankle tho I can assure you. In fact it'd be the last thing I'd be doing if I had any interest in recovering.


----------



## Citizen66 (Jun 9, 2009)

hipipol said:


> I couldn't give a flying fuck if they strike instead doing the usual and getting pissed up - the service is so utterly shite I doubt if I'll be able to tell the difference
> BUT if they are making over 40k a year then they ought to have some fucking respect for the poor bastards they ferry about - 99% of their passengersearn less than that - well I certainly don't make that, I'm fucking grateful I have my somewhat precarious job - they seemed like molly coddled brats from a bygone era
> 
> Fuck em fuck em
> Make em take a 25% pay cut - that sounds about right



The majority of RMT members don't earn what the drivers do; including the back room office staff who's jobs are under threat with forced redundancies.

I never took you as being a reactionary, hipipol.


----------



## gabi (Jun 9, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> It doesn't matter if his GP appeared before the tribunal that he won or not (and he didn't), that's neither here nor there. He argued in the tribunal that ruled he was unfairly dismissed that he had been playing squash after being recommed it by a sports injury therapist seeing him for another injury - backd up by a letter outlining this from the sports injury therapist _and_ his GP). Please, keep going - you're shit at this.



He was playing squash (to a fairly high level) LONG before being signed off for his latest 'setback'.


----------



## Citizen66 (Jun 9, 2009)

gabi said:


> Nope. I do play squash tho. I wouldn't with a sprained ankle tho I can assure you. In fact it'd be the last thing I'd be doing if I had any interest in recovering.



So you're projecting your own feelings on how you speculate you'd feel during different stages of treatment for an injury, then? 

The doctor clearly thought differently. But hey, he's clearly qualified to make those kinds of judgements.


----------



## STFC (Jun 9, 2009)

Ms T said:


> Some of us don't have that option.  I have to get to work for 10pm tonight and get home again at 8 tomorrow morning after a bloody night shift.  Which will be fun.



If you were in a _strong union_ you wouldn't have to work such unreasonable hours. You could probably work whatever hours you wanted. You probably wouldn't even have to work if you didn't fancy it, you could play squash instead.


----------



## Ms T (Jun 9, 2009)

Citizen66 said:


> Don't the BBC lay on taxis for you?



To be fair they do lay on extra shuttle buses during strikes, but only during normal office hours.  I'm hoping to get one to King's Cross in the morning and then the train.  But it's a bit of a bugger when you're so tired you could weep.  

But I was simply pointing out that for lots of people, "working from home" isn't an option - especially low-paid workers like cleaners and shop assistants.


----------



## STFC (Jun 9, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> It doesn't matter if his GP appeared before the tribunal that he won or not (and he didn't), that's neither here nor there. He argued in the tribunal that ruled he was unfairly dismissed that he had been playing squash after being recommed it by a sports injury therapist seeing him for another injury - backd up by a letter outlining this from the sports injury therapist _and_ his GP). Please, keep going - you're shit at this.



But he didn't 'win' the tribunal, did he? It found that he was 75% to blame for his dismissal.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 9, 2009)

gabi said:


> He was playing squash (to a fairly high level) LONG before being signed off for his latest 'setback'.


So? How does that mean that his GP and his sports injury therapist didn't suggest this program for him - as they both testified (via letter) was the case to the tribunal? And on what grounds are you touting your medical credentials above theirs? if nayhting it would make _more sense _for them to suggest he does something squash related.


----------



## MrSki (Jun 9, 2009)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> No. 45 goes to Brixton



The 59 goes to Brixton & a lot quicker than the 45

Via Euston the down to Waterloo Bridge, Kennington then Brixton Road.

Average journey about 45 minutes but around 30 late at night.


----------



## gabi (Jun 9, 2009)

Citizen66 said:


> So you're projecting your own feelings on how you speculate you'd feel during different stages of treatment for an injury, then?
> 
> The doctor clearly thought differently. And hey, he's clearly qualified to make those kinds of judgements.



Ok, do YOU feel this guy was kosher? He finally made it into TfL's offices to explain not turning up to previous appointments a week before being filmed playing squash. He had a splint on his leg. He told them he couldn't walk without it.

7 days later he's on court winning against a former pro squash player. He's clearly one of life's pisstakers, if you're willing to indulge people like that, then fine. I'm not.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 9, 2009)

STFC said:


> But he didn't 'win' the tribunal, did he? It found that he was 75% to blame for his dismissal.



It found he was unfairly dismissed and LU had to pay him 10 grand. That's a victory.


----------



## Ms T (Jun 9, 2009)

STFC said:


> If you were in a _strong union_ you wouldn't have to work such unreasonable hours. You could probably work whatever hours you wanted. You probably wouldn't even have to work if you didn't fancy it, you could play squash instead.



I'm a union rep who voted for strike action a while back over the issue of compulsory redundancies.  In the end the situation got resolved.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 9, 2009)

gabi said:


> Ok, do YOU feel this guy was kosher? He finally made it into TfL's offices to explain not turning up to previous appointments a week before being filmed playing squash. He had a splint on his leg. He told them he couldn't walk without it.
> 
> 7 days later he's on court winning against a former pro squash player. He's clearly one of life's pisstakers, if you're willing to indulge people like that, then fine. I'm not.



What you going to do to him gabby?


----------



## gabi (Jun 9, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> What you going to do to him gabby?



Unfortunately, I can't do anything other than pay for his existence - just as I have to pay for yours. Such is life.


----------



## Ms T (Jun 9, 2009)

MrSki said:


> The 59 goes to Brixton & a lot quicker than the 45
> 
> Via Euston the down to Waterloo Bridge, Kennington then Brixton Road.
> 
> Average journey about 45 minutes but around 30 late at night.



If you're in King's Cross/Euston I'd get the Thameslink to Loughborough Junction or Herne Hill and then walk or get the bus (lots of them) to Brixton.


----------



## Kanda (Jun 9, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> It found he was unfairly dismissed and LU had to pay him 10 grand. That's a victory.


 
eh? How is that a victory?

He lost his job. Fine he got 10k but he is still 75% responsible for his dismissal. 10k in his pocket and potentially fucked up chances of further employment is not a victory.

Or is it a victory cos he 25% ish 'stuck it to the man'

Which at the end of the day was probably a precedural fuck up.


----------



## STFC (Jun 9, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> It found he was unfairly dismissed and LU had to pay him 10 grand. That's a victory.



25% of £32,000 = £8,000. That wouldn't go far, seeing as he was out of work for nine months. Some victory!


----------



## STFC (Jun 9, 2009)

Ms T said:


> I'm a union rep who voted for strike action a while back over the issue of compulsory redundancies.  In the end the situation got resolved.



Communist!


----------



## hipipol (Jun 9, 2009)

kabbes said:


> "99%" earn less?



Well maybe that an exageration!!!

At least in the upper 80% then - it wont affect the high earners as they drive in - lots more porches on the street tomorrow I bet - or get a cab.

It just fucks Joe Public who use Public Transport


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 9, 2009)

Kanda said:


> eh? How is that a victory?
> 
> He lost his job. Fine he got 10k but he is still 75% responsible for his dismissal. 10k in his pocket and potentially fucked up chances of further employment is not a victory.
> 
> ...



His record now reads unfairly dismissed not sacked. How could taking a case to a tribunal and arguing that you've been unfairly dismissed then having the tribunal agreeing that you've been unfairly dimsissed - and getting 10 grand out of it - not be a victory? (He wasn't arguing for reinstatement btw). 

But now we're into realms of made up quoates about 'stuck it to the man' so i expect this go even further downhill.


----------



## Citizen66 (Jun 9, 2009)

gabi said:


> Ok, do YOU feel this guy was kosher? He finally made it into TfL's offices to explain not turning up to previous appointments a week before being filmed playing squash. He had a splint on his leg. He told them he couldn't walk without it.
> 
> 7 days later he's on court winning against a former pro squash player. He's clearly one of life's pisstakers, if you're willing to indulge people like that, then fine. I'm not.



If medical professionals say that they recommended he do a sporting activity as part of his recovery treatment then yes I'd take them at face value. And no, I don't agree with stasi-style tactics being used against workers who are _signed off_ sick. If the doctor was lying about the guy's condition then LUL are at liberty to haul him before a medical tribunal for colluding in fraud. 

Which they didn't.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 9, 2009)

STFC said:


> 25% of £32,000 = £8,000. That wouldn't go far, seeing as he was out of work for nine months. Some victory!



You don't know he was out of work for nine months - it was nine months between his sacking and winning the tribunal. They're different things.


----------



## kabbes (Jun 9, 2009)

hipipol said:


> it wont affect the high earners as they drive in - lots more porches on the street tomorrow I bet - or get a cab.


Not even that, I'd have thought.  Pretty much our whole office is just working from home for the next two days.  Who wants to drive into London when you have a legitimate excuse to work in your pyjamas?



> It just fucks Joe Public who use Public Transport


I think you'll find that in London EVERYBODY uses public transport, though, except may be the very very richest 0.001% who get chauffeur driven.  The CEO of my company gets over £700k a year in basic salary alone, but he still takes the tube because it's by far and away the best way to get around!


----------



## Kanda (Jun 9, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> His record now reads unfairly dismissed not sacked. How could taking a case to a tribunal and arguing that you've been unfairly dismissed then having the tribunal agreeing that you've been unfairly dimsissed - and getting 10 grand out of it - not be a victory? (He wasn't arguing for reinstatement btw).
> 
> But now we're into realms of made up quoates about 'stuck it to the man' so i expect this go even further downhill.


 
Do you really think he's going to get any decent employment in future?

I think I'd rather turn up to work, hold down a job than lose my job with little prospects and 10k in my pocket.

I guess he could change his name.

Don't want the thread to go downhill Butchers, just intrigued about others opinions about this, hadn't heard about it till today.


----------



## cesare (Jun 9, 2009)

STFC said:


> Can't believe the bloke had the cheek to take it to a tribunal.
> 
> Does anyone know whether LU appealed, and if so what the outcome was?



He was unfairly dismissed, he had every right to take it to the ET and the union were right to support him.

If the guy had been completely in the wrong, his contribution would have been set at 100%

I can't find any record of LU appealing.


----------



## Kanda (Jun 9, 2009)

Any idea on what LU fucked up on in the tribunal Cesare?


----------



## Citizen66 (Jun 9, 2009)

hipipol said:


> It just fucks Joe Public who use Public Transport



The only power the union's members have against heavy-handed management is to withdraw their labour.

It's unfortunate that other workers rely on the company in question to get to their jobs but the intention isn't to fuck them over.

It's funny how the level of bile towards the RMT is never spat towards the management from people who are _allegedly_ left-leaning.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 9, 2009)

cesare said:


> He was unfairly dismissed, he had every right to take it to the ET and the union were right to support him.
> 
> If the guy had been completely in the wrong, his contribution would have been set at 100%
> 
> I can't find any record of LU appealing.



They started the process then realised they were fucked and would probably end up in an even worse situation if they went ahead.


----------



## STFC (Jun 9, 2009)

Citizen66 said:


> The only power the union's members have against heavy-handed management is to withdraw their labour.
> 
> It's unfortunate that other workers rely on the company in question to get to their jobs but the intention isn't to fuck them over.
> 
> It's funny how the level of bile towards the RMT is never spat towards the management from people who are _allegedly_ left-leaning.



Who alleged that I'm left-leaning? That's libellous!


----------



## cesare (Jun 9, 2009)

Kanda said:


> Any idea on what LU fucked up on in the tribunal Cesare?



Only what's been reported as ET decisions aren't case law and therefore you can't get the written decisions without a lot of effort. Seems like they sacked him for being dishonest at claiming he was sick, but failed to tell him that so he could answer (or not) that charge. That's just reading between the lines though, and I'm wary of taking the media reports as gospel tbh.


----------



## Citizen66 (Jun 9, 2009)

STFC said:


> Who alleged that I'm left-leaning? That's libellous!



I didn't have you in mind when I said that. 

It does somewhat perplex me, however, why centrists and tories are attracted to urban75. Prevents it from being a nodding circle though, I suppose.


----------



## hipipol (Jun 9, 2009)

Citizen66 said:


> The majority of RMT members don't earn what the drivers do; including the back room office staff who's jobs are under threat with forced redundancies.
> 
> I never took you as being a reactionary, hipipol.



No mate just skint!!!


----------



## London_Calling (Jun 9, 2009)

If people ever wondered how it was Thatcher got elected three times just take a long look at Bob Crow - Trade Unions like him in every industry  were ten a penny in the 70s.


----------



## Oxpecker (Jun 9, 2009)

Anyway - back to the strike...

RMT and LUL were in talks for the best part of 2 days and despite some scurrilous lies fed to the Standard by management were within an inch of settling at 6pm today. In fact the papers had been sent to an ACAS ante-room to be typed up calling off the strike when either lawyers or City Hall intervened and prevented the LUL side from signing. This despite Johnson's assurance earlier that he wanted the whole thing settled. 

Dodgy doings at City Hall I think.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 9, 2009)

London_Calling said:


> If people ever wondered how it was Thatcher got elected three times just take a long look at Bob Crow - Trade Unions like him in every industry  were ten a penny in the 70s.



Can't keep the inner thatcher in for too long can you? Despite your new pretend caring face.


----------



## Kanda (Jun 9, 2009)

Oxpecker said:


> Anyway - back to the strike...
> 
> RMT and LUL were in talks for the best part of 2 days and despite some scurrilous lies fed to the Standard by management were within an inch of settling at 6pm today. In fact the papers had been sent to an ACAS ante-room to be typed up calling off the strike when either lawyers or City Hall intervened and prevented the LUL side from signing. This despite Johnson's assurance earlier that he wanted the whole thing settled.
> 
> Dodgy doings at City Hall I think.



Any idea the reasons?


----------



## Numbers (Jun 9, 2009)

Will there be any running at all?  you know sometimes you do get something.


----------



## Oxpecker (Jun 9, 2009)

Kanda said:


> Any idea the reasons?



Didn't tell us. May be the Mayor's political agenda?


----------



## Oxpecker (Jun 9, 2009)

Numbers said:


> Will there be any running at all?  you know sometimes you do get something.



Difficult to tell - there will be drivers signing on for work on the District and Metropolitan Lines. Safety will be compromised, however, by the lack of maintenance and signalling staff so LUL may decide to run only a partial service. They are also bringing in unlicensed staff to open stations - so just pray that the lift doesn't break down with you in it


----------



## London_Calling (Jun 9, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> Can't keep the inner thatcher in for too long can you? Despite your new pretend caring face.




Nutter!


----------



## Onket (Jun 9, 2009)

Oxpecker said:


> Difficult to tell - there will be drivers signing on for work on the District and Metropolitan Lines. Safety will be compromised, however, by the lack of maintenance and signalling staff so LUL may decide to run only a partial service. They are also bringing in unlicensed staff to open stations - so just pray that the lift doesn't break down with you in it



And of course, a picket line should never be crossed anyway.


----------



## ajdown (Jun 9, 2009)

Onket said:


> And of course, a picket line should never be crossed anyway.



Why?  Especially if you don't support the reason for the strike.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 9, 2009)

Yes _especially then_. Anyway, a walk would do you good aj.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 9, 2009)

ajdown said:


> Why?  Especially *if you don't support the reason for the strike*.



then a mysterious stomach bug strikes you down, trouble at both ends guv.


----------



## Onket (Jun 9, 2009)

ajdown said:


> Why?  Especially if you don't support the reason for the strike.



Respect.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 9, 2009)

Onket said:


> Respect.



The whole and entire point.


----------



## Azrael (Jun 9, 2009)

Roadkill said:


> I don't think tube drivers' pay, pension entitlements and the rest are at all unreasonable.


Agreed. Anyone willing to do a highly skilled job that obliges them to be responsible for a few hundred people's lives and safety on a daily basis deserves a high wage in compensation. 40K or thereabouts is fair. Low, if anything. On the pay grounds, and redundancies, I support the strike. 

I don't know the specifics of these two disputed sackings, but I know there's been technical problems with doors opening on the wrong side on the Victoria, and the management should have got it fixed. 

All this rubbish about greed and the need to make economies though sackings doesn't fit with the £5+ billion of taxpayers' washed down the PPP sewer. (£500 million wasted before contracts were even signed.) If other jobs are unfairly paid, the answer can't be to drag wages down across the board. That's a recipe for exploitation. 

And if for no other reason, I'll be supporting the strike because I'm sick of listening to whingeing from people whose inconvenience is minor. Granted, for some it's severe, but for those who have suburban lines and busses at their disposal, it's just putting them in the position of residents in every other city that doesn't have a metro system.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 9, 2009)

Good man.


----------



## Azrael (Jun 9, 2009)




----------



## Onket (Jun 9, 2009)

I've got the rest of the week to go over this countless times with the people that I am currently representing in a departmental restructure, I'm sure.


----------



## Citizen66 (Jun 9, 2009)

Numbers said:


> Will there be any running at all?  you know sometimes you do get something.



Not all tube workers are in the same union so some will be turning up and signing on for work as oxpecker says. Unfortunately train maintainers are predominantly RMT which means trains won't be getting 'prepped' at the depots so the drivers will probably refuse to take them out on health and safety grounds.


----------



## Oxpecker (Jun 9, 2009)

It's even more convoluted - maintenance workers with Tubelines which maintains JNP (Jubilee, Northern and Piccadilly) are not on strike, but where they share facilities may not cross picket lines. This is why there is a good service on these 3 lines tonight but won't be tomorrow when the drivers strike starts to bite.


----------



## Citizen66 (Jun 9, 2009)

Oxpecker said:


> It's even more convoluted - maintenance workers with Tubelines which maintains JNP (Jubilee, Northern and Piccadilly) are not on strike, but where they share facilities may not cross picket lines. This is why there is a good service on these 3 lines tonight but won't be tomorrow when the drivers strike starts to bite.



What happened on the last RMT walkout when it was just metronet maintainence workers?

I thought they just closed the entire network although I could be wrong. Was tubelines still running?


----------



## Oxpecker (Jun 9, 2009)

I've got a feeling both companies balloted. But you're right the system closed very quickly - virtually every driver filled in a form refusing to work on the grounds of safety.


----------



## Citizen66 (Jun 9, 2009)

Oxpecker said:


> I've got a feeling both companies balloted.



I'm not sure if TubeLines were, the Metronet dispute was about attempting to force people over to Bombardier iirc. Although they may have had their own dispute that coincided with it.


----------



## Oxpecker (Jun 9, 2009)

I remember the ERU being out and they're a Tubeline resource. But I've got a shocking memory so am quite prepared to be proved wrong


----------



## Citizen66 (Jun 10, 2009)

Oxpecker said:


> I remember the ERU being out and they're a Tubeline resource. But I've got a shocking memory so am quite prepared to be proved wrong



My memory is shocking too. But you're right, ERU are tubelines.


----------



## ajdown (Jun 10, 2009)

I rather enjoyed an email I got yesterday from a mailing list I subscribe to about '2 for 1' deals on things in London.



> Given their normal overly helpful, gregarious and world famous reputation of 'going the extra mile' to assist their customers, we were surprised to learn that tube staff have voted to strike again this week. Bit of a contradiction here?
> Perhaps striking whilst Britain is in the worst recession that most of us can remember and demanding a 5% increase for fewer hours work is all down to Attila the Crow, as only Bob's very best buddies are allowed to call him.
> 
> We wouldn't mind betting that ex-employees of LDV, Cheltenham & Gloucester and perhaps even recently out of work MPs might be eager to grab the chance of a cushy little number playing with a grown-up Hornby train set.
> ...


----------



## Kanda (Jun 10, 2009)

Azrael said:


> Agreed. Anyone willing to do a highly skilled job that obliges them to be responsible for a few hundred people's lives and safety on a daily basis deserves a high wage in compensation. 40K or thereabouts is fair. Low, if anything. On the pay grounds, and redundancies, I support the strike.


 
Would you be saying the same if it was the Police striking?


----------



## rennie (Jun 10, 2009)

The northern line is still running.


----------



## Kanda (Jun 10, 2009)

> Northern Line - good service
> District Line - Wimbledon to High Street Kensington
> Jubilee Line - Stanmore to Neasden; Waterloo to Stratford
> Metropolitan Line - Harrow-on-the-Hill to Baker Street
> ...



From BBC


----------



## Belushi (Jun 10, 2009)

rennie said:


> The northern line is still running.



Not everyone is on strike.


----------



## rennie (Jun 10, 2009)

What's the point of a strike if it's not universally observed?


----------



## Kanda (Jun 10, 2009)

Different Unions.


----------



## Zachor (Jun 10, 2009)

ajdown said:


> Why?  Especially if you don't support the reason for the strike.



Exactly.  Why should I support a strike that I disagree with?  I'm certainly not going to strike if the reasoning for the strike is faulty.


----------



## 8den (Jun 10, 2009)

Zachor said:


> Exactly.  Why should I support a strike that I disagree with?  I'm certainly not going to strike if the reasoning for the strike is faulty.



Yes can someone clarify something for me. 

Did LU offer a pay increase?

What specific guarantees did the RMT want about job losses? 

Did the RMT introduce the re-employment of the two sacked workers late in the negotiations? 

The RMT say they want to stop management "bullying". Can they give specific examples of behaviour they'd like management to stop? 

LU maintain that the two sacked workers were sacked because one lied about carrying out safety checks, and the other is facing criminal charges for stealing. What is the RMT's argument about this? 

I'm genuinely curious to hear someone aside from Bob Crow's outline of the union's position.


----------



## Verdis (Jun 10, 2009)




----------



## 8den (Jun 10, 2009)

Verdis said:


>




I'm pleasantly surprised it's not another downfall remix


----------



## ajdown (Jun 10, 2009)

The funny thing of course is that video is two years old... and still the tube workers haven't learnt that nobody appreciates this course of action.


----------



## 8den (Jun 10, 2009)

ajdown said:


> The funny thing of course is that video is two years old... and still the tube workers haven't learnt that nobody appreciates this course of action.



No last time I was sympathetic to the strike, now the RMT seem unreasonable because they're not giving an adequate justifiable reason(s) for the strike.


----------



## ajdown (Jun 10, 2009)

I don't think any essential public service like transport should be run by for-profit companies, but that's a discussion for another thread.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 10, 2009)

8den said:


> No last time I was sympathetic to the strike, now the RMT seem unreasonable because they're not giving an adequate justifiable reason(s) for the strike.





> I used to help run indymedia Ireland and you don't get more left wing than that



Right.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 10, 2009)

Kanda said:


> Would you be saying the same if it was the Police striking?



Or the angels


----------



## 8den (Jun 10, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> Right.



Oh look Butchers is resurrecting another petty squable from years ago, that *never* gets old. 

Butchers, I've asked a couple of simple questions, for the RMT. 

Supporting a strike for the sake of "The Workers United will never be defeated" bollocks is stupid. If several million people are massively inconvenienced because the RMT issued a demand that two workers who where justifiably sacked than the strike is fucking daft. If they weren't sacked on good grounds, I'd be happy to support the strike.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 10, 2009)

8den said:


> Oh look Butchers is resurrecting another petty squable from years ago, that *never* gets old.
> 
> Butchers, I've asked a couple of simple questions, for the RMT.
> 
> Supporting a strike for the sake of "The Workers United will never be defeated" bollocks is stupid. If several million people are massively inconvenienced because the RMT issued a demand that two workers who where justifiably sacked than the strike is fucking daft. If they weren't sacked on good grounds, I'd be happy to support the strike.



Er...no it's not. It standard solidarity. If you can't be botherd to read either the thread or the other info out there and actually don't understand that dispute largwely is about the threat of 1000 redundancies then frankly why should i bother putting you right once more?


----------



## 8den (Jun 10, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> Er...no it's not. It standard solidarity. If you can't be botherd to read either the thread or the other info out there and actually don't understand that dispute largwely is about the threat of 1000 redundancies then frankly why should i bother putting you right once more?



Because you fucking 'tard, I have read the thread, and as I understand one position it's going to be about removing some positions that are overstaffed, some voluntary redundancies, and some contract staff. As I understand it, negotiations broke down last night, at the reintroduction of these two staff.

But since we're bringing up irrelevant shit, how's your cat?


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 10, 2009)

8den said:


> Because you fucking 'tard, I have read the thread, and as I understand one position it's going to be about removing some positions that are overstaffed, some voluntary redundancies, and some contract staff. As I understand it, negotiations broke down last night, at the reintroduction of these two staff.
> 
> But hey, while we're bringing up irrelevant stuff, how's your cat?



'one postion'  If you've read it then why are you ignorant of what its about and pretending it's driven by the union defending two sackings alone? 

Wtf has the health of my cat got to do with it? And tread very fucking carefully here.

edit - oh, you bottled it, removed it then put it back in. Grew your balls back.


----------



## 8den (Jun 10, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> 'one postion'  If you've read it then why are you ignorant of what its about and pretending it's driven by the union defending two sackings alone?



Because, durh, one side is saying the talks broke down, over the other side introducing the issue at the last minute. 




> Wtf has the health of my cat got to do with it?



WTF Has my previous posts got to do anything? You're the cunt bringing up irrelevant shit. If you're going to raise my old post on other issues, I'll talk about your moggy. 



> And tread very fucking carefully here.



Oh and threats are good are they? Well come down to london and carry em out, might give yourself some extra time mind, there's a tube strike on, and it's a tad difficult getting around.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 10, 2009)

8den said:


> Because, durh, one side is saying the talks broke down, over the other side introducing the issue at the last minute.


Wtf has the health of my cat got to do with it? 

Which side i wonder? And the answer will tell you all anyone needs to know



> WTF Has my previous posts got to do anything? You're the cunt bringing up irrelevant shit. If you're going to raise my old post on other issues, I'll talk about your moggy.
> 
> 
> Oh and threats are good are they? Well come down to london and carry em out, might give yourself some extra time mind, there's a tube strike on, and it's a tad difficult getting around.



Your previous post is directly relavent given that you're supporting a right wing position and pretending to be left wing. The health of my cat is not releavent in world. Threats? Dream on, i was actually warning you not to make yourself looking more like a cunt than you are now. Warning ignored. What sort of prick brings up the fact that i'm looking after a dying cat right now to try and fuck off someone you're disagreeing with? You've already lost.


----------



## 8den (Jun 10, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> Wtf has the health of my cat got to do with it?
> 
> 
> 
> Which side i wonder? And the answer will tell you all anyone needs to know



So that'd be "No I can't tell you if talks broke down over the last minute introduction over two sacked workers".

Workers always right. Management always wrong. 

Four legs good. Two legs baaaaaaaaaaadddddd. 

Did you smash your head into the wall while repeating the party mantra?



> Your previous post is directly relavent given that you're supporting a right wing position and pretending to be left wing.



Oh fuck off, nuance is just lost on you. You're like some deluded Spartan Worker, with a reactionary kneejerk reaction. 




> The health of my cat is not releavent in world. Threats? Dream on, i was actually warning you not to make yourself looking more like a cunt than you are now. Warning ignored. What sort of prick brings up the fact that i'm looking after a dying cat right now to try and fuck off someone you're disagreeing with? You've already lost.



Likelyhood, of you giving a flying fuck about how I look? .0001% 

You're a bully butchers plain and simple.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 10, 2009)

Nah, you fucked it up good and proper.


----------



## 8den (Jun 10, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> Nah, you fucked it up good and proper.



Pats you on the head.


"Course you did, butchers, you have this automatic moral authority over all issues, YEESSSS Yes you do........"


----------



## DeadManWalking (Jun 10, 2009)

Tube strike drinking game:

http://853blog.wordpress.com/2009/06/10/its-the-tube-strike-drinking-game/


----------



## rennie (Jun 10, 2009)

So it's not really a strike, more an inconvenience. Why all the bile?


----------



## hipipol (Jun 10, 2009)

ajdown said:


> Why?  Especially if you don't support the reason for the strike.



Because a smack in the face often offends


----------



## Citizen66 (Jun 10, 2009)

rennie said:


> What's the point of a strike if it's not universally observed?





Kanda said:


> Different Unions.



Different companies!


----------



## Citizen66 (Jun 10, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> Which side i wonder?



Uncle Bob's version of events:



> This is my 31st year as a member of this Union and a worker on London Underground and in all that time I have never experienced such dishonesty from any management that I have dealt with. Let me explain to you what really happened at the talks.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Kanda (Jun 10, 2009)

Citizen66 said:


> Different companies!


 
doh! 

cheers


----------



## STFC (Jun 10, 2009)

> Transport Commissioner Peter Hendy today described RMT leadership claims that the Mayor and TfL scuppered talks to avert today's Tube strike as 'utter nonsense', after the RMT leadership walked out at the end of a further day of talks at independent conciliation service ACAS yesterday.
> 
> Despite the start of the strike, Peter Hendy reiterated his call for the strike to be suspended and for talks to resolve the outstanding issues to resume as soon as possible.
> 
> ...



http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/media/newscentre/11979.aspx


----------



## Citizen66 (Jun 10, 2009)

Kanda said:


> doh!
> 
> cheers



Although Metronet went bust and that section is back under LUL, part of the network is still run by Tubelines and Alstom.

It's complicated.


----------



## Citizen66 (Jun 10, 2009)

> Progress has been made on all issues, including pay and the RMT leadership's demand that two members of staff dismissed for serious disciplinary offences be reinstated.
> 
> However, they refused to suspend the strike beyond their own self-imposed deadline.



What an absolute crock of shit. If they were interested in settling the dispute like they're claiming there, they would have hammered it out at the negotiating table a MONTH AGO instead of getting their lawyers to go over the balloting procedure with a fine tooth and comb and subsequently getting it unvalidated due to a technicality.


----------



## Kanda (Jun 10, 2009)

Why aren't you on the picket line Citizen?


----------



## rennie (Jun 10, 2009)

Is there a picket line? I ain't seen one in front of any of the tube stations that I passed this morning.


----------



## Citizen66 (Jun 10, 2009)

Kanda said:


> Why aren't you on the picket line Citizen?



Because the tubes are broken.


----------



## Citizen66 (Jun 10, 2009)

rennie said:


> Is there a picket line? I ain't seen one in front of any of the tube stations that I passed this morning.



There probably will be at major stations (Holborn?) and depots.


----------



## smokedout (Jun 10, 2009)

kings cross is one of the main ones i think


----------



## Kanda (Jun 10, 2009)

Citizen66 said:


> Because the tubes are broken.


 
Ha! Quality. 

thought the main one was Liverpool St.


----------



## Citizen66 (Jun 10, 2009)

Kanda said:


> Ha! Quality.
> 
> thought the main one was Liverpool St.



Holborn is close to LUL offices though so people picket there to wind the managers up.


----------



## Citizen66 (Jun 10, 2009)

According to oxpecker, on the last strike a manager ran over and smacked someone on the picket line at Holborn but it turned out to be not an RMT member but someone from the evening standard!


----------



## gabi (Jun 10, 2009)

Citizen66 said:


> Holborn is close to LUL offices though so people picket there to wind the managers up.



Eh? LU's based at St James Park. Opposite Scotland Yard.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 10, 2009)

Citizen66 said:


> According to oxpecker, on the last strike a manager ran over and smacked someone on the picket line at Holborn but it turned out to be not an RMT member but someone from the evening standard!



We have pics of it somewhere. I believe another sometime poster here was forced to deal with the poor screaming fool.I'll try and find them.


----------



## ajdown (Jun 10, 2009)

Citizen66 said:


> There probably will be at major stations (Holborn?) and depots.



There were a few UI's with a banner at the Bakerloo line entrance on the northern roundabout at Elephant this morning.


----------



## Citizen66 (Jun 10, 2009)

gabi said:


> Eh? LU's based at St James Park. Opposite Scotland Yard.



Please don't try and correct me, Scabby. They have offices in numerous places including High Holborn, St James Park where you mention and The Empress State Building in West Brompton.


----------



## rennie (Jun 10, 2009)

Citizen66 said:


> There probably will be at major stations (Holborn?) and depots.



I passed by Holborn this morning. Nada.


----------



## Citizen66 (Jun 10, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> We have pics of it somewhere. I believe another sometime poster here was forced to deal with the poor screaming fool.I'll try and find them.



I'd appreciate it if you could dig them out!


----------



## Ms T (Jun 10, 2009)

IME (I'm a union rep) NO employer will sign up to no guaranteed compulsory redundancies.  Which means there is a ballot to strike every time they try to make someone compulsorily redundant.  Which usually leads to the situation being resolved.  It's very tedious.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 10, 2009)

Citizen66 said:


> I'd appreciate it if you could dig them out!









full set


----------



## Citizen66 (Jun 10, 2009)

Ms T said:


> IME (I'm a union rep) NO employer will sign up to no guaranteed compulsory redundancies.  Which means there is a ballot to strike every time they try to make someone compulsorily redundant.  Which usually leads to the situation being resolved.  It's very tedious.



It was already in the contract when the PPP disaster was conceived. No compulsory redundancies across all grades. There in black and white. They can't suddenly turn their backs on the agreement just because their cash-cow dream went tits up. 

Cheers for the pics BA.


----------



## Fedayn (Jun 10, 2009)

Zachor said:


> Exactly.  Why should I support a strike that I disagree with?  I'm certainly not going to strike if the reasoning for the strike is faulty.



You're an inveterate picket line crossing scab though, so who fucking cares what you sout? Now fuck off and dribble on somewhere else about your piss stained fantasies about Galloway and Respect.


----------



## gabi (Jun 10, 2009)

Citizen66 said:


> Please don't try and correct me, Scabby. They have offices in numerous places including High Holborn, St James Park where you mention and The Empress State Building in West Brompton.



 Idiot. Go and picket outside Holborn then.

The highest ranking LU official you might encounter there will be a low level IT bod. I'm sure he'll pass on your concerns to senior management the next time he's at St James Park tho


----------



## Roadkill (Jun 10, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> full set





> Things started getting weird at around 7.20am when posh-boy project manager Peter Percival marched in to work passed the strikers and then attacked and independent cameraman from behind. He then came storming back out of the building to scream some more abuse at the bewildered press and picketers.
> 
> No sooner had those present recovered from this surprising turn of events when another individual came storming out of the building and attacked the same cameraman and then piled into a photographer from the Evening Standard (ES). Bizzarely the ES is the fiercest critic of the RMT and regularly dishes out an endless flow of hostile coverage to the union and its industrial action. So the sight of a tube boss attacking an ES employee was kind of unexpected.


----------



## Citizen66 (Jun 10, 2009)

gabi said:


> Idiot. Go and picket outside Holborn then.
> 
> The highest ranking LU official you might encounter there will be a low level IT bod. I'm sure he'll pass on your concerns to senior management the next time he's at St James Park tho



It's where Metronet management work (who are now back under LUL).

Don't try and correct me scabby you'll find you're quite wrong.

Unless, of course, they've all been shipped to where you say now but that'd be pretty quick to happen in the space of a couple of weeks.


----------



## hipipol (Jun 11, 2009)

"posh-boy project manager Peter Percival"

Oh yeah, look at the pic, thats a posh boy is it?
Butchers, roadkill - you really are knee jerk twats. You just want some dumb fuck to gang up on


----------



## Oxpecker (Jun 11, 2009)

hipipol said:


> "posh-boy project manager Peter Percival"
> 
> Oh yeah, look at the pic, thats a posh boy is it?
> Butchers, roadkill - you really are knee jerk twats. You just want some dumb fuck to gang up on



posh boy Peter Percival was the person in the first of the pictures, not the crazy displayed in this thread. And he really was quite posh.


----------



## Roadkill (Jun 11, 2009)

hipipol said:


> "posh-boy project manager Peter Percival"
> 
> Oh yeah, look at the pic, thats a posh boy is it?
> Butchers, roadkill - you really are knee jerk twats. You just want some dumb fuck to gang up on



Actually I was laughing at the idea of a tube manager going for someone from the _Evening Substandard_, since it's invariably on their side.

But hey, don't let that get in the way of your slinging insults about, if that's what makes you feel better.  After all, you've evidently nothing else to contribute.


----------



## hipipol (Jun 12, 2009)

Roadkill said:


> Actually I was laughing at the idea of a tube manager going for someone from the _Evening Substandard_, since it's invariably on their side.
> 
> But hey, don't let that get in the way of your slinging insults about, if that's what makes you feel better.  After all, you've evidently nothing else to contribute.



I bow to your elevated reasoning powers and obvious moral superiority
I am entirely wrong in thinking that vast numbers of posts on this thread are simply the outpourings of love held assumptions  and prejudice - they are in fact closely reasoned agruments in no way driven by any outmoded political agenda

There you are - a non abusive mea culpa.
Feel better?


----------



## Roadkill (Jun 12, 2009)

I've nowt to feel better about, but thanks for asking.


----------



## dennisr (Jun 12, 2009)

Oxpecker said:


> posh boy Peter Percival was the person in the first of the pictures, not the crazy displayed in this thread. And he really was quite posh.



Good to see Stevie's stewarding skills remain useful


----------



## Streathamite (Jun 12, 2009)

gabi said:


> He was playing squash (to a fairly high level) LONG before being signed off for his latest 'setback'.


yes, BUT an accredited specialist _recommended_ it as being therapeutic.
BA - top work on those pix


----------



## Badgers (Jun 17, 2009)

Anyone done this?

https://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/tickets/refunds/industrialaction/default.aspx


----------



## Oxpecker (Jun 17, 2009)

Go for it. Do the RMT a favour


----------



## Monkfish 2.0 (Jun 26, 2009)

gabi said:


> Er, can't be arsed.. isambard appears to be attempting to equate the miners in the 70s with tube drivers today. There's a few subtle differences



Like the Miners work in the dark underground in grubby conditions where as drivers....oh wait....


----------



## Monkfish 2.0 (Jun 26, 2009)

Andy the Don said:


> I have a good mate who is a tube driver on the District Line and according to him Bob Crow is getting support from a small cabal of the workforce. Most of the tube drivers are aslef members and very happy with their pay and conditions with a modicum amount of overtime a tube driver can earn £42-45,000+ pa. Bob Crow gets his support from the tube station staff and if the stations do not open passengers cannot get the trains. Anyhow Tony has texted me saying that as it is not aslef taking industrial action he will just have to book in by phone and then will be booked off to spend the day fishing and on full pay and wished all of us poor commuters a pleasant journey to work for the rest of the week.



Absolute twaddle. Drivers cant do overtime unless its forced upon them (i.e. They are running late and rather than being allowed to leave a train they take it to nearest stabling point like a depot or sidings). Drivers basic is around the £40000 mark give or take a few quid.

ASLEF drivers ran a few trains and crossed a few pickets, certainly were not sent home to go fishing.

Station staff are one of the weakest areas of the underground because if they dont come in managers just open the stations anyway so the strongest areas are drivers or signallers as if trains dont have drivers they dont move, if signals dont clear trains dont move, If tickets dont get sold barriers are left open.

Most drivers on the District are ASLEF however other lines like the Pic are majority RMT.


----------



## Monkfish 2.0 (Jun 26, 2009)

Citizen66 said:


> I have no information regarding the sacked/disciplined colleagues. What I can say that if you're caught with any alcohol or drugs in your system whilst on duty then you are dismissed for gross misconduct.
> 
> Like I said, most people voted yes to protect jobs. obviously there's other concurrent disputes but imagine how pissed off you'd be if we walked out for each of them all on an individual basis.





This is something that not just our union agree with but the other 2 agree too.


----------



## Monkfish 2.0 (Jun 26, 2009)

Ms T said:


> IME (I'm a union rep) NO employer will sign up to no guaranteed compulsory redundancies.  Which means there is a ballot to strike every time they try to make someone compulsorily redundant.  Which usually leads to the situation being resolved.  It's very tedious.



LUL did around 2002 I believe! One of the reasons I supported the strike. My workplace will be shutting and moving within the next few years and our managers have "agreed" everyone will follow their work however whats to stop them going back on that?

Its hard enough trying to get a promotion without people from tescos, B&Q and the forces being recruited into a very difficult job with a high failure rate and experienced and highly qualified staff like myself unable to get the jobs without facing redundancies too.


----------



## Monkfish 2.0 (Jun 26, 2009)

June 15, 2009
Dear Colleague,

LUL CLAIM THEY RAN A GOOD SERVICE – WELL GUESS WHAT THEY DIDN’T

Here are some useful facts. Below is the actual number of trains run (bold) on all lines during the strike against the total each line would normally run.

On a normal day 522 trains are run across the combine. Taken as a percentage, and at mid peak times (0900 and 1800) the best 'service' they ran amounted to 28% on Thursday (0900). However, take away the Northern and Jubilee Lines the best 'service' they could run across the combine was 17% for Wednesday and 19% for Thursday.

Of course the 'service' they ran outside the Jubilee and Northern cannot really be called a service given it amounted to nonsense like Arnos Grove to Cockfosters or High Street Ken to Wimbledon. Even on the Victoria Line where they were desperate to get the whole line running on Thursday (and failed) they could only manage with considerable difficulty, Seven Sisters to Victoria with 10-15 minute headways and key stations like Oxford Circus, Warren St and King's Cross closed for long stretches.


Wednesday 10th June

Bakerloo: 10/32
Central: 12/76
Victoria: 10/37
Waterloo & City: 0/5
Jubilee: 20/50
Northern 46/91
Piccadilly: 3/78
Metropolitan: 12/47
Circle: 0/14
Hammersmith & City: 4/16
District: 14/77

Thursday 11 June

Bakerloo: 10/32
Central: 17/76
Victoria: 12/37
Waterloo & City: 0/5
Jubilee: 25/50
Northern 45/91
Piccadilly: 9/78
Metropolitan: 10/47
Circle: 0/14
Hammersmith & City: 4/16
District: 14/77

As you can see the strike caused massive disruption despite the attempts of the press to portray it otherwise, of course on one hand they were saying trains were running and on the other admitting that there was major disruption that was costing the capital millions of pounds. The truth is they ran a skeleton service at best -which no one used!

On another note I have received a letter of support and fraternal greetings from the General Secretary of the Underground Union in Buenos Aries, Argentina, stating threat they support us in our struggle against LUL. 

It’s ironic that we get support from trade unionists across the globe but some of our sister trade unions in the underground are doing all they can to undermine the dispute. They will, of course be quite happy to benefit from any agreement we reach – sheer hypocrisy.

A meeting was held with your representatives at Unity house today and I will write to you again shortly.

Yours sincerely,

Bob Crow
General Secretary


----------



## Citizen66 (Jun 27, 2009)

I was gonna post that up but assumed everyone was bored of all this now. 

Cheers for the extra info Monkfish.


----------

