# Docking of pay



## Garek (Nov 2, 2012)

Got a situation a work which I need some advice on. Basically my timekeeping has been poor which I accept have made moves to amend. However in addition to the hours I am making up from the last month they have used our clock in/out hand scanner to go through my hours back to January to see how much I owe. The figure they have come with is 5.5 days or 38.5 hours. The choices they have given I either accept my pay to be docked by this amount or I work 38.5 hours for free. Normally they inform us of any hours owed, once a month, before payday. They have not done this with me so I thought I was ok. Clearly not.

I have spoken to my Union, Unite, how have been absolutely dreadful and keep saying they will call me back but never do, and ACAS who has said they employers can dock pay if they believe there has been an overpayment. ACAS have stated that me being paid for hours not work constitutes an overpayment.

I also have discovered today that I had had my remaining holiday time revoked as a way of dealing with this issue. This has been done without my consultation and without notice. I also have not been subject to any form of disciplinary proceeding nor have I been informed of any of this in writing.

If there is any advice that people can give in how I can go about sorting this that would much appreciated. Cheers.


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## Ax^ (Nov 2, 2012)

Well if they have taken remaining holiday to d


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## Ax^ (Nov 2, 2012)

Well if they have taken remaining holiday to deal with the issue why are they threatening to dock your pay


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## Garek (Nov 2, 2012)

I should point out the remaining holiday was 0.5 a day so the amount I own has gone from 6 days to 5.5.


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## Ax^ (Nov 2, 2012)

That is an impressive tally of lateness I must admit..


Irish heritage?


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## Garek (Nov 2, 2012)

You got any advice or just racism?


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## cesare (Nov 2, 2012)

Some of the key points you need here: https://www.gov.uk/understanding-your-pay/deductions-from-your-pay

You're probably best raising a grievance to start with. Check your contract/handbook etc to see if there's anything there that has a bearing, too.


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## Ax^ (Nov 2, 2012)

Garek said:


> You got any advice or just racism?



Hardly racism just a question..


And nevermind


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## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Nov 2, 2012)

It's not very clear from the OP what you want to happen? Is the time they've come up with broadly accurate or are they using it to try and rip you off?


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## cesare (Nov 2, 2012)

Also chase Unite again, by email. Escalate it.


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## Garek (Nov 2, 2012)

Contract does not give the option to deduct pay so that is one thing ticked off the list. 

I am quite worried by this: http://www.acas.org.uk/index.aspx?articleid=1489 "There are exemptions from these conditions which allow you to recover, for example, an *earlier overpayment of wages* or expenses to a worker."


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## Garek (Nov 2, 2012)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> It's not very clear from the OP what you want to happen? Is the time they've come up with broadly accurate or are they using it to try and rip you off?


 
I am pretty sure it is accurate, I'll need to go through it again. My main issue is the way this has been sprung on me. They have not done this with anyone else. This has happened shortly after I attended a grievance meeting with someone. 

I want a resolution which feels fair. Normally when timekeeping issues are raised it is a matter of a few hours which is why they do it once a month before pay. They have not done this with me. It feels completely arbitrary and punitive.


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## cesare (Nov 2, 2012)

Garek said:


> Contract does not give the option to deduct pay so that is one thing ticked off the list.
> 
> I am quite worried by this: http://www.acas.org.uk/index.aspx?articleid=1489 "There are exemptions from these conditions which allow you to recover, for example, an *earlier overpayment of wages* or expenses to a worker."


Yep, they can recover an overpayment. However, you need to be satisfied that their calculations are correct, that this is how they normally recoup overpayments (and that you're not being singled out), that this is what they've done in the past (precedents), and a repayment plan so not necessarily all docked in one month.


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## sim667 (Nov 2, 2012)

If their calculations are correct, than just take it, at the end of the day you haven't worked your contracted hours which means you havent kept up your side of the contract..... The employers are being reasonably fair I reckon, otherwise you'd have had warnings and been out of the company by now.


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## Garek (Nov 2, 2012)

sim667 said:


> If their calculations are correct, than just take it, at the end of the day you haven't worked your contracted hours which means you havent kept up your side of the contract..... The employers are being reasonably fair I reckon, otherwise you'd have had warnings and been out of the company by now.


 
"Just take it". 6 days worth of pay out of the pay packet before Christmas? I am not quite sure how much you are paid but this will completely and utterly fuck my finances.

We're talking going back 10 months and taking 5, 10, 15 minutes here and there to come up with this figure. I will go through this weekend and check its accuracy.


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## Citizen66 (Nov 2, 2012)

If unite aren't being helpful contact the person above the one who is crap. You've paid your subs so now it's time for them to do what they claim to do.


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## cesare (Nov 2, 2012)

Citizen66 said:


> If unite aren't being helpful contact the person above the one who is crap. You've paid your subs so now it's time for them to do what they claim to do.


Aye. And ask for a FT Unite contact in P&P


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## Pingu (Nov 2, 2012)

maybe try to negotiate a phased repayment or a reduction in holiday entitlement for next year

however they may see it as "you took the piss so now they will"

having said that i do feel that going back and adding up loads of 5 minutes is a bit petty. Would i be correct n assuming you have pissed someone in HR off?


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## TitanSound (Nov 2, 2012)

I had a few days AWOL a few years back when life was less then rosy. I fully admitted it and it was dealt with via salary sacrifice. I paid back an agreed amount over 4 months rather than one lump sum.

But yes, defo make sure the figures add up.


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## Nanker Phelge (Nov 2, 2012)

sim667 said:


> If their calculations are correct, than just take it, at the end of the day you haven't worked your contracted hours which means you havent kept up your side of the contract..... The employers are being reasonably fair I reckon, otherwise you'd have had warnings and been out of the company by now.


 
It's quite unusual for an employer to ask for time back or dock pay.

Saying that, someone's not kept their eye on the ball if they let a person rack up six days worth of lateness.

Usually this would result in some kind of warning way before you could accrue so many hours/days...followed by a formal disciplinary should the lateness continue.

OP - had they ever raised this before?


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## Garek (Nov 2, 2012)

Nanker Phelge said:


> It's quite unusual for an employer to ask for time back or dock pay.
> 
> Saying that, someone's not kept their eye on the ball if they let a person rack up six days worth of lateness.
> 
> ...


 
Never officially. There were concerns raised about my timekeeping. I addressed them. I also got it clarified that there is not actual problem with my work. A lot of the problem comes down to the fact I have very little to do and I am bored out my skull and half the time it feel pointless me being here. 

I have not received any form of disciplinary nor ever had any official disciplinary letter. 

The HR person took her eye of the ball, and now is compensating by going back 10 months.


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## cesare (Nov 2, 2012)

You must know some nice employers, Nanker. Many employers would be after time owed like a rat up an aqueduct.


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## Garek (Nov 2, 2012)

Pingu said:


> Would i be correct n assuming you have pissed someone in HR off?


 
Yep. And the managers. I work in a place with open homophobia, racism and misogyny and I call people up on it. It doesn't exactly make me popular.


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## cesare (Nov 2, 2012)

Garek said:


> Yep. And the managers. I work in a place with open homophobia, racism and misogyny and I call people up on it. It doesn't exactly make me popular.


If the grievance you attended was about unlawful discrimination, you could hit them with a victimisation grievance.


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## Garek (Nov 2, 2012)

So the (sensible) resolutions people suggest are, in summary, arrange for the pay to be docked over a period of months rather than in one go? Also try and push ahead with Union advice?


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## TitanSound (Nov 2, 2012)

Garek said:


> So the (sensible) resolutions people suggest are, in summary, arrange for the pay to be docked over a period of months rather than in one go? Also try and push ahead with Union advice?


 
Don't push ahead. Demand it. You pay your membership fee so let them do something about it!


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## porno thieving gypsy (Nov 2, 2012)

I think you should go to them with a reasonable proposal to repay the time over a longer period - if they refuse that up's the ante. But I suspect they won't. Taking your annual leave doesn't sound right though - i'd query that, unless of course it suits you to write some off against your "debt".


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## Garek (Nov 2, 2012)

TitanSound said:


> Don't push ahead. Demand it. You pay your membership fee so let them do something about it!


 
They have finally got back to me and they have said there is nothing I can do except renegociate a payment plan.


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## TitanSound (Nov 2, 2012)

Garek said:


> They have finally got back to me and they have said there is nothing I can do except renegociate a payment plan.


 
So they have nothing to say about it suddenly coming after a grievance hearing? Plus the fact that it's a ten month total when normal procedure is to review it every month?


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## Garek (Nov 2, 2012)

TitanSound said:


> So they have nothing to say about it suddenly coming after a grievance hearing? Plus the fact that it's a ten month total when normal procedure is to review it every month?


 
They said that if an employee can go back 6 years to claim back underpay then an employer can do the same with overpay. They said if I owe it, I owe and I would have to prove it was in some unusual.


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## TitanSound (Nov 2, 2012)

Sounds like you're better off negotiating re-payment then.


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## Pingu (Nov 2, 2012)

aye.. legally they are correct, they can deduct it.

this bit i think yo are going to have to suck up and negotiate a phased repayment

however IMO there is also a bigger picture here wrt any victimistion. I would not however tackle this until after you have renegotiated the repayment or they may just tell you to fuck off


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## sim667 (Nov 2, 2012)

Garek said:


> "Just take it". 6 days worth of pay out of the pay packet before Christmas? *I am not quite sure how much you are paid but this will completely and utterly fuck my finances.*
> 
> We're talking going back 10 months and taking 5, 10, 15 minutes here and there to come up with this figure. I will go through this weekend and check its accuracy.


 
I'm pretty sure im paid less than you, as Im paid fuck all, but I do turn up to work on time, and leave when I'm meant to.


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## Garek (Nov 2, 2012)

sim667 said:


> I'm pretty sure im paid less than you, as Im paid fuck all, but I do turn up to work on time, and leave when I'm meant to.


 
Well done. Have a cookie.


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## Citizen66 (Nov 2, 2012)

Unite are terrible. They're our rival union at work and I've never seen them do anything other than see things from the employer's pov, which is what they're doing here.


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## peterkro (Nov 2, 2012)

Do you clock out at exactly the correct time each day?,if not add all the times you clocked out late and bill them for it.


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## Garek (Nov 2, 2012)

Citizen66 said:


> Unite are terrible. They're our rival union at work and I've never seen them do anything other than see things from the employer's pov, which is what they're doing here.


 
That doesn't sound at all like the behaviour of a reformist union


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## cesare (Nov 2, 2012)

Garek said:


> They said that if an employee can go back 6 years to claim back underpay then an employer can do the same with overpay. They said if I owe it, I owe and I would have to prove it was in some unusual.


There's quite a good article here: http://www.shoosmiths.co.uk/client-...-when-and-how-can-employers-recover-3973.aspx

I think you should go back to Unite and ask for better support than this. Also, who else have they gone back over the clocking in/out records for? This is a lot of effort. If you *are* being targeted you need better advice from Unite, and you also need their help to ensure you get the repayments sorted out on a more equitable basis, perhaps over 10 months.


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## Garek (Nov 2, 2012)

peterkro said:


> Do you clock out at exactly the correct time each day?,if not add all the times you clocked out late and bill them for it.


 
I do have one gamble. I was good as gold, beyond good as gold, when I started. I could ask, and admittedly it is a risky strategy as it could backfire, to have all my time sheets printed going back to when I first start 3 years go. I then could go through it all with a fine tooth comb and see if my goodness at the start balances out my recent lateness.


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## sim667 (Nov 2, 2012)

Garek said:


> Well done. Have a cookie.



I don't know why your getting arsey with me. A you've said you've had problems with lateness, B. you've said you're employers calculations are accurate (but you're goin to check them), C. The timing isn't great obviously just before Xmas, but as far as I'm aware the employer is within their rights to take the money back, in all fairness it could be a lot worse considering you've not kept up your part from your contractual agreement. I agree with tits that your best option is try and agree a repayment plan.

So why you've decided to make snarky little comments to me when actually you're the one acting like a spoilt little cunt throwing their toys out of the pram because someone's caught up with you about something you're fully aware you've done wrong.


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## Pingu (Nov 2, 2012)

tbh i wouldnt bother.

they will only find some other thing to hit you with - seeing as you have pissed off HR and management, and at least at the moment you have a job still*.

main thing i would be loking at at the moment is to reduce the impact of losing a weeks pay just before christmas.

the rest can follow once you have a signed agreement on that.

despite the various protections in place it is still relatively easy to get rid of someone if you really want to.

for example they could argue that the number of days you owe constitutes gross misconduct... yes you could then take this to a tribunal but in the meantime you have no money comming in...


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## geminisnake (Nov 2, 2012)

Garek said:


> They have finally got back to me and they have said there is nothing I can do except renegociate a payment plan.


 
Tell them to shove their fees up their arse if that's the best they can do!!
If I was you I'd start recording all the stuff that has happened re:rascism, etc. Someone should have pulled you up on your slackness months ago not 10 months down the line. That is THEIR failing so are they getting pulled up about that?? I'd be asking but obviously this may  make you more unpopular.
I would be looking for another job too!

Good luck!


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## Citizen66 (Nov 2, 2012)

Unite need to be approaching the management with questions such as:

Who else have they targetted for ten months of time keeping?
If nobody else, why were you selected?
If only you, will other people be selected?
What is the company's history of doing this?

Because if they don't answer satisfactorarily (sp?) then they could be looking at victimisation.

Ffs, Unite should know all of this. They're your union, you pay their full time official's fucking wages, demand they start looking into this shit ffs.


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## Citizen66 (Nov 2, 2012)

sim667 said:


> So why you've decided to make snarky little comments to me when actually you're the one acting like a spoilt little cunt throwing their toys out of the pram because someone's caught up with you about something you're fully aware you've done wrong.



Piss off you fucking drip.


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## Garek (Nov 2, 2012)

sim667 said:


> I don't know why your getting arsey with me.


 
Because I am asking for advice not condescension. Because there is this little thing called capitalism and unequal power relationships. Because I would like to get some help and find a way to mitigate losing 25% of my pay.

What I don't want is some jumped up teachers pet telling me I should just roll over like some mangy cur. Because there are wider issues at play here. Like solidarity. And realising that no matter how many hours I owe them they will always owe me much more. And you. And every other godforsaken fucker out there who is has their life stolen from them with this little thing called 'work'.

That is why I am being arsey.


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## ViolentPanda (Nov 2, 2012)

Garek said:


> So the (sensible) resolutions people suggest are, in summary, arrange for the pay to be docked over a period of months rather than in one go? Also try and push ahead with Union advice?


 
I'm not sure whether it's a tactic that'll still work, but I got a colleague off of what was basically a bullying attack where HR were "interpreting" her T & Cs and attempting to grab back three days of holiday by requesting that a) repayment be taken over a period of 3 months/1 day of pay per month, and (more importantly, IMO) b) that a letter of protest from my colleague w/r/t the "disciplinary proceedings" be placed in her personnel file. It was dropped because both me and the HR maggot knew the disciplinary was motivated by his own vindictiveness and poor job performance, and that several other workers who'd been mistakenly given 23 days of annual leave instead of 20 hadn't been similarly strong-armed for a refund.


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## cesare (Nov 2, 2012)

I'd be bloody insisting they went back through *everyone's* records or justify why they've carried out this exercise for you alone - and in the absence of any better information so far (because they've done all this without consultation) it seems because of the timing that they may be victimising you for employee representation together with challenging casual discrimination in the workplace. That's what I'd be doing if I was your union rep.


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## Garek (Nov 2, 2012)

I think I am going to ask for a justification in writing, asking them explain their calculations and ask them to put there proposed solutions in writing.


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## cesare (Nov 2, 2012)

Post about it on P&P, Garek. There's plenty of union people there, including some full timers, who could be helpful.


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## Garek (Nov 2, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> I'm not sure whether it's a tactic that'll still work, but I got a colleague off of what was basically a bullying attack where HR were "interpreting" her T & Cs and attempting to grab back three days of holiday by requesting that a) repayment be taken over a period of 3 months/1 day of pay per month, and (more importantly, IMO) b) that a letter of protest from my colleague w/r/t the "disciplinary proceedings" be placed in her personnel file. It was dropped because both me and the HR maggot knew the disciplinary was motivated by his own vindictiveness and poor job performance, and that several other workers who'd been mistakenly given 23 days of annual leave instead of 20 hadn't been similarly strong-armed for a refund.


 
Ok, cool, see I am really hesitant to get into negotiations at this stage as it feels too early to capitulate.


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## Lemon Eddy (Nov 2, 2012)

Garek said:


> I think I am going to ask for a justification in writing, asking them explain their calculations and ask them to put there proposed solutions in writing.


 
Out of interest, what size of team do you work in, and do other team members have similarly "flexible" timekeeping to yourself?


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## Citizen66 (Nov 2, 2012)

You might want to contact your branch rather than go through your rep. The problem with reps is sometimes they're too close (working for the company also) so don't want to rock the boat. Demand representation that is unconnected from the company. And someone who has a track record of actually being decent at what they do.


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## Garek (Nov 2, 2012)

Citizen66 said:


> You might want to contact your branch rather than go through your rep. The problem with reps is sometimes they're too close (working for the company also) so don't want to rock the boat. Demand representation that is unconnected from the company. And someone who has a track record of actually being decent at what they do.


 
I am a lone member in a non-unionised workplace  having to do everything by phone.


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## sim667 (Nov 2, 2012)

Garek said:


> Because I am asking for advice not condescension. Because there is this little thing called capitalism and unequal power relationships. Because I would like to get some help and find a way to mitigate losing 25% of my pay.
> 
> What I don't want is some jumped up teachers pet telling me I should just roll over like some mangy cur. Because there are wider issues at play here. Like solidarity. And realising that no matter how many I owe them they will always owe me much more. And you. And every other godforsaken fucker out there who is has their life stolen from them with this little called 'work'.
> 
> That is why I am being arsey.



I wasn't being condescending, your the one who made a comment suggesting that I earn so much 6 days would be a problem to me, of course it would, £250 is what I lose which be a quarter of my monthly take home, when you only earn 12k a year that's a big chunk. All I said is that I thought they were entitled to ask for the money back, sparking you to insinuate I'm on a fucking 50k take home or something. Discuss repayment plans with them by all means, but don't try and wriggle out of paying anything, which is not what I suggested you were trying to, apologies if it came across that way, that's not how it was intended.

If someone could put citizen66 back on his leash that would be appreciated too 

Edit: I'd agree with asking them if they've looked through other people's records too, if not have they gone through the proper procedure to do just yours because of them noticing your timekeeping, as I'd have thought they'd have to talk to you first. In addition you should probably write down all the contact you make, if this has come just after a grievance, could they be looking to make your life difficult for a reason? My current employer were awful for forcing people out of jobs until we had a regime change a couple of years ago


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## Garek (Nov 2, 2012)

Lemon Eddy said:


> Out of interest, what size of team do you work in, and do other team members have similarly "flexible" timekeeping to yourself?


 
Contracted hours are 9:30 to 5:30. Everyone makes up there own. I am on 9:30 to 4:30, no lunch, two statutory 15 minute breaks combined into a paid lunch. 

I work in a team of one. Company size about 50. I manage my own day so my timekeeping has no impact on anyone else.


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## ViolentPanda (Nov 2, 2012)

Garek said:


> Because I am asking for advice not condescension. Because there is this little thing called capitalism and unequal power relationships. Because I would like to get some help and find a way to mitigate losing 25% of my pay.
> 
> What I don't want is some jumped up teachers pet telling me I should just roll over like some mangy cur. Because there are wider issues at play here. Like solidarity. And realising that no matter how many hours I owe them they will always owe me much more. And you. And every other godforsaken fucker out there who is has their life stolen from them with this little thing called 'work'.
> 
> That is why I am being arsey.


 
Quite rightly too. They made the error of not deducting these amounts of lost time on a month-by-month basis (which would have been fair, if your and their figures for your lateness roughly matched), but to decide after nearly a year, seemingly arbitrarily (but, as you claim, because you call people on what are basically transgressions of most employers' T & Cs with regard to "hate speech") to roll-up the lost time into a lump and then deduct it as a lump from your monthly salary isn't on. If there's no definitive policy in your T & Cs for employees making up lost time either as it occurs or month-by-month, then that's not your problem, it's theirs, and springing an arbitrary clawback on you that isn't mandated by their T & Cs is a matter for your union, because they shouldn't be even thinking of allowing your employers to establish a precedent.

Sorry, hate bosses, and hate lazy union reps almost as much.


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## Citizen66 (Nov 2, 2012)

Garek said:


> I am a lone member in a non-unionised workplace  having to do everything by phone.



Contact your branch and tell them you're not happy with the support you're receiving. If they try and fob you off, contact head office and tell them you're not happy with the support you're receiving from your branch.


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## ViolentPanda (Nov 2, 2012)

sim667 said:


> I wasn't being condescending, your the one who made a comment suggesting that I earn so much 6 days would be a problem to me, of course it would, £250 is what I lose which be a quarter of my monthly take home, when you only earn 12k a year that's a big chunk. All I said is that I thought they were entitled to ask for the money back, sparking you to insinuate I'm on a fucking 50k take home or something. Discuss repayment plans with them by all means, but don't try and wriggle out of paying anything, which is not what I suggested you were trying to, apologies if it came across that way, that's not how it was intended.
> 
> If someone could put citizen66 back on his leash that would be appreciated too


 
TBF, it's not really about "wriggling out". Companies should realise that they can't impose arbitrary punishments on their employees without taking into account the employee's T & Cs, ability to pay etc.
If I were the OPs union rep, I'd be wanting to know "why now? Why not, as most employers have always done, on a weekly or monthly basis?".
By all means hold employees to their T & Cs, but they shouldn't have to submit to arbitrary discipline mandated by someone who already has issues against you, not for the sake of employees only, but because I've seen a few companies take big hits at tribunal for thinking they can act outside of T & Cs at a whim.


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## ViolentPanda (Nov 2, 2012)

cesare said:


> I'd be bloody insisting they went back through *everyone's* records or justify why they've carried out this exercise for you alone - and in the absence of any better information so far (because they've done all this without consultation) it seems because of the timing that they may be victimising you for employee representation together with challenging casual discrimination in the workplace. That's what I'd be doing if I was your union rep.


 
Absolutely. It's not as if victimising people for employee representation is something new to tribunals - it's been around as long as they have, sadly.


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## Garek (Nov 2, 2012)

Right. So. I'm getting lost. What should I be doing right now?


Whacking Unite over the head with a mighty stick
Ask for things in writing - yay or nay?
Ask for timesheets going back three years (nuclear option) nope


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## ViolentPanda (Nov 2, 2012)

Garek said:


> I think I am going to ask for a justification in writing, asking them explain their calculations and ask them to put there proposed solutions in writing.


 
Get copies of your time cards/a print-out (depending on what system your employer uses) in case the originals "go missing".

Yes, it does sound paranoid, but suddenly-missing documentation s an old trick played by the bosses.


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## Garek (Nov 2, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Get copies of your time cards/a print-out (depending on what system your employer uses) in case the originals "go missing".
> 
> Yes, it does sound paranoid, but suddenly-missing documentation s an old trick played by the bosses.


 
Got that. First thing I asked for was my evidence.


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## Lemon Eddy (Nov 2, 2012)

Garek said:


> Contracted hours are 9:30 to 5:30. Everyone makes up there own. I am on 9:30 to 4:30, no lunch, two statutory 15 minute breaks combined into a paid lunch.
> 
> I work in a team of one. Company size about 50. I manage my own day so my timekeeping has no impact on anyone else.


 
When were you first pulled up for poor timekeeping, and what was the outcome?  Are any of the other people you interact with running below contracted hours?

You're going to have an uphill struggle winning this one, but there's a few options, depending on what they've done before, and how other people are treated:

1)  Implied contractual terms.   If a company allows people (preferably more than just you) to work hours based upon the actual jobs to be done, and this has been going on for a while, then there's the angle of an established implied contractual term:

https://www.gov.uk/employment-contracts-and-conditions/contract-terms

The terms initially written in a contract often change (salary can go up, job duties change, etc) so just because the contracted hours are whatever doesn't mean they could be said to have been changed.

2)  Discriminatory treatment.  If other people have similar deficits in hours worked but are not being treated in the same way, then you can make a good argument that you're being singled out for your earlier whistleblowing

To be honest though, I reckon you'll need a lot of evidence to pull those off.  I'd make an offer to work extra hours to make up for it,over a 6 month period.


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## sim667 (Nov 2, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> I'd be wanting to know "why now? Why not, as most employers have always done, on a weekly or monthly basis?".


 
Yeah thats what I said in the edit in the last post I made....... To my mind it would 'suspicious' to say the least with this popping up just after a greivance. Also looking into how they've been recording the lateness (this might have been mentioned, but I was a little pissed off and skipped a bit of the thread), but unless they're time clocking garek they dont really have a proper record, especially if its done one a 'oh so&so was late again' mention in passing...... But surely regardless they need to discuss it with the individual concerned *before* trying to recover the costs.

And as far as the unions go you might be a bit stuck there being the only 1...... there's loads of us in the union at my place, and they still did fuck all to help during my redundancy hearing, just sat in 'taking notes' (i swear they were marking work )


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## cesare (Nov 2, 2012)

Garek said:


> Right. So. I'm getting lost. What should I be doing right now?
> 
> 
> Whacking Unite over the head with a might stick
> ...


Try number one first, along the lines of my phrasing in #47 but don't mention you've had any advice. It's best to do it via Unite if you can because they'd act as a buffer with your employer and can take it up on your behalf. Unite won't even have to stir themselves much, often non-unionised workplaces are terrified of unions and they might back down at first sign of Unite intervening.


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## kabbes (Nov 2, 2012)

Looking strictly at the practicalities, I'd say that your first problem is that they hold all the payment cards, i.e. you are relying on them to pay you your salary, and if they want to dock a week then they can.  Sure, you can try to recover that week later but you are still short of funds in the meantime.

As such, your priority should be to make sure they don't attempt to take it at all at least this side of Christmas.  I think you need to be on to accounts, HR, whomever you can to make sure they don't unilaterally decide to dock it and make you chase to get it back.


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## ViolentPanda (Nov 2, 2012)

Garek said:


> Right. So. I'm getting lost. What should I be doing right now?
> 
> 
> Whacking Unite over the head with a might stick
> ...


 
*Always* get everything in writing. When that HR bod with the greasy smile says "let's keep this informal" what they actually mean is "I don't want to commit anything to paper because I'm going to bullshit you into doing what I want, *and* I'll have complete deniabiity if it goes pear-shaped".
If they're reclaiming lost time from the last ten months, then ask for at least a year of timesheets - this *may* allow you/your rep to point out other instances (say where you stayed 10-15 minutes longer and were never paid for the extra time) that had led you to assume time-keeping was a "give and take" arrangement on an _ad hoc_ basis.


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## Garek (Nov 2, 2012)

The evil!


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## sim667 (Nov 2, 2012)

Personally Id be:
1. Asking for time cards
2. Asking whether this has been done with other members of staff.
3. Copies of the records where they've had previous meetings about this with you before.


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## ViolentPanda (Nov 2, 2012)

Garek said:


> Got that. First thing I asked for was my evidence.


 
Good. Smart move.


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## kabbes (Nov 2, 2012)

I also remember being told by our employment lawyer that your working hours become whatever you work, if you do it for long enough.  Unfortunately, I can't remember what "long enough" means.  But if you have done 9:30 to 4:30 without lunch every day for "long enough" without any objections, it's too late for them to retrospectively object now.


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## ViolentPanda (Nov 2, 2012)

kabbes said:


> Looking strictly at the practicalities, I'd say that your first problem is that they hold all the payment cards, i.e. you are relying on them to pay you your salary, and if they want to dock a week then they can. Sure, you can try to recover that week later but you are still short of funds in the meantime.
> 
> As such, your priority should be to make sure they don't attempt to take it at all at least this side of Christmas. I think you need to be on to accounts, HR, whomever you can to make sure they don't unilaterally decide to dock it and make you chase to get it back.


 
All good advice. They've already seemingly acted arbitrarily, so there's no reason that they wouldn't again.


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## Garek (Nov 2, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> If they're reclaiming lost time from the last ten months, then ask for at least a year of timesheets - this *may* allow you/your rep to point out other instances (say where you stayed 10-15 minutes longer and were never paid for the extra time) that had led you to assume time-keeping was a "give and take" arrangement on an _ad hoc_ basis.


 
We definitely do _ad hoc_. Which is why we have the monthly sort out. Hours are monitored by both the person in HR and the GM. Before we get paid all hours are gone through and your informed if you are out. You then make it back. Not a problem when it is month by month as it just the odd hour here and there.


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## Garek (Nov 2, 2012)

kabbes said:


> I also remember being told by our employment lawyer that your working hours become whatever you work, if you do it for long enough. Unfortunately, I can't remember what "long enough" means. But if you have done 9:30 to 4:30 without lunch every day for "long enough" without any objections, it's too late for them to retrospectively object now.


 
Our hours are what ever we have entered in to the scanner which is a good thing.


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## ViolentPanda (Nov 2, 2012)

sim667 said:


> 3. Copies of the records where they've had previous meetings about this with you before.


 
*OR* where such a policy as they're enacting was discussed/agreed among the employers, if it isn't in the T & Cs.


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## Garek (Nov 2, 2012)

sim667 said:


> 3. Copies of the records where they've had previous meetings about this with you before.


 
The thing in my favour here is they have all been chats. So they haven't even used the first run on the disciplinary ladder.


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## Citizen66 (Nov 2, 2012)

cesare said:


> Try number one first, along the lines of my phrasing in #47 but don't mention you've had any advice. It's best to do it via Unite if you can because they'd act as a buffer with your employer and can take it up on your behalf. Unite won't even have to stir themselves much, often non-unionised workplaces are terrified of unions and they might back down at first sign of Unite intervening.



This. As soon as unite turn up (if they can be arsed) and start asking questions about procedures etc it might get a few people sweating.


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## ViolentPanda (Nov 2, 2012)

Garek said:


> We definitely do _ad hoc_. Which is why we have the monthly sort out. Hours are monitored by both the person in HR and the GM. Before we get paid all hours are gone through and your informed if you are out. You then make it back. Not a problem when it is month by month as it just the odd hour here and there.


 
Then I really can't see, if the above is the case, how they can suddenly claim to have overpaid you. If your timekeeping has already gone through the system once without quibble, then *they* have been in error, not you, and the HR gremlin and the general manager should be the ones being disciplined, because they let this state of affairs (if it actually exists and isn't a fiction that's been created so that the bosses can bully you) develop.
A decent union rep should be able to kick them so hard for this that their bollocks rattle when they breathe.


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## Lemon Eddy (Nov 2, 2012)

kabbes said:


> I also remember being told by our employment lawyer that your working hours become whatever you work, if you do it for long enough.


 
Correct - implied contractual term established through custom or habit.


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## ViolentPanda (Nov 2, 2012)

Garek said:


> The thing in my favour here is they have all been chats. So they haven't even used the first run on the disciplinary ladder.


 
Never trust a gremlin who likes to keep everything on an informal basis. They're usually misanthropists.


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## Lemon Eddy (Nov 2, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Then I really can't see, if the above is the case, how they can suddenly claim to have overpaid you. If your timekeeping has already gone through the system once without quibble, then *they* have been in error, not you


 
Kind of depends.  Garek mentioned "There were concerns raised about my timekeeping."  Much will depend on just what was said or done at the time, and what responses/reassurances he gave.


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## Garek (Nov 2, 2012)

cesare said:


> Try number one first, along the lines of my phrasing in #47 but don't mention you've had any advice. It's best to do it via Unite if you can because they'd act as a buffer with your employer and can take it up on your behalf. Unite won't even have to stir themselves much, often non-unionised workplaces are terrified of unions and they might back down at first sign of Unite intervening.


 
Ok I will write up this weekend. And what do I do to get Unite involved? Send them the letter? Sorry, bit confused on what you mean by "via Unite".


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## kabbes (Nov 2, 2012)

She, I think?


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## Garek (Nov 2, 2012)

.


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## cesare (Nov 2, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Then I really can't see, if the above is the case, how they can suddenly claim to have overpaid you. If your timekeeping has already gone through the system once without quibble, then *they* have been in error, not you, and the HR gremlin and the general manager should be the ones being disciplined, because they let this state of affairs (if it actually exists and isn't a fiction that's been created so that the bosses can bully you) develop.
> A decent union rep should be able to kick them so hard for this that their bollocks rattle when they breathe.


Even if it was their error, they can still claim it was an overpayment and try and recoup it.  They'd have difficulty explaining why him, and why now though.

There's also the issue of estoppel to throw into the ring but that's a double edged sword to be kept back for now.


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## Garek (Nov 2, 2012)

cesare said:


> There's also the issue of *estoppel* to throw into the ring but that's a double edged sword to be kept back for now.


 
There's going to be cake!?


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## ViolentPanda (Nov 2, 2012)

Lemon Eddy said:


> Kind of depends. Garek mentioned "There were concerns raised about my timekeeping." Much will depend on just what was said or done at the time, and what responses/reassurances he gave.


 
Sounds like the HR gremlin kept it informal, so unless Garek has signed off a minute or minutes of these conversations, the employers have made a rod for their own backs, because they can't prove anything.


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## cesare (Nov 2, 2012)

Garek said:


> Ok I will write up this weekend. And what do I do to get Unite involved? Send them the letter? Sorry, bit confused on what you mean by "via Unite".


Email Unite with it and ask them for their representation (as in, that's what you've been paying them subs for, for however long). You could always draft something yourself and post it here to get some tips on it before you send it.


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## Garek (Nov 2, 2012)

cesare said:


> Email Unite with it and ask them for their representation (as in, that's what you've been paying them subs for, for however long). You could always draft something yourself and post it here to get some tips on it before you send it.


 
Ah ok, cool, cheers. Will do.


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## ViolentPanda (Nov 2, 2012)

cesare said:


> Even if it was their error, they can still claim it was an overpayment and try and recoup it. They'd have difficulty explaining why him, and why now though.


 
They'd be obliged to seek terms with Garek, rather than imposing them.



> There's also the issue of estoppel to throw into the ring but that's a double edged sword to be kept back for now.


 
My younger brother nearly had a nervous breakdown explaining estoppel to me.


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## cesare (Nov 2, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> They'd be obliged to seek terms with Garek, rather than imposing them.


Aye, important to point out the lack of consultation.



ViolentPanda said:


> My younger brother nearly had a nervous breakdown explaining estoppel to me.


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## temper_tantrum (Nov 2, 2012)

Very important to note at this point that this firm has very few written policies and procedures, the person who deals with HR is an untrained, unpleasant and rather thick troglodyte, and the managers put up with deeply unprofessional behaviour all over the shop if it gets them a quiet life. Overt homophobia and other prejudice has always gone unchallenged and they have absolutely no idea of workers' rights, the law and so forth.
This is positive - in that they probably haven't followed the procedures they should have done - but also negative - because there's little chance of getting a by-the-book resolution.


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## ddraig (Nov 2, 2012)

sim667 said:


> I don't know why your getting arsey with me. A you've said you've had problems with lateness, B. you've said you're employers calculations are accurate (but you're goin to check them), C. The timing isn't great obviously just before Xmas, but as far as I'm aware the employer is within their rights to take the money back, in all fairness it could be a lot worse considering you've not kept up your part from your contractual agreement. I agree with tits that your best option is try and agree a repayment plan.
> 
> So why you've decided to make snarky little comments to me when actually you're the one acting like a spoilt little cunt throwing their toys out of the pram because someone's caught up with you about something you're fully aware you've done wrong.


 you are siding with the employer, stop it, simple


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## Nanker Phelge (Nov 2, 2012)

cesare said:


> You must know some nice employers, Nanker. Many employers would be after time owed like a rat up an aqueduct.


 
I tend to work for corporates who's HR do everything by the book....which can be fucking frustrating when you just wanna ditch off some waste of space arsehole....

...I tend to use timekeeping as a final nail in the coffin for people who are not generally not performing and already have 2 strikes against them.

If my team are getting their work done half hour here and there makes no odds, and I don't really chase them on it.

My line managers have always treated me likewise.


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## Citizen66 (Nov 2, 2012)

temper_tantrum said:


> Very important to note at this point that this firm has very few written policies and procedures, the person who deals with HR is an untrained, unpleasant and rather thick troglodyte, and the managers put up with deeply unprofessional behaviour all over the shop if it gets them a quiet life. Overt homophobia and other prejudice has always gone unchallenged and they have absolutely no idea of workers' rights, the law and so forth.
> This is positive - in that they probably haven't followed the procedures they should have done - but also negative - because there's little chance of getting a by-the-book resolution.



If the union does what it's supposed to and checks whether the company has kept its own pants clean in terms of following things to the letter of recognised procedures - which they haven't - then this provides Garek with a huge amount of bargaining power. Unite can't just sit there and tell him to negotiate a repayment plan. That isn't good enough. They need to get the big guns out and when it becomes apparent that the company haven't followed things by the book and there's actually real world implications to that the company will doubtlessly begin to look upon his predicament far more leniently. Then it's up to Garek whether he wants to take it further (regarding victimisation) or leave it at that.


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## Pingu (Nov 2, 2012)

this thread has actually been useful for me... Promissory estoppel eh... thats going to come in well handy....


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## Smangus (Nov 2, 2012)

Check their calcs (only this, not more than the time span they are claiming back, you may end up owing more)
If inaccurate point this out and ask for recalculation.
Ask for any management records kept of instances where your timekeeping was mentioned/discussed at all. If there are no records then ask why these were not kept and what their policy is on this.
Review any agreements on modified behaviour that you made after previous discussions to see if there were any misunderstandings or not, point out instances where you have changed to take into account any agreements made. 
Ask why such a debit was allowed to build up over time without it being brought to your attention previously. Explain that you feel that this is unreasonable behaviour by the company to let such a debit build up without your knowledge and that when discussions were held previously you should hav been informed then. 
Ask to see any company guidance that covers such matter (misconduct rules etc) and compare their handling of the situation with it. Point out any inconsistencies that are apparent.
Estoppal etc is complicated and best left to experts to argue, keep this discussion in simple terms if at all possible.
If at the end of all this you have to accept that you owe some time back plead hardship and say you want to pay them the money back but can only afford to pay back £x per month. Point out that you are aware of your responsibilities as an employee but the employer has a duty to pay the correct wages owing and so you have received the money in good faith and spent it in good faith.
Do all of this in writing and ask for written reponses.
CC your Unite rep and his/her branch sec into all of this and say that you are concerned at having to make you're own representations in such a time of stress and difficulty
Hope this helps its what i'd do, good luck.


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## Citizen66 (Nov 2, 2012)

Most important rule: never plead guilty to ANYTHING. It's up to the company to hold a disciplinary to find you guilty. If you admit to stuff then you're digging a massive hole for yourself which may be hard to undo at a later juncture.


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## cesare (Nov 2, 2012)

Pingu said:


> this thread has actually been useful for me... Promissory estoppel eh... thats going to come in well handy....


Yes. Here's something that sets it out quite simply: http://www.pcs.org.uk/en/resources/...mpsons_solicitors/pay/salary_overpayments.cfm


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## Pingu (Nov 2, 2012)

mine is nothing to do with docking of pay but has to do with a party promising to not do  something in return for me not doing something and then them deciding to do it 18 months later anyhow (probably hoping i had lost the emails).. for the sake of convienience lets say that it involves certain promises made during the negotiation of a compromise agreement.

i guess it also falls under Estoppel by convention but some of the negotiation emails incuded implied elements based upon them making certain promises about what they meant by certain terms and thus defined my understanding of those terms as they appeared in the compromise agreement..

*i love online backups*


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## cesare (Nov 2, 2012)

Pingu said:


> mine is nothing to do with docking of pay but has to do with a party promising to not do something in return for me not doing something and then them deciding to do it 18 months later anyhow (probably hoping i had lost the emails).. for the sake of convienience lets say that it involves certain promises made during the negotiation of a compromise agreement.
> 
> i guess it also falls under Estoppel by convention but some of the negotiation emails incuded implied elements based upon them making certain promises about what they meant by certain terms and thus defined my understanding of those terms as they appeared in the compromise agreement..
> 
> *i love online backups*


Did the CA negotiation actually result in a CA and was it executed, consideration paid etc?


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## Manter (Nov 2, 2012)

Garek said:


> So the (sensible) resolutions people suggest are, in summary, arrange for the pay to be docked over a period of months rather than in one go? Also try and push ahead with Union advice?


If you owe it they should offer phased docking- that is in the reasonableness clause. Also, not 100% sure, but not sure they can dock more per time period than would leave you with the min wage. Sorry, tired, so badly expressed.... Hope that makes sense!


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## Citizen66 (Nov 2, 2012)

Have they previously mentioned your timekeeping to you? If they have, but didn't dock wages at the time, then this could surely be argued that they're punishing you retrospectively for a matter you considered settled?


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## Pingu (Nov 2, 2012)

cesare said:


> Did the CA negotiation actually result in a CA and was it executed, consideration paid etc?


 yep.


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## ddraig (Nov 2, 2012)

then you've signed your rights away init


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## Pingu (Nov 3, 2012)

only in so far as i have agrred not to take them to a tribunal (plus some other bits). however the terms did have some bits in it designed to protect me from something that they are now trying to do. the money side isnt an issue, got a decent sum fom them

the estopppel thing may save me legal fees involved in fighting it.


may not... but will find out relatively quickly


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## ddraig (Nov 3, 2012)

cwl
good luck


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## alfajobrob (Nov 3, 2012)

.


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## 1927 (Nov 3, 2012)

Garek said:


> Because I am asking for advice not condescension. Because there is this little thing called capitalism and unequal power relationships. Because I would like to get some help and find a way to mitigate losing 25% of my pay.
> 
> What I don't want is some jumped up teachers pet telling me I should just roll over like some mangy cur. Because there are wider issues at play here. Like solidarity. And realising that no matter how many hours I owe them they will always owe me much more. And you. And every other godforsaken fucker out there who is has their life stolen from them with this little thing called 'work'.
> 
> That is why I am being arsey.


 
If you feel that work is robbing you of half of your life, easy solution, quit.

Then see how much of your life is stolen off you cos you dont have enough money to do stuff!


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## Garek (Nov 5, 2012)

Update: Haven't yet written Union letter as I didn't want to think of work at the weekend and also I prefer to do it on company time. 

However things might be shifting in my favour already. I talked to my line manager as he wants me to work Sundays during the Christmas season. I am the only person who does the day to day running of my section and it takes a lot of money in (£250k last Christmas season). What I have done before is worked Sundays for extra holiday rather than money and so ended up with over 6 weeks holiday last year. Of course I can't do that at the moment as I don't know whether they will just use any Sundays I work to reduce the figure they have magicked up. I also mentioned how demotivating this all was and how I don't feel I am going to be able to work as quickly and efficiently during the Christmas rush whilst all this stress and uncertainty was hanging over me. 

He's now going to talk to the GM, see what the situation is and what the terms they are seeking are. I think he is also going to try and take this out of the HR person's hands. 

I will draft a letter to the union once things are clearer as the GM was under the impression the the time was only going back to July not January.


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## cesare (Nov 5, 2012)

The other thing that you might want to do, Garek, is to try and get Unite to certify you for the purposes of accompaniment to grievances etc. It would certainly make it clearer in future that you were being targeted for TU activities if it crops up again.


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## Garek (Nov 8, 2012)

Ok, so HR person has been removed from the equation and the deal on the table is the slate will be wiped cleaned for two Sundays. Just need to work out how good a deal that is  in some ways it is a rather good deal, a clean simple resolution. And I would be working Sunday anyways as it is Christmas (retail job).

Of course it doesn't resolve the matter of it being rather arbitrary.


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## cesare (Nov 8, 2012)

Garek said:


> Ok, so HR person has been removed from the equation and the deal on the table is the slate will be wiped cleaned for two Sundays. Just need to work out how good a deal that is  in some ways it is a rather good deal, a clean simple resolution. And I would be working Sunday anyways as it is Christmas (retail job).
> 
> Of course it doesn't resolve the matter of it being rather arbitrary.


If you're happy with that, it does sound quite neat. Plus the advantage of sorting it out direct with your boss. Even if you go with it, I'd still suggest strengthening your position union-wise for the future though.


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## Garek (Nov 8, 2012)

cesare said:


> If you're happy with that, it does sound quite neat. Plus the advantage of sorting it out direct with your boss. Even if you go with it, I'd still suggest strengthening your position union-wise for the future though.


 
I think I could be happy with it. I have just worked out that I could take this resolution and still end up with 6 days extra holiday next year. Not as good as mine 9 last year but still pretty good and better than most so not to be sniffed at. And I have been taking the piss this year with knocking off early on a Friday. 

He also informed that he spent an hour trying to work it all out. Considering what his hourly rate likely breaks down to that must have been an expensive hour. 

I didn't accept straight away but the more I think about the more I think it is a good resolution. I'll continue to mull it over for another day or so.


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## cesare (Nov 8, 2012)

Good that he spent some time actually trying to work it out for himself, also that he kicked HR into touch in favour of doing it personally.


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## Citizen66 (Nov 8, 2012)

I think it's a good deal. It's a good deal for him as well though because of how much he could lose if all this fucks up the golden egg of Christmas but I guess he can't be seen to totally let you off the hook but neither does he want to lose all that profit.


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## Garek (Nov 8, 2012)

Citizen66 said:


> I think it's a good deal. It's a good deal for him as well though because of how much he could lose if all this fucks up the golden egg of Christmas but I guess he can't be seen to totally let you off the hook but neither does he want to lose all that profit.


 
Yes, I agree. I get a slap on the wrist for my timekeeping, they use two of my Sundays to make up the time, my slate is wiped clean, they get me for six days a week during Christmas and me making sure things are done proper. 

It's a rather diplomatic solution. Faces saved all round. No escalation. 

I look forward greatly to the moment when the HR person find out. I suspect there will be a tantrum.


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## ViolentPanda (Nov 8, 2012)

Garek said:


> Ok, so HR person has been removed from the equation and the deal on the table is the slate will be wiped cleaned for two Sundays. Just need to work out how good a deal that is  in some ways it is a rather good deal, a clean simple resolution. And I would be working Sunday anyways as it is Christmas (retail job).
> 
> Of course it doesn't resolve the matter of it being rather arbitrary.


 
Taking sunday as "double bubble" then two sundays would be equivalent to 32-36 hours of labour, or at time-and-a-half, 24-27 hours of labour. If that sounds fair to you, then go for it, as you'll only be putting in 16-18 hours labour!


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## Garek (Nov 8, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Taking sunday as "double bubble" then two sundays would be equivalent to 32-36 hours of labour, or at time-and-a-half, 24-27 hours of labour. If that sounds fair to you, then go for it, as you'll only be putting in 16-18 hours labour!


 
Sundays are time and half or 1.5 days holiday. We do 7 hour days so it will be 14 hours of labour. Not bad considering this stared at "You owe me* 42 hours or I dock you pay".

EDIT: Actually I think Sundays are 10:00 to 4:30 so even better.


*Emphasis on the personalisation. She loves to publicly try and humiliate people with regards to how many hours they may or may not owe (which backfires often as she has trouble adding up).


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## ViolentPanda (Nov 8, 2012)

Garek said:


> Sundays are time and half or 1.5 days holiday. We do 7 hour days so it will be 14 hours of labour. Not bad considering this stared at "You owe me* 42 hours or I dock you pay".
> 
> EDIT: Actually I think Sundays are 10:00 to 4:30 so even better.
> 
> ...


 
Tough shit on her. She shouldn't be treating peoples' employment hours as a way to get kicks/increase blood-flow to her clit.


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## TitanSound (Nov 8, 2012)

I say accept it then once it's all confirmed, in writing, start a grievance against HR for being numpties. Just make sure you turn up on time


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## equationgirl (Nov 8, 2012)

Garek said:


> Sundays are time and half or 1.5 days holiday. We do 7 hour days so it will be 14 hours of labour. Not bad considering this stared at "You owe me* 42 hours or I dock you pay".
> 
> EDIT: Actually I think Sundays are 10:00 to 4:30 so even better.
> 
> ...


See, it's all very well throwing around accusations about timekeeping, but a) get the facts straight first b) make sure the hours add up correctly and c) make damned sure you don't motivate staff so they only work contracted hours. It's so simple yet HR always seem to screw things up.

I'm glad you got this sorted out Garek, I hope you've got notes and emails of the conversations seeing as they've been targeting you - I wouldn't put it past them to have another pop at you after the Christmas period. I think you got a good deal


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