# "Buying" Essays online



## Prince Rhyus (Apr 29, 2007)

I don't know about you but when I saw http://customwriting.co.uk/ I felt like someone had kicked me very hard in the stomach.   

I would ask everyone contact DfES (http://www.dfes.gov.uk/communicate/contactus/) to tell them that this kind of stuff should be illegal if it isn't, and that sites like this, whether UK-based or abroad devalue the entire concept of education. This is just buying a way into advantage (You could say "Hey, what's new?") by driving a steamroller through one of the few methods available that can allow for a genuine meritocracy.

(The other alternative is to petition the PM at www.pm.gov.uk but I don't know how seriously that site is taken.)

What else can we do other than turning up outside their offices with placards waving?


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## Hocus Eye. (Apr 29, 2007)

> ...name the subject and we will churn out a remarkably written academic paper for you on it.



I note the words _churn out_ above.  They are being remarkably honest here!   Further down they state that they will not present you with anything plagiarised.  Honest guv its all original stuff.  But then if you choose to enter it as your own that's not their business.  Their profitable business is selling it to you in the first place.

It is difficult to know what to do about this though.  They will say it is just a way of learning how to write essays better and to be used only as a guideline.


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## Prince Rhyus (Apr 29, 2007)

There's nothing in their main pages that says anything about how these things should be used. At least the fake ID card sites - the ones you see advertised at the back of mens magazines, state that the cards are for "novelty purposes and that misuse may be illegal." Nothing about that on this one.


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## Dowie (Apr 30, 2007)

they aren't doing anything illegal - you can't regulate the writing of essays tbh..

if someone buys an essay from them what they do with it has got nothing to do with the company

I reckon the vast majority of DVD writers and blank DVDs sold buy retailer suppliers are probably used for copying movies rather than backing up data. Still it isn't illegal to sell DVD writers.


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## Dowie (Apr 30, 2007)

IIRC a press report on some of these site revealed that some university lecturers supplement their income writing essays for them - which could bring up a dilemma of a lecturer then marking an essay he/she actually wrote


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## northernhord (Apr 30, 2007)

It might not be illegal what they are doing but they are inviting cheats and lazy fuckers of all description, too much of the durty scummy marketplace in education, such things were inevitable really


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## mauvais (Apr 30, 2007)

This is why universities have plagiarism detectors. I don't know the details but I imagine it's something like every dissertation submitted to a university goes into a database and system, created by a computer science department of one or several top universities. The system can then take a candidate dissertation and see if it or bits of it have been nicked from elsewhere. The universities can do this very easily and for free because they helped compile the database.

It might be less perfect than that but I think that's pretty much what they do, amongst many other things. Therefore the dissertations included in such sites are likely to be held somewhere else too.


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## northernhord (Apr 30, 2007)

^ when i was doin me PGCE one of me lecturer mates told me that there is software now that scan through essays and find knicked bits


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## LilMissHissyFit (Apr 30, 2007)

Thats true. The uni I went to can scan in any piece of work and it will throw back who wrote it, quotes etc and all.... unless it tallies you are in the doodies


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## mauvais (Apr 30, 2007)

Comparing two given documents is piss easy. Comparing the set of all local documents (i.e. all the dissertations for a particular course) is therefore also very easy.

Beyond that I don't know, but the universities are well aware of these kind of sites and certainly aren't going to lose their reputations to them. Sites like http://www.submit.ac.uk loosely do what I describe.


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## Shippou-Sensei (Apr 30, 2007)

i know a bit about plagiarism detection as one of my lecturers was a bit of an expert and had written some  software that deals with stuff like this

the technology is  getting quite sophisticated

certianly if you have used the internet to do any of your plagiarising  you might as well just hand in a bloody glove  your guilt is that  obvious

plus  if your buying from asite like that they  probably  use a   large number of prewritten  texts    some of which your university may well know about

also  comparing  that    text  to prior  stuff you have submited  to look for  tell tale   bits and pieces


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## northernhord (Apr 30, 2007)

Me and me mates used to refer to Bristol Uni,s student IT rooms as the cut n paste suite, cos that's what a lot of people were doing insteading fully researching their essays, lazy toffee nosed fuckers


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## Hocus Eye. (Apr 30, 2007)

If a student has been stupid enough to use a source they got from googling the internet then they will be easily detected.  All a tutor or anyone wanting to check has to do is take a sentence to two from the essay and google for it.  It will then find the original source.

Sadly the emphasis placed on 'project work' in secondary schools  has the effect of making some students think that collecting information verbatim is sufficient to show research.


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## 8ball (Apr 30, 2007)

I think in the end this could be a good thing.

Educational institutions are going to have to move their focus away from absorbing and regurgitating information.


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## Hocus Eye. (Apr 30, 2007)

Absorbing and then regurgitating is not a problem.  Just replicating without first absorbing is the problem.


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## laptop (Apr 30, 2007)

Hocus Eye. said:
			
		

> All a tutor or anyone wanting to check has to do is take a sentence to two from the essay and google for it.



But not all tutors know enough about information networks to interpret the results 

Which is why universities - particularly in the US, I think - pay for dedicated services - the one with the strongest brand image is www.turnitin.com

This raises interesting questions. It hoovers up one of my websites - one which I imagine is much plaigarised by media and law students - once a month. This is an illegal copy. It also holds copies of all the essays submitted - which starts to get around the problem of plaigarism of stuff not posted on the web, but is also an illegal copying of said essays. 

I'm trying to think of a way of suing turnitin for a share of its income, without appearing to condone cheating by rich bastard students


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## xenon (Apr 30, 2007)

Dowie said:
			
		

> IIRC a press report on some of these site revealed that some university lecturers supplement their income writing essays for them - which could bring up a dilemma of a lecturer then marking an essay he/she actually wrote



LOL

That would be rather a conflict of interest.


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## xenon (Apr 30, 2007)

With out wanting to sound too po faced. If you're in any way interested in your subject, surely you'd want to write your own dissatation?

Allbeit mine wasn't a top class piece of work. I did actually enjoy researching and writing it. in hinesight could have made a better job of it but that's maturity for you.


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## fractured (Apr 30, 2007)

It's kind of sad that people have to wait for something to be illegal for them not do it.  It's a way of inviting the idea of legislating common sense.  I can't imagine having someone write a paper for me.  It destroys the idea of learning.


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## absinthe pirate (Apr 30, 2007)

Even in my moments at 3am in the morning, disparing that my research at the beginning of term wasn't as "extensive" as i thought, my essay not as indepth, informed or right and my general writing style not good enough for my 1000 word short dissertation,  even at my most desperate of time, i'd feel a hundred times worse if i gave in now and cheated my way to the grade i've always dreamed of...it wouldn't be mine!


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## Prince Rhyus (Apr 30, 2007)

absinthe pirate said:
			
		

> Even in my moments at 3am in the morning, disparing that my research at the beginning of term wasn't as "extensive" as i thought, my essay not as indepth, informed or right and my general writing style not good enough for my 1000 word short dissertation,  even at my most desperate of time, i'd feel a hundred times worse if i gave in now and cheated my way to the grade i've always dreamed of...it wouldn't be mine!



Exactly.

Given what I'm currently doing now and the enjoyment I'm having, the thought that someone cheated their way to get to a similar place with the same employer would have me fuming.


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## catinthehat (May 1, 2007)

We have plagarism software but have also changed some of the assessment rules in order to cope with the increase in plagarism.  We have more unseen in class assessments but also do feedback on work which includes a sort of viva - we ask students to talk to us about what they have written and that q and a forms part of the assessment itself.

There was a check this year on UCAS applications which found that over 1000 students had actually plagarised the UCAS advice site on how to complete a personal statement (I seem to remember that the majority of the cases were in applications to med school) with students giving a story about setting their trousers on fire and becoming interested in medicine after caring for a sick grandparent - both tales were on the UCAS example of a personal statement.

The essays for sale site does not really surprise me - unis, colleges all are in the business of cutting back to bare mimimums in what they provide - for the most part if you get a good service its because the lecturer is doing it in their own time.  At our place its taken for granted that if you are going to prepare a class and any marking will be done in your own time at home.  So students will respond in kind by offering the mimimum needed to pass in many cases.    If you argue the case that learning and education is beneficial in its own sake you are thought of as a hippie lunatic - its all about the cash nexus, why study or teach anything thats not going to have a clear pay back in cash terms.  Education, education, education........


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## Prince Rhyus (May 10, 2007)

I FOI'd DfES and they had the following to say:

_The Department for Education and Skills (DfES) agree that plagiarism is a serious matter, and is not acceptable.  However, it is a matter for institutions to guide students, to ensure that their procedures for dealing with it are carried out consistently and to make clear the severity of penalties that may include expulsion.  The Department has no direct responsibility on this and many other issues relating to Higher Education, primarily because of the autonomous nature of universities.

There is little primary research on plagiarism to determine if it is getting worse.  However, DfES is aware that there is anecdotal evidence to suggest that it is becoming more common.  Academic Standards Committees are reporting increases in plagiarism and some academics have claimed it is getting worse. 

The Joint Information Systems Committee Plagiarism Advisory Service (JISCPAS) issued guidelines to all colleges and universities in a bid to provide advice and support on dealing with plagiarism.  The guidelines – “Deterring, Detecting, and Dealing with Student Plagiarism” – were written by a panel of experts and sent to senior managers and key operational staff within all Further and Higher Institutions by JISCPAS.  JISCPAS can be contacted at www.jiscpas.ac.uk .  TurnitinUK plagiarism detection software is also available through JISCPAS._

Comments on a postcard please


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## 118118 (May 10, 2007)

ha ha. i've been done for plagerism  i was a bit out of it at the time, and couldn't get my head round the concept of changing what people say in books. so i just copied out of "verbatim". honest mistake too, just didn't understand how anyone could want or indeed expect anything but changing a word here or there.
 i have no mroal problem with people who plagerize. life just isn't fair, isi it?


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## equationgirl (May 10, 2007)

How can copying large chunks out of textbooks probably set by your lecturer be termed 'an honest mistake'?

You cheated. And you meant to.


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## 118118 (May 10, 2007)

no i didn't


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## equationgirl (May 10, 2007)

118118 said:
			
		

> ha ha. i've been done for plagerism  i was a bit out of it at the time, and couldn't get my head round the concept of changing what people say in books. so i just copied out of "verbatim".



Yes you did, you cheated. You plagarised.

And you were probably caught because whoever marked your essay was familiar with the textbook.


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## Bob_the_lost (May 10, 2007)

Some people are naturally stupid and don't read the plagarism guidelines your univeristy gives you. Plagarism really does my head in. I work hard to get decent grades, someone who doesn't put the work in, doesn't understand the topic and cheats to get the same mark devalues my work and makes the grade pointless.


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## 118118 (May 10, 2007)

bob_the_lost: life isn't fair, honestly. or we'd all me making the same as each other. what difference does it make if you earn x more than me thru 'talent' or "cheating".

whatever you say equationgirl. i was 6 months out of a mental hospital and thought everyone had the ability to read minds. i also find it quite shocking that you don't believe me but my tutors did:


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## equationgirl (May 10, 2007)

Don't believe you about what? You admitted plagarising. Which is cheating.

Maybe your tutors have access to more information about you than I do, after all, we're two posters on the internet who've never met. I'm going on what you've posted, and when someone says 'haha ha I've plagarised', I'm not exactly going to feel sympathetic towards them, not matter what their reasons, if they're treating it like one big joke.

I worked damn hard for my degree without cheating.


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## Bob_the_lost (May 10, 2007)

118118 said:
			
		

> bob_the_lost: life isn't fair, honestly. or we'd all me making the same as each other. what difference does it make if you earn x more than me thru 'talent' or "cheating".


Translation: Life isn't fair, so i'm going to fuck you over.

What i resent is that some little shit may get a job instead of me because they cheated and came accross better in the interview. 

Then there's the other occasion i've had plagarism pop up, group projects. I have no desire to fail a course because two of the group are too fucking lazy to do their own work and pull their weight, then at the last minute dump me in it by handing in obviously plagarised crap.


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## 118118 (May 10, 2007)

oh fuck off bob.


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## 118118 (May 10, 2007)

equationgitl: i've said far more about myself on here than to my tutors. maybe yiou don't read my posts? tbh, the tutor was kind enough to go through my work himself adding quotation marks.

"Translation: Life isn't fair, so i'm going to fuck you over." I'll say the same the next time you accept a job because of 'talent'.


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## 118118 (May 10, 2007)

Different levels of the devil's company, is that what you are saying bob. or do you see yourself as all pure and verhinal all the same?

well, that would be a matter of taste,i suppose.


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## Bob_the_lost (May 10, 2007)

118118 said:
			
		

> oh fuck off bob.


Sorry if my righteous anger offends you but simply fobbing it off with "life's not fair innit" is moral cowardice. If life isn't fair then it's our jobs to make it more so, not to use it as an excuse to fuck other people over. Education is supposed to be a fair system, in this case plagarists are the ones destroying it.

Make your bloody mind up, either i fuck off or i answer your posts. Make a choice.


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## 118118 (May 10, 2007)

i''m not fobbing you off i think we must live on different planets. like i say i don't have a huge problem with plagerism. didn't you have any thick mates at schoo?l

its not fucking you over any more than you using your intelligence is fucking me over: repsond to that!


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## 118118 (May 10, 2007)

ps: you wouldn't know moral rightousness if you bit you opn the ass.


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## Prince Rhyus (May 10, 2007)

Calm down people. I didn't intend for this post to turn into a slanging match.

Bob's point is a fair one. The education system - and the examination system are supposed to be regarded as fair and to provide a fair assessment of an individual's ability. The moment that fairness is compromised is the moment the system begins to fall apart.

This is the problem with GCSEs and A-Levels - and is becoming more of a problem with degrees. If people and institutions lose faith in these assessments, they become worthless.


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## Bob_the_lost (May 10, 2007)

118118 said:
			
		

> i''m not fobbing you off i think we must live on different planets. like i say i don't have a huge problem with plagerism. didn't you have any thick mates at schoo?l
> 
> its not fucking you over any more than you using your intelligence is fucking me over: repsond to that!


Respond to it? I flunked out of one degree because i was the thick one at the university. I wasn't top of the heap, didn't put in the work and i failed because of it. Harsh, *but fair*.

Fair does not always mean everyone gets the same.




			
				118118 said:
			
		

> ps: you wouldn't know moral rightousness if you bit you opn the ass.


Grow up, or at least plagarise some decent comebacks.


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## 118118 (May 10, 2007)

> If people and institutions lose faith in these assessments, they become worthless.


@ baby!

Nah, more seriously, if the system is inherently unfair/egalitarian etc. then not following the rules of the system is not dishonourable.

(and i cheated in all throughout my degree gcses and alevels too)


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## 118118 (May 10, 2007)

Bob_the_lost said:
			
		

> Grow up, or at least plagarise some decent comebacks.


lol at the socratic irony (?)?


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## 118118 (May 10, 2007)

ok 'one' whatever. respond to the problem i have set you, expanded upon in my reply to "the prince".


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## Bob_the_lost (May 10, 2007)

Sorry, have you stopped bitching about how the other kids are smarter, therefore you should be allowed to cheat, yet?


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## 118118 (May 10, 2007)

i'm not talking about the right to revolt or anything. just that subversion is ok in an unjust system. it helps keep us all alive. see otherwise you wouldn't be getting all don quitoe/have anything to be miserable about.


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## 118118 (May 10, 2007)

Bob_the_lost said:
			
		

> Sorry, have you stopped bitching about how the other kids are smarter, therefore you should be allowed to cheat, yet?


no not at all. i've stopped thinking that you are smarter is all.


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## Prince Rhyus (May 10, 2007)

118118 said:
			
		

> @ baby!
> 
> Nah, more seriously, if the system is inherently unfair/egalitarian etc. then not following the rules of the system is not dishonourable.
> 
> (and i cheated in all throughout my degree gcses and alevels too)



Is the system unfair? If so, how?

My problem with privatised exam boards is the conflict of interests and the plethora of qualifications that seem to have sprung up from all over the place in recent years that it is very difficult to verify what standards people are at. This is especially the case with GCSEs, A-Levels and degrees. It's become more and more difficult for employers to ascertain which ones are actually worth something and which ones are not worth the paper their printed on.


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## 118118 (May 10, 2007)

i am worth something 

nah like course the sysytem is ufair: i for one believe in egalitarianism/humanism etc. not whatever rules regulations and laws happen to best articulate the bosses' moral system.

eta: i mean i'm not here to infalte your ego/encourage you on whatever demnted mission of fairness you have pluindered from your history.


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## Ich bin ein Mod (May 10, 2007)

118118 said:
			
		

> @ baby!
> 
> Nah, more seriously, if the system is inherently unfair/egalitarian etc. then not following the rules of the system is not dishonourable.
> 
> (and i cheated in all throughout my degree gcses and alevels too)



Whoop whoop for you.

What's so unfair about the system?Those who work hard do better than those who fuck about. It's the way things should be. Whinging that cheating is ok because you aren't as good as some other people is just pathetic


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## Ich bin ein Mod (May 10, 2007)

Prince Rhyus said:
			
		

> Is the system unfair? If so, how?
> 
> My problem with privatised exam boards is the conflict of interests and the plethora of qualifications that seem to have sprung up from all over the place in recent years that it is very difficult to verify what standards people are at. This is especially the case with GCSEs, A-Levels and degrees. It's become more and more difficult for employers to ascertain which ones are actually worth something and which ones are not worth the paper their printed on.



One thing I don't envy England is their lack of a standardised national qualification system. The SQA have their aults, but you can't doubt the fairness and equality of everyone in the country sitting the same exam at the same time


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## 118118 (May 10, 2007)

Fuck off back to Engalnd where those values mean something 

what a pointless conversation: we lobviously live on different planets. e.g. i _really_ don't think that anyone over the age of about 12 get to fuck around all their lives. so what are you going on about?

you genuinely think that everyone (bar a few extreme cases) who earns more than another, works harder than that other?


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## 118118 (May 10, 2007)

that hilarious, you meantion the big E in your next post


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## Bob_the_lost (May 10, 2007)

It's not fair because 118118 didn't do well.

Amusingly it's not as stupid a complaint as it seems. Some are not well suited to exams / coursework type assesment, those of us with learning difficulties are the most obviously hampered but not the only ones. Ways to make assesment easier for those people are worth looking at, almost as worth while as ways to check if some little shit has been cheating.


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## 118118 (May 10, 2007)

your all fucking slime imo.


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## 118118 (May 10, 2007)

lol. been cheatin'

more seriously, your ad hominems are like water off a paranoiacs back etc..


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## Bob_the_lost (May 10, 2007)

118118 said:
			
		

> your all fucking slime imo.


That's right, the ones who don't cheat are slime


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## 118118 (May 10, 2007)

btw i'm doing fine mate. i hope anyway. imay still get a 2.1, which isn't that bad cing as i got around a 42 in the second year. and my school results are above reproach. and like i say i was very ill in the second year, which you "amusingly" seem to be ignoring in your dull dull dull "left-wing" tabloid rant.


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## 118118 (May 10, 2007)

yeah, cos they feed off other people's evil rather than their own. like moss or slime or something. i on the other hand am like some radioactive monster, any evil i do is cos of my molecular structure iyswim.


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## 118118 (May 10, 2007)

are you actually trying to bully me into feeling bad about having a mental illness bob


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## Prince Rhyus (May 10, 2007)

118118 said:
			
		

> you genuinely think that everyone (bar a few extreme cases) who earns more than another, works harder than that other?



That's actually a tricky one.

For example not everyone has the ability, training nor aptitude to be a heart surgeon. However, more people have the ability, training and aptitude to be cleaners. 

Yet both are vital functions within our society. (I really hate it when people look down on those who carry out essential functions that enable society to function - think of those expensive car drivers who give London bus drivers a hard time on the road.)

This comes back to "each according to their abilities and needs."

The problem is in this celebrity-obsessed world, glamour models and footballers earn far more for doing far less. It's especially the case with glamour models - perpetuated by "mens" magazines and the tabloid newspapers that send out messages to people that this is a reasonable way to make a living. I personally think that people are capable of much more positive things than stripping off for a camera or selling a warts-and-all tale of sex with a footballer/soap star in the hope that it will lead to a career in glamour modelling.


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## 118118 (May 10, 2007)

does this fill you with awe and respect. it does me lol.

btw i'm impressed thazt you haven't accused me of making no sesne yet


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## 118118 (May 10, 2007)

Prince Rhyus said:
			
		

> That's actually a tricky one.
> 
> For example not everyone has the ability, training nor aptitude to be a heart surgeon. However, more people have the ability, training and aptitude to be cleaners.
> 
> ...


intersting but slightly irrelevant wrt discussion. btw its great that you never react to anything


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## Bob_the_lost (May 10, 2007)

118118 said:
			
		

> are you actually trying to bully me into feeling bad about having a mental illness bob


Yes, that's exactly what i'm trying to do. Pillock (If you haven't picked it up, that was sarcastic).

If you have a problem then you talk to your lecturers about it, they will then try to find the fairest way to help you to proceed. Extra time in exams, relaxed deadlines, additional help from lecturers etc. All fine if you need it to show your potential and your ability.

But you're not talking about that, you're talking about pretending to be better than you are.


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## Prince Rhyus (May 10, 2007)

Being from "the other place" the only thing that saddens me about "Oxbridge" is that it still seems to be the preserve of the public schools - 7% of UK school kids going to such schools but making up 50% of Oxbridge intakes.

(The question then is how to deal with this - but that is for another thread.)

But as my other half studies in Cambridge it is a beautiful and awe-inspiring place. I just wish it could be more accessible to people from more backgrounds - which is why I get so angry about failings in the state education system.


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## equationgirl (May 10, 2007)

I was ill for five months from the January before my finals right through to my finals. 

I told the department right from the start that I was ill, and was cut slack for attending lectures, but I still had to turn in all my coursework and complete my dissertation.

I got a first and was second in my year. I didn't cheat.

Yes, it's shit that you were ill for one of your years at uni. Doesn't give you license to plagarise though, or call people slime because they don't condone what you did.


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## Prince Rhyus (May 10, 2007)

118118 said:
			
		

> btw its great that you never react to anything



Thank you  (The PCS union trained me in handling personal cases and to find out what the issue are, trying to see through the hostility between people. Had a very tricky case between senior managers last year that I cut my teeth on!)


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## wrysmile (May 10, 2007)

118118 said:
			
		

> lol. been cheatin'
> 
> more seriously, your ad hominems are like water off a paranoiacs back etc..



Hmmm... now I see why you need to cheat. You'd be in considerable trouble otherwise with that sort of sentence construction. Using the unfair 'system' as an excuse for cheating is just a cop out, you twat.

I was looking the other day online for dissertation writing tips and the first thing that came up when I googled 'dissertation writing' was a site where you could buy one. I was genuinely shocked. And really fucked off people would do that.


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## 118118 (May 10, 2007)

> But you're not talking about that, you're talking about pretending to be better than you are.


notwithstanding that that is a pillock's thing to say, what do you mean: to you, to employers, to my friends 

and i wasn't aware that opne's worth was solely measured by success at uni. did you do well at uni or something?

and equationgirl: i am beginning to doubt that youunderstand other people very well: I THOUGHT EVERYONE COULD READ MY MIND! How on eartham I supposed to understand the concept of plagerism? And who do you think i am arse fucking to get away with what i have done? ANd do you know what happens to most schizophrenics? Depression is like catching a cold, or so i was told in psyc.


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## 118118 (May 10, 2007)

No offense, but you're a bunch of emotional cripples lol.


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## 118118 (May 10, 2007)

what's wrong with my sentence construction? is it not grammatically correct?


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## wrysmile (May 10, 2007)

118118 said:
			
		

> How on eartham I supposed to understand the concept of plagerism?



Read the very long and detailed explanation that is mandatory in any course module handout or outline. It's fairly simple - don't borrow other people's work and then call it your own.


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## 118118 (May 10, 2007)

i don't think your understanding the concept that i am putting across.

and justify me being a twat for thinking that some plagerism is not massively dishonourable.


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## equationgirl (May 10, 2007)

So you thought people could read your mind? And plagarised an essay?

I'm not exactly sure how the two are related.

Your initial post read to me that you thought plagarism was one big joke, that it was no big deal and because life wasn't fair you should be able to do it.

Then when you were picked up on it, you start saying that you have health problems.

Health problems are no excuse for plagarism. either you want to be treated the same as everyone else or you want people to treat you extra-special because you have schizophrenia. You can't have it both ways.

And I wouldn't go around saying that depression is like catching a cold, there's a couple of very seriously depressed people on here at the moment who could do without you trying to play mental illness top trumps.


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## Bob_the_lost (May 10, 2007)

You must be good at plagarising because you're bloody awful at thinking for yourself.



			
				118118 said:
			
		

> notwithstanding that that is a pillock's thing to say, what do you mean: to you, to employers, to my friends


A stupid question. Employers of course, they dont want you for your stunning good looks, they want you because of your ability to do the job, your grade is one indication of that ability. Friends of course not, why would they care what grade you're heading for.




			
				118118 said:
			
		

> and i wasn't aware that opne's worth was solely measured by success at uni. did you do well at uni or something?


You missed this:



			
				Me said:
			
		

> ... I flunked out of one degree because i was the thick one at the university. I wasn't top of the heap, didn't put in the work and i failed because of it. Harsh, but fair.


I'm now taking a similar degree somewhere else, one i'm doing far better in now i've gotten to grips with my learning difficulties and now i'm doing a course i enjoy. Thanks for asking 

Soley: No, hell it's not really a major measure of worth as a _person_ i'd be putting things like integrity above it myself.


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## 118118 (May 10, 2007)

all i can say is that i honsetyly didn't understand the concept of plagerism. lets say i was 80% sure that i hadn't plagerized, and 50% sure that if i did then i would get caught, with 2 days to go and in amess thinking that everyone on earth was persecuting me by not telling me that other people could read my mind, i played the odds. fair enough if you ask me. tbh i didn't even have to say this to my tutors, they all went into a panic and covered it up mighty quick


----------



## 118118 (May 10, 2007)

equation girl. imagine that everyone's thinking is just one giant vat, and everyone's thoughts are freely available to access at any time. notwithstanding the question of how one is supposed to create one's own work if this is the case, why can't my tutors just read my mind rather than my work? lol, i spent all year chatting away to dead famous philosophers about stuff. made me the man i am today


----------



## 118118 (May 10, 2007)

i'm peased for you bob <3 but, i do still think that plagerism is ok, unless like your mates plagerizing and not told you that he is. you should be allowed to make your own choice as to whether  you want to run the risks.


----------



## 118118 (May 10, 2007)

ffs, you are the one playing top trumps dear. evidence "don't go around playing top trumps". i am perfectly within my civilian rights, ney it is almost my, stutter, duty, to say that schizophrenia is a v shitty "disease". who knows, perhaps it will help them, its helped me thru some crushing sadness. fwiw equationgirl, i don't wear any diagnoses i have as a badge of pride (just my personality). that would be WRONG now wouldn't it!


----------



## 118118 (May 10, 2007)

crap stupid site  does everyone's computer stutter at the same time?


----------



## 118118 (May 10, 2007)

what happened to the hords of detractors


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## Bob_the_lost (May 10, 2007)

Can't be arsed.

Your degree grade is worthless, no matter what you get you haven't earnt it. More significantly you won't have learnt all that your course is supposed to teach and as such should not seek a career in the subject where your degree is a requisit. Sitting in lectures is not taking a degree.


----------



## 118118 (May 10, 2007)

eh? did you listen to my story? it was one essay of one module in the second year, and i had to resit it. ffs, you think that the fact that I have "cheated" means that i did not learn anything from the rest of uni?

and ffs, to me you just sound very very, erm, respectful of power/authority/yoiur social betters/order/etc..


----------



## 118118 (May 10, 2007)

opinions are great aren't they! one can just have an opinion, and not listen to anything that contradicts it. wow.


----------



## Bob_the_lost (May 10, 2007)

118118 said:
			
		

> eh? did you listen to my story? it was one essay of one module in the second year, and i had to resit it. ffs, you think that the fact that I have "cheated" means that i did not learn anything from the rest of uni?
> 
> and ffs, to me you just sound very very, erm, respectful of power/authority/yoiur social betters/order/etc..


Yes i did:



			
				118118 said:
			
		

> and i cheated in all throughout my degree


Make your bloody mind up.


----------



## 118118 (May 10, 2007)

i was trying to provoke the crowd of power carzed success stories, in order to exploit their week points, the "labile" points of the structure of their beliefs.


----------



## Bob_the_lost (May 10, 2007)

118118 said:
			
		

> i was trying to provoke the crowd of power carzed success stories, in order to exploit their week points, the "labile" points of the structure of their beliefs.


Yeah, right, you were talking out your arse again.

*awaits next 118118 post contradicting everything*


----------



## 118118 (May 10, 2007)

i made one contradictory (the single untrue) post to see what would happen. shrug.


----------



## 118118 (May 10, 2007)

i stand by that plagerism isn't immoral in an immoral system. i suppose one couyld say "yeah but murder is wrong, even though a criminal justice system may be corrupt". but the difference is that plagerism is only wrong because the system is immoral. in a better society, no-one would mind if someone plagerized, cos it would make no difference to income status etc.. i've probably got more arguments, i just can't be bothered to work them out at the mo.

sure plagerism is wrong if because of it someone becomes an under qualified doctor and starts killing patients. but to extend that beyond such instances is just lazy inductive moralist argument.

i think i get it: you think that it is morally wrong for someone not to get the wage/status/academic success that chimes with their intelligence and work rate. i don't think this, as that kind of inequality is valueless and nasty.

like i say, we're from different planets bob :-/


----------



## Bob_the_lost (May 11, 2007)

118118 said:
			
		

> sure plagerism is wrong if because of it someone becomes an under qualified doctor and starts killing patients. but to extend that beyond such instances is just lazy inductive moralist argument.


How about the incompetent programer who makes a mistake implementing the B method they're supposed to be able to use who results in a train crash? Or the more mundane, the one who copies their computer security work and then builds a site so that it get hacked and credit card detials are released.

How about the sloppy engineer who doesn't check his numbers properly because he hasn't taken the time to learn how to do design work, resulting in a bridge collapsing. Or the more mundane, an extension that needs to be pulled down again and rebuilt at thousands of pounds cost.

If you give responsability to people who should not have it then things will go wrong. One of the ways you prove that you can handle it is coursework, one of the ways you develop the ability is coursework. To pretend it only applies in the case of doctors and nurses is really bloody stupid. How about a lazy mental health worker who gets a job because of a degree they didn't earn? Or a teacher?




			
				118118 said:
			
		

> Academic success that chimes with their intelligence and work rate. i don't think this, as that kind of inequality is valueless and nasty.


Damn right i do. 

I will never become an olympic grade rower, i'm too short. No matter how fit i get i will never be able to compete with people a foot taller than me. If i were to be entered into an olympic training squad i'd only hold others back and i'd still never make it to the standard needed. I have to learn to live with being second rate physically, this is part of life. If my coach ignored my height issues i'd still be in the top boat, i'm faster and fitter than the bloke who rows there now, but his height means that the balance is better. My inability to improve in that sense was clear and i was moved to the second crew where my height was less of a factor, as as result the top boat is faster and i'm in a place where i can perform better too. Recognising limitations and working within them is an essential part of life.

If you're not first rate intellecutually then pretending you are is only going to hold others back and put you in a situation where you're out of your depth.


----------



## 118118 (May 11, 2007)

i'm not really "stupid" bob. i was an over achiever at school, perhaps such as that my success did not reflect my innate intelligence, but shrug.

as to the rest of it, i suggest we stop this argument now. cos i couldn't live with myself if i started to think like you. not only the fact that i would look down at some, but that others could legitimately look down at me. 
------------
but i'll finish on this point. are you saying that the sole point of not plagerizing is that you don't end up in a job which you excel at doing badly in? fair enough, but like i say, that isn't an issue in all cases of plagerism.

ps: CUNT.


----------



## 118118 (May 11, 2007)

i mean, i'm happy to get my sense of self worth from my ability to amuse myself.  rather than that i am more of a man/intellectual/artist/dancer/rower than someone else. unfriendly competition with one's enemies makes me insecure. and it can't be very good for the soul either.


----------



## Bob_the_lost (May 11, 2007)

118118 said:
			
		

> i'm not really "stupid" bob. i was an over achiever at school, perhaps such as that my success did not reflect my innate intelligence, but shrug.
> 
> as to the rest of it, i suggest we stop this argument now. cos i couldn't live with myself if i started to think like you. not only the fact that i would look down at some, but that others could legitimately look down at me.
> ------------
> ...


No 1181118, i was trying to get through to you with an example. However it's clear you'll never understand why society as a whole say you're wrong.

Nor it seems will you ever come up with an explanation of why the system is unfair.

Your examples are weak, your style inconsistent and your logic poor. I hope its' a technical course.


----------



## 118118 (May 11, 2007)

i think the same of you ^^ my logic is beyond reproach ffs (i don't study logic but ykwim).

i've explained why i think the system is unfair: because of a lack of equality. slightly sadistic, washed up, boring cunt.


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## 118118 (May 11, 2007)

give me an example of a flaw in my logic, brat.


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## 118118 (May 11, 2007)

you're a fucking joke. you and any of your retarded friends. my liogic is flawed. but wait: you can't explain that can you? no different to the infamous dubversion (hall'wed be his name), lacking in evidence argument or reasonableness, but at least the tart is consistent!


----------



## 118118 (May 11, 2007)

Bob_the_lost said:
			
		

> I hope its' a technical course.


are you trying to make me give a shit about your crappy little values and world. ffs, mate, don't be a cunt!


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## 118118 (May 11, 2007)

got into med school without interview and dossing thru my last 4 years. suck on it dickweed. now, maybe you are a genius, but shrug, you certainly lack the character.


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## Bob_the_lost (May 11, 2007)

118118 said:
			
		

> give me an example of a flaw in my logic, brat.






			
				118118 said:
			
		

> i think i get it: you think that it is morally wrong for someone not to get the wage/status/academic success that chimes with their intelligence and work rate. i don't think this, as that kind of *inequality is valueless and nasty.*






			
				118118 said:
			
		

> sure plagerism is wrong if because of it someone becomes an under qualified doctor and starts killing patients.


You cannot see the logical incompatability of this? Or do you make an exception to the rule not realising that a logical extrapolation of it will mean that your orriginal statement is worthless?

But more significant are your amazing leaps of logic, assuming that getting a particular grade has some effect on your friends. Assuming that i was bulling you for a mental health issue rather than taking afront at you spitting on my work.



			
				118118 said:
			
		

> i've explained why i think the system is unfair


You have failed to explain, you have stated. Even when you have tried to explain and failed your logic is pathetic. How on earth is the system to become "equal" without allowing anyone to become a doctor if they spend six years studying it?

I'm making the effort to avoid going into the ad hominems at the moment, otherwise i fear it might get rather unpleasant. If you could do the same it'd be nice.


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## 118118 (May 11, 2007)

go on mate explain how my logic is flawed. pmsl.


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## equationgirl (May 11, 2007)

118118 said:
			
		

> you're a fucking joke. you and any of your retarded friends. my liogic is flawed. but wait: you can't explain that can you? no different to the infamous dubversion (hall'wed be his name), lacking in evidence argument or reasonableness, but at least the tart is consistent!



Who are you calling a tart?

 

If you're looking for the majority of urban to support your plagarism, have a look at the 'buy a marketing dissertation thread from last week'.


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## Bob_the_lost (May 11, 2007)

118118 said:
			
		

> go on mate explain how my logic is flawed. pmsl.


They should all be equal!
Except doctors, they should be exempt as they have lives resting on their shoulders!
Oh and except civil engineers! They build bridges that could fail and kill hundreds!
Oh and aeronaughtical engineers! Planes might suffer metal fatigue and crash!
Oh and social workers, if they make a mistake then they ruin lives!
Oh and ....

Any vocational degree can be included with the same basis as doctors, non vocational courses use the same set of rules with only a little more thought. Making your demand for equality meaningless, if you're going to implement it as you'd want it could only be for subjects where the topic or skills gained / tested are never going to be used. Which would be .... none!


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## 118118 (May 11, 2007)

those statement are no 100% incompatible, fool.

inequality is valueless. working in a job that you can;t do is not equality 

inequalities in wage/status/academic success. i didn't say identical careers, did I? perhaps, 'academic success' has confused you? it only contradicts my original statement if you accpet that some vocational achievements are better than others, e.g. that someone being a doctor and someone being a cleaner is inherently unegalitarian. otherwise i don't see how that is an inequality in academic success.

i think you underestimate how much space there is in life iyswim

"not realising that a logical extrapolation of it will mean that your orriginal statement is worthless?"  oh my! you are a genius!


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## 118118 (May 11, 2007)

"They should all be equal!
Except doctors, they should be exempt as they have lives resting on their shoulders!
Oh and except civil engineers! They build bridges that could fail and kill hundreds!
Oh and aeronaughtical engineers! Planes might suffer metal fatigue and crash!
Oh and social workers, if they make a mistake then they ruin lives!
Oh and ....

Any vocational degree can be included with the same basis as doctors. Making your demand for equality meaningless, if you're going to implement it as you'd want it could only be for subjects where the topic or skills gained / tested are never going to be used. Which would be .... none!"

i'm certainly not saying the first thing. and i don't see what you think my demand for equality is exactly?

apologies for the minor mistake in my last post. i hope your degree is technical mate, considering that you're arguing with a schizophrenic pmsl.


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## Bob_the_lost (May 11, 2007)

I don't have a clue what you're on about. If you could slow down for a bit and rewrite that it'd make this discussion more fruitful.

Now, points i can understand:



			
				118118 said:
			
		

> inequalities in wage/status/academic success. i didn't say career, did I?


I thought the link was obvious. Or do you think that all aeronaughtical engineers go on to become aircraft designers?


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## 118118 (May 11, 2007)

meh, maybe i don't have a hard-on for inequality. but shrug, i know that you're wrong.


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## 118118 (May 11, 2007)

interesting, you picked out the onen thing i wasn't sure i had stated correctly.

basically, equality in pay, status, academic prestige is a good thing (tho of course there is a simple was of arguing against a universal equality in the last one). i fail to see how any reasonable person could disagree with that. its not like i'm saying that we should hang diana and prince wills, even that tony blair is a cunt. just that ideally, equality is good


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## equationgirl (May 11, 2007)

random posts do not a coherent argument make.


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## 118118 (May 11, 2007)

> "inequalities in wage/status/academic success. i didn't say career, did I?"
> I thought the link was obvious. Or do you think that all aeronaughtical engineers go on to become aircraft designers?



you could have a systme wherein, all academic success or fields were upto an extent, equally valued: wherein what is classed as success is fairly lumpen.

now somer scientists may have to be more highly valued by the scientific community to help progress, but no reason why that would have to be the most reasonable critereon of what counts as academic success.

and as to whether it is impossible or whatnot for pay and social status to be universally equal. well..


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## 118118 (May 11, 2007)

i wasn't calling you a tart. and i assumed that clever types could see links easily


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## 118118 (May 11, 2007)

STICKING POINT: Inequality in a system is fair???

Me: No
You: Yes!

I think I am the reasonable one. guess this is tailing out now tho.


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## equationgirl (May 11, 2007)

Eh?

Academic success is how well you perform academically, in exams, degrees etc.

Whether or not a mechanical engineer is a more valid profession than an intellectual property manager, a mathematical biologist or a librarian is completely different.

I'm not convinced you even know what you're arguing  for or against anymore, 118118.


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## 118118 (May 11, 2007)

was my logic flawed (original claim by you)? or was it sound but you could not see my point of view (my claim now)?


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## Bob_the_lost (May 11, 2007)

118118 said:
			
		

> interesting, you picked out the onen thing i wasn't sure i had stated correctly.
> 
> basically, equality in pay, status, academic prestige is a good thing (tho of course there is a simple was of arguing against a universal equality in the last one). i fail to see how any reasonable person could disagree with that. its not like i'm saying that we should hang diana and prince wills, even that tony blair is a cunt. just that ideally, equality is good


You cannot understand the results. Nor do you understand any of the other reasons that people object, strongly, to your belief that cheating is acceptable.

Fair enough, if it is possible to persuade you then it'll take someone more than me. I will say as one last dig that i would not employ, work alongside or work for, you or anyone else who had plagarised or who thought it was ok to do so. In my opinion at least it shows a massive flaw of character and lack of integrity.

Plagarism:
1) Gets you something you are not entitled to
2) Devalues the work of others and the subject you're studying
3) Potentially puts you in a position that you are incapable of doing or at the expense of someone more able.

But as long as doctors are not paid more than chimney sweeps, that's all fine.


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## 118118 (May 11, 2007)

oh, well, i wasn't aware that 'academic success' had an essentialist definition!

this is a bit weak on your parts tbh. i am fully aware of what i am arguing for, don't try and patronize me


----------



## equationgirl (May 11, 2007)

118118 said:
			
		

> i wasn't calling you a tart. and i assumed that clever types could see links easily



i never said you were calling me a tart.

i asked who you were calling a tart, and I assumed that you'd read and answer the question.


----------



## 118118 (May 11, 2007)

'entitled' i disagree that you are entitled to anything mate.



> Potentially puts you in a position that you are incapable of doing.


i have not denied this may be an issue.

and please, did you read my explanation of the events surrounding my "plagerism". ffs, like i say you're lacking character if you can't get your head round the idea that the stuff that you believe in ofetn has exceptions.


----------



## 118118 (May 11, 2007)

what does it matter. bob fwiw  seeing as he's called me slime lol.


----------



## equationgirl (May 11, 2007)

118118 said:
			
		

> oh, well, i wasn't aware that 'academic success' had an essentialist definition!
> 
> this is a bit weak on your parts tbh. i am fully aware of what i am arguing for, don't try and patronize me



you may be perfectly clear what you are arguing for, but if you read back over the last couple of pages you're not communicating it very well, hence my comments.

Inequality happens. It is unfair - men should not get paid more than women for the same job, nor blacks less than whites, nor homosexuals less than straights, for example.

But to claim that it's ok for you to plagarise because the system is unfair isn't inequality, it's cheating.


----------



## Bob_the_lost (May 11, 2007)

118118 said:
			
		

> 'entitled' i disagree that you are entitled to anything mate.
> 
> i have not denied this may be an issue.
> 
> and please, did you read my explanation of the events surrounding my "plagerism". ffs, like i say you're lacking character if you can't get your head round the idea that the stuff that you believe in ofetn has exceptions.


You defended plagarism in general you twit (yes, i know i wanted to dial back the ad hominems but...). Read the damned sentence.


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## 118118 (May 11, 2007)

its not cheating its subversion. you're only undermining unfair laws. i think that you can't see this because you put some kind of value to academic success that in which we could never be equal, however "utopian" the system. but such a vlaue does not exist. indeed, it *cannot*.


----------



## 118118 (May 11, 2007)

maybe i didn't say plagerism in general, just that plagerism is inherently good  but not universally good. tbh i can't remember without a quote


----------



## 118118 (May 11, 2007)

> I hope its' a technical course


this sort of behaviour, i.e. attempting to undermine my chances of meeting future goals of mine, is *unexcusable*


----------



## equationgirl (May 11, 2007)

Well that's a plagarism defence I've never come across before.

'I wasn't really plagarising, I was subverting the system'.

Oh yes, that'll get you off the hook.

Not.


----------



## Balbi (May 11, 2007)

_ONSLOOOOOOOWWWW!!!!!_


----------



## equationgirl (May 11, 2007)

118118 said:
			
		

> this sort of behaviour, i.e. attempting to undermine my chances of meeting future goals of mine, is *unexcusable*



it's inexecusable, and no-one is undermining any of your future goals, unless you let them.


----------



## 118118 (May 11, 2007)

subversion doesn't have to be destabalizing. its just got to subvert

@


----------



## Bob_the_lost (May 11, 2007)

118118 said:
			
		

> what does it matter. bob fwiw  seeing as he's called me slime lol.






			
				118118 said:
			
		

> you're a fucking joke. you and any of your retarded friends.
> 
> ps: CUNT.
> 
> ...


I'm not offended despite all of this. You have a mental illness, one which is characterised in many cases with an inability to understand/experience emotions, with resultant "odd" behaviour. I'm going to assume that you have this form of it, otherwise i'll have to conclude you're a hypocritical fuckwit who resorts to insults to mask his incoherent bullshit and *then* hides behind it. This in particular was a stunning line:



			
				118118 said:
			
		

> a bunch of emotional cripples lol.


When the world disagrees with you, the idea you may be wrong should be worth considering. Take it easy 118118.


----------



## equationgirl (May 11, 2007)

Balbi said:
			
		

> _ONSLOOOOOOOWWWW!!!!!_



He's gone quiet. I hope he's working on his dissertation.


----------



## Balbi (May 11, 2007)

equationgirl said:
			
		

> He's gone quiet. I hope he's working on his dissertation.



Or whoring himself out to academics for references


----------



## 118118 (May 11, 2007)

i hope that wasn't directed towards me.



> I'm not offended despite all of this. You have a mental illness, one which is characterised in many cases with an inability to control or understand emotions. I'm going to assume that you have this form of it, otherwise i'll have to conclude you're a hypocritical fuckwit who resorts to insults to mask his incoherent bullshit and then hides behind it. This in particular was a stunning line:


either of the options of how to treat me see me sound terrible. you're such a giver!

and ffs doesn't Urban75 agree with me wrt plagerism (or so it has been said on this thread).


----------



## equationgirl (May 11, 2007)

I'm looking forward to your next essay by the way, that last one was dead good.

Maybe onslow bought himself a doctor's cert for some more time instead.


----------



## Balbi (May 11, 2007)

Like Satanus McKeith


----------



## 118118 (May 11, 2007)

so is my logic flawed lol.

but you've gone on to call me incoherent instead! would you like me to proveanother point to you?


----------



## equationgirl (May 11, 2007)

118118 said:
			
		

> i hope that wasn't directed towards me.
> 
> either of the options of how to treat me see me sound terrible. you're such a giver!
> 
> and ffs doesn't Urban75 agree with me wrt plagerism (or so it has been said on this thread).



This is what urban thinks about plagarism, and the above posts were about onslow, the OP on the thread:

http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=205560

In summary, if you plagarise, you're a c*nt.


----------



## Bob_the_lost (May 11, 2007)

118118 said:
			
		

> and ffs doesn't Urban75 agree with me wrt plagerism (or so it has been said on this thread).


If you're really that deluded to the opinion of the masses then start a poll in general. Whatever your options are i'd request that you include:
"Plagarism is wrong and should not be tolerated ever"
"Plagarism is wrong but not too serrious"
As well as whatever "plagarism is ok at times" etc. type options and of course the comedy option of your choice.


----------



## equationgirl (May 11, 2007)

118118 said:
			
		

> so is my logic flawed lol.
> 
> but you've gone on to call me incoherent instead! would you like me to proveanother point to you?



So far you've proven nothing to me, other than your inability to conduct a reasoned logical argument.

I see no reason to ask you to prove it to me again.


----------



## 118118 (May 11, 2007)

equationgirl said:
			
		

> I'm looking forward to your next essay by the way, that last one was dead good.


are you saying you didn't like my phenomenology essay? its _exactly_ hopw i wanted it to be. its all about knowing how to jumpo thru hoops, and then doiing so.

btw, my intelligence, enough to be a medical doctor. shruig. wrt to attacking my "intrelligence", i don't think youunderstand what schizophrenia is tbh. thingsa re better than 100 years ago (unsurprisingly) but you don't get schizophrenic academic iyswim. why jump thru hoops when you can read minds etc.


----------



## Balbi (May 11, 2007)

I know a bloke who wrote 4000 words of his pharmacology dissertation in the three hours before the deadline. He didn't plagarise. If you have to, you're a fucking cunt.

That's not an argument, that's the facts


----------



## 118118 (May 11, 2007)

equationgirl said:
			
		

> So far you've proven nothing to me, other than your inability to conduct a reasoned logical argument.
> 
> I see no reason to ask you to prove it to me again.


mighty bluf there equation girl  or is 'liar' better. lying to your acquaitances/subverting immoral (by your own accord) systems. hmmm.


----------



## 118118 (May 11, 2007)

balbi: don't be a geek.


----------



## Balbi (May 11, 2007)

118118 said:
			
		

> why jump thru hoops when you can read minds etc.



why plagarise when you can actually have your own opinion

and for the record, read my mind.... (sneak preview = YOU'RE A CUNT)


----------



## equationgirl (May 11, 2007)

I was talking to Balbi, I read his essay on the Catholic Church and women's rights in Chile this afternoon.

I did not know you had written an essay.


----------



## Bob_the_lost (May 11, 2007)

Balbi said:
			
		

> I know a bloke who wrote 4000 words of his pharmacology dissertation in the three hours before the deadline. He didn't plagarise. If you have to, you're a fucking cunt.
> 
> That's not an argument, that's the facts


4000 words 3 hours
4000 words 210 minutes

<20 wpm

Easy!


----------



## 118118 (May 11, 2007)

i didn't plagerize i don't think. i ceratinly didn't deliberately.

whats the point with this crap


----------



## Balbi (May 11, 2007)

equationgirl said:
			
		

> I was talking to Balbi, I read his essay on the Catholic Church and women's rights in Chile this afternoon.



 Cheers Doc


----------



## equationgirl (May 11, 2007)

118118 said:
			
		

> mighty bluf there equation girl  or is 'liar' better. lying to your acquaitances/subverting immoral (by your own accord) systems. hmmm.



I don't lie.

You don't conduct logical reasoned arguments.


----------



## 118118 (May 11, 2007)

Balbi said:
			
		

> why plagarise when you can actually have your own opinion
> 
> and for the record, read my mind.... (sneak preview = YOU'RE A CUNT)


contrare, you are the cunt for calling me a cunt, geddit. you don't think i have opinions now. 

i mean why have you gatecrashed this toss?


----------



## Bob_the_lost (May 11, 2007)

118118 said:
			
		

> i didn't plagerize i don't think. i ceratinly didn't deliberately.
> 
> whats the point with this crap


You said you did plagarise. You said you didn't do it deliberately. (You also said you did it frequently but claim that to be a lie).

You also say that it's fine to plagarise if you're trying to subvert the system. This is the bit that makes you a cunt.


----------



## equationgirl (May 11, 2007)

118118 said:
			
		

> i didn't plagerize i don't think. i ceratinly didn't deliberately.
> 
> whats the point with this crap



Your first post on this thread said you plagarised.

Make up your mind, either you did or your didn't.


----------



## Bob_the_lost (May 11, 2007)

No poll 118118? Do you want me to make it for you? I'd be perfectly willing but don't want to mess up the "plagarism is good" options.


----------



## 118118 (May 11, 2007)

well, i've been wondering who balbi is for a while. pops up, calls me a cunt, kisses a bit, and then...


----------



## Balbi (May 11, 2007)

Plagarism is the sign of someone afraid, or unable, to put forward their argument with the evidence necessary to back that argument up.

I'm involved because any plagarism in higher education makes me want to rip the eyeballs out of plagarists


----------



## 118118 (May 11, 2007)

i don't know urban75's opinion on the matter. i hardly consider anyof you subversive types tho, so shrug.


----------



## Bob_the_lost (May 11, 2007)

Fine, i'll make the poll. It'll be up shortly.


----------



## Balbi (May 11, 2007)

Well no, we're academics - lynchpin of the reactionary state


----------



## 118118 (May 11, 2007)

did you read my story balbi? it just makes me laugh at the nerve


----------



## equationgirl (May 11, 2007)

Balbi is a hardworking student who thinks people who plagarise are tossers. If you read the thread I pointed you towards you see that for yourself.


----------



## 118118 (May 11, 2007)

be sure to include that the option of ok except where someone may be incapable at work.


----------



## 118118 (May 11, 2007)

so, why should i takeany notice of your opinion balbi?


----------



## Balbi (May 11, 2007)

118118 said:
			
		

> so, why should i takeany notice of your opinion balbi?



Because frankly, I'm BETTER than you


----------



## 118118 (May 11, 2007)

this is great. i feel really loved


----------



## equationgirl (May 11, 2007)

If someone is incapable they should be seeking am exemption or extension on medical grounds, not plagarising. That's not a valid reason.


----------



## 118118 (May 11, 2007)

Balbi said:
			
		

> Because frankly, I'm BETTER than you


yeah whatever mate. its not that uncommon  none of the academics on this board have my respect. or it would seem particular want my respect. shrug.


----------



## equationgirl (May 11, 2007)

118118 said:
			
		

> this is great. i feel really loved



Well, 118118, calling people retards and slime doesn't tend to bring forth the love, y'know?


----------



## 118118 (May 11, 2007)

I Didn't Know It Was Plagerism You Dappy Woman!


----------



## Balbi (May 11, 2007)

Mainly because your tactics don't warrant respect.


----------



## Bob_the_lost (May 11, 2007)

"ok except where someone may be incapable at work" I'd include it but it's a bit vague, how about:
"Ok if there are mitigating circumstances"
Otherwise it opens up the door to those who are incapable of the work at any time, rather than your case where you were temporarily incapable.


----------



## 118118 (May 11, 2007)

equationgirl said:
			
		

> Well, 118118, calling people retards and slime doesn't tend to bring forth the love, y'know?


well, i find this "i am better than you" retarded and slime like. fair enouigh really.


----------



## 118118 (May 11, 2007)

no cos the two are completely different


----------



## equationgirl (May 11, 2007)

118118 said:
			
		

> I Didn't Know It Was Plagerism You Dappy Woman!



How can you not what what plagarism is? Especially if you said you did it?

Surely if you said you did it, you must know what it was.


----------



## 118118 (May 11, 2007)

Balbi said:
			
		

> Mainly because your tactics don't warrant respect.


my tactics to sleep with tp or something? or ios thiswarcraft bollox. don't have the time mate.


----------



## equationgirl (May 11, 2007)

118118 said:
			
		

> well, i find this "i am better than you" retarded and slime like. fair enouigh really.



No-one's really going around saying 'we're better than you' 118118. You're perceiving others seeing you in that way.

You won't get a lot of respect if you think plagarism is ok, there's a lot of people on urban studying hard at the moment.


----------



## Balbi (May 11, 2007)

118118 said:
			
		

> my tactics to sleep with tp or something? or ios thiswarcraft bollox. don't have the time mate.



    

World of WTF to be honest now.


----------



## 118118 (May 11, 2007)

its er 2 and a half years on.

and i think 'is plagerism ok if it subverts the system and no-one gets hurt (tho some people don't get what they "deserve"' be sure to include quotation marks.

whatever like, why would a poll be anything ut amusing/engaging/fun. what i post on bbs on: not to work out my eqotism.


----------



## Balbi (May 11, 2007)

equationgirl said:
			
		

> No-one's really going around saying 'we're better than you' 118118. You're perceiving others seeing you in that way.



Apart from me, and I was kidding  

(maybe )


----------



## 118118 (May 11, 2007)

obviously i'm not trying to sleep with anypone on these boards, least of all someone with such reownedtits. i was not sure what battle *you* were playing tactially. figured it had to be one of the two.


----------



## Balbi (May 11, 2007)

118118 said:
			
		

> its er 2 and a half years on.
> 
> and i think 'is plagerism ok if it subverts the system and no-one gets hurt (tho some people don't get what they "deserve"' be sure to include quotation marks.
> 
> whatever like, why would a poll be anything ut amusing/engaging/fun. what i post on bbs on: not to work out my eqotism.



PLAGARISM IS A COWARDS SOLUTION. IT REDUCES THE QUALITY OF WORK AND MOCKS YOUR FELLOW COURSEMATES HONEST EFFORTS. IT BRINGS DOWN THE STANDARD OF ACADEMIC ACHIEVEMENT AND PROMOTES LITTLE MORE THAN A LACK OF COMMITMENT TO THE SUBJECT.


----------



## Bob_the_lost (May 11, 2007)

http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=207006

Sorry 118118 but it's up now. I only now understand your point:

"It's ok unless it results in someone gaining a carreer they are incapable of"


----------



## equationgirl (May 11, 2007)

It's late.


----------



## 118118 (May 11, 2007)

maybe not, but bob e.g. hasn't been very helpful to my confidence


----------



## Balbi (May 11, 2007)

118118 said:
			
		

> obviously i'm not trying to sleep with anypone on these boards, least of all someone with such reownedtits. i was not sure what battle *you* were playing tactially. figured it had to be one of the two.


----------



## 118118 (May 11, 2007)

i think you missed the point bob. that poll has nothing to do with this discussion. i suspect you are making straw men tbh


----------



## Bob_the_lost (May 11, 2007)

118118 said:
			
		

> i think you missed the point bob. that poll has nothing to do with this discussion. i suspect you are making straw men tbh


You brought it up. Even as a tangent it's worth shooting down.


----------



## equationgirl (May 11, 2007)

It has everything to do with this discussion.

You said plagarism is ok in certain circumstances.

You wondered what the opinion of urban is.

You were directed to a thread on plagarism and now we're doing a definitive poll to find out.


----------



## equationgirl (May 11, 2007)

118118 said:
			
		

> maybe not, but bob e.g. hasn't been very helpful to my confidence



how?


----------



## 118118 (May 11, 2007)

Balbi said:
			
		

> Mainly because your tactics don't warrant respect.


i thought you meant in thisdiscussion. i rralize now what you meant. my tactics were spot on,a i didn't even think of the consequences for one instant, couldn't comprehend. and tbh, puitting to one side that i don't respect your opinion as an acquaitance on this matter, as you have vested intersts etc. etc., i am intersted as to how you would treat a case of someone who had just come out of a mental hospital (3 months ago) with schizophrena, who had obviously plagerized, who had discussed that he wasn't sure if he was plagerizing alrdeady, and said that he(/she whatever) didn'tunderstyand the concept.

kick him our?


----------



## Balbi (May 11, 2007)

well tbh we've all told the truth, and that hurts 118118


----------



## Balbi (May 11, 2007)

118118 said:
			
		

> i thought you meant in thisdiscussion. i rralize now what you meant. my tactics were spot on,a i didn't even think of the consequences for one instant, couldn't comprehend. and tbh, puitting to one side that i don't respect your opinion as an acquaitance on this matter, as you have vested intersts etc. etc., i am intersted as to how you would treat a case of someone who had just come out of a mental hospital (3 months ago) with schizophrena, who had obviously plagerized, who had discussed that he wasn't sure if he was plagerizing alrdeady, and said that he(/she whatever) didn'tunderstyand the concept.
> 
> kick him our?



Extenuating Circumstances. That's the solution. Go through the proper channels.


----------



## 118118 (May 11, 2007)

'mitigating circumsatnces' has nothing to do with what i've been arguing. btw, i doubt that everyone who votes will have the imagionation to think of the circumstances i had in mind,


----------



## equationgirl (May 11, 2007)

Suggest they came back too soon, weren't ready and suggest more time off, possibly even a year's deferrment.


----------



## Bob_the_lost (May 11, 2007)

118118 said:
			
		

> i thought you meant in thisdiscussion. i rralize now what you meant. my tactics were spot on,a i didn't even think of the consequences for one instant, couldn't comprehend. and tbh, puitting to one side that i don't respect your opinion as an acquaitance on this matter, as you have vested intersts etc. etc., i am intersted as to how you would treat a case of someone who had just come out of a mental hospital (3 months ago) with schizophrena, who had obviously plagerized, who had discussed that he wasn't sure if he was plagerizing alrdeady, and said that he(/she whatever) didn'tunderstyand the concept.
> 
> kick him our?


Make him resit the modules / year. Probably without a penalty (some unis cap resit marks at 40%, some take an average between 40% and your real mark).

Whatever happens it would not make it into their marks and they would not progress unless they did the work.


----------



## 118118 (May 11, 2007)

Balbi said:
			
		

> Extenuating Circumstances. That's the solution. Go through the proper channels.


what are you going on about ffs? psychotics don't know they're insane!

you don't have a clue do you


----------



## 118118 (May 11, 2007)

I Did Do The Fucking Work!


----------



## Balbi (May 11, 2007)

118118 said:
			
		

> what are you going on about ffs? psychotics don't know they're insane!
> 
> you don't have a clue do you



No I don't, yet your argument seems to become increasingly convoluted.


----------



## 118118 (May 11, 2007)

i basically knew the chapters i wasworking on off by heart i was that confused about wtf i waws doing/was going on.


----------



## Bob_the_lost (May 11, 2007)

118118 said:
			
		

> I Did Do The Fucking Work!


When you resat the module? Yes. I am not criticising you for that. You did something wrong due to illness.

However you keep trying to justify it in general.


----------



## 118118 (May 11, 2007)

what? argument that all plagerism is wrong? or argument that i am not a bad prson for "plagerizing"/should have been kicked out?


----------



## Balbi (May 11, 2007)

118118 said:
			
		

> i basically knew the chapters i wasworking on off by heart i was that confused about wtf i waws doing/was going on.



So explain that to the university and the circumstances. They will be more than happy to help you


----------



## 118118 (May 11, 2007)

we're from different worlds. i expect you are planning to become an academic/something high powered from the sounds of it. i am "ill" or whatever for the rest of my life. go figure, subversion is all i have.


----------



## Bob_the_lost (May 11, 2007)

118118 said:
			
		

> what? argument that all plagerism is wrong? or argument that i am not a bad prson for "plagerizing"/should have been kicked out?


Plagarism should either be a kicking out or resit year offense, *unless there is damned good reason why not*. Your situation is one of the few where merely redoing the essay seems the fairest thing.


----------



## 118118 (May 11, 2007)

it happened two and a half yearas ago! and tbh i had to get to uni immediately or i would never had got out of bed.


----------



## equationgirl (May 11, 2007)

What answer do you want us to give, 118118?

That you did the right thing? That you did the wrong thing? That your uni were shits?


----------



## Balbi (May 11, 2007)

118118 said:
			
		

> we're from different worlds. i expect you are planning to become an academic/something high powered from the sounds of it. i am "ill" or whatever for the rest of my life. go figure, subversion is all i have.



Yeah right. University and other academic institutions have methods for people in your position to continue your education.


----------



## 118118 (May 11, 2007)

i was only permited to score a 40


----------



## 118118 (May 11, 2007)

Balbi said:
			
		

> Yeah right. University and other academic institutions have methods for people in your position to continue your education.


yeah right mate... what do you mean: sheltered work envirnoment? fuck that, owuld have made me 10 times worse. there are no schools for psychotics (like deaf schools i mean).


----------



## 118118 (May 11, 2007)

sory i'm still defending myself against allegations that i have no logic skills.

didn't realize this conversation was spiralling so much.


----------



## equationgirl (May 11, 2007)

I'm too tired for this convoluted bollocks.


----------



## Balbi (May 11, 2007)

Innit.


----------



## 118118 (May 11, 2007)

anyway, i've seen no evidence that plagerism is a terrible thing.


----------



## Balbi (May 11, 2007)

118118 said:
			
		

> anyway, i've seen no evidence that plagerism is a terrible thing.



Good for you. Have a trophy.


----------



## equationgirl (May 11, 2007)

Balbi said:
			
		

> Good for you. Have a trophy.



Sorry, that made me laugh


----------



## 118118 (May 11, 2007)

Balbi said:
			
		

> Good for you. Have a trophy.


ta dear.

what a dull conversation all in all.


----------



## 118118 (May 11, 2007)

a better poll would have been multiple choice and included:

d: plagerism is not immoral if no-one ends up in a job they can't do.
e: anyone who agrees with d) is immoral.

thats what i thought this discussion was about.


----------



## 118118 (May 11, 2007)

> But if I pretend I originated the words myself, well, that's a different ball game isn't it? That's a fraud on my audience or readers, and not a nice way of relating to them at all. Naturally, they don't like it.


wrt my incidence of "plagerism", i wasn't trying to pass off a single word that was someone else's as my own. it was more that i was unsure if i had changed enough words. goes to show that the entire concept is flawed.


----------



## gracious (May 11, 2007)

> Translation: Life isn't fair, so i'm going to fuck you over." I'll say the same the next time you accept a job because of 'talent'.



Being able to cheat and get away with it is a talent. It's evidence of certain type of intelligence/understanding of people which is very valuable in a lot of professions! 

If we are talking about a random degree at uni (i.e. not vocational, which is clearly the sort of essays this thread was originally about) and then going on to get a random job in business or government... well being able to work the system and get a job done to everyone's satisfaction quickly and with minimal effort is a much more useful skill than being able to write essays (which are, incidentally, an incredibly bad way of communicating - hence they are never used in the business world)

Personally, I always write my own stuff because I have ideas and I like to spout them! But I have no qualms about the fact I have been flirting on email with one of my tutors and he is going to write me an amazing reference and give me a good mark.


----------



## equationgirl (May 11, 2007)

Cheating is not a valuable skill in the majority of jobs.

Flirting your way through a degree isn't going to work in the real world - people will get tired of it pretty quickly.


----------



## Roadkill (May 11, 2007)

Reactionary I may be, but I'm coming to think that universities should adopt a zero tolerance approach to deliberate plagiarism: no warnings, no second chances, just instant chucking-out.  Students might take it a bit mroe seriously then.


----------



## Guineveretoo (May 11, 2007)

I haven't finished reading the thread yet, but I just have to point out that none of you seem to be able to spell plagiarism! It has an i after the g, folks 

Right, now I have got that off my chest, I will continue reading the thread. So far, I am getting an impression that you have different understandings of the meaning of the word, too!


----------



## Bob_the_lost (May 11, 2007)

gracious said:
			
		

> If we are talking about a random degree at uni (i.e. not vocational, which is clearly the sort of essays this thread was originally about) and then going on to get a random job in business or government... well being able to work the system and get a job done to everyone's satisfaction quickly and with minimal effort is a much more useful skill than being able to write essays (which are, incidentally, an incredibly bad way of communicating - hence they are never used in the business world)


Not sure i agree.

Example: Coursework for one of my modules, logical way to do it was to take an example from our labs and hack, slash and rework the code to make something completely different. Cos that's how you'd do it in the real world. Anyone who tried to build the same project from nothing would waste hours doing it for no benifit. The coursework itself helped to develop the ability to work the system in a sensible manner.

Another example: We had to write an analysis of the Cell Microprocessor. It would have been simple enough to C&P from various websites or just rewrite one in my own words. However if i end up in a situation where i was trying to do something new, like evaluating the buisness oportunities and weakneses of instant messenger programs for a company, there may not be any thing to C&P from, or more likely anything i find would be tangental to the issue requiring the skills i should have been practicing earlier. Without experience doing research and reports i'm pretty sure it'd be an inferior document. Reports and essays are two sides of the same coin (or the same side depending on outlook).

Unless you're going to say that humanities subjects do not give you any reusable skills then i think you're wrong and that similar examples can be found by those who have done the subjects in at least some carreers that demand the degree.

By doing coursework and getting good grades you're supposed to demonstrate the above skills as well as practice them. By plagarising you lie to future employers about your abilities.


----------



## Guineveretoo (May 11, 2007)

Guineveretoo said:
			
		

> I haven't finished reading the thread yet, but I just have to point out that none of you seem to be able to spell plagiarism! It has an i after the g, folks
> 
> Right, now I have got that off my chest, I will continue reading the thread. So far, I am getting an impression that you have different understandings of the meaning of the word, too!



How ironic that I posted this up so that it came immediately after the only post in the entire thread which had the correct spelling of plagiarism in it


----------



## Guineveretoo (May 11, 2007)

Having now read the entire thread, I am becoming increasingly convinced that 118118 doesn't understand what plagiarism is. 

Simply, it is copying someone else's work and then passing it off as one's own. If you didn't do that, or didn't realise that you were doing that, then you were not plagiarising. 

The thread otherwise descends into a very confusing muddle where 118118 appears to think his illness is being belittled or disregarded, but the rest of you are actually focussing on whether or not plagiarism is ever acceptable, and not making any particular mention of his illness.

Just to add my twopennorth - it is my view that plagiarism is never acceptable. However, I am not convinced that 118118 was correctly accused of plagiarism.


----------



## pembrokestephen (May 11, 2007)

118118 said:
			
		

> i stand by that plagerism isn't immoral in an immoral system.


In an theoretical, utterly morally relativistic situation, that might be true. But if you incorporate that attitude into any real life situation, you are effectively legitimising plagiarism. And all plagiarism can EVER do is to further undermine - and unmoralise (not to mention demoralise) - a system.

Plagiarism is, in its way, even worse than stealing: stealing deprives the rightful owner of his property; plagiarism doesn't do that, but it does deprive the plagiarist of that part of his developmental process that would have taken place if he'd done the work rather than lifting someone else's.

You might have had an excuse for "accidentally" plagiarising someone's work, 118118, but that's a far cry from in any way legitimising either your plagiarism or plagiarism in general.

Interesting aside: two students in the year below me in my subject were hauled in for the Big Chat, after handing in almost identical essays. It turned out that one of them had asked the other for "a look at hers before we hand them in", and had copied the piece wholesale. I don't know what the upshot was - the main aspect of the story was the issue of how to prove whose was the original, which was done and fairly so - they looked at both parties' writing styles in previous work and were apparently clearly able to distinguish which was which.

But as for the plagiarist - well, if I had been on the board, I wouldn't have chucked her off for plagiarising; no, I'd have thrown her out for being evidently far too fucking stupid to be sitting a GCSE in Finding Her Arse With Both Hands And An Atlas, far less a degree - fancy handing in a direct lift of another student in the same tutor group's work, for the same assignment, quite possibly likely to be marked by the same person. Idiot.


----------



## pembrokestephen (May 11, 2007)

Balbi said:
			
		

> I know a bloke who wrote 4000 words of his pharmacology dissertation in the three hours before the deadline. He didn't plagarise. If you have to, you're a fucking cunt.
> 
> That's not an argument, that's the facts


Nobody HAS to plagiarise.

I wrote 6000 words of an academic submission in about six hours overnight for someone else a long time ago,  and it got an "A" (it wasn't big, or clever - and I wouldn't consider doing it again, but karma won out in the end, as she did no other work and scraped a pass with a Third). Plagiarism is for people who aren't only incompetent to bullshit for a few hours on their chosen subject, but who are too stupid to realise that they WILL get caught, and that the nature of the offence is one in which there really aren't any extenuating circumstances.


----------



## phildwyer (May 11, 2007)

pembrokestephen said:
			
		

> Nobody HAS to plagiarise.
> 
> I wrote 6000 words of an academic submission in about six hours overnight for someone else a long time ago,  and it got an "A" (it wasn't big, or clever - and I wouldn't consider doing it again, but karma won out in the end, as she did no other work and scraped a pass with a Third).



You shouldn't admit this in public.  They take people's degrees away for this.


----------



## Bob_the_lost (May 11, 2007)

phildwyer said:
			
		

> You shouldn't admit this in public.  They take people's degrees away for this.


Odds of anyone tracking this post down, finding the student in question, finding the paper in question, proving it and then taking away his degree is slightly less than the odds of me making it into space at some point.


----------



## pembrokestephen (May 11, 2007)

118118 said:
			
		

> we're from different worlds. i expect you are planning to become an academic/something high powered from the sounds of it. i am "ill" or whatever for the rest of my life. go figure, subversion is all i have.


Bollocks.

There's a rather well-known psychiatrist who decided to become one while sitting in an acute psychiatric ward being treated (or perhaps not) for schizophrenia.

Rare, perhaps, and requiring huge personal strength, but he did it. So to characterise the situation of someone with schizophrenia as having only subversion (and I'd challenge the idea that plagiarism could ever be an effective form of subversion in any case) is not just rather self-indulgent, but WRONG.


----------



## phildwyer (May 11, 2007)

Bob_the_lost said:
			
		

> Odds of anyone tracking this post down, finding the student in question, finding the paper in question, proving it and then taking away his degree is slightly less than the odds of me making it into space at some point.



Yeah you're probably right.  Its still an unnecessary risk to take though.  I don't think people who plagiarize are always aware of how serious the consequences of getting caught are.


----------



## equationgirl (May 11, 2007)

Guineveretoo said:
			
		

> The thread otherwise descends into a very confusing muddle where 118118 appears to think his illness is being belittled or disregarded, but the rest of you are actually focussing on whether or not plagiarism is ever acceptable, and not making any particular mention of his illness.
> 
> Just to add my twopennorth - it is my view that plagiarism is never acceptable. However, I am not convinced that 118118 was correctly accused of plagiarism.



The first post he made was bragging about him being a plagiarist.

It wasn't until later on that he said he'd done it because of the schizophrenia.

Surely these are two separate issues though, rather than the single issue 118118 was trying (and failing to convince us it was).

Clarification was sought from 118118 many many times, yet each time another unconnected post was made.


----------



## pembrokestephen (May 11, 2007)

phildwyer said:
			
		

> You shouldn't admit this in public.  They take people's degrees away for this.


Not mine, they won't. And I'd have to tell someone who they were, and since I haven't identified the subject, university, year, country, name of student, or just about anything else, they might have a spot of bother tracking them down. Not to mention tracking me down first.


----------



## phildwyer (May 11, 2007)

pembrokestephen said:
			
		

> Not mine, they won't.



Oh yes they would.  Writing a plagiarized essay for someone is just as serious as turning one in.  Again, many plagiarists aren't aware of this.


----------



## pembrokestephen (May 11, 2007)

phildwyer said:
			
		

> Oh yes they would.  Writing a plagiarized essay for someone is just as serious as turning one in.  Again, many plagiarists aren't aware of this.


*enormous big yawn*


----------



## phildwyer (May 11, 2007)

pembrokestephen said:
			
		

> *enormous big yawn*



Look, I've no problem if you want to write plaigiarized essays, or even turn them in as your own work.  But don't suggest to people that its not dangerous, because its bloody dangerous.


----------



## pembrokestephen (May 11, 2007)

phildwyer said:
			
		

> Look, I've no problem if you want to write plaigiarized essays, or even turn them in as your own work.  But don't suggest to people that its not dangerous, because its bloody dangerous.


Care to point out where I have suggested to anyone that it's "not dangerous".

You're doing your usual stunt of working yourself up into a lathery frenzy about something someone *hasn't actually said* AGAIN, Dwyer.

It is boring.


----------



## Gmart (May 11, 2007)

One of the guys on my Economics degree cheated all the way through the course. We all knew it but we didn't dobb him in because we liked him.

I don't know if it got him anywhere, I would suggest that he probably got a job which he thus didn't deserve to get, but which he might well have managed to learn how to do whilst he was there, and he would have got some good experience. 

This is how the system is. It is set up for tests and coursework esp is abused because people know how important it is to do well and are basically lazy. They won't be able to STAY in a job unless they can do it tho, so i really don't judge this too harshly.

the same goes for copying essays etc. This is the world we created and it is up to the employers to weed out the bad employees. Thus no problem. One could moralise about how it's unfair on the guy who didn't cheat, but everyone makes their own decisions and if he/she has worked hard they will get on in life too!!


----------



## phildwyer (May 11, 2007)

pembrokestephen said:
			
		

> Care to point out where I have suggested to anyone that it's "not dangerous".



Well you admitted to plagiarism and then didn't seem concerned when the danger was pointed out to you.  You're not the only one either.  I call it madness.


----------



## phildwyer (May 11, 2007)

Gmarthews said:
			
		

> One of the guys on my Economics degree cheated all the way through the course. We all knew it but we didn't dobb him in because we liked him.
> 
> I don't know if it got him anywhere, I would suggest that he probably got a job which he thus didn't deserve to get, but which he might well have managed to learn how to do whilst he was there, and he would have got some good experience.
> 
> ...



All true.  There's just one problem though.  If you *do* get caught, and I know that is unlikely, but if you *do* get caught, it will very effectively ruin your entire life.  Not worth the risk imo.


----------



## gracious (May 11, 2007)

> Cheating is not a valuable skill in the majority of jobs.
> 
> Flirting your way through a degree isn't going to work in the real world - people will get tired of it pretty quickly.



equationgirl you are incredibly dogmatic, have you not considered that some things that are considered 'cheating' in academia are perfectly acceptable in the work place, and are a good way of getting things done? 

similarly, i never said that i was going to flirt my way through my degree, all im saying is that a little bit of banter and a little bit of flirtation sometimes greases the wheels and gets things done.. sometimes hard work and intelligence work better with a little bit of extra, and the line between cheating and being "creative" in re-interpreting the rules (as it was called in a management course i went on) is very hard to draw. 

to be honest, i think its you that's not living in the real world, if you don't know that that is how business works.


----------



## gracious (May 11, 2007)

> if i end up in a situation where i was trying to do something new, like evaluating the buisness oportunities and weakneses of instant messenger programs for a company, there may not be any thing to C&P from, or more likely anything i find would be tangental to the issue requiring the skills i should have been practicing earlier



right, i am not advocating going to university and wasting a whole load of time and money by not picking up useful skills... im just saying that one useful skill is being resourceful at finding sources and ways of getting the job done...


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## jæd (May 11, 2007)

gracious said:
			
		

> equationgirl you are incredibly dogmatic, have you not considered that some things that are considered 'cheating' in academia are perfectly acceptable in the work place, and are a good way of getting things done?
> 
> ...
> 
> to be honest, i think its you that's not living in the real world, if you don't know that that is how business works.



Different jobs require different skills. I'm not sure how I could flirt and cheat my way to getting a backend system running...


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## Gmart (May 11, 2007)

phildwyer said:
			
		

> All true.  There's just one problem though.  If you *do* get caught, and I know that is unlikely, but if you *do* get caught, it will very effectively ruin your entire life.  Not worth the risk imo.



Sure it's a big risk, but the whole of life is a risk, and you're hardly gonna screw it up completely. I mean there are always options and so many take the chance.

Ideally we should have a better system with more equality of opportunity and better exams/coursework. Still people will always try and cheat, I once saw a nature programme about this bear that could have waited at the top of the waterfall to catch a salmon along with all the other bears. It was really easy, but he chose to wait until another bear had done the work for him and then tried to nick it. It's nature and all we can do is try to create a system which mitigates the worst effects.


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## gracious (May 11, 2007)

yeah, but could you buy an essay online that you could hand in and blag being able to do that with? 

we are talking about essay based non-vocational courses here... 

and, yes, i think flirting with IT support is one of the most important moves a person like me who is a heavy user of IT can do. i make a point of having at least 2 or 3 friends in IT... not difficult, they are usually some of the safest people around... mostly cos they don't pretend/do business flirting/try and schmooze...


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## Guineveretoo (May 11, 2007)

equationgirl said:
			
		

> The first post he made was bragging about him being a plagiarist.
> 
> It wasn't until later on that he said he'd done it because of the schizophrenia.
> 
> ...



I did see his first post, where he stated that he had been caught plagiarising, but I honestly didn't think he understood what the term meant.

I also saw his strange ramblings and insult throwing, all of which was very confusing, but also lead me to think that he may have misunderstood what was being said about plagiarism!

Maybe I am wrong, and he does understand exactly what plagiarism means and is boasting about having done it. I am not sure we will ever know 

And yes, they are separate issues. My twopennorth was to agree with you about plagiarism being unacceptable.


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## pembrokestephen (May 11, 2007)

phildwyer said:
			
		

> *Well you admitted to plagiarism and then didn't seem concerned when the danger was pointed out to you*.  You're not the only one either.  I call it madness.


Well, I think that's a very subjective interpretation of what I wrote. I made it very clear that it wasnt big or clever, and that I'd never do it again - I don't think, short of plastering the entire post with pious denials, that I could have made the point that I didn't consider it valid or reasonable any more emphatically.

I might just point out, while we're on about it, that I committed no act of plagiarism. The piece I wrote was original work. What the other party chose to do with it was another question altogether. Ethically, what I did was wrong: but in terms of the definition of "plagiarism", what I did wasn't.

Nonetheless, I suspect that you have, as usual, overreached yourself in trying desperately to paint posts I've made in a light other than the one that most normal people would see them in, and are now trying frantically to avoid having to admit you're wrong.

My comments regarding the "danger" I might have been in stand. You are welcome to run around the place playing semantic games in order to try and demonstrate that, as usual, you are never, ever wrong. Forgive me if I don't bother to join in.


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## equationgirl (May 11, 2007)

gracious said:
			
		

> equationgirl you are incredibly dogmatic, have you not considered that some things that are considered 'cheating' in academia are perfectly acceptable in the work place, and are a good way of getting things done?
> 
> similarly, i never said that i was going to flirt my way through my degree, all im saying is that a little bit of banter and a little bit of flirtation sometimes greases the wheels and gets things done.. sometimes hard work and intelligence work better with a little bit of extra, and the line between cheating and being "creative" in re-interpreting the rules (as it was called in a management course i went on) is very hard to draw.
> 
> to be honest, i think its you that's not living in the real world, if you don't know that that is how business works.



I work in intellectual property where I encounter many people trying to cheat the system. Funnily enough they don't win. Cheating is not viewed as ethical business behaviour in my sector.

And maybe I prefer to be judged on my merits and respected by my peers for geting a job done well, rather than by flirting my way through. In a male dominated environment, respect and reputation gets you a lot more than a bit of casual flirting.

But hey, what do I know?


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## jæd (May 11, 2007)

equationgirl said:
			
		

> Cheating is not viewed as ethical business behaviour in my sector.



I don't think its seen as ethical in any business sector... Its the difference between being a professional compared to being some random guy off the street...


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## equationgirl (May 11, 2007)

That's what I think too, jaed


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## 118118 (May 11, 2007)

you mean, a cog in a corrupt systmen, and a worker?


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## 118118 (May 11, 2007)

anyway mo fwiw: i'm abivalent, but personally wouldn't do it cos i like to feel competent. i certianly wouldn't care if a friend of mine did. if all the course students did and didn't tell me, i wopuld resent them tho.


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## 118118 (May 11, 2007)

and i should change that to 'willing cog in the system' and worker.


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## pembrokestephen (May 11, 2007)

118118 said:
			
		

> you mean, a cog in a corrupt systmen, and a worker?


118, this isn't political. Cheating (which plagiarism always is) isn't subverting a corrupt system, it's adding corruption to corruption.

If you truly want to subvert the system, you plagiarise, announce to all and sundry that you are, and defy them to punish you for it. Anything else is trying to gain an advantage at the expense of your peers - who are, after all, labouring under the same corrupt system - and aiming to end up with the same qualification as them, but with less skills.


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## jæd (May 11, 2007)

118118 said:
			
		

> anyway mo fwiw: i'm abivalent, but personally wouldn't do it cos i like to feel competent. i certianly wouldn't care if a friend of mine did. if all the course students did and didn't tell me, i wopuld resent them tho.



You've already admitted to it... Ho-hum...


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## 118118 (May 11, 2007)

another one who doesn't understand basic academic or psychollgical concepts. stop roilling your eyes at me. it's somewhere between arrogance and conceit, and i'm not happy about it.


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## 118118 (May 11, 2007)

pembrokestephen said:
			
		

> 118, this isn't political. Cheating (which plagiarism always is) isn't subverting a corrupt system, it's adding corruption to corruption.
> 
> If you truly want to subvert the system, you plagiarise, announce to all and sundry that you are, and defy them to punish you for it. Anything else is trying to gain an advantage at the expense of your peers - who are, after all, labouring under the same corrupt system - and aiming to end up with the same qualification as them, but with less skills.


no that would be rebellion. subversion acts indirectly.


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## 118118 (May 11, 2007)

ok, you think that individual academic excellence and rweward is something that will always be valuable. i disagree, as i've said to equationgirl. not sure if that's exectly what i mean, but :-/


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## jæd (May 11, 2007)

118118 said:
			
		

> another one who doesn't understand basic academic or psychollgical concepts. stop roilling your eyes at me. it's somewhere between arrogance and conceit, and i'm not happy about it.



Basic academic concept: your copying someone else's work and passing it off as your own is wrong. 

Basic psychollgical (sic) concept: everyone on the board had sympathy for you, but now they think you're a numpty...!

If you can't understand these then you don't deserve to pass the course...


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## 118118 (May 11, 2007)

what, snap? i don't really care for sympthy, or respect academia (after this conversation. middle class etc.)


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## 118118 (May 11, 2007)

ps phildwyer: leninist


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## scifisam (May 12, 2007)

Even at secondary education levels, I have always set my own, independent coursework essays. The topic was on books everyone knows that exam board requires, but it was _my_ essay title. 

Aldo, my essay titles often depend on what is done in class, and I know what my students' writing styles are like. 

One of my (bright, but lazy) pupils submitted something that I knew was plagiarised, but as it was a first draft I told him to go and write something that was actually about the question I'd asked, and in a way that I could tell it was his. He did. If he'd submitted it for a final draft, he'd have failed, but as it was, he had a chance to actually do the work. 

His was one of the ones that I hadn't even seen online (because I searched the web for essays on that text), but it was still blindingly obvious.

How can any plagiarist hope to succeed?


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## scifisam (May 12, 2007)

I missed a couple of pages of this thread. 

118118 is training to be a doctor and thinks it's OK to cheat - I just hope you never treat me or mine. Would you want your loved ones, or even yourself, to be treated by someone that you know might just Google for info and let others do the work?

I wish someone else on here knew you in real life, because you'd be in deep shit. Hopefully you know that and are just bulllshitting.


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## Gmart (May 12, 2007)

scifisam said:
			
		

> 118118 is training to be a doctor and thinks it's OK to cheat - I just hope you never treat me or mine. Would you want your loved ones, or even yourself, to be treated by someone that you know might just Google for info and let others do the work?



Obviously people fear being treated by a doctor who has done this, but that is why we have examinations and training on the job with qualified staff. If there was a problem then our system would pick it up and would highlight the need for re-training, or sacking.


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## Guineveretoo (May 12, 2007)

scifisam said:
			
		

> I missed a couple of pages of this thread.
> 
> *118118 is training to be a doctor *and thinks it's OK to cheat - I just hope you never treat me or mine. Would you want your loved ones, or even yourself, to be treated by someone that you know might just Google for info and let others do the work?
> 
> I wish someone else on here knew you in real life, because you'd be in deep shit. Hopefully you know that and are just bulllshitting.



Really? I missed that bit! I thought he was saying that it would not be acceptable for doctors to plagiarise, but okay for others.

The problem is that his posts are rambling and difficult to follow....


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## jæd (May 12, 2007)

Guineveretoo said:
			
		

> Really? I missed that bit! I thought he was saying that it would not be acceptable for doctors to plagiarise, but okay for others.
> 
> The problem is that his posts are rambling and difficult to follow....



I hope he never makes it to be a doctor... But then... To be a doc you need to be quite bright, and so far 118118 hasn't shown this...

But, with other plagiarists, the only person he is cheating will be himself... Ho-hum...


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## Bob_the_lost (May 12, 2007)

No, i think 118118 was training to be a doctor, got rather far through the process and decided to change course. He's now doing / done (?) another degree in a humanities subject i believe.


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## Guineveretoo (May 12, 2007)

Bob_the_lost said:
			
		

> No, i think 118118 was training to be a doctor, got rather far through the process and decided to change course. He's now doing / done (?) another degree in a humanities subject i believe.



Good grief!


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## gracious (May 12, 2007)

> I don't think its seen as ethical in any business sector...



Paying someone to research for you and then not quoting them in the presentation is seen as ethical behaviour in many consulting type places - afterall if you've paid for that research, in business that means you own it and can do what you like with it. 

I'm just saying the boundaries of what is cheating is different in the real world than it is in academia, and sometimes to get along in business you need to use the sort of skills that would be called "cheating" in academia. 

And equationgirl, you are still being incredibly dogmatic, and you also seem to be implying that because I think that networking/socialising/making work related friends/flirting a little helps you get along that I dont have a good reputation and solid skills at my job. If that's what you think, you are wrong.


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## Aldebaran (May 12, 2007)

118118 said:
			
		

> anyway, i've seen no evidence that plagerism is a terrible thing.



Plagiarising someone's work is stealing someone's intellectual property.
Since you don't think stealing is "terrible", I suspect you wouldn't care if everything you have is taken from you and you would not file a complaint if you knew who did it. 

salaam.


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## subversplat (May 12, 2007)

Aldebaran said:
			
		

> Plagiarising someone's work is stealing someone's intellectual property.
> Since you don't think stealing is "terrible", I suspect you wouldn't care if everything you have is taken from you and you would not file a complaint if you knew who did it.
> 
> salaam.


Plagiarising is _not_ stealing. In the particular example of this thread someone is being paid for writing an essay; oftentimes people willingly lend their old essays to friends or siblings for them to copy - there is no abuse of IP in any of these situations, just abuse of the academic honour-based system.

Copyright infringement is copyright infringement, and belongs on the other thread over there --->


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## Bob_the_lost (May 12, 2007)

subversplat (Corrected version in bold) said:
			
		

> Plagiarising is not *always* stealing.


Still imoral


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## Aldebaran (May 12, 2007)

subversplat said:
			
		

> Plagiarising is _not_ stealing.



Of course it is.



> In the particular example of this thread someone is being paid for writing an essay; oftentimes people willingly lend their old essays to friends or siblings for them to copy - there is no abuse of IP in any of these situations, just abuse of the academic honour-based system.



That is not plagiarising, properly. 
The first is a business transaction.
The second is a gift which by its nature and proposed use automatically includes the owner's renouncement of intellectual property rights. In fact: the intellectual property is also offered to the receiver. 

The problem with this - as it also is with genuine plagiarism -  is not "academic honour" but the stealing of the thus gained academic evaluation/reward. Which is a robbery done on the education system. Which is theft.



> Copyright infringement is copyright infringement, and belongs on the other thread over there --->



We aren't even talking about copyrights.

salaam.


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## Jonti (May 12, 2007)

I prefer to use the word "steal" to mean "deprive of property".

Copyright violations, plagiarism and the like don't actually remove what is "stolen" from the possession of the victim.

PS The present state of English law is that plagiarism is automatically *also* a copyright violation.  This is because what we write or create is now automatically copyright of the author. In other words, one no longer has to actively assert copyright over one's writings. This change in the law happened fairly recently.

ETA: I should be clear this is assuming the original author has *not* given their consent.


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## Hocus Eye. (May 12, 2007)

Jonti said:
			
		

> I prefer to use the word "steal" to mean "deprive of property".
> 
> Copyright violations, plagiarism and the like don't actually remove what is "stolen" from the possession of the victim.
> 
> PS The present state of English law is that plagiarism is automatically *also* a copyright violation.  This is because what we write or create is now automatically copyright of the author. In other words, one no longer has to actively assert copyright over one's writings. This change in the law happened fairly recently.



Well 'recently' in the grand scheme of things, but it was 1886 when the Berne Convention established it.


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## Jonti (May 12, 2007)

Yes, that's right. And various countries -- not all -- have signed up to the Berne convention since.  The USA as recently as 1989; China and Sweden not at all.

What I was saying is that in the UK, I think within the last ten years, the way one asserts copyright has been changed.  

Previously, one had to actively assert one's copyright, or it simply wouldn't exist. One had at least to affix a copyright notice to the work, and (I think) also register it with some institution.

That has changed.  This post, for example, is automatically my copyright. There's nothing I have to do or say to claim copyright privileges over this arrangement of words.


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## Aldebaran (May 13, 2007)

Jonti said:
			
		

> I prefer to use the word "steal" to mean "deprive of property".



If you fraudulent obtain an academic degree you enrich yourself at the cost of the tax payer. 
You steal what isn't yours to have from the State, using for this the university as part of the State's educational system which is funded by the country's tax payers to make its implementation and functioning possible.   
Would you steal such a degree from a totally privately funded university you steal it from its shareholders. 
All of which is theft by fraude.

Using such a fraudulent degree for accepting a job requiring the academic qualification you fraudulently obtained has the consequence that the job is unavailable from someone who obtained the degree according its requirements. Which is theft by fraude. 



> Copyright violations, plagiarism and the like don't actually remove what is "stolen" from the possession of the victim.



It does remove the uniqueness of the intellectual property, if the violation is discovered or not. Restauration most of the time requires use of the legal system. Every cost thereof for the owner and even every minute of his time is stolen by default by the abuser.   



> PS The present state of English law is that plagiarism is automatically *also* a copyright violation.  This is because what we write or create is now automatically copyright of the author. In other words, one no longer has to actively assert copyright over one's writings. This change in the law happened fairly recently.



That is not what is discussed. 
If I write something and give it to you to use as you wish, I automatically renounce my copyright and hand that also over to you.  If as consequence you fraudulently obtain an academic degree you are the sole responsible for stealing that degree with use of my work. Unless you can prove otherwise.

salaam.


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## equationgirl (May 13, 2007)

Jonti said:
			
		

> Yes, that's right. And various countries -- not all -- have signed up to the Berne convention since.  The USA as recently as 1989; China and Sweden not at all.
> 
> What I was saying is that in the UK, I think within the last ten years, the way one asserts copyright has been changed.
> 
> ...



Well, you still have to indicate the work is a copyright work, usually by (c).


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## 118118 (May 13, 2007)

> I suspect you wouldn't care if everything you have is taken from you and you would not file a complaint if you knew who did it.





> The problem with this - as it also is with genuine plagiarism - is not "academic honour" but the stealing of the thus gained academic evaluation/reward. Which is a robbery done on the education system. Which is theft.


hmm lol.

anyway, what if i was poor and i needed a loaf of bread to feed my family?



> imoral


Ahh i'm stealing form the great british public! ok, you got me, its about as immoral as minor benefit fraud. personally it makes me laugh that you are such a petty man that you use words like 'immoral' in such situations, mostly it would seem to validate your own worth as an academic, rather than any awful consequences.


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## equationgirl (May 13, 2007)

Stealing a loaf of bread is not quite the same as plagiarising an essay.


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## 118118 (May 13, 2007)

why?


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## equationgirl (May 13, 2007)

Because you're equating a steal-or-starve situation with a situation that isn't life or death.


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## 118118 (May 13, 2007)

yeah whatever. its touching that you think that the vast number of people, their job dosn't make them wish they were dead.


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## Jonti (May 13, 2007)

Aldebaran said:
			
		

> If you fraudulent obtain an academic degree you enrich yourself at the cost of the tax payer.
> You steal what isn't yours to have from the State, using for this the university as part of the State's educational system which is funded by the country's tax payers to make its implementation and functioning possible...


The word "fraud" covers this sort of thing, so why obscure the issue by using an inaccurate term? Heck, you'll be calling plagiarists "idea rustlers" next! Theft refers to depriving a person of their property.

I strongly disagree that ideas can "belong" to any person.


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## equationgirl (May 13, 2007)

118118 said:
			
		

> yeah whatever. its touching that you think that the vast number of people, their job dosn't make them wish they were dead.



Eh?


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## equationgirl (May 13, 2007)

Jonti said:
			
		

> The word "fraud" covers this sort of thing. Theft refers to depriving a person of their property.
> 
> I strongly disagree that ideas can "belong" to any person.



Intellectual property law does not cover the ownership of ideas, it covers the expression of that idea.

Anyone can have an idea.


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## Jonti (May 13, 2007)

I'm afraid that although that is a rational view, it is not a legal view.

Software patents, for example, attempt to give ownership of the idea to the patent holder.  A coder can come up with the idea completely independently, and express it in entirely in their own code. Yet still be committing a crime (in the USA).  The same is true of "business process patents".

I agree this is a nonsense, and a deep attack on freedom of thought and expression, but that's the state of the game right now.

For more info on the European position ...  http://www.nosoftwarepatents.com/en/m/intro/index.html


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## equationgirl (May 13, 2007)

That is the legal view -  a pure idea cannot be protected.

For a patent to be granted, the invention must be novel (new), inventive (non-obvious) and have utility (it must been reduced to practice).

An idea may be new or inventive but unless it has been reduced to practice it would not be patentable, and, if it has been reduced to practice it would no longer be just an idea.

For information on the European patent law position go to:

http://www.epo.org/focus/issues/computer-implemented-inventions.html


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## Jonti (May 13, 2007)

However a patent is granted, whatever fine words are used, if coder can come up with the idea completely independently, express it in entirely in their own code, and still be committing a crime, then the idea itself, not the expression, has been monopolised.

I agree the position in Europe is far better than in the USA, but it's been a fight to keep things that way, and the fight is not yet over.


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## equationgirl (May 14, 2007)

The US patent position is completely different to the European (and indeed most of the rest of the world) position.

A coder or company would only be committing a crime in the US if they were manufacturing, selling or distributing the code in the US. Plus their code would have to have all the features of the first claim of the patent to be considered infringing.

Also, as the US operates a first to invent system rather than a first to file, if the coder could prove (through the use of countersigned lab books) that they were the first to invent, there would be no infringement.

Also, I think there's an exclusion under UK copyright law if you come up with the same copyright work independently of someone else. But I'd have to check that.

Most software tends be protected under copyright laws anyway as copyright gives a longer protection term that a patent, and the algorithms can be kept secret. Plus there is no requirement to show a technical contribution as there is under patent law.


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## Jonti (May 14, 2007)

If a coder who comes up with the idea completely independently, and expresses it in entirely in their own code, is committing a crime, then the idea itself has been monopolised.  

Yes, it's my understanding as well, that it is a valid defense to an allegation of copyright infringement to show that the work was, despite appearances, originated independently.

What you wrote "the US operates a first to invent system rather than a first to file" could be taken by some to imply prior art does not apply in Europe.  But it does, as the Indian case against the EPO demonstrates (link)

I know we've beaten back the attempt to introduce software patents in Europe, but you may still find this letter from Donald Knuth to the USPO of interest, if you have not already seen it.


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## equationgirl (May 14, 2007)

That sentence does not imply that prior art does not count in Europe.

If anything, the US system is actually set up (thanks to a quick fix legal amendment that has created inconsistencies) to exclude prior art that does not have US filing date.

That link looks interesting, I'll read it tomorrow (it'll count as work).


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## Jonti (May 14, 2007)

equationgirl said:
			
		

> ...Most software tends be protected under copyright laws anyway as copyright gives a longer protection term that a patent, and the algorithms can be kept secret. Plus there is no requirement to show a technical contribution as there is under patent law.


These are *not* the reasons why the Linux kernel, and other GPL code, is protected by copyright rather than patents.

I am very happy to explain more fully later, but it's time for bed for me!


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## equationgirl (May 14, 2007)

Please do, i always thought Linux was opensource.


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## Jonti (May 14, 2007)

Yes, it is open-source.  The binaries (the executable instructions expressed in machine-code for for the diverse processor architectures) are licensed for use under the GNU General Public License.  Notice that the license has teeth only in jurisdictions which have (Berne-style) copyright legislation  

More later.


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## scifisam (May 14, 2007)

Gmarthews said:
			
		

> Obviously people fear being treated by a doctor who has done this, but that is why we have examinations and training on the job with qualified staff. If there was a problem then our system would pick it up and would highlight the need for re-training, or sacking.



Unfortunately, some of that on-the-job training would involve treating patients. If they get away with it for a while, a lot of people could suffer.




			
				Bob_the_lost said:
			
		

> No, i think 118118 was training to be a doctor, got rather far through the process and decided to change course. He's now doing / done (?) another degree in a humanities subject i believe.



I'm really glad to hear that. I hope he doesn't go back - I wouldn't trust the attitude of someone who thinks cheating's OK; it makes me think they'd also cut corners and be slapdash in their work.


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## pembrokestephen (May 14, 2007)

scifisam said:
			
		

> Unfortunately, some of that on-the-job training would involve treating patients. If they get away with it for a while, a lot of people could suffer.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm really glad to hear that. I hope he doesn't go back - I wouldn't trust the attitude of someone who thinks cheating's OK; it makes me think they'd also cut corners and be slapdash in their work.


Yeah. Some of the scariest thinking is "end justifies the means" thinking...


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## Cakes (May 14, 2007)

pembrokestephen said:
			
		

> ...[plagiarism].. is trying to gain an advantage at the expense of your peers - who are, after all, labouring under the same corrupt system - and aiming to end up with the same qualification as them, but with less skills.



Having read through this whole thread, I would be really interested in what people who defend plagiarism think about this particular point?

Maybe plagiarism is a way of redressing inequalities in ability and opportunity, or an act of defiance against a corrupt system. But do your fellow students deserve to have their own hard work devalued by your decision to cheat?


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## Jonti (May 14, 2007)

> ... i always thought Linux was opensource.


It is a remarkably common misconception that open-source is antithetical to copyright. It's not true, even though I have read articles, in apparently authoritative magazines intended for a business readership, that make this assumption.  Yet a few minutes reading the major opensource license, the GPL, is sufficient to dispel the notion!

Perhaps the explanation is that people who support the GPL and software freedom tend to be acutely aware of the hazards of copyright, and the abuses by corporate interests that are such a prominent part of contemporary cultural life.  There is money in ringfencing ideas and expressions for one's own benefit, and to the detriment of the wider society, most especially if the state can be persuaded to pay its officials and police to enforce this! 

Apart from that, an uncritical acceptance of the notion of copyright can lead to absurd and even dangerous situations.  For example, the dangerous cult of Scientology has aggressively used copyright legislation to prevent people finding out just what it's really about.

If there were no state interference in the free transmission and use of ideas and expressions, then the opensource movement would still be able to function, it's true (although Scientology might not, for it would find itself widely, perhaps fatally, exposed to ridicule).  People would still be free to co-operate with each other, and to share code. But the code they published would likely be taken and used in products and programs which kept their workings hidden from their users.  Copyright allows us to prevent our co-operative efforts being privatised in that way, and kept open for the benefit of everyone, if we so choose.

Not all opensource coders make this choice -- in part it depends on one's purposes.  A remarkably good way to explain a protocol, and to have it coded correctly by everyone, is simply to publish source code that expresses the intended protocol exactly, and allow others to use it without any restriction at all.  Then people and corporates who want to publish their programs in binary form only can just take that source code, and incorporate it into their own source code. The compiled program only (not the source) can be distributed or sold, and although its working are opaque, one can be reasonably certain that the protocols are executed correctly.  There's a fair bit of this sort of "opensource" code in Windows, as it happens (although one cannot demand the source to the MS program, one is of course still free to use the original code that MS has incorporated).


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