# Is only one policeman at G20 going to be investigated? What about the other thugs?



## nick h. (Apr 7, 2009)

I can understand the press wanting to focus on the officer who pushed over Ian Tomlinson, but what about the 10 or 20 going postal in the infamous climate camp video   They shouldn't get away with it. But the press haven't mentioned the video. Does anybody know whether any protesters are making complaints? Maybe they weren't injured so there's nothing to complain about.  

Perhaps poor Ian Tomlinson's death will bring about improved policing at future demos so we can forget about the climate camp brutality?

I must have watched the video 20 times and I'm still horrified and outraged by it. I want to do something, but being a self-taught health journalist I'm hardly qualified. I keep hoping to see the Guardian or somebody go to town on it but now they've got the Ian Tomlinson video I suppose the climate camp is not a priority.


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## eoin_k (Apr 8, 2009)

Check out Guardian column by Duncan Campbell today.


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## albionism (Apr 8, 2009)

> Perhaps poor Ian Tomlinson's death will bring about improved policing at future demos so we can forget about the climate camp brutality?



I fear we haven't seen anything yet and the Police/State will become ever more violent.


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## nopassaran (Apr 8, 2009)

nick h. said:


> I must have watched the video 20 times and I'm still horrified and outraged by it. I want to do something, but being a self-taught health journalist I'm hardly qualified. I keep hoping to see the Guardian or somebody go to town on it but now they've got the Ian Tomlinson video I suppose the climate camp is not a priority.



I feel much the same way, but despite not having attended the demonstration, my impression from the video footage on Youtube and live news coverage on the day, is that the indiscriminate violence meted out by the Police was not just confined solely to the climate camp. The tactics employed were oppressive to say the least and had all the hallmarks of a policy aimed at discouraging people from participating in public protests for fear of becoming the victim of police aggression. I think in many respects we are getting a real taste of what it is like to live in a police state.

From the coverage I have seen I think it is more than fair to assume that that many people suffered varying degrees of injury as a consequence of the Police actions, but I'm also aware that people are reluctant to lodge formal complaints for a number of reasons. In which case there needs to be some other means of recording the number of people injured by Police actions on demonstrations and the nature of the injuries sustained.

You are right about the need or some organisation to pick up the gauntlet and start addressing this issue head-on, and calling for a full enquiry into the policing operation. Perhaps this might occur once the Tomlinson enquiry gets fully underway, and if it gets raised in parliament. Although I shan't be holding my breath.

Oh and I wouldn't have thought your status as a health journo in any way precludes you from reporting on this.


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## editor (Apr 8, 2009)

nopassaran said:


> The tactics employed were oppressive to say the least and had all the hallmarks of a policy aimed at discouraging people from participating in public protests for fear of becoming the victim of police aggression. I think in many respects we are getting a real taste of what it is like to live in a police state.


It know it sounds a bit ridiculous, but the sense of freedom that LDR and I experienced when we sidestepped the rampaging riot goons and escaped the cordon was almost _exhilarating. _

The hysterical media campaign had no doubt done an effective job of dissuading people from attending, so much so that the presumption was that only violent anarchists hell bent on rampant destruction would show up.

But that didn't happen and the police tactics were woefully inappropriate.


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## maomao (Apr 8, 2009)

editor said:


> That didn't happen and the police tactics were woefully inappropriate.



Exactly and if anything the prosecution of this officer will be a diversion from that.


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## nopassaran (Apr 8, 2009)

There is of course a flipside to this, namely that by the Police behaving in such a confrontational and aggressive manner, this will only serve to fuel people's animosity towards them, and make future protests potentially more difficult to police; due to increased crowd hostility leading to widespread acts of civil disobedience.


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## xes (Apr 8, 2009)

nopassaran said:


> There is of course a flipside to this, namely that by the Police behaving in such a confrontational and aggressive manner, this will only serve to fuel people's animosity towards them, and make future protests potentially more difficult to police; due to increased crowd hostility leading to widespread acts of civil disobedience.



and playing right along with their plans for a "summer of rage" which will be used to force in lots of nice new terrorism/anti protester laws. And possibly even a military police state if things get too bad.


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## Paulie Tandoori (Apr 8, 2009)

maomao said:


> Exactly and if anything the prosecution of this officer will be a diversion from that.


I'm not so sure - there have been a few calls that i have heard now for proper investigation into police tactics, in particular the kettle of massed demonstrators leading to greater potential for violence rather than less as well as the H&S aspects and broader HR issues also.


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## xes (Apr 8, 2009)

Paulie Tandoori said:


> I'm not so sure - there have been a few calls that i have heard now for proper investigation into police tactics, in particular the kettle of massed demonstrators leading to greater potential for violence rather than less as well as the H&S aspects and broader HR issues also.



well, I guess ina few weeks/months well know. But I'm not holding my breath. i doubt that anyone will be charged, an innocent mans name will be dragged through the mud to defend the police and to cover their arses. And nothing of note will come of it, appart from a growing feeling of dissent towards the police. Leading to clashes at protests.


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## nopassaran (Apr 8, 2009)

xes said:


> and playing right along with their plans for a "summer of rage" which will be used to force in lots of nice new terrorism/anti protester laws. And possibly even a military police state if things get too bad.



Tbh I don't see that the Police require any further legislation with which to restrict the right of protest, the powers are already there should they wish to use them, namely in the form of 1986 Public Order Act.


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## nick h. (Apr 8, 2009)

nopassaran said:


> the indiscriminate violence meted out by the Police was not just confined solely to the climate camp.



Agree 100%, I'm only focusing on this particular event because the video of it is such good evidence that it might be a reasonable basis for a formal complaint. Have been trying to get hold of a higher res version without edits so that the police can't claim that protester violence was cut. 



nopassaran said:


> Oh and I wouldn't have thought your status as a health journo in any way precludes you from reporting on this.



No editor will buy a piece from me unless I get something unique, which is unlikely as I have no relationships with sources. So I would have to go it alone   with a blog, which I could very well screw up because I don't know the law or the complaints procedures or anything about police training. Even if I don't mess it up it will be perceived as biased activism rather than impartial journalism and completely ignored. So is there any point? And my health is so patchy at the moment that my writing is hardly ever up to standard.


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## Paulie Tandoori (Apr 8, 2009)

xes said:


> well, I guess ina few weeks/months well know. But I'm not holding my breath. i doubt that anyone will be charged, an innocent mans name will be dragged through the mud to defend the police and to cover their arses. And nothing of note will come of it, appart from a growing feeling of dissent towards the police. Leading to clashes at protests.


The difference is that at this moment in time, the police tactics are coming under scrutiny in a way that hasn't happened at all in recent years. Many people have been predicting such an unfortunate outcome, both because of the indiscriminate approach of the police and because of the propaganda machine that fuels this approach. However, the prior case of Blair Peach would tend to support your pessimistic views perhaps.....


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## Barking_Mad (Apr 8, 2009)

I think any trial will face the issue of not just the police person involved being in the dock, but the way the Met and police as a whole treat people period. They won't want to lose the power to act in this fashion, nor will the government want them to. What message would it send to officers that using a baton or pushing someone can land them a jail sentence?

I'm not condoning it, but there will be a huge issue at stake here. Riot police who daren't hit anyone for fear of killing them? The state won't accept that.


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## nick h. (Apr 8, 2009)

Paulie Tandoori said:


> The difference is that at this moment in time, the police tactics are coming under scrutiny in a way that hasn't happened at all in recent years.


 But all this scrutiny will inevitably be focused on Ian Tomlinson's push and we'll miss the chance to investigate the many officers who did much worse things. They're damn lucky they didn't clobber anyone with a heart condition.


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## xes (Apr 8, 2009)

nick h. said:


> But all this scrutiny will inevitably be focused on Ian Tomlinson's push and we'll miss the chance to investigate the many officers who did much worse things. They're damn lucky they didn't clobber anyone* else* with a heart condition.



I've edited that for you   

And I agree, all it takes is for someone to get caught up in the wrong place at the wrong time, and it's *kosh* have that. It could be anyone, and next time it might be. The police don't know who has any condition, nor do they give a fuck, if you;re in the way, then you're getting some aggro. I hope that all the police who acted like animals are prossecuted, but that's never going to happen, they'd need to nick pretty much all of them.


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## Paulie Tandoori (Apr 8, 2009)

nick h. said:


> But all this scrutiny will inevitably be focused on Ian Tomlinson's push and we'll miss the chance to investigate the many officers who did much worse things. They're damn lucky they didn't clobber anyone with a heart condition.


Execpt that they haven't simply focussed on his death (although this is clearly important) - both last night on Newsnight and this morning on R4, there were calls for wider investigations into police tactics more generally.


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## nopassaran (Apr 8, 2009)

Barking_Mad said:


> I think any trial will face the issue of not just the police person involved being in the dock, but the way the Met and police as a whole treat people period. They won't want to lose the power to act in this fashion, nor will the government want them to. What message would it send to officers that using a baton or pushing someone can land them a jail sentence?
> 
> I'm not condoning it, but there will be a huge issue at stake here. Riot police who daren't hit anyone for fear of killing them? The state won't accept that.



But that's eaxctly it. Hopefully it will put the issue of public order policing in the spotlight, thereby raising public awareness of the brutal and oppressive practices involved, and hopefully encourage more people to question it.


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## nick h. (Apr 8, 2009)

Paulie Tandoori said:


> Execpt that they haven't simply focussed on his death (although this is clearly important) - both last night on Newsnight and this morning on R4, there were calls for wider investigations into police tactics more generally.



I hope they DO something rather than just talk about it. The climate camp organisers haven't had ONE press enquiry about this video . 

Here's another one of the same event:


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## winjer (Apr 8, 2009)

nick h. said:


> Does anybody know whether any protesters are making complaints?


Yes protesters will be making complaints about this (some have already), other incidents at climate camp, elsewhere and at the raids on the 2nd.


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## nick h. (Apr 8, 2009)

Can you point me towards any sources for that?


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## winjer (Apr 8, 2009)

LDMG and Climate Camp Legal Team.

Also:
http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2009/04/426980.html
http://www.indymedia.org.uk/images/2009/04/426962.jpg


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## winjer (Apr 8, 2009)

_A spokesman for the Met Police said the policing operation was “large and complex” and officers “worked tirelessly” to ensure public safety. _
http://www.thisislocallondon.co.uk/...laint_against_police_handling_of_G20_protest/


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## moon23 (Apr 8, 2009)

This can only be seen by people with intelligence as resulting directly from the current police tactics for policing protests. The politicians are also to blame for promoting a draft of legislation such as the CJA and anti-terror legislation that has lead to further criminalisation of protestors.

The reason this police officer hit and shoved this man (aside from being violent thug) is that he was ordered to contain protestors in kettles rather than allow them the freedom to express their dissent. 

This is a corporate manslaughter.


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## TopCat (Apr 8, 2009)

Murder more like.


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## OneStrike (Apr 8, 2009)

On ITN news that is still on now they interviewed a lady who works in a role in some sort of police authority, i am afraid that i missed her exact title, maybe someone else saw it and can help me out?

  She appeared very critical of Kettling to me and conceeded that the whole police tactic on the day was to show people that if you come to protest in London, this is what you get, so don't try to protest here in the future.


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## shaman75 (Apr 8, 2009)

Smurker said:


> On ITN news that is still on now they interviewed a lady who works in a role in some sort of police authority, i am afraid that i missed her exact title, maybe someone else saw it and can help me out?
> 
> She appeared very critical of Kettling to me and conceeded that the whole police tactic on the day was to show people that if you come to protest in London, this is what you get, so don't try to protest here in the future.



I saw someone on c4 news yesterday.  she was a member of the metropolitan police authority.

I imagine it was this woman, Jenny Jones http://www.greenparty.org.uk/mediacentre/releases/2009-04-03-jenny.html

http://www.mpa.gov.uk/about/people/members/02jones/


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## xes (Apr 8, 2009)

Smurker said:


> On ITN news that is still on now they interviewed a lady who works in a role in some sort of police authority, i am afraid that i missed her exact title, maybe someone else saw it and can help me out?
> 
> She appeared very critical of Kettling to me and conceeded that the whole police tactic on the day was to show people that if you come to protest in London, this is what you get, so don't try to protest here in the future.


which is probably why they are the ones who predicted a summer of rage. Because they are the ones who are going to kick it off. We'll see after the next few protests what their tactics will be. And what the answer to that will be.


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## OneStrike (Apr 8, 2009)

shaman75 said:


> I saw someone on c4 news yesterday.  she was a member of the metropolitan police authority.
> 
> I imagine it was this woman, Jenny Jones http://www.greenparty.org.uk/mediacentre/releases/2009-04-03-jenny.html
> 
> http://www.mpa.gov.uk/about/people/members/02jones/






Yea, that's the one, cheers Shaman

  It's good to hear people with a bit of influence questioning the police tactics.


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## nick h. (Apr 8, 2009)

Jenny Jones was on Newsnight last night.  I recorded it - she said: 

"kettling...is reaching a point where it becomes a very violent thing to do...you're beginning to punish the protesters and possibly innocent people..they did it on Wednesday before there had been any problems at all and you could start to argue it creates problems of its own...people who are crammed in like that start to get panicky and then they act differently. The Met has to question its tactics because kettling has reached the point where it's not useful any more. The met used to rush in and take troublemakers out of the crowd..I think that was very effective and the crowd would have supported that..but treating everybody as guilty is not the way forward. I've had several people say to me they wouldn't ever go to demonstrations again. The police are stopping peaceful protest and that is clearly against the law. I asked a senior police officer last Thursday if he thought the Police had acted appropriately and he said the use of force was completely appropriate and the Police had behaved professionally. Its clear that they did not and there are elements within the Met now who plainly enjoy the violence that they can just perform on the streets of London. 

Gavin Esler [going pink]:  "but..um.. er...I mean...that is presumably quite unfair...the police want to protect themselves too...going in to get out troublemakers isn't as easy as you made it seem...it's actually quite a risky thing for the Police and could provoke more violence". 

She replies "I do think the Police are behaving unlawfully here and I have written to the Commissioner."

When have we ever had a politician with the balls to say that? She's got my vote.


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## OneStrike (Apr 8, 2009)

Fair play to her, gonna do a bit of googling about her see if she has a track record of speaking sense!


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## netbob (Apr 8, 2009)

Anyone can make a complaint to the IPCC here


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## kenny g (Apr 8, 2009)

looking at the MPA website it looks like anyone can raise a question to a meeting as long as they have put it in writing ten days prior.


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## winjer (Apr 8, 2009)

nick h. said:


> When have we ever had a politician with the balls to say that? She's got my vote.


She's quite capable of being as slimy as any other, I rememberr her being deeply supportive of Ian Blair and his brave, brave boys for shooting a suicide bomber, when they still thought they might have done.


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## SpookyFrank (Apr 9, 2009)

winjer said:


> She's quite capable of being as slimy as any other, I rememberr her being deeply supportive of Ian Blair and his brave, brave boys for shooting a suicide bomber, when they still thought they might have done.



I'm inclined to agree, if only based on this:



> ...you're beginning to punish the protesters and possibly innocent people...



Quite a strong implication in there I feel. 'Protestors' and 'innocent people' are not mutually exclusive demographics.


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## il_bastardo (Apr 15, 2009)

winjer said:


> _A spokesman for the Met Police said the policing operation was “large and complex” and officers “worked tirelessly” to ensure public safety. _



another example of the police working tirelessly to ensure public safety.......

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/video/2009/apr/15/g20-protest-police-dog-bite


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