# Welsh National Identity



## lewislewis (Jan 2, 2006)

In your experience, how strong is the Welsh national identity amongst your friends/workmates? Do you feel a 'Welsh-only' identity is more popular in Wales than a 'British-only' identity or a 'Welsh and British at the same time' identity?

I'm from a typical industrial south Wales town, and in my experience younger people feel more Welsh than older people. I don't know what areas of Wales have a stronger or weaker Welsh identity, but i'd imagine industrial South Wales and rural Gwynedd would be the most Welsh areas. 

Is Britishness in decline, or is Welsh identity a passing fad?


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## Gavin Bl (Jan 2, 2006)

> i'd imagine industrial South Wales and rural Gwynedd would be the most Welsh areas.



Dunno, I suspect you would find welshness articulated rather differently in these areas - its always been a bit of a mish-mash of ideas to me, in the valleys at least - soft welsh nationalism, labourism/class politics, folk memory of pits and foundries, resentment at industrial decline, and coming out of that some anti-English feeling.  I suspect it would take a somewhat different form in the rural north, but you'd have to ask a Gog  

That said, there is undoubtedly a growth in focussing on Welshness - which at a level of increased learning of welsh, relearning of culture, etc will be positive - but clearly can also go down a negative road of deepening anti-Enlgish attitudes. 

anti-English feeling was usually a slightly complicated affair, mixed in with a basic gut-level of class politics, and folk memory of English Iron Masters, and so on. Whilst there is obviously anti-English feeling directed against individual English people from time to time, I would suggest that generally it is directed against aspects of Englishness - i.e. the posh home counties type, rather than people from Redcar or Portsmouth say (and so you could argue that it is just class resentment refracted through nationalism). For most valleys people I would say its not about individual English people at all.

Equally you can argue that Britishness is a fragmenting concept everywhere, you see the re-popularisation of Englishness - reclaiming of the flag of St George, the glorying in specifically english styles - the Mod look etc.

That said of course, welsh nationalist feeling in South Wales at least, has always been counterpointed by a mistrust of welsh nationalism too - the idea that 'monoglots' are seen as slightly inferior creatures. The emergence of a Welsh-speaking upper middle class around the BBC and other institutions doesn't help that.

The dragon has two tongues. . . .


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## lewislewis (Jan 2, 2006)

Of course the politics of national identity can be dangerous, but its a fact that yes 30% of our population isn't from Wales, and that number is increasing. At the same time, there is a trend of increase of those people defining themselves as Welsh.

Britishness is obviously fading, with devolution hastening its ultimate demise.


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## Jelly (Jan 2, 2006)

Gavin Bl said:
			
		

> Whilst there is obviously anti-English feeling directed against individual English people from time to time, I would suggest that generally it is directed against aspects of Englishness - i.e. the posh home counties type, rather than people from Redcar or Portsmouth say (and so you could argue that it is just class resentment refracted through nationalism). For most valleys people I would say its not about individual English people at all.




Interesting.
I'm going back about 25 years and in Glamorgan (near Bridgend) rather than the valleys but while i was at school anti-english feelings were very much personal and directed towards individuals rather than about any conceived idea of historical or class injustice.  Perhaps it was just kids being kids but some of the teachers joined in too.  Even though myself and my brothers (from Bristol - not the home counties types) were certainly less wealthy than the majority of our peers, there was definitely an automatic assumption of 'poshness' attached to us and the other english kids, regardless of social status.

Imo any increased and positive self-identity as Welsh rather than some vague and entirely unsatisfactory Britishness has got to be a good thing as it will surely increase confidence and pride and decrease any resentment that comes from insecurity? Nationalism will always exist but the rise of a more moderate Welsh pride rooted in self-governance will surely dilute and negate some of the more extreme manifestations?

Is devolution responsible for the rise in Welshness or is the rise of Welsh identity simply filling the vaccuum that the decline of Britishness is leaving behind?


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## lewislewis (Jan 2, 2006)

Jelly said:
			
		

> Nationalism will always exist but the rise of a more moderate Welsh pride rooted in self-governance will surely dilute and negate some of the more extreme manifestations?



Yes i'd say so. Extremism expressed in the class room, or in the rugby stand or football stand, often doesn't translate into a proper national identity. Indeed the kids at my school would automatically 'hate' the English, but wouldn't give a damn about devolution, and would typically extend a similar prejudice towards 'Welshies' or Welsh speakers.




			
				Jelly said:
			
		

> Is devolution responsible for the rise in Welshness or is the rise of Welsh identity simply filling the vaccuum that the decline of Britishness is leaving behind?



I don't think devolution is responsible for the rise of Welshness, because devolution wasn't very popular amongst the people of Wales, and still is only at an approval rate of 55-60% of the population (and much of this approval is because the assembly is 'here whether we like it or not').

Welsh identity is indeed filling the vacuum of declining Britishness. Devolution is merely an administrative and political illustration of the decline of the idea of 'Britain'.


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## Dai Sheep (Jan 2, 2006)

I think a lot of anti-English attitude is also a result of a sort of 'defence-machanism' (for want of a better word) in the face of a very powerful English culture- a way of reinforcing the difference between identities. The vast majority of 'British' icons and symbols are also English, especially as viewed by people abroad e.g. green and pleasant land, etc etc. 

I think many people are also aware at the way in which Wales has often been treated with contempt by the British establishment over the centuries (and this is not me being anti-English just stating a fact).  

All of my friends are proud to be Welsh, but mostly wtih a British identity as Well. I find some People in the south-east are also suspicious of the nationalists as there is often a very evident fear/misunderstanding of the Welsh language (maybe a sort of inferiority complex??) - which many automatically associate with nationalism. I myself am a nationalist but I havent always been - I used to feel British, but not any more. I think the people on these islands would get on better if the UK did break up.

Norman Davies in _The Isles: a History _ is a fantastic book and he talks about the break up of Britain - worth a read, interesting book.


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## nwnm (Jan 3, 2006)

Gavin Bl wrote -
"Whilst there is obviously anti-English feeling directed against individual English people from time to time, I would suggest that generally it is directed against aspects of Englishness - i.e. the posh home counties type, rather than people from Redcar or Portsmouth say (and so you could argue that it is just class resentment refracted through nationalism)". 

This is quite an interesting phenomena - however my take on it would differ slightly to yours. Rather than it being class resentment refracted through nationalism, I would argue it is an example of how nationalism has the potential to blur class antagonism. Identifying the ruling class as 'English home counties types' can be used to bury the fact that there is a ruling class, and class antagonism, alive and well in Wales.


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## neprimerimye (Jan 3, 2006)

Gavin Bl said:
			
		

> Equally you can argue that Britishness is a fragmenting concept everywhere, you see the re-popularisation of Englishness - reclaiming of the flag of St George, the glorying in specifically english styles - the Mod look etc.



Why is the 'Mod look' specifically English?

My own take on Mod is that it was a response on the part of young white collar workers to the dress rules imposed on them in the workplaces of the early 1960's and in terms of the music it adopted a response to American R'n'B/Soul. It was in this form that Mod would spread to Australia and new Zealand. Possibly South Africa too but I'm not certain of that - although a South African singer Sharon Tandy did cut some very groovy wax with the Fleur Dy Lys.

The Mod revival of the late 1970's was something different again but i feel certain that Nwnm, a former Face, could tell us more than I of that phenomena. At least as it was in Cardiff.

The point is that Mod is not English but a working class youth style that found a niche in a number of English speaking countries around the same time. Its splitting into hippie and skin factions is another story itself more reflective of class than nation.


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## Red Faction (Jan 3, 2006)

lewislewis said:
			
		

> In your experience, how strong is the Welsh national identity amongst your friends/workmates? Do you feel a 'Welsh-only' identity is more popular in Wales than a 'British-only' identity or a 'Welsh and British at the same time' identity?
> I'm from a typical industrial south Wales town, and in my experience younger people feel *more* Welsh than older people. I don't know what areas of Wales have a stronger or weaker Welsh identity, but i'd imagine industrial South Wales and rural Gwynedd would be the most Welsh areas.
> Is Britishness in decline, or is Welsh identity a passing fad?



I'm not entirely sure what you mean- so forgive my simple answer

all the welsh people i know well are from Llanelli
the are welsh
they dont really feel 'british'- it's a bizarre idea they're not too keen on
not to say they'e ANTI-british or anything
but they're welsh
(one of them welsh is his 1st language)
(one of them doesnt know ANYTHING in welsh)
but they're in no doubt as to what their nationalities are


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## Gavin Bl (Jan 3, 2006)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> The point is that Mod is not English but a working class youth style that found a niche in a number of English speaking countries around the same time. Its splitting into hippie and skin factions is another story itself more reflective of class than nation.



Fair comment, I was reaching for an example - maybe a bit of a stretch on my part, but I think there's some truth in identifying it as a form which is particularly celebrated as an example of 'Englishness



> Identifying the ruling class as 'English home counties types' can be used to bury the fact that there is a ruling class, and class antagonism, alive and well in Wales



True there is a welsh ruling class, but if you look at somewhere like Merthyr, you have the Iron masters, and the 1831 Rising, and the bosses and rulers were English. Is it true to say there was an independent welsh ruling class at the time?

sorry for a rushed response, I have to run now.


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## lewislewis (Jan 3, 2006)

There has never really been a Welsh ruling class in Wales that can be compared in size or significance to the English ruling class in Wales.

In the same way, there is a Palestinian ruling class, there is an Irish ruling class etc etc. 

Mods- the modern revival of the 'Mod' look is a part of English culture, hence the Lambretta Mod shirts with St. George flags, the new range of 'England' t-shirts that are popular, the Minis with Union Jacks on them (although I do like Minis), the specifically English accents used by Mod bands, etc etc. I don't think its accurate for Neprimerimye to suggest there is not an English national component to the Mod look. It is an English thing and proud of it.


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## neprimerimye (Jan 3, 2006)

lewislewis said:
			
		

> There has never really been a Welsh ruling class in Wales that can be compared in size or significance to the English ruling class in Wales.
> 
> In the same way, there is a Palestinian ruling class, there is an Irish ruling class etc etc.
> 
> Mods- the modern revival of the 'Mod' look is a part of English culture, hence the Lambretta Mod shirts with St. George flags, the new range of 'England' t-shirts that are popular, the Minis with Union Jacks on them (although I do like Minis), the specifically English accents used by Mod bands, etc etc. I don't think its accurate for Neprimerimye to suggest there is not an English national component to the Mod look. It is an English thing and proud of it.



There has never been a specifically Welsh bourgeoisie as such that is true. If the bourgeoisie is to be considerd as the ruling class, in fact they generally employ others to adminster their state but thats another question entirely, then it follows that since the suppression of the last independent principality in Wales that there has not been a Welsh ruling class.

However it is historically wrong to claim that there is a specifically English ruling class in Wales either now or at any time since the unification of England and Scotland. What there has been is a British bourgeoisie which has ruled in all three of the countries in mainland Britain. Some of the elements within this class have had a very distinct Scots, Welsh or English regional characters due to their origin and/or place of business. Although individual bourgeois are influential in various regions even now it seems ridiculous to suggest that in 2006 that we have anything of like this given the tendencies towards both monopolisation and globalisation. Even a specifically British bourgeoisie seems a questionable proposition today.

The point is not that there was not an English bourgeoisie in Wales but that various Welsh bourgeois formed part of a British bourgeoisie which ruled over England ever bit as much as it ruled over Wales. In general the situation of workers and farmers in the Wales of the last two centuries was about class and exploitation not nation and oppression. Pointing this out is not to deny in any way the oppression of Welsh speakers but does place the emphasis on that factor which the majority of the population had in common. The repression of Welsh by contrast was something which a sizeable part of the population were not affected by and cannot in any case be conflated with the nation as such.

On Mod. My remarks were made concerning the original rather large scale Mod movement of the early 1960's not of the small movement of today. Which is presumably a revival of the Mod revival of the late 1970's. I'm unaware of cuirrent Mod groups displaying an interest in nationalism that goes deeper than singing in their own accents or wearing some silly logo. If you have knowledge of say fash links I'd be curious to learn of them.


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## coastloop (Jan 3, 2006)

Welsh people can't help but have a Welsh identity. When I was at school every year I took part in an Eisteddfod. We were taught Welsh History and at school we all learnt Welsh. As I grew up all the signs in Wales were bilingual and all our bills came in Welsh aswell as English. 

Living in Wales is alot different than living elsewhere in the UK.


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## lewislewis (Jan 3, 2006)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> On Mod. My remarks were made concerning the original rather large scale Mod movement of the early 1960's not of the small movement of today. Which is presumably a revival of the Mod revival of the late 1970's. I'm unaware of cuirrent Mod groups displaying an interest in nationalism that goes deeper than singing in their own accents or wearing some silly logo. If you have knowledge of say fash links I'd be curious to learn of them.



Good comments about the Welsh bourgeoise.

I was talking about the modern revival of mod which is an English thing, because the original poster said about signs of growing Englishness being; the reclaiming of the St.George's flag, and the mod revival. I don't think the revived young English culture, heavily mod influenced, has any nasty or fascist links, its just what they're into. The new crop of indie bands from England make a big show of stressing London accents (regardless of whether they're from London), not sure whether I can name any specific bands but i'm sure someone with a better musical knowledge than myself will be able to. Hope that clears it up.


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## nwnm (Jan 3, 2006)

"There has never really been a Welsh ruling class in Wales that can be compared in size or significance to the English ruling class in Wales."

so Terry Mathews (worth more than £1,000 millon), David Sullivan (worth more than £400 million), Sir Julian Hodge (more than £80 million), Lord Mostyn (more than £25 million), and Robert Peacock (more than £78 million) are a figment of the imagination then? Looking back into history, lets quote good old Gwyn A Williams on the Tudor period (remember him? Welsh king of England) "Anything from a third to half of the Welsh people lived on or below the poverty line. But among the landowners clustering thick in commercial Glamorgan and Monmouth in the south and along the critical Irish road in the north were some of the richest squires in contemporary europe." 

"Mods- the modern revival of the 'Mod' look is a part of English culture, hence the Lambretta Mod shirts with St. George flags, the new range of 'England' t-shirts that are popular, the Minis with Union Jacks on them (although I do like Minis), the specifically English accents used by Mod bands, etc etc. I don't think its accurate for Neprimerimye to suggest there is not an English national component to the Mod look. It is an English thing and proud of it." 

Not so I'm afraid. The country with the largest mod scene at the moment appears to be Japan! The mod look has always been a rebellion against English culture. Italian style suits, French line haircuts, Jamaican Ska, American Soul Music and R'n'B, Latin Jazz. If you talk about the first wave of Mod bands they were influenced by all of the above plus modern art movements. The Who by pop art and Meher Baba's auto Destruct movement - hence union jacks CUT UP and turned into jackets, and smashed guitars, and the Creation by Russian Art "Our music is red with purple flashes" The second wave of mod bands (the Jam et al) were influenced by erm the first wave of Mod bands and the enrgy of Punk. Not forgetting of course that those who managed the first wave of Punk bands were products of the Mod generation, (Which is why Generation X sung of being in love with Cathy McGowan - the presenter of Ready Steady Go BTW).


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## nwnm (Jan 3, 2006)

"The new crop of indie bands from England make a big show of stressing London accents (regardless of whether they're from London), not sure whether I can name any specific bands but i'm sure someone with a better musical knowledge than myself will be able to. Hope that clears it up"

Sorry, just spotted this. The new crop of indie bands are anathema to the majority of modern day mods, although a few of them may rate the Ordinary Boys or Futureheads, they would rarely admit it to their mates. More interested in finding some elusive soul record etc. They have their own bands/labels such as Detour Records, Biff Bang Pow records and Bip Bip (a Spanish Record label).These either cater for retrospectives of 70s/80's Mod bands or new ones. And there is a thriving rare soul fan base catered to by Kent Records. But it has to be said, there isn't a great deal of interest in ANY form of politics. Even Skinheads don't have much time for fascism these days. Thats more the preserve for footy hooligans and chavs


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## neprimerimye (Jan 3, 2006)

nwnm said:
			
		

> "There has never really been a Welsh ruling class in Wales that can be compared in size or significance to the English ruling class in Wales."
> 
> so Terry Mathews (worth more than £1,000 millon), David Sullivan (worth more than £400 million), Sir Julian Hodge (more than £80 million), Lord Mostyn (more than £25 million), and Robert Peacock (more than £78 million) are a figment of the imagination then? Looking back into history, lets quote good old Gwyn A Williams on the Tudor period (remember him? Welsh king of England) "Anything from a third to half of the Welsh people lived on or below the poverty line. But among the landowners clustering thick in commercial Glamorgan and Monmouth in the south and along the critical Irish road in the north were some of the richest squires in contemporary europe."
> 
> Not so I'm afraid. The country with the largest mod scene at the moment appears to be Japan! The mod look has always been a rebellion against English culture. Italian style suits, French line haircuts, Jamaican Ska, American Soul Music and R'n'B, Latin Jazz. If you talk about the first wave of Mod bands they were influenced by all of the above plus modern art movements. The Who by pop art and Meher Baba's auto Destruct movement - hence union jacks CUT UP and turned into jackets, and smashed guitars, and the Creation by Russian Art "Our music is red with purple flashes" The second wave of mod bands (the Jam et al) were influenced by erm the first wave of Mod bands and the enrgy of Punk. Not forgetting of course that those who managed the first wave of Punk bands were products of the Mod generation, (Which is why Generation X sung of being in love with Cathy McGowan - the presenter of Ready Steady Go BTW).



Sorry Nwnm but the existence of a handful of rich capitalists of Welsh nationality does not signify the existence of a Welsh ruling class or bourgeoisie. What is does prove is that there are individual capitalists who are Welsh. I can only suggest that in future you avoid commenting on matters you clearly do not understand. Although if you wish to make a case for the existence of a specifically Welsh bourgeoisie, which I think in fact you do not, then feel free to go ahead and give us all a laugh.

Happily you do understand Mod. Far more so than most on this list judgeing from your informed post. I've a CDR somewhere around here for you of the Sharon Tandy stuff I mentioned previously btw. (Dunno what Meher fucking Baba had to do with Auto-destruction mind)


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## lewislewis (Jan 4, 2006)

nwnm said:
			
		

> "The new crop of indie bands from England make a big show of stressing London accents (regardless of whether they're from London), not sure whether I can name any specific bands but i'm sure someone with a better musical knowledge than myself will be able to. Hope that clears it up"
> 
> Sorry, just spotted this. The new crop of indie bands are anathema to the majority of modern day mods, although a few of them may rate the Ordinary Boys or Futureheads, they would rarely admit it to their mates. More interested in finding some elusive soul record etc. They have their own bands/labels such as Detour Records, Biff Bang Pow records and Bip Bip (a Spanish Record label).These either cater for retrospectives of 70s/80's Mod bands or new ones. And there is a thriving rare soul fan base catered to by Kent Records. But it has to be said, there isn't a great deal of interest in ANY form of politics. Even Skinheads don't have much time for fascism these days. Thats more the preserve for footy hooligans and chavs



I didn't say it had anything to do with politics, your genuine enthusiasm for the subject seems to be clouding your perception of what it is I actually said.

My point is that the current indie trend in England (with characteristics that are reminiscent of mod) is part of English culture, not Welsh culture or Scottish culture or whatever, which is why some of the symbols of this 'retro' look are specifically English. That's why they put union jacks on the roof of their cars, and in the logos of their clothing companies. 
Another symptom of the rise of Englishness is the proliferation of St. George's Flags. Have a look at the crowd in the 1966 Final, they used to wave Union Flags, now they are specifically English. It is nothing to do with nationalism or politics, its just the rise of their national identity.

I agree that there is a worrying trend of fascism and xenophobia amongst football hooligans, luckily the hooligans in Wales aren't very politicised.


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## nwnm (Jan 4, 2006)

I was agreeing with this part of your post "I don't think the revived young English culture, heavily mod influenced, has any nasty or fascist links"


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## neprimerimye (Jan 4, 2006)

lewislewis said:
			
		

> That's why they put union jacks on the roof of their cars, and in the logos of their clothing companies.
> 
> It is nothing to do with nationalism or politics, its just the rise of their national identity.
> 
> I agree that there is a worrying trend of fascism and xenophobia amongst football hooligans, luckily the hooligans in Wales aren't very politicised.



Surely the placing of logos on clothing is done by the company which manufactures the items in question? In which case they might be said to be manufacturing national identity.

Although my enthusiasm for all sports is well known I'm unaware of the rise of fascist and xenophobic trends among followers of the association game. Perhaps some evidence for this opinion could be provided?


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## Gavin Bl (Jan 4, 2006)

nwnm said:
			
		

> Not so I'm afraid. The country with the largest mod scene at the moment appears to be Japan! The mod look has always been a rebellion against English culture. Italian style suits, French line haircuts, Jamaican Ska, American Soul Music and R'n'B, Latin Jazz. If you talk about the first wave of Mod bands they were influenced by all of the above plus modern art movements. The Who by pop art and Meher Baba's auto Destruct movement - hence union jacks CUT UP and turned into jackets, and smashed guitars, and the Creation by Russian Art "Our music is red with purple flashes" The second wave of mod bands (the Jam et al) were influenced by erm the first wave of Mod bands and the enrgy of Punk. Not forgetting of course that those who managed the first wave of Punk bands were products of the Mod generation, (Which is why Generation X sung of being in love with Cathy McGowan - the presenter of Ready Steady Go BTW).



Its not being suggested that Mod is of English origin - but that aspects of the style are part of a new interpretation of 'young' Englishness, alongside things like the repopularisation of the flag of St George (stripping it largely of its fascist associations) - which seem to be part of a splintering of Britishness, of which growing interest in Welsh cultural identity is another part.



> Devolution is merely an administrative and political illustration of the decline of the idea of 'Britain'.



Don't think I agree with that - groups like Cymdeithas Yr Iaith Cymraeg were part of forcing the issue, rather than just emerging from the wreckage. Growing welsh cultural identity is an entity in its own right, and led to demands for greater political independence - rather than just something that has escaped as Britishness has declined. The two may be interrelated, but one is not just a passive product of the other.


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## lewislewis (Jan 4, 2006)

You're right Gavin, of course devolution was won in a hard fought battle by Welsh nationalist organisations and campaigns. Devolution was a concession to Welsh nationalism which kind of worked in stalling Plaid for a few elections. I was wrong in my earlier assumption, and i'll put it on record that devolution was the result of a) the growing Welsh identity and b) the decline of Britishness. 
My point was, devolution itself was a product of Welsh identity, but it hasn't really done much to spur on that identity since, largely because the project is weak and ineffective.


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## Gavin Bl (Jan 4, 2006)

yeah Lewis, I think they are interlinked, and its hard to separate them out in a chicken and egg type way.


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## neprimerimye (Jan 4, 2006)

lewislewis said:
			
		

> You're right Gavin, of course devolution was won in a hard fought battle by Welsh nationalist organisations and campaigns. Devolution was a concession to Welsh nationalism which kind of worked in stalling Plaid for a few elections. I was wrong in my earlier assumption, and i'll put it on record that devolution was the result of a) the growing Welsh identity and b) the decline of Britishness.
> My point was, devolution itself was a product of Welsh identity, but it hasn't really done much to spur on that identity since, largely because the project is weak and ineffective.



If I understand you correctly Lewis you are saying that devolution is the result of the changing IDEAS held by the electorate in Wales. This is, of course, true, but it does not address or even approach the far more fundamental question as to why those ideas have changed. I'd be interested to read your thoughts on this proposition with regard to national consciousness/identity in Wales.


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## Karac (Jan 4, 2006)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> If I understand you correctly Lewis you are saying that devolution is the result of the changing IDEAS held by the electorate in Wales. This is, of course, true, but it does not address or even approach the far more fundamental question as to why those ideas have changed. I'd be interested to read your thoughts on this proposition with regard to national consciousness/identity in Wales.



I think ideas have changed in Wales because "Britain" no longer really exists and hasnt really done so for a while.
The 6 counties of Ireland are barely "British" anymore if they ever were.
Scotland increasingly has a completely independent character.
Wales has been given the taster of a semi-autonomous Assembly.
On a wider level Global Capitalism couldnt give a fuck if was dealing with UKPLC or the Welsh Assembly.


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## neprimerimye (Jan 5, 2006)

Karac said:
			
		

> I think ideas have changed in Wales because "Britain" no longer really exists and hasnt really done so for a while.
> The 6 counties of Ireland are barely "British" anymore if they ever were.
> Scotland increasingly has a completely independent character.
> Wales has been given the taster of a semi-autonomous Assembly.
> On a wider level Global Capitalism couldnt give a fuck if was dealing with UKPLC or the Welsh Assembly.



Karac your remarks only relate to IDEAS. Allow me to make myself clear. In order to make sense your remark concerning Britain no longer existing can only refer to the IDEA of Britain. For it is clear that the British state is still very much in existance is it not? Similarly it is obviously absurd to say that Scotland "has an independent character" when in point of fact it remains a part of the British state. Unless of course one is refering to the IDEA of Scotland.

Now it so happens that i consider that the IDEA of Britain still has avery strong hold on many people especially those of the older generations. The material reality of the British state is in any case far more important. But what I'm curious to learn from yourself and lewis is do you think that there is something underlying the changes in national consciousness/identity which, I think we are all agreed, have been taking place in recent years?

Finally I agree that capitalism would be no less happy to deal with a Welsh Assembly than a British Parliament. In which case a sovereign Welsh Assembly would not represent any kind of gain for the working classes in Wales.


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## Belushi (Jan 5, 2006)

> do you think that there is something underlying the changes in national consciousness/identity which, I think we are all agreed, have been taking place in recent years?



For my family in the valleys (traditionally CPGB/Labour supporters, now Plaid) it was the Thatcher years that finished off any believe they once may have had in the UK/Britain.


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## neprimerimye (Jan 5, 2006)

Belushi said:
			
		

> For my family in the valleys (traditionally CPGB/Labour supporters, now Plaid) it was the Thatcher years that finished off any believe they once may have had in the UK/Britain.



Could you elaborate please?


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## Gavin Bl (Jan 5, 2006)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> Could you elaborate please?



hopefully, I'm not putting words into belushi's mouth here - but at some level, alot of Scots and Welsh saw themselves living in virtually Tory-free countries, whist being battered by a Tory goverment elected in, and operating out of England. Sure areas of England got it in the neck too, but at least there was a Tory majority in that country. Slaps in the face like Redwood hoplessly miming to 'Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau', are hilarious on 'Have I got News for You?', and I had a good laugh at him too, but it also smacks of that right-wing English 'clarkson' attitude that wales is a joke country with a joke language, that deepened a sense of national grievance, and helped to give a more widespread sympathy to ideas of semi-autonomy. Also, when the established left parties in the valleys fuck up, Plaid is the natural protest vote.

I think stuff like this gae a more overtly political edge to previous primary preoccupations with language and culture. 

But I am no expert on this, and would be happy to be corrected by someone who is.


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## lewislewis (Jan 5, 2006)

Gavin Bl said:
			
		

> hopefully, I'm not putting words into belushi's mouth here - but at some level, alot of Scots and Welsh saw themselves living in virtually Tory-free countries, whist being battered by a Tory goverment elected in, and operating out of England. Sure areas of England got it in the neck too, but at least there was a Tory majority in that country. Slaps in the face like Redwood hoplessly miming to 'Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau', are hilarious on 'Have I got News for You?', and I had a good laugh at him too, but it also smacks of that right-wing English 'clarkson' attitude that wales is a joke country with a joke language, that deepened a sense of national grievance, and helped to give a more widespread sympathy to ideas of semi-autonomy. Also, when the established left parties in the valleys fuck up, Plaid is the natural protest vote.
> 
> I think stuff like this gae a more overtly political edge to previous primary preoccupations with language and culture.
> 
> But I am no expert on this, and would be happy to be corrected by someone who is.



Yes this is why my family turned towards Welsh nationalism after previously being Labour, because of Thatcherism and the English character of Thatcherism. England is a lost cause, there are, bizarrely, loads of  people there that love Thatcher! Even some workers! What is going on there?!


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## lewislewis (Jan 5, 2006)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> If I understand you correctly Lewis you are saying that devolution is the result of the changing IDEAS held by the electorate in Wales. This is, of course, true, but it does not address or even approach the far more fundamental question as to why those ideas have changed. I'd be interested to read your thoughts on this proposition with regard to national consciousness/identity in Wales.



Yes the electorate's ideas have changed, more people have embraced the idea of being Welsh because being British is a declining idea. Filling the void, if you will.

There are various historical, social, political and cultural factors behind Welsh national consciousness. The historical factors are that Wales has always had a tradition of people rising up to try and gain national freedom. Welsh people tend to love their history and this gets passed on through the generations, despite the absence of a Welsh curriculum. The cultural factors are probably to do with Methodism, the Church in Wales, Labour no longer being an outlet for Welsh patriotism, etc etc.  The most important factor would be the overall deprivation in Wales compared to England for the past God knows how many years...i'll discuss this in another post tomorrow, i'm really tired now (been working a long shift).


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## Jelly (Jan 6, 2006)

lewislewis said:
			
		

> England is a lost cause



That's not true it's entirely more complex than that. Social divisions deepened under Thatch and they've been glossed over by Blair but that's not to say there isn't a lot of hope and good people working towards something better.  What happened in Wales and Scotland under Thatch also happened in England, which i know you acknowledge.




			
				lewislewis said:
			
		

> there are, bizarrely, loads of people there that love Thatcher! Even some workers! What is going on there?!



That is true - although not bizarre - she stands for a right-wing ideology that a lot of people believe in. Agree or disagree you can't deny there are a lot of idiots in the world.

I would tentatively suggest, in response to Gavin Bl, that it wasn't Thatcher's policies that polarised attitudes in Wales, Scotland (and some areas in England) as much as Blair and Labour's uncomfortable shift to the right that has left many communities falling into the arms of more extreme political (nationalist?) movements. 

I too am only half guessing this and would love to here other opinions.


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## Belushi (Jan 6, 2006)

> hopefully, I'm not putting words into belushi's mouth here



Nah, agree completely with you and lewis.


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## lewislewis (Jan 6, 2006)

Jelly said:
			
		

> That's not true it's entirely more complex than that. Social divisions deepened under Thatch and they've been glossed over by Blair but that's not to say there isn't a lot of hope and good people working towards something better.  What happened in Wales and Scotland under Thatch also happened in England, which i know you acknowledge.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I find it hard to believe that the pro-Tory workers are all idiots, misguided maybe but workers in Scotland and England don't vote Conservative as a rule.

Yes I guess there is a faint hope in England, because in my opinion those English that do vote Labour, still see it as a 'socialist' party (usually meaning a reformist socialist party, not a revolutionary/Marxist one). That is hopeful, BUT then we have this phenomenon which i've seen referred to as 'Middle England', 'the Centre Ground', 'the Middle Ground'...John Reid MP (Defence Sec) referred to it the other day, and seemed to make out that in England this 'Middle Ground' decided who wins elections, and the way to win the election was to appeal to these Middle Englanders.

These wierdos must be pretty numerous, because its their swing votes which decide whether the Tories or New Labour get in office. Thus, my point is that England only elects conservative governments since Thatcher (with a small 'c', they might be masquerading as Labour).

A couple of lessons need to be learnt here;
a) people in Wales vote differently to people in England, 
b) England has this tradition of a fair number of workers voting for the Conservatives.
c) England is a basically conservative country in its culture and political history, when compared to Wales.
d) the 'Middle Ground' or Middle England swing voters decide elections in England, are scared of 'socialism' and want economic growth, low spending, low taxes etc etc, maybe they are Thatcher's legacy?
e) When Brown becomes Labour leader, the Middle Ground will abandon him and elect Cameron. Wales will then be governed by Conservatism, even though we never voted for it ! Would people like Neprimerimye agree that this was undemocratic and had to change??


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