# Lying To Employers About Family Illnesses Etc



## Yelkcub (Dec 8, 2010)

Just found out that a bloke who works for me was bullshitting about his Dad having a stroke, so while I have been letting him have time off to care for him, he's actually been working elsewhere.

To me that's despicable, and makes me temporarily question my 'never question anything that serious' policy. 

Is there something I'm missing that allows someone to do such a thing without losing sleep?


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## dessiato (Dec 8, 2010)

Gross misconduct, dismiss him.


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## Badgers (Dec 8, 2010)

dessiato said:


> Gross misconduct, dismiss him.


 
Yup, think so.. 
If he had money problems he should have spoke to you.


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## Yelkcub (Dec 8, 2010)

dessiato said:


> Gross misconduct, dismiss him.


 
Yeah, he's gone.

Sickening.


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## Badgers (Dec 8, 2010)

Yelkcub said:


> Sickening.



It is pretty low 

Was he remorseful?


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## Yelkcub (Dec 8, 2010)

Badgers said:


> It is pretty low
> 
> Was he remorseful?


 
Haven't caught up with him yet. 'He's gone' was figuarative


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## Me76 (Dec 13, 2010)

I once lied about going to a granddad's funeral because I had no leave left and wanted a day off.  Both my granddads died before I was born though. 

I would never lie about anything that serious.  What an arse!


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## strung out (Dec 13, 2010)

depends how badly i needed it. i've made up some pretty fucking horrendous stuff to get out of work on occasion


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## porno thieving gypsy (Dec 13, 2010)

My mate said his sister had been in a car crash and was in a coma to avoid a nasty week at work. They wanted to send flowers and he ended up in a massive web of lies.  He also felt really guilty about it all, but never more so than when it actually happened about 6 months later. 

In his defence he was only 19....


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## Badgers (Dec 13, 2010)

porno thieving gypsy said:


> My mate said his sister had been in a car crash and was in a coma to avoid a nasty week at work. They wanted to send flowers and he ended up in a massive web of lies.  He also felt really guilty about it all, but never more so than when it actually happened about 6 months later.
> 
> In his defence he was only 19....


 
A 'nasty wee' at work? 




(good speedy edit)


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## strung out (Dec 13, 2010)

yeah, i told a pretty bad one about my godparents being involved in a car crash and having to go back home to visit them. i got the day off though, and they still paid me


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## ChrisFilter (Dec 13, 2010)

Yes, I too have used the car crash excuse. In a previous role.


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## Oswaldtwistle (Dec 13, 2010)

So, OP, what happened to him?


(I've pulled the odd one day 'sickie', but never to work elsewhere)


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## Yelkcub (Dec 16, 2010)

Oswaldtwistle said:


> So, OP, what happened to him?
> 
> 
> (I've pulled the odd one day 'sickie', but never to work elsewhere)



Sent him a letter giving him seven days to get in touch or we'd assume he'd resigned.

Haven't heard from him.


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## Yelkcub (Dec 16, 2010)

Me76 said:


> I once lied about going to a granddad's funeral because I had no leave left and wanted a day off.  Both my granddads died before I was born though.
> 
> I would never lie about anything that serious.  What an arse!


 
Pretend funerals are pretty bad use of other people's compassion I'd say. 

Presumably if your grandparent had died recently you'd be pretty pissed off if you were asked to prove it was the true?


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## Jon-of-arc (Dec 16, 2010)

I had a two day interview once in a city a hundred miles away.  My mum told me to say my then employer I was going to her sisters funeral (someone I'd never met...).  I asked if she was dead yet, and my mum said that "she will be by the time you have that interview..." - she was in hospital on her last legs with some kind of horrible cancer.  That's pretty funny of my mum, but I would have fully expected a swift and bitter dismissal had I been caught out.


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## Yelkcub (Nov 10, 2011)

Employees should also remember what lies they've told. Bloke who was off sick yesterday, was bright as a button when he bounced into the office today and clearly had no idea why I asked him how he was feeling today


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## quimcunx (Nov 10, 2011)

See if you can spot the moment he realises.


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## stuff_it (Nov 10, 2011)

Me76 said:


> I once lied about going to a granddad's funeral because I had no leave left and wanted a day off. Both my granddads died before I was born though.
> 
> I would never lie about anything that serious. What an arse!


I did that to go do a club night in London, and ended up getting drugged and raped by a group of men...I never did it again.


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## Yelkcub (Nov 10, 2011)

quimcunx said:


> See if you can spot the moment he realises.



He's gone out in his lorry now. I'm going to get his supervisor to ask him if he's feeling better later


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## Yelkcub (Nov 10, 2011)

stuff_it said:


> I did that to go do a club night in London, and ended up getting drugged and raped by a group of men...I never did it again.



Wtf?


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## stuff_it (Nov 10, 2011)

Yelkcub said:


> Wtf?


Seriously.

And I've never lied to get a day off work since, especially about something serious...


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## UnderAnOpenSky (Nov 10, 2011)

Badgers said:


> Yup, think so..
> If he had money problems he should have spoke to you.



Cos that always works.


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## DotCommunist (Nov 10, 2011)

Is yelkclub boasting about being a tyrant again?


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## stuff_it (Nov 10, 2011)

DotCommunist said:


> Is yelkclub boasting about being a tyrant again?


Yes, along with a little aside about having a job at all....

Any work going at your workplace DC? I'm getting fucking desperate.


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## Yelkcub (Nov 10, 2011)

DotCommunist said:


> Is yelkclub boasting about being a tyrant again?



Tyrant? You do make me chuckle Dotster!

I'm such a tyrant, I'm having a laugh about his fake sickness, rather than wreaking a terrible tyrannical punishment upon him!


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## 100% masahiko (Nov 10, 2011)

I've done this twice.

Lied to my manager that my brother died. And he gave me two weeks off (result!!).

And at another company, I told them my sister died of terminal illness (2 weeks off!!).

Not bullshitted for 9 years now.


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## Yetman (Nov 10, 2011)

We were meant to go out one Sunday with my mrs mum and family but we got wrecked the night before so my mrs, when her mum rang blurted out that she was at the hospital with me cos I'd been beaten up in town! I wasnt too happy about this, so to take the piss I got some crutches, a nose plaster, a full head bandage and sling on with the intention of making the mrs feel really bad as her mum would feel so sorry for me. Didnt go through with it in the end but was hilarious as I walked back into the party dragging my leg and all wrapped up in bandages


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## Yelkcub (Nov 10, 2011)

100% masahiko said:


> I've done this twice.
> 
> Lied to my manager that my brother died. And he gave me two weeks off (result!!).
> 
> ...



Did you not feel bad about it?


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## bi0boy (Nov 10, 2011)

Yelkcub said:


> Pretend funerals are pretty bad use of other people's compassion I'd say.



Not really. How many employers would feel genuine compassion for someone they had never met? It's not like he's telling his mum that his girlfriend has got cancer to avoid the Christmas dinner


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## bi0boy (Nov 10, 2011)

.


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## 100% masahiko (Nov 10, 2011)

Yelkcub said:


> Did you not feel bad about it?



No not really.
Both companies were real bad, aggressive and would make us feel bad for taking annual leave.
It was the right decision at the time.


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## Yu_Gi_Oh (Nov 11, 2011)

Yelkcub said:


> Employees should also remember what lies they've told. Bloke who was off sick yesterday, was bright as a button when he bounced into the office today and clearly had no idea why I asked him how he was feeling today



But surely like most places, your employee will have a set number of sick days he can take per year.  I don't really see it as your places to 'verify' the validity of his sickness, if he's not taken more sickies than he's entitled to.  You can self-certify for a week can't you?  In that case I'd wind your neck in tbh.


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## Geri (Nov 11, 2011)

stuff_it said:


> I did that to go do a club night in London, and ended up getting drugged and raped by a group of men...I never did it again.


You think the two are connected?


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## nadia (Nov 11, 2011)

I always think its bad karma to lie about stuff like that.


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## stuff_it (Nov 11, 2011)

Geri said:


> You think the two are connected?





nadia said:


> I always think its bad karma to lie about stuff like that.


See quote #2


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## Geri (Nov 11, 2011)

There's no such thing as karma - it's hippy bullshit.


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## stuff_it (Nov 11, 2011)

Geri said:


> There's no such thing as karma - it's hippy bullshit.


Beg to differ.


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## Greebo (Nov 11, 2011)

nadia said:


> I always think its bad karma to lie about stuff like that.


This - I'm not saying that bad consequences would always follow lying about something in order to get time off, but I'd rather not tempt fate.


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## Yelkcub (Nov 11, 2011)

Yu_Gi_Oh said:


> But surely like most places, your employee will have a set number of sick days he can take per year. I don't really see it as your places to 'verify' the validity of his sickness, if he's not taken more sickies than he's entitled to. You can self-certify for a week can't you? In that case I'd wind your neck in tbh.



No set number of days here. When you're sick you're sick. When you're lying, you're lying. When you forget you've lied and make that very obvious, but you're normally good at your job and reliable, it's a minor amusement.

My neck wasn't out to wind in.


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## Kanda (Nov 11, 2011)

Yu_Gi_Oh said:


> But surely like most places, your employee will have a set number of sick days he can take per year. I don't really see it as your places to 'verify' the validity of his sickness, if he's not taken more sickies than he's entitled to. You can self-certify for a week can't you? In that case I'd wind your neck in tbh.



Are you saying you see 'sick days' as an extension to 'holiday entitlement'??


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## Badgers (Nov 11, 2011)

Global Stoner said:


> Cos that always works.



Better to tell an employer you have money issues than do what the OP did surely? I know there are bastard employers out there but also those that could assist with extra hours, employee loan or similar.


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## Badgers (Nov 11, 2011)

Kanda said:


> Are you saying you see 'sick days' as an extension to 'holiday entitlement'??



Duvet Day


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## Yelkcub (Nov 11, 2011)

Kanda said:


> Are you saying you see 'sick days' as an extension to 'holiday entitlement'??



I've had TUPE'd workers before who have a sick day entitlement in their contracts. They would indeed use it as holiday, so I'd know if they got towards the end of the year with some left they'd be going sick to use it up.


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## Kanda (Nov 11, 2011)

Yelkcub said:


> I've had TUPE'd workers before who have a sick day entitlement in their contracts. They would indeed use it as holiday, so I'd know if they got towards the end of the year with some left they'd be going sick to use it up.



That takes the piss....!


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## TopCat (Nov 11, 2011)

Lots of employers lie through their teeth to the employees so don't think this is all one sided.


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## kabbes (Nov 11, 2011)

Yelkcub, can you see no connection at all between your employees lying to you to get time off and you giving an employee shit for wanting to come in an hour late on his wife's birthday?  No connection whatsoever?


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## Yelkcub (Nov 11, 2011)

kabbes said:


> Yelkcub, can you see no connection at all between your employees lying to you to get time off and you giving an employee shit for wanting to come in an hour late on his wife's birthday? No connection whatsoever?



No, none whatsover. Particularly as you've decided to omit the context of him informing me that he'd decided not to come in and miss the most vital part of his working day, by email, at 10 or 11pm the night before, for an event known about for years


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## kabbes (Nov 11, 2011)

Yelkcub said:


> No, none whatsover. Particularly as you've decided to omit the context of him informing me that he'd decided not to come in and miss the most vital part of his working day, by email, at 10 or 11pm the night before, for an event known about for years


Context is always important but the key point doesn't change.  If people decide that their boss is unreasonable (in their view, not yours), they won't change their _behaviour_, they'll just find ways to avoid the consequences.


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## Yelkcub (Nov 11, 2011)

kabbes said:


> Context is always important but the key point doesn't change. If people decide that their boss is unreasonable (in their view, not yours), they won't change their _behaviour_, they'll just find ways to avoid the consequences.



They might.

The chap with the missus birthday doesn't think I'm unreasonable. He knows it wasn't a reasonable request at that late notice and accepted my decision.

The chap with the fake sickness, could have booked holiday and saved me doing an ad hoc reshuffle to get the same amount of lorries on the road, which resulted in a harder day for his colleagues. Planned absence wouldn't have been a problem.


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## Belushi (Nov 11, 2011)

Yu_Gi_Oh said:


> But surely like most places, your employee will have a set number of sick days he can take per year. I don't really see it as your places to 'verify' the validity of his sickness, if he's not taken more sickies than he's entitled to. You can self-certify for a week can't you? In that case I'd wind your neck in tbh.



I don't think I've ever worked anywhere with a set number of sick days.


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## fractionMan (Nov 11, 2011)

I'd only do something like this if I thought my boss was a massive wanker who paid me peanuts.


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## kabbes (Nov 11, 2011)

One way or other, you do seem to have a problem with your employees lying to you, though.  Either you're just _really_ unlucky or there is some systemic problem with some aspect of their work experience and how this relates to management.

Not trying to points-score here, I'm actually saying it because it's something that, as the manager, you might want to consider.


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## DotCommunist (Nov 11, 2011)

I've worked places where if your sick days exceed x amount in x period of time, questions will be asked possible disciplinary procedures may arise etc


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## quimcunx (Nov 11, 2011)

The US seems to have a x amount of sick day allowance and using it  up at the end of the year, legitimately.   By which I mean someone mentioned on Scrubs or Will and Grace or summat.

If you sleep in because you were pissed the night before then it's often better to say you're ill and get the day off to lounge than to say you've slept in because you got pissed last night and have to use a day's annual leave or go in late.


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## Kanda (Nov 11, 2011)

quimcunx said:


> If you sleep in because you were pissed the night before then it's often better to say you're ill and get the day off to lounge than to say you've slept in because you got pissed last night and have to use a day's annual leave or go in late.



Is it really??? Just get up and go to work, it's not like you didn't know it was a schoolnight when you got pissed is it... 

I used to always come in late and pissed, used to piss me off when the people I was out with (from work) phoned in sick


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## stuff_it (Nov 11, 2011)

Yelkcub said:


> They might.
> 
> The chap with the missus birthday doesn't think I'm unreasonable. He knows it wasn't a reasonable request at that late notice and accepted my decision.
> 
> The chap with the fake sickness, could have booked holiday and saved me doing an ad hoc reshuffle to get the same amount of lorries on the road, which resulted in a harder day for his colleagues. Planned absence wouldn't have been a problem.


If you don't sack him then this is exactly what you should tell him.



Kanda said:


> Is it really??? Just get up and go to work, it's not like you didn't know it was a schoolnight when you got pissed is it...
> 
> I used to always come in late and pissed, used to piss me off when the people I was out with (from work) phoned in sick


Innit, it's your own fault if you got that wasted.

I've known people dropped off to full time office jobs in their raving clothes at 11am on the Tuesday and still be offered a permanent position.

Mr _it stormed out of work the week he got back from Boomtown, he was on a bit of a comedown and pissed off as someone else on his shift had nicked his holiday request and got their own holiday booked when he'd planned two weeks off (!), his boss just shrugged it off... 'I use to get like that back when I used to go out and take pills too' is what he said iirc.


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## Belushi (Nov 11, 2011)

DotCommunist said:


> I've worked places where if your sick days exceed x amount in x period of time, questions will be asked possible disciplinary procedures may arise etc



Yes, sickness policies often have 'trigger-points' but I haven't worked anywhere with a 'set amount of days', perhaps I'm misunderstanding what that means.

Its usually the number of occasions people take sick rather than just the number of days that we look at in HR. If someone takes five separate days off sick it will set alarm bells ringing more than someone who takes five days off in one go.


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## quimcunx (Nov 11, 2011)

Belushi said:


> Yes, sickness policies often have 'trigger-points' but I haven't worked anywhere with a 'set amount of days', perhaps I'm misunderstanding what that means.
> 
> Its usually the number of occasions people take sick rather than just the number of days that we look at in HR. If someone takes five separate days off sick it will set alarm bells ringing more than someone who takes five days off in one go.



Unless HR are idiots.   A friend of mine had to have a meeting to talk about her sick days on account of HR policy  and having had a total of more than two weeks off.   Ignore the fact that the only days off she'd had were for an operation convalescence and breaking her leg*. 

*or something like that.


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## Yelkcub (Nov 11, 2011)

kabbes said:


> One way or other, you do seem to have a problem with your employees lying to you, though. Either you're just _really_ unlucky or there is some systemic problem with some aspect of their work experience and how this relates to management.
> 
> Not trying to points-score here, I'm actually saying it because it's something that, as the manager, you might want to consider.



Nah, no more or less than in similar companies. There's not much discussion to be had around the majority of them that don't lie to me, though so I 100% of the post you've seen don't represent the full reality of my workplace.


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## TopCat (Nov 11, 2011)

kabbes said:


> Yelkcub, can you see no connection at all between your employees lying to you to get time off and you giving an employee shit for wanting to come in an hour late on his wife's birthday? No connection whatsoever?


It's amazing how yelcub is soo much more assertive at work than at home.


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## Yelkcub (Nov 11, 2011)

TopCat said:


> It's amazing how yelcub is soo much more assertive at work than at home.



Maybe she taught me a lesson TC.


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## Kanda (Nov 11, 2011)

TopCat said:


> It's amazing how yelcub is soo much more assertive at work than at home.



It's not though is it. Not at all really. Many people are different at work than at home...


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## TopCat (Nov 11, 2011)

Yelkcub said:


> The chap with the missus birthday doesn't think I'm unreasonable. He knows it wasn't a reasonable request at that late notice and accepted my decision.



He is just probably scared to be without work so "agreed" with you.


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## TopCat (Nov 11, 2011)

Yelkcub said:


> Maybe she taught me a lesson TC.


Not the right one it seems.


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## stuff_it (Nov 11, 2011)

TopCat said:


> It's amazing how yelcub is soo much more assertive at work than at home.





Yelkcub said:


> Maybe she taught me a lesson TC.


You played 'Teacher' with the blokes wife who's birthday it was!?!?

I somehow would have more admiration for you if this were the case.


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## Yelkcub (Nov 11, 2011)

TopCat said:


> He is just probably scared to be without work so "agreed" with you.



Nah, he was never endanger of being out of work, disciplined or anything else.


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## TopCat (Nov 11, 2011)

Yelkcub said:


> Nah, he was never endanger of being out of work, disciplined or anything else.


But you have power over him so he "agreed" with you.


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## Yelkcub (Nov 11, 2011)

TopCat said:


> But you have power over him so he "agreed" with you.



To be honest, other than here, where in every employer/employee situation, the employee is percieved to be correct and the employer incorrect, I can't imagine anyone wouldn't agree with me.


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## TopCat (Nov 11, 2011)

Yelkcub said:


> To be honest, other than here, where in every employer/employee situation, the employee is percieved to be correct and the employer incorrect, I can't imagine anyone wouldn't agree with me.


You self delusion will take to you to the top.


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## Belushi (Nov 11, 2011)

Accepting your bosses decision is different to agreeing with it.


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## Yelkcub (Nov 11, 2011)

TopCat said:


> You self delusion will take to you to the top.



Really?

So, if you asked randoms on the street whether 10pm the night before a day shift was a reasonable time to inform your employer that you weren't coming in for the most impotant part of your shift due to an event that happens on the same day every year, they'd say it was?

And _*I'm *_deluded?


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## stuff_it (Nov 11, 2011)

Yelkcub said:


> Really?
> 
> So, if you asked randoms on the street whether 10pm the night before a day shift was a reasonable time to inform your employer that you weren't coming in for the most impotant part of your shift due to an event that happens on the same day every year, they'd say it was?
> 
> And _*I'm *_deluded?


Clearly he didn't think you would give him the time off or he'd have just asked.

Maybe you need to have a staff meeting where you say what you said in that other post, about how it's nearly always ok if they ask to take it as holiday or just unpaid leave, but to please actually just tell you. Then you aren't directing it at anyone in particular. Even if you are not the sort of boss who would say no or refuse spuriously clearly they _think_ you are, as this does keep happening.


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## FunkyUK (Nov 11, 2011)

Girl who works worked here "killed off" her Grandfather, Mother, and younger brother all in the space of a year, just for compassionate leave. bitch

Her mother started posting on facebook again shortly before she left.


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## UnderAnOpenSky (Nov 11, 2011)

FunkyUK said:


> Girl who works worked here "killed off" her Grandfather, Mother, and younger brother all in the space of a year, just for compassionate leave. bitch
> 
> Her mother started posting on facebook again shortly before she left.



This is yet another reason not to add people you work with.


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## Yelkcub (Nov 11, 2011)

stuff_it said:


> Clearly he didn't think you would give him the time off or he'd have just asked.
> 
> Maybe you need to have a staff meeting where you say what you said in that other post, about how it's nearly always ok if they ask to take it as holiday or just unpaid leave, but to please actually just tell you. Then you aren't directing it at anyone in particular. Even if you are not the sort of boss who would say no or refuse spuriously clearly they _think_ you are, as this does keep happening.



My guess is that he decided he wanted the time off at short notice, when it wouldn't be reasonable for me to allow it.

As posted above, it happens now and again with a small minority, a few incidents, not a trend.


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## Edie (Nov 11, 2011)

You shouldn't really do it, should you, killing off family members for a day in bed. Never had the bollocks myself cos I just couldn't pull off the necessary acting on return. But I have told some massive lies regarding children's illness to get off work when I just wanted to spend time with them


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## Edie (Nov 11, 2011)

stuff_it said:


> I did that to go do a club night in London, and ended up getting drugged and raped by a group of men...I never did it again.


Fuckin HELL mate


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## stuff_it (Nov 11, 2011)

Edie said:


> Fuckin HELL mate


It was a pretty crap weekend all in all, just before that happened my boyfriend of three years dumped me, and afterwards if it wasn't our rig in one of the rooms they would have thrown me out of the club with no money, keys, phone, top (bar a high viz raving jacket lent off a mate), etc to walk to *fuckknowswhere* from Leightonstone.


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## Edie (Nov 11, 2011)

stuff_it said:


> It was a pretty crap weekend all in all, just before that happened my boyfriend of three years dumped me, and afterwards if it wasn't our rig in one of the rooms they would have thrown me out of the club with no money, keys, phone, top (bar a high viz raving jacket lent off a mate), etc to walk to *fuckknowswhere* from Leightonstone.


Wtf happend to the fuckin pricks that raped you? Jesus are you alright to talk about it just as casual like this? No reason you shouldn't btw, just don't wanna put my foot in it.

Take care babes x


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## stuff_it (Nov 11, 2011)

Edie said:


> Wtf happend to the fuckin pricks that raped you? Jesus are you alright to talk about it just as casual like this? No reason you shouldn't btw, just don't wanna put my foot in it.
> 
> Take care babes x


Nowt. We were never that sure it wasn't the bouncers tbf.


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## equationgirl (Nov 11, 2011)

DotCommunist said:


> I've worked places where if your sick days exceed x amount in x period of time, questions will be asked possible disciplinary procedures may arise etc


I work at a place like that. They have a formula that calculates a sickness absence score (look up Bradford factor). Except it's really meant to keep an eye on sickie-taking rather than disability-related absence like mine is, so my score is about 100 times their 'limit' for disciplinary procedure invoking. After a bit of reading up on the legislation changes (me and the union) we persuaded HR to disregard absence due to disability to make my score more realistic.

Lying to work elsewhere is a bit stupid. It's all very well saying that you've written him a letter, but if you've not followed the company disciplinary procedures for gross misconduct, he may be able to take you to a tribunal for unfair dismissal.


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## equationgirl (Nov 11, 2011)

stuff_it said:


> It was a pretty crap weekend all in all, just before that happened my boyfriend of three years dumped me, and afterwards if it wasn't our rig in one of the rooms they would have thrown me out of the club with no money, keys, phone, top (bar a high viz raving jacket lent off a mate), etc to walk to *fuckknowswhere* from Leightonstone.





Sorry to hear that, stuff_it - good karma on the way soon I hope.

Hope the fuckers got what they deserved


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## Geri (Nov 11, 2011)

DotCommunist said:


> I've worked places where if your sick days exceed x amount in x period of time, questions will be asked possible disciplinary procedures may arise etc



I had 3 1/2 days sick leave last year - however, because they were three separate periods within 26 weeks, they were flagged up on some spreadsheet and my boss kept getting calls from personnel asking if I had a "problem". What wasn't obvious from this spreadsheet was that I was actually ill for 3-4 days at a time, but I struggled in on the other days. If I am ill again I will take the whole period instead of bothering to try and make it in, as it looks less like you are skiving if you have 3 days off sick instead of struggling in for 2 days and then taking one off.


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## equationgirl (Nov 13, 2011)

I hate this anti-illness culture that has pervaded the workplace. It is not a crime to be ill.

My boss asked occupational health for a guarantee that I was never going to be off sick again


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## Geri (Nov 13, 2011)

My boss told the bloke from HR to piss off and put the phone down on him!   Then when he called back, he asked him for details of the average number of sick days taken, and mine, and mine was lower than average.


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## Part 2 (Nov 13, 2011)

When we were out most nights on pills my mate once rang work to tell them he wouldn't be in because he'd been burgled and had to have new locks etc. When he went in the next day they'd had a whip round for him.


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## scifisam (Nov 13, 2011)

quimcunx said:


> The US seems to have a x amount of sick day allowance and using it up at the end of the year, legitimately. By which I mean someone mentioned on Scrubs or Will and Grace or summat.
> 
> If you sleep in because you were pissed the night before then it's often better to say you're ill and get the day off to lounge than to say you've slept in because you got pissed last night and have to use a day's annual leave or go in late.



Yep - sick days and holidays are the same thing. And are like ten days a year for ordinary people. I've had friends say they can't call in sick for the second day after an operation because they'd use up all their sick days, alongside friends using their sick days to go visit said ill friend. It just means 'paid days off work.'


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## tommers (Nov 13, 2011)

My mate at work just lost his dad and had to fill out a 'compassionate leave request' which asked for a copy of the death certificate.

This is from a charity too, not even a private company.


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## Mrs Magpie (Nov 13, 2011)

tommers said:


> This is from a charity too, not even a private company.


Having worked for charities I can tell you some are dreadful employers. They feel you should be working for nothing and because they're a charity, employment law doesn't really apply to them.


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## tommers (Nov 13, 2011)

Tell me about it. The one who took over our contract in the summer have just asked us to take a 20% pay cut.  And they say they will dismiss us and then offer the revised terms as a way of avoiding redundancy if we don't agree.

Utter cunts


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## discokermit (Nov 13, 2011)

lying to employers about anything is perfectly acceptable. in fact, it is desirable. also, treat anything said by an employer as a lie until proven otherwise.


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## tommers (Nov 13, 2011)

discokermit said:


> lying to employers about anything is perfectly acceptable. in fact, it is desirable. also, treat anything said by an employer as a lie until proven otherwise.




Exactly. Fuck them.


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## SpookyFrank (Nov 13, 2011)

discokermit said:


> lying to employers about anything is perfectly acceptable. in fact, it is desirable. also, treat anything said by an employer as a lie until proven otherwise.



We had to wait until page four for this. Shame on the lot of you.

The employer/employee relationship is, by definition, a massive fucking scam. Anything done to redress the balance in favour of the worker is perfectly justified.

The OP may think he is a 'nice' manager with the best interests of his staff at heart, but as he should have learned from the situation in the OP that does not lessen the contempt in which he is held by them, if anything it makes it worse. Because by being nice to his staff he is lying to them, he is acting as though their fate does not lie in his hands, he is acting as though he considers them his equals without in any way treating them as such. The fact that this appears to be news to him suggests that he may not be very bright.


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## 1927 (Nov 13, 2011)

Where i work they dont pay sick pay, just SSP after 3 days.


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## grit (Nov 13, 2011)

SpookyFrank said:


> . Because by being nice to his staff he is lying to them, he is acting as though their fate does not lie in his hands, he is acting as though he considers them his equals without in any way treating them as such. The fact that this appears to be news to him suggests that he may not be very bright.



There is no guarntee that the direct manager has the authority in the company to fire them. They aren't equals, they are subordinates.


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## SpookyFrank (Nov 13, 2011)

grit said:


> They aren't equals, they are subordinates.



I don't believe in subordinates, only arseholes who call other people subordinate.


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## grit (Nov 13, 2011)

SpookyFrank said:


> I don't believe in subordinates, only arseholes who call other people subordinate.



Must be difficult functioning in a work place with a hierarchy.


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## SpookyFrank (Nov 13, 2011)

grit said:


> Must be difficult functioning in a work place with a hierarchy.



Which is precisely why I don't work in a workplace with hierarchy.


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## grit (Nov 13, 2011)

SpookyFrank said:


> Which is precisely why I don't work in a workplace with hierarchy.



A rare occurrence. What sort of work do you do?


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## SpookyFrank (Nov 13, 2011)

I have a part time job with a worker's co-op, I give guitar lessons and I do various odd jobs as and when they arise.


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## grit (Nov 13, 2011)

SpookyFrank said:


> I have a part time job with a worker's co-op, I give guitar lessons and I do various odd jobs as and when they arise.



Fair enough, dont think I'd personally be willing to reduce my options for employment by taking such a stance regarding hierarchies.


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## discokermit (Nov 13, 2011)

i'm subordinate to no cunt.


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## grit (Nov 13, 2011)

discokermit said:


> i'm subordinate to no cunt.



Another co-op worker?


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## discokermit (Nov 13, 2011)

grit said:


> Another co-op worker?


no. i've worked in heirarchical workplaces. i just don't accept anyone elses authority over me.

mind you, i do get sacked a lot.


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## kabbes (Nov 14, 2011)

I work in a financial organisation that employs a range of professionals and specialists.  Our organisation -- at least the head office where I am employed (I can't speak for the regional back office because I've only been there once) -- is non-hierarchical.  There are teams and those teams have managers, but that is really just as a conduit for the various HR processes that businesses have to do if they want to keep things running smoothly.

We work in cross-specialist teams to which people bring their own skill sets.  The projects will have project managers, but those project managers have no more senior or junior a position as anybody else.  There are no grades or levels or anything like that.  The only distinction is that of a senior management team (i.e. CEO, CFO, company secretary and so on) but within any given project (as opposed to company organisation), even they don't particularly have "seniority" as such.

This all works a thousand times better than the deeply hierarchical companies I have worked in.  There is considerably more trust and people do a lot more off their own back -- they are more likely to be proactive and to consider the big picture when making decisions and taking actions.

There is always an excuse for why a lack of hierarchy won't work for this or that type of organisation.  I think this is mostly bullshit and really comes down to those in senior positions wanting to hold onto power over others.  Hierarchy is what companies tend to default to for the same reason that society itself seems only to ready to accrete power and wealthy to an ever smaller number of individuals.  That doesn't mean that it is the only way, though, nor that it is the best way.


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## Yelkcub (Nov 14, 2011)

discokermit said:


> no. i've worked in heirarchical workplaces. i just don't accept anyone elses authority over me.
> 
> mind you, i do get sacked a lot.


 
That's certainly sticking it to the man!


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## grit (Nov 14, 2011)

kabbes said:


> I work in a financial organisation that employs a range of professionals and specialists. Our organisation -- at least the head office where I am employed (I can't speak for the regional back office because I've only been there once) -- is non-hierarchical. There are teams and those teams have managers, but that is really just as a conduit for the various HR processes that businesses have to do if they want to keep things running smoothly.
> 
> We work in cross-specialist teams to which people bring their own skill sets. The projects will have project managers, but those project managers have no more senior or junior a position as anybody else. There are no grades or levels or anything like that. The only distinction is that of a senior management team (i.e. CEO, CFO, company secretary and so on) but within any given project (as opposed to company organisation), even they don't particularly have "seniority" as such.
> 
> ...



Such structures are usually supported by the fact that the workers are doing interesting work and feel appropriately rewarded for their efforts. I've worked in similar places, where anyone below the board were essentially peers, perhaps not offically but thats how day to day business was conducted.

I think this talk about motivation is relevant


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## ddraig (Nov 14, 2011)

Yelkcub said:


> That's certainly sticking it to the man!


at least he retains HIS integrity


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## Yelkcub (Nov 14, 2011)

ddraig said:


> at least he retains HIS integrity



Yes, of course, telling lies does that for you, doesn't it?


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## ddraig (Nov 14, 2011)

Yelkcub said:


> Yes, of course, telling lies does that for you, doesn't it?


no my (and his) point was about not accepting that yo uare 'subordinate' to anyone else at work, nothing to do with lies


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## grit (Nov 14, 2011)

ddraig said:


> no my (and his) point was about not accepting that yo uare 'subordinate' to anyone else at work, nothing to do with lies



But you are, you accept instructions from others. I think you are applying some emotional baggage to the word itself.


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## Yelkcub (Nov 14, 2011)

ddraig said:


> no my (and his) point was about not accepting that yo uare 'subordinate' to anyone else at work, nothing to do with lies



Oh, I see - I misunderstood - apologies, though I would argue that the deceit involved in taking a job in which you have no intent in accepting orders, when it's an integral requirement, is tantamount to lying.


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## ddraig (Nov 14, 2011)

oh ffs 

how about this
someone does a job, they know what their job is and they get on with it
someone has a manager who sometimes might have to tell them bits about their job

this can function without the need for enforcement of the fact that they consider you 'subordinate' to them
can u see that or going to split more hairs now?


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## Yelkcub (Nov 14, 2011)

ddraig said:


> oh ffs
> how about this
> someone does a job, they know what their job is and they get on with it
> someone has a manager who sometimes might have to tell them bits about their jo
> ...



There's no hairs being split - why should anyone need to enforce the agreement you signed up to, to do what's asked of you?


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## Yelkcub (Nov 14, 2011)

grit said:


> But you are, you accept instructions from others. I think you are applying some emotional baggage to the word itself.



Yes, 'subordinate' appears to be negative, when we all take orders, or are given information about what we are being paid do, however you dress it up. There's nothing wrong with it.


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## ddraig (Nov 14, 2011)

you still don't get it! but then you are a boss i guess


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## grit (Nov 14, 2011)

ddraig said:


> oh ffs
> 
> how about this
> someone does a job, they know what their job is and they get on with it
> ...



Its a nice thought, however it relies on the incorrect assumption that all workers are motivated to keep their end of the deal.

No real manager, wants to have to discipline workers, its a pain in the arse..


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## discokermit (Nov 14, 2011)

grit said:


> the incorrect assumption that all workers are motivated to keep their end of the deal.


why should we be? it's a fucking shit deal.


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## discokermit (Nov 14, 2011)

Yelkcub said:


> Yes, of course, telling lies does that for you, doesn't it?


yes it does. management are the enemy. lying to the enemy is to be encouraged.

you taking the moral high ground with me? you who was talking about taking away a bloke's livelihood earlier in the thread because he _lied_ to you? like you're fucking zeus or summat sitting on your mountain deciding who's worthy of being able to eat? fucking cheek.

here's some news, gaffer. _they all lie to you_.

they probably all hate you behind your back as well (they can't do it to your face as you would probably sack them) and take the piss.


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## fractionMan (Nov 14, 2011)

grit said:


> No real manager, wants to have to discipline workers, its a pain in the arse..



Yeah, why can't they just do as their told eh?

(((managers)))


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## discokermit (Nov 14, 2011)

moral high horse?



Yelkcub said:


> To me that's despicable, and makes me temporarily question my 'never question anything that serious' policy.


that's "collective punishment" that is.

you're saying that because some upstart had the temerity to lie to you, you're now going to interrogate every underling you deem suspicious, no matter what personal trauma they are going through? they're going to have to go through all that justification for a day off from making your company money, because your moral sensibilities have been offended by one person one time?


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## grit (Nov 14, 2011)

fractionMan said:


> Yeah, why can't they just do as their told eh?
> 
> (((managers)))



Its simple, you signed up to an agreement as an employee, do what you said you are going to do or fuck off. I've been both a boss and an employee in my life, neither I particularly enjoyed. However in anything in life, few things annoy me as cunts who say they are going to do something and then dont.

(disclaimer I'm a bit pissed after the pub)


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## discokermit (Nov 14, 2011)

grit said:


> Its simple, you signed up to an agreement as an employee,


we're forced to. we never get to write the agreement, do we?


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## grit (Nov 14, 2011)

discokermit said:


> we're forced to. we never get to write the agreement, do we?



They grabbed your hand and force-ably had you sign the contract? Agressive HR policies.

You dont get to write the agreement, probably get to change small parts, but you at the least you should be fucking reading the thing.


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## fractionMan (Nov 14, 2011)

grit said:


> However in anything in life, few things annoy me as cunts who say they are going to do something and then dont.



My boss says he's going to do stuff and doesn't. He's also a cunt.  In fact he does fuck all but blame other people for his fuck ups.


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## discokermit (Nov 14, 2011)

grit said:


> They grabbed your hand and force-ably had you sign the contract? Agressive HR policies.
> 
> You dont get to write the agreement, probably get to change small parts, but you at the least you should be fucking reading the thing.


what alternative do i have to signing their contract? signing someone elses contract? that's coercion.


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## grit (Nov 14, 2011)

fractionMan said:


> My boss says he's going to do stuff and doesn't. He's also a cunt. In fact he does fuck all but blame other people for his fuck ups.



Sounds like a shit manager, they are out there, but there are also good ones.


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## grit (Nov 14, 2011)

discokermit said:


> what alternative do i have to signing their contract? signing someone elses contract? that's coercion.



You can do whatever you like.


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## fractionMan (Nov 14, 2011)

grit said:


> You can do whatever you like.



Choice.


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## grit (Nov 14, 2011)

fractionMan said:


> Choice.



Its a wonderful thing.


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## discokermit (Nov 14, 2011)

grit said:


> You can do whatever you like.


work/sign on/starve. them's my options. except i can't sign on giving the reason as "refusal to take part in unfair working conditions", so it's work or starve. coercion.


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## discokermit (Nov 14, 2011)

grit said:


> Its a wonderful thing.


it's a myth.


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## equationgirl (Nov 14, 2011)

fractionMan said:


> My boss says he's going to do stuff and doesn't. He's also a cunt. In fact he does fuck all but blame other people for his fuck ups.


Like mine too - somebody takes holidays everytime our annual new projects meeting come round


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## fractionMan (Nov 14, 2011)

grit said:


> Its a wonderful thing.



yeah, everyone likes starving to death


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## Yelkcub (Nov 14, 2011)

The suspension of all reason with regard to employment situations shown here sometimes borders on lunacy.


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## grit (Nov 14, 2011)

fractionMan said:


> yeah, everyone likes starving to death



eh........ right.


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## grit (Nov 14, 2011)

Yelkcub said:


> The suspension of all reason with regard to employment situations shown here sometimes borders on lunacy.



Its kept simple though in fairness, everyone above you is a cunt. A simple and concise message.


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## fractionMan (Nov 14, 2011)

grit said:


> eh........ right.



What?

You're saying you've got a choice.  A choice between?


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## discokermit (Nov 14, 2011)

fractionMan said:


> What?
> 
> You're saying you've got a choice. A choice between?


work for some cunt, or work for some other cunt.


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## grit (Nov 14, 2011)

discokermit said:


> work for some cunt, or work for some other cunt.



Or work for the BIGGEST cunt, yourself 

j/k


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## discokermit (Nov 14, 2011)

grit said:


> Or work for the BIGGEST cunt, yourself
> 
> j/k


that's one of the ways they've destroyed terms and conditions in my industry.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Nov 15, 2011)

kabbes said:


> I work in a financial organisation that employs a range of professionals and specialists. Our organisation -- at least the head office where I am employed (I can't speak for the regional back office because I've only been there once) -- is non-hierarchical. There are teams and those teams have managers, but that is really just as a conduit for the various HR processes that businesses have to do if they want to keep things running smoothly.
> 
> We work in cross-specialist teams to which people bring their own skill sets. The projects will have project managers, but those project managers have no more senior or junior a position as anybody else. There are no grades or levels or anything like that. The only distinction is that of a senior management team (i.e. CEO, CFO, company secretary and so on) but within any given project (as opposed to company organisation), even they don't particularly have "seniority" as such.



Should the standard of your work slip, who takes you up on that?


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## kabbes (Nov 15, 2011)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Should the standard of your work slip, who takes you up on that?


The client, whether that be an internal or external client.

That's a theoretical answer, of course.  In practice, my work is never less than world-class.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Nov 15, 2011)

Of course no one doubts the work of kabbes, but if say, Dot C managed to wing it in to your company, who would be doing the sacking? Can an internal client sack someone?


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## UnderAnOpenSky (Nov 15, 2011)

kabbes said:


> The client, whether that be an internal or external client.
> 
> That's a theoretical answer, of course. In practice, my work is never less than world-class.



You do a high powered, interesting job...lower down where job satisfaction is pretty shit, things have gone wrong if clients are complaining.


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## kabbes (Nov 15, 2011)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Of course no one doubts the work of kabbes, but if say, Dot C managed to wing it in to your company, who would be doing the sacking? Can an internal client sack someone?


We would, of course, sack the person that employed him.  And by "sack", I mean "hang from a lamp post".


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## grit (Nov 15, 2011)

Global Stoner said:


> You do a high powered, interesting job...lower down where job satisfaction is pretty shit, things have gone wrong if clients are complaining.



Dont read too much into his bollocks.


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## kabbes (Nov 15, 2011)

Global Stoner said:


> You do a high powered, interesting job...lower down where job satisfaction is pretty shit, things have gone wrong if clients are complaining.


If nobody is complaining then things might not be great but at least it shows nothing has reached crisis point.  That's something.

Look, this is all a bit like those conversations about communism or anarchism where people start to say, "Ah!  But who cleans the toilet?!"  as if they have just thought of the most insightful criticism yet discovered and all of Marxism will collapse around it.

The truth is that _people generally know how to do their jobs_.  The further truth is that _if people feel relaxed and trusted, they will tend to do better jobs_.  Put those together and you discover that you don't really _need_ much in the way of hierarchy for the vast majority of the time.  It actually gets in the way and creates as much inefficiency and demotivation as it fixes.

I'm not talking about a worker's utopia here.  I'm just talking about the pragmatic reality of human psychology, that people tend to do more and do it better when they believe that they are trusted, relied upon and valued rather than being forced to do tasks by petty bureaucrats and workplace tyrants.


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## kabbes (Nov 15, 2011)

grit said:


> Dont read too much into his bollocks.


I'm sure he can work out what to read into what by himself.  But thanks for your thoughtful insight.


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## grit (Nov 15, 2011)

kabbes said:


> I'm sure he can work out what to read into what by himself. But thanks for your thoughtful insight.



Yeah you are right, that was a bit of a knee jerk response during a bad moment. It initially appeared that you were being a bit disingenuous regarding the organisational structure you work in.


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## kabbes (Nov 15, 2011)

Uh-oh.  Did you say... disingenuous??


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## grit (Nov 15, 2011)

kabbes said:


> Uh-oh. Did you say... disingenuous??



Yeah...


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## kabbes (Nov 15, 2011)

You must have missed it. A poster recently took serious umbrage at my use of the word disingenuous. Apparently using it means you are a pompous arsehole. So now you know.

(Oh yeah, and using it exactly as you just used it also means you are using it wrong)


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## grit (Nov 15, 2011)

kabbes said:


> You must have missed it. A poster recently took serious umbrage at my use of the word disingenuous. Apparently using it means you are a pompous arsehole. So now you know.
> 
> (Oh yeah, and using it exactly as you just used it also means you are using it wrong)



How so? To my mind its being insincere.


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## kabbes (Nov 15, 2011)

Yes, you aren't using it wrong.  The other poster was just being a moron in saying that it was wrong.  A moron who wanted to look clever but had an epic fail instead.

I half-thought you had used the word disingenuous for exactly that reason.  I'm glad to see not and that people do just use the word in everyday life.


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## grit (Nov 15, 2011)

kabbes said:


> Yes, you aren't using it wrong. The other poster was just being a moron in saying that it was wrong. A moron who wanted to look clever but had an epic fail instead.
> 
> I half-thought you had used the word disingenuous for exactly that reason. I'm glad to see not and *that people do just use the word in everyday life*.



Yeah, only us pompous arseholes though


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## kabbes (Nov 15, 2011)

Life's not worth living
Without a little pomposity
But a little pomposity
Is never enough.


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## DotCommunist (Nov 15, 2011)

kabbes said:


> Life's not worth living
> Without a little pomposity
> But a little pomposity
> Is never enough.


 
Be young, be resilient
be strong, be fucking brilliant


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## kabbes (Nov 15, 2011)

When I was young, so much younger than today
I didn't think I needed
Disingenuous in any way.


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## Pinette (Nov 24, 2011)

kabbes said:


> When I was young, so much younger than today
> I didn't think I needed
> Disingenuous in any way.


.... Cos I was such a shit and thought I knew it all
And then realised I was pissing up the wall
Tell me Mr Lexicon what you have here for me
Am I just a phony arse or can I ever be
Like Kabbes.....


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## DownwardDog (Nov 24, 2011)

discokermit said:


> yes it does. management are the enemy. lying to the enemy is to be encouraged.



Exactly. The company couldn't give a shit if you live or die so return the favour.

I knew someone who invented a ficticious highly disabled son, complete with photograph on the desk called "Ian". Whenever he fancied an afternoon to play golf or whatever he'd just stop by his boss' office and pull a sad face. The boss would say "Ian?", my mate would then nod gravely and leave the office for the day.


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