# War on Woke: Conservative Cultural Campaigning



## Artaxerxes (Feb 16, 2021)

Probably about time we had a single thread on this as the conservatives have been making efforts to launch this the last few months and are really stepping up with the assault on heritage bodies and unis rumoured this week.


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## Artaxerxes (Feb 16, 2021)

Twatter briefings.


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## rubbershoes (Feb 16, 2021)

So no government ,money will be spent on the festival of brexit then


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## littlebabyjesus (Feb 16, 2021)

Who gets to decide what is or isn't political? Why politicians of course. Who is better qualified? 

It's just common sense really.


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## Artaxerxes (Feb 16, 2021)

rubbershoes said:


> So no government ,money will be spent on the festival of brexit then



That’s The Good Politics not the bad lefty ones that tells lies about things like colonialism and slavery


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## Teaboy (Feb 16, 2021)

I don't really know what woke is.  What I do know is that every time I see someone declaring war on something (that's not actually a declaration of war as in shooting and dying) its been a total and embarrassing loss.  Utterly routed in every regard.

I see no reason why this also won't end the same way.


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## littlebabyjesus (Feb 16, 2021)

Major's 'Back to Basics'?

This is normally a sign that a government is a bit rattled.


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## ska invita (Feb 16, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Twatter briefings.













						'Festival of Brexit' can play 'powerful role' in healing UK, organiser says
					

The man behind the "Festival of Brexit" issues a call for "big ideas" to bring the UK together.



					www.bbc.co.uk
				




?


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## not-bono-ever (Feb 16, 2021)

Heritage is history - how can that not be political?


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## AmateurAgitator (Feb 16, 2021)

Teaboy said:


> I don't really know what woke is.  What I do know is that every time I see someone declaring war on something (that's not actually a declaration of war as in shooting and dying) its been a total and embarrassing loss.  Utterly routed in every regard.
> 
> I see no reason why this also won't end the same way.


Being 'woke' is simply an awareness of injustice and inequality. I think it's a term that originated with  black americans. To conservatives it is the same as 'SJW'.


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## AmateurAgitator (Feb 16, 2021)

I wonder what they mean by 'anti-British' eh. This is really disturbing.


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## Brainaddict (Feb 16, 2021)

Like the war on political correctness, which tried to position not being an arsehole as an elite project, they are trying to give the impression there's some elite movement to abolish British history (or sometimes gender), rather than changes to how history or gender is viewed having been pushed from the grassroots. I am not convinced they will really enjoy dealing with the legal battles over who can or can't speak at university but we'll see.

I reckon though that 'the left' in the UK, such as it is, is in dangerous waters when it focuses on the past without offering a positive vision of the future. People will see the tussles over history as intellectual masturbation unless it comes with an inspiring program for making life better for the majority - something that Corbynism didn't manage (It had a program but no-one was excited by it).  Whether or not the Tories can win votes with this bullshit war on woke depends to some extent on whether people understand the revising of history to be linked to something that can bring benefit to them I reckon. On the terrain of the past alone the Conservatives will have a natural edge.


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## two sheds (Feb 16, 2021)

So that's SWP guest speakers at every university event then. Good method of fundraising if they're turned down.


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## littlebabyjesus (Feb 16, 2021)

No-one was excited by 'corbynism'?

It didn't win the election but it's way off to say no one was excited by it.


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## Artaxerxes (Feb 16, 2021)

Brainaddict said:


> Like the war on political correctness, which tried to position not being an arsehole as an elite project, they are trying to give the impression there's some elite movement to abolish British history (or sometimes gender), rather than changes to how history or gender is viewed having been pushed from the grassroots. I am not convinced they will really enjoy dealing with the legal battles over who can or can't speak at university but we'll see.
> 
> I reckon though that 'the left' in the UK, such as it is, is in dangerous waters when it focuses on the past without offering a positive vision of the future. People will see the tussles over history as intellectual masturbation unless it comes with an inspiring program for making life better for the majority - something that Corbynism didn't manage (It had a program but no-one was excited by it).  Whether or not the Tories can win votes with this bullshit war on woke depends to some extent on whether people understand the revising of history to be linked to something that can bring benefit to them I reckon. On the terrain of the past alone the Conservatives will have a natural edge.



The media are selling it and more than a few people are buying it so we’ll see what happens.


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## Brainaddict (Feb 16, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> No-one was excited by 'corbynism'?
> 
> It didn't win the election but it's way off to say no one was excited by it.


No-one was excited by the program it offered, bar a few activists. Of course no-one is an exaggeration. I'm sure you can find some. The ability to construct an appealing vision of the future was severely hampered by nostalgia for 70s social democracy.


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## stethoscope (Feb 16, 2021)

Perhaps like 'Back to Basics' it'll end in some sort of sex scandal... "Williamson caught in zoom wank".


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## Sasaferrato (Feb 16, 2021)

I absolutely agree on the government with regard to refusing to let people speak. 

It is absolutely unconscionable that politics of one stripe is encouraged, whilst opposing political view is silenced.

What are the left afraid of? Are they afraid that when their bullshit views are challenged, they will be exposed for what they are?

The left wing bias inherent in tertiary education is a disgrace. It is more than time that this is addressed.

Some Marxist fuckwit in the NUS decides that they don't agree with a potential speaker, so 'cancels' them. In no way can this be judges as being equitable.

If the NUS has any charitable status, this needs to be removed, they are not a charity, they are a hard left cesspit.


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## two sheds (Feb 16, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> No-one was excited by 'corbynism'?
> 
> It didn't win the election but it's way off to say no one was excited by it.



Well quite, tens of thousands joined Labour because of the policies, and we've had several years of the mocking 'corbynistas' label for people who _were _in favour of them.


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## LDC (Feb 16, 2021)

Sasaferrato said:


> I absolutely agree on the government with regard to refusing to let people speak.
> 
> It is absolutely unconscionable that politics of one stripe is encouraged, whilst opposing political view is silenced.
> 
> ...



Are you playing some kind of anti-woke word salad bingo?


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## ddraig (Feb 16, 2021)

Sasaferrato said:


> I absolutely agree on the government with regard to refusing to let people speak.
> 
> It is absolutely unconscionable that politics of one stripe is encouraged, whilst opposing political view is silenced.
> 
> ...


Who has been silenced that shouldn't have been?


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## two sheds (Feb 16, 2021)

BNP?


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## gentlegreen (Feb 16, 2021)

Rees-Smogg was somewhat "inconvenienced" a while back at the institution where I used to work - yards from my office as it happens - though I'd long gone home by then.


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## DotCommunist (Feb 16, 2021)

free speech means you have to listen to any speaker wherever they are without heckling or shouting them down or standing outside slagging them and their ideas off. Those are the rules now, and they will I'm sure be applied equally to all viewpoints and not just the cunts desperate to mainstream race science again.


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## danny la rouge (Feb 16, 2021)

Sasaferrato said:


> I absolutely agree on the government with regard to refusing to let people speak.
> 
> It is absolutely unconscionable that politics of one stripe is encouraged, whilst opposing political view is silenced.
> 
> ...


You forgot “cultural Marxism”.


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## Artaxerxes (Feb 16, 2021)

ddraig said:


> Who has been silenced that shouldn't have been?



All those celebs with prime slots on BBC news and national newspaper columns have been unfairly silenced from speaking at Unis for far to long. Now please buy their book available from all good retailers priced £19:99


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## gentlegreen (Feb 16, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> You forgot “cultural Marxism”.


And "Intersectionality" and "feminazi" ...


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## two sheds (Feb 16, 2021)

Laurence Fox - you never hear his opinions anywhere.


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## Sasaferrato (Feb 16, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Well quite, tens of thousands joined Labour because of the policies, and we've had several years of the mocking 'corbynistas' label for people who _were _in favour of them.


Corbyn delivered an eighty seat majority to one of the worst PMs we have ever seen. Quite a feat.

And yet, some posters here feel that Corbyn's policies weren't radical enough. 

I gather though that people who left the Labour party under Corbyn, have re-joined under Starmer. Swings and roundabouts.


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## stethoscope (Feb 16, 2021)

Sasaferrato said:


> What are the left afraid of? Are they afraid that when their bullshit views are challenged, they will be exposed for what they are?



Clearly not half as afraid as the right are, to resort to this sort of desperate authoritarian distraction during a pandemic and the economy at risk of going down the shitter.


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## Artaxerxes (Feb 16, 2021)

Brainaddict said:


> No-one was excited by the program it offered, bar a few activists. Of course no-one is an exaggeration. I'm sure you can find some. The ability to construct an appealing vision of the future was severely hampered by nostalgia for 70s social democracy.



Research suggests the majority of Corbyns policies were between 50 and 70% popular when stripped of the name Corbyn and Labour 

It suggests the problem is not so much with either Corbyn or Labour but one of marketing and reporting


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## two sheds (Feb 16, 2021)

Sasaferrato said:


> Corbyn delivered an eighty seat majority to one of the worst PMs we have ever seen. Quite a feat.
> 
> And yet, some posters here feel that Corbyn's policies weren't radical enough.
> 
> I gather though that people who left the Labour party under Corbyn, have re-joined under Starmer. Swings and roundabouts.



Do you have figures for that? I'd seen that there'd been a large loss of membership.


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## two sheds (Feb 16, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Research suggests the majority of Corbyns policies were between 50 and 70% popular when stripped of the name Corbyn and Labour
> 
> It suggests the problem is not so much with either Corbyn or Labour but one of marketing and reporting


indeed, reporting/lack of reporting/biased reporting being the major one with 90% of the press.


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## Santino (Feb 16, 2021)

Sasaferrato said:


> If the NUS has any charitable status, this needs to be removed, they are not a charity, they are a hard left cesspit.


Can you outline the legal basis for removing charitable status on the basis of political viewpoints? Or would you not agree that it is absolutely unconscionable that politics of one stripe is encouraged, whilst opposing political view is silenced?


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## littlebabyjesus (Feb 16, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Do you have figures for that? I'd seen that there'd been a large loss of membership.


Yeah, membership fell by 10 per cent in the first seven months of Starmer's leadership. I'm sure there are a few who've rejoined now Corbyn is gone, but they are massively outnumbered by those who have left because of Starmer.

Labour hit by ‘exodus’ of members led by Corbyn supporters | The Week UK


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## Ax^ (Feb 16, 2021)

hmm country pretty much tied into another ten years of Tory rule at least, labour is trying to out patriot the Tory and most media outlets are owned by business or people with right leading tendency

but fuck me they have not go enough voices yet


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## AmateurAgitator (Feb 16, 2021)

My experience of being a student at university was that both myself and those like me, and the right-wing students, were allowed to speak our minds (and I did a year of Politics, I left uni a year or two ago now). The lecturers and tutors were predominantly centrist and not 'left-wing'. The curriculum also lacked 'left-wing' content and was about getting a career. Education curriculums are pro-establishment and you'd be hard-pressed to find a left-wing teacher in schools from my experience, and the experience of others I know.

The idea that universities are being 'taken over by the far-left' or that 'left-wing teachers are brainwashing our kids' in schools is simply a far-right conspiracy being used by the right to manipulate things and impose neo-McArthyism.

What I will also say is that Prevent is a disaster and needs to go.


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## Sasaferrato (Feb 16, 2021)

ddraig said:


> Who has been silenced that shouldn't have been?



Anyone who has been prevented from speaking.

In a democracy, everyone has the right (within the constraints of the law) to be heard. If you don't want to listen, don't go, but you have no right whatsoever to block speakers because you don't approve.









						The 'Banned' List
					

A growing list of speakers, academics, and others in the UK who have been banned, censored, disciplined or otherwise threatened for their views.




					www.afaf.org.uk


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## Sasaferrato (Feb 16, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Do you have figures for that? I'd seen that there'd been a large loss of membership.



No. Anecdotal.


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## ddraig (Feb 16, 2021)

Sasaferrato said:


> Anyone who has been prevented from speaking.
> 
> In a democracy, everyone has the right (within the constraints of the law) to be heard. If you don't want to listen, don't go, but you have no right whatsoever to block speakers because you don't approve.
> 
> ...


Who particularly has stood out for you?


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## two sheds (Feb 16, 2021)

Sasaferrato said:


> Corbyn delivered an eighty seat majority to one of the worst PMs we have ever seen. Quite a feat.
> 
> And yet, some posters here feel that Corbyn's policies weren't radical enough.
> 
> I gather though that people who left the Labour party under Corbyn, have re-joined under Starmer. Swings and roundabouts.



.. the party has lost 56,874 members since April.

Labour NEC vote reveals huge drop in party membership since Starmer's election

That was in November and I know for a fact there's been at least one more since then.

Unless you have more accurate figures? You seem to lose your head in these sorts of posts Sas.



Sasaferrato said:


> No. Anecdotal.



Anecdote in the daily mail?


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## Teaboy (Feb 16, 2021)

I like the idea of the NUS being hard left.  The uni I was at the NUS hierarchy was full of sports type who were there to get as much money for the sports clubs and as much sex as possible in general.

I've just googled the VP as his name is unusual.  Turns out he now runs his own events company.  You don't get much more hard left then that.


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## LDC (Feb 16, 2021)

I do think there's a serious discussion to be had about some of this stuff, it's been touched on in other threads, but surely we can agree whatever the problems and issues are around it anything the Tories do in relation to it will be fucking terrible?


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## ddraig (Feb 16, 2021)

Sasaferrato said:


> Anyone who has been prevented from speaking.
> 
> In a democracy, everyone has the right (within the constraints of the law) to be heard. If you don't want to listen, don't go, but you have no right whatsoever to block speakers because you don't approve.
> 
> ...


What if 99% of the people attending or part of an institution don't want the person to speak? Should the "majority view" be respected? Or anyone should be able to say what they want, where they want and when they want?


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## Sasaferrato (Feb 16, 2021)

Count Cuckula said:


> My experience of being a student at university was that both myself and those like me, and the right-wing students, were allowed to speak our minds. The lecturers and tutors were predominantly centrist and not 'left-wing'. The curriculum also lacked 'left-wing' content and was about making money and getting a career. Education curriculums are pro-establishment and you'd be hard-pressed to find a left-wing teacher in schools from my experience, and the experience of others I know.
> 
> The idea that universities are being 'taken over by the far-left' or that 'left-wing teachers are brainwashing our kids' in schools is simply a far-right conspiracy being used by the right to manipulate things and impose neo-McArthyism.
> 
> ...




When small children are being referred, it is a farce.


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## Brainaddict (Feb 16, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Research suggests the majority of Corbyns policies were between 50 and 70% popular when stripped of the name Corbyn and Labour
> 
> It suggests the problem is not so much with either Corbyn or Labour but one of marketing and reporting


That was an issue of course. Though a hostile press needs to be assumed by any movement. As for the popularity of individual policies, sure, people prefer to be better managed than managed by total arseholes. But it's not necessarily an exciting vision of the future. 

Anyway, my point is I don't think we should fight over the past without talking about the future at the same time. I suspect that will lead to the Tories winning their bogus war. They're not entirely stupid, they're picking a fight on terrain where they have the advantage.


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## AmateurAgitator (Feb 16, 2021)

Sasaferrato said:


> When small children are being referred, it is a farce.


It has also been used to silence a left-wing academic simply for discussing the concept of revolution in his work.


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## not-bono-ever (Feb 16, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> I do think there's a serious discussion to be had about some of this stuff, it's been touched on in other threads, but surely we can agree whatever the problems and issues are around it anything the Tories do in relation to it will be fucking terrible?


 
Ineffectual more likely


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## hitmouse (Feb 16, 2021)

DotCommunist said:


> free speech means you have to listen to any speaker wherever they are without heckling or shouting them down or standing outside slagging them and their ideas off. Those are the rules now, and they will I'm sure be applied equally to all viewpoints and not just the cunts desperate to mainstream race science again.


I'm gonna grass the mods on here up to the government for suppressing free speech. It's anti-British of them to suppress dissenting narratives like click here rayban sales 90% offer, hare krishna rascal pigs, and 9/11 conspiracy stuff.


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## Jeff Robinson (Feb 16, 2021)

I guess "anti-woke" sounds better than "racist, transphobic cunt" as a self-identifier.


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## not-bono-ever (Feb 16, 2021)

Moribund backwards looking politics, yeh but the war dead. Etc.


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## Sasaferrato (Feb 16, 2021)

not-bono-ever said:


> Moribund backwards looking politics, yeh but the war dead. Etc.




There is an advert for Erskine that goes 'The dead are dead, it is the living that need your help'.  

War dead are just that, dead. Certainly remember them, but they were just men like any other.

I find the 'cult' of almost worshipping the fallen a bit disquieting.


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## Sasaferrato (Feb 16, 2021)

Brainaddict said:


> That was an issue of course. Though a hostile press needs to be assumed by any movement. As for the popularity of individual policies, sure, people prefer to be better managed than managed by total arseholes. But it's not necessarily an exciting vision of the future.
> 
> Anyway, my point is I don't think we should fight over the past without talking about the future at the same time. I suspect that will lead to the Tories winning their bogus war. They're not entirely stupid, they're picking a fight on terrain where they have the advantage.



It's not a war. It is simply a re-establishment of the status quo ante. 

I would not dream of suggesting that someone be denied the right to speak, because I didn't agree with them.


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## Sasaferrato (Feb 16, 2021)

ddraig said:


> What if 99% of the people attending or part of an institution don't want the person to speak? Should the "majority view" be respected? Or anyone should be able to say what they want, where they want and when they want?



Absolutely. Within the law of course.

If 99% don't want to listen, then they won't go and hear the speaker. Surely an empty hall is a much more eloquent comment than refusing to let someone speak?


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## Sasaferrato (Feb 16, 2021)

Teaboy said:


> I like the idea of the NUS being hard left.  The uni I was at the NUS hierarchy was full of sports type who were there to get as much money for the sports clubs and as much sex as possible in general.
> 
> I've just googled the VP as his name is unusual.  Turns out he now runs his own events company.  You don't get much more hard left then that.



Ummm... there is a difference between people involved with the NUS whilst at university, and the hierarchy of the NUS, who are employed by the union.


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## Sasaferrato (Feb 16, 2021)

two sheds said:


> .. the party has lost 56,874 members since April.
> 
> Labour NEC vote reveals huge drop in party membership since Starmer's election
> 
> ...



Guardian.


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## hitmouse (Feb 16, 2021)

Sasaferrato said:


> It's not a war. It is simply a re-establishment of the status quo ante.
> 
> I would not dream of suggesting that someone be denied the right to speak, because I didn't agree with them.


You would, though, surely? Say I rock up to a geology class and say "hello, I'm a flat earther, I demand that I be allowed to speak so we can debate my controversial opinions", would you insist that I should be given time and space, or would you recognise that as being a waste of everyone's time?


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## killer b (Feb 16, 2021)

Sasaferrato said:


> Ummm... there is a difference between people involved with the NUS whilst at university, and the hierarchy of the NUS, who are employed by the union.


how come you're such an expert on the people who get involved in the NUS at university?


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## Artaxerxes (Feb 16, 2021)

"Hello, I'm Hitler, I'm here to tell you how to be a fantastic business leader and entrepreneur."

No you can't cancel him speaking just because he's gassed 6 million people and killed another twenty million, that would be just rude.


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## Serge Forward (Feb 16, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> You would, though, surely? Say I rock up to a geology class and say "hello, I'm a flat earther, I demand that I be allowed to speak so we can debate my controversial opinions", would you insist that I should be given time and space, or would you recognise that as being a waste of everyone's time?


I, for one, would love to hear about that big fucking ice wall at the edge


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## two sheds (Feb 16, 2021)

Anti-vaxxers will be looking on with interest, and they're the sort who would follow through on any court case.


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## Cloo (Feb 16, 2021)

It's a totally manufactured culture war. I think there have probably been a few  overzealous incidents but it hardly amounts to a War on Free Speech


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## Sasaferrato (Feb 16, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> You would, though, surely? Say I rock up to a geology class and say "hello, I'm a flat earther, I demand that I be allowed to speak so we can debate my controversial opinions", would you insist that I should be given time and space, or would you recognise that as being a waste of everyone's time?



Well, it is their time, and that of any audience. I would probably attend a local talk by someone who thinks the earth is flat, just to hear their 'evidence'.

It is never acceptable when someone is prevented from speaking (within the law).

Shutting down discussion is the stuff of tyranny, and in the case of tertiary education, this tyranny is hard left. That is indisputable.


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## hitmouse (Feb 16, 2021)

I bet AM and Skengdo must be over the moon that the Woke Metropolitan Police won't be allowed to cancel them anymore.


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## littlebabyjesus (Feb 16, 2021)

Sasaferrato said:


> Guardian.


Would that be the same Guardian that waged an ongoing campaign against Corbyn throughout his time as leader? 

Now peddling anecdotes that are entirely at odds with the general direction of travel and failing to mention it? Well I never.


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## Santino (Feb 16, 2021)

Santino said:


> Can you outline the legal basis for removing charitable status on the basis of political viewpoints? Or would you not agree that it is absolutely unconscionable that politics of one stripe is encouraged, whilst opposing political view is silenced?


Would quite like an answer to this Sasaferrato 

I thought you would be grateful of the opportunity to defend your ideas.


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## Sasaferrato (Feb 16, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Anti-vaxxers will be looking on with interest, and they're the sort who would follow through on any court case.



That is an interesting one. 

I cannot help but feel that an average reading age in the UK of nine years, is a major part of the anti-vax problem. If people cannot understand the literature regarding vaccination, then they are prone to fall prey to those who express their anti-vax view in words of one syllable.

' The average reading age of the UK population is 9 years – that is, they have achieved the reading ability normally expected of a 9 year old. The Guardian has a reading age of 14 and the Sun has a reading age of 8. '









						The average reading age is…?
					

The average reading age of the UK is 11. That’s what the speaker told us at the last Socitm meeting I attended. It struck me as an interesting statistic and possibly a damning indictment of our edu…




					guerrillaworking.com
				



.

A reading age of nine is an appalling reflection on those paid to educate our children.

This is from 2012.


"Britain has up to eight million adults who are functionally illiterate, a report out today revealed. The World Literacy Foundation said one in five of the UK population are so poor at reading and writing they struggle to read a medicine label or use a chequebook".

"Figures show it costs the UK economy £81bn a year".









						Are one in five British adults illiterate? - Full Fact
					

Today's Mail and Sun reported that a staggering one in five British people are functionally illiterate, based on findings from the charity the World Literacy Foundation. Do they need to read between the lines?




					fullfact.org
				





I know that after some research, HMRC reset all documents to a reading age of 12.


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## Santino (Feb 16, 2021)

Sasaferrato said:


> A reading age of nine is an appalling reflection on those paid to educate our children.


Why them and not the politicians who run the education system?


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## Sasaferrato (Feb 16, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Would that be the same Guardian that waged an ongoing campaign against Corbyn throughout his time as leader?
> 
> Now peddling anecdotes that are entirely at odds with the general direction of travel and failing to mention it? Well I never.



I don't write the Guardian, I read it. 

On this occasion, they got it wrong. To me, it was an 'oh' moment, something that is of neither importance or particular interest.  

The Guardian in general may have been opposed to Corbyn, but Owen Jones appeared to have an orgasm every time he mentioned Corbyn.


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## Little Piranha (Feb 16, 2021)

Sasaferrato said:


> That is an interesting one.
> 
> I cannot help but feel that an average reading age in the UK of nine years, is a major part of the anti-vax problem. If people cannot understand the literature regarding vaccination, then they are prone to fall prey to those who express their anti-vax view in words of one syllable.
> 
> ...


If you read the link from FullFact which you posted, it says these figures are dated and unreliable.


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## xenon (Feb 16, 2021)

I haven’t been invited to Oxford University to talk to the students about my radical theories. An outrageous assault on freedom of speech.


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## smokedout (Feb 16, 2021)

xenon said:


> I haven’t been invited to Oxford University to talk to the students about my radical theories. And outrageous assault on freedom of speech.



The Sunday Times wouldn't even give me a newspaper column.  All I wanted to do was call for the violent overthrow of capitalism and the state in a national newspaper but the woke are determined to silence me.


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## chilango (Feb 16, 2021)

Sasaferrato said:


> I absolutely agree on the government with regard to refusing to let people speak.
> 
> It is absolutely unconscionable that politics of one stripe is encouraged, whilst opposing political view is silenced.
> 
> ...



You know this pretty much a made up scare, right?

That it almost never happens?


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## killer b (Feb 16, 2021)

chilango said:


> You know this pretty much a made up scare, right?
> 
> That it almost never happens?


The guy believes those stories about the further reaches of student politics they print in the scum press from time to time are 'the NUS'. He doesn't know it's made up.


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## ferrelhadley (Feb 16, 2021)

Everyone misrepresents what the "other side" are concerned with, so everyone gets to be super outraged about the "other side". 
Perfect online politics in echo chambers. 

Outrage about outrage. Not an original thought in sight.


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## The39thStep (Feb 16, 2021)

Sasaferrato said:


> I absolutely agree on the government with regard to refusing to let people speak.
> 
> It is absolutely unconscionable that politics of one stripe is encouraged, whilst opposing political view is silenced.
> 
> ...



I always remember when a teacher I knew wanted to invite a Holocaust survivor to speak at the school he worked at and one of the Tory governers said he didn't have a problem with it providing there was someone there with an opposing view. Is this the sort of thing you are on about?


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## killer b (Feb 16, 2021)

ferrelhadley said:


> Everyone misrepresents what the "other side" are concerned with, so everyone gets to be super outraged about the "other side".
> Perfect online politics in echo chambers.
> 
> Outrage about outrage. Not an original thought in sight.


apart from yours, oh sage.


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## brogdale (Feb 16, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> I always remember when a teacher I knew wanted to invite a Holocaust survivor to speak at the school he worked at and one of the Tory governers said he didn't have a problem with it providing there was someone there with an opposing view. Is this the sort of thing you are on about?


School governorship has always been such a massive cunt magnet.


----------



## Nikkormat (Feb 16, 2021)

Sasaferrato said:


> It is never acceptable when someone is prevented from speaking (within the law).



I doubt many people on here would disagree, but there is a difference between denial of the right to speak, and denial of a particular platform. Not being invited to speak at a university is not denial of free speech.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Feb 16, 2021)

brogdale said:


> School governorship has always been such a massive cunt magnet.



Honestly think one of the key questions for many things is "do you want to be in charge?" And anyone who says yes is automatically disqualified.


----------



## Brainaddict (Feb 16, 2021)

ferrelhadley said:


> Everyone misrepresents what the "other side" are concerned with, so everyone gets to be super outraged about the "other side".
> Perfect online politics in echo chambers.
> 
> Outrage about outrage. Not an original thought in sight.


But the right misrepresents power relationships not just ideas. It treats insurgent ideas as being those of the elite, and dominant ideas as underdogs under threat from powerful and sinister forces. That's the main sneakiness in their argument. The government, Telegraph, Spectator, Daily Mail and those who agree with them are all being bullied by students, apparently. And what do we do with bullies? We stand up to them. By using the full force of the state, backed by a chorus of the majority of the media. That's the danger in this debate.


----------



## chilango (Feb 16, 2021)

Here's a straight forward question for you Sasaferrato ...

Do you think students should be exposed to "extremist" views/ideas?


----------



## hitmouse (Feb 16, 2021)

chilango said:


> You know this pretty much a made up scare, right?
> 
> That it almost never happens?


Remember that comedian whose show got CANCELLED by Goldsmiths because they couldn't take her controversial opinions, and also because only eight people had bought tickets? That were a proper classic of the genre, imo.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Feb 16, 2021)

chilango said:


> Here's a straight forward question for you Sasaferrato ...
> 
> Do you think students should be exposed to "extremist" views/ideas?


Define 'extremist'.


----------



## mojo pixy (Feb 16, 2021)

Sasaferrato said:


> Absolutely. Within the law of course.
> 
> If 99% don't want to listen, then they won't go and hear the speaker. Surely an empty hall is a much more eloquent comment than refusing to let someone speak?



On the other hand, should a holocaust denier be allowed to hold a holocaust denial event for the local holocaust denial society? Even if only half a dozen people show up, is it even something that should be allowed on campus? Should it be allowed along with protests against it? That would seem to be the 'real deal' free speech, but the potential for violence would be massive and I'm not sure _free speech_ is necessarily worth that. Obviously if the HolDenSoc want to meet at someone's house that's entirely up to them, but the question is should it be allowed in a _public_ space? 

Maybe the issue is around opinion vs truth. If someone has objectionable views and presents them only _as opinion_, for me that's less of a problem than someone presenting demonstrable untruth as truth, eg antivaxers, or holocaust deniers. I believe racism is based on obvious lies but someone else would call it _a matter of opinion_. A lot of people hide behind that little phrase and it's very difficult to deal with.

Ideally anyone should be free to say what they want, and be free to deal with the consequences in terms of pushback. The problem is, who else might suffer the consequences of that speech? Does incitement _always sound like_ incitement? What I especially don't like though is when someone claims Free Speech for themselves but denies it to people who shout them down. Either you believe in it, or you don't.

Anyway I'm not sure where I am now, this is rather a mess of half-feelings and misunderstanding. But as I say to my son, you have one mouth and two ears, so listen double and talk half.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Feb 16, 2021)

Little Piranha said:


> If you read the link from FullFact which you posted, it says these figures are dated and unreliable.


2019 is hardly dated.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 16, 2021)

Large majority tory administrations always indulge in this sort of identity politics seeking to other alternative viewpoints; remember the "Loony Left"?


----------



## chilango (Feb 16, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Remember that comedian whose show got CANCELLED by Goldsmiths because they couldn't take her controversial opinions, and also because only eight people had bought tickets? That were a proper classic of the genre, imo.



Fairly sure something similar happened at my current Uni. Hopkins or someone wasn't selling tickets so manufactured threats to get get her gig shut down for security reasons. Before any of us had chance to organise any sort of protest.


----------



## hitmouse (Feb 16, 2021)

Sasaferrato said:


> 2019 is hardly dated.






			
				Fullfact.org said:
			
		

> As it happens we were able to trace the source of Becky's claim back to an OECD report called Literacy in the Information Age, which does include the one in five stat.
> 
> However there are a number of problems with the figure used in the context that it was this morning.
> 
> Firstly, it wasn't one that was revealed 'today'. Far from it, this research actually dates from 1996.


There's a joke about reading comprehension to be made somewhere here, I'm sure of it.


----------



## MickiQ (Feb 16, 2021)

chilango said:


> Here's a straight forward question for you Sasaferrato ...
> 
> Do you think students should be exposed to "extremist" views/ideas?


One person's extremism is another persons common sense so that is a very dangerous road to start going down, As for whether students should be 'exposed' to views/ideas that other people don't approve of. Well students (university at least) are adults and they are supposed to be intelligent  adults at that so they should be allowed to make their own minds up.


----------



## Santino (Feb 16, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Large majority tory administrations always indulge in this sort of identity politics seeking to other alternative viewpoints; remember the "Loony Left"?


They were pretty loony though, to be fair. All those rights for gay people and negotiating with the IRA.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 16, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> One person's extremism is another persons common sense so that is a very dangerous road to start going down, As for whether students should be 'exposed' to views/ideas that other people don't approve of. Well students (university at least) are adults and they are supposed to be intelligent  adults at that so they should be allowed to make their own minds up.


Yep, and a further difficulty that the Tories face wrt to HE students is that their privatisation/marketisation of the sector has effectively turned students into consumers...and their own market driven beliefs dictate that the consumer is the ultimate arbiter of what is 'produced'.


----------



## chilango (Feb 16, 2021)

Sasaferrato said:


> Define 'extremist'.


Marxism?
Critical Race Theory?
Fucking Derrida?


----------



## Santino (Feb 16, 2021)

chilango said:


> Fucking Derrida?


A gentle and tender lover, by all accounts.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 16, 2021)

Sasaferrato said:


> Define 'extremist'.


tories will be in there somewhere


----------



## brogdale (Feb 16, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> tories will be in there somewhere


most of the PLP too


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 16, 2021)

brogdale said:


> most of the PLP too


certainly all the mps who voted to wage aggressive war on iraq. not to mention the lords.


----------



## agricola (Feb 16, 2021)

Speaking of cancel culture, I am amazed* that the US right wing media hasn't paid more attention to the story of Rebekah Jones - who says she was fired after refusing to manipulate virus statistics in Florida, back in May 2020.  Subsequently her home has been raided by the local cops, and a warrant was sworn out for her arrest.

* this is a fib


----------



## hitmouse (Feb 16, 2021)

chilango said:


> Marxism?
> Critical Race Theory?
> Fucking Derrida?


The acceptability of homosexuality as a pretended family relationship?


----------



## mojo pixy (Feb 16, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> certainly all the mps who voted to wage aggressive war on iraq. not to mention the lords.



I for one am fully in favour of aggressive war on the lords.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Feb 16, 2021)

Brainaddict said:


> Whether or not the Tories can win votes with this bullshit war on woke depends to some extent on whether people understand the revising of history to be linked to something that can bring benefit to them I reckon. On the terrain of the past alone the Conservatives will have a natural edge.


You only have to look at how popular this anti-woke sentiment is, and who the most popular media outlets and youtube channles are, to know it is probably a winning strategy for the tories -  even though it shouldn't be. There seems to be plenty of people out there who care more about this shit, and protecting statues, than trying to hold the government to account for the fact that theres over 100,000 people dead due to government failures regarding covid and inadequate services and infrastructure, pay and conditions at work and a lack of a proper safety net for working class people. It really is depressing and alarming.


----------



## Little Piranha (Feb 16, 2021)

Sasaferrato said:


> 2019 is hardly dated.


From the FullFact link:
"this research actually dates from 1996...the research overall is based on some conflicting and dated data, and studies whose relevance to the UK is questionable."


----------



## chilango (Feb 16, 2021)

Sasaferrato said:


> Define 'extremist'.



Which also begs the follow up question...

who gets to decide?


----------



## wemakeyousoundb (Feb 16, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> I always remember when a teacher I knew wanted to invite a Holocaust survivor to speak at the school he worked at and one of the Tory governers said he didn't have a problem with it providing there was *someone there with an opposing view*. Is this the sort of thing you are on about?


Someone who hadn't survived?


----------



## two sheds (Feb 16, 2021)

Sasaferrato said:


> Define 'extremist'.



Define 'hard left'



Sasaferrato said:


> Shutting down discussion is the stuff of tyranny, and in the case of tertiary education, this tyranny is hard left. That is indisputable.


----------



## danny la rouge (Feb 16, 2021)

Sasaferrato said:


> Define 'extremist'.


I’m an extremist. 😎


----------



## BobDavis (Feb 16, 2021)

What stands out for me is that poorer kids are not getting the laptops they were promised & their education is suffering disproportionally. University students are being ripped off £9pa for 3hrs a week of online lectures & the best our Secretary of State for Education can come out with is this bollocks. Just Tories throwing red meat to their core support. “Let’s defend the statues” “Statues of who?” “err dunno”.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Feb 16, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> I’m an extremist. 😎


You're not a definition, though. You're a f'r instance.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 16, 2021)

It's a big claim, but who are we to dispute it? DLR is _the definition of_ an extremist.


----------



## chilango (Feb 16, 2021)

Yeah. My dictionary just has a big, full colour, photo of Danny.


----------



## danny la rouge (Feb 16, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> It's a big claim, but who are we to dispute it? DLR is _the definition of_ an extremist.


It’s a relative term. It’s in the eye of the beholder.  It depends on there being a mainstream that extremists are outside of.  But what if the mainstream is intolerable?


----------



## Artaxerxes (Feb 16, 2021)

BobDavis said:


> What stands out for me is that poorer kids are not getting the laptops they were promised & their education is suffering disproportionally. University students are being ripped off £9pa for 3hrs a week of online lectures & the best our Secretary of State for Education can come out with is this bollocks. Just Tories throwing red meat to their core support. “Let’s defend the statues” “Statues of who?” “err dunno”.



"They put you in jail now, just for saying yer English!"


THIS HAS NEVER HAPPENED.


----------



## marty21 (Feb 16, 2021)

The way I understand it , the government want to fine institutions if they deplatform someone for being a bit racist-y or antisemitic-y. Either a fine or the 'victim' can sue them.

So they book a speaker,  who then says something racist-y on twitter , they decide they don't want the racist-y fuckwit to speak on account of their racist-y ways, the fuckwit can then sue the uni or whatever institution? Kind of an incentive to be racist-y or controversial?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 16, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> It’s a relative term. It’s in the eye of the beholder.  It depends on there being a mainstream that extremists are outside of.  But what if the mainstream is intolerable?


It's an odd one. Promoting ideas that any small child would recognise as reasonable, such as that limited essential resources need to be held in common so that everybody gets a fair share, can get you branded an extremist. Strange world.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 16, 2021)

marty21 said:


> The way I understand it , the government want to fine institutions if they deplatform someone for being a bit racist-y or antisemitic-y. Either a fine or the 'victim' can sue them.
> 
> So they book a speaker,  who then says something racist-y on twitter , they decide they don't want the racist-y fuckwit to speak on account of their racist-y ways, the fuckwit can then sue the uni or whatever institution? Kind of an incentive to be racist-y or controversial?


We should find some suitable candidate and encourage them to do it. There still exist other laws, such as the 2010 equality act, that can cause them to fall flat on their stupid faces. I suspect such a case might not turn out the way the government promises in court.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Feb 16, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> We should find some suitable candidate and encourage them to do it. There still exist other laws, such as the 2010 equality act, that can cause them to fall flat on their stupid faces. I suspect such a case might not turn out the way the government promises in court.



Well fortunately Gavin knows just the case(s).









						Gavin Williamson lauds student who called gays an 'abomination' as he reveals 'free speech' plan
					

Education secretary Gavin Williamson cited a student who branded gays an "abomination" as his justification for a "free speech champion".




					www.pinknews.co.uk
				






> Justifying his decision, Williamson cited the case of Felix Ngole, a mature student who was expelled from a university social work course in 2016 after he declared to his classmates that God “hates” homosexuality and accused gay people of committing a “wicked” act.
> 
> 
> Ngole’s expulsion from the University of Sheffield was later ruled unlawful by the Court of Appeal after the 40-year-old brought a legal challenge backed by anti-LGBT+ pressure group Christian Concern.





> “Todd” refers to Selina Todd, a University of Oxford professor who claimed to be “silenced” after she was uninvited from a feminist conference over her ties to the anti-trans pressure group Woman’s Place UK, while “Carl” refers to a Cambridge academic who was sacked over alleged links with far-right extremists.


----------



## two sheds (Feb 16, 2021)

I'm available for university talk tours on my basic premise that Gavin Williamson is an abomination and that God hates him.


----------



## Ax^ (Feb 16, 2021)

so is this just more of the "poor little racists" stick that be floating around the US for years

Racists must have a safe space 

fuck that


----------



## 8ball (Feb 16, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> so is this just more of the "poor little racists" stick that be floating around the US for years
> 
> Racists must have a safe space
> 
> fuck that



They have safe spaces all over the dark web.
And Mumsnet.


----------



## Ax^ (Feb 16, 2021)

8ball said:


> They have safe spaces all over the dark web.
> And Mumsnet.



oh but the government is going to give them access to Students because they don't have enough coverage

jebus and the same sort of people called remain policy's as Project fear

the Whole right Stick is Project Fear it all ways the "other" trying to taking something away from them

even when they are in power


----------



## eatmorecheese (Feb 16, 2021)




----------



## smokedout (Feb 16, 2021)

The Todd case was interesting because what actually happened is all the other speakers at the conference pulled out due to her appearance, which meant the organisers had to choose between cancelling the event or asking Todd not to speak.  It's hard to know how any new rules could address that.  If they cancel the event are they liable to get fined?  Should they be compelled to go ahead with just one speaker?  Or do they have to find a way to force those who've pulled out to attend and share a platform?  I don't really know how they'd do that.  A lot of these cases have been more complex than presented in the press, I suspect any attempts to legislate may stumble once that becomes apparant.


----------



## hitmouse (Feb 16, 2021)

The other speakers who pulled out need to be forcibly brought to the conference and compelled to deliver their speeches, possibly using shackles and cattle prods. That's what free speech is all about.

Also, obviously not the first such instance and won't be the last, but you'd think Williamson's cheerful line about "every Ngole, Carl or Todd" must be profoundly fucking embarrassing for anyone aligned with that LGB Alliance, "We're the real defenders of lesbians and their interests", kind of position.


----------



## Ax^ (Feb 16, 2021)

if only the Torys were  in power the 80's to share the same platform to both side...


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Feb 16, 2021)

smokedout said:


> The Todd case was interesting because what actually happened is all the other speakers at the conference pulled out due to her appearance, which meant the organisers had to choose between cancelling the event or asking Todd not to speak.  It's hard to know how any new rules could address that.  If they cancel the event are they liable to get fined?  Should they be compelled to go ahead with just one speaker?  Or do they have to find a way to force those who've pulled out to attend and share a platform?  I don't really know how they'd do that.  A lot of these cases have been more complex than presented in the press, I suspect any attempts to legislate may stumble once that becomes apparant.


I don't think any of this will ever meet a court of law; it all seems entirely legally untenable. Trouble is, just because it's all bullshit doesn't mean it doesn't do any damage. It helps in perpetuating existing bullshit prejudice which _does_.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Feb 16, 2021)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I don't think any of this will ever meet a court of law; it all seems entirely legally untenable. Trouble is, just because it's all bullshit doesn't mean it doesn't do any damage. It helps in perpetuating existing bullshit prejudice which _does_.



It's a blunt stick to use to justify withholding funding from anyone who gets out of line.

It won't see a court case but if you want paying you don't do the cancel culture fandango.


----------



## Brainaddict (Feb 16, 2021)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I don't think any of this will ever meet a court of law; it all seems entirely legally untenable. Trouble is, just because it's all bullshit doesn't mean it doesn't do any damage. It helps in perpetuating existing bullshit prejudice which _does_.


While I don't think many meaningful cases will reach court, I fear that a bunch of chancers will try to build careers in being dicks off the back of it. Get an insider to invite you to a university where you know you won't be welcome, which sparks protests against you, give the uni a choice of having loads of aggy protests against you, or cancelling and a court case. You win either way. Columns in the Daily Mail and regular spots on GB News and _kerching_. 

What I'm hoping is the test case is a holocaust denier or supporter of man-boy love or something and the government ends up looking aligned with them...


----------



## not-bono-ever (Feb 16, 2021)

we already have a eager community of  media competent contrary edgelords waiting for deployment to universities cross the nation


----------



## Ax^ (Feb 16, 2021)

you cannot put a tory mp in every uni across that nation

you have to sub it out to hangers on and companies that pay contributions to the cause

like track and trace


----------



## Jeremiah18.17 (Feb 16, 2021)

Brainaddict said:


> While I don't think many meaningful cases will reach court, I fear that a bunch of chancers will try to build careers in being dicks off the back of it. Get an insider to invite you to a university where you know you won't be welcome, which sparks protests against you, give the uni a choice of having loads of aggy protests against you, or cancelling and a court case. You win either way. Columns in the Daily Mail and regular spots on GB News and _kerching_.
> 
> What I'm hoping is the test case is a holocaust denier or supporter of man-boy love or something and the government ends up looking aligned with them...


This was basically Milo Yannopoulos’ entire MO in the states until he just went too far even for his contrarian fan base.


----------



## tim (Feb 16, 2021)

Sasaferrato said:


> Anyone who has been prevented from speaking.
> 
> In a democracy, everyone has the right (within the constraints of the law) to be heard. If you don't want to listen, don't go, but you have no right whatsoever to block speakers because you don't approve.
> 
> ...


Nobody's obliged to invite them to do so, though.


----------



## tim (Feb 17, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Large majority tory administrations always indulge in this sort of identity politics seeking to other alternative viewpoints; remember the "Loony Left"?



Yes, they certainly did for people like Linda Bellos

Labour feminist hero faces axe in transgender row


----------



## two sheds (Feb 17, 2021)

ugh i clicked that  quickly unclicked


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 17, 2021)

This bloke  Evan Smith@evanishistory has written a lot about no platform and its history in universities. He's got a book, here's a shorter version  pdf No Platform: A History of Anti-Fascism, Universities and the Limits of Free Speech and a recent article ( excuse the Guardian link)  The university ‘free speech crisis’ has been a rightwing myth for 50 years | Evan Smith


----------



## splonkydoo (Feb 17, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> This bloke  Evan Smith@evanishistory has written a lot about no platform and its history in universities. He's got a book, here's a shorter version  pdf No Platform: A History of Anti-Fascism, Universities and the Limits of Free Speech and a recent article ( excuse the Guardian link)  The university ‘free speech crisis’ has been a rightwing myth for 50 years | Evan Smith



That first article is really good. I've often shared it to left and right-wing people alike, who abuse the notion of no platform either in a minimal or maximal sense.


----------



## BigMoaner (Feb 17, 2021)

There is a whole cess pit of "anti-woke" twats in a America - peterson, Harris, and the rest. They claim to be silenced but make about 100k a month off of their youtube accounts. Caught in a perpetual victim mindset whilst raking in far more money than any left wing public intellectual. There's a big difference between "being silenced" and just seen for what they are: empty vessels and 9 times out of 10, grifters.  Maybe if they actually produced new research and wrote half meaningful books, they might get more invites at Unis etc. But they can't do that because producing stuff of value will mean they will loose their audience by about 90%. So easier to man cry over feminism or something. 

The grift is paying mortgages for mansions in LA.


----------



## BigMoaner (Feb 17, 2021)

and yes, scratch beneath the surface of this stuff, and there's "race science" lurking away. 

where as once these sorts of wankers were confined to rooms above pubs and the odd book in a library, they are now being watched by millions.

the world is great at the moment, isn't it?


----------



## danny la rouge (Feb 17, 2021)

Sasaferrato said:


> Anyone who has been prevented from speaking.


Smokeandsteam posted this on a better thread the other day. It’s worth reposting: THE WOKE AND THE UNWOKE

Have a read, Sas.  There are many of us who are critical of both sides of this ridiculous, posturing culture war.  Their similarities would be hilarious, if they weren’t so damaging.


----------



## dylanredefined (Feb 17, 2021)

DotCommunist said:


> free speech means you have to listen to any speaker wherever they are without heckling or shouting them down or standing outside slagging them and their ideas off. Those are the rules now, and they will I'm sure be applied equally to all viewpoints and not just the cunts desperate to mainstream race science again.


  Letting them speak so everyone knows what cockwombles they are. Then destroying their arguments seems better than giving them publicity of victimhood. Aoart from Nazis obviously.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Feb 17, 2021)

Students forbidden from disagreeing with free speech under threat of huge fines, says Minister for Obliterated Self-Awareness
					

Gavin Williamson, the Minister for Kafakaesque Face-Palming Bullshit, has announced the drafting of a bill to protect free speech by ensuring that universities will be slapped with massive fines if they don’t hand over their lecture halls to bigoted twats with no expertise whatsoever.




					newsthump.com


----------



## two sheds (Feb 17, 2021)

It is effectively what Facebook and Twitter have done - every fucking nazi and anti-vaxxer has a platform and there's no censorship (i.e. modding), and hasn't that done well for society.


----------



## danny la rouge (Feb 17, 2021)

dylanredefined said:


> Letting them speak so everyone knows what cockwombles they are. Then destroying their arguments seems better than giving them publicity of victimhood. Aoart from Nazis obviously.


I believe in free speech and free expression.  But there is a range of things that people seem to mean by that. To the right, it seems to mean: bigots get to say whatever they want where ever they want, whenever they want, and there must be no reply.

To me, free speech means not only the speaker has it. The listeners have it too. Telling a bigot they’re full of shit is not removing their freedom to speak; it’s exercising mine.

Furthermore, if the bigot were to walk into a synagog and expect to be able to explain why Jews are behind all that’s wrong with society, then they are sadly mistaken if they think they will not be, let’s say, forcibly ejected.  Freedom to speak does not mean there will be no consequence to your words. 

So that is within communities.  Free speech should expect the free speech of others, and the free expression from others, including anger and other consequences.  A community under attack from hatred, for example, can be expected to respond, not just sit there letting the speakers “make them self look ridiculous”.

However, as ever, we have an entity we call the state where the power of the ruling hegemony resides.  If _that_ gets to decide who can speak and who cannot (as opposed to individual clubs, organisations, places of worship), then we are in very different territory.  That is when we need to take great care that our own speech is not the next to be curtailed by the powers that be.


----------



## existentialist (Feb 17, 2021)

Sasaferrato said:


> Corbyn delivered an eighty seat majority to one of the worst PMs we have ever seen. Quite a feat.
> 
> And yet, some posters here feel that Corbyn's policies weren't radical enough.
> 
> I gather though that people who left the Labour party under Corbyn, have re-joined under Starmer. Swings and roundabouts.


TBF, _Corbyn _didn't do that. We did. The fact of the matter is that Corbyn, via popular support, represented something that a lot of people wanted - a Labour party that wasn't just Tory Lite, which is what we have had for too long now, and which looks to continue indefinitely.

If anyone gave us a Tory 80 seat majority, it was the loud voices of the right wing press who set out to monster Corbyn at every turn. I'd lay a fairly hefty slice of blame at the door of the Board of Deputies of British Jews, too, who have not exactly been subtle in conflating Corbyn's not-unreasonable objections to the behaviour of Israel with straight-up-and-down antisemitism. This government got in on lies and unachievable promises, and the press let them. And, of course, the parliamentary Labour party didn't exactly help themselves - I think they reached a point where they chose to "throw" an election rather than risk Corbyn being in charge.

Add to that the appalling overselling of Brexit, with some pretty cynical political chicanery, and which persuaded far more people to vote Tory in the last election. Now, we're seeing how empty those promises were. So there's another reason for that majority - lies. Blatant, barefaced, cynical ones.

A simplistic view, perhaps, to those who take their politics more seriously, but perhaps not as simplistic as the notion that the reason we're in this clusterfuck now is solely the responsibility of Jeremy Corbyn.


----------



## chilango (Feb 17, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> I believe in free speech and free expression.  But there is a range of things that people seem to mean by that. To the right, it seems to mean: bigots get to say whatever they want where ever they want, whenever they want, and there must be no reply.
> 
> To me, free speech means not only the speaker has it. The listeners have it too. Telling a bigot they’re full of shit is not removing their freedom to speak; it’s exercising mine.
> 
> ...



Very well put Danny.

I'd only add that access to platforms is extremely unequal.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Feb 17, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> I believe in free speech and free expression.  But there is a range of things that people seem to mean by that. To the right, it seems to mean: bigots get to say whatever they want where ever they want, whenever they want, and there must be no reply.
> 
> To me, free speech means not only the speaker has it. The listeners have it too. Telling a bigot they’re full of shit is not removing their freedom to speak; it’s exercising mine.
> 
> ...



This is spot on, as is Danny’s reminder that a much better thread already exists to discuss this.

All I’d add is that we need to recognise that ‘the culture war’, in terms of political economy, acts as a useful and increasingly powerful field within the neoliberal project. All sides involved are seeking recognition within the established terms of liberal democratic capitalism. Some are seeking to preserve historical entitlements under the system, others for disparity correction under it. Movements which challenge the project itself increasingly fall away.

What we can confidently therefore say is that this is precisely the type of debate neo-liberalism is comfortable with because all sides accept that the debate must be confined within its parameters, and are effectively an appeal to it, thus further embedding it as the natural order.


----------



## danny la rouge (Feb 17, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> This is spot on, as is Danny’s reminder that a much better thread already exists to discuss this.
> 
> All I’d add is that we need to recognise that ‘the culture war’, in terms of political economy, acts as a useful and increasingly powerful field within the neoliberal project. All sides involved are seeking recognition within the established terms of liberal democratic capitalism. Some are seeking to preserve historical entitlements under the system, others for disparity correction under it. Movements which challenge the project itself increasingly fall away.
> 
> What we can confidently therefore say is that this is precisely the type of debate neo-liberalism is comfortable with because all sides accept that the debate must be confined within its parameters, and are effectively an appeal to it, thus further embedding it as the natural order.


Precisely.


----------



## BigMoaner (Feb 17, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> This is spot on, as is Danny’s reminder that a much better thread already exists to discuss this.
> 
> All I’d add is that we need to recognise that ‘the culture war’, in terms of political economy, acts as a useful and increasingly powerful field within the neoliberal project. All sides involved are seeking recognition within the established terms of liberal democratic capitalism. Some are seeking to preserve historical entitlements under the system, others for disparity correction under it. Movements which challenge the project itself increasingly fall away.
> 
> What we can confidently therefore say is that this is precisely the type of debate neo-liberalism is comfortable with because all sides accept that the debate must be confined within its parameters, and are effectively an appeal to it, thus further embedding it as the natural order.


Yes. It amazes me the mental and emotional investment some sacrifice in regards the culture war - literally eating away at their own health in hatred as they endlessly trawl the spittle online...all the way they are still being paid just enough to survive and are one missing pay check from losing everything. It is as you say a very convenient "war".


----------



## existentialist (Feb 17, 2021)

Sasaferrato said:


> A reading age of nine is an appalling reflection on those paid to educate our children.


No, Sass. It's an appalling reflection, yes - but I think it is a cheap shot to immediately assume it's the people doing the educating that are responsible.

We have endured 30 years of government tinkering with our education system, at the same time as the sector has been grievously under-supported, and then we had the whole debacle of Gove et al deciding to put the boot in, with the result that schools are struggling to recruit - and, more worryingly, retain - teachers. So, even if it _is_ the quality of teaching that is responsible for the low average reading age (it isn't), even *that* failure can be laid squarely at the Government's door...and particularly this one.

We could say the same about doctors and nurses, and the way the NHS has been used as a plaything and political football as it suits the present Government, while at the same time it has declared war on the very people who operate and support it.


----------



## dylanredefined (Feb 17, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> I believe in free speech and free expression.  But there is a range of things that people seem to mean by that. To the right, it seems to mean: bigots get to say whatever they want where ever they want, whenever they want, and there must be no reply.
> 
> To me, free speech means not only the speaker has it. The listeners have it too. Telling a bigot they’re full of shit is not removing their freedom to speak; it’s exercising mine.
> 
> ...


  Aren't universities supposed to be places of debate?


----------



## danny la rouge (Feb 17, 2021)

dylanredefined said:


> Aren't universities supposed to be places of debate?


I’m totally against debate in universities, so you’ve got me there.


----------



## Idris2002 (Feb 17, 2021)

dylanredefined said:


> Aren't universities supposed to be places of debate?


Not any more, and not for a long time!

MONEY MACHINE GO BRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR


----------



## stethoscope (Feb 17, 2021)

Idris2002 said:


> Not any more, and not for a long time!
> 
> MONEY MACHINE GO BRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR



Quite, both years of Tory and Labour administrations have effectively reduced HE to 'education services for paying customers',


----------



## SpookyFrank (Feb 17, 2021)

dylanredefined said:


> Aren't universities supposed to be places of debate?



Yawn.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Feb 17, 2021)

Sasaferrato said:


> Corbyn delivered an eighty seat majority to one of the worst PMs we have ever seen. Quite a feat.
> 
> And yet, some posters here feel that Corbyn's policies weren't radical enough.
> 
> I gather though that people who left the Labour party under Corbyn, have re-joined under Starmer. Swings and roundabouts.



So it's Corbyn's fault your tory chums are fucking this country to death?


----------



## Artaxerxes (Feb 17, 2021)

stethoscope said:


> Quite, both years of Tory and Labour administrations have effectively reduced HE to 'education services for paying customers',



Adult creche, not sure its even got much education value any more.


----------



## dylanredefined (Feb 17, 2021)

stethoscope said:


> Quite, both years of Tory and Labour administrations have effectively reduced HE to 'education services for paying customers',


 Another illusion crushed.


----------



## Idris2002 (Feb 17, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> So it's Corbyn's fault your tory chums are fucking this country to death?


history's greatest monster


----------



## stethoscope (Feb 17, 2021)

Cloo said:


> It's a totally manufactured culture war. I think there have probably been a few  overzealous incidents but it hardly amounts to a War on Free Speech



It is totally manufactured.

The whole 'trans-terf' 'war', has been absolutely hyped up in three years, with perpetrators on the right happily exploiting some honestly held concerns amongst some parts of the left and more broadly over both trans rights and women's rights, to the point where this now has entirely lost any perspective or reality to become a 'culture war'.

The right especially would have you believe that there is an ever-powerful 'trans cabal' actively setting out to harm and erode women's rights and this has seeped into the left. The reality is that the overwhelming voices in the media are and have always been anti-trans: whether it be going back to Burchill and Bindel in the Guardian, through to obsessive daily articles in the Mail, Times and the Telegraph and the wider right (Hartley-Brewer, Poulton, and numerous others), to the BBC, the New Stateman, the Morning Star, and even the Economist. Groups with dubious aims such as the 'LGB Alliance' and 'Fair Cop' become regularly quoted in the media as some sort of non-partisan commentator, who are quite happy to throw LGB people under a bus to attack trans rights. Some incidents have been allowed to utterly blow up to become evidence of this awful 'cancel culture' and 'attacks from freedom of speech' by 'trans activists'. Where certain groups who were just airing 'concerns' actively campaigned to successfully stop GRA reform but actually this isn't enough and then it's attacks on the GRA itself and any health care provision. Where even urbans will say one thing here whilst engaging in the 'culture war' on social media (I see ya!). And now its spiralled out of control where fear and misinformation has set in amongst the wider public conscious.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 17, 2021)

stethoscope said:


> It is totally manufactured.
> 
> The whole 'trans-terf' 'war', has been absolutely hyped up in three years, with perpetrators on the right happily exploiting some honestly held concerns amongst some parts of the left and more broadly over both trans rights and women's rights, to the point where this now has entirely lost any perspective or reality to become a 'culture war'.
> 
> The right especially would have you believe that there is an ever-powerful 'trans cabal' actively setting out to harm and erode women's rights and this has seeped into the left. The reality is that the overwhelming voices in the media are and have always been anti-trans: whether it be going back to Burchill and Bindel in the Guardian, through to obsessive daily articles in the Mail, Times and the Telegraph and the wider right (Hartley-Brewer, Poulton, and numerous others), to the BBC, the New Stateman, the Morning Star, and even the Economist. Groups with dubious aims such as the 'LGB Alliance' and 'Fair Cop' become regularly quoted in the media as some sort of non-partisan commentator, who are quite happy to throw LGB people under a bus to attack trans rights. Some incidents have been allowed to utterly blow up to become evidence of this awful 'cancel culture' and 'attacks from freedom of speech' by 'trans activists'. Where certain groups who were just airing 'concerns' actively campaigned to successfully stop GRA reform but actually this isn't enough and then it's attacks on the GRA itself and any health care provision. Where even urbans will say one thing here whilst engaging in the 'culture war' on social media (I see ya!). And now its spiralled out of control where fear and misinformation has set in amongst the wider public conscious.


Anyone who has read asterix and the secret agent could be forgiven for thinking Theresa May's government played a blinder by getting this issue to wreak havoc among groups on the left while it's done them no harm at all


----------



## Cloo (Feb 17, 2021)

stethoscope said:


> It is totally manufactured.
> 
> The whole 'trans-terf' 'war', has been absolutely hyped up in three years, with perpetrators on the right happily exploiting some honestly held concerns amongst some parts of the left and more broadly over both trans rights and women's rights, to the point where this now has entirely lost any perspective or reality to become a 'culture war'.
> 
> The right especially would have you believe that there is an ever-powerful 'trans cabal' actively setting out to harm and erode women's rights and this has seeped into the left. The reality is that the overwhelming voices in the media are and have always been anti-trans: whether it be going back to Burchill and Bindel in the Guardian, through to obsessive daily articles in the Mail, Times and the Telegraph and the wider right (Hartley-Brewer, Poulton, and numerous others), to the BBC, the New Stateman, the Morning Star, and even the Economist. Groups with dubious aims such as the 'LGB Alliance' and 'Fair Cop' become regularly quoted in the media as some sort of non-partisan commentator, who are quite happy to throw LGB people under a bus to attack trans rights. Some incidents have been allowed to utterly blow up to become evidence of this awful 'cancel culture' and 'attacks from freedom of speech' by 'trans activists'. Where certain groups who were just airing 'concerns' actively campaigned to successfully stop GRA reform but actually this isn't enough and then it's attacks on the GRA itself and any health care provision. Where even urbans will say one thing here whilst engaging in the 'culture war' on social media (I see ya!). And now its spiralled out of control where fear and misinformation has set in amongst the wider public conscious.


Yeah, that's the classic one, and it's played up like everyone in the whole country is up in arms about trans issues, whereas (IMO) it's the small cohort that is trans people and allies vs a small number of vociferous media transphobes or people even if not ostensibly transphobic, generally being unhelpful, and the vast majority of the population, in all likelihood, not knowing or caring about the issue, for good or for ill.


----------



## stethoscope (Feb 17, 2021)

Cloo said:


> Yeah, that's the classic one, and it's played up like everyone in the whole country is up in arms about trans issues, whereas (IMO) it's the small cohort that is trans people and allies vs a small number of vociferous media transphobes or people even if not ostensibly transphobic, generally being unhelpful, and the vast majority of the population, in all likelihood, not knowing or caring about the issue, for good or for ill.



Yep! Anyway, hope this finds you and yours well in these times, been ages! x


----------



## smokedout (Feb 17, 2021)

stethoscope said:


> Where certain groups who were just airing 'concerns' actively campaigned to successfully stop GRA reform but actually this isn't enough and then it's attacks on the GRA itself and any health care provision.



I think this in particular is a good example of how the culture war pushes people into identity based struggles.  The things that trans people need to be able to live freely, safely and with some dignity, such as healthcare and the most basic rights, are now under significant threat - and healthcare in particular was less than adequate to begin with.  And it's broadening out into attacks on people who refer to themselves as queer, sex workers, aspects of gay culture like drag, kink and anything which doesn't fit a narrow conservative view of sexuality and gender expression.  That's not something you can really ignore if you're one of those groups and with the left seemingly unconcerned or too timid to take a stance, because these attacks have been fronted by a splinter feminist groups, then people look for help where they can find it - whether that's liberal charities like Stonewall, private trans healthcare providers, corporate supporters or the more extreme ends of identity politics.  It's very difficult to prevent that, it's not like you can say hey, those involved in class politics have got your back because they evidently haven't in a lot of cases. 

So these groups get isolated in an increasingly bitter culture war, which is now a million miles away from legitimate feminist concerns and arguably is no longer a feminist led movement with everyone from Tories to pro-lifers to conspiracy theorists to actual fascists declaring themselves gender critical and ranting on about pomo queer theory plotters coming for their children.  This leads trans people, understandably as they are scared, to turn to anyone who might help, which increasingly is neoliberal sharks and opportunists.  And the struggles working class trans/queer/whatever people face is made invisible despite it being most of us, because the middle classes whose interests are solely based on identity dominate any resistance and so it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy - trans people are all identity obsessed wokesters from the middle classes who aren't interested in class struggle.  It's fucking hard to navigate when Innocent Smoothies have been more outspoken in supporting trans people than much of the left.  As posters have alluded to earlier, it's a trap, but I don't know how to get out of it and now it's been employed so successfully against trans people I doubt it will end there.


----------



## stethoscope (Feb 17, 2021)

Word!


----------



## killer b (Feb 18, 2021)

this from the Times education editor yesterday:



The report she refers to is here: https://wonkhe.com/wp-content/wonkhe-uploads/2021/01/Taking-the-debate-forward-Feb-2021.pdf


----------



## killer b (Feb 18, 2021)

Also this thread, which demonstrates one of the key reports the government is using to support their attack plays fast and loose with reality:



(as an aside, I came across this cute little exchange between two former collaborators and thought PolSci watchers on here might enjoy it.)


----------



## teqniq (Feb 18, 2021)

This has made me laugh this morning:



e2a

also this:


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Feb 18, 2021)

It's not the admitting that's toxic, it's the being.


----------



## hitmouse (Feb 18, 2021)

Brainaddict said:


> While I don't think many meaningful cases will reach court, I fear that a bunch of chancers will try to build careers in being dicks off the back of it. Get an insider to invite you to a university where you know you won't be welcome, which sparks protests against you, give the uni a choice of having loads of aggy protests against you, or cancelling and a court case. You win either way. Columns in the Daily Mail and regular spots on GB News and _kerching_.
> 
> What I'm hoping is the test case is a holocaust denier or supporter of man-boy love or something and the government ends up looking aligned with them...





killer b said:


> The report she refers to is here: https://wonkhe.com/wp-content/wonkhe-uploads/2021/01/Taking-the-debate-forward-Feb-2021.pdf


From that report: "Today NUS maintains six organisations on its “No Platform” list - Al-Muhajiroun, the British National Party, the English Defence League, Hizb-ut-Tahrir, the Muslim Public Affairs Committee UK and National Action." Really looking forward to the joint Gavin Williamson/Al-Muhajiroun/National Action press conference on defending free speech in HE now.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Feb 18, 2021)

teqniq said:


> This has made me laugh this morning:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I bet Allister Heath just loves to call people snowflakes.


----------



## Doodler (Feb 18, 2021)

The Tories might go for boosting funding for STEM subjects at the expense of the Arts and Humanities Research Council. They have probably wanted to do so for a long time and now they could claim that the poor state of public finances demands it.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Feb 18, 2021)

Doodler said:


> The Tories might go for boosting funding for STEM subjects at the expense of the Arts and Humanities Research Council.



Sounds like they’re on to a good idea there


----------



## Doodler (Feb 18, 2021)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> Sounds like they’re on to a good idea there



They've made noises along those lines ever since Thatcher. Grafting 'wokeness' into the reasoning would just be a cosmetic change.


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 19, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> From that report: "Today NUS maintains six organisations on its “No Platform” list - Al-Muhajiroun, the British National Party, the English Defence League, Hizb-ut-Tahrir, the Muslim Public Affairs Committee UK and National Action." Really looking forward to the joint Gavin Williamson/Al-Muhajiroun/National Action press conference on defending free speech in HE now.



are MPAC still around?


----------



## flypanam (Feb 19, 2021)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> Sounds like they’re on to a good idea there


STEM funding will be a good idea until it isn’t. After all most teaching isn’t done by STEM grads, with all the focus on STEM we will see a shortage of Humanities and Social Sciences in a decade with the usual conservative concern about students not knowing history.


----------



## Doodler (Feb 19, 2021)

flypanam said:


> STEM funding will be a good idea until it isn’t. After all most teaching isn’t done by STEM grads, with all the focus on STEM we will see a shortage of Humanities and Social Sciences in a decade with the usual conservative concern about students not knowing history.



The Tories wouldnt axe all funding for the arts and humanities. They could reduce it and justify doing so by cherry picking examples of the more woolly minded courses and research units that really are little more than a mini welfare state for middle class people who don't want to go into commerce or the traditional professions, and build them up into a general stereotype to attack publicly as a distraction. The same was done decades ago with Labour councils supposedly banning 'Baa baa black sheep' from schools etc.


----------



## Serge Forward (Feb 19, 2021)

> The same was done decades ago with Labour councils supposedly banning 'Baa baa black sheep' from schools etc.


Never happened.


----------



## Doodler (Feb 19, 2021)

Serge Forward said:


> Never happened.



That's what 'supposedly banning' implies. But anyway so what? Effective propaganda is a mix of fact and fiction.


----------



## Serge Forward (Feb 19, 2021)

Yeah, the fact being, there was some weird stuff done in the name of anti-racism within some of the more (as we used to say) 'right on' boroughs. The fiction being, 'baa baa green sheep' was completely made up by journalists at either the Scum or the Daily Heil. After a few repetitions of the story, it was taken as fact by many


----------



## Doodler (Feb 19, 2021)

Serge Forward said:


> Yeah, the fact being, there was some weird stuff done in the name of anti-racism within some of the more (as we used to say) 'right on' boroughs. The fiction being, 'baa baa green sheep' was completely made up by journalists at either the Scum or the Daily Heil. After a few repetitions of the story, it was taken as fact by many



Exactly. They can't pull that one again with regards to councils so they'll need to search elsewhere. It will also be harder for them to broadcast such messages with the Sun newspaper being less Influential and as yet no UK equivalent of Fox News.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Feb 19, 2021)

Doodler said:


> and as yet no UK equivalent of Fox News.



give the new BBC director general a bit of time, he's only been in the job a few months...


----------



## hitmouse (Feb 19, 2021)

MadeInBedlam said:


> are MPAC still around?


Not sure, haven't really been following them.


----------



## two sheds (Feb 19, 2021)

Doodler said:


> Exactly. They can't pull that one again with regards to councils so they'll need to search elsewhere. It will also be harder for them to broadcast such messages with the Sun newspaper being less Influential and as yet no UK equivalent of Fox News.


Facebook and Twitter? Would spread like wildfire and be accepted as gospel I'd have thought.


----------



## wemakeyousoundb (Feb 19, 2021)

Doodler said:


> ... as yet no UK equivalent of Fox News.


isn't there one on the way though?


----------



## Doodler (Feb 19, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Facebook and Twitter? Would spread like wildfire and be accepted as gospel I'd have thought.



Yes it might well do if it was made entertaining and they could pull the propaganda trick of creating an enemy that is both ridiculous and threatening at the same time. The Tories do not seem to have made very effective use of social media to date. Conservative views are expressed by many on Twitter, Facebook but they are diffuse and unpredictable. Anything introduced to that world passes out of the originator's control immediately. Maybe the Tories would be happier relying on high-profile media fellow travellers like Julia Hartley-Brewer etc.


----------



## two sheds (Feb 19, 2021)

Indeed, Conservative party might not be able to do it though but they don't need to, there's enough people willing to make stuff up and spread it to troll the libs and lefties.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 19, 2021)

Doodler said:


> Yes it might well do if it was made entertaining and they could pull the propaganda trick of creating an enemy that is both ridiculous and threatening at the same time. The Tories do not seem to have made very effective use of social media to date. Conservative views are expressed by many on Twitter, Facebook but they are diffuse and unpredictable. Anything introduced to that world passes out of the originator's control immediately. Maybe the Tories would be happier relying on high-profile media fellow travellers like Julia Hartley-Brewer etc.


Any relative of fly-fishing author j.r. hartley?


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Feb 19, 2021)

In just the last week Nathan Robinson has been fired from the Guardian, and there have been concerted campaigns to prevent Ken Loach from speaking at Oxford University and get Professor David Miller fired from Bristol Uni. All three cancelations have been on the basis of criticisms of Israel and Zionism. I haven't checked, but I'm almost 100% sure that nobody who bangs on about cancel culture will discuss any of these. Why? Because the 'victims' of the cancel campaigns are left-wingers, so it wouldn't fit the agenda of the 'anti-woke' cunts.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Mar 22, 2021)

UK's midlife crisis continues apace.


----------



## marty21 (Mar 23, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> UK's midlife crisis continues apace.



Takes #flagshagging to the next level.


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Mar 23, 2021)

We're now living in one big brasseye sketch:


----------



## two sheds (Mar 23, 2021)

And how many union jacks does the MP twat have behind him? Eh? Eh? None. That's how many. Such callous disregard for our wonderful flag should mean he resigns  

What a cunt


----------



## Boris Sprinkler (Mar 23, 2021)

Dear James Wild.
If i had a union flag right now. Id take a shit on it.
And if i had a twitter / tiktok I would post a video of it.
And watch how quickly I would get cancelled.


Fuck iambic pentameter and fuck flags. More trouble than they are worth.
" People have died for this flag?  " yeah, do you see the problem? Shit eating gibbon.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Mar 23, 2021)

New British citizenship test leaked:

You, a locked room, a Union Flag, a box of kleenex, 15 minutes time limit.


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Mar 23, 2021)

Doesn't this show how weak they know they are? Wanking on about flags in a desperate and transparent attempt to deflect from their ineptitude. Clamping down on protests because they know people are going to really be angry when they see the full shit show of a Brexit mess and a collapsed economy when furlough ends.

I used to think Boris Johnson wouldn't last this parliament but now I'm not even sure the government will because this flag wanking is pathetic.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Mar 23, 2021)

Doctor Carrot said:


> Doesn't this show how weak they know they are? Wanking on about flags in a desperate and transparent attempt to deflect from their ineptitude. Clamping down on protests because they know people are going to really be angry when they see the full shit show of a Brexit mess and a collapsed economy when furlough ends.
> 
> I used to think Boris Johnson wouldn't last this parliament but now I'm not even sure the government will because this flag wanking is pathetic.



Absolutely, I keep trying to explain to some that a government that feels safe and secure doesn't do these things. It speaks of a definite sense of "we don't have much time" that they keep pushing through and doubling down on the culture stuff. A fear that the roof is about to cave in unless they can really drum up a sense of Us vs Them and clad any dissent at all as treachery.


----------



## 8ball (Mar 23, 2021)

Doctor Carrot said:


> ...people are going to really be angry when they see the full shit show of a Brexit mess and a collapsed economy when furlough ends.
> 
> I used to think Boris Johnson wouldn't last this parliament but now I'm not even sure the government will because this flag wanking is pathetic.



This is the most optimistic thing I’ve read in some time.  More likely we’ll have “clap for the economy” every Tuesday night and people will meekly return to the cud.


----------



## 8ball (Mar 23, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Absolutely, I keep trying to explain to some that a government that feels safe and secure doesn't do these things.



Although the fact that you have to explain it is suggestive of something.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Mar 23, 2021)

Flailing


----------



## killer b (Mar 23, 2021)

I'm not sure it really does show how weak they know they are tbh. Aggressive nationalist populist stances are used to shore up support long-term by governments all over the world. It's strategy, not desperation.


----------



## 8ball (Mar 23, 2021)

killer b said:


> I'm not sure it really does show how weak they know they are tbh. Aggressive nationalist populist stances are used to shore up support long-term by governments all over the world. It's strategy, not desperation.



Indeed it has the whiff of a Cummings about it.


----------



## mauvais (Mar 23, 2021)

Turns out there's no flags anywhere.

A thread:


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Mar 23, 2021)

killer b said:


> I'm not sure it really does show how weak they know they are tbh. Aggressive nationalist populist stances are used to shore up support long-term by governments all over the world. It's strategy, not desperation.



That would be true normally but in a post pandemic shit show? I'm not so sure.

It's certainly true populist nationalism rises in times of economic strife but if the populist nationalists are in power when that strife occurs I don't know how well that strategy works. It's the only tool in this government's box though so it's not surprising it's ramping up.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 23, 2021)

killer b said:


> I'm not sure it really does show how weak they know they are tbh. Aggressive nationalist populist stances are used to shore up support long-term by governments all over the world. It's strategy, not desperation.


The government's notion of long term is till a week on Tuesday. They're as weak as kaliber


----------



## Artaxerxes (Mar 23, 2021)

killer b said:


> I'm not sure it really does show how weak they know they are tbh. Aggressive nationalist populist stances are used to shore up support long-term by governments all over the world. It's strategy, not desperation.



Its usually a feature of dictatorships and authoriatrian governments who are inherently weak and obsessed with making sure only the right people are allowed to ask questions. 

The minute they stop enforcing it they collapse.


----------



## ska invita (Mar 23, 2021)

Doctor Carrot said:


>




re flags i think this will be a successful strategy for the tories
theres already a no excuses culture around wearing red poppies, if they can install the same pressure on flags, then it will stick. Labour capitulated immediately, I can imagine others doing so too.

The USA is the model of all UK politics now, from US style briefing rooms including spokesperson to "total market access" for the NHS, to incoming US style right-wing TV. Tory vision post-Brexit is replace EU with the US. Trade deal hit a bump with Trump, but other changes can continue as planned.



killer b said:


> I'm not sure it really does show how weak they know they are tbh. Aggressive nationalist populist stances are used to shore up support long-term by governments all over the world. It's strategy, not desperation.


totally, and every cunt in electoral politics is on board with it now (maybe rallying to a different flag though, but flag shagging all the same)


----------



## chilango (Mar 23, 2021)

Yes, the Government are in a very weak position.


Problem is everyone else's position is even weaker.


----------



## magneze (Mar 23, 2021)

I would think it's largely related to potential Scottish Independence, no?

It does signify weakness though. If there's a few years of flag hugging and then Scottish Independence then where does that leave the flag? With a bit missing, that's where. That's a massive weakness.


----------



## ska invita (Mar 23, 2021)

magneze said:


> I would think it's largely related to potential Scottish Independence, no?
> 
> It does signify weakness though. If there's a few years of flag hugging and then Scottish Independence then where does that leave the flag? With a bit missing, that's where. That's a massive weakness.



its much more than that, its allegiance to the state, its allegiance to a long list of perceived values that go with the flag - no deviation allowed


----------



## killer b (Mar 23, 2021)

mauvais said:


> Turns out there's no flags anywhere.
> 
> A thread:



it's funny momentarily, but pound to a piece of shit all those sites will be plastered with union flags next week


----------



## NoXion (Mar 23, 2021)

ska invita said:


> re flags i think this will be a successful strategy for the tories
> theres already a no excuses culture around wearing red poppies, if they can install the same pressure on flags, then it will stick. Labour capitulated immediately, I can imagine others doing so too.
> 
> The USA is the model of all UK politics now, from US style briefing rooms including spokesperson to "total market access" for the NHS, to incoming US style right-wing TV. Tory vision post-Brexit is replace EU with the US. Trade deal hit a bump with Trump, but other changes can continue as planned.
> ...



I've never felt pressured to wear a poppy.


----------



## ska invita (Mar 23, 2021)

NoXion said:


> I've never felt pressured to wear a poppy.


if you went on tv they would make you wear one


----------



## NoXion (Mar 23, 2021)

ska invita said:


> if you went on tv they would make you wear one



And if I refused?


----------



## NoXion (Mar 23, 2021)

Also who the fuck watches TV any more


----------



## ska invita (Mar 23, 2021)

NoXion said:


> I've never felt pressured to wear a poppy.











						Newsreader responds after wave of abuse for not wearing a poppy
					

Charlene White has opted against wearing a poppy while on television for several years now




					www.birminghammail.co.uk


----------



## ska invita (Mar 23, 2021)

you're missing the point - its about creating cultural norms and dominant narratives, of course its not a law


----------



## NoXion (Mar 23, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Newsreader responds after wave of abuse for not wearing a poppy
> 
> 
> Charlene White has opted against wearing a poppy while on television for several years now
> ...



I can't speak for them, but receiving that crap would just make me want to wear it even less.


----------



## NoXion (Mar 23, 2021)

People can break the norm. How about we help such folk stand up for themselves instead of just giving up?


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 23, 2021)

Jon Snows annual wearing of the white poppy. And people cry cos that NI footballer won't wear one, or something. Its become more... maybe less solemn? I don't remember people building full scale dioramas of the Somme in their front garden years back


----------



## two sheds (Mar 23, 2021)

NoXion said:


> And if I refused?


You'd be taken out and shot


----------



## marty21 (Mar 23, 2021)

In yet another victory for the woke warriors,  Clive Myrie has the Mastermind gig


----------



## BristolEcho (Mar 23, 2021)

DotCommunist said:


> Peter Snows annual wearing of the white poppy. And people cry cos that NI footballer won't wear one, or something. Its become more... maybe less solemn? I don't remember people building full scale dioramas of the Somme in their front garden years back



When I was in school late 90's early 2000's it was a minor event I'm pretty sure. The wars in the Gulf and the subsequent narrative that was built around Wooten Basset and war heros has massively contributed towards where we are now in my opinion. It then ties in nicely into the nationalist sentiments that many want to push.


----------



## ska invita (Mar 23, 2021)

In US schools kids pledge allegiance to the flag every morning. ("All states except California, Hawaii, Iowa, Vermont, and Wyoming require a regularly scheduled recitation of the pledge in public schools. California requires a "patriotic exercise" every day, which would be satisfied by the Pledge, but it is not enforced.")

...this would be a good next step for the Tories, pledging allegiance might be too much just yet, but force all schools and universities to fly a union jack. Any objectors are clearly cultural marxist infiltrators of the education system. Resulting shitstorm a perfectly polarising event. The Tories then win the vote to make the flags obligatory and another piece of territory is won and staked out within the cultural civil war. No incoming government would dare repeal.

Ive just made that up, but that's the dynamic we are in now, just a matter of how far it goes. They're on the BBCs case right now, but it won't end there.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Mar 23, 2021)

Sorry fir this but


----------



## not-bono-ever (Mar 23, 2021)

ska invita said:


> In US schools kids pledge allegiance to the flag every morning. ("All states except California, Hawaii, Iowa, Vermont, and Wyoming require a regularly scheduled recitation of the pledge in public schools. California requires a "patriotic exercise" every day, which would be satisfied by the Pledge, but it is not enforced.")
> 
> ...this would be a good next step for the Tories, pledging allegiance might be too much just yet, but force all schools and universities to fly a union jack. Any objectors are clearly cultural marxist infiltrators of the education system. Resulting shitstorm a perfectly polarising event. The Tories then win the vote to make the flags obligatory and another piece of territory is won and staked out within the cultural civil war. No incoming government would dare repeal.
> 
> Ive just made that up, but that's the dynamic we are in now, just a matter of how far it goes. They're on the BBCs case right now, but it won't end there.


.  


The youth I know at south London secondary schools would not stand for this and it would  be mercilessly and openly mocked. So let’s go for it


----------



## brogdale (Mar 23, 2021)

not-bono-ever said:


> Sorry fir this but
> 
> View attachment 259944


Has legs...


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Mar 23, 2021)

not-bono-ever said:


> .
> 
> 
> The youth I know at south London secondary schools would not stand for this and it would  be mercilessly and openly mocked. So let’s go for it



'Look at these scary Urban kids disrespecting the flag' would be a top result for them though wouldn't it - exactly the sort of stuff they'd want to provoke with it.


----------



## 8ball (Mar 23, 2021)

I'm a bit out of the news cycle.  Why all the sudden talk about flags?


----------



## not-bono-ever (Mar 23, 2021)

Flegs


----------



## 8ball (Mar 23, 2021)

not-bono-ever said:


> Flegs



These flegs?


----------



## ska invita (Mar 24, 2021)

ska invita said:


> In US schools kids pledge allegiance to the flag every morning. ("All states except California, Hawaii, Iowa, Vermont, and Wyoming require a regularly scheduled recitation of the pledge in public schools. California requires a "patriotic exercise" every day, which would be satisfied by the Pledge, but it is not enforced.")
> 
> ...this would be a good next step for the Tories, pledging allegiance might be too much just yet, but force all schools and universities to fly a union jack. Any objectors are clearly cultural marxist infiltrators of the education system. Resulting shitstorm a perfectly polarising event. The Tories then win the vote to make the flags obligatory and another piece of territory is won and staked out within the cultural civil war. No incoming government would dare repeal.
> 
> Ive just made that up, but that's the dynamic we are in now, just a matter of how far it goes. They're on the BBCs case right now, but it won't end there.


inching closer









						UK Government buildings to fly union flag every day
					

The culture secretary described the flag as "a proud reminder of our history and the ties that bind us".



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## marty21 (Mar 24, 2021)

8ball said:


> I'm a bit out of the news cycle.  Why all the sudden talk about flags?


There isn't enough of them or something


----------



## agricola (Mar 24, 2021)

BristolEcho said:


> When I was in school late 90's early 2000's it was a minor event I'm pretty sure. The wars in the Gulf and the subsequent narrative that was built around Wooten Basset and war heros has massively contributed towards where we are now in my opinion. It then ties in nicely into the nationalist sentiments that many want to push.



I was at school during the late 80s early 90s, and although there wasn't poppies everywhere for about a month like now we were semi-expected to go to the Remembrance Day service in either of the two towns nearest our village.   I don't remember them being at all jingoistic, just a few prayers, the reading of the names of the dead and then the last post.  Come to think of it, I don't even remember there being that many march-pasts, though there were a lot of WW2 veterans in attendance.  

It is much different now though, I don't wear a poppy (except on the day) and you can tell people notice you aren't wearing one.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 24, 2021)

8ball said:


> I'm a bit out of the news cycle.  Why all the sudden talk about flags?


----------



## killer b (Mar 24, 2021)

agricola said:


> It is much different now though, I don't wear a poppy (except on the day) and you can tell people notice you aren't wearing one.


really? I never wear a poppy, either on the day or any other time, and have neve been aware of anyone giving a fuck.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 24, 2021)

killer b said:


> really? I never wear a poppy, either on the day or any other time, and have neve been aware of anyone giving a fuck.


Same. Haven’t worn a poppy since I was about 11 or 12.  Don’t recall any comments or even glances.


----------



## marty21 (Mar 24, 2021)

agricola said:


> I was at school during the late 80s early 90s, and although there wasn't poppies everywhere for about a month like now we were semi-expected to go to the Remembrance Day service in either of the two towns nearest our village.   I don't remember them being at all jingoistic, just a few prayers, the reading of the names of the dead and then the last post.  Come to think of it, I don't even remember there being that many march-pasts, though there were a lot of WW2 veterans in attendance.
> 
> It is much different now though, I don't wear a poppy (except on the day) and you can tell people notice you aren't wearing one.


I left school in 1983 after my A levels,  I don't remember a lot of fuss about poppies . People wore them but there didn't seem to be much fuss about people not wearing them. But, there wasn't social media to have a fuss about it , so people might have been bothered by non poppy wearing people but you didn't hear about it . 

Coverage is sombre and respectful on the telly but not ukippy as it has become.


----------



## krtek a houby (Mar 24, 2021)

agricola said:


> I was at school during the late 80s early 90s, and although there wasn't poppies everywhere for about a month like now we were semi-expected to go to the Remembrance Day service in either of the two towns nearest our village.   I don't remember them being at all jingoistic, just a few prayers, the reading of the names of the dead and then the last post.  Come to think of it, I don't even remember there being that many march-pasts, though there were a lot of WW2 veterans in attendance.
> 
> It is much different now though, I don't wear a poppy (except on the day) and you can tell people notice you aren't wearing one.



Yeah, would get a few comments at work or in the local. They stopped when I suggested a compromise, would wear a poppy if they wore a lily at Easter.


----------



## agricola (Mar 24, 2021)

killer b said:


> really? I never wear a poppy, either on the day or any other time, and have neve been aware of anyone giving a fuck.



yes - going home especially (bear in mind this is a place where I got grief just for buying the Princess Diana issue of Private Eye)


----------



## marty21 (Mar 25, 2021)

agricola said:


> yes - going home especially (bear in mind this is a place where I got grief just for buying the Princess Diana issue of Private Eye)


The Diana stuff was madness , seem to be a mass psychosis , thousands going to Kensington , leaving flowers , crying and that. I didn't know anyone who actually did that but it seemed hundreds of thousands did.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Mar 25, 2021)

marty21 said:


> The Diana stuff was madness , seem to be a mass psychosis , thousands going to Kensington , leaving flowers , crying and that. I didn't know anyone who actually did that but it seemed hundreds of thousands did.



Guilt from lapping up the shit in the papers over the last decade


----------



## killer b (Mar 25, 2021)

agricola said:


> yes - going home especially (bear in mind this is a place where I got grief just for buying the Princess Diana issue of Private Eye)


I wonder whether there's big regional/local variations on this - I rarely see anyone under 50 with a poppy. Big Irish diaspora round here, which I'd expect may dampen enthusiasm for the british military?


----------



## brogdale (Mar 25, 2021)

killer b said:


> I wonder whether there's big regional/local variations on this - I rarely see anyone under 50 with a poppy. Big Irish diaspora round here, which I'd expect may dampen enthusiasm for the british military?


That post has reminded of the dirty looks we got on VE day last year when, instead of getting pissed in the road with the boomers, we went out, as normal, on our daily walk through the orgy of butchers' aprons.


----------



## Orang Utan (Mar 25, 2021)

marty21 said:


> There isn't enough of them or something


Brexit has left them in short supply as we don’t make our own


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 25, 2021)

killer b said:


> I wonder whether there's big regional/local variations on this - I rarely see anyone under 50 with a poppy. Big Irish diaspora round here, which I'd expect may dampen enthusiasm for the british military?


I've met and known loads of generation Irish in England who not only wear the poppy but have also served in the armed forces tbh.


----------



## killer b (Mar 25, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> I've met and known loads of generation Irish in England who not only wear the poppy but have also served in the armed forces tbh.


I'm sure - I was wondering if it had a dampening effect over a wider population though.


----------



## marty21 (Mar 25, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> I've met and known loads of generation Irish in England who not only wear the poppy but have also served in the armed forces tbh.


I'm generation Irish ,I guess,  have worn a poppy , but some years I don't,  not bothered by them. But am bothered by the annual poppy rage .


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 25, 2021)

killer b said:


> I'm sure - I was wondering if it had a dampening effect over a wider population though.


marty21    Be interesting to chart the rise and fall of poppy rage with key drivers tbh. Its certainly changed over the years .


----------



## marty21 (Mar 25, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> marty21    Be interesting to chart the rise and fall of poppy rage with key drivers tbh. Its certainly changed over the years .


I don't remember there being any until the country started getting ukippy maybe 10 years ago?


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 25, 2021)

marty21 said:


> I don't remember there being any until the country started getting ukippy maybe 10 years ago?


Iraq and Afghanistan wars maybe ? The ‘stories’ about Muslims banning people from shops wearing them and other disgraceful inventions ? Then a big media push .


----------



## marty21 (Mar 25, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Iraq and Afghanistan wars maybe ? The ‘stories’ about Muslims banning people from shops wearing them and other disgraceful inventions ? Then a big media push .


Possibly , there was some revival after the Falklands War , but that was understandable,  but it wasn't poppy wars.


----------



## Brainaddict (Mar 31, 2021)

I think today's report (people who believe institutional racism isn't real declare that Britain is blessedly free of institutional racism) is easy to mock for its transparent dishonesty, but it worries me because it seems like quite a naked exercise of power. They're saying "We're going to deny your experiences to your face because we can and there's fuck all you can do about it." I feel like these things are usually done a bit more subtly (yes, there is some minor institutional racism, here's a list of proposals that will make no difference and we won't implement them anyway) and the dropping of all subtlety marks a properly proto-fascist phase in their campaigning - not the first sign, but one of the strongest yet. Social media is now divided between people horrified at the report and people crowing that it's time to stop talking about racism all the time, which of course is what they wanted. Open the divide further, stir things up a bit more, get your crowd cheering on police violence against protesters at the same time. It's a bad place we're in, and I think it will get worse before it gets better.


----------



## Shechemite (Mar 31, 2021)

Liked but not liked


----------



## existentialist (Mar 31, 2021)

Brainaddict said:


> I think today's report (people who believe institutional racism isn't real declare that Britain is blessedly free of institutional racism) is easy to mock for its transparent dishonesty, but it worries me because it seems like quite a naked exercise of power. They're saying "We're going to deny your experiences to your face because we can and there's fuck all you can do about it." I feel like these things are usually done a bit more subtly (yes, there is some minor institutional racism, here's a list of proposals that will make no difference and we won't implement them anyway) and the dropping of all subtlety marks a properly proto-fascist phase in their campaigning - not the first sign, but one of the strongest yet. Social media is now divided between people horrified at the report and people crowing that it's time to stop talking about racism all the time, which of course is what they wanted. Open the divide further, stir things up a bit more, get your crowd cheering on police violence against protesters at the same time. It's a bad place we're in, and I think it will get worse before it gets better.


It's certainly going to become a more violent place before it gets better, if only because I can't see any peaceful way of deconstructing the edifice that has built up over the years, and isn't likely to deconstruct itself any time soon.


----------



## Shechemite (Mar 31, 2021)

I guess they’ll keep on using the cultural war conflict stuff to push through a ‘meritocratic’ (Ie ‘if you don’t like suffering inequality than you can get yourself educated and work harder’) agenda as a ‘fairer’ way of responding to inequality


----------



## Artaxerxes (Mar 31, 2021)

Brainaddict said:


> I think today's report (people who believe institutional racism isn't real declare that Britain is blessedly free of institutional racism) is easy to mock for its transparent dishonesty, but it worries me because it seems like quite a naked exercise of power. They're saying "We're going to deny your experiences to your face because we can and there's fuck all you can do about it." I feel like these things are usually done a bit more subtly (yes, there is some minor institutional racism, here's a list of proposals that will make no difference and we won't implement them anyway) and the dropping of all subtlety marks a properly proto-fascist phase in their campaigning - not the first sign, but one of the strongest yet. Social media is now divided between people horrified at the report and people crowing that it's time to stop talking about racism all the time, which of course is what they wanted. Open the divide further, stir things up a bit more, get your crowd cheering on police violence against protesters at the same time. It's a bad place we're in, and I think it will get worse before it gets better.



It's not racism it's just sparkling inequality.





Please do not ask why the sparkling inequality exists and trust in the free market to solve it.


----------



## two sheds (Mar 31, 2021)

Incredible - black and south asian people live in more areas of depredation so there's no racism involved.


----------



## Shechemite (Mar 31, 2021)

It’s all very aspirational, don’t be a victim bollocks.

solve health inequalities by ‘taking charge’ of your health.


----------



## Shechemite (Mar 31, 2021)

Same vein as Liz Truss’s mental down with Foucault speech


----------



## eatmorecheese (Mar 31, 2021)

So, to summarise:

_Suck it up and get on with it.

What are you compaining about?

Don't fall into a victim mentality.

Slavery had a positive transformative effect. _(I mean, _Christ _sake).

None of this is a surprise. Tony Sewell was probably always going to come to these conclusions.

What a steaming pile of horseshit. As Brainaddict said, it's a big 'fuck you'.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Mar 31, 2021)

MadeInBedlam said:


> I guess they’ll keep on using the cultural war conflict stuff to push through a ‘meritocratic’ (Ie ‘if you don’t like suffering inequality than you can get yourself educated and work harder’) agenda as a ‘fairer’ way of responding to inequality



That's exactly what the report recommends. Foisting a lot of recommendation on uni and schools


----------



## existentialist (Mar 31, 2021)

eatmorecheese said:


> So, to summarise:
> 
> _Suck it up and get on with it.
> 
> ...


It's probably an inappropriate comparison, but all this "slavery did you OK" stuff smacks very much of the kind of rape culture thinking that says "women enjoy it, really".


----------



## chilango (Mar 31, 2021)

MadeInBedlam said:


> I guess they’ll keep on using the cultural war conflict stuff to push through a ‘meritocratic’ (Ie ‘if you don’t like suffering inequality than you can get yourself educated and work harder’) agenda as a ‘fairer’ way of responding to inequality



Difficult to pull that off when social mobility is visibly decreasing though.


----------



## Shechemite (Mar 31, 2021)

Difficult for government or for actual human beings?


----------



## Brainaddict (Mar 31, 2021)

chilango said:


> Difficult to pull that off when social mobility is visibly decreasing though.


But that sort of policy is designed to appeal to white people, not black people, surely? So what is actually happening to black people is besides the point.


----------



## Shechemite (Mar 31, 2021)

Oh there’s plenty of minority ethnic ‘work ethic’ types


----------



## Artaxerxes (Mar 31, 2021)

existentialist said:


> It's probably an inappropriate comparison, but all this "slavery did you OK" stuff smacks very much of the kind of rape culture thinking that says "women enjoy it, really".



It's the same strand of thought as "well we built railways in India so really we did them a solid"

Also very keen to ignore the global exploitation of developing economies and migrants within last 50 years


----------



## Shechemite (Mar 31, 2021)

We’re going to end up with some CANZUK civilisation state based on the British values of nicking stuff and bulshitting. And merit.

like oceana/airstrip 1, but shitter


----------



## Border Reiver (Mar 31, 2021)

Sasaferrato said:


> I absolutely agree on the government with regard to refusing to let people speak.
> 
> It is absolutely unconscionable that politics of one stripe is encouraged, whilst opposing political view is silenced.
> 
> ...


Poe's Law suggests that posts like the above cannot be understood as true belief or satire merely on its contents.


----------



## CNT36 (Mar 31, 2021)

Sasaferrato said:


> I find the 'cult' of almost worshipping the fallen a bit disquieting.



Why don't you go and fuck yourself you ignorant shit stirring cunt?


----------



## A380 (Mar 31, 2021)

MadeInBedlam said:


> We’re going to end up with some CANZUK civilisation state based on the British values of nicking stuff and bulshitting. And merit.
> 
> like oceana/airstrip 1, but shitter


I wouldn’t mind the CANNZ bit, but whilst we might keep five eyes I fear this government wants a country that’s a cross between Florida/Alamabama and Queensland, with a dash of the UAE...


----------



## Artaxerxes (Apr 14, 2021)

__





						Ministers veto reappointment of two women to Channel 4 board | Channel 4 | The Guardian
					

Decision not to renew Uzma Hasan and Fru Hazlitt was made against advice of Channel 4 and Ofcom




					amp.theguardian.com


----------



## ska invita (May 1, 2021)

interesting story this:

"*Charles Dunstone quit museum post over government ‘culture war’            *
Greenwich dispute the latest in campaign by ministers to appoint allies at top of institutions"




__





						Subscribe to read | Financial Times
					

News, analysis and comment from the Financial Times, the worldʼs leading global business publication




					www.ft.com
				





> One of Britain’s best-known entrepreneurs has resigned as chair of a prestigious museum group in protest at ministers purging his board as part of a culture war being waged by the government. Sir Charles Dunstone, the billionaire founder of Carphone Warehouse, quit as chair of the Royal Museums Greenwich after the government refused to reappoint a trustee whose academic work advocates “decolonising” the curriculum, according to several people familiar with the events.


i find it interesting because i went to the national maritime museum in greenwich....4 years ago now? ive lost track of time, might not be as long ago as that.... and it had an atlantic slave trade exhibit. what struck me was how shit it was - having read up on much of the reality it felt very watered down, and overall my experience of going to the museum left a bad pro- imperial taste in my mouth (though i am a SJW snowflake of course).

So its interesting to me that what is there already is deemed a step too far by the tories. It will be interesting to see if that exhibit survives.


BTW my favourite thing in the museum is the collection of carved figureheads off the front off old ships


----------



## Artaxerxes (May 16, 2021)

"Museums must be independent but not independent"

Have the feeling Fred Dibnah wouldn't end up as a trustee under this scheme but we'll see.


----------



## Dogsauce (May 17, 2021)

Latest bullshit along these lines: Network Rail is to gain more powers as part of changes to how the railways are organised, becoming more like buses in London, operated by private sector but with fares/routes etc. determined by the national body. Not in itself a bad thing compared to what we have now. However, as part of these changes it is to be rebranded as ‘*Great British Railways’*. 

Suspect this is also an attempt to shoot Labour’s fox on rail nationalisation, just by renaming it and throwing a few flags on the branding might be enough for some of the nostalgic older voters.


----------



## existentialist (May 17, 2021)

Dogsauce said:


> it is to be rebranded as ‘*Great British Railways’*.


Oh, for *fuck's* sake! 

ETA: if that comes in, I'm just going to call it "British Railways", and fuck 'em.


----------



## Artaxerxes (May 24, 2021)

This is some creepy shit.


----------



## teqniq (May 24, 2021)

One of the original swivel eyed loons, is Redwood.


----------



## Epona (May 25, 2021)

I sat through a very embarrassing session watching The Politics Show on BBC earlier whereby it was just someone representing the transgender community getting shot down over and over and talked over and basically belittled, I felt terrible for them and it was not in any way a fair interview - so much for balanced programming.


----------



## MickiQ (May 25, 2021)

existentialist said:


> Oh, for *fuck's* sake!
> 
> ETA: if that comes in, I'm just going to call it "British Railways", and fuck 'em.


or even just  British Rail


----------



## AmateurAgitator (May 25, 2021)

Epona said:


> I sat through a very embarrassing session watching The Politics Show on BBC earlier whereby it was just someone representing the transgender community getting shot down over and over and talked over and basically belittled, I felt terrible for them and it was not in any way a fair interview - so much for balanced programming.


The Politics Show on the BBC has always been awful.


----------



## NoXion (May 25, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> This is some creepy shit.




This is the same BBC that recently pissed viewers off with its mawkish fawning over the Royal Family, is it? Redwood is on another fucking planet.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 25, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> This is some creepy shit.



the last thing they want is to represent the whole nation.

the last thing the tories want them to do is to represent the whole nation.

i wonder what a breakdown by class of the viewing figures of bbc programmes would reveal about who watches them


----------



## hitmouse (May 25, 2021)

Have we had this yet?








						‘One Britain One Nation’ event at child's school sparks Scots parent's anger
					

A SCOTS parent living in Bradford has expressed concern that their young child is having to take part in “One Britain One Nation” (Obon) week at…




					www.thenational.scot
				






> A SCOTS parent living in Bradford has expressed concern that their young child is having to take part in “One Britain One Nation” (Obon) week at their primary school.
> 
> The week involves pupils dressing up in red, white and blue and singing an “anthem” called “One Britain One Dream”, which ends with the repeating lines “Strong Britain Great Nation”.


----------



## ska invita (May 25, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Have we had this yet?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


WTAF
Could do with more info on that....whose idea? where did this song come from? etc


----------



## two sheds (May 25, 2021)

Do they have to salute the flag and sing "America Britain the Free"?


----------



## hitmouse (May 25, 2021)

Did a search for that phrase, and found this:


			https://bso.bradford.gov.uk/userfiles/file/Communications/ALYSON/Clare%20Bussingham/OBON%20DAY%202021%20Brochure.pdf
		


(Have now saved that document in case it gets deleted.)


----------



## ska invita (May 25, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Did a search for that phrase, and found this:
> 
> 
> https://bso.bradford.gov.uk/userfiles/file/Communications/ALYSON/Clare%20Bussingham/OBON%20DAY%202021%20Brochure.pdf
> ...




this explains it




__





						CEO & Founder
					






					www.onebritainonenation.com
				




In his professional capacity he was a senior police officer in the rank of Inspector with the West Yorkshire Police. In over two decades of police service, he has gained much experience in working with people from all backgrounds. In 2006 he was nominated to lead the most challenging and sensitive area of Manningham in Bradford. In 1995 and 2001 this area saw riots which were described as the worst disorder ever witnessed in mainland Britain.

Within 18 months of taking up the challenge Kash Singh, in his capacity as the lead inspector, personally engaged and addressed 13500 people. His efforts were successful – Manningham became one of the lowest crime rate areas in the Bradford District. This work won him the West Yorkshire Police Oscar, the Criminal Justice Award and a third position at a national competition in the country for outstanding police work.

It can be said with confidence that Kash Singh wore the Queen’s uniform with immense pride and was seen as a very capable and well respected police officer. When he left the force in July 2012 his Chief Constable described his conduct for his loyal and dedicated service as “Exemplary”.

His experience as the Chair and founder of the British Indian Association and his high profile career with the police service has gained much respect and admiration. Today he is seen as an iconic role model in the community.

It is Kash Singh’s desire to utilise all his experience and contacts to dedicate his life to a cause that is bigger than himself. He has a personal desire to put back into the country that has given him so much and feels proud to dedicate his role as the Chief Executive of OBON to Her Majesty and the people of this Nation.


----------



## hitmouse (May 25, 2021)

I don't really know heraldry and that stuff that well, but is the lion even a "Britain" thing as opposed to a specifically England one? Not seeing many dragons and unicorns in that brochure, anyway.


----------



## killer b (May 25, 2021)

Seems to be a weird vanity project of an ex-copper


----------



## two sheds (May 25, 2021)

Anthem on page 6

eta: beaten to it


----------



## Nikkormat (May 25, 2021)

Deleted as it's already been posted above.


----------



## ska invita (May 25, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> I don't really know heraldry and that stuff that well, but is the lion even a "Britain" thing as opposed to a specifically England one? Not seeing many dragons and unicorns in that brochure, anyway.


Whats the difference?


----------



## killer b (May 25, 2021)

I think this is hamfisted multiculturalism rather than conservative cultural campaigning tbh


----------



## Artaxerxes (May 25, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Have we had this yet?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Certainly not the British values I grew up with. 

Lets get back to patriotism being something slightly shameful foreigners did.


----------



## ska invita (May 25, 2021)

Strong Britain, Great Naaation, Strong Britain, Great Naaation, Strong Britain, Great Naaation, Strong Britain, Great Naaation, Strong Britain, Great Naaation,
🧟‍♂️🧟‍♀️🧟‍♂️🧟‍♀️🧟‍♂️🧟‍♀️🧟‍♂️
 inspired lyrics


----------



## hitmouse (May 25, 2021)

I mean, at the very least it's what hamfisted multiculturalism in an environment deeply shaped by CCC looks like, right? Clumsy multiculturalism's been around for a while, but I don't quite think it was always _that_ draped in flags and poppies, right?


----------



## DotCommunist (May 25, 2021)

At least the song doesn't mention joy at any point, cos that would really get my radar going.


----------



## hitmouse (May 25, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Strong Britain, Great Naaation, Strong Britain, Great Naaation, Strong Britain, Great Naaation, Strong Britain, Great Naaation, Strong Britain, Great Naaation,
> 🧟‍♂️🧟‍♀️🧟‍♂️🧟‍♀️🧟‍♂️🧟‍♀️🧟‍♂️
> inspired lyrics


I mean, knowing it was written by primary school children makes slightly more sense, but... they could have maybe avoided this problem by simply not getting small children to write hymns to nationalism in the first place?


----------



## ska invita (May 25, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> I mean, knowing it was written by primary school children makes slightly more sense, but... they could have maybe avoided this problem by simply not getting small children to write hymns to nationalism in the first place?


i missed that bit
hey copper, leave them kids alone

(teacher blatantly wrote it)


----------



## killer b (May 25, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> I mean, at the very least it's what hamfisted multiculturalism in an environment deeply shaped by CCC looks like, right? Clumsy multiculturalism's been around for a while, but I don't quite think it was always _that_ draped in flags and poppies, right?


I dunno, it feels a bit madder than that.


----------



## hitmouse (May 25, 2021)

Oh, certainly not disputing that it's mad.


----------



## killer b (May 25, 2021)

ska invita said:


> (teacher blatantly wrote it)


I don't think so. This guy doesn't need any help from teachers.


----------



## ska invita (May 25, 2021)

killer b said:


> I don't think so. This guy doesn't need any help from teachers.
> 
> View attachment 270176


are you calling a policeman a liar?


----------



## ska invita (May 25, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> I mean, at the very least it's what hamfisted multiculturalism in an environment deeply shaped by CCC looks like, right? Clumsy multiculturalism's been around for a while, but I don't quite think it was always _that_ draped in flags and poppies, right?


i think his musical influences are clear


----------



## killer b (May 25, 2021)

I had a drag through the OBON facebook page and it's got quite a lot of tory MPs appearing on it (although only 400-odd likes - my ambient tapes fb page has more than that), so I might revise my view a bit. Some sort of Tory astroturf thing pretending to be a community group?


----------



## Idris2002 (May 25, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Strong Britain, Great Naaation, Strong Britain, Great Naaation, Strong Britain, Great Naaation, Strong Britain, Great Naaation, Strong Britain, Great Naaation,
> 🧟‍♂️🧟‍♀️🧟‍♂️🧟‍♀️🧟‍♂️🧟‍♀️🧟‍♂️
> inspired lyrics


Everyone's in favour of saving Hitler's brain - but plant it in the body of a Great White Shark and suddenly you've gone too far.


----------



## ska invita (May 25, 2021)

killer b said:


> I had a drag through the OBON facebook page and it's got quite a lot of tory MPs appearing on it (although only 400-odd likes - my ambient tapes fb page has more than that), so I might revise my view a bit. Some sort of Tory astroturf thing pretending to be a community group?


all good friends down teh freemasons


----------



## Doodler (May 25, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Strong Britain, Great Naaation, Strong Britain, Great Naaation, Strong Britain, Great Naaation, Strong Britain, Great Naaation, Strong Britain, Great Naaation,
> 🧟‍♂️🧟‍♀️🧟‍♂️🧟‍♀️🧟‍♂️🧟‍♀️🧟‍♂️
> inspired lyrics



For some reason it brings this to mind


----------



## ska invita (May 25, 2021)

Doodler said:


> For some reason it brings this to mind



"you're shit! and you know you are! you're shit! and you know you are! " <now thats a proper anthem


----------



## Steel Icarus (May 25, 2021)

Great Britain, Strong Britain
Rainy Fascist Isle
Stupid Britain, Backward Britain
Vile, vile, vile


----------



## Pickman's model (May 25, 2021)

killer b said:


> I don't think so. This guy doesn't need any help from teachers.
> 
> View attachment 270176


fucking needs some help from barbers mind


----------



## ska invita (May 25, 2021)

Some Tories (of the Common Sense Group) put pen to paper



			https://www.thecommonsensegroup.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/Common-Sense.pdf


----------



## ska invita (May 25, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Some Tories (of the Common Sense Group) put pen to paper
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What is Wokeism and How Can it be Defeated?

concluding remarks:

The way to rip the mask away will require both Government action and courage.* Changes in the law will almost certainly be required *– for example, definitive amendments to the 2010 Equality Act as will new laws guaranteeing the freedom of speech.

*Government funded institutions should be required to promote British values, traditions and history. *‘Woke’ campaigners have long used judicial interpretation as a cover for the suppression of speech and the encouragement of a sense of victimisation and grievance culture. Removing that legal cover and re-stating the importance of democracy and the freedom of speech will be a big step in winning the battle.

The coup-de-grace will be delivered in openly and relentlessly debating the negative, divisive and historically ignorant canards of the ‘woke’ worldview. Conservative values present a far more appealing alternative – values of shared national identity, patriotism, family, faith, duty, freedom under the law, democracy and personal responsibility are as relevant now as they ever have been – Brexit and the Conservative landslide (especially the destruction of the ‘Red Wall’) of 2019 have emphatically demonstrated this. The destructive, totalitarian, divisive, negative and antidemocratic ‘woke’ ideology can be defeated. It just needs us to have the courage to stand up and fight it.

ETA: In another piece you'll neve guess what "The First Monolith of Woke " is ? The beebeecee!


----------



## Buddy Bradley (Jun 2, 2021)

Just had this through from the Good Law Project, posting here since it's one of the few threads where the LGB Alliance has been mentioned a few times:



> Charitable status is earned by those who serve the public good. Denigrating trans people, attacking those who speak for them, and campaigning to remove legal protections from them is the very opposite of a public good.
> 
> Whatever sweet nothings the so-called “LGB Alliance” whispered into the ear of the Charity Commission the truth was set out in a speech by LGB Alliance director Bev Jackson on 9 March 2020. She described their real goal as follows:
> 
> ...


----------



## ska invita (Jun 10, 2021)

ska invita said:


> interesting story this:
> 
> "*Charles Dunstone quit museum post over government ‘culture war’            *
> Greenwich dispute the latest in campaign by ministers to appoint allies at top of institutions"
> ...


since the above happened the Maritime Museum has a new exhibition






there are posters for it up across south london

now the timing might be coincidence but it seems from looking at the website the slave trade exhibition is out and painting of royals is in.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jun 10, 2021)

so the royals are all underwater maybe?


----------



## likesfish (Jun 10, 2021)

Ollie Robinson Twitter racism storm obscures ECB’s decades of inaction | Andy Bull
					

The current furore risks obscuring how the ECB has made similar promises to tackle racism for a couple of decades




					www.theguardian.com
				












						Fans slam cricket site Wisden for 'trawling through players' socials
					

Fans today turned on the 'Bible of Cricket' after its associated website Wisden.com unearthed the historical tweet from a current England star.




					www.dailymail.co.uk
				




Bringing up tweets by a 15-year-old when the Man is now 27 doesn't really help anything if he tweeted the stuff Last year fair enough or was in a position of responsibility at the time fair enough. But Expecting teenagers not to do dumb shit is ridiculous. Now calling them out at the time perfectly fair and asking why he wasn't called on his behaviour at the Time is perfectly fair. But to impose real-world penalties on someone for something they wrote 12 years ago that harmed nobody is ridiculous. Much like claiming you are a victim of British Imperialism today unless your Immortal the British Empire didn't hurt you. Now you could argue the British Empire and its policies had an effect on your life but your, not a direct victim


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Jun 10, 2021)

likesfish said:


> Ollie Robinson Twitter racism storm obscures ECB’s decades of inaction | Andy Bull
> 
> 
> The current furore risks obscuring how the ECB has made similar promises to tackle racism for a couple of decades
> ...



That's not quite accurate, there's two cases here. Olly Robinson is 27 now and made the tweets when he was about  19-20 I believe. The player who made the tweets at 15 hasn't been named (although it doesn't take much working out) and is in his early 20s now.


----------



## Serene (Jun 10, 2021)

Students at Magdalene Colledge Cambridge have been heard planning a coupe. They alledgely are wanting to replace a statue of Churchill there with one of Diane Abbott.


----------



## existentialist (Jun 10, 2021)

Serene said:


> Students at Magdalene Colledge Cambridge have been heard planning a coupe. They alledgely are wanting to replace a statue of Churchill there with one of Diane Abbott.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 10, 2021)

Serene said:


> Students at Magdalene Colledge Cambridge have been heard planning a coupe. They alledgely are wanting to replace a statue of Churchill there with one of Diane Abbott.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Jun 10, 2021)

Ex coppers have to something with their spare time - but why is is always cuntery?


----------



## Serene (Jun 10, 2021)

existentialist said:


>



😆 ce meme est tres drole.


----------



## Serene (Jun 10, 2021)

brogdale said:


> View attachment 272795



I am speculating. An Austin Allegro Coupe? 😄


----------



## hitmouse (Jun 10, 2021)

not-bono-ever said:


> Ex coppers have to something with their spare time - but why is is always cuntery?


Sticking with what they know best?


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jun 10, 2021)

ska invita said:


> since the above happened the Maritime Museum has a new exhibition
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Doubtful, Exhibitions take at least a year, more like two for the big ones at the BM with a lot of moving parts, to plan and are roadmapped several years ahead.


----------



## petee (Jun 15, 2021)

‘Held hostage’: How critical race theory moved from Fox News to school boards
					

In towns nationwide, well-connected conservative activists, and Fox News, have ramped up the tension in fights over race and equity in schools.




					www.nbcnews.com
				




“I was very naïve at the beginning of the year,” Porter said. “I thought it was a concerned parent who had taken it a little too far. I didn't understand this until recently, but these were tactics from national organizations to discredit the entire district.”
McBreairty became Maine’s chapter leader for No Left Turn last summer. He has since put up a billboard-size sign of a school board member’s face on his lawn and said it was surrounded by rat traps to prevent theft. “This is a war with the left,” McBreairty said in an email to NBC News, “and in war, tactics and strategy can become blurry.” The fight has only escalated, and it shows no sign of slowing.




A sign calling for the ouster of Jeff Porter, superintendent of schools, across from his district's administrative office in Cumberland, Maine. Shawn Patrick Ouellette


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jun 15, 2021)

Interesting long read from the FT 





__





						Subscribe to read | Financial Times
					

News, analysis and comment from the Financial Times, the worldʼs leading global business publication




					www.ft.com
				




Google the headline to bypass the paywall notice.


----------



## belboid (Jun 16, 2021)

another woke council banning words they find offensive.  









						Councillors banned from using the word 'Tories' in North Ayrshire meetings
					

A politician described it as 'derogatory' with Provost Ian Clarkson asking for the term not to be used.




					www.dailyrecord.co.uk


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Jun 16, 2021)

belboid said:


> another woke council banning words they find offensive.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



to avoid confusion, can we just call them cunts?


----------



## NoXion (Jun 16, 2021)

belboid said:


> another woke council banning words they find offensive.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Bloody woke liberals, with their politically correct policing of language....


----------



## brogdale (Jun 16, 2021)

belboid said:


> another woke council banning words they find offensive.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Round my way it's...er...what they call themselves


----------



## ska invita (Jun 16, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Round my way it's...er...what they call themselves
> 
> View attachment 273769


selfhating tories


----------



## teqniq (Jul 6, 2021)

What the actual fuck:









						Tories are worried that Gareth Southgate is 'becoming a tool of Deep Woke'
					

A Tory strategist told the FT that Southgate's essay on patriotism was "suspiciously well-written" - Politics




					www.thelondoneconomic.com


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 6, 2021)

teqniq said:


> What the actual fuck:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This is the article and colour me impressed - some political speech writers should pay attention (as indeed they have: Use Gareth Southgate’s tactics for culture war, pollster tells MPs )








						Dear England | By Gareth Southgate
					

Only around 1,200 players have represented England at senior men’s level. Ever.




					www.theplayerstribune.com


----------



## teqniq (Jul 6, 2021)

Yeah i saw it when it was first published, it's excellent. Luntz is also quoted in the London Economic article.


----------



## ska invita (Jul 6, 2021)

teqniq said:


> What the actual fuck:
> 
> 
> 
> ...








I'm deep woke now, this is *deep*, but I'm goin' *deeper*. I don't want no more money or nothin', but I'm goin' *deep*, *deep deep*, *deep woke*."


----------



## belboid (Jul 6, 2021)

teqniq said:


> What the actual fuck:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ooh, by Gideon Rachman.  Two of the most respected names in British politics


----------



## hitmouse (Jul 6, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Round my way it's...er...what they call themselves
> 
> View attachment 273769


They're reclaiming the t-slur.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jul 13, 2021)

Absolutely insane stuff.


----------



## ska invita (Jul 13, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Absolutely insane stuff.



it needs to be for them to stay in power


----------



## killer b (Jul 13, 2021)

He doesn't actually believe that. It's just a useful distraction from the actual issues of the age.


----------



## brogdale (Jul 13, 2021)

Their outriders can keep this up for as long as it takes to distract....


----------



## NoXion (Jul 13, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Their outriders can keep this up for as long as it takes to distract....




Who the hell are these people? Are we supposed to know them?


----------



## brogdale (Jul 13, 2021)

NoXion said:


> Who the hell are these people? Are we supposed to know them?


Economist/Telegraph journo etc.


----------



## magneze (Jul 13, 2021)

It may be back firing 









						Tory MP says party must change attitude towards taking the knee
					

Exclusive: Steve Baker says ‘this may be a decisive moment for our party’ amid backlash over abuse of footballers




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## ddraig (Jul 13, 2021)

magneze said:


> It may be back firing
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Desperate back pedalling that'll get em grief from a lot of their supporters 
Good tho! For the culture wars like


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jul 13, 2021)

ska invita said:


> selfhating tories



That's the only kind there is.


----------



## two sheds (Jul 13, 2021)

apart from otherhating tories


----------



## Elpenor (Jul 13, 2021)

When the “hard man of Brexit” speaks, the Tories listen


----------



## MrSki (Jul 13, 2021)

Good piece from Channel 4 News.


----------



## steveseagull (Jul 13, 2021)

The culture war seems to be taking one hell of a beating.

GB News going woke this afternoon must have been the final defeat.


----------



## ska invita (Jul 13, 2021)

steveseagull said:


> The culture war seems to be taking one hell of a beating.


There was a good gag i saw the other day that said
"ID like to congratulate Drugs for winning the War On Drugs".
Hopefully it will soon be a case of congratulating culture for winning the culture wars.


----------



## ska invita (Jul 13, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> That's the only kind there is.


TBH Tories tend to be utterly in love with themselves - psychopathic narcissism runs strong through the whole party.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Sep 8, 2021)




----------



## Orang Utan (Sep 8, 2021)

wokery from the NHS?


----------



## brogdale (Sep 8, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> wokery from the NHS?


Outriders were dutifully laying the groundwork on this last week...


----------



## Orang Utan (Sep 8, 2021)

that little deskwanker knows fuck all about nowt. I doubt he’s ever worked for any large organisation as he’d know that most organisations have departments or roles that promote diversity and equality


----------



## existentialist (Sep 8, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Outriders were dutifully laying the groundwork on this last week...



Cunt.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 8, 2021)

existentialist said:


> Cunt.


Professional one.


----------



## existentialist (Sep 8, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Professional one.


That makes it worse, right?


----------



## PTK (Sep 8, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Round my way it's...er...what they call themselves
> 
> View attachment 273769


"Tory" is derived  from an Irish word for "bandit". Perhaps it is  not derogatory if they use it themelves, but derogatory if others use it of them.


----------



## Orang Utan (Sep 8, 2021)

PTK said:


> "Tory" is derived  from an Irish word for "bandit". Perhaps it is  not derogatory if they use it themelves, but derogatory if others use it of them.


only if it is intended to be


----------



## PTK (Sep 8, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> only if it is intended to be


I prefer to use the word "Conservative", to refer to members of the party of that name, for it is not only in that party that Tories may be found.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 8, 2021)

PTK said:


> I prefer to use the word "Conservative", to refer to members of the party of that name, for it is not only in that party that Tories may be found.


What's wrong with vermin, scum or cunts?


----------



## Orang Utan (Sep 8, 2021)

PTK said:


> I prefer to use the word "Conservative", to refer to members of the party of that name, for it is not only in that party that Tories may be found.


it’s the other way round surely? 

Conservative member/supporter = hateful bastard Tory

conservative - doesn’t welcome systemic change - not necessarily a horrible cunt


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 8, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Outriders were dutifully laying the groundwork on this last week...




The master bait Tory.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Sep 8, 2021)

brogdale said:


> What's wrong with vermin, scum or cunts?



To expand on what I said on another thread, not all vermin, scum or cunts are tories.  sometimes you need to be specific...


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Sep 9, 2021)

Queen supports Black Lives Matter, says senior royal representative
					

Sir Ken Olisa, first black Lord-Lieutenant for London, reveals he has talked about racism with royal household




					www.theguardian.com
				




LMFAO!


----------



## Artaxerxes (Sep 9, 2021)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Queen supports Black Lives Matter, says senior royal representative
> 
> 
> Sir Ken Olisa, first black Lord-Lieutenant for London, reveals he has talked about racism with royal household
> ...












						'No place to hide': Buckingham Palace admits it needs to do more on staff diversity
					

The royal finance report says in early 2020 the diversity strategy was actively changed to emphasise the importance of inclusion.




					news.sky.com
				




Sure.


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 10, 2021)

If she _really_ does, perhaps there should be reparations paid to all the black nations from which the Empire stole from. And maybe (if there must be a monarchy) step down and let someone from said nations do the job.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Sep 10, 2021)

Daily Mail comments section has gone full republican lol:



> Politically correct bandwagon jumping to try and recoup much lost ground is not the way for the RF to go and whoever advised them to do so was very wrong. The RF are really starting to lose their way.





> We need a referendum. Republic now. I am sick and tired of this vi1e family





> Who would defend Buckingham palace if they defunded the police????





> George flyod, your kidding me, that the palace has even mentioned that mans name indicates to me the palace has gone woke and needs to be dismantled, the institution is over.





> Defund the Monarchy!





> That family have just lost my support. Time for them to go.





> So now the Queen's a Marxist.





> If this is true, the Queen has definitely lost her marbles and the monarchy needs to go





> Bye bye queen and the rest of the hangers on.





> Time to call time on this mafia family. A bunch of stuck up brats who do not hold the country's interest at heat.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Sep 12, 2021)

Dowdens got bored with neutering museums and university lecturers, time to ensure charity is non-political


----------



## MrSki (Sep 12, 2021)

Oops


----------



## MrSki (Sep 12, 2021)

Oops x2


----------



## MrSki (Sep 12, 2021)

Oops x3


----------



## MrSki (Sep 12, 2021)

Oops x4


----------



## MrSki (Sep 12, 2021)

Sorry for the last few posts. You might have realised they are on the wrong thread.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Sep 12, 2021)

The quantity is quite impressive


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 12, 2021)

MrSki said:


> Sorry for the last few posts. You might have realised they are on the wrong thread.



War is hell


----------



## Ax^ (Sep 12, 2021)

MrSki said:


> Sorry for the last few posts. You might have realised they are on the wrong thread.



not just me who does that from time to time ehh


----------



## stavros (Sep 12, 2021)

MrSki said:


> Sorry for the last few posts. You might have realised they are on the wrong thread.


Don't apologise; that's what the PC Brigade want.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Sep 12, 2021)

stavros said:


> Don't apologise; that's what the PC Brigade want.



and have we asked mac users what they want?


----------



## existentialist (Sep 12, 2021)

Puddy_Tat said:


> and have we asked mac users what they want?


Fuck 'em.


----------



## teqniq (Sep 17, 2021)

#ToryScum









						Legal challenge launched over ‘anti-woke’ agenda of Charity Commission
					

Exclusive: Good Law Project says ministers trying to ensure watchdog’s new chair will follow Tory policy




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Raheem (Sep 19, 2021)

!!!@???!

Oxbridge student groups to be exempt from free speech law


----------



## Artaxerxes (Oct 11, 2021)

Christ. 



> Following a political row after the speech, she lost her job. But in 2014, she founded the Michaela free school close to Wembley stadium in north-west London, which has a “no excuses” behaviour policy. Pupils were given demerits or detention for forgetting to bring a pencil or pen, or for talking in corridors between lessons.


----------



## Buddy Bradley (Oct 11, 2021)

Talking? In a school? What is the world coming to?


----------



## Cloo (Oct 11, 2021)

It's struck me that the whole 'culture war' thing in some way stems from the increasing unacceptability of pitting people against a whole group by virtue of their mere existence ('If you want a Coloured for your neighbour, vote Labour etc') so that now you have to pit people hard against one another idealistically. Of course, it is still way too acceptable to put the populace against certain groups, notably refugees, for example, but still the culture wars have their place.

This latest thing about bringing working from home onto the battlefield has a few classic Tory hallmarks. One, to speak to the less technology minded older lifelong Tory voter: 'Look at these lazy younger people who can't possibly doing any work - not like you, you worked hard all your life!', two to speak to the blue-collar Tory voter 'Look at these lazy elites not working hard like you do every day! We're for* hard workers like you' (*for exploiting) and making it look like they are on their side.


----------



## gosub (Oct 11, 2021)

Puddy_Tat said:


> and have we asked mac users what they want?


nobody ever asks Mac Users what they want.  They just queue up and say "take my money"


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Oct 12, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Christ.




Don't know much about this woman, but having very tight rules in schools is a good idea in my opinion. If your entire world outside school is chaotic, as is unfortunately the case for many people growing up in deprived situations, it can be quite comforting to have a school environment that is strict, and therefore predictable and safe.


----------



## Sweet FA (Oct 12, 2021)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> Don't know much about this woman, but having very tight rules in schools is a good idea in my opinion. If your entire world outside school is chaotic, as is unfortunately the case for many people growing up in deprived situations, it can be quite comforting to have a school environment that is strict, and therefore predictable and safe.


All schools are 'strict' in that they have rules - some ridiculous and petty; others less so. 

This woman's a dickhead though. 
_
The school’s 484 pupils study in an atmosphere of rigid austerity. ‘Demerits’ are given out for the slightest errors: forgetting a pen, slouching, turning to look out of a window during a lesson. Two demerits in one class equals a detention. “That’s another demerit… you’re too disorganized,” an English teacher tells one girl who’s struggled to find her textbook in the allocated ten seconds.

The school day is run with military precision. Everything, from lessons to lunch, is timed to the second, with the aid of large digital clocks placed in each room. Teachers often give their classes a timeframe in which to accomplish a task—“Ten seconds to take out your books and open them to page 32”—before counting down backwards. The transition between classes is also timed, and completely silent. A black line runs down the center of the corridor carpets, and children are expected to silently proceed either side to their next classes. Eagle-eyed teachers stand ready to reprimand those who walk too slowly. Every detail is designed to maximize the amount of learning time. In the student bathrooms, there are no mirrors, lest they distract the students.
_








						A Day at Britain's Strictest School
					

Teachers hand out detentions for slouching. But the kids are happy.




					time.com


----------



## chilango (Oct 12, 2021)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> Don't know much about this woman, but having very tight rules in schools is a good idea in my opinion. If your entire world outside school is chaotic, as is unfortunately the case for many people growing up in deprived situations, it can be quite comforting to have a school environment that is strict, and therefore predictable and safe.


Really dangerous argument this.


----------



## Serge Forward (Oct 12, 2021)

And really fucking stupid.


----------



## Orang Utan (Oct 12, 2021)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> Don't know much about this woman, but having very tight rules in schools is a good idea in my opinion. If your entire world outside school is chaotic, as is unfortunately the case for many people growing up in deprived situations, it can be quite comforting to have a school environment that is strict, and therefore predictable and safe.


not if you spend your time at home frightened of making the smallest of mistakes
or if you have ASD/ADHD or other problems that might make you fidget, forget, squirm, make noises, etc


----------



## gosub (Oct 12, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> If she _really_ does, perhaps there should be reparations paid to all the black nations from which the Empire stole from. And maybe (if there must be a monarchy) step down and let someone from said nations do the job.



Not really been following this whole woke thing, got enough trials and tribulations  of my own at mo. But these black nations you want to pay reperations to, is there much intersection with ones that had shed loads written off a a while back?


They were good days, was upto my elbows in the cmmisioning and reselling of private jets back then and the debt write defo contributed to the spike in demand

The number of people classed as currently enslaved was lower back then too.


----------



## Orang Utan (Oct 12, 2021)




----------



## existentialist (Oct 12, 2021)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> Don't know much about this woman, but having very tight rules in schools is a good idea in my opinion. If your entire world outside school is chaotic, as is unfortunately the case for many people growing up in deprived situations, it can be quite comforting to have a school environment that is strict, and therefore predictable and safe.


I prefer words like "boundaried". Setting realistic boundaries, and giving people the opportunity to learn to work within them is healthy, and safe. "Strict" too often implies arbitrary and punitive boundaries, and enforcing them by, er, force just creates discouragement in people who haven't ever learned what boundaries are.

All it does is to create the appearance - so much beloved of authoritarian types - of compliance, which is at best superficial. And (conveniently) marginalises and excludes those whose ability to conform is, for whatever reason, diminished.

It's a high-wastage system that doesn't even produce the result it's claiming for itself.


----------



## Orang Utan (Oct 12, 2021)

gosub said:


> Not really been following this whole woke thing...


Go back to sleep then


----------



## pogofish (Oct 12, 2021)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> Don't know much about this woman, but having very tight rules in schools is a good idea in my opinion. If your entire world outside school is chaotic, as is unfortunately the case for many people growing up in deprived situations, it can be quite comforting to have a school environment that is strict, and therefore predictable and safe.



Maybe you should read the long running thread here about her and her methods then?

Its back-up the top of the board right now.


----------



## ohmyliver (Oct 12, 2021)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> Don't know much about this woman, but having very tight rules in schools is a good idea in my opinion. If your entire world outside school is chaotic, as is unfortunately the case for many people growing up in deprived situations, it can be quite comforting to have a school environment that is strict, and therefore predictable and safe.


unless you're ADHD, or on the autism spectrum, in which very tight rules applied ridgidly and without flexibility, will, in all likelyhood, be very damaging.


----------



## existentialist (Oct 12, 2021)

ohmyliver said:


> unless you're ADHD, or on the autism spectrum, in which very tight rules applied ridgidly and without flexibility, will, in all likelyhood, be very damaging.


Or shy/abused/depressed/anxious/disabled/in poverty. Etc.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Oct 12, 2021)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> strict, and therefore predictable and safe.



What if that strict culture bans many of the forms of self-expression you might need to process your emotions and experiences? Is predictable necessarily safe or can a place be predictably stifling and awful?

As someone else mentioned, schools which have good behaviour without draconian bullshit also have extensive pastoral care systems. That's not a coincidence. The thing that should be predictable is not seating plans or uniforms or the format of lessons, what should be predictable is a constant level of genuine care and support. That's what troubled kids will be lacking elsewhere and that's what a good school should provide.


----------



## two sheds (Oct 12, 2021)

I went to a school in the 60s with excellent academic record and very strict rules on behaviour, hair length, school uniform and the like. Didn't stop me from getting bullied to fuck though.


----------



## Storm Fox (Oct 12, 2021)

existentialist said:


> Or shy/abused/depressed/anxious/disabled/in poverty. Etc.


Or regarding the no talking in the corridors, just any student. What other area of life socialising is prevented for hours at a time (When there are other people around) Prison or the Military perhaps (I don't know) but not everyday working life. 

The Tories: Students mustn't communicate throughout the day as it harms learning and productivity.
Also The Tories: People mustn't WFH as it prevents communication and harms creativity and productivity.


----------



## gosub (Oct 12, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> Go back to sleep then



Chance would be fine thing, borderline zopi dependant these days.

Out of that malarkey these days, (still doing the palliative) but those aircraft would be classed as knocking on a bit, ripe for trade in.


----------



## ohmyliver (Oct 12, 2021)

existentialist said:


> Or shy/abused/depressed/anxious/disabled/in poverty. Etc.


true,  that's not to say rules and discipline is 100% bad,  I mean I did the Oxford entrance exam at my large inner city comprehensive, and was interuppted mid exam by a boy who had some how escaped his class, who was very keen to find out what I was exactly doing and why, which made the exam harder than it should have been.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Oct 12, 2021)

existentialist said:


> I prefer words like "boundaried". Setting realistic boundaries, and giving people the opportunity to learn to work within them is healthy, and safe. "Strict" too often implies arbitrary and punitive boundaries, and enforcing them by, er, force just creates discouragement in people who haven't ever learned what boundaries are.
> 
> All it does is to create the appearance - so much beloved of authoritarian types - of compliance, which is at best superficial. And (conveniently) marginalises and excludes those whose ability to conform is, for whatever reason, diminished.
> 
> It's a high-wastage system that doesn't even produce the result it's claiming for itself.



Yeah I think this is pretty much what I'm getting up. Obviously going too far in any direction is going to be damagin. 'Boundaried' is a good word


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Oct 12, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> What if that strict culture bans many of the forms of self-expression you might need to process your emotions and experiences? Is predictable necessarily safe or can a place be predictably stifling and awful?
> 
> As someone else mentioned, schools which have good behaviour without draconian bullshit also have extensive pastoral care systems. That's not a coincidence. The thing that should be predictable is not seating plans or uniforms or the format of lessons, what should be predictable is a constant level of genuine care and support. That's what troubled kids will be lacking elsewhere and that's what a good school should provide.



What forms of self-expression are you thinking of exactly? Care and support are not mutually exclusive with seating plans and uniforms.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Oct 12, 2021)

pogofish said:


> Maybe you should read the long running thread here about her and her methods then?
> 
> Its back-up the top of the board right now.



I'll have a look, thank you


----------



## chilango (Oct 12, 2021)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> Yeah I think this is pretty much what I'm getting up. Obviously going too far in any direction is going to be damagin. 'Boundaried' is a good word


The issue is
Who gets to draw the boundaries?
Where do they draw them?
...and why?

Apply those questions to the likes of Birbalsingh and the 'neo-trad' movement in education and you get some pretty unpleasant answers.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Oct 12, 2021)

chilango said:


> The issue is
> Who gets to draw the boundaries?
> Where do they draw them?
> ...and why?
> ...



I've never heard of 'neo-trad' so can't comment on that, but surely those questions have to be answered regardless of where you're coming from. My answer would be that qualified educators with a genuine desire to see students fulfill their potential should be the ones who get to draw the boundaries.


----------



## chilango (Oct 12, 2021)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> I've never heard of 'neo-trad' so can't comment on that, but surely those questions have to be answered regardless of where you're coming from. My answer would be that qualified educators with a genuine desire to see students fulfill their potential should be the ones who get to draw the boundaries.



At a national level?
School by school?
Classroom by classroom?
Pupil by pupil?

White male m/c Oxbridge graduates deciding boundaries for black female w/c teens? Is that ok?

How do you qualify "genuine desire"?

Who decides what a child's "potential" is? How do you quantify this?  What's included? What's excluded?

It's incredibly political, ideological, classed, gendered, racialised and way too contested to not challenge and unpick.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Oct 12, 2021)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> What forms of self-expression are you thinking of exactly? Care and support are not mutually exclusive with seating plans and uniforms.



Well speaking would be one key form of expression.


----------



## Sweet FA (Oct 12, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> fidget, forget, squirm, make noises, etc


Be a kid basically.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Oct 12, 2021)

chilango said:


> At a national level?
> School by school?
> Classroom by classroom?
> Pupil by pupil?
> ...



I'm afraid I don't have a detailed policy document for you if that's what you're looking for.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Oct 12, 2021)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> I've never heard of 'neo-trad' so can't comment on that, but surely those questions have to be answered regardless of where you're coming from. My answer would be that qualified educators with a genuine desire to see students fulfill their potential should be the ones who get to draw the boundaries.



Birbalsingh's schtick is to hire teachers with no experience who will be in no position to question the boundaries she draws unilaterally.

More generally there is an emphasis on 'whole school behaviour policies' which are dreamt up or bought in wholesale by managers and which leave actual teachers little room to apply judgement.


----------



## chilango (Oct 12, 2021)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> I'm afraid I don't have a detailed policy document for you if that's what you're looking for.


Of course.

...but my point is uncritically wheeling out "kids need boundaries" acts as cover for all kinds of r/w populist authoritarianism.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Oct 12, 2021)

chilango said:


> Of course.
> 
> ...but my point is uncritically wheeling out "kids need boundaries" acts as cover for all kinds of r/w populist authoritarianism.



Would you say that kids _don't_ need boundaries?


----------



## chilango (Oct 12, 2021)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> Would you say that kids _don't_ need boundaries?


I'd say you're asking the wrong question.


----------



## chilango (Oct 12, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> Birbalsingh's schtick is to hire teachers with no experience who will be in no position to question the boundaries she draws unilaterally.
> 
> More generally there is an emphasis on 'whole school behaviour policies' which are dreamt up or bought in wholesale by managers and which leave actual teachers little room to apply judgement.



Teachers expressly forbidden to apply judgement in the name of "consistency". _Literal scripts_ for teachers to follow (idk if that's what Birbalsingh does, but many of her fellow travellers do.).


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Oct 12, 2021)

chilango said:


> I'd say you're asking the wrong question.



Well I'd say I was asking the correct one. 

Look, we obviously both agree that boundaries of _some sort_ are required, so it's not as if simply stating that is dangerous, or neccessarily leads to right-wing populism. What it does mean, however, is that all the questions you asked me above also need to be asked of you.

What do you think the boundaries should be? Who should they be set by?

At a national level?
School by school?
Classroom by classroom?
Pupil by pupil?

etc.


----------



## chilango (Oct 12, 2021)

One school I visited had the pupils stand behind their desks and lay out the contents of their pencil cases in front of them. If they didn't match the photograph of the prescribed layout that every teacher has a laminated photo of, they were whisked out of class - for "defiance" - before they got a chance to sit down. 

That's the sort of "boundaries" we're dealing with in schools in 2021.


----------



## tim (Oct 12, 2021)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> Would you say that kids _don't_ need boundaries?



Not as much as adults do. It's those with power in institutions that abuse most evilly.


----------



## chilango (Oct 12, 2021)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> Well I'd say I was asking the correct one.
> 
> Look, we obviously both agree that boundaries of _some sort_ are required, so it's not as if simply stating that is dangerous, or neccessarily leads to right-wing populism. What it does mean, however, is that all the questions you asked me above also need to be asked of you.
> 
> ...


I didn't expect you to answer those questions!


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Oct 12, 2021)

chilango said:


> One school I visited had the pupils stand behind their desks and lay out the contents of their pencil cases in front of them. If they didn't match the photograph of the prescribed layout that every teacher has a laminated photo of, they were whisked out of class - for "defiance" - before they got a chance to sit down.
> 
> That's the sort of "boundaries" we're dealing with in schools in 2021.



I agree that is mad. But this surely isn't representative of schools in the UK? There must be a happy medium sitting in between this position and one of complete freedom. 

I'll be more specific. I think smart phones should not be permitted to be used on school premises.


----------



## chilango (Oct 12, 2021)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> Well I'd say I was asking the correct one.


I'd say, today, the moment you bring boundaries, behaviour etc. to the fore and start making that a central concern of what goes on in a classroom you are wandering squarely into a field of battle that has been meticulously prepared by the Right.


----------



## tim (Oct 12, 2021)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> I agree that is mad. But this surely isn't representative of schools in the UK? There must be a happy medium sitting in between this position and one of complete freedom.
> 
> I'll be more specific. I think smart phones should not be permitted to be used on school premises.


Why not? They are a useful research tool.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Oct 12, 2021)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> I agree that is mad. But this surely isn't representative of schools in the UK? There must be a happy medium sitting in between this position and one of complete freedom.
> 
> I'll be more specific. I think smart phones should not be permitted to be used on school premises.



If we're preparing kids for the world of work cutting them off from the outside world is certainly one way to ensure they aren't ready for it. 

Unless we want them to work in a fucking Amazon dungeon.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Oct 12, 2021)

tim said:


> Why not? They are a useful research tool.



So are school computers.


----------



## chilango (Oct 12, 2021)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> I agree that is mad. But this surely isn't representative of schools in the UK? There must be a happy medium sitting in between this position and one of complete freedom.
> 
> I'll be more specific. I think smart phones should not be permitted to be used on school premises.


It was a "bog-standard Comprehensive", didn't even claim to be one of these "strict schools". I'd say it's pretty representative.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Oct 12, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> If we're preparing kids for the world of work cutting them off from the outside world is certainly one way to ensure they aren't ready for it.
> 
> Unless we want them to work in a fucking Amazon dungeon.



I'm more interested in cutting them off from hardcore porn and isis beheading videos. No need for that in the playground.


----------



## chilango (Oct 12, 2021)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> So are school computers.


Not if they're decades' old machines running on XP, where the whole internet is blocked except for BBC fucking Bitesize and everything has to be done through some buggy obsolete "learning platform" bought for a fortune from a mate of the Academy Trust's CEO.

I exaggerate, I hope, but you get the idea...


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Oct 12, 2021)

chilango said:


> Not if their decades old machines running on XP, where the whole internet is blocked except for BBC fucking Bitesize and everything has to be done through some buggy obsolete "learning platform" bought for a fortune from a mate of the Academy Trust's CEO.
> 
> I exaggerate, I hope, but you get the idea...



I think maybe both of us are playing a game of false dichotemy here. It really isn't a choice between 24/7 streams of anal fisting vs a 1994 IBM with a copy of Encarta installed. Or at least I hope that's not the choice we're facing.


----------



## chilango (Oct 12, 2021)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> I think maybe both of us are playing a game of false dichotemy here. It really isn't a choice between 24/7 streams of anal fisting vs a 1994 IBM with a copy of Encarta installed. Or at least I hope that's not the choice we're facing.


 No. I'm conflicted in the issue of phones. I think they can be tools that cause great harm - I've had to deal with the aftermath on a number of occasions, to point of police involvement and beyond sadly) but at the same time they can be incredibly useful and are an integral part of daily life that young people need to learn how to manage. 

...so, I don't think some blanket 'ban' or blanket 'permission' addresses this. It's a question of education, not boundaries.


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Oct 12, 2021)

chilango said:


> Not if their decades old machines running on XP, where the whole internet is blocked except for BBC fucking Bitesize and everything has to be done through some buggy obsolete "learning platform" bought for a fortune from a mate of the Academy Trust's CEO.
> 
> I exaggerate, I hope, but you get the idea...


Probably not too much of an exaggeration


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Oct 12, 2021)

chilango said:


> No. I'm conflicted in the issue of phones. I think they can be tools that cause great harm - I've had to deal with the aftermath on a number of occasions, to point of police involvement and beyond sadly) but at the same time they can be incredibly useful and are an integral part of daily life that young people need to learn how to manage.
> 
> ...so, I don't think some blanket 'ban' or blanket 'permission' addresses this. It's a question of education, not boundaries.



Yeah it's a bloody minefield. I sense something is wrong with the world though, and my instinct is that a consistent application of structure would help. Depending on the details, of course.

What sort of education do you think could ameleorate the risk that unrestricted smartphone usage poses?


----------



## Storm Fox (Oct 12, 2021)

chilango said:


> One school I visited had the pupils stand behind their desks and lay out the contents of their pencil cases in front of them. If they didn't match the photograph of the prescribed layout that every teacher has a laminated photo of, they were whisked out of class - for "defiance" - before they got a chance to sit down.
> 
> That's the sort of "boundaries" we're dealing with in schools in 2021.


I mentioned this in the Birbalsigh thread, how is this going to prepare kids for uni, especially if this level of control is extended to 6th form. 
As far as I see, a lot kids are going to either end rebelling with the new found freedom, or sinking as they are not at all used to not being spoon-fed everything. 

The should be boundaries, but this is crazy.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Oct 12, 2021)

chilango said:


> One school I visited had the pupils stand behind their desks and lay out the contents of their pencil cases in front of them. If they didn't match the photograph of the prescribed layout that every teacher has a laminated photo of, they were whisked out of class - for "defiance" - before they got a chance to sit down.
> 
> That's the sort of "boundaries" we're dealing with in schools in 2021.



These will be the same schools that try to ban 'slang' as well, at the same time as they're systematically mangling the English language with this kind of shit. Not having a pencil sharpener is not defiance, by any recognised definition of the word. 

It might however be a useful indicator of a kid from a deprived background or one whose parents aren't on top of them about school stuff to the point where they'd probably get decent grades with zero actual input from the school. Kids the school wants a pretext to offload, in other words.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Oct 12, 2021)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> Yeah it's a bloody minefield. I sense something is wrong with the world though, and my instinct is that a consistent application of structure would help. Depending on the details, of course.
> 
> What sort of education do you think could ameleorate the risk that unrestricted smartphone usage poses?



If parents aren't interested in setting boundaries with this stuff there's honestly nothing schools can do.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Oct 12, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> If parents aren't interested in setting boundaries with this stuff there's honestly nothing schools can do.



Can we at least agree that smartphones in the classroom be banned?


----------



## tim (Oct 12, 2021)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> So are school computers.



School computers are badly maintained, clunky, clutter up the classroom and don't have much relevance in an age where learners bring their own devices with them. The result of petty regulations is to infantalise students and give those in authority unwarranted powers.


----------



## chilango (Oct 12, 2021)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> Can we at least agree that smartphones in the classroom be banned?


No.

I've had hundreds of perfectly productive, happy, lessons where the kids _used _their smartphones to help their learning (directly or directly).


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Oct 12, 2021)

It seems there literally is nothing we can agree on then.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Oct 12, 2021)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> Can we at least agree that smartphones in the classroom be banned?



With things as they are, this is not possible to enforce. I say that as someone who has tried. Some kids, short of physically manhandling their phone off them (which is unacceptable of course) there's just no way in hell they're even putting it away. You can send them out but that doesn't actually solve the problem, it just relocates it.


----------



## isvicthere? (Oct 12, 2021)

Teaboy said:


> I don't really know what woke is.  What I do know is that every time I see someone declaring war on something (that's not actually a declaration of war as in shooting and dying) its been a total and embarrassing loss.  Utterly routed in every regard.
> 
> I see no reason why this also won't end the same way.



"Woke" is another in a long line of hate terms the right lazily use in lieu of an argument (check also: PC, virtue signalling, tree hugger, do-gooder, feminazi, champagne socialist and, of course, "snowflake") usually to describe something vanishingly insignificant or, more often, entirely imaginary.


----------



## chilango (Oct 12, 2021)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> Yeah it's a bloody minefield. I sense something is wrong with the world though, and my instinct is that a consistent application of structure would help. Depending on the details, of course.
> 
> What sort of education do you think could ameleorate the risk that unrestricted smartphone usage poses?



Unrestricted? Self-restricted is better.

As a general starting point kids, like all people, enjoy learning stuff and "getting good" (in their view and the views reflected back at them by others) at doing stuff.  A teacher can teach them how a device like a smartphone can help them with this, or hinder this.

Also generally, kids, like all people, like to "feel good" (happy, safe, liked, whatever). Again adults (including, but not exclusively, teachers) can help teach kids how smartphones can help with this, or hinder this.

Obviously details, exceptions, contexts etc. but if you start from here, rather than "OMG they just want to watch porn and attack each other" as your default you've got a place to start thinking about how to approach issues like this more positively.


----------



## chilango (Oct 12, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> With things as they are, this is not possible to enforce. I say that as someone who has tried. Some kids, short of physically manhandling their phone off them (which is unacceptable of course) there's just no way in hell they're even putting it away. You can send them out but that doesn't actually solve the problem, it just relocates it.


Kids of course will quite easily suss out ways around rules they see no benefit in following. Dummy phones to hand in, hiding places etc. etc. Even prisons fail to keep themselves mobile free. What chance does a school have?


----------



## tim (Oct 12, 2021)

isvicthere? said:


> "Woke" is another in a long line of hate terms the right lazily use in lieu of an argument (check also: PC, virtue signalling, tree hugger, do-gooder, feminazi, champagne socialist and, of course, "snowflake") usually to describe something vanishingly insignificant or, more often, entirely imaginary.



I was in War on Want which was an excellent organisation until we made George Galloway our General Secretary after which it vanished into insignificance.  Sadly, Galloway didn't.


----------



## Orang Utan (Oct 12, 2021)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> It seems there literally is nothing we can agree on then.


You could always listen to the host of people here who know what they are talking about having actual experience working with children in education


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Oct 12, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> You could always listen to the host of people here who know what they are talking about having actual experience working with children in education



I did


----------



## chilango (Oct 12, 2021)

Like all of this stuff the "war on woke" as it manifests in education, relies upon deploying the rhetoric of "common sense" to an audience that has neither the experience, skills or motivation to address it critically. Just like the "get back to work" nonsense from IDS wasn't aimed at workers but at an audience that are retired.

It is, ironically, a hefty dose of "virtue signalling" to whip up passive consent for hard-right authoritarianism.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 12, 2021)

stethoscope said:


> Perhaps like 'Back to Basics' it'll end in some sort of sex scandal... "Williamson caught in zoom wank".


FFS, spoiler tags!!!


----------



## killer b (Oct 12, 2021)

Storm Fox said:


> I mentioned this in the Birbalsigh thread, how is this going to prepare kids for uni, especially if this level of control is extended to 6th form.
> As far as I see, a lot kids are going to either end rebelling with the new found freedom, or sinking as they are not at all used to not being spoon-fed everything.


you'll be delighted to hear about ongoing changes to the higher education sector towards spoon-feeding the students everything then.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 12, 2021)

Sasaferrato said:


> I absolutely agree on the government with regard to refusing to let people speak.
> 
> It is absolutely unconscionable that politics of one stripe is encouraged, whilst opposing political view is silenced.
> 
> ...


The NUS is about as "Marxist" as an Aberdeen Angus, you muppet. It's the breeding pit of right-wing plonkrs like Jack Straw, Harriet Harman, & way too many other right-Labour politicians.
As for this supposed "left wing bias in tertiary education", bollocks. The fact is that the majority of young people are idealists, & that's reflected in their choice of political positioning. Only a small minority become prematurely-aged bitter virgin incel Tories at uni.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 12, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Are you playing some kind of anti-woke word salad bingo?


Apoplexy causes dysphasia.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 12, 2021)

two sheds said:


> BNP?


Hmm, I remember Nick "skullfucked by Martin Webster" Griffin appearing on QT, so I don't think they were "silenced" or cancelled" beyond paying for their own cuntitude.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 12, 2021)

Teaboy said:


> I like the idea of the NUS being hard left.  The uni I was at the NUS hierarchy was full of sports type who were there to get as much money for the sports clubs and as much sex as possible in general.
> 
> I've just googled the VP as his name is unusual.  Turns out he now runs his own events company.  You don't get much more hard left then that.


At Birkbeck the NUS were mostly budding political careerists, or Billy No-Mates cunts. All of them about as "hard left" as a jam butty.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 12, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> I believe in free speech and free expression.  But there is a range of things that people seem to mean by that. To the right, it seems to mean: bigots get to say whatever they want where ever they want, whenever they want, and there must be no reply.
> 
> To me, free speech means not only the speaker has it. The listeners have it too. Telling a bigot they’re full of shit is not removing their freedom to speak; it’s exercising mine.


It's concatenative. Remove any of the links between your & my freedom to speak, & the result is the reverse of free speech. You call me a cunt, I exercise my right to call you a fucking cunt, you fucking cunt!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 12, 2021)

not-bono-ever said:


> Flegs


Croppy bastard, mocking our flegs!!! Next ye'll be mocking our Bowler hats!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 12, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Christ.



Shit!!! She's got the Blair eyes!!!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 12, 2021)

Buddy Bradley said:


> Talking? In a school? What is the world coming to?


We used to get chained to one of those old cast iron radiators, then electrocuted, so we eventually cooked in a puddle of our own piss. They didn't mess about regarding disciplinary infractions at my alma mater!


----------



## SpookyFrank (Oct 12, 2021)

ViolentPanda said:


> We used to get chained to one of those old cast iron radiators, then electrocuted, so we eventually cooked in a puddle of our own piss. They didn't mess about regarding disciplinary infractions at my alma mater!



Your school had radiators? Jammy bastard


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 12, 2021)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> Don't know much about this woman, but having very tight rules in schools is a good idea in my opinion. If your entire world outside school is chaotic, as is unfortunately the case for many people growing up in deprived situations, it can be quite comforting to have a school environment that is strict, and therefore predictable and safe.


Conversely, it can also provide a fine environment to rebel against. I speak as someone who went to a very discipline-focused school.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 12, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> Your school had radiators? Jammy bastard


They didn't work - mostly because I started there during the 2nd "oil shock" of the '70s.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Oct 12, 2021)

ViolentPanda said:


> They didn't work - mostly because I started there during the 2nd "oil shock" of the '70s.



And electricity too. Luxury.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 12, 2021)

ohmyliver said:


> unless you're ADHD, or on the autism spectrum, in which very tight rules applied ridgidly and without flexibility, will, in all likelyhood, be very damaging.


As one of my nephews, on the ASD spectrum, is currently finding out.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 12, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> And electricity too. Luxury.


The charge came from a van der Graaf generator cranked by a 1st yr, with the wires connected to our testicles. We learned by the light of burning library books.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 12, 2021)

chilango said:


> At a national level?
> School by school?
> Classroom by classroom?
> Pupil by pupil?
> ...


Birbalsingh has ALWAYS been about making her mark so she can do politics, mostly at the expense of the children she reigns over. If you can't take all the kids with you, then you're doing something wrong, especially given the resources she has.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 12, 2021)

Storm Fox said:


> I mentioned this in the Birbalsigh thread, how is this going to prepare kids for uni, especially if this level of control is extended to 6th form.
> As far as I see, a lot kids are going to either end rebelling with the new found freedom, or sinking as they are not at all used to not being spoon-fed everything.
> 
> The should be boundaries, but this is crazy.


Birbalsingh's school environment sounds very much like the military school environment my grandad suffered 100 yrs ago. It was so ingrained in him, the layout of the school, & the posture expected etc, that when my dad took him there in his 80s, he stood to attention and marched the halls, even though he was half-lame, & fully blind. He knew exactly how many steps to take before a turn in the hall. Did he learn anything there? Only to obey authority, blindly & to his own detriment.


----------



## Yuwipi Woman (Oct 12, 2021)

Doodler said:


> The Tories might go for boosting funding for STEM subjects at the expense of the Arts and Humanities Research Council. They have probably wanted to do so for a long time and now they could claim that the poor state of public finances demands it.



That's what they're doing here.  All kinds of liberal arts programs have been cut back or discontinued entirely in favor of STEM majors.


----------



## two sheds (Oct 12, 2021)

ViolentPanda said:


> The charge came from a van der Graaf generator cranked by a 1st yr, with the wires connected to our testicles.


"Stick your 'ead near that"


----------



## Yuwipi Woman (Oct 12, 2021)

flypanam said:


> STEM funding will be a good idea until it isn’t. After all most teaching isn’t done by STEM grads, with all the focus on STEM we will see a shortage of Humanities and Social Sciences in a decade with the usual conservative concern about students not knowing history.



Ah, but it has to be "their history."


----------



## Raheem (Oct 12, 2021)

Thoughts on Katherine Birbalsingh.

1) "Strictest headteacher in the land" is 100% media hype. It's a competitive field with lots of headteachers willing to take it much further beyond the point of idiocy. 

2) The whole fairytale is too much to be taken seriously. Teacher gives speech at Tory party conference saying Michael Gove is a genius and the entire teaching profession are idiots. Gets lots of media attention. Teacher is then invited to be the head of a free school which is effectively being sponsored by the Tory party. School opens and is the greatest, most magical school in history. Teacher becomes media personality and anti-woke heroine.

It could be that the moral of the story is that Michael Gove is, after all, a genius and the entire teaching profession really are idiots. But I'd say there is probably more to it than that.


----------



## petee (Oct 12, 2021)

Yuwipi Woman said:


> That's what they're doing here.  All kinds of liberal arts programs have been cut back or discontinued entirely in favor of STEM majors.



yyyyup


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 12, 2021)

two sheds said:


> "Stick your 'ead near that"


Ah, schooldays! When I look back, I realise that our physics & chemistry teachers were all sadists!


----------



## two sheds (Oct 12, 2021)

To be fair I think it was one of the boys that (successfully) suggested that.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 12, 2021)

Yuwipi Woman said:


> That's what they're doing here.  All kinds of liberal arts programs have been cut back or discontinued entirely in favor of STEM majors.


Here, music & drama have been residualised in our secondary education system. They're an "after school club" extra in some cases. History qua history has regressed 60 yrs, to "great deeds by the great & the good" type bollocks, rather than anything interrogative, & as for social sciences...


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 12, 2021)

two sheds said:


> To be fair I think it was one of the boys that (successfully) suggested that.


My school:
Chemistry teacher: "Boy, come here & sniff this" (chlorine gas). Same teacher: "Boy come here & sniff this" (chloroform).
Physics teacher: "didn't I say not to touch a piece of sodium with your bare hand? Whoops!".

That's a few where people were hospitalised. There were many, many sub-hospitalisation incidents!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 12, 2021)

Yuwipi Woman said:


> Ah, but it has to be "their history."



In other words, revisionist fictions.


----------



## Sweet FA (Oct 12, 2021)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> It seems there literally is nothing we can agree on then.


You've got a very odd idea of how people/society work/s if you think that in 2021 you can say 'OK, from tomorrow; no phones in school'.


----------



## existentialist (Oct 12, 2021)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> Well I'd say I was asking the correct one.
> 
> Look, we obviously both agree that boundaries of _some sort_ are required, so it's not as if simply stating that is dangerous, or neccessarily leads to right-wing populism. What it does mean, however, is that all the questions you asked me above also need to be asked of you.
> 
> ...


I think it's less about _who_, and a lot more about _how_. Which, in my book, is pretty definitely *not *_how _Birbalsingh et al are doing it.


----------



## existentialist (Oct 12, 2021)

chilango said:


> One school I visited had the pupils stand behind their desks and lay out the contents of their pencil cases in front of them. If they didn't match the photograph of the prescribed layout that every teacher has a laminated photo of, they were whisked out of class - for "defiance" - before they got a chance to sit down.
> 
> That's the sort of "boundaries" we're dealing with in schools in 2021.


I got busted a lot for "dumb insolence" in primary school. I guess that was the 20th C equivalent...


----------



## two sheds (Oct 12, 2021)

Sweet FA said:


> You've got a very odd idea of how people/society work/s if you think that in 2021 you can say 'OK, from tomorrow; no phones in school'.


signal jamming


----------



## existentialist (Oct 12, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> Your school had radiators? Jammy bastard


All schools have radiators: they're there to "split your head open" should you dare to rock back in your chair


----------



## Dogsauce (Oct 12, 2021)

ohmyliver said:


> unless you're ADHD, or on the autism spectrum, in which very tight rules applied ridgidly and without flexibility, will, in all likelyhood, be very damaging.


Autistic spectrum children tend to value rules and structure, routine is important and easier to navigate - it’s when an environment is unfamiliar they can freak out. A friend worked with a lot of severely autistic kids and they tended not to make a fuss on their birthdays as it would usually upset them if things were different.


----------



## maomao (Oct 12, 2021)

Phones in class are brilliant. I can use the department's rubbish small font presentations and all the kids take zoomed pictures of them so they can read them.


----------



## existentialist (Oct 12, 2021)

It's probably unnecessary, but here's a personal example of how well "strict" works.

I'd have been around 7 or 8, and our "nature" class was taken by a stern and stony-faced headmaster who was well known for not tolerating any kind of deviation from his rules. We were doing "blackbirds", and one of our tasks was to draw and colour in a male and female blackbird. Which I duly did, and was reasonably pleased with the result, which we had to hand in.

The following week, the teacher walks in with a pile of exercise books under his arm, and starts handing them back, with a few comments for each one. As the pile grew smaller, I grew more apprehensive, until there was just one book left, which, by a process of elimination, I realised must be mine. Whether it was my discomfiture, or something else, that fact was pretty obvious to the other 30 kids in the room, and all eyes were on me as he, in a voice like thunder, demanded I came to the front of the room, and he brandished my exercise book at me, open at my picture of the two blackbirds. "What is this?", he raged. I didn't have to profess incomprehension, because I had no idea what he meant. His finger stabbed at the picture of the female, "WHAT IS THIS?", he asked again, and, terrified, I couldn't answer - not just because I was terrified, but because I had no idea what he was on about. I can't remember what I said...I just stammered something. I was ordered to bend over the front desk, while he - unbeknown to me - went somewhere and took out a plimsoll, which he then hit me on the backside with several times. Actually, it didn't hurt that much, but having to hide my pain while looking directly into the face of the child sitting at the desk I was leant over was rather more distressing - it's that I remember rather than the pain of the beating: I felt utterly, utterly humiliated, for some crime I didn't know I'd committed. Shame, and the unlikelihood of parental intervention, meant that I never told anyone of it.

But I recall asking him what the beating was for. He replied, "Dumb insolence", and I then had to do the walk of shame to my desk, with every eye in that classroom following me. I didn't cry - I'd already learned that crying usually made things worse, but seven-year-old me died a little inside as I went and sat down. He must have shown the picture to the class, because I recall a few chants about "green" in the playground later.

Some months later, the school nurse did her rounds, and one of the things she asked me/us to do was some of the Isihara colour-blindness tests, which resulted in the revelation that I was red/green colour blind. I have no idea if it was just me who did those tests, or if it was routine. But, either because somehow I was told, or because I figured it out myself, I realised that my inability to distinguish brown from green was what resulted in my public humiliation and beating: I had coloured in the female blackbird green, not brown. And, I assume, because this teacher was all about compliance and conformity, he automatically assumed that my error was a deliberate one designed to spite him, and punished me accordingly.

Meanwhile, incidentally, my (dyslexic and left-handed) brother was having his hand hit with a ruler every time a teacher caught him using his left hand to write.

OK, I know we don't beat primary school kids any more, but we certainly haven't moved past the stage of humiliating them in public, and that experience was an extremely formative one for me, which, some half a century later, still influences my thinking.

And the biggest lesson of that experience was that powerful people can be wrong. And their power often lies in their refusal to admit that. Nobody came to me and apologised, or explained what had happened: it was left to me to figure out - alone - why I had had to suffer like that. If ever there was a moment when I learned that injustice could be done without consequence, it was then.

Which has had two effects on me: one, a deep and profound disregard for those who exercise overweening power and control over others, and two; a burning rage against injustice and callous conformism, which manifested as a growing and increasingly blatant defiance of authority. If I was going to be punished for "dumb insolence" for an honest and unavoidable mistake, I might as well be hanged for a sheep as for a lamb, and what they got was not-always-so-dumb insolence. I wrote essays in which the protagonists would use language that was decidedly outwith the acceptable norms. I developed a style of passive-aggressive satire which formed the foundation of a lot of how I write nowadays. And, in something of a masterstroke, I defied my teachers by mastering writing with my left hand, sometimes even in mirror writing (not very good), in some kind of misguided gesture of solidarity with my brother.

And I got hit a lot. But I'd learned not to care, not even - or so it seemed - about the humiliation.

So when I see the antics of the likes of Birbalsing, I am taken back to those dying days of the 1960s, and the deliberate humiliation I was made to suffer for being "different" - because they assumed that *any *difference meant defiance. And a part of me - that increasingly angry, idealistic 8 year old - will not let that go unchallenged. Were fifty-something year old me to be back in that situation, that teacher would have been equally publicly humiliated by me in a way that small child could never have achieved...though I suspect that my efforts went some way towards pushing back at the system in general.

Which is why I cannot, and will not, accept that forced conformity will ever be a humane or valid way of enforcing discipline on children, not least because you will never know, as you clamp down ever harder on those children, and as that headmaster didn't stop to consider, that there may be very valid and unavoidable reasons why any given child is apparently "refusing" to conform.

And that is a hill I would happily die on. I reserve the deepest disdain for adults whose need for control is so overwhelming that they choose to inflict it on a group of people who have no possible chance of standing up for themselves. Fuck that.


----------



## Serge Forward (Oct 12, 2021)

existentialist said:


> It's probably unnecessary, but here's a personal example of how well "strict" works.
> 
> I'd have been around 7 or 8, and our "nature" class was taken by a stern and stony-faced headmaster who was well known for not tolerating any kind of deviation from his rules. We were doing "blackbirds", and one of our tasks was to draw and colour in a male and female blackbird. Which I duly did, and was reasonably pleased with the result, which we had to hand in.
> 
> ...


And you've won the thread. Great post.


----------



## Humberto (Oct 12, 2021)

Tory vision of the future. Joyless, authoritarianism for the plebs.


----------



## Dogsauce (Oct 12, 2021)

My niece‘s school was a bog standard but well performing comprehensive that had a new ‘traditionalist’ head a few years back, out went the usual uniform of ordinary jumpers etc, and they then all had to wear these horrible maroon blazers like it was fucking Harry Potter or something. It’s the sort of thing that probably works on the kind of dickhead parents who might send their kids to private school, some illusion of ‘poshness’. Load of bollocks, my niece hated it for the last couple of years she was there.


----------



## Humberto (Oct 12, 2021)

I'd be interested to know what section of head teachers in comprehensives are ex-public school. Just because all the head teachers I went to school with tried to promote that type of ethos.


----------



## tim (Oct 12, 2021)

stethoscope said:


> Perhaps like 'Back to Basics' it'll end in some sort of sex scandal... "Williamson caught in zoom wank".




The whip on the desk was an attempt to convince us that he was a traditional decent Tory pervert. What we don't see is what his trained pet tarantula was doing to him under the desk.


----------



## eatmorecheese (Oct 12, 2021)

existentialist said:


> It's probably unnecessary, but here's a personal example of how well "strict" works.
> 
> I'd have been around 7 or 8, and our "nature" class was taken by a stern and stony-faced headmaster who was well known for not tolerating any kind of deviation from his rules. We were doing "blackbirds", and one of our tasks was to draw and colour in a male and female blackbird. Which I duly did, and was reasonably pleased with the result, which we had to hand in.
> 
> ...


Beautifully written, painfully evocative and getting to some core truths there. Thanks.


----------



## ohmyliver (Oct 13, 2021)

Dogsauce said:


> Autistic spectrum children tend to value rules and structure, routine is important and easier to navigate - it’s when an environment is unfamiliar they can freak out. A friend worked with a lot of severely autistic kids and they tended not to make a fuss on their birthdays as it would usually upset them if things were different.



Rules and structure, yes.   Arbitary rules, rigid structures, and unfair punishments,  the product of a narcassistic 'this is how children should behave in MY school', definitely no.   Or in the case of ADHD,  defiantly no!


----------



## wemakeyousoundb (Oct 13, 2021)

existentialist said:


> It's probably unnecessary, but here's a personal example of how well "strict" works.
> 
> I'd have been around 7 or 8, and our "nature" class was taken by a stern and stony-faced headmaster who was well known for not tolerating any kind of deviation from his rules. We were doing "blackbirds", and one of our tasks was to draw and colour in a male and female blackbird. Which I duly did, and was reasonably pleased with the result, which we had to hand in.
> 
> ...


Had a vaguely similar encounter at a similar age back in france when I grew up, one of the few memorable experiences from that time in my life and a healthy distrust/dislike of authoritarianism has followed ever since.


----------



## Shechemite (Oct 14, 2021)

Discipline Pupil abuse in special school secure rooms filmed on CCTV


----------



## hitmouse (Oct 14, 2021)

ohmyliver said:


> Rules and structure, yes.   Arbitary rules, rigid structures, and unfair punishments,  the product of a narcassistic 'this is how children should behave in MY school', definitely no.   Or in the case of ADHD,  defiantly no!


Yeah, think existentialist's post above pretty much says all that needs to be said, but just to add on a (possibly redundant) further example: not long ago, I was talking with a mate - a really intelligent person, very sharply insightful, was labelled an underachiever/academically hopeless etc while at school, did pass her GCSEs but dropped out of college without getting any FE qualifications. She was reminscing about her schooldays and how one of the ways her ADHD manifests is that she has to keep her hands busy while she's listening to someone, so in order to pay attention in lessons she had to be doodling at the same time. And some of the teachers were alright with this, and some saw it as disrespectful, not paying attention, etc, and strictly banned her from doodling in their classes, so she was just unable to learn anything in those lessons. So yeah, thinking about that story makes me somewhat skeptical of the "we need strict rules and structure because it's so important for the neurodivergent kids" line.


----------



## NoXion (Oct 14, 2021)

Judging from my own experiences at school as a neurodivergent pupil, I'd say that structure can be important, but strict rules are bullshit, simply an excuse for psychopathic adults to go on power trips.

That "present your stationary in good order for inspection" horror story is an absolute shit-show. Such nonsense exists in the military as a way of indoctrinating individuals into the hierarchy, but it has no place in any institution that purports to educate children into becoming citizens of a free society. Funny how the culture warriors aren't all over that shit, it sounds like something straight out of North Korea.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Oct 15, 2021)

NoXion said:


> Judging from my own experiences at school as a neurodivergent pupil, I'd say that structure can be important, but strict rules are bullshit, simply an excuse for psychopathic adults to go on power trips.
> 
> That "present your stationary in good order for inspection" horror story is an absolute shit-show. Such nonsense exists in the military as a way of indoctrinating individuals into the hierarchy, but it has no place in any institution that purports to educate children into becoming citizens of a free society. Funny how the culture warriors aren't all over that shit, it sounds like something straight out of North Korea.



They are all over it, but they're demanding more of it. No more of this wishy-washy liberal nonsense of treating children as humans etc. 

Much of this 'culture war' shit is just miserable boomers who know their time is ending and who want to drag everything back to the imaginary olden days so they can pretend it isn't. It's the scorched-earth rearguard action of people who know, deep down, that they've already lost.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Oct 15, 2021)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Discipline Pupil abuse in special school secure rooms filmed on CCTV


Probably going off on a bit of a tangent here but - I am not able to read that at the moment, just not up to it. But it reminds me of when I used to be a cleaner at a special school. They had those secure rooms they'd put kids in. Just didn't seem right at all. Seemed like it was like a prison cell. And sometimes you'd hear the teachers talking badly to the kids who had to stay behind, that happened once atleast. I used to wonder if the kids who were put in those rooms ever really 'deserved' it, but seems to me they should not have had such rooms anyway. I don't think I'd want such people as 'educaters' or to go to such a place for my 'education' or anyone's kids tbh.

There was also a room where R.E. was clearly taught and it was just weird and creepy. All the main religions were represented but there were way too many crosses and crucifixes in the room. The room was also covered in signs about self-responsibility  - that you have no one to blame for 'mistakes' but yourself etc. The teacher there was clearly obsessed with christianity and 'self-responsibility'. It disturbed and saddened me.

We kept that school nice and clean but lost our jobs anyway ofcourse, the head's room was always emaculate. That was a weird place and losing our jobs there was actually a relief. Like quite a few places I've cleaned, nothing we did was ever 'good enough'.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 25, 2021)

innit?


----------



## Cloo (Nov 23, 2021)

I wonder if this was written from an office.  Or even in this country.



Funnily enough, Richard, I think you'll find callous right wing bastards work from home too.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Nov 23, 2021)

Cloo said:


> I wonder if this was written from an office.  Or even in this country.
> 
> View attachment 297870
> 
> Funnily enough, Richard, I think you'll find callous right wing bastards work from home too.



He certainly used to live in a gated community in Florida iirc.


----------



## DotCommunist (Nov 23, 2021)

Littlejohn lives in a gated compound for rich people somewhere sunny in America and has been phoning in his five minute hates from there for years on end.


----------



## Cloo (Nov 23, 2021)

Ah, British to the core!


----------



## MickiQ (Nov 23, 2021)

He's wasting his time, large scale WFH/hybrid working is a thing now despite what he and people like him think. Enough employees have bought into the idea they want it and enough employers have bought into the idea that they should offer it to make it a benefit that can be used to attract people. I think this is one idea that's not going back in the box.


----------



## NoXion (Nov 23, 2021)

Yeah no, nobody apart from one or two people, usually the leadership team, have been coming into the office these past few months. Although plenty of people turned up for our Autumn lunch down the pub, and we all had a good time.

I suspect my company is loving it, it's given them an opportunity to shed some costs by closing my local office. 

Both employees and upper management seem broadly in favour of the changes that have been happening.

So fucking suck it, Littledick. Working from home ain't going away any time soon.


----------



## 8ball (Nov 23, 2021)

I'm in the office right now.  My company is split on the matter.

They know there will be a rebellion if they try to force everyone in, though that is what most of the bigwigs want.


----------



## NoXion (Nov 23, 2021)

Why is working from home supposedly "woke", anyway? Is this some kind of foetid spillover from the batshit politicisation of the pandemic in the US?


----------



## 8ball (Nov 23, 2021)

NoXion said:


> Why is working from home supposedly "woke", anyway? Is this some kind of foetid spillover from the batshit politicisation of the pandemic in the US?



Also confused here.  And confused about the shitting in the sea thing.
And am working in the office.  So am totally unwoke on every level.


----------



## NoXion (Nov 23, 2021)

8ball said:


> Also confused here.  Also confused about the shitting in the sea thing.
> And am working in the office.  So am totally unwoke on every level.



I think the "shitting in the sea" is a reference to the fact that a load of raw sewage has recently been let out into the sea, because apparently for some reason water treatment plants aren't doing their job properly.


----------



## Cloo (Nov 23, 2021)

Wfh is 'woke' because a certain kind of older person doesn't understand it.  They think that surely,  without a 'boss' breathing down their neck,  lazy young people won't do any work because surely there's no way to tell how much work is being done (other than, you know, the email/message trail, the fact that results happen,  widgets get shifted,  content gets published etc). And wokeness is just against all their values, which include 'hard work', so obviously they're lazy.


----------



## 8ball (Nov 23, 2021)

NoXion said:


> I think the "shitting in the sea" is a reference to the fact that a load of raw sewage has recently been let out into the sea, because apparently for some reason water treatment plants aren't doing their job properly.



I still don't understand the woke connection but thanks anyway.


----------



## 8ball (Nov 23, 2021)

Cloo said:


> Wfh is 'woke' because a certain kind of older person doesn't understand it.  They think that surely,  without a 'boss' breathing down their neck,  lazy young people won't do any work because surely there's no way to tell how much work is being done...



I'm in the office and my boss is WFH, so the joke is on them.


----------



## killer b (Nov 23, 2021)

Cloo said:


> Wfh is 'woke' because a certain kind of older person doesn't understand it.  They think that surely,  without a 'boss' breathing down their neck,  lazy young people won't do any work because surely there's no way to tell how much work is being done (other than, you know, the email/message trail, the fact that results happen,  widgets get shifted,  content gets published etc). And wokeness is just against all their values, which include 'hard work', so obviously they're lazy.


it's a fair cop, I get fuck all done when I'm working from home.


----------



## Cloo (Nov 23, 2021)

8ball said:


> I'm in the office right now.  My company is split on the matter.
> 
> They know there will be a rebellion if they try to force everyone in, though that is what most of the bigwigs want.


Certainly if moving to another job now in my field it would seem pretty antisocial of any employer to be asking for full time office attendance in my field, which is eminently doable from home (editorial). The other thing people forget is that plenty of teams have been working flexibly for years.  I think there were only ever 2 days a week when my entire team was in and I'm sure that was not uncommon,  in London at least,  and if we do go 'back to the office', it'll probably feel the same as it did before for us as a team.


----------



## Voley (Nov 23, 2021)

We've had a couple of Covid cases in our office recently. I've only been back a handful of times anyhow but mentioned to my boss I'd be giving the place a wide berth until after Xmas and then I'll see what infection rates are like. She said she's doing the same. Then we had a chat about current workload / priorities and how things were looking in programme delivery. Going well, we both agreed.

And that's how us awful woke snowflakes operate, dreadful blight on society that we are.


----------



## 8ball (Nov 23, 2021)

Cloo said:


> Certainly if moving to another job now in my field it would seem pretty antisocial of any employer to be asking for full time office attendance in my field, which is eminently doable from home (editorial). The other thing people forget is that plenty of teams have been working flexibly for years.  I think there were only ever 2 days a week when my entire team was in and I'm sure that was not uncommon,  in London at least,  and if we do go 'back to the office', it'll probably feel the same as it did before for us as a team.



One thing that occurs to me is that WFH must be tough for young people in shared houses etc. who might not be supplied decent kit or have a suitable environment in which to use it.
Same for all sorts of people who can't set aside some part of a room up with relative calm and a decent workspace etc.


----------



## killer b (Nov 23, 2021)

TBH I have reservations about working from home not a million miles from what Littlejohn talks about in the subheading on that article (obv I won't be reading the full thing) - collaboration and communication between members of the team is more difficult however you cut it, and especially for people new to a job or a position there's a lot lost. 

I think many of the people who are keen to remain working from home are established in their careers, experienced in doing what they do, and the extra costs and inconveniences of working from home are outweighed by the savings in time and travel costs etc of getting into the office. Understandable, but it feels to me like there's an element of pulling up the drawbridge to this a lot of the time - while there may be little value personally for an experienced and fully skilled worker to being in the office, their absence is a detriment to junior colleagues, who are unable to easily call on their experience and advice.


----------



## 8ball (Nov 23, 2021)

killer b said:


> TBH I have reservations about working from home not a million miles from what Littlejohn talks about in the subheading on that article (obv I won't be reading the full thing) - collaboration and communication between members of the team is more difficult however you cut it, and especially for people new to a job or a position there's a lot lost.
> 
> I think many of the people who are keen to remain working from home are established in their careers, experienced in doing what they do, and the extra costs and inconveniences of working from home are outweighed by the savings in time and travel costs etc of getting into the office. Understandable, but it feels to me like there's an element of pulling up the drawbridge to this a lot of the time - while there may be little value personally for an experienced and fully skilled worker to being in the office, their absence is a detriment to junior colleagues, who are unable to easily call on their experience and advice.



Bloody good point.  I wouldn't want to be just starting in my job from home at a time like this.


----------



## strung out (Nov 23, 2021)

killer b said:


> TBH I have reservations about working from home not a million miles from what Littlejohn talks about in the subheading on that article (obv I won't be reading the full thing) - collaboration and communication between members of the team is more difficult however you cut it, and especially for people new to a job or a position there's a lot lost.
> 
> I think many of the people who are keen to remain working from home are established in their careers, experienced in doing what they do, and the extra costs and inconveniences of working from home are outweighed by the savings in time and travel costs etc of getting into the office. Understandable, but it feels to me like there's an element of pulling up the drawbridge to this a lot of the time - while there may be little value personally for an experienced and fully skilled worker to being in the office, their absence is a detriment to junior colleagues, who are unable to easily call on their experience and advice.


I completely agree. I appreciate being able to work from home a couple of days a week, but I personally think we should be looking to get people back in the office as much as possible (once it's safe to do so, obviously). Work in an academic library fwiw.


----------



## Cloo (Nov 23, 2021)

8ball said:


> One thing that occurs to me is that WFH must be tough for young people in shared houses etc. who might not be supplied decent kit or have a suitable environment in which to use it.
> Same for all sorts of people who can't set aside some part of a room up with relative calm and a decent workspace etc.


Absolutely, it has its place, especially for those without homes conducive to it and got young people and I'd like to go back in some of the week.  I just object to the idea some people who don't understand it have that going to the office = 'going back to work'


----------



## 8ball (Nov 23, 2021)

Cloo said:


> Absolutely, it has its place, especially for those without homes conducive to it and got young people and I'd like to go back in some of the week.  I just object to the idea some people who don't understand it have that going to the office = 'going back to work'



When you're at Uni you have the library and the computer lab (or whatever they call it nowadays).
Wouldn't mesh too easily with capitalism, but would make sense to have similar places dotted about where people lived, with differing configurations for different but broadly similar kinds of work..


----------



## JimW (Nov 23, 2021)

Plus the best consistent skiving I ever did was night shifts at a car parts factory; quotas had already been set carefully by looking busy under the stopwatch but actually do-able in about half the time then you could spend the rest of your shift asleep behind the stacks in the cutting tool room.


----------



## Teaboy (Nov 23, 2021)

I work from home, then again I did before covid.

Yesterday I was worked solidly from 8am till 7.30pm with just a 30 minute break at lunchtime for a walk.  It'll be the same again most days this week. I still don't know what woke is but I'm definitely not awake, I'm nodding off as I write this.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Nov 23, 2021)

More of these comical attempts to define Woke please


----------



## danny la rouge (Nov 23, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> More of these comical attempts to define Woke please



They probably are, too.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Nov 23, 2021)

killer b said:


> TBH I have reservations about working from home not a million miles from what Littlejohn talks about in the subheading on that article (obv I won't be reading the full thing) - collaboration and communication between members of the team is more difficult however you cut it, and especially for people new to a job or a position there's a lot lost.
> 
> I think many of the people who are keen to remain working from home are established in their careers, experienced in doing what they do, and the extra costs and inconveniences of working from home are outweighed by the savings in time and travel costs etc of getting into the office. Understandable, but it feels to me like there's an element of pulling up the drawbridge to this a lot of the time - while there may be little value personally for an experienced and fully skilled worker to being in the office, their absence is a detriment to junior colleagues, who are unable to easily call on their experience and advice.



Yeah agreed. A lot of this is a result of the years of utterly shit housing policy preceding the pandemic isn't. People, or at least the people lucky enough to be in a position to do so, aren't just accepting of having to spend hours travelling to work in order to afford somewhere to live any more. It'll be hard for them to put that genie back in the bottle for sure. 

I wonder if the idea that WFH is 'woke' is connected to that as well. The last thing they want is anything that messes with the housing market.


----------



## killer b (Nov 23, 2021)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> Yeah agreed. A lot of this is a result of the years of utterly shit housing policy preceding the pandemic isn't. People, or at least the people lucky enough to be in a position to do so, aren't just accepting of having to spend hours travelling to work in order to afford somewhere to live any more. It'll be hard for them to put that genie back in the bottle for sure.
> 
> I wonder if the idea that WFH is 'woke' is connected to that as well. The last thing they want is anything that messes with the housing market.


I don't think anyone's said working from home is woke tbf (unless I've missed it somewhere), Littlejohn just called you all snowflakes.


----------



## Teaboy (Nov 23, 2021)

killer b said:


> I don't think anyone's said working from home is woke tbf (unless I've missed it somewhere), Littlejohn just called you all snowflakes.



You did, some nobody tory MP I think started going on about wokeing from home.  I can't be bothered to google it.  I think it was more to do with their instruction to use the word woke in every interview regardless of the subject matter being discussed.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Nov 23, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> They probably are, too.



There’s been a few noted incidents of kids calling parent’s facist idiots when the parents are Trump or Johnson cronies


----------



## 8ball (Nov 23, 2021)

killer b said:


> I don't think anyone's said working from home is woke tbf (unless I've missed it somewhere), Littlejohn just called you all snowflakes.



Yeah, I thought you got snowflakes on both right and left too.  Whereas harder to be right-wing woke.


----------



## killer b (Nov 23, 2021)

Teaboy said:


> You did, some nobody tory MP I think started going on about wokeing from home.


I vaguely remember that - months ago though wasn't it? Aren't we talking about this Littlejohn article now?


----------



## Teaboy (Nov 23, 2021)

killer b said:


> I vaguely remember that - months ago though wasn't it? Aren't we talking about this Littlejohn article now?



Fuck knows.  As I said upthread I can barely keep my eyes open due to an excess of wokeing or something.


----------



## Cloo (Nov 23, 2021)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> I wonder if the idea that WFH is 'woke' is connected to that as well. The last thing they want is anything that messes with the housing market.


More specifically in parliament and in the upper echelons of media ownership, I have mentioned before, it's how many of them and their mates have a stake in commercial property as investment assets as well.


----------



## existentialist (Nov 23, 2021)

Cloo said:


> Wfh is 'woke' because a certain kind of older person doesn't understand it.  They think that surely,  without a 'boss' breathing down their neck,  lazy young people won't do any work because surely there's no way to tell how much work is being done (other than, you know, the email/message trail, the fact that results happen,  widgets get shifted,  content gets published etc). And wokeness is just against all their values, which include 'hard work', so obviously they're lazy.


I think a lot of people are very, very scared at the possibility that WFH might actually work. Theirs are the motives that are suspect...


----------



## 8ball (Nov 23, 2021)

existentialist said:


> I think a lot of people are very, very scared at the possibility that WFH might actually work. Theirs are the motives that are suspect...



Presumably the owners of commercial property?


----------



## Cloo (Nov 23, 2021)

I work for a built environment org and I'd say the industry is quietly confident - the fact was, even before this, actual occupancy of most buildings during the day is 60% tops, so I think some are seeing it as 'well, occupants still want the swing space'. It'll definitely change somewhat - I don't think it'll be either a feast or a famine for commercial property quite, but we'll see.


----------



## 8ball (Nov 23, 2021)

Cloo said:


> I work for a built environment org and I'd say the industry is quietly confident - the fact was, even before this, actual occupancy of most buildings during the day is 60% tops, so I think some are seeing it as 'well, occupants still want the swing space'. It'll definitely change somewhat - I don't think it'll be either a feast or a famine for commercial property quite, but we'll see.



That's the first unmediated take I've heard from someone close to the industry.  Interesting stuff.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Nov 24, 2021)

Cloo said:


> I work for a built environment org and I'd say the industry is quietly confident - the fact was, even before this, actual occupancy of most buildings during the day is 60% tops, so I think some are seeing it as 'well, occupants still want the swing space'. It'll definitely change somewhat - I don't think it'll be either a feast or a famine for commercial property quite, but we'll see.



The pandemic has/will accelerate existing trends, as an IT worker there have been a couple of jobs that went entirely remote in the last decade while others had people coming in about 80-90% of the time and wfh the rest. The pandemic just means those trends will apply to more jobs but theres always going to be some demand for bums on seats. Essentially your looking at middle managers who'd never contemplate the move having to accept it which just updates everyone a decade in advance.

You could easily come out of this situation with a regenerated local high street, working from home as the new normal, and probably a few other really good ideas, it could be done but that would require a government with imagination.


----------



## Cloo (Nov 24, 2021)

Quite a lot of people in the industry looking  at new approaches - my sister in law is working for some guys doing what they call 'work near home' in terms of creating co-working in regional large towns/ smaller cities,  so interested to see how that plays out.


----------



## killer b (Nov 24, 2021)

I have seen a few co-working places springing up in the last 12 months, but they seem to be still aimed at freelance creatives more than meat and potato office stuff.


----------



## Cloo (Nov 24, 2021)

A lot will come down to whether employers will budget for staff using these spaces.  I think online schemes already exist that allow a business to pay for passes that will get their staff a set amount of time over a year/month etc at a variety of co working spots. I think this only really works out if businesses cut their rented footprint.


----------



## Rob Ray (Nov 24, 2021)

A standout candidate for conservative anti-woke whiner of the week (the cringiest of cringe lyrics here).

"I'm a high-risk hillbilly" said Mr Kid Rock, 50, whose parents ran a successful car dealership franchise and who grew up on a six-acre suburban estate.
"Ain't nothin' changed here" the self-proclaimed blue-collar singer said, arguing he's "Detroit til I die." His Detroit suburbs mansion is currently on sale for $2.1m.
Insisting he was "like Springsteen" Mr Rock, net worth $150m, spent four minutes rapping about how he felt personally oppressed by "minions and their agendas" but was also really manly and still "slings more dick".


----------



## MickiQ (Nov 24, 2021)

Rob Ray said:


> A standout candidate for conservative anti-woke whiner of the week (the cringiest of cringe lyrics here).
> 
> "I'm a high-risk hillbilly" said Mr Kid Rock, 50, whose parents ran a successful car dealership franchise and who grew up on a six-acre suburban estate.
> "Ain't nothin' changed here" the self-proclaimed blue-collar singer said, arguing he's "Detroit til I die." His Detroit suburbs mansion is currently on sale for $2.1m.
> Insisting he was "like Springsteen" Mr Rock, net worth $150m, spent four minutes rapping about how he felt personally oppressed by "minions and their agendas" but was also really manly and still "slings more dick".



I have to admit that was rather catchy though I felt the guitarist had a better voice than his boss, not sure how he can feel oppressed by yellow cartoon characters though.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Nov 28, 2021)




----------



## alex_ (Nov 28, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


>




Sounds like cancel culture to me


----------



## existentialist (Nov 28, 2021)

alex_ said:


> Sounds like cancel culture to me


That's OK. It's only wrong when someone else does it.


----------



## 8ball (Nov 28, 2021)

existentialist said:


> That's OK. It's only wrong when someone else does it.



Oh, urban has moved on from the line that cancel culture doesn’t exist?

Will update my notes…


----------



## NoXion (Nov 28, 2021)

8ball said:


> Oh, urban has moved on from the line that cancel culture doesn’t exist?
> 
> Will update my notes…



I wasn't aware we had a line on anything. Sounds a bit like this "monothought clique" I keep hearing about which also doesn't exist.


----------



## two sheds (Nov 28, 2021)

NoXion said:


> I wasn't aware we had a line on anything. Sounds a bit like this "monothought clique" I keep hearing about which also doesn't exist.


yeh that's what you _all_ say


----------



## 8ball (Nov 28, 2021)

NoXion said:


> I wasn't aware we had a line on anything. Sounds a bit like this "monothought clique" I keep hearing about which also doesn't exist.



Ah, that still doesn’t exist.  Cheers.
<updates notes…>


----------



## campanula (Nov 28, 2021)

My daughter uses a co-working space because it is warm, near to her house, friendly to having the dog about and has really good coffee facilities. And she likes the chit-chat. She was going a bit stir-crazy wfh. Her work even pays for the rent (which is around £30 pw, I think). I thought this was a thing because she had a choice of several spaces.


----------



## Raheem (Nov 28, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


>



"Woke" here is superfluous. It just means "has criticised Boris Johnson".


----------



## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Nov 28, 2021)

Raheem said:


> "Woke" here is superfluous. It just means "has criticised Boris Johnson".


'woke' enough to realise he's wrong/lying.


----------



## two sheds (Nov 28, 2021)

This would be all over the front pages of the Mail and others with accusations of Stalinist repression if it were Labour doing it.


----------



## Raheem (Nov 28, 2021)

It's actually pretty scandalous. Scientist knocks on the DHSC with news of miracle a cure for Covid. Says the doorman: "That's all very well, but I'm afraid they Googled you, sir."


----------



## 8ball (Nov 28, 2021)

Raheem said:


> "Woke" here is superfluous. It just means "has criticised Boris Johnson".



Indeed.  Have seen Tory circles criticising Johnson for being “too woke”.

Though I think that was partly responsible for the “war on woke” idea in the first place.


----------



## existentialist (Nov 28, 2021)

8ball said:


> Oh, urban has moved on from the line that cancel culture doesn’t exist?
> 
> Will update my notes…


I should point out that I speak only on my own account, and am not speaking on behalf of the shadowy collective behind Urban75 .


----------



## Artaxerxes (Nov 28, 2021)

Raheem said:


> "Woke" here is superfluous. It just means "has criticised Boris Johnson".



Woke has always meant "someone is stopping me doing something discriminatory" so yes.


----------



## 8ball (Nov 28, 2021)

existentialist said:


> I should point out that I speak only on my own account, and am not speaking on behalf of the shadowy collective behind Urban75 .



Thanks.  Footnote added.


----------



## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Nov 29, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Woke has always meant "someone is stopping me doing something discriminatory" so yes.


I don't think it has. When it was first banded around it was people declaring 'themselves' woke, to mean that they had come to a (or several) realisations. I now only hear it thrown onto other people as either an insult for a socialist pov or any person who you feel curtails your 'freedoms'.


----------



## Orang Utan (Nov 29, 2021)

The weather has been very woke recently.
Is it Doctor Who’s fault?


----------



## two sheds (Nov 29, 2021)

There are a few occasions where the 'woke' accusation is justified - when there's an accusation of racism, sexism or homophobia by someone who's just misunderstood or gone down some rabbit hole themselves. That's about 1% of the accusations though and the right use them for general smearing purposes.

Eta: I've seen accusations of cultural appropriation of Japanese culture when the "appropriator" turned out to be Japanese, for example.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Nov 29, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> The weather has been very woke recently.
> Is it Doctor Who’s fault?


Ever since the Time Lord became a Time Lady.


----------



## ska invita (Nov 29, 2021)

I heard Iain Sinclair talking about his new book Gold Machine and he brought up the role of Kew Gardens in plantation colonialism - something i wasnt aware of before.
A little overview of sorts here To what extent is the colonial history of botany realised at Kew Gardens today?








						The dark history of Kew Gardens with its 'deep roots in colonialism and racism'
					

Kew's director has spoken about its 'shameful' past




					www.mylondon.news
				




Anyhow Kew have been making small steps to fess up to this history and also make gardening that bit less posh-white- radio-4-racist








						Kew Gardens director hits back at claims it is 'growing woke'
					

Richard Deverell says there is ‘no acceptable neutral position’ on history of colonialism and racism




					www.theguardian.com
				



...cue Tory outrage etc


----------



## 8ball (Nov 29, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Eta: I've seen accusations of cultural appropriation of Japanese culture when the "appropriator" turned out to be Japanese, for example.



The acceptable Japanese face of white privilege.


----------



## nogojones (Nov 29, 2021)

ska invita said:


> I heard Iain Sinclair talking about his new book Gold Machine and he brought up the role of Kew Gardens in plantation colonialism - something i wasnt aware of before.
> A little overview of sorts here To what extent is the colonial history of botany realised at Kew Gardens today?
> 
> 
> ...


If you want a longer read around some aspects, this is pretty good...









						Plants and Empire
					

Plants seldom figure in the grand narratives of war, peace, or even everyday life yet they are often at the center of high intrigue. In t...



					www.goodreads.com


----------



## isvicthere? (Dec 6, 2021)

NoXion said:


> I wasn't aware we had a line on anything. Sounds a bit like this "monothought clique" I keep hearing about which also doesn't exist.



Ah, the urban "monothought clique"! It's a long time since l heard THAT phrase. Nostalgic shades of Steelgate, urban parties before they were called "Offline" and "l went to the Living Room last night" threads.


----------



## seeformiles (Dec 6, 2021)

existentialist said:


> It's probably unnecessary, but here's a personal example of how well "strict" works.
> 
> I'd have been around 7 or 8, and our "nature" class was taken by a stern and stony-faced headmaster who was well known for not tolerating any kind of deviation from his rules. We were doing "blackbirds", and one of our tasks was to draw and colour in a male and female blackbird. Which I duly did, and was reasonably pleased with the result, which we had to hand in.
> 
> ...



A great post that brings back a lot of similar unpleasant memories for me. Such treatment turned me into a bloody minded nonconformist suspicious of any attempts by those in authority to “come down on me like a ton of bricks”. It got to the stage at secondary school where I realised teachers’ power was something the worst ones hid behind and certain rules were so ludicrous as to be unenforceable so would frequently stand up in class, mutter “Fuck this..” and leave for the day. My parents took me to a psychiatrist to try and get to the root of my “trouble” but I’m still a bloody minded so-and-so suspicious of authority who feels great anger at unfairness. I think that’s a positive thing.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Dec 7, 2021)

seeformiles said:


> A great post that brings back a lot of similar unpleasant memories for me. Such treatment turned me into a bloody minded nonconformist suspicious of any attempts by those in authority to “come down on me like a ton of bricks”. It got to the stage at secondary school where I realised teachers’ power was something the worst ones hid behind and certain rules were so ludicrous as to be unenforceable so would frequently stand up in class, mutter “Fuck this..” and leave for the day. My parents took me to a psychiatrist to try and get to the root of my “trouble” but I’m still a bloody minded so-and-so suspicious of authority who feels great anger at unfairness. I think that’s a positive thing.



The most vicious fight I had with my late father was over the lyrics of a Bowie song.

Cygnet Committee. 

And I close my eyes and tighten up my brain
For I once read a book in which the lovers were slain
For they knew not the words of the Free States' refrain
It said:
"I believe in the power of good
I believe in the state of love
I will fight for the right to be right
I will kill for the good of the fight for the right to be right"

He could not understand the concept of being right, but because of circumstance, not being able to be right. A teacher for example who states something which you know to be wrong, but you cannot challenge it. I did challenge it on one occasion, and was struck on the face by a drunk geography teacher.


----------



## seeformiles (Dec 7, 2021)

Sasaferrato said:


> The most vicious fight I had with my late father was over the lyrics of a Bowie song.
> 
> Cygnet Committee.
> 
> ...



I recall Bowie being the cause of an argument between me and my old man. I was watching the official video for the then just released “Boys Keep Swinging” and he was disgusted at the sight of Bowie in drag (playing his 3 backing singers) and how they walked to the front of the stage in turn, threw off their wigs and smeared their make up. Suppose it was one “gender bending” stunt too far for him. 
He did mellow out a bit later on but our main point of contention was his defence of religion when it causes believers of one faith to regard those not of that faith as lesser and treat them in a discriminatory way. I do regret that the last coherent discussion we ever had was a pretty fiery exchange on that subject - before a brain tumour robbed him of all reason and dignity. Mind you, I still maintain that I was right not to accept anything less than equal treatment from anyone - even if their faith has taught them otherwise.


----------



## hitmouse (Dec 14, 2021)

ska invita said:


> I heard Iain Sinclair talking about his new book Gold Machine and he brought up the role of Kew Gardens in plantation colonialism - something i wasnt aware of before.
> A little overview of sorts here To what extent is the colonial history of botany realised at Kew Gardens today?
> 
> 
> ...


On a related note, decent recent LRB article on history wars:








						Richard J. Evans · Short Cuts: Rewritten History · LRB 2 December 2021
					






					lrb.co.uk
				






> ‘We won’t allow people to censor our past,’ Robert Jenrick, then communities secretary, said in January. ‘It is our privilege in this country to have inherited a deep, rich, fascinating and yes, often complex, past. We are mature enough as a society to understand that and to seek to pass it on, warts and all. To do otherwise would leave our history and future diminished.’ A month later, Oliver Dowden, then culture secretary and now co-chair of the Conservative Party, made a similar point: ‘Proud and confident nations face their past squarely; they do not seek to run from or airbrush the history upon which they are founded ... Purging uncomfortable elements of our past does nothing but damage our understanding of it.’
> 
> Jenrick and Dowden’s emphasis on the freedom of historians to carry out research into uncomfortable topics, and their recognition of the complexities and ambiguities that characterise Britain’s history, is salutary. No historian would disagree. But if we look closer, we find that Jenrick and Dowden’s statements are not quite what they seem. They rightly condemn any threat to erase significant parts of British history from the record, but this threat doesn’t originate from the ‘woke worthies’ and ‘the flash mob’ of the left, as Jenrick thinks, or the ‘cancel culture’ that Dowden condemned at the Conservative Party Conference in October, but from the Conservative government itself. As Dominic Dean, of the University of Sussex, put it in his blog in February, ‘the UK government is currently engaged in an open and multilayered campaign to control and change the nature and quality of historical research in Britain and, in particular, of its presentation to the public.’
> 
> ...


----------



## hitmouse (Dec 14, 2021)

cont (this bit also has a valuable reminder of the libscum's complicity in this shit):


> Another example of the government’s willingness to weaponise the past is _Life in the United Kingdom: A Guide for New Residents_, the information booklet on which applicants for naturalised British citizenship are examined as part of their admission process. In July 2020, the Historical Association posted a letter signed by 175 historians denouncing the document as ‘fundamentally misleading and in places demonstrably false’ in its account of slavery, the slave trade and the process of decolonisation. The first version of _Life in the United Kingdom_, produced in 2004 by the Labour government, acknowledged the presence of enslaved people in Britain and of Black people more generally in the British Isles in the 18th century, and pointed out that enslaved people played a significant role in securing their own emancipation. The 2013 edition, the first published under Conservative rule (at that time, in coalition with the Liberal Democrats), omitted all this and characterised emancipation as a gift to enslaved people from the British, who were seen as acting solely on moral grounds. The fact that tens of thousands died on British slave ships, mentioned in the 2004 and 2007 documents, was omitted from the 2013 version, which mentions only the ‘horrible conditions’ under which they were transported. The document also claims that slavery was illegal in Britain in the 18th century (it wasn’t – slaves were advertised for sale in newspapers). Slavery, it says, was an ‘overseas industry’. The 2005 and 2007 editions had conceded that any account of history ‘is only one interpretation. Historians often disagree.’ They also noted that contemporaries were themselves divided on matters such as the costs and benefits of empire. This pluralism disappeared in 2013, and instead we were told that ‘the great majority of British people believed in the empire as a force for good in the world.’
> 
> As the Birkbeck historian Frank Trentmann recently pointed out in his excellent analysis of _Life in the United Kingdom_, more recent history is similarly distorted by the 2013 document. Cutting out all reference to the appeasement pursued by British governments in the 1930s, the narrative simply says: ‘The British government tried to avoid another war.’ Churchill is denied the credit for opposing appeasement, jumping onto the stage of history when he is made prime minister in 1940. Hitler’s racism, mentioned in the 2004 and 2007 versions, doesn’t appear in the latest edition, which says merely that he ‘wanted to conquer more land for the German people’. Antisemitism doesn’t come up either. Nor does the word ‘Holocaust’. The document also claims that in the postwar period ‘there was, for the most part, an orderly transition from empire to commonwealth, with countries being granted their independence’, ignoring the millions of deaths that accompanied the partition of India, the Mau-Mau rebellion in Kenya and the ‘emergency’ in Malaya, to name just three violent and chaotic instances of decolonisation.
> 
> ...


----------



## ska invita (Dec 15, 2021)

UK government vetoes reappointment of another two Channel 4 directors - California News Times
					

The UK government has blocked two Channel 4 directors from rejoining the broadcaster’s board of directors as the latest sign of a willingness to intervene in media appointments. Process-savvy people said cultural secretary Nadine Dorries refused to approve the reappointment of Oscar-winning film...




					californianewstimes.com


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 29, 2021)




----------



## 8ball (Dec 29, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


>



I think I may need to go on some kind of course before I know what this headline means.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 29, 2021)

8ball said:


> I think I may need to go on some kind of course before I know what this headline means.



Kew has been quite good at saying "as part of Britains fondness for discovering new lands and robbing them they also used plants as a method of control via breaking or enforcing monopolies. Sometimes they just stole them to see how they grew"

Many people are upset with this because plants aren't political*

*Everything's political


----------



## 8ball (Dec 29, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Many people are upset with this because plants aren't political*
> 
> *Everything's political



Indeed.  Though plants mostly vote Lib Dem. 
Botanists are divided over whether they are voting against their interests.


----------



## Raheem (Dec 29, 2021)

8ball said:


> Indeed.  Though plants mostly vote Lib Dem.
> Botanists are divided over whether they are voting against their interests.


A lot of plants voted to leaf.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Dec 29, 2021)

Raheem said:


> A lot of plants voted to leaf.



except the romainers


----------



## Nine Bob Note (Dec 29, 2021)

Puddy_Tat said:


> except the romainers



If only they'd lettuce have a second rhododendron


----------



## stdP (Dec 30, 2021)

Nine Bob Note said:


> If only they'd lettuce have a second rhododendron



If only we'd knotweed on our chips...


----------



## Serge Forward (Dec 30, 2021)

And had control of our herbaceous borders.


----------



## yield (Dec 30, 2021)

Nine Bob Note said:


> If only they'd lettuce have a second rhododendron


Wither democracy


----------



## 8ball (Dec 30, 2021)

yield said:


> Wither democracy



I'm not sure anyone believes in that old idea these days.


----------



## existentialist (Dec 30, 2021)

Root and branch reform is the only way.


----------



## Cloo (Jan 7, 2022)

This latest piece of wankery. So much to unpack

'Our history', treated properly and not used a propaganda tool, _should _'change' as we listen to and look for the narratives of a wider group of people and learn from that. That's what history does. It isn't totally fixed and unchanging.

One thing we have learned is what it's like when the wealthy and powerful control that narrative - and that it is A Bad Thing that results in actual history being erased (because what I hear loud and clear from this is 'It's only for authority to challenge history')

History isn't actually being 'changed' you moron, it's being revealed. There is one statue fewer of a rich white bloke no one had heard of before this in the first place, and actually is now probably better known after this. With the addition that it's understood he profited from the sale of human beings. Saw a great quote on Twitter yesterday: 'This isn't cancel culture, it's correction culture'


----------



## isvicthere? (Jan 7, 2022)

Cloo said:


> This latest piece of wankery. So much to unpack
> 
> 'Our history', treated properly and not used a propaganda tool, _should _'change' as we listen to and look for the narratives of a wider group of people and learn from that. That's what history does. It isn't totally fixed and unchanging.
> 
> ...



Indeed. The pulling down of the egregious Colston statue wasn´t "changing" history; it was _making_ it.


----------



## two sheds (Jan 7, 2022)

Mail doubtless felt the same about Saddam Hussein's statue, fucking vandals they were 

ah no ...


----------



## Yossarian (Jan 7, 2022)

Cloo said:


> This latest piece of wankery. So much to unpack
> 
> 'Our history', treated properly and not used a propaganda tool, _should _'change' as we listen to and look for the narratives of a wider group of people and learn from that. That's what history does. It isn't totally fixed and unchanging.
> 
> ...



I'm guessing he didn't mean "Taking down a statue can't change our horrific slave-trading history, it's time to talk about reparations."


----------



## 8ball (Jan 7, 2022)

When they say "history", they mean "national mythology".

People can still go see the Colston statue, just somewhere else, with a little history that has been added to it.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Jan 7, 2022)

8ball said:


> When they say "history", they mean "national mythology".



Quite. It's not like a statue tells you anything about history anyway is it, beyond 'this person was important in some way.' Anything past that isn't about history at all.


----------



## 8ball (Jan 7, 2022)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> Quite. It's not like a statue tells you anything about history anyway is it, beyond 'this person was important in some way.' Anything past that isn't about history at all.



Yeah, a statue always comes with a story and local people's feelings etc. attached to it.
I'd say the jury's verdict was a good gauge to people's feelings, and I'm not someone who likes the idea of pulling statues down generally, though generally the circumstances differ.


----------



## xenon (Jan 7, 2022)

Fuck off to the pathetic whining statue lickers. And the ever popular erroneous slippery slope arguments.

Also it's in a museum now, you know, where they do history and that.


----------



## ska invita (Jan 7, 2022)

xenon said:


> Fuck off to the pathetic whining statue lickers.



snowflake tears etc


----------



## Cloo (Jan 7, 2022)

8ball said:


> Yeah, a statue always comes with a story and local people's feelings etc. attached to it.
> I'd say the jury's verdict was a good gauge to people's feelings, and I'm not someone who likes the idea of pulling statues down generally, though generally the circumstances differ.


Human rights lawyer I follow on Twitter  was saying that by clamping down on protest, the government may discover that backfiring as juries are likely be disinclined to jail people for what they will see as justifiable/reasonable protest.

Of course RW commentators are already huffing and puffing about how obviously this is why juries are terrible and these decisions must be left to a white men in his 70s. Funny sentiment coming from people who are determined to preserve 'British traditions' and 'the rule of law', like, y'know, juries.


----------



## bemused (Jan 7, 2022)

I've never understood what 'woke' meant. I can't think of one instance where 'woke' has stopped me from doing anything I want. It's funny to me that something that has pretty much zero impact on anyone lives gets so much coverage in parts of the media.


----------



## existentialist (Jan 7, 2022)

bemused said:


> I've never understood what 'woke' meant. I can't think of one instance where 'woke' has stopped me from doing anything I want. It's funny to me that something that has pretty much zero impact on anyone lives gets so much coverage in parts of the media.


It's a manufactured folk devil. Like "PC gorn maad" before it, and any amount of "you can't say this anymore, but..." bollocks.


----------



## bemused (Jan 7, 2022)

existentialist said:


> It's a manufactured folk devil. Like "PC gorn maad" before it, and any amount of "you can't say this anymore, but..." bollocks.


I've always assumed it was just PC gone mad recycled.


----------



## existentialist (Jan 7, 2022)

bemused said:


> I've always assumed it was just PC gone mad recycled.


Nah, it was there before PC. I can remember people of my grandparents' generation prefacing appallingly racist remarks with similar appeals to some nebulous agency that meant they weren't able to be racist. Charitably, I assume it to be some sort of long-buried latent conscience, but I could be very wrong there.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Jan 7, 2022)

existentialist said:


> It's a manufactured folk devil. Like "PC gorn maad" before it, and any amount of "you can't say this anymore, but..." bollocks.



There's some of that in there but I think in intent and in effect it's closer to being the latest incarnation of the right wing idea of 'The Will of the People' tbh. That's what gives it a greater range - it can be applied to anything very right wing types don't like, and carries the implication at times that 'the Woke' are borderline traitors, the enemy within etc. I don't think those elements were there with 'PC gone mad' which was more restricted to 'you can't say explicitly racist things without someone calling you a racist' type of stuff. Like a lot of far right stuff it's ridiculous when it's not accompanied by any power but sinister when it is.


----------



## xenon (Jan 7, 2022)

In a joshing way, my uncle refers to me as the "woke." We might have talked about the Colstone thing,I live in Bristol,  and also don't like Johnson, Brexit etc. ... He's a decent guy and we actually get on OK but normally avoid politics at the dinner table...


----------



## krtek a houby (Jan 7, 2022)

Hopefully the Churchill statue will be next


----------



## two sheds (Jan 7, 2022)

There'll be calls for the death penalty if anyone pulls that down


----------



## Dogsauce (Jan 8, 2022)

Have they been brave enough to stick that Thatcher statue up in Grantham yet? They seemed to be dithering last time I heard.


----------



## Cloo (Feb 5, 2022)

Mail's at it again about how Dept of Health staff are only planning on going 'back to work' (I think they mean 'office') 4 days a month.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Feb 5, 2022)

Wasn't sure whether to put this on Tory stupidity or here


----------



## 8ball (Feb 5, 2022)

Artaxerxes said:


> Wasn't sure whether to put this on Tory stupidity or here




They think things are true just because they made it up 5 seconds ago.
There’s a lot of it about these days.


----------



## Dogsauce (Feb 6, 2022)

They’re probably actually pissed off because the trust has become somewhat less accommodating of dog-slaughtering fox hunts on their land, this is just a stick to beat them with.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Feb 7, 2022)




----------



## ska invita (Feb 7, 2022)

not-bono-ever said:


> View attachment 309114


dont forget the  threat of those radical catholics


----------



## Artaxerxes (Feb 7, 2022)

ska invita said:


> dont forget the  threat of those radical catholics
> 
> View attachment 309115



I think my brain just stalled.


----------



## krtek a houby (Feb 7, 2022)

ska invita said:


> dont forget the  threat of those radical catholics
> 
> View attachment 309115



The Pope is woke?

Some sort of joke?


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Feb 7, 2022)

krtek a houby said:


> The Pope is woke?
> 
> Some sort of joke?


Not if you are high on coke.
Then saying that the pope is woke
Will seem to be a genius stroke
And mark you out as a top bloke.

Cheers  - Louis MacNeice


----------



## Serge Forward (Feb 7, 2022)

The pope is under the yoke of woke
And there's nowt as queer as folk.


----------



## krtek a houby (Feb 7, 2022)

A woke Pope one could not predict
But it's prob better than the Benedict


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 7, 2022)

the pope's awoke, i mean pope francis,
this is no joke - around the vatican he prances
waves his cope around his head
and runs from nurse back to his bed


----------



## teqniq (Feb 7, 2022)

not-bono-ever said:


> View attachment 309114


Who is this, Sunak?


----------



## not-bono-ever (Feb 7, 2022)

Griffiths someone or other - MP now head of policy. It’s trumpian


----------



## nogojones (Feb 7, 2022)

ska invita said:


> dont forget the  threat of those radical catholics
> 
> View attachment 309115


I look forward to the pope going full Fr. Camilo Torres.


----------



## ska invita (Feb 7, 2022)

I like the pope
the woke pope smokes dope


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 7, 2022)

woke pope soap onna rope


----------



## fishfinger (Feb 7, 2022)

DotCommunist said:


> woke pope soap onna rope


They should have made the rope into a rosary.


----------



## strung out (Feb 7, 2022)




----------



## krtek a houby (Feb 7, 2022)

Can a Pontiff ever be woke
Some believe that he can
But beware of the soap
All ropes lead to the Vatican


----------



## Idris2002 (Feb 7, 2022)

nogojones said:


> I look forward to the pope going full Fr. Camilo Torres.


Word on the street is that Big Frank exclusively eats in the Vatican canteen, so as to avoid poisoners.


----------



## petee (Feb 7, 2022)

strung out said:


> View attachment 309131



i'm old enough to get that reference.


----------



## mojo pixy (Feb 7, 2022)

DotCommunist said:


> woke pope soap onna rope



Well then


----------



## Artaxerxes (Feb 10, 2022)

They really are just so fragile, one could even call them snowflakes


----------



## Cloo (Feb 15, 2022)

Making a clear play for 'woke' as the big lefty boogieman at next elections it appears: Tory party chairman says ‘painful woke psychodrama’ weakening the west

Complaining of 'groupthink' around, you know, ending police racism, people loving who they want, women being treated as human beings, but demanding a nationalistic groupthink to protect us from the Forriners instead.


----------



## Kaka Tim (Feb 15, 2022)

The Woke mafia cancelling Jim Davidson and it ain't half hot mum was a like a massive green light to putin.
Obviously a nation so effete that it objects to overt racism in its popular culture will be too shandy pants to object to a military invasion of Ukraine.
QED


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Feb 15, 2022)

I've heard that ALL of our military personnel are now pacifist vegans, and the ones who are in control of our nuclear weapons would rather fight the Ruskies with meditation and foot massage.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Feb 15, 2022)

Cloo said:


> Making a clear play for 'woke' as the big lefty boogieman at next elections it appears: Tory party chairman says ‘painful woke psychodrama’ weakening the west
> 
> Complaining of 'groupthink' around, you know, ending police racism, people loving who they want, women being treated as human beings, but demanding a nationalistic groupthink to protect us from the Forriners instead.



Those Heritage Foundation guys are dodgy as fuck.


Speech is absolutely barking.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Feb 15, 2022)

Kaka Tim said:


> The Woke mafia cancelling Jim Davidson and it ain't half hot mum was a like a massive green light to putin.
> Obviously a nation so effete that it objects to overt racism in its popular culture will be too shandy pants to object to a military invasion of Ukraine.
> QED



I like how eagerly they've rushed to warn of the dangers of cancelling that footballer who yeeted his cat across the room.

Half the papers seem to be saying what a poor guy.

Absolutely insane.


----------



## tim (Feb 16, 2022)

Kaka Tim said:


> The Woke mafia cancelling Jim Davidson and it ain't half hot mum was a like a massive green light to putin.
> Obviously a nation so effete that it objects to overt racism in its popular culture will be too shandy pants to object to a military invasion of Ukraine.
> QED



If they were to make a programme like "It ain't half hot mum." today, the wokeratti would insist on there being at least one  non-binary character, the officer class would be effete nincompoops and, I fear, it show the British Army as a bunch of shirkers - unwilling to engage the enemy.


----------



## isvicthere? (Feb 16, 2022)

I´m not sure who is worse, the "woke mafia" or the "PC brigade".

Please enlighten me, urban.


----------



## Serge Forward (Feb 16, 2022)

You forgot to include "loony left" in any potential poll.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Feb 16, 2022)

Serge Forward said:


> You forgot to include "loony left" in any potential poll.



Liberal North London Elites.

Latte Liberals.


----------



## Fairweather (Feb 16, 2022)

I see this is getting them going today. 









						Inside the woke world of school headteacher who has banned meat
					

The meat ban comes after  Rachel Tomlinson (pictured) previously forbade teachers at the school from raising their voice and holds a belief that there is no such thing as a 'naughty' child.




					www.dailymail.co.uk


----------



## 8ball (Feb 17, 2022)

Fairweather said:


> I see this is getting them going today.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



"Empty resilience bucket" - that's quite brilliant.


----------



## 8ball (Feb 17, 2022)

isvicthere? said:


> I´m not sure who is worse, the "woke mafia" or the "PC brigade".
> 
> Please enlighten me, urban.



Definitely the woke mafia.
The PC brigade were a bit right-on, but they were useful when your graphics card was playing up.


----------



## eatmorecheese (Feb 17, 2022)

isvicthere? said:


> I´m not sure who is worse, the "woke mafia" or the "PC brigade".
> 
> Please enlighten me, urban.


The Yogurt Weaving Virtue Signallers are a splinter group, currently working on a debut album. Oliver Dowden will be sent a copy for the lols.


----------



## steeplejack (Feb 17, 2022)

eatmorecheese said:


> The Yogurt Weaving Virtue Signallers are a splinter group, currently working on a debut album. Oliver Dowden will be sent a copy for the lols.



I heard that It's a grime re-working of _Jerusalem_, too, funded by metrosexual _Guardianistas_ left at the DCMS from Cameron's time. Top trolling.


----------



## two sheds (Feb 20, 2022)

Attack on ‘woke’ charities has backfired, campaigners say
					

Exclusive: Rightwing campaign prompted charities to defend their work, leading to rise in public support




					www.theguardian.com
				







> A wave of attacks on “woke” charities by rightwing politicians has “backfired”, generating an outpouring of public support for the targeted charities and helping drive a surge in social justice activism, say campaigners.





> The findings of the Sheila McKechnie Foundation survey come as charities report huge concern over the “chilling” impact on civil society of a raft of proposed legislation designed to restrict public protest and legal challenge.





> However, the survey also found the attacks persuaded many charities to re-examine their mission and refocus on campaigning, and had revealed heartening public support for social activism. A third of charities said they were now “more likely to speak out”.





> In another high profile case, the RNLI – the UK’s national lifeboat charity – was accused by Nigel Farage, the former leader of the UK Independence party and Brexit party, of running a “migrant taxi service” for rescuing migrants at risk of drowning in the Channel. It robustly defended its work, and received massive public support and a surge in donations as a result..


 .


----------



## RainbowTown (Feb 20, 2022)

That is heartening to read. The attack on the RNLI was especially reprehensible, given that these men and women voluntarily risk their lives day in, day out to help save others.


----------



## tim (Feb 21, 2022)

Serge Forward said:


> You forgot to include "loony left" in any potential poll.


Linda Belos and Ken Livingstone where the pair most commonly castigated as loony lefties back on the 80s. Nowadays, GBnews loves them both.


----------



## Combustible (Feb 21, 2022)

tim said:


> If they were to make a programme like "It ain't half hot mum." today, the wokeratti would insist on there being at least one  non-binary character, the officer class would be effete nincompoops and, I fear, it show the British Army as a bunch of shirkers - unwilling to engage the enemy.


As was pointed out on Twitter, the main reason you wouldn't be able to make Only Fools and Horses these days is that it would be seen as insufficiently deferential to veterans.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Feb 21, 2022)

I love how it's always social justice at fault and not say, outsourcing every possible industry to China and India.


----------



## two sheds (Feb 21, 2022)

Private Eye had a cartoon showing Piers Morgan's door with a sign on saying "Preferred pronouns: I/Me"


----------



## marty21 (Feb 21, 2022)

two sheds said:


> Attack on ‘woke’ charities has backfired, campaigners say
> 
> 
> Exclusive: Rightwing campaign prompted charities to defend their work, leading to rise in public support
> ...


Excellent read , how someone can describe the National Trust as Marxist has always made laugh 😃


----------



## SpookyFrank (Feb 21, 2022)

marty21 said:


> Excellent read , how someone can describe the National Trust as Marxist has always made laugh 😃



These are all people who just say stuff and feel no obligation to think about it first. And then they get angry when their idiot rantings are ignored, and this anger in turn fuels more idiot rantings.

Ultimately it's all just rage against the dying of the light; or rather the dying of the days where you could insult jews and pakistanis in public without being tutted at by someone younger than you.


----------



## marty21 (Feb 21, 2022)

SpookyFrank said:


> These are all people who just say stuff and feel no obligation to think about it first. And then they get angry when their idiot rantings are ignored, and this anger in turn fuels more idiot rantings.
> 
> Ultimately it's all just rage against the dying of the light; or rather the dying of the days where you could insult jews and pakistanis in public without being tutted at by someone younger than you.


The whole National Trust thing was ridiculous, an organisation which looks after historical buildings & estates, looked into the history of those estates & found slave links , which is no surprise , and suddenly it is the vanguard of a Marxist revolution 🤔


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Feb 21, 2022)

marty21 said:


> The whole National Trust thing was ridiculous, an organisation which looks after historical buildings & estates, looked into the history of those estates & found slave links , which is no surprise , and suddenly it is the vanguard of a Marxist revolution 🤔



It really points up the degree to which 'history' is essentially just propaganda to these people doesn't it. None of that actual history thanks, with it's messy slave money and the like.


----------



## isvicthere? (Feb 21, 2022)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> It really points up the degree to which 'history' is essentially just propaganda to these people doesn't it. None of that actual history thanks, with it's messy slave money and the like.



When they say "history" they mean "national mythology (which must never be questioned)"


----------



## Artaxerxes (Feb 21, 2022)

isvicthere? said:


> When they say "history" they mean "national mythology (which must never be questioned)"



This from the latest British Archaelogy (discussing Colston) magazine really does sum it up.


----------



## belboid (Feb 21, 2022)

marty21 said:


> The whole National Trust thing was ridiculous, an organisation which looks after historical buildings & estates, looked into the history of those estates & found slave links , which is no surprise , and suddenly it is the vanguard of a Marxist revolution 🤔


It’s not just them being dim, though, it’s a wholly deliberate adoption of the Breivikian notion of cultural Marxism.   Anything that questions the powers that be, that encourages us to view history from the side of the losers….it’s a threat to our very way of life.


----------



## 8ball (Feb 21, 2022)

two sheds said:


> Private Eye had a cartoon showing Piers Morgan's door with a sign on saying "Preferred pronouns: I/Me"



Perfectly good pronouns tbf.


----------



## marty21 (Feb 21, 2022)

isvicthere? said:


> When they say "history" they mean "national mythology (which must never be questioned)"


Fluffy history , not the awkward stuff.


----------



## two sheds (Feb 21, 2022)

8ball said:


> Perfectly good pronouns tbf.


and in his case the only ones of importance


----------



## killer b (Feb 21, 2022)

I honestly don't think most of the culture war stuff is really about trying to challenge the social changes they claim they aim to challenge - fairly sure most of those things are changing whatever. It's about stirring up and creating/reinforcing a political/commercial bloc out of the segments of society most threatened by those changes. And to keep people on the left busy elsewhere. 

There's an interesting article by Will Davies in the LRB this week which touches on the culture war in higher education (it's an invaluable and bleak look into the contemporary higher education scene, though mostly probably for another thread)

This passage is relevant here though:

_since 2019, with the Treasury increasingly unhappy about the amount of student debt still sitting on the government’s balance sheet and the government resorting to ‘culture war’ at every opportunity, there has been an effort to single out degree programmes that represent ‘poor value for money’, measured in terms of graduate earnings. (For reasons best known to itself, the usually independent Institute for Fiscal Studies has been leading the way in finding correlations between degree programmes and future earnings.) Many of these programmes are in the arts and humanities, and are now habitually referred to by Tory politicians and their supporters in the media as ‘low-value degrees’.

But if the agenda is to reduce the number of young people studying humanities subjects, and to steer them instead towards STEM subjects, finance and business studies, the rhetoric is superfluous: the tuition fee hike, combined with the growing profile of league tables, had already worked its magic. The number of students studying English and modern languages at university fell by a third over the decade starting in 2011, and the number studying history by a fifth. In 2012, English was the most popular A level subject, with ninety thousand students taking the exam that summer; by 2021, that figure had fallen to 57,000. The number studying French and German at A level fell by around half over a similar period. Academic jobs – even whole departments – in these areas have been threatened by a combination of brute market forces and university managers beholden to ‘enterprise’ and ‘impact’._

Here as elsewhere, the culture was is about keeping people focused on one thing, while they run away with another. It doesn't matter to them that some people have reacted to right wing attacks on instutions by vocally and financially supporting those institutions: in fact it's a good thing as it keeps the war lively, keeps their base angry, keeps us distracted. Not sure what the answer is though, as not playing doesn't seem to be much of an option either.


----------



## Cloo (Jun 19, 2022)

Things that I have seen being called 'woke' lately:

Being interested in history
Talking about feelings
Eating healthily
Dinosaurs with feathers


----------



## 8ball (Jun 19, 2022)

Cloo said:


> Dinosaurs with feathers





“Eating healthily” is an interesting one too.  I saw “going to the gym” listed as a right-wing thing a while back, but fashions change very fast, maybe it is woke now.

Or maybe it’s politically neutral so long as you don’t go near the heavier weights.


----------



## Cloo (Jun 19, 2022)

Partly in response to this:


----------



## 8ball (Jun 19, 2022)

Cloo said:


> Partly in response to this:
> 
> View attachment 328099



I bet half of them had feathers too.


----------



## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Jun 19, 2022)

So woke is now. . .
Healthy living
Agreeing with science
Being aware you yours and other peoples feelings. 
Any attempt to educate yourself
Doing the right thing
Not being selfish
Not being sexist
Not being racist
Being concerned about the environment
Just generally trying to be a better person

How can it be spun that these are 'bad' things to roll your eyes at? 
So weird.


----------



## srb7677 (Jun 19, 2022)

Cloo said:


> Partly in response to this:
> 
> View attachment 328099


I suppose if they started calling each other nancy boys for looking a bit down, lived on massive fry ups, and hung posters on their canteen walls of bare breasted page 3 stunnas, the Mail would think "thank god for some sanity at last." Lol


----------



## Raheem (Jun 19, 2022)

Cloo said:


> Things that I have seen being called 'woke' lately:
> 
> Being interested in history
> Talking about feelings
> ...


I recently saw using the @ symbol in place of the word 'at' cited as woke. I guess, by a process of extension, it's anything that didn't used to happen.


----------



## 8ball (Jun 19, 2022)

Raheem said:


> I recently saw using the @ symbol in place of the word 'at' cited as woke. I guess, by a process of extension, it's anything that didn't used to happen.



<shakes fist at this new-fangled email thing>


----------



## 8ball (Jun 19, 2022)

Double-posts - also woke.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Jun 19, 2022)

You wonder what sort of demented psychopath is left in the definitely not woke camp now. Vladimir Putin exercises and has an interest in (a certain sort of history.) A handful of serial killers perhaps.


----------



## Cloo (Jun 19, 2022)

Raheem said:


> I guess, by a process of extension, it's anything that didn't used to happen.


Yes,  that's more or less what I was thinking. It's now 'anything daily mail readers don't like because it's not like how things ought to be done' - totally divorced from the concept of social justice.  And of course it's a fine blunt weapon as far as reactionary right wing governments like our own are concerned.


----------



## 8ball (Jun 19, 2022)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> You wonder what sort of demented psychopath is left in the definitely not woke camp now. Vladimir Putin exercises and has an interest in (a certain sort of history.) A handful of serial killers perhaps.



The error in your line of thinking lies in the assumption that something that is woke cannot be non-woke and/or anti-woke at the same time.

See ‘Glastonbury’ if you need an example of the non mutual exclusivity of the categories.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 20, 2022)

Posted this example of anti-woke ugliness on another thread recently; it's the kind of shit that is fucking everywhere now.




Basically, Disney has been under fire from bigots pretending to be concerned over their kids. Anyone who is pro-LGBT, pro-LGBT rights and for representation etc is now a "groomer". 

The kind of language is worrying and it's not concern, it's back to the horrible dark days of making LGBT negative and equating us with paedophiles. It's spreading & it's dangerous.


----------



## two sheds (Jun 20, 2022)

while it's actually the republicans who are forcing women to have the children of rapists, and good christians protecting priest and pastor abusers from the consequences of their actions


----------



## RD2003 (Jun 20, 2022)

ATOMIC SUPLEX said:


> So woke is now. . .
> Healthy living
> Agreeing with science
> Being aware you yours and other peoples feelings.
> ...


Quite easily. By sticking the middle finger up at more or less all of it, and just for the sake of it.*

A hell of a lot of people (possibly a majority) don't think along rational lines. Many just want to fuck off everybody, It's just the way it is.


*Note to people like Krtek: this isn't me.


----------



## tim (Jun 20, 2022)

Raheem said:


> I recently saw using the @ symbol in place of the word 'at' cited as woke. I guess, by a process of extension, it's anything that didn't used to happen.


Wheels are woke!


----------



## Storm Fox (Jun 20, 2022)

Cloo said:


> Partly in response to this:
> 
> View attachment 328099


So male mental health issues are a huge problem, the building trade is a largely male dominated area (This a discussion for a different day) and the stereotypical workplace of the tough mail. After a lot of effort by the mental health sector in de-stigmatising mental health issues and saying it's OK to talk about it to help people. The mail comes out with this 😠


----------



## existentialist (Jun 20, 2022)

Storm Fox said:


> So male mental health issues are a huge problem, the building trade is a largely male dominated area (This a discussion for a different day) and the stereotypical workplace of the tough mail. After a lot of effort by the mental health sector in de-stigmatising mental health issues and saying it's OK to talk about it to help people. The mail comes out with this 😠


Worrying about mental health is woke. We all managed just fine when we just told people to pull themselves together and snap out of it. See also: DWP PIP policy on mental health disorders.


----------



## Cloo (Jun 20, 2022)

Storm Fox said:


> So male mental health issues are a huge problem, the building trade is a largely male dominated area (This a discussion for a different day) and the stereotypical workplace of the tough mail. After a lot of effort by the mental health sector in de-stigmatising mental health issues and saying it's OK to talk about it to help people. The mail comes out with this 😠


Indeed - God forbid anyone tackle the terrible suicide rate in the construction industry.  How woke of people to discourage people from killing themselves.


----------



## pinkmonkey (Jun 20, 2022)

Cloo said:


> Things that I have seen being called 'woke' lately:
> 
> Being interested in history
> Talking about feelings
> ...


my all time fave (seen on Facebook, posted by a commenter on the Canal and River Trust page)
Litterpicking!  WTF?


----------



## Serge Forward (Jun 20, 2022)

pinkmonkey said:


> my all time fave (seen on Facebook, posted by a commenter on the Canal and River Trust page)
> Litterpicking!  WTF?


Well, "there is no society" dontcha know!


----------



## Storm Fox (Jun 20, 2022)

pinkmonkey said:


> my all time fave (seen on Facebook, posted by a commenter on the Canal and River Trust page)
> Litterpicking!  WTF?


I'm guessing it's also Woke not throwing your little everywhere in the first place.


----------



## Cloo (Jun 20, 2022)

My predictions on what will soon be declared 'woke':

Holidaying abroad
Fresh fruit and vegetables
Heating your home


----------



## brogdale (Jun 20, 2022)

Cloo said:


> My productions on what will soon be declared 'woke':
> 
> Holidaying abroad
> Fresh fruit and vegetables
> Heating your home


Expecting to be paid for work?


----------



## pinkmonkey (Jun 20, 2022)

Attempting to cook a meal for 30p


----------



## isvicthere? (Jun 20, 2022)

pinkmonkey said:


> Attempting to cook a meal for 30p



No, it's "woke" to suggest you CAN'T cook a meal for 30p.


----------



## pinkmonkey (Jun 20, 2022)

isvicthere? said:


> No, it's "woke" to suggest you CAN'T cook a meal for 39p.


Ah yes of course!


----------



## pinkmonkey (Jun 20, 2022)

I'm listening to a YT about Compost toilets - I have one on my boat. Someone commented that they're virtue signally idiocy. Close enough?


----------



## pinkmonkey (Jun 20, 2022)

Biodegradable dog poo bags - also woke culture.


----------



## Elpenor (Jun 20, 2022)

pinkmonkey said:


> Biodegradable dog poo bags - also woke culture.


Picking up dog shit is also woke.


----------



## chilango (Jun 20, 2022)

Elpenor said:


> Picking up dog shit is also woke.



Yeah these dog walkers virtue signalling with their dangling bags of dog shit.

Bet it's not even white dog shit like the good old days, eh?


----------



## Cloo (Jun 20, 2022)

This being considerate of other people is getting out of hand!


----------



## xenon (Jun 20, 2022)

ATOMIC SUPLEX said:


> So woke is now. . .
> Healthy living
> Agreeing with science
> Being aware you yours and other peoples feelings.
> ...



That's all fine but taking that list as a whole, as to describe what one is. I just thought yuk. I mean if you declared you were for all that out loud, you'd have a few people rolling their eyes at the cringey ernestness of it, maybe calling you woke.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jun 20, 2022)

pinkmonkey said:


> Biodegradable dog poo bags - also woke culture.



Plastic dog poo bags on trees are treats for the kids!


----------



## chilango (Jun 20, 2022)

None of these are funnier, or dafter, than Spiked tried to claim that Al Qaeda were woke.


----------



## Rob Ray (Jun 20, 2022)

I knew it'd be Brendan before I even clicked. His ability to talk absolute nonsense with absolute confidence is one of the wonders of modern ... not journalism, er ... social effluent I guess?


----------



## LDC (Jun 20, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> I knew it'd be Brendan before I even clicked. His ability to talk absolute nonsense with absolute confidence is one of the wonders of modern ... not journalism, er ... social effluent I guess?



No! Surely not! I mean this in the article is spectacular iconoclastic thinking....

"His reign of terror can be seen as a violent manifestation of what has since come to be known as wokeness." 

One minute you're asking someone's pronoun, the next you're committing globally significant acts of terror that kill thousands.


----------



## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Jun 20, 2022)

xenon said:


> That's all fine but taking that list as a whole, as to describe what one is. I just thought yuk. I mean if you declared you were for all that out loud, you'd have a few people rolling their eyes at the cringey ernestness of it, maybe calling you woke.


You don't have to declare it out loud. I am almost certainly into all of those things, but perhaps forget other peoples feelings from time time. 
The problem is more that anyone is attacking any of it. Sure you can list the whole thing and someone will roll their eyes and sarcastically say "wow you're so great", but politicians, leaders and political ideologies should be down with all these things, and shouldn't be afraid or ashamed of doing the right thing. 

If I blabbed on about helping out in the community, fund-raising and helping my neighbours if they are in difficulty, you might call me a 'flipping goody goody', but it's a bit bonkers to attack someone for it on a political level . . . but here we are.


----------



## NoXion (Jun 20, 2022)

Cloo said:


> Partly in response to this:
> 
> View attachment 328099



I know that the Daily Mail are trying to make anti-woke hay out of this, but if that study is at all representative, then that headline is the mardy death rattle of the old world passing on. They're literally mad about the fact that "builders", those pillars of oldschool rough-and-tumble toxic masculinity in their worldview, are nowadays often prepared to emotionally open up to their co-workers, as well as having close to coin flip odds of engaging in more academic interests.

Sounds like relatively good news to me, and I doubt that UK tradesmen are going to change their work habits and interests just because the Daily Mail gets their starched bloomers in a twist about them.


----------



## Rob Ray (Jun 20, 2022)

The thing is to flip it, I'd think. Such as:

I'm against living healthily, disagree with science, dgaf about other people's feelings, am proud of my lack of education and don't care about doing the right thing. I'm quite happy to be openly selfish, sexist and racist, I couldn't care less about the environment and I'm not interested in "being a better person."

If this sounds like a sociopathic attitude, that's yer state of play on the panicky right atm.


----------



## Storm Fox (Jun 20, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> The thing is to flip it, I'd think. Such as:
> 
> I'm against living healthily, disagree with science, dgaf about other people's feelings, am proud of my lack of education and don't care about doing the right thing. I'm quite happy to be openly selfish, sexist and racist, I couldn't care less about the environment and I'm not interested in "being a better person."
> 
> If this sounds like a sociopathic attitude, that's yer state of play on the panicky right atm.


So Tory then


----------



## Cloo (Jun 20, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> The thing is to flip it, I'd think. Such as:
> 
> I'm against living healthily, disagree with science, dgaf about other people's feelings, am proud of my lack of education and don't care about doing the right thing. I'm quite happy to be openly selfish, sexist and racist, I couldn't care less about the environment and I'm not interested in "being a better person."
> 
> If this sounds like a sociopathic attitude, that's yer state of play on the panicky right atm.


Well it's like the great idea I heard when people used to go on about 'political correctness'. Just replace 'political correctness' (or indeed 'wokeness') with 'treating people decently'. 

'All this treating people decently has gone too far!'


----------



## two sheds (Jun 20, 2022)

Yes "being polite" used to be a good thing until it was to be applied to non-white, non-straight, non-male people too.


----------



## Rob Ray (Jun 20, 2022)

Honestly the real problem with being "decent" and "polite" is that people expect you to do it _all the time._ You make one slip up and call someone a racial slur or demand someone show you their genitals before they use the loo and people jump down your throat. I give money to the NSPCC dammit!


----------



## 8ball (Jun 20, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> The thing is to flip it, I'd think. Such as:
> 
> I'm against living healthily, disagree with science, dgaf about other people's feelings, am proud of my lack of education and don't care about doing the right thing. I'm quite happy to be openly selfish, sexist and racist, I couldn't care less about the environment and I'm not interested in "being a better person."
> 
> If this sounds like a sociopathic attitude, that's yer state of play on the panicky right atm.



Wtf is “disagree with science” meant to mean, anyway? 

And very few people are interested in being a better person.  Not nearly as many as those who are interested in appearing to be a good person in front of others.


----------



## Rob Ray (Jun 20, 2022)

Almost everyone wants to appear to be a good person, at least in front of those they care about or who are useful to them, so yes I imagine they're more numerous than those who genuinely want to be better people. I don't think the latter are as rare as all that though - most people manage to be passably decent, most of the time, given their circumstances and beliefs, in the face of being brought up within a really very individualist and ideologically nasty system.


----------



## 8ball (Jun 20, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> Almost everyone wants to appear to be a good person, at least in front of those they care about or who are useful to them, so yes I imagine they're more numerous than those who genuinely want to be better people. I don't think the latter are as rare as all that though.



It's good to face Mondays with optimism.


----------



## Chilli.s (Jun 20, 2022)

being anti woke is just feeble justification for being a cunt


----------



## xenon (Jun 20, 2022)

ATOMIC SUPLEX said:


> You don't have to declare it out loud. I am almost certainly into all of those things, but perhaps forget other peoples feelings from time time.
> The problem is more that anyone is attacking any of it. Sure you can list the whole thing and someone will roll their eyes and sarcastically say "wow you're so great", but politicians, leaders and political ideologies should be down with all these things, and shouldn't be afraid or ashamed of doing the right thing.
> 
> If I blabbed on about helping out in the community, fund-raising and helping my neighbours if they are in difficulty, you might call me a 'flipping goody goody', but it's a bit bonkers to attack someone for it on a political level . . . but here we are.



But I think that's what's being weaponised. An individual picking up litter isn't going to be offensive to anyone but these acts have been roled into a characature of the do gooder, stopping old fashioned fun things, language policing etc.

The public are receptive because most people find a po faced hectering do gooder iritating. (see annoying student language policing stories that barely warrent coverage beyond the campus.) The UK is mostly small c conservative still.
It's useful It for keeping contrarian or out of touch dull old gammony bloke journos in a job. People still publish Richard fucking Littlejohn. FFS.
It's cheap for newspapers to produce. 
The right weaponise it to distract or capitalise on populist sentiment.


----------



## 8ball (Jun 20, 2022)

xenon said:


> An individual picking up litter isn't going to be offensive to anyone...



We're getting dangerously close to woke bunting territory.


----------



## chilango (Jun 20, 2022)

Chilli.s said:


> being anti woke is just feeble justification for being a cunt


That's basically it. It's "ethical" cover for selfish, anti-social and bigoted acts from people whose self-esteem is too fragile to own being a cunt.


----------



## tim (Jun 20, 2022)

chilango said:


> None of these are funnier, or dafter, than Spiked tried to claim that Al Qaeda were woke.




The wokerlists at Spiked blocked me for making sarcastic comments about their guru. If, they'd asked me I would have been willing to preface future Tweets about Furedi with  a trigger warning.


----------



## 8ball (Jun 20, 2022)

tim said:


> The wokerlists at Spiked blocked me for making sarcastic comments about their guru...



That's not very free-speechy.


----------



## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Jun 20, 2022)

xenon said:


> The right weaponise it to distract or capitalise on populist sentiment.


True enough. Who wants to be told ice creams, beer and no exercise make you fat?


----------



## 8ball (Jun 20, 2022)

ATOMIC SUPLEX said:


> True enough. Who wants to be told ice creams, beer and no exercise make you fat?



The fat acceptance movement?


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Jun 20, 2022)

ATOMIC SUPLEX said:


> True enough. Who wants to be told ice creams, beer and no exercise make you fat?



Paradoxically not being a relentless cunt to anyone who's a bit overweight is definitely 'woke'. 

Although there's a handy anti-woke misogyny element in that they can take advantage of.


----------



## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Jun 20, 2022)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> Paradoxically not being a relentless cunt to anyone who's a bit overweight is definitely 'woke'.
> 
> Although there's a handy anti-woke misogyny element in that they can take advantage of.


Well obviously you don't have to shout it from the rooftops. I was thinking more in terms of science fact that nobody wants to be reminded of. 
Maybe . . . 
"Suns out, isn't it great!! but do take care, put on sun cream as it can cause skin cancer"
"Bloody woke do gooders, spoiling it for everyone with science rules. . .we didn't have this when we was kids"


----------



## 8ball (Jun 20, 2022)

ATOMIC SUPLEX said:


> Well obviously you don't have to shout it from the rooftops. I was thinking more in terms of science fact that nobody wants to be reminded of.
> Maybe . . .
> "Suns out, isn't it great!! but do take care, put on sun cream as it can cause skin cancer"
> "Bloody woke do gooders, spoiling it for everyone with science rules. . .we didn't have this when we was kids"



I've totally missed the sunscreen element of the culture war.
Then again, I think you'd be about 80 or older to have not had sun cream about when you were a kid.

These octogenarians are notorious for their un-woke ways.


----------



## MrSki (Jun 20, 2022)

Cloo said:


> Partly in response to this:
> 
> View attachment 328099


----------



## 8ball (Jun 20, 2022)

Incidentally, I learned what Sayre’s Law was yesterday.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 20, 2022)

MrSki said:


>



Liked, apart from the "taking the Mick" bit


----------



## two sheds (Jun 20, 2022)

krtek a houby said:


> Liked, apart from the "taking the Mick" bit


not sure:

"_Rhyming slang is a type of slang that replaces words with rhyming words or phrases, typically with the rhyming element omitted. For example, in the phrase not to have a scooby, scooby, rhyming slang for clue, is short for Scooby Doo, the name of a cartoon dog which features in several U.S. television series and films.

Mickey_, also _Mike_, short for _Michael_, appear in _Mickey Bliss_, also _Mike Bliss_ (or simply _Mickey_, also _Mike_), rhyming slang for the noun _piss_, urine, act of urination " ?









						‘to take the mickey out of someone’: meaning and origin
					

UK, 1891—‘to take the mickey (or ‘the mike’) out of’: ‘to tease or ridicule’—probably after ‘Mickey (or ‘Mike’) Bliss’, rhyming slang for ‘piss’




					wordhistories.net


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 20, 2022)

two sheds said:


> not sure:
> 
> "_Rhyming slang is a type of slang that replaces words with rhyming words or phrases, typically with the rhyming element omitted. For example, in the phrase not to have a scooby, scooby, rhyming slang for clue, is short for Scooby Doo, the name of a cartoon dog which features in several U.S. television series and films.
> 
> ...



Am aware of that side to it, yeah.

It's a term that is... open to interpretation and used maliciously by some... IME


----------



## two sheds (Jun 20, 2022)

fair play, hadn't realized that side of it


----------



## 8ball (Jun 20, 2022)

Mike Bliss the NASCAR driver?


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 20, 2022)

two sheds said:


> fair play, hadn't realized that side of it



Most don't use it in derogatory fashion, but it can be. 

First exposed to the malicious use years ago and was taken aback. Had used it in the past but the penny kind of dropped, at that moment.

Anyway. An otherwise admirable reply to the Mail from the union fella.


----------



## killer b (Jun 20, 2022)

Hang on, why 'otherwise'? The guy isn't being racist, he's using the not-racist term 'taking the mick' in it's normal and commonly understood non racist way.


----------



## 8ball (Jun 20, 2022)

killer b said:


> Hang on, why 'otherwise'? The guy isn't being racist, he's using the not-racist term 'taking the mick' in it's normal and commonly understood non racist way.



Hard to know what he’s thinking, though, innit?


----------



## killer b (Jun 20, 2022)

He's thinking 'taking the mick'. The only time it's racist is when a racist is using it to be racist to someone Irish. Any other time its just taking the mick.


----------



## Almor (Jun 20, 2022)

Cloo said:


> Things that I have seen being called 'woke' lately:
> 
> Being interested in history


Presumably it's not woke to be interested in history in the form of imperialist/confederate statues (or a local equivalent) though? Asking for a not-racist aunt and uncle


----------



## 8ball (Jun 20, 2022)

Almor said:


> Presumably it's not woke to be interested in history in the form of imperialist/confederate statues (or a local equivalent) though? Asking for a not-racist aunt and uncle



That’s woke so long as you’re not pro-slavery.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 20, 2022)

The IRA had a marvelous peak woke moment as far back as '66, when it came to statues


----------



## Serge Forward (Jun 21, 2022)

Er... I always thought taking the mick was from micturation.


----------



## Boris Sprinkler (Jun 21, 2022)

Yes. As explained to me by my Irish mother


----------



## platinumsage (Jun 21, 2022)

“taking” has very colonialist roots though.


----------



## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Jun 21, 2022)

I'm just happy to hear about the mickey bliss rhyming slang (always said Michael / mickey myself anyway).


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Jun 21, 2022)

Almor said:


> Presumably it's not woke to be interested in history in the form of imperialist/confederate statues (or a local equivalent) though? Asking for a not-racist aunt and uncle



I expect they get around that by having no real interest in the actual history at all tbh.


----------



## Boris Sprinkler (Jun 21, 2022)

I would quite like a conversation with a Tory, about pride flags they like to display this time of year.
I would feign ignorance of the flag and have them explain it to me. Like I'm 5. So I could ask awkward questions that I should have been asking at 12 years old, except I wasn't allowed to learn about it.


----------



## 8ball (Jun 21, 2022)

platinumsage said:


> “taking” has very colonialist roots though.



Decolonise the piss!


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Jun 21, 2022)

My favourite one was hearing e bikes and e scooters described as woke because they're more eco friendly than petrol powered vehicles.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 22, 2022)

Serge Forward said:


> Er... I always thought taking the mick was from micturation.


That, too.

However, it is/has been used in a derogatory fashion over the years.

Guess it's up to the user, what's intended (or not intended) at the end of the day.


----------



## 8ball (Jun 22, 2022)

krtek a houby said:


> Guess it's up to the user, what's intended (or not intended) at the end of the day.



Best they clearly indicate their intention, to avoid causing confusion.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 22, 2022)

8ball said:


> Best they clearly indicate their intention, to avoid causing confusion.



Could substitute with Michael or piss, perhaps


----------



## 8ball (Jun 22, 2022)

krtek a houby said:


> Could substitute with Michael or piss, perhaps



Or mickey(r), mickey(nr) or mickey(pd).


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 22, 2022)

Have known a few randoms over the years, who, having been explained that a certain term is offensive to some, still carry on using them.

Meh


----------



## 8ball (Jun 22, 2022)

krtek a houby said:


> Have known a few randoms over the years, who, having been explained that a certain term is offensive to some, still carry on using them.
> 
> Meh



Guess it depends on the “some”.  They might not believe it is offensive to a significant number of a group, may avoid using such a term in front of members of that group, or may just use it in front of you to underline that they are not willing to be told what they can or cannot say.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 22, 2022)

8ball said:


> Guess it depends on the “some”.  They might not believe it is offensive to a significant number of a group, may avoid using such a term in front of members of that group, or may just use it in front of you to underline that they are not willing to be told what they can or cannot say.


For sure. But reckon it's not telling folks what they can or cannot say, more like pointing out words or phrases that cause discomfort.


----------



## NoXion (Jul 16, 2022)

Apparently, "not dying of heat stroke" is now a bunch of wokery.


----------



## Cloo (Jul 16, 2022)

Saw a twitter thread about someone who was speaking to votes in the Rother Valley about their priorities and... suprise, surprise, combatting treating people decently... I mean 'wokeness' features nowhere on their priorities. People really do have more important shit to think about.


----------



## 8ball (Jul 16, 2022)

Cloo said:


> Saw a twitter thread about someone who was speaking to votes in the Rother Valley about their priorities and... suprise, surprise, combatting treating people decently... I mean 'wokeness' features nowhere on their priorities. People really do have more important shit to think about.



I’ll assume you meant “voters” above, but I wouldn’t put that phrasing past politicians these days tbf.


----------



## 8ball (Jul 16, 2022)

NoXion said:


> Apparently, "not dying of heat stroke" is now a bunch of wokery.



Wow.  Wokery is incredibly adaptable.
I can see why they’re scared.

Those huts we had the science lessons in - that doesn’t bear thinking about in the kinds of temperatures they’re talking about…


----------



## Ax^ (Jul 16, 2022)

hmm aye back in my day no one worried about kids on hot days and sports days

i remember fondly my last school sports day when i was about 13 in july sun and policy was not to let the kids inside during the day
so me and my ginger hair spent 9 hours out in the sun

and could not walk for 3 days afterwards due to the sun burn had blisters over 60 percent of my body

damn Wokies taking that experience away from kids


----------



## 8ball (Jul 16, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> hmm aye back in my day no one worried about kids on hot days and sports days
> 
> i remember fondly my last school sports day when i was about 13 in july sun and policy was not to let the kids inside during the day
> so me and my ginger hair spent 9 hours out in the sun
> ...



Kinda makes sense what Cloo was saying about it being low on the priority list when even those who know the word seem to have no idea what it means.

And yes, totally agree about treating kids decently in this heat.


----------



## Ax^ (Jul 16, 2022)

people who tend to  ramble on about the word woke tend just to be confused by the world,
and want something to shout about "change being bad"

amazing how  its always like reading or listening to the 4 yorkshire men skit over and over


----------



## Humberto (Jul 17, 2022)

There is no access to 'respectability'. And they side with barbarians.


----------



## 8ball (Jul 17, 2022)

#notallbarbarians


----------



## Humberto (Jul 17, 2022)

8ball said:


> #notallbarbarians



Dangerous.


----------



## 8ball (Jul 17, 2022)

Humberto said:


> Dangerous.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Jul 17, 2022)

NoXion said:


> Apparently, "not dying of heat stroke" is now a bunch of wokery.



This guy used to be in the department for energy and climate change

Lincolnshire MP calls those taking heatwave precautions 'snowflakes' and 'cowards'.









						Lincs MP calls people 'snowflakes' and 'cowards' amid heatwave
					

A 'red extreme heat warning' has been issued by the Met Office




					www.lincolnshirelive.co.uk


----------



## Storm Fox (Jul 17, 2022)

Well if they admit people need to take precautions in record temperatures, they'll have to admit this is unusual and climate change is real and would have to do something about it. So it is easier just to call everyone else wokey snowflakes.

The Lincolnshire MP should go out on a bin emptying run in this weather and then when he collapses, ask him who's the snowflake now.


----------



## keybored (Jul 17, 2022)

Artaxerxes said:


> Plastic dog poo bags on trees are treats for the kids!


This, apples are for woke kids.


----------



## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Jul 17, 2022)

People have 'woken' up to the fact that kids get dangerously hot in blazers, jumpers and ties during a heat wave, and that isn't a 'good thing'?
'back in my day' etc etc


----------



## rubbershoes (Jul 17, 2022)

ATOMIC SUPLEX said:


> People have 'woken' up to the fact that kids get dangerously hot in blazers, jumpers and ties during a heat wave, and that isn't a 'good thing'?
> 'back in my day' etc etc



My son's school allowed pupils to wear PE kit all last week. 

But said they had to wear their blazers too  🍗


----------



## Chilli.s (Jul 17, 2022)

I consistently find that blathering about wokeisms is a sign of an absolute cunt


----------



## isvicthere? (Jul 17, 2022)

ATOMIC SUPLEX said:


> People have 'woken' up to the fact that kids get dangerously hot in blazers, jumpers and ties during a heat wave, and that isn't a 'good thing'?
> 'back in my day' etc etc



Anyone who doesn´t require kids always to wear school uniform is doing Putin´s work and urinating on the Cenotaph! PC gorn maaaad blah blah.... where will it all end blah blah?.....


----------



## NoXion (Jul 17, 2022)

rubbershoes said:


> My son's school allowed pupils to wear PE kit all last week.
> 
> But said they had to wear their blazers too  🍗



 It's absolutely _not_ blazer weather. Especially since school blazers tend to be made out of that nasty, sweaty polyester shit.


----------



## Storm Fox (Jul 17, 2022)

I don't understand why headteachers do this. It makes the pupils uncomfortable at best and could possibly make them ill. Plus it's teaching inflexibility which isn't great for a modern workplace.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jul 17, 2022)

Storm Fox said:


> I don't understand why headteachers do this. It makes the pupils uncomfortable at best and could possibly make them ill. Plus it's teaching inflexibility which isn't great for a modern workplace.




Perfect for prepping Amazon drones


----------



## NoXion (Jul 17, 2022)

Storm Fox said:


> I don't understand why headteachers do this. It makes the pupils uncomfortable at best and could possibly make them ill. Plus it's teaching inflexibility which isn't great for a modern workplace.



If they wanted to actually use clothing habits to prepare kids for the modern workplace, then they would abolish uniforms and replace them with a vaguely-defined "smart casual" dress code, if even that. I'm pretty sure the next time I head into the office, I could wear a big T-shirt with a heavy metal band logo on it, and black baggy cargo trousers with a shiny chain, and nobody would pull me up on it.

Also, in all those workplaces where I _was_ required to wear a uniform, I'm pretty sure it was provided for free by the employer, and I only ever had to pay if I failed to return any items of said uniform once my employment ended. But from what I hear, school uniforms have to be paid for by the parents? What an absolute swindle.

Judging from all the bullshit that schools give pupils over perfectly inoffensive haircuts, I'd say that schools have a serious problem with headteachers and administrators using their pupils' appearance as a drawing board for either their toxic "skool daze" nostalgia and/or their psychotic control freak tendencies.


----------



## xenon (Jul 17, 2022)

Some Tory mouthbreathing maggot called Krishna Guru Murphy woke and lefty re hosting C4's Tory leadership debate.

So add that to list. Woke + socialist = talking over Torie, a bit.


----------



## xenon (Jul 17, 2022)

Ties should be banned though. Or at least mocked for the fucking ridiculous bits of attire they obviously are.


----------



## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Jul 17, 2022)

NoXion said:


> It's absolutely _not_ blazer weather. Especially since school blazers tend to be made out of that nasty, sweaty polyester shit.


It usually takes something quite special for my daughters school to tell them not to wear blazers. I think that is the norm now. 

I tried to ask my school about the PE kit thing. My daughters PE kit is practically black, but also, like most people, she only has one set. If she wears that on Monday I can't wash it for Tuesday (though to be honest I supposed I could probably could hand wash it and dry it in the heat by he time she leaves at 7.30 am.)


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## existentialist (Jul 17, 2022)

Storm Fox said:


> I don't understand why headteachers do this. It makes the pupils uncomfortable at best and could possibly make them ill. Plus it's teaching inflexibility which isn't great for a modern workplace.


They do it because that's the culture, and they daren't step - or even - look outside the embedded assumptions that go with that culture.


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## NoXion (Jul 17, 2022)

xenon said:


> Ties should be banned though. Or at least mocked for the fucking ridiculous bits of attire they obviously are.



My local comprehensive secondary got rid of the blazers, shirts and ties after I was there for a couple of years, this would have been back in the early 2000s I think. They got replaced with jumpers and polo shirts. Those were much better.


----------



## rubbershoes (Jul 17, 2022)

xenon said:


> Ties should be banned though. Or at least mocked for the fucking ridiculous bits of attire they obviously are.



They're dying in much of the business world


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## Rob Ray (Jul 17, 2022)

Definitely don't see them so often if wandering around the City any more, though the suit and pastel coloured shirt remains ubiquitous.


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## Dogsauce (Jul 17, 2022)

NoXion said:


> My local comprehensive secondary got rid of the blazers, shirts and ties after I was there for a couple of years, this would have been back in the early 2000s I think. They got replaced with jumpers and polo shirts. Those were much better.


That’s obviously woke though. Quite a lot of schools have gone back to ‘traditional’ uniforms because of the Tory obsession with turning things back to the good old 1959s, plus it attracts posh parents and their achieving offspring. My Neice’s school had gone all Harry Potter with blazers etc. when it just used to be jumpers, and the kids hate it.


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## Puddy_Tat (Jul 17, 2022)

Dogsauce said:


> plus it attracts posh parents and their achieving offspring.



and if they make the uniform only available through one or two selected suppliers, and expensive enough, it weeds out the plebs


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## isvicthere? (Jul 18, 2022)

This wokeness, it´s everywhere.....









						Revealed: How a once-thriving Northern town was ruined by wokeness
					

ONCE, the South Yorkshire town of Cleckburton was a thriving industrial hub. Today its shops are boarded up and there are no job, hopes or prospects for its inhabitants.




					www.thedailymash.co.uk


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## platinumsage (Aug 8, 2022)

From Urban’s second-favourite tabloid:

”The York Dungeon has refused to change the name of its newest ride. Woke parents said the name of the Dick Turpin carriage ride was offensive and so should be changed to Richard”


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## isvicthere? (Aug 9, 2022)

platinumsage said:


> From Urban’s second-favourite tabloid:
> 
> ”The York Dungeon has refused to change the name of its newest ride. Woke parents said the name of the Dick Turpin carriage ride was offensive and so should be changed to Richard”


 
"Woke", which - let´s not forget - originally just meant open-minded, aware, tolerant, has been co-opted by the lazy right, in lieu of having an argument, to mean pretty much anything they don´t like. How is it "woke" for parents not to want to their young children to hear the word "Dick" for example? I´ve said this before, but when people who sloppily use this term are asked to provide an example of "wokeness" their answer is always either a) vanishingly trivial, or b) entirely fictional, or c) they get angry for lack of being able to provide one and say something like "you´re not allowed to say anything any more" (to your face) or "you´re a nonce" (online).


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## two sheds (Aug 9, 2022)

It along with politically correct used to be called 'polite' when they wanted it for themselves.


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## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Aug 9, 2022)

I saw a comment on a match report earlier describing cancelling the classified football results readout as 'woke'. OK it's just one idiot on a message board but it struck me as a good example of how flexible it is. It's not happened because every single person who might want to listen to them has already checked the scores on their phone, it's communists or something. Damn modern world.


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## The39thStep (Aug 9, 2022)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> I saw a comment on a match report earlier describing cancelling the classified football results readout as 'woke'. OK it's just one idiot on a message board but it struck me as a good example of how flexible it is. It's not happened because every single person who might want to listen to them has already checked the scores on their phone, it's communists or something. Damn modern world.


Thats barmy , on Twitter it was the old fogey dinosaur left like me that were having a go at the BBC


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## platinumsage (Aug 9, 2022)

It seems to mean "change that I don't agree with".


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## DotCommunist (Aug 9, 2022)

its handy that you can call things 'woke' as if you have to get into specifics its either 'people objecting to my loud racism/other bigotry' or picayune shit like 'they wanted to change the name of the fairground ride'. Better to pretend theres some grand movement or sweeping social change called 'wokeness'


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## 8ball (Aug 9, 2022)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> I saw a comment on a match report earlier describing cancelling the classified football results readout as 'woke'.



What happens now, do they just read out a statement each time saying "prizes were distributed in an equitable manner to all participants"?


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## Karl Masks (Aug 9, 2022)

woke is a like a puddle. The water pours in to fit whatever shape. The shape in question being a crack in our society and how it works, or should work


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## Cloo (Aug 9, 2022)

platinumsage said:


> From Urban’s second-favourite tabloid:
> 
> ”The York Dungeon has refused to change the name of its newest ride. Woke parents said the name of the Dick Turpin carriage ride was offensive and so should be changed to Richard”


That's prudishness, not wokeness, plus it's a total non story that presumably one person made a stupid suggestion.


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## 8ball (Aug 9, 2022)

Richard Turpin.


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## Cloo (Aug 13, 2022)

I've just been thinking that all this complaining about 'wokeness' is presumably not that much different than pearl-clutching about the 'Loony left' in the 80s.

People were complaining about the excesses of 'Loony left' councils and how everything was all about black disabled lesbians now, and oh my God, look at those smelly lefty students, they're going to wreck society when they're in charge with their crazy ideas. The same old same old from the wealthy and empowered that 'Oh no, we are powerless against these Lefties, look they're taking over'.

And they didn't take over, although I would say the 'Loony Left', though very much not without its faults, did start to bring about some good stuff - eg, taking seriously the funding of minority groups (as my mum witness on the London Borough Grants Committee in that era - she was on the Tory side), and combatting racism, sexism and homophobia. I dare say others would complain that it was the start of 'identity politics' that is apparently too divisive and we should stop talking about because all the differences will go away if we ignore them.


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## isvicthere? (Aug 14, 2022)

Cloo said:


> I've just been thinking that all this complaining about 'wokeness' is presumably not that much different than pearl-clutching about the 'Loony left' in the 80s.
> 
> People were complaining about the excesses of 'Loony left' councils and how everything was all about black disabled lesbians now, and oh my God, look at those smelly lefty students, they're going to wreck society when they're in charge with their crazy ideas. The same old same old from the wealthy and empowered that 'Oh no, we are powerless against these Lefties, look they're taking over'.
> 
> And they didn't take over, although I would say the 'Loony Left', though very much not without its faults, did start to bring about some good stuff - eg, taking seriously the funding of minority groups (as my mum witness on the London Borough Grants Committee in that era - she was on the Tory side), and combatting racism, sexism and homophobia. I dare say others would complain that it was the start of 'identity politics' that is apparently too divisive and we should stop talking about because all the differences will go away if we ignore them.



^^^^ this. It´s what the right always do. In the absence of, y´know... _having an argument_, they resort to these lazy hate terms. Check also: virtue signalling, PC (gorn maaaad), tree hugger, snowflake, remoaner, feminazi &c. &c. &c.

ETA: I think where "woke" differs is that it is more encompassing. The terms you and I have mentioned largely are restricted to the struggle for equality by minorities. "Woke" has the novelty of meaning pretty much anything a Mail/Express reader dislikes. So, a parent (allegedly) asking for their child not to have to hear the word "Dick" is "woke"; the decision (alleged by a caller on James O´Brien) by an Islamic community centre to "ban" bacon in its canteen (probably actually to withdraw it because there was no demand for it) is "woke"; even speed cameras, you guessed it, are "woke".


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## Kevbad the Bad (Aug 14, 2022)

So, vegan egg alternative:- woke yolk?


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## AmateurAgitator (Aug 14, 2022)

I do think changing the name of something from Dick Turpin to Richard Turpin is daft though.


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## two sheds (Aug 14, 2022)

More likely to be Christian morality types than woke isn't it though?


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## isvicthere? (Aug 14, 2022)

AmateurAgitator said:


> I do think changing the name of something from Dick Turpin to Richard Turpin is daft though.



No doubt. But spinning into an exemplar of an all-encompassing conspiracy that is destroying everything "we" hold dear is dafter.


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## AmateurAgitator (Aug 14, 2022)

isvicthere? said:


> No doubt. But spinning into an exemplar of an all-encompassing conspiracy that is destroying everything "we" hold dear is dafter.


Well yeah, this is true.


----------



## LeytonCatLady (Aug 14, 2022)

isvicthere? said:


> "Woke", which - let´s not forget - originally just meant open-minded, aware, tolerant, has been co-opted by the lazy right, in lieu of having an argument, to mean pretty much anything they don´t like. How is it "woke" for parents not to want to their young children to hear the word "Dick" for example? I´ve said this before, but when people who sloppily use this term are asked to provide an example of "wokeness" their answer is always either a) vanishingly trivial, or b) entirely fictional, or c) they get angry for lack of being able to provide one and say something like "you´re not allowed to say anything any more" (to your face) or "you´re a nonce" (online).


One of my favourite Stewart Lee jokes involves his nan at the hairdressers. She complains that they won’t serve her a cup of tea under the dryer, and says it’s ‘political correctness gone mad’, to which he points out that she’s confusing political correctness with health & safety.


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## DotCommunist (Aug 14, 2022)

there was a genuine perfect made up from nearly whole cloth one about banning rule brittania from the proms recently. It was a suggestion about changing the music from one musician at a meeting and quickly dismissed. By the end of the week the woke left had cancelled the proms (I mean, I would, but thats not the point here)


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## Cloo (Aug 14, 2022)

Oh, it's definitely gone 'loony left'  > 'political correctness' > 'woke'.

But yes,  lots of random shit seems to have been wrapped up in 'wokeness' by people who haven't got a clue what they're talking about.


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## LeytonCatLady (Aug 14, 2022)

Cloo said:


> Oh, it's definitely gone 'loony left'  > 'political correctness' > 'woke'.
> 
> But yes,  lots of random shit seems to have been wrapped up in 'wokeness' by people who haven't got a clue what they're talking about.


One of the days during the July heatwave, I think a school got labelled "woke" for sending the kids home. Like, what's closing due to extreme temperatures got to do with wokeness???


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## Artaxerxes (Aug 14, 2022)

LeytonCatLady said:


> One of the days during the July heatwave, I think a school got labelled "woke" for sending the kids home. Like, what's closing due to extreme temperatures got to do with wokeness???



Mutter mutter 1976 best year of my life mutter


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## nino_savatte (Aug 14, 2022)

Even Gorgeous has railed against "woke"; a sign that he's spent too much time around rabid right-wingers. He even repeats the same language used by the likes of Looza, Dug Murray and Sp*ked.


Here he is calling Fox a "fine actor". For someone who claims to be so working class, he spends a great deal of his time kissing upper middle class arse.


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## chilango (Aug 14, 2022)

I think we're at the point where neutralising the term would be pretty easy.

Like ETH's woke tactics cost United yesterday.


I tried.making this woke Fat Bikers recipe for dinner. It wasn't very successful.


I need some new jeans. Tried some on in TK but they were too woke for me.

...and so on.


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## stdP (Aug 14, 2022)

Cloo said:


> Oh, it's definitely gone 'loony left'  > 'political correctness' > 'woke'.
> 
> But yes,  lots of random shit seems to have been wrapped up in 'wokeness' by people who haven't got a clue what they're talking about.



This is certainly the exact same trajectory my true blue family's lexicon has followed over the decades (although I might say it also deserves a 'political correctness gone mad' between the last two); I'm not sure if it's torygraph-specific or common to all the right-wing rags. As an Aunt Sally it's straight out of the Goebbels school of statesmanship - tell a lie often enough and people will believe it - and so vague as to be extensible to whatever your personal pet hates are. As my overworked and overwrought headline generator might call it (sadly I don't think much rhymes with Turpin):


> Dick Turpin - Invoke Clickbait Smoke Shtick to Cloak Thick Folk from Slick Woke Bloke Joke



It's fair to say that if the term woke appears in a headline or the first paragraph, then the paper's not one I'd be happy to have my chips wrapped up in.

My father was genuinely surprised when I said I wouldn't be voting for Lawrence Fucks for Mayor of London, who apparently was the only sane choice to take a stand against the wokery engulfing the capital. He couldn't specify _what_ the wokery was, or why and how Saddiq Khan was pushing such insidiously invisible plots, and genuinely didn't believe me when I said Fox was a hate-spewing gak-fuelled anti-vaccine paranoid lunatic (something the paper apparently forgot to mention, and I'd obviously been reading too much Graun who were obviously mischaracterising this plucky british hero). Growing up in a household with the torygraph as the main paper and once home to some half-decent if centre-right-slanted journalism, its tone these days is fucking batshit hatstand hysterical. I guess its pan was boiled slow enough that regular readers didn't notice...?

Making up tales of PCGM/wokery out of whole cloth certainly isn't anything new either. There was a certain hack years ago, who I think wrote for either the torygraph or the smectator, who used to continually invent such tales as a pleonastic form of pearl-clutching. I seem to remember him complaining he wasn't paid enough but he was eventually fired for his congenital lying IIRC and was going to branch in to politics. Can't quite recall where he ended up but as a reprehensible cunt he's sure to have gone far in the tory party.


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## SpineyNorman (Aug 14, 2022)

The fairytale of New York drama was a mad example too, all they did was bleep out the word faggot. Because nothing has ever been bleeped out of a song before to make it friendly to BBC audiences. 

And the pogues (who know all too well what real censorship is - streets of sorrow) judging by their statements were as bemused by it all as I am. 

It did lead to one glorious moment when the pogues, via their Twitter feed, told Laurence fox to 'fuck off you little herrenvolk shite' though


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## LeytonCatLady (Aug 14, 2022)

SpineyNorman said:


> The fairytale of New York drama was a mad example too, all they did was bleep out the word faggot. Because nothing has ever been bleeped out of a song before to make it friendly to BBC audiences.


That's what's hypocritical about the pearl clutchers. They don't object to, say, swearing or sexual references being bleeped out -  because think of the children! - but they're fine with harmful slurs. I used to have a boss like that who'd think nothing of using racist words despite repeated requests from all of us not to, but apparently it was sooo much more offensive to use the word fuck.

Also David Cameron - before he was PM - opined that rudeness was worse than racism. I shouted at the telly "Oh no it's fucking not, you fucking cunt!"


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## tim (Aug 14, 2022)

8ball said:


> Richard Turpin.


And their Polka Dot Lancashire Hotpots


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## Cloo (Aug 14, 2022)

Sadly my dad's going in the 'muttering about wokeness' direction, which is a shame as though he is right wing I'd generally thought of him as smarter than that, but maybe it's a getting older thing. For all this, he's at least been fine with our oldest identifying as non-binary and nephew being trans. He's always been someone who i think feels deeply that prejudice against race, gender, sexuality etc is  beneath contempt but at the same time I don't think gets contemporary understanding in terms of privilege and structual racism/misogyny etc, or how much of it is 'invisible' to him.


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## 8ball (Aug 14, 2022)

chilango said:


> I think we're at the point where neutralising the term would be pretty easy.
> 
> Like ETH's woke tactics cost United yesterday.
> 
> ...



I very much doubt you’ll find woke jeans in TK.  

V. expensive.


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## DotCommunist (Aug 14, 2022)

SpineyNorman said:


> The fairytale of New York drama was a mad example too, all they did was bleep out the word faggot. Because nothing has ever been bleeped out of a song before to make it friendly to BBC audiences.
> 
> And the pogues (who know all too well what real censorship is - streets of sorrow) judging by their statements were as bemused by it all as I am.
> 
> It did lead to one glorious moment when the pogues, via their Twitter feed, told Laurence fox to 'fuck off you little herrenvolk shite' though


now we all have to sing 'you scumbag, you maggot, you've taped over Taggart' because of the PC brigade


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## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Aug 14, 2022)

DotCommunist said:


> now we all have to sing 'you scumbag, you maggot, you've taped over Taggart' because of the PC brigade



Think you'll find the woke brigade have cancelled video taping.


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## tim (Aug 14, 2022)

Insufferable wokery down at Shakespeare's Globe, apparently.





Playwrights abusing free speech to manipulate pronouns. I'm off to see the Tempest tonight, so shall boo Laurence Fox should be turn up with a Swastika collage flag. 

Actually, I was there last night too, and Brutus and Cassius were both women as was Brutus's wife. Somebody should alert GBNews


----------



## stdP (Aug 14, 2022)

SpineyNorman said:


> The fairytale of New York drama was a mad example too, all they did was bleep out the word faggot. Because nothing has ever been bleeped out of a song before to make it friendly to BBC audiences.



As ever it's impossible to "win" this sort of argument since you can slice it any facile way you want it.

Bleep out the word "faggot" from _Fairytale of New York_?


> Woke Liberal Snowflakes Censor Beloved Songs - Will Christmas Be Banned Next?



_Don't_ bleep out the word "faggot" from _Fairytale of New York_?


> Out-of-Touch Media Elite Show Their True Colours Promoting Homophobia and Drunken Violence as "Christmas Values"





Cloo said:


> Sadly my dad's going in the 'muttering about wokeness' direction, which is a shame as though he is right wing I'd generally thought of him as smarter than that, but maybe it's a getting older thing. For all this, he's at least been fine with our oldest identifying as non-binary and nephew being trans. He's always been someone who i think feels deeply that prejudice against race, gender, sexuality etc is  beneath contempt but at the same time I don't think gets contemporary understanding in terms of privilege and structual racism/misogyny etc, or how much of it is 'invisible' to him.



Most Aunt Sally's happily accept exception clauses to cater to this sort of eventuality though, that's the beauty of keeping things deliberately vague. Having your own gay/black/jewish/womble relation/friend is fine because "they're one of the good ones" and "it's only _these_ forms of $other that are the bad ones". The distinction between one and t'other is wholly down to the preconceptions of the person involved and openly invites hypocrisy - some of my best friends are wombles, etc, so any bad things being done to wombles aren't being done by me personally, but by No True Scotsmen.



DotCommunist said:


> now we all have to sing 'you scumbag, you maggot, you've taped over Taggart' because of the PC brigade



Taggart was a DCI.


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## 8ball (Aug 14, 2022)

stdP said:


> Taggart was a DCI.



Hence the ire of the PC brigade.


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## bemused (Aug 14, 2022)

I'm enjoying watching the permanently angry pretending they read the Sandman book.


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## Raheem (Aug 14, 2022)

8ball said:


> Hence the ire of the PC brigade.


Can't even call her WPC Brigade nowadays.


----------



## Dystopiary (Aug 14, 2022)

tim said:


> Insufferable wokery down at Shakespeare's Globe, apparently.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



They'll be saying her name was Jeanne next.


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## 8ball (Aug 14, 2022)

Dystopiary said:


> They'll be saying her name was Jeanne next.



Their name was Jean.


----------



## NoXion (Aug 14, 2022)

Jean-Claude


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## isvicthere? (Aug 14, 2022)

Another thing many people say, who dislike "wokeness" without really being able to give an example of it or even define what it is, is "they shove it down your
 throat." Now this used to be a staple of older male members of my family when talking about "the gays", but now the phrase has taken on a "woke" life all its own.


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## Cid (Aug 14, 2022)

Dystopiary said:


> They'll be saying her name was Jeanne next.



Or that they're not even from Arc.


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## ddraig (Aug 14, 2022)

isvicthere? said:


> Another thing many people say, who dislike "wokeness" without really being able to give an example of it or even define what it is, is "they shove it down you throat." Now this used to ber a staple of older male members of my family when talking about "the gays", but now the phrase has taken on a "woke" life all its own.


exactly this, someone I was talking to on Friday said they agreed with BLM but it had "gone too far" and that "they" were getting the jobs first because of wokeness, they still couldn't explain what wokeness was and instead tried to imply I was a race traitor for saying we had privilege and the playing field was nowhere near "level" let alone gone the other way, then then cunt wanted to shake my hand! And when I refused asked if it was because I was scared of covid


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## Cloo (Aug 14, 2022)

Saw some woman had tweeted that she just _couldn't _watch Strictly Come Dancing anymore because of all the 'token diversity'.

Now, come on Linda, it's not because you are appalled by the 'tokenism' is it? It's because there's too many brown people, so what you're saying is that you preferred it when there _was _only one person who wasn't white aren't you, Linda? What you're objecting to is called 'representation'.

And I think this is a thing a lot of 'anti woke' fall into, they act as though 'Well, it's just virtue-signalling tokenism isn't it?' - uhm, so please tell me what the correct amount of diversity isn't tokenism, but isn't 'going too far'?


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## Karl Masks (Aug 14, 2022)

The war on women is woke?

We have gone inside out


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## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Aug 14, 2022)

Cloo said:


> Saw some woman had tweeted that she just _couldn't _watch Strictly Come Dancing anymore because of all the 'token diversity'.
> 
> Now, come on Linda, it's not because you are appalled by the 'tokenism' is it? It's because there's too many brown people, so what you're saying is that you preferred it when there _was _only one person who wasn't white aren't you, Linda? What you're objecting to is called 'representation'.



I expect it's more the same sex partners tbh


----------



## Cloo (Aug 14, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> The war on women is woke?
> 
> We have gone inside out


'The war on women' = 'not being massive bastards to trans women'


----------



## LeytonCatLady (Aug 14, 2022)

Cloo said:


> Saw some woman had tweeted that she just _couldn't _watch Strictly Come Dancing anymore because of all the 'token diversity'.
> 
> Now, come on Linda, it's not because you are appalled by the 'tokenism' is it? It's because there's too many brown people, so what you're saying is that you preferred it when there _was _only one person who wasn't white aren't you, Linda? What you're objecting to is called 'representation'.
> 
> And I think this is a thing a lot of 'anti woke' fall into, they act as though 'Well, it's just virtue-signalling tokenism isn't it?' - uhm, so please tell me what the correct amount of diversity isn't tokenism, but isn't 'going too far'?


Remember Laurence Fox's objections a couple of years ago to the black family in the Sainsbury's ad? That set one of my relatives off on a rant about how the BBC are London based so therefore they should have all UK people presenting their programmes and not "token" Welsh people like Alex Jones or Scottish or Irish, and speaking of tokenism, why do programmes set in England forget we're a "white country".

Me: First of all, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are part of the UK too.
Secondly, London is an international city, so not all stars will necessarily be from the capital, let alone Britain. Thirdly, it's no longer realistic to only have white people in a TV show because that doesn't represent Britain of today. And why would you automatically assume tokenism when you see a non- English or non-white person on telly anyway? Why can't it just be that the producers thought they were right for the job?


----------



## Cloo (Aug 14, 2022)

Also, some people try to be all 'just being rational about it' by going 'But black people are only X% of the propulation  so anything else is unrealistic and alienates white people'   

When the fact is that people of colour are probably still not altogether overrepresented on telly/in advertising and, even if they are - good. That tends to be what it takes to actually get people to recognise diversity.


----------



## LeytonCatLady (Aug 14, 2022)

Cloo said:


> Also, some people try to be all 'just being rational about it' by going 'But black people are only X% of the propulation  so anything else is unrealistic and alienates white people'
> 
> When the fact is that people of colour are probably still not altogether overrepresented on telly/in advertising and, even if they are - good. That tends to be what it takes to actually get people to recognise diversity.


"When a person is accustomed to privilege, equality can seem like oppression." I'm not sure who said that but yeah, some people seem to see rights and opportunities as some kind of zero sum game or slices of pie that run out at some point. But one group having rights doesn't take away the rights of another group. And I think the ones who assume that assume it because they would take away everyone's rights but their own if they could.


----------



## 8ball (Aug 14, 2022)

Cloo said:


> 'The war on women' = 'not being massive bastards to trans women'



Wasn’t sure whether KM was talking about the Jean of Arc thing.


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## Cloo (Aug 14, 2022)

8ball said:


> Wasn’t sure whether KM was talking about the Jean of Arc thing.


I think she was but it's all part of the same thing really.  FWIW, I'm generally chary of labeling historical figures, especially female ones,  as trans unless they said anything to suggest they identified as such,  though if I understand correctly  in the case of this Joan of Arc thing,  the Globe theatre have said this is just one interpretation of Joan - they're not campaigning to have Joan's pronouns changed globally.


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 14, 2022)

tim said:


> Insufferable wokery down at Shakespeare's Globe, apparently.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



What a fucking idiot. Clearly knows nothing of Joan Of Arc as she was known for cross dressing and indeed persecuted for it and has often been portrayed and claimed as non-binary, intersex or even beyond gender as a symbol of national resistance and religious martyrdom.
And it’s at The Globe ffs, where they put on modern productions of Shakespeare. They’re supposed to be looking back through the lens of the present day and no one can deny that gender issues are in the public eye right now


----------



## smokedout (Aug 14, 2022)

Cloo said:


> Oh, it's definitely gone 'loony left'  > 'political correctness' > 'woke'.
> 
> But yes,  lots of random shit seems to have been wrapped up in 'wokeness' by people who haven't got a clue what they're talking about.



I think the more strategically minded people on the right specifically encourage this because a lot of what is called wokeness is actually regulation of capital, such as health and safety or Covid regulations, equality laws, environmental protections etc.  I think it's very likely we'll see an attack on the Equality Act undercover of anti-wokeness in the next Parliament which has been a long standing ambition of the Tory right and was first proposed in 2011.  

In addition wokeness is a useful scapegoat for unpopular aspects of capitalism amongst their own supporters.  When the long standing pub at the end of my UKIP uncle's road shut down and re-opened as an Indian restaurant (excellent trolling Goddess) his chat was all about how a never quite defined 'they' had done this for some malign woke reason and not the fact that no-one, including him, ever drank in there and so it went out of business.  It was the same capitalism that he so fervently supports that shut down his local but he wasn't having any of that.  Capitalism needs scapegoats whether immigrants, lone parents or unemployed people and wokeness has rolled them all up into some sinister nebulous blob that is particularly useful for soothing the cognitive dissonance that comes from being a working class Tory.


----------



## 8ball (Aug 14, 2022)




----------



## Cloo (Aug 14, 2022)

Oh yeah, human rights being 'woke' - I always think it worth pointing out again and again that it is never in _your_ interest for people to have fewer rights and/or less access to justice. This ultimately only ever serves those in power, but it comes cloaked in 'We're just doing this to stop cases like [something that is a total outlier or has been completely misrepresented in the media]' and that's all fine until you or someone you know needs those rights.


----------



## isvicthere? (Aug 15, 2022)

stdP said:


> It's fair to say that if the term woke appears in a headline or the first paragraph, then the paper's not one I'd be happy to have my chips wrapped up in.


 Except you can´t! Because "the woke élite" have banned eating chips from newspaper. You couldn´t make it up! 

Seriously, though, excellent post.


----------



## isvicthere? (Aug 15, 2022)

Dystopiary said:


> They'll be saying her name was Jeanne next.



It´s Wooton´s own "war against women" by getting their name wrong! Is even he going a bit "woke"?


----------



## isvicthere? (Aug 15, 2022)

Cloo said:


> Also, some people try to be all 'just being rational about it' by going 'But black people are only X% of the propulation  so anything else is unrealistic and alienates white people'
> 
> When the fact is that people of colour are probably still not altogether overrepresented on telly/in advertising and, even if they are - good. That tends to be what it takes to actually get people to recognise diversity.



The best example of nailing this was Idris Elba. When he played Thor, a lot of white supremacist scumbags in the USA got angry that Thor, a character from Norse mythology, was being represented by a black actor.

Elba said, "When I click my fingers, a magic hammer flies towards me, but me having black skin is the ridiculous bit?"


----------



## 8ball (Aug 15, 2022)

There were a few black Vikings tbf.
And in the MCU, Asgard is in space, not Scandinavia.

Was a weird thing to get wound up about.


----------



## LeytonCatLady (Aug 15, 2022)

isvicthere? said:


> The best example of nailing this was Idris Elba. When he played Thor, a lot of white supremacist scumbags in the USA got angry that Thor, a character from Norse mythology, was being represented by a black actor.
> 
> Elba said, "When I click my fingers, a magic hammer flies towards me, but me having black skin is the ridiculous bit?"


Somebody on Twitter was bitching about Disney doing a remake of " The Little Mermaid" with a black Ariel on the grounds that the story was originally written by a Danish person and so it wasn't realistic. Me: "And a singing mermaid who grows legs is? It's a fairytale for kids and you complain about realism!"


----------



## tim (Aug 31, 2022)

It appears that National Trust  scones are woke.


----------



## isvicthere? (Aug 31, 2022)

tim said:


> It appears that National Trust  scones are woke.




Of all the types of "wokeness" I would say "scone wokeness" is probably the worst.


----------



## Serge Forward (Aug 31, 2022)

All depends on whether they say scone or scone.


----------



## existentialist (Aug 31, 2022)

Serge Forward said:


> All depends on whether they say scone or scone.


"scone" is proper woke


----------



## Nine Bob Note (Aug 31, 2022)

Serge Forward said:


> All depends on whether they say scone or scone.



That was the holy boulder than Longshanks knicked, wasn't it?


----------



## 8ball (Aug 31, 2022)

existentialist said:


> "scone" is proper woke



Depends on whether there is a shade of irony to it.  Otherwise, “scone” is def more woke, especially in London.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 31, 2022)

Nine Bob Note said:


> That was the holy boulder than Longshanks knicked, wasn't it?


Yes he was a knicker


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 31, 2022)

Serge Forward said:


> All depends on whether they say scone or scone.


Even if they say it right you cam always tell a wrong un by their putting on clotted cream before jam


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Sep 1, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> Even if they say it right you cam always tell a wrong un by their putting on clotted cream before jam


You have to be careful round our way when you come out with stuff like that.


----------



## mojo pixy (Sep 1, 2022)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> You have to be careful round our way when you come out with stuff like that.



I have to admit, I feel like a proper weirdo when the scones come out and I get sussed for my jam-first blasphemy. At least it doesn't show up on my DBS .. I hope


----------



## ouirdeaux (Sep 1, 2022)

I don't really like scones. Or jam. Or clotted cream. Is it OK to say that?


----------



## mojo pixy (Sep 1, 2022)

ouirdeaux said:


> I don't really like scones. Or jam. Or clotted cream. Is it OK to say that?


Political correctness gone mad


----------



## Artaxerxes (Sep 1, 2022)

ouirdeaux said:


> I don't really like scones. Or jam. Or clotted cream. Is it OK to say that?



Banned.


----------



## ska invita (Sep 1, 2022)

Too much sugar and dairy. High time they were banned and a sugar free lactose free gluten free alternative version enforced by law. Scones are destroying the planet and putting a strain on the NHS. I might send a letter to the Mail


----------



## 8ball (Sep 1, 2022)

ska invita said:


> Too much sugar and dairy. High time they were banned and a sugar free lactose free gluten free alternative version enforced by law. Scones are destroying the planet and putting a strain on the NHS. I might send a letter to the Mail



Doesn’t that make them an ideal snack for the anti-woke?


----------



## Karl Masks (Sep 1, 2022)

ouirdeaux said:


> I don't really like scones. Or jam. Or clotted cream. Is it OK to say that?


To your marxist friends, when disscussing intersectionality and eating vegan food while reading the collected poems of Engels in a building made from sustainable materials nowhere near Mike Graham.

See you Cameron. He makes things out of trees. Brilliant. I don't ever want to speak to any of these people again


----------



## LeytonCatLady (Sep 1, 2022)

ouirdeaux said:


> I don't really like scones. Or jam. Or clotted cream. Is it OK to say that?


Ooh, you anti-British traitor, you!


----------



## mojo pixy (Sep 1, 2022)

ska invita said:


> Too much sugar and dairy. High time they were banned and a sugar free lactose free gluten free alternative version enforced by law. *Scones* are destroying the planet and putting a strain on the NHS. I might send a letter to the Mail


_Scones_ on the other hand, are a bastion of what is right and proper, in the face of those who would destroy afternoon snacking and replace it with some kind of woke "street-food" to be consumed in a car park, without regard to the vicious politeness that once made teatime great.


----------



## bemused (Sep 1, 2022)

Enjoy watching Tory half-wits moaning about police dancing at festivals they are policing.


----------



## two sheds (Sep 1, 2022)

when they should clearly instead be beating seven kinds out of the festival goers.


----------



## bemused (Sep 1, 2022)

two sheds said:


> when they should clearly instead be beating seven kinds out of the festival goers.


I watched some dude from the policing association moan about the Notting Hill festival to be moved/banned because two female officers had been sexually assaulted ( no mention of the poor chap stabbed to death) whilst I have sympathy and empathy for the officers, my initial thoughts were 'aren't the police meant to arrest these sorts of people?'


----------



## 8ball (Sep 1, 2022)

bemused said:


> I watched some dude from the policing association moan about the Notting Hill festival to be moved/banned because two female officers had been sexually assaulted ( no mention of the poor chap stabbed to death) whilst I have sympathy and empathy for the officers, my initial thoughts were 'aren't the police meant to arrest these sorts of people?'



They would need to decide exactly what they’re doing there first.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Sep 1, 2022)

Government appoints anti-‘woke’ activist as V&A trustee
					

Rightwing commentator Zewditu Gebreyohanes is director of a group waging ‘politicised’ campaign against the National Trust




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Artaxerxes (Sep 1, 2022)

Apparently deeply embedded in Policy Exchange and like a daughter to Scruton.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Sep 1, 2022)

ouirdeaux said:


> I don't really like scones. Or jam. Or clotted cream. Is it OK to say that?



No.

It's scone, then clotted cream, then jam.


----------



## tim (Sep 1, 2022)

ouirdeaux said:


> I don't really like scones. Or jam. Or clotted cream. Is it OK to say that?




It is if you want to restore the Trust and wage war on Wokery.


----------



## tim (Sep 1, 2022)

At the Globe to see "I Joan" the non-binary take on Joan of Arc which was upsetting volk in the Mail and in GBNEWTS a week or so ago.
There were no TERFs, or French fascists picketing, and no scent of an outraged Laurence Fox.

Two hours and fifty minutes, so let's hope it is engrossing.


----------



## ska invita (Sep 3, 2022)

Interesting thread that suggests that at a time when racism is less acceptable the war on woke transfers similar hateful attitudes in a way that can't be dismissed as racism. Makes sense as to why something so ludicrous has quite so much steam. It's bigotry gone PC mad.
Perhaps so



More to the thread than that but this aspect was new to me


----------



## two sheds (Sep 3, 2022)

From that: 

13. MOST IMPORTANTLY! Our research found there is another way! We tested the right's message against progressive messages calling for unity across race and class and organising around material interests. Our messages outperformed the anti-woke story.


----------



## Cloo (Sep 5, 2022)

Salient points from both these reactions to this headline


----------



## 8ball (Sep 5, 2022)

ska invita said:


> Interesting thread that suggests that at a time when racism is less acceptable the war on woke transfers similar hateful attitudes in a way that can't be dismissed as racism. Makes sense as to why something so ludicrous has quite so much steam. It's bigotry gone PC mad.
> Perhaps so
> 
> 
> More to the thread than that but this aspect was new to me




That’s so Guardian I was expecting a sourdough recipe at some point.


----------



## Cloo (Sep 5, 2022)

two sheds said:


> From that:
> 
> 13. MOST IMPORTANTLY! Our research found there is another way! We tested the right's message against progressive messages calling for unity across race and class and organising around material interests. Our messages outperformed the anti-woke story.


I think this is important - more important than 'bashing' those who pursue the 'anti-woke' message is putting out why it's important. The Tories and the Far Right are relying on splitting people up and blaming problems on 'wokeness' so people won't notice what they're up to. We need the message that these people Do Not Care About You. They are not improving your quality of life, 'wokeness' is not damaging your quality of life - we need a politics that actually understands how people live in this country and that is a politics that is intersectional.


----------



## LeytonCatLady (Sep 5, 2022)

Cloo said:


> I think this is important - more important than 'bashing' those who pursue the 'anti-woke' message is putting out why it's important. The Tories and the Far Right are relying on splitting people up and blaming problems on 'wokeness' so people won't notice what they're up to. We need the message that these people Do Not Care About You. They are not improving your quality of life, 'wokeness' is not damaging your quality of life - we need a politics that actually understands how people live in this country and that is a politics that is intersectional.


Cloo for prime minister!


----------



## isvicthere? (Sep 5, 2022)

Cloo said:


> I think this is important - more important than 'bashing' those who pursue the 'anti-woke' message is putting out why it's important. The Tories and the Far Right are relying on splitting people up and blaming problems on 'wokeness' so people won't notice what they're up to. We need the message that these people Do Not Care About You. They are not improving your quality of life, 'wokeness' is not damaging your quality of life - we need a politics that actually understands how people live in this country and that is a politics that is intersectional.


 There´s many a true word spoken in jest, and I repost this story from the Daily Mash which illustrates your point.....









						Revealed: How a once-thriving Northern town was ruined by wokeness
					

ONCE, the South Yorkshire town of Cleckburton was a thriving industrial hub. Today its shops are boarded up and there are no job, hopes or prospects for its inhabitants.




					www.thedailymash.co.uk


----------



## 8ball (Sep 5, 2022)

Have I missed the bit where the Tories said wokeness was responsible for deindustrialisation?


----------



## two sheds (Sep 5, 2022)

No that'll be the lazy British workers who did that.


----------



## 8ball (Sep 5, 2022)

two sheds said:


> No that'll be the lazy British workers who did that.


(((daily mash)))


----------



## mojo pixy (Sep 7, 2022)

So wtf is going on ... these fuckers are all 'anti-woke' and what not, ok, but we now have a government where (to quote the rolling news) 'none of the great offices of state are held by white men'

Are they trying to alienate their fan base? Or just a bunch of massive hypocrites?

How are they (tories) managing to tout this as a victory for diversity when they have literally been campaigning against wokeness for years now? How the fuck does this even work?

I think I'm used to politicians being hypocrites, and I'm also used to them being stupid. It's this current combination of the two, it's honestly just .. overwhelming.


----------



## LDC (Sep 7, 2022)

Totally fits with their position, not a contradiction at all. Smokeandsteam and others explained it when Sunak was being talked about as potential PM.

Also think a mistake to think of them as stupid. I mean Truss not the sharpest knife in the draw but collectively they are very good at what they're doing. That's what makes them dangerous, to portray them as stupid does us no good at all.


----------



## mojo pixy (Sep 7, 2022)

LDC said:


> Totally fits with their position, not a contradiction at all. Smokeandsteam and others explained it when Sunak was being talked about as potential PM.


I still don't get it I'm afraid. I think its just another example of the entitled tory attitude of 'I do what I want, you do what I say'


LDC said:


> Also think a mistake to think of them as stupid. I mean Truss not the sharpest knife in the draw but collectively they are very good at what they're doing. That's what makes them dangerous, to portray them as stupid does us no good at all.


I disagree. Thinking of them as in any way competent is the mistake. They aren't playing 4D chess, they're just selfish, mean-spirited and hypocritical. They represent a particular kind of stupid, entitled, parochial Britishness we all recognise and live among. it's not clever, it's just popular, and it may become less popular over the next couple of years (but I don't expect it to) .. not because they're clever, but because we as a nation have very low expectations so it's not hard for our politicianscand pundits to appear impressive (especially with a client media consumed by 3/4 of the adult population or whatever).

They lie, double down on lies, muddy the waters, stoke division. Nothing about it is clever, we just cant seem to stop them, maybe collectively we just don't care enough any more idk.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Sep 7, 2022)

mojo pixy said:


> So wtf is going on ... these fuckers are all 'anti-woke' and what not, ok, but we now have a government where (to quote the rolling news) 'none of the great offices of state are held by white men'
> 
> Are they trying to alienate their fan base? Or just a bunch of massive hypocrites?
> 
> ...




Smokescreen, any criticism of the Conservatives can be deflected with “but we’re so diverse” which on the face of it sure, but all of them are operating from a perspective of frothing right wing lunacy so the diversity is in reality minimal. 

Still same perspectives and beliefs deep within cabinet and experiences that do not necessarily reflect a wide range of life paths.


----------



## mojo pixy (Sep 7, 2022)

Artaxerxes said:


> Smokescreen, any criticism of the Conservatives can be deflected with “but we’re so diverse” which on the face of it sure, but all of them are operating from a perspective of frothing right wing lunacy so the diversity is in reality minimal.
> 
> Still same perspectives and beliefs deep within cabinet and experiences that do not necessarily reflect a wide range of life paths.


Yes, it's just lies and manipulation. I see no cleverness, just that. Dishonesty and the usual brass neck of the ruling class.

What I don't get is how 'anti-woke' fits with  'none of the great offices of state are held by white men' .. how are they getting away with it among their own base, is what I can't get my head around.


----------



## killer b (Sep 7, 2022)

mojo pixy said:


> What I don't get is how 'anti-woke' fits with 'none of the great offices of state are held by white men'


It demonstrates that wokeness isn't necessary for minorities and women to succeed in a true meritocratic society. Or something like that.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Sep 7, 2022)

mojo pixy said:


> What I don't get is how 'anti-woke' fits with  'none of the great offices of state are held by white men' .. how are they getting away with it among their own base, is what I can't get my head around.



Well the same way that 'wokeness' is flexible to cover more or less anything someone they don't like is doing, except in reverse.


----------



## LDC (Sep 7, 2022)

mojo pixy said:


> What I don't get is how 'anti-woke' fits with  'none of the great offices of state are held by white men' .. how are they getting away with it among their own base, is what I can't get my head around.



Because being 'anti-woke' is not the same as being racist. Among other things it's a denial of structural issues, so having POC in positions like this strengthens an 'anti-woke' position, it doesn't contradict it.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Sep 7, 2022)

mojo pixy said:


> Yes, it's just lies and manipulation. I see no cleverness, just that. Dishonesty and the usual brass neck of the ruling class.
> 
> What I don't get is how 'anti-woke' fits with  'none of the great offices of state are held by white men' .. how are they getting away with it among their own base, is what I can't get my head around.




They might not.


----------



## Spandex (Sep 7, 2022)

mojo pixy said:


> So wtf is going on ... these fuckers are all 'anti-woke' and what not, ok, but we now have a government where (to quote the rolling news) 'none of the great offices of state are held by white men'
> 
> Are they trying to alienate their fan base? Or just a bunch of massive hypocrites?
> 
> ...


This goes back to a Cameron era initiative to get more people of colour into the Conservative party. Cameron was socially liberal for a Conservative - see gay marriage for example - and noticed that there are a lot of people in minority groups who are conservative in attitude, but wouldn't touch the party with a bargepole due to years of explicit bigotry. The party was losing out on natural voters because of their racism. A lot of work went into promoting the party to conservatives in minority groups and those people within the party. Patel and Braverman and the rest are the result. It doesn't mean the racism in the membership has gone away, but they can point to the lack of diversity in the other parties to score political points, plus the visible minority faces serves to show that the Conservative party can be for minority groups, expanding their voter base.


----------



## Cloo (Sep 7, 2022)

Ironic that if a Labour cabinet had the same gender/race make up as Truss' , the Tories would be decrying it for being 'woke'


----------



## 8ball (Sep 7, 2022)

mojo pixy said:


> What I don't get is how 'anti-woke' fits with  'none of the great offices of state are held by white men' .. how are they getting away with it among their own base, is what I can't get my head around.



Because the plan, as well as what Spandex and Artazerxes said, is to combat their idea of wokeness by putting in anti-woke non-white people to give the right-wing press lots of options to ridicule any criticism of "anti-woke" policies.


----------



## 8ball (Sep 7, 2022)

Cloo said:


> Ironic that if a Labour cabinet had the same gender/race make up as Truss' , the Tories would be decrying it for being 'woke'



I think they might avoid that, since they've been crowing about being first to have a woman PM for decades.
They'd let the press do it for them.


----------



## killer b (Sep 7, 2022)

Cloo said:


> Ironic that if a Labour cabinet had the same gender/race make up as Truss' , the Tories would be decrying it for being 'woke'


not really - it demonstrates very neatly how flexible this stuff is though: _We_ have a cabinet full of minorities and women because with hard work, sacrifice and a can do attitude, anyone can succeed in the modern Conservative Party! _You_ have a shadow cabinet full of MPs who've been promoted beyond their abilities because of woke affirmative action policies, etc  etc.


----------



## killer b (Sep 7, 2022)

Except of course Labour doesn't have a shadow cabinet full of minorities, so they don't have to even bother with that bit


----------



## Cloo (Sep 7, 2022)

killer b said:


> not really - it demonstrates very neatly how flexible this stuff is though: _We_ have a cabinet full of minorities and women because with hard work, sacrifice and a can do attitude, anyone can succeed in the modern Conservative Party! _You_ have a shadow cabinet full of MPs who've been promoted beyond their abilities because of woke affirmative action policies, etc  etc.


Exactly. PoC and women succeed in conservatism yes, by their hard work, but also by keeping schtum about any racism or sexism they experience,  because they don't want to be one of those whingey victims and anyway you've got to take a joke and have a thick skin in this world. And they know they'd be out on their arse if they acknowledged any prejudice towards them.


----------



## mojo pixy (Sep 7, 2022)

Nope, still not getting it. I mean no, I understand the _theory_ but in order for it to actually work, millions of us have to just go with it, the total lack of self awareness and blatant dishonesty and gaslighting. The next general election ought to be a doozy.


----------



## ouirdeaux (Sep 7, 2022)

mojo pixy said:


> I understand the _theory_ but in order for it to actually work, millions of us have to just go with it, the total lack of self awareness and blatant dishonesty and gaslighting.



Millions do, so it does.


----------



## Cloo (Sep 7, 2022)

I also wonder whether in part we’ve ended up with a diverse cabinet is because the government has now cycled through so many old white men who’d normally get priority for positions


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Sep 7, 2022)

We need to stop snowflakes like the Mail from trying to cancel free speech...


----------



## mojo pixy (Sep 7, 2022)

ouirdeaux said:


> Millions do, so it does.


But _that_'s the issue: it works. We take it. We (as a population, a minority true but enough given our stupid electoral system) still vote for them. That's the bit I don't get, not without incorporating some really shitty ideas about my fellow Britons, which I really dislike doing. In short, none of this would be happening if a) We didn't vote for it and b) if there were any alternative to it.


Cloo said:


> I also wonder whether in part we’ve ended up with a diverse cabinet is because the government has now cycled through so many old white men who’d normally get priority for positions


Nah, it's been done on purpose. It's their fig leaf, i know that, we all do. I'm just stunned that the fact it's just a fig leaf, is not being pointed out constantly outside of our little echo chamber. By, I don't know, Labour maybe? The whole argument around 'wokeness' seems so toxic, there's no real discussion to be had, we do just have to go with it. I think 'tokenism' is an unword nowadays, but I'm afraid I can't see this cabinet (or the last one tbh) as anything else.


----------



## ouirdeaux (Sep 7, 2022)

mojo pixy said:


> That's the bit I don't get, not without incorporating some really shitty ideas about my fellow Britons, which I really dislike doing.



Um.


----------



## mojo pixy (Sep 7, 2022)

ouirdeaux said:


> Um.


Yeah well, that way lies fascism and conspiranoid mutterings about 'sheeple', I'm reluctant to go there.


----------



## Cloo (Sep 7, 2022)

mojo pixy  - and as has been said, so they can ' 'debunk' white patriarchy by saying 'Look at all these high achieving women and black/Asian people who say racism/sexism is not a problem in the country any more, no need to do anything about it'.


----------



## two sheds (Sep 7, 2022)

Yes they've reached the top, you lot just need to work harder and you'll get there too.


----------



## mojo pixy (Sep 7, 2022)

Cloo said:


> mojo pixy  - and as has been said, so they can ' 'debunk' white patriarchy by saying 'Look at all these high achieving women and black/Asian people who say racism/sexism is not a problem in the country any more, no need to do anything about it'.


Yes, that's pretty much what tokenism is, isn't it?


----------



## mojo pixy (Sep 7, 2022)

And apparently, it doesn't get questioned, it gets lauded lol. No white dudes in top jobs, how cool is that? Just a bunch of diverse sociopaths, nothing to see here  

(edit)
That's it isn't it, they think they can get away with anything by just having diversity in the cabinet. And, they actually can, will, have been. We let them, the media let them, the electorate .. Well, we'll see in a year or so.

Fuck it's depressing.

And no class diversity either, now there's an elephant in a room.


----------



## Cloo (Sep 7, 2022)

mojo pixy said:


> Yes, that's pretty much what tokenism is, isn't it?


I think it's kind of tokenism+ - not just,  'Look, we have black people so you can shut up  about racism now!' but 'Look, we have black people who will shut _you _up about racism now because they agree with us that it's not really that bad'.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Sep 7, 2022)

mojo pixy said:


> And no class diversity either, now there's an elephant in a room.


Is that the new version of "oh look, there's a squirrel!"?


----------



## mojo pixy (Sep 7, 2022)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> Is that the new version of "oh look, there's a squirrel!"?


No, the squirrel is "look at my diverse cabinet!!11!"


----------



## killer b (Sep 7, 2022)

mojo pixy said:


> And apparently, it doesn't get questioned, it gets lauded lol. No white dudes in top jobs, how cool is that? Just a bunch of diverse sociopaths, nothing to see here
> 
> (edit)
> That's it isn't it, they think they can get away with anything by just having diversity in the cabinet. And, they actually can, will, have been. We let them, the media let them, the electorate .. Well, we'll see in a year or so.
> ...


I dunno if it's an elephant in the room, it's explicitly highlighted in the first article I could find on the guardian on the topic









						How representative is Liz Truss’s cabinet of the UK population?
					

New PM has appointed a team that is historically inclusive in some regards. But how well does it represent the population it will govern?




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## 8ball (Sep 7, 2022)

mojo pixy said:


> And no class diversity either, now there's an elephant in a room.



Really?


----------



## mojo pixy (Sep 7, 2022)

Cloo said:


> I think it's kind of tokenism+ - not just,  'Look, we have black people so you can shut up  about racism now!' but 'Look, we have black people who will shut _you _up about racism now because they agree with us that it's not really that bad'.


Also, "don't criticise our sadistic, ecocidal policies, look at all the diverse faces and women who are making them, and stop being so reactionary" or something similar.



killer b said:


> I dunno if it's an elephant in the room, it's explicitly highlighted in the first article I could find on the guardian on the topic
> 
> 
> 
> ...


One article in the guardian, fair enough.

I mean no it's not a particularly invisible elephant but it's never going to be acknowledged by the people it actually belongs to.


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## killer b (Sep 7, 2022)

mojo pixy said:


> One article in the guardian, fair enough.


I assume there's plenty more people making this point, though perhaps not in The Sun or on the BBC - I went to look and found that in under 30 seconds though


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## pogofish (Sep 7, 2022)

I'm seeing a load of Anti-Woke types gushing over their latest online discovery just now.

Enoch Powell, as filtered for today by some ex-Breitbart cunt.


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## mojo pixy (Sep 7, 2022)

killer b said:


> I assume there's plenty more people making this point, though perhaps not in The Sun or on the BBC - I went to look and found that in under 30 seconds though


The guardian is the place I'd expect to see it.


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## Serge Forward (Sep 7, 2022)

It doesn't include the most important statistic though: 100% of the cabinet members are utter cunts.


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## Orang Utan (Sep 7, 2022)

mojo pixy said:


> Yeah well, that way lies fascism and conspiranoid mutterings about 'sheeple', I'm reluctant to go there.


Well don’t read this then:








						The Kids Aren't Alright: The 4 Factors Driving A Dangerous Detachment From Democracy - Report - Onward
					

Why young people are detaching from democracy and social norms – and what to do about it




					www.ukonward.com
				



it appears to show young people are falling out with democracy


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## 8ball (Sep 7, 2022)

Oh, the young people are in trouble?  It must be Wednesday.

Maybe check tomorrow when they will be back to their usual 'beacon of hope that will bring in a heavenly realm of tolerance and kindness'.


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## mojo pixy (Sep 7, 2022)

Orang Utan said:


> Well don’t read this then:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That article is so sad. Wtf are we doing to the kids?


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## Cloo (Sep 7, 2022)

It is sad, but also unsurprising.

I think there is an undercurrent of political engagement with environmental, equality and LGBTQ+ issues among many kids as well, though.


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## killer b (Sep 7, 2022)

All the kids I know are politically engaged well beyond I was at their age. I guess that's how so many of them can spot democracy is a sham.


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## Artaxerxes (Sep 7, 2022)

mojo pixy said:


> That article is so sad. Wtf are we doing to the kids?



Can't imagine.


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## mojo pixy (Sep 7, 2022)

killer b said:


> All the kids I know are politically engaged well beyond I was at their age. I guess that's how so many of them can spot democracy is a sham.


None of the kids I know are particularly politically engaged, in terms of isms or how the country ought to be, I suspect because they spot that. But my impression (as well as what I've heard expressed out loud) they seem to think big P Politics is boring, or someone else's job. On a personal level they're good at understanding their rights, and I get a pretty constant impression of tolerance and respect for diversity, welcoming it in fact. This is great, and small p political for sure. I actually think politics is just changing and I don't kid myself I really get it yet.


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## Cloo (Sep 7, 2022)

I think you may be right about the 'big P' politics thing. Kids are engaging with Issues but not with political parties, and I don't blame them.

It does seem to me that one issue is the growing power of the Right Wing press - I mean I know there always was one, but it feels like it's become so directive of policy now that no one dares do anything that would displease the Daily Mail, even Labour despite the fact that DM readers will never vote for them anyway. It's like progressive things cannot even be discussed without cries of it being lunacy,  extreme, hard socialism etc. And of course these views are back by people generally older than me, so way away from our kids' generation.


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## Rob Ray (Sep 7, 2022)

Tbh if any survey of how young people have been feeling turned out a result that wasn't "kind of distressed and lonely" in the aftermath of two years of lockdowns and the alienation/lack of future of 2020s capitalism I'd be utterly shocked. Being in favour of a military dicatorship is more concerning, but I think is a separate conversation which would need to focus on the success of the radical right dragging conservative norms into the sewer. Which would also link to why, for example, neither side wants to date the other (or even talk to them, given what people see from the worst of their other side every day on social media).


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## Orang Utan (Sep 7, 2022)

killer b said:


> All the kids I know are politically engaged well beyond I was at their age. I guess that's how so many of them can spot democracy is a sham.


Not sure how that is reassuring. I was way more engaged when I was 18 than I am now.


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## ddraig (Oct 25, 2022)

Good rebuttal to "woke"


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## Cloo (Nov 12, 2022)

Daily Mail complaining that small gesture made to try to understand the needs of older female staff is undermining public confidence in the police. Well  - it might now that you've made it a front page story in the DM, rather than, say, not bothering to mention it at all.


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## two sheds (Nov 12, 2022)

ddraig said:


> Good rebuttal to "woke"



"Absolutely" 

 

I'd have actually liked to hear the presenter's definition.


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## Storm Fox (Nov 12, 2022)

Cloo said:


> Daily Mail complaining that small gesture made to try to understand the needs of older female staff is undermining public confidence in the police. Well  - it might now that you've made it a front page story in the DM, rather than, say, not bothering to mention it at all.


'WOMEN KNOW YOUR PLACE.'
'Get out of here with your woke 'Menopause' and wanting to feel good about yourselves.' 😡 Fuck you Daily Mail.

The Storm Vixen is starting to go through menopause and is trying to do menopause awareness at her work. The lack of knowledge for younger women is surprising, and the men is as expected.

I'll stick to being woke, thank you and try and understand something 50% of the population will go through.


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## Serge Forward (Nov 12, 2022)

Cloo said:


> Daily Mail complaining that small gesture made to try to understand the needs of older female staff is undermining public confidence in the police. Well  - it might now that you've made it a front page story in the DM, rather than, say, not bothering to mention it at all.


Meanwhile the Daily Mail's obsession with parts of Rayner's body (first it was her legs, now her alleged "boob job") continues unabated


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## Cloo (Nov 12, 2022)

Serge Forward said:


> Meanwhile the Daily Mail's obsession with parts of Rayner's body (first it was her legs, now her alleged "boob job") continues unabated


Yes,  I noticed that   

But yes,  the menopause is woke.  Women should just go back to getting on with it when they suffer debilitating menopause symptoms and have the decency not to inflicting awareness of their embarrassing gross woman problems on anyone. And everyone else should go back to ignoring it.


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## alex_ (Nov 12, 2022)

Cloo said:


> Yes,  I noticed that
> 
> But yes,  the menopause is woke.  Women should just go back to getting on with it when they suffer debilitating menopause symptoms and have the decency not to inflicting awareness of their embarrassing gross woman problems on anyone. And everyone else should go back to ignoring it.



Trying to work out the logic of it is going to end in failure, empathy is woke seemingly.


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## two sheds (Nov 12, 2022)

Empathy for anyone except right wingers.


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## alex_ (Nov 12, 2022)

two sheds said:


> Empathy for anyone except right wingers.



Who apparently don’t get the menopause.


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## Elpenor (Nov 12, 2022)

alex_ said:


> Who apparently don’t get the menopause.


When they do they simply have a cup of tea and put it out of their mind?


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## alex_ (Nov 12, 2022)

Elpenor said:


> When they do they simply have a cup of tea and put it out of their mind?



This fucking nonsense is why the state sector is a mess, any form of empathy or modernisation gets shat on by cunts at the daily mail which simultaneously trashes it for being in a state.


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## Elpenor (Nov 12, 2022)

We had a chat about the menopause month at work last week actually, and it did prompt some interesting conversations about it as well as other health conditions we all have, and the main takeaway was it’s about understanding that sometimes for whatever reason we aren’t going to be feeling at our best, and to try and remember that and be considerate, make allowances etc

Basic human behaviour to be kind to each other really - no wonder the Mail hates the idea


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## stavros (Nov 12, 2022)

It was rather "woke" to devote weeks of coverage to the death of one very old woman earlier this year. Do I'm glad the Mail boycotted that...


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## Tanya1982 (Nov 12, 2022)

I must admit, I think it's a bit ridiculous to be donning a 'menopause jacket'. The word of a colleague who says they are unwell or feeling off colour should be enough. There is something horribly self obsessed and indulgent about expecting anyone to wear 'this is what it feels like to be at _my_ body temperature' jackets. We all have our physical challenges, whether it's hot flashes, or chronic pain, or urinary incontinence, or whatever it may be.

It's not required for others to literally feel something personally in order to be decent. I suffer from intermittent neck and back pain. It wouldn't occur to me to insist others should have that induced so that they could think more about me rather than whatever else they had to do that day. I think I might be peri menopausal, due to a sometimes uncomfortably overheating face. I don't need anyone to hold their face against a radiator to understand me.


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## alex_ (Nov 12, 2022)

They aren’t making them wear it !


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## Tanya1982 (Nov 12, 2022)

alex_ said:


> They aren’t making them wear it !


I didn't think 'they' were! I didn't use the word 'make' at all. I described it as an 'expectation' - devices aren't made and hired in the expectation nobody will use them. I completely stand by what I said - it's not necessary for someone to literally know what another persons body temperature is in order for empathy to be forthcoming about that particular sensation.

The idea that people should ideally know from their own physical experience in order to be decent about other people's existence is a bleak one. Of a piece with shooting down points that weren't actually made, perhaps, but not actively helpful in understanding an individual perspective. I have zero affinity with the Daily Mail or their stance on 'woke' matters.

If I was to use a wheelchair for a few hours, it wouldn't help me understand what it feels like to go through life using one. It wouldn't enhance my empathy for people who rely on them - my empathy there is already extensive. It would simply mean that I'd play acted for an afternoon, plastering about in a wheelchair for a while. It's quite a patronizing concept.

If a particular individual wanted to do so, that's their affair. Although if you were a cunt without empathy before the session, you still will be after. I wouldn't join in. I wouldn't feel it necessary, as I politely explained. Just as I wouldn't wear a heat vest, or use earplugs to simulate deafness for a day. I am decent enough to just listen and _accept_ the word of another.


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## Raheem (Nov 12, 2022)

I've no idea or opinion about whether a menopause jacket is a fabulous training aid or a total waste of time. I do know that it's not the most important thing that happened in the world yesterday.


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## Tanya1982 (Nov 12, 2022)

Raheem said:


> I've no idea or opinion about whether a menopause jacket is a fabulous training aid or a total waste of time. I do know that it's not the most important thing that happened in the world yesterday.


Yes, that's a fair observation. The fact that this bullshit would be emblazoned across the front page of any publication is quite something. Had we not all seen from newspaper stands what makes the grade for the Mail/Express/Sun/et al just about every day, it might even be shocking.


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## alex_ (Nov 12, 2022)

Tanya1982 said:


> I didn't think 'they' were! I didn't use the word 'make' at all. I described it as an 'expectation' - devices aren't made and hired in the expectation nobody will use them. I completely stand by what I said - it's not necessary for someone to literally know what another persons body temperature is in order for empathy to be forthcoming about that particular sensation.
> 
> The idea that people should ideally know from their own physical experience in order to be decent about other people's existence is a bleak one. Of a piece with shooting down points that weren't actually made, perhaps, but not actively helpful in understanding an individual perspective. I have zero affinity with the Daily Mail or their stance on 'woke' matters.
> 
> ...



I can’t believe anyone gives a shit either way - if people want to do it who cares ?


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## 8ball (Nov 12, 2022)

stavros said:


> It was rather "woke" to devote weeks of coverage to the death of one very old woman earlier this year.



Was it?


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## GarveyLives (Nov 16, 2022)

Today's hysteria egarding proposals to teach the truth:





Universities are ordered to go woke: Courses from computing to classics are told to 'decolonise' by degrees watchdog and teach about impact of *colonialism* and *'white supremacy'*


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## stavros (Nov 16, 2022)

Ignore, wrong thread.


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## Cloo (Nov 16, 2022)

I saw this as well - like, they literally have no fucking clue what 'decolonise' means, do they? Interesting that the actual story says 'compliance is voluntary' while the online version of the headline says they are 'Ordered' to cover it. It's like they believe this will dominate the whole curriculum rather than either having a few discrete sessions or else mentioning it where relevant and including some more non-white/European commentators/experts in the curriculum.


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## stavros (Nov 16, 2022)

Cloo said:


> I saw this as well - like, they literally have no fucking clue what 'decolonise' means, do they?


I suppose it is reciprocal - I have literally no fucking clue what "woke" means. I think it's simply stuff that the DM hates, but that includes most of the known space-time continuum.


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## 8ball (Nov 16, 2022)

Cloo said:


> I saw this as well - like, they literally have no fucking clue what 'decolonise' means, do they?



The meaning of that word does seem to have been lost in the mists of time.

Something about kicking the Muslims out of maths and getting back to Roman numerals.

What has zero ever done for us?


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## alex_ (Nov 17, 2022)

stavros said:


> I suppose it is reciprocal - I have literally no fucking clue what "woke" means. I think it's simply stuff that the DM hates, but that includes most of the known space-time continuum.



It’s intellectually all a bit odd - the daily mail claims to be is all about proper manners and respect, and as far as I can understand woke is looking at things from other peoples viewpoints ( mr c now wants to be called mrs x, mr t would like you to understand that country house y was build using the blood of his ancestors ).

So from what I can figure out, woke is what you call someone when they try to get you to be nice to everyone - not just hetro white people.


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## Boris Sprinkler (Nov 17, 2022)

they want you arguing about things that are inherent to your ego. To evoke feelings and provoke a reaction. This is still divide and rule.


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## stavros (Nov 17, 2022)

alex_ said:


> the daily mail claims to be is all about proper manners and respect,


In unrelated news, Paul Dacre is the editor-in-chief of the Mail titles.


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## alex_ (Nov 17, 2022)

stavros said:


> In unrelated news, Paul Dacre is the editor-in-chief of the Mail titles.



One of the many reasons the daily mails posture on many things is so laughable.

Eg see vagina monologues


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## NoXion (Nov 17, 2022)

As a white guy, I'm never told " enough is enough". As a blind drunk white guy I can order a steak without some Jobsworth questioning my integrity.


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## Cloo (Nov 23, 2022)

DM headlines we're likely to see in the near future:

'WOKE SNOWFLAKE CLAIMS ITS "WRONG" TO INCINERATE REFUGEES'

'CRYBABY WOKERISTA UPSET THAT SCHOOLKIDS ARE GOING HUNGRY'


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## stavros (Nov 23, 2022)

"WOKE SNOWFLAKES FALL OUT OF SKY, INVADING OUR COUNTRY, AND TRAPPING VETERANS IN HOMES"


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