# Will you continue using a face mask after 19 July?



## Maggot (Jul 6, 2021)

Lots of outrage at the ending of restrictions on 19 July, especially as the Delta variant is increasing rapidly. Just wondering if Urban will continue to take precautions. 
I will definitely still wear a mask in busy indoor places.


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## cupid_stunt (Jul 6, 2021)

Yes, it's hardly a hardship.


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## Aladdin (Jul 6, 2021)

Yes..and I'm not even in the UK.


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## Doctor Carrot (Jul 6, 2021)

Yes because it has the added bonus of pissing off all the arseholes that have been licking rats throughout the duration.


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## moomoo (Jul 6, 2021)

I work in a busy supermarket. They can take my mask from my cold dead hands.


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## Spymaster (Jul 6, 2021)

Depends where. I'm still going to avoid public transport for a while so that shouldn't be too much of an issue. The only other place I wear one is in shops/supermarkets and I'll likely stop doing that because my specs get steamed up. I'll keep one in my pocket though, to put on if anyone freaks out about it.


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## gentlegreen (Jul 6, 2021)

I've been masked since April 2020.
If mask wearing falls off significantly near me I will start double-masking in enclosed spaces.

61 and fully-vaccinated  with only a "slight" chance of moderate illness from the new variants ?
I will have moved from primarily protecting and showing concern for others towards protecting myself.


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## Thora (Jul 6, 2021)

Don't know.  Probably not.


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## DotCommunist (Jul 6, 2021)

its an excuse to go about semi incognito, I'll be milking it


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## Doctor Carrot (Jul 6, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Depends where. I'm still going to avoid public transport for a while so that shouldn't be too much of an issue. The only other place I wear one is in shops/supermarkets and I'll likely stop doing that because my specs get steamed up. I'll keep one in my pocket though, to put on if anyone freaks out about it.


Put the mask a little bit underneath your spectacles and they won't steam up.


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## miss direct (Jul 6, 2021)

I've said yes but for public transport and shops. I probably won't be putting it on to go to the toilet in the pub - unless the pub is really busy.


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## xenon (Jul 6, 2021)

Probably, shops, public transport, taxis.

No intention to go to any crowded indoor places any time soon so with that caviete will drop the sharade of putting one on inside a pub to walk to the toilet.


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## Sprocket. (Jul 6, 2021)

Yes, when needed. I’m still clinically extremely vulnerable, but I’m so tired of self imprisonment.


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## xenon (Jul 6, 2021)

miss direct said:


> I've said yes but for public transport and shops. I probably won't be putting it on to go to the toilet in the pub - unless the pub is really busy.



Ha, Snap.  Didn't see that before I replied.


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## bimble (Jul 6, 2021)

This might be really negative & paranoid I can't tell:
I think that a lot of places after 19th, particularly the macho type places that for stupid reasons i've mostly been going to lately (builders yards screwfix & and tool hire shops etc), but i reckon loads of other places too, wearing a mask would result in people having a go / telling you to take it off. Its happened already a few times, same people who used to say 'smile'. 
I think that will factor into my choices though i'm a bit embarrassed to admit it.


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## Elpenor (Jul 6, 2021)

Shops and public transport although I’m keen to avoid using public transport.

I am planning a trip to London in a few weeks and a bit apprehensive about needing to use the tube to get from Waterloo to Wood Green.


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## steveo87 (Jul 6, 2021)

I'm so happily boring that I go in much the same way I did before Covid was a thing:
Home-Work-Home again (occasionally the pub, if Liverpool are playing).

That said, I use public transport almost exclusively and I work in care and spend 90% of my time in town/shops, so it would be incredibly foolhardy if I didn't wear a mask.

That said, I whole heartedly agree with 'learning ti live with Covid', just not now.


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## iona (Jul 6, 2021)

bimble said:


> This might be really negative & paranoid I can't tell:
> I think that a lot of places after 19th, particularly the macho type places that for stupid reasons i've mostly been going to lately (builders yards screwfix & and tool hire shops etc), but i reckon loads of other places too, wearing a mask would result in people having a go / telling you to take it off. I think that will factor into my choices though i'm a bit embarrassed to admit it.


Screwfix and Machine Mart have been bang on it with the mask enforcement round here, more than the hospital even! Would be surprised to see it change that much after the 19th.


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## maomao (Jul 6, 2021)

Has anyone else got in the habit of freely mouthing obscenities at people that piss them off in public? I'm afraid I won't be able to stop if the mask comes off and I'll get beaten up.


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## krink (Jul 6, 2021)

I'm going to take a wait and see approach. For me it's not so much the masks but having to sit next to strangers on the buses again - that's going to be weird! I'm definitely still going to use hand sanitiser.


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## lazythursday (Jul 6, 2021)

Have just bought some new masks from here Face masks and face mask filters for your protection | AirPop - the best in Which? tests - as am determined to carry on using public transport because avoiding it earlier in the pandemic had a huge impact on my quality of life, so want to protect myself the best I can. Otherwise though, I will carry on wearing mask in the few shops I go to and otherwise will keep outside, until case rates drop to a level I'm comfortable with.


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## ElizabethofYork (Jul 6, 2021)

I'll wear it in the shopping centre and on public transport.  I don't really go anywhere else that gets crowded.


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## flypanam (Jul 6, 2021)

Yeah, at work, on transport and shopping. And to piss off covidiots.


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## bimble (Jul 6, 2021)

iona said:


> Screwfix and Machine Mart have been bang on it with the mask enforcement round here, more than the hospital even! Would be surprised to see it change that much after the 19th.


Here it started off like that but has totally changed more recently. Maybe it’s really local phenomenon down to personalities in branch idk.


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## Steel Icarus (Jul 6, 2021)

Yep. Cos it's not difficult and potentially stops me spreading COVID to someone vulnerable. I might never stop doing it in shops.


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## marty21 (Jul 6, 2021)

Probably not , I don't have an issue with wearing them but if it isn't mandatory,  I will probably stop.


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## LDC (Jul 6, 2021)

In crowded public transport and shops and taxis then yes, but what might change is quickly popping into shops where now I always do, but when things change maybe I won't be so strict. Work I have to wear one anyway as it's healthcare. Have never worn one outside unless moving quickly between indoor places. Stopped the sanitizing hands things a couple of months ago.


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## kalidarkone (Jul 6, 2021)

Yes- in shops, public transport etc and when I go for a dance, and a gig which I will be doing by the end of July.
Have never worn one outside, but would do if very crowded.


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## souljacker (Jul 6, 2021)

I think it will be a bit pointless as the majority of people won't bother. I'll probably still wear one on the tube but won't anywhere else.


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## miss direct (Jul 6, 2021)

Working with people from around the world (online) has given me an interesting perspective. The Russians and Ukrainians have never really worn masks and many have been gallivanting around the world, going to concerts and big parties, throughout this whole period. And look at the rates there...697 deaths on Saturday. 

I also have an Italian student who did *not *contract covid when the others in his workplace did, because he was wearing a decent mask. That is my little bit of evidence that wearing a well fitting mask can protect you.


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## Leafster (Jul 6, 2021)

I'll carry on wearing a mask in shops etc. I've managed to avoid using public transport since the pandemic began but if I had to, I'd wear a mask when travelling this way. 

It'll be interesting to see what happens with the removal of the one metre plus rule. Nearly everyone I cross paths with outside adheres to it now. It seems a sensible precaution when cases are still too high for my liking and predicted to increase but maybe others will see it differently.


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## wayward bob (Jul 6, 2021)

will almost def still be law in wales anyway.


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## Plumdaff (Jul 6, 2021)

I think we'll still be mandated to do so here in Wales for some time longer, which I agree with.

That said, some people here already don't wear them, but I won't be one of them. It seems like such a minor inconvenience for such a potentially major improvement in public health, and I'd hoped we might become culturally very comfortable with wearing masks on public transport, especially in the winter months, like places in Asia routinely do. It doesn't seem to be the case though.


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## wayward bob (Jul 6, 2021)

older kids still wearing them in school too


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## dessiato (Jul 6, 2021)

We don’t have to wear masks except indoors or busy places. Nonetheless I still wear mine. Better safe than sorry.


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## moomoo (Jul 6, 2021)

maomao said:


> Has anyone else got in the habit of freely mouthing obscenities at people that piss them off in public? I'm afraid I won't be able to stop if the mask comes off and I'll get beaten up.



This is one of the reasons why I shall continue to wear my mask at work.


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## beesonthewhatnow (Jul 6, 2021)

Yes, and I’ll still be doing my best to avoid busy places/areas, because anyone thinking opening everything back up on the 19th is a good idea must be fucking insane.


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## Glitter (Jul 6, 2021)

Honestly, probably not. Maybe on the train if I have to go back into work but 9/10 times I forget and have to go back for one.

Tbh I only really wear one in shops as I don’t go anywhere else that I might need one and I’ll never remember if I’m not getting sent back for it.


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## gentlegreen (Jul 6, 2021)

I look 10 years younger wearing mine.  

I made a point of wearing mine all the way back from the shops just now.


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## Spymaster (Jul 6, 2021)

gentlegreen said:


> I look 10 years younger wearing mine.


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## marshall (Jul 6, 2021)

Absolutely. It's become second nature to me in shops and on public transport. Not exactly a hardship is it? Same with carrying a hand sanitiser, can't believe I never used one before.


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## Voley (Jul 6, 2021)

Yep. Will also still be avoiding busy places indoors for the foreseeable future too. 

Really uneasy about all the restrictions being ditched on the 19th. I wouldn't be at all surprised by another Autumn lockdown. 

I'm really struggling with the logic behind ditching masks in particular. It doesn't affect the economy, we're all used to wearing them and it reduces the transmission that's taking off worryingly right now. Only reason is to appease the assholes in his own party. Fucked right off about it if I'm honest - my parents are both immuno-compromised and are considering staying home again because of it.


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## flypanam (Jul 6, 2021)

gentlegreen said:


> I look 10 years younger wearing mine.


Makes me more handsome too.


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## editor (Jul 6, 2021)

I'll certainly still carry one around with me and put it on where it feels like the right thing to do, risk-wise. But probably not if I'm going to the loo in an empty pub.


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## neonwilderness (Jul 6, 2021)

I'll probably continue in some places, shops, public transport, etc. Other places will depend on how busy/safe it feels.



Elpenor said:


> I am planning a trip to London in a few weeks and a bit apprehensive about needing to use the tube to get from Waterloo to Wood Green.


I'm travelling down to London a few days after the restrictions are lifted and am already feeling a bit  about it.


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## MickiQ (Jul 6, 2021)

I don't like wearing masks and would prefer not too but I have dutifully worn one throughout when I am supposed to. I will probably play it by ear for a while at least and take one with me and then decide whether I feel I need one when I get to where I am going.I haven't used public transport since February last year and aren't likely to any time soon. I hardly go to shops much these days either.
I can't imagine that mask wearing generally is going to survive much as a thing past 20th July though


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## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Jul 6, 2021)

editor said:


> I'll certainly still carry one around with me and put it on where it feels like the right thing to do, risk-wise. But probably not if I'm going to the loo in an empty pub.



Yes this. I'll wear one to the shops etc. It has felt a bit pointless wearing one for five seconds to walk between a pub door and a table though, don't think I'll do that any more.


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## Steel Icarus (Jul 6, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> I can't imagine that mask wearing generally is going to survive much as a thing past 20th July though


I think you might be surprised.


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## The39thStep (Jul 6, 2021)

Still compulsory over here and likely to be until August/September.


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## Badgers (Jul 6, 2021)

100% yes in all scenarios


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## killer b (Jul 6, 2021)

Probably. I think there's a good chance of a fairly swift u-turn on all this stuff anyway.


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## Sue (Jul 6, 2021)

We were chatting about this on a work call earlier. The overwhelming consensus was that ditching everything on the 19th is madness and they'll be backpedalling within weeks.

I'm not really planning on changing anything tbh so will keep on with the masks for the forseeable,


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## beesonthewhatnow (Jul 6, 2021)

To anyone saying they won’t anymore, it’s a choice, you’ll see if you feel safe etc - retail workers don’t get that choice, they’re going to have face you whatever.

Wear a fucking mask you selfish pricks.


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## Espresso (Jul 6, 2021)

I will keep on wearing mine, no question.


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## Orang Utan (Jul 6, 2021)

no public poll?


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## Mr Retro (Jul 6, 2021)

I’m so relieved and glad it’s being left up to individuals to asses and make their own decisions based on what they perceive as the risk. I believe should have been policy through all this. I won’t wear a mask after 19th. I will respect those who decide they still want to.


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## gentlegreen (Jul 6, 2021)

At least two of the shelf-stackers in my local Aldi are already not wearing masks - 30-somethings I'm guessing, - so borderline in terms of vaccination.


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## planetgeli (Jul 6, 2021)

Yes I will. I too hoped, or hope, for an Asian like cultural shift on this.

And I still get angry thinking back to that back-to-school guidance in September from the Welsh government that told me face masks had little value, were absolutely bottom of the pile when it came to protection, and that I would be told to remove it at the gates if I came to school in one.


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## LDC (Jul 6, 2021)

Mr Retro said:


> I’m so relieved and glad it’s being left up to individuals to asses and make their own decisions based on what they perceive as the risk. I believe should have been policy through all this. I won’t wear a mask after 19th. I will respect those who decide they still want to.



FFS, you thick prick. Why is it so complicated for you to understand that just making things a 'personal choice' in a pandemic is not a fair, sensible, or caring position? It's one thing to agree with the easing now, but to say it should have been personal choice all the way through this is stunningly moronic.


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## gentlegreen (Jul 6, 2021)

Thinking about it, having left the festering virology experiment where I used to work (where I was resigned to getting flattened once or twice a year until eventually two infections kept me off work for weeks,) , I will be grateful for the precedent set by Covid so I can wear a mask in supermarkets for a long time into the future.
If anarchy prevails, I will get my flu jab this winter.


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## Poot (Jul 6, 2021)

Voley said:


> Yep. Will also still be avoiding busy places indoors for the foreseeable future too.
> 
> Really uneasy about all the restrictions being ditched on the 19th. I wouldn't be at all surprised by another Autumn lockdown.
> 
> I'm really struggling with the logic behind ditching masks in particular. It doesn't affect the economy, we're all used to wearing them and it reduces the transmission that's taking off worryingly right now. Only reason is to appease the assholes in his own party. Fucked right off about it if I'm honest - my parents are both immuno-compromised and are considering staying home again because of it.


I firmly believe that most people are good and want to do what they perceive to be right, but that this makes the people in charge very confused, bless them. They assume we all miss Glyndebourne and multiple extra marital affairs and couldnt give a fuck about anyone else. Tories are gonna Tory.


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## Orang Utan (Jul 6, 2021)

Mr Retro said:


> I’m so relieved and glad it’s being left up to individuals to asses and make their own decisions based on what they perceive as the risk. I believe should have been policy through all this. I won’t wear a mask after 19th. I will respect those who decide they still want to.


fuck you too


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## beesonthewhatnow (Jul 6, 2021)

Mr Retro said:


> I’m so relieved and glad it’s being left up to individuals to asses and make their own decisions based on what they perceive as the risk. I believe should have been policy through all this. I won’t wear a mask after 19th. I will respect those who decide they still want to.


It’s.

Not.

Your.

Risk.


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## Orang Utan (Jul 6, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> no public poll?


need more data for my shitlist


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## LDC (Jul 6, 2021)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> It’s.
> 
> Not.
> 
> ...



I think he must have made some heroic efforts to stay that ignorant at this point in the pandemic tbf, even little kids I know get that masks are more for other people's protection rather than the wearers. Maybe Mr Retro has developed a special skill where he can assess someone's clinical vulnerability by looking at them, and then decide whether to wear a mask near them or not?


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## killer b (Jul 6, 2021)

fwiw I reckon there'll be a difference between people's intentions in the poll now and people's actions after the 19th - I remember last summer when pubs were opening up posters going from claiming they weren't going to the pub for the rest of the year to posting pictures of their first pint on facebook in under 24 hours. 

Also reckon there'll  be a BIG difference between different indoor places - supermarkets will probably see plenty of masks, convenience stores a lot less, and pubs and the like will see close to zero.


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## elbows (Jul 6, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> I think he must have made some heroic efforts to stay that ignorant at this point in the pandemic tbf, even little kids I know get that masks are more for other people's protection rather than the wearers. Maybe Mr Retro has developed a special skill where he can assess someone's clinical vulnerability by looking at them, and then decide whether to wear a mask near them or not?


I checked his track record and he is from the school of talking absolute shit last September, mocking the predictions of 50,000 cases and hundreds of deaths per day by October.

Funnily enough despite saying he would come back that October to see how the real numbers turned out, he instead kept his head down whilst we experienced a really terrible second wave. Not really surprising since although the numbers at that exact moment in October did not neatly match exact predictions, the wave was horrific and offered him absolutely no opportunities to gloat or demonstrate that his feeble views were valid.

       #18,789


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## Dystopiary (Jul 6, 2021)

To those who won't and are saying it's a personal choice, please remember for loads of people it's not about choice and you wearing a mask could be the difference between life and death, or compromised health and not. It's just a piece of cloth, it's nothing compared to the restrictions you're helping to place on others. 

Plus, it might encourage others to bother.


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## Kevbad the Bad (Jul 6, 2021)

Mr Retro said:


> I’m so relieved and glad it’s being left up to individuals to asses and make their own decisions based on what they perceive as the risk. I believe should have been policy through all this. I won’t wear a mask after 19th. I will respect those who decide they still want to.


At my son's hospital there are people who still maintain that the whole thing is a hoax. I kid you not. These aren't front-line staff, but cleaners or white-collar workers. I don't and won't respect their views at all. They have a right to believe any old crap, but if their actions harm other people then I will just regard them as stupid, ignorant and/or selfish, or a mixture of all three. Which category do you come under?


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## Dystopiary (Jul 6, 2021)

I'm gonna just say it, toxic masculinity is fucking dangerous.


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## farmerbarleymow (Jul 6, 2021)

I'll still wear a mask when I'm out, which nowadays isn't very often anyway.  No big deal and reduces the risk of me catching a variant that can dodge the vaccine.


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## cupid_stunt (Jul 6, 2021)

Mr Retro said:


> I’m so relieved and glad it’s being left up to individuals to asses and make their own decisions based on what they perceive as the risk.



Yeah, it's so easy for Joe Public to perceive the risk from invisible virus aerosols floating in the air.


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## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Jul 6, 2021)

killer b said:


> fwiw I reckon there'll be a difference between people's intentions in the poll now and people's actions after the 19th - I remember last summer when pubs were opening up posters going from claiming they weren't going to the pub for the rest of the year to posting pictures of their first pint on facebook in under 24 hours.
> 
> Also reckon there'll  be a BIG difference between different indoor places - supermarkets will probably see plenty of masks, convenience stores a lot less, and pubs and the like will see close to zero.



I think to a very large degree it's about norms isn't it. If someone sees everyone else with a mask then they feel that pressure to do so too. if no-on has one not only do they not feel that but it can even go the other way - they feel like the odd one out. Either way people take their cues from others around them.

Which is partly why the whole 'personal responsibility, make your own choice' thing doesn't work.


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## Aladdin (Jul 6, 2021)

DotCommunist said:


> its an excuse to go about semi incognito, I'll be milking it



I can relate to this. 
I'd happilly wear a mask for another few years. No bother. Keep all those flus and colds away .
Bedore covid I picked up every bloody bug going where I work. I've no doubt that wearing a mask and socially distancing would have saved me from at least 3 bouts of pneumonia and 2 or 3 bouts of pleurisy.


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## Dystopiary (Jul 6, 2021)

bimble said:


> This might be really negative & paranoid I can't tell:
> I think that a lot of places after 19th, particularly the macho type places that for stupid reasons i've mostly been going to lately (builders yards screwfix & and tool hire shops etc), but i reckon loads of other places too, wearing a mask would result in people having a go / telling you to take it off. Its happened already a few times, same people who used to say 'smile'.
> I think that will factor into my choices though i'm a bit embarrassed to admit it.


You're not being paranoid, they're being ignorant. They'd rather put their own and others' safety on the line than risk their mates taking the piss a bit for doing the right thing. And being like that with you they're being macho gaslighting dickheads as well.


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## Mr Retro (Jul 6, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper if you (or anybody else) can't debate & disagree without insults I will put you on ignore.

The evidence that wearing a mask does anything to protect the wearer or those they are around is not clear. I detest them, I find them oppressive and their removal of dignity and individualism really effects me. Therefore in the absence of evidence I will not wear one.

Individual freedoms have been entirely removed by government in the last 16 months. In their fear, purposely engendered by scientists, government and MSM I think many people have been quite comfortable with this totalitarianism. Now we are getting freedoms back, I believe the shrieking about masks and the common good in the last day or so on social medi is somewhere to direct the fear. I understand this and I think masks are a comfort for people. I will respect and not judge anybody who still wants to wear a mask while exercising my right not to.


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## elbows (Jul 6, 2021)

Fuck off you clueless threat to public health. People incapable of recognising a bad pandemic when they see one are deadly scum.


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## killer b (Jul 6, 2021)

Mr Retro said:


> their removal of dignity and individualism really effects me.


how?


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## elbows (Jul 6, 2021)

I'm not sure how much personal dignity can possibly be left to preserve if you are the sort of shit who denied there would be a horrible second wave that then went on to kill tens of thousands of people, more than the first wave by some measures.


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## Steel Icarus (Jul 6, 2021)

Jesus wept. Totalitarianism is it. In b4 _muzzles_


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## killer b (Jul 6, 2021)

I guess there is a subtle alienating effect of not being able to see people smiling and whatnot, but there's a more significant alienating effect of a substantial number of people around you thinking you don't give a shit about their health.


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## planetgeli (Jul 6, 2021)

Mr Retro said:


> LynnDoyleCooper if you (or anybody else) can't debate & disagree without insults I will put you on ignore.
> 
> The evidence that wearing a mask does anything to protect the wearer or those they are around is not clear. I detest them, I find them oppressive and their removal of dignity and individualism really effects me. Therefore in the absence of evidence I will not wear one.
> 
> Individual freedoms have been entirely removed by government in the last 16 months. In their fear, purposely engendered by scientists, government and MSM I think many people have been quite comfortable with this totalitarianism. Now we are getting freedoms back, I believe the shrieking about masks and the common good in the last day or so on social medi is somewhere to direct the fear. I understand this and I think masks are a comfort for people. I will respect and not judge anybody who still wants to wear a mask while exercising my right not to.


Wanker


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## cupid_stunt (Jul 6, 2021)

Mr Retro said:


> The evidence that wearing a mask does anything to protect the wearer or those they are around is not clear.



Yes it is, but maybe not if your source is the David Icke forum or similar.


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## Mr Retro (Jul 6, 2021)

elbows said:


> Fuck off you clueless threat to public health. People incapable of recognising a bad pandemic when they see one are deadly scum.


On ignore


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## Mr Retro (Jul 6, 2021)

planetgeli said:


> Wanker


on ignore


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## Dr. Furface (Jul 6, 2021)

It's taken me all this time to remember to take one out with me and to get used to wearing one so I'm damned if I'm stopping now!


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## Shippou-Sensei (Jul 6, 2021)

I wonder if anti mask people also shun condoms?

Also know as willymasks.


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## Pickman's model (Jul 6, 2021)

Mr Retro said:


> LynnDoyleCooper if you (or anybody else) can't debate & disagree without insults I will put you on ignore.
> 
> The evidence that wearing a mask does anything to protect the wearer or those they are around is not clear. I detest them, I find them oppressive and their removal of dignity and individualism really effects me. Therefore in the absence of evidence I will not wear one.
> 
> Individual freedoms have been entirely removed by government in the last 16 months. In their fear, purposely engendered by scientists, government and MSM I think many people have been quite comfortable with this totalitarianism. Now we are getting freedoms back, I believe the shrieking about masks and the common good in the last day or so on social medi is somewhere to direct the fear. I understand this and I think masks are a comfort for people. I will respect and not judge anybody who still wants to wear a mask while exercising my right not to.


tbh the evidence is only unclear if you don't engage brain and only listen to fools.

you know the sort of thing they say, the virus is so little it can get through a mask. but the virus isn't floating freely, it's on a bit of spit. that getting through the mask is a bit more tricky, like trying to get into a pub wearing a crinoline. so when two people wear a mask it becomes doubly difficult for the virus to get through both.

but have it your way and if i'm not on your ignore list already please could you add me so i'm in good company


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## xenon (Jul 6, 2021)

Mr Retro said:


> LynnDoyleCooper if you (or anybody else) can't debate & disagree without insults I will put you on ignore.
> 
> The evidence that wearing a mask does anything to protect the wearer or those they are around is not clear. I detest them, I find them oppressive and their removal of dignity and individualism really effects me. Therefore in the absence of evidence I will not wear one.
> 
> Individual freedoms have been entirely removed by government in the last 16 months. In their fear, purposely engendered by scientists, government and MSM I think many people have been quite comfortable with this totalitarianism. Now we are getting freedoms back, I believe the shrieking about masks and the common good in the last day or so on social medi is somewhere to direct the fear. I understand this and I think masks are a comfort for people. I will respect and not judge anybody who still wants to wear a mask while exercising my right not to.



Totalitarianism? You berk. 

I don't like wearing a mask, most people don't. I'm also not really convinced the standard masks do all that much to protect people either. However, when it became mandatory I started wearing one, reluctantly at first, because if there's a small percentage chance it protects other peple or even me, it seemed obnoxiously selfish not to, given the minor inconvenience.

Also have been fine to wear one to signal to shopkeepers, taxi drivers, people who are dealing with multitudes of strangers every day, that I don't want them to feel uncomfortable, having to ask me to  put a mask on. I see it as I'm in their space, so respect house rules. 

This probably makes me a raging communist fanatic or something 


I'll be glad to dispense with wearing them altogether but this does not seem the right time.


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## elbows (Jul 6, 2021)

A new form of retro which involves pining for the good old days of lower life expectancy.


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## Mr Retro (Jul 6, 2021)

cupid_stunt said:


> Yes it is, but maybe not if your source is the David Icke forum or similar.


This is just a lazy reply


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## elbows (Jul 6, 2021)

Mr Retro said:


> This is just a lazy reply


Not as lazy as grandstanding that you'd see us all last October and then doing a runner because reality didnt turn out to match your delusions.


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## Pickman's model (Jul 6, 2021)

Mr Retro said:


> LynnDoyleCooper if you (or anybody else) can't debate & disagree without insults I will put you on ignore.
> 
> *(1)*_The evidence that wearing a mask does anything to protect the wearer or those they are around is not clear._ I detest them, I find them oppressive and their removal of dignity and individualism really effects me. *(2)* _Therefore in the absence of evidence I will not wear one._
> 
> Individual freedoms have been entirely removed by government in the last 16 months. In their fear, purposely engendered by scientists, government and MSM I think many people have been quite comfortable with this totalitarianism. Now we are getting freedoms back, I believe the shrieking about masks and the common good in the last day or so on social medi is somewhere to direct the fear. I understand this and I think masks are a comfort for people. I will respect and not judge anybody who still wants to wear a mask while exercising my right not to.


sorry, rereading your post i see you can't debate. you can barely think.

you say (1) the evidence is not clear, then just a few words later, you say (2) there's no evidence. but you've already admitted there's evidence but (according to you) it is equivocal.

but here's some evidence for you An evidence review of face masks against COVID-19

Effectiveness of Mask Wearing to Control Community Spread of SARS-CoV-2 and some more

but i don't think you have the wherewithal to understand the points being made


----------



## bimble (Jul 6, 2021)

Mr Retro said:


> In their fear, purposely engendered by scientists, government and MSM I think many people have been quite comfortable with this totalitarianism.


I'm curious only about this bit.
Why did scientists, the governments of the world & the media conspire, _purposely,_ to engender fear, in your opinion? What was their aim?


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 6, 2021)

Mr Retro said:


> LynnDoyleCooper if you (or anybody else) can't debate & disagree without insults I will put you on ignore.
> 
> The evidence that wearing a mask does anything to protect the wearer or those they are around is not clear. I detest them, I find them oppressive and their removal of dignity and individualism really effects me. Therefore in the absence of evidence I will not wear one.
> 
> Individual freedoms have been entirely removed by government in the last 16 months. In their fear, purposely engendered by scientists, government and MSM I think many people have been quite comfortable with this totalitarianism. Now we are getting freedoms back, I believe the shrieking about masks and the common good in the last day or so on social medi is somewhere to direct the fear. I understand this and I think masks are a comfort for people. I will respect and not judge anybody who still wants to wear a mask while exercising my right not to.


replace the word mask with pants and observe your lunacy


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 6, 2021)

bimble said:


> I'm curious only about this bit.
> Why did scientists, the governments of the world & the media conspire, _purposely,_ to engender fear, in your opinion? What was their aim?


never mind the why, how does he suggest they actually managed it, when there's never been such a display of fuckwittery on a global scale as we've see over the past eighteen months


----------



## killer b (Jul 6, 2021)

You'd have thought a government intent on totalitarianism might be a bit less confused in their messaging if masks are some key route to the boot on the neck. And why is the same government so keen on removing the requirement to wear a mask now? Have they given up on the totalitarianism thing?


----------



## xenon (Jul 6, 2021)

bimble said:


> I'm curious only about this bit.
> Why did scientists, the governments of the world & the media conspire, _purposely,_ to engender fear, in your opinion? What was their aim?




Yes. I don't expect an answer but this Baffling line of thinking is popular with... pandemic sceptics.


----------



## bimble (Jul 6, 2021)

It was a bit shit anyway, our Totalitarianism. I grew up listening to tales of proper repressive regime stuff and really don't think i'm going to impress anyone with my stories of having lived through the great repression when i .. couldn't go to the pub for quite long stretches of time.


----------



## elbows (Jul 6, 2021)

bimble said:


> I'm curious only about this bit.
> Why did scientists, the governments of the world & the media conspire, _purposely,_ to engender fear, in your opinion? What was their aim?


Perhaps they sought to stop the truth-seekers from reproducing, via their feeble masculinity not being able to maintain an erection if they catch sight of themselves wearing a mask in the mirror. Never mind the lack of reproductive capacity of the mirror or the fleshlight.


----------



## killer b (Jul 6, 2021)

This nothing bit of freedom was announced, not coincidentally, on the same day some actual totalitarian legislation was passed in parliament. Bellends get to celebrate freedom as their actual freedoms are removed. Great stuff.


----------



## elbows (Jul 6, 2021)

Scrotalitarians.


----------



## Yossarian (Jul 6, 2021)

I made masks mandatory for me In shops etc. in April last year and I might lift the rule later this year if conditions allow, I don't give two shits if the useless government lifts its own rules sooner.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Jul 6, 2021)

Mr Retro said:


> This is just a lazy reply



That's a fucking cheek, coming from you, who posts lazy fact-free ignorant shite.

This Sky News article links to a number of peer-reviewed scientific studies that say how effective face masks can be.



> *According to a number of laboratory tests and multiple studies, *the main value from wearing face masks is that they block up to 80% of these droplets from escaping into the air. They may also prevent about 50% of droplets from being inhaled too.











						COVID-19: Do face masks work? Here is what scientific studies say
					

The evidence overwhelmingly suggests that wearing a mask reduced transmissions of COVID-19. Here are the studies that prove it.




					news.sky.com


----------



## JuanTwoThree (Jul 6, 2021)

I haven't had a cold this winter, I usually catch three or four from kids,  and it seems that there was little or no flu around too. I think I'll be wearing my lucky mask on busses, in airports, street-markets and so on. And keeping snotty children at arm's length and then some.


----------



## Saul Goodman (Jul 6, 2021)

I'm never leaving the house without one again. Facial recognition software can go fuck itself.


----------



## Mr Retro (Jul 6, 2021)

bimble said:


> I'm curious only about this bit.
> Why did scientists, the governments of the world & the media conspire, _purposely,_ to engender fear, in your opinion? What was their aim?


It's a good question, I don't know why they did this. I reckon my chance of dying from Covid-19 is about 1 in 8500 _without_ being fully vaccinated like I am. I think about 1 in every 100 deaths now is a Covid death. But the way Covid-19 it has dominated our lives it would seem peoples perception of their risk of death is far far greater than it actually is. So why were people purposefully scared like they were? I just ordered "A State of Fear: How the UK government weaponised fear during the Covid-19 pandemic". I'll be interested to read what it says


----------



## Dystopiary (Jul 6, 2021)

Please wear a mask. And please pass this on.


----------



## Aladdin (Jul 6, 2021)

As an aside...and to show just how effective an n95 mask can be...
I went for a drive in the countryside with the brother. 
He wore an n95 mask for the journey. 
I wore a blue surgical 3 layer whatever mask.

Cue silage...for about 20km.

Poooooooh...urgh...yuck...I got all the stink.

Brother? 
Nothing. Not a whiff. 

N95 masks do the job!!


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 6, 2021)

Sugar Kane said:


> As an aside...and to show just how effective an n95 mask can be...
> I went for a drive in the countryside with the brother.
> He wore an n95 mask for the journey.
> I wore a blue surgical 3 layer whatever mask.
> ...


hard to get individual looking ones mind. some designers are missing out on oodles of cash


----------



## elbows (Jul 6, 2021)

Mr Retro said:


> It's a good question, I don't know why they did this. I reckon my chance of dying from Covid-19 is about 1 in 8500 _without_ being fully vaccinated like I am. I think about 1 in every 100 deaths now is a Covid death. But the way Covid-19 it has dominated our lives it would seem peoples perception of their risk of death is far far greater than it actually is. So why were people purposefully scared like they were? I just ordered "A State of Fear: How the UK government weaponised fear during the Covid-19 pandemic". I'll be interested to read what it says


Even if you have me on ignore now I'll continue to respond to this shit.

Death is not the only consequence. A sane society is a society that treats with fear the prospect that they might need urgent medical care but be unable to receive it because the hospitals have been clogged up with covid patients, destroying the ability to offer routine services.

Ultimately there is a broad range of death levels that the system can cope with, governments can turn something of a blind eye to that. What they cannot do is let healthcare systems collapse, because this also collapses modern economies.

If our government had stuck to its original 'let it rip' plan despite this, then we'd still have ended up with a messier equivalent to lockdown because people would have adjusted their beheviour to create something broadly equivalent to lockdown.


----------



## Mr Retro (Jul 6, 2021)

cupid_stunt said:


> That's a fucking cheek, coming from you, who posts lazy fact-free ignorant shite.
> 
> This Sky News article links to a number of peer-reviewed scientific studies that say how effective face masks can be.
> 
> ...


Stopped reading after this:

*"Real-world studies are a bit harder to come by, but the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) has highlighted a few. In one high-exposure event, two hair stylists - who were displaying symptoms - were found to have interacted with 139 clients during an eight-day period."*

When I realised I had read that hairdresser anecdote at least a year ago. I hoped you had better for me


----------



## Yossarian (Jul 6, 2021)

Mr Retro said:


> Stopped reading after this:
> 
> *"Real-world studies are a bit harder to come by, but the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) has highlighted a few. In one high-exposure event, two hair stylists - who were displaying symptoms - were found to have interacted with 139 clients during an eight-day period."*
> 
> When I realised I had read that hairdresser anecdote at least a year ago. I hoped you had better for me



Most of the studies in which non-masked people infected shitloads of people are going to be on the older side for obvious reasons, though you may have some fresher ones soon.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Jul 6, 2021)

Mr Retro said:


> It's a good question, I don't know why they did this. I reckon my chance of dying from Covid-19 is about 1 in 8500 _without_ being fully vaccinated like I am. I think about 1 in every 100 deaths now is a Covid death. But the way Covid-19 it has dominated our lives it would seem peoples perception of their risk of death is far far greater than it actually is. So why were people purposefully scared like they were? I just ordered "A State of Fear: How the UK government weaponised fear during the Covid-19 pandemic". I'll be interested to read what it says


Scientists of many different types, governments of nearly all persuasions and the whole world's media did not conspire to do anything. They just looked at the impact on society and economies and took what they thought were appropriate actions, or the least they could get away with. Some countries did very little, either because of the sheer scale of the problem, or because their health and societal infrastructures were so poor, or they were run by Covid denying, creationist, flat earth enthusiasts. So compare the scaredy cats of New Zealand with the strong sturdy Brazilian government. 
P.S. You've ordered a book you haven't read yet, which might be an interesting read. Is that how you normally make decisions?


----------



## Teaboy (Jul 6, 2021)

I think even if covid just went away tomorrow there still would be a time and a place for masks.  I'm thinking when you're full of cold and are in a tight crowded space like the tube etc.  You can't help catching a cold but coughing and spluttering over people when they have nowhere to move to is pretty gross and it would be nice if we were a bit more polite about it.

With regard to covid though the usefulness of masks is an area where I'm not as convinced as some here are.  I think the science behind it is fine I just question how effective they can be when they come up against the reality of human behaviour.  For them to be really effective we would need large scale compliance and people wearing the right type of masks correctly.  Fact is all those things actually happening is way below any decent threshold. 

The guidance and laws on mask wearing started changing in the autumn and since then we've had a very bad second wave and we are now well into our third wave.

They have become highly politicized and part of the self-defeating culture war stupidity we're seeing at the moment.  I believe they've taken on a position or value out of proportion with their effectiveness, especially for the protection they offer to the wearer.

For me they're as easy as putting on a pair of socks and if it helps a bit than why not carry on wearing them?  There will be certain circumstances that I might stop wearing them.  For example it still feels pointless to be walking through a pub / cafe which is really well ventilated (bi-fold doors open windows etc) in a mask where there are loads of seated people not wearing them as they eat and drink.  Its also not unusual in these places for staff not to be wearing them either. In that scenario I do wonder sometimes what is the point?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jul 6, 2021)

Mr Retro said:


> LynnDoyleCooper if you (or anybody else) can't debate & disagree without insults I will put you on ignore.
> 
> The evidence that wearing a mask does anything to protect the wearer or those they are around is not clear. I detest them, I find them oppressive and their removal of dignity and individualism really effects me. Therefore in the absence of evidence I will not wear one.
> 
> Individual freedoms have been entirely removed by government in the last 16 months. In their fear, purposely engendered by scientists, government and MSM I think many people have been quite comfortable with this totalitarianism. Now we are getting freedoms back, I believe the shrieking about masks and the common good in the last day or so on social medi is somewhere to direct the fear. I understand this and I think masks are a comfort for people. I will respect and not judge anybody who still wants to wear a mask while exercising my right not to.



You're gonna have to go ahead and put me on ignore as well then, because you're a dense cunt.


----------



## LDC (Jul 6, 2021)

Mr Retro said:


> It's a good question, I don't know why they did this. I reckon my chance of dying from Covid-19 is about 1 in 8500 _without_ being fully vaccinated like I am. I think about 1 in every 100 deaths now is a Covid death. But the way Covid-19 it has dominated our lives it would seem peoples perception of their risk of death is far far greater than it actually is. So why were people purposefully scared like they were? I just ordered "A State of Fear: How the UK government weaponised fear during the Covid-19 pandemic". I'll be interested to read what it says



OK, that book you mention. I've had a look at it. For the moment I'll ignore the author and the content and glance at some of the people singing its praises in the reviews on Amazon.

Lord Sumption. A Lord. Been a senior judge. Been a Tory MP. One of the first guests on GB News.
Neil Oliver. GB News presenter. Plenty of racist outbursts.
Robert Dingwall. Heavily involved in private healthcare. Consults to big business.
Patrick Fagan. Psychologist for Cambridge Analytica.
Francis Hoar. Barrister. Been trying to get Chis Whitty sacked. Right wing libertarian.
Beverly Turner. TV presenter. Nothing to do with health, but is an anti-vaxxer.
Piers Robinson. Conspiracy theorist. Defends Assad. Russian stooge.
So no epidemiologists, medical doctors of any sort, public health people, health professors, etc etc.
Does none of that ring any alarm bells for you Mr Retro?


----------



## cupid_stunt (Jul 6, 2021)

Mr Retro said:


> Stopped reading after this:
> 
> *"Real-world studies are a bit harder to come by, but the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) has highlighted a few. In one high-exposure event, two hair stylists - who were displaying symptoms - were found to have interacted with 139 clients during an eight-day period."*
> 
> When I realised I had read that hairdresser anecdote at least a year ago. I hoped you had better for me



It's not just a 'anecdote', if you had bothered to click the link, you would find the study that looked into it, but I guess that would be too complex for you to understand.  🤷‍♂️ 

But, if you want something from this year, here's two posted helpfully by Pickman's Model earlier, which you probably missed as you have him on ignore.









						An evidence review of face masks against COVID-19
					

The science around the use of masks by the public to impede COVID-19 transmission is advancing rapidly. In this narrative review, we develop an analytical framework to examine mask usage, synthesizing the relevant literature to inform multiple areas: population impact, transmission...




					www.pnas.org
				












						Effectiveness of Mask Wearing to Control Community Spread of SARS-CoV-2
					

This JAMA Insights CDC review summarizes accumulating evidence that mask wearing reduces spread of SARS-CoV-2 infection and that universal mandatory mask wearing policies reduce infections and deaths and emphasizes face masks are one component of pandemic control measures, including physical...




					jamanetwork.com
				




- those, plus several other links in that Sky article, provides a wealth of evidence from peer-reviewed studies by the scientific community across the globe.


----------



## killer b (Jul 6, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> OK, that book you mention. I've had a look at it. For the moment I'll ignore the author and the content and glance at some of the people singing its praises in the reviews on Amazon.
> 
> Lord Sumption. A Lord. Been a senior judge. Been a Tory MP. One of the first guests on GB News.
> Neil Oliver. GB News presenter. Plenty of racist outbursts.
> ...


the virologists, health professors and the like are all in on the conspiracy - only a plucky band of hard-right libertarians, racist TV presenters and tory lords stand between us and total capitulation to the new world order.


----------



## scalyboy (Jul 6, 2021)

Mr Retro said:


> It's a good question, I don't know why they did this. I reckon my chance of dying from Covid-19 is about 1 in 8500 _without_ being fully vaccinated like I am. I think about 1 in every 100 deaths now is a Covid death. But the way Covid-19 it has dominated our lives it would seem peoples perception of their risk of death is far far greater than it actually is. So why were people purposefully scared like they were? I just ordered "A State of Fear: How the UK government weaponised fear during the Covid-19 pandemic". I'll be interested to read what it says


Another question might be: why would governments around the world choose to decimate their own economies if there was no real threat from Covid? If their collective goal was simply to engender fear among the populace, wouldn't they have had other means of doing so, means that didn't severely harm their respective GDPs?


----------



## Chilli.s (Jul 6, 2021)

Fuck yes.  I'm keen to continue using masks for a whole lot longer.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 6, 2021)

scalyboy said:


> Another question might be: why would governments around the world choose to decimate their own economies if there was no real threat from Covid? If their collective goal was simply to engender fear among the populace, wouldn't they have had other means of doing so, means that didn't severely harm their respective GDPs?


The great reset or summat


----------



## Mr Retro (Jul 6, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> You're gonna have to go ahead and put me on ignore as well then, because you're a dense cunt.





LynnDoyleCooper said:


> OK, that book you mention. I've had a look at it. For the moment I'll ignore the author and the content and glance at some of the people singing its praises in the reviews on Amazon.
> 
> Lord Sumption. A Lord. Been a senior judge. Been a Tory MP. One of the first guests on GB News.
> Neil Oliver. GB News presenter. Plenty of racist outbursts.
> ...


I'll read this book and do some other reading and make my own conclusions. I don't really care much who is praising it but for sure that rouges gallery rings alarm bells. Also ordered Arendt's book to read again


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Jul 6, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> replace the word mask with pants and observe your lunacy


I bet even the naked rambler wears a mask


----------



## Raheem (Jul 6, 2021)

I intend to carry on wearing a mask. To be honest though, if hardly anyone else is, there won't seem much point, and then I will probably stop.


----------



## Thora (Jul 6, 2021)

I only really wear a mask at the moment when queuing (outside) for pre-school pick up, toddler groups and when walking to my table at pubs/restaurants and then taking it off when I sit down.  So probably won't bother then.
Don't wear them at all at work or take public transport.
I rarely go into shops but I guess if I do I will continue to wear a mask (if I remember to take one).


----------



## bimble (Jul 6, 2021)

Mr Retro said:


> It's a good question, I don't know why they did this. I reckon my chance of dying from Covid-19 is about 1 in 8500 _without_ being fully vaccinated like I am. I think about 1 in every 100 deaths now is a Covid death. But the way Covid-19 it has dominated our lives it would seem peoples perception of their risk of death is far far greater than it actually is. So why were people purposefully scared like they were? I just ordered "A State of Fear: How the UK government weaponised fear during the Covid-19 pandemic". I'll be interested to read what it says


That book won't help with your quandry of seemingly believing that scientists, the governments of the world, and the media, conspired in an amazing co-ordinated effort to scare everyone and torpedo their economies for no apparent reason.

Book's  just going to be about how the 'nudge' people, behavioral scientists & gov, tried to get those who weren't scared of the virus themselves to join in the effort to stop the spread that's all.
Same sort of thing as the stop smoking Don't drink & drive public info campaigns, which all use fear too, to try to modify the behaviour of the reckless for the public good.

So it won't in any way help bolster your conviction about a vast global conspiracy involving countless thousands of people all over the planet working together to do something _to absolutely no discernible benefit to themselves or anyone else _apart from maybe Big Mask.

This is the weird irony with Freedom Lovers of a certain stripe, they project immense power and limitless skill to a disparate bunch of strangers, imagining a huge well run & oppressive global machine conspiring against them when in fact, really, there isn't anything like that at all. And by doing so you massively disempower yourself with your own fervent imagination.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Jul 6, 2021)

Mr Retro said:


> LynnDoyleCooper if you (or anybody else) can't debate & disagree without insults I will put you on ignore.
> 
> The evidence that wearing a mask does anything to protect the wearer or those they are around is not clear. I detest them, I find them oppressive and their removal of dignity and individualism really effects me. Therefore in the absence of evidence I will not wear one.
> 
> Individual freedoms have been entirely removed by government in the last 16 months. In their fear, purposely engendered by scientists, government and MSM I think many people have been quite comfortable with this totalitarianism. Now we are getting freedoms back, I believe the shrieking about masks and the common good in the last day or so on social medi is somewhere to direct the fear. I understand this and I think masks are a comfort for people. I will respect and not judge anybody who still wants to wear a mask while exercising my right not to.


Grow the fuck up you pathetic twat.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Jul 6, 2021)

Since the pandemic started I've always worn a mask when going out and santized my hands every time I got back home. Don't see why I would stop now, especially as what lies ahead is likely to be worse than the second wave.


----------



## TopCat (Jul 6, 2021)

I will wear a mask in enclosed spaces. Plus am thinking about blagging another jab.


----------



## LDC (Jul 6, 2021)

Mr Retro said:


> I'll read this book and do some other reading and make my own conclusions. I don't really care much who is praising it but for sure that rouges gallery rings alarm bells. Also ordered Arendt's book to read again



Honestly, it's just sad and depressing to see someone going down this road. Especially as it seems to go hand-in-hand with thinking they're being a rebel and a free thinker.

150,000 dead people so far here; mostly poor, vulnerable, and key workers, have a fucking look at yourself ffs.


----------



## weepiper (Jul 6, 2021)

Another vote for 'I work in retail and you'll take my mask from my cold dead hands' here. I've been wearing a mask 8 hours a day 5 days a week for 18 months and I've no intention of stopping yet. We're still not letting customers over the threshold either.


----------



## Mrs Miggins (Jul 6, 2021)

I'm feeling really conflicted about this.  I've been on public transport and working throughout the pandemic and when masks became compulsory, that's me in a mask for 10-11 hours a day. I hate it and really want to stop having to do it.

On the other hand, the situation doesn't magically change next week. The hospital aren't going to let us be mask free at work and I'm still very conscious of the increasing number of people taking the bus. So I guess I'm stuck with it for a good while yet.


----------



## LDC (Jul 6, 2021)

Mrs Miggins said:


> I'm feeling really conflicted about this.  I've been on public transport and working throughout the pandemic and when masks became compulsory, that's me in a mask for 10-11 hours a day. I hate it and really want to stop having to do it.
> 
> On the other hand, the situation doesn't magically change next week. The hospital aren't going to let us be mask free at work and I'm still very conscious of the increasing number of people taking the bus. So I guess I'm stuck with it for a good while yet.



Yeah, I actually do hate wearing masks (out of healthcare work) so I can relate to that completely. There's really something about it that's unpleasant on quite a human level. I'll be very pleased when not wearing one is OK and doesn't impact anyone around me.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Jul 6, 2021)

Mr Retro said:


> on ignore


You're an ignorant, self-centered cock-ring.


----------



## Spymaster (Jul 6, 2021)

Doctor Carrot said:


> Put the mask a little bit underneath your spectacles and they won't steam up.



Blimey. This works. Shame it took 16 months for someone to tell me.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Jul 6, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Blimey. This works. Shame it took 16 months for someone to tell me.


----------



## JuanTwoThree (Jul 6, 2021)

JuanTwoThree said:


> it seems that there was little or no flu around too.







__





						Loading…
					





					www.pulsetoday.co.uk
				




Unless it was less foreign travel then that's a good reason in itself. The cultures where mask-earing to avoid giving or getting a cold is common aren't looking so paranoid after all.


----------



## wemakeyousoundb (Jul 6, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Blimey. This works. Shame it took 16 months for someone to tell me.


I read this on one of the other older mask thread last year, it's worked a treat since


----------



## wemakeyousoundb (Jul 6, 2021)

Can't see my self stopping as my self employment will mean working in small badly ventilated venues with shouty crowds, might in fact get some FFP2 or better for work.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Jul 6, 2021)

Mr Retro said:


> I’m so relieved and glad it’s being left up to individuals to asses and make their own decisions based on what they perceive as the risk. I believe should have been policy through all this. I won’t wear a mask after 19th. I will respect those who decide they still want to.


----------



## hitmouse (Jul 6, 2021)

Mr Retro said:


> The evidence that wearing a mask does anything to protect the wearer or those they are around is not clear. I detest them, I find them oppressive and their removal of dignity and individualism really effects me. Therefore in the absence of evidence I will not wear one.
> 
> Individual freedoms have been entirely removed by government in the last 16 months. In their fear, purposely engendered by scientists, government and MSM I think many people have been quite comfortable with this totalitarianism. Now we are getting freedoms back, I believe the shrieking about masks and the common good in the last day or so on social medi is somewhere to direct the fear. I understand this and I think masks are a comfort for people. I will respect and not judge anybody who still wants to wear a mask while exercising my right not to.


have you ever heard of cctv?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 6, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> OK, that book you mention. I've had a look at it. For the moment I'll ignore the author and the content and glance at some of the people singing its praises in the reviews on Amazon.
> 
> Lord Sumption. A Lord. Been a senior judge. Been a Tory MP. One of the first guests on GB News.
> Neil Oliver. GB News presenter. Plenty of racist outbursts.
> ...


And it's from a publisher I've never heard of before and written by someone with no obvious expertise in writing about this sort of thing


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 6, 2021)

scalyboy said:


> Another question might be: why would governments around the world choose to decimate their own economies if there was no real threat from Covid? If their collective goal was simply to engender fear among the populace, wouldn't they have had other means of doing so, means that didn't severely harm their respective GDPs?


In the cold war they just used nuclear weapons to provoke fear of universal death


----------



## Ax^ (Jul 6, 2021)

Mr Retro said:


> LynnDoyleCooper if you (or anybody else) can't debate & disagree without insults I will put you on ignore.
> 
> The evidence that wearing a mask does anything to protect the wearer or those they are around is not clear. I detest them, I find them oppressive and their removal of dignity and individualism really effects me. Therefore in the absence of evidence I will not wear one.
> 
> Individual freedoms have been entirely removed by government in the last 16 months. In their fear, purposely engendered by scientists, government and MSM I think many people have been quite comfortable with this totalitarianism. Now we are getting freedoms back, I believe the shrieking about masks and the common good in the last day or so on social medi is somewhere to direct the fear. I understand this and I think masks are a comfort for people. I will respect and not judge anybody who still wants to wear a mask while exercising my right not to.



whilst i don't want to pile in on the have a go at the non mask wearing  and you mentioned the dreaded "MSM" word meaning you quite likely be watching spudloons on facebook and youtube

you are aware than the government slammed through legilation that inhibites the right to protest by saying that even one preson can be arrested if one random
dickhead says thier noise is disrupting their life,

will Criminalise the homeless , people who live in their car dues to lack of housing and basically make it illegal to be a gypsy of any sort

and you worried about fucking being asked to wear a mask being Totalitarianism


fucking take a look around for the love of god.


Freedom fucking day my Arsehole


----------



## Chilli.s (Jul 6, 2021)

Sometimes I wear a mask for work, I don't think it's a fun thing to do as it isn't, but i'll be paid for it. It doesn't remove any dignity or individualism, it protects me. Spots, sore face, greasy marks, straps round the head, none of it is for fun. World is full of big babies that need to learn how to protect themselves and everyone else.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 6, 2021)

can’t say i’ve had spots or owt from wearing a mask all day. we don’t complain about our genitals being kept undercover all day nor do we think this causes zits and grease n shit


----------



## Chilli.s (Jul 6, 2021)

My face sweats constantly in a mask


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Jul 6, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> we don’t complain about our genitals being kept undercover all day nor do we think this causes zits and grease n shit


well something's causing it


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 6, 2021)

Chilli.s said:


> My face sweats constantly in a mask


when do you wear it? i wear one all day and nowt more than usual


----------



## Leighsw2 (Jul 6, 2021)

lazythursday said:


> Have just bought some new masks from here Face masks and face mask filters for your protection | AirPop - the best in Which? tests - as am determined to carry on using public transport because avoiding it earlier in the pandemic had a huge impact on my quality of life, so want to protect myself the best I can. Otherwise though, I will carry on wearing mask in the few shops I go to and otherwise will keep outside, until case rates drop to a level I'm comfortable with.


Thanks for this tip, I've just bought one. Looks like it might be a better fit than the ab+ masks that I've been using (though I think they're very good).


----------



## Chilli.s (Jul 6, 2021)

Workshop stuff, is a fairly heavy duty affair.  The shopping and going out ones are lots easier


----------



## Spymaster (Jul 6, 2021)

lazythursday said:


> Have just bought some new masks from here Face masks and face mask filters for your protection | AirPop - the best in Which? tests - as am determined to carry on using public transport because avoiding it earlier in the pandemic had a huge impact on my quality of life, so want to protect myself the best I can. Otherwise though, I will carry on wearing mask in the few shops I go to and otherwise will keep outside, until case rates drop to a level I'm comfortable with.



Looks like some of these work out to around £5/mask.

Seriously?


----------



## Supine (Jul 6, 2021)

Mr Retro said:


> LynnDoyleCooper if you (or anybody else) can't debate & disagree without insults I will put you on ignore.
> 
> The evidence that wearing a mask does anything to protect the wearer or those they are around is not clear. I detest them, I find them oppressive and their removal of dignity and individualism really effects me. Therefore in the absence of evidence I will not wear one.



You must be really fucking thick and selfish to believe this. Do you need some pictures to help you understand?


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Jul 6, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Blimey. This works. Shame it took 16 months for someone to tell me.


This has been my crowning contribution to fighting this pandemic. I've told it to loads of people and they've all had the same reaction


----------



## scifisam (Jul 6, 2021)

Well, I'm medically exempt due to my shit lungs, so when I wear a mask it's by choice anyway. So I will probably continue the way I am now - doing my best to wear one until it becomes too much, especially if I'm close to people. Like on the tube the other day I wore it in the station, then puled it down for a while on the open and fairly empty platform and kept it down for a bit in the carriage because the only other person (apart from my GF) was at the other end of the carriage, then pulled it back up when the carriage started filing up. Not ideal but the best compromise I could manage.




Orang Utan said:


> can’t say i’ve had spots or owt from wearing a mask all day. we don’t complain about our genitals being kept undercover all day nor do we think this causes zits and grease n shit



Yeah, but facial skin is different (thinner), and different people are going to respond in different ways. I get patches of eczema on my face if I've had to wear a mask for a long period.


----------



## 2hats (Jul 6, 2021)

Mr Retro said:


> The evidence that wearing a mask does anything to protect the wearer or those they are around is not clear.


Incorrect - DOI: 10.1126/science.abg6296.


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Jul 6, 2021)

weepiper said:


> Another vote for 'I work in retail and you'll take my mask from my cold dead hands' here. I've been wearing a mask 8 hours a day 5 days a week for 18 months and I've no intention of stopping yet. *We're still not letting customers over the threshold either.*


That is the one thing I've been really lacking at work throughout, the support of my colleagues and boss in enforcing this. It started out OK but then fell apart quite quickly. 

In normal times the relaxed approach my boss has is great but during a pandemic he's been a bit of a wanker. I was able to refuse to serve people without masks, and did at times, but if he didn't do it while I wasn't working and then hardly any of my colleagues did it ends up being an exhausting and losing battle.


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Jul 6, 2021)

scifisam said:


> Well, I'm medically exempt due to my shit lungs, so when I wear a mask it's by choice anyway. So I will probably continue the way I am now - doing my best to wear one until it becomes too much, especially if I'm close to people. Like on the tube the other day I wore it in the station, then puled it down for a while on the open and fairly empty platform and kept it down for a bit in the carriage because the only other person (apart from my GF) was at the other end of the carriage, then pulled it back up when the carriage started filing up. Not ideal but the best compromise I could manage.


As a shop worker I've really appreciated people like you. Despite medical issues you've still felt it important to protect other people, you haven't moaned about the imposition of masks, haven't seen them as some sort of robot Bill Gates lizard people plot to make us all bluetooth enabled and you haven't loudly announced just how exempt you are. You've just quietly got on with it and done your best and I thank you for that


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 6, 2021)

Doctor Carrot said:


> That is the one thing I've been really lacking at work throughout, the support of my colleagues and boss in enforcing this. It started out OK but then fell apart quite quickly.
> 
> In normal times the relaxed approach my boss has is great but during a pandemic he's been a bit of a wanker. I was able to refuse to serve people without masks, and did at times, but if he didn't do it while I wasn't working and then hardly any of my colleagues did it ends up being an exhausting and losing battle.


even before this, we were told we still had to let people in if they told us they were 'exempt' even if they just didn't want to wear a mask. Of course, many people who felt this way just had to say they were exempt and we still of course had to let them in, but now those who are not prepared to lie can now declare themselves as cunts with impunity


----------



## kittyP (Jul 6, 2021)

DotCommunist said:


> its an excuse to go about semi incognito, I'll be milking it


This ^
I feel much happier out and about the more clothes I have on (so winter I'm generally less anxious than summer) and the mask is just more stuff covering me up.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jul 6, 2021)

S☼I said:


> Jesus wept. Totalitarianism is it. In b4 _muzzles_



My favourite so far is 'face nappies'. The only way you could confuse a mask with a nappy would be if shit regularly came spewing out of your mouth, which to be fair in the case of the person ranting about face nappies was more or less accurate.


----------



## kittyP (Jul 6, 2021)

killer b said:


> I guess there is a subtle alienating effect of not being able to see people smiling and whatnot, but there's a more significant alienating effect of a substantial number of people around you thinking you don't give a shit about their health.


When I went to have my second jab, in the hall where you waited for 15 minutes after, a woman with a pram was in the closest chair to me.
It was quite hot so she unzipped the pram cover and I could then see the baby's face. 
It looked at me and I smiled very gently at it with my mask on and it beamed a huge smile back at me. 

I know masks can cause communication difficulties for some people with hearing and sight problems and for people who are neuro atypical but I don't think that's what Mr Retro was talking about.


----------



## scifisam (Jul 6, 2021)

Doctor Carrot said:


> As a shop worker I've really appreciated people like you. Despite medical issues you've still felt it important to protect other people, you haven't moaned about the imposition of masks, haven't seen them as some sort of robot Bill Gates lizard people plot to make us all bluetooth enabled and you haven't loudly announced just how exempt you are. You've just quietly got on with it and done your best and I thank you for that



Thanks, but TBH I have moaned a bit about not liking them, especially early on. And I've argued with people who claim that masks can never, ever cause problems with breathing. I really didn't expect them to be a problem for me, but they most definitely are. (Also, I didn't really know how bad my lungs are - 40% lung function is, apparently, pretty bad - who knew? My doctors are totally relaxed about it!)

Anyway... It's completely counter-logical to think they won't help protect against airborne or droplet-based infections. How protective is arguable - and scientists aren't in complete agreement on that, and it depends on the mask - but it's totally fucking obvious that they will make a big difference. 

I really would like to see them being used now and then by everyone (inc me) when they have what might be the start of a cough or cold because it's not really practical for most people to stay at home all the time when they have a mild cold, but now we've got used to masks we have an in-between option.


----------



## Mr Retro (Jul 7, 2021)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> Grow the fuck up you pathetic twat.


On ignore


----------



## Mr Retro (Jul 7, 2021)

Count Cuckula said:


> You're an ignorant, self-centered cock-ring.


On ignore


----------



## existentialist (Jul 7, 2021)

Mr Retro said:


> On ignore


Fuck cunt shit arse twat


----------



## Mr Retro (Jul 7, 2021)

bimble said:


> That book won't help with your quandry of seemingly believing that scientists, the governments of the world, and the media, conspired in an amazing co-ordinated effort to scare everyone and torpedo their economies for no apparent reason.
> 
> Book's  just going to be about how the 'nudge' people, behavioral scientists & gov, tried to get those who weren't scared of the virus themselves to join in the effort to stop the spread that's all.
> Same sort of thing as the stop smoking Don't drink & drive public info campaigns, which all use fear too, to try to modify the behaviour of the reckless for the public good.
> ...


Ignoring the patronising tone of your post telling me what I will or won’t learn from a book you yourself haven’t read,  I’m obviously not going to read just this 1 book, I mentioned it as I had just bought it.

I’m wondering why there was a policy of purposefully scaring people, disproportionally in my view given the actual risks.  

You might think it’s a fools errand and that’s fine too but I’m going to do a bit of digging into the subject.


----------



## bimble (Jul 7, 2021)

Mr Retro said:


> Ignoring the patronising tone of your post telling me what I will or won’t learn from a book you yourself haven’t read,  I’m obviously not going to read just this 1 book, I mentioned it as I had just bought it.
> 
> I’m wondering why there was a policy of purposefully scaring people, disproportionally in my view given the actual risks.
> 
> You might think it’s a fools errand and that’s fine too but I’m going to do a bit of digging into the subject.


Let us know if you find out why they did it. Bearing in mind that a few brave honest souls refused to join in the inexplicable conspiracy, such as Donald Trump, Modi in India and Bolsonaro in Brazil.


----------



## existentialist (Jul 7, 2021)

Mr Retro said:


> Ignoring the patronising tone of your post telling me what I will or won’t learn from a book you yourself haven’t read,  I’m obviously not going to read just this 1 book, I mentioned it as I had just bought it.
> 
> I’m wondering why there was a policy of purposefully scaring people, disproportionally in my view given the actual risks.
> 
> You might think it’s a fools errand and that’s fine too but I’m going to do a bit of digging into the subject.


Dig away. Ideally, don't stop until you see daylight.


----------



## Aladdin (Jul 7, 2021)

Mr Retro said:


> LynnDoyleCooper if you (or anybody else) can't debate & disagree without insults I will put you on ignore.
> 
> The evidence that wearing a mask does anything to protect the wearer or those they are around is not clear. I detest them, I find them oppressive and their removal of dignity and individualism really effects me. Therefore in the absence of evidence I will not wear one.
> 
> Individual freedoms have been entirely removed by government in the last 16 months. In their fear, purposely engendered by scientists, government and MSM I think many people have been quite comfortable with this totalitarianism. Now we are getting freedoms back, I believe the shrieking about masks and the common good in the last day or so on social medi is somewhere to direct the fear. I understand this and I think masks are a comfort for people. I will respect and not judge anybody who still wants to wear a mask while exercising my right not to.



You find a mask "oppressive"?

Jesus wept. 

Why do you think the medical staff treating covid patients in intensive care are wearing masks? 
Are they "oppressed" too in your little peabrain?


----------



## David Clapson (Jul 7, 2021)

In central Brixton you have to wear a mask outdoors because of the people who get right in your face to demand fags and money. They're so out of it that they probably know nothing about the virus. They're swapping spit with countless people every day...they're just a walking superspreader event.


----------



## Spymaster (Jul 7, 2021)

Mr Retro's taken a lot of stick but a lot of people think the same way and despite the good intentions suggested by many on this thread, I think the reality is going to be that mask use will all but cease in a couple of months unless there's another directive to wear them. The first places they'll go completely is pubs, restaurants, and anywhere else people get pissed. Then as people see fewer and fewer others wearing them they'll decide there's not much point holding-out when hardly anyone else is.


----------



## Aladdin (Jul 7, 2021)

Mr Retro said:


> Ignoring the patronising tone of your post telling me what I will or won’t learn from a book you yourself haven’t read,  I’m obviously not going to read just this 1 book, I mentioned it as I had just bought it.
> 
> I’m wondering why there was a policy of purposefully scaring people, disproportionally in my view given the actual risks.
> 
> You might think it’s a fools errand and that’s fine too but I’m going to do a bit of digging into the subject.




In your world a gas mask would be the ultimate in oppression. 

Imagine in the Blitz some dopeys saying "dont wear the mask...your the victim of scare mongering...it wont actually help you"

Doh!!

This fucking virus has already killed 128,268 people in the UK. 

You seem to find that inconsequential?


----------



## bimble (Jul 7, 2021)

Spymaster totally agree with you on that, don't expect to see many masks apart from on old and vulnerable people. But  that's nothing to do with Mr Retro's idea that there shouldn't have been masks in the first place cos there's been a massive concerted conspiracy to scare people for a reason that he's yet to discover.


----------



## David Clapson (Jul 7, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Mr Retro's taken a lot of stick but a lot of people think the same way and despite the good intentions suggested by many on this thread, I think the reality is going to be that mask use will all but cease in a couple of months unless there's another directive to wear them. The first places they'll go completely is pubs, restaurants, and anywhere else people get pissed. Then as people see fewer and fewer others wearing them they'll decide there's not much point holding-out when hardly anyone else is.



All of that means my mask-wearing will increase.


----------



## Spymaster (Jul 7, 2021)

bimble said:


> Spymaster totally agree with you on that. Thats nothing to do with Mr Retro's idea that there's been a massive concerted conspiracy to scare people for a reason that he's yet to discover.


No.


----------



## Aladdin (Jul 7, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Mr Retro's taken a lot of stick but a lot of people think the same way and despite the good intentions suggested by many on this thread, I think the reality is going to be that mask use will all but cease in a couple of months unless there's another directive to wear them. The first places they'll go completely is pubs, restaurants, and anywhere else people get pissed. Then as people see fewer and fewer others wearing them they'll decide there's not a lot point holding-out when hardly anyone else is.




Sorry Spy...you're wrong on this. There is a fourth wave closing in rapidly.
It will pick off those who couldnt get vaccinated and are still vulnerable.
And mask wearing could help prevent spread.


----------



## TopCat (Jul 7, 2021)

Indoors in shops and pubs and on transport. I fear the lessening of the arrangements. This will give heart to wankers demanding masks be removed by all.


----------



## bimble (Jul 7, 2021)

The first people to Burn The Mask (popular comment i saw on daily mail yesterday) will be the vaccine refusers, which is great.


----------



## killer b (Jul 7, 2021)

Mr Retro said:


> I’m wondering why there was a policy of purposefully scaring people, disproportionally in my view given the actual risks.


I'm interested in what you think a proportional response might be to a virus which - while low risk to most people - still overwhelmed the health services at the height of infections, even with the apparently disproportional restrictions in place.


----------



## TopCat (Jul 7, 2021)

Seeing drunk young people shouting and spraying droplets, hugging and cheering at the football is truely one of the most doom laden sights of my life.


----------



## ska invita (Jul 7, 2021)

This








						What are the risks of England unlocking in the Covid third wave?
					

Analysis: Boris Johnson is betting big by easing rules on 19 July despite new infections rising exponentially




					www.theguardian.com
				



talks about the R number going up to 7 (source Public Health England’s Dr Susan Hopkins told MPs)

...im not sure masks are going to do anything in the face of that


----------



## TopCat (Jul 7, 2021)

bimble said:


> The first people to Burn The Mask (popular comment i saw on daily mail yesterday) will be the vaccine refusers, which is great.


They can still give it to us. More and more of the double jabbed are getting infected.


----------



## TopCat (Jul 7, 2021)

ska invita said:


> This
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Seven? SEVEN?


----------



## Spymaster (Jul 7, 2021)

Sugar Kane said:


> Sorry Spy...you're wrong on this. There is a fourth wave closing in rapidly.
> It will pick off those who couldnt get vaccinated and are still vulnerable.
> And mask wearing could help prevent spread.



Fourth or third? But I don't disagree with that. However, people will stop wearing masks if they don't have to. It'll start will the selfish but spread very quickly because the protection afforded by them relies heavily on their mass use. Once that's gone there really isn't much point being the only person in Sainsburys wearing one.


----------



## bimble (Jul 7, 2021)

killer b said:


> I'm interested in what you think a proportional response might be to a virus which - while low risk to most people - still overwhelmed the health services at the height of infections, even with the apparently disproportional restrictions in place.


There were options, alternatives. Like the gov could have decided for instance that the NHS simply refuse treatment to anyone over a certain age. Can't think of anything else actually, that would have been the option.


----------



## bimble (Jul 7, 2021)

TopCat said:


> They can still give it to us. More and more of the double jabbed are getting infected.


yep, they're in the best position to do so thats what i was thinking of.


----------



## ska invita (Jul 7, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Seven? SEVEN?


unless ive misunderstood it, thats what it says in the article - its full herd immunity time, thats the policy...let it rip and take it on the chin etc


----------



## TopCat (Jul 7, 2021)

ska invita said:


> unless ive misunderstood it, thats what it says in the article - its full herd immunity time, thats the policy...let it rip and take it on the chin etc


(Pukes)


----------



## killer b (Jul 7, 2021)

bimble said:


> There were options, alternatives. Like the gov could have decided for instance that the NHS simply refuse treatment to anyone over a certain age. Can't think of anything else actually, that would have bene the option.


I was talking to a woman the other day who was advocating something like this. 'What's the point in keeping people with altsheimers alive while the economy crumbles! Its madness!'


----------



## bimble (Jul 7, 2021)

killer b said:


> I was talking to a woman the other day who was advocating something like this. 'What's the point in keeping people with altsheimers alive while the economy crumbles! Its madness!'


I am sure they focus grouped it plenty as an idea.


----------



## Aladdin (Jul 7, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Fourth or third? But I don't disagree with that. However, people will stop wearing masks if they don't have to. It'll start will the selfish but spread very quickly because the protection afforded by them relies heavily on their mass use. Once that's gone there really isn't much point being the only person in Sainsburys wearing one.




If its an N95 mask or N99 mask then that one person will be safer.


----------



## killer b (Jul 7, 2021)

bimble said:


> I am sure they focus grouped it plenty as an idea.


I'd like to see mass deaths worked out as a full policy rather than just exasperated hand-waving.


----------



## Spymaster (Jul 7, 2021)

Sugar Kane said:


> If its an N95 mask or N99 mask then that one person will be safer.


I think most people who are most worried about becoming infected simply won’t go out to places where many gather. I certainly don’t think that lots of people will change the type of masks they wear. I just don’t think that’s the way folk are. We’ll see though. My prediction is that barring another government order to wear them again, there’ll be hardly a mask to be seen by Autumn.


----------



## Clair De Lune (Jul 7, 2021)

I'd say it totally depends on how close to other people I get, how many and if the place is indoors.


----------



## TopCat (Jul 7, 2021)

ska invita said:


> unless ive misunderstood it, thats what it says in the article - its full herd immunity time, thats the policy...let it rip and take it on the chin etc


I read the article and it says unmitigated delta variant spread is seven. But that’s not the case for the UK at present as the outbreak has been mitigated with mask wearing, social distancing, hand washing and vaccination.


----------



## Aladdin (Jul 7, 2021)

killer b said:


> I was talking to a woman the other day who was advocating something like this. 'What's the point in keeping people with altsheimers alive while the economy crumbles! Its madness!'



That's really shit. 
Why not turf the ill and elderly into gas chambers eh? 
I hope you told the woman to go fuck herself.


----------



## TopCat (Jul 7, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> I think most people who are most worried about becoming infected simply won’t go out to places where many gather. I certainly don’t think that lots of people will change the type of masks they wear. I just don’t think that’s the way folk are. We’ll see though. My prediction is that barring another government order to wear them again, there’ll be hardly a mask to be seen by Autumn.


People who were shielding won’t take this approach well.


----------



## ska invita (Jul 7, 2021)

sorry, thats wrong - itd be 7 if no vaccine - misread it








						Covid R number would now be 'up to 7' if we didn't have vaccine, top expert says
					

Dr Susan Hopkins, of Public Health England, laid bare how rapidly the virus would be spreading without the jab - thanks to the highly transmissible new variant




					www.mirror.co.uk
				




guardian didnt make that clear


----------



## Aladdin (Jul 7, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> I think most people who are most worried about becoming infected simply won’t go out to places where many gather. I certainly don’t think that lots of people will change the type of masks they wear. I just don’t think that’s the way folk are. We’ll see though. My prediction is that barring another government order to wear them again, there’ll be hardly a mask to be seen by Autumn.




They'll be wearing masks.

We have already been told that we will be wearing masks in schools next year.

I doubt the Brits will do differently.


----------



## prunus (Jul 7, 2021)

Mr Retro said:


> LynnDoyleCooper if you (or anybody else) can't debate & disagree without insults I will put you on ignore.
> 
> The evidence that wearing a mask does anything to protect the wearer or those they are around is not clear. I detest them, I find them oppressive and their removal of dignity and individualism really effects me. Therefore in the absence of evidence I will not wear one.
> 
> Individual freedoms have been entirely removed by government in the last 16 months. In their fear, purposely engendered by scientists, government and MSM I think many people have been quite comfortable with this totalitarianism. Now we are getting freedoms back, I believe the shrieking about masks and the common good in the last day or so on social medi is somewhere to direct the fear. I understand this and I think masks are a comfort for people. I will respect and not judge anybody who still wants to wear a mask while exercising my right not to.



If this post contains your personal reasoning for not wearing a mask then I’m afraid you’ve reached the wrong conclusion because you’ve based it on erroneous information.

There is ample and unambiguous evidence that using masks reduce transmission of respiratory diseases, including covid.  Therefore in the presence of evidence will you wear one, despite the discomfort?

Fear has not been deliberately engendered by scientists, the government and the media. The government has if anything massively underplayed the danger on many occasions (with disastrous results). Scientists, who are people too, have appeared to be more nervous about this virus because they have better information, not because they want to scare people.

I read from your posts that you are scared, and angry because you don’t like being scared - no one does - and hitting out at the source of fear. We’re all scared, you’re not alone.  The tiny act of wearing a mask feels like too little to make a difference to this huge scary thing - it isn’t though. There are things we can all do together though to try to make things better.

One of the easiest and least disruptive is to wear a mask when around other people. This will reduce transmission, reduce cases, reduce pressure on the health service, and reduce illness, disability and death.  It will also reduce anxiety in vulnerable people, and other people who are just anxious about what this virus will do to our society if allowed to run rampant again.

What do you say - will you join in and do your bit to help? The more of us that do it, the better off we will all be.


----------



## TopCat (Jul 7, 2021)

ska invita said:


> sorry, thats wrong - itd be 7 if no vaccine - misread it
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Aladdin (Jul 7, 2021)

TopCat said:


> I read the article and it says unmitigated delta variant spread is seven. But that’s not the case for the UK at present as the outbreak has been mitigated with mask wearing, social distancing, hand washing and vaccination.



They are expecting 1000  day here with the new variant by end of July.


----------



## David Clapson (Jul 7, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> there really isn't much point being the only person in Sainsburys wearing one.


How on earth do you work that out? Please tell me you don't mean that.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Jul 7, 2021)

Mr Retro said:


> Ignoring the patronising tone of your post telling me what I will or won’t learn from a book you yourself haven’t read,  I’m obviously not going to read just this 1 book, I mentioned it as I had just bought it.
> 
> I’m wondering why there was a policy of purposefully scaring people, disproportionally in my view given the actual risks.
> 
> You might think it’s a fools errand and that’s fine too but I’m going to do a bit of digging into the subject.


“Doing my own research”


----------



## Looby (Jul 7, 2021)

I fully expect there to be very little mask wearing soon. I’ll carry on indoors. I’ve cancelled a gig because I feel like going to an indoor event with no number restriction, no distancing and no masks is stupid. Ticketmaster refunded immediately which surprised me.

I’m a bit worried about people maybe challenging me on wearing one which is stupid and I really hope it doesn’t happen but I think it might.


----------



## Spymaster (Jul 7, 2021)

TopCat said:


> People who were shielding won’t take this approach well.


I know.


----------



## bimble (Jul 7, 2021)

I had a really shit experience yesterday, had an appointment to meet someone in a small public-facing office on the high street.
Tatty old sign on the door saying no mask no entry, as you'd expect. Woman opens the door, no mask, nobody in there was wearing one, _and my instinct was to take mine off,_ because what the fuck is the point, or because peer pressure or i don't even know why.
Instead i left without sitting down because i didn't like the people and there was an easy excuse to delay and do it by phone instead but i did not say anything at all about the mask thing, Will do in an email later tho.


----------



## Spymaster (Jul 7, 2021)

David Clapson said:


> How on earth do you work that out? Please tell me you don't mean that.


Err, that’s really not controversial.


----------



## killer b (Jul 7, 2021)

Last summer when mask wearing was advocated by the government but before it became mandatory in enclosed public spaces, apparently use was about 30%. Seeing as people are more in the habit of doing it now, I'd expect to see it a bit higher, and maybe higher still if/when cases get scary, but those are the kinds of numbers we're looking at.

30% though. 30% for taking an action which - with almost zero cost or discomfort to those observing it - solid evidence showed would prevent spread of the disease. Mandatory use pushed this up to 80%. That's the difference between voluntary and mandatory measures.


----------



## Aladdin (Jul 7, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Err, that’s really not controversial.



It kind of is though...
Especially if you're someone who knows how dangerous covid is?
And if you know how variants develop....
Mass spread...leads not only to death or illness or long term illness...it also leads to new variants.

Every instance of covid is another step towards another variant. And we will all be fucked if a worse variant occurs that can affect the vaccinated badly.

There are massive reasons for continuing to wear masks until this is shut down.


----------



## gentlegreen (Jul 7, 2021)

I'm in the fortunate position to be able to opt out of my role as intermediate host in this apparent experiment.to "naturally vaccinate" people younger than me.
I'm already worried that I lost my voice somewhat on Monday, and had a mild headache yesterday ,and hope my runny nose was just hayfever...


----------



## David Clapson (Jul 7, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Err, that’s really not controversial.


Get to fuck. Masks stop you getting the virus, you clown. Wake the fuck up!


----------



## LDC (Jul 7, 2021)

bimble said:


> I had a really shit experience yesterday, had an appointment to meet someone in a small public-facing office on the high street.
> Tatty old sign on the door saying no mask no entry, as you'd expect. Woman opens the door, no mask, nobody in there was wearing one, _and my instinct was to take mine off,_ because what the fuck is the point, or because peer pressure or i don't even know why.
> Instead i left without sitting down because i didn't like the people and there was an easy excuse to delay and do it by phone instead but i did not say anything at all about the mask thing, Will do in an email later tho.



Contradictory and illogical behaviour like that can be really infuriating. There's a Kurdish bread bakery near me I go to once a week so have got to know the bloke there, and often chat a bit. He's from Iran and has family there, 2 of whom have died from covid, and he said the other week that they're only just starting to get people vaccinated and care in hospitals there is really shit.

Anyway, he knows about and is scared of covid, and like I said has had 2 family die from it. Does he or anyone in the shop wear a mask? Nope. And he hugs or shakes hands with pretty much every customer that comes in, and often stands very close chatting loudly to get over the roaring noise of the oven.


----------



## bimble (Jul 7, 2021)

killer b said:


> Last summer when mask wearing was advocated by the government but before it became mandatory in enclosed public spaces, apparently use was about 30%. Seeing as people are more in the habit of doing it now, I'd expect to see it a bit higher, and maybe higher still if/when cases get scary, but those are the kinds of numbers we're looking at.
> 
> 30% though. 30% for taking an action which - with almost zero cost or discomfort to those observing it - solid evidence showed would prevent spread of the disease. Mandatory use pushed this up to 80%. That's the difference between voluntary and mandatory measures.


i'd be very interested in how that number looks in different countries different places. Obviously there are places where it is seen as completely normal basic courtesy to wear a mask to stop other people catching your cold but aside from that i reckon this is a particularly selfish sort of society we have over here and i'd expect higher than 30% voluntary adoption in say maybe sweden or idk germany even. Less in very macho places.


----------



## killer b (Jul 7, 2021)

bimble said:


> i'd be very interested in how that number looks in different countries different places. Obviously there are places where it is seen as completely normal basic courtesy to wear a mask to stop other people catching your cold but aside from that i reckon this is a particularly selfish sort of society we have over here and i'd expect higher than 30% voluntary adoption in say maybe sweden or idk germany even. Less in very macho places.




here:









						No-lockdown Sweden broke with most of the world and didn't require face masks. Those who wear them say they're treated with suspicion and abuse.
					

Sweden never locked down or had a mask mandate. It only recommends people wear them during rush hour on public transport.




					www.businessinsider.com


----------



## Spymaster (Jul 7, 2021)

David Clapson said:


> Get to fuck. Masks stop you getting the virus, you clown. Wake the fuck up!



Lol, don't be a bell end. Some masks may stop you catching the virus in certain situations. Most won't in many situations. If it were as simple as your puerile analysis suggests, Covid would long be a thing of the past.

Of course there'll be people who still wear masks for their own protection. There were people who wore them for that reason _before_ the pandemic. But the ones we're talking about are those who _do not _fear contracting the virus. They would be wearing masks to prevent them spreading it, not to prevent them contracting it. Now have another little think about the Sainsbury's scenario, You clown!


----------



## David Clapson (Jul 7, 2021)

Fuck off and be ignored, moron. And every time a new variant spreads, look in the mirror and say "this is partly my fault".


----------



## bimble (Jul 7, 2021)

killer b said:


> View attachment 277301
> 
> here:
> 
> ...


well that's depressing as hell.


----------



## killer b (Jul 7, 2021)

bimble said:


> well that's depressing as hell.


coming soon to a country you live in!


----------



## Spymaster (Jul 7, 2021)

David Clapson said:


> Fuck off and be ignored, moron. And every time a new variant spreads, look in the mirror and say "this is partly my fault".


----------



## two sheds (Jul 7, 2021)

> Professor Chris Whitty, the government’s Chief Medical Adviser, later set out the three scenarios in which he would continue to wear a mask once the rules are lifted: in crowded indoor spaces; if required to do so by “any competent authority”; and when doing so will make others feel more comfortable.











						Chris Whitty on the three times we should still wear a mask after July 19
					

Professor Whitty said he will continue to wear a mask in crowded indoor spaces; if required to do so by ‘any competent authority’; and when doing so will make others feel more comfortable




					www.independent.co.uk
				




Sensible but good luck with that - I think it will give some anti-vaxxers and anti-maskers free rein to have a go


----------



## Spymaster (Jul 7, 2021)

Sugar Kane said:


> It kind of is though...
> Especially if you're someone who knows how dangerous covid is?
> And if you know how variants develop....
> Mass spread...leads not only to death or illness or long term illness...it also leads to new variants.
> ...



See above response to Claptrap. Of course there are reasons to continue to wear them. But we're discussing whether people will, not whether they should.


----------



## killer b (Jul 7, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Lol, don't be a bell end. Some masks may stop you catching the virus in certain situations. Most won't in many situations. If it were as simple as your puerile analysis suggests, Covid would long be a thing of the past.
> 
> Of course there'll be people who still wear masks for their own protection. There were people who wore them for that reason _before_ the pandemic. But the ones we're talking about are those who _do not _fear contracting the virus. They would be wearing masks to prevent them spreading it, not to prevent them contracting it. Now have another little think about the Sainsbury's scenario, You clown!


The purpose of mask wearing is to reduce the risk of infection, not to stop it altogether, and the evidence does suggest some reduction for the wearer - there still is a purpose to wearing one in sainsburys even if no-one else is.


----------



## bimble (Jul 7, 2021)

Theory: In 2 weeks time Waitrose will be majority masks, voluntarily, tescos round the corner will be much less. Hope i'm wrong.


----------



## Aladdin (Jul 7, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> See above response to Claptrap. Of course there are reasons to continue to wear them. But we're discussing whether people will, not whether they should.




Who knows what the ever increasing number of thickos will do.

But the government is supposed to be protecting all people... not pandering to the dummies.

Eta...mass Darwin Awards incoming.


----------



## Spymaster (Jul 7, 2021)

killer b said:


> The purpose of mask wearing is to reduce the risk of infection, not to stop it altogether, and the evidence does suggest some reduction *for the wearer* - there still is a purpose to wearing one in sainsburys even if no-one else is.


(My bold) 

Well done. Now read the post you've quoted properly.


----------



## Aladdin (Jul 7, 2021)

The evidence is that:

Social distancing 
Mask wearing
Ventillation
Hand washing
Covering cough

All work. 

Removing mask wearing and at the same time allowing people to mix indoors will pretty much remove three of those protectors. 

It's going to cause problems.


----------



## Spymaster (Jul 7, 2021)

Sugar Kane said:


> The evidence is that:
> 
> Social distancing
> Mask wearing
> ...



Yes. Do you think anyone here disagrees with any of that?


----------



## David Clapson (Jul 7, 2021)

Sugar Kane said:


> Who knows what the ever increasing number of thickos will do.
> 
> But the government is supposed to be protecting all people... not pandering to the dummies.
> 
> Eta...mass Darwin Awards incoming.



And now we have the lambda variant. One day all countries will have an ample supply of vaccines. But there will always be a big enough population of anti-mask and anti-vaccine morons for the virus to mutate.


----------



## killer b (Jul 7, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> (My bold)
> 
> Well done. Now read the post you've quoted properly.


you claimed there was no point being the only person in sainsbury's wearing one - there is a point though - both to avoid infection and to avoid picking it up - even if the overall protection is better if everyone is observant.


----------



## Mr Retro (Jul 7, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Mr Retro's taken a lot of stick but a lot of people think the same way and despite the good intentions suggested by many on this thread, I think the reality is going to be that mask use will all but cease in a couple of months unless there's another directive to wear them. The first places they'll go completely is pubs, restaurants, and anywhere else people get pissed. Then as people see fewer and fewer others wearing them they'll decide there's not much point holding-out when hardly anyone else is.



I think a pointer that masks will be ditched really quickly is the crowds at Wimbledon right now. You can wear a mask if you want to but you are not compelled to. As you can see more or less nobody does. Also Urban75 is not a representative sample. It's like taking a GB News poll but with an opposite result.


----------



## Aladdin (Jul 7, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Yes. Do you think anyone here disagrees with any of that?


I would hope not...


----------



## killer b (Jul 7, 2021)

Wimbledon is outdooors though.


----------



## Leafster (Jul 7, 2021)

bimble said:


> Theory: In 2 weeks time Waitrose will be majority masks, voluntarily, tescos round the corner will be much less. Hope i'm wrong.


I was wondering the same thing. I more or less exclusively shop in one of two Waitrose shops and there has been an almost 100% adherence to the rule. I think I've only seen two people in all this time who weren't wearing masks. Even before it became mandatory there were many people in Waitrose wearing masks.


----------



## Mrs Miggins (Jul 7, 2021)

I think Spymaster is right. Take away the compulsion and people will very quickly stop wearing masks.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jul 7, 2021)

weepiper said:


> Another vote for 'I work in retail and you'll take my mask from my cold dead hands' here. I've been wearing a mask 8 hours a day 5 days a week for 18 months and I've no intention of stopping yet. We're still not letting customers over the threshold either.




English shops/businesses will have the legal right to deny entry to maskless folk after July 19th. Would imagine Scotland will do likewise. Heathrow Airport and all the airlines have already stated they will not be relaxing the mask rules.


----------



## Spymaster (Jul 7, 2021)

killer b said:


> you claimed there was no point being the only person in sainsbury's wearing one ...



Yes, ... from the perspective of spreading the disease and with reference to whether or not people will continue to wear masks after they're told they don't have to.

For the majority of people who are not shielding or do not fear contracting the virus (vaccinated, already had it, magic, whatever) the only preceived reason to continue to wear them is to prevent them *spreading* it. Now, with that mindset, if there are already 200 people in Sainsbury's without masks, can you see why others might decide not to bother?


----------



## cupid_stunt (Jul 7, 2021)

Mr Retro said:


> think a pointer that masks will be ditched really quickly is the crowds at Wimbledon right now. You can wear a mask if you want to but you are not compelled to. As you can see more or less nobody does.





killer b said:


> Wimbledon is outdooors though.



Plus they have to show a negative lateral flow test result too.


----------



## bimble (Jul 7, 2021)

Leafster said:


> I was wondering the same thing. I more or less exclusively shop in one of two Waitrose shops and there has been an almost 100% adherence to the rule. I think I've only seen two people in all this time who weren't wearing masks. Even before it became mandatory there were many people in Waitrose wearing masks.


Yeah, i go there about 1 in 3 times i go food-shopping, on rotation just so i don't become a Waitrose Person. it's been reliably the most consistently masked-up place i've visited the whole time. Its an older demographic, that might be a part of it.


----------



## killer b (Jul 7, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Yes, ... from the perspective of spreading the disease and with reference to whether or not people will continue to wear masks after they're told they don't have to.
> 
> For the majority of people who are not shielding or do not fear contracting the virus (vaccinated, already had it, magic, whatever) the only preceived reason to continue to wear them is to prevent them *spreading* it. Now, with that mindset, if there are already 200 people in Sainsbury's without masks, can you see why others might decide not to bother?


I agree plenty of people might decide not to bother. That's not the same as there being no point though?


----------



## Spymaster (Jul 7, 2021)

Mr Retro said:


> Also Urban75 is not a representative sample. It's like taking a GB News poll but with an opposite result.



I disagree with your take on the wearing of masks but this bit is true. U75 have many good intentioned folk for a variety of reasons but out there in the real world, folk will ditch the masks as soon as they won't get in trouble for doing so.


----------



## Spymaster (Jul 7, 2021)

killer b said:


> I agree plenty of people might decide not to bother. That's not the same as there being no point though?



It's a self-fulfilling prophecy. If the vast majority decide not to bother, from the perspective of group transmission, yes. There is little point in one person deciding not to piss in the pool when the other 200 are all slashing away. That will certainly be the general perception.


----------



## TopCat (Jul 7, 2021)

Back to shopping at Lidl at ten o’clock at night and only once a month then. Plus will get a stout walking cane.


----------



## miss direct (Jul 7, 2021)

I have experience of being treated differently due to wearing a mask. I came back to the UK last year at the start of June. Masks had been mandatory in Turkey since March or April. 

I had to fly back via Belarus and spend the best part of a day dodging crowds in Minsk Airport. Was anxious about flying and flew with a medical mask, fabric mask and a shield (maybe a bit ott but everything was more unknown then.) There were others on my flight in full haz mat suits. One woman had a screaming panic attack on the first flight before take off and banged on the door to be let off, meaning the plane stopped on the runway and went back to the gate to eject her. Irrelevant perhaps but added to the general anxiety.

Anyway I was pretty horrified to land in the UK and be treated with disdain and suspicion due to my mask wearing. It started with the immigration officer... and was so uncomfortable in shops that I avoided going wherever possible.


----------



## bimble (Jul 7, 2021)

I think there'll be a really _very_ small number of people who just carry on masking regardless of what everyone else is doing in whatever place they are in.


----------



## emanymton (Jul 7, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Looks like some of these work out to around £5/mask.
> 
> Seriously?


One of them is £150!!!!


----------



## killer b (Jul 7, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> If the vast majority decide not to bother, from the perspective of group transmission, yes. There is little point in one person deciding not to piss in the pool when the other 200 are all slashing away. That will certainly be the general perception.


Ok got it. So there will be a point to being the only person in Sainsbury's wearing one, just not from one perspective.


----------



## David Clapson (Jul 7, 2021)

One of the things I like about masks is that they signal to other people that you're concerned about getting close to them. If you stand back to let someone through a door or a gap in the crowd, they get the message without anything being said. It saves time, reduces confusion and reduces the chance of transmission.


----------



## Aladdin (Jul 7, 2021)

As of yesterday the WHO advice was to continue to wear masks and follow all measures.


----------



## Spymaster (Jul 7, 2021)

killer b said:


> Ok got it. So there will be a point to being the only person in Sainsbury's wearing one, just not from one perspective.



Christ.

You're not usually this stupid so I'll let you think it over for a while. If you're still struggling with it later I might draw you a picture.


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Jul 7, 2021)

Mr Retro said:


> On ignore


Oh do me next! 

Go suck a shipping container full of mangy, covid infested cocks you thick, arrogant bucket of sheep's piss.


----------



## Spymaster (Jul 7, 2021)

emanymton said:


> One of them is £150!!!!



I know 

Sadly, I think many of the people who buy these will be those least able to afford them. 

The directors of the firm should be shot.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Jul 7, 2021)

bimble said:


> I think there'll be a really _very_ small number of people who just carry on masking regardless of what everyone else is doing in whatever place they are in.



I think there'll be regional variations, there was already a high proportion of people wearing them around here before it was mandated, around 50%, then it went to almost 100% & remains at that level, so I expect over half will continue to wear them in shops.


----------



## Mr Retro (Jul 7, 2021)

cupid_stunt said:


> Plus they have to show a negative lateral flow test result too.


Yes I agree but as a pointer I think it shows people will stop wearing them. We'll see


----------



## killer b (Jul 7, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Christ.
> 
> You're not usually this stupid so I'll let you think it over for a while. If you're still struggling with it later I might draw you a picture.


I'm not struggling - I know there's going to be a massive drop off in mask wearing after the 19th for various reasons, including people thinking there's no point if no-one else is. But people thinking there's no point doesn't mean there's no point. One asymptomatic infected person wearing a mask reduces their chance of infecting other people in the shop even if everyone else is maskless, and even if there are other people in the shop, maskless, who are also infected. Of course it does. Would you like me to draw _you_ a picture?


----------



## Mr Retro (Jul 7, 2021)

killer b said:


> I'm interested in what you think a proportional response might be to a virus which - while low risk to most people - still overwhelmed the health services at the height of infections, even with the apparently disproportional restrictions in place.


We had a plan in place for dealing with pandemics based on years and years of experience but we threw it all away and copied China. I would have followed the plan already in place


----------



## cupid_stunt (Jul 7, 2021)

Mr Retro said:


> We had a plan in place for dealing with pandemics based on years and years of experience but we threw it all away and copied China. I would have followed the plan already in place



We didn't have a plan to deal with a coronavirus pandemic.


----------



## bimble (Jul 7, 2021)

cupid_stunt said:


> I think there'll be regional variations, there was already a high proportion of people wearing them around here before it was mandated, around 50%, then it went to almost 100% & remains at that level, so I expect over half will continue to wear them in shops.


Yeah, i just meant in any given context, the person who will wear their mask in a room full of naked faces will be - tautology! - a very rare sort of person.


----------



## Mr Retro (Jul 7, 2021)

prunus said:


> There is ample and unambiguous evidence that using masks reduce transmission of respiratory diseases, including covid.


No there is not. In the studies posted earlier by Cupid Stunt one of them trots out the hair dresser example yet again. 

You can keep saying that the evidence is clear but it is not. Before healthy people with almost no danger of getting seriously ill or dying were disproportionately scared:

World Health Organisation with 70+ years of experience at the start of the pandemic: ‘There is currently no evidence that wearing a mask (whether medical or other types) by healthy persons in the wider community setting, including universal community masking, can protect them from infection with respiratory viruses, including Covid-19.’
Mike Ryan a director at WHO around the same time: ‘There is no specific evidence to suggest that the wearing of masks by the mass population has any potential benefit. In fact, there’s some evidence to suggest the opposite in the misuse of wearing a mask properly or fitting it properly.’
Chris Whitty, again around the same time: ‘In terms of wearing a mask, our advice is clear: that wearing a mask if you don’t have an infection reduces the risk almost not at all . So we do not advise that.’

The Denmark-19 study that was done before UK were told to start wearing masks last June. A large randomised controlled trial to see if masks protected people wearing them. The finding was difference in outcomes between those wearing masks and those not was ‘not statistically significant’. If there is another randomised controlled trial I can’t find it.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jul 7, 2021)

Mr Retro said:


> We had a plan in place for dealing with pandemics based on years and years of experience but we threw it all away and copied China. I would have followed the plan already in place


I heard an interesting podcast about that a little while ago. Essentially, if you were judging on prepandemic planning, you would have guessed, prepandemic, that the UK and the US were among the best-prepared nations on Earth. They ended up two of the worst-hit, most chaotically disorganised nations on Earth. What they lacked, which other places like South Korea, Taiwan, Vietnam, etc, had, was the flexibility to respond swiftly in a fashion that wasn't in the pre-prepared rulebook. The extensive preplanning actually hurt them.


----------



## Spymaster (Jul 7, 2021)

killer b said:


> But people thinking there's no point doesn't mean there's no point.



Do you agree that the more people who think there's no point, the fewer will wear masks?


----------



## killer b (Jul 7, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Do you agree that the more people who think there's no point, the fewer will wear masks?


sure


----------



## Mr Retro (Jul 7, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I heard an interesting podcast about that a little while ago. Essentially, if you were judging on prepandemic planning, you would have guessed, prepandemic, that the UK and the US were among the best-prepared nations on Earth. They ended up two of the worst-hit, most chaotically disorganised nations on Earth. What they lacked, which other places like South Korea, Taiwan, Vietnam, etc, had, was the flexibility to respond swiftly in a fashion that wasn't in the pre-prepared rulebook. The extensive preplanning actually hurt them.


Interesting but I think there is much more to the UK and US being the worst hit. Mainly 2 very unhealthy populations


----------



## Cloo (Jul 7, 2021)

I might drop it for literally popping into corner shop for something,  but otherwise will keep them. In fact have bought some proper medical grade ones for a few upcoming times I'll need to go on tube or otherwise be in one spot in enclosed spaces while numbers are zooming up. Fabric mask will suffice for supermarket. I'm double vaxxed (well,  will be covered by it by 19th) but seems wise until numbers are down again.


----------



## bimble (Jul 7, 2021)

cupid_stunt said:


> We didn't have a plan to deal with a coronavirus pandemic.


Yeah it was for a flu pandemic.









						UK pandemic preparedness
					






					www.gov.uk
				




"Both influenza and the virus that leads to COVID-19 cause respiratory disease and spread in a similar way.. These similarities meant that certain elements of our pandemic preparedness plans were able to be quickly utilised and adapted in our response to COVID-19.
However, there are some important differences between the virus that causes COVID-19 and the virus that causes influenza. As such, not all aspects of the UK’s plans for mitigating an influenza pandemic have been applied to respond to the COVID-19 outbreak."
etc.

Which is not exactly the same as we inexplicably binned it and copied china but close.


----------



## two sheds (Jul 7, 2021)

Mr Retro said:


> No there is not. In the studies posted earlier by Cupid Stunt one of them trots out the hair dresser example yet again.
> 
> You can keep saying that the evidence is clear but it is not. Before healthy people with almost no danger of getting seriously ill or dying were disproportionately scared:
> 
> ...


I'd understood that this was early advice that was then revised. 

Just to confirm, are you suggesting that doctors and nurses (for example) in covid wards should not bother wearing N95 or N99 masks?


----------



## Mr Retro (Jul 7, 2021)

two sheds said:


> I'd understood that this was early advice that was then revised.
> 
> Just to confirm, are you suggesting that doctors and nurses (for example) in covid wards should not bother wearing N95 or N99 masks?


Not at all. I am talking about loose, dirty, much pawed, dropped, cloth face covers


----------



## cupid_stunt (Jul 7, 2021)

Mr Retro said:


> No there is not. In the studies posted earlier by Cupid Stunt one of them trots out the hair dresser example yet again.
> 
> You can keep saying that the evidence is clear but it is not. Before healthy people with almost no danger of getting seriously ill or dying were disproportionately scared:
> 
> ...



Fuck me, you have a cheek, you moaned yesterday that the study covering the 'hair dresser example' was from last year, now you are quoting very early advice from the WHO & Whitty, both of which changed their advice, as more became known about the virus.  

Early on, the thought was transmission occurred mainly from [large] droplets, hence concerns about transmission from surfaces, where the droplets would land. Now it is known the main route of transmission is via aerosols that are so small that buoyant forces overcome gravity, allowing them to stay suspended in the air for long periods. Once airborne transmission became the main focus, face masks became an important defence against it.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Jul 7, 2021)

Cloo said:


> I might drop it for literally popping into corner shop for something,  but otherwise will keep them. In fact have bought some proper medical grade ones for a few upcoming times I'll need to go on tube or otherwise be in one spot in enclosed spaces while numbers are zooming up. Fabric mask will suffice for supermarket. I'm double vaxxed (well,  will be covered by it by 19th) but seems wise until numbers are down again.


What’s the difference between trying to protect the corner shop worker over one in a supermarket?


----------



## Spymaster (Jul 7, 2021)

killer b said:


> sure



And the fewer who wear them, the less effective they become from a transmission perspective?


----------



## two sheds (Jul 7, 2021)

Mr Retro said:


> Not at all. I am talking about loose, dirty, much pawed, dropped, cloth face covers


Then you should be clear about that - it reads (particularly quoting early studies - the only people I've seen quoting them are proper anti-maskers) like you're against masks in principle.


----------



## two sheds (Jul 7, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> And the fewer who wear them, the less effective they become from a transmission perspective?


You're largely right, but even if nobody else is wearing one amongst 200 people in Sainsbury's then it's still valuable (a) in case you're vulnerable and other people have got it (b) in case you've got it and other people haven't and (c) to remind people that the virus is still around. It's likely however to attract some abuse so I'm not sure people will indeed do it.


----------



## glitch hiker (Jul 7, 2021)

I voted maybe even though I'm generally for it. I like to think I will, mainly on buses, but at the same time I don't look forward to dealing with arseholes or the fact I could be the only one on the bus, making it somewhat pointless I guess


----------



## Mr Retro (Jul 7, 2021)

cupid_stunt said:


> Fuck me, you have a cheek, you moaned yesterday that the study covering the 'hair dresser example' was from last year, now you are quoting very early advice from the WHO & Whitty, both of which changed their advice, as more became known about the virus.
> 
> Early on, the thought was transmission occurred mainly from [large] droplets, hence concerns about transmission from surfaces, where the droplets would land. Now it is known the main route of transmission is via aerosols that are so small that buoyant forces overcome gravity, allowing them to stay suspended in the air for long periods. Once airborne transmission became the main focus, face masks became an important defence against it.


The hair dressing example is also scientifically worthless and not much else has come out since. Thats my point here. 

Yes they did change, but not because of any science, but because of politics. This is Deborah Cohen on twitter: ‘We had been told by various sources [that the] WHO committee reviewing the evidence had not backed masks but they recommended them due to political lobbying.’


----------



## Aladdin (Jul 7, 2021)

Mr Retro said:


> I’m so relieved and glad it’s being left up to individuals to asses and make their own decisions based on what they perceive as the risk. I believe should have been policy through all this. I won’t wear a mask after 19th. I will respect those who decide they still want to.



Initially I thought you were being sarcastic...but then I realised you're serious.

I'm guessing you picked up your degrees in epidemiology and immunology in the past year....eh?

Probably not.


(The world is full of opinionated thickos who actually believe their  opinions are equal to those of experts....bring on the next ice age and a few meteors. The human race is fucked)


----------



## Badgers (Jul 7, 2021)

Sugar Kane said:


> You find a mask "oppressive"?


  

What a fucking wet blanket


----------



## Aladdin (Jul 7, 2021)

Sugar Kane said:


> As of yesterday the WHO advice was to continue to wear masks and follow all measures.






Mr Retro said:


> No there is not. In the studies posted earlier by Cupid Stunt one of them trots out the hair dresser example yet again.
> 
> You can keep saying that the evidence is clear but it is not. Before healthy people with almost no danger of getting seriously ill or dying were disproportionately scared:
> 
> ...




Just in case you missed the latest WHO video released yesterday Mr Retro..it's quoted especially for you...above your drivel ...


----------



## Spymaster (Jul 7, 2021)

two sheds said:


> You're largely right, but even if nobody else is wearing one amongst 200 people in Sainsbury's then it's still valuable (a) in case you're vulnerable and other people have got it (b) in case you've got it and other people haven't and (c) to remind people that the virus is still around. It's likely however to attract some abuse so I'm not sure people will indeed do it.



Do you really think that's how people will be thinking? You could use the same principles to argue that one person (who has no reason to believe they're infected) should wear a mask in a packed Manchester Arena, where the other 20,000 people are not wearing them. At what point does the proposition become absurd?


----------



## cupid_stunt (Jul 7, 2021)

Mr Retro said:


> The hair dressing example is also scientifically worthless and not much else has come out since. Thats my point here.



You have been provided with various links to peer reviewed scientific studies that have come out since, including a couple of very recent ones, but you have ignored them and just kept on banging your drum, because you'll not back down, even under the weight of evidence showing you are wrong.

You are a snivelling, pig-ignorant swirling waste of human DNA.


----------



## scalyboy (Jul 7, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Mr Retro's taken a lot of stick but a lot of people think the same way and despite the good intentions suggested by many on this thread, I think the reality is going to be that mask use will all but cease in a couple of months unless there's another directive to wear them. The first places they'll go completely is pubs, restaurants, and anywhere else people get pissed. Then as people see fewer and fewer others wearing them they'll decide there's not much point holding-out when hardly anyone else is.


Sadly I suspect this will prove to be correct. ‘Freedom Day’ for some, but not so much for elderly people, those with clinical vulnerabilities or those unable to have the vaccine for medical reasons. 

I expected to return to the office later this month (have been fortunate enough to be able to work from home - and indeed to have retained my job) and was OK with that, until this latest mad decree from Johnson. 

As a ‘clinically extremely vulnerable’ person it will be interesting to see how my employer reacts if I refuse to go into work but continue WFH. It’s the two-hour round trip commute that’s the problem, not the office environment itself. But that suggests my employer can argue they’ve made all reasonable allowances and that the commute is nothing to do with them (which, I guess, it isn’t).

Will contact the union and see what they suggest…


----------



## two sheds (Jul 7, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Do you really think that's how people will be thinking? You could use the same principles to argue that one person (who has no reason to believe they're infected) should wear a mask in a packed Manchester Arena, where the other 20,000 people are not wearing them. At what point does the proposition become absurd?


As someone who's vulnerable it's how I'll be thinking. And my points (a) and (c) are still relevant, while (b) is still fairly relevant because we can't know we haven't got it.

You're talking about how most people will respond and (unfortunately) I agree with you, I'm talking about how I think we should respond.


----------



## Cloo (Jul 7, 2021)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> What’s the difference between trying to protect the corner shop worker over one in a supermarket?



Cos I'm in the supermarket for about half an hour,  I'm in the corner shop averagely for 30 seconds buying some milk.  Also, shop bloke never wears a mask,  is by the open door all day and never seems to have missed a day in last 15 months. It strikes me as low risk and that owner is not desperately concerned about it, and often it's the only time in the day I wear a mask so seems a waste.


----------



## miss direct (Jul 7, 2021)

If someone sneezes at me, I'd much rather be wearing a mask than not. That's just sensible, surely?


----------



## two sheds (Jul 7, 2021)

miss direct said:


> If someone sneezes at me, I'd much rather be wearing a mask than not. That's just sensible, surely?


Yes indeed if there are 200 people in a supermarket and the virus is still rife then fucking right as vulnerable person I'll be wearing a mask.

Eta: I'll also start carrying a phone set to record video if anyone starts hassling me.


----------



## gentlegreen (Jul 7, 2021)

Cloo said:


> Cos I'm in the supermarket for about half an hour,  I'm in the corner shop averagely for 30 seconds buying some milk.  Also, shop bloke never wears a mask,  is by the open door all day and never seems to have missed a day in last 15 months. It strikes me as low risk and that owner is not desperately concerned about it, and often it's the only time in the day I wear a mask so *seems *a waste.



Wear it to show respect for the shop staff if for no one else. And it's now a political statement.
A particularly shameful aspect of the new policy is that Javid lived over his parents' corner shop just down the road from me ...


----------



## miss direct (Jul 7, 2021)

Some of you may live in nice polite areas where it's not that crowded and people keep their distance. That's a very different experience to mine here in a Sheffield suburb that seems to have a high percentage of people with additional needs who are unable for whatever reason to follow guidelines. Along with those people, there are many who are just, well, misguided/thick and aggressive. There was a woman in the bakery screaming at the poor assistant the other day because she'd been asked politely to wait outside. Not uncommon here. All I'm saying is that there are members here having completely different experiences. 

Now how do I get my Mum to keep wearing a mask when shopping?


----------



## Mr Retro (Jul 7, 2021)

cupid_stunt said:


> You have been provided with various links to peer reviewed scientific studies that have come out since, including a couple of very recent ones, but you have ignored them and just kept on banging your drum, because you'll not back down, even under the weight of evidence showing you are wrong.
> 
> You are a snivelling, pig-ignorant swirling waste of human DNA.


You can keep saying evidence is being provided and I can keep saying they are scientifically worthless because they are. But you’re going on ignore because like very many here you are incapable of debate without ad hominem


----------



## bimble (Jul 7, 2021)

gentlegreen said:


> And it's now a political statement.


How do you mean? i'm not disagreeing just wonder what political statement you think a mask will be making after 19th.


----------



## prunus (Jul 7, 2021)

Mr Retro said:


> No there is not. In the studies posted earlier by Cupid Stunt one of them trots out the hair dresser example yet again.
> 
> You can keep saying that the evidence is clear but it is not. Before healthy people with almost no danger of getting seriously ill or dying were disproportionately scared:
> 
> ...



I think you might be misinterpreting the significance of the three quotes you list.

The first is about protecting the _wearer_ - the point about wearing a mask is to protect other people from your infection (any side benefit of protection for you is just that, a side benefit).  The point is not to protect you.  It's to prevent transmission from you.

The second is saying there is no evidence, at the start of the pandemic, that mask wearing has an effect on Covid.  This was true in the limited sense that the pandemic had just started, we hadn't had time to gather the evidence.  Absence of evidence and all that.  There was ample ample evidence even at that time from many RCTs and case-controlled studies that mask-wearing limits transmission of flu, TB, SARS and other respiratory infections.  There was no reason to assume that Covid would be different, we just didn't know for sure at the time.  It was an unhelpful thing for him to say, even though accurate, as demonstrated by your (and presumably other people's) misunderstanding of it to support a position damaging to society.

The third is largely tautologous - as the main point of wearing a mask is to protect others if you have an infection, then obviously if you don't have an infection it can't have that effect.  The point is you don't necessarily know when you have an infection - so you wear it all the time, just in case.  If you could know unambigously when you had an infection, say your nose turned green or something, then you'd just isolate completely and wouldn't need to wear a mask to go out, as you wouldn't be going out.

The Danmask-19 study a) again only examined the effect on wearers - which I stress again is not the point and anyway b) as you say it was statistically significantly inconclusive, however with leanings towards suggesting a protective effect even for the wearer - non-mask wearers were 1.17 times more likely to catch the virus in the one month of the study period (ie mask-wearers were infected less often, but not less often enough in their sampling to be reasonably certain the difference wasn't due to chance).  (It also did not control for differential behaviour in masked and non-masked controls, which was probably its greatest weakness - everybody has probably personally observed the well-documented tendency to behave less risk-aversely when masked, however hard one tries not to).

If you want to read studies, search Pubmed for "face masks respiratory virus" or similar.  You'll find many many studies and meta-analyses that all say face masks reduce transmission of respiratory viruses.  As surely you'd assume they would anyway!  Virus comes out in droplets and aerosols from mouth and nose - cover mouth and nose with a material that can capture and or slow down ejection of those droplets - less virus gets out less far into the environment.  Or you could just believe me - I'm not lying and I'm not wrong.

There's no shame in realising you might have been led to erroneous conclusions, it's been difficult and scary and complex for everyone; it's better to be right now than continue to hold out in a wrong position.  Please wear a mask.


----------



## Aladdin (Jul 7, 2021)

Mr Retro said:


> You can keep saying evidence is being provided and I can keep saying they are scientifically worthless because they are. But you’re going on ignore because like very many here you are incapable of debate without ad hominem



You really are ignorant in the truest meaning of the word.
It's quite sad.


----------



## kalidarkone (Jul 7, 2021)

bimble said:


> Theory: In 2 weeks time Waitrose will be majority masks, voluntarily, tescos round the corner will be much less. Hope i'm wrong.


You are right! This is the reason why I started shopping at Waitrose more frequently last year. It was also the only supermarket that operated a queue system to get in.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Jul 7, 2021)

Mr Retro said:


> You can keep saying evidence is being provided and I can keep saying they are scientifically worthless because they are. But you’re going on ignore because like very many here you are incapable of debate without ad hominem



So,  peer reviewed scientific studies are worthless, because a worthless pig-ignorant twat says they are, okey dokey.   

Glad I've made it to your ignore list, like everyone else, I'll take that as a badge of honour.


----------



## LDC (Jul 7, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> I disagree with your take on the wearing of masks but this bit is true. U75 have many good intentioned folk for a variety of reasons but out there in the real world, folk will ditch the masks as soon as they won't get in trouble for doing so.



I think that's also true on a wider level. It feels like that outside here and similar groups in real life most people are happy for the restrictions to be lifted on the 19th and just want things 'back to normal'. That's the overriding impression I'm getting from loads of people.


----------



## gentlegreen (Jul 7, 2021)

kalidarkone said:


> It was also the only supermarket that operated a queue system to get in.


I hadn't thought about that - I hope Aldi and Tesco don't drop their guard as much as to ease up on that too much ...


----------



## gentlegreen (Jul 7, 2021)

bimble said:


> How do you mean? i'm not disagreeing just wonder what political statement you think a mask will be making after 19th.


To be fair, I won't be deliberately walking past the "flag pub" wearing a mask ... it's more of a gesture of support for shop staff and vulnerable people who might feel self-conscious about wearing one.

... as well now because I'm 61 years old and have survived unscathed this far ...


----------



## Aladdin (Jul 7, 2021)

Cloo said:


> Cos I'm in the supermarket for about half an hour,  I'm in the corner shop averagely for 30 seconds buying some milk.  Also, shop bloke never wears a mask,  is by the open door all day and never seems to have missed a day in last 15 months. It strikes me as low risk and that owner is not desperately concerned about it, and often it's the only time in the day I wear a mask so seems a waste.



So shop bloke is one of the lucky ones....there are people walking around having had covid with absolutely no symptoms. They discover they've had it after others get it and they're deemed close enough contacts to be tested.

Asymptomatic covid has been a problem from day 1.
Not saying your friendly shop bloke had it....but the fact he hasnt been off sick doesnt mean anything. 

It's irrelevant. 

Fact is the delta variant is rife in the UK. And it would make a fuckton of sense to shut it down as opposed to allowing it spread.


----------



## gentlegreen (Jul 7, 2021)

And the whole mask thing from the government suggests that spreading is exactly what they want - in addition to hoping that a "light" dose won't "optically" harm the vaccinated ...


----------



## two sheds (Jul 7, 2021)

My mind was concentrated over the weekend. An ex-neighbour came back on a visit and said he was buying myself and couple of neighbours a takeawayl. He was asked whether he knew where the restaurant was and he looked at me pointedly and said "Arthur will come with me". I felt somewhat pressganged (my own fault, I do tend to go along with things). 

We got into the car I put a mask on and he said "I can't find my mask". At that point I should have said "ok off you go then" but didn't. We got to the restaurant and he found his mask and wore it inside. Then took it off again when he got outside. 

He's from Bristol where they have a lot of cases, I've been isolating pretty well 100% for over a year and intend to continue. His work means he's mixing with the public - admittedly having regular tests. 

He's got form for this sort of stuff I have to say and I'm going to be a lot more wary next time. It really felt as if he was deciding for me that I wasn't isolating any more.


----------



## bimble (Jul 7, 2021)

christ. i just looked at daily mail comments again. I know i know not representative of anything etc but, all are furious about track & trace isolation continuing into august and shouting that they've deleted the App and freed themselves that way.


----------



## gentlegreen (Jul 7, 2021)

two sheds said:


> He's got form for this sort of stuff I have to say and I'm going to be a lot more wary next time. It really felt as if he was deciding for me that I wasn't isolating any more.


As I was twice-vaccinated, I felt able to visit my family last month, but I will be thinking carefully over the near future - my sister works in M&S .. my BIL has to do regular LF tests for his employer ...


----------



## two sheds (Jul 7, 2021)

gentlegreen said:


> As I was twice-vaccinated, I felt able to visit my family last month, but I will be thinking carefully over the near future - my sister works in M&S .. my BIL has to do regular LF tests for his employer ...


Good point - I should have said we've both been vaccinated. Until we find out how that affects delta variant transmission though I'm still isolating.


----------



## killer b (Jul 7, 2021)

prunus said:


> The second is saying there is no evidence, at the start of the pandemic, that mask wearing has an effect on Covid. This was true in the limited sense that the pandemic had just started, we hadn't had time to gather the evidence. Absence of evidence and all that. There was ample ample evidence even at that time from many RCTs and case-controlled studies that mask-wearing limits transmission of flu, TB, SARS and other respiratory infections. There was no reason to assume that Covid would be different, we just didn't know for sure at the time. It was an unhelpful thing for him to say, even though accurate, as demonstrated by your (and presumably other people's) misunderstanding of it to support a position damaging to society.


One of the reasons for the politicians and medics saying early on that there was little benefit to the public of wearing masks was that there was a massive mask shortage, which meant even medics working with covid patients struggled to get hold of the correct PPE - the additional strain of the general public rushing to buy up whatever stocks of masks were available would have collapsed the supply lines completely. 

The change in advice happened not just because of the emergence of evidence showing there was a benefit, but because production had caught up and the masks had actually become available. So there was a political aspect to the change in advice - just in the opposite direction to the one Mr Retro imagines.


----------



## gentlegreen (Jul 7, 2021)

bimble said:


> christ. i just looked at daily mail comments again. I know i know not representative of anything etc but, all are furious about track & trace isolation continuing into august and shouting that they've deleted the App and freed themselves that way.


I confess I don't have the app on my phone for a variety of reasons - some technical - though I'm thinking I might install it for my own interest - though if I'm surrounded by unmasked people and not wearing medical-grade protection I might actually *need *to know...


----------



## Aladdin (Jul 7, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> I think that's also true on a wider level. It feels like that outside here and similar groups in real life most people are happy for the restrictions to be lifted on the 19th and just want things 'back to normal'. That's the overriding impression I'm getting from loads of people.





Loads of people will turn around and ask why their government didn't stay the course when the "Sigma"* variant hits.


* a so far non existent covid variant that is vaccine resistant and more deadly variant with an r value of 20.


----------



## lazythursday (Jul 7, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Looks like some of these work out to around £5/mask.
> 
> Seriously?


You think that's expensive? They're reusable, not throwaway - I've spent more than that on masks in the past. You get what you pay for, in terms of filtration abilities and therefore level of protection. 

Though this 'smart' one Active+ Halo Smart Mask Black costing £150 is taking it all a bit too far.


----------



## Aladdin (Jul 7, 2021)

gentlegreen said:


> And the whole mask thing from the government suggests that spreading is exactly what they want - in addition to hoping that a "light" dose won't "optically" harm the vaccinated ...



Yep. They started with a policy of driving herd immunity last year until Bozo got covid. Now they're back to that.
Maybe Bozo will get the delta variant...as a breakthrough.


----------



## prunus (Jul 7, 2021)

killer b said:


> One of the reasons for the politicians and medics saying early on that there was little benefit to the public of wearing masks was that there was a massive mask shortage, which meant even medics working with covid patients struggled to get hold of the correct PPE - the additional strain of the general public rushing to buy up whatever stocks of masks were available would have collapsed the supply lines completely.
> 
> The change in advice happened not just because of the emergence of evidence showing there was a benefit, but because production had caught up and the masks had actually become available. So there was a political aspect to the change in advice - just in the opposite direction to the one Mr Retro imagines.



Good point.  So it was sophistry really - saying something technically true (due to the fact that no studies had been done) while knowing people would misinterpret absence of evidence as evidence of absence for political ends.  

Why did we have to end up with these fuckers in charge at this time of all times?


----------



## gentlegreen (Jul 7, 2021)

Sugar Kane said:


> Loads of people will turn around and ask why their government didn't stay the course when the "Sigma"* variant hits.
> 
> 
> * a so far non existent covid variant that is vaccine resistant and more deadly variant with an r value of 20.


Rest assured it'll get blamed on a reservoir in a part of the world where they can't get vaccines...


----------



## Yossarian (Jul 7, 2021)

I'm glad we're unlikely to return to the situation very early in the pandemic, when almost the only people wearing masks were Asian and it made them targets for abuse.


----------



## kalidarkone (Jul 7, 2021)

Cloo said:


> I might drop it for literally popping into corner shop for something,  but otherwise will keep them. In fact have bought some proper medical grade ones for a few upcoming times I'll need to go on tube or otherwise be in one spot in enclosed spaces while numbers are zooming up. Fabric mask will suffice for supermarket. I'm double vaxxed (well,  will be covered by it by 19th) but seems wise until numbers are down again.


So potentially you could pass something on to someone in the corner shop? Being double vaxxed protects you but not necessarily other people. Imo if you would wear them on the tube then you should wear them in the corner shop.


----------



## killer b (Jul 7, 2021)

prunus said:


> Good point.  So it was sophistry really - saying something technically true (due to the fact that no studies had been done) while knowing people would misinterpret absence of evidence as evidence of absence for political ends.
> 
> Why did we have to end up with these fuckers in charge at this time of all times?


In the absence of sufficient PPE, it's difficult to know what else they might have done tbh. We all saw what happened to just the stocks of toilet roll and pasta - suppressing demand for masks until enough were available was pretty essential to keep the health service viable.


----------



## Cloo (Jul 7, 2021)

OK, I said 'might' and everyone has made a good case for me being consistent in this.


----------



## Supine (Jul 7, 2021)

So the WHO, BMA, MHRA, FDA and CDC all say masks are proven to be beneficial but some bloke called Mr Retro on U75 says there is no evidence. I just dont know who to believe anymore!!!


----------



## Aladdin (Jul 7, 2021)

Our head of public health (Ireland) keeps saying if you're fully vaccinated you can meet up with other fully vaccinated people but that masks and social distancing still need to be done because < 1/4 of the population is fully vaccinated.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Jul 7, 2021)

killer b said:


> One of the reasons for the politicians and medics saying early on that there was little benefit to the public of wearing masks was that there was a massive mask shortage, which meant even medics working with covid patients struggled to get hold of the correct PPE - the additional strain of the general public rushing to buy up whatever stocks of masks were available would have collapsed the supply lines completely.
> 
> The change in advice happened not just because of the emergence of evidence showing there was a benefit, but because production had caught up and the masks had actually become available. So there was a political aspect to the change in advice - just in the opposite direction to the one Mr Retro imagines.





killer b said:


> In the absence of sufficient PPE, it's difficult to know what else they might have done tbh. We all saw what happened to just the stocks of toilet roll and pasta - suppressing demand for masks until enough were available was pretty essential to keep the health service viable.


Any kind of face covering is better than none


----------



## killer b (Jul 7, 2021)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> Any kind of face covering is better than none


this is true, but everyone knew as we were fashioning masks out of old t-shirts that they weren't as good at doing the job as the real thing. official advice to wear a face covering would increase demand for medical facemasks, and there weren't any.


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Jul 7, 2021)

Cloo said:


> Cos I'm in the supermarket for about half an hour,  I'm in the corner shop averagely for 30 seconds buying some milk.  Also, shop bloke never wears a mask,  is by the open door all day and never seems to have missed a day in last 15 months. It strikes me as low risk and that owner is not desperately concerned about it, and often it's the only time in the day I wear a mask so seems a waste.


If you saw someone like me in there wearing a mask you would though? The scenario you described is the same as my work place. My boss is a fuckwit when it comes to mask wearing, like the owner of your corner shop, the rest of us working there are more keen on customers wearing masks though and we ourselves wear them all day.


----------



## Aladdin (Jul 7, 2021)

I think the message needs to get out there that "getting back to normal " as in life precovid...wont happen for a long time.

And that the only way to stop a virus is break the transmission.  


So ... be the one to wear the mask when everyone else is being a flaming matchdick.


----------



## prunus (Jul 7, 2021)

killer b said:


> In the absence of sufficient PPE, it's difficult to know what else they might have done tbh. We all saw what happened to just the stocks of toilet roll and pasta - suppressing demand for masks until enough were available was pretty essential to keep the health service viable.



Told the truth…?  Nah, sorry, silly idea. That would have involved asking people to make personal sacrifices for the common good, which is kryptonite to these cunts.


----------



## killer b (Jul 7, 2021)

prunus said:


> Told the truth…?  Nah, sorry, silly idea. That would have involved asking people to make personal sacrifices for the common good, which is kryptonite to these cunts.


They were fighting in the supermarket aisles for the last pack of bogrolls. You can understand why there may have been some reticence from creating similar scenes over facemasks. Maybe it might have worked though, IDK.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Jul 7, 2021)

killer b said:


> this is true, but everyone knew as we were fashioning masks out of old t-shirts that they weren't as good at doing the job as the real thing. official advice to wear a face covering would increase demand for medical facemasks, and there weren't any.


Yeah, but as I've posted elsewhere, non-frontline NHS workers were ordered not to wear masks of any kind. Ordered.


----------



## maomao (Jul 7, 2021)

killer b said:


> They were fighting in the supermarket aisles for the last pack of bogrolls.


You mean the supermarket supply chain was unable to respond quickly to an overall fairly minor change in demand.


----------



## killer b (Jul 7, 2021)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> Yeah, but as I've posted elsewhere, non-frontline NHS workers were ordered not to wear masks of any kind. Ordered.


I don't remember that - maybe early on in the pandemic when everything was totally insane, but I recall at that point medical grade masks were changing hands for ludicrous sums.


----------



## killer b (Jul 7, 2021)

maomao said:


> You mean the supermarket supply chain was unable to respond quickly to an overall fairly minor change in demand.


Absolutely. And people fighting in the supermarket was the result of them struggling to respond to that minor change in demand, for something as insignificant as bog roll.


----------



## maomao (Jul 7, 2021)

killer b said:


> Absolutely. And people fighting in the supermarket was the result of them struggling to respond to that minor change in demand, for something as insignificant as bog roll.


I don't remember any fights. I'm not saying there weren't a couple of videos on Twitter, I'm saying there wasn't any actual violence or even much shouting.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Jul 7, 2021)

killer b said:


> I don't remember that - maybe early on in the pandemic when everything was totally insane, but I recall at that point medical grade masks were changing hands for ludicrous sums at that point.


It happened at my son's hospital and remained true until there was a supply of official masks available. 'Infection control' made up the rules as they went along, in line with government diktat.


----------



## Saul Goodman (Jul 7, 2021)

killer b said:


> Absolutely. And people fighting in the supermarket was the result of them struggling to respond to that minor change in demand, for something as insignificant as bog roll.


Insignificant? Remember that next time you race to the toilet with explosive diarrhoea, only to discover that all you have is an empty cardboard tube to clean up with.


----------



## Aladdin (Jul 7, 2021)

killer b said:


> I don't remember that - maybe early on in the pandemic when everything was totally insane, but I recall at that point medical grade masks were changing hands for ludicrous sums.



It definitely happened over here....at the beginning when they were saving the ppe they had for staff working with seriously ill covid patients.


----------



## Aladdin (Jul 7, 2021)

Saul Goodman said:


> Insignificant? Remember that next time you race to the toilet with explosive diarrhoea, only to discover that all you have is an empty cardboard tube to clean up with.




There's always a facecloth.....


Or facemask.



😁


----------



## Riklet (Jul 7, 2021)

Right now I get the bus for short trips and go in local shops and takeaways.. some have the door open and good ventilation and some don't.  I think they should be forced to keep doors and windows open personally, probably more effective than masks even.

I always wear a mask indoors now (ffp2 decent one) and I dont intend to change that. Feels like some protection. And post-covid I'll wear one if I feel ill like they do in Asian countries (as a result of the 1918 pandemic apparently). Cant really imagine going to the doctors, dentists, hospital and not wearing a mask in the future either...

A very important thing to note is that no one really knows which individual is at risk or highly at risk beyond a point. 90 somethings have been asymptomatic, 30 somethings have died and 20 somethings have got long covid.


----------



## kalidarkone (Jul 7, 2021)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> It happened at my son's hospital and remained true until there was a supply of official masks available. 'Infection control' made up the rules as they went along, in line with government diktat.


Same at my hospital....and a nurse tried to discipline me for wearing hospital scrubs rather than my own scrub uniform (I didn't want to take it home).


----------



## killer b (Jul 7, 2021)

maomao said:


> I don't remember any fights. I'm not saying there weren't a couple of videos on Twitter, I'm saying there wasn't any actual violence or even much shouting.


The shelves were totally empty of bog roll - partly that was because of those videos on twitter creating further panic. Either way, you can understand trying to prevent a similar run on facemasks when they were necessary to keep medical staff safe, not just used to wipe your arse.


----------



## Aladdin (Jul 7, 2021)

kalidarkone said:


> Same at my hospital....and a nurse tried to discipline me for wearing hospital scrubs rather than my own scrub uniform (I didn't want to take it home).



My brother still goes to work in one set of clothes and changes into scrubs for work.


----------



## Aladdin (Jul 7, 2021)

killer b said:


> The shelves were totally empty of bog roll - partly that was because of those videos on twitter creating further panic. Either way, you can understand trying to prevent a similar run on facemasks when they were necessary to keep medical staff safe, not just used to wipe your arse.




Just goes to show how people dont know their arse from their nose...


----------



## maomao (Jul 7, 2021)

killer b said:


> The shelves were totally empty of bog roll - partly that was because of those videos on twitter creating further panic. Either way, you can understand trying to prevent a similar run on facemasks when they were necessary to keep medical staff safe, not just used to wipe your arse.


I'm not disputing that panic buying happened. I'm disputing the idea that there widespread fights over it.


----------



## kalidarkone (Jul 7, 2021)

Sugar Kane said:


> My brother still goes to work in one set of clothes and changes into scrubs for work.


Yes I've always done that, it's good practice from an infection control point of view  and I like the boundary between my time and work time signified by what clothes I'm wearing. 

Hospital staff wear "smart scrubs" they are our personal uniform and we bring them in and take them home, where as the docs and theatre staff use the hospital scrubs that go to the laundry at the end of the day.

We now have special scrub bags to transport our uniforms and they go straight into the washing machine, bag and all.

Apologies for the fucking boring details 😆


----------



## two sheds (Jul 7, 2021)

lazythursday said:


> Have just bought some new masks from here Face masks and face mask filters for your protection | AirPop - the best in Which? tests - as am determined to carry on using public transport because avoiding it earlier in the pandemic had a huge impact on my quality of life, so want to protect myself the best I can. Otherwise though, I will carry on wearing mask in the few shops I go to and otherwise will keep outside, until case rates drop to a level I'm comfortable with.


Ordered a couple - ta for that


----------



## killer b (Jul 7, 2021)

maomao said:


> I'm not disputing that panic buying happened. I'm disputing the idea that there widespread fights over it.


I didn't say there was widespread fights. There only needed to be a couple to turbo charge to panic buying


----------



## scalyboy (Jul 7, 2021)

Isn’t it a shocking state of affairs that those of us who intend to continue wearing masks are anticipating having to deal with abuse from random strangers?
This scenario hadn’t occurred to me until now but I think it’s quite likely to happen; I don’t know how I’ll react, but probably not well, going by one or two previous interactions I’ve had with strangers not wearing masks on public transport.

I think my reaction will be along the lines of “why the f*** is it any of your business what I wear on my face you f***ing weirdo c*nt?”
Probably not ideal 😂

But why should it be anyone’s business? How does it harm them if a stranger is wearing a mask? So weird.


----------



## killer b (Jul 7, 2021)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> It happened at my son's hospital and remained true until there was a supply of official masks available. 'Infection control' made up the rules as they went along, in line with government diktat.


Ah, I didn't realise you meant in hospitals. It was a mess, no mistake - but ensuring the PPE was available for frontline medical staff was always going to be their priority.


----------



## two sheds (Jul 7, 2021)

kalidarkone said:


> Yes I've always done that, it's good practice from an infection control point of view  and I like the boundary between my time and work time signified by what clothes I'm wearing.
> 
> Hospital staff wear "smart scrubs" they are our personal uniform and we bring them in and take them home, where as the docs and theatre staff use the hospital scrubs that go to the laundry at the end of the day.
> 
> ...


Nah, fucking interesting details


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Jul 7, 2021)

scalyboy said:


> Isn’t it a shocking state of affairs that those of us who intend to continue wearing masks are anticipating having to deal with abuse from random strangers?
> This scenario hadn’t occurred to me until now but I think it’s quite likely to happen; I don’t know how I’ll react, but probably not well, going by one or two previous interactions I’ve had with strangers not wearing masks on public transport.
> 
> I think my reaction will be along the lines of “why the f*** is it any of your business what I wear on my face you f***ing weirdo c*nt?”
> ...


It’s because of a carefully engineered culture war, where these dickheads view masks as a step towards pinko commie marxist liberals from London taking away their right to be racist.


----------



## Riklet (Jul 7, 2021)

Loads of people will be wearing masks, don't get worried about what a few dickheads say and think. Who cares, life goes on.


----------



## quimcunx (Jul 7, 2021)

Yes I will, but I might get one of those masks that protects me, rather than a mask that mostly only protects others from me, so if I'm somewhere others are masked up I'll wear the social one and if most others aren't bothering wear the N95/99/whatever one.

Whether I'll actually do that or just find myself wearing masks less and less because no one else is I don't know. I wore a mask on the tube the last week we were in the office last year and people looked at me with alarm.  I felt very conspicuous.  It is not easy for social animals like us to go against the grain.

I think I'll start up my grocery deliveries again so to reduce shop visits and time in shops.


----------



## sojourner (Jul 7, 2021)

killer b said:


> One of the reasons for the politicians and medics saying early on that there was little benefit to the public of wearing masks was that there was a massive mask shortage, which meant even medics working with covid patients struggled to get hold of the correct PPE - the additional strain of the general public rushing to buy up whatever stocks of masks were available would have collapsed the supply lines completely.
> 
> The change in advice happened not just because of the emergence of evidence showing there was a benefit, but because production had caught up and the masks had actually become available. So there was a political aspect to the change in advice - just in the opposite direction to the one Mr Retro imagines.


I have taken one of the gammons in work through this, step by step, every time he bellows on about masks not working to prevent spread. Every single time. And he continues to repeat the same line. Christ but it's tiresome.


----------



## killer b (Jul 7, 2021)

sojourner said:


> I have taken one of the gammons in work through this, step by step, every time he bellows on about masks not working to prevent spread. Every single time. And he continues to repeat the same line. Christ but it's tiresome.


I think a lot of this stuff just gets wiped - it was only when I was thinking carefully about what actually happened last spring that I even remembered all that hoo-ha about PPE procurement and facemask stuff. If you're actually ideologically committed to forgetting it I'd imagine it's pretty much impossible to dial it back up.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Jul 7, 2021)

killer b said:


> Ah, I didn't realise you meant in hospitals. It was a mess, no mistake - but ensuring the PPE was available for frontline medical staff was always going to be their priority.


My point was that they were actively preventing other staff from taking preventative measures. They also lied about what PPE was advisable for various grades of porters until there was an abundance of the stuff. So NHS authorities cannot always be trusted, which is a sad state of affairs, even if not totally unexpected.


----------



## David Clapson (Jul 7, 2021)

I've not found a N95/99 mask which works well with my large specs.


----------



## 8ball (Jul 7, 2021)

I think in any places where squidged up near people, or very squidged if outdoors, I might keep using a mask.  

Or if feeling poorly.  No need to pass on colds/flu etc.


----------



## mr steev (Jul 7, 2021)

scalyboy said:


> Isn’t it a shocking state of affairs that those of us who intend to continue wearing masks are anticipating having to deal with abuse from random strangers?
> This scenario hadn’t occurred to me until now but I think it’s quite likely to happen;



Yeah, I think it is going to become quite divisive.
I was in Aldi the other day and some maskless alpha male swaggered past me, knocking his shoulder against mine. Maybe he couldn't help walking like a twat and maybe he didn't realise the size of his steroid pumped arms, but it felt to me like the sort of thing cocky pricks do in pubs and quite confrontational


----------



## miss direct (Jul 7, 2021)

scalyboy said:


> Isn’t it a shocking state of affairs that those of us who intend to continue wearing masks are anticipating having to deal with abuse from random strangers?
> This scenario hadn’t occurred to me until now but I think it’s quite likely to happen; I don’t know how I’ll react, but probably not well, going by one or two previous interactions I’ve had with strangers not wearing masks on public transport.
> 
> I think my reaction will be along the lines of “why the f*** is it any of your business what I wear on my face you f***ing weirdo c*nt?”
> ...


If it happens to me, I intend to tell them I have a terminal illness. I may vary which illness. Just to shut them up and hopefully make them think about reasons why people may continue to use masks.


----------



## 8ball (Jul 7, 2021)

mr steev said:


> Yeah, I think it is going to become quite divisive.
> I was in Aldi the other day and some maskless alpha male swaggered past me, knocking his shoulder against mine. Maybe he couldn't help walking like a twat and maybe he didn't realise the size of his steroid pumped arms, but it felt to me like the sort of thing cocky pricks do in pubs and quite confrontational



I’ve noticed these people on public transport already, though they are not getting radgey with anyone, just refusing to wear the things and emanating an air of  mild arseyness.


----------



## 8ball (Jul 7, 2021)

miss direct said:


> If it happens to me, I intend to tell them I have a terminal illness. I may vary which illness. Just to shut them up and hopefully make them think about reasons why people may continue to use masks.



Just stand quite close and tell them you’ve got anthrax.


----------



## killer b (Jul 7, 2021)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> My point was that they were actively preventing other staff from taking preventative measures. They also lied about what PPE was advisable for various grades of porters until there was an abundance of the stuff.


Yes, I know they did. There was a lot of really grim utilitarian decisions made on the hoof which calculated some peoples lives and wellbeing were more important than others.


----------



## Riklet (Jul 7, 2021)

miss direct said:


> If it happens to me, I intend to tell them I have a terminal illness. I may vary which illness. Just to shut them up and hopefully make them think about reasons why people may continue to use masks.



I'll just tell them I've got covid but it's not too bad and I dont believe in self isolating because it should always be a personal choice


----------



## cupid_stunt (Jul 7, 2021)

Riklet said:


> I'll just tell them I've got covid but it's not too bad and I dont believe in self isolating because it should always be a personal choice



I think I'll start coughing, then lower my face mask, and say, 'sorry, I didn't hear you, what was you saying?'


----------



## klang (Jul 7, 2021)

killer b said:


> I was talking to a woman the other day who was advocating something like this. 'What's the point in keeping people with altsheimers alive while the economy crumbles! Its madness!'


yes I've heard a lot more of the right-to-live discussion recently. It's the natural continuation of 'so what if Covid kills old folks'. It's expanded into brain injury and learning disabilities.
shows how ultra right wing the denier movement is, for all their 'anti-authoritariaism'  and defending 'freedom'.


----------



## Badgers (Jul 7, 2021)

littleseb said:


> yes I've heard a lot more of the right-to-live discussion recently. It's the natural continuation of 'so what if Covid kills old folks'. It's expanded into brain injury and learning disabilities.
> shows how ultra right wing the denier movement is, for all their 'anti-authoritariaism'  and defending 'freedom'.


They are scum, the shit off my shoe


----------



## klang (Jul 7, 2021)

Badgers said:


> They are scum, the shit off my shoe


they are as they are enabling / normalising a very worrying direction of discussion. it's all so fucking selfish.


----------



## mentalchik (Jul 7, 2021)

maomao said:


> I'm not disputing that panic buying happened. I'm disputing the idea that there widespread fights over it.


We had actual fights over toilet rolls and hand sanitiser where i work


----------



## sojourner (Jul 7, 2021)

killer b said:


> I think a lot of this stuff just gets wiped - it was only when I was thinking carefully about what actually happened last spring that I even remembered all that hoo-ha about PPE procurement and facemask stuff. If you're actually ideologically committed to forgetting it I'd imagine it's pretty much impossible to dial it back up.


Lucky he's got me around to constantly remind him, then. Lucky, lucky ham.


----------



## mentalchik (Jul 7, 2021)

Well this is weird.....am not and never have been an anti- masks/vaxxer/ general crazy covid denier but now find myself in a position opposite it seems, as i really want to ditch the mask........it's a little ironic as we have spent the last 18 months shouldering huge amounts of abuse, aggression and general crazyness trying to get people to wear a mask where i work....we have never stopped people coming in and still give out a couple of boxes of free paper masks everyday....also huge amounts of people cottoned on to the fact if they say they're exempt they just carry on with no comment...

Health workers etc aside most people are not having to wear a mask for 8-9 and above hours a day, having a constantly scabby nose and sore mouth, having difficulty understanding what people are saying and they understanding you, getting really hot when doing anything physical on the shop floor...

as i said, it's ironic having spent all this time trying to get people to wear the fucking things now being in the opposite camp and being called a selfish cunt for wanting to stop wearing one (speaking for myself obviously)


----------



## elbows (Jul 7, 2021)

mentalchik said:


> Well this is weird.....am not and never have been an anti- masks/vaxxer/ general crazy covid denier but now find myself in a position opposite it seems, as i really want to ditch the mask........it's a little ironic as we have spent the last 18 months shouldering huge amounts of abuse, aggression and general crazyness trying to get people to wear a mask where i work....we have never stopped people coming in and still give out a couple of boxes of free paper masks everyday....also huge amounts of people cottoned on to the fact if they say they're exempt they just carry on with no comment...
> 
> Health workers etc aside most people are not having to wear a mask for 8-9 and above hours a day, having a constantly scabby nose and sore mouth, having difficulty understanding what people are saying and they understanding you, getting really hot when doing anything physical on the shop floor...
> 
> as i said, it's ironic having spent all this time trying to get people to wear the fucking things now being in the opposite camp and being called a selfish cunt for wanting to stop wearing one (speaking for myself obviously)



Well there is a difference between wanting to stop wearing a mask, and actually stopping wearing one. And there are differences between stopping wearing one, and encouraging others to do the same.


----------



## mentalchik (Jul 7, 2021)

elbows said:


> Well there is a difference between wanting to stop wearing a mask, and actually stopping wearing one. And there are differences between stopping wearing one, and encouraging others to do the same.


I would never encourage anyone to stop wearing a mask, have never been in 'that' camp.....however i am really conflicted now coz i fucking hate wearing it....after 18 months i haven't got used to it (as i said most people are not wearing a mask 8/9/10 hours a day)sometimes it makes me want to go in a corner and scream....i might well just fudge it and have one but only pull it up when i feel it's neccessary....so i'll just be a selfish cunt....


----------



## elbows (Jul 7, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I heard an interesting podcast about that a little while ago. Essentially, if you were judging on prepandemic planning, you would have guessed, prepandemic, that the UK and the US were among the best-prepared nations on Earth. They ended up two of the worst-hit, most chaotically disorganised nations on Earth. What they lacked, which other places like South Korea, Taiwan, Vietnam, etc, had, was the flexibility to respond swiftly in a fashion that wasn't in the pre-prepared rulebook. The extensive preplanning actually hurt them.



This is one area where I hope that me being a tedious smartarse with knowledge of the subject well before the pandemic can actually help cut through some of the bullshit. Especially because I came out with a lot of this stuff long ago, so I dont get caught in the trap of bullshitters claiming this stuff could only be known with the benefit of hindsight.

It is on the record that at the start I thought this country was especially badly placed to handle this pandemic well. There were many reasons, I will focus on just a few now:

I was familiar with our pandemic plans, They were shit. They were based on the priorities of the establishment in this country, which in many ways boiled down to doing as little as possible apart from anything available on the drugs and vaccines front, and some basic public health messaging.

I have spoken before about how, for example, the UKs response to swine flu was criticised in the official review into the handling of that pandemic. A key complaint was that the response phase that the UK describes as 'contain' is actually not contain. The report said it should more accurately have been called a delay phase. And in my book at best it could be called 'delay and survey', at worst just 'survey'. And exactly the same thing still happens now - whenever there is a threat from a new variant, we claim we are trying to contain it, but mostly we are just surveying the situation and trying to find out how big the problem is and how quickly its growing. Not sincerely trying to stop it growing.

Another variation of these attempts to blame the rigidity of the rulebook rather than the rules baked into such plans being shit and built on shit priorities and bad orthodox attitudes, is the idea that our plan was designed to cope with flu not SARS. But when I've studied our plans, they would not cope any better with a bad (1918-like) flu pandemic either!

Another problem with that narrative is that the UK authorities actually engaged in a series of pandemic simulation exercises, and the results appear to have been so bad that they suppressed the results of the exercises. So they knew well before this pandemic that our plans were inappropriate to deal with a threat beyond a certain magnitude. And I believe at least one of those exercises even involved a theoretical SARS-like virus!

Also the running down of healthcare capacity gave us a disadvantage compared to the likes of Germany. Bed numbers matter.

Our plans were shit because they were based on the usual cold calculations the establishment orthodoxy in this nation treats as the gospel. Yes we were slow to shift from them, and the desire to return to them as much as possible as soon as possible has never left our establishment figures. Thinking the unthinkable and acting beyond our political and economic comfort zone was a very temporary phase of our response, one the authorities could not wait to get away from.

We also have a history of using the gains that vaccination offers for really shitty purposes, exploiting the new balance. For example over many years our governments, including new labour, decided to make our influenza vaccination programme larger and more far-reaching. But part of the prize that offered in their eyes was that they could reduce hospital capacity gradually over the years, because they figured vaccines could do some of the heavy lifting so they could get away with skimping on hospital surge capacity!


----------



## quimcunx (Jul 7, 2021)

Riklet said:


> I'll just tell them I've got covid but it's not too bad and I dont believe in self isolating because it should always be a personal choice


Then cough at them.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Jul 7, 2021)

mentalchik said:


> I would never encourage anyone to stop wearing a mask, have never been in 'that' camp.....however i am really conflicted now coz i fucking hate wearing it....after 18 months i haven't got used to it (as i said most people are not wearing a mask 8/9/10 hours a day)sometimes it makes me want to go in a corner and scream....i might well just fudge it and have one but only pull it up when i feel it's neccessary....so i'll just be a selfish cunt....


I don’t think anybody wants to wear one really. But seriously, come on, it isn’t that bad to do so.


----------



## elbows (Jul 7, 2021)

mentalchik said:


> I would never encourage anyone to stop wearing a mask, have never been in 'that' camp.....however i am really conflicted now coz i fucking hate wearing it....after 18 months i haven't got used to it (as i said most people are not wearing a mask 8/9/10 hours a day)sometimes it makes me want to go in a corner and scream....i might well just fudge it and have one but only pull it up when i feel it's neccessary....so i'll just be a selfish cunt....



It would be better if you could at least postpone this.

Because we are in a really large wave of a really nasty variant that is more transmissible, the number of people infected at any particular moment in time is reaching ridiculous levels. So the timing of dropping masks now is spectacularly poor.

Even if you only waited till the schools broke up for summer holidays (already the case in Scotland) then at least the results of your actions (or rather you and many others combined) will be somewhat compensated for by all the behavioural & contact mixing pattern changes that happen during school holidays.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 7, 2021)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> I don’t think anybody wants to wear one really. But seriously, come on, it isn’t that bad to do so.


I do, I think they’re great


----------



## elbows (Jul 7, 2021)

Following on from what I just said, if people think they are going to wear masks less then I'd at least encourage them to try to compensate for that in other ways. Assume your actions are not without consequence, and try really hard to sacrifice something else instead, if you really cannot bear masks any longer. ie the idea we can return to normality right now is bogus, so if you want the normality of not wearing a mask, be prepared to give up some other normal activity to compensate.


----------



## killer b (Jul 7, 2021)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> I don’t think anybody wants to wear one really. But seriously, come on, it isn’t that bad to do so.


how many hours a day do you have to wear a mask for?


----------



## mentalchik (Jul 7, 2021)

Blimey never been on the side that is seen as wrong.....and i can tell you 100% that where i work hardly anyone coming into the shop will be wearing a mask once the restriction goes...and before you all start shouting , credit me with my local knowlege please.....and am glad that people find them not that bad to wear but 45 hours a week, no i hate it and will and have put up with it but still hate it

Am actually quite taken aback at the vehemence of people's opinions....i thought it would be completely opposite considering the massive effort it's taken to get people to wear them in the first place


----------



## mentalchik (Jul 7, 2021)

elbows said:


> Following on from what I just said, if people think they are going to wear masks less then I'd at least encourage them to try to compensate for that in other ways. Assume your actions are not without consequence, and try really hard to sacrifice something else instead, if you really cannot bear masks any longer. ie the idea we can return to normality right now is bogus, so if you want the normality of not wearing a mask, be prepared to give up some other normal activity to compensate.


what sort of normal activity ?


----------



## elbows (Jul 7, 2021)

mentalchik said:


> what sort of normal activity ?



Anything that involves mixing with other people, especially indoors. Mitigation can involve avoiding some of those activities and scenarios, or doing things like massively improving the ventilation in key indoor environments.

Government advice for business suggests for example that CO2 monitors can be used to ascertain which indoor locations are suffering from a lack of adequate ventilation.


----------



## kalidarkone (Jul 7, 2021)

mentalchik said:


> We had actual fights over toilet rolls and hand sanitiser where i work


Hey you!   lush to see you x


----------



## elbows (Jul 7, 2021)

And frankly one of the perceived advantages of battling this virus in summer is that improving ventilation is considered more viable at this time of year, because people are less likely to be too cold. We have a window of opportunity (pun intended) to make the most of that.


----------



## mentalchik (Jul 7, 2021)

elbows said:


> Anything that involves mixing with other people, especially indoors. Mitigation can involve avoiding some of those activities and scenarios, or doing things like massively improving the ventilation in key indoor environments.
> 
> Government advice for business suggests for example that CO2 monitors can be used to ascertain which indoor locations are suffering from a lack of adequate ventilation.


I go to work and come home.....didn't go out before so that won't change...


----------



## elbows (Jul 7, 2021)

See if you can have a positive practical impact on your workplace environment then.


----------



## mentalchik (Jul 7, 2021)

kalidarkone said:


> Hey you!   lush to see you x


and you too....thought i'd dip in and see whats what.....


----------



## purenarcotic (Jul 7, 2021)

krink said:


> I'm going to take a wait and see approach. For me it's not so much the masks but having to sit next to strangers on the buses again - that's going to be weird! I'm definitely still going to use hand sanitiser.



It’s an airborne disease, the risk of catching it through touch is far lower than through breathing it in. You’d be more protected wearing a mask and forgoing sanitising altogether (not that sanitising is a bad thing).


----------



## mentalchik (Jul 7, 2021)

elbows said:


> See if you can have a positive practical impact on your workplace environment then.


Not sure exactly what you mean but if it's wearing a mask i'll be a tiny minority....as i said (before people started piling in) i'm conflicted about it at the moment so haven't entirely decided and not whining or anything but not sure a lot of people get just how fucking awful this last 18 months has been for those of us working in supermarkets


----------



## Badgers (Jul 7, 2021)

It will be fine 









						Lambda variant: What is the new strain of Covid detected in the UK?
					

Scientists are concerned the latest strain could be more infectious and resistant to vaccines




					www.independent.co.uk
				






> How widespread is the Lambda variant in the UK?
> 
> A total of eight cases have been detected in the UK, as of the latest update on 2 July - although this is likely to be an underestimate.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Jul 7, 2021)

killer b said:


> how many hours a day do you have to wear a mask for?


8 or so, sometimes more, depending how long my shift at work is.


----------



## Badgers (Jul 7, 2021)

killer b said:


> how many hours a day do you have to wear a mask for?


I am around 10-11 hours a day at the moment


----------



## mentalchik (Jul 7, 2021)

Well i am really doing some serious thinking about it now....only plus side is we will no longer have the daily stress with the public


----------



## kalidarkone (Jul 7, 2021)

mentalchik said:


> Not sure exactly what you mean but if it's wearing a mask i'll be a tiny minority....as i said (before people started piling in) i'm conflicted about it at the moment so haven't entirely decided and not whining or anything but not sure a lot of people get just how fucking awful this last 18 months has been for those of us working in supermarkets


I've not been at work since the end of January and it's been lovely not having to wear a mask for  12.5 hours a day. My skin is loads better.


----------



## mentalchik (Jul 7, 2021)

kalidarkone said:


> I've not been at work since the end of January and it's been lovely not having to wear a mask for  12.5 hours a day. My skin is loads better.


I have a permantly scabby nose (the paper masks are even worse for this but not so hot) mostly wear soft cotton masks......just coming to the end of a week off and it's lovely not having one on nearly every day


----------



## killer b (Jul 7, 2021)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> 8 or so, sometimes more, depending how long my shift at work is.


I only wear one visiting the supermarket and the like, and even just for that limited time sometimes I have to stop what I'm doing and step outside to get some air. I could totally understand people really struggling to do a full shift without having the option of doing that.


----------



## Badgers (Jul 7, 2021)

killer b said:


> I only wear one visiting the supermarket and the like, and even just for that limited time sometimes I have to stop what I'm doing and step outside to get some air. I could totally understand people really struggling to do a full shift without having the option of doing that.


Like doctors and such?


----------



## killer b (Jul 7, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Like doctors and such?


yes?


----------



## Badgers (Jul 7, 2021)

killer b said:


> yes?


Yes


----------



## scifisam (Jul 7, 2021)

Good lord, does it really need stating again that people are different and just because you find wearing a mask to be no problem that must mean it's the same for everyone else? It's such an unempathic way of looking at the world - "everyone is the same as me."

Especially since, if someone genuinely isn't anti-mask and does want to wear one to help stop the spread, why the hell would they pretend they're causing them bother?



beesonthewhatnow said:


> 8 or so, sometimes more, depending how long my shift at work is.



Isn't that only for the last couple of months though, not 18 months?


----------



## Santino (Jul 7, 2021)

Mr Retro Block me, you coward


----------



## cupid_stunt (Jul 7, 2021)

Santino said:


> Mr Retro Block me, you coward



That's too polite, you need to try harder.


----------



## pogofish (Jul 7, 2021)

Poll needs a yes and no option - in some situations I will continue to wear a mask, others not.


----------



## elbows (Jul 7, 2021)

mentalchik said:


> Not sure exactly what you mean but if it's wearing a mask i'll be a tiny minority....as i said (before people started piling in) i'm conflicted about it at the moment so haven't entirely decided and not whining or anything but not sure a lot of people get just how fucking awful this last 18 months has been for those of us working in supermarkets



I meant try to compensate for lack of mask wearing by improving other aspects of the environment such as ventilation.


----------



## existentialist (Jul 7, 2021)

cupid_stunt said:


> That's too polite, you need to try harder.


I think he may have already blocked me, and failed to see my profane outburst 

His Urban75 experience must be becoming quite a lonely one...


----------



## gentlegreen (Jul 7, 2021)

pogofish said:


> Poll needs a yes and no option - in some situations I will continue to wear a mask, others not.


Plus an option for - "would you actually wear a mask even more if anarchy and variants become more of a threat.."


----------



## bimble (Jul 7, 2021)

i very much dislike them everything about it the whole thing, the sensation, the not seeing faces, all of it, but yeah its no big deal for me because have just been sticking them on for shops etc so probably all added up i've been wearing one for a couple of full days of someone else's 18 months, that is a totally different thing.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Jul 7, 2021)

existentialist said:


> I think he may have already blocked me, and failed to see my profane outburst
> 
> His Urban75 experience must be becoming quite a lonely one...



I tried so hard to engage with him, but he wasn't interested, it became clear he's too far down the rabbit hole, so that effort became pointless, the only reasonable option left was disengage with him, and tell him what I thought of him.


----------



## Spymaster (Jul 7, 2021)

bimble said:


> i very much dislike them everything about it the whole thing, the sensation, the not seeing faces, all of it, but yeah its no big deal for me because have just been sticking them on for shops etc so probably all added up i've been wearing one for a couple of full days of someone else's 18 months, that is a totally different thing.



I've only worn them in shops and an issue (apart from steamy specs) has been not being able to see people's lips when they're talking to me. It's surprising how much we rely on that sometimes and my hearing is only partially shit. I'm sure those who rely very heavily on lip reading will also be glad to see the back of them.


----------



## bimble (Jul 7, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> I've only worn them in shops and an issue (apart from steamy specs) has been not being able to see people's lips when they're talking to me. It's surprising how much we rely on that sometimes and my hearing is only partially shit. I'm sure those who rely very heavily on lip reading will also be glad to see the back of them.


hadn't even thought of that. yep.


----------



## two sheds (Jul 7, 2021)

neighbour is deaf and has had all sorts of problems at (for example) hospital where she was told mask wearing wasn't optional, and her husband wasn't allowed in with her to sign.


----------



## scifisam (Jul 7, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> I've only worn them in shops and an issue (apart from steamy specs) has been not being able to see people's lips when they're talking to me. It's surprising how much we rely on that sometimes and my hearing is only partially shit. I'm sure those who rely very heavily on lip reading will also be glad to see the back of them.


The other day I was trying to book a hairdressing appt for my daughter, in person, and the combination of being near an open door (to help circulate air), him not speaking English all that well, and both of us wearing masks meant that we might as well have been communicating by semaphore in the dark.


----------



## Saul Goodman (Jul 7, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> I've only worn them in shops and an issue (apart from steamy specs) has been not being able to see people's lips when they're talking to me. It's surprising how much we rely on that sometimes and my hearing is only partially shit. I'm sure those who rely very heavily on lip reading will also be glad to see the back of them.


This^
My hearing is a bit fucked from standing inside speakers at raves, and coupled with a muffled voice behind a mask, I'm finding myself asking people to repeat themselves a lot.


----------



## Spymaster (Jul 7, 2021)

scifisam said:


> The other day I was trying to book a hairdressing appt for my daughter, in person, and the combination of being near an open door (to help circulate air), him not speaking English all that well, and both of us wearing masks meant that we might as well have been communicating by semaphore in the dark.



Loads of times I've asked someone to repeat something several times and it's usually been resolved by them pulling down their mask and repeating it s-l-o-w-l-y


----------



## mentalchik (Jul 7, 2021)

elbows said:


> I meant try to compensate for lack of mask wearing by improving other aspects of the environment such as ventilation.


Erm i work in a supermarket that's one of the 'big four' chains....it's ventilation is not in my perview


----------



## elbows (Jul 7, 2021)

Well I tried to come up with some ways that people can think about compensating for some behaviours with others. When no alternatives seem available, its even more important to try to live with the masks for a while longer.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Jul 7, 2021)

scifisam said:


> Isn't that only for the last couple of months though, not 18 months?


Since last August.


----------



## Aladdin (Jul 7, 2021)

I've been thinking about the whole "Freedom day" crap.
There will be even less freedom for those who have to keep wearing masks because they are still at risk.


----------



## moomoo (Jul 7, 2021)

Already fewer people are wearing them in the shop. Or have them hanging round their chin. I’m back to jumping backwards when a customer wants to speak with me. It’s going to be utter hell after the 19th.


----------



## moomoo (Jul 7, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> I do, I think they’re great



Likewise. They keep my face warm when I’m working in the fridges.


----------



## mentalchik (Jul 7, 2021)

moomoo said:


> Already fewer people are wearing them in the shop. Or have them hanging round their chin. I’m back to jumping backwards when a customer wants to speak with me. It’s going to be utter hell after the 19th.


I have a feeling we're gonna go from arguing and getting abuse from people that don't want to wear them to people that don't like it because hardly anyone will be wearing them.........(probably keeping mine on for most of the time as i have the joy of the services dept)


----------



## existentialist (Jul 7, 2021)

I've said this elsewhere, but also possibly here, so apologies if I'm repeating myself. Also, I'm in Wales, where some sort of sense appears to still prevail...

But my take on this is that I am going to carry on wearing masks in public places, regardless, for two reasons. Firstly, because I think that the government approach is now as far away from immunological reality as it has ever been - and that's an achievement in itself. And, secondly, on the basis that if people who couldn't give a fuck if twats came up and started giving them a hard time about mask-wearing keep on wearing them, it might encourage other people to carry on wearing theirs.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 7, 2021)

existentialist said:


> I've said this elsewhere, but also possibly here, so apologies if I'm repeating myself. Also, I'm in Wales, where some sort of sense appears to still prevail...
> 
> But my take on this is that I am going to carry on wearing masks in public places, regardless, for two reasons. Firstly, because I think that the government approach is now as far away from immunological reality as it has ever been - and that's an achievement in itself. And, secondly, on the basis that if people who couldn't give a fuck if twats came up and started giving them a hard time about mask-wearing keep on wearing them, it might encourage other people to carry on wearing theirs.


Also people wearing masks who deck people who refuse to and are arsy about it less likely to get lifted than the maskless muppets


----------



## prunus (Jul 7, 2021)

existentialist said:


> I've said this elsewhere, but also possibly here, so apologies if I'm repeating myself. Also, I'm in Wales, where some sort of sense appears to still prevail...
> 
> But my take on this is that I am going to carry on wearing masks in public places, regardless, for two reasons. Firstly, because I think that the government approach is now as far away from immunological reality as it has ever been - and that's an achievement in itself. And, secondly, on the basis that if people who couldn't give a fuck if twats came up and started giving them a hard time about mask-wearing keep on wearing them, it might encourage other people to carry on wearing theirs.



My position exactly. Though I know that as a relatively large (in all dimensions sadly) man in a non-customer facing job I am in a privileged position.


----------



## frogwoman (Jul 7, 2021)

Definitely, I'm basically in favour of opening up most things tbh but I haven't had my second jab and I'll probably always wear them in crowded places such as the tube or crowded shops from now on tbh. Think the advice to ditch masks is pretty worrying if I'm honest.


----------



## pogofish (Jul 7, 2021)

gentlegreen said:


> Plus an option for - "would you actually wear a mask even more if anarchy and variants become more of a threat.."



Yes, bang-on!


----------



## Mr Retro (Jul 7, 2021)

In the pub watching the game tonight 3 guys at a table near us put on their masks before Kane’s penalty so they could jump up if he scored. The madness has gone deep.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Jul 7, 2021)

Mr Retro said:


> In the pub watching the game tonight 3 guys at a table near us put on their masks before Kane’s penalty so they could jump up if he scored. The madness has gone deep.


I may not give a toss about football, but calling it madness is a bit steep.


----------



## two sheds (Jul 7, 2021)

Mr Retro said:


> In the pub watching the game tonight 3 guys at a table near us put on their masks before Kane’s penalty so they could jump up if he scored. The madness has gone deep.


Do you actually know how coronavirus is spread?

Hint: it's not just people jumping up and down


----------



## prunus (Jul 7, 2021)

Mr Retro said:


> In the pub watching the game tonight 3 guys at a table near us put on their masks before Kane’s penalty so they could jump up if he scored. The madness has gone deep.



I am encouraged by the behaviour you describe. Hopefully it indicates not too many people are as far gone as you seem to be.


----------



## Mr Retro (Jul 7, 2021)

Santino said:


> Mr Retro Block me, you coward


“Coward”?? How so?


----------



## Mr Retro (Jul 7, 2021)

prunus said:


> I am encouraged by the behaviour you describe. Hopefully it indicates not too many people are as far gone as you seem to be.


I have no doubt you are encouraged by that behaviour and _I_ am the one far gone.


----------



## l'Otters (Jul 7, 2021)

We’re in the middle of the exponentially increasing spread of a new variant which our measures (such as they were) and vaccines were not designed to work against.

I’ll be keeping my mask on. I’ll continue to make them. I upped the standard of what I make them out of earlier this year when it became obvious I’d need something that protects me as well as others.

I find the people saying they won’t bother if it’s not against the rules anymore quite depressing and honestly, disappointing. I’ve been doing what I’ve been doing out of care and respect for myself and other people, not because I was told to.


----------



## two sheds (Jul 7, 2021)

Mr Retro said:


> _I_ am the one far gone.


glad you finally admit it


----------



## l'Otters (Jul 7, 2021)

idly wondering what happened to that other poster whose tactic was to put everyone on ignore. guess eventually they ran out of people to dismiss as rude and put on ignore ?


----------



## two sheds (Jul 7, 2021)

you've insulted him now you'll be on ignore too


----------



## Mr Retro (Jul 8, 2021)

l'Otters said:


> idly wondering what happened to that other poster whose tactic was to put everyone on ignore. guess eventually they ran out of people to dismiss as rude and put on ignore ?


It’s interesting to look back on just a day or so and see the people who are unable to engage without resorting to personal verbal abuse. 

I’ve been in urban 75 for years and you would have hoped it was a bit better than the behaviour you see on Twitter but it isn’t at all the case. It’s mainly why I dip in and out because it’s just the same bullying here if you are not part of the echo chamber.

If you care about these things there is a classic example of bullying on this thread. People being abusive and then asking to be put on ignore so as to bond with other bullies against a target.


----------



## l'Otters (Jul 8, 2021)

Has it occurred to you that perhaps the problem is with you... 

Personally have found your contributions to this thread consistently offensive and not worth engaging with. And I’m really not surprised to see people taking umbrage at your tone. Both content and delivery are off. But whatever. Not my circus.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 8, 2021)

we just have no truck with selfish people who get their news from social media


----------



## Mr Retro (Jul 8, 2021)

Ok


l'Otters said:


> Has it occurred to you that perhaps the problem is with you...
> 
> Personally have found your contributions to this thread consistently offensive and not worth engaging with. And I’m really not surprised to see people taking umbrage at your tone. Both content and delivery are off. But whatever. Not my circus.


Ah so it’s my fault! There’s a word for that too


----------



## purves grundy (Jul 8, 2021)

You’ll never know if I will keep wearing a mask because I might be wearing a mask and therefore unidentifiable.


----------



## scifisam (Jul 8, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> we just have no truck with selfish people who get their news from social media



Nah, that describes most of us


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 8, 2021)

scifisam said:


> Nah, that describes most of us


i hope not


----------



## Supine (Jul 8, 2021)

Mr Retro said:


> Ok
> 
> Ah so it’s my fault! There’s a word for that too


True?


----------



## krtek a houby (Jul 8, 2021)

Mr Retro said:


> LynnDoyleCooper if you (or anybody else) can't debate & disagree without insults I will put you on ignore.
> 
> The evidence that wearing a mask does anything to protect the wearer or those they are around is not clear. I detest them, I find them oppressive and their removal of dignity and individualism really effects me. Therefore in the absence of evidence I will not wear one.
> 
> Individual freedoms have been entirely removed by government in the last 16 months. In their fear, purposely engendered by scientists, government and MSM I think many people have been quite comfortable with this totalitarianism. Now we are getting freedoms back, I believe the shrieking about masks and the common good in the last day or so on social medi is somewhere to direct the fear. I understand this and I think masks are a comfort for people. I will respect and not judge anybody who still wants to wear a mask while exercising my right not to.



Hate the damn things but have been wearing them for 12 hour days at work. And will continue to do so, as long as selfish conspiracy types continue to believe that preventitive measures are somehow taking their freedoms away.


----------



## existentialist (Jul 8, 2021)

Mr Retro said:


> In the pub watching the game tonight 3 guys at a table near us put on their masks before Kane’s penalty so they could jump up if he scored. The madness has gone deep.


You're a snidey little cunt, aren't you?


----------



## bimble (Jul 8, 2021)

tbh that is quite funny, the 3 men in the pub.


----------



## existentialist (Jul 8, 2021)

bimble said:


> tbh that is quite funny, the 3 men in the pub.


I thought it was rather lovely.


----------



## bimble (Jul 8, 2021)

It's sweet yeah, the mad bit is the rule about how you can shout or sing as much as you like, in a crowded room, as long as you're seated.


----------



## Supine (Jul 8, 2021)

Was it an English man, an Irish man and a scot?


----------



## Clair De Lune (Jul 8, 2021)

I've not read the whole thread and I dunno if these ever get listened to but - Sign the Petition


----------



## existentialist (Jul 8, 2021)

Clair De Lune said:


> I've not read the whole thread and I dunno if these ever get listened to but - Sign the Petition


Let's face it - this shower, just like my ex, don't want to hear anything that doesn't suit their agenda. So they'll ignore it. But I think the message is still worth sending, so I've signed it.


----------



## bimble (Jul 8, 2021)

Mr Retro said:


> It’s interesting to look back on just a day or so and see the people who are unable to engage without resorting to personal verbal abuse.
> 
> I’ve been in urban 75 for years and you would have hoped it was a bit better than the behaviour you see on Twitter but it isn’t at all the case. It’s mainly why I dip in and out because it’s just the same bullying here if you are not part of the echo chamber.
> 
> If you care about these things there is a classic example of bullying on this thread. People being abusive and then asking to be put on ignore so as to bond with other bullies against a target.


i think what's happened is just that people are taking out the anger that they feel towards millions of others who are not here (people who who share your ideas about there having been a vast concerted conspiracy etc) at you cos you are. Don't think its personal & do think its over the top tbh.
My next door neighbours are 100 times more nuts than you (the whole virus is some sort of evil plan etc) and maybe its cathartic to have a go at you cos I'm not brave enough to tell them what i think of them, because they live right there.


----------



## farmerbarleymow (Jul 8, 2021)

8ball said:


> Just stand quite close and tell them you’ve got anthrax.


Wonder if a mask with 'ebola' printed on it would deter maskless idiots?


----------



## Spymaster (Jul 8, 2021)

bimble said:


> i think what's happened is just that people are taking out the anger that they feel towards millions of others who are not here (people who who share your ideas about there having been a vast concerted conspiracy etc) at you cos you are. Don't think its personal & do think its over the top tbh.
> My next door neighbours are 100 times more nuts than you (the whole virus is some sort of evil plan etc) and maybe its cathartic to have a go at you cos I'm not brave enough to tell them what i think of them, because they live right there.



And Retro's not saying anything that millions of others don't think. The issue with U75 has always been that the posters here see it as an example of real life, when in actuality this place is primarily populated by misfits and weirdos who are about as in touch with reality as the Tooth Fairy.


----------



## Raheem (Jul 8, 2021)

TBF, the Tooth Fairy sees a lot and knows the score.


----------



## Brainaddict (Jul 8, 2021)

I'll continue wearing masks in enclosed spaces, and in fact have for the first time ordered an ffp2 compliant mask for public transport and shops because it seems I have to expect other people not to be wearing masks soon.


----------



## Aladdin (Jul 8, 2021)

Raheem said:


> TBF, the Tooth Fairy sees a lot and knows the score.



The tooth fairy sees behind the mask.....


----------



## bimble (Jul 8, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> And Retro's not saying anything that millions of others don't think. The issue with U75 has always been that the posters here see it as an example of real life, when in actuality this place is primarily populated by misfits and weirdos who are about as in touch with reality as the Tooth Fairy.


What do you mean primarily.


----------



## Aladdin (Jul 8, 2021)

Brainaddict said:


> I'll continue wearing masks in enclosed spaces, and in fact have for the first time ordered an ffp2 compliant mask for public transport and shops because it seems I have to expect other people not to be wearing masks soon.



I ordered a box of ffp2 yesterday. 
I doubt I'll be going into shops or anywhere bar drs surgeries and hospital. 
But they will be places with a higher risk anyway...and even though I'm fully vaccinated nobody can tell me whether my immunocompromised immune system has had a decent response to the vaccine or not. And my last blood test had a low wcc and low neutrophils and other low readings. So I doubt my immune system would be up for a hard fight.


----------



## 8ball (Jul 8, 2021)

Clair De Lune said:


> I've not read the whole thread and I dunno if these ever get listened to but - Sign the Petition



That petition is doing pretty well.  Good chance of prompting some discussion in Parliament.


----------



## 8ball (Jul 8, 2021)

bimble said:


> What do you mean primarily.



We can't conclude much about lurkers.


----------



## pbsmooth (Jul 8, 2021)

back in the real world, most people are clearly just following govt aka the science advice (all caveats accepted). so if advice is now that you no longer need to wear one, these people, quite fairly, won't wear one. 
I scoff at mates who go all anti-vax and conspiracy nut as if they know better than official advice so would seem strange to me to then do this now myself and overrule the advice.


----------



## two sheds (Jul 8, 2021)

crojoe said:


> back in the real world, most people are clearly just following govt aka the science advice (all caveats accepted). so if advice is now that you no longer need to wear one, these people, quite fairly, won't wear one.
> I scoff at mates who go all anti-vax and conspiracy nut as if they know better than official advice so would seem strange to me to then do this now myself and overrule the advice.


isn't the advice that masks are optional? In which case you'd be following advice (particularly after what Whitty said).


----------



## Brainaddict (Jul 8, 2021)

crojoe said:


> back in the real world, most people are clearly just following govt aka the science advice (all caveats accepted). so if advice is now that you no longer need to wear one, these people, quite fairly, won't wear one.
> I scoff at mates who go all anti-vax and conspiracy nut as if they know better than official advice so would seem strange to me to then do this now myself and overrule the advice.


The problem with conspiracy theorists is surely not that they think they know better than official advice per se, lots of people might genuinely know better than official advice because we are ruled by careless arseholes. The problem with the conspiracists is that they are inclined towards unverifiable sources and poor evidence bases, and mistake people saying something on the internet for truth. I think we're entering a time when official advice is going to be quite bad and will result in new variants and many disabled people, so I'm hoping plenty of people will ignore government advice in favour of the evidence that having the virus circulating at high levels is bad in multiple ways.


----------



## pbsmooth (Jul 8, 2021)

Brainaddict said:


> The problem with conspiracy theorists is surely not that they think they know better than official advice per se, lots of people might genuinely know better than official advice because we are ruled by careless arseholes. The problem with the conspiracists is that they are inclined towards unverifiable sources and poor evidence bases, and mistake people saying something on the internet for truth. I think we're entering a time when official advice is going to be quite bad and will result in new variants and many disabled people, so I'm hoping plenty of people will ignore government advice in favour of the evidence that having the virus circulating at high levels is bad in multiple ways.



kinda agree but 'official advice is going to be quite bad' is a slippery slope. it's like hating on the BBC - the alternative is likely much worse, especially for people, as you say, less inclined to have good critical skills. so if you as an intelligent person doing the right thing etc etc is part of the 'don't believe the govt' trend I feel that doesn't end well.


----------



## elbows (Jul 8, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> And Retro's not saying anything that millions of others don't think. The issue with U75 has always been that the posters here see it as an example of real life, when in actuality this place is primarily populated by misfits and weirdos who are about as in touch with reality as the Tooth Fairy.


And yet collectively it managed to provide one of the best running commentaries of the pandemic there has been in this country.

Or at the very least, well ahead of the curve relative to the mainstream. For example March 2020 was a shock for many, but less of a surprise for those who were paying attention here.

Which is not at all to say that the opinions shared here are believed to reflect the majority view at all times. But in terms of a guide to actual reality rather than the bullshit we are sold at times, its been a great demonstration of what open analysis can offer.


----------



## steeplejack (Jul 8, 2021)

Yes, because I am not a complete sociopath and have at least some respect for the health and well-being of others.

The government has totally lost it's mind on this to placate business and a few claret-cheeked contrarians on the "personal liberties" loony right on the Tory backbenches. As always it will be ordinary folk who pay a very heavy price.


----------



## Brainaddict (Jul 8, 2021)

crojoe said:


> kinda agree but 'official advice is going to be quite bad' is a slippery slope. it's like hating on the BBC - the alternative is likely much worse, especially for people, as you say, less inclined to have good critical skills. so if you as an intelligent person doing the right thing etc etc is part of the 'don't believe the govt' trend I feel that doesn't end well.


I think that might have been true in the past. The government's new policy is so enormously risky (remember Johnson is a risk-taker who is promoted every time his risks don't pay off) that I think the picture has changed and it is important to be more cautious than government advice. Your stance is a bit puzzling tbh. Do you believe the government on everything? Have you spent your life avoiding the demon weed, for example, for fear you will fall into a life of vice and degradation?


----------



## Aladdin (Jul 8, 2021)

elbows said:


> And yet collectively it managed to provide one of the best running commentaries of the pandemic there has been in this country.
> 
> Or at the very least, well ahead of the curve relative to the mainstream. For example March 2020 was a shock for many, but less of a surprise for those who were paying attention here.
> 
> Which is not at all to say that the opinions shared here are believed to reflect the majority view at all times. But in terms of a guide to actual reality rather than the bullshit we are sold at times, its been a great demonstration of what open analysis can offer.




I have been really impressed with the factual and scientific posts on urban75 about covid and the pandemic. 

Many by your good self. 

Thanks to you and others I have felt some element of control.


----------



## scalyboy (Jul 8, 2021)

crojoe said:


> back in the real world, most people are clearly just following govt aka the science advice (all caveats accepted). so if advice is now that you no longer need to wear one, these people, quite fairly, won't wear one.
> I scoff at mates who go all anti-vax and conspiracy nut as if they know better than official advice so would seem strange to me to then do this now myself and overrule the advice.


But the Johnson government’s latest decrees are contrary to current scientific advice; earlier today I read of numerous international medical experts declaring the Johnson strategy to be dangerous and misguided.


----------



## elbows (Jul 8, 2021)

scalyboy said:


> But the Johnson government’s latest decrees are contrary to current scientific advice; earlier today I read of numerous international medical experts declaring the Johnson strategy to be dangerous and misguided.


And the dangerous absurdities baked into the UK establishment thinking has been a near constant feature of this pandemic. That shit is one of the most obvious demonstrations of this pandemic. And we have thousands of posts here with suitably on the ball posting dates to prove it.


----------



## l'Otters (Jul 8, 2021)

Susan Michie had some useful framing of this issue in the press conference the indie sage had this morning. It’s 90 mins long altogether, not sure I know how to link to that segment.


----------



## Saul Goodman (Jul 8, 2021)

crojoe said:


> back in the real world, most people are clearly just following govt aka the science advice (all caveats accepted). so if advice is now that you no longer need to wear one, these people, quite fairly, won't wear one.
> I scoff at mates who go all anti-vax and conspiracy nut as if they know better than official advice so would seem strange to me to then do this now myself and overrule the advice.


This.  
Most people do as they're told, and most people don't _want_ to wear a mask, so you can't blame the individual when the government say you don't have to wear one. 
Personally, I think it's reckless and stupid advice, and there's a chance it could result in a deadly mutation, so I'll be ignoring any advice saying I don't have to wear a mask, but I don't think abusing people who are only following government advice is very helpful.


----------



## Chilli.s (Jul 8, 2021)

Yeah elbows, a big thank you from me too. You were all over this in a calm and factual way from the start, your analysis of the mountain of information has been a great help.


----------



## Raheem (Jul 8, 2021)

Thing is, anyone running a business can still presumably make their own rules. So there are going to be scenes at cinemas, leisure centres and such like when people are asked to put on a mask and start yelling at the staff accusing them of high treason and something to do with human rights.


----------



## Saul Goodman (Jul 8, 2021)

Raheem said:


> Thing is, anyone running a business can still presumably make their own rules. So there are going to be scenes at cinemas, leisure centres and such like when people are asked to put on a mask and start yelling at the staff accusing them of high treason and something to do with human rights.


I'm hoping businesses ignore government advice and insist on masks.


----------



## elbows (Jul 8, 2021)

Government advice does include businesses being free to decide to require masks.


----------



## bimble (Jul 8, 2021)

i wouldn't be surprised if we get mask-wearer cinemas and freedom-lover cinemas, a bifurcation. then ppl can choose.


----------



## MickiQ (Jul 8, 2021)

bimble said:


> i wouldn't be surprised if we get mask-wearer cinemas and freedom-lover cinemas, a bifurcation. then ppl can choose.


Or Democrats and Republicans as they called in the USA


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Jul 8, 2021)

Just to spice things up a bit, did mask wearers vote Remain and anti maskers vote Leave?


----------



## Raheem (Jul 8, 2021)

We're all anti-maskers now. Get over it.


----------



## Thora (Jul 8, 2021)

Honestly I have pretty much followed all the rules all the way through, and will continue to follow them and do what I have to.


----------



## gentlegreen (Jul 8, 2021)

The maskless numbers in my local supermarkets are picking up. It's like the announcement was sufficient - perhaps two weeks was too long to wait ...
It's a shock to see more and more of my local Aldi *staff *maskless - and today it wasn't "just" shelf-stackers, but today it was someone vocally directing people to the self-service tills ..


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Jul 8, 2021)

Interesting to read a couple of people are buying ffp2 masks now. I will be too and for the first time. Before I was just wearing the crappy surgical ones but now I can't rely on them because I can't rely on the government to do its job and protect me.


----------



## Badgers (Jul 8, 2021)

Only 19 lateral flow tests (over 500 home test kits given out) and 4 of those were positive. Of the four, three people were double vaccinated.

My sister (teacher) is isolating
A third of her school are isolating 
One of her two kids (school) is isolating
Her husband (railway's) is isolating
His parents (retired) are isolating

Her neighbour (office worker) is isolating
Neighbours twin kids (nursery) are isolating


----------



## paul russell999 (Jul 8, 2021)

Like a few other posters, I got some new FFP2 masks today. I use them for popping into the supermarket - quickly - I find those masks too uncomfortable to wear for more than about 5 minutes. I'm a live-in carer for my mum - although she's been double jabbed, I'm not sure she would survive infection. Of course, everyone's got to go sometime, but covid doesn't sound like a great way to go, so I would hate to give it to her.


----------



## pbsmooth (Jul 8, 2021)

Brainaddict said:


> I think that might have been true in the past. The government's new policy is so enormously risky (remember Johnson is a risk-taker who is promoted every time his risks don't pay off) that I think the picture has changed and it is important to be more cautious than government advice. Your stance is a bit puzzling tbh. Do you believe the government on everything? Have you spent your life avoiding the demon weed, for example, for fear you will fall into a life of vice and degradation?



yes that's right, generally following the govt's scientific advisors in a once-in-a-lifetime global pandemic = I believe everything the govt has ever said.


----------



## Elpenor (Jul 8, 2021)

I bought some FFP2 masks in boots yesterday. 5 for £9.99, are there any cheaper ones around.


----------



## Badgers (Jul 8, 2021)

Elpenor said:


> I bought some FFP2 masks in boots yesterday. 5 for £9.99, are there any cheaper ones around.


That is reasonable. Saw them in a pharmacy today for a better price:









						PurifyLabs FFP2 face masks
					

Order Purity Labs FFP2 face masks from LloydsPharmacy with free delivery or Click & Collect, safe and conveniently online.




					lloydspharmacy.com
				




The 100% masks are the FFP3 which are a tad more expensive :





__





						FFP3 Face Mask with Exhalation Valve (x5) - EN 149:2001 and A1:2009 Compliant, 4 Point Headband with Cushioned Lining for Extra Comfort and Security (Type B - Pack of 5) : Amazon.co.uk: DIY & Tools
					

Free delivery and returns on all eligible orders. Shop FFP3 Face Mask with Exhalation Valve (x5) - EN 149:2001 and A1:2009 Compliant, 4 Point Headband with Cushioned Lining for Extra Comfort and Security (Type B - Pack of 5).



					www.amazon.co.uk


----------



## kalidarkone (Jul 8, 2021)

Doctor Carrot said:


> Interesting to read a couple of people are buying ffp2 masks now. I will be too and for the first time. Before I was just wearing the crappy surgical ones but now I can't rely on them because I can't rely on the government to do its job and protect me.


Same here.


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Jul 8, 2021)

Elpenor said:


> I bought some FFP2 masks in boots yesterday. 5 for £9.99, are there any cheaper ones around.


I just ordered these. I don't know how good they are but they look good and the company is an actual producer of PPE and not a fly by night one. 

9 quid for 10





__





						95% (Carton of 10), BM-001 : Amazon.co.uk: DIY & Tools
					

95% (Carton of 10), BM-001 : Amazon.co.uk: DIY & Tools



					www.amazon.co.uk


----------



## platinumsage (Jul 8, 2021)

40% want masks to be compulsory permanently, post-COVID, which is pretty batshit.


----------



## LDC (Jul 8, 2021)

Maybe the modern world is so shit for so many people some aspects of the last 18 months seem appealing on some level?


----------



## pbsmooth (Jul 8, 2021)

the 10-day quarantine seems even more nuts!


----------



## two sheds (Jul 8, 2021)

lot of people don't want to catch coronavirus. Surprising eh.


----------



## Saul Goodman (Jul 8, 2021)

platinumsage said:


> 40% want masks to be compulsory permanently, post-COVID, which is pretty batshit.



"1 in 5 people are Daily Mail types" - forgive me for not being even remotely shocked.


----------



## elbows (Jul 8, 2021)

platinumsage said:


> 40% want masks to be compulsory permanently, post-COVID, which is pretty batshit.



Maybe they heard about 20,000 deaths being considered a good result that we might expect for a bad flu season and decided maybe we shouldnt settle for that with non-covid diseases either.


----------



## Johnny Vodka (Jul 8, 2021)

Don't know if any other Scottish posters have mentioned it, but social distancing and mask wearing look here to stay in Scotland for a long while.  Personally, I don't object to mask wearing in the supermarket or on public transport, but I'm not sure how gigs, clubs and, to some extent, pubs are meant to work with that.


----------



## Badgers (Jul 8, 2021)

elbows said:


> Maybe they heard about 20,000 deaths being considered a good result that we might expect for a bad flu season and decided maybe we shouldnt settle for that with non-covid diseases either.


Flu is credited with killing less than a thousand most years  so they are a bit desperate


----------



## Johnny Vodka (Jul 8, 2021)

Johnny Vodka said:


> Don't know if any other Scottish posters have mentioned it, but social distancing and mask wearing look here to stay in Scotland for a long while.  Personally, I don't object to mask wearing in the supermarket or on public transport, but I'm not sure how gigs, clubs and, to some extent, pubs are meant to work with that.



Looks like a mask might only be required on public transport and in shops.


----------



## Aladdin (Jul 8, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Flu is credited with killing less than a thousand most years  so they are a bit desperate



Isnt that because many vulnerable people get vaccinated every year?

I recall hearing that they have not managed to figure which particular flu strain to expect this coming autumn..Normally they have an idea but this past year and last year, mask wearing prevented flu from taking off. 

Have they figured out which flu jab to give come November? I dont think they have...and that combined with possible further variants could cause a very real crisis.... 😳


----------



## Mr Retro (Jul 8, 2021)

Raheem said:


> Thing is, anyone running a business can still presumably make their own rules. So there are going to be scenes at cinemas, leisure centres and such like when people are asked to put on a mask and start yelling at the staff accusing them of high treason and something to do with human rights.


There might be a bit of “mask only” businesses for a short time but I doubt it will last for any length of time. I for example won’t support a business that insists I wear a mask after 19th.


----------



## Badgers (Jul 8, 2021)

Sugar Kane said:


> Isnt that because many vulnerable people get vaccinated every year?
> 
> I recall hearing that they have not managed to figure which particular flu strain to expect this coming autumn..Normally they have an idea but this past year and last year, mask wearing prevented flu from taking off.
> 
> Have they figured out which flu jab to give come November? I dont think they have...and that combined with possible further variants could cause a very real crisis.... 😳


There is a concern here. 

Due to lockdown, masks and distancing the immune systems are not at their best. I have not had a cold or flu since this shit began.


----------



## elbows (Jul 8, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Flu is credited with killing less than a thousand most years  so they are a bit desperate



No I dont know where you got that from and I wouldnt make that claim at all. Although if you pick a couple of really good recent years or go by a narrow measure, perhaps you could find such low figures.

There are several different ways it is credited for deaths, since the authorities know that they cannot rely on death certificate reporting on its own, and resort to algorithms to establish estimates. Note that the example I've picked is only for England, not whole of the UK figures.



			https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/839350/Surveillance_of_influenza_and_other_respiratory_viruses_in_the_UK_2018_to_2019-FINAL.pdf


----------



## killer b (Jul 8, 2021)

Those are odd polling numbers - suspect they reflect as much some people's inability to imagine things being different as anything else.


----------



## Aladdin (Jul 8, 2021)

Badgers said:


> There is a concern here.
> 
> Due to lockdown, masks and distancing the immune systems are not at their best. I have not had a cold or flu since this shit began.



Same here .. and my last blood tests showed my white cell count was very low plus nutrophils were low.
Waiting for Occ Health to decide whether I am still very high risk as their own covid toolkit says I am still very high risk but they are shilly shallying. 
I suspect that the Dept of education will try to force me back. And they will try to reclassify me. I don't see how but they're delaying a lot in their decision making. Not sure why.
It's very unsettling.


Soz.
I am a bit pissed off .


----------



## existentialist (Jul 8, 2021)

Badgers said:


> That is reasonable. Saw them in a pharmacy today for a better price:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I thought the exhalation valves rather negated 50% of the purpose of wearing a mask?


----------



## Badgers (Jul 8, 2021)

elbows said:


> No I dont know where you got that from and I wouldnt make that claim at all. Although if you pick a couple of really good recent years or go by a narrow measure, perhaps you could find such low figures.


From a virologist


----------



## Aladdin (Jul 8, 2021)

Mr Retro said:


> There might be a bit of “mask only” businesses for a short time but I doubt it will last for any length of time. I for example won’t support a business that insists I wear





existentialist said:


> I thought the exhalation valves rather negated 50% of the purpose of wearing a mask?




They protect you.
Not everyone else though.


----------



## existentialist (Jul 8, 2021)

Sugar Kane said:


> They protect you.
> Not everyone else though.


That was the point I was trying to delicately make...


----------



## Aladdin (Jul 8, 2021)

existentialist said:


> That was the point I was trying to delicately make...



Oh.. soz..🤪


----------



## elbows (Jul 8, 2021)

Badgers said:


> From a virologist



Such low numbers have no credibility at all.

Sadly one of the reasons authorities cannot rely on death certificates to indicate flu mortality is because all sorts of strange attitudes exist within people working within that system, which when coupled with a lack of routine diagnostic testing for all ends up leading to a lot of vague death certificates that fail to give flu the attribution it deserves.

Its also entirely possible that we fail to attribute some of the deaths to other seasonal respiratory infections, and rather than being correctly estimated via other general mortality data and algorithms, some of those get lumped in with the flu estimates instead.

Either way, despite not having a brilliant view of every deaths factors, enough winter data and analysis is available with which to judge seasonal respiratory disease burden reasonably well. These things arent subtle phenomenon most seasons, they rather stick out.


----------



## Raheem (Jul 8, 2021)

Mr Retro said:


> There might be a bit of “mask only” businesses for a short time but I doubt it will last for any length of time. I for example won’t support a business that insists I wear a mask after 19th.


Well, that's fucked them then.


----------



## two sheds (Jul 8, 2021)

Mr Retro said:


> There might be a bit of “mask only” businesses for a short time but I doubt it will last for any length of time. I for example won’t support a business that insists I wear a mask after 19th.


This genuinely puzzles me. Why would you not support a business that is trying to protect its staff from contracting a life-threatening disease?


----------



## cupid_stunt (Jul 8, 2021)

Mr Retro said:


> There might be a bit of “mask only” businesses for a short time but I doubt it will last for any length of time. I for example won’t support a business that insists I wear a mask after 19th.


Iam sure they will be pleased to hear that.


----------



## elbows (Jul 8, 2021)

And just to be very clear about influenza death levels, it would be quite wrong to claim that 20,000 is the number that die every year, the average is not thought to be at that level.

But the idea it kills less than a thousand is something I find quite offensive based on all the numbers I've ever come across.

Another interesting area is how the rate has changed over time. I believe it is well possible to see a number of things in UK flu data this century, including the effects of expanding vaccination programmes. 

The sort of number the following study came out with years ago involve the sort of ranges I tend to consider at least somewhat safe, a reasonable way to think about flu deaths.





__





						Loading…
					





					bmcpublichealth.biomedcentral.com


----------



## existentialist (Jul 8, 2021)

cupid_stunt said:


> Iam sure they will be pleased to hear that.


Well, they're not going to want mask-refusing cunts on their premises, if they can help it, so I imagine he'll be doing them a favour. But don't tell him, or he'll do it to spite them - he seems like that kind of person 

(it's OK, he's almost certainly got me on ignore, so our strategy is safe)


----------



## Chilli.s (Jul 8, 2021)

I have a feeling that the wont wear a mask group is going to directly become the wont isolate crowd


----------



## Raheem (Jul 8, 2021)

Mr Retro said:


> There might be a bit of “mask only” businesses for a short time but I doubt it will last for any length of time. I for example won’t support a business that insists I wear a mask after 19th.


Come to think about it, I don't believe the Urban75 mask policy for after 19th is finalised yet...


----------



## Badgers (Jul 8, 2021)

elbows said:


> offensive


Sorry to OFFEND you

I am an amateur but get my information from scientific sources.


----------



## Badgers (Jul 8, 2021)

Mr Retro said:


> There might be a bit of “mask only” businesses for a short time but I doubt it will last for any length of time. I for example won’t support a business that insists I wear a mask after 19th.


Dental businesses and the like? 

Jog on you soft cunt


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 8, 2021)

those poor nail salons


----------



## two sheds (Jul 8, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Dental businesses and the like?
> 
> Jog on you soft cunt


Mind you dental business will have problems if they demand patients wear masks.


----------



## elbows (Jul 8, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Sorry to OFFEND you
> 
> I am an amateur but get my information from scientific sources.



So am I.

I dont think its that hard to understand why I might find a figure of less than a thousand deaths a year from flu to be offensive. If you believed it was much higher than that and then someone tried to tell you it was that low, would you be happy about it?


----------



## Badgers (Jul 8, 2021)

elbows said:


> So am I.
> 
> I dont think its that hard to understand why I might find a figure of less than a thousand deaths a year from flu to be offensive. If you believed it was much higher than that and then someone tried to tell you it was that low, would you be happy about it?


Are you talking about influenza and pneumonia combined?


----------



## scalyboy (Jul 8, 2021)

.


----------



## glitch hiker (Jul 8, 2021)

Mr Retro said:


> There might be a bit of “mask only” businesses for a short time but I doubt it will last for any length of time. I for example won’t support a business that insists I wear a mask after 19th.


Would you go to a halloween costume shop?


----------



## Raheem (Jul 8, 2021)

glitch hiker said:


> Would you got to a halloween costume shop?


Or an s&m dungeon?


----------



## scalyboy (Jul 8, 2021)

existentialist said:


> I thought the exhalation valves rather negated 50% of the purpose of wearing a mask?


Some time last year I bought a super hi-power dubwise FFP2 F95 mask, I looked like Darth Vader crossed with Hannibal Lecter, v impressive bit of kit and I felt safer on the Tube BUT I soon noticed that whenever I exhaled, could see little droplets flying out 😳

Haven’t used it since - it may well be protecting me but it seemed like a damn good virus spreader 🙁


----------



## Saul Goodman (Jul 8, 2021)

elbows said:


> So am I.
> 
> I dont think its that hard to understand why I might find a figure of less than a thousand deaths a year from flu to be offensive. If you believed it was much higher than that and then someone tried to tell you it was that low, would you be happy about it?


I did a lot of reading at the start of the pandemic, and despite deaths being in the thousands in recent years, the figures I found suggested deaths from flu averaged around 600 a year.


----------



## Saul Goodman (Jul 8, 2021)

> *About seasonal influenza*
> 
> 
> Seasonal influenza is a common, highly contagious infectious disease that can cause severe illness and life-threatening complications in many people. The European Centre for Disease Prevention and Control (ECDC) estimates that 15,000 – 70,000 people in Europe die from influenza-related complications each year, and encourages annual vaccination as the most effective way to prevent influenza. *In the UK, the Oxford Vaccines Group estimates that an average of 600 people a year die from complications of flu*, but in some years this can rise to over 10,000 people.







__





						Seqirus starts on time delivery of flu vaccines to support  NHS immunisation programmes across the UK
					

Seqirus starts on time delivery of flu vaccines to support  NHS immunisation programmes across the UK




					www.seqirus.com
				





> In the UK an average of 600 people a year die from complications of seasonal flu. However in 2013-14, it is estimated that about 11,000 people died from flu-related causes.











						Influenza (flu) | Vaccine Knowledge
					





					vk.ovg.ox.ac.uk


----------



## elbows (Jul 8, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Are you talking about influenza and pneumonia combined?



Quite a lot of influenza deaths are caused by pneumonia. Quite a lot of pneumonia is caused by influenza, but there are plenty of other causes too.

A lack of mass testing for influenza means that there is much failure to record the specifics of every death on this spectrum. Even the stuffiest authorities acknowledge this. Hence analysis such as that I posted earlier which goes on about the limits of formally measured influenza fatalities and the need to ascertain these levels by other means.

Due to this pandemic we also have another means of thinking about influenza deaths in recent times. We can look at all the influenza-related deaths that did not happen this past winter. We can look at all the non-Covid pneumonia deaths that didnt happen, etc.

Influenza is responsible for thousands of deaths every normal year. It is directly responsible, in that if those people had not caught influenza, they would not have died at that time.


----------



## elbows (Jul 8, 2021)

And some of that is some of the reason why I want mass diagnostics testing capabilities that have suddenly found favour in this pandemic to become a more standard part of our approach to other respiratory diseases in future. And I want hospital and care home infection control improvements to be done all the time. We can measure influenza deaths better and more importantly reduce them if we put more effort into such things.


----------



## 8ball (Jul 8, 2021)

elbows said:


> Influenza is responsible for thousands of deaths every normal year. It is directly responsible, in that if those people had not caught influenza, they would not have died at that time.



Some things have multiple causes.
But yeah, our way of recording things is not exactly set up for allowing easy comparisons of different causes.


----------



## two sheds (Jul 8, 2021)

And how many people whose death is recorded on the death certificate by flu have actually been run down by buses two weeks later? Eh? Eh?


----------



## Aladdin (Jul 8, 2021)

Saul Goodman said:


> I did a lot of reading at the start of the pandemic, and despite deaths being in the thousands in recent years, the figures I found suggested deaths from flu averaged around 600 a year.



Thing is that people can die as a result of pneumonia from the flu and the death isn't necessarily documented as flu.


----------



## 8ball (Jul 8, 2021)

Sugar Kane said:


> Thing is that people can die as a result of pneumonia from the flu and the death isn't necessarily documented as flu.



Gets even worse when you move a bit away from direct or even second or third order causes. 
Working out contributory factors from blunt instruments like coroners' reports must be near impossible.


----------



## elbows (Jul 8, 2021)

Certainly there are a large number of things which also rely on people getting old and developing other health conditions in order that the outcome is death.

It wasnt that uncommon to hear pneumonia referred to as 'old mans friend' in the past either.

But I dont think I am going too far out on a limb when I say that if someone would not have died at that time were it not for catching influenza, that should be included in the sorts of numbers people refer to when they are talking about how many deaths we normally have from flu.

As I keep saying, even the authorities are well aware that death certificate reporting for things like influenza is deeply inadequate, and thats part of the reason we have fairly elaborate excess winter mortality surveillance systems.

Some of this stuff is a symptom of a disgraceful lack of inquisitiveness about precise causes of death from various respiratory diseases. Test, test, test is a lesson from this pandemic that should be applied in many other areas. Autorities here have traditionally preferred to rely on small systems of surveillance in order to get an overall impression of waves of influenza etc, rather than showing interest in formally identifying cases. That has implications not just for data but for how well peoples medical needs are treated. And sometimes it becomes far too much like the number games we've seen authorities most focussed on in this pandemic, about managing the levels of people seeking hospital treatment, instead of preventing as many cases as possible and saving as many lives as possible. There will always be a balance somewhere involving how much care people take to save those lives vs the expense and effort and other negative implications for peoples lives. The balance has not been pleasant int he past, and we could do much better. Masks and the new normal for at least winter behaviour does very much come into this picture.


----------



## glitch hiker (Jul 8, 2021)

Raheem said:


> Or an s&m dungeon?


or armed robbery


----------



## elbows (Jul 8, 2021)

By the way once the acute phase of the pandemic is over, I do intend to spend more time on that sort of thing. I would like to find some countries that normally have enough flu death to show up clearly in their figures via things like excess winter mortality. And I hope to find some who managed to get through at least one winter in this pandemic without much Covid and with much lower levels of other normal seasonal diseases too. Because that should tell a story in their excess winter mortality numbers for that season compared to pre-pandemic ones. I dont know if there will be any ideal candidates. And if there are, some of the numbers might still sound a little on the small size given that a country like the UK tends to be on the high side of deaths for all this sort of thing normally. So analysis of some countries may produce numbers that all seem rather low and inconsequential compared to our own normal state of affairs.

We are shit at this stuff. Do better in future and we could save many lives over many years. Masks are an obvious one but there are many things within specific sectors that can make big differences that wont necessarily eve be very visible to the general public. Hospital and care home infection control is something I've gone on about endlessly in this pandemic, and its role has not been small, not in this pandemic and not previously with things like flu. Add testing and various mitigation measures to those settings and it can make a measurable difference, of that Im sure.


----------



## glitch hiker (Jul 8, 2021)

Saul Goodman said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


At the start of the pandemic Hitchens was saying that period was at least twice that, as cover for his 'it's no worse than the flu' bullshit


----------



## elbows (Jul 8, 2021)

And should people invite me to believe that it would be weird and extreme to think patients deserve to be tested to see if they actually have flu, then that says plenty about why I think we've been shit in the past. Its not bloody good enough, and there is now a testing capacity foundation in place that can be used to create a new normal if the will is there. We could have created a new normal for masks to a certain extent too, but some seek to erode that as much as possible, as quickly as possible. There are multiple reasons. There is some cultural resistance, espcially from some sections of the establishment.


----------



## paul russell999 (Jul 8, 2021)

Elpenor said:


> I bought some FFP2 masks in boots yesterday. 5 for £9.99, are there any cheaper ones around.


I got mine from MediSave. They are a reputable company (I think), that I've ordered from quite a few times, that also happens to be a couple of miles from me, but they only sell online.









						FFP2 Masks x 20
					

Recommended Medical masks for primary / outpatient / community and social care settings. Omnitex premium unvalved FFP2 face masks. EN149 Compliant and CE Certified. Individually Wrapped. Each Box Contains 20 masks + 5 Mask extenders.   Meets FFP2 European Regulation Standards EN149:2001+A1:2009...




					www.medisave.co.uk
				




by the time you've paid postage, it's about £14 for 20 for these FFP2 masks. Got mine today. Seem fine.


----------



## Aladdin (Jul 8, 2021)

This is going to sound really awful but is there a chance that some government officials thought "let's allow covid to spread and if it kills off the weakest in society then it saves us the cost of their health care etc for the next 20 years....pandemic paid for.."

😟


----------



## elbows (Jul 8, 2021)

Such concepts exist and they are often part of the mix in certain minds, but there are lots of other factors and ways to dress that stuff up or justify it. And it does find additional territory to lurk whenever their are dark corners of unaddressed attitudes and levels of care to be found. Many countries had populations shocked by what happened with care homes in this pandemic.  But the conversations about that struggled to go beyond a certain point because they end up leading straight to a more longstanding and really awkward conversation about care homes and the elderly in general. Stuff people are not exactly in full denial about but find ways not to think about too much in case that leads to painful truths and potential solutions that may have implications they dont want to face.

Really crude calculations like the one you described are often more a part of some hideous justification or logic that falls short, rather than coming to full fruition. Because what happens is the virus only kills a fraction of the weak, and sends lots more people into that category without going so far as to kill them.

The heaviest burden is in the poor too, and that is not lost on authorities. Its inevitably going to be part of some political and economic calculations, but not all.


----------



## two sheds (Jul 8, 2021)

Or they just don't care.


----------



## elbows (Jul 8, 2021)

There are many degrees of care, plenty of people that care but only to a certain point, how much weight can their care actually be bothered to carry? And there is a sliding scale for those levels of care and age. Some of that is entirely understandable due to things like coming to terms with life and the inevitability of death. But of course things can be pushed to disgusting levels, and theres quite a lot of wiggle room as to what is considered acceptable in different socieities at different moments in history.

Authorities as they were calibrated pre-pandemic would probably view with horror the prospect that people might demand more care and less death from various causes. There is no clearly defined range for how much death they think the masses will stomach. They know there are limits somewhere and it gets complicated and in theory there can be shifts that catch the authorities out and they might have to shift if they dont want to be thought of as cruel monsters.


----------



## elbows (Jul 8, 2021)

And if we think that what the death limit is may be judged in terms of the intensity of death, rather than figures that slowly accumulate over much longer periods, other political calculations emerge that have something in common with this.

For example some might consider that aspects of capitalist societies, states etc might take some care to keep various things within certain boundaries considered manageable. eg it might be possible for a state to remain stable if it marginalises and ruins people at a certain limited rate per year. They might consider such things desirable because they keep 'efficiency' up in the hearts and minds of those who just manage to keep their head above water. If people are fucked over at a certain rate per year, unrest may be kept within manageable ranges, below revolutionary thresholds. When situations happen that change the pace of that shit, nerves may increase that pressure may mount and something might burst.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jul 9, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> And Retro's not saying anything that millions of others don't think. The issue with U75 has always been that the posters here see it as an example of real life, when in actuality this place is primarily populated by misfits and weirdos who are about as in touch with reality as the Tooth Fairy.



Then, thank the gods we have you to guide us through the unreality


----------



## Tankus (Jul 9, 2021)

I'm enjoying the utter lack of manflu, no sniffles even, in 18 months.

Plus I spent a bit of money on some uber comfortable, disposible filter liner beard covering fitted masks that are good now and will be  well ace in winter..


----------



## harpo (Jul 9, 2021)

If mask wearing in confined areas keeps me free of any sort of lurgy, as it has, then yeah I'll keep the habit.


----------



## ginger_syn (Jul 9, 2021)

Yes the reduction in hayfever symptoms and colds is worth it.


----------



## Spymaster (Jul 9, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> Then, thank the gods we have you to guide us through the unreality



Thank me not the gods. It’s a service I provide out of pity.


----------



## AnnaKarpik (Jul 9, 2021)

Mask wearing is already considerably reduced in my neck of the woods (tourist destination UK) and I expect it to reduce further among the visitors. I haven't checked with absolutely everyone but I suspect I am not alone among the resident population in just having splashed out on better fitting and better filtering masks.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jul 9, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Thank me not the gods. It’s a service I provide out of pity.



And piety


----------



## Spymaster (Jul 9, 2021)

That too.


----------



## farmerbarleymow (Jul 9, 2021)

Johnny Vodka said:


> Don't know if any other Scottish posters have mentioned it, but social distancing and mask wearing look here to stay in Scotland for a long while.  Personally, I don't object to mask wearing in the supermarket or on public transport, but I'm not sure how gigs, clubs and, to some extent, pubs are meant to work with that.


In pubs people could drink through curly straws - no need to take the mask off then.


----------



## killer b (Jul 9, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> And Retro's not saying anything that millions of others don't think. The issue with U75 has always been that the posters here see it as an example of real life, when in actuality this place is primarily populated by misfits and weirdos who are about as in touch with reality as the Tooth Fairy.





platinumsage said:


> 40% want masks to be compulsory permanently, post-COVID, which is pretty batshit.



The polling on masks here (top line) seems to have the general public more or less aligned with the consensus on urban. Anti-mask opinion - and certainly the kind of extreme anti-mask stuff retro has been coming out with - is the weirdo misfit position.


----------



## Johnny Vodka (Jul 9, 2021)

farmerbarleymow said:


> In pubs people could drink through curly straws - no need to take the mask off then.



Someone ought to design a mask with its own straw to reduce plastic waste.


----------



## Spymaster (Jul 9, 2021)

killer b said:


> The polling on masks here (top line) seems to have the general public more or less aligned with the consensus on urban. Anti-mask opinion - and certainly the kind of extreme anti-mask stuff retro has been coming out with - is the weirdo misfit position.


The weirdo/misfit thing isn’t the number of people who say they want to wear masks but their vehemence in attacking those who don’t. That poll’s probably bollocks too. Take it again a week after the 19th then post the results.

People won’t wear them for long if they don’t have to.


----------



## killer b (Jul 9, 2021)

You think that people spouting anti-mask stuff get a free ride elsewhere? That's not my experience at all - the whole pandemic has been characterised by running battles on social media over this sort of stuff. 

I agree there will probably be a big drop off in mask wearing after the 19th - I think that'll probably be true of people here too though. And it doesn't alter what public opinion and urban opinion - which are broadly in agreement - are today though.


----------



## Spymaster (Jul 9, 2021)

killer b said:


> You think that people spouting anti-mask stuff get a free ride elsewhere? That's not my experience at all - the whole pandemic has been characterised by running battles on social media over this sort of stuff.
> 
> I agree there will probably be a big drop off in mask wearing after the 19th - I think that'll probably be true of people here too though. And it doesn't alter what public opinion and urban opinion - which are broadly in agreement - are today though.


Depends what you mean by elsewhere. And public opinion and Urban opinion are not broadly in line at all if the polls are accurate. The one here has over 90% in favour of masks or “maybe”. The one you posted has 40-70.


----------



## Yossarian (Jul 9, 2021)

Masks became a lot more common in Hong Kong and a few other places after the SARS outbreak in 2003, this might end up being the case in some Western countries now that the initial cultural resistance is largely gone.

And like HK etc. after SARS, I think people in most places are going to be a lot quicker to start wearing masks the next time there's news about a mysterious new virus from China circulating.



> The SARS outbreak was a “turning point,” for Asia, said Chen Yih-chun, director of the National Taiwan University Hospital Center for Infection Control in Taipei. Before that, she said, Taiwanese saw masks as a stigma marking them as severely ill.
> 
> But Japanese had worn them even in the 1950s as a safeguard against rising air pollution, a byproduct of industrialization. Now people who feel just “under the weather” in Japan wear them to be polite, Sutton said.











						Not Just Coronavirus: Asians Have Worn Face Masks for Decades
					

People from Japan into Southeast Asia cover their mouths to deflect exhaust, pollution and cold air, Some are hiding their faces




					www.voanews.com


----------



## killer b (Jul 9, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Depends what you mean by elsewhere. And public opinion and Urban opinion are not broadly in line at all if the polls are accurate. The one here has over 90% in favour of masks or “maybe”. The one you posted has 40%.


it has 70% saying they support mask restrictions past 19th July in some form or the other. Considering the urban poll is a self selecting cohort of _people here who want to express an opinion on the topic_, I'd say if you did a proper poll of opinion on the boards you'd see the consensus much closer to 70%. either way 70% isn't that far off 90%. Both show public opinion & urban opinion strongly favours mask wearing.


----------



## platinumsage (Jul 9, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> Masks became a lot more common in Hong Kong and a few other places after the SARS outbreak in 2003, this might end up being the case in some Western countries now that the initial cultural resistance is largely gone.
> 
> And like HK etc. after SARS, I think people in most places are going to be a lot quicker to start wearing masks the next time there's news about a mysterious new virus from China circulating.
> 
> ...



IME of HK, Taiwan and Japan, they were never exactly common, only a low single-figure percentage would wear them, often people who had a make-up/pimple disaster or something. Certainly plenty of sniveling cold-suffers wouldn't bother.


----------



## Elpenor (Jul 9, 2021)

My Japanese colleagues in the UK would wear them if ill in the office.


----------



## platinumsage (Jul 9, 2021)

killer b said:


> it has 70% saying they support mask restrictions past 19th July in some form or the other. Considering the urban poll is a self selecting cohort of _people here who want to express an opinion on the topic_, I'd say if you did a proper poll of opinion on the boards you'd see the consensus much closer to 70%. either way 70% isn't that far off 90%. Both show public opinion & urban opinion strongly favours mask wearing.



But why the disparity. If the percentage supporting mask-wearing until COVID is under control is similar, why don't 40% of Urban75 users also support making masks permanent? Or do they? No entering indoor public spaces ever again unless masked up. I know that it would help with this but I don't get a feeling that this site is full of young anarchist protestors any more, it's mostly scared people cowering at home who think the government isn't enacting enough restrictions.


----------



## farmerbarleymow (Jul 9, 2021)

Elpenor said:


> My Japanese colleagues in the UK would wear them if ill in the office.


A reasonable response to the pressure here for people to go to work when they're ill.  I hated that aspect of office life, coughing and spluttering everywhere - and hope people will be more likely to work at home when they've got something infectious.


----------



## Roseygirl (Jul 9, 2021)

The idea of not wearing a mask anymore is bloody scary tbh for me. I'm gonna wear a mask when I'm out and about probly forever now. I reckon tho that if people don't want to its their choice and I spose anyone worried about catching covid would do all they can to protect themselves. Feels like the most sensible idea any rate. At some point everyone had to take responsibility for themselves


----------



## Elpenor (Jul 9, 2021)

farmerbarleymow said:


> A reasonable response to the pressure here for people to go to work when they're ill.  I hated that aspect of office life, coughing and spluttering everywhere - and hope people will be more likely to work at home when they've got something infectious.


The company refused to let people work from home. I put in a request and faced a 3 hour bullying meeting when my boss and an HR person started to tell me why my job wasn’t possible to be done from home.


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## farmerbarleymow (Jul 9, 2021)

Elpenor said:


> The company refused to let people work from home. I put in a request and faced a 3 hour bullying meeting when my boss and an HR person started to tell me why my job wasn’t possible to be done from home.


I know - too many employers are idiots when it comes to this sort of thing.  Unless you work in a job where you genuinely have to be present, the job can be done remotely.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jul 9, 2021)

platinumsage said:


> IME of HK, Taiwan and Japan, they were never exactly common, only a low single-figure percentage would wear them, often people who had a make-up/pimple disaster or something. Certainly plenty of sniveling cold-suffers wouldn't bother.



In Japan, they come out every year because of flu, colds and sugi season. 

They've been common for years.

The makeup/zit thing is nonsense.


----------



## platinumsage (Jul 9, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> In Japan, they come out every year because of flu, colds and sugi season.
> 
> They've been common for years.
> 
> The makeup/zit thing is nonsense.



I've spent many more hours sitting on Japanese subway trains opposite unmasked sniffing people with runny noses than I have opposite mask wearers. And no it's not nonsense.


----------



## Badgers (Jul 9, 2021)

Seeing a lot of posts like this from the NHS staff I follow on Twotter


----------



## Badgers (Jul 9, 2021)




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## killer b (Jul 9, 2021)

platinumsage said:


> But why the disparity. If the percentage supporting mask-wearing until COVID is under control is similar, why don't 40% of Urban75 users also support making masks permanent? Or do they? No entering indoor public spaces ever again unless masked up. I know that it would help with this but I don't get a feeling that this site is full of young anarchist protestors any more, it's mostly scared people cowering at home who think the government isn't enacting enough restrictions.


there are a number of people on the thread saying they'd support/carry on wearing masks permanently, at least when they have a respiratory infection. I've no idea what the numbers would look like if you polled us, but it's definitely a current on here. 

I've already posted upthread about the % uptake of mask wearing before it became compulsory - it was 30%, which is not enough for any public health initiative to have an impact. 

It's all very well to go on about people cowering at home: and certainly, some people are very scared about what's coming next. I don't think that's an unreasonable opinion to hold. But from a public health point of view, it is obviously necessary to compel people to take some measures when we're in a pandemic - the evidence of the last 15 months is pretty clear. I'm not sure what the anarchist take on public health emergencies is, but I don't think it's 'let everyone make their own decisions, it'll be reet'


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## platinumsage (Jul 9, 2021)

killer b said:


> there are a number of people on the thread saying they'd support/carry on wearing masks permanently, at least when they have a respiratory infection. I've no idea what the numbers would look like if you polled us, but it's definitely a current on here.
> 
> I've already posted upthread about the % uptake of mask wearing before it became compulsory - it was 30%, which is not enough for any public health initiative to have an impact.
> 
> It's all very well to go on about people cowering at home: and certainly, some people are very scared about what's coming next. I don't think that's an unreasonable opinion to hold. But from a public health point of view, it is obviously necessary to compel people to take some measures when we're in a pandemic - the evidence of the last 15 months is pretty clear. I'm not sure what the anarchist take on public health emergencies is, but I don't think it's 'let everyone make their own decisions, it'll be reet'



No, this particular question isn't about mask-wearing now, or in a pandemic, which is of course entirely reasonable - it's about permanent compulsory mask-wearing post-COVID world. A whopping 40% agree that they should never again to go to a concert or indoor event where everyone isn't wearing a mask, despite the risks of catching a disease being the same as they were in 2019.


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## glitch hiker (Jul 9, 2021)

platinumsage said:


> No, this particular question isn't about mask-wearing now, or in a pandemic, which is of course entirely reasonable - it's about permanent compulsory mask-wearing post-COVID world. A whopping 40% agree that they should never again to go to a concert or indoor event where everyone isn't wearing a mask, despite the risks of catching a disease being the same as they were in 2019.



we're nowhere near a post covid world, probably best not to use that as a position to argue from


----------



## platinumsage (Jul 9, 2021)

glitch hiker said:


> we're nowhere near a post covid world, probably best not to use that as a position to argue from



It was the question put in the IPSO Mori poll. That's what I'm discussing.


----------



## killer b (Jul 9, 2021)

platinumsage said:


> A whopping 40% agree that they should never again to go to a concert or indoor event where everyone isn't wearing a mask, despite the risks of catching a disease being the same as they were in 2019.


I don't think you can really assume all of that 40% think this. People respond to those polls with the closest thing to their opinion out of the options given.


----------



## xenon (Jul 9, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Depends what you mean by elsewhere. And public opinion and Urban opinion are not broadly in line at all if the polls are accurate. The one here has over 90% in favour of masks or “maybe”. The one you posted has 40-70.



are they not different questions? with the 40% referring to people who want to wear masks, even after the risks have reduced.

that is a surprisingly large Minority. not one I would include myself in, for what it’s worth.


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## xenon (Jul 9, 2021)

This whole wearing a mask when you have a cold. How do you blow or wipe your nose then. Surely you just don’t let the snot gather in the mask. I agree people should be more able to stay off work if they have such colds, but you know,


----------



## Raheem (Jul 9, 2021)

xenon said:


> are they not different questions? with the 40% referring to people who want to wear masks, even after the risks have reduced.
> 
> that is a surprisingly large Minority. not one I would include myself in, for what it’s worth.


Not sure it's clear whether the 40% all want masks to be mandatory in public places forever, or just for masks to carry on being a thing.


----------



## l'Otters (Jul 9, 2021)

Language like “cowering” is vile. the people on here who are taking extra care are people who have been told by their doctors they’d be highly unlikely to survive getting infected with covid. To use that term to describe their behaviour is well out of order.

As for myself I’m sick to the back teeth of my response to this pandemic being framed as about personal fear; it’s nearly always couched in sneering and mocking; too many peoples’ framing is purely about their individual personal risk & they seem completely oblivious to the entire dimension to this, where you change your behaviour to protect other people who perhaps you don’t even know.


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## krtek a houby (Jul 9, 2021)

platinumsage said:


> I've spent many more hours sitting on Japanese subway trains opposite unmasked sniffing people with runny noses than I have opposite mask wearers. And no it's not nonsense.



Masks have been commonplace here for decades. 

Not as commonplace as the last year or so, but when in season, you'll see as many wearing them as not.

For the reasons given above.

The makeup and spotty theory is made up and spotty, at best.


----------



## planetgeli (Jul 9, 2021)

platinumsage said:


> IME of HK, Taiwan and Japan, they were never exactly common, only a low single-figure percentage would wear them, often people who had a make-up/pimple disaster or something. Certainly plenty of sniveling cold-suffers wouldn't bother.



Ok, not HK, Japan or Taiwan. This is Hoi An, Vietnam, a town by the sea with relatively little air pollution. I took this photo in 2009. That's an awful lot of people having a bad make-up/zit day.



The majority are wearing a mask.


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## cupid_stunt (Jul 9, 2021)

xenon said:


> are they not different questions? with the 40% referring to people who want to wear masks, even after the risks have reduced.
> 
> that is a surprisingly large Minority. not one I would include myself in, for what it’s worth.



Same here.

The only reason I am going to keep wearing a mask for now, is because cases are going through the roof around here, up 146.5% in the last 7-days, so it seems logical to do such a small thing, that at least reduces the risk factor a bit.

The whole idea of making them optional with the current rocketing infection rates, rather than waiting a few more weeks until things hopefully start settling down, just seem fucking reckless and bizarre, TBH. 

It's just one big experiment to let the virus rip, I'll just observe it, but I am not bloody getting involved in it.


----------



## killer b (Jul 9, 2021)

l'Otters said:


> Language like “cowering” is vile. the people on here who are taking extra care are people who have been *told by their doctors they’d be highly unlikely to survive* getting infected with covid. To use that term to describe their behaviour is well out of order.


I think this is overegging it a bit - even the most at-risk groups have a good to very good chance of survival. But y'know - anything over a few percent is not something anyone sensible really wants to gamble with.


----------



## l'Otters (Jul 9, 2021)

Well I don’t want to tag specific people & I understand we’re not supposed to bring up details of stuff off of different threads so can’t really say much more than what I said already.


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## killer b (Jul 9, 2021)

l'Otters said:


> Well I don’t want to tag specific people & I understand we’re not supposed to bring up details of stuff off of different threads so can’t really say much more than what I said already.


My own partner is clinically extremely vulnerable, I wasn't able to see her for most of last year and a lot of this, she didn't leave her house for months and months. I've read a lot about the risk factors, and haven't seen any data that points towards any group being highly unlikely to survive infection. 

Her doctors did warn her that she needed to shield in the strongest possible terms, but her chances were still pretty good if she did actually get it (as indeed she did, in the end - and she's fine).


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## Elpenor (Jul 9, 2021)

planetgeli said:


> Ok, not HK, Japan or Taiwan. This is Hoi An, Vietnam, a town by the sea with relatively little air pollution. I took this photo in 2009. That's an awful lot of people having a bad make-up/zit day.
> 
> View attachment 277661
> 
> The majority are wearing a mask.


Probably to avoid tanning, I understand that light coloured skin is favoured in SE Asia amongst other places

Edit - a lot wearing gloves maybe for the same reason


----------



## planetgeli (Jul 9, 2021)

Elpenor said:


> Probably to avoid tanning, I understand that light coloured skin is favoured in SE Asia amongst other places
> 
> Edit - a lot wearing gloves maybe for the same reason



Yeah, tanning or the zits. Definitely nothing to do with Sars.


----------



## Spymaster (Jul 9, 2021)

planetgeli said:


> Yeah, tanning or the zits. Definitely nothing to do with Sars.


I’ve asked about this in Asia and to be fair, many seem to be under the misapprehension that they’re affording themselves protection from traffic pollution.


----------



## Yossarian (Jul 9, 2021)

platinumsage said:


> IME of HK, Taiwan and Japan, they were never exactly common, only a low single-figure percentage would wear them, often people who had a make-up/pimple disaster or something. Certainly plenty of sniveling cold-suffers wouldn't bother.



Yeah, never a huge proportion in HK wearing them in non-pandemic times but they seemed to go from relatively unusual to completely unremarkable post-SARS, IME. Probably wasn't that big of a pre and post-SARS change outside HK and Taiwan, the places that were hit the worst.


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## planetgeli (Jul 9, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> I’ve asked about this in Asia and to be fair, many seem to be under the misapprehension that they’re affording themselves protection from traffic pollution.



But in Hoi An, in 2009, traffic pollution?

Nope. It might be an anagram of Hanoi but the comparison stops there.


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## Doctor Carrot (Jul 9, 2021)

platinumsage said:


> it's mostly scared people cowering at home who think the government isn't enacting enough restrictions.


Or people who have to work in public facing roles who don't want to serve unmasked members of the public while there's high incidence of a pandemic virus that can cause severe disability even among the vaccinated? 

Speaking for myself and someone who you would no doubt place into your  patronising little category, I don't want more restrictions I want restrictions to remain as they are until there isn't huge amounts of pandemic virus spreading rapidly that can cause severe disability even among the vaccinated. 

The only reason I have to explain why a significant number of people in this country have a hard time grasping this is they don't have a hard time grasping this, instead they're just selfish pig headed pricks who don't really give a fuck about other people.


----------



## scalyboy (Jul 9, 2021)

Doctor Carrot said:


> Or people who have to work in public facing roles who don't want to serve unmasked members of the public while there's high incidence of a pandemic virus that can cause severe disability even among the vaccinated?
> 
> Speaking for myself and someone who you would no doubt place into your  patronising little category, I don't want more restrictions I want restrictions to remain as they are until there isn't huge amounts of pandemic virus spreading rapidly that can cause severe disability even among the vaccinated.
> 
> The only reason I have to explain why a significant number of people in this country have a hard time grasping this is they don't have a hard time grasping this, instead they're just selfish pig headed pricks who don't really give a fuck about other people.


Is this an instance of the misunderstanding (still prevalent despite repeated explanation to the contrary) that wearing a mask primarily protects the wearer?
Thus, only cowering, fearful people (  aka the elderly, clinically extremely vulnerable, people unable to be vaccinated for medical reasons) wish to wear a mask - the rest of the population will fearlessly go forth living their best lives.

In fact, and as has been explained many many times, the role of a standard (not an FFP2 F95 etc) mask is primarily to protect other people (especially the 'cowering' vulnerable ones) in case the wearer is infected with Covid. A sign of an increasingly selfish post-Thatch society ("there is no such thing as society?") that people cannot comprehend acting on behalf of others?


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## Doctor Carrot (Jul 9, 2021)

scalyboy said:


> Is this an instance of the misunderstanding (still prevalent despite repeated explanation to the contrary) that wearing a mask primarily protects the wearer?
> Thus, only cowering, fearful people (  aka the elderly, clinically extremely vulnerable, people unable to be vaccinated for medical reasons) wish to wear a mask - the rest of the population will fearlessly go forth living their best lives.
> 
> In fact, and as has been explained many many times, the role of a standard (not an FFP2 F95 etc) mask is primarily to protect other people (especially the 'cowering' vulnerable ones) in case the wearer is infected with Covid. A sign of an increasingly selfish post-Thatch society ("there is no such thing as society?") that people cannot comprehend acting on behalf of others?


I was going to mention the post thatcher society because I think what you say is in some way true. I still cling to the fact that most people wear masks and most people support them according to polling though. 

As I've already said, IME it's mostly men who perform that bollock scratching, shirt off I'm such a bloke type of masculinity and whatever the equivalent of that is depending on age, class etc. What's upset me throughout all this is just how many of them there are and just how many women want to match that type of attitude as well. 

It essentially all boils down to fuck you, I don't give a fuck about you you're just a shop worker. There's no consequences for thinking like that and, if anything, it's in many ways rewarded.


----------



## wtfftw (Jul 10, 2021)

I've just signed a petition to make passengers and workers safer by keeping mandatory masks on public transport. Add your name now: Keep masks on public transport


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## Orang Utan (Jul 10, 2021)

wtfftw said:


> I've just signed a petition to make passengers and workers safer by keeping mandatory masks on public transport. Add your name now: Keep masks on public transport


wish it was wider than that mind - including any public-facing workers


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## wtfftw (Jul 10, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> wish it was wider than that mind - including any public-facing workers


Same. I dunno if there's more. I just got the email for that one.


----------



## Johnny Vodka (Jul 10, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> wish it was wider than that mind - including any public-facing workers



Out of interest, do you think people should have to wear masks in pubs and clubs and to gigs?  (I'm guessing so.)


----------



## farmerbarleymow (Jul 10, 2021)

Ordered some FFP2 masks - better safe than sorry.


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## cupid_stunt (Jul 10, 2021)

wtfftw said:


> I've just signed a petition to make passengers and workers safer by keeping mandatory masks on public transport. Add your name now: Keep masks on public transport



I don't understand why people start petitions on these sort of sites, they just get totally ignored. 

At least they look at & respond to those set-up on the petition parliament site:









						Petitions - UK Government and Parliament
					






					petition.parliament.uk


----------



## LDC (Jul 10, 2021)

Johnny Vodka said:


> Out of interest, do you think people should have to wear masks in pubs and clubs and to gigs?  (I'm guessing so.)



Not him, but I'm not sure I do. I think things like public transport, public services like libraries, and shops are very different as people don't really have much of a choice to avoid them, but with pubs and clubs and gigs it's much easier to avoid if you take that decision to lessen your own risk.


----------



## farmerbarleymow (Jul 10, 2021)

cupid_stunt said:


> I don't understand why people start petitions on these sort of sites, they just get totally ignored.
> 
> At least they look at & respond to those set-up on the petition parliament site:
> 
> ...


Same here - I tend not to sign them because of that.  Don't know why people don't start them on the government site in the first place - I think anyone can start one if they want.


----------



## Johnny Vodka (Jul 10, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Not him, but I'm not sure I do. I think things like public transport, public services like libraries, and shops are very different as people don't really have much of a choice to avoid them, but with pubs and clubs and gigs it's much easier to avoid if you take that decision to lessen your own risk.



Yeah, that's my position, but at the same time, the people who work in pubs and clubs don't have a choice to avoid...


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## cupid_stunt (Jul 10, 2021)

Johnny Vodka said:


> Yeah, that's my position, but at the same time, the people who work in pubs and clubs don't have a choice to avoid...



Agreed, but it's impossible to eat or drink wearing a mask.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 10, 2021)

Johnny Vodka said:


> Out of interest, do you think people should have to wear masks in pubs and clubs and to gigs?  (I'm guessing so.)


yes, though i don’t think indoor clubs and gigs should be happening just yet


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 10, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Not him, but I'm not sure I do. I think things like public transport, public services like libraries, and shops are very different as people don't really have much of a choice to avoid them, but with pubs and clubs and gigs it's much easier to avoid if you take that decision to lessen your own risk.


unless you work in one


----------



## wtfftw (Jul 10, 2021)

cupid_stunt said:


> I don't understand why people start petitions on these sort of sites, they just get totally ignored.
> 
> At least they look at & respond to those set-up on the petition parliament site:
> 
> ...


Yeah for this I'm not sure organise can do much really but the parliament petition wouldn't have a quick enough turnaround time.


----------



## MickiQ (Jul 10, 2021)

farmerbarleymow said:


> Same here - I tend not to sign them because of that.  Don't know why people don't start them on the government site in the first place - I think anyone can start one if they want.


Does the Cabinet ever actually even see petitions on things like change.org or organise? At the end of day they have no more legal status than one passed around in the pub (remember when we had such things?) and unless someone tells Boris that there is such a petition he'll never even know (and we know he doesn't care). The official parliamentary ones at least someone does look and presumably tells the appropriate minister that x number of people care about y.


----------



## Johnny Vodka (Jul 10, 2021)

cupid_stunt said:


> Agreed, but it's impossible to eat or drink wearing a mask.



Yup.  And apart from that I think they would just destroy any atmosphere.  Maybe they do need to look at only admitting people who have been double vaccinated, at least in the short term.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jul 10, 2021)

farmerbarleymow said:


> Ordered some FFP2 masks - better safe than sorry.


Absolutely would not go back to the crappy blue ones after using KN95s (which are an equivalent standard to ffp2). Just way better in all respects - tougher, better seal, glasses steam up less.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Jul 10, 2021)

gentlegreen said:


> The maskless numbers in my local supermarkets are picking up. It's like the announcement was sufficient - perhaps two weeks was too long to wait ...
> It's a shock to see more and more of my local Aldi *staff *maskless - and today it wasn't "just" shelf-stackers, but today it was someone vocally directing people to the self-service tills ..


Yeah, last night in my local Aldi there were four customers without masks out of maybe 12 customers that I could see, and none of the staff had masks on.


----------



## thismoment (Jul 11, 2021)

A couple of days last week I found myself to be only one adult wearing a mask in some indoor spaces at work and I’ll admit that I felt very awkward


----------



## krtek a houby (Jul 11, 2021)

thismoment said:


> A couple of days last week I found myself to be only one adult wearing a mask in some indoor spaces at work and I’ll admit that I felt very awkward



Still, better than feeling infected.


----------



## LDC (Jul 11, 2021)

I'm at work today and there's a committed non-mask wearer there, despite having been told by management more than once (she's anti-vax and borderline covid denier from what I've heard her say). I've been really careful the last ten days so tomorrow I can go and see some elderly folks for a few days at a lower risk level. I'm going to be really very pissed off if she's swanning about the building without a mask again.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Jul 11, 2021)

I had missed this, from a couple of weeks ago, but Israel has reintroduced a requirement to wear masks indoors, despite their vaccination programme being ahead of the UK, thanks to the delta variant their average daily new cases has gone from 16 to 452 in a month, whereas in the same period we have gone from 6,556 to 30,144.   









						Coronavirus: Israel reimposes masks amid new virus fears
					

It comes just days after the last restriction was lifted, as concerns grow over a spate of cases.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## bimble (Jul 11, 2021)

i cant even comment on this, just read it, what the hell are we doing. 








						‘Their childhood has been stolen’: calls for action to tackle long Covid
					

MPs and peers demand review of debilitating condition as fears grow of surge among young after 19 July lifting




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## cupid_stunt (Jul 11, 2021)

Common sense to prevail in Wales, and no doubt Scotland too. 



> In Wales, masks must still be worn in taxis, on trains and buses, as well as health and social care settings when coronavirus restrictions are eased, the Welsh government said.
> 
> It added that "active further consideration" is being given to whether they will still be required by law in other settings, like retail.
> 
> First Minister Mark Drakeford said: "We will need everyone's help to keep coronavirus under control as we continue to respond to the pandemic - this virus has quite certainly not gone away.





> Scottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon is due to announce her country's next steps out of lockdown on Tuesday, but
> has already described Mr Johnson's approach as "something of an exception", appearing to indicate hers will be more cautious.
> 
> In Northern Ireland, the removal of rules around all face coverings, with regulations potentially replaced by guidance, are due to be considered next month.











						Will you continue using a face mask after 19 July?
					

I don't understand why people start petitions on these sort of sites, they just get totally ignored.  At least they look at & respond to those set-up on the petition parliament site:  https://petition.parliament.uk  Same here - I tend not to sign them because of that.  Don't know why people...




					www.urban75.net


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Jul 11, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> I'm at work today and there's a committed non-mask wearer there, despite having been told by management more than once (she's anti-vax and borderline covid denier from what I've heard her say). I've been really careful the last ten days so tomorrow I can go and see some elderly folks for a few days at a lower risk level. I'm going to be really very pissed off if she's swanning about the building without a mask again.


She will definitely be swanning about without a mask again.


----------



## LDC (Jul 11, 2021)

It's really hard to know how to deal with it. It's been noted by a few other people at work as well. I did talk to her a month or two back which was when I realised she was a conspiracy person. It's been brought to the attention of management twice. I also chatted to her line manager who said she knew and had told her repeatedly, but she still doesn't wear one.


----------



## Thora (Jul 11, 2021)

So, masks are back on..?








						People ‘expected’ to wear face masks in enclosed public spaces after 19 July under new guidance, vaccines minister says
					

Government ‘confident’ legal restrictions can be lifted on 19 July, minister adds




					www.independent.co.uk


----------



## cupid_stunt (Jul 11, 2021)

Thora said:


> So, masks are back on..?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Looks like it's only going to be advice, and will not be legally binding, about as dumb as it could get.


----------



## Badgers (Jul 11, 2021)

Useless murdering cunt shop of a government


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 11, 2021)

Thora said:


> So, masks are back on..?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


oh great, looking forward to telling customers that i ‘expect’ them to still wear a mask


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 11, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> It's really hard to know how to deal with it. It's been noted by a few other people at work as well. I did talk to her a month or two back which was when I realised she was a conspiracy person. It's been brought to the attention of management twice. I also chatted to her line manager who said she knew and had told her repeatedly, but she still doesn't wear one.


shouldn’t it be a disciplinary issue?


----------



## LDC (Jul 11, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> shouldn’t it be a disciplinary issue?



I guess, but think it's probably a complicated one, and also think management are probably understandably avoiding it tbh. Bonkers though, healthcare setting and we're struggling with sickness anyway, she could in theory close the place down with her actions. Especially as if she's not mask wearing as I expect that means she's probably not following any other guidance either.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 11, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> I guess, but think it's probably a complicated one, and also think management are probably understandably avoiding it tbh. Bonkers though, healthcare setting and we're struggling with sickness anyway, she could in theory close the place down with her actions. Especially as if she's not mask wearing as I expect that means she's probably not following any other guidance either.


you could perhaps band together with colleagues and tell management that you won’t work with her unless she dons a mask?


----------



## Badgers (Jul 11, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> I guess, but think it's probably a complicated one, and also think management are probably understandably avoiding it tbh. Bonkers though, healthcare setting and we're struggling with sickness anyway, she could in theory close the place down with her actions. Especially as if she's not mask wearing as I expect that means she's probably not following any other guidance either.


Just key their car or shit in their lunch


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Jul 11, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> you could perhaps band together with colleagues and tell management that you won’t work with her unless she dons a mask?


This. In hindsight I wish I'd walked out first lockdown and said I'm not coming back to work unless you put screens up and stop people entering without masks. 

If something similar can be done with regards to the mask less conspiracy fuck nut then do it.


----------



## elbows (Jul 11, 2021)

Thora said:


> So, masks are back on..?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The fucking idiotic government appear to be nervous that they've misjudged the public mood and that their freedom rhetoric is a reckless multiplier of relaxed attitudes.

Assuming there is a press conference to accompany tomorrows announcements, the mixed messages are, like last week, bound to be farcical and desperate.


----------



## StoneRoad (Jul 11, 2021)

Having considered the situation again (as I do on a frequent basis) I'm going to keep wearing my good FFP2 mask in places it is necessary to protect others and myself (and the members of my household). 
Such as shops, at work, in crowded places (especially indoors) and on public transport.
We've gone back onto on-line food shopping [with the exception of milk, which will be bought locally as keeping a week's supply cold in the summer is difficult even with two fridges and two freezers].
And our planned trips to places of interest / cafes & pubs etc are going to be postponed until the case rate drops back to a sensible [low] level.
OH has been tutoring our great-niece, but that is also postponed for a while [that household was shielding].

I have at least two trips away for work booked within the next few weeks and I can't, thanks to BoJo's "freedom day" shite, really call them off, yet again. I'll just have to take extra, extra precautions ...


----------



## scalyboy (Jul 11, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> I guess, but think it's probably a complicated one, and also think management are probably understandably avoiding it tbh. Bonkers though, healthcare setting and we're struggling with sickness anyway, she could in theory close the place down with her actions. Especially as if she's not mask wearing as I expect that means she's probably not following any other guidance either.


Extremely frustrating situation - sounds to me too like it should be a disciplinary matter but if management are shying away from that, is there any chance of union involvement? Is this person in a union and if so, is it the same union as you and other colleagues, so could there be a union ‘sit-down’ and attempt to mediate / persuade them?


----------



## LDC (Jul 11, 2021)

scalyboy said:


> Extremely frustrating situation - sounds to me too like it should be a disciplinary matter but if management are shying away from that, is there any chance of union involvement? Is this person in a union and if so is it the same union as you and other colleagues?



Fat fucking chance! I dealt with it in a very mature professional way as when they weren't wearing a mask and refused to I told them they were either monumentally thick as shit or fucking selfish, or possibly both. They've avoided me all day although everyone else here has been nice. Been told to file a serious incident report about it. About them, not about me being mean.


----------



## 8ball (Jul 11, 2021)

Thora said:


> So, masks are back on..?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It's just too weird.  I think there must be a lot of infighting leading to this incoherence.


----------



## Ax^ (Jul 11, 2021)

standard ploy through the pandemic really

don't give proper instructions and then they can just blame the public for spreading the virus


----------



## scalyboy (Jul 11, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Fat fucking chance! I dealt with it in a very mature professional way as when they weren't wearing a mask and refused to I told them they were either monumentally thick as shit or fucking selfish, or possibly both. They've avoided me all day although everyone else here has been nice. Been told to file a serious incident report about it. About them, not about me being mean.


I’d be f***ing furious at management’s failure to take responsibility and sort this anti-mask idiot, but if a serious incident report shames them into taking action…?


----------



## 8ball (Jul 11, 2021)

I've noticed _loads_ of people not wearing masks on public transport recently.  They just play passive-aggressive announcements over the tannoy in response.

They have a different passive-aggressive message for when too many people are on the tram.


----------



## Badgers (Jul 12, 2021)

100% yes

One of my team managers who had Covid and two vaccinations has just tested positive and has nasty symptoms  he has unlimited access to PPE and has been working outdoors all week.

Also read this...









						Chief nurse of York and Scarborough hospitals warns that their severely ill Covid-19 patients have been double jabbed
					

Residents of York and Scarborough have been warned that they can still get sick from Covid even if they have had the vaccine.




					www.yorkshirepost.co.uk


----------



## Voley (Jul 12, 2021)

cupid_stunt said:


> I don't understand why people start petitions on these sort of sites, they just get totally ignored.
> 
> At least they look at & respond to those set-up on the petition parliament site:
> 
> ...











						Petition: Keep requirement to wear a face covering in shops & supermarkets after July 19th
					

Keep the legal requirement to wear a face covering in shops & supermarkets after July 19th, until there is a substantial decline in Covid 19 transmission cases and more of the population double-jabbed.




					petition.parliament.uk
				




There's one on that site now.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Jul 12, 2021)

Voley said:


> Petition: Keep requirement to wear a face covering in shops & supermarkets after July 19th
> 
> 
> Keep the legal requirement to wear a face covering in shops & supermarkets after July 19th, until there is a substantial decline in Covid 19 transmission cases and more of the population double-jabbed.
> ...



Cheers. Signed.


----------



## Voley (Jul 12, 2021)

This feels personal to me now. I've just spent the last week looking after my Mum who has Covid. She got it despite living in the middle of nowhere,  barely going out for the last 18 months and, crucially, being double-jabbed. 

And we're ditching mandatory face coverings. I fucking despair, I really do.


----------



## two sheds (Jul 12, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> I’ve asked about this in Asia and to be fair, many seem to be under the misapprehension that they’re affording themselves protection from traffic pollution.


Not even from particulates?


----------



## two sheds (Jul 12, 2021)

Voley said:


> This feels personal to me now. I've just spent the last week looking after my Mum who has Covid. She got it despite living in the middle of nowhere,  barely going out for the last 18 months and, crucially, being double-jabbed.
> 
> And we're ditching mandatory face coverings. I fucking despair, I really do.


Sorry to hear that - do you know how she caught it?


----------



## Voley (Jul 12, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Sorry to hear that - do you know how she caught it?


Almost certainly from a guy who did some work on our house; one of only a handful of people who've been in since the beginning of the pandemic. Developed symptoms/ tested positive while he was working here. We've subsequently discovered he's not been jabbed because he's an anti-vaxxer.


----------



## Badgers (Jul 12, 2021)

Voley said:


> This feels personal to me now. I've just spent the last week looking after my Mum who has Covid. She got it despite living in the middle of nowhere,  barely going out for the last 18 months and, crucially, being double-jabbed.
> 
> And we're ditching mandatory face coverings. I fucking despair, I really do.



It feels like swimming against the tide


----------



## two sheds (Jul 12, 2021)

Voley said:


> Almost certainly from a guy who did some work on our house; one of only a handful of people who've been in since the beginning of the pandemic. Developed symptoms/ tested positive while he was working here. We've subsequently discovered he's not been jabbed because he's an anti-vaxxer.


Twats like that should be liable for cost of care  . I'm sure someone will bring a test case sometime.


----------



## Cloo (Jul 12, 2021)

'Excuse me,  please could you put a face mask on because a minister said you ought to?'


----------



## sojourner (Jul 12, 2021)

Thora said:


> So, masks are back on..?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeh, I noticed how when it was announced, they didn't even refer to previous reports of masks not being required anymore


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jul 13, 2021)

I can forsee all sorts of beef between people who continue to wear masks and people who don't bother. Which will only increase the woes of those worried for their health or the health of others; as well as increasing the sense of bravely taking on a repressive establishment that anti-maskers have conjured up to avoid admitting that they're just perfectly ordinary selfish cunts.


----------



## Maggot (Jul 14, 2021)

Good move from Sadiq Khan.









						Covid: Masks to remain compulsory on London transport
					

Face coverings must be worn despite restrictions easing in England on 19 July, London's mayor says.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## scalyboy (Jul 14, 2021)

Maggot said:


> Good move from Sadiq Khan.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Good move Khan. Having said that, I’ve never seen any enforcement of mandatory masks on buses or tubes (not enough staff, probably) and there’s an increasing number of ‘no one is the boss of me’, ‘fearless, freedom-loving’ mask refusers on public transport. 

But without this decision by Khan I guess there’d be even more in the coming weeks


----------



## scalyboy (Jul 14, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> I can forsee all sorts of beef between people who continue to wear masks and people who don't bother. Which will only increase the woes of those worried for their health or the health of others; as well as increasing the sense of bravely taking on a repressive establishment that anti-maskers have conjured up to avoid admitting that they're just perfectly ordinary selfish cunts.


Would it work if TfL / Khan designated a tube carriage or carriages on each train (for example, second carriage from the front, front three carriages) as a no-mask zone?

Obviously not everyone would comply, but I   have noticed a certain amount of ‘policing’ of the quiet coach by passengers (myself on occasion) on national rail trains when someone is jabbering away loudly talking shite on their phone in said coach.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jul 14, 2021)

scalyboy said:


> Would it work if TfL / Khan designated a tube carriage or carriages on each train (for example, second carriage from the front, front three carriages) as a no-mask zone?
> 
> Obviously not everyone would comply, but I   have noticed a certain amount of ‘policing’ of the quiet coach by passengers (myself on occasion) on national rail trains when someone is jabbering away loudly talking shite on their phone in said coach.



There would be maskless people who refused to sit in the designated carriage because it represented an inexcusable curtailment of their rights. Also tube trains are long and you've only got a few seconds to get on them, so picking either a rat licker or non-rat licker carriage would be impractical.

Also it's not fair to lump legitimately exempt people in with the refuseniks and thus put them at greater risk.


----------



## gentlegreen (Jul 14, 2021)

scalyboy said:


> Would it work if TfL / Khan designated a tube carriage or carriages on each train (for example, second carriage from the front, front three carriages) as a no-mask zone?
> 
> Obviously not everyone would comply, but I   have noticed a certain amount of ‘policing’ of the quiet coach by passengers (myself on occasion) on national rail trains when someone is jabbering away loudly talking shite on their phone in said coach.


Smoking vs non-smoking.
It's a shame covid couldn't mutate usefully and start to glow in the dark or make people spotty  ...


----------



## scalyboy (Jul 14, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> Also it's not fair to lump legitimately exempt people in with the refuseniks and thus put them at greater risk.


True, good point


----------



## Elpenor (Jul 14, 2021)

And some tube trains are completely walkthrough from end to end, so some tosspot would contend it’s an unbroken carriage.


----------



## two sheds (Jul 14, 2021)

... under the Magna Carta


----------



## cyril_smear (Jul 14, 2021)

No.


----------



## mentalchik (Jul 14, 2021)

Having had lots of discussions at work about this since i last posted on this thread.....most of us (myself included) have come to the decision that we will be keeping our masks......fully expect a lot of customers won't wear one as we have had a continuous battle since it started and as people quickly cottoned on to the fact that if they just say they're exempt we can't do anything about it anyway,,,,,,(ime at work it's youngsters and youngish men that are the worst) we have never had a policy to stop people coming in if they don't wear a mask and over the last year or so have had many VERY aggressive moments with people on this subject.....i don't get the logic of saying we are stopping it being mandatory but we'd still like you to wear one


----------



## Mr Retro (Jul 14, 2021)

This is Khan playing politics and trying to placate the unions. I’ll no longer be wearing a mask anywhere from next Monday


----------



## cupid_stunt (Jul 14, 2021)

Mr Retro said:


> This is Khan playing politics and trying to placate the unions. I’ll no longer be wearing a mask anywhere from next Monday



Well, if you are using public transport, I hope you are one of the few that will get caught out by your shit attitude.


----------



## Mrs Miggins (Jul 14, 2021)

Mr Retro said:


> This is Khan playing politics and trying to placate the unions. I’ll no longer be wearing a mask anywhere from next Monday


Good for you. Do whatever you like.


----------



## LDC (Jul 14, 2021)

Mr Retro said:


> This is Khan playing politics and trying to placate the unions. I’ll no longer be wearing a mask anywhere from next Monday



Placating the unions! _THE HORROR! _Keeping them happy by doing something to protect workers (and the public), how fucking disgusting.

You fucking prick.


----------



## two sheds (Jul 14, 2021)

Mr Retro said:


> This is Khan playing politics and trying to placate the unions. I’ll no longer be wearing a mask anywhere from next Monday


Don't forget to breathe over some vulnerable people. They'll thank you for it.


----------



## StoneRoad (Jul 14, 2021)

Anyone visiting our workshop and wanting to come inside will be wearing a mask - not just as anti-covid but for dust protection. Otherwise we'll talk outside ...
This has been the rule for all time, and it is staying that way.

The floor area and bench working layout means everybody can stay well away from everybody else, anyway. And the wood dust is a good reason to keep masks on ...


----------



## StoneRoad (Jul 14, 2021)

Mr Retro said:


> This is Khan playing politics and trying to placate the unions. I’ll no longer be wearing a mask anywhere from next Monday


get to fuck, you murdering twat.
Khan is being sensible with maintaining a policy designed to moderate risk, unlike that twat b0j0
Just wish Khan had the means to enforce the policy.


----------



## Supine (Jul 14, 2021)

Mr Retro said:


> This is Khan playing politics and trying to placate the unions. I’ll no longer be wearing a mask anywhere from next Monday



Prick


----------



## souljacker (Jul 14, 2021)

Mr Retro said:


> This is Khan playing politics and trying to placate the unions. I’ll no longer be wearing a mask anywhere from next Monday



Great. You won't be allowed on and the rest of us can travel safely.


----------



## bimble (Jul 14, 2021)

souljacker said:


> Great. You won't be allowed on and the rest of us can travel safely.


of course he's allowed on. if asked he can just say exempt.
i wonder if things will actually look that much different before and after Freedom Day, some places will have masks required, some won't, some people will wear them some won't.


----------



## Badgers (Jul 14, 2021)

Mr Retro said:


> This is Khan playing politics and trying to placate the unions. I’ll no longer be wearing a mask anywhere from next Monday


Cunt


----------



## cyril_smear (Jul 14, 2021)

I know of a company in Leeds where agency workers have been told if they do t wear a mask post 19/7 they’ll be let go.


----------



## Mrs Miggins (Jul 14, 2021)

cyril_smear said:


> I know of a company in Leeds where agency workers have been told if they do t wear a mask post 19/7 they’ll be let go.


Who's that then?


----------



## Mrs Miggins (Jul 14, 2021)

bimble said:


> of course he's allowed on. if asked he can just say exempt.
> i wonder if things will actually look that much different before and after Freedom Day, some places will have masks required, some won't, some people will wear them some won't.


Nobody enforces it anyway. There was nobody checking at the height of the pandemic so there certainly won't be anyone doing it now.


----------



## souljacker (Jul 14, 2021)

bimble said:


> of course he's allowed on. if asked he can just say exempt.
> i wonder if things will actually look that much different before and after Freedom Day, some places will have masks required, some won't, some people will wear them some won't.


Yeah, I know. Just wanted to respond more eloquently than just saying cunt!


----------



## bimble (Jul 14, 2021)

Mrs Miggins said:


> Nobody enforces it anyway. There was nobody checking at the height of the pandemic so there certainly won't be anyone doing it now.


Yep. You’d have to pay me quite a lot of money to add ‘tell angry selfish twats to put a mask on’ to my job description & I think even more after 19th.


----------



## existentialist (Jul 14, 2021)

Mr Retro said:


> This is Khan playing politics and trying to placate the unions. I’ll no longer be wearing a mask anywhere from next Monday


Yeah, but that's just because you're a cunt, not for any kind of proper reason


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 14, 2021)

Mr Retro said:


> This is Khan playing politics and trying to placate the unions. I’ll no longer be wearing a mask anywhere from next Monday


you will on public transport and you will if you come into my library


----------



## Mr Retro (Jul 14, 2021)

StoneRoad said:


> get to fuck, you murdering twat.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Jul 14, 2021)

Mr Retro said:


> This is Khan playing politics and trying to placate the unions. I’ll no longer be wearing a mask anywhere from next Monday


You probably will if you need to for certain things, like e.g. visit a GP. You might be able to bamboozle your way around pretending to be exempt in some places, but your GP will have your medical records. Other shops may refuse to serve you anyway. And if you get too near some people you may get a reaction you don't expect. Anyway, you're obviously a complete prannet.


----------



## bimble (Jul 14, 2021)

Even if TFL hired thousands of brave mask-enforcers ‘I’m exempt’ has always been the end of the conversation hasn’t it.


----------



## existentialist (Jul 14, 2021)

Mr Retro said:


>


Word to the wise thick: you are almost certainly the *only *person on Urban who thinks you're funny.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 14, 2021)

my work has been shit about this. we were promised a communique today about what will change on Monday and only today got  a mealy mouthed email that went along with the Government line (surprised at this as they’re a Labour Council) but said nothing about customers using masks, just staff. no other info about other measures, so still in the dark about what exactly we’ll be doing five days from now


----------



## miss direct (Jul 14, 2021)

Good to see masks will still be required on the tube. Wish someone here in Sheffield would have the balls to say the same for transport here.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 14, 2021)

miss direct said:


> Good to see masks will still be required on the tube. Wish someone here in Sheffield would have the balls to say the same for transport here.


Tracy Brabin, the West Yorkshire Mayor, has said pretty much what Khan has said about masks on public transport and in bus stations. just West Yorkshire though, not South


----------



## elbows (Jul 14, 2021)

Mr Retro said:


> This is Khan playing politics and trying to placate the unions. I’ll no longer be wearing a mask anywhere from next Monday


Is this a preview of your famous last words to come?

"Its just the virus playing politics with my lung tissue..."


----------



## Dystopiary (Jul 14, 2021)




----------



## xenon (Jul 14, 2021)

Playing politics? What the hell do you think Johnson has been doing. You thick cunt, yeah add me to your ignore list.
Mr Retro


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Jul 14, 2021)

Mr Retro said:


> This is Khan playing politics and trying to placate the unions. I’ll no longer be wearing a mask anywhere from next Monday


This is because you’re a cunt.


----------



## cyril_smear (Jul 14, 2021)

Mrs Miggins said:


> Who's that then?


Clipper Logistics in LS12

Company policy, apparently.

I think I’d just tell them to shove it if I worked there.


----------



## cyril_smear (Jul 14, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> you will on public transport and you will if you come into my library


Are you allowed to enforce it?


----------



## bimble (Jul 14, 2021)

Dystopiary said:


>



Yep. Of course he’ll be pleased. No downside for him at all.


----------



## xenon (Jul 14, 2021)

Mrs Miggins said:


> Nobody enforces it anyway. There was nobody checking at the height of the pandemic so there certainly won't be anyone doing it now.



The recorded announcements are well annoying too. Every 10 minutes. I mean who doesn’t know by now.


----------



## elbows (Jul 14, 2021)

bimble said:


> Yep. Of course he’ll be pleased. No downside for him at all.


Until he finds out that TfL are going to hand out masks with JohnsonVariant written on them.


----------



## bimble (Jul 14, 2021)

i'd like to see a big survey that asks people do you intend to bin yr mask on monday & did you vote conservative at the last election. I reckon a fairly good match but then maybe not, with older people seemingly more cautious.


----------



## Mr Retro (Jul 14, 2021)

xenon said:


> Playing politics? What the hell do you think Johnson has been doing. You thick cunt, yeah add me to your ignore list.
> Mr Retro


Another bully from the mob who can't interact without personal insults


----------



## mentalchik (Jul 14, 2021)

xenon said:


> I mean who doesn’t know by now.


you'd be suprised....


----------



## bimble (Jul 14, 2021)

Bonkers situation, all the big shops are apparently sitting in meetings about what to do from Monday. 
Sainbury's is eager to corner the market for the Mr Retros it seems. 








						Supermarket mask rules will change from July 19 including at Tesco and Asda
					

The government’s requirement to wear a mask in shops will lift on July 19




					www.mylondon.news


----------



## cyril_smear (Jul 14, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> you will on public transport and you will if you come into my library


What you gonna do if they refuse? Phone the police?

Seeing as it’s no longer law to wear masks you’d probably look a wally.

Edit: nobody is wearing masks in shops, public transport already and haven’t been for some time.... including the staff 🤷‍♂️


----------



## 8ball (Jul 14, 2021)

People were wearing masks in shops when I was out a few minutes ago.


----------



## elbows (Jul 14, 2021)

Mr Retro said:


> Another bully from the mob who can't interact without personal insults


When faced with a mob, mask wearing becomes even more crucial.


----------



## elbows (Jul 14, 2021)

cyril_smear said:


> What you gonna do if they refuse? Phone the police?
> 
> Seeing as it’s no longer law to wear masks you’d probably look a wally.
> 
> Edit: nobody is wearing masks in shops, public transport already and haven’t been for some time.... including the staff 🤷‍♂️


You are misusing the word nobody.


----------



## cyril_smear (Jul 14, 2021)

elbows said:


> You are misusing the word nobody.


Correct, I am. Many people I.e the majority.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 14, 2021)

cyril_smear said:


> Are you allowed to enforce it?


we’ve been doing so for nearly a year


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 14, 2021)

cyril_smear said:


> Correct, I am. Many people I.e the majority.


now you're confusing many with majority.

i get the feeling you've not really got to grips with this thing called language


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 14, 2021)

cyril_smear said:


> What you gonna do if they refuse? Phone the police?
> 
> Seeing as it’s no longer law to wear masks you’d probably look a wally.
> 
> Edit: nobody is wearing masks in shops, public transport already and haven’t been for some time.... including the staff 🤷‍♂️


we don’t let them in, that’s all
there are plenty of people wearing masks wherever i’ve been about


----------



## killer b (Jul 14, 2021)

cyril_smear said:


> Edit: nobody is wearing masks in shops, public transport already and haven’t been for some time.... including the staff 🤷‍♂️


this isn't even slightly true.


----------



## StoneRoad (Jul 14, 2021)

Not round here [SW Northumberland]

A large majority are still wearing masks in shops and on public transport.


----------



## bimble (Jul 14, 2021)

cyril_smear said:


> Seeing as it’s no longer law to wear masks you’d probably look a wally.


i think this is going to be the key thing - how worried you are about 'looking like a wally' will mostly decide what you do next.
Men & young people most susceptible to this as an overriding concern, i think, in general.


----------



## cyril_smear (Jul 14, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> we’ve been doing so for nearly a year


But the compulsion ends on Monday


----------



## Elpenor (Jul 14, 2021)

cyril_smear said:


> But the compulsion ends on Monday


If you were no longer compelled to wear a seat belt in a car, would you still wear one?


----------



## cyril_smear (Jul 14, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> now you're confusing many with majority.
> 
> i get the feeling you've not really got to grips with this thing called language


I get the feel g your a bit deluded/live in the suburbs/live in a fantasy world


----------



## cyril_smear (Jul 14, 2021)

Elpenor said:


> If you were no longer compelled to wear a seat belt in a car, would you still wear one?


Definitely


----------



## cyril_smear (Jul 14, 2021)

killer b said:


> this isn't even slightly true.


Depends where you live I suppose


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 14, 2021)

cyril_smear said:


> I get the feel g your a bit deluded/live in the suburbs/live in a fantasy world


i've always been very clear that i live in hackney. hackney is not a suburb.

and as for my being deluded, i suppose i am in expecting anything other than utter bollocks from you. and it's only utter bollocks on a good day, you mostly struggle to achieve even that. if i lived in a fantasy world you wouldn't be here.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 14, 2021)

cyril_smear said:


> But the compulsion ends on Monday


yes, but we may still insist on people wearing them all the same


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 14, 2021)

cyril_smear said:


> Depends where you live I suppose


i just went shopping on Harehills Lane and the majority are wearing masks in the shops, many of them outside too


----------



## Elpenor (Jul 14, 2021)

cyril_smear said:


> Definitely


Ok, we’ve established you’re bothered about protecting yourself.

How about if there was no rule against drink driving? would you five and drive?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 14, 2021)

Elpenor said:


> Ok, we’ve established you’re not bothered about protecting yourself.
> 
> How about if there was no rule against drink driving? would you five and drive?


five? on a light morning, he'd be 8+1 most of the time


----------



## Dystopiary (Jul 14, 2021)

Elpenor said:


> Ok, we’ve established you’re not bothered about protecting yourself.
> 
> How about if there was no rule against drink driving? would you five and drive?


To be fair he said he would wear a seatbelt.


----------



## Elpenor (Jul 14, 2021)

Dystopiary said:


> To be fair he said he would wear a seatbelt.


Looks like I misread his response then. Must be my age


----------



## Dystopiary (Jul 14, 2021)

Elpenor said:


> Looks like I misread his response then. Must be my age


We've all done it.


----------



## existentialist (Jul 14, 2021)

Dystopiary said:


> To be fair he said he would wear a seatbelt.


Just to note the fundamental difference between seatbelts and masks: the former are primarily there to protect the wearer; the latter are for protecting others.

So perhaps it's no wonder, given his attitude, that he's happy to wear a seatbelt, but not so happy to wear a mask.


----------



## Elpenor (Jul 14, 2021)

That was the point I was trying to express by drawing a parallel with drink driving. Not very coherent today due to pain.


----------



## pbsmooth (Jul 14, 2021)

masks help you too! if they stop your spit going in someone else's gob then they stop someone else's going in yours too.

still most people wearing them in shops round me in south london.


----------



## existentialist (Jul 14, 2021)

crojoe said:


> masks help you too! if they stop your spit going in someone else's gob then they stop someone else's going in yours too.
> 
> still most people wearing them in shops round me in south london.


Yeah - that's why I said "primarily"!


----------



## Mr Retro (Jul 14, 2021)

Been kicked off the other thread because editor has a sad longstanding beef from the Brixton board where he didn’t like me calling out his dishonesty and hypocrisy . I would have done the same there with his replies so it is a good move on his part, it will save him embarrassment and me some time.

As we’re off on holiday for a month next week I guess it’s a good time to take another extended break from Urban. Home of bully’s, personal abuse and logical fallacy. Don't reply or @ me I won't see it. 

Good luck to all, I hope this next wave plateaus and falls back again soon and the vaccinations prevent a further heavy winter wave.


----------



## pbsmooth (Jul 14, 2021)

sorry didn't hear you proper with the mask ;-)


----------



## existentialist (Jul 14, 2021)

Mr Retro said:


> Been kicked off the other thread because editor has a sad longstanding beef from the Brixton board where he didn’t like me calling out his dishonesty and hypocrisy . I would have done the same there with his replies so it is a good move on his part, it will save him embarrassment and me some time.
> 
> As we’re off on holiday for a month next week I guess it’s a good time to take another extended break from Urban. Home of bully’s, personal abuse and logical fallacy. Don't reply or @ me I won't see it.
> 
> Good luck to all, I hope this next wave plateaus and falls back again soon and the vaccinations prevent a further heavy winter wave.


No. You were kicked off the other thread for peddling misinformation. And, probably, a little bit because you're a cunt.

Still, I guess, judging by this post of yours, you're quite happy to end up being banned from all of Urban?


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jul 14, 2021)

Mr Retro said:


> Been kicked off the other thread


Don't start it up here eh, I think that goes without saying

though given that I am saying it, it apparently doesn't, before somebody points that out, I know what you lot are like


----------



## editor (Jul 14, 2021)

Mr Retro said:


> Been kicked off the other thread because editor has a sad longstanding beef from the Brixton board where he didn’t like me calling out his dishonesty and hypocrisy . I would have done the same there with his replies so it is a good move on his part, it will save him embarrassment and me some time.


Err, no. It's because a load of posters reported you and called you out on the dishonest, outdated and misleading information you were posting. 

And 16 posters have already liked the post where you got rightly kicked off for peddling your weird bullshit, so it was anything but personal.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 14, 2021)

Mr Retro said:


> Been kicked off the other thread because editor has a sad longstanding beef from the Brixton board where he didn’t like me calling out his dishonesty and hypocrisy . I would have done the same there with his replies so it is a good move on his part, it will save him embarrassment and me some time.
> 
> As we’re off on holiday for a month next week I guess it’s a good time to take another extended break from Urban. Home of bully’s, personal abuse and logical fallacy. Don't reply or @ me I won't see it.
> 
> Good luck to all, I hope this next wave plateaus and falls back again soon and the vaccinations prevent a further heavy winter wave.


thank god he's gone. how delusional that he thinks this is about a Brixton beef, rather than spreading dangerous misinformation and outing himself as either a thick or obtuse selfidh libertarian


----------



## cyril_smear (Jul 14, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> i've always been very clear that i live in hackney. hackney is not a suburb.



What we call an estate snob. You can’t afford the suburbs but you think you could if you wanted to; you pretend you only stay there because it’s hip, and you don’t want to forget your roots? Is that a fair analogy?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 14, 2021)

cyril_smear said:


> What we call an estate snob. You can’t afford the suburbs but you think you could if you wanted to; you pretend you only stay there because it’s hip, and you don’t want to forget your roots? Is that a fair analogy?


It's not an analogy and it's bollocks


----------



## cyril_smear (Jul 14, 2021)

Elpenor said:


> Ok, we’ve established you’re bothered about protecting yourself.
> 
> How about if there was no rule against drink driving? would you five and drive?


Definitely not... yep, I’m intentionally walking into your trap; get to the point.


----------



## cyril_smear (Jul 14, 2021)

Elpenor said:


> Looks like I misread his response then. Must be my age


You daft old brush.


----------



## cyril_smear (Jul 14, 2021)

I don’t want to wear a mask simply because in the middle of summer it’s too much. No other reason.


----------



## colacubes (Jul 14, 2021)

Mr Retro said:


> Been kicked off the other thread because editor has a sad longstanding beef from the Brixton board where he didn’t like me calling out his dishonesty and hypocrisy . I would have done the same there with his replies so it is a good move on his part, it will save him embarrassment and me some time.
> 
> As we’re off on holiday for a month next week I guess it’s a good time to take another extended break from Urban. Home of bully’s, personal abuse and logical fallacy. Don't reply or @ me I won't see it.
> 
> Good luck to all, I hope this next wave plateaus and falls back again soon and the vaccinations prevent a further heavy winter wave.


You probably don’t remember mate but we used to share a table occasionally at The Albert before you moved out of Brixton. I know you think this is all beef with editor but I have to say, reading your recent posts, you’ve gone down a rabbit hole and I’m sad about that. You used to be a nice guy. Your selfishness means I could never be friends with you now. Pretty gutted cos you used to be a good guy. I hope you have a bit of a think about this and I also hope it doesn’t bite you on the arse. I hope the missus and the little’un are well x


----------



## Badgers (Jul 14, 2021)

cyril_smear said:


> I don’t want to wear a mask simply because in the middle of summer it’s too much. No other reason.


Melt


----------



## bimble (Jul 14, 2021)

The middle of summer lol. It’s been pissing down since October & its not even warm.


----------



## cyril_smear (Jul 14, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> It's not an analogy and it's bollocks


You are absolute snob! And that is reflected in nearly every post you make.

I occasionally cross paths in threads with you on urban and sometimes try to be pleasant,and occasionally placate you, but you’re just a mean and  bitter little person🤷‍♂️

Your life seems to revolve around the internet(I’m not much better) but you try give the impression that you have an all encompassing and overarching understanding of society: pacifically of the working class.


----------



## cyril_smear (Jul 14, 2021)

bimble said:


> The middle of summer lol. It’s been pissing down since October & its not even warm.


21 degrees in Armley🤷‍♂️


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 14, 2021)

cyril_smear said:


> You are absolute snob! And that is reflected in nearly every post you make.
> 
> I occasionally cross paths in threads with you on urban and sometimes try to be pleasant,and occasionally placate you, but you’re just a mean and  bitter little person🤷‍♂️
> 
> Your life seems to revolve around the internet(I’m not much better) but you try give the impression that you have an all encompassing and overarching understanding of society: pacifically of the working class.


he went to Sherbourne (leading public school)


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Jul 14, 2021)

cyril_smear said:


> I don’t want to wear a mask simply because in the middle of summer it’s too much. No other reason.


Too much what? Get a grip.


----------



## bimble (Jul 14, 2021)

cyril_smear said:


> 21 degrees in Armley🤷‍♂️


Scorcher


----------



## cyril_smear (Jul 14, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> he went to Sherbourne (leading public school)


I would be surprised if he performed sex acts on pig carcasses to impress his chums, if I’m being honest


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 14, 2021)

cyril_smear said:


> I would be surprised if he performed sex acts on pig carcasses to impress his chums, if I’m being honest


i think it’s almost a certainty.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 14, 2021)

cyril_smear said:


> You are absolute snob! And that is reflected in nearly every post you make.
> 
> I occasionally cross paths in threads with you on urban and sometimes try to be pleasant,and occasionally placate you, but you’re just a mean and  bitter little person🤷‍♂️
> 
> Your life seems to revolve around the internet(I’m not much better) but you try give the impression that you have an all encompassing and overarching understanding of society: pacifically of the working class.


i'm not the one using words i don't understand - like analogy, for example - or saying how i know what you're really like.

it is tho fair to say my life revolves around the internet being as it is core to my work.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 14, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> he went to Sherbourne (leading public school)


that's hardly the first load of auld shite you've posted up


----------



## RainbowTown (Jul 14, 2021)

I'll just use plain old common sense and wear one where and when I think appropriate. I do think though that come July 19th there will be a sizable amount of people who will totally discard wearing them without hesitation,  and if approached will just say they're exempt (though this is unlikely anyway, as few people want the hassle or consequences of a potential confrontation).  I see it happening already (and have done for the past several weeks to be honest), in shops, transport and the like.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 14, 2021)

cyril_smear said:


> I would be surprised if he performed sex acts on pig carcasses to impress his chums, if I’m being honest


that's kind of you to say so. but i don't think it's what you mean.


----------



## cyril_smear (Jul 14, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> it is tho fair to say my life revolves around the internet being as it is core to my work.


So it is a fare analogy?


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 14, 2021)

RainbowTown said:


> I'll just use plain old common sense and wear one where and when I think appropriate. I do think though that come July 19th there will be a sizable amount of people who will totally discard wearing them without hesitation,  and if approached will just say they're exempt (though this is unlikely anyway, as few people want the hassle or consequences of a potential confrontation).  I see it happening already (and have done for the past several weeks to be honest), in shops, transport and the like.


most people who come into my place of work without a mask will readily and politely put one of our cheapo ugly masks if asked politely. it’s just the mouthy minority who kick off about it. another small minority say they are exempt. I don’t believe a few of them, but cannot challenge them, cos you never know what invisible disability they might have so best err on the side of caution


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 14, 2021)

cyril_smear said:


> So it is a fare analogy?


i think you need to find out what analogy means. you mean description. an analogy is not a description.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 14, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> that's hardly the first load of auld shite you've posted up


sorry, was it Rugby then or the other place?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 14, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> sorry, was it Rugby then or the other place?


apology accepted


----------



## cyril_smear (Jul 14, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> i think you need to find out what analogy means. you mean description. an analogy is not a description.


But you don’t deny your deluded feeling of omnipotency regarding all things societal? I say this not because I hate you, I say it because I think you’re a cock.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 14, 2021)

cyril_smear said:


> But you don’t deny your deluded feeling of omnipotency regarding all things societal? I say this not because I hate you, I say it because I think you’re a cock.


i don't have a feeling of omnipotence deluded or otherwise.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Jul 14, 2021)

Elpenor said:


> If you were no longer compelled to wear a seat belt in a car, would you still wear one?





cyril_smear said:


> Definitely



That'ssurprising, considering you have admitted on here to driving without insurance.


----------



## cyril_smear (Jul 14, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> i don't have a feeling of omnipotence deluded or otherwise.


A deluded person would say that🤷‍♂️


----------



## Dystopiary (Jul 14, 2021)

cyril_smear said:


> I don’t want to wear a mask simply because in the middle of summer it’s too much. No other reason.


Do you not care about people for whom catching covid would be a death sentence?


----------



## cyril_smear (Jul 14, 2021)

cupid_stunt said:


> That's hardly surprising, considering you have admitted on here to driving without insurance, twats will be twats.


I said I would wear one. Always have, especially when driving with no licences.... that’s just begging to get pulled over.


----------



## cyril_smear (Jul 14, 2021)

Dystopiary said:


> Do you not care about people for whom catching covid would be a death sentence?


They’ve all had their jabs🤷‍♂️


----------



## cupid_stunt (Jul 14, 2021)

cyril_smear said:


> I said I would wear one. Always have, especially when driving with no licences.... that’s just begging to get pulled over.



Yeah, I edited my post as you were quoting it, but you are still a fucking twat.


----------



## Dystopiary (Jul 14, 2021)

cyril_smear said:


> They’ve all had their jabs🤷‍♂️


That doesn't mean they can't catch it. Less likely, but they still can. 
Plus people can get really ill, die even, even if they were previously not considered vulnerable.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 14, 2021)

cyril_smear said:


> A deluded person would say that🤷‍♂️


i have no feeling of omnipotence. no one has much control of their own lives. we apply for jobs but the retention of our labour is in the hands of capricious forces well beyond our control. disease can strike us down at any time, and having a national health service is at times like this a precarious safety net. i am under no delusions about my omnipotence - or rather the lack of it.


----------



## bimble (Jul 14, 2021)

Dystopiary said:


> That doesn't mean they can't catch it. Less likely, but they still can.
> Plus people can get really ill, die even, even if they were previously not considered vulnerable.


At this point ignorance like his is entirely a choice, quite an achievement even, so whatever, answer is no he doesn’t care all he cares about is not risking feeling a tiny bit sweaty,


----------



## StoneRoad (Jul 14, 2021)

Looking at the beeb's coverage ...

A number (5 so far) of England's "Metro" Mayors are saying that in areas they control, like Manchester's Trams and West Yorkshire's bus stations, masks will remain mandatory.

Good !

I'm wondering how many shops etc will do the same, I think I'm right in saying Waterstones have already said they are expecting masks to be worn.


----------



## mentalchik (Jul 14, 2021)

cyril_smear said:


> What you gonna do if they refuse? Phone the police?
> 
> Seeing as it’s no longer law to wear masks you’d probably look a wally.
> 
> Edit: nobody is wearing masks in shops, public transport already and haven’t been for some time.... including the staff 🤷‍♂️


Wrong


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 14, 2021)

bimble said:


> At this point ignorance like his is entirely a choice, quite an achievement even, so whatever, answer is no he doesn’t care all he cares about is not risking feeling a tiny bit sweaty,


it's a great achievement when so many posters have said so much about the risks which still exist for vaccinated people and about the benefit of masks across a host of threads - you've got to be wilfully looking the other way


----------



## Dystopiary (Jul 14, 2021)

StoneRoad said:


> Looking at the beeb's coverage ...
> 
> A number (5 so far) of England's "Metro" Mayors are saying that in areas they control, like Manchester's Trams and West Yorkshire's bus stations, masks will remain mandatory.
> 
> ...


I really feel sorry for the underpaid people who are going to be the ones enforcing this. They've already been getting reams of abuse.


----------



## Raheem (Jul 14, 2021)

I got an email from the leisure centre trust in the neighbouring LAA yesterday, and they are basically removing all restrictions in one go. A bit surprising.


----------



## cyril_smear (Jul 14, 2021)

cupid_stunt said:


> Yeah, I edited my post as you were quoting it, but you are still a fucking twat.


It’s true.


----------



## mentalchik (Jul 14, 2021)

cyril_smear said:


> I don’t want to wear a mask simply because in the middle of summer it’s too much. No other reason.


most shops, like the one i work in are actually quite cold inside....you don't have to wear a mask outside


----------



## cyril_smear (Jul 14, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> i have no feeling of omnipotence. no one has much control of their own lives. we apply for jobs but the retention of our labour is in the hands of capricious forces well beyond our control. disease can strike us down at any time, and having a national health service is at times like this a precarious safety net. i am under no delusions about my omnipotence - or rather the lack of it.


Totally ignored my statement.


----------



## cyril_smear (Jul 14, 2021)

mentalchik said:


> Wrong


Wtf? I’m sorry I must live in an alternative universe; saying that... you even been to Armley?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 14, 2021)

cyril_smear said:


> Totally ignored my statement.


i said your statement was a pile of wank.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 14, 2021)

cyril_smear said:


> Wtf? I’m sorry I must live in an alternative universe; saying that... you even been to Armley?


you missed out the magic words 'in armley' when you posted about how everyone's stopped wearing masks. and i doubt it's even true there.


----------



## cyril_smear (Jul 14, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> i said your statement was a pile of wank.


I’ll resort to your level: Just fuck off, boring cunt.


----------



## mentalchik (Jul 14, 2021)

Dystopiary said:


> I really feel sorry for the underpaid people who are going to be the ones enforcing this. They've already been getting reams of abuse.


but we don't actually enforce it as such....if someone says they are exempt than that's the end of it...as i already said if someone was detirmined to not wear a mask then we mostly just ignore them...we have had violent and aggressive incidents revolving around this and at the end of the day us staff are not the police.....not looking forwards to next week as i suspect we will have a reversal situation where people start complaining about others NOT wearing masks.....we can't win


----------



## cyril_smear (Jul 14, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> you missed out the magic words 'in armley' when you posted about how everyone's stopped wearing masks. and i doubt it's even true there.


You are not a man of the people you are a deluded cunt.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 14, 2021)

cyril_smear said:


> You are not a man of the people you are a deluded cunt.


i never said i was a man of the people. and it's you who are deluded with your everyone's given up wearing masks nonsense.


----------



## mentalchik (Jul 14, 2021)

cyril_smear said:


> Wtf? I’m sorry I must live in an alternative universe; saying that... you even been to Armley?


You didn't specify Armley though, did you ?


----------



## mentalchik (Jul 14, 2021)

Having not been on here for ages i'd forgotten the joy of an U75 tiff....


(waves at U75ers)


----------



## bimble (Jul 14, 2021)

This is the worst fight ever I can’t even pick a side they’re both crap.


----------



## mentalchik (Jul 14, 2021)

mentalchik said:


> Having not been on here for ages i'd forgotten the joy of an U75 tiff....
> 
> 
> (waves at U75ers)


fucking hell.....more than 20 years


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 14, 2021)

bimble said:


> This is the worst fight ever I can’t even pick a side they’re both crap.


Pick smear's, he needs the support poor lad


----------



## colacubes (Jul 14, 2021)

cyril_smear said:


> They’ve all had their jabs🤷‍♂️


My Mum is one of over 10,000 people in care homes who’ve only had 1 jab. And we’re about to unleash a 4th wave. It could kill her. So that’s actual bollocks. I mean if you want to be a selfish cunt that’s fine but own it.


----------



## RainbowTown (Jul 14, 2021)

Dystopiary said:


> I really feel sorry for the underpaid people who are going to be the ones enforcing this. They've already been getting reams of abuse.



Exactly. Lots of these workers are barely earning a liveable wage and shouldn't have to put up with some cretin giving them hassle or grief.  This is why I can't blame some of them for not wanting to confront someone (especially in shops or hospitality and the like). Because, in all honesty, if I was in their position, I would probably do the same.


----------



## Dystopiary (Jul 14, 2021)

Not even the 19th yet. ☹️

 

eta: See planetgeli's post below.


----------



## Dystopiary (Jul 14, 2021)

RainbowTown said:


> Exactly. Lots of these workers are barely earning a liveable wage and shouldn't have to put up with some cretin giving them hassle or grief.  This is why I can't blame some of them for not wanting to confront someone (especially in shops or hospitality and the like). Because, in all honesty, if I was in their position, I would probably do the same.


mentalchik responded to this but I can't link posts.


----------



## Chilli.s (Jul 14, 2021)

Mr Retro said:


> This is Khan playing politics and trying to placate the unions. I’ll no longer be wearing a mask anywhere from next Monday


don't get anywhere near me


----------



## existentialist (Jul 14, 2021)

cyril_smear said:


> I’ll resort to your level: Just fuck off, boring cunt.


He's losing it...


----------



## cupid_stunt (Jul 14, 2021)

colacubes said:


> My Mum is one of over 10,000 people in care homes who’ve only had 1 jab. And we’re about to unleash a 4th wave. It could kill her. So that’s actual bollocks. I mean if you want to be a selfish cunt that’s fine but own it.



Why has she only had 1 jab?


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 14, 2021)

RainbowTown said:


> Exactly. Lots of these workers are barely earning a liveable wage and shouldn't have to put up with some cretin giving them hassle or grief.  This is why I can't blame some of them for not wanting to confront someone (especially in shops or hospitality and the like). Because, in all honesty, if I was in their position, I would probably do the same.


I'm in the opposite position in that I'd be happy to confront the bellends and have a few choice words, but apparently that's not good customer service.


----------



## colacubes (Jul 14, 2021)

cupid_stunt said:


> Why has she only had 1 jab?


Combination of being very ill and the hospital she was in on and off for 6 months not giving vaccines. A sizeable NHS hospital. It’s a proper under the radar scandal brewing which I’ve written to her MP about. She got her 1st dose within a week of going into residential care. I am fucking terrified about picking it up and passing it on to her.


----------



## mentalchik (Jul 14, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> I'm in the opposite position in that I'd be happy to confront the bellends and have a few choice words, but apparently that's not good customer service.


We have confronted some...usually the very obnoxious ones but company policy is that we should not


----------



## existentialist (Jul 14, 2021)

Dystopiary said:


> Not even the 19th yet. ☹️



I hope very much that the tweeter got in touch with Waitrose, as well as tagging them. That's awful


----------



## pseudonarcissus (Jul 14, 2021)

I'm terrified about not wearing a mask anymore. I have got so used to mouthing obscenities at people, I just know I'm going to get caught out when the pandemic is over.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 14, 2021)

mentalchik said:


> We have confronted some...usually the very obnoxious ones but company policy is that we should not


aye, but i find it hard not to say owt. My default reaction to rudeness is to be rude back and it gets me telt 
the last time was when i tried to help out a customer in a queue who just wanted to pick up some documents. I went to get them so he didn’t have to queue and when i came back he was slagging off my colleague for ‘telling me what to do’, so my reflex reaction was to hold back giving him his documents. i didn’t want to give them to him if he was being rude and aggressive to my colleagues. but then he kicked off at me and management got involved and i got a carpeting. i hate having to be polite to bellends and privately never will.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 14, 2021)

existentialist said:


> I hope very much that the tweeter got in touch with Waitrose, as well as tagging them. That's awful


they did - the thread continues if you click on the link


----------



## Espresso (Jul 14, 2021)

I see that the hospitality industry is struggling to fill vacancies.
I get that some of their staff in before times were people from foreign lands who have gone home because Brexit. Or are people who are now not be available because they've retrained in cyber (  ) but I also imagine a lot of people who might previously have worked in bars and restaurants would rather not be faced with arsey drunk people shouting the odds about masks and social distancing and calling other people sheeple for minimum wage.

Edit to sort out saddo coding


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 14, 2021)

Espresso said:


> I see that the hospitality industry is struggling to fill vacancies.
> I get that some of their staff in before times were people from foreign lands who have gone home because Brexit. Or are people who are now not be available because they've retrained in cyber facepalm but I also imagine a lot of people who might previously have worked in bars and restaurants would rather not be faced with arsey drunk people shouting the odds about masks and social distancing and calling other people sheeple for minimum wage.


and also fed up with how they’ve been treated by their employers








						We quit! The Great Resignation era has begun – at a boiling hot branch of Burger King
					

A mass walkout at the fast food outlet in Nebraska reflects a broad social shift. Since the pandemic, employees have been quitting or switching jobs in droves




					www.google.co.uk


----------



## cyril_smear (Jul 14, 2021)

mentalchik said:


> You didn't specify Armley did you



I have friend and family all over Leeds, but I live in Armley, so Armley was the easiest and most pertinent example for me personally.

All over Leeds, ime, have given up on masks, and nobody is challemging them.

In my opinion/experience the majority of people are past it now... and I quote one “30 plus normal looking bloke” on the bus the other day(i had my mask on for the record) “I don’t know why you’re wearing that, it’s a loads bollocks”


Orang Utan said:


> I'm in the opposite position in that I'd be happy to confront the bellends and have a few choice words, but apparently that's not good customer service.


nope, and you’ll probably ended up on Facebook, then YouTube, and then in the Sun because of smart phone cameras.


----------



## planetgeli (Jul 14, 2021)

Dystopiary said:


> Not even the 19th yet. ☹️






existentialist said:


> I hope very much that the tweeter got in touch with Waitrose, as well as tagging them. That's awful



Yeah but context. I read their twitter.

The driver 'shouted' at them because they were at an upstairs window. So shouted to them more like. They have also admitted (this is in later tweets) the driver did not mean to 
scare them.

Waitrose have said it is policy. The driver has to identify the customer. I'm not defending that, but that's the context.

The person also seems to live their whole life on twitter. They won't or can't leave the house. And they seem in massive fear of Covid. This leads them to not wanting to take a face mask off, effectively outdoors, to a person maybe a minimum of 12 feet away. And writing shouty tweets about it.

I reckon there's better examples of corporate idiocy to pick on. And I fucking hate Waitrose.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Jul 14, 2021)

cyril_smear said:


> I have friend and family all over Leeds, but I live in Armley, so Armley was the easiest and most pertinent example for me personally.
> 
> All over Leeds, ime, have given up on masks, and nobody is challemging them.



Probably goes some way in explaining why Leeds have some of the highest case numbers in the UK.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 14, 2021)

cupid_stunt said:


> Probably goes some way in explaining why Leeds have some of the highest case numbers in the UK.


in my home area and work area especially 
but having said that - I still see a lot of mask wearing wherever i go.


----------



## cyril_smear (Jul 14, 2021)

cupid_stunt said:


> Probably goes some way in explaining why Leeds have some of the highest case numbers in the UK.


Touché


----------



## cyril_smear (Jul 14, 2021)

cupid_stunt said:


> Probably goes some way in explaining why Leeds have some of the highest case numbers in the UK.


I suppose I could put my phone in my shirt pocket tomorrow and post the video just how many tines I’m asked put a mask on?


----------



## existentialist (Jul 14, 2021)

cyril_smear said:


> I suppose I could put my phone in my shirt pocket tomorrow and post the video just how many tines I’m asked put a mask on?


Don't bother.


----------



## editor (Jul 14, 2021)

colacubes said:


> My Mum is one of over 10,000 people in care homes who’ve only had 1 jab. And we’re about to unleash a 4th wave. It could kill her. So that’s actual bollocks. I mean if you want to be a selfish cunt that’s fine but own it.


...and I'm living, breathing (and coughing) proof that you can have two jabs and still get the fucking virus.


----------



## bimble (Jul 14, 2021)

cyril_smear said:


> I suppose I could put my phone in my shirt pocket tomorrow and post the video just how many tines I’m asked put a mask on?


Do you only ever do a thing if other people tell you to do it?  Sounds like a shit life.


----------



## MickiQ (Jul 14, 2021)

I've just been for my state sanctioned exercise and called in the corner shop on the way home. All but one of  the staff and about half the customers weren't wearing masks (despite the sign on the door) This is in a small town of a few thousand people where compliance has been generally good during the lockdowns.


----------



## cyril_smear (Jul 14, 2021)

Edit: quoted the wrong person.


----------



## cyril_smear (Jul 14, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> I've just been for my state sanctioned exercise and called in the corner shop on the way home. All but one of  the staff and about half the customers weren't wearing masks (despite the sign on the door) This is in a small town of a few thousand people where compliance has been generally good during the lockdowns.


No ya lying!


----------



## existentialist (Jul 14, 2021)

I've no idea what the fuck you're quoting, but it's nothing I wrote. Sort it out, please.


----------



## Johnny Doe (Jul 14, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> I've just been for my state sanctioned exercise and called in the corner shop on the way home. All but one of  the staff and about half the customers weren't wearing masks (despite the sign on the door) This is in a small town of a few thousand people where compliance has been generally good during the lockdowns.


Yeah, I've seen a real change in attitude. Very few people in the pub I popped into for half an hour on Sunday were wearing masks, including the staff. They were serving people at the bar


----------



## MickiQ (Jul 14, 2021)

cyril_smear said:


> No ya lying!


That is a statement that is really too stupid to actually deserve a response but in keeping with my well established pattern of banging my head against a wall until I pass out, which particular statement do you believe to be untrue?
That I went out for a walk? That I called in the corner shop? That I bought eggs, milk and bread? That all the staff bar the woman behind the counter were not wearing masks? That around half the customers weren't wearing masks (grant you I didn't do a head count so I could be wrong 10-20% either way)?


----------



## cyril_smear (Jul 14, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> That is a statement that is really too stupid to actually deserve a response but in keeping with my well established pattern of banging my head against a wall until I pass out, which particular statement do you believe to be untrue?
> That I went out for a walk? That I called in the corner shop? That I bought eggs, milk and bread? That all the staff bar the woman behind the counter were not wearing masks? That around half the customers weren't wearing masks (grant you I didn't do a head count so I could be wrong 10-20% either way)?


----------



## cyril_smear (Jul 14, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> That is a statement that is really too stupid to actually deserve a response but in keeping with my well established pattern of banging my head against a wall until I pass out, which particular statement do you believe to be untrue?
> That I went out for a walk? That I called in the corner shop? That I bought eggs, milk and bread? That all the staff bar the woman behind the counter were not wearing masks? That around half the customers weren't wearing masks (grant you I didn't do a head count so I could be wrong 10-20% either way)?


Sorry, ny point was a sarcastic one, I said exactly the same as you and was ripped to shreds, inferred that I was lying etc.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 14, 2021)

cyril_smear said:


> Sorry, ny point was a sarcastic one, I said exactly the same as you and was ripped to shreds, inferred that I was lying etc.


implied


----------



## killer b (Jul 14, 2021)

cyril_smear said:


> Sorry, ny point was a sarcastic one, I said exactly the same as you and was ripped to shreds, inferred that I was lying etc.


You didn't say exactly the same thing at all you bellend. You claimed everyone was already dropping mask wearing, before being called on it and eventually saying you were talking about a specific part of Leeds. How the fuck any of us were to know this is beyond me.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 14, 2021)

Harry Smiles said:


> Yeah, I've seen a real change in attitude. Very few people in the pub I popped into for half an hour on Sunday were wearing masks, including the staff. They were serving people at the bar


Wonder how it'll go when the fucking virus is being spread at hitherto unprecedented rates


----------



## Johnny Doe (Jul 14, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Wonder how it'll go when the fucking virus is being spread at hitherto unprecedented rates


Yeah, I put my on to get to the table, but was very conscious no-one else was.


----------



## cyril_smear (Jul 14, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> implied


Pedantry alive and well I see.... and I expect that fro certain posters, but not you.

I thought you were better than that?


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Jul 14, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> That is a statement that is really too stupid to actually deserve a response but in keeping with my well established pattern of banging my head against a wall until I pass out, which particular statement do you believe to be untrue?
> That I went out for a walk? That I called in the corner shop? That I bought eggs, milk and bread? That all the staff bar the woman behind the counter were not wearing masks? That around half the customers weren't wearing masks (grant you I didn't do a head count so I could be wrong 10-20% either way)?


I reckon you bought eggs, milk, bread and marmite. So you didn't lie except by omitting the divisive yeast extract. I could be wrong here, but I think my new right to decide what is valid gives me the ability to override your so-called recollection of events. I'm just exercising my rights, probably under Magna Carta if I could ever be bothered to read it.


----------



## MickiQ (Jul 14, 2021)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> I reckon you bought eggs, milk, bread and marmite. So you didn't lie except by omitting the divisive yeast extract. I could be wrong here, but I think my new right to decide what is valid gives me the ability to override your so-called recollection of events. I'm just exercising my rights, probably under Magna Carta if I could ever be bothered to read it.


No marmite has been purchased in the Q household since 2016 when Middle Q moved out to live with her boyfriend who presumably also likes it or possibly has no taste buds.
After she left we called in the hazardous chemicals unit to make sure it was gone and the house was clear.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 15, 2021)

cyril_smear said:


> Pedantry alive and well I see.... and I expect that fro certain posters, but not you.
> 
> I thought you were better than that?


it's important to say what you mean


----------



## existentialist (Jul 15, 2021)

cyril_smear said:


> Pedantry alive and well I see.... and I expect that fro certain posters, but not you.
> 
> I thought you were better than that?


What you're calling "pedantry", going by your "everyone's not wearing masks...oh, just here in Leeds" comment, is more akin to "sticking to the facts".


----------



## cyril_smear (Jul 15, 2021)

edit: sorry if you saw that, I thought it was a different poster I was replying to.


----------



## cyril_smear (Jul 15, 2021)

existentialist said:


> What you're calling "pedantry", going by your "everyone's not wearing masks...oh, just here in Leeds" comment, is more akin to "sticking to the facts".


I should have been more clear, but there’s anecdotal evidence a few posts up that suggests it’s not just Leeds, and of course all the stuff we’ve seen with the England team bollocks, Chris Whitty having people pulling him from pillar to post.... all not wearing masks in close proximity, so I think it’s fair to extrapolate using my own observations 🤷‍♂️


----------



## gentlegreen (Jul 15, 2021)

I'm reasonably confident about my area - I saw masks very early here  - though I may have to keep an eye on the shops to see if it's better at some times than others and whether Aldi is better than Tesco ... I don't hold out much hope for the smaller shops I go to ...
Thankfully I don't go to pubs or cafes or need to catch the bus...


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 15, 2021)

existentialist said:


> What you're calling "pedantry", going by your "everyone's not wearing masks...oh, just here in Leeds" comment, is more akin to "sticking to the facts".


not even facts


----------



## two sheds (Jul 15, 2021)

odd facts


----------



## cyril_smear (Jul 15, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> not even facts


Well, yes, they are facts because I’ve seen it. Unless you are suggesting I’m telling lies?


----------



## Raheem (Jul 15, 2021)

cyril_smear said:


> Well, yes, they are facts because I’ve seen it. Unless you are suggesting I’m telling lies?


It could also be that you're just not a very good judge of what's real.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 15, 2021)

cyril_smear said:


> Well, yes, they are facts because I’ve seen it. Unless you are suggesting I’m telling lies?


you are telling lies.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 15, 2021)

Raheem said:


> It could also be that you're just not a very good judge of what's real.


it shows a good spirit to offer him the option of pleading diminished responsibility


----------



## cyril_smear (Jul 15, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> you are telling lies.


“Just fuck off” is going to be my standard response to you from now on.

You’re a snob.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 15, 2021)

cyril_smear said:


> Well, yes, they are facts because I’ve seen it. Unless you are suggesting I’m telling lies?


i’m suggesting that you don’t speak for all of Leeds


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 15, 2021)

cyril_smear said:


> “Just fuck off” is going to be my standard response to you from now on.
> 
> You’re a snob.


'just fuck off' would be an improvement on the shower of shit you've posted thus far.

you say i'm a snob without showing anywhere where i've been snobbish. i can very easily point to a load of untruths you've posted.


----------



## cyril_smear (Jul 15, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> you say i'm a snob without showing anywhere where i've been snobbish.


Snobbery alive and well


----------



## StoneRoad (Jul 15, 2021)

My local patch currently (5-day data lag) has a stupidly high case rate already.
Judging by what happened in both previous waves and it's Delta; so, despite a very high vaccination level already [over 90% first dose], we are going to have a stupendous peak within a couple of weeks, because of the footie.
But, also going by previous behaviour and what I've seen in the past few days - people are still taking precautions ie masks in shops or in close proximity on narrow pavements, standing chatting is done at about 1.5m or more when space allows ... the signs of the increase in cases has merely re-enforced compliance with the " hands : face : space " mantra.
However, I think the peak was inevitable given the football and drinking. It may have started in the kids, but work, pubs and the EuroFootie certainly spread it about. I kept well away - but driving past a couple of the pubs / clubs I could see that the booze meant much less masking and the footie caused much shouting etc.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 15, 2021)

cyril_smear said:


> Snobbery alive and well


so no actual examples then just a link to the forum list


----------



## Badgers (Jul 15, 2021)

cyril_smear said:


> Well, yes, they are facts because I’ve seen it. Unless you are suggesting I’m telling lies?


Liar


----------



## kalidarkone (Jul 15, 2021)

I had a charity come to ma's house to get furniture yesterday, nice chaps but one not wearing a mask....I was masked up. I wouldn't let the chap without the mask in the house. He didn't have one   so I gave him one. Ffs. They are in and out of people's houses all day. I want to complain but seems pointless if restrictions are being dropped next week.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 15, 2021)

Yay, my local cinema, the Hyde Park Picture House, is continuing with the current measures for its peripatetic screenings, so I can still go to the flicks safely. Still to hear from my other regular cinema, Vue, though


----------



## Voley (Jul 15, 2021)

My work are letting people make their own minds up on face coverings from Monday. Luckily my new job is going to be predominantly working from home but I'd be very worried right now if I had to go back in to the office full time.


----------



## Voley (Jul 15, 2021)

Dp.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 15, 2021)

Voley said:


> My work are letting people make their own minds up on face coverings from Monday. Luckily my new job is going to be predominantly working from home but I'd be very worried right now if I had to go back in to the office full time.


my work still hasn’t communicated to us just what the new regulations will be and the last working day before it is tomorrow ffs
they are still consulting with unions though, so at least there’s that


----------



## Voley (Jul 15, 2021)

Can't help think this is going to be anything other than a disaster Orang Utan. I'm really quite anxious about the coming weeks.


----------



## existentialist (Jul 15, 2021)

Voley said:


> Can't help think this is going to be anything other than a disaster Orang Utan. I'm really quite anxious about the coming weeks.


I'm anxious about the coming weeks, and I'm not even in England. I am concerned that, here in Wales, we're going to see an influx of bumptious English types keen to demonstrate that they're not interested in the Welsh regulations, and who will go maskless at every opportunity. I might be wrong - after all, a substantial proportion of people appear to feel that the Government's policy is wrong, but it doesn't take _that_ many people to spread infection. I think I'll be avoiding busy supermarkets for a while to come, or at least only going when it is likely to be quiet.


----------



## elbows (Jul 15, 2021)

If you dont want to catch it then now is a really good time for people to do their own personal firebreaker for a bit, minimise contacts etc.

Depending on where you live, its already been weeks since I would first have found it appropriate to make this claim.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 15, 2021)

Voley said:


> Can't help think this is going to be anything other than a disaster Orang Utan. I'm really quite anxious about the coming weeks.


me too


----------



## cyril_smear (Jul 15, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> so no actual examples then just a link to the forum list


Just fuck off


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 15, 2021)

cyril_smear said:


> Just fuck off


so i did a search (pickman's snob) to find out how frequently i've been accused of being a snob or snobbish. and blow me down if you're not the only person in 18 years to make that accusation. yet despite all my posts you can't show me a single incident to back up your claim. then again you're a proven liar.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 15, 2021)

Pickman’s Model is a snob


----------



## cyril_smear (Jul 15, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> so i did a search (pickman's snob) to find out how frequently i've been accused of being a snob or snobbish. and blow me down if you're not the only person in 18 years to make that accusation. yet despite all my posts you can't show me a single incident to back up your claim. then again you're a proven liar.


Just fuck off.


----------



## cyril_smear (Jul 15, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> Pickman’s Model is a knob


Fify


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 15, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> Pickman’s Model is a snob


smear does it better.


----------



## Badgers (Jul 15, 2021)

Pickman’s Model is a snob


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 15, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Pickman’s Model is a snob


et tu badgers?


----------



## Numbers (Jul 15, 2021)

Pickman's model is a snob
doo daa
doo daa
Pickman's model is a snob


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 15, 2021)

Numbers said:


> Pickman's model is a snob
> doo daa
> doo daa
> Pickman's model is a snob


yeh there's a whole usually unsung verse of campdown races about it


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 15, 2021)

Numbers said:


> Pickman's model is a snob
> doo daa
> doo daa
> Pickman's model is a snob


and as a snob he patronised, ee aye ee aye oh


----------



## Elpenor (Jul 15, 2021)

Pickman’s snob is a model (and he’s looking good)


----------



## 8ball (Jul 15, 2021)

Started as a ‘maybe’ on this thread.  Would have loved to ditch the mask but those numbers were looking iffy…

At this point, though, going to have to shift to a ‘yes’.  Case rates round these parts have gone mental.


----------



## elbows (Jul 15, 2021)




----------



## cyril_smear (Jul 15, 2021)

Soz to rake up old graves, or whatever the saying is, but I’ve been round Leeds today I.e train, train station, trinity, shopping... maybe 80% plus of people NOT wearing masks(including INSIDE shops). And probably half of those that were were just wearing them loosely over their mouths, but not noses.

Nobody wants to do it any more🤷‍♂️ And if it’s happening in Leeds, I’ll repeat myself, you could deduce that it’s happening in other towns and cities.


----------



## LDC (Jul 15, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> my work still hasn’t communicated to us just what the new regulations will be and the last working day before it is tomorrow ffs
> they are still consulting with unions though, so at least there’s that



I literally just chatted to a friend who works for Leeds council as some line manager and they've been told from that 19th as the government guidance says they're all back in the office, fully open to the public, no social distancing, but they can wear a mask if they want.

It's fucking out of order, totally irresponsible. Cases are going to go through the roof.


----------



## cyril_smear (Jul 15, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> I literally just chatted to a friend who works for Leeds council as some line manager and they've been told back in the office, fully open to the public, no social distancing, but they can wear a mask if they want because 'that's the government's guidance.'
> 
> It's fucking out of order, totally irresponsible. Cases are going to go through the roof.


They already are going up quickly.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 15, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> I literally just chatted to a friend who works for Leeds council as some line manager and they've been told back in the office, fully open to the public, no social distancing, but they can wear a mask if they want because 'that's the government's guidance.'
> 
> It's fucking out of order, totally irresponsible. Cases are going to go through the roof.


and isn't it shit that I found this out on here


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 15, 2021)

cyril_smear said:


> They already are going up quickly.


imagine what it will be like when selfish twits stop wearing their masks


----------



## Raheem (Jul 15, 2021)

Numbers said:


> Pickman's model is a snob
> doo daa
> doo daa
> Pickman's model is a snob


New national anthem for England thread ----->


----------



## Raheem (Jul 15, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> I literally just chatted to a friend who works for Leeds council as some line manager and they've been told back in the office, fully open to the public, no social distancing, but they can wear a mask if they want because 'that's the government's guidance.'
> 
> It's fucking out of order, totally irresponsible. Cases are going to go through the roof.


Think there is pressure on a lot of the public sector to "lead by example". 

Someone I know was telling me today that they are supposed to be in one day a week from Victory Day. But, at the same time, they're constantly shutting down floors of her building every time a member of staff tests positive. There's going to be a lot of chaos and then  thinking again going on, probably.


----------



## Badgers (Jul 15, 2021)

Raheem said:


> There's going to be a lot of chaos and then thinking again going on, probably.


Thinking would be a nice change


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 15, 2021)

Raheem said:


> Think there is pressure on a lot of the public sector to "lead by example".
> 
> Someone I know was telling me today that they are supposed to be in one day a week from Victory Day. But, at the same time, they're constantly shutting down floors of her building every time a member of staff tests positive. There's going to be a lot of chaos and then  thinking again going on, probably.


The guidance at work today differs markedly from the guidance given to my manager on tuesday

Fortunately it'll be really quiet at work for the next six weeks till the next lockdown


----------



## existentialist (Jul 15, 2021)

cyril_smear said:


> Soz to rake up old graves, or whatever the saying is, but I’ve been round Leeds today I.e train, train station, trinity, shopping... maybe 80% plus of people NOT wearing masks(including INSIDE shops). And probably half of those that were were just wearing them loosely over their mouths, but not noses.
> 
> Nobody wants to do it any more🤷‍♂️ And if it’s happening in Leeds, I’ll repeat myself, you could deduce that it’s happening in other towns and cities.


"Nobody"


----------



## scifisam (Jul 15, 2021)

cyril_smear said:


> I should have been more clear, but there’s anecdotal evidence a few posts up that suggests it’s not just Leeds, and of course all the stuff we’ve seen with the England team bollocks, Chris Whitty having people pulling him from pillar to post.... all not wearing masks in close proximity, so I think it’s fair to extrapolate using my own observations 🤷‍♂️



Do you mean the England team? Nobody really expects a sports team to wear masks unless they're playing ice hockey, surely? Doesn't exactly tell you anything about other people's behaviour.

I still see almost everyone wearing masks in shops and on the tube here.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 15, 2021)

my experience is completely contrary to cyril_smear but i live and work in different areas than Armley and in town. but i don’t think he’s lying. people see what suits their view. if he’s right though, it can only spell more trouble ahead. even if he’s wrong i foresee a lot of grief.


----------



## cyril_smear (Jul 15, 2021)

scifisam said:


> Do you mean the England team? Nobody really expects a sports team to wear masks unless they're playing ice hockey, surely? Doesn't exactly tell you anything about other people's behaviour.
> 
> I still see almost everyone wearing masks in shops and on the tube here.


Nope, I mean all the cockheads who were running rampant without masks.


----------



## scifisam (Jul 15, 2021)

cyril_smear said:


> Nope, I mean all the cockheads who were running rampant without masks.



Well, apart from being arseholes, they were outside, and there's never been a rule about wearing masks outdoors.


----------



## cyril_smear (Jul 15, 2021)

existentialist said:


> "Nobody"


Lots of people. Fucking hell!


----------



## Helen Back (Jul 16, 2021)

I will be continuing to wear a mask long term and happy to do so.

So what time on the19th does this so-called Freedom Day come into effect? Is it midnight 18th into 19th or 4a.m. on the 19th?


----------



## farmerbarleymow (Jul 16, 2021)

The FFP2 masks arrived the other day - much better than the crappy blue ones.


----------



## mojo pixy (Jul 16, 2021)

Bloke in the supermarket without a mask today, looking stressed. The only uncovered face in the shop. I passed him and consoled him, "Aw, bless you without your mask, you special snowflake!"

He growled fuck off wanker, I laughed and went on my way.


----------



## killer b (Jul 16, 2021)

mojo pixy said:


> looking stressed


they do always look pretty miserable don't they? wonder if it's worth it.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 16, 2021)

killer b said:


> they do always look pretty miserable don't they? wonder if it's worth it.


so do i, mind, but at least i can hide this with my mask


----------



## gentlegreen (Jul 16, 2021)

paul russell999 said:


> I got mine from MediSave. They are a reputable company (I think), that I've ordered from quite a few times, that also happens to be a couple of miles from me, but they only sell online.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks 

Just ordered my first proper masks apart from cheap disposables  - in black - a shame they won't be here for "freedom day" ...

Looks like we're in this for the long haul  - though I'm double-vaxed and clear of the two borderline co-morbidities I may have had 18 months ago - apart from age of course ...

Thankfully it appears Aldi have joined Tesco in keeping distancing and masks as a requirement and I suspect at least one of the two other shops i use will do the same.


----------



## mojo pixy (Jul 16, 2021)

mojo pixy said:


> Bloke in the supermarket without a mask today, looking stressed. The only uncovered face in the shop. I passed him and consoled him, "Aw, bless you without your mask, you special snowflake!"
> 
> He growled fuck off wanker, I laughed and went on my way.


I'm thinking now (always inclined to think afterwards instead of before, I ought to work on that)

I'm sort of regretting that now. I feel all I really achieved was to make an angry bloke angrier, what does he do with that today? It feels as if I fired a shot in some culture war or something, and now I sort of wish I hadn't. Though it was funny, and it made a point.

To paraphrase, how's that going for you - being funny and making points?

Oh well never mind moving on.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 16, 2021)

aye, solidarity fella.

does anyone know if there are non-disposable non-black FFP2 masks available anywhere?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 16, 2021)

mojo pixy said:


> I'm thinking now (always inclined to think afterwards instead of before, I ought to work on that)
> 
> I'm sort of regretting that now. I feel all I really achieved was to make an angry bloke angrier, what does he do with that today? It feels as if I fired a shot in some culture war or something, and now I sort of wish I hadn't. Though it was funny, and it made a point.
> 
> ...


They might have been exempt of course


----------



## gentlegreen (Jul 16, 2021)

I told off a couple of obvious mask-dodgers last year, but have been very relaxed since - especially post-vax - even recently on hospital buses.
I will be protecting myself better from now on and simply giving such people a wide berth - though doubtless sometimes in a slightly exaggerated fashion....


----------



## mojo pixy (Jul 16, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> They might have been exempt of course


I considered that, but this was a strapping builder with tools and muddy boots striding about like .. like that. He may have been though. That's not really why I'm reflecting though. I really didn't think he was, he didn't have a notice on him.

I'm just tired of making an issue of it proactively, I think.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 16, 2021)

mojo pixy said:


> I considered that, but this was a strapping builder with tools and muddy boots striding about like .. like that. He may have been though. That's not really why I'm reflecting though. I really didn't think he was.


No. But I think you're focussed on the wrong thing, the positive being the great majority of people showing discipline


----------



## mojo pixy (Jul 16, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> No. But I think you're focussed on the wrong thing, the positive being the great majority of people showing discipline


I've been quite heartened by recent sights of yes, the vast majority of people being cautious. I wonder how it will go after Monday, only a couple of days to wait and see.

I'm not making any trouble out of it any more. I think it would from now on be wrong to. But if i noticed anyone acting cuntily about someone wearing a face cover, I'd still be inclined to intervene.


----------



## Spymaster (Jul 16, 2021)

mojo pixy said:


> I'm thinking now (always inclined to think afterwards instead of before, I ought to work on that)
> 
> I'm sort of regretting that now. I feel all I really achieved was to make an angry bloke angrier, what does he do with that today? It feels as if I fired a shot in some culture war or something, and now I sort of wish I hadn't. Though it was funny, and it made a point.
> 
> ...



He also may have been medically exempt. 

Even otherwise, setting up a them-and-us situation like that is hardly helpful.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 16, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> They might have been exempt of course





Spymaster said:


> He also may have been medically exempt.
> 
> Even otherwise, setting up a them-and-us situation like that is hardly helpful.


Great minds? Or fools run in the same vein?


----------



## mojo pixy (Jul 16, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> He also may have been medically exempt.


I genuinely didn't think so, and he had nothing on him to say so.



Spymaster said:


> Even otherwise, setting up a them-and-us situation like that is hardly helpful.


lol u OK hun? Just checking this was posted by Spymaster


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 16, 2021)

mojo pixy said:


> I genuinely didn't think so, and he had nothing on him to say so.


Tbh you're likely right he wasn't exempt but afaik there's no actual onus on people who are exempt to wear the exempt lanyard, if they ever had one. And I'd have thought most exempt people are sick of explaining why they haven't got  a mask on


----------



## mojo pixy (Jul 16, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Tbh you're likely right he wasn't exempt but afaik there's no actual onus on people who are exempt to wear the exempt lanyard, if they ever had one. And I'd have thought most exempt people are sick of explaining why they haven't got  a mask on



If so, then he's a victim of my cuntery and while I'm confessing my sin here, his righteousness against future cunts like me has no doubt been reinforced. Balance is retained. The greater good is served  

To be clear though, this to me was clearly and unambiguously a large man swaggering about maskless in a shop, before the rules actually change. It looked to me, as it has a few times before, like some bloke who knew nobody would challenge him. That never sits well with me, so I have throughout the pandemic occasionally used my male privilege to challenge such lumps. Because honestly, someone has to.

Not any more though, not proactively anyway.

(excuse the epic edits, I'm on a phone and I haven't got my glasses)


----------



## scifisam (Jul 16, 2021)

mojo pixy said:


> I genuinely didn't think so, and he had nothing on him to say so.
> 
> 
> lol u OK hun? Just checking this was posted by Spymaster


You don't have to carry something visible on you to say you're exempt. Wearing a badge that says "I'm disabled" has its own risks.


----------



## mojo pixy (Jul 16, 2021)

scifisam said:


> You don't have to carry something visible on you to say you're exempt. Wearing a badge that says "I'm disabled" has its own risks.


I can only refer you to my post above yours.

I have to add that I work with a lot of disabled people, and I believe can tell the difference between someone with an invisible disability, and a selfish prick who doesn't care.

In case I'm wrong, consider this all my confession. Amen.


----------



## Supine (Jul 16, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> aye, solidarity fella.
> 
> does anyone know if there are non-disposable non-black FFP2 masks available anywhere?



none will say non disposable but they can be reused for ages if you accept any very small risk of contamination.

ive been using my current one all week.


----------



## scifisam (Jul 16, 2021)

mojo pixy said:


> I can only refer you to my post above yours.
> 
> I have to add that I work with a lot of disabled people, and I believe can tell the difference between someone with an invisible disability, and a selfish prick who doesn't care.
> 
> In case I'm wrong, consider this all my confession. Amen.



You can't see all invisible disabilities! That's kinda part of the definition 😁 This bloke probably was just an arsehole but it's not on to expect that all disabled people should wear a label for everyone to see, and if they don't then they're fair game.


----------



## souljacker (Jul 16, 2021)

I've been on tubes and trains lots again this week and my main observations are a) it's getting loads busier and b) lots more people aren't wearing a mask or are wearing them under their chin. Still probably only around 1 in 10 though.


----------



## mojo pixy (Jul 16, 2021)

scifisam said:


> You can't see all invisible disabilities! That's kinda part of the definition 😁 This bloke probably was just an arsehole but it's not on to expect that all disabled people should wear a label for everyone to see, and if they don't then they're fair game.


Of course not, but just because someone considers their disability 'invisible', doesn't mean it is, or that it can't be noticed in other ways than by sight. I wouldn't expect anyone to signpost any disability, but a lack of signposting doesn't necessarily mean someone can't perceive someone else for themselves.

Then again, a macho idiot anti-masker tends to stick out like a sore thumb.


----------



## elbows (Jul 16, 2021)

ONS survey says:



> Two-thirds (64%) of adults in Great Britain said they still plan to cover their faces in shops, following the lifting of most coronavirus legal restrictions in England from 19 July 2021.
> 
> The same percentage (64%) plan to wear masks on public transport, while 60% plan to avoid crowded places.







__





						Two-thirds of adults still plan to wear masks in shops and on public transport - Office for National Statistics
					

Limits on social contact and many other coronavirus (COVID-19) restrictions will be eased in England and Scotland from 19 July 2021 and in Wales from 7 August.  What are people looking forward to, and which coronavirus restrictions will they continue to follow?



					www.ons.gov.uk


----------



## scifisam (Jul 16, 2021)

mojo pixy said:


> Of course not, but just because someone considers their disability 'invisible', doesn't mean it is, or that it can't be noticed in other ways than by sight. I wouldn't expect anyone to signpost any disability, but a lack of signposting doesn't necessarily mean someone can't perceive someone else for themselves.
> 
> Then again, a macho idiot anti-masker tends to stick out like a sore thumb.



I really don't think you're understanding the word invisible, you know.


----------



## mojo pixy (Jul 16, 2021)

scifisam said:


> I really don't think you're understanding the word invisible, you know.


I am, but what one person considers invisible, someone else may be able to see, or at least pick up on in some way.


----------



## scifisam (Jul 16, 2021)

mojo pixy said:


> I am, but what one person considers invisible, someone else may be able to see, or at least pick up on in some way.



Or they might be describing their own disability accurately.


----------



## xenon (Jul 16, 2021)

Oh come on is pretty sure this guy wasn’t exempt. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with what Mojo did.

I mean it could’ve escalated sure but if you’re going to act a certain way in public someone is going to tell you at some point down the line.


----------



## scifisam (Jul 16, 2021)

xenon said:


> Oh come on is pretty sure this guy wasn’t exempt. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with what Mojo did.
> 
> I mean it could’ve escalated sure but if you’re going to act a certain way in public someone is going to tell you at some point down the line.



Am I writing in code or something? 

I said:

This bloke probably was just an arsehole *but it's not on to expect that all disabled people should wear a label for everyone to see, and if they don't then they're fair game.*


----------



## Steel Icarus (Jul 16, 2021)

Supermarket yesterday & today, one yesterday out of about twenty customers and two out if perhaps thirty today. Plenty of people masked up in the town centre between shops, too.


----------



## mojo pixy (Jul 16, 2021)

scifisam said:


> Or they might be describing their own disability accurately.


They may well be, but how someone describes themselves is not always exactly what someone else might perceive in them. We don't get to tell other people what to notice or pick up on. What's important is that we pay attention to each other and try to behave with empathy.

Today I didn't,  and that was a conscious choice on my part because I was annoyed at seeing a large, bolshy man flouting rules that are for the benefit of eg people with invisible disabilities, who can't wear a mask.

Men are always being exhorted to deal with each others shitty behaviour instead of letting it go on unchallenged. I can hardly apologise for doing that. Still, I'm regretting it more and more with each post.


----------



## existentialist (Jul 16, 2021)

Supine said:


> none will say non disposable but they can be reused for ages if you accept any very small risk of contamination.
> 
> ive been using my current one all week.


I can advise that my white FFP2 masks seem to have survived a wash cycle with no apparent loss of performance (obviously, for all I know, the washing process has made them useless, but they seem to present exactly the same resistance to air passing through them, and that's good enough for me)


----------



## krtek a houby (Jul 16, 2021)

mojo pixy said:


> Then again, a macho idiot anti-masker tends to stick out like a sore thumb.



They do.

Fellow non-national walks past this self daily, without a mask, chin up in the air in his swanky shirt and tie. Never an acknowledgement. Said hello once and he just sauntered by, too cool for school.


----------



## 2hats (Jul 16, 2021)

existentialist said:


> I can advise that my white FFP2 masks seem to have survived a wash cycle with no apparent loss of performance (obviously, for all I know, the washing process has made them useless, but they seem to present exactly the same resistance to air passing through them, and that's good enough for me)


Probably not ideal from an electrostatic performance point of view.


----------



## planetgeli (Jul 16, 2021)

20 staff at school today, last day, inset day. Relaxed 'wellbeing' day and they were all going to the pub at 12 anyway. 

I was the only person wearing a mask.

I came home.


----------



## miss direct (Jul 16, 2021)

Popped to the hairdresser today as thought I ought to get a trim before twat day on Monday (also the day I start a new job so good to look smart). Hairdresser said she will continue to wear a mask and doesn't feel safe.


----------



## gentlegreen (Jul 16, 2021)

2hats said:


> Probably not ideal from an electrostatic performance point of view.


Probably best to use a cool wash ...
I ordered black ones so the dirt won't show - plus I will only be wearing mine for half an hour every so many days.
I was thinking I might come up with something like a WW2 gas mask case so I don't have to keep flattening them ...


----------



## bimble (Jul 16, 2021)

mojo pixy said:


> I believe can tell the difference between someone with an invisible disability, and a selfish prick who doesn't care.
> 
> In case I'm wrong, consider this all my confession. Amen.


If you look at the Exemptions list on the Gov website it includes this, which I think might quite easily stretch to span both.


----------



## existentialist (Jul 16, 2021)

2hats said:


> Probably not ideal from an electrostatic performance point of view.


Ah.


----------



## mojo pixy (Jul 16, 2021)

Severe distress 

Being intubated in a HDU is severely distressing, as more people will soon be finding out.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 16, 2021)

mojo pixy said:


> Severe distress
> 
> Being intubated in a HDU is severely distressing, as more people will soon be finding out.


some people would suffer serious panic attacks from having their mouth covered, as it could trigger their PTSD. you can’t see that in someone now matter how much intuition you boast of


----------



## mojo pixy (Jul 16, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> some people would suffer serious panic attacks from having their mouth covered, as it could trigger their PTSD. you can’t see that in someone now matter how much intuition you boast of


I recognize that. But I don't see how it is the focus when bloke this morning was not that. Do we never challenge antisocial behaviour for fear of crossing someone's red line? I don't think so, I think we judge a situation and whether it's appropriate. Or not. I'm having a moment of reflection, because at the end of the day, what do we allow to pass unchallenged then? 

Doesn't really matter now, after Sunday nobody really has to wear a mask any more so there's no reason to challenge it anyway.


----------



## gentlegreen (Jul 16, 2021)

Hydrogen peroxide ...



			https://www.rivm.nl/sites/default/files/2020-03/Hergebruik%20mondkapjes%20Informatie%20ENG_def.pdf


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 16, 2021)

mojo pixy said:


> I recognize that. But I don't see how it is the focus when bloke this morning was not that. Do we never challenge antisocial behaviour for fear of crossing someone's red line? I don't think so, I think we judge a situation and whether it's appropriate. Or not. I'm having a moment of reflection, because at the end of the day, what do we allow to pass unchallenged then?
> 
> Doesn't really matter now, after Sunday nobody really has to wear a mask any more so there's no reason to challenge it anyway.


the point is that you have no way of knowing if this bloke had a hidden disability or not.
you can have your suspicions but you have to keep them to yourself


----------



## 2hats (Jul 16, 2021)

gentlegreen said:


> Hydrogen peroxide ...


...vapour, moist heat, dry heat, ozone, or UV. But none that practical for the average consumer.


----------



## mojo pixy (Jul 16, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> the point is that you have no way of knowing if this bloke had a hidden disability or not.
> you can have your suspicions but you have to keep them to yourself



That means we don't challenge anyone at all for not wearing a mask. Fair enough. That's not how I've approached it every single time, but it's over in two days anyway.


----------



## scifisam (Jul 16, 2021)

mojo pixy said:


> They may well be, but how someone describes themselves is not always exactly what someone else might perceive in them. We don't get to tell other people what to notice or pick up on. What's important is that we pay attention to each other and try to behave with empathy.
> 
> Today I didn't,  and that was a conscious choice on my part because I was annoyed at seeing a large, bolshy man flouting rules that are for the benefit of eg people with invisible disabilities, who can't wear a mask.
> 
> Men are always being exhorted to deal with each others shitty behaviour instead of letting it go on unchallenged. I can hardly apologise for doing that. Still, I'm regretting it more and more with each post.



Fine, you know better than them, due to your magic disability-detecting crip-dar.

And I haven't criticised you for talking to this particular bloke.


----------



## weltweit (Jul 16, 2021)

I will continue to wear them in my local shop, the supermarket, and if I am on public transport.

edited to add: and also at work 

Generally I will wear it as a courtesy for other people so that if I have it I am less likely to infect them, but where others are present and not wearing a mask I will wear mine in an attempt not to be infected by them.


----------



## mojo pixy (Jul 16, 2021)

scifisam said:


> Fine, you know better than them, due to your magic disability-detecting crip-dar.
> 
> And I haven't criticised you for talking to this particular bloke.


I'm not sure why you feel it necessary to mock how anyone perceives anything. "Magic disability detecting cripdar ", what? Is it a bad thing to pay attention to people? "Invisible disability" doesn't  mean invisible to everyone, all the time, for ever. It means it's not immediately obvious to most people and may not be accounted for in day-to-day interactions. Autism is "invisible" but for anyone who understands the condition and is familiar with a lot of people who have some kind of autism, it isn't invisible at all.

Some things are far less noticeable all the way to not at all noticeable, and I never said anything about magic (wtf even) I said what some people may not see, or may believe other people can't see, may be seen or otherwise noticed, in some circumstances.


----------



## bimble (Jul 16, 2021)

I havent challenged anyone at all but definitely not for these sort of higher reasons. Last time i _wanted_ to say something it was three big builder-blokes, came in together, all with no masks (or tops) on, in the tiny space at the Screwfix counter next to me. 
Not for a second did i think oh maybe they all happen to have an invisible disability / PTSD , there's just no way am i going to say anything cos they're bigger than me.
 I think the woman behind the counter would have been quite glad if i'd been a braver person but i'm not.


----------



## scifisam (Jul 16, 2021)

mojo pixy said:


> I'm not sure why you feel it necessary to mock how anyone perceives anything. "Magic disability detecting cripdar ", what? Is it a bad thing to pay attention to people? "Invisible disability" doesn't  mean invisible to everyone, all the time, for ever. It means it's not immediately obvious to most people and may not be accounted for in day-to-day interactions. Autism is "invisible" but for anyone who understands the condition and is familiar with a lot of people who have some kind of autism, it isn't invisible at all.
> 
> Some things are far less noticeable all the way to not at all noticeable, and I never said anything about magic (wtf even) I said what some people may not see, or may believe other people can't see, may be seen or otherwise noticed, in some circumstances.



It's a good thing I never claimed any of that then isn't it.

But I give up. Pretty sure we've all got way better things to do than this.


----------



## killer b (Jul 16, 2021)

I wonder what the ratio of people with hidden disabilities to arseholes is? I reckon you could challenge a few hundred arseholes before you get to your first genuine person with a hidden disability. And those arseholes should be made to feel uncomfortable so, maybe the greater good is served by challenging them and being prepared to offend someone occasionally who doesn't deserve it.


----------



## killer b (Jul 16, 2021)

not that I'd ever do it lol.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 16, 2021)

mojo pixy said:


> That means we don't challenge anyone at all for not wearing a mask. Fair enough. That's not how I've approached it every single time, but it's over in two days anyway.


yes, though i will still be asking people to wear masks if they come into my place of work or come near me


----------



## farmerbarleymow (Jul 16, 2021)

existentialist said:


> Ah.


Couldn't you attach a capacitor to charge the mask back up or something?


----------



## bimble (Jul 16, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> yes, though i will still be asking people to wear masks if they come into my place of work or come near me


How do you ask without challenging?


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 16, 2021)

mojo pixy said:


> I'm not sure why you feel it necessary to mock how anyone perceives anything. "Magic disability detecting cripdar ", what? Is it a bad thing to pay attention to people? "Invisible disability" doesn't  mean invisible to everyone, all the time, for ever. It means it's not immediately obvious to most people and may not be accounted for in day-to-day interactions. Autism is "invisible" but for anyone who understands the condition and is familiar with a lot of people who have some kind of autism, it isn't invisible at all.
> 
> Some things are far less noticeable all the way to not at all noticeable, and I never said anything about magic (wtf even) I said what some people may not see, or may believe other people can't see, may be seen or otherwise noticed, in some circumstances.


it's pretty offensive stuff this, thinking you can tell when someone has a disability and claiming you understand the condition and then going on to claim that autism isn't invisible. you're taking absolute stuff and nonsense


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 16, 2021)

bimble said:


> How do you ask without challenging?


Can you put a mask on please?


----------



## mojo pixy (Jul 16, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> it's pretty offensive stuff this, thinking you can tell when someone has a disability and claiming you understand the condition and then going on to claim that autism isn't invisible. you're taking absolute stuff and nonsense


Be offended if you want.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 16, 2021)

mojo pixy said:


> Be offended if you want.


I'm not offended but it's not a choice to be offended


----------



## campanula (Jul 16, 2021)

O absolutely. The last coupla years have been a most relaxing time since I no longer have to search, frantically for my teeth before stepping out.


----------



## scifisam (Jul 16, 2021)

killer b said:


> I wonder what the ratio of people with hidden disabilities to arseholes is? I reckon you could challenge a few hundred arseholes before you get to your first genuine person with a hidden disability. And those arseholes should be made to feel uncomfortable so, maybe the greater good is served by challenging them and being prepared to offend someone occasionally who doesn't deserve it.



I've had people berate me for so sitting in the priority seat on buses, and using a blue badge, because when I'm sitting down you can't tell I have mobility issues. It's really, really shit.


----------



## bimble (Jul 16, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> Can you put a mask on please?


And mostly people do ? Good.


----------



## eatmorecheese (Jul 16, 2021)

Just back from the fucking supermarket, fucking cunts everywhere fucking maskless, no enforcement or challenging going on, getting fucking dirty looks from all these fucking rugged individualists claiming their fucking freedom.  _CUNTS._

Back to online collection and delivery then


----------



## killer b (Jul 16, 2021)

scifisam said:


> I've had people berate me for so sitting in the priority seat on buses, and using a blue badge, because when I'm sitting down you can't tell I have mobility issues. It's really, really shit.


sure, and that's bad - but I don't think there's really a greater good served by challenging people sat in priority seats. You sitting on the priority seat doesn't contribute to the spread of a disease that could kill my gran.


----------



## mojo pixy (Jul 16, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> I'm not offended but it's not a choice to be offended


This is sometimes true.



scifisam said:


> I've had people berate me for so sitting in the priority seat on buses, and using a blue badge, because when I'm sitting down you can't tell I have mobility issues. It's really, really shit.



That's just rude, sorry to hear it. It isn't the same as challenging a mask refuser during a pandemic though, especially a large, privileged, swaggering refuser who's staring people down.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 16, 2021)

bimble said:


> And mostly people do ? Good.


Yes. though not sure how it will pan out next week.
If they say they're exempt, we don't question it.
Some people have lanyards with sunflowers on but not everyone.


----------



## scifisam (Jul 16, 2021)

killer b said:


> sure, and that's bad - but I don't think there's really a greater good served by challenging people sat in priority seats. You sitting on the priority seat doesn't contribute to the spread of a disease that could kill my gran.



True, but it's another reason to do it politely, if you do challenge someone, innit?

Think your estimate of hidden disabilities might be a bit low too.


----------



## Raheem (Jul 16, 2021)

.


----------



## mojo pixy (Jul 16, 2021)

Raheem said:


> .


Brief and to the point


----------



## killer b (Jul 16, 2021)

scifisam said:


> Think your estimate of hidden disabilities might be a bit low too.


I'm not estimating people with hidden disabilities as a percentage of the population though, I'm estimating people with hidden disabilities you might encounter in a busy enclosed area, strutting.


----------



## Raheem (Jul 16, 2021)

mojo pixy said:


> Brief and to the point


.!


----------



## Raheem (Jul 16, 2021)

killer b said:


> I'm not estimating people with hidden disabilities as a percentage of the population though, I'm estimating people with hidden disabilities you might encounter in a busy enclosed area, strutting.


Why are people with hidden disabilities not going to behave like anyone else most of the time?


----------



## killer b (Jul 16, 2021)

well for one thing, the most significant group of disabled people who are mask-exempt are people with respiratory conditions - everyone I know with a respiratory condition is not going to the supermarket right now, or doing so very late at night or early in the morning, and keeping their distance very carefully indeed.


----------



## bimble (Jul 16, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> I'm not offended but it's not a choice to be offended


i think it is a choice. but thats a whole nother conversation.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 16, 2021)

killer b said:


> well for one thing, the most significant group of disabled people who are mask-exempt are people with respiratory conditions - everyone I know with a respiratory condition is not going to the supermarket right now, or doing so very late at night or early in the morning, and keeping their distance very carefully indeed.


you’d be surprised. the area i work in is very deprived and we have a huge amount of people with COPD and other instances of poor health. And they still have to sort out their council taxes, use PCs, access other services, so we get quite a few through the doors


----------



## killer b (Jul 16, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> you’d be surprised. the area i work in is very deprived and we have a huge amount of people with COPD and other instances of poor health. And they still have to sort out their council taxes, use PCs, access other services, so we get quite a few through the doors


Sure, but I guess they aren't these guys are they? 


Orang Utan said:


> I'm in the opposite position in that I'd be happy to confront the bellends and have a few choice words, but apparently that's not good customer service.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 16, 2021)

killer b said:


> Sure, but I guess they aren't these guys are they?


No, cos they say they're exempt and they get waved in.
The bellends we have to deal with don't say they're exempt, they just blow off about it and talk shite. It's those who I have little patience for.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jul 16, 2021)

There are people who cannot wear masks and there's not necessarily any way you can tell. There is also a massive number of people who are just not wearing masks because they just don't want to. There is no way that I am going to believe that, say, all the groups of 2-5 builders, who are the biggest no-mask wearers in supermarkets in my area (lot of construction work going on round here) are all somehow legitimately exempt. Or half the queue for the artisan butchers in Holland Park - actually, Holland Park is one of the worst areas for masks round here.


----------



## killer b (Jul 16, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> No, cos they say they're exempt and they get waved in.
> The bellends we have to deal with don't say they're exempt, they just blow off about it and talk shite. It's those who I have little patience for.


those are the only people any of us have no patience for.


----------



## moomoo (Jul 16, 2021)

editor said:


> ...and I'm living, breathing (and coughing) proof that you can have two jabs and still get the fucking virus.



Likewise


----------



## wemakeyousoundb (Jul 16, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> aye, solidarity fella.
> 
> does anyone know if there are non-disposable non-black FFP2 masks available anywhere?


that medisave website also sells disinfectant spray for masks


scifisam said:


> You don't have to carry something visible on you to say you're exempt. Wearing a badge that says "I'm disabled" has its own risks.


True, in fact laurence the twat fox ordered himself an exemption thingy off amazon a whilke back


Supine said:


> none will say non disposable but they can be reused for ages if you accept any very small risk of contamination.
> 
> ive been using my current one all week.





FridgeMagnet said:


> ...Or half the queue for the artisan butchers in Holland Park - actually, Holland Park is one of the worst areas for masks round here.


Do they hand carve the steaks then unlike non artisan ones?


----------



## scalyboy (Jul 17, 2021)

eatmorecheese said:


> Just back from the fucking supermarket, fucking cunts everywhere fucking maskless, no enforcement or challenging going on, getting fucking dirty looks from all these fucking rugged individualists claiming their fucking freedom.  _CUNTS._
> 
> Back to online collection and delivery then


This is really rather depressing to hear, sorry you experienced this.

I do struggle to understand why people not wearing masks are offended or annoyed by those who do - what difference does it make to them what someone’s got on their face? Would they be giving dirty looks to women wearing niqabs?

I can only imagine they feel vaguely shamed by someone masked-up and doing the right thing - or does it make them angry that so many of us sheeple have been conned into wearing ‘nappies’ or ‘muzzles’ by slavishly obeying the Man?

Neither explanation seems to quite explain why they were giving you, or anyone, evils just for having the temerity to wear a mask…


----------



## scalyboy (Jul 17, 2021)

existentialist said:


> I can advise that my white FFP2 masks seem to have survived a wash cycle with no apparent loss of performance (obviously, for all I know, the washing process has made them useless, but they seem to present exactly the same resistance to air passing through them, and that's good enough for me)


Is it just me or do some FFP2 masks feel rather flimsy and lightweight? I ordered a few after reading posts here, haven’t worn one out and about yet, thought I’d wait till I have to go on public transport.

These ones feel sort of lightweight, as if they might come off in a breeze. I did wonder if they were intended as single-use only, which would get kinda expensive, so it’s good to know existentialist that they can withstand being washed.

Previously on the tubes and buses I’ve been wearing a cyclist mask, one where you change the filter every so often. There’s also those cloth masks with a pocket for a filter (again, replaceable every so often).

I wonder what the comparable effectiveness of these three types are? (Hope people can understand the 3 different ones I’m on about - I should’ve posted pics really 🙁)


----------



## scalyboy (Jul 17, 2021)

miss direct said:


> Popped to the hairdresser today as thought I ought to get a trim before twat day on Monday (also the day I start a new job so good to look smart). Hairdresser said she will continue to wear a mask and doesn't feel safe.


Apparently hairdressers have been designated as high-risk places, risk from an infected hairdresser rather than from other people in the shop. I used to feel fairly safe in my local barbers as they were observing the regulations, masks, sanitizer, door open, but I’d be surprised if they continue to do so after the 19th. Last time I was in there - one month ago - he said, you don’t need to wear a mask if you don’t want to 🙁

Although the risk for me is far less than for other customers, as it only takes him 10 minutes or so to cut what little of my hair still remains…


----------



## zora (Jul 17, 2021)

scalyboy said:


> Is it just me or do some FFP2 masks feel rather flimsy and lightweight? I ordered a few after reading posts here, haven’t worn one out and about yet, thought I’d wait till I have to go on public transport.
> 
> These ones feel sort of lightweight, as if they might come off in a breeze. I did wonder if they were intended as single-use only, which would get kinda expensive, so it’s good to know existentialist that they can withstand being washed.
> 
> ...



This was just discussed on a different thread, and someone posted some percertanges of protection they are meant to offer, sorry I can't remember where.

But basically in this order
FFP2
Surgical masks
Cloth masks, 
with FFP2 masks being the only ones offering good protection to the wearer themselves even if others are not wearing masks

Proper FFP2 masks should not be washed, and are likely to lose some of their filtration properties in the process (which is not just based on the density of the weave).

Little geeky video here

So they are in a sense "disposable", however unless you work in a covid ICU, they don't have to be single use either. 
Someone suggested getting 5 and rotating them throughout the week, just letting any potential virus on them "dry" out. 

Personally, I have been wearing surgical/cloth at work, where everyone is wearing masks, floorspace is large and contacts are relatively brief. Likewise when I pop into shops. And on the bus while they are fairly empty and windows are open. 
Been wearing FFP2s on the tube and the train. If busses get busier and if fewer people are wearing masks from next week and cases continue to rise, I'll wear them there as well. 

They should not be feeling flimsy, and certainly not like a breeze could blow them off. They got little plastic thingies to tighten the elastic at the back of your head - they should be fitting really flush to your face, possibly even digging in a bit and properly seal, otherwise you are just gonna breathe unfiltered air in and out round the sides.


----------



## scalyboy (Jul 17, 2021)

killer b said:


> not that I'd ever do it lol.


I did a couple of times on the tube, this was before the vaccination programme had begun and I would sometimes get enraged at people who couldn’t be arsed to wear a mask. (Usually I’d just move away, but in one case some bloke followed me onto another platform, probably coincidental but I didn’t remain silent then and where else would I have moved to?)

I did start off politely in case they were exempt, but in this one instance it escalated quite quickly, and afterwards I questioned the wisdom of my provoking someone who might then get up in my face and potentially be gobbing / spraying me with saliva in fury…

After getting the second jab I calmed down though, thinking things were then safe so no reason to get agitated…. Not so sure about that now, because of reports of double-jabbed people becoming infected / getting ill with Covid.


----------



## scalyboy (Jul 17, 2021)

zora said:


> This was just discussed on a different thread, and someone posted some percertanges of protection they are meant to offer, sorry I can't remember where.
> 
> But basically in this order
> FFP2
> ...



Thank you - sorry, I should probably have posted on the Face Mask thread, saw it too late 🙁


----------



## Ax^ (Jul 17, 2021)

hmm might be a good idea to keep the mask's on

Health Secretary Sajid Javid tests positive for Covid

 

when was the last time he was next to De Piffle


----------



## zora (Jul 17, 2021)

No 


scalyboy said:


> Thank you - sorry, I should probably have posted on the Face Mask thread, saw it too late 🙁


No probs, this is just as good a place as any - I couldn't find the discussion from earlier in the day or yesterday either, but in any case it's relevant to lots of covid threads.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Jul 17, 2021)

scalyboy said:


> I do struggle to understand why people not wearing masks are offended or annoyed by those who do - what difference does it make to them what someone’s got on their face? Would they be giving dirty looks to women wearing niqabs?



quite possibly, yes.


----------



## Ax^ (Jul 17, 2021)

scalyboy said:


> I do struggle to understand why people not wearing masks are offended or annoyed by those who do - what difference does it make to them what someone’s got on their face? Would they be giving dirty looks to women wearing niqabs?



have a look at the anti vaxxer protest from the last year quite a lot of overlap with the very type of people who would say and give more than a dirty look to a women in a niqab


----------



## mentalchik (Jul 18, 2021)

FridgeMagnet said:


> There are people who cannot wear masks and there's not necessarily any way you can tell. There is also a massive number of people who are just not wearing masks because they just don't want to. There is no way that I am going to believe that, say, all the groups of 2-5 builders, who are the biggest no-mask wearers in supermarkets in my area (lot of construction work going on round here) are all somehow legitimately exempt. Or half the queue for the artisan butchers in Holland Park - actually, Holland Park is one of the worst areas for masks round here.


we have a lot of construction workers saying they're exempt too.....or like the guy who walked up to our entrance smoking a spliff, capped it and walked with it in his fingers but wearing a lanyard coz he has 'breathing issues' 75% of the local student body all seemed to have developed asthma too


----------



## Badgers (Jul 18, 2021)

Again YES





__





						England Summary | Coronavirus (COVID-19) in the UK
					

Official Coronavirus (COVID-19) disease situation dashboard with latest data in the UK.




					coronavirus.data.gov.uk


----------



## Leafster (Jul 18, 2021)

I did my shopping in Waitrose yesterday. 100% mask wearing both customers and staff. 

Popped in the local corner shop on my way back. There were three customers and one staff member, none of them wearing masks.


----------



## gentlegreen (Jul 18, 2021)

My favourite man living in a shed in NSW has a good rant.
(ex-nurse)


----------



## Badgers (Jul 18, 2021)

No. 

Because I am part of a 'trial' so can carry on spreading the virus around my family and place of work. 

#worldbeating


----------



## 2hats (Jul 18, 2021)

Slight problem...

UVC is most effective at killing viruses (is used in sterilising hardware). UVB less so, but has some effect. UVA very little - far more effective at ageing your skin though.

Plenty of UVA/UVB in NSW but car windows block UVB and car windscreens (laminated) block UVA (doors and rear windscreen sometimes not).

Needs to hang the mask outside.


----------



## scalyboy (Jul 18, 2021)

Leafster said:


> I did my shopping in Waitrose yesterday. 100% mask wearing both customers and staff.
> 
> Popped in the local corner shop on my way back. There were three customers and one staff member, none of them wearing masks.


Same story round my way; haven’t been in the corner shop for some time, cos the last time I did it was full of people most of them or all maskless, waiting to pay in a small area. Pity, cos I like the guys who run the corner shop and enjoy chatting with them, but f*** that, it’s Tesco or Waitrose or home delivery now 🙁


----------



## glitch hiker (Jul 18, 2021)

Badgers said:


> No.
> 
> Because I am part of a 'trial' so can carry on spreading the virus around my family and place of work.
> 
> #worldbeating


I'm taking part in an ongoing government study, that's lasted ten years thus far, where I'm allowed to be a complete antisocial thundercunt. So far it's failed to get me selected to join the Tories


----------



## Ax^ (Jul 18, 2021)

2hats said:


> Slight problem...
> 
> UVC is most effective at killing viruses (is used in sterilising hardware). UVB less so, but has some effect. UVA very little - far more effective at ageing your skin though.
> 
> ...



quite a bit still get through so not completely useless idea

maybe not with it being 11 degree in sydney atm


----------



## 2hats (Jul 18, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> quite a bit still get through so not completely useless idea


Zero UVB (280-315 nm) and less than half (if that) of incident UVA (315-400 nm), which has very little effective virucidal activity anyway (UVB needs orders of magnitudes more dose/exposure time to achieve the same degree of sterilisation as UVC, and UVA in turn needs orders of magnitude compared to UVB; DOI: 10.1039/D0PP00221F).





DOI: 10.1016/j.jaad.2005.11.1082.

All he has to do is peg it out outside in direct sunlight. Particularly direct sunlight in NSW.


----------



## Ax^ (Jul 18, 2021)

as some who if i drove around today would get burnt through the windscreen of my car i'm not going to argue with the graph 

also atm its winter in Australia


----------



## 2hats (Jul 18, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> as some who if i drove around today would get burnt through the windscreen of my car i'm not going to argue with the graph


Plenty of direct and scattered UVA coming in through the side windows.


> also atm its winter in Australia


All the more reason to place it outside.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Jul 18, 2021)

glitch hiker said:


> I'm taking part in an ongoing government study, that's lasted ten years thus far, where I'm allowed to be a complete antisocial thundercunt. So far it's failed to get me selected to join the Tories


You'll just have to get nastier.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jul 18, 2021)

Saw around ten people today, maskless. That's a lot, round these parts.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jul 18, 2021)

Anecdotally I haven't noticed any change in my area (Shepherd's Bush). Some people go into shops without masks, worse in smaller corner shops, but they always did. OTOH a noticeable number of people wear masks on the street all the time when they don't have to. I have a feeling people have now reached their own general estimation of the risks and how they should behave - some will have been put off by mask laws and will stop wearing them at all when they don't have to, but if shops continue to "require" masks I don't think there'll be a lot of change there.

I don't know how much difference the actual legal status of masks makes when it's been entirely obvious for months that nothing happens to you if you don't wear a mask in a shop.


----------



## Badgers (Jul 18, 2021)

Yes


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 18, 2021)

glitch hiker said:


> I'm taking part in an ongoing government study, that's lasted ten years thus far, where I'm allowed to be a complete antisocial thundercunt. So far it's failed to get me selected to join the Tories


Try harder


----------



## Badgers (Jul 18, 2021)




----------



## two sheds (Jul 18, 2021)

But ... but ... but ... the bells should ring for_ the invasion_


----------



## Dystopiary (Jul 18, 2021)

But then...

"The Dean refused permission for the proposed Monday ringing to take place on hearing about it."

 

_We apologise sincerely that the Dean made us act like woke babies. Sorry to spoil the fun._


----------



## zora (Jul 18, 2021)

Badgers said:


> View attachment 279351




Oh wow, that's pretty special! Had to look it up on Twitter and the feedback they received was indeed rather robust! 😂


----------



## Raheem (Jul 18, 2021)

Dystopiary said:


> But then...
> 
> "The Dean refused permission for the proposed Monday ringing to take place on hearing about it."
> 
> ...



They'll be running in hysterical circles at GB News when they hear this. And before they hear it, obvs.


----------



## xenon (Jul 18, 2021)

They were going to ring the bells for 3.5 hours?

Or just once, randomly during that time.


----------



## Badgers (Jul 18, 2021)

Yes


----------



## kebabking (Jul 19, 2021)

We could hear someone letting of fireworks last night...

We'll continue to wear masks in enclosed spaces - as a courtesy as much as anything else - we won't be eating or drinking inside, we'll be doing the handwash thing, we'll go to outside attractions like ruined castles, and I might see if I can sneak into Durham Cathedrals exhibition of Hogsback grave markers.

We have eaten inside pubs with the social distancing measures in place, but if its a free-for-all then no way, we're out - and we'll be happy to be out.


----------



## scalyboy (Jul 19, 2021)

kebabking said:


> We could hear someone letting of fireworks last night...
> 
> We'll continue to wear masks in enclosed spaces - as a courtesy as much as anything else - we won't be eating or drinking inside, we'll be doing the handwash thing, we'll go to outside attractions like ruined castles, and I might see if I can sneak into Durham Cathedrals exhibition of Hogsback grave markers.
> 
> We have eaten inside pubs with the social distancing measures in place, but if its a free-for-all then no way, we're out - and we'll be happy to be out.


Oh gawd, I heard fireworks at midnight last night too, didn’t twig until now.

This all reminds me of how divisive Brexit was (and still is).
Just as I find it quite incomprehensible that anyone would want to celebrate the start of a dangerous experiment with the nation’s health, I’m sure there’s many other people who’d be equally mystified as to why anyone would want to keep mandatory mask regulations and other Covid measures.

Maybe I’d feel different and would want to celebrate if I ran a business or worked in a sector that has been severely impacted by the restrictions - however I still don’t get why places could re-open but with masks still mandatory indoors.

This really does feel like pandering to the lunatic fringe of Toby Young-style ‘Covid sceptics’ to me.
And considering Johnson was very ill with Covid, he can hardly be an ‘it’s no worse than flu’ merchant can he? It all points to his desperate need to be liked, just as Trump was obsessed with ratings.


----------



## gentlegreen (Jul 19, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Yes



Chicken pox party...

I thought I spotted grim resignation very early on in 2020 with the _*elderly *_shopping maskless ...

Up until recently I saw the main threat as being *to *me *from *the young, (massively tempered by knowing just how much shite had been dumped on them in recent years compared to my boomer privilege and good luck)...
But seeing some 20-somethings wearing masks in the street in the heat has made me realise that the balance has flipped so now it's the reckless middle-aged putting the unvaccinated young at risk by failing to understand what being double vaccinated does and doesn't mean.


----------



## Lord Camomile (Jul 19, 2021)

I feel like the whole cabinet, and arguably anyone celebrating 'Freedom Day' should state now for the record how many deaths they're willing to accept while not going back to precautionary measures. 

So few people set the marker up front, it's always played around with after the event.


----------



## Aladdin (Jul 19, 2021)

scifisam said:


> Do you mean the England team? Nobody really expects a sports team to wear masks unless they're playing ice hockey, surely? Doesn't exactly tell you anything about other people's behaviour.
> 
> I still see almost everyone wearing masks in shops and on the tube here.




We had the Munster hurling final yesterday. 
The spectators were socially distanced and wearing masks. The pitch officials all masked. Managers...masked.
Players...obvs not masked but all tested pre match.

I cant see people ditching the masks here any time soon. 

Indoor dining/drinking to start from next Monday for the fully vaccinated.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Jul 19, 2021)

Sugar Kane said:


> Indoor dining/drinking to start from next Monday for the fully vaccinated.



How will they be checking that, is Ireland introducing vaccine passports?


----------



## steveo87 (Jul 19, 2021)

Everyone on the bus was wearing a mask this morning, which was heartening.


----------



## maomao (Jul 19, 2021)

Lord Camomile said:


> I feel like the whole cabinet, and arguably anyone celebrating 'Freedom Day' should state now for the record how many deaths they're willing to accept while not going back to precautionary measures.
> 
> So few people set the marker up front, it's always played around with after the event.


In December, with no lockdown there were 4-500 people a day dying and yet no-one dragged Johnson and Hancock into the street and hung them from lampposts. Or made much of a fuss at all really.


----------



## Aladdin (Jul 19, 2021)

cupid_stunt said:


> How will they be checking that, is Ireland introducing vaccine passports?



It's a bit funny. Anyone fully vaccinated will get or has received a qr code in a letter or email. 
(I've not received mine but both my parents received theirs last week and have no intention of dining indoors anywhere bar home)

The qr code has to be scanned in the pub / restaurant before you are let in. Children are allowed in without vacc though so it's all going to go to waste.


----------



## gentlegreen (Jul 19, 2021)

My twenty ffp2s arrive today - not sure if I'll bother setting up a PVC UV-sterilising "greenhouse"  for them  -  given I only go out shopping a couple of times a week so will only need a very few in rotation .. I was thinking I might make an ironic WW2 gas mask box to carry them to prolong the life of the edge wire - my informal masks are carelessly stuffed in my cargo pockets ...

I may well revert to my fabric mask for simply walking to the park - unless it becomes politically expedient - but I may still want to make a flat case so I can keep an unused ffp2 in reserve for unplanned shopping ... I'll see what they have in the pound shop that I can adapt ...


----------



## Leafster (Jul 19, 2021)

scalyboy said:


> Oh gawd, I heard fireworks at midnight last night too, didn’t twig until now.
> 
> This all reminds me of how divisive Brexit was (and still is).
> Just as I find it quite incomprehensible that anyone would want to celebrate the start of a dangerous experiment with the nation’s health, I’m sure there’s many other people who’d be equally mystified as to why anyone would want to keep mandatory mask regulations and other Covid measures.
> ...





kebabking said:


> We could hear someone letting of fireworks last night...
> 
> We'll continue to wear masks in enclosed spaces - as a courtesy as much as anything else - we won't be eating or drinking inside, we'll be doing the handwash thing, we'll go to outside attractions like ruined castles, and I might see if I can sneak into Durham Cathedrals exhibition of Hogsback grave markers.
> 
> We have eaten inside pubs with the social distancing measures in place, but if its a free-for-all then no way, we're out - and we'll be happy to be out.


There were fireworks going off here too late last night. I don't know why, but I did wonder if it was "freedom" day related.


----------



## existentialist (Jul 19, 2021)

gentlegreen said:


> My twenty ffp2s arrive today - not sure if I'll bother setting up a PVC UV-sterilising "greenhouse"  for them  -  given I only go out shopping a couple of times a week so will only need a very few in rotation .. I was thinking I might make an ironic WW2 gas mask box to carry them to prolong the life of the edge wire - my informal masks are carelessly stuffed in my cargo pockets ...
> 
> I may well revert to my fabric mask for simply walking to the park - unless it becomes politically expedient - but I may still want to make a flat case so I can keep an unused ffp2 in reserve for unplanned shopping ... I'll see what they have in the pound shop that I can adapt ...


If yours are anything like mine, an empty CD case might make quite a good mask holder. Except for their legendary fragility, I suppose...


----------



## miss direct (Jul 19, 2021)

When I am making an effort, I keep a mask in a plastic ziplock bag and take care to take it out by the strings.

Will have to try to avoid housemate today. She's already put something up on social media about "happy freedom day" (non ironically).


----------



## glitch hiker (Jul 19, 2021)

xenon said:


> They were going to ring the bells for 3.5 hours?
> 
> Or just once, randomly during that time.


Probably on the hour. 

Like all church bells do 

Anyway

It's like when William Blake wrote about ye cancel culture


----------



## gentlegreen (Jul 19, 2021)

existentialist said:


> If yours are anything like mine, an empty CD case might make quite a good mask holder. Except for their legendary fragility, I suppose...


As well as being UV-transparent 

My new masks turned up just as I has heading out to the shops.
I think I may have to mod them slightly to fit my face better - though it was reassuringly compressing in and out with my breathing by the time I'd worn it a bit ...

I encountered one obvious "freedom day" -type in Tesco .... she muttered something under her breath as I paused by the exit to gel my hands... other than her there was a 20-something hipster-type who came in with a young woman who was masked ...

The pickle shop had thrown caution to the wind, but I expected that ...


----------



## BillRiver (Jul 19, 2021)

Leafster said:


> There were fireworks going off here too late last night. I don't know why, but I did wonder if it was "freedom" day related.



Or Eid?


----------



## bimble (Jul 19, 2021)

Maybe urban is not as weird as all that.


----------



## BillRiver (Jul 19, 2021)

bimble said:


> Maybe urban is not as weird as all that.
> 
> View attachment 279422



Or is as wierd as all that, but for reasons unrelated to this?


----------



## scalyboy (Jul 19, 2021)

gentlegreen said:


> I encountered one obvious "freedom day" -type in Tesco .... she muttered something under her breath as I paused by the exit to gel my hands...


This is so weird - why can it possibly offend them if you gel your hands? I hope I’m wrong, but I’m getting the sense that - just as the Brexit referendum result empowered certain people to voice their unpleasant anti-furriner & racist views in public, ones they’d previously kept quiet about - this change of law / ‘freedom day’ is going to empower some to express their dislike and scorn for … what exactly? People who are still behaving cautiously because we’re still in the middle of a pandemic? 🙄
 I know I keep repeating myself, but I can’t fathom it.


----------



## miss direct (Jul 19, 2021)

I was pleasantly surprised to find the ratio of masked to unmasked much the same on my local high street. I think the anti mask people had already stopped wearing them.

There was a woman with one on her chin...she was also shoplifting quite blatantly. I didn't get involved.


----------



## mentalchik (Jul 19, 2021)

Pleasantly suprised today that the huge majority of people are still wearing their masks....most of my colleagues are as well


----------



## gentlegreen (Jul 19, 2021)

It's a pity "freedom day" had to be so bloody hot.


----------



## scalyboy (Jul 19, 2021)

miss direct said:


> She's already put something up on social media about "happy freedom day" (non ironically).


I was talking to a Jamaican neighbour earlier today, she said every time she sees the words ‘freedom day’ she wants to kick someone. “What about emancipation from 400 years of slavery”, she said, “that’s a better use of the term ‘freedom’”.

She’s usually amused and jovial, but was proper irate today, and I get it… the sense of entitlement, and the slightest curbs on our pampered, luxurious lifestyles and people think they’re living in North Korea. See also: wearing yellow stars to protest ‘vaccine passports’ when going on holiday.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jul 19, 2021)

I can't say I've ever noticed anyone even roll their eyes at me in a mask or gelling my hands, but then (a) my high street is a pretty mixed and tolerant place, people do all sorts of stuff in general and you just live and let live, and (b) I am big and male and hairy and have such bad Resting Bitch Face that you can see it even under a mask.


----------



## Badgers (Jul 19, 2021)

Popped to Lidl earlier for a meeting with the manager. He was not wearing a mask, no staff on the shop floor were wearing masks and roughly 10% of shoppers were and it was busy as usual. 

Other places I went were around 50% masked


----------



## Supine (Jul 19, 2021)

If freedom day wasn’t on the news i wouldn’t have noticed any changes to behaviour


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 19, 2021)

miss direct said:


> I was pleasantly surprised to find the ratio of masked to unmasked much the same on my local high street. I think the anti mask people had already stopped wearing them.
> 
> There was a woman with one on her chin...she was also shoplifting quite blatantly. I didn't get involved.


you’d have thought in a shoplifting situation it might be advantageous to wear a mask. what a doilum


----------



## l'Otters (Jul 20, 2021)

on storing masks; my understanding is the virus’ lipid envelope will degrade over time outside of a host; it’s going to degrade faster on a porous surface (such as paper, textile, cardboard) than on non porous (such as metal, plastic). It needs to latch onto a new host cell before the lipid layer dies, once that happens the strand of virus RNA dies. Based on that, I try to make sure I hang my masks up so the air can get to them as much as possible, and if I’ve taken a medical mask off while I’m out I put it in a paper envelope.


----------



## l'Otters (Jul 20, 2021)

scalyboy said:


> This is so weird - why can it possibly offend them if you gel your hands? I hope I’m wrong, but I’m getting the sense that - just as the Brexit referendum result empowered certain people to voice their unpleasant anti-furriner & racist views in public, ones they’d previously kept quiet about - this change of law / ‘freedom day’ is going to empower some to express their dislike and scorn for … what exactly? People who are still behaving cautiously because we’re still in the middle of a pandemic? 🙄
> I know I keep repeating myself, but I can’t fathom it.


I think it winds them up because it reminds them of the entire issue which they’re at odds with. Can’t see into their minds of course but this is what I think goes on with some.


----------



## Riklet (Jul 20, 2021)

I just bung my mask in my pocket and reuse it endlessly.

Its a pretty warm and gross pocket. No chance virus! Works for me


----------



## Badgers (Jul 21, 2021)




----------



## The39thStep (Jul 21, 2021)

Talking to this Portuguese fella last night who works as a superviser at a hotel in Albufeira who said that he spends most of his time asking tourists to put on a mask if they are moving about the hotel.


----------



## LDC (Jul 21, 2021)

Just been to supermarket and it'd be hard to tell the difference to last week, nearly everyone was wearing a mask, the few that weren't were all young men, which is pretty standard ime.

Did have a social worker round the house on Monday (booked appointment with someone else here) and they walked in with no mask on, sat in a room for 30 mins with that person, and at no point offered to wear one.


----------



## two sheds (Jul 21, 2021)

Badgers said:


>



Their place I suppose, but they are either ignorant of or don't care about their customers' health. Good of them to warn people what they're like.


----------



## cyril_smear (Jul 21, 2021)

Orang Utan speaking to the library near me they said they won’t enforce mask wearing, but do encourage it. Are you still saying you won’t let people in yours if they don’t have a mask.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 21, 2021)

cyril_smear said:


> Orang Utan speaking to the library near me they said they won’t enforce mask wearing, but do encourage it. Are you still saying you won’t let people in yours if they don’t have a mask.


no, i never said i wouldn’t


----------



## cyril_smear (Jul 21, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> no, i never said i wouldn’t


I misunderstood you then. Sorry.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 21, 2021)

cyril_smear said:


> I misunderstood you then. Sorry.


i just ask/tell people to wear them. if they don’t, we cannot challenge them further


----------



## bimble (Jul 21, 2021)

bimble said:


> I had a really shit experience yesterday, had an appointment to meet someone in a small public-facing office on the high street.
> Tatty old sign on the door saying no mask no entry, as you'd expect. Woman opens the door, no mask, nobody in there was wearing one, _and my instinct was to take mine off,_ because what the fuck is the point, or because peer pressure or i don't even know why.
> Instead i left without sitting down because i didn't like the people and there was an easy excuse to delay and do it by phone instead but i did not say anything at all about the mask thing, Will do in an email later tho.


Completely dull update to this dull story: They sent me their quote for the work, I emailed back saying thanks but i'm going somewhere else where the people are not anti mask dickheads, no response. Because of course there's no response they're not going to bother going sheeple or whatever, they'll just get all the anti-maskers' business and other people will go elsewhere.


----------



## [62] (Jul 21, 2021)

Was up in London for the first time this year yesterday. Funny that mask wearing on the Tube - where it's still compulsory - was about 60%. Masks no longer required on my train from Waterloo back to Exeter, but nearly everyone was wearing one.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jul 21, 2021)

It is quite pressuring to find yourself in a place where nobody else is wearing masks. I went to a coffee shop yesterday where nobody else had one on - obviously not people sitting down but also no staff or other takeaway customers. I immediately felt out of place and that I should take it off.

Having said that, I then got cross at being made to feel like that as well as being tempted to not do something I wanted to, and decided I would absolutely keep it on.

They are perfectly nice people there, they talked to me just like anyone else, it's not like they'd set things up to shame people in masks, but that's not really the point.


----------



## Tankus (Jul 21, 2021)

Went  shopping  in Wenvoes  Lidl  this  morning   , 100% masked  , both staff  and customers


----------



## Badgers (Jul 21, 2021)

Tankus said:


> Went  shopping  in Wenvoes  Lidl  this  morning   , 100% masked  , both staff  and customers


Good to hear. The Lidl I went to in Luton upthread was around 10%


----------



## Lord Camomile (Jul 21, 2021)

In our (uni) libraries all visitors are still expected to wear masks, so when I was on site yesterday it was still _relatively_ similar to before Monday.

However, while certainly the majority of people were still wearing masks on transport, it wasn't as much of a majority as previously, plus there just also seemed to be more people around again generally.

And of course people are getting pinged more, because more people are circulating, thereby increasing the odds you'll come into contact with someone who turns out to test positive.


----------



## Leafster (Jul 21, 2021)

Just come back from my local Waitrose. They still have the "clean trolley" rank, foot operated hand sanitiser outside and all the protective screens up inside. It was busy but I did spot three people without masks. One was part of the construction team as they're re-fitting the shop, the second was a young bloke with a football top on and the third was a middle-aged bloke.


----------



## moochedit (Jul 21, 2021)

Almost everyone at my work has stopped wearing masks. I'm still wearing mine but i'm in a minority. Not had anyone tell me to take it off though. (I was home working until about 4 weeks ago).

As far as shops i have been in round here are concerned most of the customers and staff still seem to be wearing them.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jul 21, 2021)

Just back from Sainsbury's, only one bloke not wearing a mask, they have removed the one way in and out thing today, just one big door that you can use in either direction, at the scab tills they have removed 3/4 of the screens between the tills for some reason.


----------



## kalidarkone (Jul 21, 2021)

Just been up the seven sisters and Holloway Road and there appears to be much more mask wearing then previously.


----------



## cyril_smear (Jul 21, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> i just ask/tell people to wear them. if they don’t, we cannot challenge them further


Just so you don’t think I’m a bigger twat than I’m already judged on here, I would ,unbegrudgingly, wear a mask if I were asked. But my answer to the OP remains no.


----------



## cyril_smear (Jul 21, 2021)

I’ll say it again, almost nobody IN LEEDS has being wearing mask for some time... hence the highest percentage increase in transmissions(as reported yesterday).


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 21, 2021)

cyril_smear said:


> I’ll say it again, almost nobody IN LEEDS has being wearing mask for some time... hence the highest percentage increase in transmissions(as reported yesterday).


this is not true.


----------



## LDC (Jul 21, 2021)

cyril_smear said:


> I’ll say it again, almost nobody IN LEEDS has being wearing mask for some time... hence the highest percentage increase in transmissions(as reported yesterday).



'Almost nobody' in a city of 780,000? You sure about that?


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 21, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> 'Almost nobody' in a city of 780,000? You sure about that?


----------



## existentialist (Jul 21, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> 'Almost nobody' in a city of 780,000? You sure about that?


There may still be a few tagnuts on this opinion, from the arse it was pulled out of.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 21, 2021)

i live and work in Leeds in a public building and i’ve just counted 18 out of 24 mask wearers, most of them members of the public.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Jul 21, 2021)

I've been in a couple of local shops since 'freeeeeeeeeeeedom day', a Co-op & a small Tesco, plus a take-a-away, 100% mask wearing by both customers & staff, except one cashier behind a screen.

I need a big shop tomorrow, but I expect it'll be much the same in the big Tesco.


----------



## bimble (Jul 21, 2021)

In the big shops so far the only difference i've noticed round here is that quite a lot fewer staff are wearing them. I think thats totally understandable tbh, having to wear it all day long is very different from popping it on for ten minutes whilst you shop.


----------



## cyril_smear (Jul 21, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> this is not true.


Which part?


----------



## cyril_smear (Jul 21, 2021)

Orang Utan 

So leeds haven’t had the highest rise in percentage of cases?


----------



## magneze (Jul 21, 2021)

Just went into local shop. Just me and the guy behind the till with masks. No-one else (staff or customers) had them on.


----------



## cyril_smear (Jul 21, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> i live and work in Leeds in a public building and i’ve just counted 18 out of 24 mask wearers, most of them members of the public.


No specifics but what kind of building do you work in? One frequented by predominantly elderly people?


----------



## elbows (Jul 21, 2021)

cyril_smear said:


> So they haven’t had the highest rise in percentage of cases?


What is your source for this claim?

It doesnt seem likely that Leeds can currently win any awards in the 'Percentage change in recent 7-day case rates by specimen date' section of the UK dashboard. Its possible they had the highest increases in Yorkshire at some point weeks ago, but more recently things are showing some signs of flattening off there.

But mostly I think people were questioning your 'nobody wearing masks' bullshit in exactly the same way they questioned it last time you came out with this shit.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 21, 2021)

cyril_smear said:


> Which part?


your repeated assertion that almost nobody is wearing masks in Leeds


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 21, 2021)

cyril_smear said:


> No specifics but what kind of building do you work in? One frequented by predominantly elderly people?


no, all ages and ethnicities, mostly working class


----------



## cyril_smear (Jul 21, 2021)

elbows said:


> What is your source for this claim?
> 
> It doesnt seem likely that Leeds can currently win any awards in the 'Percentage change in recent 7-day case rates by specimen date' section of the UK dashboard. Its possible they had the highest increases in Yorkshire at some point weeks ago, but more recently things are showing some signs of flattening off there.
> 
> But mostly I think people were questioning your 'nobody wearing masks' bullshit in exactly the same way they questioned it last time you came out with this shit.


Well it was reported on either Beeb or 4 yesterday 🤷‍♂️ Are they known for not checking facts prior to publication?


----------



## belboid (Jul 21, 2021)

Sheffield city centre, on a blazing hot day.  Notable decrease in people wearing masks on the street - a bit over 10% I’d say.  Pretty much everyone in Sainsbury’s, cex & on the buses tho.


----------



## elbows (Jul 21, 2021)

cyril_smear said:


> Well it was reported on either Beeb or 4 yesterday 🤷‍♂️ Are they known for not checking facts prior to publication?


There are lots of ways to interpret data, I'd need to know the exact nature of the claim in order to judge where its come from and whether its accurate in some sense. The claim is probably narrow and particular and might turn out to be true if I knew exactly what it was.


----------



## cyril_smear (Jul 21, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> your repeated assertion that almost nobody is wearing masks in Leeds





elbows said:


> There are lots of ways to interpret data, I'd need to know the exact nature of the claim in order to judge where its come from and whether its accurate in some sense. The claim is probably narrow and particular and might turn out to be true if I knew exactly what it was.


Google.com


----------



## elbows (Jul 21, 2021)

Some examples:

Leeds has fifth highest infection rate in Yorkshire:









						Live Leeds Covid news as cases continue to sky rocket in the city
					

Leeds has one of the highest infection rates in Yorkshire




					www.leeds-live.co.uk
				




highest number of people self-isolating:









						Over 9,000 currently self-isolating in Leeds as city worst hit in 'Pingdemic' | ITV News
					

Over 9,400 people were "pinged" by the NHS Test and Trace App from the week beginning July 1 in the city, according to the latest NHS Data. | ITV News Calendar




					www.itv.com
				




Google is not much use unless I know exactly what the claim you heard was.


----------



## belboid (Jul 21, 2021)

cyril_smear said:


> Google.com


Google.com doesn’t actually provide any such link. I can find one from a week ago noting a ‘sharp rise’ in cases, doubling within a week.   But even that says it isn’t even in the top five increases.  









						Sharp rise in Leeds Covid cases as rate nearly doubles in a week
					

The city's case rate is now over 80 per 100,000 people




					www.leeds-live.co.uk


----------



## quimcunx (Jul 21, 2021)

bimble said:


> In the big shops so far the only difference i've noticed round here is that quite a lot fewer staff are wearing them. I think thats totally understandable tbh, having to wear it all day long is very different from popping it on for ten minutes whilst you shop.



It's unfortunate in this respect that freedom day coincided with such hot weather. A mask wet with sweat from physical exertion is unpleasant and doesnt work IIRC. But once they have stopped will they start again if that is their reason for not wearing it?


----------



## maomao (Jul 21, 2021)

I'm in Southend today and have barely seen a mask since I got off the train five hours ago.


----------



## elbows (Jul 21, 2021)

The reason I say Leeds will struggle to win on percentage change terms is that their very large number of cases built gradually over a good number of weeks, which would impact percentage changes.



Whereas more recently a lot of places across the country saw more sudden spikes, which would generate larger percentage changes. Just one random example:


----------



## existentialist (Jul 21, 2021)

cyril_smear said:


> Well it was reported on either Beeb or 4 yesterday 🤷‍♂️ Are they known for not checking facts prior to publication?


They're certainly not known for being careful to present a comprehensive overall picture


----------



## existentialist (Jul 21, 2021)

cyril_smear said:


> Google.com


Take a look at who you're replying to. Take a look at his hundreds of complex, carefully evaluated posts, and painstaking statistical work, presentation of graphs, etc. Are you seriously suggesting that a casual Google (I note you don't specify the terms you used) on your part is in any way equivalent to the detail and care that elbows' posts demonstrate?


----------



## Elpenor (Jul 21, 2021)

[62] said:


> Was up in London for the first time this year yesterday. Funny that mask wearing on the Tube - where it's still compulsory - was about 60%. Masks no longer required on my train from Waterloo back to Exeter, but nearly everyone was wearing one.


Good to know - I’m taking the same train on Friday


----------



## weltweit (Jul 21, 2021)

Still using mine and now have a packet of them in the car.


----------



## Looby (Jul 21, 2021)

Went to a shop and chippy on Monday and fairly solid mask wearing.
In Starbucks today I was between 2 women not wearing masks and the one behind me kept getting closer and closer until she was less than a metre away I’d think. I asked her to move back, she gave me a pissy look but did. There were still 2m stickers on the floor but she ignored them. All the staff serving were wearing masks


----------



## gentlegreen (Jul 21, 2021)

I was at the chemists on Tuesday and whereas the staff and queuing customers were masked, there were a good half dozen unmasked people over to the left - I suspect they were queuing for the methadone room ...


----------



## scalyboy (Jul 21, 2021)

Was on the tube earlier today. Seemed to me about the same numbers of people wearing masks vs. those not wearing them as there were before the 19th. (Someone on here suggested the current no-mask people may well be the same ones who weren’t wearing them before, quite possibly true).

Although no-one sat next to me, it did seem notably busier than I remembered; maybe if more and more people are getting vaccinated they feel more confident about using public transport? Or some of those non-public facing companies who had been allowing their staff to WFH now want them back in the office?


----------



## cyberfairy (Jul 21, 2021)

In my recent experience of trains on North West coastal regions, the older people are making more of an effort, the younger ones not so much if at all- last week heard some jollity in carriage behind me about how they were all meant to be self isolating because of a positive test until one of them loudly shushed them incase someone on train heard. Also in my scientific research, no-one apart from me wore a mask when looking at sunglasses in TK Maxx and tbf, my new sunglasses look shit because I could not see myself in mirror successfully.


----------



## wemakeyousoundb (Jul 21, 2021)

cyberfairy said:


> In my recent experience of trains on North West coastal regions, the older people are making more of an effort, the younger ones not so much if at all- last week heard some jollity in carriage behind me about how they were all meant to be self isolating because of a positive test until one of them loudly shushed them incase someone on train heard. Also in my scientific research, no-one apart from me wore a mask when looking at sunglasses in TK Maxx and tbf, my new sunglasses look shit because I could not see myself in mirror successfully.


sorry to read about the sunglasses


----------



## scifisam (Jul 21, 2021)

At the supermarket today the only person not wearing a mask was the security guard, and yeah, I do understand it being more difficult for staff. (I wore one). We're only three days in, of course, but it was encouraging to see that not everyone has instantly ripped off the mask.

My GF said pretty much everyone on her tube commute was wearing a mask.

Seeing people _outside _not wearing masks doesn't signify anything though - that's never been the rule, it's never been as important health-wise, and it's blazing hot.


----------



## l'Otters (Jul 22, 2021)

I went into a branch of Boots to get some medical masks yesterday. They’ve got buy one get one free on the boxes of 20s and 50s. Blue pleated medical ones. Shifting the stock in anticipation of no more demand? 

I was looking for new N95s but they’ve sold out everywhere I’ve looked so far.


----------



## Leafster (Jul 22, 2021)

l'Otters said:


> I went into a branch of Boots to get some medical masks yesterday. They’ve got buy one get one free on the boxes of 20s and 50s. Blue pleated medical ones. Shifting the stock in anticipation of no more demand?
> 
> I was looking for new N95s but they’ve sold out everywhere I’ve looked so far.


Lloyds Pharmacy had N95 masks online - I ordered some last week.


----------



## glitch hiker (Jul 22, 2021)

can you get ffp3 in non disposable form?


----------



## gentlegreen (Jul 22, 2021)

I just bought some of these - I haven't quite made up my mind about them ...
My informal non-certified cloth mask is so convenient - though in retrospect I'm very embarrassed I went for my MRI only wearing that and didn't switch to one of the free ones they were giving out.









						FFP2 Masks x 20
					

Recommended Medical masks for primary / outpatient / community and social care settings. Omnitex premium unvalved FFP2 face masks. EN149 Compliant and CE Certified. Individually Wrapped. Each Box Contains 20 masks + 5 Mask extenders.   Meets FFP2 European Regulation Standards EN149:2001+A1:2009...




					www.medisave.co.uk
				




As for "non-reusable" - that's going to mostly be about not damaging the nose wire - so I managed to find a spare bum bag.


----------



## girasol (Jul 22, 2021)

First visit to pub last night!  Wore a mask when ordering from the bar, then sat outside (without mask) - it was busy, and there was a pub quiz.  It felt almost normal, but bar staff were wearing masks - not the quiz master though.


----------



## Riklet (Jul 22, 2021)

Most people are wearing them round here on buses and in shops from what I can tell. Basically no one wearing them outdoors cos it's a village. Some people wearing them to go to the big pub with a big garden where you have to queue up first. There's a new mini supermarket just opened and have a feeling they won't be bothering there as the staff don't see to be... but at least they have the door open.

Have yet to see a single builder/roofer/scaffolder wearing a mask (lots of building stuff round here). Double points if I spot one of them. Unlikely because fragile masculinity.


----------



## gentlegreen (Jul 22, 2021)

Riklet said:


> Most people are wearing them round here on buses and in shops from what I can tell. Basically no one wearing them outdoors cos it's a village. Some people wearing them to go to the big pub with a big garden where you have to queue up first. There's a new mini supermarket just opened and have a feeling they won't be bothering there as the staff don't see to be... but at least they have the door open.
> 
> Have yet to see a single builder/roofer/scaffolder wearing a mask (lots of building stuff round here). Double points if I spot one of them. Unlikely because fragile masculinity.


Bigger construction firms insist their staff self-test regularly - my BIL works for Lafarge and that's the case there.
And I imagine the same is true for a lot of delivery workers etc - though that doesn't stop them catching and spreading virus between tests ... I don't know how long it takes for someone to get infected and start spreading - especially with at least one vaccination ...


----------



## gentlegreen (Jul 22, 2021)

15.45 Aldi - moderately busy maybe 20 percent maskless - mostly 20-somethings ...


----------



## Badgers (Jul 22, 2021)

gentlegreen said:


> Bigger construction firms insist their staff self-test regularly - my BIL works for Lafarge and that's the case there.
> And I imagine the same is true for a lot of delivery workers etc - though that doesn't stop them catching and spreading virus between tests ... I don't know how long it takes for someone to get infected and start spreading - especially with at least one vaccination ...


Hope that is the same now the big firms are forced to pay for their staff's tests


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jul 22, 2021)

I went one stop on the Hammersmith & City line earlier today and the no-mask proportion was higher than I'd have guessed - around 30%. Having said that, it's an open train, people were waiting for it to depart from Hammersmith, and it was very uncrowded, so I didn't find it a problem personally.


----------



## Epona (Jul 22, 2021)

Went to the supermarket (Iceland) earlier - I was the only one in there wearing a mask.


----------



## Elpenor (Jul 23, 2021)

First time out of house since July 19th. Mask observance in this first class train carriage approx 75%
Sat opposite a small school age child who I expect will give me covid 

Train seems very full with people taking a weekend away in London. More carriages just been attached thankfully. Glad I am in first class as more space and hopefully less busy. 

Family of 4 with 2 adult on table behind me none of them wearing a mask.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jul 23, 2021)

Half the staff in Sainsbury's this morning not wearing masks, nearly all the punters wearing them though.


----------



## StoneRoad (Jul 23, 2021)

Early part of this past week I was working away from home (in Wiltshire) and the %age mask wearing was about the same as a month / six weeks ago. ie 85 to 95% in several shops and almost 100% in the hotel [apart from a member of staff behind a screen and one housekeeper who had a sunflower lanyard but still had a mask available] 100% on the site where I was working but that was just me and my OH.
This end of the week I'm back in home area, mask wearing still in excess of 75% [all ages - not children] and even some outside, despite the heat - the pavements are very narrow and the main street quite busy with traffic passing. Some queues outside the smaller shops. The number of cases has dropped slightly, but then the schools have broken up for summer - and there's a local testing station again.
I have heard an advert from Te5c0 several times recently, basically saying nothing has changed. They still want you in a mask if you can, and screens, sanitising, traffic lights, quiet times for vulnerable etc all still in place ...
[we are still on-line/delivery for groceries and click/collect for other things]

We are still masking up when needed and trying to avoid indoor / crowded spaces ...

At least this mini-heat-wave makes being outside a pleasure !


----------



## Steel Icarus (Jul 23, 2021)

Local opticians still implementing a locked door full mask policy, which was reassuring


----------



## Numbers (Jul 23, 2021)

Epona said:


> Went to the supermarket (Iceland) earlier - I was the only one in there wearing a mask.


It's awful around our ends isn't it, been like it since the start.
I've been to the local shop a cpl of times since Monday, I was the only one wearing a mask.
Been to the local CoOp too, at most 40% wearing masks and most of the staff weren't.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Jul 23, 2021)

Had a dreaded trip to the big Tesco's this morning, a conservative estimate - mask wearing down from over 99% to about 95% plus, so not a big difference.

Did over hear one young couple as they entered, her saying, 'I think we should put on facemasks', him, 'But, we don't have too', her, 'Look around, everyone else is', him, 'I'll get them from the car'.


----------



## scalyboy (Jul 23, 2021)

cupid_stunt said:


> Had a dreaded trip to the big Tesco's this morning, a conservative estimate - mask wearing down from over 99% to about 95% plus, so not a big difference.
> 
> Did over hear one young couple as they entered, her saying, 'I think we should put on facemasks', him, 'But, we don't have too', her, 'Look around, everyone else is', him, 'I'll get them from the car'.


Yes, peer pressure, conforming to the majority/not wishing to stand out is powerful.
I do think this is another reason to keep wearing masks - aside from protecting others and the wearer - the more people who continue to do so, the less unusual it will seem.


----------



## editor (Jul 23, 2021)

On the tube yesterday - only about 50% masked, FFS.


----------



## Supine (Jul 23, 2021)

About to go Kent > Lakes via trains and tubes. Will be masked


----------



## miss direct (Jul 23, 2021)

I volunteered last night and there were some young children. At first I was staying well away but I might have got a bit over excited during pond dipping and was rather close without a mask in an attempt to see the newtlets (is that a word?) I feel as though catching covid is now inevitable at some point this summer unless I just stay at home all the time.


----------



## gentlegreen (Jul 23, 2021)

miss direct said:


> I volunteered last night and there were some young children. At first I was staying well away but I might have got a bit over excited during pond dipping and was rather close without a mask in an attempt to see the newtlets (is that a word?) I feel as though catching covid is now inevitable at some point this summer unless I just stay at home all the time.


I confess it's making me wonder how I will respond if my sister invites me over for a meal any time soon where there would be 3 generations in the house and they keep posting photos of my niece's boy with his great-grandmother - and if not covid, he had a horrible vomiting stomach bug that kept him off school.

A couple of months ago I was fairly happy to meet at their house where most of us were vaccinated and my BIL does regular LFTs - though we were mostly outside.
I now have a different perspective on the meaning of being double-vaccinated ... especially as time moves on past my last dose ...


----------



## xenon (Jul 23, 2021)

belboid said:


> Sheffield city centre, on a blazing hot day.  Notable decrease in people wearing masks on the street - a bit over 10% I’d say.  Pretty much everyone in Sainsbury’s, cex & on the buses tho.



Wearing masks in the street, hardly anyone does that in the UK and it's never been a thing. I only do that if I'm between a couple of nearby shops.

I know it's the law in some other countries but fuck that.


----------



## scalyboy (Jul 23, 2021)

miss direct said:


> I feel as though catching covid is now inevitable at some point this summer unless I just stay at home all the time.


I was just thinking this exact same thing.

With the UK infection rate set to match and exceed January’s peak, with the relaxation of regulations and the Delta variant being more transmittable, getting Covid at some stage does now seem highly likely.
I’ve been very careful up till now (designated extremely vulnerable) and will continue to do so, but the isolation of being cooped up at home alone is not at all good for my mental state!
Just have to hope that being double-jabbed will offset the worst effects of it (as seems to be happening so far, given the comparatively lower rate of hospital admissions)


----------



## elbows (Jul 23, 2021)

I understand that defeatism but I reject it. 'Freedom day' has been described as 'surrender day' in some quarters, and I have no intention of being part of that surrender.


----------



## scalyboy (Jul 23, 2021)

gentlegreen said:


> I now have a different perspective on the meaning of being double-vaccinated ... especially as time moves on past my last dose ...


Completely agree. I think quite a few of us are recalibrating what it means to have been double-vaccinated - the initial sense of relief and freedom I felt after the second jab no longer applies.

I guess we have to hope that vaccination still means that if we contract Covid, the symptoms will be less severe than they would otherwise have been (as seems to be borne out by the much lower rate of hospital admissions at the moment)


----------



## scalyboy (Jul 23, 2021)

elbows said:


> I understand that defeatism but I reject it. 'Freedom day' has been described as 'surrender day' in some quarters, and I have no intention of being part of that surrender.


I'm certainly not advocating being less careful than before, in fact I'm personally being more careful now in terms of avoiding crowds, wearing a mask outdoors in some circumstances, limiting my exposure to indoor venues (shops etc)... it's just that whereas I've hitherto managed to avoid contracting it (I'm on an ONS survey whereby I get tested every few weeks, and have also been self-testing), I am beginning to think I can't assume I will avoid infection as I had before. 

Of course, if this recklessly irresponsible government hadn't caved in to Covid-minimisers and deniers, restrictions would still be in place and feelings of inevitable infection wouldn't necessarily arise...


----------



## elbows (Jul 23, 2021)

Sure, I understand how perceptions of personal risk will change during a wave, I just felt like ranting about surrender and senses of the inevitable when no such inevitability actually exists, just increased risk.

Since hospitalisation was mentioned, here is the current picture of hospital admissions/diagnoses in England.

Unfortunately there is the absurdly broad 18-64 age group which rather obscured a more detailed look at how old most of the patients in this group have been this time. I suspect there will have been a lot more people at the younger end of this group than the older end compared to previous waves, but I cannot prove it with this dataset.

Anyway what we can see is that admissions in the 18-64 group are approaching the same level seen in the autumn wave (but still far below the winter Alpha (Kent) wave peak). The 0-5 and 6-17 age groups have admissions as high as they've ever been. Admissions in the 65-84 and 85+ age groups being so much lower than in previous waves are the main thing that has so far prevented this wave from having the same burden on hospitals as previous waves. I wait nervously to see how high the green line representing 65-84 year old will climb in this wave.


----------



## Epona (Jul 23, 2021)

Numbers said:


> It's awful around our ends isn't it, been like it since the start.
> I've been to the local shop a cpl of times since Monday, I was the only one wearing a mask.
> Been to the local CoOp too, at most 40% wearing masks and most of the staff weren't.



Yeah quite, mask-wearing has been on the decline for quite a while round here so I'm not particularly surprised that so few are wearing them now.


----------



## scalyboy (Jul 23, 2021)

elbows said:


> Sure, I understand how perceptions of personal risk will change during a wave, I just felt like ranting about surrender and senses of the inevitable when no such inevitability actually exists, just increased risk.
> 
> Since hospitalisation was mentioned, here is the current picture of hospital admissions/diagnoses in England.
> 
> ...


Thanks, useful to see this. It's a pity, as you say, that the 18-64 category isn't broken down into smaller groups though. I imagine the UK must have a fair number of unvaccinated 18-20 year olds still.
Would be interesting to see how many double-vaccinated persons have been admitted to hospital in the last few weeks compared to non-vaccinated or single-jab people.


----------



## Badgers (Jul 23, 2021)

miss direct said:


> I feel as though catching covid is now inevitable at some point this summer unless I just stay at home all the time.



It does really depend on your workplace and where you go. I work with the Covid Testing and Vaccine projects at the moment so have been in contact with a lot of positive people and a lot more negative people. 

So far (sounds cheesy but) the hands, space and face thing has kept it away. I test about 10-12 times a week and am firm with people getting too close or not wearing a mask. 

Sounds like I am simplifying this. It is not the case at all. Have a number of staff to  care for and the public are Pricks  it is not nice wearing a sweaty mask for 7-14 hours a day but better than getting Covid-19 ffs


----------



## elbows (Jul 23, 2021)

scalyboy said:


> Thanks, useful to this. It's a pity, as you say, that the 18-64 category isn't broken down into smaller groups though. I imagine the UK must have a fair number of unvaccinated 18-20 year olds still.
> Would be interesting to see how many double-vaccinated persons have been admitted to hospital in the last few weeks compared to non-vaccinated or single-jab people.



Large numbers of unvaccinated or single-dose vaccinated people across a wider range of age groups than that. See for example the tables and charts on pages 78-80 of https://assets.publishing.service.g...005056/Weekly_Flu_and_COVID-19_report_w29.pdf

We get some vague info on vaccinated vs unvaccinated hospitalisations, but not shown over time via graphs much. And Vallance got his figures the wrong way round when he mentioned this stuff in the press conference on Monday. His correction could have been worded better too.




Sorry for the off topic stuff on this thread, I go where the conversation goes.


----------



## wemakeyousoundb (Jul 23, 2021)

Got my FFP2 in time to go work tonight in a small hardly ventilated venue with bands, LFT have been ordered and should be with me so I can test before going to work at the mental hospital next Wednesday


----------



## wemakeyousoundb (Jul 23, 2021)

gentlegreen said:


> I confess it's making me wonder how I will respond if my sister invites me over for a meal any time soon where there would be 3 generations in the house and they keep posting photos of my niece's boy with his great-grandmother - and if not covid,* he had a horrible vomiting stomach bug that kept him off school.*
> 
> A couple of months ago I was fairly happy to meet at their house where most of us were vaccinated and my BIL does regular LFTs - though we were mostly outside.
> I now have a different perspective on the meaning of being double-vaccinated ... especially as time moves on past my last dose ...


norovirus on the rise


----------



## Poot (Jul 23, 2021)

My observations: most people in my local shopping mall wear masks with no complaints. But all the people who are talking loudly about mask-wearing are not wearing masks.


----------



## l'Otters (Jul 23, 2021)

The amount of in person, indoor activity I had to do this past fortnight I think the chances I could have been exposed to covid is pretty high.

I’d hope having had 2 vaccines if I did encounter it I won’t have symptoms.

I understand that if I had it and was asymptomatic I could still pass it on. I’m still wearing masks and doing all my socialising outdoors.


----------



## farmerbarleymow (Jul 23, 2021)

In the local Coop earlier - everyone wearing masks.


----------



## LDC (Jul 23, 2021)

Observations of my first trip into town today since all the restrictions lifted. Mask wearing was generally still pretty high, hard to put a percentage on it and these things are very time of day dependent I think, but noticed that more people seemed to be wearing them outside than before.

Also got 2 trains, hour each way. First one was pretty quiet and mask wearing was about 50/50, but coming back it was much busier and mask wearing was very much the minority.

It's hard not to be pissed off at people and a bit despondent that loads of people can't even do the most basic measures to slow the spread and look after other people tbh. (Yeah, mixed and confused government messages etc etc I know, but still ffs.) I am really glad I've had both vaccines and am not in any high risk groups, it must feel very stressful if you are trying to negotiate all this as someone like that, I'd probably just avoid things for a while.

Also, fuck the government for them not keeping masks compulsory on public transport and in shops for another month or so the cunts.


----------



## mentalchik (Jul 23, 2021)

Still a high proportion of customers wearing masks but it is slowly dropping....younger people seem to be the ones most likely to not wear them and men more than women......still wearing mine....had a bloke (no mask) sneezing everywhere when i served him this morning


----------



## cyril_smear (Jul 23, 2021)

I take it all back; I went in the LS16 Asda earlier and nearly everybody had a mask on.


----------



## moochedit (Jul 23, 2021)

At my work mask wearing has dropped to about 2% (both in the factory and office).

Most shops i have been in this week customers and staff are mostly wearing masks.

 Had a haircut earlier and almost everyone in the barbers was not wearing a mask although the barber that cut my hair did put a mask on when he saw i was wearing one.


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## Supine (Jul 23, 2021)

I spent three hours today on a train sitting next to a bunch of maskless builders who were talking loudly and getting drunk all the way. Today’s train experience is the worst I’ve had since this all began.

I sent the Conservative party a shitty tweet but that only marginally improved my mood. Going to work has now become dangerous.


----------



## xenon (Jul 23, 2021)

Supine said:


> spent three hours today on a train sitting next to a bunch of maskless builders who were talking loudly and getting drunk all the way. Today’s train experience is the worst I’ve had since this all began.
> 
> I sent the Conservative party a shitty tweet but that only marginally improved my mood. Going to work has now become dangerous.



TBF you can't wear a mask and be drinking. Put it on between cans lads please.  


--

I did not wear a mask in the pub tonight, upon entry or between table and bog. I did when going into the corner shop earlier.


----------



## wemakeyousoundb (Jul 24, 2021)

more anecdata
I saw a builder type walking down the road with a mask on today
#notallbuilders

At work most people attending didn't wear one, or other punters in the other part of the pub.


----------



## Plumdaff (Jul 24, 2021)

My anecdata of the week. I'm in Wales, where mask wearing is still mandatory, got train into England on Thursday, in that direction was at almost 100% compliance, coming back we were in the minority. 

Went out last night, all measures in place still, in one bar a group of lads got kicked out as one of them kept refusing to comply. As an English person living in Wales I'm ashamed to say he was saying that he didn't have to because he was English but his mates were telling him to stop being such a dick so it kind of evened out.


----------



## Miss-Shelf (Jul 24, 2021)

Anecdata from north Croydon 
Mask wearing in tesco about 80% same as before 19th july


----------



## scalyboy (Jul 24, 2021)

Saw two builders wearing masks yesterday, getting on the tube on their way home from work #notallbuilders


----------



## _Russ_ (Jul 24, 2021)

I think the fact you need to point it out sort of confirms the overall trend though

Im still wearing a mask when inside with others, but Im beginning to see shops large and small with staff no longer wearing them which I believe is actually breaking the law here in Wales but most people round my area seem to think we are on the final stretch to ending this, thick as shit they are


----------



## l'Otters (Jul 25, 2021)

Actually got told to take my mask off on a train yesterday evening.

Funny thing about it tho, he couldn’t make eye contact whilst saying it. He’d just had a civil exchange with me because we’d both briefly leapt off the train because the automated announcement of the calling points was out of sync with where it was going, then got back on when a human corrected it to say it was calling at all the listed stations. He was making full eye contact and friendly demeanour throughout throughout that bit. I was more concerned about being taken miles past my destination or possibly having to wait ages for the next train, to be bothered making anything of his bare face.

I’d started a reply of “you don’t get to tell me what I wear” but he didn’t hear it - partly because he was still looking at the floor, partly because a gaggle of other anti mask twunts arrived halfway thru my sentence, making a lot of noise.
I moved to a different seat, because 4 maskless blokes bellowing was more of a problem than one maskless bloke silently engrossed in his headphones and screen. Overheard the bellowing blokes regaling one another with their fun times in Trafalgar Square. Wondered what he’d do when we both got off, he’d said he was going to the same station as me. Maybe he decided to carry on to Cambridge or wherever with his new friends.

Edited to add there were about 6 more people in the carriage who did have masks on & being the evening people were a bit more chatty than usual. I wasn’t sure if the group mentality would make the fella feel like having more of a go at me. I wasn’t too worried as I figured the other ppl would probably say something.


----------



## miss direct (Jul 25, 2021)

I wore a mask a LOT at the festival I was volunteering at. All the time when I was on the gate, as dealing with so many people, some of whom got right in my face, didn't feel especially safe (even though it was outside and attendees needed to show either a negative test or proof of being double vaccinated to get in). I also wore it when walking through really busy parts. Nobody reacted or cared. 

I haven't been putting it on to go to the loo in pubs though. Went for a carvery today and the rule was you had to have it on while at the carvery.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jul 25, 2021)

miss direct said:


> I haven't been putting it on to go to the loo in pubs though.


Neither have I; I don't think that's meaningful given that I walk a few seconds to get to the loo past not many people at all. I can see the point as a general rule about going inside buildings but when that's gone I don't see the reason to keep following it in that instance.


----------



## wemakeyousoundb (Jul 25, 2021)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Neither have I; I don't think that's meaningful given that I walk a few seconds to get to the loo past not many people at all. I can see the point as a general rule about going inside buildings but when that's gone I don't see the reason to keep following it in that instance.


fastest infection with Delta so far 14 seconds in a bathroom...


----------



## mx wcfc (Jul 25, 2021)

Went into town yesterday - maybe 10% of people masked ouside.

Barbers - 100% masked, socially distanced seating, name and phone number taken.  
Waterstones - 100% masked (both branches)
WH Smiths - 100% masked
HMV - 100% masked
Poundland - one shopper unmasked.

In the pub, walked in with my mask on and bought a beer at the bar.  None of the staff had a mask on.  Went back for my second pint, forgot to put my mask back on, and I'm afraid it felt quite good.  

Sainsburys today - maybe only 80% - unmasked staff and shoppers.

It's a pretty mixed bag down here.  I'm going to my first indoor gig since March 2019 on Wednesday.  Might be best to take a mask, but I doubt many will be wearing one.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jul 25, 2021)

wemakeyousoundb said:


> fastest infection with Delta so far 14 seconds in a bathroom...


I'd be pushed to infect myself.


----------



## Cloo (Jul 25, 2021)

The majority of people in local Tesco are masked - 65-70% I'd say. Went to a few furniture and other miscellanous shops in some out-of-town sheds and most people masked in those as well.


----------



## scalyboy (Jul 25, 2021)

Sainburys Local just now. Not v busy. Reckon I was the only person wearing a mask. Including staff. Don’t know what their policy is


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jul 25, 2021)

My local Sainsbury’s today which is a student hub,  I’d say 80% masked, which pleases me


----------



## Elpenor (Jul 26, 2021)

One benefit of being immobile is not having to go out much.

Here at Waterloo station concourse the unmasked are approx 50% 

Seems higher on the trains as people are applying their mask as they go through the barriers


----------



## moochedit (Jul 26, 2021)

scalyboy said:


> Sainburys Local just now. Not v busy. Reckon I was the only person wearing a mask. Including staff. Don’t know what their policy is


The sainsbury local i go to in my lunch break almost everyone still wearing masks. Was the same in a big sainsburys store i went into on saturday.


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## mr steev (Jul 26, 2021)

Mr.Bishie said:


> My local Sainsbury’s today which is a student hub,  I’d say 80% masked, which pleases me



It seems to vary a lot from place to place. I went to our big Sainsburys in Wolverhampton on Saturday and was quite shocked to see probably 95% of people masked. All staff apart from one with an exemption lanyard.
I went to a big Tesco store a few miles away in Willenhall on Sunday and I'd say there were less than 20% masked, including about half the staff


----------



## moochedit (Jul 26, 2021)

mx wcfc said:


> Went into town yesterday - maybe 10% of people masked ouside.
> 
> Barbers - 100% masked, socially distanced seating, name and phone number taken.
> Waterstones - 100% masked (both branches)
> ...


10% masked outside is pretty high. I don't see many people round here with masks on outside either before or after "freedom day". The odd person yes but nowhere near 10%. I've never worn a mask outside except maybe when carrying shopping bags out of a shop to my car and my hands were not free to remove it.


----------



## wemakeyousoundb (Jul 26, 2021)

Majority of people in my carriage on the tube tonight were masked, same on the buses this morning.


----------



## Elpenor (Jul 26, 2021)

Out of the four passengers I could see in my train carriage - only one was.

Two florid looking elder gentlemen, and a railway employee on duty travel were not  All would have been double jabbed.

I can’t say I enjoyed wearing one for three and a half hours but I did it as it’s the right thing to do.


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## Sue (Jul 26, 2021)

Went into a supermarket (well wee Coop) for the first time since last Monday. I'd say most folk were wearing masks.


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## NoXion (Jul 27, 2021)

I'm going into the office tomorrow. I will definitely be masking up. I'm also taking the next two days off work, so I'll at least have that if turns out that venturing forth leads to a crappy day at work.


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## nosos (Jul 28, 2021)

It's very odd to find yourself the one masked person in a small supermarket full of otherwise unmasked people.


----------



## gentlegreen (Jul 28, 2021)

In the pickle shop today, only the manager had a mask - under his chin - no other staff or customers.
But I had no probs wearing my FFP2.


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## existentialist (Jul 28, 2021)

nosos said:


> It's very odd to find yourself the one masked person in a small supermarket full of otherwise unmasked people.


It appeals to my defiant side...


----------



## Numbers (Jul 29, 2021)

In Manchester y/day and last night I was rather surprised at how little masks were being worn.  That’s in shops, bars, hotel.


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## PursuedByBears (Jul 29, 2021)

Numbers said:


> In Manchester y/day and last night I was rather surprised at how little masks were being worn.  That’s in shops, bars, hotel.


I was in Preston yesterday and noticed the same thing.


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## Pickman's model (Jul 29, 2021)

gentlegreen said:


> In the pickle shop today, only the manager had a mask - under his chin - no other staff or customers.
> But I had no probs wearing my FFP2.


the chin is particularly vulnerable to covid so should always be kept masked


----------



## Spymaster (Jul 29, 2021)

In Waitrose the other day, I reckon about 80% were wearing them but they were almost all pensioners. Far fewer in Sainsbury. I’m in a restaurant now and there are 23 people sitting at tables with nobody wearing masks, including the staff. There’s someone sitting outside waiting for a takeaway. She wore a mask to come in to order her food.


----------



## Numbers (Jul 29, 2021)

PursuedByBears said:


> I was in Preston yesterday and noticed the same thing.


Where I live in Newham has been a bit lax with mask wearing but at times y/day I was the only person wearing one.


----------



## Maltin (Jul 29, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> I’m in a restaurant now and there are 23 people sitting at tables with nobody wearing masks, including the staff. There’s someone sitting outside waiting for a takeaway. She wore a mask to come in to order her food.


Have you experienced people in restaurants/pubs before sitting there wearing masks? Makes eating and drinking a tad difficult.


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## wemakeyousoundb (Jul 29, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> the chin is particularly vulnerable to covid so should always be kept masked


you mean
don't take it on the chin?


----------



## Lord Camomile (Jul 29, 2021)

moochedit said:


> 10% masked outside is pretty high. I don't see many people round here with masks on outside either before or after "freedom day". The odd person yes but nowhere near 10%. I've never worn a mask outside except maybe when carrying shopping bags out of a shop to my car and my hands were not free to remove it.


If I'm travelling pretty much anywhere I'll put my mask on before I leave, for various reasons. Partly because it's simply easier than on/off all the time, particularly with the type of mask I have, and also it reduces me touching my mask/face. But also because I figure it's some kind of small visual socialisation thing.

All that said, I'm about to run out to the post box about 500m from my flat, and won't bother with a mask for that. Honestly don't know if I would for a longer journey that didn't take me indoors at all.


----------



## scifisam (Jul 29, 2021)

Supermarket today was still around 80% (inc me). Local Co-Op.

One odd thing I've noticed is that parents with young kids seem to be the ones most likely to not be wearing a mask now. Seen a fair few entire unmasked families even on the tube, where it's still mandatory and everyone else was masked up. I highly doubt that, on all the occasions I've seen this, both parents are exempt (though I wouldn't go up and ask them), and their kids won't have been vaccinated either.


----------



## Skim (Jul 29, 2021)

The only place I don’t wear a mask is the gym, where I happily surround myself with grunting, heavily breathing youth to a pumping selection of uplifting pop.

The rest of the time, I mask up to the nines and death-stare anyone in the chilled aisle who dares to get within six feet of me.


----------



## Petcha (Jul 29, 2021)

On the tube yesterday, about 60% wearing masks. They've also taken down all the signs asking people to wear them despite Sadiq saying he was going to keep enforcing the rule on TFL.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 29, 2021)

Maltin said:


> Have you experienced people in restaurants/pubs before sitting there wearing masks? Makes eating and drinking a tad difficult.


Spymaster likes a challenge


----------



## wemakeyousoundb (Jul 30, 2021)

Petcha said:


> On the tube yesterday, about 60% wearing masks. They've also taken down all the signs asking people to wear them despite Sadiq saying he was going to keep enforcing the rule on TFL.


we have video evidence of "the other" corbyn removing those, stop blaming the angelic TFL for this


----------



## Petcha (Jul 30, 2021)

wemakeyousoundb said:


> we have video evidence of "the other" corbyn removing those, stop blaming the angelic TFL for this



Well they've also stopped the tannoy announcements asking people to wear masks. I doubt 'the other corbyn' controls those


----------



## wemakeyousoundb (Jul 30, 2021)

Petcha said:


> Well they've also stopped the tannoy announcements asking people to wear masks. I doubt 'the other corbyn' controls those


That's what HE wants you to think...


----------



## Supine (Jul 30, 2021)

I’m starting to respect the people who don’t need to wear masks but still put one on their chin. Not sure what they are trying to achieve but hey.


----------



## 8ball (Jul 30, 2021)

I was in hospital the other day and there were a couple of ‘under the nosers’ among the staff.  If I’d been in charge of that A&E there would have been harsh words at the very least.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jul 30, 2021)

The nose jobs are basically taking this piss and are worse than people who simply don't wear masks.


----------



## wemakeyousoundb (Jul 30, 2021)

FridgeMagnet said:


> The nose jobs are basically taking this piss and are worse than people who simply don't wear masks.


I suppose you could always use nice nose job as a snidey comment


----------



## iona (Jul 30, 2021)

I saw a new variation recently - mask on over nose but pulled up above the mouth so the wearer could smoke a cigarette


----------



## wtfftw (Jul 30, 2021)

I'm pleased to report that nursery drop off and pick up are still at 95% compliance. The parent bulletin no longer mentions masks so I thought more wouldn't.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jul 31, 2021)

A brief trip to Westfield White City yesterday (where masks are now just "suggested" - not that there was ever full compliance anyway that I remember, though plenty of time to hassle me for taking photos on my phone ) suggested fairly low mask-wearing in the main areas, 10-20% maybe, though for an indoor space it's unusually huge and well-ventilated, and no particular reason to hang around.

Might have been better inside shops. I only went into Waterstones to pick up a book I ordered and all the customers there were wearing masks.


----------



## mentalchik (Jul 31, 2021)

I would say most are still wearing them where i work but it is steadily dropping....


----------



## sideboob (Jul 31, 2021)

FridgeMagnet said:


> The nose jobs are basically taking this piss and are worse than people who simply don't wear masks.



Olympic workers/volunteers on the news today, talking about being worried about covid.


----------



## Babe Rainbow (Jul 31, 2021)

Still wearing mine in shops etc.

Will carry on for a while at least.   See how things go.


----------



## scifisam (Aug 2, 2021)

FridgeMagnet said:


> A brief trip to Westfield White City yesterday (where masks are now just "suggested" - not that there was ever full compliance anyway that I remember, though plenty of time to hassle me for taking photos on my phone ) suggested fairly low mask-wearing in the main areas, 10-20% maybe, though for an indoor space it's unusually huge and well-ventilated, and no particular reason to hang around.
> 
> Might have been better inside shops. I only went into Waterstones to pick up a book I ordered and all the customers there were wearing masks.



When I went to Stratford - aiming for Westfield but defeated because the escalators were broken and there was a queue of, literally, 40 people for the one lift - I went to the old shopping centre instead. In the centre itself, hardly anyone was wearing a mask - I didn't wear one all the time in that part either. Inside the shops, almost everyone was wearing one, inc me.

It's extremely well ventilated and fairly easy to stay away from other people too, unlike in the shops.

My local mini supermarkets are still at around 80-90% compliance. I'm pleasantly surprised. Obviously it will drop over time, but it definitely hasn't plummeted to near zero or even less than half. Maybe for some reason these shops are higher in compliance than others? Like the security guard at the mini Sainsbury's is still wearing his mask, so that probably acts as a reminder and peer pressure.


----------



## scifisam (Aug 2, 2021)

sideboob said:


> View attachment 281449
> Olympic workers/volunteers on the news today, talking about being worried about covid.



They're outdoors.


----------



## spanglechick (Aug 2, 2021)

I’m at a posh spa hotel with my mum and sisters.  Mask wearing is compulsory here in public areas, unless eating/drinking, swimming/fitness classes.    But otherwise very strictly observed.  

Funnily enough given the average age here is fiftysomething, it occurs to me that the most risk is to the staff, the youngest of whom may not have been fully jabbed yet.  

Anyway, when added to the pub where my school went for end of year drinks - a few days past freedom day - it was all strictly table service still.


----------



## Johnny Doe (Aug 2, 2021)

Walked past the Spoons on our High Street quite a few times at the weekend. Busy, and very few masks from what I could see....


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 2, 2021)

Petcha said:


> Well they've also stopped the tannoy announcements asking people to wear masks. I doubt 'the other corbyn' controls those


you say that but...


----------



## wemakeyousoundb (Aug 2, 2021)

Harry Smiles said:


> Walked past the Spoons on our High Street quite a few times at the weekend. Busy, and very few masks from what I could see....


to be fair, pulling your mask off and back on every time you sip from your pint is a bit of a faff
I do it when I work, but in a social situation I didn't, lateral flow test it is for a few days.


----------



## Elpenor (Aug 2, 2021)

Masks about 60% in Sainsbury’s. Was quiet though which helped


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 2, 2021)

wemakeyousoundb said:


> to be fair, pulling your mask off and back on every time you sip from your pint is a bit of a faff
> I do it when I work, but in a social situation I didn't, lateral flow test it is for a few days.


cut a hole in it and insert straw


----------



## xenon (Aug 2, 2021)

Harry Smiles said:


> Walked past the Spoons on our High Street quite a few times at the weekend. Busy, and very few masks from what I could see....



Er, it's a pub, where people eat and drink


Personally I don't bother wearing a mask when going to the loo in pubs now, as it seems pointless and was a faff anyway.

Still wearing them in the shops and will do next time I'm on a bus / train.


----------



## gentlegreen (Aug 2, 2021)

Just did a quick shop in my local Tesco.
Not busy, but pretty well all those under 30 were unmasked - it didn't help that it was similar with the staff ...
Definite age divide - though I watched my 50-something neighbour walk in with her grandchild the other day.


----------



## wemakeyousoundb (Aug 2, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> cut a hole in it and insert straw


this will only work if the straw is sealed to the mask and the other end constantly immersed in the delicious liquid
as I need to use my hands for work I would need a contraption similar to a horse feeding bag to keep the pint in the correct postition at all times
#goes to drawing board#


----------



## Johnny Doe (Aug 2, 2021)

wemakeyousoundb said:


> to be fair, pulling your mask off and back on every time you sip from your pint is a bit of a faff
> I do it when I work, but in a social situation I didn't, lateral flow test it is for a few days.





xenon said:


> Er, it's a pub, where people eat and drink
> 
> 
> Personally I don't bother wearing a mask when going to the loo in pubs now, as it seems pointless and was a faff anyway.
> ...


It was an observation, which I should have clairfied was about people stood at bar and moving about.


----------



## marty21 (Aug 2, 2021)

I have continued to wear masks on public transport,  and got my 1st taxi in about 18 months on Saturday night and wore a mask too. Haven't been in a supermarket yet , my local asks you to wear them when inside the pub.


----------



## nosos (Aug 2, 2021)

On a train earlier where mask rate was down to 10% at the very most. It was also rammed.


----------



## Cloo (Aug 2, 2021)

In supermarkets round me,  mask wearing seems to have gone up a bit since just after 'Freedom Day' - suggests some people went without to test water then saw what majority were doing.  At an English Heritage house on Friday which wasn't very crowded but most people were masked indoors.


----------



## 8ball (Aug 2, 2021)

spanglechick said:


> I’m at a posh spa hotel with my mum and sisters.  Mask wearing is compulsory here in public areas…



The kind of mask which involves cucumber on your eyes?


----------



## nosos (Aug 2, 2021)

What's the best retort to someone who challenges your mask wearing?


----------



## mojo pixy (Aug 2, 2021)

Just say 'Excuse me?' again and again till they curse and go away


----------



## gentlegreen (Aug 2, 2021)

nosos said:


> What's the best retort to someone who challenges your mask wearing?


exaggerated social distance


----------



## Elpenor (Aug 2, 2021)

Say you’re a Freeman of the land and are exercising your rights as an individual


----------



## cupid_stunt (Aug 2, 2021)

nosos said:


> What's the best retort to someone who challenges your mask wearing?



Lower your mask to cough, then say, 'pardon?'


----------



## nosos (Aug 2, 2021)

Good answers, I'm belatedly thinking this should have been a thread


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 2, 2021)

nosos said:


> What's the best retort to someone who challenges your mask wearing?


Pull your mask aside, get in their face and say ‘But <expectorates> I have Ebola’


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Aug 2, 2021)

nosos said:


> What's the best retort to someone who challenges your mask wearing?


If anyone did I think mine would be along the lines of "I'll wear a mask if I want pal, don't tell me what to do". Maybe elaborating into "you the mask police or something?"


----------



## nosos (Aug 2, 2021)

"I read on Facebook that big pharma are funding anti-mask activists because they want more people to get Covid to ensure demand for their vaccines. Do you work for big pharma?"


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 3, 2021)

Eyeball audit of the train carriage we're sat in: 25% masks worn properly, 25% masks worn as chin straps or covering mouth only, 50% no mask. Most of the maskless people are under 25.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 3, 2021)

nosos said:


> What's the best retort to someone who challenges your mask wearing?



Haven't had one of these yet but I doubt I'd be able to come up with anything more sophisticated than, 'go fuck yourself you fucking moron' if put on the spot like that.


----------



## MickiQ (Aug 3, 2021)

Around here mask wearing was still at 90% plus 2 weeks ago when it ceased to be mandatory. There have always been the odd self-centred cunt that reckons the rules don't apply to them but there was also a lot of people who didn't like them but did so because it was the done thing. On our way home from my parents on Sunday, we called at the KFC on the services and rather than go through the drive through as we have been doing these past 18 months, Youngest Q and I went in.
Certainly mask wearing is down to no more than 50% tops now. None of the staff were wearing them (though the screens are still up) and only about half the not inconsiderable number of people going through the services were.
Very varied selection though as many young as old were wearing or not wearing. I don't see anyone wearing them improperly now, I think anyone who did that would have just stopped wearing one now.
It's pretty inevitable the further we get from 'Freedom Day' that mask wearing will drop off, as more and more people stop wearing them, then more people will see others not wearing them and stop themselves.
The things is the vaccines do seem to be working and any upswing in cases isn't being matched by any sudden surges in hospitalisations/deaths and there seems to be an ever growing feeling that it's over (whether or not it actually is) 
BoZo's mad gamble seems to have paid off more through sheer chance rather than any action on his part but there you go.
No-one has challenged me about wearing a mask, there must be something about me that deters the loons,  I've never encountered a single anti-vaxxer in the flesh either.  Every single person I've spoken to about vaccinations as either had it or been in the process of getting it.


----------



## existentialist (Aug 3, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> Haven't had one of these yet but I doubt I'd be able to come up with anything more sophisticated than, 'go fuck yourself you fucking moron' if put on the spot like that.


Having pondered on this, I think my opening gambit is going to be "Why would I want to do that?"


----------



## Elpenor (Aug 3, 2021)

I’ve not really been out and about much in the 2 weeks since freedom day but have worn them in every public place:

Osteopath (they wear them too)
Doctors (they wear them too)
Sainsbury’s (50% wearing)
Uber (driver wore it)
Tube (80% wearing)
Train (50% wearing)
Waterloo station forecourt (10% wearing)
Bus (90% wearing)

I don’t mind wearing masks as I don’t really go anywhere public very often. Maybe I’d feel different if I had to wear them for a long time. The train was 3.5 hours but also sitting down doing nothing.


----------



## miss direct (Aug 3, 2021)

Some of you live in much more cautious/compliant areas than I do. Ubers are 100% and the library is pretty high too, but shops and trams here are around 30% masked only. No one has given me any attitude though. I will cough on them if they do.


----------



## gentlegreen (Aug 6, 2021)

Damn. I finally lost my rag in Aldi 

Quite a few customers came in with no masks ... I got to the scab till and needed assistance so after she'd handled a lot of my groceries I finally asked her if staff were exempt ..

"I'm exempt"

"yeah right" ...

"I'm helping you" 

"does that make up for you giving me covid ?"

The 20-ish assistant threatened to cancel the transaction and send me away with empty bags ...

I feel bad, but she was taking the piss ...


----------



## existentialist (Aug 6, 2021)

gentlegreen said:


> Damn. I finally lost my rag in Aldi
> 
> Quite a few customers came in with no masks ... I got to the scab till and needed assistance so after she'd handled a lot of my groceries I finally asked her if staff were exempt ..
> 
> ...


I'd have taken her up on that. It's going to be her left with a big pile of groceries she's going to have to re-shelve, and maybe she'd get to explain why to her manager.

Some hills ARE worth dying on.


----------



## gentlegreen (Aug 6, 2021)

I said "enjoy your day"  as I left
I hate it as I wore a mask in there right from the start of all this and it could still go pear-shaped and be risky for another 12 months ...


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 6, 2021)

gentlegreen said:


> Damn. I finally lost my rag in Aldi
> 
> Quite a few customers came in with no masks ... I got to the scab till and needed assistance so after she'd handled a lot of my groceries I finally asked her if staff were exempt ..
> 
> ...



She should have told you to fuck off out of the store, you rude cunt.


----------



## ska invita (Aug 6, 2021)

gentlegreen said:


> Damn. I finally lost my rag in Aldi
> 
> Quite a few customers came in with no masks ... I got to the scab till and needed assistance so after she'd handled a lot of my groceries I finally asked her if staff were exempt ..
> 
> ...


Iirc shop workers can wear them voluntarily. Stores may have their own policies


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 6, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Iirc shop workers can wear them voluntarily. Stores may have their own policies



Plus she told him she was exempt. Who the fuck is he to question that?


----------



## existentialist (Aug 6, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Plus she told him she was exempt. Who the fuck is he to question that?


That's a fair point, but I think the level of abuse of the exempt status is bound to have a backfiring effect.


----------



## bimble (Aug 6, 2021)

Went to a pub couple days ago. the young woman pulling pints behind the bar was wearing a mask, 3 old blokes sat on barstools in front of her taking the piss basically saying why don't you take that thing off and give us a smile. wankers.


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 6, 2021)

existentialist said:


> That's a fair point, but I think the level of abuse of the exempt status is bound to have a backfiring effect.



Tough shit. Shop workers aren't required by law to wear them. If on top of that you question someone who tells you they're exempt, that should be that. They absolutely should not have their medical issues questioned by some stranger in a shop. Anyone who has a problem with that should fuck off somewhere else or shop online.


----------



## LDC (Aug 6, 2021)

Like some kind of horrible incoherent fence sitting liberal I agree with gentlegreen and Spymaster, both have a point.

Just remember that this antagonism between people about things like mask wearing is something the government and business have largely created, it's their fucking fault, not that of the shop workers.


----------



## gentlegreen (Aug 6, 2021)

It's a shit show.
It doesn't help that I spend time on Paltalk arguing with insane covitards in addition to following the actual science.
I'm over 60 and it's 3 months since my second AZ and I'm starting to feel vulnerable again.


----------



## Elpenor (Aug 7, 2021)

Restaurant tonight asked us to wear mask from door to table, table to loo etc (but didn’t police it). Everyone seemed to. All the staff were wearing them so fair enough.


----------



## Griff (Aug 7, 2021)

Went to see Jerry Sadowitz last night at the Leicester Square Theatre,  packed audience and maskless. 

Temperatures were taken on entry and that was it really. 

To be honest I don't really care if people want to carry on wearing masks, it's up to them, but in all seriousness when do you think things are going to go back to normal?
Majority of people on here have been jabbed (which is proven to not completely stop transmission), and the majority still want to wear masks.It's never-ending.

It's a genuine question, so don't really need abuse from the usual suspects. 

By the way I'm tested at least once a week, are those who are jabbed tested that much?


----------



## Steel Icarus (Aug 7, 2021)

Griff said:


> Went to see Jerry Sadowitz last night at the Leicester Square Theatre,  packed audience and maskless.
> 
> Temperatures were taken on entry and that was it really.
> 
> ...


I'll be testing twice a week once I'm back at work as well as weekly for the Covid study I'm a part of, and I'll be wearing a mask in indoor public places for the foreseeable future as it's really not that much of a hardship and might help prevent passing on a potentially deadly virus.
ETA double jabbed


----------



## Steel Icarus (Aug 7, 2021)

Griff said:


> Went to see Jerry Sadowitz last night at the Leicester Square Theatre,  packed audience and maskless.
> 
> Temperatures were taken on entry and that was it really.
> 
> ...


Let's flip this then. Presumably you're not wearing a mask now. Why?


----------



## Griff (Aug 7, 2021)

S☼I said:


> Let's flip this then. Presumably you're not wearing a mask now. Why?


Because I'm sitting at home.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Aug 7, 2021)

Griff said:


> Because I'm sitting at home.


"Lol"
I mean "now" as in these post-compulsory times


----------



## Griff (Aug 7, 2021)

S☼I said:


> "Lol"
> I mean "now" as in these post-compulsory times


They're not massively effective, the rules surrounding them have been ridiculous (put them on to go to the pub toilet, take them off when drinking) I don't like them, I'm not sick and find them a constant reminder of the lack of normality. 

As I said, I don't mind what others do and if it makes people feel better, I'll whip one out of my back pocket. 

It's been great going into places and having a good degree of normality again.


----------



## mojo pixy (Aug 7, 2021)

Just say "I'm exempt". Nobody gets to question it, you don't have to prove it. What's the point in arguing? Just do what you like


----------



## Steel Icarus (Aug 7, 2021)

Griff said:


> They're not massively effective, the rules surrounding them have been ridiculous (put them on to go to the pub toilet, take them off when drinking) I don't like them, I'm not sick and find them a constant reminder of the lack of normality.
> 
> As I said, I don't mind what others do and if it makes people feel better, I'll whip one out of my back pocket.
> 
> It's been great going into places and having a good degree of normality again.


I'm glad you're feeling better, but how much does it impact on how "back to normal" you feel to see others taking precautions? I mean a lot of people, myself included, think the situation is very much not back to normal inasmuch as Covid is still very much among us - a colleague and his dad both tested positive last week and his dad has sadly died. They thought the pub without masks was a risky step towards normality worth taking. Obviously that's not worked out.


----------



## Griff (Aug 7, 2021)

S☼I said:


> I'm glad you're feeling better, but how much does it impact on how "back to normal" you feel to see others taking precautions? I mean a lot of people, myself included, think the situation is very much not back to normal inasmuch as Covid is still very much among us - a colleague and his dad both tested positive last week and his dad has sadly died. They thought the pub without masks was a risky step towards normality worth taking. Obviously that's not worked out.


Really sorry to hear that. 
I really have no answer to that, but as I said earlier, at what stage do we get back to normal, away from jabbings/boosters/masks etc. It seems never ending.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Aug 7, 2021)

Griff said:


> Really sorry to hear that.
> I really have no answer to that, but as I said earlier, at what stage do we get back to normal, away from jabbings/boosters/masks etc. It seems never ending.


It does, but I'm thinking we can't get back to normal while Covid is still widely circulating. Wearing a mask isn't a HUGE imposition surely especially when they're not compulsory


----------



## Steel Icarus (Aug 7, 2021)

Seems as though it's not enough for you that YOU can get back to normal though, you want others to be the same. I mean I don't really go anywhere but aren't masks largely requested rather than demanded now? You've got what you want in terms of a return to "normal"?


----------



## Griff (Aug 7, 2021)

S☼I said:


> Seems as though it's not enough for you that YOU can get back to normal though, you want others to be the same. I mean I don't really go anywhere but aren't masks largely requested rather than demanded now? You've got what you want in terms of a return to "normal"?


I've been relatively normal all through this, apart from being able to do normal things like go to the pub, eat out, go on holiday etc. etc.
As I said, I don't care if people want to wear them inside or out in the street, but please don't say it's back to normal. It isn't normality.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Aug 7, 2021)

Griff said:


> I've been relatively normal all through this, apart from being able to do normal things like go to the pub, eat out, go on holiday etc. etc.
> As I said, I don't care if people want to wear them inside or out in the street, but please don't say it's back to nornal. It isn't nornality.


It's still not a normal situation. I don't really know what point you're making tbh. What would you like to see happen?


----------



## Lord Camomile (Aug 7, 2021)

Every now and then I remember that wearing masks to prevent virus transmission has always been the "normal" in some countries.

Not to the current extent, obviously, but it is interesting to consider the cultural aspects of what is "normal" or "reasonable"; they're far from objective concepts.


----------



## elbows (Aug 7, 2021)

Griff said:


> Really sorry to hear that.
> I really have no answer to that, but as I said earlier, at what stage do we get back to normal, away from jabbings/boosters/masks etc. It seems never ending.


If you include covid vaccines in your list of things that represent some kind of unacceptable, abnormal situation, then it will indeed be a never ending situation.


----------



## Griff (Aug 7, 2021)

elbows said:


> If you include covid vaccines in your list of things that represent some kind of unacceptable, abnormal situation, then it will indeed be a never ending situation.



Bit like religion, I shouldn't really talk about vaccinations, zero-covid and every man woman and child being jabbed. So I won't talk about it.


----------



## spanglechick (Aug 7, 2021)

Griff said:


> Bit like religion, I shouldn't really talk about vaccinations, zero-covid and every man woman and child being jabbed. So I won't talk about it.


Are you anti vax??


----------



## Steel Icarus (Aug 7, 2021)

Griff said:


> Bit like religion, I shouldn't really talk about vaccinations, zero-covid and every man woman and child being jabbed. So I won't talk about it.


But what would you like to see happen? What would be "back to normal" for you?


----------



## Griff (Aug 7, 2021)

spanglechick said:


> Are you anti vax??


I've not had any of the Covid jabs if that's what you mean. I don't go around vaccination centres shouting at people not to have them either.


----------



## Griff (Aug 7, 2021)

S☼I said:


> But what would you like to see happen? What would be "back to normal" for you?


I suppose living with it. Promoting healthy eating and fitness would be another good move. 
Pre-March 2020 would be a good indication of 'back to normal'.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Aug 7, 2021)

Griff said:


> I've not had any of the Covid jabs if that's what you mean.


How come? Genuine q.


----------



## Chilli.s (Aug 7, 2021)

Griff said:


> I've not had any of the Covid jabs if that's what you mean. I don't go around vaccination centres shouting at people not to have them either.


Have you had a confirmed case of covid19 yet?


----------



## Petcha (Aug 7, 2021)

Griff said:


> I've not had any of the Covid jabs if that's what you mean. I don't go around vaccination centres shouting at people not to have them either.



Would you use the NHS if you did contract Covid and got ill?

Or just wing it.


----------



## Griff (Aug 7, 2021)

S☼I said:


> How come? Genuine q.


Genuine answer:
The unknown short/medium/longterm side efects of them.

Also picking my mother up off the floor a week after her AZ jab with a bleed to the brain didn't really sell it.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Aug 7, 2021)

Griff said:


> Genuine answer:
> The unknown short/medium/longterm side efects of them.
> 
> Also picking my mother up off the floor a week after her AZ jab with a bleed to the brain didn't really sell it.


That's horrible for you. Was it caused by the jab though? I mean it's obviously tempting to assume so but


----------



## ska invita (Aug 7, 2021)

Griff said:


> Genuine answer:
> Also picking my mother up off the floor a week after her AZ jab with a bleed to the brain didn't really sell it.


Really sorry to hear that....yeah it made me pass out and smash my head too...luckily no more damage than ringing head for a couple of days...next time will know not to get up from bed
Id still take it again though....


----------



## Griff (Aug 7, 2021)

S☼I said:


> That's horrible for you. Was it caused by the jab though? I mean it's obviously tempting to assume so but


This was back in January, we assuned the fall she had caused the bleed, but then the AZ clot/stroke stories started emerging. Obviously I can't prove anything conclusively.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Aug 7, 2021)

Griff said:


> This was back in January, we assuned the fall she had caused the bleed, but then the AZ clot/stroke stories started emerging. Obviously I can't prove anything conclusively.


Is she ok now?


----------



## Griff (Aug 7, 2021)

S☼I said:


> Is she ok now?


A matter of opinion really.
She was in hospital for two weeks with a broken wrist, then was transferred to a care home where she's been ever since.
She was showing signs of mental and physical deterioration ( forgetting things, leaving the oven on, doddery on her feet, she's 87 next week btw), but this just tipped her over the edge. Social Services have monitored her and to be honest she's not going to go home now.

But, she seems very happy. She's well looked after we visit our alliwed once a week visit and she looks well.
Sometimes it's dificult explaining things as she has her Major (Fawlty Towers) look on her face , but we tend to just talk about the weather, cats and foxes.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Aug 7, 2021)

Griff said:


> To be honest I don't really care if people want to carry on wearing masks, it's up to them, but in all seriousness when do you think things are going to go back to normal?
> Majority of people on here have been jabbed (which is proven to not completely stop transmission), and the majority still want to wear masks.It's never-ending.


It's not an unreasonable question and the answer is that I don't know, but wearing a mask isn't an issue anyway. I am not really fussed about wearing masks at this point, I'm completely used to it, and given the stats on how KN95s do also protect the wearer specifically as well as needing everyone to wear them for any effect, I'll continue doing so as long as the virus looks like it's out there to the levels it still seems to be, even though I'm double-jabbed. Vaccines are great but like everything else it's all about building up the percentages. Wearing a mask sometimes does not change how "normal" things are apart from that, well, I'm wearing a mask sometimes.

International travel is the big thing for me and that's still completely fucked up and none of my personal decisions make a difference to that.


----------



## nosos (Aug 7, 2021)

In a Starbucks today, 20% at most of people queuing or waiting for drinks were wearing masks.


----------



## elbows (Aug 8, 2021)

Griff said:


> Bit like religion, I shouldn't really talk about vaccinations, zero-covid and every man woman and child being jabbed. So I won't talk about it.



Does routine testing bother you too? Because you should prepare yourself for the possibility that many people will be asked to take a test for flu this winter too.

Some things arent going back to the old ways because learning to cope with this virus means doing some things differently. And in order to hope to avoid the most draconian measures, other things have to be done instead. Those who refuse to come to terms with this are inviting the harshest of measures during critical moments, and winter offers plenty of potential for those.


----------



## krtek a houby (Aug 8, 2021)

Often wonder how people coped during other times of great upheaval/unrest/conflict, etc?

Thinking about "Spanish" flu, the great depression, WW1 & 2.  Comparatively speaking, it was worse in those incidences. Abscence of medicines, coping mechanisms, food shortages, mass death.

There must have been movements at those times - going against the protocols.


----------



## BillRiver (Aug 8, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> Often wonder how people coped during other times of great upheaval/unrest/conflict, etc?
> 
> Thinking about "Spanish" flu, the great depression, WW1 & 2.  Comparatively speaking, it was worse in those incidences. Abscence of medicines, coping mechanisms, food shortages, mass death.
> 
> There must have been movements at those times - going against the protocols.



There certainly was resistance to black-out measures in the early part of WW2, in England. I don't have links to hand but found them quite easily for myself last summer when I did some reading online about it.

Black-out measures came with costs to businesses, eg having to buy double lots of curtains for doorways of restaurants, pubs, etc, and some loss of trade. Also in the early months certain crimes rose significantly and people felt less safe in the streets after dark. This was before any blitz bombings of English cities so some people felt it was unnecessary and refused to comply. Then the bombs started falling, and at least some of them changed their minds (or got sent away to fight and/or died...).


----------



## elbows (Aug 8, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> There must have been movements at those times - going against the protocols.



In regards the 1918, I believe most of the interesting stories on that front will be glimpsed via whatever is left of local histories, press reports etc. Because I get the impression that most restrictions were decided locally, eg via the local public health boards.

Here are just a few examples of the sorts of little snippets we can find on the internet that point to that sort of thing. A lot of this stuff tends to reinforce thoughts of 'the more things change the more they stay the same!'. But there are obvious differences too, and I think peoples personal perception of the disease and of any restrictions that affected their lives would have largely been more truncated than what we have already experienced in this pandemic. Partly because they experienced restrictions, disruption and a sense of what stage of danger things were at on a far more local basis, which tends to truncate the timescales involved compared to how long the wider emergency would last nationally and globally. But also because there are probably some differences between how long waves lasted in that pandemic compared to this one, for various reasons I wont bore on about all that much right now. We tried to intervene more this time which affected wave timing, are there are likely some other differences in the epidemic dynamics of the 1918 influenza compared to this coronavirus. Not to mention the issues we've had with new variants already (resulting in  merged autumn and winter waves that lasted a long time when combined), and differences in our size of populations and levels of interconnectivity and speed of travel between locations. 



> On Nov. 1, with a slackening in the number of new cases both of the city's daily newspapers reported that the flu was on the wane. *By mid month most of the restrictions had been lifted due to the 'urgent requests of businessmen." Almost immediately the number of new cases skyrocketed* with 44 reported on the lath, 45 on the 20th, 35 on the 21st and 33 more on the 22nd. The death list continued to grow with multiple deaths occurring on a daily basis. On Nov. 23, the same day that three members of the Hancock family of Bank Street died, city health officials banned public dances for the duration of the epidemic.
> 
> By Nov. 26, City Hospital opened its doors to flu patients and the emergency hospital was closed due to an inability to secure help and nursing staff there. It was reported that the funerals of the many victims were forced to be delayed as there were not enough grave diggers available.





> New cases continued to develop into December and city school children were given an early Christmas present when schools were ordered closed from Dec. 6 until Jan. 6th. *Musicians and theatre owners continued their protests against the Health Board ban* which would eventually be lifted on Dec. 21. On the 27th the Tribune, with no new cases reported the previous day, proclaimed in large headlines "BACKBONE OF FLU IS BROKEN HERE."







__





						ELHistSoc -1918 Influenza Epidemic
					





					www.eastliverpoolhistoricalsociety.org
				






> A letter published in the ECHO at the time of the Spanish Flu pandemic, *described "the exclusion of children from cinemas" as "a cruel hardship on poor people"*.
> 
> It said: "In effect it means that they are debarred from having any forms of entertainment owing to their having children.
> 
> "I read only a few days ago in the ECHO the opinion of a medical officer of health that this influenza attacks chiefly adults from 25 to 40 years and certainly if you judge from the number of healthy looking children in the streets today they are fairly free from the epidemic justice."











						Liverpool's last pandemic and how restrictions were finally lifted
					

The Spanish flu infected around 500 million people worldwide




					www.liverpoolecho.co.uk


----------



## krtek a houby (Aug 8, 2021)

elbows said:


> In regards the 1918, I believe most of the interesting stories on that front will be glimpsed via whatever is left of local histories, press reports etc. Because I get the impression that most restrictions were decided locally, eg via the local public health boards.
> 
> Here are just a few examples of the sorts of little snippets we can find on the internet that point to that sort of thing. A lot of this stuff tends to reinforce thoughts of 'the more things change the more they stay the same!'. But there are obvious differences too, and I think peoples personal perception of the disease and of any restrictions that affected their lives would have largely been more truncated than what we have already experienced in this pandemic. Partly because they experienced restrictions, disruption and a sense of what stage of danger things were at on a far more local basis, which tends to truncate the timescales involved compared to how long the wider emergency would last nationally and globally. But also because there are probably some differences between how long waves lasted in that pandemic compared to this one, for various reasons I wont bore on about all that much right now. We tried to intervene more this time which affected wave timing, are there are likely some other differences in the epidemic dynamics of the 1918 influenza compared to this coronavirus. Not to mention the issues we've had with new variants already (resulting in  merged autumn and winter waves that lasted a long time when combined), and differences in our size of populations and levels of interconnectivity and speed of travel between locations.
> 
> ...



Fascinating, many thanks for that!


ETA; got bit confused about East Liverpool & East Palestine (they're in the US, not UK, obviously)...


----------



## krtek a houby (Aug 8, 2021)

...


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 8, 2021)

BillRiver said:


> Black-out measures came with costs to businesses, eg having to buy double lots of curtains for doorways of restaurants, pubs, etc, and some loss of trade. Also in the early months certain crimes rose significantly and people felt less safe in the streets after dark.


Traffic accidents went through the roof too. A significant cause of deaths and injuries were people being unable to see where they should get off buses and trams. Often they'd get carried past their stop and have to try to walk back in the pitch black, only to get hit by another bus or tram which had hardly any illumination.


----------



## farmerbarleymow (Aug 8, 2021)

Noticed the amount of mask wearing has dropped round here when I've been on brief forays outside.  Still wearing mine - don't give a shit if I stand out from the crowd.


----------



## Griff (Aug 8, 2021)

elbows said:


> Does routine testing bother you too? Because you should prepare yourself for the possibility that many people will be asked to take a test for flu this winter too.


i've got used to that now, although I hate it and it makes me gag everytime. 
Went from not ever having a test, much to the surprse of the care-home nurse back in May, to having them at least once a week. Now each care home visit and before and on each day of doing any film extra work.


----------



## LDC (Aug 8, 2021)

Griff said:


> This was back in January, we assuned the fall she had caused the bleed, but then the AZ clot/stroke stories started emerging. Obviously I can't prove anything conclusively.



With associated VITTs. A fall in an 87 year old is _so _much more likely to be the cause of her problems. That and being 87.


----------



## Griff (Aug 8, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> With associated VITTs. A fall in an 87 year old is _so _much more likely to be the cause of her problems. That and being 87.


I guess we'll never know. I was only told on the phone by a doctor from Homerton Hospital about the bleed, and only the broken wrist appeared on her release paper.

But hey ho.


----------



## Sue (Aug 8, 2021)

On a train into London. Everyone's wearing a mask except for pretty much every teen/early 20s man I can see/who's walked past.  😡


----------



## moomoo (Aug 8, 2021)

Far fewer customers are wearing them in my store now. Most of the staff are though. 

What’s it with people who wear them around their chin? They don’t have to pretend to wear them anymore. Either wear them or don’t ffs.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Aug 8, 2021)

I'm going back to work at my college on Thursday. Students and I'm guessing a lot of staff won't have masks. Anyone think it's an idea for me to change from a mask that protects others to one more likely to protect me?


----------



## Supine (Aug 8, 2021)

S☼I said:


> I'm going back to work at my college on Thursday. Students and I'm guessing a lot of staff won't have masks. Anyone think it's an idea for me to change from a mask that protects others to one more likely to protect me?



it’s definitely an idea!


----------



## l'Otters (Aug 8, 2021)

S☼I said:


> I'm going back to work at my college on Thursday. Students and I'm guessing a lot of staff won't have masks. Anyone think it's an idea for me to change from a mask that protects others to one more likely to protect me?


Definitely. They’re not in short supply now aiui.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Aug 8, 2021)

What should I be looking for, then? I've been using the disposable black ones for ages


----------



## elbows (Aug 8, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> Fascinating, many thanks for that!
> 
> 
> ETA; got bit confused about East Liverpool & East Palestine (they're in the US, not UK, obviously)...


Cheers and yeah sorry about that, I was not at all careful about where in the world the quotes were from, I was too giddy with some of the parallels between then and now that the article revealed.


----------



## elbows (Aug 8, 2021)

Griff said:


> i've got used to that now, although I hate it and it makes me gag everytime.


For a while I had high hopes that easier forms of testing such as saliva testing might be proven to be accurate enough to replace the swab-based stuff, but that hasnt happened.


----------



## mojo pixy (Aug 8, 2021)

S☼I said:


> What should I be looking for, then? I've been using the disposable black ones for ages



What you need is an eye cover, basically. With all the to-do about masks, it's rarely mentioned that in order to avoid _catching_ an airborne virus, an eve covering can be as effective as a mask.

Any goggles would do, but full-face visors are very effective, and common eg. in care settings. I still see people in shops with those, either with or instead of masks . They are less restrictive on the wearer than a mask IMO, and I usually recommend them to people who have trouble with masks but want to stay safe.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Aug 8, 2021)

mojo pixy said:


> What you need is an eye cover, basically. With all the to-do about masks, it's rarely mentioned that in order to avoid _catching_ an airborne virus, an eve covering can be as effective as a mask.
> 
> Any goggles would do, but full-face visors are very effective, and common eg. in care settings. I still see people in shops with those, either with or instead of masks . They are less restrictive on the wearer than a mask IMO, and I usually recommend them to people who have trouble with masks but want to stay safe.
> 
> View attachment 282686



If worn without a mask face, they are next to useless, IIRC about 2% protection.


----------



## Supine (Aug 8, 2021)

mojo pixy said:


> What you need is an eye cover, basically. With all the to-do about masks, it's rarely mentioned that in order to avoid _catching_ an airborne virus, an eve covering can be as effective as a mask.
> 
> Any goggles would do, but full-face visors are very effective, and common eg. in care settings. I still see people in shops with those, either with or instead of masks . They are less restrictive on the wearer than a mask IMO, and I usually recommend them to people who have trouble with masks but want to stay safe.
> 
> View attachment 282686



They have been found to offer 2% protection against covid. Almost the same as doing nothing.


----------



## farmerbarleymow (Aug 8, 2021)

moomoo said:


> What’s it with people who wear them around their chin? They don’t have to pretend to wear them anymore. Either wear them or don’t ffs.


That pissed me off too - what's the bloody point if you can't put it over your nose.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Aug 8, 2021)

So...any recommendations? This would be for a mask for being in public spaces at college. In class I'll just distance and ventilate


----------



## Griff (Aug 8, 2021)

An FFP 3 mask apparently is your best bet.


----------



## mojo pixy (Aug 8, 2021)

cupid_stunt said:


> If worn without a mask face, they are next to useless, IIRC about 2% protection.





Supine said:


> They have been found to offer 2% protection against covid. Almost the same as doing nothing.



I think S_I is planning to go on wearing a mask too?


----------



## Steel Icarus (Aug 8, 2021)

mojo pixy said:


> I think S_I is planning to go on wearing a mask too?


Yeah, I want a mask for passing through communal areas


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Aug 8, 2021)

S☼I said:


> So...any recommendations? This would be for a mask for being in public spaces at college. In class I'll just distance and ventilate


Just get some standard white KN95s, you can find them all over the internet. They're reusable for a bit as well. I keep one in my pocket and a couple of spares in my bag.


----------



## mojo pixy (Aug 8, 2021)

S☼I said:


> Yeah, I want a mask for passing through communal areas



Then a 'normal' mask + visor is enough, probably. That's what social care staff work with for general stuff (not with confirmed covid cases, where there's a lot more to wear)

[ EtA, I want to add - a face visor without a mask may not 'be' a lot safer than nothing .. I did know that .. but for some people the point is that it 'feels' safer than nothing, so their anxiety levels are less (even if actual risk to self isn't). I work with people who have learning disabilities and/or mental health conditions, and sometimes 'something small' to mitigate risk and/or fear is better than nothing. We as a species are not only into logic, sometimes we have to accept and work with the fact that we are also into feels. ]


----------



## Elpenor (Aug 15, 2021)

A few data points as I haven’t been out of the house most of the week except for medical appointments

Petrol station - Bagshot 25% of punters wearing - can’t remember staff

Travelodge - Andover - didn’t see anyone wearing one apart from me but I wasn’t lingering in reception. Sign asking you to wear when moving around hotel. Lots of disease vectors children in the hotel it seems.


----------



## Buddy Bradley (Aug 15, 2021)

Was out in Cambridge city centre briefly this lunchtime. Crowds everywhere, impossible to social distance (and nobody bothering to anyway), and not all that many mask wearers, even indoors.


----------



## gentlegreen (Aug 16, 2021)

Another (unplanned) visit to Aldi ... once again I needed assistance on the scab till and none of the staff were wearing masks .. on this occasion I just stood back and said nothing ... it probably helped that I was feeling chilled-ish - listening to music on earphones and being on my way to the park for my daily sunshine exposure ... I was wearing my FFP2 shopping mask ...


----------



## Elpenor (Aug 16, 2021)

All but one person in the doctors this morning was masked up


----------



## Teaboy (Aug 16, 2021)

gentlegreen said:


> Another (unplanned) visit to Aldi ... once again I needed assistance on the scab till and none of the staff were wearing masks .. on this occasion I just stood back and said nothing ... it probably helped that I was feeling chilled-ish - listening to music on earphones and being on my way to the park for my daily sunshine exposure ... I was wearing my FFP2 shopping mask ...



Yeah I noticed similar in my local supermarket over the weekend.  Of the staff on the shop floor either at the tills or stacking shelves I'd say maybe 20% were wearing masks.  

Bar staff wearing masks is as rare as rocking horse shit.

It does make it difficult to be pissed off at people who are choosing to not wear masks in shops and bars when so many of the staff don't either.


----------



## xenon (Aug 16, 2021)

I'll probably get grief for this but in short, as of Friday, I've given up wearing masks in shops. Practically no one else is. Transport, taxis, sure, will and have continued, no problem. 

But with cases unlikely to go much lower for the foreseeable, I've arrived at, well if I don't stop wearing one now, when will I.  It's only a face covering type I've got and yes could protect other people if I'm asymptomatic but when does that line of thinking end. Next year, 2 years down the line, never...


----------



## Aladdin (Aug 16, 2021)

S☼I said:


> So...any recommendations? This would be for a mask for being in public spaces at college. In class I'll just distance and ventilate



An N95 mask. But you'll need one a day at least.
It will offer you very good protection as it will filter 95% of air borne particulates and droplets


----------



## Aladdin (Aug 16, 2021)

xenon said:


> I'll probably get grief for this but in short, as of Friday, I've given up wearing masks in shops. Practically no one else is. Transport, taxis, sure, will and have continued, no problem.
> 
> But with cases unlikely to go much lower for the foreseeable, I've arrived at, well if I don't stop wearing one now, when will I.  It's only a face covering type I've got and yes could protect other people if I'm asymptomatic but when does that line of thinking end. Next year, 2 years down the line, never...



People wear them and have worn them in some parts of the world for years. 

The public health group here are telling fully vaccinated people to continue wearing masks indoors so that the virus does not spread as there is clearly concern that spreading creates new variants. 
This is despite 80% of adults being fully vaccinated and a significant number of teens. They're now vaccinating the 12 to 15 yr olds. No talk of vaccination for under 12s. So primary schools will be areas where covid will start spreading as soon as the kids return to school.


----------



## Badgers (Aug 16, 2021)

Please keep wearing masks indoors everyone 

Our beshitted government really do not care a jot and the reported figures are outright lies. Please do not underestimate how transmissible this Delta varient is. 

Double vaccinated people are not 'invincible' either.


----------



## killer b (Aug 16, 2021)

Badgers said:


> the reported figures are outright lies.


could you give us some more detail on this please?


----------



## Badgers (Aug 16, 2021)

killer b said:


> could you give us some more detail on this please?


Our government lie


----------



## killer b (Aug 16, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Our government lie


sure, but which reported figures in particular are outright lies?


----------



## Badgers (Aug 16, 2021)

killer b said:


> sure, but which reported figures in particular are outright lies?


Almost everything they say is a lie


----------



## Badgers (Aug 16, 2021)

So killer b 

If you need justification that this disgraced government are lying to people  

The reporting of cases, hospitalisation and deaths are manipulated.


----------



## killer b (Aug 16, 2021)

Badgers said:


> So killer b
> 
> If you need justification that this disgraced government are lying to people
> 
> The reporting of cases, hospitalisation and deaths are manipulated.


How much worse than the published figures do you think it is?


----------



## Badgers (Aug 16, 2021)

killer b said:


> How much worse than the published figures do you think it is?


How much do you think they lie?


----------



## killer b (Aug 16, 2021)

Badgers said:


> How much do you think they lie?


I don't know. You're the guy who reckons the figures are lies.


----------



## Badgers (Aug 16, 2021)

killer b said:


> I don't know. You're the guy who reckons the figures are lies.


Yes


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 16, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Almost everything they say is a lie


and the rest is a half-truth


----------



## elbows (Aug 16, 2021)

xenon said:


> I'll probably get grief for this but in short, as of Friday, I've given up wearing masks in shops. Practically no one else is. Transport, taxis, sure, will and have continued, no problem.
> 
> But with cases unlikely to go much lower for the foreseeable, I've arrived at, well if I don't stop wearing one now, when will I.  It's only a face covering type I've got and yes could protect other people if I'm asymptomatic but when does that line of thinking end. Next year, 2 years down the line, never...



People take behavioural cues from others, that much I have to accept. All the more reason not to go along with it though, because you become part of the momentum of moving away from masks, making others feel awkward for still wearing one in shops.

I dont accept 'if not now then when?' bullshit given we arent even 18 months into restrictions and behavioural changes, and that we are in the middle of an unpleasant wave that is not expected to remain like this forever, and that the vaccination programme is still in progress.


----------



## skyscraper101 (Aug 16, 2021)

Badgers said:


> How much do you think they lie?



It's probably more useful to point to actual data that refutes the official numbers, if what you're saying is the numbers are far worse than reported, and knowingly manipulated.

Not saying they're not. But 'the government lie' doesn't really provide any context here. Also its the exact same accusation - used in the opposite way - that many anti-mask/vax lot use to justify their position e.g. folk dying because of unrelated issues, but officially listed as a Covid death because they had it 2 weeks prior - so as to bump up the numbers and scare everyone into getting jabbed.


----------



## zahir (Aug 16, 2021)

If someone involved at some level in producing the figures says they're a lie then I'm inclined to believe them.


----------



## elbows (Aug 16, 2021)

When it comes to official data, I can point out flaws in capacity of test systems, the effect of rhetoric and rules on people bothering to gettested, and various limitations to the official definitions of things that are being measured.

For example I often moan about the 28 day limit used for the headline death figures but there are other death figures available too which we can use to judge the impact of the 28 day limit in the definition used.

When it comes to testing, there are various limitations including that reinfections havent been counted in the headline figures due to the definition used (eople testing positive for the first time). 

I am unable to do much with Badgers vague assertions, their job does not make up for the lack of detail and specifics.


----------



## elbows (Aug 16, 2021)

Plus exact numbers dont actually matter much, compared to trends and overall magnitude. And there are other forms of disease surveillance available which can give us strong clues about trends and trajectories and scale of infection.

We also have percentage positivity rates which give further clues and demonstrate how much testing takes place compared to how much needs to take place to stand a better chance of capturing closer to every case.


----------



## Badgers (Aug 16, 2021)

skyscraper101 said:


> It's probably more useful to point to actual data that refutes the official numbers, if what you're saying is the numbers are far worse than reported, and knowingly manipulated.
> 
> Not saying they're not. But 'the government lie' doesn't really provide any context here. Also its the exact same accusation - used in the opposite way - that many anti-mask/vax lot use to justify their position e.g. folk dying because of unrelated issues, but officially listed as a Covid death because they had it 2 weeks prior - so as to bump up the numbers and scare everyone into getting jabbed.


I work on the Covid project. Testing and vaccinations, plus attempting to educate the anti lot. Figures are logged in a spreadsheet for reporting. So I know what is excluded and what is under reported.


----------



## Spandex (Aug 16, 2021)

elbows said:


> I dont accept 'if not now then when?' bullshit


----------



## Badgers (Aug 16, 2021)

skyscraper101 said:


> It's probably more useful to point to actual data that refutes the official numbers, if what you're saying is the numbers are far worse than reported, and knowingly manipulated.
> 
> Not saying they're not. But 'the government lie' doesn't really provide any context here. Also its the exact same accusation - used in the opposite way - that many anti-mask/vax lot use to justify their position e.g. folk dying because of unrelated issues, but officially listed as a Covid death because they had it 2 weeks prior - so as to bump up the numbers and scare everyone into getting jabbed.


Tbf mate they put a 'protective ring' around care homes while our Death Secretary was fucking his taxpayer funded bird behind his wife's back. 

Shock and amazed that the government lie


----------



## skyscraper101 (Aug 16, 2021)

Badgers said:


> I work on the Covid project. Testing and vaccinations, plus attempting to educate the anti lot. Figures are logged in a spreadsheet for reporting. So I know what is excluded and what is under reported.



That's interesting. Could you give us any ballpark figures? How extensively are the government manipulating the numbers down? Say in percentage terms.


----------



## skyscraper101 (Aug 16, 2021)

zahir said:


> If someone involved at some level in producing the figures says they're a lie then I'm inclined to believe them.



I believe what Badgers is saying. I'm just after some more insight is all.


----------



## Badgers (Aug 16, 2021)




----------



## Badgers (Aug 16, 2021)

skyscraper101 said:


> That's interesting. Could you give us any ballpark figures? How extensively are the government manipulating the numbers down? Say in percentage terms.


Examples... 

The military and emergency services are no longer included. 

Those double jabbed are not included. 

We already know the 28 day plus deaths are not included. 

Also ACTUAL positive cases are not all being added.


----------



## elbows (Aug 16, 2021)

Badgers said:


> I work on the Covid project. Testing and vaccinations, plus attempting to educate the anti lot. Figures are logged in a spreadsheet for reporting. So I know what is excluded and what is under reported.



When I say I cant do much with your claims, its because I'd need to know the details of all the exclusion criteria, and I doubt it would be sensible for you to provide that so I cant take these thoughts further. 

It might not make much difference anyway because I am well aware that narrow definitions reduce numbers, and I already account for the fact that many measures are undercounts. Plus many of the limitations are freely acknowledged, eg when I read a report about hospital infections, the authors usually acknowledge that various sorts of cases will have been missed by their methodologies.

Some of the limitations would not matter so much if our media didnt cling to certain sorts of daily figures at the expense of the broader known picture or alternative counts. The death totals wind me up in particular, since the 28 day limited one is tens of thousands lower than the death certificate ones and I dont even expect death certificates to capture the picture properly either. Nor do authorities, which is why total excess deaths is a measure used in all sorts of circumstances to get a view of an event that other data wont capture properly.


----------



## elbows (Aug 16, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Examples...
> 
> The military and emergency services are no longer included.
> 
> Those double jabbed are not included.



Not included in what figure?


----------



## Badgers (Aug 16, 2021)

elbows said:


> Not included in what figure?


Cases primarily 

It is probably better over pm


----------



## Badgers (Aug 16, 2021)

It is odd how cases are staying level but hospitalisation and deaths are creeping up isn't it?


----------



## pug (Aug 16, 2021)

Badgers said:


>



Fucking scruffy cunt needs to comb his hair.


----------



## Badgers (Aug 16, 2021)

It is only a little lie though


----------



## existentialist (Aug 16, 2021)

elbows said:


> People take behavioural cues from others, that much I have to accept. All the more reason not to go along with it though, because you become part of the momentum of moving away from masks, making others feel awkward for still wearing one in shops.
> 
> I dont accept 'if not now then when?' bullshit given we arent even 18 months into restrictions and behavioural changes, and that we are in the middle of an unpleasant wave that is not expected to remain like this forever, and that the vaccination programme is still in progress.


Yep. I have elevated my mask-wearing to bloody-minded mask-wearing. I'm just waiting for the first twat to chip in with some sort of comment...


----------



## elbows (Aug 16, 2021)

Badgers said:


> It is odd how cases are staying level but hospitalisation and deaths are creeping up isn't it?



I could not describe deaths as creeping up, although lags in data mean I will only notice such an increase later if it happened.

Hospitalisations are oscillating around, I will dig into whether they are creeping up in some ways later, on another thread.

Cases are certainly creeping up.

And it was certainly no surprise that the fall in hospitalisations was much more modest than the post-July 14th fall in cases, because a lot of the biggest drops in cases were in age groups who dont end up in hospital as much.

We know that cases who have also tested positive in the past are not counted in the current data. But I dont currently buy the idea that double-jabbed people who test positive arent being included. Well ones who have caught it in the past and also been double jabbed wont be included, but those with no previous record of infection should. A nice scandal could be made of things if they really tried to exclude vaccinated people from the positive case figures, and I would have expected people who work within that system to complained to the press if that were really the case. Because normally when trying to limit numbers by using narrow definitions, there needs to be some justification of the use of the narrow definition in order to keep people within the system on board, and not get in trouble with others on the outside when they hear about it. What possible justification is there for not including double-jabbed people in the figures for people testing positive? 

Plus such figures certainly show up when we look at new variant technical briefings. The following data isnt anything close to the full picture, just a small fraction, because it only include cases which have met their criteria for being confirmed or provisionally Delta, but still there are plenty of double-vaccinated people in the data:


----------



## glitch hiker (Aug 16, 2021)

Badgers said:


> It is only a little lie though


about fifteen minutes


----------



## Elpenor (Aug 16, 2021)

glitch hiker said:


> about fifteen minutes


Not defending Johnson here but the time his watch is set at proves nothing.


----------



## glitch hiker (Aug 16, 2021)

Elpenor said:


> Not defending Johnson here but the time his watch is set at proves nothing.


At the very least it proves he doesn't know how it works


----------



## Badgers (Aug 16, 2021)

Don't want to sound like a grumpy cunt about this  

Just hard to take when I have seen a lot of the damage first hand, been assaulted and death threats. 

Onwards and upwards eh?


----------



## Badgers (Aug 16, 2021)

Elpenor said:


> Not defending Johnson here but the time his watch is set at proves nothing.


Surprised his flies were up and he had his shoes on the right feet.


----------



## Elpenor (Aug 16, 2021)

glitch hiker said:


> At the very least it proves he doesn't know how it works


It’s certainly debatable if it’s ever adjusted in line with daylight saving


----------



## existentialist (Aug 16, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Surprised his flies were up and he had his shoes on the right feet.


His flies probably weren't up - you were confused by his having his trousers on back-to-front


----------



## elbows (Aug 16, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Don't want to sound like a grumpy cunt about this
> 
> Just hard to take when I have seen a lot of the damage first hand, been assaulted and death threats.
> 
> Onwards and upwards eh?



Yes lets not drive each other mad going round in circles.

And the fact is that the media are shitty at even bothering to tell the stories they could tell with the data that is available, whatever its flaws.

Here for example are the cases by specimen date for England in the oldest age groups, using 7 day averages to smooth the graph. They are going beyond the levels of the peak seen in mid July. I'd call that newsworthy. I chopped off the last few days of data as its incomplete.


----------



## elbows (Aug 16, 2021)

And yeah thats a bit off topic but I go whereever the conversation goes. And I would very much use such a graph to say 'whenever, but certainly not fucking now!' when faced with dull questions and unimpressive justifications about 'if not now then when?'.


----------



## lazythursday (Aug 16, 2021)

I'm not surprised at Badger's assertions - something just doesn't smell right. Cases are high here (around 400 per 100,000) but that's nowhere near as high as it got in the last lockdown, but covid is absolutely everywhere, so many people I know have it right now or in the last couple of weeks, and that is something I haven't experienced in previous waves. And it feels pretty much impossible to escape it now given packed maskless buses etc.


----------



## elbows (Aug 16, 2021)

The thing I dont understand about that view is that the official data shows really horribly high rates! Obviously I dont know what location you are talking about but I'm happy to zoom in to look at particular places data if required.

Its summer and huge numbers of people have been vaccinated and the official data still shows a picture of a huge number of infections.So what smells fishy exactly? The official data is not painting a rosy picture or one that is incompatible with people experiencing a large number of people they know being infected recently.

Plus we know that any any stage the official testing system does not pretent to capture every case, which is why we have other stuff like REACT studies and ONS estimates using random population sampling. I've been meaning to look back at ONS estimated rates over time and compare this wave to previous waves, and I will report back on that once I've had the time to investigate.

The different forms of data are also pretty consistent with each other, eg cases, hospitalisations and deaths are doing the expected things relative to each other. And all these forms of data are showing the expected sort of impact of vaccination.

When looking at things like case heatmaps by age, we can see that even the official test system is resulting in data which shows very large numbers of infected people, quite comparable to previous wave in a whole bunch of age groups, with the picture only being notably different in the older age groups.


----------



## elbows (Aug 16, 2021)

Plus authorities can massage figures a bit without being able to get anywhere close to hiding multiple doublings of cases and hospitalisations. Because when things are growing like that numbers get very huge very quickly, and it is not credible to suggest that such a strain on the hospital system, even in the vaccine era, could be completely hidden away by fiddling with the data. People on the sharp end would shout about it because if for example things had simply carried on doubling past the July 14th high level, utter doom would have arrived by now and these services would have fallen over in ways they have not. The picture is still grim as far as I'm concerned but has clearly not reached the sort of extremes that no authority could hope to sweep under the carpet.

Also its not like the official figures fell and then kept falling. Things fell back from a big spike mid July, but have since wobbled around or resumed a degree of growth. Even when I dont take individual numbers as the gospel, various forms of official data have been more than capable of demonstrating trends accurately, when given enough time.

The government have an unconcealed agenda to try to normalise the situation and get more people to behave as if we werent in the middle of a bad wave. Delta limited their ambitions a bit with that, so they also wanted plenty of people to carry on behaving differently. They've still been able to achieve quite a lot on this front without even needing to twist the data in new ways. Mostly they just needed to rely on a lot of people being fatigued with measures, and peoples sense of what summer should mean for disease, and how peoples attitude to risk changed once they were vaccinated, and how people are affected by media coverage (or non-coverage) and the behaviour of others.

Plus the authorities and their advisors were also surprised by what the data showed in July, and they didnt have a nice tidy explanation or an oven-ready use for the picture it showed. And now there will be concerns about what happens next. If I wanted to create a false picture in order to manipulate people, it would not look like the current picture, or what may well follow in the coming weeks. And if I'd manipulated the data then I'd need a good excuse later, some rationale that sounds vaguely plausible otherwise a stink ends up being created within the establishment when the truth belatedly emerges.


----------



## Badgers (Aug 16, 2021)

One thing that I do note is that the UK government/media is very quiet on the topic of C19 effect on children and also long Covid. It seems to be a big issue/talking point in the US but little here. Some of the doctor's and scientists I follow on social media are sharing a lot of info.


----------



## Petcha (Aug 16, 2021)

I took the tube with my boy yesterday. I sound like a right grumpy old fuck.

It was Sunday morning, yes - about 10am. But going above and beyond not wearing masks, there was a group of lads who were clearly still going from sat night sharing laughing gas on the train, blasting it all out... i mean. what..


----------



## elbows (Aug 16, 2021)

I had a quick look at ONS estimates I mentioned and for England in the winter wave they got as high as a figure of 1 in 50 people, and this July they got a figure of 1 in 65. Seems like a reasonable fit to me, bothe relative to other data and to peoples experiences.


----------



## zahir (Aug 16, 2021)

Badgers said:


> One thing that I do note is that the UK government/media is very quiet on the topic of C19 effect on children and also long Covid. It seems to be a big issue/talking point in the US but little here.



That's very much my impression as well. That there's panic in the US about the effects on children (at least on twitter anyway) while here it hardly gets a mention.


----------



## lazythursday (Aug 16, 2021)

elbows said:


> I had a quick look at ONS estimates I mentioned and for England in the winter wave they got as high as a figure of 1 in 50 people, and this July they got a figure of 1 in 65. Seems like a reasonable fit to me, bothe relative to other data and to peoples experiences.


You might be right - having looked back the local rates didn't get _that _much higher in previous waves. Perhaps there is some explanation regarding many of the people I know being more able than others to isolate in prevous waves (whereas now no-one's bothering) - but there sure is a hell of a lot of it about. Hearing new anecdotes almost every day, often of a whole group of friends going down (and most pretty ill too, though would count as 'mild' in NHS criteria)


----------



## elbows (Aug 16, 2021)

lazythursday said:


> You might be right - having looked back the local rates didn't get _that _much higher in previous waves. Perhaps there is some explanation regarding many of the people I know being more able than others to isolate in prevous waves (whereas now no-one's bothering) - but there sure is a hell of a lot of it about. Hearing new anecdotes almost every day, often of a whole group of friends going down (and most pretty ill too, though would count as 'mild' in NHS criteria)



If we zoom further into the data we'll probably start to notice that whilst superficially similar rates both times, there will be quite a lot of variation by age group and to an extent by region. Depending on the age of your friends, that subset of the population may well be experiencing higher rates of infection this time than previously. The extent to which this will show up in official daily data depends on attitudes to testing etc so isnt fully clear, but for all its flaws the system is often good enough to pick up on some of this detail, just not to the fullest extent.


----------



## elbows (Aug 16, 2021)

And a pretty simply version of that zooming in can be done using the official dashboard. If we select England, one of the regions of England, or individual locations in England on the dashboard, then one of the graphs lower down the page will show cases above and below 60 years of age.

Here is that graph for my town for example, where the July peak in the under 60's was higher than the numbers this system managed to detect at the peak last winter. Not that we should assume the test systems ability to detect cases has remained constant over time.


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 16, 2021)

Griff said:


> Really sorry to hear that.
> I really have no answer to that, but as I said earlier, at what stage do we get back to normal, away from jabbings/boosters/masks etc. It seems never ending.


maybe we’ll never go back to what you consider normal. i bet mask wearing will continue for many on public transports, but that’s just common sense to do so now


----------



## Maggot (Aug 22, 2021)

The Urban vote above at 88.8% cuurently, matches the figures in this article.









						Nine in 10 in UK still wearing masks despite end of Covid controls
					

ONS data suggests some Covid-enforced changes to daily life will remain after pandemic subsides




					www.theguardian.com


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## Elpenor (Aug 22, 2021)

Less than 50% in a farm shop yesterday


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## Mation (Aug 22, 2021)

I went to one of my favourite caffs today. I was the only person in the 30-minute queue (and the only person in the whole place) wearing a mask.

It was very well-ventilated - the whole front open to the street from waist height up.

I was quite encouraged that I didn't feel weird wearing one when no one else was, and that no one seemed to bat an eyelid at me. Doubt I'll go there when it gets colder, though, and they close up the front again.


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## Orang Utan (Aug 22, 2021)

I’m still wearing masks at work and in shops and other indoor public places. But I don’t notice who or who is not wearing a mask any more. Am now relaxed enough to do my shopping without distraction


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## scifisam (Aug 23, 2021)

I've still been wearing them. Not been in anywhere where I'm in for long so I can't manage a mask and it's a habit now.

Local - small supermarkets are still about 80% - even Iceland. The staff are still wearing them, so maybe that's it? 

On the tube, where we're supposed to wear them, the non-wearers are still always young men or women (usually not as young) with children. I can sort of get the young man thing - they tend to be the ones who fuck everything up - but the mums disappoint me.


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## mojo pixy (Aug 23, 2021)

Science Museum yesterday afternoon; it appeared to me that a least a third of people weren't bothering to wear masks. May have been more, actually, and it bothered me a lot because at the door they were specifically asking all arrivals to _please wear a mask to help keep others safe._ Entire unmasked families there were, and I just don't believe, with the best will in the world, that all of those people were exempt.

It was fucking shameful, IMO. The Science Museum, of all places.


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## _Russ_ (Aug 23, 2021)

Its still the law in shops in Wales yet the proportion not wearing including staff is increasing daily, nobody questions it


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## lazythursday (Aug 23, 2021)

Went out hiking yesterday and stopped for a drink outside a country pub - went inside and it was absolutely heaving, people having Sunday dinners etc, really crowded bar, sweaty, hot, zero ventilation, not a single person wearing a mask except me. Now I get you can't really wear a mask when eating and drinking, and it likely seems pointless putting one on to go to the bar, but the place just felt like a humid viral incubator. With rates as they are (and they are pretty high here) I just don't get why you'd feel comfortable in a place like that. And huge contrast to my local pub, where 90% of people are still drinking outside and masking up to go to the bar. 

Or am I being over cautious and should just get on with it, go back to restaurants, go back to the gym and trust in the vaccine?


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Aug 23, 2021)

My local the other day, no masks. Landlord saying, with some justification, that seeing as masks come off the moment you are seated there’s not really much point.


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## Badgers (Aug 23, 2021)

Over cautious? 

The cases are telling a different story


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## Elpenor (Aug 23, 2021)

If I do go to a pub I’d much rather be sitting outside


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## hitmouse (Aug 23, 2021)

elbows said:


> Plus authorities can massage figures a bit without being able to get anywhere close to hiding multiple doublings of cases and hospitalisations. Because when things are growing like that numbers get very huge very quickly, and it is not credible to suggest that such a strain on the hospital system, even in the vaccine era, could be completely hidden away by fiddling with the data. People on the sharp end would shout about it because if for example things had simply carried on doubling past the July 14th high level, utter doom would have arrived by now and these services would have fallen over in ways they have not. The picture is still grim as far as I'm concerned but has clearly not reached the sort of extremes that no authority could hope to sweep under the carpet.
> 
> Also its not like the official figures fell and then kept falling. Things fell back from a big spike mid July, but have since wobbled around or resumed a degree of growth. Even when I dont take individual numbers as the gospel, various forms of official data have been more than capable of demonstrating trends accurately, when given enough time.


Sorry for making you repeat what I'm sure you will have explained already elsewhere, but what did happen in mid-July to change the trends? Like, I would've expected things to be getting worse then, was it just the football being over or what? Or something to do with schools?


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## Orang Utan (Aug 23, 2021)

lazythursday said:


> Went out hiking yesterday and stopped for a drink outside a country pub - went inside and it was absolutely heaving, people having Sunday dinners etc, really crowded bar, sweaty, hot, zero ventilation, not a single person wearing a mask except me. Now I get you can't really wear a mask when eating and drinking, and it likely seems pointless putting one on to go to the bar, but the place just felt like a humid viral incubator. With rates as they are (and they are pretty high here) I just don't get why you'd feel comfortable in a place like that. And huge contrast to my local pub, where 90% of people are still drinking outside and masking up to go to the bar.
> 
> Or am I being over cautious and should just get on with it, go back to restaurants, go back to the gym and trust in the vaccine?


who needs food and drink when you can’t taste owt anyway


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## elbows (Aug 23, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Sorry for making you repeat what I'm sure you will have explained already elsewhere, but what did happen in mid-July to change the trends? Like, I would've expected things to be getting worse then, was it just the football being over or what? Or something to do with schools?



I dont think anyone has a definitive answer. Just end up with vaguer stuff like some combination of end of euros and weather changes and school term ending and the huge number of people self isolating and people behaving cautiously in response to grim news etc.

And the only reason I was telling people not to be surprised if that early peak happened was because of what happened in Scotland. 

In both those nations the school end of term was much closer in timing to the drop in cases than we'd normally expect, not too compatible with the standard view that it would take a bit of time before schools being shut made its mark on infections.

So there isnt really a simple, tidy narrative about what happened. Perhaps what happens next will add something to that picture which makes sense, perhaps not.

Certainly the age groups that made a massive contribution to the overall levels of infection also had the biggest drops at that time, and the picture wasnt so impressive in other demographics. But even without really large drops, cases not continuing to double was quite the achievement in itself. I'll probably ddig into this detail more at some point in future, but I dont know if I will actually have anything really useful to add to the picture.


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## sojourner (Aug 24, 2021)

I hate to admit it, but on the way home from Beautiful Days festival, I gave up wearing a mask in the service stations. Had been horrified on the drive down there to find a max of 5 masked people in rammed service stations, and then again on the way back. It just felt so fucking pointless to be wearing a mask when it really only properly works if everyone does it. Felt worn down by it.


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## maomao (Aug 24, 2021)

Was in Scotland for a few days last week and mask wearing is near universal there. I upset my mum by having a go at a chinstrap wearer on the bus the first day we were there and I literally did not get a second opportunity the whole time I was there. On the train home everyone was wearing masks until we passed Berwick-upon-Tweed and by the time we got to London it was significantly less than half. The only place I've been in London where everyone's wearing them is Great Ormond Street Hospital. Even at the local hospital most people seem to have given up.


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## Teaboy (Aug 24, 2021)

Just been to a local supermarket.  The only people not wearing masks were the shop workers themselves (probably around 80% not wearing them) and two uniformed cops buying their lunch.

🤷‍♂️


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## FridgeMagnet (Aug 25, 2021)

I would say that a large number of people honestly think they don't have to wear one on the tube any more, and would be quite shocked to be pulled up by a copper (though the likelihood of that happening is basically zero anyway). I actually had to check whether TFL had quietly removed it as a requirement for travel (they haven't).


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## weepiper (Aug 25, 2021)

maomao said:


> Was in Scotland for a few days last week and mask wearing is near universal there. I upset my mum by having a go at a chinstrap wearer on the bus the first day we were there and I literally did not get a second opportunity the whole time I was there. On the train home everyone was wearing masks until we passed Berwick-upon-Tweed and by the time we got to London it was significantly less than half. The only place I've been in London where everyone's wearing them is Great Ormond Street Hospital. Even at the local hospital most people seem to have given up.


It's still law here. That said I have noticed an increase in people not bothering - I just moved, went into the corner shop this morning for milk, there were three people besides me including the guy serving in there and I was the only one with a mask. It felt very unwise (not a big space) and I will avoid going in there again. The till had a plastic screen but it looked literally useless as anything other than a spit guard as it wasn't till to ceiling or anything. And when I went in the big Asda yesterday, I'd say mask compliance was still at about 95%, but the people who weren't wearing them were in big family groups and not giving any kind of fuck for distancing. I nearly had a go at a group of late teens (student age) who were pretty in my face and none of them with masks. But decided confrontation would just increase my risk (raised voices etc) so I just moved away (repeatedly!).


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## Epona (Aug 27, 2021)

Just reporting back, the whole mask thing was dead in the water a couple of months ago in East London (in one of the worst hit boroughs and one of the poorest) and now seeing someone wearing a mask is a rarity rather than an everyday thing.

It is almost like the whole thing never happened (except, you know, the mass of deaths).


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## Elpenor (Aug 27, 2021)

I’ll still keep wearing one even if I’m the only person doing so.

I don’t go out very much so it’s not a massive strain to do so occasionally. But I think it’s the right thing to do.


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## quimcunx (Aug 27, 2021)

maomao said:


> Was in Scotland for a few days last week and mask wearing is near universal there. I upset my mum by having a go at a chinstrap wearer on the bus the first day we were there and I literally did not get a second opportunity the whole time I was there. On the train home everyone was wearing masks until we passed Berwick-upon-Tweed and by the time we got to London it was significantly less than half. The only place I've been in London where everyone's wearing them is Great Ormond Street Hospital. Even at the local hospital most people seem to have given up.



Over the last couple of days I've wended down the country and would echo this. Best compliance was the leg started in Scotland. Pretty shoddy/patchy the rest of the time.


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## sojourner (Oct 4, 2021)

sojourner said:


> I hate to admit it, but on the way home from Beautiful Days festival, I gave up wearing a mask in the service stations. Had been horrified on the drive down there to find a max of 5 masked people in rammed service stations, and then again on the way back. It just felt so fucking pointless to be wearing a mask when it really only properly works if everyone does it. Felt worn down by it.


I've started wearing a mask again in shops etc. The fella got really ill with a respiratory virus last week, not Covid as he got tested, but it reminded me that germs are now free floating out there, and given I have avoided getting a cold all this time, I'd prefer to continue that.

Now, I know this has been asked/answered many times, but bear with me - if wearing one stops you (mostly) transmitting particles, surely it must work the other way round too? Or help a bit, at least?


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## Plumdaff (Oct 4, 2021)

We were in Matlock Bath this weekend and it was the first place I had been where absolutely no one apart from us was wearing masks. I can see why you might give up if you lived locally as it seems pretty pointless and alienating. I've been in other areas of England where it was low but this was zilch. Nada. Everywhere we went.

In comparison back in SE Wales, it felt like high compliance again - relatively - although the amount of people not bothering is steadily rising. It's still meant to be mandatory here, not sure anyone's enforcing that.


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## Cloo (Oct 4, 2021)

sojourner said:


> I've started wearing a mask again in shops etc. The fella got really ill with a respiratory virus last week, not Covid as he got tested, but it reminded me that germs are now free floating out there, and given I have avoided getting a cold all this time, I'd prefer to continue that.
> 
> Now, I know this has been asked/answered many times, but bear with me - if wearing one stops you (mostly) transmitting particles, surely it must work the other way round too? Or help a bit, at least?


Yes, I think it does help to some extent in terms of getting it.

I felt very pissed off on the tube the other day, about 75% of people in carriage not wearing - I almost gave a valedictory 'Jesus Christ people, wear a mask, you're supposed to on the tube and it's so bloody simple. And just because the government doesn't care who gets COVID doesn't mean you don't have to care either' speech just before getting off. But I just couldn't be fucked.


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## Tankus (Oct 4, 2021)

Still 100% covered on customers at lidl today, but the staff weren't, which is the first time I've seen that in 18 months


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## elbows (Oct 4, 2021)

sojourner said:


> Now, I know this has been asked/answered many times, but bear with me - if wearing one stops you (mostly) transmitting particles, surely it must work the other way round too? Or help a bit, at least?


The most recent thing I saw in the press about that was about an ONS study that I have not read myself.



> People who never wear face coverings in enclosed spaces are one and a half times more likely to test positive for coronavirus than those who use a mask.
> 
> A report issued by the Office for National Statistics looked at the characteristics of those testing positive in the fortnight ending September 11. While public information has concentrated on the benefits of stopping the spread of coronavirus from a mask wearer, a number of studies have suggested that they also protect the wearer.











						Wearing a face mask does reduce your chance of catching Covid
					

People who never wear face coverings in enclosed spaces are one and a half times more likely to test positive for coronavirus than those who use a mask.A report




					www.thetimes.co.uk


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## Mrs Miggins (Oct 4, 2021)

sojourner said:


> - if wearing one stops you (mostly) transmitting particles, surely it must work the other way round too? Or help a bit, at least?


At the very least, wearing a mask will stop you touching your nose/mouth and that combined with handwashing will reduce your chances of catching something.


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## l'Otters (Oct 4, 2021)

sojourner said:


> I've started wearing a mask again in shops etc. The fella got really ill with a respiratory virus last week, not Covid as he got tested, but it reminded me that germs are now free floating out there, and given I have avoided getting a cold all this time, I'd prefer to continue that.
> 
> Now, I know this has been asked/answered many times, but bear with me - if wearing one stops you (mostly) transmitting particles, surely it must work the other way round too? Or help a bit, at least?


Covid is airborne, so most masks don't completely protect the wearer but they should reduce the viral load at least. Even if it's a basic cotton one or gappy medical one it should help a bit. 

As mask wearing has dropped off I've been aiming to make the mask I wear provide better protection to me.
I double up with medical plus fabric ones when it feels more needed, it is more of a faff, but I've done it for hospitals & longer train journeys.


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## sojourner (Oct 4, 2021)

Nice one, cheers everyone


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## Miss-Shelf (Oct 4, 2021)

l'Otters said:


> Covid is airborne, so most masks don't completely protect the wearer but they should reduce the viral load at least. Even if it's a basic cotton one or gappy medical one it should help a bit.
> 
> As mask wearing has dropped off I've been aiming to make the mask I wear provide better protection to me.
> I double up with medical plus fabric ones when it feels more needed, it is more of a faff, but I've done it for hospitals & longer train journeys.


yes I've been upping the quality of my masks as the quantity of people wearing them has lowered

I'm surprised at how little mask wearing is happening among my very mixed age student group despite being asked to wear them[by me]  and having them provided [by me ]


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## sojourner (Oct 4, 2021)

What sort of mask are you wearing now Miss-Shelf ? I've just been using cloth ones, but double-layered with extra insert, and nose wire.


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## Orang Utan (Oct 4, 2021)

sojourner said:


> What sort of mask are you wearing now Miss-Shelf ? I've just been using cloth ones, but double-layered with extra insert, and nose wire.


I've switched from cloth masks to Tayogo FFP2 masks after my workplace reopened fully to the public and dropped the requirement for the public to wear masks - they make me 'feel' safer - don't really understand the sales bumf about ffp2 but I think they're better than cloth face masks for protecting the wearer. They're much easier to wear all day and breathing feels way less restricted. They also handily fold into pocket squares so you (Ok,I) can look smart while not wearing it as you just keep them in your shirt pocket
You can get them from other places but Amazon is the easiest to consult if you want to have a look:




__





						Loading…
					





					www.amazon.co.uk
				



(experts/nerds - are these as good as they boast?- have no idea what FFP2/N95 etc mean but I know they're supposed to be of a certain standard)


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## sojourner (Oct 4, 2021)

Ah cheers OU, I'll get some of them, they look great.


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## Orang Utan (Oct 4, 2021)

sojourner said:


> Ah cheers OU, I'll get some of them, they look great.


aye, could do with some more colours to go with whatever i’m wearing but they’re great and although technically disposable, i rotate them so each one has at least a week between uses. only one has broken so far.


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## Ron Merlin (Oct 4, 2021)

I've gone from a surgical mask to a single-layer cloth one but now wear FFP3/N99 ones on rotation like OU. I can't rely on others to wear a mask so I just have to protect myself the best I can. I still get the anger on the tube though.


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## Riklet (Oct 4, 2021)

I wear my white FFP2 (shown to work well in some hospital studies) ones anywhere public indoors... I'm still on the original box I bought tbh.. I just use them until they're unseemingly dirty or get damaged which takes a while 

This area is back up over 400 cases on the map and my specific local area is 950 which is super high. So Ive decided I dont care how daft I look or what other people do (went in a pub to order last week and I was the only person), Im going to trust my instincts and do what makes logical sense. I was one of the very few people wearing one at a local art trail event that was in the church with loads of stalls and people buzzing round.

Sure, the door was open but I was amazed how complacent people have become and how easily influenced... if people didnt see others wearing masks when they came in then they didn't bother either. You cant blame people for wanting it to all be over and to forget about masks but I cba to mess around when the UK has the second highest number of cases in the world the past fortnight...


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## Ron Merlin (Oct 4, 2021)

I did a bit of rummaging on masks and found this informative piece. Hope people find it useful.


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## l'Otters (Oct 4, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> aye, could do with some more colours to go with whatever i’m wearing but they’re great and although technically disposable, i rotate them so each one has at least a week between uses. only one has broken so far.


I don't know where they can be bought from off the top of my head but I did see people on the mask sewing groups sharing patterns for covers for respirator type masks. They make them out of a single layer of jazzy fabric, to make the mask wearing more attractive for their rellies (or whoever they're making them for) & extends the life if they're doing the rotation method of reusing.


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## l'Otters (Oct 4, 2021)

Previously I was making two- or three- layer cloth masks, combo's of cotton / polycotton / silk / polyester. I was making hemmed holes for people to put their own filter in, but then saw some stuff about how if the filter doesn't cover the entire of the mask's surface you'd likely just be breathing around it. And I wasn't able to make the filter inserts do that in my own masks. So I stopped bothering to make the gaps. I put a couple of layers of non-woven polypropylene in the masks instead now.


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## l'Otters (Oct 4, 2021)

oooh but facebook is down so I can't go and check out who was making those respirator covers!


l'Otters said:


> I don't know where they can be bought from off the top of my head but I did see people on the mask sewing groups sharing patterns for covers for respirator type masks. They make them out of a single layer of jazzy fabric, to make the mask wearing more attractive for their rellies (or whoever they're making them for) & extends the life if they're doing the rotation method of reusing.


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## wemakeyousoundb (Oct 4, 2021)

omnitex FFP2 for me from medisave uk, come in white, black and pink


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## Miss-Shelf (Oct 4, 2021)

sojourner said:


> What sort of mask are you wearing now Miss-Shelf ? I've just been using cloth ones, but double-layered with extra insert, and nose wire.


I use these for going on london transport as I have a long crowded commute Non Valved FFP3 Mask (Individual) (HY9330) 
I bought 7  of them and use them in rotation so they have time to sit it out until next week 
I vary in what I use in the classroom - some times just a non surgical disposable mask,   other times an FFp2 one 

but I did use the FFp3 maks last week when I was in a basement with no ventilation and it wasn't the worse teaching experience ever and I felt more protected when chatting at close proximity to students


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## HAL9000 (Oct 5, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> I've switched from cloth masks to Tayogo FFP2 masks after my workplace reopened fully to the public and dropped the requirement for the public to wear masks - they make me 'feel' safer - don't really understand the sales bumf about ffp2 but I think they're better than cloth face masks for protecting the wearer. They're much easier to wear all day and breathing feels way less restricted. They also handily fold into pocket squares so you (Ok,I) can look smart while not wearing it as you just keep them in your shirt pocket
> You can get them from other places but Amazon is the easiest to consult if you want to have a look:
> 
> 
> ...



Short Vid about N95



I assume you need a good face seal.   I tried something like this..







I was unable to get a good face seal, when I breathed out, air was going past the nose seal.   So I suspect its only going to be of limited benefit.

I was able to get a good face seal this something like this..






but its more expensive and the elastic straps don't last long.


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## l'Otters (Oct 5, 2021)

you can get replacement elastic quite cheap from any haberdashery. findable on ebay as well, much cheaper per metre the more you buy obvs. even if you only buy 1 metre it's probably cheaper (and a lot less wasteful) than replacing the whole mask.


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## wemakeyousoundb (Oct 5, 2021)

the brand I referred to above comes with 5 back-head straps for tightening the facial fit, the optimum sitting spot for this being at the  (still small) back /top of the head bald patch (the one you can't see but keep gettin nagged about) and also reduces ear strech/pain
[For ear looped models]


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## Cloo (Oct 5, 2021)

I'll confess, now I've started going to some events - theatre, work stuff - I've not been wearing a mask in them because no one else is and you just feel like a lemon and your doing so won't make any difference. Like we went to see Hamilton a month ago, full theatre. Some people, including me, wore them when moving about the theatre but I was surprised that, once sat down, I could a see only two people wearing masks from where I was sat. I figured those around me had, at least, made their call that they were prepared to bear the risk. At the end of the day, it's probably less of an infection risk than my kids being in school all day


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## Voley (Oct 5, 2021)

I'm sat in a caff without a mask on just now because this bacon butty would struggle with an FFP2.

It's beginning to feel okay but it's taken me a while to get here. Still wearing them in shops. Still not comfortable with big gatherings/gigs etc. It'll be a while yet before that feels OK I think.


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## pesh (Oct 5, 2021)

I spent 3 nights on the side of the stage in a sold out Academy venue recently, wore an N95 mask from the moment doors were opened till i left after the shows, a few other crew did the same, nobody else was wearing one. Felt mental being in there at all but bills need to be paid.


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## l'Otters (Oct 5, 2021)

Just got a sausage roll and a coffee from a uni campus canteen out in the sticks. Considered sitting inside to eat but it was quite busy in there and couldn’t see any evidence of decent ventilation. Found an outside bench with cover, which probably exists thanks to the smokers  

If there was no cover and the rain was heavier this would have been a harder decision.


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## Numbers (Oct 5, 2021)

I still wear one if in the supermarket, shops or on the tube/trains.

I’ve been to a few football games tho’ with 1000s of others, singing etc. and I’ve not worn one.  I do there and back but not watching the game or having a beer before or at half time - touch wood I’ve been OK so far.


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## Numbers (Oct 5, 2021)

^^ to add to that, nobody was wearing masks at the football.

Even typing that now is making me a bit para.


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## sojourner (Oct 5, 2021)

Well I've got an indoor gig on 22nd of this month. Me and the other poet won't be wearing masks, not sure about the audience. I'll do a test beforehand, for audience safety, but again, not sure if the audience will.


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## Badgers (Oct 5, 2021)

Numbers said:


> ^^ to add to that, nobody was wearing masks at the football.
> 
> Even typing that now is making me a bit para.


It is odd how your mind works isn't it. 

I would wager that there is little difference between masks in a supermarket or at a footy match. 

Supermarket is indoors but people are more spaced out (compared to footy stadiums anyway). Social distancing in shops is not always easy, but more manageable than at footy. 

The main issue with the footy is the airborne transmission. Although people are outside they are not distanced and there are a lot of very busy bottlenecks through the stadium. The Delta varient is highly transmissible sadly  so if you think about thousands of people all close to each other singing, shouting etc for 90mins plus there is a lot of risk. 

However most masks protect others from your plague but won't protect you 🤷‍♂️ so if you are in among thousands of maskless people you kind of ask what is the point  

Both places have a LOT of touch points but a bit of hand gel and social distancing negates most of that. 


*That ^ is the logic*  however if you put me in a seat at Anfield watching that Salah goal I would risk my life to cheer and sing


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## Numbers (Oct 5, 2021)

sojourner said:


> Well I've got an indoor gig on 22nd of this month. Me and the other poet won't be wearing masks, not sure about the audience. I'll do a test beforehand, for audience safety, but again, not sure if the audience will.


I test twice a week (for work) and was tested once a week in hospital since March, but I no longer go to the hospital. 
I might rethink my mask wearing at games.


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## Numbers (Oct 5, 2021)

Badgers said:


> It is odd how your mind works isn't it.
> 
> I would wager that there is little difference between masks in a supermarket or at a footy match.
> 
> ...


Mate, I've been hugging people left right and center at the footie + you can see spittle come out of some peoples mouths when singing.  I carry hand gel and wash my hands but I also hug people and hold my head in my hands etc.

Thankfully you (will) need to show your covid passport to enter now, well... that's the theory.


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## prunus (Oct 5, 2021)

I wear masks everywhere indoors (public spaces I mean) - shops, cinema, theatre, transport. Compliance by others ranges from about 10% to about 60%, and yes, it does feel a little futile when one is eg in the minority in a theatre full of people cheering and laughing - but then I figure, it’s not exactly much hardship, and it may make some difference for me (I wear well-fitted surgical masks) and even more so to others should I be carrying unknown. So why not?

Main problem really is trying to calmly ride out the rising rage at the stupidity and selfishness of everyone else without going incandescent…


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## pbsmooth (Oct 5, 2021)

I wear one on the tube and train and that's about it. if I go to a local shop I am in and out. and i've been to pubs, cinema, office plenty of times and don't wear masks any more. I am double vaxxed, everyone has been offered it, we have to live with it now, much like the flu. wearing mask to go to the toilet in a pub, say, then taking it off for the two hours you're sat there seems just ridiculous.


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## l'Otters (Oct 5, 2021)

It’s never been just _my_ life I’m risking when I made these judgements on what to do and whether to wear a mask. 

On a personal level the odds are better than eg any of my cev mates / relatives. 

My own health does come into it on some level but idk, I find it weird how so many ppl only frame as a personal risk.


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## Sue (Oct 5, 2021)

crojoe, I was going to the cinema occasionally but people not wearing masks has completely put me off. Why would you not wear one then?


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## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Oct 5, 2021)

prunus said:


> I wear masks everywhere indoors (public spaces I mean) - shops, cinema, theatre, transport. Compliance by others ranges from about 10% to about 60%, and yes, it does feel a little futile when one is eg in the minority in a theatre full of people cheering and laughing - but then I figure, it’s not exactly much hardship, and it may make some difference for me (I wear well-fitted surgical masks) and even more so to others should I be carrying unknown. So why not?
> 
> Main problem really is trying to calmly ride out the rising rage at the stupidity and selfishness of everyone else without going incandescent…



I think the thing with this though, is that 'it's OK to go to the theatre but you should wear a mask' is a pretty arbitrary point to mark as 'ok' on the safe/not safe scale isn't it? I mean it would be much safer just not to go to the theatre and a lot of people are still taking that view, and for most of the last 18 months it would have been seen to be unacceptable, so what's the difference now really? 

Not to criticise as my spot on that scale is probably around the same sort of point I think, but just thinking about how we judge that line, in ourselves as well as others.


----------



## Orang Utan (Oct 5, 2021)

Sue said:


> crojoe, I was going to the cinema occasionally but people not wearing masks has completely put me off. Why would you not wear one then?


I sometimes take mine off for comfort but I only tend to go to screenings that are sparsely attended. My usual cinema is Vue and they have excellent ventilation and recliners that separate people anyway - have not sat directly next to anyone yet


----------



## pbsmooth (Oct 5, 2021)

Sue said:


> crojoe, I was going to the cinema occasionally but people not wearing masks has completely put me off. Why would you not wear one then?



seem pretty well-ventilated, wasn't full, but I understand why you might want to - someone I was with did. 
I am in favour of masks and not an anti-mask loon - and wore one again, as I have always done, on the tube yesterday despite being in the minority - I just think as we all try and get back to some normal, the logic in some situations doesn't make sense to me. unless you've decided you're going to wear a mask forever. you could say, why didn't you wear a mask before all this? always a risk of illness. or will you ever stop wearing a mask? if so, why would you if you're not stopping now?


----------



## l'Otters (Oct 5, 2021)

Have you had a look at the data on current cases and hospitalisations?


----------



## l'Otters (Oct 5, 2021)

Pre March 2020 my knowledge of viruses, transmission, immunity etc, was a lot lower. I’ve adjusted my behaviour according to what I’ve learned. As with many other things in life. Be a bit daft not to.


----------



## pbsmooth (Oct 5, 2021)

well I have now. it is around 20% the peak of January. in January less than 1% of people were fully vaxxed. now 67% are. 72% one jab. everyone offered it. quite a difference.


----------



## Sue (Oct 5, 2021)

crojoe said:


> seem pretty well-ventilated, wasn't full, but I understand why you might want to - someone I was with did.
> I am in favour of masks and not an anti-mask loon - and wore one again, as I have always done, on the tube yesterday despite being in the minority - I just think as we all try and get back to some normal, the logic in some situations doesn't make sense to me. unless you've decided you're going to wear a mask forever. you could say, why didn't you wear a mask before all this? always a risk of illness. or will you ever stop wearing a mask? if so, why would you if you're not stopping now?


Wearing a mask on the tube is the bare minimum. And the thing is, we're not back to normal life yet. I didn't wear a mask before because we weren't in the middle of a bloody pandemic. I'll stop wearing a mask indoors when this one is done.

To be blunt, I think it's really selfish not to continue wearing a mask inside for the moment.  I mean it's not exactly a hardship, is it?


----------



## prunus (Oct 5, 2021)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> I think the thing with this though, is that 'it's OK to go to the theatre but you should wear a mask' is a pretty arbitrary point to mark as 'ok' on the safe/not safe scale isn't it? I mean it would be much safer just not to go to the theatre and a lot of people are still taking that view, and for most of the last 18 months it would have been seen to be unacceptable, so what's the difference now really?
> 
> Not to criticise as my spot on that scale is probably around the same sort of point I think, but just thinking about how we judge that line, in ourselves as well as others.



I try to think of it from a utilitarian point of view, where safety (by which I mean chance of transmission of the virus) isn't the only factor in the utility function - there are others, prime of which I guess are the importance of economic activity and the mental health benefits of a social existence.  Within that context one can still sit where one wants on the continuum, depending on the weighting one gives the factors - however, whereever you sit the wearing of a mask has very little negative effect on the overall function, and definitely contributes to lowering the chance of infection (a negative factor), and so has to have a positive effect overall.


----------



## _Russ_ (Oct 5, 2021)

> will you ever stop wearing a mask? if so, why would you if you're not stopping now?



Umm, Do you think the dangerous phase of the Pandemic is over or something?, of course I'll stop wearing at some point but not when in the middle of a Pandemic..is that hard for you to understand?


----------



## l'Otters (Oct 5, 2021)

Cases in January were fucking insane. We had 1,000 deaths a day at that point. Sure vaccines are having a very positive effect, we’d be completely fucked without them. 

Health services are still under a huge strain.


----------



## pbsmooth (Oct 5, 2021)

Sue said:


> Wearing a mask on the tube is the bare minimum. And the thing is, we're not back to normal life yet. I didn't wear a mask before because we weren't in the middle of a bloody pandemic. I'll stop wearing a mask indoors when this one is done.
> 
> To be blunt, I think it's really selfish not to continue wearing a mask inside for the moment.  I mean it's not exactly a hardship, is it?



but millions of people aren't expected to wear one in the office, pub, restaurants etc. why is that OK?
also - why will the pandemic "end"? the virus won't go anywhere, we will have to live with it like flu. as we did before, which didn't involve masks.
as I said, I am not anti-mask, but I think the time has come to be a little bit more realistic about what can and can't be expected.


----------



## pbsmooth (Oct 5, 2021)

_Russ_ said:


> Umm, Do you think the dangerous phase of the Pandemic is over or something?, of course I'll stop wearing at some point but not when in the middle of a Pandemic..is that hard for you to understand?



well, yes, it clearly is. look at all the stats and the fact we have a vaccine given to everyone who wants it.


----------



## l'Otters (Oct 5, 2021)

Still baffled as to why it’s too much to expect people to wear a piece of cloth over the lower half of their face.


----------



## Elpenor (Oct 5, 2021)

prunus said:


> I wear masks everywhere indoors (public spaces I mean) - shops, cinema, theatre, transport. Compliance by others ranges from about 10% to about 60%, and yes, it does feel a little futile when one is eg in the minority in a theatre full of people cheering and laughing - but then I figure, it’s not exactly much hardship, and it may make some difference for me (I wear well-fitted surgical masks) and even more so to others should I be carrying unknown. So why not?
> 
> Main problem really is trying to calmly ride out the rising rage at the stupidity and selfishness of everyone else without going incandescent…


The same here. I don’t wear them when socialising in friends houses, but in any shop / Petrol station / hotel communal areas. Don’t go out a great deal to pubs and restaurants but when I do where them from the door to my table. 

Considering going to see Bond film but a bit cautious about mask wearing in cinema so probably won’t.


----------



## Orang Utan (Oct 5, 2021)

I will certainly continue to wear them on public transport


----------



## Sue (Oct 5, 2021)

crojoe said:


> but millions of people aren't expected to wear one in the office, pub, restaurants etc. why is that OK?


It's not specially though for pubs/restaurants there are obviously practical reasons why you can't. 


crojoe said:


> also - why will the pandemic "end"? the virus won't go anywhere, we will have to live with it like flu. as we did before, which didn't involve masks.
> as I said, I am not anti-mask, but I think the time has come to be a little bit more realistic about what can and can't be expected.


It's killing/seriously impairing a significant number of people. If you're not anti-mask, why not just wear the bloody thing inside. Seriously


----------



## prunus (Oct 5, 2021)

crojoe said:


> *but millions of people aren't expected to wear one in the office, pub, restaurants etc. why is that OK?*
> also - why will the pandemic "end"? the virus won't go anywhere, we will have to live with it like flu. as we did before, which didn't involve masks.
> as I said, I am not anti-mask, but I think the time has come to be a little bit more realistic about what can and can't be expected.



Everyone (bar a small proportion of people exempt on medical grounds) is expected and explicitly requested to wear one in all indoor public spaces - excepting for obvious reasons while eating/drinking - ie wear one whereever you can.


----------



## Badgers (Oct 5, 2021)

Elpenor said:


> The same here. I don’t wear them when socialising in friends houses, but in any shop / Petrol station / hotel communal areas. Don’t go out a great deal to pubs and restaurants but when I do where them from the door to my table.
> 
> Considering going to see Bond film but a bit cautious about mask wearing in cinema so probably won’t.


I don't go to the flicks for talking pictures much these days. If I really wanted to see one then would probably be a week day early screening.


----------



## pbsmooth (Oct 5, 2021)

l'Otters said:


> Still baffled as to why it’s too much to expect people to wear a piece of cloth over the lower half of their face.



it's not but that's not the debate. it would never be too much to ask - but we're talking about what we think is appropriate now and for the future? or you're saying we just do it forever without thinking because it's not too much to ask? doesn't make sense.


----------



## Sue (Oct 5, 2021)

crojoe said:


> it's not but that's not the debate. it would never be too much to ask - but we're talking about what we think is appropriate now and for the future? or you're saying we just do it forever without thinking because it's not too much to ask? doesn't make sense.


While we're in the middle of a pandemic, just wear the bloody thing. And no, it's not too much to ask except it seems for some selfish folk, it is.


----------



## Voley (Oct 5, 2021)

Badgers said:


> It is odd how your mind works isn't it.
> 
> I would wager that there is little difference between masks in a supermarket or at a footy match.
> 
> ...


Social distancing at non-league level still easy. We had 50 in last Saturday.


----------



## pbsmooth (Oct 5, 2021)

prunus said:


> Everyone (bar a small proportion of people exempt on medical grounds) is expected and explicitly requested to wear one in all indoor public spaces - excepting for obvious reasons while eating/drinking - ie wear one whereever you can.



that's simply not true. think that was advice from 2020?

current advice:

_From 19 July 2021, there is no longer a legal requirement to wear face coverings in indoor settings or on public transport.

Lifting restrictions does not mean the risks from COVID-19 have disappeared, but at this new phase of the pandemic response we are moving to an approach that enables personal risk-based judgments.

While no situation is risk free, there are actions we can take to protect ourselves and others around us.

We expect and recommend that members of the public continue to wear face coverings in crowded and enclosed spaces where you come into contact with people you don’t normally meet. For example, on public transport.

You should use your judgement in deciding where you should wear one. Businesses, including transport operators, can also ask their employees and customers to wear face coverings. You should check with operators of services, venues, and settings that you use._


----------



## pbsmooth (Oct 5, 2021)

so I am following the official gov advice, thanks.


----------



## Badgers (Oct 5, 2021)

crojoe said:


> so I am following the official gov advice, thanks.


They have a good record so far


----------



## l'Otters (Oct 5, 2021)

crojoe said:


> it's not but that's not the debate. it would never be too much to ask - but we're talking about what we think is appropriate now and for the future? or you're saying we just do it forever without thinking because it's not too much to ask? doesn't make sense.


Seems like the problem some have is with the thinking. 

Don’t know about you but I’ve been educating myself about methods to mitigate virus transmission, and keeping an eye on the stats; positivity rates, cases, hospitalisation, deaths, variously at local / national / global levels. Which informs my decision making as to what I’ll do and when I’ll wear a mask.


----------



## pbsmooth (Oct 5, 2021)

I see, so you're following your own advice and your judgement, which is good, while I'm following the official advice and my judgement, which is bad. got it.


----------



## prunus (Oct 5, 2021)

crojoe said:


> so I am following the official gov advice, thanks.



No you're not.  Legal requirement and government advice are not the same thing.  It's no longer a legal requirement, correct, but current government advice is:

​Wear a face covering​
COVID-19 spreads through the air by droplets and aerosols that are exhaled from the nose and mouth of an infected person. You should wear face coverings in crowded and enclosed areas where you come into contact with people you do not usually meet.

Coronavirus: how to stay safe and help prevent the spread


----------



## l'Otters (Oct 5, 2021)

And if it isn’t a lot to ask, then it should not be a problem to err on the side of caution and keep wearing them. Unless it is actually too much to ask.


----------



## Elpenor (Oct 5, 2021)

Badgers said:


> I don't go to the flicks for talking pictures much these days. If I really wanted to see one then would probably be a week day early screening.


I think I will wait till it’s on TV. Not got any days off left.


----------



## _Russ_ (Oct 5, 2021)

crojoe said:


> so I am following the official gov advice, thanks.


Are you a Tory cunt or something?


----------



## pbsmooth (Oct 5, 2021)

no, never. and fuck off.


----------



## pbsmooth (Oct 5, 2021)

prunus said:


> No you're not.  Legal requirement and government advice are not the same thing.  It's no longer a legal requirement, correct, but current government advice is:
> 
> ​Wear a face covering​
> COVID-19 spreads through the air by droplets and aerosols that are exhaled from the nose and mouth of an infected person. You should wear face coverings in crowded and enclosed areas where you come into contact with people you do not usually meet.
> ...



my post was from the same website 

seems some people can't take an opinion that disagrees with their own on a forum thread asking for people's opinions. so I will bow out on this one.


----------



## existentialist (Oct 5, 2021)

crojoe said:


> my post was from the same website
> 
> seems some people can't take an opinion that disagrees with their own on a forum thread asking for people's opinions. so I will bow out on this one.


I don't think it says anywhere that we HAVE to agree with those opinions.

And you've been on Urban long enough to realise roughly which way the wind is blowing...you were always going to get some pushback on your position re masks.


----------



## prunus (Oct 5, 2021)

crojoe said:


> my post was from the same website
> 
> seems some people can't take an opinion that disagrees with their own on a forum thread asking for people's opinions. so I will bow out on this one.



What the government is advising isn’t a matter of opinion… it is simply what it is advising. Which is wearing face masks.

I would note also that in all the venues (shops, theatres, cinemas and so on) I’ve been in there have been notices up with variations along the lines of “please think about our staff and other customers and wear a face covering for their safety”.   What it appears that large numbers of people are doing is thinking about the staff and other customers and their safety, and thinking “nah, fuck ‘em”.   I don’t want to be part of that.


----------



## prunus (Oct 5, 2021)

crojoe said:


> but millions of people aren't expected to wear one in the office, pub, restaurants etc. why is that OK?
> also - why will the pandemic "end"? the virus won't go anywhere, we will have to live with it like flu. as we did before, which didn't involve masks.
> as I said, I am not anti-mask, but I think the time has come to be a little bit more realistic about what can and can't be expected.



When the pandemic will 'end' is a knotty one, because it's fairly clear that it (the virus) is not going away.  However I would suggest that it's probably not a time like now, when we are detecting a million new cases every month; not a time like now when something like 2% of the population is every month catching a virus that can kill, or cause long-term (and as yet not entirely quantified) damage to multiple organs, including the brain and heart; not a time like now when it is unlikely that it has fully explored its potential mutation domain and may well (and in my semi-informed geneticist's opinion is likely to) if given the opportunity evolve further to become fitter and more virulant, which will take a while for us to develop variant vaccines against.

If you forced me to pick a timeframe, I would estimate 30 months from now (ie after the 23/24 northern hemisphere winter season).

Also - you mention flu and "like we did before, which didn't involve masks" - I will probably forevermore wear a mask in public places whenever I have a respiratory infection and have to go out, like is common practice in much of Asia, a practice that was triggered there largely by the first SARS epidemic and the subsequent public health lessons learnt.  Surely we're not so stupid as to fail to learn the same lesson?


----------



## existentialist (Oct 5, 2021)

prunus said:


> Surely we're not so stupid as to fail to learn the same lesson?


If, by "we", you mean British society at large, then I fear you are wrong - we *will* fail to learn the same lesson.


----------



## lazythursday (Oct 6, 2021)

crojoe said:


> I wear one on the tube and train and that's about it. if I go to a local shop I am in and out. and i've been to pubs, cinema, office plenty of times and don't wear masks any more. I am double vaxxed, everyone has been offered it, we have to live with it now, much like the flu. wearing mask to go to the toilet in a pub, say, then taking it off for the two hours you're sat there seems just ridiculous.


Thing is though, those pub toilets are likely small and not well ventilated and perhaps a particularly risky place. 

Not picking on you, but people are completely crazy about where they do and don't wear masks I think. At least 50% of people are wearing them in the giant supermarket near me which is probably not that risky given the size of the place and airflow and lack of crowding, but barely anyone wears one in the little crowded local shop or on the bus and train.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 6, 2021)

Today, went to greengrocer and looking through the window, no masks, then across the road to the fishmonger and again no masks. Frau Bahn and I took our cues from both and followed suit. The around the corner to Waitrose and we both masked up before we’d even thought about it. 90% of punters and 70% of staff masked up. 

That’s the mask report from Southwest Surrey today.


----------



## Sue (Oct 6, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Today, went to greengrocer and looking through the window, no masks, then across the road to the fishmonger and again no masks. Frau Bahn and I took our cues from both and followed suit. The around the corner to Waitrose and we both masked up before we’d even thought about it. 90% of punters and 70% of staff masked up.
> 
> That’s the mask report from Southwest Surrey today.


See I guess i just find it strange that folk decide to wear a mask or not according to what other people are doing. (And it would surely anyway make more sense to wear one in places other people aren't if you're not going to wear one  consistently  .)

Makes me think of when I was a teenager and I'd do the whole 'well everyone else does X!' to my parents. And they'd invariably say 'if they jumped out a window, would you do that too?

(Not having a go at you specifically, Bahnhof Strasse, just musing really.)


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 6, 2021)

Sue said:


> See I guess i just find it strange that folk decide to wear a mask or not according to what other people are doing. (And it would surely anyway make more sense to wear one in places other people aren't if you're not going to wear one  consistently  .)
> 
> Makes me think of when I was a teenager and I'd do the whole 'well everyone else does X!' to my parents. And they'd invariably say 'if they jumped out a window, would you do that too?
> 
> (Not having a go at you specifically, Bahnhof Strasse, just musing really.)




Just feel daft being the odd one out. Went on a school field trip when I was 9, the kit-list said cords not jeans as jeans take ages to dry out. Guess which prick was the only one in cords…? It’s that kind of thing…


----------



## Sue (Oct 6, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Just feel daft being the odd one out. Went on a school field trip when I was 9, the kit-list said cords not jeans as jeans take ages to dry out. Guess which prick was the only one in cords…? It’s that kind of thing…


Yeah but you're not nine anymore...  

Anyway, if you've got a mask on, no-one'll know who you are anyway....


----------



## Elpenor (Oct 6, 2021)

Wearing a corduroy face mask is the obvious answer here


----------



## Orang Utan (Oct 6, 2021)

i really don’t identify with not wanting to stand out! i find that a desirable thing!


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 6, 2021)

Sue said:


> Yeah but you're not nine anymore...


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 6, 2021)

I’ve started getting a bit lax of the mask wearing. I’m double jabbed and when I caught Covid (within the last few weeks)  I apparently spread it to nobody. But yeah, I should continue.


----------



## Orang Utan (Oct 6, 2021)

I forget i’m wearing mine and leave it on when i’ve left shops n that. sometimes don’t realise i haven’t taken it off when i get to my apartment block and look for my mask to put on until i get to my flat door


----------



## zora (Oct 6, 2021)

I'm a bit pissed off at just having come down with my first mystery something since spring last year. I guess it was bound to happen sometime... 
BUT I do feel resentful because I still have greatly reduced personal contacts, have still not been in an indoor pub/restaurant/theatre whatever, so can only imagine I picked it up in my retail job. Mask wearing, as encouraged by the company, started off really high, but is now down to about 50% among customers, and what's worse is the amount of customers who think nothing of coming in for a leisurely browse while having a streaming 'cold' and still don't wear a mask! Argh!


----------



## krtek a houby (Oct 6, 2021)

Tory party conference doesn't appear to be wearing masks or doing social distancing, lots of embraces and kisses.


----------



## Miss-Shelf (Oct 6, 2021)

My colleague has just returned to work after having covid in August  Hospitalised for 2 weeks despite being double jabbed 

Renewed my sense that we are not out of a potential crisis yet


----------



## Badgers (Oct 7, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> Tory party conference doesn't appear to be wearing masks or doing social distancing, lots of embraces and kisses.


Hope


----------



## krtek a houby (Oct 7, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Hope



A New Hope


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 7, 2021)

Tsar wars.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Oct 7, 2021)

Still wearing a mask, carrying sanitiser and staying away from shops.

Last might I realised that I can count my shop visits since this began on two hands. I even use a petrol station where you can pay at the pump, applying sanitiser after doing so.


----------



## kalidarkone (Oct 7, 2021)

xenon said:


> I'll probably get grief for this but in short, as of Friday, I've given up wearing masks in shops. Practically no one else is. Transport, taxis, sure, will and have continued, no problem.
> 
> But with cases unlikely to go much lower for the foreseeable, I've arrived at, well if I don't stop wearing one now, when will I.  It's only a face covering type I've got and yes could protect other people if I'm asymptomatic but when does that line of thinking end. Next year, 2 years down the line, never...


I'm quite happy and prepared to continue wearing a mask in shops and public transport for ever on the off chance that I may be protecting others. 
I dont think wearing one is a big deal at all and I don't give a shit if others are wearing them or not.


----------



## klang (Oct 7, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> Tory embraces and kisses.


----------



## gentlegreen (Oct 7, 2021)

Tesco this morning was probably 70 percent unmasked ...
There must surely be thousands of people repeatedly catching and spreading virus in their upper-repiratory tract - just waiting for their immunity to fail ...


----------



## klang (Oct 7, 2021)

xenon said:


> if I don't stop wearing one now, when will I


I was gonna stop wearing a mask but missed a good moment, so I'm stuck with one now.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Oct 7, 2021)

kalidarkone said:


> I'm quite happy and prepared to continue wearing a mask in shops and public transport for ever on the off chance that I may be protecting others.
> I dont think wearing one is a big deal at all and I don't give a shit if others are wearing them or not.



IIRC mask wearing in public places in Japan has been a thing for a long time.


----------



## krtek a houby (Oct 7, 2021)

Sasaferrato said:


> IIRC mask wearing in public places in Japan has been a thing for a long time.



Sure has. Flu season etc. Also a common courtesy thing. Nobody wailing about their freedoms during the pandemic. Apart from rich/alt right Americans here.


----------



## nosos (Oct 8, 2021)

I've heard more and more people describe being hassled (to varying degrees) for wearing a mask.


----------



## nosos (Oct 8, 2021)

We've been toying with the idea of leaving the rainy fascist island for a while now & if anything tips me over the edge it's going to be mask politics. 

It's just so fucking infantile, for lack of a better word, to be unable to get used to a mild inconvenience in order to protect others. The scary thing is how widespread the misunderstanding seems to be that everyday mask wearing (at least with cloth or surgical masks) is about protecting the wearer rather than the wearer protecting others.


----------



## existentialist (Oct 8, 2021)

nosos said:


> We've been toying with the idea of leaving the rainy fascist island for a while now & if anything tips me over the edge it's going to be mask politics.
> 
> It's just so fucking infantile, for lack of a better word, to be unable to get used to a mild inconvenience in order to protect others. The scary thing is how widespread the misunderstanding seems to be that everyday mask wearing (at least with cloth or surgical masks) is about protecting the wearer rather than the wearer protecting others.


This is how humanity will end. Convincing ourselves that, just because we desire that a certain thing be so, it will.


----------



## Orang Utan (Oct 8, 2021)

I was so desperate to get some fresh air today that I forgot my mask in the rush to get out. So I had to do Boots and Sainsbury’s maskless, with my t- shirt over my nose. Not effective and now the t-shirt is unwearable.  It seemed that there weren’t many masked folk in public when I had the mask on earlier this week, but today when I was didn’t have one, EVERYONE ELSE was wearing a mask, including two dogs.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 8, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> I was so desperate to get some fresh air today that I forgot my mask in the rush to get out. So I had to do Boots and Sainsbury’s maskless, with my t- shirt over my nose. Not effective and now the t-shirt is unwearable.  It seemed that there weren’t many masked folk in public when I had the mask on earlier this week, but today when I was didn’t have one, EVERYONE ELSE was wearing a mask, including two dogs.



You need to wear polo t-shirts. They don’t stretch.


----------



## Orang Utan (Oct 8, 2021)

Magnus McGinty said:


> You need to wear polo t-shirts. They don’t stretch.


aye, I have some, not just today


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 8, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> aye, I have some, not just today



I stopped wearing anything but because the others stretch. No idea how I cause it though but I do.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Oct 8, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> I was so desperate to get some fresh air today that I forgot my mask in the rush to get out. So I had to do Boots and Sainsbury’s maskless, with my t- shirt over my nose. Not effective and now the t-shirt is unwearable.  It seemed that there weren’t many masked folk in public when I had the mask on earlier this week, but today when I was didn’t have one, EVERYONE ELSE was wearing a mask, including two dogs.



Masks are still mandatory in Scotland, however, there seems to be a dropping level of compliance.


----------



## Orang Utan (Oct 8, 2021)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I stopped wearing anything but because the others stretch. No idea how I cause it though but I do.


street fighting probs - all that chest-beating and pant-hooting is very wearing on cotton


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 8, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> street fighting probs - all that chest-beating and pant-hooting is very wearing on cotton



You don’t like people who you consider beneath you. We get it mate.


----------



## Orang Utan (Oct 8, 2021)

Magnus McGinty said:


> You don’t like people who you consider beneath you. We get it mate.


says considerablyharderthanyow.


(he went to Sherbourne, newbies  )


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 8, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> says considerablyharderthanyow.
> 
> 
> (he went to Sherbourne, newbies  )



I’ve never claimed to be tough which would be frankly ridiculous because I’m not.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 8, 2021)

_looks at clock_

(Sorry for nicking your line Pickman’s)


----------



## Orang Utan (Oct 8, 2021)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I’ve never claimed to be tough which would be frankly ridiculous because I’m not.


oh good. cos I thought you were dead hard and proper tidy in a fight. i have no idea how i got that impression


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 8, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> oh good. cos I thought you were dead hard and proper tidy in a fight. i have no idea how i got that impression



Me neither. Where did you get that impression?


----------



## Orang Utan (Oct 8, 2021)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Me neither. Where did you get that impression?


I have no idea.


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## Magnus McGinty (Oct 8, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> I have no idea.



Quite.


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## Orang Utan (Oct 8, 2021)

I lied. It's cos of all the things you say and the way you interact with others.


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## weltweit (Oct 8, 2021)

I am still wearing a mask, in the shops and when I am close to people at work, although others at work are wearing them less or not at all now. 

We had the strange thing recently, Two people tested positive on lateral flow but negative on PCR. That isn't how it was supposed to work I thought. Confusing.


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## Magnus McGinty (Oct 8, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> I lied. It's cos of all the things you say and the way you interact with others.



And you just can’t get enough?


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## Orang Utan (Oct 8, 2021)

No, I have had quite enough, I’ve films to watch. Not as hard as you. I can’t even fight a bollard.


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## Magnus McGinty (Oct 8, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> No, I have had quite enough, I’ve films to watch. Not as hard as you. I can’t even fight a bollard.



Me neither. What film? Have you seen Summer of Soul documentary? I recommend that.


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## Orang Utan (Oct 8, 2021)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Me neither. What film? Have you seen Summer of Soul documentary? I recommend that.


Aye, saw it at the cinema - best concert film ever. I honestly don't know what to watch next as there's too much choice. Instead I'm distracted by reading online about ADHD


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## Magnus McGinty (Oct 8, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> Aye, saw it at the cinema - best concert film ever. I honestly don't know what to watch next as there's too much choice. Instead I'm distracted by reading online about ADHD



My son has ADHD. He’s a beautiful nightmare.


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## Orang Utan (Oct 8, 2021)

Magnus McGinty said:


> My son has ADHD. He’s a beautiful nightmare.


i wish i'd known when i was a child. everthing makes sense now


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## Magnus McGinty (Oct 8, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> i wish i'd known when i was a child. everthing makes sense now



And 70s schooling was grim back then for pretty much everyone (I’m assuming you’re similarly aged).


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## Orang Utan (Oct 8, 2021)

Magnus McGinty said:


> And 70s schooling was grim back then for pretty much everyone (I’m assuming you’re similarly aged).


aye, I was just seen as messy, annoying, late, disorganised, defiant and incapable of backing down and de-escalating. funny that.


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## Magnus McGinty (Oct 8, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> aye, I was just seen as messy, annoying, late, disorganised, defiant and incapable of backing down and de-escalating. funny that.



It was rough so solidarity mate.


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## Orang Utan (Oct 8, 2021)

Magnus McGinty said:


> It was rough so solidarity mate.


btw have you or your beautiful nightmare's mum ever checked to see if you have it? there does seem to be a strong genetic link. On reflection, I reckon my dad has the inattentive part and my mum had the hyperactive part, so I was blessed with both. Often one or both parents have it too. Many get diagnosed these days after their children encounter similar difficulties at school. Though I will qualify this with admitting that when you're recently diagnosed you can end up seeing it everywhere in anyone.


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## Magnus McGinty (Oct 8, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> btw have you or your beautiful nightmare's mum ever checked to see if you have it? there does seem to be a strong genetic link. On reflection, I reckon my dad has the inattentive part and my mum had the hyperactive part, so I was blessed with both. Often one or both parents have it too. Many get diagnosed these days after their children encounter similar difficulties at school. Though I will qualify this with admitting that when you're recently diagnosed you can end up seeing it everywhere in anyone.



She definitely does. Impulsive to the point of not being able to sit down. She decorates twice a year. Very up and down.
Do I have it? Dunno. I was loud but also day dreamer. Not sure that hits the targets.


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## Orang Utan (Oct 8, 2021)

Magnus McGinty said:


> She definitely does. Impulsive to the point of not being able to sit down. She decorates twice a year. Very up and down.
> Do I have it? Dunno. I was loud but also day dreamer. Not sure that hits the targets.


it sure does


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## ViolentPanda (Oct 8, 2021)

kalidarkone said:


> I'm quite happy and prepared to continue wearing a mask in shops and public transport for ever on the off chance that I may be protecting others.
> I dont think wearing one is a big deal at all and I don't give a shit if others are wearing them or not.


I'm getting a bit fed up with fuckmuppets on my local high st telling me I don't need to wear a mask. One particularly thick cunt, when I said I wear it because I've got chronic kidney disease, & non-alcoholic cirrhosis of the liver, plus diabetes, said "but if covid's real, it won't affect your liver or kidneys anyway!". You can't cure stupid!


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## ViolentPanda (Oct 8, 2021)

klang said:


> View attachment 291583


If that makes you heave, what would be your reaction to Therese Coffey & Boris Johnson naked, sweaty & fucking on the conference stage?


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## ViolentPanda (Oct 8, 2021)

nosos said:


> We've been toying with the idea of leaving the rainy fascist island for a while now & if anything tips me over the edge it's going to be mask politics.
> 
> It's just so fucking infantile, for lack of a better word, to be unable to get used to a mild inconvenience in order to protect others. The scary thing is how widespread the misunderstanding seems to be that everyday mask wearing (at least with cloth or surgical masks) is about protecting the wearer rather than the wearer protecting others.


Just don't move to New Zealand, mate. Basically a PAIR of rainy fascist islands.


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## scifisam (Oct 8, 2021)

nosos said:


> We've been toying with the idea of leaving the rainy fascist island for a while now & if anything tips me over the edge it's going to be mask politics.
> 
> It's just so fucking infantile, for lack of a better word, to be unable to get used to a mild inconvenience in order to protect others. The scary thing is how widespread the misunderstanding seems to be that everyday mask wearing (at least with cloth or surgical masks) is about protecting the wearer rather than the wearer protecting others.



Where are you thinking of going to? England is sadly very much not unusual in its mask politics stuff - think it's actually better than some places.


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## l'Otters (Oct 9, 2021)

similarly been wishing I lived in a country where there was a culture of wearing masks as a preventative for spreading diseases.


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## wemakeyousoundb (Oct 9, 2021)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I stopped wearing anything...


 the naked rambler talks amongst us?...


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## AnnO'Neemus (Oct 9, 2021)

I forgot to put my mask on when I went to Aldi earlier. Was half way round before I realised. First time I've been in a supermarket without one since the first lockdown. Hope I don't get Covid and die.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 9, 2021)

In second train of the morning, first train not a mask in sight, not even the guard and SWR has changed their advice to wear one of it is busy. Now on a GWR service and the guard and around 20% of passengers wearing masks, announcements asking you to wear one, full stop. Bloke two rows up with no mask is having a nice little morning coughing fit. I have the arse-end of a nasty cold, it ain’t just Covid, wear a mask is going some way to stopping giving everyone all my lurgies.


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## gentlegreen (Oct 9, 2021)

Aldi late Saturday morning appears to be a mask-free time slot - and quite a few culprits with very obvious co-morbidities 
I was forced to go because I'd accidentally a whole tub of peanut butter outside of the prescribed slot ...
I also inevitably bought nuts so it's unlikely to go well ...

In other news the nose clip has failed for the first time in one of the three FFP2 masks I've been rotating and carrying in my pocket.


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## sojourner (Oct 9, 2021)

Loving my FFP2 masks btw Orang Utan . I got 20 pack so could get the bright coloured ones and they're great - fit comfy but snug, can breathe better in them, and feel safer (again) in them 😎


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## Helen Back (Oct 9, 2021)

I am continuing to wear a mask. Why? Because I like it. So there.


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## Supine (Oct 9, 2021)

Helen Back said:


> I am continuing to wear a mask. Why? Because I like it. So there.



Seems like a good reason!


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## ViolentPanda (Oct 9, 2021)

wemakeyousoundb said:


> the naked rambler talks amongst us?...


II wondered where that wrong'un had gone. It was McGinty all the time!


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## ViolentPanda (Oct 9, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> In second train of the morning, first train not a mask in sight, not even the guard and SWR has changed their advice to wear one of it is busy. Now on a GWR service and the guard and around 20% of passengers wearing masks, announcements asking you to wear one, full stop. Bloke two rows up with no mask is having a nice little morning coughing fit. I have the arse-end of a nasty cold, it ain’t just Covid, wear a mask is going some way to stopping giving everyone all my lurgies.


You're so considerate about this, it's hard to believe you drive a cuntmobile!


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 9, 2021)

ViolentPanda said:


> You're so considerate about this, it's hard to believe you drive a cuntmobile!



I'm an enigma


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## Supine (Oct 10, 2021)

Absolutely packed Glasgow to London train. Only one other person is wearing a mask. People are cunts.


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## Sue (Oct 10, 2021)

Supine said:


> Absolutely packed Glasgow to London train. Only one other person is wearing a mask. People are cunts.


People should be wearing masks at least on the Glasgow to Carlisle section.


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## Supine (Oct 10, 2021)

And now a rail replacement bus. I’m literally dripping in covid


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## iona (Oct 10, 2021)

Supine said:


> And now a rail replacement bus. I’m literally dripping in covid


I was on a rail replacement bus yesterday (on the way to hospital for tests to make sure I don't have covid before I go in for surgery this week). Every seat taken, maybe one in three people wearing masks, windows all closed by the idiots who hadn't brought a jacket in October and a woman right behind me coughing non-stop the entire journey. Fucking despair.


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## nosos (Oct 10, 2021)

Could have mask carriages on trains? _Please_!?


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## l'Otters (Oct 10, 2021)

nosos said:


> Could have mask carriages on trains? _Please_!?


Interesting idea. 
If they got over full it could feel even less safe. 
I'd almost forgotten that smoking carriages used to exist!


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## l'Otters (Oct 10, 2021)

I'd rather there be a carriage for the non mask wearers and the rest of the train be for masks tbh but doubt either is going to happen


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## souljacker (Oct 11, 2021)

I'm staying in a Premier Inn in Manchester at the moment and I am the only person in the whole place wearing a mask in public areas. Went out for dinner last night and again, was the only person in the restaurant as well as the bar I went to after wearing one. 

I think I'm giving up. What's the point if I'm the only one?


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## prunus (Oct 11, 2021)

souljacker said:


> I'm staying in a Premier Inn in Manchester at the moment and I am the only person in the whole place wearing a mask in public areas. Went out for dinner last night and again, was the only person in the restaurant as well as the bar I went to after wearing one.
> 
> I think I'm giving up. What's the point if I'm the only one?



Because if you’re unknowingly carrying it then you could stop yourself from infecting all those other people around you (or at least reduce the amount of transmission).


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## Elpenor (Oct 11, 2021)

souljacker said:


> I'm staying in a Premier Inn in Manchester at the moment and I am the only person in the whole place wearing a mask in public areas. Went out for dinner last night and again, was the only person in the restaurant as well as the bar I went to after wearing one.
> 
> I think I'm giving up. What's the point if I'm the only one?



Have to admit I briefly ventured into a Sainsbury’s cafe at the weekend to see if they were doing cooked breakfasts and I was the only person wearing a mask. One of the reasons I left the cafe.


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## souljacker (Oct 11, 2021)

prunus said:


> Because if you’re unknowingly carrying it then you could stop yourself from infecting all those other people around you (or at least reduce the amount of transmission).



I know, but it just seems fucking pointless if I'm literally the only one in a big busy hotel.


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## l'Otters (Oct 12, 2021)

souljacker said:


> I know, but it just seems fucking pointless if I'm literally the only one in a big busy hotel.


If you are carrying the virus (and it's far easier to assume you might well be than to prove that you are definitely not) the point is to keep it to yourself and not contribute to the climbing death toll. 

Bemused at how difficut this concept seems to be after 18 months to get used to it.


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## gentlegreen (Oct 18, 2021)

Second visit to the pharmacist for my prescription.

First time I queued maybe 20 mins in a well-ventilated shop to be told my prescription wasn't ready - I declined to wait 15 more minutes.
So today I return to another long queue and a shut door with apparently no customers masked - not just the methadone queue but also the queue of customers ahead of me - several of whom clearly fitted the "vulnerable" category ...

so I felt far less safe than in the supermarket even with my ffp2 mask..

I will try again tomorrow.


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## gentlegreen (Oct 19, 2021)

I finally got my prescription at the third attempt by queueing at 08.55 and they were at least only allowing five (mostly unmasked) punters in and then locking the door ...
One of them was a decidedly unhealthy-looking chap in his 70s who had apparently been told more than once that he would be phoned when it was ready ...

Lloyds recently sent me a letter offering a delivery service so I will take them up on it .. but in any case I'm taking it as a sign to taper off the meds to one tablet every 2 days - the side-effects were getting tiring in any case - so I'll have some in hand if there's a problem...


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## clicker (Oct 19, 2021)

Glad you got sorted gentlegreen .


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## gentlegreen (Oct 19, 2021)

Well I feel silly now. Setting up an automated order with the Chemist was very easy.


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