# Speaker of Welsh Assembly calls on AMs to boycott visit of Israeli Ambassador



## Udo Erasmus (Jun 11, 2008)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/7447750.stm

Anyone known time/date for visit?


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## llantwit (Jun 11, 2008)

Fair play.
An uncharacteristic bout of principled behaviour from Dafydd L.
Leighton Andrews balances things out with a nice bit of arse licking for the representative of the most dangerous rogue state in the world:


> Rhondda AM Leighton Andrews told Mr Asghar that the presiding officer's e-mail was "insulting to the people of Israel, and demeaning to the national assembly."
> Mr Andrews accused Lord Elis Thomas of "juvenile gesture politics".


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## KeyboardJockey (Jun 11, 2008)

wheres the counter demonstration?


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## llantwit (Jun 11, 2008)

KeyboardJockey said:


> wheres the counter demonstration?


Yeah, 





BAN ALL COUNTERS!!!1!
COUTER DEMONSTRATION? COUNT ME IN!!!
MEET: SENEDD...
etc, etc.


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## KeyboardJockey (Jun 11, 2008)

llantwit said:


> Yeah,
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Nice one!!!

BTW I've met Mr Prossor and he seems OK to me.


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## Karac (Jun 11, 2008)

llantwit said:


> Fair play.
> An uncharacteristic bout of principled behaviour from Dafydd L.


Very odd-and a bit strange that Mohammed Ashgar
(a member of the same political party as Dafydd ET) invites this guy and then Dafydd ET calls for a boycott:confused
Though reading the article Ashgars reasons for doing so sound laudable


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## llantwit (Jun 11, 2008)

Karac said:


> Very odd-and a bit strange that Mohammed Ashgar
> (a member of the same political party as Dafydd ET) invites this guy and then Dafydd ET calls for a boycott:confused
> Though reading the article Ashgar's reasons for doing so sound laudable


Yeah, I guess his reasons could be seen as laudable. A bit naive, too, maybe.
But so do DET's. And though he's been criticised for being naive, I think a principled stand like this is to be applauded. There's already plenty of greasy pole "pragmatism" from the likes of Leighton Andrews to go around.
Personally, whether the ambassador's a nice guy or not, I think that any representative of the Israeli state should be hounded out of the Senedd and told to come back when the wall's torn down and appartheid has ended in his country.


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## Udo Erasmus (Jun 12, 2008)

Maybe in the 80s, Asghar would be inviting representatives of Apartheid South Africa because he had only heard the black side of the story?

If Mr Asghar wanted to hear an Israeli perspective he could have come to hear direct action activist Jeff Halper from Israeli Committee against House Demolitions who visited Wales recently who gives a very cogent summary of Israel's discriminatory policies towards its Arab citizens. He could meet one of the hundreds of Israeli Jewish citizens who have refused to serve in the army and been imprisoned.

The politicians and media who couch this in terms of  dialogue and hearing both sides would be singing a different tune if a representative of the Chinese government, Burmese Junta or Mugabe was visiting the Senedd.

What is interesting is how Rodney Berman claims that DETs remarks on a state that is institutionally racist, are an insult to Wales' entire Jewish Community.

To re-cap Israel is a state where Arab citizens who make up one fifth of its population are denied the right to live on 92% of the land which is set aside for Jews. Now if Britain stated that Black and Asian British citizens could only live on 8% of British soil because we defined ourself as a White State, it would be regarded as profoundly. . . racist!

It is actually illegal in Israel for a political party to advocate full equality for all Israel's citizens because this would undermine Israel's raison d'etre as a Jweish state. Arab and socialist political parties can and have been prosecuted for this. (Arab citizens of Israel only won the right to form their own political parties after the bloody massacre of the militant Land Day demonstrations in the late 70s).

Thousands of Israel's indigenous Palestinian people expelled from their homes in 1948 are still denied the right to return in violation of the norms of international law.


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## llantwit (Jun 12, 2008)

Fair comments, all.



Udo Erasmus said:


> Maybe in the 80s, Asghar would be inviting representatives of Apartheid South Africa because he had only heard the black side of the story?
> 
> If Mr Asghar wanted to hear an Israeli perspective he could have come to hear direct action activist Jeff Halper from Israeli Committee against House Demolitions who visited Wales recently who gives a very cogent summary of Israel's discriminatory policies towards its Arab citizens. He could meet one of the hundreds of Israeli Jewish citizens who have refused to serve in the army and been imprisoned.
> 
> ...


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## KeyboardJockey (Jun 12, 2008)

I'm on the side of Mr Ashgar in all this.  Those of us who want a peaceful and just settlement that makes Israel secure and less paranoid and financially compensates Palestinians for the mistakes made at the Nakba (although lets not forget that Middle Eastern Jews had their own Nakba when then were removed forcibily from neighbouring Arab countries) and the re creation of the state of Israel.  

He is to be applauded for thinking for himself and picking up the olive branch rather than then empty slogan.


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## llantwit (Jun 12, 2008)

Then you're in broad agreement with Coun Rodney Berman, leader of Cardiff's council too, then KBJ.



> Mr Berman, who is Jewish, said: “If AMs have concerns, as I do myself, about polices followed by the Israeli government, then surely it’s better to use this event to talk about those concerns rather than to put up barriers, which can only promote further misunderstanding.
> 
> “I believe that given his position as Presiding Officer, Lord Elis-Thomas needs to understand the impact of his comments on people across Wales – including members of its Jewish community.
> 
> “Many members of that community will be quite shocked by the strident tone he has adopted and his complete unwillingness to even attend this meeting to express his legitimate point of view. The fact that it is a Muslim AM who has organised this meeting surely demonstrates that the intention of it is for people with differing views to have a dialogue.



I disagree, myself, but can see where you're coming from. I think that for there to be talks with representatives of the Isreali state they should first act like they really want to come to a fair resolution of the conflict. They don't at the moment, clearly.

I fail to understand Berman's reasoning, though. "Further misunderstanding"? I don't think the boycott calls are based on misunderstanding - more like a crystal clear understanding of what Israel is doing. And as for this being some sort of slight on British Jews. I just don't get that. Seems to be mixing up disagreement with Israeli policy and expansionist zionism with disagreement with Jews in general, which is just bizarre.

I do think it's a bit rich to talk about 'empty slogans', though. Very easy to think a slogan is empty of significance when you're sitting behind a keyboard in the UK innit?


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## Gavin Bl (Jun 12, 2008)

Rightly or wrongly, many jews see the particular focus on the crimes of Israel as suspicious, compared to those say of China, Zimbabwe, Sudan or wherever, where lefties seem to be distinctly less upset about far larger numbers of dead.


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## Udo Erasmus (Jun 12, 2008)

Gavin Bl said:


> Rightly or wrongly, many jews see the particular focus on the crimes of Israel as suspicious, compared to those say of China, Zimbabwe, Sudan or wherever, where lefties seem to be distinctly less upset about far larger numbers of dead.



Do they? The majority of Jewish people in Britain have traditionally supported Israel, but things are changing. This argument is rather the last stand of Zionism, they used to deny the reality of Israel's oppression, now they say, 'why do you pick on Israel, there are other country's that are bad'.

This argument is bogus. A worldwide movement opposed apartheid in South Africa, including huge numbers of people on the African continent, yet Apartheid was not the most brutal conflict on the continent.

There's another difference though. More people died in the recent war in the Congo than in Iraq - but our government doesn't have thousands of troops in the Congo.

Turning to Israel/Palestine it is clear that Britain has a much directer link with the conflict, historically and currently which isn't the case in the crimes of China or Sudan. This means the people of Britain have a heavier moral and political duty to fight for Palestinian rights.

The first intifada was actually in 1936 against the British occupation and required quarter of the British army to put it down. Britain started the whole conflict with the Balfour Declaration where one people gave the land of another people to a third people. The West as a whole played a key role in setting up what Churchill referred to as "our little ulster in a sea of Arabs" - ie an armed post of imperialism in the Middle East that has led to what was sold as a safe haven for Jews becoming the least safe place for Jews in the planet relying on systematic repression of the indigenous Palestinian population and an unprecedented militarisation of society.

To date, Britain heavilly arms Israel, is involved with the EU in a blockade against the Palestinians to destabilise the legitimately elected government, and in 2006 joined the United States in sabotaging a ceasefire that would have meant that 1000 Lebanese people might still be alive today.  

Given that hundreds of thousands of people opposed the war in Iraq in Britain it's no surprise that many people have begun to take an interest in the question of Palestine, as any analysis of the grand strategy of American Empire would reveal how Israel has played a key role as America's most reliable ally in the region.

However, socialists broaden the analysis into a critique of the Arab regimes that similarly rely on imperialist patronage and argue that the emancipation of the Palestinians and dismantling of the Zionist discriminatory structures is tied to the breaking of the regimes. There are some shoots of hope when we see the key economy in the region, Egypt, becoming increasingly unstable with huge workers strikes for an increase in the minimum wages and food riots.


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## Gavin Bl (Jun 13, 2008)

Like I say, 'rightly or wrongly' - I was only offering an explanation to llantwit's query, not a justification one way or the other. We have both stated that the majority of British Jews apparently support Israel, even if that has shifted somewhat recently. 

I think there is a grain of truth in the argument, but I'm certainly no supporter of Israel's actions in the Gaza or the West Bank, or the discriminatory structures of its society.


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## KeyboardJockey (Jun 13, 2008)

Gavin Bl said:


> Rightly or wrongly, many jews see the particular focus on the crimes of Israel as suspicious, compared to those say of China, Zimbabwe, Sudan or wherever, where lefties seem to be distinctly less upset about far larger numbers of dead.



Spot on.  Also I think you can be like me a supporter of Israel as a Jewish state but criticise and deplore the actions of Israel in the West Bank and Gaza.


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## Udo Erasmus (Jun 13, 2008)

Interestingly, Jeff Halper of the Israeli Committee against House Demolitions has moved towards seeing a one-state solution as the future, but also raised the idea of the next intifada being an intifada without borders, arguing that a solution of the Palestinian question should raise the issue of the democracy movement on the East Bank, Jordan, a state where almost half of the population are Palestinian, but according to Palestinian/Jordanian friends of mine, where any assertion of Palestinian identity is repressed. Or maybe the phrase should be _re-raise _the issue of Jordan, as the historic defeat for the Palestinian revolution (when it was a revolution) was in Black September in Jordan in 1970 when the King of Jordan massacred thousands of Palestinians (The fronts had advocated toppling the monarchy, but Arafat's nationalism meant that he backed off). There is an amazing novel by Jean Genet called _The Prisoner of Love_ that documents those revolutionary days.



KeyboardJockey said:


> Spot on.  Also I think you can be like me a supporter of Israel as a Jewish state but criticise and deplore the actions of Israel in the West Bank and Gaza.



To support Israel as a "Jewish state" is to oppose human rights and democracy. As more than 20% of the population of Israel is not Jewish and the state is founded on the ethnic cleansing/exclusion of it's indigenous population and making those that remained second class citizens. The argument of the Civil Rights movement in Israel is that it should cease to be a "Jewish State" and become a state of ALL its citizens. The movement can be compared to the Civil Rights movement in the North of Ireland and had it's own bloody sundays in the Land Day demonstrations of 1974 and in 2000 when 12 demonstrators were gunned down.

A very interesting document was produced by Palestinians who live within Israelis borders: http://www.adalah.org/newsletter/eng/dec06/tasawor-mostaqbali.pdf

Another interesting form of discrimination is that Palestinians in Israel are refused the right to serve in the army (military service is compulsory in Israel for Jewish and Druze citizens), this isn't much of a problem, except most jobs particularly high paid jobs in Israel are allocated to those who have done militaary service.

House demolitions take place on a regular basis within Israel (not just on the occupied territories). Palestinians living in Israel are regularly denied planning permission for schools, hospitals and housing. Because these are required, they build them anyway, only to see them demolished.

There is also the State backed process of trying to minimise the Palestinian population by denying the right of a Palestinian who lives on the Occupied territories and marries someone from Israel moving to Israel. Arab "citizens" of Israel are repeated told in many different ways that this is not their state.

Galilee is an area of Israel where much of the Arab population is concentrated. There has been a State-backed process called the "judaisisation of Gallilee" where the State has supported huge numbers of Jews moving into the area to dillute the Arab population. They even built a settlement above the biblical city of Nazareth called "Upper" Nazareth and make sure that all government spending and resources tends to be allocated to "Upper" Nazareth rather than the historic city.


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## KeyboardJockey (Jun 13, 2008)

Udo Erasmus said:


> To support Israel as a "Jewish state" is to oppose human rights and democracy. .



I dont' think the two positions are mutually exclusive.  You can have a Jewish state that treats minorities well in the same way as a Christian state or a Muslim state can do the same.  I don't think that having a majority culture and religion in a states make up isn't necesissarily discriminatory.  I think until antisemitism is buried for ever then there will always be a need for the Jewish people to have a state of their own if only as a place to flee to.

Anyway the Jewish people only have one state whereas the Christians and Muslims have loads.  

I don't deny that there is discrimination that goes on but I'm doubtful that this overt discrimination would be so common without the cancer of poliitcial Islam and its inherent Jew hatred that it has within it surrounding the state of Israel.

We should be welcoming those who wish to beat swords into ploughshares rather than organising boycotts and demos against them.


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## Swan (Jun 13, 2008)

KeyboardJockey said:


> I dont' think the two positions are mutually exclusive.  You can have a Jewish state that treats minorities well in the same way as a Christian state or a Muslim state can do the same.  I don't think that having a majority culture and religion in a states make up isn't necesissarily discriminatory.  I think until antisemitism is buried for ever then there will always be a need for the Jewish people to have a state of their own if only as a place to flee to.
> 
> Anyway the Jewish people only have one state whereas the Christians and Muslims have loads.
> 
> ...



Exactly.Jaw jaw is always better than war war.


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## Udo Erasmus (Jun 13, 2008)

KeyboardJockey said:


> We should be welcoming those who wish to beat swords into ploughshares rather than organising boycotts and demos against them.



So Ron Prosser has done a 180 degree u-turn and abandoned his support for the war on Lebanon, the expansion of illegal settlements on the occupied territories, and is calling for an end to the occupation of the West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusulem & a just solution to the refugee issue? No, he is a defender of human rights abuses and oppression and the aim of his visit will be to build business links with Wales and Israel, and muddy the waters over the reality of Israel's policy towards the Palestinians, like George W Bush he may talk of peace but in the orwellian sense of peace meaning war:

"Israel is a democracy under fire, but when this context is neglected, it clears a path for the unhealthy, unacceptable demonisation of Israel. While Israel faces many challenges, it is still the only functioning democracy in the region, and the only state in the area that offers minorities full civil equality and freedom of speech."



> I dont' think the two positions are mutually exclusive.  You can have a Jewish state that treats minorities well in the same way as a Christian state or a Muslim state can do the same.  I don't think that having a majority culture and religion in a states make up isn't necesissarily discriminatory.  I think until antisemitism is buried for ever then there will always be a need for the Jewish people to have a state of their own if only as a place to flee to.



So Palestinians must suffer forever? The overwhelming majority of Jews choose not to live in Israel, and Israel's Jewish population is in decline with people emigrating. There are actually more Jews living in America than Israel. 



> Anyway the Jewish people only have one state whereas the Christians and Muslims have loads.



So you would favour say a few million people being driven out of Britain on the basis that there are lots of European countries? Or do you only single out Palestinians for this treatment?


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## KeyboardJockey (Jun 13, 2008)

Swan said:


> Exactly.Jaw jaw is always better than war war.



Agreed.  It is agreed that that there were injustices at the creation of the state and in the aftermath of the wars in the 60's and 70's but the way to reduce this tension and get people sitting down together is to encourage the peacemakers.

Sadly the actions of some of the more extremist pro Palestinian groups in the UK and some on the left who big up organisations like Hamas and Hezbollah are just as bad as the worst political Zionist extremists in terms of bigotry and are both making a bad situation worse.


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## Udo Erasmus (Jun 13, 2008)

"Israeli PR efforts in Britain have kicked up a notch since Prosor became ambassador two months ago. As a former Foreign Ministry director general, he is focusing on speeches to new kinds of audiences, frequent television appearances and press interviews." - Haaretz

“I’m not afraid to appear anywhere, and there is no platform - suitable of course - that I will not utilize for PR work,” Prosor says.




Swan said:


> Exactly.Jaw jaw is always better than war war.



This isn't a meeting between Palestinians and Israelis, but actually an attempt to further the aims of the Israeli state in waging war on the Palestinians and build business links between Israel and Wales. Hence Prosor is also meeting business leaders & the First Minister of Wales, it is a PR offensive for war and shame on Asghar for his behaviour. Given the growing public concern in Britain over Israel's policies towards the Palestinians and war on the Lebanon, they have an ambassador whose aim is to undermine solidarity and lie to the British people.

The aim of the Israeli Ambassador is not to promote peace and justice but rather a propaganda offensive to justify Israel's discriminatory policies. He makes no secret that he is a PR man for the Israeli state.

Good articles on the Israeli Ambassador here:
http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article9587.shtml
http://israels60thbirthday.com/2008/03/19/uk-pr-offensive-israeli-ambassador-targets-british-media/

Intriguingly the Ambassador is meeting trade unions in Cardiff, this is part of the offensive against the boycott.

Asghar's comments are pretty astonishing:



> Mr Asghar said: ``It is his (Lord Elis-Thomas's) prerogative and I have not seen him since I got his email.''
> 
> He invited the ambassador because having spent ``all my life'' listening to one side of the argument, it was time to hear an Israeli perspective on the conflict in the Middle East.
> 
> ...


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## niclas (Jun 13, 2008)

KeyboardJockey said:


> I think until antisemitism is buried for ever then there will always be a need for the Jewish people to have a state of their own if only as a place to flee to.
> 
> Anyway the Jewish people only have one state whereas the Christians and Muslims have loads.
> 
> ...



Political Islam as a phenomenon didn't exist when the UK went back on its promise to provide a Palestinian State back in 1917. It didn't exist when terrorists such as Menachem Begin (later a right-wing Prime Minister of Israel)and the Stern Gang forced the British out of Palestine after the Second World War.
 Political Islam has emerged as a phenomenon only because reformist Palestinian politics (e.g. Fatah) was judged to have failed.
 Therefore to claim that the Israeli state's discrimination against the Palestinian people as a whole is down to the rise of Political Islam is spurious. The Israeli state's raison d'etre is based on treating Palestinians as second-class citizens (or non-citizens).
 There are many parallels with South Africa, especially the creation of nominally independent "Bantustans" - that's exactly what the nominally independent West Bank and Gaza Strip are. 

 It's a bitter irony that a people, the Jews, that were mercilessly persecuted because of their religion and ethnicity by the Nazis should choose to unleash the very same persecution and ethnic cleansing against another people.

 The Israeli ambassador is not beating swords into ploughshares - he's busy building nuclear weapons and unleashing cluster bombs on civilians.

PS Most Jews live quite happily outside the state of Israel, many are ashamed of "their" state. It's hardly a bolthole for them.


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## Udo Erasmus (Jun 13, 2008)

One thing that concerns me has been a media blitz against DET to depict him as some kind of loon or loose cannon when actually he has put foward a perfectly cogent and reasonable point of view.


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## Gavin Bl (Jun 13, 2008)

niclas said:


> It's a bitter irony that a people, the Jews, that were mercilessly persecuted because of their religion and ethnicity by the Nazis should choose to unleash the very same persecution and ethnic cleansing against another people.



Again - I'm opposed to the actions of the Israeli government against the Palestinians, and agree with most of the points made, but real care should be used with phrases like this - 



> very same persecution and ethnic cleansing against another people



because while it has overtomes of fascism, its not 'the very same' - and saying it is damages the very legitimate arguments against Israeli actions.


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## Gavin Bl (Jun 13, 2008)

.


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## niclas (Jun 13, 2008)

Gavin Bl said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by niclas
> It's a bitter irony that a people, the Jews, that were mercilessly persecuted because of their religion and ethnicity by the Nazis should choose to unleash the very same persecution and ethnic cleansing against another people.
> 
> ...



I take your point - the scale is different, but the persecution of a people on the grounds of their ethnicity is the same. The point I was trying to make - badly as it turned out - was that this would be bad enough anywhere but to have a people that had suffered so much committing such acts somehow makes it all the worse.


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## Gavin Bl (Jun 14, 2008)

niclas said:


> I take your point - the scale is different, but the persecution of a people on the grounds of their ethnicity is the same. The point I was trying to make - badly as it turned out - was that this would be bad enough anywhere but to have a people that had suffered so much committing such acts somehow makes it all the worse.



Yeah, but I agree with your general point niclas, 'the victims of the victims' thing (Edward Said was it?). 

Wonder what would happen if the Israelis turned round and said, OK full equality and citizenship for anyone who wants it - but if you pick up a gun against Israel after that, then you go to jail forever. A single secular state would be the ideal, but a two state solution is probably the most realistic, with hopefully some sort of rapproachment (a la the two Cypruses) a generation or two down the road. But even that is barely on the table.


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## lewislewis (Jun 14, 2008)

I applaud DET's stance on this.


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## Udo Erasmus (Jun 15, 2008)

For me, Edward Said was a kind of guide, having been a soft-supporter of Israel and Zionism, he helped me really understand what the conflict was all about. I used to regularly read his weekly articles on the english speaking website of Al-Ahram for nourishment. It was a great tragedy for the Palestinian movement when he died.

As well as a moral voice, he was one of the great anti-colonial intellectuals alongside Fanon, Walter Rodney and others.


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## Udo Erasmus (Jun 17, 2008)

I notice that DETs party is rallying around his strong statement in support of democracy and human rights and taking it up  - or rather I don't! C'mon Lewislewis and Niclas get the ball rolling. So far the public statements in support of DET have been . . . zero from anyone. Though I can confirm that Neil McEvoy, will be supporting the protest against the ambassadors visit.

Bethan Jenkins AM has declared she won't be boycotting the Ambassador taking a rather odd view that boycotting the monarchy is more worthwhile than boycotting the representative of a government that is waging war on a whole people, while the Labour AMs and LibDems like Berman are batting for the pro-Israel side.


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## niclas (Jun 17, 2008)

Udo missed this



lewislewis said:


> I applaud DET's stance on this.



and this




			
				niclas said:
			
		

> The Israeli ambassador is not beating swords into ploughshares - he's busy building nuclear weapons and unleashing cluster bombs on civilians.


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## Udo Erasmus (Jun 17, 2008)

I wasn't questioning either of your commitments to the cause, I meant getting your leaders to make some public statements, lots of AMs and politicians from other parties attacking DET, but no voices in the media from his own party applauding his stance and declaring that they would be boycotting the Ambassadors visit. 

This would have been a perfect opportunity for Plaid to have used the attacks on DET to have started a debate on Israel's policies in the Welsh media, but instead DET is isolated. Let's see more politicians coming out in support of DETs stance.


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## lewislewis (Jun 17, 2008)

Udo Erasmus said:


> I notice that DETs party is rallying around his strong statement in support of democracy and human rights and taking it up  - or rather I don't! C'mon Lewislewis and Niclas get the ball rolling. So far the public statements in support of DET have been . . . zero from anyone. Though I can confirm that Neil McEvoy, will be supporting the protest against the ambassadors visit.
> 
> Bethan Jenkins AM has declared she won't be boycotting the Ambassador taking a rather odd view that boycotting the monarchy is more worthwhile than boycotting the representative of a government that is waging war on a whole people, while the Labour AMs and LibDems like Berman are batting for the pro-Israel side.



The best thing to do is to support the demonstration. I am sure i'll be there. AMs can decide to attend the meeting or attend the demonstration instead, it is up to them.


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## lewislewis (Jun 17, 2008)

Udo Erasmus said:


> I wasn't questioning either of your commitments to the cause, I meant getting your leaders to make some public statements, lots of AMs and politicians from other parties attacking DET, but no voices in the media from his own party applauding his stance and declaring that they would be boycotting the Ambassadors visit.
> 
> This would have been a perfect opportunity for Plaid to have used the attacks on DET to have started a debate on Israel's policies in the Welsh media, but instead DET is isolated. Let's see more politicians coming out in support of DETs stance.



I do not accept that he is isolated. There is no major attack on DET, he can handle himself but i'm sure he will be encouraged by those Plaid AMs that are going to be at the demonstration. He isn't someone who seems to care what others think. 

It's hardly equal to the bile directed at Jill Evans when she spoke out against St. Athan.


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## Udo Erasmus (Jun 17, 2008)

lewislewis said:


> I do not accept that he is isolated. There is no major attack on DET, he can handle himself but i'm sure he will be encouraged by those Plaid AMs that are going to be at the demonstration. He isn't someone who seems to care what others think.
> 
> It's hardly equal to the bile directed at Jill Evans when she spoke out against St. Athan.



That's true to some extent.
Is DET not very popular in his party?
If several AMs do attend the protest and it is covered in the media it could be a good thing.


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## Udo Erasmus (Jun 17, 2008)

Out of interest has the Palestinian ambassador ever been invited to Cardiff Bay? Either Afif Safieh or Professor Manuel Hassassian, current Palestinian Delegate General to the UK

If not, it sets the visit in a very unpleasant context.


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## lewislewis (Jun 17, 2008)

Udo Erasmus said:


> That's true to some extent.
> Is DET not very popular in his party?
> If several AMs do attend the protest and it is covered in the media it could be a good thing.



He is indeed popular and is elected as a Plaid AM and is a member of the party, but my impression is that he is an independent Welsh figure and does his own thing.


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## Udo Erasmus (Jun 18, 2008)

> During his 24-hour visit to Cardiff, the ambassador will meet the First Minister, party leaders, Cardiff City Council, the Wales TUC, representatives of Cardiff University and International Business Wales



It would be good if trade unionists could contact Wales TUC: wtuc@tuc.org.uk to ask them why organised labour that has always stood for internationalism is meeting with a representative of an oppressive state?

I wonder if the leaders of the Wales TUC will be asking Ron Prosor about the headquarters of the Palestinian equivalent to the British TUC being reduced to rubble and completely demolished by Israeli F16s only two months ago.


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## llantwit (Jun 18, 2008)

The Ambassador's reception...


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## Udo Erasmus (Jun 19, 2008)

Nice.

Rodney Berman once again repeating his crap that all Jewish people in Wales are in support of Israel,

http://www.totallyjewish.com/news/special_reports/?content_id=9403

"Clearly his view that the meeting should be boycotted is not one that would be understood by the Jewish community in Wales"

Actually, there are many Jewish people who oppose the policies of Israel and don't see it as representing them in anyway, just as their are many non-Jewish people who take the same line on Israel as Mr Berman.

I wonder how as a member of Cardiff's Jewish community, Berman can justify meeting the representative of a government where a senior minister threatened the people of Gaza with a _Shoah_ ?(the word in hebrew used exclusively to designate the Nazi holocaust where 4 - 6 million Jews were industrially slaughtered)

"Speaking on Israel Army Radio, Mr Vilnai said if Palestinians increased rocket fire, they will bring upon themselves what he called a "shoah" - a Hebrew word for catastrophe, and for the Nazi Holocaust. The BBC's Katya Adler in Jerusalem says many of Mr Vilnai's colleagues have quickly distanced themselves from his comments and also tried to downplay them saying he did not mean genocide.”

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7270650.stm


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## lewislewis (Jun 19, 2008)

When will the demonstration against this be publicised?


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## llantwit (Jun 19, 2008)

lewislewis said:


> When will the demonstration against this be publicised?


You volunteering for some fly-posting?


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## llantwit (Jun 19, 2008)

... or setting up a facebook campaign?


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## Udo Erasmus (Jun 19, 2008)

It has been advertised around the usual activist networks, but the Palestine Solidarity Campaign in Cardiff has organised it, I assume that they will be sending press releases etc. out.

Personally, I think it would be effective to write to every AM.


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## Udo Erasmus (Jun 20, 2008)

Strange, I posted up an ad for the demo on indymedia and they changed without asking:

"Far from being about peace or dialogue, the ambassador, Ron Prosor has made clear his aim is to be a PR man for the state of Israel to undermine the efforts to build a just solution by muddying the waters on what the real situation in the Middle East is."

to, 

"The ambassador, Ron Prosor, has made clear the aims of his visit are far from being about peace or dialogue. The state of Israel has a history of PR men actively undermining the efforts to build a just solution by muddying the waters on what the real situation in the Middle East is.

I understand that the second half of original paragraph is interpretation and they may have been concerned about libel, Prosor would claim to support peace and just solutions just like George Bush. But their amended para doesn't improve things if that is their concern, and I think it is a bit off to change the wording of something that someone has written without informing them or posting a note: as the para I didn't write has my name against it!


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## Gavin Bl (Jun 20, 2008)

I think they are covering themselves from any complaint by Prosor, by displacing the 'PR man' bit onto the state of Israel. TBH, you were pushing your luck with 



> Ron Prosor has made clear his aim is to be a PR man for the state of Israel to undermine the efforts to build a just solution by muddying the waters on what the real situation in the Middle East is."


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## Udo Erasmus (Jun 20, 2008)

It wasn't Indymedia who changed the wording but rather a national organisation to whom I had sent the "call-out", doesn't bother me that site changed it as it doesn't have my name as an author. I just copied and pasted from that site onto the Indymedia without noticing the alteration.

The phrase, "PR man" is one used by Prosor himself, he has spoken of the need to get down into British society and speak to as many different organisations and sections of society as possible to build support for Israel, for example, he recently met with Alex Fergusson and professional footballers, he visits schools and universities, meets with trade unions etc.

while he would deny the rest, it obviously is subjective and hinges upon what do you consider a "just solution" to be? Prosor's vision of a just solution is not consistent with international law, or the view of the United Nations as articulated through resolutions, for example. More importantly Prosor's vision of a just solution is not just nor will it bring peace.

In interviews he makes kitsch references to "peace", "moderates" etc. But he is very clear that he regards Israel as being the victim, and that Palestinians have declared war on Israel, and also states that Israel basically has the right to do whatsoever it likes to defend it's citizens, but as Professor Noam Chomsky said "someone who is occupying someone elses land cannot claim to be acting in self-defence"

Prosor's aim is to muddy the waters on Israel's human rights abuses and deflect attention away from them, he also wants to promote a narrative in which Israel is the victim of agression rather than the perpetrator.


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## llantwit (Jun 20, 2008)

Ta for the clarification - Indymedia don't make changes to peoples' posts. Part of the editorial policy they've got.
Which site changed the post, Udo? I can see why they might want to, like, but I doubt Prosor's on the prowl for possible libel fights with activists.


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## Udo Erasmus (Jun 20, 2008)

llantwit said:


> Ta for the clarification - Indymedia don't make changes to peoples' posts. Part of the editorial policy they've got.
> Which site changed the post, Udo? I can see why they might want to, like, but I doubt Prosor's on the prowl for possible libel fights with activists.



http://www.respectcoalition.org/?did=1347


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## Gavin Bl (Jun 20, 2008)

Udo Erasmus said:


> It wasn't Indymedia who changed the wording but rather a national organisation to whom I had sent the "call-out", doesn't bother me that site changed it as it doesn't have my name as an author. I just copied and pasted from that site onto the Indymedia without noticing the alteration.
> 
> The phrase, "PR man" is one used by Prosor himself, he has spoken of the need to get down into British society and speak to as many different organisations and sections of society as possible to build support for Israel, for example, he recently met with Alex Fergusson and professional footballers, he visits schools and universities, meets with trade unions etc.
> 
> ...



Why are you telling me like I can do anything about it? You got your announcement. Let it go, mun, like a dog with a bone.


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## Udo Erasmus (Jun 20, 2008)

You implied I was pushing it, I was just explaining that I felt my phrasing was well chosen and justified.


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## Gavin Bl (Jun 20, 2008)

yeah I did, just spare us the lecture every single time, eh?


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## Udo Erasmus (Jun 20, 2008)

Gavin Bl said:


> yeah I did, just spare us the lecture every single time, eh?



Well, don't imply that I make rash statements then. What I said was entirely appropriate and concise snapshot of Ron Prosor.


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## lewislewis (Jun 20, 2008)

llantwit said:


> ... or setting up a facebook campaign?



I actually don't have a facebook, believe it or not. Even Dave Cameron does, apparently.


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## Gavin Bl (Jun 20, 2008)

Udo Erasmus said:


> Well, don't imply that I make rash statements then.



that's too funny.


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## lewislewis (Jun 20, 2008)

Can somebody tell me where the 'Welsh Assmebly' is, vis the Respect-Left List website?


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## llantwit (Jun 20, 2008)

lewislewis said:


> I actually don't have a facebook


me either


lewislewis said:


> believe it or not. Even Dave Cameron does, apparently.


good enough reason not to have one, then.


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## llantwit (Jun 23, 2008)

lewislewis said:


> I actually don't have a facebook, believe it or not. Even Dave Cameron does, apparently.


Hey, Lewis, looks like someone with a bit more web nous than us did the job:


> Event: Ambush the Ambassador
> "Demo on to Israeli war crimes"
> What: Protest
> Host: Gagged! readers group
> ...


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## Udo Erasmus (Jun 23, 2008)

lewislewis said:


> Can somebody tell me where the 'Welsh Assmebly' is, vis the Respect-Left List website?



Do nationalists never make typo's?


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## lewislewis (Jun 23, 2008)

Udo Erasmus said:


> Do nationalists never make typo's?



Nevre ever. But in case we do- we proof read our website before clicking the 'save' button. ; )


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## teqniq (Jun 23, 2008)

Udo Erasmus said:
			
		

> Do nationalists never make typo's?





lewislewis said:


> Nevre ever. But in case we do- we proof read our website before clicking the 'save' button.



Made me chuckle.


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## lewislewis (Jun 24, 2008)

The Daily Mail says:

"The speaker of the Welsh Assembly was under pressure to resign yesterday after he called for a boycott of the Israeli ambassador. "
This isn't true!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/wor...alling-boycott-Israeli-ambassadors-visit.html


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## llantwit (Jun 24, 2008)

lewislewis said:


> The Daily Mail says:
> [...]
> This isn't true!
> 
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/wor...alling-boycott-Israeli-ambassadors-visit.html



You seem genuinely surprised?!


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## Udo Erasmus (Jun 24, 2008)

Rodney Berman has his own article on the ambassador:
http://www.totallyjewish.com/news/special_reports/?content_id=9403

Interestingly, Berman has never seen fit to make any comment on the Middle East viz Israel's war on the Lebanon, Iraq or the oppression of the Palestinians, but as soon as the representative of the State of Israel is snubbed he is sending out press releases left, right and centre.

I'm a little disappointed that the organisers of the demo later today don't seem to have run as an effective press operation over the visit compared to the other side. There are politicians such as Dafydd Elis Thomas, Cllr Neil McEvoy, Cllr Ray Davies and Leanne Wood AM who are oppoosed to the visit (and they are surely not the only ones), I'm sure with better co-ordination several other MPs and politicians could have been arm twisted into making a public statement of opposition. There are many Welsh politicians who support Palestinian rights. 

Judging from the amount of politicians who seem to be soft on Israeli oppression it suggests much work needs to be done in Wales to make sure that in the future they are less confident to ignore Palestinian rights, we see Labour politicians such as Leighton Andrews AM and Chris Bryant MP rushing to declare their support for Israel, Plaid AMs like Mohammed Asghar inviting the ambassador, Bethan Jenkins AM considering opposing the visit of Prince Charlie more important to oppose than the rep. of Israel and stating that she won't boycott it, Rodney Berman from the LibDems paying his respects to Israel etc.

Another area that needs work is organising within the trade union movement in Wales to raise the issue of Palestinian solidarity given the decision by the Wales TUC to invite the ambassador to speak only 2 months after the Palestinian equivalent of the British TUC HQ was completely wiped off the face of the earth by Israeli F16s.


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## lewislewis (Jun 24, 2008)

Of course more needs to be done and eyes were perhaps taken off the ball. Is the local STWC involved? Any unions? Have any of the local mosques been informed (or churches sympathetic to the anti-war movement)? Bit late now obviously.


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## Gavin Bl (Jun 24, 2008)

Udo Erasmus said:


> Do nationalists never make typo's?



Only in English.


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## niclas (Jun 24, 2008)

Any news on the arrests? Saw a clip on telly but nothing about why or who.


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## Udo Erasmus (Jun 25, 2008)

I'm not sure what happened exactly, some people saw the Ambassadors car driving around the back, and ran around to the side entrance of the Assembly. When I got round there I saw two people being pushed to the ground by police, who I believe were anarchists. I wandered into the Assembly behind some dignitaries, but was quickly ejected!There was some rather smug policeman who kept on shoving a camera right in people's faces and snapping them. 

Leanne Wood AM, Helen Mary Jones AM, Bethan Jenkins AM, Nerys EvansAM, Neil McEvoy (Plaid) attended the protest, along with John Griffiths AM (Labour). There may have been more politicians, but I didn't recognise them! Peter Black AM (LibDems) attended the meeting with the Ambassador but also popped out to speak to demonstrators to declare his support for Palestinian rights. Obviously some politicians who may have supported Palestinian rights would have attended the meeting with the Ambassador believing it was more appropriate to try and raise concerns with him and debate with other AMs attending the meeting.

I think the vist maps out some key areas in which supporters of Palestinian rights in Wales will need to be campaigning to make sure that next time the Ambassador slinks into town, he will meet even more opposition.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/w...at-israeli-ambassador-s-visit-91466-21145494/
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/7471247.stm


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## Dic Penderyn (Jun 25, 2008)

There were three arrests, two female, one male. all anarchists.

After the protest most people came to the central police station where the arrestees were being held. However no-one was release by half eleven when I left.

More details later.


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## llantwit (Jun 25, 2008)

They were arrested for no discernible reason I could see.
Just another in Cardiff police's recent attempts to harrass protestors, curtail freedom of expression, and put ppeople off demonstrating.


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## Udo Erasmus (Jun 25, 2008)

llantwit said:


> They were arrested for no discernible reason I could see.
> Just another in Cardiff police's recent attempts to harrass protestors, curtail freedom of expression, and put ppeople off demonstrating.



_"My puzzlement grew. This chap wasn't really the sort you'd expect to see shouting abuse at police officers at an anti-war demo. He was, after all, a policeman himself - and a high-ranking one at that."_

http://www.mailonsunday.co.uk/femai...ce-anti-war-demo-stooge-thug-asks-writer.html

Funny story from the Daily Mail about a policeman disguised as a demonstrator repeatedly provoking the police at a demonstration, this kind of shit has been going on for years, but this is one of the few times that mainstream media have reported it.




			
				George Galloway MP said:
			
		

> I can now confirm that this man was Chris Dreyfus, an inspector in the police.
> 
> This man, to my direct knowledge, committed four criminal offences during the 30 minutes or so he stood next to me. First, he repeatedly chanted the arcane, antiquated Americana, “Kill the pigs!” This is a clear incitement to violence, indeed murder. If a Muslim demonstrator had been chanting it, say, outside the Danish Embassy, he would likely now be in prison. Secondly, he repeatedly (crushing me in the process) attempted to charge the crush barriers and the police line behind them. Thirdly, he repeatedly exhorted others so to do. Fourthly, he instructed a young demonstrator on the correct way to uncouple a crush barrier, which was successfully achieved and was subsequently thrown at the police, and was presumably one of the justifications for the deployment of a riot squad which eventually waded in to the protesters.


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## lewislewis (Jun 25, 2008)

The pro-Israel counter-demonstration was measly in comparison.


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## penderyn2000 (Jun 25, 2008)

Report and video at http://cardiffpr.org.


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## Udo Erasmus (Jun 25, 2008)

llantwit said:


> They were arrested for no discernible reason I could see.
> Just another in Cardiff police's recent attempts to harrass protestors, curtail freedom of expression, and put ppeople off demonstrating.



I did feel that the politicians present could have done more to show solidarity with those arrested, but our elected representatives seem pretty wimpy at standing up for the people.


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## ddraig (Jun 25, 2008)

article/report in Western Mail with someone on this ere thread quoted


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## Dic Penderyn (Jun 25, 2008)

Some videos off youtube (not very clear): .


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## Udo Erasmus (Jun 26, 2008)

A few people have been enquiring if there is any news on the arrests? 

Just reading article: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3560592,00.html

Apparently Prosor noticed us, and said: "The protestors clearly illustrate the importance of Israeli PR in Britain. We are determined not to let those calling for a boycott of Israel to take control of the discussion and silence the dialogue between Britain and Israel." 

But the article contains a few howlers, _Lord_ Rodney Berman?!? 

"About two weeks ago, Baron Dafydd Elis-Thomas, the assembly's presiding officer, called on its members to boycott the discussion. Lord Rodney Berman, a Liberal-Democrat assembly member expressed his objection to the boycott call, but eventually only 15 out of the 60 members attended the meeting. "


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## niclas (Jun 26, 2008)

Udo Erasmus said:


> Baron Dafydd Elis-Thomas, the assembly's presiding officer, called on its members to boycott the discussion. Lord Rodney Berman, a Liberal-Democrat assembly member expressed his objection to the boycott call, but eventually only 15 out of the 60 members attended the meeting. "



Apparently "Baron" DE-T has taken to greeting his fellow AMs with "May Allah be with you"...


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## llantwit (Jun 26, 2008)

I haven't heard anything about the arrestees yet.


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## Udo Erasmus (Jun 27, 2008)

http://www.thejc.com/home.aspx?ParentId=m11&SecId=11&AId=60912&ATypeId=1

Jewish Chronicle report. Used to read JC in Cardiff Central Library on a regular basis.

Apparently Prosor explained to AMs that the expansion of illegal settlements on the West Bank and Gaza was a natural growth process. What is more of concern is Rhodri Morgan's talk of the visit as beign part of a process of building up links between Wales and Israel.


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