# Head of Addison Lee tells its drivers to use bus lanes/cycle lanes (if they kill cyclists, oh well)



## Brixton Hatter (Apr 16, 2012)

> The Chairman, John Griffin, wrote
> Our legal advice is that bus lane regulations are currently being misinterpreted to exclude [private hire vehicles] from bus lanes. Such misinterpretation is unlawful.​


 
Cheeky fuckers. Addison Lee drivers are among the worst cunts on the road for giving cyclists hassle. Time for TFL to actually do something good for a change and put a stop to this nonsense.

Personally, if I find any Addison Lee cabs in the bus lane when I'm cycling to work, I will cycle in the middle of the lane, very slowly, until I come to a stop and block their way through. I urge all other cyclists to do the same.

More here:
http://www.croydoncyclist.co.uk/addison-lee-vehicles-can-not-use-bus-lanes/

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-17722416


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## temper_tantrum (Apr 16, 2012)

Big Boris donor, I think.


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## editor (Apr 16, 2012)

Because someone being driven around in a cab is just that so much more important than a whole busload of passengers.


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## Brixton Hatter (Apr 16, 2012)

they think it's unfair that people in bus lanes travel faster them, aaaaaaaaaaawwwwwwwwwwwww ((((addison lee))))


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## quimcunx (Apr 16, 2012)

I thought their problem was that black cabs could do it but they couldn't?   Presumably, then they are only driving in lanes where black cabs are allowed like the A23 through Kennington.


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## Brixton Hatter (Apr 16, 2012)

temper_tantrum said:


> Big Boris donor, I think.


really? Interesting....


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## temper_tantrum (Apr 16, 2012)

Can't remember where I saw that now ... will try and find source.

Edit: @Helzbels on Twitter:
*Addison**Lee* donations to Tories: 10/12/08 £50,000. 21/4/09 £50,000. 9/4/10 £50,000. 19/9/11 £100,000


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## Brixton Hatter (Apr 16, 2012)

quimcunx said:


> I thought their problem was that black cabs could do it but they couldn't?


Yes - the law as drafted is currently unclear and they're trying to exploit it to make a point. There's more info in the OP in that link to Croydon Cyclists.

It would be great if the drivers DID drive in the bus lanes and racked up shit loads of tickets


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## Teaboy (Apr 16, 2012)

His main point seems to be that black cabs are allowed to use them but minicabs not, he can't realistically believe that given the volume of minicabs around he will get his way. Is he trying to start a debate on whether black cabs should be banned from bus lanes?

Either way the man his a loud mouth twat straight out of the Michael O'Leary guide to management and PR, always trying to throw his weight around either by this sort of shit or major donations to the tories.


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## joustmaster (Apr 16, 2012)

quimcunx said:


> I thought their problem was that black cabs could do it but they couldn't?   Presumably, then they are only driving in lanes where black cabs are allowed like the A23 through Kennington.


aren't black cabs allowed in all bus lanes?


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## Yelkcub (Apr 16, 2012)

Brixton Hatter said:


> Yes - the law as drafted is currently unclear and they're trying to exploit it to make a point. There's more info in the OP in that link to Croydon Cyclists.
> 
> It would be great if the drivers DID drive in the bus lanes and racked up shit loads of tickets


 
Tickets would be down to the drivers though, so they aren't going to take the risk


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## EastEnder (Apr 16, 2012)

quimcunx said:


> I thought their problem was that black cabs could do it but they couldn't?


Pretty much. Thing is, anyone can use a black cab, whereas AL are strictly on-account only. And on which basis, I'd argue they've even less right to use bus lanes than regular, non-exclusive minicabs.


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## quimcunx (Apr 16, 2012)

joustmaster said:


> aren't black cabs allowed in all bus lanes?


Maybe.    I might have been thinking about the motorbike scheme on that bus lane.


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## Brixton Hatter (Apr 16, 2012)

Yeah I think black cabs are allowed to use all bus lanes apart from a very small number of bus-only lanes, such as (I think) the contraflow bus/cycle lane along the top of Clapham Common.


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## TitanSound (Apr 16, 2012)

EastEnder said:


> Thing is, anyone can use a black cab, whereas AL are strictly on-account only.


 
No they're not. You've been able to do non account bookings for years.


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## Brixton Hatter (Apr 16, 2012)

let's ban black cabs from the bus lanes anyway. Just to see how mental the drivers go.....


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## Ms Ordinary (Apr 16, 2012)

Addison Lee rip off their drivers as well, according to this investigation
Or is that old news?


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## joustmaster (Apr 16, 2012)

quimcunx said:


> Maybe.    I might have been thinking about the motorbike scheme on that bus lane.


hang on, can't motorbikes use all bus lanes too?


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## peterkro (Apr 16, 2012)

Brixton Hatter said:


> let's ban black cabs from the bus lanes anyway. Just to see how mental the drivers go.....


 
I don't see why black cabs can use bus lanes in the first place,bastards.


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## Brixton Hatter (Apr 16, 2012)

Ms Ordinary said:


> Addison Lee rip off their drivers as well, according to this investigation
> Or is that old news?


cheers for that link, hadn't seen it before 

AL seem like a horrible bunch of fcukers.


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## Hellsbells (Apr 16, 2012)

any taxi driving in a bus lane is annoying for me as a cyclist. They stop and start and pull over really suddenly, often with no warning, no indication, nothing


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## pesh (Apr 16, 2012)

i think he's under the impression that as his firm now charges more than a black cab costs in a lot of cases he's entitled to the black cab perks.


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## quimcunx (Apr 16, 2012)

joustmaster said:


> hang on, can't motorbikes use all bus lanes too?


 
I don't know. They never used to be able to. The A23 bus lane through kennington used to have signs on it saying it was a trial. At the end of the trial the trial was extended.

E2A:  Here you go. 

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/motorcycles-in-bus-lanes.pdf


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## FridgeMagnet (Apr 16, 2012)

He's been banging on about black cabs using bus lanes when (other) private cabs can't for years, and not got anywhere with it. Apparently he's now trying to force it to court.

I don't have any particular sympathy for the company but tbh I don't have much sympathy for black cabs being able to use bus lanes either.


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## Pickman's model (Apr 16, 2012)

the people who should be banned from bus lanes are, imo, cyclists. however, given that cyclists are already banned from pavements and nonetheless frequently cycle there this might best be resolved by providing a proper network of cycle lanes. of course, to make sure cyclists use them some sort of mandatory training ought to be provided to cyclists. this might also have the effect of reducing cyclist fatalities.


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## fredfelt (Apr 16, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> the people who should be banned from bus lanes are, imo, cyclists. however, given that cyclists are already banned from pavements and nonetheless frequently cycle there this might best be resolved by providing a proper network of cycle lanes. of course, to make sure cyclists use them some sort of mandatory training ought to be provided to cyclists. this might also have the effect of reducing cyclist fatalities.


 
You forgot to mention red traffic lights and road tax.  With those points your comment would have definatley helped with the quality of debate in this thread.


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## Pickman's model (Apr 16, 2012)

fredfelt said:


> You forgot to mention red traffic lights and road tax. With those points your comment would have definatley helped with the quality of debate in this thread.


bus lanes, as the name indicates, are primarily there for buses. i've lost count of the number of times i've seen buses held up by cyclists going maybe 5mph in bus lanes. i'm not as fussed about traffic lights as i might be, it's bus lanes and pavements which impact on me. but the notion of road tax, you might be on to something there.


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## Brixton Hatter (Apr 16, 2012)

FridgeMagnet said:


> He's been banging on about black cabs using bus lanes when (other) private cabs can't for years, and not got anywhere with it. Apparently he's now trying to force it to court.
> 
> I don't have any particular sympathy for the company but tbh I don't have much sympathy for black cabs being able to use bus lanes either.


Me neither....how did they get the 'right' to use bus lanes in the first place?

IIRC bus lanes started coming in to major use in the 1990's - well, late 1990's I'd say. Before that buses used to crawl along with the rest of the traffic.


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## editor (Apr 16, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> of course, to make sure cyclists use them some sort of mandatory training ought to be provided to cyclists. this might also have the effect of reducing cyclist fatalities.


Cyclist fatalties have almost always got fuck all to do with riding on pavements.


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## Pickman's model (Apr 16, 2012)

editor said:


> Cyclist fatalties have almost always got fuck all to do with riding on pavements.


i never said it did though.


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## pesh (Apr 16, 2012)

Brixton Hatter said:


> Me neither....how did they get the 'right' to use bus lanes in the first place?
> 
> IIRC bus lanes started coming in to major use in the 1990's - well, late 1990's I'd say. Before that buses used to crawl along with the rest of the traffic.


 
more like the mid 80s, i remember black cabs being in the bus lanes when i was on my way to school.


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## kittyP (Apr 16, 2012)

editor said:


> Because someone being driven around in a cab is just that so much more important than a whole busload of passengers.


 
I am not disagreeing but black cabs can use bus lanes can't they...?

Ok, that's already been said. 

You do have to bare in mind that a lot of private hire vehicle companies have contracts with local authorities to get disabled people that can't use public transport around. 
Also patients too and from hospital. 

Often the councils mini-buses that do that kind of thing too are not aloud in bus lanes either. 

I am just pointing this out.


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## editor (Apr 16, 2012)

kittyP said:


> I am not disagreeing but black cabs can use bus lanes can't they...?
> 
> Ok, that's already been said.
> 
> ...


And what percentage of Addison Lee cabs do you think are employed carrying disabled people around?


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## kittyP (Apr 16, 2012)

editor said:


> And what percentage of Addison Lee cabs do you think are employed carrying disabled people around?


 
They often do a lot of the work for our school.

And also, if Addison Lee are allowed to do it then they would probably have to look at other firms too.


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## salem (Apr 16, 2012)

The law is inconsistent and the bloke is advocating some civil disobedience to highlight this. Can't say I disagree with his stance massively.

Whether *any* private hire vehicles should be allowed in bus lanes, I'm not so sure.

Either way, Addison Lee have my respect for taking on the black cab drivers and beating them at their own game despite having so many disadvantages. It's a long time coming.


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## Pickman's model (Apr 16, 2012)

kittyP said:


> They often do a lot of the work for our school.
> 
> And also, if Addison Lee are allowed to do it then they would probably have to look at other firms too.


before you knew it there would need to be new bus lanes only for buses and special cab lanes for cabs


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## editor (Apr 16, 2012)

So let taxis carrying disabled people use the lane - because they're effectively an ambulance of sorts - and all the other cab traffic can go in with the regular road traffic.


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## Pickman's model (Apr 16, 2012)

salem said:


> The law is inconsistent and the bloke is advocating some civil disobedience to highlight this. Can't say I disagree massively.
> 
> Addison Lee have my respect for taking on the black cab drivers and beating them at their own game despite having so many disadvantages. It's a long time coming.


what game's that then?


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## kittyP (Apr 16, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> before you knew it there would need to be new bus lanes only for buses and special cab lanes for cabs


 
what?


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## kittyP (Apr 16, 2012)

editor said:


> So let taxis carrying disabled people use the lane - because they're effectively an ambulance of sorts - and all the other cab traffic can go in with the regular road traffic.


 
But how do you know if they are carrying disabled people?


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## salem (Apr 16, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> what game's that then?


Driving people about London.


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## Pickman's model (Apr 16, 2012)

kittyP said:


> what?


which part of it are you having difficulty with?


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## editor (Apr 16, 2012)

kittyP said:


> But how do you know if they are carrying disabled people?


They get to display a badge when doing so.


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## kittyP (Apr 16, 2012)

editor said:


> They get to display a badge when doing so.


 
Do they pay people to look at every vehicle that drives in a bus lane that closely?


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## Pickman's model (Apr 16, 2012)

salem said:


> Driving people about London.


so they've not only taken on black cabs, they've also taken on buses and ambulances and cop vans and fire engines and tourist buses and prison transports and coaches and people giving their mates a lift as well.


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## editor (Apr 16, 2012)

kittyP said:


> Do they pay people to look at every vehicle that drives in a bus lane that closely?


It may have escaped your notice, but London is plastered with CCTV cameras, what with the congestion scheme an' all.


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## Pickman's model (Apr 16, 2012)

kittyP said:


> Do they pay people to look at every vehicle that drives in a bus lane that closely?


they could use anpr to check licence plates


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## kittyP (Apr 16, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> which part of it are you having difficulty with?


 
That wasn't what I was saying and tis silly. 

In most bus lanes, buses, cyclists , motorcycles and black-cabs use them. 
Would it make thaaaat much difference for registered private hire vehicles to use them too?


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## Pickman's model (Apr 16, 2012)

editor said:


> It may have escaped your notice, but London is plastered with CCTV cameras, what with the congestion scheme an' all.


yes: but not every cctv camera can read a number plate. do you mean cctv operators should check all the car windows for stickers?


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## kittyP (Apr 16, 2012)

editor said:


> It may have escaped your notice, but London is plastered with CCTV cameras, what with the congestion scheme an' all.


 
No, that was a genuine question. I wasn't taking the piss.
So someone looks at every single car that creeps in to a bus lane individually.. bloody hell.

Most people that watch CCTV, scan TV screens. You would have to have one person per screen, per stretch of road, not looking away for that.


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## Pickman's model (Apr 16, 2012)

kittyP said:


> That wasn't what I was saying and tis silly.
> 
> In most bus lanes, buses, cyclists , motorcycles and black-cabs use them.
> Would it make thaaaat much difference for registered private hire vehicles to use them too?


and you're well on the way to having crowded bus lanes, leading to new bus lanes in which only buses would be allowed to enable them to cut through congestion, leaving private hire vehicles, motorcyclists and cyclists in the old bus lanes.


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## Pickman's model (Apr 16, 2012)

kittyP said:


> No, that was a genuine question. I wasn't taking the piss.
> So someone looks at every single car that creeps in to a bus lane individually.. bloody hell.
> 
> Most people that watch CCTV, scan TV screens. You would have to have one person per screen, per stretch of road, not looking away for that.


yes, which means a greater use of anpr.


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## kittyP (Apr 16, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> and you're well on the way to having crowded bus lanes, leading to new bus lanes in which only buses would be allowed to enable them to cut through congestion, leaving private hire vehicles, motorcyclists and cyclists in the old bus lanes.


 
OK. 

So if that is likely to happen anyway............?


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## geminisnake (Apr 16, 2012)

quimcunx said:


> I don't know. They never used to be able to. The A23 bus lane through kennington used to have signs on it saying it was a trial. At the end of the trial the trial was extended.
> 
> E2A: Here you go.
> 
> http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/motorcycles-in-bus-lanes.pdf


 
Don't see why motorbikes can't use them. It quite clearly states on the tax disc that they ARE bicycles


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## scifisam (Apr 16, 2012)

Can regular cars (and private hire minicabs) go into bus lanes for the purposes of picking up and dropping off passengers?


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## Pickman's model (Apr 16, 2012)

scifisam said:


> Can regular cars (and private hire minicabs) go into bus lanes for the purposes of picking up and dropping off passengers?


depends on the bus lane, where this may be permitted eg before 7am or on sundays


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## scifisam (Apr 16, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> depends on the bus lane, where this may be permitted eg before 7am or on sundays


 
OK. Reason I asked is that black cabs are the only type of taxis that are hailed on the street, therefore they're the ones that have more need to use bus lanes.

Disabled people with Taxicards can also use black cabs at a pretty substantial discount.


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## pogofish (Apr 16, 2012)

Brixton Hatter said:


> It would be great if the drivers DID drive in the bus lanes and racked up shit loads of tickets


 
IIRC, it was this firm that did for the M4 Bus Lane - And all the tickets racked-up against their drivers were dropped by the courts.


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## ViolentPanda (Apr 16, 2012)

editor said:


> Cyclist fatalties have almost always got fuck all to do with riding on pavements.


 
Whereas pedestrian fatalities...


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## ViolentPanda (Apr 16, 2012)

editor said:


> So let taxis carrying disabled people use the lane - because they're effectively an ambulance of sorts - and all the other cab traffic can go in with the regular road traffic.


 
I know you're not deliberately being offensive and/or patronising, but...

...get away to fuck with being so offensive and patronising!
"Effectively an ambulance of sorts" my pile-ridden arse!


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## ViolentPanda (Apr 16, 2012)

kittyP said:


> But how do you know if they are carrying disabled people?


 
He'll probably say they have to display a badge or other symbol that means "cripple on board".


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## ViolentPanda (Apr 16, 2012)

editor said:


> They get to display a badge when doing so.


 
I fucking knew it!!


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## ViolentPanda (Apr 16, 2012)

editor said:


> It may have escaped your notice, but London is plastered with CCTV cameras, what with the congestion scheme an' all.


 
Yeah, but how, even with this plastering of CCTV cameras, do you determine whether the passengers of the bus lane-using taxi are people with disabilities? I don't reckon the cameras are quite that high-tech yet.


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## kittyP (Apr 16, 2012)

That would be very very costly to police in terms of man power checking it. 

As Pickmans said, you would have to rely on some sort of recognition software which can be awfully flawed. 

I once got a ticket for driving in a bus lane even though it was suspended due to road works and I _had to_ drive in it unless I wanted to collide with oncoming traffic


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## editor (Apr 16, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Yeah, but how, even with this plastering of CCTV cameras, do you determine whether the passengers of the bus lane-using taxi are people with disabilities? I don't reckon the cameras are quite that high-tech yet.


They could display a sign on their window that was readable by the cameras. Or they could allocate certain cabs for that journey.

But anyway, I don't want those Toryboy cab cunts clogging up bus lanes.


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## Pickman's model (Apr 16, 2012)

editor said:


> They could display a sign on their window that was readable by the cameras. Or they could allocate certain cabs for that journey.
> 
> But anyway, I don't want those Toryboy cab cunts clogging up bus lanes.


i don't know why you don't think it worth going down the rather simpler anpr route. after all, if number plates can already be read by some cameras - including at the entrances and exits of the congestion zone - why not use that?


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## Winot (Apr 16, 2012)

quimcunx said:


> I don't know. They never used to be able to. The A23 bus lane through kennington used to have signs on it saying it was a trial. At the end of the trial the trial was extended.
> 
> E2A:  Here you go.
> 
> http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/motorcycles-in-bus-lanes.pdf



Ah yes - the "undertaking at speed" pilot.


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## Pickman's model (Apr 16, 2012)

Winot said:


> Ah yes - the "undertaking at speed" pilot.


if only they would start something like that, it would get the traffic moving rather quicker after a fatal accident.


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## ViolentPanda (Apr 16, 2012)

editor said:


> They could display a sign on their window that was readable by the cameras. Or they could allocate certain cabs for that journey.
> 
> But anyway, I don't want those Toryboy cab cunts clogging up bus lanes.


 
I haven't been quite honest with you, because I was/am offended by your "effectively an ambulance" howler. Basically, the taxi company that has the contract for Taxicard already have a distinctive badge on their livery (it makes it easier for people with Taxicards to hail only those taxis that accept Taxicard), it's the yellow, orange and black "target" logo on the front of ComCab/Datacab black taxis, but while it denotes that they *can* carry people with disabilities/have wheelchair ramps, it doesn't denote whether they *are*, at any specific time, carrying people with disabilities, IYSWIM.


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## Puddy_Tat (Apr 16, 2012)

editor said:


> They could display a sign on their window that was readable by the cameras. Or they could allocate certain cabs for that journey.


 
I'm not sure this would be workable / enforceable.  If all minicab drivers had the sticker available, the chances are they would misuse it.

You can't tell from looking at a passenger whether they have 'a disability' - there is a lot more to disabilities than wheelchair users.



editor said:


> But anyway, I don't want those Toryboy cab cunts clogging up bus lanes.


 
I'll settle for this


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## Pickman's model (Apr 16, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> I haven't been quite honest with you, because I was/am offended by your "effectively an ambulance" howler. Basically, the taxi company that has the contract for Taxicard already have a distinctive badge on their livery (it makes it easier for people with Taxicards to hail only those taxis that accept Taxicard), it's the yellow, orange and black "target" logo on the front of ComCab/Datacab black taxis, but while it denotes that they *can* carry people with disabilities/have wheelchair ramps, it doesn't denote whether they *are*, at any specific time, carrying people with disabilities, IYSWIM.


they should have an array of lights on top which can be switched on and will flicker in a code to indicate the precise disability of the person or people in the cab and if the passengers are sufficiently disabled then the cab will be permitted to use the bus lane. and if they're not disabled enough then a drone will destroy the cab in a surgical strike.


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## SLK (Apr 16, 2012)

The difference between black cabs and minicabs is that the customer is charged for sitting in traffic in black cabs.
If they weren't allowed to use bus lanes, I wouldn't use them. To be fair I do very rarely, but even so, I would never use them. I still use minicabs.
So not allowing black cabs to use bus lanes would mean a reduction in them. I think they're a good thing given the training, though I accept this is a marginal opinion.


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## SLK (Apr 16, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> they should have an array of lights on top which can be switched on and will flicker in a code to indicate the precise disability of the person or people in the cab and if the passengers are sufficiently disabled then the cab will be permitted to use the bus lane. and if they're not disabled enough then a drone will destroy the cab in a surgical strike.


 
Are the drones allowed to hover above bus lanes though?


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## editor (Apr 16, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> I haven't been quite honest with you, because I was/am offended by your "effectively an ambulance" howler.


Not sure why you're offended, but anyway, whatevs. I don't think the ToryBoy cab firm should be allowed to clog up bus lanes and make life more dangerous for cyclists, whoever's sat in the car.


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## editor (Apr 16, 2012)

SLK said:


> The difference between black cabs and minicabs is that the customer is charged for sitting in traffic in black cabs.
> If they weren't allowed to use bus lanes, I wouldn't use them. To be fair I do very rarely, but even so, I would never use them. I still use minicabs.
> So not allowing black cabs to use bus lanes would mean a reduction in them. I think they're a good thing given the training, though I accept this is a marginal opinion.


The other point is that black cabs need to be in the nearside lane to pick up fares because - unlike the Torymobiles - they can be flagged down in the street.


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## Pickman's model (Apr 16, 2012)

SLK said:


> Are the drones allowed to hover above bus lanes though?


who's going to stop them?


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## SLK (Apr 16, 2012)

editor said:


> The other point is that black cabs need to be in the nearside lane to pick up fares because - unlike the Torymobiles - they can be flagged down in the street.


 
I believe all vehicles are allowed to be in bus lanes for a width of two vehicle lengths. I'm not sure why this is. I suspect it is to avoid obstructions.
I also have no idea where I got that from, or why I believe it to be true, but I think I've heard it somewhere.


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## ViolentPanda (Apr 16, 2012)

editor said:


> Not sure why you're offended...


At your assumption/idea that because I (or any other person with disabilities) am in a taxi, it's "effectively an ambulance". Of course it isn't, not even if it's taking me to an appointment at a hospital, it's a taxi, and the reason they were given the ability to use bus lanes was pragmatic -  to ease congestion!


> ...but anyway, whatevs. I don't think the ToryBoy cab firm should be allowed to clog up bus lanes and make life more dangerous for cyclists, whoever's sat in the car.


 
I agree. I haven't been a fan of Addison Lee since the early '80s. They weren't/aren't a "live and let live" company as far as competition is concerned, is all I'll say.


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## ViolentPanda (Apr 16, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> who's going to stop them?


 
Good citizens with shotguns?


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## Pickman's model (Apr 16, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Good citizens with shotguns?


not sure a shotgun will take out a drone at 3000 feet.


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## ViolentPanda (Apr 16, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> not sure a shotgun will take out a drone at 3000 feet.


 
Good point. Trusty SMLEs, then.


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## SLK (Apr 16, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> not sure a shotgun will take out a drone at 3000 feet.


A drone at 3000 feet that takes out cabs without stickers?
Who is paying? I don't think you've thought this through.


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## editor (Apr 16, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> At your assumption/idea that because I (or any other person with disabilities) am in a taxi, it's "effectively an ambulance".


Where I grew up, it was not unusual to see people with disabilities or elderly folk being picked up in vehicles with the word 'ambulance' on the side. No offence was meant.


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## Pickman's model (Apr 16, 2012)

SLK said:


> A drone at 3000 feet that takes out cabs without stickers?
> Who is paying? I don't think you've thought this through.


you missed the bit about the flashing lights and if the code wasn't disabled enough a message would flash to the drone which would destroy the cab in a surgical strike.


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## Pickman's model (Apr 16, 2012)

editor said:


> Where I grew up, it was not unusual to see people with disabilities or elderly folk being picked up in vehicles with the word 'ambulance' on the side. No offence was meant.


i don't think the issue's where but when. not so much of that sort of thing these days.


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## editor (Apr 16, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> i don't think the issue's where but when. not so much of that sort of thing these days.


Vehicles marked 'ambulance' still pick up people for non urgent transport, you know.


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## SLK (Apr 16, 2012)

editor said:


> Where I grew up, it was not unusual to see people with disabilities or elderly folk being picked up in vehicles with the word 'ambulance' on the side. No offence was meant.


 
I agree with what you are saying, though I would say that switching on/off a badge or having disabled only taxis is not practical for monitoring purposes. The CCTV identifying badges issue is an issue isn't it? And which cab driver is going to volunteer for "only" the care-jobs. Sorry if that phrase causes offence, I couldn't think of another one.


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## Pickman's model (Apr 16, 2012)

editor said:


> Vehicles marked 'ambulance' still pick up people for non urgent transport, you know.


i refer you to the 'not so much of that sort of thing these days' part of my post. of course it still happens. but we've been going on about disabled people using vehicles which are NOT ambulances for quite some time now. in years gone by some of them would have been transported by ambulances too.


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## ViolentPanda (Apr 16, 2012)

editor said:


> Where I grew up, it was not unusual to see people with disabilities or elderly folk being picked up in vehicles with the word 'ambulance' on the side. No offence was meant.


 
I know that no offense was *intended*,  hence me starting post #60 with "I know you're not deliberately being offensive...", I was just trying to make the point that some people with disabilities (including myself) would read that, and if they weren't aware of anything else you'd written, would view your comment as medicalising their disability and themselves. We can be a bit chippy, you see...


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## SLK (Apr 16, 2012)

editor said:


> Vehicles marked 'ambulance' still pick up people for non urgent transport, you know.


 
Really? (I don't know how to point out this is not sarcastic)


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## editor (Apr 16, 2012)

> As well as dealing with emergency care, some NHS ambulance services provide non-emergency patient transport services (PTS). PTS is used for the non-urgent, planned transport of patients (who have a medical need for it) to, from or between NHS healthcare providers. A non-emergency patient is someone who needs treatment, which may or may not be specialist, and who does not require an immediate or urgent response.


http://www.nhs.uk/NHSEngland/AboutN...gentcareservices/Pages/Ambulanceservices.aspx


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## kittyP (Apr 16, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> it's the yellow, orange and black "target" logo on the front of ComCab/Datacab black taxis, but while it denotes that they *can* carry people with disabilities/have wheelchair ramps, it doesn't denote whether they *are*, at any specific time, carrying people with disabilities, IYSWIM.


 
Very good point.


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## editor (Apr 16, 2012)

And here's a pic of a vehicle marked 'ambulance' being used for non urgent transport:


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## kittyP (Apr 16, 2012)

editor said:


> The other point is that black cabs need to be in the nearside lane to pick up fares because - unlike the Torymobiles - they can be flagged down in the street.


 
Sorry Ed but in general, other than tourists, over all, what kind of people do you think use black cabs most....?


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## editor (Apr 16, 2012)

kittyP said:


> Sorry Ed but in general, other than tourists, over all, what kind of people do you think use black cabs most....?


Err, folks getting from A to B?


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## kittyP (Apr 16, 2012)

editor said:


> Vehicles marked 'ambulance' still pick up people for non urgent transport, you know.


 
They do, you are right, but when I was talking about transporting disabled people, that was not what I was talking about. 
Not to just to get them to hospital. 
What about a person with ME that cannot get on the bus but needs to go get somewhere.


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## kittyP (Apr 16, 2012)

editor said:


> Err, folks getting from A to B?


 
So most folks getting from A-B around London use black cabs. 
I would think it is mainly middle class bigger earners that use them over all tbh.


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## SLK (Apr 16, 2012)

editor said:


> http://www.nhs.uk/NHSEngland/AboutN...gentcareservices/Pages/Ambulanceservices.aspx


 
Thanks for the reference. My daughter being transferred from Kings in Camberwell to Queens in Romford is an example of that.
That's not a good example though. She was 3 weeks old and had a 40% chance of survival, and was operated on at 1 day old. But she's included in your category. And of course that's exactly the vehicle that took her, non urgently. Mum went with her. I sat in traffic shitting myself. Perhaps "non-urgent" needs redefining. She wasn't urgent. But she was, if you see what I mean.


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## editor (Apr 16, 2012)

kittyP said:


> So most folks getting from A-B around London use black cabs.
> I would think it is mainly middle class bigger earners that use them over all tbh.


Where did I say "most" people? 
All sorts of people use black cabs at different times.

I'm really not sure what point you're trying to make here.


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## SLK (Apr 16, 2012)

Of course I mean a 40% chance of survival when she was born. Apols


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## kittyP (Apr 16, 2012)

editor said:


> Where did I say "most" people?
> All sorts of people use black cabs at different times.
> 
> I'm really not sure what point you're trying to make here.


 
No, neither am I, sorry 
I am tired and stressed and have no idea why I am arguing about this stuff @self


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## SLK (Apr 16, 2012)

editor said:


> Where did I say "most" people?
> All sorts of people use black cabs at different times.
> 
> I'm really not sure what point you're trying to make here.


 
I agree with this. I also agree many rich people use them. I don't agree there is a huge point here apart from restricting the right of some people who have studied to make a living - partly of said rich people.


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## editor (Apr 16, 2012)

SLK said:


> I agree with this. I also agree many rich people use them. I don't agree there is a huge point here apart from restricting the right of some people who have studied to make a living - partly of said rich people.


"Rich people" are far more likely to have their own chauffeur or use services like Addison Lee's "Premier Executive Car Service" which scoots you around in Mercedes E and S-Class executive cars with leather interiors and free wi-fi onboard.

If I was steenking rich, swivel-action business exec I'd certainly prefer one of them to a yapping cabbie.


http://www.addisonlee.com/passengers/premier-vip


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## SLK (Apr 16, 2012)

editor said:


> "Rich people" are far more likely to have their own chauffeur or use services like Addison Lee's "Premier Executive Car Service" which scoots you around in Mercedes E and S-Class executive cars with leather interiors and free wi-fi onboard.
> 
> If I was steenking rich, swivel-action business exec I'd certainly prefer one of them to a yapping cabbie.
> 
> ...


 
Agreed, but by definition you have to have cash to regularly use black cabs at what (I'm guessing) £3ish a mile


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## editor (Apr 16, 2012)

SLK said:


> Agreed, but by definition you have to have cash to regularly use black cabs at what (I'm guessing) £3ish a mile


I've used black cabs a few times when I've been stuck somewhere.


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## Pickman's model (Apr 16, 2012)

SLK said:


> Agreed, but by definition you have to have cash to regularly use black cabs at what (I'm guessing) £3ish a mile


and not only cash but plenty of it given the rate the fare rises.


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## peterkro (Apr 16, 2012)

So have I,about three times in thirty five years.


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## SLK (Apr 16, 2012)

SLK said:


> Thanks for the reference. My daughter being transferred from Kings in Camberwell to Queens in Romford is an example of that.
> That's not a good example though. She was 3 weeks old and had a 40% chance of survival, and was operated on at 1 day old. But she's included in your category. And of course that's exactly the vehicle that took her, non urgently. Mum went with her. I sat in traffic shitting myself. Perhaps "non-urgent" needs redefining. She wasn't urgent. But she was, if you see what I mean.


 
Also, I'm not challenging that she was urgent. She wasn't. But she is not the same as a case of a disabled person in a taxi. She needed haste despite not being an emergency.


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## Pickman's model (Apr 16, 2012)

story in the guardian http://www.guardian.co.uk/global/2012/apr/16/minicab-tory-donor


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## SLK (Apr 16, 2012)

editor said:


> I've used black cabs a few times when I've been stuck somewhere.


 
Me too, or when feeling flush, lazy or lost.


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## Pickman's model (Apr 16, 2012)

SLK said:


> Me too, or when feeling flush, lazy or lost.


or dazed and confused


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## SLK (Apr 16, 2012)

Am I right in thinking that when Livingstone came in (not GLA - I'm not that old) he did a deal with black cabs that they double the distance they have to agree to take people (it was 6 miles and it became 12) and the compromise was that they hiked the rates. I don't think it was quite double, but it was close?


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## Brixton Hatter (Apr 17, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> story in the guardian http://www.guardian.co.uk/global/2012/apr/16/minicab-tory-donor


Yeah...no surprises that dodgy geezer has been in to number 10 and the Dept for transport touting for business.

There's also a story in the mirror: http://m.mirror.co.uk/article?id=797146/


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## Brixton Hatter (Apr 17, 2012)

SLK said:


> Am I right in thinking that when Livingstone came in (not GLA - I'm not that old) he did a deal with black cabs that they double the distance they have to agree to take people (it was 6 miles and it became 12) and the compromise was that they hiked the rates. I don't think it was quite double, but it was close?


That sounds familiar. The prices/tariff are here: http://www.tfl.gov.uk/gettingaround/taxisandminicabs/taxis/taxifares/4870.aspx 

I was slightly shocked to see that the price goes UP the further you go, not down. There's also confirmation on this page showing that a driver has to take you up to 12 miles or a journey of up to one hour if the destination is in greater London. http://www.tfl.gov.uk/gettingaround/taxisandminicabs/taxis/1140.aspx (That would be one expensive journey though.)


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## Mr Smin (Apr 17, 2012)

We live in the database state which makes all this much easier. If you are in a cab (with tracking) and your journey begins and/or ends at a medical or care facility of any kind, the driver can use bus lanes (we should be re-branding them as priority lanes) safe in the knowledge that not ticket will be issued because we will deem it a priority journey.
Well this seemed OK then I realised that some people get a lift rather than in a cab and it all got complicated.


----------



## Boycey (Apr 17, 2012)

addy lee have always hated cyclists, it wasn't until their acquisition of anderson young (or MY despatch as they were called by then ) when they basically inherited a pushbike circuit that they had any pedal power whatsoever. tbf they are now one of the most fair employers of couriers but the one time i met john griffin i realised i could never ride another foot for them. an utter utter bastard.


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## Boycey (Apr 17, 2012)

kittyP said:


> So most folks getting from A-B around London use black cabs.
> I would think it is mainly middle class bigger earners that use them over all tbh.


 
i don't use them regularly but there are times when nothing else will do (bicycles, heavy luggage etc). my living expenses are very low but my earnings are a long way below the taxable level.


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## London_Calling (Apr 17, 2012)

What's the argument for black cabs using bus lanes?


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## joustmaster (Apr 17, 2012)

London_Calling said:


> What's the argument for black cabs using bus lanes?


i've always thought that it was probably something to do with them reducing the amount of cars on the road so they can have benefit of the lanes.
but that doesn't really sound right


----------



## London_Calling (Apr 17, 2012)

It certainly advantages those with higher disposable income, and it makes life harder for busses.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Apr 17, 2012)

London_Calling said:


> What's the argument for black cabs using bus lanes?


 
There is an argument (possibly less valid in central London than in places with less comprehensive bus networks) that black cabs form part (albeit a more expensive one) of the public transport mix, and that they are more space-friendly than private cars since they don't require so much space to be given over to car parking.  Also, when they were first allowed in bus lanes, few if any of London's buses were wheelchair accessible, so they provided one of the few means of transport open to wheelchair users (via taxicard scheme) - most private hire vehicles are still standard car / MPV types and not wheelchair accessible.

I'm not convinced that, in general, black cabs using bus lanes causes that much of a problem for buses - if they are allowed into bus lanes to pick up and set down passengers, then taxis actually driving in bus lanes isn't usually a problem.

What is a pain in the arse for bus drivers is slow cyclists - especially the damn silly cycle taxi thingies, particularly when the 'driver' is shagged out towards the end of a day and his load is two enormous american tourists...


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## joustmaster (Apr 17, 2012)

London_Calling said:


> It certainly advantages those with higher disposable income, and it makes life harder for busses.


we do live in a country where you pay more to get better things


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## London_Calling (Apr 17, 2012)

The point here is you can't have one without disadvataging the other.


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## teuchter (Apr 17, 2012)

editor said:


> And here's a pic of a vehicle marked 'ambulance' being used for non urgent transport:
> 
> View attachment 18238


 

Whether it's urgent or non-urgent isn't the point - an ambulance is a vehicle that transports people to or from a place of treatment.

If someone disabled is using a taxi to head to a night out or get to a train station, they are not being taken to a place of treatment.

I don't find it hard to understand why people might be a bit offended by someone saying their taxi is effectively an "ambulance". The implication of that is that whenever they are travelling they are being shipped around between their constant episodes of medical attention. Instead of just going about their daily business like anyone else.


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## weepiper (Apr 17, 2012)

John Griffin wants taking down a peg or two.

http://politicalscrapbook.net/2012/04/john-griffin-politicians-are-housewives/


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## editor (Apr 17, 2012)

teuchter said:


> I don't find it hard to understand why people might be a bit offended by someone saying their taxi is effectively an "ambulance". The implication of that is that whenever they are travelling they are being shipped around between their constant episodes of medical attention. Instead of just going about their daily business like anyone else.


Great to see you predictably still trying to stir it up and have a pop, but I think everyone else has moved on now, thanks.


----------



## Brixton Hatter (Apr 17, 2012)

weepiper said:


> John Griffin wants taking down a peg or two.
> 
> http://politicalscrapbook.net/2012/04/john-griffin-politicians-are-housewives/


He does sound like a proper wanker but he's got a point that business runs the country. Most politicians are just businessmen/women moonlighting for a little bit to improve their future earnings.


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## sim667 (Apr 17, 2012)

How about only letting buses use buslanes? thats a novel idea 

(and bicycles, you cant really do much about that as they're not registered)


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## scifisam (Apr 17, 2012)

Boycey said:


> i don't use them regularly but there are times when nothing else will do (bicycles, heavy luggage etc). my living expenses are very low but my earnings are a long way below the taxable level.


 
I also sometimes get the, at night rather than multiple nightbuses, or when there are four or five of us travelling (black cabs can work out pretty cheap then). I don't find them any more expensive than minicabs.


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## Cerv (Apr 18, 2012)

sim667 said:


> How about only letting buses use buslanes? thats a novel idea
> 
> (and bicycles, you cant really do much about that as they're not registered)


How about deciding who is/isn't allowed in the lanes based on how it actually effects the safe and efficient flow of transport around the city rather than obsessing over a name that's really just a shorthand?

Dunno if black cabs should actually be allowed under this criteria. Are there any good studies people know about?


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## sim667 (Apr 18, 2012)

Cerv said:


> How about deciding who is/isn't allowed in the lanes based on how it actually effects the safe and efficient flow of transport around the city rather than obsessing over a name that's really just a shorthand?
> 
> Dunno if black cabs should actually be allowed under this criteria. Are there any good studies people know about?



Only things run by tfl and cyclists I would say


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## Boycey (Apr 20, 2012)

http://road.cc/content/news/56999-addison-lee-chairman-airs-his-opinion-london-cyclist-deaths



> _“There has, as we all know, been a tremendous upsurge in cycling and cycling shops. This summer the roads will be thick with bicycles. These cyclists are throwing themselves onto some of the most congested spaces in the world. They leap onto a vehicle which offers them no protection except a padded plastic hat.​__“Should a motorist fail to observe a granny wobbling to avoid a pothole or a rain drain, then he is guilty of failing to anticipate that this was somebody on her maiden voyage into the abyss. The fact is he just didn’t see her and however cautious, caring or alert he is, the influx of beginner cyclists is going to lead to an overall increase in accidents involving cyclists._​


​ 
Actually speechless.


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## gentlegreen (Apr 20, 2012)

The cunt wants strapping to a Raleigh Shopper for the next 12 months.

The next bit says it all :-




> _“The rest of us occupying this roadspace have had to undergo extensive training. We are sitting inside a protected space with impact bars and air bags and paying extortionate amounts of taxes on our vehicle purchase, parking, servicing, insurance and road tax._
> _“It is time for us to say to cyclists, ‘You want to join our gang, get trained and pay up’.”_


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## editor (Apr 20, 2012)

The man's a total self-serving rich Toryboy cunt.  Cyclists are dying on the streets and this twat doesn't give a fuck.


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## gentlegreen (Apr 20, 2012)

As someone pointed out on another forum, his fleet includes a shed-load of VED-exempt Priuses ...


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## Teaboy (Apr 20, 2012)

London_Calling said:


> What's the argument for black cabs using bus lanes?


 
The theory goes that as black cabs are often flagged down it makes more sense for them to be kerbside already as opposed to constantly having to veer into the bus lane.  I can see this argument to an extent as it probably helps to prevent collisions with buses and also keeps the main lanes flowing a bit more.  Whether its any safer for those on bikes is less clear.

One thing that is clear is that minicabs have no business being there and addison lee can go jump.


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## gentlegreen (Apr 20, 2012)

I keep thinking some witty person could do something creative with Poe's "Annabel Lee"
http://www.poemhunter.com/poem/annabel-lee/


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## Mrs Magpie (Apr 20, 2012)

So one minute he's saying his cabs should be allowed to go into bus lanes and the next he's saying if they kill cyclists in bus lanes it's not their fault because it might be a wobbling granny cyclist? Thinking things through isn't really his forte is it?


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## Maggot (Apr 20, 2012)

What a cock that John Griffin is. His argument ignores the fact that large numbers of London cyclists are also car owners.


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## Mrs Magpie (Apr 20, 2012)

....and could well be procuring account cabs for their companies too. Like I say, thinking things through really isn't his forte.


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## TopCat (Apr 20, 2012)

I worked for Addison Lee for years and they were the fairest company in London to work for. John Griffin puts his money where his big mouth is certainly. Since all Private Hire vehicles are licensed now and are driven by licensed drivers why not let them use bus lanes? The main reason is the utter cunts in the LTDA who DO intimidate the denzions of TFL and hate all private Hire vehicles with a disturbed passion. 

The reason Addison Lee are doing so well (3500 wholly owned cars on the road and no debt) is because of a demonic drive for perfect customer service. I learned a huge amount working for them. To dismiss them as some sort of knee jerk bunch of Tory supporting shysters is piss poor and very shallow. . .


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## Mrs Magpie (Apr 20, 2012)

@ TopCat
I'm just dismissing him as someone who doesn't think it through. I mean really, following up his using bus lanes pronouncement with a column saying if cyclists get killed it's their own fault? That's just the mark of someone, despite his business nous in other areas, really marks himself out as someone with piss-poor thinking skills, whatever his politics.


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## TitanSound (Apr 20, 2012)

TopCat said:


> The reason Addison Lee are doing so well (3500 wholly owned cars on the road and no debt) is because of a demonic drive for perfect customer service.


 
I'd have agreed with you a year ago. But recently they've been terrible. They used to always be early or bang on time but nowadays they are always late when I've booked them. The last instance, a friend of mine really needed to borrow my mixing desk. I've sent it via Addy Lee before with no problems, this time they were 45 minutes late after two phone calls chasing them.


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## toggle (Apr 20, 2012)

shame there's no 'demonic drive' for good driving skills, and there apparently isn't when the chairman of the company is saying his drivers aren't capable or alert enough to aviod hitting other road users and suggests that other road users need training so his poor ikkle drivers don't hit them


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## TopCat (Apr 20, 2012)

TitanSound said:


> I'd have agreed with you a year ago. But recently they've been terrible. They used to always be early or bang on time but nowadays they are always late when I've booked them. The last instance, a friend of mine really needed to borrow my mixing desk. I've sent it via Addy Lee before with no problems, this time they were 45 minutes late after two phone calls chasing them.


They prioritise customers according to the amount they spend. Cash customers get the least priority and the likes of Deutsche Bank who spend Millions a year get the highest.


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## Teaboy (Apr 20, 2012)

TopCat said:


> I worked for Addison Lee for years and they were the fairest company in London to work for. John Griffin puts his money where his big mouth is certainly. Since all Private Hire vehicles are licensed now and are driven by licensed drivers why not let them use bus lanes? The main reason is the utter cunts in the LTDA who DO intimidate the denzions of TFL and hate all private Hire vehicles with a disturbed passion.
> 
> The reason Addison Lee are doing so well (3500 wholly owned cars on the road and no debt) is because of a demonic drive for perfect customer service. I learned a huge amount working for them. To dismiss them as some sort of knee jerk bunch of Tory supporting shysters is piss poor and very shallow. . .


 
This is a really odd post.  Of all the companies based in London they are the fairest?  Eh?  Last time I checked there were quite a few companies based in London.

How many thousands of mini-cabs are on the road in London?  To let them all use the bus lane is quite simply so bonkers as to not merit further discussion.  There may be a discussion to have regarding black cabs use of bus lanes.


----------



## Teaboy (Apr 20, 2012)

TopCat said:


> They prioritise customers according to the amount they spend. Cash customers get the least priority and the likes of Deutsche Bank who spend Millions a year get the highest.


 
Ah.  I get it.


----------



## TopCat (Apr 20, 2012)

Mrs Magpie said:


> @ TopCat
> I'm just dismissing him as someone who doesn't think it through. I mean really, following up his using bus lanes pronouncement with a column saying if cyclists get killed it's their own fault? That's just the mark of someone, despite his business nous in other areas, really marks himself out as someone with piss-poor thinking skills, whatever his politics.


His comments in that column seem more about the reality that cycling in London is inherently dangerous. Given the large numbers of inexperienced cyclists taking to the roads, it's no wonder accidents and crashes are going up. I can't see how you can read that column and think he does not care about cyclists getting killed.


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Apr 20, 2012)

TopCat said:


> They prioritise customers according to the amount they spend. Cash customers get the least priority and the likes of Deutsche Bank who spend Millions a year get the highest.


That to me doesn't make long-term business sense. It may well be that a cash customer who might, at work, be in a position to recommend a firm to be their account cabs, will pass them over for another firm who has given them good service.


----------



## TopCat (Apr 20, 2012)

Teaboy said:


> This is a really odd post. Of all the companies based in London they are the fairest? Eh? Last time I checked there were quite a few companies based in London.
> 
> How many thousands of mini-cabs are on the road in London? To let them all use the bus lane is quite simply so bonkers as to not merit further discussion. There may be a discussion to have regarding black cabs use of bus lanes.


Private Hire vehicles are a part of public transport so why not let them use the bus lanes?


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## TopCat (Apr 20, 2012)

Mrs Magpie said:


> That to me doesn't make long-term business sense. It may well be that a cash customer who might, at work, be in a position to recommend a firm to be their account cabs, will pass them over for another firm who has given them good service.


They profits were up by 67% last year. They are the most successful Private Hire company in Europe.


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## Mrs Magpie (Apr 20, 2012)

TopCat said:


> Private Hire vehicles are a part of public transport so why not let them use the bus lanes?


Because it's not legal to hail them from the kerb, so they don't need to use bus lanes.


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## toggle (Apr 20, 2012)

TopCat said:


> His comments in that column seem more about the reality that cycling in London is inherently dangerous. Given the large numbers of inexperienced cyclists taking to the roads, it's no wonder accidents and crashes are going up. I can't see how you can read that column and think he does not care about cyclists getting killed.


 
he comes accross as someone that only cares that they are getting in his way and then comes out with the same tired old road tax bollocks.


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Apr 20, 2012)

TopCat said:


> His comments in that column seem more about the reality that cycling in London is inherently dangerous. Given the large numbers of inexperienced cyclists taking to the roads, it's no wonder accidents and crashes are going up. I can't see how you can read that column and think he does not care about cyclists getting killed.


I'm not saying he says he doesn't care, he's saying they have only themselves to blame.


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Apr 20, 2012)

....and it's not just novice cyclists who get killed and injured, by any means.


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## TopCat (Apr 20, 2012)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Because it's not legal to hail them from the kerb, so they don't need to use bus lanes.


With the huge number of bus lanes in London, an inability to pick up and drop off in bus lanes causes huge inconveniences for Londoners. Addy lee do 800 plus jobs _an hour._


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## Teaboy (Apr 20, 2012)

I have become a bit annoyed with mini cabs of late, it seems that the drivers cannot even operate their sat navs let alone know there way around the area they supposdly work in.


----------



## TitanSound (Apr 20, 2012)

TopCat said:


> They prioritise customers according to the amount they spend. Cash customers get the least priority and the likes of Deutsche Bank who spend Millions a year get the highest.


 
They can go fuck themselves then. I've spent a small fortune over the years using them to ferry band equipment about for gigs.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 20, 2012)

Mrs Magpie said:


> ....and it's not just novice cyclists who get killed and injured, by any means.


No it isn't. And I'd like to see some figures to back up any assertion that novice cyclists are significantly more at risk. Otherwise, that column is just an empty windbag spouting off about one of his pet prejudices. Some drivers don't think cyclists should be allowed on the roads at all, that they are an affront. He comes across like that.


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## London_Calling (Apr 20, 2012)

Teaboy said:


> The theory goes that as black cabs are often flagged down it makes more sense for them to be kerbside already as opposed to constantly having to veer into the bus lane. I can see this argument to an extent as it probably helps to prevent collisions with buses and also keeps the main lanes flowing a bit more. Whether its any safer for those on bikes is less clear.
> 
> One thing that is clear is that minicabs have no business being there and addison lee can go jump.


In relation to black cabs, I can accept that as far as it goes - picking up and dropping off. The logic of their preferential treatement beyond that still escapes me.


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## spliff (Apr 20, 2012)

London_Calling said:


> In relation to black cabs, I can accept that as far as it goes - picking up and dropping off. The logic of their preferential treatement beyond that still escapes me.


Because they are licensed, they've done the knowledge, they haven't just turfed up with a sat-nav.


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## London_Calling (Apr 20, 2012)

What's that got to do with bus lanes?


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## scifisam (Apr 20, 2012)

TopCat said:


> With the huge number of bus lanes in London, an inability to pick up and drop off in bus lanes causes huge inconveniences for Londoners. *Addy lee do 800 plus jobs an hour.*


 
That's a pretty good reason for them not to use bus lanes - there'd be no room for the buses.

Black cab drivers require an awful lot more training and licencing; I don't mind them being in bus lanes, but with a load of minicab drivers I would feel a lot less safe. Especially since the company's owner thinks that it's too much to expect for his drivers to even _see_ cyclists - he actually said his drivers wouldn't be able to see someone who was wobbling to avoid a pothole, as if wobbling makes someone invisible.


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## marty21 (Apr 20, 2012)

I'd never heard of them before he told his drivers to break the law - so he has got a lot of free publicity but I think that will backfire on him


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## Boycey (Apr 20, 2012)

there seems to be a growing campaign to boycott them through the cycle media. not sure how far it will go, with road cycling being "the new golf" to many in the city it could go a long way. if it does get to the point where they are actually losing revenue it'd be interesting to see what sort of apology JG would make, if any.


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## Ms Ordinary (Apr 20, 2012)

TopCat said:


> I worked for Addison Lee for years and they were the fairest company in London to work for. John Griffin puts his money where his big mouth is certainly. Since all Private Hire vehicles are licensed now and are driven by licensed drivers why not let them use bus lanes? The main reason is the utter cunts in the LTDA who DO intimidate the denzions of TFL and hate all private Hire vehicles with a disturbed passion.
> 
> The reason Addison Lee are doing so well (3500 wholly owned cars on the road and no debt) is because of a demonic drive for perfect customer service. I learned a huge amount working for them. To dismiss them as some sort of knee jerk bunch of Tory supporting shysters is piss poor and very shallow. . .


 
Did you work for them as a driver?

I'm curious now to know if what the drivers commenting below say about bogus self-employment is true, or are they just whinging?  If it is true, that might explain why the company is doing so well.



Ms Ordinary said:


> Addison Lee rip off their drivers as well, according to this investigation
> Or is that old news?


 
(I don't know anything much about Addison Lee btw, have had them recommended to me & used them now & again & just found the link when I was googling them to recommend to a friend...)


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## gentlegreen (Apr 20, 2012)

> Cyclists in London plan to stage a ‘Die-In’ on the evening of next Monday 23 April outside the Euston head office of minicab firm Addison Lee in protest at the company chairman telling his drivers to break the law by driving in bus lanes, as well anti-cyclist comments he made in a column in the company magazine.


 
http://road.cc/content/news/57006-london-cyclist-plan-addison-lee-die


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## weepiper (Apr 20, 2012)

TopCat said:


> His comments in that column seem more about the reality that cycling in London is inherently dangerous. Given the large numbers of inexperienced cyclists taking to the roads, it's no wonder accidents and crashes are going up. I can't see how you can read that column and think he does not care about cyclists getting killed.


 
His point is bollocks. I can think of several recent fatal accidents involving experienced cyclists of many years' riding. This one in Edinburgh just at the start of this year for example (he was forcefully overtaken by a skip lorry too close and had to swerve to avoid being knocked off, sadly he clipped a parked car instead and died from his injuries)


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## fredfelt (Apr 20, 2012)

TopCat said:


> His comments in that column seem more about the reality that cycling in London is inherently dangerous. Given the large numbers of inexperienced cyclists taking to the roads, it's no wonder accidents and crashes are going up. I can't see how you can read that column and think he does not care about cyclists getting killed.


 
Overall accidents and crashes involving cyclists are going up in London. But when you take into account the increase in the number of cyclists I thought it's actually getting safer.

AL's legal argument is along the lines of that there's unfair discrimination as black cab drivers can use bus lanes. If that holds then perhaps all cabs should be removed from using bus lanes.


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## FridgeMagnet (Apr 20, 2012)

Ms Ordinary said:


> Did you work for them as a driver?
> 
> I'm curious now to know if what the drivers commenting below say about bogus self-employment is true, or are they just whinging?  If it is true, that might explain why the company is doing so well.
> 
> ...


Even that article says


> In theory, a driver can take a week off to work elsewhere but *the reality is that Addison Lee is as good as it gets*. Cabbies working for other firms often learn the hard way they've no right to the minimum wage.


which doesn't of course mean they're some sort of incredible employers, but wouldn't contradict TC saying "they were the fairest company in London to work for".


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## TopCat (Apr 21, 2012)

I put together a consortium of private hire fleets and london taxis ten years ago with the intention of taking the Taxicard contract off of ComCab. When the cars are dropping off people with mobility isues, should not all the modes.private hire and taxi be able to drop off customers at their destinations without the fear of being fined? The issue of hailing is a distraction.

Can I add that John Griffin is also a very funny guy with a lot of integrity?


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## Boycey (Apr 21, 2012)

TopCat said:


> Can I add that John Griffin is also a very funny guy with a lot of integrity?


 
you're entitled to your opinion on that, from my dealings with him i would probably crack a grin if he went under bus tomorrow.


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## grit (Apr 21, 2012)

I always presumed taxis could use the bus lane in London. Its fucking madness you dont allow that.


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## Boycey (Apr 21, 2012)

LFGSS on the addy lee offensive: http://www.lfgss.com/thread84280.html


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## joustmaster (Apr 21, 2012)

grit said:


> I always presumed taxis could use the bus lane in London. Its fucking madness you dont allow that.


they can
minicabs can't


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## grit (Apr 21, 2012)

joustmaster said:


> they can
> minicabs can't


 
Sorry, I would have expected it to extend mini cabs...


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## joustmaster (Apr 21, 2012)

grit said:


> Sorry, I would have expected it to extend mini cabs...


i cycle every day in london, and i hadn't really noticed it was only taxi's allowed in the bus lane. but thinking about it, if they let minicabs in as well, the bus lanes will be more full than the normal lanes


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## grit (Apr 21, 2012)

joustmaster said:


> i cycle every day in london, and i hadn't really noticed it was only taxi's allowed in the bus lane. but thinking about it, if they let minicabs in as well, t*he bus lanes will be more full than the normal lanes*


 
That doesn't sound right to be honest.


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## joustmaster (Apr 21, 2012)

grit said:


> That doesn't sound right to be honest.


no? maybe your right.
since this thread was posted i've been looking at the cars on the roads and most of it seems to be minicabs. at least on my commute


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## Boycey (Apr 21, 2012)

seeing as AL cabs are some of the most consistently badly piloted vehicles on the road after boris bikes (i don't think you'll find many central london professional road users disagreeing with that) i would be seriously worried about giving them entitlement to bus lanes.


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## ymu (Apr 21, 2012)

TopCat said:


> I put together a consortium of private hire fleets and london taxis ten years ago with the intention of taking the Taxicard contract off of ComCab. When the cars are dropping off people with mobility isues, should not all the modes.private hire and taxi be able to drop off customers at their destinations without the fear of being fined? The issue of hailing is a distraction.


I don't have any problem with cabs that are capable of taking wheelchairs being allowed to use bus lanes, as long as the savings for the company were passed onto the customers. I don't see why the entire fleet should be advantaged by an argument which only applies to a very small part of their business.

An alternative would be something like a combination of the blue badge scheme and the congestion charge, monitored by the existing ANPR cameras. If the passenger is entitled to use the bus lane, the cabbie can use them.


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## editor (Apr 21, 2012)

Good piece in the Guardian:


> The article soon generated a large amount of Twitter traffic, with many pointing out that no vehicles pay "road tax". Vehicle excise duty is instead based on vehicle emissions, meaning bikes would be zero-rated even if made liable for it.
> Sixteen cyclists died in London in 2011, but there is little evidence to back up Griffin's idea that poor cycling is mainly to blame. Department for Transport figures from 2009 showed that police deemed drivers solely responsible in up to 75% of accidents involving cyclists UK-wide.
> 
> Mike Cavenett, of the London Cycling Campaign, called Griffin's comments "beyond belief". He said: "Given the five people who have died on bikes in London this year, it's sickening to read an article by a company chairman which basically encourages conflict on the roads."
> ...


 
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/apr/20/addison-lee-minicab-boss-cyclists


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## gentlegreen (Apr 21, 2012)

Any word from the cycling Tory mayor yet ?


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## gentlegreen (Apr 21, 2012)

> *London Mayor Boris Johnson condemns Addison Lee boss’s anti-cyclist outburst*
> 
> Saturday, April 21, 2012
> 1:13 PM
> ...


 
http://www.london24.com/news/politi...on_lee_boss_s_anti_cyclist_outburst_1_1355907


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## Cerv (Apr 21, 2012)

The hypothecated road fund was abolished in 1936. Coming up on one hundred years and I bet idiots will still be moaning about their imaginary tax and its bizarre sense of entitlement then.


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## gentlegreen (Apr 21, 2012)




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## Mrs Magpie (Apr 22, 2012)

....and David Mitchell puts in a highly entertaining twopenn'oth 
*Give a minicab man a few column inches and he'll take a whole bus lane*

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/apr/22/minicab-addison-lee-griffin-mitchell


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## Alo Licentia! (Apr 22, 2012)

Mrs Magpie said:


> ....and David Mitchell puts in a highly entertaining twopenn'oth
> *Give a minicab man a few column inches and he'll take a whole bus lane*
> 
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/apr/22/minicab-addison-lee-griffin-mitchell


That's the funniest, cleverist thing I've read all week.



> At last he's found a big enough fan to throw shit at.


and


> This is classic Griffin. A more oleaginous arguer might have conjured up an unsympathetic cyclist: a cocky shades-wearing courier, weaving between cars while listening to his iPod, or a self-promoting politician surrounded by obliging paps and tailed by his ministerial car. But not Griffin – he's happy to go straight for the granny: the stupid, myopic, shaky old biddy, wobbling around the road in the way of minicabs, who doesn't even have the goodness to look where she's going, get a driving licence or buy a fully taxed Lamborghini.


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## sim667 (Apr 23, 2012)

It does seem he was the peoples hero on the first page, then by page 5 where his comments about cyclists have been brought up he's been deemed a toryboy cunt. 

Thats only from a quick skimread of the thread though


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## Mrs Magpie (Apr 23, 2012)

sim667 said:


> It does seem he was the peoples hero on the first page


?????? Are you sure you read the first page?


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## sim667 (Apr 23, 2012)

Mrs Magpie said:


> ?????? Are you sure you read the first page?


 
Yep you're right. I swear there were a couple of posts loving him though!


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## fjydj (Apr 23, 2012)

gentlegreen said:


> http://road.cc/content/news/57006-london-cyclist-plan-addison-lee-die


 
At the moment 470 people said they'll be going on facebook page and nearly 200 maybes for tonights flash protest. 

6pm tonight, at 35-37 William Road, NW1 3ER

just north of Euston Road and Tottenham Court Road


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## ymu (Apr 23, 2012)

sim667 said:


> Yep you're right. I swear there were a couple of posts loving him though!


Urban posters in 'express range of views' shock.

Not on the first page though. You might have read the thread backwards and come across TopCat's belated love-in for the cunt first?


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## scifisam (Apr 23, 2012)

sim667 said:


> It does seem he was the peoples hero on the first page, then by page 5 where his comments about cyclists have been brought up he's been deemed a toryboy cunt.
> 
> Thats only from a quick skimread of the thread though


 
I think his comments about cyclists just might have come up before the fifth page...


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## fredfelt (Apr 23, 2012)

Looks like a protest has been organised for today in response to his cyclist victim blaming outburst



> PRESS RELEASE from Bikes Alive - Sunday 22 April 2012
> 
> CYCLISTS AND CABBIES TO BESIEGE HQ OF ROGUE MINICAB BOSS
> 
> ...


 
http://bikesalive.wordpress.com/press-releases/


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## King Biscuit Time (Apr 23, 2012)

Excellent response to the usual 'Road Tax Bollocks' by someone over at the MSE forums


Here


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## fredfelt (Apr 23, 2012)

King Biscuit Time said:


> Excellent response to the usual 'Road Tax Bollocks' by someone over at the MSE forums
> 
> 
> Here


 
That's actually quite good!


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## pesh (Apr 23, 2012)

he was just on London Tonight. i didn't have the sound up and my first thoughts were Syd Little must be making a comeback.


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## gentlegreen (Apr 23, 2012)




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## Struwwelpeter (Apr 23, 2012)

This could get interesting - AL taxis getting held up by cyclists and black cabs that mysteriously slow down whenever they use a bus lane...

As for black cabs - in my experience they have improved their driving, if not their expounding of their political views over the years.  I do regard them as part of London's public transport infrastructure.  I usually cycle, or use bus or tube.  If I've got heavy luggage or am in a group of a few people to share the fare, then a cab is often the best option.  Although they are expensive, the alternatives are often worse.


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## GarfieldLeChat (Apr 23, 2012)

All of the near accidents I've ever had in London are caused by Addison Lee they teach their drivers to be shit I'm sure...


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## claphamboy (Apr 23, 2012)

gentlegreen said:


>




Nice bit of free advertising for the cunt.


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## gentlegreen (Apr 23, 2012)

Yep, sadly the Daily Fail cager / cab customer is in the majority.
Thick as shit when you read the comments ... I suppose the idiot motorist likes nothing more than moral vindication for driving without a care for anyone else ... a few decades ago they would be protesting about not being able to drive home from the pub.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...cyclists-demanding-pay-road-tax.html#comments

I would be fascinated to find out the truth about the majority of cyclists and how many of them have full driving licenses - though I'm not sure that should be held up as proof of anything given the driving we encounter on a daily basis. (and a lot of the comments)


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## ExtraRefined (Apr 23, 2012)

It was a pretty good turnout given the weather. I've done something like 40 miles in the rain today now.


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## gentlegreen (Apr 25, 2012)




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## Boycey (Apr 25, 2012)

gentlegreen said:


>




eh?


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## Boycey (Apr 25, 2012)

oh and jon griffin is still an utter utter bastard but riding home this morning i saw 2 of their pushies (who they actually deny the existence of, which is bizarre in itself) out and about using AL branded PAC design bags which was encouraging.


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## BigTom (Apr 25, 2012)

gentlegreen said:


> Yep, sadly the Daily Fail cager / cab customer is in the majority.
> Thick as shit when you read the comments ... I suppose the idiot motorist likes nothing more than moral vindication for driving without a care for anyone else ... a few decades ago they would be protesting about not being able to drive home from the pub.
> 
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...cyclists-demanding-pay-road-tax.html#comments
> ...


 

http://www.publications.parliament..../cm110509/text/110509w0001.htm#11050915000389



> Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what his estimate is of the proportion of cyclists that own cars. [53988]
> 
> Norman Baker: Some 83% of the cyclists participating in the National Travel Survey in 2008 and 2009 were resident in a household with access to a car or van.
> 
> The equivalent overall figure for all survey respondents in Great Britain was 82%.


 
This doesn't actually answer your question unfortunately, because it's resident in a household so someone who doesn't have a licence but lives with someone who does would be counted here. From this we can say that at a minimum, 17% of cyclists do not have a driving licence. I don't know if this survey included under-17s. edit: got this wrong see below.


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## toggle (Apr 25, 2012)

BigTom said:


> From this we can say that at a minimum, 17% of cyclists do not have a driving licence..


 
no you can't.

the survey is on cyclists who live in a household that has a vehicle.

as you have stated, it tells you nothing about whether those cyclists who live in a household with a vehicle are a licenced driver, but it also tells you nothing about whether cyclists who do not have access to a vehicle hold a drivers licence.


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## BigTom (Apr 25, 2012)

toggle said:


> no you can't.
> 
> the survey is on cyclists who live in a household that has a vehicle.
> 
> as you have stated, it tells you nothing about whether those cyclists who live in a household with a vehicle are a licenced driver, but it also tells you nothing about whether cyclists who do not have access to a vehicle hold a drivers licence.


 
Yes, you are correct, I didn't think that through properly.


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## gentlegreen (Apr 25, 2012)

Boycey said:


> eh?


 
I simply thought it summed up the current situation - cyclists an cabbies on one side, minicabs on the other ...


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## Boycey (Apr 25, 2012)

gentlegreen said:


> I simply thought it summed up the current situation - cyclists an cabbies on one side, minicabs on the other ...


 
nah, no one sides with headcam toting recumbent riders*. 

*if the one exception to that is reading this then she knows i make an exception in her case


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## gentlegreen (Apr 25, 2012)

Peter Tatchell on Jeremy Vine earlier ..

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006wr3p

For the first time ever I wish he'd shut up -"I ride near the kerb", "helmets should be compulsory", physical kerbs to keep cyclists in "their lane" ...


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## ymu (Apr 25, 2012)

Everything we now know doesn't work.


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## Boycey (Apr 25, 2012)

gentlegreen said:


> Peter Tatchell on Jeremy Vine earlier ..
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006wr3p
> 
> For the first time ever I wish he'd shut up -*"I ride near the kerb", "helmets should be compulsory", physical kerbs to keep cyclists in "their lane"* ...


 
and he's part of the greens now???


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## TopCat (Apr 25, 2012)

Boycey said:


> seeing as AL cabs are some of the most consistently badly piloted vehicles on the road after boris bikes (i don't think you'll find many central london professional road users disagreeing with that) i would be seriously worried about giving them entitlement to bus lanes.


Worse than London Taxi's? Come on...


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## TopCat (Apr 25, 2012)

The die in was a bit daft. If you wanted to rock Griffin world a bit you need to target one of his top accounts and have a protest there. He may go a bit leery though!


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## Boycey (Apr 25, 2012)

TopCat said:


> Worse than London Taxi's? Come on...


 
way worse. there are some awful cabbies but consistently the worse vehicle on the road is an addy lee people carrier, talk to any current rider of any despatch firm (including AL when out of earshot of Griffin ).


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## TopCat (Apr 25, 2012)

Boycey said:


> way worse. there are some awful cabbies but consistently the worse vehicle on the road is an addy lee people carrier, talk to any current rider of any despatch firm (including AL when out of earshot of Griffin ).


It may be that they have mopped up the best of the drivers and have taken on lots of dregs.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Apr 25, 2012)

Boycey said:


> way worse. there are some awful cabbies but consistently the worse vehicle on the road is an addy lee people carrier, talk to any current rider of any despatch firm (including AL when out of earshot of Griffin ).


 
They're fucking shite to travel in too, even with sat nav they always get lost


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## bi0boy (Apr 26, 2012)

TfL fights back: "TfL’s High Court injunction prevents Addison Lee from instructing its drivers to use bus lanes"


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## TopCat (Apr 26, 2012)

bi0boy said:


> TfL fights back: "TfL’s High Court injunction prevents Addison Lee from instructing its drivers to use bus lanes"


Griffin never instructed any of his drivers to use bus lanes. he said if they did do so, and got fined, he would pay the fine.


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## snowy_again (Apr 26, 2012)

The larger corporate account holders are being encouraged to close their accounts already, mostly on the grounds that service level agreements between say Barclays (a company that heavily supports its staff to cycle to work) and AL have a terms in them saying that the provider shouldn't willingly or knowingly break the law. Which is what AL/Griffin are suggesting. 

As for TopCats point on whether they were instructed or not, here's some more detail from a newspaper article, with my bold emphasis:

*Transport for London has won a legal battle against taxi firm, Addison Lee, preventing its drivers from using the capital’s bus lanes.*

The row broke out after the firm’s chairman, John Griffin, instructed his drivers to ignore traffic management rules - a move TfL branded ‘irresponsible’.
But today’s High Court judgement prevents Addison Lee from instructing or encouraging its drivers to drive in London’s bus lanes. *The Court also declared the ‘indemnity’ the firm issued to its drivers on 14 April, which offered to pay fines and other costs if they used bus lanes was ‘void and unenforceable’.*
Leon Daniels, TfL’s Managing Director of Surface Transport, said: ‘The court felt compelled to grant an injunction because of the substantial risk of Addison Lee taking action that could result in the law being broken.
‘Bus lanes enable buses to move around the capital efficiently carrying more than six million passengers a day. We maintain that allowing tens of thousands of private hire vehicles to drive in bus lanes would impact on the reliability of our bus services, and risks inconveniencing our customers.’
A TfL statement added: ‘The interim injunction will remain in place until judicial review proceedings, on the issues of private hire in bus lanes, conclude.’

from here: http://www.localgov.co.uk/index.cfm?method=news.detail&id=105562


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## London_Calling (Apr 26, 2012)

So he's got a JR out of all this.


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## snowy_again (Apr 26, 2012)

Sorry that this next bit is on a inherently biased site; but it includes the more text from the High Court decision:

http://ipayroadtax.com/no-such-thin...on-lee-repair-the-relationship-with-cyclists/


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## Puddy_Tat (Apr 27, 2012)

on Grauniad front page




> Breaking news: Minicab company Addison Lee, which urged its drivers to use bus lanes, has lost its government contract. More details soon ...


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## London_Calling (Apr 27, 2012)

Was slightly amusing to see Jeremy Hunt climbing into an Addison Lee people carrier on the day JM gave evidence to Leveson.


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## T & P (Apr 27, 2012)

Puddy_Tat said:


> on Grauniad front page


 
 Full story http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/apr/27/addison-lee-loses-government-contract


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## Puddy_Tat (Apr 27, 2012)

not a great return for the £ 250,000 he bunged the conservative party.

oh dear.

how sad.

ha ha ha ha ha


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## Gingerman (Apr 27, 2012)

T & P said:


> Full story http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/apr/27/addison-lee-loses-government-contract


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## salem (May 3, 2012)

Puddy_Tat said:


> on Grauniad front page
> 
> Breaking news: Minicab company Addison Lee, which urged its drivers to use bus lanes, has lost its government contract. More details soon ...​


Even though I was defending them earlier in the thread and generally think they offer a good service, this did make me laugh - pretty big fail right there  

And good on the TORIES!!!1!1one!! for doing so.


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## ymu (May 3, 2012)

It's got fuck all to do with the Tories (apart from their cutting budgets and thus Whitehall's use of taxis), and the timing is a coincidence. I do hope the civil servants who dealt with it had a good giggle though.


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