# remember that MI6 guy found rotting in a sports bag?



## DotCommunist (Mar 30, 2012)

No fingerprints, no forensics.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-17562112
there is a thread on this from the time but I cannot find it, my search terms are not throwing anything up.

I was doing this face at the time 

the phone/simm card shenanigans had me doing so, as did the touted idea that he might have climbed ito the bag, zipped it and then topped himself. I mean come on.


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## Pickman's model (Mar 30, 2012)

yes, i remember the case.


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## Pickman's model (Mar 30, 2012)

anyway you can't have tried very fucking hard because all you needed to do was search his name and up it popped.
http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/british-spy-murdered-in-london.258311/


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 30, 2012)

DotCommunist said:


> No fingerprints, no forensics.
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-17562112
> there is a thread on this from the time but I cannot find it, my search terms are not throwing anything up.
> ...


 
Yeah, saw that on the news earlier.  How many people zip themselves into a bag to top themselves eh?


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## Barking_Mad (Mar 30, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Yeah, saw that on the news earlier.  How many people zip themselves into a bag to top themselves eh?



Maybe he was retraining as an escapologist and the zip got stuck?


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## Anonymous1 (Mar 30, 2012)

DotCommunist said:


> as did the touted idea that he might havve climbed ito the bag, zipped it and then topped himself. I mean come on.


 
Saw it mentioned today on Sky news about the now missing DNA.
Got to admit my mate and i had a good chuckle as they said the CPS now think it's unlikely he zipped himself into the bag.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 30, 2012)

Barking_Mad said:


> Maybe he was retraining as an escapologist and the zip got stuck?


 
Good point.  Spies can get themselves into all sorts of situations so probably a handy skill


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## DotCommunist (Mar 30, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> anyway you can't have tried very fucking hard because all you needed to do was search his name and up it popped.
> http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/british-spy-murdered-in-london.258311/


 
suck my balls


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## Spanky Longhorn (Mar 30, 2012)

Maybe a family's spy had a litter of little spies so they stuck some of them in bags and were going to chuck them in the river because they couldn't find new homes for all of them.


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## fiannanahalba (Mar 31, 2012)

An open and shut case. Its in the bag.


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## teqniq (Mar 31, 2012)

It was all completely dodge at the time, even more so now. But I fully expect this to go nowhere fast.


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## stuff_it (Mar 31, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> yes, i remember the case.


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## Riklet (Mar 31, 2012)

Spooky...


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## Firky (Mar 31, 2012)

I remember how they were looking into a possible suicide, aye right. And Dr Dave Kelly just happened to top himself on the eve of his daughter's wedding shortly after saying we don't need to go and invade Iraq because there's no WMD just a factory making titty milk for babies.


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## StoneRoad (Mar 31, 2012)

and wasn't the locked and zipped up bag found in the bath ?? 

very, very unlikely to be do-able by him-self


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## Ax^ (Mar 31, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Yeah, saw that on the news earlier.  How many people zip themselves into a bag to top themselves eh?




Did he not get in it and zip it up as it seemed a fun place to have a  wank...


Or was that media hyperbole..

*raises eyebrow*


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## Spanky Longhorn (Mar 31, 2012)

weird fetishes are not my bag


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## butchersapron (Mar 31, 2012)

Phil strikes again. Or ben.


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## Roadkill (Mar 31, 2012)

I feel most for the poor sod's family tbh. Realising that he was murdered in highly dodgy circumstances, that they may well never find out why or by whom, and that everything's surrounded by a thick cloak of official secrecy and likely to remain that way, must have been awful.

It's hardly a surprise to hear that he didn't lock himself in the bag and therefore that it wasn't some kind of wanking accident, and I've never really believed the insinuation that it might have been some kind of sexual caper with anyone else either. If that were the case, you'd expect there to be evidence: not many people are going to be sufficiently clear-headed after killing someone inadvertently to dispose of every trace of their presence right down to DNA, and leave without being so much as seen looking flustered in the street, least of all from a flat owned by the intelligence services which you'd expect at least to have a camera on the front door. Yesterday's suggestions that he was killed by someone versed in the 'dark arts of the security services' and that it may be 'linked' to his work with MI6 or at GCHQ are probably stating the obvious IMO. A plausible theory of who and why would be more interesting.


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## equationgirl (Mar 31, 2012)

Roadkill said:


> I feel most for the poor sod's family tbh. Realising that he was murdered in highly dodgy circumstances, that they may well never find out why or by whom, and that everything's surrounded by a thick cloak of official secrecy and likely to remain that way, must have been awful.
> 
> It's hardly a surprise to hear that he didn't lock himself in the bag and therefore that it wasn't some kind of wanking accident, and I've never really believed the insinuation that it might have been some kind of sexual caper with anyone else either. If that were the case, you'd expect there to be evidence: not many people are going to be sufficiently clear-headed after killing someone inadvertently to dispose of every trace of their presence right down to DNA, and leave without being so much as seen looking flustered in the street, least of all from a flat owned by the intelligence services which you'd expect at least to have a camera on the front door. Yesterday's suggestions that he was killed by someone versed in the 'dark arts of the security services' and that it may be 'linked' to his work with MI6 or at GCHQ are probably stating the obvious IMO. *A plausible theory of who and why would be more interesting*.


 
Unless it's made public what his work was, I think that's unlikely, but usual theory would be that he was going to turn whistleblower about something and got 'taken care of'. The complete lack of evidence at his flat - except for anything that could be traced back to the forensics team - certainly suggests a forensically aware person was at the flat around or after the time of his death. 

What surprised me was that the coroner said so publicly - any other time it's been flat denials of any such thing and some kind of implausible suicide 'explanation'.


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## Roadkill (Mar 31, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> Unless it's made public what his work was, I think that's unlikely, but usual theory would be that he was going to turn whistleblower about something and got 'taken care of'. The complete lack of evidence at his flat - except for anything that could be traced back to the forensics team - certainly suggests a forensically aware person was at the flat around or after the time of his death.


 
I agree: we're not likely to be able to do anything other than speculate any time soon.

There are other theories about who that forensically aware person - or persons, I suppose - might have been though, ranging from someone working for a foreign intelligence agency to some kind of rogue within the British intelligence services. It's all rather John le Carre, really. There's also been a bit of vague talk about organised crime and/or terrorism.



> What surprised me was that the coroner said so publicly - any other time it's been flat denials of any such thing and some kind of implausible suicide 'explanation'.


 
She hasn't really said much yet, aside from berating the forensics lab for its apparent 'error' with the one piece of DNA evidence, which it found after a year had come from one of its own staff. It was the family's lawyer who talked about 'dark arts' and hinted at a cover-up. The inquest is going to be interesting: there's a great deal that cannot or will not be aired, but the coroner is relatively independent in her own terms and it might at least help to establish the facts about his death and clear away some of the disinformation.


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## equationgirl (Mar 31, 2012)

Roadkill said:


> I agree: we're not likely to be able to do anything other than speculate any time soon.
> 
> There are other theories about who that forensically aware person - or persons, I suppose - might have been though, ranging from someone working for a foreign intelligence agency to some kind of rogue within the British intelligence services. It's all rather John le Carre, really. There's also been a bit of vague talk about organised crime and/or terrorism.
> 
> She hasn't really said much yet, aside from berating the forensics lab for its apparent 'error' with the one piece of DNA evidence, which it found after a year had come from one of its own staff. It was the family's lawyer who talked about 'dark arts' and hinted at a cover-up. The inquest is going to be interesting: there's a great deal that cannot or will not be aired, but the coroner is relatively independent in her own terms and it might at least help to establish the facts about his death and clear away some of the disinformation.


 
Not sure I'm convinced the finger print evidence wasn't contrived to be honest. And if coroners are independent why did David Kelly's death get reported as a suicide?


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## Roadkill (Mar 31, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> Not sure I'm convinced the finger print evidence wasn't contrived to be honest. And if coroners are independent why did David Kelly's death get reported as a suicide?


 
There never was a Coroner's inquest for David Kelly - just the Hutton report.  There's still a campaign for one, but the High Court threw it out last year.

As for Williams, I share your suspicions about the dna - among other things.


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## equationgirl (Mar 31, 2012)

Roadkill said:


> There never was a Coroner's inquest for David Kelly - just the Hutton report. There's still a campaign for one, but the High Court threw it out last year.
> 
> As for Williams, I share your suspicions about the dna - among other things.


Ah, sorry, Hutton Report, that's what I'm thinking of. 

Did you watch the Channel 4 docudrama about David Kelly? It was very good, made me think about a few things.


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## Jazzz (Apr 1, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> Not sure I'm convinced the finger print evidence wasn't contrived to be honest. And if coroners are independent why did David Kelly's death get reported as a suicide?


It's worth again saying that Dr Kelly _never had a coroner's inquest_! Outrageously, his inquest was subsumed into the Hutton Inquiry. Had he had a coroner's inquest, the cause of his death would have been determined by a jury.


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## goldenecitrone (Apr 1, 2012)

Jazzz said:


> It's worth again saying that Dr Kelly _never had a coroner's inquest_! Outrageously, his inquest was subsumed into the Hutton Inquiry. Had he had a coroner's inquest, the cause of his death would have been determined by a jury.


 
And they would have said it was suicide.


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## equationgirl (Apr 1, 2012)

goldenecitrone said:


> And they would have said it was suicide.


Well, maybe not. Looks like we'll never know.


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## equationgirl (Apr 1, 2012)

Jazzz said:


> It's worth again saying that Dr Kelly _never had a coroner's inquest_! Outrageously, his inquest was subsumed into the Hutton Inquiry. Had he had a coroner's inquest, the cause of his death would have been determined by a jury.


It might have been worth saying twice, but not sure my post was worth quoting twice!


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## twentythreedom (Apr 1, 2012)

there was all that shiz about sim cards and phones laid out on bagman's table... wtf was that about? I reckon Putin is behind all this. Probably Mandelson, a Rothschild and Deripaska too.


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## DotCommunist (Apr 1, 2012)

I annoys me that I will likely go to my grave not knowing who done him and why.

I know compared to the families feelings my mild annoyance is the mustard seed vs the mountain but still.

I MUST KNOW


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## yardbird (Apr 1, 2012)

twentythreedom said:


> there was all that shiz about sim cards and phones laid out on bagman's table... wtf was that about? I reckon Putin is behind all this. Probably Mandelson, a Rothschild and Deripaska too.


Murdoch ?


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## ViolentPanda (Apr 1, 2012)

twentythreedom said:


> there was all that shiz about sim cards and phones laid out on bagman's table... wtf was that about? I reckon Putin is behind all this. Probably Mandelson, a Rothschild and Deripaska too.


 
What a bunch of dirty Jews and crypto-Jews they are, too!!


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## Casually Red (Apr 1, 2012)

Roadkill said:


> I feel most for the poor sod's family tbh. Realising that he was murdered in highly dodgy circumstances, that they may well never find out why or by whom, and that everything's surrounded by a thick cloak of official secrecy and likely to remain that way, must have been awful.
> 
> It's hardly a surprise to hear that he didn't lock himself in the bag and therefore that it wasn't some kind of wanking accident, and I've never really believed the insinuation that it might have been some kind of sexual caper with anyone else either. If that were the case, you'd expect there to be evidence: not many people are going to be sufficiently clear-headed after killing someone inadvertently to dispose of every trace of their presence right down to DNA, and leave without being so much as seen looking flustered in the street, least of all from a flat owned by the intelligence services which you'd expect at least to have a camera on the front door. Yesterday's suggestions that he was killed by someone versed in the 'dark arts of the security services' and that it may be 'linked' to his work with MI6 or at GCHQ are probably stating the obvious IMO. A plausible theory of who and why would be more interesting.


 
the closest thing your going to find to a smoking gun in this instance is who was the spooky cunt who whispered the sexual wanky perv tranny element into the journos ears . It seems highly likely it was his own side who whacked him and then introduced all this smoke and mirror shit for the public to to be diverted/entertained with .


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## StraightOuttaQ (Apr 1, 2012)

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/crime/forensic-dna-blunder-hindered-spy-in-bag-investigation-for-a-year-7603447.html

The shocking thing to me about this, at this point, is the DNA contamination caused by lowest bidding contractor. The demise of the FSS means that essentially, shoddy work by the private sector has led to the police wasting a year on a false, and totally avoidable lead. In essence, the outsourcing of this to the private sector has wasted a year of police time and cost the taxpayer millions and millions in wasted resources. Now, the FSS was losing £2million a month, but compared to a debacle like this and the errors in justice and compensation that will result...keeping the FSS going would have a 'preventative' cost (ie preventing miscarriages of justice) that no spreadsheet will ever reflect. This foolhardy govt can't and won't see that. 

Even if the political will to find the killer(s) exists, the evidence is now so tampered with and contaminated with as to be worthless. It will never be solved, and millions have to spunked on the wall on an investigation that was corrupted from the start by penny pinching. Way to go, Tories. Way to go. And on the day the FFS closed for good, its replacement is show up to be utterly useless. 

Another triumph for the free market though :-D


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## DotCommunist (Apr 1, 2012)

You'd think if it was his own they would be more efficient and disappear him in a manner that was not so obviously dodgy as fuck.


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## Casually Red (Apr 1, 2012)

DotCommunist said:


> You'd think if it was his own they would be more efficient and disappear him in a manner that was not so obviously dodgy as fuck.


 
possibly providing they were remotely concerned about ever being caught or held acccountable.


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## teqniq (Apr 1, 2012)

DotCommunist said:


> You'd think if it was his own they would be more efficient and disappear him in a manner that was not so obviously dodgy as fuck.


Warning to others and all that.


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## StraightOuttaQ (Apr 1, 2012)

teqniq said:


> Warning to others and all that.


 Just disappearing is no deterrent. Locking yourself into a sportsbag and locking it from the outside - thus, violating the laws of physics, except if you can walk through walls - before committing suicide? Now that sends a strong, powerful, unequivocal message. And that message is, as far as I can determine, is "Don't fuck with MI6".


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## kenny g (Apr 2, 2012)

StraightOuttaQ said:


> Just disappearing is no deterrent. Locking yourself into a sportsbag and locking it from the outside - thus, violating the laws of physics, except if you can walk through walls - before committing suicide? Now that sends a strong, powerful, unequivocal message. And that message is, as far as I can determine, is "Don't fuck with MI6".


 
If that is the case. Maybe he is not dead?


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## Citizen66 (Apr 2, 2012)

DotCommunist said:


> suck my balls



Searching thread titles is hair pulling stuff. Like pickmans intimated, better to search posts with something specific that may have been mentioned regarding the topic, that can help lead to the thread.


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## JimW (Apr 2, 2012)

I reckon his colleagues put him in the bag ready to smuggle him somewhere super-secret then went for a pub lunch and he slipped their mind. Nothing suspicious about it.


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## StraightOuttaQ (Apr 2, 2012)

kenny g said:


> If that is the case. Maybe he is not dead?


 
I think we can be pretty conclusive about the fact that he is dead. However, if he had quite disappeared, well - Perhaps I should clarify ; a lot of people disappear every year, they become missing persons, they don't make the front page of the news.

That doesn't get the message across. Something utterly, truly bizarre like this however, does get the message across - to every front page. And that message is, as I said before, simple. And thats much more effective than just disappearing. Because anyone whose tempted to cross them soon learns that they won't get any further than a murdered in a violent, bizarre and inexplicable manner.


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## discokermit (Apr 3, 2012)

StraightOuttaQ said:


> "Don't fuck with MI6".


looks more like a message to mi6, maybe?


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## DaveCinzano (Apr 3, 2012)

StraightOuttaQ said:


> spunked on the wall


 
That's a very visual metaphor for private sector forensic science.


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## Spanky Longhorn (Apr 3, 2012)

kenny g said:


> If that is the case. Maybe he is not dead?


 
he exists in an uncertain state both dead and alive, if you unzip the bag you remove the uncertainty though.


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## trevhagl (Apr 3, 2012)

i think he zipped up the bag himself when dead


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## Roadkill (Apr 3, 2012)

Casually Red said:


> the closest thing your going to find to a smoking gun in this instance is who was the spooky cunt who whispered the sexual wanky perv tranny element into the journos ears . It seems highly likely it was his own side who whacked him and then introduced all this smoke and mirror shit for the public to to be diverted/entertained with .


 
Maybe, and but I suspect not. It wouldn't surprise me to hear there'd been some disinformation circulated about his sexuality for some reason, but that needn't imply he was actually killed by a member of the British security services.  Nor am I at all convinced by the suggestion that MI6 did it in the way it was done to send a message: there are other ways of doing that, without attracting all of the publicity it did, which the security services are usually fairly keen to avoid. If anything, discokermit's suggestion that it was done to send a message _to_ them is more plausible. IMO though the idea that the manner of his death was intended to send a message at all is quite possibly a red herring. It's more likely that he was simply put in the bag as a - successful - means of delaying discovery and destroying evidence. By whom is another matter, but I'm inclined to believe it was someone working either for a foreign intelligence service, or possibly with links to organised crime, since that appears to have been the focus of his most recent work. Whatever the exact nature of Gareth Williams's work at GCHQ and MI6, it very probably gave someone, somewhere cause to want him out of the way.


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## StraightOuttaQ (Apr 3, 2012)

DaveCinzano said:


> That's a very visual metaphor for private sector forensic science.


 
 And also, a description of a sordid crime scene. Ah, language you are a beautiful thing :-D


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## DotCommunist (Apr 25, 2012)

http://www.onenewspage.co.uk/n/UK/74r75fxmg/Gareth-Williams-inquest-hears-of-other-person.htm

curioser and curioser.

I don't think anyone in the entire world still entertains the idea that he padlocked himself into the bag.


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## Brixton Hatter (Apr 25, 2012)

^^Absolutely.


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## Brixton Hatter (Apr 25, 2012)

Roadkill said:


> Maybe, and but I suspect not. It wouldn't surprise me to hear there'd been some disinformation circulated about his sexuality for some reason, but that needn't imply he was actually killed by a member of the British security services. Nor am I at all convinced by the suggestion that MI6 did it in the way it was done to send a message: there are other ways of doing that, without attracting all of the publicity it did, which the security services are usually fairly keen to avoid. If anything, discokermit's suggestion that it was done to send a message _to_ them is more plausible. IMO though the idea that the manner of his death was intended to send a message at all is quite possibly a red herring. It's more likely that he was simply put in the bag as a - successful - means of delaying discovery and destroying evidence. By whom is another matter, but I'm inclined to believe it was someone working either for a foreign intelligence service, or possibly with links to organised crime, since that appears to have been the focus of his most recent work. Whatever the exact nature of Gareth Williams's work at GCHQ and MI6, it very probably gave someone, somewhere cause to want him out of the way.


This^^ I think is spot on.


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## Citizen66 (Apr 25, 2012)

DotCommunist said:


> http://www.onenewspage.co.uk/n/UK/74r75fxmg/Gareth-Williams-inquest-hears-of-other-person.htm
> 
> curioser and curioser.
> 
> I don't think anyone in the entire world still entertains the idea that he padlocked himself into the bag.



But they needed several months and great expense to actually *prove* he didn't lock himself in the bag. There aren't enough  s in the world.


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## silverfish (Apr 25, 2012)

DotCommunist said:


> You'd think if it was his own they would be more efficient and disappear him in a manner that was not so obviously dodgy as fuck.


 
They couldn't have left it in a more WTF scenario if they'd tried 

Unless the bag was just for transport to some shallow grave in the woods or the bottom of the sea and it slipped their (the professional hitmen) minds and forgot to take it/him


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## DaveCinzano (Apr 25, 2012)

_It is 2am in a darkened wood, somewhere in the North Downs._

_A nondescript estate car putters along a bridlepath. Its headlights are turned off._

_The driver cuts the engine and coasts down an overgrown, scrubby forester's track, coming to a halt in a secluded grove._

*Gets out of car*

*Walks round to boot*

*Pats down pockets*

"Wallet...keys...lockpicking kit...untraceable mobile phone, switched off, of course...ah yes, latex gloves..."

*Opens boot*

*Looks in boot, empty but for a shovel*

"Oh fuck."


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## mauvais (Apr 25, 2012)

DaveCinzano said:


> _It is 2am in a darkened wood, somewhere in the North Downs._
> 
> _A nondescript estate car putters along a bridlepath. Its headlights are turned off._
> 
> ...


You wouldn't turn the engine off because you would lose power steering and braking assistance.


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## DaveCinzano (Apr 25, 2012)

Only a cunt needs "power steering and braking assistance".


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## mauvais (Apr 25, 2012)

_And_ you're not allowed to drive on bridleways. Countryside and Rights of Way Act 2000.


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## wayward bob (Apr 25, 2012)

mauvais said:


> _And_ you're not allowed to drive on bridleways. Countryside and Rights of Way Act 2000.


 
well in that case it's obviously a _ridiculous_ scenario


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## quimcunx (Apr 25, 2012)

no mention of a seatbelt either I notice.


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## teqniq (Apr 25, 2012)

DaveCinzano said:


> Only a cunt needs "power steering and braking assistance".


In which case we are all cunts as all modern cars have servo-assisted brakes. 

/pedant mode


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## mauvais (Apr 25, 2012)

The driver should also take heed of The Road Vehicles Lighting Regulations 1989, part III, section 24, which requires that he ensure all sidelights and rear registration plate lights are lit between sunset and sunrise, and indeed that he use headlights at night, except on a road which has lit street lighting. It strikes this correspondent that the latter exemption does not seem likely to apply in the aforementioned scenario.


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## 5t3IIa (Apr 25, 2012)

DaveCinzano said:


> _It is 2am in a darkened wood, somewhere in the North Downs._
> 
> ...
> 
> "Oh fuck."


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## wayward bob (Apr 25, 2012)

what _are_ the road traffic regulations with regard to transporting dead spies in your boot? enquiring minds want to know


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## mauvais (Apr 25, 2012)

wayward bob said:


> what _are_ the road traffic regulations with regard to transporting dead spies in your boot? enquiring minds want to know


A number of factors may apply. Perhaps most importantly:



> you *MUST* secure your load and it *MUST NOT* stick out dangerously. Make sure any heavy or sharp objects and any animals are secured safely. If there is a collision, they might hit someone inside the vehicle and cause serious injury


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## wayward bob (Apr 25, 2012)

securing the load = padlock on the bag


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## SpookyFrank (Apr 25, 2012)

wayward bob said:


> what _are_ the road traffic regulations with regard to transporting dead spies in your boot? enquiring minds want to know


 
As long as your dead spy disposal business is VAT registered you shouldn't have too much trouble.


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## DaveCinzano (Apr 25, 2012)

SpookyFrank said:


> As long as your dead spy disposal business is VAT registered you shouldn't have too much trouble.


 
Freelance gunmongery is mostly Kalash-in-hand.


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## DaveCinzano (Apr 25, 2012)

teqniq said:


> In which case we are all cunts as all modern cars have servo-assisted brakes.
> 
> /pedant mode


 
How many professional hitmen do you know, you brittle-wristed pacifist?


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## SpookyFrank (Apr 25, 2012)

DaveCinzano said:


> Freelance gunmongery is mostly Kalash-in-hand.


 
Very good.


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## teqniq (Apr 25, 2012)

DaveCinzano said:


> How many professional hitmen do you know, you brittle-wristed pacifist?


 

None old bean, none. But I used to be (and still reluctantly am on occasion) a mechanic.


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## quimcunx (Apr 25, 2012)

I for one will not be using DaveCinzano spy removal services again. He didn't come back to do the snagging list despite several strongly-worded letters. If we'd just been talking some lipstick on a coffee cup I might have let it slide, but not this.


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## DaveCinzano (Apr 25, 2012)

Whoever did for James Bondage is an artist. Piano wire and club hammers are his brushes, the human body his canvas.


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## DaveCinzano (Apr 25, 2012)

quimcunx said:


> He didn't come back to do the snagging list despite several strong worded letters.


 
INSUFFICIENT POSTAGE PAID


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## Barking_Mad (Apr 25, 2012)

Barking_Mad said:


> Maybe he was retraining as an escapologist and the zip got stuck?


 
Hmm...




> The MI6 officer found dead in a padlocked bag in the bath at his flat once had to be rescued by his landlords after they found him tied to his bedposts, an inquest heard.
> Jennifer Elliot, who rented a flat in Cheltenham to Gareth Williams while he worked at GCHQ, said she and her husband heard him shouting for help one night at 1.30am about three years ago.
> When the couple went into the flat, they were shocked to find him in boxer shorts on his back on the bed "with both hands tied with material attached to the headboard".
> 
> ...


 
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/apr/25/mi6-gareth-williams-tied-bedposts


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## Dan U (Apr 25, 2012)

Wtf

Some kind of shit amateur escapologist

Or so we might want to think


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## DotCommunist (Apr 25, 2012)

they were paid to tell this tale


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## goldenecitrone (Apr 25, 2012)

DaveCinzano said:


> Whoever did for James Bondage is an artist.


 
More Doyle than Bodie. A Boyle in the bag.


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## 5t3IIa (Apr 25, 2012)

What the hell did he die of? Have they said?


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## Dan U (Apr 25, 2012)

5t3IIa said:


> What the hell did he die of? Have they said?



Inconclusive iirc


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## DotCommunist (Apr 25, 2012)

ricin


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## Limejuice (Apr 25, 2012)

5t3IIa said:


> What the hell did he die of? Have they said?


Some bagterial infection, perhaps...


*Sorry, bad taste -> coat*


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## claphamboy (Apr 25, 2012)

Dan U said:


> Inconclusive iirc


 
Being inconclusive can produce al-sorts of problems, but I never thought it was life threatening.


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## 5t3IIa (Apr 25, 2012)

Dan U said:


> Inconclusive iirc


 
 

I am unsatisfied. But for the sad death of an innocent tranny this is proper fascinating


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## DaveCinzano (Apr 25, 2012)

The 'cleaner' wipes a bead of sweat from his brow, having finally squeezed the last part of his cowed victim into the sports bag and zipped shut the holdall of doom.

He cackles to himself, allowing a moment of satisfaction to warm him through after the cold shroud of adrenaline that enveloped him following the brief but brutal struggle with James Bondage.

After carefully positioning a number of SIM cards on a table as a cryptic message to his enemies, he turns back to the bag, ready to swing the heavy burden over his shoulder like a sack of kittens on the way to a bridge. But wait!

He hears a sound. An indistinct, muffled sound. Can it be? Can Bondage still be alive?

He puts the bag back down on the floor, and contemplates what to do. After a moment of hesitation, he draws back the zipper. Bondage's contorted face stares back at him, bruised but not beaten. The sacked spy contemptuously spits out,

"I said, do you expect me to d-"

ZZZZZZZZZPPP

"Mmmmhmmmhmmmmmmmmmm"


----------



## DrRingDing (Apr 25, 2012)

Dan U said:


> Some kind of shit amateur escapologist


 
If that was the case then why put the bag in the bath?


----------



## London_Calling (Apr 25, 2012)

That story from his landlord/lady is circumstantial but pretty serious circumstantial.

I know we all love a mystery, but I don't think there is much of one here - even if the family lawyer would like there to be.


----------



## wayward bob (Apr 25, 2012)

DrRingDing said:


> If that was the case then why put the bag in the bath?


 
aquatic escapology ftw


----------



## DrRingDing (Apr 25, 2012)

See above.


----------



## Teaboy (Apr 25, 2012)

Barking_Mad said:


> Hmm...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
That must have been an uplifting story for his family to hear in court. How do you even tie yourself to both bedposts? There must have been someone else involved..


----------



## quimcunx (Apr 25, 2012)

We need Jonathan Creek.


----------



## 5t3IIa (Apr 25, 2012)

London_Calling said:


> That story from his landlord/lady is circumstantial but pretty serious circumstantial.
> 
> I know we all love a mystery, but I don't think there is much of one here - even if the family lawyer would like there to be.


 
It's bullshit though as there was no sign of him trying to escape. 

HOW DID THIS HAPPEN? My brain!


----------



## DrRingDing (Apr 25, 2012)

Teaboy said:


> How do you even tie yourself to both bedposts?


 
With knots?


----------



## London_Calling (Apr 25, 2012)

What would signify to you someone was trying to escape from a holdall in which they couldn't move more than a very few centimetres? He gave up, he rested in the only comfortable position.


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 25, 2012)

it still doesn't explain the padlock, the convenient disappered forensics or the sim card shennanigans


----------



## wayward bob (Apr 25, 2012)

tearing to the lining  ffs l_c pay attention


----------



## Teaboy (Apr 25, 2012)

You'd have to have a decent knowledge of slip knots, or maybe he had 3 hands - has that even been considered?

Anyway why isnt Jazzz on the case with this?  I thought this'd be right down his street, to obvious perhaps.


----------



## quimcunx (Apr 25, 2012)

There would be signs of chewing if someone imprisoned me in a holdall. If not from an escape attempt then from when I got peckish.


----------



## London_Calling (Apr 25, 2012)

wayward bob said:


> tearing to the lining  ffs l_c pay attention


Of course he tried to get out. No one's suggesting suicide?

He just went too far, a la the auto-erotic orange types.


----------



## wayward bob (Apr 25, 2012)

London_Calling said:


> Of course he tried to get out. No one's suggesting suicide?


 
huh? the point was there was no tearing to the lining, signifying he wasn't trying to escape. keep up


----------



## Teaboy (Apr 25, 2012)

London_Calling said:


> the auto-erotic orange types.


 
Fucking lib dems, should have known.


----------



## London_Calling (Apr 25, 2012)

The bath is an interesting choice though. What's the speculation on that - a body fluid thing?


----------



## Boycey (Apr 25, 2012)

DotCommunist said:


> ricin


 
reheated i hear.


----------



## 2hats (Apr 25, 2012)

DrRingDing said:


> If that was the case then why put the bag in the bath?


 
Put the bag in the bath and carefully fill with suitably chosen suffocating gas? Nitrogen or carbon dioxide, perhaps.


----------



## London_Calling (Apr 25, 2012)

A-ciiid?

No, that's a bit 1950s-cum-Breaking Bad.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Apr 25, 2012)

He could have fallen in to the bag in the bath and accidentally padlocked it shut, then died of nothing at all.

/Concordia Captain


----------



## stuff_it (Apr 25, 2012)

mauvais said:


> You wouldn't turn the engine off because you would lose power steering and braking assistance.


You don't *need* them at low speed, the wheels still turn and the brakes still work with the engine off.


----------



## DrRingDing (Apr 25, 2012)

2hats said:


> Put the bag in the bath and carefully fill with suitably chosen suffocating gas? Nitrogen or carbon dioxide, perhaps.


 
I think they would of found some evidence such as gas cylinders etc if that was the case.


----------



## Teaboy (Apr 25, 2012)

I like the evidence from one of his female friends who thought he couldnt be a cross dresser and the countless brand new items of women's clothing they found must have been presents for her and his sister.

How does she think a cross dresser acts?  Does she assume its a 24/7 drag act, jeez.


----------



## 5t3IIa (Apr 25, 2012)

DrRingDing said:


> I think they would of found some evidence such as gas cylinders etc if that was the case.


 
The hitman just has to take them away with him afterwards.


----------



## 2hats (Apr 25, 2012)

DrRingDing said:


> I think they would of found some evidence such as gas cylinders etc if that was the case.


 
The hit man or nettoyeur would leave those lying around the flat huh?


----------



## Teaboy (Apr 25, 2012)

5t3IIa said:


> The hitman just has to take them away with him afterwards.


 
Oh so its a hit_man_ now is it?


----------



## 5t3IIa (Apr 25, 2012)

Teaboy said:


> Oh so its a hit_man_ now is it?


Hit_person_


----------



## Teaboy (Apr 25, 2012)

Hit_lizard?_


----------



## DaveCinzano (Apr 25, 2012)

5t3IIa said:


> The hitman just has to take them away with him afterwards.


 
The big question is what was Michaela Strachan's role in all this


----------



## London_Calling (Apr 25, 2012)

A hitwoman wouldn't leave a £1000 pair of shoes behind....

/RACIST!!1!


----------



## Teaboy (Apr 25, 2012)

DaveCinzano said:


> The big question is what was Michaela Strachan's role in all this


 
To be most teenage boys wank fantasy in the early 90's?


----------



## 2hats (Apr 25, 2012)

(since the media option doesn't appear to support time offsets)

e2a: nope, even that got mangled.


----------



## weltweit (Apr 25, 2012)

Teaboy said:


> I like the evidence from one of his female friends who thought he couldnt be a cross dresser and the countless brand new items of women's clothing they found must have been presents for her and his sister.
> 
> How does she think a cross dresser acts? Does she assume its a 24/7 drag act, jeez.


Simple way to know whether the clothes and shoes were for him - were they his size????


----------



## wayward bob (Apr 25, 2012)

hitperson didn't have an iphone


----------



## Roadkill (Apr 25, 2012)

5t3IIa said:


> It's bullshit though as there was no sign of him trying to escape.
> 
> HOW DID THIS HAPPEN? My brain!


 
Proper sealed-room whodunnit, isn't it?  I've changed my mind about this: it's less like a John le Carre spy thriller and more like an Agatha Christie novel.  Here's who we need to solve the mystery:


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 25, 2012)

I'm more inclide to see Columbo on this one Roady. It does after all include the higher echelons of society, spies being establishment shirts. 

With his crap car, his stinky cigar and his nagging questioning he would unravel this whole affair.


----------



## discokermit (Apr 25, 2012)

DotCommunist said:


> I'm more inclide to see Columbo on this one Roady. It does after all include the higher echelons of society, spies being establishment shirts.
> 
> With his crap car, his stinky cigar and his nagging questioning he would unravel this whole affair.


no chance. columbo is good but he'd be out of his depth. this is deffo one for smiley.


----------



## quimcunx (Apr 25, 2012)

Roadkill said:


> Proper sealed-room whodunnit, isn't it? I've changed my mind about this: it's less like a John le Carre spy thriller and more like an Agatha Christie novel. Here's who we need to solve the mystery:


 

No!


----------



## 2hats (Apr 25, 2012)




----------



## GarfieldLeChat (Apr 25, 2012)

goldenecitrone said:


> And they would have said it was suicide.


I don't give a fuck if it would. 

Due process applies to all.

Let's see if the condems are as craven as labour in this regard. 

Becuase this case is clearly murder so by who and what motivated it...


----------



## DaveCinzano (Apr 25, 2012)

This requires a team effort


----------



## GarfieldLeChat (Apr 25, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> What a bunch of dirty Jews and crypto-Jews they are, too!!


See the clues even in the name crypto Jews crypto sounds like cryptography which we all know from the bond moves is spy shit no doubt. And Jews well that sound like Jews you know Jews those ones the Jews that's right mofos Jews. Oh yes

And clues rhymes with what now?

That's right mofos Jews....


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 25, 2012)

2hats said:


>


 
They've already lost all the forensics, Quincy would have nothing to work with, and Monaghan would block his investigation on political grounds. Quince might take that to City Hall, but without the evidence he would be all at sea. In that yacht where he bangs all the ladies


----------



## GarfieldLeChat (Apr 25, 2012)

DotCommunist said:


> They've already lost all the forensics, Quincy would have nothing to work with, and Monaghan would block his investigation on political grounds. Quince might take that to City Hall, but without the evidence he would be all at sea. In that yacht where he bangs all the ladies


Don't forget the Jews


----------



## DaveCinzano (Apr 25, 2012)

Still, so long as there's a bowl of chilli at Danny's waiting for him at the end of the day.


----------



## 2hats (Apr 25, 2012)

DotCommunist said:


> They've already lost all the forensics, Quincy would have nothing to work with


 
Sounds to me like there's only one option left - to call:


----------



## Kaka Tim (Apr 25, 2012)

This man once minituraised one his victims and then sealed him inside his own lunchbox. An uncannily similar MO if you ask me ...






So we need this fella on the case ...


----------



## GarfieldLeChat (Apr 25, 2012)

Kaka Tim said:


> This man once minituraised one his victims and then sealed him inside his own lunchbox. An uncannily similar MO if you ask me ...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hmmmm both look Jewish.


----------



## GarfieldLeChat (Apr 25, 2012)

Did I get it right was it the Jews?


----------



## Anudder Oik (Apr 25, 2012)

The victim's job, which is taken almost as evidence in itself, seems to have completely placed all speculation on one of only 2 limited lines of thought. Either MI6 did it or their enemies did it, as a warning.

Neither of which can be proved.

If this case had not involved someone who worked for MI6 then we would certainly have a far wider range of theories as to what happened. Other lines of investigation or motives are being left entirely out of the equation, as though they could never exist. Serial killers, jealous lovers, neighbours tired of getting woken up in the middle of the night aren't considered and that really makes for a limited scope investigation.

Having said that, the insinuations about sexuality, cross dressing, etc, are either an invention of corrupt journalists or a tactic used by MI6 etc to muddy up cases.

If I remember correctly there was a similar weird case of a Tory MP about 25 years ago who, dressed in women's clothes, managed to tie himself up and suffocate himself.

One could be forgiven for thinking that the circumstances of such cases are prepared to distract attention from the question why but then again it could just be coincidence.

The suitcase has got Mafia written all over it, IMO.


----------



## weltweit (Apr 25, 2012)

There seem to have been a massive collection of womens clothes if they were intended as gifts, £20,000 and a pair of shoes which cost £1,000 - I bet they were all his size which kind of points to what they were used for. - namely wearing.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 25, 2012)

GarfieldLeChat said:


> See the clues even in the name crypto Jews crypto sounds like cryptography which we all know from the bond moves is spy shit no doubt. And Jews well that sound like Jews you know Jews those ones the Jews that's right mofos Jews. Oh yes
> 
> And clues rhymes with what now?
> 
> That's right mofos Jews....


 
Fucking Yids, we're totally fucking insidious!!! Kill us all!!


----------



## Anudder Oik (Apr 25, 2012)

weltweit said:


> There seem to have been a massive collection of womens clothes if they were intended as gifts, £20,000 and a pair of shoes which cost £1,000 - I bet they were all his size which kind of points to what they were used for. - namely wearing.


 
This insinuates that the death had something to do with his sexual taste or habits and that is something that is difficult for people to accept given the job of the victim.

We need some statistics.

How many crossdressers have been murdered, in strange circumstances, in the last say 25 years? How many of them were Tory MP's or MI6 agents?

a daft question really..


----------



## Anudder Oik (Apr 25, 2012)

DotCommunist said:


> I'm more inclide to see Columbo on this one Roady. It does after all include the higher echelons of society, spies being establishment shirts.
> 
> With his crap car, his stinky cigar and his nagging questioning he would unravel this whole affair.


----------



## pesh (Apr 26, 2012)

standard.


----------



## GarfieldLeChat (Apr 26, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Fucking Yids, we're totally fucking insidious!!! Kill us all!!


Jews. It's always the Jews. But I know how to defeat them. Wanna buy shares in this tin foil?


----------



## Greebo (Apr 26, 2012)

GarfieldLeChat said:


> Jews. It's always the Jews. But I know how to defeat them. Wanna buy shares in this tin foil?


Is it smeared with lard?


----------



## GarfieldLeChat (Apr 26, 2012)

Greebo said:


> Is it smeared with lard?


No it's a wearable head item...


----------



## Greebo (Apr 26, 2012)

GarfieldLeChat said:


> No it's a wearable head item...


Not even lard on the outside, used as a repellent?


----------



## mauvais (Apr 26, 2012)

2hats said:


> Sounds to me like there's only one option left - to call:


It's unlikely that this duo are still able to receive your call. The photo already indicates a lack of investment in modern telephony such as DECT phones or VoIP, and in particular the harsh environment of the beach will doubtless have been unkind to the supporting fixed line infrastructure.


----------



## London_Calling (Apr 26, 2012)

Anudder Oik said:


> The suitcase has got Mafia written all over it, IMO.


 
Fwiw, it was a holdall, and it has 'The North Face' written all over it.


----------



## 2hats (Apr 26, 2012)

mauvais said:


> The photo already indicates a lack of investment in modern telephony


----------



## Idris2002 (Apr 26, 2012)

2hats said:


>


 
Separated at birth?


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 26, 2012)

cohen. Jews again.


----------



## Santino (Apr 26, 2012)

discokermit said:


> no chance. columbo is good but he'd be out of his depth. this is deffo one for smiley.


Columbo once bested a CIA operative.


----------



## temper_tantrum (Apr 26, 2012)

London_Calling said:


> Fwiw, it was a holdall, and it has 'The North Face' written all over it.


 
Oh! Just realised. I have one of those bags. If anyone would like to come round and try to lock themselves into it, do be my guest.


----------



## London_Calling (Apr 26, 2012)

Is that the voice of experience?

/JOKE!!


----------



## temper_tantrum (Apr 26, 2012)

London_Calling said:


> Is that the voice of experience?
> 
> /JOKE!!


 
I do not recollect ever having used the bag in question  /Murdoch


----------



## GarfieldLeChat (Apr 26, 2012)

Greebo said:


> Not even lard on the outside, used as a repellent?


repellent sounds like reptile... it's the reps in the words... put there by... 

you guess it the Jews...


----------



## Idris2002 (Apr 26, 2012)

Anudder Oik said:


> The victim's job, which is taken almost as evidence in itself, seems to have completely placed all speculation on one of only 2 limited lines of thought. Either MI6 did it or their enemies did it, as a warning.
> 
> Neither of which can be proved.
> 
> ...


 
The Tory MP was Stephen Millington or Milligan, something like that. The story I read was that he had been asking awkward questions about  the arms trade. . .


----------



## rekil (Apr 26, 2012)

We. Are being detoured. Into the land of perv-believe.


----------



## elbows (Apr 26, 2012)

With ample evidence of how fascinating and murky both the dark arts and atypical sexual habits are, good luck getting to the truth of this one. Plausible possibilities can be found by exploring both avenues in this case, and I would just be taking a wild guess if I wanted to pick one now.


----------



## pardon (Apr 26, 2012)

some people take hide and seek way too seriously


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Apr 26, 2012)

Idris2002 said:


> The Tory MP was Stephen Millington or Milligan, something like that. The story I read was that he had been asking awkward questions about the arms trade. . .


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Milligan


----------



## sunny jim (Apr 26, 2012)

Didnt Stephen Milligan blow the gaff on the super gun to Iraq thing?


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Apr 26, 2012)

Actually no. That was my uncle who was an industrial radiographer. He sussed it. I only found this out at his funeral.


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Apr 26, 2012)

Presumably he reported it to his superiors.


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Apr 26, 2012)

I'm not joking btw, it really was my uncle who sussed it.


----------



## sunny jim (Apr 26, 2012)

But it wasnt really blowing the gaff on the blag as high up members of the Tory party - Kenneth Clarke, Peter Lilley an Malcolm Rifkind knew all about it from the off. Didnt Stephen Milligan ask questions first in Parliament about it?


----------



## Wilf (Apr 26, 2012)

5t3IIa said:


> What the hell did he die of? Have they said?


A stroke.


----------



## sunny jim (Apr 26, 2012)

Gerald Bull, arms dealer and inventor of the "super gun", was assassinated in Belgium in a 1990 professional hit.
A 28-year-old British journalist, Jonathan Moyles, was killed in Santiago, Chile, the day after interviewing arms dealer Carlos Cardoen. Cardoen had been involved in selling Iraq 50 Bell helicopters containing the ultra-sophisticated Helos guidance system, illegally exported from Britain.
Andre Cools, former deputy prime minister of Belgium, was murdered in 1991, shortly after being asked to investigate Belgian involvement with Iraqi arms deals.
It has been alleged that the bizarre fetishistic death of former Tory MP Stephen Milligan is also connected. According to some insiders, the MP, who worked for the Defence Ministry, was killed for asking too many questions about arms trade corruption.[2])

From http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Iraqi_supergun_affair


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Apr 26, 2012)

Well, unlike Gareth Williams, when my uncle didn't turn up at work they sent someone straight round, but it was too late. He had died. I don't think it was suspicious before the truthers wet their collective knickers. He died of hypothermia, only 53 but quite severely disabled with Ankylosing Spondylitis and not otherwise in great health because he'd had TB pre-antibiotics era.


----------



## elbows (Apr 26, 2012)

The most interesting and compelling UK 'conspiracy theories' tend to involve two things: plausible motive, and a dead body. Neither of these are enough to prove anything, but they do give the theory more backbone and general interest than most things we would label as conspiracy theories these days.

In this case the motive is a bit vague and not highly developed, nor are we too likely to get evidence which will enable anyone to flesh out the possible motive. But its enough to pay attention.

The manner of the death in this case is obviously of more interest, but again I don't think we are going to find out much more.

What are we left with? Not a lot, motive is not enough on its own to prove anything, even if it were more strongly defined in this case.  And the fact that sexual smears are one of the black arts is likewise no proof that this was the case here.


----------



## silverfish (Apr 26, 2012)

I'm currently packing, I can't get a fucking heavy yoga mat in my XXL Northface duffel never mind a cross dressing triathlon spy


----------



## sunny jim (Apr 26, 2012)

Spooks dying in weird circumstances is always going to have people asking questions.


----------



## catinthehat (Apr 26, 2012)




----------



## sunny jim (Apr 26, 2012)

catinthehat said:


> View attachment 18554


 
Sorry for my ignorance but who's she?


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Apr 26, 2012)

sunny jim said:


> Sorry for my ignorance but who's she?


Sarah Lund 
Norwegian TV detective that had the nation gripped.


----------



## catinthehat (Apr 26, 2012)

Sure she would make some fundamental errors, loose her temper with an important official, make an unwise comment to the press and distress her family with her priorities but she would get to the bottom of it.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Apr 27, 2012)

catinthehat said:


> Sure she would make some fundamental errors, loose her temper with an important official, make an unwise comment to the press and distress her family with her priorities but she would get to the bottom of it.


 
The best sort of detective.


----------



## London_Calling (Apr 27, 2012)

Danish.


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Apr 27, 2012)




----------



## goldenecitrone (Apr 27, 2012)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Sarah Lund
> Norwegian TV detective that had the nation gripped.


 
A classic case of not knowing your Aarhus from your Oslo.


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Apr 27, 2012)




----------



## pardon (Apr 27, 2012)

temper_tantrum said:


> Oh! Just realised. I have one of those bags. If anyone would like to come round and try to lock themselves into it, do be my guest.


 
I'm fairly sure some of cynthia payne's guests would have paid good money to be have been locked in a bag


----------



## spliff (Apr 27, 2012)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Sarah Lund
> *Norwegian* TV detective that had the nation gripped.





London_Calling said:


> *Danish*.


Scandiwegian. (including Iceland and Finland)


----------



## mauvais (Apr 27, 2012)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/apr/27/mi6-officer-placed-dead-in-bag



> Experts who tried and failed to lock themselves into a sports bag identical to that in which MI6 officer Gareth Williams was found believed it likely a third party was involved, his inquest heard, as it emerged he browsed self-bondage websites and videoed himself naked in boots.


*WHAT KIND OF EXPERTS ARE THESE?!*


----------



## mauvais (Apr 27, 2012)

> The inquest was shown a video of Faulding's attempts, as he explained it would have been extremely hot in the bag, and Williams would have been able to survive for 30 minutes at most.


That's the expert Uncle Ben there.


----------



## teqniq (Apr 27, 2012)

Experts who couldn't lock themselves inside the bag...



> Mr Faulding, a former Parachute Regiment reservist who specialises in rescuing people from confined spaces, made 300 unsuccessful attempts to lock himself inside an identical 81cm x 48cm bag.....



http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/feedarticle/10216685


----------



## discokermit (Apr 27, 2012)

naked in boots? when i did that i got barred from all their stores.


----------



## 2hats (Apr 27, 2012)

mauvais said:


> > videoed himself naked in boots


 
Surely someone would have noticed and complained to the store manager?

e2a: bound to get beaten to the obvious quips


----------



## discokermit (Apr 27, 2012)

too slow, 2hats.

e2a ungracious edit, 2hats. and you had to spell your joke out, which is insulting to your audience.

still, great minds think alike. but then again, fools seldom differ...


----------



## mauvais (Apr 27, 2012)

If I try something 300 times and fail at it, I'm a dickhead. That guy's an _expert_. What the hell, people.


----------



## Anudder Oik (Apr 27, 2012)

mauvais said:


> http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/apr/27/mi6-officer-placed-dead-in-bag
> 
> *WHAT KIND OF EXPERTS ARE THESE?!*


 
They are experts in leading people along so that they believe the case is being investigated properly.


----------



## abstract1 (Apr 27, 2012)

mauvais said:


> http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/apr/27/mi6-officer-placed-dead-in-bag
> 
> *WHAT KIND OF EXPERTS ARE THESE?!*


 
The rubbish kind......

I'm fascinated by the idea, and images it conjures up, of a group of experts trying to fold/lock themselves into a bag 

surreal.


----------



## wayward bob (Apr 27, 2012)

teqniq said:


> Experts who couldn't lock themselves inside the bag...


 
_three hundred_ attempts?


----------



## 2hats (Apr 27, 2012)

mauvais said:


> If I try something 300 times and fail at it, I'm a dickhead. That guy's an _expert_. What the hell, people.


 
On the other hand, if you succeed, you gain national exposure.


----------



## mauvais (Apr 27, 2012)

abstract1 said:


> The rubbish kind......
> 
> I'm fascinated by the idea, and images it conjures up, of a group of experts trying to fold/lock themselves into a bag
> 
> surreal.


I bet at least three people on this thread have tried it though. Boil-in-a-bag deaths are going to be at least twice what they were last year.


----------



## abstract1 (Apr 27, 2012)

2hats said:


> On the other hand, if you succeed, you gain national exposure.


 
eventually........


----------



## teqniq (Apr 27, 2012)

wayward bob said:


> _three hundred_ attempts?


 
Well I guess you got to try and make an effort.


----------



## abstract1 (Apr 27, 2012)

mauvais said:


> I bet at least three people on this thread have tried it though. Boil-in-a-bag deaths are going to be at least twice what they were last year.


 
Open a book


----------



## mauvais (Apr 27, 2012)

2hats said:


> On the other hand, if you succeed, you gain national exposure.


You could do that by just wearing the boots.


----------



## abstract1 (Apr 27, 2012)

mauvais said:


> You could do that by just wearing the boots.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Apr 27, 2012)

mauvais said:


> http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/apr/27/mi6-officer-placed-dead-in-bag
> 
> *WHAT KIND OF EXPERTS ARE THESE?!*


 
how many "locking yourself in big holdall" experts are there out there anyway?


----------



## wayward bob (Apr 27, 2012)

Puddy_Tat said:


> how many "locking yourself in big holdall" experts are there out there anyway?


 
only the good ones make it out


----------



## mauvais (Apr 27, 2012)

I'd love to see the list of attempts.

#1: Forgot to bring the bag
#2: Forgot to get in the bag
#3: Bag is already locked
#4: Hey, there's a dead man in this bag!
#5: ...


----------



## Mephitic (Apr 27, 2012)

Puddy_Tat said:


> how many "locking yourself in big holdall" experts are there out there anyway?


 
one less than there used to be, apparently (if this bs is to believed).


----------



## abstract1 (Apr 27, 2012)

Puddy_Tat said:


> how many "locking yourself in big holdall" experts are there out there anyway?


 
it's a specialist area - curb your cynicism


----------



## quimcunx (Apr 27, 2012)

wayward bob said:


> _three hundred_ attempts?


 
Dedication.

What form did these 300 attempts take? 300 exactly the same or 300 different ways of locking yourself in a bag.

Attempt 1: tried to lock myself in bag by pulling zip nearly shut, pulling through to inside of bag, securing with padlock and pushing padlock out of gap.

Attempt 186: tried to lock myself in bag by training the neighbour's dog to use a padlock and let himself out.

Attempt 249: *sigh* tried to lock myself in bag by the power of astral projection.

Attempt 295: tried to lock myself in bag by watching Michael McIntyre DVD and throwing popcorn at a spider.

Attempt 296: tried to lock myself in bag by greasing a monkey while reciting the karma sutra.




e2a: Attempt 300: tried to lock myself in bag by travelling back in time 2 minutes and killing mauvais.


----------



## discokermit (Apr 27, 2012)

mauvais said:


> I'd love to see the list of attempts.
> 
> #1: Forgot to bring the bag
> #2: Forgot to get in the bag
> ...


5. got in wrong bag, ended up in benidorm.


----------



## abstract1 (Apr 27, 2012)

Mephitic said:


> one less than there used to be, apparently (if this bs is to believed).


 
cynic


----------



## mauvais (Apr 27, 2012)

...
#298: So close!
#299: LOCKED IN THE BAG *LIKE A CHAMP*
#300: Forgot to tell anyone I was doing this


----------



## abstract1 (Apr 27, 2012)

discokermit said:


> 5. got in wrong bag, ended up in benidorm.


 
bad luck


----------



## wayward bob (Apr 27, 2012)

jesus fuck now mr b wants to re-enact this with my rucksack 

(he reckons i'm gonna be bored tomorrow night )


----------



## discokermit (Apr 27, 2012)

wayward bob said:


> jesus fuck now mr b wants to re-enact this with my rucksack


funny you say that but i fancy giving it a go as well.


----------



## quimcunx (Apr 27, 2012)

In an old job I used to contort myself to get myself into the safe for general entertainment.  Just managed to stop someone closing the door one time. It was a combi safe and I was the only person who'd successfully worked out how to unlock it.


----------



## abstract1 (Apr 27, 2012)

discokermit said:


> funny you say that but i fancy giving it a go as well.


 
is there room for two of you?


----------



## wayward bob (Apr 27, 2012)

abstract1 said:


> is there room for two of you?


 
 the plot thickens


----------



## discokermit (Apr 27, 2012)

abstract1 said:


> is there room for two of you?


get bob in as well. that's how to party.


----------



## abstract1 (Apr 27, 2012)

discokermit said:


> that's how to party.


 
in a pocket


----------



## abstract1 (Apr 27, 2012)

pockets are underrated - he should have used a pocket 

Holdalls are so last year


----------



## rekil (Apr 27, 2012)

mauvais said:


> I'd love to see the list of attempts.
> 
> #1: Forgot to bring the bag
> #2: Forgot to get in the bag
> ...


Or just the invoice. What's the bag attempt unit cost.


----------



## abstract1 (Apr 27, 2012)

copliker said:


> Or just the invoice. What's the bag attempt unit cost.


 
You omitted the question mark from your nonsensical question.

HTH


----------



## rekil (Apr 27, 2012)

abstract1 said:


> You omitted the question mark from your nonsensical question.
> 
> HTH


Got no time for no fool punctuation.


----------



## mauvais (Apr 27, 2012)

Still, at least this Expert sideline beats working for MI6. Hello? He-llooooo?


----------



## Orang Utan (Apr 28, 2012)

This is one of the funniest threads I've read, but I only read it cos, oh wait I forgot


----------



## dancing bo (Apr 28, 2012)

discokermit said:


> no chance. columbo is good but he'd be out of his depth. this is deffo one for smiley.


What about Magmum PI ? He'd have to be good with a big tash like that!
I think he was a ladies man too, which is always a plus.


----------



## mauvais (Apr 28, 2012)

copliker said:


> Or just the invoice. What's the bag attempt unit cost.


It's cash on completion, so very little need to worry about it.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 28, 2012)

pardon said:


> I'm fairly sure some of cynthia payne's guests would have paid good money to be have been locked in a bag


 
I'm sure some of them *did*.


----------



## Part 2 (Apr 28, 2012)

Video of fella trying to lock himself in a bag.

Top comment "Is It wrong that i have a Boner ?"


----------



## quimcunx (Apr 28, 2012)

Are Michael McIntyre and the monkey just out of shot there?


----------



## London_Calling (Apr 28, 2012)

Who are all these getting-into-sports-holdall 'experts'?

Where did they study that then, and are the people studying it from next year going to pay £9,000 a year to do so?


----------



## London_Calling (Apr 28, 2012)

I wonder if they studied case law for three years...


----------



## mauvais (Apr 28, 2012)

I wonder if you studied the last page of the thread.

As for me, I did the Unsuccessfully Locking Myself In A Bag (BA Hons) course at Sir Bobby Bobble Bollocks' Travelling University, and on the three hundredth attempt I passed the exam by failing it and got a First.


----------



## London_Calling (Apr 28, 2012)

mauvais said:


> I wonder if you studied the last page of the thread.


Don't be ridiculous, it's Urban.


----------



## mauvais (Apr 28, 2012)

Don't make me summon P Who Shall Not P Named.


----------



## elbows (Apr 28, 2012)

Chip Barm said:


> Video of fella trying to lock himself in a bag.


 
He struggled a bit but he didn't make it look all that difficult really, certainly not impossible.

lol at the way the court has found 'experts' who have nice clean careers that required them to work in small spaces, the real experts in this stuff would be people who actually climb into bags etc for kicks. And given that how flexible, bendy and determined a person is is going to make quite a difference to their chances of success, the whole exercise is a bit silly.


----------



## goldenecitrone (Apr 28, 2012)

London_Calling said:


> I wonder if they studied case law for three years...


 
You've got to curl up tightly to fit in one of those bags, so contract law would be handier.


----------



## UrbaneFox (Apr 28, 2012)

Stan Laurel claimed that accidentally falling and locking oneself into a suitcase could easily be done.

No idea where to find the link, though. It's in one of their short films.  However, I suspect that Mauvais in 229 would be able to help.


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 28, 2012)

elbows said:


> He struggled a bit but he didn't make it look all that difficult really, certainly not impossible.
> 
> lol at the way the court has found 'experts' who have nice clean careers that required them to work in small spaces, the real experts in this stuff would be people who actually climb into bags etc for kicks. And given that how flexible, bendy and determined a person is is going to make quite a difference to their chances of success, the whole exercise is a bit silly.


 
escapology is not a casual hobby. Less so getting yourself there to start with. The damn inquest has heard testimony opining that he was dead before he was put in the bag- which suggests he was stuffed in there before he stiffened up. It's dodgy.


----------



## pinkmonkey (Apr 28, 2012)

Teaboy said:


> I like the evidence from one of his female friends who thought he couldnt be a cross dresser and the countless brand new items of women's clothing they found must have been presents for her and his sister.
> 
> How does she think a cross dresser acts?  Does she assume its a 24/7 drag act, jeez.



I was in a relationship with a tranny  and my bessie mate was one as well, so I know the scene. I have never, ever met a tranny who shops in Dover Street Market ( where these clothes were bought from, over time, for a girlfriend, according to a witness statement from a store assistant there), they sell proper fashion hipster stuff, leftfield, not mainstream, or sexy or bling - more Bjork than Britney.  Yep, I thought they were trying to set him up too, but with clothes from there? Naaah.

ETA maybe he was Londons first proper hipster tranny.


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 28, 2012)

Even if the man was into dresssing as a woman. Even if his alleged internet searches for self bondage were true. An expert has tried 300 times to replicate that, and not been able to do so. Not with the padlock.then there is the missing forensics and the strange sim card business. He left his phone neatly on the side, sim card removed and next to it? No. That looks like someone took the sim out, raped the data and then left it there.

I know we shouldn't jump to conclusions just becaus he was spook but how fucking suss does the set up have to be before we admit that this was not a bizaarre wanking accident?

Everything about it screams hit job, and not one that is sloppy or complete. Someone somewhere knows why he was bagged up like that and left like a massive warning


----------



## elbows (Apr 29, 2012)

DotCommunist said:


> Even if the man was into dresssing as a woman. Even if his alleged internet searches for self bondage were true. An expert has tried 300 times to replicate that, and not been able to do so. Not with the padlock.then there is the missing forensics and the strange sim card business. He left his phone neatly on the side, sim card removed and next to it? No. That looks like someone took the sim out, raped the data and then left it there.
> 
> I know we shouldn't jump to conclusions just becaus he was spook but how fucking suss does the set up have to be before we admit that this was not a bizaarre wanking accident?



As indicated earlier I remain open to both possibilities, but I certainly don't agree that the setup was full of suss.

Take for example the sim card. Given his line of work he was probably quite aware of the capabilities of mobile phones, and for all we know removing the sim card may have been a very routine part of how he managed his life as a result of some technical spooky detail. Also since I think we heard something about him using another name, its quite possible he also engaged in a bit of sim card swapping in order to have simple firewalls between his identities.

If it was a hit job then it was pretty complete in every other respect so I don't know why they would lave one giant suspect sign like that. The idea that this sort of thing is made obvious to act as a warning is not completely without historical basis Im sure, but we can't just assume thats the case every time we get a story where everything is quite neat and tidy except for one glaring thing.

Treat these things as intriguing signs of there being a sinister aspect to the story if you like, seems reasonable enough to do so to at least a certain extent, but I have to keep an open mind because at the end of the day spooks can have bizarre wank deaths too. Important or intriguing people do die in silly ways sometimes, ways that have nothing to do with their status. Sure this fact can also be used to bump people off on the quiet, but sometimes the bizarre really is all there is to it.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 29, 2012)

elbows said:


> As indicated earlier I remain open to both possibilities, but I certainly don't agree that the setup was full of suss.
> 
> Take for example the sim card. Given his line of work he was probably quite aware of the capabilities of mobile phones, and for all we know removing the sim card may have been a very routine part of how he managed his life as a result of some technical spooky detail. Also since I think we heard something about him using another name, its quite possible he also engaged in a bit of sim card swapping in order to have simple firewalls between his identities.


 
Firewalls that would be much more easily preserved by using two phones, rather than SIM-swapping. Only legits reason for removing the SIM is to stop the line being opened from a remote location, and/or to copy the data.



> If it was a hit job then it was pretty complete in every other respect so I don't know why they would lave one giant suspect sign like that. The idea that this sort of thing is made obvious to act as a warning is not completely without historical basis Im sure, but we can't just assume thats the case every time we get a story where everything is quite neat and tidy except for one glaring thing.


 
_Pour encourager les autres_ is as old as the hills, and the security services are skilled enough in wet-work, even without sub-contracting to Special Forces, to not leave glaring evidence unless they wish to.



> Treat these things as intriguing signs of there being a sinister aspect to the story if you like, seems reasonable enough to do so to at least a certain extent, but I have to keep an open mind because at the end of the day spooks can have bizarre wank deaths too. Important or intriguing people do die in silly ways sometimes, ways that have nothing to do with their status. Sure this fact can also be used to bump people off on the quiet, but sometimes the bizarre really is all there is to it.


 
Which way does Occam's Razor cut, though? I'd say in favour of this being punishment and a warning to others, rather than a bizarre bit of auto-eroticism gone wrong.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 29, 2012)

DotCommunist said:


> Even if the man was into dresssing as a woman. Even if his alleged internet searches for self bondage were true. An expert has tried 300 times to replicate that, and not been able to do so. Not with the padlock.then there is the missing forensics and the strange sim card business. He left his phone neatly on the side, sim card removed and next to it? No. That looks like someone took the sim out, raped the data and then left it there.
> 
> I know we shouldn't jump to conclusions just becaus he was spook but how fucking suss does the set up have to be before we admit that this was not a bizaarre wanking accident?
> 
> Everything about it screams hit job, and not one that is sloppy or complete. Someone somewhere knows why he was bagged up like that and left like a massive warning


 
(Puts "bizarre wanking accident" in list of excellent band names)


----------



## London_Calling (Apr 29, 2012)

How do you put someone in a holdall in a nice comfortable foetal position and zip it up against their will?

What do you need as bare minimum, three people per limb - two to push one to bend the joint, two for the shoulders, two to hold the bag, etc, etc. If it's poss at all it needs to be at least a rugby team.


----------



## Part 2 (Apr 29, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> (Puts "bizarre wanking accident" in list of excellent band names)


 
Stolen for tagline


----------



## claphamboy (Apr 29, 2012)

London_Calling said:


> How do you put someone in a holdall in a nice comfortable foetal position and zip it up against their will?


 
You make sure they are dead first.


----------



## quimcunx (Apr 29, 2012)

London_Calling said:


> How do you put someone in a holdall in a nice comfortable foetal position and zip it up against their will?
> 
> What do you need as bare minimum, three people per limb - two to push one to bend the joint, two for the shoulders, two to hold the bag, etc, etc. If it's poss at all it needs to be at least a rugby team.


 
"50 quid says you can't fit into this bag''


----------



## claphamboy (Apr 29, 2012)

quimcunx said:


> "50 quid says you can't fit into this bag''


 
300 attempts later *gives up*.


----------



## elbows (Apr 29, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Which way does Occam's Razor cut, though? I'd say in favour of this being punishment and a warning to others, rather than a bizarre bit of auto-eroticism gone wrong.


 
Punishment for what? Its not exactly a good recruitment tool, nor is it likely to make GCHQ employees leap at the chance of spending some time working for MI6.

To explore this possibility further we'd need to know more about what he was doing, and I don't see that happening.


----------



## London_Calling (Apr 29, 2012)

claphamboy said:


> You make sure they are dead first.


How do you kill them because there's a Coroner who's quite interested to know?


----------



## StraightOuttaQ (Apr 29, 2012)

elbows said:


> Punishment for what? Its not exactly a good recruitment tool, nor is it likely to make GCHQ employees leap at the chance of spending some time working for MI6. To explore this possibility further we'd need to know more about what he was doing, and I don't see that happening.


 
Didn't I read somewhere (It was on the internet, so it must have been true) that he apparently expressed reservations privately about some of the work he was doing? And thus, if he was ever tempted to leak it to anyone, that would act as sufficient deterrent not to betray Mi6? Bear in mind, he was a GCHQ employee seconded to MI6, not neccessarily of his choosing? The references in press reports to the time when he was found cuffed to the bed in his boxers and visiting bondage websites means there's an easy alibi of a sex accident ; however, did not work quite according to plan if that was the case.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 29, 2012)

elbows said:


> Punishment for what? Its not exactly a good recruitment tool, nor is it likely to make GCHQ employees leap at the chance of spending some time working for MI6.


 
Contrary to "Spooks", a lot of intelligence workers don't like secondment. You tend to end up in the field you're in because that's where your competencies lie, so being posted somewhere that isn't your "natural" area of expertise can be socially and culturally dislocating.
Also, he was strongly considering leaving, i.e. unilaterally ending his secondment, at the risk of his tenure at GCHQ. Why would he do that if he were merely fucked off, given the OT and psych resources that the intelligence services have for straightening out employees who've gone a bit stir-crazy?



> To explore this possibility further we'd need to know more about what he was doing, and I don't see that happening.


 
GCHQ is sig-int, so whatever he was doing would be related to that. I'm not aware that he was a linguist, which narrows the field down a bit to collation and/or data interpretation, so could be something as simple as him hearing something he shouldn't, and being upset by it - upset enough to think "I don't want to work for this government anymore".


----------



## teqniq (Apr 29, 2012)

elbows said:


> Punishment for what? Its not exactly a good recruitment tool, nor is it likely to make GCHQ employees leap at the chance of spending some time working for MI6.
> 
> To explore this possibility further we'd need to know more about what he was doing, and I don't see that happening.


 
Well if you don't go for the 'MI6 bumped him off' *insert reason here*' explanation then Roadkill's explanation is a suitable alternative. Either way him getting himself in there on his own is ludicrous imo.


----------



## StraightOuttaQ (Apr 29, 2012)

teqniq said:


> Well if you don't go for the 'MI6 bumped him off' *insert reason here*' explanation then Roadkill's explanation is a suitable alternative. Either way him getting himself in there on his own is ludicrous imo.


 
Mr Kill's post is sound and logical.

Either way I think we can rule out suicide or natural causes. In this case, there is a third party involved. the question then is who and why? Because of the way the body was found (ie it was found, not just a missing persons) whoever did it makes me think it was an operation which was not completed - All it would have taken is for one (very strong) person to take the bag out of the flat, and the only evidence would have disappeared forever. (There's a myriad of ways to dispose of it - if you can think about the resources available to do so if you were a naughty foreign or domestic government).

In short, My reckoning is that whatever happened was interrupted in the very final part of the cleaning-up phase, with enough corallating information to support a sexual motive or extreme bondage sex accident. Or Suspiscious circumstances. 

Motive is secondary - if there was a potential leak, then to who? That we do not have enough information to determine, though we can speculate and will continue to do so for many many years.

Either position is (MI6? Foreign intelligence agencies? Big crime organisations? Some dodgy bloke off the internet sex game went a little too far?) supportable from conjecture and deductive reasoning based on which aspect of the evidence you present and focus upon.

It's going to be one of those eternal mysteries, like the Vaticans banker found hanged under a bridge. Whoever knows the truth has nothing to gain and everything to lose by ever talking about it, and this will remain unresolved. I expect however, to see dodgy books being published every few years promising new evidence, a Fortean Times article, and - quite possibly - nothing released under the 30 year rule. We'll have to wait a hundred years before the papers are ever out, if ever.


----------



## elbows (Apr 29, 2012)

teqniq said:


> Well if you don't go for the 'MI6 bumped him off' *insert reason here*' explanation then Roadkill's explanation is a suitable alternative. Either way him getting himself in there on his own is ludicrous imo.


 
I remain open to all possibilities, they are all feasible as far as Im concerned. All Im trying to say is that I don't rue out the put himself in the bag explanation either, its not quite as ludicrous as some suggest, its certainly not impossible. 

I've never really understood why people are so keen to reach conclusions over this sort of thing, I am resigned to the prospect of never being sure about such cases.


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 29, 2012)

I'll just point out that rigor mortis is not instant and is temporary. Although I recon he was still warm when they put him in the bag. Warm, but not alive /speculation


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Apr 30, 2012)

I think this is very true



			
				Mark Urban  BBC said:
			
		

> His involvement in such sensitive matters of national security meant that they should have acted far sooner - certainly no more than 48-hours after he failed to turn up for work.
> While the expert witnesses and doctors disagree about many things, they are all convinced that there would have been a great deal more evidence to go on if his body had been discovered much sooner.
> Mr Williams did not like the working culture of MI6, according to his sister. If their attitude to his disappearance was anything to go by, one can understand why.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-17872671


----------



## DrRingDing (Apr 30, 2012)

In all the jobs I've been in any absence that has not been explained will be chased up within hours.

Whenever a colleague is missing someone makes an effort to contact them. I find it unfathomable that MI6 doesn't have formal procedures for this, let alone someone personally taking responsibility for their workmate.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Apr 30, 2012)

DotCommunist said:


> MI6 guy found rotting in a sports bag?
> 
> bizaarre wanking accident?
> 
> Someone somewhere knows why he was bagged up like that


 
You have a most beautiful turn of phrase, I salute you dotty.


----------



## Roadkill (Apr 30, 2012)

elbows said:


> I remain open to all possibilities, they are all feasible as far as Im concerned. All Im trying to say is that I don't rue out the put himself in the bag explanation either, its not quite as ludicrous as some suggest, its certainly not impossible.
> 
> I've never really understood why people are so keen to reach conclusions over this sort of thing, I am resigned to the prospect of never being sure about such cases.


 
You're quite right, of course: all we can do at the moment - possibly all we'll ever be able to do - is speculate.

I'm starting to think there might be more in the hypothesis that he locked himself in the bag, possibly for the purpose of knocking one out, than I did. As you say, it's not impossible he got himself into it, and it is starting to look as if it would fit into a pre-existing pattern of behaviour, given the incident at his landlady's place a few years ago. Unless you're paranoid enough to believe she's been made to spin that yarn by TPTB - which is possible but unlikely - then it seems to be strong evidence from an independent source that he was interested in all this, possibly for sexual reasons. I suppose it's also possible that, if someone did have him bumped off, they were aware of whatever kinks he might have had and engineered his death to look like that 'bizarre wanking accident.' Again, though, that seems to be straying into the realms of the paranoiac.

Tbh I'm getting less sure what to think the more comes out from the inquest.


----------



## claphamboy (Apr 30, 2012)

Roadkill said:


> Tbh I'm getting less sure what to think the more comes out from the inquest.


 
The shape-shifters plan is working.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Apr 30, 2012)

There are limited possibilities - essentially some pick'n'mix combination of...


He was alive when he went into the bag vs He was dead when he went into the bag
He put himself into the bag vs He went into the bag with assistance
Willingly vs Under duress

He locked the padlock vs Someone else locked the padlock
I'm sure there's a pretty diagram and all sorts of groovy mathematics in that.


----------



## Roadkill (Apr 30, 2012)

DrRingDing said:


> I find it unfathomable that MI6 doesn't have formal procedures for this, let alone someone personally taking responsibility for their workmate.


 
I agree - especially given the security-sensitive position he was in. It's astounding - and frankly one of the few things that does make me a bit suspicious about the UK security services' role in all this.

*edit* FWIW I still don't believe - as Mark Urban seems to think is possible - that it was a kinky shag with someone else that somehow went horribly wrong. I can't see someone who went along to his gaff for sex and killed him inadvertently being clear-headed enough to shove him in a sports bag, clear up every trace of their presence and leave without being seen. He might have been in the bag for sexual reasons, but if so it was most likely a solitary wank IMO.


----------



## UrbaneFox (Apr 30, 2012)

pinkmonkey said:


> I have never, ever met a tranny who shops in Dover Street Market ( where these clothes were bought from, over time, for a girlfriend, according to a witness statement from a store assistant there), they sell proper fashion hipster stuff, leftfield, not mainstream, or sexy or bling - more Bjork than Britney. Yep, I thought they were trying to set him up too, but with clothes from there? Naaah.
> 
> ETA maybe he was Londons first proper hipster tranny.


 
All trannys I have ever encountered wear dreadful clobber, like what their mums and aunties wore - chiffon scarves, naff blouses, slingback patent shoes, American tan tights.

However, I am of a certain age, so it will be interesting to see what "the younger generation" do with trannydom, given the many opportunities that the internet has brought when choosing clothes. I am sure there is a far greater choice of footwear than there used to be, for example.


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Apr 30, 2012)

UrbaneFox said:


> All trannys I have ever encountered wear dreadful clobber, like what their mums and aunties wore - chiffon scarves, naff blouses, slingback patent shoes, American tan tights.


Well, the ones that stick out like a sore thumb do. I've seen some really elegant and understated cross-dressers that you'd take a while to twig were blokes.


----------



## UrbaneFox (Apr 30, 2012)

I have led a sheltered, Daily Mail-orientated life. I still laugh at John Inman.


----------



## DotCommunist (May 2, 2012)

coroners verdict due like now. No unlawful death, narrative verdict, warns many questions will go unanswered.

We'll see.


----------



## TopCat (May 2, 2012)

It's a sham.


----------



## teqniq (May 2, 2012)

Hmmmm,



> The death of Gareth Williams, the MI6 officer who was found naked in a padlocked holdall in the bath at his London flat, was "criminally mediated", a coroner has said.
> 
> On the balance of probability, Williams was "unlawfully killed", Fiona Wilcox concluded, although she had earlier said there was not enough evidence to deliver a formal unlawful killing verdict....



http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/may/02/gareth-williams-coroner-never-solved


----------



## Teaboy (May 2, 2012)

Looks like a fair verdict from the evidence she has to go on, which was basically fuck all.

This is looking more and more like MI6 know a lot more then they are letting on.


----------



## DaveCinzano (May 2, 2012)

It's not a great advert for an organisation that's trying to sell itself as a meritocratic employer of talented, hip, young people.

"Come work for us! Interesting projects, fascinating people! Serve your country by rotting in a bag in curious circumstances!"


----------



## quimcunx (May 2, 2012)

People who imagine working for MI6 won't be imagining this happening to them or put off by it, I shouldn't think.


----------



## Roadkill (May 2, 2012)

Teaboy said:


> Looks like a fair verdict from the evidence she has to go on, which was basically fuck all.


 
I agree.  It's difficult to see what other verdict she could have reached, given the evidence available.

She's also right to say that the circumstances may never be fully explained.


----------



## London_Calling (May 2, 2012)

Well, it certainly wasn't an open and shut case.


----------



## danny la rouge (May 2, 2012)

DaveCinzano said:


> There are limited possibilities - essentially some pick'n'mix combination of...
> 
> 
> He was alive when he went into the bag vs He was dead when he went into the bag
> ...


 
Who saw the Friends episode when a stranger said to Joey: "I bet you couldn't get in that TV cabinet!", then locked him in before robbing the flat?


----------



## London_Calling (May 2, 2012)

Friends was shit, and also not real life.


----------



## danny la rouge (May 2, 2012)

No, Friends wasn't real life.  In real life they wouldn't always get the best sofa in the coffee shop whenever they walked in.


----------



## DotCommunist (May 2, 2012)

and also succesful outgoing young people don't stay in their flats 24/7. Paranoid drug abusers might though.

So We are never to know.

MI6 have made the OB look like useless cunts with this one


----------



## danny la rouge (May 2, 2012)

Is 47 young?  I'm in a lot.


----------



## Roadkill (May 2, 2012)

DotCommunist said:


> MI6 have made the OB look like useless cunts with this one


 
They haven't come out of it very well themselves tbf!


----------



## 8115 (May 2, 2012)

Roadkill said:


> They haven't come out of it very well themselves tbf!


 
Yeah, I was going to say that.  Keeping evidence from the police, not checking on someone who failed to turn up for work, other stuff about the "culture".


----------



## 5t3IIa (May 2, 2012)

8115 said:


> Yeah, I was going to say that. Keeping evidence from the police, not checking on someone who failed to turn up for work, other stuff about the "culture".


And whether they had a hand in his death or not (not, probably) they should have done a fuck of a better job about making sure it wasn't in every single newspaper for months and months. I don't pay my taxes for the secret services to not be able to cover this shit up


----------



## DotCommunist (May 2, 2012)

hmm, if it was MI6, would they not ave been able get a d notice?




			
				wikipedo said:
			
		

> DA-Notice 05: United Kingdom Security & Intelligence Special Services


----------



## ymu (May 2, 2012)

Coroner did a pretty good job there. Two hour narrative verdict, harsh criticism of the security services and police, and a pretty strong rejection of the auto-erotic/cross-dressing stuff as an unconvincing distraction. The article is quite detailed and worth a read, but this kind of sticks out:



> Wilcox said she found it "highly unlikely" that Williams got inside the bag alone, saying a lack of hand and footprints in the bathroom was significant. "In relation to the prints found within the bathroom, in my view what was more significant was what was not found rather than what was found."
> 
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/may/02/gareth-williams-coroner-never-solved


----------



## trashpony (May 2, 2012)

So the coroner has concluded that he couldn't have zipped himself into the bag and padlocked that. I could have told her that


----------



## wayward bob (May 2, 2012)

trashpony said:


> So the coroner has concluded that he couldn't have zipped himself into the bag and padlocked that. I could have told her that


 
how many times have _you_ tried?


----------



## trashpony (May 2, 2012)

wayward bob said:


> how many times have _you_ tried?


Only once and I couldn't do the zip all the way up


----------



## wayward bob (May 2, 2012)

the dude in the vid was doing it all wrong i reckon - you zip the face end up last


----------



## quimcunx (May 2, 2012)

wayward bob said:


> the dude in the vid was doing it all wrong i reckon - you zip the face end up last


 
I hope that was one of the 300 ways.


----------



## El Jugador (May 2, 2012)

Yeah the point is, if he was naked when he climbed into the bag (which would have had to already been in the bath), he would have left bare footprints on the bathroom floor, so instead he must have been carried (already in the bag) into the bath by someone else.

I wonder if a block of dry ice had been dropped into the bath with him in the bag, would anything remain afterwards to be detectable? You could probably persuade someone to climb naked into a bag if you told them their clothing was most likely bugged and you wanted to smuggle them out of there.


----------



## elbows (May 2, 2012)

El Jugador said:


> I wonder if a block of dry ice had been dropped into the bath with him in the bag, would anything remain afterwards to be detectable? You could probably persuade someone to climb naked into a bag if you told them their clothing was most likely bugged and you wanted to smuggle them out of there.



To convince them to do that I think you'd be a lot better off with a better explanation and a larger bag.


----------



## TheHoodedClaw (May 2, 2012)

El Jugador said:


> I wonder if a block of dry ice had been dropped into the bath with him in the bag, would anything remain afterwards to be detectable?


 
Oh that's very devious! *phones Scotland Yard*


----------



## DotCommunist (May 2, 2012)

it's so annoying, not even a concrete COD.

in the absence of any truth I'm sticking to my ricin speculation. For no other reason than thats an old school spook poison


----------



## William of Walworth (May 2, 2012)

Just watched the BBC Wales special on this -- did anyone else?

Links to it on this page

Not being following this thread (yet) but very much hoping out-and-out conspiranoid posters have stayed away from this so far. They'll have an absolute field day with this. PLENTY of space in all those gaps for made up shit!  

Meanwhile, lots to read/catch up on with this case .....


----------



## elbows (May 2, 2012)

DotCommunist said:


> hmm, if it was MI6, would they not ave been able get a d notice?


 
I would think the devil would be in the detail on this one. The DA-Notice system looks like it has a pretty broad reach, but I imagine they have to employ some care as to how they use it so as to maintain most of its credibility in the eyes of the journalists and publications that stick to its guidelines.

Im sure it can be used to keep quiet all sorts of details ranging from the routine methods to specifics of certain events, and ensuring this information is not widely known does help to prevent people from putting all sorts of pieces together and making interesting discoveries or revelations as a result. However I would think that trying to cover up certain incidents, of a certain magnitude or public significance, by crudely stamping on a glaring piece of evidence that is hard to justify covering up, would risk the equivalent of a 'constitutional crisis' in regards to the DA-system. I bet they push their luck at times, and the scope of 'national defence' can be stretched in some interesting directions, but there is only so far they can go in some directions.

In this case I assume there is a certain amount of potentially relevant background material that we will not hear about for the reason of 'protecting methods', an area the uk seem to always have been exceptionally protective of, to the extent of causing ourselves other political & legal trouble with terrorists etc as a result of not wanting to make a step of any size towards openness in this area. But without knowing the detail of any of these methods, it is of course impossible to say whether any of them would have shed significant light on this case. Perhaps not, since it may be other aspects of for example MI6's secrecy which prevent the most relevant stuff emerging, you don't need a DA-note if no journalist knows the interesting info, and journalists working in this field will probably know well already what is generally off-limits.

The other big area where DA-notices could potentially apply to this case is if another country was involved. They have a multitude of reasons for wanting stuff kept quiet on this front and again unless they push it too far, I would think journalists & their publications would find it very easy to buy into these explanations without much grumbling. But again this case contains so few threads to pick at that we can't even ascertain how likely an international angle may have been, whereas there are some other suspicious death cases which have a more obvious potential international aspect.

Bah, secrecy on many levels is one of the large barriers that gets in the way of my best hopes for a better world. But I doubt much more progress will be made on this unless as it applies to sensitive internal & external matters unless we first see rather radical changes to the entire game of international relations, business and domestic politics. Information technology has interesting potential when applied to very different ways of human organisation and rational decision making by a wide variety of people. But some rather powerful human traits & desires, not to mention all the vested interests already present, make it less than likely we will ever get a chance to explore the real potential of information and openness.


----------



## elbows (May 2, 2012)

William of Walworth said:


> Not being following this thread but very much hoping out-and-out conspiranoid posters have stayed away from this so far. They'll have an absolute field day with this. PLENTY of space in all those gaps for made up shit!


 
If conspiranoids were all over the thread then it would probably be a gazillion pages long by now, so no, they haven't soiled this thread.

What we've mostly had is quite a wide spectrum of reasonable speculation. And those who wanted to reach conclusions have not attempted in pious ernest to get everyone else to sign up to a wild and specific story.

Likely reasons for conspiranoids not to bite into this one too deeply are that there is actually too much space, not enough dots for them to join with other wild dots plucked from the bowels of their belief systems.

Also there is a lack of the 'evidence' that conspiracy types like. Not enough official evidence that they can poke weird holes in, nor 'evidence' of their own that usually consists of wild quotes from the usual suspects or really badly analysed visual evidence.

Anyway Im very happy that this thread didn't descend to the conspiracy babbling and barrage of conspiraloon-bashing that so often happens - it doesn't matter when this happens on threads where the entire theory is wacky and fact-free from the offset, but we really should be able to speculate when someone dies in an interesting manner, without getting distracted by anything to do with the term conspiracy theory. I doubt u75 scores mightily well in this regard judging by some of the other cases of the last decade, but I guess when the death is of someone who certainly worked for the intelligence services then its easier for the discussion to proceed without too many distracting squabbles.


----------



## elbows (May 2, 2012)

El Jugador said:


> I wonder if a block of dry ice had been dropped into the bath with him in the bag, would anything remain afterwards to be detectable? You could probably persuade someone to climb naked into a bag if you told them their clothing was most likely bugged and you wanted to smuggle them out of there.


 
I just thought of another flaw with that. I reckon that if you want to smuggle someone in a bag, neither you nor they would want the bag to have suspicious human-shaped bulges. So thats another reason for using a larger or different type of carrying device, beyond the small size of bag reducing the chances of persuading the person to get in it which I already mentioned.


----------



## William of Walworth (May 2, 2012)

elbows said:


> If conspiranoids were all over the thread then it would probably be a gazillion pages long by now, so no, they haven't soiled this thread.
> 
> What we've mostly had is quite a wide spectrum of reasonable speculation. And those who wanted to reach conclusions have not attempted in pious ernest to get everyone else to sign up to a wild and specific story.
> 
> ...


 
Bolded bit : I broadly agree with you, and I also have no problem with informed/sensible speculation either (around what fragmented evidence there is, anyway).

But I think you're posting a *really* false equivalence in that para -- conspira-bashing on here and elsewhere, whether overblown or not, _mainly_ (I accept not exclusively!) happens in the face of out and out insanity (which is why like you I'm glad if there hasn't been any in this thread)

I appreciate the above's somewhat off topic so will try and catch up with this thread and other relevant stuff, and get back to the real meat of this when I get time

Meanwhile, here's the BBC's  main story FWIW.


----------



## elbows (May 2, 2012)

William of Walworth said:


> But I think you're posting a *really* false equivalence in that para -- conspira-bashing on here and elsewhere, whether overblown or not, _mainly_ (I accept not exclusively!) happens in the face of out and out insanity (which is why like you I'm glad if there hasn't been any in this thread)


 
Im not suggesting they are identical, what Im suggesting is that there is a variety of opinion when it comes to judging where the line between insane theories and more reasonable ones is to be drawn, and that on occasions this has made quite the mess of certain threads. Its more an observation than a complaint though as such threads are still fun or informative in their own way, but sometimes we do end up with more murk than we started with. Im sure that we could get quite a large percentage of u75 posters to agree when identifying most of the totally batshit crazy theory threads.

Not so when it comes to a range of other stuff though. Someone dying in a certain way with certain timing and framed with a wider political or financial backdrop will often lead to overheating threads where we clash a lot on where that line of reason can be drawn. In this case it didn't really overheat because the backdrop is almost non-existent and very generic, there is so little evidence to get loudly convinced about, and the person that died wasn't high-profile. The same cannot be said for a small handful of other deaths for which many theories and threads have been established over the years. I don't even want to name any of them as I'll just run the risk of starting arguments about them here which is the last thing I want.

At least this phenomenon does not happen too often when people come up with interesting explanations for political or state decisions either domestic or international. We seem to allow ourselves a lot more space to discuss such things without a terribly high burden of proof, slightly more forgiving of fanciful ideas, less likely to need to brand someone a conspiraloon. But thats probably because the most notable and disruptive conspiraloons rarely talk about any real politics, and there are plenty of other ugly terms with which to brand people who've taken a stance that winds us up in the course of political discussions.


----------



## elbows (May 2, 2012)

Personally nothing emerged that enabled me to buy into the work-related murder possibility with far more gusto than I had before. But given the lack of certainty in so many areas, I think that the coroner is quite right to point in the direction of 3rd party involvement. This is simply because if your words have some power and relevance and you can't be reasonably certain about something, you should err on the side of leaving more open the possibility that involves another human or organisation having been involved with a death. This is in order that you do not unwittingly help cover up a serious crime or close down avenues that could eventually detect & even solve the crime, no matter how unlikely the prospects of this ever happening are. I expect that sadly this does not always happen, and for example that there are some suicides out there that actually were not suicides at all.


----------



## DotCommunist (May 2, 2012)

TBH the only thing I have any certainty in my own head that he didn't do himself in.

I've my suspicions but they are mere speculation against the damn certainty that this was not a wank gone wrong


----------



## DotCommunist (May 2, 2012)

I like how plod are keeping case active and asking anyone who knows owt to come forward. Yeh, like anyone who knows anything would. It's quite clear that you'd end up impaled on a poker during some self adminstered bum fun wanking episode.

and the evidence relevant would vanish


----------



## Pickman's model (May 2, 2012)

DotCommunist said:


> I like how plod are keeping case active and asking anyone who knows owt to come forward. Yeh, like anyone who knows anything would. It's quite clear that you'd end up impaled on a poker during some self adminstered bum fun wanking episode.
> 
> and the evidence relevant would vanish


i tried attending a police station on this very subject today only to be turned away.


----------



## teqniq (May 2, 2012)

@ DC Well yes unfortunately I think if not bang on you're very close to the mark. I liked the coroner's verdict but at the same time I thought the only way we're going to know anything more about this is if someone who actually _knows_ what happened furnishing us with the information. Not bloody likely imo for the reasons or variations thereof you have suggested,


----------



## mauvais (May 2, 2012)

One thing I haven't seen mentioned very much, though it's not a secret, is that there is a 95+% chance that MI6/GCHQ knew all about his interests and personal life because _he would have told them. _If there was any credible doubt then he wouldn't have ended up working where he did. It's pretty much certain that he was DV'd and therefore would have been interviewed (& referenced) about his personal life in order to counter potential blackmail. They're not bothered if you habitually lock yourself into bags, as long as you're not embarrassed by it.


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## ymu (May 2, 2012)

elbows said:


> Personally nothing emerged that enabled me to buy into the work-related murder possibility with far more gusto than I had before. But given the lack of certainty in so many areas, I think that the coroner is quite right to point in the direction of 3rd party involvement. This is simply because if your words have some power and relevance and you can't be reasonably certain about something, you should err on the side of leaving more open the possibility that involves another human or organisation having been involved with a death. This is in order that you do not unwittingly help cover up a serious crime or close down avenues that could eventually detect & even solve the crime, no matter how unlikely the prospects of this ever happening are. I expect that sadly this does not always happen, and for example that there are some suicides out there that actually were not suicides at all.


Most coroner's verdicts can be made 'on the balance of probabilities' but verdicts of suicide or unlawful killing have to meet the higher criminal standard of 'beyond reasonable doubt', for obvious reasons.

She opted for a narrative verdict because the required standard of evidence was not available for a verdict of unlawful killing. The alternative was to bring an open verdict, which (as you say), would just allow it to be buried more easily.

/point of information


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## laptop (May 2, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> GCHQ is sig-int, so whatever he was doing would be related to that. I'm not aware that he was a linguist, which narrows the field down a bit to collation and/or data interpretation, so could be something as simple as him hearing something he shouldn't, and being upset by it - upset enough to think "I don't want to work for this government anymore".


 
But he was a mathematician. Areas of work _known_ to be possible include:


Old-fashioned code- and encryption-breaking
The mathematics of networks - _efficient_ ways of identifying key figures from who-talks-with-whom records, for example
Time-series analysis of events, following the recent resurgence of interest in the work of  Lewis _Fry_ Richardson
It seems likely that his secondment to 6 narrows his work _for them_ down to something _applied_like the first two above - unless there's been a breakthrough in event prediction from time series that makes it, too, applied.

If he had a hankering for pure maths, that in itself would be sufficient to account for his wish to leave. Asking a pure mathematician to do applied is worse than asking Lucian Freud to paint your bathroom.


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## Pickman's model (May 3, 2012)

laptop said:


> But he was a mathematician. Areas of work _known_ to be possible include:
> 
> 
> Old-fashioned code- and encryption-breaking
> ...


i think you'd be more likely to get some work out of the mathematician than out of lucian freud


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## laptop (May 3, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> i think you'd be more likely to get some work out of the mathematician than out of lucian freud


 
Why would I ask a mathematician (even a live one) to paint my bathroom? 

 Probably end up with a non-periodic tiling...


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## Citizen66 (May 3, 2012)

Because they can paint by numbers.


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## laptop (May 3, 2012)

Citizen66 said:


> Because they can paint by numbers.


 
That'd be an accountant


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## El Jugador (May 3, 2012)

laptop said:


> Why would I ask a mathematician (even a live one) to paint my bathroom?
> 
> Probably end up with a non-periodic tiling...


To help calculate if you have enough sampler-pots to do each wall in a single colour?


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## 2hats (May 8, 2012)

Met police chief suggests DNA screening of MI6 staff.

Is that a horrible, yet mysterious shaving accident I see on the horizon?


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## Puddy_Tat (May 8, 2012)

2hats said:


> Met police chief suggests DNA screening of MI6 staff.


 


> In a speech on Tuesday, Mr Hogan-Howe said any screening of staff at MI6 would be voluntary and could involve just a few officers or many.


 


IF there was a top secret bit of MI6 that goes round bumping off members of its own staff who have done / threatened to do something that the establishment don't like, what are the chances (a) that such people would actually officially be on the books of MI6 and (b) that they would volunteer to give a DNA sample in such circumstances?


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## fjydj (May 9, 2012)

video of girl locking up bag from inside, makes it looks pretty easy

link to video warning theres ads first… and its a bit long


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## weltweit (May 10, 2012)

convinces me, he could have done it alone!


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## Pickman's model (May 10, 2012)

But why the fuck would he?


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## weltweit (May 10, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> But why the fuck would he?


Possibly he got into the bag to prove that he could and then found he could not get out of it.


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## London_Calling (May 10, 2012)

LOL ... 'experts' tried three hundred times to do that.


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## rekil (May 10, 2012)

fjydj said:


> video of girl locking up bag from inside, makes it looks pretty easy
> 
> link to video warning theres ads first… and its a bit long


Let the record show that my cat was fascinated by that vid, and was pawing the screen at the 1.10 mark.


----------



## equationgirl (May 10, 2012)

laptop said:


> But he was a mathematician. <snip>
> 
> 
> If he had a hankering for pure maths, that in itself would be sufficient to account for his wish to leave. Asking a pure mathematician to do applied is worse than asking Lucian Freud to paint your bathroom.


 
 True


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## DotCommunist (May 10, 2012)

cba to watch the vid, can anyone tell me if she manages the padlock as well?


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## quimcunx (May 10, 2012)

Was Gareth the same size and litheness as the 16 year old girl or the expert from before?  And why didn't she do it in the bath?


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## Citizen66 (May 10, 2012)

weltweit said:


> Possibly he got into the bag to prove that he could and then found he could not get out of it.



And realised that it would be an easier feat if he placed it in the bath and tried not to get any finger or footprints on it in the process...


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## weltweit (May 10, 2012)

Citizen66 said:


> And realised that it would be an easier feat if he placed it in the bath and tried not to get any finger or footprints on it in the process...


I think we have to face facts, the guy was a bit odd (understatement) he was into pure maths, cycled competitively, likely dressed up in womens clothes (owned a £2,000 pair of womens shoes) and had to be rescued when he was tied up on a bed in a quasi bondage scenario. Doing it in the bath was likely quite normal for him!


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## London_Calling (May 10, 2012)

and he was Welsh!


----------



## London_Calling (May 10, 2012)

quimcunx said:


> Was Gareth the same size and litheness as the 16 year old girl or the expert from before? And why didn't she do it in the bath?


He was about 9 stone soaking wet. And he'd been at this for years. He could have joined Cirque du Soleil.


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## quimcunx (May 10, 2012)

London_Calling said:


> and he was Welsh!


 
This is the most compelling evidence in support of self-pwning, tbf.


----------



## weltweit (May 10, 2012)

Well, he was not happy at work, that we do know, perhaps this was a bizzare suicide attempt.


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## DotCommunist (May 10, 2012)

the coroner agrees with me, someone done him in.


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## London_Calling (May 10, 2012)

did they fuck.


----------



## Giles (May 10, 2012)

DaveCinzano said:


> There are limited possibilities - essentially some pick'n'mix combination of...
> 
> 
> He was alive when he went into the bag vs He was dead when he went into the bag
> ...


 
If you do assume that he was bumped off by some secret agent, you've then got to think:

Why do it in a way guaranteed to attract maximum public interest, and also in a way that creates a neat puzzle for everyone to speculate about for evermore? Surely "they" must have ways of making a death look like natural causes / overdose / suicide / accident?

You've then got:

1. "they" just have a weird way of doing things.
2. "they" were about to stroll out of the flat with the body in a bag to hide somewhere, but were interrupted.
3. "they" did it in this way precisely to "send a message" to others that "they" did it, to stop those others from doing something (like spilling the beans about some dodgy goings-on?)

If 3. its not THAT effective.

Not like this guy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_of_Alexander_Litvinenko   for example.

By doing what "they" did to him, they were clearly warning off other former agents thinking of going public about the nefarious deeds that had gone on, and making it totally clear who was behind it, far more effectively than if they'd just shot him or something.

Maybe this was the aim, but MI6 just aren't as nasty or effective as the FSB?

Giles..


----------



## trevhagl (May 12, 2012)

i think this one stretches even the Urban establishment whore tendency a bit much


----------



## ymu (May 12, 2012)

trevhagl said:


> i think this one stretches even the Urban establishment whore tendency a bit much


Successful smear job though, eh. People still arguing that he could have locked himself in the bag in a tragic accident/bizarre suicide attempt, despite the fact that the flat was clean of all forensics. How does a naked man leave behind no footprints before locking himself into a bag in a bath.


----------



## Mephitic (May 12, 2012)

ymu said:


> Successful smear job though, eh. People still arguing that he could have locked himself in the bag in a tragic accident/bizarre suicide attempt, despite the fact that the flat was clean of all forensics. How does a naked man leave behind no footprints before locking himself into a bag in a bath.


 
the above....... fo'shizzle

in addition i particularly liked the absurd notion of the police going round to mi6 and collecting voluntary dna form the folk working there...... actually that still fucking cracks me up.


----------



## 8115 (May 12, 2012)

Edited:  too much witless speculation


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## quimcunx (May 12, 2012)

damn, missed it.


----------



## 8115 (May 12, 2012)

Sorry!


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## trevhagl (May 16, 2012)

ymu said:


> Successful smear job though, eh. People still arguing that he could have locked himself in the bag in a tragic accident/bizarre suicide attempt, despite the fact that the flat was clean of all forensics. How does a naked man leave behind no footprints before locking himself into a bag in a bath.


 
it was the angels that did it , forensically aware angels from spook heaven


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## Mrs Magpie (May 16, 2012)

iirc, the Met detective, Broster, who 'investigated' this and was criticised by the coroner, was also in charge of the case where Sam Hallam was wrongfuly convicted.


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## weltweit (May 16, 2012)

slippers!


----------



## OneStrike (May 16, 2012)

Mrs Magpie said:


> iirc, the Met detective, Broster, who 'investigated' this and was criticised by the coroner, was also in charge of the case where Sam Hallam was wrongfuly convicted.


 
Damn, really?  ffs  It runs deep within this whole cuntry.


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## Mrs Magpie (May 16, 2012)

I think Broster just decided GW was strange, ergo he must have put himself in the bag and Broster only looked at things that fitted his theory. A bit like how Sam Hallam got fitted up really.


----------



## OneStrike (May 16, 2012)

Scary to think circumstances could see you get life for doing nothing wrong, it really is my nightmare.  Broster thinks i'm guilty, i can't prove otherwise


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 17, 2012)

ymu said:


> Successful smear job though, eh. People still arguing that he could have locked himself in the bag in a tragic accident/bizarre suicide attempt, despite the fact that the flat was clean of all forensics. How does a naked man leave behind no footprints before locking himself into a bag in a bath.


 
Levitation. He was an adherent of Transcendental Meditation, obviously.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 17, 2012)

weltweit said:


> slippers!


 
Slippers still leave tell-tales.


----------



## London_Calling (May 17, 2012)

I suspect people have trouble understanding how incompetent the police are a lot of the time - too much tv perhaps.


----------



## DotCommunist (May 17, 2012)

so just the coroner, the family, old bill and everyone else except London Calling thinks this set up stinks. Wise old LC, knows better than, well everybody. Including the coroner. Fuck me...


----------



## London_Calling (May 17, 2012)

Does that include the coroner?

btw, the verdict was partly based on Mr Expert - the 300 times expert, as disproved by some provincial reporter.

Half this board have started taking jazzzz's loon tablets.


----------



## DotCommunist (May 17, 2012)

we both listened to the verdict.


still, I'm sure you know better than everyone involved in the case.


----------



## London_Calling (May 17, 2012)

Still,  don't act the cunt.


----------



## stuff_it (May 17, 2012)

Chip Barm said:


> Video of fella trying to lock himself in a bag.
> 
> Top comment "Is It wrong that i have a Boner ?"



He should have started with the knees end obvs and then chased the zip back round once it was done up if it was found by the feet. 

/takestoomuchonholiday.com


----------



## DotCommunist (May 21, 2012)

London_Calling said:


> Still, don't act the cunt.


 

Yes, forgive my sarkyness, not warranted for anything other than cheapo point scoring smartassery.


But really, look to the honed cleaver of occam here. When even the official voices investigating aren't saying much except 'he did not die in a lawful manner'. When posters normally not known to indulge in conspiracy theories and the evidence itself is so suspect in so many regards does it not occur to you that you might not be right on this one?

I should imagine the coroner was privy to more information than you or I. MI6 have those memory sticks teh filth have not seen. Does this really, really strike you as just an onanistic escapade gone south? Really. If you can be arsed I'd like you to argue your case for simple misadventure. Cos I am really not seeing it.


----------



## fogbat (May 21, 2012)

trevhagl said:


> i think this one stretches even the Urban establishment whore tendency a bit much


Christ, you're a fucking moron.

Go off on one about Diana again, won't you?


----------



## Roadkill (May 21, 2012)

ymu said:


> Successful smear job though, eh. People still arguing that he could have locked himself in the bag in a tragic accident/bizarre suicide attempt, despite the fact that the flat was clean of all forensics. How does a naked man leave behind no footprints before locking himself into a bag in a bath.


 
But was it _completely_ clear of forensics, though? Sure, there was little there in forensic terms to show anyone else's presence, but that does that mean that his own traces weren't all over the place, including in the bathroom, exactly as you'd expect in his own flat and therefore not a cause for suspicion?

FWIW I think it's far more likely than not that someone else was involved and perhaps also that TPTB know far more than they're letting on - including to the Coroner - but that does leave outstanding the fact that Williams evidently had a penchant for getting into tight situations. Given that it wasn't impossible - very difficult, but not impossible - for him to have got into that bag himself, surely that has to leave open the possibility, though only that, that his death was some sort of accident.

There seem to be three ways of reconciling all this:
1. His former landlady was either making up stories or had been coached/coerced to tell the tale she did at the inquest about Williams tying himself to the bed, and stuff about his sexuality really is just a smear
2. She was telling the truth, and whoever killed him knew about his sexual kinks and used them to help cover up a murder
3. Whoever killed him did not know about it, dumped him in the bag for other reasons altogether, and it's just coincidence that it looks a bit like a wanking accident involving a fetish he may well have had.

Any of them is possible, I suppose, and we'll probably never find out for certain in any of our lifetimes, so take your pick...

*edit* One further thought. Much as I said several pages back that a foreign intelligence service or possibly someone connected with organised crime (of the kind he was apparently working on) might be a candidate for murderer, if either (1) or (2) of the above is correct then I'd say the balance of probability swings towards the British secret services, since they'd be more likely than anyone else to know about his sexual predilections and/or more able to persuade someone to spin yarns about them.


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## southside (May 21, 2012)

My brother and sister stuffed me in a bag with just my head sticking out and decided to swing it over the stairwell, we were laughing then my dad came up stairs to see what all the noise was they dropped the bag and scarpered, all I could muster as an excuse was "They put me in this bag."


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## Mrs Magpie (May 21, 2012)

southside said:


> My bother.....


I bet he was and all


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## southside (May 21, 2012)

Mrs Magpie said:


> I bet he was and all


 
I'm partially sighted, ffs.  It's getting worse


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## Mrs Magpie (May 21, 2012)

Great anecdote, just the job. This thread needed a good anecdote


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## Louloubelle (May 21, 2012)

I have not read the whole thread so sorry in advance if anyone has posted about this before....

I was initially dismissive of the idea that Gareth would have climbed into the bag for reasons of gratification simply because the bag was an ordinary sports bag and not a "special" bag of some kind.  Then I go thinking about how many autistic spectrum people are comforted by being held very firmly and tightly and I wondered whether this might have been something that an aspie person (given his skills I think it extremely likely that he was a high functioning aspie) might have experimented with, especially at times of stress, as a way of feeling comforted.

I found an interesting article re this very issue (the issue of people on the autistic spectrum being comforted by being held tightly, not Gareth's untimely death.

http://www.grandin.com/inc/squeeze.html 

I think that there are so many possibilities and I doubt that we will ever know what really happened.  I do feel very sorry for his family as the circumstances of the death and the salacious reporting by some sections of the press must be incredibly traumatic for them.


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## Orang Utan (May 22, 2012)

Did you know him, Louloubelle?


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## Louloubelle (May 22, 2012)

No, not at all.

I referred to him by his name because I think that calling him "the spy in the bag" is kind of a bit insensitive.

When I first heard about the death I thought that I might have met him at a party in Wales, but it was an aspie astro-physicist genius cross-dresser who was studying at Bangor but not actually Welsh.


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## Orang Utan (May 22, 2012)

Williams then. Have some respect.


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## xenon (May 22, 2012)

Has anyone else in the history of stuff ever been recorded as dying due locking themself in a bag? The bennefit of the doubt  do not go to the secret service.


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## quimcunx (May 22, 2012)

houdini?


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## goldenecitrone (May 22, 2012)

Must be weird to become a word passed down in history, when it isn't even your real name.


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## Louloubelle (May 22, 2012)

There are countless reports of accidental death due to auto-erotic constriction, although the usual method is via ligature rather than by whole body constriction. 

If the death was related to a sexual activity gone wrong then the aim of the activity would probably have been either breath play or bodily constriction or possibly both.  I suppose it might be possible that he could have had previous situations where he got inside the bag and managed to get out again, although according to the news reports I read he would have suffocated quickly inside the bag once he was locked in, so this seems unlikely.  It might just be that he liked climbing into bags but that he tried to make it a bit more extreme as time went on, possibly by choosing a smaller bag each time, until he reached the point at which he couldn't free himself before he suffocated.


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## Louloubelle (May 22, 2012)

quimcunx said:


> houdini?


 
Houdini died by being punched in the stomach 

He asked a very strong man to punch him in the guts and, as he tensed his stomach muscles, the guy punched him and he was fine.  The guy waited until Houdini was relaxed and them hit him hard intending to catch him off guard.  Unfortunately it killed him


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## DexterTCN (May 22, 2012)

I think that the message being sent was the bag, not the body.  I've no idea who from/to.


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## bi0boy (May 22, 2012)

Louloubelle said:


> There are countless reports of accidental death due to auto-erotic constriction, although the usual method is via ligature rather than by whole body constriction.
> 
> If the death was related to a sexual activity gone wrong then the aim of the activity would probably have been either breath play or bodily constriction or possibly both. I suppose it might be possible that he could have had previous situations where he got inside the bag and managed to get out again, although according to the news reports I read he would have suffocated quickly inside the bag once he was locked in, so this seems unlikely. It might just be that he liked climbing into bags but that he tried to make it a bit more extreme as time went on, possibly by choosing a smaller bag each time, until he reached the point at which he couldn't free himself before he suffocated.


 
I doubt any such fun and games would involve trying not to leave footprints or hand marks in the bathroom.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (May 22, 2012)

Louloubelle said:


> There are countless reports of accidental death due to auto-erotic constriction, although the usual method is via ligature rather than by whole body constriction.
> 
> If the death was related to a sexual activity gone wrong then the aim of the activity would probably have been either breath play or bodily constriction or possibly both. I suppose it might be possible that he could have had previous situations where he got inside the bag and managed to get out again, although according to the news reports I read he would have suffocated quickly inside the bag once he was locked in, so this seems unlikely. It might just be that he liked climbing into bags but that he tried to make it a bit more extreme as time went on, possibly by choosing a smaller bag each time, until he reached the point at which he couldn't free himself before he suffocated.


 
The bag was padlocked. How did that happen?


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## Bahnhof Strasse (May 22, 2012)

DexterTCN said:


> I think that the message being sent was the bag, not the body. I've no idea who from/to.


 
Someone from SuperDry JPN making a statement?


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## weltweit (May 22, 2012)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> The bag was padlocked. How did that happen?


Either he, or someone else padlocked it. Did you see the video of the girl doing it on her own?


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## DexterTCN (May 22, 2012)

weltweit said:


> Either he, or someone else padlocked it. Did you see the video of the girl doing it on her own?


Padlocking it would not be as impressive as cleaning all the foot-prints from the floor after being zipped up in it.


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## weltweit (May 22, 2012)

DexterTCN said:


> Padlocking it would not be as impressive as cleaning all the foot-prints from the floor after being zipped up in it.


I am not sure we know that there were no footprints at all, do we?


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## DexterTCN (May 22, 2012)

weltweit said:


> I am not sure we know that there were no footprints at all, do we?


On google news just put in 'mi6 murder footprints' and you can quickly confirm no fingerprints/footprints at the scene.


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## Louloubelle (May 22, 2012)

The footprint thing does sound significant, although I don't know enough about footprints to know whether it would be expected for them to be present.  I understand about muddy footprints and bloody footprints, but do ordinary shoes leave them if they are relatively clean?  Fingerprints is another thing.  Presumably it would be expected for mr Williams' fingerprints to be everywhere as it was his bathroom.  If the police are saying that there were no footprints or fingerprints when it would be expected to find them in usual circumstances, then yes that is obviously significant.


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## Mrs Magpie (May 22, 2012)

He was barefoot and only wearing boxer shorts. The flat was very forensically clean, but especially the bathroom.


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## quimcunx (May 22, 2012)

What does forensically clean mean though?  Was the bathroom unusually clean, wiped clean of even williams' fingerprints or that there was nothing which could not be easily explained by the normal use of the bathroom by Williams?


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## 8115 (May 22, 2012)

quimcunx said:


> What does forensically clean mean though? Was the bathroom unusually clean, wiped clean of even williams' fingerprints or that there was nothing which could not be easily explained by the normal use of the bathroom by Williams?


 
It's uh secret   Presumably such is the way of the secret servicers.


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## 8115 (May 22, 2012)

Or printing is more difficult than police dramas would lead you to think.


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## Mrs Magpie (May 22, 2012)

quimcunx said:


> What does forensically clean mean though? Was the bathroom unusually clean, wiped clean of even williams' fingerprints or that there was nothing which could not be easily explained by the normal use of the bathroom by Williams?


The normal stuff of life was not there as expected. More so than just someone who was a bit of a clean freak. The bathroom was particularly free of anything they'd normally expect to see.


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## 8115 (May 22, 2012)

Mrs Magpie said:


> The normal stuff of life was not there as expected. More so than just someone who was a bit of a clean freak. The bathroom was particularly free of anything they'd normally expect to see.


 
The bathroom was veh dirty.  They showed it on C4 news.  I was surprised!


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## Mrs Magpie (May 22, 2012)

Like someone forensically aware had cleaned up in the bathroom.


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## Mrs Magpie (May 22, 2012)

8115 said:


> The bathroom was veh dirty. They showed it on C4 news. I was surprised!


Were the pics taken before soco had been in there or after?


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## Mrs Magpie (May 22, 2012)

When soco went through my place with their graphite powder after a burglary the place did not look clean.


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## 8115 (May 22, 2012)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Were the pics taken before soco had been in there or after?


 
Dunno.  Mould, and that.  I doubt SOCO would clean up mould.  I don't see them as the Aggie and Kim of the police world.


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## 8115 (May 22, 2012)

Mrs Magpie said:


> When soco went through my place with their graphite powder after a burglary the place did not look clean.


 
Ah.  Yeah, could be.  Ugh.  Poor bastard.


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## London_Calling (May 22, 2012)

What would be more odd, that he was almost obsessive about cleanliness, that he spent a fortune of womens clothes, or that he was known to enjoy restricting himself to the point of needing help to get out?

This was a very odd fish. You would expect odd behaviour. In fact, in relation to restricting himself, you would expect *expert* odd behaviour given how long he'd been doing it and that he was a very bright odd fish.

I don't know what parameters of behaviour you're measuring him against but - like the so-called *experts* - I do believe you underestimate him in several respects. He was out of their league, and he's way outside the parameters of behaviour some here assume.


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## DexterTCN (May 23, 2012)

quimcunx said:


> What does forensically clean mean though? Was the bathroom unusually clean, wiped clean of even williams' fingerprints or that there was nothing which could not be easily explained by the normal use of the bathroom by Williams?


There was no forensic evidence in the house. Apart from one bit on the bag which turned out, 18 moths later I think, to belong to a scientist who inspected the scene.

Not one bit.

That must be why they had to wait a week to find him...really clean that place.


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## Citizen66 (May 23, 2012)

London_Calling said:


> What would be more odd, that he was almost obsessive about cleanliness, that he spent a fortune of womens clothes, or that he was known to enjoy restricting himself to the point of needing help to get out?
> 
> This was a very odd fish. You would expect odd behaviour. In fact, in relation to restricting himself, you would expect *expert* odd behaviour given how long he'd been doing it and that he was a very bright odd fish.
> 
> I don't know what parameters of behaviour you're measuring him against but - like the so-called *experts* - I do believe you underestimate him in several respects. He was out of their league, and he's way outside the parameters of behaviour some here assume.


 
I respect your insider knowledge on what constitutes a strange person. You're far better placed than most to comment. Still, it seems odd that his employers didn't go looking for him for however long (ten days was it?). Especially given he was just a lowly bin man working for the council and they're ten-a-penny.


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## DotCommunist (May 23, 2012)

London_Calling said:


> What would be more odd, that he was almost obsessive about cleanliness, that he spent a fortune of womens clothes, or that he was known to enjoy restricting himself to the point of needing help to get out?
> 
> This was a very odd fish. You would expect odd behaviour. In fact, in relation to restricting himself, you would expect *expert* odd behaviour given how long he'd been doing it and that he was a very bright odd fish.
> 
> I don't know what parameters of behaviour you're measuring him against but - like the so-called *experts* - I do believe you underestimate him in several respects. He was out of their league, and he's way outside the parameters of behaviour some here assume.


 
and here is where you won't apply occasms shiny edge

not even OB have signed this one off. The very people who would yearn for a conclusion to the case if only fot the stats


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## London_Calling (May 23, 2012)

Having Plod investigate how Gareth Williams died is like asking me to critique Fischer vs Spassky.


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## trevhagl (May 23, 2012)

fogbat said:


> Christ, you're a fucking moron.
> 
> Go off on one about Diana again, won't you?


 

suck your royal cock boy


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## butchersapron (May 23, 2012)

Who is the royal cock boy trev? Is it an actual royal or someone _used_ by the royals as a cock boy?


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## elbows (May 23, 2012)




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