# Goodbye bendy buses



## Mr Blob (Sep 11, 2011)

Well, the era of Ken Livingstone's bendy buses paving the roads of London is soon over. Only five bendy bus routes remain and three in SE London are being replaced by conventional vehicles by this December, the no.12 from Dulwich, 453 from Deptford and 436 Lewisham to Paddington- all routes I use regularly

I wouldn't miss them greatly but this  is a powerful symbol of Boris' power in City Hall as he gets together plans for a new London Routemaster

I remember the scandal of burning bendy buses that exploded and the gangs of police/revenue inspectors needed to enforce fares with some passengers


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## editor (Sep 11, 2011)

I hated the things. Good riddance.


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## 5t3IIa (Sep 11, 2011)

I went to visit a life-sized... model, I suppose you'd call it, of the new Routemaster at the Transport Museum. I am not looking forward to twisting my ankle hopping off the back *but *_they are going to have aircon._

I disapprove of aircon but that's my issue, I think.


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## Mr Blob (Sep 11, 2011)

5t3IIa said:


> I went to visit a life-sized... model, I suppose you'd call it, of the new Routemaster at the Transport Museum. I am not looking forward to twisting my ankle hopping off the back *but *_they are going to have aircon._
> 
> I disapprove of aircon but that's my issue, I think.


This is 21st century- no hopping off - too many health & Safety issues


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## Mr Blob (Sep 11, 2011)

Looks like new Routemaster comes in next year, as the last bendy buses retire this year

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZYAypse7Cvw


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## 19sixtysix (Sep 11, 2011)

5t3IIa said:


> I disapprove of aircon but that's my issue, I think.



No. I disapprove as well.

In this country you mostly just need good ventilation the single thing most buses do not have.
And not those awful noisy fan units at the back of some route (68).
We need proper opening windows including at the front.


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## Badgers (Sep 11, 2011)

They are shite, won't be missed


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## 5t3IIa (Sep 11, 2011)

19sixtysix said:


> No. I disapprove as well.
> 
> In this country you mostly just need good ventilation the single thing most buses do not have.
> And not those awful noisy fan units at the back of some route (68).
> We need proper opening windows including at the front.



The ceiling...roof... on the top deck is going to be about 5'10 as the aircon is in there and the windows are smaller, and don't open ofc.

We had an actual tourguide through the bus! And he said something about research showing that most people stoop anyway when they go upstairs, which sounded a tad spurious to me but I'm 5'4.


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## 5t3IIa (Sep 11, 2011)

Mr Blob said:


> This is 21st century- no hopping off - too many health & Safety issues



The back is going to be open at peak times.


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## Puddy_Tat (Sep 11, 2011)

I am fairly ambivalent about them.

They work on the same principle (i.e. large articulated vehicle, pay before you board, as much standing space as seats) as the Croydon trams did some years before Ken's GLA came along.  And nobody made a fuss about them.

Similarly very few people made a fuss about their use on the 'red arrow' routes in central London.

I can't help thinking that if Ken had pursued the process of re-refurbishing Routemasters, the Evening Standard would have criticised that and accused Ken of murder every time someone fell off the back of one.  Instead they got an anti-bendybus bandwagon going which appealed to their traditional reactionary audience.

Many conductors on routemasters (and those left on the 'tame routemaster' routes) had largely given up on fare collection / ticket checking, especially on the top deck, presumably on grounds of their personal safety so there were quite a few 'free rides' then.

Also, the behaviour of passengers on many central London routes, where in peak hours there's a lot of empty seats upstairs, and some at the back downstairs, which you can't get to because people insist on standing between the doorways, suggest that vehicles with lots of doors and plenty of standing room are not at all inappropriate for central London use.

I'm not convinced that every route the bendy-buses were put on to was right (although in part that could be down to local councils not doing their bit with highway works) but broadly don't see the problem with them.  Possibly an expanded 'Red Arrow' network in central London overlaid on the existing route network would have been more sensible.

The poor R&D that led to the fires (I can't remember the detail, but one of the fuel pipes between the two halves was either not flexible enough and broke, or was too flexible and broke) is not a good advert for them, but if the same logic that some people applied to bendybuses had been around 40 years earlier, then Routemasters could have been withdrawn after this incident in 1966.


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## maldwyn (Sep 11, 2011)

Glad to see the back of the 73 bendy, though more than a few people must be fucked off it now terminates at Stoke Newington common instead of seven sisters.


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## stuff_it (Sep 11, 2011)

5t3IIa said:


> I went to visit a life-sized... model, I suppose you'd call it, of the new Routemaster at the Transport Museum. I am not looking forward to twisting my ankle hopping off the back *but *_they are going to have aircon._
> 
> I disapprove of aircon but that's my issue, I think.


So it has an open platform at the back, and is going to be constantly trying to air condition the whole of London in the summer?


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## 5t3IIa (Sep 11, 2011)

stuff_it said:


> So it has an open platform at the back, and is going to be constantly trying to air condition the whole of London in the summer?



Seems so. At peak times anyway.

Icy cold blasts down everyone's neck and then one hops off into a July sauna and twists one's ankle 

They can't make them perfect, I suppose. What is perfect? What? Even my halloumi melted  to the pan today.


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## editor (Sep 11, 2011)

5t3IIa said:


> I went to visit a life-sized... model, I suppose you'd call it, of the new Routemaster at the Transport Museum. I am not looking forward to twisting my ankle hopping off the back *but *_they are going to have aircon._


Err, then just wait until the bus stops.


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## editor (Sep 11, 2011)

5t3IIa said:


> Icy cold blasts down everyone's neck and then one hops off into a July sauna and twists one's ankle


Do you twist your ankle every day "hopping off" stairs?


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## 5t3IIa (Sep 11, 2011)

editor said:


> Err, then just wait until the bus stops.



I'm going to bloody have to, innit! 

Also being stumpy of leg doesn't help, even when stationery.


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## stuff_it (Sep 11, 2011)

5t3IIa said:


> I'm going to bloody have to, innit!
> 
> Also being stumpy of leg doesn't help, even when stationery.


They will probably be fairly level with the bus stops, at least centrally - do they 'kneel'?

Blates loads of people will twist their ankles at first, as all the people that remember falling on and off the back wasted in their youths try to repeat the process and fail. I seem to remember (vaguely) a sort of superman/racing swimmer dive into the bottom floor aisle more than once.

So it will be trying to heat the whole of London all winter as well? I take it they aren't very 'eco' then... 

Not sure how you'd get round that though - hanging plastic strips? Fucking hate when you can't open the windows on busses too.


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## editor (Sep 11, 2011)

5t3IIa said:


> I'm going to bloody have to, innit!


So what were you expecting? A padded, trailing carpet to unfurl out from the moving bus for the benefit of impatient types with a curious penchant for twisting their ankles descending the smallest of steps?


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## littlebabyjesus (Sep 11, 2011)

Puddy_Tat said:


> Many conductors on routemasters (and those left on the 'tame routemaster' routes) had largely given up on fare collection / ticket checking, especially on the top deck, presumably on grounds of their personal safety so there .



Had they? I used to ride the 36 regularly. It was one of the more notorious routes. I'd get some free rides because they often changed conductor at New Cross, and if you were already on the bus you wouldn't be checked, but I don't ever remember a conductor not doing the rounds.

Anyway, in the end, I don't miss the routemasters, and I doubt many people over six foot tall do, tbh. Not designed for us. But I also won't miss the bendies. Fine for short journeys, but rotten for long ones - hardly any seats and half the seats there are face the wrong way. Shit buses, and you can't see into the cricket ground as you pass the Oval!

What is wrong with the regular double-deckers? They seem perfectly fit for their purpose to me. The new routemaster seems like a horrible waste of money.


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## editor (Sep 11, 2011)

littlebabyjesus said:


> What is wrong with the regular double-deckers? They seem perfectly fit for their purpose to me. The new routemaster seems like a horrible waste of money.


Except when the bus gets caught in a traffic jam and you have to spend ten frustrating minutes waiting for it to advance 300 metres to the next stop before you can be let off.


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## _angel_ (Sep 11, 2011)

editor said:


> So what were you expecting? A padded, trailing carpet to unfurl out from the moving bus for the benefit of impatient types with a curious penchant for twisting their ankles descending the smallest of steps?


be a nice touch tho, wouldn't it?


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## 5t3IIa (Sep 11, 2011)

editor said:


> So what were you expecting? A padded, trailing carpet to unfurl out from the moving bus for the benefit of impatient types with a curious penchant for twisting their ankles descending the smallest of steps?



If you're going to tell me off for predicting this step may be a problem _for me_ I would like to see a stat as to the height of it. It's higher than a stair, I betcha.


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## stuff_it (Sep 11, 2011)

editor said:


> So what were you expecting? A padded, trailing carpet to unfurl out from the moving bus for the benefit of impatient types with a curious penchant for twisting their ankles descending the smallest of steps?


I don't tend to twist my ankle but I would still quite like this; or possibly a small flying carpet that swishes out, collects you at the roadside, and deposits you on the platform at the back.


editor said:


> Except when the bus gets caught in a traffic jam and you have to spend ten frustrating minutes waiting for it to advance 300 metres to the next stop before you can be let off.


The simple solution to this is to allow the driver to open the doors at lower speeds, by use of a limiter of some sort connected to the door release. They could still bring back conductors.


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## _angel_ (Sep 11, 2011)

stuff_it said:


> I don't tend to twist my ankle but I would still quite like this; or possibly a small flying carpet that swishes out, collects you at the roadside, and deposits you on the platform at the back.


If we had a flying carpet, we wouldn't need buses at all -- even better!


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## 5t3IIa (Sep 11, 2011)

Ideally, I'd like to be hoiked up by my armpits by a 6'5 chap in a dinner jacket and deposited gently on the pavement, with a kiss on the forehead.


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## littlebabyjesus (Sep 11, 2011)

editor said:


> Except when the bus gets caught in a traffic jam and you have to spend ten frustrating minutes waiting for it to advance 300 metres to the next stop before you can be let off.



How often does that happen, though?

Before the oyster card there was a case for routemasters on busy routes as a long queue of people needing to pay the driver would hold the buses up very badly. The 253 was awful for that, and you'd often end up with three or four in a row. My record for the 253 was four buses in a row followed by a car followed by another bus. Miss that lot and you'd be waiting 40 minutes for the next one. But that doesn't happen now with oyster cards.


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## 5t3IIa (Sep 11, 2011)

5t3IIa said:


> Ideally, I'd like to be hoiked up by my armpits by a 6'5 chap in a dinner jacket and deposited gently on the pavement, with a kiss on the forehead.



"Have a great day, Stells" he'd whisper in my ear.


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## editor (Sep 11, 2011)

littlebabyjesus said:


> How often does that happen, though?


It's happened enough times to me to make it an issue - and the same applies for just missing a bus. With a Routemaster you can just hop on rather than having to wait about like a lemon for the next one.


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## editor (Sep 11, 2011)

stuff_it said:


> I don't tend to twist my ankle but I would still quite like this; or possibly a small flying carpet that swishes out, collects you at the roadside, and deposits you on the platform at the back.
> 
> The simple solution to this is to allow the driver to open the doors at lower speeds, by use of a limiter of some sort connected to the door release. They could still bring back conductors.


That "simple solution" doesn't seem to have ever surfaced - in fact, drivers seem even less inclined to let you off their buses early.


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## littlebabyjesus (Sep 11, 2011)

editor said:


> in fact, drivers seem even less inclined to let you off their buses early.


This is true. You used to be able to ask to be let off and they'd open the doors for you. I wouldn't blame the drivers, though. I can only presume that their managers have told them not to.


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## editor (Sep 11, 2011)

Poll from 2005 when the Routemasters were being scrapped:



> Do you agree or disagree with the decision to scrap the Routemaster from regular service?
> Agree 19%
> Disagree 81%
> 
> ...


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## Puddy_Tat (Sep 11, 2011)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Had they?



certainly my experience more often than not - and on the tame routemasters on the 15.  And I'm not saying "all.  Maybe the 36 generated a particular breed of conductor...

Had one experience a year or so before the 73 went bendy when I was travelling from Victoria to Kings Cross and having plenty of time and not being fond of the victoria line.  The conductor did come round somewhere around Hyde Park corner and I either paid or showed a travelcard (I can't remember now)

Somewhere round Gower Street, the conductor did come upstairs again, think I was the only passenger up there - he'd obviously forgotten seeing me.  I said "I got on at Victoria" and put my hand onto my trouser pocket to find my ticket to show him.  He looked alarmed and nearly ran down the stairs - perhaps not sure what I was reaching for.

This was daytime and I don't think I'm all that intimidating looking.


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## littlebabyjesus (Sep 11, 2011)

Well the routemasters had to be scrapped/replaced because they had reached the end of their lives.

Polls like that are all very well, but it's easy to give an opinion when you're not in charge and don't have to answer for your actions.

The bendies were shit, though. An expensive mistake. Good to see them going. But I still see nothing at all wrong with the regular double deckers, especially given the expense of bringing in a new routemaster.


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## littlebabyjesus (Sep 11, 2011)

Puddy_Tat said:


> certainly my experience more often than not - and on the tame routemasters on the 15. And I'm not saying "all. Maybe the 36 generated a particular breed of conductor...


Conductors would get a lot of grief on the 36, sad to say. Not an easy job at all when you've got a kid with attitude refusing to pay. To me that's just another reason not to have conducted buses, tbh. They seem an expensive and unnecessary luxury at best now we have oyster cards.


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## 5t3IIa (Sep 11, 2011)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Conductors would get a lot of grief on the 36, sad to say. Not an easy job at all when you've got a kid with attitude refusing to pay. To me that's just another reason not to have conducted buses, tbh. They seem an expensive and unnecessary luxury at best now we have oyster cards.



As far as I recall from this tour - the conductors aren't going to sell tickets, just check them.


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## littlebabyjesus (Sep 11, 2011)

5t3IIa said:


> As far as I recall from this tour - the conductors aren't going to sell tickets, just check them.


Complete waste of money having them then. This decision smacks of the worst kind of populism to me - people who should know better responding to 'popular demand' when they should be showing leadership and explaining why the majority public opinion is not in fact the sensible opinion.


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## stuff_it (Sep 11, 2011)

littlebabyjesus said:


> This is true. You used to be able to ask to be let off and they'd open the doors for you. I wouldn't blame the drivers, though. I can only presume that their managers have told them not to.


They will have been told not to, yes - but I don't see why this simple change in policy couldn't be done a lot cheaper.


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## wtfftw (Sep 11, 2011)

Are they also going to move back all the bus stops that now have larger distances between them to accommodate bendy bus pile ups and traffic lights etc?


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## GarfieldLeChat (Sep 11, 2011)

editor said:


> It's happened enough times to me to make it an issue - and the same applies for just missing a bus. With a Routemaster you can just hop on rather than having to wait about like a lemon for the next one.


for me this is the bonus there's nearly always traffic lights which are red just after most stops and the drivers being arsey and not stopping or pulling off as you get there adds an another 15 mins to your journey when they could just open the doors taking that god complex out of the drivers hands allows us all to move more freely.


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## littlebabyjesus (Sep 11, 2011)

'god complex'? 

They've stopped opening the doors away from stops almost certainly because they've been told not to. Don't blame drivers for the policy decisions of their bosses.


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## Puddy_Tat (Sep 11, 2011)

littlebabyjesus said:


> 'god complex'?
> 
> They've stopped opening the doors away from stops almost certainly because they've been told not to. Don't blame drivers for the policy decisions of their bosses.



^ this

and remember that buses are stuffed full of CCTV, automatic vehicle location kit and so on.

The technology certainly exists to record how many times, and where, bus doors were opened in the course of a journey.  I don't know whether TfL / London bus operators use it.


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## GarfieldLeChat (Sep 11, 2011)

littlebabyjesus said:


> 'god complex'?
> 
> They've stopped opening the doors away from stops almost certainly because they've been told not to. Don't blame drivers for the policy decisions of their bosses.


yeah god complex.

they can chose to open th doors they chose whether to obey orders or not.

The reasons they've stopped it is largely due to them being afraid of being sued for taking out a fuckwit on a bike who tries to squeeze down the side of a bus or if the person gettin goff sues because they were run over as as a result of not looking...

but if the bus has been waiting for a bit and clearly isn't going to move some 10 mters from the stopt hey still won't open the doors and go batshit mnetal if you use the open button to do so because your fed up of waiting...

fuck it i don't really need to explain anyone who's used a bus for any period of time in london knows precisely what I'm talking about...

clearly you don't and so should STFU...


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## littlebabyjesus (Sep 11, 2011)

GarfieldLeChat said:


> they can chose to open th doors they chose whether to obey orders or not.
> .


Really? Or are there considerations such as those outlined by puddy tat that you haven't considered?

As I said before, I've been using london buses long enough to have noticed the change. You think that is because drivers now have a god complex but used not to? Is that the most likely explanation?

If you take it upon yourself to open the doors, I don't blame them for going 'batshit mental', tbh. You may very well be getting that driver into potential trouble as he has to explain later why there's a record of the doors opening away from the stop. You might in fact be acting like a totally unreasonable dick.

Bus drivers have a tough job, imo, and they're undervalued and underpaid for what they do. Give them a break, eh?


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## Mr Blob (Sep 11, 2011)

Puddy_Tat said:


> I'm not convinced that every route the bendy-buses were put on to was right (although in part that could be down to local councils not doing their bit with highway works) but broadly don't see the problem with them. Possibly an expanded 'Red Arrow' network in central London overlaid on the existing route network would have been more sensible.


I believe bendy buses were introduced to London's roads based on fact such large passenger vehicles has been tried and established in European cities like Paris


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## maldwyn (Sep 11, 2011)

This has proved really useful since I started using it a few weeks.

m.countdown.Tfl.gov.uk


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## skyscraper101 (Sep 11, 2011)

I don't see why we can't keep bendy buses and introduce routemasters alongside them. The more buses the better.


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## GarfieldLeChat (Sep 11, 2011)

skyscraper101 said:


> I don't see why we can't keep bendy buses and introduce routemasters alongside them. The more buses the better.


cos they aren't made for or suitable for London's roads. there a menace to cars, bikes, cycles, pedestrians and they cause significant traffic issues through out the road networks.

They have in their short lives cause more injury and death than routemasters did in their entire usage...

Not to mention that they are one of the largest loss making areas for the London transport network which increases the fares for all of us.


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## GarfieldLeChat (Sep 11, 2011)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Really? Or are there considerations such as those outlined by puddy tat that you haven't considered?
> 
> As I said before, I've been using london buses long enough to have noticed the change. You think that is because drivers now have a god complex but used not to? Is that the most likely explanation?
> 
> ...



well done you've asked and answered your own question, aren't you the winner... 

I've never said it's the only reason...  try reading ...

but hey  set up your straw man if it makes you feel clever.

bus drivers have a job, it's not more tough than any other job, if they don't like the conditions they work in they're free to find another one, there's no reason to not expect a decent level of customer service where you're treated as a human being not an inconvenience in any customer service based job.  something which oddly only the UK has never got to grips with, and an area where a significant number of people involved in public transportation from planes, boats, trains and buses seem to have forgotten.

where as you say give people being crappy a break I say give the customers a break and cease employing people with behaviour problems to do customer service jobs...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-civil-servant-suffering-pedal-confusion.html

xcuse the mail link but by way of illustration...

http://www.popeater.com/2011/03/19/billy-elliot-dancer-killed/

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/stand...nt-is-12th-london-cyclist-killed-this-year.do

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/stand...-of-woman-cyclist-crushed-in-oxford-street.do

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-14431041

all found in less than 10 mins of a quick google search....

still think we should give them a break I think we should be giving them far better training and a pysch evaluation before letting them behind the wheel so yes a god complex, and no we shouldn't give them a break...

jumping red lights is a common occurrence, as it going through pedestrian crossings, deliberate blocking of crossings, charging up to junctions pulling out with out indicating and any number of other behaviours which would get any other road user time in jail...

so no i don't believe you use the buses regularly otherwise you'd have witnessed their repeated and deliberate actions which are abusive towards customers and dangerous towards other road users...


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## littlebabyjesus (Sep 11, 2011)

Bus drivers are subject to exactly the same rules and penalties as all other road users. I can't remember ever seeing a bus jump a red light, either as a passenger or a pedestrian. In fact, this whole sentence is hysterical nonsense, tbh.



> jumping red lights is a common occurrence, as it going through pedestrian crossings, deliberate blocking of crossings, charging up to junctions pulling out with out indicating and any number of other behaviours which would get any other road user time in jail...



And yes, I do think we should give bus drivers a break. They have to concentrate on their driving, not providing 'good customer service' ffs! Not many people have jobs where if they make a mistake they can kill someone and the last thing a bus driver needs when he or she is trying to concentrate on driving is some idiot trying to open the doors.

I clicked one of the links you gave there and it gave no indication at all that the accident was the driver's fault. That's pretty shameful of you, tbh, to bring up links to accidents involving buses and start pointing the finger at drivers, especially after you appear to have admitted that you give drivers grief in between stops when they need to be concentrating fully on the road. 

And I object to being called a customer. On public transport, I am a passenger, thank you.

ETA:

In future, if you're told to wait until the next stop before you can get off, do us all a favour - drivers, fellow passengers and other road users - and fucking well wait.


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## GarfieldLeChat (Sep 11, 2011)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Bus drivers are subject to exactly the same rules and penalties as all other road users. I can't remember ever seeing a bus jump a red light, either as a passenger or a pedestrian. In fact, this whole sentence is hysterical nonsense, tbh.
> 
> And yes, I do think we should give bus drivers a break. They have to concentrate on their driving, not providing 'good customer service' ffs! Not many people have jobs where if they make a mistake they can kill someone and the last thing a bus driver needs when he or she is trying to concentrate on driving is some idiot trying to open the doors.
> 
> ...



whateva you impotent twat...

not unsuprisingly your wrong again...


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## editor (Sep 12, 2011)

littlebabyjesus said:


> In future, if you're told to wait until the next stop before you can get off, do us all a favour - drivers, fellow passengers and other road users - and fucking well wait.


Why should passengers be forced to wait in situations where they can safely get off before the designated stop?


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## GarfieldLeChat (Sep 12, 2011)

editor said:


> Why should passengers be forced to wait in situations where they can safely get off before the designated stop?


it never happens, editor, little baby jesus has said so ... anyone wanting to use public transport as transport who expects a decent level of service is a grief giving, driver bashing, transport h8r, really not worth debating reality with them. at no point have their responses on this thread (or any other for that matter) borne any relation to what's been posted...

they are one of those so when you say this you mean that types who totally misunderstand and misrepresent others so they can tub thumb their own agendas and who refuse to acknowledge others might actually know their own mind, or have had experiences other than their own...

in other words an oxygen thief...


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## grit (Sep 12, 2011)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Bus drivers are subject to exactly the same rules and penalties as all other road users. I can't remember ever seeing a bus jump a red light, either as a passenger or a pedestrian. In fact, this whole sentence is hysterical nonsense, tbh.
> 
> And yes, I do think we should give bus drivers a break. They have to concentrate on their driving, not providing 'good customer service' ffs! Not many people have jobs where if they make a mistake they can kill someone and the last thing a bus driver needs when he or she is trying to concentrate on driving is some idiot trying to open the doors.
> 
> ...



Like it or not you are a customer, you are paying the bus company to provide you with the service of transportation. Any persons job that entails dealing with the public must at least acknowledge the fact that they are in a customer service position.


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## grit (Sep 12, 2011)

editor said:


> Why should passengers be forced to wait in situations where they can safely get off before the designated stop?



Safety of the other users of the road.


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## littlebabyjesus (Sep 12, 2011)

GarfieldLeChat said:


> it never happens, editor, little baby jesus has said so ... anyone wanting to use public transport as transport who expects a decent level of service is a grief giving, driver bashing, transport h8r, really not worth debating reality with them. at no point have their responses on this thread (or any other for that matter) borne any relation to what's been posted...
> 
> they are one of those so when you say this you mean that types who totally misunderstand and misrepresent others so they can tub thumb their own agendas and who refuse to acknowledge others might actually know their own mind, or have had experiences other than their own...
> 
> in other words an oxygen thief...


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## editor (Sep 12, 2011)

grit said:


> Safety of the other users of the road.


Did you miss the bit where I said, "Why should passengers be forced to wait in situations *where they can safely get off* before the designated stop?"


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## GarfieldLeChat (Sep 12, 2011)

man I didn't realise you had so many illiterates here... and here's me thinking dyslexia was bad enough but imagine not actually being able to read at all ... how do they type...


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## Crispy (Sep 12, 2011)

littlebabyjesus said:


> What is wrong with the regular double-deckers? They seem perfectly fit for their purpose to me. The new routemaster seems like a horrible waste of money.



The extra staircase and exit door will be useful when it comes to dwell times - people can exit via the rear stairs and enter via the front ones. Regardless of ad-hoc boarding/alighting (which will not be a common occurrence - those conductors will be too expensive to be seen on all routes), the extra doors will help.


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## Crispy (Sep 12, 2011)

editor said:


> Did you miss the bit where I said, "Why should passengers be forced to wait in situations *where they can safely get off* before the designated stop?"


Because in a situation where the passenger's assessment of safety is mistaken, leading to an accident, the bus companies do not want to be blamed for "allowing passenger to alight in a dangerous manner"


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## grit (Sep 12, 2011)

editor said:


> Did you miss the bit where I said, "Why should passengers be forced to wait in situations *where they can safely get off* before the designated stop?"



No I didnt, the reality is that mistakes happen and to have to safest experience for ALL road users it makes sense to only have passengers getting off the bus at the designated stops.

I seem to remember you complaining about car drivers as a cyclist ed, how would you feel about people randomly getting off the bus as you were cycling past? It would put both you and the bus user in danger.

Edit: what crispy said.


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## editor (Sep 12, 2011)

Crispy said:


> Because in a situation where the passenger's assessment of safety is mistaken, leading to an accident, the bus companies do not want to be blamed for "allowing passenger to alight in a dangerous manner"


Nanny state gone mad. Millions of people safely alighted from Routemasters for decades.


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## editor (Sep 12, 2011)

grit said:


> I seem to remember you complaining about car drivers as a cyclist ed, how would you feel about people randomly getting off the bus as you were cycling past? It would put both you and the bus user in danger.


Like any responsible road user, I'd be aware of the bus ahead and take suitable caution, just like drivers and cyclists have done for decades. But I'm sure you'll have some stats to hand cataloguing all these collisions between cyclists and passengers getting off Routemaster buses, yes?


----------



## grit (Sep 12, 2011)

editor said:


> Like any responsible road user, I'd be aware of the bus ahead and take suitable caution, just like drivers and cyclists have done for decades. But I'm sure you'll have some stats to hand cataloguing all these collisions between cyclists and passengers getting off Routemaster buses, yes?



Congratulations on being the only infallible road user, you should be educating others with your wisdom.


----------



## Crispy (Sep 12, 2011)

editor said:


> Like *any responsible road user*, I'd be aware of the bus ahead and take suitable caution, just like drivers and cyclists have done for decades.



Ah, that mythical beast!


----------



## editor (Sep 12, 2011)

grit said:


> Congratulations on being the only infallible road user, you should be educating others with your wisdom.


So, these stats detailing the terrible carnage created by people using Routemaster buses and all the cyclists smashing into departing passengers. You got 'em?


----------



## grit (Sep 12, 2011)

editor said:


> So, these stats detailing the terrible carnage created by people using Routemaster buses and all the cyclists smashing into departing passengers. You got 'em?



If a passenger having to wait a few extra minutes would reduce the possibility of someone being injured, isint that enough?

Is your time so fucking important that an extra minute that huge of an inconvience?

I could be wrong but I'd also suspect that the amount of traffic in London has increased in the last few decades?


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## Santino (Sep 12, 2011)

Bendy buses have more space (and are easier to board) for wheelchairs and buggies.


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## IC3D (Sep 12, 2011)

Santino said:


> Bendy buses have more space (and are easier to board) for wheelchairs and buggies.


This, double deckers are like an unsolvable logic puzzle when more than one buggy hops on. I've taken my bike on them too in the small hours and I don't begrudge the flat broke the freedom to get about the city a bit.


----------



## editor (Sep 12, 2011)

grit said:


> If a passenger having to wait a few extra minutes would reduce the possibility of someone being injured, isint that enough?


So exactly what is this "possibility of someone being injured"? Any idea? Or are you just running away with this whole nanny state idea?


----------



## editor (Sep 12, 2011)

Santino said:


> Bendy buses have more space (and are easier to board) for wheelchairs and buggies.


They're also TWICE as dangerous as other buses and encourage fare dodging. They've been an utter disaster.



> Today's figures show that bendy buses cause 5.6 pedestrian injuries per million miles operated, compared with 2.6 for all other buses.
> Bendy buses cause more than twice as many injuries as any other bus, according to official figures seen by the Standard.
> 
> More than 90 pedestrians and cyclists were injured by the new vehicles last year...
> ...


----------



## grit (Sep 12, 2011)

editor said:


> So exactly what is this "possibility of someone being injured"? Any idea? Or are you just running away with this whole nanny state idea?



Eh, that should be obvious. People getting off the bus without any indication to other road users puts them in a possibly dangerous position.

So was my assumption correct, has the profile of traffic changed in london in past few decades?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Sep 12, 2011)

Santino said:


> Bendy buses have more space (and are easier to board) for wheelchairs and buggies.


This is their one advantage, certainly. They are dangerous, though, as ed says. My friend was almost killed by one on her bike and I've been on one when a bike's been caught in the bend! Very scary. Basically, the driver doesn't have a precise idea of where the back of the bus is when turning corners.

But ed, and mr abusive twat garf, I'm sorry, if the driver of a normal double decker doesn't want to open the doors between stops, that is entirely their prerogative as the person in charge of the bus as far as I'm concerned. You should accept their decision with a little bit of grace.

To the point about customer service, customer service is a very very very secondary part of a bus driver's job. First, second and third priorities are driving the bus safely. Anything that might distract them from that they are entitled to refuse to do.


----------



## Santino (Sep 12, 2011)

In theory, they can get sacked for opening the doors between stops.


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## Crispy (Sep 12, 2011)

I saw two routemaster platform accidents before they got retired. One where a man jumped out before the bus had stopeed and ended up falling over himself. No major injury. One where an old man tried to jump on as the bus was moving off, and ended up being dragged along on his face.

Neither would have happened if the rear platform had doors like the boris bus. (I wish his name didn't start with a B so that the bikes and buses had other names).

Have the operating rules for the new rear platform been nailed down yet?


----------



## editor (Sep 12, 2011)

grit said:


> Eh, that should be obvious. People getting off the bus without any indication to other road users puts them in a possibly dangerous position.
> 
> So was my assumption correct, has the profile of traffic changed in london in past few decades?


You're the one making claims about bus safety and 'changing traffic profiles', so perhaps it's up to you to provide something concrete to support these claims.


----------



## editor (Sep 12, 2011)

Crispy said:


> I saw two routemaster platform accidents before they got retired. One where a man jumped out before the bus had stopeed and ended up falling over himself. No major injury. One where an old man tried to jump on as the bus was moving off, and ended up being dragged along on his face.


So both were entirely the fault of the passengers. I'm all for health and safety but personal responsibility has to come into it somewhere.

Routemasters were unsurpassed for quickly moving people around the slow moving streets of central London, with the open platform a superb idea for letting people hop on and hop off.


----------



## grit (Sep 12, 2011)

According to some reports I'm seeing figures such as a 88% increase in traffic since 1980. So it seems reasonable that what worked decades ago mightn't work now. However these are logical reasoned arguments which I'm sure you have no interest in as it doesn't align with your wish to mindlessly spew accusations of supporting a nanny state.

You are really like a caricature of yourself sometimes.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Sep 12, 2011)

editor said:


> So both were entirely the fault of the passengers. I'm all for health and safety but personal responsibility has to come into it somewhere.
> 
> Routemasters were unsurpassed for quickly moving people around the slow moving streets of central London, with the open platform a superb idea for letting people hop on and hop off.



I do agree with this to an extent - personal responsibility does have to come into it, but if there is an unacceptable level of accidents, there's a case for removing personal responsibility from the equation. But 1. routemasters had to be replaced as they had reached the end of their lives; and 2. is this a good enough reason to spend a fortune designing a new routemaster? I'm not so sure it is.

Plus, this nostalgia for routemasters skirts around their many disadvantages, imo. I remember them as cramped and awkward and very difficult to move around in. I always preferred the 'regular' double-deckers.


----------



## Crispy (Sep 12, 2011)

They were designed for people stunted by early C20th diets. Anyone over 6' cannot ride one in comfort. The rear platform was very useful, but would be impossible under modern safety laws. The boris bus design is a reasonable compromise (and the additional staircase + doors a big improvement), but the labour cost of conductors will severely limit their use. "Hop Off" will be a rarity. They make very bad financial sense, however. London's current bus fleet is very new. For the BBus to cost a reasonable amount, they will have to be bought in large numbers, displacing thousands of perfectly good double-deckers.


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## editor (Sep 12, 2011)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I do agree with this to an extent - personal responsibility does have to come into it, but if there is an unacceptable level of accidents, there's a case for removing personal responsibility from the equation.


I'm still waiting for someone to provide a compelling argument for an "unacceptable level of accidents" created by Routemasters. They were certainly over twice as safe as the bendy buses (according to the research I posted).


----------



## Crispy (Sep 12, 2011)

editor said:


> I'm still waiting for someone to provide a compelling argument for an "unacceptable level of accidents" created by Routemasters. They were certainly over twice as safe as the bendy buses (according to the research I posted).


The comparison should also include a modern double-decker, as they also replaced routemasters.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Sep 12, 2011)

editor said:


> I'm still waiting for someone to provide a compelling argument for an "unacceptable level of accidents" created by Routemasters. They were certainly over twice as safe as the bendy buses (according to the research I posted).


As Santino rightly pointed out, the bendy buses' huge advantage was the ease of taking buggies on them. And that was a big advantage - you'd see a lot of buggies on them and no doubt a lot of those people simply wouldn't have been able to use a bus in that way before.

But otherwise, bendy buses are awful in pretty much every way. Most people agree on this, I think.


----------



## editor (Sep 12, 2011)

grit said:


> According to some reports I'm seeing figures such as a 88% increase in traffic since 1980. .


I would have thought that increased traffic congestion would make the case for hop-on/hop-off buses even more compelling. The slower traffic moves, the more the need there is for passengers not to be stuck between stops in slow moving buses.

What are your sources for this "88% increase in traffic since 1980," anyway? The congestion charge had some impact in reducing traffic levels, and there's been a huge shift towards cycling in recent years.


grit said:


> You are really like a caricature of yourself sometimes.


I asked you for supporting facts for your argument. If you haven't got them, throwing around insults isn't going to help your case.


----------



## grit (Sep 12, 2011)

editor said:


> I would have thought that increased traffic congestion would make the case for hop-on/hop-off buses even more compelling. The slower traffic moves, the more the need there is for passengers not to be stuck between stops in slow moving buses.
> 
> What are your sources for this "88% increase in traffic since 1980," anyway? The congestion charge had some impact in reducing traffic levels, and there's been a huge shift towards cycling in recent years.
> I asked you for supporting facts for your argument. If you haven't got them, throwing around insults isn't going to help your case.



http://www.rbkc.gov.uk/environmentandtransport/roadsandhighways/roadsafetyandtravelplans.aspx


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## editor (Sep 12, 2011)

Crispy said:


> The comparison should also include a modern double-decker, as they also replaced routemasters.


And also include the safety of passengers _inside_ the bus too.


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## editor (Sep 12, 2011)

grit said:


> http://www.rbkc.gov.uk/environmentandtransport/roadsandhighways/roadsafetyandtravelplans.aspx


Those figures are not for central London, they're for the whole of the UK which is an entirely different thing.


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## grit (Sep 12, 2011)

editor said:


> Those figures are not for central London, they're for the whole of the UK which is an entirely different thing.



Yup, as I stated its one of the figures I've seen. Would you expect a decrease in central london when the rest of the uk has increased by nearly 100%?


----------



## editor (Sep 12, 2011)

Here's some relevant figures for London (2008):


> More than five years after the Congestion Charge was launched, and over a year after the western extension began, *traffic in central London remains 21 per cent lower than pre-charge levels* and traffic entering the extension has fallen by 14 per cent.
> 
> The figures contained within Transport for London's (TfL's) Sixth Annual Impacts Monitoring Report mean that 70,000 fewer cars enter the original zone each day compared to pre-charging levels, and 30,000 fewer cars enter the western extension.
> 
> http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/media/newscentre/archive/8948.aspx


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## littlebabyjesus (Sep 12, 2011)

surely the success of the congestion tax is reason not to need routemaster-style buses any more! The potential for delays between stops has been reduced significantly.


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## editor (Sep 12, 2011)

grit said:


> Would you expect a decrease in central london when the rest of the uk has increased by nearly 100%?


Your figures are incorrect. Road traffic is actually on the decline, both nationally and in London.


> *Road Traffic Statistics - Annual Road Traffic Estimates 2010 (Dept of Transport, June 2011)*
> 
> Car traffic fell by 2.1 per cent from 2009 to 243.8 billion vehicle miles in 2010. The decline in car
> traffic accounts for the majority of the fall in overall traffic in 2010.
> ...


Read more here: http://assets.dft.gov.uk/statistics/releases/traffic-estimates-2010/traffic-estimates-2010.pdf (PDF)


----------



## editor (Sep 12, 2011)

littlebabyjesus said:


> surely the success of the congestion tax is reason not to need routemaster-style buses any more! The potential for delays between stops has been reduced significantly.


London still has terrible levels of congestion.


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## littlebabyjesus (Sep 12, 2011)

That's a function of the recession, though (the decline in traffic). If the economy ever starts growing again, you can bet traffic will increase again.


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## Crispy (Sep 12, 2011)

littlebabyjesus said:


> surely the success of the congestion tax is reason not to need routemaster-style buses any more! The potential for delays between stops has been reduced significantly.


Very true. Although the bus network is still not perfect. Oxford Street, for a very good example.


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## littlebabyjesus (Sep 12, 2011)

Yep. Oxford Street's a mess. Quicker to get off and walk. More radical solutions are needed to that, though. I'd love to see large sections of central London reclaimed from motorised traffic altogether. But there are less radical things that other cities do that could help a lot, such as banning all deliveries after, say, 8 o'clock in the morning.


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## Crispy (Sep 12, 2011)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Yep. Oxford Street's a mess. Quicker to get off and walk. More radical solutions are needed to that, though. I'd love to see large sections of central London reclaimed from motorised traffic altogether. But there are less radical things that other cities do that could help a lot, such as banning all deliveries after, say, 8 o'clock in the morning.


Yep. The C-charge has removed nearly all the private vehicles from central London, but it's still choked by traffic. Buses, taxis and commercial vehicles. Lots of non-optional journeys. Topic for another thread though


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## GarfieldLeChat (Sep 12, 2011)

editor said:


> London still has terrible levels of congestion.


back to pre charge levels now...

the question is i guess as someone who's ardently anti charge anyways, is if it were removed would the previous trend prior to the cc of falling numbers of traffic year on year into london continue or would it in fact rise as a result of the 'free' roads.

Ultimately as has been said before the cc didn't solve the congestion caused by the poor and badly designed road planning and networks through out London or the obsession of blocking through roads and pedestrianising areas which have no business being pedestrainised.

And they still haven't synched the ridiculous amount of traffic lights which all need to be sorted.

The cc has proved that it wasn't private vehicle levels which were causing the problems but poor road design.

I know you disagree with my stance on the CC however


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## GarfieldLeChat (Sep 12, 2011)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Yep. Oxford Street's a mess. Quicker to get off and walk. More radical solutions are needed to that, though. I'd love to see large sections of central London reclaimed from motorised traffic altogether. But there are less radical things that other cities do that could help a lot, such as banning all deliveries after, say, 8 o'clock in the morning.


they need to remove the oversized pavements and take it back to two lanes in both directions which would allow a bus lane on each side and a standard traffic lane.

it's rare to see any pedestrains using the additional paved areas even when it's chocka with people...


----------



## GarfieldLeChat (Sep 12, 2011)

Crispy said:


> Ah, that mythical beast!


to you maybe.  to us who are certainly not.

no everyone has a road warrior mentality you know...


----------



## DJWrongspeed (Sep 12, 2011)

Never understood why people don't like'm, they get london moving. We need more not less. Double deckers just slow everything up.  Congestion is a greater evil than fare dodging.


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## GarfieldLeChat (Sep 12, 2011)

grit said:


> No I didnt, the reality is that mistakes happen and to have to safest experience for ALL road users it makes sense to only have passengers getting off the bus at the designated stops.
> 
> I seem to remember you complaining about car drivers as a cyclist ed, how would you feel about people randomly getting off the bus as you were cycling past? It would put both you and the bus user in danger.



two things cyclists with any sense don't squeeze past the inside of buses...

two we should ban buses if you want to eliminate all risk entirely, they are clearly possible to kill passengers if someone gets on them with a rucksack bomb so we should put them at risk as it's safest for experience for all road users... and makes sense...

or we could you know have a modicum of common sense about the whole thing and hey introduce legislation or bylaws which say it's legal to dismount a bus at a non designated stop with the drivers consent but if you do you are by doing so prevented from suing as you have assumed all responsibility for your own safety, you know like and adult...


----------



## GarfieldLeChat (Sep 12, 2011)

DJWrongspeed said:


> Never understood why people don't like'm, they get london moving. We need more not less. Double deckers just slow everything up.


have you read the thread at all?

they aren't designed for or suited for Londons roads, they've caused more accidents than routemasters did in their entire lifespan and are a menace to all road users from wheeled to foot...


----------



## grit (Sep 12, 2011)

GarfieldLeChat said:


> two things cyclists with any sense don't squeeze past the inside of buses...
> 
> two we should ban buses if you want to eliminate all risk entirely, they are clearly possible to kill passengers if someone gets on them with a rucksack bomb so we should put them at risk as it's safest for experience for all road users... and makes sense...
> 
> or we could you know have a modicum of common sense about the whole thing and hey introduce legislation or bylaws which say it's legal to dismount a bus at a non designated stop with the drivers consent but if you do you are by doing so prevented from suing as you have assumed all responsibility for your own safety, you know like and adult...



Yeah only issue with that is, common sense, aint too common.


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## littlebabyjesus (Sep 12, 2011)

GarfieldLeChat said:


> or we could you know have a modicum of common sense about the whole thing and hey introduce legislation or bylaws which say it's legal to dismount a bus at a non designated stop with the drivers consent but if you do you are by doing so prevented from suing as you have assumed all responsibility for your own safety, you know like and adult...


The law doesn't work like that, and it is right that the law doesn't work like that. You want everyone to sign a waver before they get off? Because that's what would be needed at the very least to absolve the drivers of their duty of care.


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## GarfieldLeChat (Sep 12, 2011)

littlebabyjesus said:


> The law doesn't work like that, and it is right that the law doesn't work like that. You want everyone to sign a waver before they get off? Because that's what would be needed at the very least to absolve the drivers of their duty of care.


could be auto signed by purchase of ticket.

as part of the purchase agreement... like train tickets don't actually legally entitle you to travel on a train ...


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Sep 12, 2011)

So how do you ensure that everyone buying a ticket is aware that they are signing away their statutory right?

Actually, scratch that, the whole point about statutory rights is that they cannot be signed away.


----------



## GarfieldLeChat (Sep 12, 2011)

littlebabyjesus said:


> So how do you ensure that everyone buying a ticket is aware that they are signing away their statutory right?
> 
> Actually, scratch that, the whole point about statutory rights is that they cannot be signed away.


pay as you go oyster holders must do what at the start and finish of every journey?

if you can answer this question you have your answer about how one might get a message across on a combined transport network...


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## GarfieldLeChat (Sep 12, 2011)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Actually, scratch that, the whole point about statutory rights is that they cannot be signed away.



what statutory right is there to not only alight at a stop.  quote chapter and verse.

and generic health and safety isn't applicable in actions taken by the individual of their own recourse in matters such as these as they aren't employees or dependents of the company...


----------



## GarfieldLeChat (Sep 12, 2011)

grit said:


> Yeah only issue with that is, common sense, aint too common.


yep the issue is we cannot and should not legislate for the stupid at the expense of the wider society the course of action is instead education of that society to cease doing stupid things...


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Sep 12, 2011)

GarfieldLeChat said:


> what statutory right is there to not only alight at a stop. quote chapter and verse.
> 
> and generic health and safety isn't applicable in actions taken by the individual of their own recourse in matters such as these as they aren't employees or dependents of the company...



If you are being carried by any form of public transport, you have statutory health and safety rights, and the company carrying you has a legally enforceable duty of care. In this case, the driver has to open  the doors for you to get off so it's not 'actions taken by the individual of their own recourse'.


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## GarfieldLeChat (Sep 12, 2011)

littlebabyjesus said:


> If you are being carried by any form of public transport, you have statutory health and safety rights, and the company carrying you has a legally enforceable duty of care. In this case, the driver has to open the doors for you to get off so it's not 'actions taken by the individual of their own recourse'.


at the moment you request the doors to be opened that would be an action taken by the individual of their own recourse.

Unless you believe it's legal for a driver to hold you hostage against your will due to health and safety.

As I said in my post which you again haven't read specific legislation not generalised health and safety legislation which isn't applicable to entrance and exiting of a vehicle...


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Sep 12, 2011)

GarfieldLeChat said:


> at the moment you request the doors to be opened that would be an action taken by the individual of their own recourse.
> 
> Unless you believe it's legal for a driver to hold you hostage against your will due to health and safety.
> 
> As I said in my post which you again haven't read specific legislation not generalised health and safety legislation which isn't applicable to entrance and exiting of a vehicle...



I did read it. You were just talking crap as usual.

And yes, it is legal for the driver not to let you off immediately for health and safety reasons. Of course it is.

You going to start hurling abuse at me again? Maybe you'd like to post some more links to stories of fatal accidents involving buses?


----------



## gentlegreen (Sep 12, 2011)

... and at least one is on trial in Bristol. The city with possibly the worst reputation for its bus service in the country. 



http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=br...s=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a


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## GarfieldLeChat (Sep 12, 2011)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I did read it. You were just talking crap as usual.
> 
> And yes, it is legal for the driver not to let you off immediately for health and safety reasons. Of course it is.
> 
> You going to start hurling abuse at me again? Maybe you'd like to post some more links to stories of fatal accidents involving buses?


what nonsense is this you've failed to read the comments., made straw men, run off on nonsense flights of whimsy... all of which has been pointed out to you this isn't abuse it's pointing out the error in your argument.

if that's offensive then cease making stupid irrelevant points...

no it's not legal to hold someone hostage against their will and no your deliberate dishonest misrepresentation of what I said isn't accurate or worth discussion...


----------



## big eejit (Sep 12, 2011)

Is there anywhere that gives an authorative explanation of why these bendy buses are being phased out?


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## Crispy (Sep 12, 2011)

big eejit said:


> Is there anywhere that gives an authorative explanation of why these bendy buses are being phased out?



Boris promised to do it as part of his election campaign. His current statement on the subject is:


> The Mayor believes bendy buses are not suitable for the city, as they are too long for many London streets and cyclists often find them intimidating. He was elected on a clear mandate to scrap them. This process is well under way and will be completed by 2011.


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## littlebabyjesus (Sep 12, 2011)

GarfieldLeChat said:


> no it's not legal to hold someone hostage against their will and no your deliberate dishonest misrepresentation of what I said isn't accurate or worth discussion...


What are you on about now? A bus driver is not holding a passenger hostage by refusing to open the doors until the bus reaches the next stop! What other context is relevant here?


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## big eejit (Sep 12, 2011)

Crispy said:


> Boris promised to do it as part of his election campaign. His current statement on the subject is:



Thanks


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## GarfieldLeChat (Sep 12, 2011)

littlebabyjesus said:


> What are you on about now? A bus driver is not holding a passenger hostage by refusing to open the doors until the bus reaches the next stop! What other context is relevant here?


that's still not answering my question.

care to try again...


----------



## nagapie (Sep 12, 2011)

I got a free bus today. It was very handy as I hadn't had time to top up my oyster. I will miss them.


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## skyscraper101 (Sep 12, 2011)

Perhaps they should just sell them all to airports. They love bendy busses.


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## DJWrongspeed (Sep 13, 2011)

GarfieldLeChat said:


> have you read the thread at all?
> 
> they aren't designed for or suited for Londons roads, they've caused more accidents than routemasters did in their entire lifespan and are a menace to all road users from wheeled to foot...



yes i've scanned the thread but am not entirely persuaded.  Perhaps they just don't work in the westend but there are plenty of other roads where they ought to be ideal.  Loads of cities do have them.


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## Roadkill (Sep 15, 2011)

Never thought much of bendy buses - the ride seems harder than a normal bus and there aren't enough seats.  Plus, I can well see why drivers and cyclists don't like them, and obviously the level of fare dodging counts against them too.  However, I'd rather see them replaced with conventional double deckers than the 'new Routemaster,' which is just a pointless and expensive Bojo vanity project.


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## paolo (Sep 16, 2011)

Roadkill said:


> Never thought much of bendy buses - the ride seems harder than a normal bus and there aren't enough seats. Plus, I can well see why drivers and cyclists don't like them, and obviously the level of fare dodging counts against them too. However, I'd rather see them replaced with conventional double deckers than the 'new Routemaster,' which is just a pointless and expensive Bojo vanity project.



*If* it has an open platform, then it's functionally quite different than a regular double decker.

The number of 'undesignated stops' massively increases.  Consequently, dwell times at designated stops are reduced. So it becomes more convenient for passengers, and improves overall route times.

If however it doesn't have an open platform, then yes - it's solely an aesthetics / vanity project thing.

And either way, it is indeed hugely expensive for the limited numbers they are going to initially make, and I suspect they'll never get the volumes up to make it a reasonable price.


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## Crispy (Sep 16, 2011)

Even then, it would only make sense if London's bus fleet was in need of replacement. After substantial investment over the last 10 years, most of the 8000 buses in the fleet are modern and in good condition. If the B.Bus was produced in significant numbers in order to get the price down, then that's a lot of perfectly good buses that will have to be sold off.


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## paolo (Sep 16, 2011)

Crispy said:


> Even then, it would only make sense if London's bus fleet was in need of replacement. After substantial investment over the last 10 years, most of the 8000 buses in the fleet are modern and in good condition. If the B.Bus was produced in significant numbers in order to get the price down, then that's a lot of perfectly good buses that will have to be sold off.



Yes, although...

The Routemaster was only a subset of the overall fleet.

To achieve an equivalent level of service wouldn't need 8000 of them. (If I have a moment I'll look up what the routey fleet size was).


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## Crispy (Sep 16, 2011)

2,644 of them. plenty of other older buses have been replaced too.


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## IC3D (Sep 16, 2011)

Drivers on double deckers can't brake smoothly for some reason you never have this problem on bendys and its pointed already its a vanity project for a upperclass prick designed by mac fanboys.


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## wemakeyousoundb (Sep 16, 2011)

editor said:


> That "simple solution" doesn't seem to have ever surfaced - in fact, drivers seem even less inclined to let you off their buses early.


well, they have been instructed not to do so says the signs in the buses
litigation society bla bla bla
hell in a handcart etc

I'll miss the bendies personally :'(


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## wemakeyousoundb (Sep 16, 2011)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Bus drivers are subject to exactly the same rules and penalties as all other road users. I can't remember ever seeing a bus jump a red light, either as a passenger or a pedestrian. In fact, this whole sentence is hysterical nonsense, tbh.


you are obviously not paying attention then.
disclaimer: some of my friends are bus drivers  
tbh quite a lot of drivers will actually let you off before the stop if traffic is stuck, but some will "play by the book" and you can't really blame them, in the end they could get a blame if nothing happens, and get into a lot of shit if an accident ensue.
One of the above mentioned friend told me that when cctv was introduced, the most important camera in there was the one watching the driver to make sure he collected fares and checked peoples tickets, at least that was his opinion, somehow I'd be inclined to believe him, revenue protection and al that.


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## Cid (Sep 16, 2011)

I've come round to the bendy buses tbh, high capacity and quick boarding times. I don't mind them as a cyclist (actually they tend to drive more sensibly than routemasters ime).

The old routemasters were pretty and doubtless great when they came in, but really a colossal pile of shit.


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## paolo (Sep 17, 2011)

Double deckers carry more passengers per metre of road than bendys, despite giving most people a seat rather than making them stand.


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## not-bono-ever (Sep 18, 2011)

a mate collects buses ( routmasters ) and went to check out these for maybe resale - he said there are tons mothballed up in Sheffield or somewhere. Apparently they are of very limited use elsewhere, mainly cos of the sise the doors operate on, but alos they are no use at airports and suchlike cos the gearing and diff would need changed. I think they go for about £50K each to the trade these days.


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## Mr Blob (Sep 21, 2011)

Cid said:


> I've come round to the bendy buses ........quick boarding times


love it- swiftly on the bendy !


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## paolo (Sep 21, 2011)

Quick boarding times at designated bus stops. Infinite boarding times at all other stops - compared with an open platform bus.


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## Santino (Sep 22, 2011)

paolo999 said:


> Double deckers carry more passengers per metre of road than bendys, despite giving most people a seat rather than making them stand.


Is passengers per metre the best measure? Genuine question. Why not passengers per bus driver? Or passengers per £ of cost to run and maintain?


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## littlebabyjesus (Sep 22, 2011)

There are a few measures that all need to be balanced, aren't there? Dwell times at stops are a biggie, and oyster cards have improved those considerably. Passengers per metre has to be a consideration too.

Plus of course, as you pointed out, bendies are buggie-friendly. That's their only genuine plus point, imo. The fact that they cause more accidents than double deckers is their biggest minus point.


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## paolo (Sep 22, 2011)

littlebabyjesus said:


> There are a few measures that all need to be balanced, aren't there? Dwell times at stops are a biggie



Yes indeed, various measures count. Although I would say from a passenger point of view, I'm less bothered by cost. If my journey is rubbish because the bus company has saved 5p per passenger journey, I'd think it was bad thing not a good thing.

Also... dwell times _can_ be measured in a misleading way.

If we measure the dwell time required for [x] passengers, the bendies will win over open platform. The big *however* is that with open platform, less passengers need to use the designated stops. So it's *route* times that really matter, not dwell times in isolation.


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## Crispy (Sep 22, 2011)

paolo999 said:


> If we measure the dwell time required for [x] passengers, the bendies will win over open platform. The big *however* is that with open platform, less passengers need to use the designated stops. So it's *route* times that really matter, not dwell times in isolation.


The platform will only be "open" when a conductor is on board. You can make your own guess as to how often a completely optional member of staff will be provided by the bus companies.


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## paolo (Sep 22, 2011)

Crispy said:


> The platform will only be "open" when a conductor is on board. You can make your own guess as to how often a completely optional member of staff will be provided by the bus companies.



Has it even been confirmed they will be open at all?

_(My point here was comparing with open platform, not specifically the B bus.)_


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## Crispy (Sep 22, 2011)

No, not truly open. They will have a door, which can be operated other than at stops at the discretion of the conductor.
Regardless, it will help reduce dwell times at regular stops, as people will exit the top deck by the rear stairs and enter it by the front. My bus home today stopped twice as long as it should have at every stop because the people boarding had to wait for the stairs to clear of people leaving the bus.


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## paolo (Sep 22, 2011)

Crispy said:


> No, not truly open. They will have a door, which can be operated other than at stops at the discretion of the conductor.



So it's not really going to be an open platform bus. I guess I shouldn't be too surprised.


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## spliff (Sep 24, 2011)

Is this where they end up?


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## maldwyn (Dec 9, 2011)

The last bendy (207) leaves town tonight.


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## pengaleng (Dec 10, 2011)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Bus drivers are subject to exactly the same rules and penalties as all other road users. I can't remember ever seeing a bus jump a red light, either as a passenger or a pedestrian. In fact, this whole sentence is hysterical nonsense, tbh.



You are seriously claiming you've never seen a bus jump a light? Seriously? Because that sounds much more like 'hysterical nonsense'.


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## Boycey (Dec 10, 2011)

good riddance.


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## cybertect (Dec 11, 2011)

spliff said:


> Is this where they end up?


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## cybertect (Dec 11, 2011)

not-bono-ever said:


> a mate collects buses ( routmasters ) and went to check out these for maybe resale - he said there are tons mothballed up in Sheffield or somewhere. Apparently they are of very limited use elsewhere, mainly cos of the sise the doors operate on, but alos they are no use at airports and suchlike cos the gearing and diff would need changed. I think they go for about £50K each to the trade these days.



Quite likely at PVS Carlton in Barnsley


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## hash tag (Aug 17, 2017)

So, one mayor introduces them, the next does away with them, yet now I see there are calls to reintroduce them 
Sadiq Khan has been told to bring bendy buses back to London


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## Pickman's model (Aug 17, 2017)

hash tag said:


> So, one mayor introduces them, the next does away with them, yet now I see there are calls to reintroduce them
> Sadiq Khan has been told to bring bendy buses back to London


yeh but we've had enough of experts.


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## skyscraper101 (Aug 17, 2017)

I never had a problem with them. I rather liked them even. They were quicker to board than the alternatives and had lots of room inside. Bring them back! Fuck Boris.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 17, 2017)

skyscraper101 said:


> I never had a problem with them. I rather liked them even. They were quicker to board than the alternatives and had lots of room inside. Bring them back! Fuck Boris.


bloody awful things, still feel sorry for malta who got all our rejects


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## skyscraper101 (Aug 17, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> bloody awful things, still feel sorry for malta who got all our rejects



What was it you didn't like about them?


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## NoXion (Aug 17, 2017)

I liked them, but mainly because I could get a free ride off them quite easily. But otherwise they were interesting for the same kinds of reasons that double deckers are more interesting than normal buses.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 17, 2017)

skyscraper101 said:


> What was it you didn't like about them?


Not enough seats frequently overcrowded people's manners went out window


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## paolo (Aug 17, 2017)

skyscraper101 said:


> I never had a problem with them. I rather liked them even. They were quicker to board than the alternatives and had lots of room inside. Bring them back! Fuck Boris.



Did you get a seat often?


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## skyscraper101 (Aug 18, 2017)

paolo said:


> Did you get a seat often?



I genuinely don't remember. I'm more interested in capacity and efficiency.


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