# casual racism at work



## lolo (Sep 17, 2014)

so this morning a secretary was complaining about how one of her drs acted, another secretary said "is he asian?", the answer was yes, then she proceeded to say that was probably why he was like he was as Asian men are blah blah blah

I then said "you need to be careful about making these sorts of generalisations" (code for you are being racist stop it)

she then got in a massive strop with me.

a few minutes later i complained about a message on my phone where i couldn't understand the accent of the person - she called me a racist and walked out (the person who left me a message had a very strong geordie accent and was speaking very fast)

I am now sat here seething 

this happens all the time here


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## moon (Sep 17, 2014)

Maybe take her aside for a coffee and have a chat, it may clear the air and get you back to a more sustainable working relationship


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## DotCommunist (Sep 17, 2014)

key her motor


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## bmd (Sep 17, 2014)

Ask her if you offended her. If she says yes ask her why. She will say that some of her best friends are Asian.


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## story (Sep 17, 2014)

I have no idea. It's like the casual sexism thing too. If it's not abusive and overt and brazen, it somehow doesn't count as "real" bigotry.

I was at a party and I was sat with two women. Never met them before. One asked the other about her handbag, whether it was real or a copy. The handbag woman said that it was real, not knock off, her boyfriend's boss gets them, he's Jewish, you know what they're like. The other woman rolled her eyes and nodded and laughed and said "oh yes, yes!"

I said "That's not okay." They were both puzzled and weirded out. I tried to explain that making crass generalisations like that isn't okay. They said "We didn't mean to offend you, we didn't know you're Jewish." I told them that I'm not Jewish.

I tried to make my point by saying to them that I could make similar crass generalisations about blonde   Europeans with blingy handbags, or buxom Brazilian women.

So then they got really offended and complained to the host about me.

Another time I was in the pub with some mates, and a couple of mates of mates. One of the mate of a mate made a joke about fucking a girl of 17, cos 18 is too old (all of us are more than twice that age). So I reacted and said it was a bit off. The following discussion went into whether it was okay to make that joke if everyone knew each other and everyone knew it was meant as a joke, and if the relative non-mate ness of the joker had made the joke a bit off. I asked, if the joke was alright between friends, then maybe the attitude was also okay, so long as it's some of your best friends being creepy. In the end it was agreed that attitudes only change if they are challenged, and maybe it was up to all of us to say "that's not okay" every single time we encounter it.

But it's really fucking boring to be the only crusader in the room. It makes you look worthy and po-faced and fussy, because some people really do not see that what they're saying could possibly be considered bigoted or prejudiced at all.

So I don't know.

It was all the threads on here about sexism that made me decide to step up and say something every time. And you can't do that for one -ism without doing it for all of them. But I don't know whether it makes a difference or not.


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## bmd (Sep 17, 2014)

It is boring being the only crusader in the room but then the people who think you're worthy, po-faced and fussy are the ones who don't like having to think of themselves as having racist opinions. So their opinions of you don't count.


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## 8ball (Sep 17, 2014)

story said:


> I tried to make my point by saying to them that I could make similar crass generalisations about blonde   Europeans with blingy handbags, or buxom Brazilian women.
> 
> So then they got really offended and complained to the host about me.


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## ddraig (Sep 17, 2014)

lolo said:


> so this morning a secretary was complaining about how one of her drs acted, another secretary said "is he asian?", the answer was yes, then she proceeded to say that was probably why he was like he was as Asian men are blah blah blah
> 
> I then said "you need to be careful about making these sorts of generalisations" (code for you are being racist stop it)
> 
> ...


explain to them you made no generalistion and don't know or care what race the person who left the message is

what she said was different and what did she mean? what are they like? all of them? really?


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## trabuquera (Sep 17, 2014)

A reply along the lines of : " Yes, maybe I am a snob and a regionalist. But YOU are a bit of a racist - and what's worse, you won't even admit to it".


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## astral (Sep 17, 2014)

story said:


> But it's really fucking boring to be the only crusader in the room. It makes you look worthy and po-faced and fussy, because some people really do not see that what they're saying could possibly be considered bigoted or prejudiced at all.
> 
> So I don't know.





bmd said:


> It is boring being the only crusader in the room but then the people who think you're worthy, po-faced and fussy are the ones who don't like having to think of themselves as having racist opinions. So their opinions of you don't count.



It may be boring being the only crusader in the room, but it's a damn sight better than not knowing if there's a woman/man/jewish person in the room who is desperately uncomfortable but not confident enough to stand up for themselves.

Two of the guys who work for me were talking amongst themselves the other day and one told the other to "stop being such a fucking girl".  I told them not to use sex as a pejorative term and that it wasn't ok

Two things came out of this
1- they both now know what pejorative means and that causal sexism won't be tolerated in the department
2 - one of the juniors from the accounting department came and thanked me for it later on and told me that the chat from my department had been making her feel uncomfortable and that she hadn't felt she could stand up to it. 

So yeah - I'd rather be seen as the angry feminist in IT who can't take a joke if it means that someone else learns that it's ok to stand up for themselves.


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## ViolentPanda (Sep 17, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> key her motor



You should only do this if she's wearing a British Movement tee-shirt, though.


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## Buddy Bradley (Sep 17, 2014)

bmd said:


> It is boring being the only crusader in the room but then the people who think you're worthy, po-faced and fussy are the ones who don't like having to think of themselves as having racist opinions. So their opinions of you don't count.


  

I think it depends a lot on your relationship with the other people in the room. I feel able to slap down dickish behaviour at work because I'm relatively senior, but in public its much harder to overcome your natural inclination to keep your head down and not draw attention to yourself.


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## bmd (Sep 17, 2014)

And, lets be brutally honest here, who the fuck can understand a Geordie at full pelt?


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## Orang Utan (Sep 17, 2014)

What is casual racism?


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## SpookyFrank (Sep 17, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> What is casual racism?



The kind of racism that is rooted in good humour and does no harm. See also: the Easter Bunny.


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## CNT36 (Sep 17, 2014)

It's a bit like slavery but in jeans.


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## Orang Utan (Sep 17, 2014)

Casual bigotry


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## DotCommunist (Sep 17, 2014)

bmd said:


> And, lets be brutally honest here, who the fuck can understand a Geordie at full pelt?




I can. I can also parse patois done at full pelt, heavily vernacular scots and irish accents/creoles. Mainly because I wash my ears regularly.


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## killer b (Sep 17, 2014)

is the easter bunny racist?


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## Orang Utan (Sep 17, 2014)

No, but he clearly has identity issues


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## DotCommunist (Sep 17, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> No, but he clearly has identity issues




she


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## Mation (Sep 17, 2014)

I went on a first aid course a few weeks ago with a group of people from several different organisations. One guy started asking a string of offensive questions to the trainer about what he termed "pikeys".

I was perhaps a bit more free to say something with impunity as I didn't work with them, but I didn't want to start a big row, so I just said, in a very matter of fact way, that I really object to the term pikey. And thankfully he apologised and rephrased it (and then was slapped down by the trainer as the whole premise was dodgy).

I'm now 8 days into a new job and so on probation. The people are fairly good natured but I can see that there's potential for a bit of conflict ('mild' comments about celebrities' weight; describing the volunteer as 'special' with a particular look)... So far I've restricted myself to changing my facial expression from interested to blank, but I can't not say something if it gets much worse. Hopefully my first aid course approach will suffice for both making a point and keeping my job. We shall see!


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## lolo (Sep 19, 2014)

i also hear drs here with cut glass accents referring to the local population (who they are here to treat) as "chavs"

The racist lady isn't speaking to me... shame


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## pengaleng (Sep 19, 2014)

fuck her up.


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## Poot (Sep 19, 2014)

My manager is so odd that even his casual racism leaves you asking yourself whether it really just happened.

For example, when I told him that my son was going to be a wise man in the school nativity, he seemed to think that he would enjoy using chocolate to "black up". I assured him that he would not be "blacking up"  and left, asking myself whether that really just happened...


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## tony heath (Sep 19, 2014)

When racism is accepted and racists aren't disturbed their lives run like clockwork, the clockworkness of their minds is dangerous and needs disassembling


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## sim667 (Sep 22, 2014)

My colleague often makes comments about students from different backgrounds, or their weights..... I've got "the look" down to a T now.

Ironically like most teachers she's very tolerant, just a bit outspoken and sometimes phrases things wrong.


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## ringo (Sep 22, 2014)

Ten minutes after reading this thread on Friday afternoon I went get a cuppa with some colleagues and they started a racist rant about the treatment of women under "Arab law" which they considered a reasonable anti-mysogynist response to their misreading of the news that those teenagers had been convicted of making a video to Happy and been lashed and then imprisoned. They finished with "And if they heard us they'd call us racists". 

Sometimes I challenge them, sometimes I don't. Makes no difference.


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## DemolitionRed (Sep 30, 2014)

What gets me is, when people make some flippant poor taste comment and no one else seems the slightest bit taken aback. 

People who know me and mine know to stay well away from certain subjects. Whilst I can't stop them being racist, I/We won't allow such discussions in our house, but even people who don't consider themselves a racist or a bigot will laugh and join in a joke about chavs. I make myself unpopular by breaking into the laughter to ask, "How has hatred of working-class people become so socially acceptable?"


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## stereotypical (Oct 1, 2014)

I used to work in a well know retail outlet and the casual/outright racism was shocking.  Got to a point where I was considering blowing them all up and secretly voice recording managers being racist.  Wouldnt have been hard to catch them in the act as it was prolific.  In the end I left, not purely because of that but because it was a shite job I hated anyway.

Wish I had of blown the whistle now as there was some truly nasty racist bullies working there at the time.

This was before the whole 'rise of UKIP' era before it apparently became ok to start being racist again.


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## dylanredefined (Oct 1, 2014)

Surprisingly very little and mostly in the form of bad taste jokes where people know they shouldn't be telling them. Which from an organisation that though paki  or paddy bashing was an acceptable past time in the 80's I guess that is an improvement.


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## MarkyMarrk (Feb 1, 2016)

Went to my new workplace to be introduced to some people today. I'm not strictly supposed to be doing this because of gardening leave.

I got called a 'brother' by a new white colleague. It's a long time since I've had that one. I'll remind him of it when I know him and he'll be embarrassed or will be a proper racist. We'll see.


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## Teenage Cthulhu (Feb 2, 2016)

It is possible he thought he was being friendly or ironic or something. Was he quite young?


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## Magnus McGinty (Feb 2, 2016)

Or a trade unionist?


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## Throbbing Angel (Feb 2, 2016)

Are you a Monk?


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## catinthehat (Feb 2, 2016)

http://www.ici.is/assets/ERAW_-_Everyday_racism_in_the_workplace.pdf	  We did some research into casual/everyday racism.  You could ask for it to be addressed when/if you have staff training.


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## moon (Feb 2, 2016)

catinthehat said:


> http://www.ici.is/assets/ERAW_-_Everyday_racism_in_the_workplace.pdf	  We did some research into casual/everyday racism.  You could ask for it to be addressed when/if you have staff training.


Thanks, that was really useful


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## kabbes (Feb 2, 2016)

MarkyMarrk said:


> Went to my new workplace to be introduced to some people today. I'm not strictly supposed to be doing this because of gardening leave.
> 
> I got called a 'brother' by a new white colleague. It's a long time since I've had that one. I'll remind him of it when I know him and he'll be embarrassed or will be a proper racist. We'll see.


Did this happen?


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## MarkyMarrk (Feb 2, 2016)

No, I just made it up. I was making it up to make a point about.... I've no idea.


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## The Boy (Feb 2, 2016)

MarkyMarrk said:


> No, I just made it up.



Thought as much.


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## two sheds (Feb 2, 2016)

Yep, not a very honest poster. 

I was expecting a link to a "brilliant" article that actually said the opposite of what he claimed it said, just to annoy the lefties.


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## MarkyMarrk (Feb 2, 2016)

Don't be idiots. There's more than a hint of racism about assuming that a report of racism didn't happen because you weren't there. 
Or perhaps you don't think it was racist. 
I presume you're not black.


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## J Ed (Feb 2, 2016)

I believe that idiots might use this term, the other day I heard someone at work refer to 'the Dagos'. WTF?


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## two sheds (Feb 2, 2016)

MarkyMarrk said:


> Don't be idiots. There's more than a hint of racism about assuming that a report of racism didn't happen because you weren't there.
> Or perhaps you don't think it was racist.
> I presume you're not black.



And now the accusations of racism, was only a matter of time to wind up the lefties. 

No, I assume that a report of racism didn't happen because you said it didn't happen. 



MarkyMarrk said:


> No, I just made it up. I was making it up to make a point about.... I've no idea.


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## MarkyMarrk (Feb 2, 2016)

I was being sarcastic in reply to the person who said 'did this happen'. Hence the 'no idea'.


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## two sheds (Feb 2, 2016)

... or you had no idea what point you were making when you made it up.

See the other threads you've appeared on for how honest you are as a poster.


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## MarkyMarrk (Feb 2, 2016)

two sheds said:


> ... or you had no idea what point you were making when you made it up.


Now trying to tell me what I meant. This is weird behaviour.


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## two sheds (Feb 2, 2016)

MarkyMarrk said:


> This is weird behaviour.



Stop doing it then.


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## Winot (Feb 2, 2016)

kabbes said:


> Did this happen?



Come on, do you really think someone would invent this? That's a pretty strong accusation.


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## Sapphireblue (Feb 2, 2016)

Winot said:


> Come on, do you really think someone would invent this? That's a pretty strong accusation.



He's a massive bull-shitter though. The judgement is on the poster and unrelated to the topic so not as strong as it may seem.


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## kabbes (Feb 2, 2016)

Winot said:


> Come on, do you really think someone would invent this? That's a pretty strong accusation.


I think an obvious troll with a penchant for making inflammatory remarks and watching the fall-out would make up a story to provoke a reaction, yes.


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## Winot (Feb 2, 2016)

Hmm. He has trolling form I agree but I think you've got to be pretty certain before calling bullshit on this. My reading across the boards is attention seeker rather than liar but I could be wrong.


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## kabbes (Feb 2, 2016)

Winot said:


> Hmm. He has trolling form I agree but I think you've got to be pretty certain before calling bullshit on this. My reading across the boards is attention seeker rather than liar but I could be wrong.


Total fantasist, as far as I can tell.


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## two sheds (Feb 2, 2016)

He likes trolling the lefties. I'm sure Jonathan Bishop has a classification just for him.


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## eoin_k (Feb 2, 2016)

I'm getting to grips with the ignore poster function - in the hope that it will encourage me to spend less time baiting arseholes - and, I have to say, trying to decipher the last page with MarkyMarrk on ignore has been challenging.


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## Gromit (Feb 2, 2016)

MarkyMarrk said:


> I got called a 'brother' by a new white colleague.



Forgive my ignorance but I can't actually see how that even makes it into a sentence. What exactly did he say please?

This is Mark, he's a brother. 
Here's my brotheir Mark. 

Was it the full word brother or like the London Bruh. No Bruv I swear down this is 'im... Mark.


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## ViolentPanda (Feb 3, 2016)

two sheds said:


> He likes trolling the lefties. I'm sure Jonathan Bishop has a classification just for him.



FFS don't mention Bonathan Jizzmop! He's like a third-rate Candyman!!!


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## friedaweed (Feb 3, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> FFS don't mention Bonathan Jizzmop! He's like a third-rate Candyman!!!





> I am the chief executive officer of Action on Digital Addiction and Cyberstalking,...It was me that devised the trolling magnitude scale,



http://www.jonathanbishop._break_ com/

You're off the scale now Panda


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## MarkyMarrk (Feb 3, 2016)

Gromit said:


> Forgive my ignorance but I can't actually see how that even makes it into a sentence. What exactly did he say please?
> 
> This is Mark, he's a brother.
> Here's my brotheir Mark.
> ...



It was a longer version of 'nice to meet you, brother'. 
It's casually racist because I don't believe people say that to a white person.


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## J Ed (Feb 3, 2016)

MarkyMarrk said:


> It was a longer version of 'nice to meet you, brother'.
> It's casually racist because I don't believe people say that to a white person.



Weirdly I was called 'bro' and 'brother' today by a customer in the shop I work in and I am white, the customer was very white, I don't recall ever being called that before in my life though.


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## Gromit (Feb 3, 2016)

MarkyMarrk said:


> It was a longer version of 'nice to meet you, brother'.
> It's casually racist because I don't believe people say that to a white person.


I've been called Bruv, Cuzz but not yet been called Fam. 
Same thing just abbreviated.


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## MarkyMarrk (Feb 3, 2016)

J Ed said:


> Weirdly I was called 'bro' and 'brother' today by a customer in the shop I work in and I am white, the customer was very white, I don't recall ever being called that before in my life though.


Interesting. I think it unlikely it was similar, but it's possible he'll be embarrassed when I get to know him and remind him.


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## MarkyMarrk (Feb 3, 2016)

Gromit said:


> I've been called Bruv, Cuzz but not yet been called Fam.
> Same thing just abbreviated.


No, it's really different. It's something that is said because it's assumed that black people call each other 'brothers'. I don't even know the origin, but it's not said to just anyone. Though J Ed suggests that it was said to him, which is weird.


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## Gromit (Feb 3, 2016)

MarkyMarrk said:


> it's assumed that black people call each other 'brothers'.



No they don't. 
Well not unless they've time traveled from 1970's America. 
Was he wearing flares?


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## spanglechick (Feb 3, 2016)

I have a youngish colleague (late twenties) who calls all our male colleagues "brother", on a fairly regular basis.   He's a bit of a geezer-type.  He, and all the men in our faculty, are white.


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## Gromit (Feb 4, 2016)

I'm wondering if he was a big unionist. 
Thats the only time I think I've ever heard the term brother bandied around and even then they were only half serious.


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## kabbes (Feb 4, 2016)

He wasn't a unionist because he doesn't exist.


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## flypanam (Feb 4, 2016)

When I was working in NZ a few years ago, calling someone Bro, Cuzzy even Fam is pretty normal, whatever their background, well maybe not the farmers of a certain age. Just another way of saying mate.

As for casual work place racism I get 'Top o' the morning to ya' every day from one particular colleague. It's a little painful, but back when I started here, she stuck up for me when I got into some issues with someone else and so I let it slide.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 4, 2016)

kabbes said:


> He wasn't a unionist because he doesn't exist.




Cynical kabbes is cynical. 

I for one believe every word Marky says and have already signed up for a room in his house, I'm having the one near the swimming pool


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## Magnus McGinty (Feb 4, 2016)

Conclusion: you can't simultaneously be a wind up merchant and a black person.


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## Thimble Queen (Feb 4, 2016)

MarkyMarrk said:


> It was a longer version of 'nice to meet you, brother'.
> It's casually racist because I don't believe people say that to a white person.



Perhaps the 'white guy' is Muslim and thought you might be one too?


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## Magnus McGinty (Feb 4, 2016)

Isn't it bad form to brush off someone's experience of racism or rationalise it on their behalf?


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 4, 2016)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Isn't it bad form to brush off someone's experience of racism or rationalise it on their behalf?



Not what that someone is a compulsive bullshitter.


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## Gromit (Feb 4, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Not what that someone is a compulsive bullshitter.


We're in cyberspace. Shit don't have to be real to be discussed here. 

Plus even if someone has form for bullshitting doesn't mean they are always bullshitting.


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## Gromit (Feb 4, 2016)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Isn't it bad form to brush off someone's experience of racism or rationalise it on their behalf?


You were just racist to me. With that post. 

Now according to your own own post its bad form for you to brush this off or rationalise it because it's my experience of racism.


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## MarkyMarrk (Feb 4, 2016)

Casual racism on the casual racism thread. The irony.


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## xes (Feb 4, 2016)

flypanam said:


> When I was working in NZ a few years ago, calling someone Bro, Cuzzy even Fam is pretty normal, whatever their background, well maybe not the farmers of a certain age. Just another way of saying mate.
> 
> As for casual work place racism I get 'Top o' the morning to ya' every day from one particular colleague. It's a little painful, but back when I started here, she stuck up for me when I got into some issues with someone else and so I let it slide.


Take her to 1 side and just gently tell her that it's actually quite offensive, and you cringe everytime she says it. She probably has no idea that she's upsetting you. 

 I've been on a simular trip at my work. Lots of arsenal fans there, I'm the only spurs lad. I have had so fucking much anti jew shit it's beyond a joke. I let it slide, I even went through a small phase of countering it with the most horrendous Jew jokes I could find on the net, which made it stop for a while. They had a joke a day for the run until Christmass. They found it funny, I found them finding it funny very sad indeed. One of them has a photo of him and Tommy Robinson at a Luton match. (He's a goon, but he's also part mig) He was so proud showing it off to everyone. Until he showed me and I ripped the twat to shreds. Between football fans though, it'd classed as banter, and not cuntism. I happen to dissagree, and I know full well that managment will come down on them hard if I complained, so I'll keep that on the back burner just in case it gets nasty.


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## Magnus McGinty (Feb 4, 2016)

Gromit said:


> You were just racist to me. With that post.
> 
> Now according to your own own post its bad form for you to brush this off or rationalise it because it's my experience of racism.



Where did I brush it off or rationalise it?


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## Magnus McGinty (Feb 4, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Not what that someone is a compulsive bullshitter.



So racism is acceptable if you believe the recipient is a fantasist?


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 4, 2016)

Magnus McGinty said:


> So racism is acceptable if you believe the recipient is a fantasist?



Yes, yes that's exactly what I said. You have some kind of gift of second sight or something?


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## Magnus McGinty (Feb 4, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Yes, yes that's exactly what I said. You have some kind of gift of second sight or something?



Why would I need special powers given you've just admitted that's what you said?


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 4, 2016)

Yes I did, cos it confuses the terminally hard of thinking.


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## Magnus McGinty (Feb 4, 2016)

There's nothing confusing about the trajectory you're going down here. You're dismissing someone disclosing their experience of racism based on your assumption that they're lying about their skin colour. Now, although unsupportive of the OP, and I'm sure you have your reasons for this, I do hope you don't volunteer for the Samaritans or anything.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 4, 2016)

Magnus McGinty said:
			
		

> You're dismissing someone disclosing their experience of racism based on your assumption that they're lying about their skin colour.



No I'm not you stupid berk.


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## Magnus McGinty (Feb 4, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> No I'm not you stupid berk.



Maybe you owe them an apology then?


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 4, 2016)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Maybe you owe them an apology then?



Oh do fuck off, regardless of what colour this cunt claims to be today, he did not start a new job and a colleague come up and say, "how do you do, brother"

It just didn't happen.

He's talking shit.

Again.

The piss-poor troll takes in cretins like you, but his bullshit can do actual harm to those who really do face discrimination in the workplace and elsewhere.


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## Magnus McGinty (Feb 4, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Oh do fuck off, regardless of what colour this cunt claims to be today, he did not start a new job and a colleague come up and say, "how do you do, brother"
> 
> It just didn't happen.
> 
> ...



Dismissing racism on spurious grounds does untold damage to those disclosing it and lowers confidence towards people who want to ally with them in challenging it.
I find it interesting that you think I'm a 'cretin' for simply wanting to take a disclosure of racism seriously.


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## kabbes (Feb 4, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Oh do fuck off, regardless of what colour this cunt claims to be today, he did not start a new job and a colleague come up and say, "how do you do, brother"
> 
> It just didn't happen.
> 
> ...


Either that or you're now talking to a troll's sock puppet...


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 4, 2016)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I find it interesting that you think I'm a 'cretin' for simply wanting to take a disclosure of racism seriously.



Really? That's nice for you. Would you care to follow up you interest in a more formal manner?


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## Magnus McGinty (Feb 4, 2016)

kabbes said:


> Either that or you're now talking to a troll's sock puppet...



Being anti-racist is trolling on here?


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## Magnus McGinty (Feb 4, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Really? That's nice for you. Would you care to follow up you interest in a more formal manner?



Over dinner? What does this mean?


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 4, 2016)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Over dinner? What does this mean?



If something interests you so much, surely it's normal to look deeper in to the subject. I look forward to you essay on the subject.


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## ViolentPanda (Feb 4, 2016)

MarkyMarrk said:


> It was a longer version of 'nice to meet you, brother'.
> It's casually racist because I don't believe people say that to a white person.



If you haven't, then you may need a hearing aid, or to live somewhere more multi-cultural than Cambs, because I hear that all the time from locals, black and white, here in that there London.


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## Magnus McGinty (Feb 4, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> If something interests you so much, surely it's normal to look deeper in to the subject. I look forward to you essay on the subject.



This is a bulletin board not a submission centre for post grads. I happened to like the site's professed policy against racism and support for those opposing it. I assumed there'd be a warm welcome for those of that ilk. I had no idea there was a whole security team of dogs roaming and ready to pounce demanding long write ups of anti-racist analysis following them expressing some solidarity with a victim of it.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 4, 2016)

J Ed said:


> Weirdly I was called 'bro' and 'brother' today by a customer in the shop I work in and I am white, the customer was very white, I don't recall ever being called that before in my life though.



Aren't you up in the wilds, though (i.e. beyond Brum)? Slang seems to creep northward. It's how we can tell people are northerners even when they've lost their accents.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 4, 2016)

MarkyMarrk said:


> Casual racism on the casual racism thread. The irony.



The real irony is that you refer to something that even you perceive to be rare, as "casual racism". Having lived through a period of history (sixties to eighties) when racism was rife in everyday word and deed, I'm not sure anyone under the age of 30 knows what "casual racism" really is, at least not by the definition it usually goes by - i.e. so common that people commit it casually.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 4, 2016)

Magnus McGinty said:


> So racism is acceptable if you believe the recipient is a fantasist?



Don't put words in his mouth, there's a good chap.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 4, 2016)

Magnus McGinty said:


> This is a bulletin board not a submission centre for post grads. I happened to like the site's professed policy against racism and support for those opposing it. I assumed there'd be a warm welcome for those of that ilk. I had no idea there was a whole security team of dogs roaming and ready to pounce demanding long write ups of anti-racist analysis following them expressing some solidarity with a victim of it.



Well now you know the score why not piss off until you learn how to read?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Feb 4, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> Don't put words in his mouth, there's a good chap.



Well he said the OP was "bullshitting". Now, in the context of this thread it can only mean he's bullshitting either about his race, the accusation of racism, or both.

I completely accept that I may have put words in his mouth which was wrong of me but, given the options, none of them place him in a good light. Which do you think he meant? Given he gets irate and demands I date him or write an essay rather than wanting to discuss it.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Feb 4, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Well now you know the score why not piss off until you learn how to read?



What did I misunderstand?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 4, 2016)

Magnus McGinty said:


> What did I misunderstand?





The racist incident you accuse me of belittling DID NOT HAPPEN.

Are there any other things that didn't happen that concern you?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 4, 2016)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Well he said the OP was "bullshitting". Now, in the context of this thread it can only mean he's bullshitting either about his race, the accusation of racism, or both.
> 
> I completely accept that I may have put words in his mouth which was wrong of me but, given the options, none of them place him in a good light. Which do you think he meant? Given he gets irate and demands I date him or write an essay rather than wanting to discuss it.



I think that if you first consider that your interpretations of what he's said are over-literal, then you might be able to see for yourself what he meant.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Feb 4, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> The racist incident you accuse me of belittling DID NOT HAPPEN.
> 
> Are there any other things that didn't happen that concern you?



How do you know this? If a woman were to approach you saying she'd been attacked would you loudly declare:

THIS DID NOT HAPPEN?

Of course you wouldn't. So what's your problem with black men?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Feb 4, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> I think that if you first consider that your interpretations of what he's said are over-literal, then you might be able to see for yourself what he meant.



Don't be cryptic.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 4, 2016)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Don't be cryptic.



I'm not being cryptic.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 4, 2016)

Magnus McGinty said:


> How do you know this? If a woman were to approach you saying she'd been attacked would you loudly declare:
> 
> THIS DID NOT HAPPEN?
> 
> Of course you wouldn't. So what's your problem with black men?



If it were a woman known to you for "crying wolf" and making shit up, would *you* believe her unreservedly? Hmm?


----------



## story (Feb 4, 2016)

Magnus McGinty said:


> How do you know this? If a woman were to approach you saying she'd been attacked would you loudly declare:
> 
> THIS DID NOT HAPPEN?
> 
> Of course you wouldn't. So what's your problem with black men?




He's got form for this.

[URL="http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/jimmy-savile-dead.283362/page-7#post-10589599"]Jimmy Savile dead[/URL]


----------



## story (Feb 4, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> If it were a woman known to you for "crying wolf" and making shit up, would *you* believe her unreservedly? Hmm?




I'd venture to give them the benefit of the doubt, ViolentPanda .


----------



## Teenage Cthulhu (Feb 4, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> I'm not sure anyone under the age of 30 knows what "casual racism" really is



Lets ask shall we.

Where's this casual racism gone then, are we suddenly no longer casually racist?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 4, 2016)

Teenage Cthulhu said:


> Lets ask shall we.



You've selectively edited my post, removing the bit where I defined what the term is generally accepted by over-30s to mean. 
Your reason for doing so wouldn't be anything to do with you attempting to ask a question that isn't related to what I originally said, would it?
Because I do so hate disingenuous cuntluggery.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 4, 2016)

story said:


> I'd venture to give them the benefit of the doubt, ViolentPanda .



So would I, which is why I asked whether he'd believe her *unreservedly*, rather than just asking "would you believe her?".


----------



## Teenage Cthulhu (Feb 4, 2016)

OK here is the whole quote:

" Having lived through a period of history (sixties to eighties) when racism was rife in everyday word and deed, I'm not sure anyone under the age of 30 knows what "casual racism" really is, at least not by the definition it usually goes by - i.e. so common that people commit it casually."

I am going to go out on a limb here and say that a person of colour is going to experience casual racism everyday sometimes so insidious they themselves don't notice it.  So again, where has this casual racism gone? I think the best way to solve this would be by asking a person of colour of their experiences. Not to mention the subtext of this is telling Marky that what he suffered is not casual racism.

There's something unpleasant about all of this and I am off.


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## story (Feb 4, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> So would I, which is why I asked whether he'd believe her *unreservedly*, rather than just asking "would you believe her?".




The Hmmm? that you put in there implied some kind of disdain to me.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 4, 2016)

story said:


> The Hmmm? that you put in there implied some kind of disdain to me.



For the over-literal poster, not for the woman.
Oh, and it was a Hmm. Two "m"s, not three.


----------



## MarkyMarrk (Feb 4, 2016)

Teenage Cthulhu said:


> a person of colour



I really can't stand this term.


----------



## Teenage Cthulhu (Feb 4, 2016)

It is better than "POC".


----------



## moon (Feb 4, 2016)

It depends on the intent behind the comment, which we will never know.
Racial bullying is not ok and the poster may have been sensitised to it by previous experiences.
The colleague may have been being friendy, they could also have been pointing out a perceived difference.
The poster should keep a note of it, get on with their job and if another incidence occurs with the same person then report it.
There are a lot of online resources containing guidelines for recording, reporting and dealing with bullying which an online search can uncover.


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## ViolentPanda (Feb 4, 2016)

Teenage Cthulhu said:


> OK here is the whole quote:
> 
> " Having lived through a period of history (sixties to eighties) when racism was rife in everyday word and deed, I'm not sure anyone under the age of 30 knows what "casual racism" really is, at least not by the definition it usually goes by - i.e. so common that people commit it casually."
> 
> I am going to go out on a limb here and say that a person of colour is going to experience casual racism everyday sometimes so insidious they themselves don't notice it.  So again, where has this casual racism gone? I think the best way to solve this would be by asking a person of colour of their experiences. Not to mention the subtext of this is telling Marky that what he suffered is not casual racism.



No, the subtext is that he's a fantasist white male, who's been banned several times previously for posting stuff that he can then hypocrisy-hunt the replies to. So far, every thread he's posted has been on a "button-pushing" subject.
And no-one has said that a black male being addressed as "brother" can't be racist (casual or otherwise) in some contexts, merely that it's a) a term used in some places (I can only speak for my corner of the Metropolis) by males of varied ethnic derivations to greet/address other males of varied ethnic derivations.

The *text* is that he's a black male who experiences casual racism "...so insidious they themselves don't notice it".



> There's something unpleasant about all of this and I am off.



Great, throw accusations around, then piss off. Very classy!


----------



## MarkyMarrk (Feb 4, 2016)

moon said:


> It depends on the intent behind the comment, which we will never know.
> Racial bullying is not ok and the poster may have been sensitised to it by previous experiences.
> The colleague may have been being friendy, they could also have been pointing out a perceived difference.
> The poster should keep a note of it, get on with their job and if another incidence occurs with the same person then report it.
> There are a lot of online resources containing guidelines for recording, reporting and dealing with bullying which an online search can uncover.


It wasn't bullying. I agree with your 4th sentence.


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## MarkyMarrk (Feb 4, 2016)

Casual racism is only casual racism if I don't notice it? 
But others on the thread do notice it?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 4, 2016)

MarkyMarrk said:


> I really can't stand this term.



It's gone in and out of fashion trans-Atlantically several times in the last 6 decades, possibly because it's so amorphous.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 4, 2016)

MarkyMarrk said:


> Casual racism is only casual racism if I don't notice it?
> But others on the thread do notice it?



No, casual racism implies it's a commonplace everyday act of racism. You haven't stated that it's commonplace everyday act you're subjected to, so it's the "casual" part of the claim that's being questioned, at least in my post #96.


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## MarkyMarrk (Feb 4, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> No, casual racism implies it's a commonplace everyday act of racism. You haven't stated that it's commonplace everyday act you're subjected to, so it's the "casual" part of the claim that's being questioned, at least in my post #96.


So if someone shouts the N word at me daily it's casual racism because it is common?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 4, 2016)

MarkyMarrk said:


> So if someone shouts the N word at me daily it's casual racism because it is common?



"Commonplace" implies that it's done by a majority. Daily by one person just means that the shouter is an ignorant racist cunt that you should have chinned the first time he shouted it.

When I was fostered for a short time by a Muslim couple in the '70s (their son was a mate), casual racism meant that they got referred to as "Pakis" every day, by the majority of people, and that my black mates got referred to as "coons", "nignogs", "wogs" and "niggers" every day by the majority of people, and that my HK Chinese mates got referred to as "Chinkies", and only a minority of us (mostly because we were working class, and in the "front line" of NF and British Movement recruitment areas, rather than because we were middle-class liberals) saw anything wrong with it.


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## MarkyMarrk (Feb 4, 2016)

Teenage Cthulhu said:


> It is better than "POC".


Sort of. 

Being Black is a big part of my life and defines me. As does being a British male.  I am a Christian, a young proud man, British and black. One of my parents is from Trinidad. 

I am not one random in a sea of colour. I celebrate my heritage and my person and others do too. Dividing the world in half on the basis of colour is what happens if I refer to myself as a Person of Colour (PoC).

I refuse to allow my skin colour to be the single thing that makes me, me.
I refuse to allow others to say I am different to white people.
I refuse to allow people to reduce my religion and ethnicity to be sub-headings in describing me.
I refuse to think in terms of 'us' and 'them'.
I refuse to implicitly demand bi-racial people decide between being a PoC and White
I refuse to frame problems exclusively in terms of a colour divide.

All nations and tribes should be acknowledged. My ethnicity should be acknowledged, as should others. My religion should be, as should others or those with none. I want my rich heritage acknowledged. This can't be done in a world framed as PoCs and white people.

Different ethnic races end up studied as a homogenous mass as if the thing that binds us is not being white. 

We also face the danger of losing sight of the fact that the group who are most poverty stricken are actually white, working class, and especially the plight of their children. By focusing only on the problems faced by PoC we are in danger of leaving these white children behind. 

People who object to the term PoC are told they don’t know or understand structural racism. That somehow by rejecting the term, we reject the idea that structural racism exists. More arrant nonsense.

People objecting to being labelled as PoC are told that they are somehow in favour or colluding with the colonial past. People don’t seem to realise that as soon as they say any of the above, they have effectively lost the argument.

If people want to describe themselves as PoC then that is their choice and right to do so. It's not for me. 

Finally, PoC reminds me of coloured and I won't have it used for or to describe me. Thanks.


----------



## MarkyMarrk (Feb 4, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> "Commonplace" implies that it's done by a majority. Daily by one person just means that the shouter is an ignorant racist cunt that you should have chinned the first time he shouted it.
> 
> When I was fostered for a short time by a Muslim couple in the '70s (their son was a mate), casual racism meant that they got referred to as "Pakis" every day, by the majority of people, and that my black mates got referred to as "coons", "nignogs", "wogs" and "niggers" every day by the majority of people, and that my HK Chinese mates got referred to as "Chinkies", and only a minority of us (mostly because we were working class, and in the "front line" of NF and British Movement recruitment areas, rather than because we were middle-class liberals) saw anything wrong with it.



Why get all the racist terms in there? What was the point in that? Why not say 'racist terms'?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 5, 2016)

MarkyMarrk said:


> Why get all the racist terms in there? What was the point in that? Why not say 'racist terms'?



Because they happened. To say "racist terms" and euphemisms like "the P-word" and "the N-word" demeans the person/people/culture being insulted by sweeping reality under the rug. Those terms are part of a discourse that takes away the agency of those people being called names, while denying them the opportunity to reclaim those words. 
It's exactly the same sort of mealy-mouthed stuff as the "PoC" phrase you say that you hate. Back in the day, the term was "black", regardless of your shade, and that was a badge worn proudly by "Africans", "Afro-Caribbeans", "South Asians" and others.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 5, 2016)

BTW, MarkyMarrk , there's no such thing as an "ethnic race".


----------



## krink (Feb 5, 2016)

Over the last 15 - 20 years I nearly lost my job and my health many times arguing with colleagues about race/sexism/crime/everything political or moral. I really don't think some people realise how isolated people with progressive/left/whatever views are in normal working class life. there's a tiny band of us at work - maybe three or four out of 70. I'm the only person in my extended family who isn't racist etc. people say less shit stuff openly now because it's frowned upon by authorities but their repulsive views are all still intact.

well, that's my experience. no doubt i'll be wrong here too...


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## ViolentPanda (Feb 5, 2016)

krink said:


> Over the last 15 - 20 years I nearly lost my job and my health many times arguing with colleagues about race/sexism/crime/everything political or moral. I really don't think some people realise how isolated people with progressive/left/whatever views are in normal working class life. there's a tiny band of us at work - maybe three or four out of 70. I'm the only person in my extended family who isn't racist etc. people say less shit stuff openly now because it's frowned upon by authorities but their repulsive views are all still intact.
> 
> well, that's my experience. no doubt i'll be wrong here too...



I don't think you're wrong - racism has definitely become more "nudge nudge, wink wink", rather than more open, but I also think that fewer kids are inculcated with this shit than 30-40-50 years ago, and not just because it's repulsive, but because so many more kids, even out in the sticks, grow up in multi-ethnic environments nowadays.

Also, lets be honest with ourselves and each other: We all know that racism isn't going to end any time soon, because it's another lever the boss class can use to keep workers fighting among themselves, rather than fighting the bosses.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Feb 5, 2016)

krink said:


> people say less shit stuff openly now because it's frowned upon by authorities but their repulsive views are all still intact.
> 
> *well, that's my experience*.



Mine too.


----------



## MarkyMarrk (Feb 5, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> Because they happened. To say "racist terms" and euphemisms like "the P-word" and "the N-word" demeans the person/people/culture being insulted by sweeping reality under the rug. Those terms are part of a discourse that takes away the agency of those people being called names, while denying them the opportunity to reclaim those words.
> It's exactly the same sort of mealy-mouthed stuff as the "PoC" phrase you say that you hate. Back in the day, the term was "black", regardless of your shade, and that was a badge worn proudly by "Africans", "Afro-Caribbeans", "South Asians" and others.



You have decided that the language I used earlier demeans me?
Are you black?

You've decided that it's better for me for you to use the word nigger, coon and wog, so I hope you are.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Feb 5, 2016)

story said:


> He's got form for this.
> 
> Jimmy Savile dead



That's shocking. If I had dismissed people's personal testimonies on such an important issue the once I'd learn my lesson and tread carefully. Not with this one it seems. Boots in, apologies later (or not, I take it?)


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Feb 5, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> No, the subtext is that he's a fantasist white male, who's been banned several times previously for posting stuff that he can then hypocrisy-hunt the replies to.



I don't know his posting history. So it's a bit unfair to attack me based on the assumption that I do? Anyway, let's see your evidence supporting this.


----------



## MarkyMarrk (Feb 5, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> No, the subtext is that he's a fantasist white male, who's been banned several times previously for posting stuff that he can then hypocrisy-hunt the replies to. So far, every thread he's posted has been on a "button-pushing" subject.



I missed this first time. Now that I've seen it, you can go on ignore. What a nasty piece of work. And pretty racist in itself.


----------



## story (Feb 5, 2016)

Magnus McGinty said:


> That's shocking. If I had dismissed people's personal testimonies on such an important issue the once I'd learn my lesson and tread carefully. Not with this one it seems. Boots in, apologies later (or not, I take it?)



Not yet. Despite being prompted more than once, by others and by me too.

If he'd apologised I'd probably not have flagged it up here.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Feb 5, 2016)

I have no idea why people can deduce you're a fantasist merely from views expressed. I haven't seen your posting history so  I'm waiting for some evidence.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Feb 5, 2016)

story said:


> Not yet. Despite being prompt more than once, by others and by me too.
> 
> If he'd apologised I'd probably not have flagged it up here.



Well I'm thankful you did. It's good to know I'm not the only person he thinks is a 'cretin' for wanting to believe the testimony of others.


----------



## kabbes (Feb 6, 2016)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I have no idea why people can deduce you're a fantasist merely from views expressed. I haven't seen your posting history so  I'm waiting for some evidence.


Why do you think anybody cares whether or not you believe us?  I'm not here to hold your hand; choose to ignore the warning if you prefer.  Assuming you are not a sock-puppet, please feel free to engage with the troll to your heart's content and make your own mind up down the track.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Feb 6, 2016)

kabbes said:


> Why do you think anybody cares whether or not you believe us?  I'm not here to hold your hand; choose to ignore the warning if you prefer.  Assuming you are not a sock-puppet, please feel free to engage with the troll to your heart's content and make your own mind up down the track.



I don't believe I mentioned people caring or not. I asked for evidence. Was this your attempt at providing some?


----------



## kabbes (Feb 6, 2016)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I don't believe I mentioned people caring or not. I asked for evidence. Was this your attempt at providing some?


No, it's me pointing out that I don't care whether or not you believe it.  Did you not understand it the first time round?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Feb 6, 2016)

Given you are completely wrong about me being a sock puppet I have to draw the conclusion that you're wrong about everything else too.


----------



## kabbes (Feb 6, 2016)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Given you are completely wrong about me being a sock puppet I have to draw the conclusion that you're wrong about everything else too.


Ah, the raven fallacy.  Nice one.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Feb 6, 2016)

kabbes said:


> Ah, the raven fallacy.  Nice one.



It demonstrates that you're willing to make outlandish accusations based upon complete assumptions.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Feb 6, 2016)

I defend someone you dislike, therefore I must be that very same person.

Go Einstein.


----------



## kabbes (Feb 6, 2016)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I defend someone you dislike, therefore I must be that very same person.
> 
> Go Einstein.


It's certainly a possibility


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 6, 2016)

MarkyMarrk said:


> Sort of.
> 
> Being Black is a big part of my life and defines me. As does being a British male.  I am a Christian, a young proud man, British and black. One of my parents is from Trinidad.
> 
> ...


i am surprised you can say you're an xian and proud, isn't pride one of your seven deadly sins.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Feb 6, 2016)

kabbes said:


> It's certainly a possibility



Well there's no point in me telling you otherwise as you'll just run with whatever you've already decided. Which you now admit is a mere 'possibility'.


----------



## kabbes (Feb 6, 2016)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Well there's no point in me telling you otherwise as you'll just run with whatever you've already decided. Which you now admit is a mere 'possibility'.


Where did I describe it as anything other than a possibility?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Feb 6, 2016)

kabbes said:


> Where did I describe it as anything other than a possibility?



Where have I suggested that you described it as anything other than a possibility?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Feb 6, 2016)

kabbes said:


> Where did I describe it as anything other than a possibility?



Based on this stance you accept that the chances markymark isn't black is also just a possibility?


----------



## MarkyMarrk (Feb 6, 2016)

It should probably be irrelevant. But most of all, it's offensive. I don't consider racism to be as big a problem as many black people do (I don't like the phrase 'black community') in that I see it a lot less than you/ others get in London.

The most common form of racism though is people doubting my experiences. Usually from right-wingers.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Feb 6, 2016)

I don't think kabbes and bannoff are claiming to be left wingers though, in their defence.


----------



## MarkyMarrk (Feb 6, 2016)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I don't think kabbes and bannoff are claiming to be left wingers though, in their defence.


I don't know what they are. There aren't many right-wingers on this website though. 
I realise someone will come on and say something like "you are evidence there are right winghers though".


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 6, 2016)

MarkyMarrk said:


> You have decided that the language I used earlier demeans me?
> Are you black?
> 
> You've decided that it's better for me for you to use the word nigger, coon and wog, so I hope you are.



This isn't all about *you*, and your attempt to make it about you is crass. This is about history, and about how eliding inconvenient facts from history demeans those who experienced oppression. I don't like the words "Yid" or "Kike", but I'm damned if I'll insist people refer to them as "the Y-word" or "the K-word", just so that my Jewish sensibilities aren't ruffled.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 6, 2016)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I don't know his posting history. So it's a bit unfair to attack me based on the assumption that I do? Anyway, let's see your evidence supporting this.



Go to any thread he's started, then read the thread.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Feb 6, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> Go to any thread he's started, then read the thread.



And I will find opinions that prove he isn't a black man that feels he's had casual racism directed at him?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 6, 2016)

Magnus McGinty said:


> And I will find opinions that prove he isn't a black man that feels he's had casual racism directed at him?



Is that what I claimed that you'd find?


----------



## toggle (Feb 6, 2016)

MarkyMarrk said:


> No, it's really different. It's something that is said because it's assumed that black people call each other 'brothers'. I don't even know the origin, but it's not said to just anyone. Though J Ed suggests that it was said to him, which is weird.




the usual explanation is that it's a common thing among african americans, a legacy of slavery. 

slavery split families so people created their own relationships to try to make up for what they have lost. studies tend to refer to thse as fictive relationships/kinships


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Feb 6, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> Is that what I claimed that you'd find?



It's where you directed me to go to find supporting evidence for it yes. Are you now retracting that suggestion?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 6, 2016)

Magnus McGinty said:


> It's where you directed me to go to find supporting evidence for it yes.



It's where I directed you to go for evidence of what I claimed.
Now, what did I claim?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Feb 6, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> It's where I directed you to go for evidence of what I claimed.
> Now, what did I claim?



You said:



ViolentPanda said:


> No, the subtext is that he's a fantasist white male, who's been banned several times previously for posting stuff that he can then hypocrisy-hunt the replies to.



This is not the same as saying he isn't black then?


----------



## story (Feb 6, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> It's where I directed you to go for evidence of what I claimed.
> Now, what did I claim?



Perhaps you're not aware of how very smug and patronising you can be sometimes, ViolentPanda ...


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Feb 6, 2016)

He can be as smug as he likes but he's snookered himself.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 6, 2016)

story said:


> Perhaps you're not aware of how very smug and patronising you can be sometimes, ViolentPanda ...



Right backatcha, story.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 6, 2016)

Magnus McGinty said:


> You said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is not the same as saying he isn't black then?



That's your interpretation.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Feb 6, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> No, the subtext is that he's a fantasist white male



Let's have your interpretation then.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 6, 2016)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Let's have your interpretation then.



The first four words in the quote are"No, the subtext is...".
What does that tell you? I know what it tells me, but what does it tell you?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 6, 2016)

BTW, I'm off to do some community work until six, but await my return to the thread eagerly.


----------



## story (Feb 6, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> Right backatcha, story.




Heh...


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Feb 6, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> The first four words in the quote are"No, the subtext is...".
> What does that tell you? I know what it tells me, but what does it tell you?



That you're telling me some background history. What else could it mean?


----------



## Gromit (Feb 6, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> Right backatcha, story.


You'll never be as good a poster as story.


----------



## Thimble Queen (Feb 6, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> "Commonplace" implies that it's done by a majority. Daily by one person just means that the shouter is an ignorant racist cunt that you should have chinned the first time he shouted it.
> 
> When I was fostered for a short time by a Muslim couple in the '70s (their son was a mate), casual racism meant that they got referred to as "Pakis" every day, by the majority of people, and that my black mates got referred to as "coons", "nignogs", "wogs" and "niggers" every day by the majority of people, and that my HK Chinese mates got referred to as "Chinkies", and only a minority of us (mostly because we were working class, and in the "front line" of NF and British Movement recruitment areas, rather than because we were middle-class liberals) saw anything wrong with it.



Pretty odd you felt the need to write out all of these words. Really unnecessary.


----------



## Teenage Cthulhu (Feb 6, 2016)

.
Can not be bothered it just gets so wearing.
.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Feb 6, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> BTW, I'm off to do some community work until six, but await my return to the thread eagerly.



It's a long old wait this one.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 6, 2016)

poptyping said:


> Pretty odd you felt the need to write out all of these words. Really unnecessary.



What's "odd"? I'm not being disingenuous here, I want to know why it's "odd".
As to why I "felt the need", as I said earlier, I was talking about what happened in the '70s, (in fact between the sixties and the eighties in my memory, having been born in the sixties) and that to me talking about what my foster-parents experienced by saying "the P-word", or what my mates experienced by saying "the N-word" (or even what I, to a much lesser extent, experienced by saying "the Y-word") cheapened what was suffered by arbitrarily substituting the language - in effect those words have been given *more* power, the insult they give has been revitalised.
This is of course merely my opinion and my experience. Yours may vary.


----------



## Teenage Cthulhu (Feb 6, 2016)

You still haven't explained why you felt the need to list every racial slur you could think of. It had the air of someone who was enjoying an opportunity to use words they otherwise wouldn't use.

Utterly unnecessary. I also think it is exceptionally unprofessional language for a clinical psychologist and BPS expert court witness to be using. You want to be careful that it does not return to haunt you.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 6, 2016)

Magnus McGinty said:


> It's a long old wait this one.



Tough shit, I've been defrosting after spending several hours outdoors trying to convince people on my estate that there's another option to rolling over and letting the council demolish our homes. You come a distant second to keeping a decent roof over my head.


----------



## Teenage Cthulhu (Feb 6, 2016)

posting mistake.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 6, 2016)

Teenage Cthulhu said:


> You still haven't explained why you felt the need to list every racial slur you could think of.



I've heard - and therefore know - a lot more racial slurs than I "listed". Good for you on attempting to insinuate that I'm a racist, though! I honestly didn't see that one coming!



> It had the air of someone who was enjoying an opportunity to use words they otherwise wouldn't use.
> 
> Utterly unnecessary.



Interesting attempt to characterise me as racist again.
Except that I've repeated given the context in which I used those terms- a context that you've ignored in favour of pointing and waving. I wonder why that is?


----------



## Orang Utan (Feb 6, 2016)

Is VP the QT of U75?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 6, 2016)

Gromit said:


> You'll never be as good a poster as story.



I wasn't aware that posting is a competition, although "competitiveness"  would explain some of the sexist _dreck_ that you've posted.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 6, 2016)

Orang Utan said:


> Is VP the QT of U75?



QT?


----------



## Orang Utan (Feb 6, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> QT?


QT


----------



## Teenage Cthulhu (Feb 6, 2016)

I am not insinuating you are racist as that would be a crass accusation and I have seen no evidence to suggest you are.   I simply said it was "utterly unnecessary" to type them all out. We all know they exist and the power those terms have.

And again just not the language I am used to seeing from clinical psychologists or any such professional to be honest.


----------



## Teenage Cthulhu (Feb 6, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> QT?



Quentin Tarantino. He is a film director.


----------



## Thimble Queen (Feb 6, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> What's "odd"? I'm not being disingenuous here, I want to know why it's "odd".
> As to why I "felt the need", as I said earlier, I was talking about what happened in the '70s, (in fact between the sixties and the eighties in my memory, having been born in the sixties) and that to me talking about what my foster-parents experienced by saying "the P-word", or what my mates experienced by saying "the N-word" (or even what I, to a much lesser extent, experienced by saying "the Y-word") cheapened what was suffered by arbitrarily substituting the language - in effect those words have been given *more* power, the insult they give has been revitalised.
> This is of course merely my opinion and my experience. Yours may vary.



Mine very much does vary. I can think of very very few instances where the use of those words is needed or justifiable. Least of all that using n word etc gives more power to the full versions of the word. I cant fully explain why as ive just woken uo from a nap nut also i dont think i owe anyone an explaination or an education on this. I thought better of you tbh.

Saying this as a South Asian woman btw.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 6, 2016)

Magnus McGinty said:


> That you're telling me some background history. What else could it mean?



Subtext is created - either deliberately or subconsciously.
I mentioned how the poster had posted several "button-pushing" threads in a row - about buying a house with the help of his parents; about moving to Brixton; about identity politics ("universities should not be safe spaces) etc, and dropping "moderate Labour" propaganda (i.e. the stuff about how the Labour right are much more vote-worthy than lefty like Corbyn) on half a dozen political threads.
All the above creates a subtext, obviously, so the question is (to me) "is it deliberate? Is the poster creating a subtext so improbable they want people to think 'they're not what they seem'?", or "are they writing the subtext unconsciously".
As a cynic, I go with the former - that the poster has manufactured a subtext that's wildly at variance with who he's said he is.  That doesn't mean he isn't black and/or whatever else he claims. It *does* mean that the "cues and clues" he gives in what he writes, aren't always consonant with what he claims.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 6, 2016)

Orang Utan said:


> QT



Question Time?
Quentin Tarantino?

If either, why not just say that?


----------



## Orang Utan (Feb 6, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> Question Time?
> Quentin Tarantino?
> 
> If either, why not just say that?


cos it wouldn't scan as well.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 6, 2016)

poptyping said:


> Mine very much does vary. I can think of very very few instances where the use of those words is needed or justifiable.



IMO it depends on *why* you're using them.
To elucidate an issue around racism -fine.
As insults directed against a person or a community - not fine. 



> Least of all that using n word etc gives more power to the full versions of the word.



As I said, in *my* experience, people are so much more shocked by the use, that those words nowadays have even more power to offend than 30-40-50 years ago. *Part* of why that's the case is because of the use of euphemisms. That's always been the case when you substitute an insulting word or phrase with a euphemism. As a (mild) example, for a time in the 20th century, euphemisms for "shit" held sway over the word itself, so the actual word "shit" went beyond the pale for usage in any but the "roughest" company.   



> I cant fully explain why as ive just woken uo from a nap nut also i dont think i owe anyone an explaination or an education on this. I thought better of you tbh.



You owe me nothing. I'm totally aware of that, so thanks for answering my question.



> Saying this as a South Asian woman btw.



I know.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 6, 2016)

Teenage Cthulhu said:


> Quentin Tarantino. He is a film director.



Yes.
Yes he is.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 6, 2016)

Teenage Cthulhu said:


> I am not insinuating you are racist as that would be a crass accusation and I have seen no evidence to suggest you are.   I simply said it was "utterly unnecessary" to type them all out. We all know they exist and the power those terms have.
> 
> And again just not the language I am used to seeing from clinical psychologists or any such professional to be honest.



I'm not a clinical psychologist. If you'd been paying more attention, you'd have noticed that I *repeatedly* told Mark that I don't practice, and that I'm not a clinician.

And as for "language", why are you expecting a professional who isn't engaged in their profession to still filter their language through the vocabulary of that profession?


----------



## Orang Utan (Feb 6, 2016)

wriggle wriggle wriggle


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 6, 2016)

Orang Utan said:


> wriggle wriggle wriggle



Whatever you say.


----------



## MarkyMarrk (Feb 6, 2016)

poptyping said:


> Mine very much does vary. I can think of very very few instances where the use of those words is needed or justifiable. Least of all that using n word etc gives more power to the full versions of the word. I cant fully explain why as ive just woken uo from a nap nut also i dont think i owe anyone an explaination or an education on this. I thought better of you tbh.
> 
> Saying this as a South Asian woman btw.


Spot on. Exactly my opinion, and as a result I was told I'm not black and a white man knows better about, for example, reclaiming these words.


----------



## Thimble Queen (Feb 6, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> IMO it depends on *why* you're using them.
> To elucidate an issue around racism -fine.
> As insults directed against a person or a community - not fine.
> 
> .



I don't agree. Everyone knows what n word means. It might make you feel like your getting your point across better. But, for me, being on the receiving end, of your explanation, the impact is probably something you haven't intended at all.

I don't think it's ok for white ppl to use such words to get their point across. It's just a shit excuse imo


----------



## Gromit (Feb 6, 2016)

poptyping said:


> I don't agree. Everyone knows what n word means. It might make you feel like your getting your point across better. But, for me, being on the receiving end, of your explanation, the impact is probably something you haven't intended at all.
> 
> I don't think it's ok for white ppl to use such words to get their point across. It's just a shit excuse imo


Only white people?

Black people can use it as an insult too.


----------



## Thimble Queen (Feb 6, 2016)

Gromit said:


> Only white people?
> 
> Black people can use it as an insult too.



"They say it, why can't we".


----------



## krink (Feb 6, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> I don't think you're wrong - racism has definitely become more "nudge nudge, wink wink", rather than more open, but I also think that fewer kids are inculcated with this shit than 30-40-50 years ago, and not just because it's repulsive, but because so many more kids, even out in the sticks, grow up in multi-ethnic environments nowadays.
> 
> Also, lets be honest with ourselves and each other: We all know that racism isn't going to end any time soon, because it's another lever the boss class can use to keep workers fighting among themselves, rather than fighting the bosses.



I agree the younger generations are visibly much less prejudiced than my contemporaries. I should have mentioned that as it does give me a bit of hope.


----------



## Gromit (Feb 6, 2016)

poptyping said:


> "They say it, why can't we".


You are answering the wrong argument. Especially as no one is making that argument.  

Is it okay for a black person to call someone the n word as a deliberate insult?

Yes or no?


----------



## Thimble Queen (Feb 6, 2016)

Gromit said:


> You are answering the wrong argument. Especially as no one is making that argument.
> 
> Is it okay for a black person to call someone the n word as a deliberate insult?
> 
> Yes or no?



That's not what we are talking about. We are talking about white people using n word in conversations about racism. It's not ok for white people to do that. But if black and brown people are talking, for example, about a racist incident that they've experienced then that is fine. 

Your whataboutery is irrelevant.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Feb 6, 2016)

Gromit said:


> Is it okay for a black person to call someone the n word as a deliberate insult?



No. IMO.

Now scroll back up and actually respond to what poptyping wrote not what you imagined she did.


----------



## Gromit (Feb 6, 2016)

poptyping said:


> That's not what we are talking about. We are talking about white people using n word in conversations about racism. It's not ok for white people to do that. But if black and brown people are talking, for example, about a racist incident that they've experienced then that is fine.
> 
> Your whataboutery is irrelevant.


Why are you avoiding answering my straight yes no question?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Feb 6, 2016)

Gromit said:


> Why are you avoiding answering my straight yes no question?



She isn't. Your question came from nowhere and has naff all to do with the point she actually made.


----------



## Gromit (Feb 6, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> She isn't. Your question came from nowhere and has naff all to do with the point she actually made.


You answered. She didn't. 

She came up with some nonsense about if it's been used against you how can you not discuss it without repeating it. Which is relevant to *any* abuse and so irrelevant to the conversation.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Feb 6, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> QT?


 






meh


----------



## Thimble Queen (Feb 6, 2016)

Gromit said:


> Why are you avoiding answering my straight yes no question?



It's not ok. But that's not what we are talking about. 

What are the circumstances in which you think it's ok to use n-word or p-word etc in full?


----------



## Thimble Queen (Feb 6, 2016)

Gromit said:


> You answered. She didn't.
> 
> She came up with some nonsense about if it's been used against you how can you not discuss it without repeating it. Which is relevant to *any* abuse and so irrelevant to the conversation.



You are chatting nonsense. Quote me. 

If you are white you don't get to say n-word. What's so difficult about that for you to grasp.


----------



## Gromit (Feb 6, 2016)

I asked:

Is it okay for a black person to call someone the n word as a deliberate insult?

Yes or no?

Simple question Which was solely about black people. Not white people, Asian people or any other people.



poptyping said:


> That's not what we are talking about. We are talking about white people using n word in conversations about racism. It's not ok for white people to do that.





poptyping said:


> It's not ok. But that's not what we are talking about.
> 
> What are the circumstances in which you think it's ok to use n-word or p-word etc in full?





poptyping said:


> You are chatting nonsense. Quote me.
> 
> If you are white you don't get to say n-word. What's so difficult about that for you to grasp.



Look how much deflection went on there. I couldn't ask a simple question about whether its okay for a black person to do something with out a shit load of white baggage being dragged into it.
Its become a Pavlov's reflex reaction where the n word is concerned to not examine how bad the word itself is but to concentrate all the energy on how bad it is for white people to say it. It creates an instant emotive racist reaction of its own.



MarkyMarrk said:


> Spot on. Exactly my opinion, and as a result I was told I'm not black and a white man knows better about, for example, reclaiming these words.



Reclaiming the n word has failed and failed spectacularly. To reclaim a word is to rob it of its power. I think we've demonstrated clearly that this word has not been robbed of any power.
(please excuse the use of the actually words for clarity sake only, no offense meant)

Negro is a late 16th century word. 
Nigger is a late 17th century word
Nigga or Niggah is early 20th century (1920's)

Its been around a long arse time.

Queer as an insult to homosexuals started around 1950s and gained strength 1970's. Its been reclaimed for ages.

Someone is doing something wrong and someone did something right.
No one said straight people can't use the word queer or gay only homosexual people can.

Adding all this emotional baggage conditional rules to whether a word is or isn't bad has created so much shit that we are still arguing about this shit hundreds of years later
In my mind everyone should be slapped for saying it whether black or white or brown or whatever. Its the only rule that makes sense to me.
Referring only to 'white people' whenever the issue arises only perpetuates this argument further imo.

Not than people will ever realize this. We'll be having this argument about the n word in another 200 years from now.


----------



## Thimble Queen (Feb 6, 2016)

The conversation was about white people using n word before you jumped in with your whataboutry.

Just fuck off. And slap yourself for using nasty disgusting racial slurs while your at it.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Feb 7, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> Subtext is created - either deliberately or subconsciously.
> I mentioned how the poster had posted several "button-pushing" threads in a row - about buying a house with the help of his parents; about moving to Brixton; about identity politics ("universities should not be safe spaces) etc, and dropping "moderate Labour" propaganda (i.e. the stuff about how the Labour right are much more vote-worthy than lefty like Corbyn) on half a dozen political threads.
> All the above creates a subtext, obviously, so the question is (to me) "is it deliberate? Is the poster creating a subtext so improbable they want people to think 'they're not what they seem'?", or "are they writing the subtext unconsciously".
> As a cynic, I go with the former - that the poster has manufactured a subtext that's wildly at variance with who he's said he is.  That doesn't mean he isn't black and/or whatever else he claims. It *does* mean that the "cues and clues" he gives in what he writes, aren't always consonant with what he claims.



I don't think that satisfactorily explains your interpretation of this:



ViolentPanda said:


> No, the subtext is that he's a fantasist white male



Which to me is making a statement that the poster definitely isn't black. To choose a thread where he is already complaining about racism to say this is rubbing salt in the wounds. I think you should retract and apologise.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 7, 2016)

Puddy_Tat said:


> meh


yeh that is fucking meh


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 7, 2016)

poptyping said:


> I don't agree. Everyone knows what n word means. It might make you feel like your getting your point across better. But, for me, being on the receiving end, of your explanation, the impact is probably something you haven't intended at all.
> 
> I don't think it's ok for white ppl to use such words to get their point across. It's just a shit excuse imo



Looks like we're getting into "trigger warnings" and identity politics territory, which is - IMO - what caused racism to "go underground" - rather than gradually disappear - in the first place.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 7, 2016)

Gromit said:


> Only white people?



Is the wrong question.



> Black people can use it as an insult too.



And...? Black people "own" the term. Just like Jews "own" the term "Yid".


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 7, 2016)

Puddy_Tat said:


> meh



That doesn't make tea when you add water, it makes a vaguely tea-flavoured drink.


----------



## Thimble Queen (Feb 7, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> Looks like we're getting into "trigger warnings" and identity politics territory, which is - IMO - what caused racism to "go underground" - rather than gradually disappear - in the first place.



This sounds a lot like you are saying POC are at fault for having boundaries and being vocal about it. Its our own fault racism hasnt magically withered away. Really?

Maybe you dont see racism as much as i do bc you are a white man. What about the recent demonstration in dover, rising islamophobia, attacks on newly arrived people, the constant anti 'migrant' rhetoric in the press, the continued police brutality against black and brown people inc the 500 b&b ppl that have died in detention (both police and mental health) and yet not a single prosecution has been brought, what about the indefinate locking of black and brown ppl in Yarls Wood... the list goes on... This might have escaped your attention as it doesnt touch your life. To say that racism would have gone away if werent so bloody uppity?! Fucking hell. 

And now you'll say to me oh pick your battles those things are bigger than n-word. Its not one or the other. You know what i do in France, for example.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Feb 7, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> Looks like we're getting into "trigger warnings" and identity politics territory, which is - IMO - what caused racism to "go underground" - rather than gradually disappear - in the first place.



So having a greater awareness of racism and how it affects people, becoming vocal and others stepping up in solidarity has caused racism to go underground instead of gradually disappearing?

On which_ planet_ has racism gone underground btw?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Feb 7, 2016)

Gromit said:


> I asked:
> 
> Is it okay for a black person to call someone the n word as a deliberate insult?
> 
> ...



Why do you find it so hard to talk about White people? Why did you deflect from what was being discussed to shift the focus onto when Black people use it?

You sound exactly like someone I knew who called me a nigger whilst we were friendly bantering one night...his defence was, 'well Black people use it in rap music...what's wrong with you, reclaim it?' 

'Emotional baggage'?  Yeah we _should_ just simply grow a thicker skin. Or like someone else recently suggested to me as a solution to experiencing racism that very day... 'just be a happy person, some people are so too angry'.


----------



## chilango (Feb 7, 2016)

One thing I'd like to add - tentatively - is that when people talk about white men don't "see racism as much" or that that it doesn't touch their lives (cf. poptyping above) that they're missing a dimension out. The perpetrators (and bystanders) of racism are coming from "us". So hell yeah it effects us. And, yes, our perspective on this is valuable.

Not that that means that poptyping is wrong in what they said.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 7, 2016)

chilango said:


> One thing I'd like to add - tentatively - is that when people talk about white men don't "see racism as much" or that that it doesn't touch their lives (cf. poptyping above) that they're missing a dimension out. The perpetrators (and bystanders) of racism are coming from "us". So hell yeah it effects us. And, yes, our perspective on this is valuable.
> 
> Not that that means that poptyping is wrong in what they said.


tbh i think it does the debate no good to say "racism comes from white men" when that's not the whole truth.


----------



## MarkyMarrk (Feb 7, 2016)

..


----------



## Thimble Queen (Feb 7, 2016)

chilango said:


> One thing I'd like to add - tentatively - is that when people talk about white men don't "see racism as much" or that that it doesn't touch their lives (cf. poptyping above) that they're missing a dimension out. The perpetrators (and bystanders) of racism are coming from "us". So hell yeah it effects us. And, yes, our perspective on this is valuable.
> 
> Not that that means that poptyping is wrong in what they said.



Most white people dont see or feel racism as much bc you arent on the recieving end of it. Yeah you might be a bystander to it or a perpetrator of it but you wont see or feel it as much as someone who is dealing with it on a daily basis.

It doesnt touch white lives in the same way... The white people who i know who get close to understanding are the ones who have incredibly close familial relationships with b&b people and even still there is still a gap. 

Yes you have a perspective and yes you should support in calling it out but being a perp or a bystander in no way gives you the same level of understanding of what its like to grow up and live in a structurally racist society. Racism isnt just someone shouting n word,  burning down your place of worship or chucking a pigs head through the front of your business window. Its about all the things i mentioned in my previous post and more.


----------



## chilango (Feb 7, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> tbh i think it does the debate no good to say "racism comes from white men" when that's not the whole truth.



Of course its not the "whole truth". Perhaps I should've qualified it some more, like, "Many of the perps (and bystanders) of racism are coming from us".

Anyway.

What I mean is that the views, and experiences from "white men"* do add another perspective. 

*I'm focussing on the category "white men" 'cos that's how ViolentPanda was described above by poptyping in their reply.

I guess I'm talking about how when I experience racism (notably the "casual racism" of the thread) its usually when there are only white people are around. Now, I'm not the victim of it (well, indirectly I may be, but that's a whole other argument). I'm not the perp. either.


----------



## chilango (Feb 7, 2016)

poptyping said:


> Most white people dont see or feel racism as much bc you arent on the recieving end of it. Yeah you might be a bystander to it or a perpetrator of it but you wont see or feel it as much as someone who is dealing with it on a daily basis.
> 
> It doesnt touch white lives in the same way... The white people who i know who get close to understanding are the ones who have incredibly close familial relationships with b&b people and even still there is still a gap.
> 
> Yes you have a perspective and yes you should support in calling it out but being a perp or a bystander in no way gives you the same level of understanding of what its like to grow up and live in a structurally racist society. Racism isnt just someone shouting n word,  burning down your place of worship or chucking a pigs head through the front of your business window. Its about all the things i mentioned in my previous post and more.



Yeah. Agreed. 100%. I'm not disputing any of that at all. Please don't think I am.


----------



## Thimble Queen (Feb 7, 2016)

chilango said:


> Yeah. Agreed. 100%. I'm not disputing any of that at all. Please don't think I am.



What *are* you disputing


----------



## chilango (Feb 7, 2016)

poptyping said:


> What *are* you disputing



Heh. I'm not _disputing_ anything. Just adding, or trying to at least.


----------



## Gromit (Feb 7, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> Why do you find it so hard to talk about White people? Why did you deflect from what was being discussed to shift the focus onto when Black people use it?
> 
> You sound exactly like someone I knew who called me a nigger whilst we were friendly bantering one night...his defence was, 'well Black people use it in rap music...what's wrong with you, reclaim it?'
> 
> 'Emotional baggage'?  Yeah we _should_ just simply grow a thicker skin. Or like someone else recently suggested to me as a solution to experiencing racism that very day... 'just be a happy person, some people are so too angry'.



Growing a thicker skin is how queer was reclaimed so yes. 
Yes grow a thicker skin for that one word. 
If you want to rob it of power don't give it any.


----------



## Gromit (Feb 7, 2016)

poptyping said:


> Most white people dont see or feel racism as much bc you arent on the recieving end of it. Yeah you might be a bystander to it or a perpetrator of it but you wont see or feel it as much as someone who is dealing with it on a daily basis.
> 
> It doesnt touch white lives in the same way... The white people who i know who get close to understanding are the ones who have incredibly close familial relationships with b&b people and even still there is still a gap.
> 
> Yes you have a perspective and yes you should support in calling it out but being a perp or a bystander in no way gives you the same level of understanding of what its like to grow up and live in a structurally racist society. Racism isnt just someone shouting n word,  burning down your place of worship or chucking a pigs head through the front of your business window. Its about all the things i mentioned in my previous post and more.


I'm Welsh and so been subjected to casual racism all my life. 
There no protection at all for Welsh racism. We get it on TV and it's considered fine. 

I've stood up against racism at football, on xBox live and other places. I've never had anyone stand up and say that's out of order calling him a sheep shagger etc.


----------



## MarkyMarrk (Feb 7, 2016)

Gromit said:


> Growing a thicker skin is how queer was reclaimed so yes.
> Yes grow a thicker skin for that one word.
> If you want to rob it of power don't give it any.



No words.


----------



## MarkyMarrk (Feb 7, 2016)

If only Stephen Lawrence had *grown a thicker skin*.


----------



## Gromit (Feb 7, 2016)

MarkyMarrk said:


> No words.


And that's why you'll never reclaim it.


----------



## MarkyMarrk (Feb 7, 2016)

If only Rosa Parks had *grown a thicker skin rather than complained.*


----------



## MarkyMarrk (Feb 7, 2016)

Gromit said:


> And that's why you'll never reclaim it.


What a nasty piece of work.


----------



## MarkyMarrk (Feb 7, 2016)

Don't worry about getting paid less because of the colour of your skin, at least a white geek challenges it on Xbox live.

As a result we should grown thicker skins.

Yes, the fault of, and reason for casual racism is because the victims don't *grow a thicker skin*.


----------



## Gromit (Feb 7, 2016)

MarkyMarrk said:


> If only Stephen Lawrence had *grown a thicker skin*.


He was killed by a word?


----------



## Gromit (Feb 7, 2016)

MarkyMarrk said:


> Don't worry about getting paid less because of the colour of your skin, at least a white geek challenges it on Xbox live.


The topic is casual racism not full blown racism.


----------



## MarkyMarrk (Feb 7, 2016)

Gromit said:


> The topic is casual racism not full blown racism.


The fact that you don't recognise the connection says all that needs to be said.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 7, 2016)

poptyping said:


> This sounds a lot like you are saying POC are at fault for having boundaries and being vocal about it. Its our own fault racism hasnt magically withered away. Really?



That's not what I'm saying at all. What I'm saying is that identity politics - to caricature it, people using their identity "speaking as a..." to close down debate back in the '70s and '80s - are *partly* the cause of many of the "isms" still being around to the extent they are, rather than taking their rightful place in the dustbin of history.
That's *not* blaming PoCs, it's blaming people - of whatever persuasion - who engaged in identity politics back then for fucking over a set of social solidarities that were actually working, and replacing them with "single interest" groups. We went in a decade from black communities that consisted of "Afro-Caribbeans", "Asians" and others who deemed themselves black, working together and mostly rubbing along okay, to a fracture into multiple communities based on geography, ethnicity and - in some cases - religion.
Most people I knew back then didn't give a shit for identity politics. The relative few that did, benefited from it, usually at a cost to their community as a whole. 



> Maybe you dont see racism as much as i do bc you are a white man.


I see plenty. I also see what lies behind it.


> What about the recent demonstration in dover, rising islamophobia, attacks on newly arrived people, the constant anti 'migrant' rhetoric in the press...


All of which are connected. The thread that connects them being the press, or rather the wishes of those who own the press. 



> ...the continued police brutality against black and brown people inc the 500 b&b ppl that have died in detention (both police and mental health) and yet not a single prosecution has been brought...



Of course few prosecutions have been brought, and the few that are, rarely succeed. Institutional racism is insidious. Especially so in "closed cultures" like criminal justice.The police, the courts, the prisons are rife with this, and it's almost impossible to shift that stain without entirely dismantling and rebuilding the system. Add to that, in the case of prison detention, the fact that the POA has had a decades-long problem with infiltration by the hard-right, and I'm amazed that the body-count isn't higher.



> what about the indefinate locking of black and brown ppl in Yarls Wood... the list goes on... This might have escaped your attention as it doesnt touch your life. To say that racism would have gone away if werent so bloody uppity?! Fucking hell.



Nice, you've already decided that I've said "racism would have gone away if werent so bloody uppity".
I refer you to my reply above. It's not about "uppity people" 



> And now you'll say to me oh pick your battles those things are bigger than n-word.



Please don't put words in my mouth.



> Its not one or the other. You know what i do in France, for example.


Yes, I know, and I *never* advocate "pick your battles", thanks all the same. It's a liberal deflection tactic that has made most of the extra-parliamentary left useless, and is bad strategy.


----------



## MarkyMarrk (Feb 7, 2016)

A shovel would make this quicker. It's painful.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 7, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> So having a greater awareness of racism and how it affects people, becoming vocal and others stepping up in solidarity has caused racism to go underground instead of gradually disappearing?
> 
> On which_ planet_ has racism gone underground btw?



Thanks for missing my point.

The problem isn't the signal, it's the noise that comes with it. Identity politics is great when it's a tool for asserting individual and collective identity in among other individual and collective identities, but some of the volume "back in the day" wasn't assertion of identity, some of it was pleading of special interest in order to secure money and status for a relative few who saw a benefit and grabbed it. 

"Gone underground" is a euphemism, as I suspect you're well-aware. A euphemism for saying "overt racist language and behaviour is less socially acceptable than it used to be".


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 7, 2016)

MarkyMarrk said:


> A shovel would make this quicker. It's painful.



I thought you had me on ignore? Surely you haven't been telling lies, Mark?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 7, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> tbh i think it does the debate no good to say "racism comes from white men" when that's not the whole truth.



It can never be "the whole truth".
Racism comes from ignorance, and the assertion of superiority by a usually asymmetrically-powerful culture over another. It's not exclusive to one particular ethnicity or culture, it's about anyone oppressing anyone through perceptions or accusations or actions predicated on their race (in the classic 19th century formulation of the "hierarchy of races" ) and its' supposed inferiority.


----------



## ddraig (Feb 7, 2016)

Gromit you piece of shit
how dare you tell black people to grow a thicker skin
how dare you compare racism to anti Welsh prejudice
how dare you make light of the death of Stephen Lawrence
and how fucking dare you not read the answers f posters directly affected properly

fuck the fuck off you total shitehawk


----------



## Gromit (Feb 7, 2016)

MarkyMarrk said:


> Don't worry about getting paid less because of the colour of your skin, at least a white geek challenges it on Xbox live.
> 
> As a result we should grown thicker skins.
> 
> Yes, the fault of, and reason for casual racism is because the victims don't *grow a thicker skin*.



Oh you added to this post.

Are you stupid? No its not the fault. Never said  or implied it was the fault.

Growing a thicker skin to that word is a tool that could be used to eliminate that word. Its the do not feed the trolls method. 

Every time someone uses it to upset someone and that someone gets visibly upset by it the user has got what he wanted. Don't react or say thanks and you rob them of that satisfaction. If they keep getting robbed of that satisfaction sooner or later they are going to give up trying to get satisfaction with it.

The alternative is to get all upset and challenge it etc etc. How long has that been the approach? Decades. 
How is it working for you? Its made little to no difference. The word is still around like a bad smell.

Sheep shagger being shouted at football doesn't upset the welsh fans anymore as we've reclaimed it. At Cardiff when the away fans shout sheep shaggers we shout it louder and prouder. It shuts them right up.

But its your choice. Feel free to carry on and be offended and give the racists exactly what they want when they use it.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 7, 2016)

Gromit said:


> Growing a thicker skin is how queer was reclaimed so yes.
> Yes grow a thicker skin for that one word.
> If you want to rob it of power don't give it any.



Don't be a fuckwit. Your grasp of history is parlous.
"Queer" wasn't reclaimed through gay people growing a thicker skin, it was reclaimed through political and social action, through embracing the definition of an outsider, and turning it into the definition of an insider.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 7, 2016)

Gromit said:


> I'm Welsh and so been subjected to casual racism all my life.
> There no protection at all for Welsh racism. We get it on TV and it's considered fine.
> 
> I've stood up against racism at football, on xBox live and other places. I've never had anyone stand up and say that's out of order calling him a sheep shagger etc.



Welsh isn't a race, it's a nationality.


----------



## ddraig (Feb 7, 2016)

Gromit said:


> Oh you added to this post.
> 
> Are you stupid? No its not the fault. Never said  or implied it was the fault.
> 
> ...


you are a total fucking embarrassment
for shame

you know this is kinda the same argument as telling women to cover themselves up so men don't attack them? you prob agree with that too tho eh

how about confronting racism, making it clearly unacceptable and leave nowhere for the fuckers to trot out their shit


----------



## Gromit (Feb 7, 2016)

ddraig said:


> how dare you make light of the death of Stephen Lawrence



I never made light. I questioned the relevance of him raising it at that point in time.


----------



## ddraig (Feb 7, 2016)

Gromit said:


> I never made light. I questioned the relevance of him raising it at that point in time.


no you didn't you went way further, why phrase it that way?


----------



## Gromit (Feb 7, 2016)

ddraig said:


> you are a total fucking embarrassment
> for shame
> 
> you know this is kinda the same argument as telling women to cover themselves up so men don't attack them? you prob agree with that too tho eh
> ...



The two things aren't mutually exclusive. You can challenge racism and effectively reclaim words through passive resistance.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Feb 7, 2016)

Gromit said:


> Growing a thicker skin is how queer was reclaimed so yes.
> Yes grow a thicker skin for that one word.
> If you want to rob it of power don't give it any.



Your ignorant, simplistic representation of how the LGBT communities 'reclaimed' the term queer aside  what is rather funny in a tragic kind of way is that you speak about Black and LGBT people here  as if we/they are mono-cultural entities who all think the same, who have all have the same experiences, who all have the same world view or _should _do. If only we would just do what you suggest eh? Then we'd have nothing to complain our _over-emotional_ selves about. The whole premise of your comparison and view on this is itself 'casually racist/anti-queer' in that regard.

In short, your position and reductiveness is shit, your comparison is shit and your advice is shit.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Feb 7, 2016)

I'd like to add - just piss off and educate yourself Gromit, you utter fuckwit.


----------



## Gromit (Feb 7, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> Your ignorant, simplistic representation of how the LGBT communities 'reclaimed' the term queer aside  what is rather funny in a tragic kind of way is that you speak about Black and LGBT people here as if as if we/they are mono-cultural, groups, who all think the same, who have all have the same experiences, who all have the same world view or _should _do. If only we would just do what you suggest eh? Then we'd have nothing to complain our _over-emotional_ selves about.  In short, your comparison is shit and your advice is shit.



Nope. I've merely quoted an effective use of reclaiming. ? Yeah i've simplified it. Its a bulletin board argument. No one wants to type or read long explanations of what people already know.
I've never said over emotional, just emotional. Ordinary emotion is your enemy in reclaiming this word. 

Having a thick skin doesn't mean it doesn't emotionally effect you. It means that you don't give the person the satisfaction of knowing that it has.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Feb 7, 2016)

Yay. Five and a half years and I finally make a start on my ignored users list


----------



## Treacle Toes (Feb 7, 2016)

'Just be a happy person, laugh in their faces, just walk away, focus on something more important, worst things happen at sea'


----------



## ddraig (Feb 7, 2016)

Gromit said:


> Nope. I've merely quoted an effective use of reclaiming. ? Yeah i've simplified it. Its a bulletin board argument. No one wants to type or read long explanations of what people already know.
> I've never said over emotional, just emotional. Ordinary emotion is your enemy in reclaiming this word.
> 
> Having a thick skin doesn't mean it doesn't emotionally effect you. It means that you don't give the person the satisfaction of knowing that it has.


how the fucking fuck would you know what works?? 
again how dare you

i know you are a fucking moron but ffs, this shit ain't funny


----------



## Orang Utan (Feb 7, 2016)

Just to remind everyone that he is a self-confessed troll and that we could always kick him off here.


----------



## Gromit (Feb 7, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> 'Just be a happy person, laugh in their faces, just walk away, focus on something more important, worst things happen at sea'



Allegedly Jesus had this very message. Turn the other cheek. It was supposed to be such a key point to his message that they invent martyrs to its cause. The Christians fed to lions rather than fight each other.

Its a concept that is pretty alien to humans. As humans we want to fight, have conflict, prove we're right and they are wrong. Be divisive. Destroying your enemy is victory not making your enemy your friend.

Its no wonder that Jesus failed in delivering that one piece of wisdom. Its been largely ignored. Swept under the carpet. Gandhi tried to bring it back. He repeatedly had to threaten to starve himself to keep his followers from reverting to their natural tendencies.

Its amusing how I by suggesting the turn the other cheek method and suggesting it is more effective is being called the cunt here. People just love to hate. Think you can fight hate with hate.

Any way this is just a bulletin board. Nothing is going to be achieved by going over the same old ground. The same old shit will just keep on happening. The same old n word debate will continue forever until something different is tried. A leader obviously will have to step forward to lead a new approach. They'll no doubt get shouted down just as i am. You don't want to try something different then carry on enjoying your futile indignation.

I'm out.


----------



## Gromit (Feb 7, 2016)

ddraig said:


> how the fucking fuck would you know what works??
> again how dare you



Every heard of history?

Its a great at showing what works and what doesn't. Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat its mistakes.


----------



## ddraig (Feb 7, 2016)

Gromit said:


> Every heard of history?
> 
> Its a great at showing what works and what doesn't. Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat its mistakes.


thought you were out
you don't have a clue so fuck off


----------



## Gromit (Feb 7, 2016)

Just looking at Wiki and i never knew the word Jesuit was a reclaimed. 

You never hear people saying hey your a gentile you can't say Jesuit.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Feb 7, 2016)

Gromit said:


> A leader obviously will have to step forward to lead a new approach. They'll no doubt get shouted down just as i am.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Feb 7, 2016)

'What _you_ people need is a leader, someone to show you the way like I have, but will you listen? No, you'll never learn'

/messiah complex


----------



## Teenage Cthulhu (Feb 7, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


>



Yes I had to read that bit two or three times myself.


----------



## Orang Utan (Feb 7, 2016)

obvious trolling innit


----------



## Teenage Cthulhu (Feb 7, 2016)

Gromit of Nazareth.


----------



## Gromit (Feb 7, 2016)

The Black institute doesn't believe it can ever be reclaimed either:

Can We Ever Really Reclaim the “N” Word?



> How can we reclaim a word that can still cause us pain when it comes out of the wrong mouth? Along with reclaiming the word, wouldn't we have to announce a world-wide, universal cease fire concerning the word, so that all parties across race lines would know, this word was no longer to be used to injure? Until that time comes when the word nigger has been neutralized and can no longer be used to diminish, demean or otherwise torment Black people, reclaiming it seems simply impossible.



Who would announce that cease fire Rutita? Spontaneous acclamation or will someone have to lead the call?


----------



## Teenage Cthulhu (Feb 7, 2016)

Who the fuck is this clown?


----------



## Gromit (Feb 7, 2016)

MarkyMarrk said:


> Don't worry about getting paid less because of the colour of your skin, at least a white geek challenges it on Xbox live.



Out of interest, by mocking someone for challenging casual racism whilst on a social platform such as xBox live are you stating that you don't want white people challenging racism on xBox live and other social platforms?
That we might as well not bother because of pay inequality?
We might as well just let it ride? Let people carry on being racist on xBox Live?


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 7, 2016)

Time's up Gromit.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Feb 7, 2016)

Gromit said:


> The Black institute doesn't believe it can ever be reclaimed either:
> 
> Can We Ever Really Reclaim the “N” Word?
> 
> ...




'All Black people should think and act the same...look, see The Black Institute agrees'


----------



## Thimble Queen (Feb 7, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> That's not what I'm saying at all. What I'm saying is that identity politics - to caricature it, people using their identity "speaking as a..." to close down debate back in the '70s and '80s - are *partly* the cause of many of the "isms" still being around to the extent they are, rather than taking their rightful place in the dustbin of history.
> That's *not* blaming PoCs, it's blaming people - of whatever persuasion - who engaged in identity politics back then for fucking over a set of social solidarities that were actually working, and replacing them with "single interest" groups. We went in a decade from black communities that consisted of "Afro-Caribbeans", "Asians" and others who deemed themselves black, working together and mostly rubbing along okay, to a fracture into multiple communities based on geography, ethnicity and - in some cases - religion.
> Most people I knew back then didn't give a shit for identity politics. The relative few that did, benefited from it, usually at a cost to their community as a whole.
> 
> ...



TLDR


----------



## Gromit (Feb 7, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> 'All Black people should think and act the same...look, see The Black Institute agrees'



Did you read the article? Because it pretty much states that black people don't think the same on this issue.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 7, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> 'Just be a happy person, laugh in their faces, just walk away, focus on something more important, worst things happen at sea'



Could be worse, he could have said "turn the other cheek", thereby totally missing the fact that smacking an offensive person can be therapeutic.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 7, 2016)

Gromit said:


> Allegedly Jesus had this very message. Turn the other cheek. It was supposed to be such a key point to his message that they invent martyrs to its cause. The Christians fed to lions rather than fight each other.
> 
> Its a concept that is pretty alien to humans. As humans we want to fight, have conflict, prove we're right and they are wrong. Be divisive. Destroying your enemy is victory not making your enemy your friend.
> 
> ...



Jesus is such a good example to give to people, given his fate.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Feb 7, 2016)

Gromit said:


> Did you read the article? Because it pretty much states that black people don't think the same on this issue.



You are really crap at this. I responded/reflected the meaning to the part you selectively quoted, your attempt/trying to suggest that you are 'right' and are supported by the Black institute' in your thinking. Do you imagine we are all members of one monolithic institute or club? Initiated at birth on account of the menanin counts in our skin? 

You ignored me calling you out on your 'casually racist' reductiveness and generalising earlier in the thread... you are doing it again but seem so focused on trying to seem smart you can't even see it.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 7, 2016)

Gromit said:


> Every heard of history?


Given your grasp -or lack of grasp - of it, it seems that you haven't.



> Its a great at showing what works and what doesn't. Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat its mistakes.



Thanks for that, George Santayana.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 7, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> 'What _you_ people need is a leader, someone to show you the way like I have, but will you listen? No, you'll never learn'
> 
> /messiah complex



That's not a messiah complex, that's gromit's _führerprinzip_. A little bit more overtly nasty than Jeebus aspirations.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 7, 2016)

poptyping said:


> TLDR



TSDR.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 7, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> You are really crap at this. I responded/reflected the meaning to the part you selectively quoted, your attempt/trying to suggest that you are 'right' and are supported by the Black institute' in your thinking. Do you imagine we are all members of one monolithic institute or club? Initiated at birth on account of the menanin counts in our skin?



If he does, he's mistaking black people for teh Joooz, who *are* a monolithic - bent on world domination - club.


----------



## Gromit (Feb 7, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> You are really crap at this. I responded/reflected the meaning to the part you selectively quoted, your attempt/trying to suggest that you are 'right' and are supported by the Black institute' in your thinking. Do you imagine we are all members of one monolithic institute or club? Initiated at birth on account of the menanin counts in our skin?
> 
> You ignored me calling you out on your 'casually racist' reductiveness and generalising earlier in the thread... you are doing it again but seem so focused on trying to seem smart you can't even see it.


Well the bit quoted referred to all parties. So the answer is no I never imagine you are all part of one monolithic institute or club. 
I would suggest you are projecting and inserting your own narrative to what I've said rather than listening. 

Do you have to be members of a monolithic institute or club to act in unison for the greater good by the way?


----------



## ddraig (Feb 7, 2016)

fuck off


----------



## Gromit (Feb 7, 2016)

ddraig said:


> fuck off



You fuck off if you can't form a full argument.

Its a bulletin board but your level of argument is no higher than the school yard.


----------



## MarkyMarrk (Feb 7, 2016)

Gromit said:


> Out of interest, by mocking someone for challenging casual racism whilst on a social platform such as xBox live are you stating that you don't want white people challenging racism on xBox live and other social platforms?
> That we might as well not bother because of pay inequality?
> We might as well just let it ride? Let people carry on being racist on xBox Live?



It's your opinion that you challenge some geeks on Xbox live and those are your credentials for being against racism, and your use of that to suggest that victims in real life should turn the other cheek.
I'm a Christian but it's a very selective reading of the bible that suggests that it directs victims to put up with being victims.


----------



## MarkyMarrk (Feb 7, 2016)

Gromit said:


> You fuck off if you can't form a full argument.
> Its a bulletin board but your level of argument is no higher than the school yard.



I can't work out if you think your argument is better than "the school yard", or you're actually racist. Which would again be ironic. A casual racist on the casual racism thread to go with the earlier dismissal of casual racism on the casual racism thread.


----------



## ddraig (Feb 7, 2016)

Gromit said:


> You fuck off if you can't form a full argument.
> 
> Its a bulletin board but your level of argument is no higher than the school yard.


you don't have an argument, you are telling black people how they should act in the face of racism
you keep on doing it despite being corrected
who the fuck do you think you are?


----------



## Gromit (Feb 7, 2016)

ddraig said:


> you don't have an argument, you are telling black people how they should act in the face of racism
> you keep on doing it despite being corrected
> who the fuck do you think you are?



I'm not telling anyone anything.

I've suggested a way of reclaiming a word. 
Its a way that would take some public figure to convince people it was the way forward and would require concerted effort by all those affected.

I think I'm someone on a bulletin board throwing ideas up to the wind. 
What my ideas aren't valid cause i'm white? Isn't that dare i say racist?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Feb 7, 2016)

Gromit said:


> I've suggested a way of reclaiming a word.
> Its a way that would take some public figure to convince people it was the way forward and would require concerted effort by all those affected.



_What you need is a leader, a public figure whom you could/should look up to and who can correct your thinking/feeling because the way you feel isn't the 'right' way. You can not be trusted to think and feel for yourselves. It is going to take effort from you and all of those affected. You need to unite and follow that leader whom just happens to agree with me, making me right.



_


----------



## ddraig (Feb 7, 2016)

Gromit said:


> I'm not telling anyone anything.
> 
> I've suggested a way of reclaiming a word.
> Its a way that would take some public figure to convince people it was the way forward and would require concerted effort by all those affected.
> ...


why do you think you are in a position to suggest? what makes you think you can understand in anyway whatsoever? and don't dare say anti Welsh prejudice again

"effort by those affected"? 
think about this and what it means for you as a white man to even 'suggest' to black people that they need to 'make an effort'

this isn't some pondering subject to "throw ideas up to the wind" ffs, it is a very real thing, a daily thing

no your ideas are not valid here as you have not and never will experience racism in the way black people do, because you are white
and that is not, however you dare say, in anyway racist, you fucking seriously offensive fuckwit
fuck off


----------



## Gromit (Feb 7, 2016)

ddraig said:


> why do you think you are in a position to suggest? what makes you think you can understand in anyway whatsoever? and don't dare say anti Welsh prejudice again
> 
> "effort by those affected"?
> think about this and what it means for you as a white man to even 'suggest' to black people that they need to 'make an effort'
> ...



You don't have to have been a horse to be a jockey.

Is a subjective opinion never valid then Ddraig? Do you always have to be personally affected to be able to use your brain to solve a problem?
You aren't black either so by your own argument your opinion ain't worth shit either.


----------



## ddraig (Feb 7, 2016)

Gromit said:


> You don't have to have been a horse to be a jockey.


see
this is why "fuck off" is a better response, you haven't addressed my points
because you are a prick or play at being a prick so often it is hard to tell

you don't take things on board, you don't realise your mistakes, you just keep coming up with shit to justify an unjustifiable viewpoint
whether it's for shits and giggles or because you actually believe it, it's fucked up

so fuck the fuck off


----------



## Gromit (Feb 7, 2016)

ddraig said:


> see
> this is why "fuck off" is a better response, you haven't addressed my points
> because you are a prick or play at being a prick so often it is hard to tell
> 
> ...




Actually I answered your points far fuller in one sentence than you ever do. i should have just followed your posting style answered with a two word Fuck off.


----------



## kittyP (Feb 7, 2016)

Gromit said:


> I'm not telling anyone anything.
> 
> I've suggested a way of reclaiming a word.
> Its a way that would take some public figure to convince people it was the way forward and would require concerted effort by all those affected.
> ...



You're either a nasty troll or utterly deluded. 
Either way what you've been posting is horrible to read.


----------



## ddraig (Feb 7, 2016)

Gromit said:


> Actually I answered your points far fuller in one sentence than you ever do. i should have just followed your posting style answered with a two word Fuck off.


no you didn't
you were a shithead irl too
fuck off


----------



## Gromit (Feb 7, 2016)

Fuck off.


----------



## Thimble Queen (Feb 7, 2016)

Gromit said:


> You don't have to have been a horse to be a jockey.



This is utter foul. I really hope you didnt mean what you've implied here. Either way just fuck off you horrible awful cunt.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Feb 7, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> Welsh isn't a race, it's a nationality.



Isn't race a social construct?


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 7, 2016)

Gromit said:


> You don't have to have been a horse to be a jockey.


This is openly mirroring the racist trope that _a dog born in a stable isn't a horse.
_
I don't know what's gone wrong in your life recently but i think you may have overstayed your welcome. Please leave.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Feb 7, 2016)

Gromit said:


> You don't have to have been a horse to be a jockey.


 Quite right, one can imagine themselves a jockey, one can sit astride the arm of a chair and furiously whip at the back and pretend they are winning the grand national...one can also think about racism, the use of language, history and imagine, 'i've got the answer' and then test their theory out with others...the feedback one gets is important. The resistance one demonstrates to learning from that feedback is also important. For fun or otherwise, why do you bother?


----------



## story (Feb 7, 2016)

Gromit said:


> Fuck off.



Are you hideously hungover, or still drunk?

Go back and read what you've been posting.


----------



## Gromit (Feb 7, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> This is openly mirroring the racist trope that _a dog born in a stable isn't a horse.
> _
> I don't know what's gone wrong in your life recently but i think you may have overstayed your welcome. Please leave.


No it isn't. It's a famous football quote by a top manager in answer to people questioning how he can manage professional football having never been a professional footballer himself. Google it.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 7, 2016)

Gromit said:


> No it isn't. It's a famous football quote by a top manager in answer to people questioning how he can manage professional football having never been a professional footballer himself. Google it.


You're now, after comparing yourself to the fuhrer, comparing yourself to mourinho? I don't know which is more self-deluded frankly.


----------



## eoin_k (Feb 7, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> This is openly mirroring the racist trope that _a dog born in a stable isn't a horse_
> ...


 Wasn't Wellington a duke rather than a dog.


----------



## Thimble Queen (Feb 7, 2016)

Ive reported several posts on this threads and mods dont seem to be listening. Can someone sort this shit out.


----------



## kittyP (Feb 7, 2016)

poptyping said:


> Ive reported several posts on this threads and mods dont seem to be listening. Can someone sort this shit out.


I have reported too.


----------



## Gromit (Feb 7, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> You're now, after comparing yourself to the fuhrer, comparing yourself to mourinho? I don't know which is more self-deluded frankly.


You didn't google it did you. Mourinho didn't say it and I'm comparing myself to no one.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Feb 7, 2016)

You are comparing yourself to some kind of 'leader'. Like you have had an original thought and are clear, despite the challenges/experiences/opinions to the contrary, that you are right. For shits and giggles, from delusion or ignorance, who knows?


----------



## MarkyMarrk (Feb 7, 2016)

I don't want him kicked off. I just want him laughed at and argued with. Which is what is happening. 
I think some people are in favour of just getting him kicked off, but I think that's a mistake - surely we should be in favour of free speech?


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 7, 2016)

Gromit said:


> You didn't google it did you. Mourinho didn't say it and I'm comparing myself to no one.


Of course i didn't google it - why on earth would i bother? Your use of the term was intended to mirror the racist trope - regardless of who brought it to your attention.

Sacchi is pretty much an open racist as well. Good call. What a coincidence.


----------



## Thimble Queen (Feb 7, 2016)

MarkyMarrk said:


> I don't want him kicked off. I just want him laughed at and argued with. Which is what is happening.
> I think some people are in favour of just getting him kicked off, but I think that's a mistake - surely we should be in favour of free speech?



Reporting someone doesnt neccessarily lead to a banning. But mods do need to be aware of this. Its not on.


----------



## ddraig (Feb 7, 2016)

MarkyMarrk said:


> I don't want him kicked off. I just want him laughed at and argued with. Which is what is happening.
> I think some people are in favour of just getting him kicked off, but I think that's a mistake - surely we should be in favour of free speech?


he's been doing it for years on any issue concerning women and sexism
and now this
it is tired and tiring shit, how much of it should people have to read?
and if he actually argued properly and had conviction then it would be different
imo


----------



## Orang Utan (Feb 7, 2016)

Nothing wrong with ejecting someone everyone is fed up with


----------



## MarkyMarrk (Feb 7, 2016)

But I liberally use the ignore button if I don't want to read what someone says - and then I can click if the thread doesn't make sense. I think it's dangerous ground to want people silenced.


----------



## Thimble Queen (Feb 7, 2016)

MarkyMarrk said:


> But I liberally use the ignore button if I don't want to read what someone says - and then I can click if the thread doesn't make sense. I think it's dangerous ground to want people silenced.



Have you read the guidelines of this community?


----------



## ddraig (Feb 7, 2016)

MarkyMarrk said:


> But I liberally use the ignore button if I don't want to read what someone says - and then I can click if the thread doesn't make sense. I think it's dangerous ground to want people silenced.


with respect you've been here for a year
plenty of people have engaged with his shit for years and years, he remains the same and disrupts loads of quite important threads
go have a look


----------



## Gromit (Feb 7, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Your use of the term was intended to mirror the racist trope - regardless of who brought it to your attention.
> 
> Sacchi is pretty much an open racist as well. Good call. What a coincidence.



No it wasn't fuck off. I said it so i know how it was intended. It was intended exactly how I stated that it was intended. To argue that you don't have to personal experience to have knowledge. It's just a snappier way of saying it, nothing more, nothing less so stop trying to make more out of it you shit stirring prick. 

I didn't know about his racist comments last year. I've pretty much been using that quote for a decade.


----------



## MarkyMarrk (Feb 7, 2016)

poptyping said:


> Have you read the guidelines of this community?


Yes. It doesn't change my view that I'm in favour of free speech.


----------



## MarkyMarrk (Feb 7, 2016)

ddraig said:


> with respect you've been here for a year
> plenty of people have engaged with his shit for years and years, he remains the same and disrupts loads of quite important threads
> go have a look



Not even a year.
Some people say the same about me, but I know I don't deliberately disrupt anything.


----------



## two sheds (Feb 7, 2016)

MarkyMarrk said:


> Yes. It doesn't change my view that I'm in favour of free speech.



Including this one? 

*



			Content-free posts are not permitted.
		
Click to expand...

*


> Posts containing nothing more than links to websites or video files are not permitted. Please explain the nature and relevance of the linked content as a courtesy to users. Do not post up large amounts of cut and paste text. Make things easier for others by summarising the article and including a link to the unabridged version.


----------



## Thimble Queen (Feb 7, 2016)

MarkyMarrk said:


> Yes. It doesn't change my view that I'm in favour of free speech.



Racism/racist language is against the guidelines that we all sign up to when we join here. Its not about banning free speech


----------



## kittyP (Feb 7, 2016)

People are free to say what they will. 
Just like we are free to tell them to fuck off outta here.


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## Orang Utan (Feb 7, 2016)

Showing someone the door for being a troll is not silencing them as they are free to take their bellendry elsewhere.


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## goldenecitrone (Feb 7, 2016)

I may be wrong, but I think Gromit's point is that the word 'queer' has been successfully reclaimed by gay people and can be used by both straight and gay people without causing offence if the term is used without malice. The same isn't true of the N-word. Black people can use it, but white people should never use it, as the word is too far gone to ever be reclaimed. Not too sure about the thicker skin business though.


----------



## story (Feb 7, 2016)

poptyping said:


> Racism/racist language is against the guidelines that we all sign up to when we join here. Its not about banning free speech



 The funny thing is, though, that he doesn't realise he's being racist, or sexist either, for that matter. It's funny because it's kinda like that casual racism thing, when people are racist in a kinda casual non commital thoughtless background way that they think isn't important, because they're not really racist at all.


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## story (Feb 7, 2016)

goldenecitrone said:


> I may be wrong, but I think Gromit's point is that the word 'queer' has been successfully reclaimed by gay people and can be used by both straight and gay people without causing offence if the term is used without malice. The same isn't true of the N-word. Black people can use it, but white people should never use it, as the word is too far gone to ever be reclaimed. Not too sure about the thicker skin business though.




I think the point is that it's not really up to a white person to tell black people what they should or shouldn't be doing or thinking or feeling about racism at all.


ETA
While I do use the word Queer when referring to gay folks, I'm always cautious and thoughtful about it, and never do it when I'm in company that might possibly be homophobic. I don't use the N-word, and I can't imagine doing so unless as a direct quote, and then with some kind of corral or explanation. For, like, for instance, when speaking of the US elections with a friend the other day, trying to characterise how some of the electorate feel, I did say "They just can't stand having a N- in the Whitehouse".


----------



## Gromit (Feb 7, 2016)

goldenecitrone said:


> I may be wrong, but I think Gromit's point is that the word 'queer' has been successfully reclaimed by gay people and can be used by both straight and gay people without causing offence if the term is used without malice. The same isn't true of the N-word. Black people can use it, but white people should never use it, as the word is too far gone to ever be reclaimed. Not too sure about the thicker skin business though.



You're not wrong.


----------



## story (Feb 7, 2016)

Gromit said:


> You're not wrong.




And the grow a thicker skin bit, Gromit ? You want to make that more sensible for us?


----------



## Thimble Queen (Feb 7, 2016)

story said:


> I think the point is that it's not really up to a white person to tell black people what they should or shouldn't be doing or thinking or feeling about racism at all.
> 
> 
> ETA
> While I do use the word Queer when referring to gay folks, I'm always cautious and thoughtful about it, and never do it when I'm in company that might possibly be homophobic. I don't use the N-word, and I can't imagine doing so unless as a direct quote, and then with some kind of corral or explanation. For instance, when speaking of the US elections with a friend the other day, trying to characterise how some of the electorate feel, I did say "They just can't stand having a N- in the Whitehouse".



I do think queer is slightly different though. Some people who might traditionally be refered to as bisexual self define as queer as an attempt to reject the binary... Queer is also an umbrella term, for someone.


Re n word... If i was your friend, I would've winced at that. Out of interest what colour skin does your friend have. Would you feel ok saying it in front of a black or brown mate?


----------



## story (Feb 7, 2016)

poptyping said:


> I dont think queer is slightly different though. Some people who might traditionally be refered to as bisexual self define as queer as an attempt to reject the binary... Queer is also an umbrella term also.
> 
> 
> Re n word... If i was your friend, I would've winced at that. Out of interest what colour skin does your friend have. Would you feel ok saying it in front of a black or brown mate?




Do or don't think that Queer is slightly different? 

I do think it's a somehow different. Although I'm not sure I fully understand why and how.

Yes, I said that line about a N- in the Whitehouse with the intent to shock, or make an impression, if I'm honest. Precisely because it is so vile. My friend is white, and has never visited the Deep South. I have often been there, because I have family from there. I remain shocked and disturbed by the ongoing apartheid and segregation that still exists down there, so I am not in the least bit surprised by the bigotry and furious self-righteous prejudice that is being displayed by those picking up on Trump. My friend was saying there's nothing to worry about; I was trying to impress on him how different it is over there, how backward some of the attitudes are, how entrenched the racism is, and how little we here grasp of their bigotry.

I'm not defending myself here, just being honest.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Feb 7, 2016)

> Not too sure about the thicker skin business though.



Really not sure?...imagine yourself telling someone you know to grow/develop a thicker skin.... Could you and do you imagine a scenario in which you would?[/QUOTE]


----------



## Gromit (Feb 7, 2016)

story said:


> I think the point is that it's not really up to a white person to tell black people what they should or shouldn't be doing or thinking or feeling about racism at all.



Really? You think the colour of a person's skin is  the key factor on whether or not they are entitled to an opinion on racism?

If Martin Luther King had been white and had said the exact same I have a dream speech you'd dismiss the content of that speech because he was white?

The Government department I worked in had white people working in its  Equality and Diversity department. They did a good job. One of the reasons they had white people working there was because black and asian people started complaining that just because they were black or Asian they were slotted into this Diversity role when they were interested in Agriculture or Economics n shit. Thanks all to this opinion that you can't understand equality and Diversity if you aren't a minority.

The irony is that to combat racism the attitudes that need to change belong to the majority (i.e. whites) not the minorities. This requires a two way conversation. Yet the majority are being excluded from the conversation because its being seen as being told what to do by the oppressors??? Don't people see the illogic of this?


----------



## goldenecitrone (Feb 7, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> Really not sure?...imagine yourself telling someone you know to grow/develop a thicker skin.... Could you and do you imagine a scenario in which you would?


[/QUOTE]

I meant that I wasn't sure what he meant by that exactly.


----------



## purenarcotic (Feb 7, 2016)

I am gay and hate the word queer. I wish it had never been 'reclaimed' as its vile.


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## ddraig (Feb 7, 2016)

Gromit said:


> Really? You think the colour of a person's skin is  the key factor on whether or not they are entitled to an opinion on racism?
> 
> If Martin Luther King had been white and had said the exact same I have a dream speech you'd dismiss the content of that speech because he was white?
> 
> ...


fuck off with your lies and fuckwittery
for fucks sake


----------



## story (Feb 7, 2016)

poptyping said:


> I do think queer is slightly different though. Some people who might traditionally be refered to as bisexual self define as queer as an attempt to reject the binary... Queer is also an umbrella term, for someone.
> 
> 
> Re n word... If i was your friend, I would've winced at that. Out of interest what colour skin does your friend have. Would you feel ok saying it in front of a black or brown mate?



Yes, I'd say it with a Black friend too, because they are aware of the ugly nasty racism that exists in the States, or really ought to be...?

I suppose it's a little bit like Germaine Greer telling women that they really need to understand how much men hate them.

Thinking about it, I doubt I'd say such a thing were I in the Deep South. So I do take your point.

I do occasionally ask my Black and Asian and Muslim friends about discrimination they've experienced. If I don't ask, they tend not to tell me, in much the same way that women tend not to flag up the daily grind of everyday sexism, and so it goes under the radar. I used to never ask or say anything, because I felt that by recognising that they were Black and I'm not, thence having a different experience to mine, then that itself was in some way discriminatory. But I spoke with one mate about it and realised that we'd all be better off if I were more aware and informed. I have to say that in the first instance I was really taken aback by some of the shit they told me. I'd had no idea of the daily constancy of it, how much black people have to just deal with it on a daily fucking basis. It's certainly made me more alert to it, and I have stepped in on occasion, if only to indicate some kind of awareness to the black sales assistant (for instance) that I recognise that the white person at the till was demonstrating some kind of casual racism.

(For instance, the White woman who declared that the woman who was serving her looked "just like Tina Turner" because she had a similar hairstyle to one of TT's incarnations.)


----------



## Gromit (Feb 7, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> Really not sure?...imagine yourself telling someone you know to grow/develop a thicker skin.... Could you and do you imagine a scenario in which you would?


[/QUOTE]

Gandhi told people to not just bare insults with dignity but actual physical violence. And they did. So no its not unimaginable. Fucking difficult I grant you.


----------



## story (Feb 7, 2016)

purenarcotic said:


> I am gay and hate the word queer. I wish it had never been 'reclaimed' as its vile.




I'll take that on board.


----------



## Thimble Queen (Feb 7, 2016)

story said:


> Do or don't think that Queer is slightly different?
> 
> I do think it's a somehow different. Although I'm not sure I fully understand why and how.
> 
> ...



I *do* think queer is different and edited my post once i noticed....

Thanks for being honest story, have always appreciated about you.


----------



## Thimble Queen (Feb 7, 2016)

purenarcotic said:


> I am gay and hate the word queer. I wish it had never been 'reclaimed' as its vile.



I identify as queer. Im sorry your so upset by it.


----------



## Gromit (Feb 7, 2016)

story said:


> I'd had no idea of the daily constancy of it, how much black people have to just deal with it on a daily fucking basis. It's certainly made me more alert to it, and I have stepped in on occasion, if only to indicate some kind of awareness to the black sales assistant (for instance) that I recognise that the white person at the till was demonstrating some kind of casual racism.
> 
> (For instance, the White woman who declared that the woman who was serving her looked "just like Tina Turner" because she had a similar hairstyle to one of TT's incarnations.)



Did they only ever mention white on black racism? 
When I used to work with a lot of black door to door sales people the black reps used to get me to help them with any asian customers. I asked them why once and they told me that white people would buy off them, black people would buy off them but asian people wouldn't buy off them without a white face present.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Feb 7, 2016)

Gromit said:


> Gandhi told people to not just bear insults with dignity but actual physical violence. And they did. So no its not unimaginable. Fucking difficult I grant you.



Pulling the Ghandi card?  Wow? Your post assumes I have ever wanted to or used violence and have no dignity? You believe you have an understanding of what might be difficult/easy for me?


----------



## story (Feb 7, 2016)

Gromit said:


> Really? You think the colour of a person's skin is  the key factor on whether or not they are entitled to an opinion on racism?
> 
> If Martin Luther King had been white and had said the exact same I have a dream speech you'd dismiss the content of that speech because he was white?
> 
> ...




Okay, first of all MLk wouldn't have needed to make that speech if he wasn't Black, so that's a spurious argument. If MLK had been white, he wouldn't have been MLK as we have him at all. That makes no sense.


Actually, Gromit , you need to be aware that the way you piss people off on threads about sexism is really really similar to the way you're annoying people here. You seem to be claiming to know and understand shit that you really really don't, and can't, because you're not a woman and you're not a non-white person. So your understanding of either of those experiences can only ever be objective, and thus cannot have any authority when you're in discussion with someone who is a woman/POC.


----------



## story (Feb 7, 2016)

poptyping said:


> I identify as queer. Im sorry your so upset by it.






Er... And I'll take that on board as well....


----------



## story (Feb 7, 2016)

Gromit said:


> Did they only ever mention white on black racism?
> When I used to work with a lot of black door to door sales people the black reps used to get me to help them with any asian customers. I asked them why once and they told me that white people would buy off them, black people would buy off them but asian people wouldn't buy off them without a white face present.




What are you chatting on about??

As a white person I have experienced racism from black people once or twice. It doesn't make any other racism less awful, it doesn't justify or excuse racism.

This is like those weirdos on the Phil Anselmo comments threads saying that he should be excused because white people in South Africa are having a hard time of it.


----------



## Gromit (Feb 7, 2016)

story said:


> Okay, first of all MLk wouldn't have needed to make that speech if he wasn't Black, so that's a spurious argument. If MLK had been white, he wouldn't have been MLK as we have him at all. That makes no sense.



Its hypothetical it doesn't have to make perfect sense. You didn't answer the question. The text itself. Only valid cause he was black? Or does it stand on its own two feet irrelevant of who said it? 

Crazily my search for a transcript of the speech has failed as its Copyrighted!!!!!


----------



## Gromit (Feb 7, 2016)

story said:


> What are you chatting on about??
> 
> As a white person I have experienced racism from black people once or twice. It doesn't make any other racism less awful, it doesn't justify or excuse racism.
> 
> This is like those weirdos on the Phil Anselmo comments threads saying that he should be excused because white people in South Africa are having a hard time of it.



Did anyone say it did? I was just curious as to whether it was white on black racism that was only on the minds of people you discussed it with or did they also mention asians?


----------



## Orang Utan (Feb 7, 2016)

Gromit said:


> Crazily my search for a transcript of the speech has failed as its Copyrighted!!!!!


I know he has me on ignore, so please pass this on to him. 
The first result on Google after a a search for 'transcript Martin Luther King I have a dream' yields what he claims he can't find.
So he's a liar, on top of all the terrible things he is.


----------



## story (Feb 7, 2016)

Gromit said:


> Did anyone say it did? I was just curious as to whether it was white on black racism that was only on the minds of people you discussed it with or did they also mention asians?



Okay, so what if we'd been talking about theoretical racism, Martian against Venusian. Or squids and shrimp and prawns.

What's your point, Gromit ?


----------



## Gromit (Feb 7, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> Pulling the Ghandi card?  Wow? Your post assumes I have ever wanted to or used violence and have no dignity? You believe you have an understanding of what might be difficult/easy for me?



I believe it would be difficult for most people to be told that hey these police are going to abuse you and hit you but just take it.
I don't know if you are or not most people (in this respect) so no i don't know if it would be difficult for you. But i still have an understanding that it would be difficult for most people.


----------



## Gromit (Feb 7, 2016)

story said:


> Okay, so what if we'd been talking about theoretical racism, Martian against Venusian. Or squids and shrimp and prawns.
> 
> What's your point, Gromit ?


I'll repeat myself. Just curious.

I don't always have to be making a point.


----------



## purenarcotic (Feb 7, 2016)

poptyping said:


> I identify as queer. Im sorry your so upset by it.



Life is full of things we don't like, what can you do.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Feb 7, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> Pulling the Ghandi card?  Wow? Your post assumes I have ever wanted to or used violence and have no dignity? You believe you have an understanding of what might be difficult/easy for me?




PS... I can completely imagine violence, I have always had a great repetroire of dealing with things but there have been moments...which for self preservation if I can avoid I do...and if you ever called me a nigger to my face whatever/whomever I want to be _could_ fall by the wayside and you would find yourself on your back or arse because something stronger than this intellect we are all dancing around might take over...equally, you could find yourself pinned against an invisible wall as verbal licks or silence would absolutely leave you to deal with you. You are not my responsibility.


----------



## Thimble Queen (Feb 7, 2016)

story said:


> Er... And I'll take that on board as well....


----------



## story (Feb 7, 2016)

Gromit said:


> Its hypothetical it doesn't have to make perfect sense. You didn't answer the question. The text itself. Only valid cause he was black? Or does it stand on its own two feet irrelevant of who said it?
> 
> Crazily my search for a transcript of the speech has failed as its Copyrighted!!!!!




Sorry, what question....

This one?



Gromit said:


> Really? You think the colour of a person's skin is  the key factor on whether or not they are entitled to an opinion on racism?
> 
> If Martin Luther King had been white and had said the exact same I have a dream speech you'd dismiss the content of that speech because he was white.?



Anyone of any colour at all is entitled to have an opinion about racism. That is self evident. Whether or not that opinion has weight or value depends on different factors. 

If I want to know what it's like to be on the receiving end of racism, I'm going to pay more attention to someone who's experienced it. That's not to say that someone like me - a white person who has only seldom been on the receiving end of racism - can't think it through, have an opinion and sometimes challenge or question the experience or opinions of others.

I'm entitled to that, I'm allowed to say to a Black person "I'm not sure that was racist..." and I'm allowed to engender a discussion, but I'm not allowed to decide what the POC feels or experiences or decides about that experience. I'm just not. I can still have an opinion that might differ, but I'm not allowed to be the one to chose and decide. Because I'm White. So really, I have no fucking clue about what it's like to be black, and what thousand yer trajectory has led to this person having this reaction on this day.


----------



## Gromit (Feb 7, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> PS... I can completely imagine violence, I have always had a great repetroire of dealing with things but there have been moments...which for self preservation if I can avoid I do...and if you ever called me a nigger to my face whatever/whomever I want to be _could_ fall by the wayside and you would find yourself on your back or arse because something stronger than this intellect we are all dancing around might take over...equally, you could find yourself pinned against an invisible wall as verbal licks or silence would absolutely leave you to deal with you. You are not my responsibility.



Your writing is usually very clear (better than many) but in this instance its a bit garbled. Can you clarify please what you are trying to say please?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Feb 7, 2016)

Gromit said:


> Did they only ever mention white on black racism?
> When I used to work with a lot of black door to door sales people the black reps used to get me to help them with any asian customers. I asked them why once and they told me that white people would buy off them, black people would buy off them but asian people wouldn't buy off them without a white face present.



Is that actually true?  Maybe.

In my experiences of sales, face to face especially, Black colleagues had the hardest time selling to White and then Asian people... There is a very interesting dynamic also about how, because of internalised racism, Black people also can/sometimes do question the 'status/validity/professionalism' of other Black people (no limited to sales either)... I don't intend to get into that with you though as you still haven't acknowledged how your whataboutism/generalisations etc earlier in the thread are casually racist. In short I can not trust you to understand and can't be bother to talk about something so very important with someone who has shown no regard for how and why these things are important.


----------



## story (Feb 7, 2016)

Gromit said:


> Did anyone say it did? I was just curious as to whether it was white on black racism that was only on the minds of people you discussed it with or did they also mention asians?



As I said in a previous post, I have also discussed this with Asian pals, yes.


----------



## Gromit (Feb 7, 2016)

story said:


> Sorry, what question....
> 
> This one?
> 
> ...



Now i'll 100% agree with that post. Thats kinda what i've been getting at but you've managed to express it better.


----------



## chilango (Feb 7, 2016)

Gromit said:


> Really? You think the colour of a person's skin is  the key factor on whether or not they are entitled to an opinion on racism?



Well, this is the point I was clumsily trying to make earlier.

Yes, we are entitled to "an opinion". Though "a perspective" would be a more useful way of phrasing it. But (and its a fucking big "but") it's a different perspective. Useful because of this, limited because of this.

It doesn't mean you can tell people how they should think/act/react. Only how you should think/act/react in your (very different) position.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Feb 7, 2016)

Gromit said:


> Your writing is usually very clear (better than many) but in this instance its a bit garbled. Can you clarify please what you are trying to say please?



My apologies. The way I see it I used the word 'and'  instead of 'but' once.

Feel free to read again. IMO nothing else needs clarifying/changing.

I can completely imagine violence, I have experienced my fair share yet have always had a great repetroire of dealing with things; but there have been moments of violence through word or physical too ...which for self preservation if I can avoid I do...*BUT*  if you ever called me a nigger to my face, whatever/whomever I want to be _could_ fall by the wayside and you would find yourself on your back or arse because something stronger than this intellect we are all dancing around might take over...equally, you could find yourself pinned against an invisible wall as verbal licks or silence would absolutely leave you to deal with you. You are not my responsibility.


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## Thimble Queen (Feb 7, 2016)

Fwiw its worth I'd love to see a strong black woman such as Rutita1 knock that fuck wit on his arse.


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## story (Feb 7, 2016)

Gromit said:


> Now i'll 100% agree with that post. Thats kinda what i've been getting at but you've managed to express it better.



Yikes!


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## Treacle Toes (Feb 7, 2016)

poptyping said:


> Fwiw its worth I'd love to see a strong black woman such as Rutita1 knock that fuck wit on his arse.



Thing is WIFE...I'd probably not be bothered to or want to cos I am very, very rarely violent in word or deed, nor do people generally become so fucking ignorant and goading in real life situations. 

I accept that when pushed I am most likely to give someone an absolute mouthful. Comparatively rare still though


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## Orang Utan (Feb 7, 2016)

story said:


> Yikes!


He wasn't trying to say anything like that at all!


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## Gromit (Feb 7, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> Is that actually true?  Maybe.



Cavity wall and loft insulation. 
The black reps preferred to go to areas with high black populations but really it made no difference to the sale figures.
The asian thing was definitely a factor though. I closed a few sales for people under those circumstances. Which was a rather generous of me to be honest because i never got any commission from it and they were eating into my sales time. Bit of a soft touch really. 

Asian sales were really easy for me come to think on it, a kind of reverse racism? A lot easier than to white people. They loved buying of a white guy for some reason?
I even sold to a guy in Hong Kong via Skype (interrupting his chat time with his son) after his wife let me in the house.


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## Thimble Queen (Feb 7, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> Thing is WIFE...I'd probably not be bothered to or want to cos I am very, very rarely violent in word or deed, nor do people generally become so fucking ignorant and goading in real life situations.
> 
> I accept that when pushed I am most likely to give someone an absolute mouthful. Comparatively rare still though



If he called you n word to your face you'd be well within your rights.

I hope no one is ever that much of a cunt to you x


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## Treacle Toes (Feb 7, 2016)

poptyping said:


> If he called you n word to your face you'd be well within your rights.
> 
> I hope no one is ever that much of a cunt to you x



It has happened...I'm no-one special in that regard. Regardless... this shit/his/these kind of arguments are irrelevant in the grand scheme and everyday realitys of this stuff...It's like conversing again with my 10 year old school mates...who, parroting from home/social input, felt it fine to call other people 'wogs' but felt the need to tell me 'not you, your different'. NOT YOU...sticks and stones... just be happy!


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## Thimble Queen (Feb 7, 2016)

I know that one mate x


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## ViolentPanda (Feb 7, 2016)

Gromit said:


> Do you have to be members of a monolithic institute or club to act in unison for the greater good by the way?



You don't *have* to be, but according to your comments about networking, it's better if you are.


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## ViolentPanda (Feb 7, 2016)

ddraig said:


> you don't have an argument, you are telling black people how they should act in the face of racism



Like saying that black people should learn how to "network" like Jews.



> you keep on doing it despite being corrected
> who the fuck do you think you are?



Someone who garners fun from trolling, so he probably thinks he's ern.


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## ViolentPanda (Feb 7, 2016)

Gromit said:


> You don't have to have been a horse to be a jockey.
> 
> Is a subjective opinion never valid then Ddraig? Do you always have to be personally affected to be able to use your brain to solve a problem?
> You aren't black either so by your own argument your opinion ain't worth shit either.



No, you need to have experienced being a jockey, to be a jockey.
Well done on a really odious comparison, though!


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## ViolentPanda (Feb 7, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> This is openly mirroring the racist trope that _a dog born in a stable isn't a horse.
> _
> I don't know what's gone wrong in your life recently but i think you may have overstayed your welcome. Please leave.



His life, or the boards?


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## Teenage Cthulhu (Feb 7, 2016)

ddraig said:


> you don't have an argument, you are telling black people how they should act in the face of racism
> you keep on doing it despite being corrected
> who the fuck do you think you are?



There were others doing that too although in a milder manner than this clown.


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## ViolentPanda (Feb 7, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> You are comparing yourself to some kind of 'leader'. Like you have had an original thought and are clear, despite the challenges/experiences/opinions to the contrary, that you are right. For shits and giggles, from delusion or ignorance, who knows?



Several years ago, when gromit posted under a different username, a couple of posters - no longer here - speculated that he was either a hyper-troll, or was a high-functioning "autistic", based on the fact that he seemed absolutely blind to most social cues. I've always favoured the former explanation, myself.


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## ViolentPanda (Feb 7, 2016)

two sheds said:


> Including this one?



Ouch!


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## ViolentPanda (Feb 7, 2016)

Gandhi told people to not just bare insults with dignity but actual physical violence. And they did. So no its not unimaginable. Fucking difficult I grant you.[/QUOTE]

IMO the Mahatma was a sociopath in some ways, offering his quasi-religious verities. His proscription of violence led to the death and injury of tens of thousands - or more - of pious Hindus under the _Raj_. Turning the other cheek in the - usually vain - hope that the hand punching you will tire, is a fool's solution when doing so just brings more violence down on you.


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## ViolentPanda (Feb 7, 2016)

Orang Utan said:


> I know he has me on ignore, so please pass this on to him.
> The first result on Google after a a search for 'transcript Martin Luther King I have a dream' yields what he claims he can't find.
> So he's a liar, on top of all the terrible things he is.



Quoted.


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## Magnus McGinty (Feb 8, 2016)

Teenage Cthulhu said:


> There were others doing that too although in a milder manner than this clown.



Exactly. Nobody was bothered when people were saying the OP wasn't black, gromit suggests people grow a thicker skin as a strategy and all hell breaks loose.


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## Treacle Toes (Feb 8, 2016)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Exactly. Nobody was bothered when people were saying the OP wasn't black, gromit suggests people grow a thicker skin as a strategy and all hell breaks loose.



I haven't read the whole thread tbh so haven't seen every comment made and far from all hell breaking loose, some of us have responded to the comments we have disagreed with in the last few pages...no need to exaggerate.

If you think comments on this thread have been overlooked that need to be addressed, quote them and bring them back into the discussion.


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## Magnus McGinty (Feb 8, 2016)

Instead of suggesting I do the leg work you could simply read the thread?


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## Treacle Toes (Feb 8, 2016)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Instead of suggesting I do the leg work you could simply read the thread?



So let's get this straight...you think there are comments earlier in this thread that are more worthy of discussion and make a snidely comment about it above.

I point out that I personally haven't seen those comments and invite you to bring them into the discussion, now you are suggesting I do 'the leg work' and go back and find these comments?

Why are you so reluctant to quote them yourself given you think they are important? Why do you assume you can tell me what I need to be responding to in this thread? Seems to me you want me to do the leg work for you at the same time as being really fucking patronising by assumng you know what I should be bothered with  discussing here.


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## Magnus McGinty (Feb 8, 2016)

[retracted]


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## chilango (Feb 8, 2016)

There's been some pretty prickish contributions to this thread. But that's up there with them.


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## Thimble Queen (Feb 8, 2016)

Magnus McGinty said:


> You can't be all that bothered about racism then.



Who the fuck are you?


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## Magnus McGinty (Feb 8, 2016)

The thread started with people downplaying the op's experiences with some people offering excuses and rationalising it on his behalf. When I challenged that people justified it by suggesting the op isn't actually black. This was largely ignored by those now savaging gromit is my point.


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## chilango (Feb 8, 2016)

Magnus McGinty said:


> The thread started with people downplaying the op's experiences with some people offering excuses and rationalising it on his behalf. When I challenged that people justified it by suggesting the op isn't actually black. This was largely ignored by those now savaging gromit is my point.



People questioned the credibility of the poster based on his posting record here. People also suggested some alternative explanations (other than racism) for what was alleged to have been said.

That's no basis for accusing Rutita1 of not being "bothered about racism"  Rather it is a cheap slur aimed at riling her. Low behaviour imo. On a par with anything you're accusing others of.


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## The Boy (Feb 8, 2016)

Magnus McGinty said:


> The thread started with people downplaying the op's experiences with some people offering excuses and rationalising it on his behalf. When I challenged that people justified it by suggesting the op isn't actually black. This was largely ignored by those now savaging gromit is my point.


This thread was started in 2014. It was bumped by a troll, which is when you came in.


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## Magnus McGinty (Feb 8, 2016)

The Boy said:


> This thread was started in 2014. It was bumped by a troll, which is when you came in.



I meant from the bump. Happy to clarify.


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## Magnus McGinty (Feb 8, 2016)

chilango said:


> People questioned the credibility of the poster based on his posting record here. People also suggested some alternative explanations (other than racism) for what was alleged to have been said.
> 
> That's no basis for accusing Rutita1 of not being "bothered about racism"  Rather it is a cheap slur aimed at riling her. Low behaviour imo. On a par with anything you're accusing others of.



Fair enough. I'll retract that then.


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## chilango (Feb 8, 2016)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Fair enough. I'll retract that then.



Thank you.


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## Treacle Toes (Feb 8, 2016)

poptyping said:


> Who the fuck are you?



Thank you for quoting it. I was on my way to work and would have missed it otherwise.



> Magnus McGinty said: ↑
> You can't be all that bothered about racism then.



IME, another way that casual racism manifests is that some White people believe they have the right and reason to dictate how and when racism is discussed. Some people are  manipulative and patronising in the way they demand I/others focus on the things they believe are the 'most' important. They impose a hierarchy and expect us to conform to it. They shout 'jump' and expect me to answer 'how high?' If we don't they throw their proverbial toys out of the pram and have the audacity to tell us that we don't actually care about racism.

I could go into how and why you are wrong...for example, the ways in which this weekend and today I was/will be caring about racism, the very reasons why I was not sitting around at home and able to read this thread  to the extent you demand I ought've. I could also go into a long spill about how despite your expectations to the contrary I manage to live a life in which racism does not invade my every thought and deed. IT does not define me, in the same way neither you or anyone else will ever get away with telling me what to do and how to be.

Not only have you done that here, you have also mirrored Gromit's subjective ignorance and you have taken it a step further...



> Fair enough. I'll retract that then.



Another common experience I have is that some White people will only retract or back down if challenged by others, usually other White people, but not because they actually learn to appreciate why/how they don't get to tell Black people what to do and how to feel about racism, they just realise they are not gonna get away with it this time.

This kind of retraction meets nothing to me. It doesn't change the fact that you don't trust me, think you know better, have not learnt anything about how _you_ actually do and don't interact with racism. It's clearly not your problem.

You position yourself outside of it and give orders. You expect me to do the work for you and then abuse me because I don't obey...the parallels are blinding, but nothing fucking new.


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## Magnus McGinty (Feb 8, 2016)

You've echoed perfectly the points I was making earlier in the thread. So we're in agreement then.


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## Treacle Toes (Feb 8, 2016)

Magnus McGinty said:


> You've echoed perfectly the points I was making earlier in the thread. So we're in agreement then.



Get to fuck.  I haven't echoed you, I have reflected on your behaviour towards me and highlighted where you yourself are not adverse to indulging (conciously or not) in casual racism.


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## Magnus McGinty (Feb 8, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> Get to fuck.  I haven't echoed you, I have reflected on your behaviour towards me and highlighted where you yourself are not adverse to indulging (conciously or not) in casual racism.



Where have I indulged in casual racism?


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## Magnus McGinty (Feb 8, 2016)

You mean pointing out your eagerness for me to do the leg work regarding earlier comments in this thread? How is that even remotely racist?


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## Orang Utan (Feb 8, 2016)

What's the difference between racism and casual racism?
Do casual racists wear tracksuits?


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## two sheds (Feb 8, 2016)

Someone complaining about other peoples' casual racism while himself indulging in casual racism   . Beyond parody.


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## Magnus McGinty (Feb 8, 2016)

two sheds said:


> Someone complaining about other peoples' casual racism while himself indulging in casual racism   . Beyond parody.



Where was my casual racism?


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## DotCommunist (Feb 8, 2016)

Orang Utan said:


> What's the difference between racism and casual racism?
> Do casual racists wear tracksuits?


racist on weekends and evenings, some bank holidays


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## two sheds (Feb 8, 2016)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Where was my casual racism?



You made an accusation:



Magnus McGinty said:


> Exactly. Nobody was bothered when people were saying the OP wasn't black, gromit suggests people grow a thicker skin as a strategy and all hell breaks loose.



That Rutita asked you to back up. Instead of backing it up - as would be the normal procedure since you made the accusation - you replied: 



> You can't be all that bothered about racism then.


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## Magnus McGinty (Feb 8, 2016)

two sheds said:


> You made an accusation:
> 
> 
> 
> That Rutita asked you to back up. Instead of backing it up - as would be the normal procedure since you made the accusation - you replied:



That isn't what happened at all. Rutita admitted they hadn't read the whole thread, they didn't ask me to back anything up like you are claiming. They said I should quote sections of the thread to bring to their attention which struck me as lazy when they could just read the thread.

Why are you making things up?


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## two sheds (Feb 8, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> If you think comments on this thread have been overlooked that need to be addressed, quote them and bring them back into the discussion.



I'd say that is asking you to back up what you said.


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## Magnus McGinty (Feb 8, 2016)

two sheds said:


> I'd say that is asking you to back up what you said.



No, it's asking me to shit stir instead of just reading the thread. I fail to see how that's casually racist either way though?


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## Treacle Toes (Feb 8, 2016)

_If only Black people spoke the same language as me then I might understand them._


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## Magnus McGinty (Feb 8, 2016)

Who are you quoting there, Rutita?


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## two sheds (Feb 8, 2016)

Magnus McGinty said:


> No, it's asking me to shit stir instead of just reading the thread. I fail to see how that's casually racist either way though?





> If you think comments on this thread have been overlooked that need to be addressed, quote them and bring them back into the discussion.



How is that asking you to shit stir? Not even close. 

Making things up to accuse someone of making things up. "Beyond parody."


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## Treacle Toes (Feb 8, 2016)

Magnus McGinty said:


> No, it's asking me to shit stir instead of just reading the thread.



You demand I read and deal with some comments you have read, think are important etc. I tell you to quote them and deal with them and that's asking you to shit stir and evidence that I don't care about racism?

IME, another way that casual racism manifests is the double standards some White people try to impose on me. If I'm not doing what they say I should be, I am doing something wrong. Racism is not their problem, they demand I deal with it.

I clearly outlined the ways in which you have engaged (conciously or not) in casual racism on this thread and you simply ignored it. You didn't even respond to it other than some shit about how I was 'echoing' you. Even where I have taken the time to try and help you understand why this shit is not acceptable you still try to assume authority.

Any wonder why most of us don't bother engaging with bullshit like this?


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## Magnus McGinty (Feb 8, 2016)

So you're arguing from a position that assumes I know your race and you mine?

Anyway. My comments weren't race specific/relevant. You admitted you hadn't read the thread and I was engaging with that admission. Wish I hadn't bothered now tbh.


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## Magnus McGinty (Feb 8, 2016)

Your view did express what I had been arguing earlier in the thread but never mind.


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## ViolentPanda (Feb 8, 2016)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Exactly. Nobody was bothered when people were saying the OP wasn't black, gromit suggests people grow a thicker skin as a strategy and all hell breaks loose.



Out comes the wooden spoon again.


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## Teenage Cthulhu (Feb 8, 2016)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Exactly. Nobody was bothered when people were saying the OP wasn't black, gromit suggests people grow a thicker skin as a strategy and all hell breaks loose.



An apology would go a long way, I don't believe there was any malice or intent to hurt but it was grossly insensitive and arrogant. Especially the "why" bit, I mean do we really need to explain why?

Best to remember it and move on.


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