# Junior doctors strike back on



## Guineveretoo (Jan 4, 2016)

The talks between the BMA and NHS/DoH have broken down, so that the junior doctors are being called out on strike for 3 days.

BMA - Junior and consultant contract negotiations | British Medical Association | Junior doctors to take industrial action as Government talks fail


----------



## superfly101 (Jan 4, 2016)

Good


----------



## nino_savatte (Jan 4, 2016)

Excellent.


----------



## bimble (Jan 4, 2016)

Junior doctors in England to strike next week after talks break down

'*The first industrial action by junior doctors since November 1975 *will result in the 45,000 junior doctors in England providing only emergency cover for 24 hours from 8am on 12 January, leading to a much reduced level of operation. They will stage the same sort of withdrawal of labour for 48 hours from 8am on Tuesday 26 January, and then stage one all-out strike between 8am and 5pm on Wednesday 10 February."

Good. I mean not good but good they are doing it. The terms of that new contract are unbelievably awful.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Jan 4, 2016)

Had I the ability do do so, I would dismiss the whole bloody lot of them. They are a disgrace to the profession.

If you want a big salary and office hours, do something else. 

As a nurse I routinely worked weekends, nights, bank holidays, Christmas Day etc, and thought absolutely nothing of it. It came with the job.


----------



## bimble (Jan 4, 2016)

Sasaferrato said:


> Had I the ability do do so, I would dismiss the whole bloody lot of them. They are a disgrace to the profession.
> 
> If you want a big salary and office hours, do something else.
> 
> As a nurse I routinely worked weekends, nights, bank holidays, Christmas Day etc, and thought absolutely nothing of it. It came with the job.



Oh dear. Really? Nobody is asking for bigger salaries or 9-5 hours.
Have a look into what they are striking about, the terms of the contract that they were told they'd all have to sign.


----------



## William of Walworth (Jan 4, 2016)

Sasaferrato said:
			
		

> Had I the ability do do so, I would dismiss the whole bloody lot of them. They are a disgrace to the profession.
> 
> If you want a big salary and office hours, do something else.
> 
> As a nurse I routinely worked weekends, nights, bank holidays, Christmas Day etc, and thought absolutely nothing of it. It came with the job.



At the time, were you in a union, and/or in a professional association that looked after your interests well, Sasaferrato ?

Medical professionals hate striking, so why are you blaming them?. I'm sure you've had some sort of look at why they feel they've been driven into this. Have you looked at the *details* of their new contracts?

Most strikes are provoked by crap management, and Hunt is the walking, talking embodiment of bad management. Surely?


----------



## bi0boy (Jan 4, 2016)

superfly101 said:


> Good





nino_savatte said:


> Excellent.



Surely it would be better if talks hadn't broken down?


----------



## Saul Goodman (Jan 4, 2016)

Sasaferrato said:


> Had I the ability do do so, I would dismiss the whole bloody lot of them. They are a disgrace to the profession.
> 
> If you want a big salary and office hours, do something else.
> 
> As a nurse I routinely worked weekends, nights, bank holidays, Christmas Day etc, and thought absolutely nothing of it. It came with the job.



When were you a nurse?
Have you any idea what it's like to be junior doctor now?


----------



## superfly101 (Jan 4, 2016)

Saul Goodman said:


> When were you a nurse?
> Have you any idea what it's like to be junior doctor now?


----------



## Guineveretoo (Jan 4, 2016)

Sasaferrato said:


> Had I the ability do do so, I would dismiss the whole bloody lot of them. They are a disgrace to the profession.
> 
> If you want a big salary and office hours, do something else.
> 
> As a nurse I routinely worked weekends, nights, bank holidays, Christmas Day etc, and thought absolutely nothing of it. It came with the job.


Junior doctors routinely work bank holidays, nights and weekends as well.

The government is not only proposing to reduce the money they are paid, which is not as much as some people think, but are also removing the safeguards which are in place to try and stop hospitals from breaching the working time regulations which now apply to junior doctors.

Do you want to be operated on, or life saving diagnoses to be made, by a doctor who hasn't slept for days? That's what used to happen, and we must stop it from happening again.


----------



## bimble (Jan 4, 2016)

I'm really glad that Sasaferrato is not in charge, come tomorrow morning we'd have no doctors at all, because they'd all be sacked, which seems a bit of drastic way to solve the NHS funding problem.


----------



## 8ball (Jan 4, 2016)

Sasaferrato said:


> Had I the ability do do so, I would dismiss the whole bloody lot of them. They are a disgrace to the profession.
> 
> If you want a big salary and office hours, do something else.
> 
> As a nurse I routinely worked weekends, nights, bank holidays, Christmas Day etc, and thought absolutely nothing of it. It came with the job.



There were a few wobbles back in 2015 but it's good to see you're starting 2016 in full-on 'stupid ignorant Tory cunt' mode.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Jan 4, 2016)

bimble said:


> Oh dear. Really? Nobody is asking for bigger salaries or 9-5 hours.
> Have a look into what they are striking about, the terms of the contract that they were told they'd all have to sign.



I have done.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Jan 4, 2016)

bimble said:


> I'm really glad that Sasaferrato is not in charge, come tomorrow morning we'd have no doctors at all, because they'd all be sacked, which seems a bit of drastic way to solve the NHS funding problem.



No, much as I would like to, it isn't feasible.

I really despise then for this. It has taken what used to be a vocation and traduced it. Anyone who becomes a nurse or doctor for the money, is in the wrong job.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Jan 4, 2016)

Saul Goodman said:


> When were you a nurse?
> Have you any idea what it's like to be junior doctor now?



I do. Yes. 

The whole concept of 'unsocial hours' is anachronistic, especially in medicine and similar 24/7 activities. Raise basic salaries, which is what is proposed, and phase out unsocial hours payments.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Jan 4, 2016)

Guineveretoo said:


> Junior doctors routinely work bank holidays, nights and weekends as well.
> 
> The government is not only proposing to reduce the money they are paid, which is not as much as some people think, but are also removing the safeguards which are in place to try and stop hospitals from breaching the working time regulations which now apply to junior doctors.
> 
> Do you want to be operated on, or life saving diagnoses to be made, by a doctor who hasn't slept for days? That's what used to happen, and we must stop it from happening again.



Some of the finest surgery of the last decade has been performed in Iraq and Afghanistan. What sort of hours do you think these doctors were working?

When I started as a student nurse in 1970, junior doctors would be on call from Fri 12:00 until Mon 12:00. They coped perfectly well. I feel you are being a tad histrionic in your assertion.


----------



## bimble (Jan 4, 2016)

Sasaferrato said:


> No, much as I would like to, it isn't feasible.
> 
> I really despise then for this. It has taken what used to be a vocation and traduced it. Anyone who becomes a nurse or doctor for the money, is in the wrong job.



Err. ok. So you have decided that all the junior doctors working in the NHS chose the job because they thought it looked like a good way to get rich quick.


----------



## 8ball (Jan 4, 2016)

Sasaferrato said:


> Some of the finest surgery of the last decade has been performed in Iraq and Afghanistan. What sort of hours do you think these doctors were working?



Maybe we should tie one arm behind their back too.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Jan 4, 2016)

bimble said:


> Err. ok. So you have decided that all the junior doctors working in the NHS chose the job because they thought it looked like a good way to get rich quick.



I cannot be bothered. I've said what I think, and you are entirely free to agree or disagree.


----------



## bimble (Jan 4, 2016)

Sasaferrato said:


> I cannot be bothered. I've said what I think, and you are entirely free to agree or disagree.


Thanks, that's a relief.

Junior doctors, Jeremy Hunt and the facts behind the strike ballot


----------



## bimble (Jan 4, 2016)

The BMA website is publishing advice on how to picket.
This sort of thing hasn't happened in England since the 1970s.
http://oneprofessionbmaorguk.c.pres...ce-for-safe-picketing_WEB-PRINT-Version-3.pdf


----------



## Guineveretoo (Jan 4, 2016)

Sasaferrato said:


> Some of the finest surgery of the last decade has been performed in Iraq and Afghanistan. What sort of hours do you think these doctors were working?
> 
> When I started as a student nurse in 1970, junior doctors would be on call from Fri 12:00 until Mon 12:00. They coped perfectly well. I feel you are being a tad histrionic in your assertion.


But they didn't cope perfectly well! 

And I'm not being in the slightest bit histrionic. Am stating a few facts, that's all. You're just choosing to ignore those facts, for reasons I don't understand.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 4, 2016)

Guineveretoo said:


> The talks between the BMA and NHS/DoH have broken down, so that the junior doctors are being called out on strike for 3 days.
> 
> BMA - Junior and consultant contract negotiations | British Medical Association | Junior doctors to take industrial action as Government talks fail


doh indeed


----------



## kropotkin (Jan 4, 2016)

Sasaferrato said:


> Had I the ability do do so, I would dismiss the whole bloody lot of them. They are a disgrace to the profession.
> 
> If you want a big salary and office hours, do something else.
> 
> As a nurse I routinely worked weekends, nights, bank holidays, Christmas Day etc, and thought absolutely nothing of it. It came with the job.


You are an idiot.


----------



## purenarcotic (Jan 4, 2016)

Sasaferrato said:


> I cannot be bothered. I've said what I think, and you are entirely free to agree or disagree.



Your whole attitude is very odd. Nobody should be ashamed of wanting a decent wage and decent working conditions for the job they do. I want the doctors treating me to be well paid and not overworked as they are saving lives and doing some of the most important work in our world. Nobody goes into health and social care for the money but that doesn't mean we just have shit lumped on us either.  Surely you want a better world, not some silly race to the bottom, I know I do at any rate.


----------



## superfly101 (Jan 4, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> doh indeed


----------



## brogdale (Jan 4, 2016)

Sasaferrato said:


> Had I the ability do do so, I would dismiss the whole bloody lot of them. They are a disgrace to the profession.
> 
> If you want a big salary and office hours, do something else.
> 
> As a nurse I routinely worked weekends, nights, bank holidays, Christmas Day etc, and thought absolutely nothing of it. It came with the job.


Classic 'negative solidarity' of the impotent reactionary.
Pitiful.


----------



## Guineveretoo (Jan 5, 2016)

A CALL FROM THE BMA - TO OUR FELLOW WORKERS, TRADE UNIONISTS AND ACTIVISTS: WE NEED YOU!

The current situation:

Junior Doctors across England will be commencing industrial action on Tuesday 12th January. We are opposing this government’s attempt to impose an unsafe new contract on the medical profession. It is our view that the proposed contract represents an existential danger to the NHS as an institution.

You may be aware that the BMA had initially suspended its planned industrial action at the start of December and returned to talks with the Department of Health. That decision was made in good faith. However, over the last few weeks, in the course of negotiations with Government we have encountered only intransigence. It is clear that the government perceives our contract issue as pivotal for its attempt to “reform” the NHS towards a neoliberal, commercialised system.

It is therefore evident to us that we have no choice but to transform our 98% ballot mandate into action.  

The developments of the next few months will have consequences stretching far into the future. This government is wilfully putting at risk our patients' safety, the tolerability of our working lives as NHS workers and the very viability of the NHS as a publicly-funded, publicly-provided service.

Why we need YOU

The coming period will be the ultimate test of the BMA’s resolve as a Union. However, we remain mindful of the fact that the BMA is not an abstract entity operating in isolation from wider political developments. There is no way that we can win this on our own. We need all concerned citizens, activists and trade unionists to stand alongside us in this fight.

Over the last few months we have been in dialogue with many trade unionists throughout the country and we have been enormously grateful for their support both at a local and national level. The public messages of support from our allied health worker colleagues, the firefighters, the teaching unions and the TUC and TUCG unions have galvanised junior doctors.

We are therefore well aware that all eyes are upon us and that the institutions which represent the wider working class stand with us in solidarity.

We are in no doubt that Osborne, Cameron and Hunt will use the proposed doctor’s contract as a tool for achieving the destruction of safe terms and conditions throughout the NHS and throughout the public sector. The Conservative Party is attempting to stretch the NHS into an ostensibly 7-day elective service whilst simultaneously launching the biggest assault on NHS resources in its history. The politics of austerity represents a clear and present danger to the nation’s health.

A victory for the Junior Doctors would signify the first real crack in the entire edifice of austerity in the UK.

Please stand with us. And when you need us, ask us. We will stand by you.

Invitation to attend our pickets

On behalf of the entire BMA we thank you all for your incredible support so far. Many of you will have seen the details with regards to the planned action and I will reiterate them below. We invite you to come out and display your visible support for us on the days of action.

The action will begin with an emergency care-only model, which would see junior doctors provide the same level of service that happens in their given specialty, hospital or GP practice on Christmas Day. It will then escalate to full walk-outs. The action as proposed is:

Emergency care only — 24 hrs from 8am Tuesday 12 January to 8am Wednesday 13 January

Emergency care only — 48 hrs from 8am Tuesday 26th January to 8am Thursday 28 January

Full withdrawal of labour — from 8am to 5pm Wednesday 10th February
The aim is to picket all major hospitals in England on all three days of proposed action. Pickets will be in the vicinity of the main entrances and will start at 8am, continuing until at least 12.30pm. However, many picket sites will continue into the evening, especially at the larger hospitals.
Along with the pickets there will be parallel “Meet the Doctors” events at nearby transport stops or public spaces. We will direct you to these events from the picket.
Please turn up on the days of action, and give us your support. We will then inform you if other local events are planned on the day. If you are an allied health worker, trade unionist or campaigner please do consider bringing along the banner representing your organisation, your working uniform or similar. We would appreciate it however if banners in explicit endorsement of specific political parties are not displayed and that any selling of campaign literature such as newspapers is relatively discreet.
On the days of action, please do debate us, educate us and invite us to address your colleagues in your workplace or trade union branch.

Finally

I would also like to take this opportunity to remind you of another important upcoming date. On Saturday 9th January student nurses, midwives and allied health workers will be marching in opposition to Government plans to scrap the NHS student bursary. The protest will assemble outside St Thomas’s hospital at midday and proceed to Downing St. The BMA will be marching alongside the nursing students and we hope to see you there!

Just as the social democratic consensus in this country began with the inception of the NHS in 1948 so too will the NHS be the site of Britain’s last stand against the all-consuming forces of austerity.

Solidarity is the antidote to the cynicism of those in power. Now is the time to stand together in a common defence of the NHS. If not now, when?

Kind regards

Dr Yannis Gourtsoyannis, Member of BMA Junior Doctors Committee National Executive.
 Yannis Gourtsoyannis
Yannis Gourtsoyannis
4 Jan 2016


----------



## redsquirrel (Jan 5, 2016)

Sasaferrato said:


> The whole concept of 'unsocial hours' is anachronistic,


Do you actually live in the real world, I mean even you must recognise that 2 am is rather different to 2 pm.


----------



## bimble (Jan 5, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> Do you actually live in the real world, I mean even you must recognise that 2 am is rather different to 2 pm.



Sasaferrato has already explained that there's no problem in his/her mind with doctors working 72 hours straight.



Sasaferrato said:


> When I started as a student nurse in 1970, junior doctors would be on call from Fri 12:00 until Mon 12:00. They coped perfectly well.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jan 5, 2016)

Sasaferrato said:


> The whole concept of 'unsocial hours' is anachronistic, especially in medicine and similar 24/7 activities. Raise basic salaries, which is what is proposed, and phase out unsocial hours payments.



That isn't what is happening though. Lowering the costs of employing doctors with only 2% of doctors losing pay? Is Hunt related to Paul Daniels? This is just another part of Hunt readying the NHS to be flogged off to Branson et al. 

BTW I was recently treated in Hunt's main A&E, the Royal Surrey - fucking awesome beyond words. And every study not carried out by neo-cons shows the NHS is the best value health care system in the world. 

So fuck Hunt and all those who are trying to sell the NHS to make money for their mates at the expense of the sick.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jan 5, 2016)

Oh and if Hunt is in the right, why does he rely on repeating his lie about more weekend deaths to push his point forward?


----------



## existentialist (Jan 5, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> Do you actually live in the real world, I mean even you must recognise that 2 am is rather different to 2 pm.


I think what he's saying is not that there is no difference, but that it doesn't matter any more. He's probably right, but that doesn't mean that's a good thing, or that we shouldn't be doing something to stop it going further, or to roll it back.


----------



## Plumdaff (Jan 5, 2016)

Sasaferrato said:


> Had I the ability do do so, I would dismiss the whole bloody lot of them. They are a disgrace to the profession.
> 
> If you want a big salary and office hours, do something else.
> 
> As a nurse I routinely worked weekends, nights, bank holidays, Christmas Day etc, and thought absolutely nothing of it. It came with the job.



There weren't any doctors with you at the time then? And you didn't get paid for any of this? If there's no difference in the current world between 2pm and 2am you'll have no problem organising childcare at that time of day then, I'm sure.

As a currently practising nurse I completely stand with the doctors against this awful, dangerous contract. And be in no doubt there's coming for the nurses next, and all the protections for patient safety built up since your Carry On era of healthcare because working those hours in those conditions led to doctor error and patient harm. And clueless buffoons like you would be cheering them on. Glad you're no longer in the profession.


----------



## irf520 (Jan 5, 2016)

If you're an HGV driver, you're only allowed to drive for 9 hours a day and must take a break every 4.5 hours. So why is it dangerous for HGV drivers to work long hours but not dangerous for doctors?


----------



## 8ball (Jan 5, 2016)

irf520 said:


> If you're an HGV driver, you're only allowed to drive for 9 hours a day and must take a break every 4.5 hours. So why is it dangerous for HGV drivers to work long hours but not dangerous for doctors?



Some old bollocks about 'Nam, probably.


----------



## 8ball (Jan 6, 2016)

Additional: I don't want to be self-indulgent, but I was in hospital 2 weeks ago - I was told to come in post haste because they had put something called a 'loop recorder' just above my heart and it had been telling tales on what my ticker had been up to (stopping for several seconds at a time in my sleep, among other misbehaviour)... after a bit of consideration among consultants I've been fitted with a fancy kind of pacemaker.  Not to make this all about about me, but I could hear plenty of conversations among nurses (not junior doctors) about the changes to contracts, and these are seen very much seen as part of a pattern of attacks on the service ('attacks' was the word most used - there are also especially egregious changes being made to nursing training bursaries too - given the salaries that nurses are paid I can only see this as another arm of an all-spectrum assault on the NHS).

I've had fantastic care in that hospital and I've seen first hand what the vermin's attacks are doing to the morale of the really great staff.  I know I'd be a wreck after even one day of what they deal with week in week out.

I wish there was something more I could do to help but in lieu of anything more effective I will be supporting these strikes with every breath in my body.


----------



## bimble (Jan 6, 2016)

Yep. More just anecdata but.. I know a junior doctor, works in mental health arguably the most overstretched bit of the whole NHS and I couldn't handle one day/night of what he does. How he copes with the stress the responsibility the hours are beyond me. And that's after accumulating a massive amount of debt which he's nowhere near paying off, for the extended years of incredibly competitive study to qualify.

grim reading in Guardian today:By the end of my first year as a doctor, I was ready to kill myself


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jan 6, 2016)

And let's never lose sight that these changes are not in the name of efficiency or austerity, they are in the name of ideology. An ideology that was shown to be seriously flawed 30 years ago, yet these scum keep plugging away at it as it make them richer.


----------



## existentialist (Jan 6, 2016)

I just thought: this strike's only in England, isn't it? I'd had it in mind to slope down to the local general hospital for a bit of solidarity and fist-bumps...


----------



## Plumdaff (Jan 6, 2016)

existentialist Welsh government has committed to not changing the contract.


----------



## Guineveretoo (Jan 6, 2016)

existentialist said:


> I just thought: this strike's only in England, isn't it? I'd had it in mind to slope down to the local general hospital for a bit of solidarity and fist-bumps...


The NHS is quite differently run in Wales, so no, no chance for fist bumping on this occasion.


----------



## treelover (Jan 7, 2016)

Junior Doctors Contracts

Strikers website


----------



## killer b (Jan 8, 2016)

Indie front page tomorrow is stirring shit up.

How Whitehall officials used a top medic to build a 'hard-edged' case against junior doctors


----------



## killer b (Jan 8, 2016)

existentialist said:


> I just thought: this strike's only in England, isn't it? I'd had it in mind to slope down to the local general hospital for a bit of solidarity and fist-bumps...


A JD friend asked me to share this, which has a list of actions and pickets: http://jdocs.co.uk/


----------



## treelover (Jan 8, 2016)

Trying to find up to date FB pages, twitter, etc, 'not safe not fair' not been updated since Nov.


----------



## Guineveretoo (Jan 9, 2016)

treelover said:


> Trying to find up to date FB pages, twitter, etc, 'not safe not fair' not been updated since Nov.


Home - Junior doctors to take industrial action as Government talks end without success | British Medical Association


----------



## teqniq (Jan 10, 2016)

Unions to ‘stand with doctors on the picket line'



> Firefighters, bakers and civil servants are planning to join junior doctors on the picket line when they strike over pay and conditions on 12 January.
> 
> Matt Wrack, general secretary at the Fire Brigades Union, said: “Our people who have the day off work will go along to the pickets in support of junior doctors.” Ian Hodson, president at the Bakers, Food and Allied Workers Union, said he “will stand with our junior doctors”. ...


----------



## 8ball (Jan 10, 2016)

What's urban's opinion on the most effective way of supporting the strike action on Tuesday (I'm not in work that day)?


----------



## existentialist (Jan 10, 2016)

8ball said:


> What's urban's opinion on the most effective way of supporting the strike action on Tuesday (I'm not in work that day)?


I can't speak for Urban, but I would have thought that demonstrating visible solidarity with the doctors is the best way to go. The Government will be doing its level best to paint this as a series of isolated actions by a hard core of disgruntled doctors out to make political hay at the expense of We, The People. So the more The People photographed alongside picketing doctors the less weight such a fable will have.


----------



## treelover (Jan 10, 2016)

8ball said:


> What's urban's opinion on the most effective way of supporting the strike action on Tuesday (I'm not in work that day)?



I am just making coffee and am going to take it to the picket line, and thats it, not staying, I am not sure how comfortable they will be with lots of leftists joining them, some will, but many won't.

certainly not paper sellers, I suspect they will be asked to leave


----------



## brogdale (Jan 10, 2016)

existentialist said:


> I can't speak for Urban, but I would have thought that demonstrating visible solidarity with the doctors is the best way to go. The Government will be doing its level best to paint this as a series of isolated actions by a hard core of disgruntled doctors out to make political hay at the expense of We, The People. So the more The People photographed alongside picketing doctors the less weight such a fable will have.


That.
Or executing Hunt.


----------



## existentialist (Jan 10, 2016)

brogdale said:


> That.
> Or executing Hunt.


Hunt is a tool. The person that needs executing is the one holding his handle. 

Although if, in the process, Hunt should accidentally be dropped upon his head and no doctor is available to treat the depressed fracture, well, _que sera, sera_.


----------



## kropotkin (Jan 10, 2016)

8ball said:


> What's urban's opinion on the most effective way of supporting the strike action on Tuesday (I'm not in work that day)?


Either visit the picket at your local hospital (most start at either 745 or 8, and go on till 12 at least)  or go along to show support at a a "meet the doctors" event: we are running these in public places near the hospitals to explain our position to anyone interested...


----------



## kropotkin (Jan 10, 2016)

8ball said:


> What's urban's opinion on the most effective way of supporting the strike action on Tuesday (I'm not in work that day)?


And thanks for the support.


----------



## killer b (Jan 10, 2016)

treelover said:


> I am just making coffee and am going to take it to the picket line, and thats it, not staying, I am not sure how comfortable they will be with lots of leftists joining them, some will, but many won't.
> 
> certainly not paper sellers, I suspect they will be asked to leave


you're Obsessed.
I've never wanted to sell a paper before. I do now...


----------



## existentialist (Jan 10, 2016)

kropotkin said:


> And thanks for the support.


You're going to need all the support you can get: whatever Cunt & Co have done so far, it is as nothing to what they are going to throw at you by the time Strike Day comes around.

I'm in Wales, so no pickets to join or support, but I'm trying to do my bit online, publicising, arguing, and so on.

More power to you all - if ever it was needed, now is the time.


----------



## superfly101 (Jan 10, 2016)

existentialist said:


> You're going to need all the support you can get: whatever Cunt & Co have done so far, it is as nothing to what they are going to throw at you by the time Strike Day comes around.



Like this from yesterday?

*Moet medics: High life of docs’ leaders who are heading up NHS strike*

Moet medics: High life of docs’ leaders who are heading up NHS strike - Google Search


----------



## free spirit (Jan 11, 2016)

the sun are getting slaughtered in their comments feed on that article.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jan 11, 2016)

Shall be down the Royal Surrey after walking the dog before work, it's Hunt's local hospital and the staff there patched me up a treat last month when injured myself. We live in a townhouse and I was saddened that Hunt's majority is so large that he did no canvassing last year, my stairs can be quite slippy and a good, hard shove in the back will see him badly injured...


----------



## PeterTCA (Jan 12, 2016)

*"Occupational Hazards" recently published a supplement "Something Should be Done". An account of Hospital workers who declined strike action and instead created a series of 
"imaginative  tactics". Convinced me that Anarchist industrial action should always be characterised by cunning and imagination. The media and management well-skilled in
reacting to "strike action". Good luck.*


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 12, 2016)

PeterTCA said:


> *"Occupational Hazards" recently published a supplement "Something Should be Done". An account of Hospital workers who declined strike action and instead created a series of
> "imaginative  tactics". Convinced me that Anarchist industrial action should always be characterised by cunning and imagination. The media and management well-skilled in
> reacting to "strike action". Good luck.*


And sometimes by striking.


----------



## gawkrodger (Jan 12, 2016)

every tube station I've walked past so far this morning has had doctors outside it leafletting, handing out stickers etc with seemingly v. positive responses. Will be wandering over to UCH in a bit for their picket line


----------



## gosub (Jan 12, 2016)

A quick thank you to the junior doctor who during the course of his 13 hour shift at Kingston on Friday saved my sister in laws life.

This strike has my full support.


----------



## J Ed (Jan 12, 2016)

It looks like a very effective strike, doesn't it?


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 12, 2016)

Bristol docs doing a _meet the drs_ thing in the centre (this on top of the pickets at southmead and the BRI). Not looking very unruly.


----------



## killer b (Jan 12, 2016)

Yeah, they're only allowed a certain number on the picket, so the rest are doing stuff in the community (have been for months). Excellent strategy imo.


----------



## J Ed (Jan 12, 2016)

killer b said:


> Yeah, they're only allowed a certain number on the picket, so the rest are doing stuff in the community (have been for months). Excellent strategy imo.



I agree. Interestingly very similar to the tactics used during the Chicago teacher strikes.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jan 12, 2016)

Plenty of docs outside the Royal Surrey this morning, stopped by and said thank you.



gosub said:


> A quick thank you to the junior doctor who during the course of his 13 hour shift at Kingston on Friday saved my sister in laws life.
> 
> This strike has my full support.


 


Who doesn't have a tale of these wonderful people doing great things? When BB2 had meningitis one lovely doctor on a 12 hour shift didn't go home for 36 hours as he wanted to ensure that she got his personal attention throughout the worst of it. I would lay down my life for my kids, what do I owe this man? Hunt and his mates can just fucking do one.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jan 12, 2016)

Are the hospitals dealing with more or less scabs than usual?


----------



## Guineveretoo (Jan 12, 2016)

Croydon University Hospital has picket lines at both main entrances. They seem to be well organised and well supported.


----------



## treelover (Jan 12, 2016)

Latest news and updates from today's junior doctors' strike


----------



## gawkrodger (Jan 12, 2016)

I see one of my reasonably local trusts - Sandwell are acting the bastard


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jan 12, 2016)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Are the hospitals dealing with more or less scabs than usual?


----------



## Farmer Giles (Jan 12, 2016)

free spirit said:


> the sun are getting slaughtered in their comments feed on that article.



Rightly so....

This "Moët Medic" Smeared By The Sun Was Volunteering In Nepal


----------



## killer b (Jan 12, 2016)

treelover you'll be pleased to hear the papersellers were sent on their way at my mate's hospital.


----------



## kropotkin (Jan 12, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Bristol docs doing a _meet the drs_ thing in the centre (this on top of the pickets at southmead and the BRI). Not looking very unruly.


We ran 5 Meet The Doctors events in Bristol (Bear Pit, Fountains opposite Hippodrome, North Street, Clifton Triangle, Turbo Island).
It was very well supported by the public (at least at the North Street one), with overt support from practically everyone who responded.


----------



## gawkrodger (Jan 12, 2016)

popped over to UCH






massive public support. Literally 75% of vehicles which drove past beeped horns in support (though high concentration of buses and taxis may have skewed that figure upwards)


----------



## Struwwelpeter (Jan 12, 2016)

... meanwhile, the BBC continues to spout government's spin.   Headlines on their website reporting #unt's press releases, not the public support that they seem to be getting everywhere.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 12, 2016)

kropotkin said:


> We ran 5 Meet The Doctors events in Bristol (Bear Pit, Fountains opposite Hippodrome, North Street, Clifton Triangle, Turbo Island).
> It was very well supported by the public (at least at the North Street one), with overt support from practically everyone who responded.


In the old days you'd have known all the turbo island denizens by name.


----------



## treelover (Jan 12, 2016)

Massive in Sheff, hundreds of doctors, medics, etc, lots of horns beeping, took some chocolates, spoke to a medic in his late thirties, he says that most are very reluctant to do the third strike as it is half term and the consultants who are covering for them have booked time off, etc.


----------



## Zabo (Jan 12, 2016)




----------



## teqniq (Jan 13, 2016)

Proper car crash shit.


----------



## bimble (Jan 13, 2016)

gawkrodger said:


> popped over to UCH
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Same at Kings Hospital  (Denmark Hill) yesterday .. at least half the passing cars were beeping - a police went past thumbs upping out of all the windows even


----------



## dessiato (Jan 13, 2016)

Those of you who are know of my accident record will be aware how very much I owe the NHS. I am fully supportive of the doctors, and the nurses/midwives in their fights against the government. If I was in the UK I'd happily join the pickets. For the first time in my life I feel I must stand up, visibly and vocally, and make sure I counted. 

But I'm not in the UK. So I write to MPs, and talk to people back home trying to be certain that they know why the NHS needs us. We will miss it when it's gone.


----------



## nino_savatte (Jan 15, 2016)

This is sort of related.  Senior doctors at a Nottingham hospital quit rather than work for Circle.


> An NHS hospital has been forced to scrap highly rated services for patients with severe skin conditions including skin cancer after an “exodus” of senior doctors reluctant to work for a private-sector subcontractor.
> 
> Nottingham University Hospitals Trust said it would no longer be able to provide acute adult dermatology, including emergency care, after losing six of its eight consultants.
> 
> ...


----------



## treelover (Jan 15, 2016)

They will have to watch out, all those clenched fists, the D/M etc, will mark them down as Marxists, Trots, etc.


----------



## existentialist (Jan 15, 2016)

nino_savatte said:


> This is sort of related.  Senior doctors at a Nottingham hospital quit rather than work for Circle.


It's going to make it a bit harder for the government to characterise junior doctors as bolshie for objecting to the creeping privatisation of the NHS when senior doctors are doing things like this. Good for them.

Though one wonders whether this was a total surprise to the commissioners when they decided to outsource this service, or whether there is some ulterior motive.

Now, Circle have presumably contracted to provide this service (having unwisely failed to guarantee that they'd be able to staff it), and will now have to either replace these consultants, or fail to deliver on the contract. How seriously do we expect the commissioners to hold their feet to the fire and penalise them appropriately for not fulfilling their half of the bargain?


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jan 15, 2016)

existentialist said:


> It's going to make it a bit harder for the government to characterise junior doctors as bolshie for objecting to the creeping privatisation of the NHS when senior doctors are doing things like this. Good for them.
> 
> Though one wonders whether this was a total surprise to the commissioners when they decided to outsource this service, or whether there is some ulterior motive.
> 
> Now, Circle have presumably contracted to provide this service (having unwisely failed to guarantee that they'd be able to staff it), and will now have to either replace these consultants, or fail to deliver on the contract. How seriously do we expect the commissioners to hold their feet to the fire and penalise them appropriately for not fulfilling their half of the bargain?


That was 2014 btw so presumably there we can now tell.


----------



## existentialist (Jan 15, 2016)

FridgeMagnet said:


> That was 2014 btw so presumably there we can now tell.


Oh, was it? Hmm. *wonders where we might find that out*


----------



## BigTom (Jan 15, 2016)

existentialist said:


> Oh, was it? Hmm. *wonders where we might find that out*



Freedom of Information (FoI) request? Circle are a private company, but this is a govt. contract so I think should still be caught under the FoI legislation.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jan 15, 2016)

There was apparently a report last June - Nottingham dermatology privatisation 'unmitigated disaster' - BBC News - which said the privatisation was an "unmitigated disaster" but, er, that was nobody's fault.

Also NUH response: Dermatology review - Nottingham University Hospitals NHS Trust


----------



## superfly101 (Jan 16, 2016)

> Our bid to provide dermatology services from 2013 was not successful.  NUH consultants were obliged to transfer their employment to Circle following award of the contract.



This is all you need to know about why both pay and contractual terms are being obliterated.

Oh and the fact that NHS staff will br TUPED into the private Health Care provider when they are awarded the contract.

Call me a cynic.......

You do have to wonder if bids that beat existing NHS departments and privatise services based on "cost savings" have been built around this new wage cost/terms model?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 16, 2016)

superfly101 said:


> You do have to wonder if bids that beat existing NHS departments and privatise services based on "cost savings" have been built around this new wage cost/terms model?



In this case it looks as though the trust has been left with the obligation to provide children's dermatology services while the adult service has been farmed out to the private sector. Which doesn't work if what you had to start with was an integrated service. 

You can't look at cost savings on the basis of chopping up healthcare provision into little chunks and only considering them all in isolation. You will lose economies of scale and you'll create more bureaucracy. And it's all based on the assumption that patients only ever turn up with one problem at a time.

What happens if you have a complex condition that requires input from several different specialists to diagnose and treat, when all those specialists are working for different (and competing) providers in different hospitals? Not only are we letting bean-counters tear health provision to pieces, but they're bean counters who can't even fucking count


----------



## FabricLiveBaby! (Jan 16, 2016)

As an aside, I hate this term "junior doctor" seems to me it's a cynical Tory attempt to steal the narritive and infantilise doctors some if whom have 10+ years medical experience. It's a catch all term. 

A junior doctor is basically anyone who isn't a consultant.

We need to take this narritive back.  Can't we call just call it a doctor's strike from now on?  Seems more apt.


----------



## ffsear (Jan 17, 2016)

People need stop using the NHS as a political weapon in their outdated 1980's left vs right, class war style politics.


----------



## kropotkin (Jan 17, 2016)

ffsear said:


> People need stop using the NHS as a political weapon in their outdated 1980's left vs right, class war style politics.


Thanks for that


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 17, 2016)

treelover said:


> They will have to watch out, all those clenched fists, the D/M etc, will mark them down as Marxists, Trots, etc.



So what? They're just posing ffs. Nothing wrong with that


----------



## treelover (Jan 17, 2016)

It wasn't meant to be serious, bit suprising if anything.


----------



## existentialist (Jan 18, 2016)

And Cameron weighs in:

Junior doctors must not block NHS progress, says Cameron


> David Cameron has repeated the threat to impose a new contract on junior doctors without their consent, arguing they cannot be allowed to “block progress in our NHS”.
> In comments that risk further infuriating junior doctors, the prime minister said the government needed to reserve the right to bring in changes opposed by medics.


I imagine that this is just more brinksmanship posturing, but I wonder if Cameron has considered the likely outcomes of this whole strategy.

One of the main planks of the doctors' argument has been that fewer people are willing to consider working in the NHS over time, and that many doctors are saying they will leave if this contract is imposed.

Now, one possibility is that it is _they_ who are engaging in brinksmanship, and perhaps Cameron believes that, if the contract is imposed, they'll just suck it up and carry on. But the evidence seems to suggest that not only are doctors already disappearing off to places like Australia post-qualification, but that there are plenty of other avenues - not necessarily front-line medical - that are open to people with that level of training. And, with the continuing squeeze on student grants and support, the already expensive business of qualifying as a doctor is further and further out of the reach of more and more people.

Is he being much smarter than we realise, or is he really prepared to create a situation where so few doctors are prepared to consider an NHS career that the system collapses, not because of funding itself, but because this government has comprehensively strangled the supply of medics available to the NHS?


----------



## treelover (Jan 19, 2016)

Junior doctors' strike suspended as talks to end contract row continue

Next weeks strike, suspended, but might work out best as the third one would have co-incided with half term when consultants(who have been covering) are off..


----------



## Hocus Eye. (Jan 19, 2016)

treelover said:


> Junior doctors' strike suspended as talks to end contract row continue
> 
> Next weeks strike, suspended, but might work out best as the third one would have co-incided with half term when consultants(who have been covering) are off..


Half term, what has half term got to do with the price of fish?


----------



## brogdale (Jan 19, 2016)

Hocus Eye. said:


> Half term, what has half term got to do with the price of fish?


Skiing.
They all go.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Feb 6, 2016)

March in London today ahead of the next strike, btw, from Waterloo Place to Downing Street. Didn't seem to get a lot of publicity tbh which seems to have affected the turnout, but we'll see.


----------



## teqniq (Feb 9, 2016)

Deal to end junior doctors agreed by everyone - until Jeremy Hunt vetoed it


----------



## NoXion (Feb 9, 2016)

teqniq said:


> Deal to end junior doctors agreed by everyone - until Jeremy Hunt vetoed it



I think the word "strike" is meant to be in there, unless Jeremy Hunt is vetoing plans to have all junior doctors shot.

Which, given the content of the link, seems unlikely. What a cunt.


----------



## jakethesnake (Feb 9, 2016)

I work in a day centre for the homeless. I took a call today from a doctor planning to go on strike tomorrow asking if a few of them could volunteer some time with us seeing as how they weren't going to be at work.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 9, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Skiing.
> They all go.


on the days they aren't playing golf


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Feb 10, 2016)

Have a listen to this item on Radio 4's Today programme: 10/02/2016, Today - BBC Radio 4

The bit I'm refering to is from 0850:

Junior doctors in England will go on strike for 24 hours from 8am this morning in a dispute with the government over pay and working hours. Reena Aggarwal is a junior doctor specialising in obstetrics and gynaecology and Dr Henry Goodall was a GP until 1991.​Truly desperate stuff from Dr Goodall. It was the icing on the cake provided by the earlier contribution from Chris Hopson (chief executive of NHS Providers) who was all for a headlong race to the bottom when it comes to terms and conditions.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## brogdale (Feb 10, 2016)

Utter scum.


----------



## nino_savatte (Feb 10, 2016)

Meanwhile at Hinchinbrooke Hospital, Tory MP, Mark Simmonds, rakes in 50k a year as their 'strategic advisor'.
Patients told to soil themselves while hospital pays Tory MP £50k pa for 10 hours work


----------



## Sprocket. (Feb 10, 2016)

jakethesnake said:


> I work in a day centre for the homeless. I took a call today from a doctor planning to go on strike tomorrow asking if a few of them could volunteer some time with us seeing as how they weren't going to be at work.



I am sure there will be doctors volunteering today for various causes.
But I am also sure you will hear or read little of their work from the media!


----------



## Sprocket. (Feb 10, 2016)

If Jeremy Hunt worked in industry and his opening stance in negotiations was, if I don't like what I hear I am imposing the new contracts anyway (paraphrased). He would probably be looking for a new job himself.
Compromise and open minds solve disputes not threats.
On the other hand the Tories have managed something that no other government has, uniting consultants and junior doctors. I tip my hat to the clueless.


----------



## jakethesnake (Feb 10, 2016)

Sprocket. said:


> I am sure there will be doctors volunteering today for various causes.
> But I am also sure you will hear or read little of their work from the media!


Yup, I'm sure you're right. The charity I work for is going to put something out on the Facebook page/Twitter. It's been very nice having them here and one of them made some very good chicken soup. Solidarity with the doctors!


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Feb 10, 2016)

The Dr Henry Goodall on the Today Programme is the same Dr Goodall who as President of the Society of Occupational Medicine welcomed the coalition government's review into the sickness absence system. Indeed he was so taken with it that in the Society's news letter he said the following:

This is the first Government in history to use the words ‘WORK’ and ‘HEALTH’ in the same sentence. They​certainly see us as part of the solution, not as part of the problem. While the Benefits situation is most
challenging for Government at this time, we can be part of the force for progress and must take this opportunity
to push forward towards new and flexible ways of delivering our advice and experience to managers and
employees alike.​Contrast his appreciation with that of the TUC and Henry's position becomes even clearer. Brendan Barber, then TUC General Secretary said this about the review:

If this were to be a genuine attempt to support those on long-term sickness get back to work then the TUC would welcome it with open arms. However we are concerned that it will end up as just another part of the Government's cost-saving onslaught on the income and rights of those at work, and those on benefits.
The fact that the review is being conducted by a leading voice of employers' interests, with no corresponding involvement from unions representing workers affected by sickness absence, gives us little confidence in the outcome.​So we have a government friendly, employer friendly Dr, who as President of the Society of Occupational Medicine (dedicated to the protection of the health of people in the workplace and the prevention of occupational injuries and disease), is given a national platform to advocate 140hr + working weeks for junior doctors...we live in a funny old world to be sure.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## Lord Camomile (Feb 10, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Utter scum.


That tired old "others don't get something therefore you shouldn't" sadly has far more traction than it should. People seem to miss that it's not zero sum, and if someone else gets something it doesn't mean they can't get it too. Everyone should be paid better for working unsociable hours, ffs!


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Feb 10, 2016)

Lord Camomile said:


> That tired old "others don't get something therefore you shouldn't" sadly has far more traction than it should. People seem to miss that it's not zero sum, and if someone else gets something it doesn't mean they can't get it too. Everyone should be paid better for working unsociable hours, ffs!



Stop looking up at the stars and get your eyes back on the gutter; aspiration indeed...whatever next.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## Lord Camomile (Feb 10, 2016)

#IAmTheDoctorWho and #IAmThePatientWho are both well worth reading through if you have the time


----------



## Lord Camomile (Feb 10, 2016)

I just defended the strike on Facebook under comments on the BBC Trending page. I really shouldn't have, especially given how ill-informed I am about it all


----------



## weltweit (Feb 10, 2016)




----------



## Guineveretoo (Feb 11, 2016)

Bastard Tories. 

We will fight contract imposition, says BMA - BBC News


----------



## LeslieB (Feb 11, 2016)

As so often happens, the wrong people are on strike here.

In Americas 'fight for $15' is taking place.  Home care workers, child care workers, supermarket and fast food workers are on strike.

In Britain 'junior' doctors- who already earn more than most people can ever dream of earning, and will earn even more in years to come are on strike.

Says it all IMHO.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 11, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> As so often happens, the wrong people are on strike here.
> 
> In Americas 'fight for $15' is taking place.  Home care workers, child care workers, supermarket and fast food workers are on strike.
> 
> ...


Looks like you've bought the vermin line on what the strike is about.


----------



## killer b (Feb 11, 2016)

I see you've an in depth understanding of the dispute there, les. 

'says it all'.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Feb 11, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> As so often happens, the wrong people are on strike here.
> 
> In Americas 'fight for $15' is taking place.  Home care workers, child care workers, supermarket and fast food workers are on strike.
> 
> ...




Why are the doctors on strike?

Louis MacNeice


----------



## Guineveretoo (Feb 11, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> As so often happens, the wrong people are on strike here.
> 
> In Americas 'fight for $15' is taking place.  Home care workers, child care workers, supermarket and fast food workers are on strike.
> 
> ...


They are the ones on strike because, right now, it is their contracts,and therefore their working hours, under threat. Once the bastard Tories have shafted them, they will move on to other medical workers, none of whom will get a pay rise, and all of whom will end up working more hours for no more money. 

This government have no interest in working towards a safe seven day service, or they would not be imposing contracts on junior doctors which will see them working such long hours that they will put patients' at risk!!

Besides, junior doctors are not paid as much as some people seem to think!


----------



## killer b (Feb 11, 2016)

22 grand starting salary for yer junior docs. Surely most people can dream of reaching those heady heights?


----------



## Idris2002 (Feb 11, 2016)

Guineveretoo said:


> They are the ones on strike because, right now, it is their contracts,and therefore their working hours, under threat. Once the bastard Tories have shafted them, they will move on to other medical workers, none of whom will get a pay rise, and all of whom will end up working more hours for no more money.
> 
> This government have no interest in working towards a safe seven day service, or they would not be imposing contracts on junior doctors which will see them working such long hours that they will put patients' at risk!!
> 
> Besides, junior doctors are not paid as much as some people seem to think!



Tu stultus es.


----------



## LeslieB (Feb 11, 2016)

Guineveretoo said:


> Besides, junior doctors are not paid as much as some people seem to think!



"According to figures from the NHS Employers Organisation, the average total salary for a doctor in training is around £37,000."

Junior doctors' pay: How does your job compare? - BBC News



killer b said:


> 22 grand starting salary for yer junior docs. Surely most people can dream of reaching those heady heights?



Yes, but that is only for the first year. Outside of London, £22,000 is actually quite good money, and as a starting salary it would be considered very good indeed. 

I'm not saying doctors should be on the minimum wage or anything, but they wouldn't be top of my list of needy causes either...


----------



## Sprocket. (Feb 11, 2016)

killer b said:


> 22 grand starting salary for yer junior docs. Surely most people can dream of reaching those heady heights?



£22k and having to repay all those loans at 30% interest, as well as the annual fees for membership of whichever branch they want to specialise in. Easy life, they are just being unreasonable!
Plus they are members of the most militant trade union(says Ken Clarke).


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Feb 11, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> "According to figures from the NHS Employers Organisation, the average total salary for a doctor in training is around £37,000."
> 
> Junior doctors' pay: How does your job compare? - BBC News
> 
> ...



Do you think that attacking the terms and conditions of junior doctors will benefit the terms and conditions of health care assistants?

Louis MacNeice


----------



## killer b (Feb 11, 2016)

I'm not sure if we should rise to this dick btw. It's not really about wages anyway.


----------



## LeslieB (Feb 11, 2016)

Sprocket. said:


> £22k and having to repay all those loans at 30% interest,



Do you have sources/ full figures for the 30% interest? If it is a student loan, the interest rate will be *much* lower than that, and repayments linked to salary so they will hardly pay anything until they start moving up the salary brackets........


----------



## Sprocket. (Feb 11, 2016)

Anyway this isn't really about salaries it's about causing upset within the NHS.
Spinning it that it is useless and selling it to private health care providers.
That's the issue. Tory tactic show or if not possible make something fail and convince the public that it is nothing to do with Tory policy. Then offload or shut it.
They have hundreds of years experience in it. Bastards!


----------



## Sprocket. (Feb 11, 2016)

LeslieB is Ian Duncan Smith and I claim my five pounds!


----------



## agricola (Feb 11, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> Do you have sources/ full figures for the 30% interest? If it is a student loan, the interest rate will be *much* lower than that, and repayments linked to salary so they will hardly pay anything until they start moving up the salary brackets........



... so yes, they won't have made any dent in the nearly fifty grand that they owe until they get to the stage where they are going to find it very difficult to pay any of it back.


----------



## killer b (Feb 11, 2016)

If you're in London there's a protest outside teh DoH at 5 today btw


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Feb 11, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> *As so often happens, the wrong people are on strike here.*



Care to supply some evidence in support of this generalisation; or was it just an unsubstantiated, anti-striker, rhetorical flourish?

Louis MacNeice


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Feb 11, 2016)

Sprocket. said:


> LeslieB is Ian Duncan Smith and I claim my five pounds!



A fuckin' tedious pain the fuckin' arse, & make no mistake!


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Feb 11, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> As so often happens, the wrong people are on strike here.
> 
> In Americas 'fight for $15' is taking place.  Home care workers, child care workers, supermarket and fast food workers are on strike.
> 
> ...



Fuck you you neolib twat.


----------



## Sprocket. (Feb 11, 2016)

Not heard anything from any other union yet except the update I just received from Unite re the situation.

Junior doctor contract imposition ‘nuclear option’, says Unite


----------



## Sprocket. (Feb 11, 2016)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Fuck you you neolib twat.



Now, now reverend.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Feb 11, 2016)

Sprocket. said:


> Now, now reverend.



Only typing what others are thinking, it's the man flu what made me do it.

Not enough lamp posts for these neolibs


----------



## agricola (Feb 11, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> As so often happens, the wrong people are on strike here.
> 
> In Americas 'fight for $15' is taking place. * Home care workers, child care workers, supermarket and fast food workers are on strike.*
> 
> ...



It is hard to go on strike when you are on a zero hours contract.


----------



## LeslieB (Feb 11, 2016)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Only typing what others are thinking, it's the man flu what made me do it.


Get well soon.


----------



## Lord Camomile (Feb 11, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> In Britain 'junior' doctors- who already earn more than most people can ever dream of earning, and will earn even more in years to come are on strike.





Guineveretoo said:


> They are the ones on strike because, right now, it is their contracts,and therefore their working hours, under threat. Once the bastard Tories have shafted them, they will move on to other medical workers, none of whom will get a pay rise, and all of whom will end up working more hours for no more money.


Reading through things it does sound like the junior doctors are seen/see themselves as the guards at the floodgates, so to speak, in the sense that if this goes through then everyone else is next. They're standing up for themselves, and everyone else who is standing behind them, sort of thing.

Also, I'll keep repeating it: it's not either/or, just because one group is able to fight for better wages doesn't mean another can't/shouldn't. A large, _large_ majority of the population should have better wages, in relative terms at least. We should be lifting each other up, not dragging each other down.


----------



## Sprocket. (Feb 11, 2016)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Not enough lamp posts for these neolibs



Tory imposed local authority cuts!


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Feb 11, 2016)

Boils my piss.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Feb 11, 2016)

Lord Camomile said:


> Reading through things it does sound like the junior doctors are seen/see themselves as the guards at the floodgates, so to speak, in the sense that if this goes through then everyone else is next. They're standing up for themselves, and everyone else who is standing behind them, sort of thing.



There's deffo a trickle down feeling with this, no doubt about it. What chance do council workers on 12k a year stand if Gov can change doctors contracts at a whim. We're all in this together!


----------



## Sprocket. (Feb 11, 2016)

As ever an attack on one is an attack on all, sadly this truth and it's consequences are apparently meaningless to many in this country these days.


----------



## Lord Camomile (Feb 11, 2016)

Sprocket. said:


> As ever an attack on one is an attack on all, sadly this truth and it's consequences are apparently meaningless to many in this country these days.


I'm organising a screening of Pride in April and I'm starting to think this will be a good theme for a Q&A afterwards - how we should all be supporting each others' fights, not just tackling our own disputes. For example, I'm going to look into how my union can support the junior doctors.

Lots of reading and learning to do, obviously...


----------



## Sprocket. (Feb 11, 2016)

Lord Camomile, this is a relevant way we can all show support and concern. I know over the years we all at some point have taken a stand and got involved over a wide range of issues. It would be a boost to those less fortunate if by galvanising the nation to stand by the doctors, but more so the NHS and show some defiance and that not everyone agrees with this vicious little cabal that currently occupies the cabinet.
I just wish something would shake the people of this country out of their torpor and wake them before they reach that cliff edge and lose the greatest service left from the formation of our welfare state.


----------



## LeslieB (Feb 11, 2016)

Never mind trickle down. Let's have some trickle up for a change!


----------



## existentialist (Feb 11, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> As so often happens, the wrong people are on strike here.
> 
> In Americas 'fight for $15' is taking place.  Home care workers, child care workers, supermarket and fast food workers are on strike.
> 
> ...


Your saying it certainly says it all. I think you'll find the politics of envy train vis a vis junior doctors left the station a long time ago. Nobody seriously thinks they're greedy overpaid fat cats largeing it up at the taxpayer's expense - that notion only exists in the rather half-arsed (and half-hearted) propaganda exuding from the Department of Health.


----------



## existentialist (Feb 11, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> Never mind trickle down. Let's have some trickle up for a change!


What do you mean?


----------



## Sprocket. (Feb 11, 2016)

killer b said:


> If you're in London there's a protest outside teh DoH at 5 today btw



Any updates at all kb?
Raised voices and lots of tutting or bricks at fifty paces!


----------



## LeslieB (Feb 11, 2016)

existentialist said:


> What do you mean?



Sorry, it was aimed at Mr Bishies comment, bottom of previous page.


----------



## killer b (Feb 11, 2016)

Sprocket. said:


> Any updates at all kb?
> Raised voices and lots of tutting or bricks at fifty paces!


not seen owt sorry.

this is 'funny' - there was a (short) list of 20 NHS trust chief execs given in Dalton's letter to Hunt who apparently supported the imposition of the contract - on being contacted to confirm, 7 of them (so far) have said they did no such thing...


----------



## killer b (Feb 11, 2016)

Sprocket. said:


> Any updates at all kb?
> Raised voices and lots of tutting or bricks at fifty paces!


----------



## brogdale (Feb 11, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> Sorry, it was aimed at Mr Bishies comment, bottom of previous page.


Find another forum pal.


----------



## LeslieB (Feb 11, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Find another forum pal.



Yes Mr Moderator Sir!


----------



## Lord Camomile (Feb 11, 2016)

killer b said:


>


Showed this to a colleague who chuckled and said "let's get Hunt sacked". Sadly, I'm not sure that would stop anything 

Unless... if public opinion was so against it would the government throw Hunt under the bus as they u-turned?


----------



## killer b (Feb 11, 2016)

They'd throw anyone under the bus if political expediency required it. But Hunt is only doing his job, if they moved him elsewhere they'd only put someone else in to do the same thing.


----------



## Lord Camomile (Feb 11, 2016)

Early contender for Brass Neck 2016:


> Jeremy Hunt launches urgent inquiry into junior doctors' morale


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Feb 11, 2016)

The impositions will continue until morale improves.


----------



## teqniq (Feb 11, 2016)




----------



## teqniq (Feb 11, 2016)

Watch Jeremy Hunt literally ignore the concerns of a junior doctor


----------



## brogdale (Feb 11, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> Yes Mr Moderator Sir!


I'm no Mod, and they won't kick you off if you abide by the CoC, it was just advice to save wasted time/grief.


----------



## Celyn (Feb 11, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> As so often happens, the wrong people are on strike here.
> 
> In Americas 'fight for $15' is taking place.  Home care workers, child care workers, supermarket and fast food workers are on strike.
> 
> ...



In *Britain*, eh?  I thought the strike was in England. The reason this is worth pointing out is that it does seem to indicate that you haven't really read up very much on the strike.


----------



## LeslieB (Feb 11, 2016)

Sorry didn't realise this was an England only dispute.  

My mistake.


----------



## redsquirrel (Feb 11, 2016)

killer b said:


> They'd throw anyone under the bus if political expediency required it. But Hunt is only doing his job, if they moved him elsewhere they'd only put someone else in to do the same thing.


Cameron seems to use him to do the shitty jobs, he knows that just about everyone thinks Hunt's slime already so Hunt can be as unpopular as he needs.

Anyway solidarity to the doctors.


----------



## teqniq (Feb 11, 2016)

They are all slime really, bit of a race to the bottom.


----------



## Struwwelpeter (Feb 11, 2016)

There is one area many of us can legally support the doctors with some secondary action.  As patients (or customers as they will no doubt soon be calling us) we can refuse any elective treatment at weekends requesting a weekday appointment, thus rendering Hunt's 7-day NHS pointless.  

I suspect the whole 7-day NHS thing is nothing to do with patient welfare and a lot to do with 9-5 firms not wanting to give employees time off for medical appointments during working hours.  And the whole dispute is a ruse to get doctors to leave the NHS so that they can employ lots of cheaper overseas doctors via private agencies of course.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 11, 2016)

Petition. 

FWIW I signed.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Feb 11, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Petition.
> 
> FWIW I signed.



Shame it isn't a petition for beheading in the Tower (the good auld days)

Signed all the same.


----------



## gawkrodger (Feb 11, 2016)

Mods, may it be worthwhile merging the two threads on this?

Anyway, it would be a real shame if people turned up to this and let him know everyone's feelings

Drinks & Canapés With Rt Hon Jeremy Hunt


----------



## Guineveretoo (Feb 11, 2016)

Sprocket. said:


> Not heard anything from any other union yet except the update I just received from Unite re the situation.
> 
> Junior doctor contract imposition ‘nuclear option’, says Unite



Here is another one which was sent to me today. 

Hospital Consultants and Specialists Association (HCSA)

PRESS STATEMENT: Junior Doctors contract imposition will have 'dire consequences'


----------



## Smangus (Feb 11, 2016)

Lord Camomile said:


> Showed this to a colleague who chuckled and said "let's get Hunt sacked". Sadly, I'm not sure that would stop anything
> 
> Unless... if public opinion was so against it would the government throw Hunt under the bus as they u-turned?



This generation of Tories seem to think that this is their miners strike, they won't back down and can't afford to be seen to.

eta, hope I am wrong about this.


----------



## Guineveretoo (Feb 11, 2016)

Smangus said:


> This generation of Tories seem to think that this is their miners strike, they won't back down and can't afford to be seen to.
> 
> eta, hope I am wrong about this.


Now you mention it, it does have a bit of a feeling about it


----------



## Celyn (Feb 11, 2016)

Smangus said:


> This generation of Tories seem to think that this is their miners strike, they won't back down and can't afford to be seen to.
> 
> eta, hope I am wrong about this.



I really hope you're wrong. But ...


----------



## Smangus (Feb 11, 2016)

Celyn said:


> I really hope you're wrong. But ...



So do I. But I think they may have bitten off more than they can chew. Especially with the consultants next in line.


----------



## quimcunx (Feb 11, 2016)

1234 we know what your contract's for
5678 tearing up the welfare state.

Got to the crux of the matter.

e2a, not sure if that's visible.  docs outside DOH tonight.


----------



## gawkrodger (Feb 11, 2016)

my sister (what's the opposite of the black sheep of the family? Whatever it is, that's her) is a junior doctor. She said consultants, jnr doctors, nurses are all spitting mad in hospital at the moment and the mood is very combative


----------



## 03gills (Feb 11, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Utter scum.




I don't understand this 'if I don't get it, no one should, attitude, Isn't That 'the politics of envy' which is something the Tories are supposed to be dead against? I mean how bitter & short sighted do you have to be?

For example, I work in retail & am expected to work a seven days rota, don't receive extra for Sundays & Bank Holidays so by rights i should have a 'fuck em' attitude... but guess what? I don't. In fact, I'd love to see the law changed so that extra cash for unsocial hours & days is the norm for _*everyone*_. 

It's not about modernising pay rates, or recognising the 24/7 nature of modern nursing any of that bollocks, _*it's about employers doing the bare minimum of what they can get away with*_. 

I mean would all UK employers be offering a minimum of 6.70ph to all over 21's if they weren't required to by law? There are good eggs out there that would, I've no doubt (current job included) but without a guaranteed pay floor, I'd wager a bet that alot wouldn't.

After all, If the law doesn't require them to do it, then they won't fecking do it. This is why we have employment law in the first place.


----------



## existentialist (Feb 11, 2016)

Smangus said:


> So do I. But I think they may have bitten off more than they can chew. Especially with the consultants next in line.


And, I believe, nursing staff too, sometime soon.


----------



## Lord Camomile (Feb 11, 2016)

gawkrodger said:


> my sister (what's the opposite of the black sheep of the family? Whatever it is, that's her) is a junior doctor. She said consultants, jnr doctors, nurses are all spitting mad in hospital at the moment and the mood is very combative


Which is exactly the sort of mood you want people in in an already highly pressurised and stressful work environment 

It must be horrible right now, I'm angrier about this than I have been about anything in a long time, and it's not my career, my life, my colleagues, my friends. Horrible and terrifying


----------



## Lord Camomile (Feb 11, 2016)

Smangus said:


> This generation of Tories seem to think that this is their miners strike, they won't back down and can't afford to be seen to.
> 
> eta, hope I am wrong about this.


That's scarily plausible, too


----------



## LeslieB (Feb 12, 2016)

Oh yes those poor working class junior doctors going down t' pit every day.


----------



## killer b (Feb 12, 2016)

go away you weirdo.


----------



## teqniq (Feb 12, 2016)

Smangus said:


> This generation of Tories seem to think that this is their miners strike, they won't back down and can't afford to be seen to.
> 
> eta, hope I am wrong about this.


I have been thinking this too.


----------



## LeslieB (Feb 12, 2016)

killer b said:


> go away you weirdo.



If you seriously think there is any comparison between this and the miners strike of the early 80s you need to learn some history.


----------



## killer b (Feb 12, 2016)

waste of time.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 12, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> If you seriously think there is any comparison between this and the miners strike of the early 80s you need to learn some history.


tory governments (check) taking on a group of public sector employees (check) and imposing changes on their terms and conditions (check)...


----------



## LeslieB (Feb 12, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> tory governments (check) taking on a group of public sector employees (check) and imposing changes on their terms and conditions (check)...



Very simplistic. You need to understand how the pit was at the heart of many communities in places like South Wales and the North East.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Feb 12, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> Oh yes those poor working class junior doctors going down t' pit every day.



And again how does attacking the terms and conditions of junior doctors benefit health care assistants?

Louis MacNeice


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Feb 12, 2016)

Where's MarkyMark gone? He suddenly seems a bit less of a dick.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 12, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> Very simplistic. You need to understand how the pit was at the heart of many communities in places like South Wales and the North East.


you claimed there was no comparison while i was pointing out several commonalities. my post not intended to be, nor was it, a complete list or work on the subject and only a pointless twat would assume it was.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 12, 2016)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> Where's MarkyMark gone? He suddenly seems a bit less of a dick.


i suspect he hired LeslieB specifically so people would see there are greater twazzocks out there than MarkyMarrk and so be kinder to MarkyMarrk in future.


----------



## LeslieB (Feb 12, 2016)

serious question. If there was a 'junior bankers' strike taking place in the City of London, how many people on this thread would support it?

After all, how does attacking the terms and conditions of junior bankers help security guards, receptionists and those that clean their offices?


----------



## killer b (Feb 12, 2016)

_serious_


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Feb 12, 2016)

SRS


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Feb 12, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> If you seriously think there is any comparison between this and the miners strike of the early 80s you need to learn some history.



The miners strike of the mid 80s was engineered by the Tories as a necessary attack on the organised labour movement; it was successful and severely injured (some would say killed off) that movement . 

This juniors doctors strike is being engineered as a necessary attack on that most popular underpinning of the welfare state, the NHS. It is another key battle in the fight over the what remains of the post war working class gains.

Given the lack of attention to detail and evidence of any grasp on history you've displayed, it is unsurprising that you fail to see such an obvious comparison. However, it is still sad to see you flaunting your ignorance (and envy) so confidently.

Louis MacNeice


----------



## brogdale (Feb 12, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> tory governments (check) taking on a group of public sector employees (check) and imposing changes on their terms and conditions (check)...


Exactly. Both events representing elements of the long 'progress' of the neo-liberal rejection of the post-war 'social contract'. Within 32 years of the Miners' Strike the last pit was closed; I've no doubt that the party of financialised capital would desire the end of publicly-owned hospitals within such a time frame.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 12, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> serious question. If there was a 'junior bankers' strike taking place in the City of London, how many people on this thread would support it?
> 
> After all, how does attacking the terms and conditions of junior bankers help security guards, receptionists and those that clean their offices?


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 12, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> serious question. If there was a 'junior bankers' strike taking place in the City of London, how many people on this thread would support it?
> 
> After all, how does attacking the terms and conditions of junior bankers help security guards, receptionists and those that clean their offices?


are bankers in the public sector? muppet


----------



## LeslieB (Feb 12, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> are bankers in the public sector? muppet



So you wouldn't support a strike by supermarket workers or office cleaners?


----------



## LeslieB (Feb 12, 2016)

brogdale said:


>




One of my favourite songs, but what is your point?


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Feb 12, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> serious question. If there was a 'junior bankers' strike taking place in the City of London, how many people on this thread would support it?
> 
> After all, how does attacking the terms and conditions of junior bankers help security guards, receptionists and those that clean their offices?



In the abstract I'd defend all workers rights to withdraw their labour. In practice the level of support I'd give would be informed by answers to questions like:

What service do junior bankers provide that is analogous with junior doctors?

What service does the City of London provide that is analogous with those provided by the NHS?

What is their imagined strike seeking to achieve? (If we're in the imagining business, a strike against corporate corruption would get more of my support that one for increased bonus payments).

What is the attitude of the security guards, receptionist and cleaners to the imagined strike?​
The bottom line is Leslie, if you're going to make stuff up at least think it through.

So one more time, how does attacking the terms and conditions of junior doctors help health care assistants? I sense you don't want to answer but try to have the courage of your ill informed convictions.

Louis MacNeice


----------



## LeslieB (Feb 12, 2016)

Louis MacNeice said:


> So one more time, how does attacking the terms and conditions of junior doctors help health care assistants?



Well I'd rather see the NHS budget spent on increasing the wages of HCAs than Junior Doctors. And most HCAs can't afford to go on strike!




> In the abstract I'd defend all workers rights to withdraw their labour



Sure, but there is a difference between supporting people having the *right* to strike and supporting a particular strike cause, no?

Which ever way you slice and dice it, this is a very middle class strike isn't it?


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 12, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> So you wouldn't support a strike by supermarket workers or office cleaners?


that doesn't follow, does it. thinking not your strong point, leslieb


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Feb 12, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> *Well I'd rather see the NHS budget spent on increasing the wages of HCAs than Junior Doctors. And most HCAs can't afford to go on strike!*
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Firstly, do you think that the government proposals are about moving cash from the junior doctors wage bill to the HCA wage bill...really? Is this in the same imagined world of striking junior bankers, or is it another dream you've just pulled out your ear? 

Secondly, this is a strike about defending a universal free at the point of need service; it seems to be your envy of junior doctors that can't let you see the huge working class benefit of such a service and the defense of such a service.

Louis MacNeice


----------



## LeslieB (Feb 12, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> that doesn't follow, does it. thinking not your strong point, leslieb



Of course it follows. You just said one of your reasons for supporting this strike was that junior doctors were in the public sector.

Supermarket workers clearly aren't. Therefore you can't say 'public sector strike- good, private sector strike bad' unless you would refuse to support a strike by supermarket workers.

Personally I'd love to see a picket line outside McDonalds or Tesco.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 12, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> Of course it follows. You just said one of your reasons for supporting this strike was that junior doctors were in the public sector.
> 
> Supermarket workers clearly aren't. Therefore you can't say 'public sector strike- good, private sector strike bad' unless you would refuse to support a strike by supermarket workers.
> 
> Personally I'd love to see a picket line outside McDonalds or Tesco.


being as this thread's about public sector workers going on strike it seems perverse to introduce hypotheticals about bankers going on strike: bankers of course generally not unionised although there is a union for bank _workers_: a different breed altogether. 

your introduction of the dichotomy public sector strike good / private sector strike bad based on a dishonest sleight of hand.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 12, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> One of my favourite songs, but what is your point?


That.


----------



## LeslieB (Feb 12, 2016)

brogdale said:


> That.


Eh?



Pickman's model said:


> there is a union for bank _workers_: a different breed altogether.



Something we agree on at last  Yes your average bank teller probably has no more in common with the City of London lot than the average Asda worker has with a member of the Walton family


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 12, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> Of course it follows. You just said one of your reasons for supporting this strike was that junior doctors were in the public sector.
> 
> Supermarket workers clearly aren't. Therefore you can't say 'public sector strike- good, private sector strike bad' unless you would refuse to support a strike by supermarket workers.
> 
> Personally I'd love to see a picket line outside McDonalds or Tesco.


Has your banning been lifted then Oswaldtwistle?


----------



## LeslieB (Feb 12, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Has your banning been lifted then Oswaldtwistle?



Yes, but how did you figure that out please?


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 12, 2016)

Have you never heard of the files?


----------



## J Ed (Feb 12, 2016)

I notice that quite a few idiots who are also opposed to strikes by say the RMT have suddenly transformed themselves into ardent trade unionists who are only concerned here as they are class warriors worried that the junior doctors are too bourgeois to support.


----------



## LeslieB (Feb 12, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Have you never heard of the files?



No, and they sound a bit ominous to be honest. My understanding was pnly the mods had access to stuff like this?

#aqua #fridgemagnet ?

Edit not sure how to tag people but I feel they should know about this.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Feb 12, 2016)




----------



## LeslieB (Feb 12, 2016)

Mr.Bishie said:


>



You really think it's funny that someone is keeping files on people?

On this issue I might be in a minority of one on here, on another issue it might be you.

Anyway people post some pretty personal stuff on here. I'll certainly be more wary in future.


----------



## killer b (Feb 12, 2016)

You unmasked yourself you daft twat.


----------



## killer b (Feb 12, 2016)

Oh I think I'll just go back to that forum and post about the same bullshit I always post about, using all the same words, and then get upset when I get spotted straight away.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 12, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> You really think it's funny that someone is keeping files on people?
> 
> On this issue I might be in a minority of one on here, on another issue it might be you.
> 
> Anyway people post some pretty personal stuff on here. I'll certainly be more wary in future.


no you won't


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 12, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> You really think it's funny that someone is keeping files on people?
> 
> On this issue I might be in a minority of one on here, on another issue it might be you.
> 
> Anyway people post some pretty personal stuff on here. I'll certainly be more wary in future.


there are no files, its a running joke. Just a search function and being able to spot writing style


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 12, 2016)

Anyway, back to the issue...


----------



## J Ed (Feb 12, 2016)

Is there going to be an official response? Surely the doctors aren't just going to accept this.


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 12, 2016)

J Ed said:


> Is there going to be an official response? Surely the doctors aren't just going to accept this.


theres a response from the BMA linked to on the previous page.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 12, 2016)

J Ed said:


> Is there going to be an official response? Surely the doctors aren't just going to accept this.


Junior doctors: Contract imposition is a black day for the NHS | GPonline


----------



## killer b (Feb 12, 2016)

I understand theyre expecting to announce further action on the 20th.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Feb 12, 2016)

killer b said:


> I understand theyre expecting to announce further action on the 20th.



And taking the 'emergency cover' staff out too I believe?


----------



## LeslieB (Feb 12, 2016)

killer b said:


> Oh I think I'll just go back to that forum and post about the same bullshit I always post about, using all the same words, and then get upset when I get spotted straight away.



I'm amazed anyone remembers from so far back, tbh.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Feb 12, 2016)

Drinks event with Jeremy Hunt cancelled after junior doctors bought tickets



> Jeremy Hunt has cancelled a 'meet and greet' drinks event tonight, after junior doctors bought tickets.
> 
> The Health Secretary was to appear at the wine and nibbles night for Fareham Conservative Association - but it was scrapped after activists circulated the invitation on social media.
> 
> ...


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Feb 12, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> I'm amazed anyone remembers from so far back, tbh.



Maybe it had something to do with the striking quality of your posts.

Louis MacNeice

p.s. still feel free to answer the questions you've been so assiduously avoiding.


----------



## killer b (Feb 12, 2016)

Mr.Bishie said:


> And taking the 'emergency cover' staff out too I believe?


Not sure. There's a lot of pissed off drs calling for allsorts of shit, but I don't think exactly what's going to happen has been decided on yet. Talk of committees and suchlike (I'm surprised they didn't have something in place already tbh, this isn't exactly unexpected)


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 12, 2016)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Drinks event with Jeremy Hunt cancelled after junior doctors bought tickets


----------



## killer b (Feb 12, 2016)

this is the contract

http://www.nhsemployers.org/~/media...mary of new JD 2016 contract Final 12 Feb.pdf

this bit seems to be causing some outrage:


----------



## agricola (Feb 12, 2016)

killer b said:


> this is the contract
> 
> http://www.nhsemployers.org/~/media/Employers/Documents/Need to know/Summary of new JD 2016 contract Final 12 Feb.pdf
> 
> this bit seems to be causing some outrage:



I think thats because its combined with this:



> Additional work paid at prevailing rate unless a breach of WTR 48-hour average working hours or contractual 72-hour weekly limit, in which case, time and a half would be paid



... which is basically no extra pay for overtime up to a certain point (and then time and a half afterwards), isn't it?


----------



## killer b (Feb 12, 2016)

I think it's more that it's infringing on their right to do what the fuck they want with their spare time.


----------



## teqniq (Feb 12, 2016)

no confidence petition re Hunt

Petition: Consider a vote of No Confidence in Jeremy Hunt, Health Secretary


----------



## Lord Camomile (Feb 12, 2016)

teqniq said:


> no confidence petition re Hunt
> 
> Petition: Consider a vote of No Confidence in Jeremy Hunt, Health Secretary


Oh sod it, why not...


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 12, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> As so often happens, the wrong people are on strike here.
> 
> In Americas 'fight for $15' is taking place.  Home care workers, child care workers, supermarket and fast food workers are on strike.
> 
> ...



That you're a scab-licking shitcunt?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 12, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> "According to figures from the NHS Employers Organisation, the average total salary for a doctor in training is around £37,000."
> 
> Junior doctors' pay: How does your job compare? - BBC News
> 
> ...



You really don't get it. You're too busy buying into the "but they earn enough" shit.
If the government is allowed to unilaterally impose new employment contracts with adverse terms and conditions on public sector employees, where do you think they'll stop -with the doctors?


----------



## LeslieB (Feb 12, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> That you're a scab-licking shitcunt?



Oh lovely.


----------



## FiFi (Feb 12, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> You really don't get it. You're too busy buying into the "but they earn enough" shit.
> If the government is allowed to unilaterally impose new employment contracts with adverse terms and conditions on public sector employees, where do you think they'll stop -with the doctors?


No, it will be all of us. They may get the junior doctors working the weekends as though they are weekdays but what about the other roles. Doctors can't do 90% of what needs to be done to care for patients (or diagnose them for that matter!). You can be sure that Nurses weekend enhancements are next for the chop, and then all the other Professions!


----------



## The Pale King (Feb 12, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> being as this thread's about public sector workers going on strike it seems perverse to introduce hypotheticals about bankers going on strike: bankers of course generally not unionised although there is a union for bank _workers_: a different breed altogether.
> 
> your introduction of the dichotomy public sector strike good / private sector strike bad based on a dishonest sleight of hand.


 
Quite agree, just wonder if Bankers haven't been on strike (refusing to invest) for several years now...


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 12, 2016)

FiFi said:


> No, it will be all of us. They may get the junior doctors working the weekends as though they are weekdays but what about the other roles. Doctors can't do 90% of what needs to be done to care for patients (or diagnose them for that matter!). You can be sure that Nurses weekend enhancements are next for the chop, and then all the other Professions!



With the partial justification of "the private sector don't do it", when the private sector did, but were able to progressively bugger their employees because of the de-unionisation of private sector workforces over the last 30 years.
These neoliberal fucks are taking us back to Victorian values, and I don't mean faith, hope and charity.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 12, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> Oh lovely.



You're right. It's too good an insult to waste on the likes of you.


----------



## goldenecitrone (Feb 12, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> serious question. If there was a 'junior bankers' strike taking place in the City of London, how many people on this thread would support it?
> 
> After all, how does attacking the terms and conditions of junior bankers help security guards, receptionists and those that clean their offices?



Get to fuck, you private healthcare supporting cunt.


----------



## danny la rouge (Feb 12, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> As so often happens, the wrong people are on strike here.
> 
> In Americas 'fight for $15' is taking place.  Home care workers, child care workers, supermarket and fast food workers are on strike.
> 
> ...


I mean how could it possibly affect us if doctors have to work longer hours? It's not like they have to make life and death decisions.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 12, 2016)

Lord Camomile said:


> Showed this to a colleague who chuckled and said "let's get Hunt sacked". Sadly, I'm not sure that would stop anything
> 
> Unless... if public opinion was so against it would the government throw Hunt under the bus as they u-turned?



They won't "u-turn". If Hunt goes, they'll just replace him with another small brain/big ego combo like Grunt Shitts. The Tories are talking about this in terms of this being their "miners' strike" - a one-off opportunity not just to break a union, but a *profession*. Once they've broken the doctors - if it doesn't happen this time round, they'll go again after the referendum - they'll sweep through the public sector like shit through a goose.


----------



## teqniq (Feb 12, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> ...The Tories are talking about this in terms of this being their "miners' strike" - a one-off opportunity not just to break a union, but a *profession*....



ah so it wasn't just my imagination then


----------



## nino_savatte (Feb 12, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> They won't "u-turn". If Hunt goes, they'll just replace him with another small brain/big ego combo like Grunt Shitts. The Tories are talking about this in terms of this being their "miners' strike" - a one-off opportunity not just to break a union, but a *profession*. Once they've broken the doctors - if it doesn't happen this time round, they'll go again after the referendum - they'll sweep through the public sector like shit through a goose.


They certainly have contempt for the professions: first the teachers (anyone without qualifications could teach according to Gove), now the doctors. Do they dare take on the legal profession too? 

Fucking anti-intellectual pea-brained cunts, the lot of them.


----------



## J Ed (Feb 12, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> As so often happens, the wrong people are on strike here.
> 
> In Americas 'fight for $15' is taking place.  Home care workers, child care workers, supermarket and fast food workers are on strike.
> 
> ...



I work in a supermarket and I've talked about the strike with a few different colleagues who all support the strike. Fuck this divide and rule shit, we should all strike as early and often as possible.


----------



## nino_savatte (Feb 12, 2016)

How about a day of action in defence of the NHS? 
day of protest in Support of Doctors. | Campaigns by You


----------



## J Ed (Feb 12, 2016)

When people in non-graduate positions strike: 'well if you didn't want to work in your job why didn't you go to university/why did you choose that subject at university instead of a stem subject/why didn't you pick a different stem subject?'

When people in jobs which require a degree strike: 'Why are you striking when people in lower paid jobs aren't striking?'


----------



## existentialist (Feb 12, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> Oh yes those poor working class junior doctors going down t' pit every day.


Stop being a cunt.


----------



## bimble (Feb 12, 2016)

" he is either dishonest or stupid, I don’t know which is worse."
Andrew Mitchell's daughter calls for sacking of Jeremy Hunt


----------



## LeslieB (Feb 12, 2016)

goldenecitrone said:


> Get to fuck, you private healthcare supporting cunt.



When did I ever mention private healthcare? The NHS is great. I still think GPs are overpaid though.


----------



## J Ed (Feb 12, 2016)

bimble said:


> " he is either dishonest or stupid, I don’t know which is worse."
> Andrew Mitchell's daughter calls for sacking of Jeremy Hunt



He's the fallguy


----------



## bimble (Feb 12, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> When did I ever mention private healthcare? The NHS is great. I still think GPs are overpaid though.


The junior doctor I know is about 7 years in and still in debt from the years of study. He regularly works 12 hour days, and has never been skiing in his life. .


----------



## redsquirrel (Feb 12, 2016)

J Ed said:


> I work in a supermarket and I've talked about the strike with a few different colleagues who all support the strike. Fuck this divide and rule shit, we should all strike as early and often as possible.


Quite, even if you're so incredibly dim as to not support the doctors, the fact that they are striking is excellent news as it will hopefully encourage others to do the same.


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 12, 2016)

a strike is called. in any sector. The response options

a)managment fucking people again, must have pushed them right to it if they are giving up the days pay. Hope they get a result

b) Are we sure this is right? its going to inconvenience me and what about the wider implications of safety on that day?

c) fuck them I don't get weekend rates so neither should anyone else

which side are you on boys etc


----------



## LeslieB (Feb 12, 2016)

b) in this case from me.


----------



## nino_savatte (Feb 12, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> b) in this case from me.


Well, knock me down with a feather.


----------



## Idris2002 (Feb 12, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> b) in this case from me.


Tu stultus es.


----------



## seventh bullet (Feb 12, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> b) in this case from me.



We often talk about how lacking in power our union is (supermarket worker here).  With the new 'living wage' coming in the deal is that we lose our bigger hourly rate for weekends and no more paid breaks, meaning we're only going to be about fifty quid better off each month.  I'm not so sure seeing other people striking and going 'my conditions are shit so everyone else's should be as well' is going to help matters, really.


----------



## LeslieB (Feb 12, 2016)

50 quid a month = 600 quid a year so not so bad?


----------



## seventh bullet (Feb 12, 2016)

Rolling in it.


----------



## LeslieB (Feb 12, 2016)

seventh bullet said:


> Rolling in it.



Obviously not, but it's (I would guess) about a 5% pay rise when inflation is fuck all. 

The question is what will the living wage be next year.


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 12, 2016)

seventh bullet said:


> We often talk about how lacking in power our union is (supermarket worker here).  With the new 'living wage' coming in the deal is that we lose our bigger hourly rate for weekends and no more paid breaks, meaning we're only going to be about fifty quid better off each month.  I'm not so sure seeing other people striking and going 'my conditions are shit so everyone else's should be as well' is going to help matters, really.


useless seven days a week ?

never even joined the union when I was at retail. pointless in a small firm. In bigger outfits I suppose they at least act as wage negotiators on a national scale. You'd hope so anyway


----------



## seventh bullet (Feb 12, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> Obviously not, but it's (I would guess) about a 5% pay rise when inflation is fuck all.
> 
> The question is what will the living wage be next year.



Be grateful prole.


----------



## LeslieB (Feb 12, 2016)

Oh as Hatboy once said "this is futile"


----------



## J Ed (Feb 12, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> useless seven days a week aka useless wankers,shits and dickheads?
> 
> never even joined the union whe I was at retail. pointless in a small firm. In bigger outfits I suppose they at least act as wage negotiators on a national scale. You'd hope so anyway



No one has said anything about them to me, I work in one of the smaller supermarkets (the bigger store nearby has a union presence) and I suppose that it is one of the advantages to the big supermarkets of having the smaller convenience stores, easier to monitor union activity.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 12, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> Oh as Hatboy once said "this is futile"


Just leave.


----------



## killer b (Feb 12, 2016)

nino_savatte said:


> Do they dare take on the legal profession too?


Isn't that what Grayling's already done? Gove's rolling back some of the shit so they think they've had some victories, but it's mostly cosmetic: the big money changes to legal aid, judicial review etc are still in place.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 12, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> serious question. If there was a 'junior bankers' strike taking place in the City of London, how many people on this thread would support it?
> 
> After all, how does attacking the terms and conditions of junior bankers help security guards, receptionists and those that clean their offices?



Are "junior bankers" public servants, _du arschloch_?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 12, 2016)

teqniq said:


> ah so it wasn't just my imagination then



Nope. bear in mind that basic neoliberal ideology gives *maximum* power to the bosses, and *minimum* power to the workers, and in this context "workers" means anyone salaried by the state, whether you're a part-time filing clerk for a local authority, or a Whitehall Mandarin. Remember that the unions bill currently going through Parliament wants to limit collective bargaining. That's probably going to be the other side of this battle - impose the contract to set a precedent, and legislate the erosion of collective bargaining so that any fightback, from anywhere, is fractured.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 12, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> a strike is called. in any sector. The response options
> 
> a)managment fucking people again, must have pushed them right to it if they are giving up the days pay. Hope they get a result
> 
> ...



a), every bloody time. Anyone answering with b) or c) condemns themselves as a selfish, grasping amoeba-brained shit-stain.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 12, 2016)

killer b said:


> Isn't that what Grayling's already done? Gove's rolling back some of the shit so they think they've had some victories, but it's mostly cosmetic: the big money changes to legal aid, judicial review etc are still in place.



And as an acquaintance who's a former solicitor said to me last week, "a lot of the criminal law firms that made their bread and butter from Legal Aid are already dead and gone, or have had to amalgamate with two or three other firms just to keep going in the short term". The Coalition cuts made her walk away from a job she loved, because the stress was doing her head in.


----------



## existentialist (Feb 12, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> Oh as Hatboy once said "this is futile"


I couldn't agree more.


----------



## TheHoodedClaw (Feb 12, 2016)

This is fairly damning, from the NAO



Surely an institution like the NHS should be doing capacity planning for staff levels as an annual exercise, at the very least?


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Feb 12, 2016)

Hospitals may refuse to impose Jeremy Hunt’s new contract on junior doctors

Interesting!


----------



## Sasaferrato (Feb 12, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> That you're a scab-licking shitcunt?


No. That they are stating fact.

The striking doctors are scum. No other word adequately describes them.


----------



## J Ed (Feb 12, 2016)

Sasaferrato said:


> No. That they are stating fact.
> 
> The striking doctors are scum. No other word adequately describes them.



disgusting


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Feb 12, 2016)

Sasaferrato said:


> No. That they are stating fact.
> 
> The striking doctors are scum. No other word adequately describes them.



Fuck off Sass - & that's being nice


----------



## Sasaferrato (Feb 12, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> a), every bloody time. Anyone answering with b) or c) condemns themselves as a selfish, grasping amoeba-brained shit-stain.


No. The ameoba brained shit are those who took training place from someone who would have become a doctor because they actually wanted to care for patients.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Feb 12, 2016)

Sherry?


----------



## Sasaferrato (Feb 12, 2016)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Fuck off Sass - & that's being nice


Scum. Utter fucking scum.
 Now, you fuck off.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Feb 12, 2016)

Sasaferrato said:


> Scum. Utter fucking scum.
> Now, you fuck off.



Sleep it off


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Feb 12, 2016)




----------



## Mr.Bishie (Feb 12, 2016)




----------



## Mr.Bishie (Feb 12, 2016)

Whats say Sass? 

An injury to one, is an injury to all.


----------



## teqniq (Feb 12, 2016)

nino_savatte said:


> Well, knock me down with a feather.


Clever Trevor.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Feb 12, 2016)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Whats say Sass?
> 
> An injury to one, is an injury to all.


Hunt is perfectly correct in imposing what is a perfectly reasonable contract. Have you had a 13% pay rise recently?


----------



## Sprocket. (Feb 12, 2016)

What I cannot understand is how posters and people outside in the world can only see this as:
Scummy middle class spoilt doctors holding the country's sick to ransom over money.
And not:
The latest attack on the NHS which as been ongoing since the 1970s.
When all the doctors have left, become teachers or working in a call centre, the NHS collapses, the tories say, see told you so, sell what's left to their mates, get seats on the board and retire to spend their ill gotten gains on skiing and golf just to rub the poor, unemployed former NHS staff's noses in it.
They have done this to the shipyards, the docks, the steel industry, the print industry, the coal industry, anyone who stands up against them. 
Remember in 84, they gave the police a massive pay rise to beat the miners?
Looks like the police may well be next.
Chickens coming home to roost.
They are starting to put the skids under them already.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Feb 12, 2016)

Mr.Bishie said:


>



Self serving shit.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Feb 12, 2016)

Sasaferrato said:


> Hunt is perfectly correct in imposing what is a perfectly reasonable contract. Have you had a 13% pay rise recently?



Playing low paid PS workers off against NHS junior doctors - 0/5


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Feb 12, 2016)

Sasaferrato said:


> Self serving shit.



Cockburns?


----------



## Sprocket. (Feb 12, 2016)

Sasaferrato said:


> Hunt is perfectly correct in imposing what is a perfectly reasonable contract. Have you had a 13% pay rise recently?



Hunt had a 10% one last year, plus another £1000 this week.


----------



## Sprocket. (Feb 12, 2016)

And hunt don't work weekends, mind he might soon when his mates drop him!


----------



## Sasaferrato (Feb 12, 2016)

Sprocket. said:


> What I cannot understand is how posters and people outside in the world can only see this as:
> Scummy middle class spoilt doctors holding the country's sick to ransom over money.
> And not:
> The latest attack on the NHS which as been ongoing since the 1970s.
> ...



I can recall working 17 twelve hour night shifts in a row in Berlin, with a critically ill patient, because I was the only ICU trained nurse in the hospital. I didn't earn one penny extra, and couldn't have been compelled to do it. I did it because I cared. Unlike our current crop of junior doctors it seems.


----------



## two sheds (Feb 12, 2016)

Sasaferrato said:


> I can recall working 17 twelve hour night shifts in a row in Berlin, with a critically ill patient, because I was the only ICU trained nurse in the hospital. I didn't earn one penny extra, and couldn't have been compelled to do it. I did it because I cared. Unlike our current crop of junior doctors it seems.



So everyone should work 12-hour shifts with unpaid overtime?


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Feb 12, 2016)

Drop the Army/Civi Medic crap Sass


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 13, 2016)

Sasaferrato said:


> No. That they are stating fact.
> 
> The striking doctors are scum. No other word adequately describes them.



Piss up a rope, you antediluvian shit-wit. They're employees. Their employer is threatening to unilaterally impose a change in their T & Cs on them. They have as much right as any other employee to take industrial action, you worm.


----------



## Sprocket. (Feb 13, 2016)

Sasaferrato said:


> I can recall working 17 twelve hour night shifts in a row in Berlin, with a critically ill patient, because I was the only ICU trained nurse in the hospital. I didn't earn one penny extra, and couldn't have been compelled to do it. I did it because I cared. Unlike our current crop of junior doctors it seems.



And I tip my hat to you for your dedication and service. Respect!
But sadly I have seen a lot of hard working people and whole communities devastated and left to rot by a set of people carrying on the class war they instigated.
Too many times workers have been pushed into action that ultimately leads to their demise and ridicule.
I fear this is the latest round.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 13, 2016)

Sasaferrato said:


> No. The ameoba brained shit are those who took training place from someone who would have become a doctor because they actually wanted to care for patients.



Try not to be more of a reactionary twat than you usually are. 
Much of the impulse behind the resistance to the contract Cunt is offering, is precisely to do with patient care. Just because you could nurse without killing someone over a 12 or 18 hour shift without killing someone, doesn't mean that a doctor, administering more complex treatment, could - or would want to be in the position to. Yours is the worst kind of whiny "it did me no harm, therefore it's fine" bullshit.


----------



## Sprocket. (Feb 13, 2016)

By the way I once worked everyday for six months without extra pay to keep people in a job,  the benefit of fellow workers. I still got made redundant too. For 18 years service I got £4,370.
But I am still supporting the doctors because ultimately the NHS is the target!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 13, 2016)

Sasaferrato said:


> Hunt is perfectly correct in imposing what is a perfectly reasonable contract. Have you had a 13% pay rise recently?



Except that it isn't a 13% pay rise, when you factor in the various wrinkles and conditionalities.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 13, 2016)

Sasaferrato said:


> I can recall working 17 twelve hour night shifts in a row in Berlin, with a critically ill patient, because I was the only ICU trained nurse in the hospital. I didn't earn one penny extra, and couldn't have been compelled to do it. I did it because I cared. Unlike our current crop of junior doctors it seems.


The sort of _negative solidarity _that betrays a bitter, reactionary outlook.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 13, 2016)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Drop the Army/Civi Medic crap Sass



Fuck knows I use the NHS a LOT, and I REALLY don't want to be treated by over-worked, exhausted, resentful registrars and house officers.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 13, 2016)

brogdale said:


> The sort of _negative solidarity _that betrays a bitter, reactionary outlook.



"Bitter" and "reactionary" are perfect characterisations.


----------



## coley (Feb 13, 2016)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Playing low paid PS workers off against NHS junior doctors - 0/5


What is the average pay of a junior doctor? And just what is a junior doctor?


----------



## coley (Feb 13, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> Try not to be more of a reactionary twat than you usually are.
> Much of the impulse behind the resistance to the contract Cunt is offering, is precisely to do with patient care. Just because you could nurse without killing someone over a 12 or 18 hour shift without killing someone, doesn't mean that a doctor, administering more complex treatment, could - or would want to be in the position to. Yours is the worst kind of whiny "it did me no harm, therefore it's fine" bullshit.



Aye, while agreeing with most of the comments on here, try getting an out of hours GP emergency referral, after god knows how many minutes you spend negotiating the various menus you end up talking to some undertrained operative in what used to be 999,who then takes your "details" the only emergency response you will get is, A, your not breathing, B,you are bleeding uncontrollably C, you appear to be deid. If you aren't in AB or C you will then be informed a doctor will contact you, but due to " high levels of demand" it will be at least four hours before this can happen, and it is then suggested you make your own way to the local A&E unit.
As much as I like to see the boot put into the Tories, this crap became common after the Blair GPs settlement.


----------



## Guineveretoo (Feb 13, 2016)

Coward Hunt Fails Miserably


----------



## Guineveretoo (Feb 13, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> Except that it isn't a 13% pay rise, when you factor in the various wrinkles and conditionalities.


It isn't a pay rise at all!

The whole point about this is that government are trying to impose a contract which has doctors working MORE hours for the same, or less, money. 

The nonsense about the excessive pay rise is because they are, in effect, removing overtime pay, and weekend rates, from doctors at the same time as telling them that they have got to work more weekends with less compensatory leave. 

And one of the reasons why it's shit for all health workers is that doctors are limited in what they can do at weekends without all the other health professionals. Hence the knowledge that Hunt is after their terms and conditions as well. 

Add to that the fact that there is already 7 day working in the NHS, and that the statistic that says people are more likely to die if they're admitted at weekends is wrong.


----------



## BigTom (Feb 13, 2016)

Sasaferrato said:


> No. The ameoba brained shit are those who took training place from someone who would have become a doctor because they actually wanted to care for patients.


98% voted for strike, 99% for action short of strike. 76% turnout. You think between three quarters and virtually all of the junior doctors shouldn't be in the nhs. Have a word with yourself this morning eh?


----------



## bimble (Feb 13, 2016)

coley said:


> What is the average pay of a junior doctor? And just what is a junior doctor?


Junior doctor is the word for everyone below the level of consultant. The years it takes to get to consultant varies but is upwards of 8. Starting salaries for junior docs is about 24k a year, rising as you progress.
If Sasaferrato is correct and the doctors nowadays are all a bunch of moneygrubbing selfish cunts then they're very stupid ones, because they're all in the wrong profession, they should've used their tiny 'amoeba brains' to pick law, or advertising or something, instead.

The changes being pushed scare me because of what I've learnt from the junior doc I know about his existing hours and working conditions: He's already, most days, working many hours unpaid overtime as the _only_ NHS clinical child & adolescent psychiatrist on duty for vast swathes of London, meaning that if you were to have a psychotic breakdown anywhere in the south of the city he's the one who'd be expected to be there and make a call on what to do. A responsibility like that should not rest on someone who is severely sleep deprived & surviving on crisps and snickers bars.


----------



## Guineveretoo (Feb 13, 2016)

bimble said:


> Junior doctor is the word for everyone below the level of consultant. The years it takes to get to consultant varies but is upwards of 8. Starting salaries for junior docs is about 24k a year, rising as you progress.
> If Sasaferrato is correct and the doctors nowadays are all a bunch of moneygrubbing selfish cunts then they're very stupid ones, because they're all in the wrong profession, they should've used their tiny 'amoeba brains' to pick law, or advertising or something, instead.
> 
> The changes being pushed scare me because of what I've learnt from the junior doc I know about his existing hours and working conditions: He's already, most days, working many hours unpaid overtime as the _only_ NHS clinical child & adolescent psychiatrist on duty for vast swathes of London, meaning that if you were to have a psychotic breakdown anywhere in the south of the city he's the one who'd be expected to be there and make a call on what to do. A responsibility like that should not rest on someone who is severely sleep deprived & surviving on crisps and snickers bars.


And that is on top of a degree that can be 4, 5 or 6 years long, during which they are just building up debts.

So it takes a *minimum *of 12 years to become a consultant and very few manage it in that minimum time. Lots of so called "junior doctors" have childcare responsibilities and bills to pay, just like the rest of us. During that time, the only way a lot of these guys can make ends meet is because of additional pay for shift and weekend working.

The only reason they are not keeling over, are able to spend some time with their families, are not working crazy hours and are not putting patients at risk is that, at the moment, the law (thanks to European legislation, in fact, although that is for another thread!) does not allow hospitals to make them work as long as they used to. If that legislation is breached, the hospital has to pay a financial penalty.

This government and that Cunt, are wanting to remove the additional pay they get, and make doctors work more hours, and remove that financial penalty.

I think we all owe a huge debt of gratitude to the people who are prepared to work so hard, and give up so much in order to become doctors.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Feb 13, 2016)

Guineveretoo said:


> Lots of so called "junior doctors" have childcare responsibilities and bills to pay



THE BASTARDS! THE SCUM! MONEY-GRUBBING SWINE! BLISTERING BARNACLES! BLUNDERING BAZOUKIS! ARSE! DRINK! FECK!

*froth*


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 13, 2016)

sass's argument boils down to 'I done a night shift for normal rates once so everyone else must. During the crimean war you know. We ate the dogs'


----------



## two sheds (Feb 13, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> sass's argument boils down to 'I done a night shift for normal rates once so everyone else must. During the crimean war you know. We ate the dogs'



No, I think it's only people with a vocation that are scum if they don't work 12 hours a day for no extra pay - so doctors, nurses, firemen, ambulance workers and the like. Everyone else can screw for as much money as they can get.


----------



## bimble (Feb 13, 2016)

Guineveretoo said:


> And that is on top of a degree that can be 4, 5 or 6 years long, during which they are just building up debts..


Also.. don't know how many other professions require you to pay hundreds of quid out of your salary every year in order to do compulsory exams , be insured and a member of the GMC etc?


----------



## LeslieB (Feb 13, 2016)

bimble said:


> Also.. don't know how many other professions require you to pay hundreds of quid out of your salary every year in order to do compulsory exams , be insured and a member of the GMC etc?


 Law and vet science for two.


----------



## existentialist (Feb 13, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> Law and vet science for two.


Quite. And look at the salary ranges for those, too. 

Look also at the government's efforts to deprofessionalise both of them.


----------



## two sheds (Feb 13, 2016)

Sasaferrato said:


> The striking doctors are scum. No other word adequately describes them.









Some 'scum' in Sass' mind who are taking time off from devoting most of their waking hours caring for people. 



Sasaferrato said:


> Hunt is perfectly correct in imposing what is a perfectly reasonable contract. Have you had a 13% pay rise recently?



Hunt stresses that the new contract will be cost neutral. Instead of 5-day cover there will be 7-day cover. How is that a 13% pay rise, Sass?


----------



## LeslieB (Feb 13, 2016)

In the photo above I see nothing but fresh faced middle class kids who are treating this all as a big lark. Oh what jolly japes we are having, Justin!


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 13, 2016)

they should be unshaven, huddled round a metal barrel with a fire in it looking grim of eye. Prat.


----------



## goldenecitrone (Feb 13, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> In the photo above I see nothing but fresh faced middle class kids who are treating this all as a big lark. Oh what jolly japes we are having, Justin!



You've clearly never been on strike in your life, you private healthcare cunt.


----------



## LeslieB (Feb 13, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> they should be unshaven, huddled round a metal barrel with a fire in it looking grim of eye. Prat.



I'm just pointing out that comparisons with the miners strike etc are so wide of the mark it's unreal.


----------



## bimble (Feb 13, 2016)

You're just having a laugh aren't you Leslie, you utter fuckwit. You do realise that the future if Hunt wins will mean the NHS (whilst it still exists) will have to import all its doctors, right? And you wouldn't like that would you.


LeslieB said:


> No. I'm genuinely sick and tired of it. We've taken hundreds of thousands if not millions of immigrants and I've had enough.


----------



## LeslieB (Feb 13, 2016)

goldenecitrone said:


> You've clearly never been on strike in your life, you private healthcare cunt.



I could never afford private healthcare in a million years. The point is, they are letting down the people, like me, who pay their salaries.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 13, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> I'm just pointing out that comparisons with the miners strike etc are so wide of the mark it's unreal.


You're really not.


----------



## killer b (Feb 13, 2016)

My mate told me when she left the picket line on Tuesday that her feet were so cold she couldn't feel them anymore. She was crying the next day when Hunt imposed the contract. Larks.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Feb 13, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> The point is, they are letting down the people, like me, who pay their salaries.



Fuck off you trolling cunt.


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 13, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> I'm just pointing out that comparisons with the miners strike etc are so wide of the mark it's unreal.


You've never been on a  picket in your life. One of those who always has the 'i support strikes but not this one' set of excuses. Buys the donuts on his way in as waltzes past striking workers. The realist.

the MS comparison was being made in terms of the government picking a fight as you know. Not a like-for-like direct 'these are exactly the same'.


----------



## LeslieB (Feb 13, 2016)

killer b said:


> My mate told me when she left the picket line on Tuesday that her feet were so cold she couldn't feel them anymore.


Oh the poor dear. I expect she will make a full recovery.



> She was crying the next day when Hunt imposed the contract. Larks.


Didums.  Is that supposed to make me change my mind. I'll bet lots of people who had operations cancelled were crying too- both in sadness, frustration and pain.


----------



## killer b (Feb 13, 2016)

Whoops. I forgot, you aren't real. ignore me.


----------



## 2hats (Feb 13, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> I could never afford private healthcare in a million years. The point is, they are letting down the people, like me, who pay their salaries.



That's precisely  what I was thinking about this government and the egregious Mr cHunt.


----------



## existentialist (Feb 13, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> In the photo above I see nothing but fresh faced middle class kids who are treating this all as a big lark. Oh what jolly japes we are having, Justin!


Do carry on being blinded by your stereotypical judgements. If these people ARE just fresh faced middle class kids, that _could_ just be something to do with the fact that, contrary to their propaganda, this government has done its level best to pull up the ladder and make it impossible for anyone from a background in which money is not plentiful to get into medical school and qualify as a doctor. And that situation's only going to get worse, particularly as more and more young professionals, faced with eroding salaries and support from employers, require private means (or the bank of mum and dad) to survive.

And it'll be Justin or one of his friends who, in between jolly japes, is putting your face back together next time you step on your own dick and faceplant the pavement. I suspect you won't be sneering at their fresh-facedness or middle class ways then.


----------



## existentialist (Feb 13, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> I'm just pointing out that comparisons with the miners strike etc are so wide of the mark it's unreal.


It's the fucking *government* that's trying to paint this as some kind of struggle against overweening union militancy, you nobend.


----------



## LeslieB (Feb 13, 2016)

existentialist said:


> Do carry on being blinded by your stereotypical judgements. If these people ARE just fresh faced middle class kids, that _could_ just be something to do with the fact that, contrary to their propaganda, this government has done its level best to pull up the ladder and make it impossible for anyone from a background in which money is not plentiful to get into medical school and qualify as a doctor. And that situation's only going to get worse, particularly as more and more young professionals, faced with eroding salaries and support from employers, require private means (or the bank of mum and dad) to survive.
> 
> And it'll be Justin or one of his friends who, in between jolly japes, is putting your face back together next time you step on your own dick and faceplant the pavement. I suspect you won't be sneering at their fresh-facedness or middle class ways then.



Probably the only post I've read from your side of the argument I agree with.

But I still think doctors should have to work weekends. Just like the rest of the NHS, and quite a bit of the rest of the workforce.


----------



## existentialist (Feb 13, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> Probably the only post I've read from your side of the argument I agree with.
> 
> But I still think doctors should have to work weekends. Just like the rest of the NHS, and quite a bit of the rest of the workforce.


Doctors *are* working weekends.


----------



## nino_savatte (Feb 13, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> But I still think doctors should have to work weekends. Just like the rest of the NHS, and quite a bit of the rest of the workforce.


You're either trolling or you've swallowed Hunt's lies uncritically. Given your comments on other issues, I'd say the latter.


----------



## LeslieB (Feb 13, 2016)

I haven't swallowed anything uncritically.  However, yes, I'm on the governments side on this one.  Gawd knows there is enough else I disagree with them on.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 13, 2016)

nino_savatte said:


> You're either trolling or you've swallowed Hunt's lies uncritically. Given your comments on other issues, I'd say the latter.


Not mutually exclusive.


----------



## nino_savatte (Feb 13, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> I haven't swallowed anything uncritically.  However, yes, I'm on the governments side on this one.  Gawd knows there is enough else I disagree with them on.


You're one confused fuckwit.


----------



## nino_savatte (Feb 13, 2016)

Are you a Kipper, LeslieB?

I only ask that because there seems to be a massive streak of anti-intellectualism running through your posts.


----------



## Guineveretoo (Feb 13, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> Law and vet science for two.


It takes about 5 years to qualify as a vet.

It takes less than that to qualify as a lawyer, depending on which branch of the law you follow. 

Neither of them are anywhere near as long as it takes to become a consultant, and neither of them are forced into weekend working, and professional fees and academic fees, as well as repaying student loans.


----------



## bimble (Feb 13, 2016)

nino_savatte said:


> Are you a Kipper, LeslieB?
> 
> I only ask that because there seems to be a massive streak of anti-intellectualism running through your posts.


There's that plus the 'those immigrants coming over here' theme, but I'd err on the side of troll.


----------



## killer b (Feb 13, 2016)

re: weekend working, the author of one of the key papers being used to justify the government's position posted this on the the junior Dr's facebook group:

_I can reiterate as senior author on the Ozdemir paper the study could NEVER have shown that higher staffing on weekends reduced mortality. We did not have staffing levels by day of the week but aggregated data over a time period, so we didn't even investigate this. *The data have been continually misrepresented.* I have put this in writing to SoS, Heidi Alexander and Health Select Committee. I have asked the latter for a minuted retraction of the way in which the evidence is being used and acknowledgement of this. No replys so far._


----------



## nino_savatte (Feb 13, 2016)

bimble said:


> There's that plus the 'those immigrants coming over here' theme, but I'd err on the side of troll.


A Kipper troll, then?


----------



## LeslieB (Feb 13, 2016)

nino_savatte said:


> Are you a Kipper, LeslieB?



No, not really. I did vote for them in the 2014 Euros but I voted for Labour last time, largely because I liked my local MP.


----------



## danny la rouge (Feb 13, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> No, not really. I did vote for them in the 2014 Euros but I voted for Labour last time, largely because I liked my local MP.


Why did you vote UKIP in the Euros?


----------



## existentialist (Feb 13, 2016)

nino_savatte said:


> A Kipper troll, then?


They're not that clever, are they? 'kippers seem to struggle to hold one thought in their heads, let alone perform the artifice necessary to troll effectively.

I think LeslieB is the classic example of the character who's not nearly as clever as he'd like to think he is, and nowhere near as clever as he needs to be...


----------



## LeslieB (Feb 13, 2016)

danny la rouge said:


> Why did you vote UKIP in the Euros?



Completely off topic for this thread. I wanted an EU referendum. I have got one. Simples.


----------



## binka (Feb 13, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> Didums.  Is that supposed to make me change my mind. I'll bet lots of people who had operations cancelled were crying too- both in sadness, frustration and pain.


A friend of mine at work had her hernia op cancelled because of the strike. She has a chronic illness which means she uses the nhs on a monthly basis and ends up being hospitalised every couple of years. She fully supports the junior doctors strike because she's not a dickhead.


----------



## danny la rouge (Feb 13, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> Completely off topic for this thread.


Conversations are like that sometimes.


----------



## existentialist (Feb 13, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> Completely off topic for this thread. I wanted an EU referendum. I have got one. Simples.


*shakes head in dismay*


----------



## LeslieB (Feb 13, 2016)

binka said:


> A friend of mine at work had her hernia op cancelled because of the strike. She has a chronic illness which means she uses the nhs on a monthly basis and ends up being hospitalised every couple of years. She fully supports the junior doctors strike because she's not a dickhead.



She is a fool, then.


----------



## bimble (Feb 13, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> Simples.


Anyone who uses that word, ever = not someone worth conversing with. Thanks for clarifying.


----------



## binka (Feb 13, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> She is a fool, then.


For wanting to defend an nhs which has done it's best to try and keep her alive for the last decade? I don't know why I'm replying you're an obvious troll so I'm going to stop


----------



## LeslieB (Feb 13, 2016)

The more I think about this, the more I think we would be better stopping defending the NHS and starting replacing it with a continental style state insurance scheme.


----------



## existentialist (Feb 13, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> The more I think about this, the more I think we would be better stopping defending the NHS and starting replacing it with a continental style state insurance scheme.


The more *I* think about this, the more I think the time has come to starve attention-seeking little turds like you of the attention you so desperately appear to crave. Join Markytwat and co in my ignore list.


----------



## bimble (Feb 13, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> The more I think about this, the more I think we would be better stopping defending the NHS and starting replacing it with a continental style state insurance scheme.


Please, stop thinking and play with your cuddly meerkat collection there's a nice chap.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Feb 13, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> The more I think about this, the more I think we would be better stopping defending the NHS and starting replacing it with a continental style state insurance scheme.



Why replace something with a more expensive less effective alternative? In order to be a bit provocative on the internet isn't a good enough answer.

Louis MacNeice


----------



## Iolo (Feb 13, 2016)

The tories want to abolish the NHS to save their rich backers money and have us die younger, so that we are scared enough to touch our caps and eat shit.   This is what Bliar brought about be destroying democratic socialism.


----------



## YouSir (Feb 13, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> The more I think about this, the more I think we would be better stopping defending the NHS and starting replacing it with a continental style state insurance scheme.



Going on what I've seen so far I'd say calling anything you do 'thinking' is quite a stretch.


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 13, 2016)

Iolo said:


> The tories want to abolish the NHS to save their rich backers money and have us die younger, so that we are scared enough to touch our caps and eat shit.   This is what Bliar brought about be destroying democratic socialism.


I'm of the opinion that like in the US its a two part motive. One the huge profits to be made out of people who don't fancy dying or watching their kid go blind from a preventable, treatable ill. The other being the pressure it puts workers under to keep a job with a health plan, you'll eat a lot of shit before you give that up. Housing precarity in this country is similar imho. The stick of homelessness hanging over you and the carrot of maybe having a gaff of your own one day (increasingly a pipe dream). Food, health and shelter. Get people there and you scare them, keep them toeing a line. Plus you can milk them dry for money.


----------



## 2hats (Feb 13, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> But I still think doctors should have to work weekends. Just like the rest of the NHS, and quite a bit of the rest of the workforce.



I suggest that you do yourself a favour and expand your reading list beyond DM web article comments and Tory party central office press releases. Laughably (sadly), you don't even appear to be capable of seeing how all this will come back to bite you in the rear.

Doctors already work weekends; many NHS support staff (critical to progressing many cases) don't. Most of the working population don't work weekends. No sane individual would want a doctor making critical decisions about their health if said medic had had insufficient sleep and rest, and they were distracted by issues in their private/personal life which they didn't have the time to give the attention they require. They're injecting carefully chosen and titrated drugs into patients, not changing the barrel on the tap, trying to get you a better deal on your phone/insurance, logging your complaint about your net connection or resetting the self-scan till.


----------



## 2hats (Feb 13, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> I'm of the opinion that like in the US its a two part motive...



It's also about 'reforming' the NHS, reducing costs and expectations so that the slices carved off of it look like a better 'buy' for the private companies who take over. Lower the bar till the service is abysmal, unworkable - the private companies don't then have to make much effort to claim they have improved the situation and it is easier for the government to 'sell' privatisation as the solution, at least in the minds of the hard of thinking.


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 13, 2016)

2hats said:


> It's also about 'reforming' the NHS, reducing costs and expectations so that the slices carved off of it look like a better 'buy' for the private companies who take over. Lower the bar till the service is abysmal, unworkable - the private companies don't then have to make much effort to claim they have improved the situation and it is easier for the government to 'sell' privatisation as the solution, at least in the minds of the hard of thinking.


of course, its an MO so well worn as to become predictable now. Most recent example being Royal Mail- and in its end deliberatly undervalued despite market advice, the usual suspects gaining from this undervaluing. Osbournes mate made a killing on it. Thats normally called insider trading and people are supposed to go to jail for it. Mind you if osborne can't be shifted from position even after being pictured with a bowl of chang in front of him while in a brothel then what does it take.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 13, 2016)

Guineveretoo said:


> Coward Hunt Fails Miserably



Spoonerising the first two words of that link put a rather large smile on my face.


----------



## LeslieB (Feb 13, 2016)

2hats said:


> I s
> Doctors already work weekends; many NHS support staff (critical to progressing many cases) don't. Most of the working population don't work weekends.


A lot do, though. Perhaps we should allow the Army to only fight wars between 9 and 5, Monday to Friday. Or stop the trains on the weekend, or the police, or....well you get my point.

Of course people working weekends should get days off in the week, but I think a 7 day NHS is, fundamentally, a good idea.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 13, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> In the photo above I see nothing but fresh faced middle class kids who are treating this all as a big lark. Oh what jolly japes we are having, Justin!



Do one.
In fact, do several.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 13, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> they should be unshaven, huddled round a metal barrel with a fire in it looking grim of eye. Prat.



A brazier, Dotty. Huddled round a brazier.


----------



## 2hats (Feb 13, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> A lot do, though. Perhaps we should allow the Army to only fight wars between 9 and 5, Monday to Friday. Or stop the trains on the weekend, or the police, or....well you get my point.
> 
> Of course people working weekends should get days off in the week, but I think a 7 day NHS is, fundamentally, a good idea.



Which bit of 'doctors already work 7 days a week' are you not getting? Seems you are incapable of digesting other's points.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 13, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> I'm just pointing out that comparisons with the miners strike etc are so wide of the mark it's unreal.



It's not being "compared", an equivalence is being drawn between the state's intentions with the miners then, and the state's intentions with the doctors now.


----------



## LeslieB (Feb 13, 2016)

2hats said:


> Which bit of 'doctors already work 7 days a week' are you not getting?


The bit that says most of them don't.


----------



## LeslieB (Feb 13, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> It's not being "compared", an equivalence is being drawn between the state's intentions with the miners then, and the state's intentions with the doctors now.



Fair (er) enough. But if that is the case I think the state was wrong in the miners strike and correct now. Simple as that.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Feb 13, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> A lot do, though. Perhaps we should allow the Army to only fight wars between 9 and 5, Monday to Friday. Or stop the trains on the weekend, or the police, or....*well you get my point*.
> 
> Of course people working weekends should get days off in the week, but *I think a 7 day NHS is, fundamentally, a good idea*.



Firstly, you have no point since doctors already work weekends.

Secondly, we do have a seven day a week NHS.

How do you manage to get so much wrong in such a short post?


----------



## bimble (Feb 13, 2016)

If everyone would just ignore the Leslie it might go away and start another thread about immigration instead.


----------



## 2hats (Feb 13, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> The bit that says most of them don't.



I refer you back to the first paragraph of post #372.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Feb 13, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> Fair (er) enough. But if that is the case I think the state was wrong in the miners strike and correct now. Simple as that.



So the state was wrong to attack the organised labour movement but is right to attack the NHS? 

Why?

Is the NHS somehow anti-working class?


Louis MacNeice


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 13, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> I could never afford private healthcare in a million years. The point is, they are letting down the people, like me, who pay their salaries.



How? By striking to make sure that the care you get isn't from a cynical, over-worked and over-tired stress case?
I've had about 40 hours of outpatient treatment by junior grades in the last 12 months, stuff where an over-tired doctor doing any of the investigative procedures I've had could have caused life-changing or life-ending damage. Personally I'm glad that they're exercising their right to strike over the matter of the new contract. It shows a damn sight more social conscience than any member of the government has in this matter.


----------



## LeslieB (Feb 13, 2016)

If anyone is really, seriously interested in shifting their thinking about the public and private sectors in general.... and I mean seriously, then I would suggest watching this.



It's about six years old now, but still very relevant. But you have to watch the whole thing (an hour and a quarter's worth) to get the most out of it. The NHS isn't dealt with until the latter third of the programme.

This was a game changer in my thinking.


----------



## existentialist (Feb 13, 2016)

2hats said:


> I refer you back to the first paragraph of post #372.


You're wasting your time. If this arsewipe isn't just here to stir trouble, then his level of critical thinking is way below being able to understand the concept of truth.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 13, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> Oh the poor dear. I expect she will make a full recovery.
> 
> 
> Didums.  Is that supposed to make me change my mind. I'll bet lots of people who had operations cancelled were crying too- both in sadness, frustration and pain.



Here's hoping - and I'm being completely sincere when I say this - that you reap the whirlwind of your own stupidity.


----------



## LeslieB (Feb 13, 2016)

You guys are really lovely in the way you speak to people you don't agree with.

'Areswipe'  'cunt'  'dickhead'  'knobhead'  'fuckwit'

I don't think I've used any of those terms, once? (apart from above obviously!)


----------



## 03gills (Feb 13, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> Probably the only post I've read from your side of the argument I agree with.
> 
> But I still think doctors should have to work weekends. Just like the rest of the NHS, and quite a bit of the rest of the workforce.



They already *do* work weekends, you lobotomised shitlark.


----------



## BigTom (Feb 13, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> If anyone is really, seriously interested in shifting their thinking about the public and private sectors in general.... and I mean seriously, then I would suggest watching this.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




read this thread: britains 4.8 trillion pound debt

I'm not watching that pile of bilge again, Martin Durkin who made it is a well known bullshitter, his economic knowledge is terrible and he's a right wing cunt. Seriously, if that doco has changed your views then you need to work on your critical thinking and not swallow tory lies whole... although that's what you've done with immigration and the NHS so I don't hold out any hope.


----------



## LeslieB (Feb 13, 2016)

03gills said:


> They already *do* work weekends, you lobotomised shitlark.



At least you have put some effort into your insults I'll give you that.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Feb 13, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> If anyone is really, seriously interested in shifting their thinking about the public and private sectors in general.... and I mean seriously, then I would suggest watching this.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




The film maker knows as much about economics as he does about climate change...with the same pitiful results. If that film changed your thinking, then, as amply evidenced elsewhere, your thinking wasn't up to much in the first place.

An example of his economic ignorance is  his attempt to include pension provision in the 'debt'; he completely ignores the fact that pension provision has always been made by those currently in employment for those of retirement age (i.e. it has never been a debt).

Louis MacNeice


----------



## existentialist (Feb 13, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> You guys are really lovely in the way you speak to people you don't agree with.
> 
> 'Areswipe'  'cunt'  'dickhead'  'knobhead'  'fuckwit'
> 
> I don't think I've used any of those terms, once? (apart from above obviously!)


You didn't need to. The offensiveness of your views more than compensates for the prissiness of your language.

ETA: Cuntbubble.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 13, 2016)

binka said:


> A friend of mine at work had her hernia op cancelled because of the strike. She has a chronic illness which means she uses the nhs on a monthly basis and ends up being hospitalised every couple of years. She fully supports the junior doctors strike because she's not a dickhead.



Yup. I'm in the middle of an ongoing exploration by my local hospital to find out why I'm iron-deficient even though I'm taking a jumbo-level dose of iron daily (600mg), and losing weight even though I'm not dieting. It's scary because the default logic is "some sort of cancer". 
So far they've cleared my oesophagus and stomach down as far as my duodenum, and my colon up as far as the caecum (they found several diverticular pockets in my colon, which probably explains the so-called IBS I've had for a decade-and-a-half). Currently they're concentrating on the part of my gut between the duodenum and caecum, which has entailed CT scans and the swallowing of a fuck-off big capsule with a video camera and light-source in it, and wearing a belt-pack for a day that recorded data transmitted by the camera. 
If any of my appointments were or are affected by the strike, it won't bother me a bit. Patient safety is more important than me being inconvenienced.


----------



## LeslieB (Feb 13, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> Yup. I'm in the middle of an ongoing exploration by my local hospital to find out why I'm iron-deficient even though I'm taking a jumbo-level dose of iron daily (600mg), and losing weight even though I'm not dieting. It's scary because the default logic is "some sort of cancer".
> So far they've cleared my oesophagus and stomach down as far as my duodenum, and my colon up as far as the caecum (they found several diverticular pockets in my colon, which probably explains the so-called IBS I've had for a decade-and-a-half). Currently they're concentrating on the part of my gut between the duodenum and caecum, which has entailed CT scans and the swallowing of a fuck-off big capsule with a video camera and light-source in it, and wearing a belt-pack for a day that recorded data transmitted by the camera.
> If any of my appointments were or are affected by the strike, it won't bother me a bit. Patient safety is more important than me being inconvenienced.



Well can I wish you the opposite of what you've just wished me, and I hope that your troubles are soon diagnosed and sorted.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 13, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> You guys are really lovely in the way you speak to people you don't agree with.
> 
> 'Areswipe'  'cunt'  'dickhead'  'knobhead'  'fuckwit'
> 
> I don't think I've used any of those terms, once? (apart from above obviously!)



it's simple.
Stop being an arsewipe dickhead cunt, you knobhead fuckwit. If you do, people will stop calling you an arsewipe dickhead cunt, you knobhead fuckwit.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 13, 2016)

My first ever 'ignore'. I thought it would hurt...but it feels sooooo good!


----------



## Agent Sparrow (Feb 13, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> The bit that says most of them don't.


But if you include on call most do.  Or at least do for a high proportion of their various training roles if not all. 

There are many emergency services in the NHS who have fairly equal numbers of junior doctors working weekends. Then there are the routine 9-5 Mon-Fri services, many of which still have some sort of on call emergency cover. IME that cover is usually provided by junior doctors.

Obviously it varies depending on the particular speciality, but if there is no need for emergency weekend cover in a certain area why should it be be provided? Particularly when many of those services are still understaffed even between Monday to Friday thanks to current funding.


----------



## bimble (Feb 13, 2016)




----------



## 2hats (Feb 13, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> You guys are really lovely in the way you speak to people you don't agree with.


Feel free to quote back to me any abuse I've heaped upon you.


Louis MacNeice said:


> The film maker knows as much about economics as he does about climate change.


This. Plus half baked comparisons of government finances with domestic/personal financial situations. A documentary which immediately undermines itself by opening with commentary from the likes of Kelvin MacKenzie...


----------



## LeslieB (Feb 13, 2016)

brogdale said:


> My first ever 'ignore'. I thought it would hurt...but it feels sooooo good!


I can't believe someone would block me based purely on my political views. 

This is a politics forum, surely you expect a range of views?


----------



## Guineveretoo (Feb 13, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> The bit that says most of them don't.


All junior doctors work weekends!!

It is a contractual obligation.


----------



## nino_savatte (Feb 13, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> I can't believe someone would block me based purely on my political views


No, he's blocked you because you're trolling. Your political views - such as they are - are confused and incoherent. Next?


----------



## Lord Camomile (Feb 13, 2016)

To be honest, it does feel like the constant addition of the caveat "(for emergencies)" to the insistence that the NHS is already a 24/7 service might undermine the argument.

At the very least I think it's worth pointing out that we could have a true 24/7 service, where you get the same level of service regardless of the time or day, but the government needs to provide the fucking resources for it. Staff aren't objecting to the concept, simply the multifaceted cackhandedness of the execution (this is something of a guess, they may be objecting to the concept itself, I haven't really spoken to the 98% of voting junior doctors who voted to strike).

You see it in every workplace - indeed, it's currently happening in mine - where management want to increase the service without increasing costs, so they spread the same resources thinner and thinner until they break, and then blame the resources for not being able to spread thin enough.

Like I say, it's happening where I work, it's happening with the tubes and they're trying to do it with the NHS.

Of course, in the case of the NHS the motivation for doing this is altogether more sinister and heinous.


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 13, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> A brazier, Dotty. Huddled round a brazier.


or in the case of the suffragies women, huddled around burning brasierres.
I was thinking this about the chartists the other day as well. You spend all that time and struggle to reform an electoral system and somehow they are _still _fucking us. Off topic a bit I know but I can't help think of the men and women who gave so much to make a democracy in name a democracy in fact. And here we still are.

Its instructive and a little depressing to see how these things pan out, the way in which an employer is never held to be the responsible party for organised withdrawal of labour. Always the uppity worker, the mouthy citizen smith etc etc


----------



## Guineveretoo (Feb 13, 2016)

Lord Camomile said:


> To be honest, it does feel like the constant addition of the caveat "(for emergencies)" to the insistence that the NHS is already a 24/7 service might undermine the argument.
> 
> At the very least I think it's worth pointing out that we could have a true 24/7 service, where you get the same level of service regardless of the time or day, but the government needs to provide the fucking resources for it. Staff aren't objecting to the concept, simply the multifaceted cackhandedness of the execution (this is something of a guess, they may be objecting to the concept itself, I haven't really spoken to the 98% of voting junior doctors who voted to strike).
> 
> ...


Nobody is objecting to a 7 day NHS, including the doctors' unions, besides, what is already there is not just for emergencies. For example, there will be many inpatients who need care over the weekend, so there are always junior doctors on rota. Often, those doctors are frustrated because they want to send someone for a scan, but there are not enough radiologists on at weekends, or for a blood test, ditto, or whatever, because those really are just there for emergencies, whereas junior doctors across every specialism will work at weekends and often have to wait until Monday or whatever, to get tests done.

There are many hospitals, however, which already do routine tests at weekends - I went for a diabetic retinopathy test on a Saturday, and my father went for a routine MRI scan at a weekend, for example.

The key factor does down to cost, though. In order to establish safe, 7-day working, the government will have to put more money in, and will need to invest in doctors, nurses, radiologists, phlebotomists, cleaners, caterers, porters etc. etc. But they will also need to invest in more facilities/beds, because very few hospitals have empty beds/trolleys available for this extra work the government wants to impose on them.

It is critical for all of us, as potential or actual patients, as trade unionists, and/or as socialists, to fight this attack with every means at our disposal. 

This is an attack on the infrastructure, and therefore the future, of the NHS as well as on the individuals who work within it.


----------



## existentialist (Feb 13, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> or in the case of the suffragies women, huddled around burning brasierres.
> I was thinking this about the chartists the other day as well. You spend all that time and struggle to reform an electoral system and somehow they are _still _fucking us. Off topic a bit I know but I can't help think of the men and women who gave so much to make a democracy in name a democracy in fact. And here we still are.
> 
> Its instructive and a little depressing to see how these things pan out, the way in which an employer is never held to be the responsible party for organised withdrawal of labour. Always the uppity worker, the mouthy citizen smith etc etc


Well, that view will always exist. What, for me, is so depressing is that a) we have a media which seems much happier overall to present one side of the narrative, and b) a population which seems to me to be overwhelmingly gullible and self-interested to the exclusion of the idea that anyone might make a contribution to society which isn't solely about being paid the minimum amount possible for the maximum amount of sweat.

It's as if everybody's forgotten that pure short-term economics aren't the only game in town, and nowhere is this more obvious than in this futile punchup with the doctors.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 13, 2016)

Guineveretoo said:


> Nobody is objecting to a 7 day NHS, including the doctors' unions, besides, what is already there is not just for emergencies. For example, there will be many inpatients who need care over the weekend, so there are always junior doctors on rota. Often, those doctors are frustrated because they want to send someone for a scan, but there are not enough radiologists on at weekends, or for a blood test, ditto, or whatever, because those really are just there for emergencies, whereas junior doctors across every specialism will work at weekends and often have to wait until Monday or whatever, to get tests done.
> 
> There are many hospitals, however, which already do routine tests at weekends - I went for a diabetic retinopathy test on a Saturday, and my father went for a routine MRI scan at a weekend, for example.



Yep. I had an MRI on a Saturday at Guys way back in 2012, and have a clinical appointment on the 27th - a Saturday.



> The key factor does down to cost, though. In order to establish safe, 7-day working, the government will have to put more money in, and will need to invest in doctors, nurses, radiologists, phlebotomists, cleaners, caterers, porters etc. etc. But they will also need to invest in more facilities/beds, because very few hospitals have empty beds/trolleys available for this extra work the government wants to impose on them.



And of course one of the major resource drains - spending on agency personnel - won't be tackled significantly because of being a cash-cow for some of the very companies that Hunt wants to sell chunks of NHS services to.



> It is critical for all of us, as potential or actual patients, as trade unionists, and/or as socialists, to fight this attack with every means at our disposal.
> 
> This is an attack on the infrastructure, and therefore the future, of the NHS as well as on the individuals who work within it.



Unfortunately, there are none so blind as those who will not see.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 13, 2016)

existentialist said:


> Well, that view will always exist. What, for me, is so depressing is that a) we have a media which seems much happier overall to present one side of the narrative, and b) a population which seems to me to be overwhelmingly gullible and self-interested to the exclusion of the idea that anyone might make a contribution to society which isn't solely about being paid the minimum amount possible for the maximum amount of sweat.



I'm not sure it's gullibility, but rather the combination of "keep your head down/nose clean" and fatalism that Orwell attributes to the Proles in "1984", so self-interest *does* feature somewhat, in the guise of "self-preservation". 



> It's as if everybody's forgotten that pure short-term economics aren't the only game in town, and nowhere is this more obvious than in this futile punchup with the doctors.



For 30 or more years now, people have been educated/indoctrinated to believe that the short-termism inherent to neoliberal economics is not only "the only game in town", but the only rational choice. People haven't forgotten, it's more that alternatives seem "fringe" or otherwise beyond the pale.


----------



## LeslieB (Feb 13, 2016)

nino_savatte said:


> Your political views - such as they are - are confused and incoherent.


Sure. I don't agree with any one party about everything. 

My political views are a mish mash of Labour, Tory and 'kip...., is that a bad thing?


----------



## planetgeli (Feb 13, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> My political views are a mish mash of Labour, Tory and 'kip...., is that a bad thing?



In that it reflects well on neither you nor them...yes.


----------



## two sheds (Feb 13, 2016)

Picking the worst from each.


----------



## LeslieB (Feb 13, 2016)

two sheds said:


> Picking the worst from each.


Well that's obviously your opinion. ....


----------



## nino_savatte (Feb 13, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> Sure. I don't agree with any one party about everything.
> 
> My political views are a mish mash of Labour, Tory and 'kip...., is that a bad thing?


Er, yeah, actually it is. It means you're the reason why this country is so fucked. Then again, you could be one of those divvy Third Position types. Is that what you are, Les? A Third Positioner?


----------



## existentialist (Feb 13, 2016)

nino_savatte said:


> Er, yeah, actually it is. It means you're the reason why this country is so fucked. Then again, you could be one of those divvy Third Position types. Is that what you are, Les? A Third Positioner?


I think he's Lezza to his mates...


----------



## LeslieB (Feb 14, 2016)

nino_savatte said:


> Er, yeah, actually it is. It means you're the reason why this country is so fucked. Then again, you could be one of those divvy Third Position types. Is that what you are, Les? A Third Positioner?


What is a third positioner?


----------



## stethoscope (Feb 14, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> My political views are a mish mash of Labour, Tory and 'kip...., is that a bad thing?



If you need to ask this, well, er


----------



## LeslieB (Feb 14, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> If you need to ask this, well, er


Fine. I was merely pointing out the absurdity of going on a politics board- you know one where you *debate* politics- and then blocking someone purely because their views on one particular subject are different from your own.  Ho hum.


----------



## existentialist (Feb 14, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> Fine. I was merely pointing out the absurdity of going on a politics board- you know one where you *debate* politics- and then blocking someone purely because their views on one particular subject are different from your own.  Ho hum.


That's not the only reason that people get blocked. I've blocked you, too, and it's nothing to do with your laughably simplistic "political views", but your clodhoppingly ignorant lack of awareness that there can be any other point of view than yours.

You've demonstrated it again right here: you've had it pointed out that you haven't necessarily been put on ignore because of your views, but you just carry on whingeing that you have.

Also, if you think that what should be done on here is to "debate politics", then how about giving it a go? Instead of endlessly rehearsing irrational fact-free posturing, which isn't the same thing.


----------



## LeslieB (Feb 14, 2016)

Not a great start to a fresh start.

I would apologise, but I'm not quite sure what I would be apologising for.

I'm obviously sorry if people are offended but I m not sure what I've said that is offensive.......


----------



## existentialist (Feb 14, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> Not a great start to a fresh start.
> 
> I would apologise, but I'm not quite sure what I would be apologising for.
> 
> I'm obviously sorry if people are offended but I m not sure what I've said that is offensive.......


We're not offended; we just think you're an idiot. There's a difference: again, if you pay a little attention to more than just the voices in your head, you might realise this for yourself.


----------



## kropotkin (Feb 14, 2016)

bimble said:


> Also.. don't know how many other professions require you to pay hundreds of quid out of your salary every year in order to do compulsory exams , be insured and a member of the GMC etc?


Ha! "hundreds". This year (Aug 15 to Aug 16) I'm currently on £2500. And we are in February!


----------



## nino_savatte (Feb 14, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> What is a third positioner?


I'm surprised you didn't add *innocent face* to your reply.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 14, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> Not a great start to a fresh start.
> 
> I would apologise, but I'm not quite sure what I would be apologising for.
> 
> I'm obviously sorry if people are offended but I m not sure what I've said that is offensive.......


for existing perhaps


----------



## LeslieB (Feb 14, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> for existing perhaps


Oh lovely.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 14, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> Oh lovely.


yeh didn't think you had the balls.


----------



## LeslieB (Feb 14, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh didn't think you had the balls.


The balls for what?


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 14, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> The balls for what?


a wide-ranging and freely given apology for your existence and any inconvenience or distress you might have caused.


----------



## 2hats (Feb 14, 2016)

bimble said:


> Also.. don't know how many other professions require you to pay hundreds of quid out of your salary every year in order to do compulsory exams , be insured and a member of the GMC etc?



Just to add - annual bar fees for a friend (admittedly in another EU country) run to several thousand euro. Don't pay (and in fact, fail to attend, at your own expense, more than a certain number of meetings, seminars and conferences each year; 10+) and your right to practice law is revoked. I would imagine fees for not dissimilar professional structures in the medical world would run into thousands per year too.

e2a: I see that what kropotkin has contributed confirms this.


----------



## LeslieB (Feb 14, 2016)

I'm freely apologising for any offence.  Not for my existence or my views.

And since I've been comprehensively outed,  I'm going to take the opportunity to apologise for my past behaviour on here as well.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 14, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> I'm freely apologising for any offence.  Not for my existence or my views.
> 
> And since I've been comprehensively outed,  I'm going to take the opportunity to apologise for my past behaviour on here as well.


it's nice to see you start to take responsibility for yourself


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 14, 2016)

does my head in that we get this with every strike ever. Workers painted as greedy, on ludicrously generous contracts, engaged in spanish practises etc. In order to refute this you have to go over the reasons for the dispute and explain exactly how these workers operate and under what t&c's etc. 
gives the impression that special pleading for a certain 'caste' of worker is being done when in fact its just the neccesary refutation of lies about junior doctors with gold plated yachts.


----------



## purenarcotic (Feb 14, 2016)

It costs a huge amount as a doctor to train to be a consultant for example. It's not just the costs of the exams though, it's all the time you need to study properly. I don't want overtired, underpaid doctors trying to cram in their studying. Seems like the perfect ingredients for all sorts of fuck ups.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 14, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> I'm freely apologising for any offence.  Not for my existence or my views.
> 
> And since I've been comprehensively outed,  I'm going to take the opportunity to apologise for my past behaviour on here as well.


You mean starting racists threads? That sort of thing? And continuing doing what you did to get you banned? No one wants you here. Stop wasting peoples time. Just go.


----------



## LeslieB (Feb 14, 2016)

Oh for fucks sake.  Eight years ago.

Edit: reading it again all I see is someone desperately trying not to be misunderstood.


----------



## Smangus (Feb 14, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> Oh for fucks sake.  Eight years ago.


Happy Valentine's day ! Innit.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 14, 2016)

Smangus said:


> Happy Valentine's day ! Innit.


happy valentine's day, innit


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 14, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> Oh for fucks sake.  Eight years ago.


and how do you get on with people of south asian descent now?


----------



## LeslieB (Feb 14, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> and how do you get on with people of south asian descent now?


Fine thanks.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 14, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> Fine thanks.


and the welsh, do you have any issues with the welsh?


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 14, 2016)

Should Black and Asian people be allowed to vote

This is the type of person this poster is. I vote that we ignore them until they are banned. Which they will be when they try and up the attention seeking ante if we ignore them.


----------



## LeslieB (Feb 14, 2016)

Oh for fucks sake seven years ago.


----------



## LeslieB (Feb 14, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Should Black and Asian people be allowed to vote
> 
> This is the type of person this poster is. I vote that we ignore them until they are banned.



Don't worry I've already requested a ban. You must be very proud.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Feb 14, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> Oh for fucks sake seven years ago.



You don't seem to have changed much in the interim.


----------



## bimble (Feb 14, 2016)

.


----------



## YouSir (Feb 14, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> Don't worry I've already requested a ban. You must be very proud.



You seem to be feeling quite sorry for yourself there. Which might be part of the problem.

That and the things you seem to say of course.


----------



## nino_savatte (Feb 14, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> Oh for fucks sake seven years ago.


So that _was_ you then? Bye.


----------



## LeslieB (Feb 15, 2016)

YouSir said:


> You seem to be feeling quite sorry for yourself there. Which might be part of the problem.



Yes it might. And since I still appear to be here, can I just say I think Pickmans and Butchers are the last ones who can talk. 

Luckily I've got about a quarter of a million better things to do with my time, but if I didn't I suspect I'd find one or two things in their 250,000 combined posts they would be happier to forget. 

I'd be the first to admit I can be an idiot on occasion, but you pair have had your moments too.....


----------



## bimble (Feb 15, 2016)

This Hunt "interview" (/ press release) in the Guardian this morning, it's so cosy you could almost miss the Behold the Great Statesman side of it.
Not a critical question in sight .
Jeremy Hunt on the NHS: 'I think this decade needs to see the quality revolution'


----------



## LeslieB (Feb 15, 2016)

To be fair, the Guardian aren't exactly full of pieces portraying Tories in a sympathetic light. This is the problem when you replace a printed newspaper with online. This piece is probably in the middle of a flurry of pro junior doctors pieces but you wouldn't know that.


----------



## bimble (Feb 15, 2016)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Drinks event with Jeremy Hunt cancelled after junior doctors bought tickets


So..this is what happened next apparently, after they twigged that some doctors had bought tickets to that thing: It wasn't exactly cancelled it was quietly moved to another location. 
Tory activists prevent doctors from attending event with Jeremy Hunt


----------



## stethoscope (Feb 15, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> To be fair, the Guardian aren't exactly full of pieces portraying Tories in a sympathetic light. This is the problem when you replace a printed newspaper with online. This piece is probably in the middle of a flurry of pro junior doctors pieces but you wouldn't know that.



Here's a nice puff piece for Jeremy this morning.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Feb 15, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> Sure. I don't agree with any one party about everything.
> 
> My political views are a mish mash of Labour, Tory and 'kip...., is that a bad thing?



I don't have a problem with you picking and choosing policies and positions from different parties. 

It does grate when you contradict yourself and refuse to engage with evidence /arguments presented to you.

Its the incoherence and seemingly willful avoidance that gives you such a troll like appearance and I guess is why you've been put on ignore; not because of any disagreement.

Louis MacNeice


----------



## Sasaferrato (Feb 17, 2016)

I'm home, so not posting one tedious letter at a time on my tablet.

Let me make my position regarding this odious and unnecessary strike crystal clear.

I wanted to be a doctor, however, I didn't want it enough to work hard enough at school to get the required Highers, so I became a nurse instead.

Medicine or nursing is a calling, or should be. It is not just a 'job', it is much more than that. I did not become a nurse to make money, I became a nurse to help people, and considered it a huge privilege to be able to do so. 

As a nurse, I knew things about people that their wives/husbands didn't know, people trusted me to maintain absolute confidentiality, and did so automatically. It was a hugely responsible occupation, get it wrong and someone is injured or dead. Your patients trust you to act competently, especially in knowing your own limitations, and get them more skilled help when required. It is an occupation, especially in ICU, where you have to be on the top of your game every day. I loved it, and sometimes regret that I was seduced away by pharmacy. (Pharmacy also requires you to be on the top of your game, especially as you are saving the arses of junior doctors on a regular basis, with regard to dosages and interactions.)

Having looked at the contract on offer, it is reasonable. There are many people in the country who receive no financial enhancement for working weekends, and on that basis the contract is fair. The pay increase of 13% is 13 times what I got this year and last (the previous 3 years there was no increase at all.), and does compensate for the lost Saturday enhancement.

As I said at the top, medicine is a calling. If it isn't, then you are in the wrong job. As in nursing now, I feel that people are entering the medical profession for the wrong reasons. The work is hard and long, if you are not prepared to accept that, go and do something else. There are times when things go really wrong, and you work way beyond your shift end, you don't go until things are stable. It is an intrinsic part of the work, and yo do not expect payment for it.

Bring medicine and nursing into being 'just a job' at your own risk, and hell mend you when the surgeon doing your open heart surgery, looks at the clock and says 'right, that's 5pm, I'm off'.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Feb 17, 2016)

kropotkin said:


> Ha! "hundreds". This year (Aug 15 to Aug 16) I'm currently on £2500. And we are in February!



Which of course you can reclaim on your Tax Return. Mandatory fees for registration to a professional body are 100% reclaimable.


----------



## Guineveretoo (Feb 17, 2016)

Not one doctor will get a 13% pay rise! 

I don't know which paper you read, but you need to stop believing what you have read. 

As you know, junior doctors already work weekends. There are currently safeguards in place, including financial penalties, to stop their hospitals from making them work too many hours. Those safeguards are removed in the new contract.


----------



## existentialist (Feb 17, 2016)

You see, Sass, I don't see the doctors making this "just a job".

But, in his studied disregard for the professionalism and commitment of these essential people, it seems to me as if Jeremy Hunt - who, it should be noted, has not met with *a single doctor in connection with this contract change* - is doing exactly that: to him, these motivated, highly-skilled, and professional people are no different from the zero-hours wageslaves working in Poundland or assembling sandwiches in some windowless shed on a Corby industrial estate.


----------



## Guineveretoo (Feb 17, 2016)

And to a large extent, the details are irrelevant, because the main issue here is the employer/government refused to negotiate and, when the union would not give in on every single aspect tabled, they imposed the contract. 

The implication of this is huge and wide-ranging, and will affect other health professionals and staff and union members across the whole public sector.


----------



## Guineveretoo (Feb 17, 2016)

I have never met a junior doctor who is just in it for the money. They would be an odd person if they were, in view of the amount of work involved, and debt accrued, even before they become junior doctors!

And I have met a lot of junior doctors.


----------



## existentialist (Feb 17, 2016)

Sasaferrato said:


> Which of course you can reclaim on your Tax Return. Mandatory fees for registration to a professional body are 100% reclaimable.


That only means you effectively don't pay tax on the money you used to pay the registration fees - you're still paying out a lot of money from your own pocket in order to be able to practice.


----------



## two sheds (Feb 17, 2016)

two sheds said:


> Hunt stresses that the new contract will be cost neutral. Instead of 5-day cover there will be 7-day cover. How is that a 13% pay rise, Sass?



Sasaferrato


----------



## Lord Camomile (Feb 17, 2016)

Sasaferrato said:


> There are many people in the country who receive no financial enhancement for working weekends, and on that basis the contract is fair.


Please excuse the slight flippancy, but to me that reads as "based on the unfairness of everyone else's working conditions, the contract is fair".


Sasaferrato said:


> Medicine or nursing is a calling, or should be. It is not just a 'job', it is much more than that. I did not become a nurse to make money, I became a nurse to help people, and considered it a huge privilege to be able to do so.


Aside from the fact these two points undermine each other slightly (if it's "not just a job" then how can you compare it to other jobs?), I think many are acutely aware that medicine is more than just a way to pay your bills. But, it doesn't follow from that that a career in medicine shouldn't also allow you to pay your bills, and _comfortably_. As you and many others have said, medical practitioners bear a far greater responsibility than most 'normal jobs', and most of us would rather they were in the best condition they could be, not tired, or distracted by other concerns.

The idea that you either get paid a decent wage or you do it "for the calling" is pretty bogus imho.


----------



## BigTom (Feb 17, 2016)

Sasaferrato said:


> I'm home, so not posting one tedious letter at a time on my tablet.
> 
> Let me make my position regarding this odious and unnecessary strike crystal clear.
> 
> ...



If it were up to you, between 75% and 98% of junior doctors in the NHS wouldn't be there and you wouldn't have a surgeon at all.

Seriously, the people who are best placed to understand how this pay changes will work out and what the effect will be on the NHS and patient care of the changes in conditions and extended weekend working are the people who actually currently work in the NHS. Having never worked in medicine, let alone the NHS, I will bow to the decision of what is as close to unanimity as possible of the doctors. Your military experience as a nurse doesn't give you a better standing than virtually every single junior doctor in the NHS to say whether it is fair or not and I think you should do the same - because the outcome of your position as stated is what I said in my first sentence.


----------



## nino_savatte (Feb 18, 2016)

Sasaferrato said:


> Medicine or nursing is a calling, or should be. It is not just a 'job', it is much more than that. I did not become a nurse to make money, I became a nurse to help people, and considered it a huge privilege to be able to do so.


And so you put medics on a par with the parish priest or the nun. Fascinating. 

What you seem to be suggesting is that medical staff (in this case junior doctors) should be glad to work for peanuts.



Sasaferrato said:


> Having looked at the contract on offer, it is reasonable.



Oh? How so? Are you now an expert in contract law?



Sasaferrato said:


> As I said at the top, medicine is a calling. If it isn't, then you are in the wrong job. As in nursing now, I feel that people are entering the medical profession for the wrong reasons. The work is hard and long, if you are not prepared to accept that, go and do something else. There are times when things go really wrong, and you work way beyond your shift end, you don't go until things are stable. It is an intrinsic part of the work, and yo do not expect payment for it.



And what are these "wrong reasons" pray tell? Again, you seem to be suggesting that people (in this case junior doctors) should be glad to work for nothing.


----------



## Teaboy (Feb 18, 2016)

I'm having a few mixed feelings on this strike that perhaps urban can help reconcile for me. 

On the one hand I have the natural inclination to support workers who are looking to defend rights and naturally if they choose to withdraw labour then that is their right and they should be supported.  Plus, of course, they're Doctors - who doesn't like Doctors?  They save lives, right?

Then on the other hand I start wondering who these people actually are and that picture of Gove on the NUJ picket line springs to mind.  We all know what background the vast majority of Doctors come from, the sort of people who have propped up the Tories and Lib Dems for years, is that right?  Yup they're all for solidarity now but soon as they get into that voting booth what solidarity will they show?

Maybe I'm tainted because I've had the misfortune to have two local MP's (lib dem and tory) who are Doctors.  My local tory MP is a doctor and a complete shit bag. Someone who sees no contradiction in volunteering as a doctor in war zones and then marching into the commons and voting for air strikes. She sees no contradiction in spending her professional life trying to help sick people but then actively supports austerity, ATOS assessments, dismantling of the NHS etc etc. 

I know any profession is going to be a broad church but I do wonder about the people we are supporting here.


----------



## Sprocket. (Feb 18, 2016)

Teaboy, I fully understand the feelings of supporting the junior doctors you are having. There is that deep rooted feeling still,  especially where I live in South Yorkshire that where were the doctors on the picket lines during the miners strike and the steel strikes. There will always be the division, exploited by the media, that the doctors are pretty well off, some from very privileged backgrounds.
But my belief on this particular case is that this is another move to cause the NHS to fail, thus allowing private finance to be introduced and take over. The staff at the NHS, the cleaners, porters and maintenance staff have in a lot of trusts been edged out and now work for private, multinational service providers.
We should have fought tooth and nail as a furious gathering of citizens to stop all the PFI palaver and it's continuance for the last thirty years.
The NHS along with vast sections of the welfare state have been dismantled by stealth, this could be one of the last opportunities to make a stand. It is our NHS built and financed by us. We should have a service that is a beacon to the world, good health care must be a human right.
The attack on the doctors, whether they have the good manners to remember our support or not, should be a line in the sand.


----------



## Guineveretoo (Feb 19, 2016)

Actually, doctors, like the rest of the population, are made of people from many different backgrounds, politically and culturally. 

I know quite a few, through my father, who are Tories, but I know many, many more who are not from privileged backgrounds, and who are most certainly lefties. 

One of my very best friends, who was with me at Greenham Common in the 1980s, is now a hospital doctor (she is about to emigrate to New Zealand, though, so probably not a good idea of one who is prepared to keep fighting, but still...), and I know many, many more, professionally and personally, who have shown support and solidarity to other workers, and been on anti-austerity and ant-war marches etc. etc.


----------



## two sheds (Feb 21, 2016)

two sheds said:


> Hunt stresses that the new contract will be cost neutral. Instead of 5-day cover there will be 7-day cover. How is that a 13% pay rise, Sass?



Sasaferrato 

This was the reason you described the doctors as 'scum' Sas, so it would be nice if you could explain.


----------



## Greasy Boiler (Feb 22, 2016)

The basic rate rise is only a small part of the picture though. Remember, this 7 day a week thing was billed from the get go as "cost neutral" - there's no extra money paying for it so there's inevitably going to be winners and losers. 

This new contract completely changes the way in which junior doctors are paid for out-of-hours work. Up until now a doctor that regularly worked unsociable hours would receive an additional 'banding' on top of their basic pay (up to 40% ) to make up for it. This new contract basically does away with this and instead pays a smaller premium per anti sociable hour worked, hours that have at the same time been substantially reduced. Then there are the changes to  pay progression, removal of gp training supplement etc, etc...

The problem of over-worked, over-stressed junior doctors on chaotic rotas was the very reason why the banding system was introduced in the first place. It was successful but now its being thrown away all in the name of for a last-minute election gimmick of questionable utility* by people who probably deep down would far prefer a 0-day a week NHS.

*BMJ Careers - Seven day NHS would not be cost effective use of resources, researchers say


----------



## teqniq (Feb 22, 2016)

Looks like they're not backing down, not that I really expected them to.

Escalating junior doctors' strikes may include 'first ever full walkout'



> Doctors' unions are planning a series of "escalating" strikes over controversial plans to impose a new contract on junior doctors
> 
> The junior doctors committee of the British Medical Association (BMA) intends to inform the NHS of a string of strikes, which would likely include the first ever full walkout by junior doctors if previous strike action fails...


----------



## Whagwan (Feb 23, 2016)

They've just announce three 48hr strikes and a judicial review into having the contracts imposed on them.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Feb 23, 2016)

Link  - http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...industrial-action-new-contracts-a6891466.html


----------



## Lord Camomile (Feb 23, 2016)

> The three strikes in March and April will each last 48 hours, although emergency cover will be provided:
> 
> Wednesday 9 March from 8am
> Wednesday 6 April from 8am
> Tuesday 26 April from 8am


----------



## Lord Camomile (Feb 23, 2016)

Lord Camomile said:


> I'm organising a screening of Pride in April and I'm starting to think this will be a good theme for a Q&A afterwards - how we should all be supporting each others' fights, not just tackling our own disputes. For example, I'm going to look into how my union can support the junior doctors.


This is slated for 27th April.

Could be interesting...!


----------



## bimble (Feb 23, 2016)

I wonder what will happen with this judicial review, which is apparently based on the idea that there was no 'Equality Impact Assessmnet' before the decision was made to force doctors to sign the new contracts ?
BMA — Junior Doctors: Fight Against Imposition Begins | British Medical Association


----------



## redsquirrel (Feb 23, 2016)

Whagwan said:


> They've just announce three 48hr strikes and a judicial review into having the contracts imposed on them.


Good, best of luck to them.


----------



## existentialist (Feb 23, 2016)

bimble said:


> I wonder what will happen with this judicial review, which is apparently based on the idea that there was no 'Equality Impact Assessmnet' before the decision was made to force doctors to sign the new contracts ?
> BMA — Junior Doctors: Fight Against Imposition Begins | British Medical Association


If nothing else, I think it is a very sound tactical move of theirs: it rather gives the lie to the inevitable "they're all militants, just striking for the shits'n'giggles, oh, and the Marxism, obvs" propaganda that will get trotted out. People striking for fun or the overthrow of the Establishment don't generally invoke the Establishment in support of their actions.

I just hope the Establishment delivers...which is by no means a certainty, though I imagine that by now even the judiciary are beginning to get a little tired of Call Me Dave's riding roughshod over the Established Customs of the Land as and when it suits him.


----------



## danny la rouge (Feb 23, 2016)

Whagwan said:


> They've just announce three 48hr strikes and a judicial review into having the contracts imposed on them.


Solidarity and best wishes to them.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 23, 2016)

existentialist said:


> If nothing else, I think it is a very sound tactical move of theirs: it rather gives the lie to the inevitable "they're all militants, just striking for the shits'n'giggles, oh, and the Marxism, obvs" propaganda that will get trotted out. People striking for fun or the overthrow of the Establishment don't generally invoke the Establishment in support of their actions.
> 
> I just hope the Establishment delivers...which is by no means a certainty, though I imagine that by now even the judiciary are beginning to get a little tired of Call Me Dave's riding roughshod over the Established Customs of the Land as and when it suits him.


With a divided, pre-occupied party in 'pre-election' mode, it's also tactically astute to continue the challenge over the next few months.


----------



## killer b (Feb 24, 2016)

Some blatant fibbing uncovered at the DoH. Hopefully there'll be some ramifications...

Junior doctors' row: Hunt's 6,000 deaths claim 'was unverified' - BBC News


----------



## teqniq (Feb 26, 2016)

Jeremy Hunt called 'a liar' by junior doctor live on Question Time


----------



## Lord Camomile (Feb 26, 2016)

teqniq said:


> Jeremy Hunt called 'a liar' by junior doctor live on Question Time


Fair play to him for getting the point across.

I have been thinking recently about how frustrating it must be in parliament to not be able to just call someone a liar when they're lying.


----------



## two sheds (Feb 26, 2016)

And lying about them getting more money under the new contract, too. 



two sheds said:


> Sasaferrato
> 
> This was the reason you described the doctors as 'scum' Sas, so it would be nice if you could explain.



A lot of junior doctors are working long hours to save lives under extreme pressure. It's low of you to join in with the kicking, Sas. Would you like to withdraw it?


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 26, 2016)

Lord Camomile said:


> Fair play to him for getting the point across.
> 
> I have been thinking recently about how frustrating it must be in parliament to not be able to just call someone a liar when they're lying.


you can. You just have to do so in paliamentary language. So no doing a big itchy chin and chanting 'pants on fire'.


----------



## Lord Camomile (Feb 26, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> you can. You just have to do so in paliamentary language. So no doing a big itchy chin and chanting 'pants on fire'.


What is the parliamentary language? Are you allowed to say "you're not telling the truth and you know it; it's a willful act to say something that isn't true, it's not a mistake"?


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 26, 2016)

Lord Camomile said:


> What is the parliamentary language? Are you allowed to say "you're not telling the truth and you know it; it's a willful act to say something that isn't true, it's not a mistake"?



I think you'd have to adress the facts with your own. So 'mr speaker, when the right hon says xyz and references 234 I must question the veracity of his research as I have here....and then maybe get away with 'one wonders if the honourable gent has not simply siezed upon fallacious data to fuirther his own agendas'

dunno if you could get away with that last bit. Probably. But parliamentary privilege means you can name and defame in the House without fear of libel proceedings or a duel. Say fuck or clap and your out on yer ear tho


----------



## Lord Camomile (Feb 26, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> I think you'd have to adress the facts with your own. So 'mr speaker, when the right hon says xyz and references 234 I must question the veracity of his research as I have here....and then maybe get away with 'one wonders if the honourable gent has not simply siezed upon fallacious data to fuirther his own agendas'
> 
> dunno if you could get away with that last bit.


That's the problem though - you can present counter-info but you can't just come out and say "you said something you _know_ isn't true".

You can on QT though


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 26, 2016)

Lord Camomile said:


> That's the problem though - you can present counter-info but *you can't just come out and say "you said something you know isn't true*".
> 
> You can on QT though


well no, its that archaism of coming from a time when people offered each other out for duels over the slightest of insult, percieved or real. Same as adressing the speaker rather than your enemy on the other bench. Its not a direct insult if you parse it through posh speak and adress it to the speaker.

And these cunts have the gall to tell othersabout 'modernise! reform! streamline'


----------



## Teaboy (Feb 26, 2016)

Apparently under some circumstance you can call someone a liar in Parliament.  Here is one such example and by remarkable coincidence its Hunt again who's pants are on fire.

Rhondda MP Chris Bryant calls Culture Secretary Jeremy Hunt a 'liar'


----------



## Lord Camomile (Mar 9, 2016)

Passed them again on my way to work; nabbed a sticker but didn't have time for a selfie 

Bit annoyed at myself as I meant to take some time off to go support them but wasn't organised enough. Hopefully will sort it out for April


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 9, 2016)

Teaboy said:


> Apparently under some circumstance you can call someone a liar in Parliament.  Here is one such example and by remarkable coincidence its Hunt again who's pants are on fire.
> 
> Rhondda MP Chris Bryant calls Culture Secretary Jeremy Hunt a 'liar'


if ever there's been a day for jeremy hunt's trousers to ignite, "today's the day"


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 9, 2016)

Hunt being awarded Dick of the Year trophy...


----------



## Lord Camomile (Mar 9, 2016)

Lord Camomile said:


> I'm organising a screening of Pride in April and I'm starting to think this will be a good theme for a Q&A afterwards - how we should all be supporting each others' fights, not just tackling our own disputes. For example, I'm going to look into how my union can support the junior doctors.





Lord Camomile said:


> This is slated for 27th April.


Mike Jackson from LGSM (i.e. one of the main "characters" in Pride) just confirmed  

Now to find some good speakers from TUC and BMA.


----------



## Guineveretoo (Mar 9, 2016)

Lord Camomile said:


> Mike Jackson from LGSM (i.e. one of the main "characters" in Pride) just confirmed
> 
> Now to find some good speakers from TUC and BMA.


You could try the new head of equality at the TUC. She was introduced at the conference I was at today, but I missed her name. Google it?


----------



## purenarcotic (Mar 9, 2016)

Some tit today again talking about a seven day NHS. My mum saw her GP the other Sunday. Perhaps her GP has missed the memo. How awkward.


----------



## Guineveretoo (Mar 10, 2016)

Lord Camomile said:


> Mike Jackson from LGSM (i.e. one of the main "characters" in Pride) just confirmed
> 
> Now to find some good speakers from TUC and BMA.


The TUC Head of Equality and Strategy is Alice Hood. Ahood@tuc.org.uk


----------



## Lord Camomile (Mar 10, 2016)

Guineveretoo said:


> You could try the new head of equality at the TUC. She was introduced at the conference I was at today, but I missed her name. Google it?





Guineveretoo said:


> The TUC Head of Equality and Strategy is Alice Hood. Ahood@tuc.org.uk


Cheers


----------



## Lord Camomile (Mar 10, 2016)

Hunt continues his campaign for Brass Neck 2016


----------



## treelover (Mar 10, 2016)

> HELP US!!!
> 
> I felt my heart sink today. And not because of political spin, or an unkind article in the news.
> 
> ...




Going by social media, (not just the above) morale is lowering, like with other strikes, there needs to be support groups, benefits, etc, all the energies on the left seem to going elsewhere.


----------



## Lord Camomile (Mar 10, 2016)

treelover said:


> Going by social media, (not just the above) morale is lowering, like with other strikes, there needs to be support groups, benefits, etc, all the energies on the left seem to going elsewhere.




I do appreciate how difficult it can be, but I fear this





> We haven't made a solid plan of action for tomorrow yet


can't help matters. I know from experience that if you don't give people a clear idea of where/when/what then numbers will drop.

It's something I'm pushing with my own union, to set out a clear plan of how we can support the BMA in the next two rounds of IA. We meant to do it this time, but didn't, and so none of us were there. There's power in a union, so they say, and that includes security in numbers. We're not all warriors, and need a little bit of the comfort/security of a crowd to help us along.


----------



## treelover (Mar 10, 2016)

The benefit gig network could mobilise.


----------



## teqniq (Mar 11, 2016)

found via here

The truth behind those negative junior doctors stories


----------



## treelover (Mar 18, 2016)

> *BMA to escalate junior doctors' strike action*
> 
> Junior doctors have agreed to ‘escalate’ their strikes around the contract imposition, which would include ‘considering all options’.
> 
> ...



They will need lots of support, hopefully people will put on benefit gigs, defend them on media, etc.


----------



## killer b (Mar 23, 2016)

full strike on the 26/27th April. 

_Dear all

Late last week I updated you on a decision JDC made to escalate future industrial action. I can now confirm the exact nature of that, namely full withdrawal of labour by junior doctors on the 26 and 27 April. This will be between 8am and 5pm on those two days and will replace the planned 48-hour emergency care only action. Other doctors and staff will continue to provide care during this time. 
The 48-hour emergency care only action due to start at 8am on Wednesday 6 April and end at 8am on Friday 8 April will go ahead as planned. During the 6 and 7 April we will get across to Government our desire not to escalate our action given how historic full withdrawal of labour would be. A consultant and specialist delivered emergency cover is unprecedented in the NHS. The Government has been blind and deaf to our concerns and their intransigence has left us with little choice. We must prevent the exodus of staff and goodwill in the NHS that is directly linked to setting the precedent of imposition.

Throughout this dispute we have always given the NHS the maximum notice possible to prepare for action. We deeply regret disruption that this inevitably does cause but continue to hear from doctors across England saying they want everything done to oppose imposition. That is why there is a phased approach to April’s action, to give Government every opportunity to avoid this.
When 98% of you voted for action we invited Government to talks via Acas as we have always wanted a negotiated settlement. Since talks broke down we have still left the door open for talks. However, the Government is flatly refusing to engage with junior doctors, has done nothing to halt industrial action and is wilfully ignoring the mounting chorus of concerns over its plans to impose coming from doctors, patients and senior NHS managers.

We know there is a crisis in the NHS – it is buckling and junior doctors want to focus on solving these deep-rooted problems. We are the backbone of the NHS that truly delivers world class safe care and are ready to step up to the challenges – if the Government doesn’t push us away.

Best wishes

Johann_


----------



## treelover (Mar 23, 2016)

Just seen this, wow, no messing about here.


----------



## Lord Camomile (Mar 23, 2016)

Right, so, how can other unions (from other industries) best support them? My branch has been frustratingly slow to mobilise, so I'm keen to make some suggestions myself.


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 23, 2016)

Sadly a lot of the other unions have woefully under represented their own members in the NHS as great chunks of the service were allowed into private contractors hands.
Either by stealth or outright threats workers from cleaners and maintenance staff through to medical staff have been coerced into working on dodgy contracts that become worthless as TUPE agreements time out.
All governments are culpable, none are blame free.
I am not seeing much evidence of support other than marches and petitions to be sadly honest.
The anti trade union laws cause the situation were if a union did offer to come out in support of an all out strike they would have all their assets seized.
Maintenance workers in the north west NHS are going on a work to rule in the near future, as they are losing about £3.5k a year due to contract changes I wish them luck too.

Electricians and plumbers work-to-rule at two north west NHS trusts over ‘losing £3,500-a-year’


----------



## Streathamite (Mar 23, 2016)

Lord Camomile said:


> Fair play to him for getting the point across.
> 
> I have been thinking recently about how frustrating it must be in parliament to not be able to just call someone a liar when they're lying.



There's an easy way round it. Cite the most authoritative credible person who has flatly contradicted the Minister in question - and invite them to call that person a liar, or ask 'who is telling the truth here, the rt hon gentleman/lady or Mr/Ms everybody-trusts-them?'


----------



## Streathamite (Mar 23, 2016)

To the best of my recollection, this is the first all-out, no-messing, no-exceptions Doctors' strike.
From people who are utterly dedicated to what they do.
That's some achievement.


----------



## Streathamite (Mar 23, 2016)

Lord Camomile said:


> Right, so, how can other unions (from other industries) best support them? My branch has been frustratingly slow to mobilise, so I'm keen to make some suggestions myself.


GMB  - Hospital Workers Strike 21 March
The GMB may have some ideas!...


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Mar 23, 2016)

Streathamite said:


> The GMB may have some ideas!...



Now that cunt Kenny has gone & Roache has taken over, it's looking better at least.


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 23, 2016)

Hats off to the junior doctors though, their attempt to resolve this dispute is again falling on deaf ears. I hope they emerge victorious without too much bad feeling from an increasingly apathetic general public.


----------



## treelover (Mar 26, 2016)

> *Tory mouthpiece The Sun launches another lying attack on junior doctors*
> 
> Tory mouthpiece The Sun launches another lying attack on junior doctors






> Junior doctors are described as militants and their union, the British Medical Association, as “hard-left”




The Sun attacks the Doctors, looks like the battle is now on


----------



## teqniq (Apr 4, 2016)

Junior doctors are taking Jeremy Hunt to court over 'toxic' contracts


----------



## existentialist (Apr 4, 2016)

teqniq said:


> Junior doctors are taking Jeremy Hunt to court over 'toxic' contracts


I'm intrigued: this latest appeal is crowdsourced - is crowdsourcing funding for this kind of thing meaning that legal actions are taking place that would not otherwise have been brought?


----------



## teqniq (Apr 4, 2016)

I don't know, sorry but at a guess it looks to be that way.


----------



## Guineveretoo (Apr 4, 2016)

existentialist said:


> I'm intrigued: this latest appeal is crowdsourced - is crowdsourcing funding for this kind of thing meaning that legal actions are taking place that would not otherwise have been brought?


Yeah. It is a legal challenge different from the BMA one, and the BMA lawyers wouldn't take this one because they were told there was little chance of success.


----------



## existentialist (Apr 4, 2016)

Guineveretoo said:


> Yeah. It is a legal challenge different from the BMA one, and the BMA lawyers wouldn't take this one because they were told there was little chance of success.


Excellent.


----------



## teqniq (Apr 6, 2016)

Patients Association backs junior doctors’ challenge to new contract imposition



> Advocacy group’s backing will come as a blow to the Health Secretary, Jeremy Hunt, who has positioned himself as a patients’ champion...



Suck it up Jeremy.


----------



## brogdale (Apr 6, 2016)

Fucker looks fucked...


----------



## Idris2002 (Apr 6, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Fucker looks fucked...



Keith Richards to Jeremy Hunt: "you all right mate? you don't look so good."


----------



## treelover (Apr 6, 2016)




----------



## treelover (Apr 6, 2016)

Times a changing?


----------



## DexterTCN (Apr 6, 2016)

This been done?  This is awesome.   Green Wing actors.


----------



## Lord Camomile (Apr 6, 2016)

It's at the hospital where they filmed the series


----------



## DexterTCN (Apr 6, 2016)

Lord Camomile said:


> It's at the hospital where they filmed the series


Hah!


----------



## brogdale (Apr 6, 2016)

DexterTCN said:


> This been done?  This is awesome.   Green Wing actors.
> 
> View attachment 85483


Interviewed well on London News as well.


----------



## DexterTCN (Apr 6, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Interviewed well on London News as well.


Wouldn't have a link for people in Scotland, would you?

Either way....still awesome.


----------



## brogdale (Apr 6, 2016)

DexterTCN said:


> Wouldn't have a link for people in Scotland, would you?
> 
> Either way....still awesome.


Sorry, no. But Mangan signed off by saying that when he recently spoke to NHS staff attending to the birth of his child, and asked them what they thought of Hunt/the dispute their responses were universally not appropriate for broadcast!


----------



## Treacle Toes (Apr 7, 2016)




----------



## treelover (Apr 7, 2016)

Unsubtle, but very very good.


----------



## teqniq (Apr 10, 2016)




----------



## treelover (Apr 10, 2016)

Middle England on the march.​


----------



## teqniq (Apr 13, 2016)

Heh









> Junior doctors have begun what they say will be a permanent protest outside the Department of Health, to call for Jeremy Hunt to re-open talks and avert unprecedented strike action due to take place at end of the month.
> 
> Two medics from the grassroots junior doctor campaign began the protest this morning by requesting a meeting with the Health Secretary at the DoH building in Whitehall....



Junior doctors begin permanent protest outside Department of Health


----------



## stethoscope (Apr 17, 2016)

Possibly candidate for the ruthlessly incompetent thread too 

Pressure mounts on Jeremy Hunt over handling of junior doctors' dispute



			
				Guardian said:
			
		

> Jeremy Hunt is under mounting pressure over his handling of the junior doctors’ dispute after he unexpectedly abandoned his repeated threat to impose a new contract – a move that has led to four strikes by doctors so far.
> 
> Hunt’s change of tack, prompted by a high court challenge which starts on Monday, may mean the health secretary has misled parliament over the contract imposition because he has spoken of the threat repeatedly in front of MPs in the House of Commons.
> 
> ...


----------



## Lord Camomile (Apr 17, 2016)

So what's the difference between "imposing" and "introducing"? Is it basically that they can't make current JDs sign the new contract but can present it to new ones?


----------



## brogdale (Apr 17, 2016)

Lord Camomile said:


> So what's the difference between "imposing" and "introducing"? Is it basically that they can't make current JDs sign the new contract but can present it to new ones?


It's just bollux, either way. A contract only exists if the two parties agree it.


----------



## 8ball (Apr 17, 2016)

brogdale said:


> It's just bollux, either way. A contract only exists if the two parties agree it.



What you say has resonance, but I fear the ship called "things that make sense" has already sailed to a distant land.

I have a thing I am being pressured to sign at work which allows various companies and governmental entities in other countries to access information about me.  It is considered 'voluntary' at least in terms of how it is worded, and I have missed the 'deadline' for signing.  Pressure is being applied gently at this point, but it is going to ramp up during the coming week.  Where I work, people sign all manner of things that they do not understand (this thing does not seem particularly harmful, but if they are going to call it 'voluntary', then I am going to make them work to get my signature).

It's just how things work in our post-democratic utopia.


----------



## brogdale (Apr 17, 2016)

8ball said:


> What you say has resonance, but I fear the ship called "things that make sense" has already sailed to a distant land.
> 
> I have a thing I am being pressured to sign at work which allows various companies and governmental entities in other countries to access information about me.  It is considered 'voluntary' at least in terms of how it is worded, and I have missed the 'deadline' for signing.  Pressure is being applied gently at this point, but it is going to ramp up during the coming week.  Where I work, people sign all manner of things that they do not understand (this thing does not seem particularly harmful, but if they are going to call it 'voluntary', then I am going to make them work to get my signature).
> 
> It's just how things work in our post-democratic utopia.


Yes, resist if you can.
I myself managed not to cooperate with all manner of guff, including finger-print entry pass.


----------



## 8ball (Apr 17, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Yes, resist if you can.
> I myself managed not to cooperate with all manner of guff, including finger-print entry pass.



Well done on the biometrics - that would be an uphill struggle at my place.  I've been strongarmed into signing things that don't even make grammatical, never mind logical sense.  Unfortunately I need the job.


----------



## Lord Camomile (Apr 17, 2016)

I'm pretty sure I still haven't signed the contract for my current job, which I got four years ago...


----------



## 8ball (Apr 17, 2016)

Lord Camomile said:


> I'm pretty sure I still haven't signed the contract for my current job, which I got four years ago...



I was never even presented with a contract for my current job.  I have a copy of a contract for a job I started 16 years ago and moved on from more than a decade ago.   
I'm never sure how it works with job contracts.


----------



## Lord Camomile (Apr 17, 2016)

Hurrah for HR!


----------



## 8ball (Apr 17, 2016)

Lord Camomile said:


> Hurrah for HR!



Yeah, I asked them for a copy of my contract a couple of months back and got a copy of the one from March 2000...


----------



## Guineveretoo (Apr 17, 2016)

brogdale said:


> It's just bollux, either way. A contract only exists if the two parties agree it.


That's true, but Junior Doctors do not have permanent contracts because they are still in training, and will move to another post at some time in the near future, as part of that training. 

When they do, they will be told that the job offer is on the basis of the new contract. 

Of course they can refuse but, if they do, they have no job, and there has not been a dismissal or even a resignation, so no employment rights. 

Lots of doctors have said that they will walk rather than sign the new contract but, in the event, making yourself unemployed and with no benefits because you've walked away might not be too attractive. 

Bastard Tories. 

That's why it's so important that we keep supporting them and that they win this fight.


----------



## 8115 (Apr 17, 2016)

I think the BMA may have to accept the contract, not just individual doctors.


----------



## Guineveretoo (Apr 17, 2016)

8115 said:


> I think the BMA may have to accept the contract, not just individual doctors.


Unfortunately, that's not true, either. 

That's what is meant when people refer to the contract being "imposed". The government has failed to reach an agreement with the BMA so they have decided that they will change the contract anyway. It's been published and will come in from August for all junior doctors who start a new job after that.


----------



## 8115 (Apr 17, 2016)

Guineveretoo said:


> Unfortunately, that's not true, either.
> 
> That's what is meant when people refer to the contract being "imposed". The government has failed to reach an agreement with the BMA so they have decided that they will change the contract anyway. It's been published and will come in from August for all junior doctors who start a new job after that.


That's what they call the "nucleur" option? I thought that Hunt had not yet decided to go for imposition?

Eta ignore me, I've just got the distinction between imposing and introducing.


----------



## Guineveretoo (Apr 18, 2016)

8115 said:


> That's what they call the "nucleur" option? I thought that Hunt had not yet decided to go for imposition?
> 
> Eta ignore me, I've just got the distinction between imposing and introducing.



Hunt is saying that he is not "imposing" because they are not changing existing contracts, simply introducing new ones. 

So, technically, he is right. 

However, every junior doctor will be on a new contract within the next 12 months. And it will not be one that has been negotiated. 

Bastard Tories.


----------



## teqniq (Apr 19, 2016)

Jeremy Hunt has rejected the BMA's offer to cancel the junior doctors' strike


----------



## Sprocket. (Apr 19, 2016)

teqniq said:


> Jeremy Hunt has rejected the BMA's offer to cancel the junior doctors' strike



Typical and not surprised.
Also nice of the Independent to sneak an advert to miss the NHS waiting lists with the offer of a private health care provider in the piece!


----------



## teqniq (Apr 19, 2016)

Ha, didn't see that, but I am using an adblocker.


----------



## chainsawjob (Apr 21, 2016)

Simple and effective summing up:


----------



## treelover (Apr 21, 2016)

> UK junior doctors may follow April strikes with indefinite walkout



Wow, just can't see this happening.


----------



## Celyn (Apr 22, 2016)

I'm wondering why the headline writers refer to "UK junior doctors" when really it's a matter of Junior doctors in England.  

I suppose a headline saying "Junior doctors in England, unlike those in other parts of the U.K., are forced to resort to strike action because their Health Secretary, Jeremy Hunt, is a right bastard who wants to impose an unfair and horrible contract" might be a bit unwieldy, but it might help indicate that the world CAN go on without that damned contract, and that the blame lies with Jeremy Hunt.


----------



## Guineveretoo (Apr 22, 2016)

It feels like support for the junior doctors is shrivelling away, particularly now that it impacts directly on the senior doctors who are going to have to staff A&E and deal with emergencies! 

There is the question as to whether the consultants who will be working in A&E will be good enough when, presumably, some of them have not worked there for decades. 

I reckon the press will be hunting around for someone to blame the death of their loved one on the strike, so that they can plaster it all over the place. Firstly, we have to hope that no-one dies as a result of the strike and, secondly, we have to hope that the press don't pick up on someone who was going to die anyway, and blame that on the strike


----------



## Celyn (Apr 22, 2016)

That was not so much a "like" as an "oh woe, I agree".


----------



## 8115 (Apr 22, 2016)

Guineveretoo said:


> It feels like support for the junior doctors is shrivelling away, particularly now that it impacts directly on the senior doctors who are going to have to staff A&E and deal with emergencies!
> 
> There is the question as to whether the consultants who will be working in A&E will be good enough when, presumably, some of them have not worked there for decades.
> 
> I reckon the press will be hunting around for someone to blame the death of their loved one on the strike, so that they can plaster it all over the place. Firstly, we have to hope that no-one dies as a result of the strike and, secondly, we have to hope that the press don't pick up on someone who was going to die anyway, and blame that on the strike


I think the people working will be A and E consultants. I think each area, ie oncology, orthopaedics, a and e, obstetrics, has junior doctors and consultants.

Just a factual matter.


----------



## killer b (Apr 22, 2016)

Guineveretoo said:


> It feels like support for the junior doctors is shrivelling away, particularly now that it impacts directly on the senior doctors who are going to have to staff A&E and deal with emergencies!


What makes you think this?


----------



## killer b (Apr 22, 2016)

More to the point, who's support do they need? What bad things will happen if they lose public support? They're involved in an industrial dispute, not a popularity contest.


----------



## Guineveretoo (Apr 22, 2016)

8115 said:


> I think the people working will be A and E consultants. I think each area, ie oncology, orthopaedics, a and e, obstetrics, has junior doctors and consultants.
> 
> Just a factual matter.


Yes, but there are not enough consultants in A&E to cover 48 hours, and this covers several shifts, so consultants from other areas will need to be roped in.


----------



## Guineveretoo (Apr 22, 2016)

killer b said:


> What makes you think this?


Things that I have heard people saying, who supported them up to now. Including some junior doctors


----------



## Guineveretoo (Apr 22, 2016)

killer b said:


> More to the point, who's support do they need? What bad things will happen if they lose public support? They're involved in an industrial dispute, not a popularity contest.


They need the support of their members, of other unions, of the public and of the press, otherwise, there is no pressure on the Government to do anything to end this dispute, and it will just be left to wither on the vine.


----------



## 8115 (Apr 22, 2016)

Guineveretoo said:


> Yes, but there are not enough consultants in A&E to cover 48 hours, and this covers several shifts, so consultants from other areas will need to be roped in.


I'm not sure this is correct.  

Eta - maybe it is, I don't know.


----------



## killer b (Apr 22, 2016)

They need the support of their members, that's all.


----------



## killer b (Apr 22, 2016)

But either way, they do enjoy wide support, from the public and from other unions. Fuck the press, they can all die in a ditch.


----------



## Guineveretoo (Apr 22, 2016)

8115 said:


> I'm not sure this is correct.


Really? It is my understanding that there is usually one consultant in overall charge of A&E and then lots of "junior doctors" (including senior registrars) who are in charge of different aspects of it, and then lots more "junior doctors" who work to them. 

You think there is usually more than one consultant working in A&E at any one time?


----------



## Guineveretoo (Apr 22, 2016)

killer b said:


> They need the support of their members, that's all.


Well, I don't agree with that, for the reasons I gave but, even if I did, the fact is that some of the members are no longer supporting the strike, and we can only hope that this doesn't impact on it. 

Also, support from outside really helps the junior doctors themselves to stay on side, as it were.


----------



## Guineveretoo (Apr 22, 2016)

killer b said:


> But either way, they do enjoy wide support, from the public and from other unions. Fuck the press, they can all die in a ditch.


I hope you are right, but I am seeing a different picture. 

And I am not looking at the press!


----------



## killer b (Apr 22, 2016)

There doesn't seem to be any polling more recent than February that I can find, but IIRC from the last one I saw support falls from around 75% for emergency care only to around 50% for all out, and I know a lot of drs are unsure about all out stoppages because they don't want people to die - so it's not surprising that you're seeing a drop in support. I'm still unclear what more public support would achieve - industrial disputes are often very unpopular. The tube drivers would be working 80 hour weeks for minimum wage if they gave a fuck about public support.


----------



## kropotkin (Apr 22, 2016)

Guineveretoo said:


> Yes, but there are not enough consultants in A&E to cover 48 hours, and this covers several shifts, so consultants from other areas will need to be roped in.


It's not 48 hours,  it's 18 hours. We are striking 8-5 two days in a row


----------



## kropotkin (Apr 22, 2016)

I get the pleasure of running my hospital at night all next week (the medical service anyway) : so I get the hospital back each of those two days post strike. 

I'm expecting the take (people referred in from ED) to be OK as everyone will have been seen by consultants straight away which is much more efficient than normal practice. Less will be referred in by ED as they will have senior decision makers being able to send more home. And then on the other side once people are referred in by ED or Gps they will be seen by Acute medical consultants,  which will be much more streamlined. 

The sick people on the wards will be where the risk lies,  I feel.


----------



## Guineveretoo (Apr 22, 2016)

kropotkin said:


> It's not 48 hours,  it's 18 hours. We are striking 8-5 two days in a row


Oh yes, so it is. My bad - I missed that.


----------



## Guineveretoo (Apr 22, 2016)

kropotkin said:


> I get the pleasure of running my hospital at night all next week (the medical service anyway) : so I get the hospital back each of those two days post strike.
> 
> I'm expecting the take (people referred in from ED) to be OK as everyone will have been seen by consultants straight away which is much more efficient than normal practice. Less will be referred in by ED as they will have senior decision makers being able to send more home. And then on the other side once people are referred in by ED or Gps they will be seen by Acute medical consultants,  which will be much more streamlined.
> 
> The sick people on the wards will be where the risk lies,  I feel.


Do you get any sense of support for the action falling away?  What can we do to keep support going?


----------



## treelover (Apr 22, 2016)

'Lukewarm' support from Benn on A/Q, '"the shadow cabinet will not be on the picket line on Tuesday"

The hands up' vote didn't go well either in removal of emergency care option,

the JD's have a big fight on their hands.


----------



## kropotkin (Apr 22, 2016)

No,  not really. Everyone I speak to is in support (consultants,  nurses,  patients). The press isn't,  but when has it supported strike action?


----------



## killer b (Apr 22, 2016)

treelover said:


> the JD's have a big fight on their hands.


They do. They always did. Lukewarm support from Hilary Benn is meaningless either way.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Apr 22, 2016)

treelover said:


> 'Lukewarm' support from Benn on A/Q, '"the shadow cabainet will not be on the picket line on Tuesday"
> 
> The hands up' vote didn't go well either in removal of emergency care option,
> 
> the JD's have a big fight on their hands.


Any Questions doesn't mean anything politically. And Benn is a twat.


----------



## J Ed (Apr 22, 2016)

Benn is a total cunt, he has BUPA so he doesn't give a shit either way how the rest of us or the Junior Docs suffer. I bet a good number of decent Labour people will be on the picket line


----------



## agricola (Apr 25, 2016)

Anyone just see that doctor (I didn't catch her full name) being interviewed by Clive Myrie on BBC News?   The demolition of Hunt's policy was so thorough they are probably already on the phone to complain about BBC bias.


----------



## two sheds (Apr 25, 2016)

E-mailed from NHA Party: 



> This week, on Tuesday and Wednesday, the junior doctors will hold their first ever all out strike in the history of the NHS.
> 
> I and my fellow consultants across the country, along with staff at all levels, will be providing emergency cover to ensure that anyone in hospital, or coming to hospital in an emergency, will be properly cared for.
> 
> ...


----------



## treelover (Apr 26, 2016)

> *Gerhard Lohmann-Bond, 62: ‘I am happy to put my life on hold to support them’*
> 
> Four days ago I got a letter from my consultant saying that they had found a lesion on my kidney and I have had blood tests done as a matter of urgency. This is potentially a very threatening condition and in normal circumstances I would get a scan done post-haste. However, I don’t expect anything to happen while the junior doctors are out on strike. If the strike is extended then I don’t know what will happen.
> 
> ...



Pretty amazing this.


----------



## Lord Camomile (Apr 26, 2016)

Meanwhile, Piers Morgan is talking to a pillow

It's a 28 second clip and I couldn't bring myself to listen to it all.


----------



## nino_savatte (Apr 26, 2016)

Why is he waiting? Go now.
Jeremy Hunt just admitted the junior doctors contract may be his last 'big job' in politics


----------



## treelover (Apr 26, 2016)

Now.


----------



## treelover (Apr 26, 2016)

78% of junior doctors did not report for work - NHS England

Junior doctors strike:  Jeremy Corbyn joins protest march - live


----------



## treelover (Apr 26, 2016)




----------



## binka (Apr 26, 2016)

nino_savatte said:


> Why is he waiting? Go now.
> Jeremy Hunt just admitted the junior doctors contract may be his last 'big job' in politics


Yeah out of Westminster and straight into the boardroom of any number of private healthcare companies circling the NHS like vultures


----------



## DJWrongspeed (Apr 27, 2016)

A&E's were quiet yesterday, doesn't this tell you something ?

Why not tell the public not visit A&E during the day on tuesdays or thursdays in future. When there was a winter crisis recently there was a similar public announcement about only going to A&E in an emergency (that's what it's there for?) that had similar results to the strike.

A&E is an expensive form of treatment.


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Apr 27, 2016)

DJWrongspeed said:


> A&E's were quiet yesterday, doesn't this tell you something ?
> 
> Why not tell the public not visit A&E during the day on tuesdays or thursdays in future. When there was a winter crisis recently there was a similar public announcement about only going to A&E in an emergency (that's what it's there for?) that had similar results to the strike.
> 
> A&E is an expensive form of treatment.



Yeah people do misuse A&E but the strike isn't really about junior doctors in emergency care so not quite sure what your point is?


----------



## Lord Camomile (Apr 27, 2016)

Worthy of a repeat viewing


----------



## The Octagon (Apr 27, 2016)

Dennis Skinner is having a good time in the Commons recently -

Dennis Skinner just told Jeremy Hunt to 'wipe that smirk off his face'


----------



## DJWrongspeed (Apr 27, 2016)

Doctor Carrot said:


> Yeah people do misuse A&E but the strike isn't really about junior doctors in emergency care so not quite sure what your point is?



Just highlighting the unexpected consequences.  I support the Drs.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 27, 2016)

nino_savatte said:


> Why is he waiting? Go now.
> Jeremy Hunt just admitted the junior doctors contract may be his last 'big job' in politics



Surely his whole purpose in this job was to swing the axe and then fuck off? It's not like he's a talented politician, he's just a fall guy. I'm sure this was explained to him when he was given the job and I'm sure he has been guaranteed a lucrative private sector career that will invove zero actual work so I'm sure he's fine with it.


----------



## Guineveretoo (Apr 27, 2016)

Had a great time at the Lewisham Hospital picket line. First thing that happened is some chap came over to me, grabbed my arm, and started telling me, in an American accent, about his friend Woody Guthrie, and then he started singing to me. This happened because I am wearing a t-shirt which says "This is what a trade unionist looks like". 

Then I noticed a gathering crowd so I took a photo of the person they were listening to, even though I couldn't hear what he was saying. I assumed he was going to be a trade union activist or politician. Turns out to be a doctor who was in the final of the Great British Bake Off last year. He was eating cakes made by the junior doctors


----------



## nino_savatte (Apr 27, 2016)

SpookyFrank said:


> It's not like he's a talented politician,


That goes without saying. He's a PR man and not a very good one.


----------



## Saffy (Apr 27, 2016)

Ohh Dr. Tamal from Bake-off is lovely. 
I've spent all morning on Facebook putting people right over the junior doctor strike.
Think I'm going to have to have a cull again tonight.


----------



## Guineveretoo (Apr 27, 2016)

Saffy said:


> Ohh Dr. Tamal from Bake-off is lovely.
> I've spent all morning on Facebook putting people right over the junior doctor strike.
> Think I'm going to have to have a cull again tonight.


Yeah - I think you have got the wrong facebook friends 

I have not had to do that at all. I suppose there are some who are just keeping quiet, because they know what I am like, but everyone else is being supportive. 

in fact, it was fantastic on the Lewisham picket line - there was so much support being shown and people hooting as they drove past.


----------



## Saffy (Apr 27, 2016)

Yes, it's times like these that you really get to know people's opinions and values.
Im a bit disappointed with some people, I really got the measure of them wrong.


----------



## kingfisher (Apr 27, 2016)

Junior doctors camp outside DH to demand talks with Jeremy Hunt | GPonline

Warning Tout : Dr Dagan Lonsdale yesterday or the day before, went to the door of the department of health (who i gathered were his adversarys) and requested the police to be called, because "he was going to sleep now" for the multitude of other people "just trying to go to sleep" in the borough of westminstr, of which i have been amongst the number this strook some notes of cognitive dissonance - how out of touch was this guy? - he admitted that not only was this is first camped/imdefinite protest he had never actually been on a protest at all, and was non forthcoming on his views on the "wider struggle" 
I surmise that dr DAGAN LONSDALE (who unaware of the HPlovecraft mytosy monster, and therefore didnt appreciate that riff) - is in the thrall of the sercret services, its a daft stunt, and the fact that the police didnt even turn up, but there was a fella with a TENT pitched on the north side of whitehall (hows that allowed - come on) - that DID contribute to the "talkin to tramps about 9/11" podcast. 
i was trying to get sectioned all day because i was cold - i was advise anyone that does mad political things sometimes, that they like sectioning to do th9ose mad poliktical things while this strike is on.


----------



## existentialist (Apr 27, 2016)

SpookyFrank said:


> Surely his whole purpose in this job was to swing the axe and then fuck off? It's not like he's a talented politician, he's just a fall guy. I'm sure this was explained to him when he was given the job and I'm sure he has been guaranteed a lucrative private sector career that will invove zero actual work so I'm sure he's fine with it.


I know you can't judge someone too much by brief TV appearances, but I agree - there seems to be nothing about the Chuntster that signals competence or any kind of significant ability. He's just a puppet, put there to do what he is told, take a faceful of shit at some stage in the proceedings, and get his arse kicked onto a couple of non-executive directorships. He's a cipher. I just really, really hope that he fancies himself as more than just a cipher, and that he has a horrible time realising the truth.


----------



## Lord Camomile (Apr 28, 2016)

That last sentence pretty much sums up this whole exercise.

(Nicked off Twitter, so going on faith that this is all true..  )


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Apr 28, 2016)

Charterhouse school, of which Hunt is an old boy has a medical centre, as do most schools. That school is so lacking in worthy alumni and either so lacking in sense of propriety or trolling the planet that their sanatorium is called 'The Hunt Medical Centre'


----------



## Lorca (Apr 29, 2016)

Punt Hunt


----------



## DotCommunist (May 5, 2016)

so the twats in power have set aside 5 days to talk. I'm not sure if this counts as blinking or just a face saving exercise so they can say they tried when they force the contracts through later. Beeb website has a straw poll and the support is just over double the oppose. Dunno how representative of the real world that is


----------



## teqniq (May 5, 2016)

Government 'pauses' imposition of new junior doctors' contracts


----------



## kingfisher (May 5, 2016)




----------



## existentialist (May 5, 2016)

teqniq said:


> Government 'pauses' imposition of new junior doctors' contracts


The beginning of a climbdown? Or more gamesmanship?


----------



## DotCommunist (May 5, 2016)

existentialist said:


> The beginning of a climbdown? Or more gamesmanship?


i fear its so they can have the fig leaf of 'well we did try one last chat' but the actual negotiations will be more like ben kingsley talking to ray winston. Not actual negotiation in any meaningful way


----------



## existentialist (May 5, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> i fear its so they can have the fig leaf of 'well we did try one last chat' but the actual negotiations will be more like ben kingsley talking to ray winston. Not actual negotiation in any meaningful way


I think they're a bit fucked, then. Because I really can't see the doctors backing down in any meaningful way.


----------



## DotCommunist (May 5, 2016)

existentialist said:


> I think they're a bit fucked, then. Because I really can't see the doctors backing down in any meaningful way.


well they haven't made any mention of what they are bringing to the table to negotiate with have they? So its just going to be a repeat of the demanded imposition of contracts. So yeah, fig leaf of an exercise


----------



## existentialist (May 5, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> well they haven't made any mention of what they are bringing to the table to negotiate with have they? So its just going to be a repeat of the demanded imposition of contracts. So yeah, fig leaf of an exercise


I still think the government believes it can mobilise public support against the doctors.


----------



## DotCommunist (May 5, 2016)

existentialist said:


> I still think the government believes it can mobilise public support against the doctors.


doesn't seem to be working  like they've switched into ignore mode rather than attack mode after seeing the public support etc. They picked a fight they can win*, but not one they want to be seen winning publically. 

*not to be fatalist or anything but you know how governments steamroll over pub sec unions with impunity


----------



## killer b (May 18, 2016)

Deal just announced!


----------



## Lord Camomile (May 18, 2016)

No details yet


> A deal has been agreed in the long-running dispute over a new junior doctors' contract in England.
> 
> Government negotiators and the British Medical Association leadership have reached an agreement after eight days of talks at conciliation service Acas.
> 
> The offer will now be put to a referendum of BMA members.


----------



## killer b (May 18, 2016)

acas statement here: http://www.acas.org.uk/index.aspx?articleid=5737


----------



## brogdale (May 18, 2016)

Has Hunt discovered one limit of neoliberalism?


----------



## killer b (May 18, 2016)

Initial response from doctors on the fb campaign forum is not at all positive...


----------



## brogdale (May 18, 2016)

killer b said:


> Initial response from doctors on the fb campaign forum is not at all positive...


Well ACAS never gives you all you want.


----------



## gawkrodger (May 18, 2016)

from my glances it doesn't look positive. Just spoken to a doctor I know (who isn't particularly 'political' but a fierce defender of the NHS) and her exact words were

'It's so disappointing. They have just given in.'


----------



## kingfisher (May 18, 2016)

well, when people offered their solidarity to the "sleepout" "timetotalk" some of these docs - - -- phoned-the-fucking-police- 


bizzare

i support the NHS i thank them for my medication, but was struck (off?) by the strangeness of this response.
only refers to dagon lonsdale - 
i encourage the hardcore anti-police anarchists to tlisten to this.
if they like


----------



## existentialist (May 19, 2016)

kingfisher said:


> well, when people offered their solidarity to the "sleepout" "timetotalk" some of these docs - - -- phoned-the-fucking-police-
> 
> 
> bizzare
> ...



Yeah. Maybe they can chuck some sanitary products in a pond.


----------



## Cid (May 19, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Charterhouse school, of which Hunt is an old boy has a medical centre, as do most schools. That school is so lacking in worthy alumni and either so lacking in sense of propriety or trolling the planet that their sanatorium is called 'The Hunt Medical Centre'



Not after Jeremy...


----------



## two sheds (May 19, 2016)

Good luck to the doctors hope they got something out of it. I couldn't see the strike being effective, though, Cameron and Hunt couldn't give a shit whether people get treated on NHS or not. Faster it dies the faster their fellow MPs and sponsors will get the pickings.


----------



## Lorca (May 20, 2016)




----------



## Ming (May 25, 2016)

Lorca said:


>



I just watched the CH4 footage on YouTube and thought 'fuck me he looks nervous'  lol!


----------



## editor (Jun 6, 2016)

Photos from Saturday's march












Bursary or Bust – march by student nurses through central London, Sat 4th June


----------



## Whagwan (Jul 5, 2016)

Junior Docs have rejected the latest offer...

Junior doctors reject contract offer


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 5, 2016)

Whagwan said:


> Junior Docs have rejected the latest offer...
> 
> Junior doctors reject contract offer


so as per thread title...


----------



## Lord Camomile (Jul 5, 2016)

> They rejected the deal recommended by the BMA by a margin of 58% to 42%. *The chairman of the BMA junior doctors’ committee, Johann Malawana, resigned after the result was announced.*


Clearly the done thing, these days.


----------



## Guineveretoo (Jul 5, 2016)

I wonder what will happen now. Does the BMA have the stomach for a continued fight, particularly in view of the EU referendum result, but also because the BMA recommended the proposals to their membership, presumably as the best they could achieve. 

Also, I understand that the NHS has already been rolling out these contracts, which calls in to question the whole validity of these negotiations, and whether the government cared about what the BMA said. 

Bastards. (the government, not the junior doctors).

Things are going to get even worse for junior doctors if we leave the EU - the government strongly objected to the Working Time Regulations applying to doctors, and fought its implementation all the way.


----------



## killer b (Jul 5, 2016)

Lord Camomile said:


> Clearly the done thing, these days.


He always said he'd go, if they voted against the offer - reckoned it was the best he was able to do.


----------



## existentialist (Jul 5, 2016)

The most important thing that will happen will happen quietly, out of the public gaze, and quietly. In fact, it won't be something happening, so much as something not happening.

Because the effect of this assault on this profession will be to discourage people from joining it. Or, if they join it, from working for the NHS or even in the UK. As the Guardian article mentions, this action by Hunt has sowed great mistrust amongst doctors (and, no doubt, other health professionals), and will have made even fewer people consider being a medic as a good career choice.

Of course, Hunt and Co don't need to worry about this, because by the time the full impact of a doctor shortage hits, in 5-10 years time, he'll be sitting on a few non-executive directorships, and the health service will be no more than a distant memory to him...although it doubtless won't prevent his successors from sneering at whatever governmental action is being taken to square that particular service.

I can only hope that Malawana's departure paves the way for a successor who is prepared to continue the fight: ultimately, the doctors hold the whip hand here, and if they chose to, could push back very firmly against the government.


----------



## Lord Camomile (Jul 5, 2016)

Is there any indication as to the specific reasons the contract was rejected?


----------



## Guineveretoo (Jul 5, 2016)

existentialist said:


> The most important thing that will happen will happen quietly, out of the public gaze, and quietly. In fact, it won't be something happening, so much as something not happening.
> 
> Because the effect of this assault on this profession will be to discourage people from joining it. Or, if they join it, from working for the NHS or even in the UK. As the Guardian article mentions, this action by Hunt has sowed great mistrust amongst doctors (and, no doubt, other health professionals), and will have made even fewer people consider being a medic as a good career choice.
> 
> ...


There is already an issue about people not joining the profession, and people leaving it early and/or emigrating because they are so pissed off with how badly treated they are in the UK. 

Other health professionals are watching this keenly, because everyone knows that it is their turn next/soon.

However, I don't see how the junior doctors do have the whip hand here, because it is really easy for the government to impose this new contract on juniors. The same is not true of the consultants' contract negotiations, but juniors tend to move jobs frequently, in order to continue their training and prepare them to become a consultant.

I understand that some Trusts are already offering the new contract.


----------



## killer b (Jul 5, 2016)

Mainly 'cause it was shit, I think.


----------



## Guineveretoo (Jul 5, 2016)

killer b said:


> Mainly 'cause it was shit, I think.


Yeah, presumably because they will be paid less for working more hours. 

I would love to have been a fly on the wall whilst the BMA was trying to sell the deal to its members!


----------



## existentialist (Jul 5, 2016)

Guineveretoo said:


> There is already an issue about people not joining the profession, and people leaving it early and/or emigrating because they are so pissed off with how badly treated they are in the UK.
> 
> Other health professionals are watching this keenly, because everyone knows that it is their turn next/soon.
> 
> ...


The government can impose the contract, yes, but I suspect that junior doctors are amongst the more mobile of the public sector employees this government appears to have declared war on (along with all the other social groups).

They'll vote with their feet - which, as you point out, they have already started doing.


----------



## Lord Camomile (Jul 6, 2016)

Hunt imposes the contract, hides it under the Chilcot report



> The junior doctor contract will be imposed on medics in England, following the profession's rejection of the terms, ministers have confirmed.
> 
> The decision was widely expected, after British Medical Association members voted 58% to 42% against accepting the deal, agreed by government and union negotiators in May.
> 
> ...


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jul 6, 2016)

Lord Camomile said:


> Hunt imposes the contract, hides it under the Chilcot report



It's okay, he gave them 45 minutes warning


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jul 6, 2016)

ALL OUT!!


----------



## Celyn (Jul 7, 2016)

Lord Camomile said:


> Hunt imposes the contract, hides it under the Chilcot report



Aha.  I did wonder yesterday what other bad things would be done while everyone was busy discussing Chilcot.


----------



## Ted Striker (Jul 7, 2016)

Lord Camomile said:


> Hunt imposes the contract, hides it under the Chilcot report



Wtf?! - they're forcing through the whole thing that's been the subject of all these strikes/negotiations - and doing it on Chilcot Day?!


----------



## existentialist (Jul 7, 2016)

Ted Striker said:


> Wtf?! - they're forcing through the whole thing that's been the subject of all these strikes/negotiations - and doing it on Chilcot Day?!


Brazen, isn't it?


----------



## brogdale (Jul 7, 2016)

existentialist said:


> Brazen, isn't it?


Bet there was a big gold star in (h)unt's diary for 6/7/16.


----------



## Lord Camomile (Sep 1, 2016)

And we're back.


> The week of strikes by junior doctors this month will be followed by three more five-day walkouts in October, November and December in England.
> 
> The announcement by the British Medical Association comes only a day after it said there would be five days of all-out stoppages from 12 September.


----------



## Lord Camomile (Sep 1, 2016)




----------



## redsquirrel (Sep 1, 2016)

Excellent, and a proper five day strike.


----------



## William of Walworth (Sep 1, 2016)

This morning at about 6:40 am, on the almost always shite BBC Breakfast, Ben Thompson** decided to treat the excellent BMA Junior Doctors leader as if she was 'holding the country to ransom' (R, TM).

He interrogated her utterly aggressively, repeatedly 'demanding' that she justify putting patients lives at risk. And he kept interrupting her, too. Her calm point, also repeated, that the Government could stop the strike immediately was ignored.

**I mixed him up with the evangelical Christian Dan Walker, also annoying/useless on BBC Breakfast. And I don't care


----------



## Dogsauce (Sep 2, 2016)

The lickspittle BBC are running with "Medical Leaders Critisise Strikes Plan" and quote a few think-tanks that are against the strike, without explaining who they are or what their agendas are. Piss poor.


----------



## The Octagon (Sep 2, 2016)

Dogsauce said:


> The lickspittle BBC are running with "Medical Leaders Critisise Strikes Plan" and quote a few think-tanks that are against the strike, without explaining who they are or what their agendas are. Piss poor.



I saw that, and this is the 3rd or 4th sentence - 



> The Academy of Medical Royal Colleges said it was "disappointed" and the proposed strikes were disproportionate.
> 
> The British Medical Association said it was "absolutely behind" the action.



No agenda to that headline, nosireebob.


----------



## gosub (Sep 2, 2016)

Blazing row with tory councillor last night.  Do they email them a scrip of lines to take ...militant doctors holding the country to ransom...(58% of junior Doctors are militant  really?)...need to move to a 7 day a week NHS ( when my Brothers wife nearly died before the 1st strike it was the junior doctor that kept her alive all weekend before the scans and surgeons turned up Monday morning)..and then the fucker gloated about his private healthcare


The Opposition seriously needs to sort it shit out and start opposing.


The whole thing is not going to end well, May's Cabinet would have been a perfect non  face-losing opportunity to get rid of Hunt, as is NHS gets further trashed and the the tries continue unopposed


----------



## Lord Camomile (Sep 2, 2016)

gosub said:


> The whole thing is not going to end well, May's Cabinet would have been a perfect non  face-losing opportunity to get rid of Hunt, as is NHS gets further trashed and the the tries continue unopposed


I've been wondering about this (as someone who has no insight whatsoever): would things have been markedly different if someone had replaced Hunt? This is the party's agenda, not some personal crusade of Hunt's, isn't it?


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 2, 2016)

Lord Camomile said:


> I've been wondering about this (as someone who has no insight whatsoever): would things have been markedly different if someone had replaced Hunt? This is the party's agenda, not some personal crusade of Hunt's, isn't it?


its not just Hunt's crusade no. Remember the health and social care act 2012? Lansly not hunt. It's a pretty naked running down of the service so it can eventually be privatised. They want health precarity as well as housing precarity for the w/c. Keeps us under heel. Plus they want the land, they want the buildings and they want the profits to be made milking working people. They look at the US and they see the profits made. Its obscene how obvious this is. Same pattern, every time.


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 2, 2016)

The Octagon said:


> I saw that, and this is the 3rd or 4th sentence -
> 
> 
> 
> No agenda to that headline, nosireebob.



I reluctantly agree.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 5, 2016)

Suspended.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 5, 2016)

Ball in Hunt's court.


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 5, 2016)

whats the betting he will solidly ignore the negotiating space and just keep lying through his teeth the chinless twat


----------



## killer b (Sep 5, 2016)

He was due to make some kind of announcement at 4.30 anyway I think.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 5, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> whats the betting he will solidly ignore the negotiating space and just keep lying through his teeth the chinless twat


Almost certainly, but it will be at some political cost...particularly with the Oct strike dates already set.


----------



## existentialist (Sep 5, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> whats the betting he will solidly ignore the negotiating space and just keep lying through his teeth the chinless twat


That's exactly what he'll do. Which is why I think the statement is quite good - if Hunt doesn't do something substantive to acknowledge it, he is wide open to accusations of operating in bad faith. Time will tell as to whether that's a problem or not to him.


----------



## treelover (Sep 5, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Suspended.




Shrewd and balanced Statement.


----------



## two sheds (Sep 5, 2016)

I saw that junior doctors had been threatened with being struck off if they strike. Strange how withdrawing your labour for five days is threatening patient safety but withdrawing doctors' labour permanently isn't.


----------



## existentialist (Sep 5, 2016)

two sheds said:


> I saw that junior doctors had been threatened with being struck off if they strike. Strange how withdrawing your labour for five days is threatening patient safety but withdrawing doctors' labour permanently isn't.


Yeah. That's what is so shit about this whole business.

Suppose the JDs did just roll over and agree to the new contract?

First of all, there's nothing to suggest that this is a one-shot deal - "let's get this Junior Doctor contract anomaly sorted out, and the NHS can continue as it should have done". If they capitulate, then the government is going to go after other groups of health professionals in order to force them to accept more onerous conditions; and we have no reason to suggest that a vindictive government won't go back to the junior doctors for a second bit of the cherry, and so on...

But more nauseatingly, the likely effect would be to make a profession that, thanks to university tuition fees and the scrapping of grants, is increasingly struggling to recruit trainees, and struggling even more to retain them, even more stretched. It takes 9 years to get someone from entering university to being fit to practice even as a junior doctor, which means the damage being done now will only come into full bloom that far down the line. And it will take a further 9 years following any subsequent government doing something about it before the problem is resolved. We've already seen this with the cockup the Thatcher government made in botching up training placements for medics, which resulted in a shortage of doctors some 5+ years afterwards.

It's not even about whether we want an NHS. If we want to produce our own doctors, rather than asset-stripping poorer countries of theirs, as we have done in the past - doctors, nurses, all kinds of professions - then we need to make sure we're making it an attractive enough profession that competent, capable people who can complete the training and then work effectively *want* to become doctors. It's not the sort of job you can send someone from the Jobcentre to go and do on a zero-hours contract, with in-service training, as the government fondly seems to imagine is the way to resolve any labour situation.


----------



## two sheds (Sep 5, 2016)

still, people can always take out private insurance and get all the medical care they need as the NHS is run into the ground


----------



## existentialist (Sep 5, 2016)

two sheds said:


> still, people can always take out private insurance and get all the medical care they need as the NHS is run into the ground


Well, yes, though I wonder where they're going to get the doctors from?

This is turning into NHS dentistry all over again, and look how well that turned out 

The rise of DIY dentistry: Britons doing their own fillings to avoid NHS bill

Success for Dentaid’s First UK Project | Dentaid


----------



## weltweit (Sep 5, 2016)

Junior doctors have called off the first 5 day strike as they felt hospitals had not had enough time to prepare.


----------



## two sheds (Sep 5, 2016)

existentialist said:


> Well, yes, though I wonder where they're going to get the doctors from?
> 
> This is turning into NHS dentistry all over again, and look how well that turned out
> 
> ...



My last NHS visit a couple of months ago was a clean and a bit of a filling - cost me £60 I think it was for about 10 minutes. The filling's since come out.


----------



## existentialist (Sep 5, 2016)

two sheds said:


> My last NHS visit a couple of months ago was a clean and a bit of a filling - cost me £60 I think it was for about 10 minutes. The filling's since come out.


Mine's about 45 minutes' drive away, and any attendance for treatment invariably involves one, or two initial visits while they prod and poke and prescribe antibiotics. With each trip costing about £10 in fuel. And the last time I had a tooth needing extracting, she refused to do it and said it'd have to be done in hospital. So I ended up paying a private dentist to do it - £85, and it was out in 2 minutes.

But I can't afford to keep paying private dentists.

And if the situation got like that with doctors...well, I wouldn't be seeing the doctor for much, either.


----------



## treelover (Sep 5, 2016)

> The committee’s decision to stage week-long total withdrawals of junior doctor labour across the NHS in England each month until December had prompted such anger that McCourt even received death threats over what some saw as a reckless and indefensible course of action. However, she has not indicated whether those threats came from fellow junior doctors or members of the public.
> 
> McCourt revealed in a message she posted on a junior doctors’ Facebook message site on Sunday: “My 64-year-old retired mother has had the press camped outside her house. JDC members’ lives have been splashed across the papers. And I have received threats to my life.” That followed several days of hostile coverage in several newspapers of the planned strikes and of BMA leaders who had endorsed them.
> 
> BMA calls off September junior doctors' strike after 'scores' of protests




Looks like the J/D's, well, the BMA JD committee, are getting the sort of press attention that other strike leaders have come to expect.


----------



## killer b (Sep 5, 2016)

They've been getting that kind of attention since before the first strike.


----------



## treelover (Sep 20, 2016)

Gone now, but it looks as if the BMA may be setting up support groups at last.


----------



## Guineveretoo (Sep 24, 2016)

It is all off, it would seem. 

Junior doctors call off five-day strikes over contracts - BBC News


----------



## teqniq (Sep 28, 2016)

Junior doctors fail in high court challenge of new contract's legality


----------



## treelover (Sep 28, 2016)




----------



## mwgdrwg (Sep 28, 2016)

Why call the strike off beofre the high court outcome is known?


----------



## killer b (Sep 28, 2016)

There wasn't enough support for the strike among the Jr's. Two separate things.

The court case was always a waste of time in any case imo


----------



## Guineveretoo (Sep 29, 2016)

BREAKING: The junior doctors just LOST their High Court battle against Jeremy Hunt | The Canary


----------



## NoXion (Sep 29, 2016)

FUCK


----------



## brogdale (Oct 4, 2016)




----------

