# Jobcentres tricking people off benefits



## minxcariad (Apr 1, 2011)

OMG - has anyone else seen this, or experienced it? 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/...fit-sanctions?commentpage=2#start-of-comments


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## RaverDrew (Apr 1, 2011)

Makes me fucking mad, I was sanctioned twice (once just before Christmas) for applying for the wrong type of job ie. one that didn't match the exact job title on my jobseekers agreement. 

The amount of grief and stress they put me through over this seriously damaged my mental and physical health. 

Knew they must have been on some kind of incentive to cut people off for bullshit reasons and nice to have it confirmed.

I'll be printing some copies to take with me next time I go to the JobCentre. I'll flypost them in and around the building so that people realise what they're up against.

I really don't know how these people sleep at night. They have no fucking morals, but no doubt the DWP employees who post on here will be along at some point to try and defend them. 

BIG respect for the whistleblower however.


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## quimcunx (Apr 1, 2011)

There have been 2 or 3 threads on here recently from people who have been 'sanctioned'.


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## Garek (Apr 1, 2011)

minxcariad said:


> OMG - has anyone else seen this, or experienced it?
> 
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/...fit-sanctions?commentpage=2#start-of-comments


 
Yep  Been sanctioned for failing to properly write out forms despite repeated attempts to inform them of dyslexia. I wrote down all my job searches and stuff I had done on the computer. I put down all the information that the form was asking. I printed it off and was told it was unacceptable. It didn't matter I had answered all the questions. The answers had to be written on the form I was given. They said if I really had dyslexia I should be give them a lter proving it. I am not sure people realise how hard it is to go through all that (getting the lett I mean). 

They are fucking cunts that bastards at the JC. Nearly every time I have been there there have been a core group standing aroung just chatting and gossiping whilst people sit there for hours waiting there turn. The JC is an excercise in removing all human dignity. Cunts.


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## RaverDrew (Apr 1, 2011)

Garek said:


> They are fucking cunts that bastards at the JC. Nearly every time I have been there there have been a core group standing aroung just chatting and gossiping whilst people sit there for hours waiting there turn. The JC is an excercise in removing all human dignity. Cunts.


 
THIS.


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## Garek (Apr 1, 2011)

In fact think some more there are only two real ways to get ahead at the JC.

1. Be proper sharp. Learn the system back to front. Know every con and every trick. Be a shark.

OR

2. Be meek as a fucking lamb. Have no pride. Just nod and smile. Say yes sir, say no sir, say three bags fucking full sir.


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## RaverDrew (Apr 1, 2011)

Neither approach works when they have sanction quotas and targets to meet.


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## Garek (Apr 1, 2011)

RaverDrew said:


> Neither approach works when they have sanction quotas and targets to meet.


 
True. But you stand a better chance if you either going in there either expecting confontation or just doing whatever is they tell you. Because they will make up the numbers on those quota by going for anyone who happens to make an innocent mistake and foolishly thought that the JC was there to help. They'll take the easy pickings.


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## ymu (Apr 1, 2011)

It's been bad for a while, but the CAB caseload _doubling_ in a year?

There must be some DA to be done around this. Small claims court for monies owed? Cheap and no lawyer needed.

There's a few magistrates taking direct action themselves over court closures ... would be a neat hook-up at both economic ends of the pissed off spectrum.


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## Divisive Cotton (Apr 1, 2011)

That's a fucking disturbing article


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## ymu (Apr 1, 2011)

RaverDrew said:


> Makes me fucking mad, I was sanctioned twice (once just before Christmas) for applying for the wrong type of job ie. one that didn't match the exact job title on my jobseekers agreement.
> 
> The amount of grief and stress they put me through over this seriously damaged my mental and physical health.
> 
> ...


 
PM me with some means I can get some money for the printing costs to you.


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## RaverDrew (Apr 1, 2011)

Fuck it, I'm willing to stand outside the jobcentre for a fortnight and hand a copy out to every person who walks in.


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## Blagsta (Apr 1, 2011)

It's been happening for a while now.  Clients I work with (homeless drug users) are being told they are well enough to work (despite having DVTs, depression, anxiety, HIV, Hep C, TB etc) and being taken off ESA and put on JSA. When they fail to jump through all the hoops of JSA, they get sanctioned for 3 months.  We help them appeal, which they usually win, then get a massive backpayment and relapse on the money.


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## Garek (Apr 1, 2011)

Blagsta said:


> It's been happening for a while now.  Clients I work with (homeless drug users) are being told they are well enough to work (despite having DVTs, depression, anxiety, HIV, Hep C, TB etc) and being taken off ESA and put on JSA. When they fail to jump through all the hoops of JSA, they get sanctioned for 3 months.  We help them appeal, which they usually win, then get a massive backpayment and relapse on the money.


 
That's terrible


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## ymu (Apr 1, 2011)

Sounds like the kind of thing Phil Shiner might be interested in class-actioning.

http://www.publicinterestlawyers.co.uk/aboutus.php


Any of the potential actioners on the thread fancy getting a working group together and making an approach. I know from personal experience that if he finds a case he wants to take forward, it's very, very difficult to stop him. On the flip side, if he thinks it won't work, he cannot be persuaded.

Get writing?


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## Part 2 (Apr 1, 2011)

Divisive Cotton said:


> That's a fucking disturbing article


 
It is. I've seen this more an more over the past 9 months or so with the kids we work with, often those with learning difficulties who struggle to manage a benefits claim anyway. Same as Blagsta, all go to appeal and get the money in the end but the disruption in their lives in the meantime is completely detrimental in terms of their likeleyhood of finding work.


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## ymu (Apr 1, 2011)

My partner is from South London, and grew up with a lot of troubled black youth. He says they're hard as nails and scary as fuck when they're on the street, but if they have to open a bank account or fill in a form at the Post Office, they go to pieces. It's not illiteracy, just utter fear of a world they know nothing about.

Expect teenage stabbings and gun crime to soar. The older ones will have many fewer ways out now.


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## toblerone3 (Apr 1, 2011)

If I end up going back to the JC after my current stint at A4E I'll certainly be printing off that article and putting it under the nose of the adviser at the very first meeting.


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## RaverDrew (Apr 1, 2011)

I'm thinking about some sort of organised campaign where claimants can be made aware of they are up against. 

Leafleting and/or flyposting outside and around the jobcentres etc. 

Important that claimants know their rights and how to oppose these snide underhand tactics. 

I've witnessed 1st hand claimants being sanctioned and then dissuaded from making an appeal, or pressured and rushed into making a sub-standard, on-the-spot appeal under the fear of having any potential payments delayed if they don't.


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## Voley (Apr 2, 2011)

Oh lovely. I have all this to look forward imminently. Been told my current job's going to last till May (which is a month more than expected tbf) but I reckon I'll be sampling the joys of the JobCentre soonish. Cheers for the heads up with posting the link, minxcariad. It'll pay to cross my T's and dot my I's even more than usual when signing.


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## Plumdaff (Apr 2, 2011)

My other half experienced a little of this but "fortunately" due to him being entitled to nothing after six months because I'm in work they've calmed down now he doesn't cost anything. Working in mental health, I'm hearing more and more stories of vulnerable people being "sanctioned" and left destitute due to tiny small print and often deviousness on the part of the Job Centre. Often they win on appeal but their mental health and dignity has already taken the toll. It's  happening at a time when mental health services and support are themselves being cut. Inhumane bullshit.


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## Ground Elder (Apr 2, 2011)

There's this to look forward to as well - Mandatory Work Activity Scheme


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## toblerone3 (Apr 2, 2011)

Is the information about how many people  have been sanctioned from each particular Job centre publicly available. If not. Why not? 

Seems like there should be a watchdog organisation set up on job centres to counter these dreadful targets. Could it be done. Might be a lot of work though.   Imagine the conversation yes I've set a big society job watching the way that you guys operate.


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## stuff_it (Apr 2, 2011)

They've been doing it for years though, an old friend with very very severe schizophrenia and drug issues got actually kicked out of his council house because the DSS (as it was back then) stopped his benefits (he clearly was 'green carded') and his rent, forgot to reinstate the rent for 6 months, and then evicted him. He went on another massive bender and was dead within two years.


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## Ground Elder (Apr 2, 2011)

Unlawful Sanctions looks like it could be a useful resource, although it would be more use if more than half of their links went anywhere


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## toblerone3 (Apr 2, 2011)

Ground Elder said:


> Unlawful Sanctions looks like a useful resource.



Great link. Ground Elder


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## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Apr 2, 2011)

Wow. Just wow.


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## Dhimmi (Apr 2, 2011)

Garek said:


> In fact think some more there are only two real ways to get ahead at the JC.
> 
> 1. Be proper sharp. Learn the system back to front. Know every con and every trick. Be a shark.
> 
> ...


 

OR

3. Fuck off and get work.


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## pengaleng (Apr 2, 2011)

Dhimmi said:


> OR
> 
> 3. Fuck off and get work.


 

*slow clap*


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## ymu (Apr 2, 2011)

That's the problem though, isn't it. Those who are already the best off - the savvy, the educated, the articulate, the well-informed - are unlikely to be targeted for confusing written forms or late posting of application forms, or just downright lying to get a bonus mark.

And it's because there is no budget allocated for training anyone off benefits any more.

It's sick. Unbelievably sick. Couldn't stop crying for a while after I read it.

Cunts.


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## Glitter (Apr 2, 2011)

I work in a jobcentre and it's true, there are a couple of utter cunts like that there. 

However most of us are decent human beings who want to do the best we can to help people and fuck any targets around it. 

Don't tar us all with the same brush please.


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## Cloo (Apr 2, 2011)

Wow... define 'cuntyness'.


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## Captain Hurrah (Apr 2, 2011)

Some nasty shit.


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## Steel Icarus (Apr 2, 2011)

Blagsta said:


> It's been happening for a while now.  Clients I work with (homeless drug users) are being told they are well enough to work (despite having DVTs, depression, anxiety, HIV, Hep C, TB etc) and being taken off ESA and put on JSA. When they fail to jump through all the hoops of JSA, they get sanctioned for 3 months.  We help them appeal, which they usually win, then get a massive backpayment and relapse on the money.



And you could be a grieving relative, tell this story to Duncan Smith and he'd said it's unfortunate, but individual cases etc, and it proves these people shouldn't be given money etc, and his pulse would never go over 85.


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## Looby (Apr 2, 2011)

Glitter said:


> I work in a jobcentre and it's true, there are a couple of utter cunts like that there.
> 
> However most of us are decent human beings who want to do the best we can to help people and fuck any targets around it.
> 
> Don't tar us all with the same brush please.


 
I was about to post similar Glitter. I know many trade unionists in the DWP and they will be as appalled as everyone about these practices.

I will say that whilst I have no doubt this is going on and there will always be cunty staff who are only too happy to sanction etc I'm sure they are in the minority.

Many more are under massive pressure from management, being bullied and harassed for not meeting targets and being treated really fucking badly themselves.

I know from my own job that discretion and judgment is being replaced by set processes and you have to justify everything you do that deviates from the standard process.

Please direct your justifiable anger at senior management not individual  advisors in jobcentres.


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## Crispy (Apr 2, 2011)

Christ this makes me angry.


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## stuff_it (Apr 2, 2011)

Glitter said:


> I work in a jobcentre and it's true, there are a couple of utter cunts like that there.
> 
> However most of us are decent human beings who want to do the best we can to help people and fuck any targets around it.
> 
> Don't tar us all with the same brush please.


 
Did they make you take the job?


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## Steel Icarus (Apr 2, 2011)

stuff_it said:


> Did they make you take the job?



Reckon that's a bit unfair. You do what you can to put steam on the table.


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## Looby (Apr 2, 2011)

stuff_it said:


> Did they make you take the job?


 
That's not really constructive is it? 

For a start most people in DWP, HMRC etc started these jobs when the organisations were very different.

I personally chose a public sector job deliberately because I wanted to do something vaguely valuable and was sick of making cash for bosses in the private sector.


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## RaverDrew (Apr 2, 2011)

"I'm only doing my job" 

Something that I've heard from the mouths of various Jobcentre staff as they fuck with peoples lives implementing pisstaking sanctions. Which of course as we all know is the same old rhetoric as used by executioners and Nazi concentration camp guards. 

You lot are so highly unionised, and are more than happy to regularly go running to the union and go out on strike when it affects the money in your pocket. Maybe try the same tactics when your bosses start "forcing you" to implement immoral policies ?



> "First they came for the communists, and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist. Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew. Then they came for me and there was no one left to speak out for me."


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## Divisive Cotton (Apr 2, 2011)

Comparing DWP workers to Nazi concentration camp guards is a bit harsh isn't it?


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## RaverDrew (Apr 2, 2011)

Not really, I'd be surprised if most of them (directly or indirectly) didn't have blood on their hands from fucking over the lives of vulnerable people.


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## Obnoxiousness (Apr 2, 2011)

Divisive Cotton said:


> Comparing DWP workers to Nazi concentration camp guards is a bit harsh isn't it?


The psychology is comparable.  Both were/are probably very nice people, who were/are encouraged to meet targets.  The end result of withholding benefits does not compare to being killed, but the comparison reflects the pressure applied from superiors.


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## Greebo (Apr 2, 2011)

Steel☼Icarus said:


> Reckon that's a bit unfair. You do what you can to put steam on the table.


 
But you've got to draw the line somewhere, or IMHO the money's not worth the loss of self-respect.  FWIW I turned down working for the local jobcentre for moral reasons.  Maybe you draw the line somewhere different, and that's for you and your conscience.

Sorry, back to the thread.  IME even back in the early 90s there were some sanction-happy claimant advisers, but now the difference is that they seem to have started outnumbering the decent ones.


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## Looby (Apr 2, 2011)

RaverDrew said:


> "I'm only doing my job"
> 
> Something that I've heard from the mouths of various Jobcentre staff as they fuck with peoples lives implementing pisstaking sanctions. Which of course as we all know is the same old rhetoric as used by executioners and Nazi concentration camp guards.
> 
> You lot are so highly unionised, and are more than happy to regularly go running to the union and go out on strike when it affects the money in your pocket. Maybe try the same tactics when your bosses start "forcing you" to implement immoral policies ?


 
Did I fucking say that?

And how the fuck do you know what I do and why? We do take action when we are being asked to do things we believe are wrong but not everyone has the strength of character/confidence to speak out. 

I haven't defended this practice, I've merely asked that you target the real villains which is the bosses.


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## RaverDrew (Apr 2, 2011)

Did I quote or name you in particular sparklefish, or is the guilt just getting to you ?


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## isvicthere? (Apr 2, 2011)

This is just sooooo wrong. Tory cunts!


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## New Deal Scanda (Apr 2, 2011)

Hello everyone. Firstly, would like to apologise for some sites being unavailable yesterday. The announcement of Work Programme contracts TRIPLED the record traffic received so far this year and yeah I didn't get the opportunity to stick the results to the tender up - will have to do it today a day late! 

Secondly, its called the "Mandatory Work Activity (MWA)" although called the Mandatory Work Activity Scheme in the regulations (its not an April Fools). Elsewhere, the Work for Your Benefit pilot scheme that was scrapped although the regulations are still active until November 2013 - although can be extended. There are plans through Regs to removed a few clauses, but it still remains "as is" - so I would like to make people aware that its a "trojan horse" awaiting to rear its ugly head. (They could have revoked it all)

Why is this relevant? Well... At current providers under FND are delegated Employment Officer status to certain staff with certain job titles. This means they can send you written notice to attend with sanctions for failure. Jobseeker Directions (JSD) must be written, however, the WfYB scheme was to give providers the ability to create verbal JSDs - thus no actual proof required (i.e. "_Called customer to attend work placement. Customer FTA. Customer didn't contact us within 48 hours specifying a reason_" => No phone call made. Person didn't contact within 48 hours as s/he had no reason to make a phone call)

Read more here: http://unlawfulsanctions.org.uk/Work-for-Your-Benefit-Workfare-Sanctions.html  As for some of the broken links... the site is pending being updated to include examples of real life sanction cases. The author of that article had requested help from Unlawful Sanction users - I am not sure if the whistle blower came from such site or elsewhere... but I hope the site was of some instrumental aspect in helping the article.

The MWA is a punishment. It is designed to stick a "boot up someones backside" if the JCP adviser believes someone is merely complying with JSA conditions but not really trying to look for work (not sure how work ethic experience is going to help that). I will post this further info soon. They quote 10,000 people a year to be placed on it but they also probably said about only that amount being sanctioned to begin with on New Deal. It is very close to accusing someone of being a benefit cheat. 

Just to end saying the Government is trying for a "Training Wage Bill" which bypasses the NMW - if it makes it to Royal Assent its likely to begin first half of 2012. This allows employers to pay low wages, major deductions or not paying staff at all. How? Pay disputes are civil (you have to sue if there is an issue). The only exception is if an employer breaks the law by not paying NMW on average (criminal act)... when this doesn't apply because of an exception; the employee on a training wage cannot contact HMRC to report the employer. So, you can expect many dirty sanction tricks to force people into very low paid work if the Training Wage Bill makes it.  As we know these "employment programmes" mean the provider is your "employer" (under Social Security law anyway)... and refusal or losing a "job" (yes you guessed it) will rise up to 3 years of sanctions (3 month, 6 month, 3 years).


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## _angel_ (Apr 2, 2011)

isvicthere? said:


> This is just sooooo wrong. Tory cunts!


 
vote labour


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## Looby (Apr 2, 2011)

RaverDrew said:


> Did I quote or name you in particular sparklefish, or is the guilt just getting to you ?


 
Not really, I don't work there.


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## New Deal Scanda (Apr 2, 2011)

Just to Add, although the Jobseekers Act 1995 was Tory... Labour has been building up the sanctions ever since. 

They created New Deal: With the associated sanctions for refusal, failure and even for not "actively participating" (which is far fetching)
They created FND: Delegating powers for providers to raise sanction doubts
They created Regs to sanction people who are late 
They created the pressures for DWP/JCP to have targets to sanction to save money on the welfare bill
They created Work for Your Benefit (workfare) - I hate the tories, but Labour would have done the pilots... I wont say too much about the tories scrapping the scheme as I know they will bring it back at some point.

I could go on... lol


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## Obnoxiousness (Apr 2, 2011)

Who is really responsible and where is their office?


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## Steel Icarus (Apr 2, 2011)

Greebo said:


> But you've got to draw the line somewhere, or IMHO the money's not worth the loss of self-respect.  FWIW I turned down working for the local jobcentre for moral reasons.  Maybe you draw the line somewhere different, and that's for you and your conscience.
> 
> Sorry, back to the thread.  IME even back in the early 90s there were some sanction-happy claimant advisers, but now the difference is that they seem to have started outnumbering the decent ones.



How do you suppose there are going to be "decent" ones at all if they take the same lofty moral stance you did?

Look, they're not the enemy. The enemy is the cunts in charge of the ideology, the drivers of it. And look! We're arguing amongst ourselves. Colin is a swan. Colin is black. All swans are black. All Colins are swans. Swans are just following orders.


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## Obnoxiousness (Apr 2, 2011)

Again, who is responsible and where is their office?


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## Steel Icarus (Apr 2, 2011)

http://www.iainduncansmith.org/text.aspx?id=6


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## RaverDrew (Apr 2, 2011)

sparklefish said:


> Not really, I don't work there.


 
Sorry, lazy assumption on my part.


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## Greebo (Apr 2, 2011)

Steel☼Icarus said:


> Look, they're not the enemy. The enemy is the cunts in charge of the ideology, the drivers of it.



Collaborators and enablers have nothing to be ashamed of?  

IMHO fair play to those who genuinely want to change the system from within, or reduce the worst bits of it.  IMHO it's too easy to persuade yourself that trying to preserve a critical mass of decent people is the reason that you continue to work where you do, doing what you do, and not take a stand as often as you maybe believe that you should.


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## Glitter (Apr 2, 2011)

stuff_it said:


> Did they make you take the job?


 
And that's relevant how?


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## claphamboy (Apr 2, 2011)

What a fucking disgrace. 

I feel sorry for anyone that has suffered as a result of this, it saddens me reading the posts here esp. from RaverDrew as he's been shafted twice, and I remember posting 'in support' when he posted about the case just before Christmas. 



isvicthere? said:


> This is just sooooo wrong. Tory cunts!



I think you mean Labour cunts. 

As the report linked in the OP, and post 51 from New Deal Scanda, explains this was introduced by the last government.


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## ViolentPanda (Apr 2, 2011)

stuff_it said:


> Did they make you take the job?


 
Of course not.

Me, I'm ambivalent about "working in a jobcentre". It's not something I could do myself, but I can understand that others might. That said, as with any job, if you've got a minority of cunts, they'll always taint the rest, and the very act of not doing anything about the cunts, of going along with the cuntishness, tarnishes everyone.

One thing I will note is that the DWP seems to have it's admin centres in areas of high unemployment - is this a deliberate move on their part, an attempt to ensure a more pliable workforce?


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## ViolentPanda (Apr 2, 2011)

RaverDrew said:


> "I'm only doing my job"
> 
> Something that I've heard from the mouths of various Jobcentre staff as they fuck with peoples lives implementing pisstaking sanctions. Which of course as we all know is the same old rhetoric as used by executioners and Nazi concentration camp guards.



Unfair, mate. Many of the folk (those that are left after several years of staffing cuts, anyway) in the JC+s actually took the jobs before all the different bits of the services (job centres, DSS office etc) all got stuck in the one building, and would have been used to VERY different work practices than what they have now.



> You lot are so highly unionised, and are more than happy to regularly go running to the union and go out on strike when it affects the money in your pocket. Maybe try the same tactics when your bosses start "forcing you" to implement immoral policies ?


 
Morally, you're absolutely right. Practically and legally, I'm not sure that industrial action over immoral policies is permissible. If we bear in mind the legal penalties for illegal industrial action too...


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## ViolentPanda (Apr 2, 2011)

claphamboy said:


> What a fucking disgrace.
> 
> I feel sorry for anyone that has suffered as a result of this, it saddens me reading the posts here esp. from RaverDrew as he's been shafted twice, and I remember posting 'in support' when he posted about the case just before Christmas.
> 
> ...


 
I think you both mean "neo-liberal cunts".


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## cypher79 (Apr 2, 2011)

Yeah lets cut off people at the bottom of the ladders benefits, that'll sort the mess out that this countries in.

Seriously tho, what the fuck do they expect these people who get their benefits cut off to live on?


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## ViolentPanda (Apr 2, 2011)

cypher79 said:


> Yeah lets cut off people at the bottom of the ladders benefits, that'll sort the mess out that this countries in.
> 
> Seriously tho, what the fuck do they expect these people who get their benefits cut off to live on?


 
If I were cynical, not to mention a conspiracy theorist, I'd be wondering why current prisons policy is aiming toward a renewed privatisation policy, and then asking myself whether (effectively) criminalising sanctioned benefits claimants (because be fair, the only way you're going to get money is by breaking the law) was related to that, or whether it was just a BIG coincidence.


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## Glitter (Apr 2, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> Of course not.
> 
> Me, I'm ambivalent about "working in a jobcentre". It's not something I could do myself, but I can understand that others might. That said, as with any job, if you've got a minority of cunts, they'll always taint the rest, and the very act of not doing anything about the cunts, of going along with the cuntishness, tarnishes everyone.
> 
> One thing I will note is that the DWP seems to have it's admin centres in areas of high unemployment - is this a deliberate move on their part, an attempt to ensure a more pliable workforce?


 
The point I was originally trying to make is that just because there's a bollocks 'target' for something doesn't mean everyone adheres to it. 

I see my job as a way of helping people and I'm not about to turn into a cunt just because someone targets it. If that gets me a bollocking so be it. Fortunately most of my colleagues see it the same way.


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## ViolentPanda (Apr 2, 2011)

Glitter said:


> The point I was originally trying to make is that just because there's a bollocks 'target' for something doesn't mean everyone adheres to it.
> 
> I see my job as a way of helping people and I'm not about to turn into a cunt just because someone targets it. If that gets me a bollocking so be it. Fortunately most of my colleagues see it the same way.



I'm sure that there are people who subvert targets etc. There usually are people "fighting from the inside". The problem is (in my experience, anyway) that what is a "target" at one time often becomes a regulation or rule further down the line, despite people resisting it, which then puts employees such as yourself in an invidious position: Follow the rules or get the sack (after the appropriate disciplinary measures have been observed, of course!).
There used to be a fair amount of discretion involved in the "front-line" at the job centres, now where i it? Legislated away, so that if you exercise any, you're pulled up in front of some chinless twat with an MBA, no experience at the coal-face and no interpersonal skills, and disciplined. Your room to manouvre is being eroded.


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## ymu (Apr 2, 2011)

Steel☼Icarus said:


> Reckon that's a bit unfair. You do what you can to put steam on the table.


Totally agree. And you really, really don't want to have decent people avoid those jobs and leave them for the cunts to mop up. 

It's a vital role and we need to be kicking up a fuss about policies which can set targets on the number of people 'genuinely' seeking work in an economy which is short at least 6 million jobs.

If they are reducing funding to CAB and debt advisors, then we must insist that benefits advisors take on a part of this role. They should be obliged to inform everyone of what benefits they are entitled to, trained to help people fill in the forms, and earn their bonuses on the basis of an accuracy audit where depriving someone of benefits they are entitled to would be penalised as harshly as allowing overpayment.

It's a rather obvious efficiency saving, no? Perhaps those with some decency working for DWP could start up the Big Society Benefit Advisory Service and run it in their work places, in parallel with their normal jobs and take industrial action if there are sanctions for not imposing sanctions.


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## ymu (Apr 2, 2011)

Greebo said:


> But you've got to draw the line somewhere, or IMHO the money's not worth the loss of self-respect.  FWIW I turned down working for the local jobcentre for moral reasons.  Maybe you draw the line somewhere different, and that's for you and your conscience.
> 
> Sorry, back to the thread.  IME even back in the early 90s there were some sanction-happy claimant advisers, but now the difference is that they seem to have started outnumbering the decent ones.



Para 1: I turned down a job with the job centre for moral reasons

Para 2: The cunts have started outnumbering the decent ones

Spot the connection?


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## claphamboy (Apr 2, 2011)

ymu said:


> It's a vital role and we need to be kicking up a fuss about policies which can set targets on the number of people 'genuinely' seeking work in an economy which is short at least 6 million jobs.



At least 6 million jobs?


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## Looby (Apr 2, 2011)

ymu said:


> Para 1: I turned down a job with the job centre for moral reasons
> 
> Para 2: The cunts have started outnumbering the decent ones
> 
> Spot the connection?


 
Unfortunately, this is exactly what's going to happen because of the cuts. 

Committed, experienced staff will be replaced by poorly trained FTA's with no commitment or investment in their jobs.


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## ymu (Apr 2, 2011)

claphamboy said:


> At least 6 million jobs?


 
Yes.

Precise numbers are hard to find, but here's the sort of stuff I'm using (all from govt statistics unless otherwise specified):

- 2.5 million registered unemployed (1.5 million in receipt of unemployment benefit)
- 1 million self-employed or part-time workers looking for full-time employment
- 9 million economically inactive but a large and unknown proportion are seeking work (disabled, single parents, students)
- statistic abused on The Wright Stuff claiming that a survey estimated 2 million people who were out of work 'admitted' that they weren't looking for work. Their total denominator of people not looking for work was not stated, but it's 9-11 million, by my reckoning.

- 500,000 job vacancies, most of which are effectively 'floating' vacancies; the jobs will go to people already in work and their jobs will replace them in the situations vacant column. With a workforce of 32 million (10 million of whom earn less than £15k  ), 500,000 vacancies is pretty close to 'no jobs at all' for all practical purposes.


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## twentythreedom (Apr 2, 2011)

Absolutely sickening. I was sanctioned for being one minute late for signing, but generally I always arrive early, and usually have to wait around because they're running late.. 

Fuckers. More riots needed.


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## ymu (Apr 2, 2011)

Hmm. It's easy to attack claimants for all sorts of reasons, and one of them is that it's hard to unionise, with no money and no common 'workplace'.

Except that there is a common workplace. You can contact 99.9% of claimants just by leafletting outside a job centre for 2 weeks. Two or three people could cover it easily, whilst also fulfilling their job search requirements.

The National Unemployed Workers Union has been growing. Time to get some branches with 100% membership going?

You could have a Big Society Work Placement Scheme whereby members gained experience in union recruitment, leafleting the newly unemployed at the Job Centre, and trained to help members with benefit claims and debt problems.


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## ymu (Apr 2, 2011)

OK. Right. This isn't going unanswered. Plan for unionisation:

- free membership and benefits
- each branch to have access to one long battery life security chipped netbook and internet dongle with regularly monthly data access contract
- all members asked to work one day a week outside the job centre, recruiting and advising members
- advice primarily practical (form filling, translation) and via online recognised advice services
- members to take it in turns to have custody of the netbook on the proviso that it can be returned early the following morning
- establish relationships with local cafes to hold advice clinics (and boost their takings)

Drew, if this sounds doable, I can bankroll your branch set-up if you can get two more people to make it work. #1 Branch fundraises until they can bankroll #2 Branch. Then they can fundraise for their membership.

We could do with volunteers from within DWP and those with benefits advice, CAB-style or tribunal experience to come along and offer some training days, and maybe also some training-the-trainer days, so that the skills can cascade out without needing one or two people to be available. The national (internet) Forum would pool skills and provide a free resource for everyone. Then the membership can work out what they need. Collective purchasing at the local Cash'n'Carry? Cooking workshops for cheap, good food? Transport co-ops to share the costs of car ownership?

Come on, let's do it. Shouting slogans and smashing windows is fun, but the real fight back has to start now. He wants a Big Society, we'll give him a Big Society, with Big Unions and a Big Voice.


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## quimcunx (Apr 2, 2011)

Back with a vengeance, eh, ymu?   

Good to see you.


----------



## ymu (Apr 2, 2011)




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## lizzieloo (Apr 2, 2011)

Steel☼Icarus said:


> Reckon that's a bit unfair. You do what you can to put steam on the table.



Some people_ are _made to take jobs in job centres, happened to a friend of mine.


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## Obnoxiousness (Apr 2, 2011)

I would enjoy working for a booming industry like that. 

Not.


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## lizzieloo (Apr 2, 2011)

This is very, very worring for my sister in law as she has learning disabilities but still has to jump through the same hoops.

She'd be a fucking great target.


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## spawnofsatan (Apr 2, 2011)

Its worrying me too, signed on last week for the first time since 93, haven't got a clue how it all works.


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## ymu (Apr 2, 2011)

Drew

Set up a bank account for your new branch of the NUWU.

Stick the details on here.

Keep accounts and publish them here.

You'll need:

- printing
- pasting table and fold-up stools
- long battery-life netbook
- dongle and PAYG on a no-notice monthly contract

And a couple of people who want in.

Get crackin'.


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## ymu (Apr 2, 2011)

For large volume printing, you might find it cheaper to get a local printer than do it yourself. They pass on some of their volume discount on the paper.


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## tufty79 (Apr 2, 2011)

I'm in. And got anarchoprinter (kickass political printing with the environmentally-friendly-type-of-green green ink ) friends who i think'd be more than happy to help you out on this one, drew.


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## Obnoxiousness (Apr 2, 2011)

Get in touch with Panorama, I bet they'd love to put an undercover reporter in there.


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## Fedayn (Apr 2, 2011)

RaverDrew said:


> "I'm only doing my job"
> 
> Something that I've heard from the mouths of various Jobcentre staff as they fuck with peoples lives implementing pisstaking sanctions. Which of course as we all know is the same old rhetoric as used by executioners and Nazi concentration camp guards.
> 
> You lot are so highly unionised, and are more than happy to regularly go running to the union and go out on strike when it affects the money in your pocket. Maybe try the same tactics when your bosses start "forcing you" to implement immoral policies ?


 
Christ i'm tired, been a busy old day, shot a couple of Jews trying to escape, set the dogs on a few gypsies and tortured a few mental health inmates..... Life is tiring as a concentration camp guard.... Oh well, better get on with gassing a few jews and commies..... Bit of luck throw a few cripples in there too......


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## ymu (Apr 2, 2011)

Co-Op bank account, or one with a local credit union, or one of the few remaining mutuals, of course!

If you stick the account details up here (bank account number, sort code) we can start fund-raising by asking people to donate directly into the account.

Each branch, starting with you, can use that account until they have set-up and started fund-raising successfully for themselves. Further branches can apply for funds as and when they have three volunteers signed up. They can be allowed access as and when funds allow, with volunteers encouraged to lend their own equipment to help new branches set up.

Aim: to cover 100% of job centres 100% of the time with a National Forum with Regional sub-forums to coordinate funding, training, advice, transport exchanges, collective purchasing, cooking collectives, and anything that anyone kicks off really.

Could all be coordinated via a blog linked to a forum. Suggested banner: Big Society Benefits Advisory Service (NUWU section). Formal affiliation to NUWU would be good too.

Need some volunteer press officers too. I give good press release, but I'm hopeless at networking. The Armchair Army have a few key contacts at the Virtual Gherkin (for use by the 1st Chairborne Division! ), but we could do with beefing up our, and their, contacts list, if there are any good PR types out there. This needs flooding out to local and national press, especially on slow news days. 

Broken of Britain would be another key contact, along with the TUC blog.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 2, 2011)

claphamboy said:


> At least 6 million jobs?


 
If you're going to replace multiple poorly-paying p/t jobs with "proper" f/t jobs, that's a minimum.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 2, 2011)

sparklefish said:


> Unfortunately, this is exactly what's going to happen because of the cuts.
> 
> Committed, experienced staff will be replaced by poorly trained FTA's with no commitment or investment in their jobs.


 
It's already a problem of quite long standing. Even back in my day in the Civil Service, there was the impetus to shed older staff on higher pay grades and increments in favour of younger and less-experienced (but cheaper) staff.
IIRC staff turnover in my old dept nearly doubled between 1990 and 1995 alone. Fuck knows what the Brown cull plus these cuts are going to do (although part of me cynically expects tendering of such jobs to the likes of Crapita and Shitco).


----------



## New Deal Scanda (Apr 2, 2011)

I agree, professional printing can work out much cheaper than a printer, reams of paper and ink in quantity... and looks more professional too.


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## goldenecitrone (Apr 2, 2011)

claphamboy said:


> At least 6 million jobs?



Oh no. A Dole'a'cause Denier.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 2, 2011)

ymu said:


> OK. Right. This isn't going unanswered. Plan for unionisation:
> 
> - free membership and benefits
> - each branch to have access to one long battery life security chipped netbook and internet dongle with regularly monthly data access contract
> ...


 
One problem with what I've bolded above. If you're claiming JSA they can sanction you for making yourself unavailable for work.


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## tufty79 (Apr 2, 2011)

Worth involving Disabled People Against Cuts too? (www.dpac.uk.net)


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## ViolentPanda (Apr 2, 2011)

Fedayn said:


> Christ i'm tired, been a busy old day, shot a couple of Jews trying to escape, set the dogs on a few gypsies and tortured a few mental health inmates..... Life is tiring as a concentration camp guard.... Oh well, better get on with gassing a few jews and commies..... Bit of luck throw a few cripples in there too......


 
You'll nonetheless get called before the _Kommandant_, gefreiter Fedayn. You didn't meet your target for sanctioning useless mouths off JSA.

Verdamnt dumkopf!


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## ymu (Apr 2, 2011)

Big Society Benefits, Training and Careers Advisory Service, maybe?

With good advice about FE for jobs where there is a shortage of skilled employees (which there is in my area), we can use the new tuition fees system to give people who have no real hope of a high paid job a way into one. I can spot a potential statistician a mile off, and I teach on several good, vocational, high quality degree courses that people could be recruited too, with few qualifications barriers for mature students. Great career prospects, and no need to pay off the loan unless it works out. It's win-win for those who never expected to be able to buy a house anyway. And there's heaps of wasted talent out there.

An online learning centre, with contributions from anyone who wants to develop online learning materials in basic and not so basic skills, practical, academic or vocational.

Careers advisory service primarily focused on training and education opportunities in areas where there are jobs, or new business opportunities, and providing access to the internet for self-educational purposes. Collaborations with what local libraries are left (supported by local transport networks) to maximise access. Online volunteers sought to offer advice and free training, and training the trainer training to cascade skills.

<catches breath>


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 2, 2011)

tufty79 said:


> Worth involving Disabled People Against the Cuts too? (Will put link in once i find it)


 
Why the hell not? Unemployed workers shouldn't just mean "current workers", it should also mean those of us who would be workers if we weren't disabled (by our impairments and by the fact that employers are extremely wary of employing us).


----------



## Fedayn (Apr 2, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> You'll nonetheless get called before the _Kommandant_, gefreiter Fedayn. You didn't meet your target for sanctioning useless mouths off JSA.
> 
> Verdamnt dumkopf!



Bit difficult for me to reach a JSA target given I work on Income upport mind... Oh well, back to killing a few more Jews.


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## ymu (Apr 2, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> One problem with what I've bolded above. If you're claiming JSA they can sanction you for making yourself unavailable for work.


 
Shifts would be entirely optional and over-manned for contingencies. The netbook would be available for searching for jobs and making online applications, or saving job application forms for bulk printing overnight. There would be a branch phone available for calling potential employers, and advice on how to make yourself memorable with the interviewers.


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## ymu (Apr 2, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> Why the hell not? Unemployed workers shouldn't just mean "current workers", it should also mean those of us who would be workers if we weren't disabled (by our impairments and by the fact that employers are extremely wary of employing us).


 
Yes, asbolutely. We should seek membership from anyone who is dependent on the benefits system and aim to develop the expertise to represent them professionally and for free in any dispute, as well as developing co-operatives for minimising living expenses, work with local credit unions to make more equitable loans available to those who need them, and offer real training. And all for virtually free, unlike the parasites at A4E who take millions for providing virtually nothing.


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## ViolentPanda (Apr 2, 2011)

Fedayn said:


> Bit difficult for me to reach a JSA target given I work on Income upport mind... Oh well, back to killing a few more Jews.


 
Do not give me excuses, dumkopf! 

Und remember to send half your wages to me, as usual, or I'll inform your bosses of your ancestry, and they will have you liquidated too!


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## tufty79 (Apr 2, 2011)

VP - Yup. There's those of us who can work fine, those of us who can work a bit, those of us that can't work (both temporarily and permanently) and then there's those that have been judged fit for work and put on jsa, even though it's clearly a ludicrous proposition for them... Shout out to the United Kingdom Disabled Peoples Council too (www.ukdpc.net), a fair proportion of their staff (which included me, until a recent health relapse) are disabled, working and also involved in monitoring disabled people's human rights. They/i seemed to quite enjoy a spot of righteous anger, demands for justice, and menacingly rolling/shuffling/kicking by any means necessary against the condems and their current fuckeryings  sorry for edit, phone swallowed half my post!


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## ymu (Apr 2, 2011)

The fund-raising, recruitment and advice clinics would be run more like a social centre where anyone could drop in at any time and hang around to help out. One person would take charge of the netbook and dongle at an agreed handover time, and other equipment similarly looked after by the membership in rotation. All coordinated via the online forum, which everyone has access to at the 'office', either outside the local Job Centre or at a nearby host cafe or pub.

Anarchy in action.


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## goldenecitrone (Apr 2, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> Do not give me excuses, dumkopf!
> 
> Und remember to send half your wages to me, as usual, or I'll inform your bosses of your ancestry, and they will have you liquidated too!



A self-hating bluenose? I knew it.


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## ymu (Apr 2, 2011)

Should we get tweeting? I can send this link out on Twitter and get a parallel conversation going there for those who don't want to register and participate here?


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## ymu (Apr 2, 2011)

Facebook too, if there's anyone who indulges the evil empire.

Someone say yes and I'll tweet and publish what I tweeted here, so a Facebook person can get it started.


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## tufty79 (Apr 2, 2011)

I'm happy to spend half my last quid in an internet shop setting up some facecrack stuff, if you can give me a half hour slot? Can type and copypasta like a demon.


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## ymu (Apr 2, 2011)

We should have a low-paid and tax-credit dependent sub-section too. Many of the same issues and needs.


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## ymu (Apr 2, 2011)

Launch procedure initiated.



> ANNOUNCEMENT: Big Society Benefits & Careers Advisory Service & NUWU recruitment drive: http://is.gd/wWJ0RG #m26 #march26 #ukuncut plsRT



Handing over to Agent tufty.


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## ymu (Apr 2, 2011)

And pensioners too, of course.


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## ymu (Apr 2, 2011)

Bad link - argh


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## ymu (Apr 2, 2011)

Shit.

Need this thread moved to the Politics forum or non-members can't access it.

Needs a redirect from this URL, ideally, too - but can retweet instead.

Am reporting this post so a mod sees it.


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## twentythreedom (Apr 2, 2011)

ymu said:


> OK. Right. This isn't going unanswered. Plan for unionisation:
> 
> - free membership and benefits
> - each branch to have access to one long battery life security chipped netbook and internet dongle with regularly monthly data access contract
> ...


 
Count me in. Barnet is ready.


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## tufty79 (Apr 2, 2011)

Right. Thanks for giving me a reason to shuffle out the front door again  SEE YOU ON THE INTERNETS COMPUTERSHOP FRONTLINE IN FIVE (Don't worry, i'll try be a srs cat on fb with this!)


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## ymu (Apr 2, 2011)

Fuck it, why do we even need to set up a separate forum? If editor doesn't mind, we could use a sub-forum of Urban. It would be a great way to boost membership with some decent sorts, too.


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## tufty79 (Apr 2, 2011)

http://www.facebook.com/home.php?sk=group_207551415940301#!/home.php?sk=group_207551415940301 set up..


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## tufty79 (Apr 2, 2011)

YMU, is it alright if i copy/paste your suggestions onto it? (and anyone else's if they want?)


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## ymu (Apr 2, 2011)




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## ymu (Apr 2, 2011)

tufty79 said:


> YMU, is it alright if i copy/paste your suggestions onto it? (and anyone else's if they want?)


 
Yes! Everyone's! I think each branch should develop their own practices, as formally or informally as they like. They can each have a subforum in the National Forum we're going to ask Urban to host and use it to run their affairs democratically and by consensus.

Anyone can add anything. The best ideas will get adopted and copied. And it can't really be sabotaged because no one is in charge. If a majority of the membership want an annually elected branch treasurer, then annual elections can be held. If they want them appointed and removed by common consensus, they can do that instead. Depends on what works in each local circumstance.

Alliances with small local businesses will be good too. To get union-style perks for their members, collaborate on community development work (such as small shop late night opening and shopping transport networks), And with businesses that can offer proper apprenticeships with real job prospects afterwards. 

We're all in this together.


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## ymu (Apr 2, 2011)

Drew, you're the de facto National Treasurer, unless you want someone else to open up the account instead?

Each branch will need its own account, also published openly for donations to be sent directly too.

All transactions and annual accounts to be published in real time on the forums. Audit by membership.

Branches to be eligible for funds from the national account for start-up equipment and costs. Phone and dongle contracts to be underwritten by national funds, with emergency funds payable on application to the National Forum.

Ooh, I feel all business-like. I'd better go and have a lie-down.


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## ymu (Apr 2, 2011)

Should probably be an internet bank account in all cases. I think the Co-Op internet bank is Smile?

Open the account in the name of the Big Society Benefits & Careers Advisory Service?


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## tufty79 (Apr 2, 2011)

right, done as much as i can afford for this eve, and got a friend seeing if they can fix laptops at home tonight.
laters


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## tufty79 (Apr 2, 2011)

Oh and if anyone would like to be an admin or has any suggestions, ideas or recommendations about the fb side of it all, please shout me or drew


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## Treacle Toes (Apr 2, 2011)

Divisive Cotton said:


> Comparing DWP workers to Nazi concentration camp guards is a bit harsh isn't it?


 
Of course it is.


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## tufty79 (Apr 2, 2011)

Can someone who isn't me give bluestreak a nudge towards this thread, please? I think he's been eulogising about this sort of thing for a while, and might have some time on his hands when he comes back to london...


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## ymu (Apr 2, 2011)

Can we have a volunteer National Press Officer, please?


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## tufty79 (Apr 2, 2011)

If we've not got one here, i think my old comms colleague might be up for it. Also know someone who provides citizen journalism training in london  oh, got a few links to self advocacy classes/groups as well....    right, i think i should probably put the coffee down for a bit


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## ymu (Apr 2, 2011)

Aces!

Citizen journalism and community film-making would be very powerful. You can do it with a £30 mobile and a cheap computer these days.

We need services for, but not divisions between, unemployed, low-paid, part-time, zero-hours, benefit or tax-credit dependent, in education or training, or struggling to afford childcare.

Look to work with a struggling local cafe or pub or business with spare space to set up a social and resource centre, with creche and community union tea-shop and/or subsidised prices supported by donations from the better off and internet-based fund-raising.

Cost of setting up a new branch is £250-£500 depending on whether they need to purchase basic kitchen equipment or not, with ongoing costs of around £30/month for phone and internet. National fund-raising should be enough to cover that for every branch. Membership is free and no member is expected to cobtribute financially, although all are encouraged to contribute their time.


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## tufty79 (Apr 2, 2011)

Laptop fixer's en route  someone's asked for a clear statement of belief and intent - do we have one?  (also i don't appear to be able to ok requests to join from my phone, apologies for delays etc. Definitely need an admin who's not phone access based! might be worth making it a community page or something instead or as well as?)


----------



## ymu (Apr 2, 2011)

I'll volunteer to be the NUWU and union coordinator, including with the TUC and other unions. Technically, I am unemployed at the moment, although I expect to be self-employed shortly. 



tufty79 said:


> Can someone who isn't me give bluestreak a nudge towards this thread, please? I think he's been eulogising about this sort of thing for a while, and might have some time on his hands when he comes back to london...


 
Yes please! Bluey, we need you.



tufty79 said:


> Laptop fixer's en route  someone's asked for a clear statement of belief and intent - do we have one?  (also i don't appear to be able to ok requests to join from my phone, apologies for delays etc. Definitely need an admin who's not phone access based! might be worth making it a community page or something instead or as well as?)



I think this thread stands as a statement of intent. Anyone can add to it, and it is up to local members to shape their local branches.

Direct democracy. 

As for beliefs, I would propose this:



> There are several elements of the New Deal that are not well understood by today's politicians. Here’s just three of them:
> 
> 1.	The New Deal introduced unionization. Because an economy cannot thrive (internally, at least) if its workers do not earn enough to buy the goods that they make.  It is said that when Henry Ford was asked why he didn’t use more robots, he replied: “Robots don’t buy cars.” Unionization and collective bargaining were, and are, fundamental elements in the structure of a more stable capitalism.
> 
> ...


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## tufty79 (Apr 2, 2011)

Excellent. Thank you. And sorry for getting a bit hijacky with the fb side of it, i just was at a severe loose end and also a bit galvanised by this thread  Is this now in a publically viewable forum?


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## ymu (Apr 2, 2011)

No, no. Do what you want on facebook. It's all good. Excellent, in fact. 

Potential membership of 25 million. Best get cracking.


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## yardbird (Apr 3, 2011)

I find it difficult to concentrate for long, so will try and read this thread all the way through tomorrow.
I would be more than willing to sit outside the jobcentre in my wheelchair handing out info leaflets.
To be honest I would like to hand out leaflets outside ATOS, who have the same agenda.

Tufty I hope you can get the laptop sorted


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## tufty79 (Apr 3, 2011)

ta yardie, and ta again. Good to see you on the thread. Laptop's doing recovery type things as i text  if it's not fixed tonight, it's getting worked on over the next couple of days (cheers, tech support) - will make sure she lives! And yes, i'm all against ATOS too


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## tar1984 (Apr 3, 2011)

Get a job you wasters 


Only kidding this is pretty cool I hope you have a lot of success, I have just secured part-time work it was the best I could do looking for full-time.


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## treelover (Apr 3, 2011)

Shouldn't this thread be in politics where it will get more exposure?, the revelations in the G are obscene but they were also happening under NL, however, i do think that the now impossible levels of harrasment and welfare cuts will inevitably lead to new organisations being set up to support people and to challenge the new regime, but it won't be easy. I have said before on here, i used my own money to set up a local and national group aginst the initial welfare cuts, we got no interest from the unions, the churches, the left, it is maybe different now, maybe it needed a critical mass as it were before it really entered decent society's awareness, I do hope so...


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## ymu (Apr 3, 2011)

Membership's open to anyone on low pay tar - hell, it's open to anyone at all. Just needs some people to be able to give their time and others to give their money and we're sorted.


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## tufty79 (Apr 3, 2011)

a very off topic post, but i'm typing from a working laptop with internets connection - woo.  slight issue with the shift key, and can't turn it off  it's a bit of a stick-and-twigs patchup, but should be properly sorted soon . appreciations.


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## frogwoman (Apr 3, 2011)

I've been archiving some journals at work from the National Federation of Claimants Unions in the 70s. It was quite an eye opener.


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## ymu (Apr 3, 2011)

We should definitely have stalls outside ATOS centres. Good idea.

Can you scan some stuff for the educational archives of BSBACAS, froggie? I can host stuff if you email the files to me.

We need a mod involved to move this to P&P and make us our own open forum.


----------



## yardbird (Apr 3, 2011)

ymu said:


> We should definitely have stalls outside ATOS centres. Good idea.


 
At least ATOS don't discriminate - they treat _everyone_ like shit!


----------



## rollinder (Apr 3, 2011)

I've got webspace with a wordpressblog that I never got round to setting up properly, going spare if that's any help.


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## ymu (Apr 3, 2011)

Superb. I'm thinking that we could coordinate a blog and wiki with the forums to facilitate decision-making and develop support materials and online learning.


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## frogwoman (Apr 3, 2011)

ymu said:


> We should definitely have stalls outside ATOS centres. Good idea.
> 
> Can you scan some stuff for the educational archives of BSBACAS, froggie? I can host stuff if you email the files to me.
> 
> We need a mod involved to move this to P&P and make us our own open forum.


 
These are the hard copies of the journals they're not on the computers and i think i would have to ask to have access to borrow them. I can see what I can do but I'm not sure I'd be able to.


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## ymu (Apr 3, 2011)




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## RaverDrew (Apr 3, 2011)

Just got in from a very very long and exhausting day, too much to take in and reply to atm, but I like what I've read so far...  I think 



Rest is needed now, srs business to attend to tomorrow by the looks of things.


----------



## ymu (Apr 3, 2011)




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## ymu (Apr 3, 2011)

Facebook page needs to be public tufty wufty.

I'm going to break with my refusenik status and sign up.


----------



## ymu (Apr 3, 2011)

Great stuff! 

Have requested to join the group. So many members already!


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## rollinder (Apr 3, 2011)

tufty79 said:


> might be worth making it a community page or something instead or as well as?)



a page'll be good too (or whichever's the one that give's you a page and discussion bit as well - I can't remember)
for people who only do facebook/don't want to join another site(s)  but want to post more & more detailed discussions than just wall postings. I think ?


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## ymu (Apr 3, 2011)

Fuckin' hell tufters, good work!

145 facebook members already!

*faints*


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## tar1984 (Apr 3, 2011)

Link to the facebook page pls? 

If it's been posted I missed it.


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## ymu (Apr 3, 2011)

Have contacted the Unemployed Workers Union on Facebook. IWW and TUC next.


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## rollinder (Apr 3, 2011)

ymu said:


> Fuckin' hell tufters, good work!
> 
> 145 facebook members already!
> 
> *faints*


great one








tar1984 said:


> Link to the facebook page pls?
> 
> If it's been posted I missed it.


 


tufty79 said:


> http://www.facebook.com/home.php?sk=group_207551415940301#!/home.php?sk=group_207551415940301 set up..


----------



## tar1984 (Apr 3, 2011)

Thanks rollinder


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## ymu (Apr 3, 2011)

Have dropped a line to the IWW and contacted the TUC blog (who are following me on Twitter *strut*).


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## goldenecitrone (Apr 3, 2011)

Good work. The Big Society in action. Though maybe not quite how Ian Duncan Smith imagined it.


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## tufty79 (Apr 3, 2011)

ymu said:


> Facebook page needs to be public *tufty wufty*.


  will try sort a workaround ASAP



ymu said:


> I'm going to break with my refusenik status and sign up.


bloody hell!



ymu said:


> Fuckin' hell tufters, good work!
> 
> 145 facebook members already!
> 
> *faints*


MOSTLY unwilling people on my friends list who've not had chance to delete themselves yet 



ymu said:


> Have contacted the Unemployed Workers Union on Facebook. IWW and TUC next.


 


ymu said:


> Have dropped a line to the IWW and contacted the TUC blog (who are following me on Twitter *strut*).


 
AWESOME


----------



## trevhagl (Apr 3, 2011)

my mate has been threatened with a sanction for not applying for 2 jobs -

one is in an abbatoir (he's a veggie!)

the other starts at 6am , 15 miles away - no buses can get him there for this time. When he said that, Pauline's Pens said "get a taxi"

so on a minimum wage of £220 my mate is expected to get 5 taxis x £15 and pay 5 x £5 return journey on the bus !!

what planet do these Tory cunts live on?


----------



## trevhagl (Apr 3, 2011)

goldenecitrone said:


> Good work. The Big Society in action. Though maybe not quite how Ian Duncan Smith imagined it.


 
Joined! And i posted a link on Show Your Disgust For The Tories group


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## tufty79 (Apr 3, 2011)

nice one trev


----------



## _angel_ (Apr 3, 2011)

trevhagl said:


> my mate has been threatened with a sanction for not applying for 2 jobs -
> 
> one is in an abbatoir (he's a veggie!)


I always thought that sort of thing they were allowed to make exceptions for 'moral reasons'. Actually, they probably are meant to, but none of the staff either know or care about it. If he had a religion behind him there would be no chance of them forcing it.





> the other starts at 6am , 15 miles away - no buses can get him there for this time. When he said that, Pauline's Pens said "get a taxi"
> 
> so on a minimum wage of £220 my mate is expected to get 5 taxis x £15 and pay 5 x £5 return journey on the bus !!
> 
> what planet do these Tory cunts live on?


 
It's not to do with the 'tories' tho is it? All this wold have been happening under the last govt.


----------



## tufty79 (Apr 3, 2011)

yeah, it's not just the tories, it's all of 'em.


this is ace - i feel like stella must've when she did the jan moir thing  
slowly sorting pagestuff out and might be going out for a little nom later - should get it all prettied up by this evening though x


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## RaverDrew (Apr 3, 2011)

Fedayn said:


> Christ i'm tired, been a busy old day, shot a couple of Jews trying to escape, set the dogs on a few gypsies and tortured a few mental health inmates..... Life is tiring as a concentration camp guard.... Oh well, better get on with gassing a few jews and commies..... Bit of luck throw a few cripples in there too......


 
Right, first of all apologies for that comment. Reading it back it was completely hyperbolic and in very poor taste. I appreciate that there are good people within the system with their hands tied to an extent, and they don't deserve to be labelled in that way. Sorry. 

My point without the hyperbole still stands though, I'd like to see these DWP workers stand up to their bosses who try to force them to implement immoral procedures. They'd have our full solidarity and support.  Please work with us and not against us.


----------



## RaverDrew (Apr 3, 2011)

Right some more points, still haven't woken up properly yet after a long and much needed sleep so please excuse any incoherence (or if you rip the piss with it just be gentle please).

This seems to have completely taken off already, well done folks, especially tufty79.  Tbh I've had a busy weekend planned with other stuff so was originally going to just brainstorm over the weekend with others who had already contacted me, and start trying to organise the practicalities on Monday. But, fuck it why wait eh ?

Which brings me on to my first point. Autonomy and political neutrality. There's a lot of people out there affected by this. Angry people. That anger needs to be harnessed in a positive way. Not all these people will fall within the same sides of the political spectrum. They're angry about their personal circumstances, not with the tories etc. Regardless their anger is still valid and needs to be used in the right way. There are a lot of Jobcentres across the country that need picketing. I personally believe that this group/movement needs to be be as politically neutral as possible to encourage the wide participation that will be needed. Is this even possible ? Thoughts needed peeps...

Would accepting donations towards costs from other political groups cause problems ? I have concerns about hijacking from others with agendas. That's not what this is all about imo.

Maybe it would be best to stick to purely being a resource for people to turn up, be given facts about how they are being screwed over and able to download simple leaflets explaining their rights about sanctions etc and how to deal with them and make valid appeals. Also be a distribution resource for posters and flyers they could use to raise awareness of these targeted sanctions.

There is a universal anger out there towards this and it needs to be as inclusive as possible and harnessed in the right way, regardless of one's personal political beliefs.

Possible legal ramifications? The jobcentres aren't exactly going to be happy about this are they ? Would we need someone legal to look over what we are distributing to avoid libel etc ?

Which brings me on to my next point. Anonymity. What if there were any legal comebacks, or aggro from angry people/security services ? Personally I value my anonymity to an extent and was going to set up new facebook/twitter/urban accounts in order to preserve that, but seems like it's a bit late for that now.  I don't even own any ID atm ffs so I don't think being treasurer etc of anything is going to be practical for me.  

I see anonymous as a good model for stuff like this. What can be learnt from them and the way they operate ?

DWP staff. Very important that there are no attacks on front line DWP staff. It's important. Yes, I've changed my tone somewhat since yesterday, I know. We need the good ones onside. How can we benefit (excuse the pun) each other ? Solidarity is needed to an extent in both directions.

I've loads more to add to this but have to go out briefly.

More later.... 

ps. All feedback appreciated. Even if it's just "STFU Drew!!!"  I realise some of this has probably been discussed earlier in the thread but I'm pretty rushed today and haven't read it all in detail.

Back soon.


----------



## treelover (Apr 3, 2011)

socialist unity on the JC swindlers...

good stuff,    from them....



AN OPEN LETTER TO MARK SERWOTKA AND THE PCS

http://socialistunity.com/


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## treelover (Apr 3, 2011)

Raver Drew, the left have no purchase on this, they took little notice when the reforms came in under NL, it must surely remain non party political...


----------



## RaverDrew (Apr 3, 2011)

Totally treelover

Tbh I feel hopelessly naive with a lot of this, and possibly a bit out of my depth. I just feel that unity is needed if this is to have any real effect. If that means working together with people that have completely different political beliefs then so be it. The anger from ALL needs to be harnessed.


----------



## Greebo (Apr 3, 2011)

RaverDrew said:


> The anger from ALL needs to be harnessed.


 
Agreed.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 3, 2011)

RaverDrew said:


> Right some more points, still haven't woken up properly yet after a long and much needed sleep so please excuse any incoherence (or if you rip the piss with it just be gentle please).
> 
> This seems to have completely taken off already, well done folks, especially tufty79. Tbh I've had a busy weekend planned with other stuff so was originally going to just brainstorm over the weekend with others who had already contacted me, and start trying to organise the practicalities on Monday. But, fuck it why wait eh ?
> 
> Which brings me on to my first point. Autonomy and political neutrality. There's a lot of people out there affected by this. Angry people. That anger needs to be harnessed in a positive way. Not all these people will fall within the same sides of the political spectrum. They're angry about their personal circumstances, not with the tories etc. Regardless their anger is still valid and needs to be used in the right way. There are a lot of Jobcentres across the country that need picketing. I personally believe that this group/movement needs to be be as politically neutral as possible to encourage the wide participation that will be needed. Is this even possible ? Thoughts needed peeps...



I think you're right insofar as "party politics" aren't really germane, what are germane are the personal politics of members _vis a vis_ organising against their marginalisation and arbitrary punishment. Possibly something along the lines of "we're not party-political here, so please leave your Labourism, Lib_demism or Toryism at home" needs to be said to prevent friction.

Talking of arbitrary punishment...
I just heard about a 64-year old bloke, 9 months from getting his pension, being sanctioned because he couldn't prove that he'd applied for a job. According to the person behind the counter, he should send all applications "signed for". Seeing as he sends out at least 10 applications a week, thats 15% of his dole money gone. Person behind the counter then said "come into the job centre and use our facilities, but refused to acknowledge that the cost of going to the job centre was £5-7 a go (£5 petrol, £5 return bus fare, or £7 total bus fare if you got singles both ways). 



> Would accepting donations towards costs from other political groups cause problems ? I have concerns about hijacking from others with agendas. That's not what this is all about imo.



Always a worry. IMO it needs to be made clear that while donations are welcome, no strings are accepted, and entryism is discouraged. The organisation has a set of purposes, one of the primary purposes being to support people around specific circumstances related to hassle over benefits. By the community for the community.



> Maybe it would be best to stick to purely being a resource for people to turn up, be given facts about how they are being screwed over and able to download simple leaflets explaining their rights about sanctions etc and how to deal with them and make valid appeals. Also be a distribution resource for posters and flyers they could use to raise awareness of these targeted sanctions.
> 
> There is a universal anger out there towards this and it needs to be as inclusive as possible and harnessed in the right way, regardless of one's personal political beliefs.
> 
> Possible legal ramifications? The jobcentres aren't exactly going to be happy about this are they ? Would we need someone legal to look over what we are distributing to avoid libel etc ?



Probably a good point.
There's also an issue about trespass. As I recall from previous decades, if you protest outside of dole offices/job centres, they usually try to get their security people to move you on, stating that you're on their "land" without permission. I'm fairly sure this only *actually* applies to the pavement immediately adjacent to their frontage, but I'll try and check that out.



> Which brings me on to my next point. Anonymity. What if there were any legal comebacks, or aggro from angry people/security services ? Personally I value my anonymity to an extent and was going to set up new facebook/twitter/urban accounts in order to preserve that, but seems like it's a bit late for that now. I don't even own any ID atm ffs so I don't think being treasurer etc of anything is going to be practical for me.
> 
> I see anonymous as a good model for stuff like this. What can be learnt from them and the way they operate ?
> 
> ...


 
Oi, Drew, STFU!!!

Nah, you've made loads of good points.


----------



## treelover (Apr 3, 2011)

off the G's main web page now, mmmm


----------



## treelover (Apr 3, 2011)

'Thank you all for the very interesting comment thread. on monday i will go through it in more detail.
I will just reply now to
@robbo100
Nothing about this on the BBC. If this just remains a one day wonder on The Guardian nothing is going to be done about it.
I personally will continue to push this story, try and get it raised in parliament, try and push the DWP to find out what exactly they do and don't know is going on in offices, try and find more about the ways people are being affected. So as i said before feel free to get in touch with me with any personal experiences.'


the journo who wrote the article, John Demokous want people to get in touch with their stories, etc..

maybe they can do the same for the training agencies which is an even bigger scandal..


----------



## ymu (Apr 3, 2011)

Great stuff Drew!

Some random thoughts which connect with your points.

1. Politically it is already pretty neutral. The anti-cuts argument is pure Keynes - a liberal who sought to make capitalism more stable, to save it from itself. And we had greater growth before Thatcher than after. It's a pro-capitalist argument we're making here. This is an early draft rant that I'm asking better heads than mine to look over at the moment, but it explains the anti-cuts argument from an essentially hard-headed capitalist financial point of view.

2. There aren't any political parties articulating this viewpoint (save arguably the Greens). My slogan for this whole thing would be "Democracy is the limits we place on power".

3. I'm exploring affiliation with the NUWU - although not all our activists will be unemployed - and also with the TUC, who should be able to advise us on financial legalities. I don't think there's a problem though - lots of non-charity groups ask for donations. We'll be keeping completely transparent open accounts - with anyone being able to object to proposed expenditures before they happen - and will do whatever we are required to do to stay on the right side of the law.

4. Anonymity should be the position until we have the legal side sorted out, but we're not talking about an in yer face action here. Just a pasting table and stools outside the job centre, leafleting everyone who goes in and signing up as many as possible. There is no law they can move you on with as long as you are not interfering with people's right of way or stopping other's conducting their business. Brian Haw is still there because he can't be moved.

5. We must make sure that those activists running the stall are safe from victimisation, which means ensuring that there are enough people volunteering that they can seek work, making sure they have netbook and dongle to help them seek work even while signing people up, and that everyone has instant access to advice here or elsewhere if problems arise.


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## ymu (Apr 3, 2011)

And following on from VP:

Yes - activist time is for activism, politics is for the pub.

Completely flat non-hierarchical structure. Decisions get made by those who make and discuss suggestions. Roles shared out as much as possible.


If Drew can't open the bank account, is there someone who can? Volunteers for National Treasurer. Would need to respond to finance requests approved here by general consensus, and stick up regular summaries of incomings and outgoings to keep us all in the loop.

I think we should recruit kabbes.


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## ymu (Apr 3, 2011)

And on the expert stuff, Drew. I think we want to ask for volunteers from all walks of life to advise us, and also to help on the careers advisory side. People in work can often see the kinds of jobs that would suit someone out of work, and know how to get trained for them, but when you're out of work, it's hard to know what's out there.

Completely open membership, to anyone who can sign up to the basic principals (self-organisation, solidarity, non-violence?)


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## ymu (Apr 3, 2011)

CJA and trespass (for activists):



> Section 68 of the Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994 (CJA) defines the offence as follows:
> A person commits aggravated trespass if he trespasses on land with the intention of disrupting, or intimidating those taking part in, lawful activity taking place on that or adjacent land.
> Points to Note
> 
> ...



If anyone knows this to be wrong or incomplete, please correct!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 3, 2011)

ymu said:


> CJA and trespass (for activists):
> 
> 
> 
> If anyone knows this to be wrong or incomplete, please correct!


 
It's apparently accurate (I checked with a legal bod).

What is meant by "public highway" is, put simply, the pavement. You can be done for protesting/assembling on their forecourt, but not for doing so on the public highway (although you may be done by the OB for obstruction of you cause one). Also, if the JC security guards follow their usual orders, they'll try to move you on despite you being on the public highway. If they manhandle you to move you on while you're on the public highway, this may constitute an act of assault. All they're permitted to do is to request that you move on.

"The right of the public in respect of a highway is limited to the use of it for the purpose of passing and repassing *and for such other reasonable purposes as it is usual to use the highway*; if a member of the public uses it for any other purpose than that of passing and repassing he will be a trespasser." (my emphasis)
Clerk & Lindsell, The Law of Torts , 17th ed. (1995), para. 17-41.

"Such other reasonable purposes" have historically been such practices as petitioning, soliciting charitable contributions, surveying the public and political lobbying and promotion. I can't see that leafleting and lobbying prospective members falls outside of anything that is currently permissible.


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## ymu (Apr 3, 2011)

So, we need to set up 'office' on a wide enough pavement nearby to avoid causing an obstruction.

Longer term, the aim should be for each branch to have a collaboration with one or more local pubs and cafes to provide a catered drop-in space for people to come to. It could be very popular with those who do little day-time trade, and they might well offer a discount on tea for members.


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## ymu (Apr 3, 2011)

I spent most of one demo explaining to a copper outside Downing Street why I wasn't going to move into the kettle because I wasn't causing an obstruction on the pavement and he was going to have to prove that I was and show me his authority to move me on before I was going anywhere.

We need to make sure everyone can challenge security and police who try to move them on. They must know the law and demand to know the basis of any action. And we need legal types on board to make sure that massive compensation follows illegal attempts to move people on.


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## ViolentPanda (Apr 3, 2011)

Doesn't need to be "massive compensation". A dozen small cases can cause more expense and inconvenience than a single large one.


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## ymu (Apr 3, 2011)

Pretty much anything is 'massive' by comparison to £65/wk.


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## yardbird (Apr 3, 2011)

As I mentioned earlier, personally I would like to confront ATOS.
I can make one small gesture if I am told that I have to be reassessed.
I was going to demand that they come to me, for several reasons. I think I've got a better idea however.
I'll go to them and shit myself and piss all over the interview room floor (I've only got MS after all)
I will take a change of clothes.


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## smokedout (Apr 3, 2011)

good stuff on this thread 

the next Day of Action Against Benefit Cuts is on the 14th April - events are already planned in London, Leeds, Bristol, Brighton and Poole

theres also action against atos planned for may - details tomorrow

if anyone organises leafleting sessions, protests, meetings etc on or around the 14th let me know and i can make sure they get promoted on the website/fb page - also if groups want to be listed as supporters let me know  (list of supporters below)

details of plans for the 14th: http://benefitclaimantsfightback.wordpress.com/2011/03/30/national-day-of-protest-against-benefit-cuts-day-3/

fb page for the event: http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=164277070288955

benefit claimants fightback fb group: http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=116432071735566

list of supporters

o Anti-Benefit Cuts Glasgow
o Black Triangle Anti-Defamation Campaign
o Brighton Benefits Campaign
o Cardiff’s Unemployed Daytime Disco
o Carer Watch
o Carer Watch fb page
o Crippen – Disabled Cartoonist
o Diary of a Benefit Scrounger
o Disabled People Against Cuts
o Dundee Unemployed Workers
o Edinburgh Coalition Against Poverty
o Free London Listings
o Goldsmiths in Occupation
o Haringey Solidarity Group
o Ipswich Unemployed Action
o Islington Poverty Action
o Kilburn Unemployed Workers Group
o Lancaster and Morecambe Against the Cuts
o London Coalition Against Poverty (LCAP)
o London Foodbank
o Mad Pride
o Medway Against The Cuts
o Mental Health Resistance Network
o Norfolk Community Action Group
o Nottingham Claimants' Union
o Nuneaton Against Benefit Cuts
o Oxford Save Our Services
o Squattastic
o Tyneside Claimants Union
o Welfare Action Hackney
o Welfare Rights 4 u (UK)
o Work Programme & Flexible New Deal Scandal
o World Homeless Day


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## ymu (Apr 3, 2011)

OK - we need ALL of them on board!

Can you get the word out, smokedout?


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## audiotech (Apr 3, 2011)

yardbird said:


> As I mentioned earlier, personally I would like to confront ATOS.
> I can make one small gesture if I am told that I have to be reassessed.
> I was going to demand that they come to me, for several reasons. I think I've got a better idea however.
> I'll go to them and shit myself and piss all over the interview room floor (I've only got MS after all)
> I will take a change of clothes.



I contacted ATOS upteem times and I've finally been granted a home visit after demanding to speak to a local manager, who to be fair was pretty reasonable and was dismayed with the level of bureaucracy he had to deal with for such a request as mine.


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## smokedout (Apr 4, 2011)

ymu said:


> OK - we need ALL of them on board!
> 
> Can you get the word out, smokedout?


 
yes, have contact details for all the above but would be good to have a place to direct people to, even a wordpress site with some basic details


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## ymu (Apr 4, 2011)

We have the facebook page, and we have this thread (which anyone can read without registering). What we need for the long term is up for discussion.


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## tufty79 (Apr 4, 2011)

we now have a 'likeable' facebook page w/discussion area, rather than a group that you need to apply to join - http://www.facebook.com/pages/Big-S...ervice-NUWU-recruitment-drive/123037424438427

(huge THANK YOU to a certain urb for that one)


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## ymu (Apr 4, 2011)

Still trying to work out this facebook stuff, but that looks ace!


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## creak (Apr 4, 2011)

This is an excellent idea, very impressive to see the work of all involved. I was wondering with regards to training volunteer advisors though whether it would it be possible to 'obtain' a copy of some of the material JC+ use to train their staff with. Not only would it be handy to have the procedural/legal information etc., but you'd get an insight into how staff are being taught to react to situations and a clear idea of what steps they'll take in particular cases- could give something of a 'tactical advantage' in disputes?


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## The Black Hand (Apr 4, 2011)

Garek said:


> Yep  Been sanctioned for failing to properly write out forms despite repeated attempts to inform them of dyslexia. I wrote down all my job searches and stuff I had done on the computer. I put down all the information that the form was asking. I printed it off and was told it was unacceptable. It didn't matter I had answered all the questions. The answers had to be written on the form I was given. They said if I really had dyslexia I should be give them a lter proving it. I am not sure people realise how hard it is to go through all that (getting the lett I mean).
> 
> They are fucking cunts that bastards at the JC. Nearly every time I have been there there have been a core group standing aroung just chatting and gossiping whilst people sit there for hours waiting there turn. The JC is an excercise in removing all human dignity. Cunts.


 
B#stards.


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## past caring (Apr 4, 2011)

creak said:


> This is an excellent idea, very impressive to see the work of all involved. *I was wondering with regards to training volunteer advisors though whether it would it be possible to 'obtain' a copy of some of the material JC+ use to train their staff with. Not only would it be handy to have the procedural/legal information etc.,* but you'd get an insight into how staff are being taught to react to situations and a clear idea of what steps they'll take in particular cases- could give something of a 'tactical advantage' in disputes?



Whilst obtaining such material may well have its uses, I would be cautious of treating it as an accurate statement of the law (if it were, I'd be unlikely to succeed as often as I do when representing claimants at tribunals).

I'm happy to contribute with legal advice (and possibly even tribunal representation in London) but I'm not certain that pursuing appeals, no matter how successfully, is necessarily the way to go in terms of changing policy. You can win any number of appeals (and I do) but by that time the damage is done - an appeal on a sanction may well take 3-6 months to get heard by a tribunal. Even where you do win, it's not like there's any huge come back (not sure there's any) in the JC+ office involved. 

Other types of legal challenge (county court claims, judicial reviews) may stand more chance of success in terms of attacking policy - but they will be much harder to bring and require a paper trail that may not exist/be obtainable.

will need to think some more on this.....


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## RaverDrew (Apr 4, 2011)

Sorry folks, been really busy with other things the last few days. Have just returned from the Jobcentre after having to sort out my claim for umpteenth time. Finally, after a year of trying to persuade them to use some common sense, they are now letting me sign on at my local Jobcentre (10min walk) rather than the one that is 5 miles and two bus journeys away  

I also had a VERY interesting chat with an employee there which could be extremely useful indeed !!!  I told her the horror stories about my repeated sanctions and appeals at the previous Jobcentre I was with, and without any prompting from me she came out with... "I couldn't possibly tell you about stage 3 staff being given quotas and targets for sanctioning people" whilst giving me a nudge and a wink. 

Despite my previous comments, I do really feel for the staff that are trying their best to help people and do the right thing. 

This is why it is critical that there are NO personal attacks on front line workers.

Lots of good ideas coming together on this thread. Good work from all so far. 

Again, I think it's vitally important that we keep as politically neutral as possible with this. Is linking the name of this facebook group with the "Big Society" really doing that ? No offence, but going just by the name of the group "Big Society Benefits & Careers Advisory Service & NUWU recruitment drive" doesn't really convey much info about what this is all about. Could something be integrated into it about the "targeted sanctions" ? Something that could immediately grab the attention of the people that are being hit with this. I've had someone contact me who has joined the group but doesn't seem to understand entirely what this is all about, what can be done, or what they need to do.

Unfortunately I haven't got as much free time as I thought I'd have to devote towards this atm as I'm starting a voluntary job placement this week. I'd still like to be able to help with stuff as much as possible though.


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## tufty79 (Apr 4, 2011)

More admins etc needed.. More than happy to change the name here (any suggestions?), was thinking earlier about the political neutrality side of things. And the aims. And all of it... Internet on laptop keeps wonking out and it's not too easy to do stuff on me phone... But yup, we do need to get clearer/less fuzzy, emphasise nvda and mutual support/education, and sharpen it up a bit


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## RaverDrew (Apr 4, 2011)

tufty79 said:


> More admins etc needed.. More than happy to change the name here (any suggestions?), was thinking earlier about the political neutrality side of things. And the aims. And all of it... Internet on laptop keeps wonking out and it's not too easy to do stuff on me phone... But yup, we do need to get clearer/less fuzzy, emphasise nvda and mutual support/education, and sharpen it up a bit



Nice one tufty79 you've done superb so far btw, your enthusiasm is plain to see.  

I just think it's best to keep it as "straight to the point" as possible if it's to be taken seriously.

Btw is anyone in contact with the journo who originally wrote that Guardian article ?


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## RaverDrew (Apr 4, 2011)

tufty79 said:


> (any suggestions?)


 
How about... *"Action Against Targeted JSA Sanctions"*

Seems simple enough and to the point. Would be even better if we could think of one that has a catchy acronym.


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## rollinder (Apr 4, 2011)

from what I read earlier the name needs changing before the group gets to many members
Time to start brainstorming
eta: 
http://www.facebook.com/help/?faq=15196



			
				bloody complicated facebook said:
			
		

> How do I change my Page name?
> If an error was made in your Page name when it was created, you have the option to edit the Page name to correct this issue. This option is only limited to Pages with less than 100 connections. After selecting to edit your Page, you can adjust this information from the "Basic Information" section.


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## ymu (Apr 4, 2011)

Yeah. Good points all Drew.

I suppose the Big Society branding idea was because it's instantly recognisable from UK Uncut's Big Society Revenue and Customs. Sarcastic and sincere all at the same time - but that doesn't mean it strikes everyone like that.

I just properly got your point on anonymity and the risk of retaliation by staff in the JCs. I think a large part of it should be trying to engage with staff in the JCs and getting them to volunteer their time as advisors outside of the office - bridging some gaps and protecting those most vulnerable to target-seeking employees, and perhaps empowering them to rebel if they're inclined to obey.

I was going to ask if cross-picketing local JCs, to lessen the risk of victimisation, might be feasible. But the transport costs might be a bit of an issue. I was thinking that people could combine signing on with helping out with recruitment and advice outside. But it's years since I had to deal with DWP, so I'm not in a good position to develop a strategy on that score.


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## tufty79 (Apr 5, 2011)

rollinder said:


> from what I read earlier the name needs changing before the group gets to many members
> Time to start brainstorming
> eta:
> http://www.facebook.com/help/?faq=15196


agh. failfailfail on my behalf. we are on our original name still.
also thinking of posting this if it's ok?



> we would like to assert that we are a non-political 'organisation', in so far as we are not affiliated with any political party, political category, or anyone else's agenda.
> 
> we would also like to take the opportunity to state that we believe in non violent direct action (where any action may be deemed necessary), and that we do not wish to threaten, intimidate or harm any individual or group.


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## ymu (Apr 5, 2011)

RaverDrew said:


> How about... *"Action Against Targeted JSA Sanctions"*
> 
> Seems simple enough and to the point. Would be even better if we could think of one that has a catchy acronym.


 
That seems very restricted in scope to me. 

I'm not sure what 'politics' we're worried about here. Unionisation, decent wages, the welfare state were all introduced to save capitalism from itself. They're fundamentally pro-capitalist policies.

One of the causes of the 1929 crash was identified as workers not being able to buy what they made. Collective bargaining and welfare were about ensuring that wages could not fall below a given level, because allowing employers to exercise the kind of power that has people working long hours for pennies in developing countries makes it impossible to sustain a thriving internal economy.

You either sell to your own workers - which means paying them enough - or you sell to rich consumers elsewhere. If you sell to rich consumers elsewhere, you need low wages and terrible, terrible, living conditions for the majority of the population. And eventually the rich consumers will be so heavily in debt that they aren't rich consumers any more and the developing country has to start using its surplus to develop its own internal market, which is exactly what is happening right now.

The politics here is fundamentally middle of the road. Keynes was not a revolutionary!


----------



## tufty79 (Apr 5, 2011)

i worry about being labelled specifically as a tory-hating group (although i don't like the fuckers, i don't want this whole thing to boil down to that, or be able to be perceived as doing so)... i'm knackered, but will write some more tomorrow if that's alright.
sleep good y'all, and thank you all for being all inspiring and clever and, well, awesome. x


----------



## ymu (Apr 5, 2011)

I don't disagree with that - but then, the One Nation Tories hate this sort of stuff too and New Labour started this shit in the first place - so it's hard to see how it's party political, unless all the information we give out tries to pretend that it's just this government, which would be ludicrous.

It is worth noting, again, that UK Uncut - which used the Big Society Revenue & Customs label - has had a lot of support from those sections of the Tory press that cater to middle England and not just the top 1%. And it was Labour that cut staff at HMRC by a third, so they're hardly banging the drum for them!

I don't think the anti-cuts protest movement has any strong political ties. Most people are fed up with the lot of them AFAICT. Party politics is completely irrelevant for this initiative. Labour aren't offering anything better at all for the economically disenfranchised, and this shit started with them.


----------



## RaverDrew (Apr 5, 2011)

ymu said:


> Yeah. Good points all Drew.
> 
> I suppose the Big Society branding idea was because it's instantly recognisable from UK Uncut's Big Society Revenue and Customs. Sarcastic and sincere all at the same time - but that doesn't mean it strikes everyone like that.
> 
> ...



Totally, I imagine it could be a very bad idea to do anything to upset the staff at your local jobcentre.  I speak from bitter experience that thankfully looks like has been resolved for me after today, touch wood. Anonymity is a major issue imo and this could (and possibly has already) attract a lot of unwanted attention. There's not much that can be done about that apart from trying to protect yourselves as much as possible.



ymu said:


> That seems very restricted in scope to me.
> 
> I'm not sure what 'politics' we're worried about here. Unionisation, decent wages, the welfare state were all introduced to save capitalism from itself. They're fundamentally pro-capitalist policies.
> 
> ...


 
To me there seems to be plenty of other groups out there already that cater more towards that side of things, although there are certainly some great ideas mentioned here and elsewhere that should be integrated in some way. 

I feel that there's a single issue here from the initial article that needs to be targeted, just as they are targeting the claimants. 

*Sanctions* - Personally I'd like to raise awareness on how to avoid them, let people know their rights, and where to seek help if they need to appeal. If there is any direct action that can be orchestrated it needs to involve as many who are affected as possible, with simple and politically neutral (as much as it can be) aims and methods, whilst also being peaceful and lawful. It needs to be something that is easy for people to follow and implement themselves, based on clear guidelines on how to make a difference, and how to raise awareness and help fellow claimants without falling foul of the law. This affects claimants from every jobcentre across the country. We're all in it together. 

I'm going to try and contact a very trusted criminal lawyer tomorrow to maybe help give us an outline of what can and can't be done legally.

I've also had a couple of pm's from people offering help in certain ways, I'll be in contact as soon as I can, please bear with me.

Like I said already, I maybe feel a bit naive and out of my depth with some of this, and am very short of free time to devote towards matters this week. *Regardless, things need to get moving asap.* 

Is there anyone with experience of working on similar action who can help kick-start this project ? Especially with helping to organise the practicalities ?

A couple of things off the top of my head that would be very useful for people to volunteer atm would be...


A list or database of every Citizens Advice Bureau (or similar) across the country.

Someone with web design/wordpress skills (plus the spare time obviously) to knock up together something basic to get us started.


----------



## ymu (Apr 5, 2011)

I think it's critical that whatever happens, this is steered by people at the sharp end. I'm not, so it ain't up to me. But I'll give you all the support I can to help make things happen.

Are you reluctant to work with the NUWU because it's too 'political', because otherwise that seems like the obvious place to start. I don't know how far they've got since this. There doesn't seem to be much of a national web presence bar the facebook group but this is from the Cambs UWU (still trawling for more). Looks a lot more political than you'd want! And I can't say it looks that useful ...

I agree completely about the single-issue, save the political debate for the pub, approach - every single-issue group needs to work on that principle - but I'm not clear what you're regarding as 'politics' here.


----------



## RaverDrew (Apr 5, 2011)

In principle I'm not really against being tied in with, affiliated, or linked with any other groups. 

But like you mention, I'd like this to be something for those that are on the raw end of this. The people who have already been or are potentially directly affected by sanctions. They are the ones who are angry, and without wanting to stereotype claimants, the ones that have most free time and motivation to put in the hours outside and around the Jobcentres.

I'd like to see this as merely a resource that's kept simple and made as easy as possible for people to do there bit.

So how about this for a start ?

Contact the journalist who originally broke the story, to find out the facts, and clarify exactly what we need to raise awareness about.

Collate any other information we may find out from other sources that may be useful.

Build a simple website explaining what has happened, what people need to be aware of, how to avoid the sanctions, their rights, and how and where to seek help with appeals.

*Produce a simple black and white PDF flyer made available online for people to download and have printed. This will be for anyone to distribute to claimants at jobcentres or "Work Programme" contractors (a4e ingeus etc.)*

This flyer should contain a basic outline and warning about the targeted sanctions, a link to the website, facebook group, twitter etc. how to find out more information, what specifically can be done, and how you can contribute. 

Links to resources in helping people to get the flyers printed.

Give clear guidelines to people about their legal rights in distributing these leaflets and how to avoid falling foul of the law while raising awareness. *This should also contain a warning not to attack the jobcentre or it's staff directly.*

Amongst the information on the site, have a page linking to other similar groups that you may be interested in, or who may be able to help with related matters. ie. ESA and Atos issues etc


----------



## ymu (Apr 5, 2011)

That sounds perfect!

Have had some feedback from people saying that they don't do facebook (and I've sent plenty of similar messages in the past!), so a wordpress blog would probably be the best focus of materials and discussion, with facebook and twitter being used to direct people to it. It puts people off if they have to register to do participate.

Each local group could, and should, work out what they're going to do. Any 'national' organisation should be restricted to some basic principles (non-violence, respect for DWP workers etc), facilitating communication, and fund-raising to help with printing and other costs.


----------



## wayward bob (Apr 5, 2011)

RaverDrew said:


> Someone with web design/wordpress skills (plus the spare time obviously) to knock up together something basic to get us started.


 
i could do this  will pm you drew.


----------



## tufty79 (Apr 5, 2011)

aagh. and another thing....  i've just rung my back to work advisor at ingeus (used to be pathways to work; did work focussed interviews for the first six months of me esa claim, and they provide support for people on health benefits) to ask about taking advantage of their work psych, their pilates class, and for advice about working out how to get back to work. apparently the service is no longer open for new appointments... and i now have to ask the job centre for any advice. no idea if any of the other stuff's going to be in place with the jc.. i'm at some kind of raw end which is a similar flavour to the sanctions but a different beast... and so are thousands of others.


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## treelover (Apr 5, 2011)

'http://unlawfulsanctions.org.uk/'

is this something similar to what you are planning?

good stuff anyway


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Apr 5, 2011)

RaverDrew said:


> [*]A list or database of every Citizens Advice Bureau (or similar) across the country.


Citizens Advice Scroll to the bottom of the page and you enter your post code and loads of local CABx are listed.


----------



## ymu (Apr 5, 2011)

ATOS nurse speaks out.



> “I worked for Atos as a ‘disability analyst’ thinking I would be helping vulnerable people to access their benefits,” she said.
> 
> “I soon discovered that nothing could be further from the truth. The rules laid down by the bosses are designed to catch people out.”
> 
> ...


----------



## RaverDrew (Apr 5, 2011)

ymu said:


> That sounds perfect!
> 
> Have had some feedback from people saying that they don't do facebook (and I've sent plenty of similar messages in the past!), so a wordpress blog would probably be the best focus of materials and discussion, with facebook and twitter being used to direct people to it. It puts people off if they have to register to do participate.
> 
> Each local group could, and should, work out what they're going to do. Any 'national' organisation should be restricted to some basic principles (non-violence, respect for DWP workers etc), facilitating communication, and fund-raising to help with printing and other costs.


 
Seems a good direction to take. 



treelover said:


> 'http://unlawfulsanctions.org.uk/'
> 
> is this something similar to what you are planning?
> 
> good stuff anyway


 
I tried looking at that site the other day but the pages wouldn't load. It seems to be working again now, so will have a good bedtime read in a mo.  There seems to be a LOT of useful information on there. Will need to contact them asap.



Paulie Tandoori said:


> Citizens Advice Scroll to the bottom of the page and you enter your post code and loads of local CABx are listed.


 
Excellent Paulie thank you very much.  

I'm wondering if there is anyway to collate and print a list of them all for those with no net access or money to use an internet cafe/phone ?

Just an update: I've had no joy contacting the lawyer I wanted to speak to (it's been a good couple of years since she gave me her business card) so may try chasing a different one. Does anyone have any recommendations ? Preferably one who specialises in dealing with benefits in some way, and may be sympathetic to the cause.

*We really need to get the wording of the flyer and legal advice sorted asap, so we can crack on with this.* 

There have been a few offers of general advice, help, and web/design/coding skills. Thank you massively again peeps.


----------



## yardbird (Apr 5, 2011)

As my fb friends know, today I feel targeted.
I recieved the ATOS "Limited capability for work questionnaire" this morning.
I feel/felt just like calling it a day - the simple way out. Wtf don't they understand about my MS?
The only thing that keeps me going is some good things that have happened in my personal life - finding the "little girl" that I brought up and who is 29 now.
Otherwise I was just feeling like doing my will and turning the lights out.

Do they know what they are doing?

Anything that can be done to help others is a good thing.
Thank you Tufty and Drew for starting this - it gives me some motivation.


----------



## Obnoxiousness (Apr 6, 2011)

yardbird said:


> I feel/felt just like calling it a day - the simple way out. Wtf don't they understand about my MS?


Don't get too upset... I know it seems bad, but that's how they want you to feel.  Don't let 'em piss you off.  This has turned into a very positive thread, so don't go doing anything drastic yet!!


----------



## treelover (Apr 6, 2011)

Hope you are ok, Yardbird, opposition is now growing after all these years, there are also many dirty tricks, Grayling has said CAB are a partner for the Work Programme, yet the CAB CEO says this is rubbish and they are not sub-contracting, not surprising when A4E are trying to take over its role...

though of course they may in the future...


----------



## treelover (Apr 6, 2011)

SWP/RTW are co-hosting with UKDPC a 'Hardest Hit' Rally/Lobby outside Parliament, at last the some of the left is taking welfare issues more seriously..

http://righttowork.org.uk/2011/04/hardest-hit-march/


scratch that, I think it is much more broad based than that, Scope amongst others

http://e-activist.com/ea-action/action?ea.client.id=1677&ea.campaign.id=9876&ea.tracking.id=d84d69fb


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## ViolentPanda (Apr 6, 2011)

yardbird said:


> As my fb friends know, today I feel targeted.
> I recieved the ATOS "Limited capability for work questionnaire" this morning.
> I feel/felt just like calling it a day - the simple way out. Wtf don't they understand about my MS?



remember when you were a kid, and silence got you accused of "dumb insolence"? Well that's the game the ATOSsers play. They don't care about us as human beings with moderate to severe health problems. They only care about us as units of profit or loss, and *their* "dumb insolence" - the repeated forms, the interminable asking and re-asking of the same questions over and over, is all bent toward one goal: To make you a profitable unit, rather than one that loses them money. Their accountants will have analysed the DWPs' statistics, they'll *know* exactly how much pressure needs to be exerted to make someone cease their claim, and they really don't care about what happens to us, except if it garners them bad publicity.



> The only thing that keeps me going is some good things that have happened in my personal life - finding the "little girl" that I brought up and who is 29 now.
> Otherwise I was just feeling like doing my will and turning the lights out.
> 
> Do they know what they are doing?



Yes, they do. That's why it's important for us all to be as dumbly insolent to them s they are to us - to stick the knife in and twist it as often as possible. That's why I always encourage people who get knocked back to keep on at the bastards:Eventually the weight of complaints, tribunal decisions and ratios of reversed decisions gets too heavy for them to hide, and like Schlumberger-Sema before them, their political paymasters get fed up with the high embarrassment factor.



> Anything that can be done to help others is a good thing.
> Thank you Tufty and Drew for starting this - it gives me some motivation.


 
You're not sharpening your sword-stick, are you?  I can imagine the headline: "Sliced green halfwits at the ATOS cafe!".


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## shygirl (Apr 6, 2011)

My son was recently told he needn't go in to sign on on a particular date.  Having read some of this thread, I told him to check it out and make sure this was right.  He called and was told that he was due in and they couldn't understand why he'd been given the wrong info.  It might have been a genuine mistake, but, in the light of these targets, who knows?


----------



## ymu (Apr 6, 2011)

shygirl said:


> My son was recently told he needn't go in to sign on on a particular date.  Having read some of this thread, I told him to check it out and make sure this was right.  He called and was told that he was due in and they couldn't understand why he'd been given the wrong info.  It might have been a genuine mistake, but, in the light of these targets, who knows?


 
Well done mum! Well done thread!


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## BigTom (Apr 7, 2011)

Just wanted to let you know that this has got posted around the IWW mailing lists, though I've not actually seen any response except that our unemployed branch in the west mids should be getting in contact


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## RaverDrew (Apr 8, 2011)

Update: Am seeing a very sympathetic lawyer on Monday morning (working all day tomorrow so can't be anytime before unfortunately), mainly at first to help draft what can and can't be said on this mass printout that is to be distributed. My main concern is to legally protect anyone else involved with this. Once that is sorted then we are GO !!!


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## RaverDrew (Apr 8, 2011)

ymu said:


> Well done mum!



Indeed  I've heard some real horror stories over the last few days even  I'm trying to sort out a place/system/space on the site for people to post their problems with regards to being sanctioned, and then receiving a rapid response, this is where we will need real volunteers from people that can just offer some online time towards this. This is how you can help without even having to be that active. We are all in this together remember. 



BigTom said:


> Just wanted to let you know that this has got posted around the IWW mailing lists, though I've not actually seen any response except that our unemployed branch in the west mids should be getting in contact


 
Thank you  Send us some contact details please.


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## BigTom (Apr 8, 2011)

RaverDrew said:


> Thank you  Send us some contact details please.



Will do but remind me if you've not heard anything in the next few days


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## Paulie Tandoori (Apr 8, 2011)

They've admitted now, bunch of bastards

_The government has admitted that jobcentre staff around the country have been involved in a drive to kick people off benefits amid pressure to meet welfare targets set by their managers.

The Department of Work and Pensions (DWP) initially dismissed revelations in the Guardian last weekend that Jobcentre Plus employees were tricking vulnerable claimants into losing their welfare entitlements. A whistleblower said staff at his jobcentre were given targets of three people a week to refer for sanctions, where benefits are removed for up to six months._

Grauniad


----------



## _angel_ (Apr 8, 2011)

Also the person interviewed admitted the staff will pick on people with learning disabilities and people who don't speak English as a first language.. so disablist and racist, nice!


----------



## audiotech (Apr 8, 2011)

'Customers'. Ha!



> I was threatened by management for asking too many questions. I felt what we were doing in some cases was unlawful." He said he believed offices had "their own take" on social security law in terms of the strictness with which they were sanctioning people, and that "management, and the culture of [Jobcentre Plus] – with only a few exceptions – viewed claimants with contempt.



Well hasn't that always been the case, seeing as that is the message government has sent out since the advent of the poor law.


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## ViolentPanda (Apr 8, 2011)

audiotech said:


> 'Customers'. Ha!
> 
> 
> 
> Well hasn't that always been the case, seeing as that is the message government has sent out since the advent of the poor law.


 
Yes, but there have been times when the acceptability of actually letting claimants see your contempt has varied. Back when I first signed on in 1978 (between leaving school and taking the Queen's shilling), there was a big box as you were going out of the door at the signing office, with "if you have a complaint about staff please leave a complaint here, or post to...(gave an address)". Consequently, the staff actually tried to be polite and pleasant.


----------



## yardbird (Apr 8, 2011)

Sorry about my sideways derails about ATOS, but I think that they are part of an interlinked agenda.
I've been reading some mindblowing stuff about them because I was wondering about "duty of care" and googled it 

I'm a fucking 'customer@ !


----------



## ymu (Apr 8, 2011)

yardbird said:


> Sorry about my sideways derails about ATOS, but I think that they are part of an interlinked agenda.
> I've been reading some mindblowing stuff about them because I was wondering about "duty of care" and googled it
> 
> I'm a fucking 'customer@ !


 
It's all part of the same thing. The so-called healthcare professionals working for Atos are subject to the same pressures to deny people benefits.


----------



## treelover (Apr 8, 2011)

'Also the person interviewed admitted the staff will pick on people with learning disabilities and people who don't speak English as a first language.. so disablist and racist, nice! '


truly obscene, how can they sleep at night

btw, can this excellent thread go in politics, its not about protest...


----------



## yardbird (Apr 8, 2011)

ymu said:


> It's all part of the same thing. The so-called healthcare professionals working for Atos are subject to the same pressures to deny people benefits.


 
Just what I was reading.
I've decided that they will have to come to me, so I'm seeing my doc next week to get a letter saying that I can't travel.
I'll also have a friend to assist and write notes - I need the support and also a witness.
My doc will be furious about all this ATOS bollocks!


----------



## treelover (Apr 8, 2011)

''The coalition's creed is looking less like the liberalism that it proclaims, and more like a desiccated libertarianism – which talks up the freedoms of people with means, and hurls those with none to the dogs.'


The Guardian bares some teeth at last


----------



## treelover (Apr 8, 2011)

has anyone contacted Newsnight and the BBC News to see if they are covering this, this is an dynamite story..


----------



## ymu (Apr 8, 2011)

treelover said:


> 'Also the person interviewed admitted the staff will pick on people with learning disabilities and people who don't speak English as a first language.. so disablist and racist, nice! '
> 
> 
> truly obscene, how can they sleep at night
> ...


 
The thread was moved from General into P&P because it initiated ideas for protest and needed to be visible to people without a log-in.

I have no idea why you would object to it being in protest when you spend most of your time whinging about the lack of action on these issues.


----------



## Fedayn (Apr 8, 2011)

Paulie Tandoori said:


> They've admitted now, bunch of bastards
> 
> _The government has admitted that jobcentre staff around the country have been involved in a drive to kick people off benefits amid pressure to meet welfare targets set by their managers.
> 
> ...


 


> The DWP has backtracked and released a statement confirming the practice had been going on in some offices due to a misunderstanding between the department and some jobcentre managers. It insisted this was no longer the case.
> 
> "A few weeks ago ministers discovered that their message to be clearer about conditionality had been misinterpreted by a small number of Jobcentre Plus offices who had imposed targets for the number of sanction referrals. These targets were immediately removed.
> 
> "We are clear that there is no wrong or right level of how many sanctions an office should make and they should only be made where people have not adhered to their jobseeker obligations. We have already taken rapid steps to reinforce this message to our staff. Ministers would not countenance any target for sanctioning customers."



Errr..... BOLLOCKS, there was NO misunderstanding, the targets were part of PA competencies and part of their annual review. Staff were hauled into offices to explain why they hadn't sanction their targets. Let's make NO mistake it's NO misunderstanding. Indeed only recently they accepted that there should be no individual target but instead an office target.... It's a bare faced lie and they know PCS and staff have the e-mail and written evidence to show this.



> "A few weeks ago ministers discovered that their message to be clearer about conditionality had been misinterpreted by a small number of Jobcentre Plus offices who had imposed targets for the number of sanction referrals. These targets were immediately removed.



No, what was removed-certainly in regards to staff in offices near where I work-was targets for individual members of staff, offices meanwhile, still had a target that staff were/expected to 'contribute to'. This isn't a lie so much as a rather evasive answer.



> "We are clear that there is no wrong or right level of how many sanctions an office should make and they should only be made where people have not adhered to their jobseeker obligations. We have already taken rapid steps to reinforce this message to our staff. Ministers would not countenance any target for sanctioning customers."



Well if there is no wrong or right level perhaps they can explain why staff have been criticised by managers for not hitting those levels? 
We are now in a position where targets 'do not exist' but where staff will be criticised for not achieving those non-existent targets, because, in all but name targets DO exist. Ministers DID countenance targets, knew they exosted, knew they were part of PA competencies and lied when asked about their existence.


----------



## ymu (Apr 8, 2011)

Broken of Britain are running  #tag campaign on Twitter for the next couple of days, for any clicktivists with a few seconds to spare.

#dwp45

#fitforwork


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## treelover (Apr 8, 2011)

will the PCS strike be partly about these conditions?


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## Fedayn (Apr 8, 2011)

treelover said:


> will the PCS strike be partly about these conditions?


 
The strike on 18th April? Not so much, however i'm pretty sure the increased attacks on sickness will have been part of the strike vote. These measures got worse yesterday when they arbitrarily removed extra days before disciplinary procedures begin for all those except those classed as disabled. However the definition of who is disabled and who makes that decision is as yet unexplained. The strike is about the minute time management of staff in these centres including the imposition of a certain amount of time to use the toilet.....


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## tar1984 (Apr 8, 2011)

Fedayn said:


> The strike is about the minute time management of staff in these centres including the imposition of a certain amount of time to use the toilet.....


 
Call-centres have had this for years.


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## Fedayn (Apr 8, 2011)

tar1984 said:


> Call-centres have had this for years.


 
Many in the private sector have yes, I used to work in one before I started in DWP.


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## tar1984 (Apr 8, 2011)

It's a total fucker.  Every second on a shift you have to type a code into the phone to account for your activites - too much time in one code and the managers are straight on you.  It's awful for morale and something worth striking for imo.  We never had strikes but that might be because everyone was on flimsy contracts rather than the union (CWU) being useless.  Anyway good luck with it all.


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## josef1878 (Apr 8, 2011)

tar1984 said:


> Call-centres have had this for years.


 
Some JCP call, sorry contact centre managers jump on people after 12 and a half minutes away from their desks for 'comfort' breaks. IN A WORKING DAY! So, if you've got the shits these days your fit enough to be at work but when you turn up we'll sack you for having a shit or two.


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## tar1984 (Apr 8, 2011)

josef1878 said:


> Some JCP call, sorry contact centre managers jump on people after 12 and a half minutes away from their desks for 'comfort' breaks. IN A WORKING DAY! So, if you've got the shits these days your fit enough to be at work but when you turn up we'll sack you for having a shit or two.



In places like ClientLogic/Sitel you are allowed 15mins per day in 'activity 9' code (toilet break) but realistically if you're in any 'not ready'* code for more than a few minutes they're straight over giving you hell.  

They have a full-time employee watching the screen and it starts flashing after 2mins to flag up anyone in not ready.

*Not ready = not taking calls.


----------



## RaverDrew (Apr 8, 2011)

Very interesting turn of events today. Fed, have heard very similar things btw from another PCS active member who is being very co-operative ;-)


----------



## BigTom (Apr 9, 2011)

ymu said:


> Broken of Britain are running  #tag campaign on Twitter for the next couple of days, for any clicktivists with a few seconds to spare.
> 
> #dwp45
> 
> #fitforwork



Some of these tweets are proper genius, well worth reading through, there's a strand of posts like "Narcoleptic? Get a job as a bed tester #fitforwork #dwp45" that ones a bit crap but I can't remember the really good ones, funny and sad at the same time.


The job centre stuff is making me angry this morning. fucking scum (not the staff, the management/politician).  Gonna try really hard to get the west mids IWW unemployed branch involved with your thing.  I've kept half an eye on this thread but please let me know what I can do, got school holidays over the next couple of weeks so can put some time into it.


----------



## rollinder (Apr 10, 2011)

just found this 
- http://www.bbc.co.uk/ouch/messageboards/NF2322273?thread=8149280&skip=0



			
				poster on ouch said:
			
		

> A Gurdian journalist is doing an article about those who have commited suicide, want to or feeel like they have no other option due to cuts etc


bbc deleted first post about this apparently

(thread mentions ational Day of Protest against Benefit Cuts & Troll a Tory day so words getting out)


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## treelover (Apr 10, 2011)

'bbc deleted first post about this apparently'

The BBC approach to the cuts, etc is very alarming, ITV News for example have been running really good in depth reports about the impact of the cuts every day last week, the BBC is not covering the cuts under any rubric at all, just occassional reprts...


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## treelover (Apr 10, 2011)

'Two die while waiting for Appeals:

www.inclusionscotlan... 

Blog by Sue Marsh

"Since I’ve started writing this blog, I’ve been shocked by how many sick or disabled people say they can’t go on. Not dramatically, but matter-of-factly. Time and time again. At least weekly, I’ve heard from people in despair, unable to go through another assessment or take yet another cut in their already meagre lifestyles." 

"I discovered this week that no-one actually keeps statistics into how much more likely sick or disabled people are to end their own lives. One NHS document reports that it is a “significant risk factor” but the ONS confirmed to me that they had no studies at all on record. With this in mind, if suicide does increase amongst this vulnerable group, no-one will know." 

liberalconspiracy.or... 


The Black Triangle Disability Protest group was formed as a result of the suicide of Paul Reekie, after having his IB and HB stopped

madpride.org.uk/foru... 

A death of a man who hanged himself after being given 0 points at a scond medical having only recently won a tribunal:

disabilitymessageboa... 

And of course the campaign posted on You Tube by Stu Wyatt to ask ATOS and Department of Health, what their euthansia options are:

www.abcofesa.co.uk/b... 

Disability AllianceConsultation on DLA Reform

"..disturbing number of disabled people saying they will kill themselves if their benefits are cut. Last month a poll for campaign group Disability Alliance, found that 9% of recipients said losing DLA "may make life not worth living".'


some powerful posts there..


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## yardbird (Apr 10, 2011)

Oh dear, I'm a workshy skiver 


The joys of MS
It's a beautiful day, the sun is shining, I think I'll go to the pub and sit reading the paper in the garden.
It's the first day I've felt mobile and not in too much pain for weeks, oh dear me, maybe I should make an effort to look as shit as I usually feel in case someone thinks I'm scamming.


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## treelover (Apr 10, 2011)

good for you, YB, enjoying the healing rays of the Sun is one of the joys of the world


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## Greebo (Apr 10, 2011)

AFAIK sunlight, fresh air and doing what makes you happy are all recognised as being good for people with MS - sod the DWP, IMHO any doctor would back you up on this one.

Go and get your treatment, Yardbird.


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## treelover (Apr 10, 2011)

aye...


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## ericjarvis (Apr 10, 2011)

Fedayn said:


> Ministers DID countenance targets, knew they exosted, knew they were part of PA competencies and lied when asked about their existence.


 
Ministers have made public statements about the fucking targets they were aiming for, so how they can claim targets weren't set is beyond me. Are we supposed to believe that when a government ministers stands up in the house of commons and claims the government has set a target of reducing the number of benefit claimants by X they are lying to Parliament and in fact when civil servants attempt to work to those publicly stated targets they are acting without authority. Or are we supposed to believe that government ministers react to discovering that they are directly responsible for causing suffering to many and death to a few by lying about it and blaming it on somebody else. Either way it's another proof that for the last few decades we have been governed by people who don't have sufficient moral principles to be allowed to clean the toilets in Parliament, let alone be MPs.


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## ericjarvis (Apr 10, 2011)

Fedayn said:


> Ministers DID countenance targets, knew they exosted, knew they were part of PA competencies and lied when asked about their existence.


 
Frank Field 16 June 1997

Lord Hunt 2 Mar 2006

Tory policy is to reduce the number of IB claimants by 120,000 a year. 8 Jan 2008

And so on. For as long as I can remember government ministers have told parliament and everyone else how they will reduce the number of people claiming benefit by this that or the other amount, BEFORE ASSESSING CLAIMANTS. Whether it's claiming they know how much fraud will be detected in JSA, or how many IB claimants will turn out to be fits for work, they make a big thing of publicly stating how much money they will save. Often they give quite precise figures of how many claimants they say will be coming off benefit. Are we now supposed to believe that they make these claims but give no instructions to the DWP about them?


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## ymu (Apr 11, 2011)

UK Uncut to pay the Daily Mail a visit:



> Join disability activists, benefit claimants groups and all decent right-thinking people outside the so called Daily Mail to demand Stop the Defamation - Stop the Lies.
> 
> The Daily Mail's chairperson is Viscount Rotheremere, a non-dom who avoids UK taxes on his vast wealth by claiming to live in France despite owning a £40 million house with a 220-acre estate in Wiltshire.
> 
> As part of the third National Day of Action Against Benefit Cuts a protest has been called outside the Daily Mail's head office in Kensington on 14th April 2011.


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## treelover (Apr 11, 2011)

I don't think this is a uncut event and I wonder how many uncutters will turn up, i hope to be pleasantly surprised...


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## tufty79 (Apr 17, 2011)

i'm in nottingham and saw this flyer - sorry for the poor pic quality :O the text is: 'mutual aid. Community cafe, benefits self-help, legal support, ideas for resistance.' it was held at the sumac centre, 245 gladstone rd, forest fields on 27 march and today apparently. Not sure if there'll be more....


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## Fedayn (May 4, 2011)

An interesting wee letter from Chris Grayling MP to DWP staff...... Remember Duncan-Smith said targets don't exist, he knows and it's a disgrace to claim it wellll....... Check the boldened bit. The big lie is thir claim to have only found out..... They have known ALL ALONG



> Dear colleague
> 
> I thought it was time that I wrote to you all to give you an update on progress with the welfare reforms and to thank you for your hard work throughout the last year. I appreciate how quickly you moved to introduce the measures to Get Britain Working and the good response to reducing unnecessary costs. I also wanted to give you some more information about how we hope things will develop in the months ahead. In particular I wanted to talk about your role in making the reforms a reality around the country.
> 
> ...


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## josef1878 (May 8, 2011)

Fedayn said:


> An interesting wee letter from Chris Grayling MP to DWP staff...... Remember Duncan-Smith said targets don't exist, he knows and it's a disgrace to claim it wellll....... Check the boldened bit. The big lie is thir claim to have only found out..... They have known ALL ALONG


 
Don't worry, this letter is already is already being used in 'performace reviews'. Necks are being wound in.


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## josef1878 (Jul 29, 2011)

Glitter said:


> I work in a jobcentre and it's true, there are a couple of utter cunts like that there.
> 
> However most of us are decent human beings who want to do the best we can to help people and fuck any targets around it.
> 
> Don't tar us all with the same brush please.



One less cunt today eh. Roll on next Friday then that's two cunts down. Still work to do........


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## Kate Hillier (Mar 8, 2012)

*Very disturbing and upsetting reading*.
 Up the Revolution is an *understatement of what is required and JUSTICE for these people/us who are going through it*


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## Kate Hillier (Mar 9, 2012)

And from the looks of it nice JC Staff!!


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## Infused (Mar 18, 2015)

Glitter said:


> I work in a jobcentre and it's true, there are a couple of utter cunts like that there.
> 
> However most of us are decent human beings who want to do the best we can to help people and fuck any targets around it.
> 
> Don't tar us all with the same brush please.



Hi looking for some advice, I was asked today to apply for a job by my advisor at the job centre, they said they would email me the application form and I had to complete and send it back via email by the close of yesterday. I was advised the vacancy was for home Bargains (store) Retail Assistant 20 hours a week. I returned the completed application form around 3:30pm. Later on in the evening I received an email back from a different job centre adviser with my normal advisor cc into the email. The email read thank you for submitting an application for a cleaner with Asda (facility management) you are invited to attend an interview Thursday at 1pm. I'm quite distressed about this as I have no pay details/working hours or have any idea of what this job will entail. This is not the vacancy I applied for as the application form has Home Bargains written all over it. I have kept a copy of the application form.   I'm worried that a) if I don't turn up for interview I will be sanctioned or b) are they allowed to do this?


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## Greebo (Mar 18, 2015)

Infused said:


> <snip> Later on in the evening I received an email back from a different job centre adviser with my normal advisor cc into the email. The email read thank you for submitting an application for a cleaner with Asda (facility management) you are invited to attend an interview Thursday at 1pm. I'm quite distressed about this as I have no pay details/working hours or have any idea of what this job will entail. This is not the vacancy I applied for as the application form has Home Bargains written all over it. I have kept a copy of the application form.   I'm worried that a) if I don't turn up for interview I will be sanctioned or b) are they allowed to do this?


(((infused))) That sounds extremely dodgy.  IMHO what you could reasonably do is attend the interview but explain during it that you thought you'd applied for a different job and there's been a muddle with the email sent to you.
a) I think you're right, you could be sanctioned for not turning up to an interview for a job you've been directed to apply for.
b) Whether the jobcentre are allowed to do this is beside the point - they've gone and done it.  Morallly dubious and IMHO unprofessional but that wouldn't stop some jobcentre etc staff trying it on like that.


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