# Curfew For Men



## Orang Utan (Mar 12, 2021)

I have seen this hashtagged on Twitter as a response to the murder of Sarah Everard. I think the idea is mainly being discussed rhetorically rather than as a potential thing, as it would probably be impossible to enforce universally but I can see how it might be possible in certain places - certain thoroughfares or areas of cities. Does anyone know if this has been tried anywhere?


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## eatmorecheese (Mar 12, 2021)

I think it was a rhetorical device by that Lib Dem peer to illustrate the perversity of asking women to be hyper vigilant (as if they aren't) and avoid going out, checking in etc.

This shit is global and I doubt any approaches (if there are any) had women predominantly making those decisions.

I've not done any research tbh, just sounding off.

ETA: Green peer


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## Orang Utan (Mar 12, 2021)

As Thora suggested on the other thread, it could just be limited to sex offenders - get em tagged so their opportunities to harm others is greatly reduced


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## AnnO'Neemus (Mar 12, 2021)

Not a curfew, as such, but iirc, they have women only train carriages in Japan, and in Mexico they have women only buses.


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## bimble (Mar 12, 2021)

I like imagining it, if there was say just one night a month when no men were out after 9pm, what would the cities look like, would the parks be full of women just hanging out, walking slow as they like.


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## Spymaster (Mar 12, 2021)

Some Green Party weirdo suggested it. 









						Peer suggests 6pm curfew for men after Sarah Everard disappearance
					

Baroness Jones receives ‘deluge of misogynistic emails and tweets’ following comments in House of Lords




					www.independent.co.uk


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## Shippou-Sensei (Mar 12, 2021)

I think a symbolic curfew might be an idea.  Make people (well men) really think about what the kind of restrictions people recommend to keep people safe  would feel like if the shoe was on the other foot as it were.
As an actual curfew. that's going to be a lot more difficult to do well.


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## bimble (Mar 12, 2021)

AnnO'Neemus said:


> Not a curfew, as such, but iirc, they have women only train carriages in Japan, and in Mexico they have women only buses.


Indian trains too, women’s carriages. Also (last year anyway) they have posters all over the train about sexual harassment and don’t do it.


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## ska invita (Mar 12, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Some Green Party weirdo suggested it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


how does it feel posting the same thing as Nigel Farage does in a tweet?


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## Poot (Mar 12, 2021)

Shippou-Sensei said:


> I think a symbolic curfew might be an idea.  Make people (well men) really think about what the kind of restrictions people recommend to keep people safe  would feel like if the shoe was on the other foot as it were.
> As an actual curfew. that's going to be a lot more difficult to do well.


You just know that during a symbolic 'curfew' the arseholes would come out in force, though.


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## Pickman's model (Mar 12, 2021)

The problem with this is people work and study all hours of the day. Waiters and chefs and paramedics and locksmiths and theatre staff and bus drivers etc etc. Men who study in the evening. It sounds a good idea until it comes into contact with reality.


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## Spymaster (Mar 12, 2021)

ska invita said:


> how does it feel posting the same thing as Nigel Farage does in a tweet?


Pah. A stopped clock etc ...


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## danny la rouge (Mar 12, 2021)

Shippou-Sensei said:


> I think a symbolic curfew might be an idea.  Make people (well men) really think about what the kind of restrictions people recommend to keep people safe  would feel like if the shoe was on the other foot as it were.


I quite like that, as it goes.


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## killer b (Mar 12, 2021)

AnnO'Neemus said:


> Not a curfew, as such, but iirc, they have women only train carriages in Japan, and in Mexico they have women only buses.


Corbyn got a strip torn off him when he floated something like this a few years ago iirc


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## Shippou-Sensei (Mar 12, 2021)

Poot said:


> You just know that during a symbolic 'curfew' the arseholes would come out in force, though.


That is true. Though I think in an actual curfew this would be true too.  just look at the anti maskers.


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## Orang Utan (Mar 12, 2021)

At the very least, we could light certain thoroughfares better. Locally, in Leeds, we have a ginnel that goes from an area with a lot of pubs to an area with a lot of student housing and there have been a large number of assaults.
it’s got this bad:


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## ska invita (Mar 12, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Pah. A stopped clock etc ...


no you're both wrong - she wasnt suggesting it, it was a rhetorical provocation
farage reposted it as fact, called her a loon, and she received a shit load of abuse as a result


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## Orang Utan (Mar 12, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> The problem with this is people work and study all hours of the day. Waiters and chefs and paramedics and locksmiths and theatre staff and bus drivers etc etc. Men who study in the evening. It sounds a good idea until it comes into contact with reality.


This is why I suggested it might work better confined to certain areas


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## Pickman's model (Mar 12, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> This is why I suggested it might work better confined to certain areas


I think you'd really struggle to find an area where it would work without becoming tokenistic


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## Plumdaff (Mar 12, 2021)

I don't agree at all with general curfews but feel that when certain crimes happen against women it would be a more logical and safer default to ask men to abide by a time and geographically limited curfew than to expect women to limit their behaviour because of male violence. It might also (you'd hope) possibly increase the urgency of the conversations and changes that need to be made to make everyone safer.


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## Orang Utan (Mar 12, 2021)

It has been tried before: 


			Redirect Notice


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## stethoscope (Mar 12, 2021)

AnnO'Neemus said:


> Not a curfew, as such, but iirc, they have women only train carriages in Japan, and in Mexico they have women only buses.



I think the issue I have with these, it that it stills feels to me like its regarding women as a 'problem to be managed' rather than targeting the behaviour of men and culture that leads to it, combined with that I suspect conviction rates are really low (need to read up on that).


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## HarmonyFlow (Mar 12, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> I have seen this hashtagged on Twitter as a response to the murder of Sarah Everard. I think the idea is mainly being discussed rhetorically rather than as a potential thing, as it would probably be impossible to enforce universally but I can see how it might be possible in certain places - certain thoroughfares or areas of cities. Does anyone know if this has been tried anywhere?



The Green Party’s Jenny Jones(a lot of time dedicated to Domestic Abuse/Intimate Partner Violence)wasn’t being rhetorical in her House of Commons speech at all, she meant and means everything that she has said.

Can what she envisages work?
I personally do not think so for many  many reasons
But, I do appreciate her for speaking up further against Gender Based Violence against women & girls.


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## ddraig (Mar 12, 2021)

First Minister of Wales got accused of calling for it too and piled on, what they said was that there was a range of options


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## Mumbles274 (Mar 12, 2021)

Something I have thought today. What if weapons were legal for women only. Maybe not guns, but incapacitating stun guns, somehow that could be only used by the owner. But imagine. If women had guns. How many men would be prowling for victims? 

I know this is a kind of silly idea, but it made me think


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## Poot (Mar 12, 2021)

Sorry but I can't help thinking that there are enough arseholes out there to make it dangerous to do this. Having seen first hand how angry some men get when they see a woman out for a run (yes really) like they take it as a personal affront, I don't think I'd feel any safer. In fact I think it would bring out the angry misogynists and there would be no good men to pad it out a bit. This is not an ideal situation.


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## cupid_stunt (Mar 12, 2021)

It's not a serious suggestion, if it was, it would be totally bonkers, off the fucking scale.

Jenny Jones has admitted it was just a flippant response to the police suggesting women stay home, you would have to been a complete loon to seriously suggest it might work even if it was just in some confined areas.


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## PaulOK (Mar 12, 2021)

I think it is a good idea but not really practical.  Also the idea of Men of Colour being told to stay inside by the Government is problematic to put it mildly. Also what about Gay and Trans men ?

It has triggered the Right so #CurfewForMen is well worth promoting as a tactic.


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## Orang Utan (Mar 12, 2021)

cupid_stunt said:


> It's not a serious suggestion, if it was, it would be totally bonkers, off the fucking scale.
> 
> Jenny Jones has admitted it was just a flippant response to the police suggesting women stay home, you would have to been a complete loon to seriously suggest it might work even if it was just in some confined areas.


I think even just talking about it at least raises awareness. Of course the long term answer is education, especially of boys. Though it takes a lot to change the culture too. We can’t just be telling boys and men about consent and that  they shouldn’t assault girls and women. A sea change is needed. My limited experience of working in education suggests that current provision is woeful or non existent


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## Plumdaff (Mar 12, 2021)

Why is it lunacy to ask men to stay home, when women are routinely advised to do so? It's not women raping and murdering other women, and women aren't assaulting and stabbing men outside pubs at closing time either.


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## Sue (Mar 12, 2021)

stethoscope said:


> I think the issue I have with these, it that it stills feels to me like its regarding women as a 'problem to be managed' rather than targeting the behaviour of men and culture that leads to it, combined with that I suspect conviction rates are really low (need to read up on that).


This absolutely. And no doubt if you travel in the non-women only carriage and something happens to you, it'll be all your own fault because you weren't all segregated away.


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## Sue (Mar 12, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> As Thora suggested on the other thread, it could just be limited to sex offenders - get em tagged so their opportunities to harm others is greatly reduced


An awful lot of men who've sexually assaulted or harassed women have never been convicted so 🤷‍♀️.


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## Orang Utan (Mar 12, 2021)

Sue said:


> An awful lot of men who've sexually assaulted or harassed women have never been convicted so 🤷‍♀️.


Of course, but it’s a start


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## Sue (Mar 12, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> Of course, but it’s a start


TBH, I don't think it would make much difference.


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## Puddy_Tat (Mar 12, 2021)

AnnO'Neemus said:


> Not a curfew, as such, but iirc, they have women only train carriages in Japan, and in Mexico they have women only buses.



at least some trains in the UK had women only compartments in to the 70s.



killer b said:


> Corbyn got a strip torn off him when he floated something like this a few years ago iirc



i'm not so sure that he floated it - i think the idea was put to him by a journalist, and he said it might be worth consulting on.  so that he could be criticised either for saying that, or for saying yes, or for saying no...


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## weepiper (Mar 12, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> The problem with this is people work and study all hours of the day. Waiters and chefs and paramedics and locksmiths and theatre staff and bus drivers etc etc. Men who study in the evening. It sounds a good idea until it comes into contact with reality.


It's a bit unfair to have a go at you for this, because I know you know, but all of these jobs and others are done by women, too. But still they tell us not to go out after dark for our own safety and implicitly that blames us when things like this horrible kidnapping happen.


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## Ax^ (Mar 12, 2021)

make it legal for a month please do

as a working a rotating shift the lates can be majorly annoying as company process is antiquated , our clients are gobshites

not taking anything away from no body middle child with 2 sisters, know guys can be twats


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## campanula (Mar 12, 2021)

A few years ago, my daughter and I were followed and verbally harassed by some loon (in a graveyard, no less).  We had to knock on a stranger's door  (the cemetary lodge) because we felt so threatened.  Our (cowardly) collie was no use either.While I often have some semi-offensive bladed  (gardening) tool on my person, in truth, I have no confidence in getting close enough to effectively use one, especially in a moment of fear and panic, Seemed a bit hit or miss (literally) so I sent off for some spray deterrents (Eve spray), I promptly lost mine so embarked on a lethal, home
-made one (tabasco, ground chillies and lemon juice). It keeps for ages in a little Jif squeezy bottle. I can't say I have much truck with curfews, for anyone really, and would sooner feel I was in a position to take some responsibility for my own safety, rather than relying on legal solutions (as if) or moral education for men. Feeling a bit protected, however delusional, made us feel more confident, competent and not giving off those fear pheromones which predators seem to be able to sense effortlessly.
I had a 'rape alarm, back in the 70s/80s...and had even less faith in that...but I don't really worry about repercussions for owning or even using what could be construed as a dangerous weapon because I am unconvinced that a court would convict a small, elderly woman of 'carrying a dangerous weapon.'..and I would certainly be prepared to test this out if such a situation ever arose where I felt I had to. As always, less dominant classes are being gulled if they wait for some  imaginary justice or fairness to be bestowed upon them by their oppressors. Just like any class struggle, I feel justice  (and safety) is something we have to take for ourselves...although I will concede that there are various ways to achieve this, but personally, I kinda like the feeling of having some agency myself.
 Back in the day (70s)I also recall a rise in women's self=defence classes (especially during the period when the Cambridge rapist was active).  Loads of Reclaim the Night marches. Feminism became (for me), a thing. Most of these classes were not concentrating on actual physical wrangling, but building up our own sense of being inviolate, using our voice, our wits and only as a last resort, using the physical force of the attacker. I honestly thought these initiatives were useful and would like to see these techniques being taught as part of PE at school and made available in our communities. The classes had value above simple self-protection, investing us with a definite sense of our own strengths and powers. Again, I realise that the onus is being put on women, to negotiate the tricky byways of patriarchal violence...but I think we also gain something quite essential - a refusal to be cast as the eternal victim and a feeling that we do not need to wait for men to make changes - we can do it for ourselves. This is very powerful for girls and women.
I do think the idea of 'curfew' has a lot of deep cultural resonance but would, inevitably, be mangled beyond any plausible use in the hands of the mediocrities and dullards who comprise the political classes...best avoided


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## ddraig (Mar 12, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> make it legal for a month please do
> 
> as a working a rotating shift the lates can be majorly annoying as company process is antiquated , our clients are twats


Shit post akin to some of the tweets on this


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## mojo pixy (Mar 12, 2021)

I stay home every day after about 6pm already because I'm the lone carer for an 8-yr-old child. All I'd have to say would be, _welcome to my world, brothers_.


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## Ax^ (Mar 12, 2021)

ddraig said:


> Shit post akin to some of the tweets on this



how so as i've edit my first post?


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## ddraig (Mar 12, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> how so as i've edit my first post?


Didn't see the edit


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## quimcunx (Mar 12, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> The problem with this is people work and study all hours of the day. Waiters and chefs and paramedics and locksmiths and theatre staff and bus drivers etc etc. Men who study in the evening. It sounds a good idea until it comes into contact with reality.





weepiper said:


> It's a bit unfair to have a go at you for this, because I know you know, but all of these jobs and others are done by women, too. But still they tell us not to go out after dark for our own safety and implicitly that blames us when things like this horrible kidnapping happen.



Excuse me gentleman, can I ask what you're doing out so late this evening?   You know there's a rapist on the loose?  You could be mistaken for him.  Oh, you've just finished your shift?  Maybe you should spend your wages on getting a taxi home? Or get the bus and ask your girlfriend to meet you at the bus stop? Stop you looking so suspicious.  I mean if you're going to wear a dark coloured jacket and a hoodie people are going to get ideas about you aren't they? You really shouldn't risk being out so late on your own. The roving vigilante groups might get you. Or you might be arrested and locked in a cell to protect the women of the neighbourhood while I see if your story checks out.


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## Teaboy (Mar 12, 2021)

We're in the middle of a curfew.  A stay at home order is in place.  It is illegal to leave your home without very good reason.  The most serious restrictions on basic freedom of movement people in this country have seen for generations. It hasn't stopped terrible things happening to people.  People who do heinous things are not going to be put off by curfews.


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## SheilaNaGig (Mar 12, 2021)

I went to  a women only Hole + Huggy Bear gig at Subterranean in 1993.

It was amazing. So liberating.




ska invita said:


> how does it feel posting the same thing as Nigel Farage does in a tweet?



Yeah but remember that he’s a “basically decently bloke”.
Apparently.




Pickman's model said:


> The problem with this is people work and study all hours of the day. Waiters and chefs and paramedics and locksmiths and theatre staff and bus drivers etc etc. Men who study in the evening. It sounds a good idea until it comes into contact with reality.



Apply this to the current situation. Women who are obliged to be out at all hours (carers bus drivers office cleaners nurses waiters bar staff late night shops women who study late theatre staff etc ) who are curtailed by their fears and the behaviour of men.

No point other than a reminder that plenty of women who are out late aren’t there for fun but for work.




weepiper said:


> It's a bit unfair to have a go at you for this, because I know you know, but all of these jobs and others are done by women, too. But still they tell us not to go out after dark for our own safety and implicitly that blames us when things like this horrible kidnapping happen.



Not to mention sex workers, who rely on (mostly) men being out and about for their income,  and safety too (if they’re to satisfy their pinp).




mojo pixy said:


> I stay home every day after about 6pm already because I'm the lone carer for an 8-yr-old child. All I'd have to say would be, _welcome to my world, brothers_.



Oh fuck off.


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## Raheem (Mar 12, 2021)

quimcunx said:


> Excuse me gentleman, can I ask what you're doing out so late this evening?   You know there's a rapist on the loose?  You could be mistaken for him.  Oh, you've just finished your shift?  Maybe you should spend your wages on getting a taxi home? Or get the bus and ask your girlfriend to meet you at the bus stop? Stop you looking so suspicious.  I mean if you're going to wear a dark coloured jacket and a hoodie people are going to get ideas about you aren't they? You really shouldn't risk being out so late on your own. The roving vigilante groups might get you. Or you might be arrested and locked in a cell to protect the women of the neighbourhood while I see if your story checks out.


Aren't most of the coppers going to be at home, though?


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## The39thStep (Mar 12, 2021)

Personally I think a lot of practical ideas could come out of consultations between Councils , Police , transport companies , residents and women’s groups about how cities , towns and other areas could be made safer for women at night . If just one city championed  this and implemented key measures it could really start a campaign that’s tangible,  deliverable and gets people behind it .


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## quimcunx (Mar 12, 2021)

Teaboy said:


> We're in the middle of a curfew.  A stay at home order is in place.  It is illegal to leave your home without very good reason.  The most serious restrictions on basic freedom of movement people in this country have seen for generations. It hasn't stopped terrible things happening to people.  People who do heinous things are not going to be put off by curfews.



And yet curfews keep getting suggested to women like they work. Maybe the #notallmen men would do more to stop the culture that allows violence towards women to flourish if it was them who had to abide by curfews if they don't want to be thought rapists.


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## SheilaNaGig (Mar 12, 2021)

SheilaNaGig said:


> I went to  a women only Hole + Huggy Bear gig at Subterranean in 1993.
> 
> It was amazing. So liberating.
> 
> ...




Sorry mojo pixy 
I’m not in the mood for joshing 
But you don’t get a free pass for being stuck indoors taking care of your kid.


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## Smokeandsteam (Mar 12, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Personally I think a lot of practical ideas could come out of consultations between Councils , Police , transport companies , residents and women’s groups about how cities , towns and other areas could be made safer for women at night . If just one city championed  this and implemented key measures it could really start a campaign that’s tangible,  deliverable and gets people behind it .



Spot on. And if that involves a curfew (even if largely symbolic and time limited) which can be made to work practically and which commands the support of the local community, then all to the good.


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## Rebelda (Mar 12, 2021)

Totally unsurprising that men are horrified by the suggestion that they are held accountable for male violence. Because appeasing/solving male violence is women's work. If you don't like the sound of a curfew find another way to take responsibility for it.


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## Orang Utan (Mar 12, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> I think even just talking about it at least raises awareness. Of course the long term answer is education, especially of boys. Though it takes a lot to change the culture too. We can’t just be telling boys and men about consent and that  they shouldn’t assault girls and women. A sea change is needed. My limited experience of working in education suggests that current provision is woeful or non existent


Just saw this on Twitter, I’m glad some schools are implementing the teaching he is talking about but it needs to be all:

(Make sure you watch the second bit too)


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## Orang Utan (Mar 12, 2021)

Teaboy said:


> We're in the middle of a curfew.  A stay at home order is in place.  It is illegal to leave your home without very good reason.  The most serious restrictions on basic freedom of movement people in this country have seen for generations. It hasn't stopped terrible things happening to people.  People who do heinous things are not going to be put off by curfews.


This is not a curfew.


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## Treacle Toes (Mar 12, 2021)

Raheem said:


> Aren't most of the coppers going to be at home, though?




All men at home including male coppers. How dangerous do you think the streets would be if that happened?.....Think deeply now...


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## mojo pixy (Mar 12, 2021)

SheilaNaGig said:


> Oh fuck off.





SheilaNaGig said:


> Sorry mojo pixy
> I’m not in the mood for joshing
> But you don’t get a free pass for being stuck indoors taking care of your kid.



A free pass to what? Rape and assault women, or what?
Fuck off yourself ffs.

That was a quick visit.


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## SheilaNaGig (Mar 12, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> Just saw this on Twitter, I’m glad some schools are implementing the teaching he is talking about but it needs to be all:
> 
> (Make sure you watch the second bit too)





I’ve had a lot of conversations with men since the start of the #metoo campaign.

I say -You need to be talking about this. We’re tired of talking about this, please talk about it yourself!
They say - I do talk about it, I talk about it a lot, I’m talking to you about it right now!
I say - When was the last time you spoke to a man about it?

Men, please talk to each other. Please!


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## SheilaNaGig (Mar 12, 2021)

mojo pixy said:


> A free pass to what? Rape and assault women, or what?
> Fuck off yourself ffs.
> 
> That was a quick visit.



A free pass to exoneration, not being a part of the problem, not having to think about it, being let off talking about it, being a part of the discourse and debate.


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## krtek a houby (Mar 12, 2021)

AnnO'Neemus said:


> Not a curfew, as such, but iirc, they have women only train carriages in Japan, and in Mexico they have women only buses.



The woman only carriages are for certain times of the day and, apparently aren't strictly enforced. A few incels like to boast how they deliberately take a seat on the carriage and nobody can do anything about it.

Besides those arseholes, there is a problem with gropers on the trains over here.


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## Raheem (Mar 12, 2021)

Rutita1 said:


> All men at home including male coppers. How dangerous do you think the streets would be if that happened?.....Think deeply now...


I was thinking about enforcement rather than safety. The wider point being that a curfew would require a lot of men to still be in the environment in order to be part of the infrastructure supporting it, and it would also therefore be impractical to police curfew breaches. Would women be or feel very much safer on the walk home?


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## campanula (Mar 12, 2021)

Also, curfews do not keep us safe. Most acts of rape, murder, violence are not happening on the dark and lawless street - they are happening in our homes, perpetrated by people we know. This is a struggle which has to be fought on many levels, with the imput of many voices...especially those who are both powerless and often invisible (sometimes because they are fucking dead).


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## BlanketAddict (Mar 12, 2021)

Why would the overwhelmingly vast majority of men have to have their personal freedom restricted because of the heinous actions of the extreme minority?

It's a daft idea to even suggest it.


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## Treacle Toes (Mar 12, 2021)

BlanketAddict said:


> Why would the overwhelmingly vast majority of men have to have their personal freedom restricted because of the heinous actions of the extreme minority?
> 
> It's a daft idea to even suggest it.



#Notallmen   Yes, we know.


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## Petcha (Mar 12, 2021)

As the OP said, it's rhetorical really. It's an interesting idea and something I'd be willing to observe for a night, in solidarity.


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## yield (Mar 12, 2021)

Raheem said:


> I was thinking about enforcement rather than safety. The wider point being that a curfew would require a lot of men to still be in the environment in order to be part of the infrastructure supporting it, and it would also therefore be impractical to police curfew breaches. Would women be or feel very much safer on the walk home?


No, it wouldn't require men.


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## Petcha (Mar 12, 2021)

It would certainly have far more impact post-lockdown mind you as the streets are pretty much deserted at night at the moment anyway


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## 8ball (Mar 12, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> The problem with this is people work and study all hours of the day. Waiters and chefs and paramedics and locksmiths and theatre staff and bus drivers etc etc. Men who study in the evening. It sounds a good idea until it comes into contact with reality.



Careful, now.


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## Orang Utan (Mar 12, 2021)

BlanketAddict said:


> Why would the overwhelmingly vast majority of men have to have their personal freedom restricted because of the heinous actions of the extreme minority?
> 
> It's a daft idea to even suggest it.


Why should all women have their personal freedom restricted because of the heinous actions of the extreme minority?

and it’s not daft if it gets people talking and raises awareness


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## 8ball (Mar 12, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> Why should all women have their personal freedom restricted because of the heinous actions of the extreme minority?
> 
> and it’s not daft if it gets people talking and raises awareness



I assume this curfew would be enforced by.... hang on...









						Scale of police sexual abuse claims revealed
					

Nearly 1,500 accusations made against officers in England and Wales over six years




					www.google.co.uk


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## BlanketAddict (Mar 12, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> Why should all women have their personal freedom restricted because of the heinous actions of the extreme minority?
> 
> and it’s not daft if it gets people talking and raises awareness



Because. Humans. Been bashing each other over the head, raping and pillaging since the dawn of time, across all civilizations. I don't expect this to change unfortunately. 

It can be a daft idea AND it can raise awareness etc. Two things can be true. 

I think it's a daft idea.


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## Treacle Toes (Mar 12, 2021)

BlanketAddict said:


> Because. Humans. Been bashing each other over the head, raping and pillaging since the dawn of time, across all civilizations. I don't expect this to change unfortunately.
> 
> It can be a daft idea AND it can raise awareness etc. Two things can be true.
> 
> I think it's a daft idea.



What don't you get about it NOT being a serious suggestion...a hypothetical, to get people thinking/talking/feeling?
A rhetorical that moves people to think/talk/become aware about the restrictions and risks women face daily?


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## neonwilderness (Mar 12, 2021)

BlanketAddict said:


> Why would the overwhelmingly vast majority of men have to have their personal freedom restricted because of the heinous actions of the extreme minority?
> 
> It's a daft idea to even suggest it.


Is it dafter than suggesting women stay at home for their own safety? Or is that ok as it doesn’t affect the vast majority of men’s personal freedom?


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## BlanketAddict (Mar 12, 2021)

Rutita1 said:


> What don't you get about it NOT being a serious suggestion...a hypothetical, to get people thinking/talking/feeling?



I'm sorry I don't understand what you're trying to say?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Mar 12, 2021)

Try harder.


----------



## Orang Utan (Mar 12, 2021)

BlanketAddict said:


> Because. Humans. Been bashing each other over the head, raping and pillaging since the dawn of time, across all civilizations. I don't expect this to change unfortunately.
> 
> It can be a daft idea AND it can raise awareness etc. Two things can be true.
> 
> I think it's a daft idea.


It’s not a daft idea to get men to think about how women’s personal freedoms are restricted by men’s behaviour towards them


----------



## BlanketAddict (Mar 12, 2021)

neonwilderness said:


> Is it dafter than suggesting women stay at home for their own safety? Or is that ok as it doesn’t affect the vast majority of men’s personal freedom?



I think both ideas are unworkable, unfair and unrealistic.


----------



## neonwilderness (Mar 12, 2021)

BlanketAddict said:


> I think both ideas are unworkable, unfair and unrealistic.


Exactly. But it’s only an issue now that it might affect men


----------



## Sue (Mar 12, 2021)

Petcha said:


> As the OP said, it's rhetorical really. It's an interesting idea and s*omething I'd be willing to observe for a night, in solidarity*.


Gee thanks. You're a great guy.


----------



## BlanketAddict (Mar 12, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> It’s not a daft idea to get men to think about how women’s personal freedoms are restricted by men’s behaviour towards them



Couldn't agree more. But I don't need to be curfewed to consider some mens awful treatment of women.


----------



## Petcha (Mar 12, 2021)

Sue said:


> Gee thanks. You're a great guy.



Thank you


----------



## BlanketAddict (Mar 12, 2021)

neonwilderness said:


> Exactly. But it’s only an issue now that it might affect men



I think it'd affect everyone.


----------



## quimcunx (Mar 12, 2021)

BlanketAddict said:


> Why would the overwhelmingly vast majority of men have to have their personal freedom restricted because of the heinous actions of the extreme minority?
> 
> It's a daft idea to even suggest it.



Lets have the vast majority of women's personal freedom restricted instead, eh. That's not daft is it?  Or maybe it's your turn to suffer for the actions of a not so extreme minority.  We've had our turn, thank you.  Again, maybe if you #notallmen wankers were the ones suffering you'd  be a bit more motivated to do something about it.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Mar 12, 2021)

.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Mar 12, 2021)

.


----------



## Orang Utan (Mar 12, 2021)

Maybe if even for just one night, men would have to plan a different and less convenient route home, it might garner just a tiny bit of empathy for what women have put up with since the dawn of time. And if it led to men taking to each other about male violence towards women perhaps something productive could come out of it.


----------



## 8ball (Mar 12, 2021)

BlanketAddict said:


> I'm sorry I don't understand what you're trying to say?



Not going to speak for Rutita, just going to give my interpretation: the idea of the concept being useful in terms of reflection/discussion is that imo based on women facing a lot of threatening behaviour on the street all the time from men* that makes them not want to leave the house at times, and reflecting on this might be useful for some men in both understanding ways of helping (for example being able to be a safe presence especially where there may be ‘unsafe’ types about), but also (more so imo) assessing where their own behaviour may make things inadvertently worse.

* - which becomes more menacing at night but certainly is not restricted to the night


----------



## Raheem (Mar 12, 2021)

yield said:


> No, it wouldn't require men.


Practically, of course it would.


----------



## 8ball (Mar 12, 2021)

Sue said:


> Gee thanks. You're a great guy.



I’ve been on curfew for over a year - don’t I get a pat on the head too?


----------



## mauvais (Mar 12, 2021)




----------



## BlanketAddict (Mar 12, 2021)

quimcunx said:


> Lets have the vast majority of women's personal freedom restricted instead, eh. That's not daft is it?  Or maybe it's your turn to suffer for the actions of a not so extreme minority.  We've had our turn, thank you.  Again, maybe if you #notallmen wankers were the ones suffering you'd  be a bit more motivated to do something about it.



Innocent people have to suffer because other innocent people have suffered?

I don't know why having an opinion about what I feel is a crazy idea means you have to lump me in with this not all men thing and call me a wanker? How does that help move the conversation forward?

As someone who grew up watching my father physically abuse my mum I know full well the things some men can do to women for their own selfish reasons.  These things taught me young about what's right and what's wrong, and about the struggles of some women. Dad eventually got the boot, Mum is as glorious as ever and still going strong!

People can have different opinions on things and details but still agree on the bigger picture , doesn't mean they're your enemy to be insulted.


----------



## 8ball (Mar 12, 2021)

I got pretty angry when hearing this week about experiences a friend has regularly while out running.  Not that it was news to me that women get hassle when out for a run, but these particular stories were incensing.

By talking about this for a little while, we can get around the “we didn’t know” thing.  I think that’s a good thing.

The “your turn now” angle definitely isn’t a good thing.

Although if we locked up all men between the ages of 15 and <whatever my age is now minus two>, violent crime would be all but eliminated overnight.


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Mar 12, 2021)

BlanketAddict said:


> Couldn't agree more. But I don't need to be curfewed to consider some mens awful treatment of women.


Given your posts on this thread I'd say it would be some excellent time for reflection.

At a start it might not  be the best place to be making things about  how  you don't  need to be curfewed.
It's not about you its about the wider culture and everyone who says these things aren't needed because they are fine and they don't want to be inconvenienced are missing that point.

I don't feel particularly comfortable about putting words in other people's mouths about what this is or isn't  but I feel  this is part of the problem. the i'm alright jack syndrome.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 12, 2021)

SheilaNaGig said:


> Apply this to the current situation. Women who are obliged to be out at all hours (carers bus drivers office cleaners nurses waiters bar staff late night shops women who study late theatre staff etc ) who are curtailed by their fears and the behaviour of men.
> 
> No point other than a reminder that plenty of women who are out late aren’t there for fun but for work.


a simple point - there is no curfew for women. this is a thread about a curfew for men. I don't think it could work, I suspect the first legal challenge would strike it down, and by stopping men working in eg a&e at nights you'd likely make things less safe in a range of ways. 

To change things for the better will take time - as I've suggested elsewhere changes need to be made in culture and education as well as in socialisation and imo something like a curfew won't achieve its desired objectives


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 12, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> Why should all women have their personal freedom restricted because of the heinous actions of the extreme minority?
> 
> and it’s not daft if it gets people talking and raises awareness


The point is not to achieve awareness but lasting change, surely


----------



## Orang Utan (Mar 12, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> The point is not to achieve awareness but lasting change, surely


Yes, the former leading to the latter


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 12, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> Yes, the former leading to the latter


I think you're living in cloud-cuckoo land if you believe that's going to happen from the proposal in the op


----------



## Doodler (Mar 12, 2021)

Reintroduce beat policing and give top priority to patrolling areas where sexual assaults have tended to occur.


----------



## Orang Utan (Mar 12, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> I think you're living in cloud-cuckoo land if you believe that's going to happen from the proposal in the op


It’s a start and needs to be part of other radical measures to change the culture that normalises men’s predatory behaviour and makes other men make excuses for their dangerous peers


----------



## Orang Utan (Mar 12, 2021)

Doodler said:


> Reintroduce beat policing and give top priority to patrolling areas where sexual assaults have tended to occur.


How is that going to stop the police from assaulting citizens?


----------



## neonwilderness (Mar 12, 2021)

BlanketAddict said:


> Innocent people have to suffer because other innocent people have suffered?


But it’s only a problem now that innocent men would be affected, which is the point. I don’t want my freedom restricted because of a minority either, but it’s been fine for innocent women to be told to stay at home for their own safety for years. Rather than addressing the root cause it just shifts the blame elsewhere.


----------



## ElizabethofYork (Mar 12, 2021)

Doodler said:


> Reintroduce beat policing and give top priority to patrolling areas where sexual assaults have tended to occur.


Sexual assaults happen everywhere.
Women can't trust the police.


----------



## Doodler (Mar 12, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> How is that going to stop the police from assaulting citizens?



Are you really suggesting the presence of patrolling police officers, with many women among their number, is likely to cause a net increase in the amount of rapes and other sexual assaults carried out in public places?


----------



## Doodler (Mar 12, 2021)

ElizabethofYork said:


> Sexual assaults happen everywhere.
> Women can't trust the police.



They happen more in some places than others.


----------



## BlanketAddict (Mar 12, 2021)

Shippou-Sensei said:


> Given your posts on this thread I'd say it would be some excellent time for reflection.
> 
> At a start it might not  be the best place to be making things about  how  you don't  need to be curfewed.
> It's not about you its about the wider culture and everyone who says these things aren't needed because they are fine and they don't want to be inconvenienced are missing that point.
> ...



I never said I'm fine so things aren't needed. Nor am I alright Jack. 

I did say some men treat women terribly. I did say the idea of curfewing all men is a daft idea. 

I do believe society has a job to do to formulate solutions to address violence against women, and children, and animals, and men. 

I also believe in the reality that humans are humans, and as previously mentioned, have a long long history, perhaps even a natural inclination to stretch the point, for violence. 

There's a line in The Denial Of Death that always stuck with me about everything in nature ripping everything else to shreds, from animals down to plant life. IMO bigger brained humans have taken this to a new level that transcends the immediate need for survival. Hence, perpetual violence to our fellow people, for all sorts of reasons or even no reason at all.


----------



## Orang Utan (Mar 12, 2021)

Doodler said:


> Are you really suggesting the presence of patrolling police officers, with many women among their number, is likely to cause a net increase in the amount of rapes and other sexual assaults carried out in public places?


I think that considering the circumstances it might not be a little tone deaf to suggest it


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 12, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> It’s a start and needs to be part of other radical measures to change the culture that normalises men’s predatory behaviour and makes other men make excuses for their dangerous peers


There are a range of actions that could be undertaken which might have a longer lasting effect, such as working on ways to increase the proportion of rapists jailed, of designing crime out of streets, of making it clear that the 'low level' harassment won't be tolerated as it so often is the base from which other serious crimes spring. But it's also got to see more fundamental structural changes, so fewer boys grow into men with the attitudes that fuel misogynistic crimes. These things take time and money and effort but will imo achieve more than creating a seven day talking point will. I wish I had your faith in the power of a curfew to achieve lasting change. But I don't


----------



## Orang Utan (Mar 12, 2021)

BlanketAddict said:


> I never said I'm fine so things aren't needed. Nor am I alright Jack.
> 
> I did say some men treat women terribly. I did say the idea of curfewing all men is a daft idea.
> 
> ...


Getting dangerously close to that right wing notion that being horrible is human nature and nothing can be done to change it


----------



## teuchter (Mar 12, 2021)

I'm surprised this thread has reached page 4 and no-one's started the argument about how you'd define who was a man yet.


----------



## Orang Utan (Mar 12, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> There are a range of actions that could be undertaken which might have a longer lasting effect, such as working on ways to increase the proportion of rapists jailed, of designing crime out of streets, of making it clear that the 'low level' harassment won't be tolerated as it so often is the base from which other serious crimes spring. But it's also got to see more fundamental structural changes, so fewer boys grow into men with the attitudes that fuel misogynistic crimes. These things take time and money and effort but will imo achieve more than creating a seven day talking point will. I wish I had your faith in the power of a curfew to achieve lasting change. But I don't


You clearly haven’t read all of my posts then


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 12, 2021)

ElizabethofYork said:


> Sexual assaults happen everywhere.
> Women can't trust the police.


No one can trust the police, be they women or men


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Mar 12, 2021)

teuchter said:


> I'm surprised this thread has reached page 4 and no-one's started the argument about how you'd define who was a man yet.


Well there is a self fulfilling prophecy.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 12, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> You clearly haven’t read all of my posts then


I replied to your post to me, if you want me to consider other points include them when you quote me next


----------



## BlanketAddict (Mar 12, 2021)

neonwilderness said:


> But it’s only a problem now that innocent men would be affected, which is the point. I don’t want my freedom restricted because of a minority either, but it’s been fine for innocent women to be told to stay at home for their own safety for years. Rather than addressing the root cause it just shifts the blame elsewhere.



But it's not 'been fine' for women to have to stay at home. Just like it wouldn't be fine for men to have to stay at home. That's why I call it a daft idea, real change would surely require much more reasoned solutions?


----------



## Orang Utan (Mar 12, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> And you've not read all of mine.


I have - you repeated some of the points I made earlier and suggested that I had faith in the implementation of a blanket curfew


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 12, 2021)

teuchter said:


> I'm surprised this thread has reached page 4 and no-one's started the argument about how you'd define who was a man yet.


Share your definition as a starting point


----------



## Orang Utan (Mar 12, 2021)

BlanketAddict said:


> But it's not 'been fine' for women to have to stay at home. Just like it wouldn't be fine for men to have to stay at home. That's why I call it a daft idea, real change would surely require much more reasoned solutions?


It’s a thought experiment ffs


----------



## Orang Utan (Mar 12, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Share your definition as a starting point


Please don’t


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 12, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> I have - you repeated some of the points I made earlier and suggested that I had faith in the implementation of a blanket curfew


Read my edited post


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 12, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> It’s a thought experiment ffs


so the way it's been tried in Colombia was simply part of this te


----------



## Orang Utan (Mar 12, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> I replied to your post to me, if you want me to consider other points include them when you quote me next





Orang Utan said:


> I think even just talking about it at least raises awareness. Of course the long term answer is education, especially of boys. Though it takes a lot to change the culture too. We can’t just be telling boys and men about consent and that  they shouldn’t assault girls and women. A sea change is needed. My limited experience of working in education suggests that current provision is woeful or non existent


----------



## Clair De Lune (Mar 12, 2021)

What about collars with bells on?


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 12, 2021)

No, the longer term solution is not education. Not on its own. The portrayal of women in mass culture has to change too Orang Utan


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 12, 2021)

Clair De Lune said:


> What about collars with bells on?


----------



## BlanketAddict (Mar 12, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> Getting dangerously close to that right wing notion that being horrible is human nature and nothing can be done to change it



Right wing? Hahaha! That's raised a chuckle. 
Humans can be murderous beasts, and having the opinion that it will probably always be a part of life, and recognising that make me right wing?!

That's farcical.


----------



## teuchter (Mar 12, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Share your definition as a starting point


Definition for what purposes?


----------



## BlanketAddict (Mar 12, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> It’s a thought experiment ffs



Agreed. A daft one.


----------



## Orang Utan (Mar 12, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> No, the longer term solution is not education. Not on its own. The portrayal of women in mass culture has to change to Orang Utan


Correct. Hence what I also said about changing the culture. A lot needs to change


----------



## Orang Utan (Mar 12, 2021)

BlanketAddict said:


> Agreed. A daft one.


Not if it gets us talking


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 12, 2021)

teuchter said:


> Definition for what purposes?


Look, if you don't have such a definition then pipe down and we'll forget all about it. But go on, share your definition of men for the purposes of this thread.


----------



## Orang Utan (Mar 12, 2021)

teuchter said:


> Definition for what purposes?


Stop


----------



## Orang Utan (Mar 12, 2021)

BlanketAddict said:


> Right wing? Hahaha! That's raised a chuckle.
> Humans can be murderous beasts, and having the opinion that it will probably always be a part of life, and recognising that make me right wing?!
> 
> That's farcical.


It usually comes from that side, but it’s not exclusive to that ideology


----------



## Sue (Mar 12, 2021)

BlanketAddict said:


> *But it's not 'been fine' for women to have to stay at home.* Just like it wouldn't be fine for men to have to stay at home. That's why I call it a daft idea, real change would surely require much more reasoned solutions?


Well apparently it has been fine as this is what women have typically been advised to do when there's a sexual predator about. And I can't remember there ever being an outcry from men about it...


----------



## teuchter (Mar 12, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Look, if you don't have such a definition then pipe down and we'll forget all about it. But go on, share your definition of men for the purposes of this thread.


What are the purposes of this thread?


----------



## Orang Utan (Mar 12, 2021)

teuchter said:


> What are the purposes of this thread?


Stop it


----------



## BlanketAddict (Mar 12, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> Not if it gets us talking



Perhaps, maybe.


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 12, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> a simple point - there is no curfew for women. this is a thread about a curfew for men. I don't think it could work, I suspect the first legal challenge would strike it down, and by stopping men working in eg a&e at nights you'd likely make things less safe in a range of ways.
> 
> To change things for the better will take time - as I've suggested elsewhere changes need to be made in culture and education as well as in socialisation and imo something like a curfew won't achieve its desired objectives



I don’t think a male curfew is feasible on any level. 

But it’s is an interesting discussion point, thought experiment, rhetorical question.

Discussing the practicalities is silly in this context.

Tantamount to “if it was true that women can’t walk the streets we would never see them out of doors”.
Factually true, but not what we’re talking about.

Instead of thinking how it wouldn’t work In practice, consider what it would be like in principle.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 12, 2021)

teuchter said:


> What are the purposes of this thread?


I thought you had nothing to add. You're the worst poster on this thread, if not the worst poster of urban and you'll only add to the number of people who despise you if you carry on


----------



## BlanketAddict (Mar 12, 2021)

Sue said:


> Well apparently it has been fine as this is what women have typically been advised to do when there's a sexual predator about. And I can't remember there ever being an outcry from men about it...



But I'm saying it ISN'T fine! That was my point!


----------



## neonwilderness (Mar 12, 2021)

BlanketAddict said:


> *But it's not 'been fine' for women to have to stay at home. *Just like it wouldn't be fine for men to have to stay at home. That's why I call it a daft idea, real change would surely require much more reasoned solutions?


Then why has the massive outcry only happened now that it’s been suggested men should be made to stay at home instead?

Clearly it’s not going to happen, but if the suggestion gets people talking about the problems then it’s a start.


----------



## Doodler (Mar 12, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> I think that considering the circumstances it might not be a little tone deaf to suggest it



Who else can take on the task? I would like to see a self-organising public ensuring its own safety but what chance is there of that in such an atomised society?


----------



## BlanketAddict (Mar 12, 2021)

neonwilderness said:


> Then why has the massive outcry only happened now that it’s been suggested men should be made to stay at home instead?
> 
> Clearly it’s not going to happen, but if the suggestion gets people talking about the problems then it’s a start.



Is there a massive outcry? Or a bunch of tweets on a site filled with people insulting each other anonymously and being contrarian?

Don't get me wrong, I'm fully aware of the issue of violence towards women, see my previous posts, I just think it's a daft idea which wouldn't progress anything. I would actually be in favour of harsher sentences for deserving crimes tied with some meaningful education in school (particularly with the rise of social media and the way it can affect 'reality' to growing minds)


----------



## Orang Utan (Mar 12, 2021)

BlanketAddict said:


> Is there a massive outcry? Or a bunch of tweets on a site filled with people insulting each other anonymously and being contrarian?
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I'm fully aware of the issue of violence towards women, see my previous posts, I just think it's a daft idea which wouldn't progress anything. I would actually be in favour of harsher sentences for deserving crimes tied with some meaningful education in school (particularly with the rise of social media and the way it can affect 'reality' to growing minds)





SheilaNaGig said:


> I don’t think a male curfew is feasible on any level.
> 
> But it’s is an interesting discussion point, thought experiment, rhetorical question.
> 
> ...


----------



## BlanketAddict (Mar 12, 2021)

It's Mothers Day on Sunday. 
A positive vibe 💐


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 12, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> How is that going to stop the police from assaulting citizens?


Or anywhere else. Like bars pubs clubs. Other streets, shops, tube stations, at home.


----------



## Sue (Mar 12, 2021)

BlanketAddict said:


> It's Mothers Day on Sunday.
> A positive vibe 💐


What's your point?


----------



## Orang Utan (Mar 12, 2021)

BlanketAddict said:


> It's Mothers Day on Sunday.
> A positive vibe 💐


Nice for some folk


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 12, 2021)

Doodler said:


> They happen more in some places than others.




Until those places no longer lend themsleves  the flashers and sex pests, who move onto other locations.

You're missing the point.

The point is that men’s attitudes to women need to fucking change, at root, fundamentally. 

Policing tthis or that street corner will do nothing to change the culture of misogyny.


----------



## BlanketAddict (Mar 12, 2021)

Sue said:


> What's your point?



That it's Mothers Day, that I've got Mum some plants and chocolates and a bit of gin!

And that it's a positive vibe in these times.


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 12, 2021)

BlanketAddict said:


> I never said I'm fine so things aren't needed. Nor am I alright Jack.
> 
> I did say some men treat women terribly. I did say the idea of curfewing all men is a daft idea.
> 
> ...



And what do you propose to do anout this?
What moves will you undertake, how will you apply what you know to help bring about real change?


----------



## BlanketAddict (Mar 12, 2021)

SheilaNaGig said:


> And what do you propose to do anout this?
> What moves will you undertake, how will you apply what you know to help bring about real change?



I start with helping my sister with my niece and nephew and bringing them up the right way, just like my family did for me. 
I also show respect for others, male or female. 
It might sound trite and simplistic perhaps but I believe in it, positive role models can have an important influence, even if it's just teaching the young uns the difference between right and wrong when they might occasionally slip up!

What moves do you undertake? Similar I would hope. Real change is best achieved if you start young I believe.


----------



## Raheem (Mar 12, 2021)

SheilaNaGig said:


> I don’t think a male curfew is feasible on any level.
> 
> But it’s is an interesting discussion point, thought experiment, rhetorical question.
> 
> ...


I think better would be "OK, so what do we think could be done without having to pretend it's feasible".


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 12, 2021)

Raheem said:


> I think better would be "OK, so what do we think could be done without having to pretend it's feasible".




Go on then....


----------



## BlanketAddict (Mar 12, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> No, the longer term solution is not education. Not on its own. The portrayal of women in mass culture has to change too Orang Utan



A very good point.


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 12, 2021)

BlanketAddict said:


> I start with helping my sister with my niece and nephew and bringing them up the right way, just like my family did for me.
> I also show respect for others, male or female.
> It might sound trite and simplistic perhaps but I believe in it, positive role models can have an important influence, even if it's just teaching the young uns the difference between right and wrong when they might occasionally slip up!
> 
> What moves do you undertake? Similar I would hope. Real change is best achieved if you start young I believe.




Well of course, but that’s baseline.

I don’t see why raising children to have a functioning moral compass should be considered radical ffs.

And in the meantime? While these good and righteous children are being raised? What should be done, right now, today, to help make things better so that it doent fall to them to make the radical changes when they finally grow up.


----------



## 8ball (Mar 12, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> Getting dangerously close to that right wing notion that being horrible is human nature and nothing can be done to change it



In some senses it’s true to a varying extent, but human nature does get rolled out almost exclusively when discussing the shittier side of human behaviour.


----------



## BlanketAddict (Mar 12, 2021)

SheilaNaGig said:


> Well of course, but that’s baseline.
> 
> I don’t see why raising children to have a functioning moral compass should be considered radical ffs.
> 
> And in the meantime? While these good and righteous children are being raised? What should be done, right now, today, to help make things better so that it doent fall to them to make the radical changes when they finally grow up.



It might be baseline, but I would bet it's certainly not universal. And it's not radical, but positive. 

As for the second part of your quote, who knows, the issue is a very complex one not easily solved (or else it would have already been solved). I don't pretend to be the person to wave a magic wand or have all the answers!

What would you do?


----------



## Orang Utan (Mar 12, 2021)

BlanketAddict said:


> It might be baseline, but I would bet it's certainly not universal.
> 
> As for the second part of your quote, who knows, the issue is a very complex one not easily solved (or else it would have already been solved). I don't pretend to be the person to wave a magic wand or have all the answers!
> 
> What would you do?


It’s not a question to ask of women but of men


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 12, 2021)

BlanketAddict said:


> It might be baseline, but I would bet it's certainly not universal.
> 
> As for the second part of your quote, who knows, the issue is a very complex one not easily solved (or else it would have already been solved). I don't pretend to be the person to wave a magic wand or have all the answers!
> 
> What would you do?




No, it’s  not universal. Which is in part why we need to do all sorts of other things too.

And I’m really tired and bored of talking about the world I’d like to see with regards to this stuff, how it might be achieved what needs to be addressed etc.

I really want men to start thinking about it and talking about irl.

That has to start with men saying “what I’m doing isn’t enough yet... what else, what more, can I be doing”


Pickman's model outlined some stuff earlier, go back and read that, have a think about how you (collective men) can engage with that stuff.


----------



## BlanketAddict (Mar 12, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> It’s not a question to ask of women but of men



Any solution or progress surely requires everyone to engage?

Men are exclusively going to work it out? Without women's input and dialogue? 

It's a question to be asked of everybody no?


----------



## 8ball (Mar 12, 2021)

BlanketAddict said:


> Any solution or progress surely requires everyone to engage?
> 
> Men are exclusively going to work it out? Without women's input and dialogue?
> 
> It's a question to be asked of everybody no?



Agree.  Some of the stories I’ve heard this week have brought things into some focus.  Wouldn’t have done that by just talking with men.


----------



## campanula (Mar 12, 2021)

There is a shit ton of stuff which can be done to both increase awareness of violence...from the obvious practical things such as better street lighting, a willingness to tackle institutional misogyny, listening to what women actually want and need (better housing, employment rights, childcare initiatives, increased health facilities, education, more women-only spaces, increased legal representation, much more help and support for small scale local initiatives such as literacy and numeracy, better engagement with within local authority structures with much wider representation for women across class, cultural and ethnicity lines (and not some top-down community elder shit but space for bottom-up sustainable organising)...using the idea of  curfew as a means to empathy , a visceral illustration of what it means, having freedoms curtailed because of an ever-present sense of injustice and oppression. It's a conversation...but we need a lot more than that.


----------



## BlanketAddict (Mar 12, 2021)

SheilaNaGig said:


> No, it’s  not universal. Which is in part why we need to do all sorts of other things too.
> 
> And I’m really tired and bored of talking about the world I’d like to see with regards to this stuff, how it might be achi vec, what needs to be addressed etc.
> 
> ...



I would say dialogue is the best way forward.  Don't leave it up to men on their own to work out! 
The best way for men to understand women, and how their behaviour affects them will require women to educate them as well. 
 Don't leave it exclusively to men!


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 12, 2021)

BlanketAddict said:


> It might be baseline, but I would bet it's certainly not universal. And it's not radical, but positive.
> 
> As for the second part of your quote, who knows, the issue is a very complex one not easily solved (or else it would have already been solved). I don't pretend to be the person to wave a magic wand or have all the answers!
> 
> What would you do?




What books do your kids read. What tv shows and video,games do they engage with. Do you encourage them to think this stuff through?


----------



## Orang Utan (Mar 13, 2021)

BlanketAddict said:


> I would say dialogue is the best way forward.  Don't leave it up to men on their own to work out!
> The best way for men to understand women, and how their behaviour affects them will require women to educate them as well.
> Don't leave it exclusively to men!


But it’s always been up to the women to fix the men and do all the hard work of educating them on how not to be a shit. Surely it’s our turn to do the legwork?


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Mar 13, 2021)

I think I should try to do a bit more trying to address this stuff with my students. Normally this doesn't come up that often outside of tutorials.
I remember doing a session on consent  and while broadly the points went across I do remember  that a few of the male students felt that when this topic came up it was an attack against them from women. Like that a woman who they slept with was going to suddenly jump around and claim the guy was at fault.
Myself and the other (male) tutor tried to convey how astronomically unlikely that is compared to the real problems with assault. I mean I know people often get hung up on what's a downside to them but it did give me pause for thought (I think I may have said something along the lines of stop being so bloody thirsty.)

I have had to cut out two people in the past for stuff like this. One was a person I knew from wayback in secondary school. back in the 2010s he friended me on facebook but practically immediately after went through my list of female friends and creeped on them. That was hard unfriend. Part of the reason i'm glad to be gone from facebook.
The other was a guy who was a proper old school geek friend also from school days. He felt ultra depressed about his social life  and unfortunately fell into the pick up artist crowd (sarging specifically).
He turned from a nice guy I'd be happy to make computing jokes  with  to an utter horrific sleaze.  He fell right into the disgusting shitty misogynistic pick up artist mind set.  Also had to radically unfreind. I hear he  actually managed to settle down a bit after  getting into a proper relationship  but  man it was horrible to see it happen.  Tried to pull me into it  as he saw me as a someone in the same situation. Thankfully I have fairly decent self acceptance and saw  this cult for what it is.


----------



## Orang Utan (Mar 13, 2021)

BlanketAddict said:


> Any solution or progress surely requires everyone to engage?
> 
> Men are exclusively going to work it out? Without women's input and dialogue?
> 
> It's a question to be asked of everybody no?


You were asking a woman what she’d done as if it was her responsibility as much as men’s.


----------



## BlanketAddict (Mar 13, 2021)

SheilaNaGig said:


> What books do your kids read. What tv shows and video,games do they engage with. Do you encourage them to think this stuff through?



My sisters kids. 

In reality it's a battle to get them off the tablets playing games but we all make a real, conscious effort to teach them about the fundamental rights of the equality of all people. 
Living in a part of the country where there is little to no diversity things can crop up, recently for example about race. These things have to be nipped in the bus so the kids understand it's not right, or cool, to discriminate. 

Their school I have to say is great, it's a primary but already projects on equal rights, how people are different etc ( along with the obligatory dinosaur stuff)!

As I said, you've got to start young, and have a positive family atmosphere.


----------



## BlanketAddict (Mar 13, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> You were asking a woman what she’d done as if it was her responsibility as much as men’s.



No. 

She asked me, I replied, and then asked her. 

That's wrong? Dialogue helps.


----------



## BlanketAddict (Mar 13, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> But it’s always been up to the women to fix the men and do all the hard work of educating them on how not to be a shit. Surely it’s our turn to do the legwork?



No. 

Progress has to come via dialogue and work between both sexes. 

Don't leave it just to men, you need women's input!


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 13, 2021)

BlanketAddict said:


> Any solution or progress surely requires everyone to engage?
> 
> Men are exclusively going to work it out? Without women's input and dialogue?
> 
> It's a question to be asked of everybody no?



I’m really pleased you’re asking these questions but honestly, this feels like circling back to the ABCs of this issue.

We have been talking about this and dealing with this shit for decades. This thread is us talking a bout it. We’ve been waiting for men, you and your brothers, to join in the conversation. 

We can’t get any further without you, men, really engaging with the conversation, the ideas. Not so much about us, women, and our tits and our rights, but about you, your behaviour, your attitudes, your inbuilt belief structures. And it’s you, not us, you who are expert in that.

We observe and we absorb your attitudes and beliefs structures, but it’s you who hold them; they are yours to do with as you choose. They’re not ours to change, they’re yours. You can wield your artitude, you can use them to bash me, you can defend ithem and stand firm in them, or you can evolve and develop them. I can’t do any of that,

I can’t even influence you, if you keep saying “I’m not a problem, I’m not the problem”.

It is utterly exasperating to have to keep repeating the same stuff over and over again, but I will, each time a man goes “uh... maybe I do have to think about this.. I will go back to square one again. Because I know that when I run out of steam, one of my sisters will come along and take up the work alongside. Just as I do for her.

We’ve GOT to do better, because what we’ve got now doesn't work. It’s no good and we _have_ to change it.


----------



## BlanketAddict (Mar 13, 2021)

SheilaNaGig said:


> I’m really pleased you’re asking these questions but honestly, this feels like circling back to the ABCs of this issue.
> 
> We have been talking about this and dealing with this shit for decades. This thread is us talking a bout it. We’ve been waiting for men, you and your brothers, to join in the conversation.
> 
> ...



I agree Sheila. 

And it might be infuriating but maybe starting with ABC's is required for a lot of men. 

I work in a warehouse, over 100 men to 3 women (really!). ABC's would be a good start, sad but reality.

But I stick to my point, women's input would be required and massively beneficial!


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 13, 2021)

BlanketAddict said:


> I agree Sheila.
> 
> And it might be infuriating but maybe starting with ABC's is required for a lot of men.
> 
> ...




Yes yes. 

And believes me, I do, patiently and with as much love as i can muster, talk with men at their own pace and trying not to cause them too much bruised ego, how fucked up some of their attitudes are.

Like the diligent chap who proudly told me he was an ally and then said “becasue women are better than men, we need to take better care of you”.

Back to square one.


----------



## Orang Utan (Mar 13, 2021)

Shippou-Sensei said:


> I think I should try to do a bit more trying to address this stuff with my students. Normally this doesn't come up that often outside of tutorials.
> I remember doing a session on consent  and while broadly the points went across I do remember  that a few of the male students felt that when this topic came up it was an attack against them from women. Like that a woman who they slept with was going to suddenly jump around and claim the guy was at fault.
> Myself and the other (male) tutor tried to convey how astronomically unlikely that is compared to the real problems with assault. I mean I know people often get hung up on what's a downside to them but it did give me pause for thought (I think I may have said something along the lines of stop being so bloody thirsty.)


The following probs needs to be spoilered and CWed - gruesome detail of sexual violence and ingrained misogyny in schools:
I have worked in two schools. At the first school, 4 15 year old boys were prosecuted, permanently excluded and placed on the sex offenders list for forcing a 13 year old girl with learning difficulties to give them oral sex. They filmed it on their phones and uploaded it onto social media. The boys were popular and I managed to intercept a petition that some pupils were trying to print out to protest against the school excluding them. The poor girl was being judged for it and it was felt the boys were being unfairly treated for it, despite them making and publishing child pornography and raping a child. I had not realised until then how insidious this shit is - it was a proper wake up call.
In the next school, an all boys Catholic school, the culture of misogyny was ingrained, even amongst the teachers. The headmaster's response to endless catcalling and harrassment of female staff was to order the boys to stop calling female staff 'Miss' and address them as 'Madam' instead. To his credit, one teacher pulled some strings at his alma mater and called in Laura Bates of Everyday Sexism to give a talk to both the boys and the staff. She didn't pull her punches and shocked many with descriptions of violent pornography, below the line comments and obscenities and threats that women receive online and in real life, but the Q&A session afterwards revealed how little the boys were taking in - eg one boy stated that all women who dressed up were prostitutes. I was a librarian there, so I had the chance to fill the library with feminist and radical texts before I left (under a bit of a cloud) - not even one teacher showed an interest in using any of these books in lessons at any point but were happy to take publicity photos of Bates meeting senior staff in front of the display I did of these texts for the occasion. Still, at least the books were still there and the boys and staff were exposed to a different view on things - I fear that things will change slowly by process of attrition but it's not soon enough, which is why we need to take tragedies like as an opportunity to widen the discourse and make radical change more possible.


----------



## Doodler (Mar 13, 2021)

SheilaNaGig said:


> Until those places no longer lend themsleves  the flashers and sex pests, who move onto other locations.



The same form of argument could be used to rebut demands for better lighting in streets and parks, or indeed any practical proposal likely to being about modest improvements.



> You're missing the point.



No, I'm aware of the bigger picture but see no point in investing much time in expounding my views in full, since while I doubt you would find them objectionable, there is nothing original about them.


----------



## David Clapson (Mar 13, 2021)

Radical feminist groups used to argue for lesbian separatist communities. As far as I know, only one got off the ground, somewhere in the US. I saw a film about it. It disintegrated after male babies were born. (I can't remember how the mothers got pregnant, but the biological fathers never lived in the community.)


----------



## Raheem (Mar 13, 2021)

SheilaNaGig said:


> Go on then....


I'm not actually sure that ideas are the issue. I think violence against women isn't an under-discussed topic at an academic, policy or campaigning level, and there's enough that remains to be achieved or defended to be going on with.

At the moment, there's a window for raising the profile of women's safety in public places, which ought to be taken advantage of, which can be done in the usual ways, even if they are limited for a lot of people, particularly in a lockdown.

But I don't especially think we're suddenly at a juncture where a radical reappraisal of ways and means is needed. And, having been forced by my OH to look at Twitter this evening, I think the idea that what is needed right now is for men to come forward with their ideas and thoughts may be little misguided.


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 13, 2021)

Raheem said:


> I'm not actually sure that ideas are the issue. I think violence against women isn't an under-discussed topic at an academic, policy or campaigning level, and there's enough that remains to be achieved or defended to be going on with.
> 
> At the moment, there's a window for raising the profile of women's safety in public places, which ought to be taken advantage of, which can be done in the usual ways, even if they are limited for a lot of people, particularly in a lockdown.
> 
> But I don't especially think we're suddenly at a juncture where a radical reappraisal of ways and means is needed. And, having been forced by my OH to look at Twitter this evening, I think the idea that what is needed right now is for men to come forward with their ideas and thoughts may be little misguided.




Not come forward. As yiu imply, there’s quite enough of that already, we don’t need need more men stepping forward

Just talk, properly, amongst yourselves.

I repeat: when was the last time you talked about this stuff.... And when was the last time you talked about this with a man? How often have you really discussed all this stuff with men?


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 13, 2021)

Raheem said:


> I'm not actually sure that ideas are the issue. I think violence against women isn't an under-discussed topic at an academic, policy or campaigning level, and there's enough that remains to be achieved or defended to be going on with.
> 
> At the moment, there's a window for raising the profile of women's safety in public places, which ought to be taken advantage of, which can be done in the usual ways, even if they are limited for a lot of people, particularly in a lockdown.
> 
> But I don't especially think we're suddenly at a juncture where a radical reappraisal of ways and means is needed. And, having been forced by my OH to look at Twitter this evening, I think the idea that what is needed right now is for men to come forward with their ideas and thoughts may be little misguided.




I agree that we need to address the practicalities of women’s safety in public places. We also need to be thinking about women’s safety at home too.

We need to get to a point where “women’s safety” doesn’t need to be flagged up for discussion and policy making.


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 13, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> I have worked in two schools. At the first school, 4 15 year old boys were prosecuted, permanently excluded and placed on the sex offenders list for forcing a 13 year old girl with learning difficulties to give them oral sex. They filmed it on their phones and uploaded it onto social media. The boys were popular and I managed to intercept a petition that some pupils were trying to print out to protest against the school excluding them. The poor girl was being judged for it and it was felt the boys were being unfairly treated for it, despite them making and publishing child pornography and raping a child. I had not realised until then how insidious this shit is - it was a proper wake up call.
> In the next school, an all boys Catholic school, the culture of misogyny was ingrained, even amongst the teachers. The headmaster's response to endless catcalling and harrassment of female staff was to order the boys to stop calling female staff 'Miss' and address them as 'Madam' instead. To his credit, one teacher pulled some strings at his alma mater and called in Laura Bates of Everyday Sexism to give a talk to both the boys and the staff. She didn't pull her punches and shocked many with descriptions of violent pornography, below the line comments and obscenities and threats that women receive online and in real life, but the Q&A session afterwards revealed how little the boys were taking in - eg one boy stated that all women who dressed up were prostitutes. I was a librarian there, so I had the chance to fill the library with feminist and radical texts before I left (under a bit of a cloud) - not even one teacher showed an interest in using any of these books in lessons at any point but were happy to take publicity photos of Bates meeting senior staff in front of the display I did of these texts for the occasion. Still, at least the books were still there and the boys and staff were exposed to a different view on things - I fear that things will change slowly by process of attrition but it's not soon enough, which is why we need to take tragedies like as an opportunity to widen the discourse and make radical change more possible.




This is so grim.


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Mar 13, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> The following probs needs to be spoilered and CWed - gruesome detail of sexual violence and ingrained misogyny in schools:
> I have worked in two schools. At the first school, 4 15 year old boys were prosecuted, permanently excluded and placed on the sex offenders list for forcing a 13 year old girl with learning difficulties to give them oral sex. They filmed it on their phones and uploaded it onto social media. The boys were popular and I managed to intercept a petition that some pupils were trying to print out to protest against the school excluding them. The poor girl was being judged for it and it was felt the boys were being unfairly treated for it, despite them making and publishing child pornography and raping a child. I had not realised until then how insidious this shit is - it was a proper wake up call.
> In the next school, an all boys Catholic school, the culture of misogyny was ingrained, even amongst the teachers. The headmaster's response to endless catcalling and harrassment of female staff was to order the boys to stop calling female staff 'Miss' and address them as 'Madam' instead. To his credit, one teacher pulled some strings at his alma mater and called in Laura Bates of Everyday Sexism to give a talk to both the boys and the staff. She didn't pull her punches and shocked many with descriptions of violent pornography, below the line comments and obscenities and threats that women receive online and in real life, but the Q&A session afterwards revealed how little the boys were taking in - eg one boy stated that all women who dressed up were prostitutes. I was a librarian there, so I had the chance to fill the library with feminist and radical texts before I left (under a bit of a cloud) - not even one teacher showed an interest in using any of these books in lessons at any point but were happy to take publicity photos of Bates meeting senior staff in front of the display I did of these texts for the occasion. Still, at least the books were still there and the boys and staff were exposed to a different view on things - I fear that things will change slowly by process of attrition but it's not soon enough, which is why we need to take tragedies like as an opportunity to widen the discourse and make radical change more possible.


Oh god that's just fucking infuriating and saddening at the same time.
I'm worrying now that I just don't see it.  that i'm making an unconscious decision to ignore possible signs just because I don't want to think that it is possible.

Actually I  will try to actively spot and investigate possible problems. (It's not that I wasn't trying to spot problems it's just maybe I wasn't doing enough)
I'm now thinking of a conversation I had with a student  where  I was  not probably not trying hard enough before the conversation.
had a male student who spent a lot of time talking with a female student. to me it looked like both of them were equally skiving off a bit with maybe a hint of flirtation.
I had a very enlightening conversation with the female student who let me know that she found the male student to be a bit of a pain. Nothing terrible  but I got the impression that she was giving him the time of day more because telling him to piss off would cause more annoyance than just doing the equivalent of nodding and smiling.
Though she did basically tell these other two guys to fuck right off as they were much more... surley. Glad to see the back of them for a lot of reasons.
Once again it goes to show  what  a fucking social tightrope it is that women have to walk on.


----------



## Orang Utan (Mar 13, 2021)

SheilaNaGig said:


> This is so grim.


Have spoilered it in case it's too much for some


----------



## oryx (Mar 13, 2021)

SheilaNaGig said:


> This is so grim.



It is absolutely and utterly grim. The second story is par for the course, I'm afraid, in terms of women's rights.

The first one is horrific and my guess is that the rapid growth in online porn (which I'd guess is easily available to those below 18) is mainly to blame. 

I haven't seen any porn since I was in my teens (which is a bloody long time ago) but reading stuff about currently available online porn, it is obvious that demeaning women e.g. forcing oral sex, violence, etc. is endemic. 

The (tongue in cheek) idea of a curfew for men has raised interesting questions but as well as better laws against violence against women, online porn is the one of the first areas that needs to be addressed. See also: revenge porn, sexting.


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 13, 2021)

David Clapson said:


> Radical feminist groups used to argue for lesbian separatist communities. As far as I know, only one got off the ground, somewhere in the US. I saw a film about it. It disintegrated after male babies were born. (I can't remember how the mothers got pregnant, but the biological fathers never lived in the community.)




I’m not sure why you’ve said this, what it contributes to the current discussion, what point you’re trying to make.

But anyway, for information, there were loads of women only communities, and a few are still going but not thriving.









						Evolve or die: the stark choice facing America's 'women's lands'
					

At the end of a dirt road that curls deep into the wooded hills of Vermont, a white farmhouse in overgrown meadows hides decades of U.S. women's history - and a once thriving community, now in steady decline.




					www.reuters.com


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Mar 13, 2021)

oryx said:


> It is absolutely and utterly grim. The second story is par for the course, I'm afraid, in terms of women's rights.
> 
> The first one is horrific and my guess is that the rapid growth in online porn (which I'd guess is easily available to those below 18) is mainly to blame.
> 
> ...


I don't know.  I think porn is an easy target as it is already considered morally dubious  and  it's a lot easier to blame it  rather than to blame  wider societal failings
I think that this style of porn is more a symptom than a cause. Not to say that it plays no part in normalising extreme behaviour  but  I  think saying it's the main cause is almost an easy out for people.
Although i am with you on revenge porn stuff.  Nasty stuff.


----------



## oryx (Mar 13, 2021)

Shippou-Sensei said:


> I don't know.  I think porn is an easy target as it is already considered morally dubious  and  it's a lot easier to blame it  rather than to blame  wider societal failings
> I think that this style of porn is more a symptom than a cause. Not to say that it plays no part in normalising extreme behaviour  but  I  think saying it's the main cause is almost an easy out for people.


I don't see the vilification of a certain type of porn as a moral thing - porn has been around for centuries and probably always will be. It's reading about the type of porn that is ultra-demeaning to women and which seems to be currently prevalent that is so awful, and I can't help but think that it gets into the heads of some young men, as in the ones Orang Utan was posting about. 

I don't think it's the only cause, but is a possibly a major one. If that's how you learn to see women sexually, how does it affect you?


----------



## oli_1_uk (Mar 13, 2021)

Curfew would not work and it just opens up another can of worms as men could just say they identified as women.

The sad truth is that women will always be targets as most of the time they are not as physically strong as a man so can be overpowered. Women shouldn't have to take extra steps to protect themselves but it's the sad reality we live in, I don't think there is a clear solution to the problem. Also when you consider places like pubs and nightclubs sexual harassment claims can be more murky as alochol is involved.


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Mar 13, 2021)

If this is the only way a young person see seuality then yes. However isn't that more of a damning statement about how we educate these young people about sex and relationships.
Again I don't want to give porn a free pass.  The power dynamics and horror stories from that industry are terrible.  Part of the reason I haven't looked at anything live action in what seems like forever..


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Mar 13, 2021)

oli_1_uk said:


> Curfew would not work and it just opens up another can of worms as men could just say they identified as women.
> 
> The sad truth is that women will always be targets as most of the time they are not as physically strong as a man so can be overpowered. Women shouldn't have to take extra steps to protect themselves but it's the sad reality we live in, I don't think there is a clear solution to the problem. Also when you consider places like pubs and nightclubs sexual harassment claims can be more murky as alochol is involved.


Well this is another steamy hot take. 
Don't know where to start with this.


----------



## oryx (Mar 13, 2021)

Shippou-Sensei said:


> If this is the only way a young person see seuality then yes. However isn't that more of a damning statement about how we educate these young people about sex and relationships.



I might be being ultra naive here, but I suspect the majority of parents and certainly schools are pretty careful about teaching about consent, respect, etc.


----------



## oryx (Mar 13, 2021)

oli_1_uk said:


> Also when you consider places like pubs and nightclubs sexual harassment claims can be more murky as alochol is involved.



Well just for starters, shouldn't it be the case that it's not so much a problem with alcohol as with predatory men?


----------



## oli_1_uk (Mar 13, 2021)

oryx said:


> Well just for starters, shouldn't it be the case that it's not so much a problem with alcohol as with predatory men?


All depends on the situation, could it be predatory men or mixed messages received from women or both, that's why alcohol could be a factor and nightclubs can have a more sexual atmosphere


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Mar 13, 2021)

oryx said:


> I might be being ultra naive here, but I suspect the majority of parents and certainly schools are pretty careful about teaching about consent, respect, etc.


If that was the case then why would this porn be so brainwashing. If these people had a decent set mental tools to understand  consent and respect  why would this be the tipping point? 
(i'm asking this as an open question I don't mean this as a rebuttal)
to give a different example there is a lot of violence in films, tv, and videogames. Violence is glorified and incentivised in these forms of media.
However  we don't expect people to go out and start beating up people and stealing cars just because they play GTAV 5 hours a day.
Not a great analogy but I think it has some relevance.  Why do we think we can separate media from reality in one case but not the other. what is different? 
Again this is me  just sort of thinking it through out loud. I don't actually know enough about this extreme porn to accurately comment on it. 


although I do remember last time the government weighed in on extreme porn  it  did so in a way that that disproportionately affected areas of female sexuality.


----------



## oryx (Mar 13, 2021)

oli_1_uk said:


> All depends on the situation, could it be predatory men or mixed messages received from women or both, that's why alcohol could be a factor and nightclubs can have a more sexual atmosphere


What do you mean by 'mixed messaged from women'?


----------



## oli_1_uk (Mar 13, 2021)

Shippou-Sensei said:


> Well this is another steamy hot take.
> Don't know where to start with this.


Understandably you may not agree


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Mar 13, 2021)

oli_1_uk said:


> All depends on the situation, could it be predatory men or mixed messages received from women or both, that's why alcohol could be a factor and nightclubs can have a more sexual atmosphere


Oh.. mixed messages.

I'm close to getting a bingo on bad takes


----------



## oryx (Mar 13, 2021)

Shippou-Sensei said:


> If that was the case then why would this porn be so brainwashing. If these people had a decent set mental tools to understand  consent and respect  why would this be the tipping point?
> (i'm asking this as an open question I don't mean this as a rebuttal)
> to give a different example there is a lot of violence in films, tv, and videogames. Violence is glorified and incentivised in these forms of media.
> However  we don't expect people to go out and start beating up people and stealing cars just because they play GTAV 5 hours a day.
> ...


Car crime and physical violence is pretty endemic, though. 

I'm always quite horrified at the way violence is portrayed and effectively normalised on TV and in films. 

Its normalisation surely has an effect.


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 13, 2021)

Shippou-Sensei said:


> Well this is another steamy hot take.
> Don't know where to start with this.




Back at square one.


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Mar 13, 2021)

oli_1_uk said:


> Understandably you may not agree


I do think it is understandable that I disagree with  a post that  starts of with a line that is a really bad take on the utterly shit time trans men and women (especially trans women) are having in the current cultural climate.
I think it understandable for me to disagree with a next line that basically says it's down to women to deal with this because men will never change.
I think it is also understandable of me to disagree with a final point which then places the blame  on women for getting drunk  and implies  that men get a pass if  they do something with someone who wasn't capable of giving proper consent.

because i really don't agree with all of that.


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 13, 2021)

oli_1_uk said:


> Understandably you may not agree




??


----------



## oli_1_uk (Mar 13, 2021)

oryx said:


> What do you mean by 'mixed messaged from women'?


Wanting a guy one minute then not the next, dancing provocatively with a guy then pushing him away, kissing him then not speaking with him again, the guy may pursue the woman but because she wants nothing more she feels harassed. The guy should leave the girl alone of course, but alochol thrown into the mix can cause a lot of miscommunication from both parties


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Mar 13, 2021)

Shippou-Sensei said:


> Don't know where to start with this.



i know where to finish with it


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 13, 2021)

And what is the guy doing during this encounter?

Is he doing nothing, being shoved around by this drunk dancing flirting woman? Or is he perhaps being more pushy than she’d like, breaching boundaries, chancing his arm, pushing his luck, being more handsy than she’s comfortable with?

Maybe it’s not mixed messages, maybe it’s something else, maybe he’s making assumptions about her flirting, how drunk she is, maybe he’s assuming he can force and bully her into doing what he wants, rather than allowing her to go at her own pace and make her own mind up as she goes along.


----------



## oli_1_uk (Mar 13, 2021)

Shippou-Sensei said:


> I do think it is understandable that I disagree with  a post that  starts of with a line that is a really bad take on the utterly shit time trans men and women (especially trans women) are having in the current cultural climate.
> I think it understandable for me to disagree with a next line that basically says it's down to women to deal with this because men will never change.
> I think it is also understandable of me to disagree with a final point which then places the blame  on women for getting drunk  and implies  that men get a pass if  they do something with someone who wasn't capable of giving proper consent.
> 
> because i really don't agree with all of that.


For the trans part people will take advantage of that, that's a reason you won't see a curfew.
For the other 2 parts there's no blame going around, just a realistic perspective in my opinion.
We agree to disagree


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Mar 13, 2021)

oryx said:


> Car crime and physical violence is pretty endemic, though.
> 
> I'm always quite horrified at the way violence is portrayed and effectively normalised on TV and in films.
> 
> Its normalisation surely has an effect.


It probably does.  How much it does I'm not sure.

The way I described it to students in the past was like this.
Imagine you play a lot of war based first person shooters.  Lot's of playing a person who uses a gun and various other methods to kill enemies.
Do it think you will go out and stab or shoot someone in the street after playing the game? no, of course not.
What if you were later hired as a police officer and were given a gun.  When you saw someone who you defined as a bad guy appear in front of you how much of your previous mindset of using killing as your method of solving problems will influence what you do in those split seconds?
Now from what little I have heard thankfully in the UK military at least de-escalation is a major training point.  That and the disconnect from game to real life means  that the latest batch of soldiers who grew up on playing call of duty  are not overly influenced by that.  Again this is half remembered stuff from documentaries and youtube video essays  so take all that with a pinch of salt


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 13, 2021)

oli_1_uk said:


> Wanting a guy one minute then not the next, dancing provocatively with a guy then pushing him away, kissing him then not speaking with him again, the guy may pursue the woman *but because she wants nothing more she feels harassed. *The guy should leave the girl alone of course, but alochol thrown into the mix can cause a lot of miscommunication from both parties



You need to have a proper think about what you've said here.


----------



## oli_1_uk (Mar 13, 2021)

SheilaNaGig said:


> And what is the guy doing during this encounter?
> 
> Is he doing nothing, being shoved around by this drunk dancing flirting woman? Or is he perhaps being more pushy than she’d like, breaching boundaries, chancing his arm, pushing his luck, being more handsy than she’s comfortable with?
> 
> Maybe it’s not mixed messages, maybe it’s something else, maybe he’s making assumptions about her flirting, how drunk she is, maybe he’s assuming he can force and bully her into doing what he wants, rather than allowing her to go at her own pace and make her own mind up as she goes along.


Again this is where alcohol is involved, people take chances, right or wrong.


----------



## oryx (Mar 13, 2021)

oli_1_uk said:


> Wanting a guy one minute then not the next, dancing provocatively with a guy then pushing him away, kissing him then not speaking with him again, the guy may pursue the woman but because she wants nothing more she feels harassed.



Let's slowly unpick this.

What do you mean by 'wanting a guy one minute then not the next'?


----------



## oli_1_uk (Mar 13, 2021)

SheilaNaGig said:


> You need to have a proper think about what you've said here.


I stand by my comment


----------



## oli_1_uk (Mar 13, 2021)

oryx said:


> Let's slowly unpick this.
> 
> What do you mean by 'wanting a guy one minute then not the next'?


You can interpret it anyway you want


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 13, 2021)

oli_1_uk said:


> I stand by my comment




In that case, I’m going to ask you the explain it to me.


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 13, 2021)

oli_1_uk said:


> You can interpret it anyway you want




That’s not going to fly oli_1_uk


----------



## oryx (Mar 13, 2021)

oli_1_uk said:


> You can interpret it anyway you want


But I'm not asking myself what you mean. I'm asking you.


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Mar 13, 2021)

I think the mixed messages thing boils down to.
She's fit and I think I saw her checking me out.
Cor she is dancing in a way that I find attractive in my general vicinity
what do you mean you're not interested!
Why are you sending me mixed messages?


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 13, 2021)

oli_1_uk said:


> I stand by my comment




You said:

the guy may pursue the woman but because she wants nothing more she feels harassed

In other words, if she changes her mind, or if she feels that the guy has pushed her out of the comfort zone, she feels harassed.

Right?

She feels harassed.
Because she’s been harassed.

Stop harassing women who are dancing drunk ffs! Just don’t do it. Then she won’t feel harassed, because you haven’t harassed her.


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 13, 2021)

oryx said:


> But I'm not asking myself what you mean. I'm asking you.




I’m not sure we’re going to get much in the way of reasoned debate here tbh


----------



## oryx (Mar 13, 2021)

SheilaNaGig said:


> I’m not sure we’re going to get much in the way of reasoned debate here tbh


Well yes...


----------



## oli_1_uk (Mar 13, 2021)

SheilaNaGig said:


> That’s not going to fly oli_1_uk


Neither would a commercial plane without baggage being checked, in an ideal world we wouldn't have to worry about terrorists trying to blow up planes but it's the reality we face.

Women should not suffer these issues but a curfew would discriminate against men, flying in the face of equality.

The message that seems to be out there at the minute is that men are bad, creepy and pervy, in truth we like to look at women and that won't change as we are sexual creatures but we are not looking to rape women (not all of us anyway).

As awful as what happened last week I think the sad truth is that it will be forgotten about next month when places reopen, people are fickle and move on quickly.


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Mar 13, 2021)

Jesus suffering christ...


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Mar 13, 2021)

oli_1_uk said:


> The message that seems to be out there at the minute is that men are bad, creepy and pervy, in truth we like to look at women and that won't change as we are sexual creatures but we are not looking to rape women (not all of us anyway).


Thank you for that wonderful insite.  

Now I think it might be time to take your sexual creature out behind the woodshed and give it the old yeller treatment  it that's the best you can do.


----------



## oli_1_uk (Mar 13, 2021)

Shippou-Sensei said:


> Thank you for that wonderful insite.
> 
> Now I think it might be time to take your sexual creature out behind the woodshed and give it the old yeller treatment  it that's the best you can do.


I understand you don't agree with my comments, just a perspective different than yours, sadly the woke liberals will take this over with "male privilege" like they did with "white privilege" with the BLM movement, more things to divide people than bring them together.

Anyway that's going off topic, have a nice day.


----------



## oryx (Mar 13, 2021)

oli_1_uk said:


> Neither would a commercial plane without baggage being checked, in an ideal world we wouldn't have to worry about terrorists trying to blow up planes but it's the reality we face.
> 
> Women should not suffer these issues but a curfew would discriminate against men, flying in the face of equality.
> 
> ...


So yeah, men are sexual creatures (like women are not? Or maybe in your book we are just teasing, flirting, fickle creatures?). They just can't help themselves being predatory and creepy, even filming themselves forcing sex with underage girls and posting it online.

And equality is really important when it bothers men?

And we should all shut up about it, is effectively what you're saying.

You are part of the problem, with attitudes like that


----------



## oryx (Mar 13, 2021)

oli_1_uk said:


> sadly the woke liberals will take this over with "male privilege" like they did with "white privilege" with the BLM movement,



Says all we need to know about this poster.


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Mar 13, 2021)

oli_1_uk said:


> I understand you don't agree with my comments, just a perspective different than yours, sadly the woke liberals will take this over with "male privilege" like they did with "white privilege" with the BLM movement, more things to divide people than bring them together.
> 
> Anyway that's going off topic, have a nice day.


Yes my perspective is different from yours  but than doesn't automatically make the perspectives even. 
Dangerous Dave who has the collection of baby heads on spikes  has a different opinion than me  but  we don't just agree to disagree.

If the opinions you hold are the same ones used to excuse abhorrent behaviour or try to claim that these things are just the ways things are  and  that we can't change  then you need  to change because otherwise you ARE being the reason why it's difficult to change.  

At the fucking least  if you can't be part of the solution don't remain part of the problem.


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Mar 13, 2021)

oryx said:


> Says all we need to know about this poster.


I was just thinking how much this reminded me of that other issue.

The concept of  'walking while black' is a mirror to 'walking while female'


----------



## bimble (Mar 13, 2021)

oli_1_uk said:


> The message that seems to be out there at the minute is that men are bad, creepy and pervy, in truth we like to look at women and that won't change as we are sexual creatures but we are not looking to rape women (not all of us anyway).


reminds me of this which i saw yesterday.


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## Athos (Mar 13, 2021)

oli_1_uk said:


> Wanting a guy one minute then not the next, dancing provocatively with a guy then pushing him away, kissing him then not speaking with him again, the guy may pursue the woman but because she wants nothing more she feels harassed. The guy should leave the girl alone of course, but alochol thrown into the mix can cause a lot of miscommunication from both parties



I'm not going to unpack all of this (because there's so much wrong with it), but maybe you've inadvertently stumbled on a small practical step we could take as men - club nights with a ground rule that men won't approach women.  Where, if women want to speak to or dance with a man, they'll say so (and you leave them alone unless and until they do).


----------



## LDC (Mar 13, 2021)

Maybe instead of the curfew all women when they get to, say 14 or so years old, should get some training in using a Tazer and then they get one given to them (maybe with some safety feature that makes it only usable by them, sure the tech exists) and they then have an immunity from all prosecution for using it on any men?


----------



## trashpony (Mar 13, 2021)

For all the blokes saying ‘oh this would never work’, if they hadn’t found out what had happened to sarah everard, that’s exactly what women would be told to do. Women were told to stay home when the Yorkshire ripper was at large and when the Cambridge one was.

no one has ever said ‘oh that would never work’. It’s acceptable to curtail women’s freedom  

Orang Utan - I copied a Facebook post from my friend who has a 16 year old daughter on the sofa thread. Your experiences are not uncommon.


----------



## Athos (Mar 13, 2021)

trashpony said:


> For all the blokes saying ‘oh this would never work’, if they hadn’t found out what had happened to sarah everard, that’s exactly what women would be told to do. Women were told to stay home when the Yorkshire ripper was at large and when the Cambridge one was.
> 
> no one has ever said ‘oh that would never work’.



Women have historically been advised to stay in, which is different from being prevented from going out. But I don't think it makes much sense to get drawn into how it would work in practice, because nobody is seriously suggesting it (for obvious civil liberties reasons) - it's just a jumping-off point for a necessary discussion.  Which, quite rightly, looks to shift the burden (for women not being attacked) from women and onto men.


----------



## seeformiles (Mar 13, 2021)

trashpony said:


> Women were told to stay home when the Yorkshire ripper was at large and when the Cambridge one was.



This is what I’m getting flashbacks about and depressed at how little things have changed in 40 years


----------



## Poot (Mar 13, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Maybe instead of the curfew all women when they get to, say 14 or so years old, should get some training in using a Tazer and then they get one given to them (maybe with some safety feature that makes it only usable by them, sure the tech exists) and they then have an immunity from all prosecution for using it on any men?


This puts the responsibility back on women. It sounds a lot like my mother in law who insists that 'in my day we just slapped men' and doesn't understand why that's not really workable or desirable.


----------



## purenarcotic (Mar 13, 2021)

I would love to hear from the men of urban what it is they’re going to do about this. A curfew isn’t going to happen in reality, nor are silly ideas about women tasering men, so it’s pointless talking about it. But perhaps men could tell us what they will be doing differently from now on, to help change things. Male violence is women’s problem because we are victim to it, but it’s men’s problem to ultimately resolve. So what are you going to do next?


----------



## NoXion (Mar 13, 2021)

As a rhetorical provocation, this curfew idea strikes me as being very ill-conceived. Like, I'm sure that it sounds like _great_ rhetoric to people already on board. But I think it falls flat when it comes to convincing the people who need it the most. A curfew for all men sounds like collective punishment, no?

Also, curfews in general are a favoured tool of authoritarian dickheads. I think it's a blunder.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 13, 2021)

bimble said:


> reminds me of this which i saw yesterday.
> View attachment 258505



I mean that is a wonderful idea but I feel obliged to mansplain that _all_ snakes are venomous.


----------



## Idris2002 (Mar 13, 2021)

Rebelda said:


> Totally unsurprising that men are horrified by the suggestion that they are held accountable for male violence. Because appeasing/solving male violence is women's work. If you don't like the sound of a curfew find another way to take responsibility for it.


Curfew for men? File it under "what did you think was going to happen".


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 13, 2021)

NoXion said:


> Also, curfews in general are a favoured tool of authoritarian dickheads. I think it's a blunder.



That eternal victim the middle aged white male is already up in arms about it even though it's pretty clearly not going to happen and is just a thought experiment at this point. But then asking men to think is always worse than expecting women to suffer and die.


----------



## Santino (Mar 13, 2021)

I'm sorry about all the dickheads on this thread, and generally.


----------



## Rimbaud (Mar 13, 2021)

purenarcotic said:


> But perhaps men could tell us what they will be doing differently from now on, to help change things. Male violence is women’s problem because we are victim to it, but it’s men’s problem to ultimately resolve. So what are you going to do next?



I'm really not sure what I can do, other than reflect on my own behaviours and call out sexist attitudes from male friends. If I had male children I could be careful to teach them to respect women. 

But I'm not really sure how much of a big difference that could make. If we're talking about safety for women on the streets after dark, it makes me think that the risk there is from violent predatory types who would hang around in the dark to attack isolated women for their own gratification - I guess this extreme end of behaviour is linked to and enabled by wider social attitudes, but it's quite a lot more difficult to see how I could have any effect on it compared to the more everyday sexism of entitlement and low level harassment which is a lot more relatable. I don't feel like anyone I associate with is likely to be a predatory killer or rapist, at least not the sort of rapist who hangs around at night opportunistically looking for victims, and it doesn't seem like this kind of person is really going to give a shit about what social attitudes are either. 

Apologies if I've missed the point entirely here, just genuinely not sure about how I can make a difference.


----------



## NoXion (Mar 13, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> That eternal victim the middle aged white male is already up in arms about it even though it's pretty clearly not going to happen and is just a thought experiment at this point. But then asking men to think is always worse than expecting women to suffer and die.



I think if the intention of this "thought experiment" was to try reaching such people, then it's an abject failure. The perceived collective punishment aspect is a powerful trigger for defensive moods. Not contemplative ones. I know, logically speaking there's no grounds for it, but we're not dealing with a realm of pure logic, are we?

Side note, I'm so glad I recently knocked Twitter on the head.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Mar 13, 2021)

oli_1_uk said:


> Curfew would not work and it just opens up another can of worms as men could just say they identified as women.
> 
> The sad truth is that women will always be targets as most of the time they are not as physically strong as a man so can be overpowered. Women shouldn't have to take extra steps to protect themselves but it's the sad reality we live in, I don't think there is a clear solution to the problem. Also when you consider places like pubs and nightclubs sexual harassment claims can be more murky as alochol is involved.


Just fuck off.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 13, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> I mean that is a wonderful idea but I feel obliged to mansplain that _all_ snakes are venomous.


Not true. The majority of snakes are clinically non-venomous to humans but may produce toxins venomous to their prey. Boas, Pythons, and some other constrictors produce no bite-delivered toxins and so are genuinely non-venomous.


----------



## Winot (Mar 13, 2021)

purenarcotic said:


> I would love to hear from the men of urban what it is they’re going to do about this. A curfew isn’t going to happen in reality, nor are silly ideas about women tasering men, so it’s pointless talking about it. But perhaps men could tell us what they will be doing differently from now on, to help change things. Male violence is women’s problem because we are victim to it, but it’s men’s problem to ultimately resolve. So what are you going to do next?



I honestly don’t know. I’ve deliberately been cutting out of my life toxic men from the time I was a teen - I just don’t have anything to do with men who outwardly display that behaviour.

So that leaves two classes of men - the ones I don’t know who act without respect and the ones I do know who act without respect but behind closed doors. I have called out the first but only on a few occasions when I was confident I wouldn’t get beaten up. As to the second - there probably have been times when someone I know has said something off colour and I need to get better at getting over the social awkwardness of calling that out.

Happy to listen to any ideas from others though.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Mar 13, 2021)

oli_1_uk said:


> sadly the woke liberals will take this over with "male privilege" like they did with "white privilege" with the BLM movement, more things to divide people than bring them together.


BINGO

I think it's time you left.


----------



## LDC (Mar 13, 2021)

Poot said:


> This puts the responsibility back on women. It sounds a lot like my mother in law who insists that 'in my day we just slapped men' and doesn't understand why that's not really workable or desirable.



No, not responsibility, just protection as unless you think it's possible for things to change overnight then something like that might be needed. But yes, I take the point, but it also wasn't entirely serious.

The serious bit to it is the answer to the question above about what can be done, as depressingly I'm not sure things will actually change that much.


----------



## Orang Utan (Mar 13, 2021)

purenarcotic said:


> I would love to hear from the men of urban what it is they’re going to do about this. A curfew isn’t going to happen in reality, nor are silly ideas about women tasering men, so it’s pointless talking about it. But perhaps men could tell us what they will be doing differently from now on, to help change things. Male violence is women’s problem because we are victim to it, but it’s men’s problem to ultimately resolve. So what are you going to do next?


Speaking up about shit behaviour at work and amongst people you know, even if it feels awkward and if it annoys or embarrasses people - I have had a tiny amount of training on this on the work side and it was pointed out that it is everyone’s responsibility to ensure their colleagues are kept safe and are not harassed or discriminated against - if we spot something potentially dangerous at work, it’s our responsibility to report it. It’s drummed into us from a H&S angle to report curling rugs, blocked fire doors, dodgy electrics, so why not office creeps too?  We should extend this sense of responsibility outside work of course. And men must be aware that the consequences of speaking out could be less costly for them than it could be for their female colleagues/friends etc. Having an awkward conversation and feeling momentarily unpopular amongst peers is surely preferable than being harassed and attacked and persecuted? Don’t assume that a woman is ok with another man’s behaviour just cos she doesn’t complain or laugh it off. If you think something’s wrong, say so. 
We can also examine our own past behaviour and think about how it might/almost certainly have contributed to this toxic macho culture. 
Be vigilant when out and about and challenge cat callers and harassers in public. 
I’m sure there’s loads more things we could do, but I haven’t had my coffee yet.


----------



## JuanTwoThree (Mar 13, 2021)

Shippou-Sensei said:


> However we don't expect people to go out and start beating up people and stealing cars just because they play GTAV 5 hours a day



Obviously some people think other people can be influenced by sounds and images: advertisers.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Mar 13, 2021)

I'm luckily in a position to help educate about 130 male students and part of that is challenging and rerouting some of the already-ingrained attitudes the world bombards them with. I'm also very aware of lone women or girls if I'm out when it's dark - I rarely get home before six and to go out - and I'm aware I'm a big fella with a shaved head in black, mostly, so I slow down, speed up, cross roads, etc. Challenging jokes, too, I don't stand for sexist or racist stuff and say so.

Not sure what else I could do

ETA try harder not to be a dick like I've been in the past, especially in my twenties but on occasion still


----------



## kabbes (Mar 13, 2021)

I've got to admit that at this point, I'm pretty despairing of what can be done.  Even the way the whole subject is framed means that it isn't going to be resolved.  It gets discussed in terms of individuals -- individual decisions, individual behaviours, individual freedoms, individual _nature_.  But this isn't a problem of "the individual".  In fact, it is the prevailing culture of society, in which people are thought of as distinct individuals that kind of meander their way throught life by bumping off other individuals like billiard balls or atoms, that is the very heart of this problem.  It's what allows us to carve off other entities as "not-us" and objectify them.  Sometimes that objectification means that we give them the lowest wage that we can get away with and not worry ourselves about the consequences on their lives.  Sometimes that objectification means that we see them as objects of sexual gratification that can be raped and murdered.  Either way, it comes from a lack of empathy, which derives from not understanding that our fellow humans exist in a social web with us, and that we are defined by those interactions, not by some kind of totally isolated, intra-psychic essence of the self.

In the 1970s and 1980s, it seemed like we might be getting somewhere with this.  There was focus on social reproduction, emotional labour, self-commodification and how power relations subjectify indivduals into accepting their -- and others' -- place in their hierarchy.  This led to looking at what the historic role of women had been and how to respect these roles more.  But then neoliberalism fought back and gave us the trappings of equality whilst privatising the way labour is able to reproduce itself.  The result was further self-commodification and the message that any problems you still face, women, are now all on you -- after all, we've given you equality, what more do you want?  

Women still faced structural inequality everywhere but the language to talk about it was increasingly lost or removed -- it's all about _choice_!  And if you make the wrong _choices,_ well, that's all on you.  Tough shit.  So get those exams, women, and enter the meritocratic system!  But when you get there, still be _feminine_, still be a _woman_, which involves all the things you shouldn't do as a woman, like challenge authority.  Be good, but not _too_ good.  Be professional but make sure you don't look like a man.  Make sure you consult the fashion-beauty complex to ensure everyone knows you are feminine as well as successful.  Be girl power!  You're in control of your sexual freedom, but don't be too free.  It's all on _you_ now.

In a world in which choice is king, how is it anybody else's responsibility to direct the choices of others?

I am aware that this is a lament, not constructive.  What am I doing?  I've spent decades trying to point out the practical effects of this kind of objectification and atomisation in day to day life.  Every time I hear men talking in a way that objectifies in _all _its forms -- not just sexual objectification -- I raise the problem.  It's done nothing except isolate me.  People know what I think and they don't care.  I can't fight the entire social environment just by saying things to people.  It's hopeless.


----------



## bimble (Mar 13, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> Speaking up about shit behaviour at work and amongst people you know, even if it feels awkward and if it annoys or embarrasses people ..


yes this, please. One time i was walking home along coldharbour lane and two drunk young men in suits behind me, and then one of them started hassling me, remarking to his mate about me as if i wasn't there, then loudly asking me stupid questions, touching my arm and crowding me and his friend did and said nothing, until it was over i'd accellorated and said leave me in peace and then he said really quietly sorry about that. 
He could have stopped the whole stupid thing with a word but didn't have the courage, didn't want to seem uncool in front of his mate or something.  They were estate agents, i remember that for some reason don't know how that came out


----------



## Treacle Toes (Mar 13, 2021)

oli_1_uk said:


> I understand you don't agree with my comments, just a perspective different than yours, sadly the woke liberals will take this over with "male privilege" like they did with "white privilege" with the BLM movement, more things to divide people than bring them together.
> 
> Anyway that's going off topic, have a nice day.



oli, oli, oli, fuck right off!

Always loved that chant.


----------



## 8ball (Mar 13, 2021)

Thread is depressing on so many levels.


----------



## bellaozzydog (Mar 13, 2021)

I’ve done the “just stop it” conversation twice with groups of men i’ve been in pubs with

Both times it went down really badly. It’s seems blokes are incredibly uncomfortable when they a “given a lecture” and play the “it’s just a bit of fun” card


Last year during eat out to help out with a friend of a friend in his 40s who incessantly  and very obviously leered at a young bar worker and repeatedly try to engage in conversation with her when she went passed our table. She was obviously uncomfortable with this behaviour 

being told women aren’t there  for your entertainment, they aren’t out solely to be picked up and it’s insanely unlikely they are attracted to some drunk twat 20 years older than them really upsets men.

I did it with a group of middle class married friends I’ve know since the early 90s the “it’s just a bit of fun” card got played.
Asking how they would feel if it was their daughters on the receiving end of a group of drunken 40+ men           Made for an uncomfortable atmosphere 

both times the the message was received as “spoiling the night” and the question “what the fucks wrong with BellaOzzyDog, miserable twat”

lockdown has meant I’ve seen neither groups since.

My take on it is that your normal everyday bloke genuinely thinks because he isn’t out there at night with a ski mask and a claw hammer attacking women and has a wife and family that he isn’t contributing to issue of women’s safety

the disconnect is startlingly obvious when you juxtapose a mixed pub night out with partners versus “blokes only”, the pinnacle of this being stag dos

Men in my experience seem to actively want to uncouple from the “civilising” effect of their partners and exhibit these shit patterns of behaviour, which would really upset them if they thought women in their family were exposed to it

it’s a cultural disregard for women. I was in my local with my sister one night and every man at the bar (we knew them all and all their partners)  had their mobile phones on the bar and as partners rang or texted themin turn, dismissed the beeps and rings with scorn and or “humorous” derogatory  comments

The message being the age old “her indoors” dismissiveness

my sister realised that this was exactly what was happening when she texted her partner to see when he was coming home. She was understandable fucking irate observing it in real time from the other side

When twats turn up on urban using the term “liberal woke” for behaviour that is just decency and respect for other humans there is along way to go to start fixing these issues

The mention of a men’s curfew unfortunately feeds into the culture war, pc/woke gorn mad situation we are in now.

The presentation of extreme hypothetical solutions to a problem which needs concerted long term multi generational changes in attitudes in society is a risky tactic
People will have conversations on social media but the people who need to be involved in these conversations may already have been alienated polarised by the conversation and end up in the #NotAllMen Daily Mail woke gone mad team

I think things are changing slowly for the better. My housemates all mid 20s have noticeably different attitudes to my generation and my nephews, step nephews and their friends have a much healthier respectful kinder attitudes to a wide range of issues, gender, sexuality, relationships, mental health etc

schools seem to be doing something right


----------



## Sue (Mar 13, 2021)

bimble said:


> yes this, please. One time i was walking home along coldharbour lane and two drunk young men in suits behind me, and then one of them started hassling me, remarking to his mate about me as if i wasn't there, then loudly asking me stupid questions, touching my arm and crowding me and his friend did and said nothing, until it was over i'd accellorated and said leave me in peace and then he said really quietly sorry about that.
> He could have stopped the whole stupid thing with a word but didn't have the courage, didn't want to seem uncool in front of his mate or something.  They were estate agents, i remember that for some reason don't know how that came out


Oh God, the man apologising for (actually, more often than not excusing) the unacceptable behaviour of his friend after the fact thing. 

Whenever this has happened and I've said 'you shouldn't be apologising/excusing your mate to me, you should be telling him his behaviour is unacceptable and why and not after it's all over either', it's been met with incomprehension or them getting annoyed at my lack of grace in accepting their 'apology'. 😡


----------



## 8ball (Mar 13, 2021)

Sue said:


> Oh God, the man apologising for (actually, more often than not excusing) the unacceptable behaviour of his friend after the fact thing.
> 
> Whenever this has happened and I've said 'you shouldn't be apologising/excusing your mate to me, you should be telling him his behaviour is unacceptable and why and not after it's all over either', it's been met with incomprehension or them getting annoyed at my lack of grace in accepting their 'apology'. 😡



Guess it’s possible the idiot was also a bit of a violent twat and his mate (the apologiser) was intimidated by him.


----------



## Sue (Mar 13, 2021)

8ball said:


> Guess it’s possible the idiot was also a bit of a violent twat and his mate (the apologiser) was intimidated by him.


Given the number of times this happens, there must be load and loads of men who're intimidated by their friends.   If that were me, I'd be getting myself some new friends.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Mar 13, 2021)

bellaozzydog your post reminded me of the few times I have been called a 'cock blocker' for intervening when i've seen men behaving in leechy/entitled ways with other women in bars/clubs. I was made to feel that it was more a case of me being jealous that _that_ attention wasn't being directed at me also.


----------



## 8ball (Mar 13, 2021)

Sue said:


> Given the number of times this happens, there must be load and loads of men who're intimidated by their friends.   If that were me, I'd be getting myself some new friends.



Really shit that this has happened so often.  And yeah, with young guys (in my generation at least) it wasn’t so uncommon for groups of lads to have a ‘Begbie’ among them.


----------



## chilango (Mar 13, 2021)

We have a climate at the moment, being whipped up by the Government and the media, where "calling out" shit behaviour (be it racism, sexism, transphobia or whatever) is met by entitled defensiveness and a doubling down both on the original behaviour and their "right" to do it.

It's shit.

...and frightening.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Mar 13, 2021)

8ball said:


> Guess it’s possible the idiot was also a bit of a violent twat and his mate (the apologiser) was intimidated by him.



I don't reach for that excuse first. I've had the same happen and it was more that they knew their friend's behaviour was wrong but their loyality, in the moment, was to be a wing man, because their friend 'deserved' to act up, cos you know, just being a bloke, banter LOL


----------



## Sue (Mar 13, 2021)

8ball said:


> Really shit that this has happened so often.  And yeah, with young guys (in my generation at least) it wasn’t so uncommon for groups of lads to have a ‘Begbie’ among them.


Happens. And this isn't just younger men either or big groups of lads.


----------



## 8ball (Mar 13, 2021)

Rutita1 said:


> bellaozzydog your post reminded me of the few times I have been called a 'cock blocker' for intervening when i've seen men behaving in leechy/entitled ways with other women in bars/clubs. I was made to feel that it was more a case of me being jealous that _that_ attention wasn't being directed at me also.



I know this is like a fart in a tornado regards the bigger problem, but I wonder whether better education (not just for the very young) in terms of reading body language might help a tiny bit.  There are so many men out there that can’t get it through their skull that a woman isn’t interested.


----------



## quimcunx (Mar 13, 2021)

bellaozzydog said:


> I’ve done the “just stop it” conversation twice with groups of men i’ve been in pubs with
> 
> Both times it went down really badly. It’s seems blokes are incredibly uncomfortable when they a “given a lecture” and play the “it’s just a bit of fun” card
> 
> ...



Not many people take being told off very well, especially in public.  Most of us, especially if drinking, will be a bit belligerent and try to style it out if someone calls us out when were being dicks.  However the more likely they are to be called out on it the less likely they are to keep doing it. It's not much fun if your peers arent jollying you along.  

So keep doing it. It makes a difference. Also when other men or women who are uncomfortable with their behaviour see you it will encourage them to speak out too.


----------



## 8ball (Mar 13, 2021)

Rutita1 said:


> I don't reach for that excuse first. I've had the same happen and it was more that they knew their friend's behaviour was wrong but their loyality, in the moment, was to be a wing man, because their friend 'deserved' to act up, cos you know, just being a bloke, banter LOL



The fact that they apologised makes it obvious that they know a line was crossed.  The ‘wing man’ thing is really pathetic.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Mar 13, 2021)

8ball said:


> The fact that they apologised makes it obvious that they know a line was crossed.  The ‘wing man’ thing is really pathetic.



Yes they knew he had crossed a line but still let it happen and only apologised afterwards thinking I would realise _they_ were actually a decent bloke. It didn't make me realise that. It made me realise that they valued their friend's right to harrass me more than my rights not to be harrassed.


----------



## planetgeli (Mar 13, 2021)

Got to looking at some sexual assault stats last night. England & Wales is depressingly way ahead of everyone else. Like almost three times the number, per head of population, to the nearest other country in Europe (if you discount Sweden who count differently apparently).









						Which EU countries have the highest rate of sex crimes?
					

Eighty per cent of sexual assualt victims are women. The UN's International Day for the Elimination of Violence against Women aims to stop this and other violence against women from happening




					www.euronews.com


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## kabbes (Mar 13, 2021)

8ball said:


> I know this is like a fart in a tornado regards the bigger problem, but I wonder whether better education (not just for the very young) in terms of reading body language might help a tiny bit.  There are so many men out there that can’t get it through their skull that a woman isn’t interested.


This is still making it about an atomised self making better choices.  It’s still about objectifying the other and just finding more technically accurate ways of interacting with that object.  It’s what I mean when I say that the entire way this debate is framed starts from the very assumptions about how society works that guarantee that the problem will not be resolved.

I’m not having a go at you, personally.  I understand how this looks like a useful suggestion and there’s way more egregious behaviour than this!  But it’s a useful illustration of what I’m trying to say.


----------



## kabbes (Mar 13, 2021)

planetgeli said:


> Got to looking at some sexual assault stats last night. England & Wales is depressingly way ahead of everyone else. Like almost three times the number, per head of population, to the nearest other country in Europe (if you discount Sweden who count differently apparently).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Almost like the anglophone countries come from a more intensively consumer-capitalist ethos than others, isn’t it?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Mar 13, 2021)

8ball said:


> I know this is like a fart in a tornado regards the bigger problem, but I wonder whether better education (not just for the very young) in terms of reading body language might help a tiny bit.  There are so many men out there that can’t get it through their skull that a woman isn’t interested.



Education isn't a one off experience.

Education isn't only for school or college.

Education isn't just for the young.

We are all 'teachers' , 'students' and 'mentors' because of that.


----------



## Winot (Mar 13, 2021)

kabbes said:


> This is still making it about an atomised self making better choices.  It’s still about objectifying the other and just finding more technically accurate ways of interacting with that object.  It’s what I mean when I say that the entire way this debate is framed starts from the very assumptions about how society works that guarantee that the problem will not be resolved.
> 
> I’m not having a go at you, personally.  I understand how this looks like a useful suggestion and there’s way more egregious behaviour than this!  But it’s a useful illustration of what I’m trying to say.



As a balance to your post above, there are still some non-atomised parts of society. I am thinking specifically of churches/mosques/synagogues but I’m sure there are secular examples.


----------



## 8ball (Mar 13, 2021)

Rutita1 said:


> Yes they knew he had crossed a line but still let it happen and only apologised afterwards thinking I would realise _they_ were actually a decent bloke. It didn't make me realise that. It made me realise that they valued their friend's right to harrass me more than my rights not to be harrassed.



Yeah, sadly can’t disagree.


----------



## Athos (Mar 13, 2021)

purenarcotic said:


> I would love to hear from the men of urban what it is they’re going to do about this. A curfew isn’t going to happen in reality, nor are silly ideas about women tasering men, so it’s pointless talking about it. But perhaps men could tell us what they will be doing differently from now on, to help change things. Male violence is women’s problem because we are victim to it, but it’s men’s problem to ultimately resolve. So what are you going to do next?


Good question. I guess re-examine my own attitudes and behaviour; a lot of listening; try to set a good example to the young people in my life; discuss this issue with other men much more; do more to challenge any inappropriate I come across; the practical things that might put women more at ease e.g. hang back so I'm not walking close to them; and, continue to press for changes to the law, and for better provision for women's services. Plus anything else that I can think of, or that anyone can recommend (without putting the onus on anyone else to come up with ideas).


----------



## 8ball (Mar 13, 2021)

kabbes said:


> This is still making it about an atomised self making better choices.  It’s still about objectifying the other and just finding more technically accurate ways of interacting with that object.  It’s what I mean when I say that the entire way this debate is framed starts from the very assumptions about how society works that guarantee that the problem will not be resolved.
> 
> I’m not having a go at you, personally.  I understand how this looks like a useful suggestion and there’s way more egregious behaviour than this!  But it’s a useful illustration of what I’m trying to say.



I really don’t think it illustrates anything like that at all.  Communicating better with people is hardly a shortcut to atomisation or objectification.


----------



## neonwilderness (Mar 13, 2021)

S☼I said:


> I'm also very aware of lone women or girls if I'm out when it's dark - I rarely get home before six and to go out - and I'm aware I'm a big fella with a shaved head in black, mostly, so I slow down, speed up, cross roads, etc.


I've become a lot more aware of this during the recent lockdowns as everywhere is quieter (particularly when I've been exercising in the evening when it's dark) and have been a bit more conscious to make sure no one things I might be following them by crossing the road, going a different way or whatever. I don't think I'm a particularly intimidating person, but maybe on a quiet street at night someone else might think differently.



quimcunx said:


> So keep doing it. It makes a difference. Also when other men or women who are uncomfortable with their behaviour see you it will encourage them to speak out too.


I think this is the important thing. Once one person speaks up then it's likely that a few more will start to chip in. I know that's easier said than done, but the more it happens hopefully the easier it'll be.


----------



## Zapp Brannigan (Mar 13, 2021)

purenarcotic said:


> I would love to hear from the men of urban what it is they’re going to do about this. A curfew isn’t going to happen in reality, nor are silly ideas about women tasering men, so it’s pointless talking about it. But perhaps men could tell us what they will be doing differently from now on, to help change things. Male violence is women’s problem because we are victim to it, but it’s men’s problem to ultimately resolve. So what are you going to do next?



First thing is to acknowledge that I'm part of the problem.  If the world was as simple as "is this man a predatory rapist and/or murderer, yes/no", then no of course I'm not.  But it's not that simple, every single man registers somewhere to some extent on the sliding scale that runs from saint to Ghengis Khan.  I need to think more about how my actions affect other people, specifically women - from things I knowingly do to being more aware of things I might unknowingly do. 

As an example, that heightened sense of awareness that women have to have when walking anywhere - I should have that.  Me just bimbling along on my way home in a world of my own, I know I'm not a threat to anyone.  But others around me don't know me, I need to take responsibility and accept that "I wasn't doing anything" isn't good enough. 

There seems to be this idea that the next step has to be "everyone needs to convince a rapist not to be a rapist".  I don't think that's realistic or practical - more that I need to make sure that I'm as far down the sliding scale as I can possibly be (in terms of both behaviour and external perception), and any time anywhere I can be in a position of influence with other men (be it my stepson, my friends, my work colleagues, or a complete stranger) I can do whatever it takes to bring them back a step or two as well.  Something akin to the Overton window in politics, individual and collectivist action to shift the entire narrative.


----------



## Clair De Lune (Mar 13, 2021)

bellaozzydog said:


> I’ve done the “just stop it” conversation twice with groups of men i’ve been in pubs with
> 
> Both times it went down really badly. It’s seems blokes are incredibly uncomfortable when they a “given a lecture” and play the “it’s just a bit of fun” card
> 
> ...


This is an important bit imo. The way some men (quite a lot actually ...in work, at the pub, with friends or in sports teams etc)  change completely when there are no women about. This is something common which men can call out before it escalates. Why are you talking differently now your wife/girlfriend isn't here? To challenge the attitude that loving your wife and having respect for her as a human being means you're pussy whipped.  Because guys get swept up in this and fall into line with the group even if they secretly hate the laddish 'locker room' chat. It's really creepy to overhear this shit as a woman. To hear 'nice guys' change their tone and act like a boys club makes us feel like the nice guy shit is an act to get us into bed, convince us to get married or have your children and leach off our kindness and naivety.  Ugh.


----------



## Cid (Mar 13, 2021)

planetgeli said:


> Got to looking at some sexual assault stats last night. England & Wales is depressingly way ahead of everyone else. Like almost three times the number, per head of population, to the nearest other country in Europe (if you discount Sweden who count differently apparently).
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Without wishing to go too far off the rails, what applies to Sweden will also apply to England and Wales to an extent. Recording and reporting practices in the police have changed substantially over the last couple of decades, particularly since 2013/14 (major report highlighting signifiant under-recording)... So if you look at the raw statistics over that period you will see a huge rise. But if you look at survey data (section 5, figure 3), which should provide a better picture as it's self-reported, anonymised etc you see a slight decrease in sexual violence. It is basically very difficult to compare these things across countries, and using the raw recorded crime statistics tends to make countries that have improved their practices look worse.


----------



## Poot (Mar 13, 2021)

Zapp Brannigan said:


> First thing is to acknowledge that I'm part of the problem.  If the world was as simple as "is this man a predatory rapist and/or murderer, yes/no", then no of course I'm not.  But it's not that simple, every single man registers somewhere to some extent on the sliding scale that runs from saint to Ghengis Khan.  I need to think more about how my actions affect other people, specifically women - from things I knowingly do to being more aware of things I might unknowingly do.
> 
> As an example, that heightened sense of awareness that women have to have when walking anywhere - I should have that.  Me just bimbling along on my way home in a world of my own, I know I'm not a threat to anyone.  But others around me don't know me, I need to take responsibility and accept that "I wasn't doing anything" isn't good enough.
> 
> There seems to be this idea that the next step has to be "everyone needs to convince a rapist not to be a rapist".  I don't think that's realistic or practical - more that I need to make sure that I'm as far down the sliding scale as I can possibly be (in terms of both behaviour and external perception), and any time anywhere I can be in a position of influence with other men (be it my stepson, my friends, my work colleagues, or a complete stranger) I can do whatever it takes to bring them back a step or two as well.  Something akin to the Overton window in politics, individual and collectivist action to shift the entire narrative.


This is all true.

I think sometimes men are 'other-ed' when they do something shameful. Like when you hear about a man beating up a partner and people say, 'well, of course, he's not a real man if he does that.'  Well, yes, I'm afraid it must be accepted that he _is_ a man. As a starting point. Real men don't hurt women? Well, yes, they do. No matter how painful it is for men to get their head around, those monsters are still men I'm afraid.


----------



## Edie (Mar 13, 2021)

I think a lot differently to the ideas being expressed in this thread but at the moment with clearly a lot of women feeling very upset I don’t think it’s the time to be expressing them. For the record.


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 13, 2021)

Just fucking talk to each other.

It’s not enough to pull your brothers up and call them out for crappy behaviour in the moment. You need, all of you need to change the way that will land, by changing the fact that you don’t have any conversations about women’s rights .

Because you don’t, do you, not with each other.

You might be teaching gender politics to youngsters, or even older males, but I ask again: when was the last time you had a calm normal general conversation with your men friends about women? This conversation right now: have you ever had a similar conversation with men when women weren’t there?

If yes, is it enough, is it with the same one or two people and never more openly? Is it often enough? Because only talking about it when something horrible happens, or when #metoo is trending isn’t enough.

It needs to be part of your ongoing general discourse. You need to share ideas with each other, cos were out of ideas, frankly. We keep saying the same things, trying the new things, and yet here we still are.

You need to be comfortable chatting about it so that when you do have cause to call someone out, or step in to pull one of your brothers back, you’re not breaking the code. Cos that’s why Bimble’s estate agent didn’t step in, not because he was scared his mate would turn into a Begbie, but because he couldn’t break ranks and go against the fucking code.

In most cases it’s not fear of rage that stops you, it’s fear of being laughed at, being mocked 

Break ranks. Break the code.

When I’ve said this to men irl they say to me “how do I do that? I don’t know how to start this conversation”. Well I don’t fucking know do I! If men don’t know how to talk to each other, that’s not something women can fix, is it. 

Put your house in order men. Please.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Mar 13, 2021)

Edie said:


> I think a lot differently to the ideas being expressed in this thread but at the moment with clearly a lot of women feeling very upset I don’t think it’s the time to be expressing them. For the record.



Oh come off it Edie You want in and to express them so crack on. DId someone tag you and ask you to speak?  Of course not, that would be odd...please don't do the mystery, for the record thing. Having different views doesn't stop you generally does it?


----------



## chilango (Mar 13, 2021)

SheilaNaGig I can't remember the last time I had a conversation just with other men. I don't think I've been in a situation where I've been just with other men for about 6 or 7 years tbh.

I'm not disagreeing with your point btw, just musing to myself about what I should be doing...


----------



## killer b (Mar 13, 2021)

chilango said:


> I can't remember the last time I had a conversation just with other men.


I was just thinking this. 'what conversations with other men?'

I suspect this is very widespread, and also part of the problem.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Mar 13, 2021)

chilango said:


> We have a climate at the moment, being whipped up by the Government and the media, where "calling out" shit behaviour (be it racism, sexism, transphobia or whatever) is met by entitled defensiveness and a doubling down both on the original behaviour and their "right" to do it.
> 
> It's shit.
> 
> ...and frightening.



Again, I think you are half right in that you seem to suggest the battle is only being waged by one side. It’s not. This is a debate that needs to be had but not on this thread.

Where I think you are on the money is that the ‘debate’ on this issue this week has been especially depressing and illuminating.

All of us on here see the extent of the problem every day. It’s everywhere, it’s persistent, it’s multi generational, it crosses class and race, it’s embedded in our culture and it’s something I saw as a kid and I see still as a middle aged man. My wife, no shrinking violet and never slow to fight fire with fire endures it every week of her life with a comment, a gesture or just someone coming the cunt. At work, on the street, in the shops: everywhere. All the time.

Yet the discourse we (the ‘nation’, the society, the culture) have increasingly collapsed into on this and everything else increasingly emphasises division and searching for and seizing upon comments on both sides that further cleave people apart and that deliberately seek out emphasise and create further division. It’s a toxic process.

Instead of finding points of unity and building out from there the emphasis is now _always_ on finding division which then flows out into wider divides and enmities. It’s demobilising, corrosive and frankly fucking depressing.

We collectively need to think where that approach leads, in whose interests it operates, what it results in when we try to mobilise and the immediate and longer term consequences for our politics in becoming participants in it. Having a row on a message board is fine but what I’m talking about is radioactive and flowing into every part of society and life.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Mar 13, 2021)

Good thread. Mebbes Curfew is a non stater and could well be counter productive. Sadly until “men” take this on board on call it out at all levels , I don’t see much changing. Not that men should be have a go heroes but the the seeping tacitly accepted toxic attitudes have to be tackled


----------



## Treacle Toes (Mar 13, 2021)

.... on the men speaking to other men front....this can happen in all arenas and at all levels...on the other thread we were discussing just how many TV shows have male on female violence as central to the narrative/entertainment value..that's men speaking to men, and women.


----------



## killer b (Mar 13, 2021)

Rutita1 said:


> .... on the men speaking to other men front....this can happen in all arenas and at all levels...on the other thread we were discussing just how many TV shows have male on female violence as central to the narrative/entertainment value..that's men speaking to men, and women.


I shared a link to that documentary on facebook in the hope of starting a conversation, and it got a tenth of the likes of my other update yesterday about my cute kids, and no actual replies. The only men who liked it are already posting on this thread.


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 13, 2021)

Winot said:


> I honestly don’t know. I’ve deliberately been cutting out of my life toxic men from the time I was a teen - I just don’t have anything to do with men who outwardly display that behaviour.
> 
> So that leaves two classes of men - the ones I don’t know who act without respect and the ones I do know who act without respect but behind closed doors. I have called out the first but only on a few occasions when I was confident I wouldn’t get beaten up. As to the second - there probably have been times when someone I know has said something off colour and I need to get better at getting over the social awkwardness of calling that out.
> 
> Happy to listen to any ideas from others though.





chilango said:


> SheilaNaGig I can't remember the last time I had a conversation just with other men. I don't think I've been in a situation where I've been just with other men for about 6 or 7 years tbh.
> 
> I'm not disagreeing with your point btw, just musing to myself about what I should be doing...





killer b said:


> I was just thinking this. 'what conversations with other men?'
> 
> I suspect this is very widespread, and also part of the problem.





Yes, exactly. This is what I hear men tell me, and I do think it’s part of the problem.

You need to break the patterns imposed on you by the patriarchy. And I reckon that talking with each other has to be a part of that. The ones who are more emotionally courageous can demonstrate to others that you don’t melt or explode when you talk about your feelings, and others will take courage from that.

Talk to each other. It’s great that you talk with your wives, sisters, women friends, daughters, mums and aunties about your feelings (those of you who do that...) ; but you’ve got to start talking to each other. Because only men know what it’s like to be a man. How are you supposed to tackle things like male on male violence, the awful suicide rates, workers rights for men, the changing role of men, paternity leave and yes, your collective misogyny, if you don’t talk about these things with each other?

If you talked more with each other, maybe you’d have a better idea about how to tackle the friend with the really shitty attitudes, maybe it would be easier to call out the sexist, maybe it would be easier to stand up to the Begsbie.


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 13, 2021)

Rutita1 said:


> Oh come off it Edie You want in and to express them so crack on. DId someone tag you and ask you to speak?  Of course not, that would be odd...please don't do the mystery, for the record thing. Having different views doesn't stop you generally does it?




Actually, Edie I was thinking that you probably had a different take in some of this and wondered where you were.


----------



## killer b (Mar 13, 2021)

SheilaNaGig said:


> maybe you’d have a better idea about how to tackle the friend with the really shitty attitudes, maybe it would be easier to call out the sexist, maybe it would be easier to stand up to the Begsbie.


tbh I do all that. But I'm rarely in social situations these days (not just the last year) where those shitty attitudes are on display.


----------



## oli_1_uk (Mar 13, 2021)

Athos said:


> I'm not going to unpack all of this (because there's so much wrong with it), but maybe you've inadvertently stumbled on a small practical step we could take as men - club nights with a ground rule that men won't approach women.  Where, if women want to speak to or dance with a man, they'll say so (and you leave them alone unless and until they do).


One question I'm thinking with that approach is that how would it be policed? Men on 1 side of the room and women on the other? Also would there have to be a 3rd area for transgender people or can they choose which side they go on?


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 13, 2021)

killer b said:


> tbh I do all that. But I'm rarely in social situations these days (not just the last year) where those shitty attitudes are on display.




Again,

This is what I’m hearing men say.

Decent men end up not hanging out with other men.

What’s up with that?!

I mean seriously. 

What the fuck is up with that?!


----------



## Orang Utan (Mar 13, 2021)

oli_1_uk said:


> One question I'm thinking with that approach is that how would it be policed? Men on 1 side of the room and women on the other? Also would there have to be a 3rd area for transgender people or can they choose which side they go on?


How about everyone dancing together and keeping their fucking hands to themselves?


----------



## Orang Utan (Mar 13, 2021)

SheilaNaGig said:


> Again,
> 
> This is what I’m hearing men say.
> 
> ...


Who wants to hang out with dickheads?


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 13, 2021)

Why is it that decent men choose not to hang out with men...



(Crass generalisation going on here, but I think you see what I’m saying )


----------



## killer b (Mar 13, 2021)

SheilaNaGig said:


> Again,
> 
> This is what I’m hearing men say.
> 
> ...


I used to, but when I stopped drinking the opportunities became much more limited. I've yet to find a satisfactory solution to that one.


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 13, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> Who wants to hang out with dickheads?




Come on, sort this shit out.

Women don’t want to hang out with dickheads either, but they impose themselves on us.

You get to avoid them, we don’t.


----------



## Winot (Mar 13, 2021)

SheilaNaGig said:


> Why is it that decent men choose not to hang out with men...
> 
> 
> 
> (Crass generalisation going on here, but I think you see what I’m saying )



I hang out with plenty of decent men. Just not dickheads.


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 13, 2021)

killer b said:


> I used to, but when I stopped drinking the opportunities became much more limited. I've yet to find a satisfactory solution to that one.




Well they still go about being dicks. They don’t disappear of the face of the planet.

And they sure as shit don’t pay any attention to what we want, say, hope.

So it sometimes feels as if you've left us to our fate with these dicks.


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 13, 2021)

Winot said:


> I hang out with plenty of decent men. Just not dickheads.




And do you and your friends talk together about women’s rights, gender politics, sexism and so forth?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Mar 13, 2021)

SheilaNaGig said:


> Actually, Edie I was thinking that you probably had a different take in some of this and wondered where you were.



Did you really? It hadn't occurred to me to wonder where anyone man or woman is/was. People have lives, other stuff that needs attention etc.


----------



## Athos (Mar 13, 2021)

oli_1_uk said:


> One question I'm thinking with that approach is that how would it be policed? Men on 1 side of the room and women on the other? Also would there have to be a 3rd area for transgender people or can they choose which side they go on?



No, people can mingle, but the expectation is that men won't approach women without invitation. That'd be clear to anyone who went to that venue/night.  If they don't like it, they needn't attend. And if they break the rules they'll be asked to leave. Simple.


----------



## Winot (Mar 13, 2021)

SheilaNaGig said:


> And do you and your friends talk together about women’s rights, gender politics, sexism and so forth?



No, I admit, we rarely do.


----------



## Zapp Brannigan (Mar 13, 2021)

SheilaNaGig said:


> Again,
> 
> This is what I’m hearing men say.
> 
> ...



I hang out with other decent men, I wouldn't want to associate with those I consider dickheads.  However, even these men (me included) are capable of dickhead behaviour from time to time.  I am one to call it out, as are they, but what I do realise is that we all have been setting the bar too high for what is considered dickhead behaviour.  That stops now.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Mar 13, 2021)




----------



## Edie (Mar 13, 2021)

Rutita1 said:


> Oh come off it Edie You want in and to express them so crack on. DId someone tag you and ask you to speak?  Of course not, that would be odd...please don't do the mystery, for the record thing. Having different views doesn't stop you generally does it?


It doesn’t generally. But I am actually trying to be sensitive because I know a lot of women here are genuinely upset.


----------



## Orang Utan (Mar 13, 2021)

SheilaNaGig said:


> Come on, sort this shit out.
> 
> Women don’t want to hang out with dickheads either, but they impose themselves on us.
> 
> You get to avoid them, we don’t.


Not sure how we’re supposed to hang out with people we don’t like. Also, maybe it’s just the friendship groups I have, but I’ve never been in any all male groups


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 13, 2021)

Rutita1 said:


> Did you really? It hadn't occurred to me to wonder where anyone man or woman is/was. People have lives, other stuff that needs attention etc.




 

I wasn’t _expecting_ her to be here.


Okay, “wondering” wasn’t the right word.

Or, “wondering where she was” was inaccurate.

I wondered what she might say about this.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Mar 13, 2021)

Edie said:


> It doesn’t generally. But I am actually trying to be sensitive because I know a lot of women here are genuinely upset.



I get that. My post was more that if you are being sensitive posting what you did and building intrigue seems odd to me. That's all.

On the men not hanging out with dickheads thing... I totally get that. We're all much more discerning about our friendship groups as we get older aren't we? I certainly have distanced myself from other females whose attitudes and behaviour I find problematic....and I can't imagine any of the regular urban men admitting to being part of the worse of toxic male culture for the same reason.


----------



## bimble (Mar 13, 2021)

Athos said:


> No, people can mingle, but the expectation is that men won't approach women without invitation. That'd be clear to anyone who went to that venue/night.  If they don't like it, they needn't attend. And if they break the rules they'll be asked to leave. Simple.


I would absolutely love this. I have close women friends who would maybe not want to come to that night but it would be heaven for people like me who just really want to dance and have evolved all sorts of weird ideas of how to do that, alone, whilst signalling loud & clear somehow to people like ‘Oli’ there that it’s not “provocative” it’s just dancing.
This means long sleeved tops whilst sweating, not doing certain sort of movements, tying a top round yr waist so nobody thinks you’re trying to show off yr bum, it all sounds insane when I write it out like that. I’m not saying these behaviours are in any way reasonable but they’re just things I’ve done habitually to try to avoid being ‘misunderstood’ when out dancing alone, I love dancing and I really really don’t want someone screaming in my ear What is your name, or trying to sexy dance with me, and that is hard to achieve tbh.


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 13, 2021)

Winot said:


> No, I admit, we rarely do.




See, I think that’s a problem. This topic has been pressing for some time now, certainly since the #metoo thing. 

So why is it that at no point has it become a topic for discussion in your friendship group? You’ve been talking about it here, I expect you and your friends have had some discussion about these matters with the women in your life. But not with each other. 

Wouldn’t it have been fairly easy to say to one another “wow this #metoo thing, my wife says that... it’s made me think... I wonder if...” and so forth.

And yet, apparently, men generally just don’t talk about it with each other.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Mar 13, 2021)

SheilaNaGig said:


> I wasn’t _expecting_ her to be here.
> Okay, “wondering” wasn’t the right word.
> Or, “wondering where she was” was inaccurate.
> I wondered what she might say about this.


Okay. Got it.


----------



## Winot (Mar 13, 2021)

SheilaNaGig said:


> See, I think that’s a problem. This topic has been pressing for some time now, certainly since the #metoo thing.
> 
> So why is it that at no point has it become a topic for discussion in your friendship group? You’ve been talking about it here, I expect you and your friends have had some discussion about these matters with the women in your life. But not with each other.
> 
> ...



It’s a good point.


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 13, 2021)

Zapp Brannigan said:


> I hang out with other decent men, I wouldn't want to associate with those I consider dickheads.  However, even these men (me included) are capable of dickhead behaviour from time to time.  I am one to call it out, as are they, but what I do realise is that we all have been setting the bar too high for what is considered dickhead behaviour.  That stops now.




And do you and your men friends generally talk about gender politics, women’s rights, misogyny, sexism  etc? Has that ever been part of your discourse?


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 13, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> Not sure how we’re supposed to hang out with people we don’t like. Also, maybe it’s just the friendship groups I have, but I’ve never been in any all male groups




When dickhead men approach me, I am obliged to hang out with them for as long as it takes to get away without insulting him.


----------



## oli_1_uk (Mar 13, 2021)

Athos said:


> No, people can mingle, but the expectation is that men won't approach women without invitation. That'd be clear to anyone who went to that venue/night.  If they don't like it, they needn't attend. And if they break the rules they'll be asked to leave. Simple.


What about both men and women not approaching each other unless both agree to invitation? I think that would be fair


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Mar 13, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> Not sure how we’re supposed to hang out with people we don’t like. Also, maybe it’s just the friendship groups I have, but I’ve never been in any all male groups


I guess there are times when you are part of a wider group. It happens to me a few times  when I'm out for drinks after work  and  i'm with people  who  are  part of the wider circle who may make a comment that I find to be a bad take. Doesn't happen very often though as it's still all teachers  and  trend  very  lefty socially conscious.


----------



## 8ball (Mar 13, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> Not sure how we’re supposed to hang out with people we don’t like. Also, maybe it’s just the friendship groups I have, but I’ve never been in any all male groups



Fairly rare to be in an all male group for me too if there’s more than two or three people.  Been that way for a long time.


----------



## bimble (Mar 13, 2021)

oli_1_uk said:


> What about both men and women not approaching each other unless both agree to invitation? I think that would be fair


It’s a deal Oli.


----------



## Orang Utan (Mar 13, 2021)

SheilaNaGig said:


> When dickhead men approach me, I am obliged to hang out with them for as long as it takes to get away without insulting him.


Yes. I did say earlier that men should call out other men being dickheads when they notice creepy behaviour in public


----------



## Sue (Mar 13, 2021)

oli_1_uk said:


> What about both men and women not approaching each other unless both agree to invitation? I think that would be fair


Excellent, I'm all for that. Now, how exactly would this work? How do you know if someone agrees to the invitation? What happens if one person agrees and the other doesn't?


----------



## purenarcotic (Mar 13, 2021)

bimble said:


> I would absolutely love this. I have close women friends who would maybe not want to come to that night but it would be heaven for people like me who just really want to dance and have evolved all sorts of weird ideas of how to do that, alone, whilst signalling loud & clear somehow to people like ‘Oli’ there that it’s not “provocative” it’s just dancing.
> This means long sleeved tops whilst sweating, not doing certain sort of movements, tying a top round yr waist so nobody thinks you’re trying to show off yr bum, it all sounds insane when I write it out like that. I’m not saying these behaviours are in any way reasonable but they’re just things I’ve done habitually to try to avoid being ‘misunderstood’ when out dancing alone, I love dancing and I really really don’t want someone screaming in my ear What is your name, or trying to sexy dance with me, and that is hard to achieve tbh.



I have always, and my heterosexual friends too, had the best nights in gay clubs. I simply won’t go out to the straight clubs now, it’s like a bear pit and I’m sick of it and I’ll lose my shit and punch someone soon. Very, very rarely have an issue in gay clubs though. Great nights.


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 13, 2021)

bimble said:


> I would absolutely love this. I have close women friends who would maybe not want to come to that night but it would be heaven for people like me who just really want to dance and have evolved all sorts of weird ideas of how to do that, alone, whilst signalling loud & clear somehow to people like ‘Oli’ there that it’s not “provocative” it’s just dancing.
> This means long sleeved tops whilst sweating, not doing certain sort of movements, tying a top round yr waist so nobody thinks you’re trying to show off yr bum, it all sounds insane when I write it out like that. I’m not saying these behaviours are in any way reasonable but they’re just things I’ve done habitually to try to avoid being ‘misunderstood’ when out dancing alone, I love dancing and I really really don’t want someone screaming in my ear What is your name, or trying to sexy dance with me, and that is hard to achieve tbh.




And constantly turning to keep my back to them so they can’t say I was looking at them. Keeping my eyes closed, changing places on the dance floor, feigning really important conversations with someone else when they keep trying to catch my eye.


----------



## Athos (Mar 13, 2021)

oli_1_uk said:


> What about both men and women not approaching each other unless both agree to invitation? I think that would be fair


If you want to set up such an event, knock yourself out. But that's not what I'm proposing.


----------



## bimble (Mar 13, 2021)

purenarcotic said:


> I have always, and my heterosexual friends too, had the best nights in gay clubs. I simply won’t go out to the straight clubs now, it’s like a bear pit and I’m sick of it and I’ll lose my shit and punch someone soon. Very, very rarely have an issue in gay clubs though. Great nights.


I’ve got feelings about that as a solution, it’s a space that’s meant to be for gay people. Anyway my thing is Jamaican music so not a solution for me!


----------



## Treacle Toes (Mar 13, 2021)

oli_1_uk said:


> What about both men and women not approaching each other unless both agree to invitation? I think that would be fair



....and what will you do when you see a man not keeping to that agreement Oli?


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Mar 13, 2021)

The only all male group i'm currently in is the D&D group i'm in.  There is also a woman in that group  but she doesn't play in the campaign I play in. 
My D&D group is lovely though  and  does talk about some of the really bad behaviour  you can see  in the subculture (also wider world but it normally starts related to D&D or geek culture in general)


----------



## purenarcotic (Mar 13, 2021)

bimble said:


> I’ve got feelings about that as a solution, it’s a space that’s meant to be for gay people. Anyway my thing is Jamaican music so not a solution for me!



It is, but most of my mates are straight women so what am I gonna do lol. 😂 the ultimate solution is men behaving themselves, was more a point of how much nicer it is when you’re in a space where the men are definitely not interested.


----------



## Cid (Mar 13, 2021)

SheilaNaGig said:


> Again,
> 
> This is what I’m hearing men say.
> 
> ...



I'm not sure about this... At least it's not my experience of things. My social circle at the moment - and especially this year - is largely male (friends with people at my workshop, light industry mostly men). We do actually talk about this stuff. There are some aspects of Sarah Everard's case and the discussion on this and the other thread we could build on somewhat, of course there are. But it isn't an unknown, nor is it taboo. 

The problem is that the men we're talking about are manipulative; they gaslight, they lie, they shift their friendship groups to find people who will either support them, or who they can exercise power over. They build up networks of support through deceit; they use the people they abuse to support their wider presentation, they have families who show their support, they use their children as tools to present an image that hides their nature. 

I wish this was as simple as more talking, and continuing to improve personal behaviour, challenging bad behaviour etc. Just doesn't reflect my experience.


----------



## 8ball (Mar 13, 2021)

SheilaNaGig said:


> And constantly turning to keep my back to them so they can’t say I was looking at them. Keeping my eyes closed, changing places on the dance floor, feigning really important conversations with someone else when they keep trying to catch my eye.



One of the most depressing things I saw in terms of this kind of thing was a few years back when a bunch of us went to place where all the young women (it was generally a younger age group) were covering their drinks with their hand because of the risk of it getting spiked.  Just like it was just what you do on your night out.


----------



## 8ball (Mar 13, 2021)

bimble said:


> I’ve got feelings about that as a solution, it’s a space that’s meant to be for gay people.



Yeah, agree with you there.  There have always been some straight people in gay clubs but there’s a tipping point where it is no longer the space it was meant to be.


----------



## oli_1_uk (Mar 13, 2021)

Sue said:


> Excellent, I'm all for that. Now, how exactly would this work? How do you know if someone agrees to the invitation? What happens if one person agrees and the other doesn't?


This is the issue, how do you police it? I think ladies night would be more workable


----------



## Sue (Mar 13, 2021)

oli_1_uk said:


> This is the issue, how do you police it? I think ladies night would be more workable


'Ladies night'? I feel like we've just slipped back to the 80s...


----------



## Athos (Mar 13, 2021)

purenarcotic said:


> I have always, and my heterosexual friends too, had the best nights in gay clubs. I simply won’t go out to the straight clubs now, it’s like a bear pit and I’m sick of it and I’ll lose my shit and punch someone soon. Very, very rarely have an issue in gay clubs though. Great nights.



Now me my mates are a bit older (and not 'on the pull') we sometimes end up in gay clubs, occasionally as an all-male group. And you're right that it's a much nicer environment.  On the odd occasion that a bloke's tried it on with me, I've just said 'sorry mate, not interested' (which I feel better about than saying I'm not gay, as that'd invite the not unreasonable question of why I'm in their space), the reaction has always been completely cool - not like the way I've seen straight men act towards women who rebuff them. And, funnily enough (going back to Sheila's point) it is something we've discussed.


----------



## bimble (Mar 13, 2021)

oli_1_uk said:


> This is the issue, how do you police it? I think ladies night would be more workable


Ladies night!

Oli have you ever seen women dancing and thought that they were not doing it “provocatively”? What was the difference?


----------



## Athos (Mar 13, 2021)

oli_1_uk said:


> This is the issue, how do you police it? I think ladies night would be more workable



People who observe rule breaking all feel empowered and supported to challenge it, and, ultimately the organisers reserve the right to sling people out.


----------



## Philo (Mar 13, 2021)

Why can't we all just stand on our doorsteps and clap for Sarah Everard, like we did for Captain Tom Moore?


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Mar 13, 2021)

oli_1_uk said:


> This is the issue, how do you police it? I think ladies night would be more workable


This is the thing again. Blokes can't and won't change so it's unworkable so women have to do something different  rather than men trying to change.


----------



## Orang Utan (Mar 13, 2021)

bimble said:


> Ladies night!
> 
> Oli have you ever seen women dancing and thought that they were not doing it “provocatively”? What was the difference?


The only provocative dance I’ve ever seen is the haka


----------



## Orang Utan (Mar 13, 2021)

Philo said:


> Why can't we all just stand on our doorsteps and clap for Sarah Everard, like we did for Captain Tom Moore?


Knock yourself out.


----------



## purenarcotic (Mar 13, 2021)

Athos said:


> Now me my mates are a bit older (and not 'on the pull') we sometimes end up in gay clubs, occasionally as an all-male group. And you're right that it's a much nicer environment.  On the odd occasion that a bloke's tried it on with me, I've just said 'sorry mate, not interested' (which I feel better about than saying I'm not gay, as that'd invite the not unreasonable question of why I'm in their space), the reaction has always been completely cool - not like the way one seen straight men act towards women who rebuff them. And, funnily enough (going back to Sheila's point) it is something we've discussed.



I do hear things about for gay men in particular the scene can be pretty savage. And look at that serial rapist last year; something like over 200 men raped by him? At least that, possibly more. But when I go to a gay club I don’t have to worry about being approached, at least by the men. And if women do, I don’t fear saying no in the same way. It doesn’t happen in the same way. But then I’m also mindful that I am lesbian and so these are spaces ‘for me’ in a way a straight club isn’t.


----------



## chilango (Mar 13, 2021)

SheilaNaGig said:


> And do you and your friends talk together about women’s rights, gender politics, sexism and so forth?



Yes. We do. But I only hang out in mixed groups. Not deliberately, that's just how things have panned out.


----------



## izz (Mar 13, 2021)

BlanketAddict said:


> Why would the overwhelmingly vast majority of men have to have their personal freedom restricted because of the heinous actions of the extreme minority?
> 
> It's a daft idea to even suggest it.


Doubtless many others have said "But why should all women be expected to stay indoors just because only the extreme minority get kidnapped and murdered", but I couldn't resist it.


----------



## Sue (Mar 13, 2021)

purenarcotic said:


> I do hear things about for gay men in particular the scene can be pretty savage. And look at that serial rapist last year; something like over 200 men raped by him? At least that, possibly more. But when I go to a gay club I don’t have to worry about being approached, at least by the men. And if women do, I don’t fear saying no in the same way. It doesn’t happen in the same way.


Yep. And being able to dance or chat with people and for it be fun and to part on 'have a great night' terms without there being any shit. That.


----------



## Poot (Mar 13, 2021)

Philo said:


> Why can't we all just stand on our doorsteps and clap for Sarah Everard, like we did for Captain Tom Moore?


Because applauding an event that was reprehensible and avoidable and infuriating seems like the wrong response? I mean, crack on if you think it'll help, by all means.


----------



## campanula (Mar 13, 2021)

Um, have just whipped to the end of the thread (so probably missed something pertinent) but felt compelled to mention that while women may have been advised to stay safely in our homes (during at least one notorious episode within my lifetime)...we didn't. O no, we took to the streets in loud, boisterous marching, shouting, banging on our pots and pans and feeling...fucking invincible. I would be thrilled to see a revival of Reclaim the Night marches (obvs, when pandemic restrictions allow) because we are certainly not served by being passive, meek and obedient. I participated in many of these protests, with my kids, both male and female) and it honestly felt as though feminism had become mainstream (I guess friendofdorothy  has some memories of this). Power....who has it and for what use, was the basic issue for me...and I much regret the slow subsiding of feminism as it became slowly subsumed in a welter of capitalist machinations (the confusing 3rd wave)...not least the fucking pornographers playground of the internet. When we were conned into thinking that our bodies were actually just another commodity to be bartered (and those who resisted were nastily let down by our own sisters ...cos hey, we are taking charge of our own bodies to sell as we like. Sure you are. I definitely recall feeling diminished for not embracing the glorious opportunities to become female pornographers, kink shaming, the vile attitudes towards less photogenic feminists such as Andrea Dworkin. Yep, quite a few older women felt politically homeless, 
I think the sexual freedom for everyone has come back to bite us in the arse, watching our daughters and grand-daughters doing that endless dance of wanting to belong, to have agency...but only being accepted if we put our bodies up for titillation. Course, this might just be me (I have, for the longest time, turned my back on the treacherous world of sex for power)...but all the great new promised freedoms of a newsexual revolution has not really benefitted me and mine in any noticeable way...although I will concede that the commodification of the self has badly affected men...but since the initial power imbalances never came near to a fair resolution, this was only ever going one way. For brutal illustration...when middle class women get their kit off (for money) it is burlesque. When w.c women do it, we are just strippers. Yep, I know this is hugely simplistic...but it holds an undeniable truth (for me) that we have a bloody long way to go.


----------



## Athos (Mar 13, 2021)

purenarcotic said:


> I do hear things about for gay men in particular the scene can be pretty savage. And look at that serial rapist last year; something like over 200 men raped by him? At least that, possibly more. But when I go to a gay club I don’t have to worry about being approached, at least by the men. And if women do, I don’t fear saying no in the same way. It doesn’t happen in the same way. But then I’m also mindful that I am lesbian and so these are spaces ‘for me’ in a way a straight club isn’t.



Yeah, I'm not necessarily saying that gay men are angels; the lack of an aggressive reaction might be as much to do with the fact I'm a 6'3", well-built, confident bloke in my 40s.  Just that, whatever the reason, there is a marked difference from how I've seen a lot of men react to women in clubs who turn them down - from uncomfortable insitence right through to outright violence.


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Mar 13, 2021)

Clubs can be the utter worst. 
One night  I went to started really underground  and had  pleasant  everyone is here for the music vibe.  It probably still had  its share of  creeps  but  I didn't notice them if they were there.
As soon as the night got bigger and got a larger crowd the mood shifted  drastically. One night no one was on the (large) dance floor so I went out  to do a bit of dancing. 
after a minute or two  a few women  came  out and started to dance  too (it was near me  but not exactly with me) almost immediately a group of men came out  and  basically barged me out of the way  so  they could  be the ones  dancing with the women.  Now at the time  I didn't  really think much about how that  would have felt for the women  as it didn't look like it bothered them  but  looking back  I wonder how it felt to them.


----------



## campanula (Mar 13, 2021)

weird dbl post.


----------



## 8ball (Mar 13, 2021)

campanula said:


> Um, have just whipped to the end of the thread (so probably missed something pertinent) but felt compelled to mention that while women may have been advised to stay safely in our homes (during at least one notorious episode within my lifetime)...we didn't. O no, we took to the streets in loud, boisterous marching, shouting, banging on our pots and pans and feeling...fucking invincible. I would be thrilled to see a revival of Recalim the Night marches (obvs, when pandemic restrictions allow) because we are certainly not served by being passive, meek and obedient. I participated in many of these protests, with my kids, both male and female) and it honestly felt as though feminism had become mainstream (I guess friendofdorothy  has some memories of this). Power....who has it and for what use, wasthe basic issue for me...and I much regret the slow subsiding of feminism as it became slowly subsumed in a welter of capitalist machinations...not least the fucking pornographers playground of the internet. When we were conned into thinking that our bodies were actually just another commodity to be bartered (and those who resisted were nastily let down by our own sisters (cos hey, we are taking charge of our own bodies to sell as we like. Sure you are. I definitely recall feeling diminished for not embracing the glorious opportunities to become female pornographers, kink shaming, the vile attitudes towards less photogenic feminists such as Andrea Dworkin. Yep, quite a few older women felt politicallyt homeless,
> I think the sexual freedom for everyone has come back to bite us in the arse, watching our daughters and granbd-daughters doing that endless dance of wanting to belong, to have agency...but only being



I had wondered about the Reclaim The Night thing and where things stood with it.  The timing def seems right.


----------



## 8ball (Mar 13, 2021)

Shippou-Sensei said:


> Clubs can be the utter worst.
> One night  I went to started really underground  and had  pleasant  everyone is here for the music vibe.  It probably still had  its share of  creeps  but  I didn't notice them if they were there.
> As soon as the night got bigger and got a larger crowd the mood shifted  drastically. One night no one was on the (large) dance floor so I went out  to do a bit of dancing.
> after a minute or two  a few women  came  out and started to dance  too (it was near me  but not exactly with me) almost immediately a group of men came out  and  basically barged me out of the way  so  they could  be the ones  dancing with the women.  Now at the time  I didn't  really think much about how that  would have felt for the women  as it didn't look like it bothered them  but  looking back  I wonder how it felt to them.



Can relate to that.  Has happened on a few occasions and ended up different ways.


----------



## Zapp Brannigan (Mar 13, 2021)

SheilaNaGig said:


> And do you and your men friends generally talk about gender politics, women’s rights, misogyny, sexism  etc? Has that ever been part of your discourse?



Yes, but I accept that it's not been often enough.  Politics and current affairs play a role in discussion fairly regularly and when those current affairs are framed around women's rights etc, then of course they are discussed.  I hope that we'll be more proactive in setting the discourse rather than reactive - it shouldn't have taken Sarah Everard's murder to make us aware of this.


----------



## bellaozzydog (Mar 13, 2021)

oli_1_uk said:


> One question I'm thinking with that approach is that how would it be policed? Men on 1 side of the room and women on the other? Also would there have to be a 3rd area for transgender people or can they choose which side they go on?


Fuck off


----------



## campanula (Mar 13, 2021)

Ah, I know I am banging on a bit here...but most women are not at risk while walking the streets (or going to nightclubs). 2 women are killed every week by partners and ex-partners. The damnger is not outside the home but deep within the supposedly safe environs of home and family. Yep, there are toxic, hateful attitudes towards women but lets not pretend that it is just the faceless predator here...it seems that any man can feel empowered enough to raise a fist, dish out a slap, a punch, a beating ffs. This goes much deeper than stranger-danger and has tainted our basic relationships. We need allies here...but we do have to have an awareness of who /what is the enemy here.


----------



## Philo (Mar 13, 2021)

I am in favor of 'reclaiming the night', but I am not in favor of 'reclaiming' Clapham Common, which is supposed to be a 'safe space' for gay men.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Mar 13, 2021)




----------



## oli_1_uk (Mar 13, 2021)

Athos said:


> People who observe rule breaking all feel empowered and supported to challenge it, and, ultimately the organisers reserve the right to sling people out.


I think it would be more down to the organisers putting in enough security measures in place to protect people, random customers going up to challenge people who are possibly drunk could lead to more problems and possibly violence.


----------



## Athos (Mar 13, 2021)

oli_1_uk said:


> I think it would be more down to the organisers putting in enough security measures in place to protect people, random customers going up to challenge people who are possibly drunk could lead to more problems and possibly violence.



A bit of both. Plus the fact that this sort of night would be unlikely to attract the sort of people who'd cause issues.


----------



## Orang Utan (Mar 13, 2021)

oli_1_uk said:


> I think it would be more down to the organisers putting in enough security measures in place to protect people, random customers going up to challenge people who are possibly drunk could lead to more problems and possibly violence.


It’s perfectly possible to intervene without violence - have done it twice in clubs where fellas have got too - once telling the promoter what was going on and them getting security to eject them and once in that shitpit Fabric where a few of us surrounded a dickhead and danced him away from the woman he was harassing


----------



## oli_1_uk (Mar 13, 2021)

Shippou-Sensei said:


> This is the thing again. Blokes can't and won't change so it's unworkable so women have to do something different  rather than men trying to change.


I think it's just a more realistic option


----------



## Athos (Mar 13, 2021)

oli_1_uk said:


> I think it's just a more realistic option


I'm a bit cynical about how much you really want to find a solution.


----------



## oli_1_uk (Mar 13, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> It’s perfectly possible to intervene without violence - have done it twice in clubs where fellas have got too - once telling the promoter what was going on and them getting security to eject them and once in that shitpit Fabric where a few of us surrounded a dickhead and danced him away from the woman he was harassing


It's possible you're right, I think going to security would be the wise option, the concern with surrounding someone is you could get a very bad reaction where they attack you, they could be carrying a weapon, the could get their friends for backup, they could wait for you after you leave the club to attack you. May sound dramatic but it does happen.


----------



## killer b (Mar 13, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> It’s perfectly possible to intervene without violence - have done it twice in clubs where fellas have got too - once telling the promoter what was going on and them getting security to eject them and once in that shitpit Fabric where a few of us surrounded a dickhead and danced him away from the woman he was harassing


The last few times I've been out dancing with a crew, I've spent sometimes substantial portions of the night physically placing myself between women in our group and various frotting men. Which is ok as a in the moment solution, but doesn't feel like it's anything more than that, and it's a culture that needs to be built into the club night.

I know there was talk a while back about Safe Spaces policies in clubs, has anyone had much experience of going to a club where this is proactively promoted? And not just in a 'women speak to the bouncers' way, but in a 'men, these are your responsibilities' way?


----------



## cyril_smear (Mar 13, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> I have seen this hashtagged on Twitter as a response to the murder of Sarah Everard.



Collective punishment; illegal under international law.


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Mar 13, 2021)

I think part of it is just trying to change the culture. Have decency guides posted up everywhere. 
Don't make it  unspoken social rules  but  explicit codes of conduct  that  everyone has to agree to to enter.
It might be a start. It's not much but at least it  is  sayinging people need to change  not  just  that people won't change so need to be policed more.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Mar 13, 2021)

oli_1_uk said:


> One question I'm thinking with that approach is that how would it be policed? Men on 1 side of the room and women on the other? Also would there have to be a 3rd area for transgender people or can they choose which side they go on?


----------



## oli_1_uk (Mar 13, 2021)

Athos said:


> I'm a bit cynical about how much you really want to find a solution.


No worries it's good to be cynical, I'd rather see a society where people don't get attacked but that's just not the reality, it's the same with children being able to walk the streets with no worries but sadly you have paedophiles out there, it's not about not wanting to find a solution but not wanting to use a sledgehammer to crack a walnut


----------



## Badgers (Mar 13, 2021)

I think with Disgraced Prime Minister Johnson and his Cabinet of cunts we can be certain this is front and centre of their priorities.


----------



## Orang Utan (Mar 13, 2021)

cyril_smear said:


> Collective punishment; illegal under international law.


Used in schools all of the time mind


----------



## purenarcotic (Mar 13, 2021)

killer b said:


> The last few times I've been out dancing with a crew, I've spent sometimes substantial portions of the night physically placing myself between women in our group and various frotting men. Which is ok as a in the moment solution, but doesn't feel like it's anything more than that, and it's a culture that needs to be built into the club night.
> 
> I know there was talk a while back about Safe Spaces policies in clubs, has anyone had much experience of going to a club where this is proactively promoted? And not just in a 'women speak to the bouncers' way, but in a 'men, these are your responsibilities' way?



We were part of the good night out campaign; we trained a few bars and clubs. Some of it was about implementing measures which would try and ensure better responses from staff so women would feel more comfortable to report incidents, some was about trying to change attitudes of ‘it’s just a laugh / banter / not my business’ so that staff would proactively intervene when they saw something going on. Part of the reason why it’s so prolific is because they know they can get away with it. So creating an environment which makes that harder is definitely something.


----------



## cyril_smear (Mar 13, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> At the very least, we could light certain thoroughfares better. Locally, in Leeds, we have a ginnel that goes from an area with a lot of pubs to an area with a lot of student housing and there have been a large number of assaults.
> it’s got this bad:



Lived in Leeds all my life and never heard of it.


----------



## Clair De Lune (Mar 13, 2021)

Clair De Lune said:


> This is an important bit imo. The way some men (quite a lot actually ...in work, at the pub, with friends or in sports teams etc)  change completely when there are no women about. This is something common which men can call out before it escalates. Why are you talking differently now your wife/girlfriend isn't here? To challenge the attitude that loving your wife and having respect for her as a human being means you're pussy whipped.  Because guys get swept up in this and fall into line with the group even if they secretly hate the laddish 'locker room' chat. It's really creepy to overhear this shit as a woman. To hear 'nice guys' change their tone and act like a boys club makes us feel like the nice guy shit is an act to get us into bed, convince us to get married or have your children and leach off our kindness and naivety.  Ugh.


Just to add to this...this us and them attitude and the suppression of boys emotions, sensitivity and vulerability starts very young. I see it in my own son how if he's gaming and chatting to mates online his tone towards me changes a little...because it's embarrassing to admit I love and respect my mam in front of mates. This is where it starts and I think if we don't talk to our sons about it now that's when problems could arise later. I think it needs to be a family wide conversation.  I also think this is the time teaching respect is very important... we're not your slaves, don't take the piss and don't think it's ok to create a load of mess for a woman to clean up. Don't be so keen to fit in with your mates that you join in with sexist chat, exclude girls and other us. 
I'm a single mam but I'd hope that if my son's dad were around he wouldn't stand for the 'mam will clear that up, not my responsibility' attitude and would encourage talking to your mum and sister with respect.


----------



## cyril_smear (Mar 13, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> Used in schools all of the time mind


The kids need to get unionised.


----------



## Athos (Mar 13, 2021)

oli_1_uk said:


> No worries it's good to be cynical, I'd rather see a society where people don't get attacked but that's just not the reality, it's the same with children being able to walk the streets with no worries but sadly you have paedophiles out there, it's not about not wanting to find a solution but not wanting to use a sledgehammer to crack a walnut



A limited time and space which men are allowed to enter as long as they agree not to make unsolicited approaches to women is hardly a sledgehammer ffs!


----------



## Orang Utan (Mar 13, 2021)

killer b said:


> The last few times I've been out dancing with a crew, I've spent sometimes substantial portions of the night physically placing myself between women in our group and various frotting men. Which is ok as a in the moment solution, but doesn't feel like it's anything more than that, and it's a culture that needs to be built into the club night.
> 
> I know there was talk a while back about Safe Spaces policies in clubs, has anyone had much experience of going to a club where this is proactively promoted? And not just in a 'women speak to the bouncers' way, but in a 'men, these are your responsibilities' way?


I have but the onus did seem to be on anyone suffering harassment to report it to promoters or security.
The last time I went to Fabric there were some very firm notices up aimed towards the perpetrators saying that if you get caught harassing anyone ‘you will be dealt with very severely and then handed to the police’ which doesn’t take much reading between the lines


----------



## Orang Utan (Mar 13, 2021)

cyril_smear said:


> Lived in Leeds all my life and never heard of it.


Can’t exist then can it


----------



## oli_1_uk (Mar 13, 2021)

Shippou-Sensei said:


> I think part of it is just trying to change the culture. Have decency guides posted up everywhere.
> Don't make it  unspoken social rules  but  explicit codes of conduct  that  everyone has to agree to to enter.
> It might be a start. It's not much but at least it  is  sayinging people need to change  not  just  that people won't change so need to be policed more.


I agree, maybe something along the lines of a government campaign to highlight the issue more and clubs having more responsibility to keep people safe, those kind of things would be more beneficial than draconian curfew measures.


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Mar 13, 2021)

Spoiler: I go off on a tangent about how you might use technology to police behaviour



I could imagine ways to make it easier to police bad behaviour.
Often you already have to scan in to get into a venue.
I can imagine having an app that sets you see the pictures of people who have been near you in the venue and allowed you to report inappropriate behaviour.
That would then feedback to staff who can help deal with it.


----------



## purenarcotic (Mar 13, 2021)

The approach in itself isn’t so much the issue. People go out, they chat, they meet others in the smoking area, whatever. The issue is respecting the ‘no thank you’ - the persisting when ‘no’ has been said, the getting angry, calling them a bitch, the having to make up a fake boyfriend etc etc. I am immensely antisocial so I get narked being approached on my night out by anybody I don’t know, I don’t want to talk shit with a stranger. But when a man does it, I am instantly on edge and I can feel the anger rising as I get ready for the fight. No really does mean no. I really struggle to understand why that is such a hard concept.


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Mar 13, 2021)

purenarcotic said:


> The approach in itself isn’t so much the issue. People go out, they chat, they meet others in the smoking area, whatever. The issue is respecting the ‘no thank you’ - the persisting when ‘no’ has been said, the getting angry, calling them a bitch, the having to make up a fake boyfriend etc etc. I am immensely antisocial so I get narked being approached on my night out by anybody I don’t know, I don’t want to talk shit with a stranger. But when a man does it, I am instantly on edge and I can feel the anger rising as I get ready for the fight. No really does mean no. I really struggle to understand why that is such a hard concept.


Endless self delusions and fragile egos.
That and all the stuff that has already been said about the culture around being out.


----------



## purenarcotic (Mar 13, 2021)

Shippou-Sensei said:


> Endless self delusions and fragile egos.
> That and all the stuff that has already been said about the culture around being out.



Yes it was a bit rhetorical, I understand how the patriarchy works thanks.


----------



## Athos (Mar 13, 2021)

purenarcotic said:


> The approach in itself isn’t so much the issue. People go out, they chat, they meet others in the smoking area, whatever. The issue is respecting the ‘no thank you’ - the persisting when ‘no’ has been said, the getting angry, calling them a bitch, the having to make up a fake boyfriend etc etc. I am immensely antisocial so I get narked being approached on my night out by anybody I don’t know, I don’t want to talk shit with a stranger. But when a man does it, I am instantly on edge and I can feel the anger rising as I get ready for the fight. No really does mean no. I really struggle to understand why that is such a hard concept.


I've never got the persistence thing, anyway.  I mean, quite apart from being unpleasant, is it worth the time an effort?  How often do women who've clearly indicated they're not interested change their mind because they're badgered?.  Or perhaps I'm being naive, and that happens a lot, which is worrying in iteslf.


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Mar 13, 2021)

purenarcotic said:


> Yes it was a bit rhetorical, I understand how the patriarchy works thanks.


I'm Sorry. Didn't mean it that way.


----------



## marshall (Mar 13, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> Can’t exist then can it



My daughter's at university in Leeds, she informs it certainly exists; but it's a relatively new piece of graffiti. Apparently.


----------



## Orang Utan (Mar 13, 2021)

marshall said:


> My daughter's at university in Leeds, she informs it certainly exists; but it's a relatively new piece of graffiti. Apparently.


I live very near it and avoid it myself - have avoided it since I was a teenager.


----------



## killer b (Mar 13, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> I have but the onus did seem to be on anyone suffering harassment to report it to promoters or security.
> The last time I went to Fabric there were some very firm notices up aimed towards the perpetrators saying that if you get caught harassing anyone ‘you will be dealt with very severely and then handed to the police’ which doesn’t take much reading between the lines


I think there's probably some hesitancy to introduce and vigorously promote safe space type policies for fear of being thought of as killjoys - the name itself instantly brings to mind images of dour faced student activists etc - I guess one way we can make a difference is by trying to normalise these kinds of policies in the spaces we (in)frequent.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Mar 13, 2021)

Philo said:


> Why can't we all just stand on our doorsteps and clap for Sarah Everard, like we did for Captain Tom Moore?



Some people will be as that is the way they will choose to have a vigil for Sarah and all the other murdered and abused women.



Philo said:


> I am in favor of 'reclaiming the night', but I am not in favor of 'reclaiming' Clapham Common, which is supposed to be a 'safe space' for gay men.



It isn't being hijacked, nor does it belong to any one group. It's a public space.

You are clearly here to be controversial and provocative...do carry on with you list of silly statements.


----------



## Athos (Mar 13, 2021)

killer b said:


> I think there's probably some hesitancy to introduce and vigorously promote safe space type policies for fear of being thought of as killjoys - the name itself instantly brings to mind images of dour faced student activists etc - I guess one way we can make a difference is by trying to normalise these kinds of policies in the spaces we (in)frequent.



I think there's a big element of that. It just needs to become a normal party of not being a dick.


----------



## krtek a houby (Mar 13, 2021)

oli_1_uk said:


> One question I'm thinking with that approach is that how would it be policed? Men on 1 side of the room and women on the other? Also would there have to be a 3rd area for transgender people or can they choose which side they go on?



You've mentioned trans people a few times, now. Do you have a particular issue with them?


----------



## killer b (Mar 13, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> You've mentioned trans people a few times, now. Do you have a particular issue with them?


I think just not bothering is the thing tbh.


----------



## cyril_smear (Mar 13, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> Can’t exist then can it



All I can find online is one story.

I’m on multiple Facebook community groups for the Leeds area, and a few Leeds rhinos Facebook groups as well... never heard about this. If it was a thing the club would be all over it and making people aware of it.


----------



## purenarcotic (Mar 13, 2021)

Athos said:


> I've never got the persistence thing, anyway.  I mean, quite apart from being unpleasant, is it worth the time an effort?  How often do women who've clearly indicated they're not interested change their mind because they're badgered?.  Or perhaps I'm being naive, and that happens a lot, which is worrying in iteslf.



I don’t know the stats (does anybody?) but I suppose it must work sometimes. And look, I get it, we’ve all been turned down and it’s a bit bruising. Maybe this is about being able to take failure, to accept not everyone likes you and that’s okay. We put a lot of effort into things for girls to like themselves as they are, perhaps we need to do more with boys so they don’t feel such a need to own others. Because they like themselves enough. I dunno.


----------



## Orang Utan (Mar 13, 2021)

cyril_smear said:


> All I can find online is one story.
> 
> I’m on multiple Facebook community groups for the Leeds area, and a few Leeds rhinos Facebook groups as well... never heard about this. If it was a thing the club would be all over it and making people aware of it.


So you can’t find it on FB. Jesus. Have you read the Twitter thread I quoted?
Also try Googling “leeds students sexual assault alley headingley”


----------



## Athos (Mar 13, 2021)

purenarcotic said:


> I don’t know the stats (does anybody?) but I suppose it must work sometimes. And look, I get it, we’ve all been turned down and it’s a bit bruising. Maybe this is about being able to take failure, to accept not everyone likes you and that’s okay. We put a lot of effort into things for girls to like themselves as they are, perhaps we need to do more with boys so they don’t feel such a need to own others. Because they like themselves enough. I dunno.



Yeah, I think tackling boys' egos earlier is an important part of it.


----------



## cyril_smear (Mar 13, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> So you can’t find it on FB. Jesus. Have you read the Twitter thread I quoted?
> Also try Googling “leeds students sexual assault alley headingley”


----------



## oli_1_uk (Mar 13, 2021)

Athos said:


> A limited time and space which men are allowed to enter as long as they agree not to make unsolicited approaches to women is hardly a sledgehammer ffs!


A curfew is though..........ffs!
Unsolicited approaches is a broad term as well.....going up to a woman and asking her if she wants a drink is unsolicited, so is trying to make conversation with her, it's not just about touching her up or getting pervy with her.


----------



## Orang Utan (Mar 13, 2021)

cyril_smear said:


> Eungh


Are you saying that this hasn’t happened?


----------



## killer b (Mar 13, 2021)

Athos said:


> I think there's a big element of that. It just needs to become a normal party of not being a dick.


Changes of behaviour and culture don't 'just' happen though. They happen because good behaviour is rewarded, and poor behaviour disincentivised. That's really what it comes down to, and I think any discussion about how to change the culture that hopes to achieve anything really needs to focus on those things - how to reward good behaviour, and how to make sure poor behaviour isn't rewarded.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Mar 13, 2021)

Athos said:


> I've never got the persistence thing, anyway. I mean, quite apart from being unpleasant, is it worth the time an effort? How often do women who've clearly indicated they're not interested change their mind because they're badgered?. Or perhaps I'm being naive, and that happens a lot, which is worrying in iteslf.





purenarcotic said:


> I don’t know the stats (does anybody?) but I suppose it must work sometimes. And look, I get it, we’ve all been turned down and it’s a bit bruising.



while i'm approaching the courting habits of the heterosexual from the perspective of an outsider, i have encountered a mindset where it seems to be seen as wrong for a woman to say 'yes' at the first approach because that means she is being 'easy' / a 'slut' or whatever hence the outlook that no doesn't necessarily mean no.

ugh.


----------



## oli_1_uk (Mar 13, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> You've mentioned trans people a few times, now. Do you have a particular issue with them?


Should they not be involved in the conversation? Maybe you have a particular issue with not including them? Are you against trans people?


----------



## Athos (Mar 13, 2021)

oli_1_uk said:


> A curfew is though..........ffs!
> Unsolicited approaches is a broad term as well.....going up to a woman and asking her if she wants a drink is unsolicited, so is trying to make conversation with her, it's not just about touching her up or getting pervy with her.



I'm not advocating a curfew.  Nobody is seriously; it's a rhetorical device. 

Yes, I understand that there are different forms of unsolicited approach; I'm saying the ground rules of this event would be a 'no' to all forms of unsolicited approaches by men towards women.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Mar 13, 2021)

oli_1_uk said:


> Neither would a commercial plane without baggage being checked, in an ideal world we wouldn't have to worry about terrorists trying to blow up planes but it's the reality we face.
> 
> Women should not suffer these issues but a curfew would discriminate against men, flying in the face of equality.
> 
> ...


Fuck off again.


oli_1_uk said:


> Should they not be involved in the conversation? Maybe you have a particular issue with not including them? Are you against trans people?


Nice try.


----------



## 8ball (Mar 13, 2021)

oli_1_uk said:


> I think it's just a more realistic option



Is this a fucking trolling mission?


----------



## krtek a houby (Mar 13, 2021)

oli_1_uk said:


> Should they not be involved in the conversation? Maybe you have a particular issue with not including them? Are you against trans people?



You seem to be



oli_1_uk said:


> Curfew would not work and it just opens up another can of worms as men could just say they identified as women.





oli_1_uk said:


> For the trans part people will take advantage of that, that's a reason you won't see a curfew.


----------



## Athos (Mar 13, 2021)

killer b said:


> Changes of behaviour and culture don't 'just' happen though. They happen because good behaviour is rewarded, and poor behaviour disincentivised. That's really what it comes down to, and I think any discussion about how to change the culture that hopes to achieve anything really needs to focus on those things - how to reward good behaviour, and how to make sure poor behaviour isn't rewarded.



Yes, I agree. 'Just' was a bad choice of word, as it's anything but simple.


----------



## oli_1_uk (Mar 13, 2021)

Athos said:


> I'm not advocating a curfew.  Nobody is seriously; it's a rhetorical device.
> 
> Yes, I understand that there are different forms of unsolicited approach; I'm saying the ground rules of this event would be a 'no' to all forms of unsolicited approaches by men towards women.


All forms? So that includes men not making any conversation with a women in anyway which is unsolicited? So will women have to make the first move if they wanted to get to know/get with a guy going forward?


----------



## Athos (Mar 13, 2021)

oli_1_uk said:


> All forms? So that includes men not making any conversation with a women in anyway which is unsolicited? So will women have to make the first move if they wanted to get to know/get with a guy going forward?


Yes


----------



## killer b (Mar 13, 2021)

Got to wonder at the kind of person who decides the aftermath of a young woman's kidnap and murder is the time to go trolling the feminists tbh


----------



## 8ball (Mar 13, 2021)

Athos said:


> Yeah, I think tackling boys' egos earlier is an important part of it.



Not sure how old you are, but when I was a kid there was a definite reinforcement of those elements of male ego that I think leads to some of the behaviour we’ve been talking about.  Never backing down, imposing your will on others and the world around you, any conciliation being a sign of weakness - that wasn’t something they just failed to “deal with” - it’s something that was fostered and rewarded.


----------



## Orang Utan (Mar 13, 2021)

oli_1_uk said:


> All forms? So that includes men not making any conversation with a women in anyway which is unsolicited? So will women have to make the first move if they wanted to get to know/get with a guy going forward?


Or maybe get to know potential romantic partners in a different way ie online dating


----------



## oli_1_uk (Mar 13, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> You seem to be


I think you are for not including them, that's thoughtless of you and trying to bait me isn't the answer


----------



## Athos (Mar 13, 2021)

8ball said:


> Not sure how old you are, but when I was a kid there was a definite reinforcement of those elements of male ego that I think leads to some of the behaviour we’ve been talking about.  Never backing down, imposing your will on others and the world around you, any conciliation being a sign of weakness - that wasn’t something they just failed to “deal with” - it’s something that was fostered and rewarded.



Mid 40s.  Same for me.


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Mar 13, 2021)

oli_1_uk said:


> All forms? So that includes men not making any conversation with a women in anyway which is unsolicited? So will women have to make the first move if they wanted to get to know/get with a guy going forward?


Seems reasonable to me.
Do you think this is somehow beyond the pale?


----------



## oli_1_uk (Mar 13, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> Or maybe get to know potential romantic partners in a different way ie online dating


Should online dating replace face to face encounters?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Mar 13, 2021)

oli_1_uk said:


> All forms? So that includes men not making any conversation with a women in anyway which is unsolicited? So will women have to make the first move if they wanted to get to know/get with a guy going forward?



Who fucking cares? You don't. Piss poor trolling.


----------



## krtek a houby (Mar 13, 2021)

oli_1_uk said:


> I think you are for not including them, that's thoughtless of you and trying to bait me isn't the answer



You've baited yourself. Masterfully.


----------



## 8ball (Mar 13, 2021)

Shippou-Sensei said:


> Seems reasonable to me.
> Do you think this is somehow beyond the pale?



I know the response wasn’t aimed at me, but it does seem very silly at first glance.  Still, no harm in experimenting.

edit: on reflection, I expect such events have happened many times, but I don’t go to
S & M clubs


----------



## killer b (Mar 13, 2021)

Rutita1 said:


> Who fucking cares? You don't. Piss poor trolling.


looks like he's doing ok to me.


----------



## oli_1_uk (Mar 13, 2021)

Shippou-Sensei said:


> Seems reasonable to me.
> Do you think this is somehow beyond the pale?


I don't think it's beyond the pale but I think there is still a good amount of women who like men to make the 1st move


----------



## Orang Utan (Mar 13, 2021)

oli_1_uk said:


> Should online dating replace face to face encounters?


No, it’s a way to arrange them


----------



## Athos (Mar 13, 2021)

oli_1_uk said:


> I don't think it's beyond the pale but I think there is still a good amount of women who like men to make the 1st move


Then this event wouldn't be for them.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Mar 13, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> You've baited yourself. Masterfully.


----------



## cyril_smear (Mar 13, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> Are you saying that this hasn’t happened?





Orang Utan said:


> Are you saying that this hasn’t happened?



What hasn’t happened?

What I remember was that there was something going round on Facebook a few months ago about police looking for “a man” after a series of incidents around that area and the police went on to say that they had no such reports🤷‍♂️ Not that it didn’t happen, but that they had had no reports.

I can’t comment on the separate  “incident” that they thoroughly investigated but found “nothing to support that it had happened”


----------



## Orang Utan (Mar 13, 2021)

cyril_smear said:


> What hasn’t happened?
> 
> What I remember was that there was something going round on Facebook a few months ago about police looking for “a man” after a series of incidents around that area and the police went on to say that they had no such reports🤷‍♂️ Not that it didn’t happen, but that they had had no reports.
> 
> I can’t comment on the separate  “incident” that they thoroughly investigated but found “nothing to support that it had happened”


I’m not sure what the purpose of your posts here serve


----------



## cyril_smear (Mar 13, 2021)

Anybody who would be in favour of anything like this is an idiot.


----------



## oli_1_uk (Mar 13, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> No, it’s a way to arrange them


Online dating is in addition to face to face encounters, there are times you may meet someone without initially meeting them online, what happens then? You've not met them online, so would you have to ignore that encounter?


----------



## Dr. Furface (Mar 13, 2021)

AnnO'Neemus said:


> Not a curfew, as such, but iirc, they have women only train carriages in Japan, and in Mexico they have women only buses.


Mexico City metro trains also have women only carriages - iirc it's the first one on every train


----------



## Orang Utan (Mar 13, 2021)

oli_1_uk said:


> Online dating is in addition to face to face encounters, there are times you may meet someone without initially meeting them online, what happens then? You've not met them online, so would you have to ignore that encounter?


Yes, unless perhaps you were introduced by a mutual friend


----------



## Orang Utan (Mar 13, 2021)

cyril_smear said:


> Anybody who would be in favour of anything like this is an idiot.


Read the thread


----------



## chilango (Mar 13, 2021)

killer b said:


> Got to wonder at the kind of person who decides the aftermath of a young woman's kidnap and murder is the time to go trolling the feminists tbh


The kind of person unwittingly providing the evidence to back up the feminists' argument.


----------



## chilango (Mar 13, 2021)

Dr. Furface said:


> Mexico City metro trains also have women only carriages - iirc it's the first one on every train



...and have done for over a decade.


----------



## krtek a houby (Mar 13, 2021)

cyril_smear said:


> Anybody who would be in favour of anything like this is an idiot.



Showing solidarity or trying to comprehend what it's like to be a woman alone at night?


----------



## cyril_smear (Mar 13, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> Read the thread


I don’t need to read the thread. Any reasonable person knows it wasn’t an honest suggestion by the MP, and was said only to draw a comparison.

I’m surprised that you seemed somewhat warm to the idea though. Unless I’ve misunderstood.


----------



## Orang Utan (Mar 13, 2021)

cyril_smear said:


> I don’t need to read the thread. Any reasonable person knows it wasn’t an honest suggestion by the MP, and was said only to draw a comparison.
> 
> I’m surprised that you seemed somewhat warm to the idea though. Unless I’ve misunderstood.


You’ve misunderstood and you need to read the thread


----------



## BlanketAddict (Mar 13, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> Yes, unless perhaps you were introduced by a mutual friend



Sucks if you're not on the internet or not comfortable using it I guess? What then?


----------



## Orang Utan (Mar 13, 2021)

BlanketAddict said:


> Sucks if you're not on the internet or not comfortable using it I guess? What then?


I dunno. We’re getting far from the point here. Let’s get back on track.


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Mar 13, 2021)

BlanketAddict said:


> Sucks if you're not on the internet or not comfortable using it I guess? What then?


I don't think this was saying this would be the only option available  just an extra option for  venues.


----------



## ElizabethofYork (Mar 13, 2021)

Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't see a problem with men approaching women in a friendly way for a dance or a drink or a chat.  But if the woman isn't interested, back off without calling her filthy names.


----------



## killer b (Mar 13, 2021)

ElizabethofYork said:


> Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't see a problem with men approaching women in a friendly way for a dance or a drink or a chat.  But if the woman isn't interested, back off without calling her filthy names.


I think I'd get pretty pissed off if I was constantly being approached for banal banter with an edge of 'please fuck me' by strangers all evening whenever I went out tbh.


----------



## chilango (Mar 13, 2021)

Just as in stuff like the Harry and Meghan discussion it's illustrative to see some - who would no doubt take great offense at being called racist or sexist - keener to undermine the substantive point on the grounds of irrelevant nitpicking than to shut up and listen.


----------



## ElizabethofYork (Mar 13, 2021)

killer b said:


> I think I'd get pretty pissed off if I was constantly being approached for banal banter with an edge of 'please fuck me' by strangers all evening whenever I went out tbh.



Yes, it's annoying.  But thankfully most of them will back off when it's clear that I'm not interested.


----------



## killer b (Mar 13, 2021)

ElizabethofYork said:


> Yes, it's annoying.  But thankfully most of them will back off when it's clear that I'm not interested.


would you like to be able to choose to go and dance somewhere where you wouldn't be annoyed?


----------



## ElizabethofYork (Mar 13, 2021)

killer b said:


> would you like to be able to choose to go and dance somewhere where you wouldn't be annoyed?


Yes, definitely.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Mar 13, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> Read the thread


----------



## killer b (Mar 13, 2021)

ElizabethofYork said:


> Yes, definitely.


that's really all anyone is talking about here tbh


----------



## neonwilderness (Mar 13, 2021)

killer b said:


> I think I'd get pretty pissed off if I was constantly being approached for banal banter with an edge of 'please fuck me' by strangers all evening whenever I went out tbh.


The last place I worked had quite a lot of younger staff. Whenever we were on a work night out and ended up in a club it was always surprising the number of random guys who would appear from nowhere and start trying to integrate themselves into our group


----------



## 8ball (Mar 13, 2021)

Rutita1 said:


> View attachment 258566



I’ve been thinking it sounded like a perfume since I first saw the thread title but didn’t want to mention it.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Mar 13, 2021)

8ball said:


> I’ve been thinking it sounded like a perfume since I first saw the thread title but didn’t want to mention it.


#metoo


----------



## Edie (Mar 13, 2021)

killer b said:


> The last few times I've been out dancing with a crew, I've spent sometimes substantial portions of the night physically placing myself between women in our group and various frotting men. Which is ok as a in the moment solution, but doesn't feel like it's anything more than that, and it's a culture that needs to be built into the club night.
> 
> I know there was talk a while back about Safe Spaces policies in clubs, has anyone had much experience of going to a club where this is proactively promoted? And not just in a 'women speak to the bouncers' way, but in a 'men, these are your responsibilities' way?


Isn’t it enjoyable to have a bit of a flirt though? Going to a “safe space” club sounds fucking dull. I also wouldn’t want a guy ‘stepping in’. I can’t be the only woman who can handle herself surely.


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Mar 13, 2021)

Edie said:


> Isn’t it enjoyable to have a bit of a flirt though? Going to a “safe space” club sounds fucking dull. I also wouldn’t want a guy ‘stepping in’. I can’t be the only woman who can handle herself surely.


Don't you think it would be nice to have the option?


----------



## killer b (Mar 13, 2021)

Edie said:


> Isn’t it enjoyable to have a bit of a flirt though? Going to a “safe space” club sounds fucking dull. I also wouldn’t want a guy ‘stepping in’. I can’t be the only woman who can handle herself surely.


I understand some people wouldn't like it, I suppose you can go to a different club. Lots of women I know find men aggressively pushing themselves onto them on the dancefloor and constantly being interrupted by drunk sleazy dudes boring.


----------



## 8ball (Mar 13, 2021)

killer b said:


> I understand some people wouldn't like it, I suppose you can go to a different club. Lots of women I know find men aggressively pushing themselves onto them on the dancefloor and constantly being interrupted by drunk sleazy dudes boring.



I don’t think it’s an either/or between these two things.


----------



## Edie (Mar 13, 2021)

killer b said:


> I understand some people wouldn't like it, I suppose you can go to a different club. Lots of women I know find men aggressively pushing themselves onto them on the dancefloor and constantly being interrupted by drunk sleazy dudes boring.


Each to their own. The idea of a safe space club sounds so weirdly policed it’s a total offput for me. Where’s the edge.


----------



## Ax^ (Mar 13, 2021)

Edie said:


> Each to their own. The idea of a safe space club sounds so weirdly policed it’s a total offput for me. Where’s the edge.



Go back to the 50s where you have men on one side and women on the other..

you have the cross the floor to talk to the other side and walk back across when ya get told to get to fuck


----------



## Edie (Mar 13, 2021)

ElizabethofYork said:


> Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't see a problem with men approaching women in a friendly way for a dance or a drink or a chat.  But if the woman isn't interested, back off without calling her filthy names.


That is the crucial difference imo. I quite like a flirt, I quite like being moved to one side by my hips, seeing a guy looking at me, little cheeky wink, shared smile, look down, passing compliment, dancing close. Honestly? I’ve never had a problem with it in that context and I’ve done a fair amount of clubbing.

The crucial difference is the good man, when getting a knock back or signal for no, doesn’t get his ego hurt and get aggressive. The jerks do. But this board brush talk of ‘men must not flirt of the dance floor’ stuff leaves me a bit  What’s the fucking point then


----------



## killer b (Mar 13, 2021)

8ball said:


> I don’t think it’s an either/or between these two things.


Women on this thread have said they won't go to straight clubs anymore because they always get sleazed on by men when they do. I was posting really in response to that conversation. I think it really _is_ an either or tbh


----------



## 8ball (Mar 13, 2021)

Edie said:


> Each to their own. The idea of a safe space club sounds so weirdly policed it’s a total offput for me. Where’s the edge.



I think it’s easy to talk past each other here, gay clubs, for example, are “safe spaces” on
several counts, and involve people going with the express and open intention of getting laid a lot of the time.

Must say response is very matter of fact given how easily you could read that post as saying you enjoy being harassed by drunk sleazy bores.


----------



## Edie (Mar 13, 2021)

8ball said:


> I think it’s easy to talk past each other here, gay clubs, for example, are “safe spaces” on
> several counts, and involve people going with the express and open intention of getting laid a lot of the time.
> 
> Must say response is very matter of fact given how easily you could read that post as saying you enjoy being harassed by drunk sleazy bores.


I’m clearly talking about ‘safe space’ from flirting as per killer b , not gay clubs


----------



## 8ball (Mar 13, 2021)

Edie said:


> I’m clearly talking about ‘safe space’ from flirting as per killer b , not gay clubs



Yeah, I know.  You were also talking about safety vs. an ‘edge’.  I don’t think being free from unwanted hassle means the only option is these weird behavioural controls being talked about on this thread.  Some of it sounds borderline pervy.


----------



## Orang Utan (Mar 13, 2021)

Edie said:


> I’m clearly talking about ‘safe space’ from flirting as per killer b , not gay clubs


Most clubs I go to are to dance not flirt. And of course you can have a flirt if you want in a club that has a policy to keep people safe.


----------



## 8ball (Mar 13, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> Most clubs I go to are to dance not flirt. And of course you can have a flirt if you want in a club that has a policy to keep people safe.



I think after going round the same circle once or twice more we might land on the idea that (short of the vanquishing of capitalism and the coming together of all humanity in a great new form of previously unimagined harmony) that a mixture of codes of conduct re: security and a change of culture in venues might get us somewhat closer to where we’d like to be.

I’ve been to clubs where men making persistent unwanted advances have been shown the door.  It’s to do with what is viewed as acceptable and the kind of reputation clubs want to have.  I’d be gutted if I’d set up a place where I wanted people to have a good time and found loads of the women were keeping a hand on top of their drinks glasses at all times (and getting friends to hold them similarly when going to the loo) because there was a serious risk of being drugged by a sexual predator.


----------



## Edie (Mar 13, 2021)

8ball said:


> Yeah, I know.  You were also talking about safety vs. an ‘edge’.  I don’t think being free from unwanted hassle means the only option is these weird behavioural controls being talked about on this thread.  Some of it sounds borderline pervy.


Weird behavioural controls is the kinda flavour of the whole thread tbh.

Orang Utan how do you and killer b imagine this would work in reality? Would it be enough to advertise it as a ‘safe space’ but what would that mean? If more enforcement would be necessary, how would that be implemented? Christ this is a super bad idea isn’t it?


----------



## Orang Utan (Mar 13, 2021)

Edie said:


> Weird behavioural controls is the kinda flavour of the whole thread tbh.
> 
> Orang Utan how do you and killer b imagine this would work in reality? Would it be enough to advertise it as a ‘safe space’ but what would that mean? If more enforcement would be necessary, how would that be implemented? Christ this is a super bad idea isn’t it?


it does work in reality
just a more proactive role from security and a dialogue between them and the promoters. it's a piece of piss. it can even be a self-policed event.


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 13, 2021)

Athos said:


> I've never got the persistence thing, anyway.  I mean, quite apart from being unpleasant, is it worth the time an effort?  How often do women who've clearly indicated they're not interested change their mind because they're badgered?.  Or perhaps I'm being naive, and that happens a lot, which is worrying in iteslf.





Date rape.



He won’t  let it go.... you end up saying yes because you worry that his insistence and persistence will escalate.


----------



## killer b (Mar 13, 2021)

I think it's maybe a mistake to talk about safe spaces 'cause as mentioned it's got connotations of purse-lipped puritan joy-killers in empty-dancefloored student unions, but that's what most of the kind of existing initiatives I was wondering about are called so that's how it ended up being what we're talking about.

The reason these initiatives exist is because many women feel unsafe in clubs and bars, vis many posts on this thread and other similar threads, conversations had with friends ad infinitum, and the evidence of my own eyes. I'd like to see a change in the culture that makes women feel unsafe in clubs and bars - a change that isn't just reactive. I'm not sure exactly what the best way to do this is, but expected standards of behaviour are hardly an alien concept to most people, even in nightclubs.


----------



## Edie (Mar 13, 2021)

killer b said:


> I think it's maybe a mistake to talk about safe spaces 'cause as mentioned it's got connotations of purse-lipped puritan joy-killers in empty-dancefloored student unions, but that's what most of the kind of existing initiatives I was wondering about are called so that's how it ended up being what we're talking about.
> 
> The reason these initiatives exist is because many women feel unsafe in clubs and bars, vis many posts on this thread and other similar threads, conversations had with friends ad infinitum, and the evidence of my own eyes. I'd like to see a change in the culture that makes women feel unsafe in clubs and bars - a change that isn't just reactive. I'm not sure exactly what the best way to do this is, but expected standards of behaviour are hardly an alien concept to most people, even in nightclubs.


It actually reminds me more of safe spaces at Universities where dissenting voices from the liberal left are banned. It smells of policing in the same way. I am massively distrustful (and a little scornful) of it.


----------



## killer b (Mar 13, 2021)

Edie said:


> It actually reminds me more of safe spaces at Universities where dissenting voices from the liberal left are banned. It smells of policing in the same way. I am massively distrustful (and a little scornful) of it.


Its a loaded term anyway!


----------



## Orang Utan (Mar 13, 2021)

Edie said:


> It actually reminds me more of safe spaces at Universities where dissenting voices from the liberal left are banned. It smells of policing in the same way. I am massively distrustful (and a little scornful) of it.


I don't understand why - what's wrong with trying to make a night out enjoyable for everyone? It's just about mutual respect and making it easier to deal with unacceptable behaviour


----------



## Edie (Mar 13, 2021)

killer b said:


> Its a loaded term anyway!


It is. I guess I’d just want to encourage people to think about the unintended results of something like this. I’m a bit surprised our clubbing experiences have been so different tbh.

I mean sure if you go to ‘Majestic’ where girls are out in groups, no coats, tiny dresses, bottle in a cooler in the middle of the table, and guys wear shirts and all the under 25s are in big groups, there will be some booze-intensified (and probably poorly judged at times) flirting going on. My eldest loves this scene currently, the one where you and your mates get a group photo on the way in and your all wearing white shirts and have the same hair style 

But the more serious dj/club/dance clubs Ive quite honestly never been over-hassled in. Has it got worse since I stopped clubbing a decade ago do you think?


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 13, 2021)

I don’t really feel unsafe in clubs, not the way I sometimes feel unsafe in the street. Which is not to say I’ve never been in danger in clubs (had to be rescued a time or two by burly blokes when I was coraled into a dark corner, the back stairs).

I feel harassed and predated in clubs.  And I’m bored of it.

Like Edie, I like the flirting and the mating rituals, checking each other out, all that. What I don’t like is when the men insinuate themselves into my company, intrude on my space, push my boundaries, don’t respond to my subtle “no thanks, not for me ta” signals and bulldozer onwards. Then I have to increase my signals to overt gestures, words of rejection etc. 

I get that everyone reads things differently. But if a bloke starts off with the subtle signals, that suggests to me he can communicate in and pick up on the subtle signals. But now I’m signalling No he can’t pick up what I’m saying? Nah, that’s bullshit. He’s ignoring what I’m saying and pushing his agenda.


----------



## Clair De Lune (Mar 13, 2021)

Edie said:


> That is the crucial difference imo. I quite like a flirt, I quite like being moved to one side by my hips, seeing a guy looking at me, little cheeky wink, shared smile, look down, passing compliment, dancing close. Honestly? I’ve never had a problem with it in that context and I’ve done a fair amount of clubbing.
> 
> The crucial difference is the good man, when getting a knock back or signal for no, doesn’t get his ego hurt and get aggressive. The jerks do. But this board brush talk of ‘men must not flirt of the dance floor’ stuff leaves me a bit  What’s the fucking point then


I've danced with guys and really enjoyed myself. What I don't like is when I'm dancing with my friends and a guy I've had no interaction with starts grinding up against my arse and putting his hands on me. When I was younger I'd cringe and just try to move away, nowadays I'd turn and say 'can you get your fucking hands off me please?' but neither make for a good night TBF.


----------



## killer b (Mar 13, 2021)

Edie said:


> But the more serious dj/club/dance clubs Ive quite honestly never been over-hassled in. Has it got worse since I stopped clubbing a decade ago do you think?


yeah I think so. It never used to be (much) of a problem in my raving days - I don't go out clubbing much anymore either, but the last few times I have been there's been a noticeable uptick of sleazy dudes on the dancefloor. Maybe I've been unlucky.


----------



## trashpony (Mar 13, 2021)

I'd like a club night where there were no blokes. I don't think the idea of a safe mixed space works really (unless all the men are gay). 

In answer to your question about why men do it Athos - women will sometimes say yes because they're too scared to say no. Some men can get really aggressive when you say no, even in public. 

Others just are looking to fuel their knowledge that all women are bitches so that they can take righteous pleasure in shouting at you that they never fancied you anyway because you're a fat slaaaaaaaag and a lezzer .


----------



## purenarcotic (Mar 13, 2021)

Edie said:


> It is. I guess I’d just want to encourage people to think about the unintended results of something like this. I’m a bit surprised our clubbing experiences have been so different tbh.
> 
> I mean sure if you go to ‘Majestic’ where girls are out in groups, no coats, tiny dresses, bottle in a cooler in the middle of the table, and guys wear shirts and all the under 25s are in big groups, there will be some booze-intensified (and probably poorly judged at times) flirting going on. My eldest loves this scene currently, the one where you and your mates get a group photo on the way in and your all wearing white shirts and have the same hair style
> 
> But the more serious dj/club/dance clubs Ive quite honestly never been over-hassled in. Has it got worse since I stopped clubbing a decade ago do you think?



Being called a fucking bitch for saying I’m not interested is not ‘poorly judged flirting’ - it’s behaviour of a shit. That is the stuff I want stopped. I don’t care about fucking flirting. I want to go on a night out with my mates and have a nice time and if someone approaches me, I want my no instantly respected and adhered to. I really don’t think that’s much to ask. 😕


----------



## Orang Utan (Mar 13, 2021)

London clubs (at least when I was living there five years ago) would often have 'safe space'/anti-harrassment policies. There was even a campaign called A Good Night Out which accredited clubs for having progressive policies.


----------



## 8ball (Mar 13, 2021)

Edie said:


> ..but  the more serious dj/club/dance clubs Ive quite honestly never been over-hassled in. Has it got worse since I stopped clubbing a decade ago do you think?



I don’t think it’s the time lapse so much as that you’re talking about very different clubs.


----------



## cyril_smear (Mar 13, 2021)

Edie said:


> It is. I guess I’d just want to encourage people to think about the unintended results of something like this. I’m a bit surprised our clubbing experiences have been so different tbh.
> 
> I mean sure if you go to ‘Majestic’ where girls are out in groups, no coats, tiny dresses, bottle in a cooler in the middle of the table, and guys wear shirts and all the under 25s are in big groups, there will be some booze-intensified (and probably poorly judged at times) flirting going on. My eldest loves this scene currently, the one where you and your mates get a group photo on the way in and your all wearing white shirts and have the same hair style
> 
> But the more serious dj/club/dance clubs Ive quite honestly never been over-hassled in. Has it got worse since I stopped clubbing a decade ago do you think?


Majestic? You’re only 10 years out of touch...


----------



## Orang Utan (Mar 13, 2021)

This night was still going strong before lockdown:


----------



## killer b (Mar 13, 2021)

cyril_smear said:


> Majestic? You’re only 10 years out of touch...


she literally said that in the post you're replying to.


----------



## Edie (Mar 13, 2021)

cyril_smear said:


> Majestic? You’re only 10 years out of touch...


I’ve literally just said I’ve not been clubbing for ten years


----------



## Sue (Mar 13, 2021)

oli_1_uk said:


> It's possible you're right, I think going to security would be the wise option, the concern with surrounding someone is you could get a very bad reaction where they attack you, they could be carrying a weapon, the could get their friends for backup, they could wait for you after you leave the club to attack you. May sound dramatic but it does happen.


A


oli_1_uk said:


> I think it would be more down to the organisers putting in enough security measures in place to protect people, random customers going up to challenge people who are possibly drunk could lead to more problems and possibly violence.



And yet women have to negotiate this shit all the time.


----------



## cyril_smear (Mar 13, 2021)

killer b said:


> she literally said that in the post you're replying to.


That’s embarrassing for me 🤦‍♂️


----------



## 8ball (Mar 13, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> This night was still going strong before lockdown:
> View attachment 258580


Might also be good if there was something more codified, like a general standard venues in general could agree to and had to show they were sticking (kind of a ‘kite mark’ type of thing).

Or a condition of licensing.  I think you could read this much into the law as it stands.


----------



## cyril_smear (Mar 13, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> This night was still going strong before lockdown:
> View attachment 258580



Sounds like a right laugh.


----------



## Clair De Lune (Mar 13, 2021)

We have lifeguards at swimming pools and security in doors and inside gigs. It would be nice if they were taught to look out for handsy guys ruining women's nights too tbh. Clubs should be a safe place, for fun and dancing and drinking and chats in the smoking area and yes flirting too. But if it were my club I'd have a policy of making it known that lechy, inappropriate behaviour by anyone wouldn't be tolerated because it ruins the atmosphere and fun. I think that would involve chucking out guys who were steaming too cos we've all seen the guys who are so drunk they stand there swaying like a zombie in search for brains.


----------



## purenarcotic (Mar 13, 2021)

cyril_smear said:


> Sounds like a right laugh.



What about that statement bothers you? Do you think it’s okay for people to be made to feel uncomfortable by others on their night out?


----------



## 8ball (Mar 13, 2021)

cyril_smear said:


> Sounds like a right laugh.



Literally all that says is that they don’t tolerate discrimination or harassment.


----------



## cyril_smear (Mar 13, 2021)

purenarcotic said:


> What about that statement bothers you? Do you think it’s okay for people to be made to feel uncomfortable by others on their night out?



All of it, frankly. 

When did people become so pathetic? Can I report somebody to the bouncer for swearing?


----------



## Orang Utan (Mar 13, 2021)

8ball said:


> Might also be good if there was something more codified, like a general standard venues in general could agree to and had to show they were sticking (kind of a ‘kite mark’ type of thing).


that's what A Good Night Out is for:




__





						Good Night Out Campaign
					






					www.goodnightoutcampaign.org
				



It leads to established popular clubs such as Village Underground to operate policies such as this:








						About
					






					www.villageunderground.co.uk
				





> *What do I do if I am the victim of sexual assault, harassment or discrimination in the venue?*
> VU is a club for people to enjoy music without fear of harassment or discrimination. We welcome diversity in our audience and work to create a safe space for everyone present; in return we ask that you respect these values and each other. If someone is making you feel uncomfortable in any way, please let one of the members of staff know and we will try and resolve the issue as soon as possible. We also encourage our crowd to look out for one another and to report unacceptable behaviour if it occurs.
> 
> We classify the below behaviours as unacceptable and any reports of these will result in you being ejected from Village Underground:
> ...


----------



## cyril_smear (Mar 13, 2021)

8ball said:


> Literally all that says is that they don’t tolerate discrimination or harassment.


Same as any club then really🤷‍♂️


----------



## Orang Utan (Mar 13, 2021)

cyril_smear said:


> Sounds like a right laugh.


I haven't been but they had a good rep for putting on great techno/electro parties. An all women collective too.


----------



## 8ball (Mar 13, 2021)

cyril_smear said:


> Same as any club then really🤷‍♂️



What exactly was your problem again?


----------



## stethoscope (Mar 13, 2021)

I must admit, the only nights I've been to in recent years have been old skool ones so we've all been of a certain vintage.

I loved the early-mid 90s rave scene, where everyone was rushing so hard that this barely seemed to factor, yet mid-late 90s student clubbing in more high street bars/clubs which we'll probably remember being dubbed 'meat markets', just ugh.

Gay clubs in the 00s were in some ways a 'safer space', although I remember the vibe of those shifting a bit - firstly the hen parties arrived, which could be annoying more than anything but that then attracted a certain crowd of straight men into the clubs too on the pull of the straight women groups going. Weirdly, I once got accosted barely coming out of the ladies in a gay club on Canal Street, who felt me up and tried to snog me and then wandered off! I always presumed he was straight, praps he was hoping for something between my legs!

I did do a women's tent at a club classics night some years ago, and that did have a certain liberating feeling to it.

Although not sure if any of this is an answer to the behaviour of men and how that needs to change, though.


----------



## Clair De Lune (Mar 13, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> that's what A Good Night Out is for:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This is encouraging


----------



## Orang Utan (Mar 13, 2021)

cyril_smear said:


> Same as any club then really🤷‍♂️


Not at all


----------



## cyril_smear (Mar 13, 2021)

8ball said:


> What exactly was your problem again?



Everything!


----------



## Orang Utan (Mar 13, 2021)

stethoscope said:


> Although not sure if any of this is any answer to the behaviour of men and how that needs to change, though.


Quite, but some obtuse loudmouths have got the bit between their teeth on this thread as is depressingly usual


----------



## Clair De Lune (Mar 13, 2021)

This thread has been handy for drawing out the cretins aye.


----------



## purenarcotic (Mar 13, 2021)

cyril_smear said:


> All of it, frankly.
> 
> When did people become so pathetic? Can I report somebody to the bouncer for swearing?



So it’s pathetic for me to not want to be groped on a night out? Or if it happens, it’s pathetic for me to expect the club to do something about it? Because what generally happens when we do tell the clubs is nothing. We get told to lighten up, to leave it, he’s drunk so what’s the issue. I couldn’t give a shit about swearing, nor do most people. I just don’t want to be touched up without my consent. Why is this a big ask? Do you touch women without their permission or something? Is that an inherent part of a night out for you?


----------



## Orang Utan (Mar 13, 2021)

it's a real shame that the focus of discussion on this thread has narrowed so much to men complaining about clubs trying ensure they are safe for everyone


----------



## 8ball (Mar 13, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> it's a real shame that the focus of discussion on this thread has narrowed so much to men complaining about clubs trying ensure they are safe for everyone



Maybe worth leaving that subject considering almost everyone seems to agree on what isn’t acceptable behaviour and that certain good things are are being / have been done need to be done more.


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 13, 2021)

purenarcotic said:


> So it’s pathetic for me to not want to be groped on a night out? Or if it happens, it’s pathetic for me to expect the club to do something about it? Because what generally happens when we do tell the clubs is nothing. We get told to lighten up, to leave it, he’s drunk so what’s the issue. I couldn’t give a shit about swearing, nor do most people. I just don’t want to be touched up without my consent. Why is this a big ask? Do you touch women without their permission or something? Is that an inherent part of a night out for you?




Or have some bloke leering at me, or leaning in on a conversation I’m having with someone else, or staring at me insistently, or repeating that I’m hot or sexy or beautiful without actually developing any conversation. The same stuff I don’t want in any other arena ffs!


----------



## Clair De Lune (Mar 13, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> it's a real shame that the focus of discussion on this thread has narrowed so much to men complaining about clubs trying ensure they are safe for everyone


Yep instead of how likely it is that one of your mates has harassed, sexually assaulted or raped a woman. Cos me and all my mates have been raped and those guys had mates too believe me.


----------



## stethoscope (Mar 13, 2021)

cyril_smear said:


> Sounds like a right laugh.



Is seriously just setting out that everyone has the right to have a safe and good night, without people being cunts on various grounds, a bad thing?


----------



## Edie (Mar 13, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> it's a real shame that the focus of discussion on this thread has narrowed so much to men complaining about clubs trying ensure they are safe for everyone


Agreed. Let’s open it out. If men’s attitudes to women have noticeably worsened over the last decade wrt public place harassment, what is it that we are not doing or are doing that’s causing that?


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 13, 2021)

Clair De Lune said:


> Yep instead of how likely it is that one of your mates has harassed, sexually assaulted or raped a woman. Cos me and all my mates have been raped and those guys had mates too believe me.




I’m really sorry this happened to you Clair De Lune 


This thing about mates is important.

Blokes say “no one i know does this”. So who do they think it is that’s leering and flashing and groping and raping?


----------



## Orang Utan (Mar 13, 2021)

Edie said:


> Agreed. Let’s open it out. If men’s attitudes to women have noticeably worsened over the last decade wrt public place harassment, what is it that we are not doing or are doing that’s causing that?


I don't think they've necessarily worsened or got better, it's just that it's always been the same


----------



## ddraig (Mar 13, 2021)

stethoscope said:


> Is seriously just setting out that everyone has the right to have a safe and good night, without people being cunts on various grounds, a bad thing?


Yes for people like Cyril as they have to think about things and have consideration for others, when they go to a club it's to enjoy themselves and everyone and everything is fair game, cos it's a club and booze and stuff, and that's why people go to clubs of course


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 13, 2021)

Edie said:


> Agreed. Let’s open it out. If men’s attitudes to women have noticeably worsened over the last decade wrt public place harassment, what is it that we are not doing or are doing that’s causing that?




Hang on...

Are you saying “what is it that women are/are not doing to cause the bad behaviour?”

Or are you saying “we” meaning society?


----------



## Clair De Lune (Mar 13, 2021)

SheilaNaGig said:


> I’m really sorry this happened to you Clair De Lune
> 
> 
> This thing about mates is important.
> ...


Exactly...so few men on this thread have admitted to having mates with dodgy attitudes. And yet these men are everywhere...they gotta be someone's mate.


----------



## Athos (Mar 13, 2021)

SheilaNaGig said:


> Date rape.
> 
> 
> 
> He won’t  let it go.... you end up saying yes because you worry that his insistence and persistence will escalate.





trashpony said:


> I'd like a club night where there were no blokes. I don't think the idea of a safe mixed space works really (unless all the men are gay).
> 
> In answer to your question about why men do it Athos - women will sometimes say yes because they're too scared to say no. Some men can get really aggressive when you say no, even in public.
> 
> Others just are looking to fuel their knowledge that all women are bitches so that they can take righteous pleasure in shouting at you that they never fancied you anyway because you're a fat slaaaaaaaag and a lezzer .



Grim.


----------



## stethoscope (Mar 13, 2021)

Clair De Lune said:


> Exactly...so few men on this thread have admitted to having mates with dodgy attitudes. And yet these men are everywhere...they gotta be someone's mate.



They're seriously turning a blind eye, or not being entirely honest about their own conduct I suspect.


----------



## trashpony (Mar 13, 2021)

Clair De Lune said:


> Exactly...so few men on this thread have admitted to having mates with dodgy attitudes. And yet these men are everywhere...they gotta be someone's mate.


Yeah, it's all bit Not My Nigel


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 13, 2021)

Clair De Lune said:


> Exactly...so few men on this thread have admitted to having mates with dodgy attitudes. And yet these men are everywhere...they gotta be someone's mate.



I suspect that a lot of men just don’t see it, don’t notice. It’s not remarkable - not been remarked on - so it’s not on their radar, or hasn’t been til recently.

Hopefully, conversations like this one will help men be more aware of it, alert to it.


----------



## 8ball (Mar 13, 2021)

Clair De Lune said:


> Yep instead of how likely it is that one of your mates has harassed, sexually assaulted or raped a woman. Cos me and all my mates have been raped and those guys had mates too believe me.



A friend of mine was assaulted at a party quite a few years ago by someone we all liked and who seemed a totally decent guy.  Out of the whole group of friends, all but one never had anything to do with him again.  There will be cases the group doesn’t know about though unless the group is a massive statistical outlier, I suppose. 

Regarding the one who stayed in contact with him, I have no idea whether he knew of any red flags beforehand, he had known him since childhood.


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 13, 2021)

Athos said:


> Grim.




Yep.
But so normal that some men find it worth doing.


----------



## Edie (Mar 13, 2021)

SheilaNaGig said:


> Hang on...
> 
> Are you saying “what is it that women are/are not doing to cause the bad behaviour?”
> 
> Or are you saying “we” meaning society?


I was thinking about the rise in porn if that makes it clearer?


----------



## Edie (Mar 13, 2021)

Clair De Lune said:


> Exactly...so few men on this thread have admitted to having mates with dodgy attitudes. And yet these men are everywhere...they gotta be someone's mate.


It’s a fucking bunch of men. A lot of guys act differently when they’re not with the wives, girlfriends, sisters etc. 1 in 10 men have bought sex and go to any city or even town and they’ll have a strip club. The number of guys I know who have been to a strip club on a lads night out/trip/stag is massive, it’s seen as a right of passage. Even now in 2021.


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 13, 2021)

Edie said:


> I was thinking about the rise in porn if that makes it clearer?




We’ve always had porn, but I agree that the constancy and ubiquity of it is much greater now.


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 13, 2021)

Although adverts were more porny in the past than they are these days.


----------



## Orang Utan (Mar 13, 2021)

Clair De Lune said:


> Exactly...so few men on this thread have admitted to having mates with dodgy attitudes. And yet these men are everywhere...they gotta be someone's mate.


I used to go out with a big crew of regulars and there were two standout creeps - neither of which I have anything to do with these days, but I'm ashamed to admit, their behaviour didn't make much of an impression on me besides wincing at their actions at the time - not good enough for sure. There was also a well-known DJ who has been accused of assault and harrassment recently. He'd played various friends' parties and I'd been told of inappropriate comments towards female friends at the time. People (including myself) just laughed it off at the time -  he was just seen as a ladies' man who said the odd outrageous thing. I'm glad it's come out and he may get his comeuppance, but fuck sake, we should have dealt with it collectively at the time.


----------



## 8ball (Mar 13, 2021)

SheilaNaGig said:


> We’ve always had porn, but I agree that the constancy and ubiquity of it is much greater now.



And the _intensity_ of it (maybe the wrong word), and the casual misogyny.  Whole other big subject to tackle, that.


----------



## 8ball (Mar 13, 2021)

Edie said:


> It’s a fucking bunch of men. A lot of guys act differently when they’re not with the wives, girlfriends, sisters etc. 1 in 10 men have bought sex and go to any city or even town and they’ll have a strip club. The number of guys I know who have been to a strip club on a lads night out/trip/stag is massive, it’s seen as a right of passage. Even now in 2021.



It gets a good bit worse than strip clubs too.


----------



## starfish2000 (Mar 13, 2021)

Blokes have to step up. It’s self awareness.

A few years ago after a great night out with a mate. I fell halfway down a flight of stairs drunk at Ealing Broadway Station and miraculously landed on my feet. It was like something out of a Hollywood stuntman’s routine. I was so amazed and pleased with myself I was all chatty and hyped up and happy. A woman looked at me and I smiled. She then screamed “get away from me”.  It never dawned on me that I look a bit intimidating. But thinking about it, yeah I do. She probably didn’t see the fall. Just a lairy drunken man leering at her.

That was a bit of a watershed for me. Now I will give females a wide berth and plenty of space in public places. I avoid sitting near any lone females on public transport. I won’t speak to anyone unless they start up a conversation. If I see other blokes being a knob, I call it out. But I didn’t do those things twenty years ago. It’s a case of re-education.


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Mar 13, 2021)

SheilaNaGig said:


> Although adverts were more porny in the past than they are these days.


I was watching a music video by a synthwave style artist and he cuts together old ads for his videos.  The sex sells advertising is heavy.


Spoiler: the video for those interested


----------



## chilango (Mar 13, 2021)

SheilaNaGig said:


> Blokes say “no one i know does this”. So who do they think it is that’s leering and flashing and groping and raping?



Yeah.

I can't imagine any of my male friends doing any of this shit. But, statistically, over the years I must've had friends who did.


----------



## 8ball (Mar 13, 2021)

chilango said:


> Yeah.
> 
> I can't imagine any of my male friends doing any of this shit. But, statistically, over the years I must've had friends who did.



I find this a difficult one because I know without a shadow of a doubt that had we never found about what happened in the case of my friend who was assaulted at that party (and assuming no other revelations), the man involved would now be coming over as the wokest guy in the room in any conversation on topics of the kind we are discussing here.


----------



## Edie (Mar 13, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> I used to go out with a big crew of regulars and there were two standout creeps - neither of which I have anything to do with these days, but I'm ashamed to admit, their behaviour didn't make much of an impression on me besides wincing at their actions at the time - not good enough for sure. There was also a well-known DJ who has been accused of assault and harrassment recently. He'd played various friends' parties and I'd been told of inappropriate comments towards female friends at the time. People (including myself) just laughed it off at the time -  he was just seen as a ladies' man who said the odd outrageous thing. I'm glad it's come out and he may get his comeuppance, but fuck sake, we should have dealt with it collectively at the time.


Attitudes have definitely changed since the 90s. But trashpony put a really depressing account from one of her mates about her daughter and her experiences with lads her age. And it did make me think that maybe young girls do have it significantly worse than when we were young, and maybe it’s linked to ‘sexual liberation’ and porn.


----------



## Edie (Mar 13, 2021)

8ball said:


> It gets a good bit worse than strip clubs too.


Exactly. The street sex scene is thriving. The escort scene (covid not included) is good business, in calls and outcalls. Same as it ever was and ever will be.


----------



## trashpony (Mar 13, 2021)

chilango said:


> Yeah.
> 
> I can't imagine any of my male friends doing any of this shit. But, statistically, over the years I must've had friends who did.


Nearly every woman I know has been groped/harassed/assaulted multiple times. So blokes you know have definitely done it.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Mar 13, 2021)

Edie said:


> it did make me think that maybe young girls do have it significantly worse than when we were young, and maybe it’s linked to ‘sexual liberation’ and porn.



The issue for me is a lot of it is culturally acceptable coercion and denigration masquerading as 'sexual liberation'.


----------



## 8ball (Mar 13, 2021)

Edie said:


> Exactly. The street sex scene is thriving. The escort scene (covid not included) is good business, in calls and outcalls. Same as it ever was and ever will be.



And the trafficking and the use of drug addiction as a form of control etc.etc.

I hope you’re wrong on the “ever will be” bit.


----------



## Edie (Mar 13, 2021)

starfish2000 said:


> That was a bit of a watershed for me. Now I will give females a wide berth and plenty of space in public places. I avoid sitting near any lone females on public transport. I won’t speak to anyone unless they start up a conversation. If I see other blokes being a knob, I call it out. But I didn’t do those things twenty years ago. It’s a case of re-education.


This is just depressing tho. Do we actually want this?


----------



## Orang Utan (Mar 13, 2021)

Edie said:


> Attitudes have definitely changed since the 90s. But trashpony put a really depressing account from one of her mates about her daughter and her experiences with lads her age. And it did make me think that maybe young girls do have it significantly worse than when we were young, and maybe it’s linked to ‘sexual liberation’ and porn.


I think there’s a link. Laura Bates said in the talk I mentioned upthread that she’d spoken to boys who’d seen videos on free porn upload sites on phones from as young as 5. And some of them growing up thinking it’s normal to choke during sex, one she spoke about didn’t actually want to do it but just thought it was the done thing, leading him to break down during his first sexual encounter. It’s not just choking though, it’s normalising unwanted touching which in porn can lead to resigned acquiescence from the woman and then unrealistic sex afterwards. It’s grim alright


----------



## Treacle Toes (Mar 13, 2021)

Edie I think it's okay for a man to be aware that some women feel intimidated or at risk. That is because they are aware that many men are harrassing and hurting women.

I would be grateful to starfish for not approaching me on a train late at night and I consider myself someone who can, for the most part, handle myself. I shouldn't have to 'handle' myself. I just want to get home, without incident or harm.


----------



## ManchesterBeth (Mar 13, 2021)

thought experiment — might as well call it section 28 curfew you unreconstructed homophobes.


----------



## Orang Utan (Mar 13, 2021)

dialectician said:


> thought experiment — might as well call it section 28 curfew you unreconstructed homophobes.


Oh god what now


----------



## Edie (Mar 13, 2021)

Rutita1 said:


> Edie I think it's okay for a man to be aware that some women feel intimidated or at risk. That is because they are aware that many men are harrassing and hurting women.
> 
> I would be grateful to starfish for not approaching me on a train late at night and I consider myself someone who can, for the most part, handle myself. I shouldn't have to 'handle' myself.


Yes, absolutely. Awareness is important. And not walking near a woman at night if possible, or sitting right beside her if there’s an alternative. But I wouldn’t want a world where men can’t interact normally, like there is a bit with men and kids now (if the man doesn’t have kids himself he might hesitate to pick a kid up whose fallen down). It’s a balance.


----------



## 8ball (Mar 13, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> I think there’s a link. Laura Bates said in the talk I mentioned upthread that she’d spoken to boys who’d seen videos on free porn upload sites on phones from as young as 5. And some of them growing up thinking it’s normal to choke during sex, one she spoke about didn’t actually want to do it but just thought it was the done thing, leading him to break down during his first sexual encounter. It’s not just choking though, it’s normalising unwanted touching which in porn can lead to resigned acquiescence from the woman and then unrealistic sex afterwards. It’s grim alright



This is going to really fuck up a generation (at least) of kids’ sexual development. 

Was on a bus once and some kids (I say kids - maybe 14 or 15 year old boys - in their school uniforms on the way home) were comparing pictures of various models they had on their phones - it was early on in the days of smartphones) - and I heard one of them remark that there was a certain curve along the top of the breast that really marked out the women he liked.  
I knew he was talking about that curve that you only see in the case of silicone implants.


----------



## neonwilderness (Mar 13, 2021)

I've just seen this posted elsewhere. A lot of it has been mentioned on this thread already, but it sums it up reasonably well.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Mar 13, 2021)

Edie said:


> Yes, absolutely. Awareness is important. And not walking near a woman at night if possible, or sitting right beside her if there’s an alternative. But I wouldn’t want a world where men can’t interact normally, like there is a bit with men and kids now (if the man doesn’t have kids himself he might hesitate to pick a kid up whose fallen down). It’s a balance.


I think then the discussion is about what is 'acting normally' because it seems that too many men think being a letch/groping/sexist banter is normal and that's why it continues to happen.


----------



## chilango (Mar 13, 2021)

trashpony said:


> Nearly every woman I know has been groped/harassed/assaulted multiple times. So blokes you know have definitely done it.



Yeah...yet I wouldn't have a clue which ones.


----------



## ManchesterBeth (Mar 13, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> Oh god what now



Your thought experiment is logically inconsistent. By banning men in your hypothetical scenario you also ban cottaging. From there it's just a greater step to empowering police officers to be homophobic. GiT GuD


----------



## ManchesterBeth (Mar 13, 2021)

I'm on your side mate but this thought experiment is the biggest load of liberal please absolve me I'm a straight man wank ive read on this forum.


----------



## polly (Mar 13, 2021)

chilango said:


> Yeah...yet I wouldn't have a clue which ones.



I had a tight knit group of friends at university, mostly men - there was just me and one other woman in the group. I never had any reason to think any of them would sexually assault anyone. Years after we had finished, the other woman told me that one of them had raped her in our final year. She had never told anyone until me. She wouldn't report it. Anyway, based on that and other personal experiences, I think it's feasible that men don't always know their mates are rapists. It does seem statistically likely that many of them are, though. The trouble is, if they're bothering to hide their rapeyness, they know it's unacceptable. So how do we influence them?


----------



## killer b (Mar 13, 2021)

I'm not sure this is a welcome interjection dialectician. wind it in love.


----------



## Flavour (Mar 13, 2021)

I don't really have much useful to add to this thread, just that I think there needs to be a fuckton more education on these issues from a very young age and throughout childhood and adolescence -- cultural norms can be shifted but it takes a long time. The minority of guys who aren't lecherous and potentially dangerous all hanging out with each other in their echo chambers (of which, in a way, urban75 is one) doesn't help solve the problem of tackling the overwhelming majority of men who do give voice to misogynistic stuff both when women are around and (especially so) when they're not. On the one had we shouldn't go looking for opportunities to call it out, but we have to take those opportunities when they do arise.


----------



## Winot (Mar 13, 2021)

Clair De Lune said:


> Exactly...so few men on this thread have admitted to having mates with dodgy attitudes. And yet these men are everywhere...they gotta be someone's mate.



Not that many men have responded to the question. I did and I gave an honest response. ‘Admitted’ makes it sound as if we’re deliberately lying. I may be naive but I’m not a liar.


----------



## Orang Utan (Mar 13, 2021)

dialectician said:


> Your thought experiment is logically inconsistent. By banning men in your hypothetical scenario you also ban cottaging. From there it's just a greater step to empowering police officers to be homophobic. GiT GuD


Getting a bit tired of your froth


----------



## ManchesterBeth (Mar 13, 2021)

killer b said:


> I'm not sure this is a welcome interjection dialectician. wind it in love.




Fair enough. If someone can tell me how this _hypothetical_ curfew will be enforced without police though...


----------



## ManchesterBeth (Mar 13, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> Getting a bit tired of your froth



Least it ain't me being a do gooder.


----------



## Orang Utan (Mar 13, 2021)

dialectician said:


> Fair enough. If someone can tell me how this _hypothetical_ curfew will be enforced without police though...


Play catch up on this thread first


----------



## killer b (Mar 13, 2021)

dialectician said:


> Fair enough. If someone can tell me how this _hypothetical_ curfew will be enforced without police though...


it's not a real thing so there's no need to plan how it would be enforced.


----------



## Orang Utan (Mar 13, 2021)

dialectician said:


> Least it ain't me being a do gooder.


What’s the opposite?


----------



## ManchesterBeth (Mar 13, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> Play catch up on this thread first



I read 5 pages and there were no proposals taken into account in the thought experiment. I'm not going to read all 18.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Mar 13, 2021)

dialectician said:


> Your thought experiment is logically inconsistent. By banning men in your hypothetical scenario you also ban cottaging. From there it's just a greater step to empowering police officers to be homophobic. GiT GuD


Seriously, _this_ is your take on it? After everything said on this and other threads over the last few days?


----------



## ManchesterBeth (Mar 13, 2021)

killer b said:


> it's not a real thing so there's no need to plan how it would be enforced.



Hence why I said hypothetical. I'm looking at the thought experiment on its own terms. It doesn't hold up.


----------



## killer b (Mar 13, 2021)

dialectician said:


> Hence why I said hypothetical. I'm looking at the thought experiment on its own terms. It doesn't hold up.


it's not supposed to. it's simply asking 'what would it be like for women if men couldn't go out at night', nothing more or less.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Mar 13, 2021)

It's not a thought experiment. It's a blood curdling, banshee scream of 'What the fuck will it take!' I am glad it has made so many men uncomfortable.


----------



## Orang Utan (Mar 13, 2021)

dialectician said:


> I read 5 pages and there were no proposals taken into account in the thought experiment. I'm not going to read all 18.


Your words on here have no credence then


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 13, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> that's what A Good Night Out is for:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'd support that


----------



## ManchesterBeth (Mar 13, 2021)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> Seriously, _this_ is your take on it? After everything said on this and other threads over the last few days?



What. Do you want me to break down into tears and snuggle up to the council and old bill? I'm being honest. We can talk about rape without needing to have some absurd green party nonsense animating the conversation. If we do need it, then men have a long long long way to go, more than people on this thread would like to believe.


----------



## bimble (Mar 13, 2021)

Please, don’t let ignored member take over the thread it was a good one (just catching up)


----------



## 8ball (Mar 13, 2021)

Flavour said:


> The minority of guys who aren't lecherous and potentially dangerous...



Wtf


----------



## Orang Utan (Mar 13, 2021)

bimble said:


> Please, don’t let ignored member take over the thread it was a good one (just catching up)


Good idea


----------



## ManchesterBeth (Mar 13, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> Your words on here have no credence then



Oh oh oh officer! You paying me to read all 18 pages then?


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Mar 13, 2021)

dialectician said:


> If we do need it, then men have a long long long way to go, more than people on this thread would like to believe.


Isn't that the point we are wrestling with?


----------



## killer b (Mar 13, 2021)

I think you should probably piss off tbh.


----------



## Orang Utan (Mar 13, 2021)

dialectician said:


> What. Do you want me to break down into tears and snuggle up to the council and old bill? I'm being honest. We can talk about rape without needing to have some absurd green party nonsense animating the conversation. If we do need it, then men have a long long long way to go, more than people on this thread would like to believe.


Said he who won’t read the thread nor listen to anyone’s else’s opinions


----------



## ManchesterBeth (Mar 13, 2021)

Shippou-Sensei said:


> Isn't that the point we are wrestling with?



No.


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Mar 13, 2021)

dialectician said:


> No.


Well yes  your not.


----------



## ManchesterBeth (Mar 13, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> Said he who won’t read the thread nor listen to anyone’s else’s opinions



No, you're wrong. I read part of the thread. Excuse the pedantry.


----------



## ManchesterBeth (Mar 13, 2021)

Shippou-Sensei said:


> Well yes  your not.



Ehhhh.


----------



## killer b (Mar 13, 2021)

dialectician said:


> No, you're wrong. I read part of the thread. Excuse the pedantry.


incredibly, we've covering different stuff now, on page 19, than we were at the start of the thread. You're arguing with yesterday.


----------



## ManchesterBeth (Mar 13, 2021)

killer b said:


> it's not supposed to. it's simply asking 'what would it be like for women if men couldn't go out at night', nothing more or less.



But men will go out at night to enforce the curfew. Unless you want to have a mass recruitment of female police officers to increase gender parity.


----------



## ManchesterBeth (Mar 13, 2021)

A curfew is violently policed. We had one in turkey from 1980-83. after the military junta. Curfews aren't thought experiments for party hacks, they have serious consequences and are not put to democratic votes.


----------



## killer b (Mar 13, 2021)

dialectician said:


> But men will go out at night to enforce the curfew. Unless you want to have a mass recruitment of female police officers to increase gender parity.


you've completely misunderstood the point of the thread, and we aren't even talking about that anymore. seriously can you piss off.


----------



## Edie (Mar 13, 2021)

dialectician said:


> Your thought experiment is logically inconsistent. By banning men in your hypothetical scenario you also ban cottaging. From there it's just a greater step to empowering police officers to be homophobic. GiT GuD


Your response is ‘but what about the men who can’t have sex’. Jfc


----------



## kabbes (Mar 13, 2021)

dialectician said:


> A curfew is violently policed. We had one in turkey from 1980-83. after the military junta. Curfews aren't thought experiments for party hacks, they have serious consequences and are not put to democratic votes.


Inform us then of your personal experiences and memories of 1980-83.  That would be most helpful.


----------



## trashpony (Mar 13, 2021)

polly said:


> I had a tight knit group of friends at university, mostly men - there was just me and one other woman in the group. I never had any reason to think any of them would sexually assault anyone. Years after we had finished, the other woman told me that one of them had raped her in our final year. She had never told anyone until me. She wouldn't report it. Anyway, based on that and other personal experiences, I think it's feasible that men don't always know their mates are rapists. It does seem statistically likely that many of them are, though. The trouble is, if they're bothering to hide their rapeyness, they know it's unacceptable. So how do we influence them?


The most rapey blokes I've come across are those who are central to their social group. So the guy who leads the Young Communists, the guy who is in charge of Extinction Rebellion at your university - those are the ones who use their power and position to abuse and assault women. And they know that - because of their power and position - the women are unlikely to be believed. After all, if most of the women want to fuck him because he's king of the student union, why would he want to rape a woman? 

I view any man who seeks peer approval and aspires to lead with deep suspicion.


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 13, 2021)

dialectician said:


> Least it ain't me being a do gooder.


I'm completely baffled as why you'd want to dismiss  Orang Utan  contribution as being a do-gooder? It's an open discussion in which he has made some suggestions. You can disagree with them, agree with them but if you haven't got any contribution to how women's safety can be improved rather than just label suggestions as do-gooders you can  fuck off.


----------



## ManchesterBeth (Mar 13, 2021)

Edie said:


> Your response is ‘but what about the men who can’t have sex’. Jfc



Yes, that was the tories response in the 80s. Are you aware of that? Stop promoting homosexuality because it perverts boys.


----------



## Orang Utan (Mar 13, 2021)

Do-betterer


----------



## ddraig (Mar 13, 2021)

dialectician said:


> Yes, that was the tories response in the 80s. Are you aware of that? Stop promoting homosexuality because it perverts boys.


Please please PLEASE read the thread and please stop the unhelpful whattaboutery


----------



## ManchesterBeth (Mar 13, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> I'm completely baffled as why you'd want to dismiss  Orang Utan  contribution as being a do-gooder? It's an open discussion in which he has made some suggestions. You can disagree with them, agree with them but if you haven't got any contribution to how women's safety can be improved rather than just label suggestions as do-gooders you can  fuck off.



Not repeating the talking points of plod supporters for one. Seriously how tone deaf has this place become.


----------



## Edie (Mar 13, 2021)

dialectician said:


> Yes, that was the tories response in the 80s. Are you aware of that? Stop promoting homosexuality because it perverts boys.


Stop attention seeking.


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Mar 13, 2021)

Wow. this thread is a hot take machine.


----------



## bimble (Mar 13, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> Do-betterer


I like this a lot.


----------



## killer b (Mar 13, 2021)

dialectician said:


> Seriously how tone deaf has this place become.


is this satire?


----------



## ManchesterBeth (Mar 13, 2021)

Edie said:


> Stop attention seeking.



Says the private school mother!


----------



## ManchesterBeth (Mar 13, 2021)

killer b said:


> is this satire?



Could be, yes.


----------



## Edie (Mar 13, 2021)

dialectician said:


> Says the private school mother!


Im actually cringing for you, and won’t interact with you further.


----------



## kabbes (Mar 13, 2021)

I had thought that the idea of a curfew for men was just an interesting diving-off point to open up discussion.  But having seen the contributions each in their own particular way of oli_1_uk, cyril_smear and now dialectician, I’m beginning to think it has genuine appeal.


----------



## bimble (Mar 13, 2021)

When the most recent post is by someone you’re ignoring, the whole thread disappears from the front page. That’s annoying.

dialectician relax, there’s not going to be a curfew.


----------



## Orang Utan (Mar 13, 2021)

Edie said:


> Im actually cringing for you, and* won’t interact with you further.*


let's all do this


----------



## ManchesterBeth (Mar 13, 2021)

kabbes said:


> I had thought that the idea of a curfew for men was just an interesting diving-off point to open up discussion.  But having seen the contributions each in their own particular way of oli_1_uk, cyril_smear and now dialectician, I’m beginning to think it has genuine appeal.



Says a cis man. You're the biggest hypocrite in the world, wouldn't be surprised if a woman comes out in the future alleging all kinds of things.


----------



## BlanketAddict (Mar 13, 2021)

dialectician said:


> I read 5 pages and there were no proposals taken into account in the thought experiment. I'm not going to read all 18.



There was also a fair amount of discourse concerning a proposal that perhaps men should  only approach/make the first move online, not actually in person. 

File it in the daft idea along with curfewing men. Neither would do anything to tackle the very real issue of violence/ abusive behaviour by men towards women. 

Aren't the vast majority of criminal acts against women perpetrated by men they already know, be it physical/sexual assault or worse? Essentially their husband/partner?


----------



## ManchesterBeth (Mar 13, 2021)

kabbes said:


> I had thought that the idea of a curfew for men was just an interesting diving-off point to open up discussion.  But having seen the contributions each in their own particular way of oli_1_uk, cyril_smear and now dialectician, I’m beginning to think it has genuine appeal.


----------



## kabbes (Mar 13, 2021)

dialectician said:


> Says a cis man. You're the biggest hypocrite in the world, wouldn't be surprised if a woman comes out in the future alleging all kinds of things.


I’m the biggest hypocrite in the world, he says.  THE BIGGEST.  You know that person you thought was a hypocrite?  Yeah, even bigger than that.

Oh hang on, he doesn’t have a fucking clue who I am or anything about me.  Other than that though, he must be right.

How are those memories of 1980-83 when “we” had a curfew coming on for you?


----------



## ManchesterBeth (Mar 13, 2021)

bimble said:


> When the most recent post is by someone you’re ignoring, the whole thread disappears from the front page. That’s annoying.
> 
> dialectician relax, there’s not going to be a curfew.



I never thought there was and even if there was I wouldn't care because I never go out at night in this miserable country anyway.

But thanks for thinking I'm a cretin.


----------



## ManchesterBeth (Mar 13, 2021)

kabbes said:


> I’m the biggest hypocrite in the world, he says.  THE BIGGEST.  You know that person you thought was a hypocrite?  Yeah, even bigger than that.
> 
> Oh hang on, he doesn’t have a fucking clue who I am or anything about me.  Other than that though, he must be right.
> 
> How are those memories of 1980-83 when “we” had a curfew coming on for you?



Pretty good actually, loads of police male on male rapes, bastinato and assassinations. Just another day at the races.


----------



## killer b (Mar 13, 2021)

dialectician said:


> wouldn't be surprised if a woman comes out in the future alleging all kinds of things.


this actually isn't ok.


----------



## ManchesterBeth (Mar 13, 2021)

goodnight, been nice chatting.


----------



## BlanketAddict (Mar 13, 2021)

Shippou-Sensei said:


> Wow. this thread is a hot take machine.



It's got all sorts!


----------



## Orang Utan (Mar 13, 2021)

There goes the door. Right, where were we?


----------



## polly (Mar 13, 2021)

I agree trashpony - it's the young version of the perennially dodgy pillar of the community type, isn't it. This guy wasn't one of those, though. Which is why even in hindsight I was surprised and unnerved, and why I think it's believable that groups of friends, even clued up ones, can't always spot the rapist in their midst.


----------



## Clair De Lune (Mar 13, 2021)

Winot said:


> Not that many men have responded to the question. I did and I gave an honest response. ‘Admitted’ makes it sound as if we’re deliberately lying. I may be naive but I’m not a liar.


Huh no it doesn't.


----------



## bimble (Mar 13, 2021)

Clair De Lune said:


> Exactly...so few men on this thread have admitted to having mates with dodgy attitudes. And yet these men are everywhere...they gotta be someone's mate.


I know men with these attitudes! I haven’t seen the two I’m thinking of for quite a while but I know em, peripheral friend group from time ago. One’s ended up with a sequence of live-in Thai girlfriends, who do all the domestic work for him and always dress nicely and he pays them, i remember the conversation in which he explained that he’s had enough of trying to navigate the waters of having to try to treat women as equals and prefers to pay money to be absolved of that baffling challenge.  
lechy as fuck he always was, but tolerated as just that’s what he’s like, he’s the sex person.


----------



## Edie (Mar 13, 2021)

dialectician said:


> Says a cis man. You're the biggest hypocrite in the world, wouldn't be surprised if a woman comes out in the future alleging all kinds of things.


Unacceptable. Leave now.


----------



## Clair De Lune (Mar 13, 2021)

dialectician said:


> Says a cis man. You're the biggest hypocrite in the world, wouldn't be surprised if a woman comes out in the future alleging all kinds of things.


This isn't on at all.


----------



## ManchesterBeth (Mar 13, 2021)

Edie said:


> Unacceptable. Leave now.





Edie said:


> Im actually cringing for you, and won’t interact with you further.



Took less than 45 minutes! Love you mate, made my evening.


----------



## lazythursday (Mar 13, 2021)

I'll admit that in the past I've had mates with dodgy attitudes. One in particular who treated women really badly - series of girlfriends, who he would always leech off, manipulate etc, as well as making lots of everyday sexist kind of comments. I think for a long time I took the attitude that it wasn't my place to get involved with other people's relationships - and the thing is with arseholes, they aren't one-dimensional, he could be the most generous and helpful person going at times. What made me take action in the end was that he got sucked into an alt-right anti-feminist worldview, which of course completely justified how he behaves, and after a furious row at a party (where he was later beaten up by the partner of a woman he belittled in some way) we parted company. I'm not really proud of the fact that it was much easier to confront him over political views than his actual real-world actions. 

There are other people in my wider circle of friends, who are more acquaintances really, who I know have a bad reputation with women. They're not men I'd go for a drink with, just people I know, friends of friends, people who go to the same parties etc. I've had to help women friends avoid some of these characters at times. Ideally, people would collectively deal with these people, eject them etc rather than trying to manage the situations they create, but these men are often the type who quickly turn to violence, they are often charismatic and popular, despite how they might behave. 

On another occasion I witnessed a man who I knew slightly drunkenly say something grossly sexual in a threatening way to a female friend in a pub, completely out of the blue. At the time I didn't confront him, but walked her home in case he followed. Then the next day I was fucking incensed and discussed it with people involved with the venue, people who lived in the same community (he was a boater) and tbh I got no support whatsoever. The general feeling was 'oh that's Paul for you, he's a disgusting sleaze, what can you do?'. From men and women. I think we are so conditioned not to make a fuss, and lots of people have the attitude that this is just something that happens that can't be changed, like the weather.


----------



## Edie (Mar 13, 2021)

lazythursday said:


> I'll admit that in the past I've had mates with dodgy attitudes. One in particular who treated women really badly - series of girlfriends, who he would always leech off, manipulate etc, as well as making lots of everyday sexist kind of comments. I think for a long time I took the attitude that it wasn't my place to get involved with other people's relationships - and the thing is with arseholes, they aren't one-dimensional, he could be the most generous and helpful person going at times. What made me take action in the end was that he got sucked into an alt-right anti-feminist worldview, which of course completely justified how he behaves, and after a furious row at a party (where he was later beaten up by the partner of a woman he belittled in some way) we parted company. I'm not really proud of the fact that it was much easier to confront him over political views than his actual real-world actions.
> 
> There are other people in my wider circle of friends, who are more acquaintances really, who I know have a bad reputation with women. They're not men I'd go for a drink with, just people I know, friends of friends, people who go to the same parties etc. I've had to help women friends avoid some of these characters at times. Ideally, people would collectively deal with these people, eject them etc rather than trying to manage the situations they create, but these men are often the type who quickly turn to violence, they are often charismatic and popular, despite how they might behave.
> 
> On another occasion I witnessed a man who I knew slightly drunkenly say something grossly sexual in a threatening way to a female friend in a pub, completely out of the blue. At the time I didn't confront him, but walked her home in case he followed. Then the next day I was fucking incensed and discussed it with people involved with the venue, people who lived in the same community (he was a boater) and tbh I got no support whatsoever. The general feeling was 'oh that's Paul for you, he's a disgusting sleaze, what can you do?'. From men and women. I think we are so conditioned not to make a fuss, and lots of people have the attitude that this is just something that happens that can't be changed, like the weather.


Excellent post. Especially 





> and the thing is with arseholes, they aren't one-dimensional, he could be the most generous and helpful person going at times


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Mar 13, 2021)

dialectician said:


> Says a cis man. You're the biggest hypocrite in the world, wouldn't be surprised if a woman comes out in the future alleging all kinds of things.


This is not on and he has been banned from the thread.


----------



## purenarcotic (Mar 13, 2021)

This may be of interest to some: 









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----------



## 8ball (Mar 13, 2021)

kabbes said:


> I’m the biggest hypocrite in the world, he says.  THE BIGGEST.  You know that person you thought was a hypocrite?  Yeah, even bigger than that.
> 
> Oh hang on, he doesn’t have a fucking clue who I am or anything about me.  Other than that though, he must be right.
> 
> How are those memories of 1980-83 when “we” had a curfew coming on for you?



That was pretty bloody restrained under the circumstances.


----------



## krtek a houby (Mar 14, 2021)

Maybe urban could do a solidarity online thing, where the men don't post on one specified date? It would be just a gesture, if course but it might be a way of showing respect and a willingness to comprehend.


----------



## Rebelda (Mar 14, 2021)

I think a men's march, to end/against male violence, would be powerful. Yes I know a to b marches don't change things, but as an act of solidarity that you yourselves organised, I would like that. Because for fucks sake, male violence is killing men too. Honour women, honour young men, get youth groups involved. Do something.


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 14, 2021)

If there's a fund to pay the fines of those arrested last night I'd be more than happy to contribute


----------



## chilango (Mar 14, 2021)

Rebelda said:


> I think a men's march, to end/against male violence, would be powerful. Yes I know a to b marches don't change things, but as an act of solidarity that you yourselves organised, I would like that. Because for fucks sake, male violence is killing men too. Honour women, honour young men, get youth groups involved. Do something.



I'd happily go on that.

...but it'd get attacked by the cops and men defending themselves would be shown as violent men in the media and ....well, y'know.


----------



## killer b (Mar 14, 2021)

chilango said:


> I'd happily go on that.
> 
> ...but it'd get attacked by the cops and men defending themselves would be shown as violent men in the media and ....well, y'know.


Since when was this a consideration?


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Mar 14, 2021)

trashpony said:


> I view any man who seeks peer approval and aspires to lead with deep suspicion.



Completely.


----------



## chilango (Mar 14, 2021)

killer b said:


> Since when was this a consideration?



Since I read Rebelda's suggestion.


----------



## Rebelda (Mar 14, 2021)

Oh so what? Come up with your own plan then, but police brutality didn't stop women last night so do something. Reads like you (pl) don't actively intend on organising anything. Get your house in order. Talk to each other. I'm out.


----------



## chilango (Mar 14, 2021)

Rebelda said:


> Oh so what? Come up with your own plan then, but police brutality didn't stop women last night so do something. Reads like you (pl) don't actively intend on organising anything. Get your house in order. Talk to each other. I'm out.



I did say I'd happily go on this.

But, you're right, I'm not going to be actively organising anything like this*. And, again, you're right that is very much part of the problem.

(not because of police brutality...that's just me thinking out loud about how it would play out)


----------



## stethoscope (Mar 14, 2021)

Rebelda said:


> I think a men's march, to end/against male violence, would be powerful. Yes I know a to b marches don't change things, but as an act of solidarity that you yourselves organised, I would like that. Because for fucks sake, male violence is killing men too. Honour women, honour young men, get youth groups involved. Do something.



In the current circumstances it really would be something for men to self-organise and show a public display of solidarity like this, and what that would communicate to other men especially those who harbour abusive attitudes to women, often not overtly. Men have to lead this, as whilst women are left to organise their own marches historically, such marches tend to still be marginalised.


----------



## izz (Mar 14, 2021)

stethoscope said:


> In the current circumstances it really would be something for men to self-organise and show a public display of solidarity like this, and what that would communicate to other men especially those who harbour abusive attitudes to women, often not overtly.


I was thinking of this and in the context of the original post, a self-organised curfew for, I don't know, maybe even just one night, would be a powerful thing. Would never happen though because #myrights.


----------



## chilango (Mar 14, 2021)

izz said:


> I was thinking of this and in the context of the original post, a self-organised curfew for, I don't know, maybe even just one night, would be a powerful thing. Would never happen though because #myrights.



I like this idea.


----------



## Red Cat (Mar 14, 2021)

I like it far less than a march which I think would be very powerful, bringing it into the open, and a communication that it can be thought about, together, with other men. A curfew takes it out of the public and shared space and is hidden.


----------



## chilango (Mar 14, 2021)

Red Cat said:


> I like it far less than a march which I think would be very powerful, bringing it into the open, and a communication that it can be thought about, together, with other men. A curfew takes it out of the public and shared space and is hidden.



I dunno. I think the idea of a Friday or Saturday night (post-lockdown) where town centres, and pubs, and takeaways and streets are empty (or at least noticeably emptier) of men would be very powerful.

Like - a bit - when the streets are temporarily empty of cars.

The difficulty, of course, is getting enough men to do it so that it is notable.


Also, of course a self-curfew doesn't preclude a march and vice versa. I'd happily try both.


----------



## neonwilderness (Mar 14, 2021)

chilango said:


> I dunno. I think the idea of a Friday or Saturday night (post-lockdown) where town centres, and pubs, and takeaways and streets are empty (or at least noticeably emptier) of men would be very powerful.
> 
> Like - a bit - when the streets are temporarily empty of cars.
> 
> ...


A self organised curfew would only work if enough people took part, which at the moment probably wouldn’t be enough to be noticeable. 

A march would be more visual, so might be better for raising awareness initially?


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Mar 14, 2021)

chilango said:


> I dunno. I think the idea of a Friday or Saturday night (post-lockdown) where town centres, and pubs, and takeaways and streets are empty (or at least noticeably emptier) of men would be very powerful.
> 
> Like - a bit - when the streets are temporarily empty of cars.
> 
> ...



I’m not sure dark, empty streets devoid of people would create a safer environment for anyone really. And what about men that don’t have a home to go to? What would they do?


----------



## chilango (Mar 14, 2021)

neonwilderness said:


> A self organised curfew would only work if enough people took part, which at the moment probably wouldn’t be enough to be noticeable.
> 
> A march would be more visual, so might be better for raising awareness initially?



Sure.


----------



## chilango (Mar 14, 2021)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> I’m not sure dark, empty streets devoid of people would create a safer environment for anyone really. And what about men that don’t have a home to go to? What would they do?



They wouldn't be devoid of people though would they?


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Mar 14, 2021)

chilango said:


> They wouldn't be devoid of people though would they?



Not literally, no.


----------



## chilango (Mar 14, 2021)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> No literally, no.



Exactly. and we're this to ever happen no one would need nor expect every single man to be at home (plenty would have to work etc.) for the gesture to be effective.

...but it is only a gesture.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Mar 14, 2021)

chilango said:


> Exactly. and we're this to ever happen no one would need nor expect every single man to be at home (plenty would have to work etc.) for the gesture to be effective.
> 
> ...but it is only a gesture.



What would the gesture be effective in achieving?


----------



## chilango (Mar 14, 2021)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> What would the gesture be effective in achieving?



A glimpse of a different world.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Mar 14, 2021)

chilango said:


> A glimpse of a different world.



Well I guess we will have to agree to disagree


----------



## chilango (Mar 14, 2021)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> Well I guess we will have to agree to disagree



Doesn't matter whether we agree or not though does it?

What matters is whether enough men can organise ourselves to play a part in the cultural and behavioural shifts that are needed.


----------



## Sue (Mar 14, 2021)

chilango said:


> Doesn't matter whether we agree or not though does it?
> 
> What matters is whether enough men can organise ourselves to play a part in the cultural and behavioural shifts that are needed.


ItWillNeverWork, do you think we need cultural and behavioural shifts?


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Mar 14, 2021)

Sue said:


> ItWillNeverWork, do you think we need cultural and behavioural shifts?



Absolutely


----------



## Sue (Mar 14, 2021)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> Absolutely


So it's more a disagreement about how they might be achieved? Do you have ideas about how we get there?


----------



## Raheem (Mar 14, 2021)

chilango said:


> Doesn't matter whether we agree or not though does it?
> 
> What matters is whether enough men can organise ourselves to play a part in the cultural and behavioural shifts that are needed.


There's already something happening, though. Why not just support that?

A voluntary curfew would just be a few earnest men doing childcare as a very special gesture of solidarity anyway.

(Not that staying in actually means anything at all ATM, obviously.)


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Mar 14, 2021)

Sue said:


> So it's more a disagreement about how they might be achieved? Do you have ideas about how we get there?



Exactly. I fear a gesture would do nothing but make people feel like they’ve done something when in fact nothing had been achieved. And then we all go back to normal.

I don’t have all the answers of course, but one thing I think needs tackling is the easy access to violent and pornographic material. It’s not healthy for young people growing up to be exposed to this stuff. 

I honestly think many young people are traumatised by having been exposed to some of this stuff, and that a distorted view of sex and violence results.

I could be speaking rubbish of course, but those are my instincts.


----------



## kabbes (Mar 14, 2021)

The problems of objectification and power dynamics started way before porn and grew ever wider regardless of what porn was and wasn’t allowed.  The current horrific situation with porn is a symptom of the problem, not its cause.  Notwithstanding that it feeds back into the problem, helping to self-perpetuate the issue, of course.


----------



## campanula (Mar 14, 2021)

I like marching...I really do. And foremost in my mind is not, 'oooh, look, we are raising public awareness and this will lead to institutional changes'. Nope, it is that incredibly powerful feeling that numbers of people marching and shouting with one voice gives me, a little old woman, with my (sweary) placards and noisy horns, wooden spoons, baking trays and kitchen implements, trailing offspring and friends, a feeling of...power. Being part of the unruly mob. Tell me the ruling classes do not fear us when we act together, with solidarity, and I will laugh in your face. If ever there was a time to literally reclaim our streets, then surely this is a moment to be gathered in and used. I think there will be more of this...and I will attend...and so will my sweetheart. Anger is very energising.


----------



## chilango (Mar 14, 2021)

Raheem said:


> There's already something happening, though. Why not just support that?
> 
> A voluntary curfew would just be a few earnest men doing childcare as a very special gesture of solidarity anyway.
> 
> (Not that staying in actually means anything at all ATM, obviously.)



What is that "something happening"? Can someone point me towards a link to it?


----------



## chilango (Mar 14, 2021)

There's this today if any is able to get to it. 4pm Scotland Yard.


----------



## Sue (Mar 14, 2021)

Raheem said:


> There's already something happening, though. Why not just support that?


What's happening?


----------



## maomao (Mar 14, 2021)

chilango said:


> There's this today if any is able to get to it. 4pm Scotland Yard.



Wrong address there if anyone is going. London police haven't been based there since the 19th century. It's on Victoria Embankment now.

ETA: the Facebook post has been updated and now has the correct address.


----------



## Sue (Mar 14, 2021)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> Exactly. I fear a gesture would do nothing but make people feel like they’ve done something when in fact nothing had been achieved. And then we all go back to normal.
> 
> I don’t have all the answers of course, but one thing I think needs tackling is the easy access to violent and pornographic material. It’s not healthy for young people growing up to be exposed to this stuff.
> 
> ...


So yes, there no doubt is an issue in that violent porn is more easily available. But this was happening way before that, including when I was growing up and before the internet was really a thing.

I don't think anyone is seriously advocating a curfew for men. I think what a lot of people want is for men to start understanding the underlying shit women have to put up with as part of their everyday lives and to understand how fucking exasperating it all is. And for men to take a lead in sorting out their collective shit.


----------



## LeytonCatLady (Mar 14, 2021)

This thread's been thought provoking!

This is also being debated on Twitter and it honestly had never occurred to me before how many women genuinely do fear men or feel scared walking alone after dark, whether that's because of a bad experience or because of the messages we get drummed into us from when we're little girls. I was brought up no differently, but I had two older brothers who, once they were 16 or so, would just go out when they wanted and I thought, "If they can do it, why shouldn't I." That's basically how I've always lived my life. I take precautions like not walking through isolated short cuts, or getting so drunk it renders me incapable. And if a male friend offers to walk me home, I'll accept for the company and his peace of mind, but I won't rely on that happening to the point of not being able to do stuff or go places if those male friends aren't available.

I don't think this hypothetical male curfew would solve anything, as it would just meet sexism with more sexism, and create more of an us/them divide between the sexes than there already is. Reading so many of your stories, I was saddened by what happened to you and can quite understand why it would make you wary of men. And you're absolutely right to do whatever it takes to make you feel safer. But I think as with everything, the answer has to be the longer term process of education.

Now I've made this point already on the Sarah Everard and Sutcliffe threads, but we don't try to scare blokes off the idea of going out at night based on, for example, knife crime stats despite the fact that most stabbing victims are young men under 20. But from the time a little girl reaches double figures, she's taught that she's a potential rape victim because she's a girl and that she shouldn't go anywhere by herself after dark. Yet the most we might say to a lad is "Well, be vigilant but don't be obsessive." So why do we raise girls to be scared but not boys? The usual culprit - patriarchy! Instead, we should get into the habit of normalising women going out whenever the hell we want, something men take for granted. We also need to encourage girls to stick up for themselves when a bloke catcalls, gropes or crosses a boundary, rather than saying "Don't make him angry."


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## Johnny Vodka (Mar 14, 2021)

Being genuinely suggested in Scotland.   Sarah Everard: SNP MP calls for male curfew in areas where women murdered | The National


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## Clair De Lune (Mar 14, 2021)

I think a good start would be to make catcalling and any kind of street harassment illegal. They've already done it in France meaning men who behave in this way can be issued with on the spot fines. 
Police in the UK say they don't have the resources to carry this out and yet they seem to have the resources to move on beggars


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## Edie (Mar 14, 2021)

LeytonCatLady said:


> Now I've made this point already on the Sarah Everard and Sutcliffe threads, but we don't try to scare blokes off the idea of going out at night based on, for example, knife crime stats despite the fact that most stabbing victims are young men under 20. But from the time a little girl reaches double figures, she's taught that she's a potential rape victim because she's a girl and that she shouldn't go anywhere by herself after dark. Yet the most we might say to a lad is "Well, be vigilant but don't be obsessive." So why do we raise girls to be scared but not boys? The usual culprit - patriarchy! Instead, we should get into the habit of normalising women going out whenever the hell we want, something men take for granted. We also need to encourage girls to stick up for themselves when a bloke catcalls, gropes or crosses a boundary, rather than saying "Don't make him angry."


I think this is very bad advice. Sorry. It ignores reality.


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## campanula (Mar 14, 2021)

I am not in favour of any extra policing - fuck that...they are part of the problem. Whatever 'policing' needs to be done has to be internal and a sort of social judgement. William Burroughs referred to the 'inner policeman', which normalises certain behaviours and restricts us because we are aware we are transgressing social norms. Any changes in behaviour have to be initiated through a collective social awareness that 'this is not right and I will not condone it anymore'. I have zero appetite for any state reinforcing of social rules...although I do see the need for legislative change regarding prosecution of rape, for instance. Just very suspicious of allowing such a patriarchal institution as the police to take dominant roles in what really amounts to a long-term cultural changing of attitudes.


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## xenon (Mar 14, 2021)

Clair De Lune said:


> I think a good start would be to make catcalling and any kind of street harassment illegal. They've already done it in France meaning men who behave in this way can be issued with on the spot fines.
> Police in the UK say they don't have the resources to carry this out and yet they seem to have the resources to move on beggars



I can’t find the link now but I’ve got an email regarding a petition on this. Think it was change.org.


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## xenon (Mar 14, 2021)

Not that I mean yeah that will fix it of course. But the thoughts are out there.


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## Clair De Lune (Mar 14, 2021)

Clair De Lune said:


> I think a good start would be to make catcalling and any kind of street harassment illegal. They've already done it in France meaning men who behave in this way can be issued with on the spot fines.
> Police in the UK say they don't have the resources to carry this out and yet they seem to have the resources to move on beggars


I've written to the first minister of Wales and my local MP asking for this. Maybe if we all wrote to our mps we could actually raise awareness of this as an idea.


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## Clair De Lune (Mar 14, 2021)

xenon said:


> I can’t find the link now but I’ve got an email regarding a petition on this. Think it was change.org.











						Sign the Petition
					

Make Cat Calling illegal in the UK




					www.change.org


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## xenon (Mar 14, 2021)

kabbes said:


> The problems of objectification and power dynamics started way before porn and grew ever wider regardless of what porn was and wasn’t allowed.  The current horrific situation with porn is a symptom of the problem, not its cause.  Notwithstanding that it feeds back into the problem, helping to self-perpetuate the issue, of course.



you were talking yesterday about the framing of this problem, as individuals Taking different actions. Saying this approach was missing the point or unlikely to yield widespread change. not putting you on the spot, I was just thinking about it. How would you see a better approach. I mean in an ideal world, what would it look like. I suppose it’s contingent on something changing politically, atomisation, consumer capitalism. But are there any examples of a better approach any where?


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## LeytonCatLady (Mar 14, 2021)

Edie said:


> I think this is very bad advice. Sorry. It ignores reality.


Which is why I said it would need to be a long term process until it becomes normalised. And also why I said that everyone needs to do what they can to feel safer, which was acknowledging reality. All I'm saying is that I'm not going to place myself on voluntary house arrest after dark based on my plumbing because that's not going to solve the issue of women's safety either. Maya Angelou said when a woman stands up for herself, even if it's in a tiny way, she's standing up for all women, and that's what I'm doing by refusing to be restricted. That doesn't mean I expect everyone to do the same if they're not comfortable, just sharing what I do in the hope it might embolden others.


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## Edie (Mar 14, 2021)

LeytonCatLady said:


> Which is why I said it would need to be a long term process until it becomes normalised.


Fair enough. It won’t ever be normalised though completely. Because it’s just a sad fact that you’ll get aberrations like this cunt that no amount of change will prevent doing unspeakable things, and that women will always be weaker and more vulnerable than men. Which is why I think chivalry isn’t just to be avoided but is necessary.


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## SheilaNaGig (Mar 14, 2021)

campanula said:


> I am not in favour of any extra policing - fuck that...they are part of the problem. Whatever 'policing' needs to be done has to be internal and a sort of social judgement. William Burroughs referred to the 'inner policeman', which normalises certain behaviours and restricts us because we are aware we are transgressing social norms. Any changes in behaviour have to be initiated through a collective social awareness that 'this is not right and I will not condone it anymore'. I have zero appetite for any state reinforcing of social rules...although I do see the need for legislative change regarding prosecution of rape, for instance. Just very suspicious of allowing such a patriarchal institution as the police to take dominant roles in what really amounts to a long-term cultural changing of attitudes.




This is why I want men to start talking about this stuff with each other. As things currently stand, the arseholes don’t know that their behaviour is abhored by their brothers because no one seems to call them out for it in general conversation. If the climate inside groups of men were to change I think that would make a material difference.

A bloke I dated briefly in 2015 showed me some pictures of a woman dressed in lingerie and posing provocatively in a bedroom. I was really bewildered about why he was showing them to me. Turned out he was trying to make me jealous by hinting that the photos were sent to him by the woman. But in fact the photos - and many other of similar type - had been circulated amongst his workmates. I was so puzzled. Not at all surprised that the top shelf mag has been replaced by this habit of sharing photos of women via smartphones tbh. But really fucking baffled by his idea that showing me the photos would elicit some kind of standard and somehow required /desired jealousy. 

I asked him loads of questions about who would send the photos, how often, how many, did he show them to other women, is that normal for the other men he knows, where did they get the photos from.... And of course he was really uncomfortable with the questions. He tried to brazen it out, flailed about a bit and  ended up saying he didn’t really know why it happened, and actually didn’t really like it himself. He also admitted that at least one of the men who actively circulated the photos thought it hilarious to bombard the Muslim men with waves and waves of photos, and he himself thought this was out of order.

This is so unwell! I mean it’s really pathological.


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## chilango (Mar 14, 2021)

xenon said:


> you were talking yesterday about the framing of this problem, as individuals Taking different actions. Saying this approach was missing the point or unlikely to yield widespread change. not putting you on the spot, I was just thinking about it. How would you see a better approach. I mean in an ideal world, what would it look like. I suppose it’s contingent on something changing politically, atomisation, consumer capitalism. But are there any examples of a better approach any where?



I think kabbes mentioned something about centering stuff around social reproduction? 

I'd argue that building new collective ways of organising centred on this, on care, and of "commons"* in our social, political and work circles as and when we can and less on individualism, choice and abstract rights. What this looks like in practice across the range of environments people are in I'm not sure...I do know it's not a quick fix, and perhaps we need some quick fixes to tide us over whilst we try and slowly build more fundamental changes.

*I know, I know, some of you more versed in the minutae of the Left can pin point  where this is coming from, and it's attendant issues, but still...


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## chilango (Mar 14, 2021)

SheilaNaGig said:


> This is why I want men to start talking about this stuff with each other. As things currently stand, the arseholes don’t know that their behaviour is abhored by their brothers because no one seems to call them out for it in general conversation. If the climate inside groups of men were to change I think that would make a material difference.



I think this returns us to the impasse identified by a number of male contributers to the thread.

Those of us likely to be open to this kind of calling out are probably a lot less likely to be part of groups of men men where these kinds of attitudes and behaviours manifest openly.

...so how to bridge that gap?


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## LeytonCatLady (Mar 14, 2021)

Edie said:


> Fair enough. It won’t ever be normalised though completely. Because it’s just a sad fact that you’ll get aberrations like this cunt that no amount of change will prevent doing unspeakable things, and that women will always be weaker and more vulnerable than men. Which is why I think chivalry isn’t just to be avoided but is necessary.


Maybe it won't in our lifetime but I don't see that as a reason to give up. And I think part of the reason women are more vulnerable is because we're not brought up to look after ourselves in the way men are, because it's still assumed we'll be looked after by someone. That's something we can change, for example my mum taught me never to rely on a man for anything, and we're already starting to make progress in that regard. But I think girls are still pressured to be "nice" and "not make waves" in the way lads aren't, and this is what I meant.

A big example of this is when a bloke chats you up. I've personally never had a problem saying "Not interested" and nine times out of 10, the bloke himself accepts it. It's other people who give me shit and tell me it would be kinder to say I've got a boyfriend already. I'm not rude to them unless they get nasty with me first, but apparently it's not socially acceptable for me to just not fancy him. I know many women have had very nasty experiences when turning someone down, and again, I don't blame them for wanting to defuse or de-escalate by being tactful. And maybe that's what my acquaintances are thinking of when they advise me not to be blunt, but they make it sound like I'm being mean to him by not hiding behind an imaginary boyfriend. So I get why lots of people do, but no one should have to.

I just don't want to accept that things like sexism and harassment can't be changed. I accept it won't come overnight but I reject the idea that my being a woman makes me inherently weak and vulnerable and that I must hide indoors for my own good. We definitely won't change anything if we think like that.


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## SheilaNaGig (Mar 14, 2021)

chilango said:


> I think this returns us to the impasse identified by a number of male contributers to the thread.
> 
> Those of us likely to be open to this kind of calling out are probably a lot less likely to be part of groups of men men where these kinds of attitudes and behaviours manifest openly.
> 
> ...so how to bridge that gap?




By making it normal for you, your group, to discuss it, and for those discussions to _include this question_.

Decent behaviour and sensible discussion shouldn’t be ghettoised. If your group talk about it, it becomes easier and more natural to extend that discussion to other venues and forums. And someone, someone in your group of decent men could, possibly, maybe, be an arsehole at home with his wife, or a secret groper. You believe all your mates are decent, but there is a chance you could be mistaken.

When I’ve told men friends “that bloke groped me” they sometimes say “him? No, I know him, he wouldn’t do that.”


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## SheilaNaGig (Mar 14, 2021)

SheilaNaGig said:


> By making it normal for you, your group, to discuss it, and for those discussions to _include this question_.
> 
> Decent behaviour and sensible discussion shouldn’t be ghettoised. If your group talk about it, it becomes easier and more natural to extend that discussion to other venues and forums. And someone, someone in your group of decent men could, possibly, maybe, be an arsehole at home with his wife, or a secret groper. You believe all your mates are decent, but there is a chance you could be mistaken.
> 
> When I’ve told men friends “that bloke groped me” they sometimes say “him? No, I know him, he wouldn’t do that.”




The more normal it feels to talk about it, the more normal it will be to talk about it amongst men you don’t know well.

You’ll feel strengthened and amboldened to know that all your mates agree with you, and they’ll be invisibiy at your back when you find your yourself talking with someone who you don’t know well, and who expresses/exhibits misogyny.

And each of you in your group may encounter several others outside your group over the months who do need to engaged in this discussion.

If women are encountering misogynistic men, then so are you. You just don’t realise it.


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## kabbes (Mar 14, 2021)

SheilaNaGig said:


> If women are encountering misogynistic men, then so are you. You just don’t realise it.


Of course we are and the net result of me recognising and calling it out over the years is that I don’t really have any male friends.  Why would they want to hang around with me when I make them feel bad?


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## SheilaNaGig (Mar 14, 2021)

kabbes said:


> Of course we are and the net result of me recognising and calling it out over the years is that I don’t really have any male friends.  Why would they want to hang around with me when I make them feel bad?




I don’t know kabbes 

As I’ve said, I’m tired of talking about it and nothing changing, and I’m out of ideas.


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## chilango (Mar 14, 2021)

SheilaNaGig said:


> By making it normal for you, your group, to discuss it, and for those discussions to _include this question_.
> 
> Decent behaviour and sensible discussion shouldn’t be ghettoised. If your group talk about it, it becomes easier and more natural to extend that discussion to other venues and forums. And someone, someone in your group of decent men could, possibly, maybe, be an arsehole at home with his wife, or a secret groper. You believe all your mates are decent, but there is a chance you could be mistaken.
> 
> When I’ve told men friends “that bloke groped me” they sometimes say “him? No, I know him, he wouldn’t do that.”



I know. I explicitly accepted that possibility above.

...but the question remains, for those of us whose social groups are small, mixed-gender and who already discuss this stuff normally, where do we go from here?


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## Anju (Mar 14, 2021)

I think this story illustrates how deep the problem runs in our society / culture.

Sainsbury's delivery driver returns to a customer's home at 22:00 with some items he 'forgot' to deliver but saying the real reason he returned was to check her out again. Then when she complained was initially fobbed off.  

Sainsbury's driver returns to 'check woman out' after dropping off delivery

I've had a friend horrifically beaten by her regular home from evening job cab driver for rejecting his advances, discovered my mum was abused by her brother but kept silent until his death. My sister was in an abusive relationship for many years and my sister in law was with a man who beat her, took her money, left her with no food and threatened her with a gun so she was too scared to leave.
Those are just the more serious things and there are countless others that I know of or have been involved in. When I say involved I mean things like getting a call from a female friend who thinks she's being followed or having to make it clear that a woman is with male company on a night out.

Like some of the other men here I don't have lads nights out, had a joint stag and hen party when I got married. I would love to be able to help reduce the level of fear and the need to be on your guard that walking while female can involve but outside offering support to the people I know it's difficult to know how to help. As an example a few days ago I was talking to a neighbour and two female joggers ran past. He commented along the lines of they are wearing such tight clothes it's like they want you to look. I pointed out that they're just gym clothes and anyway it's none of his business what they wear, why did it offend him. His reply was that the clothes didn't need to be so short and tight. He seemed to think that it's women's responsibility to consider how their clothing might affect men. I didn't take it any further but if I had I've no idea how I might have convinced him that the problem is with him. 

Felt a bit more positive after seeing some of the men I know posting sensible thoughts on Facebook but then made the mistake of reading the comments under a Metro article about the vigil last night, where many people seem to think antifa and BLM hijacked the vigil.


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## Orang Utan (Mar 14, 2021)

maomao said:


> Wrong address there if anyone is going. London police haven't been based there since the 19th century. It's on Victoria Embankment now.


That IS the correct address


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## maomao (Mar 14, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> That IS the correct address


The Facebook post has been edited since my comment.  I will edit my earlier post.


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## kabbes (Mar 14, 2021)

xenon said:


> you were talking yesterday about the framing of this problem, as individuals Taking different actions. Saying this approach was missing the point or unlikely to yield widespread change. not putting you on the spot, I was just thinking about it. How would you see a better approach. I mean in an ideal world, what would it look like. I suppose it’s contingent on something changing politically, atomisation, consumer capitalism. But are there any examples of a better approach any where?


Well, as I said in that post, I despair at achieving meaningful change because there's so much power aimed at doing the opposite.  I'm also not enough of an anthropologist to be able to tell you of other cultures that do it better.  I am aware, however, that the modern, western, neoliberal, consumer capitalist culture  has all its firepower aimed at persuading people that not only are they  individual agents of free choice but also that they need to market themselves to compete, becoming a product that can be sold, which creates both self-objectification and objectification of others in the process.  The language of the self is increasingly the language of the market -- invest in relationships, you're worth it, be valued etc.  And I am aware that this is not the only way people have ever organised their societies and understood themselves.  I can't believe there aren't other examples out there that have done it better.

What can we actually do?  I think it probably starts by looking at what people actually need to be content and thrive, which is about prioritising social structures, not economic ones.  Value what is central to these structures, like community-building, which, for example, involves feeding the community, looking after its children, facilitating community projects.  Once people see their own identity through the lens of social interaction rather than personal enrichment, there is a chance of empathy and of valuing others for their own humanity rather than what you can get from them.  Only then, really, do people have a chance of being treated with genuine respect.


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## Saunders (Mar 14, 2021)

Get rid of ‘spunking cock’ as an acceptable expression of ‘I despise you and think you’re shit’.


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## Spandex (Mar 14, 2021)

I've been thinking about the idea that it's time for men to take a lead and what I can do.

A few half-baked thoughts:

I try not to be sexist. Over the years I've looked at myself, how I behave around women, and although I don't claim to be perfect I do try check those deeply ingrained sexist impulses that have been drummed into me since childhood. That has been a long and active process of ongoing self-reflection. It's something I've conciously wanted to do. Getting other men to do this isn't just something that'll happen like a Road to Nazareth converstion. It's about planting the seeds and hoping they grow over time. 

Like some other men on this forum I tend not to hang around with aggressive and sleazy men. A few people have said that some of the people I know probably do behave like that and over the decades some of us will have done things we aren't proud of, but different social groups have different social rules. How someone behaves when they are around a group of try-not-to-be sexist male friends may not be how they behave when with a different group. In the same way men can behave differently when their partners and women friends are around, they can behave differently depending on the social group they are with, the difference in what the group considers acceptable and the peer pressure to conform. Some men keep abusive sexist behaviour for a group of friends where his behavior is accepted or applauded. It'll take a huge sea change in societal norms for it to be universally unacceptable. 

Male violence and oppression of women are different, yet linked, things. Male violence affects men as much, although in different ways, to women. I can only think of two of my male friends who haven't been randomly beaten up at some point. I've had three kickings over the years on the street after dark for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. One of my oldest friends was beaten into hospital for four days by two blokes who didn't like how he looked. Another friend had his throat slit when he was robbed. Just last week one of the autistic teenagers I work with was beaten up in the park. Reducing male violence isn't about having a few chats with men, or having a demonstration. It's deeply rooted in a culture that glorifies and rewards aggressive masculine behaviour. This is of course very related to the patriarchal oppression of women, but is such a huge issue that I don't even know where to start on an individual level.


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## stethoscope (Mar 14, 2021)

Saunders said:


> Get rid of ‘spunking cock’ as an acceptable expression of ‘I despise you and think you’re shit’.



But what will I adorn my election voting paper with? (apart from the local police commissioner election where I drew quite a nice pig instead).


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## SheilaNaGig (Mar 14, 2021)

Taken from a friend’s Facebook page:


"Be a lady they said. Your skirt is too short. Your shirt is too low. Your pants are too tight. Don’t show so much skin. Don’t show your thighs. Don’t show your breasts. Don’t show your midriff. Don’t show your cleavage. Don’t show your underwear. Don’t show your shoulders. Cover up. Leave something to the imagination. Dress modestly. Don’t be a temptress. Men can’t control themselves.

Men have needs. You look frumpy. Loosen up. Show some skin. Look sexy. Look hot. Don’t be so provocative. You’re asking for it. Wear black. Wear heels. You’re too dressed up. You’re too dressed down. Don’t wear those sweatpants; you look like you’ve let yourself go. 

Be a lady they said. Don’t be too fat. Don’t be too thin. Don’t be too large. Don’t be too small. Eat up. Slim down. Stop eating so much. Don’t eat too fast. Order a salad. Don’t eat carbs. Skip dessert. You need to lose weight. Fit into that dress. Go on a diet. Watch what you eat. Eat celery. Chew gum. Drink lots of water. You have to fit into those jeans. God, you look like a skeleton. Why don’t you just eat? You look emaciated. You look sick. Eat a burger. Men like women with some meat on their bones. Be small. Be light. Be little. Be petite. Be feminine. Be a size zero. Be a double zero. Be nothing. Be less than nothing. 

Be a lady they said. Remove your body hair. Shave your legs. Shave your armpits. Shave your bikini line. Wax your face. Wax your arms. Wax your eyebrows. Get rid of your mustache. Bleach this. Bleach that. Lighten your skin. Tan your skin. Eradicate your scars. Cover your stretch marks. Tighten your abs. Plump your lips. Botox your wrinkles. Lift your face. Tuck your tummy. Thin your thighs. Tone your calves. Perk up your boobs. Look natural. Be yourself. Be genuine. Be confident. You’re trying too hard. You look overdone. Men don’t like girls who try too hard. 

Be a lady they said. Wear makeup. Prime your face. Conceal your blemishes. Contour your nose. Highlight your cheekbones. Line your lids. Fill in your brows. Lengthen your lashes. Color your lips. Powder, blush, bronze, highlight. Your hair is too short. Your hair is too long. Your ends are split. Highlight your hair. Your roots are showing. Dye your hair. Not blue, that looks unnatural. You’re going grey. You look so old. Look young. Look youthful. Look ageless. Don’t get old. Women don’t get old. Old is ugly. Men don’t like ugly. 

Be a lady they said. Save yourself. Be pure. Be virginal. Don’t talk about sex. Don’t flirt. Don’t be a skank. Don’t be a whore. Don’t sleep around. Don’t lose your dignity. Don’t have sex with too many men. Don’t give yourself away. Men don’t like sluts. Don’t be a prude. Don’t be so up tight. Have a little fun. Smile more. Pleasure men. Be experienced. Be sexual. Be innocent. Be dirty. Be virginal. Be sexy. Be the cool girl. Don’t be like the other girls. 

Be a lady they said. Don’t talk too loud. Don’t talk too much. Don’t take up space. Don’t sit like that. Don’t stand like that. Don’t be intimidating. Why are you so miserable? Don’t be a bitch. Don’t be so bossy. Don’t be assertive. Don’t overact. Don’t be so emotional. Don’t cry. Don’t yell. Don’t swear. Be passive. Be obedient. Endure the pain. Be pleasing. Don’t complain. Let him down easy. Boost his ego. Make him fall for you. Men want what they can’t have. Don’t give yourself away. Make him work for it. Men love the chase. Fold his clothes. Cook his dinner. Keep him happy. That’s a woman’s job. You’ll make a good wife some day. Take his last name. You hyphenated your name? Crazy feminist. Give him children. You don’t want children? You will some day. You’ll change your mind.

Be a lady they said. Don’t get raped. Protect yourself. Don’t drink too much. Don’t walk alone. Don’t go out too late. Don’t dress like that. Don’t show too much. Don’t get drunk. Don’t leave your drink. Have a buddy. Walk where it is well lit. Stay in the safe neighborhoods. Tell someone where you’re going.  Bring pepper spray. Buy a rape whistle. Hold your keys like a weapon. Take a self-defense course. Check your trunk. Lock your doors. Don’t go out alone. Don’t make eye contact. Don’t bat your eyelashes. Don’t look easy. Don’t attract attention. Don’t work late. Don’t crack dirty jokes. Don’t smile at strangers. Don’t go out at night. Don’t trust anyone. Don’t say yes. Don’t say no. 

Just “be a lady” they said." 

Author- Camille Rainville who has a blog called Writings of a Furious Woman. ❤









						Be A Lady They Said
					

Be a lady they said. Your skirt is too short. Your shirt is too low. Your pants are too tight. Don’t show so much skin. Don’t show your thighs. Don’t show your breasts. Don’t show your midriff. Don…




					writingsofafuriouswoman.wordpress.com


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## LeytonCatLady (Mar 14, 2021)

SheilaNaGig said:


> Taken from a friend’s Facebook page:
> 
> 
> "Be a lady they said. Your skirt is too short. Your shirt is too low. Your pants are too tight. Don’t show so much skin. Don’t show your thighs. Don’t show your breasts. Don’t show your midriff. Don’t show your cleavage. Don’t show your underwear. Don’t show your shoulders. Cover up. Leave something to the imagination. Dress modestly. Don’t be a temptress. Men can’t control themselves.
> ...


And that in a nutshell is why we might as well just do what we want. Because as women, we'll be criticised and judged whatever we do. The patriarchy will always move the goalposts.


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## not-bono-ever (Mar 14, 2021)

good work in East Dulwich. More of this required


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## cyril_smear (Mar 15, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> At the very least, we could light certain thoroughfares better. Locally, in Leeds, we have a ginnel that goes from an area with a lot of pubs to an area with a lot of student housing and there have been a large number of assaults.
> it’s got this bad:











						Relief as 'unsafe' Headingley Stadium ginnel set to get CCTV
					

Safety measures announced after student protests last year




					www.leeds-live.co.uk


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## cyril_smear (Mar 15, 2021)

kabbes said:


> I had thought that the idea of a curfew for men was just an interesting diving-off point to open up discussion.  But having seen the contributions each in their own particular way of oli_1_uk, cyril_smear and now dialectician, I’m beginning to think it has genuine appeal.


What’s it got to do with me? 

All I said was what’s being alleged in Leeds’ “rape alley” is disputed 🤷‍♂️ Probably the result of a hoax along the lines of the infamous Mark Feely being spotted everywhere from lands end to John ogroats all in the same day.


----------



## kabbes (Mar 15, 2021)

cyril_smear said:


> What’s it got to do with me?
> 
> All I said was what’s being alleged in Leeds’ “rape alley” is disputed 🤷‍♂️ Probably the result of a hoax along the lines of the infamous Mark Feely being spotted everywhere from lands end to John ogroats all in the same day.


Your entire attitude in this thread has provided the second best case yet for keeping men off the streets.  The fact you don’t understand why merely makes the case for promoting you to best case.


----------



## cyril_smear (Mar 15, 2021)

kabbes said:


> Your entire attitude in this thread has provided the second best case yet for keeping men off the streets.  The fact you don’t understand why merely makes the case for promoting you to best case.


It gives you something to rage about though.


----------



## kabbes (Mar 15, 2021)

cyril_smear said:


> It gives you something to rage about though.


Can you point to an example of me raging at you?


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Mar 15, 2021)

SheilaNaGig said:


> Taken from a friend’s Facebook page:
> 
> 
> "Be a lady they said. Your skirt is too short. Your shirt is too low. Your pants are too tight. Don’t show so much skin. Don’t show your thighs. Don’t show your breasts. Don’t show your midriff. Don’t show your cleavage. Don’t show your underwear. Don’t show your shoulders. Cover up. Leave something to the imagination. Dress modestly. Don’t be a temptress. Men can’t control themselves.
> ...



Much of this is spot on. But how much of this is women judging and placing expectations on eacher other, as opposed to men placing expectations on women? For example,

"Be a lady they said. Wear makeup. Prime your face. Conceal your blemishes. Contour your nose. Highlight your cheekbones. Line your lids. Fill in your brows. Lengthen your lashes. Color your lips. Powder, blush, bronze, highlight. Your hair is too short. Your hair is too long. Your ends are split. Highlight your hair. Your roots are showing. Dye your hair. Not blue, that looks unnatural. You’re going grey. You look so old. Look young. Look youthful. Look ageless. Don’t get old. Women don’t get old. Old is ugly. Men don’t like ugly."

I've never known a single man speak like this about a woman,  or expect this from a woman. The vast majority wouldn't know the difference between countouring and bronzing and blushing and highlighting. It's certainly an alien landscape to a bozo like me.

So is it just patriarchy, or is it a social dynamic more nuanced than that?

Like I said though, much of what you said is valid.


----------



## Edie (Mar 15, 2021)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> Much of this is spot on. But how much of this is women judging and placing expectations on eacher other, as opposed to men placing expectations on women? For example,
> 
> "Be a lady they said. Wear makeup. Prime your face. Conceal your blemishes. Contour your nose. Highlight your cheekbones. Line your lids. Fill in your brows. Lengthen your lashes. Color your lips. Powder, blush, bronze, highlight. Your hair is too short. Your hair is too long. Your ends are split. Highlight your hair. Your roots are showing. Dye your hair. Not blue, that looks unnatural. You’re going grey. You look so old. Look young. Look youthful. Look ageless. Don’t get old. Women don’t get old. Old is ugly. Men don’t like ugly."
> 
> ...


Do you know that the patriarchy doesn’t equal men? (I didn’t for years so no judgement here!)


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Mar 15, 2021)

Edie said:


> Do you know that the patriarchy doesn’t equal men? (I didn’t for years so no judgement here!)



It's ok, no judgement or offense taken. My understanding of the term patriarchy is male rule.


----------



## Edie (Mar 15, 2021)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> It's ok, no judgement or offense taken. My understanding of the term patriarchy is male rule.


I _think_ it means the society structure that maintains male priviledge- so it could be maintained by men or women.


----------



## killer b (Mar 15, 2021)

Edie said:


> I _think_ it means the society structure that maintains male priviledge- so it could be maintained by men or women.


I heard an interesting doc on r4 a few years ago that looked into the data about women being passed over for jobs, book deals, etc etc and the same biases against giving women positions were found from female decision makers - IIRC it might even have been worse.


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 15, 2021)

killer b said:


> I heard an interesting doc on r4 a few years ago that looked into the data about women being passed over for jobs, book deals, etc etc and the same biases against giving women positions were found from female decision makers - IIRC it might even have been worse.




As I’ve said said elsewhere, the conditioning goes very deep.

The easiest and most efficient way to maintain the status quo of any system is for those within it to maintain it.

See also capitalism etc


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 15, 2021)

Edie said:


> I _think_ it means the society structure that maintains male priviledge- so it could be maintained by men or women.




Yes. Maintained by men and by women (not or: and)

Which is why sexism and misogyny are not the same as the patriarchy, although of course they’re interconnected and mutually symptomatic.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Mar 15, 2021)

Edie said:


> I _think_ it means the society structure that maintains male priviledge- so it could be maintained by men or women.



Exactly right. Both men and women have a part to play in maintaining and perpetuating institutionalised misogyny.

The policing minister said today that 10 years for defacing a statue is right because they have lots of 'emotional value'.

It's 5 years for rape.   

KitCunthouse will no doubt be backed up by Piranha Patel.


----------



## campanula (Mar 15, 2021)

I was also a bit shocked at the earlier notallmenning which was going on upthread...because ime, it actually is all men.  Obviously, they are not all doing it all the time...but ho, yes, I have eyes to see and know we don't like turning a spotlight on our own less than enlightened behaviour but I know absolutely that both my long-term (37years) partner and my 2 male offspring are absolutely capable (and in certain circs, willing) to use their size, strength, hormones, privilege, history, social positioning to hit a smaller, weaker human being. At the very least, please own this because at the heart of any dialogue must be openness and honesty....including a sly complicity that women, will also use these loaded weapons to ensure status and privilege. This greedy injustice, this absolute weighting of the scales precludes a real conversation about where we are where we are...and obviously, women who still choose to live our lives with our male lovers, our sons, our friends and colleagues...well we need to have a good look at who is doing the manipulating and why.
And to recognise that violence against anyone oppressed by their class, ethnicity, bodies, beliefs, history and convention, creates damage, one way or another. This includes the false valorisation of some spurious 'manliness'...which keeps us locked in some terrible, brutal patterns of behaviour.


----------



## hitmouse (Mar 15, 2021)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> Much of this is spot on. But how much of this is women judging and placing expectations on eacher other, as opposed to men placing expectations on women? For example,
> 
> "Be a lady they said. Wear makeup. Prime your face. Conceal your blemishes. Contour your nose. Highlight your cheekbones. Line your lids. Fill in your brows. Lengthen your lashes. Color your lips. Powder, blush, bronze, highlight. Your hair is too short. Your hair is too long. Your ends are split. Highlight your hair. Your roots are showing. Dye your hair. Not blue, that looks unnatural. You’re going grey. You look so old. Look young. Look youthful. Look ageless. Don’t get old. Women don’t get old. Old is ugly. Men don’t like ugly."
> 
> ...


The point made above about patriarchy not equalling men is a good one, but I'd also add that you don't have to understand a certain beauty process to appreciate the results, and/or to be negative about people/women not practicing it (especially ones that are so normalised as to be an expectation). Maybe that's like a jumble of words, but I'd say like: a man doesn't have to understand the ins and outs of dieting, calorie counting, and all the rest of that stuff, to express a preference for women who live up to a certain standard of slimness, or to be demeaning about women who don't live up to that standard. Similarly with the other things mentioned in that quote, men who aren't familar with those things might still think that a woman who does all of them "looks right" and a woman who doesn't do them doesn't.


----------



## campanula (Mar 15, 2021)

Well yes, we all absorb these little nudges to keep us anxious, uncomfortable and spending our measly wages on ensuring the status quo remains totally fixed. It is very hard to step outside of these structures (I am enjoying the freedoms of the old, irrelevant and largely invisible, but not sure we all should be waiting on becoming some senile nonentity to throw off the shackles of bourgois individualism ( see, I still remember some of the lingo despite having hidden in a shed for the last 3 decades).


----------



## lazythursday (Mar 15, 2021)

campanula said:


> I was also a bit shocked at the earlier notallmenning which was going on upthread...because ime, it actually is all men.  Obviously, they are not all doing it all the time...but ho, yes, I have eyes to see and know we don't like turning a spotlight on our own less than enlightened behaviour but I know absolutely that both my long-term (37years) partner and my 2 male offspring are absolutely capable (and in certain circs, willing) to use their size, strength, hormones, privilege, history, social positioning to hit a smaller, weaker human being. At the very least, please own this because at the heart of any dialogue must be openness and honesty....including a sly complicity that women, will also use these loaded weapons to ensure status and privilege. This greedy injustice, this absolute weighting of the scales precludes a real conversation about where we are where we are...and obviously, women who still choose to live our lives with our male lovers, our sons, our friends and colleagues...well we need to have a good look at who is doing the manipulating and why.
> And to recognise that violence against anyone oppressed by their class, ethnicity, bodies, beliefs, history and convention, creates damage, one way or another. This includes the false valorisation of some spurious 'manliness'...which keeps us locked in some terrible, brutal patterns of behaviour.


I really don't recognise myself in that - but perhaps it's the way you've worded it. I am not a violent man, and have absolutely no urge to be except defensively. But have I behaved sexistly towards women? Yes, and often haven't realised it sometimes until years later, particularly in a work context where looking back I can see instances where I've viewed the same behaviour as eager and proactive from a man and pushy and irritating from a woman. I think all men (and women) carry these cultural views but I don't think we're all capable and willing of using violence to achieve our ends. And on the role of women - yes, when I have pushed back against bad male behaviour at times some of the most vociferous defenders of the man in question were women - there are plenty of women ready to defend male behaviour, and I don't think this is necessarily always 'complicity' in a conscious sly way, its a kneejerk defence of the patriarchal behaviour based on a lifetime of conditioning.


----------



## Wilf (Mar 15, 2021)

trashpony said:


> The most rapey blokes I've come across are those who are central to their social group. So the guy who leads the Young Communists, the guy who is in charge of Extinction Rebellion at your university - those are the ones who use their power and position to abuse and assault women. And they know that - because of their power and position - the women are unlikely to be believed. After all, if most of the women want to fuck him because he's king of the student union, why would he want to rape a woman?
> 
> I view any man who seeks peer approval and aspires to lead with deep suspicion.


Definitely. Left groups are littered with abusive 'leaders', who become surrounded with all the psychological tools of power so that accusers are disbelieved.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Mar 15, 2021)

SheilaNaGig said:


> The easiest and most efficient way to maintain the status quo of any system is for those within it to maintain it.





SheilaNaGig said:


> Yes. Maintained by men and by women (not or: and)



indeed.  

like some of the shite in the daily mail (etc) written by women (who are being paid by men) to tell other women to hate themselves / other women / women who argue for feminism.  there's one or two articles like that circulating today and i'm not going to pollute urban with them...


----------



## 8ball (Mar 15, 2021)

Puddy_Tat said:


> indeed.
> 
> like some of the shite in the daily mail (etc) written by women (who are being paid by men) to tell other women to hate themselves / other women / women who argue for feminism.  there's one or two articles like that circulating today and i'm not going to pollute urban with them...



Not sure whether you're suggesting it would be better if they were paid by women.  I think that's a fanciful idea. I think it's also the case in some publications.


----------



## LDC (Mar 15, 2021)

Just been chatting to a 17 year old young woman about this whole thing. She was totally up for a 6pm curfew for men, she said her and her friends would go out much more and feel much safer, and how things are now she doesn't often feel safe out.

Also she says it's very common for very young boys (10 or so) at her school to use aggressively sexual language against young women about her age, and the teachers dismiss it as 'just boys being boys.'

Grim.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Mar 15, 2021)

8ball said:


> Not sure whether you're suggesting it would be better if they were paid by women.  I think that's a fanciful idea.



not really - on the experience of prime ministers, for example...


----------



## 8ball (Mar 15, 2021)

Puddy_Tat said:


> not really - on the experience of prime ministers, for example...



Small sample size.  But can't argue there.


----------



## bimble (Mar 15, 2021)

Home Secretary & head of the police being women at this moment is a pretty stark illustration of how things are not that simple at all, how much bigger the problem is than shuffling a few women who are quite happy with the status quo into positions of power.


----------



## 8ball (Mar 15, 2021)

bimble said:


> Home Secretary & head of the police being women at this moment is a pretty stark illustration of how things are not that simple at all, how much bigger the problem is than shuffling women who are quite happy with the status quo into positions of power.



Maybe trashpony's rule about aspiring leaders could do with extending a little.


----------



## LeytonCatLady (Mar 15, 2021)

This Ask a Manager letter gave me a bit of hope and shows there are decent men who will challenge bad behaviour. Trigger warning for pervy boss, but his new hire not only challenged him but did it on his first day when he must've been worried about making the wrong impression. Fair play mate.









						I reported my boss to HR on my first day, an AWOL manager, and more
					

It’s five answers to five questions. Here we go… 1. I reported my boss to HR on my first day Last week, I started at a new job that relocated me across




					www.askamanager.org
				




Also, I was talking to my brother today, who told me his nine-year-old son recently challenged quite a misogynist remark made by one of his schoolfriends (the friend's sister went out in a certain dress that the lad told everyone made her look like a slag). Anyway, my nephew spoke up and told him "She's your sister! Even if you think that, you shouldn't say it." We were really proud of him, because it's not always easy to speak up even for adults (and relieved, because he was recently going through his own hate-girls phase, so he's hopefully grown out of that). My brother praised him, and they had a man-to-man, age-appropriate chat about sexism and why it's wrong. Apparently, his son then said "Dad, my sister's a pain at times but I wouldn't talk about her when she's not there or call her any names." That was really good to hear.


----------



## LDC (Mar 16, 2021)

Seriously, plain clothes police officers in nightclubs? FFS, that is a joke. Is that what they came up with?!


----------



## izz (Mar 16, 2021)

Tell me about it LynnDoyleCooper, so now if women want to go clubbing they have the additional worry of potentially meeting some more Waynes. Hilarious, in a very black sense of humour way.


----------



## bimble (Mar 16, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Seriously, plain clothes police officers in nightclubs? FFS, that is a joke. Is that what they came up with?!


what where is this from? This is the worst idea they've had for at least a day.


----------



## LDC (Mar 16, 2021)

bimble said:


> what where is this from? This is the worst idea they've had for at least a day.



Project Vigilant, all very Brass Eye.









						Police could patrol nightclubs in drive to protect women
					

Steps to improve safety in England and Wales include plainclothes patrols of bars and clubs and more funds for streetlights and CCTV




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## 8ball (Mar 16, 2021)




----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Mar 16, 2021)

Don't worry, I'm sure there will be no downside whatsoever to the government sending spies into nightclubs to eavesdrop on peoples' conversations.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Mar 16, 2021)

and how long before the first of these undercover coppers abuses their position?

or before you get shits pretending to be undercover coppers and so on?  

(i'd have no idea what a proper warrant card looks like.  and for that matter not sure i could say what a proper police uniform looks like other than varying degrees of black and high-vis)


----------



## Poot (Mar 16, 2021)

No idea. On saturday whilst running i saw a man in a police uniform with a backpack over his hi vis vest so the word Police (i think) was obscured. He was carrying a co op bag. As the police often do, he gave me a great big welcoming smile. I dont think i have ever run so fast.

I mean, what the fucking hell is the thinking behind this 'more police in bars' shit? They literally could not have got it wronger.


----------



## 8ball (Mar 16, 2021)

Poot said:


> As the police often do, he gave me a great big welcoming smile.



Really?  I've only seen that happen once and I figured it was his first day.


----------



## Poot (Mar 16, 2021)

8ball said:


> Really?  I've only seen that happen once and I figured it was his first day.


Oh no, i cant fault their smiling and saying hello capacities around here. But then i believe ted bundy was quite good at that, too.


----------



## rasputin (Mar 16, 2021)

> _Not a curfew, as such, but iirc, they have women only train carriages in Japan, and in Mexico they have women only buses._


_Indian trains too, women’s carriages. Also (last year anyway) they have posters all over the train about sexual harassment and don’t do it._

This is also found (which may be a surprise if you don't know the region) in Dubai and Saudi Arabia. Women-only trains, public spaces, banks.  Many shopping malls have designated "family days" for parents and children. Dubai also has a women-only taxi service, applying to both drivers and passengers


----------



## 8ball (Mar 16, 2021)

rasputin said:


> _Indian trains too, women’s carriages. Also (last year anyway) they have posters all over the train about sexual harassment and don’t do it._
> 
> This is also found (which may be a surprise if you don't know the region) in Dubai and Saudi Arabia. Women-only trains, public spaces, banks.  Many shopping malls have designated "family days" for parents and children. Dubai also has a women-only taxi service, applying to both drivers and passengers



Yeah, I wonder why they have those...


----------



## bimble (Mar 16, 2021)

rasputin said:


> _Indian trains too, women’s carriages. Also (last year anyway) they have posters all over the train about sexual harassment and don’t do it._
> 
> This is also found (which may be a surprise if you don't know the region) in Dubai and Saudi Arabia. Women-only trains, public spaces, banks.  Many shopping malls have designated "family days" for parents and children. Dubai also has a women-only taxi service, applying to both drivers and passengers


Indian big cities have that too (women driver & passengers only taxis). It’s not a good sign when these things are necessary & popular.


----------



## Sue (Mar 16, 2021)

rasputin said:


> _Indian trains too, women’s carriages. Also (last year anyway) they have posters all over the train about sexual harassment and don’t do it._
> 
> This is also found (which may be a surprise if you don't know the region) in Dubai and Saudi Arabia. Women-only trains, public spaces, banks.  Many shopping malls have designated "family days" for parents and children. Dubai also has a women-only taxi service, applying to both drivers and passengers


India, Dubai and Saudi Arabia -- all renowned for being great places to be a woman...


----------



## bimble (Mar 16, 2021)

Indian women have done a lot these last couple of years, since a horrific gang rape & murder on public transport that ignited rage all over about the issue of women risking their lives when they walk down the street. Really massive protests, a chain of women holding hands for miles and miles across the country, it’s worth having a read about. Police complicity in sexual violence a big part of the story there too.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Mar 16, 2021)

there have at various times been 'womens' safe transport' schemes in the UK - have vague recollections of hearing about one (obviously not something i was involved in either providing or using) in london some time in the 80s, and have found a few archive items for a cardiff based on in the late 80s / early 90s.

it's not for me to say what women may want / consider appropriate here, i'm aware (from a gay male perspective) that there are occasional discussions about where the dividing lines are between safe space / self organisation / ghetto / enforced segregation. 

in the case of saudi, my question would be whether women are allowed out at other times / in other spaces.  in bits of the USA until the 60s, the black people weren't sitting at the back of the bus by choice...


----------



## rasputin (Mar 16, 2021)

Sue said:


> India, Dubai and Saudi Arabia -- all renowned for being great places to be a woman...



Missing my point. If such arrangements are possible in places like this, they are surely possible here.


----------



## neonwilderness (Mar 16, 2021)

rasputin said:


> Missing my point. If such arrangements are possible in places like this, they are surely possible here.


It might be better if things changed so such arrangements weren't needed.


----------



## Sue (Mar 16, 2021)

rasputin said:


> Missing my point. If such arrangements are possible in places like this, they are surely possible here.


I'm very sure they are possible in places where women are often segregated away as part of everyday life.   My point is that I don't want them to be possible here -- IMO, that would be an enormous backwards step. Separating women from men is not the solution. The solution is men not harassing and attacking women. FFS.


----------



## bimble (Mar 16, 2021)

rasputin said:


> Missing my point. If such arrangements are possible in places like this, they are surely possible here.


There used to be "ladies only" compartments on trains here too, late 1800s until the 70's. This is not the answer.


----------



## LeytonCatLady (Mar 16, 2021)

Sue said:


> I'm very sure they are possible in places where women are often segregated away as part of everyday life.   My point is that I don't want them to be possible here -- IMO, that would be an enormous backwards step. Separating women from men is not the solution. The solution is men not harassing and attacking women. FFS.


If I could love this comment a hundred times, I would.


----------



## Orang Utan (Mar 17, 2021)

A constructive conversation about what men can do to stop all this shit:








						‘The time for men to step up is right now!’: what all men can do to help end violence against women
					

Over the past week, women have shared their stories of abuse, harassment and assault. Is it time for men to join the fight to dismantle the culture that allows this violence to flourish? A panel of male experts on masculinity and violence against women explain the vital steps men can take




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## 8ball (Mar 17, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> A constructive conversation about what men can do to stop all this shit:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It's a big juggernaut to turn around, but good to see mainstream media places saying things like:

"...the thing is, learned behaviour is passive. These attitudes and beliefs about manhood, they’re actively taught. It’s media culture, sports culture, peer culture and porn culture. All these influences teach men certain lessons about manhood and social norms that are produced and reproduced at every level. "


----------



## weltweit (Mar 17, 2021)

I am still so furious about the killing of Sarah Everard I am finding it hard to string together coherent sentences on the subject.

How does a man become so perverted they think they can pluck a woman off the streets, kidnap and later kill her and then try to cover their tracks. Who knows what ordeal he put her through in between kidnap and killing. And he obviously thought he could get away with it.

How do such deviant evil individuals emerge? are they born bad? do they learn? Did his behaviour around his police colleagues give cause for concern? Is it true he twice indecently exposed himself earlier that week? Have there been earlier crimes?


----------



## weltweit (Mar 17, 2021)

It is all very well saying men must look out for their own, it is true it is men that do these evil acts, but what to look out for? Misogynistic men who are unpleasant about women are not men I chose to spend time with, there have been three over the years whose behaviour I found fairly repellent, I didn't want to spend any more time in their company than was absolutely necessary.

The police didn't know they had a killer within their ranks, as I understand it they authorised him to carry firearms, surely a role where profiling would be of the utmost importance. Yet they didn't know they had a killer in their midst.


----------



## weltweit (Mar 17, 2021)

I can't think of many worse crimes, assuming conviction I think he deserves a whole life sentence. Let him rot in prison, a life for a life.

Other men considering such evil acts need to know they will be caught and they will spend the rest of their lives locked up in prison. Perhaps that might make them think again.


----------



## ElizabethofYork (Mar 17, 2021)

Sue said:


> I'm very sure they are possible in places where women are often segregated away as part of everyday life.   My point is that I don't want them to be possible here -- IMO, that would be an enormous backwards step. Separating women from men is not the solution. The solution is men not harassing and attacking women. FFS.



You expressed that far more politely than I was going to!


----------



## 8ball (Mar 17, 2021)

weltweit said:


> It is all very well saying men must look out for their own, it is true it is men that do these evil acts, but what to look out for? Misogynistic men who are unpleasant about women are not men I chose to spend time with, there have been three over the years whose behaviour I found fairly repellent, I didn't want to spend any more time in their company than was absolutely necessary.
> 
> The police didn't know they had a killer within their ranks, as I understand it they authorised him to carry firearms, surely a role where profiling would be of the utmost importance. Yet they didn't know they had a killer in their midst.



That’s my difficulty with this - I have no idea whether men who make the odd iffy comment are related to the group that may be capable of acts like this.  In the one case that springs to mind most readily, he would have been the most “on message” of all of us, and the women in the group didn’t pick up any vibes or anything.  It shook us up a bit to all be so profoundly wrong about something so impactful.

There’s obviously a hierarchy of “making things feel shit and unsafe for women” behaviours that we can and should do something about, but I’m not sure whether it addresses any extreme evil shit like this.


----------



## weltweit (Mar 17, 2021)

8ball said:


> ..
> There’s obviously a hierarchy of “making things feel shit and unsafe for women” behaviours that we can and should do something about, but I’m not sure whether it addresses any extreme evil shit like this.


Indeed, I don't get it either, is a builder who wolf whistles at a passing woman on a hierarchy whose end is killing someone? I have no comprehension of a man so perverse they think killing a woman is an acceptable act!


----------



## kabbes (Mar 17, 2021)

weltweit said:


> Indeed, I don't get it either, is a builder who wolf whistles at a passing woman on a hierarchy whose end is killing someone? I have no comprehension of a man so perverse they think killing a woman is an acceptable act!


Which would you prefer — to have that comprehension or to not have that comprehension?


----------



## weltweit (Mar 17, 2021)

kabbes said:


> Which would you prefer — to have that comprehension or to not have that comprehension?


I probably would prefer to know, then I might be able to do something about it, but it has to be a lot to get ones head around, so out of the normal run of behaviour as it is. And one might think that if any group of men should know the precursors and tendencies that such a killer might have, it would be the police themselves, yet they seem to have had no idea about this guy.


----------



## kabbes (Mar 17, 2021)

weltweit said:


> I probably would prefer to know, then I might be able to do something about it, but it has to be a lot to get ones head around, so out of the normal run of behaviour as it is. And one might think that if any group of men should know the precursors and tendencies that such a killer might have, it would be the police themselves, yet they seem to have had no idea about this guy.


I’m not talking about “knowing”, which is an abstract, intellectual process.  I’m talking about comprehending, which is an empathetic one.


----------



## Athos (Mar 17, 2021)

weltweit said:


> I probably would prefer to know, then I might be able to do something about it, but it has to be a lot to get ones head around, so out of the normal run of behaviour as it is. And one might think that if any group of men should know the precursors and tendencies that such a killer might have, it would be the police themselves, yet they seem to have had no idea about this guy.



I wouldn't be so sure that fellow officers didn't have doubts that he might be a wrong 'un (even if the official testing didn't indicate that).  That's a big part of how this stuff continues; people become emboldened when others turn a blind eye, which happens often for reasons of organisational culture e.g. a misplaced sense of loyalty.


----------



## weltweit (Mar 17, 2021)

kabbes said:


> I’m not talking about “knowing”, which is an abstract, intellectual process.  I’m talking about comprehending, which is an empathetic one.


Actually I don't think I am likely to be able to comprehend someone like this killer. Empathy implies putting yourself in someone else's shoes, not sure I can do that here.


----------



## elbows (Mar 17, 2021)

We could learn from countries that do better (after first checking that they actually do better rather than just being better at covering up the problem).

We could explore the broken, half-arsed attitudes towards many forms of intervention in this country.

We could explore the extent to which disgusting media entities in this country are the enemy of change.

We could turn the bloody street lights back on.


----------



## kabbes (Mar 17, 2021)

weltweit said:


> Actually I don't think I am likely to be able to comprehend someone like this killer. Empathy implies putting yourself in someone else's shoes, not sure I can do that here.


In which case, there is little point trying to take you on that journey, and all you can do is write them off as a monster, which you can feel lucky that you are nothing like.  This will achieve nothing but it will help you feel better.


----------



## Red Cat (Mar 17, 2021)

kabbes said:


> In which case, there is little point trying to take you on that journey, and all you can do is write them off as a monster, which you can feel lucky that you are nothing like.  This will achieve nothing but it will help you feel better.



How do you understand such perverse violence?


----------



## elbows (Mar 17, 2021)

I suspect that in order to find any real hope with these issues, the same elusive ingredient that I find lacking with most stuff involving humans is probably required.

Fixing power. If we were designing a society, a set of values and beliefs and behaviours and ways to talk about and deal with things, how would we fix issues of power? Cant we come up with something that has workable stuff on that front at its heart, informing every aspect of its design and implementation? Something that continually rebalances, equalises and grounds power in all its forms, in all human relationships, families, institutions and interactions? Something that stops power being concentrated, and stops it being held over one person by another.


----------



## bimble (Mar 17, 2021)

elbows said:


> We could turn the bloody street lights back on.


Are there fewer street lights now than at some previous time ? Or was this a metaphor.


----------



## Orang Utan (Mar 17, 2021)

bimble said:


> Are there fewer street lights now than at some previous time ? Or was this a metaphor.


There are not enough lights on Clapham Common, but the streets Everard walked in are quite well lit, busy thoroughfares.


----------



## bimble (Mar 17, 2021)

I see that some people are really campaigning for this, where lights have been turned off for some hours every night to save energy / money.
Example








						Call for overnight street lighting to be reinstated in Lincs
					

"It doesn’t make sense to keep denying local residents the security we deserve"




					www.lincolnshirelive.co.uk
				












						Sarah Everard: Calls to turn Warwickshire street lights on over safety fears
					

Chloe Fojtik says she was "touched" by the death of Sarah Everard, adding "everyone should feel safe".



					www.bbc.co.uk
				




it’s not something I could get behind personally but I get why people think it would make them feel safer.

CCTV in parks likewise, not my idea of making things better but that’s what’s on offer, alongside policemen in jeans in clubs.


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## elbows (Mar 17, 2021)

Yeah its an austerity era thing that was also dressed up as being part of dealing with climate change and energy issues. People are obviously more aware of it where its actually been done. Energy is one of the big stories of this century, but I do not like some of the consequences of this policy or the way its been implemented.


----------



## elbows (Mar 17, 2021)

Would we see more action if men were subject to an additional tax on their income, with the rates set in relation to how many women were victims of various forms of violence over the past year?


----------



## bimble (Mar 17, 2021)

It’s not the dark that is dangerous, obvs.
But these are the quick ‘fix’ responses you’d expect.


----------



## Raheem (Mar 17, 2021)

bimble said:


> CCTV in parks likewise, not my idea of making things better but that’s what’s on offer, alongside policemen in jeans in clubs.


I can't see coppers being sent to clubs and it not ending up being mostly about drugs.


----------



## kabbes (Mar 17, 2021)

Red Cat said:


> How do you understand such perverse violence?


I’ve tried to describe my own attempts to understand it on a few occasions on this thread.


----------



## elbows (Mar 17, 2021)

bimble said:


> It’s not the dark that is dangerous, obvs.
> But these are the quick ‘fix’ responses you’d expect.



Well when urban planning goes wrong there are very real consequences, including various forms of crime and violence. It is certainly true that they are far from the whole of the story, many other rotten things in a society come together to create the situations of violence, intimidation, etc. But I wouldnt want to leave out simple practical aspects just because they are not the root of the problem, such deficits are still enablers. Practical fixes can also be a small but important part of trying to break various hideous cycles of insecurity that sometimes involve especially dangerous feedback loops and set the scene for horror. Also priorities on such simple fronts often say something about the broader priorities of a society, what they value, what they actually care about.


----------



## kabbes (Mar 17, 2021)

Saying that^^, I am well aware there are very different approaches one could take to trying to understand this kind of violence.  From my hazy understanding of your specialty, Red Cat , I think you might come at it from a rather different direction?


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## Red Cat (Mar 17, 2021)

kabbes said:


> I’ve tried to describe my own attempts to understand it on a few occasions on this thread.



I'm on day three of a migraine, I probably shouldn't have asked the question as I haven't the wherewithal to discuss it.


----------



## bimble (Mar 17, 2021)

elbows yes, all true. Urban planning & the physical environment does have massive impacts on how life is.
I didn’t know about the street lights issue but from what I see it’s in ‘low crime’ / residential areas that they are turned off for a few hours at night? It’s a bit of a personal one this as my old flat, there was a very bright street lamp 2m from my living room window, on all night, and I fantasised about slingshots a lot. Light pollution has serious negatives in my opinion, more light isn’t a simple good.


----------



## kabbes (Mar 17, 2021)

Red Cat said:


> I'm on day three of a migraine, I probably shouldn't have asked the question as I haven't the wherewithal to discuss it.


Sounds bad 

However you approach it, though, I do think that if you are serious about comprehending the problem, it can’t start from a position of othering and/or dehumanising the perpetrator.  If you insist on doing that, it means you don’t really want to comprehend them.  And that’s fine as a self-protective mechanism, but in turn it means you can give up on the idea of ever really doing anything about it.


----------



## Cloo (Mar 17, 2021)

In a way it's really big picture, long term massive shifts that are needed.  To me, it seems there is a profound issue whereby a lot of guys simply don't see women as full human beings worthy of respect, especially women they don't know.

I think to even start changing things we'd need, for example, a massive reduction in objectifying images of women - we're so used to it we don't notice that images of scantily/sexily clad women are fucking everywhere and collectively I think it's a big part of women being taken less seriously in the public sphere. Yes, such images of men exist, but they are far, far less ubiquitous and have no effect on men as a class of human being, whatever Incels might say.


----------



## Edie (Mar 17, 2021)

I’ve been asking myself this same question, what role the patriarchy plays in rare stranger abduction/murders like this. Is it the end point of a spectrum from wolf whistling onwards? Or does this kind of aberrant, very disturbed behaviour stand alone. A woman or child the target more often just because they are weaker. Is it even in the public domain whether there was a sexual motive? (Rhetorical question).

I stand to be corrected/educated, but were/are these kinds of crimes more prevalent in times/places where gender roles are more defined? Do we know?


----------



## elbows (Mar 17, 2021)

bimble said:


> elbows yes, all true. Urban planning & the physical environment does have massive impacts on how life is.
> I didn’t know about the street lights issue but from what I see it’s in ‘low crime’ / residential areas that they are turned off for a few hours at night? It’s a bit of a personal one this as my old flat, there was a very bright street lamp 2m from my living room window, on all night, and I fantasised about slingshots a lot. Light pollution has serious negatives in my opinion, more light isn’t a simple good.



The finally changed the light opposite my house to a modern type a few months ago, and it does an impressive job of focussing the light downwards and for quote a long way along the street. And when looking directly across at it from an upstairs window, the nature of how much light is beaming directly in our direction has completely changed for the better.


----------



## kabbes (Mar 17, 2021)

Cloo said:


> In a way it's really big picture, long term massive shifts that are needed.  To me, it seems there is a profound issue whereby a lot of guys simply don't see women as full human beings worthy of respect, especially women they don't know.
> 
> I think to even start changing things we'd need, for example, a massive reduction in objectifying images of women - we're so used to it we don't notice that images of scantily/sexily clad women are fucking everywhere and collectively I think it's a big part of women being taken less seriously in the public sphere. Yes, such images of men exist, but they are far, far less ubiquitous and have no effect on men as a class of human being, whatever Incels might say.


It’s not just the category “woman” that is objectified.  We live in a society that is not just deeply objectifying but actually commodifying — we are encourage to see not just others but ourselves as marketable products.  I think this kind of violence is just the very unpleasant tip of a massive iceberg.


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## 8ball (Mar 17, 2021)

kabbes said:


> Sounds bad
> 
> However you approach it, though, I do think that if you are serious about comprehending the problem, it can’t start from a position of othering and/or dehumanising the perpetrator.  If you insist on doing that, it means you don’t really want to comprehend them.  And that’s fine as a self-protective mechanism, but in turn it means you can give up on the idea of ever really doing anything about it.



LESS UNDERSTANDING, MORE CONDEMNING!! 

<sharpens green felt pens>

edit: it’s not just about self-protection, it’s about jostling for position within the ingroup


----------



## 8ball (Mar 17, 2021)

kabbes said:


> It’s not just the category “woman” that is objectified.  We live in a society that is not just deeply objectifying but actually commodifying — we are encourage to vote not just others but ourselves as marketable products.  I think this kind of violence is just the very unpleasant tip of a massive iceberg.



My company has a training course on “establishing your personal brand”.

People there just seem to think this is normal.


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## kabbes (Mar 17, 2021)

8ball said:


> My company has a training course on “establishing your personal brand”.
> 
> People there just seem to think this is normal.


In that case, you’d  love this paper





__





						SAGE Journals: Your gateway to world-class research journals
					

Subscription and open access journals from SAGE Publishing, the world's leading independent academic publisher.




					journals.sagepub.com
				




If you can’t access it normally, go to Sci-Hub: removing barriers in the way of science and enter the url in there

ETA: I actually meant this one: https:///10.1111/socf.12418
But the one I put up there is good too!

From the second paper, quote your company this from the conclusion:



> The question then arises as to the consequences that unfold when workers actually put personal branding discourse to use. Does the use of this discourse result in stable or enduring forms of subjectivity, aligned with market norms? Although our data do not allow us to address this question empirically, we believe the use of personal branding is likely to introduce new sources of tension and contradiction into contemporary economic life (Gershon 2016). Thus, personal branding defines itself as providing a means of empowerment, even as it requires that actors surrender themselves to market demands. Personal branding must also present itself as fostering a labor of discovery—the unearthing of an authentic, preexisting self—rather than simply the forging of a newly fabricated (and thus potentially arbitrary) form of subjectivity (Pagis and Ailon 2017). These tensions seem likely to infuse elements of instability into the labor of personal branding over time. Moreover, the logic of personal branding invites its users to pursue their own economic needs, a stance at odds with the interests (and brands) of their employers (Vallas and Cummins 2015), adding a further source of conflict and instability.


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## weltweit (Mar 17, 2021)

kabbes said:


> ..
> However you approach it, though, I do think that if you are serious about comprehending the problem, it can’t start from a position of othering and/or dehumanising the perpetrator.  If you insist on doing that, it means you don’t really want to comprehend them.  And that’s fine as a self-protective mechanism, but in turn it means you can give up on the idea of ever really doing anything about it.


I don't agree with your proposition that killers can or should be normalised. By definition they are rare outliers of society, they don't conform to societal norms, by their actions they alienate themselves. That does not in any way mean that they cannot be studied, be understood, be analysed, be evaluated, be learnt from. They will always be a tiny corner of the full range of society, about which many will not want to know, and more will not want to forgive.


----------



## kabbes (Mar 17, 2021)

weltweit said:


> I don't agree with your proposition that killers can or should be normalised. By definition they are rare outliers of society, they don't conform to societal norms, by their actions they alienate themselves. That does not in any way mean that they cannot be studied, be understood, be analysed, be evaluated, be learnt from. They will always be a tiny corner of the full range of society, about which many will not want to know, and more will not want to forgive.


Well, good luck with that.  Let me know what you learn.


----------



## 8ball (Mar 17, 2021)

kabbes said:


> In that case, you’d  love this paper
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You’d think the final point would be fucking obvious to anyone regardless of market indoctrination (_because_ of it, even). Still they come out with this kind of nonsense after each staff mini-exodus thinking it will foster “engagement”. 

Will def give the whole paper a look.  Cheers.


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## Red Cat (Mar 17, 2021)

kabbes said:


> Sounds bad
> 
> However you approach it, though, I do think that if you are serious about comprehending the problem, it can’t start from a position of othering and/or dehumanising the perpetrator.  If you insist on doing that, it means you don’t really want to comprehend them.  And that’s fine as a self-protective mechanism, but in turn it means you can give up on the idea of ever really doing anything about it.



It's also possible that someone who doesn't want to turn away is intellectually defended against the horror of it. It's a very far end of a continuum to abduct, kill and mutilate someone so that they were only identifiable by their dental records.


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 17, 2021)

kabbes said:


> Well, good luck with that.  Let me know what you learn.




Be fair.
It’s a huge area of research and study.

Speaking personally, I look at stats studies and docs about abusers killers etc in my effort to understand better.

My brother, a doctor of psychology, specialises in this area. There is plenty of background stuff that seems to form patterns, but then when we’re on the ground meetting one person on one night, we don’t a apply those larger metrics to our decision making. Instead we apply what we know from our own personal experience.

I have to admit, right now I’m, like, “bloke = dangerl” 
Sorry but.


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 17, 2021)

Red Cat said:


> It's also possible that someone who doesn't want to turn away is intellectually defended against the horror of it. It's a very far end of a continuum to abduct, kill and mutilate someone so that they were only identifiable by their dental records.




But it is a spectrum, a continuum. Isn’t it?

As has been said, you don’t go from nought to this horror in a single step.

He didn’t go from indecent exposure to abduction and murder in a 24/48 hour period.


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 17, 2021)

weltweit said:


> It is all very well saying men must look out for their own, it is true it is men that do these evil acts, but what to look out for? Misogynistic men who are unpleasant about women are *not men I chose to spend time with*, there have been three over the years whose behaviour I found fairly repellent, I didn't want to spend any more time in their company than was absolutely necessary.
> 
> The police didn't know they had a killer within their ranks, as I understand it they authorised him to carry firearms, surely a role where profiling would be of the utmost importance. Yet they didn't know they had a killer in their midst.



You, men, get to choose. The women these fucks prey on can’t walk away.

It needs to be understood. By men, I mean.
You can choose not to spend time with the dickheads. The women on the receiving end of their abusive behaviour do not have that choice.



8ball said:


> That’s my difficulty with this - I have no idea whether men who make the odd iffy comment are related to the group that may be capable of acts like this.  In the one case that springs to mind most readily, he would have been the most “on message” of all of us, and the women in the group didn’t pick up any vibes or anything.  It shook us up a bit to all be so profoundly wrong about something so impactful.
> 
> There’s obviously a hierarchy of “making things feel shit and unsafe for women” behaviours that we can and should do something about, but I’m not sure whether it addresses any extreme evil shit like this.




I would put money on the idea that Couzens was given various free passes over the years; had the wit to test boundaries,  learn how to sail close to the wind without putting the wind up others, he was learning how to pass., and he did that by getting away with minor sins and transmissions over a period of time.

IMO.





weltweit said:


> I probably would prefer to know, then I might be able to do something about it, but it has to be a lot to get ones head around, so out of the normal run of behaviour as it is. And one might think that if any group of men should know the precursors and tendencies that such a killer might have, it would be the police themselves, yet they seem to have had no idea about this guy.




I bet they fucking did though.

I bet they’re comparing notes now.





weltweit said:


> I see that some people are really campaigning for this, where lights have been turned off for some hours every night to save energy / money.
> Example
> 
> 
> ...




I really don’t want that s to lead to more surveillance though...

The change has to come from the other end, underneath.


----------



## Red Cat (Mar 17, 2021)

SheilaNaGig said:


> But it is a spectrum, a continuum. Isn’t it?
> 
> As has been said, you don’t go from nought to this horror in a single step.
> 
> He didn’t go from indecent exposure to abduction and murder in a 24/48 hour period.



Sure, but I think it's hard to keep in mind both the horror and extremity of this kind of violence, and what it might have in common with other violence, both individual and in groups. There are similarities and differences. When I have worked with children who are violent the quality of lashing out violence and enjoyment of cruelty has been quite different in kind, one isn't, doesn't seem to be, an escalation of the other, in any simple way anyway.


----------



## Orang Utan (Mar 17, 2021)

SheilaNaGig said:


> You, men, get to choose. The women these fucks prey on can’t walk away.
> 
> It needs to be understood. By men, I mean.
> You can choose not to spend time with the dickheads. The women on the receiving end of their abusive behaviour do not have that choice.


Not sure what we can do about those men then. Giving up on them and working on the next generation is not good enough. So we’ll have to work out how to get through to those unreconstructed dickheads. I am stumped about how to go about this, mind. Am going to be looking out for ideas on this.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Mar 17, 2021)

Edie said:


> I’ve been asking myself this same question, what role the patriarchy plays in rare stranger abduction/murders like this.



Stranger abduction/murder accounts for 8% (1 in 12 cases) apparently.



> Stranger killing accounts for 8%, or one in 12, of all killings of women by men. Between 2009 and 2018, 119 women were killed by men who were not known to them. Yes, a woman is more likely to be killed by someone she knows – every three days in the UK by a man and every four days by a partner or former partner – but following the killing of Sarah Everard, we are being fed a narrative by Metropolitan Police chief Cressida Dick that it is “incredibly rare for a woman to be abducted from our streets”_._
> 
> By that simple statement the Met minimised the risk women face from men, and intentionally diminished femicide. ‘“Incredibly rare” should mean much more than very unusual. “Abducted from our streets” is a curious deflection. Strangers do abduct women, but they also kill women on the street, or follow them, or enter their homes. And friends, acquaintances, partners and colleagues also abduct women they know and kill them. It is also far more common to be abducted from the street and raped, attacked or sexually assaulted with impunity.











						Cases like Sarah Everard's are not 'incredibly rare' and the police must admit it
					

Cressida Dick’s statement minimised the risk women face from men – and fits with years of police and government failure to treat the issue seriously




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 17, 2021)

Raheem said:


> I can't see coppers being sent to clubs and it not ending up being mostly about drugs.


Just seen an incredible yougov poll on plainclothes police in clubs in which has completely thrown me


----------



## Treacle Toes (Mar 17, 2021)

I don't believe any of it.


----------



## Red Cat (Mar 17, 2021)

Rutita1 said:


> Stranger abduction/murder accounts for 8% (1 in 12 cases) apparently.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



8% is much higher than I thought. That femicide report makes for very distressing reading.


----------



## Raheem (Mar 17, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Just seen an incredible yougov poll on plainclothes police in clubs in which has completely thrown me
> 
> View attachment 259158


Anyway, based on my extensive research involving various TV police dramas, if the police are going to go into a club it will almost always be a strip club, usually in the daytime while the strippers happen to be rehearsing. So most clubs should end up being cop-free most of the time.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Mar 17, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Just seen an incredible yougov poll on plainclothes police in clubs in which has completely thrown me





Rutita1 said:


> I don't believe any of it.





wonder exactly how the question was led up to / put, which (as 'sir humphrey' demonstrated at one point in 'yes minister' can get opposite answers to the same question)

YG do have some form for a 'what answer do you want?' approach to whoever's funding any particular poll...


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 17, 2021)

Red Cat said:


> Sure, but I think it's hard to keep in mind both the horror and extremity of this kind of violence, and what it might have in common with other violence, both individual and in groups. There are similarities and differences. When I have worked with children who are violent the quality of lashing out violence and enjoyment of cruelty has been quite different in kind, one isn't, doesn't seem to be, an escalation of the other, in any simple way anyway.



RIght.
Which is why it’s so important to keep studying this stuff : the subtle differences, the commonality, the factors that set one thing in converse to the other.

But by the time someone gets to adulthood, patterns are set, bridges are burned, habits have gelled.

I’d suggest (based on nothing approaching your insight knowledge experience etc) that by the time they get into adulthood, there’s nothing much to distinguish the wounded lashing out one from the one who enjoys cruelty, at least in the way it is  materially experienced by the recipient.

In effect, the psychopathic partner isn't much different to the damaged one who is acting out his own damage.

(Setting aside the ones who murder, I suppose.)



(I realise there are in fact vast differences, and the women involved will be keenly able to know one from the other. But materially, in terms of lashes and smacks amd sums extorted, there’s not much between them. I don’t know what can be done about the malignant narcissist, the psychopath; probably nothing. Tattoo them so other women know to stay the fuck away.



I have a sneaky suspicion that this prick got high on his own supply. I don’t think he was revving uo to become a serial killer. I think he forgot where the line is. Because no one ever told him “you’re over the line pal”. Because he was a nice smily guy, one of the lads, a charmer, one who always aimed for a certain type of women, stayed away from anyone who would ever tell him “you’re a prick”.

I suspect he has a history of sexual assault, date rape, insidious nastiness that he’s always gotten away with. Just like a lot of blokes.

I don’t think he is an extreme outlier; I think he’s shocked by what he did. I think he tripped up, tripped over the line

That’s actually terrifying.




As others (men) have identified on here, by the time a misogynist is openly displaying his hatred and emotional violence, they are necessarily isolated from and shunned by other men who might temper their attitudes.



Women, however, are neither shielded from these men by society or other men, nor able to change or deflect  their hatred.


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 17, 2021)

more yougov


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 17, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> Not sure what we can do about those men then. Giving up on them and working on the next generation is not good enough. So we’ll have to work out how to get through to those unreconstructed dickheads. I am stumped about how to go about this, mind. Am going to be looking out for ideas on this.




Right now, based on recent experience and observation, I feel like I just don’t want to go near any men at all.

Which is shit, because up until a year or two ago, I have always really loved men and enjoyed them and celebrated them.


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 17, 2021)

Rutita1 said:


> Stranger abduction/murder accounts for 8% (1 in 12 cases) apparently.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Wow.

That’s higher than I would have guessed.


----------



## Red Cat (Mar 17, 2021)

SheilaNaGig said:


> RIght.
> Which is why it’s so important to keep studying this stuff : the subtle differences, the commonality, the factors that set one thing in converse to the other.
> 
> But by the time someone gets to adulthood, patterns are set, bridges are burned, habits have gelled.
> ...



I haven't suggested not studying anything or even that he be considered an outlier, I said it was at an extreme end of a continuum, which it is, even if more common than extremely rare. 

You've written a long post but I haven't been well and I can't respond to it. I might come back to it when I can think.


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 18, 2021)

Red Cat said:


> I haven't suggested not studying anything or even that he be considered an outlier, I said it was at an extreme end of a continuum, which it is, even if more common than extremely rare.
> 
> You've written a long post but I haven't been well and I can't respond to it. I might come back to it when I can think.




I know you’ve not suggested not studying it.
I was agreeing with you saying that we ought to pay attention, study.
And agreeing that this is extreme, although not vanishingly rare.
I don’t think he is an outlier, not really. I think that was the point of my post (which is quite rambling).

No need to respond. Thread is moving quite fast, I think we’re in general agreement anyway.

Hope you feel better very soon.


----------



## Raheem (Mar 18, 2021)

He's obviously an outlier in the loose sense that he's committed a statistically uncommon crime which most people would view as extreme. But I don't think it's a particularly useful way to conceptualise things. We normally talk about outliers when we are talking about data that can be objectively valued and compared. But here we're not, we're talking about subjective judgement. There's no way of saying "murdering a stranger is an extra X points along the y-axis, so here we have an outlier".


----------



## Edie (Mar 18, 2021)

Rutita1 said:


> Stranger abduction/murder accounts for 8% (1 in 12 cases) apparently.


Difficult to face reading that.

I agree that 8% stranger is higher than I would think. (Its worth noting that includes terrorism too). About 13 women a year. I wonder why we don’t hear about the others


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## kabbes (Mar 18, 2021)

Raheem said:


> He's obviously an outlier in the loose sense that he's committed a statistically uncommon crime which most people would view as extreme. But I don't think it's a particularly useful way to conceptualise things. We normally talk about outliers when we are talking about data that can be objectively valued and compared. But here we're not, we're talking about subjective judgement. There's no way of saying "murdering a stranger is an extra X points along the y-axis, so here we have an outlier".


Indeed.

And it’s only the crime of murder that is the bit that’s the outlier. The behaviour was extreme. The subjectivity that underlies that murder is not.

Viewing others as objects to be used to your own advantage.  That’s so normal that the whole discipline of economics was built around assuming it applied universally.

Viewing women in particular as objects of sexual gratification.  That’s so normal that it’s taken for granted in the mainstream stories of our popular media. It’s not even an outlier to act on this objectification in violent ways, such as sexual assault. 

SheilaNaGig is right that this is all around us.  If one in three women have experienced attacks, that’s pretty normal.  Given its normality, I’m willing to bet that a lot of sexual attacks (as understood by the one in three women that experience them) feature men that probably don’t even remember they did it because that behaviour was so normalised.  

You can come up with special systems of internal violence unique to this individual and this would be a totally fair thing to note . Do it well enough and it might even help you understand the specific psychodynamics that led this particular individual to cross this specific line. But I would still say that _comprehending_ the violence starts with empathising with the way we are _all_ subjectified into a system of viewing others as being there for us to take advantage of as best we can.  Otherwise, the best you’re ever going to manage is to treat individual murderers after event and maybe a handful before things get that bad.


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## killer b (Mar 18, 2021)

Puddy_Tat said:


> wonder exactly how the question was led up to / put, which (as 'sir humphrey' demonstrated at one point in 'yes minister' can get opposite answers to the same question)
> 
> YG do have some form for a 'what answer do you want?' approach to whoever's funding any particular poll...


I did this poll, there wasn't anything leading in the question or the questions leading up to it. I'd guess the numbers are right (I'm surprised by them too).


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## killer b (Mar 18, 2021)

Mind you, I suspect going to clubs on the regular might be something of a minority sport these days. I wonder what the result would be if they were able to give a crossbreak for 'people who actually go to nightclubs'?


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## Clair De Lune (Mar 18, 2021)

*wish I hadn't posted this actually as it upset me all over again. Gone.


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## bimble (Mar 18, 2021)

bloody hell Clair De Lune . neither the angry smiley or the sad one, fuck. And fuck also the fact that i read your testimony and yet again think how lucky i have been to not have been assaulted. As if that were a great prize, which it is but so shouldn't be.


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## Clair De Lune (Mar 18, 2021)

The bouncer was fired btw, me and my friends made sure of that. But the CCTV that covered the incedent and my conversation with the bouncer magically disappeared.


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## LeytonCatLady (Mar 18, 2021)

..


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## killer b (Mar 18, 2021)

Edie said:


> I agree that 8% stranger is higher than I would think. (Its worth noting that includes terrorism too). About 13 women a year. I wonder why we don’t hear about the others


my back of a fag packet calculations brings the number down by about 20 (most of those from the Manchester bombing) if you remove terrorist attacks fwiw - but even with that reduction it's still surprisingly high. 

We probably don't hear about the others because they're black / poor I'd imagine.


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## Steel Icarus (Mar 18, 2021)

How did you manage to quote that as being posted by weltweit?


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## LeytonCatLady (Mar 18, 2021)

S☼I said:


> How did you manage to quote that as being posted by weltweit?


No idea! Sorry about that Clair De Lune .


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## bimble (Mar 18, 2021)

Quite good this, though we have heard it all before (on the endless body count of dead and raped women that are churned out for our entertainment). 








						From Line of Duty to The Fall: why can't TV shows stop killing women?
					

Extreme violence against women seems to have become a staple of TV crime shows. Writers and producers reveal what’s behind the high female body count – and what needs to change




					www.theguardian.com


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## Clair De Lune (Mar 18, 2021)

LeytonCatLady said:


> God, what a disgusting individual that copper was. And how scary the car incident must've been. I'm glad you got away.


Would you be able to delete this please LeytonCatLady ?


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## Treacle Toes (Mar 18, 2021)

...and this is the attitude...stop being emotive girls, it's inappropriate...


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## LeytonCatLady (Mar 18, 2021)

Clair De Lune said:


> Would you be able to delete this please LeytonCatLady ?


Done.


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## Clair De Lune (Mar 18, 2021)

LeytonCatLady said:


> Done.


Thanks x


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## ddraig (Mar 18, 2021)

Rutita1 said:


> ...and this is the attitude...stop being emotive girls, it's inappropriate...



What emotive language though??? weird blundering bloke!


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## Clair De Lune (Mar 18, 2021)

ddraig said:


> What emotive language though??? weird blundering bloke!


It's the modern version of hysterical. Now we're called too sensitive or emotional. A guy can shout, swear and lose his shit but if we dare sound impassioned we're crazy.


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## ddraig (Mar 18, 2021)

Clair De Lune said:


> It's the modern version of hysterical. Now we're called too sensitive or emotional. A guy can shout, swear and lose his shit but if we dare sound impassioned we're crazy.


Yup!
Don't get what Ellie Reeves said that could be considered "emotive" in that clip


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## killer b (Mar 18, 2021)

ddraig said:


> Yup!
> Don't get what Ellie Reeves said that could be considered "emotive" in that clip


it was the 'decriminalisation of rape' line. Which is true, but they don't like being told cause it makes them feel bad.


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## ddraig (Mar 18, 2021)

killer b said:


> it was the 'decriminalisation of rape' line. Which is true, but they don't like being told cause it makes them feel bad.


thanks


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## killer b (Mar 18, 2021)

TBH she was pulling her punches. Everyone knows rape has already been decriminalised to all intents and purposes.


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## Treacle Toes (Mar 18, 2021)

Shut up girls...stop being so intemperate...Statues provoke an emotional attachment....aha.


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## Clair De Lune (Mar 18, 2021)

Calm down ladies. Arghh.


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## Sue (Mar 18, 2021)

Clair De Lune said:


> Calm down ladies. Arghh.


I think you're getting hysterical there, Clair De Lune.


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## 8ball (Mar 18, 2021)

Statue-hating women.


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## Clair De Lune (Mar 18, 2021)

Sue said:


> I think you're getting hysterical there, Clair De Lune.


Won't somebody slap me


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## 8ball (Mar 18, 2021)

I think aside from the obvious, that exchange was quite enlightening because Tory Boy openly admits the increase in legislation is because some monuments (the Cenotaph being the example given) _aren't monetarily worth very much _(but we need to make exceptions because we like them).

"Of _course_ the function of the law is to protect wealth - oops, fuck fuck fuck..."


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## Clair De Lune (Mar 18, 2021)

Just my feeling on why it's so important to share our stories but how incredibly hard it can be to do so. Still shaking now tbf.


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## weltweit (Mar 18, 2021)

Fair play Clair De Lune your story about the car was proper scary, so glad you had your wits about you!


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## Clair De Lune (Mar 18, 2021)

weltweit said:


> Fair play Clair De Lune your story about the car was proper scary, so glad you had your wits about you!


Thanks mr.


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## friendofdorothy (Mar 18, 2021)

campanula said:


> Um, have just whipped to the end of the thread (so probably missed something pertinent) but felt compelled to mention that while women may have been advised to stay safely in our homes (during at least one notorious episode within my lifetime)...we didn't. O no, we took to the streets in loud, boisterous marching, shouting, banging on our pots and pans and feeling...fucking invincible. I would be thrilled to see a revival of Reclaim the Night marches (obvs, when pandemic restrictions allow) because we are certainly not served by being passive, meek and obedient. I participated in many of these protests, with my kids, both male and female) and it honestly felt as though feminism had become mainstream (I guess friendofdorothy  has some memories of this). Power....who has it and for what use, was the basic issue for me...and I much regret the slow subsiding of feminism as it became slowly subsumed in a welter of capitalist machinations (the confusing 3rd wave)...not least the fucking pornographers playground of the internet. When we were conned into thinking that our bodies were actually just another commodity to be bartered (and those who resisted were nastily let down by our own sisters ...cos hey, we are taking charge of our own bodies to sell as we like. Sure you are. I definitely recall feeling diminished for not embracing the glorious opportunities to become female pornographers, kink shaming, the vile attitudes towards less photogenic feminists such as Andrea Dworkin. Yep, quite a few older women felt politically homeless,
> I think the sexual freedom for everyone has come back to bite us in the arse, watching our daughters and grand-daughters doing that endless dance of wanting to belong, to have agency...but only being accepted if we put our bodies up for titillation. Course, this might just be me (I have, for the longest time, turned my back on the treacherous world of sex for power)...but all the great new promised freedoms of a newsexual revolution has not really benefitted me and mine in any noticeable way...although I will concede that the commodification of the self has badly affected men...but since the initial power imbalances never came near to a fair resolution, this was only ever going one way. For brutal illustration...when middle class women get their kit off (for money) it is burlesque. When w.c women do it, we are just strippers. Yep, I know this is hugely simplistic...but it holds an undeniable truth (for me) that we have a bloody long way to go.


Thanks campanula agree with all you say, you put it well.
Yes I recall going on RECLAIM THE NIGHT MARCHES in the early 80s - after the police told women to stay home when the 'yorkshire ripper' was at large. I was furious. Why was I told to stay home when I wasn't the dangerous one? Really angry that predatory male behaviour was considered so normal and acceptable that it was considered womens fault for allowing it to happen.  Really saddened to hear from my younger female relatives that they get approached, followed, groped, harrassed just the same now. There has always been an unofficial curfew on women, public space still isn't our space.


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## SheilaNaGig (Mar 18, 2021)

I think maybe this thing about being afraid to walk along the street is a misnomer, or a misunderstanding or a misrepresentation. (At least in part. I’m not minimising or dismissing the tangibleand identifiable fears that plenty of us experience when walking on the street)

I think maybe it’s PTSD.

Maybe it’s the trauma of what has happened to us over the years of our life, and knowing that every other woman is also objectified, dismissed, disrespected, and abused, verbally, emotionally, psychically, sexually, physically, financially, politically.

Women who have been assaulted, who have been attacked, who have escaped abduction, been goosed and pinched and pummeled and mauled and groped, been rubbed up against, been gripped and pawed and stared at and hissed at and sneered at and invited to sit  on faces or choke on a strangers cock, verbally abused and insulted if we decline the invitation or deflect the advances, these women are carrying trauma.

We've been experiencing all this and more since we were, like, ten years old, right up into our fifties (these are my parameter ages, so far), on buses and in pubs and parks and on the escalator, the school playground, in church, on trains, in taxis, and in clubs and restaurants, when we’re alone or with friends, when our boyfriend/girlfriend goes to the bar, or while reading a book on a park bench, at work, in the lift, in the queue for the loo, and at home in our kitchens and lliving rooms by delivery men, repair men, plumbers, and in the dentists chair, the doctors surgery, in our bedroom, by our lovers, uncles, cousins...

We’re all traumatised, to some extent or another. Even if we’ve not been subjected to the worst of it, it has happened to our friends, sisters, daughters, the mothers and sisters of our friends, and our daughters too, our nieces and goddaughters, the children and the nieces of our friends.

When we make a new women friend, we know this is also true for her.

And when we try to talk about it, we shake and shudder, we get jumpy and twitchy, we flinch when the door slams in the wind, or when the dressing gown falls off the hook, or when a stranger gently touches our arm.

So we don’t talk about it, because what’s they point, who will listen, what difference does it make. We don’t need to tell our sisters, because we know we all have the same stories, and we don’t bother telling our brothers because they can’t or won’t understand.

And we try not to think about it, because we can’t talk about it.

We push it down, we turn the volume down so it doesn’t drown out our relationships and our laughter and our connections, so that we can walk down the street and get the bus and go to work and to the shops, the doctor, the pubs, the clubs, get in to taxis and go home to our partner.

But that trauma is in us.

I’m not scared to walk down the street or sit on a  park bench, travel by train. I’m not scared to do those things; I’m scared of what has already happened to me, and the way it sits inside me, like an alarm bell that never shuts off.








I know that things are shit for men too, that men are also abused.
This is a deeply unwell situation.
Maybe if women were not abused, men would not be abused either.


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## LeytonCatLady (Mar 18, 2021)

friendofdorothy said:


> Thanks campanula agree with all you say, you put it well.
> Yes I recall going on RECLAIM THE NIGHT MARCHES in the early 80s - after the police told women to stay home when the 'yorkshire ripper' was at large. I was furious. Why was I told to stay home when I wasn't the dangerous one? Really angry that predatory male behaviour was considered so normal and acceptable that it was considered womens fault for allowing it to happen.  Really saddened to hear from my younger female relatives that they get approached, followed, groped, harrassed just the same now. There has always been an unofficial curfew on women, public space still isn't our space.


That's why I feel I owe it to myself and other women to just go out when I need or want to, whether it's dark or not, and go to a pub by myself if I want (another thing that's still commented on, and I've actually made new friends doing this, as people aren't used to seeing a woman sitting alone with a pint, so they invited me to sit with their group). Reclaim the Night is a great concept, so I choose to apply it to my everyday life. Public space is just as much our space as anyone's, we just need to assert our right to use it without apology or permission.


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## Clair De Lune (Mar 18, 2021)

friendofdorothy said:


> Thanks campanula agree with all you say, you put it well.
> Yes I recall going on RECLAIM THE NIGHT MARCHES in the early 80s - after the police told women to stay home when the 'yorkshire ripper' was at large. I was furious. Why was I told to stay home when I wasn't the dangerous one? Really angry that predatory male behaviour was considered so normal and acceptable that it was considered womens fault for allowing it to happen.  Really saddened to hear from my younger female relatives that they get approached, followed, groped, harrassed just the same now. There has always been an unofficial curfew on women, public space still isn't our space.


Yes indeed, the world is still not ours to enjoy with the ease a man does. I wish I knew how we change that honestly. Cos I like plenty of men and their company.


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## friendofdorothy (Mar 18, 2021)

I refused to stop going out on my own - to walk down the street to be out on my own after dark - it was a practical necessity but it was always a conscious act of defiance on my part. The price being years of self conscious and hyper vigilance. It takes a toll on a person. As SheilaNaGig  said like an alarm bell that never shuts off.


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## 8ball (Mar 18, 2021)

Clair De Lune said:


> Yes indeed, the world is still not ours to enjoy with the ease a man does.



Certainly not with the ease that I enjoy it now I'm in my 40's.
<tangent> I think things were a little more violent when I was in my 20's than it is now for most young men, though. </tangent>

Obviously the violence is coming from men in both cases, which echoes SheilaNaGig's last sentence a bit.


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## 8ball (Mar 18, 2021)

friendofdorothy said:


> I refused to stop going out on my own - to walk down the street to be out on my own after dark - it was a practical necessity but it was always a conscious act of defiance on my part. The price being years of self conscious and hyper vigilance. It takes a toll on a person.



Big respect for that.  Can understand any woman thinking "fuck it" tbh.


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## Clair De Lune (Mar 18, 2021)

friendofdorothy said:


> I refused to stop going out on my own - to walk down the street to be out on my own after dark - it was a practical necessity but it was always a conscious act of defiance on my part. The price being years of self conscious and hyper vigilance. It takes a toll on a person. As SheilaNaGig  said like an alarm bell that never shuts off.


I did the same. I refuse to let fear win and quite often I win over fear. I totally understand why some women are overcome with fear though. I think perhaps that a weird kinda PTSD has caused a numbness in me where I'm like yeah? C'mon then.


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## 8ball (Mar 18, 2021)

Clair De Lune said:


> I did the same. I refuse to let fear win and quite often I win over fear. I totally understand why some women are overcome with fear though. I think perhaps that a weird kinda PTSD has caused a numbness in me where I'm like yeah? C'mon then.



If I'd had the car thing or the club thing happen to me, I think I'd not go out alone for several years without a taser.  My heart was in my mouth just reading that.   

edit:  sorry - after posting this I see you deleted the details on checking back - happy to delete if you want


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## LeytonCatLady (Mar 18, 2021)

Clair De Lune said:


> Yes indeed, the world is still not ours to enjoy with the ease a man does. I wish I knew how we change that honestly. Cos I like plenty of men and their company.


Honestly? Fake it till you make it. I was slightly nervous about being out alone after dark when I first left home as a teenager, and being a Brummie I'd been fed a lot of anti-London rhetoric, not least the supposed dangers (including being told I'd definitely get raped because of my big tits ). But I'd left home at 16 because I wanted my independence, and I thought what's the point of growing up if society's still going to infantilise me? And what was the point of feminism if women are still being told what to do? So I said "Fuck you" to all that, and basically followed the example of my older brothers who didn't think twice about going where they wanted, day or night. And I found that London by night was nothing to be scared of, in fact there was so many people around even in the early hours that it's probably safer than a quiet little village. And yes, I've met sexist people but the only two times I was sexually harassed were in broad daylight, which makes the Met's advice somewhat redundant.

So if you fancy doing anything, or going anywhere, just do it. You know how when 9/11 and 7/7 happened, the advice was "Don't let the terrorists win?" To me, it's the same with rapists and people who murder women. I won't stop travelling by tube because of religious fundie murderers, and I won't stop going about my perfectly lawful and peaceable activities because of misogynist murderers either. It's all terrorism and all of it needs to be stood up to.

Strength to you all.


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## SheilaNaGig (Mar 18, 2021)

Sometime in the 70s a friend of mine was abducted by a fairly well known musician, who bundled her into the car and kept her in his locked flat for three days before she escaped. She was 17.


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## friendofdorothy (Mar 18, 2021)

Clair De Lune said:


> I did the same. I refuse to let fear win and quite often I win over fear. I totally understand why some women are overcome with fear though. I think perhaps that a weird kinda PTSD has caused a numbness in me where I'm like yeah? C'mon then.


I remember reading that book 'Feel the fear and do it anyway'


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## 8ball (Mar 18, 2021)

friendofdorothy said:


> I remember reading that book 'Feel the fear and do it anyway'



I think a lot of that book addresses fears where nothing really bad is going to happen (eg. loads of people having a terrible fear of public speaking etc.).  This is a bit more... well, "balls out" is a horribly gendered term for it but hope you know what I mean.


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## Clair De Lune (Mar 18, 2021)

8ball said:


> If I'd had the car thing or the club thing happen to me, I think I'd not go out alone for several years without a taser.  My heart was in my mouth just reading that.
> 
> edit:  sorry - after posting this I see you deleted the details on checking back - happy to delete if you want


It's cool DW. All I can say is it was just a small dot in my story. I really can't bare to share every instance I've endured but it started early and it's not over yet. I shared what I did because I think without actual stories we can look at this from a somewhat removed or academic standpoint. But for a lot of us it's not and it is very painful to talk about in a world where we're put under more scrutiny as a victim than our male perpetrator. Remember Brock Turner's swim times for instance.


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## friendofdorothy (Mar 18, 2021)

8ball said:


> I think a lot of that book addresses fears where nothing really bad is going to happen (eg. loads of people having a terrible fear of public speaking etc.).  This is a bit more... well, "balls out" is a horribly gendered term for it but hope you know what I mean.



Can't recall what the book is about at all - it was 40 years ago. But the phrase feel the fear and do it anyway stayed with me.

edit to add ' first published in 1987 ' Perhaps the phrase stayed with me as it was already my attitude by the time it came out?


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## 8ball (Mar 18, 2021)

friendofdorothy said:


> Can't recall what the book is about at all - it was 40 years ago. But the phrase feel the fear and do it anyway stayed with me.



I had no idea the book was that old.  I always associate it with a friend of mine who died a couple of years ago.  We shared a flat and I found it shortly before he made some big and fairly scary changes in his life (some of which made me sad).  Tangent again, sorry.


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## Clair De Lune (Mar 19, 2021)

SheilaNaGig said:


> I think maybe this thing about being afraid to walk along the street is a misnomer, or a misunderstanding or a misrepresentation. (At least in part. I’m not minimising or dismissing the tangibleand identifiable fears that plenty of us experience when walking on the street)
> 
> I think maybe it’s PTSD.
> 
> ...


Sorry I missed this earlier. This is so eloquent yet raw. Thanks for sharing it, I hear you and I'm sat here impotently applauding it X


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## LeytonCatLady (Mar 19, 2021)

I'm so pissed off right now. A woman I follow on Twitter is a support worker and has recently had threats from a male client she's visited alone. These included saying he'd abduct and kill her, as well as complaining in general about how women can't be trusted. She's flagged it with her managers and all they can say is that she needs to have a thick skin because this guy is from a different generation and just doesn't like women. Am I right in thinking that they're legally obliged to log ALL threats, even ones seemingly made in jest? Surely that's their duty under safeguarding laws/lone workers? Every time I've worked in the public sector, this would get him marked as potentially dangerous and staff sent round in pairs! She says she's not so much upset about the threats themselves (although they were bad enough) because this bloke's a notorious attention seeker, but the fact she has to travel home in the dark later and if she's murdered on the way, people will say it's her fault. 

Also I was ranting about this to my housemate, and he went on about how we've just got into the habit of reporting every little thing and political correctness is destroying freedom of speech.  I reminded him free speech does NOT extend to hate speech or threats of violence and reporting something like this isn't the same as phoning the council to complain about a busker or accusing someone of benefit fraud because you saw them going to an interview dressed to the nines. He said "Why can't she stand up for herself?" I pointed out not everyone feels comfortable doing that, and in this case there's a power imbalance because she's limited in what she can say back to him without losing her job. I mean, on the one hand, I'm all for people standing up for their rights, but there's times we also have to deescalate. If it was me, yes, I'm a naturally argumentative fucker who would say "Fuck you, fuck your threats and fuck this job" and yes, I walked out of my last call centre job because I was sick of the abuse we'd get on the phone and management doing nothing to help us. But many people aren't in a position to do that and need to be protected. I'm stressed for this woman and I don't even know her.


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## weltweit (Mar 19, 2021)

LeytonCatLady I know someone who visited people in their homes as part of their work, their safety was discussed because of an event like the one you describe and it was decided the office would always know who she was visiting and when, and she would check in in between visits to notify that she was ok. The possibility of taking someone else with them wasn't really an option because it was a small office. I think she reserved the right not to visit people with whom she didn't feel safe.

There was a discussion of a panic button, I don't know how far that got though.


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## LeytonCatLady (Mar 19, 2021)

weltweit said:


> LeytonCatLady I know someone who visited people in their homes as part of their work, their safety was discussed because of an event like the one you describe and it was decided the office would always know who she was visiting and when, and she would check in in between visits to notify that she was ok. The possibility of taking someone else with them wasn't really an option because it was a small office. I think she reserved the right not to visit people with whom she didn't feel safe.
> 
> There was a discussion of a panic button, I don't know how far that got though.


Thank you, I'll pass that on. She probably knows her options anyway but in her shoes I'd feel better knowing someone was in my corner. Her boss sounds like an irresponsible twat in general even before this - it's the same one who pressured her to come in when she was quarantining because her mum had Covid. So unfortunately it doesn't surprise me they don't give a shit about staff safety.


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## weltweit (Mar 19, 2021)

LeytonCatLady said:


> Thank you, I'll pass that on. She probably knows her options anyway but in her shoes I'd feel better knowing someone was in my corner. Her boss sounds like an irresponsible twat in general even before this - it's the same one who pressured her to come in when she was quarantining because her mum had Covid. So unfortunately it doesn't surprise me they don't give a shit about staff safety.


As a solution the ideas aren't that great, they could warn that something had happened at call #2 that day but wouldn't be able to get help there until sometime after the event which would likely be too late. I don't really know what the best answer is.


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## Rebelda (Mar 19, 2021)

LeytonCatLady her employer should have a lone worker policy and the first step in that should be go in pairs from the minute she mentioned it. Care workers are treated like absolute shit by their agencies


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## Puddy_Tat (Mar 19, 2021)

LeytonCatLady said:


> Am I right in thinking that they're legally obliged to log ALL threats, even ones seemingly made in jest? Surely that's their duty under safeguarding laws/lone workers? Every time I've worked in the public sector, this would get him marked as potentially dangerous and staff sent round in pairs!



I would have thought so - in general under H&S rules, you're supposed to report 'near misses' and 'dangerous occurrences' even if on that occasion they don't lead to an injury / accident.

Some years ago, I worked in a housing benefits office, and people (generally) came to our place but went in to individual interview rooms - there were a small handful of customers who would never be seen alone - someone else would always go in on the pretence of training/ supervision.

I think with the small number of home visits we did (either because of customer's disability or where there was an investigation) then two people going round was pretty much standard.

www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/indg73.pdf (opens as PDF document) is HSE guidance on lone working

Suzy Lamplugh Trust may also be worth a look - this is specific to risks at work.

ultimately, there is a right to refuse to carry out work on safety grounds, but i'm fuzzy on the detail, and i wouldn't recommend anyone did this without seeking advice from a union rep or someone better informed than i am.

is this person in a union?  i'd suggest considering joining one, even if there isn't a recognised union in their workplace.  some unions are better than others at representing people in 'non union' workplaces, i know someone who was a care worker and she was in GMB.



LeytonCatLady said:


> Also I was ranting about this to my housemate, and he went on about how we've just got into the habit of reporting every little thing and political correctness is destroying freedom of speech.



fuckwit (him, not you)


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## oryx (Mar 19, 2021)

LeytonCatLady said:


> Every time I've worked in the public sector, this would get him marked as potentially dangerous and staff sent round in pairs!



Same here. The woman's manager is being a negligent arsehole.

I second Puddy_Tat 's advice of contacting the union/joining a union.


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## Clair De Lune (Mar 19, 2021)

Ugh that's horrible. Feels like they should send a guy when there's a misogynist involved...but I guess in that line of work, like mine there are probs way more women.
I once refused a client after a two sessions as he was very physically imposing, talked with glee about hurting a woman in great detail and I spent all my energy attempting to look unphased as I thought he'd enjoy seeing me scared. I insisted he be passed to a male colleague and he was charming as anything to him.


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## LeytonCatLady (Mar 19, 2021)

Clair De Lune said:


> Ugh that's horrible. Feels like they should send a guy when there's a misogynist involved...but I guess in that line of work, like mine there are probs way more women.
> I once refused a client after a two sessions as he was very physically imposing, talked with glee about hurting a woman in great detail and I spent all my energy attempting to look unphased as I thought he'd enjoy seeing me scared. I insisted he be passed to a male colleague and he was charming as anything to him.


Yeah, it sucks when you have to do that because you don't want to give the misogynist what he wants, on principle.

I've witnessed that in call centre work and also in the probation office where I used to work on reception. All the officers had their individual caseloads, and one of our women officers had all men who'd been convicted of things like DV, rape or violent robbery. It wasn't unusual for her clients to be rude about her behind her back. One guy (a repeat wife beater) was kicking off because she was five seconds late coming down and demanding "Where is she, the stupid fucking bitch?" I yelled back "I'm not having that language about a colleague! SIT down!" He did because he was so taken aback at a receptionist telling him off. But the other receptionist said "Well, she must be doing something to provoke their attitude." I pointed out that if he's a domestic abuser, he probably hasn't got the best attitude to women anyway, but I wanted to shake her for being so victim blamey.

*needed additional text as I hit post too soon.


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## dylanredefined (Mar 20, 2021)

Mumbles274 said:


> Something I have thought today. What if weapons were legal for women only. Maybe not guns, but incapacitating stun guns, somehow that could be only used by the owner. But imagine. If women had guns. How many men would be prowling for victims?
> 
> I know this is a kind of silly idea, but it made me think


  Unless you train with said weapons and instal the right mindset. Which a lot of women won't have time or inclination to do. It would fail.


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## Serge Forward (Mar 20, 2021)

Add stun gun training for girls to the National Curriculum?


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## LeytonCatLady (Mar 20, 2021)

Serge Forward said:


> Add stun gun training for girls to the National Curriculum?


I think self defence classes for all pupils should be added. There seems to be a mentality from authority right now of "Don't fight back or you're just as bad as the aggressor." That just trains people to be good obedient victims and is toxic as fuck.


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## Clair De Lune (Mar 20, 2021)

LeytonCatLady said:


> I think self defence classes for all pupils should be added. There seems to be a mentality from authority right now of "Don't fight back or you're just as bad as the aggressor." That just trains people to be good obedient victims and is toxic as fuck.


I agree. I have escaped a number of situations by fighting back and I don't know if I'd have had the courage had I not had an uncle who taught me self defence and took me to martial arts classes. 
I worry about my eldest going to uni tbh. I'd like him to learn some self defence techniques first. As being very slender and trans he is just as vulnerable to attacks as any cis woman.


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## Treacle Toes (Mar 20, 2021)

Was it on this thread that we discussed the widely accepted use of violence against women in plot lines of TV and film?
Comedy too. Yuck.


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## Serge Forward (Mar 20, 2021)

Lee Hurst is no surprise though, he's well known for being vile.


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## Treacle Toes (Mar 20, 2021)

I think you've missed the point of my post.


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## Shippou-Sensei (Mar 20, 2021)

Rutita1 said:


> Was it on this thread that we discussed the widely accepted use of violence against women in plot lines of TV and film?
> Comedy too. Yuck.
> 
> View attachment 259519


I'd happily smother him with a single use  plastic bag


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## Aladdin (Mar 20, 2021)

LeytonCatLady said:


> I think self defence classes for all pupils should be added. There seems to be a mentality from authority right now of "Don't fight back or you're just as bad as the aggressor." That just trains people to be good obedient victims and is toxic as fuck.





Clair De Lune said:


> I agree. I have escaped a number of situations by fighting back and I don't know if I'd have had the courage had I not had an uncle who taught me self defence and took me to martial arts classes.
> I worry about my eldest going to uni tbh. I'd like him to learn some self defence techniques first. As being very slender and trans he is just as vulnerable to attacks as any cis woman.



When I had a class of teenage girls a few years ago, I took them down to an emptt gymnasium and we practiced screaming and shouting.
Many of them had never raised their voices...ever. 
We did this every week until they were not in the least bit hesitant. 
I spent time teaching them that their voice is an important part of their defence. We practiced shouting certain phrases at the top of our lungs. 

One day the principal was showing an inspector round the school and they walked in to hear the class scream 
"GO AWAY" at the top of their lungs. 

Proud moment... 
I hope they never have to be in a situation where they need to scream and shout like that but it was an important lesson.


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## weltweit (Mar 21, 2021)

I wondered about self defence or some kind of martial arts training, of course women shouldn't have to do this which was why I didn't post it.

Perhaps some kind of tazer, or pepper spray, something to make women less vulnerable to a male aggressor.

In reality most men are also vulnerable. I am six foot two but have never done any fighting training so when I find myself in the wrong part of town perhaps late at night I don't feel safe either.


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## Puddy_Tat (Mar 21, 2021)

Sugar Kane said:


> One day the principal was showing an inspector round the school and they walked in to hear the class scream
> "GO AWAY" at the top of their lungs.



 but 

and  for doing it and  that you need to


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## Sue (Mar 21, 2021)

weltweit said:


> In reality most men are also vulnerable. I am six foot two but have never done any fighting training so when I find myself in the wrong part of town perhaps late at night I don't feel safe either.


Well with a curfew, you'd be at home rather than out on the dangerous streets so problem solved.


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## Sue (Mar 21, 2021)

(Also just to say that i find this stuff about tasers and all really annoying. I mean seriously. )


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## Aladdin (Mar 21, 2021)

Puddy_Tat said:


> but
> 
> and  for doing it and  that you need to




What was really quite funny was that the principal and inspector turned and left without any interaction with us...🙂

And yes...it's horrible that there is a need to do this kind of thing with teenage girls 🥺


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## purenarcotic (Mar 21, 2021)

I feel torn on the self-defence classes etc. I get why people do them etc, but in a situation where you think you might need it, you’re not necessarily going to go into ‘fight’ mode. Freeze, flop and friend are the most common responses and freeze in particular is the most likely outcome, and a lot of women use the fact they didn’t use their alarm, or didn’t fight back as another reason to blame themselves. I think the messaging around it needs to be immensely carefully done.


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## Clair De Lune (Mar 21, 2021)

purenarcotic said:


> I feel torn on the self-defence classes etc. I get why people do them etc, but in a situation where you think you might need it, you’re not necessarily going to go into ‘fight’ mode. Freeze, flop and friend are the most common responses and freeze in particular is the most likely outcome, and a lot of women use the fact they didn’t use their alarm, or didn’t fight back as another reason to blame themselves. I think the messaging around it needs to be immensely carefully done.


Yeah I get what you're saying. I can only speak for myself in that it helped me to know a few things I could do in order to escape scary situations and I've no doubt it's saved my life a few times. I was getting bullied on my estate by boys and coming home crying with bloody noses etc and my uncle said enough is enough and taught me how to fight back. After a few fights nobody fucked with me anymore and it gave me confidence. Regular practice of martial arts does help you overcome that freeze response *ime*. But absolutely agree that sometimes the friend response is the only thing we can do to keep ourselves 'safe'


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## PursuedByBears (Mar 21, 2021)

Sue said:


> (Also just to say that i find this stuff about tasers and all really annoying. I mean seriously. )


It's like when there's a thread about a shooting that gets derailed by the same male posters parping on about guns and ammo for three pages. Every single time.


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## purenarcotic (Mar 21, 2021)

Clair De Lune said:


> Yeah I get what you're saying. I can only speak for myself in that it helped me to know a few things I could do in order to escape scary situations and I've no doubt it's saved my life a few times. I was getting bullied on my estate by boys and coming home crying with bloody noses etc and my uncle said enough is enough and taught me how to fight back. After a few fights nobody fucked with me anymore and it gave me confidence. Regular practice of martial arts does help you overcome that freeze response *ime*. But absolutely agree that sometimes the friend response is the only thing we can do to keep ourselves 'safe'



It’s difficult isn’t it. I suppose I worry because one of the most common things women say to me is ‘I should have fought back’. So I wonder what happens when we already have a societal narrative that questions and blames women and we introduce yet more things for women to do and then pick on when she doesn’t do it because those biological responses take over (although I hear you on the ability to exorcise some control over them). But I also get the confidence thing and lots of people I know who’ve done self defence etc do say that, and that’s never a bad thing. Maybe if it was done for all kids rather than just girls?


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## Clair De Lune (Mar 21, 2021)

purenarcotic said:


> It’s difficult isn’t it. I suppose I worry because one of the most common things women say to me is ‘I should have fought back’. So I wonder what happens when we already have a societal narrative that questions and blames women and we introduce yet more things for women to do and then pick on when she doesn’t do it because those biological responses take over (although I hear you on the ability to exorcise some control over them). But I also get the confidence thing and lots of people I know who’ve done self defence etc do say that, and that’s never a bad thing. Maybe if it was done for all kids rather than just girls?


Oh hell yeah all kids should because on the reverse of it helping with the freeze response as you have muscle memory responses you don't even have to think about for self defence, a good martial arts trainer will also teach you that you don't use it to attack and it can be a wonderful way to help harness anger in boys.


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## Poot (Mar 21, 2021)

purenarcotic said:


> I feel torn on the self-defence classes etc. I get why people do them etc, but in a situation where you think you might need it, you’re not necessarily going to go into ‘fight’ mode. Freeze, flop and friend are the most common responses and freeze in particular is the most likely outcome, and a lot of women use the fact they didn’t use their alarm, or didn’t fight back as another reason to blame themselves. I think the messaging around it needs to be immensely carefully done.


I've never heard of freeze, flop or friend. That's really interesting. I instinctively go for friend. In fact I can imagine a situation where I would be cheerfully sweet-talking an attacker, trying to placate them, and determinedly NOT using the taser in my pocket if I had one, because it's fine, I've got this, he'll come round eventually. Similar has happened many, many times in the past (without the taser) and my God the shame I've felt when I've realised what just happened.


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## Red Cat (Mar 21, 2021)

purenarcotic said:


> It’s difficult isn’t it. I suppose I worry because one of the most common things women say to me is ‘I should have fought back’. So I wonder what happens when we already have a societal narrative that questions and blames women and we introduce yet more things for women to do and then pick on when she doesn’t do it because those biological responses take over (although I hear you on the ability to exorcise some control over them). But I also get the confidence thing and lots of people I know who’ve done self defence etc do say that, and that’s never a bad thing. Maybe if it was done for all kids rather than just girls?



That would be my worry too. You can't always scream when you're being attacked, you might open your mouth and it doesn't come out.


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## purenarcotic (Mar 21, 2021)

Poot said:


> I've never heard of freeze, flop or friend. That's really interesting. I instinctively go for friend. In fact I can imagine a situation where I would be cheerfully sweet-talking an attacker, trying to placate them, and determinedly NOT using the taser in my pocket if I had one, because it's fine, I've got this, he'll come round eventually. Similar has happened many, many times in the past (without the taser) and my God the shame I've felt when I've realised what just happened.



It’s very common but yes, we only learn about fight or flight and it’s very unhelpful and just encourages self-blame and encourages the victim blaming of others. You weren’t to blame and have no shame to carry by befriending. Your brain was just doing what it thought it would keep you alive. But that sense of shams is why I’m so wary of self defence as a response, I don’t think the extremely careful language required around it would necessarily be used.


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## bimble (Mar 21, 2021)

What’s ‘flop’ purenarcotic ?


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## purenarcotic (Mar 21, 2021)

bimble said:


> What’s ‘flop’ purenarcotic ?



Where you just go totally limp. A bit like animals playing dead iyswim. Some people will say they tried to run but their legs just kept giving way.


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## kabbes (Mar 21, 2021)

I think the biological basis for the “flop” (good word!) is the body preparing itself to get injured — slow down the heart rate, prepare endorphins etc.


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## Artaxerxes (May 20, 2021)

Sarah Everard: Met Police officers investigated over case file access
					

Officers who access records without a legitimate reason could be breaking the law, the Met says.



					www.bbc.co.uk
				




30+ met officers and staff accessing the files without a reason


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## NoXion (May 20, 2021)

Let's have a curfew for cops.


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## cyril_smear (May 24, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> I used to go out with a big crew of regulars and there were two standout creeps - neither of which I have anything to do with these days, but I'm ashamed to admit, their behaviour didn't make much of an impression on me besides wincing at their actions at the time - not good enough for sure. _*There was also a well-known DJ who has been accused of assault and harrassment recently*_. He'd played various friends' parties and I'd been told of inappropriate comments towards female friends at the time. People (including myself) just laughed it off at the time -  he was just seen as a ladies' man who said the odd outrageous thing. I'm glad it's come out and he may get his comeuppance, but fuck sake, we should have dealt with it collectively at the time.



Spill beans then. And if you don’t spill beans then you are allowing his behaviour to continue.

Also, isn’t that pretty much every local legend DJ? Maybe not the sexual assault part, but general shitcunterry e.g saying “here have a big line of coke” and it’s actually ket or secretly popping a double or triple dose of geeby in a drink and having a good laugh at the fallout.

I think it’s probably everybody sticking their tongue up their arse that makes them feel entitled, and that even if they do do “something” it’s ok because everybody fawns over them and wants to/can be seen in their company.

Came back to edit: the club rep from the inbetweeners movie: that kind of person.


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## Orang Utan (May 24, 2021)

It’s been covered extensively elsewhere, but it was Derrick May


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## Elpenor (May 24, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Sarah Everard: Met Police officers investigated over case file access
> 
> 
> Officers who access records without a legitimate reason could be breaking the law, the Met says.
> ...


What makes this stupid as well as everything else is that I’m sure they must be told in their training for this system that there’s an audit trail of which files they access, and anyone with half a brain (so ruling out most police) would imagine that they would be particularly checking who accesses the records of high profile cases.


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## cyril_smear (May 24, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> It’s been covered extensively elsewhere, but it was Derrick May


Not a young lad either😳 Even if it was 20 years ago he was knocking on for 40


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