# Who's been to look at St Pancras, then?



## teuchter (Dec 2, 2007)

Went along to have a look at the newly reopened St Pancras today.

I've been keeping an eye on it over the last few years, peering in from the Midland Mainline bit, reading about it and more recently been watching the documentary on the telly about its construction. So I had some idea of what to expect.

I have to say that I would most likely have been a lot more impressed if I didn't know what to expect; if the last I'd known of it was as the dark, smoky, rusting place it was before renovation. Nonetheless, some mixed feelings when I actually got there.

On the one hand, there are a lot of things about it which are really spectacular. Most obviously, the roof structure with its reinstated glazing and repainted steelwork... very beautiful, and today the sun was coming through it and shining onto the brickwork along the east wall of the trainshed. Easily one of the most impressive structures, and spaces, in London, I would say.

And generally, the quality of the purely architectural elements, whether new or refurbished old, in the "old" part of the station seems very good; nothing looks like it's been skimped on unreasonably or boshed together.

The entirely new elements in the "old" part have been inserted unfussily and I think perfectly successfully, in architectural terms.

The extension to the trainshed (at the north end of the platforms: it lengthens the Eurostar platforms to enable them to accommodate the full length of a Eurostar set as well as housing several shorter platforms for domestic services) isn't in my opinion a particularly stunning piece of architecture. Rather bland and also a bit clunkily detailed, especially the roof which has obviously been designed to let light through (it is made up from a series of angled fins) yet doesn't really succeed in doing this and ends up looking heavy and dark. However, it doesn't bother me as much as it did when I first saw it (before the main station was reopened) because it doesn't really impact on your experience of the main trainshed, mainly because its roof has been kept low enough not to be visible through the big arch at the north end.

My main quibbles are to do with Eurostar's claims that it is the "greatest railway station in Europe". The railway station seems almost incidental to it, in a way. It might more accurately be described as Europe's grandest shopping centre, with trains attached. 

It just doesn't really feel like a train station. Yes, you can see the Eurostars, but they are behind glass security barriers and are to be observed more like animals in a zoo. Almost all of the "train station" stuff - ticket halls, waiting rooms, and suchlike, is buried away in the undercroft. The truly great stations of the world are filled with the activity of travel - people waiting, meeting, queuing, running, snoozing ... destination boards, luggage trolleys and all the rest of it. This feels like it's missing from St Pancras.

I know that's partly to do with the way Eurostar works and the security concerns that access has to be more controlled than in most stations. But comparing St Pancras to Gare du Nord... well, the latter just feels much more like a real train station.

It's telling that the domestic trains have been relegated to the far end of the station, and banished from the Barlow shed altogether in favour of a double-height void (where the platforms could have been) given over to retail space. Well, perhaps that's just how the economics add up, and perhaps it wouldn't have been viable to renovate the building to such a standard without doing this. But it's a bit sad nonetheless.

The building is currently marred by various bits of tacky Christmas marketing tat ... including a giant and fairly ugly "advent calender" (sponsored by Boots?) right across the arch at the South end. At least they have been kind enough to cut a hole in it for the rather lovely giant clock.

Oh yes, the "world's longest champagne bar": well, it's OK but nothing special. Just a long line of people drinking champagne. I thought it was going to be something a bit special, but it's not really.

And then there is that statue. I wont say any more as there are enough derisory comments here and here already.

So all in all then, a spectacular and beautiful building (although it is mainly the Victorians we have to thank for this), and definitely one of London's best and grandest spaces. And it's really good to see this kind of investment being put into rail infrastructure for once, even though one gets the feeling that the investment hasn't been put in entirely for the benefit of the railway bit of it. For my money, it's not London's best _railway station_ though - that honour remains with Paddington.

By the way, it might be open, but it's by no means complete. Still an awful lot of hoarding around the place.

I'd be interested to hear what others make of it.....


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Dec 2, 2007)

No.  I watched the series that's just finished though.

May take my b/f to see it as he's a brickie


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## teuchter (Dec 2, 2007)

Some nice new (in style of the old) brickwork on the West side....


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Dec 2, 2007)

teuchter said:
			
		

> Some nice new (in style of the old) brickwork on the West side....


 

I wouldn't know where west was but my b/f could happily sit there and talk about bricks for quite a while


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## g force (Dec 2, 2007)

I went...thought it was shite. I agree it doesn't feel like a train station particularly...assume it's security designed in.

The statue that's meant to be a "centrepiece" is bollocks because it should have been the station itself that's the centrepiece and takes people breath away. IMO they failed because they seemed more interested in the positioning of the shops to get some money.


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## Prince Rhyus (Dec 2, 2007)

g force said:
			
		

> I went...thought it was shite. I agree it doesn't feel like a train station particularly...assume it's security designed in.
> 
> The statue that's meant to be a "centrepiece" is bollocks because it should have been the station itself that's the centrepiece and takes people breath away. IMO they failed because they seemed more interested in the positioning of the shops to get some money.



And that's the really sad thing about many of the stations these days. They are becoming more like shopping centres with train stations attached to them. There are big plans to completely do up the area around Cambridge's railway station and my fear is that the £700million+ redevelopment is going to go down the same route rather than being something much more holistic to serve both the neighbourhood, the city and the region. 

Having lots of clone shops really doesn't do it for me.


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## teuchter (Dec 2, 2007)

i don't think there's anything wrong per se about combining train stations with retail. It's certainly preferable to having a neglected station that no-one uses along with an out-of-town shopping centre that everyone drives to. This is the situation in many places. Anything that centres activity around public transport is good if you ask me.

It's just a shame when this approach is applied to the extent where the train station becomes subsiduary to the other activities thus defeating the purpose somewhat.


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## lang rabbie (Dec 2, 2007)

Minnie_the_Minx said:
			
		

> I wouldn't know where west was but my b/f could happily sit there and talk about bricks for quite a while



He'll probably like the gothic brickwork in the entrance bit between the new Underground ticket hall and the "Arcade" of shops at undercroft level.

It took me a couple of minutes to convince myself that it is all brand new.


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## lang rabbie (Dec 2, 2007)

teuchter said:
			
		

> It just doesn't really feel like a train station. Yes, you can see the Eurostars, but they are behind glass security barriers and are to be observed more like animals in a zoo. Almost all of the "train station" stuff - ticket halls, waiting rooms, and suchlike, is buried away in the undercroft.
> 
> I know that's partly to do with the way Eurostar works and the security concerns that access has to be more controlled than in most stations. But comparing St Pancras to Gare du Nord... well, the latter just feels much more like a real train station.
> 
> It's telling that the domestic trains have been relegated to the far end of the station, and banished from the Barlow shed altogether in favour of a double-height void (where the platforms could have been) given over to retail space. Well, perhaps that's just how the economics add up, and perhaps it wouldn't have been viable to renovate the building to such a standard without doing this. But it's a bit sad nonetheless.



It is a real shame that the station no longer works as smoothly and simply for trains to the Midlands as it used to.  As John Betjeman noted, despite all the gothic trimmings, the orginal plan was very practical - get dropped off in a cab, stroll into Booking Office to buy a ticket then a short walk to your train.   

That tunnel into which cabs used to disappear before emerging into Midland Road always had a strange Alice in Wonderland rabbithole feeling, which I will miss.   On the other hand, only a few sad fans of Piranesi's _Carceri_ like me will probably mourn the loss of that overcrowded former tunnel to the Tube.

One other saving grace of the new layout is that [when it finally opens next weekend removing some of those hoardings], the escalator for the Thameslink will come out next to the domestic ticket office - removing the need for the yomp from Kings Cross Thameslink.

However, the lack of any waiting facilities for domestic passengers at platform level - apart from a few tables inside Camden foods - is a scandal.
[Apparently the first class passengers have to slum it without a lounge until next year as well.]


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## catrina (Dec 2, 2007)

Grand Central Station in New York is a real beauty.

I haven't been inside St. Pancras yet. The stupid thing has been under works and messing up my bus route into work for the entire duration of my time in the UK (over 7 years). I don't know why they have to go and make luxury flats out of it, as well, seems kind of obnoxious to me.

I'll get the chance to have a gander this week and will report back.


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## g force (Dec 2, 2007)

teuchter said:
			
		

> i don't think there's anything wrong per se about combining train stations with retail. It's certainly preferable to having a neglected station that no-one uses along with an out-of-town shopping centre that everyone drives to. This is the situation in many places. Anything that centres activity around public transport is good if you ask me.
> 
> It's just a shame when this approach is applied to the extent where the train station becomes subsiduary to the other activities thus defeating the purpose somewhat.



Indeed...I've got no issue with retail..hell I always need a coffee if i'm catching an early train but it's the same old crap plus a few up market bits. And the "longest champers bar" is a pathetic joke.


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## marty21 (Dec 2, 2007)

i was there this morning, had a sausage sandwich and a coffee at baby betjiman, was getting a train from kings x thameslink, but popped in to have a look, noticed that all thameslink trains will be leaving from st pancras next week, not sure what is happening to the thameslink station, which is a bit miserable tbh, st pancras is enormous, but not quite finished, a load of shop units have not yet been completed, that long bar is a bit rubbish, it's a small champagne bar with a long load of tables stretching along a platform - i wanted a long bar 

apart from that, it looks great looking up at the massive arch, still some scaffolding outside, so not quite finished yet, the retail units, well they wouldn't drag me there, they are just shops


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Dec 2, 2007)

lang rabbie said:
			
		

> He'll probably like the gothic brickwork in the entrance bit between the new Underground ticket hall and the "Arcade" of shops at undercroft level.
> 
> It took me a couple of minutes to convince myself that it is all brand new.


 

Can't wait.  He's already been asking me what's wrong with my M&S Christmas Tree Advent Calendar from a brickies' point of view


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## WouldBe (Dec 2, 2007)

Minnie_the_Minx said:
			
		

> I wouldn't know where west was but my b/f could happily sit there and talk about bricks for quite a while


It's the left hand wall as your looking out along the tracks.


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## teuchter (Dec 2, 2007)

WouldBe said:
			
		

> It's the left hand wall as your looking out along the tracks.



Alternatively, face East and it's behind you.


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## laptop (Dec 2, 2007)

The blue on the ironwork isn't right. I think the Victorians would have had it a tad gaudier.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Dec 2, 2007)

teuchter said:
			
		

> Alternatively, face East and it's behind you.


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## WouldBe (Dec 2, 2007)

teuchter said:
			
		

> Some nice new (in style of the old) brickwork on the West side....


It's years since I was at St P. What was the west wall like?


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## laptop (Dec 2, 2007)

WouldBe said:
			
		

> It's years since I was at St P. What was the west wall like?



As I recall it, on the inside it was original brickwork, in good nick - since it was next to a carriage siding, not a platform, so no-one had burrowed kiosks into it.


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## lang rabbie (Dec 2, 2007)

laptop said:
			
		

> The blue on the ironwork isn't right. I think the Victorians would have had it a tad gaudier.



I think everyone is a bit shocked by the "Barlow blue" when they first see it.   

It was hopelessly impractical because it got covered in smoke so quickly, but it is the designer's original vision which can finally be maintained now that only electric trains come into the trainshed.




> Eighteen coats of paint have been stripped from Barlow's train shed, including a racing green, oxblood and a garish yellow.
> 
> What emerged was a pale blue, thought at first to be a primer.
> 
> ...


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## teuchter (Dec 3, 2007)

WouldBe said:
			
		

> It's years since I was at St P. What was the west wall like?



Can't remember what it was like on the outside.

While I was there the other day I noticed they were building some kind of additional structure at high level on this side. Not sure what that's all about.


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## teuchter (Dec 3, 2007)

lang rabbie said:
			
		

> He'll probably like the gothic brickwork in the entrance bit between the new Underground ticket hall and the "Arcade" of shops at undercroft level.
> 
> It took me a couple of minutes to convince myself that it is all brand new.



Is that all new then?

I found that space really bizzare ... a kind of no-man's land between the tube concourse and the station proper. Especially with the strange (and rather bright) lights on the wall. Feels like a bit of space no-one had really thought about. Which is unfortunate because presumably, in practice, this is how a large proportion of people will enter the station.

Also the tube concourse itself (I know it's been open for a while now) ... it's functional but a bit boring.


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## marty21 (Dec 3, 2007)

it was my first visit - found it a bit confusing really - it is a massive space, and i wasn't quite sure of the way out


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## Paulie Tandoori (Dec 3, 2007)

Interesting comments, we're going through it this weekend so will let you know first thoughts following that expedition.


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## William of Walworth (Dec 3, 2007)

Went there the Thursday evening after it opened to Eurostar traffic. I have some issues with some of the detail/retail, but the roof's the thing and transcends everything else, I was massively impressed!

The Baby Betjeman does NOT sell proper ale, which is a disgrace.

But overall, I love it, doesn't even dislike that statue as much as most people seem to 

Hoping for a sunny day on Saturday 15th when we go to look at it in the light.


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## psycherelic (Dec 3, 2007)

it seems ok, but doesn't fell too much like a station, I don't like the glass around the trains


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## Nixon (Dec 3, 2007)

I went to Paris on one of the last trains that week leaving from Waterloo and forgot I was coming back via St Pancras.It is pretty fucking nice..as a station.I agree that in some ways it didn't feel like they had considered the space at all,but then again that could have been because I got one of the first services you know.There was some interesting one way exits and stuff.


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## Crispy (Dec 3, 2007)

psycherelic said:
			
		

> it seems ok, but doesn't fell too much like a station, I don't like the glass around the trains


They have to be seperated somehow - passport control, you see.


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## dtb (Dec 3, 2007)

i liked the roof design and the statue but the upstairs is very quiet and doesn'#t feel like a train station. the champagne bar symbolises everything i hate about london at the moment, it's awful to see so many people quaffing champagne at £7.50 a glass


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## Poi E (Dec 3, 2007)

Did a return to Brussels the other day and I was extremly impressed. The station is very intuitive in terms of users finding their way around, with none of the "war zone" feeling that large halls like Waterloo create, with human traffic criss-crossing each other in a haphazard fashion.

Displays are arranged in a logical fashion, as are the direction signs, which must be a first for Britain. Britain does not do directions and signage very well generally.

Compared to Waterloo where no parts of the Eurostar were visible, I loved the train level. It presented the trains in a human fashion, such that the trains are not overly intrusive on the station as a whole. I know they are the whole point of being there, but I do like the fact that a bunch of anoraks have not managed to fetishize the trains.

Shops include M&S, chain coffee and a champagne bar that willl no doubt close down shortly. The usual suspects charging extortionate prices.

Check-in was fairly easy. The greatest disappointment is the departure hall after security. Poorly arranged seating, dysfunctional air conditioning, a low ceiling and generally felt like an after thought. 

And the ride? Awesome. Really notice the shortened train journey.

Thanks John.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Dec 3, 2007)

The Eurostar first class is still not open. Have to sit around with the proles whilst waiting for your train. An utter disgrace.


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## laptop (Dec 3, 2007)

Bahnhof Strasse said:
			
		

> Have to sit around with the proles whilst waiting for your train. An utter disgrace.



So where was the 1er classe lounge at Waterloo, then?


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## maes (Dec 3, 2007)

I just did a couple of eurostar trips through it. I'm pretty disappointed to be honest, they could have done something really interesting, as you say, mixing the trains with other facilities à la Hauptbanhof, and instead they built a giant wanky 'mall'. ugh.

Also, the exit from the eurostar, train to freedom, takes an AGE, through loads of gas-chamber style tunnels. Why can't we have a gare du nord style train - station exit?


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## Crispy (Dec 3, 2007)

mae said:
			
		

> I just did a couple of eurostar trips through it. I'm pretty disappointed to be honest, they could have done something really interesting, as you say, mixing the trains with other facilities à la Hauptbanhof, and instead they built a giant wanky 'mall'. ugh.


The Hauptbanhof does not have international services, and therfore the parts of the station can be intermingled. Passport control/customs/security at St.Pancras means that the eurostar trains and platforms have to be segregated.


> Also, the exit from the eurostar, train to freedom, takes an AGE, through loads of gas-chamber style tunnels. Why can't we have a gare du nord style train - station exit?


Because the 'front' of the station opens straight onto Euston Road, which is not a 'pick up and put down' road. The side road between St.P and KingsX is the sensible place to spew out passengers, as there is space for bus stops, taxis etc.

These problems are ultimately the result of refurbishing an old building for a new use. Compromises would alwyas have to be made.


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## kyser_soze (Dec 3, 2007)

On the champagne bar...precisely the sort of thing the Victorians (who invented modern shopping) would have approved of before heading off to the continent IMV...


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## teuchter (Dec 3, 2007)

Poi E said:
			
		

> Did a return to Brussels the other day and I was extremly impressed. The station is very intuitive in terms of users finding their way around, with none of the "war zone" feeling that large halls like Waterloo create, with human traffic criss-crossing each other in a haphazard fashion.



Might not be entirely fair to compare it with Waterloo where there are probably about five times as many trains arriving and departing.





			
				Poi E said:
			
		

> Compared to Waterloo where no parts of the Eurostar were visible, I loved the train level. It presented the trains in a human fashion, such that the trains are not overly intrusive on the station as a whole. I know they are the whole point of being there, but I do like the fact that a bunch of anoraks have not managed to fetishize the trains.



where is there left to fetishise trains if not in a train station??


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## laptop (Dec 3, 2007)

Crispy said:
			
		

> The Hauptbanhof does not have international services



This is Berlin Hbf? With departures for Warsaw at 16:37, 21:36 and 06:36?


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## teuchter (Dec 3, 2007)

laptop said:
			
		

> This is Berlin Hbf? With departures for Warsaw at 16:37, 21:36 and 06:36?



They aren't controlled with bag checks etc. though.


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## Poi E (Dec 3, 2007)

teuchter said:
			
		

> where is there left to fetishise trains if not in a train station??



Youtube and other places of anorak convergence.  

They have struck a decent balance between security and visibility. TBH I was surprised to see just the glass walls and not something more substantial.


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## marty21 (Dec 3, 2007)

Bahnhof Strasse said:
			
		

> The Eurostar first class is still not open. Have to sit around with the proles whilst waiting for your train. An utter disgrace.



indeed 

tbh, i'd be tempted to quaff a champagne if i was off to paris, not that bothered that there isn't real ale at baby betjiman's , didn't notice if there were any other bars though, is it just the champagne bar and baby betjimans?


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## Crispy (Dec 3, 2007)

laptop said:
			
		

> This is Berlin Hbf? With departures for Warsaw at 16:37, 21:36 and 06:36?


oh. blame wikipedia, it only mentions german connections 
besides, the UK border control is much stricter.


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## Xanadu (Dec 3, 2007)

laptop said:
			
		

> This is Berlin Hbf? With departures for Warsaw at 16:37, 21:36 and 06:36?



I went from Berlin to Krakow from Hbf IIRC.  There was no border control - that was done on the train at Frankfurt.


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## lang rabbie (Dec 3, 2007)

Crispy said:
			
		

> Because the 'front' of the station opens straight onto Euston Road, which is not a 'pick up and put down' road. The side road between St.P and KingsX is the sensible place to spew out passengers, as there is space for bus stops, taxis etc.



There could have been very effective taxi drop off and pick up at concourse level using the original Victorian roadways.

The wrong-headedness of the currently circulation for taxis (and the long walks this imposes on people who have mobility problems) is partly down to the dual level internal circulation that had to be adopted because the UK still wants to keep the "wrong sort" of foreigners out, but has been reinforced by the  "security" paranoia since September 2001 about allowing vehicle movements near transport teminals.    Since July 2007 the restrictions have got even tougher.   Will the front drive end up only be used for the hotel???


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## Crispy (Dec 3, 2007)

Good question. That makes me think that the works to the hotel might be preventing front entrance drop off for the moment. However, if you look at the floor plans (availabe here: http://www.stpancras.com/about-stpancras/amenities/) you can see how optimised the layout is for lower-floor drop off. Coming in the 'front' entrance, the first theing you see is a divider between you and the trains. You have do go around, go down a lift or stairs and then into the concourse/departures. Only expection is the GNER lines, which can be got to by going past the champagne bar.

I'll put the plans online - hang on a sec.


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## laptop (Dec 3, 2007)

lang rabbie said:
			
		

> The wrong-headedness of the currently circulation for taxis (and the long walks this imposes on people who have mobility problems) is partly down to the dual level internal circulation that had to be adopted because the UK still wants to keep the "wrong sort" of foreigners out



Aye - thinking of the Berlin Hbf comparison, it's weird that getting from London to Brussels on Friday will involve more "_Ihr Papieren_" nonsense than did getting from London to Berlin via the Iron Curtain checkpoint at Helmstedt in 1979.

Another thing down to Margaret Thatcher and the refusal to join Europe.




			
				lang rabbie said:
			
		

> but has been reinforced by the  "security" paranoia since September 2001 about allowing vehicle movements near transport teminals.    Since July 2007 the restrictions have got even tougher. Will the front drive end up only be used for the hotel???



Probably 

The bollards round the entrance on Pancras Road look like a post-design afterthought - as were the passport checks at Bruxelles Midi, built in the expectation that the UK would see sense and join Schengen.


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## Crispy (Dec 3, 2007)

Gah, these look shite 

platform level






downstairs





As you can see, no sensible traveller would want to get dropped off at the 'front' entrance - it's miles away from anywhere. It makes sense really - you want to spread the access to the platforms out as much as possible to avoid bottlenecks.


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## laptop (Dec 3, 2007)

Crispy said:
			
		

> Gah, these look shite



Slightly FAQ-busting but WTF:











It's the "key" that disturbs me - a site about "amenities" iis reduced to using the retail opportunity synergistic letting plan 

--------------------------------------
E2A: fullsize images. Photobucket


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## lang rabbie (Dec 3, 2007)

I was thinking more of those of us meeting aged parents etc. coming from the east midlands rather than possible inconvenience for a tryst in Paris with your lover. 

My crumblies still  have to walk the length of the East Midlands Trains (formerly Midland Mainline but never GNER!!!) before they reach a concourse, where they then have to go down an escalator, double back on themselves, go across the full width of the station, and they might then find the start of a taxi queue, which is considerably more exposed to the elements than the former covered carriage drive next to the old booking office.


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## teuchter (Dec 3, 2007)

Crispy said:
			
		

> Gah, these look shite
> 
> 
> As you can see, no sensible traveller would want to get dropped off at the 'front' entrance - it's miles away from anywhere. It makes sense really - you want to spread the access to the platforms out as much as possible to avoid bottlenecks.



Yes, when I was there I had the distinct impression that the intention was for the main access (for people on buses/taxis/feet) to be the one halfway along the East side. It certainly makes sense logically, as it brings you right into the middle of the plan. It will also make more sense once they've finished doing up Kings Cross too, because this will be a big public area between the two buildings (I think?).

It is a bit unfortunate, though, that if you enter the building this way (especially if you go straight into the Eurostar bit) you don't really experience the main roof... I suppose you do once you eventually get on to the platform, for all the five minute's you'll be there.

I guess that's why I made the comments in the OP about the station functions feeling a bit subsiduary to the retail ones. If you're catching the Eurostar, most of the time you spend in the station will be waiting to go through security and then waiting to be called for your train. It's a shame that this waiting time can't be spent within the main dramatic space of the building - it's mainly the shoppers who get that.

(PS would like to see those plans in more detail but couldn't find them on the website - where are they Crispy?)


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## teuchter (Dec 3, 2007)

I notice that it looks like the idea is to move the access to the underground to the corner of the new bit eventually, which would explain why the existing arrangement feels a bit odd.


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## William of Walworth (Dec 4, 2007)

Poi E said:
			
		

> Youtube and other places of anorak convergence.
> 
> They have struck a decent balance between security and visibility. TBH I was surprised to see just the glass walls and not something more substantial.






That was essentially my reaction.


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## Crispy (Dec 4, 2007)

teuchter said:
			
		

> (PS would like to see those plans in more detail but couldn't find them on the website - where are they Crispy?)


 Links are in the top right box on that 'amenities' page. They're PDF - very detailed too, look like they're taken straight from the architect's plans.


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## maes (Dec 4, 2007)

Crispy said:
			
		

> As you can see, no sensible traveller would want to get dropped off at the 'front' entrance - it's miles away from anywhere. It makes sense really - you want to spread the access to the platforms out as much as possible to avoid bottlenecks.



I wasn't talking about the distance from train to street, but the distance from train to the point where friends and family meet you, ie. out of the eurostar system, in the station. Totally agree that you can't have the main entrance at the 'front'.

Point is that the arrivals hall on your plan involves people getting off the trains to walk for ages before getting belched into the main hall. It's a total waste of time & space - there is no need for an arrivals hall, look at gare du nord, the end of the platform leads to the concourse without any fucking about. At st p's there're loads of abandoned customs style posts and mysterious hallways, why the difference in post-travelling security arrangements?


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## Crispy (Dec 4, 2007)

teuchter said:
			
		

> It will also make more sense once they've finished doing up Kings Cross too, because this will be a big public area between the two buildings (I think?).


That's right. Eventually, the new concourse for KingsX will be over the road. Here's a draft plan (no building deisgns are finalised)


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## Crispy (Dec 4, 2007)

Mae - I'm guessing that on arrival, the first thing you want to do is make your connection - and that'll be another train, a tube or a taxi. All of which are best done from the lower level. And when king's Cross gets redone - at the midpoint.

I agree with all the points about not spending time under the big roof, but any consession to this would result in a less efficient plan, IMO. And stations have to be about efficiency or they don't work.


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## maes (Dec 4, 2007)

Agreed. I'm basically trying to say I think it's inefficient, but I'm really not expressing myself well I think.

Oh well.


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## teuchter (Dec 4, 2007)

Crispy said:
			
		

> That's right. Eventually, the new concourse for KingsX will be over the road. Here's a draft plan (no building deisgns are finalised)




More info here.






I'm quite looking forward to seeing Kings Cross once they get rid of that crappy low-level structure currently tacked onto the front of it.

Here's what it used to look like:


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## teuchter (Dec 4, 2007)

Crispy said:
			
		

> I agree with all the points about not spending time under the big roof, but any consession to this would result in a less efficient plan, IMO. And stations have to be about efficiency or they don't work.



I think there could be a concession to this without compromising efficency. It would probably compromise the desirability of the retail space, however.


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## kyser_soze (Dec 4, 2007)

Sexy. That's all I'm saying...


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## lang rabbie (Dec 5, 2007)

kyser_soze said:
			
		

> Sexy. That's all I'm saying...



If it ever gets built like that. - The last I heard the cost consultants were looking for savings - the ideas was that the new Northern Ticket Hall for Kings Cross St Pancras Tube station and the new Western Concourse for Kings Cross mainline to be built on top of it should be planned as one project so they could be constructed within a fixed price budget.   

There were suggestions that the elegant semi-circular roof for the Western Concourse might not happen.  Anyone got more insider knowledge.


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## Miss-Shelf (Dec 5, 2007)

i just went out / back on eurostar to bruxelles then to koln this weekend

agree - the departure post passport is low level - didn't take euros or card transactions in shop/cafe - looks like all the amenieties concentrated in the 'mall'

arrival back to st pancras pleasurable in looks after the dismal experience of bruxelles midi but the long walk under the floor and out seemed unecessary

our destination was koln hauptbahnhof and this was great - a functional dramatic station with international trains/local trains all mingling with a well used station with many services open till after midnight

all in all its a train station with long distance trains hurrah.  I LOVE TRAINS


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## catrina (Dec 5, 2007)

Well, I went to look yesterday. I must say, I really like it. Especially the Eurostar part of it. It looks like you're going on a plane, not a train! I really like the blue archway, I think it looks nice.

I couldn't find the oyster bar, I was rushing through. The bottom part is nice, and just as much a shopping centre as any other railway station I've been in the world. At least it's clean and will never be exposed to tobacco smoke!

The tube station is really nice now, too, which I really appreciate. That area has been such a drag to travel through forever.

I'm glad they used some new brick rather than doing the whole thing up in modern identikit like they've been doing throughout London. After a little wear and tear, the brick will blend in and will look vintage, rather than dated.


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## Crispy (Dec 5, 2007)

catrina said:
			
		

> I'm glad they used some new brick rather than doing the whole thing up in modern identikit like they've been doing throughout London. After a little wear and tear, the brick will blend in and will look vintage, rather than dated.



They'd have had no choice - the building is listed, which means _very_ strict controls on the construction methods, materials and design of any alteration to the existing fabric.


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## hipipol (Dec 6, 2007)

*never get it back to....*

this...


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Dec 6, 2007)

laptop said:
			
		

> So where was the 1er classe lounge at Waterloo, then?



Once through secuirty, go about 1/2 way along the departure lounge there was a door on your left, you walked in there, reception is in front of you, drinks area to your right with seating, seating area to your left.


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## laptop (Dec 8, 2007)

Now there's a makeshift curtained-off avoid-the-polloi area at St Pancras. 

In Brussels, on the other hand, there are 70s orange leather wing chairs and free WiFi - hence this


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## lang rabbie (Dec 27, 2007)

I got the train from St Pancras to Tulse Hill today and used the "First Capital Connect" platforms for the first time.  

The connection for anyone wanting to connect between "East Midlands Trains" (formerly Midland Mainline) and the Thameslink services is a thousand times more convenient than the old schlep across to Kings Cross Thameslink, which is great for me when visiting folk in the midlands.

But ... being an ungrateful sod ... in my twelve minute wait on the platform I was left wanting to rant and rave!  

[Victor Meldrew]

(i)  After spending some £70million of public money on the new Thameslink station, why have they failed to include a direct link to the new Western Ticket Hall for London Underground - which is only a few yards from the southern end of the new platforms   The walk from the deep level tube lines to the Thameslink services must now be ten minutes longer than it was, making the daily journey of thousands of London commuters more inconvenient [but hey they will now be captive footfall for the shopping mall inside the station!]

(ii) Why do the new Thameslink station platforms look so shoddily finished - bits of metal in the ceilings that don't meet, cheap and nasty light cowling etc.   I suspect it will need a major revamp within twenty years because of false economies.

(iii) Are we really not allowed to even have a coffee bar at platform level - if you want to get a coffee you have to navigate it and your luggage down two flights of escalators.

(iv) Why has EVERY mention of Thameslink been suppressed in a rebranding of Stalinist purge proportions.   It is corporate wankerdom of the highest order of stupidity- First Capital Connect will still be running half of their services out of the Kings Cross Suburban platforms until 2010 or later - yet there is now signage all over St Pancras directing you to the far northern end of that station.   If you actually wanted to get one of FCC's former "Great Northern" services to Cambridgeshire, you can't run across St Pancras Road, as there is an intervening building site where they are digging a hole for the new Northern Ticket Hall (delayed by Treasury prevarication for three years)

[/Victor Meldrew]


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## DG55 (Dec 28, 2007)

I've got to say, that kings cross redevelopment thing looks fabulous, once the entire thing - tube, kings cross, st pancras - is all done, it will be stunning and uber modern. Nice!


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## teuchter (Jan 5, 2008)

lang rabbie said:
			
		

> I got the train from St Pancras to Tulse Hill today and used the "First Capital Connect" platforms for the first time.
> 
> The connection for anyone wanting to connect between "East Midlands Trains" (formerly Midland Mainline) and the Thameslink services is a thousand times more convenient than the old schlep across to Kings Cross Thameslink, which is great for me when visiting folk in the midlands.
> 
> But ... being an ungrateful sod ... in my twelve minute wait on the platform I was left wanting to rant and rave!



Used the thameslink bit for the first time myself the other day... it's a bit weird; it doesn't really feel like it's in London somehow...



> [Victor Meldrew]
> 
> (i)  After spending some £70million of public money on the new Thameslink station, why have they failed to include a direct link to the new Western Ticket Hall for London Underground - which is only a few yards from the southern end of the new platforms   The walk from the deep level tube lines to the Thameslink services must now be ten minutes longer than it was, making the daily journey of thousands of London commuters more inconvenient [but hey they will now be captive footfall for the shopping mall inside the station!]



Not sure about this but I think that the main entrance to the tube station is going to be moved Northwards eventually, so perhaps the thameslink bit will be connected directly to this once it's built.




> (ii) Why do the new Thameslink station platforms look so shoddily finished - bits of metal in the ceilings that don't meet, cheap and nasty light cowling etc.   I suspect it will need a major revamp within twenty years because of false economies.



Agreed.



> (iii) Are we really not allowed to even have a coffee bar at platform level - if you want to get a coffee you have to navigate it and your luggage down two flights of escalators.



It certainly feels rather stark down there,



> (iv) Why has EVERY mention of Thameslink been suppressed in a rebranding of Stalinist purge proportions.   It is corporate wankerdom of the highest order of stupidity- First Capital Connect will still be running half of their services out of the Kings Cross Suburban platforms until 2010 or later - yet there is now signage all over St Pancras directing you to the far northern end of that station.   If you actually wanted to get one of FCC's former "Great Northern" services to Cambridgeshire, you can't run across St Pancras Road, as there is an intervening building site where they are digging a hole for the new Northern Ticket Hall (delayed by Treasury prevarication for three years)
> 
> [/Victor Meldrew]



Agreed again. There is no good reason why they couldn't have just called it First Thameslink (if they must include the First in there). It's really stupid and unecessary, just dogs-pissing-on-lampposts type stuff.


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## laptop (Jan 5, 2008)

teuchter said:
			
		

> There is no good reason why they couldn't have just called in First Thameslink (if they must include the First in there). It's really stupid and unecessary, just dogs-pissing-on-lampposts type stuff.



"Branding" is what managers have instead of lives


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## editor (Feb 3, 2008)

Took a quick look today:


















http://www.urban75.org/london/st-pancras-station-2008.html


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## teuchter (Feb 3, 2008)

editor said:


> Took a quick look today:
> http://www.urban75.org/london/st-pancras-station-2008.html



Nice photos.

And good to see it with the stupid christmas banners taken down from the South gable-end of the main shed interior.

I see in your description you go along with the "longest champagne bar in x" line - I don't really buy it; it's not a continuous bar at all. Just a long row of seating. The definition of a bar is that is has drinkers on one side and bar staff on the other. In my humble opinion, anyway...


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## _pH_ (Nov 20, 2008)

serious-not-pointless bump!  <- my behaving-nicely-not-breaking-the-FAQ face

I went to sheff today from St. P. (quite a good journey - newish class 222 DMU on the way, old stylee HST back - apart from the train up there being invaded by loads of people coming over from KX just before it left as the ECML had just been closed due to overhead line probs at P'boro)

I've been to the new St. P. before today but being there today got me wondering. I can't work out whether the 'downstairs' bit was the 'original' platform and new platforms have been built on a new level, or the platforms are as they used to be, with the 'retail' bit in some sort of cellar that was always there.

I'm inclined towards the latter, because of the columns which would appear to be original cast iron. If so, what was down there before they did the station up??

Can anybody (train)shed some light on this?


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## HackneyE9 (Nov 20, 2008)

_pH_ said:


> serious-not-pointless bump!  <- my behaving-nicely-not-breaking-the-FAQ face
> 
> I went to sheff today from St. P. (quite a good journey - newish class 222 DMU on the way, old stylee HST back - apart from the train up there being invaded by loads of people coming over from KX just before it left as the ECML had just been closed due to overhead line probs at P'boro)
> 
> ...



Yeah. The platforms are as was. The cellars were used in Victorian times for storing barrels of beer and or freight. In sixties were used as offices for British Rail Architects Division, amongst other things.


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## _pH_ (Nov 20, 2008)

ah ok, ty.

I wonder what it was like down there in the 60s?? I imagine it would have been dark and damp but i'm probably wrong


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## HackneyE9 (Nov 20, 2008)

_pH_ said:


> ah ok, ty.
> 
> I wonder what it was like down there in the 60s?? I imagine it would have been dark and damp but i'm probably wrong



My dad worked down there for a bit, so I'll ask him. But yeah, windowless, dirty and noisy, you'd imagine!


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## _pH_ (Nov 20, 2008)

HackneyE9 said:


> My dad worked down there for a bit, so I'll ask him.



ooh, yes please! I'd be interested to know (but then I am a bit of an anorak about these things )


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## teuchter (Nov 20, 2008)

The patforms were at the same level and as far as I remember that was the level you entered at from the street, wasn't it? You walked up the taxi ramp and in through the front, which was a rather more impressive way to enter than the way you do now. As far as I know, eventually, the front will be opened up again. I don't know when.

Here's a photo as was. It's funny how quickly you get used to new things ... it's easy to forget just how dirty and neglected it used to look (although to be honest I rather liked the gloomy atmosphere, all filled with diesel fumes; it seemed to suit the gothic style of the architecture somehow...)


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## _pH_ (Nov 20, 2008)

yeah, that's how i remember it. you're right about the diesel fumes - I remember it back in the 80s with the HSTs, Peaks and 127 DMUs. barely breathable air


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## teuchter (Nov 20, 2008)

_pH_ said:


> yeah, that's how i remember it. you're right about the diesel fumes - I remember it back in the 80s with the HSTs, Peaks and 127 DMUs. barely breathable air



Paddington has a little of that about it still. But all boring re-engined HSTs.


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## _pH_ (Nov 20, 2008)

BR ain't what it used to be


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## teuchter (Nov 20, 2008)

Aye.

*sombre but slightly sentimental music*


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## laptop (Nov 20, 2008)

_pH_ said:


> I wonder what it was like down there in the 60s?? I imagine it would have been dark and damp but i'm probably wrong



The New Year's party down there in 1996 or 97 was dry, dirty & dark 





Best memory of St Pancras: wandering up into the trainshed at 6am on New Year's day to hear the platforms quietly reverberating to the beat beneath.


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## _pH_ (Nov 20, 2008)

laptop said:


> The New Year's party down there in 1996 or 97 was dry, dirty & dark
> 
> 
> 
> ...



how cool is that?


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## HackneyE9 (Nov 21, 2008)

_pH_ said:


> ooh, yes please! I'd be interested to know (but then I am a bit of an anorak about these things )



Will do. (may take a while, he's just come out of hospital).


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## Biddlybee (Sep 19, 2009)

New station's a bit flash innit.


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## phildwyer (Sep 19, 2009)

I live by there when in London.  Longest champagne bar in the world.


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