# Brexit or Bremain - Urban votes



## DrRingDing (Feb 22, 2016)

Its a poll.


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## danny la rouge (Feb 22, 2016)

So I see.


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## Pickman's model (Feb 22, 2016)

tbh it's shit to stay and it's shit to go: but ids and bj in the go camp imo trumps dc in the stay.


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## Ranbay (Feb 22, 2016)

Out, just to shut every cunt up and see the back of Farage.


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## editor (Feb 22, 2016)

I think the poll may attract more votes if it wasn't worded so daftly.


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## butchersapron (Feb 22, 2016)

If only there was some thread discussing this somewhere.


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## butchersapron (Feb 22, 2016)

It'll be  a huge stay on here anyway.


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## andysays (Feb 22, 2016)

If we're having Brexit and now Bremain, shouldn't we also have Brabstain as an option?

Whatever the result, I hope we can leave all this brollocks brehind when the vote is brover


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## stethoscope (Feb 22, 2016)

Brefrain?


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## J Ed (Feb 22, 2016)

If I vote then I will vote to leave but I don't think I will, I don't want to endorse either side


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## Pickman's model (Feb 22, 2016)

J Ed said:


> If I vote then I will vote to leave but I don't think I will, I don't want to endorse either side


yeh they're both cunts: but with galloway, farage, ids, bj on the out side i think the cunts on the stay side are marginally less awful.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 22, 2016)

What would Mick Jones do?


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## Pickman's model (Feb 22, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> What would Mick Jones do?


if he voted to stay there would be trouble but voting to leave would lead to double trouble.


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## Ted Striker (Feb 22, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> What would Mick Jones do?



Watch the royalty cash roll in


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## 8den (Feb 22, 2016)

DrRingDing said:


> Its a poll.



But is it here legally?


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## bi0boy (Feb 22, 2016)

I'm abstaining until I learn more about how an exit will be implemented. I can imagine the Tories wining in 2020 because of it, which will give them nine years to set up an exited Britain for a generation in the best way that suits them.


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## Pickman's model (Feb 22, 2016)

bi0boy said:


> I'm abstaining until I learn more about how an exit will be implemented. I can imagine the Tories wining in 2020 because of it, which will give them nine years to set up an exited Britain for a generation in the best way that suits them.


by 2020 the tories will have split over the result. not to mention i would expect announcements on the mechanics of implementation on the day after a vote to leave.


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## kebabking (Feb 22, 2016)

i'm voting Bremain - i'm not keen on the EU as either an institution or as a direction, i'm also cognicant of the restrictions explicit within the EU on nationalisation etc..

however, those deep reservations and active dislikes are _dwarfed_ by my concerns over what would follow - i'm hugely concerned about the direction UK politics would go post an 'out' vote, and i'm hugely concerned about how vunerable both the EU and a not-in-the-EU UK (or what remained of it..) would be to outside blocs who previously had to deal with a that was far stronger, and far more united EU.

its possible i might change my mind, and i understand that it would be in the interests of both the rump-EU and the UK to come to some form of associate membership/partnership arrangement to mitigate against that threat, but i fear that with bent pride, hubris, and the self-defeating idiocy we've come to expect from politicians, all we'll get is squabbling while predators circle.


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## Santino (Feb 22, 2016)

bi0boy said:


> I'm abstaining until I learn more about how an exit will be implemented.


The people who could do this convincingly, i.e. senior civil servants and government departments, have no interest in doing so. Why would they do homework for the other side?


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## bi0boy (Feb 22, 2016)

Santino said:


> The people who could do this convincingly, i.e. senior civil servants and government departments, have no interest in doing so. Why would they do homework for the other side?



They did it for the Scotland referendum, as did the BoE etc.  It's the duty of these institutions to plan ahead.


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## Artaxerxes (Feb 22, 2016)

Ranbay said:


> Out, just to shut every cunt up and see the back of Farage.



Farage will never go.

Sadly.


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## marty21 (Feb 22, 2016)

Tories have split already on this  If we bremain  Dave should sack all the Brexiters pronto, that'll learn them. If we brexit, Cameron will resign, he has painted himself into the corner on this one, he won't be able to carry on. And Brexit will mean Bojo for King  and possibly a snap election?

I'm a Bremainer btw


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## DrRingDing (Feb 22, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> If only there was some thread discussing this somewhere.



There is no thread with a poll. This is unique contribution to the field.


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## hash tag (Feb 22, 2016)

I want to hear some of the arguements first


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## danny la rouge (Feb 22, 2016)

bi0boy said:


> They did it for the Scotland referendum, as did the BoE etc.  It's the duty of these institutions to plan ahead.


Yes, they did plan for a Yes vote in the indyref, but they used their announcements to campaign (while pretending not to be campaigning) for a No vote. They'll do the same here. All the state apparatus will be working pro Remain. Even in the way they handle news of their exit contingency planning.


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## danny la rouge (Feb 22, 2016)

DrRingDing said:


> There is no thread with a poll. This is unique contribution to the field.


Yes there is.


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## Flavour (Feb 22, 2016)

Out. 

1. Reduce the power of Britain in the world
2. Reduce the power of the EU, and maybe damage it beyond repair
3. Massive kick in the balls to every bank in the world basically
4. Massive internal haemorraghe of the Tory party


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## danny la rouge (Feb 22, 2016)

DrRingDing said:


> There is no thread with a poll. This is unique contribution to the field.


How will you vote in the EU Referendum: Post financial waterboarding edition

Which way would you vote in an EU referendum?

And the top one even has ongoing discussion.


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## BigMoaner (Feb 22, 2016)

leave it, if it goes tits up, go back in. simple.


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## hash tag (Feb 22, 2016)

!  if Turkey come in, I want out. I would hate to be in an alliance with such a screwed up nation.


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## littlebabyjesus (Feb 22, 2016)

hash tag said:


> !  if Turkey come in, I want out. I would hate to be in an alliance with such a screwed up nation.


Too late for that. The Uk's already in a military alliance with Turkey. It's called NATO.


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## Pickman's model (Feb 22, 2016)

hash tag said:


> !  if Turkey come in, I want out. I would hate to be in an alliance with such a screwed up nation.


you are in an alliance with turkey: nato


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## DrRingDing (Feb 22, 2016)

danny la rouge said:


> How will you vote in the EU Referendum: Post financial waterboarding edition
> 
> Which way would you vote in an EU referendum?
> 
> And the top one even has ongoing discussion.



Nearly 3 years old poll. The situation is arguably different and that poll is hypothetical.


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## danny la rouge (Feb 22, 2016)

DrRingDing said:


> Nearly 3 years old poll. The situation is arguably different and that poll is hypothetical.


13/7/2015. Not even a year old.


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## Ranbay (Feb 22, 2016)

Artaxerxes said:


> Farage will never go.
> 
> Sadly.



Yeah but at least he wont be screaming £55 million a day, and shut the draw bridge on my TV every fucking week.


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## Cid (Feb 22, 2016)

Ranbay said:


> Yeah but at least he wont be screaming £55 million a day, and shut the draw bridge on my TV every fucking week.


 
Pull up the drawbridge. It's the gate you shut.


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## purves grundy (Feb 22, 2016)

I'm all for staying in.


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## Pickman's model (Feb 22, 2016)

purves grundy said:


> I'm all for staying in.


yeh baby it's cold outside


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## mk12 (Feb 22, 2016)

J Ed said:


> If I vote then I will vote to leave but I don't think I will, I don't want to endorse either side


It shouldn't be about endorsing a side though. Do you want to stay in or leave the EU? It doesn't matter who is 'leading' the different campaigns.


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## Pickman's model (Feb 22, 2016)

mk12 said:


> It shouldn't be about endorsing a side though. Do you want to stay in or leave the EU? It doesn't matter who is 'leading' the different campaigns.


yeh but it's shit to stay in and it's shit to leave so for me it comes down to who wants what and unless you can produce wankers to match ids, galloway, farage, johnson on the stay side then i vote to stay


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## Ranbay (Feb 22, 2016)

Cid said:


> Pull up the drawbridge. It's the gate you shut.



yeah


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## danny la rouge (Feb 22, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh baby it's cold outside


My mother will start to worry.


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## Pickman's model (Feb 22, 2016)

danny la rouge said:


> My mother will start to worry.


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## hash tag (Feb 22, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Too late for that. The Uk's already in a military alliance with Turkey. It's called NATO.





Pickman's model said:


> you are in an alliance with turkey: nato



Indeed and sorry. I meant I dont want to do the cosying up thing in Europe with them.


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## Pickman's model (Feb 22, 2016)

hash tag said:


> Indeed and sorry. I meant I dont want to do the cosying up thing in Europe with them.


you never know, you might enjoy it


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## DotCommunist (Feb 22, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> Brefrain?


brollocks to the lot of them?


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## hash tag (Feb 22, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> you never know, you might enjoy it



Someones been talking


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 22, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> brollocks to the lot of them?




It's all brullshit.


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## butchersapron (Feb 22, 2016)

The factory is being re-oganised - we have no worker autonomy or any organisation. So we def should not look for what's best for us in this situation but what's best for the boss - because....well what?  And other bosses. To keep the bosses going.

An out  vote presents a problem for the bosses - local, nationally and europe wide. How on earth could a UK exit not? Defeat the larger plan leaving it broken leads to breaking the other. All other roads accept neo-liberal victory from the start. They just waffle on about how to deal with it.


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## skyscraper101 (Feb 22, 2016)

Keep Brelieving Bro


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## littlebabyjesus (Feb 22, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> The factory is being re-oganised - we have no worker autonomy or any organisation. So we def should not look for what's best for us in this situation but what's best for the boss - because....well what?  And other bosses. To keep the bosses going.


Have you even been reading other people's posts on these threads? There is a concern - that's been expressed by many people now - that a tory-dominated UK unconstrained by the EU could lead the UK towards a US-style no-worker-rights situation. There are plenty, like Gove, who openly advocate such positioning and have done for years. 

Why don't you address this, instead of making up  a load of cobblers that virtually nobody has said?


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## butchersapron (Feb 22, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Have you even been reading other people's posts on these threads? There is a concern - that's been expressed by many people now - that a tory-dominated UK unconstrained by the EU could lead the UK towards a US-style no-worker-rights situation. There are plenty, like Gove, who openly advocate such positioning and have done for years.
> 
> Why don't you address this, instead of making up  a load of cobblers that virtually nobody has said?


Yes of course i have - did you not read the progressive case for staying in the EU thread? The idea that the EU is constraining attacks on workers rights is a disgusting joke.  

We've all got rights now, but no money.


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## gosub (Feb 22, 2016)

danny la rouge said:


> How will you vote in the EU Referendum: Post financial waterboarding edition
> 
> Which way would you vote in an EU referendum?
> 
> And the top one even has ongoing discussion.



but that was taken six months ago and influenced by Greece being screwed,  not like now when far important factors like can i be on the same side as Galloway, Farage and Boris Johnson have come to the floor


Greece still seems screwed to me.


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## Pickman's model (Feb 22, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Have you even been reading other people's posts on these threads? There is a concern - that's been expressed by many people now - that a tory-dominated UK unconstrained by the EU could lead the UK towards a US-style no-worker-rights situation. There are plenty, like Gove, who openly advocate such positioning and have done for years.
> 
> Why don't you address this, instead of making up  a load of cobblers that virtually nobody has said?


yeh cos *obviously* the tories united on this.


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## DotCommunist (Feb 22, 2016)

gosub said:


> but that was taken six months ago and influenced by Greece being screwed,  not like now when far important factors like can i be on the same side as Galloway, Farage and Boris Johnson have come to the floor
> 
> 
> Greece still seems screwed to me.


I was suprised when post-waterboarding tspiras and co were re-elected. Its in the turnouts. From one of greece's highest turnouts to one of its lowest. However many x million people shown plainly how much their democracy is valued by the eu institutions


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## gosub (Feb 22, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> I was suprised when post-waterboarding tspiras and co were re-elected. Its in the turnouts. From one of greece's highest turnouts to one of its lowest. However many x million people shown plainly how much their democracy is valued by the eu institutions



It's not like the EU hasn't got form: Irish referendum.  French referendum, ignoring the ECI over TTIP....


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## laptop (Feb 22, 2016)

BigMoaner said:


> leave it, if it goes tits up, go back in. simple.



This is a sense of "simple" I have not encountered.

Would you care to clarify?


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## DotCommunist (Feb 22, 2016)

laptop said:


> This is a sense of "simple" I have not encountered.
> 
> Would you care to clarify?


no one would have de sheer gualle to refuse us re-entry  





I'll get my coat


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## stethoscope (Feb 22, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> no one would have de sheer gualle to refuse us re-entry



We'll have to Sarkozy-ing up to Europe again.


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## Mr.Bishie (Feb 22, 2016)

I voted to stay, but i'm still unsure, so will keep pace with such threads on here.


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## Orang Utan (Feb 22, 2016)

Corrupt neoliberalism or isolationist xenophobia?  Abstain!


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## killer b (Feb 22, 2016)

_Out _isn't (necessarily) isolationist xenophobia though. Whereas _in_ is definitely corrupt neoliberalism.


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## Pickman's model (Feb 22, 2016)

have changed my mind to exit on grounds it would fuck shit up


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## Pickman's model (Feb 22, 2016)

Orang Utan said:


> Corrupt neoliberalism or isolationist xenophobia?  Abstain!


you've been at the times crossword today too.


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## Mr.Bishie (Feb 22, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> have changed my mind to exit on grounds it would fuck shit up



Same here. I really would have liked the 'riot/burn parliament/lynch neolib' option in the poll.


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## Teenage Cthulhu (Feb 22, 2016)

Orang Utan said:


> Corrupt neoliberalism or isolationist xenophobia?  Abstain!



I might have to use that for a troll on facebook!


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## Pickman's model (Feb 22, 2016)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Same here. I really would have liked the 'riot/burn parliament/lynch neolib' option in the poll.


seems to me an out vote would fuck ukip, would fuck the tories and would fuck labour. wins all round i'd say


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## Orang Utan (Feb 22, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> you've been at the times crossword today too.


I have not


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## Pickman's model (Feb 22, 2016)

Orang Utan said:


> I have not


you should give it a go


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## Orang Utan (Feb 22, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> you should give it a go


I prefer the Guardian Quick cos I can actually finish it.


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## Mr.Bishie (Feb 22, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> seems to me an out vote would fuck ukip, would fuck the tories and would fuck labour. wins all round i'd say



Can you add to that a bit, as to how?


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## FiFi (Feb 22, 2016)

killer b said:


> _Out _isn't (necessarily) isolationist xenophobia though. Whereas _in_ is definitely corrupt neoliberalism.


Well, as nobody, expect rabid kippers frothing about immigration, can tell me what "out" would look like, I have to assume it will be isolationist xenophobia.


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## Pickman's model (Feb 22, 2016)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Can you add to that a bit, as to how?


ukip rationale gone tories going to spliton this anyway and think labour going to be damaged too


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## bi0boy (Feb 22, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> seems to me an out vote would fuck ukip, would fuck the tories and would fuck labour. wins all round i'd say



I bet it would help the LibDems though


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## youngian (Feb 22, 2016)

Artaxerxes said:


> Farage will never go.
> 
> Sadly.


If he loses the referendum UKIP will lose its will to live. The EU is Farage's raison d'etre. Every other populist announcement about immigration and gays are just crowd pleasers to draw in the swivel eyed loons.


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## stethoscope (Feb 22, 2016)

If we come out, UKIP are finished anyway, surely?


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## stethoscope (Feb 22, 2016)

For all Farage's posturing and blustering about how bad for immigration and costly to the UK the EU is, he's still been quite happy to take a £65k salary and expenses from being an MEP. It's not been a bad earner for the hypocritical cunt.


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## gosub (Feb 22, 2016)

£78,000 MEP salary plus generous expense and pension provision


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## A380 (Feb 22, 2016)

Lots of practical, political and emotional reasons to stay or leave. None required though once you look at this picture...


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## Mr.Bishie (Feb 22, 2016)

Has George had a bang to the fuckin' head?


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## stethoscope (Feb 22, 2016)

gosub said:


> £78,000 MEP salary plus generous expense and pension provision



Quite, so take it away. UKIP are barely a one trick pony. Coming out doesn't leave much left for them politically. Coming out might also cause deep divisions in the Tories which sees them elect a new leader who also wants out. A core of UKIPs right-wing votes goes back to the Tories as it becomes more eurosceptic again, and the rest implodes.

Admittedly, the one thing we haven't got is a strong left party with an argument for forming an out strategy which is an issue, but I still think an out will cause problems for the Tories and what's the point of UKIP if we're out?

UKIP love this - they can posture all that they want whilst being quite happy that whilst we stay in, they are part of the UK political landscape. So end it.

Then, we need to work on building ground-up movements to oppose the Tories, which is a hard task I know, but much more easily achieved without the neo-liberalism of the EU to fight against too.


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## gosub (Feb 22, 2016)

Think out means still in Single market , but not in EU.  And that means not addressing immigration, personally not a problem, but would be for a lot of outers.   Farage hangs around calling the still in single market position a betrayal and keeps a political base that he's built over immigration.


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## Voley (Feb 22, 2016)

I'm undecided. Seems fairly shit all round tbh. Selfishly, I sometimes wonder about working/living in The Netherlands though so that might swing it for me. The idea of retiring somewhere a bit warmer appeals more than many of the political arguments on both sides tbh.


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## killer b (Feb 22, 2016)

FiFi said:


> Well, as nobody, expect rabid kippers frothing about immigration, can tell me what "out" would look like, I have to assume it will be isolationist xenophobia.


What does 'in' look like?


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## DotCommunist (Feb 22, 2016)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Has George had a bang to the fuckin' head?


He can't be that punch drunk, he hasn't been conned into wearing a tie that looks like a rejected polo mint redesign from the 80s


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## spanglechick (Feb 22, 2016)

I'm, on balance, on the staying-in side.  I think the ECHR is a very important check/balance, i think curbs to some of the excesses of the way sovereignty would otherwise be enacted by our governments is probably quite welcome.


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## stethoscope (Feb 22, 2016)

The ECHR isn't a given because of membership of the EU though? Afaik, coming out of the EU won't change that (someone correct me though if not though).


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## gosub (Feb 22, 2016)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Has George had a bang to the fuckin' head?


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## mk12 (Feb 22, 2016)

The rationale for the SNP's existence seemed to go after the Scottish referendum. Doesn't seem to have done them any harm.

Edit: and UKIP's focus on immigration isn't just to attract 'swivel-eyed loons'. It's tapping in to the fairly prevalent views that immigration should be restricted and that all major parties are indifferent to the concerns of the ordinary British voter.


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## stethoscope (Feb 22, 2016)

mk12 said:


> The rationale for the SNP's existence seemed to go after the Scottish referendum. Doesn't seem to have done them any harm.



That doesn't really work if you're comparing SNP rationale for existence to UKIP.


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## mk12 (Feb 22, 2016)

How come?


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## stethoscope (Feb 22, 2016)

mk12 said:


> How come?



That seems to me to be saying that the SNP only exist because of the devolution battle - I don't think that's true of them at all.

UKIP might have a 'manifesto', but really, as a party they come ultimately come down to immigration and the EU battle (of which the former is mainly down to the latter). They've got fuck all otherwise really.


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## pocketscience (Feb 22, 2016)

The question at the back of my mind is whether this mob will get all vindictive again if there's a vote to leave?


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## danny la rouge (Feb 22, 2016)

mk12 said:


> How come?


Because the SNP is the party of government in Scotland and has been since 2007. Because there's no realistic opposition since Labour's collapse (which began to happen in 2011, btw, not after the referendum). And because the SNP has a platform that people in Scotland understand (as well as independence).


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## xenon (Feb 22, 2016)

killer b said:


> _Out _isn't (necessarily) isolationist xenophobia though. Whereas _in_ is definitely corrupt neoliberalism.



LOL. Whatifs rule the day.


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## gosub (Feb 22, 2016)

mk12 said:


> The rationale for the SNP's existence seemed to go after the Scottish referendum. Doesn't seem to have done them any harm.
> 
> Edit: and UKIP's focus on immigration isn't just to attract 'swivel-eyed loons'. It's tapping in to the fairly prevalent views that immigration should be restricted and that all major parties are indifferent to the concerns of the ordinary British voter.



It is lunacy, in terms of the economic damage full out would do.  Short term potential dumping as we'd be one of the few markets that imports didn't have to agreed standards be they global or EU (our signature isn't on the bottom of those agreements for the last 20 years,the EU's is) and none of our exports would have the required documentation, even reckon in short order data from offices on the other side of the channel would need to be anonomised before being sent here.


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## stethoscope (Feb 22, 2016)

I was trying to formulate something on that lines about SNP having a clear mandate, and as the party of government, @danny la rouge but you've put it more eloquently


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## killer b (Feb 22, 2016)

xenon said:


> LOL. Whatifs rule the day.


you could say that about every argument about politics ever.


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## danny la rouge (Feb 22, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> I was trying to formulate something on that lines about SNP having a clear mandate, and as the party of government, @danny la rouge but you've put it more eloquently


You're too kind.


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## xenon (Feb 22, 2016)

killer b said:


> you could say that about every argument about politics ever.




Not really. Probable outcomes are relevant.


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## redsquirrel (Feb 22, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> UKIP might have a 'manifesto', but really, as a party they come ultimately come down to immigration and the EU battle (of which the former is mainly down to the latter). They've got fuck all otherwise really.


But besides being an 'outsiders' party I don't think they need anything else. UKIP might explode, they've got the usual problems small parties always have - FPTP blocking their movement up, infighting between different leaders, etc. 

But whatever the result in June I think there will be a populist, anti-immigration right-wing party in the UK, the last decade and a half have shown that (unfortunately) there is space for a party along those lines.


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## stethoscope (Feb 22, 2016)

Oh fucks sake, I can't watch a fucking referendum programme presented by Nick cunting Robinson.

* turns over telly


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## xenon (Feb 22, 2016)

xenon said:


> Not really. Probable outcomes are relevant.




E2a abstane or stay in. Thats where im at.


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## killer b (Feb 22, 2016)

what do you think the probable outcome of that will  be?


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## DrRingDing (Feb 22, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> Oh fucks sake, I can't watch a fucking referendum programme presented by Nick cunting Robinson.
> 
> * turns over telly



He is a grubby scum. Especially in his dirty old mans mac


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## FiFi (Feb 22, 2016)

killer b said:


> What does 'in' look like?


Who the hell knows. Nobody can give me a clear picture of that either!


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## xenon (Feb 22, 2016)

killer b said:


> what do you think the probable outcome of that will  be?




Less immediately shit.


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## friedaweed (Feb 22, 2016)

If we leave will we get duty free back on the Dover to Calais ferry crossing? This may well swing it for me


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## youngian (Feb 22, 2016)

If Boris isn't your cup of tea


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## danny la rouge (Feb 22, 2016)

Oh god.


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## kebabking (Feb 22, 2016)

danny la rouge said:


> Oh god.



no, Jesus. 

or something...


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## BigMoaner (Feb 22, 2016)

Eurovision song contest


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## Cid (Feb 22, 2016)

BigMoaner said:


> Eurovision song contest



EU membership won't affect it.


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## gosub (Feb 22, 2016)

Cid said:


> EU membership won't affect it.


Unfortunately


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## Puddy_Tat (Feb 22, 2016)

can we have a 'bremeh' option?

i am finding it hard to get enthusiastic about either option (seems to be different varities of buckets of shit) and not sure i can face 4 months of this...


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## xenon (Feb 22, 2016)

Is a working class uprising, however thats sposed to happen, contigent on an eu exit. Staying in in the eu doesnt make it less likely either. Unicorns or pamflet slogans. Fuck it


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## MrSki (Feb 22, 2016)




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## toblerone3 (Feb 23, 2016)

I think I'm going to vote for the Sheeple. ...and I love reading Goethe and hate the thought that should we leave the EU we will never be able to read Goethe again.


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## J Ed (Feb 23, 2016)

toblerone3 said:


> I think I'm going to vote for the Sheeple. ...and I love reading Goethe and hate the thought that should we leave the EU we will never be able to read Goethe again.



what


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## NoXion (Feb 23, 2016)

Poll is wrong. It should be:

A) In.

B) Out.

C) In/Out.

D) Shake it all about.


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## toblerone3 (Feb 23, 2016)

There is a cultural side to the EU.  We could suffer in terms of Eurovision votes if we withdrew.


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## toblerone3 (Feb 23, 2016)

but fortunately membership of the European Television Union (ETU) is not dependent upon EU membership.


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## EastEnder (Feb 23, 2016)

I'm looking forward to all the pollsters predicting entirely the wrong outcome. Again.


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## Teaboy (Feb 23, 2016)

EastEnder said:


> I'm looking forward to all the pollsters predicting entirely the wrong outcome. Again.



Unlikely.  Referendums are much more simple then elections.  They were pretty accurate with Scotland and the Canadian one.


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## killer b (Feb 23, 2016)

I think the kind of forces that come into play with general elections aren't really present in referendums - afraid you're likely to be disappointed.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Feb 23, 2016)

toblerone3 said:


> There is a cultural side to the EU.  We could suffer in terms of Eurovision votes if we withdrew.



Nobody has has voted for us since about 2003.


----------



## killer b (Feb 23, 2016)

SpookyFrank said:


> Nobody has has voted for us since about 2003.


1997.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Feb 23, 2016)

I think it was when we invaded Iraq that our popularity as a Eurovision contestant nosedived.


----------



## bi0boy (Feb 23, 2016)

toblerone3 said:


> There is a cultural side to the EU.  We could suffer in terms of Eurovision votes if we withdrew.



Remember when fire extinguishers weren't all red? When a pint of milk didn't say 568ml on it in quite such a big font? This country could be great again.


----------



## 8den (Feb 23, 2016)

SpookyFrank said:


> I think it was when we invaded Iraq that our popularity as a Eurovision contestant nosedived.



Nah all your entries have been shit since Buck's Fizz.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Feb 23, 2016)

8den said:


> Nah all your entries have been shit since Buck's Fizz.



All the entries from all the countries have been shit since 'my lovely horse'.


----------



## EastEnder (Feb 23, 2016)

Teaboy said:


> Unlikely.  Referendums are much more simple then elections.  They were pretty accurate with Scotland and the Canadian one.


Maybe. Although as I understand it, the failings of the pollsters in the general election were essentially put down to them canvassing too many people who never actually bothered to vote. They asked lots of younger people (social media bias, etc), who tended to me more left wing, but when it came to voting it was the older, more right wing who actually went to the polling booths. Could the same thing happen with the referendum?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Feb 23, 2016)

bi0boy said:


> Remember when fire extinguishers weren't all red? When a pint of milk didn't say 568ml on it in quite such a big font? This country could be great again.



Are they all red now? They used to be colour-coded, so you didn't accidentally spray water on an electrical fire or a burning chip pan.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 23, 2016)

EastEnder said:


> Maybe. Although as I understand it, the failings of the pollsters in the general election were essentially put down to them canvassing too many people who never actually bothered to vote. They asked lots of younger people (social media bias, etc), who tended to me more left wing, but when it came to voting it was the older, more right wing who actually went to the polling booths. Could the same thing happen with the referendum?


If only they had some sort of real life example to warn them off doing such a silly thing.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Feb 23, 2016)

EastEnder said:


> Maybe. Although as I understand it, the failings of the pollsters in the general election were essentially put down to them canvassing too many people who never actually bothered to vote. They asked lots of younger people (social media bias, etc), who tended to me more left wing, but when it came to voting it was the older, more right wing who actually went to the polling booths. Could the same thing happen with the referendum?



It seems possible.

I don't think we should let old people vote. Half of them have lost their minds, and the other half will be dead before half the consequences of their shitty choice of politicians have even come to pass.


----------



## bi0boy (Feb 23, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> If only they had some sort of real life example to warn them off doing such a silly thing.



There's a danger they might follow that example too closely, as a sample size of one is never as useful as it seems.


----------



## Sprocket. (Feb 23, 2016)

SpookyFrank said:


> It seems possible.
> 
> I don't think we should let old people vote. Half of them have lost their minds, and the other half will be dead before half the consequences of their shitty choice of politicians have even come to pass.



What do we class as old, for example? Because the folks in their twenties and thirties I work with now are clueless regards anything beyond football and racism.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Feb 23, 2016)

Sprocket. said:


> What do we class as old, for example? Because the folks in their twenties and thirties I work with now are clueless regards anything beyond football and racism.



If your occupation is listed as 'bed blocker' then you're probably old.


----------



## CNT36 (Feb 23, 2016)

MrSki said:


>


Out of context lazy shit. The meme also.


----------



## 8den (Feb 23, 2016)

SpookyFrank said:


> All the entries from all the countries have been shit since 'my lovely horse'.



Bollocks there was that Scandinavian death metal band and that Austrian bearded lady


----------



## Sprocket. (Feb 23, 2016)

SpookyFrank said:


> If your occupation is listed as 'bed blocker' then you're probably old.



Phew, glad I registered on the electoral roll.


----------



## kebabking (Feb 23, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> If only they had some sort of real life example to warn them off doing such a silly thing.



if only the world was full of examples of people learning from their mistakes...

i'm not really sure there's much they can do about it anyway - the crux of polling is engagement, and if people won't engage in public politics (in the widest sense of the term) i'm at something of a loss as to how pollsters can gauge their opinion.

anyway, i'm betting on an 'In' win by 60-40, and i'll take bets on an 'out' win, or a 'in' with less than 58%. £1 max bets with the winnings going to the charity of the winners choice.


----------



## Teaboy (Feb 23, 2016)

EastEnder said:


> Maybe. Although as I understand it, the failings of the pollsters in the general election were essentially put down to them canvassing too many people who never actually bothered to vote. They asked lots of younger people (social media bias, etc), who tended to me more left wing, but when it came to voting it was the older, more right wing who actually went to the polling booths. Could the same thing happen with the referendum?



But generally people do vote in referendums, turnout is much higher.  Its a much more simple proposition for the electorate and history shows that people are usually more honest with their answers before the event then at a GE.

There is always the chance for the pollsters to fuck-up but history tells us that its unlikely.  Remember that City banker bloke who gambled vast sums of money on Scotland staying in the Union?  I head him being interviewed on radio and the whole premise of his strategy was that referendums generally follow a pattern and are predictable and the polls are largely accurate.  It certainly worked for him.


----------



## redsquirrel (Feb 23, 2016)

Teaboy said:


> But generally people do vote in referendums, turnout is much higher.


Based on what data? The turnout for some of the Swiss referenda is terribly low.



Teaboy said:


> Its a much more simple proposition for the electorate and history shows that people are usually more honest with their answers before the event then at a GE.


Again based on what evidence? During the Scottish referendum I remember at least one piece talking about how it was much more difficult for pollsters to model than elections.

EDIT: On turnout. The turnout of the 75 referendum was 65%, the turnout for  the 1970, Feb 1974, Oct 1974 and 1979 general elections was 72%, 79%, 73% and 76%. It's not until 2001 that the turnout in general elections fell below 65%.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 23, 2016)

i'm already sick of blather about accuracy of polls


----------



## Teaboy (Feb 23, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> Based on what data? The turnout for some of the Swiss referenda is terribly low.
> 
> Again based on what evidence? During the Scottish referendum I remember at least one piece talking about how it was much more difficult for pollsters to model than elections.



I'm using Scotland and Quebec where voter turn out was very high and were both called more or less correctly by the pollsters.  Of course what is being asked is a big issue for example the turn out for the AV referendum was low, but I think the nature of that issue is nothing compared to this.

I think we'll see turnout close to, if not higher then for Scotland.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 23, 2016)

Teaboy said:


> I'm using Scotland and Quebec where voter turn out was very high and were both called more or less correctly by the pollsters.  Of course what is being asked is a big issue for example the turn out for the AV referendum was low, but I think the nature of that issue is nothing compared to this.
> 
> I think we'll see turnout close to, if not higher then for Scotland.


88+%? No chance.


----------



## J Ed (Feb 23, 2016)

Teaboy said:


> I think we'll see turnout close to, if not higher then for Scotland.



I don't. I think a lot of people will be disgusted and disillusioned with both campaigns, rightly believing that both options lead to further erosion of their life chances and living standards and as a result they will not vote.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 23, 2016)

J Ed said:


> I don't. I think a lot of people will be disgusted and disillusioned with both campaigns, rightly believing that both options lead to further erosion of their life chances and living standards and as a result they will not vote.


as well as much of the debate in the media being one wing of the tory party having a pop at another wing of the tory party


----------



## Teaboy (Feb 23, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> 88+%? No chance.



Just under 85% according to wiki, maybe not.  But higher then a GE I suspect.  We'll see.


----------



## redsquirrel (Feb 23, 2016)

Teaboy said:


> I'm using Scotland and Quebec where voter turn out was very high and were both called more or less correctly by the pollsters.  Of course what is being asked is a big issue for example the turn out for the AV referendum was low, but I think the nature of that issue is nothing compared to this.
> 
> I think we'll see turnout close to, if not higher then for Scotland.


Right so you're cherry picking three examples out of hundreds. Not finding your argument particularly convincing TBH.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 23, 2016)

Teaboy said:


> Just under 85% according to wiki, maybe not.  But higher then a GE I suspect.  We'll see.


Yes, 85%  - Highly motivated voters, issue that people genuinely were interested in - not the same for this. People already want it to end.


----------



## rutabowa (Feb 23, 2016)

Need to read up on this a bit more. didn't know the UK had only been in the EU since 1973, kind of thought it was just after world war 2. The bit after after the war about integrating europe to prevent another world war sounded good, I'm not sure about what happened since.


----------



## Teaboy (Feb 23, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> Right so you're cherry picking three examples out of hundreds. Not finding your argument particularly convincing TBH.



Nor am I if truth be told, but its passing some time.  I guess its largely irrelevant though.


----------



## Sprocket. (Feb 23, 2016)

In the 1975 referendum, when asked to vote on whether the UK should remain in the EC (Common Market).
The result was 65% Yes on a 67% turnout, approximately 17.4 million Yes to 8.4 million No.
I was only 17 so didn't vote but I have never spoke to anyone who will admit they voted yes!
By coincidence the referendum was called after Mr Wilson had been to Europe to renegotiate the terms of the UK membership.

I do not think the 2016 referendum will be so one sided at this moment in time, it will be interesting to see what the divisions come up with in their quest to secure the alleged unsure third of voters.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Feb 23, 2016)

kebabking said:


> no, Jesus.


No, Alienz.


----------



## ffsear (Feb 23, 2016)

EastEnder said:


> Maybe. Although as I understand it, the failings of the pollsters in the general election were essentially put down to them canvassing too many people who never actually bothered to vote. They asked lots of younger people (social media bias, etc), who tended to me more left wing, but when it came to voting it was the older, more right wing who actually went to the polling booths. Could the same thing happen with the referendum?



Yes,   Not everyone wears their politics on their sleeve.  They don't talk about it,  they don't bang on about it on twitter. They don't answer the door if the persons holding a clipboard and wearing some kind of rosette.


----------



## rutabowa (Feb 23, 2016)

Do I have it right that first it was the EEC in 1957, then that got called the EC in 1967, UK joined in 1973, then in 1992 that became the EU?


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 23, 2016)

rutabowa said:


> Do I have it right that first it was the EEC in 1957, then that got called the EC in 1967, UK joined in 1973, then in 1992 that became the EU?


European Coal and Steel Community first from 51 (and the nazi state before that) and EU from 93. But the names don't really matter - the context in which they changed do though. I/e a 'union' formed at the height of post-war social democracy or post-war reconstruction is one very different from one looking to 'work' in modern neo-liberal conditions.


----------



## killer b (Feb 23, 2016)

ffsear said:


> Yes,   Not everyone wears their politics on their sleeve.  They don't talk about it,  they don't bang on about it on twitter. They don't answer the door if the persons holding a clipboard and wearing some kind of rosette.


Polling companies are also aware of all this, and their weighting formulas take it into account. The predictions they publish aren't just the raw percentage responses they get from their sample.


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 23, 2016)

rutabowa said:


> Do I have it right that first it was the EEC in 1957, then that got called the EC in 1967, UK joined in 1973, then in 1992 that became the EU?


BBC ON THIS DAY | 27 | 1967: De Gaulle says 'non' to Britain - again


----------



## rutabowa (Feb 23, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> European Coal and Steel Community first from 51 (and the nazi state before that) and EU from 93. But the names don't really matter - the context in which they changed do though. I/e a 'union' formed at the height of post-war social democracy or post-war reconstruction is one very different from one looking to 'work' in modern neo-liberal conditions.


Right... I'm just getting the basics though. So, what specific events could I look to as turning points where it "went bad"? Then I'll go look them up.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 23, 2016)

rutabowa said:


> Right... I'm just getting the basics though. So, what specific events could I look to as turning points where it "went bad"? Then I'll go look them up.


It's not my view that it 'went bad' - rather, it's followed essentially the same interests in different conditions: post-war reconstruction (building up core material industries) social democracy (establishing internationally competitive nature of core industries via productivity rises and small scale redistribution) post oil shock and 70s recession (directly cutting wages in core areas) post-79 (selling working class to globally mobile capital) post 2007-8 crash (big bad austerity monger). Same interest across all of these phases - stabilising states and capital and defusing social antagonisms into non threatening avenues.


----------



## rutabowa (Feb 23, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> It's not my view that it 'went bad' - rather, it's followed essentially the same interests in different conditions: post-war reconstruction (building up core material industries) social democracy (establishing internationally competitive nature of core industries via productivity rises and small scale redistribution) post oil shock and 70s recession (directly cutting wages in core areas) post-79 (selling working class to globally mobile capital) post 2007-8 crash (big bad austerity monger). Same interest across all of these phases - stabilising states and capital and defusing social antagonisms into non threatening avenues.


Maybe it followed the same interests throughout, but I guess "building up core material industries" could be seen as a pretty positive consequence, "productivity rises and small scale redistribution" too more arguably. Whereas the later consequences are pretty unarguably negative.... which I suppose is what I meant by "went bad". I think I get that you are saying it was essentially the same thing but operating in a different environment... so it was essentially always a negative force regardless of whether there were some positive consequences early on.


----------



## andysays (Feb 23, 2016)

rutabowa said:


> Maybe it followed the same interests throughout, but I guess "building up core material industries" could be seen as a pretty positive consequence, "productivity rises and small scale redistribution" too more arguably. Whereas the later consequences are pretty unarguably negative.... which I suppose is what I meant by "went bad". I think I get that you are saying it was essentially the same thing but operating in a different environment... so it was essentially always a negative force regardless of whether there were some positive consequences early on.



What it's always done (and will continue to do) is follow the interests of mainstream capital as they were generally seen at the time. 

All the examples BA gives were done for the benefit of capitalists, not workers. Any positive consequences for workers were incidental, and can be (in fact already are being) withdrawn if the current requirements of capitalism dictate.


----------



## rutabowa (Feb 23, 2016)

andysays said:


> All the examples BA gives were done for the benefit of capitalists, not workers. Any positive consequences for workers were incidental, and can be (in fact already are being) withdrawn if the current requirements of capitalism dictate.


Yes I get that. I guess it is important, for me anyway, to also understand that there were positive consequences for everyone as well though, whether they were intended or not. Otherwise it would be easy for everyone to decide wouldn't it.


----------



## killer b (Feb 23, 2016)

The benefits to workers weren't _incidental_ - but they were something that happened because it was deemed necessary for a functioning capitalist society at that time, not out of any love of the worker.


----------



## CNT36 (Feb 23, 2016)

It'll all come down to what happens in St Etienne on the 20th.


----------



## Ranbay (Feb 23, 2016)




----------



## gosub (Feb 23, 2016)

Ranbay said:


>





only managed 13secs.  But a definite contender for eurovision....move over dustin the turkey


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Feb 23, 2016)

Ranbay said:


>



Well, that's me convinced.


----------



## Obediah Marsh (Feb 23, 2016)

I'll probably abstain. Little will change if Britain leaves. Britain won't be kicked out of the Single Market. The EU won't become more democratic, or Britain more socialist. Immigration patterns won't change much. That said, I think the vote will be to stay.


----------



## Tropi (Feb 23, 2016)

If Brexit happens we can say a huge goodbye to workers rights and all, for example. Like a little US.


----------



## rutabowa (Feb 23, 2016)

Tropi said:


> If Brexit happens we can say a huge goodbye to workers rights and all, for example. Like a little US.


Whys that?


----------



## brogdale (Feb 23, 2016)

Conclusive proof.


----------



## DrRingDing (Apr 18, 2016)

OFFICIAL THREAD


----------



## brogdale (Apr 18, 2016)

DrRingDing said:


> OFFICIAL THREAD


Where's this thread's booklet of published forecasts, then?


----------



## krink (Apr 18, 2016)

Voting out but also voting spunking cock (which is missing from this terrible poll)


----------



## cantsin (Apr 18, 2016)

J Ed said:


> If I vote then I will vote to leave but I don't think I will, I don't want to endorse either side



Same


----------



## Cid (Apr 19, 2016)

krink said:


> Voting out but also voting spunking cock (which is missing from this terrible poll)



You can't do both.


----------



## brogdale (Apr 19, 2016)

Cid said:


> You can't do both.


You can. No guarantee which mark they'll accept, mind.


----------



## gosub (Apr 19, 2016)

Cid said:


> You can't do both.


Welsh voter draws penis on ballot paper - returning officer counts it as a vote


----------



## DrRingDing (Apr 19, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Where's this thread's booklet of published forecasts, then?



It'll be a vote to Bremain and the weather will be shit.


----------



## Cid (Apr 19, 2016)

gosub said:


> Welsh voter draws penis on ballot paper - returning officer counts it as a vote



You can clearly physically do both, but you have no idea what the result would be. Certainly it won't count as a valid vote _and_ a spoiled ballot.


----------



## Cid (Apr 19, 2016)

Quite apart from totally undermining your statement of indifference to the result.


----------



## dessiato (Apr 19, 2016)

The more I read from both sides the more I think the UK might as well stay in. I'm also concerned that the exit campaign seems to be very much focused on an old-fashioned idea of the UK's role in the world. It is this, more than anything, that worries me about the out campaign. They don't seem to realise the the UK is not _the_ major player now, at least not in the way that the Exiters seem to think it is.


----------



## J Ed (Apr 19, 2016)

Cid said:


> Quite apart from totally undermining your statement of indifference to the result.



You can want neither side to win without being indifferent to the result


----------



## Cid (Apr 19, 2016)

J Ed said:


> You can want neither side to win without being indifferent to the result



Indifference is the wrong word, questioning of the validity of the poll/legitimacy of those involved. But you're not doing that if you actually go on to vote in it... It might give you some sense of personal satisfaction but in the end your vote is either going to endorse the system you're voting in or count as a spoiled ballot.


----------



## gosub (Apr 19, 2016)

dessiato said:


> The more I read from both sides the more I think the UK might as well stay in. I'm also concerned that the exit campaign seems to be very much focused on an old-fashioned idea of the UK's role in the world. It is this, more than anything, that worries me about the out campaign. They don't seem to realise the the UK is not _the_ major player now, at least not in the way that the Exiters seem to think it is.


We are not an insignificant player,but  Premiership mid table at best.  Direction of travel of the EU though : Hand over power of attorney and live in a granny annex in what was your own garden.


----------



## Greebozz (Apr 19, 2016)

"What did you do in the great referendum daddy?"


----------



## Ranbay (Apr 19, 2016)

I'm more and more tempted to vote out just to prove a point and watch people kick off when they can only 200 fags back from holidays etc


----------



## hot air baboon (Apr 19, 2016)

dessiato said:


> I'm also concerned that the exit campaign seems to be very much focused on an old-fashioned idea of the UK's role in the world. It is this, more than anything, that worries me about the out campaign. They don't seem to realise the the UK is not _the_ major player now, at least not in the way that the Exiters seem to think it is.



...I'd have to disagree....for starters on the day after Brexit we become the EU largest export market for goods - larger than the US..I don't believe this mythical trade war is going to happen...





.....the elephants in the room are the disaster of the eurozone project, & the instability resulting from cack-handed "EU" foreign policy towards Ukraine & Turkey....all clearly demonstrate the inevitbale failings of previous efforts at geo-political giganticism :  imperial over-strecth,  hubris, megalomania, incompetence & inability to respond to opinion from below....you get the same failings at national level but with the EU we are just magnifying all these failings onto a much larger scale & making solving them even more intractable...

the idea we are supposed to overlook all this + other stuff like the whole TTIP "thing" because we are doing alright Jaques is odd coming from those who try to paint Brexit as being a parochial and narrow outlook.

its not as if large scale multi-national agglomerations ruled by some form of central authority are anything remotely new...they have been coming together & - with seemingly equal inevitability falling apart for a few millenia of human history ....its nation-states, particulalrly liberal-democacies which are a far more "modern" phenomenon ...


----------



## SaskiaJayne (Apr 19, 2016)

I've probably changed my vote since the thread started. I'm tending to out atm.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 19, 2016)

hot air baboon said:


> its not as if large scale multi-national agglomerations ruled by some form of central authority are anything remotely new...they have been coming together & - with seemingly equal inevitability falling apart for a few millenia of human history ....its nation-states, particulalrly liberal-democacies which are a far more "modern" phenomenon ...


yes but how does this apply to the eu?


----------



## Ranbay (Apr 19, 2016)

Will coming out effect how many fags and bottles of vodka we can bring back into the Uk after a weekend in Benidorm? this is now my biggest concern.


----------



## gosub (Apr 19, 2016)

Ranbay said:


> Will coming out effect how many fags and bottles of vodka we can bring back into the Uk after a weekend in Benidorm? this is now my biggest concern.



1litre and 200 fags duty free as opposed to 10litres and 800 fags with duty.


----------



## Greebozz (Apr 19, 2016)

Ranbay said:


> I'm more and more tempted to vote out just to prove a point and watch people kick off when they can only 200 fags back from holidays etc





gosub said:


> 1litre and 200 fags duty free as opposed to 10litres and 800 fags with duty.


Some might say, if true, a great reason to leave the EU, to preserve peoples health.


----------



## Ranbay (Apr 19, 2016)

gosub said:


> 1litre and 200 fags duty free as opposed to 10litres and 800 fags with duty.



See this would be my main thing to highlight if I was leading the in campaign.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Apr 19, 2016)

SaskiaJayne said:


> I've probably changed my vote since the thread started. I'm tending to out atm.



I wouldn't worry about it...I only voted so I could nose at the poll results.


----------



## Greebozz (Apr 19, 2016)

I don't think anyone on this forum is going to be better off because of continual immigration to the UK from the other EU countries.  That is unless you are a property owner or are in the buy to let business.  But the vast majority who are not so well off, are going to find things harder and harder.

While Britain standard of living, health and education provision is better than that of the poorest performing country in the EU's, people will want to continue coming here in vast numbers.

There is deliberate red tape to stop properties being built and developed, there is no huge provision for extra schools and extra hospitals.  Possibly leading to more crowding, people living in poor quality rented housing, children facing larger class sizes and longer journeys to school, extra competition for every job.  The NHS stretched even further.

I wish people would be more fairly self-interested, expanding populations are going to be a problem the world over due to limited resources.  There is already continually more people in Britain due to natural reproduction.  People can't afford to get on the property ladder now.


----------



## hot air baboon (Apr 19, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> yes but how does this apply to the eu?



...by taking power away from national parliaments to issue currency or set their own interest rates for example....

....anyway I realise I've just been channelling Michaal Gove...I need to go & lie down in a darkend room...


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 19, 2016)

hot air baboon said:


> ...by taking power away from national parliaments to issue currency or set their own interest rates for example....
> 
> ....anyway I realise I've just been channelling Michaal Gove...I need to go & lie down in a darkend room...
> 
> View attachment 85977


these would be the national parliaments which in fact ceded that power quite voluntarily and so this does not imo count as 'ruling'.


----------



## laptop (Apr 19, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> these would be the national parliaments which in fact ceded that power quite voluntarily and so this does not imo count as 'ruling'.


Aye. Gove's worst nightmare is FEDERATION.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 19, 2016)

laptop said:


> Aye. Gove's worst nightmare is FEDERATION.


gove's worst nightmare is being pegged by angela merkel


----------



## laptop (Apr 19, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> gove's worst nightmare is being pegged by angela merkel


And Angela's is...


----------



## flypanam (Apr 19, 2016)

In my view both sides in the referendum are horrible, but despite that the EU is worse. Given the experience of Ireland and the way we were bullied by our own establishment and the EU after the rejection of both Nice and Lisbon treaties (much was promised but all we got was debt) I'll be voting to leave. As an Irish citizen from a border county living in London it could have repercussions especially for my non-European wife and I. But that's not so devastating. Though I find it laughable that they impose border controls between along the partition line, no chance too many laneways and back roads etc.


----------



## Celyn (Apr 19, 2016)

Oh, now the U.K.should leave because England is an island.  Thus spake Ian Botham.  (c.0.55)
EU referendum: Ian Botham on wanting backing UK Brexit - BBC News

Yeah, that's me convinced.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 19, 2016)

Celyn said:


> Oh, now the U.K.should leave because England is an island.  Thus spake Ian Botham.  (c.0.55)
> EU referendum: Ian Botham on wanting backing UK Brexit - BBC News
> 
> Yeah, that's me convinced.


in that case the irish and the cypriots, among others, may wish to reconsider their membership of the eu


----------



## YouSir (Apr 19, 2016)

Greebozz said:


> I don't think anyone on this forum is going to be better off because of continual immigration to the UK from the other EU countries.  That is unless you are a property owner or are in the buy to let business.  But the vast majority who are not so well off, are going to find things harder and harder.
> 
> While Britain standard of living, health and education provision is better than that of the poorest performing country in the EU's, people will want to continue coming here in vast numbers.
> 
> ...



Housing issues, NHS cuts, school overcrowding, competition for decent pay, low wages - all of these things will continue with or without immigration from the EU. They're products of certain interests having free reign to fuck people. They'll be no less venal or mercenary if there are fewer Spaniards around.


----------



## Celyn (Apr 19, 2016)

This bit of geological moving would make Scotland and Wales islands too.


----------



## laptop (Apr 19, 2016)

Celyn said:


> This bit of geological moving would make Scotland and Wales islands too.


Good thing too. Glum people, coming here, stealing our leek porridge


----------



## DrRingDing (Apr 19, 2016)

Any opinions on Osborne's 3 million figure out today?


----------



## Sprocket. (Apr 19, 2016)

I voted accidentally whilst scrolling down the screen on my phone, I am bereft, I feel like Owen Jones.


----------



## Celyn (Apr 19, 2016)

laptop said:


> Good thing too. Glum people, coming here, stealing our leek porridge


I had never heard of leek porridge, but I could nip down there and steal some before Botham pulls up the drawbridge.    Then again, I do have some leeks waiting for me to do something with them.


----------



## Greebozz (Apr 19, 2016)

YouSir said:


> Housing issues, NHS cuts, school overcrowding, competition for decent pay, low wages - all of these things will continue with or without immigration from the EU. They're products of certain interests having free reign to fuck people. They'll be no less venal or mercenary if there are fewer Spaniards around.


I agree with you about that.  I think the world needs to be a fairer place, that almost needs to be a revolution.  It can't go on just a tiny few superrich having all the money and resources.  In my view the anyway that's going to happen is more pain and misery and poverty until something happens and things change.  I'm not looking forward to that journey, I suppose I'm happy with the status quo, at least as it was, in which the masses get just enough crumbs from the table of the rich, so life isn't too bad.  I think vast numbers of population however it is brought about is can make things worse before it gets better.

Also it's so dependent on one's point of view, the ethics are not clear-cut.  There are a lot of poorer countries in Europe, is it right for Britain to empty them of their young bright people?  Same with taking the best nurses and doctors from around the world, particularly poorer countries.  I suppose it allows distribution of wealth back to those countries or to the particular families of those that have come.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Apr 19, 2016)

Sprocket. said:


> I voted accidentally whilst scrolling down the screen on my phone, I am bereft, I feel like Owen Jones.



It couldn't get any fucking worse. My thoughts are with you comrade Sprocket.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 19, 2016)

Sprocket. said:


> I voted accidentally whilst scrolling down the screen on my phone, I am bereft, I feel like Owen Jones.


More like corporal jones


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Apr 19, 2016)




----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 19, 2016)

Greebozz said:


> I don't think anyone on this forum is going to be better off because of continual immigration to the UK from the other EU countries.  That is unless you are a property owner or are in the buy to let business.  But the vast majority who are not so well off, are going to find things harder and harder.
> 
> While Britain standard of living, health and education provision is better than that of the poorest performing country in the EU's, people will want to continue coming here in vast numbers.
> 
> There is deliberate red tape to stop properties being built and developed...



No there isn't, in fact for the last 15 years controls have been progressively relaxed. 




> ...there is no huge provision for extra schools and extra hospitals.  Possibly leading to more crowding, people living in poor quality rented housing, children facing larger class sizes and longer journeys to school, extra competition for every job.  The NHS stretched even further.



The single biggest reason for lack of schools capacity is the closure and selling off of school properties in the 1990s and 2000s, rather than merely mothballing them. Blame the Department for Education for THAT fuck-up, and the fact that land is mostly too expensive for new developments (our last new secondary school is built on top of an old waste-disposal yard).




> I wish people would be more fairly self-interested, expanding populations are going to be a problem the world over due to limited resources.  There is already continually more people in Britain due to natural reproduction.  People can't afford to get on the property ladder now.



In terms of natural reproduction, if you look at figures, you'll see that citizen birth rates are only climbing very slightly, with the larger issue being longer-surviving oldies - the increase in life expectancy.

You always come out with the same old anti-immigrant bollocks.


----------



## weltweit (Apr 19, 2016)

On immigration: There are people on here who are working / have worked / are hoping to retire on the EU continent, migration goes both ways.


----------



## Greebozz (Apr 20, 2016)

weltweit said:


> On immigration: There are people on here who are working / have worked / are hoping to retire on the EU continent, migration goes both ways.


 some might argue is it right that we inflict our old people on Europe.  I thought old people were supposed to help bringing up grandkids not swanning off to Spain to play golf all day.


----------



## Greebozz (Apr 20, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> No there isn't, in fact for the last 15 years controls have been progressively relaxed.
> 
> 
> The single biggest reason for lack of schools capacity is the closure and selling off of school properties in the 1990s and 2000s, rather than merely mothballing them. Blame the Department for Education for THAT fuck-up, and the fact that land is mostly too expensive for new developments (our last new secondary school is built on top of an old waste-disposal yard).
> ...



I take on board what you're saying and I sort of agree but the water is very muddy.  And are there other solutions to the problems of an ageing population.

You said, I always come out with the same anti-immigration bollocks.  To me that's an insult, I don't like being insulted.  I don't know how to react to it.  If I insult you back, am I not wrestling in mud.

I wish I could take you to court and challenge your accusation publicly and have it decided in a court of law whether I'm coming out with anti-immigration bollocks.

At least I would make a formal complaint about your accusation.  Because I refute it.

The only option I got is to not spend much time on this forum.  Is that really what you call a great victory for you?

I am used to giving people respect and getting in return, it makes the world a nice place.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 20, 2016)

Greebozz said:


> I agree with you about that.  I think the world needs to be a fairer place, that almost needs to be a revolution.  It can't go on just a tiny few superrich having all the money and resources.  In my view the anyway that's going to happen is more pain and misery and poverty until something happens and things change.  I'm not looking forward to that journey, I suppose I'm happy with the status quo, at least as it was, in which the masses get just enough crumbs from the table of the rich, so life isn't too bad.  I think vast numbers of population however it is brought about is can make things worse before it gets better.
> 
> Also it's so dependent on one's point of view, the ethics are not clear-cut.  There are a lot of poorer countries in Europe, is it right for Britain to empty them of their young bright people?  Same with taking the best nurses and doctors from around the world, particularly poorer countries.  I suppose it allows distribution of wealth back to those countries or to the particular families of those that have come.


I must say that what i find most distasteful about _arguments _like this is the pretence that they're primarily concerned with potential damage done to countries poorer than here. We al know that it's not true that this is not what's driving these sort of anti-immigration arguments from these types - hence their absence from other struggles to the same claimed end, or even the intellectual acceptance of the ideas behind those campaigns. In fact we more often see outright rejection of and attacks on those ideas and campaigns instead.


----------



## andysays (Apr 20, 2016)

Greebozz said:


> I take on board what you're saying and I sort of agree but the water is very muddy.  And are there other solutions to the problems of an ageing population.
> 
> You said, I always come out with the same anti-immigration bollocks.  To me that's an insult, I don't like being insulted.  I don't know how to react to it.  If I insult you back, am I not wrestling in mud.
> 
> ...



If you don't like being accused of always coming out with the same anti-immigration bollocks, then the solution is simple and in your own hands - stop always coming out with the same anti-immigration bollocks.

And if you really want to refute it, try addressing the arguments people are responding to you with, rather than just whining about how insulted you feel.

So far I've seen nothing from you, on this thread or any others, which is deserving of respect...


----------



## Greebozz (Apr 20, 2016)

andysays said:


> If you don't like being accused of always coming out with the same anti-immigration bollocks, then the solution is simple and in your own hands - stop always coming out with the same anti-immigration bollocks.
> 
> And if you really want to refute it, try addressing the arguments people are responding to you with, rather than just whining about how insulted you feel.
> 
> So far I've seen nothing from you, on this thread or any others, which is deserving of respect...


I would hope that expressing opinions which are true to oneself would be enough to be treated as legitimate.  Personally I think whining about how insulted I feel is better than me insulting anyone else back.

The real issue for me, is that I don't feel that the European Union has a legitimate mandate for what the policies that have been employed.  Good people fair and true wish to remain in Europe and welcome EU immigration, other good people wish to leave the European Union.  This vote is going to create the legitimacy one way or the other.  Whatever the outcome I'll be happy and accept the result.

But what I want to know is there some other ideology which is greater than democracy which says unlimited immigration is a good thing?  If so can you point me to wear that manifesto or philosophy is?  I might be reading things wrong but to many pro-immigration seems to be a core ideology rather than simply a democratic choice for the country involved.  It seems to be people are denounced if they wish to leave the European Union.  They are mad, they are stupid, they are trolls, they've been brainwashed by the Daily Mail, the right wing Nazis, they support Hitler, they are fascists.  What is going on with all this stuff.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 20, 2016)

Greebozz said:


> I take on board what you're saying and I sort of agree but the water is very muddy.  And are there other solutions to the problems of an ageing population.
> 
> You said, I always come out with the same anti-immigration bollocks.  To me that's an insult, I don't like being insulted.  I don't know how to react to it.  If I insult you back, am I not wrestling in mud.
> 
> ...



You have a history of coming out with unsubstantiated anti-immigrant bollocks. I have a history of challenging you about it.
All the pontification in the world by you, about courts of law and respect don't change that essential truth.

You say that you're used to giving and getting respect - I'd contend that you have no self-respect, if you actually believe any of what you wrote in the post I originally replied to.


----------



## SaskiaJayne (Apr 20, 2016)

Could it be argued that the EU is a neolib construct & a vote out will bring about a socialist government more quickly?


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## gawkrodger (Apr 20, 2016)

Greebozz said:


> I would hope that expressing opinions which are true to oneself would be enough to be treated as legitimate.



No, no, no, no, no. The sooner people move away from this rubbish the better. 

'But I believe in unicorns. I'm being true to myself'

Opinions are legitimate when you back them up with evidence, not half-arsed claims and personal bigotries.


----------



## kebabking (Apr 20, 2016)

SaskiaJayne said:


> Could it be argued that the EU is a neolib construct & a vote out will bring about a socialist government more quickly?




yes, if you believe in Unicorns and Fairydust and don't pay attention to 'don't lick me!' signs on lumps of Aluminium.

the EU is a neo-liberal construct, however to believe that the electorate, having just voted in support of an essentially hyper-capitalist, nationalist and xenophobic polictical campaign to leave the EU will then turn around and support an anti-capitalist political campaign smacks of a degree of, err... _naivety _in terms of political thinking_._

those who arue that leaving the EU would provide the space - and impetus - for the growth of a anti-capitalist movement also utterly fail to mention quite how much damage to what remains of the post-war concesus the inevitable hyper-capitalist governments elected on the back of EU withdrawl would do before their Glorious Peoples RevolutionTM  got into full swing. is the NHS or state education having been abolished for 20 years a price worth paying for the _chance_ of this revolution? 5 years? 15 years? 50 years? and what is the chance of this revolution - a certainty, or a probability, a possibility, or just exactly the same not-far-off-fuck-all that its always been?

so, to be clear, those pushing for 'out' because they want an anti-capitalist government are offering a reduced economy - less jobs - somewhere between several and many hyper-Capitalist governments in the 2020-2030-2040 period that will make Camerons Britain look like fucking Cuba, all for a chance - that they refuse to speculate on the likelyhood of - that at some point there will be a electorate wide backlash that brings an anti-capitalist government to power.

fucking great - when's the next series of The Apprentice on, i want to see these people flogging mobile phones...


----------



## Sea Star (Apr 20, 2016)

I wouldn't be against coming out if it was handled properly but all the indications are that if this government are told to take us out they're going to do it to cause as much harm as they possibly can by doing it in two years. So I vote to stay in.


----------



## andysays (Apr 20, 2016)

kebabking said:


> yes, if you believe in Unicorns and Fairydust and don't pay attention to 'don't lick me!' signs on lumps of Aluminium.
> 
> the EU is a neo-liberal construct, however to believe that the electorate, having just voted in support of an essentially hyper-capitalist, nationalist and xenophobic polictical campaign to leave the EU will then turn around and support an anti-capitalist political campaign smacks of a degree of, err... _naivety _in terms of political thinking_._
> 
> ...



Perhaps you haven't been paying attention for the last 30+ years, but the post-war consensus is already well and truely gone, and the NHS and state education (to name but two) are already being abolished in favour of private finance having control of and making profit from services which used to be thought of as deserving of public ownership and control. All this has happened despite our membership of the EU, indeed it's been and continues to be the deliberate and relentless direction of travel across the EU as a whole.

Your suggestion that remaining in the EU can or will be in the least bit relevant to protecting ordinary people from the hyper-capitalism we're already experiencing suggests that it's you who's living in a fantasy world of unicorns and fairy dust.

No one has said that Britain leaving will automatically bring what you refer to disparagingly as the "Glorious Peoples RevolutionTM", rather that it will open up opportunities for labour to exert some measure of power over a British state in disary. Those opportunities will still need to be taken up and fought for, but while we remain locked into the explicitly neo-liberal anti-social democratic prison of the EU, we don't even have those.


----------



## weltweit (Apr 20, 2016)

If Britain votes out then Scotland is also likely to and then there may be a Tory majority in England which will not bode well for workers rights in England.


----------



## Greebozz (Apr 20, 2016)

andysays said:


> Perhaps you haven't been paying attention for the last 30+ years, but the post-war consensus is already well and truely gone, and the NHS and state education (to name but two) are already being abolished in favour of private finance having control of and making profit from services which used to be thought of as deserving of public ownership and control. All this has happened despite our membership of the EU, indeed it's been and continues to be the deliberate and relentless direction of travel across the EU as a whole.
> 
> Your suggestion that remaining in the EU can or will be in the least bit relevant to protecting ordinary people from the hyper-capitalism we're already experiencing suggests that it's you who's living in a fantasy world of unicorns and fairy dust.
> 
> No one has said that Britain leaving will automatically bring what you refer to disparagingly as the "Glorious Peoples RevolutionTM", rather that it will open up opportunities for labour to exert some measure of power over a British state in disary. Those opportunities will still need to be taken up and fought for, but while we remain locked into the explicitly neo-liberal anti-social democratic prison of the EU, we don't even have those.


I agree with you entirely.  Things are terrible now with the demolition of the health service and other public institutions but all that is needed is for British citizens to vote for good politicians, Ones that are committed to making the world a fairer place.  It may be a far-off dream but it's doable.

There is talk of a bonfire of workers rights if Britain leaves EU, that might be true but if we are out of Europe we have true power to decide the workers rights that we want for our country.  At some point someone is going to say, let's have a fairer society,and have better workers rights, not just the superrich and those having to make do with crumbs from the table.

This is off topic but with the mass Syrian /North African migrations into Europe it does rather show the unstoppable power of human numbers.  I'm not talking about the rights and wrongs of that, but the power is undeniable.


----------



## chilango (Apr 20, 2016)

weltweit said:


> If Britain votes out then Scotland is also likely to and then there may be a Tory majority in England which will not bode well for workers rights in England.



I think (or hope) that a rump Englandandwales would find itself quite a different place and there'd be a gap for a new political landscape of one stripe or another.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 20, 2016)

chilango said:


> I think (or hope) that a rump Englandandwales would find itself quite a different place and there'd be a gap for a new political landscape of one stripe or another.


Whilst scotland is stuck with the neo-liberal eu.


----------



## SaskiaJayne (Apr 20, 2016)

andysays said:


> No one has said that Britain leaving will automatically bring what you refer to disparagingly as the "Glorious Peoples RevolutionTM", rather that it will open up opportunities for labour to exert some measure of power over a British state in disary. Those opportunities will still need to be taken up and fought for, but while we remain locked into the explicitly neo-liberal anti-social democratic prison of the EU, we don't even have those.


Yes this is the sort of lines I have been thinking along.  Apart from the very wealthy minority I suppose the haves & have nots in society could be defined as the older home owners & the younger home renters who have no chance of owning which in this society is really the only way of having a home that you know you can be secure in for the rest of your life if thats what you want. I would have thought that the balance will eventually tip as the old die off & the young get older but still cannot afford to buy but it would be nice to speed up the process.

The housing market owning or rented will continue to be not fit for purpose until enough voters get pissed off enough to vote in a socialist government who will start a large programe of council house building. It's difficult to see how the Tory party can reunify short term with the bitter divisions within the party at the moment so it seems a good time for a more socialist Labour to seize the initiative. Obviously after the referendum whatever the result we will still have a Tory majority government probably for their full term but possibly 90s history might repeat except Labour could get their act together as socialist Labour rather than nu Labour?


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## chilango (Apr 20, 2016)

Fuck Labour.

I'd hope that a new political landscape caused by the inevitable turmoil of leaving the EU and the break up of Brirain would leave the old guard in disarray and people looking for a fresh start (not that that equals something "good" automatically).


----------



## SaskiaJayne (Apr 20, 2016)

It does not really matter what they call themselves as long as they get the politics right.


----------



## andysays (Apr 20, 2016)

SaskiaJayne said:


> It does not really matter what they call themselves as long as they get the politics right.



Just to be clear, my reference to labour (lower case) meant labour opposed to capital, not the Labour party. 

The absolute most we can expect from the latter is mild social democracy, and with neo-liberalism/hyper-capitalism/whatever you wanna call it rampant worldwide, social democracy in one country isn't much of an option either, IMO


----------



## krink (Apr 20, 2016)

Cid said:


> You can't do both.



i work on the elections and you can. all you have to do is mark your vote clearly enough so the arbitrator is convinced it was your vote. anything else on the slip is irrelevant. people scribble on them to get their pens going, people doodle, draw and write comments, kids crayon on them etc etc but if the x in the box is beyond doubt it gets counted.

*edit though i take your point about not 'sticking it to the man' if it is also a vote. you'll see what i'm on about soon enough, I always draw a nice picture on my postal vote slip. i'm not trying to make any political point by doing so, it's to entertain my fellow elections staff. it's great when we get an odd one


----------



## Greebozz (Apr 21, 2016)

*EU pulls plug on kettle rules to take steam out of Brexit campaign*
*EU pulls plug on kettle rules to take steam out of Brexit campaign - FT.com*

Can you imagine the horror of only being able to have 2000W kettles and Britain would have no ability to say no to this.  Weigh your political European ideologies carefully.


----------



## Tom A (Apr 21, 2016)

I'll vote to remain, not out of any love for the EU and its bureaucratic and plutocratic structures, nor for some over-exaggerated claim that it safeguards our human rights (several EU countries with worse records than us, especially in the ex-Soviet bloc countries), but for bread-and-butter issues. It would adversely affect our economy and unemployment, neither of which is in rude health, and several third sector organisations where I have volunteered and worked for pretty much owe their existence to EU funding, especially since funding from local authorities and central government has dried up.


----------



## Greebozz (Apr 21, 2016)

Tom A said:


> I'll vote to remain, not out of any love for the EU and its bureaucratic and plutocratic structures, nor for some over-exaggerated claim that it safeguards our human rights (several EU countries with worse records than us, especially in the ex-Soviet bloc countries), but for bread-and-butter issues. It would adversely affect our economy and unemployment, neither of which is in rude health, and several third sector organisations where I have volunteered and worked for pretty much owe their existence to EU funding, especially since funding from local authorities and central government has dried up.


Third sector organisation, would that be The one legged black lesbian battered partner protection Society, or something similar.  Excuse me for taking the piss but seriously could and that funding for your organisation stop and if it did you would have no say about it.  When you rather vote for a politician that wishes to fund things you are interested in, because you could get rid of them if they didn't do what they said they were going to do.

As for the economy, maybe it does benefit some people, but it seems to me the only people to benefit from vast quantities of cheap labour our businesses and shareholders.  People want cheap waiters and cheap hotel staff to keep their expenses down.  Everyone that has come from the European Union has to live somewhere along with their young family.  Making it far more difficult for people to get on the property ladder and actually get genuine wealth.


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 21, 2016)

Greebozz said:


> The one legged black lesbian battered partner protection Society,


nice. so you'r anti-immigrant and you use right wing charity bashing tropes that I've heard from the mouths of some right horrible cunts. Sort it out


----------



## Tom A (Apr 21, 2016)

Greebozz said:


> Third sector organisation, would that be The one legged black lesbian battered partner protection Society, or something similar. Excuse me for taking the piss but seriously could and that funding for your organisation stop and if it did you would have no say about it. When you rather vote for a politician that wishes to fund things you are interested in, because you could get rid of them if they didn't do what they said they were going to do.



No actually, it's a community environmental organisation which helps to provide and maintain green spaces and street trees in the city (and surrounding towns) that I live in. Also we have to apply for that funding, and it's touch and go whether we get it. I was there when the public sector cuts had their knock-on effect on jobs there, and the EU has been a lifeline for such organisations.


----------



## Greebozz (Apr 21, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> nice. so you'r anti-immigrant and you use right wing charity bashing tropes that I've heard from the mouths of some right horrible cunts. Sort it out


Oh get a life you great big drama queen,don't create some daft straw man of your own imaginings.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Apr 21, 2016)

Nice work if you can get it




> http://www.buzzfeed.com/jimwaterson/...gBB#.sh8KlzD77
> 
> _Two Conservative MPs paid themselves a total of £41,000 to run their own high profile not-for-profit anti-EU campaign group, the latest parliamentary register of members’ interests reveals.
> Peter Bone and Tom Pursglove received the money on top of their MPs’ salaries for work undertaken on behalf of the Grassroots Out campaign group, an organisation they founded.
> ...


----------



## Greebozz (Apr 21, 2016)

Also has everyone forgotten about that hideous pan-European business deal that will mean our public services can be sued if they don't open their services up to tender by private companies.

Secondly, what if the European Union becomes incredibly right wing and dominated by big business?  We as a country will be forced to go along with it.  Health, education and welfare in this country is in a pretty poor state, I'll be voting for the person who I believe is go do something about it.


----------



## Tom A (Apr 21, 2016)

Greebozz said:


> Also has everyone forgotten about that hideous pan-European business deal that will mean our public services can be sued if they don't open their services up to tender by private companies.



TTIP you mean? The British government could easily sign up to a similarly nasty trade deal by itself.


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 21, 2016)

Greebozz said:


> what if the European Union becomes incredibly right wing and dominated by big business?


it already has and already is.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Apr 21, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> it already has and already is.



As is the UK


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 21, 2016)

Artaxerxes said:


> As is the UK


yes. The remain argument- the big one for me- is the whole idea of the 'bonfire of workers rights' issue that the EU will supposedly protect us from. We're in the EU now and the tories are still going to bull through an incredibly shitty anti union bill. One which seeks to count non votes/abstentions as no's! among many other things. So the idea that the EU is a protection on workers rights front doesn't ring true imo


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 21, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> yes. The remain argument- the big one for me- is the whole idea of the 'bonfire of workers rights' issue that the EU will supposedly protect us from. We're in the EU now and the tories are still going to bull through an incredibly shitty anti union bill. One which seeks to count non votes/abstentions as no's! among many other things. So the idea that the EU is a protection on workers rights front doesn't ring true imo


like so much else in the current debate it is a heap of stinking manure


----------



## weltweit (Apr 21, 2016)

Artaxerxes said:


> Nice work if you can get it


Well that stinks!


----------



## William of Walworth (Apr 22, 2016)

Greebozz said:


> Also has everyone forgotten about that hideous pan-European business deal that will mean our public services can be sued if they don't open their services up to tender by private companies.
> 
> Secondly, what if the European Union becomes incredibly right wing and dominated by big business?  We as a country will be forced to go along with it.  Health, education and welfare in this country is in a pretty poor state, *I'll be voting for the person who I believe is go do something about it*.



To stop TTIP you mean? Who's going to do that then?


----------



## William of Walworth (Apr 22, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> yes. The remain argument- the big one for me- is the whole idea of the 'bonfire of workers rights' issue that the EU will supposedly protect us from. We're in the EU now and the tories are still going to bull through an incredibly shitty anti union bill. One which seeks to count non votes/abstentions as no's! among many other things. So the idea that the EU is a protection on workers rights front doesn't ring true imo




I see your points absolutely, but my depressed (and even Eeyoreish   ) look at the workers rights issue is that Brexiteers will demolish them even more comprehensively than the EU can manage 

Brexit won't save us from TTIP either.


----------



## toblerone3 (Apr 22, 2016)

I'm backing the Corbyn/Cameron alliance on this one.


----------



## kebabking (Apr 22, 2016)

William of Walworth said:


> .....Brexit won't save us from TTIP either.



Indeed, i take the view that if people don't like the deal struck between the largest economy on the planet and the EU, they are likely to find any deal struck between the largest economy on the planet and the 6th largest economy even less attractive.

Any deal negotiated between a post-leave Tory government and the US is going to make TTIP look like TUSC's election manifesto - to vote to leave the EU because you don't like TTIP is not unakin to setting fire to your head because you've got a runny nose...


----------



## Greebozz (Apr 22, 2016)

kebabking said:


> Indeed, i take the view that if people don't like the deal struck between the largest economy on the planet and the EU, they are likely to find any deal struck between the largest economy on the planet and the 6th largest economy even less attractive.
> 
> Any deal negotiated between a post-leave Tory government and the US is going to make TTIP look like TUSC's election manifesto - to vote to leave the EU because you don't like TTIP is not unakin to setting fire to your head because you've got a runny nose...


Worrying times.  It seems like conquest by treaty and contract is far more sinister and long lasting than conventional war.  There is no democracy in big business, is a totalitarian power if there's a bit of profit to be had through fracking it will be done despite destroying the water supply.  Or chopping the rainforest down, whatever.  Oh to have a country that was nimble and could change direction and eventually vote out the arseholes that are in charge.


----------



## girasol (Apr 22, 2016)

I still can't decide, it's going to end up being a gut decision perhaps...  I think about it everyday, listen to both sides, and I guess on the day... erm, well, hopefully my mind will be made up in the form of a gut decision 

So much propaganda and fear mongering though.  Hard to get real facts.  And actually, I don't think anyone really knows for sure what it will be like if the UK leaves the EU, not with certainty.


----------



## girasol (Apr 22, 2016)

gosub said:


> We are not an insignificant player,but  Premiership mid table at best.  Direction of travel of the EU though : Hand over power of attorney and live in a granny annex in what was your own garden.



 

Seriously, that kind of game thinking is what I don't get.  It's not a game! why is the UK so fucking desperate to still be so influential and a 'player'?  Player of what?  Get off being such an imperialistic arsewipe of a country and concentrate resources and warmongering money on your own people, housing, education and so on.  Invest in social projects, building, education and stop obsessing about selling tat to people who don't need it.  

The sad thing is, leaving or staying won't change any of that, not unless a properly socialist government gets elected and that ain't never going to happen.  Corbyn is starting to metamorphose into sell out politician in front of our own very eyes.


----------



## gosub (Apr 22, 2016)

kebabking said:


> Indeed, i take the view that if people don't like the deal struck between the largest economy on the planet and the EU, they are likely to find any deal struck between the largest economy on the planet and the 6th largest economy even less attractive.
> 
> Any deal negotiated between a post-leave Tory government and the US is going to make TTIP look like TUSC's election manifesto - to vote to leave the EU because you don't like TTIP is not unakin to setting fire to your head because you've got a runny nose...



The ability of our democratically  elected representatives to amend TTIP is extremely limited. A UK only one, if it happened, would be a far more transparent process. Tories have a majority of 12 and no majority in the (unelected)Lords....   Currently a rush to complete, ahead of US elections out of perception that the next administration may well less predisposed  to signing (which would probably equally be true of a US/UK mini TTIP.  France and Germany also have elections coming up, but doesn't seem to be a factor.


----------



## Santino (Apr 22, 2016)

girasol said:


> I still can't decide, it's going to end up being a gut decision perhaps...  I think about it everyday, listen to both sides, and I guess on the day... erm, well, hopefully my mind will be made up in the form of a gut decision
> 
> So much propaganda and fear mongering though.  Hard to get real facts.  And actually, I don't think anyone really knows for sure what it will be like if the UK leaves the EU, not with certainty.


Brundecided


----------



## gosub (Apr 22, 2016)

girasol said:


> Seriously, that kind of game thinking is what I don't get.  It's not a game! why is the UK so fucking desperate to still be so influential and a 'player'?  Player of what?  Get off being such an imperialistic arsewipe of a country and concentrate resources and warmongering money on your own people, housing, education and so on.  Invest in social projects, building, education and stop obsessing about selling tat to people who don't need it.
> 
> The sad thing is, leaving or staying won't change any of that, not unless a properly socialist government gets elected and that ain't never going to happen.  Corbyn is starting to metamorphose into sell out politician in front of our own very eyes.



The lot of the Granny who has signed over her assets to be administered by someone else is not always a happy one


I used Premiership as a simile, to react to someone claiming Leavers were of the opinion it was still most influential nation.  I don't even like football, and neither of the teams I'd claim to support when encountering the football bores is Premiership


----------



## weltweit (Apr 22, 2016)

girasol said:


> I still can't decide, it's going to end up being a gut decision perhaps...  I think about it everyday, listen to both sides, and I guess on the day... erm, well, hopefully my mind will be made up in the form of a gut decision


I have a gut feeling for Remain, but what I am seeing of stats from the more reputable players are supporting that. I don't think I could bring myself to vote out as that would mean being bedfellows with some frankly swivel eyed lunatics and racists.


----------



## laptop (Apr 22, 2016)

gosub said:


> The ability of our democratically  elected representatives to amend TTIP is extremely limited. A UK only one, if it happened, would be a far more transparent process.



You haven't had any actual dealing with Westminster, have you?


----------



## danny la rouge (Apr 22, 2016)

Despite a deep antipathy towards the EU as an institution (as opposed to the idea of European federation, which I support), and despite my resolve to vote leave after the shameful treatment of Greece, the Leave campaign has filled me with such revulsion that I will now be abstaining from the whole sordid affair. A plague on all of them. Hopefully a slow, lingering and fatal one.


----------



## gosub (Apr 22, 2016)

laptop said:


> You haven't had any actual dealing with Westminster, have you?



Current situtation, Government uses EU to get through legislation it doesn't want scruitinized.
Not had dealing with Westminster in a number of years, well not since senior civil servants missed a meeting in Geneva I'd set up due to "being unaware of the time difference"


----------



## Artaxerxes (Apr 22, 2016)

gosub said:


> The ability of our democratically  elected representatives to amend TTIP is extremely limited. A UK only one, if it happened, would be a far more transparent process. Tories have a majority of 12 and no majority in the (unelected)Lords....   Currently a rush to complete, ahead of US elections out of perception that the next administration may well less predisposed  to signing (which would probably equally be true of a US/UK mini TTIP.  France and Germany also have elections coming up, but doesn't seem to be a factor.



*splurts tea all over monitor*

Snouts in the fucking trough this lot of 'democratically' elected fuckmuppets will happily bend over and take it up the arse from TTIP whether we are In or Out.


----------



## gosub (Apr 22, 2016)

Artaxerxes said:


> *splurts tea all over monitor*
> 
> Snouts in the fucking trough this lot of 'democratically' elected fuckmuppets will happily bend over and take it up the arse from TTIP whether we are In or Out.



No that what happens if we stay in : they either adopt it as is or throw it out entirely (they adopt it as is), UK one they have to make arguments for it, accept amendments and then get three line whipped into what ever their party says it wants, that we can look up, blame them entirely and harass them horribly by sending a tweet.  Not saying its great, but is an improvement


----------



## lizzieloo (Apr 22, 2016)

I've changed my mind since the last vote on here


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Apr 22, 2016)

I've past fuckin caring. Smash the lot of it.


----------



## laptop (Apr 22, 2016)

gosub said:


> No that what happens if we stay in : they either adopt it as is or throw it out entirely (they adopt it as is), UK one they have to make arguments for it, accept amendments and then get three line whipped into what ever their party says it wants, that we can look up, blame them entirely and harass them horribly by sending a tweet.  Not saying its great, but is an improvement


You have spotted that it's a treaty, not legislation?


----------



## gosub (Apr 22, 2016)

laptop said:


> You have spotted that it's a treaty, not legislation?



looking at http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/25/contents   you are right. - no real democratic benefit in unilateral negotiation.


----------



## Tom A (Apr 22, 2016)

Indie article about how leaving the EU will not shield us from TTIP


----------



## Sea Star (Apr 22, 2016)

Tom A said:


> Indie article about how leaving the EU will not shield us from TTIP


does anyone believe it will?


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 22, 2016)

Mr.Bishie said:


> I've past fuckin caring. Smash the lot of it.


----------



## Tom A (Apr 22, 2016)

AuntiStella said:


> does anyone believe it will?


No one other than certain liberal elements on the pro-Brexit side.


----------



## gosub (Apr 22, 2016)

AuntiStella said:


> does anyone believe it will?


I think it would kick the wholething into the long grass on the other side of the US election, and would be lower down the to do list for the UK than sorting out relationship with EU


----------



## laptop (Apr 22, 2016)

gosub said:


> looking at http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/25/contents   you are right. - no real democratic benefit in unilateral negotiation.


You mean bilateral, unless you know something about the negotiations that no-one's leaked 

But, yes: all MPs would get to look at would be any consequent amendments to national legislation. And they're fucking useless, especially when told "you have to do this because treaty".

Worse than MEPs, in my experience.


----------



## marty21 (Apr 23, 2016)

Fox on Friday: Brexit can liberate Europe for the third time in 100 years - The Conservative Woman

Apparently the Brexiteers are freedom fighters  Disgraced ex Minister Liam Fox seems to think a vote to leave will 'liberate' Europe for the 3rd time  

Basically the Brexiteers are doing the same as all the armed forces in 2 world wars


----------



## kebabking (Apr 24, 2016)

marty21 said:


> Fox on Friday: Brexit can liberate Europe for the third time in 100 years - The Conservative Woman
> 
> Apparently the Brexiteers are freedom fighters  Disgraced ex Minister Liam Fox seems to think a vote to leave will 'liberate' Europe for the 3rd time
> 
> Basically the Brexiteers are doing the same as all the armed forces in 2 world wars



given the idiot Fox's efforts at the all-too-long time he spent at the MOD, we have yet another - on a very long list - of reasons to suggest that Brexiteers have only the lightest grip on reality...


----------



## tim (Apr 24, 2016)

Ranbay said:


>




Export or if that fails deport them and then impose strict migration controls on singers.


----------



## goldenecitrone (Apr 24, 2016)

marty21 said:


> Basically the Brexiteers are doing the same as all the armed forces in 2 world wars



Many are deluded enough to believe that, I'm sure.


----------



## tim (Apr 24, 2016)

Greebozz said:


> I don't think anyone on this forum is going to be better off because of continual immigration to the UK from the other EU countries.  That is unless you are a property owner or are in the buy to let business.  But the vast majority who are not so well off, are going to find things harder and harder.
> 
> While Britain standard of living, health and education provision is better than that of the poorest performing country in the EU's, people will want to continue coming here in vast numbers.
> 
> ...



Neomalthusian bollocks!


----------



## goldenecitrone (Apr 24, 2016)

After Obama's intervention for the Bremainers, next week it's Marine Le Pen for the Brexiteers. Exciting times.


----------



## stethoscope (Apr 24, 2016)

So has this whole debate now been basically lost to people just reducing it to celebs, egotistic politicians and assorted arseholes on both sides and what they have to say? Rather than what it might mean for pro-worker, pro-socialist positions whether we stay or leave. Very depressing.


----------



## Greebozz (Apr 24, 2016)

tim said:


> Neomalthusian bollocks!


Anyone who replies with a two word insult, I assume is an immature 14-year-old, who created an account to talk shit in the hope of getting a rise out of someone.


----------



## stethoscope (Apr 24, 2016)

Greebozz said:


> Anyone who replies with a two word insult, I assume is an immature 14-year-old, who created an account to talk shit in the hope of getting a rise out of someone.



Fuck off.


----------



## stethoscope (Apr 24, 2016)




----------



## Greebozz (Apr 24, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> Fuck off.


No you fuck off


----------



## andysays (Apr 24, 2016)

Greebozz said:


> ...who created an account to talk shit in the hope of getting a rise out of someone.



Yeah, don't you just it hate it when people do that...


----------



## Greebozz (Apr 24, 2016)

Let the record show that I wasn't the one that started chucking the insults.


----------



## laptop (Apr 24, 2016)

Greebozz said:


> Let the record show that I wasn't the one that started chucking the insults.


Just spouting neomalthusian bollocks. 

Which is the most precise description it's worth.


----------



## Greebozz (Apr 24, 2016)

laptop said:


> Just spouting neomthusian bollocks.


piss off


----------



## Greebozz (Apr 24, 2016)

I can't tell a lie, I feel really bad about my rude replies to stethoscope and laptop, I have to apologise.  This might like sound like some joke but it's not, I feel pretty lame, I can't hang with the dashing young blades.


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 24, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> So has this whole debate now been basically lost to people just reducing it to celebs, egotistic politicians and assorted arseholes on both sides and what they have to say? Rather than what it might mean for pro-worker, pro-socialist positions whether we stay or leave. Very depressing.


it'd take a mighty convincing argument to shift me away from screw the eu now. Have come to realise that a left out position is going to get not a single moment of coverage in t'news so I'll have to grind my teeth as a series of increasing dislikable swivels and headbangers get the out campaign coverage


----------



## stethoscope (Apr 24, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> it'd take a mighty convincing argument to shift me away from screw the eu now. Have come to realise that a left out position is going to get not a single moment of coverage in t'news so I'll have to grind my teeth as a series of increasing dislikable swivels and headbangers get the out campaign coverage



Yeah, just fucking vexes me mate.

Shit fucking neo-liberal politics from all of them - left or right.


----------



## youngian (Apr 24, 2016)

Well this is going well, Brexiters are entitled to invite their international supporters over to have their say just like Obama. But Vote Leave's Gisela Stuart want to ban her own supporters.


> A senior figure in the campaign for UK exit from the EU has urged the Home Office to bar French far right leader Marine Le Pen from visiting Britain.
> 
> Vote Leave co-chairman Gisela Stuart said Ms Le Pen held "divisive and inflammatory" views and her visit would not be "conducive to the public good".
> 
> ...


----------



## stethoscope (Apr 24, 2016)

People like youngian.


----------



## stethoscope (Apr 24, 2016)

Fuck Obama, fuck Le Pen, fuck Galloway, fuck Farage, fuck Cameron, fuck Gove, fuck Corbyn, fuck Boris.

Shallow charade.


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 24, 2016)

I sort of want to get one off the Grassroots Go campaign ties. They are so fugly its almost parody:






I mean, for real?

yeah charades till the date is all thats left for me. Of course there'll be plenty of snidey 'look at the company you keep' remarks from people who should know better and we can expect increasingly hysterical meeja assault and panic-button pushing statements of doom from the innie politicos but really, there simply hasn't been a convincing left in case. I've seen attempts and they aren't much more than labour style 'but the tories' stuff, prophecies of financial doom and the least convincing one- the EU is what keeps us from ww3


----------



## redsquirrel (Apr 24, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> Fuck Obama, fuck Le Pen, fuck Galloway, fuck Farage, fuck Cameron, fuck Gove, fuck Corbyn, fuck Boris.
> 
> Shallow charade.


Aye, noose's for them all.


----------



## gosub (Apr 24, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> I sort of want to get one off the Grassroots Go campaign ties. They are so fugly its almost parody:
> 
> I mean, for real?
> 
> yeah charades till the date is all thats left for me. Of course there'll be plenty of snidey 'look at the company you keep' remarks from people who should know better and we can expect increasingly hysterical meeja assault and panic-button pushing statements of doom from the innie politicos but really, there simply hasn't been a convincing left in case. I've seen attempts and they aren't much more than labour style 'but the tories' stuff, prophecies of financial doom and the least convincing one- the EU is what keeps us from ww3



Hilary Benn MP, Mick Cash, Nigel Farage MEP, Justine Greening MP, Any Questions? - BBC Radio 4   Mick Cash gives it a go, apparently


----------



## laptop (Apr 24, 2016)

youngian said:


> Well this is going well, Brexiters are entitled to invite their international supporters over to have their say just like Obama. But Vote Leave's Gisela Stuart want to ban her own supporters.



I am really, really looking forward to watching various heads - particularly those of kippers - explode as they realise:

They are being told to leave the EU...



...by a fascist...





..._in French!_


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 24, 2016)

Greebozz said:


> Anyone who replies with a two word insult, I assume is an immature 14-year-old, who created an account to talk shit in the hope of getting a rise out of someone.



It's not an insult. It's an analysis of your post ("neo-Malthusian"), and a quantification of the content ("bollocks").


----------



## tim (Apr 24, 2016)

Greebozz said:


> Anyone who replies with a two word insult, I assume is an immature 14-year-old, who created an account to talk shit in the hope of getting a rise out of someone.




If that was my intention, I certainly succeeded! Sadly, though, getting a rise out of you doesn't seem to be a particularly challenging task.

 As to talking shit, that was clearly what you were doing. Firstly, the EU migrant situation seems fairly stable at the moment, as there are a limited number of people who want to come here, most of ehomhave already done so. At he moment some jove into the UK but others including British citizens move out to other places.

As to your final paragraph, the world population is growing, but at an increasingly slower rate as it moves towards stabilisation. Birth rates are falling because people in many parts of the world are a little more prosperous, infant mortality has fallen, and extra children are increasingly a drain on, rather than a means of supplementing family incomes. As to our housing and other infrastructure, even in  London and the broader commuter belt, that could be improved and expanded at little real cost to the environment. Given the political will, that is.


----------



## tim (Apr 24, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> Fuck Obama, fuck Le Pen, fuck Galloway, fuck Farage, fuck Cameron, fuck Gove, fuck Corbyn, fuck Boris.



I hope you take precautions before all that fucking, otherwise you'll be riddled with STD's


----------



## laptop (Apr 24, 2016)

tim said:


> the world population is growing, but at an increasingly slower rate as it moves towards stabilisation. Birth rates are falling because people in many parts of the world are a little more prosperous, infant mortality has fallen, and extra children are increasingly a drain on, rather than a means of supplementing family incomes. As to our housing and other infrastructure, even in  London and the broader commuter belt, that could be improved and expanded at little real cost to the environment. Given the political will, that is.



As I understand it, the thing that _definitely_ correlates with stabilising population is education for girls.


----------



## tim (Apr 24, 2016)

Tom A said:


> Indie article about how leaving the EU will not shield us from TTIP



Does anyone aside fron Cameron still support TTIP? It's unpopular here and on the continent; and Sanders, Trump and apparently now  even Clinton seem to be against it


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 24, 2016)

tim said:


> Does anyone aside fron Cameron still support TTIP? It's unpopular here and on the continent; and Sanders, Trump and apparently now  even Clinton seem to be against it


clintons tacking leftish to counter those 'feeling the bern'. Once she has the nomination all that shits out the window, she'll back ttip or I'll eat my second favourite hat


----------



## laptop (Apr 24, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> clintons tacking leftish to counter those 'feeling the bern'. Once she has the nomination all that shits out the window, she'll back ttip or I'll eat my second favourite hat


What harm does TTIP do to the US worker?

Is the bern's opposition simply protectionist? Against floods of German cars?

Just that I've only ever thought of it as US negotiators trying to shift the EU their way...


----------



## stethoscope (Apr 24, 2016)

tim said:


> I hope you take precautions before all that fucking, otherwise you'll be riddled with STD's



Shit Trade Deals?


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 24, 2016)

laptop said:


> What harm does TTIP do to the US worker?
> 
> Is the bern's opposition simply protectionist? Against floods of German cars?
> 
> Just that I've only ever thought of it as US negotiators trying to shift the EU their way...



For me the secrecy and the heavy implication that it will allow us style anti-trust law (I think that means anti monopoly or cartel but can be used to oppose state owned operations and if true would absolutely be used so, these people are vultures).

It could be a degree of protectionism from that side of the pond, the lack of total transparency around TTIP and its discussions however lead any sane person to suspect back room capitalist favouring stitch up.


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 24, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> Shit Trade Deals?


Stitchup Transatlantic Dickheads


----------



## Brixton Hatter (Apr 24, 2016)

Vote out.

Because:
a) it will weaken the UK establishment
b) it will weaken the neo-liberal, pro-business EU
c) it will enable opportunities for pro-labour movements.

A vote to stay in merely perpetuates the same old shit we've been experiencing. 

Embrace the exciting possibility of a different future....


----------



## laptop (Apr 24, 2016)

Brixton Hatter said:


> .
> 
> Embrace the exciting possibility of a different future....



Are you in fact the CPGB(ML)?


----------



## Brixton Hatter (Apr 24, 2016)

ha ha, lol...no.

(Though on second reading it does sound like the last page of the Ragged Trousered Philanthropists.)


----------



## youngian (Apr 25, 2016)

Brixton Hatter said:


> Vote out.
> 
> Because:
> a) it will weaken the UK establishment
> ...


How's that going to happen? you at least need to make an honest argument of how we would better off under a protectionist national planned economy rather than hanging on the coat tails of Tea Party crackpots and nationalists to do the heavy lifting for you.



DotCommunist said:


> and the least convincing one- the EU is what keeps us from ww3


It's on the onus of Leavers to explain what was so good about the nation state balance of power systems (or attempted hegemonies) that dominated the European interstate system before the creation of the EU.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 25, 2016)

Brixton Hatter said:


> Vote out.
> 
> Because:
> a) it will weaken the UK establishment
> ...


a) How? A sizeable (ultra-reactionary) chunk of the UK establishment wants out. Which bits of the UK establishment will be weakened? 

b) That will lead to what in its place? And how will it be better?

c) How? In the short term at least it will do the exact opposite - it will enable opportunities for the anti-labour movements that are dominating the brexit campaign.


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 25, 2016)

youngian said:


> How's that going to happen? you at least need to make an honest argument of how we would better off under a protectionist national planned economy rather than hanging on the coat tails of Tea Party crackpots and nationalists to do the heavy lifting for you.
> 
> 
> It's on the onus of Leavers to explain what was so good about the nation state balance of power systems (or attempted hegemonies) that dominated the European interstate system before the creation of the EU.


is it bollocks, bogeyman war, bogeyman famine, bogeyman death.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 25, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> is it bollocks, bogeyman war, bogeyman famine, bogeyman death.


Seems reasonable to me to ask anyone making any case to give an idea about how good things will happen that is a little more concrete than 'by magic'.


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 25, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Seems reasonable to me to ask anyone making any case to give an idea about how good things will happen that is a little more concrete than 'by magic'.


I'm not making a case. Its up to stay to convince and so far no dice, I've said all along that the stay in arguments aren't good enough after greece. Last shred went there. The idea that a major european war would errupt without the eu is bonkers bullshit though.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 25, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> I'm not making a case. Its up to stay to convince and so far no dice, I've said all along that the stay in arguments aren't good enough after greece. Last shred went there. The idea that a major european war would errupt without the eu is bonkers bullshit though.


The idea that nasty regimes could emerge in places like Greece in the aftermath of a collapsed EU is not bonkers bullshit. It's exactly what Varoufakis thinks will happen.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 25, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> Its up to stay to convince and so far no dice,.


As for this, it is entirely arbitrary to say that it's up to one or other side to convince. That's meaningless.


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 25, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> it is entirely arbitrary to say that it's up to one or other side to convince


9 mill of taxpayers money says otherwise
but yes I'm being glib there. There isn't going to be a rise in totalitarian regimes and a replay of the 30s if we leave. Youngians 'what was so good about balance of powers' etc is meaningless because its 2016 not 1930.


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 25, 2016)

in any case I see the FN are doing rather well, EU or no EU. Golden Dawn not doing so well these days, EU or no EU


----------



## gosub (Apr 25, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> in any case I see the FN are doing rather well, EU or no EU. Golden Dawn not doing so well these days, EU or no EU


Austria election: Far-right tops first round of presidential vote - BBC News


----------



## youngian (Apr 25, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> Youngians 'what was so good about balance of powers' etc is meaningless because its 2016 not 1930.


Or 1755, 1815, 1871, 1914. Why is that, what is different about the European interstate system now?



littlebabyjesus said:


> The idea that nasty regimes could emerge in places like Greece in the aftermath of a collapsed EU is not bonkers bullshit. It's exactly what Varoufakis thinks will happen.


To begin to pull apart the threads that bind Europe together you better have a very good reason. Greece having an overvalued currency is not one of them. There's more nascent nation states in Europe than there has ever been and all have (or applied to) anchored themselves into the European Union apart from Russia's Near Abroad. Including the former Yugoslav federal states. Their experiment in nationalism in the 90s didn't go too well.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 25, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> The idea that nasty regimes could emerge in places like Greece in the aftermath of a collapsed EU is not bonkers bullshit. It's exactly what Varoufakis thinks will happen.


Of course, the EU hasn't in anyway _produced _this potential nastiness  - heightened it, gave it legs and helped put it at the centre of opposition to its imposition of neo-liberalism.


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 25, 2016)

the four horsemen. War, Famine, no more brie, and the worse horseman: It'll make my queue at the port take longer.


----------



## Brainaddict (Apr 25, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> I
> Of course there'll be plenty of snidey 'look at the company you keep' remarks from people who should know better and we can expect increasingly hysterical meeja assault and panic-button pushing statements of doom from the innie politicos but really, there simply hasn't been a convincing left in case. I've seen attempts and they aren't much more than labour style 'but the tories' stuff, prophecies of financial doom and the least convincing one- the EU is what keeps us from ww3



I think a more convincing argument for staying in (which I lean towards right now, without much conviction) goes like this: we are under the jackboot of neo-lib hegemony whether we stay or go, so most of the claims about what will or won't happen if we're in and out don't amount to much. The battles we will need to fight will be pretty much the same - most of the claimed differences in political battles are probably not that substantial. But the effect that leaving will have on actual people will be very real. Millions of people will potentially have their freedom of movement inhibited, may even lose their right to stay in the UK (or if they are UKian, their right to stay elsewhere). This could affect a lot of people I know. So even though I know business also wants free movement for cheap labour, I also know the people who actually move, who have their own will and desires etc. And I'm not feeling very happy about them getting fucked over. And one of the problems with the left exit stance is that the right will be in control of any exit, so the lexiters won't get to protect those people. Whatever the motivations of those voting to leave, those who want to move (or stay) will be fucked over.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 25, 2016)

Can anyone back up this mass expulsion scenario. The one outlined above.


----------



## Brainaddict (Apr 25, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Can anyone back up this mass expulsion scenario. The one outlined above.


No, it's not about mass expulsion. I realise that economically none of the countries involved can countenance that, least of all the UK. What's more likely is that Eastern Europeans could start being regulated under visas, and may have time limits on how long they can stay (leading to countermeasures by European states). So a mass expulsion isn't likely, but a controlled expulsion is quite possible I think.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 25, 2016)

Brainaddict said:


> No, it's not about mass expulsion. I realise that economically none of the countries involved can countenance that, least of all the UK. What's more likely is that Eastern Europeans could start being regulated under visas, and may have time limits on how long they can stay (leading to countermeasures by European states). So a mass expulsion isn't likely, but a controlled expulsion is quite possible I think.


If it's not why are you using the fear of that to agitate for staying in the EU?


----------



## Brainaddict (Apr 25, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> If it's not why are you using the fear of that to agitate for staying in the EU?


I'm not. I'm sure others can read what I wrote, which was about inhibitions on freedom of movement.


----------



## emanymton (Apr 25, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Can anyone back up this mass expulsion scenario. The one outlined above.


We have a couple of women form China working in our office a few years ago. Despite having been there a couple of years they had to re-apply for their visas and where unsuccessful, which meant they had to go back to China. We also have a couple of Polish women, I wounder if they may find themselves in a similar situation a few years down the line if we did leave. Although I don't think we will leave, regardless of the referendum result.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 25, 2016)

Brainaddict said:


> I'm not. I'm sure others can read what I wrote, which was about inhibitions on freedom of movement.


Yeah, so expulsions. despite now capital or state wanting that to happen. It's bizarre.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 25, 2016)

emanymton said:


> We have a couple of women form China working in our office a few years ago. Despite having been there a couple of years they had to re-apply for their visas and where unsuccessful, which meant they had to go back to China. We also have a couple of Polish women, I wounder if they may find themselves in a similar situation a few years down the line if we did leave. Although I don't think we will leave, regardless of the referendum result.


A similar situation to what? A made up story about being expelled? I'm not sure the EU can regulate whatever the situation is with china.


----------



## weltweit (Apr 25, 2016)

I know quite a few continentals living and working in the UK. One of them has become a UK citizen, but I do wonder if the rest might be asked to "go home" if leave wins.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 25, 2016)

weltweit said:


> I know quite a few continentals living and working in the UK. One of them has become a UK citizen, but I do wonder if the rest might be asked to "go home" if leave wins.


Is there any method of finding out?

I wold def suggest hat they will have to.


----------



## Ranbay (Apr 25, 2016)




----------



## chilango (Apr 25, 2016)

There is a fairly rubbish piece on the BBC making a point about how Trump couldn't logistically manage to kick the Mexicans et al out.

I guess a similar point could be made here.


----------



## weltweit (Apr 25, 2016)

Ranbay said:


>



Dire, both the song and the sentiment


----------



## emanymton (Apr 25, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> A similar situation to what? A made up story about being expelled? I'm not sure the EU can regulate whatever the situation is with china,


Are you saying I made it up, I can't tell? The point is that while talk of sudden mass expulsions is clearly ridiculous, currently non-EU citizens do suddenly find themselves forced to leave. I don't think it's unreasonable to be concerned about EU citizens facing the same issues it if the UK was to leave. If I was from another EU country planning to stay in the UK I would be worried about it. Especially considering the increasingly hostile immigration rules.

To give another example, a friend of a friend was from Belarus and both her and her husband were living in the UK. At one point she was told she had to leave because she didn't earn enough, but her husband was allowed to remain. She was able to get back in a few months later, but is was still a shit situation.

Now I don't think we will leave and even if we do we will probably end up with a treaty not so different from what is in place now. But I don't think these concerns should just be dissmessed out of hand. People will genuinely be worrying that their families may get ripped about.

Eta- I hover between leave and abstain, no why will I vote stay.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 25, 2016)

emanymton said:


> Are you saying I made it up, I can't tell? The point is that while talk of sudden mass expulsions is clearly ridiculous, currently non-EU citizens do suddenly find themselves forced to leave.



I'm stopping this here. Is it true? It's not is it? So why are you saying it and using it to bolster pro-eu views? Or is it  a massive load of not fucking true?


----------



## emanymton (Apr 25, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> I'm stopping this here. Is it true? It's not is it? So why are you saying it and using it to bolster pro-eu views? Or is it  a massive load of not fucking true?


Ermm it's true.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 25, 2016)

emanymton said:


> Ermm it's true.


No, it's not.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 25, 2016)

emanymton said:


> Ermm it's true.


Tel me what you think is true about your claim that NON EU citizens will be forced to leave the UK if the exit vote wins.


----------



## Teaboy (Apr 25, 2016)

I cannot foresee a situation when in the event of leave winning the immigration situation will be much different.  The EU will still exist and will negotiate as one so someone from Latvia will have the same rights as someone from France.  Any trade agreement with the EU would include something which will amount to free movement of people.

For me the whole immigration / borders thing is a massive red herring and its more then annoying that's it playing such a big part in the debate.


----------



## emanymton (Apr 25, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Tel me what you think is true about your claim that NON EU citizens will be forced to leave the UK if the exit vote wins.


I haven't  claimed that? 
I have claimed that currently non-EU workers sometimes get their visa application refused when their current one expires, and as a result have to leave the country, or stay illegally. Are you saying this never happens? 

I therefore don't think it is unreasonable to worry that the same will apply to EU workers if the UK was to leave the EU.


----------



## Teaboy (Apr 25, 2016)

emanymton said:


> I therefore don't think it is unreasonable to worry that the same will apply to EU workers if the UK was to leave the EU.



It won't.  The post-brexit negotiations will include a clause for movement of people.


----------



## emanymton (Apr 25, 2016)

Teaboy said:


> It won't.  The post-brexit negotiations will include a clause for movement of people.


I agree, I think so as well. But I can see why people may worry about it. Plus there is always a chance that it may be changed at some point in the future.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 25, 2016)

emanymton said:


> I haven't  claimed that?
> I have claimed that currently non-EU workers sometimes get their visa application refused when their current one expires, and as a result have to leave the country, or stay illegally. Are you saying this never happens?
> 
> I therefore don't think it is unreasonable to worry that the same will apply to EU workers if the UK was to leave the EU.


I'm sorry - i think we have this toatlly crossed. It's expelling  non-eu workers right now. Today. It's the eu that set up fortress europe. It's no one else. The eu is the hardest face of anti-immigration going. But you know, got some  skills..,


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 25, 2016)

emanymton said:


> I agree, I think so as well. But I can see why people may worry about it. Plus there is always a chance that it may be changed at some point in the future.


There are no people in their calculations - there are labour powers. And the calculation will never be yours.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 25, 2016)

I never understand this - be pro-eu but against fortress europe. And then spend all your time in Calais.


----------



## emanymton (Apr 25, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> I'm sorry - i think we have this toatlly crossed. It's the expelling   non-eu workers right now. Today. It's the wu that set up fortress europe. It's no one else. The eu is the hardest face of anti-immigration going. But you know, got some skills..


I'm not sure where you are comming from. The EU is rabidly anti-immigration from outside the EU. Yes it is. Well from certain areas of the world's anyway. I don't see how that affects  the current discussion?


----------



## emanymton (Apr 25, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> I never understand this - be pro-eu but against fortress europe. And then spend all your time in Calais.


But that is not my position?


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 25, 2016)

emanymton said:


> I'm not sure where you are comming from. The EU is rabidly anti-immigration from outside the EU. Yes it is. Well from certain areas of the world's anyway. I don't see how that affects  the current discussion?


The workers that capital needed in the UK  before are not going to be expelled.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 25, 2016)

emanymton said:


> But that is not my position?


I'm talking about spookfrank and other people who do have that position.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 25, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> A similar situation to what? A made up story about being expelled? I'm not sure the EU can regulate whatever the situation is with china.


I have Bulgarian friends with a similar fear. Not made up -they don't know what could happen neither do you


----------



## emanymton (Apr 25, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> The workers that capital needed in the UK  before are not going to be expelled.


Do you think, the government always acts in the best interests of capital? Or more likely does it always understand what is in the best interests if capital? Their current immigration controls are already very likely harmful to UK capital. 

Just look at the EU debate, it is clearly in the general interest of capital for us to stay. But there are still large elements of the rulling class agitation for a leave vote.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 25, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> I never understand this - be pro-eu but against fortress europe. And then spend all your time in Calais.



Well the alternative is 'Fortress UK' which is more logistically plausible than Fortress Europe beause of the whole 'island' thing and which those of us who have spent time in Calais have seen a glimpse of already.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 25, 2016)

emanymton said:


> Do you think, the government always acts in the best interests of capital? Or more likely does it always understand what is in the best interests if capital? Their current immigration controls are already very likely harmful to UK capital.
> 
> Just look at the EU debate, it is clearly in the general interest of capital for us to stay. But there are still large elements of the rulling class agitation for a leave vote.


Of course they will in this instance.

So, you think capital is split? It isn't.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 25, 2016)

SpookyFrank said:


> Well the alternative is 'Fortress UK' which is more logistically plausible than Fortress Europe beause of the whole 'island' thing and which those of us who have spent time in Calais have seen a glimpse of already.


What's the difference? And all your mates are getting kicked out too aren't they?


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 25, 2016)

youngian said:


> Or 1755, 1815, 1871, 1914. Why is that, what is different about the European interstate system now?


a hundred years or so. If you have to resort to the fear-de-war fetish then you have lost. I mean really, the sort of europe burning situation of huge war is so fantasy land bollocks. Never going to happen. That simply isn't how states play the inter-european games anymore.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 25, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> a hundred years or so. If you have to resort to the fear-de-war fetish then you have lost. I mean really, the sort of europe burning situation of huge war is so fantasy land bollocks. Never going to happen. That simply isn't how states play the inter-european games anymore.


Make him say _hegemony_ again.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 25, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> What's the difference?



To you, probably nothing. To a lot of other people, probably quite a lot. 



> And all your mates are getting kicked out too aren't they?



And I'm wrong to worry about this? Nobody knows what will happen to EU citizens resident in the UK if we leave. That's a lot of people, many of whom have been here a long time and built lives and families here. If you can explain why I shouldn't be concerned about those people then please do so, instead of just making snide remarks.


----------



## Teaboy (Apr 25, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I have Bulgarian friends with a similar fear. Not made up -they don't know what could happen neither do you



No, but we can have a very good guess at it.  We can look at other countries that have trade agreements with the EU such as Norway.  Sure, no one can know 100% what will happen but I cannot see a future where the UK will not have a free movement of people agreement with the EU in one form or another.  And as for EU nationals who are already here well there is zero chance of anyone being kicked out.  I said earlier Bulgarians will have the same rights as the Germans and the French.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 25, 2016)

SpookyFrank said:


> To you, probably nothing. To a lot of other people, probably quite a lot.
> 
> 
> 
> And I'm wrong to worry about this? Nobody knows what will happen to EU citizens resident in the UK if we leave. That's a lot of people, many of whom have been here a long time and built lives and families here. If you can explain why I shouldn't be concerned about those people then please do so, instead of just making snide remarks.


The idea that people who are functional for capital are going to be chucked out is nonsense. Capital does the exact opposite of that.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 25, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> The idea that people who are functional for capital are going to be chucked out is nonsense.



It happens all the time already. African, Chinese, Bangladeshi etc communities are often targetted for immigration raids when there's a deportation flight leaving with some spare seats available. Doesn't matter to the border control lads if you're making money for someone or not, wrong place at the wrong time with the wrong colour skin and you're off the board without passing go.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 25, 2016)

Hey all you people who _want_ to to chuck  out franks  mates as well. Maybe the ones where he meets the fact of real mass expuslsion by the eu. But supports the eu.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 25, 2016)

SpookyFrank said:


> It happens all the time already.


What happens all the time?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 25, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Hey all you people who _want_ to to chuck  out franks  mates as well. Maybe the ones where he meets the fact of real mass expuslsion by the eu. But supports the eu.



And if we leave the EU those mass expulsions will cease I suppose?


----------



## emanymton (Apr 25, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Of course they will in this instance.
> 
> So, you think capital is split? It isn't.


They certainly seem to be.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 25, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> What happens all the time?



Read edited post.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 25, 2016)

Teaboy said:


> And as for EU nationals who are already here well there is zero chance of anyone being kicked out.



Citation needed


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 25, 2016)

SpookyFrank said:


> And if we leave the EU those mass expulsions will cease I suppose?


Think about this - you're arguing for fortress europe to continue to exist.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 25, 2016)

SpookyFrank said:


> And if we leave the EU those mass expulsions will cease I suppose?


What mass expulsions?


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 25, 2016)

emanymton said:


> They certainly seem to be.


Is it frig - 5% want to leave. 95% want to stay.


----------



## gosub (Apr 25, 2016)

weltweit said:


> Dire, both the song and the sentiment


It doesn't even make sense within its own internal narative "we only want to trade with EUrope"-just not buy from companies based within the EU


----------



## emanymton (Apr 25, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Is it frig - 5% want to leave. 95% want to stay.


What's the figure from?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 25, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> What mass expulsions?



Aren't you a little old to be this childish?


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 25, 2016)

emanymton said:


> What's the figure from?


Observation.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 25, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Think about this - you're arguing for fortress europe to continue to exist.



It will continue to exist whatever the referendum result. I'm not even arguing for anything, I'm stating my own position. Other people are allowed to have different positions. But the position that a vote to remain is an endorsement of everything the EU does is reductive and meangingless. As meaningless as saying that if you vote to leave, you're voting for everything Nigel Farage believes.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 25, 2016)

emanymton said:


> What's the figure from?


What's the CBI's view on this?


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 25, 2016)

SpookyFrank said:


> It will continue to exist whatever the referednum result. I'm not even arguing for anything, I'm stating my own position. Other people are allowed to have different positions. But the position that a vote to remain is an endorsement of everything the EU does is reductive and meangingless. As meaningless as saying that if you vote to leave, you're voting for everything Nigel Farage believes.


If you vote to remain you do vote for fortress europe. That's the core thinking behind the EU's future development. Not an incidental thing.


----------



## emanymton (Apr 25, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Observation.


The majority are for remain for sure. But 95%? Michael Geoghegan being leave was a big shock to be. I would have fought a former HSBC CEO, would have absolutely been for remaining but apparently not.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 25, 2016)

emanymton said:


> The majority are for remain for sure. But 95%? Michael Geoghegan being leave was a big shock to be. I would have fought a former HSBC CEO, would have absolutely been for remaining but apparently not.


Yes, 95%. Easy. Not silly PR people. Real capital.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 25, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> If you vote to remain you do vote for fortress europe.



Implying, but not actually saying for fear of ridicule, that voting to leave will somehow help dismantle fortress Europe.


----------



## emanymton (Apr 25, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Yes, 95%. Easy. Not silly PR people. Real capital.


Isn't Geoghegan, a representative of real capital?


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 25, 2016)

emanymton said:


> Isn't Geoghegan, a representative of real capital?


No. And if he is - how mcuh does he represent?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 25, 2016)

European border controls have survived the existence of Switzerland outside the big tent, and Switzerland is at the very heart of mainland Europe. The UK is peripheral and in terms of the logistics of controlling movement of people into the continent from the south and east it is largely irrelevant. Nobody travels to Germany from Syria or Eritrea via the Orkneys. Fortress Europe will continue with or without us. To suggest anything else is disingenuous in the extreme.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 25, 2016)

SpookyFrank said:


> Implying, but not actually saying for fear of ridicule, that voting to leave will somehow help dismantle fortress Europe.


It'll do more to smash it than voting for it.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 25, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> It'll do more to smash it than voting for it.



Good luck with that.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 25, 2016)

SpookyFrank said:


> European border controls have survived the existence of Switzerland outside the big tent, and Switzerland is at the very heart of mainland Europe. The UK is peripheral and in terms of the logistics of controlling movement of people into the continent from the south and east it is largely irrelevant. Nobody travels to Germany from Syria or Eritrea via the Orkneys. Fortress Europe will continue with or without us. To suggest anything else is disingenuous in the extreme.


Excellent. Tell that tale next time that you're in calais. There has been a real change over the last 30 years. It's real and it's driven by the EU.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 25, 2016)

So tonight we have

1)vote eu to smash the anti-immigration plans of the eu (because i like immigration) and 

2)because the eu won't expel people who aren't being expelled.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 25, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Excellent. Tell that tale next time that you're in calais. There has been a real change over the last 30 years. It's real and it's driven by the EU.



And the EU minus Britain will stop all this nasty behviour? They'll take a brexit vote as a clear statement of moral outrage at the treatment of migrants and, in their shame, proceed to start tearing down fences left right and centre?

Even if the EU disintegrated altogther, the end result would be two dozen fortresses instead of one. Ask yourself which of those two scenarios you'd rather find yourself in, if you were a migrant coming to Europe?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 25, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> The workers that capital needed in the UK  before are not going to be expelled.


If the xenophobes get the upper hand shit will happen. Stop deferring to abstracts like 'capital'. This is about real people.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 25, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> So tonight we have
> 
> 1)vote eu to smash the anti-immigration plans of the eu (because i like immigration) and
> 
> 2)because the eu won't expel people who aren't being expelled.



There is no 'vote EU' on the ballot. There is an option for the UK to stay in the EU _given that it already exists and will continue to do so no matter what we do. _This is a pretty clear distinction which you seem to be ignoring on purpose.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 25, 2016)

SpookyFrank said:


> And the EU minus Britain will stop all this nasty behviour? They'll take a brexit vote as a clear statement of moral outrage at the treatment of migrants and, in their shame, proceed to start tearing down fences left right and centre?
> 
> Even if the EU disintegrated altogther, the end result would be two dozen fortresses instead of one. Ask yourself which of those two scenarios you'd rather find yourself in, if you were a migrant coming to Europe?


The EU isn't going to immediately fall apart. They'll find another way to try to do fortress europe. That aim will be significantly hampered by the fatal blow deal by the UK exit. The hard concentration on the needs of refugees rather than anyone else - why?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 25, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> If the xenophobes get the upper hand shit will happen. Stop deferring to abstracts like 'capital'. This is about real people.



Capital isn't split though. The principle party of capital is split, pretty much fifty fifty, but capital himself at home in his volcano lair knows exactly what he's doing. He just hasn't deigned to inform his tory minions.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 25, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> That aim will be significantly hampered by the fatal blow deal by the UK exit.



How?


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 25, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> If the xenophobes get the upper hand shit will happen. Stop deferring to abstracts like 'capital'. This is about real people.


What a very silly thing to say. Capital isn't real? Greece isn't real? My life isn't real? Fuck off.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 25, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> The hard concentration on the needs of refugees rather than anyone else - why?



Please quote the post where I state that I don't care about people other than refugees.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 25, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> What a very silly thing to say. Capital isn't real? Greece isn't real? My life isn't real? Fuck off.



Capital is not a single tangible entity with a single grand plan. This isn't a Terry Pratchett novel, it's the real world.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 25, 2016)

SpookyFrank said:


> There is no 'vote EU' on the ballot. There is an option for the UK to stay in the EU _given that it already exists and will continue to do so no matter what we do. _This is a pretty clear distinction which you seem to be ignoring on purpose.


ER no, vote eu = vote to stay. A vote for the eu.

But let me guess, you'll commit to fighting it from within? Here you'll post a list of successful attempts.


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 25, 2016)

I'd rather be in a position to help those people coming in down on their druthers in a way I hope I never have to experience and I've not had shit easy. I don't see continued EU membership as conducive to that. We literally saw an elected left government bullied into compliance by an unelected set of powers. How is this not sinking in? People will do as they can. But in the electoral game the EU has thrice shown willing to shit on democratic principles. Why keep it with them. The workers rights argument is still annoying me as well. People fought and died to secure rights and to imagine they won't again is to woefully misunderstand anger. Oh noes the 48 hour working week. Which all agencies pressure into waiving anyway.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 25, 2016)

SpookyFrank said:


> Capital is not a single tangible entity with a single grand plan. This isn't a Terry Pratchett novel, it's the real world.


Capital has one single imperative - it has to follow it. It's not a person. Not a individual moral choice.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 25, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> But in the electoral game the EU has thrice shown willing to shit on democratic principles. Why keep it with them.



Because our own government is equally happy to shit all over democracy?


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 25, 2016)

SpookyFrank said:


> Please quote the post where I state that I don't care about people other than refugees.


You only seem to post about that  - nothing else. It's almost the opposite  of internationalism.


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 25, 2016)

SpookyFrank said:


> Because our own government is equally happy to shit all over democracy?


thats a fight we can and have had. Its winnable.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 25, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> If the xenophobes get the upper hand shit will happen. Stop deferring to abstracts like 'capital'. This is about real people.


This is as abstract as it can be - unless you are saying vote to stay.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 25, 2016)

Vote EU to stop my friends false fears an all that and being nasty and like nasty people and not being like nasty and the nasty people.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 25, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> thats a fight we can and have had. Its winnable.



Bearing in mind that a leave vote will strengthen the hand of the most right wing tories and all but hand the keys to the kingdom to one B. Johnson.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 25, 2016)

SpookyFrank said:


> Bearing in mind that a leave vote will strengthen the hand of the most right wing tories and all but hand the keys to the kingdom to one B. Johnson.


I'm so glad we made the poll tax revolt about how it would play out in the tory or labour party. Their internal battles are ded something to concentrate on. Not any independent politics.


----------



## emanymton (Apr 25, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> No. And if he is - how mcuh does he represent?


Well non technicaly at the moment. But until recently he was the chief executive of one of the world's largest Banks. Which is a pretty major bit of capital. 

Anyway to return to my original point. Those who run the system, don't always make the right choice regarding what is in the best interest of capital. Geoghegan is an example of that, as from the perspective of his class position he is wrong to want to leave the EU.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 25, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Vote EU to stop my friends false fears an all that and being nasty and like nasty people and not being like nasty and the nasty people.



It's quicker if you just mash the keyboard at random with your fists. Rest assured the effect will be the same.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 25, 2016)

emanymton said:


> Well non technicaly at the moment. But until recently he was the chief executive of one of the world's largest Banks. Which is a pretty major bit of capital.
> 
> Anyway to return to my original point. Those who run the system, don't always make the right choice regarding what is in the best interest of capital. Geoghegan is an example of that, as from the perspective of his class position he is wrong to want to leave the EU.


You need to work out what is 'wrong' here' or something. Or why a non-representative individual means something.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 25, 2016)

SpookyFrank said:


> It's quicker if you just mash the keyboard at random with your fists. Rest assured the effect will be the same.


You almost did 10 posts arguing a position in a row there frank. Silver.


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 25, 2016)

SpookyFrank said:


> Bearing in mind that a leave vote will strengthen the hand of the most right wing tories and all but hand the keys to the kingdom to one B. Johnson.


oh come on, it wouldn't do that at all. The greatest thing a narrow out vote could do is fuck the tory party so bad they are to riven to achieve any policy decisions or win an elections for two to three generations. Its happened before.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 25, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> I'm so glad we made the poll tax revolt about how it would play out in the tory or labour party. Their internal battles are ded something to concentrate on. Not any independent politics.



You're equating a vote to leave the EU with rioting against government policy now?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 25, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> You almost did 10 posts arguing a position in a row there frank.



You should try it some time.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 25, 2016)

SpookyFrank said:


> You're equating a vote to leave the EU with rioting against government policy now?


I'm suggesting that opposition to a state/capital policy shouldn't rely on how it might play out for the labour or tory party. I shouldn't have to.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 25, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> I'm suggesting that opposition to a state/capital policy shouldn't rely on how it might play out for the labour or tory party. I shouldn't have to.



Opposition to capital is not an option on the ballot. Capital will adapt and repurpose the new status quo as it always does, no matter the outcome.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 25, 2016)

SpookyFrank said:


> Opposition to capital is not an option on the ballot.


There is an option to disorganise capital. But that's not what you were even concerned with. Just a genetic ant-eu = racist blah blah


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 25, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Just a genetic ant-eu = racist blah blah



I've never said that an anti EU position is inherently racist. I haven't even tried to convince anyone else to vote one way or the other, I'm just defending my own position after you were kind enough to name-drop me earlier on.

Anyone claiming that either option will definitely make things better, or definitely stop them getting worse, would need to have something very convincing to back that position up with. Because all I can see are two bad options, two marginally different forms of neoliberal capitalism, and no real solid information on what either one would actually entail. 

I have changed my own mind on this more than once. I have no right to call anyone on either side racist or stupid or anything else.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 25, 2016)

SpookyFrank said:


> I've never said that an anti EU position is inherently racist. I haven't even tried to convince anyone else to vote one way or the other, I'm just defending my own position after you were kind enough to name-drop me earlier on.
> 
> Anyone claiming that either option will definitely make things better, or definitely stop them getting worse, would need to have something very convincing to back that position up with. Because all I can see are two bad options, two marginally different forms of neoliberal capitalism, and no real solid information on what either one would actually entail.
> 
> I have changed my own mind on this more than once. I have no right to call anyone on either side racist or stupid or anything else.


To argue that one position = expulsions of your mates (and you've done this over and over) + opposing that position = racist. That's it there.


----------



## redsquirrel (Apr 25, 2016)

SpookyFrank said:


> There is no 'vote EU' on the ballot. There is an option for the UK to stay in the EU _given that it already exists and will continue to do so no matter what we do. _This is a pretty clear distinction which you seem to be ignoring on purpose.


If the UK does leave then the EU will be in utter crisis. There will be an increased chance of other countries leaving or at least pushing to leave. In the Netherlands an anti-EU referendum vote won, Austria has voted in favour of a potential anti-EU president. The EU will continue to exist post a UK leave but further exits, and ultimately the disintegration, become more likely.


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## ViolentPanda (Apr 25, 2016)

gosub said:


> Austria election: Far-right tops first round of presidential vote - BBC News



Same old same old for Austria, then.


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## laptop (Apr 25, 2016)

FFS. People feeling that their friends and colleagues may be expelled _is_ an issue in the referendum.

If there were a Leave vote and there _weren't expulsions_, many, possibly most, of those who voted to leave would be... very disappointed. It's the point for them - whether they're out-and-out racists or "the island's full up" wibblies. Or both, like the late Mr Goldsmith. 

The argument that the government would never do it in the event of a Leave vote is very much like people believing that the Tories would never be as nasty as they promised to be, because LibDems. Look where that's got us.

Is it because it _is_ an issue that resonates that it attracts such an attack?


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 25, 2016)

laptop said:


> FFS. People feeling that their friends and colleagues may be expelled _is_ an issue in the referendum.
> 
> If there were a Leave vote and there _weren't expulsions_, many, possibly most, of those who voted to leave would be... very disappointed. It's the point for them - whether they're out-and-out racists or "the island's full up" wibblies. Or both, like the late Mr Goldsmith.
> 
> ...


Feel? Of course - it's a big thing on the stay lie. Because liberal  idiots like you want it to be true. And it must be true as as you're lovely internationalists and everyone else is a little englander. It's not. Stop lying about the EU - and stop lying about people lying about the EU.

The rest, grow up - fantasy,


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## Brainaddict (Apr 25, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Yeah, so expulsions. despite now capital or state wanting that to happen. It's bizarre.


I think a very likely scenario on Brexit is that a line gets drawn down the middle of Europe. Westerners get a deal that more or less maintains the status quo, Easterners will likely get a visa system of some sort. Most of those already in the UK (apart from possibly recent arrivals) will get to stay, at least for now.

Do we agree up to that point? Or you really think East Europeans wouldn't start getting treated differently?

So, the next step is more speculative, but we can make some guesses. Those already in the UK will be allowed to stay but there may be conditions. Maybe you aren't entitled to the same benefits as citizens, ever. If you are out of work for more than x number of months, you have to go home. This would require a surveillance system, and quite a substantial one, but we know what they've done to non-EU students, so they won't balk at such a system will they? Then maybe there will be other rules. If you leave the country for more than X amount of time, you can't come back, or you come back on the new visa system with a 2-year max stay or if you have a job offer or something. So no long trips, and if you have to go and look after family for a bit, that's it. Does this seem unlikely to you? And what happens to partners of British citizens in this system? To become British citizens do they have to fulfill the hideous income requirements already imposed on non-EU partners?

It may all seem like speculation, and to some extent it has to be because no-ones talking much about post-Brexit policy. But we know what an immigration system imposed by the right looks like, because we already have it. Just not for EU citizens. Yet. 

I don't think this is scaremongering. I think it would be naive not to see where the exit path is likely to lead. The real grassroots rightwing headbangers are going to be upset that there _aren't_ mass expulsions, so they'll be placated with all this type of awkward conditional stuff (to prove that only hard workers are allowed to stay and so on) which will really fuck with people's lives. Our rulers will manage it so they can still bring in enough cheap labour of course, but also so that they can get rid of people much more easily. 

You're right that the EU borders are hideous, and so are the UK policies towards non-EU migrants. But if more borders get imposed within this? That's just more misery. I think it's a pretty likely outcome.


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## butchersapron (Apr 25, 2016)

Nothing will change. This is the reverse scaremongering.


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## Brainaddict (Apr 25, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Nothing will change. This is the reverse scaremongering.


You think people would put up with that? From the right, all this stuff about the EU compromising democracy and so on is bullshit. At the grassroots the demand to leave the EU is a demand to control migration from Eastern Europe. That's what it's all about*. If the brexit Tories win they'll have to respond to that, or they'll be out on their ear for a decade or so.

*Edit to add: on reflection, this sentence may have been slightly hyperbolic, but it is a very big factor.


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## laptop (Apr 25, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Feel? Of course - it's a big thing on the stay lie. Because liberal  idiots like you want it to be true. And it must be true as as you're lovely internationalists and everyone else is a little englander. It's not. Stop lying about the EU - and stop lying about people lying about the EU.
> ,


What lie?


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 25, 2016)

Brainaddict said:


> You think people would put up with that? From the right, all this stuff about the EU compromising democracy and so on is bullshit. At the grassroots the demand to leave the EU is a demand to control migration from Eastern Europe. That's what it's all about. If the brexit Tories win they'll have to respond to that, or they'll be out on their ear for a decade or so.


Put up with what? They put up with nothing  for decades plus - so yep.

Your post is a mess of rushed things. It, as ever with you pro-eu types, is all about the tories, because that's all you can see. Tories. And you can only see tories because you can only see the w/c as right-wing racists.


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## butchersapron (Apr 25, 2016)

laptop said:


> What lie?


Line


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 25, 2016)

Brainaddict said:


> You're right that the EU borders are hideous, and so are the UK policies towards non-EU migrants. But if more borders get imposed within this? That's just more misery. I think it's a pretty likely outcome.



This, in a nutshell.

If we leave the EU, it will be a tory government which gets to create a new immigration policy. And they will claim the referendum result as a mandate to do all sorts of unpleasant things. They're not going to kick everyone out overnight, but nor are they going to miss the chance to tighten the screws on the 'wrong kind' of migrants. Look at Theresa May's 35,000 pound rule if you want a good example of government thinking on this issue. 

Whatever your intentions, your vote to leave will be used as ammunition by the right because it is the right who are dominating the leave camp and it is the right who are in power.


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## Brainaddict (Apr 25, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Put up with what? They put up with nothing  for decades plus - so yep.
> 
> Your post is a mess of rushed things. It, as ever with you pro-eu types, is all about the tories, because that's all you can see. Tories. And you can only see tories because you can only see the w/c as right-wing racists.


I'm not calling people racists. I don't think the aversion to mass migration is always racist, so don't put words in my mouth. There *is* a strong feeling among many people against the _number _of Eastern Europeans who have come to the UK (which is not the same as disliking them as people). This will be a key driver in the Brexit vote, and will be decisive for a lot of people. If you really don't see that then you're even more removed from the working class than I am with my fancy middle class ways


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 25, 2016)

Brainaddict said:


> I'm not calling people racists. I don't think the aversion to mass migration is always racist, so don't put words in my mouth. There *is* a strong feeling among many people against the _number _of Eastern Europeans who have come to the UK (which is not the same as disliking them as people). This will be a key driver in the Brexit vote, and will be decisive for a lot of people. If you really don't see that then you're even more removed from the working class than I am with my fancy middle class ways


I didn't mention migration - how dare you put your fears about others fears  in my mouth.


----------



## laptop (Apr 25, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> . Stop lying about the EU - and stop lying about people lying about the EU.,



What lie?


----------



## redsquirrel (Apr 25, 2016)

SpookyFrank said:


> Whatever your intentions, your vote to leave will be used as ammunition by the right because it is the right who are dominating the leave camp and it is the right who are in power.


And the stay camp - Cameron, the CBI, Obama, Alan Johnson and Umunna - somehow a vote for then isn't going to be used as ammunition?


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## butchersapron (Apr 25, 2016)

laptop said:


> What lie?


That is the result an a leave vote there will be mass expulsions.


----------



## laptop (Apr 25, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> That is the result an a leave vote there will be mass expulsions.


When you're sober, will you take back the accusation that I lied?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 25, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> And the stay camp - Cameron, the CBI, Obama, Alan Johnson and Umunna - somehow a vote for then isn't going to be used as ammunition?



Of course it will, but it won't provide a mandate for anyone to actively make things worse.

I like the idea of some kind of team involving Obama, Cameron, Johnson and Umunna though. Like a kind of Justice League of people who all hate each other and all have completely different agendas.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 25, 2016)

laptop said:


> When you're sober, will you take back the accusation that I lied?


You lied - your posts are a pathetic suggestion that people who disagree are legally wrong. You patina of legal authority went years ago,


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## butchersapron (Apr 25, 2016)

The left wing people here supporting the eu were never left wing - just middle class eu progressives. Bottles outside  vs cans outside.


----------



## redsquirrel (Apr 25, 2016)

SpookyFrank said:


> Of course it will, but it won't provide a mandate for anyone to actively make things worse.


So a vote that upsets capital, the UK government, the EU and the Tory party provides a mandate for people to make things worse but a vote which props up the support for those groups doesn't. Sorry I find this absolute nonsense.

I mean ignoring the wider question a (decent) Remain win clearly gives a mandate to the Cameron/Osbourne group.


----------



## Brainaddict (Apr 25, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> The left wing people here supporting the eu were never left wing - just middle class eu progressives. Bottles outside  vs cans outside.


There's a world of difference between 'supporting the EU', and not wanting to vote for exit at this referendum. Christ, you can argue on some days. This is not one of those days.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 25, 2016)

Brainaddict said:


> There's a world of difference between 'supporting the EU', and not wanting to vote for exit at this referendum. Christ, you can argue on some days. This is not one of those days.


There is not other option - and you've argued for the eu. Not a better option. People like you will never make that final hurdle. Backing into the labour party with you.


----------



## laptop (Apr 25, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> You lied - your posts are a pathetic suggestion that people who disagree are legally wrong. You patina of legal authority went years ago,



Where did I say anything about people being legally wrong?

Please specify what lie I am supposed to have told.


----------



## Brainaddict (Apr 25, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> So a vote that upsets capital, the UK government, the EU and the Tory party provides a mandate for people to make things worse but a vote which props up the support for those groups doesn't. Sorry I find this absolute nonsense.


I think the degree to which greater controls on Eastern European migration would upset capital is being overstated here by several people. (a) Spain, Portugal, Ireland and Greece will be in the 'Western European' group that will not get controlled. Plenty of labour there. (b) the flow of labour from Eastern Europe will not be stopped. It will just be slightly strangulated. 

I also think there are other factors here, like politicians loving an excuse to introduce control systems. I don't subscribe to the idea that the ruling class always does things rationally in the interests of capital. Immigration policy is a case where they often haven't - the controls on non-EU students at the moment are shit for capital as well as the students, but no-one seems to care.


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## butchersapron (Apr 25, 2016)

Can't break with labour. can't break with europe, can't break with the king, can't break with the tsar

We must work with labour, europe, the king, the tsar


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## butchersapron (Apr 25, 2016)

laptop said:


> Where did I say anything about people being legally wrong?
> 
> Please specify what lie I am supposed to have told.


Certainly - you supported the idea that there were would be mass expulsions if leave won the vote. You know that this is untrue. In fact.


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## laptop (Apr 25, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Certainly - you supported the idea that there were would be mass expulsions if leave won the vote. You know that this is untrue. In fact.



You haven't read what I posted.

I made a very general prediction. I did not refer to "mass expulsions".

Bluestreak sketched some ways in which it could pan out, which seem plausible to me.

It's quite hard for a prediction to be a lie. The only relevant case would be if I said "Butchers will flounce tomorrow" when you have told me, and I have concealed, that you will not.

Has anyone in a position of power told you that there will be no policy of expelling anyone?

Can we please have the tape/text, pretty please? It would rather affect the campaign.


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## butchersapron (Apr 25, 2016)

laptop said:


> You haven't read what I posted.
> 
> I made a very general prediction. I did not refer to "mass expulsions".
> 
> ...


It's easy for a prediction to be true. It's easy for them not to be true.. 

To argue that something that you know  not be true is true is a lie. It's not a prediction. That's what you did with this mass expulsion stuff.


----------



## J Ed (Apr 25, 2016)

laptop said:


> FFS. People feeling that their friends and colleagues may be expelled _is_ an issue in the referendum.
> 
> If there were a Leave vote and there _weren't expulsions_, many, possibly most, of those who voted to leave would be... very disappointed. It's the point for them - whether they're out-and-out racists or "the island's full up" wibblies. Or both, like the late Mr Goldsmith.
> 
> ...



This would never happen, not in a million years. If expulsions of people from EU member states started then the economy and society would collapse.

I've heard more than a few people repeat this lie and it's irresponsible because it has scared a lot of people for no good reason. Please stop.


----------



## laptop (Apr 25, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> It's easy for a prediction to be true. It's easy for them not to be true..
> 
> To argue that something that you know  not be true is true is a lie. It's not a prediction. That's what you did with this mass expulsion stuff.



Eh? You're not making sense.

It seems that you _vaguely associated_ me with an idea - largely of your own construction - that someone had claimed that an exit vote would lead to "mass expulsions".

You didn't like this. It has you deeply rattled. You asserted that I had lied. That was your lie.


----------



## laptop (Apr 25, 2016)

J Ed said:


> This would never happen, not in a million years. If expulsions of people from EU member states started then the economy and society would collapse.
> 
> I've heard more than a few people repeat this lie and it's irresponsible because it has scared a lot of people for no good reason. Please stop.



_What _would never happen? Are you saying that "If there were a Leave vote and there _weren't expulsions_, many, possibly most, of those who voted to leave would *NOT* be... very disappointed."


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## butchersapron (Apr 25, 2016)

laptop said:


> Eh? You're not making sense.
> 
> It seems that you _vaguely associated_ me with an idea - largely of your own construction - that someone had claimed that an exit vote would lead to "mass expulsions".
> 
> You didn't like this. You asserted that I had lied. That was your lie.


Bollocks - you called me and others racists. Now, what?


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 25, 2016)

laptop said:


> _What _would never happen? Are you saying that "If there were a Leave vote and there _weren't expulsions_, many, possibly most, of those who voted to leave would *NOT* be... very disappointed."


I think you've done yourself here.

Clown. And i think you've confirmed why people like me need to keep on the backs of people like you.


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## laptop (Apr 25, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Bollocks - you called me and others racists. Now, what?



No I didn't. I very clearly wrote about "many or most" of those who voted for exit - those who would be disappointed if there weren't expulsions. 

It is clear that you are not among those who would be thus disappointed.

Go to sleep.


----------



## J Ed (Apr 25, 2016)

laptop said:


> _What _would never happen? Are you saying that "If there were a Leave vote and there _weren't expulsions_, many, possibly most, of those who voted to leave would *NOT* be... very disappointed."



I don't really see what that has to do with anything whatsoever but I've seen pro-EU people tell people from France to their faces that they risk being kicked out of the country, this has caused genuine fear and it needs to stop.


----------



## J Ed (Apr 25, 2016)

Also where is the evidence that most or a large minority of the people who want to vote to leave the EU expect there to be mass expulsions of people from EU member states?


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 25, 2016)

laptop said:


> No I didn't. I very clearly wrote about "many or most" of those who voted for exit - those who would be disappointed if there weren't expulsions.
> 
> It is clear that you are not among those who would be thus disappointed.
> 
> Go to sleep.


You just did it again.

You smear and refuse  to openly say what you mean. It's pretty clear. _They're the racists. Don't vote for or be racists._


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 25, 2016)

J Ed said:


> Also where is the evidence that most or a large minority of the people who want to vote to leave the EU expect there to be mass expulsions of people from EU member states?


It's not they want it, it's just that it's going to happen. Inevitably. If you vote leave.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 25, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> The left wing people here supporting the eu were never left wing - just middle class eu progressives. Bottles outside  vs cans outside.


Disgusting . Fuck you.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 25, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Disgusting . Fuck you.


The eu the only barrier to Europe-wide war. Go away.


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## Humberto (Apr 26, 2016)

More freedom or less? Does it in your honest opinion help or hinder? That seems to be it. Bremain accusing Brexit of all sorts. That the right would take the the Left to the cleaners supposedly. Others chiming in to confuse what is surely a simple and easy question and choice. As others have said, there's no evidence for the scaremongering. Verify it please, not faulty speculation.

I don't read the papers only the internet so may well have it wrong but immigration does not seem to be the central issue in the political/media discourse in any case. Where is this supposed backlash against immigration going to come from?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 26, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> The eu the only barrier to Europe-wide war. Go away.


Simplistic mischaracterisation of what others say. Horrible attempt to make this a polarised either a or b. Desperate.


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## butchersapron (Apr 26, 2016)

***it didn't happen - hear me roar oh the injustice***


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## butchersapron (Apr 26, 2016)

it is a or b.

You prefer a but think your shit don't stink.


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## youngian (Apr 26, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> a hundred years or so. If you have to resort to the fear-de-war fetish then you have lost. I mean really, the sort of europe burning situation of huge war is so fantasy land bollocks. Never going to happen. That simply isn't how states play the inter-european games anymore.


 I know they don't which is my point. Every European generation has declared peace in our time it's only in the post-war years that has made major European warfare fantasy land bollocks.


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## weltweit (Apr 26, 2016)

I am not so sure about war not being an issue today. Just because at the moment France and Germany are allies does not hide the fact that in my father's lifetime there was a world war which started here in Europe. I think the ties between nations in the EU is something that is likely to prevent such a war from breaking out while they exist, and because I think that, I think we too should be in.

I am not saying Britain leaving is going to cause a war, I am saying that the EU is a movement which is likely to prevent war and as such we should be in it.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 26, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Can't break with labour. can't break with europe, can't break with the king, can't break with the tsar



You can't dismantle the apparatus of the state by voting in a referendum. If you could, they wouldn't be holding the referendum in the first place.

This conflation of a leave vote with the poll tax riots, the civil war, the Russian revolution and whatever else is looking increasingly ridiculous. You are voting in an election they set up to serve their own interests. You're not cutting the king's head off. You're not even spitting in his general direction.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 26, 2016)

Humberto said:


> I don't read the papers only the internet so may well have it wrong but immigration does not seem to be the central issue in the political/media discourse in any case. Where is this supposed backlash against immigration going to come from?



You really don't read the papers do you? The backlash has already begun, hence recent reductions in benefit entitlements for EU citizens in the UK and the new rule preventing people from bringing their spouse here from overseas unless they earn a middle-class wage. On Brenda's birthday Cameron sneaked out the news that immigration tribunals are going to be made about ten times more expensive.

So far it's only salami-slicing type stuff (although still pretty horrible if you're on the receiving end of it) but the political will and the public support for it is there already. A leave vote could give the people responsible a stronger hand and an opportunity to change policies on a much bigger scale.


----------



## gosub (Apr 26, 2016)

weltweit said:


> I am not so sure about war not being an issue today. Just because at the moment France and Germany are allies does not hide the fact that in my father's lifetime there was a world war which started here in Europe. I think the ties between nations in the EU is something that is likely to prevent such a war from breaking out while they exist, and because I think that, I think we too should be in.
> 
> I am not saying Britain leaving is going to cause a war, I am saying that the EU is a movement which is likely to prevent war and as such we should be in it.



Coz any elected leader who starts taking their country in a direction the EU doesn't like is removed.


(Wars through expanding towards unfreindly neighbours or through over-integration may still be available)


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 26, 2016)

J Ed said:


> Also where is the evidence that most or a large minority of the people who want to vote to leave the EU expect there to be mass expulsions of people from EU member states?



There's no evidence. There's a near total lack of solid information on what would happen after a leave vote. What there is is UKIP and the tory right who have for years been talking about migration from EU countries (particularly Poland and the east) as though leaving the EU would resolve this problem. They talk about taking back control of our borders, which while meaningless in itself certainly implies that something will be done about the people who are already here and who have already been labelled as undesirable.

So many of the leave voters will expect, not mass expulsions, but some kind of pressure exerted on certain migrants to return to their countries of origin. Presumably any such pressure would be economic, like a removal of benefit entitlements which forced the working class to leave while allowing the middle class to stay. This will be a filip to unscrupulous employers who are already doing very well by exploiting eastern europeans and who can only benefit from their workers becoming even more disenfranchised. 

Why are you only talking about migrants Frank? Because they are the people most likely to be adversely affected.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 26, 2016)

J Ed said:


> This would never happen, not in a million years. If expulsions of people from EU member states started then the economy and society would collapse.
> 
> I've heard more than a few people repeat this lie and it's irresponsible because it has scared a lot of people for no good reason. Please stop.



*Technically* expulsions could happen - although only with due process and/or sweeping legislative change - but as you say, economically and socially such expulsions would harm the states far more than the (tenuous) political gains would help, so won't happen.

In terms of *individual* expulsions, that already happens for a plethora of - fair or unfair - reasons, and given governance by states, always will.


----------



## Brainaddict (Apr 26, 2016)

J Ed said:


> Also where is the evidence that most or a large minority of the people who want to vote to leave the EU expect there to be mass expulsions of people from EU member states?


I guess I don't have hard evidence I admit - more anecdotal. Like the pro-exit colleague at my work wondering aloud what will happen to the EU citizens in the workplace after an exit, as though expecting some big expulsion. And people giving their reasons to vote for exit as 'Britain is full up'.

I admit I don't have figures for it or anything. At the same time I am astonished, actually sitting here in disbelief, that people on this thread are arguing that exit wouldn't make any difference to our border regime. 'We need to have control of our borders' is half the reason for UKIPs existence, and the Tory movement on this is to a large degree about suppressing UKIP by appeasing those who vote for them. The direction of travel here is very clear. An exit vote will almost certainly mean the current right wing border regime being extended to East European countries, not to totally exclude them but to impose visa controls in order to slow the flow of people. It will be carefully balanced so that businesses can still find cheap workers, while there will also be enough stories of people being chucked out the country to keep most of the UKIP voters happy, so transferring their votes to the Tory party and making UKIP irrelevant. I'm pretty sure this is the plan.

As it happens, I don't think enough people will vote to leave, but the idea we would retain open borders to all EU citizens if we did leave is so unlikely I'd willingly bet money against it.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 26, 2016)

weltweit said:


> I am not so sure about war not being an issue today. Just because at the moment France and Germany are allies does not hide the fact that in my father's lifetime there was a world war which started here in Europe. I think the ties between nations in the EU is something that is likely to prevent such a war from breaking out while they exist, and because I think that, I think we too should be in.
> 
> I am not saying Britain leaving is going to cause a war, I am saying that the EU is a movement which is likely to prevent war and as such we should be in it.



"War is politics by other means", to paraphrase von Clausewitz. That being the case, we can expect the economic warfare inspired by the EU and other large trade blocs to continue wreaking neoliberal havoc and seeding proxy wars on Europe's borders.

Just because *world* war or Europe-wide war is improbable, that doesn't mean that armed conflicts won't happen, and as resources in EU states get scarcer (there's been sabre-rattling over rates of extraction from the Danube for decades now, for example), then armed conflict short of war becomes more likely.


----------



## gosub (Apr 26, 2016)

Brainaddict said:


> I guess I don't have hard evidence I admit - more anecdotal. Like the pro-exit colleague at my work wondering aloud what will happen to the EU citizens in the workplace after an exit, as though expecting some big expulsion. And people giving their reasons to vote for exit as 'Britain is full up'.
> 
> I admit I don't have figures for it or anything. At the same time I am astonished, actually sitting here in disbelief, that people on this thread are arguing that exit wouldn't make any difference to our border regime. 'We need to have control of our borders' is half the reason for UKIPs existence, and the Tory movement on this is to a large degree about suppressing UKIP by appeasing those who vote for them. The direction of travel here is very clear. An exit vote will almost certainly mean the current right wing border regime being extended to East European countries, not to totally exclude them but to impose visa controls in order to slow the flow of people. It will be carefully balanced so that businesses can still find cheap workers, while there will also be enough stories of people being chucked out the country to keep most of the UKIP voters happy, so transferring their votes to the Tory party and making UKIP irrelevant. I'm pretty sure this is the plan.
> 
> As it happens, I don't think enough people will vote to leave, but the idea we would retain open borders to all EU citizens if we did leave is so unlikely I'd willingly bet money against it.



Bollocks.
The Government (for it is they that negotiate the new arrangement) isn't going to completely ignore the views of what would still be a significant minority that still favoured membership especially as it would have to get the deal through Parliament (were Leavers are completely outnumbered UKIP has 1 MP ffs) .  Leave means still being in the Single Market and a load of people who thought the referendum was about immigration feeling cheated


----------



## bimble (Apr 26, 2016)

This is reassuring, for what its worth: 
"Norway and Switzerland have far higher levels of EU immigration than the UK as a proportion of their populations. These countries do operate under slightly different legal arrangements to the UK when it comes to EU migration. In practice, though, they are fully integrated into the EU’s free movement rules, and the EU has repeatedly made it clear that free movement of people is the price that must be paid for access to the single market.."
EU immigration: Norway and Switzerland*


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Apr 26, 2016)

Both outcomes shit. Abstain.
If I was forced to choose by a gun to the head it'd be exit. How the left can say the EU is progressive given what they're doing to Greece is appalling. It's the status quo and less democratic than being out.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Apr 26, 2016)

Plus I don't buy an out vote being equated with being anti immigration. Why would Capital, either British or join hands European, want rid of the free movement of labour? The UKIP supporters see it as this but they're in for a rude awakening to Capital's needs being different to their desires.


----------



## bimble (Apr 26, 2016)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Plus I don't buy an out vote being equated with being anti immigration. Why would Capital, either British or join hands European, want rid of the free movement of labour? The UKIP supporters see it as this but they're in for a rude awakening to Capital's needs being different to their desires.



Yeah ok, the vast majority of brexiters will probably be disappointed if we do leave and then fail to pull up the drawbridge reclaim Britain for the Brits etc but .. so what / then what?
I still don't understand what people here think will actually get better as a result of leaving. All I can see is the idea that lining up to vote out is somehow a revolutionary act, a way of sticking it to the man, even though the number of people who'll vote that way cos they want to help 'disorganise Capital' is probably about 83, in total.


----------



## Humberto (Apr 27, 2016)

SpookyFrank said:


> You really don't read the papers do you? The backlash has already begun, hence recent reductions in benefit entitlements for EU citizens in the UK and the new rule preventing people from bringing their spouse here from overseas unless they earn a middle-class wage. On Brenda's birthday Cameron sneaked out the news that immigration tribunals are going to be made about ten times more expensive.
> 
> So far it's only salami-slicing type stuff (although still pretty horrible if you're on the receiving end of it) but the political will and the public support for it is there already. A leave vote could give the people responsible a stronger hand and an opportunity to change policies on a much bigger scale.



Butchers made a good point which I will reiterate, thats worrying about what the Tories will want to do never mind what they will be allowed to do by their paymasters. If anything the ruling class are _exploiting_ foreign labour and foreign nationals. Why would they want or allow that to end? The balance is in their favour.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Apr 27, 2016)

bimble said:


> Yeah ok, the vast majority of brexiters will probably be disappointed if we do leave and then fail to pull up the drawbridge reclaim Britain for the Brits etc but .. so what / then what?
> I still don't understand what people here think will actually get better as a result of leaving. All I can see is the idea that lining up to vote out is somehow a revolutionary act, a way of sticking it to the man, even though the number of people who'll vote that way cos they want to help 'disorganise Capital' is probably about 83, in total.



It's unpalatable as the Tories are in power and handing them more power is suicidal. However, if someone was in power who you supported, you'd find the EU's undemocratic blocking of policies that you agree with aggravating and would likely be arguing the opposite.


----------



## bimble (Apr 27, 2016)

Magnus McGinty said:


> if someone was in power who you supported, you'd find the EU's undemocratic blocking of policies that you agree with aggravating and would likely be arguing the opposite.


Seriously?  I can't really imagine this scenario, its never arisen in my lifetime anyway. Look at the political situation in this country, and how it voted in the last election.
Personally I can't imagine wanting to vote out simply because (right or wrong) any campaign that looks like nationalism and smells like nationalism scares the shit out of me. Which may have to do with how my family has no english in it, we're a muddle of nationalities, mostly eastern europeans, so even though I was born here I don't feel remotely British if that makes sense.


----------



## andysays (Apr 27, 2016)

bimble said:


> Seriously?  I can't really imagine this scenario, its never arisen in my lifetime anyway. Look at the political situation in this country, and how it voted in the last election.
> Personally I can't imagine wanting to vote out simply because (right or wrong) any campaign that looks like nationalism and smells like nationalism scares the shit out of me. Which may have to do with how my family has no english in it, we're a muddle of nationalities, mostly eastern europeans, so even though I was born here I don't feel remotely British if that makes sense.



This says more about your (lack of) imagination and knowledge of current and historical events than anything else.

It's true that the mainstream "Leave" campaign has a strong element of British nationalism running through it, but the mainstream "Stay" campaign also has a strong element of "what's best for Britain/Europe" nationalism, although this is dressed up pseudo-neutrally as "what's best for the economy" as if what's best for the capitalist economy is somehow best for everyone in Britain/Europe, regardless of class.

There are also reasons for leaving (rehearsed _ad infinitum_ on various threads) which have nothing to do with nationalism of any sort, so the idea that this issue can all be reduced to nasty British nationalists wanting to get out versus nice internationalists wanting to stay which has permeated much of the debate here is naive and simplistic nonsense.


----------



## Greebozz (Apr 27, 2016)

bimble said:


> Seriously?  I can't really imagine this scenario, its never arisen in my lifetime anyway. Look at the political situation in this country, and how it voted in the last election.
> Personally I can't imagine wanting to vote out simply because (right or wrong) any campaign that looks like nationalism and smells like nationalism scares the shit out of me. Which may have to do with how my family has no english in it, we're a muddle of nationalities, mostly eastern europeans, so even though I was born here I don't feel remotely British if that makes sense.


That's the whole point really, it's a bit like a an American saying that they don't feel very Native American.  My family tree has been traced back 1000 years in the UK I'm very interested in British history, I'm very fond of this country and its heritage and yes I am aware that it has done much wrong in the past.

My concern is the feeling that Britain is just seen as a place to be colonised, fresh ground to create a little part of the world which is the same as where people came from.  I view people has been equally valuable whatever their race heritage religion etc.

But there is an aspect of survival of the fittest, for populations to become outnumbered and out bred.  It does sadden me if Britain loses its identity.  I realise I'm opening up myself to obvious potshots but it's all to do with numbers.  I never had any issue whatsoever and love the diversity of people in this country.  But it does concern me with Europe when it appears the floodgates open.  There's a sense that there's loads of adventurers out for their own benefit.  Britain means nothing to them in terms of heritage.  And Moslem power on the rise, Hal al meat everywhere, it's a completely alien culture which is an ever-growing power base.

I better stop here as ViolentPanda and others are probably already having a fit.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 27, 2016)

Greebozz said:


> But there is an aspect of survival of the fittest, for populations to become outnumbered and out bred.  It does sadden me if Britain loses its identity.  I realise I'm opening up myself to obvious potshots but it's all to do with numbers.  I never had any issue whatsoever and love the diversity of people in this country.  But it does concern me with Europe when it appears the floodgates open.  There's a sense that there's loads of adventurers out for their own benefit.  Britain means nothing to them in terms of heritage.  And Moslem power on the rise, Hal al meat everywhere, it's a completely alien culture which is an ever-growing power base.



Lucky the British have never bowled up in anyone else's lands disregarding people's heritage and adventuring for their own benefit. Because if they had, what you're saying here would start to look like a load of ahistorical racist drivel.



> I view people has been equally valuable whatever their race heritage religion etc.



BUT I don't want any of them here. They're much more valuable at home where I don't have to look at them.


----------



## bimble (Apr 27, 2016)

Greebozz said:


> it's a bit like an American saying that they don't feel very Native American.


oh dear.


----------



## youngian (Apr 27, 2016)

Economy and secuirty are top concerns for the referendum but immigration still figures highly, especially among voters the Tories have lost to UKIP.


SpookyFrank said:


> There's no evidence. There's a near total lack of solid information on what would happen after a leave vote. What there is is UKIP and the tory right who have for years been talking about migration from EU countries (particularly Poland and the east) as though leaving the EU would resolve this problem.
> Why are you only talking about migrants Frank? Because they are the people most likely to be adversely affected.


I've yet to hear a Brexiter complain about the non-EU immigration system to the UK which accounts for up to 70% of migrants to the UK. I assume they are happy with it and would seek to extend the right of employers to scour the globe for cabbage packers at the cheapest rate without any pesky EU red tape like holiday pay and a national living wage. EU freedom of movement is an issue Farage stumbled upon and was crucial to remoulding UKIP from a fringe free market party (enthusiastic about the economic advantages of immigration) to a far right populist party of identity politics.


----------



## andysays (Apr 27, 2016)

Greebozz said:


> ...My family tree has been traced back 1000 years in the UK I'm very interested in British history... ...Britain is just seen as a place to be colonised... ...populations to become outnumbered and out bred.  It does sadden me if Britain loses its identity... ...it's all to do with numbers...  ...the floodgates open...  ...Britain means nothing to them in terms of heritage...  ...Moslem power on the rise, Hal al meat everywhere... ...a completely alien culture which is an ever-growing power base...



This is simply "white genocide" nonsense, nothing more or less


----------



## tim (Apr 27, 2016)

Greebozz said:


> That's the whole point really, it's a bit like a an American saying that they don't feel very Native American.  My family tree has been traced back 1000 years in the UK I'm very interested in British history, I'm very fond of this country and its heritage and yes I am aware that it has done much wrong in the past.
> 
> My concern is the feeling that Britain is just seen as a place to be colonised, fresh ground to create a little part of the world which is the same as where people came from.  I view people has been equally valuable whatever their race heritage religion etc.
> 
> ...



What a pile of racist drivel. 

Have you traced your ancestry back on all lines of your family tree? You've got millions of ancestors including plenty who've migrated here. So you'll find yourself a little less pure Aryan/Anglosaxon than you might like to think you are.

I'm impressed, however, that you've managed to conflate a Muslim method of animal slaughter and the Israeli airline, a fusion of religious bigotries


----------



## steeplejack (Apr 27, 2016)

I'm for Brexit, although there are some very uncomfortable bedfellows in the campaign. If we were voting on personalities I suspect there'd be a 2% turnout and most people would want both sides to lose.

I really think we need to pull back control to the UK to have any chance of re-invigorating democracy at as local a level as possible.

anyone who still has ideas that the EU is anything other than an utterly malign, lying, undemocratic organisation with few if any redeeming features needs to have a word with themselves.


----------



## Greebozz (Apr 27, 2016)

tim said:


> What a pile of racist drivel.
> 
> Have you traced your ancestry back on all lines of your family tree? You've got millions of ancestors including plenty who've migrated here. So you'll find yourself a little less pure Aryan/Anglosaxon than you might like to think you are.
> 
> I'm impressed, however, that you've managed to conflate a Muslim method of animal slaughter and the Israeli airline, a fusion of religious bigotries


I'm really fed up with the liberal moral police.  If you apply the same principles would castigate the Tibetan people for complaining about Chinese immigration.  During the Second World War the French would be lectured about their despicable prejudice towards Germans.

I know what I say comes over all wrong but the only other option I have is to shut up about how I feel.  If you look through my past posts, there is no hint of me being accused of being a racist or a bigot it's only since recent mass immigration and the endless lunacy of extreme Islam that it's been a concern.  Anyone accusing me of being a racist is a complete fucking half wit.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Apr 27, 2016)

I'm still Brundecided. :/


----------



## gosub (Apr 27, 2016)

youngian said:


> Economy and secuirty are top concerns for the referendum but immigration still figures highly, especially among voters the Tories have lost to UKIP.
> 
> I've yet to hear a Brexiter complain about the non-EU immigration system to the UK which accounts for up to 70% of migrants to the UK. I assume they are happy with it and would seek to extend the right of employers to scour the globe for cabbage packers at the cheapest rate without any pesky EU red tape like holiday pay and a national living wage. EU freedom of movement is an issue Farage stumbled upon and was crucial to remoulding UKIP from a fringe free market party (enthusiastic about the economic advantages of immigration) to a far right populist party of identity politics.



Alright then, firstly EU migration now accounts for over 50% annually.  But I'm not happy with the system, the way things are structured non EU immigrants end up as the whipping boy when immigration is mentioned as that's the only area where action can be taken.  What are we up to now? £35k (I think), which is restricting a lot more than cabbage pickers.   At the first Spectator debate Clegg had the nerve to say non EU weren't discriminated against (I say nerve that man will say anything).  I've also heard some horror stories from Chinese mate married to another mate, about the Chinese that she works with that are over here down to quota system (rather than her,by marriage) - the company who has the visas to issue under the quota system effectively using to exploit their chinese staff - don't like it then go home and we can replace you.

But the whole thing isn't about immigration for me, and if I'm really honest I'm pissed off - been after a referendum for 20 years, and having got one, I am beyond unimpressed with the Out campaign, a gnawing doubt that they would quite happily lose but use their large vote to push for subsequent pan EU pressure on immigration -gnawing to the point where I might not vote.


----------



## Brainaddict (Apr 27, 2016)

Greebozz said:


> That's the whole point really, it's a bit like a an American saying that they don't feel very Native American.  My family tree has been traced back 1000 years in the UK I'm very interested in British history, I'm very fond of this country and its heritage and yes I am aware that it has done much wrong in the past.
> 
> My concern is the feeling that Britain is just seen as a place to be colonised, fresh ground to create a little part of the world which is the same as where people came from.  I view people has been equally valuable whatever their race heritage religion etc.
> 
> ...


Your racist meanderings don't even make sense. The large number of muslims in the UK are almost nothing to do with the EU - they largely come from outside the EU. Nor has the UK , while in the EU, even let in many Syrian refugees (shamefully, though I'm sure we won't agree on that).

It's also amazing that you manage to talk about the 'colonisation' of the UK without talking about why it is the UK is such an attractive prospect to people (hint: actual colonisation). It's not just about 'having done wrong' in the past, it's about the real-world consequences of that wrong, that still haunts nearly every country in the world.

I like the way you manage to dismiss the responses to you beforehand as 'potshots'. This isn't a potshot, it's a kick up your arse. You are spouting racist bilge which is massively ignorant and contradictory and that you didn't even have the ability to come up with yourself. You are following someone else's racist script. As much as despising you for your racism, I look down on you for your inability to apply even the slightest critical thinking to what you have been read or told.


----------



## Greebozz (Apr 27, 2016)

Brainaddict said:


> Your racist meanderings don't even make sense. The large number of muslims in the UK are almost nothing to do with the EU - they largely come from outside the EU. Nor has the UK , while in the EU, even let in many Syrian refugees (shamefully, though I'm sure we won't agree on that).
> 
> It's also amazing that you manage to talk about the 'colonisation' of the UK without talking about why it is the UK is such an attractive prospect to people (hint: actual colonisation). It's not just about 'having done wrong' in the past, it's about the real-world consequences of that wrong, that still haunts nearly every country in the world.
> 
> I like the way you manage to dismiss the responses to you beforehand as 'potshots'. This isn't a potshot, it's a kick up your arse. You are spouting racist bilge which is massively ignorant and contradictory and that you didn't even have the ability to come up with yourself. You are following someone else's racist script. As much as despising you for your racism, I look down on you for your inability to apply even the slightest critical thinking to what you have been read or told.


I give up, I won't have a conversation with anyone calling me a racist, it is a slander and a lie.  There is nothing more to be said by me.


----------



## andysays (Apr 27, 2016)

Greebozz said:


> I'm really fed up with the liberal moral police.  *If you apply the same principles would castigate the Tibetan people for complaining about Chinese immigration.  During the Second World War the French would be lectured about their despicable prejudice towards Germans*.
> 
> I know what I say comes over all wrong but the only other option I have is to shut up about how I feel.  If you look through my past posts, there is no hint of me being accused of being a racist or a bigot it's only since recent mass immigration and the endless lunacy of extreme Islam that it's been a concern.  Anyone accusing me of being a racist is a complete fucking half wit.



Ha, ha, ha. Posts like this simply reveal you ever more plainly as spouting ever more hysterical bollocks. There's hints and far more than hints of you being a racist bigot as far back as I can remember, and the veil slips further with every clumsy protest that it's simply the "liberal moral police" who are the issue

You're fooling no one, except perhaps yourself.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 27, 2016)

Greebozz said:


> That's the whole point really, it's a bit like a an American saying that they don't feel very Native American.  My family tree has been traced back 1000 years in the UK I'm very interested in British history, I'm very fond of this country and its heritage and yes I am aware that it has done much wrong in the past.



It's pretty much impossible to trace your ancestry back 1,000 years, unless descended from the aristocratic end of the Norman invaders of 11th century Britain. 



> My concern is the feeling that Britain is just seen as a place to be colonised, fresh ground to create a little part of the world which is the same as where people came from.  I view people has been equally valuable whatever their race heritage religion etc.
> 
> But there is an aspect of survival of the fittest, for populations to become outnumbered and out bred.



Oh dear.Another person who thinks that Spencer and Huxley's interpretation of Darwin's idea has any value.
When Darwin spoke of "the strongest" surviving, he wasn't talking about intra-species competition. If you've read "On the Origins of the Species", you'd know that he was talking about how inheritance tends to "weed out" non-useful traits, and how the most *flexible* species win out, not the most fertile.



> It does sadden me if Britain loses its identity.  I realise I'm opening up myself to obvious potshots but it's all to do with numbers.



*IF* it is "all to do with numbers", then once again your have no case. Most statisticians have been noting for decades that worldwide fertility rates are approaching a static rate - by 2050 in most calculations. Declining human fertility across the planet is also a phenomenon that's been being observed for decades.

Your numbers game is merely another justification for prejudice.



> I never had any issue whatsoever and love the diversity of people in this country.  But it does concern me with Europe when it appears the floodgates open.  There's a sense that there's loads of adventurers out for their own benefit.  Britain means nothing to them in terms of heritage.  And Moslem power on the rise, Hal al meat everywhere, it's a completely alien culture which is an ever-growing power base.



For someone who claims to "love the diversity of people in this country", you voice an awful lot of anti-diversity tropes. Much the same excrement as the likes of the NF, BM and BNP spouted in their more intelligent moments.



> I better stop here as ViolentPanda and others are probably already having a fit.



The only thing you produce in me is weary contempt.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 27, 2016)

Greebozz said:


> I'm really fed up with the liberal moral police.  If you apply the same principles would castigate the Tibetan people for complaining about Chinese immigration.  During the Second World War the French would be lectured about their despicable prejudice towards Germans.
> 
> I know what I say comes over all wrong but the only other option I have is to shut up about how I feel.  If you look through my past posts, there is no hint of me being accused of being a racist or a bigot it's only since recent mass immigration and the endless lunacy of extreme Islam that it's been a concern.  Anyone accusing me of being a racist is a complete fucking half wit.



The Chinese *invaded* Tibet militarily, and then started seeding settlements.To compare that with immigration is the work of a racist moron.


----------



## Brainaddict (Apr 27, 2016)

Greebozz said:


> I give up, I won't have a conversation with anyone calling me a racist, it is a slander and a lie.  There is nothing more to be said by me.


You know it's not just you who gets to decide whether you're being racist, right? It's not a matter of your identity. It's a matter of what you do and say and how other people judge that.

If you can explain yourself deliberately mixing up 'European floodgates open' with 'Muslim power on the rise', I'll consider revising my assessment, though I think both ideas are problematic in themselves. But what's the link? Please explain.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 27, 2016)

Greebozz said:


> I give up, I won't have a conversation with anyone calling me a racist



You'll be wanting to post elsewhere then.


----------



## Greebozz (Apr 27, 2016)

SpookyFrank said:


> You'll be wanting to post elsewhere then.


This is not good for my blood pressure, I'm walking away.


----------



## Greebozz (Apr 27, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> It's pretty much impossible to trace your ancestry back 1,000 years, unless descended from the aristocratic end of the Norman invaders of 11th century Britain.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


PS.  Thanks for your analysis of my post, I appreciate you taking the time.  I find it too exhausting debating online, if we met in person I'm sure we would have a great discussion in the pub.


----------



## Ranbay (Apr 27, 2016)

Just seen this posted on another forum I use (there is others you know)

*If a poll on local Facebook page is anything to go by ,we will be leaving the EU .
95 -out
35- in
9 -undecided

*


----------



## gosub (Apr 27, 2016)

Ranbay said:


> Just seen this posted on another forum I use (there is others you know)
> 
> *If a poll on local Facebook page is anything to go by ,we will be leaving the EU .
> 95 -out
> ...



Thinking like that is why it took Ed Milliband til midnight on polling day to realize he wasn't going to be PM


----------



## weltweit (Apr 27, 2016)

Ranbay said:


> Just seen this posted on another forum I use (there is others you know)
> 
> *If a poll on local Facebook page is anything to go by ,we will be leaving the EU .
> 95 -out
> ...


Looks like we have more in this thread's poll at top then.


----------



## DrRingDing (Apr 27, 2016)

I foresee people will vote for less democracy and a bigger state.


----------



## redsquirrel (Apr 27, 2016)

Yes that's precisely what they are going to vote for. Pity all the sheeple don't have your political nouse.


----------



## DrRingDing (Apr 27, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> Yes that's precisely what they are going to vote for. Pity all the sheeple don't have your political nouse.



Let's hear you counter my claims then. And not spout pathetic strawmen.


----------



## DrRingDing (Apr 27, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> Yes that's precisely what they are going to vote for. Pity all the sheeple don't have your political nouse.



Nous.


----------



## DrRingDing (Apr 27, 2016)

A nouse is something very different from what you meant.


----------



## DrRingDing (Apr 27, 2016)




----------



## tim (Apr 27, 2016)

Greebozz said:


> I'm really fed up with the liberal moral police.  If you apply the same principles would castigate the Tibetan people for complaining about Chinese immigration.  During the Second World War the French would be lectured about their despicable prejudice towards Germans.
> 
> I know what I say comes over all wrong but the only other option I have is to shut up about how I feel.  If you look through my past posts, there is no hint of me being accused of being a racist or a bigot it's only since recent mass immigration and the endless lunacy of extreme Islam that it's been a concern.  Anyone accusing me of being a racist is a complete fucking half wit.



80 years ago you'd have been moaning about the Jews.


----------



## tim (Apr 27, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> Yes that's precisely what they are going to vote for. Pity all the sheeple don't have your political nouse.



Two fantasy animals in one short post, impressive


----------



## Nylock (Apr 28, 2016)

Shame you can't change your vote here... I'm undecided now, veering towards exit...


----------



## William of Walworth (Apr 28, 2016)

The biggest thing that doesn't convince me about Brexit is something I mentioned a while back -- I simply fail to see how Brexit can make TTIP any more likely to be resisted, or any more likely to have its impact weakened, or made any less bad, or made any us any more likely to keep out of it.

I'm also unconvinced that left activists here will find it any easier to resist capitalism more generally, outside the EU.

None of the above is any kind of defence of the EU by the way. I'm still (just) more likely to vote remain even so, but mainly for the not very well thought out gut-reaction  reason that I fucking hate most (establishment) people in the various Out campaigns EVEN more than I hate most of the (establishment) Inners.

And at in-the-pub level, adopting a Brexit position even for the most leftwing of reasons, *risks* putting you in the unwelcome company of arseholes (at best).


----------



## William of Walworth (Apr 28, 2016)

Also, less important but still significant : another gut reaction.

I think (most) people, not on here, who are *really* obsessive about the 'evils' of the EU pick the wrong ones (the fictional ones). So many of single issue anti-EU drivellers come over as demented headcases who absolutely love to believe the lies that Boris Johnson and such people put out about it. 

And never think about any of the *real* probems and issues that are EU-associated.

In rush before work ... I will need more time on all this, clearly. Moar later etc.


----------



## Ranbay (Apr 28, 2016)

Currently winding people up that think leaving the EU means they wont be European any more  they can't grasp that Europe is a continent and nothing to do with the EU


----------



## Greebozz (Apr 28, 2016)

William of Walworth said:


> The biggest thing that doesn't convince me about Brexit is something I mentioned a while back -- I simply fail to see how Brexit can make TTIP any more likely to be resisted, or any more likely to have its impact weakened, or made any less bad, or made any us any more likely to keep out of it.
> 
> I'm also unconvinced that left activists here will find it any easier to resist capitalism more generally, outside the EU.
> 
> ...


I hope you won't be forever cursed by me agreeing with you on this forum.  I think there are so many better reasons to vote to leave the EU.

I'm convinced that the reason the political establishment want the UK to remain is to save themselves extra work.  The bureaucrats are keeping everything ticking along nicely and the politicians can just have nice easy days.

Can you imagine the chaos of actually having to sort out new arrangements and Europe and bureaucratic power structures being dismantled.  I feel be utterly fantastic to watch them hustle to create new trade deals.

That said I feel it would be done with a sense of pride.  Rather like owning one's own business as opposed to working for McDonald's.  If we continue in Europe were just become this faceless employee with little or no control over their destiny.

The thing I find absolutely priceless is that many hard-core lefties are basically going to be obeying David Cameron and George Osborne.  "Frightened into obedience" as someone put it.

I also feel a lot of the arguments are staying in a like this.  It's like being on a large ship that the captain and crew have been locked out of the bridge, someone else in control steering the ship.  And people saying well things are okay because the ship is sort of going in the direction that we want, for the present time.

For example, the talk about needing immigration because of an ageing population.  That's probably a fair point but we can have that if we want that for as long as we want if we leave Europe and if there's too much we can slow it down.

All the regulations, all the workers rights laws we can have if we are out of Europe because we can vote in the people that make up the parliament.  If we vote to stay in Europe we have almost no control over anything or to be precise one vote out of 28 countries.

Not only is it one vote in 28 countries, but Britain is very different, separate from Europe anyway, and the constant feeling that the other European countries are far closer together because of their geological and historical closeness.  We have always been rather the historic enemy the idea that they have any warmth or kindness for us, is bit of a stretch in my view.


----------



## gosub (Apr 28, 2016)

William of Walworth said:


> The biggest thing that doesn't convince me about Brexit is something I mentioned a while back -- I simply fail to see how Brexit can make TTIP any more likely to be resisted, or any more likely to have its impact weakened, or made any less bad, or made any us any more likely to keep out of it.
> 
> I'm also unconvinced that left activists here will find it any easier to resist capitalism more generally, outside the EU.
> 
> ...


If Britain is sooo influential within the EU,  the first thing I'd do if I was the rest of the EU is rip up what we helped shape and start again,  whilst we have Obama's and Clinton's assurance we'd be at the back of the queue... Happy out, the deal is estimated to increase GDP by 0.6% insignificant enough to spurn in favour of 'what price democracy?'	
OECD reckoned yesterday if outside EEA no UK deals inside 7 years, didn't give a figure for inside EEA(where theoretically TTIP if completed would have some effects on UK) but I don't think a TTIP negotiation reset would be the only impact on EU of our pull back to EEA/EFTA


----------



## andysays (Apr 28, 2016)

Greebozz said:


> ...Britain is very different, separate from Europe anyway, and the constant feeling that the other European countries are far closer together because of their geological and historical closeness.  We have always been rather the historic enemy the idea that they have any warmth or kindness for us, is bit of a stretch in my view.



Yeah, all those other EU countries, from Portugal in the west to Cyprus in the east, from Finland in the north to Malta in the south, are all *far* closer together geologically, historically and every other way than us in Britain.

I reckon the very idea that Britain is geographically part of the continent of Europe is just a liberal leftie lie, propagated to undermine our unique position as a proud bastion of a pure-white people and culture...


----------



## redsquirrel (Apr 28, 2016)

DrRingDing said:


> Let's hear you counter my claims then. And not spout pathetic strawmen.


Look at the remain voters that have posted on U75, I've not seen anyway arguing for such nonsense.

I don't agree with the arguments of those voting to remain but to claim that they are voting for less democracy is the reverse of the moronic argument that a vote for leave for nationalism. People are voting for remain for all sorts of reasons, many people because of something like this 


William of Walworth said:


> I'm still (just) more likely to vote remain even so, but mainly for the not very well thought out gut-reaction  reason that I fucking hate most (establishment) people in the various Out campaigns EVEN more than I hate most of the (establishment) Inners.


others because they think the EU will protect some workers rights, others because they feel 'European', some because they support the neo-liberalism of the EU, some because they are worried about what they think might happen to friends and loved ones who aren't British citizens and lots because they would rather just stick with the devil they know. 

To reduce the votes of all those voting for remain to voting for less democracy as stupid to claim that all the people who voted Labour last year were voting for neo-liberalism, despite that being exactly what the Labour party was going to give them. Only an anti-human wanker like you would dismiss 99% of the population like that.


----------



## youngian (Apr 28, 2016)

andysays said:


> Yeah, all those other EU countries, from Portugal in the west to Cyprus in the east, from Finland in the north to Malta in the south, are all *far* closer together geologically, historically and every other way than us in Britain.
> 
> I reckon the very idea that Britain is geographically part of the continent of Europe is just a liberal leftie lie, propagated to undermine our unique position as a proud bastion of a pure-white people and culture...


It's what Freud called the narcissism of small difference. He was applying it in the context of Austrians exaggerating their differences against their larger dominant German-speaking neighbour to make themselves feel a bit special. All EU nations have different narratives for coming together in the EU that's sort the point as to why this institution came into being; to find out what have in common and what policies we can pursue collectively.


----------



## DrRingDing (Apr 28, 2016)

So, voting to remain for completely illogical reasons. This is not a popularity contest.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 28, 2016)

DrRingDing said:


> So, voting to remain for completely illogical reasons. This is not a popularity contest.


Why don't you ever _say _anything?


----------



## redsquirrel (Apr 28, 2016)

DrRingDing said:


> So, voting to remain for completely illogical reasons.


Perhaps but that doesn't mean that they are the opponents of democracy that you are making them out to be.

The majority of people in Britain vote for neo-liberal parties, that doesn't make them supporters of neo-liberalism, we know that they aren't, the re-nationalisation of railways and utilities is hugely popular.


----------



## andysays (Apr 28, 2016)

DrRingDing said:


> I foresee people will vote for less democracy and a bigger state.





DrRingDing said:


> Let's hear you counter my claims then. And not spout pathetic strawmen.





DrRingDing said:


> So, voting to remain for completely illogical reasons. This is not a popularity contest.


----------



## DrRingDing (Apr 28, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Why don't you ever _say _anything?



Says you! How's about clearly stating yourself without using cryptic devices and shit grammar.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 28, 2016)

DrRingDing said:


> Says you! How's about clearly stating yourself without using cryptic devices and shit grammar.


That's exactly what i expected you to post. A decade and god knows how many shitty names and you've never once posted anything.


----------



## Greebozz (Apr 28, 2016)

andysays said:


> Yeah, all those other EU countries, from Portugal in the west to Cyprus in the east, from Finland in the north to Malta in the south, are all *far* closer together geologically, historically and every other way than us in Britain.
> 
> I reckon the very idea that Britain is geographically part of the continent of Europe is just a liberal leftie lie, propagated to undermine our unique position as a proud bastion of a pure-white people and culture...


If you said that last comment to my face, I would be tempted to give you a jab on the nose.


----------



## DrRingDing (Apr 28, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> That's exactly what i expected you to post. A decade and god knows how many shitty names and you've never once posted anything.



And you have spent a good 15 years avoiding clearly stating what you're arguing for. It's a good trick. But a trick it is.


----------



## Obediah Marsh (Apr 28, 2016)

A war between France and Germany is as likely as a war between Britain and the US. There are arguments pro the EU but preventing World War III isn't among them.


----------



## William of Walworth (Apr 28, 2016)

Immediately following part of one of my earlier posts from this morning  ...



redsquirrel said:


> others because they think the EU will protect some workers rights, others because they feel 'European', some because they support the neo-liberalism of the EU, some because they are worried about what they think might happen to friends and loved ones who aren't British citizens and lots because they would rather just stick with the devil they know.
> 
> To reduce the votes of all those voting for remain to voting for less democracy as stupid to claim that all the people who voted Labour last year were voting for neo-liberalism, despite that being exactly what the Labour party was going to give them. *Only an anti-human wanker like you would dismiss 99% of the population like that*.



  ???

Was that addressed at me? It looked like it was. Do explain ...


----------



## redsquirrel (Apr 29, 2016)

William of Walworth said:


> Immediately following part of one of my earlier posts from this morning  ...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No that whole post was responding to the nonsense posted by DrRingDing. I just quoted part of your post as an example of a reason why someone might vote for remain.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Apr 29, 2016)

Vote between two different ways of the same people fucking us up. Hmmmm.
Won't be bothering; not sure I can even be arsed to go and spoil my paper.


----------



## William of Walworth (Apr 29, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> No that whole post was responding to the nonsense posted by DrRingDing. I just quoted part of your post as an example of a reason why someone might vote for remain.




Cheers for that, and I do see now.

I posted my question about 6:30 am yesterday ... I'm never very good at working mornibgs


----------



## Stevlin (May 1, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> Look at the remain voters that have posted on U75, I've not seen anyway arguing for such nonsense.
> 
> I don't agree with the arguments of those voting to remain but to claim that they are voting for less democracy is the reverse of the moronic argument that a vote for leave for nationalism.


They may not have that uppermost in mind - but that is undoubtedly the outcome of remaining.


> People are voting for remain for all sorts of reasons, many people because of something like this others because they think the EU will protect some workers rights, others because they feel 'European', some because they support the neo-liberalism of the EU, some because they are worried about what they think might happen to friends and loved ones who aren't British citizens and lots because they would rather just stick with the devil they know.


Indeed - and many will be voting to remain as a result of the high level of scaremongering tactics employed by Cameron and Co. without even examining the plausibility of such claims.


----------



## weltweit (May 1, 2016)

Stevlin said:


> They may not have that uppermost in mind - but that is undoubtedly the outcome of remaining.


That is as it may be, but you don't see massive movements in France & Germany to exit the EU, rather they are getting stuck in to make it how they want it. Something I think we should be doing also.


----------



## gosub (May 1, 2016)

Leaked TTIP documents cast doubt on EU-US trade deal

Technical barriers to trade only really has 3 justifications for not adopting global standard : national security, H&S and Environmental, is looking like TTIP is about stripping environmental to a global standard . (pity i kind of like bees and stuff).


The EFTA out model leaves UK with government by fax in Enviornment and H&S (National Security is more complicated (look how quickly the US Safe Harbour was worked out).  Personally I was happy with that as a nation we are a bit knuckle draggy over those issues.


----------



## gosub (May 1, 2016)

weltweit said:


> That is as it may be, but you don't see massive movements in France & Germany to exit the EU, rather they are getting stuck in to make it how they want it. Something I think we should be doing also.



I think the French/Germans and just about eveyone else would be rather pissed off if we started telling them what they should do about the EUro and Schengen.

  Besides, the French are on hold for a year as they try to make Juppe President rather than Le Pen (who has some very different ideas about what she wants) and what Germany seems to want is Nein zu Allem.


----------



## William of Walworth (May 2, 2016)

Stevlin said:


> Indeed - and many will be voting to remain as a result of the high level of scaremongering tactics employed by Cameron and Co. without even examining the plausibility of such claims.



True there's been scaremongering. All the same, that point would be more persuasive to me if it wasn't for the sheer volumes of *outright lies* put out by the Brexit lot. Hardly makes their efforts to contradict the Remain side's points very effective.


----------



## Stevlin (May 2, 2016)

weltweit said:


> That is as it may be, but you don't see massive movements in France & Germany to exit the EU, rather they are getting stuck in to make it how they want it. Something I think we should be doing also.


So what? They are two of the founding members - and exacted a heavy price from Heath when they  'allowed' the UK .  In addition, France in particular, but also Germany, unlike ourselves, do very well out of the CAP - which even now consumes something like 40% of the EU budget.


----------



## Stevlin (May 2, 2016)

William of Walworth said:


> True there's been scaremongering. All the same, that point would be more persuasive to me if it wasn't for the sheer volumes of *outright lies* put out by the Brexit lot. Hardly makes their efforts to contradict the Remain side's points very effective.


Well perhaps instead of bleating 'outright lies', you could be more precise, and inform everyone what these lies are?


----------



## William of Walworth (May 2, 2016)

Stevlin : I take it you're a Brexiter?


----------



## weltweit (May 2, 2016)

Stevlin said:


> So what? They are two of the founding members - and exacted a heavy price from Heath when they  'allowed' the UK .  In addition, France in particular, but also Germany, unlike ourselves, do very well out of the CAP - which even now consumes something like 40% of the EU budget.


We certainly won't rectify that through leaving.


----------



## Stevlin (May 2, 2016)

William of Walworth said:


> Stevlin : I take it you're a Brexiter?


Indeed William........I guess that must be obvious from my comments. Leaving will undoubtedly 'rectify that' as far as the UK are concerned though - which I believe is far more important. ;0)
Trade with the EU would still continue - and we might even be able to afford treating British cancer patients who are being denied life extending drugs because of the expense!!


----------



## andysays (May 2, 2016)

Stevlin said:


> Indeed William........I guess that must be obvious from my comments. Leaving will undoubtedly 'rectify that' as far as the UK are concerned though - which I believe is far more important. ;0)
> Trade with the EU would still continue - and *we might even be able to afford treating British cancer patients who are being denied life extending drugs because of the expense!!*



Can you explain how this works and why leaving the EU would make these drugs more affordable (I'm guessing this is what you mean, although it's not totally clear)


----------



## Stevlin (May 2, 2016)

weltweit said:


> We certainly won't rectify that through leaving.


Apologies for mis-'naming' you Weltweit!! ;0)


----------



## weltweit (May 2, 2016)

Stevlin said:


> Trade with the EU would still continue - and we might even be able to afford treating British cancer patients who are being denied life extending drugs because of the expense!!


I don't think we are likely to be able to negotiate access to the single market post exit without having to abide by the rules and more significantly, paying for access. Even taking into account that France and Germany will still want to access the UK market.

And welcome to Urban, Stevlin.


----------



## Stevlin (May 2, 2016)

andysays said:


> Can you explain how this works and why leaving the EU would make these drugs more affordable (I'm guessing this is what you mean, although it's not totally clear)


I would have thought that fairly clear Andy - we currently borrow about £1 billion per month ,(net), to pay our EU membership fee/EU subsidy , yet cannot afford certain drugs......so out of the EU, if we can afford to subsidise them each year, we could continue to borrow it to fund those drugs instead.
I'm talking possibility of course - if we do leave the EU, despite not having to borrow the EU  subsidy, I wouldn't be surprised if the  response for those drugs would still be - "too expensive"


----------



## William of Walworth (May 2, 2016)

Stevlin : do you think the main thrust of the Brexit campaign right now, is advancing your case very well?


----------



## Stevlin (May 2, 2016)

weltweit said:


> I don't think we are likely to be able to negotiate access to the single market post exit without having to abide by the rules and more significantly, paying for access. Even taking into account that France and Germany will still want to access the UK market.
> And welcome to Urban, Stevlin.


Well around 50 or so countries have in fact arranged just that......and as the EU sells more to the UK than vice versa, it would clearly hurt them more than the UK. In any event, the average global trade tariff is far lower now that it was in 1973 - which to a certain extent has actually 'devalued'  free trade agreements. But, although we access the single market, it cannot really be considered 'free' , as we have to pay a subsidy for that privilege----as well as handing over British sole fishing territorial rights to the EU, and ceding some of our sovereignty, ( EU law has primacy over UK Parliament law), to an unelected politburo, and irresponsibly ceding control of our borders.

And thank you for the welcome WW - it is appreciated.


----------



## gosub (May 2, 2016)

William of Walworth said:


> Stevlin : do you think the main thrust of the Brexit campaign right now, is advancing your case very well?


I'd say yes. Its the bollocks case.


----------



## sleaterkinney (May 2, 2016)

Stevlin said:


> I would have thought that fairly clear Andy - we currently borrow about £1 billion per month ,(net), to pay our EU membership fee/EU subsidy , yet cannot afford certain drugs......so out of the EU, if we can afford to subsidise them each year, we could continue to borrow it to fund those drugs instead.
> I'm talking possibility of course - if we do leave the EU, despite not having to borrow the EU  subsidy, I wouldn't be surprised if the  response for those drugs would still be - "too expensive"


This is silly argument, we leave the EU but still have the same amount to spend - so we can spend it on stuff like cancer drugs(who wouldn't want that?) instead of the useless EU...


----------



## gosub (May 2, 2016)

If you take ALL the money we pay in to  spend on cancer drugs, you've collapsed agriculture let alone the other areas money comes back, and you can't compensate the fishermen you don't want fishing your waters (A legal requirement).  It a lot more the 50 countries that don't get billed for single market access.

In the Seven Years War, we had a vital need for experienced sailors.  Still made more sense to shoot Admiral Byng.


----------



## Stevlin (May 2, 2016)

William of Walworth said:


> Stevlin : do you think the main thrust of the Brexit campaign right now, is advancing your case very well?


Unfortunately, I believe that there is a strong possibility that the Bremainers will will the referendum. I consider the leave campaign to be extremely sensible, based on what the situation IS now. The future of the EU is undoubtedly the USSE - common currency, lack of borders, Parliament etc....
Personally, I much prefer that we manage our own destiny - which we have for far longer than we have been in the EEC/EU........but , the British public are generally very apathetic wrt politics  - and those outlandish scare mongering tales appear to be scaring many people!!
The Bremainers cannot even see the dangers incorporated in the free - movement right of an expanding political union. Just look at our prison population! We have enough home grown criminals without importing them - and soon, there will be another 5 countries, making it 32 European, ( plus mostly Asian Turkey), with the right to walk into the UK. 
Absolute bonkers!!


----------



## gosub (May 2, 2016)




----------



## Stevlin (May 2, 2016)

sleaterkinney said:


> This is silly argument, we leave the EU but still have the same amount to spend - so we can spend it on stuff like cancer drugs(who wouldn't want that?) instead of the useless EU...


OK clever clogs - now tell us why the argument is 'silly'. We are IN the EU, which means we CANNOT spend the 'same amount' AND buy those cancer drugs - but not everybody supports Brexit do they?


----------



## gosub (May 2, 2016)

Stevlin said:


> OK clever clogs - now tell us why the argument is 'silly'. We are IN the EU, which means we CANNOT spend the 'same amount' AND buy those cancer drugs - but not everybody supports Brexit do they?


it went silly when you added numbers.   (and has been going down hill since)


----------



## William of Walworth (May 2, 2016)

Stevlin : Thanks for that reply. 

(I'll be back on this thread ASAP but I need to crash early, tonight)

None of your reply really answered my question though -- how well are Brexit *actually* doing, publicity-wise, and in pragmatic election-strategy terms,  at advancing any _sensible_ arguments to leave the EU??


----------



## William of Walworth (May 2, 2016)

In other words : IMO, Brexiters come over as demented obsessives in current publicity. 

That's a big terrible mainstreammedia conspiracy presumably


----------



## sleaterkinney (May 2, 2016)

Stevlin said:


> OK clever clogs - now tell us why the argument is 'silly'. We are IN the EU, which means we CANNOT spend the 'same amount' AND buy those cancer drugs - but not everybody supports Brexit do they?


It's a false equivalent to say the reason we don't buy them is because we have to pay for membership of the EU.


----------



## MrSki (May 2, 2016)

I expect this has been posted before but for Stevlin


----------



## gosub (May 2, 2016)

William of Walworth said:


> In other words : IMO, Brexiters come over as demented obsessives in current publicity.
> 
> That's a big terrible mainstreammedia conspiracy presumably



No fair.  You ask the fella who goes from calling remainers "scaremongers' to worrying about prison places in a paragraph.


----------



## Stevlin (May 2, 2016)

gosub said:


> If you take ALL the money we pay in to  spend on cancer drugs, you've collapsed agriculture let alone the other areas money comes back, and you can't compensate the fishermen you don't want fishing your waters (A legal requirement).  It a lot more the 50 countries that don't get billed for single market access.
> 
> In the Seven Years War, we had a vital need for experienced sailors.  Still made more sense to shoot Admiral Byng.


Nonsense. The subsidies our farmers get are a small amount of what we pay to subsidise the EU.


sleaterkinney said:


> It's a false equivalent to say the reason we don't buy them is because we have to pay for membership of the EU.


----------



## William of Walworth (May 2, 2016)

gosub  : Only trying to seek where this bloke is coming from, exactly.


----------



## gosub (May 2, 2016)

Stevlin said:


> Nonsense. The subsidies our farmers get are a small amount of what we pay to subsidise the EU.



Its a smallER amount, certainly, but its not a SMALL amount.


----------



## Stevlin (May 2, 2016)

sleaterkinney said:


> It's a false equivalent to say the reason we don't buy them is because we have to pay for membership of the EU.


That is not what I have claimed. I pointed out that we do not purchase those drugs because of the _expense_ - so it is very clear that out of the EU we WOULD have money to spend on those drugs if we spent the same amount of money. There is nothing false about that.


----------



## Stevlin (May 2, 2016)

gosub said:


> No fair.  You ask the fella who goes from calling remainers "scaremongers' to worrying about prison places in a paragraph.


 Except the 'fella' pointed out a fact - not an unsupported scaremongering prediction!


----------



## Stevlin (May 2, 2016)

gosub said:


> Its a smallER amount, certainly, but its not a SMALL amount.


It is much 'smaller' than what we pay to subsidise the EU.


----------



## gosub (May 2, 2016)

Stevlin said:


> It is much 'smaller' than what we pay to subsidise the EU.



Its 3 billion a year.  it was 3 billion when Eustace tried telling them they'd be better off coz we'd have 2 billion a year to give them and it was still 3 billion when you spunked the lot on cancer drugs with your numbers.


Me, not so happy with the Leave campaign.


----------



## MrSki (May 2, 2016)

Stevlin said:


> It is much 'smaller' than what we pay to subsidise the EU.


It is less per head after what comes back than Norway pays to trade in the single market.


----------



## Stevlin (May 2, 2016)

William of Walworth said:


> Stevlin : Thanks for that reply.
> 
> (I'll be back on this thread ASAP but I need to crash early, tonight)
> 
> None of your reply really answered my question though -- how well are Brexit *actually* doing, publicity-wise, and in pragmatic election-strategy terms,  at advancing any _sensible_ arguments to leave the EU??


 Maybe I'll respond to that after you have provided support for your claim of " volumes of outright lies" - have a good sleep - you sound like you need it. ;o)


----------



## Stevlin (May 2, 2016)

MrSki said:


> It is less per head after what comes back than Norway pays to trade in the single market.


So what? We shouldn't be paying anything at all!! It is trading with Europe from which we derive benefit....not being members of the EU!! - and Norway are far more wealthier than we are per capita - and gain far for from their trade with the EU that the little that they pay in membership fee.


----------



## Brainaddict (May 2, 2016)

Stevlin said:


> Indeed William........I guess that must be obvious from my comments. Leaving will undoubtedly 'rectify that' as far as the UK are concerned though - which I believe is far more important. ;0)
> Trade with the EU would still continue - and we might even be able to afford treating British cancer patients who are being denied life extending drugs because of the expense!!


Stevlin, the UK can afford those cancer drugs. Now. We'll also be able to afford them if we leave the EU. But they won't get bought.

The reasons for that are probably some mix of pragmatism about the cost of extending the life of people who have a low quality of life and are going to die anyway (all health services have to make these decisions) and, just perhaps, your rulers not giving one fuck about you. The EU has nothing to do with it, nor to do with the poor quality of your local schools, the distance to your closest A&E, or the cost of higher education. See the second part of what I said for the explanation of that.

You are deluded if you think any part of the Tory party wants to leave the EU so they can spend more money on you. They don't and they won't.


----------



## sleaterkinney (May 2, 2016)

Stevlin said:


> That is not what I have claimed. I pointed out that we do not purchase those drugs because of the _expense_ - so it is very clear that out of the EU we WOULD have money to spend on those drugs if we spent the same amount of money. There is nothing false about that.


It's a false claim that we would spend that money on those drugs.


----------



## andysays (May 2, 2016)

Stevlin said:


> I would have thought that fairly clear Andy - we currently borrow about £1 billion per month ,(net), to pay our EU membership fee/EU subsidy , yet cannot afford certain drugs......so out of the EU, if we can afford to subsidise them each year, we could continue to borrow it to fund those drugs instead.
> I'm talking possibility of course - if we do leave the EU, despite not having to borrow the EU  subsidy, I wouldn't be surprised if the  response for those drugs would still be - "too expensive"



OK, so you're *not* saying that these drugs will actually become more affordable in the sense that we pay more for them because we're in the EU, but because you reckon that we will save money by leaving and you further reckon that money will therefore be spent in this particular way you've picked, seemingly at random.

I'm actually in favour of our leaving ATM, but if I hear too many more arguments like that, I might end up changing my mind...


----------



## Stevlin (May 2, 2016)

gosub said:


> Its 3 billion a year.  it was 3 billion when Eustace tried telling them they'd be better off coz we'd have 2 billion a year to give them and it was still 3 billion when you spunked the lot on cancer drugs with your numbers.
> 
> 
> Me, not so happy with the Leave campaign.


Then we could comfortably pay that from our EU subsidy which is far larger than that, and, use the balance to pay for those devilishly unaffordable cancer drugs. That would be better value than paying farmers to leaving their land untouched wouldn't it? - and we would be able to import far cheaper food products too!
 I sort have gathered that you were a Bremainer , which surprises me - as you had seemed to be intelligent......;0)


----------



## Stevlin (May 2, 2016)

andysays said:


> OK, so you're *not* saying that these drugs will actually become more affordable in the sense that we pay more for them because we're in the EU, but because you reckon that we will save money by leaving and you further reckon that money will therefore be spent in this particular way you've picked, seemingly at random.
> 
> I'm actually in favour of our leaving ATM, but if I hear too many more arguments like that, I might end up changing my mind...


Affordability doesn't come into it. If we can afford to subsidise the EU, then clearly, outside of the EU we could afford  to spend that EU subsidy on cancer drugs. That appears to me to be simple enough to understand. You are entitled to vote whichever way you want - but if you are that easily swayed, I wonder what the main reasons were that caused you to favour leaving in the first place!


----------



## Stevlin (May 2, 2016)

sleaterkinney said:


> It's a false claim that we would spend that money on those drugs.


Why don't you read the posts again! - I didn't claim that they would be spent on drugs. In the event of Brexit, the EU subsidy savings may not be borrowed at all - in order to reduce the deficit. I stated that the money COULD be spent on drugs - which was merely an example of how British citizens could benefit directly from the huge EU subsidy fee......for a change.


----------



## MrSki (May 2, 2016)

Stevlin said:


> Affordability doesn't come into it. If we can afford to subsidise the EU, then clearly, outside of the EU we could afford  to spend that EU subsidy on cancer drugs. That appears to me to be simple enough to understand. You are entitled to vote whichever way you want - but if you are that easily swayed, I wonder what the main reasons were that caused you to favour leaving in the first place!


Where does cancer drugs come into it? Do you really think any money saved in the short run would  be spent on drugs or the NHS? If so why?


----------



## gosub (May 2, 2016)

Stevlin said:


> Then we could comfortably pay that from our EU subsidy which is far larger than that, and, use the balance to pay for those devilishly unaffordable cancer drugs. That would be better value than paying farmers to leaving their land untouched wouldn't it? - and we would be able to import far cheaper food products too!
> I sort have gathered that you were a Bremainer , which surprises me - as you had seemed to be intelligent......;0)


Umm 


Qs Obama rightly said in London this referendum puts us in a privileged position.  The only developed nation to have a chance to move a more transparent and accountable interface with the global corporatism.   


Please don't fuck it up.


----------



## sleaterkinney (May 2, 2016)

Stevlin said:


> Why don't you read the posts again! - I didn't claim that they would be spent on drugs. In the event of Brexit, the EU subsidy savings may not be borrowed at all - in order to reduce the deficit. I stated that the money COULD be spent on drugs - which was merely an example of how British citizens could benefit directly from the huge EU subsidy fee......for a change.


We could spend the money on lots of things, why mention cancer drugs?


----------



## andysays (May 2, 2016)

sleaterkinney said:


> We could spend the money on lots of things, why mention cancer drugs?



Basically, he's suggesting that if you don't vote to come out of the EU, you want people to die of cancer.

I'm sure that will prove an effective and convincing argument to everyone here who was considering voting to stay in...


----------



## Stevlin (May 2, 2016)

MrSki said:


> Where does cancer drugs come into it? Do you really think any money saved in the short run would  be spent on drugs or the NHS? If so why?


Geeez - I quoted how some expensive  cancer drugs are being denied patients because of cost, purely as an example of how British citizens are being denied life extending drugs because of the expense, yet the UK is paying a huge subsidy to the EU ......that doesn't fit well with me.


----------



## Stevlin (May 2, 2016)

gosub said:


> Umm
> 
> 
> Qs Obama rightly said in London this referendum puts us in a privileged position.  The only developed nation to have a chance to move a more transparent and accountable interface with the global corporatism.
> ...


Did he now? Well well, do you think that the Yanks would be prepared to cede elements of sovereignty to a foreign body?. It is clear that the USA would prefer a 'friendly' voice in the future USSE than out of it. Hell, if he likes the EU that much, why don't the USA apply to join ?- the consideration of Turkey's application demonstrates that it is not necessary to be a European country , as the vast majority of Turkey is in Asia.The USA have arranged several FT deals with others , including Mexico - but they certainly wouldn't  consider removing  border controls with Mexico would they? - in fact, Trump even wants to build a huge wall between the USA and Mexico.


----------



## Stevlin (May 2, 2016)

andysays said:


> Basically, he's suggesting that if you don't vote to come out of the EU, you want people to die of cancer.
> 
> I'm sure that will prove an effective and convincing argument to everyone here who was considering voting to stay in...


What a ridiculous  comment to make!


----------



## Stevlin (May 2, 2016)

MrSki said:


> Where does cancer drugs come into it? Do you really think any money saved in the short run would  be spent on drugs or the NHS? If so why?


I used that as an example - be free to suggest you own preference for where that huge EU subsidy could be spent!


----------



## gosub (May 2, 2016)

Stevlin said:


> Did he now? Well well, do you think that the Yanks would be prepared to cede elements of sovereignty to a foreign body?. It is clear that the USA would prefer a 'friendly' voice in the future USSE than out of it. Hell, if he likes the EU that much, why don't the USA apply to join ?- the consideration of Turkey's application demonstrates that it is not necessary to be a European country , as the vast majority of Turkey is in Asia.The USA have arranged several FT deals with others , including Mexico - but they certainly wouldn't  consider removing  border controls with Mexico would they? - in fact, Trump even wants to build a huge wall between the USA and Mexico.



What I said was the he rightly that we are in an eminently privileged position (one some of us have put 20years graft into getting.)  The fucker that even cracks jokes about his forthcoming job at Goldman wants us to stay in.  That would to decline the one off shot towards a more transparent and accountable interface with global corporatism.


----------



## gosub (May 3, 2016)

Urban may not,the meadow of wildflowers it was but fuck astroturf.


----------



## William of Walworth (May 3, 2016)

William of Walworth said:
			
		

> None of your reply really answered my question though -- how well are Brexit *actually* doing, publicity-wise, and in pragmatic election-strategy terms, at advancing any _sensible_ arguments to leave the EU??





Stevlin said:


> Maybe I'll respond to that after you have provided support for your claim of " volumes of outright lies" - have a good sleep - you sound like you need it. ;o)




The above makes you sound far too uncritically Brexit to be worth bothering with to be honest.

I only asked how successful you thought your campaign's leadership was being so far.


----------



## bi0boy (May 3, 2016)

gosub said:


> a more transparent and accountable interface with the global corporatism.



^^^ Funnily enough all my relatives were saying exactly this to me just the other week. None of them mentioned immigration or jobs at all.


----------



## Stevlin (May 3, 2016)

gosub said:


> What I said was the he rightly that we are in an eminently privileged position (one some of us have put 20years graft into getting.)  The fucker that even cracks jokes about his forthcoming job at Goldman wants us to stay in.  That would to decline the one off shot towards a more transparent and accountable interface with global corporatism.


What a load of crap!! Exactly what privileged position are we in wrt the EU?? Big business naturally do quite well out of the EU - after all, they get to export their products without having to pay tariffs - because the tax-payer is virtually paying to facilitate that via subsidising the EU. The EU have initiated many proposals which the UK objected to - because of QMV, and ALL our businesses  have to cope with EU red -tape ,whether or not they trade with the EU. Being in the EU does not appear to have stopped the huge corporations/large businesses from legally avoiding the payment of taxes on huge profits made in the UK has it??


----------



## Stevlin (May 3, 2016)

William of Walworth said:


> The above makes you sound far too uncritically Brexit to be worth bothering with to be honest.


 Too uncritical???? There are too options - No1 -remain, and No2 - stay in .  Deciding on one out of two is merely a measure of weighing up the pros and cons of each option. I have based my choice on the facts - not scaremongering assumptions - 



> I only asked how successful you thought your campaign's leadership was being so far.


And I asked you to illustrate those 'outrageous lies' that you accuse the Brexiters  of making. 
Why the hell should we pay a fortune to access a market that sells more to us than we do to them?- as well as ceding legal sovereignty


----------



## weltweit (May 3, 2016)

Stevlin said:


> Too uncritical???? There are too options - No1 -remain, and No2 - stay in .  ..


I don't think you mean that somehow


----------



## Santino (May 3, 2016)

William of Walworth said:


> The above makes you sound far too uncritically Brexit to be worth bothering with to be honest.
> 
> I only asked how successful you thought your campaign's leadership was being so far.


How successful has _your _campaign's leadership been?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (May 3, 2016)

Seems to me it's mostly:

Liberal left = remain.
Radical left = exit, abstain.


----------



## gosub (May 3, 2016)

Stevlin said:


> What a load of crap!!



Unfortunately, I've got a busy month. Hopefully the penny will drop at some stage.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 3, 2016)

Stevlin said:


> ...plus mostly Asian Turkey...



Wholly inaccurate. 
Mostly Eurasian, which means something entirely different. To distinguish the "Asian" part at the expense of the "Euro" part is at best disingenuous and/or ignorant


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 3, 2016)

Stevlin said:


> OK clever clogs - now tell us why the argument is 'silly'. We are IN the EU, which means we CANNOT spend the 'same amount' AND buy those cancer drugs - but not everybody supports Brexit do they?



You'd do better to ask yourself - if it's true - *why* the British government is borrowing money to pay its EU dues.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 3, 2016)

gosub said:


> Its 3 billion a year.  it was 3 billion when Eustace tried telling them they'd be better off coz we'd have 2 billion a year to give them and it was still 3 billion when you spunked the lot on cancer drugs with your numbers.
> 
> 
> Me, not so happy with the Leave campaign.



I'd be happier with the "leave" campaign and the "remain" campaign if they actually engaged with impacts on "normal people" beyond fictional sums of money being made available or unavailable.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 3, 2016)

Stevlin said:


> Affordability doesn't come into it. If we can afford to subsidise the EU, then clearly, outside of the EU we could afford  to spend that EU subsidy on cancer drugs. That appears to me to be simple enough to understand. You are entitled to vote whichever way you want - but if you are that easily swayed, I wonder what the main reasons were that caused you to favour leaving in the first place!



Your second sentence is circular logic.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 3, 2016)

Stevlin said:


> So what? We shouldn't be paying anything at all!! It is trading with Europe from which we derive benefit....not being members of the EU!! - and Norway are far more wealthier than we are per capita - and gain far for from their trade with the EU that the little that they pay in membership fee.



Norway are wealthier/more wealthy ("more wealthier" is tautologous) due to ramming their NS oil and gas income into a sovereign wealth fund. Our own government - not the EU - spunked *our* oil and gas income on giving tax breaks and subsidies to big business and the already-wealthy.


----------



## Stevlin (May 3, 2016)

Brainaddict said:


> Stevlin, the UK can afford those cancer drugs. Now. We'll also be able to afford them if we leave the EU. But they won't get bought.
> 
> The reasons for that are probably some mix of pragmatism about the cost of extending the life of people who have a low quality of life and are going to die anyway (all health services have to make these decisions) and, just perhaps, your rulers not giving one fuck about you. The EU has nothing to do with it, nor to do with the poor quality of your local schools, the distance to your closest A&E, or the cost of higher education. See the second part of what I said for the explanation of that.
> 
> You are deluded if you think any part of the Tory party wants to leave the EU so they can spend more money on you. They don't and they won't.


----------



## Stevlin (May 3, 2016)

weltweit said:


> I don't think you mean that somehow


_'Two _right I don't! Cheers for that  - I do tend to be 'careless' at times -  particularly with not checking what I have '_ritten' _


----------



## Stevlin (May 3, 2016)

Santino said:


> How successful has _your _campaign's leadership been?


Generally, somewhat disappointing to me - but, at least it's more factual that the scaremongering lobby using Mystic Meg's crystal ball!#


gosub said:


> Unfortunately, I've got a busy month. Hopefully the penny will drop at some stage.


I certainly hope that you finally wise up, but I don't it will drop for you..... somehow!


----------



## Santino (May 3, 2016)

Stevlin said:


> Generally, somewhat disappointing to me - but, at least it's more factual that the scaremongering lobby using Mystic Meg's crystal ball!#


 I was asking William of Walworth actually.


----------



## stethoscope (May 3, 2016)

Stevlin said:


> I would have thought that fairly clear Andy - we currently borrow about £1 billion per month ,(net), to pay our EU membership fee/EU subsidy , yet cannot afford certain drugs......so out of the EU, if we can afford to subsidise them each year, we could continue to borrow it to fund those drugs instead.
> I'm talking possibility of course - if we do leave the EU, despite not having to borrow the EU  subsidy, I wouldn't be surprised if the  response for those drugs would still be - "too expensive"



What other reasons do you have for exit, other than this which doesn't really follow. As others have said, we can afford those drugs already and not paying for membership of the EU won't magically make that money available for those drugs.

(I'm falling towards exit myself in what's a pretty crap deal either way - if only for the potential of attacking EU neoliberalism and hoping that a pro-worker/socialist alliance could come out of it in the longer term both here and in Europe)


----------



## gosub (May 3, 2016)

William of Walworth said:


> gosub  : Only trying to seek where this bloke is coming from, exactly.



Increasingly reassured he's a best of intentions, doing his own thing bloke, that I personally think would be better off leafleting.   No Comms manager in their right mind is going to say "right, we need people with  little grasp of nuance and syntax, to asto turf social media with 'the lines'


----------



## laptop (May 3, 2016)

gosub said:


> No Comms manager in their right mind is going to say "right, we need people with as little grasp of nuance and syntax, to asto turf social media with 'the lines'



Oh, I don't know... if they've read the "Why do Nigerian scammers say they're from Nigeria?" paper they'll understand that bad writing has its place in reaching certain target audiences...


----------



## weltweit (May 3, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> (I'm falling towards exit myself in what's a pretty crap deal either way - if only for the potential of attacking EU neoliberalism and hoping that a pro-worker/socialist alliance could come out of it in the longer term both here and in Europe)


It won't, if the UK votes to leave, Scotland will leave the rump UK and the English Welsh and Northern Irish will be left with a mainly tory Westminster and no entry into European markets unless it pays and plays by the rules.


----------



## stethoscope (May 3, 2016)

weltweit said:


> ...
> no entry into European markets unless it pays and plays by the rules.



Cos Schäuble said so?


----------



## weltweit (May 3, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> Cos Schäuble said so?


What did he say?


----------



## stethoscope (May 3, 2016)

weltweit said:


> What did he say?



My point is, where's your rationale for...

'and no entry into European markets unless it pays and plays by the rules'

(we already do this btw)


----------



## weltweit (May 3, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> My point is, where's your rationale for...
> 
> 'and no entry into European markets unless it pays and plays by the rules'
> 
> (we already do this btw)


Yes, we already do this and I don't think our potentially leaving is going to grant us an escape from jail card, we will still have to pay and play by the rules. But then we will have even less say in the running of the market.


----------



## DotCommunist (May 3, 2016)

oh noes


----------



## weltweit (May 3, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> oh noes


I think there will be quite a lot of inward investment that would have come to the UK if we were part of the EU which if we have left will think of other places to go. Plus new investments for people like Honda, Nissan, Airbus etc might well move from us to the continent, which means job losses.


----------



## Stevlin (May 3, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> Wholly inaccurate.
> Mostly Eurasian, which means something entirely different. To distinguish the "Asian" part at the expense of the "Euro" part is at best disingenuous and/or ignorant


Nope - mid-90s% of Turkey is in Asia - that means mostly Asian in may book........I'm talking of the location of Turkey - not it's peoples.


----------



## Stevlin (May 3, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> You'd do better to ask yourself - if it's true - *why* the British government is borrowing money to pay its EU dues.


What has that got to do with claims of making a 'silly' argument?


----------



## Stevlin (May 3, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> Your second sentence is circular logic.


No it isn't it is making a straight forward logical conclusion. Whatever money is saved from leaving the EU clearly could be spent on something else.


----------



## Stevlin (May 3, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> Norway are wealthier/more wealthy ("more wealthier" is tautologous) due to ramming their NS oil and gas income into a sovereign wealth fund. Our own government - not the EU - spunked *our* oil and gas income on giving tax breaks and subsidies to big business and the already-wealthy.


The reason for their wealthier state is irrelevant, as the issue was about EU membership/single market access......but how does a government 'spunk' our oil and gas income??


----------



## Stevlin (May 3, 2016)

Santino said:


> I was asking William of Walworth actually.


So what? You posted your question on a forum.


----------



## Santino (May 3, 2016)

Stevlin said:


> So what? You posted your question on a forum.


I was just clarifying that I am still waiting for him to answer. There's no need to get in a tizzy about it.


----------



## Stevlin (May 3, 2016)

Brainaddict said:


> Stevlin, the UK can afford those cancer drugs. Now. We'll also be able to afford them if we leave the EU. But they won't get bought.
> 
> The reasons for that are probably some mix of pragmatism about the cost of extending the life of people who have a low quality of life and are going to die anyway (all health services have to make these decisions) and, just perhaps, your rulers not giving one fuck about you. The EU has nothing to do with it, nor to do with the poor quality of your local schools, the distance to your closest A&E, or the cost of higher education. See the second part of what I said for the explanation of that.
> 
> You are deluded if you think any part of the Tory party wants to leave the EU so they can spend more money on you. They don't and they won't.


The reason for denying the drugs is because of the expense. It may well be that the 'administration' officials consider it poor value for the money.......but so what? The point being made is that British citizens, many of whom have clearly 'contributed' to the system during their lifetime, whereas the UK are paying huge sums to subsidise EU citizens who have made no contributions whatsoever - and in response to the rest of your gripe - if you preferred that EU subsidy saving to be spent elsewhere fine - but it is nonsense to claim the EU has nothing to do with it.
Incidentally - you are the deluded one if you believe that my comments on ceasing to borrow to subsidise the EU is Tory biased - or in fact that we can continue to spend above our income indefinitely - which you appear to imply with claiming that 'we can afford to'.


----------



## agricola (May 3, 2016)

Stevlin said:


> The reason for their wealthier state is irrelevant, as the issue was about EU membership/single market access......but how does a government 'spunk' our oil and gas income??



Well, for a start selling off the British National Oil Company for less than it was worth just before the boom in production in the North Sea.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 3, 2016)

Stevlin said:


> Nope - mid-90s% of Turkey is in Asia - that means mostly Asian in may book........I'm talking of the location of Turkey - not it's peoples.



Asia Minor or Eurasia are *not* what the majority of people are referring to, when using the term "Asia".



Stevlin said:


> What has that got to do with claims of making a 'silly' argument?



The one informs the other.



Stevlin said:


> No it isn't it is making a straight forward logical conclusion. Whatever money is saved from leaving the EU clearly could be spent on something else.



"Whatever money is saved *could* be spent elsewhere, therefore Brexit!" is circular logic. It may be straightforward, but it's still circular.



Stevlin said:


> The reason for their wealthier state is irrelevant, as the issue was about EU membership/single market access......but how does a government 'spunk' our oil and gas income??



The reason for Norway's wealth is *entirely* relevant.
Norway is *not*wealthy because they're outside the EU, they're wealthy because they had foresight with regard to their natural resources and what could be done with the income they generated.

A government "spunks" such income when they spend it on non-core issues such as cutting taxation, which rarely even generates savings let alone investment, rather than on infrastructure, which *generates* money.[/quote]


----------



## littlebabyjesus (May 3, 2016)

agricola said:


> Well, for a start selling off the British National Oil Company for less than it was worth just before the boom in production in the North Sea.


Also, oil reserves are pretty evenly split between the UK and Norway. But that means 10 times more oil per capita for Norway.


----------



## Stevlin (May 3, 2016)

Santino said:


> I was just clarifying that I am still waiting for him to answer. There's no need to get in a tizzy about it.


Hardly in a 'tizzy' - I was just amazed that somebody posting a question on a forum, ( irrespective to whom it was addressed), would appear to be surprised at receiving an answer from somebody else.


----------



## Santino (May 3, 2016)

Stevlin said:


> Hardly in a 'tizzy' - I was just amazed that somebody posting a question on a forum, ( irrespective to whom it was addressed), would appear to be surprised at receiving an answer from somebody else.


 I wasn't surprised, I was correcting someone who I thought couldn't understand how quoting in message boards works. I thought perhaps you were a little bit dim, but I realise now I was wrong.


----------



## Stevlin (May 3, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> Asia Minor or Eurasia are *not* what the majority of people are referring to, when using the term "Asia".


Irrelevant - the majority of Turkey is in Asia - which is all that I pointed out - after all - it is in the context of the European Union that we are talking......


> The one informs the other.


How so?


> "Whatever money is saved *could* be spent elsewhere, therefore Brexit!" is circular logic. It may be straightforward, but it's still circular.


 Nonsense.....that is why I clarified my comment with 'COULD'. This clearly indicated that spending on the NHS was only ONE option out of many


> The reason for Norway's wealth is *entirely* relevant.
> Norway is *not *wealthy because they're outside the EU, they're wealthy because they had foresight with regard to their natural resources and what could be done with the income they generated.


Absolute nonsense. I never claimed that they were wealthier because they weren't a member of the EU - that is a claim of the Bremainers. They are wealthy BECAUSE of the oil - the fact that, as you state, unlike the UK,  they spend their oil and gas revenue wisely, such as not frittering it away on tax reductions etc. In fact  the majority of wealthy countries are not members of the EU.


> A government "spunks" such income when they spend it on non-core issues such as cutting taxation, which rarely even generates savings let alone investment, rather than on infrastructure, which *generates* money.


 Nope - 'spunk' is a noun, not a verb ,and is related to pluck, or courage. It has nothing to do with investing  oil and gas revenue on social expenditure rather than making tax cuts.


----------



## Stevlin (May 3, 2016)

Santino said:


> I wasn't surprised, I was correcting someone who I thought couldn't understand how quoting in message boards works. I thought perhaps you were a little bit dim, but I realise now I was wrong.


Well you may not be.....I have indeed screwed up a few posting attempts. ;0)


----------



## DotCommunist (May 3, 2016)

spunk in that context refers to ejaculation

i.e

he got his wages then spunked them up the wall on a pub crawl


----------



## hash tag (May 3, 2016)

I still don't know which way to vote, because although they have spent £9 million on leaflets to tell us what to do, I still have not received mine  Oh, what to do?


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 3, 2016)

Stevlin said:


> Irrelevant - the majority of Turkey is in Asia - which is all that I pointed out - after all - it is in the context of the European Union that we are talking......



Hence the "Eurasian" tag, as supposedly we're not talking about the people.



> How so?



I'm sure you can work it out if you try



> Nonsense.....that is why I clarified my comment with 'COULD'. This clearly indicated that spending on the NHS was only ONE option out of many



So a single quasi-clarification means it's *not* circular logic?
Not in my book.



> Absolute nonsense. I never claimed that they were wealthier because they weren't a member of the EU - that is a claim of the Bremainers. They are wealthy BECAUSE of the oil - the fact that, as you state, unlike the UK,  they spend their oil and gas revenue wisely, such as not frittering it away on tax reductions etc. In fact  the majority of wealthy countries are not members of the EU.



No, they're wealthy not "because of the oil", but because of the decisions they made about what to do with the income - decisions made under plebiscite, I believe.



> Nope - 'spunk' is a noun, not a verb ,and is related to pluck, or courage. It has nothing to do with investing  oil and gas revenue on social expenditure rather than making tax cuts.



"Spunk" is a noun *and* a verb, and has nothing to do with pluck or courage, unless you're an American.
It's a name for sperm, and a description of ejaculation.


----------



## Stevlin (May 3, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> What other reasons do you have for exit, other than this which doesn't really follow. As others have said, we can afford those drugs already and not paying for membership of the EU won't magically make that money available for those drugs.
> 
> (I'm falling towards exit myself in what's a pretty crap deal either way - if only for the potential of attacking EU neoliberalism and hoping that a pro-worker/socialist alliance could come out of it in the longer term both here and in Europe)


Apart from having to pay an EU subsidy, for the privilege of buying more from the EU than vice versa, I consider the free movement right to be totally inappropriate, and irresponsible  for a group of countries outside of a federation. It would be appropriate  if we were part of a USSE - but I believe that most British people would not accept that - although many of them clearly do not realise that is the undoubted ambition of the EU, despite the EU having introduced a common currency/Parliament ( with sovereign legal powers), passport, foreign embassies, looking to create their own 'army' etc. etc. I don't believe that we derive any benefit from membership of the EU - other than from trading - but we shouldn't have to pay for that. We even had to hand over British territorial fishing rights to the EU!! Many countries enjoy free trade with the EU without being a member of it - that is what I would greatly prefer - even if it involved tariffs - because it is clearly in the interests of the EU as well as the UK for this to continue.
I believe we have too many MPs now, without having to provide another trough for yet even more!!


----------



## Stevlin (May 3, 2016)

agricola said:


> Well, for a start selling off the British National Oil Company for less than it was worth just before the boom in production in the North Sea.


Well that's no different to stupidly selling off more than half of our gold reserves at a 20 year low price......but that is another example of stupidity - not courage!


----------



## agricola (May 3, 2016)

Stevlin said:


> Well that's no different to stupidly selling off more than half of our gold reserves at a 20 year low price......but that is another example of stupidity - not courage!



Well no, but of course that was another decision made by the UK government of the day without interference from Europe.


----------



## Stevlin (May 3, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> Hence the "Eurasian" tag, as supposedly we're not talking about the people..


Still irrelevant..over 90% of Turkey is in Asia - so clearly , Turkey is predominantly Asian - which is what I pointed out.


.





> I'm sure you can work it out if you try.


Doubt it - my mind isn't as twisted as yours.



.





> So a single quasi-clarification means it's *not* circular logic?
> Not in my book..


 Then you need to change your book.
.




.





> No, they're wealthy not "because of the oil", but because of the decisions they made about what to do with the income - decisions made under plebiscite, I believe..


 They needed that amount of oil prior to making those decisions did they not?



.[/QUOTE]"Spunk" is a noun *and* a verb, and has nothing to do with pluck or courage, unless you're an American.
It's a name for sperm, and a description of ejaculation.[/QUOTE] Still wrong - but that is hardly surprising. I would recommend that you buy a decent dictionary - like the OED for instance.


----------



## Stevlin (May 3, 2016)

agricola said:


> Well no, but of course that was another decision made by the UK government of the day without interference from Europe.


Well yes - but perhaps you could indicate where I cited Europe, ( presuming you meant the EU), as the culprit???


----------



## Stevlin (May 3, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> spunk in that context refers to ejaculation
> 
> i.e
> 
> he got his wages then spunked them up the wall on a pub crawl


No it doesn't - and, in any event, if used in the sentence on which I commented,  it just wouldn't make any sense! .......nor in fact in your sentence either. The  other type of ejaculation is verbal, also known as ' interjections', such as shouting ''Stop!" when someone is rabbiting on.


----------



## DotCommunist (May 3, 2016)

Stevlin said:


> No it doesn't - and, in any event, if used in the sentence on which I commented,  it just wouldn't make any sense! .......nor in fact in your sentence either. The  other type of ejaculation is verbal, also known as ' interjections', such as shouting ''Stop!" when someone is rabbiting on.


a common usage in the 19th was ejaculate as you describe- an interjection or exclamation. These days its amost solely used to refer to the male emission of semen. Look, I'm not about to argue a colloquialism with you, 'spunked' as in 'wasted with glee' has been in use in this manner for over 20 years or more. Its use in the classic sense of pluck or spirit has actually died out more or less because it refers now to semen. Words change and usages also


----------



## mauvais (May 4, 2016)

You know your argument is going well when it's reduced to the core philosophical tenet of, 'but spunk is a noun'.


----------



## newbie (May 4, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> (I'm falling towards exit myself in what's a pretty crap deal either way - if only for the potential of attacking EU neoliberalism and hoping that a pro-worker/socialist alliance could come out of it in the longer term both here and in Europe)



I can't remember whether I've already asked you or not, but no-one I have asked has answered, so here goes again.  I'm in full agreement, it is a crap deal either way and I'd love there to be that potential.  But where's the evidence that it might exist?  What possible reason is there, other than pure wishful thinking, to imagine that any such alliance is on the cards here?

And, I suppose as a supplementary since you raised it, why is Brexit more likely to improve the chances "both here and in Europe"?  To me that seems counterintuitive and to run against any notions of internationalism.  What am I missing?


----------



## stethoscope (May 4, 2016)

I think I said before that it's all rather wishful thinking on my part tbh, but it's one that I cling onto because otherwise if we're saying that EU neo-liberalism (and the clutching onto workers rights, etc. from 20 years ago that seems to be some sort of defense for staying in) is the best we're ever gonna get, that's a very depressing situation.

'Internationalism' inside the EU only cares as long as it supports capital interests. So, again, wishful thinking really, but I'd rather we at least tried through exit to derail the EU neoliberal project and attempt to create new internationalist pro-socialist alliances.


----------



## newbie (May 4, 2016)

you're right, I think you did say that before- sorry 


stethoscope said:


> I think I said before that it's all rather wishful thinking on my part tbh, but it's one that I cling onto because otherwise if we're saying that EU neo-liberalism (and the clutching onto workers rights, etc. from 20 years ago that seems to be some sort of defense for staying in) is the best we're ever gonna get, that's a very depressing situation.


massively depressing.  It's by far the strongest argument for leaving, that staying in means abandoning all hope.  I wish I didn't see the prospect of a future being mapped by Brexit victors- the nationalist right of the Tories and UKIP- as even more depressing.


> 'Internationalism' inside the EU only cares as long as it supports capital interests.


No, don't agree with that.  Very few of the progressive gains of recent decades have come from domestic struggle, mostly we've coat-tailed on initiatives from the continent (where tory/labour governments haven't opted out), and that's exactly what's happening with eg opposition to TTIP and the so-called Social Pillar that's under discussion.


----------



## stethoscope (May 4, 2016)

newbie said:


> No, don't agree with that.  Very few of the progressive gains of recent decades have come from domestic struggle, mostly we've coat-tailed on initiatives from the continent (where tory/labour governments haven't opted out), and that's exactly what's happening with eg opposition to TTIP and the so-called Social Pillar that's under discussion.



From what I've briefly read about the 'Social Pillar', it still places workers and social rights secondary to capital and labour market interests. The priority is still on access to fair markets (i.e. opening up to competition), fiscal sustainability (i.e. imposing austerity where needed), etc.


----------



## newbie (May 4, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> From what I've briefly read about the 'Social Pillar', it still places workers and social rights secondary to capital and labour market interests. The priority is still on access to fair markets (i.e. opening up to competition), fiscal sustainability (i.e. imposing austerity where needed), etc.


yep.  I don't think there's doubt that the EU institution is intent on expanding neo-liberalism. But I also don't think there's any doubt that the most expansionist elements (which historically has had the UK at the forefront) are tempered by collectivist and social improvement tendencies.  There's a balance of forces out of which comes the direction of travel, and some of the progressive forces are quite strong- which is why 'our' government has done so many opt-outs.  

That's not the case in this country and hasn't been for decades- there are very limited oppositional forces to balance neo-liberalism, and what there is is unfortunately almost entirely ineffective.

I'll predict that if we stay in no socially progressive or useful measures from the Social Pillar will be implemented here*, but the regressive ones will be. Does that prediction surprise anyone?  


* if/when it comes about, and bearing in mind it's primarily aimed at the Eurozone


----------



## nuffsaid (May 4, 2016)

Just to add my sterling two penneth. 

I worked in Brussels for 2 years for the European Commission itself and with the inside knowledge that experience gave me I am voting to leave. You may wish to believe the fear propaganda about leaving but my voting decision is based from inside knowledge, not of reading anything written by journos or spoken of from politicians and having also worked on 2 other separate occasions in other EU countries I was firmly in the remain camp.


----------



## laptop (May 4, 2016)

nuffsaid said:


> Just to add my sterling two penneth.
> 
> I worked in Brussels for 2 years for the European Commission itself and with the inside knowledge that experience gave me I am voting to leave. You may wish to believe the fear propaganda about leaving but my voting decision is based from inside knowledge, not of reading anything written by journos or spoken of from politicians and having also worked on 2 other separate occasions in other EU countries I was firmly in the remain camp.


What were you doing? Which DG?


----------



## nuffsaid (May 4, 2016)

IT Consultant - DG Education and culture.


----------



## weltweit (May 4, 2016)

nuffsaid said:


> Just to add my sterling two penneth.
> 
> I worked in Brussels for 2 years for the European Commission itself and with the inside knowledge that experience gave me I am voting to leave. You may wish to believe the fear propaganda about leaving but my voting decision is based from inside knowledge, not of reading anything written by journos or spoken of from politicians and having also worked on 2 other separate occasions in other EU countries I was firmly in the remain camp.


No, that isn't nuffsaid  so you have inside knowledge and are voting out, but what knowledge do you have and why does it persuade you to vote out?


----------



## laptop (May 4, 2016)

nuffsaid said:


> IT Consultant - DG Education and culture.


Should we have a vote to exit IT consultancy?


----------



## nuffsaid (May 4, 2016)

laptop said:


> Should we have a vote to exit IT consultancy?



Well I'm working to be able to exit it as soon as possible.


----------



## nuffsaid (May 4, 2016)

weltweit said:


> No, that isn't nuffsaid  so you have inside knowledge and are voting out, but what knowledge do you have and why does it persuade you to vote out?



Just my experience of how things were run, the vast waste of taxpayers money overall for little or no gain to member states, how people worked and treated their jobs there, the lack of accountability, inefficiencies etc, etc. Organised crime trawls through all funding application possibilities and makes up bogus claims using well paid lawyers to sift through their controls to milk it for free money. I was employed on a project that was supposed to have been live in 2005 - I wasn't employed to work on it until 2008 and by 2010 it was canned - millions wasted. The status quo isn't working and hasn't for some time, Greece was a vanity exercise and the Euro was never going to be equal across vastly differing economies, Germany had to bail it out to keep the project afloat. Do I really need to mention how the migration crisis has been handled? Ultimately each state will look after itself when the chips are down.

If a vote to leave is a jump in the dark so is a vote to stay as no-one knows the level of Federal control that the UK could come under or what the future of the EU will be. There is a window of opportunity to get out now. If you're on the Titanic do you go to the bar, or up on deck to checkout the lifeboat situation?

If people that think voting to stay is good because they think it's the Left's view then they should remember that Labour were against joining the EEC. - BBC ON THIS DAY | 26 | 1975: Labour votes to leave the EEC The choice shouldn't be politicised, it should be based on common sense and as many facts as you can review.

If the majority of Big-businesses want you to do something, do you really think it's for your best interest?


----------



## gosub (May 4, 2016)

nuffsaid said:


> Just my experience of how things were run, the vast waste of taxpayers money overall for little or no gain to member states, how people worked and treated their jobs there, the lack of accountability, inefficiencies etc, etc. Organised crime trawls through all funding application possibilities and makes up bogus claims using well paid lawyers to sift through their controls to milk it for free money. I was employed on a project that was supposed to have been live in 2005 - I wasn't employed to work on it until 2008 and by 2010 it was canned - millions wasted. The status quo isn't working and hasn't for some time, Greece was a vanity exercise and the Euro was never going to be equal across vastly differing economies, Germany had to bail it out to keep the project afloat. Do I really need to mention how the migration crisis has been handled? Ultimately each state will look after itself when the chips are down.
> 
> If a vote to leave is a jump in the dark so is a vote to stay as no-one knows the level of Federal control that the UK could come under or what the future of the EU will be. There is a window of opportunity to get out now. If you're on the Titanic do you go to the bar, or up on deck to checkout the lifeboat situation?
> 
> ...


As a matter of balance have got UK public sector experience as well? Coz they ain't got the best reputation either.


----------



## nuffsaid (May 4, 2016)

gosub said:


> As a matter of balance have got UK public sector experience as well? Coz they ain't got the best reputation either.



Yes I've worked for the NHS, Legal Services Commission, local Govt. and HMRC, and yes likewise at many times but we can vote to leave the EU.


----------



## William of Walworth (May 4, 2016)

William of Walworth said:
			
		

> The above makes you sound far too uncritically Brexit to be worth bothering with to be honest.
> 
> I only asked how successful you thought your campaign's leadership was being so far.





Santino said:


> How successful has _your _campaign's leadership been?



I resent the assumption that you're (deliberately?  ) making there ... 

'Remain' isn't MY campaign 

My reason for being even _slightly_ inclined to vote 'Remain' myself is mostly negative -- anti-Brexitism, and even more, scepticism that Brexit will make matters much (any?) better for any leftie/radical/anto-capitalist/Trade Unionist. 

I'm fully aware there are plenty of solid criticisms of the EU, of the Remain campaign, and most of all its establishment leaders. I've indicated that I think that earlier up in this thread too.

FWIW to answer your dodgy question, I think both campaigns are going pretty badly for both sides so far.


----------



## gosub (May 4, 2016)

nuffsaid said:


> Yes I've worked for the NHS, Legal Services Commission, local Govt. and HMRC, and yes likewise at many times but we can vote to leave the EU.


There was me thinking the not publishing accounts might give scope for even more rotten arrangements.


----------



## weltweit (May 4, 2016)

nuffsaid said:


> .. If the majority of Big-businesses want you to do something, do you really think it's for your best interest?


I depends rather on why they want something. I suspect quite a few want us to stay in to avoid them having to make expensive moves to the continent to remain in the EU if we were to leave.


----------



## gosub (May 4, 2016)

weltweit said:


> I depends rather on why they want something. I suspect quite a few want us to stay in to avoid them having to make expensive moves to the continent to remain in the EU if we were to leave.


what the Single Market?or the EU?


----------



## weltweit (May 4, 2016)

gosub said:


> what the Single Market?or the EU?


Yes, companies like Nissan, Honda, Airbus, Dyson, etc etc will be doing more business on the continent than in the UK. They don't want the risk of tarrif barriers.


----------



## gosub (May 4, 2016)

what are the tariff barriers within the single market?


----------



## Obediah Marsh (May 4, 2016)

The rise of Trump across the water affects this debate. This time next year Europe and the U.S. may well be in a trade war. Being in the EU will cushion Britain from the worst effects of that.


----------



## redsquirrel (May 4, 2016)

Nice to see that the arguments for remaining have been reduced to neo-liberal bullshit.

Don't want to let things stand in the way of free-trade now do we.


----------



## weltweit (May 4, 2016)

gosub said:


> what are the tariff barriers within the single market?


There aren't any within it, I was suggesting if we exit the single market there could be some then.


----------



## gosub (May 4, 2016)

weltweit said:


> There aren't any within it, I was suggesting if we exit the single market there could be some then.



How do you reckon that arrangement could be sorted in the 2 year window?


----------



## weltweit (May 4, 2016)

gosub said:


> How do you reckon that arrangement could be sorted in the 2 year window?


Where does this 2 years come from?


----------



## laptop (May 4, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> Nice to see that the arguments for remaining have been reduced to neo-liberal bullshit.
> 
> Don't want to let things stand in the way of free-trade now do we.



Er, free trade is not the same as neo-liberalism.

If anything, it's its fig-leaf.


----------



## gosub (May 4, 2016)

weltweit said:


> Where does this 2 years come from?


Article 50, unless all parties unanimously agree to extend.


----------



## Stevlin (May 4, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> a common usage in the 19th was ejaculate as you describe- an interjection or exclamation. These days its amost solely used to refer to the male emission of semen. Look, I'm not about to argue a colloquialism with you, 'spunked' as in 'wasted with glee' has been in use in this manner for over 20 years or more. Its use in the classic sense of pluck or spirit has actually died out more or less because it refers now to semen. Words change and usages also


I stand corrected Dot - and I agree that words and their meaning do change over time,  so I guess I must have led a sheltered life... one does occasionally still see the use of 'spunk' in reference to courage though .......but maybe the books that I read are over 20 years old!!  ;0)


----------



## weltweit (May 4, 2016)

gosub said:


> Article 50, unless all parties unanimously agree to extend.


If I am honest I haven't given much thought to the negotiations needed if Britain votes out. Also not being a lawyer I don't know about legal changes that may be necessary. I know if we want to retain tariff free access to the market we will have to negotiate and will likely have to abide by the rules and pay to belong, but that is as far as I go.


----------



## bi0boy (May 4, 2016)

nuffsaid said:


> Just my experience of how things were run, the vast waste of taxpayers money overall for little or no gain to member states, how people worked and treated their jobs there, the lack of accountability, inefficiencies etc, etc. Organised crime trawls through all funding application possibilities and makes up bogus claims using well paid lawyers to sift through their controls to milk it for free money. I was employed on a project that was supposed to have been live in 2005 - I wasn't employed to work on it until 2008 and by 2010 it was canned - millions wasted. The status quo isn't working and hasn't for some time, Greece was a vanity exercise and the Euro was never going to be equal across vastly differing economies, Germany had to bail it out to keep the project afloat. Do I really need to mention how the migration crisis has been handled? Ultimately each state will look after itself when the chips are down.
> 
> If a vote to leave is a jump in the dark so is a vote to stay as no-one knows the level of Federal control that the UK could come under or what the future of the EU will be. There is a window of opportunity to get out now. If you're on the Titanic do you go to the bar, or up on deck to checkout the lifeboat situation?
> 
> ...


----------



## gosub (May 4, 2016)

weltweit said:


> If I am honest I haven't given much thought to the negotiations needed if Britain votes out. Also not being a lawyer I don't know about legal changes that may be necessary. I know if we want to retain tariff free access to the market we will have to negotiate and will likely have to abide by the rules and pay to belong, but that is as far as I go.


The staying in EEA through EFTAroute is the only one viable in the time frame where get back our seat on the global tables  (that technically barriers to trade set benchmark for everything other than environmental/H&S/national security. ) Immigration lead lot don't like coz freedom of movement pillar of single market)  so that might be transitional (heisenburg applies).  But seems rational to expect a referendum for a subsequent change.  I might listen to your worries about Airbus and Nissan then.  As is Honda's got more savvy


----------



## coley (May 4, 2016)

Its worth mentioning that most of the people signing open letters for the "remain campaign" were also petitioning  heavily for us to join the Euro, doesn't say a lot for their judgment.


----------



## gosub (May 5, 2016)

coley said:


> Its worth mentioning that most of the people signing open letters for the "remain campaign" were also petitioning  heavily for us to join the Euro, doesn't say a lot for their judgment.


Yes but no, there are some cunts,  and shit judgement calls. But I have cry Wolf worries for referendum after this whichever type of outer European orbit that's about.


----------



## coley (May 5, 2016)

gosub said:


> Yes but no, there are some cunts,  and shit judgement calls. But I have cry Wolf worries for referendum after this whichever type of outer European orbit that's about.


Why worry, the Turks are going to be allowed visa free travel around Europe without even bothering to join the EU, our masters know best.


----------



## gosub (May 5, 2016)

coley said:


> Why worry, the Turks are going to be allowed visa free travel around Europe without even bothering to join the EU, our masters know best.


Coz at the end of the story there is a wolf,... At that stage   you could be saying well they were wrong about the EUro they stayed when we left the EU, who cares what they say now.... Not that we can't have a shit list Europe's second larget car manufacturers telling it's employees to vote In else they lose influence on EUropean standards.  If put that on a shit list if we want to move towards a more transparent and accountable relationship with corporatism.
Or are happy with thinking it's you may build a sizable minority of the cars throughout Europe,  but hour efforts to bring sector whatever to heel were not satisfactory consider yourselves spurned. (why else would the multi national producing cars throughout the EU lose influence?) 


I say that cos transparency and accountability cuts both ways


----------



## mauvais (May 5, 2016)

nuffsaid said:


> Organised crime trawls through all funding application possibilities and makes up bogus claims using well paid lawyers to sift through their controls to milk it for free money.


Ever worked in the UK defence industry?



nuffsaid said:


> I was employed on a project that was supposed to have been live in 2005 - I wasn't employed to work on it until 2008 and by 2010 it was canned - millions wasted.


Don't remember Accenture and CfH NHS IT? Or again the defence and national security industry - e.g. Bowman, Nimrod, etc.

I'm sure the EU versions of these disasters are scaled up accordingly - but what you describe is something Britain is perfectly adept and well practiced at doing on its own.


----------



## newbie (May 5, 2016)

.. or Lambeth or Puddleton on the Wold parish council.  In fact any public institution with money to disburse is prey for inefficiency, corruption, poor decision making, self interest, bad management and so on.  And, of course, major IT project overrun is a category of failure in itself. And I quite like that the corporations are never mentioned in these discussions, like they're somehow immune.

However scale does matter, and the point nuffsaid made is worth reiterating, we actually have the (unique) opportunity to sort-of quit some aspects of the EU project- to deliver a vote of no confidence.  If the ref was just about corruption it would be a landslide.


----------



## nuffsaid (May 5, 2016)

mauvais said:


> Ever worked in the UK defence industry?
> 
> Don't remember Accenture and CfH NHS IT? Or again the defence and national security industry - e.g. Bowman, Nimrod, etc.
> 
> I'm sure the EU versions of these disasters are scaled up accordingly - but what you describe is something Britain is perfectly adept and well practiced at doing on its own.



Never worked in the defence industry - Sure the UK can and does cock these things up, but as mentioned we can vote to stop paying into the EU's ones. This isn't my only reason to vote leave btw, I was just providing insight into how much your taxes are wasted. The EU gave me a steady job for the worst 2 years after the financial crash - thanks for your contributions on that, I bought a 2-seater convertible when I came back.


----------



## gosub (May 5, 2016)

As we’ve got on to payment for access to the Single Market and concerns over EU and corruption…

Norway’s arrangement as a EEA EFTA member is different, it chips into running the specific cherry picked Agencies its part of, and things like Erasmus and Scientific Research that it wants to participate in, but it doesn’t get billed for access to the Single Market.  Well not directly and not through the EU.  

About 40% of their costs of being in the Single Market stems from the EEA’s stated aim to reduce social and Economic disparity. But the money doesn’t go to the EU, or rather through the EU.  That money, calculated based of the relative size of the members GDP (but not divided by population) is allocated through the Norway and EEA grants scheme and goes specifically to the poorest EU member states.  Not one penny gets spent helping a French goose farmer make fois gras.  Where it does go can be found here :  Frontpage - EEA Grants.


----------



## ffsear (May 6, 2016)

Well that's the OUT campaign ruined then!.....
Trump Says Britain Is Better Off Outside EU


----------



## Corax (May 22, 2016)

We should Bremain - but also nuke France.


----------



## weltweit (May 22, 2016)

Corax said:


> We should Bremain - but also nuke France.


no no, that would be mad, nuke Portugal - they are defenceless!


----------



## LDC (May 22, 2016)

A contribution towards the argument to vote 'remain' from a member of Plan C... 
Damned if You Leave, Damned if You Remain: The Europe Referendum Or What to Do in the Absence of a ‘Left Option’?


----------



## Corax (May 22, 2016)

weltweit said:


> no no, that would be mad, nuke Portugal - they are defenceless!


Yeah, but they've practically legalised weed, so they get a stay of execution.  Andorra maybe?


----------



## Mr.Bishie (May 22, 2016)

> *Priti Patel reveals Leave campaign agenda to reduce workers’ rights, says TUC*


----------



## Brainaddict (May 22, 2016)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> A contribution towards the argument to vote 'remain' from a member of Plan C...
> Damned if You Leave, Damned if You Remain: The Europe Referendum Or What to Do in the Absence of a ‘Left Option’?



This is similar to my position:



> Discussions of whether we want Lexit or a Left Europe amount to little more than an intellectual game, for the forces that would bring either into being do not exist. Whilst you may vote this or that way because of solid progressive principles and carefully considered analysis, the dominant social forces mean that your ballot will be ‘swept up’ in an altogether different game. This game is being played between deluded austerity monomaniacs touting their non-solution to capitalist crisis, and a bunch of xenophobic reactionaries whose political-economic strategy will be equally toothless in either diagnosing or addressing systemic economic problems.
> 
> [...]In the choice between these two miserable options, a vote to ‘remain’ is perhaps the least-worst option. But frankly, it’s a shit option.


----------



## kebabking (May 22, 2016)

weltweit said:


> no no, that would be mad, nuke Portugal - they are defenceless!



Portugal is, I believe, one if the few countries in Europe - or anywhere else - we've not had a war with in the last 600 years or so...

Say 'war with Portugal', just say it outloud, if under your breath if in polite company, and what do you feel? Nothing, just a 'meh..'.

Now, say 'war with France'. Different isn't it? You want to say it again don't you - but louder, harder, you want to open an upstairs window and shout it across the street and then run to your local church and set the bells ringing! 'War with France', just saying it fills your chest, tightens the sinews, makes you feel like a Lion - 'War with France', its why language was invented, why we crawled from the seas, it is man's natural condition.

War with Portugal my fucking hoop.


----------



## dylanredefined (May 22, 2016)

kebabking said:


> Portugal is, I believe, one if the few countries in Europe - or anywhere else - we've not had a war with in the last 600 years or so...
> 
> Say 'war with Portugal', just say it outloud, if under your breath if in polite company, and what do you feel? Nothing, just a 'meh..'.
> 
> ...



  Also that's where the port is. Though considering how drunk i got last weekend no more port would be a good thing for me


----------



## Corax (May 22, 2016)

kebabking said:


> *Portugal is, I believe, one if the few countries in Europe - or anywhere else - we've not had a war with in the last 600 years or so...*
> 
> Say 'war with Portugal', just say it outloud, if under your breath if in polite company, and what do you feel? Nothing, just a 'meh..'.
> 
> ...


On the other hand, it's clearly their turn.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (May 22, 2016)

Brainaddict said:


> This is similar to my position:


And mine. 

This is what tilts me conclusively away from voting leave, even if it's only towards cock-and-balls:



> Given the current balance of forces, neither staying nor leaving the EU are attractive options, but fueling the fire of nationalist movements will certainly make the job of progressive leftists – not to mention everyday existence – infinitely harder.



I am very concerned about the kind of people who would seize power to shape a post-EU UK. Doesn't mean I'm not also concerned about the people who would remain in power in a stay-in-the-EU UK. But I think the article is dead right that this referendum isn't the battleground. Neither result promises anything other than different versions of more of the same, so any vote is essentially a negative one, and delivering a defeat to nationalists is a negative reason to vote stay. Bit like voting Khan in the London mayoral election in order to contribute towards the downfall of the racist Zac Goldsmith. Not about how great Khan is, simply a means of producing a defeat for a racist. That crumb was all that was on offer - the important issues to do with housing in London, for instance, remain untouched either way.


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## weltweit (May 22, 2016)

Got my polling card, I am definitely voting!


----------



## DotCommunist (May 22, 2016)

weltweit said:


> Got my polling card, I am definitely voting!


i'm voting out specifically to null your vote


----------



## weltweit (May 22, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> i'm voting out specifically to null your vote


I will be voting early, and voting often


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## William of Walworth (May 23, 2016)

Deadline for getting your postal votes organised is 8th June I'm pretty sure. So for those who'll be away on the 23rd, eg at Glastonbury, we need to get our shit together.

I really like that Plan C article that LynnDoyleCooper posted.


----------



## SpookyFrank (May 23, 2016)

William of Walworth said:


> I really like that Plan C article that LynnDoyleCooper posted.



It's written by someone called Bertie though. Not sure I can get past that tbh.


----------



## William of Walworth (May 23, 2016)

I don't care about Bertie, but I confess to knowing nothing about who the Plan C organisation are .....


----------



## ffsear (May 23, 2016)

Bookies Current odds.

1/4 to remain  (80% chance)
7/2 to leave	(20% Chance)

*ignoring the bookie over round as 7/2 is actually 22.2% probability.


----------



## Sirena (May 23, 2016)

Just randomly (because I will be a vote-abstainer), here's a nice TV commercial from a few years ago, made for a phone company but could apply to those who wish greater communication.  Good steampunky feel, too....


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 2, 2016)

mauvais said:


> You know your argument is going well when it's reduced to the core philosophical tenet of, 'but spunk is a noun'.


hilariously in the late 90s the salty meaning hadn't caught on in australia land so you'd occaisonally see the word used in its original context on Nieghbours and laugh so hard by the time you got your breath back Fresh Prince of Bel Air was on


----------



## SaskiaJayne (Jun 2, 2016)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> A contribution towards the argument to vote 'remain' from a member of Plan C...
> Damned if You Leave, Damned if You Remain: The Europe Referendum Or What to Do in the Absence of a ‘Left Option’?


That is an excellent read, it has certainly given me more clarity of thought. It properly articulates what I have been trying to work out in my own head & struggling with. Not all us urban posters can be clear thinking intellectuals & it has certainly helped me collect my thoughts.


----------



## William of Walworth (Jun 2, 2016)

I liked that article a lot as well. But.

However sound the 'corporate interests always win whatever the result' arguments are, and they *are* compelling, I simply can't bring myself to even _think_ about voting Brexit. For largely the same reasons as in that article.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Jun 2, 2016)

SaskiaJayne said:


> That is an excellent read, it has certainly given me more clarity of thought. It properly articulates what I have been trying to work out in my own head & struggling with. Not all us urban posters can be clear thinking intellectuals & it has certainly helped me collect my thoughts.


 
yes - the position



> In the choice between these two miserable options, a vote to ‘remain’ is perhaps the least-worst option. But frankly, it’s a shit option


 
is vaguely what i'm tending towards

although i can see merit in some of the 'leave' arguments

and the idea of drawing something rude on the ballot paper

bremeh


----------



## Hocus Eye. (Jun 2, 2016)

Yes, I have come to similar conclusions to that article. There is no left option but encouraging the Brexit types is the worse option. Just look at the characters who inhabit that tendency and weep. I will not align myself with Johnson, Gove, Farage  et al even though Cameron and Osborne are not people you would want to be associated with.


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Jun 2, 2016)

Anyone who talks about "Another Europe", a "Social Europe", transforming the EU or reforming the EU should immediately be written off as a fool who doesn't understand what the EU is or a knave who does understand it but is deliberately lying. There are rational arguments to be made for voting Remain, whether you agree with them or not, but those rational arguments are necessarily grounded entirely in pessimism. Anyone claiming that the EU can be turned into something other than the EU if only Britain stays involved is a gobshite.


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## William of Walworth (Jun 2, 2016)

Hocus Eye. said:


> Yes, I have come to similar conclusions to that article. There is no left option but encouraging the Brexit types is the worse option. Just look at the characters who inhabit that tendency and weep. I will not align myself with Johnson, Gove, Farage  et al even though Cameron and Osborne are not people you would want to be associated with.




Spot on Hocus Eye.

Every single word of the above I agree with.


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## Hocus Eye. (Jun 2, 2016)

William of Walworth said:


> Spot on Hocus Eye.
> 
> Every single word of the above I agree with.


Thanks William, I have been wrestling with these problems for a while.


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## free spirit (Jun 2, 2016)

Nigel Irritable said:


> Anyone who talks about "Another Europe", a "Social Europe", transforming the EU or reforming the EU should immediately be written off as a fool who doesn't understand what the EU is or a knave who does understand it but is deliberately lying. There are rational arguments to be made for voting Remain, whether you agree with them or not, but those rational arguments are necessarily grounded entirely in pessimism. Anyone claiming that the EU can be turned into something other than the EU if only Britain stays involved is a gobshite.


The EU's been changed significantly in the past, why is it now unable to change in the future?

Austerity is proving to be such a disastrous policy across Europe that I really can't see that it's not going to get ditched at some point in the next few years, with the emphasis returning to growth and job creation instead.


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## Hocus Eye. (Jun 2, 2016)

free spirit said:


> The EU's been changed significantly in the past, why is it now unable to change in the future?
> 
> Austerity is proving to be such a disastrous policy across Europe that I really can't see that it's not going to get ditched at some point in the next few years, with the emphasis returning to growth and job creation instead.


And then you woke up. It had all been a dream.


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## free spirit (Jun 3, 2016)

Hocus Eye. said:


> And then you woke up. It had all been a dream.


you think?

The neoliberal austerity consensus is showing signs of crumbling electorally across much of Europe already, now the IMF is writing reports basically saying they got it wrong. I can see the writing on the wall for it, and it'd be much more likely to go if the UK stayed in and a Corbyn labour took power here than without us. It won't die easily, but I can't see that permanent stagnation and huge unemployment levels are going to be tolerated for much longer.

Not that the EU austerity policies directly impact on us directly anyway, the UK government has been doing it voluntarily.


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## Nigel Irritable (Jun 3, 2016)

free spirit said:


> The EU's been changed significantly in the past, why is it now unable to change in the future?



The EU is an agreement between the ruling classes of Europe to march in lockstep towards a neoliberal dystopia, and to brutalise any country that straggles along the way. It has developed as it has because moving towards that dystopia in a more or less orderly manner has been a shared goal of all of Western Europe's governments. That is each change, or more precisely each development, has been the joint policy of each state.

Reversing that course is not a matter of winning an election, as say a left reformist national government might be voted in to replace a bog standard neo-liberal one. To change the EU's institutions and rules in significant ways requires not simply electing a majority to the European Parliament with these new imaginary goals, but also electing like-minded governments in each and every country simultaneously, so as to avoid the veto powers of the Council of Europe. And not only that, it requires maintaining those governments long enough to replace the Commission. And then maintaining all of that long enough to rewrite EU legislation, dismantle or drastically alter it's major institutions , write new Treaties undoing significant portions of the old ones and ratify them in every member state. Anyone who thinks that this is an achievable goal is a fantasist of the silliest kind.

One of the more startling things about watching the debate in Britain is just how completely fucking ignorant of the structures of the EU most of the participants in the debate are - on this side of the Irish Sea we have referendums on each Treaty (so one every four or five years), so those who are put forward to make an argument for any side do at least generally know what they are talking about. If only because they don't have a choice in the matter. In Britain there is no such background understanding so the debate generally involves next to no detail about the actual EU and its actual institutions. Instead you get people mouthing off about the European Court of Human Rights (not an EU institution) on the Leave side or making dopey analogies with changing the direction of a national government on the Remain side.


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## free spirit (Jun 3, 2016)

Nigel Irritable said:


> The EU is an agreement between the ruling classes of Europe to march in lockstep towards a neoliberal dystopia,


where do the elements of the EU that have continued to introduce and strengthen protections on workers rights, social and environmental protections fit into this neoliberal dystopia?

Actually much of the EU's core documents aren't particularly neoliberal in outlook, the core bit that is being the stability and growth pact bit of the Maastrict treaty which is badly misnamed as it contains no requirements about growth.

As the UK has no penalties that can be applied to it for failing to adhere to it's clauses, then it's not even directly relevant to the UK, but the UK if it stayed and turned against austerity could play a significant role in helping to expose the economic illiteracy behind it.

Most of the rest of the EU's key documents are more compatable with the kind of post war keynesian version of capitalism than the current neolieral / austerity based model. If Greece hadn't capitulated I suspect Varoufakis intended to challenge the enforced austerity policies as being incompatible with these.

Here are a few examples of some of the core texts that to my mind really aren't neoliberal, at least not in the sense pushed by the US based neoliberal institutions such as the IMF, WTO. And to my mind they're incompatible with the austerity policies that have been pushed on Greece, Spain, Ireland, Portugal.



> 1. The Union's aim is to promote peace, its values and the well-being of its peoples.
> 
> 3. The Union shall establish an internal market. It shall work for the sustainable development of Europe *based on balanced economic growth* and price stability, a highly competitive social market economy, *aiming at full employment and social progress, and a high level of protection and improvement of the quality of the environment.* It shall promote scientific and technological advance. It shall combat social exclusion and discrimination, and shall promote social justice and protection, equality between women and men, solidarity between generations and protection of the rights of the child.
> 
> *It shall promote economic, social and territorial cohesion, and solidarity among Member States.* It shall respect its rich cultural and linguistic diversity, and shall ensure that Europe's cultural heritage is safeguarded and enhanced.


http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:C:2008:115:0013:0045:en:PDF



> Article 28
> 
> Right of collective bargaining and action
> 
> ...



To me, this doesn't look like the workings of an organisations that's committed to marching in lockstep to a neoliberal vision of the future, nor one that would require every treaty to be rewritten to dump the current austerity fad. It's basically only the Maastricht treaty that creates the basis for austerity policies being enforced, so it's really just one element of one treaty that needs to be rewritten in order to kill the austerity version of the EU off for good.


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## free spirit (Jun 3, 2016)

Actually it looks like the European Commission have updated their internal guidelines to basically overcome the issue of counter cyclical austerity being imposed because of strict adherence to the fiscal limits of the stability and growth pact, so it may even not need a treaty change for the EU to dump austerity as a reaction to budget deficits in times of deep recession. It's not quite keynesian, but it's a lot closer to it than the interpretation used when destroying the economies of Greece, Spain, Ireland, Portugal in recent years.



> In particular, Article 3 states that “[…] In the case of a severe economic downturn in the euro area or in the Union as a whole, the Council may also decide, on a recommendation from the Commission, to adopt a revised recommendation under Article 126(7) TFEU provided that this does not endanger fiscal sustainability in the medium term.”





> Summary in the case of severe economic downturn The Commission considers that the provisions of the Pact addressing a severe economic downturn in the euro area or in the EU as a whole should be used when necessary.





> In exceptionally bad times, interpreted as an output gap below -4 % or when real GDP contracts, all Member States, irrespective of their debt levels, would be temporarily exempted from making any fiscal effort.



http://ec.europa.eu/economy_finance...mmunication_sgp_flexibility_guidelines_en.pdf


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## free spirit (Jun 3, 2016)

That to me looks like a pretty major change of policy for an organisation that is supposedly incapable of change.


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## Hocus Eye. (Jun 3, 2016)

Free spirit I agree with a lot of what you say. Austerity policies (and that is what they are, not some inevitable outcome of events) were in modern times mostly reinforced by the 2008 banking crash. For most of my life Britain was under the cosh of austerity as promoted by various Tory governments. In the 1960's there was much talk of Britain importing too many manufactured goods and failing to export enough. However in those days they left out of account the money we earned in the financial sector which was significant. It became clear that this was propaganda.

Austerity is a matter of policy, not some inevitable fact of life.


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## Nigel Irritable (Jun 3, 2016)

free spirit said:


> where do the elements of the EU that have continued to introduce and strengthen protections on workers rights, social and environmental protections fit into this neoliberal dystopia?



Good fucking God, quotations from meaningless articles outlining pieties on worker's rights as if they had any bearing on anything. Even Irish Labour Party supporters don't think that they can get away with that kind of shit any more. I hadn't realised I was in a discussion with someone living in a parallel universe and have absolutely no intention of acting as your tour guide to this world, so you will have to make to do with this one post explaining the difference between your arse and your elbow.

Lets take your fantasy at face value for a moment: Let's say that the entire neoliberal structure of the EU just stems from the Maastricht Treaty. What process do you think has to be undergone to drastically alter that Treaty? I'll give you a hint: It is exactly as I've outlined, long term, unanimous agreement among simultaneously elected left wing governments in all 27 EU member states over a period of years. Even one country which hasn't been swept along by the power of your imagination can block any such change forever. Of course, it isn't just the Maastricht Treaty that's the problem, but even if it was "Another Europe" would be an impossibility.

At it happens, the EU made the latest of its direct interventions into Irish politics this week. The Irish government has suffered a big setback. A mass movement of non-payment has forced the suspension of water charges, a regressive tax aimed at shifting the burden of taxation onto the lower paid and privatising a public service. The Commission responded by announcing that water charges are mandatory under EU law and that Ireland would have escalating fines levied against it if it doesn't reimpose the charges. This is what the EU exists to do, not to make it more convenient for people to go on holiday to Majorca or to protect worker's rights, you fucking idiot.

As I've said, there are rational arguments to be made for voting Remain, but these are contextual arguments about the current state of British politics. Any positive argument that the EU can be changed into something other than a neoliberal pact between the ruling classes of Europe is one that can only be made by someone who is ignorant, someone who hasn't thought it through or someone who is deliberately lying to people.


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## DotCommunist (Jun 3, 2016)

even the likes of hague, who is an innie are going 'its a clusterfuck but we can't leave cos we'll be double fucked if we do' which is hardly a convincing argument for me.


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## redsquirrel (Jun 3, 2016)

Nigel Irritable said:


> Good fucking God, quotations from meaningless articles outlining pieties on worker's rights as if they had any bearing on anything. Even Irish Labour Party supporters don't think that they can get away with that kind of shit any more. I hadn't realised I was in a discussion with someone living in a parallel universe and have absolutely no intention of acting as your tour guide to this world, so you will have to make to do with this one post explaining the difference between your arse and your elbow.


He's a former LibDem/current Green activist, i.e. exactly the type of wanker that loves the EU and is deluded enough to believe it helps workers (while working for a party that employs scab labour).


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## pocketscience (Jun 3, 2016)

free spirit said:


> The EU's been changed significantly in the past, why is it now unable to change in the future?
> 
> Austerity is proving to be such a disastrous policy across Europe that I really can't see that it's not going to get ditched at some point in the next few years, with the emphasis returning to growth and job creation instead.


Germany's fine with implementing further austerity on the peripherel states, perpetuating their dependence and misery. There's never been such an inbalance of power in the Eu as  now, and Germany's pulling away from France fast. So to make change Germany needs to concede it's dominant status which, if you know how the Germans are, you'll know it just ain't going to happen.


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## girasol (Jun 3, 2016)

I still don't know what I'm going to vote for   Initially I wanted out, but lately I'm leaning towards staying, but given that I'm still not convinced either way, is abstaining just cowardly?  I'm usually ok with making decisions but this one seems so important I'm really feeling the weight of it and can't make my mind up. 

For me, in a nutshell, the main reason for staying is freedom of movement.  The main reason for leaving are the imposed austerity measures.  I know it's simplistic but I had to distil it to something this basic to give me clarity, and I'd imagine others will too.

Staying or going isn't going to stop neo-liberalist polices, globalisation or the fact that the Tories are in power and might continue to be so for sometime, so in the end that became irrelevant.

edit: workers rights, those have been eroded for sometime now, even being in the EU - it's a general economic system issue, rather than something that will radically change because we are in or out of Europe...


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## belboid (Jun 3, 2016)

After seeing the latest from the vile official Leave campaign, and hearing the most pathetic drivel from 'left' antis, who apparently know exactly how the future is going to pan out and that there will are no dangers from voting leave whatsoever, I was almost tempted to switch and vote in. Fortunately I then went out with some liberal innies, who came out with a string of catastrophes that would befall Europe if we left (war between NATO members!), so Out it still is


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## brogdale (Jun 3, 2016)

belboid said:


> After seeing the latest from the vile official Leave campaign, and hearing the most pathetic drivel from 'left' antis, who apparently know exactly how the future is going to pan out and that there will are no dangers from voting leave whatsoever, I was almost tempted to switch and vote in. Fortunately I then went out with some liberal innies, who came out with a string of catastrophes that would befall Europe if we left (war between NATO members!), so Out it still is


Out of interest, why are you so intent on joining in with this farce?


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## belboid (Jun 3, 2016)

girasol said:


> I still don't know what I'm going to vote for   Initially I wanted out, but lately I'm leaning towards staying, but given that I'm still not convinced either way, is abstaining just cowardly?


Sorry, but 'yes' - make your bloody mind up!



> For me, in a nutshell, the main reason for staying is freedom of movement.  The main reason for leaving are the imposed austerity measures.  I know it's simplistic but I had to distil it to something this basic to give me clarity, and I'd imagine others will too.


pretty good balance of options, imo. Thing is, we will be overwhelmingly likely to retain freedom of movement anyway. Even amongst the mainstream leavers there isn't a majority for leaving the single market, which means maintaining the 'four freedoms' at least in the medium term. Long term everything is up for grabs anyway, in or out


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## belboid (Jun 3, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Out of interest, why are you so intent on joining in with this farce?


What's the alternative, _abstain_?  Only dithering liberals and ultra left frauds support abstaining.


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## weltweit (Jun 3, 2016)

Just looking at the kind of people prominent in the brexit campaign keeps me firmly in remain.


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## two sheds (Jun 3, 2016)

belboid said:


> What's the alternative, _abstain_?  Only dithering liberals and ultra left frauds support abstaining.



True that.

Only dithering liberals and ultra left frauds support remaining, too.

And only dithering liberals and ultra left frauds support leaving.


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## brogdale (Jun 3, 2016)

belboid said:


> What's the alternative, _abstain_?  Only dithering liberals and ultra left frauds support abstaining.


Not voting is a perfectly clear-headed response if you support/favour neither proposition or outcome.


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## belboid (Jun 3, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Not voting is a perfectly clear-headed response if you support/favour neither proposition or outcome.


Naah, it's an atrocious position, worst of the lot. There's no shroedinger's EU available. One of the two positions will have a greater negative impact upon the international working class. Neither will solve everything. Voting will not give added credence to 'the system' - so fuck it, grit your teeth and make your bloody mind up!


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## brogdale (Jun 3, 2016)

belboid said:


> Naah, it's an atrocious position, worst of the lot. There's no shroedinger's EU available. One of the two positions will have a greater negative impact upon the international working class. Neither will solve everything. Voting will not give added credence to 'the system' - so fuck it, grit your teeth and make your bloody mind up!


Can't agree that not voting is an "atrocious" or "worst" position. 

The fact that you appear to be unable to come to a personal decision about which of the alternatives offer the least worst impact upon the working class helps to demonstrate the exercise in false-consciousness for what it is.


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## girasol (Jun 3, 2016)

belboid said:


> Sorry, but 'yes' - make your bloody mind up!
> 
> 
> pretty good balance of options, imo. Thing is, we will be overwhelmingly likely to retain freedom of movement anyway. Even amongst the mainstream leavers there isn't a majority for leaving the single market, which means maintaining the 'four freedoms' at least in the medium term. Long term everything is up for grabs anyway, in or out



So, you are basically saying 'out'? (sorry haven't read the whole thread, just bits and bobs).  Edit: yes, you are saying 'out', just caught up. 

I think not voting is a perfectly course of action if the options presented are dire.  Having said that I've always voted when given the chance, for the least shite option   But I still can't figure out the least shite option.


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## belboid (Jun 3, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Can't agree that not voting is an "atrocious" or "worst" position.
> 
> The fact that you appear to be unable to come to a personal decision about which of the alternatives offer the least worst impact upon the working class helps to demonstrate the exercise in false-consciousness for what it is.


False consciousness? Oh dear. Nonsense. It simply means it's a finely balanced decision. Get off the bloody fence


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## newbie (Jun 3, 2016)

What's the hurry? there's another 3 weeks or so.  issues are still being explored and tories are still knifing each other.


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## Pickman's model (Jun 3, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Can't agree that not voting is an "atrocious" or "worst" position.
> 
> The fact that you appear to be unable to come to a personal decision about which of the alternatives offer the least worst impact upon the working class helps to demonstrate the exercise in false-consciousness for what it is.


tbh there are negative impacts from every option: and i am not persuaded that advocating 'a plague on both your houses' abstention in this instance really constitutes the least worst impact option.


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## DotCommunist (Jun 3, 2016)

newbie said:


> What's the hurry? there's another 3 weeks or so.  issues are still being explored and tories are still knifing each other.


long may that continue


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## DotCommunist (Jun 3, 2016)

weltweit said:


> Just looking at the kind of people prominent in the brexit campaign keeps me firmly in remain.


with yer bezzies pigfucker and cokehead?


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## WouldBe (Jun 3, 2016)

newbie said:


> What's the hurry? there's another 3 weeks or so.  issues are still being explored and tories are still knifing each other.


Shame they're not knifing each other for real.


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## rutabowa (Jun 3, 2016)

I'll vote remain, FUCK IT.


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## rutabowa (Jun 3, 2016)

DAMN THEIR EYES


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## brogdale (Jun 3, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> tbh there are negative impacts from every option: and i am not persuaded that advocating 'a plague on both your houses' abstention in this instance really constitutes the least worst impact option.


But, for arguments sake, if knowing that one side will inevitably win, and I have no preference based on an ability to discern differential impacts, what are the possible negative impacts of non-voting?

On the other hand, I can see positive impacts including delegitimising the process.


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## rutabowa (Jun 3, 2016)

brogdale said:


> But, for arguments sake, if knowing that one side will inevitably win, and I have no preference based on an ability to discern differential impacts, what are the possible negative impacts of non-voting?
> 
> On the other hand, I can see positive impacts including delegitimising the process.


i think that's what he was saying!


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## chilango (Jun 3, 2016)

I'd quite like the result to be close. Really, really close. So neither side can claim to win and for them to tear each other to pieces fighting over the poll's legitimacy. The more discrepancies, legal challenges and dodgy ballot boxes the better.

I won't even get that though will I?


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## Pickman's model (Jun 3, 2016)

brogdale said:


> But, for arguments sake, if knowing that one side will inevitably win, and I have no preference based on an ability to discern differential impacts, what are the possible negative impacts of non-voting?
> 
> On the other hand, I can see positive impacts including delegitimising the process.


you undermine your claim to an ability to discern differential impacts when you have to ask what the possible negative impacts of not voting are.


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## ffsear (Jun 3, 2016)

Vote OUT.   Life is dull.  Lets shake things up a little bit. Rock the Boat!


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## belboid (Jun 3, 2016)

brogdale said:


> But, for arguments sake, if knowing that one side will inevitably win, and I have no preference based on an ability to discern differential impacts, what are the possible negative impacts of non-voting?
> 
> On the other hand, I can see positive impacts including delegitimising the process.


You're not delegitimising the process, tho


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## Pickman's model (Jun 3, 2016)

ffsear said:


> Vote OUT.   Life is dull.  Lets shake things up a little bit. Rock the Boat!


YOUR life may be dull: but don't judge everyone by your own experience


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## rutabowa (Jun 3, 2016)

chilango said:


> I'd quite like the result to be close. Really, really close. So neither side can claim to win and for them to tear each other to pieces fighting over the poll's legitimacy. The more discrepancies, legal challenges and dodgy ballot boxes the better.
> 
> I won't even get that though will I?


I don't think there is an option on the ballot paper for "whichever side is doing worst in the count" ha.


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## weltweit (Jun 3, 2016)

ffsear said:


> Vote OUT.   Life is dull.  Lets shake things up a little bit. Rock the Boat!


Yup, trying to push exports into New Zealand sufficient to keep Brits in employment compared to the EU market will certainly not be dull! it might feature a lot of unemployment but it won't be dull


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## rutabowa (Jun 3, 2016)

belboid said:


> You're not delegitimising the process, tho


I actually decided because I was in a pub yesterday afternoon sat between 2 guys talking about this and the 1 on my right, about 80-odd years old, said everyone should not vote because then the rulers wouldn't know what to do, then the 1 on my left who was much younger pointed out that they wouldn't mind that at all and that I should vote remain. So I decided then.


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## brogdale (Jun 3, 2016)

belboid said:


> You're not delegitimising the process, tho


Go on...


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## brogdale (Jun 3, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> you undermine your claim to an ability to discern differential impacts when you have to ask what the possible negative impacts of not voting are.


I asked because I sensed from your earlier post that you regarded all possible actions as having 'negative impacts'. I assumed you meant non-voting as well as R/L? I can't see the 'negative impacts' of not voting...so I wondered what your were thinking of?


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## weltweit (Jun 3, 2016)

So Johnson Gove and Patel say we could spend the £350m a week on the NHS, will they indeed? First it isn't 350 which does not take into account Thatcher's rebate and does not take into account the money that flows from the EU to the UK, and does not take into account the £148m a day inward investment that being in the EU wins Britain.

Britain already wins from being in the EU, financially, and economically.

And as to Johnson Gove and Patel spending any money saved on the NHS, they are from the party that said no top down reorganisation of the NHS before Andrew Lansley did just exactly that. And their priorities, rather than spending more money on the NHS, was to cut taxes for the rich! They already could be spending more money on the NHS - but they preferred to cut taxes for the rich.

I don't think Johnson Gove and Patel can be trusted on the NHS!


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## weltweit (Jun 3, 2016)

If Brexit want continued access to the EU single market after a vote to leave, they will have to agree to the free movement of people which is a cornerstone of the single market. So they can't have their points system for EU migrants if they want to remain in the single market.

And if they don't want continued access to the EU single market, what will happen to the 40% of our exports that currently go into the single market area? So if they don't want continued access to the market they really are swivel eyed little Englander lunatics ..


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## Pickman's model (Jun 3, 2016)

brogdale said:


> I asked because I sensed from your earlier post that you regarded all possible actions as having 'negative impacts'. I assumed you meant non-voting as well as R/L? I can't see the 'negative impacts' of not voting...so I wondered what your were thinking of?


tbh this isn't a referendum with winners all round. either we stay in, with "david cameron's" wing of the tory party triumphant; or we leave, with "boris johnson's" wing of the tory party triumphant: at least at first. i don't really see how you can say 'a plague on both your houses' in that is no more progressive third option unless the numbers of respondents to each option are exactly equal: in which case fuck knows what happens, they probably rerun it a couple of weeks later. it's fair enough to abstain if you have no view on the matter: but it is in this instance, i think, wrong to believe stopping at home is going to play in realistic delegitimating role, going to enthuse the masses or achieve anything at all. i refer again to the 1997 referendum on welsh devolution, in which 50.22% of the electorate voted, 50.3% voted in favour of devolution and 49.7 against devolution. the welsh assembly was created and afaik no one ever referred to the low turnout, or to the insignificance of the 'for' majority. take, again, the pcc elections in which a tiny proportion of the electorate participated. it's not like any of the victors from these piddling polls said 'i don't believe i have a mandate'. 

i think the turnout will be in the region of 60-70%: and of that the vote will go approximately 55-45 in favour of remain. so there will be a considerable 'don't know'/'abstain'/'fuck you all' vote. but aside from some curmudgeons here - and i say that in the term's most positive sense - no one's ever going to give a flying fuck about the stay at homers.


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## weltweit (Jun 3, 2016)

Pickman's model Why do you think it will be 55-45 in favour of remain? We have just had a poll showing Brexit in the lead does that not give you pause for concern it may go leave?


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## Pickman's model (Jun 3, 2016)

weltweit said:


> Pickman's model Why do you think it will be 55-45 in favour of remain? We have just had a poll showing Brexit in the lead does that not give you pause for concern it may go leave?


i thought we'd moved past trusting polls other than the genuine article which will be held on 23 june.


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## belboid (Jun 3, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Go on...


I think you'll find the onus is on you to show your workings...


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## brogdale (Jun 3, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> tbh this isn't a referendum with winners all round. either we stay in, with "david cameron's" wing of the tory party triumphant; or we leave, with "boris johnson's" wing of the tory party triumphant: at least at first. i don't really see how you can say 'a plague on both your houses' in that is no more progressive third option unless the numbers of respondents to each option are exactly equal: in which case fuck knows what happens, they probably rerun it a couple of weeks later. it's fair enough to abstain if you have no view on the matter: but it is in this instance, i think, wrong to believe stopping at home is going to play in realistic delegitimating role, going to enthuse the masses or achieve anything at all. i refer again to the 1997 referendum on welsh devolution, in which 50.22% of the electorate voted, 50.3% voted in favour of devolution and 49.7 against devolution. the welsh assembly was created and afaik no one ever referred to the low turnout, or to the insignificance of the 'for' majority. take, again, the pcc elections in which a tiny proportion of the electorate participated. it's not like any of the victors from these piddling polls said 'i don't believe i have a mandate'.
> 
> i think the turnout will be in the region of 60-70%: and of that the vote will go approximately 55-45 in favour of remain. so there will be a considerable 'don't know'/'abstain'/'fuck you all' vote. but aside from some curmudgeons here - and i say that in the term's most positive sense - no one's ever going to give a flying fuck about the stay at homers.



Thanks for the reasoned response, and I do see what you're getting at...but the alternative action involves voting for one or other of the neoliberal variants. Neither am I dissuaded from abstention on the basis that my decision will be ignored by the state.


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## Pickman's model (Jun 3, 2016)

belboid said:


> I think you'll find the onus is on you to show your workings...


and - further to your point - brogdale would need to demonstrate a large proportion of the population was deliberately staying away with the intention of undermining the legitimacy of the result. and while i think 30-40% will stay away, i don't believe anyone will seriously suggest that detracts from the verdict of the referendum.


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## brogdale (Jun 3, 2016)

belboid said:


> I think you'll find the onus is on you to show your workings...


Well, not really...but let me try another way, then? How is your participation in the process any contribution to the delegitimisation of the whole farce?


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## Pickman's model (Jun 3, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Thanks for the reasoned response, and I do see what you're getting at...but the alternative action involves voting for one or other of the neoliberal variants. Neither am I dissuaded from abstention on the basis that my decision will be ignored by the state.


that's because it's a neoliberal referendum.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 3, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> and - further to your point - brogdale would need to demonstrate a large proportion of the population was deliberately staying away with the intention of undermining the legitimacy of the result. and while i think 30-40% will stay away, i don't believe anyone will seriously suggest that detracts from the verdict of the referendum.


There would come a point at which such suggestions would be made.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 3, 2016)

brogdale said:


> There would come a point at which such suggestions would be made.


no there won't. there will come a point at which they may say 'hmm 55-45 isn't really a convincing majority' but that'll be from bad losers


----------



## brogdale (Jun 3, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> no there won't. there will come a point at which they may say 'hmm 55-45 isn't really a convincing majority' but that'll be from bad losers


Quite possibly.
Are you voting, then?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 3, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Quite possibly.
> Are you voting, then?


don't know yet. i'm torn between voting to go, to see what would happen, and voting to stay because i am concerned about what might happen. i realise my vote is unlikely to swing things one way or the other, but i never bothered voting in a referendum before and i might as well give it a go.


----------



## belboid (Jun 3, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Well, not really...but let me try another way, then? How is your participation in the process any contribution to the delegitimisation of the whole farce?


It isn't, nothing is. It is happening. The EU is neoliberalism writ large (as I know you know). It cannot be changed, for the reasons Nigel outlined above. A rejection of the EU is a rejection of that neoliberalism. Eventually. Unless it all turns to shit first.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 3, 2016)

belboid said:


> It isn't, nothing is. It is happening. The EU is neoliberalism writ large (as I know you know). It cannot be changed, for the reasons Nigel outlined above. A rejection of the EU is a rejection of that neoliberalism. Eventually. Unless it all turns to shit first.


I don't think we're miles apart.
Whilst a 'rejection of the EU' might be a rejection of one particular delivery of the neoliberal process, a positive vote for Brexit merely embraces another model of neoliberalism.


----------



## laptop (Jun 3, 2016)

brogdale said:


> I don't think we're miles apart.
> Whilst a 'rejection of the EU' might be a rejection of one particular delivery of the neoliberal process, a positive vote for Brexit merely embraces another model of neoliberalism.


One that is objectively more neoliberal.

Which is the entire point for the Brexiteers with power.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jun 3, 2016)

I've finally made my mind up. As a union rep who supports the w/c in the workplace, I'm voting to stay in.

There's far too much at stake when it comes to workers rights. TUPE as an example. We leave, TUPE goes out the fuckin' window - & what with the big Tory sell off of public services atm, we fuckin' need TUPE!


----------



## gosub (Jun 3, 2016)

brogdale said:


> I don't think we're miles apart.
> Whilst a 'rejection of the EU' might be a rejection of one particular delivery of the neoliberal process, a positive vote for Brexit merely embraces another model of neoliberalism.


I believe it was Chair Mao who first thought : Ryanair, you shit cunts! Close proximity to Peking my arse! How am I going to motivate the lads to walk from here?


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jun 3, 2016)

chilango said:


> I'd quite like the result to be close. Really, really close. So neither side can claim to win and for them to tear each other to pieces fighting over the poll's legitimacy. The more discrepancies, legal challenges and dodgy ballot boxes the better.
> 
> I won't even get that though will I?


Neither will accept it in good grace either way. I think we can take some comfort in that it's polarised the Tory party and given huge support to the anti-Cameron wing in a way that is damaging internally.

I think it would be better on that level if the brexit side lost, because the anti-Cameronites don't have to compromise and won't, they'll still keep attacking; whereas if they won, Cameron would be more likely to make concessions for party unity and the venom would die down a bit.


----------



## belboid (Jun 3, 2016)

brogdale said:


> I don't think we're miles apart.
> Whilst a 'rejection of the EU' might be a rejection of one particular delivery of the neoliberal process, a positive vote for Brexit merely embraces another model of neoliberalism.


I don't think we're that far apart.  Of course the UK as currently run is neoliberal. But it isn't enshrined in it's unbreakable rules that it has to be. The EU, by promoting rules over democracy, is wholly unreformable. Whereas the UK is merely not reformable enough.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 3, 2016)

belboid said:


> I don't think we're that far apart.  Of course the UK as currently run is neoliberal. But it isn't enshrined in it's unbreakable rules that it has to be. The EU, by promoting rules over democracy, is wholly unreformable. Whereas the UK is merely not reformable enough.


The interests dictating the continued neoliberal turn don't rely upon 'rules'; they control 'the market'.


----------



## belboid (Jun 3, 2016)

brogdale said:


> The interests dictating the continued neoliberal turn don't rely upon 'rules'; they control 'the market'.


Well, duh. But they use those rules to pretend that the market isn't just vested interests, that it is above all that.  It was explicit with Greece - 'Yes, we know this won't solve anything, and will only make your economy worse, but they're _the rules._'


----------



## brogdale (Jun 3, 2016)

belboid said:


> Well, duh. But they use those rules to pretend that the market isn't just vested interests, that it is above all that.  It was explicit with Greece - 'Yes, we know this won't solve anything, and will only make your economy worse, but they're _the rules._'


The dream of a Brexited Corbynian socialism is just that. The bond markets will deter any policy they choose.


----------



## sihhi (Jun 3, 2016)

Mr.Bishie said:


> I've finally made my mind up. As a union rep who supports the w/c in the workplace, I'm voting to stay in.
> 
> There's far too much at stake when it comes to workers rights. TUPE as an example. We leave, TUPE goes out the fuckin' window - & what with the big Tory sell off of public services atm, we fuckin' need TUPE!



On transfer of undertakings , what could genuinely help here is this article by the IER's EU employment law expert

Industrial Law Journal Volume 42, Issue 4 p. 434-446.
Freedom of Contract as a General Principle of EU Law? Transfers of Undertakings and the Protection of Employer Rights in EU Labour Law
Case C-426/11 Alemo-Herron and others v Parkwood Leisure Ltd

"in the larger context of EU Labour Law and its relationship with national industrial relations systems: despite an explicit provision to the contrary in Article 8 of the Acquired Rights Directive, *Member States no longer seem able to lay down standards which are more favourable to employees."*

The conclusion "The CJEU’s decision in Alemo-Herron v Parkwood Leisure Ltd is deeply problematic, both when analysed on its own terms and as regards its broader implications for EU labour law. The contradictions brought to the fore culminate in the rather counterintuitive position where ‘no more than a conventional application of ordinary principles of [English] contract law’ would yield significantly better protection for employees than an application of the EU Charter of Fundamental Rights."

The EU membership (thus accepting its law) is a way to enforce worse transfer of undertakings than member state. Of course voting out won't improve it either - only asserting workplaces can - but staying in is no better at all.


----------



## belboid (Jun 3, 2016)

brogdale said:


> The dream of a Brexited Corbynian socialism is just that. The bond markets will deter any policy they choose.


Of course. But to even by allowed a challenge now is such a rarity, it must be embraced.


----------



## sihhi (Jun 3, 2016)

chilango said:


> I'd quite like the result to be close. Really, really close. So neither side can claim to win and for them to tear each other to pieces fighting over the poll's legitimacy. The more discrepancies, legal challenges and dodgy ballot boxes the better.
> 
> I won't even get that though will I?



It might be closer than you imagine.


----------



## bluescreen (Jun 3, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> <snip>
> i think the turnout will be in the region of 60-70%: and of that the vote will go approximately 55-45 in favour of remain. so there will be a considerable 'don't know'/'abstain'/'fuck you all' vote. but aside from some curmudgeons here - and i say that in the term's most positive sense - no one's ever going to give a flying fuck about the stay at homers.


Surprised you reckon the turnout will be that high. I'll be impressed if it's more than 50% but that's only a hunch: I haven't seen any studies on likely turnout. Do you have particular reasons for the prediction?


----------



## stethoscope (Jun 3, 2016)

Mr.Bishie said:


> I've finally made my mind up. As a union rep who supports the w/c in the workplace, I'm voting to stay in.
> 
> There's far too much at stake when it comes to workers rights. TUPE as an example. We leave, TUPE goes out the fuckin' window - & what with the big Tory sell off of public services atm, we fuckin' need TUPE!



Have you heard anything specific in relation to TUPE? Just that its a UK piece of legislation (based on an EU directive I believe) that's been there for years. Whilst nothing can be put past the Tories, I've not seen anything that TUPE is specifically up for repeal/reform if we left the EU?


----------



## brogdale (Jun 3, 2016)

belboid said:


> Of course. But to even by allowed a challenge now is such a rarity, it must be embraced.


What has to be embraced?


----------



## belboid (Jun 3, 2016)

brogdale said:


> What has to be embraced?


The opening up of the possibility of a challenge


----------



## brogdale (Jun 3, 2016)

belboid said:


> The opening up of the possibility of a challenge


_Anti-neoliberalism in one country_?


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jun 3, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> Have you heard anything specific in relation to TUPE? Just that its a UK piece of legislation (based on an EU directive I believe) that's been there for years. Whilst nothing can be put past the Tories, I've not seen anything that TUPE is specifically up for repeal/reform if we left the EU?



I was on a TUPE course with my union last week, a new course for reps due to the current climate. Whilst I don't know as much in employment law as sihhi does (& i've not read the pdf he posted yet, but will), that's one case study. The Tory/Libdem coalition were hell bent on scrapping TUPE but couldn't due to EU directive. Everyone in branch (very knowledgeable organisers) are very worried that an exit from the EU will result in the Tories scrapping TUPE.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 3, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> Have you heard anything specific in relation to TUPE? Just that its a UK piece of legislation (based on an EU directive I believe) that's been there for years. Whilst nothing can be put past the Tories, I've not seen anything that TUPE is specifically up for repeal/reform if we left the EU?


If and when financialised capital wish to withdraw from the concessions enshrined in TUPE, the leavist vermin would be the first to oblige, but they'd be closely followed by the super-state.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jun 3, 2016)

brogdale said:


> If and when financialised capital wish to withdraw from the concessions enshrined in TUPE, the leavist vermin would be the first to oblige, but they'd be closely followed by the super-state.



And this is it, either fuckin' way, the w/c & their supporting unions will be shat upon from greater heights at some point in time.

The French & Spanish union workers are being battered by their police states for militant strike action, like the EU give's a fuck.

e2a: Workers rights will be dismantelled a damn sight fuckin' quicker out of the EU.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 3, 2016)

Mr.Bishie said:


> And this is it, either fuckin' way, the w/c & their supporting unions will be shat upon from greater heights at some point in time.
> 
> The French & Spanish union workers are being battered by their police states for militant strike action, like the EU give's a fuck.
> 
> e2a: Workers rights will be dismantelled a damn sight fuckin' quicker out of the EU.


Really, the super-state does give a fuck; that's why it's happening.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jun 3, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Really, the super-state does give a fuck; that's why it's happening.



I get you. We're fucked either way.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 3, 2016)

Mr.Bishie said:


> I get you. We're fucked either way.


Well, history tells us that capital only makes concessions when it has the fear. We have to be the fear...somehow.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jun 3, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Well, history tells us that capital only makes concessions when it has the fear. We have to be the fear...somehow.



Spanish style!


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 3, 2016)

bluescreen said:


> Surprised you reckon the turnout will be that high. I'll be impressed if it's more than 50% but that's only a hunch: I haven't seen any studies on likely turnout. Do you have particular reasons for the prediction?


Yes, my gut feeling


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 3, 2016)

brogdale said:


> _Anti-neoliberalism in one country_?



As if socialism in _more than_ one country was a massive success.

The way I see it EU doesn't give a fuck about maintaining workers' rights and it wasn't responsible for us getting them in the first place. Or rights were acquired through the force of organised collective action. But try organising on a European-wide scale and see how far you get with all the different languages and experiences and political cultures. It's not going to happen. European Capital wins every time because the EU is too big and we are too divided.


----------



## 8ball (Jun 3, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> Yes, my gut feeling



I had figured the turnout will be really high cos its on telly and stuff.

Obviously there are more sophisticated ways of analysing such things, but when talking about it with people I seem to find no abstainers.


----------



## pocketscience (Jun 3, 2016)

weltweit said:


> ... and does not take into account the £148m a day inward investment that being in the EU wins Britain.


You're spouting again.
You, like us all, have no idea what a post brexit uk will look like, so why keep on repeating this baseless assumption?


----------



## 8ball (Jun 3, 2016)

pocketscience said:


> You're spouting again.
> You, like us all, have no idea what a post brexit uk will look like, so why keep on repeating this baseless assumption?



A post-Brexit UK will look like a week of hullabaloo and panicked renegotiations, then another vote.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 3, 2016)

weltweit said:


> Pickman's model Why do you think it will be 55-45 in favour of remain? We have just had a poll showing Brexit in the lead does that not give you pause for concern it may go leave?



Ask a psychologist what will happen, and while most won't give you a prediction, they will tell you that people generally favour the _status quo_ unless things are very bad indeed.


----------



## 8ball (Jun 3, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> Ask a psychologist what will happen, and while most won't give you a prediction, they will tell you that people generally favour the _status quo_ unless things are very bad indeed.



Yep, I'm hoping the bookies are forced to make some serious market moves given the amount of bets being placed on leave.
The waverers will always pussy out of serious change once faced with a ballot paper.


----------



## bluescreen (Jun 3, 2016)

8ball said:


> I had figured the turnout will be really high cos its on telly and stuff.
> 
> Obviously there are more sophisticated ways of analysing such things, but when talking about it with people I seem to find no abstainers.


Depends who you talk to. Apart from my FB milieu (who are all for, or - way fewer - anti, and will probably vote) all I can detect from anyone else irl, if not outright hostility to immigration (which somehow seems to be the Brexit usp), is a massive yawn.


----------



## 8ball (Jun 3, 2016)

bluescreen said:


> Depends who you talk to. Apart from my FB milieu (who are all for, or - way fewer - anti, and will probably vote) all I can detect from anyone else irl, if not outright hostility to immigration (which somehow seems to be the Brexit usp), is a massive yawn.



Most of the people I've talked to are in the slightly-smug part of the remain camp, the bit that thinks they are more intelligent than the other lot and the only people who want out are racists.  There are a small number in leave camp who avoid talking about it with the smug lot.

I have the entirely boring fairly common left-of-centre opinion that the EU is an elite club ultimately opposed to the aims of most normal people, but now is not the time to let the most boat happy of the ship's bastards into the wheelhouse.

I also resent that this has been foisted upon us as an internal Tory power play, so I'll most likely be spoiling my vote.

If we leave on a one vote majority then everyone has my sincere apologies.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Jun 3, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> Have you heard anything specific in relation to TUPE? Just that its a UK piece of legislation (based on an EU directive I believe) that's been there for years. Whilst nothing can be put past the Tories, I've not seen anything that TUPE is specifically up for repeal/reform if we left the EU?


 
Don't think any of the 'leave' people have specifically said which bits of employment law they would scrap.

There have been various speeches making noises about 'EU employment law harming business' and 'EU red tape' and trying to convince people that if we got rid of workers' rights it would be good for workers, or words to that effect.

To which I say "my arse"

Labour have put this out -

"Many of the employment rights working people rely on are guaranteed by EU law. I call on the Leave campaign to say which workers' rights they'd scrap if we left the EU." - (this is something you can sign up to if you feel so inclined - here)


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jun 3, 2016)

Puddy_Tat said:


> Don't think any of the 'leave' people have specifically said which bits of employment law they would scrap.



You know the Tory agenda is to attack workers rights, smash unions, & sell off the public sector, whether they're remain or leave. Boris or Dave, take your pick.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Jun 3, 2016)

Mr.Bishie said:


> You know the Tory agenda is to attack workers rights, smash unions, & sell off the public sector, whether they're remain or leave. Boris or Dave, take your pick.


 


but mr cameron said "we are the party of working people"...


----------



## gosub (Jun 3, 2016)

8ball said:


> A post-Brexit UK will look like a week of hullabaloo and panicked renegotiations, then another vote.


Panic yes,  out ain't supposed to win.  The debate as per we are having this site is referendum mk 2 when services (financial) more tied into single market (un) fortunately same paper as TTIP - trick shot or fuck off
Resolving back to EFTA actually not that hard


Reality Check: Would the single market for services create 800,000 jobs? - BBC News letting the London financial piranhas free reign same bracket as health services


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jun 3, 2016)

Puddy_Tat said:


> but mr cameron said "we are the party of working people"...



And I'm a fuckin' potato


----------



## brogdale (Jun 3, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> Ask a psychologist what will happen, and while most won't give you a prediction, they will tell you that people generally favour the _status quo_ unless things are very bad indeed.


Yep.
As useful overview of the poll performance during previous UK plebicites here:-
How good are referendum polls in the UK?







> Experience from previous referendums therefore gives considerable reason to expect that the final outcome this time will be more favourable to Remain than the average poll that we see over the next few weeks. Indeed, that evidence suggests that there is a reasonable prospect that Remain will out perform even the most pro-Remain poll of the final month.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jun 3, 2016)

Bollocks to polls, stick with the bookies 

Paddy Power 5/2 Leave! 

Brexit Referendum Betting Odds | Oddschecker


----------



## bluescreen (Jun 3, 2016)

Convince me that the Brexiters *aren't* more committed to voting than the Remainers and I'll take all the stated voting intentions more seriously.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 3, 2016)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Bollocks to polls, stick with the bookies
> 
> Paddy Power 5/2 Remain!
> 
> Brexit Referendum Betting Odds | Oddschecker


Saying much the same thing tbf!


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jun 3, 2016)

Didn't Flange have a grand on leave? Twat.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jun 3, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Saying much the same thing tbf!



Hurrah!


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jun 3, 2016)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Didn't Flange have a grand on leave? Twat.


That's what he says. In fact he put 5 grand on stay.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jun 3, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> That's what he says. In fact he put 5 grand on stay.



Wouldn't surprise me, how would he cope without his MEP expenses? The fuckin' hypocrite.


----------



## weltweit (Jun 3, 2016)

pocketscience said:


> You're spouting again.
> You, like us all, have no idea what a post brexit uk will look like, so why keep on repeating this baseless assumption?


What I do think I know is that there will be no points based system for EU migrants if Leave want in the single market.


----------



## redsquirrel (Jun 3, 2016)

Mr.Bishie said:


> You know the Tory agenda is to attack workers rights, smash unions, & sell off the public sector, whether they're remain or leave. Boris or Dave, take your pick.


Likewise this idea that Leave is the anti-immigrant vote completely misses the fact that it is that nice Mr Cameron and his cabinet that is currently responsible for the UK immigration policy, in favour the the disgusting deal with Turkey and have support sending buses telling immigrants to go home around particular areas.


----------



## bluescreen (Jun 3, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> Likewise this idea that Leave is the anti-immigrant vote completely misses the fact that it is that nice Mr Cameron and his cabinet that is currently responsible for the UK immigration policy, in favour the the disgusting deal with Turkey and have support sending buses telling immigrants to go home around particular areas.


Tell us more about Brexit's policy on immigration? I mean, I'm not deluded about Govt policy, but how is Brexit an improvement?


----------



## weltweit (Jun 4, 2016)

bluescreen said:


> Tell us more about Brexit's policy on immigration? I mean, I'm not deluded about Govt policy, but how is Brexit an improvement?


Brexit claim they want a points based immigration system like Australia has. My understanding is that they want this system for EU and non EU migrants. I don't think they will be able to negotiate such a system with the EU though.


----------



## 8ball (Jun 4, 2016)

weltweit said:


> Brexit claim they want a points based immigration system like Australia has. My understanding is that they want this system for EU and non EU migrants. I don't think they will be able to negotiate such a system with the EU though.



Well, they will, but without losing massively on other concessions.


----------



## bluescreen (Jun 4, 2016)

weltweit said:


> Brexit claim they want a points based immigration system like Australia has. My understanding is that they want this system for EU and non EU migrants. I don't think they will be able to negotiate such a system with the EU though.


I know this is what they want. I can't see it as an improvement, though - it causes immense hardship.

ETA as if things weren't bad enough here already, what with vicious deportations.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Jun 4, 2016)

there appears to be growing feline support for 'remain'

mEUw (@mEUwCats) on Twitter

i thought most cats were in favour of a 'sit in open doorway and contemplate the merits of in or out' position...


----------



## redsquirrel (Jun 4, 2016)

bluescreen said:


> Tell us more about Brexit's policy on immigration? I mean, I'm not deluded about Govt policy, but how is Brexit an improvement?


Sorry, where did I say Brexit policy (whatever that is) was an improvement? 

Both offical camps are full of anti-immigration wankers, something that seems to be forgotten by liberals.


----------



## bluescreen (Jun 4, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> Sorry, where did I say Brexit policy (whatever that is) was an improvement?
> 
> Both offical camps are full of anti-immigration wankers, something that seems to be forgotten by liberals.


Sorry, what was your point, then?


----------



## weltweit (Jun 4, 2016)

A points based system could significantly reduce the number of people who qualify to enter the UK, but it could be pretty unfair to for example people fleeing a war zone like Syria, yes you have a medical degree you can come, no sorry you are a bricklayer (or other undesired occupation) we have enough of those so no you have to stay in Calais.


----------



## redsquirrel (Jun 4, 2016)

bluescreen said:


> Sorry, what was your point, then?


Just as there will be attacks on workers rights, dismantling of the welfare state whatever the results so will there be a continued anti-immigrant policy. 

Yet idiots like U75s own Nick Clegg above have attempted to portray Leave as the anti-immigrant vote while completely ignoring the anti-immigration policies of those leading Remain.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 4, 2016)

weltweit said:


> A points based system could significantly reduce the number of people who qualify to enter the UK, but it could be pretty unfair to for example people fleeing a war zone like Syria, yes you have a medical degree you can come, no sorry you are a bricklayer (or other undesired occupation) we have enough of those so no you have to stay in Calais.



You are conflating the issue of Immigration with that of Asylum. These are two different policy areas. I don't think anyone is proposing that this points-based system would apply to refugees.


----------



## Sprocket. (Jun 4, 2016)

Whatever happens the workers, the poor, the disadvantaged will not be one jot better off. They are two sides of the same corrupt capitalist coin and as ever only the wealthy will profit.
Smoke and mirrors it is all a diversion so the tories can get really nasty.


----------



## gosub (Jun 4, 2016)

8ball said:


> Well, they will, but without losing massively on other concessions.


who will? Brexit isn't forming a government.


----------



## bluescreen (Jun 4, 2016)

gosub said:


> who will? Brexit isn't forming a government.


^^ This. A Brexit vote may give us Boris as PM but it won't trigger a general election. It's not a vote for a fairer future, just a Hail Mary pass.


----------



## 8ball (Jun 4, 2016)

gosub said:


> who will? Brexit isn't forming a government.



Them.


----------



## redsquirrel (Jun 4, 2016)

bluescreen said:


> ^^ This. A Brexit vote may give us Boris as PM but it won't trigger a general election.


Yet you were arguing that the is such a thing as a Brexit policy, just a few posts back. Clegg was claiming that Brexit want to introduce an Australian points system.

So which of the people below are responsible for this policy? Which of them are in favour of a points system? ,

alfajobrob, davesgcr, frogwoman, DotCommunist, butchersapron, Spymaster, xes, agricola, gosub, Cerberus, Fonzie Bear, Brixton Hatter, flypanam, Nigel Irritable, mwgdrwg, Virtual Blue, WouldBe, nuffsaid, denniseagle, maomao, killer b, ItWillNeverWork, belboid, moomoo, dennisr, MooChild, lizzieloo, 8ball, 1927, Louis MacNeice, roryer, magneze, Sirena, redsquirrel, Mation, Flavour, Signal 11, fishfinger, Fez909, Knotted, YouSir, steeplejack, militant atheist, Nigel, mk12, smokedout, Janh, joe_infinity, MikeMcc, ricbake, NoXion, Ranbay, Lo Siento, Tankus, Bahnhof Strasse, SpookyFrank, oztpo4, Tribeca, Libertad, josef1878, InfoBurner, kavenism, PandaCola, ffsear, RubyBlue, OneStrike, stethoscope, mather, dilberto, Manter, SpackleFrog

EDIT: Apologises if I alerted you, I just meant to C&P the list of out voters but it might have also C&P the link too.


----------



## sihhi (Jun 4, 2016)

Puddy_Tat said:


> Labour have put this out -
> 
> "Many of the employment rights working people rely on are guaranteed by EU law. I call on the Leave campaign to say which workers' rights they'd scrap if we left the EU." - (this is something you can sign up to if you feel so inclined - here)



Labour are frauds.

*The rights at work on the ballot paper in this referendum include:*

_A minimum of four weeks paid holiday, plus public holidays_
_The right to equal pay for women is underpinned by EU law_
_Protections against sex discrimination at work where EU law also underpins UK law_
_Rights to maternity and paternity leave_
_Equal treatment for part-time workers_
_No discrimination against fixed term workers_
_Equal treatment for agency workers after six months_
_An individual right to limit the working week to a maximum of 48 hours_
_Protection for workers facing outsourcing, privatisation, and changes of employer_
_Comprehensive protection on health and safety in the workplace_
_Many of those campaigning to leave the EU want to scrap and undermine workers’ rights. Last month Tory Employment Minister and Leave campaigner Priti Patel called for EU social protections and workers’ rights to be cut in the event of a vote to leave the EU._

Dripping with fraud.
1 These rights are already phantom rights - ones that exist on paper only - for millions of workers in the market, with the EU supposedly ramming them forward for the past either 40 years or 24 years (depending on your benchmark) in fact they become more in-name-only just as the EU continues and expands.
2 The claims for the EU offering these rights particularly 'protection for workers facing outsourcing, privatisation, and changes of employer' (see above) or 'comprehensive protection on health and safety in the workplace' is bunkum. The EU paticularly the Court of Justice of the EU - case after case - facilitates comprehensive weakening of protection and a race to the bottom across EU member states.
The Court of Justice of the EU - ever since 2008 - has primacy over member state laws ie meaning member states are subject to its law - that is irreversible within the EU unless the members create a new Treaty. The Court of Justice of the EU is the most right-wing,regressive body the EU has, and  zero democratic control.
3 The Agency Worker Directive from on high allowed a massive increase in cross-border agency work near completely casual labour with no employer duties at the mercy of two sets of effective employers 1 home country agency 2 agency's contracted firm.
4 Priti Patel has consistently called for social protections and workers’ rights to be cut because those are her tactics to ensure profitability and growth, so what?
The CBI - who actually matter, have the power to direct a lockout or organise a capital freeze, - have consistently called for social protections and workers’ rights to be cut because those are its tactics to ensure profitability and growth.
Perhaps more to the point since 2012 the EU Commission's REFIT budget ('Regulatory, Fitness and Performance') has been given over to reducing the burden on business thinking up new ways for the Court to trim the rights the EU supposedly wants to protect.
_
_


----------



## gosub (Jun 4, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> Yet you were arguing that the is such a thing as a Brexit policy, just a few posts back. Clegg was claiming that Brexit want to introduce an Australian points system.
> 
> So which of the people below are responsible for this policy? Which of them are in favour of a points system? ,
> 
> alfajobrob, davesgcr, frogwoman, DotCommunist, butchersapron, Spymaster, xes, agricola, *gosub*, Cerberus, Fonzie Bear, Brixton Hatter, flypanam, Nigel Irritable, mwgdrwg, Virtual Blue, WouldBe, nuffsaid, denniseagle, maomao, killer b, ItWillNeverWork, belboid, moomoo, dennisr, MooChild, lizzieloo, 8ball, 1927, Louis MacNeice, roryer, magneze, Sirena, redsquirrel, Mation, Flavour, Signal 11, fishfinger, Fez909, Knotted, YouSir, steeplejack, militant atheist, Nigel, mk12, smokedout, Janh, joe_infinity, MikeMcc, ricbake, NoXion, Ranbay, Lo Siento, Tankus, Bahnhof Strasse, SpookyFrank, oztpo4, Tribeca, Libertad, josef1878, InfoBurner, kavenism, PandaCola, ffsear, RubyBlue, OneStrike, stethoscope, mather, dilberto, Manter, SpackleFrog



I'm not..   I've got a mate with a Chinese wife, she works in chinese medicine, rest of firm is here through points based company  quota  visas, ends up you put up with a lot of shit coz you are beholding to the company


----------



## two sheds (Jun 4, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> Yet you were arguing that the is such a thing as a Brexit policy, just a few posts back. Clegg was claiming that Brexit want to introduce an Australian points system.
> 
> So which of the people below are responsible for this policy? Which of them are in favour of a points system? ,
> 
> alfajobrob, davesgcr, frogwoman, DotCommunist, butchersapron, Spymaster, xes, agricola, gosub, Cerberus, Fonzie Bear, Brixton Hatter, flypanam, Nigel Irritable, mwgdrwg, Virtual Blue, WouldBe, nuffsaid, denniseagle, maomao, killer b, ItWillNeverWork, belboid, moomoo, dennisr, MooChild, lizzieloo, 8ball, 1927, Louis MacNeice, roryer, magneze, Sirena, redsquirrel, Mation, Flavour, Signal 11, fishfinger, Fez909, Knotted, YouSir, steeplejack, militant atheist, Nigel, mk12, smokedout, Janh, joe_infinity, MikeMcc, ricbake, NoXion, Ranbay, Lo Siento, Tankus, Bahnhof Strasse, SpookyFrank, oztpo4, Tribeca, Libertad, josef1878, InfoBurner, kavenism, PandaCola, ffsear, RubyBlue, OneStrike, stethoscope, mather, dilberto, Manter, SpackleFrog



Didn't ask me


----------



## bluescreen (Jun 4, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> Yet you were arguing that the is such a thing as a Brexit policy, just a few posts back. Clegg was claiming that Brexit want to introduce an Australian points system.
> 
> So which of the people below are responsible for this policy? Which of them are in favour of a points system? ,
> 
> alfajobrob, davesgcr, frogwoman, DotCommunist, butchersapron, Spymaster, xes, agricola, gosub, Cerberus, Fonzie Bear, Brixton Hatter, flypanam, Nigel Irritable, mwgdrwg, Virtual Blue, WouldBe, nuffsaid, denniseagle, maomao, killer b, ItWillNeverWork, belboid, moomoo, dennisr, MooChild, lizzieloo, 8ball, 1927, Louis MacNeice, roryer, magneze, Sirena, redsquirrel, Mation, Flavour, Signal 11, fishfinger, Fez909, Knotted, YouSir, steeplejack, militant atheist, Nigel, mk12, smokedout, Janh, joe_infinity, MikeMcc, ricbake, NoXion, Ranbay, Lo Siento, Tankus, Bahnhof Strasse, SpookyFrank, oztpo4, Tribeca, Libertad, josef1878, InfoBurner, kavenism, PandaCola, ffsear, RubyBlue, OneStrike, stethoscope, mather, dilberto, Manter, SpackleFrog


Blimey. Are all of those Brexiters? I will have to pay closer attention.


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## bluescreen (Jun 4, 2016)

redsquirrel 
You sound very cross. Oh, wait: you mean that if we vote Out, BoJo, Foxy, IDS & co will be setting the terms for Brexit?  No, they won't - the rest of the EU will be. (Actually that might be preferable in the circs.) Struggling here to see what a No vote can hope to achieve.


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## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 4, 2016)

bluescreen said:


> redsquirrel
> You sound very cross. Oh, wait: you mean that if we vote Out, BoJo, Foxy, IDS & co will be setting the terms for Brexit?  No, they won't - the rest of the EU will be. (Actually that might be preferable in the circs.) Struggling here to see what a No vote can hope to achieve.



This referendum isn't about choosing between individual politicians or factions, it's about choosing between two _systems_ of government. A lot of the campaigning so far, on both the leave and remain side, has been short-sighted in my opinion. We need to ask the question about what is best for us in the next 100 years, not what is best for us in the coming 5.


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## redsquirrel (Jun 4, 2016)

bluescreen said:


> redsquirrel
> You sound very cross. Oh, wait: you mean that if we vote Out, BoJo, Foxy, IDS & co will be setting the terms for Brexit?


What? My point was that both you and weltweit (and your by no means alone) talked about a _*Brexit policy*_, equating the people in that list with UKIP, Johnson etc, effectively calling them supporters of anti-immigrant measures. If you can't see that that is out of order then you're the same type of liberal wanker that weltweit and co are.

I can recognise that Mr.Bishie is a comrade while still thinking he's wrong for voting remain. The same doesn't seem to be able to be said for many _progressives_ (vomit) on the Remain side.


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## Mr.Bishie (Jun 4, 2016)

After reading sihhi 's latest post, my position has shifted again! Why give this vote to people who haven't got a fyckin clue & are one trick immigration ponies.


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## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 4, 2016)

Bloody ponies coming over here and not bothering to learn any new tricks.


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## Coolfonz (Jun 4, 2016)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Bollocks to polls, stick with the bookies
> 
> Paddy Power 5/2 Leave!
> 
> Brexit Referendum Betting Odds | Oddschecker


I think this is the one to watch. The bookies never get polls wrong. *shakes fist at Ladbrokes*

A points based immigration system will mean state apparatus expanding in order to physically expel illegal French, Belgians, Dutch, Germans overstayers...which would be an interesting development in terms of international relations.


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## stethoscope (Jun 4, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> What? My point was that both you and weltweit (and your by no means alone) talked about a _*Brexit policy*_, equating the people in that list with UKIP, Johnson etc, effectively calling them supported of anti-immigrant measures. If you can't see that that is out of order then you're the same type of liberal wanker than weltweit and co are.



This really, I've frankly had enough discussing any more with liberals as they can't do discussion honestly. I've been trying to explore, and have forwarded my thoughts on the main thread about exit on the basis of pro-worker, pro-left grounds (however much thats a mountain to climb).

There are valid left arguments to stay in, just as there are valid left grounds to leave (the 'choice' is one between a rock and hard place for anyone on the left) amongst a barrage of utter underhand and disingenuous rubbish - liberals engaged in constant reductionism and implication of anyone arguing for exit as automatically lining up with Gove, Boris, Farage, 'anti-immigration', etc. Well, the majority of capital (finance and banks, the centre and right of politics, the EU, IMF, etc. and fellow travellers who believe in the market) are more and more desperate to paint a horror story if we left because they are defending neoliberalism.

It's an unhelpful line of argument for any of us really trying to carve out any potential for radical anti-capitalist, pro-socialist possibilities in this mess of liberals making, but one that liberals seem determined to pursue and make the prevailing narrative anyway.


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## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 4, 2016)

Coolfonz said:


> I think this is the one to watch. The bookies never get polls wrong. *shakes fist at Ladbrokes*
> 
> A points based immigration system will mean state apparatus expanding in order to physically expel illegal French, Belgians, Dutch, Germans overstayers



Utter bullshit. There will be no expulsions.


----------



## Coolfonz (Jun 4, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> Utter bullshit. There will be no expulsions.


A points based immigration system that has no consequences? Interesting. There is one for people outside the EU at the moment and they do get deported and held in secure facilities.


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## girasol (Jun 4, 2016)

I've made my mind up, finally!  If socialism was going to happen, or is going to happen, it will happen whether we are in Europe or not.  IN!


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## Coolfonz (Jun 4, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> This really, I've frankly had enough discussing any more with liberals as they can't do discussion honestly. I've been trying to explore, and have forwarded my thoughts on the main thread about exit on the basis of pro-worker, pro-left grounds (however much thats a mountain to climb). There are valid left arguments to stay in, just as there are valid left grounds to leave (the 'choice' is one between a rock and hard place for anyone on the left) amongst a barrage of utter underhand and disingenuous rubbish - liberals engaged in constant reductionism and implication of anyone arguing for exit as automatically lining up with Gove, Boris, Farage, 'anti-immigration', etc. Well, the majority of capital (finance and banks, the centre and right of politics, the EU, IMF, etc. and fellow travellers of private markets) are more and more desperate to paint a horror story if we left because they are defending neoliberalism. It's an unhelpful line of argument for any of us really trying to carve out any potential for radical anti-capitalist, pro-socialist possibilities in this mess of liberals making, but one that liberals seem determined to pursue and make the prevailing narrative anyway.


Maybe because the whole referendum and debate is a waste of time, energy and money? Just another example of right wing people fighting each other as their economic system fails? Sea of cunts theory applies.


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## stethoscope (Jun 4, 2016)

girasol said:


> I've made my mind up, finally!  If socialism was going to happen, or is going to happen, it will happen whether we are in Europe or not.  IN!



I can only see the mildest of reformism being possible inside the EU. Member states whilst they stay inside the EU are going to bound by what is a neoliberal super state, run by and for the bourgeoisie, which is based upon opening up of markets and capital. I don't see how any member can pursue socialism by being in (look at Greece, look at French workers right now). Which is not to say it would easy to do so 'out' either but its still got to be more of a possibility.


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## stethoscope (Jun 4, 2016)

Where are the EU then protecting workers rights/labour laws in France?

Hollande attempts to slay France's 'sacred cow' labour laws



			
				Indie said:
			
		

> Mr Valls has proposed what is, for France, a radical change in employment law, which would align the country with the more flexible hiring and firing rules applied in Germany, Britain and Scandinavian countries. He will hold a series of talks with France’s multiple trades’ union federations this morning in an attempt to head off protests, strikes and a threatened split within the Parti Socialiste.
> 
> …
> 
> ...



Of course, most of the reporting of what's happening in France as being 'enacted by the socialist government'. What they're less economical with the truth is mentioning that these reforms are being demanded by the EU…

France to reform ‘overly complex’ labour laws next year, PM says



			
				EurActiv said:
			
		

> The government will propose legislation to simplify over-complex labour laws and promote more collective bargaining accords at a sectoral level, French Prime Minister Manuel Valls said on Wednesday (9 September).
> 
> France, where unemployment remains stubbornly high at a near record 10%, has promised to speed up structural reforms demanded by its European Union partners in exchange for more leeway on deficit reduction.
> 
> The European Commission, International Monetary Fund and Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development have all said that a reform of the labour sector should be the top priority for the eurozone’s second-largest economy


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## ViolentPanda (Jun 4, 2016)

Mr.Bishie said:


> After reading sihhi 's latest post, my position has shifted again! Why give this vote to people who haven't got a fyckin clue & are one trick immigration ponies.



Well, that's the great thing about referenda, Bish. You ask an anodyne question that can be taken to mean different things to different people, but that will secure the political Establishment what it wants. They're asking in order to be able to claim a mandate - whether "in" or "out" - for the next round of shaftings of the working class (because it'll be us that take the brunt of any financial side-effects).


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## littlebabyjesus (Jun 4, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> Utter bullshit. There will be no expulsions.


Not of French, Belgians, Dutch or Germans, no - some kind of reciprocal arrangement would be drawn up, no doubt. But of Romanians or Bulgarians? I wouldn't be so sure - we can know for sure that there are people who would want to expel them, and there are people who would see an 'out' vote as a mandate to expel them. For many on the 'out' side, restricting immigration from Eastern Europe is the main point of all this.


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## gosub (Jun 4, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Not of French, Belgians, Dutch or Germans, no - some kind of reciprocal arrangement would be drawn up, no doubt. But of Romanians or Bulgarians? I wouldn't be so sure - we can know for sure that there are people who would want to expel them, and there are people who would see an 'out' vote as a mandate to expel them. For many on the 'out' side, restricting immigration from Eastern Europe is the main point of all this.


So as well as deal that won't go through Parliament,  you'd be expecting a situation where the  designated lead negotiator for rEU gets done for discrimination, just so Chris from Sollihull gets what he wants


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## littlebabyjesus (Jun 4, 2016)

gosub said:


> So as well as deal that won't go through Parliament,  you'd be expecting a situation where the  designated lead negotiator for rEU gets done for discrimination, just so Chris from Sollihull gets what he wants


No, I'd be expecting calls to get the headline net immigration figure down. Only way to do that is to restrict movement into the UK from parts of the EU.


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## gosub (Jun 4, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> No, I'd be expecting calls to get the headline net immigration figure down. Only way to do that is to restrict movement into the UK from parts of the EU.


Ignoring the problems of our parliament for a minute,  you've read Article 50? No way whoever gets lead negotiator role is going to go back and say "great news guys, only some of you are now second class citizens". 

Nonsense on stilts


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## Dogsauce (Jun 4, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> implication of anyone arguing for exit as automatically lining up with Gove, Boris, Farage, 'anti-immigration', etc.



Personally, I'm less worried about the empowerment of Boris (who's main interest is in keeping the EU's increased appetite for the scrutiny of dodgy tax deals away from his hedge fund/trust fund mates - hence the funding of Leave by those types) and more concerned with the likes of Le Pen, Wilders etc. as they're the ones waiting to fill the void of a collapsed European Union, an equivalent left alternative is much further away from taking the helm. The desperate playing of the anti-immigrant card in the last couple of weeks emphasises that Brexit will be celebrated as a victory for the right. It's two fingers to the Turks, not the establishment elite.

(Though in fairness it could be argued that the existence of the EU and associated political disempowerment is what is fuelling far right/nationalists - I don't know, it feels a bit fucked either way)


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## gosub (Jun 4, 2016)

H. M. G.  Told you what the 4 options were,  that vote leave ignored the doable two doesn't mean HMG will.  Vote Leave have explicitly said it would be down to the government


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## gosub (Jun 4, 2016)

Dogsauce said:


> Personally, I'm less worried about the empowerment of Boris (who's main interest is in keeping the EU's increased appetite for the scrutiny of dodgy tax deals away from his hedge fund/trust fund mates - hence the funding of Leave by those types) and more concerned with the likes of Le Pen, Wilders etc. as they're the ones waiting to fill the void of a collapsed European Union, an equivalent left alternative is much further away from taking the helm. The desperate playing of the anti-immigrant card in the last couple of weeks emphasises that Brexit will be celebrated as a victory for the right. It's two fingers to the Turks, not the establishment elite.
> 
> (Though in fairness it could be argued that the existence of the EU and associated political disempowerment is what is fuelling far right/nationalists - I don't know, it feels a bit fucked either way)


Fair point apart from the Boris bit,  Mr Johnson's main interest is Mr Johnson


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jun 4, 2016)

gosub said:


> Ignoring the problems of our parliament for a minute,  you've read Article 50? No way whoever gets lead negotiator role is going to go back and say "great news guys, only some of you are now second class citizens".
> 
> Nonsense on stilts


You think an exit from the EU wouldn't be dominated by talk about how to restrict immigration? How it might be done is another question, but that it would be right at the top of political debate is surely not in doubt. Farage and others would ensure it remained there.


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## gosub (Jun 4, 2016)

Must have missed a bye election .  Farage isn't even in Parliament.   UKIP s immigration spokesman (somebody has to do it I suppose) was bigging up the Norway leave method on World at One on radio 4 on bank holiday Monday


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## littlebabyjesus (Jun 4, 2016)

gosub said:


> Must have missed a bye election .  Farage isn't even in Parliament.   UKIP s immigration spokesman (somebody has to do it I suppose) was bigging up the Norway leave method on World at One on radio 4 on bank holiday Monday


It could well be that a post-EU UK would allow free movement of EU citizens and its net immigration would be unaffected. But there is no guarantee of that. If UKIP is bigging up Norway, which has greater immigration from the EU per capita than the UK, then they're being disingenuous. And the UK has a far more vicious political class than Norway, which has much more of a mixed economy than the UK. The SNP also cited Norway in its rhetoric, but the points of difference between Norway and the UK both politically and socially are so enormous that such comparisons are pretty fatuous.


----------



## belboid (Jun 4, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Well, history tells us that capital only makes concessions when it has the fear. We have to be the fear...somehow.


Voting against what they are telling us we have to do would seem like a decent place to start.


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## weltweit (Jun 4, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> What? My point was that both you and weltweit (and your by no means alone) talked about a _*Brexit policy*_, equating the people in that list with UKIP, Johnson etc, effectively calling them supporters of anti-immigrant measures. If you can't see that that is out of order then you're the same type of liberal wanker that weltweit and co are.


I don't know why you are having a go at me. Someone asked what Brexit policy on immigration was and as I have heard quite a number of brexiters talk about the Australian points system, I responded with that. I haven't referred to people on that list at all, I know there are many and varied reasons people have which persuade them to vote in or out.


----------



## gosub (Jun 4, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> It could well be that a post-EU UK would allow free movement of EU citizens and its net immigration would be unaffected. But there is no guarantee of that. If UKIP is bigging up Norway, which has greater immigration from the EU per capita than the UK, then they're being disingenuous. And the UK has a far more vicious political class than Norway, which has much more of a mixed economy than the UK. The SNP also cited Norway in its rhetoric, but the points of difference between Norway and the UK both politically and socially are so enormous that such comparisons are pretty fatuous.


Norway immigration is about 2%higher but opted into Shengen. The politics of Norway irrelevant-it's short hand for an out model. 
What I have maintained is remain or leave isn't going to impact on immigration


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## Obediah Marsh (Jun 4, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> If UKIP is bigging up Norway, which has greater immigration from the EU per capita than the UK, then they're being disingenuous.


That party is run by fools or liars, though I don't know which.


----------



## hot air baboon (Jun 4, 2016)

Ambrose Evans Pritchard's take on the issue ".....accepting the Norwegian option of the European Economic Area (EEA) - a 'soft exit' - as a half-way house until the new order is established....."


Leave camp must accept that Norway model is the only safe way to exit EU


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## not-bono-ever (Jun 5, 2016)

That article is interesting- one point made regards Norways non adoption of many EU regs, which is true- but Norway is fairly unique in the structure of its economy and exports that the rules relate to ( as mentioned previously in other posts)- when was the last time you bought a norgwegian product? um..maybe some crude derivative or a bit of cheese...


----------



## not-bono-ever (Jun 5, 2016)

bluescreen said:


> Convince me that the Brexiters *aren't* more committed to voting than the Remainers and I'll take all the stated voting intentions more seriously.




anecdotal.so worth fuck all. but friends of friends on FB i.e. people who i left in my old home town and was glad to see the back of - are rabidly posting the vote issue. One twat has even posted up a snapshot of his online vote registration application. This cunt has never ever registered to vote. thats about 30 adult years. 30 fucking years.


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## Mr.Bishie (Jun 5, 2016)

not-bono-ever said:


> anecdotal.so worth fuck all. but friends of friends on FB i.e. people who i left in my old home town and was glad to see the back of - are rabidly posting the vote issue. One twat has even posted up a snapshot of his online vote registration application. This cunt has never ever registered to vote. thats about 30 adult years. 30 fucking years.



Deserves his hands chopping off.


----------



## redsquirrel (Jun 5, 2016)

weltweit said:


> I don't know why you are having a go at me. Someone asked what Brexit policy on immigration was and as I have heard quite a number of brexiters talk about the Australian points system, I responded with that. I haven't referred to people on that list at all, I know there are many and varied reasons people have which persuade them to vote in or out.


Which "brexiters"? Anyone on U75? And you did refer to people on that list when you rolled them into the same group and Vote Leave, Johnson, Field, UKIP etc.

More widely I'm "having a go at you" because you have consistently parroted the liberal pro-EU line - that it's good for _our_ economy, that it's pro-freedom of movement (while ignoring the Turkey deal of course, I don't see much freedom of movement for Syrian refugees), all the usual bullshit summarised by these people. Whether they will vote Remain, Leave or abstain any socialist worth their salt would spit on your arguments.


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## Mr.Bishie (Jun 5, 2016)

Don't be too harsh on Welty


----------



## weltweit (Jun 5, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> Which "brexiters"? Anyone on U75? And you did refer to people on that list when you rolled them into the same group and Vote Leave, Johnson, Field, UKIP etc.


I don't see U75 brexiters as close to taking power. Whereas it is possible if there is an out vote that Johnson Gove Patel et al might take over from Cameron and then they would start implementing THEIR policies, not those of U75 out voters.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 5, 2016)

We don't live in a dictatorship weltweit. The tories have a wafer-thin majority and have had to do a u-turn on almost everything they have proposed so far this parliament. Being out of the EU isn't going to change this. Brexit won't result in the sweep to power of a Fluffy-haired Fuhrer,  imposing upon us a libertarian dystopia. What will happen, however, is that the bargaining power of employees might increase slightly due to there being a smaller reserve labour force.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 5, 2016)

Attended the 'People's PPE' event at Queen Mary's yesterday, (I know), and heard a speaker from the (WRP) 'Workers International (to rebuild the 4th International)' calling for a "Remain" vote from the class.



> Britain is to vote on the question of staying in the EU in a referendum on 23rd June this year. Clearly neither staying nor leaving will in itself improve the conditions of the working class. So is it better for the working class of Britain to vote to leave the EU? After all, "the EU is a reactionary bosses' club and we must determinedly oppose it" – which is true – and having to leave the EU may destabilise not only the Tory government but the whole state, possibly leading to a breakup of the United Kingdom? This tactic is favoured by many on the extreme left.





> Or is it better to respect another indubitable fact: the EU is an expression of "the impossibility of the productive forces - science, technique and the organisation of labour - being contained within the narrow limits of the nation state and private ownership"? *The working class cannot be in favour of pushing the productive forces back into the narrow limits of the nation state. This means that the working class of Britain has to vote to stay in the EU and push for reforms to make it fit for the working people.* This tactic was adopted by the Labour Party led by Jeremy Corbyn.



FWIW.​


----------



## Libertad (Jun 5, 2016)

weltweit said:


> I don't see U75 brexiters as close to taking power. Whereas it is possible if there is an out vote that Johnson Gove Patel et al might take over from Cameron and then they would start implementing THEIR policies, not those of U75 out voters.



Don't be so sure, we have the Workers' Bomb.

Then raise the Workers' Bomb on high, 
Beneath its cloud we'll gladly die, 
For though it sends us all to hell, 
It kills the ruling class as well.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 5, 2016)

Libertad said:


> Don't be so sure, we have the Workers' Bomb.
> 
> Then raise the Workers' Bomb on high,
> Beneath its cloud we'll gladly die,
> ...


----------



## J Ed (Jun 5, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Attended the 'People's PPE' event at Queen Mary's yesterday, (I know), and heard a speaker from the (WRP) 'Workers International (to rebuild the 4th International)' calling for a "Remain" vote from the class.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Glad to see that the Labour Left aren't shy about bringing in outside forces that will confer massive legitimacy on them... like the WRP. Honestly after watching the Vice documentary I am starting to think that there is a level of incompetence at play that I either had not realised or had intentionally ignored. I assumed that there was stuff going on in the background, that someone was creating a Jeff Weaver style social media strategy or something... but it doesn't look like that is what is happening.


----------



## stethoscope (Jun 5, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Attended the 'People's PPE' event at Queen Mary's yesterday, (I know), and heard a speaker from the (WRP) 'Workers International (to rebuild the 4th International)' calling for a "Remain" vote from the class.
> FWIW.​



Meanwhile the other face of the 4th International, the Socialist Equality Party, are calling for an abstain


----------



## weltweit (Jun 5, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> We don't live in a dictatorship weltweit. The tories have a wafer-thin majority and have had to do a u-turn on almost everything they have proposed so far this parliament. Being out of the EU isn't going to change this. Brexit won't result in the sweep to power of a Fluffy-haired Fuhrer,  imposing upon us a libertarian dystopia. What will happen, however, is that the bargaining power of employees might increase slightly due to there being a smaller reserve labour force.


You are of course right about the tories majority and it is a good point.
On the labour force, my worry is that an out vote will result in fewer jobs.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 5, 2016)

Also FWIW, being surrounded by (mostly) evangelical 'remainarian' Labour activists....their mood was not good. Many spoke of a very poor reaction from 'Labour voters' 'on the doorsteps', at best described as apathetic. There seemed to be a general feeling of fear &  frustration from what were mainly London based activists.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 5, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> Meanwhile the other face of the 4th International, the Socialist Equality Party, are calling for an abstain


There must be some trots calling for Leave, as well?


----------



## J Ed (Jun 5, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Also FWIW, being surrounded by (mostly) evangelical 'remainarian' Labour activists....their mood was not good. Many spoke of a very poor reaction from 'Labour voters' 'on the doorsteps', at best described as apathetic. There seemed to be a general feeling of fear &  frustration from what were mainly London based activists.



Yes but a lot of the remain people have worked themselves into an irrational frenzy, they genuinely think that June 24th is going to be an Indian partition style population transfer.


----------



## J Ed (Jun 5, 2016)

Remain supporters, and the Spanish government, have undoubtedly caused a lot of unnecessary distress to a lot of people by either outright saying or heavily implying that Britain leaving the EU would lead to mass deportations of Brits in Europe and of Europeans in Britain. That being said, I've talked to Leave supporters who think something similar will happen too and will be very disappointed when it doesn't happen if their side wins.

It all goes to show just how out of touch with reality both sides of the referendum are.


----------



## stethoscope (Jun 5, 2016)

brogdale said:


> There must be some trots calling for Leave, as well?



I'm sure SWP are calling for exit?!


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 5, 2016)

brogdale said:


> There must be some trots calling for Leave, as well?


SP = out
SWP = Largely out


----------



## brogdale (Jun 5, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> SP = out
> SWP = Largely out


_Housey, housey!_


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 5, 2016)

(not trots) ICC/CWO = not abstain, just have nothing to do with it.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 5, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> (not trots) ICC/CWO = not abstain, just have nothing to do with it.


Blimey, I find myself fellow-travelling with the tankies!

Looks like we have the makings of some sort of flow-chart going on here?


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 5, 2016)

weltweit said:


> You are of course right about the tories majority and it is a good point.
> On the labour force, my worry is that an out vote will result in fewer jobs.



Well it's fairly certain that a recession is on the cards, and that Brexit could bring it about sooner rather than later. But a recession is coming whether we remain in the EU or not, and in the long run our bargaining power is effected more by structural changes than the temporary ups and downs of the economy. Leaving the EU is one such structural change.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 5, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Blimey, I find myself fellow-travelling with the tankies!
> 
> Looks like we have the makings of some sort of flow-chart going on here?


They're not tankies, they're fiercely anti-stalinist! The CPGB (who are really trots) are also boycott.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 5, 2016)

(yet more) Beyond irony...


> The NHS would be as safe as a pet hamster in the presence of hungry python if Boris Johnson, Michael Gove and Iain Duncan Smith rose to power following Brexit, Sir John Major has said.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 5, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> They're not tankies, they're fiercely anti-stalinist! The CPGB (who are really trots) are also boycott.


Phew...what a relief!


----------



## gosub (Jun 5, 2016)

weltweit said:


> I don't see U75 brexiters as close to taking power. Whereas it is possible if there is an out vote that Johnson Gove Patel et al might take over from Cameron and then they would start implementing THEIR policies, not those of U75 out voters.



Sunday Politics did five minutes on how this administration is fucked no matter what, effectively a minority government either way.


----------



## Mr Moose (Jun 5, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> We don't live in a dictatorship weltweit. The tories have a wafer-thin majority and have had to do a u-turn on almost everything they have proposed so far this parliament. Being out of the EU isn't going to change this. Brexit won't result in the sweep to power of a Fluffy-haired Fuhrer,  imposing upon us a libertarian dystopia. What will happen, however, is that the bargaining power of employees might increase slightly due to there being a smaller reserve labour force.



Except there won't be a smaller reserve labour force. We will have the whole world to draw in labour from. Bargaining power of workers will hit rock bottom if the nonsense economy contracts and Boris gets his stated aim of pruning the social chapter (what other 'red tape' is there really?).

It's true that no choice is offered between neo-liberalism and neo-liberalism, but it's indulgent to say nothing is at stake.

And the EU has absorbed seven figure + of migrants. They are not going to go to China or the US or Brazil. The EU's ability to stop being shit at it is important for them. If it just gets trashed, right now, no prospects other than the hardest of borders go up everywhere. And it's hard enough now.


----------



## weltweit (Jun 5, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> Well it's fairly certain that a recession is on the cards, and that Brexit could bring it about sooner rather than later. But a recession is coming whether we remain in the EU or not, and in the long run our bargaining power is effected more by structural changes than the temporary ups and downs of the economy. Leaving the EU is one such structural change.


Leaving the EU may be a "structural change" but you will have to go some to persuade me it's in anyone's best interests. And of course it depends what you mean when you say "leaving the EU" ..


----------



## Corax (Jun 5, 2016)

You've got to just ask yourself - WWHD?


----------



## brogdale (Jun 5, 2016)

Corax said:


> You've got to just ask yourself - WWHD?


Who knows?

But...._They'd send a limousine anyway._


----------



## belboid (Jun 5, 2016)

Adam from The Archers is for out, always more politically astute than dreary Dave


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 5, 2016)

belboid said:


> Adam from The Archers is for out, always more politically astute than dreary Dave


Which way is rob going, I'll vote the other way


----------



## belboid (Jun 5, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> Which way is rob going, I'll vote the other way


I think even Farage would consider changing his mind were they on the same side.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Jun 5, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> Which way is rob going, I'll vote the other way



He'll be voting out to secure Gideon's future free from the emasculating influence of Brussels.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## treelover (Jun 5, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> Meanwhile the other face of the 4th International, the Socialist Equality Party, are calling for an abstain




Well, at the Another Europe is Possible event here, the SWP were giving out leaflets, didn't take one, but imagine my suprise when they didn't enter the building, they are outers!


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 5, 2016)

Louis MacNeice said:


> He'll be voting out to secure Gideon's future free from the emasculating influence of Brussels.
> 
> Cheers - Louis MacNeice


yeh but is gideon in this case really g. osborne?


----------



## J Ed (Jun 5, 2016)

I can't wait for all of this to be over, I can't imagine the boredom of people who have no interest in politics.


----------



## gosub (Jun 5, 2016)

weltweit said:


> Leaving the EU may be a "structural change" but you will have to go some to persuade me it's in anyone's best interests. And of course it depends what you mean when you say "leaving the EU" ..


Look at what Cameron's reform agenda actually achieved to see what is change actually possible on an in tip (fuck all)  apart from maybe single market for services (but that includes health care and even if TTIP is fucked over,  EUropean companies are going to want a piece of us.   
Chipping in without doing CAP or CFP seems a no brainer,  and as to more transparent interface with global governance - if you can name all the MEP's that represent you (without  googling) you are a freak let alone knowing their 'interests'


----------



## laptop (Jun 5, 2016)

BTW, "TTIP is dead" - according to one MEP I met last week.


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Jun 5, 2016)

laptop said:


> BTW, "TTIP is dead" - according to one MEP I met last week.



Does that MEP stand to make a lot of money from privatisation?


----------



## laptop (Jun 5, 2016)

Bernie Gunther said:


> Does that MEP stand to make a lot of money from privatisation?


Very much doubt it, in this case.


----------



## emanymton (Jun 6, 2016)

treelover said:


> Well, at the Another Europe is Possible event here, the SWP were giving out leaflets, didn't take one, but imagine my suprise when they didn't enter the building, they are outers!


For some one who goes on about the SWP all the time, you don't seem to know much about them. There is nothing surprising about them being leave.


----------



## ElizabethofYork (Jun 6, 2016)

For the undecided:

How to vote in the EU referendum - Martin Lewis' Blog...


----------



## gosub (Jun 6, 2016)

MPs 'considering using majority' to keep UK in single market - BBC News


----------



## brogdale (Jun 6, 2016)

ElizabethofYork said:


> For the undecided:
> 
> How to vote in the EU referendum - Martin Lewis' Blog...


From the man/company that shilled for the Government's student loans, then...after a couple of years, recanted and admitted that they're a rip-off.


----------



## weltweit (Jun 6, 2016)

gosub said:


> MPs 'considering using majority' to keep UK in single market - BBC News


According to that article: Justice Secretary Michael Gove has said he wants the UK to leave the single market


----------



## belboid (Jun 6, 2016)

weltweit said:


> According to that article: Justice Secretary Michael Gove has said he wants the UK to leave the single market


He has, boris has kept his gob shut, funnily enough


----------



## gosub (Jun 6, 2016)

weltweit said:


> According to that article: Justice Secretary Michael Gove has said he wants the UK to leave the single market




Can I take this opportunity to say I want to win the lottery.
Probably wait until I get the giant check before I think about how I'm spending it.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 6, 2016)

It's pronounced "wunt".....according to JM.


----------



## gosub (Jun 6, 2016)

belboid said:


> He has, boris has kept his gob shut, funnily enough


Apart  from the bits where he attacked Cameron for making immigration pledges he couldn't meet. (Had one of the from Gove at the weekend too)


----------



## gosub (Jun 6, 2016)

brogdale said:


> It's pronounced "wunt".....according to JM.



Over my head, google has radio stations and a Sussex word which seems more like  won't.


----------



## redsquirrel (Jun 6, 2016)

weltweit said:


> I don't see U75 brexiters as close to taking power. Whereas it is possible if there is an out vote that Johnson Gove Patel et al might take over from Cameron and then they would start implementing THEIR policies, not those of U75 out voters.


The exact same argument applies to Remain, if the UK doesn't leave Cameron, Junker, Merkel etc will implement their policies -  subjecting the people of Greece to massive austerity, sending Syrian refugees back. Perhaps you support those things, but I don't think most left wing Remain voters do and I'm because I'm not a twat I can recognise that.


----------



## belboid (Jun 6, 2016)

gosub said:


> Apart  from the bits where he attacked Cameron for making immigration pledges he couldn't meet. (Had one of the from Gove at the weekend too)


That's not on the 'single market, which was what we were talking about


----------



## gosub (Jun 6, 2016)

belboid said:


> That's not on the 'single market, which was what we were talking about



If, as they have done, called Cameron cynical for making immigration pledges he can't keep due to freedom of movement, you are attacking the same Single Market as that's got freedom of movement as one of its 4 pillars.  Cynical^2 as I said before.

They had Carswell on the Daily Politics and getting stuff through Parliament and the Norway Option came up....Carswell said 'ignoring the will of the people was not a good look'. Firstly I am voting OUT well aware it would be the Norway Option, at this stage non-Single Market as well as impossible, disastrous. But if you are saying you don't want the grown up's vote; after the embarrassment of a campaign your mob has run...walking away from 20 years of fighting for consultation....abstain is very much an option.  Second "Ignoring the will of the people' so parliamentary sovereignty goes out the window if doesn't suit you (much like the independence of the Bank of England), and it was the "will of the people" that selected these MP's - if have wanted to fill it with people hysterically ranting of rape gangs crossing the channel, we had that opportunity -THANK FUCK WE DIDN'T TAKE IT.

I found David Mitchell's latest piece rather snide, it is right and proper that they finally take a bearing in the form of a referendum, but it is only a bearing, not direct democracy, our elected representatives are amply paid to sweat the detail. Thirdly I'd say 'public will' was that you gave them more than back of an envelope vagaries and contradictions when making what could be a hugely important decision - its not like Leave haven't had time to do their homework.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 6, 2016)

Mitchell is the sort of well fed democrat who i could imagine following a strong leader.


----------



## gosub (Jun 6, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Mitchell is the sort of well fed democrat who i could imagine following a strong leader.


That he was probably at uni with... 

That article had a nasty whiff of 'those people's opinion shouldn't count',  But equally passed with Cars well - that's a Hitleresque abuse of referendums.  Otherwise let's have referendum on whether we get a free gold brick off the government and trust the people.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 6, 2016)

The well fed fear of the plebiscite began with napoleon and so fits in with the fears of the well fed that it's not true.


----------



## gosub (Jun 6, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> The well fed fear of the plebiscite began with napoleon and so fits in with the fears of the well fed that it's not true.


Your political history is better than mine, was unhappy about breaching Godwin's Law, but couldn't think of anyone   else who so perverted democracy by abusing referendums that they have had to outlaws referendums in Germany ever since.
I get that given the nature of the way things work UKIPers could feel aggrieved that they only ended up with one MP, had it gone like SNP they'd still only have 50, hardly enough to dictate the nature of our leaving.


You need a balance between trend and detail.  We have that in our current system.


----------



## weltweit (Jun 6, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> The exact same argument applies to Remain, if the UK doesn't leave Cameron, Junker, Merkel etc will implement their policies -  subjecting the people of Greece to massive austerity, sending Syrian refugees back. Perhaps you support those things, but I don't think most left wing Remain voters do and I'm because I'm not a twat I can recognise that.


Junker and Merkel will continue with whatever policies they have in mind no matter if Britain is in or out and I am not sure how much our referendum will have a bearing on Greece or Syria.


----------



## weltweit (Jun 6, 2016)

gosub said:


> Chipping in without doing CAP or CFP seems a no brainer,  and as to more transparent interface with global governance - if you can name all the MEP's that represent you (without  googling) you are a freak let alone knowing their 'interests'


I can't name my MEPs no.


----------



## cantsin (Jun 6, 2016)

just in case this hasn't been on here before : Exit Left: the Socialist Case for Britain Leaving the EU


----------



## redsquirrel (Jun 6, 2016)

weltweit said:


> Junker and Merkel will continue with whatever policies they have in mind no matter if Britain is in or out and I am not sure how much our referendum will have a bearing on Greece or Syria.


Whether thats true or not, it misses the point. You claim Leave voters are supporting the attacking immigrants based on the views of Gove, Johnson and Farage, then logically Remain voters must be supporting of the policies of Cameron, Junker, Merkel and Osbourne.

Or we can take the sensible view that an individual may be for Leave or Remain for totally different reasons than the offical groups and that their vote doesn't imply support for either of the mainstream positions.


----------



## weltweit (Jun 7, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> Whether thats true or not, it misses the point. You claim Leave voters are supporting the attacking immigrants based on the views of Gove, Johnson and Farage, then logically Remain voters must be supporting of the policies of Cameron, Junker, Merkel and Osbourne.


I don't think I have claimed that though and I understand your point. What I probably have claimed and would is that reasonable leave voters should be wary of the company they are inadvertently keeping, because obviously there are a lot of far right little Britain anti immigration people prominent in the leave campaign. And they will likely feel they have a political mandate should leave win the day.


redsquirrel said:


> Or we can take the sensible view that an individual may be for Leave or Remain for totally different reasons than the offical groups and that their vote doesn't imply support for either of the mainstream positions.


I accept that, but it is also worrying that a vote remain will see Cameron feel politically vindicated and a vote leave will likely see Johnson Gove & Farage feeling they have a mandate. But I am not sure how we get around this.


----------



## YouSir (Jun 7, 2016)

weltweit said:


> I don't think I have claimed that though and I understand your point. What I probably have claimed and would is that reasonable leave voters should be wary of the company they are inadvertently keeping, because obviously there are a lot of far right little Britain anti immigration people prominent in the leave campaign. And they will likely feel they have a political mandate should leave win the day.
> 
> I accept that, but it is also worrying that a vote remain will see Cameron feel politically vindicated and a vote leave will likely see Johnson Gove & Farage feeling they have a mandate. But I am not sure how we get around this.



There is no way around it, voting either way you serve and hurt the interests of one side of capital or another. As well as encouraging one brand of loon or another. Pointless to focus on it though, this is a vote which will show its effects over decades and centuries, it's far, far bigger than the temporary fluctuations in Parliament.


----------



## weltweit (Jun 7, 2016)

YouSir said:


> .. this is a vote which will show its effects over decades and centuries, it's far, far bigger than the temporary fluctuations in Parliament.


This is my worry, there will be other opportunities to vote leave in the future, but I think if we are out we are out ..


----------



## redsquirrel (Jun 7, 2016)

weltweit said:


> What I probably have claimed and would is that reasonable leave voters should be wary of the company they are inadvertently keeping, because obviously there are a lot of far right little Britain anti immigration people prominent in the leave campaign. And they will likely feel they have a political mandate should leave win the day.


And same doesn't apply to Remain. Again total hypocrisy.


----------



## YouSir (Jun 7, 2016)

weltweit said:


> This is my worry, there will be other opportunities to vote leave in the future, but I think if we are out we are out ..



Not for a fair few decades there won't be. On the other hand there'll be an election soon and if you don't have any hope that the Tories can be ousted then it makes no difference either way. In or Out they'll continue to do what they do.


----------



## weltweit (Jun 7, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> And same doesn't apply to Remain. Again total hypocrisy.


No, I accept the same argument with remain, except that obviously because I am a remain voter I don't rate the others sharing that particular ticket as quite as loony as those on leave's.


----------



## weltweit (Jun 7, 2016)

YouSir said:


> Not for a fair few decades there won't be. On the other hand there'll be an election soon and if you don't have any hope that the Tories can be ousted then it makes no difference either way. In or Out they'll continue to do what they do.


But if an EU treaty threatens to deny powers from Westminster there will be a referendum, that is my understand from Cameron's recent requests.

On government, I like the idea of a Corbyn government, it would be nice for once to have a politician in power who actually has some convictions.


----------



## Dogsauce (Jun 7, 2016)

weltweit said:


> I accept that, but it is also worrying that a vote remain will see Cameron feel politically vindicated and a vote leave will likely see Johnson Gove & Farage feeling they have a mandate. But I am not sure how we get around this.



Cameron is already intending to leave the game, and is already damaged no matter what the result. I'd rather the mantle passed to Gideon (unelectable and weird) for being on the 'right side' than Johnson as he's a more plausible candidate with the electorate.


----------



## gosub (Jun 7, 2016)

weltweit said:


> Junker and Merkel will continue with whatever policies they have in mind no matter if Britain is in or out and I am not sure how much our referendum will have a bearing on Greece or Syria.



Greece is a reluctant NATO issue.  EUNAVFOR is off the coast of Libyia, where there is far higher numbers of migrants trying to travel.   The EU army issue is postponed until the week after our referendum.   There is already a fledgling EUro army EUrocorps based out of Strasbourg, outside NATO and 9 member states contributing approx 3000 troops.	To some extent could fill an area NATO and the US don't really want to get sucked into, but we are not a member. If we did join, given the forthcoming Chilcot report, would probably make any forthcoming operations harder and in addition Article 4.3 means we couldn't join to put a spanner in the works.  I am quite glad we aren't involved that article 4.3 issue makes it far too easy for a state to reluctantly get sucked into a war the military industrial complex wants, and hard to get out.

It is an area we have lost control of the ability to shape things, instead the Defense Minister et al pretend it isn't happening, and can't happen cos we have a veto.  Theoretically we could veto a deployment if the vote is remain but I don't think it would achieve anything other than make us look ridiculous and actually undermine NATO.


----------



## sim667 (Jun 7, 2016)

Apparently the vote leave campaign put up a fake electoral registration website form, which simply subscribed you to their mailing list.... Of course its quietly been deleted.

Cheeky cunts.


----------



## two sheds (Jun 7, 2016)

sim667 said:


> Apparently the vote leave campaign put up a fake electoral registration website form, which simply subscribed you to their mailing list.... Of course its quietly been deleted.
> 
> Cheeky cunts.



How fucking stupid is that? Besides making them look as dodgy as fuck and you'd imagine actually being illegal they're making people who are likely to vote Leave think they're registered when they're not. 

Reported on Vote Leave accused of ‘disenfranchising’ people trying to register to vote with misleading website


----------



## gosub (Jun 7, 2016)

two sheds said:


> How fucking stupid is that? Besides making them look as dodgy as fuck and you'd imagine actually being illegal they're making people who are likely to vote Leave think they're registered when they're not.
> 
> Reported on Vote Leave accused of ‘disenfranchising’ people trying to register to vote with misleading website


People have been saying since before Xmas that VL are more interested in data mining than winning the referendums.....pretty damning evidence.


----------



## Yossarian (Jun 10, 2016)

Whoops, forgot to register for a postal vote - I don't understand how the polls are even close on the issue, anyway, has the Remain side totally failed to explain to people that their houses will be worth less and their holidays will cost more if Britain leaves the EU?


----------



## J Ed (Jun 10, 2016)

The momentum really seems to be with Leave atm


----------



## William of Walworth (Jun 10, 2016)

I doubt that that data mining 'scandal' linked to above will have much if any impact. People becoming determined to Vote Leave will continue to be, whatever happens.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 10, 2016)

J Ed said:


> The momentum really seems to be with Leave atm


Not according to the 'wisdom' of (gambling) crowds...



nb. there hasn't been any new polling for 4 days now.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 10, 2016)

The smug liberal gloating that will accompany a remain victory might well be unbearable enough to drive me over the edge.


----------



## Yossarian (Jun 10, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Not according to the 'wisdom' of (gambling) crowds...
> 
> 
> 
> nb. there hasn't been any new polling for 4 days now.




Those betting figures seem a little more realistic than the polls showing Leave even or leading - hard to believe so many people would vote against their own economic self-interest for the sake of keep foreigners out.

If the Leave side does somehow win and I end up having to trade in my EU passport for some UK-only document, I'm going to rip out Boris Johnson's heart and show it to him.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 10, 2016)

Yossarian said:


> Those betting figures seem a little more realistic than the polls showing Leave even or leading - hard to believe so many people would vote against their own economic self-interest for the sake of keep foreigners out.
> 
> If the Leave side does somehow win and I end up having to trade in my EU passport for some UK-only document, I'm going to rip out Boris Johnson's heart and show it to him.


I happen to agree that the sentiments of the betting market(s) seem more credible than a good deal of the polling, but...I don't share your disbelief at people voting against their own interests. 
Wren-Lewis puts this better that I can...


> But is support for Brexit really such a puzzle? The last eight odd years have not been so good. Real wages have seen a record fall. Public services, and particularly the NHS on whom pensioners particularly depend, has seen sharp cut backs and in recent years clearly deteriorating services. So people who have known better might naturally ask what has gone wrong.





> But supposing your only sources of information are the tabloid press and the broadcast media. You have been told by your government that funding for the NHS has been protected. The media hardly mention the financial crisis these days. Instead the newspapers you read tell you that the real problem at the moment is the large increase in immigration over the last decade, and this comes from freedom of movement in the EU. Politicians and the media seem to agree that this is a very important problem: immigration is hardly ever described in positive terms, and when it comes to refugees they are seen as a threat. You do not have that much contact with immigrants yourself, but some of the things you read about in the papers.


----------



## TopCat (Jun 10, 2016)

I'm voting out. Fuck this Capitalist bosses club.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 10, 2016)

TopCat said:


> I'm voting out. Fuck this Capitalist bosses club.


yeh an out vote to fuck shit up


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 10, 2016)

brogdale said:


> I happen to agree that the sentiments of the betting market(s) seem more credible than a good deal of the polling, but...I don't share your disbelief at people voting against their own interests.
> Wren-Lewis puts this better that I can...
> ​



Only stupid oiks who read the mail could possibly consider voting out, right? Idiots misled by the media into bigotry. The brainwashed unwashed. Vote remain for a progressive enlightened future!


----------



## redsquirrel (Jun 10, 2016)

Yossarian said:


> hard to believe so many people would vote against their own economic self-interest for the sake of keep foreigners out.


Yeah, that's it all those voting Leave are racists. Look at all these racists

alfajobrob, davesgcr, frogwoman, DotCommunist, butchersapron, Spymaster, xes, agricola, gosub, Cerberus, Fonzie Bear, Brixton Hatter, flypanam, Nigel Irritable, mwgdrwg, Virtual Blue, WouldBe, nuffsaid, denniseagle, maomao, killer b, ItWillNeverWork, belboid, moomoo, dennisr, MooChild, lizzieloo, 8ball, 1927, Louis MacNeice, roryer, magneze, Sirena, redsquirrel, Mation, Flavour, Signal 11, fishfinger, Fez909, Knotted, YouSir, steeplejack, militant atheist, Nigel, mk12, smokedout, Janh, joe_infinity, MikeMcc, ricbake, NoXion, Ranbay, Lo Siento, Tankus, Bahnhof Strasse, SpookyFrank, oztpo4, Tribeca, Libertad, josef1878, InfoBurner, kavenism, PandaCola, ffsear, RubyBlue, OneStrike, stethoscope, mather, dilberto, Manter, SpackleFrog

I probably won't be voting as my postal ballot still hasn't arrived but if I could, I'd vote leave just for the outside chance of seeing you and your mates cry.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 10, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> Only stupid oiks who read the mail could possibly consider voting out, right? Idiots misled by the media into bigotry. The brainwashed unwashed. Vote remain for a progressive enlightened future!


I think the hegemonic misleading of the older working class is more nuanced than some would have it. Many Brexit voters in the 55+ demographic have experienced the benefits of capital's post-war/system competition concessions, and the hardships/deterioration of public services associated with the neoliberal turn. That such life experiences coincide with the existence of the EEC/EC/EU can easily be manipulated by those happy to conflate correlation with causation for ideological goals.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 10, 2016)

brogdale said:


> I think the hegemonic misleading of the older working class is more nuanced than some would have it. Many Brexit voters in the 55+ demographic have experienced the benefits of capital's post-war/system competition concessions, and the hardships/deterioration of public services associated with the neoliberal turn. That such life experiences coincide with the existence of the EEC/EC/EU can easily be manipulated by those happy to conflate correlation with causation for ideological goals.



Much more nuanced. Thanks for that.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 10, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> Yeah, that's it all those voting Leave are racists. Look at all these racists
> 
> alfajobrob, davesgcr, frogwoman, DotCommunist, butchersapron, Spymaster, xes, agricola, gosub, Cerberus, Fonzie Bear, Brixton Hatter, flypanam, Nigel Irritable, mwgdrwg, Virtual Blue, WouldBe, nuffsaid, denniseagle, maomao, killer b, ItWillNeverWork, belboid, moomoo, dennisr, MooChild, lizzieloo, 8ball, 1927, Louis MacNeice, roryer, magneze, Sirena, redsquirrel, Mation, Flavour, Signal 11, fishfinger, Fez909, Knotted, YouSir, steeplejack, militant atheist, Nigel, mk12, smokedout, Janh, joe_infinity, MikeMcc, ricbake, NoXion, Ranbay, Lo Siento, Tankus, Bahnhof Strasse, SpookyFrank, oztpo4, Tribeca, Libertad, josef1878, InfoBurner, kavenism, PandaCola, ffsear, RubyBlue, OneStrike, stethoscope, mather, dilberto, Manter, SpackleFrog
> 
> I probably won't be voting as my postal ballot still hasn't arrived but if I could, I'd vote leave just for the outside chance of seeing you and your mates cry.


there's no option for changing vote but i would like my name added to the list


----------



## agricola (Jun 10, 2016)

brogdale said:


> I think the hegemonic misleading of the older working class is more nuanced than some would have it. Many Brexit voters in the 55+ demographic have experienced the benefits of capital's post-war/system competition concessions, and the hardships/deterioration of public services associated with the neoliberal turn. That such life experiences coincide with the existence of the EEC/EC/EU can easily be manipulated by those happy to conflate correlation with causation for ideological goals.



True.   Also I think one has to take into account that the main cheerleaders for Remain are the same people as have been seen to be so wrong on so many things in recent history.  I know what the advantages of EU membership are, but they are considerably obscured every time I see, hear or read Blair, Cameron or Osborne pointing them out.


----------



## newbie (Jun 10, 2016)

brogdale said:


> I think the hegemonic misleading of the older working class is more nuanced than some would have it. Many Brexit voters in the 55+ demographic have experienced the benefits of capital's post-war/system competition concessions, and the hardships/deterioration of public services associated with the neoliberal turn. That such life experiences coincide with the existence of the EEC/EC/EU can easily be manipulated by those happy to conflate correlation with causation for ideological goals.



this would be the same people who've dominated the voting for nulab and tories, yes?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 10, 2016)

newbie said:


> this would be the same people who've dominated the voting for nulab and tories, yes?


perhaps you could show your working


----------



## newbie (Jun 10, 2016)

we're continually told that older people are more likely to turn out to vote, so it's not much of a stretch to imagine that they're the ones who've determined the outcome of elections over the last couple of decades.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 10, 2016)

newbie said:


> we're continually told that older people are more likely to turn out to vote, so it's not much of a stretch to imagine that they're the ones who've determined the outcome of elections over the last couple of decades.


yeh. you'd think that. but as you are someone who is interested in elections, i am surprised you do not recall that many elections since 1992 have actually been decided by very few people. see e.g. Election 2015: the 10 key marginals that will decide the election


----------



## brogdale (Jun 10, 2016)

newbie said:


> this would be the same people who've dominated the voting for nulab and tories, yes?


Well, we were talking about people voting against their own (class) interests....so, yes I expect the cohort might make make up a considerable proportion of the voting for the parties of capital.


----------



## newbie (Jun 10, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh. you'd think that. but as you are someone who is interested in elections, i am surprised you do not recall that many elections since 1992 have actually been decided by very few people. see e.g. Election 2015: the 10 key marginals that will decide the election


now come on.  those marginals only 'decide' the outcome because results elsewhere are more predictable and cumulatively are rather evenly balanced.  That doesn't make people who vote elsewhere irrelevant or mean that the same marginals would be decisive if all older voters stayed at home.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 10, 2016)

newbie said:


> now come on.  those marginals only 'decide' the outcome because results elsewhere are more predictable and cumulatively are rather evenly balanced.  That doesn't make people who vote elsewhere irrelevant or mean that the same marginals would be decisive if all older voters stayed at home.


that shrieking sound is the moving of the goalposts


----------



## newbie (Jun 10, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Well, we were talking about people voting against their own (class) interests....so, yes I expect the cohort might make make up a considerable proportion of the voting for the parties of capital.



so on the one hand they've experienced "_the hardships/deterioration of public services associated with the neoliberal turn_" and on the other they're the ones who were instrumental in voting for it.

That's really all I'm saying, that the noise might be chickens coming home to roost.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 10, 2016)

newbie said:


> so on the one hand they've experienced "_the hardships/deterioration of public services associated with the neoliberal turn_" and on the other they're the ones who were instrumental in voting for it.
> 
> That's really all I'm saying, that the noise might be chickens coming home to roost.


Such a noise would presuppose that there had been no hegemonic mis-direction and that all those working class Brexiteers had purposely voted against their class interests?


----------



## newbie (Jun 10, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Such a noise would presuppose that there had been no hegemonic mis-direction and that all those working class Brexiteers had purposely voted against their class interests?


Sorry to be awkward but I'm not an academic- does "hegemonic mis-direction" mean the political argument that we're all subjected to and which sways our opinions?  If so then of course it affects how people vote.  if not, what does it mean?

Anyway, is class interest something that's both objective and unambiguous and, at the same time, that outweighs any consideration of personal opinion? If it is then yes, everybody w/c who has ever been persuaded by silver tongued mainstream politicians has indeed been conned.  If, otoh, there's even the slightest possibility politics is a bit more complicated than that, then maybe, just maybe, every individual in the country has opinions of their own and the agency to act, and vote, based on those opinions.


----------



## Yossarian (Jun 10, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> Yeah, that's it all those voting Leave are racists. Look at all these racists
> 
> alfajobrob, davesgcr, frogwoman, DotCommunist, butchersapron, Spymaster, xes, agricola, gosub, Cerberus, Fonzie Bear, Brixton Hatter, flypanam, Nigel Irritable, mwgdrwg, Virtual Blue, WouldBe, nuffsaid, denniseagle, maomao, killer b, ItWillNeverWork, belboid, moomoo, dennisr, MooChild, lizzieloo, 8ball, 1927, Louis MacNeice, roryer, magneze, Sirena, redsquirrel, Mation, Flavour, Signal 11, fishfinger, Fez909, Knotted, YouSir, steeplejack, militant atheist, Nigel, mk12, smokedout, Janh, joe_infinity, MikeMcc, ricbake, NoXion, Ranbay, Lo Siento, Tankus, Bahnhof Strasse, SpookyFrank, oztpo4, Tribeca, Libertad, josef1878, InfoBurner, kavenism, PandaCola, ffsear, RubyBlue, OneStrike, stethoscope, mather, dilberto, Manter, SpackleFrog
> 
> I probably won't be voting as my postal ballot still hasn't arrived but if I could, I'd vote leave just for the outside chance of seeing you and your mates cry.



Looks like my non-ballot cancels out yours.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 10, 2016)

newbie said:


> Sorry to be awkward but I'm not an academic- does "hegemonic mis-direction" mean the political argument that we're all subjected to and which sways our opinions?  If so then of course it affects how people vote.  if not, what does it mean?
> 
> Anyway, is class interest something that's both objective and unambiguous and, at the same time, that outweighs any consideration of personal opinion? If it is then yes, everybody w/c who has ever been persuaded by silver tongued mainstream politicians has indeed been conned.  If, otoh, there's even the slightest possibility politics is a bit more complicated than that, then maybe, just maybe, every individual in the country has opinions of their own and the agency to act, and vote, based on those opinions.


If you're seeking to blame workers for voting against their own class interests, then it would seem logical to downplay notions of cultural hegemony.


----------



## newbie (Jun 10, 2016)

I have no idea what you're talking about.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 11, 2016)

newbie said:


> I have no idea what you're talking about.


Just read the words.


----------



## William of Walworth (Jun 11, 2016)

Our postal votes just arrived in this morning's post. redsquirrel you'll probably get yours in time too, but it would be worth a phonecall next week if they're any more tardy in your area.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 11, 2016)

William of Walworth said:


> Our postal votes just arrived in this morning's post. redsquirrel you'll probably get yours in time too, but it would be worth a phonecall next week if they're any more tardy in your area.


That's austrailia. In this day and age the idea of an on-line vote...oh yeah massive fraud and manipulation Don't want that..


----------



## Wookey (Jun 11, 2016)

I just got back from the island of Rhodes to see my friends and I was gobsmacked at the lack of workers rights they seem to enjoy there. My friend works 9 a.m. to 1 p.m. and then 5 p.m. to 9 p.m. 6 days per week for £500. They treat him appallingly for example not telling him when his day off is until it's his day off. 

Some of the hotel staff on the island have not been paid for 3 months and can't complain or leave or they'll just be sacked. If they say anything they're threatened with the 2000 desperate workers waiting in the wings to get their shitty job...

If that's the European Union for you then I'm ashamed.


----------



## redsquirrel (Jun 11, 2016)

William of Walworth said:


> Our postal votes just arrived in this morning's post. redsquirrel you'll probably get yours in time too, but it would be worth a phonecall next week if they're any more tardy in your area.


Ta for the info William, but as BA said I'm down under so I think think it's probably too late.


----------



## newbie (Jun 11, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Just read the words.


I've read the words, they're written in the language of an academic or an ideologue.  They communicate nothing to me.


----------



## newbie (Jun 11, 2016)

the special issue of Spiegel in English has been published.  As I just ranted to my mate in Germany, being told what to do from that particular quarter isn't likely to go down too well.

Brexit: It's smarter to stay - SPIEGEL ONLINE


----------



## brogdale (Jun 11, 2016)

newbie said:


> I've read the words, they're written in the language of an academic or an ideologue.  They communicate nothing to me.


Nothing?
Oh.


----------



## newbie (Jun 11, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Nothing?
> Oh.


No. 

You're welcome to carry on like that if you wish but IME when people start lobbing stuff like "hegemonic mis-direction" into general conversation it's often because they've hopelessly misjudged their audience or because they're covering up that they've no coherent point to put across.  There are other possibilities but I'm trying to give the benefit of the doubt.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 11, 2016)

newbie said:


> No.
> 
> You're welcome to carry on like that if you wish but IME when people start lobbing stuff like "hegemonic mis-direction" into general conversation it's often because they've hopelessly misjudged their audience or because they're covering up that they've no coherent point to put across.  There are other possibilities but I'm trying to give the benefit of the doubt.


I may have mis-understood your point, but you appeared to be saying that the working class had no-one to blame, but themselves, for voting against their own (class) interest and bringing about the neoliberal processes that persuade them to vote Brexit.


----------



## hipipol (Jun 11, 2016)

brogdale said:


> I may have mis-understood your point, but you appeared to be saying that the working class had no-one to blame, but themselves, for voting against their own (class) interest and bringing about the neoliberal processes that persuade them to vote Brexit.


Can you translate for us oldies please?


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Jun 11, 2016)

brogdale said:


> I may have mis-understood your point, but you appeared to be saying that the working class had no-one to blame, but themselves, for voting against their own (class) interest and bringing about the neoliberal processes that persuade them to vote Brexit.


Im not sure you did mr "hegemonic misdirection" (I want to see how many times that can appear on this thread) -I'd also be interested to know who the hell it was they should have been voting for in '97.......folks usually suggest labour but in this case should have been a spoiled ballot or whit?​


----------



## brogdale (Jun 11, 2016)

hipipol said:


> Can you translate for us oldies please?


Which word?


----------



## Kaka Tim (Jun 11, 2016)

I was don't know - but the sight of wanker england fans kicking off in france has finally pushed me in the remain camp. The Referendum campaign has proved to be a massive boost for knuckle dragging xenophobic nationalism - a vote for brexit will only make that worse, ugly shit ahoy.


----------



## stethoscope (Jun 11, 2016)

Kaka Tim said:


> I was don't know - but the sight of wanker england fans kicking off in france has finally pushed me in the remain camp. The Referendum campaign has proved to be a massive boost for knuckle dragging xenophobic nationalism - a vote for brexit will only make that worse, ugly shit ahoy.



How's a remain going to make it any better? Arguably EU neoliberalism has contributed also towards the resurgence of this stuff. Bit more complex than the referendum and dickhead England and Russian fans kicking off.


----------



## Kaka Tim (Jun 11, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> How's a remain going to make it any better? Arguably EU neoliberalism has contributed towards the resurgence of this stuff. Bit more complex than dickhead England and Russian fans kicking off.



Because brexit is the home of the xenophobes and a victory for them will be a massive boost  and they will claim a democratic mandate for their shit. Can you imagine what it will be like on the night if they win? It'll be like the engerland posse in france - but out enmasse in every town centre  - aggressive, pissed up fuck wits singing rule Britannia, god save the queen and waving st george's flags - and with an added topping of not so latent racism. And that will be the mainstream dominant poltical discourse in the uk. 
Its the shame shit that milosovic stirred up in serbia, or that putins done in russia and that trumps doing in the US.  
Fuck that.


----------



## stethoscope (Jun 11, 2016)

Kaka Tim said:


> Because brexit is the home of the xenophobes and a victory for them will be a massive boost  and they will claim a democratic mandate for their shit.
> 
> Can you imagine what it will be like on the night if they win? It'll be like the engerland posse in france - but out enmasse in every town centre - aggressive, pissed up fuck wits singing rule Britannia, god save the queen and waving st george's flags - and with an added topping of not so latent racism. And that will be the mainstream dominant poltical discourse in the uk.
> Its the shame shit that milosovic stirred up in serbia, or that putins done in russia and that trumps doing in the US.
> Fuck that.



Yeah, I understand this for sure. But we're seeing unrest play out increasingly all over Europe (was reading something the other day about the far right as reaction to the neoliberal right). Sure we'll see crap like this which some will use the referendum as an excuse for such actions, but I don't think its really as a simple as the referendum. There's really serious problems within Europe that have been developing for a long while - regardless of whether the UK stays in or out.


----------



## chilango (Jun 11, 2016)

I think populist nationalism will get a boost from either result frankly.


----------



## stethoscope (Jun 11, 2016)

@butchersapron will have some wise thoughts about this stuff.

Especially as I've had a few drinks tonight and I'm tired and possibly not too coherent in what I'm trying to say.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jun 11, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> But we're seeing unrest play out increasingly all over Europe (was reading something the other day about the far right as reaction to the neoliberal right). Yeah we'll see crap like this play out because of the referendum, but I don't think its really as a simple as being made worse by the referendum. There's really serious problems within Europe - regardless of staying in or out.


There are serious problems in Europe regardless of staying in or out of the EU, yes, and the UK will be part of Europe and its problems regardless, too. Those serious problems are also very much playing themselves out here, and will continue to do so. 

Problem for me here is that the EU, shit as it is, all the criticisms of it as a capitalist club being entirely valid, isn't the worst of all possible worlds. A UK being driven by Atlanticists like Johnson and Gove, trying to out-neoliberalise the EU, is potentially even worse. And that's what I see on the table in front of me.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jun 11, 2016)

chilango said:


> I think populist nationalism will get a boost from either result frankly.


It gets a bigger boost from an out vote, surely.


----------



## gosub (Jun 11, 2016)

Facebook feeds of mates of mates (the mates in question aren't louty no reason to think their mates would be) supporters are having a tough time of it over there I wouldn't put it past Putin to have sent some agent provocateurs over.   

This in no way excuses arseholes reverting to type.


----------



## chilango (Jun 11, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> It gets a bigger boost from an out vote, surely.



A different boost.


----------



## newbie (Jun 11, 2016)

brogdale said:


> I may have mis-understood your point, but you appeared to be saying that the working class had no-one to blame, but themselves, for voting against their own (class) interest and bringing about the neoliberal processes that persuade them to vote Brexit.


I think you did.  Perhaps you believe that class interest is something that's both objective and unambiguous.

Equally I've almost certainly not understood your point, if you have one, but that's because of the silly jargon.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jun 11, 2016)

chilango said:


> A different boost.


It wins! The nationalists who see the EU as 'taking sovereignty' from the UK get the result they want. That's a boost towards a potential position of genuine power and influence. A remain vote isn't.


----------



## William of Walworth (Jun 11, 2016)

chilango said:
			
		

> I think populist nationalism will get a boost from either result frankly.





littlebabyjesus said:


> It gets a bigger boost from an out vote, surely.






			
				chilango said:
			
		

> A different boost.



I really really dislike that different boost though.

I'm also none too keen (to say the least) on whichever brand of Toryism/neoliberalism gains most from a Remain vote.

But for exactly for the same reasons as Kaka Tim posted, I felt I had little choice but to to vote Remain this morning, when I posted off my vote.

(Could have abstained  or voted spunking cock  --but I'm an old fashioned, OK old,  git who always votes    )

Simply* couldn't allow* myself to vote Out -- however strong Kelvin Hopkins's arguments were compared to the very feeble Caroline Lucas position

I think Kelvin underestimates the extent to which the vilest parts of the Right will benefit from a Brexit vote. He's also in my view well overoptimistic about any level of Left gain.

Not saying Remain-rightwingers are my friends or anything. Far from. Hence my severe lack of enthusiasm this morning when posting off my vote


----------



## gosub (Jun 11, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> It wins! The nationalists who see the EU as 'taking sovereignty' from the UK get the result they want. That's a boost towards a potential position of genuine power and influence. A remain vote isn't.


I would quibble at the pejorative use the word nationalism - that's where the demos is and the tax raising blah blah the alternative is Platonic caves within caves.   But think your main point stands


I remember years ago in thread years ago about the Falklands where you were explaining your displeasure and saying you had more affinity with global postal workers than nation states (couldn't find stuff online about what happened to port Stanley post office).   
But no matter what there has to be a tie in with geography. 
I quite like that we have a distaste for the flag wrapping patriotism in this country.  Am alarmed by the genie out of a bottle the official referendum has taken


----------



## stethoscope (Jun 11, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> There are serious problems in Europe regardless of staying in or out of the EU, yes, and the UK will be part of Europe and its problems regardless, too. Those serious problems are also very much playing themselves out here, and will continue to do so.
> 
> Problem for me here is that the EU, shit as it is, all the criticisms of it as a capitalist club being entirely valid, isn't the worst of all possible worlds. A UK being driven by Atlanticists like Johnson and Gove, trying to out-neoliberalise the EU, is potentially even worse. And that's what I see on the table in front of me.



I appreciate all those arguments.

But it was really a specific point about Kaka Tim's tieing in of English fans kicking off in Marseille and the referendum and deciding to vote remain because some elements will play off of the right-wing/xenophobic sentiment that's undoubtedly coming out of the referendum. Whilst I understand the (gut?) reaction I don't think remain is a simple response/answer to what we're seeing.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 11, 2016)

newbie said:


> I think you did.  Perhaps you believe that class interest is something that's both objective and unambiguous.
> 
> Equally I've almost certainly not understood your point, if you have one, but that's because of the silly jargon.


Until I pointed out that your argument suggested that older, working class Brexit supporters were responsible for the problems being exploited by 'Leave', you had seemed content to engage with my posts. Anyway, I get it; you don't like "jargon".


----------



## newbie (Jun 11, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Until I pointed out that your argument suggested that older, working class Brexit supporters were responsible for the problems being exploited by 'Leave', you had seemed content to engage with my posts. Anyway, I get it; you don't like "jargon".


Is that what you pointed out?  If you'd said that in the first place we could have had a discussion.

What problems do you think I'm blaming _older, working class Brexit supporters_ for?


----------



## brogdale (Jun 11, 2016)

newbie said:


> Is that what you pointed out?  If you'd said that in the first place we could have had a discussion.
> 
> What problems do you think I'm blaming _older, working class Brexit supporters_ for?





newbie said:


> so on the one hand they've experienced "_the hardships/deterioration of public services associated with the neoliberal turn_" and on the other *they're the ones who were instrumental in voting for it.
> 
> That's really all I'm saying, that the noise might be chickens coming home to roost.[*/QUOTE]


----------



## Kaka Tim (Jun 11, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> I appreciate all those arguments.
> 
> But it was really a specific point about Kaka tim's tieing in of English fans kicking off in Marseille and the referendum and deciding to vote remain because some elements will play off of the right-wing/xenophobic sentiment that's undoubtedly coming out of the referendum. Whilst I understand the (gut?) reaction I don't think remain is a simple response/answer to what we're seeing.



Its more a belief that the aggro in france is in some ways a direct consequence of the appeal to xenophobic nationalism being made by the brexiters - and for me this provided a stark illistration of what a brexit victory would represent. 

I dont think a "remain" vote is any sort of answer - that genie is already out of the bottle -  but a brexit victory will make it much harder to actually deal with the  upsurge in this sort of toxic nationalism. 

The argument about the relative demerits of exit or stay is redundant - it been reduced to "the sky will fall in!" versus "engerland engerland engerland!"


----------



## stethoscope (Jun 11, 2016)

Will have a bit more of a think about this stuff tomorrow Kaka Tim- I'm all in tonight!


----------



## gosub (Jun 11, 2016)

Kaka Tim said:


> ...
> 
> The argument about the relative demerits of exit or stay is redundant - it been reduced to "the sky will fall in!" versus "engerland engerland engerland!"



The route the mainstream has taken... this can only get more hardboiled and lead to aggro at the end (either way) .. Shame on political classes, the reality is miles apart.


----------



## newbie (Jun 12, 2016)

brogdale said:


> ...


oh right, I see.  Yes, I recognise that adults who actively participated in changing society (we're talking over 55s here, who've been able to vote in every election from 1979 on) bear some responsibility for what has happened.

Do you disagree?  Did it all just happen to us, were we just victims?  Or is there the slightest possibility that politics is a bit more complicated than that, and maybe, just maybe, every individual in the country has opinions of their own and the agency to act, and vote, based on those opinions?


----------



## 2hats (Jun 12, 2016)




----------



## brogdale (Jun 12, 2016)

newbie said:


> oh right, I see.  Yes, I recognise that adults who actively participated in changing society (we're talking over 55s here, who've been able to vote in every election from 1979 on) bear some responsibility for what has happened.
> 
> Do you disagree?  Did it all just happen to us, were we just victims?  Or is there the slightest possibility that politics is a bit more complicated than that, and maybe, just maybe, every individual in the country has opinions of their own and the agency to act, and vote, based on those opinions?


Setting aside your liberal faith in the individual, we are all victims of capitalism.
Just because working class people have been persuaded to vote against their own interests, in favour of neoliberal compliant politicians, does not mean they have actively participated in bringing about such change. You appear to be under the impression that politicians are running things?


----------



## newbie (Jun 12, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Setting aside your liberal faith in the individual, we are all victims of capitalism.
> Just because working class people have been persuaded to vote against their own interests, in favour of neoliberal compliant politicians, does not mean they have actively participated in bringing about such change. You appear to be under the impression that politicians are running things?


what do you mean "_against their own interests_"?  Who are you to judge?

I go back to what I've asked twice before: is class interest something that's both objective and unambiguous?


"_we are all victims of capitalism_"  Really, every single one of us?  Don't be absurd.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 12, 2016)

Kaka Tim said:


> Because brexit is the home of the xenophobes and a victory for them will be a massive boost  and they will claim a democratic mandate for their shit. Can you imagine what it will be like on the night if they win? It'll be like the engerland posse in france - but out enmasse in every town centre  - aggressive, pissed up fuck wits singing rule Britannia, god save the queen and waving st george's flags - and with an added topping of not so latent racism. And that will be the mainstream dominant poltical discourse in the uk.
> Its the shame shit that milosovic stirred up in serbia, or that putins done in russia and that trumps doing in the US.
> Fuck that.



I think your imagination is getting away with you slightly. Have a lie down.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 12, 2016)

Kaka Tim said:


> ...the aggro in france is in some ways a direct consequence of the appeal to xenophobic nationalism being made by the brexiters



Yeah, cus football hooligans never caused any trouble for anyone until brexit was on the cards.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 12, 2016)

newbie said:


> what do you mean "_against their own interests_"?  Who are you to judge?
> 
> I go back to what I've asked twice before: is class interest something that's both objective and unambiguous?
> 
> ...


Earlier you seemed to understand the nature of working class people voting against their own interests.

So, your position is that capitalism is not all bad, some (older) working class voters have created neoliberalism through their patterns of voting, now they don't like what they've brought about and, as a consequence, are voting Brexit?
Have you thought all this through?


----------



## stethoscope (Jun 12, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> Yeah, cus football hooligans never caused any trouble for anyone until brexit was on the cards.



Quite.

Also, that the rise of nationalism and the far right (which will no doubt, as history repeats, also exploit football as a vehicle for outpouring of nationalistic tendency) is as much a reaction to neoliberalism and right wing governments both of European countries and the machinations of the EU. Yes, clearly some of the tone of the referendum might feed into some of it, but that its the huge social, economic and political problems in Europe and of neoliberalism that's really the issue. I've already seen sneering middle class liberals use this shit on twitter to blanket link working class football fans to nationalism/racism and to the right 'exit' camp. It's easy and lazy, and it's almost always being used to reinforce why we should 'remain' (again, by middle class liberals).

I think what we're seeing here is clearly much bigger symptoms of the problems neoliberalism is creating across Europe, rather than some England footy fans using the right-wing 'exit' sentiment as a means to commit violence. Besides, looking at some coverage today, it looks to me like there's clearly organised Russian and French right-wing and 'ultra' stuff using the tournament and already high feelings about a number of social and economic issues right now to further try and exploit and play off it.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 12, 2016)

Kaka Tim said:


> a brexit victory will make it much harder to actually deal with the  upsurge in this sort of toxic nationalism.


Pls show your working





> The argument about the relative demerits of exit or stay is redundant - it been reduced to "the sky will fall in!" versus "engerland engerland engerland!"


I am impressed you don't fall into the same trap 

E2a: demerits?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 12, 2016)

newbie said:


> "_we are all victims of capitalism_"  Really, every single one of us?  Don't be absurd.


We are all victims of capitalism and not being aware of this doesn't mean you're not. For example, spending so much of your life on useless toil merely to survive not to mention the racism and sexism capitalism fosters.


----------



## gosub (Jun 12, 2016)

newbie said:


> "_we are all victims of capitalism_"  Really, every single one of us?  Don't be absurd.



Only met one billionaire that wasn't fucked up by it.  Usually they seem of the view that everyone is out to fleece them.


----------



## J Ed (Jun 12, 2016)

As long as the negative effects of neoliberalism are channelled into anti-immigrant sentiment, alongside anti-welfare sentiment, nationalism is going to be a powerful and growing political force in our society. This will happen within or outside the EU, the current government of Hungary makes Trump look like a tolerant liberal and support there is growing for an even further right party.


----------



## J Ed (Jun 12, 2016)

This is an interesting read about how things are in Hungarian politics now, and this is all within the EU. It seems that in 2016 the acceptable spectrum of politics within the EU goes from Tony Blair to very, very far-right indeed.


----------



## J Ed (Jun 12, 2016)

Leave still on 2/1 some places...


----------



## brogdale (Jun 12, 2016)

J Ed said:


> As long as the negative effects of neoliberalism are channelled into anti-immigrant sentiment, alongside anti-welfare sentiment, nationalism is going to be a powerful and growing political force in our society. This will happen within or outside the EU, the current government of Hungary makes Trump look like a tolerant liberal and support there is growing for an even further right party.


Indeed, but it is the case that, although voting either R or L inevitably entails alignment with one or other faction of neoliberalism, opting for Brexit does support the essentially nationalist notion that capitalism can be constrained (or challenged) within the constraints of the nation state.


----------



## belboid (Jun 12, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Indeed, but it is the case that, although voting either R or L inevitably entails alignment with one or other faction of neoliberalism, opting for Brexit does support the essentially nationalist notion that capitalism can be constrained (or challenged) within the constraints of the nation state.


so vote remain then you dithering twat.  Unless you just want to maintain your air of moral superiority, of course, which is all an abstention is


----------



## brogdale (Jun 12, 2016)

belboid said:


> so vote remain then you dithering twat.  Unless you just want to maintain your air of moral superiority, of course, which is all an abstention is


I'm not dithering at all, thanks.


----------



## redsquirrel (Jun 12, 2016)

J Ed said:


> As long as the negative effects of neoliberalism are channelled into anti-immigrant sentiment, alongside anti-welfare sentiment, nationalism is going to be a powerful and growing political force in our society. This will happen within or outside the EU, the current government of Hungary makes Trump look like a tolerant liberal and support there is growing for an even further right party.


And of course there are growing (far)-right parties in France, the Netherlands, Austria, Sweden, Poland ....


----------



## belboid (Jun 12, 2016)

brogdale said:


> I'm not dithering at all, thanks.


glad your moral superiority is holding up


----------



## brogdale (Jun 12, 2016)

belboid said:


> glad your moral superiority is holding up


If that's your perception, so be it...but being true to one's own beliefs does not have to equate to moral superiority. Nor have I claimed it; I see no _moral _position in this referendum.


----------



## seventh bullet (Jun 12, 2016)

Kaka Tim said:


> Because brexit is the home of the xenophobes and a victory for them will be a massive boost  and they will claim a democratic mandate for their shit. Can you imagine what it will be like on the night if they win? It'll be like the engerland posse in france - but out enmasse in every town centre  - aggressive, pissed up fuck wits singing rule Britannia, god save the queen and waving st george's flags - and with an added topping of not so latent racism. And that will be the mainstream dominant poltical discourse in the uk.
> Its the shame shit that milosovic stirred up in serbia, or that putins done in russia and that trumps doing in the US.
> Fuck that.



Putin has a worse far-right to deal with and the state is much more harsh in bringing out the ban hammer.


----------



## newbie (Jun 12, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Earlier you seemed to understand the nature of working class people voting against their own interests.
> 
> So, your position is that capitalism is not all bad, some (older) working class voters have created neoliberalism through their patterns of voting, now they don't like what they've brought about and, as a consequence, are voting Brexit?
> Have you thought all this through?


please stop wriggling.

Also I'd appreciate it if you didn't try to put words in my mouth: I have not said "_capitalism is not all bad_". 

You said


brogdale said:


> we are all victims of capitalism.
> Just because working class people have been persuaded to vote against their own interests, in favour of neoliberal compliant politicians, does not mean they have actively participated in bringing about such change.



the inescapable logic of that is that there is an objective and unambiguous (class) interest against which they can vote.  So why not just acknowledge that and we can move on?  

The fact is that you're tying yourself in knots to paint all over 55s- the baby boomers, of whom there are a disproportionate number- as (unwilling, passive) victims of neoliberalism, rather than recognising that many (not all) are demonstrably beneficiaries and all have had regular opportunities to change the political direction had they so chosen.  I don't know why you're doing that, care to explain?  

No government from 1979 onwards has been elected without the support of that group of voters, and arguably every time (except perhaps 1997) that they've not endorsed the status quo it's been to vote for an explicitly more not less neolib party.  If you'd bothered to peep out of your ivory tower you'd have noticed it happening.

And for an awful lot of them it has worked out rather beneficially.  Todays news mentions in passing “_The baby boomers are now making capital gains at the expense of their children. Between 2000 and 2014, average earnings rose by 51%, but average house prices rose by 132%._” There are loads of other examples of advantages they've taken yet denied to younger, less powerful generations (higher education grants, mutual financial institutions and strong trades unions for starters). Denied by voting with their feet as well as in elections.  If you're looking for victims of neoliberalism it is not all the over 55s as a group.

This is a referendum thread, so a bit of speculation: the same group of voters is once again going to play a significant, perhaps decisive, part in choosing the political direction of the country (and all of Europe come to that).  We're all, I think, agreed that there is no option for them to vote against neoliberalism (or capitalism) even if (by some miracle) they wanted to. To my eye there is no consensus, here or in the mainstream, on which outcome will best promote or hinder the neoliberal project (or 'capital' or 'the economy', whatever it's called).  There is, however, some suggestion that older working class voters are more likely to favour Out than In.   If I'm right, and they've consistently endorsed neoliberalism, then maybe there's a lesson there somewhere.  As a group they've been selfishly wrong all my life, am I really to believe they're voting altruistically now?

If no-one minds I'm not going to directly respond to the points made by others.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 12, 2016)

newbie said:


> please stop wriggling.
> 
> Also I'd appreciate it if you didn't try to put words in my mouth: I have not said "_capitalism is not all bad_".
> 
> ...


Any non-capitalist voting for (neolib) parties of capital is, by definition, voting against their own class interest. Anyone doing so, whether 55+ or not, demonstrates very clearly the persuasive power of cultural hegemonic processes in our bourgeois, representative democracy. 
I note that whilst you claim I inhabit an ivory tower (  )  you're happy to post preposterous guff like this:-


> _There is, however, some suggestion that older working class voters are more likely to favour Out than In.  If I'm right, and *they've consistently endorsed neoliberalism*, then maybe there's a lesson there somewhere.  As a group they've been selfishly wrong all my life, am I really to believe they're voting altruistically now?_


Please feel free to respond to whoever you want to; I won't be offended.


----------



## newbie (Jun 12, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Any non-capitalist voting for (neolib) parties of capital is, *by definition, voting against their own class interest.* Anyone doing so, whether 55+ or not, demonstrates very clearly the persuasive power of cultural hegemonic processes in our bourgeois, representative democracy.
> I note that whilst you claim I inhabit an ivory tower (  )  you're happy to post preposterous guff like this:-
> ​Please feel free to respond to whoever you want to; I won't be offended.



So you are saying that class interest can indeed be objectively and unambiguously defined? Where is this definition?  Does any working class person get a say in what's in their class interest or do you decide for everybody? 

You've retreated back into jargon, presumably because you can't quite bring yourself to accept that what you've put forward is nonsense.

as for your partial quote, the one where you missed off the bit where I said I was speculating and didn't highlight the bit that says "_ If I'm right".  _I've told you why I think they might have "_consistently endorsed neoliberalism_"; hows about you producing an argument that it's been imposed on them, against their will, that they've been unwilling _victims of capitalism_.  That should be easy, given how clear they must know their class interest is.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 12, 2016)

newbie said:


> So you are saying that class interest can indeed be objectively and unambiguously defined? Where is this definition?  Does any working class person get a say in what's in their class interest or do you decide for everybody?
> 
> You've retreated back into jargon, presumably because you can't quite bring yourself to accept that what you've put forward is nonsense.
> 
> as for your partial quote, the one where you missed off the bit where I said I was speculating and didn't highlight the bit that says "_ If I'm right".  _I've told you why I think they might have "_consistently endorsed neoliberalism_"; hows about you producing an argument that it's been imposed on them, against their will, that they've been unwilling _victims of capitalism_.  That should be easy, given how clear they must know their class interest is.


You're actually saying that people voting tory, labour or 'Leave'/'Remain' are consciously endorsing _neoliberalism?_
Really?
Lordy.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 12, 2016)

As a proud over 55 who thinks that the EU is an unelected unaccountable bosses club I will be voting leave.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 12, 2016)

newbie said:


> hows about you producing an argument that it's been imposed on them, against their will, *that they've been unwilling *_*victims of capitalism*_.  That should be easy, given how clear they must know their class interest is.


Giving me such a challenge suggests that you regard your fellow members of the class as _"willing *victims *of capitalism", _no_?_
In which case, why do you keep on about not accepting that people vote against their own class interest?

Do you not feel that your views are a little classist and in danger of amplifying the inter-generational negative solidarity so beloved of the neoliberal media?


----------



## newbie (Jun 12, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Giving me such a challenge suggests that you regard your fellow members of the class as _"willing *victims *of capitalism", _no_?_



what?

'victims' is your word, I've quoted it, parodied it, and explored it, not advocated it's usefulness.  Tbf there are 'victims' of capitalism, that's kind of the point, that there are winners and therefor losers. In most conversations that's just trite, something well understood by everyone.

Be clear, I asked you to present your own argument, not to put words in my mouth.  You're apparently completely unable to do so, presumably because you recognise how ridiculous your position is.



> In which case, why do you keep on about not accepting that people vote against their own class interest



again, what?

how many times do I have to ask you to explain your own position?  It's you that keeps ratting on about on about voting "_against their own class interest_" not me.  I suspect it's utter nonsense, but although I've asked repeatedly you won't tell me how this "_class interest_" is defined, nor who by.  You seem to think you have a handle on what it is, but you're not prepared to let me in on the secret, so how the hell would a peasant like me know whether they (or I) are voting against it or not?

How would they know, how would I know, you're the one with the knowledge.  



> Do you not feel that your views are a little classist and in danger of amplifying the inter-generational negative solidarity so beloved of the neoliberal media?



No.  and No.

Noting that there are winners and losers in society, and seeking to understand how society works by identifying those trends isn't "_amplifying the inter-generational negative solidarity_" (erk, don't they speak English in your ivory tower?).  It's looking around and discussing what's there to be seen.  This is clearly a concept that's new to you.


----------



## newbie (Jun 12, 2016)

brogdale said:


> You're actually saying that people voting tory, labour or 'Leave'/'Remain' are consciously endorsing neoliberalism?
> Really?
> Lordy.


you really haven't opened your eyes and looked around have you?

_neoliberalism_ is a word used regularly by people who read and contribute to political arguments, not so much by the majority of the population, though it's gaining wider circulation.  Is your point so narrow that it involves just the use of a word?  Probably not, that's too pathetic, so you must mean the concepts behind the term.

According to wiki "_Its advocates support extensive economic liberalization policies such as privatization, fiscal austerity, deregulation, free trade, and reductions in government spending in order to enhance the role of the private sector in the economy_"

Are you going to try and pretend people voting tory, labour or 'Leave'/'Remain' are *not* consciously endorsing that package of policies?  Good grief! Have you really never read an election manifesto, heard a mainstream politician speak, read a newspaper?

Of course that package is supported by people who vote.  It's also opposed by other voters, the ones who vote for the tiny minority parties, the sort that don't win elections.  Alternative policies are there for anyone who wants them, but the vast, vast majority of voters quite simply don't.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 12, 2016)

newbie said:


> you really haven't opened your eyes and looked around have you?
> 
> _neoliberalism_ is a word used regularly by people who read and contribute to political arguments, not so much by the majority of the population, though it's gaining wider circulation.  Is your point so narrow that it involves just the use of a word?  Probably not, that's too pathetic, so you must mean the concepts behind the term.
> 
> ...


So, working class people 'voting for neoliberalism' are voting in their own class interests?
Just listen to yourself!


----------



## newbie (Jun 12, 2016)

brogdale said:


> So, working class people 'voting for neoliberalism' are voting in their own class interests?
> Just listen to yourself!


Are they?  You're the one with the certainty about what is or isn't objectively in their class interests, and you're not sharing it.

Me, I'd say they're voting for reasons of their own.  What they believe is in their best economic interests. Maybe what they believe is in their class interest. And so on. Subjectively like. Not that what they think they're voting for or against matters, you know best.

What I would say is that your insistence that all 55+ working class voters have had neoliberal economics inflicted on them, that they have been entirely unwilling '_victims_', is complete cobblers. 

Basildon Man = innocent victim 

You wanna try developing a political outlook based on observation of reality, rather than trying to shoehorn reality into a theory you read in some tract.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 12, 2016)

newbie said:


> Are they?  You're the one with the certainty about what is or isn't objectively in their class interests, and you're not sharing it.
> 
> Me, I'd say they're voting for reasons of their own.  What they believe is in their best economic interests. Maybe what they believe is in their class interest. And so on. Subjectively like. Not that what they think they're voting for or against matters, you know best.
> 
> ...


We've all had neoliberal economics inflicted upon us, whatever our age. What's with all this ageism? 
Nobody was ever given the opportunity to vote for or against it.


----------



## newbie (Jun 12, 2016)

brogdale said:


> We've all had neoliberal economics inflicted upon us, whatever our age. What's with all this ageism?
> Nobody was ever given the opportunity to vote for or against it.


keep wriggling.  we both know the whole conversation started from a post of yours about _voters in the 55+ demographic.  _

Of course they have, don't be so silly.  I told you earlier, there have been small parties with entirely different visions throughout, but few vote for them.  You shouldn't need telling- you could have noticed all by yourself.  _
_


----------



## brogdale (Jun 12, 2016)

newbie said:


> keep wriggling.  we both know the whole conversation started from a post of yours about _voters in the 55+ demographic.  _
> 
> Of course they have, don't be so silly.  I told you earlier, there have been small parties with entirely different visions throughout, but few vote for them.  You shouldn't need telling- you could have noticed all by yourself.


OK, if you want to start over...that's fine.
What parts of my post do you disagree with?


brogdale said:


> I think the hegemonic misleading of the older working class is more nuanced than some would have it. Many Brexit voters in the 55+ demographic have experienced the benefits of capital's post-war/system competition concessions, and the hardships/deterioration of public services associated with the neoliberal turn. That such life experiences coincide with the existence of the EEC/EC/EU can easily be manipulated by those happy to conflate correlation with causation for ideological goals.


----------



## newbie (Jun 12, 2016)

this would be the same people who've dominated the voting for nulab and tories, yes?


----------



## brogdale (Jun 12, 2016)

newbie said:


> this would be the same people who've dominated the voting for nulab and tories, yes?


I asked what it was that you disagreed with.


----------



## newbie (Jun 13, 2016)

I've asked you a lot of questions and have yet to receive an answer.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 13, 2016)

newbie said:


> I've asked you a lot of questions and have yet to receive an answer.


I see.


----------



## newbie (Jun 13, 2016)

the disagreement started with this nonsense


brogdale said:


> Such a noise would presuppose that there had been no hegemonic mis-direction and that all those working class Brexiteers had purposely voted against their class interests?



if you're really keen on re-enactment then you could start by explaining exactly what this is supposed to mean.  I don't suppose you will though.  Or can.

I'm going to bed, good night


----------



## brogdale (Jun 13, 2016)

newbie said:


> the disagreement started with this nonsense
> 
> 
> if you're really keen on re-enactment then you could start by explaining exactly what this is supposed to mean.  I don't suppose you will though.  Or can.
> ...


You blame the agency of working class voters for creating neoliberalism & its consequences that is helping to stoke resentment towards the EU/Brexitism. I don't. Simple really.


----------



## newbie (Jun 13, 2016)

brogdale said:


> You blame the agency of working class voters for creating neoliberalism & its consequences that is helping to stoke resentment towards the EU/Brexitism. I don't. Simple really.



*creating* neoliberalism: come on.  you know full well I didn't say anything so ludicrous, so why pretend I did?  That's not honest debate.

I certainly recognise that some 55+ working class voters have helped elect the governments that have encouraged neoliberal economics to flourish since 1979.  You don't. 

So, if they didn't, who did?

That's a simple question, I'd appreciate a straight answer.


----------



## belboid (Jun 13, 2016)

Glad your moral superiority is holding up, broggy. 

That's the problem with these latter day anarchists, they think what they've only just noticed is a brilliant insight when it's actually just bog standard confused liberalism


----------



## brogdale (Jun 13, 2016)

belboid said:


> Glad your moral superiority is holding up, broggy.
> 
> That's the problem with these latter day anarchists, they think what they've only just noticed is a brilliant insight when it's actually just bog standard confused liberalism


Ouch!
You seem disappointed that not everyone is drawn to your remainarian position.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 13, 2016)

newbie said:


> *creating* neoliberalism: come on.  you know full well I didn't say anything so ludicrous, so why pretend I did?  That's not honest debate.
> 
> I certainly recognise that some 55+ working class voters have helped elect the governments that have encouraged neoliberal economics to flourish since 1979.  You don't.
> 
> ...


OK.
Well, on Oct 10th 1974, some 11,457,079 people voted for what many regard as an administration that became the first neoliberal government of the UK. I'd imagine that many of them were working class, and that few if any could have foreseen what would happen to the administration that they elected.


----------



## Wilf (Jun 13, 2016)

belboid said:


> so vote remain then you dithering twat.  Unless you just want to maintain your air of moral superiority, of course, *which is all an abstention is*


 That's bollocks.   The remain campaign has been astonishingly dishonest and, more importantly, there are few positives in staying with EU neo-liberalism.  It's not good, even as a least bad option - although, I'd _guess_, 10 years down the line workers rights will be worse if we leave. However what will really determine worker's rights - and all the other issues - is what actually happens in terms of class struggle.  The leave campaign is being driven by the worst of the political class and is explicitly xenophobic - but then support for leave is also driven by the way people feel fucked over by politicians and neo-liberalism.  It's the nearest thing there is to an anti-system vote - a poor choice in a vote where there are no good choices available.  If I vote it would be to leave, but will probably abstain. However, characterising that as moral superiority is not only a cheap shot, it's also wrong.


----------



## belboid (Jun 13, 2016)

Maybe not inevitably so, it just is in summat like 99% of cases


----------



## belboid (Jun 13, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Ouch!
> You seem disappointed that not everyone is drawn to your remainarian position.


Silly boy. I'm voting leave


----------



## newbie (Jun 13, 2016)

brogdale said:


> OK.
> Well, on Oct 10th 1974, some 11,457,079 people voted for what many regard as an administration that became the first neoliberal government of the UK. I'd imagine that many of them were working class, and that few if any could have foreseen what would happen to the administration that they elected.



yes.  very good.  wriggle, evade, wriggle.

13 year olds did not vote in 1974.  Concentrate: over 55s, first time GE voters in 1979.

why not answer a straight question straight??



D'you know what question has been forming in my mind?  It would certainly account for the extraordinary levels of denial and evasion. You won't answer it straight and honest I'm sure, but I'll ask it anyway.  

Did you vote Tory in 1979?  In 1983?  since?


----------



## brogdale (Jun 13, 2016)

belboid said:


> Silly boy. I'm voting leave


My mistake, apologies.
It's just that when, the other day, you were encouraging me to drop my decision and vote remain, I (wrongly) assumed that's the outcome that you favoured.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 13, 2016)

newbie said:


> yes.  very good.  wriggle, evade, wriggle.
> 
> 13 year olds did not vote in 1974.  Concentrate: over 55s, first time GE voters in 1979.
> 
> ...


If you just slow down and have a think about it...that was an answer to your question; neoliberalism is not something that has emerged from voting or representative democracy.
btw, in order to have voted in the 1975 EEC referendum, you'd have to be 59 years (& 18 days) and over...so, perhaps 59 would represent a better benchmark?*

And no, don't worry, I've never voted for the vermin!

* I posted about it here...and you liked it then!


----------



## brogdale (Jun 13, 2016)

belboid said:


> Maybe not inevitably so, it just is in summat like 99% of cases


So, 99% of the 81 Urban abstainers are making that decision merely on the basis of maintaining 'moral superiority'?


----------



## two sheds (Jun 13, 2016)

I'm confused as to why some seem to feel that abstaining is absolutely the wrong thing to do in the referendum but absolutely the right thing to do in a general election.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 13, 2016)

two sheds said:


> I'm confused as to why some seem to feel that abstaining is absolutely the wrong thing to do in the referendum but absolutely the right thing to do in a general election.


There' a great deal of confusion on this thread.


----------



## two sheds (Jun 13, 2016)

I threw my voting slip in the waste bin a couple of weeks ago but dug it out the other night, I still don't know how to vote, though.

I don't want to vote to remain because I feel the EU will see that as Business as Usual for TTIP and anti-democratic EU decisions and the rest.

I don't want to vote for exit since Cameron says he's not going to go he'll see that as another reason to axe the NHS and benefits and pensions after all his pronouncements of financial disaster with a triumphant "well I told you so".

Or we'll have someone like Gove or Johnson who decide they have a mandate to go immigrant bashing and wage cutting and environmental regulation cutting.

So it turns out I'm a liberal urban cunt again  .


----------



## stethoscope (Jun 13, 2016)

two sheds said:


> I threw my voting slip in the waste bin a couple of weeks ago but dug it out the other night, I still don't know how to vote, though.



Abstain seems a reasonable position to me. I've veered between that and leave a few times.


----------



## newbie (Jun 13, 2016)

brogdale said:


> If you just slow down and have a think about it...that was an answer to your question; neoliberalism is not something that has emerged from voting or representative democracy.
> btw, in order to have voted in the 1975 EEC referendum, you'd have to be 59 years (& 18 days) and over...so, perhaps 59 would represent a better benchmark?
> 
> And no, don't worry, I've never voted for the vermin!


ok I'll take your word for it.

I'm sure there's some reason why you've suddenly decided to shift the goalposts, no doubt you'll spring your dastardly trap at some point.

as for '_neoliberalism is not something that has emerged from voting or representative democracy_'.  What has it emerged from then?  

Capital does what it does. Politicians are encouraged to create the opportunities for it to increase profitability.  Neither can really operate in isolation from the other. 

But there's more than that: within democratic countries politicians are elected and they pass the laws to eg cut taxes, denationalise, slash benefits, liberalise trade and manipulate interest rates and unemployment (& fwiw to remove exchange controls, the first act of the 1979 government).  So although your word '_emerged_' isn't quite right, neoliberal economics could not and would not have flourished in the quite the same way if there had not been sustained political will to nurture it.

And where does political will come from: well from the people expressed through the vote of course.  Aided and abetted by expression through the rest of civil society, acting in many and varied ways to endorse, support and encourage, or to oppose, frustrate and obstruct.

To pretend that the electorate, the adult population of the country- a very substantial portion of which is working class, and a disproportionate number of which are baby boomers- has no role in how society develops is nonsensical. Completely barking.

Cut to the chase: what is your purpose in trying to prove that w/c baby boomers are innocent victims?


----------



## belboid (Jun 13, 2016)

brogdale said:


> My mistake, apologies.
> It's just that when, the other day, you were encouraging me to drop my decision and vote remain, I (wrongly) assumed that's the outcome that you favoured.


As I said earlier, I think abstention is the worst position to take.


----------



## belboid (Jun 13, 2016)

brogdale said:


> So, 99% of the 81 Urban abstainers are making that decision merely on the basis of maintaining 'moral superiority'?


There'll be a lot of dithering liberals too. This is urban, after all


----------



## brogdale (Jun 13, 2016)

newbie said:


> ok I'll take your word for it.
> 
> I'm sure there's some reason why you've suddenly decided to shift the goalposts, no doubt you'll spring your dastardly trap at some point.
> 
> ...


Your faith in representative democracy is touching.
Elected representatives do what their creditors/paymasters permit them to do. The transition from tax state to debt state, and latterly consolidator, debt state, ensures that (as you say) financialised capital does what it does...and ensures that governments do what it wants. That's the very essence of neoliberalism and the post-democratic state/super-state.
What goalposts?


----------



## brogdale (Jun 13, 2016)

belboid said:


> There'll be a lot of dithering liberals too. This is urban, after all


So, no judgmentalism here, then?


----------



## brogdale (Jun 13, 2016)

belboid said:


> As I said earlier, I think abstention is the worst position to take.


"Worst" by which metric?


----------



## two sheds (Jun 13, 2016)

belboid said:


> As I said earlier, I think abstention is the worst position to take.



Why? And do you feel the same way about general election voting?


----------



## newbie (Jun 13, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Your faith in representative democracy is touching.
> Elected representatives do what their creditors/paymasters permit them to do.



They certainly operate within bounds set by capital. They also operate within bounds set by the adult population of the country.  The fact that capital wants to _reform_ or _modernise_ does not necessarily mean that politicians can create the legislative framework to allow them to do it.  The political will of the adults in the country may deny them that option.

As any adult will have noticed.  How on earth have you failed to see it?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jun 13, 2016)

belboid said:


> There'll be a lot of dithering liberals too. This is urban, after all


tbh I'm not sure I trust the opinion of anyone who isn't dithering over this at least a bit.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 13, 2016)

newbie said:


> *The political will of the adults in the country may deny them that option.*


Tell that to the Greek working class.


----------



## newbie (Jun 13, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Tell that to the Greek working class.


we're not talking about Greece, so wriggling to change the subject just makes you look daft. 

I repeat "*The political will of the adults in the country may deny them that option."  *That is so self-evidently true I can't fathom why you're intent on denying it.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 13, 2016)

newbie said:


> we're not talking about Greece, so wriggling to change the subject just makes you look daft.
> 
> I repeat "*The political will of the adults in the country may deny them that option."  *That is so self-evidently true I can't fathom why you're intent on denying it.


Next you'll be telling me that if the UK electorate voted in a Corbyn government they'd be able to establish socialism.


----------



## newbie (Jun 13, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Next you'll be telling me that if the UK electorate voted in a Corbyn government they'd be able to establish socialism.


wriggle, wriggle, wriggle, wriggle, change the subject and then wriggle some more

Yes, you _late onset_ read a tract that says the working class is oppressed victims, and you're going to keep repeating that till the cows come home, ignoring everything that goes on around you.  You deny your own possibilities as an agent of change and you deny everyone elses. _There's nothing we can do about anything, it all just happens to us_.  Stop infantalising people.  

Just admit you've been spouting nonsense, open your eyes and look at how the country really works, and try and develop some grown up politics from that.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 13, 2016)

newbie said:


> No.
> 
> You're welcome to carry on like that if you wish but IME when people start lobbing stuff like "hegemonic mis-direction" into general conversation it's often because they've hopelessly misjudged their audience or because they're covering up that they've no coherent point to put across.  There are other possibilities but I'm trying to give the benefit of the doubt.



You *could* use a bit of common-sense and a dictionary to work out what "hegemonic mis-direction" means/meant. "Hegemonic" means "dominant", and is usually referring to an ideology or a political narrative, so "hegemonic mis-direction" in the context of the original use can be taken to mean "the mis-leading narrative put about by the dominant political ideologies".

In other words, not academese, not politico-speak, just a short way of presenting a longer idea.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 13, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> tbh I'm not sure I trust the opinion of anyone who isn't dithering over this at least a bit.


made my decision a while ago. Long before the campaigns started and in the knowledge of who would be loudly making the exit case on tele and in what terms.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 13, 2016)

newbie said:


> so on the one hand they've experienced "_the hardships/deterioration of public services associated with the neoliberal turn_" and on the other they're the ones who were instrumental in voting for it.
> 
> That's really all I'm saying, that the noise might be chickens coming home to roost.



Except that for most of us - i.e. those of us who are not members of the political class - the vote we had was "damned if we do, damned if we don't", dressed up in a load of pseudo-patriotic shit, and worded to draw attention away from that fact.
Have a read of the 1974 referendum question, then check out the media coverage. Then as now, the media barely address the fact that the worker has no choice except a choice between shit sandwich number one, and shit sandwich number two.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 13, 2016)

chilango said:


> I think populist nationalism will get a boost from either result frankly.



Especially given the way that the media are handling the whole referendum issue. It's almost as if the owners of the media would prefer a separatist, populist nationalism amenable to their further manipulations, to emerge....


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 13, 2016)

Kaka Tim said:


> Its more a belief that the aggro in france is in some ways a direct consequence of the appeal to xenophobic nationalism being made by the brexiters - and for me this provided a stark illistration of what a brexit victory would represent.
> 
> I dont think a "remain" vote is any sort of answer - that genie is already out of the bottle -  but a brexit victory will make it much harder to actually deal with the  upsurge in this sort of toxic nationalism.
> 
> The argument about the relative demerits of exit or stay is redundant - it been reduced to "the sky will fall in!" versus "engerland engerland engerland!"



The questions to ask, then, are *why* it's been reduced to that, and *who* has done the reducing.


----------



## Wilf (Jun 13, 2016)

two sheds said:


> Why? And do you feel the same way about general election voting?


I see my abstention as the moral heir to the General Election spunking cock strategy.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jun 13, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> The questions to ask, then, are *why* it's been reduced to that, and *who* has done the reducing.


Well, only inasmuch as this might tell you something about the consequences of leaving the EU. The 'who' and the 'why' go together - the one is obvious once you know the other. This is a 'debate' between two factions of the Tory party, essentially, and both factions will shout a load of old tosh in the debate because, well, that's what the Tories do. It's a power struggle within a particular section of the elite - one reason why abstention is not an unprincipled or cop-out position in this case.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 13, 2016)

newbie said:


> Cut to the chase: what is your purpose in trying to prove that w/c baby boomers are innocent victims?



He hasn't tried to do anything of the kind. He's merely said that there are layers within layers of the political narratives, and that while people *democratically and freely* exercise their right to vote, the information on the options, the ramifications of the options, and the publicly-available information about the options is such that unless you actively research the issues, you're acting from a relatively-ignorant position - just as the political class like it.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 13, 2016)

i say we apply that sly rule they are trying to do with the Union bill. Or anti-Union bill. We count all abstentions as exit votes.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 13, 2016)

belboid said:


> There'll be a lot of dithering liberals too. This is urban, after all



it's giving you a boner, this repetition of "liberals", isn't it?


----------



## two sheds (Jun 13, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> i say we apply that sly rule they are trying to do with the Union bill. Or anti-Union bill. We count all abstentions as exit votes.



Yep that sounds good to me.


----------



## J Ed (Jun 13, 2016)

Very telling that the Remain camp have now focused all their efforts on the fear of what a Brexit might look like under a Tory gov, there are very few good arguments for the EU or us staying in it. Much easier to concentrate on how disgusting the Tories are.


----------



## belboid (Jun 13, 2016)

brogdale said:


> So, no judgmentalism here, then?


Plenty


brogdale said:


> "Worst" by which metric?


Any. Or mine. 


littlebabyjesus said:


> tbh I'm not sure I trust the opinion of anyone who isn't dithering over this at least a bit.


Oh that's absolutely reasonable. As long as they finally make their mind up. 


two sheds said:


> Why? And do you feel the same way about general election voting?


GEs are different, so depends.


----------



## belboid (Jun 13, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> it's giving you a boner, this repetition of "liberals", isn't it?


Naah, you're not doing I'm afraid


----------



## two sheds (Jun 13, 2016)

Why is abstaining worse than (spit, liberal fucks!) voting remain?


----------



## brogdale (Jun 13, 2016)

newbie said:


> wriggle, wriggle, wriggle, wriggle, change the subject and then wriggle some more
> 
> Yes, you _late onset_ read a tract that says the working class is oppressed victims, and you're going to keep repeating that till the cows come home, ignoring everything that goes on around you.  You deny your own possibilities as an agent of change and you deny everyone elses. _There's nothing we can do about anything, it all just happens to us_.  Stop infantalising people.
> 
> Just admit you've been spouting nonsense, open your eyes and look at how the country really works, and try and develop some grown up politics from that.


You clearly enjoy an internet debate; why pretend that you're finding it tiresome or irritating.

I'm just not sure that you're understanding what I'm getting at if you really believe that I'm _ignoring everything that goes on around _me.
It might just be that I'm seeing things differently to you, and remember that identifying a process or problem does not equate with defeatism.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 13, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Well, only inasmuch as this might tell you something about the consequences of leaving the EU. The 'who' and the 'why' go together - the one is obvious once you know the other. This is a 'debate' between two factions of the Tory party, essentially, and both factions will shout a load of old tosh in the debate because, well, that's what the Tories do. It's a power struggle within a particular section of the elite - one reason why abstention is not an unprincipled or cop-out position in this case.



My point isn't that the debate is between two wings of neoliberalist powermongers, it's about who manipulates the narrative, and why. I don't mean that as a general question, I mean it as a specific interrogation of what's happening now. "Who benefits?" isn't a question about which branch of a failed ideology will stand to gain the most - long-term, capitalism wins - it's a question about why media magnates, politicians etc have taken the position that they do.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 13, 2016)

belboid said:


> Plenty
> 
> Any. Or mine.
> 
> ...


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 13, 2016)

J Ed said:


> Very telling that the Remain camp have now focused all their efforts on the fear of what a Brexit might look like under a Tory gov, there are very few good arguments for the EU or us staying in it. Much easier to concentrate on how disgusting the Tories are.


knew it was always going to be a 'but the tories' argument. It doesn't work when labour do it at GE's either. Well not with me. Plenty of weary noseholders though


----------



## Obediah Marsh (Jun 13, 2016)

I voted abstain a while back but support remain now. The reason for the change is the rise of Trump in the U.S. (I used to think he was a joke) This is a bad time to be quarrelling with our neighbours. We're going to need all the friends we can get in Europe if a nationalist/protectionist administration takes power in the U.S.


----------



## two sheds (Jun 13, 2016)

J Ed said:


> Very telling that the Remain camp have now focused all their efforts on the fear of what a Brexit might look like under a Tory gov, there are very few good arguments for the EU or us staying in it. Much easier to concentrate on how disgusting the Tories are.



Indeed. If the EU's been watering down employment rights and environmental safeguards (and I don't know, but take peoples' word for it), then this is the only real reason I can think of to remain or abstain.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 13, 2016)

Obediah Marsh said:


> I voted abstain a while back but support remain now. The reason for the change is the rise of Trump in the U.S. (I used to think he was a joke) This is a bad time to be quarrelling with our neighbours. We're going to need all the friends we can get in Europe if a nationalist/protectionist administration takes power in the U.S.



What if those neighbours start electing people even further to the right that Trump?


----------



## J Ed (Jun 13, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> What if those neighbours start electing people even further to the right that Trump?



Ignores the fact that this is already happening. Viktor Orbán is well to the right of Trump.


----------



## gosub (Jun 13, 2016)

two sheds said:


> Indeed. If the EU's been watering down employment rights and environmental safeguards (and I don't know, but take peoples' word for it), then this is the only real reason I can think of to remain or abstain.



From todays Telegraph
Nobody has ever been held to account for the design faults and hubris of the euro, or for the monetary and fiscal contraction that turned recession into depression, and led to levels of youth unemployment across a large arc of Europe that nobody would have thought possible or tolerable in a modern civilized society. The only people ever blamed are the victims.

There has been no truth and reconciliation commission for the greatest economic crime of modern times. We do not know who exactly was responsible for anything because power was exercised through a shadowy interplay of elites in Berlin, Frankfurt, Brussels, and Paris, and still is. Everything is deniable. All slips through the crack of oversight.

Nor have those in charge learned the lessons of EMU failure. The burden of adjustment still falls on South, without offsetting expansion in the North. It is a formula for deflation and hysteresis. That way lies yet another Lost Decade.

*Has there ever been a proper airing of how the elected leaders of Greece and Italy were forced out of power and replaced by EU technocrats, perhaps not by coups d'etat in a strict legal sense but certainly by skulduggery?

On what authority did the European Central Bank write secret letters to the leaders of Spain and Italy in 2011 ordering detailed changes to labour and social law, and fiscal policy, holding a gun to their head on bond purchases?

What is so striking about these episodes is not that EU officials took such drastic decisions in the white heat of crisis, but that it was allowed to pass so easily. The EU's missionary press corps turned a blind eye. The European Parliament closed ranks, the reflex of a nomenklatura.*

While you could say that the euro is nothing to do with us, it obviously goes to the character of the EU: how it exercises power, and how far it will go in extremis.


----------



## 2hats (Jun 13, 2016)

2hats said:


>


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 13, 2016)

2hats said:


>


we have already seen an atrocity on the scale of orlando, eleven years ago, caused in large measure by the very people now using the recent slaughter for their own ends


----------



## kebabking (Jun 13, 2016)

J Ed said:


> Ignores the fact that this is already happening. Viktor Orbán is well to the right of Trump.



which ignores two salient points - firstly that when France and Germany, by far the dominant powers within the EU project, elect governments to the right of Trump, then we'll worry. Hungary? not so much.

secondly it ignores the provenance of bastards rule - Trump looks like being an extremely unfriendly bastard. should we find ourselves outside of the EU with all its protection against others that its economic power brings, we may have a problem.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 13, 2016)

trump isn't going to win. I'll bet you fifty dollars.


we're staring at the void of president killary which is such a hobsons for joe and jane US voter its unreal


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jun 13, 2016)

2hats said:


>


I think that's fake tbh. Apart from it just being unbelievable as something a professional campaign would put out, I couldn't find any use of it on their official channels even if they had been so dumb.


----------



## two sheds (Jun 13, 2016)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I think that's fake tbh. I couldn't find any use of it on their official channels.



The Leave camp is already trying to use the Orlando massacre to further its cause

not saying you're wrong though 

Eta says on their Twitter account


----------



## 2hats (Jun 13, 2016)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I think that's fake tbh.


It's hard to know which side is trying to out-stupid the other in this contest...


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jun 13, 2016)

two sheds said:


> The Leave camp is already trying to use the Orlando massacre to further its cause
> 
> not saying you're wrong though
> 
> Eta says on their Twitter account


I've seen it a lot on Twitter just now but the thing is, usually in these situations someone screenshots the tweet to preserve it in case it's deleted, and also links to the tweet itself (which would turn up as "unavailable" if deleted) whereas with this I've only seen the image itself, which anyone could have made.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 13, 2016)

all the leave campaign(s) stuff is dogwhistle. The 'smell of my own farts is awesome' liberal ones calling everyone thick and racist are also pretty shite


----------



## gosub (Jun 13, 2016)

2hats said:


> It's hard to know which side is trying to out-stupid the other in this contest...



Now Gordon Brown has resurfaced to save the world (again) I await the reprise of Gillian Duffy's media career.

In the meantime....an intermisson 




while we await "the end of Western Political civilisation"


10 days to endure.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 13, 2016)

gosub said:


> Now Gordon Brown has resurfaced to save the world (again) I await the reprise of Gillian Duffy's media career.
> 
> In the meantime....an intermisson
> 
> ...



I see your video and raise you GrassrootsGo polished and not at at all shit campaign song


----------



## gosub (Jun 13, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> I see your video and raise you GrassrootsGo polished and not at at all shit campaign song



mine is the same womans difficult second attempt


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 13, 2016)

gosub said:


> Now Gordon Brown has resurfaced to save the world (again) I await the reprise of Gillian Duffy's media career.
> 
> In the meantime....an intermisson
> 
> ...





> "As a historian I fear that Brexit could be the beginning of the destruction of not only the EU but also of western political civilization in its entirety."



'speaking as a parent' lol. We've all read Shirers 'Rise and Fall' mate


----------



## gosub (Jun 13, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> 'speaking as a parent' lol. We've all read Shirers 'Rise and Fall' mate



only 'political' civilisation mind- might be down to their last tub of bisto.


----------



## 2hats (Jun 13, 2016)

gosub said:


> Now Gordon Brown has resurfaced to save the world (again) I await the reprise of Gillian Duffy's media career.



Keep up - they tried to reboot her a couple of weeks ago - "I don't want to be a European".


----------



## Wookey (Jun 13, 2016)

gosub said:


> Now Gordon Brown has resurfaced to save the world (again) I await the reprise of Gillian Duffy's media career.



The terrible bigot's media career started weeks ago: Gillian Duffy: 'I don't want to be a European' - BBC News


----------



## free spirit (Jun 13, 2016)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I've seen it a lot on Twitter just now but the thing is, usually in these situations someone screenshots the tweet to preserve it in case it's deleted, and also links to the tweet itself (which would turn up as "unavailable" if deleted) whereas with this I've only seen the image itself, which anyone could have made.


like this?


----------



## kebabking (Jun 13, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> trump isn't going to win. I'll bet you fifty dollars.
> 
> 
> we're staring at the void of president killary which is such a hobsons for joe and jane US voter its unreal



i'll take that bet.

i don't _think_ he'll win either, i think the betting has got to be on Clinton - however, its close enough that enough things that are possible to go wrong are on her pathway that Trump _might_ squeeze it.

while i think the likelyhood is significantly smaller than that a Clinton win, the potential hugely negative _consequences_ of it are such that its worth (for me..) taking almost any action that might mitigate those effects. being in a political/economic bloc who'se worth is only marginally smaller than that of the United States, rather than being in a bloc of one, that will have at least one part of it trying to walk away, who'se total output is equivelant to just one of the US's 50 states , is a very large mitigating factor.

lets make the bet much more interesting, much more real and important. instead of $50, how about your Dog. if Trump wins, i'll have your dog - do you feel as confident about him losing now?


----------



## discokermit (Jun 13, 2016)

kebabking said:


> lets make the bet much more interesting, much more real and important. instead of $50, how about your Dog. if Trump wins, i'll have your dog - do you feel as confident about him losing now?


 fucking cruella.


----------



## Wilf (Jun 13, 2016)

I'm tempted to put the hamster and two meerkats on remain.


----------



## gosub (Jun 13, 2016)

kebabking said:


> lets make the bet much more interesting, much more real and important. instead of $50, how about your Dog. if Trump wins, i'll have your dog - do you feel as confident about him losing now?




Now I'm worried about your posting name.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 13, 2016)

kebabking said:


> s, i'll have your dog - do you feel as confident about him losing now?


yes, trump needs more than who he's speaking to. He needs those he's cunted off badly as well, and that vote is gone/wasn't rebuplican anyway/staying home. Its not a deal on the dog though. You'd give him back soon enough though, nightmares he can be


----------



## gosub (Jun 13, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> yes, trump needs more than who he's speaking to. He needs those he's cunted off badly as well, and that vote is gone/wasn't rebuplican anyway/staying home. Its not a deal on the dog though. You'd give him back soon enough though, nightmares he can be


Actually if the normally republican states hate Clinton more..+the rust belt,	 he wins.  I have no dog.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 13, 2016)

gosub said:


> Actually if the normally republican states hate Clinton more..+the rust belt,	 he wins.  I have no dog.


so you quite literally have no dog in this race lol


----------



## gosub (Jun 13, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> so you quite literally have no dog in this race lol



If Vermin Supreme wins I might ask for a pony.


----------



## magneze (Jun 13, 2016)

two sheds said:


> I threw my voting slip in the waste bin a couple of weeks ago but dug it out the other night, I still don't know how to vote, though.
> 
> I don't want to vote to remain because I feel the EU will see that as Business as Usual for TTIP and anti-democratic EU decisions and the rest.
> 
> ...


I am also thinking like this. However, there's only one question on the ballot. Remain changes nothing. Leave is just that. There is no mandate for immigrant bashing or a bonfire of workers rights or any other made up ukip bullshit.


----------



## Libertad (Jun 13, 2016)

gosub said:


> If Vermin Supreme wins I might ask for a pony.



I've got a monkey on my back.


----------



## 1%er (Jun 13, 2016)

brogdale said:


> So, 99% of the 81 Urban abstainers are making that decision merely on the basis of maintaining 'moral superiority'?


I think in some cases it is because they don't have a vote


----------



## brogdale (Jun 13, 2016)

1%er said:


> I think in some cases it is because they don't have a vote


Taking _moral superiority _to new levels!


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 13, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Taking _moral superiority _to new levels!


if you won't choose either way will you at least be supporting the cock and balls option?


----------



## brogdale (Jun 13, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> if you won't choose either way will you at least be supporting the cock and balls option?


Oh yeah, the only sure way to make sure they don't lump you into 'apathetic'.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 13, 2016)

Oh noes, how could Dave have allowed us a vote when this could happen...

Brexit could threaten western political civilization, says EU's Tusk


----------



## coley (Jun 13, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Oh noes, how could Dave have allowed us a vote when this could happen...
> 
> Brexit could threaten western political civilization, says EU's Tusk


And even worse, house prices could fall, says Osbourne.
@privaye eye.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 13, 2016)

Boris campaigning for out, Osbourne campaigning for in...We are all damned. But we knew that already.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Jun 13, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> if you won't choose either way will you at least be supporting the cock and balls option?


 
are there any euro regulations about acceptable size and curvature, like what (we are told) there is with bananas?


----------



## brogdale (Jun 13, 2016)

Puddy_Tat said:


> are there any euro regulations about acceptable size and curvature, like what (we are told) there is with bananas?


No more than 3 in a bunch!


----------



## youngian (Jun 14, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Oh noes, how could Dave have allowed us a vote when this could happen...
> 
> Brexit could threaten western political civilization, says EU's Tusk



Sounds like absurd hyperbole doesn't it. But Tusk as a Pole and a historian has an acute sense of how history can bite you on the arse as the threads that bind Europe together unravel. Apathy towards Remain among Labour voters in northern industrial heartlands left behind by globalisation are the ones who could swing this referendum to leave and start a chain reaction of populism across Europe. At least the Front National are a dirigiste party but what a shame for those in Northern England who are voting for politicians in this referendum to vent their frustration are like Farage and Gove who believe in an even harsher version of global neo-liberalism. But hey look over there; blame the foreigners


----------



## danny la rouge (Jun 14, 2016)

Libertad said:


> I've got a monkey on my back.


Loading tweet...


----------



## belboid (Jun 14, 2016)

two sheds said:


> Why is abstaining worse than (spit, liberal fucks!) voting remain?


 Cos at least the fuckers have thought about it and made a decision, rather than pretending that their decision (not to make a decision) is anything other than a useless waste.

It is a close call between the two choices, in reality. Whilst at a base level, the EU should obviously be rejected - as an enforcer of neoliberalism, and old fashioned plain free trade before '92, as  an undemocratic monolith that cannot be reformed, as an emerging imperialist bloc, as an entity that works to ensure the continued impoverishment and underdevelopment of the third world - there's all that on the one side. And then, there's the fact that even if we vote to reject all that, we will still wake up in a state which is only different in that it is a fading imperialist bloc, rather than an emerging one.  And the EU will offer some _short-term_ protections against the worst of the tories, and at least raises the notion of internationalism and free movement of labour.

Those of a dithering bent (whether liberal or ultra left variety), might then try and say that' he, that means you should abstain then' - but they ignore the fact that, formally, the vote is not about endorsing the British state, or not, but about remaining in the EU. And as socialist we dont want to remain in 'the EU', so fuck that. vote out. Whichever way the result goes, it will go one way or the other, there can't be a hung referendum result, so it will have an effect. Maybe a remainer beleives it will have only a minimal effect, either now or in the long term, but that is still an effect, and we should vote in whichever way helps develop working class struggle, even if only a tiny bit. And, while you mkight say these same arguments could be made for voting in a GE (and to some extent they CAN), there is a fundamental difference in that there you _are_ voting to endorse a specific party, not just to reject the other(s)


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Jun 15, 2016)

free spirit said:


> like this?



This is from Aaron Banks' team of shit stirrers. Their tactic is design the poster, tweet it, dump it then deny all knowledge but by that time it's gone viral and been picked up by the papers.  Here's the lackey who designed it and other equally bad leave propaganda if anyone's interested.


----------



## CNT36 (Jun 15, 2016)

Doctor Carrot said:


> This is from Aaron Banks' team of shit stirrers. Their tactic is design the poster, tweet it, dump it then deny all knowledge but by that time it's gone viral and been picked up by the papers.  Here's the lackey who designed it and other equally bad leave propaganda if anyone's interested.


I assumed it was just a knobhead with photoshop not a graphic/web/freelance designer.


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Jun 15, 2016)

CNT36 said:


> I assumed it was just a knobhead with photoshop not a graphic/web/freelance designer.


It is just a knobhead with Photoshop but they happen to be paid handsomely for producing such toss.


----------



## belboid (Jun 15, 2016)

Everyone (on this thraead anyway) will surely go Vote Leave if this is true - Sinn Féin calls for vote on Irish reunification if UK backs Brexit


----------



## bi0boy (Jun 15, 2016)

I am still vacillating between "it won't make much difference to anyone's lives" and "it will instigate/cement the failure of western society for the next century"


----------



## brogdale (Jun 15, 2016)

bi0boy said:


> I am still vacillating between "it won't make much difference to anyone's lives" and "it will instigate/cement the failure of western society for the next century"


R or L?


----------



## bi0boy (Jun 15, 2016)

brogdale said:


> R or L?



Both!


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jun 15, 2016)

brogdale said:


> R or L?



= J?


----------



## bi0boy (Jun 15, 2016)

Just been swayed again by this article in the Telegraph, one of the best brexit arguments I've read in a newspaper.


----------



## Cid (Jun 15, 2016)

belboid said:


> Everyone (on this thraead anyway) will surely go Vote Leave if this is true - Sinn Féin calls for vote on Irish reunification if UK backs Brexit



I though the outcome of any reunification vote is likely to be for union? Er... I mean unionist union. In the unlikely event of it actually happening. Also DUP is pro-leave.


----------



## belboid (Jun 15, 2016)

Cid said:


> I though the outcome of any reunification vote is likely to be for union? Er... I mean unionist union. In the unlikely event of it actually happening. Also DUP is pro-leave.


 maybe - but oh what fun!


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Jun 15, 2016)

belboid said:


> maybe - but oh what fun!



It would be a sectarian nightmare if there actually is a "border poll". The Unionists would win by a mile - by a much larger majority than Protestants have over Catholics - but the campaign would be a festival of bigotry and local intimidation.


----------



## two sheds (Jun 15, 2016)

belboid said:


> Cos at least the fuckers have thought about it and made a decision, rather than pretending that their decision (not to make a decision) is anything other than a useless waste.
> 
> It is a close call between the two choices, in reality. Whilst at a base level, the EU should obviously be rejected - as an enforcer of neoliberalism, and old fashioned plain free trade before '92, as  an undemocratic monolith that cannot be reformed, as an emerging imperialist bloc, as an entity that works to ensure the continued impoverishment and underdevelopment of the third world - there's all that on the one side. And then, there's the fact that even if we vote to reject all that, we will still wake up in a state which is only different in that it is a fading imperialist bloc, rather than an emerging one.  And the EU will offer some _short-term_ protections against the worst of the tories, and at least raises the notion of internationalism and free movement of labour.
> 
> Those of a dithering bent (whether liberal or ultra left variety), might then try and say that' he, that means you should abstain then' - but they ignore the fact that, formally, the vote is not about endorsing the British state, or not, but about remaining in the EU. And as socialist we dont want to remain in 'the EU', so fuck that. vote out. Whichever way the result goes, it will go one way or the other, there can't be a hung referendum result, so it will have an effect. Maybe a remainer beleives it will have only a minimal effect, either now or in the long term, but that is still an effect, and we should vote in whichever way helps develop working class struggle, even if only a tiny bit. And, while you mkight say these same arguments could be made for voting in a GE (and to some extent they CAN), there is a fundamental difference in that there you _are_ voting to endorse a specific party, not just to reject the other(s)



Load of liberal crap. So it’s a “close call” between Remain/Leave but not voting is a pretense and worse than useless, while the result of abstaining in the GE was to help a government into power that has made the greatest assault on poor people since Thatcher. But that’s ok because they were “voting to endorse a specific party”? Meaningless distinction.

If you’d had a similar go at people for voting spunking cock at the election I’d respect what you were saying but the above is just waffle.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 15, 2016)

two sheds said:


> Load of liberal crap. So it’s a “close call” between Remain/Leave but not voting is a pretense and worse than useless, while the result of abstaining in the GE was to help a government into power that has made the greatest assault on poor people since Thatcher. But that’s ok because they were “voting to endorse a specific party”? Meaningless distinction.
> 
> If you’d had a similar go at people for voting spunking cock at the election I’d respect what you were saying but the above is just waffle.




The two are different. With the GE your vote counted in your constituency only, so mine would count for nothing in Southwest Surrey, so I decided not to add to Hunt's mandate and abstain. In the referendum every vote carries equal weight, if you don't care either way, don't vote, not big deal.


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## two sheds (Jun 15, 2016)

Fair play but I care both ways. I'm half way between exit and spoiling ballot at the moment. The main reason I don't want to vote exit is what I think is going to happen after the referendum. 

Cameron has said that he’s staying on. If that happens he’ll use an Exit votes as an excuse to slash NHS spending even more, cut benefits and push austerity on the poor even further. If he goes we’ll have an even further right wing replacement and they'll no doubt do the same. 

If I thought for a moment it would mean an election that the tories might lose I'd vote exit.


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## Pickman's model (Jun 15, 2016)

two sheds said:


> Fair play but I care both ways. I'm half way between exit and spoiling ballot at the moment. The main reason I don't want to vote exit is what I think is going to happen after the referendum.
> 
> Cameron has said that he’s staying on. If that happens he’ll use an Exit votes as an excuse to slash NHS spending even more, cut benefits and push austerity on the poor even further. If he goes we’ll have an even further right wing replacement and they'll no doubt do the same.
> 
> If I thought for a moment it would mean an election that the tories might lose I'd vote exit.


I vote out for the day we march on downing Street to evict dc


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## belboid (Jun 15, 2016)

It's not just about what happens immediately after the election tho, is it? We wont get another vote for thirty odd years. I want to nationalise the railways (and various other things) before then


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## two sheds (Jun 15, 2016)

Agreed. I think we're going to get TTIP either way, though which unfortunately will likely rule that out.  

Sorry about the 'liberal' bit by the way, it seems to be used as a general-purpose insult so I'm always keen to join in with the spirit of things.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 15, 2016)

belboid said:


> Everyone (on this thraead anyway) will surely go Vote Leave if this is true - Sinn Féin calls for vote on Irish reunification if UK backs Brexit



Oh no


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## planetgeli (Jun 15, 2016)

bi0boy said:


> Just been swayed again by this article in the Telegraph, one of the best brexit arguments I've read in a newspaper.



Yeah I'm always up for double-barrelled surname Cambridge graduates (born in Oxford - well, he didn't become the fucking guitarist in Ride did he?) business editors of the Telegraph swaying my vote for me.

And yes I read it. God help me.


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## mather (Jun 15, 2016)

two sheds said:


> Fair play but I care both ways. I'm half way between exit and spoiling ballot at the moment. The main reason I don't want to vote exit is what I think is going to happen after the referendum.
> 
> Cameron has said that he’s staying on. If that happens he’ll use an Exit votes as an excuse to slash NHS spending even more, cut benefits and push austerity on the poor even further. If he goes we’ll have an even further right wing replacement and they'll no doubt do the same.
> 
> If I thought for a moment it would mean an election that the tories might lose I'd vote exit.



I wouldn't put too much faith in what Cameron says he is going to do or not, the man is a professional and serial liar. 

But do you really think that he has any chance of staying on in power if he loses this referendum? After all he has staked what is left of his political career on this issue and even if he doesn't want to go, do you really think the rest of his party would allow him to continue as prime minister in the event of a Brexit vote, I really can't see that happening. If the pro-EU vote wins then the position of Cameron and the Tory government as a whole is secure and the chances of them winning the next election increase dramatically. Many will see a pro-EU vote as a vote of confidence in Cameron and the government and this perception will be held by many others outside Westminster as well.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 15, 2016)

two sheds said:


> Fair play but I care both ways. I'm half way between exit and spoiling ballot at the moment. The main reason I don't want to vote exit is what I think is going to happen after the referendum.
> 
> Cameron has said that he’s staying on. If that happens he’ll use an Exit votes as an excuse to slash NHS spending even more, cut benefits and push austerity on the poor even further. If he goes we’ll have an even further right wing replacement and they'll no doubt do the same.
> 
> If I thought for a moment it would mean an election that the tories might lose I'd vote exit.




Leave means Cameron's gone. Remain and he's pretty much a dead duck too. And either way there is a good chance of the Tory party tearing itself apart so badly that a general election would need to be called and it is just possible that Corbyn could swing it. Which is when we see that Corbyn turns out to be another tedious old cunt who spectacularly fails to live up to expectations.


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## weltweit (Jun 15, 2016)

mather said:


> But do you really think that he has any chance of staying on in power if he loses this referendum? After all he has staked what is left of his political career on this issue and even if he doesn't want to go, do you really think the rest of his party would allow him to continue as prime minister in the event of a Brexit vote, I really can't see that happening. If the pro-EU vote wins then the position of Cameron and the Tory government as a whole is secure and the chances of them winning the next election increase dramatically. Many will see a pro-EU vote as a vote of confidence in Cameron and the government and this perception will be held by many others outside Westminster as well.


Don't you think this and next parliaments are too short a timeframe to consider the implications of the referendum? Should people not be thinking 50 years ahead?


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## two sheds (Jun 15, 2016)

Well this discussion is my fault and yes it should be about the long term effects of the EU/not the EU. But it's the tories who are in power and they are going to determine conditions for the next four years. They can do a fuck load of damage from either side.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 15, 2016)

mather said:


> If the pro-EU vote wins then the position of Cameron and the Tory government as a whole is secure and the chances of them winning the next election increase dramatically. Many will see a pro-EU vote as a vote of confidence in Cameron and the government and this perception will be held by many others outside Westminster as well.



Do not agree. In the event of remain he's lost a raft of senior colleagues who were outers. If he manages to hold shit together with the party, those who were scared in to voting remain by Project Fear will see just what vengeance the EU will rain down upon the UK for having the fucking nerve to question their authority. If he gets off with just his head on a spike with a pig fucking it he'll be lucky


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## DotCommunist (Jun 15, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Which is when we see that Corbyn turns out to be another tedious old cunt who spectacularly fails to live up to expectations.


How the fuck dare you. Iron Corbz will deliver full communism or I'll eat my fourth favourite hat


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## weltweit (Jun 15, 2016)

I wonder if a leave vote would damage Corbyn?


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## Artaxerxes (Jun 15, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> How the fuck dare you. Iron Corbz will deliver full communism or I'll eat my fourth favourite hat




4 hats! You bourgeois tool of the capitalist system!


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## DotCommunist (Jun 15, 2016)

Artaxerxes said:


> 4 hats! You bourgeois tool of the capitalist system!


I've got 5 beanies and three caps. On any given day I can find three of them. And its never the one you want, its a make do situation. I should really buy a hat tree


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## Cid (Jun 15, 2016)

belboid said:


> It's not just about what happens immediately after the election tho, is it? We wont get another vote for thirty odd years. I want to nationalise the railways (and various other things) before then



Said this before but there's absolutely no reason another vote couldn't be called. Technically we don't even need a referendum (Parliamentary supremacy), though in practice it's likely.


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## Puddy_Tat (Jun 15, 2016)

weltweit said:


> I wonder if a leave vote would damage Corbyn?


 
i've seen a few articles etc suggesting that a 'leave' vote would probably result in the blairites trying (even harder) to turf corbyn out.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 15, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> In the referendum every vote carries equal weight, _if you don't care either way, don't vote, not big deal_.


Or indeed if you don't care for either neoliberal alternative...equally. Abstaining does not have to be cast as 'dithering', 'apathy' or 'not caring'...it can be a positive rejection...particularly if ballots are spolit.​


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## Cid (Jun 15, 2016)

two sheds said:


> Agreed. I think we're going to get TTIP either way, though which unfortunately will likely rule that out.
> 
> Sorry about the 'liberal' bit by the way, it seems to be used as a general-purpose insult so I'm always keen to join in with the spirit of things.



We will be holding basically no cards, likely with an Atlanticist government. I don't think 'out to prevent TTIP' makes a great deal of sense.


----------



## mather (Jun 15, 2016)

weltweit said:


> Don't you think this and next parliaments are too short a timeframe to consider the implications of the referendum? Should people not be thinking 50 years ahead?



Well first off I was merely replying to what others were saying with regards to how the results of the referendum could affect the chances of this government remaining in power after another general election.

As for your question, yes I do think more longer term issues concerning our membership of the EU should be considered and those issues are part of my own reasoning for being opposed to the EU and my decision to vote leave come the 23rd of June. Usually one is faced with a dichotomy of the benefits of the short term versus the long term however on the issue of leaving the EU the short term benefits compliment the longer term ones, at least in the way I see it.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 15, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Or indeed if you don't care for either neoliberal alternative...equally. Abstaining does not have to be cast as 'dithering', 'apathy' or 'not caring'...it can be a positive rejection...particularly if ballots are spolit.​




Not really, mandate counts for nothing in referendum, if only one vote is cast that wins. It's similar to a union vote, abstainers are seen as happy to go with the majority. If you don't like the flavour of either outcome, out is where you put your mark, as that is likely to fuck shit up most.


----------



## two sheds (Jun 15, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Or indeed if you don't care for either neoliberal alternative...equally. Abstaining does not have to be cast as 'dithering', 'apathy' or 'not caring'...it can be a positive rejection...particularly if ballots are spolit.​



I love it that the police commissioner bollox elections get turnouts of 15% 

I'm going to cut off your right leg or your left leg now which one is it going to be? Don't dither.


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## brogdale (Jun 15, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Not really, mandate counts for nothing in referendum, if only one vote is cast that wins. It's similar to a union vote, abstainers are seen as happy to go with the majority. If you don't like the flavour of either outcome, out is where you put your mark, as that is likely to fuck shit up most.


But, unlike a simple union vote, spoilt papers will be recorded.


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## Puddy_Tat (Jun 15, 2016)

Having read a lot of opinions (including the varied opinions of trade unions and left / leftish politicians) I'm still really not sure.

To some extent, the whole thing feels more like a tory leadership election than anything else, with a heck of a lot of bullshit put out by both sides - the tory remain's "the sky will fall if you vote leave" line, and the tory leave's "immigrants, immigrants, immigrants" not to mention the hyper-bullshit of a bunch of privatisers pretending to support the NHS.  Both options mean siding with some tory cunts.  Which means I can see some merits in the 'draw a cock on the paper' option.

I can't argue too much with the arguments about the EU being less than democratic, too pro big business, pro privatisation and so on (which have been aired fairly thoroughly here and on other threads) so can see merits in voting leave as well.

While I'm fully aware that neither the EU or the cameron government is anything like a friend of the average working person, the idea of - in the short to medium term at least - an even more right wing tory government does not fill me with any sort of enthusiasm.

Most of the tory leave people have made a lot of noises about the burden of EU red tape on business etc, so an even greater attack on rights at work (dressed up in a load of bullshit about taking control and so on) seems inevitable.  (and most trade unions are taking this line)

Johnson (when he's not under instructions from his PR person to go to Pride or Carnival and say the right things) is not entirely sound on the minorities (the 'picaninnies' comment and something about gay marriage being on a part with marrying your dog) and Farage is on record as saying that anti discrimination laws should be done away with.

I don't think for a minute that there's going to be mass deportations of EU nationals starting on the day after a 'leave' vote, and in the absence of mass deportations, i'm not sure how some of the electorate is going to react. I'm fairly sure that a 'leave' vote will make the racists and homophobes (and so on) feel more validated.  And I'm not sure I like that idea.

The idea of a leave vote to give Cameron and 'the establishment' a kick up the arse is appealing, but I don't see Johnson and Farage as being anything other than the establishment's pretend 'anti establishment' characters.

I've seen one or two articles that seem very naively to think that in the aftermath of 'leave', the tories will be too busy stabbing each other in the back to stop Jeremy Corbyn getting elected in a snap election.  The Blairites would probably be equally keen to stab Corbyn in the back in the event of a leave vote, and I'm not sure that the tories' desire to stay in power wouldn't over-ride their desire to fight among themselves.  And even if there is a snap election, there's going to be a lot of union jack waving and dog whistle racism from the tories - and I can see Tories and UKIP if not having a formal pact, at least not fighting each other too much. 

Blargh.


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## brogdale (Jun 15, 2016)

Puddy_Tat said:


> Having read a lot of opinions (including the varied opinions of trade unions and left / leftish politicians) I'm still really not sure.
> 
> To some extent, the whole thing feels more like a tory leadership election than anything else, with a heck of a lot of bullshit put out by both sides - the tory remain's "the sky will fall if you vote leave" line, and the tory leave's "immigrants, immigrants, immigrants" not to mention the hyper-bullshit of a bunch of privatisers pretending to support the NHS.  Both options mean siding with some tory cunts.  Which means I can see some merits in the 'draw a cock on the paper' option.
> 
> ...


Spunking cock, I'd say.


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## J Ed (Jun 16, 2016)

belboid said:


> It's not just about what happens immediately after the election tho, is it? We wont get another vote for thirty odd years. I want to nationalise the railways (and various other things) before then



I wouldn't be surprised if we got another vote in <2 years


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## DotCommunist (Jun 16, 2016)

after a full roasting of propaganda obvs


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## Ax^ (Jun 16, 2016)

so i work with a group of voting Tory muppet as i'm finding out as the vote approaches...

who have sudden grasped on the idea that manufacturing will return to the UK if we leave the EU

ok so after decades on under investment in the sector, it will suddenly pick up

well maybe if the economy tanks and the country can drastically reduce the minimum wage


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## Yossarian (Jun 16, 2016)

J Ed said:


> I wouldn't be surprised if we got another vote in <2 years



Certainly could happen - if Brexit wins and the Scots do the sensible thing and go their own way, it'll probably be treated as a good excuse for another referendum.


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## Coolfonz (Jun 16, 2016)

Ax^ said:


> so i work with a group of voting Tory muppet as i'm finding out as the vote approaches...
> 
> who have sudden grasped on the idea that manufacturing will return to the UK if we leave the EU
> 
> ...


If sterling falls enough and stays low it could help exporters. But it will hike inflation and foreign/corporate money will step up purchases of UK assets as in 2009 onwards. Could also boost house prices as it did from 2010 onwards...and forex trading firms will make some serious dough from the volatility.


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## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 16, 2016)

Coolfonz said:


> If sterling falls enough and stays low it could help exporters. But it will hike inflation and foreign/corporate money will step up purchases of UK assets as in 2009 onwards. Could also boost house prices as it did from 2010 onwards...and forex trading firms will make some serious dough from the volatility.



I thought house prices were set to fall?


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## belboid (Jun 16, 2016)

J Ed said:


> I wouldn't be surprised if we got another vote in <2 years


Only if we vote out now


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## chilango (Jun 16, 2016)

belboid said:


> Only if we vote out now



Yep. If it's "Remain" it's not happening again unless UKIP starting winning swathes of MPs somehow.


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## 2hats (Jun 16, 2016)

Coolfonz said:


> If sterling falls enough and stays low it could help exporters.



From where do most of the raw materials used to make our exports come from?

(e2a: serious question - I'd like to know the details).


----------



## William of Walworth (Jun 16, 2016)

Great post up there from Puddy_Tat --sums up a lot of my feelings about it. I've already  voted Remain (by post) but with zero enthusiasm, while being completely aware of the negatives of it, and of capitalism.

But I did it purely for entirely negative, entirely anti-Brexit-campaign reasons. However good the left-Brexit arguments, and some of them are very good, I was simply unable to bring myself to vote on the same side as the established Brexit campaign. Whose predominant tunes have been dog-whistle and utterly repellant.

Even worse (IMO) than what the established Remain campaign tunes have been, and to say anything is worse than that is saying a lot.


----------



## Libertad (Jun 16, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> I've got 5 beanies and three caps. On any given day I can find three of them. And its never the one you want, its a make do situation. I should really buy a hat tree



Only eight hats? You don't need a hat tree you need a hat bush. It's like a nutbush but for hats.


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## TopCat (Jun 16, 2016)

J Ed said:


> I wouldn't be surprised if we got another vote in <2 years


Merkel won't let us leave without a struggle. Her project is fucked if we leave. At least they spat on the Greeks arse before they fucked them. We will get it dry for our sheer temerity.


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## Dogsauce (Jun 16, 2016)

Cid said:


> We will be holding basically no cards, likely with an Atlanticist government. I don't think 'out to prevent TTIP' makes a great deal of sense.



I think it was Grayling yesterday that was saying it'd be easier to agree trade deals 'such as the one with America' because it'd be only one country negotiating rather than 27.


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## J Ed (Jun 16, 2016)

TopCat said:


> Merkel won't let us leave without a struggle. Her project is fucked if we leave. At least they spat on the Greeks arse before they fucked them. We will get it dry for our sheer temerity.



Yes, I suppose that is another advantage of voting leave. It will do even more to expose the EU for what it is rather than how people like to remember it.


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## weltweit (Jun 16, 2016)

mather said:


> Well first off I was merely replying to what others were saying with regards to how the results of the referendum could affect the chances of this government remaining in power after another general election.



ok, fair enough. I am just concerned when I hear people talking about what the referendum could do to this particular tory government, as if that's all that matters.



mather said:


> As for your question, yes I do think more longer term issues concerning our membership of the EU should be considered and those issues are part of my own reasoning for being opposed to the EU and my decision to vote leave come the 23rd of June. Usually one is faced with a dichotomy of the benefits of the short term versus the long term however on the issue of leaving the EU the short term benefits compliment the longer term ones, at least in the way I see it.



My concern is that this referendum was called because Cameron wanted to keep his party united at the last general election. I don't see there is something the EU has recently done as the straw that broke the camel's back. And I am concerned about Scotland and the possible break up of the United Kingdom.

I think the UK is in an enviable position, we aren't in the Euro, we aren't in Schengen, and we have full single market access. The Euro zone may well continue to integrate but that doesn't have to affect the UK, and if things change significantly we can have a future in out referendum at that time. 

My main concern though is jobs, I do think a lot of jobs depend on free access to the single market, both native UK jobs and those from inward investment. I am not saying all of them will vanish on a leave vote, but I do expect it will become harder to do business with the EU from a position of being outside and a lot of foreign companies, from the USA, Japan, China etc who might have located their EU offices and factories in the UK, will then go elsewhere. And who is to say whether some foreign companies that are here at the moment, may not up sticks and move into the single market area.

I think creating an environment in which workers have jobs should be the primary concern of government, and putting a barrier (of some kind) between the UK and the largest single market, right on our doorstep, is folly.

I believe the EU has helped, with NATO, to secure peace on the European continent and I don't wish for the breakup of the EU, which I think a UK leave could hasten.

The EU is not perfect, far from it, but the UK's influence is far stronger inside than it would be outside, on regulations, on trade and on the form the future union will take. Those are some of the reasons I am voting remain.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 16, 2016)

weltweit said:


> ...*the UK's influence is far stronger inside than it would be outside*, on regulations, on trade and on the form the future union will take.


But isn't that an anodyne, platitudinous truism? Of course you can have some influence over any body of which you are member but, if you choose to leave, you're saying very clearly that you don't value that influence.


----------



## weltweit (Jun 16, 2016)

brogdale said:


> But isn't that an anodyne, platitudinous truism? Of course you can have some influence over any body of which you are member but, if you choose to leave, you're saying very clearly that you don't value that influence.


Nothing wrong with truisms 

We do have to cooperate with our neighbours and the wider world, there are all sorts of issues that are transnational. Leave campaigners like Gove are saying, we will be able to create trade deals with other countries in the world. Sure, and after walking away from the largest there is we will have to!


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 16, 2016)

weltweit said:


> I believe the EU has helped, with NATO, to secure peace on the European continent and I don't wish for the breakup of the EU, which I think a UK leave could hasten.


you seem to be forgetting the various wars in the balkans, ukraine and in the caucasus: areas "on the european continent". not to mention the wars to which nato has been party, e.g. afghanistan, bosnia. seems to me the subtext to what you're saying is waging war is fine by you particularly if it's not in europe.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 16, 2016)

weltweit said:


> Nothing wrong with truisms
> 
> We do have to cooperate with our neighbours and the wider world, there are all sorts of issues that are transnational. Leave campaigners like Gove are saying, we will be able to create trade deals with other countries in the world. Sure, and after walking away from the largest there is we will have to!


Agreed, but you specifically cited _influence _within the supra-state as your determining factor. That's just not something that will influence those that think they want out.


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## littlebabyjesus (Jun 16, 2016)

weltweit said:


> Nothing wrong with truisms


What do you mean by 'the UK', though, when you talk of influence? It's not you or me who has influence. I'm not even sure I want the UK's political elites to have influence around the world - the world may be better off without it.


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## weltweit (Jun 16, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> you seem to be forgetting the various wars in the balkans, ukraine and in the caucasus: areas "on the european continent". not to mention the wars to which nato has been party, e.g. afghanistan, bosnia. seems to me the subtext to what you're saying is waging war is fine by you particularly if it's not in europe.


Quite true, could Bosnia have been calmed faster had the EU had a military? I don't know the answer to that, but that it was a mess that could have been stopped sooner is I think undeniably true.


----------



## weltweit (Jun 16, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Agreed, but you specifically cited _influence _within the supra-state as your determining factor. That's just not something that will influence those that think they want out.


There are many and various reasons people cite for wanting out, influence or lack of it within the EU is indeed probably not one of them. My argument is rather like the better together argument in the recent Scottish referendum, Europe is better together, and the more influence we can have, by staying in, in shaping that Europe the better.


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## littlebabyjesus (Jun 16, 2016)

weltweit said:


> Quite true, could Bosnia have been calmed faster had the EU had a military? I don't know the answer to that, but that it was a mess that could have been stopped sooner is I think undeniably true.


Taking a step back, how was Yugoslavia destabilised in the first place, by whom and to what ends?


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## redsquirrel (Jun 16, 2016)

How exactly would the EU have stopped the "mess" sooner?
(Leaving aside for the moment the implicit assumption that the EU wasn't involved in the situation in Balkens)


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## weltweit (Jun 16, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> What do you mean by 'the UK', though, when you talk of influence? It's not you or me who has influence. I'm not even sure I want the UK's political elites to have influence around the world - the world may be better off without it.


If the UK votes leave, and then Scotland votes leave, perhaps Wales will follow - we will start to have less influence right there


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## Pickman's model (Jun 16, 2016)

weltweit said:


> Quite true, could Bosnia have been calmed faster had the EU had a military? I don't know the answer to that, but that it was a mess that could have been stopped sooner is I think undeniably true.


...kosovo...


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## Pickman's model (Jun 16, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> What do you mean by 'the UK', though, when you talk of influence? It's not you or me who has influence. I'm not even sure I want the UK's political elites to have influence around the world - the world may be better off without it.


it's a pity then that leaving the eu would not end the influence of the uk's political elites in such forums as the un security council and the commonwealth, not to mention the osce and council of europe.


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## littlebabyjesus (Jun 16, 2016)

weltweit said:


> If the UK votes leave, and then Scotland votes leave, perhaps Wales will follow - we will start to have less influence right there


what 'we'? I have fuck all influence as it stands. 

It's a rather corporatist, vertical way of looking at things to see interests as falling across class interests along national lines.


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## weltweit (Jun 16, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> what 'we'? I have fuck all influence as it stands.


Quite right, I shouldn't have said "we"..


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 16, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> what 'we'? I have fuck all influence as it stands.
> 
> It's a rather corporatist, vertical way of looking at things to see interests as falling across class interests along national lines.


i'm not sure weltweit's view incorporates class interests.


----------



## weltweit (Jun 16, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> i'm not sure weltweit's view incorporates class interests.


There are many more trade unions supporting remain than there are leave.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 16, 2016)

weltweit said:


> There are many more trade unions supporting remain than there are leave.


Senia Paseta is a historian of modern Ireland with a particular interest in the history of education


----------



## Flavour (Jun 16, 2016)

Because the trade unions all represent the true class interests of their members. All of them. Perfectly.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 16, 2016)

weltweit said:


> There are many more trade unions supporting remain than there are leave.


yes. that has nothing to do with my point, that your views on the subject do not incorporate class interests.


----------



## Idris2002 (Jun 16, 2016)

Someone just asked me how it will go, and I said "remain will win by the smallest of margins".

But then I realised that I have no idea how true that is, or if it's true at all. Did I shoot my mouth off without thinking?


----------



## weltweit (Jun 16, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> yes. that has nothing to do with my point, that your views on the subject do not incorporate class interests.


Probably not, but I doubt, because of the many and various supporters on either side of the debate, that class interests would cleanly align with either remain or leave. Do you think they do, and if so, why?


----------



## weltweit (Jun 16, 2016)

Idris2002 said:


> Someone just asked me how it will go, and I said "remain will win by the smallest of margins".
> 
> But then I realised that I have no idea how true that is, or if it's true at all. Did I shoot my mouth off without thinking?


You can only say what you think, I don't think even the pollsters or betting shops have a clue.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 16, 2016)

weltweit said:


> Probably not, but I doubt, because of the many and various supporters on either side of the debate, that class interests would cleanly align with either remain or leave. Do you think they do, and if so, why?


my point was a) your view rather simplistic; b) littlebabyjesus didn't understand you

the thing is that while there are 'horizontal' class issues (if you imagine class represented by a vertical tricolour) there are also 'vertical' cross-class groups whose interests are, or are believed to be, aligned: for example, manchester united fans are drawn from all classes. tory voters come from all classes, etc.

_this is a very simplified view btw_


----------



## brogdale (Jun 16, 2016)

weltweit said:


> You can only say what you think, I don't think even the pollsters or betting shops have a clue.


By definition they do _have a clue. _The clue being the findings of their polling or patterns of expenditure from their punters. Many of those clues point to a remainarian victory, though things are changing in favour of the leavists...if you accept that the clues have any validity.


----------



## bi0boy (Jun 16, 2016)

brogdale said:


> By definition they do _have a clue. _



That depends on whether they think their supposed clues are actually clues or not.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 16, 2016)

bi0boy said:


> That depends on whether they think their supposed clues are actually clues or not.


Pollsters collect the (clue) data; they have a clue.


----------



## bi0boy (Jun 16, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Pollsters collect the (clue) data; they have a clue.



By definition a clue is useful in arriving at an answer. It could be that they think they have clues, but what they actually have are distractions.


----------



## weltweit (Jun 16, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Pollsters collect the (clue) data; they have a clue.


I accept pollsters collect data and extrapolate that for the larger population and that this is a valid methodology. But, unless I imagined it, a lot of pollsters got their sums quite wrong at the last election.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 16, 2016)

weltweit said:


> I accept pollsters collect data and extrapolate that for the larger population and that this is a valid methodology. But, unless I imagined it, a lot of pollsters got their sums quite wrong at the last election.


people lie to pollsters


----------



## redsquirrel (Jun 16, 2016)

weltweit said:


> Probably not, but I doubt, because of the many and various supporters on either side of the debate, that class interests would cleanly align with either remain or leave.


The second part of this sentence is completely divorced from the first. Whether class interests align cleanly with one camp, or not, is not dependant on the makeup of the supporters of either camp.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 16, 2016)

bi0boy said:


> By definition a clue is useful in arriving at an answer. It could be that they think they have clues, but what they actually have are distractions.


Their clue(s) may not yield the final answer, but to categorise them as a distraction seems a little harsh...but we're in danger of a pedantic, semantic discussion...and we wouldn't want that on Urban, would we?


----------



## gosub (Jun 16, 2016)

weltweit said:


> ok, fair enough. I am just concerned when I hear people talking about what the referendum could do to this particular tory government, as if that's all that matters.
> 
> My concern is that this referendum was called because Cameron wanted to keep his party united at the last general election. I don't see there is something the EU has recently done as the straw that broke the camel's back. And I am concerned about Scotland and the possible break up of the United Kingdom.
> 
> ...



Again you conflate EU with Single Market, but that is getting tedious.  Somebody else said yesterday that they were frustrated that there is no consensus on what Leave would look like, that is because its down to the sovereign will of small majority parliament, and what you have among the politicians is one eye on the flim flam for the stalls they want to set out for that.  That there is a only a small majority is probably one of the reasons we are having this referendum, and it is down to us, but it also means the outcome will be a mashup and I think that is no bad thing either.

The folly of previous politicians and the mantra "ever closer Union" has leads to point where it integrates or dies (and if managed badly I concede it could well disintegrate).  As you point out the UK has a semi detached relationship with the the EU (not in EUro, not in Schengen) and if still in, after further integration, would be relegated to mad granny in the attic status. But it is for EUrope -intergrate or die.  Far better to think of the UK's membership as the stabilisers on a first bicycle.  You know they will have to be removed, and it might get a bit messy -stopping it get too messy that's back to the experts and the politicians (seems to be less overlap these days).  If we don't do it now, its not us removing the stabilisers its Mrs Merkel (or whoever her successor is) saying she doesn't need them any more. The 26 other states,stuck having a backy would have a lot more to worry about.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 16, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Pollsters collect the (clue) data; they have a clue.


but so often the conclusions they derive from the data they collect turn out to be at odds with what actually occurs.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 16, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> but so often the conclusions they derive from the data they collect turn out to be at odds with what actually occurs.


Certainly they fucked up GE 2015, but to say they have 'no clue' is odd.


----------



## weltweit (Jun 16, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> The second part of this sentence is completely divorced from the first. Whether class interests align cleanly with one camp, or not, is not dependant on the makeup of the supporters of either camp.


But, do you think class interests do align with one camp?


----------



## redsquirrel (Jun 16, 2016)

weltweit said:


> But, do you think class interests do align with one camp?


Yes, not cleanly, but as I've said plenty of times, overall I believe labours interest are with Leave.


----------



## belboid (Jun 16, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Pollsters collect the (clue) data; they have a clue.


Unless they have a red herring.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 16, 2016)

Ax^ said:


> so i work with a group of Tory filth...


I've often found those sorts shockingly shit at econo


two sheds said:


> I love it that the police commissioner bollox elections get turnouts of 15%
> 
> I'm going to cut off your right leg or your left leg now which one is it going to be? Don't dither.


I love voting for commisioner cock& balls


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Jun 16, 2016)

weltweit said:


> But, do you think class interests do align with one camp?



Leaving the EU is not some sort of pro working class panacea. But in answer to the question, 'would it on the whole be more in the interests of the working class, as a class, to stay', then the answer is no.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## cantsin (Jun 16, 2016)

Louis MacNeice said:


> Leaving the EU is not some sort of pro working class panacea. But in answer to the question, 'would it on the whole be more in the interests of the working class, as a class, to stay', then the answer is no.
> 
> Cheers - Louis MacNeice



 agree, and whilst it would be daft to have any real hopes / expectations in project Corbo as whole, it just seems counterintuitive that at the very moment that his own previously deeply held convictions re: EU ( ie : bosses, free market institution ) actually converge with prevailing working class perspectives on it ( he recently acknowledged the downward pressure on wages often caused by immigration ) , he bottles it , and  half heartedly falls in behind Remain, where he's now getting coated for his '7.5 / 10 ' approach, and will no doubt be hounded by Graun / press / PLP if Leave wins.

Not Corbo's finest moment this imo, tactically, strategically, ideologically.


----------



## gosub (Jun 16, 2016)

cantsin said:


> agree, and whilst it would be daft to have any real hopes / expectations in project Corbo as whole, it just seems counterintuitive that at the very moment that his own previously deeply held convictions re: EU ( ie : bosses, free market institution ) actually converge with prevailing working class perspectives on it ( he recently acknowledged the downward pressure on wages often caused by immigration ) , he bottles it , and  half heartedly falls in behind Remain, where he's now getting coated for his '7.5 / 10 ' approach, and will no doubt be hounded by Graun / press / PLP if Leave wins.
> 
> Not Corbo's finest moment this imo, tactically, strategically, ideologically.



Was boxed in by Conference voting remain before he was elected but shows up the flaws in his vison of a more accountable to membership agenda.  Think 7.5/10 makes sense - there is trade union and Labour Leave he has to not alienate.   

If you could get support for free bacon sandwiches through conference (with full union support) be interesting to see him campaigning for it.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 16, 2016)

gosub said:


> Was boxed in by Conference voting remain before he was elected but shows up the flaws in his vison of a more accountable to membership agenda.  Think 7.5/10 makes sense - there is trade union and Labour Leave he has to not alienate.
> 
> If you could get support for free bacon sandwiches through conference (with full union support) be interesting to see him campaigning for it.


as long as a veggie alternative is available for people who don't eat pork


----------



## gosub (Jun 16, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> as long as a veggie alternative is available for people who don't eat pork


which would completely remove the point I was making


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 16, 2016)

gosub said:


> which would completely remove the point I was making


oh, there was a _point_, i thought you were banging away on the keyboard and - serendipity! - something which almost made sense appeared.


----------



## Coolfonz (Jun 16, 2016)

2hats said:


> From where do most of the raw materials used to make our exports come from?
> 
> (e2a: serious question - I'd like to know the details).


It depends really. But yes some will be imported. Exported financial services might do well. But it depends how long/far sterling falls/for.


----------



## Coolfonz (Jun 16, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> I thought house prices were set to fall?


That's due to the rush to get in before stamp duty went up, and only temporarily. If sterling drops say 20pc then it's a great time for corporate money/foreign money to buy more UK assets. Floods of cash out there as well, especially US and M East.


----------



## two sheds (Jun 16, 2016)

Aren't the raw materials going to balance out? The imported raw materials will be more expensive for us but when we export them again they'll end up having been the same price as countries will have paid for them?


----------



## belboid (Jun 16, 2016)

two sheds said:


> Aren't the raw materials going to balance out? The imported raw materials will be more expensive for us but when we export them again they'll end up having been the same price as countries will have paid for them?


Not really. There aren't that many really raw materials imported these days, other than foodstuffs. We tend to send raw materials to developing nations to do the labour intensive work, and then just put items together, or even just fling them on.


----------



## Dogsauce (Jun 16, 2016)

After the last recession houses bombed in price round my way (and are still below the 2008 values), but nobody could get a mortgage to buy one, so they got bought up by cash-rich landlords who didn't need to borrow. Few people gained from it. The same would happen following a Brexit slump.


----------



## weltweit (Jun 16, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> Yes, not cleanly, but as I've said plenty of time overall I believe labours interest are with Leave.





Louis MacNeice said:


> Leaving the EU is not some sort of pro working class panacea. But in answer to the question, 'would it on the whole be more in the interests of the working class, as a class, to stay', then the answer is no.



I can't see it myself. I would have thought the first responsibility is to jobs and I think a leave vote will damage jobs. It won't damage capital because capital is mobile and can just move elsewhere. A lot would depend on who wins elections in a post EU UK or rumpUK (assuming Sturgeon has her way), if it is the tories workers rights will not be high on the agenda.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Jun 16, 2016)

weltweit said:


> I can't see it myself. I would have thought the first responsibility is to jobs and I think a leave vote will damage jobs. It won't damage capital because capital is mobile and can just move elsewhere. A lot would depend on who wins elections in a post EU UK or rumpUK (assuming Sturgeon has her way), if it is the tories workers rights will not be high on the agenda.



Look for example at the evidence of Greece, Spain, Italy, Portugal and Ireland (or if you prefer consider the rules on international trade union solidarity); when push comes to shove the EU is not about workers' rights...at bottom it is all about the protection and promotion of big capital. What you are doing is promoting a short term sectional interest against a long term fundamental one.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## chilango (Jun 16, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> people lie to pollsters



...and get paid whether they lie or not  Kerrrrching!


----------



## weltweit (Jun 16, 2016)

Louis MacNeice said:


> Look for example at the evidence of Greece, Spain, Italy, Portugal and Ireland (or if you prefer consider the rules on international trade union solidarity); when push comes to shove the EU is not about workers' rights...at bottom it is all about the protection and promotion of big capital. What you are doing is promoting a short term sectional interest against a long term fundamental one.


I don't know enough about Greece but how can what has happened in Spain be in the interests of capital? The jobs market, the property market, pretty much all economic activity is in dire straits, how does what has happened in Spain benefit any group?


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Jun 16, 2016)

weltweit said:


> I don't know enough about Greece but how can what has happened in Spain be in the interests of capital? The jobs market, the property market, pretty much all economic activity is in dire straits, how does what has happened in Spain benefit any group?



Do you think the working class in Spain, Greece, Italy, Ireland and Portugal have been empowered or attacked by the various EU imposed austerity measures and changes to national governance?

The fact that you seem to be looking to the jobs market and property market for solutions is actually ultimately part of the problem.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## weltweit (Jun 16, 2016)

Louis MacNeice said:


> Do you think the working class in Spain, Greece, Italy, Ireland and Portugal have been empowered or attacked by the various EU imposed austerity measures and changes to national governance?


It is all very well you asking me another question  but you haven't answered mine - which was how could what has happened in Spain be in the interests of capital?


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Jun 16, 2016)

weltweit said:


> It is all very well you asking me another question  but you haven't answered mine - which was how could what has happened in Spain be in the interests of capital?



If you can't see how my question is an answer to you, then I'm a bit at a loss how to move this on. If the answer to my question is that the working class in all those countries has been attacked and weakened, then the advantage to capital should be obvious. Unless of course you see the interests of capital and labour as being mutually compatible.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## redsquirrel (Jun 16, 2016)

weltweit said:


> I can't see it myself. I would have thought the first responsibility is to jobs and I think a leave vote will damage jobs. It won't damage capital because capital is mobile and can just move elsewhere. A lot would depend on who wins elections in a post EU UK or rumpUK (assuming Sturgeon has her way), if it is the tories workers rights will not be high on the agenda.


This is simply a parroting of the words of Osbourne, Cameron, Blair, Brown, Carney, etc.

You've consistently argued for the of the EU on a neo-liberal basis (post 1191 being a wonderful example of that). In fact I've never seen you take a class based perspective on any issue. I mean look at this banality


weltweit said:


> I think creating an environment in which workers have jobs should be the primary concern of government, and putting a barrier (of some kind) between the UK and the largest single market, right on our doorstep, is folly.


A c&p of the language of the neo-liberals when they are arguing for free-trade deals.


----------



## weltweit (Jun 16, 2016)

Louis MacNeice said:


> If you can't see how my question is an answer to you, then I'm a bit at a loss how to move this on. If the answer to my question is that the working class in all those countries has been attacked and weakened, then the advantage to capital should be obvious. Unless of course you see the interests of capital and labour as being mutually compatible.


Everyone in Spain is hurting, economic activity is down overall. I accept I haven't made an argument based on class politics, I don't fully agree with it - because - in my background, teams of people financed by capital, make things which they sell. The sales revenue pays the salaries and the profit for capital. One can't easily exist in that scenario without the other. I accept workers can have better or worse terms conditions and pay packets - but many of the terms and conditions UK workers have are enshrined by the EU and my belief is that the UK Tory party ( in a possible leave scenario ) is a greater threat to UK workers conditions than the EU is.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Jun 16, 2016)

weltweit said:


> *Everyone in Spain is hurting*, economic activity is down overall. I accept I haven't made an argument based on class politics, I don't fully agree with it - because - in my background, teams of people financed by capital, make things which they sell. *The sales revenue pays the salaries and the profit for capital. One can't easily exist in that scenario without the other.* I accept workers can have better or worse terms conditions and pay packets - but many of the terms and conditions UK workers have are enshrined by the EU and my belief is that the UK Tory party ( in a possible leave scenario ) is a greater threat to UK workers conditions than the EU is.



In 2015 the OECD found evidence of a widening divide between the rich and the poor in Spain, so it would seem that some are hurting more than others.

The truth is that the Spanish are not all in this together anymore than we are in the UK.

Surely you mean the value added by the workers is used to supply both their wages and the profits?

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## weltweit (Jun 16, 2016)

Louis MacNeice said:


> In 2015 the OECD found evidence of a widening divide between the rich and the poor in Spain, so it would seem that some are hurting more than others.
> 
> The truth is that the Spanish are not all in this together anymore than we are in the UK.



I think the crux we are dancing around is whether the EU somehow caused the problems in Spain, perhaps being part of the Euro zone or was it something else? I visited Spain twice annually for many years, at first there were jobs, seemingly for all, businesses growing and great optimism, but that changed, jobs were lost, the property market crashed, businesses closed. Now the situation is dire. If the EU / Euro zone caused this, why, how?



Louis MacNeice said:


> Surely you mean the value added by the workers is used to supply both their wages and the profits?



I don't mind looking at it that way no. It depends a little how you structure the costs of the enterprise, the aim is to cover your costs, return on capital employed being one of them.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 16, 2016)

weltweit said:


> Everyone in Spain is hurting, economic activity is down overall. I accept I haven't made an argument based on class politics, I don't fully agree with it - because - in my background, teams of people financed by capital, make things which they sell. The sales revenue pays the salaries and the profit for capital. One can't easily exist in that scenario without the other. I accept workers can have better or worse terms conditions and pay packets - but many of the terms and conditions UK workers have are enshrined by the EU and my belief is that the UK Tory party ( in a possible leave scenario ) is a greater threat to UK workers conditions than the EU is.


see littlebabyjesus? you didn't understand what ww was saying.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 16, 2016)

weltweit said:


> ...jobs were lost, the property market crashed, businesses closed. Now the situation is dire. *If the EU / Euro zone caused this, why, how?*


How have you managed to avoid this story that's been rehearsed regularly on Urban?


----------



## weltweit (Jun 16, 2016)

brogdale said:


> How have you managed to avoid this story that's been rehearsed regularly on Urban?


Bin busy ..  No I have seen comments on it but I would be lying if I said I fully understood it.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 16, 2016)

weltweit said:


> Bin busy ..  No I have seen comments on it but I would be lying if I said I fully understood it.


That's evident.


----------



## Coolfonz (Jun 16, 2016)

brogdale said:


> How have you managed to avoid this story that's been rehearsed regularly on Urban?


The crash in Spain was very complex, a lot to do with the legacy of fascism as much as anything the EU did/didn't. The Euro however is a huge fuck up.


----------



## Santino (Jun 16, 2016)

Urban's greatest troll, perhaps. Years of work in the making.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 16, 2016)

Coolfonz said:


> The crash in Spain was very complex, a lot to do with the legacy of fascism as much as anything the EU did/didn't. The Euro however is a huge fuck up.


more than 30 years after the death of franco, quite good going for a legacy


----------



## Steel Icarus (Jun 16, 2016)

I know a bit about the arguments for leaving, but I'm having a hard time envisioning a circumstance where leaving will ever lead to the sort of advantages those on here advocating a (ugh) "Lexit" would theoretically bring.
Still intending to spoil my paper, if I go at all. Aside from here all other arguments are doing my tits in.


----------



## frogwoman (Jun 17, 2016)

S☼I said:


> I know a bit about the arguments for leaving, but I'm having a hard time envisioning a circumstance where leaving will ever lead to the sort of advantages those on here advocating a (ugh) "Lexit" would theoretically bring.
> Still intending to spoil my paper, if I go at all. Aside from here all other arguments are doing my tits in.



Same.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 17, 2016)

this'll be the only time I don't spoil my ballot and I vote in everything. Even the PCC elections that no one else does. I know its 'twats to the left of me fuckers to the right of me' but I'm well out of it. Bunch of cunts. The right will do as it always does, operate capital so at the end of the day its a vote to spite them. Not after greece not afer italy. They can go fuck themselves and I hope an exit victory destabalises the entire project to breaking point. Its a capitalit boys club. Liberals are refusing to get this. They just fucked an entire country over !
then that lib/green nob free spirit says 'they couldn't do that to us'

you fucking penis. Injury to one injury to all. And no they couldn't currency fuck us like they did to greece but there would be serious capital strike in order to create a sense of emrgencey. We've got to go, these cunts have redefined rapacious


----------



## Ax^ (Jun 17, 2016)

voting out then


----------



## youngian (Jun 17, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> this'll be the only time I don't spoil my ballot and I vote in everything. Even the PCC elections that no one else does. I know its 'twats to the left of me fuckers to the right of me' but I'm well out of it. Bunch of cunts. The right will do as it always does, operate capital so at the end of the day its a vote to spite them. Not after greece not afer italy. They can go fuck themselves and I hope an exit victory destabalises the entire project to breaking point. Its a capitalit boys club. Liberals are refusing to get this. They just fucked an entire country over !
> then that lib/green nob free spirit says 'they couldn't do that to us'
> 
> you fucking penis. Injury to one injury to all. And no they couldn't currency fuck us like they did to greece but there would be serious capital strike in order to create a sense of emrgencey. We've got to go, these cunts have redefined rapacious


Ranting populist rage towards the EU, been quite a bit of that around lately. But yeh they're all evil lizard men.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 17, 2016)

youngian said:


> Ranting populist rage towards the EU, been quite a bit of that around lately. But yeh they're all evil lizard men.


been around since italy for me. I'll drag the quotes out if you like? But by all means, do your best to paint others as unaware when to my eyes the bleatings from your quarter only started recently when the EU ref campaigns started and you realised 'holy shit they fucking hate us and might fuck us up'

you'll win anyway. Your sorts always do.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 17, 2016)

oh and kudos on the conspiracy theory dig. You fucking penis.


----------



## Ax^ (Jun 17, 2016)

so they hate the UK but you can work better trade deals...


----------



## bi0boy (Jun 17, 2016)

I don't see the argument for spoiling in this instance. Surely in a normal election spoiling says "I want to record my willingness to participate but I don't like these options above I want other ones", or perhaps "I care about how the country is run but I don't like participatory democracy pls don't think I don't care".

Not sure how that applies here, by spoiling the referendum what message are you hoping to send? "I want to participate in an in/out referendum but I don't"?


----------



## Steel Icarus (Jun 17, 2016)

I won't be able to stomach the reaction whoever wins. All sides are being ugly and I've never seen any election where so many are being cunts about it.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Jun 17, 2016)

bi0boy said:


> I don't see the argument for spoiling in this instance. Surely in a normal election spoiling says "I want to record my willingness to participate but I don't like these options above I want other ones", or perhaps "I care about how the country is run but I don't like participatory democracy pls don't think I don't care".
> 
> Not sure how that applies here, by spoiling the referendum what message are you hoping to send? "I want to participate in an in/out referendum but I don't"?


"I would love to vote for something that wasn't  between two shitty options like these"


----------



## bi0boy (Jun 17, 2016)

S☼I said:


> "I would love to vote for something that wasn't  between two shitty options like these"



It's an in/out choice. What do you want to vote for? Kittens?


----------



## Steel Icarus (Jun 17, 2016)

My ability with numbers, let alone financial systems, is toss, but does it not make a difference that we're in the EU but not the Euro?


----------



## Steel Icarus (Jun 17, 2016)

bi0boy said:


> It's an in/out choice. What do you want to vote for? Kittens?


It's not, though, it's a vote between scenarios, and what they might mean. But yeah, kittens, good


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 17, 2016)

the right to vote includes the right not do so, end of. Although I would prefer abstainers to vote cock n balls cos thats at least funny and cannot happen enough times


----------



## bi0boy (Jun 17, 2016)

S☼I said:


> It's not, though, it's a vote between scenarios, and what they might mean. But yeah, kittens, good



Sure it's distilled into a binary choice. You could have lots of options regarding this country's relationship with Europe but then the winning option would likely only have minority support. Or you could fuck Cameron's silly referendum off entirely and leave it to our elected representatives to manage our relationship with Europe, but then spoiling doesn't support that view.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Jun 17, 2016)

Spoiling it allows me to register a "fuck you" which is about as much involvement in the democratic process as I can stand right now. I just don't show and it could be for all sorts of reasons; forgot, didn't care, missed bus, was drunk, was stroking a kitten, etc.


----------



## emanymton (Jun 17, 2016)

S☼I said:


> I know a bit about the arguments for leaving, but I'm having a hard time envisioning a circumstance where leaving will ever lead to the sort of advantages those on here advocating a (ugh) "Lexit" would theoretically bring.
> Still intending to spoil my paper, if I go at all. Aside from here all other arguments are doing my tits in.


Officially  I'm leave. But in reality come the day I don't think I'll be able to stomach going down and actually voting for it. Thing is if we do vote to leave will I be happy, will I feel we have won some sort of victory? Frankly no. In fact I think I will feel more miserable and depressed by an out vote than an in one.


----------



## two sheds (Jun 17, 2016)

I'm thinking of "Neither of the choices we've been offered". 

Dotty you reacted angrily to criticism of your post but had thrown in stuff like  "Its a capitalit boys club. Liberals are refusing to get this." I do get it, are you saying that any of the British governments since Thatcher haven't been? 

It's not just an 'out' vote it's an 'out into something else'. I hope 'out' win but the larger the majority the more the tories will take it as justification to have a go at immigrants and environmental and health/safety laws. Liberals are refusing to get this.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jun 17, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> been around since italy for me. I'll drag the quotes out if you like? But by all means, do your best to paint others as unaware when to my eyes the bleatings from your quarter only started recently when the EU ref campaigns started and you realised 'holy shit they fucking hate us and might fuck us up'
> 
> you'll win anyway. Your sorts always do.


Is this a moral question or a practical one? What has happened in Italy, Greece, Spain, etc, is not really of much practical relevance to the UK's membership of the EU as the UK isn't in the euro. Not being in the euro means the UK is in a completely different kind of EU from the countries in the eurozone, which are tied together politically and economically, with the Germans and French calling most of the shots. 

If it's a moral question, I'm pretty much with two sheds above - for the last few decades there has been precious little moral about the UK as a political entity, hardly any better (and by some measures worse) than the EU taken as a whole. The UK didn't have its austerity imposed on it by the EU, after all. If it's a practical question, citing what has happened in the eurozone doesn't quite cut it.


----------



## belboid (Jun 17, 2016)

When the vote is done, then we start the next campaign. Your in is simply a 'we can't change anything really, so let's make sure we can At least maintain the status quo

(That was to two sheds, but works for lbj too)


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jun 17, 2016)

belboid said:


> When the vote is done, then we start the next campaign. Your in is simply a 'we can't change anything really, so let's make sure we can At least maintain the status quo


The point being, surely, that this isn't the campaign. The campaign that matters is the one against austerity. This referendum doesn't even touch on that.


----------



## belboid (Jun 17, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> The point being, surely, that this isn't the campaign. The campaign that matters is the one against austerity. This referendum doesn't even touch on that.


Of course it is, if you think the EU isn't partially responsible for austerity, you're mistaken. They do impose their economy will even without us using the euro


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 17, 2016)

S☼I said:


> I know a bit about the arguments for leaving, but I'm having a hard time envisioning a circumstance where leaving will ever lead to the sort of advantages those on here advocating a (ugh) "Lexit" would theoretically bring.
> Still intending to spoil my paper, if I go at all. Aside from here all other arguments are doing my tits in.



It's about bargaining power. Only organised labour can force changes that benefit ordinary people. Organised labour is weaker inside the EU than out, and that's regardless of how many 'protections' are promised by the EU elite.


----------



## crossthebreeze (Jun 17, 2016)

bi0boy said:


> It's an in/out choice. What do you want to vote for? Kittens?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jun 17, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> It's about bargaining power. Only organised labour can force changes that benefit ordinary people. Organised labour is weaker inside the EU than out, and that's regardless of how many 'protections' are promised by the EU elite.


There is a range of power for organised labour within the EU. From the UK with its Thatcherite anti-union laws to the likes of Denmark, where the unions are embedded deeply into the system, organising minimum wages, etc. I'm not convinced that membership or not of the EU makes much if any difference.

It's also not quite right to call what the EU currently provides " 'protections' ". They're backed by law and enforceable. Tell part-time workers who now have holiday pay that it makes no difference. Such things haven't been simply bestowed from above either. Various labour unions have been involved in producing them.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Jun 17, 2016)

belboid said:


> When the vote is done, then we start the next campaign. Your in is simply a 'we can't change anything really, so let's make sure we can At least maintain the status quo
> 
> (That was to two sheds, but works for lbj too)


The left would have trouble getting a deposit back, its not there as a political force to lead us into some post-eu utopia. On the other hand politicians like Grayling and IDS will be in the ascendant if the vote is leave.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 17, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> There is a range of power for organised labour within the EU. From the UK with its Thatcherite anti-union laws to the likes of Denmark, where the unions are embedded deeply into the system, organising minimum wages, etc. I'm not convinced that membership or not of the EU makes much if any difference.
> 
> It's also not quite right to call what the EU currently provides " 'protections' ". They're backed by law and enforceable. Tell part-time workers who now have holiday pay that it makes no difference. Such things haven't been simply bestowed from above either. Various labour unions have been involved in producing them.



But this doesn't address the question of how it was possible for Thatcher to introduce those anti-union laws in the first place. What were the conditions that led to the weakness of organised labour at that point in time? I would argue that the free movement of labour and capital that came about as a result of joining the EEC played some part in this weakness.


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## belboid (Jun 17, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> But this doesn't address the question of how it was possible for Thatcher to introduce those anti-union laws in the first place. What were the conditions that led to the weakness of organised labour at that point in time? I would argue that the free movement of labour and capital that came about as a result of joining the EEC played some part in this weakness.


 aye, cos the miners strike as caused by moving all the mines to bangladesh, and importing cheap Polish workers

(ps, we didn't really have free movement when we joined the EEC, that didn't happen until '92)


----------



## Yossarian (Jun 17, 2016)

I'll vote for a Lexit when Britain starts electing itself leftist governments. Until then, there's no use shifting power from Brussels to the horrible Tory cunts running the country.

A "Leave" vote isn't a vote against capitalism, it's a vote to get in bed with the Ukippers and no good will come of it.


----------



## J Ed (Jun 17, 2016)

youngian said:


> Ranting populist rage towards the EU, been quite a bit of that around lately. But yeh they're all evil lizard men.



Stupidest comment I've seen on here in a while.


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## J Ed (Jun 17, 2016)

Yossarian said:


> I'll vote for a Lexit when Britain starts electing itself leftist governments. Until then, there's no use shifting power from Brussels to the horrible Tory cunts running the country.
> 
> A "Leave" vote isn't a vote against capitalism, it's a vote to get in bed with the Ukippers and no good will come of it.



Why are you voting for Goldman Sachs and David Cameron?


----------



## hot air baboon (Jun 17, 2016)

Yossarian said:


> A "Leave" vote isn't a vote against capitalism, it's a vote to get in bed with the Ukippers and no good will come of it.



...with their mighty electoral block of....one...

...and of whom it could be said Carswell is actually a pretty decent man of some integrity in stark contrast to very many others from the other parties ( & have you seen some of the parties represented in the European parliament  ? )


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 17, 2016)

I said I wasn't going to do this (to myself) cos its cunty but I'm sick of being sneered at. Declare an interest and your salary PA (cos you will be salaried rather than hourly). Remain voters.


----------



## Cid (Jun 17, 2016)

J Ed said:


> Why are you voting for Goldman Sachs and David Cameron?



Why are you voting for Farage, the DUP and all the other Brexit cunts?

Clearly you're not, but attaching this argument to personalities is making for an absolutely shit argument on both sides.

e2a: er... sorry, knee-jerking, noted Yoss's linking of exit to kippers.


----------



## laptop (Jun 17, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> (cos you will be salaried rather than hourly). Remain voters.



Has drink been taken?

Casual hourly-paid workers have more of a direct interest in Working Time - paid time off, minimum breaks - than anyone else. For example.


----------



## discokermit (Jun 17, 2016)

c2's, d-e's all voting out.


----------



## redsquirrel (Jun 17, 2016)

J Ed said:


> Stupidest comment I've seen on here in a while.


Bit worse than stupid IMO. At best DC is supposedly a UKIP-lite loon, at worst he's been equated to Mair.

Frankly it's a disgusting post and the fact that it's just one in a sea of shitty smears (unchallenged by anyone who is intending to vote Remain) is pathetic.

EDIT: The anyone above is unfair, there have been a couple of Remain posters that have criticised this crap


----------



## JuanTwoThree (Jun 17, 2016)

I'd like to have a fucking vote, somewhere. I can't exercise my franchise in Spanish (general) elections though what happens here seriously affects me and I can't vote in the UK referendum either, which also seriously affects me.


----------



## J Ed (Jun 17, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> Bit worse than stupid IMO. At best DC is supposedly a UKIP-lite loon, at worst he's been equated to Mair.
> 
> Frankly it's a disgusting post and the fact that it's just one in a sea of shitty smears (unchallenged by anyone who is intending to vote Remain) is pathetic.



Yes, you know I don't even know what the point of the comment is other than an attempt at demonstrating some sort of supposed moral superiority, does Yossarian really think that he is going to win people over by comparing them to racist terrorists and David Icke? Personally what got to me about it was the implication that DotCommunist simply hadn't thought through the issue sufficiently or that he is incapable of doing that. Anyone who has actually taken the time to engage with DotCommunist, on this subject or really any other, can see that is far from the case. If I were a Remain campaign strategist this sort of knee-jerk ignorance would be causing me to tear my hair out.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 17, 2016)

laptop said:


> Casual hourly-paid workers have more of a direct interest in Working Time - paid time off, minimum breaks - than anyone else. For example.



Working time directive is never enforced as they always make you sign the right away when you start the job anyway. Paid time off is lower than here in most other EU countries, and equally as high in many non-EU ones. I'm still not convinced by the scare stories of a libertarian dystopia descending on us the day after a leave vote. Especially given how small the Tory majority is.







Minimum mandatory paid vacation days, normalized for a five-day workweek:

White: No data
Gray: No vacation
Light Green: 1–5 days
Turquoise: 6–10 days
V.Light Blue: 11–15 days
Light Blue: 16–20 days
Dark Blue: 21–22 days
V.Dark Blue: 23–28 days

List of minimum annual leave by country - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## laptop (Jun 17, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> Working time directive is never enforced as they always make you sign the right away when you start the job anyway. Paid time off is lower than here in most other EU countries, and equally as high in many non-EU ones. I'm still not convinced by the scare stories of a libertarian dystopia descending on us the day after a leave vote. Especially given how small the Tory majority is.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


But at present in the UK casual hourly-paid workers do get paid time off and minimum breaks - because of Working Time. And getting rid of such nuisances is the major motivation for Leave backers.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 17, 2016)

laptop said:


> But at present in the UK casual hourly-paid workers do get paid time off and minimum breaks - because of Working Time. And getting rid of such nuisances is the major motivation for Leave backers.



Is it though? And so what if it is? They don't get their way just because a referendum on a separate issue is won. The labour laws implemented whilst in the EU don't just get automatically annulled. They have to be actively changed as they are now part of UK law. That won't be easy for the government to do.


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## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 17, 2016)

belboid said:


> aye, cos the miners strike as caused by moving all the mines to bangladesh, and importing cheap Polish workers
> 
> (ps, we didn't really have free movement when we joined the EEC, that didn't happen until '92)



Well they certainly moved mining somewhere not here.






Coal mining in the United Kingdom - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## mojo pixy (Jun 17, 2016)

I don't really know a context for this snippet and I've only just seen it (also apologies for it being on FB):



I'm trying to see it as anything other than incitement.


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## Jeff Robinson (Jun 17, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> Is it though? And so what if it is? They don't get their way just because a referendum on a separate issue is won. The labour laws implemented whilst in the EU don't just get automatically annulled. They have to be actively changed as they are now part of UK law. That won't be easy for the government to do.



Much of EU law has direct effect in the UK without the need for specific national legislation. In the event that the UK leaves the EU, it will no longer be applicable. I also wouldn't be sanguine about the tories' ability to repeal legislation protecting workers' rights. You only have to look at the present trade union bill as proof of that.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Jun 17, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> Bit worse than stupid IMO. At best DC is supposedly a UKIP-lite loon, at worst he's been equated to Mair.
> 
> Frankly it's a disgusting post and the fact that it's just one in a sea of shitty smears (unchallenged by anyone who is intending to vote Remain) is pathetic.
> 
> EDIT: The anyone above is unfair, there have been a couple of Remain posters that have criticised this crap



I haven't been following this thread much, but I think it's a shame that by page 44 some posters are still engaging in these sort of guilt-by-association attacks, given that there are total bastards on both sides of the divide. How to vote in this referendum is fundamentally a tactical question for the left, not one of principle in my opinion. I was impressed with Lindsey German's facebook post on this:



> We're less than a week before the referendum vote and the political situation is pretty grim for the left. The campaigns on both sides are dominated by the right and the racist genie is well and truly out of the bottle. Whatever the result next week that will not stop on June 24th whoever wins. Indeed I think we can guarantee more calls on Jeremy Corbyn to agree to restrictions on immigration and more Tory policies on race, Muslims on migrants.
> 
> The horrible murder of Jo Cox is not only terribly upsetting in itself, it also shows the danger of racism and fascism, and indeed of the way that those ideas can led to an escalation of individual terror and strategies of tension in society.
> 
> ...


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 17, 2016)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Much of EU law has direct effect in the UK without the need for specific national legislation. In the event that the UK leaves the EU, it will no longer be applicable.



From what I understand, there are EU 'regulations' and EU 'directives', with the second of these being implemented in national law. So in particular regards to the Working Time Directive, this would still be enforced post-referendum whatever the result. I'm not sure which regulations (in the technical EU sense of the word) would be automatically repealed, so I'm more than willing to be educated on that point.



> I also wouldn't be sanguine about the tories' ability to repeal legislation protecting workers' rights. You only have to look at the present trade union bill as proof of that.



I'm certainly not sanguine. I understand that this is what they would like to do, but bear in mind that what they are currently proposing with the (anti) trade union bill would be impose whilst we are _in_ the EU. So much for EU protection. Anyway, aren't they struggling with that bill as it stands?

Tories defeated in Lords over key plank of Trade Union Bill | LabourList

This 'proud union member' Tory just handed a victory to millions of workers


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## xenon (Jun 17, 2016)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Much of EU law has direct effect in the UK without the need for specific national legislation. In the event that the UK leaves the EU, it will no longer be applicable. I also wouldn't be sanguine about the tories' ability to repeal legislation protecting workers' rights. You only have to look at the present trade union bill as proof of that.


 Which they are doing despite us being in the EU.


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## J Ed (Jun 17, 2016)

xenon said:


> Which they are doing despite us being in the EU.



Pro-Remain people should be forced to write that after every sentence they write which it applies to.


----------



## pocketscience (Jun 17, 2016)

Yossarian said:


> I'll vote for a Lexit when Britain starts electing itself leftist governments. Until then, there's no use shifting power from Brussels to the horrible Tory cunts running the country.


You currently have two layers of "Tory" cunts in power: The Conservative Party in the UK, and the European Peoples Party in Brussels.
You now have the unique opportunity to chose to remove one of those layers, yet you want to keep the one tory so that the other is kept in check.
That's a weird logic.


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## xenon (Jun 17, 2016)

Like many people here, I have wavered. There are people I respect, not least some of you posters, here who've made good arguments for both sides.  Yeah, not exactly an original opinion. But I haven't voted on the poll. I don't vote on urban polls  as a rule. 

 Seriously fuck off with the all those minded to vote out = ukip immigrant hating crap. This is not the Daily Mail.  Likewise, a vote to remain doesn't mean you're a  Guardianista. 

 Things are going to be ugly no matter what happens in the next few months.  I am a little disgusted at the knee-jerk stuff some posters are coming out with.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 18, 2016)

J Ed said:


> the implication that DotCommunist simply hadn't thought through the issue sufficiently or that he is incapable of doing that.


I'm used to it. Out-arguing or being more eloquent than middle class people and then they look at you like you are a talking dog. Theres exceptions, sometimes. Not every member of the bourgoisie is an ignorant prick.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 18, 2016)

I've actually been trying to keep this discussion as cmrdly as possible but have not been able to. Left is as riven as right on this after all. I have never had much success in keeping an even tone though.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 18, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> I'm used to it. Out-arguing or being more eloquent than middle class people and then they look at you like you are a talking dog. Theres exceptions, sometimes. Not every member of the bourgoisie is an ignorant prick.



I'm sorry I don't understand a single word you just wrote.


----------



## J Ed (Jun 18, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> I've actually been trying to keep this discussion as cmrdly as possible but have not been able to. Left is as riven as right on this after all. I have never had much success in keeping an even tone though.



Yes, it's pretty obvious that posters that favour leave have been pretty policy focused in general when making their points. Some of the people voting to remain have been as well, but others seem to think that the best thing that they can do is to win us over by hysterically and repeatedly insulting us.


----------



## Cid (Jun 18, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> Well they certainly moved mining somewhere not here.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



As you can probably tell by that graph there was a massive decline in the use of coal.


----------



## Yossarian (Jun 18, 2016)

J Ed said:


> Yes, you know I don't even know what the point of the comment is other than an attempt at demonstrating some sort of supposed moral superiority, does Yossarian really think that he is going to win people over by comparing them to racist terrorists and David Icke? Personally what got to me about it was the implication that DotCommunist simply hadn't thought through the issue sufficiently or that he is incapable of doing that. Anyone who has actually taken the time to engage with DotCommunist, on this subject or really any other, can see that is far from the case. If I were a Remain campaign strategist this sort of knee-jerk ignorance would be causing me to tear my hair out.



I wasn't addressing DotCommunist nor calling anybody a Ukipper - it shouldn't be considered gratuitous or wildly offensive to mention that voting Leave is getting into bed with UKIP, the Johnson wing of the Conservative Party, etc. - they are the ones who have been working toward the exit vote for years, they are the ones spearheading it, they are the ones likely to benefit, and they're the ones likely to shape the aftermath of an exit. I'm no big fan of EU policies or the shitty status quo but aligning with the Eurosceptic right in the hope that a win for them can be transformed into a win for the left doesn't seem like a great strategy to me.

One bonus I'd see for Leave would be the greater possibility of an independent, socialist Scotland emerging, though it seems like polls suggest this might just be wishful thinking.


----------



## Coolfonz (Jun 18, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> Well they certainly moved mining somewhere not here.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



`They` didn't `move mining`. Coal as a source of electricity has been disappearing for decades. Even since the end of the war (WW2), especially since the discovery of such huge amounts of gas in the north sea. Export markets such as France also replaced coal fired units cf nuclear power. Are you blaming the state of British coal mining on the EU?


----------



## eoin_k (Jun 18, 2016)

Yossarian said:


> I wasn't addressing DotCommunist nor calling anybody a Ukipper - it shouldn't be considered gratuitous or wildly offensive to mention that voting Leave is getting into bed with UKIP, the Johnson wing of the Conservative Party, etc. - they are the ones who have been working toward the exit vote for years, they are the ones spearheading it, they are the ones likely to benefit, and they're the ones likely to shape the aftermath of an exit. I'm no big fan of EU policies or the shitty status quo but aligning with the Eurosceptic right in the hope that a win for them can be transformed into a win for the left doesn't seem like a great strategy to me.
> 
> One bonus I'd see for Leave would be the greater possibility of an independent, socialist Scotland emerging, though it seems like polls suggest this might just be wishful thinking.



Whereas a vote to remain is a vote in favour of the institutions that fucked over the people of Greece, Spain, and Ireland: I see your Nigel Farrage and raise you Wolfgang Schäuble. The idea that a remain vote is clearly the progressive choice is as open to question as the belief that brexit can be turned into 'a win for the left'. It's a vote for a particularly anti-democratic form of governance, with a broken financial architecture.

I'll probably vote to remain through gritted teeth, but I don't feel like I enjoy the moral high ground. It's a shit choice that we have been given.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 18, 2016)

Coolfonz said:


> `They` didn't `move mining`. Coal as a source of electricity has been disappearing for decades. Even since the end of the war (WW2), especially since the discovery of such huge amounts of gas in the north sea. Export markets such as France also replaced coal fired units cf nuclear power. Are you blaming the state of British coal mining on the EU?


What a place to end up. Vote stay.


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## Coolfonz (Jun 18, 2016)

Yossarian said:


> I wasn't addressing DotCommunist nor calling anybody a Ukipper - it shouldn't be considered gratuitous or wildly offensive to mention that voting Leave is getting into bed with UKIP, the Johnson wing of the Conservative Party, etc. - they are the ones who have been working toward the exit vote for years, they are the ones spearheading it, they are the ones likely to benefit, and they're the ones likely to shape the aftermath of an exit. I'm no big fan of EU policies or the shitty status quo but aligning with the Eurosceptic right in the hope that a win for them can be transformed into a win for the left doesn't seem like a great strategy to me.
> 
> One bonus I'd see for Leave would be the greater possibility of an independent, socialist Scotland emerging, though it seems like polls suggest this might just be wishful thinking.



Agreed. Given the size of the left in the UK, almost totally disappeared, playing such a short term game replete with so many risks, and allying oneself with the far right and the hard right really seems a poor decision.
One has to choose one's battles, and this one isn't the left's, it's a battle between the right. All over the world the right are fighting each other as their economic system fails. I can't see how aligning with the most reactionary forces going in the UK is going to help anyone.


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## butchersapron (Jun 18, 2016)

One must mustn't one.


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## butchersapron (Jun 18, 2016)

Go back to your site/info service telling rich people how to get richer. I think you were doing ok there. Here, well...


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## Coolfonz (Jun 18, 2016)

eoin_k said:


> Whereas a vote to remain is a vote in favour of the institutions that fucked over the people of Greece, Spain, and Ireland: I see your Nigel Farrage and raise you Wolfgang Schäuble. The idea that a remain vote is clearly the progressive choice is as open to question as the belief that brexit can be turned into 'a win for the left'. It's a vote for a particularly anti-democratic form of governance, with a broken financial architecture.
> 
> I'll probably vote to remain through gritted teeth, but I don't feel like I enjoy the moral high ground. It's a shit choice that we have been given.



Also quite right. There is no moral high ground I don't think. But I think economically Farage and Schauble aren't too far apart. I doubt Farage wants Greek leftists to be given debt relief, but you never know. But on social matters, such as Syrian refugees, one party the CDU admitted 1mn and another produced a really vile poster depicting them as a threat/flood etc. If the EU admitted all 4mn externally displaced Syrians - inc in Lebanon, Jordan etc - it would be around 0.7pc of the EU population.
The politics of the EU has not arrived from space, it is a result of the dominant r/w ideology in the 28 member states - including the UK - over the past 35 years. That ideology needs to be fought and I personally can't see how cutting away from the EU, which itself has a large left block including Syriza, Podemos et al, is going to help. But like you say what happened to Greece was disgusting, can't hide from that.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 18, 2016)

No moral high ground but you're not lining up with nazis.


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## butchersapron (Jun 18, 2016)

Farage demanded debt relief for Greece btw. Great series of posts.


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## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 18, 2016)

Cid said:


> As you can probably tell by that graph there was a massive decline in the use of coal.



We all know there was a decline in the use of coal thanks. The black line is the one I'm pointing out as important here though. Over 50 million tonnes of the stuff imported each year rather than extracted here in this country.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 18, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> We all know there was a decline in the use of coal thanks. The black line is the one I'm pointing out as important here though. Over 50 million tonnes of the stuff imported each year rather than extracted herein this country.


Doesn't matter. The fonz has already established it wasn't economical. So had to go.


----------



## crossthebreeze (Jun 18, 2016)

Cid said:


> As you can probably tell by that graph there was a massive decline in the use of coal.


True, but after 1980, and certainly after 1990, UK coal exports declined rapidly, but coal imports to the UK increased - though only a tiny percentage of coal imports (and other energy imports such as oil and gas) are from the EU though.  Most coal is imported from Russia, Colombia, USA, and to a lesser extent Australia and South Africa.
The free movement of capital that the EU bought with it certainly strengthened Thatcher's hand when dismantling the coal industry. part of the reason And while most of the reduction of UK coal use over the second half of the twentieth century was because of central heating rather than coal fires, gas and nuclear powered electricity, and electric and diesel rather than steam trains, the massive decline in/dismantling of other heavy and manufacturing industries in the UK - the products of which were very much still in use - which happened because of the free movement of capital and the deregulation of industry through the EU.


----------



## JuanTwoThree (Jun 18, 2016)

If Leavers don't get called closet Ukippers here then Remainers don't get to be called well-off closet neo-liberals. Toning it down all round wouldn't hurt.

I'm a Remainer.  And I'd like to set about creating a Europe that, for example, Willi Brandt (a proper Social Democrat and not a bit like Shirley and Co) would have wanted. And that's best done from within. The European left seems to think the same way: there's no real push for dismantling the EU from the left here. I also have selfish reasons like living and working in Europe and less coherent ones like the feeling that I've reached 60 without shooting or being shot at by a fellow European. I can't sustain the argument that European unity has helped me to stay alive but I can't shake the feeling that it has had something to do with it.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 18, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Doesn't matter. The fonz has already established it wasn't economical. So had to go.


Thus spake the _Marktvolk._


----------



## brogdale (Jun 18, 2016)

JuanTwoThree said:


> If Leavers don't get called closet Ukippers here then Remainers don't get to be called well-off closet neo-liberals. Toning it down all round wouldn't hurt.


Er...the 16.6% have also had some pretty unpleasant flak thrown.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 18, 2016)

What influence does brandt have today? The sort written out constitutionally.


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## weltweit (Jun 18, 2016)

eoin_k said:


> .. I'll probably vote to remain through gritted teeth, but I don't feel like I enjoy the moral high ground. It's a shit choice that we have been given.


I am not sure, among thoughtful voters, there is a moral high ground on either side of the campaign.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 18, 2016)

Thoughtful voters.


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## Coolfonz (Jun 18, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Doesn't matter. The fonz has already established it wasn't economical. So had to go.


Not the case is it. It's a lot more complex than that if you are talking about the coal industry specifically. In the UK, the EU or globally. But judging by the tone of your posts you're just up for a barney.
On Farage etc, I really don't think his or Ukip's economic policies are to be trusted, or would be in any way beneficial to people in the UK. Just my 2ps worth.


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## brogdale (Jun 18, 2016)

Voters.


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## Coolfonz (Jun 18, 2016)

Just for clarity, I don't see anyone on Urban as a closet Ukipper or anything, whatever way you vote. I think everyone here is generally very sound.


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## butchersapron (Jun 18, 2016)

Coolfonz said:


> Not the case is it. It's a lot more complex than that if you are talking about the coal industry specifically. In the UK, the EU or globally. But judging by the tone of your posts you're just up for a barney.
> On Farage etc, I really don't think his or Ukip's economic policies are to be trusted, or would be in any way beneficial to people in the UK. Just my 2ps worth.


Thatcher was right. To disagree is just to want a fight. Vote stay for more of this.

Damn right I'd want to fight such logic. Then and now.


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## butchersapron (Jun 18, 2016)

The miners were wrong to strike. But at least you're not lining up with nazis.


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## eoin_k (Jun 18, 2016)

Coolfonz said:


> ... Greek leftists to be given debt relief...


 There seem to be three problems with this remark. First, it ignores the fact that the Eurozone effectively created the debt. Greece had a low level of private debt until monetary union turned Europe's periphery into the natural place for German banks to invest trade surpluses. Second 'Leftists' only came into the equation because of a failure to offer the old parties a settlement the Greek people could live with: PASOK and New Democracy wouldn't have received debt relief either. Third it ignores how liability for unsecured loans from French and German banks have been transferred to the Greek state. This goes well beyond a failure to provide debt relief.


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## Coolfonz (Jun 18, 2016)

Thatcher wasn't right about coal mining. Then or now or at any time. I think you are putting words in my mouth there. And the miners were right to strike. As were other supporting workers.

To run through the last 35 years of the coal industry would be a bit of a sidetrack. You can note that all over the EU coal mining has been phased out, largely as a result of environmental concerns (eg: no production at all in France apart from scrap) but in the UK the Tories used changes in energy policy to brutally assault working people and trade unions. When the industry declined in France - and it is doing so in Spain right now - it was handled completely differently.

I personally don't want more neo-liberalism, (or even more libertarian economics in the UK which worries me shorter term about Brexit). I want the politics of the 28 member states to change. They are changing cf Greece, Portugal, upcoming elections in Spain, Germany. But it is a long long fight.


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## andysays (Jun 18, 2016)

JuanTwoThree said:


> If Leavers don't get called closet Ukippers here then Remainers don't get to be called well-off closet neo-liberals. Toning it down all round wouldn't hurt...



Remainers shouldn't get called well-off closet neo-liberals simply by virtue of being Remainers, but when their arguments echo those of well-off neo-liberals, closet or otherwise, I think it's valid to point that out


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## butchersapron (Jun 18, 2016)

Changing? Yes by the imposition of austerity from the left. That's the change you want. It's the only change you can get in the eu. And stop waffling.


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## Coolfonz (Jun 18, 2016)

eoin_k said:


> There seem to be three problems with this remark. First, it ignores the fact that the Eurozone effectively created the debt. Greece had a low level of private debt until monetary union turned Europe's periphery into the natural place for German banks to invest trade surpluses. Second 'Leftists' only came into the equation because of a failure to offer the old parties a settlement the Greek people could live with: PASOK and New Democracy wouldn't have received debt relief either. Third it ignores how liability for unsecured loans from French and German banks have been transferred to the Greek state. This goes well beyond a failure to provide debt relief.


Hi. Yes of course Greece should have debt relief. I agree with what you say are we at crossed wires  or have I misread something?


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## butchersapron (Jun 18, 2016)

Coolfonz said:


> Just for clarity, I don't see anyone on Urban as a closet Ukipper or anything, whatever way you vote. I think everyone here is generally very sound.


It's just everyone else. In their millions. Ugh.


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## Coolfonz (Jun 18, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Changing? Yes by the imposition of austerity from the left. That's the change you want. It's the only change you can get in the eu. And stop waffling.



Waffling  Sorry. 

Again, i don't want austerity. I don't think it makes any sense if you are a neo-liberal or _even_ a devious closet one who come on Urban to spread pro-capital propaganda. I do want the left to have power though. And I do think it's a long game, to roll back the ideology and its economic subset.


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## Coolfonz (Jun 18, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> It's just everyone else. In their millions. Ugh.


Well, I think the Ukip vote are Ukippers. And the Tory nationalist right are the Tory nationalist right, which are fairly similar. Pretty big constituency.


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## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 18, 2016)

Coolfonz said:


> Waffling  Sorry.
> 
> Again, i don't want austerity. I don't think it makes any sense if you are a neo-liberal or _even_ a devious closet one who come on Urban to spread pro-capital propaganda. I do want the left to have power though. And I do think it's a long game, to roll back the ideology and its economic subset.



How do you plan to achieve this rolling back?


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## butchersapron (Jun 18, 2016)

As I remember your suggestion was Syriza were doing great and should actually do more of their syriza stuff. That's what your eu is. That's what your power is. Power to impose austerity within and through the eu.


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## andysays (Jun 18, 2016)

Coolfonz said:


> Waffling  Sorry.
> 
> Again, i don't want austerity. I don't think it makes any sense if you are a neo-liberal or _even_ a devious closet one who come on Urban to spread pro-capital propaganda. I do want the left to have power though. And I do think it's a long game, to roll back the ideology and its economic subset.



Of course it's a long game, no one here is saying anything else.

But surely that means using every opportunity, including this referendum, to point out how globalised neo-liberal capital operates contrary to our interests. If you ignore how/why the EU is a part of that operation, you're not really playing the game very effectively.


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## Coolfonz (Jun 18, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> How do you plan to achieve this rolling back?


My ego isn't that big to think i have those kind of answers. Sadly. I think it will take collections of individuals, groups, self organisation, mass movements across Europe which may not be currently strong in the UK, but are growing. I, personally, see this as a long term thing by which I mean a half century of fighting. Just in the way the right fought long term from the mid-1970s to wreck society.


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## Pickman's model (Jun 18, 2016)

We don't have half a century


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## Coolfonz (Jun 18, 2016)

andysays said:


> Of course it's a long game, no one here is saying anything else.
> 
> But surely that means using every opportunity, including this referendum, to point out how globalised neo-liberal capital operates contrary to our interests. If you ignore how/why the EU is a part of that operation, you're not really playing the game very effectively.


I do take your point. If the UK leaves the EU I really hope you are correct. I do think the collapse of the private sector in 2008/09 (aka the financial crisis) is far more more important currently, than the structure/s of the European Union and how it/they impose laws/policy etc. The financial crisis has barely been mentioned in the campaign and I think it is completely central.


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## Coolfonz (Jun 18, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> We don't have half a century


I'm actually quite hopeful long term.


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## Coolfonz (Jun 18, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> As I remember your suggestion was Syriza were doing great and should actually do more of their syriza stuff. That's what your eu is. That's what your power is. Power to impose austerity within and through the eu.


Again, I take your point. Syriza isn't some kind of perfect party, and they made mistakes. I'm glad they and not the right are in power though.


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## butchersapron (Jun 18, 2016)

Coolfonz said:


> Again, I take your point. Syriza isn't some kind of perfect party, and they made mistakes. I'm glad they and not the right are in power though.


So are the victims of their austerity.

Capitalism or barbary folks. Writ large.


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## butchersapron (Jun 18, 2016)

This list of things you shouldn't be listened to as you've been wrong, it's getting longer each time that you post.


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## andysays (Jun 18, 2016)

Coolfonz said:


> I do take your point. If the UK leaves the EU I really hope you are correct. I do think the collapse of the private sector in 2008/09 (aka the financial crisis) is far more more important currently, than the structure/s of the European Union and how it/they impose laws/policy etc. The financial crisis has barely been mentioned in the campaign and I think it is completely central.



It's not even (just) about the result of the referendum. It's also (and realistically it's mostly) about using the fact of the referendum as an opportunity to make arguments about the nature of the problems we face, and the steps necessary to overcome them. 

Again. it's not about choosing between the EU and the 2008/09 financial crisis, but linking those things and others to get a complete picture rather than a simplistic cartoon version.


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## Coolfonz (Jun 18, 2016)

andysays said:


> It's not even (just) about the result of the referendum. It's also (and realistically it's mostly) about using the fact of the referendum as an opportunity to make arguments about the nature of the problems we face, and the steps necessary to overcome them.
> 
> Again. it's not about choosing between the EU and the 2008/09 financial crisis, but linking those things and others to get a complete picture rather than a simplistic cartoon version.


Sure thing.


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## Coolfonz (Jun 18, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> This list of things you shouldn't be listened to as you've been wrong, it's getting longer each time that you post.


What are your reasons for voting leave then?


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## butchersapron (Jun 18, 2016)

Coolfonz said:


> What are your reasons for voting leave then?


Because the nazis are. And i want to line up with them. As you clearly outlined earlier.


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## Coolfonz (Jun 18, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Because the nazis are. And i want to line up with them. As you clearly outlined earlier.



Crikey mate, I was actually asking as I'm interested. Anyway, no problem, gotta go to work.


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## butchersapron (Jun 18, 2016)

Coolfonz said:


> Crikey mate, I was actually asking as I'm interested. Anyway, no problem, gotta go to work.


If you were interested you would a) not have come in with such a stupid you'er lining up with the nazis line b) done some research - even the most basic such as reading the thread that you're posting on. But no, we get the every 4 weeks _you're all shit i'm great_ one again.

Crack on, make sure them investors are fully informed,


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 18, 2016)

Has this been discussed here yet?



> *There is an incredible theory that a Brexit won't actually happen even if the public votes for it*
> 
> A really crucial detail about the upcoming EU referendum has gone virtually unmentioned and it is probably _the_ most crucial detail:*Parliament doesn't actually have to bring Britain out of the EU if the public votes for it.*
> 
> That is because the result of June 23 referendum on Britain's EU membership is not legally binding. Instead, it is merely advisory, and, in theory, could be totally ignored by UK government.



There is an incredible theory that a Brexit won't actually happen even if the public votes for it

Is this likely or possible? 

Also how will left-wing exiters ensure that their reasons for voting leave are not drowned out by the right-wing campaign rhetoric? How will a vote to leave be used by the 'left' to undermine the establishment? My worry is that it will be drowned out. Serious questions btw and I would be grateful if someone could respond without sneering or condescension.


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## stethoscope (Jun 18, 2016)

Meh.


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## redsquirrel (Jun 18, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> Is this likely or possible?





> ...ministers could attempt to negotiate an updated EU membership deal and put it to another referendum.


If Leave does win, I don't see this unlikely at all. Look at Ireland, look at how the constitution morphed into the Lisbon Treaty.


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## bi0boy (Jun 18, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> If Leave does win, I don't see this unlikely at all. Look at Ireland, look at how the constitution morphed into the Lisbon Treaty.



I don't see it. A key leave demand is an end to the free movement of people, and I don't think the other 27 states are going to unanimously agree on any concessions there.


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## SaskiaJayne (Jun 18, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> Has this been discussed here yet?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, I must admit I thought about this a while ago & this has received some publicity that the referendum result is not legally binding. It's quite possible that even if the vote is for out the government could vote to stay in. The SNP have pointed out that if Scottish voters vote to stay in but the majority UK vote is out they will want another independence vote & so on. Either way I would guess the result will be close but if narrowly out the outers will be throwing their toys out of the pram if Lab/Tory combined vote decide to stay in but even if another General Election was held either soon or after the full term, whoever got in it would probably be unlikely to change the parliament majority of those wishing to stay in. Camo never wanted this referendum, he only agreed to it to stop tory voters voting ukip & he did not expect to get an overall majority so he did not expect it to happen. I wonder if it was deliberate to not make it legally binding just in case? So interesting times.


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## redsquirrel (Jun 18, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> And then we're seen *Yossarian* pull out the same shit on DC, and Coolfonz has been doing the same too.


(my emphasis)I'm in general agreement with you but it was Youngian not Yossarian which can out with the really out of order remark


youngian said:


> Ranting populist rage towards the EU, been quite a bit of that around lately. But yeh they're all evil lizard men.


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## stethoscope (Jun 18, 2016)

Meh.


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## J Ed (Jun 18, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> If Leave does win, I don't see this unlikely at all. Look at Ireland, look at how the constitution morphed into the Lisbon Treaty.



Not just Ireland. The Dutch and the French also rejected the Treaty establishing a Constitution for Europe which the Treaty of Lisbon later replaced.

Prior to joining the leave campaign officially Boris Johnson said that voting no might be a good idea because we would then 'get a better deal', I think it's the most likely scenario.


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## andysays (Jun 18, 2016)

SaskiaJayne said:


> Yes, I must admit I thought about this a while ago & this has received some publicity that the referendum result is not legally binding. It's quite possible that even if the vote is for out the government could vote to stay in. The SNP have pointed out that if Scottish voters vote to stay in but the majority UK vote is out they will want another independence vote & so on. Either way I would guess the result will be close but if narrowly out the outers will be throwing their toys out of the pram if Lab/Tory combined vote decide to stay in but even if another General Election was held either soon or after the full term, whoever got in it would probably be unlikely to change the parliament majority of those wishing to stay in. Camo never wanted this referendum, he only agreed to it to stop tory voters voting ukip & he did not expect to get an overall majority so he did not expect it to happen. I wonder if it was deliberate to not make it legally binding just in case? So interesting times.



We don't often have referendums in Britain, because the general assumption is that Parliament is sovereign, not the people. I'm pretty sure that they're generally regarded as advisory rather than legally binding (though I'm happy to be corrected if I'm wrong) so I wouldn't read too much into this particular one being advisory.

Cameron decided to do this, on the basis that (i) his preferred option (Remain) would win and that (ii) it would see off many of his pro-exit political opponents both within and outside the Tory party. Subsequent events have suggested he may not have got that quite right...

I still think Remain will win, but one of the few things which could make the political situation worse for Cameron and his fellow pro-Remain Tories would be to attempt to renege on a pro-Leave result in the referendum.

ETA: let's not get too tin foil hat about this, though doubtless there will be a few who do...


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## weltweit (Jun 18, 2016)

andysays said:


> .. I still think Remain will win, but one of the few things which could make the political situation worse for Cameron and his fellow pro-Remain Tories would be to attempt to renege on a pro-Leave result in the referendum.


I can't see that happening, I think if there is a leave vote (which I hope does not happen) Cameron will be out, in hours or days, and be replaced by a leave person.


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## Santino (Jun 18, 2016)

weltweit said:


> and be replaced by a leave person.


How would that happen?


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## weltweit (Jun 18, 2016)

Santino said:


> How would that happen?


Good question, I am not sure, I don't know that much about parliamentary procedure, but Brown followed Blair mid term without too much fuss didn't he? Perhaps the tories might have a leadership election, is that feasible?


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## butchersapron (Jun 18, 2016)

weltweit said:


> Good question, I am not sure, I don't know that much about parliamentary procedure, but Brown followed Blair mid term without too much fuss didn't he? Perhaps the tories might have a leadership election, is that feasible?


That's the only way. Maybe check that stuff out before posting about it happening.


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## kebabking (Jun 18, 2016)

Santino said:


> How would that happen?



the mood amongst tory MP's - both leave and remain - is that if its a 'leave' vote then only a 'leave' candidate can lead the party. the disagreement is over who, and that if its a remain vote, the leave wing think that only a leave candidate can lead the party.

i believe pretty much all tory MP's think that if its a leave vote then Cameron will have to resign by September so that a new leader can do the conference and run the leave negotiations, there are then all manner of disagreements about what happens if its a remain vote. the only thing i think pretty much all agree on is that the referendum has not been Camerons finest hour, and that the previously held wisdom that he would stay until 2019 so a new leader can be fresh and into the 2020 election while still on his/her honeymoon period is completely dead in the water.


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## andysays (Jun 18, 2016)

Santino said:


> How would that happen?



See here

Crucial para seems to be this


> _ Part 1: VOTE OF CONFIDENCE_
> 
> 4.  If a number of Members of the House of Commons, in receipt of the Conservative Whip, amounting to not less than 15% of the members of the Parliamentary Party advise the Chairman of the 1922 Committee in writing, either collectively or separately, that they wish there to be a vote of confidence in the Leader, the Chairman, without disclosing the names of any of the signatories, shall inform the Leader of the Party that a vote of confidence is to be held.



15% of 330 MPs means 50 of them is enough to force a vote of confidence...


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## mauvais (Jun 18, 2016)

Producing a vote of (no) confidence is no problem, winning it on the other hand is a lot less clear.


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## Doctor Carrot (Jun 18, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> Has this been discussed here yet?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Second this. Whilst I agree that the EU is a piece of shit for working class interests I think leaving it is a worse option. Not just for Gove etc but the fact they will have power for 4 years, possibly more if they win another election. I'm worried they'll basically sell us all off to be part of the assembly plant for China's and India's middle classes, that's what I hear when I hear the likes of Farage and Johnson going on about more trade deals with China.  All the talk of leaving for left wing reasons seems to be just amongst ourselves and is no where in the main public discourse. I think leaving will weaken Corbyn, again not because I think he's some saviour it's just he's the nearest to my political leanings and he's actually in a position, or at least has the best chance I've ever seen in my life time, to actually doing something to at least punch a hole in the consensu that's existed for my entire life.  

So with all that in mind can someone please point out, without sneery condescending if possible, why I should vote leave.


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## littlebabyjesus (Jun 18, 2016)

Of course, Osborne also wants to sell the UK off to China, but I totally agree with the above. My specific question would be 'how does a vote 'leave' help in the fight against austerity?'


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## SaskiaJayne (Jun 18, 2016)

I think the 'Lexit' theory is along the lines of... After a brexit vote the Tory party tears itself apart for a bit & when the next GE is called, a Corbyn led Labour gov gets in with a socialist agenda of social house building, rent control & stronger employment law. As was alluded to earlier in this or another thread, in or out is a choice between a plate of boiled shit or fried shit.


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## Miss-Shelf (Jun 18, 2016)

OMG I am at a friend's house.  A good friend.   A socialist leaning friend.   A friend who is kindness personified.	 A friend who is a friend to everyone regardless of religion or class or nationality or ethnicity.	One if those great sorts if friends. 

And she's going to vote LEAVE as she thinks we can get our country " back " and do a better job without Europe


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## Mr Moose (Jun 18, 2016)

SaskiaJayne said:


> I think the 'Lexit' theory is along the lines of... After a brexit vote the Tory party tears itself apart for a bit & when the next GE is called, a Corbyn led Labour gov gets in with a socialist agenda of social house building, rent control & stronger employment law. As was alluded to earlier in this or another thread, in or out is a choice between a plate of boiled shit or fried shit.



I think it's an incorrect prediction too. Vote leave and it's a pretty seamless transition to team Bojo from unpopular Cameron. The point of UKIP disappears and those Tories who went there will return to a populist winning Tory party. Result they win huge next election, really huge taking the Tory and all other conservative/nationalist vote.

Remain and the Tory party implodes. Bojo ousts Dave in a bloody confrontation inspired by leaver anger. However the Tories will tear apart completely if they try to campaign to take us out despite the result. Consequence is that they haemorrhage support and MPs to UKIP who stand to take us out at the next GE.

It's the latter Labour can take advantage of on a reform the EU from within/anti-austerity platform.


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## crossthebreeze (Jun 18, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Of course, Osborne also wants to sell the UK off to China, but I totally agree with the above. My specific question would be 'how does a vote 'leave' help in the fight against austerity?'


Because organised labour, communities in struggle, social movements etc can more easily effect change if they are only having to fight the UK government for change, rather than the UK government plus the EU and convincing all the governments of the EU countries that a change needs to happen.
Because staying in the EU might mean the UK has to ratify a renegotiated  TTIP, which would basically mean the end of the NHS in its current form.
Because the EU is pro austerity (look at Italy or Greece).  And the choice the Tories are giving us is austerity in the EU or austerity out of the EU.
Because new policies and arrangements would have to be put in place by the government about many things - so pressure by organised labour and social movements could get some wins (although the Tories will of course implement austerity and general shitness unless they implode), and if a Tory implosion does happens Labour would hopefully make some marginally less shit choices.

Of course the risk is that the far right and racists are emboldened by a vote to leave, and that organised labour and other struggles don't win any fights, and that the Tories don't implode, and that a recession happens giving them more of an excuse to implement worse austerity, and that in the short term we end up in a much shitter place.

Which is why i'm leaning towards spoiling my ballot.


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## realitybites (Jun 18, 2016)

SaskiaJayne said:


> I think the 'Lexit' theory is along the lines of... After a brexit vote the Tory party tears itself apart for a bit & when the next GE is called, a Corbyn led Labour gov gets in with a socialist agenda of social house building, rent control & stronger employment law...



I agree, the Tories have moved too central for my liking, I can see what they're doing, trying to be the people's party and address the needs of the disgruntled new labor. If we vote out, Farage and the others bring in a harder right, mainstream Tories take a knock and the left/right political scale establishes itself once again. If this happens, at the next election there's a chance of a big swing towards JC.. Projective forecasting is my only justification for voting for the boys from the Brexit stuff


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## butchersapron (Jun 18, 2016)

Fortress Europe. To show the anti immigrants.

A bigger ukip.


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## Mr Moose (Jun 18, 2016)

realitybites said:


> I agree, the Tories have moved too central for my liking, I can see what they're doing, trying to be the people's party and address the needs of the disgruntled new labor. If we vote out, Farage and the others bring in a harder right, mainstream Tories take a knock and the left/right political scale establishes itself once again. If this happens, at the next election there's a chance of a big swing towards JC.. Projective forecasting is my only justification for voting for the boys from the Brexit stuff



Not going to happen imo. Leave vote is a rout of the left and all forms of progressive wishy washy thinking. You'd have to hope Osbourne was correct on the economy for quick a swing back to the left.

More likely is that people continue to get shafted in the jobs and housing market and we get ever more populist and harsh policies to satisfy a belligerently nationalist tendency.


----------



## binka (Jun 18, 2016)

J Ed said:


> Yes, you know I don't even know what the point of the comment is other than an attempt at demonstrating some sort of supposed moral superiority, does Yossarian really think that he is going to win people over by comparing them to racist terrorists and David Icke? Personally what got to me about it was the implication that DotCommunist simply hadn't thought through the issue sufficiently or that he is incapable of doing that. Anyone who has actually taken the time to engage with DotCommunist, on this subject or really any other, can see that is far from the case. If I were a Remain campaign strategist this sort of knee-jerk ignorance would be causing me to tear my hair out.


Your comment above reminded me of an image a friend of mine shared on facebook the other day:







I pointed out a house price crash would suit me just fine


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## crossthebreeze (Jun 18, 2016)

Immigration is the other reason why i'm abstaining.

Don't want to vote for Fortress Europe which is keeping refugees in miserably run internment camps then shipping them back to Turkey (which they call a "safe country"!).  Free movement has always been about free movement of people as labour not people as people.  Brexit might mean that France stops hosting the UK border posts, so the UK would have to either allow refugees to enter Britain legally and apply for asylum at the actual border, or apply for asylum outside of the country.  While I don't think the UK is going to get a humane asylum policy any time soon, at least the government will have to take responsibility for it, rather than passing the buck to the EU/Greece/Italy/Turkey, and there's more opportunity for struggles and solidarity efforts from within the UK to make an impact on policy.  There is always a chance that migration policy might also become fairer to people from settled communities from outside the EU.

But I don't want to vote for Little Britain either.  I live and work in an area of high EU immigration.  I think most of the Greek/Spanish/French/Portuguese/Polish/German people I know will be ok post Brexit (most have skilled trades or professions or are studying so would probably get points to stay anyway, and most don't have families here).  But I'm also neighbours with a lot of Roma/Romani people form Slovakia, Czech Republic, and to a lesser extent Romania.  As far as I can gather, lots of the adults have either casualised warehouse/factory/cleaning jobs and/or do self employment of one sort or another  (some of it very marginal) - i don't think many of them will be winners in any points-based system.  They are mostly here trying to avoid racist violence and discrimination in their countries - and their kids are guaranteed an education here whereas in Czech Republic, Slovakia and Romania education for Roma children and young people is really poor.  I've been working with some of the Roma/Romani children, young people, and parents/grandparents (mostly mothers) recently, and have been finding it a really positive experience.  I can't vote to effectively deport those kids, or any of my neighbours.  I also worry that racism will increase for various reasons in the immediate aftermath of Brexit.


----------



## gosub (Jun 18, 2016)

Mr Moose said:


> Not going to happen imo. Leave vote is a rout of the left and all forms of progressive wishy washy thinking. You'd have to hope Osbourne was correct on the economy for quick a swing back to the left.
> 
> More likely is that people continue to get shafted in the jobs and housing market and we get ever more populist and harsh policies to satisfy a belligerently nationalist tendency.



They discussed Mr Osbourne's correctness on the Daily Politics on Wednesday (first half hour).


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jun 18, 2016)

crossthebreeze said:


> Don't want to vote for Fortress Europe which is keeping refugees in miserably run internment camps then shipping them back to Turkey (which they call a "safe country"!).  Free movement has always been about free movement of people as labour not people as people.  Brexit might mean that France stops hosting the UK border posts, so the UK would have to either allow refugees to enter Britain legally and apply for asylum at the actual border, or apply for asylum outside of the country.  While I don't think the UK is going to get a humane asylum policy any time soon, at least the government will have to take responsibility for it, rather than passing the buck to the EU/Greece/Italy/Turkey, and there's more opportunity for struggles and solidarity efforts from within the UK to make an impact on policy.  There is always a chance that migration policy might also become fairer to people from settled communities from outside the EU.


EU migration policy might be (is) a complete disgrace, but Brexit will definitely not make it any better and probably make it worse. Domestic policy will get generally harsher as anti-immigration forces will have gotten a boost. It will also make threats by other EU countries to leave if EU policy doesn't get harsher more believable.


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## littlebabyjesus (Jun 18, 2016)

crossthebreeze said:


> Because organised labour, communities in struggle, social movements etc can more easily effect change if they are only having to fight the UK government for change, rather than the UK government plus the EU and convincing all the governments of the EU countries that a change needs to happen.
> Because staying in the EU might mean the UK has to ratify a renegotiated  TTIP, which would basically mean the end of the NHS in its current form.
> Because the EU is pro austerity (look at Italy or Greece).  And the choice the Tories are giving us is austerity in the EU or austerity out of the EU.
> Because new policies and arrangements would have to be put in place by the government about many things - so pressure by organised labour and social movements could get some wins (although the Tories will of course implement austerity and general shitness unless they implode), and if a Tory implosion does happens Labour would hopefully make some marginally less shit choices.
> ...



UK isn't part of the euro. Yet to see any argument that shows how the eu forced UK into austerity.  Osborne cameron etc were coming in their pants at the idea of doing it.


----------



## D'wards (Jun 18, 2016)

Whatever the polls say you can whack another few points on the brexit percentage - bound to be a load of "Shy Brexitiers" about.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 18, 2016)

binka said:


> Your comment above reminded me of an image a friend of mine shared on facebook the other day:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


when you go on holiday. My holibobs will be camber sands. Think I might get a cheap spain trip but other than that


littlebabyjesus said:


> UK isn't part of the euro. Yet to see any argument that shows how the eu forced UK into austerity.  Osborne cameron etc were coming in their pants at the idea of doing it.


they are part of the architecture that madates austerity over the face of evidence that it just fucks things up worse? the whole 'but the tories!' argument seems to be predicated on the idea that the EU holds them back. It clearly fucking doesn't, not at all, else we wouldn't be here now with me having a 5 week wait for a doctors appmnt cos of the health and social care act 2012.
These aren't monsters being held back by the EU. They really aren't. They're complicit and active in the project


----------



## redsquirrel (Jun 18, 2016)

binka said:


> Your comment above reminded me of an image a friend of mine shared on facebook the other day:
> I pointed out a house price crash would suit me just fine


They really don't see the connection between this type of shit and why people are voting leave do they. You mean after the AV ref, the Scottish Ref and the rise of UKIP you'd think that at least some liberals might have grasped the idea that calling the people you are trying to win over thick, racists might just possibly not be a great campaigning strategy.


----------



## binka (Jun 18, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> They really don't see the connection between this type of shit and why people are voting leave do they. You mean after the AV ref, the Scottish Ref and the rise of UKIP you'd think that at least some liberals might have grasped the idea that calling the people you are trying to win over thick, racists might just possibly not be a great campaigning strategy.


I've been getting really wound up by the constant sneering by liberal remainers who are no better informed than the people they consider thick proles. Being smug is bad enough but being that smug when you don't really know what you're talking about is just too much. 

Asked a teacher friend who is anti-cuts and pro-corbyn (but has been posting pics like the one above to fb) why theyd support an organisation that is so opposed to their own view and she had no idea how to respond. Couldn't compute the idea that there may be an anti-eu position that isn't about thickoes hating immigrants.


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## TheHoodedClaw (Jun 18, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> They really don't see the connection between this type of shit and why people are voting leave do they. You mean after the AV ref, the Scottish Ref and the rise of UKIP you'd think that at least some liberals might have grasped the idea that calling the people you are trying to win over thick, racists might just possibly not be a great campaigning strategy.



Same goes for some posters on here - how can we teach those less enlightened what their place is in <insert theory> for their ultimate betterment


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jun 19, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> they are part of the architecture that madates austerity over the face of evidence that it just fucks things up worse? the whole 'but the tories!' argument seems to be predicated on the idea that the EU holds them back. It clearly fucking doesn't, not at all, else we wouldn't be here now with me having a 5 week wait for a doctors appmnt cos of the health and social care act 2012.
> These aren't monsters being held back by the EU. They really aren't. They're complicit and active in the project


Yep, they are complicit and active in the project, a project that didn't require the EU. They will continue to be so, and with nobs on, following an exit from the eu.

But you're wrong on a technicality. The Uk is outside the eurozone. The EU does not mandate austerity for the UK. The UK are not just complicit in the project of austerity. They are its cheerleaders. By choice.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 19, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> But you're wrong on a technicality. The Uk is outside the eurozone. The EU does not mandate austerity for the UK. The UK are not just complicit in the project of austerity. They are its cheerleaders. By choice.


and should we remain maynard keynes comes out and gives us all a balloon? nah.


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## rutabowa (Jun 19, 2016)

binka said:


> I've been getting really wound up by the constant sneering by liberal remainers who are no better informed than the people they consider thick proles. Being smug is bad enough but being that smug when you don't really know what you're talking about is just too much.
> 
> Asked a teacher friend who is anti-cuts and pro-corbyn (but has been posting pics like the one above to fb) why theyd support an organisation that is so opposed to their own view and she had no idea how to respond. Couldn't compute the idea that there may be an anti-eu position that isn't about thickoes hating immigrants.


yes definitely. i actually want to remain, so it is really fruatrating seeing people reposting these dumb patronising remain campaign memes and calling people "thick racists"... because if they irritate me, who has decided to vote remain already, then what effect will they have on undecideds?


----------



## rutabowa (Jun 19, 2016)

although both sides' campaign strategy seems to have been "shoot yiurself in the foot as often as possible" ha


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## brogdale (Jun 19, 2016)

rutabowa said:


> yes definitely. i actually want to remain, so it is really fruatrating seeing people reposting these dumb patronising remain campaign memes and calling people "thick racists"... because if they irritate me, who has decided to vote remain already, then what effect will they have on undecideds?


Doubt stuff like this will have much impact on the decision making of the D/Ks...if they're still undecided at this point, they're unlikely to have very strong views either way and, as such, are more likely to be swayed by 'pragmatic' economic considerations.


----------



## rutabowa (Jun 19, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Doubt stuff like this will have much impact on the decision making of the D/Ks...if they're still undecided at this point, they're unlikely to have very strong views either way and, as such, are more likely to be swayed by 'pragmatic' economic considerations.


well i don't know. and you don't either! i only know how they make ME feel.


----------



## weltweit (Jun 19, 2016)

rutabowa said:


> yes definitely. i actually want to remain, so it is really fruatrating seeing people reposting these dumb patronising remain campaign memes and calling people "thick racists"... because if they irritate me, who has decided to vote remain already, then what effect will they have on undecideds?


But some leavers are "anti-immigration" do you feel the remain campaign should abandon arguments against them? Or abandon making noises to remind other leave voters the company they are keeping?


----------



## brogdale (Jun 19, 2016)

rutabowa said:


> well i don't know. and you don't either! i only know how they make ME feel.


OK, but you did ask.


----------



## Wookey (Jun 19, 2016)

gosub said:


> Again you conflate EU with Single Market, but that is getting tedious.  Somebody else said yesterday that they were frustrated that there is no consensus on what Leave would look like, that is because its down to the sovereign will of small majority parliament, and what you have among the politicians is one eye on the flim flam for the stalls they want to set out for that.  That there is a only a small majority is probably one of the reasons we are having this referendum, and it is down to us, but it also means the outcome will be a mashup and I think that is no bad thing either.
> 
> The folly of previous politicians and the mantra "ever closer Union" has leads to point where it integrates or dies (and if managed badly I concede it could well disintegrate).  As you point out the UK has a semi detached relationship with the the EU (not in EUro, not in Schengen) and if still in, after further integration, would be relegated to mad granny in the attic status. But it is for EUrope -intergrate or die.  Far better to think of the UK's membership as the stabilisers on a first bicycle.  You know they will have to be removed, and it might get a bit messy -stopping it get too messy that's back to the experts and the politicians (seems to be less overlap these days).  If we don't do it now, its not us removing the stabilisers its Mrs Merkel (or whoever her successor is) saying she doesn't need them any more. The 26 other states,stuck having a backy would have a lot more to worry about.



I love the bike metaphor, we need more of this!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 19, 2016)

kebabking said:


> the mood amongst tory MP's - both leave and remain - is that if its a 'leave' vote then only a 'leave' candidate can lead the party. the disagreement is over who, and that if its a remain vote, the leave wing think that only a leave candidate can lead the party.
> 
> i believe pretty much all tory MP's think that if its a leave vote then Cameron will have to resign by September so that a new leader can do the conference and run the leave negotiations, there are then all manner of disagreements about what happens if its a remain vote. the only thing i think pretty much all agree on is that the referendum has not been Camerons finest hour, and that the previously held wisdom that he would stay until 2019 so a new leader can be fresh and into the 2020 election while still on his/her honeymoon period is completely dead in the water.



If your theory is correct - I'm not so sure that the Tory Party are *quite* stupid enough to engage in an open civil war on the issue - then we can expect (going on previous leadership contests) some dirty fighting, and the outing of skeletons from cupboards. It'd be nice to think that the Conservatives would contribute to their own electoral demise, but...


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 19, 2016)

Doctor Carrot said:


> Second this. Whilst I agree that the EU is a piece of shit for working class interests I think leaving it is a worse option. Not just for Gove etc but the fact they will have power for 4 years, possibly more if they win another election. I'm worried they'll basically sell us all off to be part of the assembly plant for China's and India's middle classes, that's what I hear when I hear the likes of Farage and Johnson going on about more trade deals with China.  All the talk of leaving for left wing reasons seems to be just amongst ourselves and is no where in the main public discourse. I think leaving will weaken Corbyn, again not because I think he's some saviour it's just he's the nearest to my political leanings and he's actually in a position, or at least has the best chance I've ever seen in my life time, to actually doing something to at least punch a hole in the consensu that's existed for my entire life.
> 
> So with all that in mind can someone please point out, without sneery condescending if possible, why I should vote leave.



My own reasoning is fairly straightforward. Even if you set aside the right/left issues (which you shouldn't: They're fundamental), you're still left with the question "who benefits most consistently, and in greatest volume, from the current arrangement?". The answer, obviously, is those who form part of the structure that perpetuates neoliberal economic theories - and the mass social consequences that accompany them.
"But surely being a member of the EU provides protections that shield The Common Man from the worst vagaries of neoliberalism?", you ask. Well, that's *partially* the case, but those "protections" themselves are partial, and are ameliorative of symptoms caused by the same body as is doing the protection. This is an example of neoliberalism acting in its' own interest. If giving us these partial protections became onerous, those protections would be dropped quick as a flash.

This isn't to say that a Brexit UK would be "better" or "worse" than the current situation. Given the parlous state of democracy - that is, *actual*democracy, not the Parliamentary pantomime - in the UK, the likes of you and I would have a long, hard fight ahead of us to achieve improvements in political representation that had some meaning beyond voting for one Establishment prick or another every 4 or 5 years. We would be proceeding from a position where the political _status quo_ in the UK *wasn't* quite as overtly reinforced by international alliances of capital, though.


----------



## sihhi (Jun 19, 2016)

Oh I've clicked remain when it should've be exit - sums up what i feel about the process though both can go to hell.


----------



## two sheds (Jun 19, 2016)

tick them both to invalidate it - don't waste your vote!


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Jun 19, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> I'm not so sure that the Tory Party are *quite* stupid enough to engage in an open civil war on the issue


 
that.

Their urge to cling on to power usually over-rides their urge to stab each other in the back.


----------



## two sheds (Jun 19, 2016)

they've been making a good fist of it recently


----------



## mauvais (Jun 19, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> We would be proceeding from a position where the political _status quo_ in the UK *wasn't* quite as overtly reinforced by international alliances of capital, though.


Why?

More specifically, why would there be any advantage in being _subject_ to international alliances of capital than part of them, in anything other than theoretical terms?

Or to put it another way, once outside of the trading bloc, why wouldn't we as a nation be even more in hock to global capital, being as we would be a smaller force having to fight harder?


----------



## october_lost (Jun 19, 2016)

I was intially all set to vote remain，based on what I see as predomiantly a racist campaign run by pretty much every fuckwit I despise. I'm now leading towards abstaining in line with quite a few views on here; helping neoliberalism, reaffirming the economic and political centre blah blah...

Various heads at work have hinted leaving would be awful, virtually all my peers I know or at least I would guess are voting remain, and of the few leftists I know who are voting leave, they're getting serious stick.


----------



## Mr Moose (Jun 19, 2016)

october_lost said:


> I was intially all set to vote remain，based on what I see as predomiantly a racist campaign run by pretty much every fuckwit I despise. I'm now leading towards abstaining in line with quite a few views on here; helping neoliberalism, reaffirming the economic and political centre blah blah...
> 
> Various heads at work have hinted leaving would be awful, virtually all my peers I know or at least I would guess are voting remain, and of the few leftists I know who are voting leave, they're getting serious stick.



I think before abstaining you have to be sure you really couldn't care less which way the decision goes. 

For me a win for a racist campaign and the ideologues behind it is enough for me to vote remain. That's not because every voter for leave is nasty, but because they are being taken in the direction of irrational right wing politics.

So as much as there is a ton about the EU that needs the bin I can't see the outcomes as equivalent and will vote remain.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 19, 2016)

Mr Moose said:


> I think before abstaining you have to be sure you really couldn't care less which way the decision goes.


Agreed, but that can reflect a belief that the alternatives will produce the same ultimate effect, as much a simple disinterest.


----------



## Mr Moose (Jun 19, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> My own reasoning is fairly straightforward. Even if you set aside the right/left issues (which you shouldn't: They're fundamental), you're still left with the question "who benefits most consistently, and in greatest volume, from the current arrangement?". The answer, obviously, is those who form part of the structure that perpetuates neoliberal economic theories - and the mass social consequences that accompany them.
> "But surely being a member of the EU provides protections that shield The Common Man from the worst vagaries of neoliberalism?", you ask. Well, that's *partially* the case, but those "protections" themselves are partial, and are ameliorative of symptoms caused by the same body as is doing the protection. This is an example of neoliberalism acting in its' own interest. If giving us these partial protections became onerous, those protections would be dropped quick as a flash.
> 
> This isn't to say that a Brexit UK would be "better" or "worse" than the current situation. Given the parlous state of democracy - that is, *actual*democracy, not the Parliamentary pantomime - in the UK, the likes of you and I would have a long, hard fight ahead of us to achieve improvements in political representation that had some meaning beyond voting for one Establishment prick or another every 4 or 5 years. We would be proceeding from a position where the political _status quo_ in the UK *wasn't* quite as overtly reinforced by international alliances of capital, though.



I think you may look at the EU in too homogenous kind of way. It's huge site of struggle in itself where different tendencies fight. Generally for labour interests over small, but important bits of the pie. The EU's behaviour towards Greece and towards asylum goes against many of the principles of the more left and socially democratic, but post crash all are far too weak to stump up better solutions, both financially and politically.

Outside of the EU 'our' low waged high growth model is unlikely to be challenged. If we do our lendors will put us in our place and demand we reduce 'expensive' social protections. What other 'red tape' matters? So in order to make the chaos add up we will see unfettered right wing solutions around benefits and privatisation.

Leaving at this point with the deficit we have I believe will be a disaster and cements right wing protest at the heart of w class politics.


----------



## belboid (Jun 19, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Agreed, but that can reflect a belief that the alternatives will produce the same ultimate effect, as much a simple disinterest.


Well, it'll be the same ultimate effect in that ultimately, we're all going to die, but otherwise, will it buggery


----------



## brogdale (Jun 19, 2016)

belboid said:


> Well, it'll be the same ultimate effect in that ultimately, we're all going to die, but otherwise, will it buggery


Did you miss the word 'belief'? You know...the thing that you hold about some sort of socialism in one (nation) state?
It's all belief; that's all it can be.


----------



## belboid (Jun 19, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Did you miss the word 'belief'? You know...the thing that you hold about some sort of socialism in one (nation) state?
> It's all belief; that's all it can be.


No I didnt, it's just one I believe is wrong.  Pretty obviously wrong. And as for believing in socialism in one country, well, lets just leave it as 'no I dont'


----------



## brogdale (Jun 19, 2016)

belboid said:


> No I didnt, it's just one I believe is wrong.  Pretty obviously wrong. And as for believing in socialism in one country, well, lets just leave it as 'no I dont'


Well, this discussion doesn't appear to be going anywhere. 
Your antipathy towards a decision to abstain has been noticable; why on earth are you so bothered?


----------



## Coolfonz (Jun 19, 2016)

D'wards said:


> Whatever the polls say you can whack another few points on the brexit percentage - bound to be a load of "Shy Brexitiers" about.


Really? They don't seem that shy to me.


----------



## youngian (Jun 19, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> been around since italy for me. I'll drag the quotes out if you like? But by all means, do your best to paint others as unaware when to my eyes the bleatings from your quarter only started recently when the EU ref campaigns started and you realised 'holy shit they fucking hate us and might fuck us up'
> 
> you'll win anyway. Your sorts always do.


I've argued for the importance of binding Europe together for years in a pragmatic understated way. Yes the EU is boring and not sexy but that's the whole point. But I'm a total failure who has never been able to make myself heard over the populist anti-politics din that its playing with fire to break up this organisation. Which is apparently run by venal self-serving parasites forcing people to eat straight bananas or are puppets of the multinationals.

I'm not a bandwagon jumper but a long standing member of Labour Movement for Europe just like Jo Cox and I don't want to argue because my heart broke last week and I'm exhausted from pounding streets and doorsteps for weeks trying to make grown-up arguments to people whose eyes just glaze over. Don't worry the caravan will have moved on by Wednesday and a bit of contrition and cheeky chappy common sense from Boris and Farage should swing the polls your way. The populists might well get your country back on Thursday. Just show me the door and I leave in a quite dignified English way. And just to clarify I've never received a penny from the EU.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 19, 2016)

two sheds said:


> they've been making a good fist of it recently


they'll unite over common cause again soon enough. They have been an enduring political force for over a hundred years cos when the chips are down they form ranks. Its not beyond us to do the same, the rights we've won as a class came long before the EU


youngian said:


> trying to make grown-up arguments to people whose eyes just glaze over.


I wonder why people hearing your 'grown up' arguments switch off? is it because condescension and arrogance rapidly make people switch off? Or is it cos they are thick racists? so hard to tell


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 19, 2016)

"long standing member of Labour Movement for Europe just like Jo Cox"


----------



## belboid (Jun 19, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Well, this discussion doesn't appear to be going anywhere.
> Your antipathy towards a decision to abstain has been noticable; why on earth are you so bothered?


Because I think it is patently obviously crap. And you haven't made any coherent argument to suggest otherwise, sorry.  What have you said there than capital will win either way? Which is clearly true, but it will still make a significant difference to a lot of people's lives. And while capital will survive either way, it prefers one result over the other.

If it doesnt matter, why are you so bothered about anyone else being bothered?

The only person I have actually convinced so far is only going to vote remain, specifically to counterbalance my leave vote, so its been a bit of a waste of an argument really.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 19, 2016)

belboid said:


> Because I think it is patently obviously crap. And you haven't made any coherent argument to suggest otherwise, sorry.  What have you said there than capital will win either way? Which is clearly true, but it will still make a significant difference to a lot of people's lives. And while capital will survive either way, it prefers one result over the other.
> 
> If it doesnt matter, why are you so bothered about anyone else being bothered?
> 
> The only person I have actually convinced so far is only going to vote remain, specifically to counterbalance my leave vote, so its been a bit of a waste of an argument really.


OK, I'll bite....how is 'Leave' going to "_make a significant difference to a lot of people's lives_"?


----------



## toblerone3 (Jun 19, 2016)

For all of you who are influenced by the EU treatment of Greece's Anti-Austerity government in voting for Brexit, listen to Yanis Varoufakis the former Greek Finance Minister saying in an interview by Owen Jones, that although "I'd love to give Brussels a bloody nose..." he strongly believes that Britain needs to vote to stay in.  To fight for increased democracy in the EU and against the rise of the right in Central Europe.
Yanis Varoufakis: 'I'd love to give Brussels a bloody nose'


----------



## brogdale (Jun 19, 2016)

toblerone3 said:


> For all of you who are influenced by the EU treatment of Greece's Anti-Austerity government in voting for Brexit, listen to Yanis Varoufakis the former Greek Finance Minister saying in an interview by Owen Jones, that although "I'd love to give Brussels a bloody nose..." he strongly believes that Britain needs to vote to stay in.
> Yanis Varoufakis: 'I'd love to give Brussels a bloody nose'


More worryingly, he thought the same about Greece.


----------



## belboid (Jun 19, 2016)

brogdale said:


> OK, I'll bite....how is 'Leave' going to "_make a significant difference to a lot of people's lives_"?


as I said over on the 'aftermath'thread - 



belboid said:


> Every chance of an election fairly soon after the vote, as there is a strong chance that the tories tear themselves apart just enough to lose their majority. Boris couldn't get a majority to back any really radical changes - the kind the remain camp tell us will _definitely_ happen if we vote Leave - so either there'd be a slightly more right wing government in office, or it would collapse heralding a new generasl election. Dont forget, after all the other unelected PM's mentioned above, they all were pretty much continuations of what had gone before (and with both Brown and Major there were certainly calls for new elections).
> 
> Other than that, a leave vote will see a recession pretty quickly.  The 'recovery' is already so shit that it will take next to nothing to knock it over the brink, and if we vote leave, there will definitely be a shedload of companies who decide to hold off new investment while they see what happens in negotiations. As well as a small number who decide that they will simply go. Almost no way they'll be an immediate upside to counterbalance that.
> 
> ...


So, migrant workers will be even more precarious, and there wont be the increase in service provision required to accommodate them, and more people will be out of work.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 19, 2016)

belboid said:


> as I said over on the 'aftermath'thread -
> 
> 
> So, migrant workers will be even more precarious, and there wont be the increase in service provision required to accommodate them, and more people will be out of work.


That's what you're voting for?


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 19, 2016)

toblerone3 said:


> For all of you who are influenced by the EU treatment of Greece's Anti-Austerity government in voting for Brexit, listen to Yanis Varoufakis the former Greek Finance Minister saying in an interview by Owen Jones, that although "I'd love to give Brussels a bloody nose..." he strongly believes that Britain needs to vote to stay in.  To fight for increased democracy in the EU and against the rise of the right in Central Europe.
> Yanis Varoufakis: 'I'd love to give Brussels a bloody nose'


Why?


----------



## toblerone3 (Jun 19, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Why?



Because it might get you to change your mind about voting for Brexit.


----------



## NoXion (Jun 19, 2016)

So Varoufakis is saying we should stay in the EU even though he was part of a government that pretty much capitulated to the demands of the EU bureaucracy. Tell me again why we should listen to that fucking fraud?


----------



## belboid (Jun 19, 2016)

brogdale said:


> That's what you're voting for?


No, I'm voting on a (presumed/wildly guessed at) longer term basis, but if you think that is irrelevant, the likely immediate impact is as described above, and should be opposed.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 19, 2016)

NoXion said:


> So Varoufakis is saying we should stay in the EU even though he was part of a government that pretty much capitulated to the demands of the EU bureaucracy. Tell me again why we should listen to that fucking fraud?



To be fair to Varoufakis, he quit because of Syriza's capitulation.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 19, 2016)

toblerone3 said:


> Because it might get you to change your mind about voting for Brexit.


It has. Thanks.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 19, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> To be fair to Varoufakis, he quit because of Syriza's capitulation.


No he did not. That's the PR position. He wanted to capitulate differently. With him in the lead. He was a lead capitulator. Where does the memory go?


----------



## brogdale (Jun 19, 2016)

belboid said:


> No, I'm voting on a (presumed/wildly guessed at) longer term basis, but if you think that is irrelevant, the likely immediate impact is as described above, and should be opposed.


I'm beginning to appreciate why you said "_The only person I have actually convinced so far is only going to vote remain..." ._


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 19, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> No he did not. That's the PR position. He wanted to capitulate differently. With him in the lead. He was a lead capitulator. Where does the memory go?



Fair enough. The memory obviously just went with the PR version.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 19, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> Fair enough. The memory obviously just went with the PR version.


It's not just an individual thing though - i'm not having a crack at you - he and his team have worked hard to produce this image of him. And it seems to be working.


----------



## belboid (Jun 19, 2016)

brogdale said:


> I'm beginning to appreciate why you said "_The only person I have actually convinced so far is only going to vote remain..." ._


oh, I know. Longer term, there are more opportunities opened up, I believe, but the immediate result is unlikely to be great, at all.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 19, 2016)

belboid said:


> oh, I know. Longer term, there are more opportunities opened up, I believe, but the immediate result is unlikely to be great, at all.


Brilliant.
At least I know that my decision _is patently obviously crap._


----------



## sunnysidedown (Jun 19, 2016)

belboid said:


> And while capital will survive either way, it prefers one result over the other.



u wot?


----------



## belboid (Jun 19, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Brilliant.
> At least I know that my decision _is patently obviously crap._


And one you havent bothered defending, lately.  Why am I wrong?


----------



## belboid (Jun 19, 2016)

sunnysidedown said:


> u wot?


What it says. Capital will survive either way, and not even humungously differently, but it prefers overwhelmingly one result (Remain) to the other.


----------



## sunnysidedown (Jun 19, 2016)

belboid said:


> What it says. Capital will survive either way, and not even humungously differently, but it prefers overwhelmingly one result (Remain) to the other.



I understand that capitalism will continue. It was the second part of your comment I find confusing. _it prefers_?


----------



## belboid (Jun 19, 2016)

sunnysidedown said:


> I understand that capitalism will continue. It was the second part of your comment I find confusing. _it prefers_?


Yes, the IMF, Bank of England, big banks, most multinationals, etc etc, all want a Remain vote


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 19, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> It's not just an individual thing though - i'm not having a crack at you - he and his team have worked hard to produce this image of him. And it seems to be working.



What do you think of Costas Lapavitsas? I've watched a couple of interviews with him on the issue of the EU and he seems to have some interesting things to say. For example, from here:



> *You have spent most of your adult life in the UK, I believe. So, you must be as surprised as the rest of us to see this thing which we had all thought dead and buried a long time ago, namely the Labour left, revived in old and yet new form around Jeremy Corbyn. As we know, the British Labour left has a complicated and not very happy relationship with the European debates: first of all opposing entry into the Common Market, but on a rather nationalist basis, and then switching over with many of the unions and so on into supporting the European Union as a sort of battered shield against Thatcherism and the Conservative Party’s policies.*
> *Now we see this new phenomenon around Corbyn, we see some journalists like Owen Jones talking about a “Lexit,” a left-wing exit from at least the monetary union for those countries involved. Is there a chance finally, do you think, of shifting the terrain of the debate in the UK to a more healthy basis around Corbyn and the Left? Corbyn himself isn’t particularly critical of the EU but there is the referendum coming up in the UK and we all thought it would be dominated by UKIP and the right wing forces. What do you think, from a sort of insider-outsider perspective?*
> 
> I think Jeremy Corbyn represents a very hopeful development. First of all, his rise is a nice surprise, which is a very rare thing in politics. It’s good to see that the Left in Labour is not dead yet, there’s still life in it.
> ...


----------



## belboid (Jun 19, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> What do you think of Costas Lapavitsas? I've watched a couple of interviews with him on the issue of the EU and he seems to have some interesting things to say. For example, from here:


_Against the Troika _is a great book, well worth a read


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 19, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> What do you think of Costas Lapavitsas? I've watched a couple of interviews with him on the issue of the EU and he seems to have some interesting things to say. For example, from here:


He's great. He's been a great commentator (i'm not keen on the word player as he never got in the game - chucking himself in with syriza cost him his job and all his reserve) in the whole thing and his wider work about financialisation is must read stuff for anti-immigrant racists  like ourselves.


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## editor (Jun 19, 2016)

Just a reminder of how fucking daft this referendum is 



> A really crucial detail about the upcoming EU referendum has gone virtually unmentioned and it is probably _the_most crucial detail:*Parliament doesn't actually have to bring Britain out of the EU if the public votes for it.*
> 
> That is because the result of June 23 referendum on Britain's EU membership is not legally binding. Instead, it is merely advisory, and, in theory, could be totally ignored by UK government.
> 
> ...


There is an incredible theory that a Brexit won't actually happen even if the public votes for it


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## clandestino (Jun 19, 2016)

Excellent post from Billy Bragg today. 


"Staying in the EU was always going to be a hard sell to those of us on the left. The treatment of Greece and the threat of TTIP suggest that the European Unionis little more than a neo-liberal cartel. The serious lack of accountability and the ridiculous practice of moving the whole parliament from Brussels to Strasbourg make it hard to love. Jeremy Corbyn spoke for many of us when he said he was 7.5 out of 10 in favour of remaining within the EU.

Over the past few days, as the Leave campaign has begun to bang loudly on the anti-immigrant drum, my reasons for voting remain have become crystal clear. The Brexit Brigade - economic libertarians all - have promised that Britain's exit will be no pain and all gain, with no regard of the consequences for those at the bottom of the pile if their economic wishful thinking is wrong. They have no qualms about blaming the working class for all societies ills in the same manner they have scapegoated the immigrants

I have friends on the left who have made a socialist case for voting Leave and, while I understand their arguments, I have wondered how they can share a political platform with Johnson, Gove, Patel, Farage et al. Since Thursday, however, I feel that none of us on the left can be in any doubt who will be emboldened by a victory for Leave. I have spent all my political life fighting against people like Thomas Mair, who, by shouting 'Independence for Britain' as he was arrested, clearly wanted the world to know which side he is on.

This is no longer an economic argument, of even one of national sovereignty. This is a battle for the soul of our country. If we win, we will have to work hard to address the genuine problems that mass immigration causes. We will need to build schools, hospitals and union membership. We will need to give a voice to the forgotten and the marginalised so that they can have some control over their lives and communities. And we will need to reform the EU to make it more about people and less about profits.

None of this will be possible if we vote to Leave. If the libertarians triumph, what's left of our welfare state will be sold to the highest bidder and our workplaces - the most deregulated in Europe - will be stripped of their meagre protections. The Tory Party will be reborn as shiny suited free market zealots. At the same time the forces of division will be emboldened and the lives of our fellow citizens - those who don't fit in with their warped idea of who does and who doesn't belong - will be made a misery. But if we win, then we will have momentum and the chance to utilise it while the Tories tear themselves apart over Europe.

If you are a person of the left, I urge you not to vote Leave next Thursday. If the thought of voting remain is too much to bear, I totally respect that as a principled position and ask you to consider abstaining. Better that than to have helped unleash forces that we have opposed in solidarity with one another over the past decades."


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## captainmission (Jun 19, 2016)

editor said:


> Just a reminder of how fucking daft this referendum is
> 
> 
> There is an incredible theory that a Brexit won't actually happen even if the public votes for it



With _incredible_ being the operative word there.

Any party rejecting a leave referendum victory would quickly find themselves with Lib Dem levels of support. Plus there's enough work arounds for a remain sympathetic government to technically leave the EU whilst still remaining a member of the single market- become an EEA member or Swiss style membership. Or hold a second referendum on the terms of the leave deal.


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## DotCommunist (Jun 19, 2016)

clandestino said:


> The treatment of Greece and the threat of TTIP suggest that the European Unionis little more than a neo-liberal cartel.


I think he means 'prove' rather than 'suggest'


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## captainmission (Jun 19, 2016)

clandestino said:


> Excellent post from Billy Bragg today.
> 
> 
> "Staying in the EU was always going to be a hard sell to those of us on the left. The treatment of Greece and the threat of TTIP suggest that the European Unionis little more than a neo-liberal cartel. The serious lack of accountability and the ridiculous practice of moving the whole parliament from Brussels to Strasbourg make it hard to love. Jeremy Corbyn spoke for many of us when he said he was 7.5 out of 10 in favour of remaining within the EU.
> ...



Where's the excellence here? Isn't this the same old 'if you support leave you're lining up with Farage and Johnson'?  I guess he's now got the slander of you're supporting a murderous neo-facist aswell. Is that the excellent bit?


----------



## two sheds (Jun 19, 2016)

captainmission said:


> Where's the excellence here? Isn't this the same old 'if you support leave you're lining up with Farage and Johnson'?



well 'sharing a platform with' in the same sense you could say that people voting remain are sharing a platform with Cameron. 



> I guess he's now got the slander of you're supporting a murderous neo-facist aswell. Is that the excellent bit?



where does he say that?


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## Cid (Jun 19, 2016)

two sheds said:


> well 'sharing a platform with' in the same sense you could say that people voting remain are sharing a platform with Cameron.



Bragg's probably fine with that tbh. The greasy-tongued splittist.


----------



## october_lost (Jun 19, 2016)

Mr Moose said:


> I think before abstaining you have to be sure you really couldn't care less which way the decision goes.
> 
> For me a win for a racist campaign and the ideologues behind it is enough for me to vote remain. That's not because every voter for leave is nasty, but because they are being taken in the direction of irrational right wing politics.


One of my many criticisms of parliamentary politics is that people aren't voting 'for' but 'against' something, exactly like that quote from Douglas Adams about the wrong fucking lizard getting into power. Its the politics of reaction.



Mr Moose said:


> Outside of the EU 'our' low waged high growth model is unlikely to be challenged.


I think its easier for me to challenge the decision making of a local ruling class, compared to a supranational European ruling class.


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## butchersapron (Jun 19, 2016)

two sheds said:


> well 'sharing a platform with' in the same sense you could say that people voting remain are sharing a platform with Cameron.
> 
> 
> 
> where does he say that?


Where does he say that?

Sharing a platform actually means something. It's not just a term for voting in the same way as.


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## captainmission (Jun 19, 2016)

two sheds said:


> well 'sharing a platform with' in the same sense you could say that people voting remain are sharing a platform with Cameron.



Well I wouldn't say that, because it would be fantastically dishonest. 



> where does he say that?



You quite right, he didn't say it, he inferred it. Is that the excellent bit?


----------



## two sheds (Jun 19, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Where does he say that?
> 
> Sharing a platform actually means something. It's not just a term for voting in the same way as.



Yes, true.


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## two sheds (Jun 19, 2016)

captainmission said:


> You quite right, he didn't say it, he inferred it. Is that the excellent bit?



where?


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## captainmission (Jun 19, 2016)

two sheds said:


> where?





> I have friends on the left who have made a socialist case for voting Leave and, while I understand their arguments, I have wondered how they can share a political platform with Johnson, Gove, Patel, Farage et al. Since Thursday, however, I feel that none of us on the left can be in any doubt who will be emboldened by a victory for Leave. I have spent all my political life fighting against people like Thomas Mair, who, by shouting 'Independence for Britain' as he was arrested, clearly wanted the world to know which side he is on.


You're quite right again. I said support. I should have said left exit supporters are sharing a platform with (in the Braggian sense of the term), emboldening and siding with Thomas Mair.


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## butchersapron (Jun 19, 2016)

Excellent eyewitness report fro the clearly bothered Bragg. Or was it an open lie about what happened that just suited his narrative? Did no one in the paper check it?


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## two sheds (Jun 19, 2016)

well he says they will be emboldened by an exit. 

I'm querying this by the way because I don't like the way the argument has polarized. I think both sides on urban want the same thing, we are disagreeing over what the effects will be after the referendum. Nobody knows that, they are all opinions. 

There's been accusations of scaremongering on both side - I've said what I think the tories will do if we do leave, but equally people saying leave have said what they think the EU will do if we remain. We're both in unpleasant company. 

Someone was suggesting earlier on a thread that the left should sort of work out who its friends are and consolidate i.e. contract. I think that's wrong. The left needs to get the support of more people not less. 

Or we can continue with the accusations of neoliberal supporting liberal cunts against lizard shape shifters (I don't think he was being serious by the way). Ffs this is dividing the left here as much as it's dividing the tories, I was enjoying them saying what they really thought about each other.


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## butchersapron (Jun 19, 2016)

two sheds said:


> well he says they will be emboldened by an exit.
> 
> I'm querying this by the way because I don't like the way the argument has polarized. I think both sides on urban want the same thing, we are disagreeing over what the effects will be after the referendum. Nobody knows that, they are all opinions.
> 
> ...


I don't think both sides on here want the same thing at all. Hence the anger and surprise when a glimpse of what the other side really thinks comes through.


----------



## two sheds (Jun 19, 2016)

in what way?


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## butchersapron (Jun 19, 2016)

two sheds said:


> in what way?


In ways that have always been clear but only expressed via unstated cultural prejudices before. This time we've had people being quite open with this prejudice. Because this time you can openly say racist when you really mean people i don't like the look of.


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## free spirit (Jun 19, 2016)

brogdale said:


> OK, I'll bite....how is 'Leave' going to "_make a significant difference to a lot of people's lives_"?


10 year or so of economic chaos before we manage to renegotiate trade deals with Europe and most of the rest of the world could be said to "make a significant different to a lot of people's lives". Just not a positive difference.


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## butchersapron (Jun 19, 2016)

"we"


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## two sheds (Jun 19, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> In ways that have always been clear but only expressed via unstated cultural prejudices before. This time we've had people being quite open with this prejudice. Because this time you can openly say racist when you really mean people i don't like the look of.



For example Farage, also UKIP supporters?


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## butchersapron (Jun 19, 2016)

two sheds said:


> For example Farage, also UKIP supporters?


What?

On this or the other thread you have people being compared to conspiracy loons or being nazi stooges. You read them.


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## two sheds (Jun 19, 2016)

> Because this time you can openly say racist when you really mean people i don't like the look of.



Do you mean people are calling Farage and UKIP supporters racist when they really mean they don't like the look of them?


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## DotCommunist (Jun 19, 2016)

its what I mean by 'trying to keep it comradely ' Two Sheds. You've been fine on that front, appreciate yer views and all that. Others, well. Others have called me a cunt to my face basically.


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## butchersapron (Jun 19, 2016)

two sheds said:


> Do you mean people are calling Farage and UKIP supporters racist when they really mean they don't like the look of them?


No, i mean they're using the opp of racists like that to let fly free and without let or hindrance their own prejudices about everyone else (edit: not everyone else, just _them_ types actually) being racist.


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## two sheds (Jun 19, 2016)

opp = opportunity?

examples of that? Not necessarily individuals, but I've not noticed that on this thread (for example).


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## butchersapron (Jun 19, 2016)

two sheds said:


> opp = opportunity?
> 
> examples of that? Not necessarily individuals, but I've not noticed that on this thread (for example).


You wouldn't would you. DC/stethoscope/binka/others have been telling you on this thread and the others for days now - literally telling you to your forum face (and imagine that for the whole of your life, that's what's happening here - that belittlement, hidden or open). How have you not seen it? You've been posing in the middle of it.


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## Oisin123 (Jun 19, 2016)

My initial position, weeks ago, was abstentionist. But now I'm advocating remain for the reason that I believe the issue has decisively shifted from being about economics to that of immigration. This referendum has become a vote on whether Britain welcomes immigrants or not. Hasn't in become clear in recent days that a victory for exit is not going to encourage anti-capitalist militancy, but racism and fascism? Trying to work out which result weakens the global capitalist class the most and voting on that basis is no longer the way to approach the question of how to vote. Because as Germany in the 30s shows, a destabilised capitalist class doesn't always lead to a victory for the left. Tactically, I think it best for the far left to align with the Jo Cox-type social democrats on this vote in order both to help check the racists on Thursday but also to lay down a foundation for future united front activity against fascism.


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## butchersapron (Jun 19, 2016)

Oisin123 said:


> My initial position, weeks ago, was abstentionist. But now I'm advocating remain for the reason that I believe the issue has decisively shifted from being about economics to that of immigration. This referendum has become a vote on whether Britain welcomes immigrants or not. Hasn't in become clear in recent days that a victory for exit is not going to encourage anti-capitalist militancy, but racism and fascism? Trying to work out which result weakens the global capitalist class the most and voting on that basis is no longer the way to approach the question of how to vote. Because as Germany in the 30s shows, a destabilised capitalist class doesn't always lead to a victory for the left. Tactically, I think it best for the far left to align with the Jo Cox-type social democrats on this vote in order both to help check the racists on Thursday but also to lay down a foundation for future united front activity against fascism.


Capitalism or barbarism.

Thus, our revolutionaries. The 30s in slow motion, again. This time faster.


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## captainmission (Jun 19, 2016)

two sheds said:


> well he says they will be emboldened by an exit.
> 
> I'm querying this by the way because I don't like the way the argument has polarized. I think both sides on urban want the same thing, we are disagreeing over what the effects will be after the referendum. Nobody knows that, they are all opinions.
> 
> ...



And don't you see Bragg's piece as part of that polarization? Under the guise of commradely understanding tarring people as racist by association, unable to understand the consequences of a leave vicotry and maybe it'd be better if they just stay quiet come Thursday?


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## J Ed (Jun 19, 2016)

It's like everyone has forgotten that Bragg was a Lib Dem for ages


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## discokermit (Jun 19, 2016)

Oisin123 said:


> My initial position, weeks ago, was abstentionist. But now I'm advocating remain for the reason that I believe the issue has decisively shifted from being about economics to that of immigration. This referendum has become a vote on whether Britain welcomes immigrants or not. Hasn't in become clear in recent days that a victory for exit is not going to encourage anti-capitalist militancy, but racism and fascism? Trying to work out which result weakens the global capitalist class the most and voting on that basis is no longer the way to approach the question of how to vote. Because as Germany in the 30s shows, a destabilised capitalist class doesn't always lead to a victory for the left. Tactically, I think it best for the far left to align with the Jo Cox-type social democrats on this vote in order both to help check the racists on Thursday but also to lay down a foundation for future united front activity against fascism.


wank. sorry.


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## two sheds (Jun 19, 2016)

Yes, but the opposite side of tarring people as buying into a neoliberal agenda. It's an argument, people put both sides as strongly as they can. 

When people on urban criticize the Leave arguments and the way the campaign has been conducted they're not criticizing anyone on urban or the left, they're criticizing the way Johnson/Gove/Farage have conducted it. As I understand it.


----------



## Jeremiah18.17 (Jun 19, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Capitalism or barbarism.
> 
> Thus, our revolutionaries. The 30s in slow motion, again. This time faster.



Hmmm.  Third Period - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Or are you just playing a Poundland Socrates?


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## butchersapron (Jun 19, 2016)

Jeremiah18.17 said:


> Hmmm.  Third Period - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Or are you just playing a Poundland Socrates?


Poundland socrates.  That's where shit people who don't get real allusions go. Before they vote to leave.


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## brogdale (Jun 19, 2016)

free spirit said:


> 10 year or so of economic chaos before we manage to renegotiate trade deals with Europe and most of the rest of the world could be said to "make a significant different to a lot of people's lives". Just not a positive difference.


You do realise he's leave & I'm not, don't you?


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 19, 2016)

FUCK SHIT UP


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## two sheds (Jun 19, 2016)

captainmission said:


> And don't you see Bragg's piece as part of that polarization? Under the guise of commradely understanding tarring people as racist by association, unable to understand the consequences of a leave vicotry and maybe it'd be better if they just stay quiet come Thursday?



On reflection, though, I think I agree with you about what Bragg's saying. If it is disaffected wc people that are voting leave then it's better to align with them, if only to give a voice counter to Gove et al. 

I saw a poll that people were a lot more dissatisfied about leave not winning than about remain not winning.


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## coley (Jun 19, 2016)

"I have spent all my political life fighting against people like Thomas Mair, who, by shouting 'Independence for Britain' as he was arrested, clearly wanted the world to know which side he is on"

Aye, all of us who just want our independence back are Neo Nazis, Bragg, always the opportunistic slimy champagne socialist.


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## free spirit (Jun 19, 2016)

brogdale said:


> You do realise he's leave & I'm not, don't you?


yep


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 19, 2016)

coley said:


> "I have spent all my political life fighting against people like Thomas Mair, who, by shouting 'Independence for Britain' as he was arrested, clearly wanted the world to know which side he is on"
> 
> Aye, all of us who just want our independence back are Neo Nazis, Bragg, always the opportunistic slimy champagne socialist.


Did anyone sourced this quote yet?


----------



## fishfinger (Jun 19, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Did anyone sourced this quote yet?


Here:


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## butchersapron (Jun 19, 2016)

Not this one then?



> 'Independence for Britain' as he was arrested,



Because that looks like he or they chucked in 'independence' as a lie to spoil any vote leave campaign. Which, should, but won't, raise questions.


----------



## coley (Jun 19, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Did anyone sourced this quote yet?



Don't know, just read it and blew, just pig sick of being identified with Farage, Gove and now someone, who I suspect will prove to have a long history of mental illness!
Don't the remain lot have a problem with being identified with Cameron and Osbourne? Do they think all those on the remain side have the interests of the WC at heart. The IMF? the Tory leadership? The BoE?  The EU itself (read Germany)All institutions who have wholeheartedly embraced austerity not just in the UK but across the EU as a whole, they have 'our' interests' 'at heart' 
Bollocks!
I live in what remains a labour/WC heartland and most are voting out, fuck the vested interests of the financial services industry and the 'sneering elites'


----------



## fishfinger (Jun 19, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Not this one then?
> 
> 
> 
> Because that looks like he or they chucked in 'independence' as a lie to spoil any vote leave campaign. Which, should, but won't, raise questions.


The "independence" is definitely a change to what Mair was quoted as having said on Thursday


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## butchersapron (Jun 19, 2016)

fishfinger said:


> The "independence" is definitely a change to what Mair was quoted as having said on Thursday


It's pretty much a lie. Terrible open lie. If Bragg wrote it and the subs didn't spot it, if he didn't and they subbed it in. Piss poor. Imagine if the mail did that. I think bragg.


----------



## coley (Jun 19, 2016)

Oisin123 said:


> My initial position, weeks ago, was abstentionist. But now I'm advocating remain for the reason that I believe the issue has decisively shifted from being about economics to that of immigration. This referendum has become a vote on whether Britain welcomes immigrants or not. Hasn't in become clear in recent days that a victory for exit is not going to encourage anti-capitalist militancy, but racism and fascism? Trying to work out which result weakens the global capitalist class the most and voting on that basis is no longer the way to approach the question of how to vote. Because as Germany in the 30s shows, a destabilised capitalist class doesn't always lead to a victory for the left. Tactically,* I think it best for the far left to align with the Jo Cox-type social democrats *on this vote in order both to help check the racists on Thursday but also to lay down a foundation for future united front activity against fascism.


Just fuck right off!


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## butchersapron (Jun 19, 2016)

An excellent piece notwithstanding it's central tone setting lie.

edit: bragg


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## Ax^ (Jun 19, 2016)

coley said:


> Don't know, just read it and blew, just pig sick of being identified with Farage, Gove and now someone, who I suspect will prove to have a long history of mental illness!
> Don't the remain lot have a problem with being identified with Cameron and Osbourne? Do they think all those on the remain side have the interests of the WC at heart. The IMF? the Tory leadership? The BoE?  The EU itself (read Germany)All institutions who have wholeheartedly embraced austerity not just in the UK but across the EU as a whole, they have 'our' interests' 'at heart'
> Bollocks!
> I live in what remains a labour/WC heartland and most are voting out, fuck the vested interests of the financial services industry and the 'sneering elites'




it 5 cunts instead of the normal 2 cunts

it worse than a general election picking between 2 groups of cunts...


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 19, 2016)

So we've had the threats. We've had the appeal to thier reason. Now its outright lies. Keep it up guys, it only lost you scotland


----------



## J Ed (Jun 19, 2016)

coley said:


> Just fuck right off!



The thing about appeals like this, to line up with the 'Social Democrats', is that they aren't even that. Corbyn is a Social Democrat, these people line up with the Tories and vote through the destruction of the last remnants of our welfare state.


----------



## coley (Jun 19, 2016)

Ax^ said:


> it 5 cunts instead of the normal 2 cunts
> 
> it worse than a general election picking between 2 groups of cunts...



But one group of cunts can give us the opportunity to get rid of them at the next GE,the other group of cunts want us to be subservient to them in perpetuity!
It's a no brainer.


----------



## redsquirrel (Jun 19, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> I don't think both sides on here want the same thing at all. Hence the anger and surprise when a glimpse of what the other side really thinks comes through.


Yes, this is the fault line. On the "Aftermath" thread this shite was posted 


Jeremiah18.17 said:


> I am not sure I want to be united ever again with people who have insulted the Remain left throughout this campaign and are an alliance of Putinbots, barrel bomb apologists, Stalinists, rape apologists, fascist tolerating national Bolsheviks, not-so-closet anti-Semites, conspiracy theorists, "National Left" and "National" syndicalists.  Maybe this is an opportunity for cleaning house in the left.  Time for fitter, leaner more ideologically coherent left across the labour, TU, green and social justice movements?  There is room for some Trots to return from their British Road To Socialism/Socialism in one country heresy, and (may their secular gods help them) certain anarchists/left communists/autonomists of this parish, perhaps, but the rest of em are finished.


Ignoring the disgusting smears for the minute. Its illustrative of so much of the Remain liberal/social democratic-left thinking on two points. First of all the complete absence of the working class, its all about the "Left". Second that Left is all based on or around the Labour party. Its a continuation of the same "left" politics that has been in existing for the last 20+ years and has led nowhere.


----------



## Ax^ (Jun 19, 2016)

coley said:


> But one group of cunts can give us the opportunity to get rid of them at the next GE,the other group of cunts want us to be subservient to them in perpetuity!
> It's a no brainer.



aye but  one group has  Micheal Gove and Farage...


plus a likelyhood of giving Boris the keys to number 10


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## coley (Jun 19, 2016)

J Ed said:


> The thing about appeals like this, to line up with the 'Social Democrats', is that they aren't even that. Corbyn is a Social Democrat, these people line up with the Tories and vote through the destruction of the last remnants of our welfare state.



Real political differences have died the death throughout Europe because increasingly Joe soap came to the conclusion his or her vote was a waste of time given the European political machine, if we go back to pre EU then hopefully we will see the UKs political landscape reinvigorated, no more cushy EU posts for retired political failures, yes, Mr & Mrs Kinnock I'm talking about you!


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 19, 2016)

Jeremiah18.17 said:
			
		

> I am not sure I want to be united ever again with people who have insulted the Remain left throughout this campaign and are an alliance of Putinbots, barrel bomb apologists, Stalinists, rape apologists, fascist tolerating national Bolsheviks, not-so-closet anti-Semites, conspiracy theorists, "National Left" and "National" syndicalists. Maybe this is an opportunity for cleaning house in the left. Time for fitter, leaner more ideologically coherent left across the labour, TU, green and social justice movements? There is room for some Trots to return from their British Road To Socialism/Socialism in one country heresy, and (may their secular gods help them) certain anarchists/left communists/autonomists of this parish, perhaps, but the rest of em are finished.



No reason you ever had to in the past. This leaver managed not to.

Crack on - 'clean house'.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 19, 2016)

Ax^ said:


> aye but  one group has  Micheal Gove and Farage...
> 
> 
> plus a likelyhood of giving Boris the keys to number 10


Clearly this is the key thing to think about.


----------



## Ax^ (Jun 19, 2016)

losing the NHS on the back of a Tory decade of populist bullshit is the key thing to worry about


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## coley (Jun 19, 2016)

Ax^ said:


> aye but  one group has  Micheal Gove and Farage...
> 
> 
> plus a likelyhood of giving Boris the keys to number 10



I can live with that for a couple of years, and in truth for that couple of years It would be worth it, seeing Osbourne and Cameron put on the dole queue.
But hopefully we can rebuild something better than the neo liberal Shyte we have been forced to accept as 'normality'


----------



## J Ed (Jun 19, 2016)

Ax^ said:


> losing the NHS on the back of a Tory decade of populist bullshit is the key thing to worry about



As opposed to what?


----------



## redsquirrel (Jun 19, 2016)

two sheds said:


> When people on urban criticize the Leave arguments and the way the campaign has been conducted they're not criticizing anyone on urban or the left, they're criticizing the way Johnson/Gove/Farage have conducted it. As I understand it.


Then your understanding is wrong. Youngian said this directly to DC *after* the Cox murder


youngian said:


> Ranting populist rage towards the EU, been quite a bit of that around lately. But yeh they're all evil lizard men.



Jeremiah came out with this fucking crap


> I am not sure I want to be united ever again with people who have insulted the Remain left throughout this campaign and are an alliance of Putinbots, barrel bomb apologists, Stalinists, rape apologists, fascist tolerating national Bolsheviks, not-so-closet anti-Semites, conspiracy theorists, "National Left" and "National" syndicalists.



LBJ cam out with this crap


littlebabyjesus said:


> To be clear about what is meant by 'disrupt capital', this presumably means, among other things, economic recession and people losing their jobs. Aside from the individual hardship this entails, is that opening up possibilities for labour, or closing them off?


Arguing that those of use that are voting Leave want people to lose their jobs.

I don't see how you can have missed this shite, it's been relentless, everyday another smear.


----------



## two sheds (Jun 19, 2016)

J Ed said:


> As opposed to what?



a Tory decade of populist bullshit of course


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 19, 2016)

Ax^ said:


> losing the NHS on the back of a Tory decade of populist bullshit is the key thing to worry about


What?


----------



## coley (Jun 19, 2016)

Ax^ said:


> losing the NHS on the back of a Tory decade of populist bullshit is the key thing to worry about


Have a good look at the TIPT agreement the EU is trying to ( very secretly ) trying to negotiate, if your worried about the NHS.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 19, 2016)

Ax^ said:


> losing the NHS on the back of a Tory decade of populist bullshit is the key thing to worry about


Vote leave if you hate the NHS.

This is it. Vote leave if you hate the NHS.


----------



## Ax^ (Jun 19, 2016)

well its a simple sound bite

but whos the next pm if we leave europe

whats going to be the effect for the next 10 years


----------



## J Ed (Jun 19, 2016)

Ax^ said:


> well its a simple sound bite
> 
> but whos the next pm if we leave europe
> 
> whats going to be the effect for the next 10 years



Who is the PM now?


----------



## Biscuitician (Jun 19, 2016)

We've already lost the NHS.

The central legal tennet that compelled the Secretary of state to ensure healthcare for all citizens no longer exists. Without that the NHS only exists as a brand.

Which is not to diminish the good work of those within it.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 19, 2016)

Ax^ said:


> well its a simple sound bite
> 
> but whos the next pm if we leave europe
> 
> whats going to be the effect for the next 10 years


Oh my fucking god. Boris johnson as PM and no NHS. Next!


----------



## two sheds (Jun 19, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> Then your understanding is wrong. Youngian called DC



not sure what you mean

Eta. you edited after I'd replied - I'd have to see the original quote. 



> Jeremiah came out with this fucking crap



Yes that's out of order



> LBJ cam out with this crap
> Arguing that those of use that are voting Leave want people to lose their jobs.
> 
> I don't see how you can have missed this shite, it's been relentless, everyday another smear.



I'm not sure he said Leave want people to lose their jobs, or that that was going to be the effect.

I think those on the Leave side have been just as forthright as LBJ though. It's the nature of arguments that you notice the slurs against yourself but not those against the opposition.


----------



## J Ed (Jun 19, 2016)

Do National Bolsheviks actually exist in the UK?


----------



## Biscuitician (Jun 19, 2016)

If Boris Johnson actually becomes PM I will fucking shoot myself in the face.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 19, 2016)

Biscuitician said:


> We've already lost the NHS.
> 
> The central legal tennet that compelled the Secretary of state to ensure healthcare for all citizens no longer exists. Without that the NHS only exists as a brand.
> 
> Which is not to diminish the good work of those within it.


That might be the formal hand that signed the paper but we haven't lost the NHS. That's what class struggle - however branded - is.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 19, 2016)

J Ed said:


> Do National Bolsheviks actually exist in the UK?


No


----------



## J Ed (Jun 19, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> No



Thought not


----------



## Biscuitician (Jun 19, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> That might be the formal hand that signed the paper but we haven't lost the NHS. That's what class struggle - however branded - is.



I'm all for class struggle, but that's the position legally. If we want to make sure it's restored then yes class struggle.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 19, 2016)

two sheds said:


> not sure what you mean
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Lat time he was saying they wanted war. Literal war.


----------



## coley (Jun 19, 2016)

two sheds said:


> a Tory decade of populist bullshit of course



The remain campaign is all about protecting the financial services industry, the 'city' 
Whey, after seeing the mining, shipbuilding and steel industry ( amongst many others) decimated, I ain't about to lose any sleep if we are faced with thousands of investment banksters losing their millions,
 And before any bugger starts railing about the ordinary workers in the industry losing their jobs, thousands already have and will continue to do so irrespective of Thursdays vote.


----------



## coley (Jun 19, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Oh my fucking god. Boris johnson as PM and no NHS. Next!





butchersapron said:


> Oh my fucking god. Boris johnson as PM and no NHS. Next!


You forgot the immediate start of WW3


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 19, 2016)

Biscuitician said:


> I'm all for class struggle, but that's the position legally. If we want to make sure it's restored then yes class struggle.


Legally don't mean nothing aside from class struggle. Legal is what happens after. Rhetorically, in the sense that you saying we've already lost the NHS, we've always won it. We're winning it tonight.


----------



## two sheds (Jun 19, 2016)

And yes of course the tories have done their best to destroy the NHS from within the EU.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 19, 2016)

coley said:


> You forgot the immediate start of WW3


I think that is for some people - they've confused capital with the tories and someone they don't like  in that  battle with all evil.


----------



## Mr Moose (Jun 19, 2016)

coley said:


> The remain campaign is all about protecting the financial services industry, the 'city'
> Whey, after seeing the mining, shipbuilding and steel industry ( amongst many others) decimated, I ain't about to lose any sleep if we are faced with thousands of investment banksters losing their millions,
> And before any bugger starts railing about the ordinary workers in the industry losing their jobs, thousands already have and will continue to do so irrespective of Thursdays vote.



Just daft. You are believing their PR about how important they are. Lots of people across all walks of life believe they have a stake in continuing cooperation and trade within the EU. Are they all wrong?


----------



## coley (Jun 19, 2016)

Biscuitician said:


> If Boris Johnson actually becomes PM I will fucking shoot myself in the face.



Why? It will be entertaining  for a  few months before he has to call a GE, hopefully with a few appearances on HIGNFY
Look on the bright side.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 19, 2016)

Mr Moose said:


> Just daft. You are believing their PR about how important they are. Lots of people across all walks of life believe they have a stake in continuing cooperation and trade within the EU. Are they all wrong?


Top argument - lots of  people think like i do? Clever people who have a vested interest in what i'm saying, are they all wrong?

No they're right. They're defending  the way that they rip off everyone else.


----------



## free spirit (Jun 19, 2016)

coley said:


> Don't know, just read it and blew, just pig sick of being identified with Farage, Gove and now someone, who I suspect will prove to have a long history of mental illness!
> Don't the remain lot have a problem with being identified with Cameron and Osbourne? Do they think all those on the remain side have the interests of the WC at heart. The IMF? the Tory leadership? The BoE?  The EU itself (read Germany)All institutions who have wholeheartedly embraced austerity not just in the UK but across the EU as a whole, they have 'our' interests' 'at heart'
> Bollocks!
> I live in what remains a labour/WC heartland and most are voting out, fuck the vested interests of the financial services industry and the 'sneering elites'


remain has cameron and osbourne, but leave has similar or worse tories, plus UKIP, BNP, Britain First, EDL.

I could be wrong, but I don't think there's any fascist / far right groups supporting the remain campaign.

Make of that what you will, but it's wrong to portray both sides as being as bad as each other in that respect IMO.


----------



## Biscuitician (Jun 19, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Legally don't mean nothing aside from class struggle. Legal is what happens after. Rhetorically, in the sense that you saying we've already lost the NHS, we've always won it. We're winning it tonight.


I hope so, because since the Reform act and the creation of CCG's replacing PCT's my local surgery has gone to shit. Where it was open regular surgery hours (ie all day), it's now closed fully 50% of the time having merged with a neighbouring surgery. The manager has outside interests as well. This IMO should not be allowed: you work for the NHS, you serve the community. Or you can fuck off afaic!


----------



## redsquirrel (Jun 19, 2016)

two sheds said:


> I'm not sure he said Leave want people to lose their jobs, or that that was going to be the effect.


He's dishonestly equated 'disrupt capital' with 'cause a recession' and then said that this is the aim of myself and stethoscope, that's pretty clearly ascribing it as a motive



two sheds said:


> I think those on the Leave side have been just as forthright as LBJ though.


Where? Not on the basis of their potential vote they haven't. I've called weltweit and free spirit liberals, but's that because they are. They've specifically argued that we should stay in the EU for liberal reason. I've never argued that someone couldn't vote Remain on socialist basis (just that I think their arguments are poor).


----------



## Biscuitician (Jun 19, 2016)

coley said:


> Why? It will be entertaining  for a  few months before he has to call a GE, hopefully with a few appearances on HIGNFY
> Look on the bright side.


He's a horrible wiff waff foppish twat with a really nasty streak! 

No good can come of this! 

Why do you think he'll have to call an election? Brown didn't.


----------



## J Ed (Jun 19, 2016)

free spirit said:


> remain has cameron and osbourne, but leave has similar or worse tories, plus UKIP, BNP, Britain First, EDL.
> 
> I could be wrong, but I don't think there's any fascist / far right groups supporting the remain campaign.
> 
> Make of that what you will, but it's wrong to portray both sides as being as bad as each other in that respect IMO.



If you want to play this game then you can look at total or average misery inflicted by supporters of either side. Remain has HSBC, Goldman Sachs and the entire rest of the financial services industry.


----------



## coley (Jun 19, 2016)

Mr Moose said:


> Just daft. You are believing their PR about how important they are. Lots of people across all walks of life believe they have a stake in continuing cooperation and trade within the EU. Are they all wrong?


They are wrong in believing that continuing trade and cooperation depends on remaining  within the EU.


----------



## redsquirrel (Jun 19, 2016)

J Ed said:


> If you want to play this game then you can look at total or average misery inflicted by supporters of either side. Remain has HSBC, Goldman Sachs and the entire rest of the financial services industry.


But it also has ten Nobel Prize winning economists, who could argue with them?


----------



## gosub (Jun 19, 2016)

clandestino said:


> Excellent post from Billy Bragg today.
> 
> 
> "Staying in the EU was always going to be a hard sell to those of us on the left. The treatment of Greece and the threat of TTIP suggest that the European Unionis little more than a neo-liberal cartel. The serious lack of accountability and the ridiculous practice of moving the whole parliament from Brussels to Strasbourg make it hard to love. Jeremy Corbyn spoke for many of us when he said he was 7.5 out of 10 in favour of remaining within the EU.
> ...


I consider myself British,  predominantly coz I have a Welsh surname though have lived anywhere but (not by design)  and there is family history with rugby.  (my favorite sport,) ((until Wales had football a team I'd have gone England - such is my football comitment).  
I do remember sitting through a bollocks speech at Beautiful Days by Billy Bragg (be on record somewhere loads of surveillance) I think the motivating driver seemed to be if the BNP do Britain I'll go England... Left me cold British Lions don't play much (only really works as a hemisphere thing). But Tbf I never said anything 

I'm not doubting the worst ends of extremism and his comitment to fighting it.  But this is a choice about bigger than that.


----------



## two sheds (Jun 19, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> He's dishonestly equated 'disrupt capital' with 'cause a recession' and then said that this is the aim of myself and stethoscope, that's pretty clearly ascribing it as a motive



I didn't get that from what he said, he might turn up and clarify. 



> Where? Not on the basis of their potential vote they haven't. I've called weltweit and free spirit liberals, but's that because they are. They've specifically argued that we should stay in the EU for liberal reason. I've never argued that someone couldn't vote Remain on socialist basis (just that I think their arguments are poor).



Well Butchers' post three posts above yours for example. I'm not even saying he's wrong - but it's imputing motives as you're accusing people are doing from the other side. And several more of his  that I think were doing similar but were too cryptic for me to know for sure.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 19, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> But it also has ten Nobel Prize winning economists, who could argue with them?



Anyone who thinks the Bank of Sweden Prize is at best an offensive joke and at worst a wankfest in a neoliberal steamroom?


----------



## Ax^ (Jun 19, 2016)

with it being the 100 year of the Easter rising and other event that have happened during the period the fact  that the "Independence of Britain" can be considered in any light a slogan is quite amusing


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 19, 2016)

Ax^ said:


> with it being the 100 year of the Easter rising and other event that have happened during the period the fact  that the "Independence of Britain" can be considered in any light a slogan is quite amusing


Who used that then? Maybe you can help us with this quote that Bragg used. Or maybe you'll just repeat what you're read. Like the leavers and that right? Reading the Sun etc.


----------



## free spirit (Jun 19, 2016)

J Ed said:


> If you want to play this game then you can look at total or average misery inflicted by supporters of either side. Remain has HSBC, Goldman Sachs and the entire rest of the financial services industry.


It's not a game.

Yes the big finance companies along with pretty much all the major economic organisations are saying that leaving is economic madness. There are some aspects of their general economic analysis that I'd disagree with, such as austerity, but in this case it's so clear cut how fucking stupid an idea it is economically that we find ourselves on the same side.

So all those fascist organisations supporting the leave campaign... is that just the same thing?


----------



## coley (Jun 19, 2016)

free spirit said:


> remain has cameron and osbourne, but leave has similar or worse tories, plus UKIP, BNP, Britain First, EDL.
> 
> I could be wrong, but I don't think there's any fascist / far right groups supporting the remain campaign.
> 
> Make of that what you will, but it's wrong to portray both sides as being as bad as each other in that respect IMO.


Please clarify, your saying that the Tories and UKIP are fascist/ far right groups?


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 19, 2016)

free spirit said:


> It's not a game.


Yes. I'm about to say something v.important now.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 19, 2016)

Ax^ said:


> losing the NHS on the back of a Tory decade of populist bullshit is the key thing to worry about



every five years they dangle the NHS in front of us and claim to be its true guardians. Lansleys laid the goundwork that means its now in crises. He did this four years ago. Was no cunt watching while mass demos against were just completely ignored by the beeb et al?


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 19, 2016)

free spirit said:


> It's not a game.
> 
> Yes the big finance companies along with pretty much all the major economic organisations are saying that leaving is economic madness. There are some aspects of their general economic analysis that I'd disagree with, such as austerity, but in this case it's so clear cut how fucking stupid an idea it is economically that we find ourselves on the same side.
> 
> So all those fascist organisations supporting the leave campaign... is that just the same thing?


Excellent.

Pompous

capitalism or barbarism

you nazi


----------



## two sheds (Jun 19, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> I've called weltweit and free spirit liberals, but's that because they are. They've specifically argued that we should stay in the EU for liberal reason.



We're also back to what is meant by "liberal". I've asked this before and wasn't totally convinced because it seems to be used interchangeably with "neoliberal" which when it is I think just confuses things. 

I do occasionally wonder whether it's an urban code for "doesn't believe in violent revolution" which would itself be fair enough as long as we know that.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 19, 2016)

I'd like to have seen this logic utilised when the nazis lined up with the nazis. Or maybe not


two sheds said:


> We're also back to what is meant by "liberal". I've asked this before and wasn't totally convinced because it seems to be used interchangeably with "neoliberal" which when it is I think just confuses things.
> 
> I do occasionally wonder whether it's an urban code for "doesn't believe in violent revolution" which would itself be fair enough as long as we know that.


Too much aggressive_ just asking questions' guv _stuff now.


----------



## coley (Jun 19, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> Anyone who thinks the Bank of Sweden Prize is at best an offensive joke and at worst a wankfest in a neoliberal steamroom?


BO getting the NP for peace comes to mind can't say it enough, "sneering elites" just calm down and do what we tell you, theirs a good populace.
We have a once in a lifetime chance to shaft the bastards, don't blow it!


----------



## two sheds (Jun 19, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> I'd like to have seen this logic utilised when the nazis lined up with the nazis. Or maybe not
> 
> Too much aggressive_ just asking questions' guv _stuff now.



Well you're being fairly aggressive, too, but I've wondered this for a while. Is that in essence what a liberal is? Some people believe in violent revolution: I understand why but I disagree. Does that make me a liberal? If it does then I'm happy to discuss my reasons.


----------



## Ax^ (Jun 19, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> every five years they dangle the NHS in front of us and claim to be its true guardians. Lansleys laid the goundwork that means its now in crises. He did this four years ago. Was no cunt watching while mass demos against were just completely ignored by the beeb et al?



John Whittingdale is  pro Britexit


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 19, 2016)

two sheds said:


> Well you're being fairly aggressive, too, but I've wondered this for a while. Is that in essence what a liberal is? Some people believe in violent revolution: I understand why but I disagree. Does that make me a liberal? If it does then I'm happy to discuss my reasons.


We've done this already.  I'm not having a pop but did you read the relevant entry?


----------



## coley (Jun 20, 2016)

free spirit said:


> It's not a game.
> 
> Yes the big finance companies along with pretty much all the major economic organisations are saying that leaving is economic madness. There are some aspects of their general economic analysis that I'd disagree with, such as austerity, but in this case it's so clear cut how fucking stupid an idea it is economically that we find ourselves on the same side.
> 
> So all those fascist organisations supporting the leave campaign... is that just the same thing?



The big finance companies 'ergo banks'  were, and are continuing to be 'bailed out' by the UK and EU governments, do you think this will continue in an Independent UK? 
Note to RBS shareholders, invest in toilet paper producers now


----------



## 8ball (Jun 20, 2016)

Whichever side you choose, you will have odious bedfellows.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 20, 2016)

mauvais said:


> Why?
> 
> More specifically, why would there be any advantage in being _subject_ to international alliances of capital than part of them, in anything other than theoretical terms?
> 
> Or to put it another way, once outside of the trading bloc, why wouldn't we as a nation be even more in hock to global capital, being as we would be a smaller force having to fight harder?



Because as a mass,we'd have a better chance of changing or overcoming the current political consensus than from within a project whose _raison d'etre_ is service to capital.

For someone who used to go on about war so much, your sense of strategy seems somewhat under-developed.


----------



## coley (Jun 20, 2016)

8ball said:


> Whichever side you choose, you will have odious bedfellows.



Single beds will be the preferred option on Friday morning


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 20, 2016)

8ball said:


> Whichever side you choose, you will have odious bedfellows.


falange won't be getting a cup of tea in the morning or the use of the shower.


----------



## 8ball (Jun 20, 2016)

coley said:


> Single beds will be the preferred option on Friday morning



We're all going to be in bunk beds.  Taking shifts in them.  If we're lucky.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 20, 2016)

Mr Moose said:


> I think you may look at the EU in too homogenous kind of way. It's huge site of struggle in itself where different tendencies fight. Generally for labour interests over small, but important bits of the pie. The EU's behaviour towards Greece and towards asylum goes against many of the principles of the more left and socially democratic, but post crash all are far too weak to stump up better solutions, both financially and politically.



The "core" EU's behaviour (regardless of the attitudes of the individual nation-states making up that core) towards Greece (and in a lesser way, to Spain, Italy and Ireland) was totally predictable, given the nature of their economies. As ever, the politicians and the bankers got to believing their own PR, and the Euro-south economies buckled first because their economies were least stable. It was obvious that the ECB would seek to control the situation through managing those economies through "structural adjustments", despite the human cost. 



> Outside of the EU 'our' low waged high growth model is unlikely to be challenged. If we do our lendors will put us in our place and demand we reduce 'expensive' social protections. What other 'red tape' matters? So in order to make the chaos add up we will see unfettered right wing solutions around benefits and privatisation.
> 
> Leaving at this point with the deficit we have I believe will be a disaster and cements right wing protest at the heart of w class politics.



Staying at this point will be a disaster, and I think you give working class politics too little credit. If you're worried about the rise of a right, worry about the so-called "squeezed middle". They're the ones who usually shit their britches and listen to "strong leaders" first.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 20, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> No he did not. That's the PR position. He wanted to capitulate differently. With him in the lead. He was a lead capitulator. Where does the memory go?



Wherever the most acceptable narrative leads it,seemingly.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 20, 2016)

clandestino said:


> Excellent post from Billy Bragg today.
> 
> 
> "Staying in the EU was always going to be a hard sell to those of us on the left. The treatment of Greece and the threat of TTIP suggest that the European Unionis little more than a neo-liberal cartel. The serious lack of accountability and the ridiculous practice of moving the whole parliament from Brussels to Strasbourg make it hard to love. Jeremy Corbyn spoke for many of us when he said he was 7.5 out of 10 in favour of remaining within the EU.
> ...



If only Billy were telling us something we don't already know, in order to convince people to vote "remain", he might be some use. All that article does is recycle tropes.


----------



## eoin_k (Jun 20, 2016)

free spirit said:


> remain has cameron and osbourne, but leave has similar or worse tories, plus UKIP, BNP, Britain First, EDL.
> 
> I could be wrong, but I don't think there's any fascist / far right groups supporting the remain campaign.
> 
> Make of that what you will, but it's wrong to portray both sides as being as bad as each other in that respect IMO.



To someone who is likely to vote remain, through gritted teeth, this has all the rhetorical power of "Hitler was a vegetarian".


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 20, 2016)

You're stay? Forget your teeth, the votes count the same.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 20, 2016)

Mr Moose said:


> Just daft. You are believing their PR about how important they are. Lots of people across all walks of life believe they have a stake in continuing cooperation and trade within the EU. Are they all wrong?



That both sides have managed to fold in the interests of "people from all walks of life" into their campaigns is hardly surprising, and hardly news.
That some people misread the folded-in interests as being the primary interests is hardly surprising either, given that the media on both sides consistently attempt to mask their own interests with those of "the people".


----------



## two sheds (Jun 20, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> We've done this already.  I'm not having a pop but did you read the relevant entry?



Yes we did, and I did. The most relevant bit seems: 



> In the established party-political sense, *Liberal* is now clear enough. But *liberal* as a term of political discourse is complex. It has been under regular and heavy attack from conservative positions, where the senses of lack of restraint and lack of discipline have been brought to bear, and also the sense of a (weak and sentimental) generosity. The sense of a lack of rigour has also been drawn on in intellectual disputes. Against this kind of attack, *liberal* has often been a group term for PROGRESSIVE or RADICAL (qq.v.) opinions, and is still clear in this sense, notably in USA. But *liberal* as a pejorative term has also been widely used by socialists and especially Marxists. This use shares the conservative sense of lack of rigour and of weak and sentimental beliefs. Thus far it is interpreted by *liberals* as a familiar complaint, and there is a special edge in their reply to socialists, that they are concerned with political freedom and that socialists are not. But this masks the most serious sense of the socialist use, which is the historically accurate observation that *liberalism* is a doctrine based on INDIVIDUALIST (q.v.) theories of man and society and is thus in fundamental conflict not only with SOCIALIST (q.v.) but with most strictly SOCIAL (q.v.) theories. The further observation, that *liberalism* is the highest form of thought developed within BOURGEOIS (q.v.) society and in terms of CAPITALISM (q.v.), is also relevant, for when *liberal* is not being used as a loose swear-word, it is to this mixture of liberating and limiting ideas that it is intended to refer. *Liberalism* is then a doctrine of certain necessary kinds of freedom but also, and essentially, a doctrine of possessive individualism.



This says about "liberal" being a pejorative by socialists and Marxists.I know you (and he) feel it equates with weak and sentimental beliefs but in that sense I feel it's *just* being used as a pejorative and doesn't add any clarity to a criticism. 

All in all, I think I largely find it difficult because I'm used to criticism of "liberal" from the right, and when I see the word I think of the Oxford-dictionary style definition rather than the political one. 



> 1Willing to respect or accept behaviour or opinions different from one’s own; open to new ideas:



I see that Chomsky uses it much like you do, though, so perhaps I ought to get used to it. It just seems to be used on urban as equivalent to "neo-liberal", though, and to me there's a sizeable difference between them.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 20, 2016)

8ball said:


> Whichever side you choose, you will have odious bedfellows.



True.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 20, 2016)

two sheds said:


> Yes we did, and I did. The most relevant bit seems:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


How can i then deal with your liberal whinging?


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 20, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> True.


I don't.


----------



## 8ball (Jun 20, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> I don't.



You don't have odious bedfellows?


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 20, 2016)

8ball said:


> You don't have odious bedfellows?


Nope. What you been up to then?


----------



## two sheds (Jun 20, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> How can i then deal with your liberal whinging?



By being specific about the criticism you're making rather than just saying things like 'liberal whinging'? 

Chomsky seems quite specific when he uses the word liberal - as in 'liberal establishment' or 'liberal media'. I think on urban I've seen Cameron et al lumped in as liberals which seems to be taking it a bit far.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 20, 2016)

two sheds said:


> By being specific about the criticism you're making rather than just saying things like 'liberal whinging'?
> 
> Chomsky seems quite specific when he uses the word liberal - as in 'liberal establishment' or 'liberal media'. I think on urban I've seen Cameron et al lumped in as liberals which seems to be taking it a bit far.


I am. And have been for years. Get back _what do  you mean by liberal._ Help liberals. Get asked question again.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 20, 2016)

What dis that use of liberal tell you two sheds?


----------



## two sheds (Jun 20, 2016)

that you don't like them?


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 20, 2016)

two sheds said:


> that you don't like them?


Nothing else?


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 20, 2016)

two sheds said:


> that you don't like them?


How on earth you got that from nuanced  contextual series of definitions that williams offered i don't know. But, being one of those leave types, yeah i can.

See you from the other side.


----------



## two sheds (Jun 20, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Nothing else?



that you often get asked about what you mean by the word 'liberal' by people who see themselves as having liberal values, and that they aren't wholly satisfied with the definition you give.



butchersapron said:


> How on earth you got that from nuanced  contextual series of definitions that williams offered i don't know. But, being one of those leave types, yeah i can.



No, I got that from "Get back _what do you mean by liberal._ Help liberals. Get asked question again."



> See you from the other side.



Nope you're being too cryptic for me again.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 20, 2016)

So what are you having a problem with now?


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 20, 2016)

two sheds said:


> that you often get asked about what you mean by the word 'liberal' by people who see themselves as having liberal values, and that they aren't wholly satisfied with the definition you give.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I have given you - and other liberals - chapter and verse on why i use the term, what it means today and why it's still in play. In line with liberals across the world you repeat _but what does liberal mean?_ Fuck off.


----------



## two sheds (Jun 20, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> So what are you having a problem with now?



what "see you from the other side" means.

Also that when the word is used as a general insult it loses what value it has - it's like when Republicans talk about 'commies' - they know what they mean and I know what they mean but we don't mean the same thing.

Like I say, Chomsky uses the word as a description rather than an insult which is how I feel it should be used if you're trying to get a point across rather than just throw an insult.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 20, 2016)

two sheds said:


> what "see you from the other side" means.
> 
> Also that when the word as a general insult it loses what value it has - it's like when Republicans talk about 'commies' - they know what they mean and I know what they mean but we don't mean the same thing.
> 
> Like I say, Chomsky uses the word as a description rather than an insult which is how I feel it should be used if you're trying to get a point across rather than just throw an insult.


Your lot set a tyre burning ditch - me and people like me on the other side. A word from you on that? No. That's the other side.


----------



## two sheds (Jun 20, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Your lot set a tyre burning ditch - me and people like me on the other side. A word from you on that? No. That's the other side.



Which comes back to my other question: is what you mean by a liberal actually someone who doesn't believe in violent revolution?


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 20, 2016)

two sheds said:


> what "see you from the other side" means.
> 
> Also that when the word is used as a general insult it loses what value it has - it's like when Republicans talk about 'commies' - they know what they mean and I know what they mean but we don't mean the same thing.
> 
> Like I say, Chomsky uses the word as a description rather than an insult which is how I feel it should be used if you're trying to get a point across rather than just throw an insult.


Great well done. Of course the disgust inherent in description is impossible. Why are you focusing  on him? That makes it look like you've bothered to read the thing i tried to help you with but that you didn't.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 20, 2016)

two sheds said:


> Which comes back to my other question: is what you mean by a liberal actually someone who doesn't believe in violent revolution?


Here i link you to a contextual history of the term and then you pretend to have read it.

_Just asking questions man._


----------



## two sheds (Jun 20, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Great well done. Of course the disgust inherent in description is impossible. Why are you focusing  on him? That makes it look like you've bothered to read the thing i tried to help you with but that you didn't.



But then you're moving away from the nuanced description that Williams gave, and you're just using it as a " loose swear-word".

Focusing on him as in Chomsky? Because I respect his political analysis and the sort of society he describes is one that I'd like to live in.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 20, 2016)

two sheds said:


> But then you're moving away from the nuanced description that Williams gave, and you're just using it as a " loose swear-word".
> 
> Focusing on him as in Chomsky? Because I respect his political analysis and the sort of society he describes is one that I'd like to live in.


First off,i posted that to give you some context and history as you were after both. Not that it was worth me bothering. Secondly, my usage fits exactly with williams  definition of a soppy liberal cunt.

Chomsky because he doesn't appear in the thing that linked you to and that we were talking about. But you want to talk about him right?


----------



## two sheds (Jun 20, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Here i link you to a contextual history of the term and then you pretend to have read it.



You like calling people liars. I read it. 

_



			Just asking questions man.
		
Click to expand...

_
which you're not answering after repeated asking in this case. I presume it's because I'm close. 

I respect your political analysis when I can understand it. I don't agree with violent revolution (as I think you do) - I think *that's* why you have a hatred of liberals and think I'm going to be on the other side of the barrier. 

I mentioned Chomsky because the references I saw from him used liberal in a specific sense rather than as a general insult.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 20, 2016)

Do what?


----------



## two sheds (Jun 20, 2016)

How many?


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 20, 2016)

two sheds said:


> You like calling people liars. I read it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You're over 40 - you're not noel gallagher, you don't have to pretend to be some i don't understand nothing ape. You know damn well what political points i am making and on what basis. Why do this?


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 20, 2016)

two sheds said:


> You like calling people liars. I read it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What are you close to?

I mentioned past discussion - with you -  of the use of liberal. You've ignored it in favour of talking about something else. All very peacefully. No aggression.


----------



## two sheds (Jun 20, 2016)

How have I ignored it? I'm talking about the use of the word liberal.

I'm doing it because I think that using 'liberal' as a general insult is as useful as Republicans using 'commie' as a general insult.

And because I have a feeling that the people who use 'liberal' as a general insult are in general the same people who believe that the only way that society will change is from violent revolution (as your statement about the barriers suggest). Which is a fair view but one I don't agree with and at least if I know then I can discuss it, but while it is unstated I can't.

That's why I'm doing it. You've not convinced me that 'liberal' is worth just being an insult.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 20, 2016)

two sheds said:


> How have I ignored it? I'm talking about the use of the word liberal.
> 
> I'm doing it because I think that using 'liberal' as a general insult is as useful as Republicans using 'commie' as a general insult.
> 
> ...


By not responding on either of the threads about its use beyond empty passive aggression. Esp when you know...

Why you think you're doing this(which is to admit that you are) is the first step to recognition. It's not always everyone else being wrong.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 20, 2016)

Unstated.
Unstated.
Stated.


----------



## two sheds (Jun 20, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> By not responding on either of the threads about it's use beyond empty passive aggression.



Well I said I understood when it was used in a specific context like "liberal media", that seems a valid use of it: criticism can be "thus far and no further". I've seen no valid justification for its use as just an insult. Williams mentions it in passing and criticizes liberals but he doesn't show the hatred that you do. I don't think that hatred is healthy. 

Is that passive aggression?  



> Why you think you're doing this(which is to admit that you are) is the first step to recognition. It's not always everyone else being wrong.



Don't fully understand that. 

But I'm going to bed. 

And I do appreciate the pointing me to relevant references - it's just that if I don't agree then I'm going to say. The way you use liberal, although standard on urban, is not the usual use of the word - which is the Oxford online dictionary one that I pointed to before.


----------



## youngian (Jun 20, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> I wonder why people hearing your 'grown up' arguments switch off? is it because condescension and arrogance rapidly make people switch off? Or is it cos they are thick racists? so hard to tell



Just to clarify I'm just a foot soldier but thanks for thinking I'm one of the snobby intellectual Metropolitan elite experts. But what do they know facts can prove anything and experts built the Titanic and crashed the banks. A bit of plain common sense over a pint with Nigel will reveal the truth. Another thing I want to know about populists is why you don't step up to the plate to take power from the corrupt elites who are just in it to line their pockets and are so much more lazy and less virtuous than keyboard warriors? At least Nigel is about to next week (Boris has offered Lord Farage of Nuremberg a peerage) with the help of Lexit twats who think this referendum is just a game.


----------



## mauvais (Jun 20, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> Because as a mass,we'd have a better chance of changing or overcoming the current political consensus than from within a project whose _raison d'etre_ is service to capital.
> 
> For someone who used to go on about war so much, your sense of strategy seems somewhat under-developed.


Hence 'other than theoretical terms'. How and when? It's the skeleton of a concept, not a strategy or a route with probability attached. You could just as well argue that it'll be more effective to change the entity from within, not something I subscribe to but about as tangible.

We're back to this whole argument where fantasy positive outcomes are used to justify a stance, ignoring that there's a much higher and more tangible chance of enabling the exact opposite.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 20, 2016)

youngian said:


> Just to clarify I'm just a foot soldier but thanks for thinking I'm one of the snobby intellectual Metropolitan elite experts. But what do they know facts can prove anything and experts built the Titanic and crashed the banks. A bit of plain common sense over a pint with Nigel will reveal the truth. Another thing I want to know about populists is why you don't step up to the plate to take power from the corrupt elites who are just in it to line their pockets and are so much more lazy and less virtuous than keyboard warriors? At least Nigel is about to next week (Boris has offered Lord Farage of Nuremberg a peerage) with the help of Lexit twats who think this referendum is just a game.


you really don't like being called on your shit do you? good job you didn't knock on my door, I wouldn't have 'glazed over' like them 'sheep' who you've failed to convince. You'd have this, an argument you've lost badly by the nazi bollox and 'I'm the only one who takes it seriously'. Patronising, condescending twat


----------



## belboid (Jun 20, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> I don't.


Yes you do


----------



## Dowie (Jun 20, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> So has this whole debate now been basically lost to people just reducing it to celebs, egotistic politicians and assorted arseholes on both sides and what they have to say? Rather than what it might mean for pro-worker, pro-socialist positions whether we stay or leave. Very depressing.



that is what is really annoying me, prominent business leaders all say you should do X and they know what is best for you, this nasty person is voting Y so you shouldn't vote that way because then you'll be supporting a nasty person

apparently Baroness Warsi has switched sides over a poster - I don't really understand why a poster is relevant to the actual issues, it is surely just an unfortunate symptom of having some arseholes supporting one particular side, switching sides over a non issue like that just seems ridiculous, if you actually believe in your position the fact that some arseholes will also vote to support it (albeit for very different reasons) shouldn't be reason to change


----------



## stethoscope (Jun 20, 2016)

youngian said:


> ...
> with the help of Lexit twats who think this referendum is just a game.



You're still doing it you sneering, say nothing prick. I've not seen any of us left-leave thinking this is just a game, in fact we've been the ones putting out  arguments for why a leave on pro-working class, pro-socialist grounds should be considered. Those of us doing things in communities, for social housing, fighting against the further privatisation of services, union organising, anti-fascism, etc.

Unlike the utterly useless shit you've peddled all the way through this - 'but Farage/Gove/Boris', 'siding with the right', 'racist thickos', 'Lizards', etc. Do you have any fucking self awareness? If anyone is treating this as a  'game', its been you.

(I'm still seething about the shit that some have been doing here towards those of us who have been seriously looking at what possibilities there might be through a leave. Its really making me wonder whether to post on urban any more).


----------



## brogdale (Jun 20, 2016)

Ashcroft's last focus group post contained this gem from Totnes....


> “I usually think, if you haven’t got an opinion, don’t bother. But this is pretty big.” (Not everyone was so resolute: *“My mum always said if you don’t know what to do, don’t do anything. I’ve lived by that.” How did you vote at the general election? “Liberal Democrat.”*)


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 20, 2016)

Dowie said:


> that is what is really annoying me, prominent business leaders all say you should do X and they know what is best for you, this nasty person is voting Y so you shouldn't vote that way because then you'll be supporting a nasty person
> 
> apparently Baroness Warsi has switched sides over a poster - I don't really understand why a poster is relevant to the actual issues, it is surely just an unfortunate symptom of having some arseholes supporting one particular side, switching sides over a non issue like that just seems ridiculous, if you actually believe in your position the fact that some arseholes will also vote to support it (albeit for very different reasons) shouldn't be reason to change


You know nothing.


----------



## andysays (Jun 20, 2016)

two sheds said:


> Yes we did, and I did. The most relevant bit seems:
> 
> This says about "liberal" being a pejorative by socialists and Marxists.I know you (and he) feel it equates with weak and sentimental beliefs but in that sense I feel it's *just* being used as a pejorative and doesn't add any clarity to a criticism.
> 
> ...



This, for me, is the most relevant/significant bit for what we're discussing on this thread

"But this masks the most serious sense of the socialist use, which is the historically accurate observation that *liberalism is a doctrine based on INDIVIDUALIST theories of man and society and is thus in fundamental conflict not only with SOCIALIST but with most strictly SOCIAL theories*. The further observation, that liberalism is the highest form of thought developed within BOURGEOIS society and in terms of CAPITALISM, is also relevant, for when liberal is not being used as a loose swear-word, it is to this mixture of liberating and limiting ideas that it is intended to refer. Liberalism is then a doctrine of certain necessary kinds of freedom but also, and essentially, a doctrine of possessive individualism."

Nothing to do with believing/not believing in violent revolution...


----------



## chilango (Jun 20, 2016)

As I've mentioned somewhere I'm probably going to end up voting "Remain", but the _only_ actual argument I've heard on here (or in IRL) that has _any_ positive political content is the "Lexit" (yuk) one advanced by the likes of stethoscope, butchersapron, DotCommunist et al.


----------



## andysays (Jun 20, 2016)

youngian said:


> At least Nigel is about to next week (Boris has offered Lord Farage of Nuremberg a peerage) with the help of Lexit twats who think this referendum is just a game.



There's been some cuntish smearing comments from some Remain supporters on these threads, but I think we may now have reached peak-Remain-cunt-smear.


----------



## redsquirrel (Jun 20, 2016)

youngian said:


> Just to clarify I'm just a foot soldier but thanks for thinking I'm one of the snobby intellectual Metropolitan elite experts. But what do they know facts can prove anything and experts built the Titanic and crashed the banks. A bit of plain common sense over a pint with Nigel will reveal the truth. Another thing I want to know about populists is why you don't step up to the plate to take power from the corrupt elites who are just in it to line their pockets and are so much more lazy and less virtuous than keyboard warriors? At least Nigel is about to next week (Boris has offered Lord Farage of Nuremberg a peerage) with the help of Lexit twats who think this referendum is just a game.


You really are a prick aren't you. If you had any integrity you'd apologise to DC.


----------



## andysays (Jun 20, 2016)

belboid said:


> Yes you do



People are only "bedfellows" with other people if they're arguing for the same thing *on the same premises and with the same or similar arguments*. 

To suggest otherwise is just more of the same smearing bollocks which so many have resorted to, generally in absence of any genuine argument. Those are the real bedfellows here.


----------



## JimW (Jun 20, 2016)

I'm a Lexit twat.


----------



## Libertad (Jun 20, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> To the point, I really don't know whether to hang post on urban any more



Hold on Steth, I value your posts and would miss you. youngian is just the shit on your shoe, brush them off.


----------



## xenon (Jun 20, 2016)

youngian said:


> Just to clarify I'm just a foot soldier but thanks for thinking I'm one of the snobby intellectual Metropolitan elite experts. But what do they know facts can prove anything and experts built the Titanic and crashed the banks. A bit of plain common sense over a pint with Nigel will reveal the truth. Another thing I want to know about populists is why you don't step up to the plate to take power from the corrupt elites who are just in it to line their pockets and are so much more lazy and less virtuous than keyboard warriors? At least Nigel is about to next week (Boris has offered Lord Farage of Nuremberg a peerage) with the help of Lexit twats who think this referendum is just a game.


 you talk  of those seeing it as a game whils you come out with all this cartoon,  condescending crap.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 20, 2016)

Dowie said:


> apparently Baroness Warsi has switched sides over a poster



can't stand that one. Stealth cunt. Baroness. Think she used to be co treasurer of the tory party but cba to check cos lifes to short. She's on the damn List, thats all I need to remember


redsquirrel said:


> You really are a prick aren't you. If you had any integrity you'd apologise to DC.


not interested in one, not that he'd give one. Reeks of Progress this lad. Blairite


----------



## redsquirrel (Jun 20, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> (I'm still seething about the shit that some have been doing here towards those of us who have been seriously looking at what possibilities there might be through a leave. Its really making me wonder whether to post on urban any more).


Just wanted to echo Libertad's post. U75 would be poorer without you.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 20, 2016)

Libertad said:


> Hold on Steth, I value your posts and would miss you. youngian is just the shit on your shoe, brush them off.


agreed


----------



## two sheds (Jun 20, 2016)

andysays said:


> This, for me, is the most relevant/significant bit for what we're discussing on this thread
> 
> "But this masks the most serious sense of the socialist use, which is the historically accurate observation that *liberalism is a doctrine based on INDIVIDUALIST theories of man and society and is thus in fundamental conflict not only with SOCIALIST but with most strictly SOCIAL theories*. The further observation, that liberalism is the highest form of thought developed within BOURGEOIS society and in terms of CAPITALISM, is also relevant, for when liberal is not being used as a loose swear-word, it is to this mixture of liberating and limiting ideas that it is intended to refer. Liberalism is then a doctrine of certain necessary kinds of freedom but also, and essentially, a doctrine of possessive individualism."
> 
> Nothing to do with believing/not believing in violent revolution...



That is the sense I think Chomsky seems to use it, and is fair enough.

The difference for me is when it's used as a "loose swear word" as used on urban - in the same way that the right wing uses it. The opposite of liberal in that sense is 'illiberal' and I don't care what politics someone has if they're illiberal then I don't trust whatever system they want to put in place.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 20, 2016)

two sheds said:


> That is the sense I think Chomsky seems to use it, and is fair enough.
> 
> The difference for me is when it's used as a "loose swear word" as used on urban - in the same way that the right wing uses it. The opposite of liberal in that sense is 'illiberal' and I don't care what politics someone has if they're illiberal then I don't trust whatever system they want to put in place.


Then you're using it in the insulting sense you claim to reject - just with a +placed where others would have a minus -  rather than the rigourous politically defined one you suggest that you're using.


----------



## ffsear (Jun 20, 2016)

I think there is little doubt now that the result will be a remain.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 20, 2016)

Apart from all that doubt.


----------



## two sheds (Jun 20, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Then you're using it in the insulting sense you claim to reject - just with a +placed where others would have a minus -  rather than the rigourous politically defined one you suggest that you're using.



No, it's being used to actually get an idea across rather than just to insult people.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 20, 2016)

ffsear said:


> I think there is little doubt now that the result will be a remain.


been on the cards for months, the real question is how close

I've not seen one poll that gave exit even a marginal lead. simply very close ones


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 20, 2016)

two sheds said:


> No, it's being used to actually get an idea across rather than just to insult people.


I can't see where - certainly not in that post where. Putting forward a case that others are iliberal in the sense you think chomsky uses it would be a start on doing that - but you don't. You instead simply relegate people who use the term liberal to being something rather nasty. Whilst all sorts of open real nastiness that doesn't say liberal is going on all around you.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 20, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> been on the cards for months, the real question is how close
> 
> I've not seen one poll that gave exit even a marginal lead. simply very close ones


Apart from all those ones with leave in the lead.


----------



## andysays (Jun 20, 2016)

two sheds said:


> No, it's being used to actually get an idea across rather than just to insult people.



I think that's the way it's generally (with a few exceptions, obvs) being used on this and other threads, TBH


----------



## killer b (Jun 20, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> I've not seen one poll that gave exit even a marginal lead. simply very close ones


there's been loads.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 20, 2016)

I'll take your words for it. I'm assuming the ones indicating a leave victory are narrow results rather than slides tho?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 20, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> been on the cards for months, the real question is how close
> 
> I've not seen one poll that gave exit even a marginal lead. simply very close ones


i thought you were paying attention


----------



## Cid (Jun 20, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> been on the cards for months, the real question is how close
> 
> I've not seen one poll that gave exit even a marginal lead. simply very close ones



Summary on the FT site.


----------



## redsquirrel (Jun 20, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> I'll take your words for it. I'm assuming the ones indicating a leave victory are narrow results rather than slides tho?


Not last week, there were a number of quite large Leave leads.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 20, 2016)

I suppose this could really go in the guardian pan thread as well -  a little of bit of that unstated thornberry style:



_Do you really want these types to have a country?_


----------



## weltweit (Jun 20, 2016)

Interesting that the results so far of the poll on this thread seems to be so different from the polls that are being taken in the country. Does anyone have any idea why that might be?


----------



## redsquirrel (Jun 20, 2016)

Amazing, perhaps it's because U75 isn't representative off the UK.


----------



## weltweit (Jun 20, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> Amazing, perhaps it's because U75 isn't representative off the UK.


Obviously! but how I wonder is it different?


----------



## redsquirrel (Jun 20, 2016)

Really, you wonder that. Christ


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 20, 2016)

weltweit said:


> Obviously! but how I wonder is it different?


What is the basis on which pollsters try to carry our their work?


----------



## weltweit (Jun 20, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> What is the basis on which pollsters try to carry our their work?


Representative sampling. Which is why I ask, what does Urban's sample represent?


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 20, 2016)

weltweit said:


> Representative sampling. Which is why I ask, what does Urban's sample represent?


Small lot of pro-nazis and a lot of smug liberals. will that do?


----------



## weltweit (Jun 20, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Small lot of pro-nazis and a lot of smug liberals. will that do?


I guess it will have to.


----------



## weltweit (Jun 20, 2016)

I watched Cameron's session on QT this morning, still amazed to find people in the audience who are don't knows, this late in the game I would have thought people would at least have a leaning in or out.


----------



## Dowie (Jun 20, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> You know nothing.



ah the usual snide comment from the usual cunt


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 20, 2016)

Dowie said:


> ah the usual snide comment from the usual cunt


shall we go through it then and expose your ignorance? or would you prefer it was passed over in silence?


----------



## ffsear (Jun 20, 2016)

weltweit said:


> I watched Cameron's session on QT this morning, still amazed to find people in the audience who are don't knows, this late in the game I would have thought people would at least have a leaning in or out.




I still don't know.  I'm going to vote on Gut feeling. I'm going to hover over the leave box and ask myself if I feel like i doing the right thing here.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 20, 2016)

Dowie said:


> that is what is really annoying me, prominent business leaders all say you should do X and they know what is best for you, this nasty person is voting Y so you shouldn't vote that way because then you'll be supporting a nasty person
> 
> apparently Baroness Warsi has switched sides over a poster - I don't really understand why a poster is relevant to the actual issues, it is surely just an unfortunate symptom of having some arseholes supporting one particular side, switching sides over a non issue like that just seems ridiculous, if you actually believe in your position the fact that some arseholes will also vote to support it (albeit for very different reasons) shouldn't be reason to change


warsi said she left because of the xenophobia of the leave campaign and also because of the repeated lies being told: she referenced gove on turkey's accession to the eu on the today programme this morning. which you'd know if you'd been paying attention. the poster, which has been widely condemned, is again symptomatic, she said, of the lies from the leave campaign, suggesting all those people coming to the uk when that's not in fact the case.


----------



## weltweit (Jun 20, 2016)

ffsear said:


> I still don't know.  I'm going to vote on Gut feeling. I'm going to hover over the leave box and ask myself if I feel like i doing the right thing here.


Ouch, don't do that !!  Leave is the disruptors option, there will be a hullabaloo and much gnashing of teeth if Britain votes leave !! Is the status quo so very bad?


----------



## Dowie (Jun 20, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> warsi said she left because of the xenophobia of the leave campaign and also because of the repeated lies being told: she referenced gove on turkey's accession to the eu on the today programme this morning. which you'd know if you'd been paying attention.



so what... my point was just because some arseholes are voting for the same side doesn't mean you change your view... this issues haven't changed

if the BNP suddenly supported a rise in the minimum wage should people campaign for the opposite?


----------



## weltweit (Jun 20, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> warsi said she left because of the xenophobia of the leave campaign and also because of the repeated lies being told: she referenced gove on turkey's accession to the eu on the today programme this morning. which you'd know if you'd been paying attention. the poster, which has been widely condemned, is again symptomatic, she said, of the lies from the leave campaign, suggesting all those people coming to the uk when that's not in fact the case.


Till she switched to remain I had no idea she had been a leaver, shows how much impact she had been having in the leave campaign.


----------



## chilango (Jun 20, 2016)

Interestingly, or not, my part of Reading is a Green Party stronghold with Labour a fighting second. It's a mixed area. Where I live is tiny terraces and is w/c and lower middle families. Across the main road are the large semis worth half a million plus full of solidly m/c liberals. During elections Green and Labour posters appear all over. In this referendum there's been very few posters. Till now. Suddenly almost every house in the large semi area has a Remain poster in their window. But absolutely nothing in the streets around me.

Says something I think.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 20, 2016)

weltweit said:


> I guess it will have to.


Oh yeah, some people supporting the "destruction of not only the E.U., but also of Western political civilization.”. Not that many though.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 20, 2016)

Dowie said:


> so what... my point was just because some arseholes are voting for the same side doesn't mean you change your view... this issues haven't changed


haven't they? what are the issues for you then?

as for the bnp campaigning for something, they're such a rump party i don't suppose anyone would notice.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 20, 2016)

weltweit said:


> Till she switched to remain I had no idea she had been a leaver, shows how much impact she had been having in the leave campaign.


yeh i knew she was leave but she was wearing that grey man u strip


----------



## weltweit (Jun 20, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> .. people supporting the "destruction of not only the E.U., but also of Western political civilization.”. Not that many though.


Sometimes it does feel that way ..


----------



## Dowie (Jun 20, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> haven't they? what are the issues for you then?
> 
> as for the bnp campaigning for something, they're such a rump party i don't suppose anyone would notice.



various issues and irrelevant to the point - if you feel there is an issue particular to either campaign that has changed because of who else supports one side or the other then that is another matter, but I don't.


----------



## andysays (Jun 20, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Oh yeah, some people supporting the "destruction of not only the E.U., but also of Western political civilization.”. Not that many though.



will that appear on the ballot paper, or do I need to write it in myself?


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Jun 20, 2016)

weltweit said:


> Ouch, don't do that !!  Leave is the disruptors option, there will be a hullabaloo and much gnashing of teeth if Britain votes leave !! *Is the status quo so very bad?*



In my life time the post 'post-war settlement' status quo, has seen a shift from labour to capital which has hurt the provision of housing, health care, access to the law, workers rights, income distribution and progressive taxation (to name a few areas...other people please feel free to add your own). 

So the status quo, which the EU was designed and continues to defend and promote, is bad and promises worse. It is not the saviour of refugees, the protector of women's right and the champion of organised labour that some on the remain side would have us believe. 

Opposing it can be the pro-working class, internationalist and humanitarian thing to do; where as it is very hard to see how support for the pro-capital, building fortress Europe EU could ever be.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 20, 2016)

andysays said:


> will that appear on the ballot paper, or do I need to write it in myself?


You'll have to ask Herr Schauble.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 20, 2016)

Dowie said:


> various issues and irrelevant to the point - if you feel there is an issue particular to either campaign that has changed because of who else supports one side or the other then that is another matter, but I don't.


yeh but that's because you've said that all the issues are irrelevant.  you don't know what the issues are, do you? or you wouldn't come out with such guff.


----------



## JuanTwoThree (Jun 20, 2016)

I'm hoping that the rift between Tory leavers and Tory remainers fucks over the party. I'm also hoping that people on the left with well-thought-out reasons for leaving  and people on the left with well-thought-out reasons for remaining can continue the dialectical process. It is tempting to judge people by the company they keep: neither left-leavers nor left-remainers can be proud of every last person who supports their stance, though for different reasons from theirs.

 I've been guilty of tarring leavers with that particular brush and I regret it.

I do take some solace in the fact that  most of the non-revolutionary left in Europe (eg Podemos) is in favour of EU membership, with considerable reservations. I'd rather be judged by being ideologically close to them than by wanting the same thing as Tories do. By which token, leavers should be given the same chance to be judged by their association with principled Socialists who are leavers, rather than because they are going to vote with UKIP.


----------



## weltweit (Jun 20, 2016)

Louis MacNeice said:


> In my life time the post 'post-war settlement' status quo, has seen a shift from labour to capital which has hurt the provision of housing, health care, access to the law, workers rights, income distribution and progressive taxation (to name a few areas...other people please feel free to add your own).


The NHS is excellent, why would you put it down? As to workers rights, the social chapter, paid holidays, parental leave, working time etc have come out of the EU, how much of that would a UK tory party have brought to the commons? .. not much or none at all would be my bet. And a UK tory party is what we are looking at, emboldened if they get a leave vote to tear up the "red tape" which they so fondly name workers rights.



Louis MacNeice said:


> So the status quo, which the EU was designed and continues to defend and promote, is bad and promises worse. It is not the saviour of refugees, the protector of women's right and the champion of organised labour that some on the remain side would have us believe.


More tory years, the likelihood of a Scottish vote to leave with all that means for reduced non tory MPs in Westminster, I see an ugly tory future which I am pretty sure neither you nor I want.
On refugees, Germany took a lot of refugees, it is the tories that are dragging their feet, but we have inward immigration and outward, we are not cut off from the world. 



Louis MacNeice said:


> Opposing it can be the pro-working class, internationalist and humanitarian thing to do; where as it is very hard to see how support for the pro-capital, building fortress Europe EU could ever be.


Do you think there will be more or less UK jobs after a leave vote?


----------



## Flavour (Jun 20, 2016)

I'm happy that the "non-revolutionary left" aka reformists aka capitalist apologists don't feel guilty about voting to remain in a supra-state capitalist trade block.


----------



## Dowie (Jun 20, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh but that's because you've said that all the issues are irrelevant.  you don't know what the issues are, do you? or you wouldn't come out with such guff.



No I'm just not getting drawn into a general debate on whether we should or shouldn't leave the EU as it would be rather time consuming, I'm still undecided and unlike you I don't have the free time to waste my life posting on here all day. My post concerned someone changing her mind on which side to vote for on the basis of disliking the campaign being run by other people supporting the same side - that is what I took issue with and that is what I felt was flawed.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 20, 2016)

weltweit said:


> The NHS is excellent, why would you put it down?


in 2009 I could get an appmnt within a week. Now its five. I've repeated this so many times. Health and Social Care Act 2012. Where was the defender of rights EU there?


----------



## chilango (Jun 20, 2016)

weltweit said:


> The NHS is excellent, why would you put it down? As to workers rights, the social chapter, paid holidays, parental leave, working time etc have come out of the EU, how much of that would a UK tory party have brought to the commons? .. not much or none at all would be my bet. And a UK tory party is what we are looking at, emboldened if they get a leave vote to tear up the "red tape" which they so fondly name workers rights.



All of these things come from workers' struggles regardless of the EU or not.


----------



## weltweit (Jun 20, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> in 2009 I could get an appmnt within a week. Now its five. I've repeated this so many times. Health and Social Care Act 2012. Where was the defender of rights EU there?


I find if I call my GP for a non urgent appointment it is a week or more in the future but if I need to see them urgently, I call first thing and ask for any cancellations. Usually I get seen pretty quickly that way.


----------



## youngian (Jun 20, 2016)

Can Vote Remain campaigners who get the usual blind rage from Brexiters please now follow government guidelines
Terrorism and national emergencies - GOV.UK


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 20, 2016)

Dowie said:


> No I'm just not getting drawn into a general debate on whether we should or shouldn't leave the EU as it would be rather time consuming, I'm still undecided and unlike you I don't have the free time to waste my life posting on here all day. My post concerned someone changing her mind on which side to vote for on the basis of disliking the campaign being run by other people supporting the same side - that is what I took issue with and that is what I felt was flawed.


i asked you what the issues were for you and all i get back is a load of flannel which boils down to bugger all. this being the case, perhaps you should stop posting on this thread until you've something cogent to say.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 20, 2016)

weltweit said:


> I find if I call my GP for a non urgent appointment it is a week or more in the future but if I need to see them urgently, I call first thing and ask for any cancellations. Usually I get seen pretty quickly that way.



I can get same day emergency appmnts too but its for one issue only, and I have many. Then you better make sure its before 9pm cos everyone else will have filled the slots in. Its a great service the NHS, but creaking. And we know why.


----------



## two sheds (Jun 20, 2016)

weltweit said:


> I find if I call my GP for a non urgent appointment it is a week or more in the future but if I need to see them urgently, I call first thing and ask for any cancellations. Usually I get seen pretty quickly that way.



On average, though, response times have gone up which was the point DC was making.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jun 20, 2016)

weltweit said:


> I find if I call my GP for a non urgent appointment it is a week or more in the future but if I need to see them urgently, I call first thing and ask for any cancellations. Usually I get seen pretty quickly that way.



Same, if you need them same day you phone between 8 and 9 and you get a morning slot. If you need an appointment for something non-urgent it takes a week or two and you'll see em in the afternoon.


----------



## weltweit (Jun 20, 2016)

chilango said:


> All of these things come from workers' struggles regardless of the EU or not.


No argument with that except to add that concerted effort across the EU stands a chance of benefitting more people than just UK actions.


----------



## gosub (Jun 20, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> (I'm still seething about the shit that some have been doing here towards those of us who have been seriously looking at what possibilities there might be through a leave. Its really making me wonder whether to post on urban any more).



I actually think Urban is holding up quite well.  We haven't been astro turfed - there is independent thought here.  Compare it with facebook where discourse seems limited to sharing someone elses postcard of idea and then largely ignoring the responses (usually the people whom disagree explaining why)


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Jun 20, 2016)

weltweit said:


> The NHS is excellent, why would you put it down? As to workers rights, the social chapter, paid holidays, parental leave, working time etc have come out of the EU, how much of that would a UK tory party have brought to the commons? .. not much or none at all would be my bet. And a UK tory party is what we are looking at, emboldened if they get a leave vote to tear up the "red tape" which they so fondly name workers rights.
> 
> 
> More tory years, the likelihood of a Scottish vote to leave with all that means for reduced non tory MPs in Westminster, I see an ugly tory future which I am pretty sure neither you nor I want.
> ...



1. I am not putting the NHS down; why would I as a user of its services, a parent, the child of a couple in their 80s and an educator of nurses. I'm putting down the attacks on a free at the point of care, universalist NHS...or have you missed those?

2. Your limited view of workers rights is telling; what has the EU done to defend the rights of organised labour which we used to enjoy let alone promote any notion of international labour solidarity. 

However, I will take your silence re. housing, access to the law etc etc as some level of agreement about the current direction of travel.

What is even more telling is your doubly blinkered view that all we can look forward to is Tory governments and that change comes through either Westminster or the EU. It is such a weirdly mismatched belief in parliamentary democracy and bureaucratic efficiency that perhaps your implicit dismissal of the right of the Scots to decide on their own future isn't that surprising (you do know they may well vote to go which ever way the referendum ends up?).

As to your last point, I'll just refer you to Mr R Tressell as to why more work isn't the panacea you seem to believe it is. 

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## chilango (Jun 20, 2016)

weltweit said:


> No argument with that except to add that concerted effort across the EU stands a chance of benefitting more people than just UK actions.



That would be true whether we were in the EU or not. Capital and labour are both transnational (or should that be supranational?) entities.

My point is that membership of the EU (or not) is a red herring as far as labour forcing strategic concessions from capital.

It's relevant when discussing democratic mechanisms for change etc. But that's another thing.


----------



## skyscraper101 (Jun 20, 2016)

I just don't want to queue in the non-EU passport lanes when I fly from the UK to other European airports.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 20, 2016)

youngian said:


> Can Vote Remain campaigners who get the usual blind rage from Brexiters please now follow government guidelines
> Terrorism and national emergencies - GOV.UK


recon you can go any lower? Give it a go.


----------



## weltweit (Jun 20, 2016)

Louis MacNeice said:


> .. However, I will take your silence re. housing, access to the law etc etc as some level of agreement about the current direction of travel.


Ok, perhaps I will bite. What about access to law? how has the EU affected that?


----------



## weltweit (Jun 20, 2016)

Artaxerxes said:


> Same, if you need them same day you phone between 8 and 9 and you get a morning slot. If you need an appointment for something non-urgent it takes a week or two and you'll see em in the afternoon.


Someone here just called this am, saw their GP an hour later, was diagnosed and received medicine immediately afterwards. Pretty good local service.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 20, 2016)

weltweit said:


> Ok, perhaps I will bite. What about access to law? how has the EU affected that?


its that it hasn't you dollop. Did the legal aid cuts pass you by? so if brave guardian of our rights the EU is so good how come they didn't say a damn word when the right to a decent defence in court for people who can't pay?
Legal Aid Act has denied justice to the most vulnerable. It must be reviewed | Letters

and st Gove of Toad Hall called time on a second wave of legal aid cuts, thusly demonstrating that once again they threaten three steps forward then take two back. But are still ahead by one step now.


----------



## 8den (Jun 20, 2016)




----------



## Dowie (Jun 20, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> i asked you what the issues were for you and all i get back is a load of flannel which boils down to bugger all. this being the case, perhaps you should stop posting on this thread until you've something cogent to say.



No I'm just not getting drawn into a load of tit for tat bullshit with you, you've got the free time to post crap for hours on end here I've not - if I did I might get involved with a wider debate on the issues concerning leaving or remaining in the EU but they're not relevant to the point I was making and so I'm not going to go down that route.


----------



## D'wards (Jun 20, 2016)

Confucius say Cameron may well resign if its a Brexit - hmmm


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Jun 20, 2016)

weltweit said:


> Ok, perhaps I will bite. What about access to law? how has the EU affected that?



Please read what I wrote. You said the status quo isn't so bad. I pointed out a number of ways in which I thought things were getting worse; including access to the legal system...or do you think that's not so bad? I didn't say the EU was directly responsible for the particular elements of this state of affairs...the key was to challenge your rather miopic and self satisfied assertion that things aren't so bad.

Having done that I then went onto to state the obvious; i.e.  that the status quo is very much pro capital and that the EU was set up protect and continues to encourage the interests of capital. In short it's very reason for being is to promote a set of relationships I fundamentally disagree with, albeit ones that you consider not so bad. We want different things; the EU is one of many impediments to the things I want, while it seems to meet your needs pretty satisfactorily. 

So go ahead and vote remain, because after all it's not so bad, but please don't try to pretend that a vote for leave is an attack on what would once have been called progressive politics.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## weltweit (Jun 20, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> its that it hasn't you dollop. Did the legal aid cuts pass you by? so if brave guardian of our rights the EU is so good how come they didn't say a damn word when the right to a decent defence in court for people who can't pay?
> Legal Aid Act has denied justice to the most vulnerable. It must be reviewed | Letters
> 
> and st Gove of Toad Hall called time on a second wave of legal aid cuts, thusly demonstrating that once again they threaten three steps forward then take two back. But are still ahead by one step now.


Yes, that is interesting, I am in favour of Legal Aid, indeed I once benefitted from it myself, it should be available to people when they need representation. But you are saying the EU did not prevent its cutting, surely that is an example of UK government being left to get on with some issues that affect UK life. In this case it wasn't a good thing, but it goes to show surely that Westminster is now wholly monstered by Brussels.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 20, 2016)

Dowie said:


> No I'm just not getting drawn into a load of tit for tat bullshit with you, you've got the free time to post crap for hours on end here I've not - if I did I might get involved with a wider debate on the issues concerning leaving or remaining in the EU but they're not relevant to the point I was making and so I'm not going to go down that route.


i asked you what the issues were for you. this was not a preliminary to a long drawn out exchange, i wanted to see how engaged you were with the factors at stake. now you've told me. thank you for proving yourself an empty vessel.


----------



## smokedout (Jun 20, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Problem for me here is that the EU, shit as it is, all the criticisms of it as a capitalist club being entirely valid, isn't the worst of all possible worlds. A UK being driven by Atlanticists like Johnson and Gove, trying to out-neoliberalise the EU, is potentially even worse. And that's what I see on the table in front of me.



Am only halfway through this thread so apologies if this has been addressed but this is just horseshit and seems to be everywhere.  It's horseshit fot two reasons, firstly the claim that a Johnson/Gove/Farage? take over is inevitable in the case of Brexit, and secondly that this is impossible - or that the EU will save us from it - in the case of Remain.

Fuck the clowns, look at who you're lining up with - Cameron, Blair, the IMF, Obama, the EU themselves, architects of neoliberalism, fortress Europe and racist war.  You seriously believe that Cameron and Osborne are better than Boris and Gove?  They are the same, cut from the same cloth, with the same aims and beliefs.  Only difference is that Cameron/New Labour/US/EU/IMF alliance has better PR and more power.  Gove, Boris and Farage, bring them fucking on, they look more beatable than the current set up.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 20, 2016)

Did anyone challenge the bragg on his quote invention last night?


----------



## Dowie (Jun 20, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> i asked you what the issues were for you. this was not a preliminary to a long drawn out exchange, i wanted to see how engaged you were with the factors at stake. now you've told me. thank you for proving yourself an empty vessel.



The issues for me have nothing to do with the point I was making which stands whether I'm for remain or leave and for any number of reasons, that is all... I know from past experience not to bother pandering to your requests especially when it has no relevance to what I posted.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 20, 2016)

Dowie said:


> The issues for me have nothing to do with the point I was making which stands whether I'm for remain or leave and for any number of reasons, that is all... I know from past experience not to bother pandering to your requests especially when it has no relevance to what I posted.


you've made seven posts on this thread:

none of which show any engagement with the issues. you don't know anything about the issues, and i submit it's that which lies behind your reticence and not any affected reluctance to engage with me.


----------



## weltweit (Jun 20, 2016)

Louis MacNeice said:


> Please read what I wrote. You said the status quo isn't so bad. I pointed out a number of ways in which I thought things were getting worse; including access to the legal system...or do you think that's not so bad? I didn't say the EU was directly responsible for the particular elements of this state of affairs...the key was to challenge your rather miopic and self satisfied assertion that things aren't so bad.


I am not self satisfied. I have seen companies relocate to cheaper locations leaving unemployment behind. And I have struggled to find work where once jobs came to me easily. My point about the status quo was perhaps ill judged. I am no fan of the EU but I am concerned that the UK maintain relations and work together extensively with its nearest neighbours and allies. My decision to vote remain is based on the idea that staying in the EU, imperfect as it is, is preferable to leaving, destabilising ourselves and our neighbours, distancing ourselves from the single market and beginning negotiations with a wider not very interested world. 



Louis MacNeice said:


> Having done that I then went onto to state the obvious; i.e.  that the status quo is very much pro capital and that the EU was set up protect and continues to encourage the interests of capital. In short it's very reason for being is to promote a set of relationships I fundamentally disagree with, albeit ones that you consider not so bad. We want different things; the EU is one of many impediments to the things I want, while it seems to meet your needs pretty satisfactorily.


I don't know what you want, but I feel a UK removed from the EU will be weaker in many ways, my vote is about the lesser of two evils, staying in and working to improve the EU from the inside for the UK and other EU members interests.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 20, 2016)

Those Urbz who've employed '_the company you keep_' line might care to look at the.....oh, you get it.


----------



## redsquirrel (Jun 20, 2016)

weltweit said:


> destabilising ourselves and our neighbours, distancing ourselves from the single market


Yes, we wouldn't want to do anything to upset the market(s) would we.

Mind you, at least there's no pretence in this line, all power the market, liberalism clear for all to see. The same liberalism that is currently attacking workers and hitting the welfare state.


----------



## weltweit (Jun 20, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> Yes, we wouldn't want to do anything to upset the market(s) would we.
> 
> Mind you, at least there's no pretence in this line, all power the market, liberalism clear for all to see. The same liberalism that is currently attacking workers and hitting the welfare state.


redsquirrel I see you using this line repeatedly and using the word market as if it was the devil incarnate. Workers need somewhere to sell the product of their labours and such a place is called a market!


----------



## redsquirrel (Jun 20, 2016)

And 2hats was complaining about people being called liberals.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 20, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Did anyone challenge the bragg on his quote invention last night?


yes. I took issue with one line in particular and mentioned that. As for the rest well, bollocks to the fraud. Bowed his head to the queen _and _voted lib dem


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 20, 2016)

weltweit said:


> redsquirrel I see you using this line repeatedly and using the word market as if it was the devil incarnate. Workers need somewhere to sell the product of their labours and such a place is called a market!


Tell me, where do workers ever have the products of their labour and access to markets in which to sell please.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 20, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> yes. I took issue with one line in particular and mentioned that. As for the rest well, bollocks to the fraud. Bowed his head to the queen and voted lib dem


Was there any response though?


----------



## two sheds (Jun 20, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> And 2hats was complaining about people being called liberals.



I think you'll find that was me. I have two sheds but no hats.


----------



## redsquirrel (Jun 20, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Tell me, where do workers ever have the products of their labour and access to markets in which to sell please.


Ask not what the market can do for you but what you do for the market.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 20, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> Ask not what the market can do for you but what you do for the market.


V good!


----------



## redsquirrel (Jun 20, 2016)

two sheds said:


> I think you'll find that was me. I have two sheds but no hats.


Apols (to 2hats as well)

But you can't complain about anyone calling the above tosh liberalism it's pretty much the incarnation of it.


----------



## two sheds (Jun 20, 2016)

Well yes but I'm not keen on an increase in unemployment either if that were to happen. Is that a purely liberal concern?


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 20, 2016)

two sheds said:


> Well yes but I'm not keen on an increase in unemployment either if that were to happen. Is that a purely liberal concern?


It's uniquely yours and those that you agree with.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Jun 20, 2016)

weltweit said:


> redsquirrel I see you using this line repeatedly and using the word market as if it was the devil incarnate. *Workers need somewhere to sell the product of their labours and such a place is called a market*!



Who does that? Most people sell their labour power (physical and mental). 

We have no fundamental need to sell anything; what we do need are various goods and services and relationships. 

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## two sheds (Jun 20, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> It's uniquely yours and those that you agree with.



Where did I say that?


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 20, 2016)

two sheds said:


> Where did I say that?


You didn't. That's sort of the point i was making.


----------



## two sheds (Jun 20, 2016)

Good, that's settled then. 

So it's uniquely yours and those that *you* agree with.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Jun 20, 2016)

two sheds said:


> Well yes but I'm not keen on an increase in unemployment either if that were to happen. Is that a purely liberal concern?



Is the concern with unemployment or with the consequences of the loss of income?

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## two sheds (Jun 20, 2016)

Unemployment and the loss of income to the people being made unemployed, and the general forcing down of wages that will come with it.


----------



## redsquirrel (Jun 20, 2016)

two sheds said:


> Well yes but I'm not keen on an increase in unemployment either if that were to happen. Is that a purely liberal concern?


Does a Leave vote *have* to lead to an increase in unemployment? What is it about the markets that, supposedly, necessitate that Leave equals job losses? Could it be the same factors that supposedly necessitate higher business taxes equal less productivity/job losses?


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 20, 2016)

in work tax credits demonstrate quite starkly that wage levels are already driven so low the govmnt has to gladhand the employers sweating their workers by the gift of tax credits.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Jun 20, 2016)

two sheds said:


> Unemployment and the loss of income to the people being made unemployed, and the general forcing down of wages that will come with it.



What is it about unemployment rather than loss of income that concerns you?

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## two sheds (Jun 20, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> Does a Leave vote *have* to lead to an increase in unemployment? What is it about the markets that, supposedly, necessitate that Leave equals job losses? Could it be the same factors that supposedly necessitate higher business taxes equal less productivity/job losses?



(1) Not that I know of. (2) Major buyers of the UK's exports are in EU countries. (3) Yes (I think). Rich businesses and people should be paying their share of tax - tax avoidance/evasion is a major reason we have the funding crises in the NHS and the attack on benefits.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 20, 2016)

Key issues that underpin Norway polls currently showing that 70% are against joining EU :


> @kristinels: The39thStep @GoodwinMJ Previously sovereignty, single currency, agriculture & fisheries -lately also EU financial crisis and refugee crisis


----------



## two sheds (Jun 20, 2016)

Louis MacNeice said:


> What is it about unemployment rather than loss of income that concerns you?
> 
> Cheers - Louis MacNeice



Largely the effect on the unemployed - increased depression, inability to feed their family, worry about how they are going to pay their bills.


----------



## editor (Jun 20, 2016)

Oliver's take:


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 20, 2016)

two sheds said:


> that you often get asked about what you mean by the word 'liberal' by people who see themselves as having liberal values, and that they aren't wholly satisfied with the definition you give.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



People who "see themselves as having liberal values", often don't. What they tend to have instead is an adherence to the current consensus, but with perhaps some amelioration of what "the system" does to people. That's not liberal in the original sense, and accepts the behaviour of power.


----------



## Dowie (Jun 20, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> you've made seven posts on this thread:
> View attachment 88648
> none of which show any engagement with the issues. you don't know anything about the issues, and i submit it's that which lies behind your reticence and not any affected reluctance to engage with me.



Not I just don't want to get drawn into engaging with the issues, especially with you as you're a tedious, time wasting cunt. The post I initially made isn't relevant to the specific issues as I see them nor is it relevant which side I'm on etc.. that isn't hard to understand yet you continually want to goad me into discussing the issues surrounding the EU referendum which I've been pretty clear in stating that I'm not going to do.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 20, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> I don't.



You have no sense of smell.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Jun 20, 2016)

two sheds said:


> Largely the effect on the unemployed - increased depression, inability to feed their family, worry about how they are going to pay their bills.



Inability to buy food and pay bills is about loss of income not unemployment; so can you be any more definite on why unemployment is a problem per se?

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## two sheds (Jun 20, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> People who "see themselves as having liberal values", often don't. What they tend to have instead is an adherence to the current consensus, but with perhaps some amelioration of what "the system" does to people. That's not liberal in the original sense, and accepts the behaviour of power.



Yes, that's the sense Chomsky seems to use it in. Being open to new ideas as per the non-political definition doesn't preclude that though.


----------



## two sheds (Jun 20, 2016)

Louis MacNeice said:


> Inability to buy food and pay bills is about loss of income not unemployment; so can you be any more definite on why unemployment is a problem per se?
> 
> Cheers - Louis MacNeice



but loss of income accompanies unemployment so you can't separate them. Loss of self respect from being denied the opportunity to work and loss to society (waste) of those peoples' abilities and experience.

Unemployed tend to suffer from depression, have low levels of well-being and life satisfaction, and financial hardship with difficulties paying bills. 

http://www.dartmouth.edu/~blnchflr/papers/Bell-Blanchflower.pdf


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 20, 2016)

mauvais said:


> Hence 'other than theoretical terms'. How and when? It's the skeleton of a concept, not a strategy or a route with probability attached. You could just as well argue that it'll be more effective to change the entity from within, not something I subscribe to but about as tangible.



Except that *sigh* change imposed by the people is more likely than change from within ever will be. Anyone who's ever worked for a bureaucracy is aware that such organisations don't cede powers, they only accumulate them.
As for "how and when?", when people get angry enough to shrug off the propaganda and the oppression. I can't give you a fixed date or tactical schema, however much you desire them. 



> We're back to this whole argument where fantasy positive outcomes are used to justify a stance, ignoring that there's a much higher and more tangible chance of enabling the exact opposite.



I'm not looking for an outcome, fantasy or otherwise, and your "much higher and more tangible chance of enabling the exact opposite" is a fantasy of your own. Show the workings that point this up please, if you can.


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## The39thStep (Jun 20, 2016)

Projected votes in Manchester show the three most wealthiest boroughs will vote Remain , the poorest Exit
EU poll: How will Greater Manchester vote in the referendum?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 20, 2016)

youngian said:


> Just to clarify I'm just a foot soldier but thanks for thinking I'm one of the snobby intellectual Metropolitan elite experts. But what do they know facts can prove anything and experts built the Titanic and crashed the banks. A bit of plain common sense over a pint with Nigel will reveal the truth. Another thing I want to know about populists is why you don't step up to the plate to take power from the corrupt elites who are just in it to line their pockets and are so much more lazy and less virtuous than keyboard warriors? At least Nigel is about to next week (Boris has offered Lord Farage of Nuremberg a peerage) with the help of Lexit twats who think this referendum is just a game.



Says the mug who's giving it out that Farage is some kind of Nazi.
You've got the common sense of a dead goat if you think that kind of stupid name-calling has any place. You nail people for what they've done, not for what you believe them to be, idiot.


----------



## Red O (Jun 20, 2016)

Comrade Mason has deigned to address the hushed ranks of the proletariat, via the Guardian: working class Brexiteers are clowns led by demagogues, the working class is not the best judge of its own interests and is incapable of shaping its own future, and we must unite behind the party that abandoned us:  www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/20/brexit-fake-revolt-eu-working-class-culture-hijacked-help-elite


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## krtek a houby (Jun 20, 2016)

That latest UKIP billboard advert has very unpleasant undertones to it.


Nigel Farage EU poster reported to police as it's compared to Nazi propaganda


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## steeplejack (Jun 20, 2016)

I am wavering a bit as the vote approaches. I guess that's the way it goes with such a big decision.

Even if "Leave" wins, especially if it is by a small margin, there is no guarantee that we will actually Leave, as the referendum is advisory rather than legally binding. Ultimately, the decision lies with the government. I can see them arguing that a small Leave win is not mandate enough to leave (not that a narrow remain win would be interpreted in such a way).

I _was_ disgusted by UKIP recycling Nazi propaganda last week, on the same day Jo Cox was murdered; though trying not to let symptoms of right wing fuckwittery overwrite the many decent non right-wing reasons for a leave vote.

The trouble is, no outcome really is very palatable. If Remain wins we are shackled to a neoliberal happy-clappers outfit who in an ideal world would impose TTIP and all kinds of other free-market crap, whilst at the same time sitting and shuffling awkwardly as Hungary and Bulgaria put up razor wire fences and beat up /arrest defenceless and desperate people; as Austria, Croatia and France flirt with electing fascists and neo-Nazis. And, some of our taxpayers cash goes to a rising despot in Turkey who feels so emboldened by our unelected leaders' moral squeamishness that he shoots unarmed migrants on his border and is engaged in an all out war against Kurds in Syria.

If Leave wins, Putin is happy, Farage will be filmed laughing half cut in the pub with Gove and Johnson, and who knows what kind of libertarian fantasists playground the UK will come in a very short space of time. This for me is the trouble with the Lexit platform. There is simply no thinking whatsoever on how to resist the plans of the Farages and Goves of this world, and by what means many of the neoliberal gains of the last thirty years could be reversed in a non-EU Britain. Indeed, it seems likely that those two have a plan to turn the UK into some kind of Singapore off the coast of Europe.

Moreover, the _capacity_ for pro-working class forces to resist such a drive post Brexit is virtually nil. The unions are branded social clubs in the main these days and the few capable thinkers are so politically isolated and without influence that they are effectively howling at the moon. Meanwhile celebrity leftists like Mason and Varoufakis seem more intent on growing their own personal brands and making nonsense calls for pan-European social movements than in contributing anything worthwhile.

It's all very well making calls to "destablise the emergent neo-liberal global order" via a no vote, but it's being written about as an isolated event rather than as a process. Unfortunately it seems about as valuable as a Trot motion of solidarity with Palestine passed by four people in the back room of a pub.

I hope I'm wrong. But it's not pleasant at all being asked to choose which bowl of reeking right-wing shite to eat from this Thursday. Not pleasant at all. Not that not eating is an option either.

I still lean towards leave as at least there is a glimmer from a marginally open door, maybe. But people who vote for the safety of the familiar and what they know can't be despised either. My feeling is, particularly in the wake of last Thursday's sickening murder by a fascist terrorist, that Remain will win quite comfortably in the end.

That being the case, what will "business as usual" look like for political and business elites? I would expect at least a fortnight's worth of oleaginous plaudits for choosing the "European course" and the UK to have quite a bit of slack for a while with Brussels. And for us to continue to try and let the Chinese build a nuclear plant in Essex and pay the French ludicrously over the odds to try and do the same. Followed by another decade of economic austerity and _"it's just not realistic to expect us to pay for this anymore"._

Depressing.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Jun 20, 2016)

two sheds said:


> but loss of income accompanies unemployment so you can't separate them. Loss of self respect from being denied the opportunity to work and loss to society (waste) of those peoples' abilities and experience.
> 
> Unemployed tend to suffer from depression, have low levels of well-being and life satisfaction, and financial hardship with difficulties paying bills.
> 
> http://www.dartmouth.edu/~blnchflr/papers/Bell-Blanchflower.pdf



Why shouldn't we try to separate income guarantee from employment; it might go some way to dispelling depression and increasing feelings of well being? After all that is what the NHS, state education and the state pension are about in part at least. You've also slipped in the confusion between work and employment; think of all those carers who work very hard, make a massive contribution to our society but don't earn a penny. 

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## mauvais (Jun 20, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> Except that *sigh* change imposed by the people is more likely than change from within ever will be. Anyone who's ever worked for a bureaucracy is aware that such organisations don't cede powers, they only accumulate them.
> As for "how and when?", when people get angry enough to shrug off the propaganda and the oppression. I can't give you a fixed date or tactical schema, however much you desire them.
> 
> I'm not looking for an outcome, fantasy or otherwise, and your "much higher and more tangible chance of enabling the exact opposite" is a fantasy of your own. Show the workings that point this up please, if you can.


It's not hard, and we have done this before. The Tories and centre-to-far right are clearly best placed to profit in the short to medium term. Removal of those partial EU protections we've been talking about benefits capital. Further disruption to the economy probably benefits the austerity narrative, broken as it is, and if not that directly, then more broadly in terms of pitting rich against poor.

So lots of ways for it to get worse, and little evidence of how we or any allied entities are poised and ready to exploit it. There's not healthy precedent internationally. Most realistically it's a scorched earth concept that hopes that something better will emerge from total ruin. Well, I can't back this up offhand but I suspect that the majority of modern historical progressive gains took place against a wider background of stability, not turmoil, and having to transition to an independent economy is the latter.

So with all that lurking in the bushes ready to play its part, no tactics and no outcome but a call to do something anyway is just not good enough for me.


----------



## agricola (Jun 20, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> Except that *sigh* change imposed by the people is more likely than change from within ever will be. Anyone who's ever worked for a bureaucracy is aware that such organisations don't cede powers, they only accumulate them.



Truer words were never typed out.


----------



## agricola (Jun 20, 2016)

mauvais said:


> So lots of ways for it to get worse, and little evidence of how we or any allied entities are poised and ready to exploit it. There's not healthy precedent internationally. Most realistically it's a scorched earth concept that hopes that something better will emerge from total ruin. *Well, I can't back this up offhand but I suspect that the majority of modern historical progressive gains took place against a wider background of stability, not turmoil, and having to transition to an independent economy is the latter.*



Not really; in fact most positive social change has taken place in the aftermath of large scale conflict, disasters or technological advancements that disrupt the usual order of things.  Long-term stability usually results in worsening conditions as costs (edit: to business etc) inexorably rise and those in charge seek to bring about means by which they can be reduced.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 20, 2016)

Dowie said:


> Not I just don't want to get drawn into engaging with the issues, especially with you as you're a tedious, time wasting cunt. The post I initially made isn't relevant to the specific issues as I see them nor is it relevant which side I'm on etc.. that isn't hard to understand yet you continually want to goad me into discussing the issues surrounding the EU referendum which I've been pretty clear in stating that I'm not going to do.


No, all I have sought from you is an enumeration, a list if you will, of the issues for you. If you had simply said immigration or sovereignty or whatnot you wouldn't have wasted so much of your time on this, we'd have moved on. To reiterate afaics you haven't a clue what any of the issues are here. So why the fuck are you posting on the thread in the first place?


----------



## two sheds (Jun 20, 2016)

Louis MacNeice said:


> Why shouldn't we try to separate income guarantee from employment; it might go some way to dispelling depression and increasing feelings of well being? After all that is what the NHS, state education and the state pension are about in part at least.



Indeed. I'd also like to see a return to the pre-Thatcher post-war social contract: 0 to 4% unemployment for 30 years.



> You've also slipped in the confusion between work and employment; think of all those carers who work very hard, make a massive contribution to our society but don't earn a penny.
> 
> Cheers - Louis MacNeice



Agreed.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 20, 2016)

two sheds said:


> Indeed. I'd also like to see a return to the pre-Thatcher post-war social contract: 0 to 4% employment for 30 years.


I'm an abolition of work man too


----------



## two sheds (Jun 20, 2016)

i corrected it in between you replying


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## ViolentPanda (Jun 20, 2016)

Dowie said:


> ah the usual snide comment from the usual cunt



Projection.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 20, 2016)

Dowie said:


> so what... my point was just because some arseholes are voting for the same side doesn't mean you change your view... this issues haven't changed
> 
> if the BNP suddenly supported a rise in the minimum wage should people campaign for the opposite?



How come you always use hyperbole as a first rather than a last resort.

I don't blame it on your politics, by the way. I blame it on your proven inability to actually engage in reasoned debate with anyone who doesn't agree with you.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 20, 2016)

chilango said:


> Interestingly, or not, my part of Reading is a Green Party stronghold with Labour a fighting second. It's a mixed area. Where I live is tiny terraces and is w/c and lower middle families. Across the main road are the large semis worth half a million plus full of solidly m/c liberals. During elections Green and Labour posters appear all over. In this referendum there's been very few posters. Till now. Suddenly almost every house in the large semi area has a Remain poster in their window. But absolutely nothing in the streets around me.
> 
> Says something I think.



Fuck all on the windows round here (inner London council estate that's still more than 2/3rds tenants), in terms of the referendum.


----------



## killer b (Jun 20, 2016)

The39thStep said:


> Projected votes in Manchester show the three most wealthiest boroughs will vote Remain , the poorest Exit
> EU poll: How will Greater Manchester vote in the referendum?


That seems to be reflected by the national polls - the wealthy are overwhelmingly favouring remain, the poor favour leave. I saw a very revealing article in the liberal press last week going on about how all is not lost 'cause the poor don't vote and the wealthy do, _as if that's a good thing_, and there's been regular idiocy from the remain camp going on about how the lower your education level, the more likely you are to vote leave: and the reason for this is intelligence rather than class. It's been quite an eye opener.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 20, 2016)

Partly leaving these here so I can come back to them later, partly because others may be interested in reading them.

Brexit is a fake revolt – working-class culture is being hijacked to help the elite | Paul Mason

Leaving the EU will not free us from TTIP | Another Europe is Possible


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 20, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> How come you always use hyperbole as a first rather than a last resort.
> 
> I don't blame it on your politics, by the way. I blame it on your proven inability to actually engage in reasoned debate with anyone who doesn't agree with you.


To be fair he's not so good with the oddballs who agree with him either


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 20, 2016)

killer b said:


> That seems to be reflected by the national polls - the wealthy are overwhelmingly favouring remain, the poor favour leave. I saw a very revealing article in the liberal press last week going on about how all is not lost 'cause the poor don't vote and the wealthy do, _as if that's a good thing_, and there's been regular idiocy from the remain camp going on about how the lower your education level, the more likely you are to vote leave: and the reason for this is intelligence rather than class. It's been quite an eye opener.


Yeh, anyone daring to suggest departing has been fingered by the 'liberal' press as an uneducated thick racist oik.


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## two sheds (Jun 20, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> has been fingered by the 'liberal' press



Good point well made.


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## The39thStep (Jun 20, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> Partly leaving these here so I can come back to them later, partly because others may be interested in reading them.
> 
> Brexit is a fake revolt – working-class culture is being hijacked to help the elite | Paul Mason
> 
> Leaving the EU will not free us from TTIP | Another Europe is Possible


I generally like Paul Mason, his book post capitalism was very useful and I admire his attempt at describing a future  society that is not some re-run of Russia 1917 or a barter led anarchist commune but something actually might just be possible. However this article is primarlythere to serve his most recently held belief that the EU might be reformable if we have a left labour govt backed up by radical Scottish nationalism and similar allies in Europe.
It's also I feel partly a response to an article a few days before Britain is in the midst of a working-class revolt | John Harris.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 20, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> Does a Leave vote *have* to lead to an increase in unemployment? What is it about the markets that, supposedly, necessitate that Leave equals job losses? Could it be the same factors that supposedly necessitate higher business taxes equal less productivity/job losses?



Given the market instability that the referendum has caused - a cynic might even say "engineered" - either Remain or Leave could have an adverse effect on employment, employment rights, wages etc. The market can always find justifications for screwing workers over.


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## Treacle Toes (Jun 20, 2016)

The39thStep said:


> I generally like Paul Mason, his book post capitalism was very useful and I admire his attempt at describing a future  society that is not some re-run of Russia 1917 or a barter led anarchist commune but something actually might just be possible. However this article is primarlythere to serve his most recently held belief that the EU might be reformable if we have a left labour give backed up by radical Scottish nationalism and similar allies in Europe.
> It's also I feel partly a response to an article a few days before Britain is in the midst of a working-class revolt | John Harris.



Thanks, I will have a look at that too.


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## Smokeandsteam (Jun 20, 2016)

The39thStep said:


> I generally like Paul Mason, his book post capitalism was very useful and I admire his attempt at describing a future  society that is not some re-run of Russia 1917 or a barter led anarchist commune but something actually might just be possible. However this article is primarlythere to serve his most recently held belief that the EU might be reformable if we have a left labour give backed up by radical Scottish nationalism and similar allies in Europe.
> It's also I feel partly a response to an article a few days before Britain is in the midst of a working-class revolt | John Harris.



He's spot on here "They are right, too, to worry about the cultural impact. In a big, multi-ethnic city, absorbing a lot of migrants is easy. In small towns, where social capital is already meagre, the migrant population can feel unabsorbed. The structure of temporary migration from Europe means many of those who come don’t vote, or don’t have the right to – which feels unsettling if you understand that it is only by voting that the workforce ever achieved progress. It feels as if, through migration, the establishment got to create the kind of working class it always wanted: fragmented, dislocated, politically distant, weak".


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 20, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> Fuck all on the windows round here (inner London council estate that's still more than 2/3rds tenants), in terms of the referendum.


Tbh I've never seen election posters on council estates.


----------



## chilango (Jun 20, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> Tbh I've never seen election posters on council estates.



Is that cos you never go on council estates?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 20, 2016)

chilango said:


> Is that cos you never go on council estates?


No

The only ones I recall seeing were for auld communist monty goldman in Hackney years ago, and those were on the side of a community centre.


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## hot air baboon (Jun 20, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> Fuck all on the windows round here (inner London council estate that's still more than 2/3rds tenants), in terms of the referendum.



...isn't that Lambeth ? ...supposedly the most pro EU place in England 

 

 

whilst Havering should get together for a re-worked version of Stalin wasn't Stallin'

The most Eurosceptic and pro-EU places in Britain are revealed


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 20, 2016)

steeplejack said:


> I am wavering a bit as the vote approaches. I guess that's the way it goes with such a big decision.
> 
> Even if "Leave" wins, especially if it is by a small margin, there is no guarantee that we will actually Leave, as the referendum is advisory rather than legally binding. Ultimately, the decision lies with the government. I can see them arguing that a small Leave win is not mandate enough to leave (not that a narrow remain win would be interpreted in such a way).
> 
> I _was_ disgusted by UKIP recycling Nazi propaganda last week, on the same day Jo Cox was murdered; though trying not to let symptoms of right wing fuckwittery overwrite the many decent non right-wing reasons for a leave vote.



I seriously think people need to step away from calling UKIP "Nazi". Quasi-fascist without a doubt; racist certainly; with a membership that includes some former and current neo-Nazis almost definitely, but "Nazi"?



> The trouble is, no outcome really is very palatable. If Remain wins we are shackled to a neoliberal happy-clappers outfit who in an ideal world would impose TTIP and all kinds of other free-market crap, whilst at the same time sitting and shuffling awkwardly as Hungary and Bulgaria put up razor wire fences and beat up /arrest defenceless and desperate people; as Austria, Croatia and France flirt with electing fascists and neo-Nazis. And, some of our taxpayers cash goes to a rising despot in Turkey who feels so emboldened by our unelected leaders' moral squeamishness that he shoots unarmed migrants on his border and is engaged in an all out war against Kurds in Syria.



All the countries you've named above, have more that "flirted" with electing fascists and neo-Nazis, although I'd argue that you'd have to analyse the post-war political history of each country from 1945 to now, in order to appreciate *why* they might be doing so. None of it comes out of a vacuum.



> If Leave wins, Putin is happy, Farage will be filmed laughing half cut in the pub with Gove and Johnson, and who knows what kind of libertarian fantasists playground the UK will come in a very short space of time. This for me is the trouble with the Lexit platform. There is simply no thinking whatsoever on how to resist the plans of the Farages and Goves of this world, and by what means many of the neoliberal gains of the last thirty years could be reversed in a non-EU Britain. Indeed, it seems likely that those two have a plan to turn the UK into some kind of Singapore off the coast of Europe.



Why do you think there's "no thinking"?
It seems to me that if a government - as ours have done since the 1970s - constantly piles the pressure onto the working class, eroding terms and conditions, housing security etc, that leaves very little room for organising except through traditional routes such as unions, and they've spent much of the last 35 years protecting their assets, rather than their membership. "The people" have neither had the time or the means to formulate resistance. That's been left to dilettantes and think-tanks shilling for power.


----------



## 8den (Jun 20, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> I seriously think people need to step away from calling UKIP "Nazi". Quasi-fascist without a doubt; racist certainly; with a membership that includes some former and current neo-Nazis almost definitely, but "Nazi"?



Say what you like about the Nazis but it's unfair to tarnish their reputation by associated them with UKIP members?


----------



## Red O (Jun 20, 2016)

Smokeandsteam said:


> He's spot on here "They are right, too, to worry about the cultural impact. In a big, multi-ethnic city, absorbing a lot of migrants is easy. In small towns, where social capital is already meagre, the migrant population can feel unabsorbed. The structure of temporary migration from Europe means many of those who come don’t vote, or don’t have the right to – which feels unsettling if you understand that it is only by voting that the workforce ever achieved progress. It feels as if, through migration, the establishment got to create the kind of working class it always wanted: fragmented, dislocated, politically distant, weak".



Mason's own words: 'all over Britain, people have fallen for the scam. In the Brexit referendum, we’ve seen what happens when working-class culture gets hijacked'. Translation: the dumb proles don't know what they're doing. Never mind the fact that WC support for leave pre-dates the campaign.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 20, 2016)

hot air baboon said:


> ...isn't that Lambeth ? ...supposedly the most pro EU place in England
> 
> View attachment 88652
> 
> ...


Another attempt at this here


----------



## Red O (Jun 20, 2016)

The39thStep said:


> I generally like Paul Mason, his book post capitalism was very useful and I admire his attempt at describing a future  society that is not some re-run of Russia 1917 or a barter led anarchist commune but something actually might just be possible. However this article is primarlythere to serve his most recently held belief that the EU might be reformable if we have a left labour govt backed up by radical Scottish nationalism and similar allies in Europe.
> It's also I feel partly a response to an article a few days before Britain is in the midst of a working-class revolt | John Harris.



Mason's article seems to be there primarily to promote his apparent belief that the working class isn't the best judge of its own interests.

Edit: it's completely a response to Harris's infinitely better article.


----------



## steeplejack (Jun 20, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> I seriously think people need to step away from calling UKIP "Nazi". Quasi-fascist without a doubt; racist certainly; with a membership that includes some former and current neo-Nazis almost definitely, but "Nazi"?



I didn't call UKIP Nazi. However their latest poster appears to employ the same visual tropew as Nazi propaganda. I agree with you that they are more along the line of contemporary nationalist-populists.




ViolentPanda said:


> All the countries you've named above, have more that "flirted" with electing fascists and neo-Nazis, although I'd argue that you'd have to analyse the post-war political history of each country from 1945 to now, in order to appreciate *why* they might be doing so. None of it comes out of a vacuum.



I'm well aware of that, I should have been clearer; I am talking about elections in the last twelve months; clerical fascists /populist nationalists in Croatia; Le Pen in France; narow squeak with Haider's successors in Austria.




ViolentPanda said:


> Why do you think there's "no thinking"?
> It seems to me that if a government - as ours have done since the 1970s - constantly piles the pressure onto the working class, eroding terms and conditions, housing security etc, that leaves very little room for organising except through traditional routes such as unions, and they've spent much of the last 35 years protecting their assets, rather than their membership. "The people" have neither had the time or the means to formulate resistance. That's been left to dilettantes and think-tanks shilling for power.



True again, I don't disagree. How does this very reasonable analysis help in charting a non-libertarian pro-working class post-Brexit path? In fact in the circumstances you outline you all but state that this is impossible, and therefore a Lexit is a leap in the dark.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 20, 2016)

steeplejack said:


> Lexit is a leap in the dark.


the devil you know is still the devil


----------



## steeplejack (Jun 20, 2016)

yeah. 

bleak, isn't it?


----------



## steeplejack (Jun 20, 2016)

Brexit or not, this is an early piece of libertarian architecture amenable to either outcome. Sponsor: Letwin, O.


----------



## treelover (Jun 20, 2016)

killer b said:


> That seems to be reflected by the national polls - the wealthy are overwhelmingly favouring remain, the poor favour leave. I saw a very revealing article in the liberal press last week going on about how all is not lost 'cause the poor don't vote and the wealthy do, _as if that's a good thing_, and there's been regular idiocy from the remain camp going on about how the lower your education level, the more likely you are to vote leave: and the reason for this is intelligence rather than class. It's been quite an eye opener.



I'm a cautious remainer but its becoming clear that brexit for many poor working class people is a big FU to the comfortably off and a cry for help, sneering at them like many of the liberal left have done is counterproductive. If the result is remain, the wider left shouldn't feel vindicated, triumphalist, etc, but reorient itself, stop chasing every fashionable cause SWP style and take on basic issues: housing, social security, ZHC, rogue landlords, workfare, etc.


----------



## killer b (Jun 20, 2016)

shut the fuck up about the SWP. you're the only person left in the country who even remembers who they were.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jun 20, 2016)

Red O said:


> Mason's own words: 'all over Britain, people have fallen for the scam. In the Brexit referendum, we’ve seen what happens when working-class culture gets hijacked'. Translation: the dumb proles don't know what they're doing. Never mind the fact that WC support for leave pre-dates the campaign.



Yeah, the reason I highlighted the section was that Mason correctly identifies a list of genuine WC concerns and then dismises them with a demand that they line up behind the Party that abadoned them and helped create many of the problems in the first place.


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## butchersapron (Jun 20, 2016)

The39thStep said:


> I generally like Paul Mason, his book post capitalism was very useful and I admire his attempt at describing a future  society that is not some re-run of Russia 1917 or a barter led anarchist commune but something actually might just be possible. However this article is primarlythere to serve his most recently held belief that the EU might be reformable if we have a left labour govt backed up by radical Scottish nationalism and similar allies in Europe.
> It's also I feel partly a response to an article a few days before Britain is in the midst of a working-class revolt | John Harris.


It's also shit.


----------



## Red O (Jun 20, 2016)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Yeah, the reason I highlighted the section was that Mason correctly identifies a list of genuine WC concerns and then dismises them with a demand that they line up behind the Party that abadoned them and helped create many of the problems in the first place.



And one of the features of the campaign has been the outpouring of contemptuous, anti-democratic sentiment from liberal MC Remainers. Just wouldn't have expected Mason to be part of it.


----------



## treelover (Jun 20, 2016)

killer b said:


> shut the fuck up about the SWP. you're the only person left in the country who even remembers who they were.



You shut the fuck up, they are tiny and generally useless, but sadly they still determine along with the Peoples Assembly what mass campaigns happen in this country, on thursday people who have never heard of them will in effect tell them, the liberal middle classes, etc, they want something different


----------



## killer b (Jun 20, 2016)

What?


----------



## treelover (Jun 20, 2016)

> but reorient itself, stop chasing every fashionable cause SWP style and take on basic issues: housing, social security, ZHC, rogue landlords, workfare, etc.



Note, i said SWP style, the Peoples Assembly could easily say, have set up food banks across the UK, apparently that is according to certain Trots, "social work"

Now reply to my point if you will.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 20, 2016)

treelover said:


> I'm a cautious remainer but its becoming clear that brexit for many poor working class people is a big FU to the comfortably off and a cry for help, sneering at them like many of the liberal left have done is counterproductive. If the result is remain, the wider left shouldn't feel vindicated, triumphalist, etc, but reorient itself, stop chasing every fashionable cause SWP style and take on basic issues: housing, social security, ZHC, rogue landlords, workfare, etc.


Oh fuck off you dull twat


----------



## belboid (Jun 20, 2016)

treelover said:


> the Peoples Assembly could easily say, have set up food banks across the UK,


 lol


----------



## brogdale (Jun 20, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> It's also shit.


But he makes the valid observation that with capital & the media split or ambivalent, they obviously do not perceive any existential threat from either outcome...merely the possible inconvenience of having to conduct their accumulation in a second-best political context.
Although there are undeniably many genuine left leavists, for others the choice does look suspiciously like democracy as entertainment.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 20, 2016)

treelover said:


> Note, i said SWP style, the Peoples Assembly could easily say, have set up food banks across the UK, apparently that is according to certain Trots, "social work"
> 
> Now reply to my point if you will.


You are like a broken pencil


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jun 20, 2016)

Red O said:


> And one of the features of the campaign has been the outpouring of contemptuous, anti-democratic sentiment from liberal MC Remainers. Just wouldn't have expected Mason to be part of it.



I've got some time for Paul Mason but on the referendum he's started off in the wrong place and gone downhill from there. This is a new low however.


----------



## bi0boy (Jun 20, 2016)

skyscraper101 said:


> I just don't want to queue in the non-EU passport lanes when I fly from the UK to other European airports.



They usually have much shorter queues as almost everyone has an EU passport nowadays.


----------



## belboid (Jun 20, 2016)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I've got some time for Paul Mason but on the referendum he's started off in the wrong place and gone downhill from there. This is a new low however.


 actually, he started from a pretty spot on place (actual left leave, no concessions to the racists) and has driven rapidly worse and worse.  At least Owen Jones only held two positions, PM has gone through all three now


----------



## belboid (Jun 20, 2016)

hmm, apparently when told that 'You'll be voting with Thomas Mair, I'll be voting with Jo Cox' it isn't the done thing to reply 'I doubt whether of them are voting, tbh'


----------



## mauvais (Jun 20, 2016)

agricola said:


> Not really; in fact most positive social change has taken place in the aftermath of large scale conflict, disasters or technological advancements that disrupt the usual order of things.  Long-term stability usually results in worsening conditions as costs (edit: to business etc) inexorably rise and those in charge seek to bring about means by which they can be reduced.


My phrasing was crap. So yes, after the crisis but not during it. So for example in the post-WWII rebuilding era, lots of it, but certainly less so during, other than concessions out of necessity. Quite the price to pay though.


----------



## Red O (Jun 20, 2016)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I've got some time for Paul Mason but on the referendum he's started off in the wrong place and gone downhill from there. This is a new low however.



And look who approves of it:


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 20, 2016)

Hmm...

The progressive argument for leaving the EU is not being heard

This kind of call and response thing with articles could go on all day...


----------



## mauvais (Jun 20, 2016)

The39thStep said:


> Projected votes in Manchester show the three most wealthiest boroughs will vote Remain , the poorest Exit
> EU poll: How will Greater Manchester vote in the referendum?


I don't doubt the correlation but the measure is a bit blunt. Some deprived areas in those greens, and vice versa. I live in part of the Bury one, a Labour seat, and there's a few EU flags flying from houses. </anecdotes>


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 20, 2016)

brogdale said:


> But he makes the valid observation that with capital & the media split or ambivalent, they obviously do not perceive any existential threat from either outcome...merely the possible inconvenience of having to conduct their accumulation in a second-best political context.
> Although there are undeniably many genuine left leavists, for others the choice does look suspiciously like democracy as entertainment.


The way that he does it and the content of that happening, he's not in the game.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 20, 2016)

brogdale said:


> But he makes the valid observation that with capital & the media split or ambivalent, they obviously do not perceive any existential threat from either outcome...merely the possible inconvenience of having to conduct their accumulation in a second-best political context.
> Although there are undeniably many genuine left leavists, for others the choice does look suspiciously like democracy as entertainment.


The media is spilt, capital is as well right?


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 20, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> It's also shit.


Actually I quite liked it.
Here's the another analysis of remain and exit voting profiles 
politicalbetting.com  » Blog Archive   » The referendum: The affluent versus the non-affluent summed up in two Populus  polling charts


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 20, 2016)

killer b said:


> shut the fuck up about the SWP. you're the only person left in the country who even remembers who they were.


Can't make my mind up whether the boards are better or worse without the SWP, socialist party, workers power and WSM .


----------



## brogdale (Jun 20, 2016)

The39thStep said:


> Actually I quite liked it.


No acknowledgement of a left exit position, though.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 20, 2016)

mauvais said:


> I don't doubt the correlation but the measure is a bit blunt. Some deprived areas in those greens, and vice versa. I live in part of the Bury one, a Labour seat, and there's a few EU flags flying from houses. </anecdotes>


Yup sketchy data , the interesting issue for me will be to what extent if any the  Labour Remain campaign has in working class areas


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 20, 2016)

mauvais said:


> I don't doubt the correlation but the measure is a bit blunt. Some deprived areas in those greens, and vice versa. I live in part of the Bury one, a Labour seat, and there's a few EU flags flying from houses. </anecdotes>


Missionaries.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 20, 2016)

brogdale said:


> No acknowledgement of a left exit position, though.


Nope and it's interesting that Class Wars academic has taken an abstain position as have some people around the IWCA


----------



## Red O (Jun 20, 2016)

Edit: fuck it, can't get link to work


----------



## brogdale (Jun 20, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> The media is spilt, capital is as well right?


Could form the basis of one, or more (?) threads.
Maybe sloppy thinking on my part...but print media are split, right? Capital...who really knows? 
My view (as you know) is that fincap doesn't really mind whether they exert power through debt over national or supra-national states.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 20, 2016)

The39thStep said:


> Nope and it's interesting that Class Wars academic has taken an abstain position as have some people around the IWCA


Yeah, I'm abstain...but I can see why left exiteers would see Mason's piece as a sell-out.


----------



## steeplejack (Jun 20, 2016)

The39thStep said:


> Nope and it's interesting that Class Wars academic has taken an abstain position as have some people around the IWCA



I take it those hoping for a referendum-special issue of _Mayday_ magazine will be disappointed?


----------



## killer b (Jun 20, 2016)

Capital doesn't appear to be split tbf. Capital is remain all the way - that there's some individual capitalist who've seen 'opportunities' in leave is a different matter.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 20, 2016)

steeplejack said:


> I take it those hoping for a referendum-special issue of _Mayday_ magazine will be disappointed?



Might be a Glastonbury edition to capture the hinterland vote .


----------



## JuanTwoThree (Jun 20, 2016)

Flavour said:


> I'm happy that the "non-revolutionary left" aka reformists aka capitalist apologists don't feel guilty about voting to remain in a supra-state capitalist trade block.



The purity of the idea is admirable but in the context of my living in a country that has a ruling party, for the moment, which is the direct heir to a fascist dictatorship, if you don't mind I'll take "reformists and capitalist apologists" over that.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Jun 20, 2016)

two sheds said:


> *I'd also like to see a return to the pre-Thatcher post-war social contract: 0 to 4% unemployment for 30 years....*



And yet your voting remain? 

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## two sheds (Jun 20, 2016)

No I spoiled the ballot.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 20, 2016)

killer b said:


> Capital doesn't appear to be split tbf. Capital is remain all the way - that there's some individual capitalist who've seen 'opportunities' in leave is a different matter.


I'd imagine that the views of global capital, Asian capital, US capital etc. might have a greater variety of positions than we might be informed about. On the most basic level, the very fact that fincap has permitted the right party of capital to offer this 'choice' to the electorate might suggest the perception that they could work with either outcome.


----------



## belboid (Jun 20, 2016)

brogdale said:


> I'd imagine that the views of global capital, Asian capital, US capital etc. might have a greater variety of positions than we might be informed about. On the most basic level, the very fact that fincap has permitted the right party of capital to offer this 'choice' to the electorate might suggest the perception that they could work with either outcome.


no evidence to support that guess tho. those that have come out have been solidly remain


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 20, 2016)

Blimey , Mayday/platypus/ autonomous Class War/autonomous NE anti fascists are still with us , at least in spirit.



> @Mayday_magazine: @GibbensBilly @PlebLand @SGillLondonUK @PeterTatchell @guardian No i'm not, I'm more a 3rd positionist - whoever u vote for capitalists win.


----------



## redsquirrel (Jun 20, 2016)

Red O said:


> Mason's article seems to be there primarily to promote his apparent belief that the working class isn't the best judge of its own interests.
> 
> Edit: it's completely a response to Harris's infinitely better article.


These days Harris, along with Younge, is the best political commentator the Guardian has.


----------



## coley (Jun 20, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> True.


But if we leave we can get rid of those "bedfellows" at the next GE, if we remain we are stuck with the bedlice forever, and have no doubt, if we remain, the tiny concessions that Cameron has seemingly wrung from the rest of the EU will be struck down in legal challenges within months.
Followed by other pressures for us to 'fall in line'


----------



## coley (Jun 20, 2016)

Dowie said:


> that is what is really annoying me, prominent business leaders all say you should do X and they know what is best for you, this nasty person is voting Y so you shouldn't vote that way because then you'll be supporting a nasty person
> 
> apparently Baroness Warsi has switched sides over a poster - I don't really understand why a poster is relevant to the actual issues, it is surely just an unfortunate symptom of having some arseholes supporting one particular side, switching sides over a non issue like that just seems ridiculous, if you actually believe in your position the fact that some arseholes will also vote to support it (albeit for very different reasons) shouldn't be reason to change



Baroness Warsi is an unelected nonentity closely allied to to Cameron & cronies, nobody ever really believed her 'leave' credentials, hopefully (amongst the remainders) her defection was supposed to come as hand grenade amongst the leave camp, more of a damp squib.


----------



## coley (Jun 21, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Small lot of pro-nazis and a lot of smug liberals. will that do?


And the odd wandering individuals, totally in the dark


----------



## coley (Jun 21, 2016)

weltweit said:


> I watched Cameron's session on QT this morning, still amazed to find people in the audience who are don't knows, this late in the game I would have thought people would at least have a leaning in or out.


If I had a smidgin of doubt Cameron's performance would have eliminated it, 
Out, bliddy out!


----------



## coley (Jun 21, 2016)

weltweit said:


> Ouch, don't do that !!  Leave is the disruptors option, there will be a hullabaloo and much gnashing of teeth if Britain votes leave !! Is the status quo so very bad?



Yes, next question?


----------



## Dowie (Jun 21, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> How come you always use hyperbole as a first rather than a last resort.
> 
> I don't blame it on your politics, by the way. I blame it on your proven inability to actually engage in reasoned debate with anyone who doesn't agree with you.



No I'm just not willing to engage in a wider debate on the general topic with a particular poster, the point I made in this thread doesn't depend on my views on the issues surrounding brexit or whether I'm for or against.


----------



## coley (Jun 21, 2016)

Louis MacNeice said:


> In my life time the post 'post-war settlement' status quo, has seen a shift from labour to capital which has hurt the provision of housing, health care, access to the law, workers rights, income distribution and progressive taxation (to name a few areas...other people please feel free to add your own).
> 
> So the status quo, which the EU was designed and continues to defend and promote, is bad and promises worse. It is not the saviour of refugees, the protector of women's right and the champion of organised labour that some on the remain side would have us believe.
> 
> ...



Nice one, succinctly stated.


----------



## coley (Jun 21, 2016)

weltweit said:


> The NHS is excellent, why would you put it down? As to workers rights, the social chapter, paid holidays, parental leave, working time etc have come out of the EU, how much of that would a UK tory party have brought to the commons? .. not much or none at all would be my bet. And a UK tory party is what we are looking at, emboldened if they get a leave vote to tear up the "red tape" which they so fondly name workers rights.
> 
> 
> More tory years, the likelihood of a Scottish vote to leave with all that means for reduced non tory MPs in Westminster, I see an ugly tory future which I am pretty sure neither you nor I want.
> ...



Most of the WC rights were won by the workers not the soddin EU, 
I see a UK after Brexit where the WC can shaft the Tories and regain a voice in UK politics.


----------



## coley (Jun 21, 2016)

weltweit said:


> No argument with that except to add that concerted effort across the EU stands a chance of benefitting more people than just UK actions.


What "concerted effort"?  remember the French burning our lamb exports? The French WC look after themselves,


----------



## coley (Jun 21, 2016)

skyscraper101 said:


> I just don't want to queue in the non-EU passport lanes when I fly from the UK to other European airports.


Personally? It would be a small price to pay in order to be rid of their destructive federalist ambitions.


----------



## coley (Jun 21, 2016)

gosub said:


> I actually think Urban is holding up quite well.  We haven't been astro turfed - there is independent thought here.  Compare it with facebook where discourse seems limited to sharing someone elses postcard of idea and then largely ignoring the responses (usually the people whom disagree explaining why)



Actually surprised you do FB.


----------



## gosub (Jun 21, 2016)

coley said:


> Actually surprised you do FB.


How else do you remember birthdays?


----------



## coley (Jun 21, 2016)

8den said:


>



Who's Martin fletcher?


----------



## coley (Jun 21, 2016)

smokedout said:


> Am only halfway through this thread so apologies if this has been addressed but this is just horseshit and seems to be everywhere.  It's horseshit fot two reasons, firstly the claim that a Johnson/Gove/Farage? take over is inevitable in the case of Brexit, and secondly that this is impossible - or that the EU will save us from it - in the case of Remain.
> 
> Fuck the clowns, look at who you're lining up with - Cameron, Blair, the IMF, Obama, the EU themselves, architects of neoliberalism, fortress Europe and racist war.  You seriously believe that Cameron and Osborne are better than Boris and Gove?  They are the same, cut from the same cloth, with the same aims and beliefs.  Only difference is that Cameron/New Labour/US/EU/IMF alliance has better PR and more power.  Gove, Boris and Farage, bring them fucking on, they look more beatable than the current set up.



Spot on, thank you, you bunch of buggers now depart.


----------



## coley (Jun 21, 2016)

gosub said:


> How else do you remember birthdays?



I don't


----------



## coley (Jun 21, 2016)

D'wards said:


> Confucius say Cameron may well resign if its a Brexit - hmmm


Hmm, I would prefer Hari Kari,
No, I jest, he has a family after all.


----------



## 8den (Jun 21, 2016)

coley said:


> Who's Martin fletcher?



Former times Foreign Editor.


----------



## coley (Jun 21, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> Yes, we wouldn't want to do anything to upset the market(s) would we.
> 
> Mind you, at least there's no pretence in this line, all power the market, liberalism clear for all to see. The same liberalism that is currently attacking workers and hitting the welfare state.



The only market the *UK remain camp is* interested in is the financial markets, look at the way these bastards (oops our elected government) has allowed our heavy manufacturing to go to the wall, yet no information on TIPPs or the agreements on financial services brokered with the Chinese has seen the light of day.
I am sick of being patronised by billionaires and their political lapdogs.
Vote out, and bite the lapdogs where it hurts, in their pockets, they lost their balls in 75!


----------



## coley (Jun 21, 2016)

The39thStep said:


> Projected votes in Manchester show the three most wealthiest boroughs will vote Remain , the poorest Exit
> EU poll: How will Greater Manchester vote in the referendum?


Whey, given Tory policies over the last few years, we will voting out


----------



## Lurdan (Jun 21, 2016)

In normal elections I'm an abstentionist because I have every confidence in the ability of our ruling class to rearrange the deckchairs without any complicity from me. I don't myself spoil my ballot or vote spunking cock because I don't see inversion as rejection, but whatever.

This referendum of course is not like an election. Rather than a choice between left Twix or right Twix we are presented with the prospect, whoever 'wins', of having the full Mars Bar thrust up us. Perhaps if we are are lucky they will have reduced the size again "to take account of concerns about obesity".

So on Thursday morning I will not be abstaining.

Instead I intend to take a crap. While I am fully aware that it's likely to be the only chance I will have in my lifetime to have a crap on that particular morning, it seems a little pointless to shout "up yours brussels" as I let fly, since I have no intention of eating any the night before. I shall break with my customary practise and spoil my toilet paper.

Although I think we're coming from slightly different places I think Bahnhof Strasse has it exactly right


Bahnhof Strasse said:


> FUCK SHIT UP



I don't see the outcome of this farrago as making it any more or less likely, or any more or less possible, for that to happen.


----------



## skyscraper101 (Jun 21, 2016)

Breaking news....

David Beckham backs Remain


----------



## brogdale (Jun 21, 2016)

skyscraper101 said:


> Breaking news....
> 
> David Beckham backs Remain



Front of Guardian site...


----------



## skyscraper101 (Jun 21, 2016)

But what does Gary Neville think?


----------



## JuanTwoThree (Jun 21, 2016)

Out of the box


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 21, 2016)

skyscraper101 said:


> But what does Gary Neville think?


Who cares?


----------



## JimW (Jun 21, 2016)

Still, he's never shown any capability of keeping us in Europe before, so no big deal.


----------



## hot air baboon (Jun 21, 2016)

...at least Beckham won something in Europe unlike Cameron...


----------



## skyscraper101 (Jun 21, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> Who cares?



I would quite like the opinions of all the Class of 92 to be honest.


----------



## hot air baboon (Jun 21, 2016)

..what would Bobby Moore do...?


----------



## ignatious (Jun 21, 2016)

skyscraper101 said:


> I would quite like the opinions of all the Class of 92 to be honest.


Well, Phil Neville's certainly got previous for 'out'.


----------



## skyscraper101 (Jun 21, 2016)

hot air baboon said:


> ..what would Bobby Moore do...?



Look in at the local


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 21, 2016)




----------



## Sprocket. (Jun 21, 2016)

skyscraper101 said:


> Breaking news....
> 
> David Beckham backs Remain




At least he can place a cross in a box.
Unlike some last night!


----------



## Wilf (Jun 21, 2016)

ignatious said:


> Well, Phil Neville's certainly got previous for 'out'.



I seem to remember a picture of _Paul Scholes_ where he's definitely 'out'.


----------



## eoin_k (Jun 21, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> You're stay? Forget your teeth, the votes count the same.



I'm still undecided but will probably vote to remain. I agree with a lot of the arguments against the EU; you would be a fool not to. That said, I can't see brexit resulting in any sort of step forward in the current climate. It leading to more working class power in this country seems no more credible to me than an effective trans-European movement for a social Europe. Unsurprisingly, we have been given a shit choice.

If I vote to remain it will be for much more pragmatic reasons: family living near the border in Ireland, friends and relatives whose status in the UK might be adversely affected. That doesn't mean that I don't take offence at those in the remain camp who take it for granted that their choice is more progressive or ethical than that of their opponents.


----------



## YouSir (Jun 21, 2016)

eoin_k said:


> I'm still undecided but will probably vote to remain. I agree with a lot of the arguments against the EU; you would be a fool not to. That said, I can't see brexit resulting in any sort of step forward in the current climate. It leading to more working class power in this country seems no more credible to me than an effective trans-European movement for a social Europe. Unsurprisingly, we have been given a shit choice.
> 
> If I vote to remain it will be for much more pragmatic reasons: family living near the border in Ireland, friends and relatives whose status in the UK might be adversely affected. That doesn't mean that I don't take offence at those in the remain camp who take it for granted that their choice is more progressive or ethical than that of their opponents.



For me it's less about some vague notion of a workers resurgence in the current climate and more about how determined the EU may be to make it worse for us a few years down the road. The opening markets mentality, the attacks on Greece, the pro austerity stuff - it's bad enough to have a current government that is as bad as ours. Never mind being member of an organization that aspires to the same attitudes Europe wide.


----------



## 8den (Jun 21, 2016)




----------



## J Ed (Jun 21, 2016)

8den said:


>



Except the bodies within the EU which have a democratic deficit aren't remotely comparable to the monarchy, and plenty of people who are voting Leave (especially on here) are Republicans anyway.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 21, 2016)

and charles is somehow wearing the wrong hat- thats I religious mans hat by my eye. Like a bish and his mitre


----------



## YouSir (Jun 21, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> and charles is somehow wearing the wrong hat- thats I religious mans hat by my eye. Like a bish and his mitre



Finally given up on his royal dreams and decided to get a desk job as Pope. His mum's delighted, he'll be moving out of home.


----------



## two sheds (Jun 21, 2016)

I hear the queen's physician has come out for legalizing assisted dying, Brenda needs to watch her cornflakes.


----------



## 8den (Jun 21, 2016)

J Ed said:


> Except the bodies within the EU which have a democratic deficit aren't remotely comparable to the monarchy,.




What about the House of Lords


----------



## J Ed (Jun 21, 2016)

8den said:


> What about the House of Lords



'There has to be one of these awful memes that will work, just have to find the right one...


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 21, 2016)

EU commissioners are not elected.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jun 21, 2016)

two sheds said:


> I hear the queen's physician has come out for legalizing assisted dying, Brenda needs to watch her cornflakes.




They killed her Grandad as well, she really does need to be careful.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 21, 2016)

they too shall be mining salt


----------



## J Ed (Jun 21, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> EU commissioners are not elected.



So far in this referendum I have found that people generally do not see a lack of knowledge as an obstacle to being patronising.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 21, 2016)

coley said:


> But if we leave we can get rid of those "bedfellows" at the next GE, if we remain we are stuck with the bedlice forever, and have no doubt, if we remain, the tiny concessions that Cameron has seemingly wrung from the rest of the EU will be struck down in legal challenges within months.
> Followed by other pressures for us to 'fall in line'



And at the next GE we replace bedlice with more bedlice, albeit with differently-coloured skins.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 21, 2016)

Dowie said:


> No I'm just not willing to engage in a wider debate on the general topic with a particular poster, the point I made in this thread doesn't depend on my views on the issues surrounding brexit or whether I'm for or against.



Except how you engage with that poster is how you engage with anyone who questions your opinions.


----------



## Biscuitician (Jun 21, 2016)

Actually the UK has 60 million lawmakers and potential lawmakers, it's just they don't have a say because hooray for representative democracy.

For all the say I have in society and all the power I'm given by the bourgeoisie, I might as well be governed by the EU, they are no more distant than Westminster.


----------



## J Ed (Jun 21, 2016)

J Ed said:


> So far in this referendum I have found that people generally do not see a lack of knowledge as an obstacle to being patronising.



Left wingers for Brexit need to wake up to what they're about to do

This person has a PhD...

Yet another one to file away into the 'liberal who thinks he is left-wing chastising socialists for actually being socialist' category.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 21, 2016)

J Ed said:


> Left wingers for Brexit need to wake up to what they're about to do
> 
> This person has a PhD...
> 
> Yet another one to file away into the 'liberal who thinks he is left-wing chastising socialists for actually being socialist' category.


no, he doesn't have a phd. he is studying for a phd


----------



## J Ed (Jun 21, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> no, he doesn't have a phd. he is studying for a phd
> 
> View attachment 88676



His arguments are terrible. Really awful.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 21, 2016)

8den said:


>


we have got rid of that unelected body before...


----------



## eoin_k (Jun 21, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> EU commissioners are not elected.



The pertinence of this post became much clearer when I clicked on 'show ignored content'. What a muppet.


----------



## discokermit (Jun 21, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> we have got rid of that unelected body before...


''get a hat on the head, win a goldfish!''


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 21, 2016)

eoin_k said:


> The pertinence of this post became much clearer when I clicked on 'show ignored content'. What a muppet.



Who the fuck are you? Have we ever spoken?


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Jun 21, 2016)

For the record, I am now veering from Leave to Abstain, like the indecisive wanker I surely am.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 21, 2016)

Fozzie Bear said:


> For the record, I am now veering from Leave to Abstain, like the indecisive wanker I surely am.



How come?


----------



## two sheds (Jun 21, 2016)

Don't waste your vote - this is a precious once in a generation opportunity. 

Spoil the ballot


----------



## weltweit (Jun 21, 2016)

Fozzie Bear said:


> For the record, I am now veering from Leave to Abstain, like the indecisive wanker I surely am.


Any specific reason?


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Jun 21, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> How come?



Well basically the failure of the left (me included) to mount a cohesive Lexit campaign. It's become a referendum on immigration, essentially.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 21, 2016)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Well basically the failure of the left (me included) to mount a cohesive Lexit campaign. It's become a referendum on immigration, essentially.



I'm not sure I follow. What are the reasons you think we would be better inside the EU than out?


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Jun 21, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> I'm not sure I follow. What are the reasons you think we would be better inside the EU than out?



I am not voting to stay in the EU, so I'm not sure why you are asking me that.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 21, 2016)

Fozzie Bear said:


> I am not voting to stay in the EU, so I'm not sure why you are asking me that.



Well to abstain is to say you aren't too bothered if we stay or not. I'll rephrase the question. Why do you think that staying in the EU is no different from leaving? What has changed your mind from thinking we would be better off out?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 21, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> Well to abstain is to say you aren't too bothered if we stay or not. I'll rephrase the question. Why do you think that staying in the EU is no different from leaving? What has changed your mind from thinking we would be better off out?



You have misunderstood his post, completely.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 21, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> You have misunderstood his post, completely.



Maybe so. From what I gather he was voting out but now is abstaining. Have I got that wrong?


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Jun 21, 2016)

Fozzie Bear said:


> I am not voting to stay in the EU, so I'm not sure why you are asking me that.


The cohesive Lexit plan doesn't need a deadline. It's clear things are going nowhere on that front- but when/if we ever stop screaming WHATS YOUR PLAN across the fence, at that point I'd say taking on the govt has more precedent than reforming the EU.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Jun 21, 2016)

I think that the EU is anti-democratic, corrupt and unreformable. I think its trajectory is veering away from any kind of social progressive values into overt neoliberalism.

However the Leave campaign has focussed almost completely on a jingoistic attack on foreigners, immigrants etc. A victory for Leave would be a victory for that.

Both options on the ballot are bad options. So bollocks to it.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Jun 21, 2016)

diamarzipan said:


> The cohesive Lexit plan doesn't need a deadline. It's clear things are going nowhere on that front- but when/if we ever stop screaming WHATS YOUR PLAN across the fence, at that point I'd say taking on the govt has more precedent than reforming the EU.



I think it's been a missed opportunity but perhaps it was optimistic of me to think anything else would happen.


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Jun 21, 2016)

Fozzie Bear said:


> I think that the EU is anti-democratic, corrupt and unreformable. I think its trajectory is veering away from any kind of social progressive values into overt neoliberalism.
> 
> However the Leave campaign has focussed almost completely on a jingoistic attack on foreigners, immigrants etc. A victory for Leave would be a victory for that.
> 
> Both options on the ballot are bad options. So bollocks to it.


Either option would be "a victory" for cunty forces. I still think it's important to be practical, prepare the ground for a time when the working class are a bit more up for action. On a personal note my situation couldn't get much worse and hasn't improved since my mum, like me was a single mum in the 80's. If it's a 25 year fight, bring it. Having said that I'll be voting leave with a sickly tummy on Thursday


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 21, 2016)

Fozzie Bear said:


> A victory for Leave would be a victory for that.



I guess this is the crux of my disagreement with many remain/abstainers. I don't care what other exiters have as their reasons because, in or out, the Tories still have a tiny majority (and now a split party).

Leaving will not empower the right as some have argued, because there is no feasible mechanism through which power can be exercised at this stage. They are weak. We will see nothing but deadlock for the tories in the next few years, whatever the result of the referendum.


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Jun 21, 2016)

Fozzie Bear said:


> I think it's been a missed opportunity but perhaps it was optimistic of me to think anything else would happen.


Agreed, it really was.


----------



## YouSir (Jun 21, 2016)

Fozzie Bear said:


> I think that the EU is anti-democratic, corrupt and unreformable. I think its trajectory is veering away from any kind of social progressive values into overt neoliberalism.
> 
> However the Leave campaign has focussed almost completely on a jingoistic attack on foreigners, immigrants etc. A victory for Leave would be a victory for that.
> 
> Both options on the ballot are bad options. So bollocks to it.



So you're not voting on your own opinions so much as how loud other people have been about theirs?

Not talking about you personally but a fair few on the left seem to have abandoned their own beliefs just because the right have theirs. Really dismal capitulation.


----------



## hot air baboon (Jun 21, 2016)

Fozzie Bear said:


> However the Leave campaign has focussed almost completely on a jingoistic attack on foreigners, immigrants etc.



...it was always on the cards ....as was that Remain would end up the sort of squalid campaign of threats and blackmail that'd make Ronnie & Reggie blush with shame....


----------



## Wilf (Jun 21, 2016)

Fozzie Bear said:


> I think that the EU is anti-democratic, corrupt and unreformable. I think its trajectory is veering away from any kind of social progressive values into overt neoliberalism.
> 
> However the Leave campaign has focussed almost completely on a jingoistic attack on foreigners, immigrants etc. A victory for Leave would be a victory for that.
> 
> Both options on the ballot are bad options. So bollocks to it.


That's about it for me as well. If I could convince myself that there would be some kind of opportunity for working class politics in amongst a leave victory, I'd hold my nose against the stink of farage and vote for it.  Trouble is, I can't.  A leave victory _might_ open things up, create some kind of 'progressive' opportunity, but to be honest, the opposite is at least as likely.  But that doesn't push me into the arms of remain neoliberalism, so the only honest thing I can do is abstain.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 21, 2016)

hot air baboon said:


> ...it was always on the cards ....as was that Remain would end up the sort of squalid campaign of threats and blackmail that'd make Ronnie & Reggie blush with shame....


todays sun headline and story is fucked up. I mean they've always been mendacious shits who hate immigrants only slightly more than they hate the working class but todays was a 'classic' of the genre


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Jun 21, 2016)

diamarzipan said:


> Either option would be "a victory" for cunty forces. I still think it's important to be practical, prepare the ground for a time when the working class are a bit more up for action. On a personal note my situation couldn't get much worse and hasn't improved since my mum, like me was a single mum in the 80's. If it's a 25 year fight, bring it. Having said that I'll be voting leave with a sickly tummy on Thursday



Yeah that all makes perfect sense...


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Jun 21, 2016)

YouSir said:


> So you're not voting on your own opinions so much as how loud other people have been about theirs?
> 
> Not talking about you personally but a fair few on the left seem to have abandoned their own beliefs just because the right have theirs. Really dismal capitulation.



I think this is an instance where people's opinions don't exist in a vacuum. The wider context is important. The terrain has shifted since the beginning of the campaign. It hasn't shifted in a progressive direction and if progressives are losing ground now that will only intensify after a Leave victory.

It won't be much of a consolation prize to be able to say "Oh no I voted for the nice Brexit, not the racist Brexit".


----------



## Wilf (Jun 21, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> I guess this is the crux of my disagreement with many remain/abstainers. I don't care what other exiters have as their reasons because, in or out, the Tories still have a tiny majority (and now a split party).
> 
> Leaving will not empower the right as some have argued, because there is no feasible mechanism through which power can be exercised at this stage. They are weak. We will see nothing but deadlock for the tories in the next few years, whatever the result of the referendum.


 The Tories have their usual divide over Europe, brought to the boil obviously over the referendum ... and yes, you are right, probably won't be settled by the result. But if you want to think about it in terms of parliamentary forces, the left/social democracy doesn't even have a _party_.  Labour has been the cutting edge of neoliberalism for a couple of decades and hasn't been restored to a social democratic position by corbyn (_he's_ a social democrat obviously and most of the members probably are, but as a functioning party Labour is still fighting internal battles and is nowhere near having been returned to a managed/kinder capitalism).  IN terms of the ticklist of things needed to win elections the Tories have plenty more ticks than Labour.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 21, 2016)

I voted for a cosey feeling inside.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Jun 21, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> I guess this is the crux of my disagreement with many remain/abstainers. I don't care what other exiters have as their reasons because, in or out, the Tories still have a tiny majority (and now a split party).
> 
> Leaving will not empower the right as some have argued, because there is no feasible mechanism through which power can be exercised at this stage. They are weak. We will see nothing but deadlock for the tories in the next few years, whatever the result of the referendum.



One possibility is a successful Leave campaign, on the terms of the right, will be a huge boost for the right wing in general. We know that because of first past the post that splits in major parties are incredibly unlikely. So it is possible that the various factions will continue to hold their noses and unite to shaft the rest of us with their newfound independence. Which is ultimately their plan whether we leave or stay.

Paul Mason saying we should vote Remain and then unite behind Jeremy Corbyn is la-la land.


----------



## inva (Jun 21, 2016)

Fozzie Bear said:


> I think this is an instance where people's opinions don't exist in a vacuum. The wider context is important. The terrain has shifted since the beginning of the campaign. It hasn't shifted in a progressive direction and if progressives are losing ground now that will only intensify after a Leave victory.
> 
> It won't be much of a consolation prize to be able to say "Oh no I voted for the nice Brexit, not the racist Brexit".


has the terrain shifted? I wasn't aware of progressive voices having any prominence at any point...


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 21, 2016)

inva said:


> has the terrain shifted? I wasn't aware of progressive voices having any prominence at any point...


didn't you hear the mewing in the background?


----------



## inva (Jun 21, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> didn't you hear the mewing in the background?


i thought it was the hum


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 21, 2016)

Fozzie Bear said:


> One possibility is a successful Leave campaign, on the terms of the right, will be a huge boost for the right wing in general. We know that because of first past the post that splits in major parties are incredibly unlikely. So it is possible that the various factions will continue to hold their noses and unite to shaft the rest of us with their newfound independence. Which is ultimately their plan whether we leave or stay.
> 
> Paul Mason saying we should vote Remain and then unite behind Jeremy Corbyn is la-la land.


tbh if it's exit i wouldn't be surprised if net migration is +500k for a couple of years as departing will become more enticing if johnson and his ilk get their lizard hands on power


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 21, 2016)

inva said:


> i thought it was the hum


no, mewing


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 21, 2016)

Fozzie Bear said:


> One possibility is a successful Leave campaign, on the terms of the right, will be a huge boost for the right wing in general. We know that because of first past the post that splits in major parties are incredibly unlikely. So it is possible that the various factions will continue to hold their noses and unite to shaft the rest of us with their newfound independence. Which is ultimately their plan whether we leave or stay.



Even if the result of a leave vote is the Tories all pulling together (I don't see it, however), how will they do any better than they are doing this Parliament? Look at how many u-turns they have had to make recently. Things are beginning to shift against them. The electoral arithmetic of the commons at the moment makes brexit much less risky than it might have been under other circumstances.


----------



## YouSir (Jun 21, 2016)

Fozzie Bear said:


> I think this is an instance where people's opinions don't exist in a vacuum. The wider context is important. The terrain has shifted since the beginning of the campaign. It hasn't shifted in a progressive direction and if progressives are losing ground now that will only intensify after a Leave victory.
> 
> It won't be much of a consolation prize to be able to say "Oh no I voted for the nice Brexit, not the racist Brexit".



I doubt it'll be much of a consolation prize to say you voted to remain to show you weren't a racist rather than because the EU has any value either.

And the wider context is important, like what path the EU and us in it will follow. I don't believe the right is on the verge of controlling the entire population, what power it has can be fought. Will have to be fought in fact, regardless of the result. This will be the last vote on the EU for decades to come though and the weight of interest it contains from capital can't easily be fought - it certainly hasn't so far. Not a chance to be wasted.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Jun 21, 2016)

inva said:


> has the terrain shifted? I wasn't aware of progressive voices having any prominence at any point...



In the absence of a voice on the left, the terrain has shifted even further to the right.


----------



## Wilf (Jun 21, 2016)

I've got the window open and heard an amplified voice which I thought was a referendum megaphone. When I heard it properly I could tell it was 'Warning, this vehicle is reversing!"  Not sure if the Good Lord was trying to send me a message for Thursday after I announced my abstentionist position?


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Jun 21, 2016)

YouSir said:


> I doubt it'll be much of a consolation prize to say you voted to remain to show you weren't a racist rather than because the EU has any value either.
> 
> And the wider context is important, like what path the EU and us in it will follow. I don't believe the right is on the verge of controlling the entire population, what power it has can be fought. Will have to be fought in fact, regardless of the result. This will be the last vote on the EU for decades to come though and the weight of interest it contains from capital can't easily be fought - it certainly hasn't so far. Not a chance to be wasted.



Yeah I agree. I'm posting here to persuade myself as much as anything else.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Jun 21, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> Even if the result of a leave vote is the Tories all pulling together (I don't see it, however), how will they do any better than they are doing this Parliament? Look at how many u-turns they have had to make recently. Things are beginning to shift against them. The electoral arithmetic of the commons at the moment makes brexit much less risky than it might have been under other circumstances.



Do you honestly think that a Leave win will lead to a Labour victory in 2020? I can't see it myself.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 21, 2016)

It seems to me that fear of what the Tories might do after leaving is a main driving motivation for many on the left who want to stay/abstain. I think these fears are unfounded.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 21, 2016)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Do you honestly think that a Leave win will lead to a Labour victory in 2020? I can't see it myself.


what about a labour victory in 2016?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 21, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> It seems to me that fear of what the Tories might do after leaving is a main driving motivation for many on the left who want to stay/abstain.


collective suicide a la jonestown?





> I think these fears are unfounded.


bah


----------



## inva (Jun 21, 2016)

Fozzie Bear said:


> In the absence of a voice on the left, the terrain has shifted even further to the right.


it's not something I've noticed. it's seemed to be as right wing and argued in the same terms as it was at the start to me. the official campaigns were never going to be anything else, but I still think there is something we can work with and draw upon in the event of leaving if we are willing to.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Jun 21, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> what about a labour victory in 2016?



Well there was Sadiq, but the London Mayor is usually a bit out of kilter...


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 21, 2016)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Well there was Sadiq, but the London Mayor is usually a bit out of kilter...


yeh i meant that there could well be a vote of no confidence in the government and who knows which way that could fall


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 21, 2016)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Do you honestly think that a Leave win will lead to a Labour victory in 2020? I can't see it myself.



I don't think the result of the 2020 election will depend directly on this referendum. What happens between now and 2020, and how the labour party respond to those events is what counts. Even in my infinite wisdom I'm not sure I can predict the future like that.


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Jun 21, 2016)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Yeah that all makes perfect sense...



Woah sarcastic urban backed up by likes. was my entire comment wank or a specific part  


inva said:


> it's not something I've noticed. it's seemed to be as right wing and argued in the same terms as it was at the start to me. the official campaigns were never going to be anything else, but I still think there is something we can work with and draw upon in the event of leaving if we are willing to.


fwiw I braved the terror of Facebook comments on a few ref related things and as far as I could see for every one overtly racist comment there was at least ten re the EU not being democratic. Anecdotal I know but it was Facebook. I've not noticed it getting worse at all but the fear  my remain lefty friends seem to be experiencing re anti immigration sentiment is through the roof.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Jun 21, 2016)

diamarzipan said:


> Woah sarcastic urban backed up by likes. was my entire comment wank or a specific part
> 
> fwiw I braved the terror of Facebook comments on a few ref related things and as far as I could see for every one overtly racist comment there was at least ten re the EU not being democratic. Anecdotal I know but it was Facebook. I've not noticed it getting worse at all but the fear  my remain lefty friends seem to be experiencing re anti immigration sentiment is through the roof.



Ah dammit - no I _actually meant_ that what you said made perfect sense!


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Jun 21, 2016)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Ah dammit - no I _actually meant_ that what you said made perfect sense!


Ah, Sorry. it's turbulent on these boards, misread your tone


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 21, 2016)




----------



## eoin_k (Jun 21, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> Who the fuck are you? Have we ever spoken?



Sorry, I didn't make myself clear. I was referring to 8den with the muppet comment. Before I saw his posts it looked like you were just shouting at the internet about un-elected European Commissioners.


----------



## editor (Jun 21, 2016)

Unexpected.


----------



## editor (Jun 21, 2016)

I can remember having to fill in carnets when we crossed borders with the band gear. Fuck they were a pain in the arse.


----------



## discokermit (Jun 21, 2016)

editor said:


> Unexpected.



why?


----------



## discokermit (Jun 21, 2016)

editor said:


> I can remember having to fill in carnets when we crossed borders with the band gear. Fuck they were a pain in the arse.


this is a massive concern to the working class. it's all we talk about in the workshop.


----------



## editor (Jun 21, 2016)

discokermit said:


> why?


I would have thought Clarkson would have been a full on_ Brexiteer. _


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Jun 21, 2016)

Who would have guessed that the millionaire friend and neighbour of the Camerons would be in the Remain camp?


----------



## editor (Jun 21, 2016)

discokermit said:


> this is a massive concern to the working class. it's all we talk about in the workshop.


Oh gosh. Now, isn't that such a smart arse comment. Because everyone who plays in a band that gets a gig in Europe is middle class, yes? What the fuck is your point here?


----------



## inva (Jun 21, 2016)

editor said:


> I would have thought Clarkson would have been a full on_ Brexiteer. _


i think I remember reading that he's a friend of Cameron, if that's true it might have something to do with it


----------



## editor (Jun 21, 2016)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Who would have guessed that the millionaire friend and neighbour of the Camerons would be in the Remain camp?


Not all of his friends are Remainers, y'know. Still, I think that's enough Clarkson for now.


----------



## Dowie (Jun 21, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> Except how you engage with that poster is how you engage with anyone who questions your opinions.



not particularly, no

part of the reason why I don't want to waste time engaging with that poster is because of how I've seen him engage with other posters on here. His initial questioning was side tracking from the point I entered the thread to make and it would inevitably end up in a bunch of time wasting tit for tat posting... it took seven posts just to make it clear to him that I had no wish to enter a wider discussion with him in the first place. You both seem to have more free time to waste posting on here than I do.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 21, 2016)

clarkeson may give it the bigot but at the end of the day he's loaded and doesn't want to have to queue to long at the port to go nurberg ring or wherever it might be. Le mans or whatever.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 21, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> clarkeson may give it the bigot but at the end of the day he's loaded and doesn't want to have to queue to long at the port to go nurberg ring or wherever it might be. Le mans or whatever.


Probably more a reflection of what his present employer wants?


----------



## discokermit (Jun 21, 2016)

editor said:


> I would have thought Clarkson would have been a full on_ Brexiteer. _


house owner, social class (a?), foreign holidays, all point to remain. how are you surprised? he's voting with his class.


----------



## laptop (Jun 21, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> It seems to me that fear of what the Tories might do after leaving is a main driving motivation for many on the left who want to stay/abstain. I think these fears are unfounded.


You WANT them to be unfounded. For the purposes of arguing your position.


----------



## YouSir (Jun 21, 2016)

laptop said:


> You WANT them to be unfounded. For the purposes of arguing your position.



What's their foundation then? The makeup of parliament won't alter, the Tory government won't be extended, striking doctors, left campaigners, people who're anti austerity - they won't just disappear. How does the fight change from what it currently is? Some issues may become a bit more immediate, but they will be issues, not dictats straight from Johnson and Farage's bunker.

Even with a Remain vote Tories will look to continue pushing their agenda, it'll just be a different faction of the party. The EU won't step in either way.


----------



## gosub (Jun 21, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Probably more a reflection of what his present employer wants?



If you read his articles, he has always had a soft spot for Europe.   Extending it to the EU allows him to continue his highly profitable penchant for racially aggravated violence.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 21, 2016)

gosub said:


> *If you read his articles*, he has always had a soft spot for Europe.   Extending it to the EU allows him to continue his highly profitable penchant for racially aggravated violence.


----------



## gosub (Jun 21, 2016)

brogdale said:


>



Happily admit to being a Sunday Times reader.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 21, 2016)

eoin_k said:


> Sorry, I didn't make myself clear. I was referring to 8den with the muppet comment. Before I saw his posts it looked like you were just shouting at the internet about un-elected European Commissioners.



Hehe. Actually I can see that now. Apologies for being sharp with you. See this is what the referendum is doing to us.

 "...and the comissioner declared that Urbanites were to be scattered assunder to the four corners of the board, destined to an eternity of mutual misunderstanding."


----------



## brogdale (Jun 21, 2016)

gosub said:


> Happily admit to being a Sunday Times reader.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 21, 2016)

laptop said:


> You WANT them to be unfounded. For the purposes of arguing your position.



I've asked several people over several threads what the mechanism for increased right wing power post-exit is, and I'm yet to get an answer. I'm open to being convinced.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 21, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> I've asked several people over several threads what the mechanism for increased right wing power post-exit is, and I'm yet to get an answer. I'm open to being convinced.


brexit -> goodbye scotland -> permanent tory majority in england and wales and the six counties


----------



## Idris2002 (Jun 21, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> brexit -> goodbye scotland -> permanent tory majority in england and wales and the six counties


I reckon the sick counties are more likely to get lost in the shuffle.


----------



## weltweit (Jun 21, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> brexit -> goodbye scotland -> permanent tory majority in england and wales and the six counties


Indeed, as a remain voter that is once of my worries.
Of course it was pointed out to me that Scotland may still exit even without a leave vote.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 21, 2016)

weltweit said:


> Indeed, as a remain voter that is once of my worries.
> Of course it was pointed out to me that Scotland may still exit even without a leave vote.


we'll see


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Jun 21, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> brexit -> goodbye scotland -> permanent tory majority in england and wales and the six counties


If it's any consolation Scotland appear to intend to piss that up against the wall by joining the EU again anyway. Presumably the eurozone too. Woo.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 21, 2016)

diamarzipan said:


> If it's any consolation Scotland appear to intend to piss that up against the wall by joining the EU again anyway. Presumably the eurozone too. Woo.


the population of scotland would double in weeks.


----------



## smokedout (Jun 21, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> brexit -> goodbye scotland -> permanent tory majority in england and wales and the six counties



are there any parliamentary democracies anywhere (that don't rig elections) where one party has enjoyed a permanent majority?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 21, 2016)

smokedout said:


> are there any parliamentary democracies anywhere (that don't rig elections) where one party has enjoyed a permanent majority?


the mexican institutional revolutionary party enjoyed great success from its foundation until very recently

oh: and the six counties of course for many, many years


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Jun 21, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> the population of scotland would double in weeks.



I'm fully prepared, I didn't throw my refugees welcome banner away from last year so dinnae fash.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 21, 2016)

diamarzipan said:


> I'm fully prepared, I didn't throw my refugees welcome banner away from last year so dinnae fash.


i'll use it as a blanket over my sleeping bag when i flee to the north


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jun 21, 2016)

smokedout said:


> are there any parliamentary democracies anywhere (that don't rig elections) where one party has enjoyed a permanent majority?


Japan comes close to that situation.


----------



## smokedout (Jun 21, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> the mexican institutional revolutionary party enjoyed great success from its foundation until very recently



wikipedia says they cheated


----------



## eoin_k (Jun 21, 2016)

smokedout said:


> are there any parliamentary democracies anywhere (*that don't rig elections*) where one party has enjoyed a permanent majority?


Have you not been paying attention to the recent 'electoral reforms'.


----------



## smokedout (Jun 21, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Japan comes close to that situation.



but no cigar


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 21, 2016)

smokedout said:


> wikipedia says they cheated


----------



## laptop (Jun 21, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> I've asked several people over several threads what the mechanism for increased right wing power post-exit is, and I'm yet to get an answer. I'm open to being convinced.


Eh?

The whole point of exit, for their funders, is to get rid of workers' rights, safety and environmental rules, policy against climate change...

Which, while not perfect, DO EXIST and will continue to do so for decades (there's an upside to the EU sometimes being slower than the electoral cycle in member states).


----------



## stethoscope (Jun 21, 2016)

laptop said:


> The whole point of exit, for their funders, is to get rid of workers' rights



You mean like the TU bill that's being pushed through at the moment despite membership of the EU with the commission seemingly standing by and watching, or the EU/IMF imposing labour reforms in France to make the workforce 'more flexible' and stripping away protections.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 21, 2016)

laptop said:


> Eh?
> 
> The whole point of exit, for their funders, is to get rid of workers' rights, safety and environmental rules, policy against climate change...
> 
> Which, while not perfect, DO EXIST and will continue to do so for decades (there's an upside to the EU sometimes being slower than the electoral cycle in member states).



And other people want out for different reasons. Wanting something and getting it are two different things. Like I keep saying, the Tories don't have a big enough majority to force through changes such as a repeal of the working time directive. They don't have the support of enough of the country even.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 21, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> brexit -> goodbye scotland -> permanent tory majority in england and wales and the six counties



This the first answer I've gotten that makes sense. The possibility of splitting up with Scotland is probably one of the things most likely to make me vote remain. On balance I don't think it will happen though.


----------



## chilango (Jun 21, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> the mexican institutional revolutionary party enjoyed great success from its foundation until very recently
> 
> oh: and the six counties of course for many, many years



Mexico is pretty rigged tbh.


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Jun 21, 2016)

Fianna Fail were in power in Ireland for 61 of 79 years, and had a single party majority for the bulk of that time. As bourgeois democracies go, Ireland has a more democratic electoral system than most and little history of electoral fraud. Up until they destroyed the economy, it usually took something close to a grand coalition of everyone else to gain a brief respite from them.


----------



## killer b (Jun 21, 2016)

Why does Scotland exiting the union = a permanent Tory majority?


----------



## laptop (Jun 21, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> You mean like the TU bill that's being pushed through at the moment despite membership of the EU with the commission seemingly standing by and watching, or the EU/IMF imposing labour reforms in France to make the workforce 'more flexible' and stripping away protections.


I didn't say EU membership prevents the TU bill. But your whataboutery is no answer to the things it DOES do.


----------



## laptop (Jun 21, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> And other people want out for different reasons. Wanting something and getting it are two different things. Like I keep saying, the Tories don't have a big enough majority to force through changes such as a repeal of the working time directive. They don't have the support of enough of the country even.


But stethoscope just referred to them pushing through the TU Bill. Which they will, with minor concessions


----------



## stethoscope (Jun 21, 2016)

laptop said:


> I didn't say EU membership prevents the TU bill. But your whataboutery is no answer to the things it DOES do.



So, the EU are doing fuck all about the TU bill then. Why would that be? Is it for the same reason as what they're trying to do to French workers rights? (against a 'socialist' government?)


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 21, 2016)

laptop said:


> But stethoscope just referred to them pushing through the TU Bill. Which they will, with minor concessions



Aren't they struggling passing that bill though? And if it does pass, what does that say for the so-called protections that the EU supposedly offers us? Isn't this a perfect example of how change on the ground occurs through struggles on the ground rather than the decrees of far-away technocrats?


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 21, 2016)

laptop said:


> I didn't say EU membership prevents the TU bill. But your whataboutery is no answer to the things it DOES do.



So what _does _it do?


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 21, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> So what _does _it do?



... if not protect us, that is.


----------



## laptop (Jun 21, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> So, the EU are doing fuck all about the TU bill then. Why would that be? Is it for the same reason as what they're trying to do to French workers rights? (against a 'socialist' government?)


Yes, the details of the 35-hour week, and the complicated procedure for making established posts redundant, went beyond the EU Directive.

You did know what the French protests are about?


----------



## stethoscope (Jun 21, 2016)

laptop said:


> Yes, the details of the 35-hour week, and the complicated procedure for making established posts redundant, went beyond the EU Directive.
> 
> You did know what the French protests are about?



Yes, and you made a reference to the UK right wanting to exit to weaken workers rights. The EU are doing the same thing to liberalise markets even further by weakening workers rights. So, not much different to those interests invested in a remain.


----------



## stethoscope (Jun 21, 2016)

Meh.


----------



## discokermit (Jun 21, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> Meh.


gets you down, doesn't it. facebook is worse though cos you can see their smug faces.


----------



## stethoscope (Jun 21, 2016)

Btw, on the subject of the Working Time Directive, this makes interesting reading from the GMB.


----------



## chilango (Jun 21, 2016)

This probably takes over from 2015 as the most depressing election I've experienced.


----------



## Combustible (Jun 21, 2016)

J Ed said:


> So far in this referendum I have found that people generally do not see a lack of knowledge as an obstacle to being patronising.



Quite. I saw this being posted on facebook as an argument against "brexitards"







It is wrong in so many ways, but it even manages to get things wrong in ways that don't even help their case, i.e. since when was the PM or cabinet ministers selected by MPs.


----------



## smokedout (Jun 21, 2016)

laptop said:


> Yes, the details of the 35-hour week, and the complicated procedure for making established posts redundant, went beyond the EU Directive.



There are many laws in the UK that also go beyond EU requirements, whether the minimum wage or equality laws such as gay marriage.  All fought for and won without any help from the EU.  The notion that the UK working class is entirely ineffectual and dependent on benevolent liberals from the EU to save us from permanent Tory-dom and child slavery is as contemptible as it is willfully ignorant of history.


----------



## weltweit (Jun 21, 2016)

Anyone watching the BBC1 Big debate atm ?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 21, 2016)

weltweit said:


> Anyone watching the BBC1 Big debate atm ?


No


----------



## weltweit (Jun 21, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> No


If that bloody woman says "take back control" again I might just vomit on my monitor!


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 21, 2016)

weltweit said:


> If that bloody woman says "take back control" again I might just vomit on my monitor!


That's why I'm not watching, because they're all a bunch of cunts


----------



## bi0boy (Jun 21, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> No



I am so you're wrong.

Audience of 6000 so it's a bit unusual as far tv political debates in this country go.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 21, 2016)

weltweit said:


> Anyone watching the BBC1 Big debate atm ?


(((weltweit)))  dk what you did to deserve a like from treelover


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 21, 2016)

bi0boy said:


> I am so you're wrong.
> 
> Audience of 6000 so it's a bit unusual as far tv political debates in this country go.


Yeh usually they get at least in the hundreds of thousands


----------



## chilango (Jun 21, 2016)

Why do they need 3 microphones each?


----------



## chilango (Jun 21, 2016)

Don't think I'll manage more than 5minutes of this.


----------



## weltweit (Jun 21, 2016)

Ruth Davidson is an arguer
Boris take 10 minutes to make a single point
Andrea Leadsom "speaking as a mother "
Frances O'Grady is making good points but without much punch


----------



## lizzieloo (Jun 21, 2016)

I'm done, I can't watch them any more.


----------



## kebabking (Jun 21, 2016)

There's a fishing show on some minor TV channel - fly fishing in Canada.

Vastly better.


----------



## weltweit (Jun 21, 2016)

child free tax care 

Yup that was Andrea Leadsom


----------



## lizzieloo (Jun 21, 2016)

Child free everything, I win


----------



## chilango (Jun 21, 2016)

Oh fuck the fuck off all of you*

Right I'm turning this shite off.

*people on TV,not Urbs


----------



## weltweit (Jun 21, 2016)

chilango said:


> Oh fuck the fuck off all of you.
> 
> Right I'm turning this shite off.


I am sticking with it a bit more at least ... liking Sadik Khan atm ..


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 21, 2016)

weltweit said:


> I am sticking with it a bit more at least ... liking Sadik Khan atm ..


Sadiq


----------



## weltweit (Jun 21, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> Sadiq


sorry ..


----------



## sihhi (Jun 21, 2016)

killer b said:


> Why does Scotland exiting the union = a permanent Tory majority?



It doesn't. Scotland staying with an SNP majority could well mean in the future an SNP-Tory coalition for the promise of a new referendum. 
I trust no capitalist party. 
Any sort of permutation is possible.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 21, 2016)

weltweit said:


> sorry ..


Nothing to apologise for, not like he means anything to me, he's just a labour boris


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 21, 2016)

sihhi said:


> I trust no capitalist party.


i'll say one thing for capitalist parties, they don't do purges like stalinists do purges.


----------



## weltweit (Jun 21, 2016)

I like the BBC facts before the debates ...


----------



## CosmikRoger (Jun 21, 2016)

I'd vote leave, only in that it would bé quicker kicking out one bunch of cunts, than having to kick out two bunches.
Be even quicker the rope and lamp posts though


----------



## bi0boy (Jun 21, 2016)

CosmikRoger said:


> I'd vote leave, only in that it would bé quicker kicking out one bunch of cunts, than having to kick out two bunches.
> Be even quicker the rope and lamp posts though



Or the homemade firearm and kitchen knife?


----------



## Wilf (Jun 21, 2016)

smokedout said:


> are there any parliamentary democracies anywhere (that don't rig elections) where one party has enjoyed a permanent majority?


Swedish Social Democrats had a good run - 1930s through to the mid 70s (though a few deals and coalitions rather than majority as far as I can remember).


----------



## mk12 (Jun 21, 2016)

What the fuck is that hand thing all politicians do? It looks like they're holding an invisible fencing sword.


----------



## weltweit (Jun 21, 2016)

mk12 said:


> What the fuck is that hand thing all politicians do? It looks like they're holding an invisible fencing sword.


Do you mean when they are sort of making a fist? there was a thread on here about just that


----------



## CosmikRoger (Jun 21, 2016)

Not at all, none of this "loner nutter" style.
I see more huge gangs, with maybe parties and cups off tea after


----------



## mk12 (Jun 21, 2016)

Was just reading about Gisela Stuart on Wikipedia and came across this:



> Recently, desperate for attention, Stuart has joined the leave campaign in the Brexit debate. This has lead her to spout unfounded and xenophobic statements in debates over the European Union.


----------



## weltweit (Jun 21, 2016)

I hope leave have research saying that repetition of "take back control" actually helps their cause because it seems very patronising and irritates the heck out of me.


----------



## mk12 (Jun 21, 2016)

I think they're trouncing the 'remain' team, to be honest.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Jun 21, 2016)

weltweit said:


> I hope leave have research saying that repetition of "take back control" actually helps their cause because it seems very patronising and irritates the heck out of me.



What we need to do is take back control so we should take back control by taking back control in order to take back control. In summary, we should vote leave so we can take back control.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 21, 2016)

Jeff Robinson said:


> What we need to do is take back control so we should take back control by taking back control in order to take back control. In summary, we should vote leave so we can take back control.


But people lap it up, if the vox pops are any guide. It is a key strength of the leave campaign(s)...they've offered simplistic phrases that resonate and are easy to recall.


----------



## killer b (Jun 21, 2016)

That's just modern political rhetoric isn't it? CF. _Labour is a threat to the country's security, your family's security etc etc_. Simple, stirring & memorable.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Jun 21, 2016)

brogdale said:


> But people lap it up, if the vox pops are any guide. It is a key strength of the leave campaign(s)...they've offered simplistic phrases that resonate and are easy to recall.



Even so, that last round was total overkill.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 21, 2016)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Even so, that last round was total overkill.


Watched 2 mins, then...
Cro 1:1 Spa


----------



## weltweit (Jun 21, 2016)

mk12 said:


> I think they're trouncing the 'remain' team, to be honest.


I dunno, perhaps at the start, but when Ruth Davidson gets her turn she doesn't waste it!


----------



## not-bono-ever (Jun 21, 2016)

and Tony parsons can fuck off as well


----------



## weltweit (Jun 21, 2016)

I like Caroline Lucas, she usually seems to have good sense.


----------



## weltweit (Jun 21, 2016)

The BBC fact check pages are quite interesting after that debate:
Reality Check: The EU referendum - BBC News


----------



## brogdale (Jun 21, 2016)

Punters' verdict on that Wembley thing....


----------



## brogdale (Jun 21, 2016)

although...on the actual event...


----------



## discokermit (Jun 21, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Punters' verdict on that Wembley thing....



+5 undecided?
that was a useful contribution by the media there.


----------



## agricola (Jun 21, 2016)

brogdale said:


> But people lap it up, if the vox pops are any guide. It is a key strength of the leave campaign(s)...they've offered simplistic phrases that resonate and are easy to recall.



Certainly it is a better line than "_if we leave they will wreck our economy_".


----------



## brogdale (Jun 21, 2016)

agricola said:


> Certainly it is a better line than "_if we leave they will wreck our economy_".


As we've said before IWMCB works on so many levels, but perhaps the most effective one for many is that it gives people 'permission' to express rather unpleasant views in a politically correct/patriotic wrapping. Darkly insidious and divisive.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 21, 2016)

chilango said:


> Why do they need 3 microphones each?



Because despite them all having two faces they tend just to speak out their arse.


----------



## coley (Jun 21, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> And at the next GE we replace bedlice with more bedlice, albeit with differently-coloured skins.


But if our political focus is 'narrowed' mebbes more people will feel inclined to be involved?


----------



## xenon (Jun 21, 2016)

Twitter cunts.


----------



## xenon (Jun 21, 2016)

Let's all watch question time again.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 21, 2016)

xenon said:


> Let's all watch question time again.


no. Watch Tormund Giantsbane rip out the Boltons champion's throat with his teeth instead


----------



## xenon (Jun 21, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> no. Watch Tormund Giantsbane rip out the Boltons champion's throat with his teeth instead



 Careful now.   We need a Dimbleby


----------



## coley (Jun 21, 2016)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Do you honestly think that a Leave win will lead to a Labour victory in 2020? I can't see it myself.


I can see it leading to a hung parliament next year.


----------



## xenon (Jun 22, 2016)

coley said:


> I can see it leading to a hung parliament next year.



 Shoulda gone to spec savers


----------



## coley (Jun 22, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> we'll see



The cries for Scottish independence have been somewhat muted since the oil price crash, and a lot of Scots will have an aye on what's been done to the more hard up smaller states in recent years.


----------



## Ax^ (Jun 22, 2016)

coley said:


> I can see it leading to a hung parliament next year.



up against the wall ....   not dangling


----------



## coley (Jun 22, 2016)

weltweit said:


> I like the BBC facts before the debates ...



The BBC hasn't exactly been impartial in this particular issue!


----------



## coley (Jun 22, 2016)

Ax^ said:


> up against the wall ....   not dangling


Stick the EU commissioners against the wall first and I'll consider voting remain, it all about democracy


----------



## Ax^ (Jun 22, 2016)

in a negative or positive way to a brit exit?


John Whittingdales being fucking with the Beeb for years..


----------



## coley (Jun 22, 2016)

xenon said:


> Shoulda gone to spec savers



Always have


----------



## coley (Jun 22, 2016)

Ax^ said:


> in a negative or positive way to a brit exit?
> 
> 
> John Whittingdales being fucking with the Beeb for years..


Negative, on all levels, turned off the debate tonight after watching the remain lot getting a free ride compared to the instant heckling as soon as a leaver began to speak.


----------



## Ax^ (Jun 22, 2016)

cannie script the public..


shall have to watch it later after work


----------



## Ax^ (Jun 22, 2016)

just watching it ...


how the fuck is Gisela Stuart a Labour MP

"how can i say i cannot trust the UK voters in bring in a goverment that protects workers rights"

*points at the torys standing next to her*


----------



## Dogsauce (Jun 22, 2016)

Three weeks out of the country then for the last week my TV aerial hasn't worked properly so I can only get the Leeds local channel.  No televised debate bollocks, no news spin. I've not missed a fucking thing have I, other than raised blood pressure?


----------



## brogdale (Jun 22, 2016)

Dogsauce said:


> Three weeks out of the country then for the last week my TV aerial hasn't worked properly so I can only get the Leeds local channel.  No televised debate bollocks, no news spin. I've not missed a fucking thing have I, other than raised blood pressure?


Blessed, I'd say.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Jun 22, 2016)

Ax^ said:


> just watching it ...
> 
> 
> how the fuck is Gisela Stuart a Labour MP
> ...


 

She does have previous as a shouty warmonger IIRC


----------



## J Ed (Jun 22, 2016)

Make the terrible incorrect memes posted by people who smugly think they are 'fact-checking' others STOP


----------



## mk12 (Jun 22, 2016)

J Ed said:


> Make the terrible incorrect memes posted by people who smugly think they are 'fact-checking' others STOP



I read something by an academic on Twitter where he said that the EU was more democratic than the UK because MEPs are not elected using FPTP.

Frances O'Grady was incoherent during yesterday's debate. She made a few points about the bankers causing the financial crisis, but then said that'll happen again if we leave. But...it happened when were part of the EU? I don't get her reasoning at all.

The Scottish woman kept saying the leave side aren't telling people what will happen if we leave, such as how many people will lose their jobs. So can remainers tell us how many people will lose their jobs over the next five years if we stay in? No?


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 22, 2016)

mk12 said:


> I read something by an academic on Twitter where he said that the EU was more democratic than the UK because MEPs are not elected using FPTP.
> 
> Frances O'Grady was incoherent during yesterday's debate. She made a few points about the bankers causing the financial crisis, but then said that'll happen again if we leave. But...it happened when were part of the EU? I don't get her reasoning at all.
> 
> The Scottish woman kept saying the leave side aren't telling people what will happen if we leave, such as how many people will lose their jobs. So can remainers tell us how many people will lose their jobs over the next five years if we stay in? No?


This is how the more democratic EU runs Greece:



> Greece is now a semi-protectorate: a bigger Kosovo. There is a new austerity package, with further cuts and taxes—to an economy that has already lost a quarter of its GDP. The Greek government has lost any real legislative power, since any bill has to be approved by the Quartet before being submitted to the Parliament. On the side of the executive power, the tax-collecting body, the General Secretariat of Public Revenue, is now fully ‘independent’ of the elected government and is in reality controlled by appointees of Brussels. Decrees issued by the Secretariat have an equal value to decisions of the Cabinet—this is written in the Memorandum. Then there’s the Council for Fiscal Discipline, with five members, functioning along the same lines. They are unaccountable to any governmental authority, closely monitored by the Quartet and can impose cuts on any expenditure if they suspect there might be a deviation from fiscal targets, which demand a 3.5 per cent surplus from 2018. Deprived of its levers, the Greek state is also being stripped of its remaining assets. The airports have already been sold to a German company, of which the major stakeholder is the federal state of Hesse. The banks have essentially been sold to vulture funds. Home repossessions will start this February. Syriza is very proud to have obtained measures which they say will protect 25 per cent of mortgages; meaning that 75 per cent will be opened up to recuperation by the banks.


----------



## J Ed (Jun 22, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> This is how the more democratic EU runs Greece:



The total lack of any interest in addressing the issue of Greece on the Remain side truly is despicable.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 22, 2016)

This is how the more democratic and pro-immigrant EU manages migration:

EU States’ dangerous approach to migration places asylum in jeopardy worldwide - MSF to no longer take funds from EU Member States and institutions



> Médecins Sans Frontières (MSF) announced today that it will no longer take funds from the European Union and Member States, in opposition to their damaging deterrence policies and intensifying attempts to push people and their suffering away from European shores.
> 
> This decision will take effect immediately and will apply to MSF’s projects worldwide.





> Last week the European Commission unveiled a new proposal to replicate the EU-Turkey logic across more than 16 countries in Africa and the Middle East. These deals would impose trade and development aid cuts on countries that do not stem migration to Europe or facilitate forcible returns, rewarding those that do. Among these potential partners are Somalia, Eritrea, Sudan and Afghanistan – four of the top ten* refugee generating countries.
> 
> “Is Europe’s only offer to refugees that they stay in countries they are desperate to flee? Once again, Europe’s main focus is not on how well people will be protected, but on how efficiently they are kept away,” said Oberreit.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 22, 2016)

J Ed said:


> The total lack of any interest in addressing the issue of Greece on the Remain side truly is despicable.


Yes. I think it demonstrates a pretty clear nationalist basis for their _internationalism_. In the same way the above one shows the EU is just UKIP on a larger scale.


----------



## mk12 (Jun 22, 2016)

J Ed said:


> The total lack of any interest in addressing the issue of Greece on the Remain side truly is despicable.



The latte liberal Twitterati don't give a shit about that. They are voting remain because it's the nice, caring, decent, inclusive thing to do. It doesn't really go much deeper than that.


----------



## J Ed (Jun 22, 2016)

mk12 said:


> The latte liberal Twitterati don't give a shit about that. They are voting remain because it's the nice, caring, decent, inclusive thing to do. It doesn't really go much deeper than that.



Why would you vote against sharing?!?


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 22, 2016)

Bit more on the EU and migration:



> Nor should we confuse open borders with a lack of national sovereignty. Consider the case of Spain and the EU. Until 1991, Spain had an open border with North Africa. Migrant workers would come to Spain for seasonal work and then return home. In 1986, the newly democratic Spain joined the EU. As part of its obligations as a EU member, it had to close its North African borders. The closing of the borders did not stop migrant workers trying to enter Spain. Instead, they took to small boats to cross the Mediterranean and smuggle themselves in. This was the start of the ‘migration crisis’.
> 
> Spain had exercised national sovereignty by keeping its borders open. Closed borders were imposed by Brussels.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jun 22, 2016)

Remain if only to say fuck you Farage, white van man and Britain First!


.


----------



## weltweit (Jun 22, 2016)

Of course, in this, all votes are absolutely equal.

No more wasted votes if your constituency is going the other way.

Every vote will count!

hmm, shall I call my recalcitrant relative daily mail reader and try to persuade them to vote remain?


----------



## Dulwich Raider (Jun 22, 2016)

Finally, Deserter comes off the fence on Brexit:

EU Referendump: 21 Reasons to Vote Leave

TDR


----------



## J Ed (Jun 22, 2016)

Dulwich Raider said:


> Finally, Deserter comes off the fence on Brexit:
> 
> EU Referendump: 21 Reasons to Vote Leave
> 
> TDR



The amount of really terrible content inspired by the referendum is something to behold.


----------



## Lorca (Jun 22, 2016)

civil war in the 'burbs! I just walked up my local town centre (in the shires, predominantly retired, Daily Mail reading demographic) when i noticed a bit of a commotion. A Brexit stall deliberately, and somewhat provocatively I have to say, set up right next to the regular Bremain stall outside the Asda, precipitating a shoving/shouting match which was highly entertaining, if a little unedifying. One elderly Brexitarian was wielding her umbrella in a most agressive manner and leaflets adorned with Union Jacks were blowing disconsolately down the street, unread. It was better than the footy anyway.


----------



## Dogsauce (Jun 22, 2016)

J Ed said:


> The amount of really terrible content inspired by the referendum is something to behold.



Isn't it just. It makes me want to Exit the UK, fear, lies and outright drivel in every direction.

I don't think it'll stop afterwards either.


----------



## SaskiaJayne (Jun 22, 2016)

Just on R4 news now. Bono says vote remain...


----------



## laptop (Jun 22, 2016)

J Ed said:


> Why would you vote against sharing?!?


You've not understood Lenin, have you? Still less Stalin (or whoever his ghost-writers were).


----------



## two sheds (Jun 22, 2016)

Lorca said:


> leaflets adorned with Union Jacks were blowing disconsolately down the street, unread. It was better than the footy anyway.



litter bugs


----------



## weltweit (Jun 22, 2016)

SaskiaJayne said:


> Just on R4 news now. Bono says vote remain...


hmm, as a remain voter that causes me some concern


----------



## mk12 (Jun 22, 2016)

J Ed said:


> Why would you vote against sharing?!?


Because I've been brainwashed by the Daily Fail and the Scum and Katie Hopkins and Nigel Falange and...


----------



## mk12 (Jun 22, 2016)

SaskiaJayne said:


> Just on R4 news now. Bono says vote remain...


I am going to get up even earlier to vote leave now.


----------



## frogwoman (Jun 22, 2016)

Changed my mind to abstain tbh. (Probably)


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Jun 22, 2016)

SaskiaJayne said:


> Just on R4 news now. Bono says vote remain...


Ha, there's no way they'll reverse that damage by tomorrow, people with infected iPhones will be out in droves.


----------



## mk12 (Jun 22, 2016)

frogwoman said:


> Changed my mind to abstain tbh. (Probably)


I thought you were always abstain?


----------



## frogwoman (Jun 22, 2016)

mk12 said:


> I thought you were always abstain?



No i was going to leave.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 22, 2016)

has anyone contacted the Edge? if he's leave it could cause tension between an otherwise great band


----------



## mk12 (Jun 22, 2016)

So Bob Geldof, Bono and (I assume) Chris Martin are all remain? And people here are STILL not going to vote leave?!?!


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Jun 22, 2016)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Remain if only to say fuck you Farage, white van man and Britain First!
> 
> 
> .


Yeah fucking proles in their work vans


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 22, 2016)

SaskiaJayne said:


> Just on R4 news now. Bono says vote remain...


That's that then, we're out


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 22, 2016)

This video is being shared all over the place.


----------



## weltweit (Jun 22, 2016)

Tracey Emin: It would be 'insanity' to leave EU
Tracey Emin: It would be 'insanity' to leave EU - BBC News

Gillian Duffy: 'I don't want to be a European'
Gillian Duffy: 'I don't want to be a European' - BBC News


----------



## YouSir (Jun 22, 2016)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Remain if only to say fuck you Farage, white van man and Britain First!
> 
> .



Well, that's stupid.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 22, 2016)

the juxtaposition of WVM sneer and 'sent from my iphone' is delicious tho


----------



## jakethesnake (Jun 22, 2016)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Remain if only to say fuck you Farage, white van man and Britain First!



The right wing have won this referendum whatever the final result: they have been allowed to occupy both sides of the 'debate'. A choice between the pro-austerity anti-working class status quo or voting for racists. A vote for leave is actually a vote for the working class, don't allow Farage et al to hijack that.


----------



## gosub (Jun 22, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> This video is being shared all over the place.




I've covered the earlier stuff before, its EEA membership and use of MRA's (mutual recognition agreements) to cut time - what you had before met our spec, without tinkering you'll still meet the spec)   Australia just completed one with the EU in 2 years


17.00 mins in.+.  though.  The EU didn't spec the USB or even the serial bus, car mechanics don't (these days) need an imperial socket and metric socket set for when dealing with cars originating from different continents - why? COZ SPECS ARE AGREED AT A GLOBAL LEVEL, even for cucumbers, I can't think why Jean Monnet Chair holder, Professor Dougan would say different.  But he can, because of the low level debate we have been subjected to for the last few months -still the great unwashed have learned there is a difference between the EU and the Single Market (and taught me free movement of people undermines the material aspirations of existing workforces).


----------



## Streathamite (Jun 22, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> i'll say one thing for capitalist parties, they don't do purges like stalinists do purges.


typical bloody toff amateurs


----------



## maomao (Jun 22, 2016)

I'm wavering due to the sight of my local Tory MP and his vermin friends campaigning for Leave outside my local train station today. I did some shouting and swearing (it's amazing what you can get away with when you're pushing a pushchair) but am I really lining up with these shitcunts tomorrow?


----------



## Teaboy (Jun 22, 2016)

maomao said:


> I'm wavering due to the sight of my local Tory MP and his vermin friends campaigning for Leave outside my local train station today. I did some shouting and swearing (it's amazing what you can get away with when you're pushing a pushchair) but am I really lining up with these shitcunts tomorrow?



Its a big problem regardless of which way you vote.  Imagine voting remain, remain wins and then having to watch the smug shit-eating grins on Cameron & Osborn's face in full knowledge that you helped put it there.


----------



## J Ed (Jun 22, 2016)

Anyone else genuinely forget about the existence of Lib Dems for the duration of Ref campaign?


----------



## maomao (Jun 22, 2016)

J Ed said:


> Anyone else genuinely forgot about the existence of Lib Dems for the duration of Ref campaign?


I tend to forget about their existence unless there's one on the telly at that exact moment.


----------



## Teaboy (Jun 22, 2016)

J Ed said:


> Anyone else genuinely forgot about the existence of Lib Dems for the duration of Ref campaign?



Sadly I've been unable to.  Lib dems are the second biggest party here and held the seat up until the last election.  We have been deluged with pro-remain lib dem leaflets.  I think they've just given up on the rest of the country.


----------



## chilango (Jun 22, 2016)

J Ed said:


> Anyone else genuinely forgot about the existence of Lib Dems for the duration of Ref campaign?



Rallying their 2-3% of the vote behind Remain is going to be crucial....er....


----------



## hot air baboon (Jun 22, 2016)

J Ed said:


> Anyone else genuinely forget about the existence of Lib Dems for the duration of Ref campaign?



sadly not as I have been unable to avoid appearances by Lord Pantsdown & Clegg during the proceedings to date....

....getting real pre-match nerves now...its been such alot of fun we ought to consider making it  a fixture ...no more than every 4 years though...maybe hold it in a different country each time like Eurovision...


----------



## Yossarian (Jun 22, 2016)

J Ed said:


> Anyone else genuinely forget about the existence of Lib Dems for the duration of Ref campaign?



Seems like a major oversight from the Exit campaign, they could probably have swung things a few points in their favor just by sticking up posters of Nick Clegg's face.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 22, 2016)

J Ed said:


> Anyone else genuinely forget about the existence of Lib Dems for the duration of Ref campaign?


----------



## Wilhelmina.Trav (Jun 22, 2016)

Stay i. The UK. I hate Farage n feel he's racist. I think a lot of people don't understand the implications of leaving n are voting die to a lot pf the racial propaganda termed "immigration"

STAY!  Better the devil ye know n these Torry assholes already want rid of the NHS. Leaving the EU would give them more power n I doubt a lot of people want that. 

Evey


----------



## redsquirrel (Jun 22, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> This video is being shared all over the place.



And? What are your thoughts about the opinions of this "independent academic expert" who "advises the cabinet office"?


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 22, 2016)

Wilhelmina.Trav said:


> Stay i. The UK. I hate Farage n feel he's racist. I think a lot of people don't understand the implications of leaving n are voting die to a lot pf the racial propaganda termed "immigration"
> 
> STAY!  Better the devil ye know n these Torry assholes already want rid of the NHS. Leaving the EU would give them more power n I doubt a lot of people want that.
> 
> Evey



Well I'm convinced.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 22, 2016)

Dogsauce said:


> Isn't it just. It makes me want to Exit the UK, fear, lies and outright drivel in every direction.
> 
> I don't think it'll stop afterwards either.


It will never end


----------



## chilango (Jun 22, 2016)

Every time someone from Remain speaks on TV I want to vote "out" but then someone from Brexit gets their turn and that makes me want to vote "in".


----------



## chilango (Jun 22, 2016)

Do think I could manage to draw this on my ballot as a third option?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 22, 2016)

chilango said:


> Do think I could manage to draw this on my ballot as a third option?


By the time you've got halfway through they'll send someone in to check you haven't had a coronary


----------



## chilango (Jun 22, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> By the time you've got halfway through they'll send someone in to check you haven't had a coronary



Wonder what would happen to your vote if you died half way through the "x"?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 22, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> And? What are your thoughts about the opinions of this "independent academic expert" who "advises the cabinet office"?


I will tell you once I have watched it. Excuse me for being busy at work. Also fuck you... Don't ever demand shit from me or condescend in this way.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 22, 2016)

chilango said:


> Wonder what would happen to your vote if you died half way through the "x"?


A clear preference had been shown and the vote would count. Unless the x covered half the paper


----------



## chilango (Jun 22, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> A clear preference had been shown and the vote would count. Unless the x covered half the paper



Yeah. What if you'd marked the first strike of your "x" but then slumped dead pencil in hand dragged across into the other box. Harsh.

I get people have died in the polling booth before. Does someone pop the paper in the box for them?

(Y'see what this shitty referendum and its shitty hucksters has reduced me to. Fuckers.)


----------



## redsquirrel (Jun 22, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> I will tell you once I have watched it. Excuse me for being busy at work. Also fuck you... Don't ever demand shit from me or condescend in this way.


Fuck you too.

You stuck up a half hour youtube video (which you haven't even watched yet) without any comment, don't pretend that it's out of order for someone to pull you up on it. That type of thing has always been, rightly, criticised, as bullshit.


----------



## Wilhelmina.Trav (Jun 22, 2016)

Whatever happens there's gna be outrage n people shouting fix as people love to moan. If we stay people moan theres an immigration problem n if we leave people will moan about the trafing. Damned if you do n damned if you don't. I'm eccited to see what happens tho. 

Evey


----------



## bi0boy (Jun 22, 2016)

I'm voting remain. I admire Lexiters for being able to wake up on Friday morning to a gloating Leave campaign and feel optimistic about the future. I just see short term pain for immigrants, the NHS etc with no long term gain for anyone.


----------



## inva (Jun 22, 2016)

bi0boy said:


> I'm voting remain. I admire Lexiters for being able to wake up on Friday morning to a gloating Leave campaign and feel optimistic about the future. I just see short term pain for immigrants, the NHS etc with no long term gain for anyone.


what do you foresee in the event of a remain vote?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 22, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> Even if the result of a leave vote is the Tories all pulling together (I don't see it, however), how will they do any better than they are doing this Parliament? Look at how many u-turns they have had to make recently. Things are beginning to shift against them. The electoral arithmetic of the commons at the moment makes brexit much less risky than it might have been under other circumstances.



Electoral dynamics show us that the most usual outcome of a change of leader of a governing party part-way through a term (Cameron's resignation will happen if "leave" wins) is that the electorate give the new leader the benefit of the doubt, even if the wider party has been shafting the electorate left, right and centre. AFAICR, the only time this hasn't happened in the 20th and 21st centuries, is when Brown took over from Blair, and that was at least partially due to several years of monstering of Brown by the media.


----------



## stethoscope (Jun 22, 2016)

inva said:


> what do you foresee in the event of a remain vote?



Vote remain to continue that pain for immigrants, the NHS, etc. but with no long term gain for most of us.


----------



## hot air baboon (Jun 22, 2016)

...referenda make for uncomfortable political bed-fellows..its in the nature of the beast..Tony Benn had to stand as a totem anti-Common Market figure in 1975 alongside Enoch Powell - in the face of an overwhelming mainstream concensus...

mind you both men of a substance & intellectual heft that makes a bit of a sick joke of our modern day Ersatz Enoch & Russel Russy-Wussy Brand ( ...never mind the Lib Dems what the hell happened to him... )


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jun 22, 2016)

Teaboy said:


> Its a big problem regardless of which way you vote.  Imagine voting remain, remain wins and then having to watch the smug shit-eating grins on Cameron & Osborn's face in full knowledge that you helped put it there.



They always have smug shit-eating grins on their faces. The sight of a look of triumph on Boris Johnson's face, those beady little eyes all lit up with the knowledge that by picking the winning team in a contest he doesn't give a fuck about he's put himself on course to become prime minister, is not something my heart can likely stand.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Jun 22, 2016)

Having originally been faintly tending towards 'leave' (on the basis that there's a lot wrong with the EU) I'm now undecided between a fairly unenthusiastic 'remain' and writing something rude on the paper (my arts skills are limited)

If there was a 'leave' option based on an alternative to neoliberalism, offering real internationalism and less fortress europe, less of the EU gravy train, more pro-people and less pro-business, I'd have no doubts about voting leave.

But that's not on offer now and I can't see it being on offer any time soon.  What's on offer is a little englander vision that's not even being veiled with its racism any more.

And I can't see how I can vote for that, no matter how shit the current tory government is.

I don't want 'cameron to win' but the idea of the racist right feeling it's won is even less appealing.

The idea that the likes of farage, gove, johnson, the very rich people who own the sun and the mail are somehow 'pro working class' strikes me as bollocks on a massive scale. 

trying to appeal to some of the working class by scapegoating - of minorities (who in many cases are part of the working class as well), working class people who are too sick to work or who can't get jobs, of the dwindling number of working class people who still have (comparitively) secure jobs and decent pensions and / or secure social tenancies, and spreading the bullshit (sadly swallowed by too many people out there) that it's somehow 'fair' to deal with inequalities by equalising down, is not 'pro working class' in my book.

I can't see how 'brexit' is going to lead to a sudden upsurge in socialism in the UK any time soon.  I'm not personally going to experience racism on the streets, but I've noticed the closet racists (mainly at work - don't think i've got many in my social circle) getting more 'out and proud' in recent weeks.  And I wonder who they are going to scapegoat next if they suddenly realise that brexit doesn't mean mass deportations.

If we do get a snap election, I can't see the current bandwagon suddenly going in to reverse - a lot of bullshit and union jack waving from the right, and jeremy corbyn making polite noises that the media largely ignores (assuming the blairites don't panic and throw corbyn overboard) is likely to deliver something even worse than we've got now. 

Bleurgh.


----------



## stethoscope (Jun 22, 2016)

Puddy_Tat said:


> Having originally been faintly tending towards 'leave' (on the basis that there's a lot wrong with the EU) I'm now undecided between a fairly unenthusiastic 'remain' and writing something rude on the paper (my arts skills are limited)
> 
> If there was a 'leave' option based on an alternative to neoliberalism, offering real internationalism and less fortress europe, less of the EU gravy train, more pro-people and less pro-business, I'd have no doubts about voting leave.



So how does that translate to a remain? Abstain/spoil at best.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Jun 22, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> So how does that translate to a remain?


 
only as a vote against the 'even more crap' option


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jun 22, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> Electoral dynamics show us that the most usual outcome of a change of leader of a governing party part-way through a term (Cameron's resignation will happen if "leave" wins) is that the electorate give the new leader the benefit of the doubt, even if the wider party has been shafting the electorate left, right and centre. AFAICR, the only time this hasn't happened in the 20th and 21st centuries, is when Brown took over from Blair, and that was at least partially due to several years of monstering of Brown by the media.


Callaghan too.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Jun 22, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Callaghan too.


 
and Douglas-Home


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jun 22, 2016)

Puddy_Tat said:


> and Douglas-Home


And Major only scraped in.

What there is, though, is plenty of precedent for changing leader and not calling an early election. Quite the reverse with Callaghan, Major and Brown - they clung on in there to the full term even before there were fixed terms.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Jun 22, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> And Major only scraped in.


 
as much (i think) to his surprise as everyone else's...


----------



## Dogsauce (Jun 22, 2016)

Doesn't the parliament Act basically mean they don't have the ability to call a snap election? Or can it be repealed?

Conjecture: Any post-Brexit election is likely to have a strong UKIP showing, since they will be keen to dictate the terms of the UK exit, and any sign of feet being dragged on 'shutting the door' to immigration (which businesses will oppose) will be highlighted in a campaign strategy. If there isn't an election until 2020 then there will be plenty for UKIP to get cross about as the EU extraction process may not have got that far by then, and they could claim 'the public' aren't getting what they asked for.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 22, 2016)

Corbyn missed a trick in pretending to be a remainist. He should have stuck to his old beliefs and won back a few of the Labour voters that have abandoned them for UKIP.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 22, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> Corbyn missed a trick in pretending to be a remainist. He should have stuck to his old beliefs and won back a few of the Labour voters that have abandoned them for UKIP.


it was decided at the party conference and he's said he wants to be a consensus leader. After all his unity and compromise building stuff it would look well shit if he just trampled over the will of the wider party, the one that elected him

would make him look a massive bullshitter


----------



## two sheds (Jun 23, 2016)

Still a shame though - we could have had the headlines 'Stalinist corbyn shows true colours'


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 23, 2016)

Corbout!


----------



## Ax^ (Jun 23, 2016)

Hmm so the day is upon us..

tbf wales, north Ireland and Scottish voters should really vote to remain in EU

so you want English independence

how about a No to that


----------



## redsquirrel (Jun 23, 2016)

Absolute twaddle, danny la rogue and steeplejack have already demolished the Scotland point. Wales, while on average more remain than England, is still very much split. Even if it wasn't there's no basis for saying that independence is anything but a select minority position in Wales.

The three Wales EU Ref polls this year (all YouGov)
Date Remain Leave
30 May – 2 June 2016 *41%* *41%*
7–11 April 2016 38% *39%*
9–11 February 2016 37% *45%*


----------



## Ax^ (Jun 23, 2016)

I just think that line at the end of Boris sign off to the debate thing was the wankiest thing I've heard in ages

"lets make this Our independence day"

oh do fuck off


----------



## Wilhelmina.Trav (Jun 23, 2016)

I fear for the UK if we leave. It's enough we have the Torries in power..... It's going to be a sad day if we leave......

Evey


----------



## Ax^ (Jun 23, 2016)

just listen to the 10 seconds of that


Oh  Fuck off,  you Big Lamp



*shakes fist at sky*


----------



## realitybites (Jun 23, 2016)

Whatever you vote, whether a vote to leave or to remain,
do you think this choice is generally indicative of your overall state of happiness & contentedness ?


----------



## two sheds (Jun 23, 2016)

yes


----------



## not-bono-ever (Jun 23, 2016)

...


----------



## weltweit (Jun 23, 2016)

realitybites said:


> Whatever you vote, whether a vote to leave or to remain,
> do you think this choice is generally indicative of your overall state of happiness & contentedness ?


No happiness I don't think is an issue. I voted remain, among other reasons, because more and more people in my personal life and my work life are continental Europeans and I personally feel more and more European as the years go by, and I think this is a good thing for me and for the country.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 23, 2016)

I can't wait for this day to be over.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Jun 23, 2016)

weltweit said:


> No happiness I don't think is an issue. I voted remain, among other reasons, because more and more people in my personal life and my work life are continental Europeans and I personally feel more and more European as the years go by, and I think this is a good thing for me and for the country.



If there is a vote to leave the EU none of us will stop being European!

With my head in my hands - Louis MacNeice


----------



## bi0boy (Jun 23, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> I can't wait for this day to be over.



Well you'll have to.


----------



## YouSir (Jun 23, 2016)

weltweit said:


> No happiness I don't think is an issue. I voted remain, among other reasons, because more and more people in my personal life and my work life are continental Europeans and I personally feel more and more European as the years go by, and I think this is a good thing for me and for the country.



Are you under impression that they'll be towing the country away if we vote Leave? Parking it by North America or something? We'll still be European.

Although with that said if they could park us somewhere in the Caribbean that'd be good.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 23, 2016)

bi0boy said:


> Well you'll have to.



Bloody EU and it's linearity-of-time regulations!


----------



## weltweit (Jun 23, 2016)

Louis MacNeice said:


> If there is a vote to leave the EU none of us will stop being European!
> 
> With my head in my hands - Louis MacNeice


You are quite right "EU" and "European" are not the same thing.

And anyhow it isn't my main reason for voting remain, I have many reasons, but I don't feel this issue about EU inward migration that many in the right wing leave campaign have been attempting to scare us with.



YouSir said:


> Are you under impression that they'll be towing the country away if we vote Leave? Parking it by North America or something? We'll still be European.
> 
> Although with that said if they could park us somewhere in the Caribbean that'd be good.


Gillian Duffy (that woman who had a part in Gordon Brown's downfall) said on the BBC website "I don't want to be European!" I think, sadly, despite your and Louis MacNeice's correct protestations, a lot of leave voters have been / will be voting with that thought in mind.


----------



## realitybites (Jun 23, 2016)

weltweit said:


> No happiness I don't think is an issue. I voted remain, among other reasons, because more and more people in my personal life and my work life are continental Europeans and I personally feel more and more European as the years go by, and I think this is a good thing for me and for the country.



I'm not sure.. Don't you ever just find there are times when you just get out of the wrong side of bed?
And do you never just think what could happen when a huge slice of the UK population are getting out of the wrong side of bed night after night
and whatever they vote on has nothing to do with what the referendum is really touting but is more to do with something tacit and personal.
'


----------



## weltweit (Jun 23, 2016)

realitybites said:


> I'm not sure.. Don't you ever just find there are times when you just get out of the wrong side of bed?
> And do you never just think what could happen when a huge slice of the UK population are getting out of the wrong side of bed night after night
> and whatever they vote on has nothing to do with what the referendum is really touting but is more to do with something tacit and personal.
> '


I was discussing the debate recently with a Leave voter who was of the opinion that our parents generation would have voted leave. Initially, because they went through WWII to keep Britain free I thought that might be true, but the more I think about it I concluded that I could have persuaded many of them to welcome more European cooperation, more working together, less isolationism, and ultimately less war.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Jun 23, 2016)

weltweit said:


> I was discussing the debate recently with a Leave voter who was of the opinion that our parents generation would have voted leave. Initially, because they went through WWII to keep Britain free I thought that might be true, but the more I think about it I concluded that I could have persuaded many of them to *welcome more European cooperation, more working together, less isolationism, and ultimately less war.*



Whoa there! You're at it again the EU and Europe are not the same thing. We can be out of the EU (and against the EU's fortress Europe) without being go it alone isolationist war mongers.

Louis MacNeice


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 23, 2016)

weltweit said:


> I was discussing the debate recently with a Leave voter who was of the opinion that our parents generation would have voted leave. Initially, because they went through WWII to keep Britain free I thought that might be true, but the more I think about it I concluded that I could have persuaded many of them to welcome more European cooperation, more working together, less isolationism, and ultimately less war.


Yes, with your noted powers of persuasion. Leaving aside the absurd conflations and question begging of the rest of the post.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 23, 2016)

Just in case any of you need any further help making up your mind....this is flying from the garden of Tom Brake's garden in '_sought after' _South Wallington...


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Jun 23, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Just in case any of you need any further help making up your mind....*this is flying from the garden of Tom Brake's garden* in '_sought after' _South Wallington...



His garden has a garden? No wonder the area is sought after with such riches on offer.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## andysays (Jun 23, 2016)

YouSir said:


> Are you under impression that they'll be towing the country away if we vote Leave? Parking it by North America or something? We'll still be European.
> 
> Although with that said if they could park us somewhere in the Caribbean that'd be good.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Jun 23, 2016)

Louis MacNeice said:


> With my head in my hands - Louis MacNeice



 How many times do you think you've said something other than "cheers"?


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Jun 23, 2016)

It was long time coming but ended up in floods of tears last night as my polish friend has now told me what she thinks of my vote to leave- well you can imagine. On the up side a remain voter that's the convener for the council here- he meets with regional types in Europe and stuff- finally stopped just throwing things on faceshite and engaged and we ended up having a good talk, I was nervous because I feel like I haven't a clue but we ended up agreeing on loads of stuff- so it can happen, late in the day though!  Ultimately though it looks like negative consequences all round. I feel like abstaining but I know I can't, I'm sure there's a good argument for it but I feel like I'd be cheating and leaving someone else to deal with it later, even though it's probs gonnae go remain anyway- although all my aunties have just voted out, interesting times! Away to vote now, shitting my breeks. It's like the black and white version of the Scottish Indy vote directed by David lynch.


----------



## Fingers (Jun 23, 2016)

Ten point lead to Remain?

Remain has been given a huge lead in the final EU Referendum poll


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 23, 2016)

My tory voting pal, who is the son of immigrants, refuses to recognise Palestine, says Corbyn should be shot and supports the IRA (no, really) requested me to vote "leave" today. If ever I was undecided (I wasn't) that would have made my mind up, for sure


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 23, 2016)

Most of the Portugese I have spoke to here would vote leave if they had the choice .some are against but only on the grounds that they and other Portuguese have worked or will work in other European countries and think that leave might make that more difficult.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 23, 2016)

Fingers said:


> Ten point lead to Remain?
> 
> Remain has been given a huge lead in the final EU Referendum poll


Odds have lengthened on leave from 3-1 yesterday to 17/2 lunchtime


----------



## danny la rouge (Jun 23, 2016)

I took my blind 93-year-old Mum to the polling place.  She said loudly "I'm going to storm Downing Street and kill Cameron, shout if you're with me!" A huge cheer went up from waiting voters.


----------



## Fingers (Jun 23, 2016)

Farage bottled out of the debate last night

Here's why Nigel Farage pulled out of last night's Channel 4 debate


----------



## sheothebudworths (Jun 23, 2016)

danny la rouge said:


> I took my blind 93-year-old Mum to the polling place.  She said loudly "I'm going to storm Downing Street and kill Cameron, shout if you're with me!" A huge cheer went up from waiting voters.



 

*many, many likes for ma la rouge*


----------



## Wilf (Jun 23, 2016)

danny la rouge said:


> I took my blind 93-year-old Mum to the polling place.  She said loudly "I'm going to storm Downing Street and kill Cameron, shout if you're with me!" A huge cheer went up from waiting voters.


Sadly, yet more evidence of the extremism and aggression stirred up by this campaign.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 23, 2016)

danny la rouge said:


> I took my blind 93-year-old Mum to the polling place.  She said loudly "I'm going to storm Downing Street and kill Cameron, shout if you're with me!" A huge cheer went up from waiting voters.



Saw this and thought of you.


93 Yr Mum Tweet Leads To Countless EU Referendum Twitter Jokes


----------



## danny la rouge (Jun 23, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> Saw this and thought of you.
> 
> 
> 93 Yr Mum Tweet Leads To Countless EU Referendum Twitter Jokes



Indeed. I was sad to think some of my "likers" weren't getting the reference.


----------



## sheothebudworths (Jun 23, 2016)

Ah   

*shakes fist at danny* 

*unlikes ma la rouge*


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 23, 2016)

danny la rouge said:


> Indeed. I was sad to think some of my "likers" weren't getting the reference.



I wasn't looking at twitter today!


----------



## Ted Striker (Jun 23, 2016)

This country needs more 93year old blind women


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 23, 2016)

sheothebudworths said:


> Ah
> 
> *shakes fist at danny*
> 
> *unlikes ma la rouge*



I too have unliked danny la rouge's imaginary nanna.


----------



## Idris2002 (Jun 23, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> My tory voting pal, who is the son of immigrants, refuses to recognise Palestine, says Corbyn should be shot and supports the IRA (no, really) requested me to vote "leave" today. If ever I was undecided (I wasn't) that would have made my mind up, for sure


I didn't realize you knew Casually Red in real life.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jun 23, 2016)

oooff!


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## NoXion (Jun 23, 2016)

Idris2002 said:


> I didn't realize you knew Casually Red in real life.



CR is anti-Palestinian? I'm surprised if so.


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## coley (Jun 23, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> Vote remain to continue that pain for immigrants, the NHS, etc. but with no long term gain for most of us.


Quite, but leave, and they have to worry about what the newly empowered upstart voters are going to do next


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## coley (Jun 23, 2016)

Wilhelmina.Trav said:


> I fear for the UK if we leave. It's enough we have the Torries in power..... It's going to be a sad day if we leave......
> 
> Evey


I would prefer the Uk Tories ( which we can quickly dump) to the unelected EU Tories which we will have in perpetuity.


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## Wilhelmina.Trav (Jun 24, 2016)

Anyone happy to see the see Tories divide? I am after all they've done. 

Evey


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## weltweit (Jun 25, 2016)




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