# Young woman murdered in Argoed, attacker killed by police taser



## shygirl (Nov 7, 2014)

7 November 2014 Last updated at 13:00

*Cerys Marie Yemm named as Argoed hotel cannibal murder victim*






 Officers found Matthew Williams attacking Cerys Yemm at the hotel
Continue reading the main story
*Related Stories*

Two dead after cannibal attack
Death after Taser fired investigated Watch
'Shock' at two deaths in village Watch
The woman who was murdered in an act of cannibalism has been named as Cerys Marie Yemm.
Officers found Matthew Williams, 34, attacking the 22-year-old in the Sirhowy Arms Hotel, a halfway house for ex offenders in Argoed, a village near Ms Yemm's hometown of Blackwood.
He was stunned with a Taser and arrested at the scene during the early hours of Thursday but later died.
Williams had only recently been released from prison.
The Independent Police Complaints Commission (IPCC) is probing his death.
Gwent Police said Williams was local to the area and the woman was from Blackwood.
The pair are believed to have been in a relationship and the force said it is not looking for anyone else in connection with the incident.
Gareth Griffiths, who lives in Argoed, told BBC Radio 5 Live: "It's not a massive village, everyone wants to know what's happened. Everyone who doesn't want the place to be there thinks it's ammunition to use against the council to get it moved or shifted.
"We hear on the news that it has been cannibalism. Nobody wants to hear that, it must be a horrific way to die, it's horrible, it's unbearable."





 The cordon has been scaled back, but police remained at the scene on Friday





 Flowers have been left outside the hotel where the victim was killed
'Grotesque'
The property where the murder took place is used as temporary accommodation for homeless people.
IPCC Commissioner for Wales, Jan Williams, said: "I would like to express my sincere condolences to the families of the deceased at this sad and difficult time.
"Our investigators are gathering all relevant evidence to understand the full circumstances of what happened."
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Forensic teams have been searching for clues at Sirhowy Arms Hotel in Argoed




BBC Wales reporter Stephen Fairclough in Argoed
People living in the small village of Argoed just north of the town of Blackwood have reacted to the disturbing events at the hotel with shock and disbelief.
The three-storey building where Williams is believed to have murdered the young woman sits in the middle of the village and the centre was a hive of police activity on Thursday as the investigation got under way.
One resident said the murder "is hard to believe in a small, quiet community village like this".
Another described the police scenes as "chaotic" with emergency services vehicles "everywhere".
One woman said: "It's all very upsetting."
Leon Gardiner, a councillor who has lived in the village for more than 80 years, said the killing has "hit the village for six".




Argoed councillor Garry Lewis described the nature of the killing as "grotesque".
Argoed Baptist Chapel secretary June Trace told BBC Wales that the Sirhowy Arms was converted into accommodation for vulnerable people several years ago.
She said it had a "fluctuating population" of people, often aged in their 30s or 40s, who would stay there for a time before moving on.
Despite concerns of some villagers when the plans were first put forward to convert the building, she said there had never been any trouble there.
However, other people living in Argoed said there had been issues at the hostel and police had been called to resolve problems there frequently.
















*More on This Story*


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## shygirl (Nov 7, 2014)

RIP Cerys Yemm.   Its unbearable to contemplate what this young woman endured at the hands of this beast.


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## Gavin Bl (Nov 7, 2014)

just dreadful, poor girl


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## 1927 (Nov 8, 2014)

He obviously had serious issues. How the hell were these not assessed while he was in prison?


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## Geri (Nov 8, 2014)

At least the scumbag is gone, saves the expense of locking him up forever.


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## emanymton (Nov 8, 2014)

It seems that this guy was pretty vile, but let's not ignore the fact that the police have just kill another person with a taser.


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## ginger_syn (Nov 9, 2014)

while you are right to bring up that point, I think if I'd been the policewoman who walked in on what he was doing I would have shocked the he'll out of him to. I feel so sorry for all those touched by this hideous act.


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## davesgcr (Nov 9, 2014)

emanymton said:


> It seems that this guy was pretty vile, but let's not ignore the fact that the police have just kill another person with a taser.



So what should they have done - take him away for a reflective cup of tea. ? , and a quiet chat. The Police have a duty to protect the public. The fact he died from a taser is one thing - but he was not exactly being a good citizen was he...?


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## Geri (Nov 9, 2014)

I read somethere that it was a lone female officer who was first on the scene, if so she would have been at a huge disadvantage physically. The attacker was a drug user so may well have had a weakened heart.


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## maomao (Nov 9, 2014)

_If_ he was in the middle of mutilating/eating someone and _if_ the first officer there didn't know whether the victim was dead or alive then tasering seems a fair enough course of action IMO. And given that mephedrone has documented effects on the circulatory system then I'm not that keen on jumping on this one as police brutality.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 9, 2014)

davesgcr said:


> So what should they have done - take him away for a reflective cup of tea. ? , and a quiet chat. The Police have a duty to protect the public. The fact he died from a taser is one thing - but he was not exactly being a good citizen was he...?


when does someone stop being a member of the public? when did the police get the right to kill nasty people?


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## emanymton (Nov 9, 2014)

It is not just about the individual office involved, but if the police didn't have teasers they could not go around killing, and in some cases torturing, people with them. I may not always like it but we have a system whereby people are arrested and a court decides the guilt or innocence and the appropriate punishment.

ETA: This is another case of a teaser being lethal, and the police are using these horrible things on inocent people and in completely inappropriate situations.


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## dylanredefined (Nov 9, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> when does someone stop being a member of the public? when did the police get the right to kill nasty people?



 Since we had police lethal violence has always been an option for them. Now at least there are guidelines for when they use weapons. They make some stupid mistakes and need to be held a lot more accountable when they get things wrong.


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## 1927 (Nov 9, 2014)

emanymton said:


> It is not just about the individual office involved, but if the police didn't have teasers they could not go around killing, and in some cases torturing, people with them. I may not always like it but we have a system whereby people are arrested and a court decides the guilt or innocence and the appropriate punishment.
> 
> ETA: This is another case of a teaser being lethal, and the police are using these horrible things on inocent people and in completely inappropriate situations.



Without the taser the lone police woman might just have been dessert!


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## Pickman's model (Nov 9, 2014)

dylanredefined said:


> Since we had police lethal violence has always been an option for them. Now at least there are guidelines for when they use weapons. They make some stupid mistakes and need to be held a lot more accountable when they get things wrong.


perhaps we should remove the option of lethal force from them pending  the disbanding of these most partial forces


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## Spymaster (Nov 9, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> when does someone stop being a member of the public?



When he starts eating someone else.



> when did the police get the right to kill nasty people?



They've always had the right to kill people in self defence or the defence of others. Everyone has.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 9, 2014)

1927 said:


> Without the taser the lone police woman might just have been dessert!


and that would have been really bad


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## Pickman's model (Nov 9, 2014)

Spymaster said:


> When he starts eating someone else.


not in fact true




> They've always had the right to kill people in self defence or the defence of others. Everyone has.


so what's their excuse for the 99% of people they kill where that doesn't apply?


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## 1927 (Nov 9, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> and that would have been really bad


Well it would have put a bit of a downer on her day!


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## Spymaster (Nov 9, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> so what's their excuse for the 99% of people they kill where that doesn't apply?



Varying.


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## dylanredefined (Nov 9, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> perhaps we should remove the option of lethal force from them pending  the disbanding of these most partial forces



  Whose going to stop people like this then? If not the police?
   Considering the number of people who are happy to be violent arseholes.  Tasers are great weapons they are less than
lethal coppers should only use them as a last resort though and justify each use.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 9, 2014)

dylanredefined said:


> Whose going to stop people like this then? If not the police?
> Considering the number of people who are happy to be violent arseholes.  Tasers are great weapons they are less than
> lethal coppers should only use them as a last resort though and justify each use.


by less than lethal do you mean they can't in fact kill?


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## ddraig (Nov 10, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> not in fact true
> 
> 
> so what's their excuse for the 99% of people they kill where that doesn't apply?


this bascialy
if they only used against cannibals then maybe fair enough but we know full well they don't


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## ginger_syn (Nov 10, 2014)

true, but what would you have done if you'd been there. because I know I would have done exactly the same as that policewoman, what she saw would cut straight through any thought  of reasonable force to a gut reaction to stop the horror in front of you because no amount of. police training could prepare you for that sight.


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## Dr_Herbz (Nov 10, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> perhaps we should remove the option of lethal force from them pending  the disbanding of these most partial forces


How about removing fuckwits from the police force, rather than removing their ability to deal with a specific situation in an appropriate manner?


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## Pickman's model (Nov 10, 2014)

Dr_Herbz said:


> How about removing fuckwits from the police force, rather than removing their ability to deal with a specific situation in an appropriate manner?


interesting. so you'd disband the force immediately.


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## Dr_Herbz (Nov 10, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> interesting. so you'd disband the force immediately.


Good point... I guess it was akin to asking for dry rain...


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## Citizen66 (Nov 10, 2014)

According to one report I read he used a drug that made him 'see things'. I'm finding it very difficult to muster up any sympathy for him. He's got previous for knocking women about. But it does call into question the claim that tasering people is a safe way of incapacitating them.

RIP Cerys.


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## maomao (Nov 10, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> he used a drug that made him 'see things'.


If it was mephedrone it's well known that that it fucks your circulation. Lots of people ended up with blue knees when they took too much of that.


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## Spymaster (Nov 10, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> According to one report I read he used a drug that made him 'see things'. I'm finding it very difficult to muster up any sympathy for him. He's got previous for knocking women about.



Why would anyone want to muster up any sympathy for this fucker?

I know this is U75, home of the libertarian hand-wringer, but Christ, he killed and scoffed a woman and apparently was still in the act when the police woman arrived.



> But it does call into question the claim that tasering people is a safe way of incapacitating them.



There probably isn't a completely "safe" way to incapacitate someone.

Given that there is occasionally a legitimate need for coppers to restrain people with extreme, non-lethal force, and that the vast majority of folk that are tasered don't actually die, I fully support its use in this case where by some accounts the police woman who used it would quite likely have become a victim too had she not had one.

If there had been an armed response and the first cop on the scene had shot the bastard dead that would have been legitimate too, but there'd be twats on here banging on about "police murderers".

The real failure in the system is not in the use of the taser but in the flawed processes that allowed the cunt out of prison in the first place.

My sympathies are with the victim and the police woman.


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## Dr_Herbz (Nov 10, 2014)

Spymaster said:


> Why would anyone want to muster up any sympathy for this fucker?
> 
> I know this is U75, home of the libertarian hand-wringer, but Christ, he killed and scoffed a woman and was still in the act when the police woman arrived.
> 
> ...



If a member of the public had battered him around the head with a hammer and killed him, he/she would be a hero...


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## Citizen66 (Nov 10, 2014)

Spymaster said:


> Why would anyone want to muster up any sympathy for this fucker?



His relatives and those who knew him prior to becoming a violent wanker might.


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## Citizen66 (Nov 10, 2014)

Dr_Herbz said:


> If a member of the public had battered him around the head with a hammer and killed him, he/she would be a hero...


Are you Statler to Spymaster's Waldorf?


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## Dr_Herbz (Nov 10, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> Are you Statler to Spymaster's Waldorf?


Probably not


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## Spymaster (Nov 10, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> His relatives and those who knew him prior to becoming a violent wanker might.



Then let them.

The rest of us can regard him as a nasty, violent, woman-beating/eating, shitbag who's better off dead.


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## Citizen66 (Nov 10, 2014)

Spymaster said:


> Then let them.
> 
> The rest of us can regard him as a nasty, violent, woman-beating/eating, shitbag who's better off dead.


I'm failing to see where I argued the opposite.


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## Spymaster (Nov 10, 2014)

You didn't. 

Glad we agree.


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## Spymaster (Nov 10, 2014)

dp


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## Citizen66 (Nov 10, 2014)

Spymaster said:


> You didn't.
> 
> Glad we agree.


Executing him without trial 'accidentally' we probably won't agree on. 

Firstly we have the presumption of innocence and right to a fair trial. Secondly we don't have the death penalty. The police circumvented all of that on this occasion.


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## Spymaster (Nov 10, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> Executing him without trial 'accidentally' we probably won't agree on.
> 
> Firstly we have the presumption of innocence and right to a fair trial. Secondly we don't have the death penalty. The police circumvented all of that on this occasion.



This was no execution and by definition you cannot "accidentally" execute someone. It's a deliberate act.

She tasered him whilst he was cannibalising a woman to stop him doing what he was doing.

He died as a result, probably because he was full of mind-altering drugs.

Meh.


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## Ax^ (Nov 10, 2014)

Shame see did not have a gun ehh


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## topher25 (Nov 10, 2014)

Spymaster said:


> dp



Double penrtration?


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## Citizen66 (Nov 10, 2014)

Spymaster said:


> This was no execution and by definition you cannot "accidentally" execute someone.
> 
> She tasered him whilst he was cannibalising a woman to stop him doing what he was doing.
> 
> ...


Well that's what the police said happened. And if there were mitigating factors they would have been considered during his trial.


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## Spymaster (Nov 10, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> Well that's what the police said happened. And if there were mitigating factors they would have been considered during his trial.



Not sure what the possible mitigation would be for murdering and eating a woman but at first blush I'm inclined to commend this brave young officer. Most of us (myself included), confronted by what she was, would likely have made Usain Bolt seem tardy in our exit from the place.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 10, 2014)

Spymaster said:


> Not sure what the possible mitigation would be for murdering and eating a woman but at first blush I'm inclined to commend this brave young officer. Most of us (myself included), confronted by what she was, would likely have made Usain Bolt seem tardy in our exit from the place.


you should put yourself in for britain's most cringing coward 2015


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## Pickman's model (Nov 10, 2014)

Spymaster said:


> This was no execution and by definition you cannot "accidentally" execute someone. It's a deliberate act.
> 
> She tasered him whilst he was cannibalising a woman to stop him doing what he was doing.
> 
> ...


is this coroner spymaster talking or bullshitter spymaster sharing his insights?


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## Spymaster (Nov 10, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> you should put yourself in for britain's most cringing coward 2015



No probs, Pickers.

I'll happily admit to extreme cowardice when it comes to confronting murderous cannibals.


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## Citizen66 (Nov 10, 2014)

Spymaster said:


> Not sure what the possible mitigation would be for murdering and eating a woman but at first blush I'm inclined to commend this brave young officer. Most of us (myself included), confronted by what she was, would likely have made Usain Bolt seem tardy in our exit from the place.


The influence of mind altering drugs could be applied as a mitigating factor. And of course a trial attempts to give an overall view of what happened and apply justice. Killing the alleged offender sans trial means we have only the witness statements to go by which happen to be the police.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 10, 2014)

Spymaster said:


> She tasered him whilst he was cannibalising a woman to stop him doing what he was doing.


while he was jumping over barriers no doubt  do your vestigial critical faculties abandon you when the police spin you a yarn?


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## Spymaster (Nov 10, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> Killing the alleged offender sans trial means we have only the witness statements to go by which happen to be the police.



Unfortunately, yes. 

Oh well ...


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## Dr_Herbz (Nov 10, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> The influence of mind altering drugs could be applied as a mitigating factor. And of course a trial attempts to give an overall view of what happened and apply justice. Killing the alleged offender sans trial means we have only the witness statements to go by which happen to be the police.


Do you think the cop killed him then ate the woman to cover up her fuck-up?


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## topher25 (Nov 10, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> The influence of mind altering drugs could be applied as a mitigating factor. And of course a trial attempts to give an overall view of what happened and apply justice. Killing the alleged offender sans trial means we have only the witness statements to go by which happen to be the police.



Can intoxication be used as mitigation? Blow me over I didn't know that.


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## Ax^ (Nov 10, 2014)

So mentally ill man with a history of volience released from prison without monitoring or sufficient support.

Go off kills someone and is killed by a tazer 

Congratulations all round to the police and prison service 



Fair dos


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## Dr_Herbz (Nov 10, 2014)

Ax^ said:


> So mentally ill man with a history of volience released from prison without monitoring or sufficient support.
> 
> Go off kills someone and is killed by a tazer
> 
> ...


Nah, major fuck up but the cop can't really be held responsible, can she? (P.S... I hate cops more than I hate Pickmans   )


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## Spymaster (Nov 10, 2014)

Ax^ said:


> So mentally ill man with a history of volience released from prison without monitoring or sufficient support.



THIS is the main issue here.


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## hot air baboon (Nov 10, 2014)

...a bizarre and unsettling meme this face-eating cannibal business...usually tied up with a drug-induced rampage -angle

...2 I can think of in America ( where else )

...did I imagine reports / speculation he was on mew-mew ...


*Miami Cannibal Rudy Eugene Wasn't High On Bath Salts When He Ate A Homeless Man's Face*
By James King Wed., Jun. 27 2012

http://blogs.villagevoice.com/runninscared/2012/06/miami_cannibal_3.php

It turns out the "Miami Cannibal" who ate a homeless man's face in Florida last month wasn't under the influence of bath salts at the time of the attack. In fact, the only drug the medical examiner found in his system was marijuana, according to a report released today.

This, in our humble opinion, makes the vicious cannibalistic attack even scarier -- drugs didn't make Rudy Eugene go berserk, he apparently was just a maniac.

In the days following the attack, it was widely suggested that Eugene was under the influence of some sort of drug that prompted his psychotic behavior. Bath salts were the obvious candidate, considering they've been responsible for a number of other bizarre attacks, many of which included the user trying to eat another human being.



*Florida 'Superhuman' Cannibal Shot Dead After Eating Boy's Face*

By Ludovica Iaccino
February 6, 2014 09:14 GMT

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/florida-superhuman-cannibal-shot-dead-after-eating-boys-face-1435316

A naked man was shot dead after eating an 18-year-old's face and assaulting a retired policeman, the Pam Beach Post reported.

The man, who possessed what authorities described as a superhuman-like strength, died Tuesday night during a confrontation with deputies near Delray Beach, Palm Beach County Sheriff Ric Bradshaw said.

The naked man, who had previously assaulted the retired officer who reported serious injuries, attacked the 18-year-old boy near South Military Trail, north of Lake Ida Road.

The teen attempted to defend himself with a box cutter knife. The victim sustained serious injuries during the fight and was taken to Delray Medical Centre. Deputies arriving on the scene tried to calm the attacker and attempted, unsuccessfully, to subdue him with a Taser.



*Indiana man’s naked ‘incense’ induced rampage caught on video*

'This guy's like a ninja, man,' the video's unidentified narrator says as David Martin takes on the cops in Indianapolis. Martin was high on 'Spice,' a synthetic form of cannabis, he later told police.

BY CHRISTINE ROBERTS  NEW YORK DAILY NEWS Sunday, July 1, 2012, 4:48 PM

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nat...nduced-rampage-caught-video-article-1.1105926

Police responding to the scene attempted to subdue the 27-year-old with a stun gun, but the shock had no effect on Martin, who continued to fight the officers with karate-like kicks.

"This guy's like a ninja, man. Holy s--t!" an unidentified narrator says during the clip.

“No way! That guy’s strong, he’s got to be on something,” the narrator adds.


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## Spymaster (Nov 10, 2014)

Dr_Herbz said:


> Do you think the cop killed him then ate the woman to cover up her fuck-up?



No. She killed _Cerys_ then tasered Williams to force him to eat the body. Obviously she had to kill him then lest her dastardly deed be uncovered.

She may still get away with it but DON'T WORRY that canny cynic, Pickman's Model, and a few others on that famously objective website URBAN75, are doing their best to ensure that justice prevails.


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## Bakunin (Nov 10, 2014)

maomao said:


> _If_ he was in the middle of mutilating/eating someone and _if_ the first officer there didn't know whether the victim was dead or alive then tasering seems a fair enough course of action IMO. And given that mephedrone has documented effects on the circulatory system then I'm not that keen on jumping on this one as police brutality.



Neither am I.


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## Citizen66 (Nov 10, 2014)

Dr_Herbz said:


> Do you think the cop killed him then ate the woman to cover up her fuck-up?


It's not about what I think, it's about what a jury thinks - something which won't be happening on this occasion.


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## Citizen66 (Nov 10, 2014)

topher25 said:


> Can intoxication be used as mitigation? Blow me over I didn't know that.


If he was proven to be insane at the time.


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## Spymaster (Nov 10, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> If he was proven to be insane at the time.



Sometimes insane people do insane things (like eating people) and have to be heavily subdued. Unfortunately the take-down is very occasionally going to kill the perpetrator.

Shit happens. As seems the case here.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 10, 2014)

it's precisely these cases which should be very carefully scrutinised as the police like to create precedents with groups or people few people like.


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## Citizen66 (Nov 10, 2014)

Spymaster said:


> Sometimes insane people do insane things (like eating people) and have to be heavily subdued. Unfortunately the take-down is very occasionally going to kill the perpetrator.
> 
> Shit happens. As seems the case here.


And you can't forsee of any possible situations where the police might get it wrong and then lie to cover it up? 

Of course, you'd probably just buy their narrative wholesale: no need for inconvenient factors such as defence barristers or juries.


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## topher25 (Nov 10, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> If he was proven to be insane at the time.



Are you sure about that? I've not heard of voluntary intoxication being used in mitigation before, nor as an aggravating factor.


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## Spymaster (Nov 10, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> And you can't forsee of any possible situations where the police might get it wrong and then lie to cover it up?



Of course. And I'm fully aware of the fact that the default setting on these boards is to assume they did! 



> Of course, you'd probably just buy their narrative wholesale:



I'll "buy" the strength of the case on the evidence at hand.

So far we've got a murdered and partially eaten woman, and a tasered and dead violent criminal. If more evidence comes to hand I may revise my opinion but at this point I'm prepared to go with plod on this one.



> no need for inconvenient factors such as defence barristers or juries.



I'm all for due process but I'm also fine with lethal force (accidental or otherwise) being used where necessary in self defence or that of others. Most reasonable people should be.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 10, 2014)

Spymaster said:


> Of course. And I'm fully aware of the fact that the default setting on these boards is to assume they did!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


yet you'd be the first person sputtering their horlicks on the screen in disgust if this person's story was ever to be tested by a court.


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## Spymaster (Nov 10, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> yet you'd be the first person sputtering their horlicks on the screen in disgust if this person's story was ever to be tested by a court.



Would I?


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## Spymaster (Nov 10, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> it's precisely these cases which should be very carefully scrutinised ...



I'm sure it will be.


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## Citizen66 (Nov 10, 2014)

topher25 said:


> Are you sure about that? I've not heard of voluntary intoxication being used in mitigation before, nor as an aggravating factor.


I think it's whether they were insane at the time of their actions. I don't think they have one box for insanity due to illness and another for insanity due to side effects of drugs. 

I think eating someone's face off strongly suggests being mentally disturbed.


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## xenon (Nov 10, 2014)

If anyone is going to be tasered and if ever there were a justification for the use. This is one of those occasion. Could have been worse if the officer had to subdue him with a truncheon or night stick she may well have ended up in hospital, dead and him getting away.


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## Spymaster (Nov 10, 2014)

xenon said:


> If anyone is going to be tasered and if ever there were a justification for the use. This is one of those occasion.



Pah! Begone with your unthinking acceptance of the police narrative.


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## Citizen66 (Nov 10, 2014)

It's dangerous. You think the police can be forgiven on this occasion based on reports in a newspaper. It doesn't take Einstein to see where that leads.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 10, 2014)

Spymaster said:


> Would I?


yes. no one else here drinks horlicks.


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## Spymaster (Nov 10, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> yes. no one else here drinks horlicks.



Not factually correct. 

I've always been an Ovaltine man.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 10, 2014)

Spymaster said:


> Not factually correct.
> 
> I've always been an Ovaltine man.


trying to relive your ovalteen years


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## xenon (Nov 10, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> It's dangerous. You think the police can be forgiven on this occasion based on reports in a newspaper. It doesn't take Einstein to see where that leads.


You know the thing about difficult unusual cases make for bad law? well I'm not going to frame a scepticism about police and policing around an instance where it seems a violent cannibal,, FFS, ends up being killed whilst being apprehended.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 10, 2014)

xenon said:


> You know the thing about difficult unusual cases make for bad law? well I'm not going to frame a scepticism about police and policing around an instance where it seems a violent cannibal,, FFS, ends up being killed whilst being apprehended.


good for you.


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## Citizen66 (Nov 10, 2014)

xenon said:


> You know the thing about difficult unusual cases make for bad law? well I'm not going to frame a scepticism about police and policing around an instance where it seems a violent cannibal,, FFS, ends up being killed whilst being apprehended.


So the presumption of innocence, right to a fair trial and legal representation shouldn't necessarily apply in all cases?


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## xenon (Nov 10, 2014)

If you think the repots are wholly inaccurate to disguise a case of police brutality. Well. Is little point to this discussion. There will and rightly so be an investigation.


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## xenon (Nov 10, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> So the presumption of innocence, right to a fair trial and legal representation shouldn't necessarily apply in all cases?


Of course it applies. So does the right to self defence. They can't always both win.


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## Citizen66 (Nov 10, 2014)

xenon said:


> If you think the repots are wholly inaccurate to disguise a case of police brutality. Well. Is little point to this discussion. There will and rightly so be an investigation.


I haven't said what I think. It's your side of the argument doing that. I said we were unlikely to ever know if the police acted unlawfully as the only two witnesses apart from the police are now dead. It's not for me to assume they acted lawfully ffs.


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 10, 2014)

xenon said:


> Of course it applies. So does the right to self defence. They can't always both win.


How do you know that the cannibal wasn't acting in self defence btw?


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 10, 2014)

xenon said:


> Of course it applies. So does the right to self defence. They can't always both win.


on what are you basing your claim that this was an instance of self-defence?

sounds to me more like _pre-emptive _self-defence...


----------



## xenon (Nov 10, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> How do you know that the cannibal wasn't acting in self defence btw?


For the purposes of a reasonably sensible discussion. I'm taking some things as read. How do you know the lizards didn't do it.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 10, 2014)

xenon said:


> For the purposes of a reasonably sensible discussion. I'm taking some things as read. How do you know the lizards didn't do it.


because they left you alive


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 10, 2014)

xenon said:


> For the purposes of a reasonably sensible discussion. I'm taking some things as read. How do you know the lizards didn't do it.


Precisely my point. When do the facts get tested?


----------



## Spymaster (Nov 10, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> So the presumption of innocence, right to a fair trial and legal representation shouldn't necessarily apply in all cases?



You're getting this arse about face mate. 

The presumption of innocence is a legal construct that begins when an alleged criminal is apprehended and faces trial. There will always be occasions where the arrest of violent criminals (particularly those eating the face off his victim) result in his death.


----------



## xenon (Nov 10, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> on what are you basing your claim that this was an instance of self-defence?
> 
> sounds to me more like _pre-emptive _self-defence...


The officer was trying to stop him carrying on with his lunch. That seems to be a reasonable probability. Given what we have been told.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 10, 2014)

Spymaster said:


> You're getting this arse about face mate.
> 
> The presumption of innocence is a legal construct that begins when an alleged criminal is apprehended and faces trial. There will always be occasions where the arrest of violent criminals (particularly those eating the face off his victim) result in his death.


so he was eating the face of his victim and posing no immediate threat to the police constable who tasered him.


----------



## xenon (Nov 10, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> Precisely my point. When do the facts get tested?


In the enquiry.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 10, 2014)

xenon said:


> The officer was trying to stop him carrying on with his lunch. That seems to be a reasonable probability. Given what we have been told.


you do know what self-defence is, right?


----------



## Spymaster (Nov 10, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> on what are you basing your claim that this was an instance of self-defence?
> 
> sounds to me more like _pre-emptive _self-defence...



Legally, self-defence includes the defence of others. 

The reports I've seen so far suggest that Williams was attacking Cerys when the plod arrived.


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 10, 2014)

Spymaster said:


> You're getting this arse about face mate.
> 
> The presumption of innocence is a legal construct that begins when an alleged criminal is apprehended and faces trial. There will always be occasions where the arrest of violent criminals (particularly those eating the face off his victim) result in his death.


So perhaps we should just scrap the justice system, let the police deal with matters on the scene and we all accept their testimony delivered to us via the media then.


----------



## Spymaster (Nov 10, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> so he was eating the face of his victim and posing no immediate threat to the police constable who tasered him.



See #92.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 10, 2014)

Spymaster said:


> Legally, self-defence includes the defence of others.


source pls



> The reports I've seen so far suggest that Williams was attacking Cerys when the plod arrived.


i would have thought that the officer would use the necessity defence.


----------



## Spymaster (Nov 10, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> you do know what self-defence is, right?



He's right.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 10, 2014)

Spymaster said:


> See #92.


so you're not disputing that if the facts were as stated he posed no threat to the police officer involved.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 10, 2014)

Spymaster said:


> He's right.


answer the question in #95


----------



## xenon (Nov 10, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> you do know what self-defence is, right?


Yes. Did the officer know the Vic Tim was dead when she arrived?


----------



## Spymaster (Nov 10, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> source pls



Sure:



> *Self-Defence and the Prevention of Crime*
> *
> Reasonable Force*
> A person may use such force as is reasonable in the circumstances for the purposes of:
> ...



http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/s_to_u/self_defence/


----------



## Spymaster (Nov 10, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> answer the question in #95



See above.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 10, 2014)

xenon said:


> Yes. Did the officer know the Vic Tim was dead when she arrived?


you seem to be talking shit because when you look at what the cps have to say about self-defence http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/s_to_u/self_defence/#Principle it makes clear that self-defence and the prevention of crime are two separate defences.

next


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 10, 2014)

Spymaster said:


> Sure:
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/s_to_u/self_defence/


as your link suggests, self-defence is different from defence of another.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 10, 2014)

Spymaster said:


> See above.


see #102, #103


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 10, 2014)

it's all gone very quiet


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 10, 2014)

*taps watch*


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 10, 2014)

red leader calling Spymaster, come in Spymaster 
red leader calling xenon, come in xenon


----------



## Spymaster (Nov 10, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> as your link suggests, self-defence is different from defence of another.



As you like but it's clear that defence of another is a defence, as is preventing a crime, as is during a lawful arrest. Any of which could apply.

Not sure what your point is or that you have one.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 10, 2014)

Spymaster said:


> As you like but it's clear that defence of another is a defence, as is preventing a crime, as is during a lawful arrest. Any of which could apply.
> 
> Not sure what your point is or that you have one.


there's been a lot of wittering that self-defence includes defence of another. it doesn't. while defence of another is a defence it isn't the same as self-defence and someone who used the defence of self-defence in a case where they were under no immediate threat could easily find themselves convicted of murder.


----------



## Spymaster (Nov 10, 2014)

Actually, I'll take you on on this. I reckon you're wrong. Self defence includes the defence of others. Anyway it'll be more interesting than the rest of this thread.

Busy now, back later.


----------



## shygirl (Nov 10, 2014)

Have the police actually done anything wrong here?   Did they use higher voltage than usual?


----------



## Spymaster (Nov 10, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> there's been a lot of wittering that self-defence includes defence of another. it doesn't.



Yes it does. Quite clearly:



> At common law the defence of self-defence operates in three spheres. It allows a person to use reasonable force to:
> 
> (a) Defend himself from an attack.
> 
> ...






			
				Pickman's Model said:
			
		

> .... someone who used the defence of self-defence in a case where they were under no immediate threat could easily find themselves convicted of murder.



Not so in (b) above.



> *Burden of Proof*
> The burden of proof remains with the prosecution when the issue of self-defence is raised.
> 
> The prosecution must adduce sufficient evidence to satisfy a jury beyond reasonable doubt that the defendant was either:
> ...


http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/s_to_u/self_defence/
(my emphasis)

Self defence definitely includes the defence of others.


----------



## Spymaster (Nov 10, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> So perhaps we should just scrap the justice system, let the police deal with matters on the scene and we all accept their testimony delivered to us via the media then.



No. We should keep the justice system but not be too harsh on police officers who kill people who are engaged in the act of eating a woman's face off.


----------



## xenon (Nov 10, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> you seem to be talking shit because when you look at what the cps have to say about self-defence http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/s_to_u/self_defence/#Principle it makes clear that self-defence and the prevention of crime are two separate defences.
> 
> next




The officer, in line with what can constitute self defence, used force to stop him attacking the victim. 

e2a. Alright. "defence of another."


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 10, 2014)

Spymaster said:


> No. We should keep the justice system but not be too harsh on police officers who kill people who are engaged in the act of eating a woman's face off.



So it's specifically a woman having her face eaten where we don't question  extra judicial killing. Or could it apply to other contexts too?


----------



## Spymaster (Nov 10, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> So it's specifically a woman having her face eaten where we don't question accidental extra judicial killing. Or could it apply to other contexts too?



Plenty of others. 

How about any situation where the suspect is engaged in murderous activity?


----------



## Spymaster (Nov 10, 2014)

xenon said:


> The officer, in line with what can constitute self defence, used force to stop him attacking the victim.
> 
> e2a. Alright. "defence of another."



Your post was fine without the edit.


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 10, 2014)

Spymaster said:


> Plenty of others.
> 
> How about any situation where the suspect is engaged in murderous activity?



Sounds good. Someone has just attacked your Mrs, you're in the process of defending her and the police rock up full of adrenaline and conclude that you are engaged in murderous activity. Bang, you're dead.

No trial or further investigation required according to your position.


----------



## Spymaster (Nov 10, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> No trial or further investigation required according to your position.



Ah, ok, re-reading your post I see what you mean.

That is not my position.

Of course there should be an investigation. There should be (and is) an investigation whenever someone is killed by the police, but no trial unless some wrongdoing or incompetence is found.


----------



## Spymaster (Nov 10, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> Sounds good. Someone has just attacked your Mrs, you're in the process of defending her and the police rock up full of adrenaline and conclude that you are engaged in murderous activity. Bang, you're dead.
> 
> No trial or further investigation required according to your position.



Turn this around. 

Your Mrs is being brutally attacked and the police rock up and shoot her attacker dead. 

Would you want the shooter done for murder?


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Nov 10, 2014)

His mother was saying this morning that he was under treatment for his paranoid schizophrenia while he was in prison - which he has been for a lot of his adult life - but after he was discharged they didn't provide treatment/medication. http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-south-east-wales-29981512


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 10, 2014)

Spymaster said:


> Turn this around.
> 
> Your Mrs is being brutally attacked and the police rock up and shoot her attacker dead.
> 
> Would you want the shooter done for murder?


I thought we'd concluded that you were now dead?


----------



## xenon (Nov 10, 2014)

Spymaster said:


> Your post was fine without the edit.



Probably as well. I was going from memory re self defence anyway...


----------



## Spymaster (Nov 10, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> I thought we'd concluded that you were now dead?



Any such conclusion would be greatly exaggerated.


----------



## xenon (Nov 10, 2014)

FridgeMagnet said:


> His mother was saying this morning that he was under treatment for his paranoid schizophrenia while he was in prison - which he has been for a lot of his adult life - but after he was discharged they didn't provide treatment/medication. http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-south-east-wales-29981512



Well yeah, clearly something's gone wrong. Not that you can ever prevent all of these horrific instances but I hope the background is investigated too.

Will likely just be the same old lack of joined up services, cutbacks, slipped through net, catalogue of errors, ill and dangerous man left to it.


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 10, 2014)

Spymaster said:


> Any such conclusion would be greatly exaggerated.


I don't think my position would change on account of me knowing the victim. There's wider issues at stake.


----------



## Spymaster (Nov 10, 2014)

xenon said:


> Probably as well. I was going from memory re self defence anyway...



Aye. The main rub is that reasonable force can be used in the prevention of a crime or to make a lawful arrest. Tasering someone who is eating someone else is not unreasonable.


----------



## Spymaster (Nov 10, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> I don't think my position would change on account of me knowing the victim. There's wider issues at stake.



Ok. What are you trying to argue?

I'm not sure what we disagree on.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Nov 10, 2014)

xenon said:


> Well yeah, clearly something's gone wrong. Not that you can ever prevent all of these horrific instances but I hope the background is investigated too.
> 
> Will likely just be the same old lack of joined up services, cutbacks, slipped through net, catalogue of errors, ill and dangerous man left to it.


I think this is a much more important (and workable) thing to look at in this instance rather than the use of a taser. I'm not a fan of them but that's because of their abuse as torture/compliance tools - rampant in the US from all evidence - and that's kind of hard to argue in this situation unless there's something that's been kept really hidden here. Whereas the dreadful lack of importance given to MH issues in the system is an ongoing scandal that affects a huge number of people and ruins lives every day.


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 10, 2014)

Spymaster said:


> Ok. What are you trying to argue?
> 
> I'm not sure what we disagree on.



I'm arguing against the 'go softly on the police' approach. Because historically they've got it very wrong in terms of people dying in custody and killing people based solely on the suspicion of them being a threat.

You seem to be arguing that should be acceptable on account that they may get the odd wrong-un. I'm arguing that it leads to extra-judicial killing. It appears in this case that the death was accidental but then a) is the taser too dangerous to use as a way of incapacitating someone and b) were there no other options available? 
Arguing that you simply don't care and the police should be trusted to make snap judgments hands a lot of power to the state in terms of the power they have over the life and death of its subjects and the police's accountability regarding it.


----------



## Spymaster (Nov 10, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> I'm arguing against the 'go softly on the police' approach. Because historically they've got it very wrong in terms of people dying in custody and killing people based solely on the suspicion of them being a threat.



I'm not advocating a general 'go softly on the police' approach. There should be a thorough investigation and there will be. However, there will be cases where coppers are required to use extreme force, and on prima facie evidence this is one.



> You seem to be arguing that should be acceptable on account that they may get the odd wrong-un.



I'm not.



> I'm arguing that it leads to extra-judicial killing. It appears in this case that the death was accidental but then a) is the taser too dangerous to use as a way of incapacitating someone and b) were there no other options available? Arguing that you simply don't care and the police should be trusted to make snap judgments hands a lot of power to the state in terms of the power they have over the life and death of its subjects and the police's accountability regarding it.



Unfortunately the police are occasionally going to have to make those snap judgments for which they should be fully accountable, although I'm not sure that it requires too much thought to decide to shoot someone who's eating a woman's face off.


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 10, 2014)

I'm not sure what shooting him would have achieved. It's not going to give the woman her face back. As it happened a decision was made to incapacitate him using a taser. It killed him. So we either argue that in situations where violence is occurring that the police should have a shoot to kill policy with all that entails or argue whether the taser is suitable to just incapacitate people given there's a chance they become a fatality that way. Remember, taser is used in all manner of situations. Not just when people are being eaten.


----------



## Spymaster (Nov 10, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> I'm not sure what shooting him would have achieved. It's not going to give the woman her face back.



Presumably the copper was unaware whether she was dead or alive at that point so may well have been trying to save her life.



> As it happened a decision was made to incapacitate him using a taser. It killed him. So we either argue that in situations where violence is occurring that the police should have a shoot to kill policy with all that entails ....



Tasering someone who then dies is not evidence of a shoot to kill policy.



> ... or argue whether the taser is suitable to just incapacitate people given there's a chance they become a fatality that way. Remember, taser is used in all manner of situations. Not just when people are being eaten.



There are probably many situations where using a taser may be inappropriate and should result in charges being brought against the shooter. From what I've read and heard so far this is not one of them.


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 10, 2014)

Spymaster said:


> Presumably the copper was unaware whether she was dead or alive at that point so may well have been trying to save her life.



undoubtedly so. But given the decision was to incapacitate and not kill him it brings the use of taser for subduing people into question.



> Tasering someone is not evidence of a shoot to kill policy.



Sorry, that was in response to you saying "I'm not sure that it requires too much thought to decide to shoot someone who's eating a woman's face off."



> There are probably many situations where using a taser may be inappropriate and should result in charges being brought against the shooter. From what I've read and heard so far this is not one of them.



So the officer didn't intend for him to die or they did? If the former then it brings the use of tasers into question, if the latter then I'm not sure it had been sanctioned and is therefore extra judicial.


----------



## Spymaster (Nov 10, 2014)

Again, most people that are tasered don't die so I doubt that her intention was to kill him.

I suppose there's a debate to be had about whether their use is _ever_ justifiable but a case where the suspect murdered and cannibalised the victim probably isn't the best place to test it.


----------



## Spymaster (Nov 10, 2014)

Red leader calling Pickman's model , come in Pickman's model .


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 10, 2014)

*taps watch*


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 10, 2014)

Spymaster said:


> Red leader calling Pickman's model , come in Pickman's model .


you're blue leader


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 10, 2014)

On that basis you shouldn't have been red leader or even a leader at all.


----------



## 8ball (Nov 10, 2014)

Spymaster said:


> Again, most people that are tasered don't die so I doubt that her intention was to kill him.



Lots of people who get tasered while standing up go rigid, fall over and hit their head - that's a huge proportion of taser deaths.  I imagine in a case like this they'd really want to bring him in, but in the heat of the moment who knows what happened.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 10, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> On that basis you shouldn't have been red leader or even a leader at all.


you're a fine one to speak, pink leader


----------



## Spymaster (Nov 10, 2014)

8ball said:


> I imagine in a case like this they'd really want to bring him in, but in the heat of the moment who knows what happened.



Considering she responded alone fuck knows what went through her mind. Can you imagine being called out and finding a geezer eating someones face? 

Proper pants-shitting stuff.


----------



## 8ball (Nov 10, 2014)

Spymaster said:


> Considering she responded alone fuck knows what went through her mind. Can you imagine being called out and finding a geezer eating someones face?
> 
> Proper pants-shitting stuff.





I didn't know anything about the details of the case (aside from references to cannibalism) until reading this thread, but that's proper horror movie stuff.  I might well have run the whole battery down before stoving his head in with a heavy object if it was me - never let them get up again when the camera pans away. 

Obviously I'm not in the police and this is probably a very good thing.


----------



## Spymaster (Nov 10, 2014)

8ball said:


> Obviously I'm not in the police and this is probably a very good thing.



Same here but because my immediate reaction when confronted alone with extreme violence would probably be to run like fuck in the opposite direction. 

Are coppers allowed to leg it?


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 10, 2014)

Spymaster said:


> Considering she responded alone fuck knows what went through her mind. Can you imagine being called out and finding a geezer eating someones face?
> 
> Proper pants-shitting stuff.



Out of curiosity, can you provide a source for this alleged female officer attending the crime scene alone and firing the taser?


----------



## 8ball (Nov 10, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> Out of curiosity, can you provide a source for this alleged female officer attending the crime scene alone and firing the taser?



Fair point, I'm only going on what I've read on the last page of this thread.  Also, from the one report I can see it seems he was arrested at the scene and died later in custody, so nothing like the scenario in my head.


----------



## Spymaster (Nov 10, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> Out of curiosity, can you provide a source for this alleged female officer attending the crime scene alone and firing the taser?



Fridgemagnet's link above:


> A lone female officer was sent to the scene where she found Williams attacking Ms Yemm, from Blackwood.



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-south-east-wales-29981512


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 10, 2014)

8ball said:


> Fair point, I'm only going on what I've read on the last page of this thread.  Also, from the one report I can see it seems he was arrested at the scene and died later in custody, so nothing like the scenario in my head.



That question was at spymaster, not you.


----------



## 8ball (Nov 10, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> That question was at spymaster, not you.



I know, I was being accidentally confusing.


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 10, 2014)

Spymaster said:


> Fridgemagnet's link above:
> 
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-south-east-wales-29981512



It says a lone female officer was sent to the scene but not that she had discharged the taser.


----------



## Spymaster (Nov 10, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> It says a lone female officer was sent to the scene but not that she had discharged the taser.





> UPDATE: 5.17pm
> Police confirmed that the officer who first came to the scene and tasered Matthew Williams was a woman officer.



http://www.southwalesargus.co.uk/ne...d_murder_probe_continues_as_two_die_in_hotel/


----------



## 8ball (Nov 10, 2014)

Very sad if it's true that they let him out without his meds.


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 10, 2014)

Ah, the old "police confirmed" chestnut.

It doesn't mention whether she was alone or not when the taser was discharged like your earlier posts suggest.

I can find many reports stating "officers attended the scene", for example.


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 10, 2014)

> When police reached the Sirhowy Arms Hotel in the village of Argoed they fired a Taser to subdue the suspect. He became unresponsive and, despite efforts by police officers and paramedics to revive him, died. Police have not named the man but he has been identified locally as Matthew Williams.
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/nov/06/woman-murdered-taser-welsh-valleys-argoed-village



So for some reason the narrative has changed.


----------



## Spymaster (Nov 10, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> So for some reason the narrative has changed.



It hasn't changed much, tbf, and the reports are likely to become more accurate as the information rolls out. They've repeated the lone female officer thing since.



> Gwent Police said a lone female officer initially responded to the attack.
> 
> Ch Insp Paul Staniforth told reporters on Friday Ms Yemm's family is being supported by officers.
> 
> He also said the female officer and others who later attended were being supported by the force's occupational health department.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-south-east-wales-29957977

I suppose it's possible that the first officer on the scene didn't fire the taser but in other reports they seem to say she did. Seems like a pointless thing to lie about.


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 10, 2014)

It's possible that the first officer on the scene was alone and female and awaited back-up to arrive (unless she either carries a taser to a routine call out or it wasn't a routine call out and they just sent her alone anyway) before being handed the taser and firing it.

Which rather smacks in the face of her being 'traumatised' by the scene that greeted her.


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 10, 2014)

And what's the officer's gender got to do with it anyway?


----------



## Spymaster (Nov 10, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> It's possible that the first officer on the scene was alone and female and awaited back-up to arrive (unless she either carries a taser to a routine call out or it wasn't a routine call out and they just sent her alone anyway) before being handed the taser and firing it.



It's possible that she tasered him whilst singing _Danny Boy_ with her thumb up her arse.

But that's not what's being reported.

There's nothing unusual about coppers carrying tasers. I saw one last week buying his lunch in Tesco.


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 10, 2014)

Spymaster said:


> It's possible that she tasered him whilst singing _Danny Boy_ with her thumb up her arse.
> 
> But that's not what's being reported.



That might as well be what's being reported. You'd readily buy it for starters.


----------



## Spymaster (Nov 10, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> That might as well be what's being reported. You'd readily buy it for starters.



Yep. I keep forgetting; any reporting that does not immediately and automatically assume evil intention on the part of plod must be considered lies and misinformation.

Must. Try. To. Remember.


----------



## 8ball (Nov 10, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> That might as well be what's being reported. You'd readily buy it for starters.



Ok, so what can we infer from what_ isn't_ being reported?


----------



## Spymaster (Nov 10, 2014)

8ball said:


> Ok, so what can we infer from what_ isn't_ being reported?



I reckon the only account that C66 would accept is the one he'd write himself, with multiple coppers overpowering the poor cannibal before tying him up and killing him with massive taser badness for a laugh, then swearing a blood oath never to tell.


----------



## 8ball (Nov 10, 2014)

Spymaster said:


> I reckon the only account that C66 would accept is the one he'd write himself, with multiple coppers overpowering the poor cannibal before tying him up and killing him with massive taser badness for a laugh, then swearing a blood oath never to tell.



Only he's not a cannibal, he's trying to save a burning orphanage.


----------



## Spymaster (Nov 10, 2014)

8ball said:


> Only he's not a cannibal, he's trying to save a burning orphanage.



From which the police use the kids as a food source.


----------



## Ax^ (Nov 11, 2014)

Spymaster said:


> Ah, ok, re-reading your post I see what you mean.
> 
> That is not my position.
> 
> Of course there should be an investigation. There should be (and is) an investigation whenever someone is killed by the police, but no trial unless some wrongdoing or incompetence is found.




Aye he was eating an eyeball not getting shot twice and throwing the gun 40 foot away


----------



## xenon (Nov 11, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> That might as well be what's being reported. You'd readily buy it for starters.


It's okay, you can write your own version if you like. That's the beauty of debating without the full facts.


----------



## xenon (Nov 11, 2014)

Spymaster said:


> I reckon the only account that C66 would accept is the one he'd write himself, with multiple coppers overpowering the poor cannibal before tying him up and killing him with massive taser badness for a laugh, then swearing a blood oath never to tell.


Shit I'm agreeing with you again. Somebody tazr me


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 11, 2014)

So some reports state multiple officers arriving at the scene and others state a lone female officer arriving at the scene. Which is it?

Do you concede that one report must be lying whilst the other is telling the truth or can it all be considered facts? Because the central plank to your argument has been to trust the word of the police via media reports which so far seems as clear as mud.


----------



## Spymaster (Nov 11, 2014)

One's certainly incorrect but I don't think they're necessarily lying. The reports that mention "officers" seem to be the earliest ones, so more likely is that the journalists have made the understandable assumption that two or more coppers pitched up initially and have gone with "officers" rather than "lone police woman" which would have required specific information which they didn't have at the time.

I don't know why you're clinging to this though. Even if you were right it wouldn't bolster your position.


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 11, 2014)

It relates back to the earlier discussion of the police having these powers and also lying when it comes to fatalities at their hands. You appear to accept the media reports wholesale but from where I'm sitting there's conflicting accounts of what happened, the propensity of the media to put their own spin on things and then your _ theory _ that it's all some genuine mistake despite Hillsborough and Tomlinson proving the police lie through their teeth and the elements within the media collaborate with them. I'm sure you were quick to theorise on those occasions too.


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 11, 2014)

If the media can't even get the facts straight its untenable to construct your position on what's being reported.


----------



## Spymaster (Nov 11, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> If the media can't even get the facts straight its untenable to construct your position on what's being reported.



Well the sensible way to look at it would be to examine what's presented, by whom, how, and when. So far it seems eminently plausible that the policewoman turned up alone, found Williams eating Cerys, tasered him, and he died soon after, possibly because of years of drug abuse. Despite being asked several times you haven't even suggested a possible ACAB alternative.

I'll help you out: It's possible that several police arrived at the scene and nicked Williams. He's taken into custody alive and well. He is then mistreated in the nick by taser torture which causes his death. The police then get together and fabricate the "lone woman" story, despite it being dangerously refutable by possible eye witnesses, presumably because as a lone female officer she could reasonably use more lethal force than a gang of hairy-arsed, 6ft coppers. They then sprinkle the crime scene with taser tags and say he was tasered there rather than the nick.

How's that, like it better?


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 11, 2014)

So your argument against me suggesting the facts aren't clear is that I should make some facts up myself (with your help if need be)?

Brilliant.


----------



## Spymaster (Nov 11, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> So your argument against me suggesting the facts aren't clear is that I should make some facts up myself (with your help if need be)?
> 
> Brilliant.



Well it's what you did last night at post #156!

I thought my effort was pretty good.


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 11, 2014)

Well it further illustrates that we need more facts. Sending a lone officer to a routine call out armed with a taser seems bizarre to me but maybe that's standard police practice.


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 11, 2014)

This report states that it was security who were first on the scene who then alerted the police. No mention of a lone female officer making the discovery:



> Security staff at the hotel burst into the room when Williams refused to let them in and they found him "eating her to death".
> 
> Horrified staff called police who hit Williams with the high voltage taser knocking him to the floor.
> 
> ...


----------



## Spymaster (Nov 11, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> This report states that it was security who were first on the scene who then alerted the police. No mention of a lone female officer making the discovery:



Well of course she didn't "make the discovery". Someone would have had to call the old bill unless they had an officer on patrol in Williams' bedroom.



> Mandy Miles said Matthew Williams, who killed 22-year-old Cerys Yemm, was covered in blood and had “black eyes” while his victim had terrible facial injuries. She said: “I can still see the amount of blood and the stillness of her, there were no signs of life at that point. I said to Matthew: “Do you know what you’re doing to that girl?”. He said: ‘That’s no girl.’”
> 
> Miles claimed Williams did not recognise her – or what he was doing.
> 
> ...


http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...rder-wales-hostel-matthew-williams-cerys-yemm

Unless there's _far_ more to this than we're being told that last sentence should probably read "Williams died after being shot at with a taser". Good old Guardian.


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 11, 2014)

So when the female officer arrived on the scene she probably knew what to expect. And knowing what to expect I seriously doubt she was sent there alone.


----------



## Spymaster (Nov 11, 2014)

Ok, whatever. Chances are she didn't know _exactly_ what to expect and was told to "investigate a disturbance" or "a man attacking a woman", or several coppers were alerted but she arrived first.  

There are now multiple reports saying that she arrived first and alone.


----------



## 8ball (Nov 11, 2014)

Spymaster said:


> There are now multiple reports saying that she arrived first and alone.



Yeah, seems there are a few of those.  That doesn't mean she was _sent_ alone, just that she arrived first.  Maybe she was on doughnut duty and hence closer to the scene.


----------



## scifisam (Nov 11, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> Executing him without trial 'accidentally' we probably won't agree on.
> 
> Firstly we have the presumption of innocence and right to a fair trial. Secondly we don't have the death penalty. The police circumvented all of that on this occasion.



We do have the presumption of innocence, and that applies to the police too. It's not like "I tasered a man who was still eating another woman, and then he died," is an outlandishly unikely version of events given that there are witnesses to the man eating the woman and seeing the police arrive.

I do actually have a little sympathy for the killer (as well as obvious sympathy for his victim). He should have been cared for better so that he never got this far.


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 11, 2014)

Spymaster said:


> Ok, whatever. Chances are she didn't know _exactly_ what to expect and was told to "investigate a disturbance" or "a man attacking a woman", or several coppers were alerted but she arrived first.
> 
> There are now multiple reports saying that she arrived first and alone.





8ball said:


> Yeah, seems there are a few of those.  That doesn't mean she was _sent_ alone, just that she arrived first.  Maybe she was on doughnut duty and hence closer to the scene.



So the Hotel security discovered him eating a woman's face off as per report referenced above and either they forgot to mention that small fact when contacting the police or the police were informed of the fact and decided to send scared female officer to the scene alone to deal with it. Or, more likely, a mob of old bill turned up who could have subdued him by other means.



Spymaster said:


> Considering she responded alone fuck knows what went through her mind. Can you imagine being called out and finding a geezer eating someones face?
> 
> Proper pants-shitting stuff.


----------



## xenon (Nov 11, 2014)

Pfft. Maybe she was the closest officer.


----------



## Spymaster (Nov 11, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> Or, more likely, a mob of old bill turned up who could have subdued him by other means.



Given the current reports this is probably not what happened. You've made it up based on nothing but prejudice.

But what you're not getting is that even if you're right it doesn't matter.

If half the fucking Gwent police force turned up supported by a platoon of Royal Marines and found the geezer agitated, covered in blood and eating the woman, tasering him would *still* not have been unreasonable.


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 12, 2014)

We're going round in circles. He didn't need to die and neither did his victim. Someone somewhere has failed in their duty of care. If it wasn't the police's intention to kill him then it calls the use of tasers to subdue people into question.


----------



## Spymaster (Nov 12, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> Someone somewhere has failed in their duty of care.



Yes. That's the real issue but you've spent the last few days pissing about with this acab nonsense. 

Those responsible for letting Williams out of prison unsupported failed in their duty of care.

There's also a discussion to be had about the treatment of violent mentally ill offenders. Is it right to release a known violent criminal back into society who's perfectly fine when he takes his medication/receives support, but may well seriously harm or kill someone if he doesn't? I don't know.



> If it wasn't the police's intention to kill him then it calls the use of tasers to subdue people into question.



The use of Taser has long been in question. Probably a different debate though since few reasonable folk would question its use in this case.


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 12, 2014)

It reminds me a bit of the Bill Hicks' "pick up the gun" sketch. Bang - he had a gun. 

Admittedly not done deliberately but with the same outcome.


----------



## Mr Moose (Nov 12, 2014)

Spymaster said:


> It's possible that she tasered him whilst singing _Danny Boy_ with her thumb up her arse.
> 
> But that's not what's being reported.
> 
> There's nothing unusual about coppers carrying tasers. I saw one last week buying his lunch in Tesco.



Taser can be useful for heating said lunch up.


----------



## Utopia (Nov 12, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> He didn't need to die and neither did his victim.


 
The innoncent victim certainly didn't need to die but the fella(even if mental or drug addicted) that chose to kill her then after doing that decided to eat her face may have been better off removing from society swiftly.

Instant Karma got him.


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 12, 2014)

Utopia said:


> The innoncent victim certainly didn't need to die but the fella(even if mental or drug addicted) that chose to kill her then after doing that decided to eat her face may have been better off removing from society swiftly.
> 
> Instant Karma got him.


Rather than getting care in hospital? 

I'm always surprised when people express their own blood lust from the moral high ground.


----------



## Spymaster (Nov 12, 2014)

Mr Moose said:


> Taser can be useful for heating said lunch up.



Wouldn't the current be too low?


----------



## PursuedByBears (Nov 12, 2014)

Utopia said:


> The innoncent victim certainly didn't need to die but the fella(even if mental or drug addicted) that chose to kill her then after doing that decided to eat her face may have been better off removing from society swiftly.
> 
> Instant Karma got him.


Not sure that he killed her THEN ate her face or if the eating was what killed her?


----------



## Mr Moose (Nov 12, 2014)

Spymaster said:


> Wouldn't the current be too low?



Grrr. Just more proof that our Police are woefully ill-equipped.


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 12, 2014)

Spymaster said:


> Wouldn't the current be too low?


I think he was joshing. But yeah, tasers are high voltage but low current to prevent people dying. On some occasions.


----------



## Spymaster (Nov 12, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> I think he was joshing.



I know, but it raises an important question. 

Does the discharge from a taser contain sufficient current to heat a Ginsters pastie?


----------



## Mr Moose (Nov 12, 2014)

Utopia said:


> The innoncent victim certainly didn't need to die but the fella(even if mental or drug addicted) that chose to kill her then after doing that decided to eat her face may have been better off removing from society swiftly.
> 
> Instant Karma got him.



I suppose it comes down to the definition of 'choice' in this respect. Is someone who is critically delusional making a 'choice' in the way in which we usually understand the notion of free-will?

I think we need a lot more to come out at the inquest to know whether his behaviour was as a result of a lack of medication and supervision, or if these were available and rejected and if so whether that meant he could have/should have been further detained. We also really don't know the circumstances of how the use of a taser lead to his death. Whether it was used lightly and that was enough in the heightened state he was in, or if he kept on getting up to attack the Police, or if they just let him have it.


----------



## Mr Moose (Nov 12, 2014)

Spymaster said:


> I know, but it raises an important question.
> 
> Does the discharge from a taser contain sufficient current to heat a Ginsters pastie?



The one and only choice of the (flatulent) travelling Police Officer.


----------



## scifisam (Nov 12, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> So the Hotel security discovered him eating a woman's face off as per report referenced above and either they forgot to mention that small fact when contacting the police or the police were informed of the fact and decided to send scared female officer to the scene alone to deal with it. Or, more likely, a mob of old bill turned up who could have subdued him by other means.


Why are you making things up? A mob of police turned up, despite all the reports to the contrary? 

What's happened to that presumption of innocence thing?


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 12, 2014)

scifisam said:


> Why are you making things up? A mob of police turned up, despite all the reports to the contrary?
> 
> What's happened to that presumption of innocence thing?


What have I made up? I was saying I found it hard to believe that they sent a lone officer to an incident of someone getting their face eaten as reported to them by the hotel security. And there's conflicting newspaper reports regarding it.


----------



## Spymaster (Nov 12, 2014)

scifisam said:


> What's happened to that presumption of innocence thing?



It doesn't apply to coppers.


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 12, 2014)

Spymaster said:


> It doesn't apply to coppers.


Or on internet forums.


----------



## Spymaster (Nov 12, 2014)

Mr Moose said:


> Whether it was used lightly and that was enough in the heightened state he was in, or if he kept on getting up to attack the Police, or if they just let him have it.



Also the seriousness of the situation at hand comes into play.

Most of us would probably agree that tasering a shoplifter who wasn't presenting a threat to anyone would be a cunts trick. But faced with a suspect covered in blood standing over a woman with massive injuries and possibly bleeding to death, being reasonably certain he did it (or catching him at it), the idea must be to subdue him asap and get immediate help to the victim. If you're carrying a taser now is probably the time to use it rather than fucking about negotiating or cogitating on what would constitute reasonable force, regardless of whether you're alone or in a gang.


----------



## Dr_Herbz (Nov 12, 2014)

Spymaster said:


> Also the seriousness of the situation at hand comes into play.
> 
> Most of us would probably agree that tasering a shoplifter who wasn't presenting a threat to anyone would be a cunts trick. But faced with a suspect covered in blood standing over a woman with massive injuries possibly bleeding to death, and being reasonably certain he did it (or catching him at it), the idea must be to subdue him asap and get immediate help to the victim. If you're carrying a taser now is probably the time to use it rather than fucking about negotiating or cogitating on what would constitute reasonable force.


How many people wouldn't keep the trigger pulled if it was a loved one getting eaten?


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 12, 2014)

Ok you can climb out of his bum now.


----------



## Dr_Herbz (Nov 12, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> Ok you can climb out of his bum now.


Fuck off you dickhead... You're trying to argue that the tazer shouldn't have been used. It'd be different if it was one of your family members getting eaten.


----------



## Utopia (Nov 12, 2014)

Spymaster said:


> Also the seriousness of the situation at hand comes into play.
> 
> Most of us would probably agree that tasering a shoplifter who wasn't presenting a threat to anyone would be a cunts trick. But faced with a suspect covered in blood standing over a woman with massive injuries and possibly bleeding to death, being reasonably certain he did it (or catching him at it), the idea must be to subdue him asap and get immediate help to the victim. If you're carrying a taser now is probably the time to use it rather than fucking about negotiating or cogitating on what would constitute reasonable force, regardless of whether you're alone or in a gang.


 
Utterly agree, he lost his rights for negotiations when he killed/started to eat that poor girl, the fact he probably had a weak heart, possibly due to substance abuse and couldnt handle a 'tasering' is just karma at its finest.


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 12, 2014)

Dr_Herbz said:


> Fuck off you dickhead... You're trying to argue that the tazer shouldn't have been used. It'd be different if it was one of your family members getting eaten.


What if it was one of my family members who died following being tasered. What would I be arguing then?


----------



## Dr_Herbz (Nov 12, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> What if it was one of my family members who died following being tasered. What would I be arguing then?


If you had an ounce of sense, you wouldn't be arguing anything. You'd be saying... "Well, he was eating someone's face!"


----------



## Dr_Herbz (Nov 12, 2014)

What do you think police should be issued with instead of a tazer? A book of "strong words to use in violent situations"? Maybe Roger's Profanisaurus?


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 12, 2014)

Dr_Herbz said:


> If you had an ounce of sense, you wouldn't be arguing anything. You'd be saying... "Well, he was eating someone's face!"


Not everyone who gets tasered have been eating someone's face.


----------



## Dr_Herbz (Nov 12, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> Not everyone who gets tasered have been eating someone's face.


We're talking about this case, where he was eating someone's face. What should the cop have done?

Also... 



Dr_Herbz said:


> What do you think police should be issued with instead of a tazer? A book of "strong words to use in violent situations"? Maybe Roger's Profanisaurus?



?


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 12, 2014)

Dr_Herbz said:


> We're talking about this case, where he was eating someone's face. What should the cop have done?
> 
> Also...
> 
> ...



They already have batons and strength in numbers on their side.


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 12, 2014)

God only knows how they coped prior to having tasers.


----------



## Dr_Herbz (Nov 12, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> They already have batons and strength in numbers on their side.


What about a single female cop Vs a deranged, face-eating lunatic. Would you suggest she wade in with her baton and subdue the attacker? Or just let him finish his meal?


----------



## Dr_Herbz (Nov 12, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> God only knows how they coped prior to having tasers.


God only knows how they coped prior to having cars and radios... Ban cars and radios!


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 12, 2014)

Dr_Herbz said:


> What about a single female cop Vs a deranged, face-eating lunatic. Would you suggest she wade in with her baton and subdue the attacker? Or just let him finish his meal?


Arm them with light sabres?


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 12, 2014)

I see we're back to the lone female officer bollocks again.


----------



## Dr_Herbz (Nov 12, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> I see we're back to the lone female officer bollocks again.


Was she Siamese twins?


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 12, 2014)

Dr_Herbz said:


> Was she Siamese twins?


I've seen three vans loaded with officers race up to sort out a group of pissed kids. If you think a lone officer was sent to deal with serious violent assault you're more deluded than I thought. Further, I'm yet to see a report that actually states that's what happened: more it's what some posters have extrapolated from incomplete information.


----------



## Spymaster (Nov 12, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> If you think a lone officer was sent to deal with serious violent assault you're more deluded than I thought.



Shut up you tart! This was adequately dealt with last night.



> Further, I'm yet to see a report that actually states that's what happened ...



Except for the (at least) 3 that have been posted on this thread saying a lone wpc was first on the scene you mean?


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 12, 2014)

And what about all the reports stating OFFICERS turned up and then a taser was deployed? I suppose those reports are wrong? 
In the reports you linked to there's mention of a female officer being first on the scene and that she fired the taser. Nowhere have I seen it stated that she was alone when all that happened.


----------



## Dr_Herbz (Nov 12, 2014)

I'm 100% sure that cops have used tazers in situations where they shouldn't have used them. This wasn't one of those situations, regardless of how many cops were there.
If I was a cop and came across someone yummying down on someone's face, I wouldn't go near them. They'd be break dancing to a 50,000 volt beat.


----------



## Spymaster (Nov 12, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> And what about all the reports stating OFFICERS turned up and then a taser was deployed? I suppose those reports are wrong?
> In the reports you linked to there's mention of a female officer being first on the scene and that she fired the taser. Nowhere have I seen it stated that she was alone when all that happened.



Tell you what, how about we just copy and paste all the posts from the last 4 pages again?


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 12, 2014)

Spymaster said:


> Tell you what, how about we just copy and paste all the posts from the last 4 pages again?


You mean the ones that contain zero proof that she was on her own? Yeah, if you want.


----------



## Dr_Herbz (Nov 12, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> You mean the ones that contain zero proof that she was on her own? Yeah, if you want.


Why does it matter whether she was on her own or not? If you were a cop, and came across this guy eating someone's face, would you choose close combat or the option that would prevent you becoming dessert?


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 12, 2014)

Dr_Herbz said:


> Why does it matter whether she was on her own or not? If you were a cop, and came across this guy eating someone's face, would you choose close combat or the option that would prevent you becoming dessert?


If it doesn't matter then why do people keep going on about it?


----------



## 8ball (Nov 12, 2014)

Dr_Herbz said:


> Why does it matter whether she was on her own or not? If you were a cop, and came across this guy eating someone's face, would you choose close combat or the option that would prevent you becoming dessert?



Perhaps she could have handed him a strongly worded anti-cannibalism leaflet.


----------



## Spymaster (Nov 12, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> You mean the ones that contain zero proof that she was on her own?



It. Doesn't. Matter.

You're fixating on this because you've got nothing else to batter plod with.


----------



## scifisam (Nov 12, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> Not everyone who gets tasered have been eating someone's face.


But this one was! 

You posted earlier about a presumption of innocence for the cannibal, so that time you apparently did think it applied even on Internet forums. Except for cops.


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 12, 2014)

scifisam said:


> But this one was!
> 
> You posted earlier about a presumption of innocence for the cannibal, so that time you apparently did think it applied even on Internet forums. Except for cops.


Eh? I gave an opinion of what I thought was more likely  (in that post you quoted).


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 12, 2014)

Spymaster said:


> It. Doesn't. Matter.
> 
> You're fixating on this because you've got nothing else to batter plod with.


I'm fixating on it because people keep bringing it up. It's you and your sidekick that think it matters. I'm just asking for proof that it's accurate.


----------



## Spymaster (Nov 12, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> It's you and your sidekick that think it matters.



I can't speak for my sidekick but I've been very clear that I think it's neither here nor there in terms of what happened to Williams, and explained why.

Given that this is possibly one of the most anti-police websites on the net, have you thought about why you seem to be a lone voice on this?


----------



## Dr_Herbz (Nov 12, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> I'm fixating on it because people keep bringing it up. It's you and your sidekick that think it matters. I'm just asking for proof that it's accurate.


I brought it up because that was what was reported in the news, and if it was the case that a single cop was first on scene, there was no need to argue the case further... But, let's assume she was there with the charge of the light brigade. I still wouldn't say she used excessive force, considering the circumstances.


----------



## Spymaster (Nov 12, 2014)

.


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 12, 2014)

This thread needs a fuckin good taserin


----------



## 8ball (Nov 12, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> This thread needs a fuckin good taserin



You could always start up your own thread about the real issues - you could call it "ACAB - Pig scum torture and kill vulnerable man over niche dietary preference!".


----------



## scifisam (Nov 12, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> Eh? I gave an opinion of what I thought was more likely  (in that post you quoted).


And in the other post I quoted you said we have a presumption of innocence for the cannibal.


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 12, 2014)

scifisam said:


> And in the other post I quoted you said we have a presumption of innocence for the cannibal.


ri-ight and where are the police not getting the presumption of innocence? I'm yet to see any cop go down for any death so they get more than a presumption.


----------



## scifisam (Nov 12, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> ri-ight and where are the police not getting the presumption of innocence? I'm yet to see any cop go down for any death so they get more than a presumption.


Er, they're not getting it in your posts.


----------



## Spymaster (Nov 12, 2014)

8ball said:


> "ACAB - Pig scum torture and kill vulnerable man over niche dietary preference!".


----------



## xenon (Nov 12, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> And what about all the reports stating OFFICERS turned up and then a taser was deployed? I suppose those reports are wrong?
> In the reports you linked to there's mention of a female officer being first on the scene and that she fired the taser. Nowhere have I seen it stated that she was alone when all that happened.


And? She should have waited til the rest were ready, in position and all rush the purp?


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 12, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> God only knows how they coped prior to having tasers.


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 12, 2014)

scifisam said:


> Er, they're not getting it in your posts.


How terrible. I'm sure they need protection from my posts on here.


----------



## scifisam (Nov 12, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> How terrible. I'm sure they need protection from my posts on here.



Of course not. I was just wondering why you are so eager to find ways for this cop to be guilty even when you're willing to presume innocence for the cannibal.


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 12, 2014)

scifisam said:


> Of course not. I was just wondering why you are so eager to find ways for this cop to be guilty even when you're willing to presume innocence for the cannibal.


I don't presume innocence of the cannibal and it's irrelevant whether I do or not.

I was making the wider point of miscarriages of justices occuring by accidental death caused by taser which then deprives the deceased of their chance to prove their innocence. People keep pushing it back to the cannibal but it's part of a wider debate surrounding using tasers if they have a chance of fatality. The vast majority of people tasered aren't cannibals: that is an extreme example.


----------



## Dr_Herbz (Nov 12, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> I don't presume innocence of the cannibal and it's irrelevant whether I do or not.
> 
> I was making the wider point of miscarriages of justices occuring by accidental death caused by taser which then deprives the deceased of their chance to prove their innocence. People keep pushing it back to the cannibal but it's part of a wider debate surrounding using tasers if they have a chance of fatality. The vast majority of people tasered aren't cannibals: that is an extreme example.


The vast majority of tasered people don't die, either.
How many people die per year in the UK from tasers? Is it more than or less than people who die from other forms of incapacitation?


----------



## scifisam (Nov 12, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> I don't presume innocence of the cannibal and it's irrelevant whether I do or not.
> 
> I was making the wider point of miscarriages of justices occuring by accidental death caused by taser which then deprives the deceased of their chance to prove their innocence. People keep pushing it back to the cannibal but it's part of a wider debate surrounding using tasers if they have a chance of fatality. The vast majority of people tasered aren't cannibals: that is an extreme example.



I'm not sure why you're making that argument in this thread. Cops do need some way to subdue violent people who are in the middle of attacking someone, and any method of doing that is going to have its risks, so should only be used when it really has to be; numerous times the police have been much too quick to use their tasers, but this isn't one of them.


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 12, 2014)

If you agree with the death penalty and being convicted without trial then you have a point. I don't agree with either so taser use is of concern to me.


----------



## Spymaster (Nov 12, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> If you agree with the death penalty and being convicted without trial then you have a point.



WTF????


----------



## Spymaster (Nov 12, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> I don't agree with either so taser use is of concern to me.



Another thread: "Should The Murdering Filth Bastards Have Tasers?"


----------



## Dr_Herbz (Nov 12, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> If you agree with the death penalty and being convicted without trial then you have a point. I don't agree with either so taser use is of concern to me.


And you believe all women should be murdered and eaten..?


----------



## scifisam (Nov 12, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> If you agree with the death penalty and being convicted without trial then you have a point. I don't agree with either so taser use is of concern to me.



Do you think tasers are unique in causing harm then? Any method of subduing someone has risks. It's impossible to have a perfect method which is temporarily physically disabling and never anything else.

The police often subdue people who aren't violent or a risk to anybody, but this time? He was _eating someone_. I mean, do you really think the cop should have just let him carry on? Or try to reason with someone who is eating a person?


----------



## 8ball (Nov 12, 2014)

Spymaster said:


> WTF????



C66 is in his own special world now - there'll be no reaching him.

Whether the taser use was justified in this case will hopefully be resolved in the inquiry, but the real inexcusable failing was in letting this man out without either meds or support, leading to two deaths..


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 12, 2014)

Spymaster said:


> WTF????


Not sure how I can explain it other than I did to make it make more sense.


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 12, 2014)

scifisam said:


> Do you think tasers are unique in causing harm then? Any method of subduing someone has risks. It's impossible to have a perfect method which is temporarily physically disabling and never anything else.
> 
> The police often subdue people who aren't violent or a risk to anybody, but this time? He was _eating someone_. I mean, do you really think the cop should have just let him carry on? Or try to reason with someone who is eating a person?


I think that even someone who is eating someone should go through the judicial process yes. Why not? 

He won't be though, will he?


----------



## bubblesmcgrath (Nov 12, 2014)

"Security staff at the hotel burst into the room when Williams refused to let them in and they found him "eating her to death.
"Gwent Police spokeswoman said yesterday: "We were called at 1.23am after a report that a man was attacking a woman in the Sirhowy Arms Hotel.
Gwent police spokesperson continues. .

"On arrival both the male and female were still at the location.
"A taser was discharged and a man was arrested.
"The woman was located with injuries and has since been pronounced deceased.
"While under arrest, the man became unresponsive. Officers and paramedics administered first aid but he has since been pronounced dead.
"He was staying at the hotel which operated as a bail hotel and had taken his victim back there for a drink.

"Williams had just served half a five-year prison sentence for a violent attack on his partner who lives nearby..

http://www.southwales-eveningpost.c...-face-Argoed/story-24329901-detail/story.html
................................................................


Clearly the policewoman knew she was entering a violent crime scene because she was called to the situation by security at the hotel who knew an assault was taking place on this poor woman.....it also appears that these security personel witnessed the man eating the woman's face and eyeball after they broke the door down and entered the room.

The policewoman arrives as the brutal assault is still taking place and she uses a tazer as a means to stun this man in order to prevent this horrific crime continuing...and to apprehend the man using what she feels is reasonable force.


----------



## Spymaster (Nov 12, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> Not sure how I can explain it other than I did to make it make more sense.



I'm not sure it's possible for you to do so, geezer. Probably best to just pretend it never happened!


----------



## 8ball (Nov 12, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> Not sure how I can explain it other than I did to make it make more sense.



No, I think you've reached your capacity as far as making sense goes.

Tasers are frankly terrible, and open to abuse, but every known way of stopping a determined attacker is really dangerous.  You've mystified me as to what hypothetical conditions you'd consider force to be justified under.


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 12, 2014)

8ball said:


> No, I think you've reached your capacity as far as making sense goes.
> 
> Tasers are frankly terrible, and open to abuse, but every known way of stopping a determined attacker is really dangerous.  You've mystified me as to what hypothetical conditions you'd consider force to be justified under.


You can be as dismissive as you like but here's an intetesting thought regarding taser use. What if the woman he was attacking was still alive when he got tasered and he was in bodily contact with her. It's perfectly plausible that the jolt could kill her.


----------



## bubblesmcgrath (Nov 12, 2014)

The fact he died is not proof that the taser killed him.
An autopsy and inquest will ascertain and divulge events on that day and how he died. 



It's pretty shit that the death of an innocent female victim is once again left on the margins. 
What an horrific death


----------



## Dr_Herbz (Nov 12, 2014)

8ball said:


> Whether the taser use was justified in this case will hopefully be resolved in the inquiry...



There's a chance Williams could have been an innocent bystander, and was using his saliva to glue her face back together.


----------



## 8ball (Nov 12, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> You can be as dismissive as you like but here's an intetesting thought regarding taser use. What if the woman he was attacking was still alive when he got tasered and he was in bodily contact with her. It's perfectly plausible that the jolt could kill her.


----------



## xenon (Nov 12, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> If you agree with the death penalty and being convicted without trial then you have a point. I don't agree with either so taser use is of concern to me.


How does a police officer stop a violenoffence in progress? Hit the offender with sticks? They could still die you know.


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 12, 2014)

I'm leaving this now. Needless to say I'm confident in my conviction that we'll be visiting the taser topic again and I'll be ready with the reminders for the nay sayers.


----------



## 8ball (Nov 12, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> I'm leaving this now. Needless to say I'm confident in my conviction that we'll be visiting the taser topic again and I'll be ready with the reminders for the nay sayers.



Ah right, if the subject of tasers ever comes up again it means you were right.


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 12, 2014)

xenon said:


> How does a police officer stop a violenoffence in progress? Hit the offender with sticks? They could still die you know.


How did they manage before the taser?


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 12, 2014)

8ball said:


> Ah right, if the subject of tasers ever comes up again it means you were right.


Wait and see. I'm patient.


----------



## bubblesmcgrath (Nov 12, 2014)

Maybe a thought could be spared for the woman. ...


----------



## xenon (Nov 12, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> How did they manage before the taser?


Sticks or or more likely in a scenario like this, and armed response unit would be sent id have thought. That always turned out well.


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 12, 2014)

bubblesmcgrath said:


> Maybe a thought could be spared for the woman. ...


Very good. Check my very first post.


----------



## 8ball (Nov 12, 2014)

bubblesmcgrath said:


> Maybe a thought could be spared for the woman. ...



Most of the focus has been on the woman going from the news reports I've seen.


----------



## Spymaster (Nov 12, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> I'm confident in my conviction



Me too; and after due process.

Take him down.


----------



## Dr_Herbz (Nov 12, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> I'm leaving this now. Needless to say I'm confident in my conviction that we'll be visiting the taser topic again and I'll be ready with the reminders for the nay sayers.


How will future cases have any bearing on this case?


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 12, 2014)

Dr_Herbz said:


> How will future cases have any bearing on this case?



How will the use of tasers have any bearing on the use of tasers?

Fuck knows.


----------



## bubblesmcgrath (Nov 12, 2014)

RIP Cerys Marie ....


----------



## Dr_Herbz (Nov 12, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> How will the unjustified use of tasers have any bearing on the justified use of tasers?
> 
> Fuck knows.



FTFY


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 12, 2014)

Dr_Herbz said:


> FTFY



An acceptable level of fatalities.


----------



## Dr_Herbz (Nov 12, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> An acceptable level of fatalities.


If you say so. I'd rather there were no fatalities at all but eating someone's face will always come with certain risks.


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 12, 2014)

Dr_Herbz said:


> If you say so. I'd rather there were no fatalities at all but eating someone's face will always come with certain risks.


Both deaths were entirely preventable.


----------



## bubblesmcgrath (Nov 12, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> Both deaths were entirely preventable.



Whose was murder?


----------



## 8ball (Nov 12, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> Both deaths were entirely preventable.



Stopped clocks...


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 12, 2014)

bubblesmcgrath said:


> Whose was murder?


Well, arguably neither.


----------



## Dr_Herbz (Nov 12, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> Both deaths were entirely preventable.


How do you know, were you there?


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 12, 2014)

Dr_Herbz said:


> How do you know, were you there?


Lulwut? 

If he was receiving the treatment he should have been or sectioned under the mental health act he wouldn't have been in the position to kill her ergo wouldn't have been tasered for it. 

Don't inflict anymore idiocy onto the thread pls.


----------



## scifisam (Nov 12, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> Both deaths were entirely preventable.


By giving him better mental health treatment? Agreed (I think that point's been made a few times on this thread). 

But when that didn't happen, he had to be stopped. 

Do you think tasers are uniquely damaging, btw? More than truncheons or guns? Not a rhetorical question.


----------



## bubblesmcgrath (Nov 12, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> Well, arguably neither.



So he didn't mean to eat her to death ...
Guy serves half of a five year sentence for violent assault on his ex.
He's released and goes out with a woman...perfectly normal. ....buys her a few drinks.....perfectly controlled. ...brings her back to his hotel and assaults her...his assault is so bad that staff break down the door and there he is eating her face and eyeball. 

Yeah.....I guess it was manslaughter...


----------



## Dr_Herbz (Nov 12, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> Lulwut?
> 
> If he was receiving the treatment he should have been or sectioned under the mental health act he wouldn't have been in the position to kill her ergo wouldn't have been tasered for it.
> 
> Don't inflict anymore idiocy onto the thread pls.


If he'd never been born... etc 

Were you dropped on your head (very often) as a child?


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 12, 2014)

scifisam said:


> By giving him better mental health treatment? Agreed (I think that point's been made a few times on this thread).
> 
> But when that didn't happen, he had to be stopped.
> 
> Do you think tasers are uniquely damaging, btw? More than truncheons or guns? Not a rhetorical question.


You think a weapon is the only option to subdue someone? There's like one of him and several of you. If that was the case we'd be seeing waaaaay more fatalities when it comes to apprehending violent offenders than we do.


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 12, 2014)

bubblesmcgrath said:


> So he didn't mean to eat her to death ...
> Guy serves half of a five year sentence for violent assault on his ex.
> He's released and goes out with a woman...perfectly normal. ....buys her a few drinks.....perfectly controlled. ...brings her back to his hotel and assaults her...his assault is so bad that staff break down the door and there he is eating her face and eyeball.
> 
> Yeah.....I guess it was manslaughter...



Do you think he invited her back to his hotel because he was planning on killing her then?


----------



## bubblesmcgrath (Nov 12, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> You think a weapon is the only option to subdue someone? There's like one of him and several of you. If that was the case we'd be seeing waaaaay more fatalities when it comes to apprehending violent offenders than we do.




Put yourself in the policewomans shoes. 
The woman is still alive.
The cannibal is eating her. 
You have a taser.
You havr a baton.
What would you do?


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 12, 2014)

Dr_Herbz said:


> If he'd never been born... etc
> 
> Were you dropped on your head (very often) as a child?



There's already reports that he wasn't receiving the care he needed following his release from prison. Maybe you think Cerys needed to die so you could get a boner over the perp getteing tasered but there was failures in the system that led to this tragedy.


----------



## Dr_Herbz (Nov 12, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> You think a weapon is the only option to subdue someone? There's like one of him and several of you.


A Welsh male voice choir could have sung him a lullaby and hope it sent him to sleep... power in numbers!


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 12, 2014)

bubblesmcgrath said:


> Put yourself in the policewomans shoes.
> The woman is still alive.
> The cannibal is eating her.
> You have a taser.
> ...



We haven't finished discussing your insistence that it was murder yet. What's this. Spin the bottle to find the argument time?


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 12, 2014)

Dr_Herbz said:


> A Welsh male voice choir could have sung him a lullaby and hope it sent him to sleep... power in numbers!



They could have sent him to sleep much quicker by showing him your online contributions and saved everyone their singing voice.


----------



## Dr_Herbz (Nov 12, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> There's already reports that he wasn't receiving the care he needed following his release from prison. Maybe you think Cerys needed to die so you could get a boner over the perp getteing tasered but there was failures in the system that led to this tragedy.


Ah right... it was the pharmacist who murdered her. Why didn't you say so earlier!


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 12, 2014)

Dr_Herbz said:


> Ah right... it was the pharmacist who murdered her. Why didn't you say so earlier!



Are you and bubbles a double act or something? The internet's answer to The Krankies?

Seldom you see one without the other making an appearance.


----------



## bubblesmcgrath (Nov 12, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> There's already reports that he wasn't receiving the care he needed following his release from prison. Maybe you think Cerys needed to die so you could get a boner over the perp getteing tasered but there was failures in the system that led to this tragedy.



Tbh ... they may have given him a prescription on leaving prison...he may have decided not to take his meds .... who knows....its all conjecture.
What is known is that he was behaving in a normal way...going out...shopping...having a drink....meeting people...
Until he ate his date.


----------



## Dr_Herbz (Nov 12, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> Are you and bubbles a double act or something? The internet's answer to The Krankies?
> 
> Seldom you see one without the other making an appearance.


Maybe she also gets her kicks out of taking the piss out of bellends?


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 12, 2014)

bubblesmcgrath said:


> Tbh ... they may have given him a prescription on leaving prison...he may have decided not to take his meds .... who knows....its all conjecture.
> What is known is that he was behaving in a normal way...going out...shopping...having a drink....meeting people...
> Until he ate his date.



If you view this situation in isolation maybe. But his mother said it was a pattern. He had these issues for years. He'd get incarcerated, released, care would evaporate and he'd offend again.


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 12, 2014)

Dr_Herbz said:


> Maybe she also gets her kicks out of taking the piss out of bellends?



Omgz someone on the internet called me a bellend lol.


----------



## 8ball (Nov 12, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> If you view this situation in isolation maybe. But his mother said it was a pattern. He had these issues for years. He'd get incarcerated, released, care would evaporate and he'd offend again.



Yeah, sounds like something has gone very wrong repeatedly here.


----------



## bubblesmcgrath (Nov 12, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> We haven't finished discussing your insistence that it was murder yet. What's this. Spin the bottle to find the argument time?



I asked "whose was murder.?"



Citizen66 said:


> If you view this situation in isolation maybe. But his mother said it was a pattern. He had these issues for years. He'd get incarcerated, released, care would evaporate and he'd offend again.



It's even worse than that..
He's let out and decides to eat a woman. 
That Policewoman did what she could to save the innocent victim.


----------



## Dr_Herbz (Nov 12, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> Omgz someone on the internet called me a bellend lol.


Have you stopped to wonder who nobody else is fighting your corner here? It's because you're being a bellend.


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 12, 2014)

bubblesmcgrath said:


> I asked "whose was murder.?"
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Who wasn't saved.


----------



## bubblesmcgrath (Nov 12, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> Who wasn't saved.



The victim


----------



## Dr_Herbz (Nov 12, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> Who wasn't saved.



There's a chance the victim might not live so we might as well let him carry on eating her.


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 12, 2014)

Dr_Herbz said:


> Have you stopped to wonder who nobody else is fighting your corner here? It's because you're being a bellend.



Or because I don't need anyone fighting my corner. I don't see great swathes of people attacking my position either besides right wingers; and Aladin and Widow Twanky.


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 12, 2014)

Dr_Herbz said:


> There's a chance the victim might not live so we might as well let him carry on eating her.



Yes that's what i was saying. Bring out the strawmen.


----------



## Dr_Herbz (Nov 12, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> Or because I don't need anyone fighting my corner. I don't see great swathes of people attacking my position either besides right wingers; and Aladin and Widow Twanky.


LOL... this is Urban75... If there was the slightest chance this cop was wrong in using the taser, this thread would be 100 pages long already.


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 12, 2014)

bubblesmcgrath said:


> The victim



Yes, killing cannibal didn't save her despite you using that argument.


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 12, 2014)

Dr_Herbz said:


> LOL... this is Urban75... If there was the slightest chance this cop was wrong in using the taser, this thread would be 100 pages long already.



The rate you keep whittering on we'll reach that target.


----------



## Dr_Herbz (Nov 12, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> Yes, killing cannibal didn't save her despite you using that argument.


So he should have been left to finish his dinner? Maybe with a little post-it note stuck on his laptop, asking him to call to the police station when he'd finished?


----------



## bubblesmcgrath (Nov 12, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> Yes, killing cannibal didn't save her despite you using that argument.



No. Sadly she died of her injuries.
I guess the policewoman should have just left the room so that he could eat her other eyeball as she died.


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 12, 2014)

Well this is all very entertaining but I'm gonna do some creative stuff instead.

Being called names - lol


----------



## 8ball (Nov 12, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> Well this is all very entertaining but I'm gonna do some creative stuff instead.
> 
> Being called names - lol



You mean you're off to get called names recreationally in real life?


----------



## bubblesmcgrath (Nov 12, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> The rate you keep whittering on we'll reach that target.



There's no getting away from the fact that the policewoman tried to stop this man assaulting his victim using reasonable force (taser). 
And the fact he died later may or may not be related to the taser hit.
The postmortem and inquiry will tell all.


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 12, 2014)

8ball said:


> You mean you're off to get called names recreationally in real life?



Aye. And I'll take it in good spirit.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 12, 2014)

bubblesmcgrath said:


> There's no getting away from the fact that the policewoman tried to stop this man assaulting his victim using reasonable force (taser).
> And the fact he died later may or may not be related to the taser hit.
> The postmortem and inquiry will tell all.


you are _assuming_ that the use of the taser was reasonable. on what do you base this assumption?


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 12, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> Well this is all very entertaining but I'm gonna do some creative stuff instead.
> 
> Being called names - lol


finbungjugaree


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 12, 2014)

But of course i'll keep my eye on the thread. Especially now picky's here to bust balls.


----------



## bubblesmcgrath (Nov 12, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> Well this is all very entertaining but I'm gonna do some creative stuff instead.
> 
> Being called names - lol



It's not entertaining at all 
A woman died at the hands of a violent brutal man who used his teeth to pull flesh from her face and pulled out her eye while she was still alive.
She died a dreadfully painful and horrifically brutal death.

Get to grips with your amygdala.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 12, 2014)

bubblesmcgrath said:


> It's not entertaining at all
> A woman died at the hands of a violent brutal man who used his teeth to pull flesh from her face and pulled out her eye while she was still alive.
> She died a dreadfully painful and horrifically brutal death.
> 
> Get to grips with your amygdala.


so where do you get your 'fact' that the taser use was reasonable force from? has its reasonableness and proportionality been determined by a competent authority?


----------



## bubblesmcgrath (Nov 12, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> so where do you get your 'fact' that the taser use was reasonable force from? has its reasonableness and proportionality been determined by a competent authority?



Has it been disputed by a competent authority in this case?


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 12, 2014)

bubblesmcgrath said:


> It's not entertaining at all
> A woman died at the hands of a violent brutal man who used his teeth to pull flesh from her face and pulled out her eye while she was still alive.
> She died a dreadfully painful and horrifically brutal death.
> 
> Get to grips with your amygdala.



I meant being called names and your descriptive interest in the offence was entertaining. I'm sure the act itself wasn't so fun.


----------



## Spymaster (Nov 12, 2014)

Aaaaaand we're off again ...


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 12, 2014)

Spymaster said:


> Aaaaaand we're off again ...



The thread that never dies. Not even by covering it in petrol and firing the world's most powerful taser at it.


----------



## bubblesmcgrath (Nov 12, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> I'm sure the act itself wasn't so fun.



Big of you to consider what the woman went through.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 12, 2014)

bubblesmcgrath said:


> Has it been disputed by a competent authority in this case?


given that the matter's under investigation by the ipcc no conclusion's yet been drawn on whether it was reasonable.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 12, 2014)

bubblesmcgrath said:


> Big of you to consider what the woman went through.


tbh her sad ordeal lasted nowhere near as long as our suffering at your hands.*

_____
*our refers to the suffering of the u75 community


----------



## 8ball (Nov 12, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> given that the matter's under investigation by the ipcc no conclusion's yet been drawn on whether it was reasonable.



Obviously even then we could dispute whether a 'competent authority' has been involved, but nothing else is likely to be forthcoming.


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 12, 2014)

bubblesmcgrath said:


> Big of you to consider what the woman went through.



You mean Cerys? The woman who half an hour ago you emplored we spare a thought for whose name you've now forgotten?


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 12, 2014)

8ball said:


> Obviously even then we could dispute whether a 'competent authority' has been involved, but nothing else is likely to be forthcoming.


one thing which will undoubtedly be forthcoming is another series of cringeworthy posts from bubblesmcgrath.


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 12, 2014)

And her glove puppet Dr_Herbz


----------



## Dr_Herbz (Nov 12, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> And her glove puppet Dr_Herbz


You've been here long enough to know how it works. You make a dick of yourself and you get pulled on it. You got pulled on it... get over it.

P.S. You know you're on a hiding to nothing when Pickman's likes your posts.
(waits for 'like' from predictable Pickman's)


----------



## Spymaster (Nov 12, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> The thread that never dies.



It needs to now, tbh. It's gone from bizarre to demented.


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 12, 2014)

If i get pulled on something by someone who isn't a dick then i tend to question my position, yeah.

Hence me being untroubled on this occasion.


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 12, 2014)

Spymaster said:


> It needs to now, tbh. It's gone from bizarre to demented.



We need the will to do this. Starting with you, stop...... Posting....... On........ It.........


----------



## bubblesmcgrath (Nov 12, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> one thing which will undoubtedly be forthcoming is another series of cringeworthy posts from bubblesmcgrath.



You're following me around these boards.....and trawling out the same provocative trolling shite.
Fuck off and get a life


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 12, 2014)

bubblesmcgrath said:


> You're following me around these boards.....and trawling out the same provocative trolling shite.
> Fuck off and get a life



He posted on this thread before you did. Him at #11. So you must be following him.


----------



## bubblesmcgrath (Nov 12, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> He posted on this thread before you did. Him at #11. So you must be following him.



He is trolling my posts.
Stay out of this.


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 12, 2014)

bubblesmcgrath said:


> He is trolling my posts.
> Stay out of this.



Well maybe you said something to upset him?


----------



## bubblesmcgrath (Nov 12, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> Well maybe you said something to upset him?




I said stay out of this


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 12, 2014)

bubblesmcgrath said:


> You're following me around these boards.....and trawling out the same provocative trolling shite.
> Fuck off and get a life


things are trawled IN and not OUT

insult fail


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 12, 2014)

bubblesmcgrath said:


> I said stay out of this



Don't tell me what to do.


----------



## bubblesmcgrath (Nov 12, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> Don't tell me what to do.



Fuck off .
And stay out of this.


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 12, 2014)

bubblesmcgrath said:


> Fuck off .
> And stay out of this.



If he's rattled you you've already lost this. He will find every single hole to be exposed in everything you ever have to say - he's excruciatingly meticulous - and he never gives in.

What did you say to piss him off?


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 12, 2014)

Dr_Herbz said:


> You've been here long enough to know how it works. You make a dick of yourself and you get pulled on it. You got pulled on it... get over it.
> 
> P.S. You know you're on a hiding to nothing when Pickman's likes your posts.
> (waits for 'like' from predictable Pickman's)


i'd sooner have my face eaten off by bubblesmcgrath than like your post


----------



## Dr_Herbz (Nov 12, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> i'd sooner have my face eaten off by bubblesmcgrath than like your post


I really think you should stop taking your sexual frustrations out on bubblesmcgrath. Just dig out a few issues of Woman's Own magazine and fire some knuckle children over the agony aunt pages.


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 12, 2014)

Tag teaming.


----------



## Dr_Herbz (Nov 12, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> Tag teaming.


No, just commenting on Pickman's stalking.


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 12, 2014)

Dr_Herbz said:


> No, just commenting on Pickman's stalking.



Why does it bother you? If you stalked pickman's, for example, i a) probably wouldn't know about it and b) wouldn't give a shit if you were.


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 12, 2014)

You and bubbles are mates off the boards. Yes? Im pleased we got that cleared up.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 12, 2014)

Dr_Herbz said:


> I really think you should stop taking your sexual frustrations out on bubblesmcgrath. Just dig out a few issues of Woman's Own magazine and fire some knuckle children over the agony aunt pages.


i don't believe you really think. if you did you wouldn't post wank like that ^


----------



## Dr_Herbz (Nov 12, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> Why does it bother you? If you stalked pickman's, for example, i a) probably wouldn't know about it and b) wouldn't give a shit if you were.


Same reason it bothered me when Silent Whisper was getting stalked and bullied.

Why is your tongue so far up his arse? Are you secret lovers?


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 12, 2014)

Dr_Herbz said:


> Same reason it bothered me when Silent Whisper was getting stalked and bullied.
> 
> Why is your tongue so far up his arse? Are you secret lovers?


it's all about sex for you. you're not getting any, are you.


----------



## Dr_Herbz (Nov 12, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> it's all about sex for you. you're not getting any, are you.


From the man with small man syndrome who gets his kicks from stalking girls on internet forums


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 12, 2014)

Dr_Herbz said:


> Same reason it bothered me when Silent Whisper was getting stalked and bullied.
> 
> Why is your tongue so far up his arse? Are you secret lovers?



Isn't it funny how you have these affinities with all these new trolls what with having a trolling history yourself? 

My 'tongue is up his arse' because he thinks bubbles is a cunt and i think you are and you two have paired up. Apart from that, my tongue is in my mouth.


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 12, 2014)

Dr_Herbz said:


> From the man with small man syndrome who gets his kicks from stalking girls on internet forums



This is all sounding very familiar. 

Please don't let it be.


----------



## Dr_Herbz (Nov 12, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> Isn't it funny how you have these affinities with all these new trolls what with having a trolling history yourself?



Not really, I just despise bullying. Pickman's does it because he has an inferiority complex, and he chooses what he considers to be vulnerable women to bully, because... well, you decide.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 12, 2014)

Dr_Herbz said:


> From the man with small man syndrome who gets his kicks from stalking girls on internet forums


you're the only one here going on about size. i wonder what that might mean.


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 12, 2014)

Dr_Herbz said:


> Not really, I just despise bullying. Pickman's does it because he has an inferiority complex, and he chooses what he considers to be vulnerable women to bully, because... well, you decide.



And you and bubbles aren't here on a windup at all. You can't blag a blagger, mate.


----------



## Dr_Herbz (Nov 12, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> And you and bubbles aren't here on a windup at all. You can't blag a blagger, mate.


No, I'm being deadly serious. I despise bullying cunts.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 12, 2014)

Dr_Herbz said:


> Not really, I just despise bullying. Pickman's does it because he has an inferiority complex, and he chooses what he considers to be vulnerable women to bully, because... well, you decide.


eh? if i've a history of bullying women i'm sure toggle, equationgirl, aqua or mango5 would have made it clear.


----------



## Dr_Herbz (Nov 12, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> eh? if i've a history of bullying women i'm sure toggle, equationgirl, aqua or mango5 would have made it clear.


LOL


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 12, 2014)

Dr_Herbz said:


> No, I'm being deadly serious. I despise bullying cunts.



Hummus is nice with Jacob's crackers.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 12, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> If he's rattled you you've already lost this. He will find every single hole to be exposed in everything you ever have to say - he's excruciatingly meticulous - and he never gives in.
> 
> What did you say to piss him off?



Fuck me, we've had our differences in the past but this is seriously low of you IMO.

You know what his MO is , you've laid it out clearly and you are still victim blaming?

Disappointing, seriously.


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 12, 2014)

Rutita1 said:


> Fuck me, we've had our difference but this is seriously low.
> 
> You know what his MO is and you are victim blaming.
> 
> Disappointing, seriously.



I can also spot genuine posters from those on the piss take. You apparently can't.


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 12, 2014)

I generally leave the fly-by-night mickey takers alone. Some people become obsessed by them as evidenced with foxyred but I generally leave them alone. On this thread they've decided to pal up and make me the focus of their shite. Don't criticise me then taking a swipe when they volunteer to put themselves on my radar, ta. They're a pair of muppets.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 12, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> I can also spot genuine posters from those on the piss take. You apparently can't.



Whatever Trevor.


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 12, 2014)

Rutita1 said:


> Whatever Trevor.



There's the truth, ....


----------



## bubblesmcgrath (Nov 12, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> eh? if i've a history of bullying women i'm sure toggle, equationgirl, aqua or mango5 would have made it clear.



I've made it clear.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 12, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> I generally leave the fly-by-night mickey takers alone. Some people become obsessed by them as evidenced with foxyred but I generally leave them alone. On this thread they've decided to pal up and make me the focus of their shite. Don't criticise me then taking a swipe when they volunteer to put themselves on my radar, ta. They're a pair of muppets.



I wasn't. I was criticising your defence of something different entirely. If they are fucking you off by all means defend yourself but justifying shitty behaviour of a serial bully is rubbish.


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 12, 2014)

Rutita1 said:


> I wasn't. I was criticising your defence of something different entirely. If they are fucking you off by all means defend yourself but justifying shitty behaviour of another serial bully is rubbish.



Um, okay. There's two of them and one of him.


----------



## bubblesmcgrath (Nov 12, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> I can also spot genuine posters from those on the piss take. You apparently can't.



Just as you can spot a shoot to kill policewoman?
You throw your stupid accusations around about me?
Fuck off .


----------



## bubblesmcgrath (Nov 12, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> Um, okay. There's two of them and one of him.



You're excluding yourself


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 12, 2014)

bubblesmcgrath said:


> Just as you can spot a shoot to kill policewoman?
> You throw your stupid accusations around about me?
> Fuck off .



Is there a thread that you've posted on that hasn't ended in acrimony, out of curiosity?


----------



## Dr_Herbz (Nov 12, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> I generally leave the fly-by-night mickey takers alone. Some people become obsessed by them as evidenced with foxyred but I generally leave them alone. On this thread they've decided to pal up and make me the focus of their shite. Don't criticise me then taking a swipe when they volunteer to put themselves on my radar, ta. They're a pair of muppets.


In fairness, you are making ridiculous comments that need ridiculing, and now you're trying to put the heat on others, because you've been exposed as a bit of a bellend.


----------



## bubblesmcgrath (Nov 12, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> I generally leave the fly-by-night mickey takers alone. Some people become obsessed by them as evidenced with foxyred but I generally leave them alone. On this thread they've decided to pal up and make me the focus of their shite. Don't criticise me then taking a swipe when they volunteer to put themselves on my radar, ta. They're a pair of muppets.




I asked you repeatedly to stay out of this. 
You didn't. 
Now you're complaining.


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 12, 2014)

bubblesmcgrath said:


> You're excluding yourself



I don't feel bullied so why would I include myself?

Or are you suggesting that your double act endevours towards me is evidence of my bullying?


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 12, 2014)

bubblesmcgrath said:


> I asked you repeatedly to stay out of this.
> You didn't.
> Now you're complaining.



To stay out of what? The thread? You and your mate were already tag teaming on me at that point.


----------



## bubblesmcgrath (Nov 12, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> Is there a thread that you've posted on that hasn't ended in acrimony, out of curiosity?



More accusations without proof

Great examples of innocent til proven guilty eh?

Obviously you've not read half the board.


----------



## Dr_Herbz (Nov 12, 2014)




----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 12, 2014)

bubblesmcgrath said:


> I've made it clear.


oh dear. have i hurt your feelings sweetling? why don't you go and create another youtube video like you did before and send me another abusive pm?  the thing is, you can't hold your own in an argument. you can't. you're always answering a different question to the one at hand.


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 12, 2014)

Dr_Herbz said:


> In fairness, you are making ridiculous comments that need ridiculing, and now you're trying to put the heat on others, because you've been exposed as a bit of a bellend.



Name calling 

If you want to make me look a dick then muster up some kind of political argument against the one I posted up pages ago that posters such as yourself ignored. If you can't then it isn't me that looks like a bellend.


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 12, 2014)

Dr_Herbz said:


>



Gif posts. Urban has sunk.


----------



## bubblesmcgrath (Nov 12, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> On this thread they've decided to pal up and make me the focus of their shite. Don't criticise me then taking a swipe when they volunteer to put themselves on my radar, ta. They're a pair of muppets.





Citizen66 said:


> I don't feel bullied so why would I include myself?
> 
> Or are you suggesting that your double act endevours towards me is evidence of my bullying?



Look. You made a tit of yourself and didn't have the balls to just say your judgement on the taser issue in this thread was flawed.
Then you decided to join pickman in his picky one man show.
You were asked to stay out of it but no you just keep throwing shit.
Now you're twisting it ...
Just let this crap go.


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 12, 2014)

bubblesmcgrath said:


> More accusations without proof
> 
> Great examples of innocent til proven guilty eh?
> 
> Obviously you've not read half the board.



Ive read more of this board than you ever will.


----------



## Dr_Herbz (Nov 12, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> Gif posts. Urban has sunk.


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 12, 2014)

bubblesmcgrath said:


> Look. You made a tit of yourself and didn't have the balls to just say your judgement on the taser issue in this thread was flawed.
> Then you decided to join packman in his picky one man show.
> You were asked to stay out of it but no you just keep throwing shit.
> Now you're twisting it ...
> Just let this crap go.



You let it go.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 12, 2014)

bubblesmcgrath said:


> Look. You made a tit of yourself and didn't have the balls to just say your judgement on the taser issue in this thread was flawed.
> Then you decided to join packman in his picky one man show.
> You were asked to stay out of it but no you just keep throwing shit.
> Now you're twisting it ...
> Just let this crap go.


twisting shit? wash your hands this minute Citizen66


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 12, 2014)

Dr_Herbz said:


>



Beautiful insight. Keep it coming.


----------



## bubblesmcgrath (Nov 12, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> oh dear. have i hurt your feelings sweetling? why don't you go and create another youtube video like you did before and send me another abusive pm?  the thing is, you can't hold your own in an argumentative. you can't. you're always answering a different question to the one at hand.



Let's jog your memory .
You called me a man..a returner..a troll..a liar...you ridiculed  my sexual abuse. ..you have done nothing but bully me from day one with your personal digs...and snide remarks.


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 12, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> twisting shit? wash your hands this minute Citizen66



How boring is urban nowadays? 

They think they're new at this shit or something without the knowledge of history of what passed before.


----------



## Ax^ (Nov 12, 2014)

Welcome to urban 

Have a hobnob


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 12, 2014)

bubblesmcgrath said:


> Let's jog your memory .
> You called me a man..a returner..a troll..a liar...you ridiculed the my sexual abuse. ..you have done nothing but bully me from day one with your personal digs...and snide remarks.


i've ridiculed your sexual abuse? what did you do?


----------



## bubblesmcgrath (Nov 12, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> How boring is urban nowadays?
> 
> They think they're new at this shit or something without the knowledge of history of what passed before.



You probably passed an even bigger shit


----------



## Spymaster (Nov 12, 2014)




----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 12, 2014)

Spymaster said:


>



Anything to do with you?


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 12, 2014)

bubblesmcgrath said:


> You probably passed an even bigger shit



This is really terrible stuff. We used to get high brow trolls.


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 12, 2014)

Being called a bellend and crying about mistreatment. Rutita nailing her colours to the mast because she doesn't like Pm.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 12, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> This is really terrible stuff. We used to get high brow trolls.


when you compare our really good trolls like dwyer with dross like bubbles you see how low trolls have gone, plumbing the depths of human degradation


----------



## Spymaster (Nov 12, 2014)

Rutita1 said:


> Anything to do with you?



I don't _think_ so. I bailed-out a while ago.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 12, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> Being called a bellend and crying about mistreatment. Rutita nailing her colours to the mast because she doesn't like Pm.


yeh but rutita's 1000x the poster bubbles will ever be.


----------



## bubblesmcgrath (Nov 12, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> i've ridiculed your sexual abuse? what did you do?



You're an obnoxious scumbag.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 12, 2014)

Spymaster said:


> I don't _think_ so. I bailed-out a while ago.


yeh you're famous for running away


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 12, 2014)

Spymaster said:


> I don't _think_ so. I bailed-out a while ago.



Grinning and rubbing your hands with glee.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 12, 2014)

bubblesmcgrath said:


> You're an obnoxious scumbag.


you say it like no one's ever noticed that before.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 12, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> Being called a bellend and crying about mistreatment. *Rutita nailing her colours to the mast because she doesn't like Pm.*



I dislike serial bullies that is correct...nailing my colours?  I've been here for 10 years, despite the stuff we've disagreed on in the past you know what my _colours_ are, I have no need to nail them  Trevor is that you?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 12, 2014)

Spymaster said:


> I don't _think_ so. I bailed-out a while ago.



Just raked the ground then?


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 12, 2014)

Rutita1 said:


> I dislike serial bullies that is correct...nailing my colours?   Trevor is that you?



You're very selective over who you think the bullies are then.


----------



## Spymaster (Nov 12, 2014)

Rutita1 said:


> Just raked the ground then?



Nah. Having a partially relevant barney with C66 was fun for a while, then it got, well, ^^^ like this.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 12, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> You're very selective over who you think the bullies are then.



I really am not, as much as possible.

As I said, if people here are giving you shit, get stuck in and defend yourself. Just like I do/would.

What I disliked/quoted/challenged was your outlining his MO on this site and suggesting that the person who has been on the end of his treatment is at fault.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 12, 2014)

Spymaster said:


> Nah. Having a partially relevant barney with C66 was fun for a while, then it got, well ^^^ like this.




Not me guv, just having a quiet pint


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## Pickman's model (Nov 12, 2014)

tbh i've been far kinder to bubblesmcgrath than i ever was to mozaz


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## Citizen66 (Nov 12, 2014)

I never did do creative stuff instead.


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 12, 2014)

Rutita1 said:


> I really am not, as much as possible.
> 
> As I said, if people here are giving you shit, get stuck in and defend yourself. Just like I do/would.
> 
> What I disliked/quoted/challenged was your outlining his MO on this site is and suggesting that the person who has been on the end of their treatment is at fault.



Yes, that's what I said. Because said person appears to be intentionally contentious in all instances I've seen.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 12, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> I never did do creative stuff instead.



Why don't you? 

Haunts me in a good way


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 12, 2014)

Rutita1 said:


> Why don't you?
> 
> Haunts me in a good way



Because its bed time again. 

I really need to not get involved in threads like this. I can't help being acab.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 12, 2014)

Rutita1 said:


> I really am not, as much as possible.
> 
> As I said, if people here are giving you shit, get stuck in and defend yourself. Just like I do/would.
> 
> What I disliked/quoted/challenged was your outlining his MO on this site and suggesting that the person who has been on the end of his treatment is at fault.


perhaps you should consider challenging people who post stuff which can't be defended. for example, bubbles' claim that it is a fact the cop who tasered yer man in wales used reasonable force, when such is not yet known. after all, it's her inability to defend that assertion which sparked this little detour.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 12, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> Because its bed time again.
> 
> I really need to not get involved in threads like this. I can't help being acab.



Nailing your colours etc  

Go to bed...seriously....it's been a while since I posted this/seen it posted but how often do we need to learn this shit?


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 12, 2014)

Rutita1 said:


> Nailing your colours etc
> 
> Go to bed...seriously....it's been a while since I posted this/seen it posted but how often do we need to learn this shit?




The problem is we enjoy that shit.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 12, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> The problem is we enjoy that shit.


it is at the heart of urban75.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 12, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> The problem is we enjoy that shit.



Precisely....a dump ground for other shit I am sure!

/legs it to bed


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 12, 2014)

Rutita1 said:


> Precisely....a dump ground for other shit I am sure!
> 
> /legs it to bed


yeh, it's nearly the midden of the night.


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 12, 2014)

Audio book about Fred and Rose for me to get me to sleepy-kins.

The cunt about it is you fall asleep - then it wakes you a few hours later when your cycle allows your ears to work again and then you can't remember where you were up to.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 12, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> Audio book about Fred and Rose for me to get me to sleepy-kins.


i don't suppose it has a happy ending.


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 12, 2014)

I doubt ill ever reach the gruesome stuff. Sleep envelops me too rapidly.


----------



## Grandma Death (Nov 12, 2014)

FridgeMagnet said:


> His mother was saying this morning that he was under treatment for his paranoid schizophrenia while he was in prison - which he has been for a lot of his adult life - but after he was discharged they didn't provide treatment/medication. http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-south-east-wales-29981512




Indeed. Very close to home for me this. My hometown. My niece knew Cerys and my mate went to school with the perp. He's always suffered from mental health problems and this catastrophic and tragic ending appears to be one long line of fuck ups.

There are plenty of questions to be asked. He was a persistent offender and a prolific drug user. Why was a man with a known history of drug use and mental health problems released with pretty much zero support? I think if anything its indicative to the haphazard post code lottery approach to mental health problems.

As for the police killing him. Pointless arguing the toss whether the force was justified or not. Most tazered people dont die. 

Its been referred to the IPCC and whatever did happen in that room will almost certainly result in nothing happening to the police given he is now dead and only the police who will give their side of the story.

Tazers carry a risk-but on balance I'd rather the police carry them than guns. The fact is this man was clearly out of control. He was suffering from an extreme violent paranoia episode-possibly fuelled by drugs. It doesnt sound like a man who was eating the face of a woman that was still alive in that state could've been reasoned with. So I think on balance they were probably right to attempt to subdue him by the means available to them.

When I heard about the case and the more I hear about it-the more Im convinced the police havent done anything wrong. Doesnt mean they shouldnt be investigated.

Im more pissed off that people like this are released with little or no support.


----------



## Grandma Death (Nov 12, 2014)

Spymaster said:


> Ok, whatever. Chances are she didn't know _exactly_ what to expect and was told to "investigate a disturbance" or "a man attacking a woman", or several coppers were alerted but she arrived first.
> 
> There are now multiple reports saying that she arrived first and alone.


 
The landlady discovered williams first-then ran out of the room. Held the door shut until the police arrived. So they responded to her call.


----------



## Spymaster (Nov 12, 2014)

Grandma Death said:


> The landlady discovered williams first-then ran out of the room. Held the door shut until the police arrived.



Apparently so.

Spunky stuff, holding onto the doornob, if true.


----------



## Grandma Death (Nov 12, 2014)

Spymaster said:


> Apparently so.
> 
> Spunky stuff, holding onto the doornob, if true.



I read he didnt even look up when she came in. That being the case-sounds like he was in the 'zone'

I just feel so distressed by what was going through her mind-he was biting off her face...and she was alive when it was happening. That poor girl. When I hear about victims of violent crime or rape  it just breaks my heart when I think about the sheer fear, pain etc they must be going through....which doesnt stop for the parents. How the fuck are her parents going to live with the knowledge their daughter was eaten alive?


----------



## bubblesmcgrath (Nov 12, 2014)

Grandma Death said:


> I read he didnt even look up when she came in. That being the case-sounds like he was in the 'zone'
> 
> I just feel so distressed by what was going through her mind-he was biting off her face...and she was alive when it was happening. That poor girl. When I hear about victims of violent crime or rape  it just breaks my heart when I think about the sheer fear, pain etc they must be going through....which doesnt stop for the parents. How the fuck are her parents going to live with the knowledge their daughter was eaten alive?




It is extremely distressing. She hadn't a hope ...


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 13, 2014)

.


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## Spymaster (Nov 13, 2014)

.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 13, 2014)

Spymaster said:


> .


.


----------



## Spymaster (Nov 13, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> .





Pickman's model said:


> .


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 13, 2014)

Spymaster said:


> .



cat got your tongue?


----------



## Spymaster (Nov 13, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> .





Pickman's model said:


> .





Pickman's model said:


> .


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 13, 2014)

Spymaster said:


> .


it was my bait. and you were hooked.


----------



## Spymaster (Nov 13, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> .





Pickman's model said:


> .





Pickman's model said:


> .





Pickman's model said:


> .


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## Pickman's model (Nov 13, 2014)

and i said more of value in those four posts than you have in 28,949.


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## Spymaster (Nov 13, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> .





Pickman's model said:


> .





Pickman's model said:


> .





Pickman's model said:


> .





Pickman's model said:


> .


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## Pickman's model (Nov 13, 2014)

make that 28,950


----------



## Spymaster (Nov 13, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> .





Pickman's model said:


> .





Pickman's model said:


> .





Pickman's model said:


> .





Pickman's model said:


> .





Pickman's model said:


> .


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## Pickman's model (Nov 13, 2014)

... 28,951 ...


----------



## Spymaster (Nov 13, 2014)

91,302


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 13, 2014)

Spymaster said:


> 91,302


yes, 91,302 little parcels of joy i've shared here. 91,303 now.


----------



## Spymaster (Nov 13, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> .


----------

