# John Bowden - latest news



## The Black Hand (Jan 13, 2008)

In late December 2007, following a lengthy investigation by Perth and Kinross Council into my complaint that Matt Stillman, a social worker employed by them and temporarily seconded to Castle Huntly jail last year, had deliberately lied in a critically important parole report about my involvement with what he had claimed was a “terrorist organisation”, the Council has issued the following statement: 

“The complaint concerned two specific statements in the report for the Parole Board that was completed by Matt Stillman. 

Statement 1: That Brighton Anarchist Black Cross website was a website for eco-terrorists or paramilitaries, and that you were involved with this organisation. On investigation, there is no evidence to substantiate the claims made in the report to the Parole Board. Our conclusion is that the website, although clearly political is not paramilitary or eco-terrorist, therefore the statement to the Parole Board is incorrect. 

Statement 2: That the prisoner (John Bowden) whilst in Edinburgh Prison received visits from terrorists. On investigation the officer could find no evidence to support this allegation in either Social Work or Prison files. Therefore again we conclude that this statement is incorrect.” 

Inaccurate reporting is commonplace in parole reports but rarely has such a report prepared by a social worker contained such a dramatic allegation that a prisoner currently in an open jail in preparation for release is in fact a member of a terrorist organisation. When Stillman’s report was submitted last April the consequences were extreme and brutal. Just a month before a crucial parole tribunal to decide my suitability for release after 25 years in prison, I was suddenly thrown into solitary confinement and then transferred from Castle Huntly Open Prison to Maximum-Security Glenochil Prison. A local newspaper, The Dundee Courier, screamed across front-page headlines, “Castle Huntly Killer Has Terrorist connection” and published verbatim Stillman’s ludicrous claim that Anarchist Black Cross (in fact a perfectly legal and legitimate prisoner support group) was composed wholly of terrorists and paramilitaries, some of whom had visited me in prison. 

The prison system itself, against whom I’d campaigned against for years in furtherance of prisoner’s rights, jumped at the opportunity to bury me againin maximum-security conditions and use Stillman’s claims to justify subjecting me to a battery of psychological assessments and evaluations to determine the extent of my dramatically increased danger to the public. The only thing I was able to marshal in my defence was the support of ABC friends and comrades on the outside who protested and demonstrated on my behalf and campaigned tirelessly to expose Stillman’s lies. Their efforts alone forced the Scottish Prison system to take a more defensive position and distance themselves from Stillman’s ridiculous claims. Finally in October last year, following the completion of an “updated psychological risk-assesment” report on me by forensic psychologist, Dawn Harris, who explicitly rubbished Stillman’s allegations. 

Although the prison system has backed down in the face of the prolonged protests organised by ABC on my behalf, Stillman’s lies had cost me six months locked-down in maximum-security and at least another year, possibly more, in prison. Stillman was investigated by Perth and Kinross Council, who provide the social work team at Castle Huntly Prison, and when initially questioned by their investigation officer he claimed that he had been “advised” by others about the nature of the ABC organisation. When questioned further about the source of his information regarding ABC he changed his story and claimed that he had seen some reference to it in an existing prison file on me. The investigation revealed this to be a lie. Stillman was clearly guilty of malpractice in deliberately presenting lies as fact in an official parole report, and yet he remains employed by Social services in Fife and to date hasn’t been subject to any form of disciplinary action. 

They conclude the report of their investigation with the following: “As a result of this investigation we have looked at our procedures when producing parole reports and will consider how we can ensure that proper stands are met, etc, etc”. Translated, this means that no concrete action will be taken against Stillman or his line-manager in the social work department at Castle Huntly, Christina Brown, who enclosed with Stillman’s report to the Prison Board a covering letter supporting the validity of Stillman’s claims and swearing to his honesty and integrity. Stillman’s lies were always going to be unsustainable when subjected to even a perfunctory examination, and the investigator at Perth and Kinross Council had little choice but to admit that. But that was as far as he was prepared to go – in terms of what motivated or encouraged stillman to make the accusation of terrorism against myself and ABC, the lid was placed back on. No one is culpable and a “lessons have been learned” statement considered adequate to close the matter. 

The matter, however, is far from closed. Apart from the Perth and Kinross investigation, the Scottish Social Service Council, a body set up to oversee and enforce a code of conduct in the treatment of service users, is also conducting an investigation into Stillman’s conduct following a complaint from me. Should the SSSC accept the decision of the Perth and Kinross investigation then the removal of Stillman’s social work licence on the grounds of misconduct should, by any standard of natural justice, follow. 

I intend also to pursue legal actions against both Stillman’s social work employers and the Scottish Prison Service, during which I intend to expose the full extent of the prison system’s complicity in Stillman’s lies and attempt to bury me indefinitely in prison. I would ask all supporters to write letters of complaint to the following: 

Dave Roberts, Executive Director of Perth and Kinross Council, 5 Whitefriars Crescent, Perth PH2 0PA demanding that proper disciplinary action be taken against Stillman and Christina Brown. 

Stephen Moore, Head of Social work at the Social Work Office, South Street, Glenrothes, Fife, KY7 5NL demanding that he explain why Stillman continues to be employed at Fife Social Services. 

Scottish Prison Service HQ, Communications Branch, Room 338, Calton House,5 Redheugh Rigg, Edinburgh, EH12 9HW demanding that Christina Brown, still employed at Castle Huntly Prison and so obviously complicit in encouraging Stillman to concoct lies in parole reports, be dismissed. 

Friends Of John Bowden 
 e-mail: handsoffjohn@reborn.com 
 Homepage: http://www.myspace.com/friendsofjohnbowden


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## Fullyplumped (Jan 13, 2008)

Mr Bowden seems to be a convicted murderer*, serving a life sentence in the Scottish prison system. He doesn't seem to be particularly remorseful about his crime and it the effect it had on others. He does seem to have discovered anarchist politics, which will be comforting for the friends ans family of his victim.  The investigation report from Perth & Kinross, if correctly reported, is very critical of the social worker's assessment, and no doubt that will be dealt with in due course. None of this sheds light on whether this convicted murderer is safe to be released into the community on licence.

*_You wouldn't learn about the murder conviction from the myspace website cited by Attica._


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## revol68 (Jan 13, 2008)

It was the State wot made him done it!!!1111!!11

A moment of drunken madness all too common when working class men drink and quarrel, apparently.


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## mk12 (Jan 13, 2008)

uh oh...


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## Fullyplumped (Jan 13, 2008)

Fortunately, the Internet does know a bit about Mr Bowden. The comments column in this story from something called Libcom is a bit more even handed. 

_In fact, he and 2 others were sentenced for luring a fellow drunkard to a flat (in other words, contrary to what you say, it was premediated), throwing him into a bath of boiling water, then dismembering him while he was still alive, keeping his head in a fridge and scattering the other body parts around the area. Fortunately, not something that happens all too frequently on a Saturday night. He got 25 years and the other two 15 (which is why they were released earlier, not because he fought the system while they didn't as you suggest). Bowden was also convicted of conspiracy to rob the victim (so it was done partly for personal gain) and for maliciously wounding two other persons. He was in fact the leader of a gang that specialised in robbing and cutting drunkards for money and, what is worse, for pleasure._


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## phildwyer (Jan 13, 2008)

Is it true that his supporters physically assault people who disagree with them?


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## Fullyplumped (Jan 13, 2008)

Apparently, The Times in 1982 carried a full report - 

_Machete murder trio given 'life'

Three men were jailed for life yesterday at the Central Criminal Court for a murder in which they began to cut up the victim's body while he was still alive.

One of them, John Bowden, was led struggling and shouting from the dock after Mr Justice Mars-Jones recommended that he should serve at least 25 years. He shouted: "You old bastard. I hope you die screaming of cancer."

Bowden, aged 24, a labourer, Michael Ward, aged 28, a gravedigger, and David Begley, aged 41, a porter, were found guilty of murdering Mr Donald Ryan, aged 49. The judge recommended that Ward and Begley should serve at least 15 years.

Mr Michael Mansfield, for Bowden, offered no mitigation. The judge told Mr Rock Tansey, counsel for Begley: "This is an appalling case. There never was a more horrific case of murder than this one and your client was fully implicated in it."
....

"I am prepared to believe that he was not the prime mover. The person who was behind it all was the codefendant, Bowden, who obviously enjoyed inflicting pain and even killing."
....

The judge directed that outstanding charges against Bowden alleging kidnapping, robbery and wounding be left on the file. Bowden, of Telford Place, Peckham, south London, was given a total of five years' jail for maliciously wounding Mr Robert Egan and Mr Patrick O'Connor in separate incidents, and for conspiring to rob Mr Ryan and conspiring to prevent his burial._​
Attica - do you think these things don't matter in the wider scheme?


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## phildwyer (Jan 13, 2008)

phildwyer said:
			
		

> Is it true that his supporters physically assault people who disagree with them?



Actually, let's not mess around here.  We all know that his supporters do just that.  The pertinant question is: has Mr. Bowden ever dissociated himself from the violence perpetrated by his supporters?  Attica?


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## The Black Hand (Jan 13, 2008)

Give it a rest you lot. I am not interested in arguing with you. Let the campaign to free Bowden carry on their struggle. You lot would be better engaged in a class struggle of your own.


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## Fullyplumped (Jan 13, 2008)

Attica said:
			
		

> Give it a rest you lot. I am not interested in arguing with you. Let the campaign to free Bowden carry on their struggle. You lot would be better engaged in a class struggle of your own.


Do you have a home and wife in Helston? I'm just askin'.


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## phildwyer (Jan 13, 2008)

Attica said:
			
		

> Let the campaign to free Bowden carry on their struggle.



How?  By beating up people who disagree with them?


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## Divisive Cotton (Jan 13, 2008)

Attica said:
			
		

> Give it a rest you lot. I am not interested in arguing with you.



Why did you start this thread on Urban75 then? You knew full well the reaction that it would provoke.


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## The Black Hand (Jan 13, 2008)

phildwyer said:
			
		

> How?  By beating up people who disagree with them?


If you insist.


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## The Black Hand (Jan 13, 2008)

Divisive Cotton said:
			
		

> Why did you start this thread on Urban75 then? You knew full well the reaction that it would provoke.


I was hoping the ignorant boo boys would give it a rest.


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## marty21 (Jan 13, 2008)

Fullyplumped said:
			
		

> Apparently, The Times in 1982 carried a full report -
> 
> _Machete murder trio given 'life'
> 
> ...


 jeez - well worth fighting to release then


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## Fullyplumped (Jan 13, 2008)

Attica said:
			
		

> I was hoping the ignorant boo boys would give it a rest.


Sexist!!!


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## phildwyer (Jan 13, 2008)

Attica said:
			
		

> If you insist.



Good, glad you've cleared that one up.  Now answer this one: how do you expect anyone to sympathize with him while his supporters proudly engage in such tactics?  And answer this one: has Mr. Bowden condemned the violence used by his supporters?  And this one: if he does not do so, does this reflect at all on his fitness for release?


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## marty21 (Jan 13, 2008)

Attica said:
			
		

> I was hoping the ignorant boo boys would give it a rest.


you don't like it that someone might disagree with you?


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## The Black Hand (Jan 13, 2008)

marty21 said:
			
		

> you don't like it that someone might disagree with you?



I welcome it most times. But not on this subject.


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## revol68 (Jan 13, 2008)

Attica said:
			
		

> I welcome it most times. But not on this subject.



Would that be because you and the John Bowden campaign's arguments are as water tight as a pair of fishnet knickers?


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## The Black Hand (Jan 13, 2008)

phildwyer said:
			
		

> Good, glad you've cleared that one up.  Now answer this one: how do you expect anyone to sympathize with him while his supporters proudly engage in such tactics?


 I do not know what you are on about, there are so many of his supporters who are good pacifists. Anyway. Don't bother arguing. I do not want to know what you think.

I haven't cleared anything up. I am trying to encourage the campaign. I didn't know that those with too little sense had so much time on their hands which they could be putting to better use ON A STRUGGLE OF THEIR OWN, rather than what this thread looks like it is going to turn into. Please do not spoil it. GO and do your own stuff.


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## The Black Hand (Jan 13, 2008)

revol68 said:
			
		

> Would that be because you and the John Bowden campaign's arguments are as water tight as a pair of fishnet knickers?



No. it is because it does not help his campaign at all arguing with the likes of you.


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## The Black Hand (Jan 13, 2008)

Fullyplumped said:
			
		

> Sexist!!!



But they are so obviously young men and so I called them boys. Nothing sexist there.


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## marty21 (Jan 13, 2008)

Attica said:
			
		

> No. it is because it does not help his campaign at all arguing with the likes of you.


surely part of this campaign is to justify his release, and it seems many think he shouldn't be released, so arguing with people is part of the campaign, surely


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## revol68 (Jan 13, 2008)

Attica said:
			
		

> No. it is because it does not help his campaign at all arguing with the likes of you.




But surely the campaign seeks to popularise itself, to make it's case to the rest of the working class, are youse going to stick your head in the sand when anyone with some sanity questions exactly why they should support the release of someone in for a brutal sadistic murder?


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## The Black Hand (Jan 13, 2008)

marty21 said:
			
		

> surely part of this campaign is to justify his release, and it seems many think he shouldn't be released, so arguing with people is part of the campaign, surely


No. Not here.


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## Fullyplumped (Jan 13, 2008)

Attica, thank you for your personal message, which in line with board rules I will not quote. This should be a public debate, however.

I will say that while there are some people who are wrongly convicted and imprisoned, a person who at the age of 25 is convicted of the most cruel murder - butchering the victim while still alive - and who has been given a life sentence with a minimum term of 25 years, is not entitled to special consideration just because he has discovered anarchism, or Islam, or lepidoptery, or any other faith or ideology. 

It says ill of the anarchists that they seem to have no regard for the crime committed. This particular beast of a man is only coming now to the end of the punishment phase of his life sentence. A well deserved punishment in my view. The next question is whether he is safe to be let out on licence on the streets which I use, or whether he should continue to serve his life sentence in captivity.

Personally speaking, his apparent lack of remorse, and the fact that he has allowed himself to be portrayed as a victim and a martyr by the coterie which has associated themselves with his cause, gives me no confidence that he is a safe person to walk the streets of my home town. He is no victim. His is a man found guilty of a horrible, wicked crime and he was rightly sentenced to life imprisonment.

That doesn't mean he isn't being used, though. If you anarchists really care about him - back off!


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## marty21 (Jan 13, 2008)

Attica said:
			
		

> No. Not here.


so why post it? and do you argue against those who hold opposing opinions off these boards


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## The Black Hand (Jan 14, 2008)

marty21 said:
			
		

> so why post it? and do you argue against those who hold opposing opinions off these boards



I answered that on the previous page to another poster.


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## Frampton (Jan 14, 2008)

At what point do we stop judging people? Most of us have made big mistakes in our lives. Few of us remain fixated in that mind-set. People change. I've known soldiers who became bitterly ashamed of their earlier activities. At what point do we accept the opinions of fellow comrades (eco-terrorists?) who are actually in contact with this guy?


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## untethered (Jan 14, 2008)

Attica said:
			
		

> I was hoping the ignorant boo boys would give it a rest.



Your problem with the critics of Mr Bowden is not that they are ignorant but that they are knowledgeable - despite the best efforts of you and your colleagues to cover up the truth about why Mr Bowden is in jail in the first place.


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## untethered (Jan 14, 2008)

Frampton said:
			
		

> At what point do we stop judging people? Most of us have made big mistakes in our lives. Few of us remain fixated in that mind-set. People change. I've known soldiers who became bitterly ashamed of their earlier activities. At what point do we accept the opinions of fellow comrades (eco-terrorists?) who are actually in contact with this guy?



At the point when they actually acknowledge the magnitude of his crime, rather than seek to minimise it, perhaps?


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## phildwyer (Jan 14, 2008)

Attica said:
			
		

> I do not know what you are on about, there are so many of his supporters who are good pacifists. Anyway. Don't bother arguing. I do not want to know what you think.



But I want to tell you.  I think Bowden should be released.  I believe in redemption, and I think he is redeemed.  The only thing that stops me supporting your campaign is the fact that advocates of Bowden's release beat up people who disagree with them.  And the fact that you often resort to veiled threats yourself.  I *despise* people who make threats of physical violence.  Ask Red Jezza.


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## agricola (Jan 14, 2008)

Oh great, another attention-seeking Bowden thread.

One of course notes that this "damning" report is not provided, and we only have Bowden's choice of quotes from it, if indeed they are accurate.  Given the past history of Bowden's own writing, and those of his supporters (_stupid, drunken murder_ being the best example), this is not a surprise.


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## Frampton (Jan 14, 2008)

The soldiers I refer to also committed crimes of enormous magnitude. They too lived with the consequences of their acts a long way into the future. Again. People change.


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## The Black Hand (Jan 14, 2008)

phildwyer said:
			
		

> But I want to tell you.  I think Bowden should be released.  I believe in redemption, and I think he is redeemed.  The only thing that stops me supporting your campaign is the fact that advocates of Bowden's release beat up people who disagree with them.  And the fact that you often resort to veiled threats yourself.  I *despise* people who make threats of physical violence.  Ask Red Jezza.



Then that is not much to put you off supporting real people is it? It is not his fault, you are further victimising Bowden. You are banging on like 'they' are the Camorra FFS. As for my posts, you do need to learn the difference between literary flourish in virtual reality and real life. In real life the many supporters of John Bowden have been working for years and doing nothing violent. You are elevating a one off incident (with other factors involved) and creating something that it really wasn't.


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## The Black Hand (Jan 14, 2008)

agricola said:
			
		

> Oh great, another attention-seeking Bowden thread.
> 
> One of course notes that this "damning" report is not provided, and we only have Bowden's choice of quotes from it, if indeed they are accurate.  Given the past history of Bowden's own writing, and those of his supporters (_stupid, drunken murder_ being the best example), this is not a surprise.



Go home* copper*. We do not need your type round here.


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## The Black Hand (Jan 14, 2008)

untethered said:
			
		

> Your problem with the critics of Mr Bowden is not that they are ignorant but that they are knowledgeable - despite the best efforts of you and your colleagues to cover up the truth about why Mr Bowden is in jail in the first place.



i have made no efforts to cover up anything. I do despise keyboard warriors who are not part of the class struggle, who who think they have something to say based upon youthful zeal rather than the harsh realities of class struggle. Infact, most of you do not know what class struggle is, never mind take part in it


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## butchersapron (Jan 14, 2008)

You're not helping in the slightest attica. Your silence would do more. Put your ego second for once.


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## The Black Hand (Jan 14, 2008)

butchersapron said:
			
		

> You're not helping in the slightest attica. Your silence would do more. Put your ego second for once.



Situation is completely fucked anyway pal, the young worms have poisoned the chalice.


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## marty21 (Jan 14, 2008)

Attica said:
			
		

> Situation is completely fucked anyway pal, the young worms have poisoned the chalice.


this 42 year old doesn't agree with you either


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## The Black Hand (Jan 14, 2008)

marty21 said:
			
		

> this 42 year old doesn't agree with you either


Do you have a point. We already knew that.


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## untethered (Jan 14, 2008)

Attica said:
			
		

> i have made no efforts to cover up anything. I do despise keyboard warriors who are not part of the class struggle, who who think they have something to say based upon youthful zeal rather than the harsh realities of class struggle. Infact, most of you do not know what class struggle is, never mind take part in it



You're right. I certainly don't take part in it, nor would I want to.


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## marty21 (Jan 14, 2008)

Attica said:
			
		

> Do you have a point. We already knew that.


 you seem to think that the only people who disagree with you are those with "youthful zeal" or are "young worms" 

and i don't really understand, why a campaign to release a violent criminal is part of a class struggle,  enlighten me


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## cantsin (Jan 14, 2008)

the blokes done 25 yrs , is there any evidence that he doesnt feel remorse ? Quotes , links etc ? Would you lot prefer the death penalty ? Or how long should he stay inside ? Is it ok for Social worker pigs  to fit him up with phoney terrorist accusations cos of his past crimes , for which he's served 25 yrs  ?


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## jæd (Jan 14, 2008)

Attica said:
			
		

> It is not his fault, you are further victimising Bowden.



I wonder how one victimises a convicted tortutuer and murderer...?   

Of all the sick threads I've seen on U75, this is one of the sickest...


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## revol68 (Jan 14, 2008)

cantsin said:
			
		

> the blokes done 25 yrs , is there any evidence that he doesnt feel remorse ? Quotes , links etc ? Would you lot prefer the death penalty ? Or how long should he stay inside ? Is it ok for Social worker pigs  to fit him up with phoney terrorist accusations cos of his past crimes , for which he's served 25 yrs  ?



Regardless of his fitness for release the issue is why the fuck anarchists wwould be supporting prisoners in for such crimes in the first place. John Bowden's political status is entirely circular, it would have been best for both the ABC and Bowden if they'd never got involved with each other in the first place.


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## cantsin (Jan 14, 2008)

revol68 said:
			
		

> Regardless of his fitness for release the issue is why the fuck anarchists wwould be supporting prisoners in for such crimes in the first place. John Bowden's political status is entirely circular, it would have been best for both the ABC and Bowden if they'd never got involved with each other in the first place.



thanks , but doesnt answer a single one of my questions


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## revol68 (Jan 14, 2008)

cantsin said:
			
		

> thanks , but doesnt answer a single one of my questions



it might just hint at the reason why people don't think he should be getting political support from anarchists, no?

If Ian Huntley or Ian Brady discovered anarchism and became 'prison resisters' should anarchists support them? I'm sorry but some people deserve jail and worse, i've fuck all concern for the 'struggles' of some cunt in for a brutal sadistic murder or rape, as far as I'm concerned they made their bed and they can painfully rot in it for all I care.


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## JHE (Jan 14, 2008)

cantsin said:
			
		

> is there any evidence that he doesnt feel remorse ?



Dunno.  Is there any evidence that he DOES feel remorse?

It would be interesting to know more about his (current) view of his horrendous crime.  The only impressions I have had of his attitudes have been that he feels hard done by.

His supporters like to play down what he did.  (They prefer not to mention it.)  Maybe he doesn't play it down.  What can you tell us about him, Cantsin?



BTW, I'm not sure that someone who did what he did should EVER get out of prison, but if he is ever to be released on licence it should only be after the parole board is utterly convinced that he is a very fundamentally changed person who would NEVER go back to torturing people to death.


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## purves grundy (Jan 15, 2008)

That bloke off Bullseye?


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## cantsin (Jan 15, 2008)

JHE said:
			
		

> Dunno.  Is there any evidence that he DOES feel remorse?
> 
> It would be interesting to know more about his (current) view of his horrendous crime.  The only impressions I have had of his attitudes have been that he feels hard done by.
> 
> ...




SO ?  death penalty /  whole life in prison ? for him / all murderers / or just specific murderers ? seems you're basically adopting a position to the right of the Tory party on this


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## revol68 (Jan 15, 2008)

cantsin said:
			
		

> SO ?  death penalty /  whole life in prison ? for him / all murderers / or just specific murderers ? seems you're basically adopting a position to the right of the Tory party on this



It wasn't your average moment of madness murder, he chopped someone up wit an electric carving knife whilst they were still alive and then kept the head in the fridge for two weeks.

People who commit those type of crimes fall off my 'giving two shits' radar.


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## xenon (Jan 15, 2008)

Yeah. Great choice exemplifying the class struggle. 

As some might say. With allies like this, etc...


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## xenon (Jan 15, 2008)

As I said on a thread last year. The rather taylored reporting of this case by Indy media makes them and ABC look like a bunch of proppergandising slippery, spinning wankers.

Fuck all credibility in political terms. by all means, fight for Bowden's release if you must, on simple legal grounds. but weaving this into some wider political context is nyeve, utterly stupid and offensive.


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## Yossarian (Jan 15, 2008)

xenon said:
			
		

> As I said on a thread last year. The rather taylored reporting of this case by Indy media makes them and ABC look like a bunch of proppergandising slippery, spinning wankers.


 
Yeah, stuff like this just seems a bit weaselly:

_More than a quarter of a Century ago, John Bowden, then a young man, who had already spent most of his life in the “care” of the State, committed what might be characterised as a ‘stupid, drunken, murder’. There was nothing even slightly political about this act, but it was neither premeditated nor committed for personal gain. It was, unfortunately, something which happens all too frequently when men quarrel while drunk. Particularly when they have been brutalised by, marginalised from, and pushed to the very edges of society._

I reckon a lot of Bowden supporters won't be quite so enthusiastic about the cause if turns out he needs a sofa to crash on for a few weeks after he gets out...


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## revol68 (Jan 15, 2008)

Yossarian said:
			
		

> Yeah, stuff like this just seems a bit weaselly:
> 
> _More than a quarter of a Century ago, John Bowden, then a young man, who had already spent most of his life in the “care” of the State, committed what might be characterised as a ‘stupid, drunken, murder’. There was nothing even slightly political about this act, but it was neither premeditated nor committed for personal gain. It was, unfortunately, something which happens all too frequently when men quarrel while drunk. Particularly when they have been brutalised by, marginalised from, and pushed to the very edges of society._
> 
> I reckon a lot of Bowden supporters won't be quite so enthusiastic about the cause if turns out he needs a sofa to crash on for a few weeks after he gets out...



If he said he was just going to run a bath...


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## phildwyer (Jan 15, 2008)

For all my revulsion from the methods employed by some of his supporters, I do think he should be released.  It is sad to see people who consider themselves on the Left spouting the law'n'order, 'criminals are evil' cliches of the state.


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## revol68 (Jan 15, 2008)

> It is sad to see people who consider themselves on the Left spouting the law'n'order, 'criminals are evil' cliches of the state.



I don't think the attitude that people guilty of such sadistic acts as John Bowden carried out are scum is reserved for the 'state' or the 'right wing'.
I'm sorry if my communism doesn't extend to the welfare concerns of brutal murderers, then again I don't mistake communism for christianity.


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## Yossarian (Jan 15, 2008)

Bowden's done his time so I guess there's no reason he shouldn't be let out but given his apparent tendency to blame everybody except John Bowden for the murder I'm not surprised the parole board's dithering.


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## phildwyer (Jan 15, 2008)

revol68 said:
			
		

> I don't think the attitude that people guilty of such sadistic acts as John Bowden carried out are scum is reserved for the 'state' or the 'right wing'.



You don't think people change?


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## revol68 (Jan 15, 2008)

phildwyer said:
			
		

> You don't think people change?



Yes, do I think they should always be given such a chance, a chance they so brutally denied to their victims, no I don't.


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## phildwyer (Jan 15, 2008)

revol68 said:
			
		

> Yes, do I think they should always be given such a chance, a chance they so brutally denied to their victims, no I don't.



So you favour capital punishment for murder.  What about for rape?  Or assault?  Seems to me that retributive justice has no limits.


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## Boris Sprinkler (Jan 15, 2008)

But the point is there has been no evidence he has changed and expresses remorse for his crime. Hence the payrole board have denied his chance to leave jail. It's not a class issue at all. Any cunt can read a few books in prison and becoem a revolutionary. Not like there's much else to do is there. His supporters overlooking the fact he committed a "stupid, drunken, murder". 
Well we've all been there after all. A  night on the sauce, drawing on someones face with marker pen and then chopping them up and putting them in the fridge.


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## likesfish (Jan 15, 2008)

he's in the hands of the state and being repressed because he was found guilty of a particular nasty crime.
options 
A) do your time show some remorse and try to better yourself
b) fight the power and rage at the injustice

 which one do you think is going to get you free?


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## Frampton (Jan 15, 2008)

The notion that people are incapable of change is a frightening one.

Rather than joining in with the values of a Jerry Springer audience I'm looking at the assessment qualities of those who have been in contact with J.B. 

On the one hand we have a social worker whose ethics are taken from yesterday's Daily Mail. While on the other we have a group of comrades who have been working with J.B. for years. In the middle of all this we have a vicious prison service, an uncaring state, some fat laywers and a single prisoner whose world view must be heavily laced by the dynamics of solitary confinement.

There are soldiers walking the streets of England now who have inflicted similar atrocities on other human beings. What gives me hope for human kind is that change is possible.


----------



## Yossarian (Jan 15, 2008)

Frampton said:
			
		

> The notion that people are incapable of change is a frightening one.


 
Has anybody on this thread actually expressed this frightening notion in regards to ol' JB?


----------



## likesfish (Jan 15, 2008)

There are soldiers walking the streets of England now who have inflicted similar atrocities on other human beings. What gives me hope for human kind is that change is possible.[/QUOTE]

 standard operating procedure get the enemy drunk then dismember them and keep there head as a trophy  

NO I don't think so Bowden appears to be poor me the screws have got it in for me its so unfair.
 consequences of your actions mate be a very nasty  murderer expect to have to climb a very steep hill if you expect society to want to let you out


----------



## newbie (Jan 15, 2008)

likesfish said:
			
		

> Bowden appears to be poor me the screws have got it in for me its so unfair.



is that really the case, or is it simply that when the social worker report led to him being transferred from open to cat A prison he and his supporters made rather a lot of fuss.

Had anyone reading this thread ever heard of the guy prior to the social worker report?   Had a different sw written a different report, with no mention of ABC or terrorism, he might be out on licence by now, living quietly down the street without his name and history plastered all over the internet, like plenty of others who've committed horrible crimes including his two co-accused.  

The 'poor me' routine appears to be about the sw report.  He's done his time for the crime... time in prison not in a psych hospital, which is where he's be if he hadn't recognised what he'd done and why he shouldn't have done it.


----------



## revol68 (Jan 15, 2008)

newbie said:
			
		

> is that really the case, or is it simply that when the social worker report led to him being transferred from open to cat A prison he and his supporters made rather a lot of fuss.
> 
> Had anyone reading this thread ever heard of the guy prior to the social worker report?   Had a different sw written a different report, with no mention of ABC or terrorism, he might be out on licence by now, living quietly down the street without his name and history plastered all over the internet, like plenty of others who've committed horrible crimes including his two co-accused.
> 
> The 'poor me' routine appears to be about the sw report.  He's done his time for the crime... time in prison not in a psych hospital, which is where he's be if he hadn't recognised what he'd done and why he shouldn't have done it.



nah the poor me thing came long before when he was pimping his Prison Resistance pamphlets, he seems to have found in anarchism a means of coping with his crime, coming to understand it as an almost inevitable product of his years of brutalisation by the state and anti irish racism (i kid you fucking not!).

You are of course correct if John Bowden and the ABC had never got entangled with each other he'd probably be out on license trying to get on with his life, except instead of accepting responsibility for what he's done he seems to feel he was hard done by in his sentencing and thinks he should be given support for resisting his imprisonment, which might be understandable for a political prisoner or even a petty crook in for stealing or something but catches abit in your throat when some fucker whose been sent down for chopping a man up alive with an electric carving knife is giving it the big one about 'the systems brutality' or how being locked up again after his first esacpe attempt felt like 'dying'. Really has this cunt got no self awareness?


----------



## newbie (Jan 15, 2008)

you seem to be suggesting that politicisation has had a detrimental effect on him, that his way through life should have been to knuckle down, internalise all responsibility and accept what the system dealt him.  

Is that a lesson for the rest of us or only for those who have some dreadful crime to atone?


----------



## revol68 (Jan 15, 2008)

newbie said:
			
		

> you seem to be suggesting that politicisation has had a detrimental effect on him, that his way through life should have been to knuckle down, internalise all responsibility and accept what the system dealt him.
> 
> Is that a lesson for the rest of us or only for those who have some dreadful crime to atone?



yes I would suggest he should thank himself lucky he's allowed to breath instead of whinging about the injustice of being locked up for carving a man alive in a bath of scalding hot water.

I suppouse if Ian Brady started kicking up a fuss about being locked up we;d all have to bust out the red n black banners and support his heroic struggle against the 'brutalising system'? Would we fuck!


----------



## likesfish (Jan 15, 2008)

not exactly sure what part the "system" had in making him murder someone


----------



## revol68 (Jan 15, 2008)

likesfish said:
			
		

> not exactly sure what part the "system" had in making him murder someone



it brutalised him!!!111!!1


----------



## untethered (Jan 15, 2008)

revol68 said:
			
		

> it brutalised him!!!111!!1



Wasn't he brought up in care? Everyone knows that people like that go on to dismember helpless victims while they're still alive.


----------



## revol68 (Jan 15, 2008)

untethered said:
			
		

> Wasn't he brought up in care? Everyone knows that people like that go on to dismember helpless victims while they're still alive.



yeah but he also suffered anti irish racism apparently.


----------



## GarfieldLeChat (Jan 15, 2008)

Attica said:
			
		

> I was hoping the ignorant boo boys would give it a rest.


what's ignorant about not feeling particular sympathy for a man who ocsitrated and enacted a brutal and mindless murder for their own personal gain?

You're on a hiding to no where on this one. 

The man is in jail not for his poltical belifes but because he killed someone and kept their head in the fucking fridge ... that's not healthy and however intelligent a person he might be and whatever his poltical persuasions the dude kept a mans head in the fucking fridge... can you at least see the perspective which might make this difficult for people to feel solidarity for him??


----------



## untethered (Jan 15, 2008)

revol68 said:
			
		

> yeah but he also suffered anti irish racism apparently.



We are all responsible.


----------



## revol68 (Jan 15, 2008)

untethered said:
			
		

> We are all responsible.



not me i'm irish and so I can't be held responsible for anything, if a head turns up in my fridge it's clearly ended up there as the inevitable outcome of 800 years of subjugation and a couple of Paddy Irish man jokes.


----------



## agricola (Jan 15, 2008)

newbie said:
			
		

> is that really the case, or is it simply that when the social worker report led to him being transferred from open to cat A prison he and his supporters made rather a lot of fuss.
> 
> Had anyone reading this thread ever heard of the guy prior to the social worker report?   Had a different sw written a different report, with no mention of ABC or terrorism, he might be out on licence by now, living quietly down the street without his name and history plastered all over the internet, like plenty of others who've committed horrible crimes including his two co-accused.
> 
> The 'poor me' routine appears to be about the sw report.  He's done his time for the crime... time in prison not in a psych hospital, which is where he's be if he hadn't recognised what he'd done and why he shouldn't have done it.



Bowden has been publishing articles for a long while, though admittedly its only this fuss, and the counter-fuss where several people actually found out what he did and have highlighted it and the minimization of the crime from ABC and the rest of his supporters (if not Bowden himself), that have brought him to any kind of prominence. 

Also, as has been stated on most of the other Bowden threads, its questionable as to whether he has actually done his time - whilst in prison he has escaped (for eighteen months) and taken a hostage, in addition to his life sentence and other sentences handed down at the time of his sentencing for murder.


----------



## cantsin (Jan 15, 2008)

untethered said:
			
		

> Wasn't he brought up in care? Everyone knows that people like that go on to dismember helpless victims while they're still alive.



I bet you know a lot about being bought up in care , +  what it does to "people like that "  , so you carry on with your glib little keyboard routine , the hang em flog em brigade probably think your a top boy , well done all round .


----------



## newbie (Jan 15, 2008)

likesfish said:
			
		

> not exactly sure what part the "system" had in making him murder someone



That's not the suggestion- he/his supporters are complaining about the way 'the system' is treating him now, towards the end of his sentence.  

In 1982 the court sentenced him to 25 years for his crime, which he's done. As with any other prisoner, once he's served his sentence he's entitled to fair and reasonable treatment leading to (conditional) release.  Isn't he?

Sfaics his supporters complaint is that he has been unreasonably treated very recently *because* he has become politicised. 

There seems to be an attitude here that he should not have done so, that because his initial crime was so horrible he can have no political case to make, and that the way he has been treated very recently doesn't matter because of what he did 25 years ago. 

tbh I find that slightly odd, and whilst, like revol, I think he's fortunate that the state didn't just kill him off as it would have done in texas, I do think he's as entitled as anyone else to reasonable treatment as he completes the sentence the court imposed.


----------



## untethered (Jan 15, 2008)

revol68 said:
			
		

> not me i'm irish and so I can't be held responsible for anything, if a head turns up in my fridge it's clearly ended up there as the inevitable outcome of 800 years of subjugation and a couple of Paddy Irish man jokes.



Oh, well it was me then.

I'm English. I should take Mr Bowden's place in jail to atone for the crimes of the English against the Irish over many generations.

An apology would probably be in order, too.


----------



## untethered (Jan 15, 2008)

cantsin said:
			
		

> I bet you know a lot about being bought up in care , +  what it does to "people like that "  , so you carry on with your glib little keyboard routine , the hang em flog em brigade probably think your a top boy , well done all round .



What I do know about people being brought up in care is that most don't go on to brutally murder and dismember defenceless people and then claim that it was part of the reason why they did it.


----------



## revol68 (Jan 15, 2008)

newbie said:
			
		

> That's not the suggestion- he/his supporters are complaining about the way 'the system' is treating him now, towards the end of his sentence.
> 
> In 1982 the court sentenced him to 25 years for his crime, which he's done. As with any other prisoner, once he's served his sentence he's entitled to fair and reasonable treatment leading to (conditional) release.  Isn't he?
> 
> ...



well actually if you read his pamphlets you'd know he does blame the 'brutalisation' of the system for his crime. 

And he hasn't served his full time as he had a wee bit of an escape with a hostage.


----------



## likesfish (Jan 15, 2008)

abc put it about as a stupid drunken murder and got proved wrong when people went digging for the facts 
 sort of undermines the whole case really


----------



## cantsin (Jan 15, 2008)

untethered said:
			
		

> What I do know about people being brought up in care is that most don't go on to brutally murder and dismember defenceless people and then claim that it was part of the reason why they did it.



 so you have never heard of clinical psychologists pointing  again and again to causal links between the abuse / violence / poverty / oppression / deprivation  often suffered as children by those who go on to commit similar crimes as adults ? that one is totally new to you is it ?


----------



## newbie (Jan 15, 2008)

revol68 said:
			
		

> And he hasn't served his full time as he had a wee bit of an escape with a hostage.



why would the parole board be commissioning reports about his suitability for release if he hadn't served the required amount of his sentence(s)?


----------



## newbie (Jan 15, 2008)

likesfish said:
			
		

> abc put it about as a stupid drunken murder and got proved wrong when people went digging for the facts
> sort of undermines the whole case really


unquestionably


----------



## untethered (Jan 15, 2008)

revol68 said:
			
		

> And he hasn't served his full time as he had a wee bit of an escape with a hostage.



Wasn't the hostage an assistant governor? Very naughty.


----------



## untethered (Jan 15, 2008)

cantsin said:
			
		

> so you have never heard of clinical psychologists pointing  again and again to causal links between the abuse / violence / poverty / oppression / deprivation  often suffered as children by those who go on to commit similar crimes as adults ? that one is totally new to you is it ?



There's a correlation, not causation. If there was causation, not only would everyone from a deprived background be as dangerous as Mr Bowden, but he himself would presumably be absolutely beyond redemption.


----------



## GarfieldLeChat (Jan 15, 2008)

cantsin said:
			
		

> I bet you know a lot about being bought up in care , +  what it does to "people like that "  , so you carry on with your glib little keyboard routine , the hang em flog em brigade probably think your a top boy , well done all round .


I'd advise truing on the sarcasm detector if i where you...


----------



## Frampton (Jan 15, 2008)

I do not want to make light of any atrocity. It doesn't matter to me if they are caused by thugs in or out of uniforms. They are all an insult to the human condition.

I guess my sympathies with J.B. come from my own time from being imprisoned. It was only there that I came to understand the nature of power and the wholely destructive effect it has on people. Therein I learned my own commitment to Anarchism.

Let us also not forget that a man undergoing extended bouts of solitary (in itself an atrocity) has a different mind-set to those of us living in the everyday.


----------



## chico enrico (Jan 15, 2008)

Fullyplumped said:
			
		

> Attica, thank you for your personal message, which in line with board rules I will not quote. This should be a public debate, however.
> 
> I will say that while there are some people who are wrongly convicted and imprisoned, a person who at the age of 25 is convicted of the most cruel murder - butchering the victim while still alive - and who has been given a life sentence with a minimum term of 25 years, is not entitled to special consideration just because he has discovered anarchism, or Islam, or lepidoptery, or any other faith or ideology.
> 
> ...



i also remember when some folk started up a 'free harry roberts' campaign and only stopped after repeated requests from roberts himself to stop their nonsense as all it did was cause him grief and jeopardise any chances of parole he could ever hope for. 

irrespective of what one thinks of the bowden case to me it just illustrates what a bunch of odd-balls most anarcho-types are. when there are so many other gross miscarriages of justice and folk languishing in jails for stuff they don't deserve or have been fitted up, which all the ABC lot don't seem very vocal about, choosing to champion someone just cos they've read a few books on bakunin while banged up seems a load of self-serving wank to me.


----------



## untethered (Jan 15, 2008)

chico enrico said:
			
		

> irrespective of what one thinks of the bowden case to me it just illustrates what a bunch of odd-balls most anarcho-types are. when there are so many other gross miscarriages of justice and folk languishing in jails for stuff they don't deserve or have been fitted up, which all the ABC lot don't seem very vocal about, choosing to champion someone just cos they've read a few books on bakunin while banged up seems a load of self-serving wank to me.



I like the way that on the one hand they encourage the violent overthrow of the state and "resistance" within prisons, then get all offended when they're accused of being a terrorist group and when their poster boy doesn't get a fair deal from the parole board.


----------



## agricola (Jan 15, 2008)

newbie said:
			
		

> That's not the suggestion- he/his supporters are complaining about the way 'the system' is treating him now, towards the end of his sentence.
> 
> In 1982 the court sentenced him to 25 years for his crime, which he's done. As with any other prisoner, once he's served his sentence he's entitled to fair and reasonable treatment leading to (conditional) release.  Isn't he?
> 
> ...



newbie,

Firstly, as has been demonstrated by the links on this and the other threads, he did _not_ get 25 years - he got life with a minimum recommendation of twenty five years, plus five years for conspiracy to rob the victim and two woundings on other individuals.  He was also sentenced for a hostage taking, and for an escape of 18 months.  Even if he is released, it will be under the (comparatively) draconian conditions of a life licence.

Secondly, its not as if he has become recently politicized - articles on Indymedia claim he has been since 1983, and he has been putting a political spin on his offending in most of, if not all, of his articles.  Given that, and when ABC and others describe him as a "long term prison resister" its decidedly questionable that anyone who resists a system in his circumstances can be said to be ready for permanent release - I fail to see how he has genuinely either accepted the enormity of what he has done or that he is where he deserves to be.


----------



## chico enrico (Jan 15, 2008)

Attica said:
			
		

> you do need to learn the difference between literary flourish in virtual reality and real life. In real life the many supporters of John Bowden have been working for years and doing nothing violent. You are elevating a one off incident (with other factors involved) and creating something that it really wasn't.



actually , to be fair, i would imagine the 'free john bowden campaign' sees a lot more activity on the web than anywhere else as that's where most anarchists spend their time fannying about these days. I am pretty confident that if any of them were to set up a stall outside their local shopping centre with a petition for fo the release of a chap who chopped a tramp's head off and kept it in his fridge it wouldn't receive many signatures. 

or perhaps i underestimate the 'class consciousness' of the british proletariat?


----------



## cantsin (Jan 15, 2008)

untethered said:
			
		

> I like the way that on the one hand they encourage the violent overthrow of the state and "resistance" within prisons, then get all offended when they're accused of being a terrorist group and when their poster boy doesn't get a fair deal from the parole board.




so....advocating " violent overthrow of the state " is the same as being "a terrorist group"  to you ?


----------



## chico enrico (Jan 15, 2008)

Frampton said:
			
		

> The notion that people are incapable of change is a frightening one.
> 
> Rather than joining in with the values of a Jerry Springer audience I'm looking at the assessment qualities of those who have been in contact with J.B.
> 
> ...



hmmm...will this be the same ABC 'comrades' who are also in favour of releasing the Unabomber perchance?


----------



## chico enrico (Jan 15, 2008)

here, mate, pass us the milk?


----------



## untethered (Jan 15, 2008)

cantsin said:
			
		

> so....advocating " violent overthrow of the state " is the same as being "a terrorist group"  to you ?



Not necessarily, but it's easy to see how one might be mistaken for the other.

More's the point, if I were advocating the violent overthrow of the state, I wouldn't much care what the state thought of me and I probably wouldn't attempt to use the state's own structures to get redress.

It's just little boys playing their "edgy" games really, isn't it?


----------



## likesfish (Jan 15, 2008)

if you go on about how the revolution will be a time of liberation and unavoidable violence  
 don't be surprised if the states security apparatus takes an interest.
 even if its only as an old sparticus friend of mine claimed to rip your arguement apart in the pub afterwards and suggest maybe some further reading would help. 

its not the fact the spooks were monitoring it was he had more knowledge of marxism  Come the revolution you be up at against the wall
 you really think the revolutionary goverment won't want secret policemen


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 15, 2008)

revol68 said:
			
		

> And he hasn't served his full time as he had a wee bit of an escape with a hostage.



You are the worst sort of nitpicking wanker. FFS I'd like to see you do one month inside, never mind 20 years. These places ARE not good for anybodies mental health, and any 'offences' whilst inside I think the system is partially to blame for. 

Yes, thats right, you do have to take an anti law/police/prison stance. That's what anarchism means. Now why don't you fuk off back to that irrelevant ultra left website and bore everybody there?


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 15, 2008)

agricola said:
			
		

> wank wank wank wank wank wank drone  etc
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 15, 2008)

likesfish said:
			
		

> abc put it about as a stupid drunken murder and got proved wrong when people went digging for the facts
> sort of undermines the whole case really



Not really. It was shorthand. It could have been prison gossip, i really do not know the origin of that claim, but I do despise the holier than thou shite about those who do nothing but whinge.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 15, 2008)

phildwyer said:
			
		

> So you favour capital punishment for murder.  What about for rape?  Or assault?  Seems to me that retributive justice has no limits.



Revol sounds like a Stalinist.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 15, 2008)

revol68 said:
			
		

> Yes, do I think they should always be given such a chance, a chance they so brutally denied to their victims, no I don't.



you haven't read your Hegel have you Revol?


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 15, 2008)

Frampton said:
			
		

> The notion that people are incapable of change is a frightening one.
> 
> Rather than joining in with the values of a Jerry Springer audience I'm looking at the assessment qualities of those who have been in contact with J.B.
> 
> ...



Great post.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 15, 2008)

likesfish said:
			
		

> NO I don't think so Bowden appears to be poor me the screws have got it in for me its so unfair.
> consequences of your actions mate be a very nasty  murderer expect to have to climb a very steep hill if you expect society to want to let you out




You do not seem to recognise that Bowden has been a class war prisoner since the early 1990s, or even earlier. I can't remember which issue of CLass War first had something in by/about him. But his track record of working class politics is good. Far better than say Revol.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 15, 2008)

revol68 said:
			
		

> Really has this cunt got no self awareness?



What a stupid pathetic comment, rather like you revol. You are so out of your depth here it is frightening (oh the joys of the net).

You in particular deserve an introduction to class justice.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 15, 2008)

Frampton said:
			
		

> I do not want to make light of any atrocity. It doesn't matter to me if they are caused by thugs in or out of uniforms. They are all an insult to the human condition.
> 
> I guess my sympathies with J.B. come from my own time from being imprisoned. It was only there that I came to understand the nature of power and the wholely destructive effect it has on people. Therein I learned my own commitment to Anarchism.
> 
> Let us also not forget that a man undergoing extended bouts of solitary (in itself an atrocity) has a different mind-set to those of us living in the everyday.


Good man.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 15, 2008)

agricola said:
			
		

> newbie,
> 
> Firstly, as has been demonstrated by the links on this and the other threads, he did _not_ get 25 years - he got life with a minimum recommendation of twenty five years, plus five years for conspiracy to rob the victim and two woundings on other individuals.  He was also sentenced for a hostage taking, and for an escape of 18 months.  Even if he is released, it will be under the (comparatively) draconian conditions of a life licence.
> 
> Secondly, its not as if he has become recently politicized - articles on Indymedia claim he has been since 1983, and he has been putting a political spin on his offending in most of, if not all, of his articles.  Given that, and when ABC and others describe him as a "long term prison resister" its decidedly questionable that anyone who resists a system in his circumstances can be said to be ready for permanent release - I fail to see how he has genuinely either accepted the enormity of what he has done or that he is where he deserves to be.



Copper/filth whatever. 

Have you never ever never ever ever thought that NO anarchist would ever be released if that were the case -  because we despise all parts of capitalist justice which has NO legitimacy in our eyes. We do not get a trial of our peers either, cos a lot of us are not on electoral rolls, so by definition the trial is loaded against us from the start... such is life. I'm not complaining btw, just pointing it out.

So we lie, cos you made us.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 15, 2008)

chico enrico said:
			
		

> actually , to be fair, i would imagine the 'free john bowden campaign' sees a lot more activity on the web than anywhere else as that's where most anarchists spend their time fannying about these days. I am pretty confident that if any of them were to set up a stall outside their local shopping centre with a petition for fo the release of a chap who chopped a tramp's head off and kept it in his fridge it wouldn't receive many signatures.
> 
> or perhaps i underestimate the 'class consciousness' of the british proletariat?



That's a great STraw man you've built to burn.


----------



## marty21 (Jan 15, 2008)

Attica said:
			
		

> So we lie, cos you made us.


  so why should we believe you about bowden?


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 15, 2008)

marty21 said:
			
		

> so why should we believe you about bowden?


Cos I am not in jail. Did it not occur to you I was talking about getting out of jail? Go read it again.


----------



## likesfish (Jan 16, 2008)

so he hates the state and believes in actively resisting the state and has links to people who believe in violent overthrow of said state.

 Yet expects the state to give him liberty?
  Hmmm tricky one.


----------



## cantsin (Jan 16, 2008)

likesfish said:
			
		

> so he hates the state and believes in actively resisting the state and has links to people who believe in violent overthrow of said state.
> 
> Yet expects the state to give him liberty?
> Hmmm tricky one.



what are you on about ? anyone who opposes the state / resists the state / believes in the need for it to be overthrown ( violence would be inevitable ) forfeits the right to be released from  prison if they are in one ?????

'Hmm tricky one' - what a plum .


----------



## likesfish (Jan 16, 2008)

wells yes if they are a convicted murderer.
 kind of difficult to argue I want liberty so I can take part in the violent overthrow of the state. If the state has locked you up for violence in the first place 

its not really going to look good at a parole hearing is it/?
 you can't have it both way.
 Argue anarchism is a threat to the powers that be.
 then be surprised when the powers that be take you at your word and deal with you harshly.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 16, 2008)

John Bowden from the *No More Prison *groups website. This is the leading (or amongst the leading) aboilitionist websites/groups in the UK, I suggest the boo boys or anybody truly independent out there reading this asks them why they are supporting John Bowden.... 

http://www.alternatives2prison.ik.c...802573570052C9BC?OpenDocument&prodid=&add=yes


----------



## agricola (Jan 16, 2008)

cantsin said:
			
		

> what are you on about ? anyone who opposes the state / resists the state / believes in the need for it to be overthrown ( violence would be inevitable ) forfeits the right to be released from  prison if they are in one ?????
> 
> 'Hmm tricky one' - what a plum .



Bowden is on a life sentence.  

Prisoners under life sentence are not subject to the same release conditions as the rest of the prison population (despite numerous "Political Prisoner" style moans from his supporters) - his release is subject to very stringent conditions described here.  His release under such conditions are hardly likely to be helped by his "prison resister" history, his writing and his association with ABC - which is something that he and his supporters seem to ignore.


----------



## agricola (Jan 16, 2008)

Attica said:
			
		

> John Bowden from the *No More Prison *groups website. This is the leading (or amongst the leading) aboilitionist websites/groups in the UK, I suggest the boo boys or anybody truly independent out there reading this asks them why they are supporting John Bowden....
> 
> http://www.alternatives2prison.ik.c...802573570052C9BC?OpenDocument&prodid=&add=yes



I especially like the "Killed by Britain's Prisons in 2004.... Harold Shipman, 57, died HMP Wakefield"


----------



## likesfish (Jan 16, 2008)

so he's in trouble with 

d)       whether the lifer has made positive and successful efforts to address the attitudes and behavioral problems which led to the commission of the index offence;
e)       the nature of any offences against prison discipline committed  by the lifer;
f)         the lifer’s attitude and behaviour to other prisoners and staff,
  whether the lifer is likely to comply with the conditions attached to his or her life licence and the requirements of supervision, including any additional non-standard conditions;  
  seems he may have got some education and is now thinking. But the class warrior bullshit won't impress any parole board


----------



## untethered (Jan 16, 2008)

Attica said:
			
		

> John Bowden from the *No More Prison *groups website. This is the leading (or amongst the leading) aboilitionist websites/groups in the UK, I suggest the boo boys or anybody truly independent out there reading this asks them why they are supporting John Bowden....
> 
> http://www.alternatives2prison.ik.com/pub/customersites/communitykit/son-030628145746.nsf/0/0A509CF7A4256AF9802573570052C9BC?OpenDocument&prodid=&add=yes



Is there any sane person in the world that thinks that imprisoning Mr Bowden for his dreadful crimes was not only appropriate but necessary?

How many people's heads would he have to collect in his fridge before someone locked him away to - get this - stop him permanently infringing other people's right to life and liberty?


----------



## untethered (Jan 16, 2008)

agricola said:
			
		

> I especially like the "Killed by Britain's Prisons in 2004.... Harold Shipman, 57, died HMP Wakefield"



You couldn't make it up!


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 16, 2008)

untethered said:
			
		

> You couldn't make it up!


Wot?
 Doesn't bother me, he is one name out of thousands...


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 16, 2008)

likesfish said:
			
		

> so he's in trouble with
> d)       whether the lifer has made positive and successful efforts to address the attitudes and behavioral problems which led to the commission of the index offence;
> e)       the nature of any offences against prison discipline committed  by the lifer;
> f)         the lifer’s attitude and behaviour to other prisoners and staff,
> ...



DOn't you think that in a country which professes NOT to have any political prisoners, that it shouldn't matter what political points of view he has?


----------



## agricola (Jan 16, 2008)

Attica said:
			
		

> DOn't you think that in a country which professes NOT to have any political prisoners, that it shouldn't matter what political points of view he has?



He isnt a political prisoner, as should be obvious.


----------



## untethered (Jan 16, 2008)

Attica said:
			
		

> Wot?
> Doesn't bother me, he is one name out of thousands...



And how many of those thousands are people who are rightly convicted and imprisoned for horrible crimes?

Suicide in prison is a bad thing, of course, but I very much doubt in most cases it's the fault of the prison, much less the system of imprisonment.

Perhaps with the right support and encouragement Mr Bowden would have eventually been able to kick the old kidnap/torture/murder habit, but if it were down to me I'd prefer not to wait.


----------



## untethered (Jan 16, 2008)

Attica said:
			
		

> DOn't you think that in a country which professes NOT to have any political prisoners, that it shouldn't matter what political points of view he has?



Mr Bowden isn't a political prisoner. He's a common criminal who will be kept in custody until such time as the parole board feel that it's safe to release him.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 16, 2008)

untethered said:
			
		

> Mr Bowden isn't a political prisoner. He's a common criminal who will be kept in custody until such time as the parole board feel that it's safe to release him.



Answer my question please not yours dimwit.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 16, 2008)

agricola said:
			
		

> He isnt a political prisoner, as should be obvious.



Doh! That's not what I said. 

If a man is being kept inside for political beliefs, do you not think it is obvious that he is a political prisoner?


----------



## untethered (Jan 16, 2008)

Attica said:
			
		

> If a man is being kept inside for political beliefs, do you not think it is obvious that he is a political prisoner?



A political prisoner is someone who is taken into custody for their political viewpoint. Mr Bowden was taken into custody because he was convicted of a brutal murder. He committed several more serious violent crimes while in custody.

As a life prisoner, he has no inherent right to be released at all.


----------



## agricola (Jan 16, 2008)

Attica said:
			
		

> Doh! That's not what I said.
> 
> If a man is being kept inside for political beliefs, do you not think it is obvious that he is a political prisoner?



No, because thats not why he is being kept inside, as is obvious even from Bowdens' own writings where he states he is a life prisoner.  He is inside because he murderered someone.


----------



## likesfish (Jan 16, 2008)

but his political views won't help at a parole board meeting as they don't satisfy
this " i'm a resister anachrist kind of hard to say that then claim but I'll turn up for any supervision required of my licence 

whether the lifer is likely to comply with the conditions attached to his or her life licence and the requirements of supervision, including any additional


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 16, 2008)

Fuck the law and their legalese. Fuk it all. And I mean this most sincerely folks.

I have to resort to quoting Hegel


----------



## untethered (Jan 16, 2008)

Anyway, what's the latest news?

He's still complaining about being locked up?

Well golly, hold the front page.


----------



## likesfish (Jan 16, 2008)

if that nutter who did the soho nail bomb had a regular column in stormfront at parole time it wouldn't help his parole application


----------



## cantsin (Jan 16, 2008)

likesfish said:
			
		

> if that nutter who did the soho nail bomb had a regular column in stormfront at parole time it wouldn't help his parole application



god you're stupid


----------



## Jografer (Jan 16, 2008)

Prattica rides again.....


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 16, 2008)

untethered said:
			
		

> Anyway, what's the latest news?
> 
> He's still complaining about being locked up?
> 
> Well golly, hold the front page.



Well clearly you wouldn't have anything to do with your life if it wasn't for John Bowden.

Incidentally for anybody who is sensibly impartial to all these meanderings, do you not thing that after 10 years inside people are not the same as when they went in? 

Certainly I have changed a lot in 10 years - *it is called growing older*, got to teach the kids to hate the queen and the police etc whilst still doing well. Currently a balancing act achieved well btw  

Doing time doesn't naturally make people better, and in a lot of cases makes people worse - the prison as universities of crime.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 16, 2008)

Jografer said:
			
		

> Prattica rides again.....


Cheers wanker. And hello to you too. Meet my mate the crowbar


----------



## Jografer (Jan 16, 2008)

Attica said:
			
		

> If a man is being kept inside for political beliefs, do you not think it is obvious that he is a political prisoner?



Oh, I see, nothing to do with "_throwing him into a bath of boiling water, then dismembering him while he was still alive, keeping his head in a fridge and scattering the other body parts around the area_"


----------



## Jografer (Jan 16, 2008)

Attica said:
			
		

> Cheers wanker. And hello to you too. Meet my mate the crowbar



Oh, you're such a scary keyboard wadical...


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 16, 2008)

Jografer said:
			
		

> Oh, I see, nothing to do with "_throwing him into a bath of boiling water, then dismembering him while he was still alive, keeping his head in a fridge and scattering the other body parts around the area_"



Many have eyes who do not see.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 16, 2008)

Jografer said:
			
		

> Oh, you're such a scary keyboard wadical...



And you're a gimp.


----------



## spartacus mills (Jan 16, 2008)

Yossarian said:
			
		

> I reckon a lot of Bowden supporters won't be quite so enthusiastic about the cause if turns out he needs a sofa to crash on for a few weeks after he gets out...



Do you reckon they'll all be 'busy' when he invites them to his celebratory piss-up?


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 16, 2008)

spartacus mills said:
			
		

> Do you reckon they'll all be 'busy' when he invites them to his celebratory piss-up?



The above comment is for people like George Orwell said, 'who do not like the smell of the working class'... 

Funnily enough I've been to the prison where Bowden has been (last known address to me). HMP Glenochil used to be a Class War stronghold in the 
1990's  Prisons are horrible places, they are not conducive to good behaviour and values - and I am talking about the screws here.


----------



## likesfish (Jan 17, 2008)

theres normal main stream politics then there the extremes ABC are at the other end from bnp/nf.
 if you have to convince a parole board your fit to get out. being involved with a political party/org  that would ban you from most civil service posts the TA police etc.
 isn't really going to help your cause.
  I've met a few of the abc black flags types and they don't strike me as nutters 
but there magazine could be looked at in a very dubious light


----------



## Fullyplumped (Jan 17, 2008)

Attica said:
			
		

> Many have eyes who do not see.


Deep. Very deep. 

Actually it isn't. This comment, and the one at #147, is really very elitist. It suggests that most of us who have the very basic response that wicked criminals are better locked up so they can't get at us and ours are wrong and just don't _understand_. Not like people such as Attica and his clever friends who have a deeper understanding than the rest of us, and who really ought not to be questioned. It's nice to know that he's read some G Orwell, but I think a more apposite thing to say would be that we don't like the smell of unwashed anarchist poseurs.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 17, 2008)

Fullyplumped said:
			
		

> Deep. Very deep.
> 
> Actually it isn't. This comment, and the one at #147, is really very elitist. It suggests that most of us who have the very basic response that wicked criminals are better locked up so they can't get at us and ours are wrong and just don't _understand_. Not like people such as Attica and his clever friends who have a deeper understanding than the rest of us, and who really ought not to be questioned. It's nice to know that he's read some G Orwell, but I think a more apposite thing to say would be that we don't like the smell of unwashed anarchist poseurs.



Objectively you are wrong. Where is the hierarchy in what I said, I just said 'some cannot see properly' and its true. There is no elitism in post 147 either. Objectively too, I know I am better dressed than you, more fashionable, and that my bath room routines are more hygenic, and that I have the latest products for my moisturising routine et al.     

I am rebelling against those who, like you, cannot progress beyond bourgeois hegemony. You have adopted the viewpoint of the status quo and think it is  OK. It is not.

The working class populate the countries prisons, they're not all angels, but they certainly are the people for whom progressive politics must have something to say, and who should be be able to use that politics...


----------



## Boris Sprinkler (Jan 17, 2008)

heh. You sound like me when I was a teenager.


----------



## untethered (Jan 17, 2008)

Attica said:
			
		

> Doing time doesn't naturally make people better, and in a lot of cases makes people worse - the prison as universities of crime.



Does Professor Bowden have tenure?


----------



## JHE (Jan 17, 2008)

untethered said:
			
		

> Does Professor Bowden have tenure?



Yes.  He was appointed for life to the prestigious Josef Mengele Chair of Vivisection and Morbid Anatomy at the University of HMP.


----------



## Jean-Luc (Jan 17, 2008)

I bet Mark Barnsley, who is master-minding Bowden's release campaign (and who has a conviction for a knife crime himself), is furious with Attica for starting this thread. I thought he had given instructions to his supporters not to bring the case up on bulletin boards as he can't control what people say there or prevent the truth coming out. Lying to the state is one thing. Lying to the rest of us is another.


----------



## untethered (Jan 17, 2008)

Jean-Luc said:
			
		

> I bet Mark Barnsley, who is *master-minding* Bowden's release campaign.



Is Michael Barrymore looking for a new PR adviser, then?


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 17, 2008)

Boris Sprinkler said:
			
		

> heh. You sound like me when I was a teenager.



You sound like a sad old fart brother.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 17, 2008)

Jean-Luc said:
			
		

> I bet Mark Barnsley, who is master-minding Bowden's release campaign (and who has a conviction for a knife crime himself), is furious with Attica for starting this thread. I thought he had given instructions to his supporters not to bring the case up on bulletin boards as he can't control what people say there or prevent the truth coming out. Lying to the state is one thing. Lying to the rest of us is another.



There is no truth to come out. 

I have not heard that about or from Mark either, it leads me to believe you are a grade A shitstirrer. Have you any evidence or did you make it up? I think you made it up...


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 17, 2008)

untethered said:
			
		

> Is Michael Barrymore looking for a new PR adviser, then?



You have not got anything at all useful to say, is it any wonder.....


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 17, 2008)

untethered said:
			
		

> Does Professor Bowden have tenure?


More like Unhinged - look here's what somebody else said about you - you divisive arsewipe;

Originally Posted by tarannau
I'd say the same to you, but clearly you haven't. It's not as though you engage with the actual world or real people - your grossly innaccurate posts and staggering misconceptions repeatedly prove that.


----------



## untethered (Jan 17, 2008)

Attica said:
			
		

> More like Unhinged - look here's what somebody else said about you - you divisive a-;
> 
> Originally Posted by tarannau
> I'd say the same to you, but clearly you haven't. It's not as though you engage with the actual world or real people - your grossly innaccurate posts and staggering misconceptions repeatedly prove that.



You could at least make an effort and write your own critique! Very poor.

Bear in mind I'm not the one trying to get the unrepentant psycho killer his freedom.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 17, 2008)

untethered said:
			
		

> You could at least make an effort and write your own critique! Very poor.
> 
> Bear in mind I'm not the one trying to get the unrepentant psycho killer his freedom.



 That's all you're worth wanker.


----------



## durruti02 (Jan 17, 2008)

of course the irony is that bowden NEEDED to be locked up at that moment in time .. both for his own protection .. if he had not been he probhably would have been killed sooner rather than later .. and, again ironically, as it was his doing time that 'allowed' him to become an anarchist etc 

fhe record i think he should probably be released as i doubt very much he is still a threat 'to society' .. though yes i do not see much remorse in his writings 

and i agree with much of his position re prisons .. there MUST be alternatives for 'victims' such as him both before they get into trouble ..

 but i think it insane that so called anarchists prioritise these so called political prisoners like bowden when we have tens of thousends of other working class prisoners who we should be supportted ..


----------



## Boris Sprinkler (Jan 17, 2008)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> but i think it insane that so called anarchists prioritise these so called political prisoners like Bowden when we have tens of thousands of other working class prisoners who should be supported ..



Nail, head.

Attica, pay attention.


----------



## agricola (Jan 17, 2008)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> but i think it insane that so called anarchists prioritise these so called political prisoners like bowden when we have tens of thousends of other working class prisoners who we should be supportted ..



Hear hear, though it will no doubt be wasted on Attica.


----------



## Jean-Luc (Jan 17, 2008)

Attica said:
			
		

> There is no truth to come out.
> 
> I have not heard that about or from Mark either, it leads me to believe you are a grade A shitstirrer. Have you any evidence or did you make it up? I think you made it up...


Well, if you haven't heard about this then you're obviously not part of the inner circle. What I suggest is that you ask Barnsley yourself and let us know his reply. I think you'll find I'm right.
In his original press statement Barnsley gave the impression that all Bowden had done was stab somebody in a Saturday night brawl (rather like the one he himself got done for) but you don't get 25 years for that. So people investigated and the truth about what Bowden had actually done came out. The full truth about Bowden has still not yet come out, for instance his support for Irish Republican bombing campaigns in Britain that kill innocent workers (funny anarchist to support extending the borders of a capitalist state) and his view that drug dealers should be shot (even though they're mainly fellow workers seeking to make a living but logical, I suppose, since what else could be done with them, from his point of view, when once all the prison walls have come down even under capitalism).
BTW, what were you in prison for? Some knife crime against a fellow worker or was it just breaking and entering into a fellow worker's house?


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 17, 2008)

Boris Sprinkler said:
			
		

> Nail, head.
> 
> Attica, pay attention.



Arsehole... I have been doing that practically since the early 1990s... I've been to more prisons than you have had hot dinners


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 17, 2008)

Jean-Luc said:
			
		

> A) Well, if you haven't heard about this then you're obviously not part of the inner circle. What I suggest is that you ask Barnsley yourself and let us know his reply. I think you'll find I'm right.
> 
> B) In his original press statement Barnsley gave the impression that all Bowden had done was stab somebody in a Saturday night brawl (rather like the one he himself got done for) but you don't get 25 years for that. So people investigated and the truth about what Bowden had actually done came out. The full truth about Bowden has still not yet come out, for instance his support for Irish Republican bombing campaigns in Britain that kill innocent workers (funny anarchist to support extending the borders of a capitalist state) and his view that drug dealers should be shot (even though they're mainly fellow workers seeking to make a living but logical, I suppose, since what else could be done with them, from his point of view, when once all the prison walls have come down even under capitalism).
> BTW, what were you in prison for? Some knife crime against a fellow worker or was it just breaking and entering into a fellow worker's house?



A) NO EVIDENCE!

B) There is no further 'truth' to come out, many in and around Class War have supported Irish catholic communties against the British state. Why are you intent on looking at Bowden, you would be better off like Corporate Watch is doing and targetting the class enemy. It's a very strange and wank section who are obsessed with Bowden...


----------



## Boris Sprinkler (Jan 17, 2008)

It's not something to boast about. I've managed to keep my arsehole out of prison. You're not supposed to go there.


----------



## untethered (Jan 17, 2008)

Attica said:
			
		

> It's a very strange and w- section who are obsessed with Bowden...



Who posted this thread?


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 17, 2008)

Boris Sprinkler said:
			
		

> It's not something to boast about. I've managed to keep my arsehole out of prison. You're not supposed to go there.



Oh do fek orrrfff - it's clear who has done serious pro working class prisoners support work and who hasn't on these boards, sooo obvious. And as usual its the wallies who haven't had any practice who are gobbing off.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 17, 2008)

untethered said:
			
		

> Who posted this thread?


 That's got fek all to do with anything you right wing scrote.


----------



## Boris Sprinkler (Jan 17, 2008)

Attica said:
			
		

> Oh do fek orrrfff - it's clear who has done serious pro working class prisoners support work and who hasn't on these boards, sooo obvious. And as usual its the wallies who haven't had any practice who are gobbing off.



Good for you. I don't. But then I ain't the one banging on about trying to get some fuckwit released from prison. And he is a fuckwit (not to mention a murderer), since it is so painfully obvious what he has to do in order to get released. It's not rocket science. Nor is he a political prisoner.

As pointed out earlier. So much more could be gained by covering worthwhile cases, those that are innocent or incacerated with dubious convictions, but it seems those wadical boys supporting Bowden are as dense as he is.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 17, 2008)

Sometimes classs truggle means you go with the struggle you know and have got. Bowden is an interesting case, he has been met and contacted regularly for years. His writing on prisons is usually of a high standard, and has been for a long time. 

You can't pick and choose your class struggle (well some youngsters can), for those of us who mean our politics we go with what we have got regardless... sometimes we maybe destined not to win (it is NORMALLY because of the efforts of the class enemy)...


----------



## untethered (Jan 17, 2008)

Attica said:
			
		

> That's got f- all to do with anything you right wing scrote.



You were saying something disparaging about people who are obsessed with Mr Bowden.

Isn't it you that keeps starting threads about him?


----------



## untethered (Jan 17, 2008)

Attica said:
			
		

> sometimes we maybe destined not to win (it is NORMALLY because of the efforts of the class enemy)...



Nothing to do with you being incompetent and irrelevant, then?


----------



## marty21 (Jan 17, 2008)

you're wasted with the anarchists attica, you're ability to not answer questions and completely ignore facts would be more at home in one of the main parties


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 17, 2008)

agricola said:
			
		

> Hear hear, though it will no doubt be wasted on Attica.


Fuck off copper


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 17, 2008)

untethered said:
			
		

> You were saying something disparaging about people who are obsessed with Mr Bowden.



More like Unhinged - look here's what somebody else said about you - you divisive arsewipe;

Originally Posted by tarannau
I'd say the same to you, but clearly you haven't. It's not as though you engage with the actual world or real people - your grossly innaccurate posts and staggering misconceptions repeatedly prove that.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 17, 2008)

untethered said:
			
		

> Nothing to do with you being incompetent and irrelevant, then?



More like Unhinged - look here's what somebody else said about you - you divisive arsewipe;

Originally Posted by tarannau
I'd say the same to you, but clearly you haven't. It's not as though you engage with the actual world or real people - your grossly innaccurate posts and staggering misconceptions repeatedly prove that.


----------



## Jean-Luc (Jan 17, 2008)

Attica said:
			
		

> A) NO EVIDENCE!
> 
> B) There is no further 'truth' to come out, many in and around Class War have supported Irish catholic communties against the British state.



A) OK, evidence. Barnsley described libcom forum as a "toilet" for allowing a full and free discussion of the Bowden case and he and his mates withdrew from it. And he also withdrew as the prison correspondent of the anarchist paper "Freedom" because they published a letter exposing the truth about what Bowden was in for. He lied to start with and ever since has sought the suppress the circulation of the truth.

B) Maybe "many in and around Class War" did support Irish Republican bombing campaigns. I don't know but as far as I'm concerned the IRA and its offshoots are just as much the class enemy as the British State. I don't believe in killing innocent workers (remember the Birmingham pub bombings?)and then apologising saying it was a mistake or collateral damage. As an Irish Republican "anarchist" Bowden does.


----------



## untethered (Jan 17, 2008)

Attica said:
			
		

> More like Unhinged - look here's what somebody else said about you - you divisive arsewipe;
> 
> Originally Posted by tarannau
> I'd say the same to you, but clearly you haven't. It's not as though you engage with the actual world or real people - your grossly innaccurate posts and staggering misconceptions repeatedly prove that.



Deja vu. Spooky.


----------



## agricola (Jan 17, 2008)

Jean-Luc said:
			
		

> A) OK, evidence. Barnsley described libcom forum as a "toilet" for allowing a full and free discussion of the Bowden case and he and his mates withdrew from it. And he also withdrew as the prison correspondent of the anarchist paper "Freedom" because they published a letter exposing the truth about what Bowden was in for. He lied to start with and ever since has sought the suppress the circulation of the truth.



That libcom article (cut in half for relevance, the full article is here)




			
				Mark B said:
			
		

> I don't intend to be drawn into contributing to this thread, I find some of the comments on it contemptible, and I am wary of debating with those emboldened by anonymity into posting some of the rubbish above. Nonetheless I am below replicating a post I've just made to a thread on Indymedia, and beneath it I'll copy the article that's being referred to above:
> 
> I find it rather disgusting that some who characterise themselves as 'anarchists' are busy trawling Spanish 'slaughter-porn' sites and the archives of the right-wing press in an attempt to justify John Bowden's continued incarceration. This 'monster' has actually been out walking among us many times over the past year, and has not been returned to closed conditions because of anything to do with the events of nearly 30 years ago (which are not being reported accurately), nor because of any concerns over public safety, but because he refuses to renounce the Anarchist Black Cross. It is shameful that the debate about John Bowden is concentrated elsewhere.
> 
> ...



Its worth noting that Bowden and his accomplices were convicted of conspiracy to rob Ryan, and that Brindle (who Barnsley mentions) was also a co-defendant, though she was only found guilty of preventing Ryan's burial.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 17, 2008)

Jean-Luc said:
			
		

> A) OK, evidence. Barnsley described libcom forum as a "toilet" for allowing a full and free discussion of the Bowden case and he and his mates withdrew from it. And he also withdrew as the prison correspondent of the anarchist paper "Freedom" because they published a letter exposing the truth about what Bowden was in for. He lied to start with and ever since has sought the suppress the circulation of the truth.
> 
> B) *Maybe "many in and around Class War" did support Irish Republican bombing campaigns*. I don't know but as far as I'm concerned the IRA and its offshoots are just as much the class enemy as the British State. I don't believe in killing innocent workers (remember the Birmingham pub bombings?)and then apologising saying it was a mistake or collateral damage. As an Irish Republican "anarchist" Bowden does.



perhaps... And he was right about LIbcom, by wankers for wankers   And there is some truth in that, not absolute truth but some...

A) NO! Evidence again!! That is no evidence of a conscious campaign at all, it is circumstantial evidence of hatred of the wankers at Libcom/freedom at best. Paul Marsh has mentioned this before, and I will add that it shows the absolute poverty of the movement that this has carried on like it has... I said before that if it carries on relations within the movement will deteriorate further, and I was obviously right. 

You youngsters have NO idea about how to conduct yourselves tactfully and respectfully, where people might listen to you, and that is because of your theoretical poverty. I think a new pamphlet is called for "On the Poverty of Libcom life"...

*I repeat, a call for a movement wide annual conference of the class struggle @ movement on a non sectarian basis, to try and improve relations within the movement and improve collective politics.*

B) You are slandering many who have associated with Class War there in a similar vein to Revol, I think you are in danger and I think you should retract that. I have put in bold the problem area in your quote. 

You appear to be a naive youngster with your pathetic line, as if there were no relationships within the catholic communities which fought the British state. What were they supposed to do? SUpport the establishment of a pure working class anarchist federation and then, and only then, fight back? Bollocks. Fighting happens in demand to the situation, and at the time it was important to resist the British state. YOU would have sat on the sidelines, waving the British troops in, pointing out where the Irish resistance were hiding...


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 17, 2008)

agricola said:
			
		

> That libcom article (cut in half for relevance, the full article is here)
> Originally Posted by Mark B
> I don't intend to be drawn into contributing to this thread, I find some of the comments on it contemptible, and I am wary of debating with those emboldened by anonymity into posting some of the rubbish above. Nonetheless I am below replicating a post I've just made to a thread on Indymedia, and beneath it I'll copy the article that's being referred to above:
> 
> ...



This is a good article showing the realistic humanity of the situation... 

and also the naive repeating rubbish leads to the hatred of those sceptics i would say...


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 17, 2008)

*Hegel*

"A murderer is led to the place of execution. For the common populace he is nothing but a murderer. Ladies perhaps remark that he is a strong, handsome, interesting man. The pupulace finds this remark terrible: What? A murderer handsome? How can one think so wickedly and call a murderer handsome; no doubt, you yourselves are something not much better! THis is the corruption of morals that is prevalent in the upper classes, a priest may add, knowing the bottom of things and human hearts. One who knows men traces the development of the criminal's mind: he finds in his history, in his education, a bad family relationship between his father and mother, some tremendous harshness after this human being had done some minor wrong, so he became embittered against the social order... and henceforth did not make it possible for him to preserve himself except through crime. There may be people who will say when they hear such things: he wants to excuse this murderer!... This is abstract thinking: to see nothing in the murderer except the abstract fact that he is a murderer, and to annul all other human essence in him with this simple quality." 

 Hegel here saying that a 'murderer' is actually many things, a brother, son, nephew, step father, father... etc. This is many sided Marxist thinking, rather than one sided and reactionary thinking.


----------



## spartacus mills (Jan 17, 2008)

Attica said:
			
		

> You youngsters have NO idea about how to conduct yourselves tactfully and respectfully, where people might listen to you.....



Up yours, grandad!!


----------



## newbie (Jan 17, 2008)

Mark B said:
			
		

> as for robbery being the motive for this killing, it seems unlikely to me that a member of the Brindle crime family (the flat the killing occurred in was actually owned by Shirley Brindle) would be engaged in 'rolling drunks'.



certainly an odd connection
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brindle_family
http://tinyurl.com/yrjcvp


----------



## Boris Sprinkler (Jan 18, 2008)

Attica said:
			
		

> "A murderer is led to the place of execution. For the common populace he is nothing but a murderer. Ladies perhaps remark that he is a strong, handsome, interesting man. The pupulace finds this remark terrible: What? A murderer handsome? How can one think so wickedly and call a murderer handsome; no doubt, you yourselves are something not much better! THis is the corruption of morals that is prevalent in the upper classes, a priest may add, knowing the bottom of things and human hearts. One who knows men traces the development of the criminal's mind: he finds in his history, in his education, a bad family relationship between his father and mother, some tremendous harshness after this human being had done some minor wrong, so he became embittered against the social order... and henceforth did not make it possible for him to preserve himself except through crime. There may be people who will say when they hear such things: he wants to excuse this murderer!... This is abstract thinking: to see nothing in the murderer except the abstract fact that he is a murderer, and to annul all other human essence in him with this simple quality."
> 
> Hegel here saying that a 'murderer' is actually many things, a brother, son, nephew, step father, father... etc. This is many sided Marxist thinking, rather than one sided and reactionary thinking.



Bowden is lucky he's not getting hung then.

Or is what you are saying is that he's handsome? And that's why you are all wanking over him?


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 18, 2008)

Attica said:
			
		

> I think you are in danger



I'm getting pretty sick of your pathetic threats.  This is the kind of thing that puts people off supporting the campaigns you're involved in.  Wanker.


----------



## Jean-Luc (Jan 18, 2008)

newbie said:
			
		

> certainly an odd connection
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brindle_family
> http://tinyurl.com/yrjcvp


What a turn up for the books. So, Bowden was also a member of a notorious South London gang. A ganster as well as a nutter. And Attica told us that there was no more truth to come out. I wonder how many of Barnsley's naive supporters know this.


----------



## agricola (Jan 18, 2008)

Jean-Luc said:
			
		

> What a turn up for the books. So, Bowden was also a member of a notorious South London gang. A ganster as well as a nutter. And Attica told us that there was no more truth to come out. I wonder how many of Barnsley's naive supporters know this.



Whether or not he was a member is open to debate - certainly there doesnt seem to be easily (ie: on the internet) available evidence that he was, but its surely impossible to deny the robbery angle, given that he and his co-defendants were found guilty of it.


----------



## newbie (Jan 18, 2008)

I recognised the name in passing as I read around this during the threads a couple of months ago, but didn't really know what to make of it. I'm rather more puzzled to discover one of his prime supporters thinks it's an association which helps his case.


----------



## newbie (Jan 18, 2008)

It is a bit of a distraction though.  I still think the real issue is whether he'd be out on license now were it not for one social workers antipathy to his political views. If so, that does tend to indicate that he's currently locked up for thought crime, which cannot be acceptable.


----------



## Fullyplumped (Jan 18, 2008)

newbie said:
			
		

> It is a bit of a distraction though.  I still think the real issue is whether he'd be out on license now were it not for one social workers antipathy to his political views. If so, that does tend to indicate that he's currently locked up for thought crime, which cannot be acceptable.


How might these things be otherwise arranged? Having a Social Worker, retired police officer or someone with a similar profession carry out a background investigation would be a useful first step. 

If the claims made by the Bowden supporters about the Social Worker and bias are true, then that's regrettable; and if an investigation by Perth & Kinross Council (I don't understand why they're trying to involve Fife Council) was carried out and came to the conclusion reported then it may be that a fresh investigation is required by a different Social Worker. 

We should not take it for granted that the reporting by the _Let That Nice Mr Bowden Out Of Jail Now Campaign_ is true, of course, given its history. 

The racist vilification of the Social Worker is frankly worrying, and I would imagine that a body considering granting licence to this convicted murderer would take likely associates into account. That's why I suggested earlier to Attica that the present campaign really isn't helping. 

He was not locked up for "thought crime", he was sentenced to life imprisonment for a series of crimes including a gruesome murder and was told that 25 years was the minimum period for which he should be punished inside prison. He has passed the chronological 25 year mark in his life sentence for murder, but presumably his period of absence from jail after the escape in which he harmed a senior SPS employee will need to be taken into account. 

He is serving a life sentence for murder, though, and he won't get out if he can't or won't show remorse. There is no evidence that he has done so, just an overwhelming sense of grievance that he was a victim rather than a perpetrator, something that his allies outside are perpetuating with half-truths and concealment of what he has done. These are very relevant to the question of whether he should get out on licence to serve the remainder of his life sentence for murder in the community.


----------



## newbie (Jan 18, 2008)

er hangon, I haven't vilified anyone, specially not in a racist way.

I agree that the present campaign is probably harming his chances of getting out, but I'm not involved in it and that's for those that are to consider.





			
				Fullyplumped said:
			
		

> He was not locked up for "thought crime",



Please don't muddy what I said, I haven't suggested for a moment he was locked up for thoughtcrime. 

SFAICS he was in an open prison and being assessed for release on license in accordance with his sentence(s) and the rules applying to lifers. What is alleged is that he was whisked back into a Cat A prison and removed from the release assessment process because of a negative report based on his political associations.  It is now alleged that external scrutiny of that report reveals no substantial evidence to support its rather dramatic conclusions. He also alleges that the report caused him to spend 6 month in a Cat A prison and that it may have delayed his release by a year or so.

I don't know if any of that is actually true, it may not be.  However, on face value his *recent* treatment appears to be based on thoughtcrime, not on any specific recent action.

Of course, this might all be a smokescreen and he might not have been released on license because of a lack of remorse, or a well founded anticipation that he'll do something similar again, etc etc.  None of us know that, one way or the other.

But as with any other prisoner being assessed for release on license, he's entitled to a fair and reasonable process based on natural justice and involving professionalism throughout.  He does not appear, again on the face of what we've been told, to have had that.

Constantly reiterating the gruesomeness of his original crime changes none of that.


----------



## agricola (Jan 18, 2008)

Fullyplumped said:
			
		

> How might these things be otherwise arranged? Having a Social Worker, retired police officer or someone with a similar profession carry out a background investigation would be a useful first step.
> 
> If the claims made by the Bowden supporters about the Social Worker and bias are true, then that's regrettable; and if an investigation by Perth & Kinross Council (I don't understand why they're trying to involve Fife Council) was carried out and came to the conclusion reported then it may be that a fresh investigation is required by a different Social Worker.
> 
> ...



Well yes.  Given that the SPS has stated they wont release the documents relating to Bowden we have only Bowden's and his supporters unsupported views of what has gone on.  Given their prior history in this campaign I think most people can determine for themselves what value these have.




			
				Fullyplumped said:
			
		

> He was not locked up for "thought crime", he was sentenced to life imprisonment for a series of crimes including a gruesome murder and was told that 25 years was the minimum period for which he should be punished inside prison. He has passed the chronological 25 year mark in his life sentence for murder, but presumably his period of absence from jail after the escape in which he harmed a senior SPS employee will need to be taken into account.



You missed the ten year sentence (which Bowden has said was on top of the life sentence) he recieved for the Parkhurst hostage taking in 1982.  




			
				Fullyplumped said:
			
		

> He is serving a life sentence for murder, though, and he won't get out if he can't or won't show remorse. There is no evidence that he has done so, just an overwhelming sense of grievance that he was a victim rather than a perpetrator, something that his allies outside are perpetuating with half-truths and concealment of what he has done. These are very relevant to the question of whether he should get out on licence to serve the remainder of his life sentence for murder in the community.



Exactly.


----------



## Fullyplumped (Jan 18, 2008)

newbie said:
			
		

> er hangon, I haven't vilified anyone, specially not in a racist way. I agree that the present campaign is probably harming his chances of getting out, but I'm not involved in it and that's for those that are to consider.


I'm sorry, I didn't mean to suggest that you were. I was referring to articles from supporters like Class War.


----------



## Fullyplumped (Jan 18, 2008)

agricola said:
			
		

> You missed the ten year sentence (which Bowden has said was on top of the life sentence) he recieved for the Parkhurst hostage taking in 1982.


I certainly did!


----------



## newbie (Jan 18, 2008)

np


----------



## Frampton (Jan 18, 2008)

Some comments

Neitzsche warned somewhere to "be wary of those in whom the desire to punish is strong"

There's isn't much "give" in the arguments being offered. Reducing the threads to personal insults merely polarises positions further.

The grace to understand that a prisoner (whatever he has done) spending extended times in solitary needs some pretty powerful defence mechanisms in order to continue. Such values are far removed from our own everyday comforts.

In a free society any vigilanti group uncovering such an atrocity would deal with the offender and once the punishment was over - say a decent burial - that would be the end of the matter.

If we say that 25 years warrants the end of the punishment then tagging on further stringent conditions: confessions of remorse, acceptance of state agency wisdom, denial of political beliefs, choice of associates, etc. seems to carry a tinge of unjustice.

I think that both capital punishment and extended prison sentences are atrocities in themselves. In truth I don't know what the answer is to major crimes. It's more that we ask what is it that makes people disrespect others -people, animals, the environment?

But the implications within this question is something for trial and experiment. No one said that Anarchism is an easy ride.


----------



## Fullyplumped (Jan 18, 2008)

Frampton, would you not accept that public protection is a reasonable factor in determining whether to release someone early from a life sentence? And surely the question of whether someione has accepted the magnitude of his crime and was genuinely contrite and remorseful is a reasonable thing to expect? 

My own view is that while the just punishment for murder is death, for practical reasons that is not acceptable and so a sentence of life imprisonment is a reasonable substitute. That allows a society to decide that a lifer can be released - on strict licence - but only under certain conditions. I really don't feel comfortable with this chap getting out for a few years yet, but of course I only have limited knowledge of the circumstances. What I have read gives me no confidence, though.


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Jan 18, 2008)

Fullyplumped said:
			
		

> Frampton, would you not accept that public protection is a reasonable factor in determining whether to release someone early from a life sentence? And surely the question of whether someione has accepted the magnitude of his crime and was genuinely contrite and remorseful is a reasonable thing to expect?
> 
> My own view is that while the just punishment for murder is death, for practical reasons that is not acceptable and so a sentence of life imprisonment is a reasonable substitute. That allows a society to decide that a lifer can be released - on strict licence - but only under certain conditions. I really don't feel comfortable with this chap getting out for a few years yet, but of course I only have limited knowledge of the circumstances. What I have read gives me no confidence, though.


So basically, even though by your own admission, you have no idea whether Bowden actually has demonstrated the criteria that you deem sufficient for him to be released, you're still of the opinion that he should remain locked up, even though he was on day release work schemes with children prior to the social workers report that saw his license application revoked and him banged up again. Ain't no justice, just us eh?


----------



## Fullyplumped (Jan 18, 2008)

Paulie Tandoori said:
			
		

> So basically, even though by your own admission, you have no idea whether Bowden actually has demonstrated the criteria that you deem sufficient for him to be released, you're still of the opinion that he should remain locked up, even though he was on day release work schemes with children prior to the social workers report that saw his license application revoked and him banged up again. Ain't no justice, just us eh?


Yes. What do you think?


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Jan 18, 2008)

Fullyplumped said:
			
		

> Yes. What do you think?


I think it sets an extremely dangerous precedent if our judicial system continues to hold people in prison in an arbitrary fashion, Mr Bowden being just one example of that trend. The use of indeterminate sentencing now, whereby offenders who have served their sentence are not released until fulfilling conditions that are often impossible to meet under current practices, as well as moves to further restrict the rights of offenders should worry us all. I find this whole debate quite tiresome on here, any constuctive debate on this issue is always overshadowed by someone popping up with some completely hyperbolic statement about the crime that was committed rather than dealing with the issues of rehabilitation and prejudice in our penal system.


----------



## Fullyplumped (Jan 18, 2008)

It's not arbitrary or indeterminate. A life sentence involves the presumption that the convicted person will spend all his or her life in jail. Most, but not all, people get released on licence, but only under certain circumstances, which are well-enough known. These rules have applied for a long time - no precedent is being set here. Mr Bowden's solicitor is almost certainly likely to be able to advise him of how these rules work and what rights he has. I am sorry if you find the debate tiresome, but the nature of the crime should also be central to a discussion of how the criminal should be punished.


----------



## agricola (Jan 18, 2008)

Frampton said:
			
		

> If we say that 25 years warrants the end of the punishment then tagging on further stringent conditions: confessions of remorse, acceptance of state agency wisdom, denial of political beliefs, choice of associates, etc. seems to carry a tinge of unjustice.



The point is that 25 years is not the end of the punishment - that was his original sentence for murder.  You have to add on the 18 months escape, and the ten year sentence he recieved for a hostage taking right after he was sentenced for murder.  As for "confessions of remorse", I think with someone of Bowden's self-proclaimed extensive criminal history and bearing in mind the nature of the crime, one should - if for no other reason than in order to protect society and its members - expect that he at least make an attempt to understand his own overwhelming responsibility.  One might also think that he should not rail against the terrible injustices he considers to have been inflicted on him as a prisoner, given why he is inside.


----------



## agricola (Jan 18, 2008)

Paulie Tandoori said:
			
		

> So basically, even though by your own admission, you have no idea whether Bowden actually has demonstrated the criteria that you deem sufficient for him to be released, you're still of the opinion that he should remain locked up, even though he was on day release work schemes with children prior to the social workers report that saw his license application revoked and him banged up again. Ain't no justice, just us eh?



Given his history and his sentencing, its a bit of a scandal that he was let out in the first place to be honest.  25 years for an especially vile murder, 10 years for a hostage taking, long term "prison resistance" and an escape for a year and a half, and he is on day release ten years later?


----------



## JHE (Jan 18, 2008)

Frampton said:
			
		

> If we say that 25 years warrants the end of the punishment...



Ah, but we don't...

25 years is not the end of the sentence.  25 years marks the point after which he can _apply_ to be let out of prison on licence.  It is _not_ a point after which he is _entitled_ to be allowed out.

Even if he is allowed out on licence, the sentence continues.  He will be under the supervision of the Probation Service (though not necessarily very onerously) and he can be put back in prison at the drop of a hat.

His sentence will be complete when he dies.

If you carved him up and kept his head in the fridge, you'd end his sentence early... but then _you_ would be a sadistic murderer who would deserve a life sentence.


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Jan 18, 2008)

agricola said:
			
		

> Given his history and his sentencing, its a bit of a scandal that he was let out in the first place to be honest.  25 years for an especially vile murder, 10 years for a hostage taking, long term "prison resistance" and an escape for a year and a half, and he is on day release ten years later?


Oh of course, lock him up and throw away the key  Might as well bring back capital punishment whilst we're at it eh?


----------



## agricola (Jan 18, 2008)

Paulie Tandoori said:
			
		

> Oh of course, lock him up and throw away the key  Might as well bring back capital punishment whilst we're at it eh?



If it applies to anyone, it applies to Bowden.


----------



## newbie (Jan 18, 2008)

agricola said:
			
		

> Given his history and his sentencing, its a bit of a scandal that he was let out in the first place to be honest.  25 years for an especially vile murder, 10 years for a hostage taking, long term "prison resistance" and an escape for a year and a half, and he is on day release ten years later?



He's in a rules based system.  If you don't like the way the rules are constructed you are, of course, entitled to campaign for them to be changed. But for now, if those rules allow him to be considered for day release or conditional release on license he's entitled to natural justice and professionalism in the application of the rules.


----------



## Fullyplumped (Jan 18, 2008)

newbie said:
			
		

> He's in a rules based system.  If you don't like the way the rules are constructed you are, of course, entitled to campaign for them to be changed. But for now, if those rules allow him to be considered for day release or conditional release on license he's entitled to natural justice and professionalism in the application of the rules.


So in fact these Anarchists are just campaigning for the rules to be followed properly by the state.


----------



## newbie (Jan 18, 2008)

that's the way it appears to me, yes.  As I said, I'm not part of the campaign, just a random bod on a thread on the internet.


----------



## agricola (Jan 18, 2008)

newbie said:
			
		

> He's in a rules based system.  If you don't like the way the rules are constructed you are, of course, entitled to campaign for them to be changed. But for now, if those rules allow him to be considered for day release or conditional release on license he's entitled to natural justice and professionalism in the application of the rules.



I agree - but the rules for his release are the length of his sentence (a recommendation of 25 years + 10 years + 18 months escape) and under the conditions described here.  I would question whether if what Bowden has been saying is true whether he should have had day release.


----------



## newbie (Jan 18, 2008)

that's something only the prison authorities &/or the parole board can answer and as I don't suppose you have any standing in the matter I somehow doubt they'll give you their reasoning.  But the fact is he was on day release from an open prison, so he satisfied the relevant conditions and risk assessments.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 18, 2008)

phildwyer said:
			
		

> I'm getting pretty sick of your pathetic threats.  This is the kind of thing that puts people off supporting the campaigns you're involved in.  Wanker.



It was advice, based on what other people might do. It wasn't a threat. You as usual display your typical youth angst and outrage. You're a young version of Mary SHitehouse. BTW I am not involved in the campaign, I am one of the general public


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 18, 2008)

spartacus mills said:
			
		

> Up yours, grandad!!



Haha ha. Not gonna be a granded for a decade at least yet pal...


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 18, 2008)

Boris Sprinkler said:
			
		

> Bowden is lucky he's not getting hung then.
> 
> Or is what you are saying is that he's handsome? And that's why you are all wanking over him?



Hahahahaha you get me you do.

I am not wanking off over him, I am defending him - as I defend many otyher working class people (against middle class youth).


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 18, 2008)

Jean-Luc said:
			
		

> What a turn up for the books. So, Bowden was also a member of a notorious South London gang. A ganster as well as a nutter. And Attica told us that there was no more truth to come out. I wonder how many of Barnsley's naive supporters know this.



Big deal, we do not get agitated easily like young wankers.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 18, 2008)

agricola said:
			
		

> Whether or not he was a member is open to debate - certainly there doesnt seem to be easily (ie: on the internet) available evidence that he was, but its surely impossible to deny the robbery angle, given that he and his co-defendants were found guilty of it.



Hahahahaha you crack me up copper. A conviction proves NOTHING. It just proves the beak had a better lawyer...


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 18, 2008)

agricola said:
			
		

> Well yes.  Given that the SPS has stated they wont release the documents relating to Bowden we have only Bowden's and his supporters unsupported views of what has gone on.  Given their prior history in this campaign I think most people can determine for themselves what value these have.
> You missed the ten year sentence (which Bowden has said was on top of the life sentence) he recieved for the Parkhurst hostage taking in 1982.
> Exactly.



You are a liar too copper. I just wish you'd fek orrffff....


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 18, 2008)

*At last - some reason and sense....*




			
				Frampton said:
			
		

> Some comments
> 
> Neitzsche warned somewhere to "be wary of those in whom the desire to punish is strong"
> 
> ...



I DO APPReCIATE those with something useful to say, no thanks to the coppers and the other youth with too much point scoring angst to share. They all need some serious class struggle, and quickly.


----------



## agricola (Jan 18, 2008)

Attica said:
			
		

> Hahahahaha you crack me up copper. A conviction proves NOTHING. It just proves the beak had a better lawyer...



You do know his lawyer was Michael Mansfield, right?

edit:  also, are you are saying he was innocent, now?


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 18, 2008)

agricola said:
			
		

> You do know his lawyer was Michael Mansfield, right?
> 
> edit:  also, are you are saying he was innocent, now?



Innocent until stiched up.


----------



## chico enrico (Jan 18, 2008)

Attica said:
			
		

> The above comment is for people like George Orwell said, 'who do not like the smell of the working class'...
> 
> Funnily enough I've been to the prison where Bowden has been (last known address to me). HMP Glenochil used to be a Class War stronghold in the
> 1990's  Prisons are horrible places, they are not conducive to good behaviour and values - and I am talking about the screws here.






			
				Attica said:
			
		

> The above comment is for people like George Orwell said, 'who do not like the smell of the working class'... .



unlike ex-Etonian Orwell of course  

and i somehow doubt Glenochil was a ' CW stronghold'.

Funnily enough, i remember in the 80s a member of the Clydeside Anarchists suggesting there should be set up an 'Anarchist BLUE Cross' as the folk they knew inside would much rather have been sent porn mags than the boring politico crap they were receiving. 

In fact, don't you think Ol' Bowden's life now would probably be a lot easier and more pleasant if he'd just spent his time doing pres-ups and chugging his pipe to Reader's Wives than getting involved with these ABC loons? 

This thread is just nuts.


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Jan 18, 2008)

Attica said:
			
		

> Innocent until stiched up.


----------



## chico enrico (Jan 18, 2008)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> but i think it insane that so called anarchists prioritise these so called political prisoners like bowden when we have tens of thousends of other working class prisoners who we should be supportted ..



In.
A.
Nutshell.

Thank you, Mr Durutti


----------



## agricola (Jan 18, 2008)

Paulie Tandoori said:
			
		

>


----------



## JHE (Jan 18, 2008)

Attica said:
			
		

> Innocent until stiched up.



The pigs planted the severed head in the fridge.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 18, 2008)

chico enrico said:
			
		

> unlike ex-Etonian Orwell of course
> 
> and i somehow doubt Glenochil was a ' CW stronghold'.
> 
> ...



Absolutely. As it goes Glenochil was CW thru and thru, we had many subscribers to the paper at the time, and they would be passed around the prison so the vast majority were reading it. I remember at the time that 'A Wing was a CW wing' and so on. We did a mass visit  Ok there was 3 CW visiting seperate prisoners, but it was the tork of the nick for sum time... There was many extra screws in the visiting room too (just in case it kicked off) - which of course it didn't. BTW it doesn't matter from whence the idea comes if it is true...


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 18, 2008)

Paulie Tandoori said:
			
		

>



Use your loaf, it is not that difficult.


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Jan 18, 2008)

Attica said:
			
		

> Use your loaf, it is not that difficult.


It is though. He wasn't innocent when he was convicted was he? He was guilty of the crime as charged. The whole argument about whether he should be released isn't moved forward by pretending that he was innocent of a crime. Imvho.


----------



## Frampton (Jan 18, 2008)

*John Bowden*




			
				Fullyplumped said:
			
		

> Frampton, would you not accept that public protection is a reasonable factor in determining whether to release someone early from a life sentence? And surely the question of whether someione has accepted the magnitude of his crime and was genuinely contrite and remorseful is a reasonable thing to expect?
> 
> Well, yes and no. The problem is that professional risk assessment is so wrapped up with CYA (cover your arse) that often it becomes over-cautious and ultimately, cruelly unjust. I'm not too certain what JB has to do to convince the authorities he is genuinely contrite. The idea of intelligent long-termers playing the "remorse game" and ticking the right boxes is a suspect process.
> 
> ...


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 18, 2008)

Paulie Tandoori said:
			
		

> It is though. He wasn't innocent when he was convicted was he? He was guilty of the crime as charged. The whole argument about whether he should be released isn't moved forward by pretending that he was innocent of a crime. Imvho.



I wasn't talking about the head part....


----------



## chico enrico (Jan 18, 2008)

Attica said:
			
		

> Absolutely. As it goes Glenochil was CW thru and thru, we had many subscribers to the paper at the time, and they would be passed around the prison so the vast majority were reading it. I remember at the time that 'A Wing was a CW wing' and so on. We did a mass visit  Ok there was 3 CW visiting seperate prisoners, but it was the tork of the nick for sum time... There was many extra screws in the visiting room too (just in case it kicked off) - which of course it didn't. BTW it doesn't matter from whence the idea comes if it is true...



fair enough mate. I knew a few Glasgow CW and they are sound folk so it doesn't surprise me as Glasgow @s have always had a good rapport and involvement with prisoners support.

And, i also agree with you re the Orwell quote. He made a number of very shrewd observations with regards to the british class system;

"the englishman wears his social class like a mark of kain as clear as his nose"


----------



## durruti02 (Jan 18, 2008)

Paulie Tandoori said:
			
		

> I think it sets an extremely dangerous precedent if our judicial system continues to hold people in prison in an arbitrary fashion, Mr Bowden being just one example of that trend. The use of indeterminate sentencing now, whereby offenders who have served their sentence are not released until fulfilling conditions that are often impossible to meet under current practices, as well as moves to further restrict the rights of offenders should worry us all. I find this whole debate quite tiresome on here, any constuctive debate on this issue is always overshadowed by someone popping up with some completely hyperbolic statement about the crime that was committed rather than dealing with the issues of rehabilitation and prejudice in our penal system.



fair play paulie but most prisoners should not be in prison should they? so why all the fuss about bowden? i think it possible even probable that bowden should not be in prison too. i just find it really odd this infatuation with so called 'political prsioners' when they themselves correctly point state that all prisoners are in some way political


----------



## Fullyplumped (Jan 18, 2008)

Out of interest - the Anarchists and others who don't think Mr Bowden should be in prison - how should he be dealt with? Should he be free to roam the land unconstrained if freed from the citizens' penitentiary, or should there be some discreet citizen's surveillance?


----------



## chico enrico (Jan 18, 2008)

Attica said:
			
		

> I wasn't talking about the head part....



but surely the 'head' is what much of the 'body' of this argument is about?


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 18, 2008)

Fullyplumped said:
			
		

> Out of interest - the Anarchists and others who don't think Mr Bowden should be in prison - how should he be dealt with? Should he be free to roam the land unconstrained if freed from the citizens' penitentiary, or should there be some discreet citizen's surveillance?



Out of interest, do you think he is the same man he was when he went inside? Can you remember what you were doing 8 years ago today? Can you remember fully the motives and experience of what you were doing 8 years ago today? I bet you have changed as a person. '8 yrs' btw is a figure I am using to explore an issue.

If this is the case, then it is reasonable to assume that Johns humanity is one reason huge why he should be out - so he should be let out for his anarchism, and not trapped inside because of it. He has displayed this in his many humanistic (anti) prison reports, and as Mark described about sides when facing down the screws inside.


----------



## newbie (Jan 18, 2008)

fwiw according to the parole board, out of 1622 _"life sentence prisoners under active supervision in the community"_ during 06/07, 97 or 6% were recalled following allegations of further offences.  That seems to me to show that the parole & probation system has a reasonably good idea of how to handle such people.


----------



## agricola (Jan 18, 2008)

newbie said:
			
		

> fwiw according to the parole board, out of 1622 _"life sentence prisoners under active supervision in the community"_ during 06/07, 97 or 6% were recalled following allegations of further offences.  That seems to me to show that the parole & probation system has a reasonably good idea of how to handle such people.



It does - the supervision of life offenders is one of the last, if not the last, area where the Probation Service works as intended - or at least thats the way it seems.




			
				Attica said:
			
		

> Out of interest, do you think he is the same man he was when he went inside? Can you remember what you were doing 8 years ago today? Can you remember fully the motives and experience of what you were doing 8 years ago today? I bet you have changed as a person. '8 yrs' btw is a figure I am using to explore an issue.
> 
> If this is the case, then it is reasonable to assume that Johns humanity is one reason huge why he should be out - so he should be let out for his anarchism, and not trapped inside because of it. He has displayed this in his many humanistic (anti) prison reports, and as Mark described about sides when facing down the screws inside.



So, in essence, you are demonstrating how he has changed by showing how he hasnt?


----------



## Fullyplumped (Jan 18, 2008)

Attica said:
			
		

> Out of interest...


no, please, you first!


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Jan 18, 2008)

Attica said:
			
		

> I wasn't talking about the head part....


I know that but you sometimes give people ammunition to use against your core argument because you're a bit fast and loose with your statements, that's all.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 18, 2008)

Fullyplumped said:
			
		

> no, please, you first!



you asked a question, I asked you to explore what you meant. My answer can only come after yours....


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 18, 2008)

agricola said:
			
		

> A) It does - the supervision of life offenders is one of the last, if not the last, area where the Probation Service works as intended - or at least thats the way it seems.
> 
> B) So, in essence, you are demonstrating how he has changed by showing how he hasnt?



A) No it doesn't. The parole board is shite, along with the governors, screws, top cops, pigs, magistrates and judges. Prisons BREED crime, they are not there to STOP crime, they manage the situation rather than work for a society which could minise anti social behaviour (and I am not counting property related offences here nb 90%+).

The police get more laws every year, with more cops or virtual cops such as CSO's. They throw this ever widening net onto society and pull in EVER MORE people, this in turn doesn't help those people, who are encouraged into a life of crime, ALL THE FAULT OF THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM AND CAPITALISM... The 2 parts of the processes at work which generate what are called 'criminals'.

B) NO! I was showing how he had changed!! How he grasped the libertarian and liberation ethic of class struggle anarchism


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 18, 2008)

Paulie Tandoori said:
			
		

> I know that but you sometimes give people ammunition to use against your core argument because you're a bit fast and loose with your statements, that's all.



Indeed I do, my keyboard is my bar, I sit, drink and chat and scream as if in a pub


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Jan 18, 2008)

Attica said:
			
		

> Indeed I do, my keyboard is my bar, I sit, drink and chat and scream as if in a pub


Cheers


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 18, 2008)

Paulie Tandoori said:
			
		

> Cheers


Bottoms up


----------



## chico enrico (Jan 18, 2008)

Attica said:
			
		

> A) No it doesn't. The parole board is shite, along with the governors, screws, top cops, pigs, magistrates and judges. Prisons BREED crime, they are not there to STOP crime, they manage the situation rather than work for a society which could minise anti social behaviour (and I am not counting property related offences here nb 90%+).
> 
> The police get more laws every year, with more cops or virtual cops such as CSO's. They throw this ever widening net onto society and pull in EVER MORE people, this in turn doesn't help those people, who are encouraged into a life of crime, ALL THE FAULT OF THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM AND CAPITALISM... The 2 parts of the processes at work which generate what are called 'criminals'.
> 
> B) NO! I was showing how he had changed!! How he grasped the libertarian and liberation ethic of class struggle anarchism



i agree with what you are saying. But, i think the main reason this debate causes such polarisation amongst broadly libertarian folk is that the crime bowden was convicted of is NOT of the type that 'prisons breed' or can by any stretch of the imagination be attributed to 'THE FAULT OF THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM AND CAPITALISM'. I think there are certain crimes people do (and in many instances it is in society's benefit to) 'draw a line under' and, irrespective of the politicisation bowden has attained whilst in custody , the crime for which he received a life sentence is one of them.

If you had read Ian Brady's book 'the Gates of Janus' he too has (perhaps not surprisingly) arrived at a radical perspective re the social function and dehumanising effect prisons have on their population , but I would be very surprised to see anyone campaigning for HIS release on either humanitarian or anarchist grounds.

Also i do most certainly believe folk can - and SHOULD - 'pick and choose' what prisoners , political or otherwise, they have any compusion to support. I'm sure there are who could rightly be defined as 'political prisoners' on the Bush Wing of Maze prison but, again, I wouldn't expect many anarchists to champion their cause. 

Which is where this whole debate all falls down. It's the CRIME not the SENTENCE that abhorrs right-minded people and it really isn't doing the cause of his freedom eitherway much good playing up one whilst airbrushing the other. The bottom line being if Bowden hadn't been converted to anarchism whilst banged up would anyone here even have heard of him, let alone cared? 
Would anarchists be campaigning for his release if he had converted to Christianity or Buddhism? 

I really don't think so...

But what i do know is that they aren't doing their 'cause' any favours by banging on about this unsavoury case when , as Durutti rightly says above, there are 101 other more clear cut instances of wrongful imprisonment they could be campaigning against, if it were miscarriages of justice, rather than the promotion of their own crack-pot brand of anarchism (campaigning for the release of the Unabomber, for fucks' sake!) those involved really cared about.


----------



## untethered (Jan 18, 2008)

chico enrico said:
			
		

> Would anarchists be campaigning for his release if he had converted to Christianity or Buddhism?



I imagine if he had converted to Christianity or Buddhism and lived according to their precepts he'd be free by now without anyone having to campaign on his behalf.


----------



## cantsin (Jan 19, 2008)

untethered said:
			
		

> I imagine if he had converted to Christianity or Buddhism and lived according to their precepts he'd be free by now without anyone having to campaign on his behalf.



which is good ? or bad ? wrong, or right ?


----------



## durruti02 (Jan 19, 2008)

Attica said:
			
		

> A) No it doesn't. The parole board is shite, along with the governors, screws, top cops, pigs, magistrates and judges. Prisons BREED crime, they are not there to STOP crime, they manage the situation rather than work for a society which could minise anti social behaviour (and I am not counting property related offences here nb 90%+).
> 
> The police get more laws every year, with more cops or virtual cops such as CSO's. They throw this ever widening net onto society and pull in EVER MORE people, this in turn doesn't help those people, who are encouraged into a life of crime, ALL THE FAULT OF THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM AND CAPITALISM... The 2 parts of the processes at work which generate what are called 'criminals'.
> 
> B) NO! I was showing how he had changed!! How he grasped the libertarian and liberation ethic of class struggle anarchism



attica you missed my post 162 which is relevent to your point B)

"of course the irony is that bowden NEEDED to be locked up at that moment in time .. both for his own protection .. if he had not been he probably would have been killed sooner rather than later .. and, again ironically, as it was his doing time that 'allowed' him to become an anarchist etc"  

how else do you think he would have come to @ politics? 

and while none of us really disagrees with your A)  in an class struggle @ revolution this guy would probably have had a bullet in his head .. 

as i said before he may have served his time, has an element of being a political prisoner cos of the extra years for the 'kidnap' BUT again this whole abc bullshit is the old  black flag stuart christie hero worshipping nonsnse anarchism not real class war politics


----------



## revol68 (Jan 19, 2008)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> as i said before he may have served his time, has an element of being a political prisoner cos of the extra years for the 'kidnap' BUT again this whole abc bullshit is the old  black flag stuart christie hero worshipping nonsnse anarchism not real class war politics



eh?

Stuart Christie was an actual political prisoner though, he did time in Spanish jail, he didn't chop someone up alive in some sort of fucked up macabre mugging. Say what you want about the niavity of going off to Spain to assasinate Franco or his status in the anarchist movement but it's not really relevant to the issue of the ABC and John Bowden.

The problem with the ABC is that it has moved from it's original role of supporting Anarchist prisoners in prisons with material aid, to a quasi insurrectionist maoist prison abolition stance that is quite frankly batshit insane.


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Jan 19, 2008)

I have wondered what Stuart Christie thinks about Mr Bowden, given his role in setting up ABC and so on and afaik, still being an active participant in the organisation. Anyone know anymore?


----------



## revol68 (Jan 19, 2008)

Paulie Tandoori said:
			
		

> I have wondered what Stuart Christie thinks about Mr Bowden, given his role in setting up ABC and so on and afaik, still being an active participant in the organisation. Anyone know anymore?



eh the ABC was set up many years before Christie, back in the days of the Tsar. In truth the only thing connecting ABC's is the use of the name.


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Jan 19, 2008)

well in this country then mr pedantic. my question still stands.


----------



## chico enrico (Jan 19, 2008)

he's probably never heard of him, or at least is wise enough in his years to keep well clear of such posturing nonsense.


----------



## smokedout (Jan 19, 2008)

is it true bowden thinks drug dealers should be shot?

i've supported him up til now but that would make me swing the other way tbh


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 19, 2008)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> A) of course the irony is that bowden NEEDED to be locked up at that moment in time .. both for his own protection .. if he had not been he probhably would have been killed sooner rather than later .. and, again ironically, as it was his doing time that 'allowed' him to become an anarchist etc
> 
> B) fhe record i think he should probably be released as i doubt very much he is still a threat 'to society' .. though yes i do not see much remorse in his writings
> 
> ...



A) Perhaps so, but I am not bothered about this line of reasoning..
B) Yes, he should be released. I will tell him where all the boo boys live    (joke)

C) Good.
D) It is difficult to abstractly support all prisoners, the way the system works encourages concentration on certain individuals. Perhaps we are destined not to get him out, but at least some can say 'we gave it our best shot'. 

Not like the boo boys who can say - 'ray we helped to keep him in'. Well done chaps.

Incidentally, when you had left that interesting group in the 1990s London (& Glasgow) did a lot of good work with prisoners, at one point we had OVER 200 prisoners subscribing to the paper (taking posters/stickers, having visits too, 1 issue of the paper was banned nationally from British prisons, another had to threaten the governors with the European court ot get hold of the paper). 214 at the peak if I remember rightly (I still have many letters, including from Harry Roberts) - then the split/Bradford came along and fucked it all up.
This is the type of work you would like to see is it?


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 19, 2008)

smokedout said:
			
		

> is it true bowden thinks drug dealers should be shot?
> 
> i've supported him up til now but that would make me swing the other way tbh



I doubt it.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 19, 2008)

revol68 said:
			
		

> eh?
> 
> Stuart Christie was an actual political prisoner though, he did time in Spanish jail, he didn't chop someone up alive in some sort of fucked up macabre mugging. Say what you want about the niavity of going off to Spain to assasinate Franco or his status in the anarchist movement but it's not really relevant to the issue of the ABC and John Bowden.
> 
> The problem with the ABC is that it has moved from it's original role of supporting Anarchist prisoners in prisons with material aid, to a quasi insurrectionist maoist prison abolition stance that is quite frankly batshit insane.



You cannot label ALL the ABC groups in such a crass way as you have done - it is rude and offensive. From where are you generating your opinion? You went to talk to some ABC people did you? You asked them what they thought?


----------



## likesfish (Jan 19, 2008)

coming on to urban and claiming it was a stupid drunken murder which it wasn't it was much nastier than a fight that went wrong 

escaping and hostage taking not class war just trying to avoid the consequences


----------



## chico enrico (Jan 19, 2008)

Attica said:
			
		

> You cannot label ALL the ABC groups in such a crass way as you have done - it is rude and offensive. From where are you generating your opinion? You went to talk to some ABC people did you? You asked them what they thought?



well for a start, if i had anything to do with the ABC i would call for the immediate expulsion of this looney-tunes ABC group if it is true they are calling for support for the Unabomber.

Nothing to do with whether or not he can be 'rehabilitated' or any of that stuff i really couldn't give a fuck about either way - just noone in their right mind should have anything to do with any group that supports complete and utter nutjobs.

or who next? David Copeland? that fruit-bat who posted the letterbombs to those speed-camera monitoring offices? 

they need to get their house in order before they start telling folk how they should run society IMO.


----------



## Leonidas (Jan 19, 2008)

John Bowden? Geezer that cut off a blokes head and stuffed it in his fridge... I could have sworn Albert Meltzer founded ABC to help our lads in jail who got thrown there for anarchist activity. Unless you're using a Johnny Rottenesque definition of anarchism, decapitation and robbery don't normally pop to  mind.


----------



## Leonidas (Jan 19, 2008)

smokedout said:
			
		

> is it true bowden thinks drug dealers should be shot?
> 
> i've supported him up til now but that would make me swing the other way tbh



I think hard drug dealers and anti-social criminal scum should be treated be tough. But murdering sociopaths should get the electric chair or lethal injection or guillotine or what have ya, rather than keeping 'em alive on taxpayers hard earned cash.


----------



## Leonidas (Jan 20, 2008)

revol68 said:
			
		

> eh?
> 
> Stuart Christie was an actual political prisoner though, he did time in Spanish jail, he didn't chop someone up alive in some sort of fucked up macabre mugging. Say what you want about the niavity of going off to Spain to assasinate Franco or his status in the anarchist movement but it's not really relevant to the issue of the ABC and John Bowden.
> 
> The problem with the ABC is that it has moved from it's original role of supporting Anarchist prisoners in prisons with material aid, to a quasi insurrectionist maoist prison abolition stance that is quite frankly batshit insane.



Sensible stuff. There certainly is an ideology behind all this crazy "prison abolition" bullshit, definitely from bourgeois and lefty roots.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 21, 2008)

Leonidas said:
			
		

> Sensible stuff. There certainly is an ideology behind all this crazy "prison abolition" bullshit, definitely from bourgeois and lefty roots.



Rubbish, the roots of Abolitionism are definately anarchist. Infact, anarchism distinguishes itself from other ideologys because of its anti law/prison stance. A lot of marxists just wanted a workers state with workers laws, and keep the way society is ordered exactly the same...


----------



## cantsin (Jan 21, 2008)

Leonidas said:
			
		

> I think hard drug dealers and anti-social criminal scum should be treated be tough. But murdering sociopaths should get the electric chair or lethal injection or guillotine or what have ya, rather than keeping 'em alive on taxpayers hard earned cash.



wow,original stuff , tell us more (zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz)


----------



## Blagsta (Jan 21, 2008)

Leonidas said:
			
		

> I think hard drug dealers and anti-social criminal scum should be treated be tough. But murdering sociopaths should get the electric chair or lethal injection or guillotine or what have ya, rather than keeping 'em alive on taxpayers hard earned cash.



Have you just wandered in from the Daily Mail forums?


----------



## revol68 (Jan 21, 2008)

cantsin said:
			
		

> wow,original stuff , tell us more (zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz)




Is it true though that Bowden thinks drug dealers should be shot?


----------



## chico enrico (Jan 21, 2008)

Attica said:
			
		

> Rubbish, the roots of Abolitionism are definately anarchist. Infact, anarchism distinguishes itself from other ideologys because of its anti law/prison stance. A lot of marxists just wanted a workers state with workers laws, and keep the way society is ordered exactly the same...



yea, but the origins of 'fruitarianism' , as i recall it, also come from some anarchist cranks...

in _the here and now_, it would appear to me - and i should imagine a majority of the population so large as to render hypothetical percentages redundant - that to propogate the notion of 'abolishing prisons' is as realistic, and conducive to winning hearts & minds, as telling everyone they should live on a diet of mangoes.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 21, 2008)

chico enrico said:
			
		

> yea, but the origins of 'fruitarianism' , as i recall it, also come from some anarchist cranks...
> 
> in _the here and now_, it would appear to me - and i should imagine a majority of the population so large as to render hypothetical percentages redundant - that to propogate the notion of 'abolishing prisons' is as realistic, and conducive to winning hearts & minds, as telling everyone they should live on a diet of mangoes.



You do know that my experience isn't like this? I have talked to people about crime and they are not as stupid as you imagine... of course, it is not a political slogan to build class struggle upon, but there is no reason to assume that the politics are not necessary.


----------



## Strangeways (Jan 21, 2008)

revol68 said:
			
		

> Is it true though that Bowden thinks drug dealers should be shot?


that's a bit harsh. some, definitely. most, maybe - but all? certainly not


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 21, 2008)

Strangeways said:
			
		

> that's a bit harsh. some, definitely. most, maybe - but all? certainly not



The problem is that many millions  of people have dealt drugs- sold some on to friends etc...  SO it is shit politics.


----------



## Yossarian (Jan 21, 2008)

What, so Bowden really believes that drug dealers should all be shot?


----------



## chico enrico (Jan 21, 2008)

Attica said:
			
		

> You do know that my experience isn't like this? I have talked to people about crime and they are not as stupid as you imagine... of course, it is not a political slogan to build class struggle upon, but there is no reason to assume that the politics are not necessary.



ok, i was hoping you'd say that. i agree. 

but then i really do not understand how from that rational perspective you can possibly think anarchists mobilising around a campaign to free someone who committed a crime probably everyone on the planet other than the, ahem,  'enlightened few' in this ABC group or whatever it is, consider to be absolutely and irredeemably abhorrent, is in any way an issue of '_class _struggle' as you have stated on numerous occassions it IS.

i'm not having a go, i just genuinely cannot fathom the logic of this position.


----------



## Strangeways (Jan 21, 2008)

Attica said:
			
		

> The problem is that many millions  of people have dealt drugs- sold some on to friends etc...  SO it is shit politics.


there's clearly levels of culpability. people who deal shit to mates should certainly be up against the wall, no doubt about it.


----------



## chico enrico (Jan 21, 2008)

Strangeways said:
			
		

> there's clearly levels of culpability. people who deal shit to mates should certainly be up against the wall, no doubt about it.



how about if you keep the folk you deal to at an arms' length? thus avoiding getting too close to any of your punters so they BECOME 'mates' . Y'know...maintain an air of 'professional detachment'? 

mates only wanna weasel gear off you or get stuff on tick anyway. It's bad business sense, granted, but surely not a 'firing squad' offence?


----------



## Leonidas (Jan 21, 2008)

Attica said:
			
		

> Rubbish, the roots of Abolitionism are definately anarchist. Infact, anarchism distinguishes itself from other ideologys because of its anti law/prison stance. A lot of marxists just wanted a workers state with workers laws, and keep the way society is ordered exactly the same...



You certainly are "special" if you think that. What are we going to do with paedos, murderers, rapists, arsonists, war criminals, etc.? We certainly need laws, just laws from the bottom up, and so we'll need an apparatus for dishing out justice. I kind of favour tribunals that can pass "outlawry" on crims, like the Celts and Vikings did, and then society can do with these criminals as it sees fit (this is particularly the case with murderers and rapists etc). Lesser, but still anti-social, crimes should be punished with prison sentences, doing socially useful work, getting rehabilitated, etc. 

But no quarter to scum and no apologetics for criminals. If "chaos" is your anarchism, I'll stick with mine. No society can exist if it does not protect itself. "Strength thru unity. Freedom thru strength."


----------



## Leonidas (Jan 21, 2008)

Strangeways said:
			
		

> there's clearly levels of culpability. people who deal shit to mates should certainly be up against the wall, no doubt about it.



I don't think we're talking about some geezer getting his mate an eighth!


----------



## Blagsta (Jan 22, 2008)

Leonidas said:
			
		

> "Strength thru unity. Freedom thru strength."



That's a very quasi-fascist slogan!


----------



## the button (Jan 22, 2008)

Blagsta said:
			
		

> That's a very quasi-fascist slogan!



Indeed it is.



> A basic and simplistic summation of my political beliefs is: *strength through unity, freedom through strength*, prosperity through freedom, and peace through prosperity. Strength through unity is something that fascists would definitely agree with, and it is what the fasces represents. But this belief also fits very well within a republican/nationalist ideology, such as mine, so the fasces works well in representing either political ideological system.



ht**tp://dark*  *wolfslair.blogspot.com/2007_01_01_archive.html

(link broken)


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 22, 2008)

Leonidas said:
			
		

> You certainly are "special" if you think that. What are we going to do with paedos, murderers, rapists, arsonists, war criminals, etc.? We certainly need laws, just laws from the bottom up, and so we'll need an apparatus for dishing out justice. I kind of favour tribunals that can pass "outlawry" on crims, like the Celts and Vikings did, and then society can do with these criminals as it sees fit (this is particularly the case with murderers and rapists etc). Lesser, but still anti-social, crimes should be punished with prison sentences, doing socially useful work, getting rehabilitated, etc.
> 
> But no quarter to scum and no apologetics for criminals. If "chaos" is your anarchism, I'll stick with mine. No society can exist if it does not protect itself. "Strength thru unity. Freedom thru strength."



*Editor *- this guy is a fascist. Are you gonna ban him?


----------



## Belushi (Jan 22, 2008)

Attica said:
			
		

> *Editor *- this guy is a fascist. Are you gonna ban him?



Its usually best to pm the Ed. as he doesnt read each thread.

Agree with you about Leonidas btw


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 30, 2008)

This is a very interesting article about the origins of the Black Cross - originally envisaged as an alternative to the Red Cross in the field.

http://www.nestormakhno.info/english/mak_bl_cross.htm


----------



## chico enrico (Jan 30, 2008)

well, he'd certainly be rolling in his grave to know the organisation he founded is now full of cranks campaigning for the release of a shit-bag like the Unabomber then.


----------



## cantsin (Feb 17, 2008)

Blagsta said:


> That's a very quasi-fascist slogan!



not sure about the quasi bit


----------



## JHE (Feb 18, 2008)

Bumped, I see - but no more news.

How is John?  Who's in his fridge this week?


----------



## revol68 (Feb 18, 2008)

JHE said:


> Bumped, I see - but no more news.
> 
> How is John?  Who's in his fridge this week?



Oh for fucksake stop stoking the flames, just chill out!


----------



## the button (Feb 18, 2008)

revol68 said:


> Oh for fucksake stop stoking the flames, just chill out!



It's important to keep a cool head.

(Do I win a prize when I make that post for the fiftieth time on a Bowden thread? If so, where is it? )


----------



## chainsaw cat (Feb 18, 2008)

Blagsta said:


> That's a very quasi-fascist slogan!



I'm in with the in-crowd. I go where the in-crowd goes.


----------



## The Black Hand (Feb 25, 2008)

revol68 said:


> Oh for fucksake stop stoking the flames, just chill out!




In my best Victor Meldrew - I don't believe it


----------



## pk (Feb 26, 2008)

Sorry but anyone capable of dismembering a person with an electric carving knife whilst they were still alive and sticking their head in a fridge should remain locked up until death, if not in nick then in a secure psych ward.

I don't give a shit about his politics. Seems to me a few anarchos are crying unfair because they perceive his ongoing incarceration is down to the fact he wants to smash the state, rather than the more obvious reason i.e. he is a fucking psychopath who has no remorse whatsoever for his crime.

If he'd converted to Christianity I would feel the same way. Fuck him.


----------



## The Black Hand (Feb 26, 2008)

Yes we know what you think. Now do stay away old chap.


----------



## pk (Feb 26, 2008)

No I won't stay away. 
You bring this issue to the forums and just expect people to ignore it??

If this an example of the kind of campaigning anarchists are carrying out then it's a very strange world we live in.

If you can't debate the issues you raise here, then stick to ranting on your blog and writing crappy anarcho-fantasy novels, Ian.


----------



## Jografer (Feb 26, 2008)

pk said:


> If this an example of the kind of campaigning anarchists are carrying out then it's a very strange world we live in.



Err, no, this is just Prattica, who inhabits a whole different reality from the rest of us, so I shouldn't worry over much about this 'example'...


----------



## pk (Feb 26, 2008)

Fairy nuff.


----------



## The Black Hand (Feb 26, 2008)

Jografer said:


> Err, no, this is just Prattica, who inhabits a whole different reality from the rest of us, so I shouldn't worry over much about this 'example'...



Its just Wanker Jografer spouting shite again.  

I am saying the amount of time you lot spending having a go at Leeds ABC makes you lot look more like foolish idiots than you already are.


----------



## chico enrico (Mar 4, 2008)

http://www.abcleeds.org.uk/



they seem harmless enough to me.

notice there's another bunch of fruits with a similar name though who, amongst the top 'friends' on their myspace page have some character who torched three cars in a parking lot as a protest against global warming.

seems a bit wacky to me


----------



## The Black Hand (Mar 4, 2008)

Jografer said:


> Err, no, this is just Prattica, who inhabits a whole different reality from the rest of us, so I shouldn't worry over much about this 'example'...


I am not involved with Leeds ABC btw, but I can recognise an attack on the movement, and the ABC in particular by the state when I see it - unlike others.


----------



## Jografer (Mar 4, 2008)

Attica said:


> I am not involved with Leeds ABC btw, but I can recognise an attack on the movement, and the ABC in particular by the state when I see it - unlike others.



Impressive perception there then, as I'd never heard of leeds ABC until you mentioned them....


----------



## chico enrico (Mar 4, 2008)

but you see, that's just the problem with the 'movement' - it's in bed with nut-jobs who are campaigning for the release of the unabomber and some chap who lopped a tramps head off to keep beside the dairy-lea. kick the cranks into touch and you'll have a much better chance of getting your ideas across surely?


----------



## GarfieldLeChat (Mar 4, 2008)

Attica said:


> I am not involved with Leeds ABC btw, but I can recognise an attack on the movement, and the ABC in particular by the state when I see it - unlike others.



how is not releasing someone on parole for a murder they haven't shown remorse for an attack on any movement the motivation alone for JB's lock down wasn't political he wasn't into poltics at the time.  At the time of sentencing he wasn't into politics.  He has however since that time associated with or joined a group know for their actions and the acceptable level of violence they are preparred to allow in smashing the state, if the judgement was originally about his level of violence do you think that the state would be right in considering that consorting violence some 25 years afterwards shows a distinct lack of change in the man's moral fiber...


----------



## The Black Hand (Mar 4, 2008)

Jografer said:


> Impressive perception there then, as I'd never heard of leeds ABC until you mentioned them....



You know fek all about this case then. as per.


----------



## The Black Hand (Mar 5, 2008)

chico enrico said:


> but you see, that's just the problem with the 'movement' - it's in bed with nut-jobs who are campaigning for the release of the unabomber and some chap who lopped a tramps head off to keep beside the dairy-lea. kick the cranks into touch and you'll have a much better chance of getting your ideas across surely?



I don't think they are cranks though. Certainly one of the guys involved is actually quite respectable/respected but I'll say no more. They do a lot of anti fascist work too. I think there are a lot of people over reacting - its not a massive case, it cannot be taken as indicative of anything, so to get all drama queening online about it doesn't help anything. I still think you'd all be better spending your time doing something else...


----------



## JHE (Mar 5, 2008)

*The last man who upset John Bowden comments:*






_"John's a good bloke, really. OK, he's got a bit of a temper.  He's got some funny habits, too.  Not to everyone's taste.  After a few beers he might carve you up, but I don't bear a grudge."_


----------



## The Black Hand (Mar 5, 2008)

"I don't think they are cranks though. Certainly one of the guys involved is actually quite respectable/respected but I'll say no more. They do a lot of anti fascist work too. I think there are a lot of people over reacting - its not a massive case, it cannot be taken as indicative of anything..."


----------



## durruti02 (Mar 5, 2008)

Attica said:


> "I don't think they are cranks though. Certainly one of the guys involved is actually quite respectable/respected but I'll say no more. They do a lot of anti fascist work too. I think there are a lot of people over reacting - its not a massive case, it cannot be taken as indicative of anything..."



attica you are digging yourself deeper  ( you not may know all what you are talking about )

and this / movement stuff you talk of is crap .. these anarchist imho care more about themselves and their 'lifestyle' that the real world who generally they regard with contempt


----------



## Frampton (Mar 5, 2008)

Attica,
Your perseverence is to be applauded. It must seem at times that you are constantly writing letters to the Daily Mail or trying to engage a group of beery screws when they've settled down for a few jars after a heavy shift on D Wing. The latent sadism being projected onto Bowden is sometimes overpowering.

Some points based upon my own eperience of being banged up and (latterly) of working with cons.

1. The majority of long-term prisoners sink into a sort of dulled acceptance. Others find comfort in religion, meditation, education, body building. Don't knock it. The first lesson of survival is to know what's happening to you. For me, Anarchism enabled me to understand how power over others shaped my days. I've stuck with that ever since.

2. Solitary. I spent a short time in solitary. To my lasting shame I did not respond to it heroically. Not for nothing is solitary (and sleep deprivation - screws banging on your door every half hour) used as a precursor to interrogation. It is massively effective. For guys like Bowden - who have completed extended periods in solitary - I would tread carefully around his words and perhaps have the grace to understand him.

3. The run-up to parole is a game. It's gotten worse over the years. Those involved in assessment are in fear of not covering their arse. Risk, managerial and control factors rule the roost. Therein I place a lot of trust in the comrades who actually know Bowden.

4. If you ask me how a free society would deal with Bowden's atrocity then they would probably string him up. In truth, I have no idea how free men and free women will conduct themselves.

5. If only Bowden had signed up with some black boot user group. There are many today sipping G+T's in the British Legion who committed atrocities OVER AND ABOVE what was required for the defence of the realm: Those who abused captives or unnecessarily hose-piped a family home with a machine gun or kicked to death hooded suspects. You can get medals for this.

6. There's a small group of us starting up a series of National Anarchist seminars. If he is willing we'd like to invite Bowden to lead a future seminar. Perhaps some posters would come along and enter into a dialogue with the guy.

Regards


----------



## The Black Hand (Mar 5, 2008)

durruti02 said:


> attica you are digging yourself deeper  ( you not may know all what you are talking about )
> 
> and this / movement stuff you talk of is crap .. these anarchist imho care more about themselves and their 'lifestyle' that the real world who generally they regard with contempt



People really should be able to recognise an attacking campaign and struggles, which are meant to change the world, and those defensive campaigns which are not. Here, good people have been involved with supporting Bowden and are being politically attacked by the state. Funnily enough, the state doesn't really give a toss about the original offence given it was so very long ago, and some people are trying to make an issue where the public did not. 

If the complaints HAD come from the public I would have said that they had more relevance, but instead they have come from web saddo's and a few who are trying to create 'a better anarchist movement' (who I do have some time for). These endless jibes do us no good, we will never agree, and so there should be room for sensible discussion rather than web based hyperbole and simplistic rhetorical hysteria which would be more at home in the Daily mail. All this is a sign of movement weakness rather than strength, and this cannot be solved on line.


----------



## The Black Hand (Mar 5, 2008)

Frampton said:


> Attica,
> Your perseverence is to be applauded. It must seem at times that you are constantly writing letters to the Daily Mail or trying to engage a group of beery screws when they've settled down for a few jars after a heavy shift on D Wing. The latent sadism being projected onto Bowden is sometimes overpowering.
> 
> Some points based upon my own experience of being banged up and (latterly) of working with cons.
> ...



You have clearly a lot to say on this issue, and I welcome such positive contributions, there is a lot of sensible politics here. Unlike every other negative contributor to the thread, or those who know about it, are concerned with it, and even so avoid it like Paul Marsh cos it is convenient for them to do so rather than good politics.


----------



## untethered (Mar 5, 2008)

Frampton said:


> There's a small group of us starting up a series of National Anarchist seminars. If he is willing we'd like to invite Bowden to lead a future seminar.



How far in the future did you have in mind?


----------



## revol68 (Mar 5, 2008)

Attica said:


> You have clearly a lot to say on this issue, and I welcome such positive contributions, there is a lot of sensible politics here. Unlike every other negative contributor to the thread, or those who know about it, are concerned with it, and even so avoid it like Paul Marsh cos it is convenient for them to do so rather than good politics.



Attica's only friend is a National Anarchist, bless.


----------



## The Black Hand (Mar 5, 2008)

revol68 said:


> Attica's only friend is a National Anarchist, bless.


Really. What does that mean?

BTW he's not my friend, I have judged his post on the quality of what he had to say on the issue, and quality has been soerly lacking. I have plenty of friends who I value already thanks.


----------



## Jografer (Mar 5, 2008)

revol68 said:


> Attica's only friend is a National Anarchist, bless.



Is this like national socialism, except with fridges rather than ovens.....


----------



## revol68 (Mar 5, 2008)

Attica said:


> Really. What does that mean?
> 
> BTW he's not my friend, I have judged his post on the quality of what he had to say on the issue, and quality has been soerly lacking. I have plenty of friends who I value already thanks.



National Anarchists are fash Attica, like Nationalist Socialist but 'anarchist'.

It should be no surprise that they would want to recruit from the lumpen dregs of society, their thicko violence loving free corps has to come from somewhere.


----------



## chico enrico (Mar 5, 2008)

Attica said:


> You have clearly a lot to say on this issue, and I welcome such positive contributions,



if my frampton is indeed a 'national Anarchist' (Troy Southgate/third Position et al) i'm sure he may equally have 'a lot' to say on 'the Jewish Question' 

are you going to start eulogising Mussolini's ideas on collectivisation now? 

mate, this is just nuts and illustrates EXACTLY what i and many others are saying about this craziness : should you actually even want to (and i imagine by your doggedness you do) you and your 'movement' will NEVER get anywhere (the first task of which is to get the general public sympathetic to your ideas) as long as you are in bed with nazis, tramp decapitators, eco nuts and the sort of fruitbats who have plagued most groups for social change since time immorial. the only way you will ever get anywhere is to give all the cat-stranglers and cultists the big FUCK OFF.



Attica said:


> *and even so avoid it like Paul Marsh cos it is convenient for them to do so rather than good politics*.



in which case he is absolutely correct. it *IS* 'good politics' to avoid tarnishing the name of any group (i believe i he is london CW?) with any defence campaigns for a Jeffrey dahmer with a black flag or a bunch of loons in leeds who are campaigning for the release of the fucking unabomber who plotted to blow up a fucking plane full of holidaymakers!


----------



## The Black Hand (Mar 5, 2008)

chico enrico said:


> in which case he is absolutely correct. it *IS* 'good politics' to avoid tarnishing the name of any group (i believe i he is london CW?) with any defence campaigns for a Jeffrey dahmer with a black flag or a bunch of loons in leeds who are campaigning for the release of the fucking unabomber who plotted to blow up a fucking plane full of holidaymakers!



But he's already implicated in it up to his neck (watch out)...


----------



## The Black Hand (Mar 5, 2008)

revol68 said:


> National Anarchists are fash Attica, like Nationalist Socialist but 'anarchist'.
> 
> It should be no surprise that they would want to recruit from the lumpen dregs of society, their thicko violence loving free corps has to come from somewhere.



So what proof do you have for this?


----------



## The Black Hand (Mar 5, 2008)

revol68 said:


> National Anarchists are fash Attica, like Nationalist Socialist but 'anarchist'.
> 
> It should be no surprise that they would want to recruit from the lumpen dregs of society, their thicko violence loving free corps has to come from somewhere.



When he wrote 'National Anarchist seminars', I thought this was they encouraged attendance from around the country. Are you saying that this is a group called 'National Anarchist?'. Of course this is an oversight because it is a very unknown group and it didn't register in my memory as something to watch out for.


----------



## Frampton (Mar 5, 2008)

Gosh! One slip up and you're dead!

By "national" I meant "countrywide"

If one wanted to extract fascism from the term "national anarchist seminars" then I suppose one could. It would take a particular bent of mind though. But there you go. In future I'll use "seminars with a welcome for all anarchists wherever you live".

Regards


----------



## chico enrico (Mar 5, 2008)

Attica said:


> When he wrote 'National Anarchist seminars', I thought this was they encouraged attendance from around the country. Are you saying that this is a group called 'National Anarchist?'. Of course this is an oversight because it is a very unknown group and it didn't register in my memory as something to watch out for.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_anarchists

actually, they're larger than you'd think. lots of the sort of 35 year old virgins who are into Death In June and all that wank are into them.


----------



## durruti02 (Mar 5, 2008)

Attica said:


> People really should be able to recognise an attacking campaign and struggles, which are meant to change the world, and those defensive campaigns which are not. Here, good people have been involved with supporting Bowden and are being politically attacked by the state. Funnily enough, the state doesn't really give a toss about the original offence given it was so very long ago, and some people are trying to make an issue where the public did not.
> 
> If the complaints HAD come from the public I would have said that they had more relevance, but instead they have come from web saddo's and a few who are trying to create 'a better anarchist movement' (who I do have some time for). These endless jibes do us no good, we will never agree, and so there should be room for sensible discussion rather than web based hyperbole and simplistic rhetorical hysteria which would be more at home in the Daily mail. All this is a sign of movement weakness rather than strength, and this cannot be solved on line.



 it is you who is confusing them .. i absolutely accept the need for defensive support for prisoners ( and i know a few people like haven etc who did sterling work in this ) .. what gets confused is when this defensive campaiging concentrates on so called political prisoners and then becomes the politics of the movement and the actions themselves become almost acts of class struggle and those who did the stupid things become the @ sages .. 

this is not real politics that can change anything mate


----------



## The Black Hand (Mar 12, 2008)

*Good article by John*

From the No More Prisons website;

http://www.alternatives2prison.ik.com/p_Child_Abuse_-_The_British_States_Continued_Guilt.ikml

Britain has a long and pernicious history of abusing and brutalizing working class children confined to state institutions, so it was hardly surprising recently when a statutory instrument amending the rules governing the treatment of children in "secure training centres" legitimized the use of so-called "physical control in care restraint techniques", one of which authorized staff to inflict blows to the face of children, euphemistically called the "nose distraction technique".

Of course the use of overt physical violence to control socially marginalized and powerless children in penal-type institutions is nothing new and for decades Borstals and Detention Centres operated regimes that were intrinsically brutal and designed to teach a "tough lesson" based on fear and intimidation. The death of a child in the notorious Reading Detention Centre in the late sixties partially exposed the regime of terror that operated in such places, although the state was always careful to maintain the illusion that it neither sanctioned or created the violence routinely inflicted on children in such custodial settings. More recently the extraordinarily high incidence of suicides, self-harm and death in suspicious circumstances of children in Feltham Remand Centre suggest that intimidation and brutality remain the standard methods by which children in custody are treated and controlled.

Thirty children have died in penal custody since 1990, the youngest, Adam Rickwood, was just 14 years old. Just over a third of boys and girls in custody have felt unsafe at some time. One in ten boys and girls in prison say they have been hit, kicked or assaulted by a member of staff.

Traditionally the state has never publicly admitted or condoned the deliberate use of violence against children in custody, which is why the statute authorizing the use of overt brutality in subduing "disruptive" children inmates was so disquieting and shocking. In fact, so horrific was the scenario of state-sanctioned thugs physically brutalizing children in a prison setting that the more liberal elements in the government in the form of the Parliamentary Joint committee On Human Rights announced that it would be reviewing the use of such "restraint" methods in children's' prisons, claiming that such methods had been introduced without any reference to human rights legislation. Subsequently children's minister Beverley Hughes announced that she was suspending the methods pending a report by a panel of medical experts. Her concern was obviously not based on any moral reservations about beating up children in prison, but simply a worry about possible legal consequences.

In October of 2007 the Prison Officers Association offered it's own enlightened contribution to the issue of controlling disturbed and already brutalized children in jail by calling for a change in the rules that would allow prison staff to be able to use batons on children as young as 15.

The psychological damage inflicted on children in custody is well-researched and well known; 85 per cent of prisoners in youth custody institutions show signs of personality disorder, with 10 per cent exhibiting signs of severe psychotic illness such as schizophrenia. Into this mix of mental suffering and pain the state wants to throw some good old fashioned physical brutality. This by any definition is child abuse and it is systemic and organized, and thousands of working class children are irreparably damaged by it.

The state's assault on the rights and freedoms of working class children under New Labour has been sweeping and vicious, and the number of 15 to 17 years olds in prison custody has increased by 86 per cent since Labour took office. In tandem with this mass criminalization of already socially disadvantaged children is the creation of prison regimes openly designed to brutalize them even more.

The media and tabloid press, usually very keen to whip up hysteria and a climate of hatred against child abusers when campaigning for tougher laws, have remained consistently quiet about the abuse of children in closed institutions, creating a silence and invisibility around these children that increases their vulnerability and ill-treatment. Each year over 70,000 children are dealt with through the criminal justice system and around 12,000 of them are incarcerated in penal-type institutions that are no more than training grounds for the adult long-term prison system. This represents the wholesale destruction of young working class lives in the interests of a system that is itself inherently anti-social and predatory towards the poor and powerless.

The imprisonment of children is barbaric and one of the worst forms of state cruelty, and unless we speak out and campaign against it we are all in some way complicit in it.


----------



## The Black Hand (Mar 12, 2008)

Attica said:


> So what proof do you have for this?



Still waiting.


----------



## Blagsta (Mar 12, 2008)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National-Anarchism


----------



## The Black Hand (Mar 13, 2008)

Blagsta said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National-Anarchism


That does not prove anything - revols accusation was that Frampton WAS a national anarchist. That is what I asked for.


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## revol68 (Mar 13, 2008)

Attica said:


> That does not prove anything - revols accusation was that Frampton WAS a national anarchist. That is what I asked for.



he said he was organising National (note the capitalisation) Anarchist meetings, plus there has been a couple of them posting on Libcom of late.


----------



## The Black Hand (Mar 13, 2008)

revol68 said:


> he said he was organising National (note the capitalisation) Anarchist meetings, plus there has been a couple of them posting on Libcom of late.



That's tenuous. *It is* associational evidence, but we need more than that, I suggest direct linking proof is necessary.


----------



## revol68 (Mar 13, 2008)

Attica said:


> That's tenuous. *It is* associational evidence, but we need more than that, I suggest direct linking proof is necessary.



Well I said he was a National Anarchist because he said he was organising National Anarchist meetings, if however he claims it was a mistake and he simply meant 'nationwide' anarchist meetings then fair enough.

I still think it dodgy though.


----------



## The Black Hand (Mar 13, 2008)

revol68 said:


> Well I said he was a National Anarchist because he said he was organising National Anarchist meetings, if however he claims it was a mistake and he simply meant 'nationwide' anarchist meetings then fair enough.
> 
> I still think it dodgy though.



Perhaps the choice of words wasn't the best. Did you get my pm?


----------



## untethered (Mar 13, 2008)

Attica said:


> Perhaps the choice of words wasn't the best. Did you get my pm?



What's the latest news? Is he still in jail for murder and kidnapping?


----------



## The Black Hand (Mar 13, 2008)

untethered said:


> What's the latest news? Is he still in jail for murder and kidnapping?



You haven't been reading ANY of the latest posts so what you have said is ignorant of the facts. Please read and you'll discover we were talking about something else.


----------



## untethered (Mar 13, 2008)

Attica said:


> You haven't been reading ANY of the latest posts so what you have said is ignorant of the facts. Please read and you'll discover we were talking about something else.



I'm more than happy for you to go off on tangents with your comrades.

However, I'm here to keep up with the latest news about John Bowden, which after all is the set topic of the thread.

Specifically, I'd like to be reassured that the public is still protected from this psychopathic maniac. I'm sure I'm not alone in that.

So, you're his chum. Is he in or out?


----------



## The Black Hand (Mar 13, 2008)

untethered said:


> I'm more than happy for you to go off on tangents with your comrades.
> 
> However, I'm here to keep up with the latest news about John Bowden, which after all is the set topic of the thread.
> 
> ...



I was enjoying the thread until you showed up. I am not Johns chum, i do not know him, and you will be getting no more from me, go back to your Oxbridge halls and self indulge/pleasure some more there's a good chap.


----------



## Fullyplumped (Apr 18, 2008)

A month on... anything new? The myspace page is not saying. Is he still in jail for murder and kidnapping?


----------



## The Black Hand (May 17, 2008)

Fullyplumped said:


> A month on... anything new? The myspace page is not saying. Is he still in jail for murder and kidnapping?



Ohhhh look at this - he's coming to get all you knobheads


http://www.itv.com/News/Articles/Escaped-killer-on-the-run-524358162.html


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## Fullyplumped (May 17, 2008)

Attica said:


> Ohhhh look at this - he's coming to get all you knobheads



It's in the Record.  

_A SADISTIC killer who cut up a man with a saw while he was alive is on the run after being allowed to go shopping.

John "Ginger" Bowden, 51, was allowed the trip as part of his training for freedom - despite showing traces of cocaine in a prison drugs test.

And the decision by the killer - who was given a life sentence in 1982 - to go on the run has puzzled prison insiders, as he was due to go before a parole hearing which could have won him freedom in just a few days.​_I imagine he's looking for a couch for the night. And perhaps a fridge. Any offers?


----------



## The Black Hand (May 17, 2008)

Anarcho's are well known for refusing space to 'Gingers'/unfashionable types in their movement.


----------



## revol68 (May 20, 2008)

Attica said:


> Anarcho's are well known for refusing space to 'Gingers'/unfashionable types in their movement.



New ABC prison abolition t shirts available.


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## Jografer (May 20, 2008)

Attica said:


> Ohhhh look at this - he's coming to get all you knobheads
> 
> 
> http://www.itv.com/News/Articles/Escaped-killer-on-the-run-524358162.html



... that's fine, he's screwed his parole chances.....


----------



## The Black Hand (May 20, 2008)

revol68 said:


> New ABC prison abolition t shirts available.



You support that Swiss peedo if you want - do not slander the ABC.


----------



## The Black Hand (May 20, 2008)

Jografer said:


> ... that's fine, he's screwed his parole chances.....



I'm hoping he completes his mission to get you wallies


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## revol68 (May 20, 2008)

Attica said:


> You support that Swiss peedo if you want - do not slander the ABC.



A) he was Austrian B) how is John Bowden anymore warranting of support, Fritzl didn't actualy chop anyone up alive.


----------



## The Black Hand (May 20, 2008)

revol68 said:


> A) he was Austrian B) how is John Bowden anymore warranting of support, Fritzl didn't actualy chop anyone up alive.



you support the Austrian peedo if you want - do not slander the ABC.


----------



## Belushi (May 20, 2008)

Attica said:


> you support the Austrian peedo if you want - do not slander the ABC.



So what would the ABC position be if Fritzl decided to become an anarchist?


----------



## Yossarian (May 20, 2008)

Belushi said:


> So what would the ABC position be if Fritzl decided to become an anarchist?



"In a way, capitalism has us all locked in a cellar. The hysterical denunciation of Fritzl's mistake-which he regrets-only serves to  highlight the hypocrisy inherent in the blah blah..."


----------



## revol68 (May 20, 2008)

Yossarian said:


> "In a way, capitalism has us all locked in a cellar. The hysterical denunciation of Fritzl's mistake-which he regrets-only serves to  highlight the hypocrisy inherent in the blah blah..."


----------



## The Black Hand (May 20, 2008)

Belushi said:


> So what would the ABC position be if Fritzl decided to become an anarchist?



You lot of vegetables had better do some serious class struggle for a change rather than this i(s)nane angst - get a life/grip


----------



## Belushi (May 20, 2008)

Attica said:


> You lot of vegetables had better do some serious class struggle for a change rather than this i(s)nane angst - get a life/grip



Isnt this the point where you usually tell me that my experiences as a working class person are wrong and recommend a book for me to read to learn how to be really working class?


----------



## Jografer (May 20, 2008)

Attica said:


> I'm hoping he completes his mission to get you wallies



... so we've got to keep our eyes open for a nutter with a Magimix then....


----------



## Belushi (May 20, 2008)

Jografer said:


> ... so we've got to keep our eyes open for a nutter with a Magimix then....



I suspect the only people Bowden is likely to go after are Attica and his ilk who have done so much to ensure he never gets parole.


----------



## chico enrico (May 20, 2008)

Attica said:


> You support that Swiss peedo if you want - do not slander the ABC.



but don't the ABC support the Unabomber? if so - _*FUCK THEM.*_


----------



## The Black Hand (May 20, 2008)

Belushi said:


> Isnt this the point where you usually tell me that my experiences as a working class person are wrong and recommend a book for me to read to learn how to be really working class?



Can do.


----------



## The Black Hand (May 20, 2008)

chico enrico said:


> but don't the ABC support the Unabomber? if so - _*FUCK THEM.*_



The ABC is not an homogenous group, it is a loose federation of local groups who do their own thing. To talk of the 'ABC' thus is mistaken.


----------



## d.a.s.h (May 20, 2008)

Fullyplumped said:


> _A SADISTIC killer who cut up a man with a saw while he was alive is on the run after being allowed to go shopping.
> 
> John "Ginger" Bowden, 51, was allowed the trip as part of his training for freedom - despite showing traces of cocaine in a prison drugs test.​_



Didn't Bowden scald his victim with boiling hot water in the bath as well?

The poster named 'lobster' ought to be worried with Bowden on the loose.


----------



## chico enrico (May 20, 2008)

Attica said:


> The ABC is not an homogenous group, it is a loose federation of local groups who do their own thing. To talk of the 'ABC' thus is mistaken.



So, can anyone set up an ABC group? Can I set one up which supports and campaigns for the release of Peter Sutcliffe, David Copeland, Jeremy Bamber etc? Surely, i'd only be "_doing my own thing"_


----------



## The Black Hand (May 20, 2008)

chico enrico said:


> So, can anyone set up an ABC group? Can I set one up which supports and campaigns for the release of Peter Sutcliffe, David Copeland, Jeremy Bamber etc? Surely, i'd only be "_doing my own thing"_



that would be the type of thing the state would do don't you think?


----------



## chico enrico (May 20, 2008)

Attica said:


> that would be the type of thing the state would do don't you think?





to be fair, i _really don't think_ they would.

Unless, of course you mean "The Secret State" in which case i , again, don't think they'd bother when genuine ABC groups appear to be campaigning for the release of folk who keep tramps heads beside the dairy-lea, attempt to bomb planes full of holiday-makers or petrol bomb a load of cars; "in protest against C02 emissions" .....


----------



## The Black Hand (May 20, 2008)

chico enrico said:


> to be fair, i _really don't think_ they would.
> 
> Unless, of course you mean "The Secret State" in which case i , again, don't think they'd bother when genuine ABC groups appear to be campaigning for the release of folk who keep tramps heads beside the dairy-lea, attempt to bomb planes full of holiday-makers or petrol bomb a load of cars; "in protest against C02 emissions" .....


Yes i meant the secret state, but you are right. The movement/ABC are so very far away from being important.


----------



## revol68 (May 20, 2008)

Attica said:


> The ABC is not an homogenous group, it is a loose federation of local groups who do their own thing. To talk of the 'ABC' thus is mistaken.



and as thus to talk of someone 'slandering the ABC' as you just did is a wee bit daft, no?


----------



## The Black Hand (May 20, 2008)

revol68 said:


> and as thus to talk of someone 'slandering the ABC' as you just did is a wee bit daft, no?



no.


----------



## revol68 (May 20, 2008)

Attica said:


> no.



The Special [needs] One, indeed.


----------



## The Black Hand (May 20, 2008)

revol68 said:


> The Special [needs] One, indeed.



Very poor revol - are you coming over for the bookfair this year?


----------



## durruti02 (May 20, 2008)

Yossarian said:


> "In a way, capitalism has us all locked in a cellar. The hysterical denunciation of Fritzl's mistake-which he regrets-only serves to  highlight the hypocrisy inherent in the blah blah..."


----------



## Taxamo Welf (May 21, 2008)

Belushi said:


> Isnt this the point where you usually tell me that my experiences as a working class person are wrong and recommend a book for me to read to learn how to be really working class?



this post is made of win and god


----------



## Taxamo Welf (May 21, 2008)

Attica said:


> The ABC is not an homogenous group, it is a loose federation of local groups who do their own thing. To talk of the 'ABC' thus is mistaken.



then how can they be slandered? Hung by your own logic there old bean.

edit: drat, the spastic leprechaun got there first.


----------



## Taxamo Welf (May 21, 2008)

serious question: why would bowden have run? It must have been a matter of months before he had to be let out, nutter christian prison chief or no. This whole campaign started cos he had completed his sentence and was being held back arbitarily: that could have lasted maybe what, some months, they couldn't resentence him for another 5 years.


----------



## Jean-Luc (May 22, 2008)

It is interesting to speculate whether Leeds ABC helped him and have now got him out of the country via some clandestine underground network to somewhere where anarchists (and brutal murderers) are safe from extradiction. Or whether he acted under the influence of cocaine which the authorities are letting be known was found in him (even though he always said he was against drug-taking). Or perhaps he's gone to join the Real IRA or some other dissident republican group. They like brutal murderers.


----------



## Divisive Cotton (May 22, 2008)

John Bowden is _coming to get you all._..


----------



## The Black Hand (May 22, 2008)

Taxamo Welf said:


> then how can they be slandered? Hung by your own logic there old bean.
> 
> edit: drat, the spastic leprechaun got there first.



No old chap. The ABC is internationally known, and thus its reputation is bigger than it actually is. You can slander this reputation which is what happened and what I was referring to.

You here, and other 'critics' are just empiricists (not Marxists) who use sad linear logic. They had better give it up pronto


----------



## Frampton (May 22, 2008)

*umm*



Jean-Luc said:


> It is interesting to speculate whether Leeds ABC helped him and have now got him out of the country via some clandestine underground network to somewhere where anarchists (and brutal murderers) are safe from extradiction. Or whether he acted under the influence of cocaine which the authorities are letting be known was found in him (even though he always said he was against drug-taking). Or perhaps he's gone to join the Real IRA or some other dissident republican group. They like brutal murderers.



It's even more interesting to speculate how the military helps it's members who are guilty of atrocities. They often get spirited away and are offered nightly doses of alcohol in various British Legion Clubs around the country. They even get medals and are paraded before the public. They like brutal murderers.


----------



## chico enrico (May 22, 2008)

Frampton said:


> It's even more interesting to speculate how the military helps it's members who are guilty of atrocities. They often get spirited away and are offered nightly doses of alcohol in various British Legion Clubs around the country. They even get medals and are paraded before the public. They like brutal murderers.



you're quite young, aren't you?


----------



## JHE (May 22, 2008)

Taxamo Welf said:


> serious question: why would bowden have run? It must have been a matter of months before he had to be let out, nutter christian prison chief or no. This whole campaign started cos he had completed his sentence and was being held back arbitarily: that could have lasted maybe what, some months, they couldn't resentence him for another 5 years.



It is utter nonsense to claim that he had completed his sentence.  He was given a life sentence.  It will be complete only when he dies.

However, your question about _why_ Bowden did a runner is an interesting one.  It could just have been an impulsive action - 'Aggghhhh, I can't take any more imprisonment!'

Perhaps some of Bowden's loyal anachowotsit supporters have received a communiqué from the great man and can let us know.

If the escape is a case of impetuosity, we'll just have to hope that the still-impetuous Mr Bowden doesn't get the urge to scald, skin, butcher or behead anyone.  It could get messy.


----------



## The Black Hand (May 22, 2008)

chico enrico said:


> you're quite young, aren't you?



Thanks


----------



## Frampton (May 23, 2008)

*Oi!*



Attica said:


> Thanks



Bugger off Attica. He's talking about ME. Get your own fan club!


----------



## newbie (May 24, 2008)

the South London Press is warning the people of Camberwell he's escaped and may have returned to his old haunts.


----------



## JHE (May 24, 2008)

Apparently, the last time he escaped he went to Germany from where he sent taunting letters to the police in Britain.


----------



## Jean-Luc (May 24, 2008)

newbie said:


> the South London Press is warning the people of Camberwell he's escaped and may have returned to his old haunts.


As usual that crappy paper the South London Press gets it all wrong, especially the name of the bloke who was cut up alive. The story in the Southwark News is much better and more informative: http://www.southwarknews.co.uk/00,news,10543,185,00.htm
I hope the Leeds ABC are happy for the image they have given of "anarchism". I'm no sure other anarchists will be though.


----------



## biff curtains (May 27, 2008)

> We are all still suffering 28 years on and as far as we are concerned he killed two people - he killed Donald and he *killed his sister, who sat through his trial - the stress of which bought on her cancer* which killed her.



John Bowden has the power to give people cancer???!!!!


----------



## durruti02 (May 28, 2008)

biff curtains said:


> John Bowden has the power to give people cancer???!!!!



maybe not him but i know others where their cancer was not created by but brought on and exacerbated by trauma .. it is not unusual, sadly  and having your brother dismembered alive could be the kinda thing that would do it .. that memory ain't leaving is it ..


----------



## Mr. Jolly (May 29, 2008)

If his parole was coming up, maybe he did it so when caught it would fuck it up? Some old timers cannot cope with the outside world. Dunno just an idea...


----------



## JHE (May 29, 2008)

Mr. Jolly said:


> If his parole was coming up, maybe he did it so when caught it would fuck it up? Some old timers cannot cope with the outside world. Dunno just an idea...



Yeah, perhaps he couldn't face the rest of his life outside, being continually feted by weirdo anarchowotsits.  He's feted by them while he's inside, too, but at least he doesn't have to meet the twits.


----------



## chico enrico (May 29, 2008)

JHE said:


> Yeah, perhaps he couldn't face the rest of his life outside, being continually feted by weirdo anarchowotsits.  He's feted by them while he's inside, too, but at least he doesn't have to meet the twits.



or maybe they were coming to him and this leeds ABC lot had one of their 'adopt a prisoner' befriending days coming up? Like having a Tamogochi but _harder_. That'd drive anyone over the wall.


----------



## Taxamo Welf (May 30, 2008)

JHE said:


> It is utter nonsense to claim that he had completed his sentence.  He was given a life sentence.  It will be complete only when he dies.



what? No it won't! a life sentence can be fifteen bloody years, sometimes even less.

It is a given that bowden had served his orginal sentence i think.


----------



## Taxamo Welf (May 30, 2008)

JHE said:


> Yeah, perhaps he couldn't face the rest of his life outside, being continually feted by weirdo anarchowotsits.  He's feted by them while he's inside, too, but at least he doesn't have to meet the twits.



technical point: yes, he has, even in prison. He met his main advocate from the anarcho-wotsit movement whilst inside. That is essentiually why there is a specific campaign around him.


----------



## JHE (May 30, 2008)

Taxamo Welf said:


> what? No it won't! a life sentence can be fifteen bloody years, sometimes even less.
> 
> It is a given that bowden had served his orginal sentence i think.



It is 'a given'?  Don't such an arse!

Look, Welf, his sentence - like all sentences for murder (in this country) - is a LIFE SENTENCE.  It will finish when he dies.

He may now have served a little longer than his tariff.  The tariff is NOT some period of time after which he is entitled to be freed.  It is a period of time he must serve before he can be considered for parole.  It is a MINIMUM, not a maximum.  

If and when he is ever freed, his sentence will not be over.  His freedom will be on licence, under the supervision of the Probation Service.  A person on licence can be put back in prison at the drop of a hat.

Bowden has not been granted parole - and I would hope and expect that, if and when the parole board considers his case, they will take into account the fact that he has broken the law since his conviction (eg, he has escaped twice).

What's more, it is not at all clear that Bowden understands how horrific the murder was or that he will never behave like that again.  He seems to feel sorry for himself, rather than for others - but maybe that's more the impression given by his anarchowotsit supporters.  If it is not clear to the parole board that he is reformed, he should NOT be allowed out on licence.


----------



## Taxamo Welf (Jun 1, 2008)

JHE said:


> It is 'a given'?  Don't such an arse!


seriously now, i'm not fucking about, maybe i genuinely misunderstand the law. Bare with;



> Look, Welf, his sentence - like all sentences for murder (in this country) - is a LIFE SENTENCE.  It will finish when he dies.


I thought life was just the name and it depends what the judge gives you? They can recommend you are never released but generally give between 15 and 30 years. Which is why the Right talk about 'life should mean life'. Cos it doesn't, does it?



> He may now have served a little longer than his tariff.  The tariff is NOT some period of time after which he is entitled to be freed.  It is a period of time he must serve before he can be considered for parole.  It is a MINIMUM, not a maximum.


so? Its been served. I don't actually see... Maybe i do. Are you saying a 'life' term can be extended indefinitely? That is pretty surprising. I mean really really evil cunts are let out in their 90's and so on. Who got released this week? some famous murderer i think....?



> If and when he is ever freed, his sentence will not be over.  His freedom will be on licence, under the supervision of the Probation Service.  A person on licence can be put back in prison at the drop of a hat.


i did not know that.


----------



## Fullyplumped (Jun 1, 2008)

Taxamo Welf said:


> seriously now, i'm not fucking about, maybe i genuinely misunderstand the law. Bare with;
> 
> I thought life was just the name and it depends what the judge gives you? They can recommend you are never released but generally give between 15 and 30 years. Which is why the Right talk about 'life should mean life'. Cos it doesn't, does it?
> 
> ...


A life sentence is exactly that. A person sentenced to life imprisonment may be released on licence, which means that the authorities have discretion to return him on her to prison at any time after release.


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Jun 1, 2008)

Taxamo Welf said:


> what? No it won't! a life sentence can be fifteen bloody years, sometimes even less.
> 
> It is a given that bowden had served his orginal sentence i think.


Tax, ime, there isn't much point trying to argue the appropriate application of justice where Mr Bowden is concerned. despite the more or less indisputable fact that he has served an appropriate sentence for his crime, and was being considered for parole, and was allowed into the local community to try and assimilate himself in preparation for something that many people find impossible. it seems that its easier to mock and jeer in a way that i find surprising from people who call themselves free-thinkers. c'est la vie....


----------



## The Black Hand (Jun 1, 2008)

Fullyplumped said:


> A life sentence is exactly that. A person sentenced to life imprisonment may be released on licence, which means that the authorities have discretion to return him on her to prison at any time after release.



But in effect they do not. That's a de facto end to the life sentance when released is it not?


----------



## chico enrico (Jun 2, 2008)

Attica said:


> But in effect they do not. That's a de facto end to the life sentance when released is it not?





i thought anyone released on licence could be returned to prison? perhaps the best known 'celebrity' case in recent years being johnny adair.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jun 2, 2008)

chico enrico said:


> i thought anyone released on licence could be returned to prison? perhaps the best known 'celebrity' case in recent years being johnny adair.



The exception which proves the rule - that's an exceptional case...


----------



## JHE (Jun 2, 2008)

Mr Adair was a sadistic killer with a small but vocal political fan club.  Can you think of anyone else like that?



Anyway, the point about being out on licence applies in all cases of parole.  Keep your nose clean or you're put back inside.

I'm sorry Welf still seems not to understand that being in prison for the period of his tariff does NOT ENTITLE the prisoner to be released.  Perhaps he just doesn't want to get it.


----------



## Deareg (Jun 2, 2008)

Attica said:


> But in effect they do not. That's a de facto end to the life sentance when released is it not?



no even after a lifer is released he is on license for the rest of his life and his license can be revoked for even the most minor misdemeanour,  Adair's was slightly different, his license was only valid until he had reached what would have been the half way mark on his sentence but the review commission could revoke it even if he had not been proved to have committed a further crime


----------



## Taxamo Welf (Jun 2, 2008)

JHE said:


> Mr Adair was a sadistic killer with a small but vocal political fan club.  Can you think of anyone else like that?



that's a ridiculous, preposterous and frankly disgraceful comparison and it totally devalues what ever else you have to say.

And i am not an ABC member or supporter, and neither am i interested in exonerating Bowden. 

I think people on both sides are being hysterical in this debate.


----------



## JHE (Jun 2, 2008)

Taxamo Welf said:


> that's a ridiculous, preposterous and frankly disgraceful comparison...



Yeah, good point, Welf. 

You recognise the comparison.  You just don't like it.  Tough luck.

I'll concede there is a difference too.  Adair did his terrorist stuff for political motives.  Bowden's just a good old-fashioned homicidal sadistic nutjob.  His profession of anarchism, sincere or otherwise, came later.


----------



## revol68 (Jun 3, 2008)

Taxamo Welf said:


> *that's a ridiculous, preposterous and frankly disgraceful comparison and it totally devalues what ever else you have to say.*
> 
> And i am not an ABC member or supporter, and neither am i interested in exonerating Bowden.
> 
> I think people on both sides are being hysterical in this debate.



what?

Johnny Adair is a piece of shit no doubt responsible for many murders on many levels but unlike John Bowden he hasn't to anyones knowledge chopped anyone up alive and he atleast claimed to be a loyalist long before getting sent down rather than embracing a political ideology as a retrospective exoneration of his own brutality, "wasn't my fault, it was capitalism and the state that made me do it".

Johnny Adair and many other murderous cunts got released as part of a political settlement aimed towards ending the troubles, I don't see the release of John Bowden being linked to any major political settlement, infact his fate is inconsequential to almost everyone but a bunch of anarcho-eejits who've picked possibly one of the worst poster boys for their Prisoner Solidarity work this side of Ian Huntley.


----------



## Fullyplumped (Jun 7, 2008)

Honest citizens will be pleased to learn that Mr Bowden has been reunited with the Scottish prison service. 

Escaped killer held in dawn swoop on farm

_AN escaped killer was arrested during a dawn swoop on a farm near Glasgow today.

Runaway prisoner John Bowden was detained after a six-hour stand-off with armed police. The 51-year-old had fled from Noranside Prison, near Forfar three weeks ago.

Specially trained police surrounded a building at Lawmuir Farm, Hardgate, around 10pm after Bowden and another man had been tracked to the site.

The stand-off eventually ended around 4am and police said two men, aged 50 and 51 were now in custody.

It's believed Bowden and his companion had contacted a journalist in England to say they were not armed, and were holed up in a room in the farmhouse._​
The story doesn't say whether the police checked the fridge.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jun 8, 2008)

Fullyplumped said:


> The story doesn't say whether the police checked the fridge.


Why would it? Circumstances are entirely different.


----------



## JHE (Jun 8, 2008)

Attica said:


> Why would it? Circumstances are entirely different.



No fridge on the farm, eh?


----------



## The Black Hand (Jun 8, 2008)

JHE said:


> No fridge on the farm, eh?



He was not on a farm circa 30 years ago.


----------



## JHE (Jun 8, 2008)

Attica said:


> He was not on a farm circa 30 years ago.



No, more of a slaughter house...


----------



## The Black Hand (Jun 8, 2008)

JHE said:


> No, more of a slaughter house...



No it was a bedsit.


----------



## JHE (Jun 8, 2008)

Attica said:


> No it was a bedsit.



John's bedsit - with guest.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jun 8, 2008)

JHE said:


> John's bedsit - with guest.



That's not his gaff.


----------



## JHE (Jun 9, 2008)

Attica said:


> That's not his gaff.



Bit of a gaffe of his, though...


----------



## The Black Hand (Jun 9, 2008)

No More Prison

http://www.alternatives2prison.ik.com/home.ikml


----------



## revol68 (Jun 9, 2008)

Attica said:


> No More Prison



Christ if you're going to argue for the abolition of prison it might be best not to support the kind of person who most people reckon should be left to rot there, if not executed in the first place.

Seriously, what exactly do you think should happen to sadistic murderers, a slap on the wrist, a bit of community service, tagging, or maybe a few anger management sessions? If we aren't going to keep murderers, rapists and other violent fuckwits locked up securely away from the rest of society what should we do? I reckon the only other sane option is to execute them.


----------



## mk12 (Jun 9, 2008)

Attica said:


> No More Prison



What do you propose we do with all those people locked up now?


----------



## The Black Hand (Jun 9, 2008)

mk12 said:


> What do you propose we do with all those people locked up now?


Put them in your street.


----------



## JHE (Jun 9, 2008)

mk12 said:


> What do you propose we do with all those people locked up now?



He's going to invite them to join Autonomous Class War, The International Brigade (Hezbollocks' Helpers) and _Mayday! Mayday!_, the International Journal of Praxical Studies.

If they decline, Brig's going to send John round to skin them alive and chop their heads off - in a non-authoritarian way.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jun 9, 2008)

JHE said:


> He's going to invite them to join Autonomous Class War, The International Brigade (Hezbollocks' Helpers) and _Mayday! Mayday!_, the International Journal of Praxical Studies.
> 
> If they decline, Brig's going to send John round to skin them alive and chop their heads off - in a non-authoritarian way.



No, I am not talking about hypotheticals cos they're bollocks.


----------



## Jessiedog (Jun 9, 2008)

*sigh*



Woof


----------



## mk12 (Jun 9, 2008)

Attica said:


> Put them in your street.



What do you propose we do with all those people locked up now?


----------



## Frampton (Jun 10, 2008)

Why is so much hatred being shovelled onto this guy.....?

Prisons? The fact is they don't work. No matter what deterrents, or more coppers on the beat, or harsh regimes are introduced, crime continues apace. Take a trip round most HMP's and you will find wings overflowing with drug-related crimes and/or people who would perhaps be better served in some mental health setting.

As for the axe-murderers and rapists (that over-tired Daily Mail mantra) .... I simply don't know how a free society would deal with them. It's a decision for those with the victim's interest and the local community to make. Whatever punishment is decided upon I hope they carry the grace to accept that punishment can be completed:that change is possible and that serving prisoners actually do find some meaning in life in religion, meditation, Anarchism, body-building..... whatever ... and who are we to say they shouldn't?


----------



## _angel_ (Jun 10, 2008)

Frampton said:


> Why is so much hatred being shovelled onto this guy.....?
> 
> Prisons? The fact is they don't work. No matter what deterrents, or more coppers on the beat, or harsh regimes are introduced, crime continues apace. Take a trip round most HMP's and you will find wings overflowing with drug-related crimes and/or people who would perhaps be better served in some mental health setting.
> 
> *As for the axe-murderers and rapists (that over-tired Daily Mail mantra) .... I simply don't know how a free society would deal with them*. It's a decision for those with the victim's interest and the local community to make. Whatever punishment is decided upon I hope they carry the grace to accept that punishment can be completed:that change is possible and that serving prisoners actually do find some meaning in life in religion, meditation, Anarchism, body-building..... whatever ... and who are we to say they shouldn't?




A lot of the community would want them hanged or kept in even tougher jails.

I agree there are people in jail who shouldn't be there but also there are plenty who should be, and for much longer, to ensure public safety.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jun 10, 2008)

_angel_ said:


> A lot of the community would want them hanged or kept in even tougher jails.
> 
> I agree there are people in jail who shouldn't be there but also there are plenty who should be, and for much longer, to ensure public safety.



Over 90% are inside for property offences (financial). Do you include some of those in your  'plenty who deserve to be locked up'?


----------



## mk12 (Jun 10, 2008)

> Why is so much hatred being shovelled onto this guy.....?



Because he murdered someone and chopped his head off.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jun 10, 2008)

mk12 said:


> Because he murdered someone and chopped his head off.



I love the republican French revolutionaries who did the same thing Grow up you lot, it was a long time ago. 

Your conservative angst and pseudo disgust does you no credit.


----------



## _angel_ (Jun 10, 2008)

Attica said:


> I love the republican French revolutionaries who did the same thing Grow up you lot, it was a long time ago.
> 
> Your conservative angst and pseudo disgust does you no credit.



Are you trying to say that guy deserved to have his head chopped off?

I can't understand why anarchists pick someone like John Bowden to champion. Why not pick one of the many in jail for stupid reasons and/ or have mental health problems.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Jun 10, 2008)

_angel_ said:


> Are you trying to say that guy deserved to have his head chopped off?
> 
> I can't understand why anarchists pick someone like John Bowden to champion. Why not pick one of the many in jail for stupid reasons and/ or have mental health problems.



No Angel he was trying to show how politically sophisticated he was by trying to make a joke with a stupid analogy.

As for your second question you'll have more luck getting an answer if you think of (not very deep) psychological motivations rather than political ones.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## scumbalina (Jun 10, 2008)

_angel_ said:


> I can't understand why anarchists pick someone like John Bowden to champion. Why not pick one of the many in jail for stupid reasons and/ or have mental health problems.




This is how I understand it/feel about it, but I can't speak for anyone else, especially not the Freedom for John Bowden campaign nor ABC as I'm not involved in either, so may be wrong (I should be up front and point out that I am involved with a publication that he has written for on various issues regarding prison/prisoners)...

Bowden's campaigning on prison issues and conditions etc should be supported and publicised - what he has to say on these issues is relevant no matter who they come from. People have the ability to change and also to do terrible things and with the right support and help become useful members of society years down the line, if we don't try and ensure that happens we're pretty fucked. If he has something useful to say/offer then that is a positive thing. Prison support is a sticky business, it's not all tree huggers and grannies who didn't pay their council tax, those who are involved in prison struggle are often lifers, who are usually in for fucking nasty reasons. I guess it's a bit like if you're involved in campaigning against the death penalty in the US, it's not all Black Panther's, it's also rapists and murders you're campaigning for, it can be an emotive and difficult situation that raises a lot of issues.

He is being held because of his involvement with a political organization/his political views NOT because he is deemed a threat, that's dodgy as fuck if you ask me and should be fought against - I'd fight against someone being held for those reasons no matter what their crime, the implications of letting such things pass are dangerous. 

That is not to say that I (or hopefully many others) make any bones about the fact that what he is in prison for is a disgusting and terrible thing to have doen, there are not and should not be offered any excuses, although there are explanations for why he became such a brutal character, I think it's interesting for people to hear these as it's important that we understand how people come to a point of such violence. I don't think those who have made excuses for or belittled/brushed under the carpet the actions that led to him being in prison have done anyhone any favours, least of all Bowden himself.

Personally, if this makes sense, I almost see him/his crime as an irrelevance to the issues raised, those of problem faced by prisoners/the prison system and the fact that he is being held for political reasons - however I can understand why others may find it hard to seperate the issues from his crime.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 10, 2008)

Attica's post above is a sickening disagrace and an insult. He is a liability to anyone involved in serious prisoner support work and to the prisoners they try and support. He undermines the case for this sort of work with each and every post he makes on this subject.


----------



## biff curtains (Jun 10, 2008)

scumbalina said:


> This is how I understand it/feel about it, but I can't speak for anyone else so may be wrong (I should be up front and point out that I am involved with a publication that he has written for on various issues regarding prison/prisoners)...
> 
> Bowden's campaigning on prison issues and conditions etc should be supported and publicised - what he has to say on these issues is relevant no matter who they come from. People have the ability to change and also to do terrible things and with the right support and help become useful members of society years down the line, if we don't try and ensure that happens we're pretty fucked. If he has something useful to say/offer then that is a positive thing. Prison support is a sticky business, it's not all tree huggers and grannies who didn't pay their council tax, those who are involved in prison struggle are often lifers, who are usually in for fucking nasty reasons. I guess it's a bit like if you're involved in campaigning against the death penalty in the US, it's not all Black Panther's, it's also rapists and murders you're campaigning for, it can be an emotive and difficult situation that raises a lot of issues.
> 
> ...



100% agree.


----------



## biff curtains (Jun 10, 2008)

_angel_ said:


> Are you trying to say that gut deserved to have his head chopped off?
> 
> I can't understand why anarchists pick someone like John Bowden to champion. Why not pick one of the many in jail for stupid reasons and/ or have mental health problems.



attica is not an anarchist as many of his posts make clear, he is some sort of mentally ill autonomist marxist.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jun 10, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> Attica's post above is a sickening disagrace and an insult. He is a liability to anyone involved in serious prisoner support work and to the prisoners they try and support. He undermines the case for this sort of work with each and every post he makes on this subject.



Bollocks. You on the other hand do jack shit.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jun 10, 2008)

_angel_ said:


> Are you trying to say that gut deserved to have his head chopped off?
> 
> I can't understand why anarchists pick someone like John Bowden to champion. Why not pick one of the many in jail for stupid reasons and/ or have mental health problems.



A) I wasn't trying to say anything of the sort.

B) You will have to ask Leeds ABC. I am politically defending the ABC.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jun 10, 2008)

Louis MacNeice said:


> A) No Angel he was trying to show how politically sophisticated he was by trying to make a joke with a stupid analogy.
> 
> As for your second question you'll have more luck getting an answer if you think of (not very deep) psychological motivations rather than political ones.
> 
> Cheers - Louis MacNeice



A) No - wrong again Louis. Why don't you get back to writing your stuff for work. There is no point to you posting here.

B) People change, that is the thing. Unlike you lot of nay sayers Bowden has been met by ABC on the INSIDE and not just visiting. Bowden has been published in Class War, by No More Prison, and many others for over a decade. leeds ABC are supporting Bowden - this is what the ABC does, it supports people inside. 

You lot of  sad 'conservative realists' are not radical at all.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jun 10, 2008)

biff curtains said:


> attica is not an anarchist as many of his posts make clear, he is some sort of mentally ill autonomist marxist.



No - that's you that is. WANKER. 

Reports post for prejeudicial posting towards those with mental health issues....


----------



## cesare (Jun 10, 2008)

Attica said:


> No - that's you that is. WANKER.
> 
> Reports post for prejeudicial posting towards those with mental health issues....



He said nothing prejudicial about mentally ill people at all. Unless you think that autonomist marxism is prejudicial? Or that using you as a benchmark is prejudicial?


----------



## Wilf (Jun 10, 2008)

scumbalina said:


> This is how I understand it/feel about it, but I can't speak for anyone else, especially not the Freedom for John Bowden campaign nor ABC as I'm not involved in either, so may be wrong (I should be up front and point out that I am involved with a publication that he has written for on various issues regarding prison/prisoners)...
> 
> Bowden's campaigning on prison issues and conditions etc should be supported and publicised - what he has to say on these issues is relevant no matter who they come from. People have the ability to change and also to do terrible things and with the right support and help become useful members of society years down the line, if we don't try and ensure that happens we're pretty fucked. If he has something useful to say/offer then that is a positive thing. Prison support is a sticky business, it's not all tree huggers and grannies who didn't pay their council tax, those who are involved in prison struggle are often lifers, who are usually in for fucking nasty reasons. I guess it's a bit like if you're involved in campaigning against the death penalty in the US, it's not all Black Panther's, it's also rapists and murders you're campaigning for, it can be an emotive and difficult situation that raises a lot of issues.
> 
> ...



Excellent post.  On the bit at the end, yes, its a tricky and sensitive issue.  Its perfectly legitimate to think what he did was so vile that you won't support him at all - and its equally legitimate to make a personal choice to do the opposite and support his case.  Its _how _you do it though that's important - by having some respect for his victim and family, not by making 'quips' about the French Revolution.


----------



## cesare (Jun 10, 2008)

Incidentally Attica - your current tag-line "The Special One" - I've observed that some people use 'special' to describe people with mental health conditions. If you aren't mentally ill, your tagline may be misleading people.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jun 10, 2008)

cesare said:


> He said nothing prejudicial about mentally ill people at all. Unless you think that autonomist marxism is prejudicial? Or that using you as a benchmark is prejudicial?



Yes he did, he used it in a derogatory way clearly. Stop making excuses, go do some politics


----------



## The Black Hand (Jun 10, 2008)

cesare said:


> Incidentally Attica - your current tag-line "The Special One" - I've observed that some people use 'special' to describe people with mental health conditions. If you aren't mentally ill, your tagline may be misleading people.



Incidentally you are talking bollocks again. 'The Special one' is known to everybody in the country bar you as being the term used to describe Jose Mourinho.

As i said go do something useful and tell us about that then i maybe interested


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Jun 10, 2008)

Attica said:


> A) No - wrong again Louis. Why don't you get back to writing your stuff for work. There is no point to you posting here.
> 
> B) People change, that is the thing. Unlike you lot of nay sayers Bowden has been met by ABC on the INSIDE and not just visiting. Bowden has been published in Class War, by No More Prison, and many others for over a decade. leeds ABC are supporting Bowden - this is what the ABC does, it supports people inside.
> 
> You lot of  sad 'conservative realists' are not radical at all.



You don't do irony very well do you; although not suprising in one so singularly self obsessed. 

Also I'm interested how far you'd think it appropriate to take the attitude of 'grow up...it was a long time ago'; perhaps you should try it out on some victims of crime, their families and loved ones. 

You really are an idiot of staggering proportions. Keep up the good work - Louis MacNeice


----------



## cesare (Jun 10, 2008)

Attica said:


> Incidentally you are talking bollocks again. 'The Special one' is known to everybody in the country bar you as being the term used to describe Jose Mourinho.
> 
> As i said go do something useful and tell us about that then i maybe interested




Perhaps you ought to run a poll to find out how many people have heard of Jose Mourinho?


----------



## The Black Hand (Jun 10, 2008)

cesare said:


> Perhaps you ought to run a poll to find out how many people have heard of Jose Mourinho?



As i said go do something useful and tell us about that then i maybe interested


----------



## The Black Hand (Jun 10, 2008)

Louis MacNeice said:


> A) You don't do irony very well do you; although not suprising in one so singularly self obsessed.
> 
> B) Also I'm interested how far you'd think it appropriate to take the attitude of 'grow up...it was a long time ago'; perhaps you should try it out on some victims of crime, their families and loved ones.
> 
> C) You really are an idiot of staggering proportions. Keep up the good work - Louis MacNeice



A) Bollocks.

B) WTF gibberish. 

C) You are the idiot of idiots, the tithead of titheads. Go write something politically useful as I said, not interested until then. YOu really shouldn't bother posting.


----------



## STFC (Jun 10, 2008)

Thanks Attica, for bringing my attention to the case of John Bowden. I'd never heard of him before.

I've just been doing a bit of reading about his case and I'm firmly of the opinion that he should have swung.

I see he was in court today, following his recapture after absconding from HMP Noranside. Hopefully he'll be banged up for a few more years, and not in open prison either.


----------



## cesare (Jun 10, 2008)

Attica said:


> Yes he did, he used it in a derogatory way clearly. Stop making excuses, go do some politics




It wasn't at all derogatory. Speculative maybe, but not derogatory.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jun 10, 2008)

cesare said:


> It wasn't at all derogatory. Speculative maybe, but not derogatory.



No.


----------



## cesare (Jun 10, 2008)

Attica said:


> As i said go do something useful and tell us about that then i maybe interested



Perhaps I could launch a magazine


----------



## The Black Hand (Jun 10, 2008)

cesare said:


> Perhaps I could launch a magazine



Yes.


----------



## cesare (Jun 10, 2008)

Attica said:


> No.



There's nothing derogatory about saying that someone is mentally ill (and I'm concerned that you interpret it that way, says more about you than him) especially as that someone has the tagline 'The Special One'. Most misleading.


----------



## cesare (Jun 10, 2008)

Attica said:


> Yes.



I could call it 'Heyday'


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## The Black Hand (Jun 10, 2008)

cesare said:


> I could call it 'Heyday'



Cultural magazines are always useful.


----------



## cesare (Jun 10, 2008)

Attica said:


> Cultural magazines are always useful.



It shall be a political encouragement for people to do more instead of reading magazines


----------



## The Black Hand (Jun 10, 2008)

cesare said:


> There's nothing derogatory about saying that someone is mentally ill (and I'm concerned that you interpret it that way, says more about you than him) especially as that someone has the tagline 'The Special One'. Most misleading.



He and others use it as a term of abuse. End of. I do not believe they are being honest, they would lie if they meant it in a derogatory way too. 

In short, such comments have no place on a progressive bulletin board. It should down to the QUALITY of argument.

Stop encouraging such shit, it is a very dangerous and prejeudicail way to proceed. I notice the wanker concerned has not popped up again...


----------



## The Black Hand (Jun 10, 2008)

cesare said:


> It shall be a political encouragement for people to do more instead of reading magazines



Only if related to Praxis


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Jun 10, 2008)

Attica said:


> B) WTF gibberish.



Surely you remember posting the injunction to 'grow up...it was a long time ago'; if your short term memory is that hazy then I think a trip to the doctors might be in order...or at least a quiet lie down in a darkened room. After all your silliness today you must be exhausted.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## chico enrico (Jun 10, 2008)

Or "Gayday: magazine of the Larry Grayson Appreciation Society" 

But seriously, Attica, if you maintain you are 'defending the ABC politically' that does infer a degree of unconditional support.

Do you therefore support campaigning for the Unabomber or belief - stated for all to see on the title page of their website - that Harold Shipman was "murdered by the state"?

Cos, repressed Tory or wet-arsed liberal or whetever I might be, but I really don't want to have anything with folks who propogate that sort of crap.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jun 10, 2008)

chico enrico said:


> Or "Gayday: magazine of the Larry Grayson Appreciation Society"
> 
> A) But seriously, Attica, if you maintain you are 'defending the ABC politically' that does infer a degree of unconditional support.
> 
> ...



A) For Leeds ABC.
B) Not relevant. That wasn't the Leeds ABC website.
C) Ok.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jun 10, 2008)

Louis MacNeice said:


> Surely I remember posting rubbish; My short term memory is hazy, I think a trip to the doctors might be in order...or at least a quiet lie down in a darkened room. After all my silliness today I am exhausted.
> 
> Cheers - Louis MacNeice



Good - fuck off.


----------



## cesare (Jun 10, 2008)

Attica said:


> He and others use it as a term of abuse. End of. I do not believe they are being honest, they would lie if they meant it in a derogatory way too.
> 
> In short, such comments have no place on a progressive bulletin board. It should down to the QUALITY of argument.
> 
> Stop encouraging such shit, it is a very dangerous and prejeudicail way to proceed. I notice the wanker concerned has not popped up again...



Y'see, not only do you undermine the John Bowden support with quips about  French revolutionaries as if promoting that whole beheading aspect; but you  also undermine people with mental health conditions by saying that even stating that someone might have a mental health condition is in and of itself derogatory. 

And when these things are pointed out to you - instead of taking a couple of minutes to reflect and wonder if they may have a point/s and then do some sensible clarification if they really have got the wrong end of the stick, or apologise if they've got a point ... you just carry on reinforcing the perceptions that you have created. 

That's a matter for you of course, but it's hardly a recommended method for influencing people. Is this what you mean by praxis?


----------



## biff curtains (Jun 10, 2008)

Attica said:


> No - that's you that is. WANKER.
> 
> Reports post for prejeudicial posting towards those with mental health issues....



I was not using the phrase in a prejudicial sense at all, your posts in this thread in particular, but also across several other threads and BBs indicate you have mental health problems, I do not make light of that at all - and on the other hand I don't think it is an incredibly bad thing in itself to have such problems. 

However the John Bowden campaign (which I support for the same reasons as Scumbalina gave) really does not need someone who claims to support it making it look worse than it already is - if your problems lead to you doing that, then it becomes a very bad thing indeed.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jun 10, 2008)

cesare said:


> Y'see, not only do you undermine the John Bowden support with quips about  French revolutionaries as if promoting that whole beheading aspect; but you  also undermine people with mental health conditions by saying that even stating that someone might have a mental health condition is in and of itself derogatory.
> 
> And when these things are pointed out to you - instead of taking a couple of minutes to reflect and wonder if they may have a point/s and then do some sensible clarification if they really have got the wrong end of the stick, or apologise if they've got a point ... you just carry on reinforcing the perceptions that you have created.
> 
> That's a matter for you of course, but it's hardly a recommended method for influencing people. Is this what you mean by praxis?



FFS - as if it matters here. There's too many sad realist around who do fek all in the wider world There's nowt wrong with quips. I am not underming support for Bowden - his support is already fucked amongst you lot. 
This is bollocks "you  also undermine people with mental health conditions by saying that even stating that someone might have a mental health condition is in and of itself derogatory." In a situation where an attack is being aimed at me it clearly is *at least *de facto derogatory - it is NOT as innocent as you stupid liberals would imagine. I submit it is ALSO said with malice and that can be assumed when I am being attacked. 

AS I have said before I am not trying to influence people on here, if only I could get the time. I have to defend myself first from bollocks like this way too much.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jun 10, 2008)

biff curtains said:


> My posts in this thread in particular, but also across several other threads and BBs indicate I have mental health problems.



Really?


----------



## cesare (Jun 10, 2008)

Attica said:


> I notice the wanker concerned has not popped up again...



I forgot to respond to this.

The 'wanker' concerned would never denigrate people with mental health problems and he does far more work in the local community than you would even dream of  - whilst you're spending your time on here lecturing everyone about praxis, promoting your magazine, running people down for the efforts they make and self aggrandising yourself and your ideas.


----------



## Wilf (Jun 10, 2008)

Attica said:


> AS I have said before I am not trying to influence people on here, if only I could get the time. *I have to defend myself *first from bollocks like this way too much.



To be honest, no, you _don't _have to. There's really no point carrying on like this at all - nor, to be honest, is there much to be gained in people provoking you on this and other threads.  Its still quite sunny outside.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jun 10, 2008)

4thwrite said:


> To be honest, no, you _don't _have to. There's really no point carrying on like this at all - nor, to be honest, is there much to be gained in people provoking you on this and other threads.  Its still quite sunny outside.



I think I should. I think it shows they are wankers for acting as a pack, picking on a poor victim so. There's nothing progressive about what they do at all.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jun 10, 2008)

cesare said:


> I forgot to respond to this.
> 
> The 'wanker' concerned would never denigrate people with mental health problems and he does far more work in the local community than you would even dream of  - whilst you're spending your time on here lecturing everyone about praxis, promoting your magazine, running people down for the efforts they make and self aggrandising yourself and your ideas.



Slurp Butchers slurp.


----------



## cesare (Jun 10, 2008)

Attica said:


> Slurp Butchers slurp.



I'm not going to respond with insults of my own. Either you'll respond to the substantive points or you'll continue to ignore them.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jun 10, 2008)

cesare said:


> I'm not going to respond with insults of my own. Either you'll respond to the substantive points or you'll continue to ignore them.


Why spoil your habits of a lifetime?

You insulted me with your original post - here it is again;

"The wanker concerned would never denigrate people with mental health problems and he does far more work in the local community than you would even dream of - whilst you're spending your time on here lecturing everyone about praxis, promoting your magazine, running people down for the efforts they make and self aggrandising yourself and your ideas."


----------



## chico enrico (Jun 10, 2008)

Attica said:


> A) For Leeds ABC.
> B) Not relevant. That wasn't the Leeds ABC website.
> C) Ok.



fair enough, i was mistaken. It is Brighton ABC who support freeing psychopathic would be-bomber of holiday jets the Unabomber.

and while I was again wrong as to it being an ABC site that claimed Shipman as a libertarian martyr, It _was_ the the 'Alternatives To Prisons' No More Prisons website that features on its' home page: 

"Killed by Britain's Prisons in 2004.... Harold Shipman, 57, died HMP Wakefield" of which you posted on 16/01/08:

Originally Posted by Attica 
John Bowden from the No More Prison groups website. This is the leading (or amongst the leading) aboilitionist websites/groups in the UK, I suggest the boo boys or anybody truly independent out there reading this asks them why they are supporting John Bowden.... 

What I still don't get is why you would have anything in common with people with such allegiances? Surely, solidarity has its' limits? And secondly, don't you think all this business does is damage the work of those genuinely and positively involved with class struggles, anarchist politics or alternatives to the prison system?


----------



## The Black Hand (Jun 10, 2008)

*Chico*

I confess I do think people can change and I do respect Leeds ABC. 

THe No More Prison bunch are very good at what they do. You will have to tackle them about Shipman - 'why it is on their site'. As for Bowden I give him the benefit of the doubt, on the balance of probabilities, which is the level of proof needed in Criminal courts. 

The Criminal Justice system is getting larger and larger all around the world. It is important to support all our class and not just cherry pick 'which struggle to support', otherwise we loose a sense of the vigilance we will always need and make expedient political decisions. 

 you said "don't you think all this business does is damage the work of those genuinely and positively involved with class struggles, anarchist politics or alternatives to the prison system?" 

It may if it happened, but I do not think it has. I agree it is not a campaign I am promoting publically (beyond de facto promotion on this website), but I am happy to let Leeds ABC do the business. Objectively it is a small campaign I haven't come across anywhere other than on usual suspects websites.

It is not an important issue for me which I have taken to heart or put effort into, however I do support it intellectually. I suppose I have de facto made a decision not to put heart and soul into his campaign, but there are LOTS and lots of struggles I do the same with, so it is not unusual political practice i think.


----------



## chico enrico (Jun 10, 2008)

Attica said:


> The Criminal Justice system is getting larger and larger all around the world. _*It is important to support all our class *_and not just cherry pick 'which struggle to support', otherwise we loose a sense of the vigilance we will always need and make expedient political decisions.



fair comment and thanks for addressing my points but I trust the line i have underlined was an accidentally ambiguous wording and you are not actually suggesting that 'all working class prisoners' are worthy of support and , i'd imagine, logically, release.

Only pointing this out as i'm sure some others will be happy to jump on that phrase.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jun 10, 2008)

chico enrico said:


> fair comment and thanks for addressing my points but I trust the line i have underlined was an accidentally ambiguous wording and you are not actually suggesting that 'all working class prisoners' are worthy of support and , i'd imagine, logically, release.
> 
> Only pointing this out as i'm sure some others will be happy to jump on that phrase.



Yes. Well spotted!


----------



## smokedout (Jun 10, 2008)

cesare said:


> Y'see, not only do you undermine the John Bowden support with quips about  French revolutionaries as if promoting that whole beheading aspect; but you  also undermine people with mental health conditions by saying that even stating that someone might have a mental health condition is in and of itself derogatory.
> 
> And when these things are pointed out to you - instead of taking a couple of minutes to reflect and wonder if they may have a point/s and then do some sensible clarification if they really have got the wrong end of the stick, or apologise if they've got a point ... you just carry on reinforcing the perceptions that you have created.
> 
> That's a matter for you of course, but it's hardly a recommended method for influencing people. Is this what you mean by praxis?



you should really take heed of this attica

you dont do yourself, or quite often the rest of us, any favours at times


----------



## The Black Hand (Jun 10, 2008)

smokedout said:


> you should really take heed of this attica
> 
> you dont do yourself, or quite often the rest of us, any favours at times



Heard it all before... Some of it is mistaken (it could also be called rubbish), some speculation, and some I already do...


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## Deareg (Jun 10, 2008)

Attica said:


> Heard it all before... Some of it is mistaken (it could also be called rubbish), some speculation, and some I already do...



you should listen to good advice Attica, you can definitely at times be your own worse enemy and the enemy of the causes that you try to promote on here


----------



## The Black Hand (Jun 10, 2008)

Deareg said:


> you should listen to good advice Attica, you can definitely at times be your own worse enemy and the enemy of the causes that you try to promote on here



I do listen to advice - that which I assess as good I work with. That which is not I do not. 

Also what makes you think I am interested in harmony on U75?


----------



## smokedout (Jun 10, 2008)

whatever attica

just dont be upset when the glorious day finally comes and someone takes you round the corner and discreetly shoots you because you come across as a liability rather than an asset to the uk anarchist movement


----------



## The Black Hand (Jun 10, 2008)

smokedout said:


> whatever attica
> 
> just dont be upset when the glorious day finally comes and someone takes you round the corner and discreetly shoots you because you come across as a liability rather than an asset to the uk anarchist movement



Fuck off.


----------



## Refused as fuck (Jun 10, 2008)

Yeah, you can't go that far. Attica is unknown, nobody. The ABC are the liability.


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## The Black Hand (Jun 10, 2008)

smokedout said:


> whatever attica
> 
> just dont be upset when the glorious day finally comes and someone takes you round the corner and discreetly shoots you because you come across as a liability rather than an asset to the uk anarchist movement



Is this sort of 'threat to kill' allowed on U75? Its offensive and potentially illegal.

Moderators please note and ban the smoked out loony tune.


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## Wilf (Jun 10, 2008)

Seriously, Attica: how would you assess today's performance?  100+ posts, largely abuse.  Why?  What have you got out of it?  Can't have been away from the keyboard for long.

And don't think any of this is about theory, your positions or the state of the UK anarcho movement (crap as that might be).  It seems to be something you can't pull yourself away from.  Sorry - you've already bristled about suggestions you might have problems, I won't go there*.  But there is still a question of why you want to _keep _on having these rows.  What on earth do you get out of all these cyber wars?  As people have said on here and beyond, you're not a bad bloke off the internet.

Hey, fuck it, I don't want to psycho-analyse you, but am a bit pissed off by every p+p thread going this way. 


* and I do have mental health problems, so I'm really not making insults


----------



## The Black Hand (Jun 10, 2008)

4thwrite said:


> Seriously, Attica: how would you assess today's performance?  100+ posts, largely abuse.  Why?  What have you got out of it?  Can't have been away from the keyboard for long.
> 
> And don't think any of this is about theory, your positions or the state of the UK anarcho movement (crap as that might be).  It seems to be something you can't pull yourself away from.  Sorry - you've already bristled about suggestions you might have problems, I won't go there*.  But there is still a question of why you want to _keep _on having these rows.  What on earth do you get out of all these cyber wars?  As people have said on here and beyond, you're not a bad bloke off the internet.
> 
> ...



OK pal. I am OK. 

I go away for a while and I come back, call it a habit. Ironically I think it is the way I have been treated by political adversaries that has made me what i am today. I am not going to give in. I do what I see as politically necessary. 

As it goes it looks like it has finally paid off on the Searchlight thread on UK politics. We have finally got some decent discussion, but only when the pack of wankers has fucked off.

I like a good row, it gets my endorphins going It also forces me to clarify my politics which is good, i use these boards to test and develop ideas.


----------



## smokedout (Jun 10, 2008)

Attica said:


> Is this sort of 'threat to kill' allowed on U75? Its offensive and potentially illegal.
> 
> Moderators please note and ban the smoked out loony tune.



get a grip you fucking loon, it was a joke

illegal eh, should i be put in jail


----------



## The Black Hand (Jun 10, 2008)

smokedout said:


> get a grip you fucking loon, it was a joke
> 
> illegal eh, should i be put in jail



Tell it to the judge.


----------



## Deareg (Jun 11, 2008)

Attica said:


> I do listen to advice - that which I assess as good I work with. That which is not I do not.
> 
> Also what makes you think I am interested in harmony on U75?



i don't think you are interested in harmony on here, that is not what i am trying to say anyway, if some wanker just wants to have a go at you for being you, fair enough give as good as you get, but i presume that you post some of these threads to raise public awareness to the injustices that are taking place,


----------



## Frampton (Jun 11, 2008)

Still no meaningful answer as to why there are 20 pages of sheer hatred directed at this guy!

And a guy who can't answer back. I've spent lots of time with cons at various levels of atrocities. For what it's worth I've always found it wise to take time and care in listening to their story. All the more so if they have undergone extended periods of solitary.

I'm on record as offering to arrange a meeting whenever he comes to be released. Perhaps some of you to whom hatred appears so important could come along and talk about it face-to-face. (and good on ya, Attica).


----------



## STFC (Jun 11, 2008)

Frampton said:


> Still no meaningful answer as to why there are 20 pages of sheer hatred directed at this guy!



Do you mean Attica, or the homicidal maniac?

That's not to say Attica isn't a homicidal maniac, of course. He might be.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jun 11, 2008)

STFC said:


> Do you mean Attica, or the homicidal maniac?
> 
> That's not to say Attica isn't a homicidal maniac, of course. He might be.



Do you want to sharpen my knife collection with me?


----------



## chico enrico (Jun 11, 2008)

Frampton said:


> I've spent lots of time with cons at various levels of atrocities.



this thread is getting a bit boring and earnest. please tell us some stories of nutters you have met and what they got up to. all boys like to hear stories of bug eyed loons and the clammy handshake that you know has held death in its' grasp.


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## The Black Hand (Jun 11, 2008)

Frampton said:


> Still no meaningful answer as to why there are 20 pages of sheer hatred directed at this guy!
> 
> And a guy who can't answer back. I've spent lots of time with cons at various levels of atrocities. For what it's worth I've always found it wise to take time and care in listening to their story. All the more so if they have undergone extended periods of solitary.
> 
> I'm on record as offering to arrange a meeting whenever he comes to be released. Perhaps some of you to whom hatred appears so important could come along and talk about it face-to-face. (and good on ya, Attica).



Cheers bud.


----------



## phildwyer (Jun 11, 2008)

Anyway, Bowden goes down ın my estımatıon for hıs useless escape attempt. How dıffıcult can ıt be to arrange a fake passport and a plane tıcket to Haıtı or Cambodıa?  It suggests that he acted on ımpulse.  Whıch ın turn suggests that he can't control hıs ımpulses, whıch ın turn suggests that he shouldn't be released because ıt was lack of ımpulse control that led hım to commıt hıs orıgınal crıme.  All a bıt academıc now anyway I suppose.


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## chico enrico (Jun 11, 2008)

huh. Bowden and his heads in the fridge caper is a bit passe now. Doesn't anyone (FRampton?) have any other grisly tales of moon-howling loons they've encountered?

I knew someone who was in a claimants union group with Muswell Hill necrophile Dennis Nilsen. Unfortiunately she didn't have a chance to experience the clammy handshake of a man who has held death itself in his grasp. She just said he was a bit of a wanker.


----------



## chico enrico (Jun 11, 2008)

phildwyer said:


> It suggests that he acted on ımpulse.  Whıch ın turn suggests that he can't control hıs ımpulses, whıch ın turn suggests that he shouldn't be released because ıt was lack of ımpulse control that led hım to commıt hıs orıgınal crıme.



maybe he subscribes to this ethos:


----------



## durruti02 (Jun 11, 2008)

Frampton said:


> Still no meaningful answer as to why there are 20 pages of sheer hatred directed at this guy!
> 
> And a guy who can't answer back. I've spent lots of time with cons at various levels of atrocities. For what it's worth I've always found it wise to take time and care in listening to their story. All the more so if they have undergone extended periods of solitary.
> 
> I'm on record as offering to arrange a meeting whenever he comes to be released. Perhaps some of you to whom hatred appears so important could come along and talk about it face-to-face. (and good on ya, Attica).



 

 i think it has been made VERY clear why there is anger, though you are wrong to say it is all directed against him 

so why?

1) that someone could do and did do what bowden did, though for some it is followed by understanding of his situation at the time, how long ago it was and and what he has done since in terms of exposing the prison system. 

2) Then there is the issue that bowden does NOT entirely seem to 'apologise' but instead blame capitalism for his actions .. 

3) then there is 'anger' that cases LIKE this totally dominate prisoner solidarity campaigns when there are tens of thousends of ordinary w/c bods who need and deserve help.

btw what would have happened to bowden if he had NOT be sent down??? i suspect he would have killed again OR more likely been killed in a drunken fight himself. maybe maybe not but it is a thought mate that actually prison saved his life...


----------



## Frampton (Jun 12, 2008)

durruti02
That's one of the more reasoned posts in this heavily polarised thread.

My concerns are that here is a guy who has been blocked up for decades and often undergone extended periods of soliatry. I think we make a grave mistake of presuming he operates in the same mind-set as those of us who live in relative comfort.

Until I have his side of the story - and all I have to go on are the observations of fellow comrades who actually know him - I want to keep things open. For all I know he may well be some sort of psychopathic shit. My contribution is to offer to organise a future meeting where he can state his case

As it is this guy cannot answer back. And that's an important point to note. It's puzzling why posters (try phildwyer on 487 for one example) want to continually project fantastical assumptions on to him. Bowden has become a sort of blackboard which allows people to splatter their own s/m fantasies about.

From time to time, members of various black-boot user groups prosecute their own members for barely concealed atrocities. These "victims" can also blame the system for their actions - "I was only obeying orders."  And if Bowden stands up and says his crime is the fault of capitalism then that too is not acceptable as an excuse. I've said this before but had Bowden chosen the military life he could now be sipping celebratory G+T's in the British Legion.

It is wrong to imply that because I take a different slant on Bowden that I don't support the struggles of other w/c people. My other thought is that had Bowden committed this crime in a free society then he would probably been strung up. And that's OK. But then I wouldn't want to go and jump on his grave for years afterwards.


----------



## scumbalina (Jun 12, 2008)

Frampton said:


> durruti02
> That's one of the more reasoned posts in this heavily polarised thread.
> 
> My concerns are that here is a guy who has been blocked up for decades and often undergone extended periods of soliatry. I think we make a grave mistake of presuming he operates in the same mind-set as those of us who live in relative comfort.
> ...



I don't really get this, you measn once he's been released? To explain his actions that landed him in prison? I don't really see that it's relevant to the campaigns around him and I think it's a bit odd  as I can't think of anything he could say that would make anyone think "oh, that's okay, I get why you cut some guys head off now", I'd also hope he wouldn't want to make any excuses for what happened. I'd say it would make more sense to ask the campaigns/campaigners to explain their support for him_ now_ if people aren't clear on their motives rather than asking him once he's left prison


----------



## STFC (Jun 12, 2008)

On balance I think it's probably a good thing that this ridiculous group supports such people. It serves as a reminder to normal people what a bunch of weirdos they really are.


----------



## Frampton (Jun 12, 2008)

scumbalina said:


> I don't really get this, you measn once he's been released? To explain his actions that landed him in prison? I don't really see that it's relevant to the campaigns around him and I think it's a bit odd  as I can't think of anything he could say that would make anyone think "oh, that's okay, I get why you cut some guys head off now", I'd also hope he wouldn't want to make any excuses for what happened. I'd say it would make more sense to ask the campaigns/campaigners to explain their support for him_ now_ if people aren't clear on their motives rather than asking him once he's left prison



I just think someone who has had so much hatred directed at him should be given a chance of responding. I guess he will take questions from the floor. You don't, of course, have to attend. I can't think of any other way of moving this forward.


----------



## chico enrico (Jun 12, 2008)

Frampton said:


> I just think someone who has had so much hatred directed at him should be given a chance of responding. I guess he will take questions from the floor. You don't, of course, have to attend. I can't think of any other way of moving this forward.




you could just let him get on with the rest of his life when/if he gets out, rather than parading him around like some sort of anarchist elephant man.


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## Jean-Luc (Jun 12, 2008)

Does this report mean that he has been recaptured:


> Police recapture escaped murderer tayside
> headlines. Police recapture escaped murderer. Video report by Lynne Stewart. John Bowden ... John Bowden was arrested following a ten hour stand off with armed ...
> www.stv.tv/news/tayside/newArticle3310865


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## STFC (Jun 13, 2008)

Jean-Luc said:


> Does this report mean that he has been recaptured:



The bit that says "Police recapture escaped murderer" could be a clue...


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## phildwyer (Jun 13, 2008)

Frampton said:


> I just think someone who has had so much hatred directed at him should be given a chance of responding. I guess he will take questions from the floor. You don't, of course, have to attend. I can't think of any other way of moving this forward.



You've lost me now.  How are you goıng to organıze a meetıng wıth hım?


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## chico enrico (Jun 13, 2008)

phildwyer said:


> You've lost me now.  How are you goıng to organıze a meetıng wıth hım?



maybe you could say you were producing another volume of "Faces of Death"?  They managed to get an interview with John Wayne Gacy.


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## JHE (Jun 13, 2008)

phildwyer said:


> Anyway, Bowden goes down ın my estımatıon for hıs useless escape attempt. How dıffıcult can ıt be to arrange a fake passport and a plane tıcket to Haıtı or Cambodıa?  It suggests that he acted on ımpulse.  Whıch ın turn suggests that he can't control hıs ımpulses, whıch ın turn suggests that he shouldn't be released because ıt was lack of ımpulse control that led hım to commıt hıs orıgınal crıme.  All a bıt academıc now anyway I suppose.



He probably doesn't want to live in Haiti or Cambodia.

Anyway, I agree his escape probably was impulsive.  How big a problem his poor impulse control is depends, obviously, on what his impulses are.  If there is a chance that he still has sadistic murderous impulses, he should be kept locked up, not put in an open prison, let alone released.


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## lights.out.london (Jun 13, 2008)

chico enrico said:


> huh. Bowden and his heads in the fridge caper is a bit passe now. Doesn't anyone (FRampton?) have any other grisly tales of moon-howling loons they've encountered?
> 
> I knew someone who was in a claimants union group with Muswell Hill necrophile Dennis Nilsen. *Unfortiunately she didn't have a chance to experience the clammy handshake of a man who has held death itself in his grasp. She just said he was a bit of a wanker.*



Sorry. But that bit just made me laugh. 

/McWrongness


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## Jean-Luc (Jun 13, 2008)

STFC said:


> The bit that says "Police recapture escaped murderer" could be a clue...


Just wondering why people were still talking about organising a public meeting for him to explain hisself. Surely they'll never let him out now?
But there's more (from the STV website http://www.stv.tv/news/tayside/Escaped_murderer_back_in_court_080609122037937)


> A murderer who went on the run from an open jail in Angus was back in court this morning.
> 
> Fifty-one-year-old John Bowden disappeared while on a shopping trip to Forfar from Noranside Prison three weeks ago. He was serving a life sentence handed down at the Old Bailey in the early 80s.
> 
> He denied a charge of attempting to pervert the course of justice at Forfar Sheriff Court and will stand trial in August.



Perverting the course of justice? I'm not up on these things, but is that what all escaped prisoners get charged with or has he been up to something else?


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## Deareg (Jun 13, 2008)

technically he didn't escape, he absconded, the charge over here in Belfast would have been, being unlawfully at large, not sure what the equivalent is in Scotland


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## durruti02 (Jun 13, 2008)

Frampton said:


> durruti02
> That's one of the more reasoned posts in this heavily polarised thread.
> 
> My concerns are that here is a guy who has been blocked up for decades and often undergone extended periods of soliatry. I think we make a grave mistake of presuming he operates in the same mind-set as those of us who live in relative comfort.
> ...



cheers frampton .. fair play but i disagree that bowden can not answer back or has been able to answer back. He has written ( and been published ) extensively, about his case, and also about capital and prisons of which i mostly agree with, but AFAICS, he does not state a level of individual responsibility and remorse that most would expect from someone they would want to support. I think that i where a lot of the doubt comes from. If i am wrong i am sorry but that is what i have seen so far 

he is often refered to describing the case as a terrible mistake. Does this show to you, clear comprehension of what happened, of what he did? 

p.s. re what i said about him being sent to prison Here's what he says "In prison for life, I was now able to intellectually develop and grow, and in a strange sort of way, discover a freedom of heart and mind that I'd never before known" ( from the Class War article ) 
http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.ListAll&friendID=188594939


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## Jean-Luc (Jun 14, 2008)

durruti02 said:


> "In prison for life, I was now able to intellectually develop and grow, and in a strange sort of way, discover a freedom of heart and mind that I'd never before known" ( from the Class War article )


Has this appeared in Private Eye's Pseuds Corner yet?


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## durruti02 (Jun 15, 2008)

Jean-Luc said:


> Has this appeared in Private Eye's Pseuds Corner yet?


i think that is unfair mate .. it shows up to me the irony that prison may have saved him specifically AND that many w/c people have MORE stress and aggravation outside of nick than inside ..


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## jcsd (Jun 15, 2008)

Hope he's never released. 

If the parole board agree to release a lifer who shows absolutely no remorse and I think there's justifable concerns about his danger to the public, given both his lack of remorse and willingness to break the law subsequently then they'r enot doing their job.

It just shows how out of touch these groups are with the constiuents they claim to represent when they're willing to support such a cause.


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## The Black Hand (Jun 15, 2008)

jcsd said:


> Hope he's never released.
> 
> If the parole board agree to release a lifer who shows absolutely no remorse and I think there's justifable concerns about his danger to the public, given both his lack of remorse and willingness to break the law subsequently then they'r enot doing their job.
> 
> It just shows how out of touch these groups are with the constiuents they claim to represent when they're willing to support such a cause.



'Willingness to break the law' is not a criteria of any use - everybody breaks the law in some way (not handing in money they found, speeding, buying copied Cd/dvd/T-shirts etc). Many (an me) break the law so often it doesn't register.... I think the law enforcers from police to prison staff are lying/thieving/violent. & law/rule bending shites, it is just that they got in a postion to exploit (which they often, but not always, do).

The ABC claims to represent nobody but themselves as far as I am aware, so your pejorative post is wrong.


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## jcsd (Jun 15, 2008)

Attica said:


> 'Willingness to break the law' is not a criteria of any use - everybody breaks the law in some way (not handing in money they found, speeding, buying copied Cd/dvd/T-shirts etc). Many (an me) break the law so often it doesn't register.... I think the law enforcers from police to prison staff are lying/thieving/violent. & law/rule bending shites, it is just that they got in a postion to exploit (which they often, but not always, do).
> 
> The ABC claims to represent nobody but themselves as far as I am aware, so your pejorative post is wrong.



As recidvism is a a very important considertaion for the Parole board, you've got to be asking these questions. Obviouslty I don't know the ins and outs of what happened but perverting the course of justice isn't the same as getting a parking ticket.

I was talking about Class War. I don't have any liove for them, but even they must see that they're completly pointless if they're reviled by the Working classes.


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## The Black Hand (Jun 15, 2008)

jcsd said:


> As recidvism is a a very important considertaion for the Parole board, you've got to be asking these questions. Obviouslty I don't know the ins and outs of what happened but perverting the course of justice isn't the same as getting a parking ticket.
> 
> I was talking about Class War. I don't have any liove for them, but even they must see that they're completly pointless if they're reviled by the Working classes.


This threads about the ABC - you can't have read much of it.


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## Jean-Luc (Jun 16, 2008)

durruti02 said:


> i think that is unfair mate .. it shows up to me the irony that prison may have saved him specifically AND that many w/c people have MORE stress and aggravation outside of nick than inside ..


Yes, perhaps. But what does "a freedom of heart" mean? What is it?


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## Jean-Luc (Jun 16, 2008)

jcsd said:


> It just shows how out of touch these groups are with the constiuents they claim to represent when they're willing to support such a cause.


Here's a typical example of what the general public think of this case (from comments on the _South London Press_ website at http://www.southlondonpress.co.uk/tn/news.cfm?id=7756&searchword=bowden)


> 2 comments on this news item
> Posted by : Oh well..., Kent | Sunday 08/Jun/2008 | Report this comment
> 
> This is what happens when you place maximum security inmates in minimum security prisons.
> ...


For a defence of Bowden on the grounds that this is the sort of thing you do when you've been drinking too much see this item from the _Southwark News_: http://www.southwarknews.co.uk/00,news,10569,5444,00.htm


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## revol68 (Jun 16, 2008)

The idea that brutally dismembering someone alive and putting the head in the fridge is something that can happen to the best of us when we've had a bit to much to drink is stretching things a bit, rather like explaining the Holocaust as what happens when a young artist goes unappreciated, unless of course Bowden and chums had been on the Buckfast, in which case he is as much a victim as the beheaded.


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## chico enrico (Jun 16, 2008)

kinda agree with this bit though:

"He would always be going on about what was wrong with the 'system' and that it should be changed and, unless you were into all that stuff, it was pretty boring."


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## STFC (Jun 16, 2008)

revol68 said:


> The idea that brutally dismembering someone alive and putting the head in the fridge is something that can happen to the best of us when we've had a bit to much to drink is stretching things a bit, rather like explaining the Holocaust as what happens when a young artist goes unappreciated, unless of course Bowden and chums had been on the Buckfast, in which case he is as much a victim as the beheaded.



Come on, we've all done silly things when we're drunk - peeing in the airing cupboard, telling your mum's friend you want to shag her senseless, cutting someone's head off...


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## pk (Jun 17, 2008)

STFC said:


> Come on, we've all done silly things when we're drunk - peeing in the airing cupboard, telling your mum's friend you want to shag her senseless, cutting someone's head off...



Not done the mate's mum thing, but the rest, yeah, all the time.

My airing cupboard stinks of ammonia and there's so many heads rolling around my garden, it looks like a bowling alley.

Keeps the flies off the barbeque though.


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## Jean-Luc (Jun 21, 2008)

I've found the answer to my question. Bowden has been charged with perverting the course of justice for not returning after being let out to go shopping. He hasn't done anything else. See http://www.thecourier.co.uk/output/2008/06/10/newsstory11482764t0.asp
Rendez-vous, then, on 5 August at the Sheriff's Court. No doubt Leeds ABC will keep us posted (or have they dropped him, as they seem to since there don't seem to be any press statements to Indymedia, etc on his latest escapade).


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## The Black Hand (Jun 22, 2008)

*Just a point.*

My observations on page 1 of this thread were so very accurate


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## jcsd (Jun 23, 2008)

Tbh, my interest is fairly minimal. Yes it's irritating that this unreptant murderer is making noises abotu badly he's being treated and that there's people who are prepared to give him a platform. But the outside pressure on the parole board is not to relaes him ratehr than to release him, especially given the way he's conducted himslef and in all likliehood he's staying in prison for the foreseeable future.


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## The Black Hand (Jun 23, 2008)

Attica said:


> My observations on page 1 of this thread were so very accurate



Yup.


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## JHE (Jun 23, 2008)

We've got Attica agreeing with Attica agreeing with Attica.

That ya praxis, Doc?


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## chico enrico (Jun 23, 2008)

Just out of interest as he has now totally fucked up by absconding does this mean these ABC groups will stop wasting time campaigning for his freedom as there ain't a chance of that happening for a long time now and divert their apparently inexhaustable energies into campaigning for some other more deserving cases? 
(and not any google-eyed eco nuts or sunken-cheeked animal rights cranks for a start?)


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## 8den (Jun 23, 2008)

JHE said:


> We've got Attica agreeing with Attica agreeing with Attica.
> 
> That ya praxis, Doc?



Come on who hasn't done a bit of self congratulatory back patting from time to time? 

True most of us keep it to ourselves, but Attica walks a long lonely path.


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## STFC (Jun 23, 2008)

chico enrico said:


> Just out of interest as he has now totally fucked up by absconding does this mean these ABC groups will stop wasting time campaigning for his freedom as there ain't a chance of that happening for a long time now and divert their apparently inexhaustable energies into campaigning for some other more deserving cases?
> (and not any google-eyed eco nuts or sunken-cheeked animal rights cranks for a start?)



Ian Huntley?


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## chico enrico (Jun 23, 2008)

STFC said:


> Ian Huntley?



Well, i've no doubt if he was to read a few Alexander Berkman books the Brighton lot would for a start. 

Ian Brady n'all probably. 

"just a drunken accident"


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## The Black Hand (Jun 23, 2008)

JHE said:


> We've got Attica agreeing with Attica agreeing with Attica.
> 
> That ya praxis, Doc?



It does prove an accurate view of the future of political discussion in this case.


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## Jean-Luc (Jul 6, 2008)

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article1386293.ece
Somebody else who drunk too much on a Saturday night?


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## Frampton (Jul 11, 2008)

I've posted on this before but as it hits the news again I might as well repeat it.

John Bowden took the wrong profession. In amongst yesterdays' £3million MOD pay-out to the family of murdered Iraqi was a brief mention that one Corporal Payne pleaded guilty to torturing an innocent Iraqi who was to die after three days of mistreatment. Corporal Payne got 12 months. His 6 fellow soldiers were cleared. Corporal Payne has long been released. Perhaps this ex-soldier merits 40-odd pages of hatred?


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## Belushi (Jul 11, 2008)

Frampton said:


> Corporal Payne has long been released. Perhaps this ex-soldier merits 40-odd pages of hatred?



Why dont you start a thread to find out?


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## chico enrico (Jul 11, 2008)

You're quite young, aren't you?


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## agricola (Jul 11, 2008)

Frampton said:


> I've posted on this before but as it hits the news again I might as well repeat it.
> 
> John Bowden took the wrong profession. In amongst yesterdays' £3million MOD pay-out to the family of murdered Iraqi was a brief mention that one Corporal Payne pleaded guilty to torturing an innocent Iraqi who was to die after three days of mistreatment. Corporal Payne got 12 months. His 6 fellow soldiers were cleared. Corporal Payne has long been released. Perhaps this ex-soldier merits 40-odd pages of hatred?



Has Corporal Payne published several pamphlets that served to minimize his own role in his offending?  Did he escape twice during his term of imprisonment?  Did supporters of his organize protests on his behalf?  Did he boil that Iraqi alive?

If the answers are no, I think forty pages of hatred are perhaps not justified.


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## Frampton (Jul 11, 2008)

agricola said:


> Has Corporal Payne published several pamphlets that served to minimize his own role in his offending?  Did he escape twice during his term of imprisonment?  Did supporters of his organize protests on his behalf?  Did he boil that Iraqi alive?
> 
> If the answers are no, I think forty pages of hatred are perhaps not justified.



The fact is that we don't know. There are still calls for an inquiry into this case. I don't know of any phamphlets he may have published to justify his actions. I don't know if he escaped. Did supporters protest on his behalf? Yes. His good character was promoted at his trail by his Officers and regimental colleagues. Did he boil that Iraqi alive? No he didn't. He subjected him to 72 hours of hooded kickings, prolonged stress positions, sleep deprivation and 95 separate identifiable injuries.


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## chico enrico (Jul 12, 2008)

It's have thought a more pertinent question would be; had Corpral Payne received a life sentence but during his incarceration 'discovered anarchism' would YOU now be campaigning for his release?


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## The Black Hand (Aug 4, 2008)

*Support John Bowden - naysayers fek orrffff*

Update

In May this year, long-term prison resister John Bowden went on the run whilst out on a routine shopping trip from HMP Noranside. We can now reveal why he did so when he was so close to a new parole hearing. 

Lifer and long term prison rebel John Bowden, who absconded from Open Prison whilst on home leave, was recaptured on 6/6/08. After 3 weeks on the run the Police discovered JB hiding on a farm on the outskirts of Glasgow. He now languishes back in maximum security conditions in HMP Glenochil in need of support and solidarity. 

The incident at the farm quickly escalated into a tense siege situation, with armed anti-terror Police, who were acting on a tip off from an informant, ringing the perimeter. It was at this point that John feared that this was a scene the cops would be only too happy for him not to walk out of alive. However with the intervention of a sympathetic journalist a line of communication was opened and the siege ended peacefully after 7 hours, with John and another person arrested. 

The Scottish media had from the outset portrayed John's being-at-large with predictably sensational headlines ( 'Mad Axeman on the loose', etc...) when in reality he had been on home leave once a month for the past 12 months and on the long road to eventual release. The day he was recaptured reads like a Western stand-off between the sheriff's deputies and a bunch of desperados rather than the Police taking an absconder from an open prison back into custody. 

John was convicted for a murder he describes as stupid and a terrible mistake, has spent his entire adult life in prison. Politicised by his incarceration he's regularly payed the price for his resistance through long periods of isolation, brutal beatings and treatment amounting to torture. He has never been broken and is one of the UK's most articulate and vociferous prison writers and a powerful advocate of prisoners rights. 

Throughout his 25 years imprisonment, John has suffered constant harassment and brutality at the hands of the system. As someone who is not prepared to compromise his beliefs, this has served to mark him out for special attention. In May 2007 the Scottish Prison and Probation Service were involved in a clumsy attempt to prevent his parole by framing him (and smearing the ABC prisoner support network) with accusations that the ABC was involved in terrorism and that JB was therefore associating with terrorists! This all spectacularly backfired, with the SPS issuing a full apology. However it was successful in preventing his parole then and cost him a transfer back to closed conditions for 6 months. 

In Britain life sentence prisoners are in the hands of the Parole Board who can stretch a prisoner's term to suit their prejudices. Not having a fixed date to work towards is a form of torture in itself. As John said in a recent letter received after his 'apprehension' "Yes it's very depressing being dependent on faceless bureaucrats for some hope of release, especially when you know they possess not a shred of compassion or humanity and certainly no sense of fair play or justice. Being locked up in jail on a long sentence is horrendous enough, but for most long-term prisoners the certainty of a release date at least provides them with a definite hope of release, a cut off point when the hardship and suffering will end and they'll regain their freedom. For those serving life there never is any definite hope of release, just this constant, seemingly endless passage of jail time measured not in the passing of days, weeks, months and years, but in the physical ageing of oneself and the hardening of ones heart in the face of constant parole knock backs and dashed hopes. It definitely requires a particular type of strength to retain one's sanity and humanity in such circumstances, and of course the cruel irony is that those who survive with dignity, courage and grace are usually considered the least suitable for release by the cold, heartless bastards who decide on such matters." 

On top of that, in May this year, during a routine drug test he provided a false positive result for cocaine (a second subsequent test established that he was in fact drug free). Under duress and fearing yet another fit-up was under way to prevent his release and send him back to maximum security again, he absconded. 

At the moment John is facing fresh charges over his absconding whilst on home leave (and resisting arrest) and is potentially likely to suffer a major setback to his eventual release. Therefore it is vital that John is supported through these difficult times and the Scottish Prison Service put on notice that it cannot isolate and persecute prisoners at will. 

Brighton ABC 


write to JB at: 

John Bowden 
Prison No. 6729 
HM Prison Glenochil 
King OMuir Road 
TULLIBODY 
FK10 3AD 
Brighton ABC 
 e-mail: brightonabc@yahoo.co.uk 
 Homepage: http://www.brightonabc.org.uk


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## agricola (Aug 4, 2008)

> predictably sensational





> The incident at the farm quickly escalated into a tense siege situation, with armed anti-terror Police, who were acting on a tip off from an informant, ringing the perimeter. It was at this point that John feared that this was a scene the cops would be only too happy for him not to walk out of alive.


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## JHE (Aug 4, 2008)

Attica said:


> John was convicted for a murder he describes as stupid and a terrible mistake...



Damn!  It was so stupid!  It was a terrible mistake!  I just meant to clip his toenails, but I slipped and found I had skinned him alive, tortured him to death, chopped his head off and popped it in the fridge.  God, how clumsy!


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## Loupylou (Aug 4, 2008)

I think a good book to read about psychopaths is _"Without Conscience"_
by Dr Robert Hare. You will find a lot of Bowden's behaviour described there - particularly playing the victim. How easily people are seduced by psychopaths is amazing, even after they have done something as so heinous (& recent) as holding someone hostage. One should nevertake a psychopath's word for anything. They're very silver-tongued people. Anyone who fails to feel empathy for the victims in these cases has probably got a disordered personality themselves I reckon. Certainly it's very odd that they manage to attract so much sympathy & support.


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## Loupylou (Aug 4, 2008)

agricola said:


> Quote:
> predictably sensational
> 
> Quote:
> The incident at the farm quickly escalated into a tense siege situation, with armed anti-terror Police, who were acting on a tip off from an informant, ringing the perimeter. It was at this point that John feared that this was a scene the cops would be only too happy for him not to walk out of alive.




What a drama queen.


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## Loupylou (Aug 4, 2008)

Attica said:


> Update
> 
> In May this year, long-term prison resister John Bowden went on the run whilst out on a routine shopping trip from HMP Noranside. We can now reveal why he did so when he was so close to a new parole hearing.....
> 
> ...



One would have thought he would like to leave it then. 

I think he's getting all his needs met there isn't he ?


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## untethered (Aug 4, 2008)

Thanks for the update, Attica.

I'm sure all sane and sound people will be glad to hear that Mr Bowden's recent activities should see him detained safely where he belongs for at least another five years.

There is a very good reason why some people receive life (ie. indeterminate) sentences. It's because their crimes are so terrible and their personalities so unpredictable that the trial judge cannot possibly make a reasonable estimation of when, or indeed whether, that person will be safe to release. Mr Bowden's case seems to be the quintessential example of the wisdom of such a policy.


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## Loupylou (Aug 4, 2008)

Attica said:


> write to JB at:
> 
> John Bowden
> Prison No. 6729
> ...




I think I have something more urgent to do.





like rearranging my sock drawer.


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## STFC (Aug 5, 2008)

Attica said:


> Being locked up in jail on a long sentence is horrendous enough...



But looking on the bright side, at least he hasn't had his head chopped off.


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## The Black Hand (Aug 5, 2008)

you missed this;

naysayers fek orrffff


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## phildwyer (Aug 5, 2008)

Attica, this doesn't explain why he absconded.  Any ideas about why he'd do such a foolish thing?  To me it suggests that he is a bit of a nutter.


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## JHE (Aug 5, 2008)

Attica said:


> you missed this;
> 
> naysayers fek orrffff




Good point, Brig.  If we'd noticed that, we'd have said nowt - at least, I would.


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## The Black Hand (Aug 5, 2008)

phildwyer said:


> Attica, this doesn't explain why he absconded.  Any ideas about why he'd do such a foolish thing?  To me it suggests that he is a bit of a nutter.



how the fek do i know, i just copied it.


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## phildwyer (Aug 5, 2008)

Attica said:


> how the fek do i know, i just copied it.



Well you obviously feel strongly about his case.  Doesn't the fact that he absconded give you pause--suggesting as it does that he remains unable to control his impulses?


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## JHE (Aug 5, 2008)

Attica's c&p does offer an explanation of sorts:

_Under duress and fearing yet another fit-up was under way to prevent his release and send him back to maximum security again, he absconded. _​
Mind you, there's nothing there to persuade the sceptical that it would be a good idea to free Mr Bowden.


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## Fullyplumped (Aug 5, 2008)

Attica said:


> As John said in a recent letter received after his 'apprehension' "Yes it's very depressing being dependent on faceless bureaucrats for some hope of release, especially when you know they possess not a shred of compassion or humanity and certainly no sense of fair play or justice. "



They might not have faces, but they do still have their heads connected to their shoulders, unlike his unfortunate victim, Mr Donald Ryan, who was 49 when he was killed and who worked as a park-keeper. You don't hear much abour Mr Ryan from Mr Bowden and his sympathisers. As the trial judge said, "The person who was behind it all was the codefendant, Bowden, who obviously enjoyed inflicting pain and even killing." 

If Mr Bowden had refrained from dismembering Mr Ryan alive with a saw before severing his head with a carving knife and keeping it in his fridge, he would not have needed to endure the terrible injustices he complains of at the hands of these faceless bureaucrats. Perhaps the faceless bureaucrats are thinking more of the interests of park-keepers like Mr Ryan, than those of anarchist pin-ups? 

We may never know.


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## Yelkcub (Aug 5, 2008)

Fullyplumped said:


> If Mr Bowden had refrained from dismembering Mr Ryan alive with a saw before severing his head with a carving knife and keeping it in his fridge, he would not have needed to endure the terrible injustices he complains of at the hands of these faceless bureaucrats. Perhaps the faceless bureaucrats are thinking more of the interests of park-keepers like Mr Ryan, than those of anarchist pin-ups?
> .



Attica probably thinks it was just high jinks.


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## The Black Hand (Aug 5, 2008)

Yelkcub said:


> Attica probably thinks it was just high jinks.



Bollocks.


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## cesare (Aug 5, 2008)

Attica said:


> how the fek do i know, i just copied it.



Ah, but did you read it? 



JHE said:


> Attica's c&p does offer an explanation of sorts:
> 
> _Under duress and fearing yet another fit-up was under way to prevent his release and send him back to maximum security again, he absconded. _​
> Mind you, there's nothing there to persuade the sceptical that it would be a good idea to free Mr Bowden.



I'm thinking probably not.


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## Fullyplumped (Dec 14, 2008)

This was in last week's Sunday Mail -


> Exclusive: Social worker moved from jail over 'emotional relationship' with killer
> 
> Dec 7 2008 By Steve Smith
> 
> ...


Wasn't one of the issues his fan club was raising that he had been stitched up by a social worker's report that linked him with terrorism?

And this is a new detail -


> Bowden, whose small band of supporters organise internet campaigns for his release, spent 18 months on the run after escaping while on compassionate leave in 1992. But he was sent back to jail after being caught for dole fraud and identified by his fingerprints as a prisoner on the run.


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## Danny Rose (Dec 15, 2008)

This is a bit worrying:

"Her boyfriend, who answered the door of their cottage near Auchterarder, said: *"Nobody of that name lives here."*

Has anyone checked the fridge?


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