# Are there any laws re getting staff working unsociable hours home?



## trashpony (Nov 26, 2006)

My 16 year old niece has just started working at a pub near her house. She lives in the middle of nowhere and it's about a kilometre walk along the main road to get there and there are no street lights and places where there isn't really a pavement in typical rural stylee.

She finished work at 1am on Friday night/Sat morning and walked home on her own. Don't the pub have to provide some kind of transport for her or is that bollocks?


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## waverunner (Nov 26, 2006)

I don't think there are any laws but I'm not sure. I know our company often involved people working late when not expected. If they were there late (subjective definition) they could take the company car home as long as they brought it back in the morning. 

If your niece's boss is reasonable she should be able to sit down with her boss and discuss the situation. Surely she's not working alone till that time? maybe a timetable can be worked out whereby she's on the same shift as someone with a car. If it's only a km away from the pub, they shouldn't mind dropping her home at the end of the night even if it's out of their way...


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## The Pious Pawn (Nov 26, 2006)

I use to work as a pot boy from 15 in a club , The boss use to pay for a taxi for all the staff home ( And buy us chicken and chips )  . I do not think there is a law against it but it comes down to common decentcy , Advice her to look for a new job the boss seems a plonker ! whats a £10 tops for someones safety ? .


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## trashpony (Nov 26, 2006)

The Pious Pawn said:
			
		

> I use to work as a pot boy from 15 in a club , The boss use to pay for a taxi for all the staff home ( And buy us chicken and chips )  . I do not think there is a law against it but it comes down to common decentcy , Advice her to look for a new job the boss seems a plonker ! whats a £10 tops for someones safety ? .



Yeah - that's the thing. Just seems a bit bloody stingy to be honest. It's not far out of anyone's way really and she's so young. Not to mention really very naive


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## spanglechick (Nov 26, 2006)

i don't know the law - when i managed cinemas, we didn't pay for taxis at the rochester cinema - most staff drove, and others told us how late they could get the bus - if we needed them later then we did pay.

at the docklands cinema no one drove and it cost us over a grand a week in taxis, because that's what we promised when we recruited initially. "late" was counted as after 11pm


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## ELO (Nov 26, 2006)

spanglechick said:
			
		

> i when i managed cinemas, we didn't pay for taxis at the rochester cinema - most staff drove, and others told us how late they could get the bus - if we needed them later then we did pay.


If you pay for taxis for staff without cars that isn't very fair on staff who have the expense of running a car out of their wages-unless they get some sort of mileage allowance.

( a general comment on Spanglechicks previous employer, not on the OPs nieces situation-I'd have no problem giving someone a lift for 1km for free and in any case she's too young to drive)


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## cesare (Nov 26, 2006)

There's nothing specific afaia but previously I've used the argument that employers have a general duty of care for the health and safety of their employees - which would extend to making reasonable arrangements to provide for that if they impose unusual working conditions (such as the requirement to work after the last bus/train runs etc). Iyswim.


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## Radar (Nov 26, 2006)

I worked part time as a barman during the late seventies/early eighties back in Ireland, from when I was about 12 until about 17 or 18 yo. No taxis there, you got on your bike and cycled, no matter it was 2am  

Having said that, this was in the arse end of nowhere in the sticks and I could guarantee 95% of the houses I passed on the way home wouldn't have locked their back doors.

A few years later I worked part time In McDonalds while I was at Uni. They did pay for taxis for late night workers, but only if they asked you to cover at another store.

All a bit different nowadays I hope.


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## Callie (Nov 26, 2006)

cesare said:
			
		

> There's nothing specific afaia but previously I've used the argument that employers have a general duty of care for the health and safety of their employees - *which would extend to making reasonable arrangements to provide for that if they impose unusual working conditions* (such as the requirement to work after the last bus/train runs etc). Iyswim.




But surely thats their get out clause - 'if you don't like it you don't have to do it/get a new job'??

Where I work people on the on-call rota (evenings and weekends) get a travel allowance to pay for transport to and from work out of normal working hours. Normals working hours being before 7am and after 7pm. If you work in a pub/club I would imagine your 'normal working hours' are different and therefore there is less of an obligation to provide some sort of travel arrangement?


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## cesare (Nov 26, 2006)

Callie said:
			
		

> But surely thats their get out clause - 'if you don't like it you don't have to do it/get a new job'??
> 
> Where I work people on the on-call rota (evenings and weekends) get a travel allowance to pay for transport to and from work out of normal working hours. Normals working hours being before 7am and after 7pm. If you work in a pub/club I would imagine your 'normal working hours' are different and therefore there is less of an obligation to provide some sort of travel arrangement?



I don't see it as a 'get out' clause as such. Counter productive if they do try and argue that.

Employers would have a hard time recruiting if they adopted that attitude when they're competing to employ a limited labour market with specific travel issues. As an example the employers at Heathrow have shifts that start before and after the start of the trains. Not taking this into account by way of a travel/parking allowance puts them at a distinct disadvantage when trying to attract staff.  

There's also the moral/responsible employer reputation to factor in. It's in their own best interests to make provision for travel with unsocial hours. But inevitably there will be short sighted/rubbish employers that will try and save costs etc by not making those sorts of provisions.

I was just answering the question about whether there were any laws on the subject, but obviously there're very strong moral and economic arguments as well.


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## trashpony (Nov 26, 2006)

The irony of this whole situation is that my sister was very anxious about said niece coming to stay for the weekend with me last year because it meant her travelling on the train from Sevenoaks to Charing X on her own. Now it's okay for her to walk for 1/2 hour in the dark. 

Granted, she's a year older but she's hardly grown up. I think this might be rural vs urban coming into play.


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## spanglechick (Nov 26, 2006)

trashpony said:
			
		

> The irony of this whole situation is that my sister was very anxious about said niece coming to stay for the weekend with me last year because it meant her travelling on the train from Sevenoaks to Charing X on her own. Now it's okay for her to walk for 1/2 hour in the dark.
> 
> Granted, she's a year older but she's hardly grown up. I think this might be rural vs urban coming into play.


might she be safer on a bike? she'd certainly be faster.


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## pogofish (Nov 26, 2006)

Even if they don't provide a taxi, IME many firms will give pub-staff a good discount anyway - Pubs are usually good sources of customers etc.  She should see if the pub promotes any firms in particular (eg cards by the phone/on thebar) & see what they offer.

IME, virtually all pubs I've had anything to do with have provided lifts/taxis to somewhere convenient for their staff who work late.  Some even get them for free as part of a reccomendation/sole promotion deal.


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## trashpony (Nov 26, 2006)

spanglechick said:
			
		

> might she be safer on a bike? she'd certainly be faster.



A bicycle? I'm not sure if she has one. Perhaps she should take the hoss


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## LilMissHissyFit (Nov 26, 2006)

I dont know if its law at all but I know the staff at the nightclub where my ex worked years ago arranged taxis for the staff because there was no way they would get home otherwise and they shouldnt have had to run the gauntlet of pissed punters after work waiting for taxis in the queues.
If they didnt have a taxi they got reduced parking in the car park nearby and a bouncer to walk them there.

Its just decency, if staff are too scared to get home you can hardly expect them to keep showing up, you want staff, you look after them.


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## anotherTzone (Nov 27, 2006)

Maybe the pub shouldn't expect a 16 year old girl to work until 1am in the morning there? 
Perhaps they need to be a bit more thoughtful. Failing that is there anyone that could drive her home, relative or responsible worker?


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## nadia (Nov 27, 2006)

http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/index...e_and_employment.htm#hoursofworkandrestbreaks



She isn't really supposed to work past 11pm anyway


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## cesare (Nov 27, 2006)

Not normally.

Is that finishing time usual trashpony?


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## zenie (Nov 27, 2006)

I'm inclined to think "Meh she is 16 she isnt a kid"

If you knew the stuff I did when i was 16


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## trashpony (Nov 27, 2006)

cesare said:
			
		

> Not normally.
> 
> Is that finishing time usual trashpony?



Dunno - it was her first night. That's quite funny though - I think I'll tell my sister.

Al;so afaik, the plan is that my sister or her husband will go and pick her up normally but they were away this weekend. Although tbh I can't see my sister staying up until that time to go and get her ...


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## trashpony (Nov 27, 2006)

zenie said:
			
		

> I'm inclined to think "Meh she is 16 she isnt a kid"
> 
> If you knew the stuff I did when i was 16



She's not a 16 year old like you were  She's only ever kissed boys and never had a proper boyfriend. She's barely drunk and never smoked. When I said to her to avoid empty carriages when she got the train on her own she didn't understand why. Street smart isn't really happening


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## cesare (Nov 27, 2006)

trashpony said:
			
		

> Dunno - it was her first night. That's quite funny though - I think I'll tell my sister.
> 
> Al;so afaik, the plan is that my sister or her husband will go and pick her up normally but they were away this weekend. Although tbh I can't see my sister staying up until that time to go and get her ...



Blimey - working til 1am on your first night! What's her job entail, do you know?


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## trashpony (Nov 27, 2006)

cesare said:
			
		

> Blimey - working til 1am on your first night! What's her job entail, do you know?



She's waitressing in a pub that does food. I don't know more than that


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## AnnaKarpik (Nov 27, 2006)

cesare said:
			
		

> Blimey - working til 1am on your first night! What's her job entail, do you know?



I'm guessing a 16 yo is waitressing so if the pub does food till late, clearing up and making sure everything is set for the morning can easily take till that time - we finished food orders at nine and closed the bar at 11 and regularly worked till midnight.  But I don't think keeping a young'un there till 1 is reasonable regardless of what needs doing - that's got to be at least a 6 hour shift which is a killer even when you're used to the work. There have to be older, experienced staff on who can do the final bits of clearing up. And good time management can work wonders too. Are the people running the pub very experienced? Are there lots of kids looking for part-time work?

The bike is a good idea - my eldest got one to get her home from her pub job down South. i quote "No fucker's catching me on this!"


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## baldrick (Nov 27, 2006)

Some places will provide taxis, others won't, all depends how stingy the boss is IME.

But 1km isn't really that far - she should be capable of walking that, surely.  The only issue that is of concern to me is getting run over if there's no pavements  i would see if she could get a lift from someone first and then raise the issue of taxis.

i used to work after midnight on regular occasions when i was that age and younger - the 11pm cut-off doesn't apply to some industries, inc catering.


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## UnderAnOpenSky (Nov 27, 2006)

I used to walk everywhere when i was 16, 1km only 12/15mins walk. If it is down a dark country road, consider a head tourch and high vis vest.


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## anotherTzone (Nov 27, 2006)

A young girl walking through dark roads at 1am in the morning in this current day and age is different. I'd sort some transport, maybe paranoid but its a peice of mind thing.


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## trashpony (Nov 27, 2006)

baldrick said:
			
		

> Some places will provide taxis, others won't, all depends how stingy the boss is IME.
> 
> But 1km isn't really that far - she should be capable of walking that, surely.  The only issue that is of concern to me is getting run over if there's no pavements  i would see if she could get a lift from someone first and then raise the issue of taxis.
> 
> i used to work after midnight on regular occasions when i was that age and younger - the 11pm cut-off doesn't apply to some industries, inc catering.



It's not the length of the walk at all - she's perfectly capable. It's the fact that it's pitch black, no street lights and no houses. She's vulnerable, not only from speeding drivers (and they drive *very* fast along there - it's a B road with no cameras and a 60mph limit) but also from random weirdos.


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## Mation (Nov 28, 2006)

trashpony said:
			
		

> It's not the length of the walk at all - she's perfectly capable. It's the fact that it's pitch black, no street lights and no houses. She's vulnerable, not only from speeding drivers (and they drive *very* fast along there - it's a B road with no cameras and a 60mph limit) but also from random weirdos.


Not a walk I'd want to do now, as an elderly lady  , for both the traffic and weirdo reasons.

Has she asked her employer about transport home?


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## cesare (Nov 28, 2006)

What did they tell her when she took the job on? (Expectations and the like?)


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## baldrick (Nov 28, 2006)

trashpony said:
			
		

> It's not the length of the walk at all - she's perfectly capable. It's the fact that it's pitch black, no street lights and no houses.


totally take your point there.  my cousin and her best mate got run over walking along a country road in the dark.  my cousin got her legs smashed up, her mate died.  you're absolutely right, she should be getting a lift or a taxi, no argument.


> She's vulnerable, not only from speeding drivers but also from random weirdos.


the chance of her happening upon a random weirdo is practically nil.


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## trashpony (Nov 28, 2006)

baldrick said:
			
		

> totally take your point there.  my cousin and her best mate got run over walking along a country road in the dark.  my cousin got her legs smashed up, her mate died.  you're absolutely right, she should be getting a lift or a taxi, no argument.
> the chance of her happening upon a random weirdo is practically nil.



I'm not really worried about the random weirdos but her grandad is 

It's the speeding driver along the wet/icy road that causes me concern


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## Ms Ordinary (Nov 28, 2006)

baldrick said:
			
		

> the chance of her happening upon a random weirdo is practically nil.



Normally I'd agree *totally* with you on that - but if its a regular journey & you work somewhere like a pub where your face can be recognised, I think you are a little more vulnerable, though its still extremely unlikely.

Since it is such a short walk, is there no way one of the other staff could walk with her on their way home, or drop her off in a car.  Even if no-one goes in that direction, 1km each each way is only about 5 mins in a car surely?

How do the other staff get home?

If her parents (will) usually pick her up & it was her first day, was she just too shy to ask someone else for a lift?


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## trashpony (Nov 28, 2006)

Ms Ordinary said:
			
		

> Normally I'd agree *totally* with you on that - but if its a regular journey & you work somewhere like a pub where your face can be recognised, I think you are a little more vulnerable, though its still extremely unlikely.
> 
> Since it is such a short walk, is there no way one of the other staff could walk with her on their way home, or drop her off in a car.  Even if no-one goes in that direction, 1km each each way is only about 5 mins in a car surely?
> 
> ...



I don't know what other people do. I need to speak to my sister really but she's a bit fierce and I don't want to interfere  

I'm sure someone would have been going her way - the pub's on the main road and she's further along the same road. I dunno - maybe she was too shy or she didn't want to be alone in the car with someone. Who knows? Like most 16 year olds, she's not the most communicative


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