# A thread about the USA



## lyra_k (Sep 13, 2006)

If you've lived in the USA, visited it, met an American, whatever, did the experience confirm or contradict the ugly stereotype of the typical bible-bashing, conservative, unworldly oaf or barbie doll that seems so prevalent in the UK?

The only stereotypes I've really found to have some truth in them are that 

1 - yeah, Americans don't tend to know much about European geography, although their knowledge of their own country, and central and south America seems to exceed that of your average Brit

2 - they ARE much friendlier in general than Brits, which can come across as a biit sickly, but is for the most part genuine niceness.

I was going to make this a poll, but there are too many variables, so post your experiences here.


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## Roadkill (Sep 13, 2006)

I've only visited the USA once, and I loved it.  Very welcoming, friendly place and I didn't meet anyone who lived up to either the ignorant or the bible-thumping stereotypes.  

I did intend to keep my political views reasonably quiet, but on the first night I was there our hosts were the ones who started the anti-Republican ranting.  

That was New England, though.


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## phildwyer (Sep 13, 2006)

I've lived in America for most of my adult life--New York, Washington, Philadelphia--and have travelled all over the country.  It is a land of extremes.  The best-eductaed and most intelligent people I've ever met have been, without any doubt, Americans.  But so have the least-educated and most ignorant people.  I suppose it is no surprise to learn that one cannot generalize about a country populated by people from every other country.  And yet people *will* insist on generalizing about Americans, as we see daily on these boards.


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## DRINK? (Sep 13, 2006)

I've loved the ol US whenever I've been there and Americans,  saying that have only ever spent time on the East coast...NY, Baltimore, Washington, Philly etc and think the attitude, culture is not that far removed from London. Is easy to sterotype the place but in my experience very misguided....pretty much liek all stereotying I guess


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## Loki (Sep 13, 2006)

Similar to phildwyer really. I've lived in the USA too, (DC) and also visited the deep south and experienced most of the extremes and like you say it defies categorisation. Generally very warm and hospitable, although far too complacent about the information they are being fed (note: generally!)

As for taking the mickey, well it's a brit thing and they do take the piss out of themselves too to be fair. Besides it's fun


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## kyser_soze (Sep 13, 2006)

The one thing I've found with Merkins, both when I was in country and abroad, is an openess/enthusiasm/willingness to 'do' stuff, and a real lack of cynicism/irony about life - to the point that some intelligent Merkins I've met come over as dumb farm-hands in their earnestness.

In all honesty I've probably met an example of the main Merkin stereotypes - from East Coast liberal thru Heartlanders with good hearts but fucked ideas about the rest of the world thru to Californians (who I'm convinced are a different species of human being) who manage to combine other-worldliness with a biting cynicism that would make a Frenchman look optimistic.

But that's to be expected in a country of 300 million people that's comprised of 50 different countries that share a government, language and vaguely the same ideas about the world (IME the reality of the US is that it's as varied as Europe in culture and ideas, but has a far stronger sense of how all of those plug into the national identity)? I like Merky and Merkins, it's just sometimes that enthusiasm and lack of sophistication results in the kind of mass-blindness that allows someone like Shrub to be elected.


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## dirtysanta (Sep 13, 2006)

I spent a lot of time in the states and my general opinion of the Yanks is very high. They have always been very welcoming and very friendly. America is a big, fairly insular place and after staying in some of the midwest and deeper southern states its true that some know very little about what goes on outside the US, but, given this size and the fact the the majority have never been out of the country its understandable. Its so vast that at times i felt i was travelling between countries not states. !


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## Yossarian (Sep 13, 2006)

I've met racist white Alabamans, cool New Yorkers, and weirdo Kentucky hillbillies, and a lot of other Americans who didn't live up to any stereotype, but there's no way I was going to try and stereotype a quarter of a billion people anyway.

Most of the Americans I've met have been really sound - a few of them *were* ignorant arseholes, but I guess the odds were that I was going to meet some Bush voters at some point...


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## lyra_k (Sep 13, 2006)

phildwyer said:
			
		

> I've lived in America for most of my adult life--New York, Washington, Philadelphia--and have travelled all over the country.  It is a land of extremes.  The best-eductaed and most intelligent people I've ever met have been, without any doubt, Americans.  But so have the least-educated and most ignorant people.  I suppose it is no surprise to learn that one cannot generalize about a country populated by people from every other country.  And yet people *will* insist on generalizing about Americans, as we see daily on these boards.



I've never been to the proper deep south, or the north west, but other than that have travelled here quite a lot, and have lived both on the east coast and the west.  There are regional variations, of course - someone who's only been to Manhattan hasn't really got a broad view of the country as a whole (if there's any such thing), but even in places like Oklahoma (where mr k is from) are IME pretty far from the stereotype of the bible-bashing midwest....


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## William of Walworth (Sep 13, 2006)

Only went to San Francisco and a few other parts of California (in 1990) then only to Boston (in 1995).

Taught me a lot about questioning stereotypes that experience -- very few redneck Bible Belt Republican types that I encountered. 

I suppose I didn't tour enough of the US to get more than a very limited picture though.

I've put stuff up here VERY critical of Bush, NeoCon Republicans, creationists, US Christian fundaMENTALists, gun lunatics, etc. While having a  LOT of time for more liberal/left-inclined Americans, of whom there are plenty.

I've still got called anti-American for this though.


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## phildwyer (Sep 13, 2006)

As Kyser implies, the blanket of patriotism thrown up by the US media and government covers an incredibly diverse nation.  Forget the whole country: single American states like New York or California as as varied as Europe in their culture and ideas.  More, in fact.  An Inuit has little in common with an Apache, and yet they share more in common with each other than either does with European culture.


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## Yossarian (Sep 13, 2006)

William of Walworth said:
			
		

> I've still got called anti-American for this though.




That must be 'coz you hate freedom....


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## Pie 1 (Sep 13, 2006)

On my many,many visits to the US  I have found people to be welcoming, warm and generous. I have made many life long friends there who are intelligent knowlgable people who dispise what is happening as much as anyone.
It is an indescribably varied country that has some of the most breathtaking natural beauty to be found on the planet and overall is a far cry from the narsasistc, self serving representation presented by those cunts calling themselves the govenment.

On a another note, I find the race and wealth divisions still very accute and very depressing. As I do the obsession with firearms (which has included some of the aforementioned intellegent people  )
I must also admit that some people who come across as warm generous and welcoming can retract that quite quickly once opinions start to be voiced (it's just better to keep your mouth shut in Texas!)

I've enjoyed some of the best travelling I ever done in the States so overall America - the real life, everyday place - is alright by me.


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## stevepinker (Sep 13, 2006)

I've been to the USA many times and lived there on and off, it always cracks me up to hear people talk about americans as if its O.K to hate its people 

While at the same time talking about how it wasn't that bad when they where mugged in Brixton, After all one violent beating should be what you base your views on 

I met some of the nicess and friendly people while in american


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## William of Walworth (Sep 13, 2006)

The post of dwyer that lyra k just quoted (I can't see them otherwise -- he's on ignore) is reasonable enough except for the last sentence.

What some (not just dwyer) assume, or want to assume,  is sweeping Urban anti-Americanism, is as often as not much better specified and focussed criticisms of some Amercians, some aspects of American politics and life. Most people who here who hate George Bush's strand of Republicanism [to use lazy shorthand, but you know what I'm getting at] are perfectly well aware that there are plenty of other Americans who oppose him and his politics.

I'm off the thread now because I have no wish to get into yet another row with dwyer by proxy.


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## lyra_k (Sep 13, 2006)

kyser_soze said:
			
		

> But that's to be expected in a country of 300 million people that's comprised of 50 different countries that share a government, language and vaguely the same ideas about the world (IME the reality of the US is that it's as varied as Europe in culture and ideas, but has a far stronger sense of how all of those plug into the national identity)?



I think it's quite an important point that although many Americans haven't been outside their country (I don't know if that famous statistic about only 5% of American having passports is true, but it wouldn't surprise me), even to have travelled a lot within the country encompasses huge distances (far more than, say, having travelled around Europe for a Brit), different climates and time zones and cultural variations.  Not to mention the expense; it's pretty easy and cheap to travel around Europe if you're in Europe already, but leaving the US for other continents costs a fortune and is out of reach financially for the vast majority.


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## William of Walworth (Sep 13, 2006)

Yossarian said:
			
		

> That must be 'coz you hate freedom....



 

Yeah, loathe it ...


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## phildwyer (Sep 13, 2006)

lyra_k said:
			
		

> I think it's quite an important point that although many Americans haven't been outside their country (I don't know if that famous statistic about only 5% of American having passports is true, but it wouldn't surprise me)



Remember also that Americans don't (at present) need a passport to visit Canada, Mexico or much of the Caribbean, so this figure is a little misleading.


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## lyra_k (Sep 13, 2006)

William of Walworth said:
			
		

> I'm off the thread now because I have no wish to get into yet another row with dwyer by proxy.



oh don't leave, William, just don't get into it with him.  You have the power!


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## obanite (Sep 13, 2006)

Been there a few times, people are  Met a few who carried guns which I found kind of strange, just discussing it with them. NYC was fun, liked it a lot and wouldn't mind going back there someday soon.


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## zoltan (Sep 13, 2006)

Can I contribute?

Ive lived in the colonies a couple of times and the physical landscape of th the USA is utterly breathtaking.

but this isnt about the landscape is it.

You only notice the dumb Merikans if you're a brit and the libral, straight, witty, urbane, literate ones dont stay in your memory for whatever reason - you remember extremes.

Grasp of world affairs is taken by us brits as a sign of de facto intelligence ( which its not of course ) and thats where the colonials let themselevs down. Its not their fault, but unless it has a US slant, overseas news doesnt filter down to the mass media too well, so they averge citizen can seem a little uninformed about things - I recently spent an afternoon in a daze in beiijing watching FOX on satelite and It was hard to believe it wasnt a Chris Morris production  -  thats an extreme of course

They are pretty friendly, child like in many ways of you compare them to the formality of the French & the Germans

I think hat spooks us is the patriotism and the flag. We have too many memories of flag waving in europe - bei ti WW2 or the Ebloc natioalism & are slighty wary of it.

Their pubs are shit though & their views on alchohol are almost Dark ages.( I may be biased here, as I did spend a night in a county jail once  )


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## xenon (Sep 13, 2006)

I visited New York for a few days that's about it.

It did confirm every stereotype I had about New York. Which was cool because that's why I wanted to go there. Of course I know New York is not particularly representative of the US as a whole. If you can say the US as a whole.


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## Pieface (Sep 13, 2006)

I lived in Oregon when I was six for a year and so my experience is obviously coloured by infancy ().

I _loved _it - it was my introduction to another culture at a point where I was just old enough to absorb it.  I could speak to these people but they were nothing like me and every day something happened that reminded me I wasn't from their country.  Pledging Allegiance at school (I used to do it when I "felt" like it!) , using different words and using some they had but in a different place.  The school was new and shiney with spacey touches like a lunch trolley that came to you and a tray with compartments for everything (I'd been at a _tiny _C of E village school prior to this) and soft play stuff in the library.  We played with parachutes in PE and the yard had a fucking adventure playground in it with bark chippings to make us bounce when we fell - the smell of them still takes me back to recess 

Everyone was very friendly and even over-friendly I expect but I'd rather be a Brit starting anew in America than an American starting anew in Britain in terms of inter-personal relations.  It just had a more welcoming veneer.

It has the most varied landscape due to its size and that was the main impact it made on me - but I know we're talking about the people here.

Basically, they had a confidence in themselves and in their country that was alien to me, which is taught from a young age - contrary to the way I was schooled.  I think this is something that is central to the American psyche and the people I was friends with back that up.   I think that is a stereotype that prevails but probably only among the privileged strata of society these days.  I'm not sure - I've never been back.


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## Yossarian (Sep 13, 2006)

I started getting on with Americans a lot better when I realised that just because we speak the same language it doesn't mean they're not a completely foreign people.


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## Yossarian (Sep 13, 2006)

My first double post in five fuckin' years!


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## radiohead (Sep 13, 2006)

great thread this. i've never been to america but do hate with a burning passion the outward impression the place is giving out. then again, i suppose, so would a great deal of americans.


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## lyra_k (Sep 13, 2006)

PieEye said:
			
		

> I'd rather be a Brit starting anew in America than an American starting anew in Britain in terms of inter-personal relations.



I'd definitely agree with that, having moved to a completely different part of the UK as an adult myself, and found it excrutiatingly unwelcoming, cliquey and prejudiced against southerners.   That was about the unhappiest year of my life.


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## jay1978 (Sep 13, 2006)

my partner is american and about as anit-capitalist and active as they come.
i;ve visted her a few times in san francisco and have to say the place is ace.
not really been anywhere else (yet) although met her folks in her hometown of pittsburg. that felt like a bastardised version of newcastle, leeds and sheffield. 
people generally are more chatty and friendly straight away (although this is nice im a get to know you person). they also see us as being alcoholics. her family on her dads side are pretty much rednecks, but were walm and welcoming to us as a queer couple. (without the douchebag comments we get in england by straight guys) i did get pulled over by her cousin and told me he'd fuck me up if i broke my girls heart..ahh. but yeah they were sweet, for having served in iraq for a few years and loving their guns, they're pretty much like my nutcase british cousins.


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## Wolveryeti (Sep 13, 2006)

I can't really generalise about how nice Americans are as a whole - my impression was that they've got all sorts just like any country. The friendliness of absolutely everyone did begin to grate after awhile, because it stopped meaning anything (and made me feel like I was in Communist Russia). I was also shocked by the lack of public transport and how rubbish it was. One stereotype which rings very true for me is American's addiction to driving everywhere. I asked an assistant at the information desk of a mall how best to walk to the Henry Ford Museum (about 3 miles away). She looked at me as if I had just politely asked her what she looked like naked. I soon understood why. About 50 metres down from the mall, the pavement abruptly stopped and turned into road with a tiny muddy verge to walk on, with loads of Yank drivers beeping us.

I don't really like Americans, and I don't really like the U.S.


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## Wilson (Sep 13, 2006)

ive been there and all over, met loads of people there, everyone was always nice, polite, friendly and open otw, much like most other places where ive been, sure enough some of them have quite different opinions to me   but i never felt there would be a problem if i had politely voiced them, even the gun mad texan dog killer


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## mack (Sep 13, 2006)

As a family we went to the USA on a fly drive motel thing when I was 10 (1980) it was great, my dad managed to crash the hired Thunderbird into a greyhound within 2 minutes of getting in it.

We went to Vegas, LA, San Fran, San Diego and a few other places, Hoover Dam and the Sequioa (big tree place) park and Hollywood were all great.

I'd love to visit again one day so I can appreciate the vastness of the place a bit better.


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## Neva (Sep 13, 2006)

William of Walworth said:
			
		

> What some (not just dwyer) assume, or want to assume,  is sweeping Urban anti-Americanism, is as often as not much better specified and focussed criticisms of some Amercians, some aspects of American politics and life. Most people who here who hate George Bush's strand of Republicanism [to use lazy shorthand, but you know what I'm getting at] are perfectly well aware that there are plenty of other Americans who oppose him and his politics.



Actually I agree with Dwyer. Urban is very anti-American. A lot of the time it's valid points but I read more ridiculous generalisations and uninformed opinions about the States than I do on any other country or population.


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## Chorlton (Sep 13, 2006)

No country that produces that much good music can be bad

end.of


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## Chorlton (Sep 13, 2006)

Neva said:
			
		

> Urban is very anti-American.



britain (in particular the left) is very anti-american

this board just accurately reflects this - not everyone on the left in britain is, not everyone on these boards are, but it gives an accurate reflection of british peoples thoughts IMO


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## Paulaviki (Sep 13, 2006)

I have american cousins, who originally lived in Seattle, then spread out and moved to Florida, Vegas, San Francisco amongst other places, they don't fit any of the stereotypes of Americans, and they are mormons.  One of them got married in the Caribbean a few years back and all their mates from the USA were lovely.

I've also been to America 3 times, once when I was very small (had my first birthday and took my first steps in LA), once when I was 11 (Disney) and a few years back stopped in LA on the way back from New Zealand.  I can't really think of anything bad to say at all.  I do think Americans on the whole are very friendly, but to be honest find myself questioning how sincere they are.......

I think some of the issues people tend to have with america is more to do with a way of life, the whole fast food/junk food thing, the driving massive engined cars which do serious damage to the environment, the still having the dealth penalty in some states, the having someone like Bush in charge etc.


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## William of Walworth (Sep 13, 2006)

Neva said:
			
		

> Actually I agree with Dwyer. Urban is very anti-American. A lot of the time it's valid points but I read more ridiculous generalisations and uninformed opinions about the States than I do on any other country or population.



That reaction is dictated by your own politics, surely? I'm not sure what your particular attidude to George Bush is, but you (at least) are CERTAINLY smart enough to distinguish between opposition to Bush/NeoCon Republicans/current US foreign policiy [etc.] and hatred of all Americans.

So get wiser -- there aren't too many Urban people (IMO) who just unthinkingly hate all Americans or all aspects of America. (Bear in mind I rarely go on P and P though, and almost never on World Affairs).

If people are slack in their phrasing and do say overgeneralising stuff, it's surely more effective for you to pull them up without _assuming_ they hate all Americans and everything about the country -- unless they really do and have said so overtly in which case fuck em ....


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## stevepinker (Sep 13, 2006)

Chorlton said:
			
		

> britain (in particular the left) is very anti-american
> 
> this board just accurately reflects this - not everyone on the left in britain is, not everyone on these boards are, but it gives an accurate reflection of british peoples thoughts IMO



Oh thats O.k then .. I'll remember that the next time i hear something racist


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## kyser_soze (Sep 13, 2006)

> It has the most varied landscape due to its size and that was the main impact it made on me - but I know we're talking about the people here.



Well, I veer toward the 'physical environment leads emotional environment' view, and it gave me an understanding of the nature of many Merkin's faith - especially as you head toward the mid-west and are given these panoramic vistas of incredible beauty that go on forever, but there in the knowledge that those lovely fluffy white clouds can touch down and start killing people at any minute - I think if I lived in such an environment my attitude toward religion might be different!

I'd also really like to go back and spend 6 months to a year travelling again, but a combination of a lady who doesn't really want to go to the US to travel coupled with the current shit about security (not to mention money, altho as a sterling holder that's not a big deal at the moment ) and the rest I'm disinclined to go.


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## Chorlton (Sep 13, 2006)

stevepinker said:
			
		

> Oh thats O.k then .. I'll remember that the next time i hear something racist



errr...... 





what?


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## zoltan (Sep 13, 2006)

Neva said:
			
		

> Actually I agree with Dwyer. Urban is very anti-American. A lot of the time it's valid points but I read more ridiculous generalisations and uninformed opinions about the States than I do on any other country or population.



Not Anti 'Merican as such, but maybe anti 'Merican Influence.

Most have no beef with the 300M Mericans - how can we ? but many do feel the influence of its _perceived_ culture and values not just filtering, but gushing throu' and causing problems

being anti Merican *values* isnt the same as being anti 'merican


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## Streathamite (Sep 13, 2006)

been there several times; mostly florida, where me dad had his villa, but also all over the deep south, california, new england and Noi Yoik. I loved it. the people are very open, positive, friendly. They have the tendency of  great power citizens everywhere - they tend to believe their own bullshit. 
very courteous people outside mof NYC and Florida, too.
worst racism i ever saw was in US tho


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## kyser_soze (Sep 13, 2006)

Chorlton said:
			
		

> britain (in particular the left) is very anti-american
> 
> this board just accurately reflects this - not everyone on the left in britain is, not everyone on these boards are, but it gives an accurate reflection of british peoples thoughts IMO



Where do you get this from? Just this week at least one opinion poll showed that while peeps think that currently UK policy is too aligned with the US, most people in this country like the US and Americans; there certainly isn't the level of public or institutional anti-US feeling of France for example outside of the left.

Hell, during the 90s the US was more popular than the EU among Brits!


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## William of Walworth (Sep 13, 2006)

Chorlton said:
			
		

> britain (in particular the left) is very anti-american



Are you on the left yourself? (Genuiunely don't know this, the only time I've ever really tangled with you is during the World Cup   )



> this board just accurately reflects this - not everyone on the left in britain is, not everyone on these boards are, but it gives an accurate reflection of british peoples thoughts IMO



I question how true is this thing about UK/Urban being sweepingly anti-American.

I suppose there's _some_ truth in it, but there's plenty of factors to explain that -- so many Bush-hating AMERICANS are as critical, or even more critical, of current US foreign policy in particular than we are. Good on em.

If the US has a bad/unpopular image in the world,  I'd say don't just blame those reacting -- also blame those arrogant enough to pursue a deeply megalomaniac foreign policy without giving any proper thought to WHY it's so unpopular ...


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## Chorlton (Sep 13, 2006)

kyser_soze said:
			
		

> Where do you get this from?



general perception - i find the people i work and socialise with to be quite anti american - in thinking about it i don't think it is anymore from the left as the right tho


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## billy_bob (Sep 13, 2006)

The whole food/eating out culture weirded me out.  You try to go to a restaurant at a civilised time, say 8pm, and they're about to shut for the night.   And most of the bars we found open past that time were full of people with fresh stitches in their heads who'd been in prison as recently as that morning.  That's in the south west though, I've no doubt it's different in more cosmo-/metro-politan areas.

As for the friendliness thing, I found it superficial. Admittedly that's better than the constant surly rudeness you experience all around you in this country but for example, if you complained or queried something in a shop or restaurant, however politely and reasonably, you were very often met with frank disinterest and unhelpfulness.

Have to say that in Texas I've met an awful lot of people who fulfil every Nuke-riding redneck King of the Hill Dallas cliche about the place.  But those individuals would still only make up a tiny fraction of the overall number of people I've met there.


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## kyser_soze (Sep 13, 2006)

William - as you said in your last post, you rarely venture into P&P where a very different view of the US prevails, to the point where it becomes distasteful to read some people's views because they quite clearly ARE lumping 300 million people together and prejudging them.


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## trashpony (Sep 13, 2006)

Neva said:
			
		

> Actually I agree with Dwyer. Urban is very anti-American. A lot of the time it's valid points but I read more ridiculous generalisations and uninformed opinions about the States than I do on any other country or population.



You're American though aren't you? I'm not condoning it and there are some sweeping generalisatins but tbh a lot less than general conversation down the pub.

Unfortunately for the majority of Brits, the face of the US is Dubya.


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## Chorlton (Sep 13, 2006)

William of Walworth said:
			
		

> Are you on the left yourself?



i don't know - i've never really understood politics - i am an anti-war vegetrian who cycles to work - i think that might mean i hate freedom tho

i take back my statement that i think its more prevalent on the left tho


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## William of Walworth (Sep 13, 2006)

kyser_soze said:
			
		

> Where do you get this from? Just this week at least one opinion poll showed that while peeps think that currently UK policy is too aligned with the US, most people in this country like the US and Americans; there certainly isn't the level of public or institutional anti-US feeling of France for example outside of the left.
> 
> Hell, during the 90s the US was more popular than the EU among Brits!



I saw a frustratingly unsourced factoid in the Guardian the other day which said that polls in Egypt reached 2 conclusions :

1. The US was the country most hated by the greatest proportion of Egyptians
2. The US was the overseas country the greatest proportion of Egyptians wanted to emigrate to. 

I take kyser's point -- in my view, until recently, the EU and other EU countries were much more subject to hostility by far more not very politicised people than the US was.


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## sleaterkinney (Sep 13, 2006)

Neva said:
			
		

> Actually I agree with Dwyer. Urban is very anti-American. A lot of the time it's valid points but I read more ridiculous generalisations and uninformed opinions about the States than I do on any other country or population.


I don't agree, I think it's anti the current administration in a big big way, Americans don't seem to realise how bush's homey-ness is completely the wrong thing we would want to see in a politician.


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## Dirty Martini (Sep 13, 2006)

I've been around California and to NYC twice, loved every minute.

I liked the energy, the overall friendliness (though it's laid on pretty thick in bars and shops), and the surprisingly dry and cynical sense of humour (NYC particularly). I think NYC is much more politically charged than London actually, lots of stuff going on.

Outside the cities in California, there seemed to be a lot of political thinking that could be charitably called deeply conservative, but people are more upfront about it than in Britain.

Can't stand anti-Americanism -- that most Americans are fat, thick and can't place Paris on a map, "typical American stupidity", that sort of thing. Retrograde bullshit. It has as many nutters and thickoes as anywhere else.


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## zoltan (Sep 13, 2006)

I remember talking to a Kosovan KLA informal some time ago ( utter utter cunts by the way, despite the freedom fighter shite we read ) who came out with some anti Merican Islamic rhetioroc/ Jihad/ Allah as if he had been taught it. 30 mins later he was asking if I could help him he could get a visa to Merica to work.


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## William of Walworth (Sep 13, 2006)

kyser_soze said:
			
		

> William - as you said in your last post, you rarely venture into P&P where a very different view of the US prevails, to the point where it becomes distasteful to read some people's views because they quite clearly ARE lumping 300 million people together and prejudging them.



I'd best keep out of there then!

Sounds shite, but I'd like to hear other folks opinions on that ....including from some of the smarter/more analytical lefties ... I'll take your word for it though that there are a fair few intemperate and sweeping comments!

what proportion of those are reactions to Go USA! cretins like mears and (until recently) pbman though -- I don't know how many people like that post in P and P or how prolificly, but I can understand people losing their rag with them


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## trashpony (Sep 13, 2006)

In answer to Lyra's question, I lived in Minnesota for a year and a half when I was young and in LA for a couple of years in my early 20s. I've travelled around the States alot and the only place I found truly frightening in terms of the stereotypical Deliverance types was Washington (the state, not the city).

I did find the racial segregation unpleasant and the enthusiasm for guns and the death penalty peculiar but on the whole I loved living there. I visit New York or LA pretty much every year now. I've got a lot of friends there.


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## lyra_k (Sep 13, 2006)

billy_bob said:
			
		

> The whole food/eating out culture weirded me out.  You try to go to a restaurant at a civilised time, say 8pm, and they're about to shut for the night.   And most of the bars we found open past that time were full of people with fresh stitches in their heads who'd been in prison as recently as that morning.  That's in the south west though, I've no doubt it's different in more cosmo-/metro-politan areas.



I don't recognise that at all, and I live in the south west in the country, nearest town is a small town, Tucson is 70 miles away.   Bars are open until 1 or 2am usually, and restaurants until about 10pm (unless they are more breakfasty-lunchy type places, in which case yeah they might close mid to late afternoon).

Not trying to attack your post there, but had to comment as it's completely contrary to my own experience.


----------



## kyser_soze (Sep 13, 2006)

While not especially liking the gun culture of the US, I had a lot of fun firing off rounds from a few semi- and automatic rifles and pistols when I was in Montana.


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## Shandril19 (Sep 13, 2006)

William of Walworth said:
			
		

> If people are slack in their phrasing and do say overgeneralising stuff, it's surely more effective for you to pull them up without _assuming_ they hate all Americans and everything about the country -- unless they really do and have said so overtly in which case fuck em ....



While I do generally believe that most "anti-American" statements that appear on here are simply the result of lazy writing which allow criticisms/mockeries/insults to unintentionally spread far past their intended recipients, I'm not sure it's fair to put the burden for fighting it solely on us.

There have been threads that I've avoided posting on all together, because the tide of public opinion seemed so far out of wack that it felt deeply antagonistical.    On those threads, I did genuinely feel that any attempt to point out broad generalizations, unfair sweeping statements, etc would have been endlessly derided and set myself up for very negative backlash.

I have not let that color my general opinion of Urban, as I've posted/read here long enough to have a better sense of what this community generally represents and the more normal tone of conversations here.    But I do think perhaps some of you do underestimate the non-specified anti-American tone that can be present at times.


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## Gavin Bl (Sep 13, 2006)

lyra_k said:
			
		

> I don't recognise that at all, and I live in the south west in the country, nearest town is a small town, Tucson is 70 miles away.   Bars are open until 1 or 2am usually, and restaurants until about 10pm (unless they are more breakfasty-lunchy type places, in which case yeah they might close mid to late afternoon).
> 
> Not trying to attack your post there, but had to comment as it's completely contrary to my own experience.



Where do you live lyra, I lived/worked in Phoenix back in 1999? Got some rellies in NY, travelled quite alot too - I really like the US, yes you can find examples of any number of stereotypes, there - but always outweighed by positive experiences - which is true of most countries.

I was struck by how pleasant and open people are generally. I depresses me that people can talk about accepting or celebrating cultural diversity, but when its American culture, they often seem to forget that, and just take a dig.

America and Britain are both great places to visit, despite their stupid govts..


----------



## lyra_k (Sep 13, 2006)

trashpony said:
			
		

> I did find the racial segregation unpleasant



My experience of that is that in large cities, ethnic groups do live much more separately than we're used to in, say, London, but that in small cities and small towns things are much more integrated.

I do wonder though how much of that is just down to the size of the populations involved....because in parts of the UK (and elsewhere in Europe) where there ARE very large minority populations, they also seem to group together.

Or maybe I've misunderstood what you meant by segregation....


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## William of Walworth (Sep 13, 2006)

Shandril -- criticisms of Bush/US foreign policy, etc. should be specified more clearly in those terms I agree.

To what extent do you share those more specified criticisms?

I still question that they make Urban 'anti-American' in the sense that the odd right wing American visitor here tends to assume -- that any critic of Bush is a hater of freedom and bigotted against America and all Americans ...

I appreciate your point is different and more nuanced than that simplistic take on it.


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## lyra_k (Sep 13, 2006)

Gavin Bl said:
			
		

> Where do you live lyra



I live in a tiny place called Palominas - just a blip on the map really, right on the AZ/Mex border.  It's quite different to Phoenix because of the elevation (5,000-ish feet), the climate is much more tolerable.    It's sort of mountainous desert.

I only go to Phoenix once or twice a year and the heat is just...hot.


----------



## trashpony (Sep 13, 2006)

lyra_k said:
			
		

> My experience of that is that in large cities, ethnic groups do live much more separately than we're used to in, say, London, but that in small cities and small towns things are much more integrated.
> 
> I do wonder though how much of that is just down to the size of the populations involved....because in parts of the UK (and elsewhere in Europe) where there ARE very large minority populations, they also seem to group together.
> 
> Or maybe I've misunderstood what you meant by segregation....



No, that's what I meant. Just the difference between LA and London really. Here although there are definitely areas where minority populations congregate, the racial lines are more blurred. 

I lived in a 'black neighbourhood' in LA and people used to slow down when they were driving past me on the street to get a better look at me.


----------



## kyser_soze (Sep 13, 2006)

> I lived in a 'black neighbourhood' in LA and people used to slow down when they were driving past me on the street to get a better look at me.



I remember reading an article in A.N. Magazine years ago about Brits in LA and how there's substantial numbers of Brit expats living in areas of the city that the locals regard as no go areas...


----------



## dirtysanta (Sep 13, 2006)

kyser_soze said:
			
		

> While not especially liking the gun culture of the US, I had a lot of fun firing off rounds from a few semi- and automatic rifles and pistols when I was in Montana.




  I did this. Fantastic day out. When i lived in Miami the guy who lived next door was a gun nut and entered every shooting comp going. Offered to take me to a range. I shot a Browning 9mm, M16 Assault, Shotgun (cant remember which one) and Uzi but my favourite was a Smith & Wesson .357 with a 6 inch barrell.  It was heavy and had such a big recoil that i didnt hit the target for the first 10 rounds !  But it definately got my testosterone levels pumped right up. Its like firing a canon off the end of your arm. 

I dont like the gun culture either but if i lived there and had the opportunity to own one then i think i would


----------



## Neva (Sep 13, 2006)

William of Walworth said:
			
		

> That reaction is dictated by your own politics, surely? I'm not sure what your particular attidude to George Bush is, but you (at least) are CERTAINLY smart enough to distinguish between opposition to Bush/NeoCon Republicans/current US foreign policiy [etc.] and hatred of all Americans.
> 
> So get wiser -- there aren't too many Urban people (IMO) who just unthinkingly hate all Americans or all aspects of America. (Bear in mind I rarely go on P and P though, and almost never on World Affairs).
> 
> If people are slack in their phrasing and do say overgeneralising stuff, it's surely more effective for you to pull them up without _assuming_ they hate all Americans and everything about the country -- unless they really do and have said so overtly in which case fuck em ....



I don't know. When I first joined the boards I used to think it was a reaction to U.S. politics sure but the more time I spend here the more I think it's gone beyond that and it's kind of become ingrained in the boards themselves. I mean a recent thread here was about new federal guidelines designed to help expectant mothers and the whole of the first two pages was just people shouting about how the U.S. was a Nazi state. I read threads on the same subject on two other predominately UK politics boards and neither of them went down that road. The general consensus even early on was that it was a good idea but perhaps misguided and could have potentially risky consequences. Only on Urban was America called the third reich and people felt it was okay to post ridiculous stereotypes like: "Somehow I can't see all those Texan rednecks sitting around with lemonade while their post-menopausal wives neck all the gin..." 

That thread had very little to do with U.S. politics because no-one was reading the actual guidelines themselves. They were all taking their cue of the OP and each other so one poster said it was wrong and another followed up and said it was totalitarianism and then another followed on and said it was fascism and it all just escalated. That was just a recent example but I see threads like that all the time. I'm sure your right and that most people on this board don't hate America or anything like that but I think there's only a tiny minority who are willing to step on and call people on their posts when they do post that kind of nonsense and so the situation goes unchecked. It’s all very depressing.


----------



## billy_bob (Sep 13, 2006)

lyra_k said:
			
		

> I don't recognise that at all, and I live in the south west in the country, nearest town is a small town, Tucson is 70 miles away.   Bars are open until 1 or 2am usually, and restaurants until about 10pm (unless they are more breakfasty-lunchy type places, in which case yeah they might close mid to late afternoon).
> 
> Not trying to attack your post there, but had to comment as it's completely contrary to my own experience.



Mrs_bob and I intending to retire to that part of the world, maybe you can show us where to get a good meal  (that's a few years off...)

I guess I'm generalising on the basis of the experiences I had that were different from what it's like back home - so I'm picking up on things that didn't happen all the time when I was there, but when they happened I noticed them more, if you see what I mean.  Also, I think it may have been some of the counties in Texas with particularly arcane liquor laws that caused the most problem.

I do remember some amazing breakfasts in Tucson diners.


----------



## William of Walworth (Sep 13, 2006)

Gavin Bl said:
			
		

> It depresses me that people can talk about accepting or celebrating cultural diversity, but when its American culture, they often seem to forget that, and just take a dig.



Not justifying this when it does happen -- but there's a reason for it (context/explanation, not justification). Among some people, the _image_ of American culture is pretty unpopular, because such things as films, fast food, to some extent pro-capitalist political ideology, whats perceived as prevailing American attitudes towards other countries/other ideologies, 'cultural imperialism'in general) is seen as almost an extension of American foreign policy ....

Can't say I've all the time been immune from _some_ of these reactions myself ... 

But then I hate American fast food chains .. 




> America and Britain are both great places to visit, despite their stupid govts..



Agree. There should be more focus on Governmment (and capitalism  )


----------



## Neva (Sep 13, 2006)

zoltan69 said:
			
		

> Not Anti 'Merican as such, but maybe anti 'Merican Influence.
> 
> Most have no beef with the 300M Mericans - how can we ? but many do feel the influence of its _perceived_ culture and values not just filtering, but gushing throu' and causing problems
> 
> being anti Merican *values* isnt the same as being anti 'merican



Well if it was just that then it would be okay. But a lot of the time it's more than that.

[edit] I mean do a search of the word redneck in the general forum and see how many people use it all the time to refer to Americans. It's ridiculous. If I was to start calling everyone from the UK a chav I'd have dozens of posters jumping all over me for using not just a generalisation but an offensive one at that (and rightly so). Redneck is just as bad, carries the same kind of racist slurs as chav and not once have I ever seen anyone, ever, pulled up for using it on this board.




			
				sleaterkinney said:
			
		

> I don't agree, I think it's anti the current administration in a big big way, Americans don't seem to realise how bush's homey-ness is completely the wrong thing we would want to see in a politician.



Well I'm not arguing it's anti-Bush because it clearly is and that’s fine. I just think that at times this extends past the administration and onto America as a whole which I would say isn’t fine.


----------



## catrina (Sep 13, 2006)

I'm American but have lived in the UK for 6 years now.  Like anywhere, there's pluses and minuses to both cultures.

I love the can do attitude of Americans, and the more general social mobility there as opposed to the UK.  I miss the people, too, in a way I can't quite put my finger on.  But, whenever I come across an American here, or back at home, I find it instantly easy to strike up a conversation, whereas in the UK, I can go months without speaking to people I don't know already, and am constantly second guessing myself.

I noticed that when I first came here, people were quite frank about their distrust of America and Americans, whereas in the US no one would greet a foreigner in that way.  

But, there is a core of completely utter cluelessness in the US that really grates me and that keeps me away.  I think it's as much to do with the isolated geography as history and culture, and I don't have a solution to fix the problem.  But it's a big one.


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## lyra_k (Sep 13, 2006)

ahhh, Texas.  That explains it.   The panhandle of Texas (we drive through it on our way to mr k's family in Oklahoma once or twice a year) is quite possibly the most desolate place I have ever been.

Regarding guns...well again it's only my perception, but with that caveat in place, I find that people in towns and cities are much less likely to have guns, but that because of the sheer size of the country so many people live a long way from help (for example the time it would take the police to get to you if you called them), that owning a gun is a BIT more understandble.

I mean isn't it sort of understandable that a farmer on a remote farm in Cumbria would have a gun?  There are a LOT more people living like that in the USA than the UK because of the amount of space here.

I've always hated guns...still do really, but we do have a handgun and a shotgun within reasonably easy reach (childproof, but accessible to us), because it's so isolated here that if anything did happen, it would take help an hour to arrive.


----------



## Belushi (Sep 13, 2006)

kyser_soze said:
			
		

> I remember reading an article in A.N. Magazine years ago about Brits in LA and how there's substantial numbers of Brit expats living in areas of the city that the locals regard as no go areas...



My brother and a mate went out to Memphis, Tennessee for the Lewis-Tyson fight a few years ago. They organised accomodation etc themselves and were in a motel in a poorer, black part of town. The whites he met reacted with horror when they discovered where he was staying, assuring him he was risking getting shot but he had a great time, had no problems and made plenty of friends in the local bar who friendly as hell, impressed that they'd travelled so far following Lewis and interested in Wales (a place most of them had never heard of).


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## lyra_k (Sep 13, 2006)

catrina said:
			
		

> I noticed that when I first came here, people were quite frank about their distrust of America and Americans, whereas in the US no one would greet a foreigner in that way.



...unless they were French, or non-white.


----------



## zoltan (Sep 13, 2006)

Neva said:
			
		

> Well if it was just that then it would be okay. But a lot of the time it's more than that.
> 
> [edit] I mean do a search of the word redneck in the general forum and see how many people use it all the time to refer to Americans. It's ridiculous. If I was to start calling everyone from the UK a chav I'd have dozens of posters jumping all over me for using not just a generalisation but an offensive one at that (and rightly so). Redneck is just as bad, carries the same kind of racist slurs as chav and not once have I ever seen anyone, ever, pulled up for using it on this board.




walk around the streets of most UK provincial towns & you would think that the country consists entirely of chavs


----------



## catrina (Sep 13, 2006)

lyra_k said:
			
		

> ...unless they were French, or non-white.



Not true about the non-white part, althogh definitely true about the French!

(although I hear they've reverted back to French Fries now in the House of Commons)


----------



## William of Walworth (Sep 13, 2006)

Neva said:
			
		

> I don't know. When I first joined the boards I used to think it was a reaction to U.S. politics sure but the more time I spend here the more I think it's gone beyond that and it's kind of become ingrained in the boards themselves. I mean a recent thread here was about new federal guidelines designed to help expectant mothers and the whole of the first two pages was just people shouting about how the U.S. was a Nazi state. I read threads on the same subject on two other predominately UK politics boards and neither of them went down that road. The general consensus even early on was that it was a good idea but perhaps misguided and could have potentially risky consequences. Only on Urban was America called the third reich and people felt it was okay to post ridiculous stereotypes like: "Somehow I can't see all those Texan rednecks sitting around with lemonade while their post-menopausal wives neck all the gin..."
> 
> That thread had very little to do with U.S. politics because no-one was reading the actual guidelines themselves. They were all taking their cue of the OP and each other so one poster said it was wrong and another followed up and said it was totalitarianism and then another followed on and said it was fascism and it all just escalated. That was just a recent example but I see threads like that all the time. I'm sure your right and that most people on this board don't hate America or anything like that but I think there's only a tiny minority who are willing to step on and call people on their posts when they do post that kind of nonsense and so the situation goes unchecked. It’s all very depressing.



My only post on that thread (the only one as I recall, anyway) was hostile, but also carefully qualified (despite someone's attempt to distort my reaction).

But I'll let others who were more involved in the thread respond to the above. I'm no fan of Godwins Law busting 'Third Reich/evil Nazis' type stuff because they're so frequently inaccurate and full of dodgy hyperbole, but I suspect you're remembering the worst of the reactions at the expense of the less inflammatory ones, maybe?

Remember that right wing evangelist fundaMENTALism, where it has undue influence over health policy and attitudes to such things as abortion, etc., is pretty damned unpopular for many over here. (I speak generally, because as I say, I wasn't involved in the detail of that thread).

But I'm sure there's plenty of opposition to all that from less religious, more 'liberal' Americans.

Actually, thinking about it, differing prevailing attitudes towards religion between the US and the UK may explain a lot of all the cultural stuff ... 
ETA to qualify : I mean perceived differences as much as actual .. of course there are plenty of Americans who aren't religious, or who really do keep it to themselves. But the minority who don't, is much larger in the US surely. A secular, non-religious Brit (ie most of them  ),  is just going to react with incomprehension towards constant references by American poliicians (for eg) to 'praying', etc.

(was in a bit of a rush with this post just before, so edited for typos etc.)


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## Belushi (Sep 13, 2006)

> Not true about the non-white part, althogh definitely true about the French!



Everybody hates the French, it doesnt count


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## Shandril19 (Sep 13, 2006)

catrina said:
			
		

> Not true about the non-white part, althogh definitely true about the French!




I was going to say that!


----------



## kyser_soze (Sep 13, 2006)

Neva - you're not loosing it or anything, cos I've noticed the same thing as well. There seems to be a feeling that it's acceptable to knock the US in manner and language that were it directed at other countries would be condemned - I didn't see the thread you're talking about, but quite frankly anyone bandying around terms like 'nazi state' and 'big brother' who lives in the UK needs to spend some time in a country where there _are_ serious restrictions on behaviour and that the secret police will come and arrest you for saying/doing certain things.

Not to say that at the moment the US isn't gripped by a kind of post-modern Mcarthyism, but as with Mcarthyism itself the obsession with security etc will pass - and quite soon I reckon - it's starting to impact seriously on a huge range of Merkins activities on a day-to-day basis and Bush and his little gang of NeoCons and Xtians (who are also starting to desert him) are falling from grace at a quite rapid pace.


----------



## trashpony (Sep 13, 2006)

Neva said:
			
		

> I don't know. When I first joined the boards I used to think it was a reaction to U.S. politics sure but the more time I spend here the more I think it's gone beyond that and it's kind of become ingrained in the boards themselves. I mean a recent thread here was about new federal guidelines designed to help expectant mothers and the whole of the first two pages was just people shouting about how the U.S. was a Nazi state. I read threads on the same subject on two other predominately UK politics boards and neither of them went down that road. The general consensus even early on was that it was a good idea but perhaps misguided and could have potentially risky consequences. Only on Urban was America called the third reich and people felt it was okay to post ridiculous stereotypes like: "Somehow I can't see all those Texan rednecks sitting around with lemonade while their post-menopausal wives neck all the gin..." .



As I pointed out at the time, that thread was in response to the article in the OP. Which is what happens here - someone posts an article, people respond to it. If you were so incensed that people weren't commenting on the actual federal guidelines, why didn't you post a link to them and make the point yourself rather than waiting for someone else to do it? The article was sensationalist but you didn't actually correct the allegations it made.


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## keybored (Sep 13, 2006)

Two families moved from Afghanistan to America. When they arrived, the two fathers made a bet -- in a year's time whichever family had become more Americanized would win.
A year later they met. The first man said, "My son is playing baseball, I had McDonald's for breakfast and I'm on my way to pick up a case of Bud, how about you?"
The second man replied, "Fuck you, towel head."


----------



## Neva (Sep 13, 2006)

William of Walworth said:
			
		

> My onmly post on that thread was hostile, but carefully qualified (despite siomeone's attemt to distort my reaction.
> 
> But I'll let others who were motre involed in the thread respond to it. I'm no fan of Godwins Law busting 'Third Reich/evil Nazis' type stuff because they're inaccurate and full of dodgy hyperbole, but I suspect you're remembering the worst of the reactions at the expense of the less inflammatory ones, maybe?



I probably am yeah but I'm pretty sure it wasn't until the third page or so that someone actually turned up and said 'No that's not what's happening' and explained why. I don't think that would have been the case had the guidelines not been American and I sure as hell don't think any other country would have been equated with Nazi Germany even if they had introduced the exact same guidelines. 




			
				William of Walworth said:
			
		

> Remember that right wing evangelist fundaMENTALism, where it has undue influence over health policy and attitudes to such things as abortion, etc., is pretty damned unpopular for many over here. (I speak generally, because as I say, I wasn't involved in the detail of thayt thread).
> 
> But I'm sure there's plenty of opposition to all that from less religious, more 'liberal' Americans.
> 
> Actually, thinking about it, differing prevailing attitudes towards religion between the US and the UK may explain a lot of all the cultural stuff ...



Well yeah I agree. Christian attitude towards abortion is undefendable. (Although Christianity is hardly exclusive to America but I take your point.)


----------



## William of Walworth (Sep 13, 2006)

kyser_soze said:
			
		

> Neva - you're not loosing it or anything, cos I've noticed the same thing as well. There seems to be a feeling that it's acceptable to knock the US in manner and language that were it directed at other countries would be condemned - I didn't see the thread you're talking about, but quite frankly anyone bandying around terms like 'nazi state' and 'big brother' who lives in the UK needs to spend some time in a country where there _are_ serious restrictions on behaviour and that the secret police will come and arrest you for saying/doing certain things.
> 
> Not to say that at the moment the US isn't gripped by a kind of post-modern Mcarthyism, but as with Mcarthyism itself the obsession with security etc will pass - and quite soon I reckon - it's starting to impact seriously on a huge range of Merkins activities on a day-to-day basis and Bush and his little gang of NeoCons and Xtians (who are also starting to desert him) are falling from grace at a quite rapid pace.



This thread is now moving too fast, but you should check the thread Neva is talking about, rather than taking his take on it on trust.


----------



## Neva (Sep 13, 2006)

trashpony said:
			
		

> As I pointed out at the time, that thread was in response to the article in the OP. Which is what happens here - someone posts an article, people respond to it. If you were so incensed that people weren't commenting on the actual federal guidelines, why didn't you post a link to them and make the point yourself rather than waiting for someone else to do it? The article was sensationalist but you didn't actually correct the allegations it made.



Um, because that had already happened by the time I read the thread?


----------



## William of Walworth (Sep 13, 2006)

Neva said:
			
		

> Well yeah I agree. Christian attitude towards abortion is undefendable. (Although Christianity is hardly exclusive to America but I take your point.)



I've edited/qualified my earlier post now, but I'd say, and you'd probably agree, that the more loathesome 'Christian' attitudes towards abortion seem to have more widespread influence in some parts of the US at least. Even than in some Catholic countries in Europe!


----------



## sleaterkinney (Sep 13, 2006)

Neva said:
			
		

> Well I'm not arguing it's anti-Bush because it clearly is and that’s fine. I just think that at times this extends past the administration and onto America as a whole which I would say isn’t fine.


A point would be that America re-elected Bush, despite knowing what he was like, also you get commentators like for example Ann Coulter who are popular in the US, stuff like Fox news which is also popular and just seems abhorrent to us over here(well me at least).


----------



## King Mob (Sep 13, 2006)

Neva said:
			
		

> I don't know. When I first joined the boards I used to think it was a reaction to U.S. politics sure but the more time I spend here the more I think it's gone beyond that and it's kind of become ingrained in the boards themselves. I mean a recent thread here was about new federal guidelines designed to help expectant mothers and the whole of the first two pages was just people shouting about how the U.S. was a Nazi state. I read threads on the same subject on two other predominately UK politics boards and neither of them went down that road. The general consensus even early on was that it was a good idea but perhaps misguided and could have potentially risky consequences. Only on Urban was America called the third reich and people felt it was okay to post ridiculous stereotypes like: "Somehow I can't see all those Texan rednecks sitting around with lemonade while their post-menopausal wives neck all the gin..."
> 
> That thread had very little to do with U.S. politics because no-one was reading the actual guidelines themselves. They were all taking their cue of the OP and each other so one poster said it was wrong and another followed up and said it was totalitarianism and then another followed on and said it was fascism and it all just escalated. That was just a recent example but I see threads like that all the time. I'm sure your right and that most people on this board don't hate America or anything like that but I think there's only a tiny minority who are willing to step on and call people on their posts when they do post that kind of nonsense and so the situation goes unchecked. It’s all very depressing.



That topic was discussed all round the net and like yourself, i saw the same old pattern form-"all Americans are Nazis", "how can they do such a thing" and the classic used on at least three boards, "this is worse than the Taliban".
It's easier for people to stay on a bandwagon than it is to actually deal with the fact that Guardian article was innaccurate and quite misleading. But who lets facts get in the way of a good slagging?

I don't think this board (i've been hanging round these boards in one shape or form for years) are especially anti-American compared to a hell of a lot of UK based forums which are, quite frankly, just plain racist in their blind hatred of Americans.

But there is a real problem with anti-Americanism in the UK, it's got much worse since 9/11 and the Iraq invasion and shows no signs of letting up.


----------



## lyra_k (Sep 13, 2006)

American "Christianity" is utterly bizarre - I was just talking to a friend about this the other day, and it's on the cover of this week's Time magazine.  It is evolving into something that wouldn't even be recognised as Christianity in other Christian countries, and is a perversion of the word. 

Christianity is not used as a broad term (as it should be, in my view) to cover all the different Christian denominations, but rather as a very narrow, evangelical genre, which conveniently forgets about humility poverty and loving thy neighbour, in favour of getting rich, judging people and "accepting Christ as your Saviour" being the only requirement to get into heaven.  It's pretty sick.  People who believe this stuff genuinely don't think that the word Christian should be applied to Catholics, for instance, or those in more liberal churches like the Episcopalians (sp?).


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## N_igma (Sep 13, 2006)

My cousins are from America, never been there but they come here sometimes. While they're not the southern bible bashing redneck types, they do seem very gullabile and naive. The type that would listen to whatever the media tells them. Very sound people though.


----------



## trashpony (Sep 13, 2006)

Neva said:
			
		

> Um, because that had already happened by the time I read the thread?



Sorry - I thought you'd been there earlier.   But my point remains. And if it had been any other country and they were proposing to prosecute women for having a sneaky fag while they were pregnant, I can assure you the invective would have been much the same. I don't think there's any basis for you saying that people wouldn't have used the word Nazi if the country in question had been Australia for example.


----------



## King Mob (Sep 13, 2006)

sleaterkinney said:
			
		

> A point would be that America re-elected Bush, despite knowing what he was like, also you get commentators like for example Ann Coulter who are popular in the US, stuff like Fox news which is also popular and just seems abhorrent to us over here(well me at least).



Or...

A point would be that Britain re-elected Tony Blair despite knowing what he was like, also you get commentators like for example Jeremy Clarkson and stuff like the Daily Mail, etc...


----------



## trashpony (Sep 13, 2006)

King Mob said:
			
		

> Or...
> 
> A point would be that Britain re-elected Tony Blair despite knowing what he was like, also you get commentators like for example Jeremy Clarkson and stuff like the Daily Mail, etc...



At least you can go and get an abortion here without getting a load of grief


----------



## William of Walworth (Sep 13, 2006)

King Mob said:
			
		

> That topic was discussed all round the net and like yourself, i saw the same old pattern form-"all Americans are Nazis", "how can they do such a thing" and the classic used on at least three boards, "this is worse than the Taliban".
> It's easier for people to stay on a bandwagon than it is to actually deal with the fact that Guardian article was innaccurate and quite misleading. But who lets facts get in the way of a good slagging?
> 
> I don't think this board (i've been hanging round these boards in one shape or form for years) are especially anti-American compared to a hell of a lot of UK based forums which are, quite frankly, just plain racist in their blind hatred of Americans.
> ...



What are your own politics?


----------



## sleaterkinney (Sep 13, 2006)

King Mob said:
			
		

> Or...
> 
> A point would be that Britain re-elected Tony Blair despite knowing what he was like, also you get commentators like for example Jeremy Clarkson and stuff like the Daily Mail, etc...


There was no real alternative to blair like there was with bush. Jeremy Clarkson is tounge in cheek, and not calling for us to invade their countries etc, and the mail doesn't make comedy shows about killing lebanese - there is a big gap there.


----------



## lyra_k (Sep 13, 2006)

trashpony said:
			
		

> if it had been any other country and they were proposing to prosecute women for having a sneaky fag while they were pregnant, I can assure you the invective would have been much the same



I don't know - I've seen quite a lot of cultural relativism on the boards at times on subjects like, for example, Sharia law, where America would never get the same kind of "respect their differences" allowances.

(nor should they, I hate cultural relativism in general, but I have seen it on here quite a bit)


----------



## William of Walworth (Sep 13, 2006)

King Mob said:
			
		

> Or...
> 
> A point would be that Britain re-elected Tony Blair despite knowing what he was like, also you get commentators like for example Jeremy Clarkson and stuff like the Daily Mail, etc...




Haven't seen too many Americans being particularly critical of that!!!

(    )


----------



## William of Walworth (Sep 13, 2006)

lyra_k said:
			
		

> I don't know - I've seen quite a lot of cultural relativism on the boards at times on subjects like, for example, Sharia law, where America would never get the same kind of "respect their differences" allowances.
> 
> (nor should they, I hate cultural relativism in general, but I have seen it on here quite a bit)



I haven't, and I disagree really. Not saying there aren't some people stupid enough on Urban to be indulgent towards, even apologist for,  Sharia law on 'cultural relativist' grounds, but how many, really??


----------



## Yuwipi Woman (Sep 13, 2006)

William of Walworth said:
			
		

> Haven't seen too many Americans being particularly critical of that!!!
> 
> (    )



It's your country, you can elect whoever you wish.  I don't have to agree/disagee with your choices.


----------



## lyra_k (Sep 13, 2006)

sleaterkinney said:
			
		

> A point would be that America re-elected Bush, despite knowing what he was like, also you get commentators like for example Ann Coulter who are popular in the US, stuff like Fox news which is also popular and just seems abhorrent to us over here(well me at least).



The Sun is massively popular in the UK, isn't it?

I don't know anyone that watches Fox News, or that regards Ann Coulter as anything more than an unpleasant joke...I don't think that their existence can really be used to prove anything about Americans in general, any more than the existence and popularity of the Sun can be used to prove anything about you personally.

If that makes sense.


----------



## trashpony (Sep 13, 2006)

lyra_k said:
			
		

> I don't know - I've seen quite a lot of cultural relativism on the boards at times on subjects like, for example, Sharia law, where America would never get the same kind of "respect their differences" allowances.
> 
> (nor should they, I hate cultural relativism in general, but I have seen it on here quite a bit)



I suppose it's difficult to say really. I do think the US gets more than its fair share of flack but I guess that's because their politics have a much greater impact on all of us globally than anyone else. I may not like who other countries have elected as their leaders but it really isn't going to impact on my day-to-day world.


----------



## lyra_k (Sep 13, 2006)

William of Walworth said:
			
		

> but how many, really??



more than would make similar allowances for America.  That's all I'm saying, really.


----------



## King Mob (Sep 13, 2006)

sleaterkinney said:
			
		

> There was no real alternative to blair like there was with bush. Jeremy Clarkson is tounge in cheek, and not calling for us to invade their countries etc, and the mail doesn't make comedy shows about killing lebanese - there is a big gap there.




No there isn't. Coulter is a nutjob but she has people take her at her word, so does Clarkson. As for Blair, he still walked in with a large majority when most of the country was still pissed at him for being a lying bastard. People could have voted Howard or Kennedy or Kerry or anyone to get rid of Bush and Blair. They didn't and thats a crying shame.

Ok, a station as partizan as Fox would be impossible with current UK laws but we more than make up for that with our press.


----------



## King Mob (Sep 13, 2006)

William of Walworth said:
			
		

> What are your own politics?



A bit from here and there. Used to be Labour but ditched them after 2001.


----------



## William of Walworth (Sep 13, 2006)

edit


----------



## Neva (Sep 13, 2006)

sleaterkinney said:
			
		

> A point would be that America re-elected Bush, despite knowing what he was like, also you get commentators like for example Ann Coulter who are popular in the US, stuff like Fox news which is also popular and just seems abhorrent to us over here(well me at least).



Can't argue with Bush although it was very close. Anyway UK voted for Blair again and he got in with a bigger winning margin than George!

Ann Coulter is a joke in the States. No-one takes her seriously, she gets ripped apart every time she even opens her mouth. She's like the equivalent to Piers Morgan or a nasty version of Boris Johnson. Fox News is popular but again is also a joke, we know it's shit just like you know the Daily Mail is shit. Even the most politically unaware person doesn't trust Fox News because of how many times the Simpsons ripped on it. Anyway what was the point? That the U.S. has idiots? I know it has idiots.


----------



## Cloo (Sep 13, 2006)

I've never really met the much-maligned middle American types... most I've met have been people considered 'unconventional' in the states, and San Francisco is where I've spent most time in the States. I'm told that it is not a very representative place of America on the whole!

Let's put it this way... I was there before presidential elections some years ago and looking around at the campaign posters around the place anyone would have thought that Nader was going to get the presidency!


----------



## sleaterkinney (Sep 13, 2006)

lyra_k said:
			
		

> I don't know - I've seen quite a lot of cultural relativism on the boards at times on subjects like, for example, Sharia law, where America would never get the same kind of "respect their differences" allowances.


But the thing is that America is a developed western democracy, so we should measure it against our own countries, if you see what I mean.


----------



## lyra_k (Sep 13, 2006)

Neva said:
			
		

> Can't argue with Bush although it was very close. Anyway UK voted for Blair again and he got in with a bigger winning margin than George!
> 
> Ann Coulter is a joke in the States. No-one takes her seriously, she gets ripped apart every time she even opens her mouth. She's like the equivalent to Piers Morgan or a nasty version of Boris Johnson. Fox News is popular but again is also a joke, we know it's shit just like you know the Daily Mail is shit. Even the most politically unaware person doesn't trust Fox News because of how many times the Simpsons ripped on it.



where's that nodding smiley?


----------



## lyra_k (Sep 13, 2006)

sleaterkinney said:
			
		

> But the thing is that America is a developed western democracy, so we should measure it against our own countries, if you see what I mean.



Yes, but it is a "Christian" democracy (and the separation of church and state is something that a huge minority/small majority - depending on who you believe - disagree with), so with the abortion/Sharia example, you might expect some mitigation because of that.

Oh lord I feel as if I've almost tripped into a position of defending anti-abortion zealots, not my intention at all.


----------



## Neva (Sep 13, 2006)

lyra_k said:
			
		

> where's that nodding smiley?



Damn didn't see your post  Sorry for repeating you.


----------



## trashpony (Sep 13, 2006)

lyra_k said:
			
		

> Yes, but it is a "Christian" democracy (and the separation of church and state is something that a huge minority/small majority - depending on who you believe - disagree with), so with the abortion/Sharia example, you might expect some mitigation because of that.
> 
> Oh lord I feel as if I've almost tripped into a position of defending anti-abortion zealots, not my intention at all.


----------



## King Mob (Sep 13, 2006)

sleaterkinney said:
			
		

> But the thing is that America is a developed western democracy, so we should measure it against our own countries, if you see what I mean.



So you mean measure it against the democratic powerhouse which is the UK in the 21st century?


----------



## lyra_k (Sep 13, 2006)

Neva said:
			
		

> Damn didn't see your post  Sorry for repeating you.



naa, you said it better than me anyway.  I'm too busy accidentally patting Xtian nutjobs on the back.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Sep 13, 2006)

King Mob said:
			
		

> So you mean measure it against the democratic powerhouse which is the UK in the 21st century?


Go ahead.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Sep 13, 2006)

.

(stupid point)


----------



## King Mob (Sep 13, 2006)

sleaterkinney said:
			
		

> Go ahead.




The US has had a freedom of information act for decades, we only got one a few years back. The US has a fully elected upper house, we have a mix of inbreds, bishops and wealthy buisnessfolk. The US holds elections at set times so we don't have this cat and mouse nonsense of when a sitting PM will call an election.

The list could go on. Now the US system is by no means perfect but we could learn a hell of a lot from it. As for the 2000 US elections, that was not a failure of their Presidential electoral system (which does need revamping), it was an example of corruption.


----------



## catrina (Sep 13, 2006)

I did read a snippet on CNN about the new Christianity in the US, it seems crazy.


----------



## Streathamite (Sep 13, 2006)

Neva said:
			
		

> I don't know. When I first joined the boards I used to think it was a reaction to U.S. politics sure but the more time I spend here the more I think it's gone beyond that and it's kind of become ingrained in the boards themselves. I mean a recent thread here was about new federal guidelines designed to help expectant mothers and the whole of the first two pages was just people shouting about how the U.S. was a Nazi state. I read threads on the same subject on two other predominately UK politics boards and neither of them went down that road. The general consensus even early on was that it was a good idea but perhaps misguided and could have potentially risky consequences. Only on Urban was America called the third reich and people felt it was okay to post ridiculous stereotypes like: "Somehow I can't see all those Texan rednecks sitting around with lemonade while their post-menopausal wives neck all the gin..."
> 
> That thread had very little to do with U.S. politics because no-one was reading the actual guidelines themselves. They were all taking their cue of the OP and each other so one poster said it was wrong and another followed up and said it was totalitarianism and then another followed on and said it was fascism and it all just escalated. That was just a recent example but I see threads like that all the time. I'm sure your right and that most people on this board don't hate America or anything like that but I think there's only a tiny minority who are willing to step on and call people on their posts when they do post that kind of nonsense and so the situation goes unchecked. It’s all very depressing.


several points;
1) you're doing here something very much like what you say others are doing; tarring all with the same brush.
2) the more reasonable posters in world P&P - myself included, i'd hope - are careful to draw distinctions between the US State, and the US nation i.e. the people. whilst I have made qualified generalisations - the worrying lavck of knowledge of other nations on the part of many americans, for one - my gripe is with the State, USG, and what it does to parts of the rest of the world. This is true of most world P&p regulars, and after all, that is the most pertinent forum.   
I don't think you've noticed this.
2) the price of superpowerdom is that the only role you get to play, by and large, is that of baddie. my advice - get over it.
3) the US image HAS taken a real battering since 9/11, mainly due to your awful Prez
4) we got mears, pbman, tribal, even JC2 from your northern neighbour can be a real pain. we take as we find.
5) is it my imagination, or are you a sep who likes PROPER football?


----------



## Belushi (Sep 13, 2006)

> 5) is it my imagination, or are you a sep who likes PROPER football?


----------



## Streathamite (Sep 13, 2006)

touche!  
trust me to forget about _that_ version


----------



## Neva (Sep 13, 2006)

Red Jezza said:
			
		

> several points;
> 1) you're doing here something very much like what you say others are doing; tarring all with the same brush.
> 2) the more reasonable posters in world P&P - myself included, i'd hope - are careful to draw distinctions between the US State, and the US nation i.e. the people. whilst I have made qualified generalisations - the worrying lavck of knowledge of other nations on the part of many americans, for one - my gripe is with the State, USG, and what it does to parts of the rest of the world. This is true of most world P&p regulars, and after all, that is the most pertinent forum.
> I don't think you've noticed this.
> ...



1. I'm trying not to. I said in the post you quoted that most posters probably don't think this way. 
2. I was talking about general. That's why I used a thread from general as an example. I've never read p and p and don't even know what that stands out for. Politics and something I guess. 
3. (You used 2. twice.) Meh. I don't mind when the U.S. is considered a 'baddie' for valid reasons, that is the price of being a superpower your right. It's just the invalid ones which kind of grate. 
4. Yeah agree. He is truly terrible. 
5. Okay. 
6. What's a sep?


----------



## editor (Sep 13, 2006)

Neva said:
			
		

> Urban is very anti-American.


Eh? There's over a thousand lovingly taken pictures of (mainly) NYC, Chicago and LA on the site, plus features on NYC bars and cafes, so that might suggest there's some fondness for the place, no?


----------



## Neva (Sep 13, 2006)

editor said:
			
		

> Eh? There's over a thousand lovingly taken pictures of (mainly) NYC, Chicago and LA on the site, plus features on NYC bars and cafes, so that might suggest there's some fondness for the place, no?



I''ve never read the site itself I'm afraid I was just talking about the boards and the general forum really. Can you link me to the Chicago pics though please?


----------



## editor (Sep 13, 2006)

Talking of which, I've just finished this:
Nation's Parade, 5th Ave, NYC, 2005
Nation's Parade, 5th Ave, NYC, 2005 (pt 2)

And Chicago pics: http://www.urban75.org/photos/chicago/index.html


----------



## Neva (Sep 13, 2006)

Thanks for that. Looking through them now.

"Chicago is unquestionably one of my favourite cities in the world - where else can you get such a mix of beautiful architecture, harsh winters, frozen lakes and mysterious thick fogs that turn the place into a Batman set!"

Damn right


----------



## Streathamite (Sep 13, 2006)

Neva said:
			
		

> 1. I'm trying not to. I said in the post you quoted that most posters probably don't think this way.


tbf, mostly you've succeeded, but I think some of your posts here are a tad shot-from-the-hip, without considering nuance, context or causality.


> 2. I was talking about general. That's why I used a thread from general as an example. I've never read p and p and don't even know what that stands out for. Politics and something I guess.


There's no way round this; this is an implicitly, fundamentally political boards, and is *politics and protest* forums are a key USP (penny dropped now? ). Therefore, considering attitudes to america on U75 without costing the P&P boards into the equation is like assessing a car with no reference made to its' engine.
also, america the State is a 100% political concept, especially so when the actions of that State in the international arena have a greater effect on a greater number of people, for good and ill (mostly ill in fact, which is the nub), than any other nation in history. And it is in fact those actions of the US State which have made the US - and therefore, inwevitably in some minds, its' people, all it's people, very, very unopopular on a global level. 
In other words, you've just discussed football as if the ball weren't there!
(oh alright, belushi, the _bean_ - zat better?  ) 



> 3. (You used 2. twice.) Meh. I don't mind when the U.S. is considered a 'baddie' for valid reasons, that is the price of being a superpower your right. It's just the invalid ones which kind of grate.


which would be....?



> 6. What's a sep?


cockney rhyming slang, geezer. sep = septic tank = yank.


----------



## editor (Sep 13, 2006)

I'm going to move this thread into the NY/USA forum to stop it disappearing off the horizon in general.


----------



## Mr Retro (Sep 14, 2006)

I haven't read the full thread but I'm just back from a driving holiday around California. 

The main thing that struck me is how unfailingly and genuinely polite and friendly the people were. 

The service in pubs, shops and restaurants in x100 better than it is in the UK.

There may a future chance of me or the wife getting the opportunity to move there with our jobs and if it comes up for either of us we'll snatch at the chance.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Sep 15, 2006)

I got called nigger once, years ago in Las Vegas. Guys in a passing car.

One night, while travelling in the desert, we found ourselves in a small town, late at night, with young kids and no accomodations that weren't taken. An american at a grocery store where we stopped for directions offered to put us up for the night.

An american works with me, just down the hall. She was part of the student movement in NYC in the sixties and seventies.

My cousin and her family lived in Florida for a year, last year. Her kid made a good friend, and the two of them travelled in Europe together this summer.

I went to a conference once in Boston, at the time of the marathon. I went for a run with some of the entrants, through Cambridge, around the River Charles.

Travelling in Kentucky, I saw confederate flags flying over farmhouses.

Also in Kentucky, I went into a country store where the owner, a black woman, was having a laugh with a bunch of shirtless good ol boys who'd arrived in one of those trucks with oversize tires.

In Indiana, I talked to this guy about his car; he was there for a car show. We had trouble understanding one another's accents.

I went to a party back where I grew up; the house belonged to an american. Apparently, he wanted to shoot me for being there.

A friend of mine used to go out with a girl from Iowa; they were living in Marin County. I spent the summer there, with a bunch of girls from Iowa.

I got a speeding ticket in Montana. We had to pay $80 on the spot. Then my daughter wanted her picture taken with a real live state trooper. He was pretty friendly about it.

A rough looking beggar in Seattle asked me for one of the beer from the six pack I'd just bought. I said: 'sorry, I really need all of them myself.' He laughed, and left.

On a flight back home out of Las Vegas, some canadians were late, and jumped a gate or something (this was pre 911)  They got on the plane, followed by a big posse of cops, really excited. It took a lot of talking by the cabin crew, who mostly were French Canadian, to stop the cops from hauling the couple off and arresting them.

We used to go down to Blaine, back when there was a huge difference in gas prices there vs here. We'd fill up, hang around. The woman at the gas station would give the kids these extra big ice cream cones.

A woman in Home Depot in Indianapolis made a big fuss when she saw our driver's licence. She'd never been more than fifty miles outside of Indianapolis.

A couple of my profs at undergrad uni were US draft dodgers. Major left wing hippies.


----------



## inflatable jesus (Sep 17, 2006)

I moved from Scotland to New York a little over a year ago now. About five years ago I lived in North Carolina for a few months on a student exchange visa. On the whole I like America. I like New York in particular.

Some of the British ideas about America are a little silly. I've never seen a gun except when strapped to policeman's belt and it never crosses my mind to worry about being shot. Americans are not stupid, or certainly not any more so than people anywhere else.

People definitely look at politics differently here. In Scotland practically everyone I knew had broadly left-wing ideas and I found people tended to have very little respect or admiration for those in positions of authority. It's still odd to me to meet people that will defend things like the US stance on Cuba or will think the Chavez is a threat to America in a general sense.

 I meet people my age that say they're 'social libertarians' but when it comes to economics or foriegn policy they will fall right into line with Bush. Like one guy I talked to thought the prostitution should be legal, but that prostitutes should be prevented from forming unions because unions are bad. I understand it's my own prejudices at work, but it's incomprehensible to me that somebody that grew up in same era as I did could really believe in things like that cutting welfare is a good thing or that criticising the war effort was bad for America.

The religion thing is definitely there too. I know of very few people my own age in Scotland with any interest in religion, but here I meet plenty. I met a sixteen year old girl once in Union Square that told me she didn't believe in Evolution. Once again, that's incomprehensible to me.

When the subject comes up I have to watch what I say sometimes, but that goes both ways and nobody seems to openly have a problem with my atheism. The way people look at religion is a bit different too. In Scotland I remember being told by my parents that Jesus died on the cross for my sins so the least I could do was go to Chapel on a Sunday and listen to the boring mass. But here, the Christian religion is so much more personalised. People make their religion into a grand narrative that places themselves at the centre. It seems like they rather like the idea of being the centre of a grand cosmic struggle and being open to God's personal revelations to them.

I think in a general sense both the politics and the religion thing tie in to the American sense of self. People here believe in America and what it stands for. They believe that they are special and that special things will happen to them. Sometimes that's a little refreshing and sometimes it seems like chauvanism. 

Sometimes I wonder if the political situation and the average person's thoughts on it differ much from what the average British person thought at the height of the British Empire. Sometimes I kind of get John Lennon's comments when he moved here that America is the new Roman Empire and the New York is Rome itself.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Sep 17, 2006)

A friend of mine moved to Richmond Virginia a few years ago; he was the sound man for a band.

One comment he made was that from the grubbiest hippie to the wealthiest yuppie, no matter what their views on other things, they all loved America.


----------



## D (Sep 17, 2006)

kyser_soze said:
			
		

> Californians (who I'm convinced are a different species of human being) who manage to combine other-worldliness with a biting cynicism that would make a Frenchman look optimistic.



What a fantastic description!


----------



## editor (Sep 17, 2006)

inflatable jesus said:
			
		

> I moved from Scotland to New York a little over a year ago now. About five years ago I lived in North Carolina for a few months on a student exchange visa. On the whole I like America. I like New York in particular.


I'll never forget the deafening silence that followed my sentence, "yeah, but surely you can understand why America was seen as a legitimate target by some on 9/11..." - and that was on a table full of alternative types.

American patriotism is weird too. Flags everywhere. And as you said, we're worlds apart when it comes to 'respecting authority.'

But I love NYC. With luck, I'll be over there soon and hopefully doing an Offline night!


----------



## catrina (Sep 17, 2006)

editor said:
			
		

> I'll never forget the deafening silence that followed my sentence, "yeah, but surely you can understand why America was seen as a legitimate target by some on 9/11..." - and that was on a table full of alternative types.
> !



Well it's obviously a lot easier for you to say that since you're not American.  Would you say that about the UK on 7/7?  Would you say that if someone dear to you had been killed or seriously dismembered on 7/7?

I don't defend Bush's policies, but flying planes into civilians is not a 'legitimate target.'  That's disgusting.


----------



## catrina (Sep 17, 2006)

inflatable jesus said:
			
		

> I meet people my age that say they're 'social libertarians' but when it comes to economics or foriegn policy they will fall right into line with Bush. Like one guy I talked to thought the prostitution should be legal, but that prostitutes should be prevented from forming unions because unions are bad. I understand it's my own prejudices at work, but it's incomprehensible to me that somebody that grew up in same era as I did could really believe in things like that cutting welfare is a good thing or that criticising the war effort was bad for America.



But that's the *definition* of the civil libertarian party in America - socially liberal but economically conservative.


----------



## editor (Sep 17, 2006)

catrina said:
			
		

> I don't defend Bush's policies, but flying planes into civilians is not a 'legitimate target.'  That's disgusting.


You're totally missing the point. I wasn't endorsing what happened, but commenting that I could understand the reasons _why_ it happened and why they chose a high profile target on American soil.

Can't you?






			
				catrina said:
			
		

> Would you say that if someone dear to you had been killed or seriously dismembered on 7/7?


Not sure if I see the relevance here. The people I was talking to you hadn't had anyone dear to them" killed or seriously dismembered" in 9/11, so why bring it up?


----------



## catrina (Sep 17, 2006)

I did know someone on one of the planes.  I don't see how on earth she was a legitimate target.  I'm sure her 6 month old daughter she left behind didn't either.  

Target, yes.  But legitimate?  Never.


----------



## inflatable jesus (Sep 17, 2006)

catrina said:
			
		

> But that's the *definition* of the civil libertarian party in America - socially liberal but economically conservative.



Yeah, so I've been gathering. However in the UK I've only ever heard the term 'libertarian' being used in left-wing circles.

It's not even really a term in popular usage at all in the UK. It seems to me like an attempt to apply the basic neoliberal principles (with it's inherent distrust of goverment) to social issues. I think people in the UK and elsewhere are just generally less enthusiastic about neoliberal principles so these sorts of ideas don't really take off.


----------



## inflatable jesus (Sep 17, 2006)

editor said:
			
		

> I'll never forget the deafening silence that followed my sentence, "yeah, but surely you can understand why America was seen as a legitimate target by some on 9/11..." - and that was on a table full of alternative types.
> 
> American patriotism is weird too. Flags everywhere. And as you said, we're worlds apart when it comes to 'respecting authority.'
> 
> But I love NYC. With luck, I'll be over there soon and hopefully doing an Offline night!



The flags took me a while to get used to too. Now I don't really notice them.

I'll hopefully make it to the next New York Offline so I hope you manage to make the trip.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Sep 17, 2006)

editor said:
			
		

> I'll never forget the deafening silence that followed my sentence, "yeah, but surely you can understand why America was seen as a legitimate target by some on 9/11..." - and that was on a table full of alternative types.
> 
> American patriotism is weird too. Flags everywhere. And as you said, we're worlds apart when it comes to 'respecting authority.'



I agree with that. I think the almost slavish adherence to authority you find in the UK comes from its roots as a class-bound monarchy, while the anti authoritarian attitude of the US comes from its roots in rebellion and revolution.

I think Canada falls somewhere in between.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Sep 17, 2006)

editor said:
			
		

> You're totally missing the point. I wasn't endorsing what happened, but commenting that I could understand the reasons _why_ it happened and why they chose a high profile target on American soil.



Maybe, but saying that in the US, to americans, is like saying 'well, you can kind of understand why they shot him', to a man's relatives at the funeral.

It might be true, but it's an awkward thing to say.


----------



## editor (Sep 17, 2006)

Johnny Canuck2 said:
			
		

> Maybe, but saying that in the US, to americans, is like saying 'well, you can kind of understand why they shot him', to a man's relatives at the funeral.


But it wasn't said 'at the funeral'.

It was over _four years_ after the event.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Sep 17, 2006)

editor said:
			
		

> But it wasn't said 'at the funeral'.
> 
> It was over _four years_ after the event.



It was four years after the most traumatic event in that nation in the past fifty years, if not more.

Think about it; there was debate about releasing or even making movies like Flight 93. That's a good indicator of where the public's mind is at on this issue.

Is it possible that you knew the effect your words would have, and you uttered them just to be confrontational?


----------



## Yossarian (Sep 18, 2006)

It doesn’t sound very confrontational to me – is it a taboo in the US to discuss why al-Qaeda chose to attack America?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Sep 18, 2006)

Yossarian said:
			
		

> It doesn’t sound very confrontational to me – is it a taboo in the US to discuss why al-Qaeda chose to attack America?



No, but don't be surprised if you're greeted by silence [at least], if you go into an american bar and say in a loud voice, "Well, you _were _sort of asking for it, you know what I mean?"

It's pretty much the same thing.


----------



## Yossarian (Sep 18, 2006)

I don’t think it’s the same thing at all.  There can’t be many people in this country who don’t recognise that the July 7th bombers were motivated by the British government’s policy in Iraq and Afghanistan – how does that equate into thinking people were asking for it?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Sep 18, 2006)

I can understand fully why the table went silent when the ed used the words he did. Most anyone over here would understand.

He was even in NYC when he said it.

Just another cultural gap, I suppose.


----------



## Gavin Bl (Sep 18, 2006)

Johnny Canuck2 said:
			
		

> I agree with that. I think the almost slavish adherence to authority you find in the UK comes from its roots as a class-bound monarchy, while the anti authoritarian attitude of the US comes from its roots in rebellion and revolution.
> 
> I think Canada falls somewhere in between.



indeed, an elected head of state, judges, police chiefs - I'd rather be a citizen than a subject any day. 

And at least American patriots can be relied upon to wave flags, as opposed to smash up assorted world cities for something as trivial as football.


----------



## rhys gethin (Sep 18, 2006)

Johnny Canuck2 said:
			
		

> No, but don't be surprised if you're greeted by silence [at least], if you go into an american bar and say in a loud voice, "Well, you _were _sort of asking for it, you know what I mean?"
> 
> It's pretty much the same thing.



It's not pretty much the same thing at all - in a bar people are tanked up and aggressive, in general not so.   It seems to me that Americans are very pleasant but deeply brainwashed when it comes to 'patriotism' (i.e. 'rule by the rich').   Remember McCarthy?


----------



## Yuwipi Woman (Sep 18, 2006)

editor said:
			
		

> I'll never forget the deafening silence that followed my sentence, "yeah, but surely you can understand why America was seen as a legitimate target by some on 9/11..." - and that was on a table full of alternative types.



I think the issue comes in several parts:

* I would disagree with the word "legitimate".  Civilians are never legitimate targets.  I don't care if it is AlQueda or the US military thats targeting them.

* A foreigner will have a more difficult time expressing that sentiment, especially a british one.  Brits are stereotyped as a bit arrogant here.

* What we say to one another in private may not be what we project in public with a virtual stranger.  We may have said as much within our own private circle, but wouldn't say it in a larger public venue that includes a foreigner.


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## catrina (Sep 18, 2006)

Yuwipi Woman said:
			
		

> I think the issue comes in several parts:
> 
> * I would disagree with the word "legitimate".  Civilians are never legitimate targets.  I don't care if it is AlQueda or the US military thats targeting them.
> 
> ...



Exactly.


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## editor (Sep 18, 2006)

Yuwipi Woman said:
			
		

> * I would disagree with the word "legitimate".  Civilians are never legitimate targets.


Err, I wasn't saying that. Perhaps you should reread my comments: I said that the America was _seen _as a "legitimate target" *by some* on 9/11, i.e. the terrorists. Not me.

That is simply stating _a fact_.






			
				Yuwipi Woman said:
			
		

> A foreigner will have a more difficult time expressing that sentiment, especially a british one.  Brits are stereotyped as a bit arrogant here.


Only by stupid,  ignorant twats.

I've lived and worked in New York and never came across that. But then maybe I was lucky enough to hang out with intelligent Americans who don't rely on such crass stereotypes.


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## editor (Sep 18, 2006)

Johnny Canuck2 said:
			
		

> No, but don't be surprised if you're greeted by silence [at least], if you go into an american bar and say in a loud voice, "Well, you _were _sort of asking for it, you know what I mean?"


Err, I didn't say it in a loud voice neither did I  say that they were "sort of asking for it", so why try and present such a cheap, crass misrepresentation?


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## Yuwipi Woman (Sep 18, 2006)

I wasn't discussing the rightness or wrongness of your statement.  Merely, trying to explain _why_ you received the reaction you did.


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## Yuwipi Woman (Sep 18, 2006)

editor said:
			
		

> That is simply stating _a fact_.Only by stupid,  ignorant twats.
> 
> I've lived and worked in New York and never came across that. But then maybe I was lucky enough to hang out with intelligent Americans who don't rely on such crass stereotypes.



It has more to do with not liking outsiders telling us what to do.  Midwesterners have the same chip on their shoulder about New Yorkers.  Southerners don't like Northerners telling them what to do, etc..  You forget the independent streak that runs throughout the country.


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## editor (Sep 18, 2006)

Yuwipi Woman said:
			
		

> I wasn't discussing the rightness or wrongness of your statement.  Merely, trying to explain _why_ you received the reaction you did.


But you're misrepresenting what I said.
I didn't suggest - even for a nano-second - that I thought civilians were 'legitimate targets,' so I've no idea why you brought it up.

I was hoping for a discussion about America's antics abroad that led to _some people _viewing American citizens as legitimate targets for their murderous campaigns.

I had no problem with people discussing the connection of Blair's foreign policy with the events of 7/7 straight after the event, so I fail to see why anyone should be deeply offended by someone pursuing a similar discussion years after 9/11.

Perhaps they just prefer to keep their head in the sand....


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## Yuwipi Woman (Sep 18, 2006)

editor said:
			
		

> But you're misrepresenting what I said.
> I didn't suggest - even for a nano-second - that I thought civilians were 'legitimate targets,' so I've no idea why you brought it up.
> 
> I was hoping for a discussion about America's antics abroad that led to _some people _viewing American citizens as legitimate targets for their murderous campaigns.



I'm not saying that _you _thought civilians were legitimate targets.  I'm disagreeing with the thought (_not your own_) that civilians are _ever _a legitimate target.  I'm not attacking you.  




> I had no problem with people discussing the connection of Blair's foreign policy with the events of 7/7 straight after the event, so I fail to see why anyone should be deeply offended by someone pursuing a similar discussion years after 9/11.
> 
> Perhaps they just prefer to keep their head in the sand....



I think you're forgetting that while we speak the same language, we don't share the same culture.


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## catrina (Sep 18, 2006)

Legitimate is a very loaded word to use in that context if you're actually disagreeing with that point of view.


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## editor (Sep 18, 2006)

Yuwipi Woman said:
			
		

> I think you're forgetting that while we speak the same language, we don't share the same culture.


Really?!!! I would never have guessed!

Thank you for reminding me.


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## editor (Sep 18, 2006)

catrina said:
			
		

> Legitimate is a very loaded word to use in that context if you're actually disagreeing with that point of view.


Not if you knew the context of the conversation leading up to my comment and the people I was talking to, but - hey! - feel free to cluelessly 'interpret' things in a way that makes me look as insensitive and as culturally ill-informed as possible!


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## catrina (Sep 18, 2006)

Well, you didn't provide a context.  How else was I supposed to interpret it?  I'm clearly not the only one who's interpreted it that way.

I can see that that's not what you meant now, but that wasn't so obvious from your initial post.  It's a very sore subject and is likely to be for a long time in the US.  Four years is nothing in terms of getting over it, especially in New York.


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## Yuwipi Woman (Sep 18, 2006)

editor said:
			
		

> Really?!!! I would never have guessed!
> 
> Thank you for reminding me.



I'm just trying to explain it to you.  No need to be unnecessarility confrontational.  I'll try one more time.

Think of the US as a big, loud, raunchy, disfunctional family.  No family likes having its dirty laundry aired by someone outside the family.  The fact that uncle fred beats his kids is something that might be spoken of in the family, but would be denied when asked about it by socialworkers.

I actually had the conversation you were wanting to have with two conservatives while waiting to get my oil changed.  Everyone there, very quietly agreed that there were injustices going on in the name of cheap oil.  If you had been in the room, unless you could muster a decent accent, I doubt if we would have had that conversation.


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## editor (Sep 18, 2006)

Yuwipi Woman said:
			
		

> Think of the US as a big, loud, raunchy, disfunctional family.  No family likes having its dirty laundry aired by someone outside the family.  The fact that uncle fred beats his kids is something that might be spoken of in the family, but would be denied when asked about it by socialworkers.


I'm not being funny, but have you been to New York much, because I really didn't find much there to match your near-xenophobic vision of America as "one big disfunctional family" with a built in attitude problem whenever an "arrogant" Brit or a "foreigner " pipes up with anything critical about the "family."

I had no problem finding a willing audience when I was explaining why a notable chunk of the UK hates Bush and loathes America's rampant capitalism, wastefulness, all-pollutuing ways and foreign policy. It was only when any kind of analysis to the build up of 9/11 was mentioned that things went quiet.

And to repeat, I've never, ever had any New Yorker call me 'arrogant.'
"Hyperactive, over-enthusiastic Welsh drunk who should pout his camera down and get the mini-pints in" perhaps, but never "arrogant Brit."


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## Yuwipi Woman (Sep 18, 2006)

<sigh>

Who said anything about Xenophobia?  We love people from other countries, we don't necessarily say everything we think (contrary to general perception).  It feels improper .... like we're being disloyal to the people who died to say it out loud.  It feels oddly personal to be discussing it.  I know it isn't logical, but that is the way it feels.

Never mind.  Maybe I'm not explaining it right.


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## Gavin Bl (Sep 19, 2006)

Yuwipi Woman said:
			
		

> Never mind.  Maybe I'm not explaining it right.



It sounded OK to me...


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## zion (Sep 21, 2006)

Well, a good example would be (I still get furious about this) the Guardian's decision before the 2004 election to print the names and addresses of swing voters in Ohio and invite its readers to write to them about how they should vote.

This being the Guardian, of course, there weren't many people writing to swing voters begging them to vote for Bush.

The entirely, 100% predictable reaction, that anyone with a first-grade understanding of American politics would be able to foresee, was that Ohio swing voters told the writers to butt out of their election, and that the widespread press coverage in Ohio of this effort helped to swing people against Kerry.

As Yuwipi says, that's not xenophobia. That's a stupid intervention by a liberal paper that sold a lot of Guardians but did not help liberals' overall aims.


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Sep 21, 2006)

editor said:
			
		

> Err, I didn't say it in a loud voice neither did I  say that they were "sort of asking for it", so why try and present such a cheap, crass misrepresentation?



Because my words are a paraphrase of yours.

If the US was a legitimate target, then there are legitimate reasons for attacking it. If they are a legitimate target, then you can say, in the vernacular, that the US was 'asking for it'.


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Sep 21, 2006)

editor said:
			
		

> I'm not being funny, but have you been to New York much, because I really didn't find much there to match your near-xenophobic vision of America as "one big disfunctional family" with a built in attitude problem whenever an "arrogant" Brit or a "foreigner " pipes up with anything critical about the "family."



I've never been to New York, but I've been to Chicago, Los Angeles, SF, Minneapolis, Las Vegas, Phoenix, Denver, Salt Lake City, etc., and my read on this corresponds with that of Yuwipi Woman.


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## Yuwipi Woman (Sep 21, 2006)

zion said:
			
		

> Well, a good example would be (I still get furious about this) the Guardian's decision before the 2004 election to print the names and addresses of swing voters in Ohio and invite its readers to write to them about how they should vote.
> 
> This being the Guardian, of course, there weren't many people writing to swing voters begging them to vote for Bush.
> 
> The entirely, 100% predictable reaction, that anyone with a first-grade understanding of American politics would be able to foresee, was that Ohio swing voters told the writers to butt out of their election, and that the widespread press coverage in Ohio of this effort helped to swing people against Kerry.



Thanks for the example.  On the flip side, I wouldnt expect anyone there to care about my opinion on fox hunting.  I wouldn't consider it xenophobia if someone told me it was the internal business of the UK.


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## Yuwipi Woman (Sep 21, 2006)

Johnny Canuck2 said:
			
		

> I've never been to New York, but I've been to Chicago, Los Angeles, SF, Minneapolis, Las Vegas, Phoenix, Denver, Salt Lake City, etc., and my read on this corresponds with that of Yuwipi Woman.



I haven't made it there either.  I tried earlier this year, but it was cancelled at the last minute.  I have, however, been to Chicago, San Diego, Minneapolis, Phoenix, Tucson, Denver, Nashville, Houston, Omaha, Kansas City (lived there), St. Louis, etc.


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Sep 22, 2006)

Johnny Canuck2 said:
			
		

> I've never been to New York, but I've been to Chicago, Los Angeles, SF, Minneapolis, Las Vegas, Phoenix, Denver, Salt Lake City, etc., and my read on this corresponds with that of Yuwipi Woman.





...not to mention, Kansas City, St. Louis, Lincoln, Nebraska, Louisville, Indianapolis, Boise, Great Falls, Bismark, Boston, Madison, Milwaukee,.....


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Sep 22, 2006)

...Gary Indiana.....


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## spring-peeper (Sep 22, 2006)

Miami, Washinton DC, Boston, Atlanta, Key West and many small towns throughout every state in the eastern us - I have to agree with Yuwipi Woman, as well.


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## Gavin Bl (Sep 22, 2006)

zion said:
			
		

> Well, a good example would be (I still get furious about this) the Guardian's decision before the 2004 election to print the names and addresses of swing voters in Ohio and invite its readers to write to them about how they should vote.
> 
> This being the Guardian, of course, there weren't many people writing to swing voters begging them to vote for Bush.
> 
> ...



God, I'd forgotten about that, it makes me wince, just to think of it now.


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## bouncer_the_dog (Sep 22, 2006)

Imagine if a load of Bushbots started writing to you here and asking you to vote for a particular person? I cannot think of anything more irritating and infuriating! (actually I can, but this is up there).

re: Editors 9/11 comments. I think its accepotable to say things like you can understand why certain parts of the world were happy that 9/11 took place. But I think the essential caveat the people there were looking for was _'becuase they are crazy sickos'_. 

I am not anti american, in fact I love it there, I would love to live there! I hate its stupid foriegn policy and social injustices and terrible administration though. But I still think the good outwieghs the bad. I am actually finding it harder and harder to have any sympathy for the muslims of the world these days. I feel like im on the verge of turning into a crazy republican-type!


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## William of Walworth (Oct 2, 2006)

Gavin Bl said:
			
		

> God, I'd forgotten about that, it makes me wince, just to think of it now.



Yes, same here, because of the stupid -- and more to the pont, _completely obvious_ -- counterproductivity of it. Don't know how much negative effect the Guardian initiative had in Ohio staying Bush state, compared to other 'cultural'/'values' factors, but it can't have helped.

To be fair, which I'm sure the instinctive Guardian bashers will never acknowledge or remember, there was a big mea culpa after the election in a leader column, in which the editor apologised for the big error of judgement in doing something so likely in hindsight to have the opposite effect to what was intended (or some wording like that). That should have been predicted before it even got printed though ... and Gary Younge was always opposed to it, said so.

About as bad as Bushbot NeCons coming onto forums like this and haranguing 'liberals' for being so 'anti American' ...


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## William of Walworth (Oct 2, 2006)

bouncer_the_dog said:
			
		

> Imagine if a load of Bushbots started writing to you here and asking you to vote for a particular person? I cannot think of anything more irritating and infuriating! (actually I can, but this is up there).



They don't do that with elections especially, but a few do come on here at times to rant about politics/world affairs generally, and can be quite arrogant and aggressive about things.


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## zion (Oct 2, 2006)

It really drove me up the wall! - partly because I knew how important it was for Kerry to win Ohio!

- I think than anyone commenting on another country's politics has to be cautious. There's a lot that doesn't filter through over here about British politics, and vice versa, and people don't like to be lectured about what they feel is their area of expertise.

On the other hand, it's healthy for any country to be open to well-informed criticism from foreigners. A stranger can show you things about yourself that a friend would never see.


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## editor (Oct 2, 2006)

Johnny Canuck2 said:
			
		

> I've never been to New York.....


Hey, it's only the biggest city in the US!


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## editor (Oct 2, 2006)

Yuwipi Woman said:
			
		

> I haven't made it there either.


Then maybe you should to see if it matches what you've said about the rest of the US?


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## catrina (Oct 2, 2006)

William of Walworth said:
			
		

> They don't do that with elections especially, but a few do come on here at times to rant about politics/world affairs generally, and can be quite arrogant and aggressive about things.



Yes, but this is a public forum for discussion, not a personal home address.

That really pissed me off, and I was all for Bush not winning at whatever cost as the next person, but who the hell did they think they are?  That's a child's excuse that they didn't know what kind of effect that would have.  Where did they get their addresses from to begin with?

Most of the people in Ohio who were voting for Bush were doing so not because of his right wing Christian antics, but because they somehow had been duped to believe his promised tax cuts would benefit their miniscule finances in the long run.  It's hard to think the Guardian made any effort to see the election from their point of view.  The Democratic party clearly hadn't done enough to convince them otherwise, but that's the Democratic party's fault, and the choice was theirs as private citizens.


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## William of Walworth (Oct 2, 2006)

catrina said:
			
		

> Yes, but this is a public forum for discussion, not a personal home address.
> 
> That really pissed me off, and I was all for Bush not winning at whatever cost as the next person, but who the hell did they think they are?  That's a child's excuse that they didn't know what kind of effect that would have.  Where did they get their addresses from to begin with?
> 
> Most of the people in Ohio who were voting for Bush were doing so not because of his right wing Christian antics, but because they somehow had been duped to believe his promised tax cuts would benefit their miniscule finances in the long run.  It's hard to think the Guardian made any effort to see the election from their point of view.  The Democratic party clearly hadn't done enough to convince them otherwise, but that's the Democratic party's fault, and the choice was theirs as private citizens.



Have I said anything otherwise?

I thought that particular Guardian campaign was utterly stupid and counterproductive ... and said so above ... 

That still doesn't make me like Freepers and ultra Republican NeoCons making it their mission to howl their intolerence of anything 'liberal'/'communist' (to them, no difference) on forums like this, especially a few years ago. Parts of the discussion areas of both the BBC and Guardian sites have at times been utterly trashed by such people.

Interesting about Bush winning on economics in Ohio. A lot of the coverage here -- not just the Guardian!! -- suggested that 'values' voters, Christian voters, etc. were being persuaded to turn out more effectively than the Democrats were getting their voters/potential voters out.


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## Yuwipi Woman (Oct 2, 2006)

editor said:
			
		

> Then maybe you should to see if it matches what you've said about the rest of the US?



Your New York friends must have been very polite and understanding people.


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## phildwyer (Oct 2, 2006)

The Guardian probably won Ohio, and thus the Presidency, for Bush with that campaign.  Makes you wonder what their *real* agenda is.


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## catrina (Oct 2, 2006)

William of Walworth said:
			
		

> Have I said anything otherwise?
> 
> .



No, I guess I got fired up being reminded of the scenario.

I just watched the Clinton interview on Fox News, has it been talked about on here yet?  If not I'll post up the link, pretty impressive stuff.


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## editor (Oct 2, 2006)

Yuwipi Woman said:
			
		

> Your New York friends must have been very polite and understanding people.


I was *working* there most of the time actually, so I wasn't hanging on with friends all day long you know.


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 2, 2006)

editor said:
			
		

> Hey, it's only the biggest city in the US!



It's also thousands of miles from here, and there have been other large US cities that I was more interested in visiting first. Bottom line is that I'm well familiar with the US, having visited it on a regular basis, over wide parts of the country, for at least the past three decades.


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 2, 2006)

editor said:
			
		

> I was *working* there most of the time actually, so I wasn't hanging on with friends all day long you know.



...just long enough to rankle them with that 911 comment?


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## catrina (Oct 2, 2006)

Actually, LA is bigger by 1.8 million people.

From the US Census site, LA = 9.93 million.  NYC (added up by each borough) = 8.13 million.


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## editor (Oct 2, 2006)

Johnny Canuck2 said:
			
		

> ...just long enough to rankle them with that 911 comment?


Give it a fucking rest, Johnny.


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## editor (Oct 2, 2006)

catrina said:
			
		

> Actually, LA is bigger by 1.8 million people.


Errr...not according to this site


> Top 50 Cities in the U.S. by Population and Rank
> 7/1/2005 population estimate
> 
> 1. New York, N.Y.	8,143,197
> 2. Los Angeles, Calif.	3,844,829


Or wikipedia


> New York City, New York 	8,143,197
> Los Angeles, California 	3,844,829


Or this site


> The US has nine cities with populations topping one million. New York City, with more than eight million residents, is by far the largest US city. Los Angeles, in second place, has a population of just below four million people.


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## editor (Oct 2, 2006)

Johnny Canuck2 said:
			
		

> Bottom line is that I'm well familiar with the US, having visited it on a regular basis, over wide parts of the country, for at least the past three decades.


And you think New York is just like the rest of the US then?


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## catrina (Oct 2, 2006)

editor said:
			
		

> Errr...not according to this site
> Or wikipedia
> Or this site



Well if you're counting all of New York's 5 boroughs, then you have to count all of Los Angeles county.

US census data:

http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/06/06037.html


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## editor (Oct 2, 2006)

catrina said:
			
		

> Well if you're counting all of New York's 5 boroughs, then you have to count all of Los Angeles county.


Err, I simply said that New York is the US's biggest city.

And I was right.


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## catrina (Oct 2, 2006)

editor said:
			
		

> Err, I simply said that New York is the US's biggest city.
> 
> And I was right.



Los Angeles the city would be equivalent to Manhattan the borough.  They have Beverly Hills listed separately on census data, which when you're talking about LA is not separate (in the same way as Staten Island is considered New York).

There is no consistency across states in terms of nomenclature..

I have witnessed the very sign driving into Los Angeles that had written underneath 'Population:  8.9 million.'  That was in 1989 though.

Edited to say:  Actually, I seem to be blatantly wrong, the sign must have been for the county.


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## editor (Oct 2, 2006)

catrina said:
			
		

> Actually, I seem to be blatantly wrong, the sign must have been for the county.


Yep!


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 2, 2006)

editor said:
			
		

> And you think New York is just like the rest of the US then?



Not just like the rest; each city and area has a different flavour, outlook etc.

However, I don't think the attitudes of New Yorkers will differ that drastically from those of Chicagoans, etc. I think that is especially the case when it comes to the topic under discussion here.


----------



## editor (Oct 2, 2006)

Johnny Canuck2 said:
			
		

> However, I don't think the attitudes of New Yorkers will differ that drastically from those of Chicagoans, etc. I think that is especially the case when it comes to the topic under discussion here.


Funny how you only mention Chicago and not more distant cities like Omaha, Dallas, Phoenix, Denver, Cheyenne etc etc, isn't it?

Do you think New York's  the same as those places too?


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 2, 2006)

editor said:
			
		

> Funny how you only mention Chicago and not more distant cities like Omaha, Dallas, Phoenix, Denver, Cheyenne etc etc, isn't it?
> 
> Do you think New York's  the same as those places too?



No. I don't think New York is the 'same' as any other city.

However, the similarities will be greater with large cities in the Northeast, with Chicago being the closest.

But to reiterate, when it comes to comments about 911, such as we're discussing here, it's my opinion that the reaction across the US would be pretty much the same, and that comes from my long experience with americans from all walks of life, and all areas.

Btw, I've never been to New York, but I've known a number  of them, and work with a couple, in fact, so I'm not a total stranger to the attitudes of new yorkers.


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## editor (Oct 2, 2006)

Johnny Canuck2 said:
			
		

> Btw, I've never been to New York, but I've known a number  of them, and work with a couple, in fact, so I'm not a total stranger to the attitudes of new yorkers.


Me neither.


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 3, 2006)

editor said:
			
		

> Me neither.



That's good: have we gone far enough with this then?


----------



## William of Walworth (Oct 3, 2006)

catrina said:
			
		

> I just watched the Clinton interview on Fox News, has it been talked about on here yet?  If not I'll post up the link, pretty impressive stuff.



I wouldn't be surprised if there was another thread somewhere, but it'd be interesting to hear more information here about what was said -- is there a text transcript?

Not too hot on video links here right now ... 

What do you think yourself?


----------



## colacho (Oct 4, 2006)

Johnny Canuck2 said:
			
		

> I agree with that. I think the almost slavish adherence to authority you find in the UK comes from its roots as a class-bound monarchy, while the anti authoritarian attitude of the US comes from its roots in rebellion and revolution.
> 
> I think Canada falls somewhere in between.



Talk about stereotypical tripe. Here it is. And didn't Johnny miss the point? The US seems much less antiauthoritarian than the UK to me, from my experience. Just look at the way cops in the US expect, no, demand to be treated. Incredibly arrogant. And if you don't go along, guess what happens?


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