# Angel pub on Coldharbour Lane becomes arty community space run by Brick Box



## editor (May 4, 2012)

I've already mentioned this in the long-serving thread about the pub, but thought it worthy of a new thread.

The Angel pub on 354 Coldharbour Lane is soon to reopen as 'key community space' run by Brixton Village trendy-arty types, The Brick Box.

They've got a six month trial use of the building.


> The group’s aims over the following six months are to:
> 
> Provide a welcoming, inspiring and safe space for people
> Build an artistic community
> ...


I'm still saddened to see that the pub has gone forever, but at least we're not getting the expected yuppie flats quite yet.

http://www.urban75.org/blog/angel-pub-on-coldharbour-lane-to-become-arty-community-space/


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## gaijingirl (May 4, 2012)

Very similar thing happening in the "French antiques" building on the Tulse Hill Gyratory - which also used to be a bank apparently.  Arty community group types have been doing it up for a few weeks now and have their opening event this Sunday.  Always thought it was a lovely looking building and a shame to be a wreck.  

http://createslondon.tumblr.com/


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## crawl (May 5, 2012)

Does that mean they aren't going to serve beers?  Been hoping it would open up as a pub so I can just stumble from the corner back to home. All of my "safe places" include booze


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## editor (May 5, 2012)

There'll be no beers served there again as a normal pub, I fancy.


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## Brixton Hatter (May 8, 2012)

Interesting. Good the building will be used (for a short time anyway). I wonder what sort of events/activities there will be? There's a fair bit of guff on their website ("we work in your imagination....") but fair play to them if they're going to do something interesting which gets local people involved.


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## jezg (May 10, 2012)

Saltoun Supper Club are doing a special dinner event with Brick Box on the 19th May and it says venue tbc so I guess it could be hosted here.


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## editor (May 15, 2012)

Here's what they're offering:


> We are delighted to present the inaugural event at a beautiful new venue. This is a collaboration between The Brick Box and the famous Saltoun Supper Club.
> 
> A sensual and sumptuous feast of the most unprecedented kind offering up rare delicacies, exquisite aromas, and bizarre discoveries. An evening of curious and delightful entertainment to quicken the circulation and stimulate the liver.
> 
> ...


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## CH1 (May 15, 2012)

Seems a bit up-market for me. The Crown and Anchor has opened my eyes to the grottiness of the Beehive, which is traumatic in itself. I shall stick with the Fish and Chip shop next door, unless there are rave reviews! (Do you have to work for the BBC or Channel 4 to go there?)
P.S. Good to see the place used though.


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## Mrs Magpie (May 15, 2012)

editor said:


> Here's what they're offering:


 


> _lounge with fops and dandies in the Opium Den_


 Oh really?


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## editor (May 15, 2012)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Oh really?


It's going to hurt me to look out of my window and see this bunch of fucking idiots prancing about in the Angel of all places.


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## fortyplus (May 15, 2012)

editor said:


> It's going to hurt me to look out of my window and see this bunch of fucking idiots prancing about in the Angel of all places.


Let's have a whipround for the £40 so you can go along and join in, you old curmudgeon.


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## hmmph (May 15, 2012)

editor said:


> It's going to hurt me to look out of my window and see this bunch of fucking idiots prancing about in the Angel of all places.


 
more than seeing it boarded up and empty?


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## Kanda (May 15, 2012)

As posted on your FB: Good luck to Arno, really nice guy. He had to expand out of his flat at some point!


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## boohoo (May 15, 2012)

editor said:


> It's going to hurt me to look out of my window and see this bunch of fucking idiots prancing about in the Angel of all places.


 
Is it better to keep it closed and discourage enterprise, opportunity and a new space for people to meet? If the super club is the first to see the opportunity there, then good on them!


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## editor (May 15, 2012)

hmmph said:


> more than seeing it boarded up and empty?


I thought we were getting a community art space, not a venue for private yuppie supper nights.


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## Kanda (May 15, 2012)

Saltoun Supper Club has been around for years, good luck to them. It's a bit more than just Supper Club though....


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## editor (May 15, 2012)

boohoo said:


> Is it better to keep it closed and discourage enterprise, opportunity and a new space for people to meet?


Christ, you're sounding like Brixton Green. I'm happy to see the place being used again but forgive me if my heart doesn't leap with joy at the prospect of it being occupied by a "Hysteria Treatment Room with lounge with fops and dandies in the Opium Den." For forty quid a head.


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## Kanda (May 15, 2012)

editor said:


> Christ, you're sounding like Brixton Green. I'm happy to see the place being used again but forgive me if my heart doesn't leap with joy at the prospect of it being occupied by a "Hysteria Treatment Room with lounge with fops and dandies in the Opium Den." For forty quid a head.


 
£5/head if you don't want food.


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## editor (May 15, 2012)

Kanda said:


> Saltoun Supper Club has been around for years, good luck to them. It's a bit more than just Supper Club though....


You don't think the £40 a head price tag is perhaps not the best way to introduce yourself to the area, given the pub's heritage and the local economy, no?


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## editor (May 15, 2012)

Kanda said:


> £5/head if you don't want food.


A fiver a head to walk around a building?


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## Kanda (May 15, 2012)

editor said:


> A fiver a head to walk around a building?


 
Well I don't know, I don't know exactly what they're doing. In their blurb, it's an 'event' where they put stuff on, live art and theatre among them...


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## Kanda (May 15, 2012)

editor said:


> You don't think the £40 a head price tag is perhaps not the best way to introduce yourself to the area, given the pub's heritage and the local economy, no?


 
Introduce himself to the area? He's been doing Supper Club for years just down the road... Saltoun Rd.


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## editor (May 15, 2012)

Kanda said:


> Introduce himself to the area? He's been doing Supper Club for years just down the road... Saltoun Rd.


Oh come on, get real. Saltoun Road is *nothing* like this stretch of Coldharbour Lane neither does it share the same history or demographics.


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## London_Calling (May 15, 2012)

Wasn't it him posting on here as Soulton Pepper*?

* summin like that, anyway ..


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## editor (May 15, 2012)

Mind you, this will do wonders for 'softening' up the profile of the building for potential flat purchasers.


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## London_Calling (May 15, 2012)

editor said:


> Oh come on, get real. Saltoun Road is *nothing* like this stretch of Coldharbour Lane neither does it sharer the same history or demographics.


It's about 600 yards, isn't it?


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## Kanda (May 15, 2012)

editor said:


> Oh come on, get real. Saltoun Road is *nothing* like this stretch of Coldharbour Lane neither does it share the same history or demographics.


 
Well, it is now, with the Market changing and all that... 

You're micro dividing Brixton up now?


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## Dan U (May 15, 2012)

thats definitely an inclusive community space


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## Kanda (May 15, 2012)

Dan U said:


> thats definitely an inclusive community space


 
It's an 'inaugral event'. Not like they're doing it every night....

Some laughable selective reading going on here


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## editor (May 15, 2012)

London_Calling said:


> It's about 600 yards, isn't it?


Do you want to compare housing prices? If you think the two areas are identical you're living in dream land. 

Just to make it clear: Saltoun Supper Club ain't my thing, but I wish them all the best.

I just think putting on a dressy-uppy, hoity-toity £40 bash in a now-closed traditional black Brixton pub in an area surrounded by social housing isn't the greatest idea.


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## editor (May 15, 2012)

Kanda said:


> It's an 'inaugral event'. Not like they're doing it every night....


 Inaugural events are usually there to set the tone of the place. Do you think it's appropriate for the area?


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## Kanda (May 15, 2012)

editor said:


> Inaugural events are usually there to set the tone of the place. Do you think it's appropriate for the area?


 
With how the Market has gone? It's inevitable.. appropriate? Dunno, prolly not, I haven't seen what their plans are to make it an 'involving community space' yet.


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## gabi (May 15, 2012)

£40 for four courses, cocktail and entertainment aint bad


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## CH1 (May 15, 2012)

editor said:


> I thought we were getting a community art space, not a venue for private yuppie supper nights.


What you are getting is Lexadon preparing the way for their development and protecting the property until they are ready to do the work.  You and I get a piss-elegant licensed squat to look at, at least temporarily.  And the lads and lasses of "My Fathers Place" "William Hills" etc get acclimatised to the encroaching yuppies.  Maybe Lexadon think a "Supper Club" is like Brixton Tube station playing classical music - makes undesirables feel really uncomfortable apparently.  
Meanwhile Lexadon/Lambeth are busy evicting the Somali/Eritrean/South Sudanese/Ugandan refugee organisations from 365 Brixton Road, and also plan to demolish the former Lambeth Register Office wedding suite so they can have a vile mini "Viaduct" development near the corner of Gresham Road/Brixton Road.
For what appears to be a totally private (i.e. unquoted) company - c.f. Barratts- you have to admit Lexadon have amazing chutzpah.


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## editor (May 15, 2012)

gabi said:


> £40 for four courses, cocktail and entertainment aint bad


If you've got a job and cash to spare, sure.


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## teuchter (May 15, 2012)

editor said:


> I just think putting on a dressy-uppy, hoity-toity £40 bash in a now-closed traditional black Brixton pub in an area surrounded by social housing isn't the greatest idea.


 
No doubt you also disapprove of the Dogstar and the Windmill? And the Grosvenor?


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## gabi (May 15, 2012)

well.. ive got a job. and just enough cash to cover that. but i still wouldnt want to go to that wankfest. i can only imagine the level of cuntery goin on in the 'Opium Den'


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## Kanda (May 15, 2012)

Saltoun do events in the Dogstar too...


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## Mrs Magpie (May 15, 2012)

To be honest I'd have a lot more respect for this sort of thing if it provided work for local people. It never does.


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## CH1 (May 15, 2012)

Mrs Magpie said:


> To be honest I'd have a lot more respect for this sort of thing if it provided work for local people. It never does.


Social cleansing?


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## teuchter (May 15, 2012)

Frothy, frivolous and fun, the Actionettes won’t just be eating cake, they’ll also be jumping out of a giant gateau, sending their enemies to the Go-Go cages and hosting Russian cake roulette


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## editor (May 15, 2012)

teuchter said:


> No doubt you also disapprove of the Dogstar and the Windmill? And the Grosvenor?


Have they been closed and taken over for £40 supper club nights then?


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## Kanda (May 15, 2012)

teuchter said:


> Frothy, frivolous and fun, the Actionettes won’t just be eating cake, they’ll also be jumping out of a giant gateau, sending their enemies to the Go-Go cages and hosting Russian cake roulette


 
But it's free.. etc


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## editor (May 15, 2012)

teuchter said:


> Frothy, frivolous and fun, the Actionettes won’t just be eating cake, they’ll also be jumping out of a giant gateau, sending their enemies to the Go-Go cages and hosting Russian cake roulette


In a FREE night in a  pub full of locals, you clueless oaf. Most of the Actionettes have lived in Brixton or thereabouts for years on end too.

Cheap shot. Pathetic.


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## teuchter (May 15, 2012)

editor said:


> Have they been closed and taken over for £40 supper club nights then?


 
I should think it's not in any way unusual for someone to spend £40 in a night at any of those venues.


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## editor (May 15, 2012)

Kanda said:


> Saltoun do events in the Dogstar too...


Do they take over the entire pub and charge people £5 just to walk about?

Way to go to miss the point.


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## editor (May 15, 2012)

teuchter said:


> I should think it's not in any way unusual for someone to spend £40 in a night at any of those venues.


Perhaps you do, but I certainly don't.


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## Kanda (May 15, 2012)

editor said:


> Do they take over the entire pub and charge people £5 just to walk about?
> 
> Way to go to miss the point.


 
I was just letting Teuchter know.. calm down fella.


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## editor (May 15, 2012)

Kanda said:


> I was just letting Teuchter know.. calm down fella.


I haven't got a problem at all with the Supper Club and if they want to hire upstairs rooms at the Dogstar or whatever to put on events, that's great.


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## editor (May 15, 2012)

Kanda said:


> But it's free.. etc


With an absolutely fantastic socialist band playing live too.


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## teuchter (May 15, 2012)

editor said:


> Do they take over the entire pub and charge people £5 just to walk about?


 
£5 in to the Windmill quite often.


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## teuchter (May 15, 2012)

editor said:


> I haven't got a problem at all with the Supper Club and if they want to hire upstairs rooms at the Dogstar or whatever to put on events, that's great.


 
Why's it ok for them to do it in the Dogstar but not in the Angel?


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## editor (May 15, 2012)

teuchter said:


> £5 in to the Windmill quite often.


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## editor (May 15, 2012)

teuchter said:


> Why's it ok for them to do it in the Dogstar but not in the Angel?


You really can't work this one out for yourself? Go on. Have a think.


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## teuchter (May 15, 2012)

editor said:


> You really can't work this one out for yourself? Go on. Have a think.


 
NIMBYism?


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## editor (May 15, 2012)

teuchter said:


> NIMBYism?


How does that work then? Go on, try and construct a point that makes some sort of real-world sense. I'm sure you can manage if if you actually think things through here.


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## editor (May 15, 2012)

If I was opening a community arts venture in a neighbourhood, I'd maybe start by inviting the local community in for an open day and tell them all about what we're up to, rather than launching with an exclusive supper club bash. 

Seems more appropriate to me. 

But each to their own.


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## Winot (May 15, 2012)

editor said:


> I just think putting on a dressy-uppy, hoity-toity £40 bash in a now-closed traditional black Brixton pub in an area surrounded by social housing isn't the greatest idea.


 
They'd have got into all sorts of trouble if they'd put on a "traditional black Brixton" night though, wouldn't they.


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## teuchter (May 15, 2012)

editor said:


> How does that work then? Go on, try and construct a point that makes some sort of real-world sense. I'm sure you can manage if if you actually think things through here.


 
You actively promote Brixton nightlife with the Brixtonbuzz website amongst other stuff. And do a good job of it. You also run regular nights and do a good job of that too. And yet you are objecting to a new nightlife venue in Brixton. Why?
- Because they are using a building that was once a pub? It's in no way unique in that regard.
- Because they are charging for entry? Again in no way unique in that regard. £5 is not expensive for a night of entertainment.
- Because they are offering food? Plenty of other places in Brixton offering food and plenty where you could spend £35 for less than a four course meal.
- Because it will attract "yuppies"? A large chunk of Brixton's nightlife scene is entirely dependant on relatively affluent young folk. There's absolutely nothing new there. There are already plenty of clubs that regularly charge £15/£20 plus to get in and then £4 for a bottle of beer at the bar.
- Because you can see it from your window? This seems the most plausible reason to me.


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## Kanda (May 15, 2012)

Why did the Angel shut down in the first place? Lack of punters or cuntish brewery?


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## Winot (May 15, 2012)

Kanda said:


> Why did the Angel shut down in the first place? Lack of punters or cuntish brewery?



Lack of opium eaters.


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## editor (May 15, 2012)

teuchter said:


> - Because you can see it from your window? This seems the most plausible reason to me.


Try reading what I've actually written instead of indulging in your usual tedious and disruptive scattergun personal attacks. I've already explained the reasons why I'm not that impressed with a £40 event taking place at this venue and NIMBYism is none of them.


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## editor (May 15, 2012)

Kanda said:


> Why did the Angel shut down in the first place? Lack of punters or cuntish brewery?


I think it struggled to compete with the cheap booze on offer in the nearby shops. I imagine with a bit of imagination - and perhaps some help from the right quarters - the pub could still be operating in some format or another, but traditional businesses rarely get such help.

The pub has a very rich history indeed - it was one of the first Brixton pubs to “sell drinks to coloured people” – and before that there's an interesting Victorian circus connection. I knew it best as a friendly, traditional West Indian pub. It was a shame to see it go.


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## Mrs Magpie (May 15, 2012)

...and it had spotless loos!


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## gabi (May 15, 2012)

Kanda said:


> Why did the Angel shut down in the first place? Lack of punters or cuntish brewery?


 
Lack of customers i think. I used to live next door to it. Was totally empty a lot of the time. The couple of times i did go in i was greeted with much suspicion and hostility. Not missed.


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## editor (May 15, 2012)

gabi said:


> Lack of customers i think. I used to live next door to it. Was totally empty a lot of the time. The couple of times i did go in i was greeted with much suspicion and hostility. Not missed.


Can't say I found the folks there anything other than welcoming and friendly.


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## Mrs Magpie (May 15, 2012)

editor said:


> Can't say I found the folks there anything other than welcoming and friendly.


Ditto


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## Gramsci (May 15, 2012)

teuchter said:


> You actively promote Brixton nightlife with the Brixtonbuzz website amongst other stuff. And do a good job of it. You also run regular nights and do a good job of that too. And yet you are objecting to a new nightlife venue in Brixton. Why?
> - Because they are using a building that was once a pub? It's in no way unique in that regard.
> - Because they are charging for entry? Again in no way unique in that regard. £5 is not expensive for a night of entertainment.
> - Because they are offering food? Plenty of other places in Brixton offering food and plenty where you could spend £35 for less than a four course meal.
> ...


 
Because I think its advertising itself as a community centre. The list you make is for business enterprises something which is completely different to a community centre.


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## editor (May 15, 2012)

teuchter said:


> There are already plenty of clubs that regularly charge £15/£20 plus to get in and then £4 for a bottle of beer at the bar.


Could you list some of these plentiful Brixton clubs regularly charging "£15/£20 plus to get in and then £4 for a bottle of beer at the bar," please?

Thanks.


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## Kanda (May 15, 2012)

editor said:


> Could you list some of these plentiful Brixton clubs regularly charging "£15/£20 plus to get in and then £4 for a bottle of beer at the bar," please?
> 
> Thanks.


 
How much is a passport? In some clubs a passport is required for entry


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## Mrs Magpie (May 15, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> Because I think its advertising itself as a community centre. The list you make is for business enterprises something which is completely different to a community centre.


Exactly.


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## Winot (May 15, 2012)

To be fair to Brick Box, their set-up in the Villaage hasn't been exclusive in the least - cheap food and free art events for kids.  So I respectfully suggest that the naysayers wait a bit and see what actually happens, rather than getting the knives out before they've even started.


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## Monkeygrinder's Organ (May 15, 2012)

Winot said:


> They'd have got into all sorts of trouble if they'd put on a "traditional black Brixton" night though, wouldn't they.


 
Just imagining the thread that would ensue on here is making me laugh.


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## Mrs Magpie (May 15, 2012)

I avoid bits of Granville Arcade now. I was walking through, laden with veg and one of a brace of hipsters loudly said that Brixton would be great if it wasn't for the chavvy people. Had my shopping been a little lighter and I was a little less knackered I would have swung a bag of spuds and carrots at him. I've lived here for a very long time and it made my blood boil.


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## editor (May 15, 2012)

Winot said:


> To be fair to Brick Box, their set-up in the Villaage hasn't been exclusive in the least - cheap food and free art events for kids. So I respectfully suggest that the naysayers wait a bit and see what actually happens, rather than getting the knives out before they've even started.


I haven't objected to Brick Box: it's just this hoity toity launch night that I think isn't the greatest idea.

I'd much rather the building be used for something than nothing, even if it is only a temporary measure designed to eventually help the developers extract maximum return on their investment.


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## London_Calling (May 15, 2012)

Winot said:


> To be fair to Brick Box, their set-up in the Villaage hasn't been exclusive in the least - cheap food and free art events for kids. So I respectfully suggest that the naysayers wait a bit and see what actually happens, rather than getting the knives out before they've even started.


On Urban?

/Does not compute.com


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## Mrs Magpie (May 15, 2012)

I really do object to the branding of it as some sort of a community centre.


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## el-ahrairah (May 15, 2012)

Winot said:


> Lack of opium eaters.


 
The great Brixton Fop Shortage of 1950-2010


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## Minnie_the_Minx (May 15, 2012)

Mrs Magpie said:


> I avoid bits of Granville Arcade now. I was walking through, laden with veg and one of a brace of hipsters loudly said that Brixton would be great if it wasn't for the chavvy people. Had my shopping been a little lighter and I was a little less knackered I would have swung a bag of spuds and carrots at him. I've lived here for a very long time and it made my blood boil.


 
What a cunt


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## spanglechick (May 15, 2012)

editor said:


> Do they take over the entire pub and charge people £5 just to walk about?
> 
> Way to go to miss the point.


Hmm. The actual format of the entertainment is a long way from my tastes, and I can see its disappointing / annoying that what had been hoped to be an 'old Brixton' friendly community arts space appears more likely to be targeted at the lower-middle class professional demographic of Brixton village...  But I must take issue with the above: 

It's live performance. There will be performers there who certainly won't be earning union rates. Should they not at least be in with a chance of having their expenses paid? Why should you expect actors to work for free?


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## editor (May 15, 2012)

spanglechick said:


> It's live performance. There will be performers there who certainly won't be earning union rates. Should they not at least be in with a chance of having their expenses paid? Why should you expect actors to work for free?


Blimey, that's some twist on the story.

I'm all for professional actors and performers having their fees paid (even though I doubt these will all be professional actors), but I'm not entirely sure what it has to do with the point about whether an exclusive £40 supper club is the most appropriate way to launch this 'community arts space'.


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## Kanda (May 15, 2012)

It'll be gone in 3 months anyway.... meh


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## spanglechick (May 15, 2012)

Because in the post I quoted you said "do they take over the entire pub and charge people £5 just to walk about"

Brick box are charging people five pounds for live entertainment. Live entertainers should be paid. And it's the kind of work pro actors are constantly faced with doing for free, to build their CVs or because they find this kind of work artistically fulfilling. that £5 isn't "just to walk about" - it will hopefully cover their expenses. 

What you posted was dismissive of what they were doing and the appropriateness of that being charged for at the door.


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## spanglechick (May 15, 2012)

Fucksake. £5 a ticket is less than some school plays.


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## editor (May 15, 2012)

spanglechick said:


> Because in the post I quoted you said "do they take over the entire pub and charge people £5 just to walk about"
> 
> Brick box are charging people five pounds for live entertainment. Live entertainers should be paid. And it's the kind of work pro actors are constantly faced with doing for free, to build their CVs or because they find this kind of work artistically fulfilling. that £5 isn't "just to walk about" - it will hopefully cover their expenses.
> 
> What you posted was dismissive of what they were doing and the appropriateness of that being charged for at the door.


You've no idea if they're pro/wannabe actors or just people happy to do it for fun, not that this is really the point anyway. I charge nothing for live entertainers and I make sure their expenses are covered, although many are happy to do it for a beer or two, just like I often do.


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## CH1 (May 15, 2012)

gabi said:


> Lack of customers i think. I used to live next door to it. Was totally empty a lot of the time. The couple of times i did go in i was greeted with much suspicion and hostility. Not missed.


The original landlord Ricky claimed he was framed in a police raid. They planted cocaine in the gents toilet cistern he said (at the Police Consultative Group).  Either way that probably frightened off the more youthful customers, in it's previous incarnation. When it reopened for a while with new dolly bird bar staff whose eyes were glued to Sky TV it was way too expensive to get the punters back from the Beehive.
Not sure about the brewery bit - I suspect it was a genuine free house in it's final incarnation. Since the new owners had paid £505,000 for it and sold it for and much larger sum, I don't think you can cast it as a precursor of the "Sun and Doves".


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## Minnie_the_Minx (May 15, 2012)

Anyone got any new news on the Sun and Doves?  Been sitting there empty for too long


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## editor (May 15, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Anyone got any new news on the Sun and Doves? Been sitting there empty for too long


Rumour was that Antic were buying it.
http://www.urban75.net/forums/threa...y-brewery-after-huge-rent-rises.281670/page-5


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## Minnie_the_Minx (May 15, 2012)

Cheers Ed, missed that


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## spanglechick (May 15, 2012)

editor said:


> You've no idea if they're pro/wannabe actors or just people happy to do it for fun, not that this is really the point anyway. I charge nothing for live entertainers and I make sure their expenses are covered, although many are happy to do it for a beer or two, just like I often do.


Is it a licences venue then, that can afford to pay performer expenses from the profit they make at the bar? Theatre rarely works like that. It generally has to charge admission to cover essential costs. 

Like expenses.


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## teuchter (May 15, 2012)

editor said:


> Could you list some of these plentiful Brixton clubs regularly charging "£15/£20 plus to get in and then £4 for a bottle of beer at the bar," please?
> 
> Thanks.


 
Plan B
Electric Brixton
The Academy
414
Dex or whatever it's called this week
Jamm
[Mass when it was still open]
Dogstar sometimes


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## teuchter (May 15, 2012)

spanglechick said:


> Is it a licences venue then, that can afford to pay performer expenses from the profit they make at the bar? Theatre rarely works like that. It generally has to charge admission to cover essential costs.
> 
> Like expenses.


 
Exactly; it's hardly fair to compare with somewhere like the Albert that puts on nights where lots of people are likely to drink quite a lot and spend at the bar. Although it might technically be "free" it still makes money for the venue. Especially if they can get away with paying performers next to nothing.


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## editor (May 15, 2012)

teuchter said:


> Plan B
> Electric Brixton
> The Academy
> 414
> ...


At least try an honest argument. Please. The Academy isn't a club. It's a *live venue*, as are most of the names on your pointless list.
And the Dogstar does not regularly charge £15/£20 to get in for a club night, neither does the 414 or Plan B.


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## editor (May 15, 2012)

teuchter said:


> Exactly; it's hardly fair to compare with somewhere like the Albert that puts on nights where lots of people are likely to drink quite a lot and spend at the bar. Although it might technically be "free" it still makes money for the venue. Especially if they can get away with paying performers next to nothing.


The venue doesn't "get away" with "paying performers next to nothing" not that you've got the slightest clue what you're on about.


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## teuchter (May 15, 2012)

editor said:


> At least try an honest argument. Please. The Academy isn't a club. It's a *live venue*, as are most of the names on your pointless list.
> And the Dogstar does not regularly charge £15/£20 to get in for a club night, neither does the 414 or Plan B.


 
I have been to club nights at the Academy and I have paid more than £15 for them. I have been going to club nights and paying that much at *all* of the venues in my list, for the past ten years and you calling it a "pointless" list isn't going to change that. Sometimes they are cheaper. I'm not saying they charge that much every single night. Neither is the ex-Angel running "hoity-toity" nights every night. Nor is it even charging anything approaching £15 for it's "hoity-toity" night.


----------



## teuchter (May 15, 2012)

editor said:


> The venue doesn't "get away" with "paying performers next to nothing" not that you've got the slightest clue what you're on about.


You're the one that said performers including yourself are happy to play for expenses or a drink or two.


----------



## teuchter (May 15, 2012)

.


----------



## editor (May 15, 2012)

teuchter said:


> I have been to club nights at the Academy and I have paid more than £15 for them. I have been to club nights and paid that much at *all* of the venues in my list. Sometimes they are cheaper than that. I am not saying they charge that much every single night. Neither is the ex-Angel running "hoity-toity" nights every night. Nor is it even charging anything approaching £15 for it's "hoity-toity" night.


You're comparing an all night club night with big name DJs at the Academy with a £40 supper club evening in a small pub? Jeez.  

And what about the rest of the clubs on that list? You're just talking made-up bollocks that you can't even attempt to back up, aren't you?


----------



## editor (May 15, 2012)

teuchter said:


> You're the one that said performers including yourself are happy to play for expenses or a drink or two.


The clue being "happy to play" for beers or whatever, and not being exploited by the management which your clueless post inferred.


----------



## teuchter (May 15, 2012)

editor said:


> You're comparing an all night club night with big name DJs at the Academy with a £40 supper club evening in a small pub? Jeez.


 
Eh?

You asked for a list of clubs charging £15+ entry in Brixton, implying that such a thing did not exist.

I gave you an extensive list.

You said that the Academy wasn't a club.

I said that it was.

You seem to accept now that it runs club nights, but now you are implying that I was trying to say that a club night at the Academy is equivalent to the thing at the Angel.

Trying to have a discussion with you is like trying to argue with a goldfish.

Or is it a myth that they can only remember the past 30 seconds? I can't remember.




AND
£40 is for a four course meal.
£5 is the entry to the Angel to see the performances.


----------



## teuchter (May 15, 2012)

editor said:


> The clue being "happy to play" for beers or whatever, and not being exploited by the management which your clueless post inferred.


 
I said the venue can get away with paying people very little. This statement is true, based on the information you provided.


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## Gramsci (May 15, 2012)

spanglechick said:


> Because in the post I quoted you said "do they take over the entire pub and charge people £5 just to walk about"
> 
> Brick box are charging people five pounds for live entertainment. Live entertainers should be paid. And it's the kind of work pro actors are constantly faced with doing for free, to build their CVs or because they find this kind of work artistically fulfilling. that £5 isn't "just to walk about" - it will hopefully cover their expenses.
> 
> What you posted was dismissive of what they were doing and the appropriateness of that being charged for at the door.


 
There is nothing on Brick Box FB page saying the £5 is to pay performers. The £40 is to cover the cost of food provided by the Supper Club and a cocktail. So I assume Supper Club are being paid.

I can see your point about entertainers being paid but you are making an assumption here.


----------



## Kanda (May 15, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> There is nothing on Brick Box FB page saying the £5 is to pay performers. The £40 is to cover the cost of food provided by the Supper Club and a cocktail. So I assume Supper Club are being paid.
> 
> I can see your point about entertainers being paid but you are making an assumption here.


 
Yes, 2 types of ticket. One with food (£40), one without(£5). There will be artists/performers and such there...  it's not that big a leap is it to guess they're either paying people or covering costs?


----------



## Gramsci (May 15, 2012)

Kanda said:


> Yes, 2 types of ticket. One with food (£40), one without(£5). There will be artists/performers and such there... it's not that big a leap is it to guess they're either paying people or covering costs?


 
I said I assume the Supper Club are doing it as a commercial concern as its and extra £35 ( that includes cocktail) It is a leap to assume that the £5 goes to the performers.


----------



## Gramsci (May 15, 2012)

I think this thread is showing that there are different conceptions of what is a Community centre.

There is now a blurring of the lines between business and charity type projects called that is termed Social Enterprise.

Even Emma Harrison of whose business is "helping" the unemployed claims she is a social entrepeneur.


----------



## editor (May 15, 2012)

teuchter said:


> You asked for a list of clubs charging £15+ entry in Brixton, implying that such a thing did not exist.


You claimed that "there are already plenty of clubs that regularly charge £15/£20 plus to get in and then £4 for a bottle of beer at the bar."

You then supported that daft claim with a list of live music venues hosting big name acts and some actual clubs that DO NOT regularly charge such amounts. I know you're mustard keen to try and personally attack me at every opportunity, but this is truly desperate stuff indeed.


----------



## clandestino (May 15, 2012)

gaijingirl said:


> Very similar thing happening in the "French antiques" building on the Tulse Hill Gyratory - which also used to be a bank apparently. Arty community group types have been doing it up for a few weeks now and have their opening event this Sunday. Always thought it was a lovely looking building and a shame to be a wreck.
> 
> http://createslondon.tumblr.com/


 
This looks really interesting. I guess you were probably too busy to go? I wish I'd known about it...


----------



## RaverDrew (May 15, 2012)

editor said:


> I just think putting on a dressy-uppy, hoity-toity £40 bash in a now-closed traditional black Brixton pub in an area surrounded by social housing isn't the greatest idea.


 
No different to a cheap working class pub like the Goose shutting down and being turned into a poncy overpriced hipster hell hole. Yet you seemed to champion that move at every opportunity.

Double Standards.


----------



## quimcunx (May 15, 2012)

Not sure how a meal and cocktails with entertainment is somehow worth less than a club night. £40 seems reasonable for what it is. 


That said it does seem like the community it's hoping to serve is the section that is already using brixton village rather than the people who so happen to live in the community and are perhaps lacking community social opportunities through not affording or wanting £40 supper events. 

Will have to see what else comes up. 

Mural preservation society exhibition?


----------



## editor (May 15, 2012)

RaverDrew said:


> No different to a cheap working class pub like the Goose shutting down and being turned into a poncy overpriced hipster hell hole. Yet you seemed to champion that move at every opportunity.
> 
> Double Standards.


How does that work then? The Goose was a dreadful dump (read the reviews), and when it reopened as the RIN it served better beer, wasn't particualtly expensive (certainly less than some nearby boozers), it put on free entertainment and wasn't exclusive in the slightest.

That was a story about a pub _surviving_ and staying open for all the community to use. This isn't. Try getting with the story before putting the boot in.


----------



## editor (May 15, 2012)

quimcunx said:


> That said it does seem like the community it's hoping to serve is the section that is already using brixton village rather than the people who so happen to live in the community and are perhaps lacking community social opportunities through not affording or wanting £40 supper events.


Indeed.


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## editor (May 15, 2012)

Just to help RaverDrew take off his rose tinted glasses, here's a contemporary review of The Goose:


> One visit to here will change your life forever. A disgrace. A show up. A stain on Brixton.
> The horrific memories of visiting this shambles of a pub will stay with you till the grave. The funny smells, the dour decor, the random bumps and lumps in the floor, the cesspit that is the toilets, the rude locals, the Del Boy Trotter wannabe “manager”, the brain melting background music…..
> The glasses are never clean, the kitchen is never open, the disabled toilets smell like a sewage plant, the regular toilet is always flooded, the whole pub is falling apart.
> AVOID AVOID AVOID AVOID!!!!!
> ...


More 'rave' reviews here: http://www.beerintheevening.com/pubs/s/10/10486/Goose/Brixton


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## Mrs Magpie (May 15, 2012)

quimcunx said:


> That said it does seem like the community it's hoping to serve is the section that is already using brixton village rather than the people who so happen to live in the community and are perhaps lacking community social opportunities through not affording or wanting £40 supper events.


Well quite. If you look at the Super Output Area (small area for statistical stuff) it has one of the highest proportions of poverty, disability, mental illness, unemployment, deprivation in general in the country and this community event is much more 'Brixton Villagey' than the SOE it's in.


----------



## Mrs Magpie (May 15, 2012)

I love Brixton and over the decades I've seen a lot of changes, good and bad. I've always lived on an estate and they are full of people who rarely benefit from a lot that happens. I just think that a lot of groups are setting up shop and talking about 'the community'. There's a whole lot of people that are invisible to them. A whole lot of people who are being shat upon from a great height and it was ever thus. At the moment there seem be be more arses above than ever before and lots of people are drowning in the shit.


----------



## RaverDrew (May 15, 2012)

editor said:


> How does that work then? The Goose was a dreadful dump (read the reviews), and when it reopened as the RIN it served better beer


Subjective, there was plenty of choice of bargain priced lagers, ciders, and ales in the Goose, and I personally never had a dodgy pint in there.


> wasn't particualtly expensive (certainly less than some nearby boozers)


I can't think of a single place nearby that was more expensive at the time, being charged £4 for a can of Red Stripe was a total piss-take.


> it put on free entertainment and wasn't exclusive in the slightest.


Some people don't want to be blasted with shit indie bands when they go out for a drink, there's plenty of live music venues in the area for that kind of thing. Not exclusive in the slightest ? Compare the mix of the crowd that went in there before with afterwards ? I seem to remember it also had a sign outside saying "no sportswear, no workwear" The Goose wasn't to everyone's tastes but served a section of the community in Brixton who have been here for years, often displaced from places like The Angel. Ivan's Retreat/Rest is noise appealed to mainly a young hip crowd, not the kind of people you'd see too much of in Brixton before it opened.


> That was a story about a pub _surviving_ and staying open for all the community to use. This isn't. Try getting with the story before putting the boot in.


You can't just embrace and encourage gentrification one minute, then moan about it the next when it turns up on your doorstep.


----------



## RaverDrew (May 15, 2012)

editor said:


> Just to help RaverDrew take off his rose tinted glasses, here's a contemporary review of The Goose:
> 
> More 'rave' reviews here: http://www.beerintheevening.com/pubs/s/10/10486/Goose/Brixton


 
Like I said, it wasn't to everyone's tastes


----------



## teuchter (May 15, 2012)

editor said:


> You then supported that daft claim with a list of live music venues hosting big name acts and some actual clubs that DO NOT regularly charge such amounts.


 

You seem to think that putting stuff in capital letters makes it true.

There ARE lots of venues in Brixton that put on club nights and DO regularly charge such amounts.

I can go further and back up my capital letters with evidence though:

Electric Brixton this Friday £25

Jamm in a couple of weeks £15 main release

Plan B in a couple of weeks £15 main release

Brixton Academy £32 last weekend

414 in a couple of weeks £12 unless you turn up in the first hour

Brixton Clubhouse (ex Dex) in a couplel of weeks £15 on the door

There you go, a quick look reveals 6 club nights in Brixton within a couple of weeks of today, average price £19.


----------



## teuchter (May 15, 2012)

editor said:


> I know you're mustard keen to try and personally attack me at every opportunity


 
This is rubbish by the way; I simply challenge you when you are posting nonsense, and your disengenious responses only fuel the desire to continue to not let you get away with it.


----------



## Mrs Magpie (May 15, 2012)

RaverDrew said:


> Subjective, there was plenty of choice of bargain priced lagers, ciders, and ales in the Goose, and I personally never had a dodgy pint in there.


I remember it for the worst pie and mash I have ever eaten in my life. Never before have I seen pastry that so closely resembled hardboard in every respect and the claggy lumpy lukewarm gravy on top did little to disguise the fact. The pint that came with it was good enough though.


----------



## editor (May 15, 2012)

teuchter said:


> You seem to think that putting stuff in capital letters makes it true.
> 
> There ARE lots of venues in Brixton that put on club nights and DO regularly charge such amounts.
> 
> ...


FFS. How can you be this stupid?

They're all GIGS with well known performers/bands and DJs, not club nights. And £12 is not £15, even if your highly confused, twisty world.


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## editor (May 15, 2012)

RaverDrew said:


> Compare the mix of the crowd that went in there before with afterwards ?.


There was no mix of people because it was almost always totally empty because it was such a dreadful dire pub.

The Rest Is Noise certainly wouldn't have been my first choice of pub to replace it, but it was quiet in the week and you could get a pint of London Pride there for £2.90. The food wasn't bad either and not too pricey.

Their quizzes were painful though.

http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/rest-is-noise-bar-pub-brixton.231094/


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## RaverDrew (May 15, 2012)

Mrs Magpie said:


> I remember it for the worst pie and mash I have ever eaten in my life. Never before have I seen pastry that so closely resembled hardboard in every respect and the claggy lumpy lukewarm gravy on top did little to disguise the fact. The pint that came with it was good enough though.


 
Yeah, actually my main memory of the food in there was waiting an hour for fish n chips one NYE. It turned up still cold in the middle but I had no time to send it back or go eat elsewhere so chanced it. I then spent the rest of the night doubled up in pain. Didn't bother with the food there ever again. 

I rarely go to pubs for food though tbf. For me pubs are all about the booze and good company, and the Goose was always great value for both.


----------



## editor (May 15, 2012)

Here's a thread about the pub's demise. I still stand by my words too:



> I liked the Rest is Noise: it's true it was a bit Hoxton at times, but they still let in loads of the old boys, some of the music was interesting, they had real ales and it was a fair musical mix too - Blacker Dread did regular nights there and I saw a loads of bands for free.


Other urban comments:



			
				TwistedAM said:
			
		

> I really liked what they did with the space (for a pub, not so much as a live venue though) and i thought it was reasonably well-priced but i got a local's discount. The food was decently priced too.






			
				Orang Utan said:
			
		

> it had a good selection of booze too - i'm puzzled why it's closing to be honest. i really liked it.


And even Mr Raver Drew's comments:


> Despite not being particularly enamoured with the place in it's present incarnation, I'd much rather see it being used as a slightly pricey yet uber-cool nightspot than a homogeneous high street store


Well, you've got a homogeneous high street store now.

And this compares with the Angel and its £40 Supper Club, how exactly?


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## Mrs Magpie (May 15, 2012)

@ RaverDrew
Sometimes though you just want some food with a beer.


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## RaverDrew (May 15, 2012)

editor said:


> There was no mix of people because it was almost always totally empty because it was such a dreadful dire pub.


 
That's just simply not true at all, more often than not you'd struggle to even get a seat or table in there, day or night.


----------



## Kanda (May 15, 2012)

editor said:


> And this compares with the Angel and its £40 Supper Club, how exactly?


 
It's a one off night. Just like a club night?


----------



## editor (May 15, 2012)

RaverDrew said:


> That's just simply not true at all, more often than not you'd struggle to even get a seat or table in there, day or night.


That's probably because the seats were covered with sticky stale beer and quite possibly piss.

But this version of the pub being near-permanently packed is a sheer fantasy and you know it.

The only time it got busy was when there was something on at the Academy - but don't take my word for it - just read the online reviews or the threads here.


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## RaverDrew (May 15, 2012)

editor said:


> That's probably because the seats were covered with sticky stale beer and quite possibly piss.
> 
> But this version of the pub being near-permanently packed is a sheer fantasy and you know it.
> 
> The only time it got busy was when there was something on at the Academy - but don't take my word for it - just read the online reviews or the threads here.


 
It was a big cavernous space which often gave it the feel that it was emptier than it was, but there was a steady daily trade of regulars, and the only fantasy here is your assertion that it was always empty. Just a complete fabrication by someone that didn't even drink there regularly.

You clearly have a disdain for the kind of crowd it attracted, many of whom used to drink in The Angel previously.


----------



## Ms T (May 15, 2012)

editor said:


> FFS. How can you be this stupid?
> 
> They're all GIGS with well known performers/bands and DJs, not club nights. And £12 is not £15, even if your highly confused, twisty world.


 
I clicked on those links, and they're pretty much all club nights, in my world.  I think the folks at Brick Box should be given a chance, tbh.  And Saltoun Supper Club is a local business, employing local people (my neighbour's son, for one).  And the guy who runs it gets all his ingredients from the market/local businesses.


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## teuchter (May 15, 2012)

editor said:


> FFS. How can you be this stupid?
> 
> They're all GIGS with well known performers/bands and DJs, not club nights. And £12 is not £15, even if your highly confused, twisty world.


 
What exactly is your definition of a "club night"?



I'm really confused.

(Not that whether or not they are club nights is actually in any way relevant to the point I was originally making)


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## Dan U (May 15, 2012)

i think using beerintheeveing as a benchmark for pub reviews is a bit iffy. if you did that you'd never go to The Albert. Much better are the reviews of people on here i reckon.




> "A real horror, especially the morbid staff (miserable 'jam rolls' and psycotic neo fascist in Union Jack t-shirt). Some very interesting customers though. Beer: dire. Decor: tatty Music: Eastern European Plastic Punk. Best avoided"


 



> "The pub’s ardent defenders would insist that the Prince Albert is one of the few traditional Brixton pubs that has resisted the urge to transform into a trendy style bar and has a mixed clientele, actually. The irony is that the pub has become to all intents and purposes precisely that which it has sought not to. It’s style is ‘alternative’,’ radical rebelliousness’ and ‘cool’. It has become unconsciously trendy by trying sooo hard not to be trendy in the way same that Student Grant and his friends are pilloried in Viz. You can tell that you are in the heart of ‘vibrant multicultural Brixton’ when you are in the Prince Albert because there are so many white people sporting dreadlocks, actually.
> 
> The truth is that the clientele is not really all that mixed, they are made up of mostly young, professional, white and middle class nouveau arrivistes to the area who were attracted to Brixton because it was / is perceived as being a ‘vibrant area’ (see fawning Guardian-type articles ad nauseum et ad infinitum). These are the sort of people who passionately bemoan the gentrification of Brixton – a process in large part caused by them. Does that matter? No not really if you just fancy a couple of swift swallies."


 
^^ sounds like it was written by someone banned off here

http://www.beerintheevening.com/pubs/s/34/348/Prince_Albert/Brixton

i love that site. its reviews for my local are proper nuts


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## Crispy (May 15, 2012)

Dan U said:


> ^^ sounds like it was written by someone banned off here


I'll give you 20 quid if that wasn't anna key


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## Dan U (May 15, 2012)

Crispy said:


> I'll give you 20 quid if that wasn't anna key


 
i thought that. or Ern.


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## Gramsci (May 15, 2012)

teuchter said:


> You seem to think that putting stuff in capital letters makes it true.
> 
> There ARE lots of venues in Brixton that put on club nights and DO regularly charge such amounts.
> 
> ...


 
All very well teuchter. But as I said in previous post all these places are commercial enterprises. The issue is that Brick Box are charging £40 for an inaugural event at what they say is community space. That is going to exclude sections of the community. Ok u can get in for £5. But even that for some is a lot.

If Brick Box said they were going to run this place for arts events and entertainment and going to charge I would not have that much of a problem. Its all the dressing it up as community this and that I am queasy about.

Ive started to look at there aims on there website and it makes interesting reading. Will see if I can post up about that later.

I also still think there should be proper difference between commercial enterprises and those that say they are there to provide something special for the community.


----------



## editor (May 15, 2012)

teuchter said:


> What exactly is your definition of a "club night"?


I've no idea what you're on about any more. But my club nights are indeed free and I've no idea why you keep on posting up weird information about unrelated live events with big name acts. I'll think I'll just ignore you from now on.


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## Ms T (May 15, 2012)

Dan U said:


> i think using beerintheeveing as a benchmark for pub reviews is a bit iffy. if you did that you'd never go to The Albert. Much better are the reviews of people on here i reckon.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 It's not that far off the mark, tbh.  

I'm not keen on the Albert, personally.  I guess I'm one of those hoity-toity gentrifiers who likes food with her drink, which is preferably a decent glass of wine.  Or maybe I'm just old.


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## Mrs Magpie (May 15, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> ..........Its all the dressing it up as community this and that I am queasy about...........
> I also still think there should be proper difference between commercial enterprises and those that say they are there to provide something special for the community..........


This is my take too Gramsci. There have always been places of commercial entertainment in Brixton since the 19th century and that's fine. It's what provides income for half of my household.

The Angel isn't in the centre where the clubs and so-on are. It was the last local pub left in the Moorlands Triangle, which as I said earlier is very deprived. it is in no way a community space for the people who live around it.


----------



## editor (May 15, 2012)

RaverDrew said:


> You clearly have a disdain for the kind of crowd it attracted, many of whom used to drink in The Angel previously.


That's one almighty and thoroughly dishonest piece of misrepresentation there. You shoudl be ashamed of yourself.

I've only ever commented on the state of the pub, which _was_ a shithole.


----------



## editor (May 15, 2012)

Ms T said:


> I clicked on those links, and they're pretty much all club nights, in my world. I think the folks at Brick Box should be given a chance, tbh. And Saltoun Supper Club is a local business, employing local people (my neighbour's son, for one). And the guy who runs it gets all his ingredients from the market/local businesses.


No one is stopping them "having a chance." As far as I can see they're doing just fine anyway.

What I have questioned, however, is whether a £40 private event in what was a traditional black pub is the best way to introduce yourself to the neighbours, many of whom are unable to afford such sums to indulge themselves in the "Hysteria Treatment Room and lounge with fops and dandies in the Opium Den."

I've already suggested what I think would have been a better way to do it, but - hey! - what do I know! I only live here!


----------



## editor (May 15, 2012)

Ms T said:


> I clicked on those links, and they're pretty much all club nights, in my world.


But you've probably never heard of any of the acts playing have you?

If those acts weren't playing hardly anyone would bother going to the venues - that's why the acts names are right at the top and not the name of the club. Some are big names too: Sven Vath, General Levy, Todd Terry etc etc.

They're gigs and that's why teucher had to rummage around to find those prices for events set sometimes weeks into the future - all the ordinary club nights are priced nowhere near his inflated figures.


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## boohoo (May 15, 2012)

This is one event at the place which might give them some cash to do a freebie for the locals or offer some of the space cheaply. Spaces/organisations don't run on air!

As someone living locally, i do think good for them and hope for a variety of other activities there. I just see this gentrification as another day in the life of Brixton (saw this happen before in the 90s).


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 15, 2012)

boohoo said:


> This is one event at the place which might give them some cash to do a freebie for the locals or offer some of the space cheaply. Spaces/organisations don't run on air!
> 
> As someone living locally, i do think good for them and hope for a variety of other activities there. I just see this gentrification as another day in the life of Brixton (saw this happen before in the 90s).


 
True, but I don't think it was so fast and in your face as it currently is.


----------



## boohoo (May 15, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> True, but I don't think it was so fast and in your face as it currently is.


 yes, I think you are right about that!


----------



## Kanda (May 15, 2012)

Has it been that quick? when did Granvile Arcade get the Spacemakers treatment??


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## Minnie_the_Minx (May 15, 2012)

Kanda said:


> Has it been that quick? when did Granvile Arcade get the Spacemakers treatment??


 
Maybe not, it just feels like it 

I think part of that is the amount of publicity the area's getting as well makes it feel that way

Suppose that's one of the disadvantages of the internet etc.


----------



## editor (May 15, 2012)

It's definitely changing faster than at any time I can recall and most of it has happened in the past few years: there's more new restaurants and vintage shops than ever before, and with the eviction of Rushcroft Road/Clifton Mansions - and the Barratts homes going up opposite the Barrier Block -  you can see how the demographic is changing.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (May 15, 2012)

editor said:


> It's definitely changing faster than at any time I can recall and most of it has happened in the past few years: there's more new restaurants and vintage shops than ever before, and with the eviction of Rushcroft Road/Clifton Mansions - and the Barratts homes going up opposite the Barrier Block - you can see how the demographic is changing.


 
I agree, too many new properties going up for people who can afford them, but barely any council housing.  And far too much tweeness shopwise


----------



## Kanda (May 15, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> I agree, too many new properties going up for people who can afford them, but barely any council housing. And far too much tweeness shopwise


 
Council housing hasn't been built anywhere for years to be fair.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (May 15, 2012)

Kanda said:


> Council housing hasn't been built anywhere for years to be fair.


 
True, and I don't know who owns all the land where development is taking place, and I wonder how much land Lambeth has sold off for developments?  

I don't know anything about this type of stuff I'm afraid, although I do remember reading stuff about them having to sell properties off due to cutbacks etc. (I think!)


----------



## Mrs Magpie (May 15, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> True, but I don't think it was so fast and in your face as it currently is.


Plus the poor and the nearly poor are being squeezed as never before so the contrast is a real slap in the face. All sorts of local amenities are losing funding, people losing jobs, people with disabilities losing services, income. Everything, fares, fuel, food has risen in price. My rent has gone up by over a third in less than 10 years but our income has been staying still. A lot of places that people on lower incomes knew and loved have been priced out (thankfully Noor has survived though which is one crumb of comfort). Suddenly on my doorstep is some sort of decadent fin de siècle cabaret (costume pre 1910? I've got some old clothes from the 1990s but that's it) for £40 proclaiming itself as a community event. Mike Leigh would have a field day with that scenario.


----------



## Onket (May 15, 2012)

editor said:


> I've no idea what you're on about any more. But my club nights are indeed free and I've no idea why you keep on posting up weird information about unrelated live events with big name acts. I'll think I'll just ignore you from now on.


 
He's saying that your club nights could be called gigs, using your own argument.

It's quite clear.


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## Mrs Magpie (May 15, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> True, and I don't know who owns all the land where development is taking place, and I wonder how much land Lambeth has sold off


Loads. Even primary schools.


----------



## Winot (May 15, 2012)

editor said:


> It's definitely changing faster than at any time I can recall and most of it has happened in the past few years: there's more new restaurants and vintage shops than ever before, and with the eviction of Rushcroft Road/Clifton Mansions - and the Barratts homes going up opposite the Barrier Block - you can see how the demographic is changing.


 
In a way, Brixton was undervalued before in market terms.  You could see this as a correction to the prejudice that people have had against the area.  Of course, this means that people who previously had this prejudice come to live/socialise here, and it's unsurprising that their arrival isn't welcomed by those they previously snubbed.  And it's more serious if you're actually priced out by their arrival.

It's also tempting to rail against the symptoms when you feel powerless to change the cause.  Tempting, but not very constructive - I'd be more interested in a thread about positive ideas/action from those who don't like the changes to reinforce the culture (for want of a better word) that they want to see in Brixton.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 15, 2012)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Loads. Even primary schools.


 
So *where* will *any (if any) *new council housing ever be built?


----------



## teuchter (May 15, 2012)

editor said:


> I've no idea what you're on about any more. But my club nights are indeed free and I've no idea why you keep on posting up weird information about unrelated live events with big name acts. I'll think I'll just ignore you from now on.


 

You've no idea what I'm on about? Seriously?

You dismissed the notion that the events I listed were club nights on the basis that they were GIGS and NOT CLUB NIGHTS.

Even though, in my book and just about everyone else's, they are indeed club nights.

So I wondered what your definition of a club night is. And it turns out that you define your Offline night as a "club night", which also features a mixture of gigs and DJs.

From what I can make out your once-again shifted goalposts are now defining anything with "well-known names" as not a club night.

Which is absolute nonsense.


----------



## Onket (May 15, 2012)

teuchter said:


> From what I can make out your once-again shifted goalposts are now defining anything with "well-known names" as not a club night.
> 
> Which is absolute nonsense.


 
'Well-known names' even play his 'club night'.

Making it up as he goes along.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (May 15, 2012)

I have to say, if I was going to design an event that was meant to say "hello we are gentrifiers from Planet Shoreditch", a faux-Victorian-decadent launch party at £40 a head would be a really good starting point.


----------



## Kanda (May 15, 2012)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I have to say, if I was going to design an event that was meant to say "hello we are gentrifiers from Planet Shoreditch", a faux-Victorian-decadent launch party at £40 a head would be a really good starting point.


 
I'd say you're a bit late with the idea...


----------



## teuchter (May 15, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> All very well teuchter. But as I said in previous post all these places are commercial enterprises. The issue is that Brick Box are charging £40 for an inaugural event at what they say is community space. That is going to exclude sections of the community. Ok u can get in for £5. But even that for some is a lot.
> 
> If Brick Box said they were going to run this place for arts events and entertainment and going to charge I would not have that much of a problem. Its all the dressing it up as community this and that I am queasy about.
> 
> ...


 
I understand what you are saying. It's the editor's hysterical reaction to one single event there, (and ensuing insane logic in responding to my points) that I'm taking issue with.

If all they ever do is commercially driven nights then of course they are mis-selling themselves as a "community arts space". Maybe judge them on more than just this first night?


----------



## FridgeMagnet (May 15, 2012)

Kanda said:


> I'd say you're a bit late with the idea...


Well it's a bit late _now_ yes 

You wait until my shop selling only organic Holgas starts though.


----------



## teuchter (May 15, 2012)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I have to say, if I was going to design an event that was meant to say "hello we are gentrifiers from Planet Shoreditch", a faux-Victorian-decadent launch party at £40 a head would be a really good starting point.


 
What about go-go girls jumping out of a giant gateau and dancing the can-can?


----------



## editor (May 15, 2012)

teuchter said:


> What about go-go girls jumping out of a giant gateau and dancing the can-can?


Is there any point to your increasingly weird off topic ramblings?

And please: no more of your deceitful gig listings.


----------



## editor (May 15, 2012)

Onket said:


> 'Well-known names' even play his 'club night'.
> 
> Making it up as he goes along.


Yes they do. In a pub. Which is free to all in an event put on by locals. Have you got a point here because I'll be fucked if I know where this utterly bizarre argument is going.


----------



## salem (May 15, 2012)

They're putting on something a bit different, a live show for a fiver. It's not members only - anyone can go as far as I can see. There's no obligation to eat there. It's in a space which it seems would otherwise be unused.

The 'free' events mentioned are obviously paid for out of the bar takings. I can't imagine they'd last long if people didn't buy pricey drinks. I wonder how many people manage to get away with spending less then a fiver? That's not even two pints.

Give they guys a chance FFS.


----------



## Ms T (May 15, 2012)

editor said:


> Is there any point to your increasingly weird off topic ramblings?
> 
> And please: no more of your deceitful gig listings.


 
I don't think he's being deceitful.  It's a good point well made - you just don't happen to agree with it.

And the £40 is for a four-course meal with entertainment, which is not an unreasonable amount.  And they're taking over a space which is currently disused - it's not like they're pushing anyone else out.  There's room enough in Brixton for all these things, imho.


----------



## teuchter (May 15, 2012)

editor said:


> deceitful gig listings.


 
Brilliant.


----------



## editor (May 15, 2012)

Ms T said:


> I don't think he's being deceitful. It's a good point well made - you just don't happen to agree with it.


You don't actually understand the point.

He claimed that Brixton clubs were 'regularly charging' £15-£20 admission, and named the Electric Brixton and the Academy as examples. Except they're live venues putting on big name acts, not clubs.

None of the actual clubs he listed regularly charge £15-£20 admission. That is a simple fact, easily checked by looking at this week's Brixton Buzz listings. In fact, why don't you try and find some regular examples yourself if you think he has a 'good point''? http://www.brixtonbuzz.com/


----------



## Ms T (May 15, 2012)

They charge admission when putting on acts/performances, which is exactly what Brick Box is doing, to cover costs. And they're charging £35 for a four-course meal, which is a pretty average price these days for a restaurant meal. 

And last time I looked, DJs play clubs, no?


----------



## editor (May 15, 2012)

Ms T said:


> And they're charging £35 for a four-course meal, which is a pretty average price these days for a restaurant meal.


Perhaps to you it is, but I very much doubt many people around here think a £40 meal to be averagely priced. I certainly don't.

There is no £35 option, btw.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (May 15, 2012)

teuchter said:


> - Because it will attract "yuppies"? A large chunk of Brixton's nightlife scene is entirely dependant on relatively affluent young folk. There's absolutely nothing new there. There are already plenty of clubs that regularly charge £15/£20 plus to get in and then £4 for a bottle of beer at the bar.


 
The point is clear IMO, and basically true. If they maybe only charge a tenner 'regularly' and a bit more when they have a big name DJ, or whether it's a 'gig' or a 'clubnight' it's really not relevant. It's still true that a lot of Brixton venues already rely on a relatively wealthy young crowd. I can't see that's at all controversial tbh.


----------



## Vibrant-Hubb (May 15, 2012)

Hubert Vibrant-Hubb here. Well if it's anything like this it should be wonderful. A lovely "supper club" in a formely working-class West-Indian pub. How could anyone object? I expect I will adore it. I may rattle off a cheeky little review of my experience there, which I am sure will be, well, er, lovely. Just like the other lovely experience I had at "Right up My Back Stairs" in Acre Lane. Lovely things for lovely people, georgeousness everywhere. How could anyone object....

*Right Up My Back Stairs, Brixton*

My lovely lady and myself recently dined at the “Right Up My Back Stairs” eaterie in Brixton.
Gritty ghetto-chic? Tres bon. What an incongruous delight it is, sandwiched between such
proletarian banalities as a “laundromat” (whatever that is) and a Pakistani purveyor of news.
Who uses these quaint little mercantiles I've no conception. You certainly feel special, and we
are special aren't we, as you are ushered in through the discreet side door, unsignposted as it
is, cleverly deterring passing trade, local coloureds, ne'er-do-wells and the London poor.

“I'm surprised they bothered really”, I confided to my partner, “putting a restaurant for our
class of people here”, as we entered the bijou Victorian attic, a room artfully accessorised to
look like a salon of the French Renaissance (or something, we don't really know, but we love
feeling like we're in an exclusive clique where only people like us know to what we refer.
Apparently it used to be a cupboard).

I surmised the intended ambience is ultimately that of what some might call Fin de Siecle
Neoclassique, but... “does it pass the acid test of _our _refined sensibilities” my English Rose was
want to enquire. Well, we shall see.

Ensconced at a window table we were able to observe omnibuses and passing ethnics in the
street below, certainly a diverting pre-prandial human zoo, I mused, while quaffing my
somewhat recidivist champagne. Our waitress was an apotheosis of sneered disdain as she
took our order. Her indulgence of our guilt a titilating frisson. The menu? Extensive, if a little
derelict – a nod to the inner city locale mayhap?

We alighted on an eighteen course repast – a snip at £3095 (excluding fawning, which
customers are required by the owners to do themselves). Our starters were a liver and lager
consommé (a tad aggressive) and a pate of lemur heart (authentically Madasgascan but rather
perfunctory; Mrs Posh was quite upset). For main, I had guinea-pig tongue in a rhubarb
hollandaise sauce (exotic, erotic, sumptuous), and my partner in culinary and topographical
posturing optioned for the warm mousseline of mallard imprisoned in a marzipan sarcophagus
and drizzled in sputum, pavement-matured in the environs. (They don't tell everyone about
this for fear of overwhelming demand, it is organically harvested). She says it didn't deliver in
the flavour department. “How was it in the haberdashery department darling”, I quipped. I am
so funny and erudite.

To follow; a simple peasant sausage each (an homage to the native population), garnished
with a bounteous arabesque of crème fraîche and Pickled Onion Monster Munch. Impressive,
especially when one is distracted by attempting to appear familiar with the vacuous etiquette
of the aspirant classes, isn't one. The other sixteen dishes, suffice to say they were insouciant,
adequate, perchance to dream, even a little insolent. Cheeky chappies all – rather like the
adorable piccaninies begging for scraps outside. Mrs Posh says that something else she had
was also “very nice thanks” which adds much to this review I feel. What a cherubic little
poppet she is. I do love her so.

Our fellow diners were a teasing compote of hee-hawing nonentity, racism and wasted
education. “This is absolutely what Brixton needs” we chirruped (for we never disagree), now
stuffed like gluttonous dictators in our eerie perched high above Chav Street. Somehow it was
all so deliciously reminiscent of the sacking of the Jewish ghettos during the 1939 to 45 war, I
ruminate retrospectively as I pen this now, at this moment, myself, here.

“Right Up My Back Stairs” must be the best kept cliché, er, secret, in south London. A soupçon
of the Third Reich on our doorstep! We are such lucky, lucky people. “Chacun a son gout” I
conclude. Whatever the fuck that means.

_By Hubert Vibrant-Hubb_


----------



## editor (May 15, 2012)

Of course the real point isn't about these rather bizarre diversions into pay structures of actors or the difference between a venue and a club: it's about whether the Brick Box offering a private £40 themed foodie night in this particular part of Brixton in this particular pub is the best way to introduce themselves to the local community.

As a member of that local community, I think it's a terrible idea.


----------



## editor (May 15, 2012)

Vibrant-Hubb said:


> _By Hubert Vibrant-Hubb_


Rumoured to have been penned by esteemed local resident Chris Morris.

Is that you?


----------



## quimcunx (May 15, 2012)

editor said:


> You don't actually understand the point.
> 
> He claimed that Brixton clubs were 'regularly charging' £15-£20 admission, and named the Electric Brixton and the Academy as examples. Except they're live venues putting on big name acts, not clubs.
> 
> None of the actual clubs he listed regularly charge £15-£20 admission. That is a simple fact, easily checked by looking at this week's Brixton Buzz listings. In fact, why don't you try and find some regular examples yourself if you think he has a 'good point''? http://www.brixtonbuzz.com/


 
The £15-20 admission was what you came up with when moving some goalposts.  It's not unusual to spend £40 and more on going to a club night or gig night.   It's not unusual to spend £40 on a meal and drinks for those who can afford either.  It's not unusual to spend £40 going to the pub on sunday and buying drinks and sunday lunch. You'd prefer to spend your money on gigs/clubbing and booze.  Personally I'd rather spend mine on a meal.  Whatever your or my preference the supper club launch is just as valid a thing to spend money on as clubbing or gigging.  

What is a more salient point is that it's looking like there isn't enough room for both social provision for the relatively well off and social provision for those less well off.


----------



## Ms T (May 15, 2012)

editor said:


> Perhaps to you it is, but I very much doubt many people around here think a £40 meal to be averagely priced. I certainly don't.
> 
> There is no £35 option, btw.


 
£35 for the meal, £5 for the entertainment.

I eat out a lot more than you do.  You are not a food person, tbh.  As quimmy says, you'd rather spend your money on other things, which is fair enough.  I like spending my money on food because that is my passion and £40 is certainly not an outrageous price for four courses and a cocktail in London.


----------



## editor (May 15, 2012)

quimcunx said:


> It's not unusual to spend £40 and more on going to a club night or gig night.


If *you're* rich enough to have that kind of cash to blow every time you go out, sure. But not everyone is.

Take a look around at my estate. How many people who live there do you think are able to spend such sums of money several times a week? No-one on my resident's group, for starters.
Oh, and teucher came up with that stupid, irrelevant £15-£20 diversion. Right here:


teuchter said:


> There are already plenty of clubs that regularly charge £15/£20 plus to get in and then £4 for a bottle of beer at the bar.


----------



## Ms T (May 15, 2012)

editor said:


> Of course the real point isn't about these rather bizarre diversions into pay structures of actors or the difference between a venue and a club: it's about whether the Brick Box offering a private £40 themed foodie night in this particular part of Brixton in this particular pub is the best way to introduce themselves to the local community.
> 
> As a member of that local community, I think it's a terrible idea.


 
Well you could argue that they have already introduced themselves to the local community, as they run a very popular cafe in Brixton Village and have run several free events already, including some kids' art events.  Equally, Saltoun Supper Club is a well-established Brixton business.


----------



## ajdown (May 15, 2012)

I wouldn't class us as 'particularly poor' but spending £40 between us on a meal once a month is more than enough for us to spend on "going out".


----------



## editor (May 15, 2012)

Ms T said:


> £35 for the meal, £5 for the entertainment.


The cheapest you can get that meal is £40. 





Ms T said:


> I like spending my money on food because that is my passion and £40 is certainly not an outrageous price for four courses and a cocktail in London.


Can you really not comprehend that for a lot of people living where we live, £40 per head - or even £35 per head -  will _never_ be an 'average' kind of price for a meal?

If people want to spend that kind of money on meals, that's up to them. No problem there.

But do I think it's a great idea for a self-styled "‘ground up’ arts organisation and community movement" to introduce themselves to this particular area with such an expensive and exclusive venture? No, I don't.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (May 15, 2012)

editor said:


> If *you're* rich enough to have that kind of cash to blow every time you go out, sure. But not everyone is.


 
Who said anything about doing every time you go out, or several times a week? If someone spends forty quid on a night out once or twice a month that isn't unusual is it? That sort of leap, and attempt to get people to defend things they never said, is exactly where the diversions you're complaining about start from.


----------



## magneze (May 15, 2012)

If it's wildly inappropriate for the area then it'll fail and won't be done again. Can't see the issue with at least trying it out tbh.


----------



## editor (May 15, 2012)

Ms T said:


> Well you could argue that they have already introduced themselves to the local community, as they run a very popular cafe in Brixton Village and have run several free events already, including some kids' art events.


They've introduced themselves to _Brixton Village_.


----------



## editor (May 15, 2012)

Still, it's good to know what has inspired this "sensual and sumptuous feast of the most unprecedented kind offering up rare delicacies, exquisite aromas, and bizarre discoveries."



> Our inspiration
> We look for inspiration from the streets of the world; the places that are visceral and rough and ready; where the street drinkers hang out; where the bins are kept.
> http://www.thebrickbox.co.uk/events.html


----------



## George & Bill (May 15, 2012)

editor said:


> You don't actually understand the point



Why did you get drawn on this? For the limited amount it's worth, I can see what he's getting at on that specific, pedantic point - but that's irrelevant, as the substance of the point you were making should have been incontestible enough to anyone who's not hopelessly naive and lacking in any sort of historical or social perspective. 

The point I'd make would be this: the fact that fairly ordinary people don't see £40 as a bad amount to pay for a four course meal (and I agree it's not) does little to ameliorate the crassness of inaugurating a supposed community centre in a poor area with an event that is not only out of the price range of those who most lack community facilities, but also patently not aimed at them.


----------



## editor (May 15, 2012)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> Who said anything about doing every time you go out, or several times a week? If someone spends forty quid on a night out once or twice a month that isn't unusual is it?


The word "average" has been bandied about.


----------



## editor (May 15, 2012)

slowjoe said:


> Why did you get drawn on this?


Good question, I should know better really. Sorry. 


slowjoe said:


> The point I'd make would be this: the fact that fairly ordinary people don't see £40 as a bad amount to pay for a four course meal (and I agree it's not) does little to ameliorate the crassness of inaugurating a supposed community centre in a poor area with an event that is not only out of the price range of those who most lack community facilities, but also patently not aimed at them.


Exactly. And that's why I've repeatedly described the event as inappropriate because it _is._


----------



## FridgeMagnet (May 15, 2012)

It's not really about the money anyway (though £40 is a fair whack for dinner). There's a specific (sub)cultural relevance to the whole theme - it's aimed to appeal to a certain group of people, who are very much in the "gentrifier" bracket. It's not just a random subject for a night any more than cupcakes are random food items.


----------



## Vibrant-Hubb (May 15, 2012)

Let them eat cup-cakes.


----------



## killer b (May 15, 2012)

aren't cupcakes over yet?


----------



## editor (May 15, 2012)

killer b said:


> aren't cupcakes over yet?


Not yet sadly.


----------



## killer b (May 15, 2012)

preston got it's first cupcake shop last week, so i'd assumed everywhere else had moved on...


----------



## George & Bill (May 15, 2012)

FridgeMagnet said:


> It's not really about the money anyway (though £40 is a fair whack for dinner). There's a specific (sub)cultural relevance to the whole theme - it's aimed to appeal to a certain group of people, who are very much in the "gentrifier" bracket. It's not just a random subject for a night any more than cupcakes are random food items.



This point will be missed both by those so far away from that particular sub-group of gentrifiers as to be unaware of what it looks like, and by those so deeply ensconced in it as to be unaware that it's not actually the entire culture. Without knowing the posters here irl, I suspect they may include representatives of both these groups.


----------



## editor (May 15, 2012)

killer b said:


> preston got it's first cupcake shop last week, so i'd assumed everywhere else had moved on...


You ain't got _nothing_ until you've got a "Guerrilla Restaurant" running a £40 night in a closed traditional black pub opposite a social housing estate hosted by people who like to be "where the street drinkers hang out."


----------



## killer b (May 15, 2012)

onwards and upwards for brixton. the cupcake shops won't know what's hit 'em.


----------



## killer b (May 15, 2012)

although fwiw it's hardly a new idea - i vaguely remember making plans to go to a similarly themed night (sans 40 quid meal) at the telegraph about 10 years ago.

does seem an odd choice for the launch party of a community centre though.


----------



## boohoo (May 15, 2012)

If we don't have quirky shops and eateries what do we get instead? More starbucks, more high street chains, more pound shops - I suppose it would put off the young people (they do seem to be upsetting the older people )


----------



## Vibrant-Hubb (May 15, 2012)

Chronic alcoholism - a tortured self-medication of extreme emotional pain.  Graduation from hanging with street drinkers; crack rape. Cup Cake & Crack Rape - beats French & Grace.


----------



## George & Bill (May 15, 2012)

boohoo said:


> If we don't have quirky shops and eateries what do we get instead? More starbucks, more high street chains, more pound shops - I suppose it would put off the young people (they do seem to be upsetting the older people )



There *are* businesses in existence that manage to be neither overtly elitist nor branches of international chains, FYI.


----------



## teuchter (May 15, 2012)

editor said:


> None of the actual clubs he listed regularly charge £15-£20 admission. That is a simple fact, easily checked by looking at this week's Brixton Buzz listings. In fact, why don't you try and find some regular examples yourself if you think he has a 'good point''? http://www.brixtonbuzz.com/


 

http://www.brixtonbuzz.com/ai1ec_ev...tric-brixton-trance-techno/?instance_id=56968

£20 for a Trance and Techno night. This Friday.

Now you're going to try and claim that a trance and techno night is a "gig", not a club night. It's a gig, but there are two rooms with DJs, playing dance music, and it goes on till 6am. That's a gig, yes, nothing at all like a club night.

You will also try and claim it's not "regular" because, even though it's on this Friday, and the same venue held club nights on the 5th April, 6th April, 7th April, 28th April (I was at that one and can confirm that it was a club night, based on my experience of going to club nights and knowing what a club night is), 5th May and 12th May, all £20 except one at £15, well, that's not "regular" because if it was it would mean you'd have to admit that you are talking rubbish and throwing around accusations without checking your facts.


This is all of course a distraction from the main point, but I am pursuing it because I made a statement that I'm fully able to back up, and you responded by calling me deceitful and stupid amongst various other things. And I'm not going to let it go because I'm not going to let you get away with it, especially as you keep implying that I am constantly waging some kind of personal attack on you. 

Your standard line of argument: "you're talking rubbish/clueless because I say you are rubbish/clueless" is really irritating and this is the only way to combat it.

Apologies to other posters that this has diverted the thread from what it should be about.


----------



## George & Bill (May 15, 2012)

teuchter said:


> http://www.brixtonbuzz.com/ai1ec_ev...tric-brixton-trance-techno/?instance_id=56968
> 
> £20 for a Trance and Techno night. This Friday.
> 
> ...



You seem to be failing to learn that being right on a specific point doesn't stop you from being tedious and irrelevant.


----------



## quimcunx (May 15, 2012)

What I actually said: 


quimcunx said:


> It's not unusual to spend £40 and more on going to a club night or gig night.  It's not unusual to spend £40 on a meal and drinks *for those who can afford either.*


 
What you quoted me as saying: 


quimcunx said:


> It's not unusual to spend £40 and more on going to a club night or gig night.


 
What you responded. 


editor said:


> *If you're rich enough to have that kind of cash* to blow every time you go out, sure. But not everyone is.


 
And who said anything about _every time_ anyone goes out?


----------



## RaverDrew (May 15, 2012)

As a regular street drinker I'm actually quite proud that I'm somehow inspiring and giving something back to the community


----------



## Vibrant-Hubb (May 15, 2012)

After the cabaret, the poor will be driven into the sea.


----------



## editor (May 15, 2012)

RaverDrew said:


> As a regular street drinker I'm actually quite proud that I'm somehow inspiring and giving something back to the community


I'm sure the Brick Box Supper Club night will welcome you in with open arms.


----------



## teuchter (May 15, 2012)

slowjoe said:


> You seem to be failing to learn that being right on a specific point doesn't stop you from being tedious and irrelevant.


 
I agree 100% that that being right on a specific point doesn't stop me from being tedious and irrelevant.


----------



## teuchter (May 15, 2012)

quimcunx said:


> What I actually said:
> 
> 
> What you quoted me as saying:
> ...


You're being tedious and irrelevant. The facts don't really matter.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (May 15, 2012)

RaverDrew said:


> As a regular street drinker I'm actually quite proud that I'm somehow inspiring and giving something back to the community


----------



## editor (May 15, 2012)

slowjoe said:


> You seem to be failing to learn that being right on a specific point doesn't stop you from being tedious and irrelevant.


He's found _one_ single club. The rest in his list were all gigs with well known headline acts, some of which weren't even charging the amount he claimed. But as you say, it's all veh dull. Onwards!


----------



## DietCokeGirl (May 15, 2012)

Strictly pre-1901 dress code? Yeah it's fair to say that rules out most of the average population.


----------



## killer b (May 15, 2012)

Vibrant-Hubb said:


> After the cabaret, the poor will be driven into the sea.


ah, is this all to fund a day out in brighton for the poor of brixton?


----------



## George & Bill (May 15, 2012)

teuchter said:


> I agree 100% that that being right on a specific point doesn't stop me from being tedious and irrelevant.



That's good, but tediousness and irrelevance are already being practiced with considerably greater originality elsewhere.


----------



## editor (May 15, 2012)

DietCokeGirl said:


> Strictly pre-1901 dress code? Yeah it's fair to say that rules out most of the average population.


Don't be silly! Surely even the riff raff can afford costume hire for the £40 bash, else they can pop down to the nearest pop-up vintage store in the Villaaage and bag themselves something rather dandy for the night.


----------



## netbob (May 15, 2012)

Brick Box are supposed to be a community interest company, but I'm buggered if I can find them on opencorporates.com

Also, part of the deal of CIC's is that they cannot be "be set up to serve an unduly restrictive group"

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community_interest_company#Legal_forms_and_social_objectives)


----------



## teuchter (May 15, 2012)

editor said:


> He's found _one_ single club. The rest in his list were all gigs with well known headline acts, some of which weren't even charging the amount he claimed. But as you say, it's all veh dull. Onwards!


 
Ha, you're _still_ trying to dismiss the whole thing and brush it aside by restating your lies. However much evidence I present, it'll never be enough. It's exactly like trying to talk to a homeopath.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (May 15, 2012)

memespring said:


> Brick Box are supposed to be a community interest company, but I'm buggered if I can find them on opencorporates.com
> 
> Also, part of the deal of CIC's is that they cannot be "be set up to serve an unduly restrictive group"
> 
> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community_interest_company#Legal_forms_and_social_objectives)


 
Would 'total lack of interest in what you wacky cunts are up to' constitute a restriction in that sense though? I imagine it's technically open to anyone.


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## Vibrant-Hubb (May 15, 2012)

An evening for middle class thieves with zero self-awareness of their sense of entitlement and zero cultural sensitivity will be well attended no doubt.

The tickets to the sea are one way. It'll be a nice day out.  Brixton - you can leave... and you can leave... and just go will you... you are in the way now.


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## boohoo (May 15, 2012)

slowjoe said:


> There *are* businesses in existence that manage to be neither overtly elitist nor branches of international chains, FYI.


 
Which ones are they?


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## Winot (May 15, 2012)

ajdown said:


> I wouldn't class us as 'particularly poor' but spending £40 between us on a meal once a month is more than enough for us to spend on "going out".



You are Mr. Charles Pooter and I claim my £5.


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## Ms T (May 15, 2012)

I don't think this is claiming to be a community centre tbh. 

I agree that this event will be irrelevant to a lot of the old Brixton community, but then so is much of Brixton nightlife, and that includes free nights such as Offline.


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## George & Bill (May 15, 2012)

Ms T said:


> I don't think this is claiming to be a community centre tbh.
> 
> I agree that this event will be irrelevant to a lot of the old Brixton community, but then so is much of Brixton nightlife, and that includes free nights such as Offline.



'a key community space for the future'  - http://www.thebrickbox.co.uk/354-coldharbour-lane.html


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## George & Bill (May 15, 2012)

So, maybe it means for the community that will be there in future.


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## Gramsci (May 15, 2012)

Dan U said:


> i think using beerintheeveing as a benchmark for pub reviews is a bit iffy. if you did that you'd never go to The Albert. Much better are the reviews of people on here i reckon.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
I have been going to the Albert since early 1980s so think I can voice an opinion on it. This review is utter bollocks.

Things change in Brixton. When I first started using it it was almost empty. Three men and a dog kind of place. Became really popular later on. It was always sneered at for being "middle class" back in those days by denizens of The Railway. 

This review is yet another attack on it in similar vein. Think I can guess who wrote it.

Always was a pub still is a pub and has managed to survive as genuine local.


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## George & Bill (May 16, 2012)

slowjoe said:


> 'a key community space for the future'  - http://www.thebrickbox.co.uk/354-coldharbour-lane.html



So, what personally erks me is that such venues are established and frequented by people who think they're terribly in-touch and progressive, but the effect is actually social division.


----------



## editor (May 16, 2012)

Ms T said:


> I agree that this event will be irrelevant to a lot of the old Brixton community, but then so is much of Brixton nightlife, and that includes free nights such as Offline.


Except the Offline nights are very well attended by old Brixton regulars, they're run by some long term Brixton residents, the acts are often Brixton-based, and they're free and open to all.

So 'scuse me if I'm not seeing the apparently obvious parallels with a £40 private supper club night for the vintage dressing up crowd.


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## editor (May 16, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> Always was a pub still is a pub and has managed to survive as genuine local.


Last one left on Coldharbour Lane I'd say, after the demise of the Angel.


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## editor (May 16, 2012)

Ms T said:


> I don't think this is claiming to be a community centre tbh.


Brick Box describes themselves as a "community movement" who are a "Community Interest Company" intending to create 'a key community space for the future' at the venue.


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## Gramsci (May 16, 2012)

I had a look at the Brick Box website "About Us" to see what they are on about. As another poster has said they are a "Community Interest Company".

http://www.thebrickbox.co.uk/about-us.html

They are setting themselves a tall order here. Apart from saying its non hierarchical I do not see how in practical terms it is supposed to work. I like art/film ,and I think it has important place in society, but the claims made for the transformative use of art by BB are incorrect. Art can represent social problems but not transform them. Transforming them is politics.

"Weaving art into daily happenings". Breaking down the barriers between the artwork and audience ( whatever art form it is-theatre , cinema) was something that was meant to make art more relevant and get the audience out of there passivity as spectators. To make art that gets people to want to change society rather than be passive spectators of art. Came in during the 60s.

They also say that places that are rough and ready "where the street drinkers hang out" are more there inspiration.

The first thought that comes into my head is that in a way this thread is , under there definition of art, part of the artwork that will take place this Saturday. If I was them I would have it printed out and placed in one of there rooms. And I am not being sarcastic here. I mean this. Could be positive thing.

The second is that there use of the Angel becomes part of the street life itself in ways that I do not think they are analysing themselves. Despite there view that art and real life should intermingle there is still in there piece below an assumption that there art is somehow superior to everyday interactions. Its the artist who can "birth" ideas from everyday life. So it is still a top down view of the artist. Its not seeing everyday life as something to marvel at in itself.

Thirdly I would suggest they go out and look at and record the areas of Brixton that are in "forgotten corners". For example some the people which Mrs Magpie has posted up about on her estate . Those people I meet who are borderline street drinkers or the Romanian Big Issue seller I know. Could make up an interesting exhibition. It is something that artists have done. There is crossover between art and documenting events.



*Our inspiration*​ 
*We look for inspiration from the streets of the world; the places that are visceral and rough and ready; where the street drinkers hang out; where the bins are kept. We are looking for opportunities to express, explore and experiment away from the restrictions and expectations of traditional arts settings and we embrace the sounds, smells and challenges of being in (extra) ordinary everyday environments.*​ 


*Who we are*​ 
*We are a ‘ground up’ arts organisation and community movement made up of artists, dreamers, hopers and no hopers.*​*Our core beliefs*​ 
*We believe there is magic to be found and created in everyday life, even in the dourest of situations, and that the arts can provide transformative tools and essential inspiration in order to improve social, emotional, economic and cultural health for all*​ 

*Our aims*​ 
*We aim to break the arts out of traditional institutions and create artistic experiences in unusual, non-traditional, under-used and / or abandoned spaces. It is the forgotten corners, the ‘uncool’ areas, and the dark empty, ‘difficult’ places that we seek. It is here that we weave the arts in to daily happenings; it is here that different people meet, and it is here that ideas are forged and birthed from the fruitful tension between creativity and every day life. *​


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## editor (May 16, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> Those people I meet who are borderline street drinkers or the Romanian Big Issue seller I know.


The one outside Sainsbury's? She's a lovely person.


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## Gramsci (May 16, 2012)

editor said:


> The one outside Sainsbury's? She's a lovely person.


 
Yes her the Roma. A real character. Often chat to her.


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## Gramsci (May 16, 2012)

memespring said:


> Brick Box are supposed to be a community interest company, but I'm buggered if I can find them on opencorporates.com
> 
> Also, part of the deal of CIC's is that they cannot be "be set up to serve an unduly restrictive group"
> 
> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community_interest_company#Legal_forms_and_social_objectives)


 
Read that and looked at link to CIC association. Still at a loss to fully understand what a CIC is. From this piece it sounds like its loosely defined. If you can persuade the regulator its a social good then you can get CIC status from what I see and there are some limitations on handing out dividends. Apart from that it can operate like any other business. I think the market traders have set one up. As the Council was going to outsource market mge.

From http://www.cicassociation.org.uk/archives/198

CICs can be not-for- profit, for-profit, co-operative, mutual, employee led, limited by guarantee, limited by share, a PLC. Some can issue golden and preference shares, be volunteer led and pay market salaries. Uniquely it allows individuals to frame their efforts for community change, irrespective of whether that community is local, regional, national or international. Many are far from the finished article but every one of them is a change-maker that UK PLC needs more than ever. CIC is being used by people from all spheres of society, from professionals looking to maintain a social provision,to community groups taking over local assets….. I’ll stop there but you get the point.​ 
I do not get the point. Im a bit confused here. Sounds to me that CIC is like getting Fair Trade mark. Its a business but not quite as rapaciously Capitalist as some. Will Hutton was on radio arguing for socially responsible Capitalism a few days ago. Decent old liberal that he is. As opposed to the last 30 years of fuck you Capitalism. (Supported by the last governments both Labour and Tory). I suppose the CIC concept the last government brought in shows how fuck you Capitalism was the mainstream. The Quakers did CIC type business back in 19c but didnt call it that. ​


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## purves grundy (May 16, 2012)

Hate to wade into what is clearly a local thread, but - and following from what Gramsci has written above - it pays to stay very wary of social enterprises /CICs etc. Some can be excellent, well-run and do some good stuff - but they remain enterprises, they still commodify whatever it is they're into, still have to force things which wouldn't previously have been on balance sheets into quantifiable form. Social enterprise - "Doing well by doing good" as someone vomit-inducingly described it to me the other day - is beginning to become better known even in Burma and I find it's effect to be thoroughly depoliticising.

As you were.


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## Mrs Magpie (May 16, 2012)

Ms T said:


> I don't think this is claiming to be a community centre tbh.


They are though. Which is why I'm so angry. They go on about stuff  like being inspired by street drinkers and it's all a pile of pretentious wank dressed up as grassroots arts for all and it isn't.


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## editor (May 16, 2012)

They'll find no shortage of street drinkers to be 'inspired by' along that stretch although I'd imagine that many of them would rather be back in their old pub than standing out in the cold.


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## CH1 (May 16, 2012)

purves grundy said:


> it pays to stay very wary of social enterprises /CICs etc


*Completely agree* - my former employer used to be bona fide service providing charity, but when it got into financial difficulties around 2000 the social enterprise types picked at it like vultures, then took it over. It is now a property company "social enterprise serving the disabled community". Because it now gets no council grants the clique who run it no longer have to obey equal ops rules such as Lambeth Social services used to have in their _"Conditions of Grant Aid"_. Employees are recruited without advertising, free "volunteers" (unpaid menial workers) are provided by Mencap Pathway, A&E etc who want their "clients" to get "work experience".  Meanwhile the board have taken the power to pay themselves consultancies of £x thousand to draw up reports for developing the business. (As a charity formerly the board were the unpaid volunteers).
A corrupt and exploitative situation - not a nice place to work any more. Glad I left in retrospect.


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## Mrs Magpie (May 16, 2012)

CH1 said:


> A&E etc who want their "clients" to get "work experience".


Accident and Emergency?


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## editor (May 16, 2012)

I wonder if Brick Box will be inviting the source of their inspiration into their supper club night?


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## Minnie_the_Minx (May 16, 2012)

A4E?


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## George & Bill (May 16, 2012)

A4E, presumably


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## Minnie_the_Minx (May 16, 2012)

editor said:


> I wonder if Brick Box will be inviting the source of their inspiration into their supper club night?


 
Maybe they'll campaign to give them more drinking space outside The Ritzy


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## CH1 (May 16, 2012)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Accident and Emergency?


Sorry I meant A4E - the employment trainers with have a branch in Bon Marché. Provide "The Work Programme" round here. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17161210


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## Monkeygrinder's Organ (May 16, 2012)

CH1 said:


> *Completely agree* - my former employer used to be bona fide service providing charity, but when it got into financial difficulties around 2000 the social enterprise types picked at it like vultures, then took it over. It is now a property company "social enterprise serving the disabled community". Because it now gets no council grants the clique who run it no longer have to obey equal ops rules such as Lambeth Social services used to have in their _"Conditions of Grant Aid"_. Employees are recruited without advertising, free "volunteers" (unpaid menial workers) are provided by Mencap Pathway, A&E etc who want their "clients" to get "work experience". Meanwhile the board have taken the power to pay themselves consultancies of £x thousand to draw up reports for developing the business. (As a charity formerly the board were the unpaid volunteers).
> A corrupt and exploitative situation - not a nice place to work any more. Glad I left in retrospect.


 
TBH charities aren't immune to that sort of stuff these days, especially as they're increasingly acting as contracted service providers.


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## Mrs Magpie (May 16, 2012)

CH1 said:


> Sorry I meant A4E - the employment trainers with have a branch in Bon Marché. Provide "The Work Programme" round here. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17161210


Ah right, I've heard of them. Aren't they the ones tainted by fraud?


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## Dan U (May 16, 2012)

i wonder if they will be 'inspired by street drinkers' to often have complex physical and mental health needs and a shortened life expectancy

i hadn't read that claptrap till now.


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## CH1 (May 16, 2012)

CH1 said:


> Sorry I meant A4E - the employment trainers with have a branch in Bon Marché. Provide "The Work Programme" round here. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17161210


A4E itself seems to think it is a social firm - despite paying out millions in "dividends" to its founders.
Anyone got any dirt on TBG? Brixton JobCentre keep sending me on courses to TBG in Kennington. It looks pretty kosher down there though - I think their courses are paid for by the European Social Fund. That means they would get paid for a start, for some "milestones" and for the qualification. They don't have to invent fake "jobs" to get their money.  They might mark the C&G (City and Guilds) exams very leniently though, I suppose.


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## CH1 (May 16, 2012)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Ah right, I've heard of them. Aren't they the ones tainted by fraud?


read the BBC link


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## Mrs Magpie (May 16, 2012)

I was just doing a Columbo for mild comic effect


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## Thimble Queen (May 16, 2012)

Despite the guff on the website, I really like the food in brick box. I do think they are well meaning, even if this £40 supper club community centre thing might be a bit   I'm interested to find out what they'll be doing with the Angel after the opening night though...


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## editor (May 16, 2012)

I think the Brick Box have done a very good job in the Villaaage.

I'm just hoping that this venture down the road isn't going to turn them in to the Cecil Rhodes of Brixton.


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## Mrs Magpie (May 16, 2012)

MrsDarlingsKiss said:


> I do think they are well meaning


The road to Hell is paved with good intentions.


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## DietCokeGirl (May 16, 2012)

Dan U said:


> i wonder if they will be 'inspired by street drinkers' to often have complex physical and mental health needs and a shortened life expectancy.


 
Indeed. I didn't really wanna get started on that, but he whole idea of the gritty-real-life-glamour-of-the-streetz is surely dispelled by now? That line reads less 'compassion and inclusion' and more 'wacky and clueless, and never dealt with TB sputum' If you're really inspired by the the great unwashed socially isolated, volunteer at a soup run. End rant.


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## Dan U (May 16, 2012)

i might go on Dragons Den with a business idea of apeing poverty.

authentic weekends of bin diving, polydrug abuse topped off with white lightening foie gras served in a disused homeless shelter

given the austerity times we live in, it should be a sure fire winner. i can smell Peter Jones's cash already.


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## editor (May 16, 2012)




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## CH1 (May 16, 2012)

editor said:


>



Thank God my main cultural excess is going to the Proms.


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## Onket (May 16, 2012)

editor said:


> Yes they do. In a pub. Which is free to all in an event put on by locals. Have you got a point here because I'll be fucked if I know where this utterly bizarre argument is going.


 
I made my point earlier. I can only assume you had your blinkers on again.

Yawn.


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## Rushy (May 16, 2012)

£5 for an elaborately themed "one off" event sounds like a bargain. Much cheaper than the other regularly staged themed event in Brixton, Torture Garden. A series of themed events held five times a year in Brixton (used to be at Mass, next one 2 June at Dex). No big names. The attraction is the theme. £23 (up to £50 for NYE IIRC). Been going on here for years. No food or drinks included - not even a packet of hankies. So £5 for a one off themed event sounds like a bargain. No one is getting rich off that. Perhaps those who really want to go but genuinely can't afford a fiver could go the Brick Box and ask if they can help out with something in return for free entry.

Arguing that the cost of the optional dinner makes it exclusive is like arguing that you can't afford to go to the Natural History Museum because the sandwiches and muffins are overpriced. 

Brick Box clearly set out four objectives for the site and this one off event does not appear to be in conflict with those aims. Like the museums, they will hopefully make some profit from the catering and be able to plough that back into their projects, even if that just means paying people who make this stuff happen.


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## Gramsci (May 16, 2012)

CH1 said:


> Sorry I meant A4E - the employment trainers with have a branch in Bon Marché. Provide "The Work Programme" round here. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17161210


 
Emma Harrison the owner of A4E calls herself a "social entrepreuner". Like making a lot of money out of the unemployed is just something she does out of the goodness of her heart.


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## Gramsci (May 16, 2012)

Rushy said:


> Brick Box clearly set out four objectives for the site and this one off event does not appear to be in conflict with those aims. Like the museums, they will hopefully make some profit from the catering and be able to plough that back into their projects, even if that just means paying people who make this stuff happen.


 
In which case it would be good if they said this was a fundraising event for all the good works they are going to do. The way I read it they think this event is part of being in touch with "forgotten corners". (See my previous post on there artistic ideas.)


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## Rushy (May 16, 2012)

> Kanda said: ↑
> Introduce himself to the area? He's been doing Supper Club for years just down the road... Saltoun Rd.​


​​


editor said:


> Oh come on, get real. Saltoun Road is *nothing* like this stretch of Coldharbour Lane neither does it share the same history or demographics.


 
This kind of street by street micro-localism can't be good for Brixton. It is no less intolerant than arguing that SLAM's drug rehab centre should not have been built next to Trinity Gardens because it is not needed by its immediate neighbours.


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## spanglechick (May 16, 2012)

i think the justified frustration with the nature of the event (the fiver is a red herring, IMO - like i say, that's cheap for a school play, ime), is that in the earlier publicity the use of the word 'community' was understandably taken to mean inclusive of the whole local population - especially given the part of brixton and the history of the site. So, somewhere accessible and not elitist... whereas what they've chosen to put on for their opening night is, well, for want of a less overused word... hipster.  

so yes, young, childfree professionals are part of the community of brixton, and that's the part of the community brick box would appear to be interested in.  but really there's no shortage of arts spaces doing this sort of thing in london. this section of the community is already catered for.  they have every right to do it, but it seems unfair, when other parts of the community have so little.  

It strikes me that a much better version of this would have been something like Theatre Peckham, which for 25+ years has been offering cheap (subsidised) theatre arts classes (dance, singing, acting) to kids from toddler to 18 from a building on an estate in peckham. they put on the kids' shows and pro shows (which they do charge for), get the local schools in and go out to them...  provide some employment for locals...  brilliant.  And that's what this could have been.  not necessarily for kids - but something like that.


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## spanglechick (May 16, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> In which case it would be good if they said this was a fundraising event for all the good works they are going to do. The way I read it they think this event is part of being in touch with "forgotten corners". (See my previous post on there artistic ideas.)


i can't imagine this will make much profit.


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## Rushy (May 16, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> In which case it would be good if they said this was a fundraising event for all the good works they are going to do. The way I read it they think this event is part of being in touch with "forgotten corners". (See my previous post on there artistic ideas.)


I think it is up to them whether they clarify that. Personally, I don't think most people are all that interested to know about the financial set up. But if it is important to you you should definitely ask them. They specifically invite thoughts and ideas on the same page.


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## boohoo (May 16, 2012)

The problem is which part of the community should a project serve? the old, the young, infants, toddlers, teenagers, disabled, Black, Asian, Chinese, working class, middle class, etc, etc, etc....

You can't please everyone.


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## Rushy (May 16, 2012)

spanglechick said:


> i think the justified frustration with the nature of the event (the fiver is a red herring, IMO - like i say, that's cheap for a school play, ime), is that in the earlier publicity the use of the word 'community' was understandably taken to mean inclusive of the whole local population - especially given the part of brixton and the history of the site. So, somewhere accessible and not elitist... whereas what they've chosen to put on for their opening night is, well, for want of a less overused word... hipster.
> 
> so yes, young, childfree professionals are part of the community of brixton, and that's the part of the community brick box would appear to be interested in. but really there's no shortage of arts spaces doing this sort of thing in london. this section of the community is already catered for. they have every right to do it, but it seems unfair, when other parts of the community have so little.
> 
> It strikes me that a much better version of this would have been something like Theatre Peckham, which for 25+ years has been offering cheap (subsidised) theatre arts classes (dance, singing, acting) to kids from toddler to 18 from a building on an estate in peckham. they put on the kids' shows and pro shows (which they do charge for), get the local schools in and go out to them... provide some employment for locals... brilliant. And that's what this could have been. not necessarily for kids - but something like that.


Sounds like a great project. That does not make it the Brick Box's responsibility to set it up. They have seen an opportunity and taken it. They have not prevented anyone else from proposing or setting up other projects. You never know - they may be really keen to hear from local individuals keen to set up a group similar to the Peckham one but who aren't sure where to start or just need a little support?


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## spanglechick (May 16, 2012)

boohoo said:


> The problem is which part of the community should a project serve? the old, the young, infants, toddlers, teenagers, disabled, Black, Asian, Chinese, working class, middle class, etc, etc, etc....
> 
> You can't please everyone.


no, sure - but perhaps serving areas of the community who are least served at the moment would be a good start.


----------



## spanglechick (May 16, 2012)

Rushy said:


> Sounds like a great project. That does not make it the Brick Box's responsibility to set it up. They have seen an opportunity and taken it. They have not prevented anyone else from proposing or setting up other projects. You never know - they may be really keen to hear from local individuals keen to set up a group similar to the Peckham one but aren't sure where to start or just need a little support?


no - of course not - it's just if you say something will be a community resource, that's the kind of thing people hope for because that's the kind of thing that's needed.  if they'd never used the word community, and just called it a multi-arts venue, people would, i think be less upset..


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## boohoo (May 16, 2012)

spanglechick said:


> no, sure - but perhaps serving areas of the community who are least served at the moment would be a good start.


 
I'm not sure who that is in the area. People often go for the obvious without asking if what they are offering are the right thing for that group ( and if that group needs it)


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## spanglechick (May 16, 2012)

boohoo said:


> I'm not sure who that is in the area. People often go for the obvious without asking if what they are offering are the right thing for that group ( and if that group needs it)


well quite. what consultation with local residents has happened here? not that anyone NEEDS to consult, but if you claim to be a community resource it might be an idea to know what the whole community want.


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## soupdragon (May 16, 2012)

spanglechick said:


> it might be an idea to know what the whole community want.


 
maybe a pub?

Pubs not Hubs!


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## teuchter (May 16, 2012)

The whole what community?


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## Mrs Magpie (May 16, 2012)

spanglechick said:


> no - of course not - it's just if you say something will be a community resource, that's the kind of thing people hope for because that's the kind of thing that's needed. if they'd never used the word community, and just called it a multi-arts venue, people would, i think be less upset..





spanglechick said:


> well quite. what consultation with local residents has happened here? not that anyone NEEDS to consult, but if you claim to be a community resource it might be an idea to know what the whole community want.


This sums up why I'm cross, really. Although the blurb on who they are is pretty pukesome with all that street drinker shite.


----------



## editor (May 16, 2012)

spanglechick said:


> It strikes me that a much better version of this would have been something like Theatre Peckham, which for 25+ years has been offering cheap (subsidised) theatre arts classes (dance, singing, acting) to kids from toddler to 18 from a building on an estate in peckham. they put on the kids' shows and pro shows (which they do charge for), get the local schools in and go out to them... provide some employment for locals... brilliant. And that's what this could have been. not necessarily for kids - but something like that.


Indeed. The kids on the estate around here are crying out for facilities like this - real community arts, if you will. And, as you say, there's no reason why they couldn't put on adult lessons/performances too.

Sadly, this opening venture seems to suggest that Brick Box is more interested in catering to the Brixton Villaaaage community rather than than the actual community surrounding the venue.

It seems like a missed opportunity really.


----------



## editor (May 16, 2012)

Rushy said:


> You never know - they may be really keen to hear from local individuals keen to set up a group similar to the Peckham one but who aren't sure where to start or just need a little support?


You don't think their website blurb might just be a little off-putting/confusing/alientating?

I'm not sure our resident's association would want to approach people going on about hanging about where the bins and street drinkers are.


> We look for inspiration from the streets of the world; the places that are visceral and rough and ready; where the street drinkers hang out; where the bins are kept etc etc


Just a thought, like.


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## Gramsci (May 16, 2012)

Rushy said:


> I think it is up to them whether they clarify that. Personally, I don't think most people are all that interested to know about the financial set up. But if it is important to you you should definitely ask them. They specifically invite thoughts and ideas on the same page.


 
Brick Box think it is as they say on there website they are Community Interest Company. Which memespring looked into.

I dont need to ask Ive already looked at there website. imo this event this Sat is what they think as part of there project not a fundraiser as u suggest. Thats quite clear. If you think otherwise I suggest u ask them.

If you are not interested in there financial set up thats fine. Dont say "most people" when ur talking about your opinion.


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## Gramsci (May 16, 2012)

spanglechick said:


> no - of course not - it's just if you say something will be a community resource, that's the kind of thing people hope for because that's the kind of thing that's needed. if they'd never used the word community, and just called it a multi-arts venue, people would, i think be less upset..


 
Spot on spanglechick

To say again Im not against someone using that space. Having seen this thread and looked at Brick Boxes website and FB page its them that bang on about community. If they just said they were going to do arts events I would not have a problem.


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## FridgeMagnet (May 16, 2012)

It isn't as if gentrification takes place according to the plans of a Gentrification Committee who sit in smoky rooms plotting how to expel the poor, anyway. It's (often entirely well-intentioned) commercial moves aimed at a particular incoming demographic, en masse, that do it.


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## Gramsci (May 16, 2012)

Rushy said:


> Sounds like a great project. That does not make it the Brick Box's responsibility to set it up. They have seen an opportunity and taken it. They have not prevented anyone else from proposing or setting up other projects. You never know - they may be really keen to hear from local individuals keen to set up a group similar to the Peckham one but who aren't sure where to start or just need a little support?


 
Seen what oppurtunity exactly? Are they a business or a charitable institution?

They are CIC - something they sought. See here what they say:

*We are a Community Interest Company and we are committed to sharing our time, energy, resources, profits and experiences with our fellow humans. We aim to give more than we take, share more than we keep and be open more than we are closed.*​ 
http://www.thebrickbox.co.uk/about-us.html


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## editor (May 16, 2012)

FridgeMagnet said:


> It isn't as if gentrification takes place according to the plans of a Gentrification Committee who sit in smoky rooms plotting how to expel the poor, anyway. It's (often entirely well-intentioned) commercial moves aimed at a particular incoming demographic, en masse, that does it.


Often driven by a sense of arrogance and entitlement, coupled with a gross insensitivity to the needs and circumstances of the long established - and generally poorer - existing community.


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## editor (May 16, 2012)

In case anyone's interested, it seems that Brick Box received funding from the 'Outer London Fund' at some point.
http://www.london.gov.uk/priorities/business-economy/investing-future/outer-london-town-centres

(They refer to it here)


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## netbob (May 16, 2012)

There's a couple of £1m+ grants there! Serious cash! Wonder how much they are sitting on?

Also, they are still looking for people to do the painting: http://www.do-it.org.uk/search/oppo...=mile&distance=5&location=sw98jx&pageNumber=2


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## George & Bill (May 17, 2012)

Anyone who thinks this event could have been devised by anyone other than a moron, is a moron.

This is the final word.


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## Rushy (May 17, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> Brick Box think it is as they say on there website they are Community Interest Company. Which memespring looked into.
> 
> I dont need to ask Ive already looked at there website. imo this event this Sat is what they think as part of there project not a fundraiser as u suggest. Thats quite clear. If you think otherwise I suggest u ask them.
> 
> If you are not interested in there financial set up thats fine. Dont say "most people" when ur talking about your opinion.


As I said, I don't think most people are that interested. It is a clear statement of opinion. I have no problem if you disagree with me but I'd appreciate it if you could try to resist instructing me on what opinions I can hold.


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## Rushy (May 17, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> Seen what oppurtunity exactly? Are they a business or a charitable institution?


The opportunity provided by a vacant space. Nothing more than that. Good on them.


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## teuchter (May 17, 2012)

Seems like a lot of people are assuming that "community" when mentioned in their name or website blurb necessarily refers to the immediate, local, geographically defined community rather than anything else.


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## CH1 (May 17, 2012)

teuchter said:


> Seems like a lot of people are assuming that "community" when mentioned in their name or website blurb necessarily refers to the immediate, local, geographically defined community rather than anything else.


Personally I'm thinking of joining the Greek Community @The Greek Orthodox Cathedral of the Nativity of the Mother of God, 305 Camberwell New Road, London SE5 0TF.
I was appalled to hear Alistair Heath of City AM on BBC World Service (surely this is run on behalf of the Foreign Office). He was giving graphic accounts of bank runs, past and present.
How irresponsible can you get? Discussing cash machines running out, middle classes wiped out etc etc. Anyone would think it was government policy to smash up the Euro, never mind not join it!


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## CH1 (May 17, 2012)

editor said:


> In case anyone's interested, it seems that Brick Box received funding from the 'Outer London Fund' at some point.
> http://www.london.gov.uk/priorities/business-economy/investing-future/outer-london-town-centres
> (They refer to it here)


Funding Supper Clubs whilst smashing the Euro - that's Boris!


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## Mrs Magpie (May 17, 2012)

editor said:


> Indeed. The kids on the estate around here are crying out for facilities like this - real community arts.


It's something I've seen a real lack of. I can see one example right on my doorstep. There's a great local artist who does fantastic workshops producing amazing and lasting landmarks with pensioners, learning disabled kids, teenagers, _*everyone*_. He's prizewinning, the finished artworks come in on time and on budget every time. Grant applications galore have gone off for a project on Moorlands (I know because I've been proof-reading them)  and zilch, nada, nothing. 
Then some group rock up with their background funding, say they're for the community but exclude most of it. I know people are saying oh well, it's only a fiver but the reality is, if people are going to food banks they're not going to spend a fiver to walk past and sniff the food from a £40 supper. Every time I've done a local event on Moorlands we do free food to get the kids in and charge nothing. That's the reality of the situation for a lot of people in this area. Poor.


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## Mrs Magpie (May 17, 2012)

There was also another local artist who was meeting with everyone on the community and an artwork was going to go onto the green in front of Southwyck. It's been a while now (2 years?) but there's no art work.


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## fortyplus (May 17, 2012)

"Community" is one of those words that has been made meaningless by decades of abuse. It's usually a red warning sign for some sort of newspeak monstrosity. It's amazing, after the Community Charge, that it's still got any semantic credibility at all. Somehow it still ticks some people's feelgood boxes; for me, it's a loud klaxon for bullshit wherever it occurs.


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## Winot (May 17, 2012)

Mrs Magpie said:


> It's something I've seen a real lack of.


 
I repeat: Brick Box have already put on a number of free art events for kids, and if you read their website you will see there are more free events on there.


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## boohoo (May 17, 2012)

If Brick Box had done their supper club around Poet's corner would we be happy? Are we putting in rules to separate the different communities? Expensive things in expensive areas, free stuff for the poor people?


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## boohoo (May 17, 2012)

Mrs Magpie said:


> It's something I've seen a real lack of. I can see one example right on my doorstep. There's a great local artist who does fantastic workshops producing amazing and lasting landmarks with pensioners, learning disabled kids, teenagers, _*everyone*_. He's prizewinning, the finished artworks come in on time and on budget every time. Grant applications galore have gone off for a project on Moorlands (I know because I've been proof-reading them) and zilch, nada, nothing.


Has he got feedback about why the funding isn't happening? I know with the Brixton Windmill Restoration project that the Heritage lottery fund wouldn't fund part of the project as they had funded that organisation twice all ready.


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## Mrs Magpie (May 17, 2012)

I can think of one example. Heritage Lottery said it's more Arts Council, go to them, Arts Council suggested Heritage Lottery (iirc) but we've been putting in loads of aplications, all over the shop. It's not like he hasn't got a good track record.


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## boohoo (May 17, 2012)

Mrs Magpie said:


> I can think of one example. Heritage Lottery said it's more Arts Council, go to them, Arts Council suggested Heritage Lottery (iirc) but we've been putting in loads of aplications, all over the shop. It's not like he hasn't got a good track record.


How frustrating! It sound like the sort of problem we have with looking at mural restoration. The London Mural Preservation Society are doing the heritage training for the restoration project so walks and talks - I'm taking some kids on a walk at the end of the month!


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## Mrs Magpie (May 17, 2012)

Maybe it's because his stuff isn't a one-off egg paint in the market (as I saw on Brick Box) but builds on developing skill and confidence and is a series of workshops that builds to a large permanent artwork.


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## Mrs Magpie (May 17, 2012)

He's a great artist but he doesn't come over as arty and cool though.


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## soupdragon (May 17, 2012)

Rushy said:


> The opportunity provided by a vacant space. Nothing more than that. Good on them.


So just grabbing opportunities is what we celebrate is it? How far d'you go with that?


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## boohoo (May 17, 2012)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Maybe it's because his stuff isn't a one-off egg paint in the market (as I saw on Brick Box) but builds on developing skill and confidence and is a series of workshops that builds to a large permanent artwork.


Maybe the funding is going to other groups who are doing community art work and as there is less money to go around, the project hasn't got funding (which is a shame).


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## Mrs Magpie (May 17, 2012)

boohoo said:


> Has he got feedback about why the funding isn't happening? I know with the Brixton Windmill Restoration project that the Heritage lottery fund wouldn't fund part of the project as they had funded that organisation twice all ready.


We're good at making sure there's no overlap.


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## soupdragon (May 17, 2012)

fortyplus said:


> "Community" is one of those words that has been made meaningless by decades of abuse. It's usually a red warning sign for some sort of newspeak monstrosity. It's amazing, after the Community Charge, that it's still got any semantic credibility at all. Somehow it still ticks some people's feelgood boxes; for me, it's a loud klaxon for bullshit wherever it occurs.


 
agreed - personally I still have a soft spot for the word 'Public'. I think people now think it's just got a boring feeling of bureacracy etc - but it's also the basis of the word 'Pub'. A Public House. Someone's house that opens itself to the public. Pretty radical.


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## boohoo (May 17, 2012)

soupdragon said:


> So just grabbing opportunities is what we celebrate is it? How far d'you go with that?


Well, should they be carted off to a rich area and we get in something more appropriate - how does it get funded? Are you going to volunteer to help out? Which idea is suitable for the community? Which community? How long does the project last? Can it sustain local interest?


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## Mrs Magpie (May 17, 2012)

boohoo said:


> Maybe the funding is going to other groups who are doing community art work and as there is less money to go around, the project hasn't got funding (which is a shame).


I am talking about Moorlands specifically. I think the lottery funded the dragon playground. Kids were involved in the local primary school and said they wanted a Dragon's Den but they didn't participate in the actual making. The Dragon is great but unfortunately the overall design is very poor. They put in plants on the dragon's back which is at an inviting height to climb on, so no plants after day two. They also put in all the garden bits in August but with no plans for watering  and little flowerbeds on the spaces where kids run around so that's all compacted dust now.


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## Winot (May 17, 2012)

boohoo said:


> Well, should they be carted off to a rich area and we get in something more appropriate - how does it get funded? Are you going to volunteer to help out? Which idea is suitable for the community? Which community? How long does the project last? Can it sustain local interest?



And don't forgot the final and most important test - 

Has it got the stamp of approval from the Urban 75 "community"?


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## boohoo (May 17, 2012)

Mrs Magpie said:


> I am talking about Moorlands specifically. I think the lottery funded the dragon playground. Kids were involved in the local primary school and said they wanted a Dragon's Den but they didn't participate in the actual making. The Dragon is great but unfortunately the overall design is very poor. They put in plants on the dragon's back which is at an inviting height to climb on, so no plants after day two. They also put in all the garden bits in August but with no plans for watering  and little flowerbeds on the spaces where kids run around so that's all compacted dust now.


 
Does sound like a nice idea with bad design and something that would need someone to maintain it. I'm not entirely convinced about the people who look at the applications for funding. With our first bid to restore the Brixton Windmill mural with lots of focus on the murals in Brixton and how to paint murals and the history of murals - one of the pieces of feedback we got was that they were pleased we were looking at windmills.


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## soupdragon (May 17, 2012)

boohoo said:


> Well, should they be carted off to a rich area and we get in something more appropriate - how does it get funded? Are you going to volunteer to help out? Which idea is suitable for the community? Which community? How long does the project last? Can it sustain local interest?


Don't campaign for 6 month community projects that legitimate developments of this sort. Leave it empty and develop a campaign that makes people feel angry that the pub has been sold off. Campaign for state subsidy of low cost pubs.


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## Ms T (May 17, 2012)

soupdragon said:


> Don't campaign for 6 month community projects that legitimate developments of this sort. Leave it empty and develop a campaign that makes people feel angry that the pub has been sold off. Campaign for state subsidy of low cost pubs.


 
Why should the state subsidise pubs?


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## London_Calling (May 17, 2012)

What's the matter with Weatherspoons*....

Don't answer that


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## teuchter (May 17, 2012)

Mrs Magpie said:


> He's a great artist but he doesn't come over as arty and cool though.


 
Who is it?


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## Mrs Magpie (May 17, 2012)

I'll put his name up if he says it's OK to.


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## twistedAM (May 17, 2012)

Ms T said:


> Why should the state subsidise pubs?


 
They should't but they are community centres, often more so than this particular venture.

On another level though the state has penalised pubs heavily by turning a blind eye to PubCos' activities, but that's a whole other thread.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (May 17, 2012)

What's your definition of a community centre Twisted?


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## editor (May 17, 2012)

Winot said:


> And don't forgot the final and most important test -
> 
> Has it got the stamp of approval from the Urban 75 "community"?


No one here makes any claims to represent anything other than their own opinions, and no one here is trousering hefty grants under the name of 'community arts development'.

I'd say most of the people posting in this thread are long term residents with a real care and love for the area, and many of them have been contributing to the community in various ways for years on end.

So, I'd say they're fully entitled to comment on any new, self styled 'community' developments occurring in their neighbourhood.


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## twistedAM (May 17, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> What's your definition of a community centre Twisted?


 
There's a difference between community centre and Community Centre. The former could be anything really.


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## editor (May 17, 2012)

Ms T said:


> Why should the state subsidise pubs?


I guess it's whether you give much of a fuck for old/lonely folks in rural villages losing just about the only place they can possible sit about and mingle with all age groups (and vice versa). It's not the same in urban areas packed with boozers, but there's certainly a very real and important social element played by some pubs, and losing them can be a real loss to the local community.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (May 17, 2012)

twistedAM said:


> There's a difference between community centre and Community Centre. The former could be anything really.


 
Just checking


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## Minnie_the_Minx (May 17, 2012)

editor said:


> I guess it's whether you give much of a fuck for old/lonely folks in rural villages losing just about the only place they can possible sit about and mingle with all age groups. It's not the same in urban areas packed with boozers, but there's certainly a very real and important social element played by some pubs, and losing them is a real loss to the local community.


 
Well that's the thing. Where do the old people go and drink nowadays. There's not a single pub on Brixton Hill where the elderly can now go and have a drink in the afternoon (whilst it's still light). Decades ago, George IV, White Horse, Telegraph, The Hope (Mango Landin), The Elm Park, etc. all had their regular afternoon elderly drinkers. Now, none of those pubs open 'til 5.00pm. The only ones open are the two in New Park Road or the Crown and Sceptre, and they're too far for a lot of elderly. 

Community my arse

eta:  Less than decades ago actually.  Less than 15 years ago


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## Ms T (May 17, 2012)

editor said:


> I guess it's whether you give much of a fuck for old/lonely folks in rural villages losing just about the only place they can possible sit about and mingle with all age groups (and vice versa). It's not the same in urban areas packed with boozers, but there's certainly a very real and important social element played by some pubs, and losing them can be a real loss to the local community.


 
As you point out that's not the case in Brixton, and given that the state is actively trying to discourage drinking for health reasons I'd say that subsidising pubs is way down on the list of priorities.  Especially as local authorities are cutting down on essential services for the vulnerable and elderly.


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## spanglechick (May 17, 2012)

editor said:


> I guess it's whether you give much of a fuck for old/lonely folks in rural villages losing just about the only place they can possible sit about and mingle with all age groups (and vice versa). It's not the same in urban areas packed with boozers, but there's certainly a very real and important social element played by some pubs, and losing them can be a real loss to the local community.


For the same reasons, would you support state subsidy of churches?


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## editor (May 17, 2012)

spanglechick said:


> For the same reasons, would you support state subsidy of churches?


Not sure that they need any subsidies considering the_ vast_ wealth the church holds.

But, yes, if there was a small rural church that was well attended and providing a service to all of the community, then why shouldn't it be supported?

With rural pubs facing closure, I'd suggest that they could take on additional roles to replace services that may have already closed (like mini-Post Office, library, meeting room etc etc). Some already do this in fact, although it's usually at the generosity of the landlord.


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## Mrs Magpie (May 17, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Well that's the thing. Where do the old people go and drink nowadays. There's not a single pub on Brixton Hill where the elderly can now go and have a drink in the afternoon (whilst it's still light). Decades ago, George IV, White Horse, Telegraph, The Hope (Mango Landin), The Elm Park, etc. all had their regular afternoon elderly drinkers. Now, none of those pubs open 'til 5.00pm. The only ones open are the two in New Park Road or the Crown and Sceptre, and they're too far for a lot of elderly.
> 
> Community my arse
> 
> eta: Less than decades ago actually. Less than 15 years ago


Quite a few old blokes drink in the Albert in the afternoons.


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## editor (May 17, 2012)

Ms T said:


> As you point out that's not the case in Brixton, and given that the state is actively trying to discourage drinking for health reasons I'd say that subsidising pubs is way down on the list of priorities. Especially as local authorities are cutting down on essential services for the vulnerable and elderly.


I think Loughborough Junction is far worse off for not having a pub of some description, and I'd say the locals in my neighbourhood are worse off since the closure of the Angel.

There's certainly *far* more street drinkers on Coldharbour Lane now, and many of them are quite elderly (Cue the Brick Box running down to set up their easels).

_"Cheap holiday in other people's misery!"_


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## Minnie_the_Minx (May 17, 2012)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Quite a few old blokes drink in the Albert in the afternoons.


 
I realise there are still plenty of pubs where the elderly can go, but decades ago, a local was literally a local, ie. you didn't have to go far to find one.  But try being elderly, and not that mobile on Brixton Hill, there's sod all for you if you want to chat and socialise over a pint in the (safer) daylight hours


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## spanglechick (May 17, 2012)

What happened to pop in parlours...?


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## Minnie_the_Minx (May 17, 2012)

spanglechick said:


> What happened to pop in parlours...?


 
I don't know, but they sound very rude 

*goes off to google pop in parlours*

*enlightened*


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## Winot (May 17, 2012)

editor said:


> No one here makes any claims to represent anything other than their own opinions, and no one here is trousering hefty grants under the name of 'community arts development'.
> 
> I'd say most of the people posting in this thread are long term residents with a real care and love for the area, and many of them have been contributing to the community in various ways for years on end.
> 
> So, I'd say they're fully entitled to comment on any new, self styled 'community' developments occurring in their neighbourhood.


 
Don't disagree with any of that, I just think the attacks on Brick Box are misplaced.


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## Mrs Magpie (May 17, 2012)

editor said:


> I think Loughborough Junction is far worse off for not having a pub of some description


There's the Hero of Switzerland, but the last time I went in there it was pretty glum, which is a pity as the previous landlord and landlady were great. I've been acquainted with the present landlord for about 30 years and he's never been cheery. I can't actually ever recall him smiling. Not saying a smile has never played around his lips, just that in 30 years, I've not witnessed it.


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## soupdragon (May 17, 2012)

Ms T said:


> Why should the state subsidise pubs?


 
Why should the state subsidise Brick Box?


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## BrickBoxer (May 17, 2012)

Hello everyone, I am part of the 4 person team that run The Brick Box. We're a social enterprise arts organisation formed as a community interest company. 

Thought I'd just clarify a few things:

354 Coldharbour lane, formerly The Angel which has been closed for a while now, was bought by a developer last year. Construction of flats is due to begin in 6 months time. Before this starts, we negotiated temporary use of the space. We felt it was important to make use of the opportunity rather than let it stand empty.
We are not opening the space as a pub; it wouldn't be possible on all sorts of levels for a 6 month period. We're aiming to be more inclusive by having events for and by people who don't use pubs as well as those who do. It's not supposed to be a community centre - rather an arts space which can be used by the community.
People tell us the building has both a positive and negative history - we're trying to build on the positive.
At present we are not funded or subsidised by the state, and we all work voluntarily. In order to make the project viable, we need to make some profit to fund the activities, which is why some of the events are aimed at people with a larger disposable income in order to fund activities for those who do not.
Our first event is indeed this Saturday, in collaboration with Saltoun Supper Club - an established Brixton business. It is not a private event. For people who want to have a 4 course meal it's £40 (£35 for the supper which is Arno's normal price + £5 entrance to the house). If the supper club is not your bag then entrance is £5. This covers the cost of security that we are legally obliged to supply for the safety of visitors, utilities, expenses, etc. The entertainment consists of over 30 performers and artists so it's not just 'walking around a house'. Like I say, we're a community interest company (CIC) so the majority of our profits go back in to community projects by law. If you'd like to look up our company, we're registered at Company's House.
We have been busily painting and cleaning the place (and still are!) since we moved in 2 weeks ago so when we are open officially we will have a public open evening for anyone who would like to see the space, ask us questions, and find out about getting involved.
Our model to make this project work is to fund free day time events with ticketed night time events. We are planning to host a variety of events, such as workshops, activities for children, debates, exhibitions, music, affordable food as well as supper clubs, craft fairs and jumble sales, film screenings, and much more. For instance, we are working on a free fringe event for Brixton Splash and are currently in discussions with Roadworks Media, and many other local organisations, about them using the space for workshops.
Our volunteer team is made-up of people from all walks of life, including people who were previous customers of The Angel and live locally. 
On a final note, we're keen to hear from anyone who wants to be involved in the space. We aim to facilitate it - not dictate what's good or bad, valid or not - so if you have an idea or interest, please do get in touch.
Thanks and all the best.


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## spanglechick (May 17, 2012)

soupdragon said:


> Why should the state subsidise Brick Box?


Well, categorically not standing up for brick box, but the arts - unlike alcohol sales - would dry up significantly, if not completely, without state subsidy. 

You'd only be left with commercially self-sufficient art (such as Andrew Lloyd webber megamusicals), and the capacity of the arts to reflect, empower and inspire all sections of society (especially those with no access to mainstream mouthpieces) would fall by the wayside. 

Nobody gets rich off state-subsidised arts, but lots of people are richer for it.


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## Ms T (May 17, 2012)

soupdragon said:


> Why should the state subsidise Brick Box?


 
According to the link the editor provided, the Outer London Fund is aimed at revitalising local businesses in the High Street. Whatever you think of it, Brixton Village has succeeded in promoting local enterprise.

ETA: Brick Box has just said it's not state-funded.


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## Liberty Owl (May 17, 2012)

Lots of chatter here condemning a initiative that hasn't even opened yet! I was down helping to paint at the Angel last weekend and if you'd dropped by you would have found a fairly accurate cross section of Brixton - with their paint rollers and bin-liners, the volunteers came in all shapes and sizes, all colours and hues, all social backgrounds and a good sprinkling of accents and varying degrees of seniority. A good reflection of the community BrickBox has built up around it.
That community began with the traders of Brixton village market before any fair lights went up or saturday pocket money came flooding into the market space.
No project will ever cater for every group - but Brick Box couldn't be more of an open community-led initiative - those who have been to their events in Brixton or Tooting will have been served by local school kids learning basic trade skills behind the cafe counter, told folk tales by people from the local refugee community, seen art work by struggling local painters and photographers, watched docs screened by squatters' rights group Squash, heard local bands play nervously for the first time...etc etc. Go to them with an idea and they will find a way to make it happen.
It costs a huge amount to open up an old pub and yes, if BrickBox wasn't doing it, I think there would be other 'not-so-cuddly' developers keen to get their hands on it who couldn't give a monkeys about the history of the Angel.
I would imagine that the £40 cover for a meal and night of local performance will be much needed injection of cash to get it up and running and offset their long list of community events which so far seems to include free workshops, kids space for Brixton Splash, meeting rooms and an open-ended list of arts events suggested by Brixton locals - not cheap to get an old pub set up for lots of kids running around.
It's a new project by a well-meaning, well respected local group - why not be a little less quick to judge and perhaps a little more realistic?


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## Kanda (May 17, 2012)

Liberty Owl said:


> why not be a little less quick to judge and perhaps a little more realistic?


 
Cos it's Urban 75...



All the best, hope it works out.


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## Crispy (May 17, 2012)

Liberty Owl said:


> It's a new project by a well-meaning, well respected local group - why not be a little less quick to judge and perhaps a little more realistic?


 
Nah, much easier to jerk the knee and slag it off from behind a computer screen.

Welcome to urban75 brick box people! now fuck off, you godawful nu-brixton hipster shits!

Am I doing it right?


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## Ms T (May 17, 2012)

Crispy said:


> Nah, much easier to jerk the knee and slag it off from behind a computer screen.
> 
> Welcome to urban75 brick box people! now fuck off, you godawful nu-brixton hipster shits!
> 
> Am I doing it right?


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## soupdragon (May 17, 2012)

spanglechick said:


> Well, categorically not standing up for brick box, but the arts - unlike alcohol sales - would dry up significantly, if not completely, without state subsidy.


 
yes agreed, but my point is that the state subsidises all sorts of good things, not only 'essentials' as Ms T mentions. Why's reading in libraries more important than meeting and talking and drinking in pubs? It's not, they're as important as each other. Why does the state see one as its business and the other not? Because there used to be a lack of places for people to get books, not drinks. Now we have so many books, and other media options, we don't know what to do with it all, and they say "maybe we should close them", but still we need them because many people still don't have access to them. And alongside, we also have a deficit of public places for meeting and talking and drinking.

My point, really, is that all this is because our economy is run on property bubbles. It'd be great if people could turn their creative energies to changing that. I'm sure those Brick Box people are great (hello! btw), but they are in the end part of the whole process we all / some of us moan on about. Gentrification is interior colonisation. The arts are (unwittingly, as missionaries always were) its missionaries.

I'm not completely alone in thinking this about pubs btw:

"Working-class life in Britain has become atomised, for adults as well as children. The age of the property ladder, roughly the same as the age of financial excess, played havoc with working-class communities. It gentrified Britain and dispersed its poor. It's common, again, for all immigrants to feel that their old culture wanes abroad: in Britain this sentiment has in the last generation become acute, because Muslims and eastern Europeans, for different reasons, have been treated as threats and so not integrated into local communities; the complex weave that once tied people together in London's East End or in Manchester has torn.
For all this, I don't think the prospect is hopeless, though it requires some counter-intuitive thinking. Were I George Osborne (but could I live with myself?), I would subsidise pubs rather than banks; I'd splash out on school lunches, and on dinners at schools for families; I'd make 70 the minimum age for hiring "community support officers"; I'd discourage gentrification. "
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/jul/30/asbo-icon-new-labour-negligence


----------



## Winot (May 17, 2012)

Thanks for coming here both of you. Hope you can cope with the floods of posters apologising for their incorrect assumptions. 

/sarcasm


----------



## editor (May 17, 2012)

Winot said:


> Thanks for coming here both of you. Hope you can cope with the floods of posters apologising for their incorrect assumptions.
> 
> /sarcasm


I wish them all the best but still remain of the opinion that launching their venture with an upmarket £40 per head supper club jaunt for the dressing-up crowd remains a woefully misguided introduction to the area, and that their stuff about 'hanging out where the street drinkers and the bins are' remains cringe-worthy.


----------



## Ms T (May 17, 2012)

soupdragon said:


> yes agreed, but my point is that the state subsidises all sorts of good things, not only 'essentials' as Ms T mentions. Why's reading in libraries more important than meeting and talking and drinking in pubs? It's not, they're as important as each other.


 
I don't disagree that pubs are important to the community, but they are run for private profit, unlike libraries.  And I don't think they should be a priority, when funding for essential services is at risk.


----------



## netbob (May 17, 2012)

None the less, good to see Brick Box posting here.

You guys do need to be careful though - however worthy your project, developers and the council will use it to justify their plans. e.g. spacemakers has been used to justify everything from the tesco/carpark planning application to sidelining other local groups to the rent rises that kicked out long-term traders.

I hope you really mean it about involving lots of people - when asked why the brixton village account wasnt supporting older traders in the indoor market last year I was told 'they don't get it' and 'will get business other ways'.


----------



## spanglechick (May 17, 2012)

Pubs aren't exactly the holy grail of inclusion. If you're Muslim, or if you're an older woman who was brought up believing that pubs were for men and women of low morals, or if you can't afford a pint - no matter how long you nurse it. 

I was serious about pop- in parlours, btw. A very cheap social place for all older people - plus access to routes for support if needed. And not-for-profit.


----------



## Ms T (May 17, 2012)

O


spanglechick said:


> Pubs aren't exactly the holy grail of inclusion. If you're Muslim, or if you're an older woman who was brought up believing that pubs were for men and women of low morals, or if you can't afford a pint - no matter how long you nurse it.
> 
> I was serious about pop- in parlours, btw. A very cheap social place for all older people - plus access to routes for support if needed. And not-for-profit.


 
Or if you don't drink.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 17, 2012)

spanglechick said:


> Pubs aren't exactly the holy grail of inclusion. If you're Muslim, or if you're an older woman who was brought up believing that pubs were for men and women of low morals, or if you can't afford a pint - no matter how long you nurse it.
> 
> I was serious about pop- in parlours, btw. A very cheap social place for all older people - plus access to routes for support if needed. And not-for-profit.


 
Well there's plenty of masjids/Islamic community centres around now

I didn't say pubs were the *only things* that were or used to be easily available for the elderly


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 17, 2012)

Ms T said:


> O
> 
> 
> Or if you don't drink.


 
I've known plenty of people that go to pubs and not drink, but go because it's somewhere close enough for them to meet up and socialise for a couple of hours, and yes, there are plenty that can't afford it, and no doubt women who don't like to go in on their own, but there's also those that do, and it's not just the elderly that would appreciate having somewhere to go in the daytime


----------



## editor (May 17, 2012)

spanglechick said:


> Pubs aren't exactly the holy grail of inclusion. If you're Muslim, or if you're an older woman who was brought up believing that pubs were for men and women of low morals, or if you can't afford a pint - no matter how long you nurse it.


Not sure how many old women still think that pubs are for people with low morals, but most have changed dramatically over the years. They're generally now far more open and inviting and inclusive, serve food, tea and coffee, lets kids come in and are a far cry from the smoky 'men only' boozers of yesteryear.


----------



## teuchter (May 17, 2012)

Those kinds of pubs do tend to be in more gentrified areas only, I think it's fair to say.


----------



## editor (May 17, 2012)

Ms T said:


> Or if you don't drink.


You don't have to drink to go in a pub.


----------



## editor (May 17, 2012)

teuchter said:


> Those kinds of pubs do tend to be in more gentrified areas only, I think it's fair to say.


Not true at all. Loads of pubs in tourist areas are generally more inviting, as are ones on walkers trails/by National Parks etc.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (May 17, 2012)

editor said:


> Not sure how many old women still think that pubs are for people with low morals, but most have changed dramatically over the years. They're generally now far more open and inviting and inclusive, serve food, tea and coffee, lets kids come in and are a far cry from the smoky 'men only' boozers of yesteryear.


 
Which is a change that would be seen as a symptom of gentrification by a lot of people.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 17, 2012)

teuchter said:


> Those kinds of pubs do tend to be in more gentrified areas only, I think it's fair to say.


 
I don't think you could class New Park Road as a gentrified area and they have two pubs that are open in the daytime


----------



## editor (May 17, 2012)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> Which is a change that would be seen as a symptom of gentrification by a lot of people.


What, pubs letting in kids? Or offering tea?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 17, 2012)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> Which is a change that would be seen as a symptom of gentrification by a lot of people.


 
Not at all.  The pubs had no choice in that matter so it's not something I'd link to gentrification at all


----------



## Kanda (May 17, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> I don't think you could class New Park Road as a gentrified area and they have two pubs that are open in the daytime


 
The Hand is opening a restaurant out the back!!


----------



## Kanda (May 17, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> I don't think you could class New Park Road as a gentrified area and they have two pubs that are open in the daytime


 
3 in a small area if you count The Crown and Septic


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 17, 2012)

Kanda said:


> The Hand is opening a restaurant out the back!!


 
Yes I know.  Is it Thai?

Maybe all the Granville Arcaders will invade NPR


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 17, 2012)

Kanda said:


> 3 in a small area if you count The Crown and Septic


 
Even I don't want to use the loos in the Crown and Septic 

It's a fair walk though for someone further down the Hill, although pensioners do have their free passes but plenty of them don't even like getting on buses

Is good for being able to sit outside though, although a few months ago, I saw an elderly guy on crutches fall down the stairs out the back 

and I tell you what really pisses me off about the George IV and White Horse.  Barricading their frontages in.    Needed to sit down a while ago, but no, they're all fenced off so you can't even sit down and wait for the pub to open if you just happen to be there 10 minutes before it opens


----------



## Kanda (May 17, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Yes I know. Is it Thai?


 
No, she's doing a bit of everything... should be open this weekend I think.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 17, 2012)

Will the food only be after a certain time (ie. the evenings) or can I get some in the daytime as well?

Any idea of prices?


----------



## Kanda (May 17, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Really?


 
She was aiming to, maybe next.


----------



## teuchter (May 17, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> I don't think you could class New Park Road as a gentrified area and they have two pubs that are open in the daytime


 
I'd say NPR is moderately gentrified.

I don't really know those pubs though. But are they the kind of pubs that my 70ish-year-old mum would want to go and have a coffee in?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 17, 2012)

teuchter said:


> I'd say NPR is moderately gentrified.
> 
> I don't really know those pubs though. But are they the kind of pubs that my 70ish-year-old mum would want to go and have a coffee in?


 
I think she'd be perfectly comfortable in the Hand-in-Hand.

Depends on whether she's as cheerful as you of course


----------



## teuchter (May 17, 2012)

editor said:


> Not true at all. Loads of pubs in tourist areas are generally more inviting, as are ones on walkers trails/by National Parks etc.


 
Well, that covers most of the un-gentrified bits of South London, then.


----------



## Kanda (May 17, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> I think she'd be perfectly comfortable in the Hand-in-Hand.
> 
> Depends on whether she's as cheerful as you of course


 
Except they don't  do coffee... 

NPR Gentrified??? lol


----------



## teuchter (May 17, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> I think she'd be perfectly comfortable in the Hand-in-Hand.
> 
> Depends on whether she's as cheerful as you of course


 
Her cheerfulness would be directly related to whether the coffee was any good.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 17, 2012)

teuchter said:


> Her cheerfulness would be directly related to whether the coffee was any good.


 
Well as the Hand doesn't do any, wonders about The Sultan 

The Sultan does have a lovely big garden as well


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 17, 2012)

Kanda said:


> Except they don't do coffee...
> 
> NPR Gentrified??? lol


 
He's obviously not been in The Sultan


----------



## Kanda (May 17, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Well as the Hand doesn't do any, wonders about The Sultan
> 
> The Sultan does have a lovely big garden as well


 
Nope.


----------



## teuchter (May 17, 2012)

NPR has a vintage tat shop at the end of it now, doesn't it? Clearly not untainted by gentrification. And the block of yuppie flats where they have parties and keep AJ awake. And the telegraph shut down amidst complaints about noise from the residents. And a Sainsbury. And Kanda drinks there.


----------



## Ms T (May 17, 2012)

I live in a gentrified bit of Brixton (near Poet's Corner) and my parents still think it's a dump!


----------



## Crispy (May 17, 2012)

teuchter said:


> NPR has a vintage tat shop at the end of it now, doesn't it? Clearly not untainted by gentrification.


Cafe/tat shop. The food is cheap and wholesome.


----------



## Kanda (May 17, 2012)

teuchter said:


> NPR has a vintage tat shop at the end of it now, doesn't it? Clearly not untainted by gentrification. And the block of yuppie flats where they have parties and keep AJ awake. And the telegraph shut down amidst complaints about noise from the residents. And a Sainsbury. And Kanda drinks there.


 
The penthouse flat there is a shit tip owned by a 'group' of people, pretty bad state of disrepair,  they're hardly yuppies in that block. But yeah, they did get the Telegraph shut down, wankers.

Vintage tat shop?? It's just a shitty cafe.

I'm moving away so I don't count


----------



## editor (May 17, 2012)

In my world, if you move into a new shiny 'lifestyle' block right next to a well established lively pub and then start complaining about the noise, the pub should automatically get an additional hour added to their late license.


----------



## Kanda (May 17, 2012)

editor said:


> In my world, if you move into a new shiny 'lifestyle' block right next to a well established lively pub and then start complaining about the noise, the pub should automatically get an additional hour added to their late license.


 
Completely agree  It's hardly a lifestyle block though, it's converted offices isn't it? The flats aren't very nice inside...


----------



## editor (May 17, 2012)

Kanda said:


> Completely agree  It's hardly a lifestyle block though, it's converted offices isn't it? The flats aren't very nice inside...


I was talking in more general terms, although that's what happened at the Duke of Edinburgh and I fear will happen on Coldharbour Lane too when Clifton Mansions gets lifestyled up.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 17, 2012)

editor said:


> In a FREE night in a pub full of locals, you clueless oaf. Most of the Actionettes have lived in Brixton or thereabouts for years on end too.
> 
> Cheap shot. Pathetic.


 
That's teuchter for you.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 17, 2012)

editor said:


> If I was opening a community arts venture in a neighbourhood, I'd maybe start by inviting the local community in for an open day and tell them all about what we're up to, rather than launching with an exclusive supper club bash.
> 
> Seems more appropriate to me.
> 
> But each to their own.


 
Depends what you (i.e. *they*) mean by "local community", really. Somehow I think their definition isn't quite in step with yours.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 17, 2012)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Loads. Even primary schools.


 
And at least one secondary school (Dick Sheppard).


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 17, 2012)

Kanda said:


> I'm moving away so I don't count


 



where you going?


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 17, 2012)

soupdragon said:


> So just grabbing opportunities is what we celebrate is it? How far d'you go with that?


 
Rushy can't answer you right now, as I grabbed the opportunity to separate him from his wallet and brain him with a tyre lever.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 17, 2012)

Mrs Magpie said:


> There's the Hero of Switzerland, but the last time I went in there it was pretty glum, which is a pity as the previous landlord and landlady were great. I've been acquainted with the present landlord for about 30 years and he's never been cheery. I can't actually ever recall him smiling. Not saying a smile has never played around his lips, just that in 30 years, I've not witnessed it.


 
Perhaps he's got permanent bi-hemispheric Bell's Palsy? 
You never know!


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 17, 2012)

Ms T said:


> I don't disagree that pubs are important to the community, but they are run for private profit, unlike libraries. And I don't think they should be a priority, when funding for essential services is at risk.


 
What are "essential services", though? Where my parents live in rural Norfolk, their local "community centre", the village pub, has been taken away from them 3 times (minimum) in two years because the pubco that owns the freehold is more interested in bilking new lessees than it is in serving any local community. For the (mostly middle-aged or older) residents of that village the pub was/is an "essential service". It's the place where the local community meetings took place, in whose back field the local 5-a-side team trained. This is a village that doesn't get much for it's Council Tax in terms of stuff like mains sewerage (none) or local amenities (few and far-between).
The "esssential services" argument always gets used, but very rarely gets quantified.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 17, 2012)

spanglechick said:


> Pubs aren't exactly the holy grail of inclusion. If you're Muslim, or if you're an older woman who was brought up believing that pubs were for men and women of low morals, or if you can't afford a pint - no matter how long you nurse it.
> 
> I was serious about pop- in parlours, btw. A very cheap social place for all older people - plus access to routes for support if needed. And not-for-profit.


 
Greebo's late nan used to volunteer at a pop-in centre, and she was quite clear that there were a minority of older folk who wouldn't use it because of the impression (that they were "old" and/or "lonely") it gave.
That said, personally I reckon they actually stayed away because they'd heard stories about her apple pies, and how they could be used as discuses.


----------



## Kanda (May 17, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> where you going?



Not entirely sure yet. Waiting for house sale to go through, going to rent somewhere.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 17, 2012)

Kanda said:


> Not entirely sure yet. Waiting for house sale to go through, going to rent somewhere.


 
There's some new properties going up in Coldharbour Lane


----------



## T & P (May 17, 2012)




----------



## ViolentPanda (May 17, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> There's some new properties going up in Coldharbour Lane


 
Rotter!


----------



## Kanda (May 17, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> There's some new properties going up in Coldharbour Lane



Ha! No thanks! Out of Brixton is looking the better choice


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 17, 2012)

Kanda said:


> Ha! No thanks! Out of Brixton is looking the better choice


 
Too posh for Brixton now eh?  

Clapham?


----------



## Kanda (May 17, 2012)

Brixton becoming too posh for me more like


----------



## Greebo (May 17, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> <snip>I reckon they actually stayed away because they'd heard stories about her apple pies, and how they could be used as discuses.


Incidentally, it's more or less true about the pies.  More an excuse to have custard than anything.  The same as her meat pies were more an excuse to have plenty of gravy.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 17, 2012)

Kanda said:


> Brixton becoming too posh for me more like


 
Know how you feel


----------



## Gramsci (May 17, 2012)

spanglechick said:


> For the same reasons, would you support state subsidy of churches?


 
This did happen in Communist Poland. In exchange for losing the land the church owned the State gave the church an allowance every year.


----------



## Gramsci (May 17, 2012)

Liberty Owl said:


> Lots of chatter here condemning a initiative that hasn't even opened yet! I was down helping to paint at the Angel last weekend and if you'd dropped by you would have found a fairly accurate cross section of Brixton - with their paint rollers and bin-liners, the volunteers came in all shapes and sizes, all colours and hues, all social backgrounds and a good sprinkling of accents and varying degrees of seniority. A good reflection of the community BrickBox has built up around it.
> That community began with the traders of Brixton village market before any fair lights went up or saturday pocket money came flooding into the market space.
> No project will ever cater for every group - but Brick Box couldn't be more of an open community-led initiative - those who have been to their events in Brixton or Tooting will have been served by local school kids learning basic trade skills behind the cafe counter, told folk tales by people from the local refugee community, seen art work by struggling local painters and photographers, watched docs screened by squatters' rights group Squash, heard local bands play nervously for the first time...etc etc. Go to them with an idea and they will find a way to make it happen.
> It costs a huge amount to open up an old pub and yes, if BrickBox wasn't doing it, I think there would be other 'not-so-cuddly' developers keen to get their hands on it who couldn't give a monkeys about the history of the Angel.
> ...


 
Hi Liberty Owl. I checked your previous posts and they were just adverts for Brick Box. Asking for volunteers or advertising events.

I assumed this user name is actually Brick Box and not an individual? Im going on the previous (2) posts here. This third post is written as though its from an individual. You say " I would imagine that the £40...will be much needed injection of cash" for example. If this is a Brick Box user name you would know if this is the case. Can you explain this?


----------



## spanglechick (May 17, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> Hi Liberty Owl. I checked your previous posts and they were just adverts for Brick Box. Asking for volunteers or advertising events.
> 
> I assumed this user name is actually Brick Box and not an individual? Im going on the previous (2) posts here. This third post is written as though its from an individual. You say " I would imagine that the £40...will be much needed injection of cash" for example. If this is a Brick Box user name u would know if this is the case. Can u explain this?


Point of order, Gramsci - since when has this been a fucking website where it was acceptable to type 'u' for 'you'?


----------



## Gramsci (May 17, 2012)

spanglechick said:


> Point of order, Gramsci - since when has this been a fucking website where it was acceptable to type 'u' for 'you'?


 
Is this a joke?


----------



## spanglechick (May 17, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> Is this a joke?


well, it's cheeky of me to point it out, but the sentiment is genuine. how fucking inconsiderate and lazy do you need to be to begrudge people two letters of a three letter word?


----------



## gabi (May 17, 2012)

Kanda said:


> Cos it's Urban 75...
> 
> 
> 
> All the best, hope it works out.


 
Not quite sure why this thing is being bagged by the urban massive yet a pub a few mins walk away charging £8 a pint is being lauded.. but there ya go. It's Urban.


----------



## spanglechick (May 17, 2012)

yeah - the selectiveness of what does and doesn't count as gentrification does amuse me.


----------



## Belushi (May 18, 2012)

gabi said:


> Not quite sure why this thing is being bagged by the urban massive yet a pub a few mins walk away charging £8 a pint is being lauded.. but there ya go. It's Urban.


 
Because you're the only one who's got charged £8 for a pint there


----------



## gabi (May 18, 2012)

smacks a lot of a sort of reverse NIMBYism


----------



## gabi (May 18, 2012)

Belushi said:


> Because you're the only one who's got charged £8 for a pint there


 
Er, yeh.. Other than the other people attempting to order a pint of sierra that is, dickface


----------



## editor (May 18, 2012)

Belushi said:


> Because you're the only one who's got charged £8 for a pint there


LOL. That's like going in a restaurant, ordering the most expensive meal on the menu and then complaining about the price!

I've never accidentally bought an £8 pint. I just bought the cheaper ones.


----------



## gabi (May 18, 2012)

Well... tbf ed.. cheapest lager there? Brooklyn lager at £5. when i was there.. 'sorry, its off, we're sold out'.


----------



## gabi (May 18, 2012)

im sure its a lovely pub, but its owned by an affluent trustafarian and im not sure how this differs much from whats happening at the angel?


----------



## editor (May 18, 2012)

spanglechick said:


> well, it's cheeky of me to point it out, but the sentiment is genuine. how fucking inconsiderate and lazy do you need to be to begrudge people two letters of a three letter word?


Probably about as 'fucking inconsiderate and as lazy' as not bothering to use capital letters, if being tediously pedantic is your thing.


----------



## editor (May 18, 2012)

gabi said:


> Well... tbf ed.. cheapest lager there? Brooklyn lager at £5. when i was there.. 'sorry, its off, we're sold out'.


That's what you can expect when you go to a real ale pub and ask for lager


----------



## spanglechick (May 18, 2012)

mebbs.  i don't see capitals as creating the same cognitive hiccup for the reader. *shrug*  

anyway, like i say, was just being cheeky.


----------



## gabi (May 18, 2012)

my real ale chugging mate loves it there so i accept it's not for me. i hate real ale. but surely they could accomodate people with tastebuds too.


----------



## Belushi (May 18, 2012)

editor said:


> LOL. That's like going in a restaurant, ordering the most expensive meal on the menu and then complaining about the price!
> 
> I've never accidentally bought an £8 pint. I just bought the cheaper ones.


 
I looked at the prices they've got helpfully chalked up on a blackboard, tried a range of ales I hadn't heard of for around £4 - £4.50, all excellent.


----------



## editor (May 18, 2012)

spanglechick said:


> mebbs. i don't see capitals as creating the same cognitive hiccup for the reader. *shrug*


What the fuck is "mebbs"?


----------



## editor (May 18, 2012)

Belushi said:


> I looked at the prices they've got helpfully chalked up on a blackboard, tried a range of ales I hadn't heard of for around £4 - £4.50, all excellent.


Mine was a fairly reasonable £3.30 a pint. A shade more than than I'd usually pay, but it was very well kept and a very good beer.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (May 18, 2012)

gabi said:


> im sure its a lovely pub, but its owned by an affluent trustafarian and im not sure how this differs much from whats happening at the angel?


Maybe this thread is about a specific situation?


----------



## lang rabbie (May 18, 2012)

"Jesters do oft prove prophets"
(second time I have used that this week!)




			
				hatboy in the ancient times said:
			
		

> the Angel must become "Starbucks".


----------



## Gramsci (May 18, 2012)

spanglechick said:


> Point of order, Gramsci - since when has this been a fucking website where it was acceptable to type 'u' for 'you'?


 

Had another look at it and it is rather aesthetically displeasing so altered it. 

Fucking happy now


----------



## Gramsci (May 18, 2012)

lang rabbie said:


> "Jesters do oft prove prophets"
> (second time I have used that this week!)
> 
> the Angel must become "Starbucks".


 
this link doesn't  work LR


----------



## lang rabbie (May 18, 2012)

Any better now?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 18, 2012)

lang rabbie said:


> Any better now?


 
nope


----------



## teuchter (May 18, 2012)

spanglechick said:


> Point of order, Gramsci - since when has this been a fucking website where it was acceptable to type 'u' for 'you'?


 
Since it was acceptable for people to have garish avatars.


----------



## Belushi (May 18, 2012)

lang rabbie said:


> "Jesters do oft prove prophets"
> (second time I have used that this week!)


 
He wasn't wrong


----------



## teuchter (May 18, 2012)

lang rabbie said:


> Any better now?


I think this is what you're after

http://www.urban75.net/forums/threa...ot-an-anti-gentrification-thread-honest.6238/


----------



## lang rabbie (May 18, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> nope


 
Try clicking my edited post- not Gramsci's quote of the original


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 18, 2012)

lang rabbie said:


> Try clicking my edited post- not Gramsci's quote of the original


 
Who said I did that?  And stop rolling your eyes at me.

I can see it now


----------



## Belushi (May 18, 2012)

We need Anna Keys back. I know he's a pain in the arse but when you absolutely, totally need to piss on a gentrifiers chips, he's your man.


----------



## crawl (May 18, 2012)

RaverDrew said:


> As a regular street drinker I'm actually quite proud that I'm somehow inspiring and giving something back to the community


 
Maybe you and I can hang in front of the Angel drinking Tennant's and eating a Morley's 99p burger and make it a night. Welcome the 40 pounder club


----------



## Rushy (May 18, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Rushy can't answer you right now, as I grabbed the opportunity to separate him from his wallet and brain him with a tyre lever.


Ahhh. Bless the sweet fantasies of the housebound.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 18, 2012)

Rushy said:


> Ahhh. Bless the sweet fantasies of the housebound.


 
Twas merely an illustration of "opportunity grabbing", dear boy.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 18, 2012)

Kanda said:


> Except they don't do coffee...
> 
> NPR Gentrified??? lol


 
Is the old electricals shop there?


----------



## Kanda (May 18, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Is the old electricals shop there?


 
Old furniture/old appliances? Near Happy Shopper? Yup. 

Nell's Deli is gone, that whole frontage is pound shops, Angela's cafe, a barbers and a somali cafe. There's a wierd shop that I'm sure is a hashheads front, the Happy shopper, Sultan and Hand. Gentrified? I think not


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 18, 2012)

Kanda said:


> Old furniture/old appliances? Near Happy Shopper? Yup.
> 
> Nell's Deli is gone, that whole frontage is pound shops, Angela's cafe, a barbers and a somali cafe. There's a wierd shop that I'm sure is a hashheads front, the Happy shopper, Sultan and Hand. Gentrified? I think not


 
oh, that weird shop is erm... weird 

Can't think of another word to describe it. 

It looks like the type of shop that should be in Brixton Village if anyone was sure exactly what type of shop it is


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 18, 2012)

Kanda said:


> Old furniture/old appliances? Near Happy Shopper? Yup.


 
Back when I lived on Clapham Park estate I ended up taking quite a few bits and pieces of hi-fi up there for him to repair. Excellent fella, good prices and good service.



> Nell's Deli is gone, that whole frontage is pound shops, Angela's cafe, a barbers and a somali cafe. There's a wierd shop that I'm sure is a hashheads front, the Happy shopper, Sultan and Hand. Gentrified? I think not


 
TBF, I can't actually imagine NPR "gentrified. A couple of the side roads, maybe, but NPR itself? It's too "local"!


----------



## Kanda (May 18, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Back when I lived on Clapham Park estate I ended up taking quite a few bits and pieces of hi-fi up there for him to repair. Excellent fella, good prices and good service.


 
Looks a bit like Albert Einstein?

Some of the locals have moaned about the Somali 'gentrification'... that's about it...


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 18, 2012)

Kanda said:


> Looks a bit like Albert Einstein?


 
Yes, slightly better hair control, though!



> Some of the locals have moaned about the Somali 'gentrification'... that's about it...


 
Probably the descendents of the people in the '70s moaning about the shops being taken over by "West Indians and Pakistanis", and how "those people" lived 20 to a house.


----------



## Rushy (May 18, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Twas merely an illustration of "opportunity grabbing", dear boy.


No offence taken. I was only politely smiling at the image which you put in my mind of you commanding me to stand still whilst you had a few attempts at grabbing the opportunity . Bless ...


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 18, 2012)

Rushy said:


> No offence taken. I was only politely smiling at the image which you put in my mind of you commanding me to stand still whilst you had a few attempts at grabbing the opportunity . Bless ...


 
One of the benefits of using a pair of walking sticks, is how easily you can trip people with them.


----------



## Kanda (May 18, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Yes, slightly better hair control, though!


 
Yup, he's still there  Hair a bit more out of control though...





ViolentPanda said:


> Probably the descendents of the people in the '70s moaning about the shops being taken over by "West Indians and Pakistanis", and how "those people" lived 20 to a house.


 
Yup


----------



## Rushy (May 18, 2012)

soupdragon said:


> So just grabbing opportunities is what we celebrate is it? How far d'you go with that?


 
I'd say it is clear enough within the context of the thread and immediate conversation with G that I am saying that they have recognised and taken the opportunity posed by a specific temporarily unused building and done something constructive with it. To my knowledge, their taking the opportunity did not even exclude anyone else from taking it as there were no other proposals other than vacancy. I appreciate that you may not like who you think they are, what you believe they stand for, precisely who you have deduced they hope to serve, some of the specific details of what they have chosen to do with the building, some of their copy-writing or even what they had for breakfast. And that's fine.

However, the inference that this somehow equates to a more global proposition that it is necessary to _celebrate _the _grabbing _of any opportunity whatsoever in any context and without any parameters, whilst easier to rally against, seems a bit random.


----------



## Rushy (May 18, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> One of the benefits of using a pair of walking sticks, is how easily you can trip people with them.


Just bless, bless, bless.


----------



## Rushy (May 18, 2012)

spanglechick said:


> i think the justified frustration with the nature of the event (the fiver is a red herring, IMO - like i say, that's cheap for a school play, ime), is that in the earlier publicity the use of the word 'community' was understandably taken to mean inclusive of the whole local population - especially given the part of brixton and the history of the site. So, somewhere accessible and not elitist... whereas what they've chosen to put on for their opening night is, well, for want of a less overused word... hipster.
> 
> so yes, young, childfree professionals are part of the community of brixton, and that's the part of the community brick box would appear to be interested in. but really there's no shortage of arts spaces doing this sort of thing in london. this section of the community is already catered for. they have every right to do it, but it seems unfair, when other parts of the community have so little.
> 
> It strikes me that a much better version of this would have been something like Theatre Peckham, which for 25+ years has been offering cheap (subsidised) theatre arts classes (dance, singing, acting) to kids from toddler to 18 from a building on an estate in peckham. they put on the kids' shows and pro shows (which they do charge for), get the local schools in and go out to them... provide some employment for locals... brilliant. And that's what this could have been. not necessarily for kids - but something like that.


 
Just a thought but anyone looking for a venue for doing something like Theatre Peckham could try contacting St Matthews Tenants Hall. It's close to central Brixton and has a large underutilised hall with a stage (with a foyer and bar, which is in fairly regular use).  I'm not sure what their initial reaction would be to dealing with 'outsiders' as they have historically had a tendency to be a little exclusive. Their Jubilee Party pamphlet says "Come and meet new friends" but then "Residents only. PROOF REQUIRED". And until recently they had a sign on the door saying "No Yuppies". But worth a try if it will also provide a service for kids on the estate.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 18, 2012)

Kanda said:


> Looks a bit like Albert Einstein?
> 
> Some of the locals have moaned about the Somali 'gentrification'... that's about it...


 
I've never actually seen him but seen a guy that looks like Albert Einstein living locally


----------



## Kanda (May 18, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> I've never actually seen him but seen a guy that looks like Albert Einstein living locally


 
Probably the owner of the shop then.. drinks in The Hand sometimes too.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 18, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Yes, slightly better hair control, though!
> 
> 
> 
> Probably the descendents of the people in the '70s moaning about the shops being taken over by "West Indians and Pakistanis", and how "those people" lived 20 to a house.


 
But all perfectly happy to use their shops late at night


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 18, 2012)

Kanda said:


> Probably the owner of the shop then.. drinks in The Hand sometimes too.


 
Probably preferable to his local pub


----------



## boohoo (May 18, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Probably the descendents of the people in the '70s moaning about the shops being taken over by "West Indians and Pakistanis", and how "those people" lived 20 to a house.


 
I've sometimes found that the people moaning about people coming over here taking our jobs are descendants of the West Indians and Pakistanis.


----------



## Gramsci (May 18, 2012)

teuchter said:


> Since it was acceptable for people to have garish avatars.


 
My cat is coming to stick his claws into u ,whoops, you.

He is sophisticated not "garish".


----------



## soupdragon (May 18, 2012)

Rushy said:


> I'd say it is clear enough within the context of the thread and immediate conversation with G that I am saying that they have recognised and taken the opportunity posed by a specific temporarily unused building and done something constructive with it. To my knowledge, their taking the opportunity did not even exclude anyone else from taking it as there were no other proposals other than vacancy. I appreciate that you may not like who you think they are, what you believe they stand for, precisely who you have deduced they hope to serve, some of the specific details of what they have chosen to do with the building, some of their copy-writing or even what they had for breakfast. And that's fine.
> 
> However, the inference that this somehow equates to a more global proposition that it is necessary to _celebrate _the _grabbing _of any opportunity whatsoever in any context and without any parameters, whilst easier to rally against, seems a bit random.


 
I don't have a problem with any of the specific things you mention. I have a problem with what they legitimate.

I'm not taking it to a global level, just one up the chain - what about the landlord or brewery or whoever it was that made a buck by selling it off to a developer for housing?

Do you celebrate them grabbing that opportunity?


----------



## editor (May 18, 2012)

Rushy said:


> And until recently they had a sign on the door saying "No Yuppies".


I like the sound of these people.


----------



## Rushy (May 18, 2012)

soupdragon said:


> I don't have a problem with any of the specific things you mention. I have a problem with what they legitimate.
> 
> I'm not taking it to a global level, just one up the chain - what about the landlord or brewery or whoever it was that made a buck by selling it off to a developer for housing?
> 
> Do you celebrate them grabbing that opportunity?


Celebrate and grab are your words and a little loaded for me. But to answer your question specifically:

I have no issue with the previous owner of the building selling it. It was sold _as a pub_ at a public auction without any planning permission for residential.
I have no issue with the principle of converting the rear garages and existing upper and proposed third floors into self-contained residential although I think that the current proposal may be rejected as too intensive without enough amenity space.
I am pleased to see it is proposed that the A3 unit (the pub itself) be retained as an A3 unit.
I am pleased to see that the original Victorian frontage will be retained.
(Hopefully it will not remain orange but, whatever..).

None of this has any bearing on what Brick Box are doing with it whilst it awaits a planning decision and refurbishment. It is a vacant unused building where they can ply their arty shizzle for a short while on a tight budget.


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## Rushy (May 18, 2012)

editor said:


> I like the sound of these people.


 
I thought you would.
I'd be genuinely interested to see what they'd make of you.


----------



## shakespearegirl (May 18, 2012)

I am pleased to see it is proposed that the A3 unit (the pub itself) be retained as an A3 unit.

I wish Lambeth would force developers to ensure these ground floor A3 spaces were leased to businesses. The two in LJ have languished empty for years (one is finally now a council funded centre) as the developers massively overpriced them. In my cynical opinion they wanted to leave them empty until the council relented and let them put more flats in to the space. Disgraceful


----------



## editor (May 18, 2012)

Rushy said:


> I thought you would.
> I'd be genuinely interested to see what they'd make of you.


That's a strange thing to say. What do you mean?


----------



## teuchter (May 18, 2012)

shakespearegirl said:


> I am pleased to see it is proposed that the A3 unit (the pub itself) be retained as an A3 unit.
> 
> I wish Lambeth would force developers to ensure these ground floor A3 spaces were leased to businesses. The two in LJ have languished empty for years (one is finally now a council funded centre) as the developers massively overpriced them. In my cynical opinion they wanted to leave them empty until the council relented and let them put more flats in to the space. Disgraceful


 
Exactly what happened here

http://www.urban75.net/forums/threa...-hill-road-wanless-road.280482/#post-10482979


----------



## Kanda (May 18, 2012)

editor said:


> That's a strange thing to say. What do you mean?


 
They may think you a yuppie?


----------



## editor (May 18, 2012)

shakespearegirl said:


> I am pleased to see it is proposed that the A3 unit (the pub itself) be retained as an A3 unit.


Hmmm...:



CH1 said:


> The planning application is out for consultation with a deadline of 22nd March: 12/00598/FUL
> Haven't checked the drawings yet myself, but the write-up is clear much as you predicted: "Construction of four 2 storey mews houses within the footprint of existing out buildings and the conversion of the upper floors with additional storey to the existing pub building (end terrace) to provide 9no.apartments in total comprising 4 no. 1 bedroom, 3 no. 2 bedroom and 1no. 3 bedroom units, cycle storage and private/ communal amenity space."


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## editor (May 18, 2012)

Kanda said:


> They may think you a yuppie?


Stupid comment.


----------



## editor (May 18, 2012)

shakespearegirl said:


> I wish Lambeth would force developers to ensure these ground floor A3 spaces were leased to businesses. The two in LJ have languished empty for years (one is finally now a council funded centre) as the developers massively overpriced them. In my cynical opinion they wanted to leave them empty until the council relented and let them put more flats in to the space. Disgraceful


Exactly what is happening at 'The Viaduct' next to the Villaaaage and probably what we'll get at (guffaw) 'Brixton Square.'


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## Kanda (May 18, 2012)

editor said:


> Stupid comment.


 
I'm just trying to suss out what he meant... don't blame me


----------



## Winot (May 18, 2012)

Kanda said:


> .
> Nell's Deli is gone



Evidence of the opposite of gentrification I'd say.


----------



## shakespearegirl (May 18, 2012)

editor said:


> Hmmm...:




Rushy said that not me, I just cocked up the quoting! Developers should be penalised in some way for this type of behaviour.


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## teuchter (May 18, 2012)

Kanda said:


> They may think you a yuppie?


 
Prepare for a specially tailored and dynamically adjusted editor definition of "yuppie" over the next few pages


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## editor (May 18, 2012)

teuchter said:


> Prepare for a specially tailored and dynamically adjusted editor definition of "yuppie" over the next few pages


If pig-ignorant twats want to convince themselves that I'm a yuppie, I've really no interest in bothering with such a pathetic discussion.


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## Crispy (May 18, 2012)

Well he ain't that young, and I'd call him more sideways-mobile than upwards.

The cat is pretty hip, though.


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## Kanda (May 18, 2012)

editor said:


> If pig-ignorant twats want to convince themselves that I'm a yuppie, I've really no interest in bothering with such a pathetic discussion.


 
Who is convincing who? It was a jovial guess at what he meant... woah, calm down.. !


----------



## editor (May 18, 2012)

Kanda said:


> Who is convincing who? It was a jovial guess at what he meant... woah, calm down.. !


I wasn't replying to you.


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## shakespearegirl (May 18, 2012)

If my experience of Lambeth planning is anything to go by BrixBox will be there for a lot longer than 6 months.

Consultation on a development adjoining us finished over 5 months ago. We've only just had a site visit from the planning officer, and this only happened because we crashed and chased. Were told it would be at least another 6 weeks before its referred to committee


----------



## Rushy (May 18, 2012)

editor said:


> That's a strange thing to say. What do you mean?


 
I thought that you may interpret that as a slight on you, Ed, but none was intended.

It is just that you were so quick to associate yourself with a group because of their dislike of yuppies (whatever you each mean by that), that it made me wonder whether, in the same way that someone might be pidgeon-holed because of their suit or job, you might find yourself pidgeon-holed as (for argument's sake) a bit of a hippy. Some groups just aren't all that tolerant of people outwardly different to themselves, I guess, so they treat them with suspicion, assume generalisations about them and keep them at arm's length. It's convenient and safe.


I'm not saying that _would_ happen at that bar, but I wonder whether it might.


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## Rushy (May 18, 2012)

editor said:


> Hmmm...:


 
The plans very clearly show the retention of A3 on the ground floor.

http://planning-docs.lambeth.gov.uk/AnitePublicDocs/00329688.pdf

Based on the strength of your feelings on the matter I had naturally assumed that you had actually looked at the proposal.


----------



## Rushy (May 18, 2012)

teuchter said:


> Exactly what happened here
> 
> http://www.urban75.net/forums/threa...-hill-road-wanless-road.280482/#post-10482979


It's not quite the same. There hasn't been anything on that site for ages so it can't be strongly argued that something is being lost by the current community. It is treated as more of a blank canvas.


----------



## editor (May 18, 2012)

Rushy said:


> The plans very clearly show the retention of A3 on the ground floor.
> 
> http://planning-docs.lambeth.gov.uk/AnitePublicDocs/00329688.pdf
> 
> Given your very strong feelings on the matter I am surprised that you haven't taken the time to look at the proposal.


I don't believe it will ever reopen up as a pub, just the same as what's happened as Loughborough Junction because it will now be surrounded by nu-residents who will object to the noise and disturbance.
I said that the time.


----------



## editor (May 18, 2012)

Rushy said:


> I thought that you may interpret that as a slight on you, Ed, but none was intended.
> 
> It is just that you were so quick to associate yourself with a group because of their dislike of yuppies (whatever you each mean by that), that it made me wonder whether, in the same way that someone might be pidgeon-holed because of their suit or job, you might find yourself pidgeon-holed as (for argument's sake) a bit of a hippy. Some groups just aren't all that tolerant of people outwardly different to themselves, I guess, so they treat them with suspicion, assume generalisations about them and keep them at arm's length. It's convenient and safe.
> 
> I'm not saying that _would_ happen at that bar, but I wonder whether it might.


I think you're reading an awful lot into a throwaway remark and I frankly wish the debate would stop focussing on me.

FYI: I look _very_ different to almost all of the people on the Residents Association and it's never caused even the slightest problem, so perhaps you're just projecting non-existent prejudices on to other people?


----------



## shakespearegirl (May 18, 2012)

editor said:


> I don't believe it will ever reopen up as a pub, just the same as what's happened as Loughborough Junction because it will now be surrounded by nu-residents who will object to the noise and disturbance.
> I said that the time.



I don't think it won't re-open due to 'nu-residents' complaining. Residential property above a commercial premises is valued lower than a purely residential development and much harder to get a mortgage on.

They will rent the flats out, make the A3 unit far too expensive so no-one will rent it. After its lain empty for a few years they will convince the council to let it turn the whole building into flats and flog them at a much higher rate than they could if they were above a pub.


----------



## Rushy (May 18, 2012)

editor said:


> I don't believe it will ever reopen up as a pub, just the same as what's happened as Loughborough Junction because it will now be surrounded by nu-residents who will object to the noise and disturbance.
> I said that the time.


 
The Green Man (if that's what you are referring to) was a bit of a special case. The police felt that it had been at the centre of nefarious activity for too long and its permanent closure was supposed to diffuse that. The intro of a Skills Centre was supposed to replace it with a positive community service. It was nothing to do with noise.


----------



## editor (May 18, 2012)

Rushy said:


> The Green Man (if that's what you are referring to) was a bit of a special case. T


I was referring to the Warrior. That's never been open since the housing development around it was built and there seems no prospect of it ever opening as a bar. How many years has it been empty now?


----------



## shakespearegirl (May 18, 2012)

It closed not long after I moved to LJ in 2000


----------



## editor (May 18, 2012)

shakespearegirl said:


> It closed not long after I moved to LJ in 2000


Used to be a great pub.


----------



## Rushy (May 18, 2012)

editor said:


> I think you're reading an awful lot into a throwaway remark and I frankly wish the debate would stop focussing on me.
> 
> FYI: I look _very_ different to almost all of the people on the Residents Association and it's never caused even the slightest problem, so perhaps you're just projecting non-existent prejudices on to other people?


 
Sorry - I wrongly interpreted it as you trying to communicate your identity by unambiguously associating yourself with a general expression of prejudice against a fairly ambiguously defined group of people.  Easily done.

I won't mention it again if you don't.


----------



## editor (May 18, 2012)

Rushy said:


> Sorry - I wrongly interpreted it as you trying to communicate your identity by unambiguously associating yourself with a general expression of prejudice against a fairly ambiguously defined group of people. Easily done.
> 
> I won't mention it again if you don't.


I think you need to loosen your tie a little bit, think of the bigger picture and stop focussing on me. I'm really not that important.


----------



## Rushy (May 18, 2012)

editor said:


> I think you need to loosen your tie a little bit, think of the bigger picture and stop focussing on me. I'm really not that important.


 
I've made about 20 posts on this topic. I'm sure that if you re-read them you will be reassured that my focus is on the general hostility (in which you play an enthusiastic role) towards what Brick Box are doing.


At the end of the day you apparently unintentionally associated yourself with generalised prejudice. I politely picked you up on it. You dismissed your own comment as throwaway. I accept that you are a lovable cheeky chap who just got carried away by the enthusiasm of the crowd. There's no need to escalate by dissing me on the basis of whatever attire you seem to have pigeon-holed me into wearing. Move on!


----------



## editor (May 18, 2012)

Rushy said:


> I've made about 20 posts on this topic. I'm sure that if you re-read them you will be reassured that my focus is on the general hostility (in which you play an enthusiastic role) towards what Brick Box are doing.


My 'hostility' has consistently only amounted to a feeling that opening their venture up with an upmarket £40 dressing-up jolly for the well-heeled is a tad inappropriate, and that their 'hanging with the street drinkers' guff is cringeworthy stuff.

That's something I still feel, and it's a sentiment that was shared with the folks in my Residents Association. I do believe we're entitled to an opinion on the matter.


----------



## teuchter (May 18, 2012)

Rushy said:


> It's not quite the same. There hasn't been anything on that site for ages so it can't be strongly argued that something is being lost by the current community. It is treated as more of a blank canvas.


 
as far as I remember, the original permission to demolish the pub had a condition that the new building would retain some kind of commercial unit on the ground floor. Then, time passed, and now the council have abandoned that condition and there is now permission to have flats on all floors. So not exactly a blank canvas, more one that's been left in the rain long enough for the old picture to wash off


----------



## lang rabbie (May 18, 2012)

Rushy said:


> The plans very clearly show the retention of A3 on the ground floor.
> 
> http://planning-docs.lambeth.gov.uk/AnitePublicDocs/00329688.pdf
> 
> Based on the strength of your feelings on the matter I had naturally assumed that you had actually looked at the proposal.


 
With the "liberalisation" of planning law a couple of years ago, there is a presumption that A3 uses (restaurants and cafes - NOT pubs) can be turned into shops or professional/financial offices without needing planning permission.

Which the Table hereunder sheweth:





			
				Planning Portal said:
			
		

> *Changes of use not requiring planning permission*
> 
> In many cases involving similar types of use, a change of use of a building or land does not need planning permission. Planning permission is not needed when both the present and proposed uses fall within the same ‘class’, or if the Town and Country Planning (Use Classes) Order says that a change of class is permitted to another specified class (see table below).
> For example, a greengrocer’s shop could be changed to a shoe shop without permission as these uses fall within the same ‘class’, and a restaurant could be changed to a shop or a estate agency as the Use Class Order allows this type of change to occur without requiring planning permission.
> ...


----------



## teuchter (May 18, 2012)

editor said:


> If pig-ignorant twats want to convince themselves that I'm a yuppie, I've really no interest in bothering with such a pathetic discussion.


 
This may well be the sentiment felt by some of the Brick Box people or other recent arrivals. Or, more accurately, will be in a decade or two once they are settled and grumbling about the next generation of young turks.


----------



## soupdragon (May 18, 2012)

Rushy said:


> Celebrate and grab are your words and a little loaded for me. But to answer your question specifically:





Rushy said:


> I have no issue with the previous owner of the building selling it. It was sold _as a pub_ at a public auction without any planning permission for residential.
> I have no issue with the principle of converting the rear garages and existing upper and proposed third floors into self-contained residential although I think that the current proposal may be rejected as too intensive without enough amenity space.
> I am pleased to see it is proposed that the A3 unit (the pub itself) be retained as an A3 unit.
> I am pleased to see that the original Victorian frontage will be retained.
> ...





Ahhh Bless. Sweet to see one property developer sticking up for another property developer.


----------



## Gramsci (May 19, 2012)

Rushy said:


> I thought that you may interpret that as a slight on you, Ed, but none was intended.
> 
> It is just that you were so quick to associate yourself with a group because of their dislike of yuppies (whatever you each mean by that), that it made me wonder whether, in the same way that someone might be pidgeon-holed because of their suit or job, you might find yourself pidgeon-holed as (for argument's sake) a bit of a hippy. Some groups just aren't all that tolerant of people outwardly different to themselves, I guess, so they treat them with suspicion, assume generalisations about them and keep them at arm's length. It's convenient and safe.
> 
> ...


 
It was quite clearly a slight on Ed.


----------



## Gramsci (May 19, 2012)

editor said:


> I don't believe it will ever reopen up as a pub, just the same as what's happened as Loughborough Junction because it will now be surrounded by nu-residents who will object to the noise and disturbance.
> I said that the time.


 
Old time residents can do the same. The guy who owns the old Harmony Bar on Railton Road has been trying to redevelop the property with flats above and bar on ground floor. The nearby residents have been so happy since Harmony closed that they are objecting to the retention of A3 on the site he has put into his planning application.

What I object to in some of the recent applications Ive seen is the way small developers try to cram as many flats into a footprint of a site as possible. 

Late licensing and the inability of the Council to deal with noise problems has meant that people now do not want a bar next to them.

I know that Brixton Society think that bars/clubs should be concentrated in central Brixton and that its better in some cases to convert ground floor into flats of former pubs outside central Brixton.

I first lived in Brixton before late licensing and when the market closed early and did not open on Sundays. If central Brixton is to be mix of residential and retail something needs to be done to ensure that central Brixton residents can have a reasonable expectation of being protected from to much noise like thumping bass.


----------



## Gramsci (May 19, 2012)

shakespearegirl said:


> If my experience of Lambeth planning is anything to go by BrixBox will be there for a lot longer than 6 months.
> 
> Consultation on a development adjoining us finished over 5 months ago. We've only just had a site visit from the planning officer, and this only happened because we crashed and chased. Were told it would be at least another 6 weeks before its referred to committee


 
Also the developer/ owner might get planning permission and then sit on the property without doing anything until they get funds or decide to sell building on with full planning permission. In which case BB are ideal. Can keep them on some temporary lease/ agreement. It secures the building and is a cheaper alternative to paying for security firm.


----------



## Gramsci (May 19, 2012)

CH1 said:


> What you are getting is Lexadon preparing the way for their development and protecting the property until they are ready to do the work. You and I get a piss-elegant licensed squat to look at, at least temporarily. And the lads and lasses of "My Fathers Place" "William Hills" etc get acclimatised to the encroaching yuppies. Maybe Lexadon think a "Supper Club" is like Brixton Tube station playing classical music - makes undesirables feel really uncomfortable apparently.
> Meanwhile Lexadon/Lambeth are busy evicting the Somali/Eritrean/South Sudanese/Ugandan refugee organisations from 365 Brixton Road, and also plan to demolish the former Lambeth Register Office wedding suite so they can have a vile mini "Viaduct" development near the corner of Gresham Road/Brixton Road.
> For what appears to be a totally private (i.e. unquoted) company - c.f. Barratts- you have to admit Lexadon have amazing chutzpah.



CH1 I hope you are taking all this in:

_ "Some groups just aren't all that tolerant of people outwardly different to themselves, I guess, so they treat them with suspicion, assume generalisations about them and keep them at arm's length. It's convenient and safe."_


----------



## Gramsci (May 19, 2012)

I do notice that BB have not get back to me about there last post. Thought they might.


----------



## Gramsci (May 19, 2012)

BrickBoxer said:


> Hello everyone, I am part of the 4 person team that run The Brick Box. We're a social enterprise arts organisation formed as a community interest company.
> 
> Thought I'd just clarify a few things:
> 
> ...


 
Thanks for coming on the thread.

I would appreciate an answer to my question about Liberty Owl- #391

It would help if you said in your publicity that you would be running commercial events like on Sat to fund the other projects related to the community. As its not clear from your FB page and website that is your model. Unless I missed something.

This post that you have put up here of your aims is more understandable than some of the stuff on your website- "About us" for example.

http://www.thebrickbox.co.uk/about-us.html

Ive commented on your "about us" page in previous post. So will not repeat here. #227
I wondered what you think.


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## soupdragon (May 19, 2012)

CH1 said:


> What you are getting is Lexadon preparing the way for their development and protecting the property until they are ready to do the work. You and I get a piss-elegant licensed squat to look at, at least temporarily. And the lads and lasses of "My Fathers Place" "William Hills" etc get acclimatised to the encroaching yuppies. Maybe Lexadon think a "Supper Club" is like Brixton Tube station playing classical music - makes undesirables feel really uncomfortable apparently.
> Meanwhile Lexadon/Lambeth are busy evicting the Somali/Eritrean/South Sudanese/Ugandan refugee organisations from 365 Brixton Road, and also plan to demolish the former Lambeth Register Office wedding suite so they can have a vile mini "Viaduct" development near the corner of Gresham Road/Brixton Road.
> For what appears to be a totally private (i.e. unquoted) company - c.f. Barratts- you have to admit Lexadon have amazing chutzpah.


 
Just read this – Lexadon? is that who Brick Box have gone in with? 
Lexadon are pretty vile (allegedly). Owned by Jerry Knight who is (or was) on the Times Rich List.
Expect every trick in the book. 
Maybe Brick Box have borrowed their X.


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## Rushy (May 19, 2012)

soupdragon said:


> Ahhh Bless. Sweet to see one property developer sticking up for another property developer.


Sorry. It's still unclear what exactly you are objecting to?

The owner of the pub selling it on the open market as a pub?
The new owner proposing to convert disused garages out the back into homes?
Existing residential made self contained?
The new residential storey on the roof?
Retention of existing A3 (the pub)?
Retention of Victorian façade?
My suggestion that the colour orange is a bit...meh?

Or everything and anything in general, just because it all feels a bit out of your control and you want to get it out of your system?
There there.


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## Rushy (May 19, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> It was quite clearly a slight on Ed.


First you tell me what opinions I am entitled to hold.
Now you know better than me what my own words mean.
Just as Mr Orwell predicted.
What next? Banishment for Thoughtcrimes?


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## FridgeMagnet (May 19, 2012)

It's like something the Nazis would have done.


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## Rushy (May 19, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> Also the developer/ owner might get planning permission and then sit on the property without doing anything until they get funds or decide to sell building on with full planning permission. In which case BB are ideal. Can keep them on some temporary lease/ agreement. It secures the building and is a cheaper alternative to paying for security firm.


Some developers do do that e.g. Golfrate who bought Brady's. Lexadon doesn't have a history of doing that to my knowledge. They don't appear to be in the habit of getting pp and selling on. They build, let and hold. So it is in their interest to do it quickly. But they can't confidently build until they have pp so they have to wait.


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## editor (May 19, 2012)

Lexadon sound simply lovely people.

View attachment 19361


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## Orang Utan (May 19, 2012)

A friend of mine has an installation there tonight. Some kind of cruel Victorian menagerie. Sounds fun! I wish I could go.
Is it the opening tonight?


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## CH1 (May 19, 2012)

soupdragon said:


> Just read this – Lexadon? is that who Brick Box have gone in with?


I'd better check this again - I'll go down the library in a minute and see if the file is still there. I cannot see LEX on any of the planning documents online, but there is no description or correspondence online, only drawings.
Don't want people wading in if I got the facts wrong.
Application still "pending" according to the planning database - but I know now from the Fairholme hostel case that the database is not necessarily up to date.


----------



## editor (May 19, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> A friend of mine has an installation there tonight. Some kind of cruel Victorian menagerie. Sounds fun! I wish I could go.
> Is it the opening tonight?


It is indeed. Get your cash ready!


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## Orang Utan (May 19, 2012)

It's only a fiver innit? I won't be going but if I was in London I would be


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## FridgeMagnet (May 19, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> It's only a fiver innit? I won't be going but if I was in London I would be


Tbh I like all that faux Victorian stuff, and it'll probably be a lot of fun. I would likely go if i lived in the area. But then this isn't about the idea that it would be crap.


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## Belushi (May 19, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> A friend of mine has an installation there tonight. Some kind of cruel Victorian menagerie. Sounds fun! I wish I could go.
> Is it the opening tonight?


 
Is that A? In which case I might pop in as I'm in Brixton later.


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## Orang Utan (May 19, 2012)

A? Nah, Claire!


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## Orang Utan (May 19, 2012)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Tbh I like all that faux Victorian stuff, and it'll probably be a lot of fun. I would likely go if i lived in the area. But then this isn't about the idea that it would be crap.


What's it about then? Haven't read the thread. It's long and looks like its another dull planning thread


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## Belushi (May 19, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> A? Nah, Claire!


 
Don't thnk I've met her. I like the idea of a cruel Victorian menagerie!


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## Belushi (May 19, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> What's it about then? Haven't read the thread. It's long and looks like its another dull planning thread


 
Old school urban gentrification thread.


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## Gramsci (May 19, 2012)

Rushy said:


> First you tell me what opinions I am entitled to hold.
> Now you know better than me what my own words mean.
> Just as Mr Orwell predicted.
> What next? Banishment for Thoughtcrimes?


 
It was clearly a slight on the Ed. 

Do not see what Orwell has got to do with this.


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## Orang Utan (May 19, 2012)

Right - the whole thing is verging on the twee I suppose, with all the circus acts n that. Still, any community arts project ought to be regarded as laudable.


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## ViolentPanda (May 19, 2012)

Rushy said:


> First you tell me what opinions I am entitled to hold.
> Now you know better than me what my own words mean.
> Just as Mr Orwell predicted.
> What next? Banishment for Thoughtcrimes?


 
Well, he didn't "predict", he *speculated*, and not about someone else knowing better than you what your own words mean, but about the state appropriating and changing the meanings of words as applied to language-in-use.
Apart from that, you're quite right, I'm sure.


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## nagapie (May 19, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> A? Nah, Claire!


 
Will she be there though, hasn't she been out all night and day?


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## CH1 (May 19, 2012)

CH1 said:


> I'd better check this again


Well I went to the Tate Library and the applicant on the Angel Public House is *definitely* _*JERRY KNIGHT and LEXADON.*_
So why is this information not on the net? Look more like manipulation than incompetence to me.
Regarding sundry objections to yuppy supper clubs etc. this application is to turn the Angel Pub into flats on the first floor and above,  including building a mansard roof extension, tastefully set back. It also includes demolishing the storage buildings to the rear, and building an L shaped back addition, leaving courtyard access to Valentia Place.
Anybody thinking of objecting to supper clubs is probably wasting their time, I should think, apart from being out of time consultation-wise.
For what it's worth the Brixton Society wrote (on 22nd March) welcoming the continued use of the ground floor commercially, so as not to detract from the shopping parade, and basically accepting the inevitability of everything else - it does face the back of "The Viaduct" after all, so is hardly damaging the general aura of Valentia Place - indeed we thought it might actually improve it.
We did mention that residents of Southwyck House might be impacted by the view of the mansard roof extension, but that it probably would not be intrusive from the road, if built to plan.
Hope that clears that one up.
The planning officer to blame/complain to is Nick Linford - whoever he is. Never met him or spoken to him.

Over to you Ed.


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## Orang Utan (May 19, 2012)

nagapie said:


> Will she be there though, hasn't she been out all night and day?


She and M and J&S are going. PM me if confuzzled by initials!


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## nagapie (May 19, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> She and M and J&S are going. PM me if confuzzled by initials!


 
I got some of them. I didn't realise she was doing something, I want to go but SOMEONE isn't home yet.


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## Orang Utan (May 19, 2012)

I only found out about it yesterday. 
Is this someone still out from last night?


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## nagapie (May 19, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> I only found out about it yesterday.
> Is this someone still out from last night?


 
Yes, and they had an AMAZING night


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## soupdragon (May 19, 2012)

Rushy said:


> Sorry. It's still unclear what exactly you are objecting to?
> 
> The owner of the pub selling it on the open market as a pub?
> The new owner proposing to convert disused garages out the back into homes?
> ...


 
Thanks.
Hadn't realised that A3 meant 'working class pub that will continue to serve it's previous customers'
and I always find it soothing to be patronised by smug property developers fighting for their brethren.
Oh but hang on a moment, look:


lang rabbie said:


> With the "liberalisation" of planning law a couple of years ago, there is a presumption that A3 uses (restaurants and cafes - NOT pubs) can be turned into shops or professional/financial offices without needing planning permission.


A4 is now pubs!?! and A3 is restaurants that can be turned into shops or professional/financial offices.

You were saying?


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## editor (May 20, 2012)

For what it's worth, not one of the residents I've spoken to even knew the Angel had reopened for the £40 supper club and, I have to say, not one of them was particularly impressed with the idea when I explained it to them ("flaunting it in our faces" was one comment I heard).

I don't understand why a 'community based' organisation like Brick Box didn't at least put posters up in the window beforehand, because I imagine most of the local residents are unlikely to spend much of their time surfing Brixton Villaaage websites.


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## CH1 (May 20, 2012)

editor said:


> I don't understand why a 'community based' organisation like Brick Box didn't at least put posters up in the window beforehand, because I imagine most of the local residents are unlikely to spend much of their time surfing Brixton Village websites.


You are quite right - these people are not only "up their own ass" so to speak, but they may even be putting their "business model" at risk with their insularity. The people at the Asian grocers next to the betting shop seemed to be getting victimised by late-night shoppers recently, and had to increase security. I recall the old Prince of Wales by the Ritzy which got the occasional brick through the window - presumably because the Beenie Man types objected to its "battyism" (or maybe the security measures taken to keep them out).
If the locals who hang out on the shopping parade object the most likely thing is the occasional mugging I would have thought. That might not be so good for business, although maybe it might perk up the secondhand iPhone market!
Don't suppose Lexadon care who is operating in the property prior to the building work - so long as they are not REAL squatters!


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## Gramsci (May 20, 2012)

CH1 said:


> Well I went to the Tate Library and the applicant on the Angel Public House is *definitely* _*JERRY KNIGHT and LEXADON.*_
> So why is this information not on the net? Look more like manipulation than incompetence to me.
> Regarding sundry objections to yuppy supper clubs etc. this application is to turn the Angel Pub into flats on the first floor and above, including building a mansard roof extension, tastefully set back. It also includes demolishing the storage buildings to the rear, and building an L shaped back addition, leaving courtyard access to Valentia Place.
> Anybody thinking of objecting to supper clubs is probably wasting their time, I should think, apart from being out of time consultation-wise.
> ...


 
Excellant work CH1

To make it clear to people comments on planning application are only taken into consideration if they relate to planning regulations and guidelines. Such as a building being in a conservation area, overlooking other properties etc.

Planning is fairly limited in that case. It can be used to protect buildings and look of an area. It does not cover social or economic issues that much.

I think planning is boring to a lot of people because its limited in this way.


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## lang rabbie (May 20, 2012)

soupdragon said:


> Thanks.
> 
> A4 is now pubs!?! and A3 is restaurants that can be turned into shops or professional/financial offices.


 
Actually A4 pubs can be turned into A3 restaurants, A2 professional offices and A1 shops without planning permission as well.


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## Rushy (May 20, 2012)

CH1 said:


> Well I went to the Tate Library and the applicant on the Angel Public House is *definitely* _*JERRY KNIGHT and LEXADON.*_
> So why is this information not on the net? Look more like manipulation than incompetence to me.


Just to clarify, the online database does name the applicant as Mr Jerry Knight.


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## CH1 (May 20, 2012)

Rushy said:


> Just to clarify, the online database does name the applicant as Mr Jerry Knight.


Thank you for pointing it out. It is under details/further information
Could have saved myself a walk, then.


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## CH1 (Jun 6, 2012)

Seems the planning application for building to the rear of Angel Pub has been withdrawn. Are Jerry Knight/Lexadon waiting till after the Barratt deluge in the hope of picking up "disappointed buyers" later on? Or some other problem. I think we should be told.


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## editor (Jun 6, 2012)

There's still nothing in the blacked-out pub windows from Brick Box announcing to the local community what's going in in the building or inviting locals to get involved.


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## CH1 (Jun 6, 2012)

Just got the official letter now. I reckon it's nothing more than "withdraw one and get one free" as Tescos would say. Maybe a free one's coming on the Paulet Arms - or yet another one on rear of 365 Brixton Road?


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## teuchter (Jun 6, 2012)

Planning applications are often withdrawn and then resubmitted, if the planners ask for changes that can't really be dealt with as an amendment. Or if they deliberately ask for changes to the application just before time's up when there isn't time to make them. It's a way for the planners to buy more time without getting done for not meeting their deadline.

I'd expect another, slightly modified application to appear for the Angel fairly soon.


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## boohoo (Jun 9, 2012)

*awaits the baying mob*


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## Mrs Magpie (Jun 9, 2012)

All About Brixton? Big Subject.


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## RaverDrew (Jun 9, 2012)

looks like the baying mob didn't take long at all


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## Gramsci (Jun 9, 2012)

boohoo said:


> *awaits the baying mob*


 
Haagen Dazs?

very Nu-Brixton 

Is that a good start Boohoo

Is that your Windmill?


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## boohoo (Jun 9, 2012)

If Brick Box is run by people who were involved in Shunt, it will be arty, farty and quirky and not to everybodies taste with some hit and miss. I use to pop into Shunt regularly and witnessed some amazing ideas (the mini boating pond in the vaults), some fun stuff (roller skating/free massage -not at same time!) and the ridiculous (people throwing paint over each other). For someone who is rather tired of clubbing and doesn't want to sit and drink, Shunt was a beautiful venue and at a £5 a great evening out!

https://www.facebook.com/events/131735920287555/


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## boohoo (Jun 9, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> Haagen Dazs?
> 
> very Nu-Brixton
> 
> ...


 
Free ice cream! - Might have to find a baby sitter!  

Now the windmill would be a great space for some art!


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## editor (Jun 9, 2012)

I suspect the Brixton they're talking about won't bear much relation to the Brixton that has been lived and breathed by the community who have lived around the pub for years. They certainly didn't take the time to try and get anyone involved.


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## boohoo (Jun 9, 2012)

I was aware of this project from twitter (which I'm sure must have some Brixton users who have been around for more than a few years). I think some people just aren't good at thinking about how you attempt to reach everyone - leaflets/posters/facebook/website/mailing list. Or don't have the resource to do it.


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## editor (Jun 9, 2012)

boohoo said:


> I was aware of this project from twitter (which I'm sure must have some Brixton users who have been around for more than a few years). I think some people just aren't good at thinking about how you attempt to reach everyone - leaflets/posters/facebook/website/mailing list. Or don't have the resource to do it.


How much effort does it take to put a poster in the window? I think it's hugely unlikely that - given their past - Brick Box are particularly lacking in the necessary PR skills, if so inclined.

Truth is, I don't think anyone in the surrounding community has the slightest idea what's going on, unless they perhaps glimpsed the procession of Edwardian gentry strutting down Coldharbour Lane for the whizzo £40 supper jaunt a while back.


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## boohoo (Jun 9, 2012)

Mrs Magpie said:


> All About Brixton? Big Subject.


 
Slightly about Brixton by some arty types doesn't sound so catchy.


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## editor (Jun 9, 2012)

All this make me feel sad that the old Cooltan Arts has gone. That was a proper community art project run by locals that didn't need grants and exclusive suppers for the well heeled to do their thing.

Sigh.


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## boohoo (Jun 9, 2012)

editor said:


> How much effort does it take to put a poster in the window? I think it's hugely unlikely that - given their past - Brick Box are particularly lacking in the necessary PR skills, if so inclined.


 
 Open doors are doing the event so not down to Brick Box to promote the engagement of locals into the project. 

if I did a mural thing there, I would do 95% or promotion and engagement with the locals. Having just been knee deep in a project which should engage locals, it meets lots of difficulties - so people engaged in some things and not in others, working with other organisations- where does communication responsibilities lie, etc, etc.


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## editor (Jun 9, 2012)

boohoo said:


> Open doors are doing the event so not down to Brick Box to promote the engagement of locals into the project.


It says, "Hosted by Brick Box" on the flier and they are the people who love to go on about how they're all about community.

Plus there's loads of street drinkers around the area (on account of them taking over their old pub) and given their stated desire to hang out with them, I thought they might have been keen to let them know what's occurring.


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## boohoo (Jun 9, 2012)

editor said:


> All this make me feel sad that the old Cooltan Arts has gone. That was a proper community art project run by locals that didn't need grants and exclusive suppers for the well heeled to do their thing.
> 
> Sigh.


 
I do miss the place. However I know some of my Brixton friends(born and bred, ordinary folk) would not have liked cooltan or the crusty dreadlock look or the drug fuelled parties or the run down building. I know as I remember some of them giving me the look of what is with the multi coloured clothes and raggy hair - it's not something they saw as aspirational. 

How to serve a diverse community like Brixton is a complex issue. By putting barriers down, you stop some of the diversity happening or allowing people to experience different things. If no-one wants the Brick box events, they will fall on their face.


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## quimcunx (Jun 9, 2012)

editor said:


> All this make me feel sad that the old Cooltan Arts has gone. That was a proper community art project run by locals that didn't need grants and exclusive suppers for the well heeled to do their thing.
> 
> Sigh.


 
Never went to cooltan so much as once in the 20 years I've lived in Brixton. I had never heard of it until coming on urban.


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## quimcunx (Jun 9, 2012)

boohoo said:


> I do miss the place. However I know some of my Brixton friends(born and bred, ordinary folk) would not have liked cooltan or the crusty dreadlock look or the drug fuelled parties or the run down building. I know as I remember some of them giving me the look of what is with the multi coloured clothes and raggy hair - it's not something they saw as aspirational.
> 
> How to serve a diverse community like Brixton is a complex issue. By putting barriers down, you stop some of the diversity happening or allowing people to experience different things. If no-one wants the Brick box events, they will fall on their face.


 
I remember the first time I went to the Albert about 15 years ago.  My then boyfriend warned that I might not like it as it was full of 'crusties, you know, the dog on a string brigade'.


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## Ms T (Jun 9, 2012)

quimcunx said:


> Never went to cooltan so much as once in the 20 years I've lived in Brixton. I had never heard of it until coming on urban.


 
Me neither.


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## editor (Jun 9, 2012)

boohoo said:


> If no-one wants the Brick box events, they will fall on their face.


I'm sure there's a certain kind of folk who will simply_ lurve_ Brick Box events, but I suspect that not that many will be from the actual surrounding community.


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## Crispy (Jun 9, 2012)

My subculture is better than your subculture


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## editor (Jun 9, 2012)

Crispy said:


> My subculture is better than your subculture


Brick Box aren't a sub culture. They're a commercial enterprise, silly.


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## Mrs Magpie (Jun 9, 2012)

Cooltan wasn't my thing, stuff at the Villaage isn't either. I used to love nights at the Angel years ago (spotless loos). What is getting me going at the moment is the fear that I may have to leave. Even my local councillor has said to my face that there's too much social housing in Brixton. Seeing what is happening around me is frightening. A lot of what's being presented as the way forward for Brixton doesn't include me, or any members of my household, my neighbours.


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## quimcunx (Jun 9, 2012)

for certain values of 'like' that is....


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## quimcunx (Jun 9, 2012)

If people want to do a community project for me I want a giant playground with indoor soft play area designed for adults (children can come in on weekdays and weekend mornings I suppose.  Teenagers can have the monday - wed eves and between 4pm and 6pm weekends.    No booze allowed except in the post-play refreshment area where smoking will also be allowed inside.  There will also be a lounging in the sun when it's out area.


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## Orang Utan (Jun 9, 2012)

editor said:


> I'm sure there's a certain kind of folk who will simply_ lurve_ Brick Box events, but I suspect that not that many will be from the actual surrounding community.


I suspect most of them will be from the surrounding area. Lots of people who like that sort of thing live around there now. Haven't you noticed?


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## snowy_again (Jun 9, 2012)

editor said:


> Brick Box aren't a sub culture. They're a commercial enterprise, silly.


 
It's a Community Interest Company.


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## Gramsci (Jun 9, 2012)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Cooltan wasn't my thing, stuff at the Villaage isn't either. I used to love nights at the Angel years ago (spotless loos). What is getting me going at the moment is the fear that I may have to leave. Even my local councillor has said to my face that there's too much social housing in Brixton. Seeing what is happening around me is frightening. A lot of what's being presented as the way forward for Brixton doesn't include me, or any members of my household, my neighbours.


 
It is in the Draft SPD for the Brixton Masterplan that there needs to be a "rebalancing" of affordable and private housing as well.

I am getting concerned that you might be right Mrs Magpie.


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## Gramsci (Jun 9, 2012)

Brick Box album for there Saltoun Supper event:

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.296080590483894.68594.102357773189511&type=1


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## Gramsci (Jun 9, 2012)

boohoo said:


> I was aware of this project from twitter (which I'm sure must have some Brixton users who have been around for more than a few years). I think some people just aren't good at thinking about how you attempt to reach everyone - leaflets/posters/facebook/website/mailing list. Or don't have the resource to do it.


 
I will give them a helping hand then. Here is Open Doors webpage about new pop up exhibition about Brixton they are organising:

http://opendoorslondon.blogspot.co.uk/p/brixton.html

*EXHIBITION SW9*

Brixton is the home of our next OpenDoors pop-up exhibition.
The idea for this exhibition is to play a giant game of 'consequences'. We have asked writers/poets/londoners/SW9 residents to send in their visions of Brixton. We will then pass these snippets of lit. onto our artists and see what they come up with.
The words and the artwork will be shown together at the exhibition in July. Displayed side by side. 
All the following artists will be exhibiting their work as part of Exhibition SW9


and this:
http://opendoorslondon.blogspot.co.uk/p/about_07.html

Open Doors is a nomadic gallery that curates art exhibitions based around the postcode the gallery is in. OpenDoors was set up in June 2011 with two aims in mind: promoting artists and making more people interested in art. By curating exhibitions inspired by the area we aim to encourage more people to come in and be interested by what they see on the walls.

Running Open Doors as a postcode project has brought communities to the forefront of our minds. In London a community can mean so many different things; ideas, beliefs, routines, jobs and hobbies. The Riots highlighted that communities need to be recognised and celebrated and we aim to start that through art.


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## Gramsci (Jun 9, 2012)

quimcunx said:


> I remember the first time I went to the Albert about 15 years ago. My then boyfriend warned that I might not like it as it was full of 'crusties, you know, the dog on a string brigade'.


 
Really?

The regulars at the Railway used to say those who went to Albert were "a bit middle class". Which meant that you got up in the morning and had a wash and shave.


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## quimcunx (Jun 9, 2012)

Yes. I remember because I'd never heard the phrase before. He was also going on about Pat, the old owner.


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## boohoo (Jun 9, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> Open Doors is a nomadic gallery that curates art exhibitions based around the postcode the gallery is in. OpenDoors was set up in June 2011 with two aims in mind: promoting artists and making more people interested in art. By curating exhibitions inspired by the area we aim to encourage more people to come in and be interested by what they see on the walls.
> 
> Running Open Doors as a postcode project has brought communities to the forefront of our minds. In London a community can mean so many different things; ideas, beliefs, routines, jobs and hobbies. The Riots highlighted that communities need to be recognised and celebrated and we aim to start that through art.


 
I think their project idea is quite interesting. I was tempted to send something to them but couldn't be bothered - 

ps Gramsci, you aren't reaching those that don't do the internet!


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## Gramsci (Jun 9, 2012)

quimcunx said:


> Yes. I remember because I'd never heard the phrase before. He was also going on about Pat, the old owner.


 
She was Brixton institution. Used to keep order in there. No one messed with regulars when she was behind the bar.


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## Gramsci (Jun 9, 2012)

boohoo said:


> I think their project idea is quite interesting. I was tempted to send something to them but couldn't be bothered -
> 
> ps Gramsci, you aren't reaching those that don't do the internet!


 
I was thinking about that as someone else said that at a meeting I was at recently. On a more serious note I find it difficult to attend meetings in evening. Which means I have less influence in some of the decision making in Lambeth.

More and more people are getting access to internet. Even if it is just having a smart phone. I see people in Iceland with smartphones and schoolkids with Blackberrys ( which have come down a lot in price).

In Estonia the state built a wi fi system to cover nearly all the country that is free to use. Could be done here.


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## boohoo (Jun 9, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> I was thinking about that as someone else said that at a meeting I was at recently. On a more serious note I find it difficult to attend meetings in evening. Which means I have less influence in some of the decision making in Lambeth.
> 
> More and more people are getting access to internet. Even if it is just having a smart phone. I see people in Iceland with smartphones and schoolkids with Blackberrys ( which have come down a lot in price).


 
I was thinking the older generation who just don't do computer technology. When I went to an archives thing, i was telling a lady about a building in the area and I could email her a picture. She didn't do emails and the group didn't have a website. And I never got around to printing the image and putting it in the post to her. 

I noticed an archives project which looked very interesting but I entirely missed - found a leaflet about it in Starbucks.


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## Mrs Magpie (Jun 9, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> It is in the Draft SPD for the Brixton Masterplan that there needs to be a "rebalancing" of affordable and private housing as well.
> 
> I am getting concerned that you might be right Mrs Magpie.


I am also concerned that 'affordable' housing is anything but.


----------



## editor (Jun 10, 2012)

snowy_again said:


> It's a Community Interest Company.


What does that actually mean?  Don't they operate a regular commercial restaurant business in the Villaaage?


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## editor (Jun 10, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> We have asked writers/poets/londoners/*SW9** residents* to send in their visions of Brixton.


Where? Who?  And don't they know Brixton is also SW2?


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## CH1 (Jun 10, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> Brick Box album for there Saltoun Supper event:https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.296080590483894.68594.102357773189511&type=1


Not just twee - almost L Ron Hubbard meets Jane Austen


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## boohoo (Jun 10, 2012)

editor said:


> Where? Who?  And don't they know Brixton is also SW2?


 
I believe they might have an SW2 project on the go too.

EtA; they aren't...


ah well... are we saying they are bad for being totally misguided about what is and isn't Brixton and how you do community. Is it better to keep art and artwork about areas exclusively in gallery space?

How do you make sure you include all groups including the ones who don't want to engage with arts projects?


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## boohoo (Jun 10, 2012)

editor, why don''t you put on an old style offline in this space? poetry, stand up, various musical acts - that would be good!!


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## boohoo (Jun 10, 2012)

Mrs Magpie said:


> I am also concerned that 'affordable' housing is anything but.


 
Makes me think of the Heygate estate - I wonder how many people will be moved back into the new development (or want to move again) and how much will be new housing and what will be affordable (and affordable in that area is not affordable at all - expensive location!!)


----------



## boohoo (Jun 10, 2012)

On that note - if you have a chance, go visit Stockwell Studios today. It's quite possible the garden will be under concrete next year (and the garden is lovely)


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## editor (Jun 10, 2012)

boohoo said:


> editor, why don''t you put on an old style offline in this space? poetry, stand up, various musical acts - that would be good!!


I'd prefer to do Offlines in venues that have supported me in the past rather than assist Lexadon in 'softening' up the building ready for commercial exploitation. If it was a struggling pub - or a squatted one - I'd be far more interested. I think I might feel rather uncomfortable putting on an event in the Angel, to be honest.

I'm also not sure I'd want to associate Offline with Brick Box given their hoity toity £40 supper clubs and all that embarrassing guff about being "where the street drinkers hang out; where the bins are kept". I don't think that's really in the spirit of Offline _at all._


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## editor (Jun 10, 2012)

Liberty Owl said:


> I was down helping to paint at the Angel last weekend and if you'd dropped by you would have found a fairly accurate cross section of Brixton - with their paint rollers and bin-liners, the volunteers came in all shapes and sizes, all colours and hues, all social backgrounds and a good sprinkling of accents and varying degrees of seniority. A good reflection of the community BrickBox has built up around it.


Seeing as the building's windows have remained blacked out from the start and there's still never been any posters saying what is going on or inviting anyone to get involved, I'm not how sure you expect local residents who actually live in the area to know what's going on.

Unless they follow you on Twitter, of course, which I imagine none do, so as a local may I once again implore you to make some effort in letting the local community know what's going on (if you really do want them to get involved involved).


----------



## editor (Jun 10, 2012)

Here's what's on later this month (I looked it up in the absence of any local advertising).
It's £5 to get in at night so the street drinkers will have to stand outside.





> THE POSTCODE GALLERY: an art exhibition themed around a game of consequences. OpenDoors has collected words written by local residents about the area. The words have been passed onto artists who will be exhibiting original art directly inspired by the words.
> 
> LIVE MUSIC: During the evening there will be a host of performers to enjoy.
> 
> ...


 
Coming up the week after: "Sexy Art & Rude Food".


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## magneze (Jun 10, 2012)

Looks interesting and varied.


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## spanglechick (Jun 10, 2012)

magneze said:


> Looks interesting and varied.


I thought that. and great that it's free during the day.

shame they haven't got their posters sorted out in the windows, but if they can get the message out more effectively, it looks like lots going on there for different tastes and ages.  Quite fancy ice cream sculpting!


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## ViolentPanda (Jun 10, 2012)

snowy_again said:


> It's a Community Interest Company.


 
The problem being that the allowed remit of CICs w/r/t how much "community interest" is involved can be quite loose.


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## ViolentPanda (Jun 10, 2012)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Cooltan wasn't my thing, stuff at the Villaage isn't either. I used to love nights at the Angel years ago (spotless loos). What is getting me going at the moment is the fear that I may have to leave. Even my local councillor has said to my face that there's too much social housing in Brixton. Seeing what is happening around me is frightening. A lot of what's being presented as the way forward for Brixton doesn't include me, or any members of my household, my neighbours.


 
And of coure you can bet that what's meant by "too much social housing in Brixton" isn't that, _per se_, there's an imbalance that needs to be addressed, but that volume social housing may be too coarse for the refined palates of those the councillor would like to attract to the area. Labour councillor by any chance, Mrs M?


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## ViolentPanda (Jun 10, 2012)

magneze said:


> Looks interesting and varied.


 
I have to say that "OpenDoors has collected words written by local residents about the area. The words have been passed onto artists who will be exhibiting original art directly inspired by the words" finds me equally peeved and intrigued, if only to find out whether what they've done is as utterly patronising and disempowering as it sounds.


----------



## Gramsci (Jun 10, 2012)

boohoo said:


> Makes me think of the Heygate estate - I wonder how many people will be moved back into the new development (or want to move again) and how much will be new housing and what will be affordable (and affordable in that area is not affordable at all - expensive location!!)


 
read this a while back:

 The Heygate site will be worth a fortune when Lend Lease, Southwark's chosen developer, has cleared out the detritus of the 1970s. The 1,260 council homes will be replaced by 3,300 dwellings, mostly for private sale but with 25% set aside for "affordable" housing. When the Elephant has its new shopping centre and more user-friendly road system, this will be a highly desirable place to live. Rather too desirable, critics of the regeneration scheme argue, for the council tenants who used to live here.
Southwark accepts the regeneration project has been problematic. "It hasn't been plain sailing," says councillor Fiona Colley, cabinet member for regeneration. "There should have been new homes built for residents before they moved.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2011/mar/04/death-housing-ideal

Im afraid this is what the Council mean when they say the housing in Brixton needs rebalancing.


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## Gramsci (Jun 10, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> And of coure you can bet that what's meant by "too much social housing in Brixton" isn't that, _per se_, there's an imbalance that needs to be addressed, but that volume social housing may be too coarse for the refined palates of those the councillor would like to attract to the area. Labour councillor by any chance, Mrs M?


 
I have had the same comments. I said there is shortage of affordable housing in London. He said that more could be built in other parts of Lambeth as there was to much in Brixton. I said the Council , realistically, does not have the land to do that. No answer to that. 

I find some of my conversations with members of the Labour party slightly surreal. I really should not have to state what should be obvious to a member of the Labour party. And I try to use as reasonable language as possible.


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## Gramsci (Jun 10, 2012)

CH1 said:


> Not just twee - almost L Ron Hubbard meets Jane Austen


 
Oh CH1 that made me laugh. 

You do have a way with words.


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## ViolentPanda (Jun 10, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> I have had the same comments. I said there is shortage of affordable housing in London. He said that more could be built in other parts of Lambeth as there was to much in Brixton. I said the Council , realistically, does not have the land to do that. No answer to that.


 
Unsurprising - that they had no answer, that is.
And there isn't "too much" in Brixton by any *rational* gauge of quantity, in fact there's far less than necessary.
It's also interesting to note that a councillor would make a statement, ie ("more could be built in other parts..." that is so baldly exclusionary of the local poor. Interesting but typical of the attitudes of the gang of party lickspittles and ideologically-malformed lackwits that supposedly represent us on the council.



> I find some of my conversations with members of the Labour party slightly surreal. I really should not have to state what should be obvious to a member of the Labour party. And I try to use as reasonable language as possible.


 
it's the same Blair-era surreality (which, to be fair started during Kinnock's leadership) that caused more than quarter of a million party members (many of them old-school activists) to leave the party between '97 and '01. Accommodationism for capitalism and table scraps for the electorate, with these jokers seeing themselves as facilitators for the "money talks" generation. It may be politics, but it's not a politics I want any part of perpetuating.
Destruction, on the other hand...


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## Mrs Magpie (Jun 10, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> And of coure you can bet that what's meant by "too much social housing in Brixton" isn't that, _per se_, there's an imbalance that needs to be addressed, but that volume social housing may be too coarse for the refined palates of those the councillor would like to attract to the area. Labour councillor by any chance, Mrs M?


Donatus Anyanwu. Labour councillor for probably a decade by now.


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## ViolentPanda (Jun 10, 2012)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Donatus Anyanwu. Labour councillor for probably a decade by now.


 
Blair-era, like most of them. What gets me is the complacency and blatantness of saying such a thing, as if he knows that he/his successor will get voted back in whatever they do. It's like these no-marks don't even *try* anymore, beyond the occasional surgery.


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## magneze (Jun 10, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> I have to say that "OpenDoors has collected words written by local residents about the area. The words have been passed onto artists who will be exhibiting original art directly inspired by the words" finds me equally peeved and intrigued, if only to find out whether what they've done is as utterly patronising and disempowering as it sounds.


Only one way to find out eh?


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## boohoo (Jun 10, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> I have to say that "OpenDoors has collected words written by local residents about the area. The words have been passed onto artists who will be exhibiting original art directly inspired by the words" finds me equally peeved and intrigued, if only to find out whether what they've done is as utterly patronising and disempowering as it sounds.


 
Why is it patronising and disempowering?


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## ViolentPanda (Jun 10, 2012)

boohoo said:


> Why is it patronising and disempowering?


 
Do you mean "why does it sound patronising and disempowering?"
That is, after all, what I actually wrote, and I don't like formulating answers to things I haven't actually said. 

If that *is* what you meant, then it sounds patronising and disempowering to me because it renders the locals as passive sources of material, unable to create "original art" from their own utterances. It gives them no agency to do so, either


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## boohoo (Jun 10, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Do you mean "why does it sound patronising and disempowering?"
> That is, after all, what I actually wrote, and I don't like formulating answers to things I haven't actually said.
> 
> If that *is* what you meant, then it sounds patronising and disempowering to me because it renders the locals as passive sources of material, unable to create "original art" from their own utterances. It gives them no agency to do so, either


 
(i'm breastfeeding a baby and typing so things do not always come out right!!! )

I think the artists are local too. A further project would be to get locals to do art around the ideas of their area.


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## Mrs Magpie (Jun 10, 2012)

boohoo said:


> I think the artists are local too. A further project would be to get locals to do art around the ideas of their area.


Doing something similar but it's getting the funding. I've been plugging away for ages.


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## ViolentPanda (Jun 10, 2012)

boohoo said:


> (i'm breastfeeding a baby and typing so things do not always come out right!!! )


 
I've seen how that works, and understand (as much as we "people with penises" can w/r/t multi-tasking  ).



> I think the artists are local too. A further project would be to get locals to do art around the ideas of their area.


 
See, the bumf doesn't mention that, or that the artists are local (if indeed they are). If it had, I wouldn't have commented as I did in the first place.


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## boohoo (Jun 10, 2012)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Doing something similar but it's getting the funding. I've been plugging away for ages.


 
Have you seen this bit of funding about? (mentioned in another thread)

http://www.coldharbourcommunityfirst.org.uk/?page_id=35&fb_source=message


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## Mrs Magpie (Jun 10, 2012)

Thanks boohoo, I've just asked my grant application co-wotsit if we've got that one down (we are just working our way through a list).


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## boohoo (Jun 10, 2012)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Thanks boohoo, I've just asked my grant application co-wotsit if we've got that one down (we are just working our way through a list).


 
I think applications for it are due this week! I spotted it on twitter.


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## CH1 (Jun 10, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> "more could be built in other parts..."


When I was on the council 1994-8 I represented Thornton Ward (the posh old two seater Thornton Ward). Those in need of council housing always spurned being rehoused in Brixton - wanted Poynders Gardens, Weir Estate, Oaklands Estate, but definitely NOT Brixton. Too rough, they said.
Donatus lives in Streatham South - and probably also thinks Brixton is too rough, despite having had a sinecure representing us for the last 10 years.
I shall never forget when I asked him (some years later - after I had ceased to be a (LD) councillor) - "Donatus, why is the whole of Coldharbour Lane being re-tarmacked, but the pavement, which hasn't been done for 20 years is being left in a dangerous condition?"
He replied tartly: "Because the Liberals have spent all the money in Streatham".

A: As a resident of Streaham himself I guess he was being deliberately provocative, as Nigerians quite often are.
B: The correct answer apparently was - because TFL paid for the tarmacking, but Lambeth would have had to pay for the pavement.
Why couldn't he just have said B instead of being such an A**hole"?

P.S. Donatus was Executive Member for Housing 2002-2004 (maybe not all the time) and having cocked that up moved on to Exec Member for Social Services - where he implemented big cuts particularly on the disability sector-feat Mental Health+Learning Difficulties.

_Aside: I was being driven to Enugu Airport in 2007 when I saw a classic example of what we in Lambeth call "Mental Health". A large built young man was running towards us on the motorway stark naked. My host - currently an orthopaedic surgeon in Warwick - asked "I bet you've not seen one as big as that before?" referring to the unfortunate man's privates. Such is compassion for the disabled and afflicted in Africa. This attitude DOES also apply to Ghana where I have visited about 12 times - before someone picks me up for generalised racism!_ It's cultural.

BTW - in my experience the difference between Nigeria & Ghana is that Ghanaians have a high degree of empathy. "Sad, pathetic - nobody does anything. Let us pray to God etc."
Nigerians on the other hand take a more robust Victorian values approach - "These are useless people - indigent poor and criminals. Their family has rejected them!" That is assuming they have not become the playthings of Pentecostal Pastors accusing them of being witches, and getting them stoned (literally - not with herbal remedies) in the interests of "casting out demons".

Talking of which I see the Celestial Church of Christ are now ensconced in the Karibu Centre on Sunday afternoons. Took a peep at the altar through the door yesterday. They had an impressive array of altar candles (as prescribed in Exod.25:31-37; Heb.9:2 Rev. 1:12; 4:5 apparently). Looked a bit like the voodoo altars in the Horniman to me! Creepy huh?


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## ViolentPanda (Jun 11, 2012)

CH1 said:


> When I was on the council 1994-8 I represented Thornton Ward (the posh old two seater Thornton Ward). Those in need of council housing always spurned being rehoused in Brixton - wanted Poynders Gardens, Weir Estate, Oaklands Estate, but definitely NOT Brixton. Too rough, they said.


 
I knew a couple who lived on Thornton Gardens, and they were the same. 


> Donatus lives in Streatham South - and probably also thinks Brixton is too rough, despite having had a sinecure representing us for the last 10 years.
> I shall never forget when I asked him (some years later - after I had ceased to be a (LD) councillor) - "Donatus, why is the whole of Coldharbour Lane being re-tarmacked, but the pavement, which hasn't been done for 20 years is being left in a dangerous condition?"
> He replied tartly: "Because the Liberals have spent all the money in Streatham".
> 
> ...


 
The simple answer being "it's so much easier to make everything about someone else's cock-ups, rather than your own inadequacies", and that's what a "nu Labour"-influenced Labour administration in Lambeth is: A machine or mill for passing off responsibility and/or stealing credit. Mr. Anyanwu is merely acting in his own best interests. Afterall, today Chuka Ummanna, tomorrow, who knows?



> P.S. Donatus was Executive Member for Housing 2002-2004 (maybe not all the time) and having cocked that up moved on to Exec Member for Social Services - where he implemented big cuts particularly on the disability sector-feat Mental Health+Learning Difficulties.
> 
> _Aside: I was being driven to Enugu Airport in 2007 when I saw a classic example of what we in Lambeth call "Mental Health". A large built young man was running towards us on the motorway stark naked. My host - currently an orthopaedic surgeon in Warwick - asked "I bet you've not seen one as big as that before?" referring to the unfortunate man's privates. Such is compassion for the disabled and afflicted in Africa. This attitude DOES also apply to Ghana where I have visited about 12 times - before someone picks me up for generalised racism!_ It's cultural.
> 
> ...


 
Not so much creepy, as informative, as far as I'm concerned. I've always enjoyed the irony of the more demonstrative church sects drawing a lot of their imagery and rhetorical style from the same sources as some of the religious practices they'd love to ban.


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## snowy_again (Jun 11, 2012)

editor said:


> What does that actually mean? Don't they operate a regular commercial restaurant business in the Villaaage?


 
In the time you spent typing that you could have easily found out.


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## editor (Jun 11, 2012)

snowy_again said:


> In the time you spent typing that you could have easily found out.


In the time it took to type that out, you could have shared the information with everyone here - that's kind of how threads on bulletin boards work. 

I've now looked it up wikipediaand got this biz-speak.





> Community Interest Company (CIC) is a business with primarily social objectives whose surpluses are principally reinvested for that purpose in the business or in the community, rather than being driven by the need to maximise profit for shareholders and owners. CICs tackle a wide range of social and environmental issues and operate in all parts of the economy. By using business solutions to achieve public good, it is believed that social enterprises have a distinct and valuable role to play in helping create a strong, sustainable and socially inclusive economy.


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## snowy_again (Jun 11, 2012)

Indeed I could, but sometimes it might be pleasant for you to climb out of your entrenched position.

"_a business with primarily social objectives whose surpluses are principally reinvested for that purpose in the business or in the community,"_

This tells you exactly what you needed to know when you made a statement about them being something along the lines of a profit making organisation in 'the village'. All of which you seem to completely hate as they don't address your personal view as to what should go on in there...  

Their legal status has been raised and clarified before in this thread.


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## CH1 (Jun 11, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Afterall, today Chuka Ummanna, tomorrow, who knows?


Can't let you cast aspersions on Chuka (not that I would vote for him, but..)
1. Donatus is an Igbo and a Nigerian-trained Roman Catholic. Mindset v. illiberal - no birth control, abortion, gays etc. and I've already explained about the disabled bit.  You couldn't really think of a worse candidate to be in charge of Social Services cuts!
2. Chuka hails from the Church of England - St Leonards Parish where they have a nice lady vicar. Nigerian brought-up Anglicans would never countenance that!  Chuka may have an Igbo father or grandfather, but Chuka himself is living in 21st century Britain. And he's learning on the job. He came out with a prepared speech the other day in "Business Questions" at HP Sauce and they slapped him down good and proper. He will learn that speaking extempore is his greatest strength.  He may be New Labour - but his heart is in the right place, IMHO.


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## ViolentPanda (Jun 11, 2012)

CH1 said:


> Can't let you cast aspersions on Chuka (not that I would vote for him, but..)
> 1. Donatus is an Igbo and a Nigerian-trained Roman Catholic. Mindset v. illiberal - no birth control, abortion, gays etc. and I've already explained about the disabled bit. You couldn't really think of a worse candidate to be in charge of Social Services cuts!
> 2. Chuka hails from the Church of England - St Leonards Parish where they have a nice lady vicar. Nigerian brought-up Anglicans would never countenance that! Chuka may have an Igbo father or grandfather, but Chuka himself is living in 21st century Britain. And he's learning on the job. He came out with a prepared speech the other day in "Business Questions" at HP Sauce and they slapped him down good and proper. He will learn that speaking extempore is his greatest strength. He may be New Labour - but his heart is in the right place, IMHO.


 
My point was and is that I'm sure the noble Donatus is ambitious, and sees that where Chuka has trodden, he, an upright fellow with G-d on his side, can follow. No aspersions cast or intended to be cast on Streatham's MP.


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## soupdragon (Jun 16, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> It is in the Draft SPD for the Brixton Masterplan that there needs to be a "rebalancing" of affordable and private housing as well.
> 
> I am getting concerned that you might be right Mrs Magpie.


 
"The loss of social-rented homes in regeneration or redevelopment schemes can be significant and tends to be justified by claims of the development of ‘mixed and balanced communities’. For example, 1,900 homes of the Ferrier Estate in Greenwich are to be demolished and replaced by 4,000 new homes. Only 1,480 of the new homes are to be affordable and only half of the affordable ones are to be social-rented – resulting in a loss of 1,160 social-rented homes."

Worth a read: http://www.londontenants.org/publications/other/theafordablehousingconf.pdf


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## Gramsci (Jun 17, 2012)

soupdragon said:


> "The loss of social-rented homes in regeneration or redevelopment schemes can be significant and tends to be justified by claims of the development of ‘mixed and balanced communities’. For example, 1,900 homes of the Ferrier Estate in Greenwich are to be demolished and replaced by 4,000 new homes. Only 1,480 of the new homes are to be affordable and only half of the affordable ones are to be social-rented – resulting in a loss of 1,160 social-rented homes."
> 
> Worth a read: http://www.londontenants.org/publications/other/theafordablehousingconf.pdf


 
On a smaller scale this is what happened on the Guinness Trust Estate.


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## lighterthief (Jun 17, 2012)

soupdragon said:


> "The loss of social-rented homes in regeneration or redevelopment schemes can be significant and tends to be justified by claims of the development of ‘mixed and balanced communities’. For example, 1,900 homes of the Ferrier Estate in Greenwich are to be demolished and replaced by 4,000 new homes. Only 1,480 of the new homes are to be affordable and only half of the affordable ones are to be social-rented – resulting in a loss of 1,160 social-rented homes."
> 
> Worth a read: http://www.londontenants.org/publications/other/theafordablehousingconf.pdf


What happens to tenants who are decanted when their flat was demolished if there isn't enough new housing for them?  Serious question.


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## DJWrongspeed (Jun 17, 2012)

What is this place, can I pop by and have a drink or is it only open for certain exhibitions and events?  Can someone clarify, can't work out from the website.


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## Gramsci (Jun 17, 2012)

lighterthief said:


> What happens to tenants who are decanted when their flat was demolished if there isn't enough new housing for them? Serious question.


 
They get rehoused within the existing stock. This means end result is that the Council has less overall social housing in long term.

In the case of Guiness Trust for example GT let out flats to people on insecure tenancies. Which means they have, in GTs opinion, no right to rehousing.

It is usually done as gradual process of persuading people to leave. Social housing is usually let on basis that you have right to housing but not right to stay in building you are in.


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## editor (Jun 17, 2012)

DJWrongspeed said:


> What is this place, can I pop by and have a drink or is it only open for certain exhibitions and events? Can someone clarify, can't work out from the website.


It won't be anything like a pub, more's the pity, so you won't be able to pop in for a drink any night of the week and chat to locals.

Judging by the two events thus far, it will be £5 to get in for an evening event, but I don't know much else because they don't seem particularly interested in informing local residents about what their plans are.


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## ViolentPanda (Jun 17, 2012)

soupdragon said:


> "The loss of social-rented homes in regeneration or redevelopment schemes can be significant and tends to be justified by claims of the development of ‘mixed and balanced communities’. For example, 1,900 homes of the Ferrier Estate in Greenwich are to be demolished and replaced by 4,000 new homes. Only 1,480 of the new homes are to be affordable and only half of the affordable ones are to be social-rented – resulting in a loss of 1,160 social-rented homes."
> 
> Worth a read: http://www.londontenants.org/publications/other/theafordablehousingconf.pdf


 
As usual, the reasons for social housing sometimes not having a "mixed and balanced community" isn't elucidated by those politicians supporting and/or driving these developments: That party policy and politics themselves caused the residualisation of social housing *from* "mixed and balanced communities" to the current less-than-perfect mix.


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## ViolentPanda (Jun 17, 2012)

lighterthief said:


> What happens to tenants who are decanted when their flat was demolished if there isn't enough new housing for them? Serious question.


 
The private rental sector accommodates them.

Of course, that's not *really* the full story, because the tension between demand for housing and availability of housing in many parts of London (and many other areas too) is such that demand drives prices up, and with 85%+ of Housing Benefit claims being made by people in work, and those sums capped, people decanted from social housing will find themselves, more and more, unable to meet market rental prices even *with* Housing Benefit contributing toward the cost.


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## twistedAM (Jun 17, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> T and with 85%+ of Housing Benefit claims being made by people in work.


 
Shit. That's a very worrying stat.


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## ViolentPanda (Jun 17, 2012)

twistedAM said:


> Shit. That's a very worrying stat.


 
And it's not widely-known, because it's not in the interests of our glorious leaders and their friends for people to know that HB claimants aren't "scroungers", but are mostly working claimants who claim purely because their wages don't begin to meet their living costs.


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## twistedAM (Jun 17, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> And it's not widely-known, because it's not in the interests of our glorious leaders and their friends for people to know that HB claimants aren't "scroungers", but are mostly working claimants who claim purely because their wages don't begin to meet their living costs.


 
Too right. I take it the figure is higher in London than the rest of the country.


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## ViolentPanda (Jun 17, 2012)

twistedAM said:


> Too right. I take it the figure is higher in London than the rest of the country.


 
Not massively so. Basically anywhere there's a surplus of demand over supply, so throughout the UK, but especially bad in the south-west of England, from what I can make out. The lowest average wages allied to some of the highest rental prices this side of Canary Wharf means that poor south-westerners are probably claiming at as high a rate, or perhaps even higher.


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## editor (Jun 17, 2012)

Seems pertinent to this thread.


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## leanderman (Jun 17, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Not massively so. Basically anywhere there's a surplus of demand over supply, so throughout the UK, but especially bad in the south-west of England, from what I can make out. The lowest average wages allied to some of the highest rental prices this side of Canary Wharf means that poor south-westerners are probably claiming at as high a rate, or perhaps even higher.





twistedAM said:


> Shit. That's a very worrying stat.


 
And that housing benefit is making landlords very rich indeed, especially with interest rates near zero.


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## ViolentPanda (Jun 17, 2012)

editor said:


> Seems pertinent to this thread.


 
Saw a few of these (written in German, obviously!) in Berlin last year, mostly in Mitte.


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## ViolentPanda (Jun 17, 2012)

leanderman said:


> And that housing benefit is making landlords very rich indeed, especially with interest rates near zero.


 
Yup.
One of these days I'm going to find a couple of weeks to combing the Commons register of members' interests and attempting to establish how many of our supposed representatives are landlords themselves.
Besides the Chancellor of the Exchequer, obviously.


----------



## leanderman (Jun 17, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Yup.
> One of these days I'm going to find a couple of weeks to combing the Commons register of members' interests and attempting to establish how many of our supposed representatives are landlords themselves.
> Besides the Chancellor of the Exchequer, obviously.


 
Yes. exactly. It's a silent conspiracy.

But it's not just housing benefit that helps landlords. It's a tax system that allows them to dodge income tax or capital gains tax.

Their rewards make a mockery of those who have saved, or invested in a pension.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 17, 2012)

leanderman said:


> Yes. exactly. It's a silent conspiracy.
> 
> But it's not just housing benefit that helps landlords. It's a tax system that allows them to dodge income tax or capital gains tax.


 
Housing Benefit has been a *big* part of it, though, at least for the "slumlord" type of landlord with a chain of HMOs, for a very long time. Now, with BTL, it's possibly not as prevalent as it once was overall, but it still dominates in some locales.
As for the tax issues, yes, landlordism is rife with favourable treatment, from the "rent a room" scheme, right through to what I suppose we should call "property magnates", there's something for everyone, bar the tenants.



> Their rewards make a mockery of those who have saved, or invested in a pension.


 
Their rewards are, *they* believe, commensurate with their position as "entrepreneurs" rather than modern-day Rachmanns and, of course, far better-protected tha anything as quotidian as savings or a pension scheme.


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Jun 17, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> As for the tax issues, yes, landlordism is rife with favourable treatment, from the "rent a room" scheme


I'm ignorant about this...educate me


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 17, 2012)

Mrs Magpie said:


> I'm ignorant about this...educate me


 
 

It's a government scheme that allows you to receive up to about £4,000 a year in rental income from renting out a room in your residence (whether you own or rent the property yourself).

Link to the relevant directgov page.


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Jun 17, 2012)

I'm in the wrong game


----------



## leanderman (Jun 17, 2012)

Mrs Magpie said:


> I'm in the wrong game


 
Exactly. Another dodge is to shift a domestic mortgage on to a buy-to-let mortgage to avoid paying any income tax.

Plus, even the dimmest accountant can reduce a capital gains tax bill to pennies.


----------



## Dan U (Jun 20, 2012)

Just watching BBC London news, i am fairly sure i just saw Prince Charles with Brick Box at this place.

Should cheer some of you up no end!

should be on iplayer later

all i could find with a quick google

http://www.google.com/hostednews/uk...qX-nH2Fe-7CIl7Mng?docId=N0394771340183960276A


----------



## Maggot (Jun 20, 2012)

Dan U said:


> Just watching BBC London news, i am fairly sure i just saw Prince Charles with Brick Box at this place.
> 
> Should cheer some of you up no end!
> 
> ...


I saw it too.  The report stated that Brick Box are doing some good work. 

He also met Adam, who many of us know from round Brixton.


----------



## RaverDrew (Jun 20, 2012)

Maggot said:


> I saw it too. The report stated that Brick Box are doing some good work.
> 
> He also met Adam, who many of us know from round Brixton.


 
Skids ?


----------



## CH1 (Jun 20, 2012)

Dan U said:


> Just watching BBC London news, i am fairly sure i just saw Prince Charles with Brick Box at this place.
> Should cheer some of you up no end!
> should be on iplayer later
> all i could find with a quick google
> http://www.google.com/hostednews/uk...qX-nH2Fe-7CIl7Mng?docId=N0394771340183960276A


Someone should send him the photos on their website - and my one from "Goodbye to Uncle Tom"
That might make him sit up and think.
He certainly does NOT have the local knowledge to invest in Brixton.
The Railway Hotel thingy was a disaster. £250,000 down the drain I heard. Is that an exageration?
The only time I saw him was when he re-opened Brixton Marks after an upgrade.
He should stick to M&S. At least you know what you're getting into.
AND M&S GIVE donations to community work - not leach it out into consultancies!
This is sending him way down in my estimation - I thought he just talked to plants.
Stick to the dodgy biscuits and jam mate!


----------



## CH1 (Jun 20, 2012)

There were three police officers outside the back entrance @ 9.40 am (I went past to get the bus to the Dalai Lama thing). There were people inside the bar. No sign of breaking and entering though.


----------



## Maggot (Jun 20, 2012)

RaverDrew said:


> Skids ?


I believe so.


----------



## DietCokeGirl (Jun 20, 2012)

I would pay good money to see footage of the moment Prince Charles got to meet the esteemed Mr. Skidders.


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## Badgers (Jun 20, 2012)

I was followed on twitterarti by them.


----------



## editor (Jun 21, 2012)

I wish the old owners of the Angel had been able to connect to these juicy grants.


----------



## CH1 (Jun 21, 2012)

editor said:


> I wish the old owners of the Angel had been able to connect to these juicy grants.


Unfortunately Ricky spent too much time in the betting shop to care.
The old South London Hi-Fi shop was also run by him. Got some good Hi-Fi stuff in there in the 1990s.
Their engineer, Alf, took their shop on Brixton Hill over. Good for spares. I see even that has changed hands now.
Plus ça change.


----------



## Kanda (Jun 21, 2012)

CH1 said:


> Unfortunately Ricky spent too much time in the betting shop to care.
> The old South London Hi-Fi shop was also run by him. Got some good Hi-Fi stuff in there in the 1990s.
> Their engineer, Alf, took their shop on Brixton Hill over. Good for spares. I see even that has changed hands now.
> Plus ça change.


 
Alfs store has moved to Streatham.


----------



## CH1 (Jun 21, 2012)

Kanda said:


> Alfs store has moved to Streatham.


Perhaps he will get me a new rubber band for my Thorens 126 turntable then.
And some filament lamps. Can't see what speed it's supposed to be going at - and it takes about 2 minutes to get to full speed anyway. But it's worth it to hear some non-digitised sound for a change!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 21, 2012)

CH1 said:


> Perhaps he will get me a new rubber band for my Thorens 126 turntable then.
> And some filament lamps. Can't see what speed it's supposed to be going at - and it takes about 2 minutes to get to full speed anyway. But it's worth it to hear some non-digitised sound for a change!


 
It's not a "rubber band", you bloody Philistine, it's a "drive belt"! .
BTW, belt for a TD-126 is anything between £10-35, depending on where you look, and whether you want a Thorens original, or a "white box" special.


----------



## Gramsci (Jun 21, 2012)

Dan U said:


> Just watching BBC London news, i am fairly sure i just saw Prince Charles with Brick Box at this place.
> 
> Should cheer some of you up no end!
> 
> ...


 
So the idea is to put "high flying" executives seconded from big companies into our neighbourhoods. How patronising.


----------



## Brixton Hatter (Jun 21, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> So the idea is to put "high flying" executives seconded from big companies into our neighbourhoods. How patronising.


Yeah....to help us in the community "connect with local firms", something we already do.


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## CH1 (Jun 21, 2012)

I want the £10 one


ViolentPanda said:


> It's not a "rubber band", you bloody Philistine, it's a "drive belt"! .
> BTW, belt for a TD-126 is anything between £10-35, depending on where you look, and whether you want a Thorens original, or a "white box" special.


Where can I get the £10 one from?
And the lamps?
Thanks for the info - I've been putting this moment off for about 25 years!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 21, 2012)

CH1 said:


> I want the £10 one
> 
> Where can I get the £10 one from?
> And the lamps?
> Thanks for the info - I've been putting this moment off for about 25 years!


 
It took me until my Dual was playing 45s at about 38rpm to change mine.
Thorens turntable drive belt for a Thorens TD-126 available on eBay from Malvern Audio (a good company. I've used them for several years).

Your lamps are more problematic, as custom parts seem to be only available from one supplier in Europe, and he's quite expensive.


----------



## CH1 (Jun 21, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> It took me until my Dual was playing 45s at about 38rpm to change mine.
> Thorens turntable drive belt for a Thorens TD-126 available on eBay from Malvern Audio (a good company. I've used them for several years).
> 
> Your lamps are more problematic, as custom parts seem to be only available from one supplier in Europe, and he's quite expensive.


I see that - thanks. The lamps used to be standard RS components types. Maybe I should search Maplin?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 21, 2012)

CH1 said:


> I see that - thanks. The lamps used to be standard RS components types. Maybe I should search Maplin?


 
Maplin or RS Components themselves (Farnell have a minimum order size of £20 which is an utter bastard if you're only going to sspend a couple of quid).


----------



## editor (Jun 22, 2012)

Back on topic, turns out some friends of mine went to the to the Edwardian fop's jaunt at the Brick Box. I don't think they'll be back.


----------



## CH1 (Jun 22, 2012)

Prince Charles and the Angel pub Wednesday 20th June 2012

here is the link to the BBC news report of Prices Charles' visit to the Angel
More on this issue from the TalkTalk website
ITN report (on Youtube)

I know I'm getting on in years and have not got long to go.....
BUT who ARE these people????
Local people being helped by a £5.4 million pound Big Lottery Grant - I ask you!
I bet Prince Charles didn't venture 10 feet east of his new Eden to give counsel to the Alcoholics (wrong type of alcoholics!)


----------



## CH1 (Jun 22, 2012)

Celebration of the Ethnic Cleansing of the Angel
Anyone fancy booking a screen at the Ritzy for a Gala Showing of Addio Zio Tom (Italian with English subtitles)?
I can provide the DVD


----------



## clandestino (Jun 22, 2012)

Not sure if this has been posted already, but this is happening at the Angel this weekend:

Exhibition SW9 is an arts show all about Brixton hosted by The Brick Box and OpenDoors London. During the weekend ExhibItion SW9 will be exploring and celebrating Brixton and its community through art. Events include:

THE POSTCODE GALLERY: an art exhibition themed around a game of consequences. OpenDoors has collected words written by local residents about the area. The words have been passed onto artists who will be exhibiting original art directly inspired by the words. 

LIVE MUSIC: During the evening there will be a host of performers to enjoy.

ICE CREAM SCULPTING: Artist Sibylla McGrigor will be running an ice cream art installation with the help of Haagen Dazs. FREE ice cream for sculptors!

FLAG MAKING: There will be a workshop aimed at designing a Brixton flag 

SPOKEN WORD: During Saturday actors will recite the poems and words that form the backbone of The Postcode Gallery

CUNT CRAFTS: The ladies behind the hugely successful Cunt Crafts are coming to London. Bring any old bras, underwear, lingerie and whatevers.

WIGWAM DECORATING: There will be canvases built into wigwams that need to be decorated throughout the exhibition.

VEGETABLE STAMPS: Vegetables from the market will be primed and prepped to make wonderful vegetable stamps to decorate cards and books

FOOD: They will be food and refreshments for sale throughout the weekend to keep creative noses keen

ALSO there will be art materials to pick up and play with. There will be a giant game of consequences played throughout the night, live music, live art, face painting and a fully licensed bar!

Many thanks to The Brick Box for making this whole event possible

OPENING TIMES:
Friday 22nd 11am - 5pm and 8pm - 2am (£5 entry for the night)
Saturday 23rd 11am - 5pm and 8pm - 2am (£5 entry for the night)


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## clandestino (Jun 22, 2012)

So today's thing opens in half an hour if anyone wants to go...


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## Badgers (Jun 22, 2012)

ianw said:
			
		

> So today's thing opens in half an hour if anyone wants to go...



Nah


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## gabi (Jun 22, 2012)

CH1 said:


> Prince Charles and the Angel pub Wednesday 20th June 2012
> 
> here is the link to the BBC news report of Prices Charles' visit to the Angel
> More on this issue from the TalkTalk website
> ...


 
Jesus that's fucked


----------



## snowy_again (Jun 22, 2012)

BIC have got a track record of charitable do-goodery though. And with funding being massively cut from the sector (from LA, Gov and philanthropic giving) people are turning to the private sector (and to some extent social enterprise) as the answer. Not quite realising that the recession has hit private business too, so all they really have to offer is skills / management / capacity training.

£4.8m is a whopper of a grant though. No surprise given the new Chair of the BLF is an ex-Tory MP.


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## RaverDrew (Jun 22, 2012)

CH1 said:


> here is the link to the BBC news report of Prices Charles' visit to the Angel


 
SKIDS !!!


----------



## boohoo (Jun 22, 2012)

Maggot said:


> He also met Adam, who many of us know from round Brixton.


 
I wonder if that was why he was getting angry at the photocopier in Brixton Library the day before this!


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 22, 2012)

Who is Skids?


----------



## boohoo (Jun 22, 2012)

5 million is a huge amount of money!

*falls off chair*

I could all of London's mural repaired for a small fraction of that money.


----------



## Crispy (Jun 22, 2012)

Its £5m to the Business Connectors programme, not to Brick Box/The Angel.


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## snowy_again (Jun 22, 2012)

More details (it's England wide, not just Brick Box types) and the specific Lambeth person:

http://www.bitc.org.uk/business_connectors/profiles.html#london_lambeth_will_popham

He twits here: http://twitter.com/#!/willpopham 

and an exploration as to how social finance sits in the current world of funding: 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sustainable-business/social-entrepreneurs-corporates-finance-collaboration

It's as painfully trendy as Granville Arcade at the moment, but won't really have any impact on the majority of the intended beneficiaries (it still doesn't address the problem that there's a funding shortage, it just seems to think that a new legal structure will allow new money to be magicked out of the air)


----------



## Gramsci (Jun 22, 2012)

snowy_again said:


> More details (it's England wide, not just Brick Box types) and the specific Lambeth person:
> 
> 
> quote]
> ...


----------



## snowy_again (Jun 22, 2012)

Isn't that what part of Corporate Social Responsibility is anyway? It's the cuddly side to private business. Some do it for truly philanthropic purposes and others to wash their image. 

The charity / third sector is always being hectored to be 'more professional' whatever that means. Some of it is self evident - e.g. better financial management and income forecasting, but taking a more business approach can mean that they might no longer be providing the services or support their 'customer'* wants, but is cheapest. 

* to use a business term


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## Gramsci (Jun 22, 2012)

CSR is another PR exercise for business. Never means much in practise.

After reading the article its more than getting the voluntary sector to be more efficient. Its saying that profit driven business is best placed to help areas.

I wish business would stick to business. This is ideological. If they want to do anything they can donote money to local causes.

Sorry about post 650 seem to have got the quotation marks mixed up. Have to sort it out later at home.


----------



## CH1 (Jun 22, 2012)

CH1 said:


> I know I'm getting on in years and have not got long to go.....
> BUT who ARE these people????
> Local people being helped by a £5.4 million pound Big Lottery Grant - I ask you!
> I bet Prince Charles didn't venture 10 feet east of his new Eden to give counsel to the Alcoholics (wrong type of alcoholics!)


I'm suspending judgement till I've seen what it's all about.
I shall be bgoing to Lidl early tomorrow @ 8am.
Then it's "Fasten yr safety belts: you're in for a bumpy ride!"
Channelling Bette Davis (in her prime)
Jean Brodie eat yr heart out!!!


----------



## editor (Jun 22, 2012)

So they took down all the blacked out windows for His Royal Highness and now they've put them all back up again.


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## CH1 (Jun 22, 2012)

editor said:


> So they took down all the blacked out windows for His Royal Highness and now they've put them all back up again.


Do you think George Walters tapping on the window was a TV a stunt then?
Nothing would surprise me in this day of Big Brother and Pink Pussycat Trotskyite politicians licking up the cream!


----------



## CH1 (Jun 22, 2012)

CH1 said:


> Do you think George Walters tapping on the window was a TV a stunt then?
> Nothing would surprise me in this day of Big Brother and Pink Pussycat Trotskyite politicians licking up the cream!


I just popped in en route to the Post Office. Besuited Asian guy on the gate (that's where the entrance is)
Very polite - in the manner of those phone calls "We've received information from Microsoft's technical department that your computer is running slow..... please give us yr credit card number and the number on the back etc etc"
He invited me to come back later - I explained that I was in an austerity situation courtesy of IDS, and would come back tomorrow.
Not many exhibitors there. No sign of the Eritrean Coffee for example.
No blacks (as far as I could see).
Looked for all the world like a village fête in Stowmarket as sponsored by John Peel (whose funeral I attended in Bury St Edmunds Cathedral).


----------



## Maggot (Jun 22, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> Who is Skids?


He's a Brixton character.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 22, 2012)

I gathered that. Which one?


----------



## CH1 (Jun 22, 2012)

snowy_again said:


> It's as painfully trendy as Granville Arcade at the moment, but won't really have any impact on the majority of the intended beneficiaries (it still doesn't address the problem that there's a funding shortage, it just seems to think that a new legal structure will allow new money to be magicked out of the air)


 
Talking of trendy me and Mrs Magpie had a chin-wag this morning:
Q.  Why is Brixton so EDGY
A.  All the bwankers are on PROZAC!


----------



## CH1 (Jun 22, 2012)

@Saltoun supper club - pretentious - moi??
Try this for a scrumtious treat (Ingredients from Lidl - cost to make - 30p)
*Pomme à Merkle*
Take ONE rotten Braeburn apple lovingly and organically grown in the Po valley region of Italy
Roast in the microwave for 90 seconds @650 w (or until fully cooked)
Garnish with fully matured Greek natural yoghurt made from pure milk hand milked from herds grazed in the Bavarian Alps

Mmmm delicious. Maybe I should take a stall at the BirkWorks Saturnalia Fest this weekend
Must be worth at LEAST £7 to a genuine JP Morganite executive (on bonus)

Maybe now UBS rogue trader Kweku Adoboli has been tagged and released on bail I should invite him to the frolics. At least then they would be able to boast one black customer (albeit in serious negative equity)!


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## quimcunx (Jun 23, 2012)

editor said:


> So they took down all the blacked out windows for His Royal Highness and now they've put them all back up again.


 
There is an exhibition on. There would not be enough room to exhibit everything if the windows were not put into use as walls. 




CH1 said:


> No blacks (as far as I could see).


 
Do we say blacks in this country?  I thought that was a South Africa thing. 

I went today as my coffee companion (we went to cafe sitifis) was going.  We went when it was shut so only people connected in whatever way were there so can't judge how busy it was when open.  Indoors was the brixton words inspired art. As with most exhibitions there were a couple of pieces I liked and the rest I found less appealing. In one room a couple of kids were drawing. Outside there was an eritrean style round brick building which today was a children's bar selling lemonade.  The woman who made the Eritrean food yesterday or today was there with her young son. There was a space for sculpting icecream and a big cut out giraffe on the wall.  There were 3 stable like outbuildings. one had a couple of kids in there making pictures from vegetable stamps made from veg bought from the market.  In another veggie food was being prepared for tonight. 

Seemed like a nice place to take your kids or sit and chill for an hour if you're not wanting a beer garden.  Some people prefer non-pubs for hanging out in for a change or generally.

I didn't check the toilets, sorry MrsM.


----------



## editor (Jun 23, 2012)

quimcunx said:


> There is an exhibition on. There would not be enough room to exhibit everything if the windows were not put into use as walls.


That really is a piss poor excuse you've just dreamt up on their behalf.

Unless you're arguing that they hid half the artwork away when 'is Royal 'Ighness was in the house.


----------



## quimcunx (Jun 23, 2012)

editor said:


> That really is a piss poor excuse you've just dreamt up on their behalf.
> 
> Unless you're arguing that they hid half the artwork away when 'is Royal 'Ighness was in the house.


 
I'm saying I was in there today and the walls were full of artwork including on the blanked out windows. What eminently sensible reason have you dreamt up for them blanking out the windows?


----------



## boohoo (Jun 23, 2012)

editor said:


> That really is a piss poor excuse you've just dreamt up on their behalf.
> 
> Unless you're arguing that they hid half the artwork away when 'is Royal 'Ighness was in the house.


 
The exhibition is only on Friday and Saturday  this weekend so artwork doesn't need to be in the building.


----------



## editor (Jun 23, 2012)

quimcunx said:


> I'm saying I was in there today and the walls were full of artwork including on the blanked out windows. What eminently sensible reason have you dreamt up for them blanking out the windows?


They were blanked out before the art exhibition started. They were blanked out for their Edwardian £40 supper club jaunt too. In fact, they've been blanked off the entire time - apart from when _Royalty_ arrived, of course.

Keeping the place blacked out just seems a strange way of going about business for a self styled 'community' venture to me. It doesn't seem particularly inclusive and inviting to my eyes, but perhaps you'll disagree.


----------



## boohoo (Jun 23, 2012)

I don't think there is people in the building all of the time so they might not want something that everyone can look into. I'm sure alot of community halls often have frosted windows or a lack of windows with horrible strip lighting. When we used the community hub in Blenheim gardens the other week, there is only one window and the shutter is now. The residence association building was equally as closed looking (and that does have more windows!)


----------



## editor (Jun 23, 2012)

I do find it a little weird you're making excuses for a self styled 'community arts' venture keeping its activities permanently hidden from view from the community behind blanked out windows (unless HRH is in the house, natch).

The curtains were always open when the pub was open in the daytimes, and that made it seem far more inviting to passers by. If I was really trying to get locals involved, the first thing I'd do is let them see what's going on and have the curtains up at least some of the time.

Try and think about how it looks to the actual real community that lives around the space.


----------



## quimcunx (Jun 23, 2012)

I find it quite offensive that you're accusing me of 'dreaming up excuses' for an enterprise I have no vested interest in either liking or disliking, defending or attacking. It's not a pub. I wasn't there for the supper party or for the RH visit. I was there today. I saw what I saw.


----------



## boohoo (Jun 23, 2012)

I did think it a little odd the curtain were open for HRH. However, I get the impression they aren't in the building that much as I tried to get in to meet someone there about organising an event and there was no-one around (couldn't get through on phone either, no door bell)

If I had a large space and only one or two people in the building on most days, I would be reluctant for people seeing into it looking empty for safety reasons.


----------



## editor (Jun 23, 2012)

boohoo said:


> I did think it a little odd the curtain were open for HRH. However, I get the impression they aren't in the building that much as I tried to get in to meet someone there about organising an event and there was no-one around (couldn't get through on phone either, no door bell)
> 
> If I had a large space and only one or two people in the building on most days, I would be reluctant for people seeing into it looking empty for safety reasons.


But when people are _*in*_ the building...?


----------



## boohoo (Jun 23, 2012)

editor said:


> But when people are _*in*_ the building...?


Yer, if upstairs and away from the rest of the building.


----------



## quimcunx (Jun 23, 2012)

They aren't curtains at the windows.  They are window-shaped chip board wedged into the windows, with art  mounted on them.


----------



## boohoo (Jun 23, 2012)

quimcunx said:


> They aren't curtains at the windows. They are window-shaped chip board wedged into the windows, with art mounted on them.


 
I really liked the drawings of the buildings along Coldharbour Lane - really nice illustrations.


----------



## quimcunx (Jun 23, 2012)

boohoo said:


> I really liked the drawings of the buildings along Coldharbour Lane - really nice illustrations.


 
I liked the stained glass style hubcaps with disco lights and the street preacher grouping of pictures.  I saw that people had bought single bits of that.  I'd want the group if I was going to have it at all I think.


----------



## boohoo (Jun 23, 2012)

quimcunx said:


> I liked the stained glass style hubcaps with disco lights and the street preacher grouping of pictures. I saw that people had bought single bits of that. I'd want the group if I was going to have it at all I think.


 
They were nice  - the sort of thing you could look at for ages and spot buildings, people, places that you see all of the time. (Not the cheapest though) I saw some buy one of the photographs (of the Railway/brady's building) it was £140 - bit pricey for a mediocre photo!


----------



## quimcunx (Jun 23, 2012)

the street preacher ones were £60 each.  I didn't look at many prices but thought what I did look at was about on a par with the urban art fair.


----------



## CH1 (Jun 24, 2012)

quimcunx said:


> Do we say blacks in this country? I thought that was a South Africa thing.


Do you want to ask my lodger - he's from Ghana. Or doesn't Ghana count?


----------



## editor (Jun 24, 2012)

£140 for a picture of Brady's? Welcome to nu-Brixton.


----------



## twistedAM (Jun 24, 2012)

editor said:


> £140 for a picture of Brady's? Welcome to nu-Brixton.


 
Say you're fucking jesting, please.


----------



## crawl (Jun 24, 2012)

I pass by there every day and I wouldn't have known anything was going on there at all if I hadn't read about it on here. Seems like the same old abandoned pub, except apparently Princes and art are lurking beyond at random...

If it's a community area do they plan to open it daily at any point as a social area? After school would be good. I see a flood of kids going into Morley's or the shops to buy chips / chicken / candy and all that, kind of hanging around with nothing to do. Give them a foosball table or something fun to mess with.


----------



## editor (Jun 24, 2012)

crawl said:


> If it's a community area do they plan to open it daily at any point as a social area? After school would be good. I see a flood of kids going into Morley's or the shops to buy chips / chicken / candy and all that, kind of hanging around with nothing to do. Give them a foosball table or something fun to mess with.


I suspect they're not interested in that kind of community, although that is _exactly_ what is needed.

This thread has had over 10,000 page views. Type in 'Angel Coldharbour Lane' and urban75 is top of the list.
Type in 'brick box angel coldharbour lane' and this urban thread is #1 too. They're tech savvy, so they'll know that too.

So why won't they talk openly about their plans here? It just feels like the only 'community' they're interested in is the one involving their chums in Brixton Villaaage.

I mean, how hard would it have been to have one or two open days at the start inviting local people in to chat about their plans and asking them if they'd like to get involved?

And surely even they must know how their £40 exclusive Edwardian supper club jolly would sound to the actual real local community, most of whom can only dream of such big spending nights.


----------



## lighterthief (Jun 24, 2012)

Ed, get a grip, you're like an anti-matter version of the Daily Mail


----------



## editor (Jun 24, 2012)

lighterthief said:


> Ed, get a grip, you're like an anti-matter version of the Daily Mail


Imagine! A local resident having an opinion!

Thanks for your input.


----------



## CH1 (Jun 24, 2012)

quimcunx said:


> the street preacher ones were £60 each. I didn't look at many prices but thought what I did look at was about on a par with the urban art fair.


I hope the preacher/s get something towards the collection out of that!
Should I put our Lord's preacher/s in touch with the chair of the Brixton Society?  Everything on the BS website is copyright it says - even the bits they don't like!


----------



## CH1 (Jun 24, 2012)

crawl said:


> I pass by there every day and I wouldn't have known anything was going on there at all if I hadn't read about it on here. Seems like the same old abandoned pub, except apparently Princes and art are lurking beyond at random...
> 
> If it's a community area do they plan to open it daily at any point as a social area? After school would be good. I see a flood of kids going into Morley's or the shops to buy chips / chicken / candy and all that, kind of hanging around with nothing to do. Give them a foosball table or something fun to mess with.


Very good idea. Shall I mention that to Steve Reed when I'm sending him the bumpf re the Old Harbour OAP Gym proposal we're cooking up for the other side of the road (hopefully funded by a Barratts section 106)?


----------



## CH1 (Jun 24, 2012)

lighterthief said:


> Ed, get a grip, you're like an anti-matter version of the Daily Mail


No - Ed is like Elisha - and I am like Elijah. Watch out you priests of Baal. You know what's coming to YOU!


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Jun 24, 2012)

Ooh I do like a biblical allusion on a Sunday morning. I wish I hadn't nearly choked on my coffee though!


----------



## RaverDrew (Jun 24, 2012)

Last night the "inspirational" street drinkers visited BrickBox... looked interesting tbf... but they still turned us away


----------



## CH1 (Jun 24, 2012)

I would like to make a dedication to the hipsters entertaining us at the Angel (sorry the band is from CLAPHAM JUNCTION) best I could do in the white heat of inspiration the morning:

Cool for Cats: Squeeze

The Indians send signals
From the rocks above the pass
The cowboys take positions
In the bushes and the grass
The squaw is with the Corporal
She is tied against the tree
She doesn't mind the language
It's the beating she don't need
She lets loose all the horses
When the Corporal is asleep
And he wakes to find the fire's dead
And arrows in his hats
And Davy Crockett rides around
And says it's cool for cats
The Sweeney's doing ninety
'Cos they've got the word to go
They get a gang of villains
In a she'd up at Heathrow
They're counting out the fivers
When the handcuffs lock again
In and out of Wandsworth
With the numbers on their names
It's funny how their missus'
Always look the bit insane
And meanwhile at the station
There's a couple of likely lads
Who swear like how's your father
And they're very cool for cats
They're cool for cats

To change the mood a little
I've been posing down the pub
On seeing my reflection
I'm looking slightly rough
I fancy this, I fancy that
I wanna be so flash
I give a little muscle
And I spend a little cash
But all I get is bitter and a nasty little rash
And by the time I'm sober
I've forgotten what I've had
And ev'rybody tells me that it's cool to be a cat
Cool for cats

Shake up at the disco
And I think I've got a pull
I ask her lots of questions
And she hangs on to the wall
I kiss her for the first time
And then I take her home
I'm invited in for coffee
And I give the dog a bone
She likes to go to discos
But she's never on her own
I said I'll see you later
And I give her some old chat
But it's not like that on the TV
When it's cool for cats
It's cool for cats

_*Final final appeal - anyone know of a good mouser looking for an excellent feed.*_
_*I made a terrible mistake yesterday. Got some De-Luxe Nougat from Lidl @ £1.49*_
_*Left it out on the arm chair overnight (unopened). The little micees had it on the floor and chomped through the heavy plastic to get at the De-Luxe which now looks rather tainted.*_
_*Will someone rid me of these turbulent mice!!!*_


----------



## gabi (Jun 24, 2012)

RaverDrew said:


> Last night the "inspirational" street drinkers visited BrickBox... looked interesting tbf... but they still turned us away


 
Elaborate? haven't kept up with this thread, whats all this about...


----------



## ddraig (Jun 24, 2012)

apparently their blurb said something about 'inspirational street drinkers'

what reason did they give for turning you away drew?


----------



## mxh (Jun 24, 2012)

http://www.pestcontrolshop.co.uk/acatalog/Neosorexa-Bait-Blocks-2-5Kg-Tub.html
For Mice these work, you will need bait boxes to put them in.
After trying glue traps, sound devices, humane traps and traditional wooden traps to no effect, these worked.


----------



## gabi (Jun 24, 2012)

Good point


----------



## boohoo (Jun 24, 2012)

editor said:


> £140 for a picture of Brady's? Welcome to nu-Brixton.


 
It is an art fair kind of price. I didn't rate the pic... but then I'm fussy.


----------



## boohoo (Jun 24, 2012)

crawl said:


> I pass by there every day and I wouldn't have known anything was going on there at all if I hadn't read about it on here. Seems like the same old abandoned pub, except apparently Princes and art are lurking beyond at random...
> 
> If it's a community area do they plan to open it daily at any point as a social area? After school would be good. I see a flood of kids going into Morley's or the shops to buy chips / chicken / candy and all that, kind of hanging around with nothing to do. Give them a foosball table or something fun to mess with.


 
An after school place is a great idea but you need people (CRB checked) willing to take on the kids, keep them occupied and out of trouble and dealing with any issues that come up (gang issues, teenage pregnancies, schooling/parents problems). And then paying staff and funding any activities.


----------



## boohoo (Jun 24, 2012)

RaverDrew said:


> Last night the "inspirational" street drinkers visited BrickBox... looked interesting tbf... but they still turned us away


 
They do seem to have a bouncer dude who hurried us out of there at the 5 pm closing time. It's a fairly small space if it gets busy in there. If there is another free event, I'm pop along (though navigating the back door with a pushchair is no fun).


----------



## boohoo (Jun 24, 2012)

CH1 said:


> Very good idea. Shall I mention that to Steve Reed when I'm sending him the bumpf re the Old Harbour OAP Gym proposal we're cooking up for the other side of the road (hopefully funded by a Barratts section 106)?


 

Ohhh... Barratts section 106  (we have a mural that needs a repair! ) What's your gym scheme?


----------



## Brixton Hatter (Jun 24, 2012)

http://coldharbourrocks.wordpress.com/


----------



## CH1 (Jun 24, 2012)

boohoo said:


> Ohhh... Barratts section 106 (we have a mural that needs a repair! ) What's your gym scheme? [/quote]
> Gym scheme - preliminary musings


----------



## boohoo (Jun 24, 2012)

Great idea!! and maybe create a wall like the Stockwell Pen to encourage quality graffiti.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 24, 2012)

lighterthief said:


> Ed, get a grip, you're like an anti-matter version of the Daily Mail


 
Wouldn't an anti-matter version of the _Daily Mail_ be impossible, given the negatively-charged energies emanating from it? Isn't it already an anti-matter version of itself?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 24, 2012)

CH1 said:


> I would like to make a dedication to the hipsters entertaining us at the Angel (sorry the band is from CLAPHAM JUNCTION) best I could do in the white heat of inspiration the morning:
> 
> Cool for Cats: Squeeze
> 
> ...


 
They're from  various points of SE London acksherly, Dulwich, Deptford, Catford, Lewisham and Forest Hill IIRC. They did have a single called "Up the Junction", though.


----------



## teuchter (Jun 25, 2012)

editor said:


> So why won't they talk openly about their plans here?


It's hard to imagine what might put them off.

Surely they realise that anything they say will be considered in a reasoned and unprejudiced manner by any self-appointed representatives of the actual real local community who might be on this thread.


----------



## ddraig (Jun 25, 2012)

miiiaw
wehre's our handbag icon gone!!


----------



## ddraig (Jun 25, 2012)

and i guess it depends if they are brad like spin doctors who can't actually justify their plans


----------



## editor (Jun 25, 2012)

teuchter said:


> It's hard to imagine what might put them off.
> 
> Surely they realise that anything they say will be considered in a reasoned and unprejudiced manner by any self-appointed representatives of the actual real local community who might be on this thread.


I see you've got it all arse about tit again. Jeez.
You really can be hopelessly clueless at times.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 25, 2012)

editor said:


> I see you've got it all arse about tit again. Jeez.
> You really can be hopelessly clueless at times.


 
Nah, he's just being a typical teuchter.


----------



## teuchter (Jun 25, 2012)

editor said:


> I see you've got it all arse about tit again. Jeez.
> You really can be hopelessly clueless at times.


QED


----------



## twistedAM (Jun 25, 2012)

RaverDrew said:


> Last night the "inspirational" street drinkers visited BrickBox... looked interesting tbf... but they still turned us away


 
hey dude...what was their excuse? Or was that line just  some nu-brixton spiel they were just crapping out?


----------



## CH1 (Jun 25, 2012)

twistedAM said:


> hey dude...what was their excuse? Or was that line just some nu-brixton spiel they were just crapping out?


The doormen probably thought they were not "fit"
Never mind - that problem will be solved if I have anything to do with it.
BTW sign the petition


----------



## twistedAM (Jun 25, 2012)

CH1 said:


> The doormen probably thought they were not "fit"
> Never mind - that problem will be solved if I have anything to do with it.
> BTW sign the petition


 
An I being dumb or can I just not see the link to the petition on your blog?
My excuse, in advance, is that i have computer fatigue after a long day.


----------



## CH1 (Jun 26, 2012)

twistedAM said:


> An I being dumb or can I just not see the link to the petition on your blog?
> My excuse, in advance, is that i have computer fatigue after a long day.


Sorry - it's me. I should have put post your (very supportive) comments.
I have not done a petition - yet!


----------



## RaverDrew (Jun 27, 2012)

RaverDrew said:


> Last night the "inspirational" street drinkers visited BrickBox... looked interesting tbf... but they still turned us away





gabi said:


> Elaborate? haven't kept up with this thread, whats all this about...





ddraig said:


> apparently their blurb said something about 'inspirational street drinkers'
> 
> what reason did they give for turning you away drew?





twistedAM said:


> hey dude...what was their excuse? Or was that line just some nu-brixton spiel they were just crapping out?


 
Sorry, I forgot all about this post 

Basically, I received an invite to this event via fb...

https://www.facebook.com/events/131735920287555/



> 354 Coldharbour Lane, formely The Angel public house​
> ​
> Exhibition SW9 is an arts show all about Brixton hosted by The Brick Box and OpenDoors London. During the weekend ExhibItion SW9 will be exploring and celebrating Brixton and its community through art. Events include:
> 
> ...


 
So I was sitting in the pub on Saturday evening, and I thought to myself, I'm not surrounded by enough cunts. So I popped down the road to the Angel to go see some cunts. I wasn't too disappointed...

We got there just before midnight, had a quick look around before being ushered out by a bouncer telling us that the place was closed. I was under the false assumption it would be open until 2am as advertised ? There were still some people there but apparently they all worked there or were part of the exhibition.  

tbf to them it was pissing down with rain, and most of the action seemed outside in the stables/courtyard, so the place wasn't particularly busy, but it seems like an interesting use of space, with some potential.

They told us they'd be having an event there this weekend too, so I'm willing to come back and give it another chance.


----------



## Onket (Jun 27, 2012)

RaverDrew said:


> So I was sitting in the pub on Saturday evening, and I thought to myself, I'm not surrounded by enough cunts.


 
Which pub?!


----------



## Yelkcub (Jun 27, 2012)

Onket said:


> Which pub?!


 
The Cuntless Arms?


----------



## RaverDrew (Jun 27, 2012)

Onket said:


> Which pub?!


It's irrelevant really which pub I was in. All I'll say is that there wasn't an offline event happening that evening


----------



## CH1 (Jun 27, 2012)

Don Giovanni - benefit performance for Pastor Mimi 
I just had a brainwave - since I started watching my new (second-hand) Decca DVD of Don Giovanni in the Peter Sellars "gangsta" production. The lead male roles are played by the Perry twins from Detroit. It's got lots of interracial. Very Brixton and edgy.
This opera makes the Brixton Gas Gang look like amateurs!
Anyone know if there is a Plasma and DVD player in the BrickBox? We could have a charity showing of Don Giovanni - with profits donated to Pastor Mimi and her work among the gangs saving the yute!
Edgy huh? Of course the fact that this would be highly illegal under US copyright piracy laws - even if you bought the DVD as I did, must just be the icing on the cake!


----------



## teuchter (Jun 27, 2012)

Yelkcub said:


> The Cuntless Arms?


Is that in Machynlleth?


----------



## Maggot (Jun 27, 2012)

CH1 said:


> Don Giovanni - benefit performance for Pastor Mimi
> I just had a brainwave - since I started watching my new (second-hand) Decca DVD of Don Giovanni in the Peter Sellars "gangsta" production. The lead male roles are played by the Perry twins from Detroit. It's got lots of interracial. Very Brixton and edgy.
> This opera makes the Brixton Gas Gang look like amateurs!
> Anyone know if there is a Plasma and DVD player in the BrickBox? We could have a charity showing of Don Giovanni - with profits donated to Pastor Mimi and her work among the gangs saving the yute!
> Edgy huh? Of course the fact that this would be highly illegal under US copyright piracy laws - even if you bought the DVD as I did, must just be the icing on the cake!


Who's Pastor Mimi?


----------



## RaverDrew (Jun 27, 2012)

http://www.brixtonblog.com/brixton-pastor-given-civic-award-by-lambeth-mayor/4521


----------



## CH1 (Jun 28, 2012)

RaverDrew said:


> http://www.brixtonblog.com/brixton-pastor-given-civic-award-by-lambeth-mayor/4521


Thanks for putting that one up Drew. "I never would have known"


----------



## kalibuzz (Jun 28, 2012)

now I'm quite sure the former Angel clientele is gonna come to this ,http://www.eventbrite.com/event/3733515044,


----------



## editor (Jun 28, 2012)

> We like Rude. We love Food.  Its perfect really.
> Let us sate your every appetite with Rude Food.
> 
> Get warmed up with canapés off a peachy bottomed lady, slippery nipple in hand, and let us finish you off with an unctuous, well rounded sweet with curves in all the right places.
> ...


Forty fucking quid.


----------



## Brixton Hatter (Jun 28, 2012)

kalibuzz said:


> now I'm quite sure the former Angel clientele is gonna come to this ,http://www.eventbrite.com/event/3733515044,


You see, this is EXACTLY what 'community arts' are all about.


----------



## ddraig (Jun 28, 2012)

oh ffs!
how FUN + QUIRKY and soooo sexy crazy COOL!

like to see how the apologists justify this


----------



## peterkro (Jun 28, 2012)

Yuck!


----------



## Brixton Hatter (Jun 28, 2012)

How does this event meet their stated aims to "...* provide transformative tools and essential inspiration in order to improve social, emotional, economic and cultural health for all"  *


----------



## editor (Jun 28, 2012)

Brixton Hatter said:


> How does this event meet their stated aims to "...* provide transformative tools and essential inspiration in order to improve social, emotional, economic and cultural health for all"  *


Not quite sure how this elitist food event fits in with their website guff either:


> We look for inspiration from the streets of the world; the places that are visceral and rough and ready; where the street drinkers hang out; where the bins are kept.





> By establishing our initial bases in working markets in south London (Tooting and Brixton), we are freely accessible to a diverse audience, many of whom would traditionally self-exclude from arts experiences


http://www.thebrickbox.co.uk/about-us.html


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 28, 2012)

Crickey, you've really got it in for them, haven't you?


----------



## ddraig (Jun 28, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> Crickey, you've really got it in for them, haven't you?


 are you titalated by the rude food? think it is a good inclusive event?


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 28, 2012)

ddraig said:


> are you titalated by the rude food? think it is a good inclusive event?


Nah, none of their events look like my kind of thing, but I'm all up for a bit of diversity.


----------



## RaverDrew (Jun 28, 2012)

editor said:


> Forty fucking quid.


 I could buy a week's worth of k cider or special brew for that !!!


----------



## editor (Jun 28, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> Crickey, you've really got it in for them, haven't you?


I'm just quoting their website and letting people make up their own minds. 


Orang Utan said:


> Nah, none of their events look like my kind of thing, but I'm all up for a bit of diversity.


Me too. But not at £40 a head as that tends to rather limit the 'diversity' of the people who are able to attend, particularly in a poor area.


----------



## Kanda (Jun 28, 2012)

editor said:


> Me too. But not at £40 a head as that tends to rather limit the 'diversity' of the people who are able to attend, particularly in a poor area.


 
Yet it will probably still be well attended.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 28, 2012)

It's not an exclusively poor area though. 
I get angry sometimes at some of the effects of gentrification, but I can't get angry at an arts venue putting on art.
40 quid is a fucking joke though


----------



## editor (Jun 28, 2012)

Kanda said:


> Yet it will probably still be well attended.


Of course. There's no shortage of well-off people willing to come down to Brixton for a jolly good feast in a private party. But how does this £40 sexy tuck-in relate to their stated aims about being a 'community' arts venture  putting on events that are 'freely accessible to a diverse audience'?


----------



## Onket (Jun 28, 2012)

editor said:


> I'm just quoting their website and letting people make up their own minds.


 


Yes, that's all you've done isn't it!


----------



## Kanda (Jun 28, 2012)

editor said:


> Of course. There's no shortage of well-off people willing to come down to Brixton for a jolly good feast in a private party. But how does this £40 sexy tuck-in relate to their stated aims about being a 'community' arts venture putting on events that are 'freely accessible to a diverse audience'?


 
There's no shortage of well off people already IN Brixton. LIVING HERE! OMG!


----------



## editor (Jun 28, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> 40 quid is a fucking joke though


That's what I'm angry about.

The Angel could have been a brilliant venture. They could have brought in working artists and invited the local community to come in and get involved, and put on all sorts of great, inclusive projects - and still had their posh £40 meals. I'm sure there's no shortage of kids on the estate who would love to get involved with something like this.

Instead, it sits there with its windows permanently blacked out to the local community, while behind closed doors those who can afford it enjoy the exclusive slap up meals, 'decadent' Edwardian dressing up parties and sexy food jaunts.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 28, 2012)

Let the toffs have their fun.
At least we'll know where they are.
We could always start our own arts project
Well, I say 'we'. I can't be arsed


----------



## CH1 (Jun 28, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> Let the toffs have their fun.
> At least we'll know where they are.
> We could always start our own arts project
> Well, I say 'we'. I can't be arsed


What's wrong with Redgate Gallery or Block 366 then?
Wrong part of Brixton?
_*SNOUT NOT LONG ENOUGH FOR A RECEDING TROUGH ??????*_


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 28, 2012)

Nothing wrong with them at all. Red Gate is a tiny place though


----------



## teuchter (Jun 28, 2012)

Editor - why don't you ask them if they would like to host an Offline night?

Then the bar proceeds could go to a community interest group rather than a commercial enterprise. You could stipulate that the takings are used to put on something inclusive.

Having on offline there would introduce the actual local community to the venue, and vice versa.

The money from the offline night might mean they put on fewer hoity-toity nights for revenue-generating purposes.

Everyone's a winner, no?


----------



## Badgers (Jun 28, 2012)

We are all winners


----------



## editor (Jun 28, 2012)

teuchter said:


> Editor - why don't you ask them if they would like to host an Offline night?


Sorry, but my club nights only take place in venues where the admission is free and open to all, there's beers on tap and there's a decent sound system.

I don't believe the Brick Box/Angel fit any of those criteria as all of their evening events are priced at a minimum of £5, there's no decent sound system and - AFAIK - there's no beer on tap.

However, if there was a chance the pub could reopen as it was - i.e as a proper community pub - I'd be the first offering to help.


----------



## ddraig (Jun 28, 2012)

teuchter said:


> Editor - why don't you ask them if they would like to host an Offline night?
> 
> Then the bar proceeds could go to a community interest group rather than a commercial enterprise. You could stipulate that the takings are used to put on something inclusive.
> 
> ...


 naiive
firstly, why should an established night at an established location move to bolster some half arsed attempt at occupying a building for what mostly seems their needs? and to get the funding rolling in rahrah.
2 why can't they even try and live up to their stupid spiel and try to be more inclusive themselves.

you can say, "at least it is being used" and "well they are doing SOMETHING" etc but the bottom line is (from what i've gathered and read) that they're quite happy to play with the premises while chucking the odd bone to "mums and kids" and not do much else for the community.
oh unless there's a royalty a visiting and they have to round some urchings up, take down the boards and play to the brief for a few hours... imagine all the riches it'll bring! chingching


----------



## ddraig (Jun 28, 2012)

cross posted! also, yeah, the beers would likely be shit small and expensive, so not the same at all
e2a and warm!


----------



## teuchter (Jun 28, 2012)

Badgers said:


> We are all winners


 
Your mum's a winner.


----------



## Badgers (Jun 28, 2012)

teuchter said:
			
		

> Your mum's a winner.



Judo for Britain mate. Don't mess


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Jun 28, 2012)

ddraig said:


> oh unless there's a royalty a visiting and they have to round some urchings up, take down the boards and play to the brief for a few hours... imagine all the riches it'll bring! chingching


I may have misunderstood, but I thought the cash had already been raked in from some sort of community grant.


----------



## ddraig (Jun 28, 2012)

yes but just imagine how much gothic chic you can buy with more!!!!!
and the more money there is, the nicer the things that can be put through on expenses etc

they could get a big flashy corporate tent to take to more fundraising jaunts! even a vehicle all branded up etc etc etc


----------



## Dan U (Jun 28, 2012)

Mrs Magpie said:


> I may have misunderstood, but I thought the cash had already been raked in from some sort of community grant.


 
the drugs have to be paid for somehow.


----------



## teuchter (Jun 28, 2012)

editor said:


> Sorry, but my club nights only take place in venues where the admission is free and open to all, there's beers on tap and there's a decent sound system.
> 
> I don't believe the Brick Box/Angel fit any of those criteria as all of their evening events are priced at a minimum of £5, there's no decent sound system and - AFAIK - there's no beer on tap.
> 
> However, if there was a chance the pub could reopen as it was - i.e as a proper community pub - I'd be the first offering to help.


 
The reason they charge £5 for things is that they probably don't attract a heavy-drinking crowd so they can't cover their costs with bar takings. I wouldn't be surprised if they were happy for something like offline to be free.

As for beer-on-tap or sound systems, I doubt these would be insurmountable problems. and when I've been to nights in these kinds of places in the past, usually the beer is a fair bit cheaper than somewhere like the Albert or Jamm, even if it is just cans from an ice bucket.

If having beer on tap is more important to the Offline concept than avoiding lining the pockets of brewery shareholders, then fair enough, that's your decision.


----------



## boohoo (Jun 28, 2012)

It might be that what they want to do and what they are able to do are too different things?(do all events need to generate cash?)

All events are organised by groups looking for a venue to use. As we do not know how many proper local groups have asked and found it not to their liking, we can't say why it seems to be expensive events using the space.

Interestingly, last weeks project  (Open Doors) seems to usually be free - so the SW9 project is the first one to do a late evening paying session. It'll be interesting to see if the rest of the Open Doors projects go that way or if that is something Brick Box has encouraged them to do.

There have always been tons of well off people in and around Brixton - little pockets of people in posh houses - so Brick Box is serving the local community (just not the immediate local community)


----------



## ddraig (Jun 28, 2012)

teuchter said:


> The reason they charge £5 for things is that they probably don't attract a heavy-drinking crowd so they can't cover their costs with bar takings. I wouldn't be surprised if they were happy for something like offline to be free.
> 
> As for beer-on-tap or sound systems, I doubt these would be insurmountable problems. and when I've been to nights in these kinds of places in the past, usually the beer is a fair bit cheaper than somewhere like the Albert or Jamm, even if it is just cans from an ice bucket.
> 
> If having beer on tap is more important to the Offline concept than avoiding lining the pockets of brewery shareholders, then fair enough, that's your decision.


 how much do you want to bet that they would most likely not want someone else's event in there that wasn't dress up debauchery and they didn't control?
i can see what you are saying but again, going from what i've gleaned, how many of 'these kind of places' are there?


----------



## editor (Jun 28, 2012)

teuchter said:


> If having beer on tap is more important to the Offline concept than avoiding lining the pockets of brewery shareholders, then fair enough, that's your decision.


The Offline concept is all about putting on great entertainment that is free for all to enjoy, in places that are welcoming and affordable.

I'm not particularly interested in getting involved in places that seem to have shown no interest in engaging with the local community and hold expensive, exclusive evenings behind blacked out windows that I can't afford to go to. Not my thing, sorry.

As for 'lining the pockets of brewery shareholders' I'd rather be doing my bit to try and keep traditional community pubs open than be involved in helping a developer sell his luxury flats.


----------



## CH1 (Jun 28, 2012)

ddraig said:


> naiive
> firstly, why should an established night at an established location move to bolster some half arsed attempt at occupying a building for what mostly seems their needs? and to get the funding rolling in rahrah.
> 2 why can't they even try and live up to their stupid spiel and try to be more inclusive themselves.
> oh unless there's a royalty a visiting and they have to round some urchings up, take down the boards and play to the brief for a few hours... imagine all the riches it'll bring! chingching


Prince Charles has been pretty Naive on this one.
I could of course send him a copy of one of my favourite LPs - by the current Master of the Queen's Musick as it happens. Eight Songs for A Mad King. By Sir Peter Maxwell Davies - well-known scourge of the Blairite war on Iraq


----------



## editor (Jun 28, 2012)

boohoo said:


> Interestingly, last weeks project (Open Doors) seems to usually be free - so the SW9 project is the first one to do a late evening paying session.


It wasn't free. It cost £5 in the evening.

http://www.thebrickbox.co.uk/archive.html


----------



## editor (Jun 28, 2012)

boohoo said:


> There have always been tons of well off people in and around Brixton - little pockets of people in posh houses - so Brick Box is serving the local community (just not the immediate local community)


The Brick Box is only actually serving the Brixton Villaaage 'community'.


----------



## editor (Jun 28, 2012)

teuchter said:


> The reason they charge £5 for things is that they probably don't attract a heavy-drinking crowd so they can't cover their costs with bar takings.


What 'costs' by the way? It's staffed by unpaid volunteers.


----------



## teuchter (Jun 28, 2012)

ddraig said:


> how much do you want to bet that they would most likely not want someone else's event in there that wasn't dress up debauchery and they didn't control?


 



			
				Brick Box website said:
			
		

> Over the next six months we aim to​
> Provide a welcoming, inspiring and safe space for people
> Build an artistic community
> *Offer local people opportunities to curate and host events*
> Experiment with a varied and exciting programme


 

Seeing as they specifically are offering exactly this, then shouldn't we presume it's a genuine offer, unless we have reason to believe that they are turning people down?

Rather than them offering this, then a load of reactionary internet people just assuming that they wouldn't, without even approaching them?






ddraig said:


> i can see what you are saying but again, going from what i've gleaned, how many of 'these kind of places' are there?


 
Loads of them - they come and go in London all the time. Disused building, bunch of mainly artist types putting stuff on which usually consists of a mixture of wanky art stuff, so-so art stuff, late night events with music and whatnot which are often quite good and usually relatively cheap drinks/entry.

Everyone seems to be jumping on them because they have put on a couple of not-so-affordable events that are obviously aimed at middle-class waged people, but I don't see how this is deviating from what they say they want to do which is offer a *varied* programme. If everything they do is £40 in then fair enough, they aren't living up to their aims. But I don't see why they can't do that alongside other stuff. All their daytime events at Tooting were free. They haven't claimed they are there to cater solely for the least affluent portion of their immediate neighbourhood.


----------



## boohoo (Jun 28, 2012)

editor said:


> It wasn't free. It cost £5 in the evening.
> 
> http://www.thebrickbox.co.uk/archive.html


 
That's what I said... probably phrased it badly.  Open doors does postcode projects (SW4 and one in Shepherd bush) and everyone they have done seems to be entirely free. The one at the Brick Box (SW9) looks like the first with a late night event which cost £5. Whether this is because it's a good way to generate cash for both projects or a suggestion from Brick box, I don't know!


----------



## teuchter (Jun 28, 2012)

editor said:


> places that seem to have shown no interest in engaging with the local community


 

Over the next six months we aim to​
Provide a welcoming, inspiring and safe space for people
Build an artistic community
*Offer local people opportunities to curate and host events*
Experiment with a varied and exciting programme
*We are very keen to hear your ideas and thoughts. Get in touch via hello@thebrickbox.co.uk*​


----------



## teuchter (Jun 28, 2012)

editor said:


> What 'costs' by the way? It's staffed by unpaid volunteers.


 
Materials
Electricity
Stuff they need to hire for the event
Transport

the usual stuff in other words


----------



## boohoo (Jun 28, 2012)

editor said:


> The Brick Box is only actually serving the Brixton Villaaage 'community'.


 
I use Brixton Villaaage. And am a genuine local person - born and raised - council house, local schools. Lived here 3/4 of my life. now living in Central Brixton. I've ate cheap meals at the village, bought some tad and had some nice coffee. How can people tell that I'm not a new comer - even worst I have a pushchair so must be one of those mummy types from Herne Hill.


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## editor (Jun 28, 2012)

teuchter said:


> *We are very keen to hear your ideas and thoughts. Get in touch via *​*hello@thebrickbox.co.uk*​


If you're so keen and think its such a great idea, why don't you get in touch and put on your own events?

I've already clearly explained the reasons why I'm not interested, but it seems that you're incapable of absorbing them.


----------



## editor (Jun 28, 2012)

boohoo said:


> I use Brixton Villaaage. And am a genuine local person - born and raised - council house, local schools. Lived here 3/4 of my life. now living in Central Brixton. I've ate cheap meals at the village, bought some tad and had some nice coffee. How can people tell that I'm not a new comer - even worst I have a pushchair so must be one of those mummy types from Herne Hill.


How many of the £40 diner jaunts have you been to at the Brick Box? And who cares what people think anyway?


----------



## kalibuzz (Jun 28, 2012)

Kanda said:


> Yet it will probably still be well attended.


of course, ''freely accessible to a diverse audience, many of whom would traditionally self-exclude from arts experiences'', i.e. creatively challenged wankers. What about calamari straight off a dick? Don't think many people would pay £40 for that, would they?? They can do what they want, what annoys me is the fakeness of it, presenting it as community art, and what not, and it's 'oh, so rude'. WTF?


----------



## Onket (Jun 28, 2012)

And so it continues.


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## Orang Utan (Jun 28, 2012)

Brickbox reminds me very much of the organisation that ran the 'pop-up' club Shunt in London.
Here's an ecstatic review I found on the Internet:
http://www.urban75.org/2009/04/shunt-club-london-bridge-absolutely.html


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## ddraig (Jun 28, 2012)

the clincher being 'curate' and 'host' teuchter not 'have', 'put on' or 'run'
and i'm guessing that phrase also unlocks funding for "community engagement", "outreach","opportunities for the disadvantaged" yada yada


----------



## ddraig (Jun 28, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> Brickbox reminds me very much of the organisation that ran the 'pop-up' club Shunt in London.
> Here's an ecstatic review I found on the Internet:
> http://www.urban75.org/2009/04/shunt-club-london-bridge-absolutely.html


naughty naughty! 
how many events like that have they put on then? do they have a roller disco? how much do you think they'd charge if they had the Actionettes there?
and surely shunt was liked due to location and size?


----------



## editor (Jun 28, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> Brickbox reminds me very much of the organisation that ran the 'pop-up' club Shunt in London.
> Here's an ecstatic review I found on the Internet:
> http://www.urban75.org/2009/04/shunt-club-london-bridge-absolutely.html


Did they claim to be a community group that likes to hang out where the 'street drinkers are and when the bins are kept'?
Did they take over a traditional West Indian pub and start putting on exclusive £40 toff dinners?
Did their premises face social housing?

No? Oh, I'll have to look elsewhere for your 'point', then.


----------



## editor (Jun 28, 2012)

ddraig said:


> naughty naughty!
> how many events like that have they put on then? do they have a roller disco? how much do you think they'd charge if they had the Actionettes there?
> and surely shunt was liked due to location and size?


It was in the disused arches under London Bridge station. It's a truly facile comparison.


----------



## boohoo (Jun 28, 2012)

ddraig said:


> and surely shunt was liked due to location and size?


 
Partly - but we have the old vic tunnels which have had some nice art shows but although great location doesn't put on the same kind of stuff as Shunt did. You might find that "locals" would not like the shunt type of stuff even if it was for free.


----------



## editor (Jun 28, 2012)

boohoo said:


> Partly - but we have the old vic tunnels which have had some nice art shows but although great location doesn't put on the same kind of stuff as Shunt did. You might find that "locals" would not like the shunt type of stuff even if it was for free.


Not that many locals living directly under London Bridge station, I'd fancy.


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## ddraig (Jun 28, 2012)

obviously 
how many locals are there in london bridge?


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 28, 2012)

ddraig said:


> naughty naughty!
> how many events like that have they put on then? do they have a roller disco? how much do you think they'd charge if they had the Actionettes there?
> and surely shunt was liked due to location and size?


It was on a much grander scale, but its aesthetic was very similar. Dancing girls, dressing up, sorta cabaret/circussy,
little bit exclusive as the events weren't publicised hugely. I bet both places had people in the crowd rocking the Victorian strongmen look


----------



## ddraig (Jun 28, 2012)

anyway i don't bloody live in brixton or even london anymore but have come across these sorts before and they proper irk me they do!


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 28, 2012)

editor said:


> Not that many locals living directly under London Bridge station, I'd fancy.


No, but there is a large local community very nearby.


----------



## editor (Jun 28, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> It was on a much grander scale, but its aesthetic was very similar. Dancing girls, dressing up, sorta cabaret/circussy,
> little bit exclusive as the events weren't publicised hugely. I bet both places had people in the crowd rocking the Victorian strongmen look


I had a great night there. Not sure what it's got to do with Brick Box's £40 whizzo dinner jaunts behind blacked out windows in Brixton though.


----------



## editor (Jun 28, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> No, but there is a large local community very nearby.


Is there a point here?


----------



## boohoo (Jun 28, 2012)

editor said:


> Did they claim to be a community group that likes to hang out where the 'street drinkers are and when the bins are kept'?
> Did they take over a traditional West Indian pub and start putting on exclusive £40 toff dinners?
> Did their premises face social housing?
> 
> No? Oh, I'll have to look elsewhere for your 'point', then.


 

Do the people in social housing not spend this kind of money? 
The pub had closed. You are saying that people in social housing only like a certain type of thing? The meal wasn't for toffs. it was for those who choose to spend £40 on a meal. i'm sure there are men and women who live in social housing who spend that kind of money down the pub or in a bar at the weekend. Do we have to exclude certain things from the area because we (that is the outspoken of urban75) think it's not appropriate? What if it was a West Indian Supper club at £40  - would it be equally as wrong?


----------



## boohoo (Jun 28, 2012)

editor said:


> Not that many locals living directly under London Bridge station, I'd fancy.


 
I've read Neverwhere - it's mice and other strange creatures!


----------



## Kanda (Jun 28, 2012)

boohoo said:


> What if it was a West Indian Supper club at £40  - would it be equally as wrong?



Great idea, I'd go


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 28, 2012)

editor said:


> Is there a point here?


Just find there's little difference aesthetically in the kind of events you like and put on to the events that seem to go on at Brickbox, regardless of the community-focussed worthiness of Brickbox's enterprise.


----------



## editor (Jun 28, 2012)

boohoo said:


> Do the people in social housing not spend this kind of money?


Perhaps some do, but no one I know in the block can afford that kind of money for such a night. I certainly can't.

And that's assuming that locals even get to hear about these nights, which seems very unlikely, seeing as Brick Box have never shown any interest in advertising locally. I have never seen even one poster in the window for these £40 fancies.

And, of course, when their supper club events are on, they take place behind blacked out windows, so locals are unlikely to learn anything then.

If they were genuinely interested in inviting the local community, how hard would it be to post up some posters in the windows or leaflets in local shops? Or put up a poster up in the foyers of the massive block opposite?


----------



## editor (Jun 28, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> Just find there's little difference aesthetically in the kind of events you like and put on to the events that seem to go on at Brickbox, regardless of the community-focussed worthiness of Brickbox's enterprise.


Except mine are always open to all, are advertised locally, have reasonably priced drinks, don't cost £40 a head, are free to get in and don't take place behind blacked out windows.

Apart from that, yes, they're identical.


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## Orang Utan (Jun 28, 2012)

You're a secret hipster.


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## Orang Utan (Jun 28, 2012)

editor said:


> Perhaps some do, but no one I know in the block can afford that kind of money for such a night. I certainly can't.


I bet you've spent that in the pub


----------



## boohoo (Jun 28, 2012)

editor said:


> Perhaps some do, but no one I know in the block can afford that kind of money for such a night. I certainly can't.
> 
> And that's assuming that locals even get to hear about these night, which seems very unlikely, seeing as Brick Box have never shown any interest in advertising locally. I have never seen even one poster in the window for these £40 fancies.


 
Their promotions are limited. However it might be down to the people who are running the shows - are they picking up a ready made audience from the event organizers hence a small amount of promotion? Or are they unorganised? Or naive - only using internet?


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## ddraig (Jun 28, 2012)

how hard can it be to put something in the window/door saying ?
*next event - *
*coming up this week/month -*
*want to put on (sorry curate) your event here, come in and speak to us between 10am-12noon on a blue monday or contact tabitha@eventcreative.brickbox.net*


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## teuchter (Jun 28, 2012)

editor said:


> Perhaps some do, but no one I know in the block can afford that kind of money for such a night. I certainly can't.


You've never drunk 10 pints in the course of a night out then?


----------



## teuchter (Jun 28, 2012)

editor said:


> If you're so keen and think its such a great idea, why don't you get in touch and put on your own events?


 
I don't want to put on any events and anyway I suspect I'm not part of the actual real local real actual community. I can't see the Angel from my front door and I don't live in social housing.


----------



## ddraig (Jun 28, 2012)

why are you defending these people and hypocrisy hunting? 
do you have a pal involved? are you angling to curate?


----------



## CH1 (Jun 28, 2012)

replied to the wrong guy-sorry


----------



## CH1 (Jun 28, 2012)

editor said:


> no one I know in the block can afford that kind of money for such a night.


Peter Shapcott can - he still hasn't paid back £1,500 of the £2,000 his "charity" _*The Eddy Surman Trust*_ borrowed from me in the 1990s - pending being "cash-flowed" by an Elton John Foundation grant he said. Miriam Margolies "patron" to boot.
What a con-man. Playing on people's sympathies for AIDS sufferers. Saw him in the market last week. Looked healthier than me, which is surprising, considering all those expensive recreational drugs he used to take.
He should fuck off back to Portsmouth and do some sailors (they better wear condoms of course).


----------



## editor (Jun 28, 2012)

teuchter said:
			
		

> You've never drunk 10 pints in the course of a night out then?



No I haven't. I don't drink ten pints in any night, least not since I was about 21, and I can't remember the last time I spent £40 on a night out. 

I don't know where you drink but don't spend £4 on a pint either.


----------



## CH1 (Jun 28, 2012)

editor said:


> No I haven't. I don't drink ten pints in any night, least not since I was about 21, and I can't remember the last time I spent £40 on a night out.
> 
> I don't know where you drink but don't spend £4 on a pint either.


People should stick the Beehive with the riff-raff like me. At least you know there is no where lower to go (in Brixton anyway).
I went to the Effra last night for a meeting with the BS webmaster. Nice atmosphere - but Tom was buying. The only ale available was Doom Bar - although it was really rather good!


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## editor (Jun 28, 2012)

Doom Bar is everywhere now. The Hand in Hand do a particularly fine pint.


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## CH1 (Jun 28, 2012)

editor said:


> Doom Bar is everywhere now. The Hand in Hand do a particularly fine pint.


Yes Coors bought it up and closed the brewery in Cornwall, moving it to Burton onTrent. Why did they stop doing Directors and Courage Best then? (sold the right to the trade name to Wells & Young)


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## ViolentPanda (Jun 28, 2012)

teuchter said:


> Over the next six months we aim to​
> Provide a welcoming, inspiring and safe space for people
> Build an artistic community
> *Offer local people opportunities to curate and host events*
> ...


 
They *aim* to offer it. You're talking (your post #761) as if it's on offer/has been offered.
"Aim to" often covers a multitude of sins.


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## teuchter (Jun 28, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> They *aim* to offer it. You're talking (your post #761) as if it's on offer/has been offered.
> "Aim to" often covers a multitude of sins.


 
Guilty until proven innocent eh? 

Has _ANYONE_ moaning on this thread actually been in touch with them? Sent them an email to that email address and had their idea turned down or ignored?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 28, 2012)

teuchter said:


> Guilty until proven innocent eh?


 
Where have I found them "guilty"?
I haven't.

I've merely explained a device by which *some* providers get out of jail free after failing to, you know, provide.



> Has _ANYONE_ moaning on this thread actually been in touch with them? Sent them an email to that email address and had their idea turned down or ignored?


 
I e-mailed them asking about issue I mentioned earlier (where they were taking ideas from local people and having artists interpret them). I was polite, enquiring, and am still waiting for a reply a month later.
Still, that's probably just an oversight. Move along, nothing to see...


----------



## editor (Jun 28, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> I e-mailed them asking about issue I mentioned earlier (where they were taking ideas from local people and having artists interpret them). I was polite, enquiring, and am still waiting for a reply a month later.


So there goes teucher's big 'point'.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 28, 2012)

editor said:


> So there goes teucher's big 'point'.


 
TBF, I did use an e-mail address (I have several) with SW2 in it, so maybe I'm _infra dig_. It could just be I'm not "nu-Brixton" enough.


----------



## gaijingirl (Jun 28, 2012)

So I haven't really followed everything in this thread.. but back at the start I posted that a group called Create had taken a short lease on an old abandoned bank right by Tulse Hill station - also to run an arty-community-space.  When I walked past today they had opened it up to have a homework/study club for school students which is for free and staffed by qualified teachers. They also have free yoga classes and pot luck dinners.  Great community initiative I think.  It seems they're having problems getting people in/involved sadly.  I hope that changes.


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## boohoo (Jun 28, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> I e-mailed them asking about issue I mentioned earlier (where they were taking ideas from local people and having artists interpret them). I was polite, enquiring, and am still waiting for a reply a month later.
> Still, that's probably just an oversight. Move along, nothing to see...


 
Was that aimed at the Open Doors SW9 project or Brick Box?

I've emailed and was meant to meet them but impossible to get into the building and phone number was wrong or didn't work for me so missed that date. And I've been lazy about getting back to them to re-organise.


----------



## teuchter (Jun 28, 2012)

editor said:


> So there goes teucher's big 'point'.


 
It was a question, which VP answered, and the information contained in that answer will be assimilated into my level-headed assessment of Brick Box and their activities, which I try to base on actual evidence rather than speculation as much as I can.

I do realise this is not an approach you can really relate to though.


----------



## editor (Jun 28, 2012)

teuchter said:


> It was a question, which VP answered, and the information contained in that answer will be assimilated into my level-headed assessment of Brick Box and their activities, which I try to base on actual evidence rather than speculation as much as I can.


My opinion is based on evidence too.


----------



## snowy_again (Jun 28, 2012)

Through a certain prism though. Nothing wrong with that but it needs to be recognised.


----------



## Kanda (Jun 28, 2012)

This thread is like 'dirty looks across a room at school'. Both parties should try engage each other and communicate and see where it goes instead of this shit.


----------



## CH1 (Jun 29, 2012)

Kanda said:


> This thread is like 'dirty looks across a room at school'. Both parties should try engage each other and communicate and see where it goes instead of this shit.


That's a bit difficult when one side fraudulently uses the Heir to the Throne to tell the world (except Coldharbour Lane) how NEECE they are - and in need of MONEY!!  GRANTS!!!
All the time not even speaking (engaging perhaps - in "grant-speak") with anybody from "the local community" - which by the way also includes black people, alcoholics standing outside shops, black people standing outside shops ("hanging out") and bankrupt claimants standing outside William Hills ("hanging out").
What has this marvellous project got to offer THEM.
Notwithstanding that they want a grant just to be NEECE ignoring us in Coldharbour Lane!
I think you should consider your position - and wash your finger.


----------



## CH1 (Jun 29, 2012)

boohoo said:


> Do the people in social housing not spend this kind of money?
> The pub had closed. You are saying that people in social housing only like a certain type of thing? The meal wasn't for toffs. it was for those who choose to spend £40 on a meal. i'm sure there are men and women who live in social housing who spend that kind of money down the pub or in a bar at the weekend. Do we have to exclude certain things from the area because we (that is the outspoken of urban75) think it's not appropriate? What if it was a West Indian Supper club at £40 - would it be equally as wrong?


Boohoo - sorry to take issue - but do people in Social Housing _*want*_ to dress up as Edwardian floozies and take the piss out of the poor? For £40? Your world seems to have more to do with Jarndice and Jarndice than Coldharbour Lane!
I may be old fashioned but if I was a Metropolitan housing officer I wouldn't be that sympathetic if someone in my social housing needed to spend their rent money on fripperies such as this. Meanwhile spitting on the poor (who probably do actually pay their rent).
Get real:


----------



## Chilavert (Jun 29, 2012)

CH1 said:


> That's a bit difficult when one side fraudulently uses the Heir to the Throne to tell the world (except Coldharbour Lane) how NEECE they are - and in need of MONEY!!  GRANTS!!!
> All the time not even speaking (engaging perhaps - in "grant-speak") with anybody from "the local community" - which by the way also includes black people, alcoholics standing outside shops, black people standing outside shops ("hanging out") and bankrupt claimants standing outside William Hills ("hanging out").
> What has this marvellous project got to offer THEM.
> Notwithstanding that they want a grant just to be NEECE ignoring us in Coldharbour Lane!
> I think you should consider your position - and wash your finger.


Fraudulently? Some of the hyperbole in here.....


----------



## Badgers (Jun 29, 2012)

Kanda said:
			
		

> This thread is like 'dirty looks across a room at school'. Both parties should try engage each other and communicate and see where it goes instead of this shit.



See you in the playground at lunchtime you grass


----------



## boohoo (Jun 29, 2012)

CH1 said:


> Boohoo - sorry to take issue - but do people in Social Housing _*want*_ to dress up as Edwardian floozies and take the piss out of the poor? For £40? Your world seems to have more to do with Jarndice and Jarndice than Coldharbour Lane!
> I may be old fashioned but if I was a Metropolitan housing officer I wouldn't be that sympathetic if someone in my social housing needed to spend their rent money on fripperies such as this. Meanwhile spitting on the poor (who probably do actually pay their rent).
> Get real:View attachment 20629


 
Many different types of people live in social housing. Some of them might want to dress up in Edwardian clothes. Have you read the book Estates? The author talks about dealing with the presumptions that other people make about people in council estates because they came from social housing. Lets not be like that here.

Do we know that people would be spending their rent money on going to an event like that?

And the get real pic: what's that about? Is it meant to be the poor? I take it that it is not the poor in this country which becomes a difference subject altogether.


----------



## lighterthief (Jun 29, 2012)

CH1 said:


> Boohoo - sorry to take issue - but do people in Social Housing _*want*_ to dress up as Edwardian floozies and take the piss out of the poor? For £40? Your world seems to have more to do with Jarndice and Jarndice than Coldharbour Lane!
> I may be old fashioned but if I was a Metropolitan housing officer I wouldn't be that sympathetic if someone in my social housing needed to spend their rent money on fripperies such as this. Meanwhile spitting on the poor (who probably do actually pay their rent).
> Get real:View attachment 20629


Surely a troll


----------



## Maggot (Jun 29, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> Brickbox reminds me very much of the organisation that ran the 'pop-up' club Shunt in London.
> Here's an ecstatic review I found on the Internet:
> http://www.urban75.org/2009/04/shunt-club-london-bridge-absolutely.html





editor said:


> Did they claim to be a community group that likes to hang out where the 'street drinkers are and when the bins are kept'?
> Did they take over a traditional West Indian pub and start putting on exclusive £40 toff dinners?
> Did their premises face social housing?
> 
> No? Oh, I'll have to look elsewhere for your 'point', then.


Not only are they similar to Shunt. They are run by the same people.


----------



## RaverDrew (Jun 29, 2012)

Not in my front yard...


----------



## Ms T (Jun 29, 2012)

Maggot said:


> Not only are they similar to Shunt. They are run by the same people.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Jun 29, 2012)

http://www.eventbrite.com/event/3733515044

another 40 quid dinner tonight, aimed at those people with money who also find the expression "slippery nipple" humourous.


----------



## Kanda (Jun 29, 2012)

el-ahrairah said:


> http://www.eventbrite.com/event/3733515044
> 
> another 40 quid dinner tonight, aimed at those people with money who also find the expression "slippery nipple" humourous.


 
Yes we know. Look up there, where it was posted before ^^


----------



## teuchter (Jun 29, 2012)

Did anyone mention that it's £40 quid yet?


----------



## Badgers (Jun 29, 2012)

How much?


----------



## ddraig (Jun 29, 2012)

were there any events at shunt that were £40?


----------



## gabi (Jun 29, 2012)

Why is this place receiving lottery funding if they're charging £40 for a ticket to things like this? Surely that's self-funding...?


----------



## el-ahrairah (Jun 29, 2012)

Kanda said:


> Yes we know. Look up there, where it was posted before ^^


 
poo, i was hoping to burst the spot of rage and spatter the puss of ire all over this thread again...


----------



## el-ahrairah (Jun 29, 2012)

gabi said:


> Why is this place receiving lottery funding if they're charging £40 for a ticket to things like this? Surely that's self-funding...?


 
the ticketsare really 140 quid a pop but they've decided to subsidise the lower middle classes...


----------



## Badgers (Jun 29, 2012)

gabi said:
			
		

> Why is this place receiving lottery funding if they're charging £40 for a ticket to things like this? Surely that's self-funding...?



Sage question..


----------



## gabi (Jun 29, 2012)

Badgers said:


> Sage question..


 
Who would be the correct person/organisation to ask this question of? There's plenty of other initatives i can think of in brixton who could use a cash injection from the lottery.. maybe they're not aware that this is the kind of thing they're funding?


----------



## ddraig (Jun 29, 2012)

they'll only say that "this is a small part of what we do, we also have playgroups, community art and street people bonding sessions on a tuesday at noon" blahblah


----------



## teuchter (Jun 29, 2012)

ddraig said:


> were there any events at shunt that were £40?


 
Events at shunt were usually about £15-20 if I remember correctly. That didn't include dinner or drinks though.

If you went to shunt, had a few drinks there and bought a kebab on the way home, it wouldn't be very difficult to spend £40.


----------



## teuchter (Jun 29, 2012)

gabi said:


> Who would be the correct person/organisation to ask this question of? There's plenty of other initatives i can think of in brixton who could use a cash injection from the lottery.. maybe they're not aware that this is the kind of thing they're funding?


 
http://www.thebrickbox.co.uk/contact-us.html


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## ddraig (Jun 29, 2012)

i think he means regarding lottery funding being misused.

are you an artist or wanna be 'artist SLASH curator' teuchter?


----------



## teuchter (Jun 29, 2012)

ddraig said:


> are you an artist or wanna be 'artist SLASH curator' teuchter?


 
Why do you ask?


----------



## ddraig (Jun 29, 2012)

bang to rights


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## Gramsci (Jun 29, 2012)

Maggot said:


> Not only are they similar to Shunt. They are run by the same people.


 
And your point is?

Shunt was not part of BB community interest company. Shunt from review was a nightclub pure and simple. BB was set up as CIC so it is different issue.


----------



## snowy_again (Jun 29, 2012)

This is a bit like a snakes wedding isn't it?

The lottery money went to BITC not Brick Box. BITC will work to support organisations, like Brick Box. I've already posted the link to the BITC programme and to the specific Lambeth BITC representative. If you can think of deserving organisations perhaps you can direct them to him instead?


----------



## snowy_again (Jun 29, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> And your point is?
> 
> Shunt was not part of BB community interest company. Shunt from review was a nightclub pure and simple. BB was set up as CIC so it is different issue.


 
Shunt was and is a registered charity and a non profit company limited by guarantee.


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## Mrs Magpie (Jun 29, 2012)

gabi said:


> Why is this place receiving lottery funding if they're charging £40 for a ticket to things like this? Surely that's self-funding...?


Well quite, whereas getting funding for Arts projects on the estate a spit away is like trying to pick up mercury with a fork.


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## snowy_again (Jun 29, 2012)

#headexplode.gif#


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## editor (Jun 29, 2012)

snowy_again said:


> The lottery money went to BITC not Brick Box. BITC will work to support organisations, like Brick Box. I've already posted the link to the BITC programme and to the specific Lambeth BITC representative. If you can think of deserving organisations perhaps you can direct them to him instead?


I can't keep up with all these grants and handouts dished out to any well connected enterprise saying "community" enough times, but didn't the Brick Box trouser a wad of dosh from the Outer London fund?


> Brickbox helps regenerate Tooting Brickbox is a London-based community arts company that grew from a volunteer base. It aids regeneration through the arts by holding events from fashion shows, live music, performance art through to theatre productions and gallery exhibitions. It started operating in Tooting Market in April, having won a £115,000 grant from the Mayor’s Outer London Fund for a seven-month programme of events to transform the community space.
> http://www.drapersonline.com/people/mary-portas/act-now-to-save-high-street/5032128.article


And is this another, separate grant?


> The Brick Box has received £10,000 from the Team London Small Grants Fund to run The Hatch project.
> http://www.london.gov.uk/media/pres...e-calls-business-professionals-join-team-lond


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## snowy_again (Jun 29, 2012)

Yup, both are different grant programmes, coming from Boris (well not Boris himself by the Mayor of London's office). Although I'm sure Boris would like all that 'sexy food' bollocks.


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## snowy_again (Jun 29, 2012)

And for those grant programmes it's not nepotism that gets you the money; it's a competitive process through an application and assessment process. Officers make recommendations, elected/appointed officials make funding decisions.


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## snowy_again (Jun 29, 2012)

"The Hatch is recruiting a group of young business-minded volunteers to run a profitable internet café within Tooting Market in return for advice and ongoing guidance from successful local business professionals so they can develop their own entrepreneurial ideas.​The young Londoners taking part will also be able to bid for small pots of cash (up to £500) judged and awarded by The Hatch business gurus to help get their projects off the ground.  In addition, the Hatch recruits will use the internet café as a place to work with a local asylum group and other Tooting residents who are not currently comfortable using the internet." ​And other than the slightly sub SirLordAlanSugar approach of this press release, what bits do you object to? ​


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## quimcunx (Jun 29, 2012)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Well quite, whereas getting funding for Arts projects on the estate a spit away is like trying to pick up mercury with a fork.


 
I'm sure I remember from years back there were _lovely_ consultants who would help people make successful applications for lottery money.   Fuck knows how they decide what to give or not give money to*. 

As brick box seem to be successful why not go in there and ask them for tips? 

*this reminds me of not knowing wtf an english teacher wanted of me in a particular assignment which I'd failed once.  I asked my brother as he had been a particular favourite of hers followed his instructions and was top of the class! woo.


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## ddraig (Jun 29, 2012)

yeah there are people, including arty "community engagement" types that are very adept and used to milking funding who make even more lolly by offering others their form filling services

not that the odds are stacked against those more deserving, oh no!


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## Mrs Magpie (Jun 29, 2012)

quimcunx said:


> I'm sure I remember from years back there were _lovely_ consultants who would help people make successful applications for lottery money. Fuck knows how they decide what to give or not give money to*.


We have spread the net widely, we spend ages poring over the funders criteria and guidance notes, we tailor and tweak the project (which is based on what the tenants want) to fit the funding and it's knockback after knockback. We've had excellent guidance from a professional who helped us pro bono. It's not as if we're novices either. I have until recently identified loads of funders, put in applications and got the dosh. I'm also part of a completely different non-Brixton organisation which is punching above its weight, bringing in money, staying solvent and putting on big events for schoolchildren. 

Maybe I should apply in person, dressed like Cora 'Belle Elmore' Crippen, with my décolletage liberally smeared with foie gras.....


----------



## quimcunx (Jun 29, 2012)

I think you would suit that, MrsM.


----------



## snowy_again (Jun 29, 2012)

quimcunx said:


> Fuck knows how they decide what to give or not give money to*.


 
I did that for a decade. They run specific targeted funding themes, and then general 'open' programmes, where you identify a problem, and then propose a solution.

I have managed heaps of lottery grants in Brixton, none of which were advertised very well - it was nigh on impossible to get a local paper to run a good news story like that. So there's probably a lottery funded charity close to you all. 

None went to Brick Box types but then I didn't specifically work on arts funding.

Awards for All and BLF Reaching Communities will still accept applications to deliver community development work that use the arts to deliver it (e.g skills development, generally making your area a better place to live). Success rates are about 50% at the moment as lottery ticket sales have gone through the roof since the recession hit.

The main downside is that all funding assessment is now centralised to Newcastle / Birmingham as the Govt are always pushing down the operating costs of lottery distributors.

There are now only a handful of London staff to cover every borough. I used to look after a team of 8 staff just to assess and manage applications in South London.

LVAC and other support organisations will help people develop and deliver applications and projects and there are regular 'meet the funder' events where you can explain your plans and have someone help you develop them.


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## Gramsci (Jun 29, 2012)

snowy_again said:


> Shunt was and is a registered charity and a non profit company limited by guarantee.


 
According to Companies House Shunt Events Ltd (registration number 03731826) is a private company limited by guarantee which is still active. Which is the organisation the link said the two who set up BB were in.

I would guess that there may be charity and private company running alongside each other. With the Events section doing commercial work like the nightclub?

Maybe preferable to setting up CIC which is different kettle of fish to registered charity. Keeps commercial part separate from charitable community bit.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 29, 2012)

el-ahrairah said:


> http://www.eventbrite.com/event/3733515044
> 
> another 40 quid dinner tonight, aimed at those people with money who also find the expression "slippery nipple" humourous.


 
I gave a lot of thought last night/this morning (sitting in bed, in too much pain to sleep) to who would be attracted to "rude food", and concluded it's most probably ex-public schoolboys, and the occasional wingnut who thinks using a person as a platter is "decadent".


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## quimcunx (Jun 29, 2012)

http://www.charity-commission.gov.u...teredCharityNumber=1079471&SubsidiaryNumber=0


----------



## Gramsci (Jun 29, 2012)

quimcunx said:


> http://www.charity-commission.gov.u...teredCharityNumber=1079471&SubsidiaryNumber=0


 
ok looks like Shunt has two bits one a Charity the other a LTD company registered in Companies house.


----------



## Dan U (Jun 29, 2012)

teuchter said:


> Events at shunt were usually about £15-20 if I remember correctly. That didn't include dinner or drinks though.
> 
> If you went to shunt, had a few drinks there and bought a kebab on the way home, it wouldn't be very difficult to spend £40.


 
everytime i went to Shunt, it was £5. I went normally on a Thursday night and aside from a late DJ, you saw the same stuff.


----------



## Gramsci (Jun 29, 2012)

el-ahrairah said:


> http://www.eventbrite.com/event/3733515044
> 
> another 40 quid dinner tonight, aimed at those people with money who also find the expression "slippery nipple" humourous.


 
did they invite Prince Charles?


----------



## Dan U (Jun 29, 2012)

also, Shunt went on to take over a building on Bermondsey Street and ran a theatre production called Money for quite a while after it left the Vaults.

That was - and Shunt was as far as i could work out and i went regularly - a straight up performance based night out where you paid an admission price and/or spent money at the bar. I can't recall any community type waffle whatsoever - plenty of wanky abstact artiste bollocks - but nothing about the other stuff Brick Box are on about, so i'm not sure its a valid comparison really.

I miss Shunt at the Vaults as it goes. was always a random night out.


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## snowy_again (Jun 29, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> According to Companies House Shunt Events Ltd (registration number 03731826) is a private company limited by guarantee which is still active. Which is the organisation the link said the two who set up BB were in.
> 
> I would guess that there may be charity and private company running alongside each other. With the Events section doing commercial work like the nightclub?
> 
> Maybe preferable to setting up CIC which is different kettle of fish to registered charity. Keeps commercial part separate from charitable community bit.


 
Well that makes 3 companies in total (the limited by guarantee non profit, the charity and a for profit registered company). Which is why CICs were seen as the way forward - profits can be generated as long as a set % was nominated in advance as going back to further their social aims. And you don't have to process x3 sets of accounts / directors forms / bank accounts. I'm not saying I agree with the logic* but that was the argument. 

*I'm a director of a newish CiC - although nothing to do with Brixton - it hasn't solved any of the internal admin problems.


----------



## editor (Jun 29, 2012)

Dan U said:


> That was - and Shunt was as far as i could work out and i went regularly - a straight up performance based night out where you paid an admission price and/or spent money at the bar. I can't recall any community type waffle whatsoever - plenty of wanky abstact artiste bollocks - but nothing about the other stuff Brick Box are on about, so i'm not sure its a valid comparison really.


Indeed, and I certainly don't recall them going on about wanting to be where the 'street drinkers are and where the bins are kept' while charging £40 for hoity toity private supper club jollies.


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## teuchter (Jun 29, 2012)

Dan U said:


> also, Shunt went on to take over a building on Bermondsey Street and ran a theatre production called Money for quite a while after it left the Vaults.
> 
> That was - and Shunt was as far as i could work out and i went regularly - a straight up performance based night out where you paid an admission price and/or spent money at the bar. I can't recall any community type waffle whatsoever - plenty of wanky abstact artiste bollocks - but nothing about the other stuff Brick Box are on about, so i'm not sure its a valid comparison really.
> 
> I miss Shunt at the Vaults as it goes. was always a random night out.


 
I'm afraid your use of the phrase "random night out" means that the rest of your post is invalidated.


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## teuchter (Jun 29, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> I gave a lot of thought last night/this morning (sitting in bed, in too much pain to sleep) to who would be attracted to "rude food", and concluded it's most probably ex-public schoolboys, and the occasional wingnut who thinks using a person as a platter is "decadent".


 
And the type of people who post on the naked threads here.

Anyway, perhaps editor can sit at his window tonight and take photos of everyone going in to the Angel and then post them here and then everyone can sit in judgement of them from the comfort of their computer chairs.


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## ddraig (Jun 29, 2012)

teuchter said:


> And the type of people who post on the naked threads here.
> 
> Anyway, perhaps editor can sit at his window tonight and take photos of everyone going in to the Angel and then post them here and then everyone can sit in judgement of them from the comfort of their computer chairs.


very catty! again you are missing the point

and i see you haven't denied being an ARTISTE/CABARET ACT/CURATOR type


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## ViolentPanda (Jun 29, 2012)

teuchter said:


> And the type of people who post on the naked threads here.


 
That's rather a leap, I'd say, given that on the naked thread, people post a private picture in a limited environment (you do recall that the "nobbing and sobbing" forum isn't publicly-viewable, don't you?) and that we're talking about, with the event at the Angel, customers who won't be naked, but will be dining from the body of someone who is.



> Anyway, perhaps editor can sit at his window tonight and take photos of everyone going in to the Angel and then post them here and then everyone can sit in judgement of them from the comfort of their computer chairs.


 
Why on earth would he want to indulge your sordid masturbatory fantasies?


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## teuchter (Jun 29, 2012)

ddraig said:


> and i see you haven't denied being an ARTISTE/CABARET ACT/CURATOR type


 
You've not explained why you want to know or how it is relevant. My suspicion is that you have some prejudices to share with us.


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## ddraig (Jun 29, 2012)

no just what appears to be these types getting funding over others and then charging shitloads for non inclusive events.


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## Dan U (Jun 29, 2012)

teuchter said:


> I'm afraid your use of the phrase "random night out" means that the rest of your post is invalidated.



Why? 

Did you ever go? Random sums up shunt


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## editor (Jun 29, 2012)

Dan U said:
			
		

> Why?
> 
> Did you ever go? Random sums up shunt


Poor chap has no idea what he's talking about.


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## editor (Jun 29, 2012)

teuchter said:
			
		

> Anyway, perhaps editor can sit at his window tonight and take photos of everyone going in to the Angel and then post them here and then everyone can sit in judgement of them from the comfort of their computer chairs.


You are weird.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jun 29, 2012)

quimcunx said:


> *this reminds me of not knowing wtf an english teacher wanted of me in a particular assignment which I'd failed once. I asked my brother as he had been a particular favourite of hers followed his instructions and was *top of the class!* woo.


 
So what happened?

*ducks*


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## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Jun 29, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> ok looks like Shunt has two bits one a Charity the other a LTD company registered in Companies house.


 
It'll be the same thing I would think - most charities are private companies ltd by guarantee, it's a legal status specifically used for non-profits. Not a ltd company in the way that a profit making company would be.


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## snowy_again (Jun 29, 2012)

Exactly. Oxfam shops are the trading arm of the oxfam charity for example.


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## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Jun 29, 2012)

snowy_again said:


> Exactly. Oxfam shops are the trading arm of the oxfam charity for example.


 
That's slightly different. I'm not talking about trading arms (that tends to be the bigger charities). For an organisation like the one discussed here there aren't two different sides - the main body of the charity will be both a charity and the company ltd by guarantee. It's the legal structure in place to ensure the trustees aren't liable for any debts the charity runs up. I don't know how standard it is but I used to work for a charity that worked with other charities and they were all based on that structure.


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## snowy_again (Jun 29, 2012)

Sorry you're right and I'm wrong. The Co. Ltd by guarantee has a set of Mem & Arts and the charity has a constitution with the same objects. It's been a long day.


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## teuchter (Jun 29, 2012)

ddraig said:


> no just what appears to be these types getting funding over others and then charging shitloads for non inclusive events.


 
You've still not explained why you want to know whether I'm an _ARTISTE/CABARET ACT/CURATOR type._


----------



## teuchter (Jun 29, 2012)

Dan U said:


> Why?
> 
> Did you ever go? Random sums up shunt


 
I went several times. I was just having a go at your yoof-speak use of the word "random". Don't worry.


----------



## ddraig (Jun 29, 2012)

teuchter said:


> You've still not explained why you want to know whether I'm an _ARTISTE/CABARET ACT/CURATOR type._


i asked first!
please, take the floor...


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## teuchter (Jun 29, 2012)

I'm not going to tell you


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## ddraig (Jun 29, 2012)

see #837


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## teuchter (Jun 29, 2012)

I already saw it and it already didn't work.


----------



## CH1 (Jun 29, 2012)

boohoo said:


> Many different types of people live in social housing. Some of them might want to dress up in Edwardian clothes. Have you read the book Estates? The author talks about dealing with the presumptions that other people make about people in council estates because they came from social housing. Lets not be like that here.
> Do we know that people would be spending their rent money on going to an event like that?
> And the get real pic: what's that about? Is it meant to be the poor? I take it that it is not the poor in this country which becomes a difference subject altogether.


Hyperbole of course. And an East Anglian low church upbringing followed by Methodist boarding school. You cannot imagine how uppity that makes one!  
The pic if form an Italian film, the translated tilte of which is "Goodby Uncle Tom" I saw it at NFT some years ago in "Black History Month" The film is from the MONDO series and has a kind of Monty Python feel to it. Nearly caused a riot - as I am sure you may appreciate.
I was empathising with the alcoholic customers of William Hill who are so lumpen that they have nothing better to do than what they actually do do.
Meanwhile the trollops and hurray Henrys dressed as Edwardians in their gated "community pub" are stepping over them in order to get into their frolicsome bash. It's all in the film I assure you. Shall we ask them to do a screening of THAT - to their faces - and see if they fell moved in any way?

I just came from the Beehive where a couple of young women had golden angel wings on. Maybe pre-loading for tonight's Angel extravaganza?
As I walked past there were 4 security guards on the door - a very tall butch-looking woman in flak jacket type dress. And three short stocky males similarly attired. All white. Looked for all the world like a pole-dancing club on the Reeperbahn.

Do we really want this next to us? I certainly don't. In fact it really pisses me off.


----------



## CH1 (Jun 29, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> According to Companies House Shunt Events Ltd (registration number 03731826) is a private company limited by guarantee which is still active. Which is the organisation the link said the two who set up BB were in.
> I would guess that there may be charity and private company running alongside each other. With the Events section doing commercial work like the nightclub?


Bet they haven't filed their accounts yet! Gordon "relaxed" this requirement - you only have to do it every 2 years now for small companies - and not at all for the first 2.


----------



## CH1 (Jun 29, 2012)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> It'll be the same thing I would think - most charities are private companies ltd by guarantee, it's a legal status specifically used for non-profits. Not a ltd company in the way that a profit making company would be.


Many charities are limited companies. You have to pay companies house for the accounts - but the chaity commission publish the accounts for free.


----------



## teuchter (Jun 29, 2012)

CH1 said:


> Hyperbole of course. And an East Anglian low church upbringing followed by Methodist boarding school. You cannot imagine how uppity that makes one!
> The pic if form an Italian film, the translated tilte of which is "Goodby Uncle Tom" I saw it at NFT some years ago in "Black History Month" The film is from the MONDO series and has a kind of Monty Python feel to it. Nearly caused a riot - as I am sure you may appreciate.
> I was empathising with the alcoholic customers of William Hill who are so lumpen that they have nothing better to do than what they actually do do.
> Meanwhile the trollops and hurray Henrys dressed as Edwardians in their gated "community pub" are stepping over them in order to get into their frolicsome bash. It's all in the film I assure you. Shall we ask them to do a screening of THAT - to their faces - and see if they fell moved in any way?
> ...


 
Would you rather things like this just didn't exist at all? Or is it only because it's in your back yard that it pisses you off?


----------



## CH1 (Jun 29, 2012)

*FAOD:*
*I just came from the Beehive where a couple of young women had golden angel wings on. Maybe pre-loading for tonight's Angel extravaganza?*
* As I walked past the back entrance to the Angel there were 4 security guards on the door (obstructing the pavement in fact) - a very tall butch-looking woman in flak jacket type dress. And three short stocky males similarly attired. All white. Looked for all the world like a pole-dancing club on the Reeperbahn.*

* Do we really want this next to us? I certainly don't. In fact it really pisses me off.*


----------



## CH1 (Jun 29, 2012)

teuchter said:


> Would you rather things like this just didn't exist at all? Or is it only because it's in your back yard that it pisses you off?


I would rather they did not exist at all. And if they did exist that they were in a mutually beneficial relationship with the Bullingdon Club at Oxford University.
In fact I think what Brixton needs is something more like the Temperance Billiard Hall (now the London Hotel for homeless people).
And yes I have had one pint of Ruddles at the Beehive for £1.85
And I was thinking - God I must emigrate. This country is finished.
People don't respect anything or anybody anymore.
If I sold my house and bought one in Kumasi I could live on an income of £35,000 p.a. like a king - nay a God.
Here I am viewed as an inconvenient ex-Councillor and my GP wants me on drugs (lithium).
And I have an income of £4,000 p.a.
Not much of a choice is it?
The only thing holding me back is my annual Proms season ticket!


----------



## editor (Jun 30, 2012)

We could hear noises coming from behind the blacked-out windows of the exclusive event taking place tonight, so we thought we'd pop in to see what was going on. Security guard wouldn't let us in to have a look because it was a private affair. Not for the likes of us.

This bit of paper stuck to the door was the only thing advertising the event.


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## Badgers (Jun 30, 2012)

?/10


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## Dan U (Jun 30, 2012)

CH1 said:


> Bet they haven't filed their accounts yet! Gordon "relaxed" this requirement - you only have to do it every 2 years now for small companies - and not at all for the first 2.



Are you sure that's true? I file mine each year and I am a small company


----------



## Chilavert (Jun 30, 2012)

editor said:


> Security guard wouldn't let us in to have a look because it was a private affair. Not for the likes of us.


Or perhaps it was because you hadn't spent £40 on a ticket.


----------



## CH1 (Jun 30, 2012)

Dan U said:


> Are you sure that's true? I file mine each year and I am a small company


Your accountant is obviously an honest man - not a devious bastard!


----------



## CH1 (Jun 30, 2012)

Chilavert said:


> Or perhaps it was because you hadn't spent £40 on a ticket.


Did YOU go in? If so please give us the first review. As pants the hart for cooling streams - thus I pant with bated breath!


----------



## CH1 (Jun 30, 2012)

CH1 said:


> If I sold my house and bought one in Kumasi I could live on an income of £35,000 p.a. like a king


For any doubters: 4 bedroom 4 bathroom house (own well)

$159,000 - that's about £100,000 (or would be if Barclays weren't bringing the UK to its knees)

OR how about this one for $135,000 with built-in solar cells (eat yr heart out "Brixton Green")

Of course if too far from the centre of town a non-driver such as myself would have to get an old banger and employer a driver. But HE could double-up as a butler: cooking breakfast, doing the ironing, that sort of thing. It's a whole new world out there!


----------



## RaverDrew (Jun 30, 2012)

editor said:


> We could hear noises coming from behind the blacked-out windows of the exclusive event taking place tonight, so we thought we'd pop in to see what was going on. Security guard wouldn't let us in to have a look because it was a private affair. Not for the likes of us.
> 
> This bit of paper stuck to the door was the only thing advertising the event.
> 
> View attachment 20661


 
That piece of paper has been there since last week tbf, so not necessarily just to do with last night's event.


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Jun 30, 2012)

CH1 said:


> The pic if form an Italian film, the translated tilte of which is "Goodby Uncle Tom" I saw it at NFT some years ago in "Black History Month" The film is from the MONDO series and has a kind of Monty Python feel to it.


 
You mentioned this film before and I was completely baffled because I thought it was the film adaptation of this book with John Thaw as the eponymous hero. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodnight_Mister_Tom


----------



## CH1 (Jun 30, 2012)

Mrs Magpie said:


> You mentioned this film before and I was completely baffled because I thought it was the film adaptation of this book with John Thaw as the eponymous hero.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodnight_Mister_Tom


Seems to be a big difference between Mister and Uncle - especially in places like Georgia!


----------



## Chilavert (Jun 30, 2012)

CH1 said:


> Did YOU go in? If so please give us the first review. As pants the hart for cooling streams - thus I pant with bated breath!


No I didn't go, it really isn't my sort of thing, whether it was free, £4 or £40.

A couple of pints in the Elm Park Tavern was the limit of my Friday ambitions.


----------



## Crispy (Jun 30, 2012)

ddraig said:


> i asked first!
> please, take the floor...


Sorry to spoil your fun, teuchter.
He's not.


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## ddraig (Jun 30, 2012)

pah! the tease, ta


----------



## editor (Jun 30, 2012)

So did anyone go last night and "get warmed up with canapés off a peachy bottomed lady"?


----------



## teuchter (Jun 30, 2012)

Crispy said:


> Sorry to spoil your fun, teuchter.


 
Once a mod, always a mod


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jun 30, 2012)

CH1 said:


> *FAOD:*
> *I just came from the Beehive where a couple of young women had golden angel wings on. Maybe pre-loading for tonight's Angel extravaganza?*
> * As I walked past the back entrance to the Angel there were 4 security guards on the door (obstructing the pavement in fact) - a very tall butch-looking woman in flak jacket type dress. And three short stocky males similarly attired. All white. Looked for all the world like a pole-dancing club on the Reeperbahn.*
> 
> * Do we really want this next to us? I certainly don't. In fact it really pisses me off.*


 
You should have got a picture


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jun 30, 2012)

editor said:


> View attachment 20661


 
Did a 5-year-old write that?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jun 30, 2012)

Chilavert said:


> No I didn't go, it really isn't my sort of thing, whether it was free, £4 or £40.
> 
> A couple of pints in the Elm Park Tavern was the limit of my Friday ambitions.


 
I was in there yesterday.

How long is the refurb taking?


----------



## Gramsci (Jun 30, 2012)

CH1 said:


> Bet they haven't filed their accounts yet! Gordon "relaxed" this requirement - you only have to do it every 2 years now for small companies - and not at all for the first 2.


 
Well I am getting totally confused with all this. From what Snowy_again says you can be a Charity and a Ltd company at the same time. Using one or the other depending on the circumstances. Call me simple minded but I thought a charity and a Ltd company were separate for good reason.

And as far as Im concerned CIC just muddy the waters even more.


----------



## Gramsci (Jun 30, 2012)

snowy_again said:


> "The Hatch is recruiting a group of young business-minded volunteers to run a profitable internet café within Tooting Market in return for advice and ongoing guidance from successful local business professionals so they can develop their own entrepreneurial ideas.​The young Londoners taking part will also be able to bid for small pots of cash (up to £500) judged and awarded by The Hatch business gurus to help get their projects off the ground. In addition, the Hatch recruits will use the internet café as a place to work with a local asylum group and other Tooting residents who are not currently comfortable using the internet." ​And other than the slightly sub SirLordAlanSugar approach of this press release, what bits do you object to? ​


 
All of it. Its not sub Alan Sugar it is 100% Alan Sugar.

Ive said before on this thread that there is myth that entrepreuneurs will get us out of the recession. Total economic bollox.

I see as a sideline they will help the odd asylum seeker use the internet. More bollox. Im at moment sitting in my friendly Eritrean intenet cafe. As my computer has decided to not work. Asylum seekers are not stupid they know how to do emails. What they need is the immigration people off there backs. Not some wanky charity.

As this thread continues im increasingly thinking the charity sector is about learning how to get grants to give oneself a job. Quite an art. Very entrepreuneurial.


----------



## Gramsci (Jun 30, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> I gave a lot of thought last night/this morning (sitting in bed, in too much pain to sleep) to who would be attracted to "rude food", and concluded it's most probably ex-public schoolboys, and the occasional wingnut who thinks using a person as a platter is "decadent".


 
I was thinking of eating off the naked body of Cheryl Cole this morning . Have me and Rihanna down to BB like a shot.


----------



## Gramsci (Jun 30, 2012)

edit


----------



## Gramsci (Jun 30, 2012)

CH1 said:


> Hyperbole of course. And an East Anglian low church upbringing followed by Methodist boarding school. You cannot imagine how uppity that makes one!
> The pic if form an Italian film, the translated tilte of which is "Goodby Uncle Tom" I saw it at NFT some years ago in "Black History Month" The film is from the MONDO series and has a kind of Monty Python feel to it. Nearly caused a riot - as I am sure you may appreciate.
> quote]


 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodbye_Uncle_Tom

film shown here:


Italian Mondo films were interesting as they were B movies with a lot off gratuitous sex and violence. But also reflected the left wing spirit of times.

Bit much for many foreign censors.

I did not know this one. Mondo films are real dated oddity know.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 30, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> I was thinking of eating off the naked body of Cheryl Cole this morning . Have me and Rihanna down to BB like a shot.


 
It's one thing doing it in the privacy of your own home  , it's another thing doing it in front of other people!


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Jun 30, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> Well I am getting totally confused with all this. From what Snowy_again says you can be a Charity and a Ltd company at the same time. Using one or the other depending on the circumstances. Call me simple minded but I thought a charity and a Ltd company were separate for good reason.
> 
> And as far as Im concerned CIC just muddy the waters even more.


 
Yes - like I say it's not only 'can be' but generally are as far as I know. All 'limited' means is that the owners (or trustees in the case of a charity) are kept separate from the debts. A for profit company (what most people think of as a limited company) will be 'limited by share' but a charity will be 'limited by guarantee' which is a different legal status. It's not really about using one or the other at different times, they're both all the time. 

Basically Brickbox or whatever they're called won't have two different parts which was there the very exciting business of organisational legal structures came in iirc. 

CIC's I don't know too much about though.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Jun 30, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> As this thread continues im increasingly thinking the charity sector is about learning how to get grants to give oneself a job. Quite an art. Very entrepreuneurial.


 
This is definitely true (and part of the long list of reasons why I don't work in the charity sector any more). Where I worked we had someone working full time on grant applications (a senior member of staff as well). It's going to be very hard for any locally based charity to compete against that.


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Jun 30, 2012)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> It's going to be very hard for any locally based charity to compete against that.


To be honest I think the people who sift through applications get bored of the bread and butter stuff that local voluntary organisations want and need so when some ingénue in a corset pops up and says breathily "Let them eat cake....off my derrière...for forty quid" it grabs their attention


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Jun 30, 2012)

I can't compete in my sensible underwear and useful community vandal-proof art projects.


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## snowy_again (Jun 30, 2012)

Mrs Magpie said:


> To be honest I think the people who sift through applications get bored of the bread and butter stuff that local voluntary organisations want and need so when some ingénue in a corset pops up and says breathily "Let them eat cake....off my derrière...for forty quid" it grabs their attention



lots of posts to reply to, and they merit a response sent from a computer & not a phone.

In response to your question about normal grants for everday work; they made up about 75% of my grant making experience, and are recognised as the heart of the sector. It used to be said that if a project was set up and proved to be effective then the LOcal Authority would pick it up and commision it. That won't happen so much nowadays. 


But with inevitably limited money grant makers are often in a quandry; do you spend all the money meeting existing needs and not necessarily resolving the root cause or do you spend it on 'innovative' projects which try new ways of working. 

As for the charity / third / voluntary sector /civil society it's difficult to make sweeping generalsations about self job creation. There are 160000+ registered charities in England and Wales. Plus tens of thousands more Co Ltd by Guarantee who aren't rgistered charities but who work solely for charitable purposes, plus many otherconstituted and non constituted groups.

Only a small % of charities are large national organisations, although lately they are getting bigger and larger the more they deliver services on behalf of the state in the third sector.

Most charities are small locally managed and run. They meet 'neds' that aren't even recognsed yet by the state, they' can be much more in touch with how to serve people effectively. They are however slow to be legally set up and occasionally burdensome due to regulation. Nu Labour and the coalition have been chopping away at the charity commsion for years, and they have made themselves unpopular with the Esatablishment their attempts to make charities like Eton act more charitably.

Lastly CICs aren't really that new, but are more a reinvention of a Victorian model. I fully agree that it's a flawed idea that they are the answer; they add more competition to the already limited funds. But if you want to 'spin off'' bits if state provision they encourage people to do it. Think libaries run by volunteers, the isle of Wight volunteer run bus service. 

I don't agree with it unless it allows user led organisations to be resourced to take on service delivery (No decision about me without me etc.).


----------



## Maggot (Jul 1, 2012)

Maggot said:


> Not only are they similar to Shunt. They are run by the same people.





Gramsci said:


> And your point is?


I'm not making a point, I'm stating a fact.


----------



## Chilavert (Jul 1, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> I was in there yesterday.
> 
> How long is the refurb taking?


I thought it was finished!

Apologies for the off-topic posts, I'm blaming Minnie...


----------



## CH1 (Jul 1, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodbye_Uncle_Tom
> film shown here:
> 
> Italian Mondo films were interesting as they were B movies with a lot off gratuitous sex and violence. But also reflected the left wing spirit of times.
> ...



Good though, isn't it? Certainly makes the point powerfully.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 1, 2012)

Chilavert said:


> I thought it was finished!
> 
> Apologies for the off-topic posts, I'm blaming Minnie...


 
I thought they were moving loos downstairs

Apologies for the off-topic posts


----------



## teuchter (Jul 1, 2012)

By the way I was in Peckham last night and it was HIPSTERGEDDON due to the opening of the bar on the carpark and loads more people showed up than could fit in so all the "proper community pubs" nearby were full of people with haircuts enjoying the decor in an ironic way. The bar staff didn't know what had hit them. Editor would have blown a gasket.


----------



## editor (Jul 1, 2012)

teuchter said:


> By the way I was in Peckham last night and it was HIPSTERGEDDON due to the opening of the bar on the carpark and loads more people showed up than could fit in so all the "proper community pubs" nearby were full of people with haircuts enjoying the decor in an ironic way. The bar staff didn't know what had hit them. Editor would have blown a gasket.


As usual, you miss the point by a country mile.

The Peckham Bold Tendencies project is *FREE* to all, and the cafe offers affordable prices (e.g. Grilled Turkish Peppers, Home Made Yogurt, Nigella Seeds... £4.50).

And if local 'proper community pubs' enjoyed a surge in custom as a result, then that's great news.


----------



## boohoo (Jul 1, 2012)

editor said:


> As usual, you miss the point by a country mile.
> 
> The Peckham Bold Tendencies project is *FREE* to all, and the cafe offers affordable prices. And if 'proper community pubs' enjoy a surge in custom as a result, then that's great news.


 
I think Teuchter was saying it was full of hipsters and you wouldn't like it.


----------



## editor (Jul 1, 2012)

boohoo said:


> I think Teuchter was saying it was full of hipsters and you wouldn't like it.


I'd rather he didn't try and tell me what I think about anything because he clearly hasn't a fucking clue. I'll be surprised if he even knows what a hipster looks like.


----------



## Maggot (Jul 1, 2012)

editor said:


> I'd rather he didn't try and tell me what I think about anything because he clearly hasn't a fucking clue. I'll be surprised if he even knows what a hipster looks like.


What does a Hipster look like,  o wise one?


----------



## CH1 (Jul 1, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> Well I am getting totally confused with all this. From what Snowy_again says you can be a Charity and a Ltd company at the same time. Using one or the other depending on the circumstances. Call me simple minded but I thought a charity and a Ltd company were separate for good reason.
> 
> And as far as Im concerned CIC just muddy the waters even more.


Normally charities are companies Limited by Guarantee. All members are shareholders and liable to pay 25p in the event of bankruptcy.
Charities, whilst being Limited by Guarantee do not normally put "Ltd" in their title.

I think there is some Gilbert and Sullivan on at the Proms this year - shall I check?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 1, 2012)

Maggot said:


> What does a Hipster look like, o wise one?


 
Yer mum, apparently.


----------



## Yelkcub (Jul 1, 2012)

Maggot said:


> What does a Hipster look like,  o wise one?


Like someone elses subculture


----------



## Gramsci (Jul 1, 2012)

snowy_again said:


> lots of posts to reply to, and they merit a response sent from a computer & not a phone.
> 
> 
> As for the charity / third / voluntary sector /civil society it's difficult to make sweeping generalsations about self job creation. There are 160000+ registered charities in England and Wales. Plus tens of thousands more Co Ltd by Guarantee who aren't rgistered charities but who work solely for charitable purposes, plus many otherconstituted and non constituted groups.
> ...


 
Thanks for your ( and Monkeygrinders Organ) informative posts.

I do have a friend who manages small charity for refugees. He does everything from applications to general mge. The only full time worker. A lot of people in the charity/ voluntary sector do a lot of good work that the Council/ State cannot or do not want to do.

So I know from him there is a tension in looking after the needs of those one was set up to help and the pressures from the State. Especially in case of refugees/ asylum seekers.

It has been increasingly difficult for charities to retain there independence and stick up for people when the last and this government are pressuring the sector to run services for the Government.

Also some of the way that local government - The Mayor funds some of the projects that have been mentioned here- sets up funding is imo highly ideological. Funding to encourage "entrepreneurial" values is a case in point.

Also Aristocrats like Charlie setting up there own charitable exercises is all very well but its in reality old school top down Victorian philanthropy. Its hit or miss. Some of the stuff Princes Trust may be useful but its all down to him like some Russian Oligarch donating to good causes.Business in the Community is a case in point. Given a trendy veneer by Brick Box.


----------



## editor (Jul 1, 2012)

Maggot said:


> What does a Hipster look like, o wise one?


Don't you know either?


----------



## Maggot (Jul 2, 2012)

editor said:


> Don't you know either?


Not really, as I've never met anyone who's admitted to being one.


----------



## Crispy (Jul 2, 2012)

Maggot said:


> What does a Hipster look like, o wise one?


They're under the age of 30 and they dress funny and they have silly haircuts. It's not natural.


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Jul 2, 2012)

Crispy said:


> They're under the age of 30 and they dress funny and they have silly haircuts. It's not natural.


Quite often very affected voices too. They try to sound uninterested in stuff that isn't in their narrow field of interest and affect an air of ennui. In my experience they don't much care for middle-aged women doing their shopping and speak about them in disparaging terms as if they can't be heard.


----------



## editor (Jul 2, 2012)

Crispy said:


> They're under the age of 30 and they dress funny and they have silly haircuts. It's not natural.


They're not all under 30, you know.
An above average* disposable income often comes into the equation too.



> Hipster is a term frequently used to refer to a subculture of young, recently settled urban middle class adults and older teenagers.
> 
> Hipster culture has been described as a "mutating, trans-Atlantic melting pot of styles, tastes and behavior." Christian Lorentzen of Time Out New York argues that "hipsterism fetishizes the authentic" elements of all of the "fringe movements of the postwar era—beat, hippie, punk, even grunge," and draws on the "cultural stores of every unmelted ethnicity," and "regurgitates it with a winking inauthenticity."
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hipster_(contemporary_subculture)


 
(*compared to the area they're often strutting around in)


----------



## gabi (Jul 2, 2012)

Maggot said:


> What does a Hipster look like, o wise one?


----------



## DietCokeGirl (Jul 2, 2012)




----------



## Greebo (Jul 2, 2012)

gabi said:


>


Eris, Athene, and Ares, I saw two hipsters like that right at the front of the top of a double decker a couple of weeks ago - poncey hair, tight turn up jeans, permabronzed, and OMFG the shoes! I didn't realise there were shoes which conspicuously labelled the wearer in rhyming slang. "Hunt", if you must know.


----------



## gabi (Jul 2, 2012)

Greebo said:


> Eris, Athene, and Ares, I saw two hipsters like that right at the front of the top of a double decker a couple of weeks ago - poncey hair, tight turn up jeans, permabronzed, and OMFG the shoes! I didn't realise there were shoes which conspicuously labelled the wearer in rhyming slang. "Hunt", if you must know.


----------



## editor (Jul 2, 2012)

gabi said:


>


 
I saw that actor in the Ritzy last week. 
But he doesn't look like that in real life, which is a relief.

Nathan Barley was an awesome and truly prophetic series.


----------



## editor (Jul 2, 2012)

"Matt you rapist! How's it gaping?!"


----------



## teuchter (Jul 2, 2012)

editor said:


> But he doesn't look like that in real life, which is a relief.


 
Why is it a relief?


----------



## editor (Jul 2, 2012)

teuchter said:


> Why is it a relief?


Watching the series might give you an idea.


----------



## teuchter (Jul 2, 2012)

editor said:


> Watching the series might give you an idea.


 
If someone dresses like that, does it mean they behave like the people in the series?


----------



## snowy_again (Jul 2, 2012)

Nathan's more of a Hoxton internet bubble character though isn't he?

The Reverend is most likely to have moved to Brixton. Or have moved _back_ to Wild West Norwood.


----------



## Chilavert (Jul 2, 2012)

editor said:


> "Matt you rapist! How's it gaping?!"



 Thir-fucking-teen!

Technically a Polanski.


----------



## tommers (Jul 2, 2012)

http://www.tvgohome.com/


----------



## editor (Jul 2, 2012)

teuchter said:


> If someone dresses like that, does it mean they behave like the people in the series?


I'd love to try and explain humour to you, but I've really got better things to do. Here's a geek pie for you.


----------



## gabi (Jul 2, 2012)

Rosie from brickbox did reply to me re the lottery money. she said it's fine for me to post it up and she's aware of this thread - maybe she'll post on it herself..

(she's also said that line about the street drinkers/where the bins are kept is a bit shit and is going)



> Many thanks for getting in touch and for your questions. The BBC news piece misled a few people so I'll explain this and also what The Brick Box is trying to do.
> 
> We were visited by Prince Charles the other week because we had some free business advice from a scheme called Business in the Community, of which he is the patron. It was the scheme that received the funding in order to role out BitC across the company. We haven't ever received any cash funding from the scheme, rather 'in kind' support in the form of a team away day to help us formulate a strategic plan. The news piece did make it sound like we have got five million pounds of funding though so it's an easy assumption to make!
> 
> ...


 
So no funding at all from the lottery?


----------



## editor (Jul 2, 2012)

gabi said:


> So no funding at all from the lottery?


As far as I can work out, they've had at least £125k funding from various grants. There's probably more - maybe you should reply and ask her to clarify what funding they have received.


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Jul 2, 2012)

I was under the impression that they were ultimately benefiting from a £4.8 million lottery grant channelled via the Business Connectors scheme (obviously they weren't the only beneficiaries) and that's why Prince Charles was visiting them.


----------



## tommers (Jul 2, 2012)

She sounds nice.


----------



## editor (Jul 2, 2012)

I imagine some of the local community might have liked to have seen Prince Charles. Shame they weren't invited.


----------



## BrickBoxer (Jul 2, 2012)

Thanks for posting Gabi.

And just to add, I am well aware that a 40 pound ticket isn't affordable for everyone so that particular element of the night is indeed not inclusive in terms of price. However, it is a response to a local group of people who requested to use the space for their new business and it proves popular with a specific group in Brixton. And supper club or not, the events are ALWAYS either 5 pound or free to get in.
The bit on the website about forgotten spaces wasn't meant to refer to Brixton as a bad or forgotten place but rather meant to refer to working in non-traditional spaces which aren't theatres, galleries, or designated for arts, ie. a derelict pub or ailing market. But I see how it can come across the wrong way and I'd hate to offend any one who thinks it's a comment on Brixton so I will defintely change this. 
I can't stress how hard we are working to make this opportunity work for as many people as possible. We've already been able to work with local and not local people, artists, and groups, provide free events and training, and have had great feedback so I'm really proud of that. Obviously there's lots of work still to do though, and there always will be!
And finally I'd like to reiterate that if anyone would like to come down, speak to me or my colleagues, and be involved in anyway we can facilitate, please do get in touch on hello@thebrickbox.co.uk
Thank you,
Rosie


----------



## BrickBoxer (Jul 2, 2012)

editor said:


> I imagine some of the local community might have liked to have seen Prince Charles. Shame they weren't invited.


 
We were allowed to invite about 30 people to this event and over 80% of them live locally.


----------



## editor (Jul 2, 2012)

BrickBoxer said:


> We were allowed to invite about 30 people to this event and over 80% of them live locally.


Just your friends then?


----------



## editor (Jul 2, 2012)

BrickBoxer said:


> I can't stress how hard we are working to make this opportunity work for as many people as possible. We've already been able to work with local and not local people, artists, and groups, provide free events and training, and have had great feedback so I'm really proud of that. Obviously there's lots of work still to do though, and there always will be!


Hi Rosie. Good to have you posting here.

Could you tell me why the windows are kept permanently blacked out (apart from HRH visits, of course) and why events are never advertised locally?

Surely you must be able to work out how that looks to the local community?


----------



## gabi (Jul 2, 2012)

Yeh she seems ok to me. she's answered my question re the lottery/prince charles' visit anyway.... just a shit beeb piece, as per usual..

not sure an aggresive response to her appearance on this site is quite the right way to get answers btw (not lookin at anyone)


----------



## snowy_again (Jul 2, 2012)

editor said:


> As far as I can work out, they've had at least £125k funding from various grants. There's probably more - maybe you should reply and ask her to clarify what funding they have received.


 
Various grants does not equal Lottery grants.

You've already pointed out the two Mayor's Fund grants - which aren't the same organisation. The BLF (Big Lottery Fund) and Brick Box doesn't come up with any google hits, other than the BITC grant (not to Brick Box) and BB's involvement in being a case study as to the support the BITC can give. 

Grants are restricted funds to deliver agreed outputs (ie. events, workshops) and outcomes (things (and difference). You can't suddenly take the grant from a Tooting based project and then spend it in Brick Box in Brixton.


----------



## BrickBoxer (Jul 2, 2012)

editor said:


> Hi Rosie. Good to have you posting here.
> 
> Could you tell me why the windows are kept permanently blacked out (apart from HRH visits, of course) and why events are never advertised locally?
> 
> Surely you must be able to work out how that looks to the local community?


 
Hello,

Re. the windows, they are boarded at the moment just to make the place doubly secure. They are big old panes of glass, and we don't have enough money to open all the time and have a permenant presence in the building so we made a decision that boarding them would help reduce our security costs and therefore ticket prices. Hopefully this will be able to change though. For HRH visit, the organisers requested we take them off for the morning.

Re. advertising events, we usually do this through our website, and other online presences. We also create hard copies and flyer locally sometimes but with really tight budgets we don't print new flyers for all events. Going forwards, all events should be in the South London Press. But actually I think word of mouth often works best and on Saturday night I was on the door for much of it, asking people coming past if they would like to come in, saying they can look round for free and then give us some money if they want to stay. Its by no means a comprehensive marketing strategy but I'm working on it. If there are places for advertising events that you think I should be focusing on, please do share your thoughts.

Thanks.


----------



## BrickBoxer (Jul 2, 2012)

editor said:


> Just your friends then?


 
No, we were setting up for a free exhibition that weekend anyway so people were invited if they were involved in that or current Brick Box projects. So we had several volunteers, artists, and partnership organisations like RoadWorks Media and 198 Gallery.

Incidentally, many of these people I do consider to be my friends now - I have much respect and time for so many Brick Box collaborators - but that wasn't why they were invited.


----------



## editor (Jul 2, 2012)

BrickBoxer said:


> Its by no means a comprehensive marketing strategy but I'm working on it. If there are places for advertising events that you think I should be focusing on, please do share your thoughts.


Why not just put up a poster in the window? It wouldn't cost anything. Or you could put posters in the foyers of the Barrier Block opposite.

As it is, people might - not unreasonably - assume that by putting on expensive, barely -advertised events behind blackened out windows you're only really interested in attracting your 'in the know' friends rather than the actual community around you.

That would be fine for a private club of course, but seeing as the Brick Box's stated ethos is all about making the venue "freely accessible to a diverse audience, many of whom would traditionally self-exclude from arts experiences," it does seem an odd way to be going about things.


----------



## BrickBoxer (Jul 2, 2012)

Absolutely, I will do, thanks very much. 

Also, I'd like to stress again that when we do charge entry to the venue, it is a maximum of 5 pounds in order to cover our security, staff and utility/cleaning costs.


----------



## teuchter (Jul 2, 2012)

Brickboxer - for clarity -

- You are recieving no grant funding for the ex-Angel at the moment (apart from the Business in the Community thing)
- On each of the £40 nights it's been possible to get in for £5 max if you don't want to eat

is that right?


----------



## BrickBoxer (Jul 2, 2012)

teuchter said:


> Brickboxer - for clarity -
> 
> - You are recieving no grant funding for the ex-Angel at the moment (apart from the Business in the Community thing)
> - On each of the £40 nights it's been possible to get in for £5 max if you don't want to eat
> ...


 
Hi there teuchter, 

 - Yes, that's correct. And the Business in the Community thing isn't even funding, it was a free team away day.
- Yes, correct again. We have never charged more than 5 pounds for entry.

Thanks for asking.


----------



## CH1 (Jul 2, 2012)

BrickBoxer said:


> Hi there teuchter,
> - Yes, that's correct. And the Business in the Community thing isn't even funding, it was a free team away day.
> - Yes, correct again. We have never charged more than 5 pounds for entry.
> Thanks for asking.


Brickboxer sounds OK - but I still think those supper club events send out all the wrong signals locally.
Why not make it more workerist? Batle Ship Potomkin suppers for example? Why this upstairs down stairs fixation? Dowton Abbey etc? Some of us came to Brixton to get away from all that crap. Having people bussed in from Hoxton and Chelsea to rub my nose in it is not my idea of comradely behaviour.
Peter Hain would not have put up with that in the Apartheid cricket days.
Even bondage policewomen is unacceptable in Brixton.
In Chicago the Mayor's city officials crack down on violations of community values.
BrickBox wouldn't last 5 minutes in Chicago carrying on like they currently are!!!!


----------



## teuchter (Jul 2, 2012)

BrickBoxer said:


> Hi there teuchter,
> 
> - Yes, that's correct. And the Business in the Community thing isn't even funding, it was a free team away day.
> - Yes, correct again. We have never charged more than 5 pounds for entry.
> ...


 
Ok. Well I think your posts answer a lot of the criticism that's been presented on this thread.

If you've read the whole thread you'll have seen that there are quite a few people with a tendency towards knee-jerk reactions and assuming the worst wherever there is a bit of an information vacuum. It's a shame you didn't respond a bit earlier - were you unaware of the discussion going on here?

I think it's in your best interests to keep an eye on what people are saying on urban75, because if you don't, there's a danger that certain untruths will become accepted fact, and also because there are some things you might do with good intentions but which may be interpreted a certain way by some people, and it will be useful for you to be aware of that. The text on the website about the bins/street drinkers etc being a case in point.

Urban75 comes up pretty high in search results about Brixton so it may well be that people looking up info about your project will initially come here rather than to your own website.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 2, 2012)

Maggot said:


> Not really, as I've never met anyone who's admitted to being one.


 
Hipsters are like blisters - you only recognise one when it irritates you.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 2, 2012)

Crispy said:


> *They're under the age of 30* and they dress funny and they have silly haircuts. It's not natural.


 
So they say.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 2, 2012)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Quite often very affected voices too. They try to sound uninterested in stuff that isn't in their narrow field of interest and affect an air of ennui. In my experience they don't much care for middle-aged women doing their shopping and speak about them in disparaging terms as if they can't be heard.


 
So, they're like superannuated middle-class teenagers, then?


----------



## editor (Jul 2, 2012)

teuchter said:


> It's a shame you didn't respond a bit earlier - were you unaware of the discussion going on here?


I'd be utterly amazed if they _didn't_, especially seeing as they follow us on Twitter and this discussion has been going on for months. And, as you say, it appears at the top for search engine results. 

And although you clearly have your blunt axe to grind here, this site has actually generally been very supportive of new businesses, and many of criticisms about Brick Box remain very valid indeed.


----------



## snowy_again (Jul 2, 2012)

Do you want to list them then, that would help Bboxer address them for you:

a) awareness of what's going on inside BB to the local community
b) the type of events that go on and the cost involved 
c) how the venue can be used by other people outside of the BB network 
d) the funding arrangements - it seems like that's been answered, but perhaps a clarification would help? 

I'm sure there's more you can add to...


----------



## Maggot (Jul 2, 2012)

editor said:


> I imagine some of the local community might have liked to have seen Prince Charles. Shame they weren't invited.





BrickBoxer said:


> We were allowed to invite about 30 people to this event and over 80% of them live locally.





editor said:


> Just your friends then?


Your bitterness about not getting to meet Prince Charles is really starting to show.


----------



## editor (Jul 2, 2012)

Maggot said:


> Your bitterness about not getting to meet Prince Charles is really starting to show.


I couldn't give a flying regal fuck about ol' Charlie, but a surprising amount of old folks can't get enough of the jug eared toff. It would have made their day to meet him.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Jul 2, 2012)

teuchter said:


> Ok. Well I think your posts answer a lot of the criticism that's been presented on this thread.
> 
> If you've read the whole thread you'll have seen that there are quite a few people with a tendency towards knee-jerk reactions and assuming the worst wherever there is a bit of an information vacuum. It's a shame you didn't respond a bit earlier - were you unaware of the discussion going on here?
> 
> ...


 

most pompous post of the month.  trying to get on the guest list for the next nekkid ladies dinner?


----------



## Maggot (Jul 2, 2012)

el-ahrairah said:


> most pompous post of the month. trying to get on the guest list for the next nekkid ladies dinner?


It's not pompous at all. It's very reasonable.


----------



## ddraig (Jul 2, 2012)

just cos you're a sarky twat that likes a dig too

e2a - welcome Brickboxer, good to have some clarifications and answers


----------



## Maggot (Jul 2, 2012)

Maggot said:


> It's not pompous at all. It's very reasonable.





ddraig said:


> just cos you're a sarky twat that likes a dig too


Can you please explain the link between these?


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Jul 2, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> So, they're like superannuated middle-class teenagers, then?


I've never been called a chavvy prole by a teenager...


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 2, 2012)

Mrs Magpie said:


> I've never been called a chavvy prole by a teenager...


 
Well, I did say "superannuated". 
I'm surprised you didn't give them a precise account of their parentage.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 2, 2012)

Maggot said:


> It's not pompous at all. It's very reasonable.


 
Nah, it's teuchter being teuchter, getting in some digs in the guise of passing comment.

It's not like he hasn't got form for doing so, is it?


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Jul 2, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Well, I did say "superannuated".
> I'm surprised you didn't give them a precise account of their parentage.


If I was taller and my shopping hadn't been so heavy I would have swung a bag at the back of his head. I just went home fuming.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 2, 2012)

Mrs Magpie said:


> If I was taller and my shopping hadn't been so heavy I would have swung a bag at the back of his head. I just went home fuming.


 
Last person who pissed me off like that only avoided a twatting with my walking stick because a) he was about the same age as my parents, and b) I was with my parents, and didn't want to spoil their illusions about my essentially kind and gentle nature.

What had he done? Made a remark to his (rather obsese) companion that "if that bloke weren't so fat, he wouldn't need  walking sticks". He got back "if this bloke didn't need walking sticks, he wouldn't be fat, you inbred Norfolk fuckwit!". Limped after my parents and Greebo, and my mum asked "were you arguing with that old man?". No, mum, just talking.


----------



## teuchter (Jul 2, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Nah, it's teuchter being teuchter, getting in some digs in the guise of passing comment.
> 
> It's not like he hasn't got form for doing so, is it?


 
What are these "digs", then, and why don't they qualify as acceptable "comment"?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 2, 2012)

teuchter said:


> What are these "digs", then, and why don't they qualify as acceptable "comment"?


 
Go back through the thread, look at every instance of you replying snarkily. There's your digs.

Oh, and *I* didn't say they weren't acceptable or didn't qualify as "acceptable" comment, but if you feel that way about them...


----------



## CH1 (Jul 2, 2012)

Maggot said:


> Your bitterness about not getting to meet Prince Charles is really starting to show.


I'm VERY bitter about not seeing Prince Charles. I've lived in Coldharbour Lane for 26 years. And when HRH comes to call he gets to see 30 artistic types, 80% of whom are from the area. What area - London? South London. Definitely not Coldharbour Lane. They didn't even invite George Walters in when he tapped on the window. And there is no-one in Brixton more Royalist than George!
It's all a bloooming shame. I felt I wanted to write (a letter - he answers letter) to show him he was batting for the wrong side. Might still do unless a more full-some apology comes from BB.


----------



## spanglechick (Jul 2, 2012)

i think the prince charles invite thing is a bit of an odd thing to get critical about.  he's visiting a project which has been helped by one of his charities or whatever - he's going to see people involved in that project.  Not a representative selection of people who happen to live nearby.


----------



## teuchter (Jul 2, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Go back through the thread, look at every instance of you replying snarkily. There's your digs.
> 
> Oh, and *I* didn't say they weren't acceptable or didn't qualify as "acceptable" comment, but if you feel that way about them...


 
You did effectively say they were not reasonable.


----------



## CH1 (Jul 2, 2012)

spanglechick said:


> i think the prince charles invite thing is a bit of an odd thing to get critical about. he's visiting a project which has been helped by one of his charities or whatever - he's going to see people involved in that project. Not a representative selection of people who happen to live nearby.


 
Well I'm odd then (as I'm sure you already noticed!). I think I've been indoctrinated by my peasant upbringing in SUFFOLK. We had to raise out caps to the masters when they drove by in their Daimlers. And touch our forelocks to the squire.
That is why I feel betrayed by Prince Charles paying all this attention to corrupt Upstairs rif-raff when he should be nurturing peasants like me.
What's the use of a King is he just hobnobs with his rich cronies and their punk aspirants?
Another reason for me to hurry up and move to Kumasi. Look at the CV of the Asantehene:

Educated at Institute of Professional Studies(IPS) after his O-Level at Osei Kyeretwie College in Ghana and later at the Polytechnic of North London, now London Metropolitan University, from where he recently also received an honorary degree of Doctor of Philosophy, conferred at a ceremony at The Barbican Centre, London on 11 January 2006. He resides at the Manhyia Palace in Kumasi.

Look who he honoured:
_*Asantehene honours 100 hard working teachers in deprived communities *_May 7, 2012
The Asantehene, Otumfuo Osei Tutu II, has underlined the need for greater recognition of the contribution of teachers in the nation’s development effort. He said it should not be lost on anybody that the progress of the country depends on quality human resource and skills and this could not be achieved without the teacher.
It is on account of this that they need to be encouraged and motivated to put in their best.
Otumfuo Osei Tutu was speaking at a ceremony to honour 100 basic school teachers selected from deprived communities across the country at the Manhyia palace in Kumasi on Monday.
The award winners, 10 from every region, were selected based on their performance and commitment to the promotion of quality education. They received television sets, certificate of honour and assorted items donated under the auspices of the Otumfuo Osei Tutu Charity Foundation.
The 10 Regional Education Directors were also honoured at the ceremony.
The awards, an annual ritual by the Foundation is to celebrate the contribution of teachers in deprived schools and encourage others to readily accept postings there to help improve performance.
Otumfuo Osei Tutu said even though the prizes are modest, the spirit behind it is to inspire them to show more dedication and enthusiasm in the job they are doing to enhance the quality of education.
They should see their contributions as the sacrifice they are making towards the nation’s socio-economic development.
Mrs Ernestina Afosah-Anim, Greater Accra Regional Director of Education, on behalf of the prize winners thanked the Asantehene for the gesture. She said the honour would not only serve as imprint in their teaching career but also a demonstration of commitment by the Asantehene towards the provision of quality education and the welfare of teachers. GNA

Teachers, not wankers as one might say.
That is a proper king - not easily deceived Greek riff-raff consorting with alleged artists who have delusions of grandeur!


----------



## gabi (Jul 2, 2012)

spanglechick said:


> i think the prince charles invite thing is a bit of an odd thing to get critical about. he's visiting a project which has been helped by one of his charities or whatever - he's going to see people involved in that project. Not a representative selection of people who happen to live nearby.


 
Maybe you didnt see the BBC report on his visit. The report implied that he and the Lottery Commission were giving £5m to a place that was charging £40 a head for rich young folk to eat 'where the bins are kept, where the street drinkers drink'. A place that until recently was a Jamaican pub frequented by the sort of people who would scare the fuck out of the types going to this supper club. That's why I asked what she needed this money for.


----------



## BrickBoxer (Jul 2, 2012)

teuchter said:


> Ok. Well I think your posts answer a lot of the criticism that's been presented on this thread.
> 
> If you've read the whole thread you'll have seen that there are quite a few people with a tendency towards knee-jerk reactions and assuming the worst wherever there is a bit of an information vacuum. It's a shame you didn't respond a bit earlier - were you unaware of the discussion going on here?
> 
> ...


 
Hi Teuchter, I was aware of some of the comments and have replied before on a previous thread. However, we are incredibly stretched as a team working 70 hour+ weeks so I'm not on the forum as much as I'd like to be. But it is good to be able to clarify a few things. Thank you.


----------



## BrickBoxer (Jul 2, 2012)

snowy_again said:


> Do you want to list them then, that would help Bboxer address them for you:
> 
> a) awareness of what's going on inside BB to the local community
> b) the type of events that go on and the cost involved
> ...


 
Hi there snowy_again, are these questions you'd like me to answer? 

Thanks, 
Rosie


----------



## Gramsci (Jul 2, 2012)

gabi said:


> Yeh she seems ok to me. she's answered my question re the lottery/prince charles' visit anyway.... just a shit beeb piece, as per usual..
> 
> not sure an aggresive response to her appearance on this site is quite the right way to get answers btw (not lookin at anyone)


 
We are all pussycats on Urban.


----------



## Badgers (Jul 2, 2012)

Gramsci said:
			
		

> We are all pussycats on Urban.



And pussybadgers you species racist


----------



## Gramsci (Jul 2, 2012)

Badgers said:


> And pussybadgers you species racist


 
Badgers are much maligned species.


----------



## Badgers (Jul 2, 2012)

Gramsci said:
			
		

> Badgers are much maligned species.



We are the Wasps of the Mammal world


----------



## el-ahrairah (Jul 3, 2012)

Maggot said:


> It's not pompous at all. It's very reasonable.


 
No, it's really not.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Jul 3, 2012)

BrickBoxer said:


> Hi there snowy_again, are these questions you'd like me to answer?
> 
> Thanks,
> Rosie


 
I imagine he was just bringing them up, you know, for an airing.

So what are you going to do to correct the BBC's reporting about the grant?


----------



## boohoo (Jul 3, 2012)

el-ahrairah said:


> I imagine he was just bringing them up, you know, for an airing.
> 
> So what are you going to do to correct the BBC's reporting about the grant?


 
I think you can get pieces corrected if they are on the website but not on the news. Unless you are writing the press release or get to sign something off before it goes live you can usually find something that isn't quite correct or open to misinterpretation. (i have a few examples from the windmill mural project)


----------



## editor (Jul 3, 2012)

Rosie: how much funding/grants has Brick Box picked up in total over the years? It might be useful to know what kind of grants you've got so others may try and apply for them.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Jul 3, 2012)

relevant?  http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/...your-soul-used-to-be-say-experts-201103033593


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## Brixton Hatter (Jul 3, 2012)

Brickbox appear to be spending a lot of money on security - security guards and blocking up the windows. Which actually suggests they might be slightly scared of the local community, rather than wanting to engage with it.


----------



## Dan U (Jul 3, 2012)

Brixton Hatter said:


> Brickbox appear to be spending a lot of money on security - security guards and blocking up the windows. Which actually suggests they might be slightly scared of the local community, rather than wanting to engage with it.


 
might also be terms of a license, the security not the windows?


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## Mrs Magpie (Jul 3, 2012)

Dan U said:


> might also be terms of a license, the security not the windows?


I think she mentioned the windows earlier. Are they a licensed premises? Who's the licensee?


----------



## teuchter (Jul 3, 2012)

Brixton Hatter said:


> Brickbox appear to be spending a lot of money on security - security guards and blocking up the windows. Which actually suggests they might be slightly scared of the local community, rather than wanting to engage with it.


 
Do you lock your front door?


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Jul 3, 2012)

I lock my door but I don't board up the windows when I'm out.


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## gabi (Jul 3, 2012)

Does your flat open on to Coldharbour Lane directly?

I used to live next door to the Angel. Can't say I'd recommend having massive open windows in that spot. Even a shitty flat door attracted a good kicking now and then.


----------



## teuchter (Jul 3, 2012)

BrickBoxer said:


> Re. the windows, they are boarded at the moment just to make the place doubly secure. They are big old panes of glass, and we don't have enough money to open all the time and have a permenant presence in the building so we made a decision that boarding them would help reduce our security costs and therefore ticket prices. Hopefully this will be able to change though.


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## Mrs Magpie (Jul 3, 2012)

gabi said:


> Does your flat open on to Coldharbour Lane directly?


No, but I live on Moorlands, and not in a flat. Not exactly regarded as a low crime area.


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## Mrs Magpie (Jul 3, 2012)

gabi said:


> Does your flat open on to Coldharbour Lane directly?
> 
> I used to live next door to the Angel. Can't say I'd recommend having massive open windows in that spot. Even a shitty flat door attracted a good kicking now and then.


But to be honest, I think the leaving boards up, especially on old windows is fair enough, it was more that teuchter was making a bit of a daft comparison.


----------



## Kanda (Jul 3, 2012)

Mrs Magpie said:


> But to be honest, I think the leaving boards up, especially on old windows is fair enough, it was more that teuchter was making a bit of a daft comparison.


 
So, you don't think it's cos they're scared of the locals as Brixton Hatter suggested?


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Jul 3, 2012)

I think they're worried the windows might get smashed, which does sometimes happen with properties that aren't being used much.


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## Mrs Magpie (Jul 3, 2012)

As for security on the door, that might be a condition of operation, but to be honest I don't think they need bouncers on the door, any more than the Albert does (although I've been on the door at the Albert for NYE as well as on the door of the Fridge for a club night once).


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 3, 2012)

I know they wrote that guff about street drinkers but there are certain kinds of people one would wish to discourage from coming in.


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## Mrs Magpie (Jul 3, 2012)

Yeah, they wouldn't let Drew or CH1 in


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## editor (Jul 3, 2012)

Here's a thought: if they have to keep the windows blacked up when there's no one in there (which has been, from my experience, all the time except when Prince Charles visits) why don't they open up the space to artists in the local community and let them use it during the day?

Surely that's got to be better than having the space lying empty and blacked out the whole time? After all, their (now edited) website says, "We aim to give more than we take, share more than we keep *and be open more than we are closed*."


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## Kanda (Jul 3, 2012)

Wouldn't they have to pay more insurance and other overheads if they done that?


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Jul 3, 2012)

It's much easier to insure a place that isn't empty most of the time. I had a helluva job getting house insurance for my M-I-Ls place after she died.


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## Orang Utan (Jul 3, 2012)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Yeah, they wouldn't let Drew or CH1 in


Indeed


----------



## snowy_again (Jul 3, 2012)

editor said:


> Here's a thought: if they have to keep the windows blacked up when there's no one in there (which has been, from my experience, all the time except when Prince Charles visits) why don't they open up the space to artists in the local community and let them use it during the day?
> 
> Surely that's got to be better than having the space lying empty and blacked out the whole time? After all, their (now edited) website says, "We aim to give more than we take, share more than we keep *and be open more than we are closed*."


 
If there's currently an exhibition on (wasn't that the gist of blackboxers earlier comments) which meant that there was art on the walls?  If so that would have to be taken down daily, stored and then rehung for exhibition times. 

198 Gallery has its door locked during the day for security reasons too.


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## teuchter (Jul 3, 2012)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Yeah, they wouldn't let Drew or CH1 in


 
Except that's not really what happened is it - turned out that they were in the process of closing up when raverdrew arrived, and CH1 didn't try and go in - he didn't want to because of the "butch" woman apparently on the door.


----------



## teuchter (Jul 3, 2012)

editor said:


> Here's a thought: if they have to keep the windows blacked up when there's no one in there (which has been, from my experience, all the time except when Prince Charles visits) why don't they open up the space to artists in the local community and let them use it during the day?
> 
> Surely that's got to be better than having the space lying empty and blacked out the whole time? After all, their (now edited) website says, "We aim to give more than we take, share more than we keep *and be open more than we are closed*."


 
Maybe you're not very familiar with the functional requirements of an artist studio space, which would tend to be not having to pack up and shift all your stuff in and out every few days. But they are offering the space, aren't they? I'm sure they would be open to sensible suggestions for daytime uses. They explicitly ask for people to get in touch,


----------



## ddraig (Jul 3, 2012)

are you on bloody commission or what?


----------



## editor (Jul 3, 2012)

snowy_again said:


> If there's currently an exhibition on (wasn't that the gist of blackboxers earlier comments) which meant that there was art on the walls? If so that would have to be taken down daily, stored and then rehung for exhibition times.


Seemed to all come down quickly enough for Prince Charles! And what use is an art gallery if it's never open?!

Besides, surely they can't have that much art on the walls that it covers every single window? There sure seemed lots of space on the walls in the photos I've seen.


----------



## editor (Jul 3, 2012)

This is what went on recently. 





> CuntCraft with The ClitorARTy in London!!
> 
> Cuntcraft hits London!
> We invite you to join us on 23rd June at 8pm for an evening of cunty creativity, poetry and performance as part of Exhibition SW9 in Brixton
> http://clitorarty.wordpress.com/2012/06/15/hello-world/


----------



## killer b (Jul 3, 2012)

what's wrong with that?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 3, 2012)

killer b said:


> what's wrong with that?


 
Stupid cunting name for a start


----------



## editor (Jul 3, 2012)

killer b said:


> what's wrong with that?


It seems rather at odds with their stated aims of creating something that is "freely accessible to a diverse audience, many of whom would traditionally self-exclude from arts experiences," no?


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## killer b (Jul 3, 2012)

does it? how?

I don't think the stated aim means that every exhibition they have on has to appeal to the widest range of people they possibly can. quite the opposite.


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## teuchter (Jul 3, 2012)

Basically it's a bit outre for humble local real community estate residents. They would prefer exhibitions of pastoral country scene paintings or maybe karaoke nights. Their imaginations and interest can't stretch much further than that, bless 'em.


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## killer b (Jul 3, 2012)

portraits of dogs playing pool.


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## Crispy (Jul 3, 2012)

killer b said:


> portraits of dogs playing pool.


painted with menstrual blood


----------



## editor (Jul 3, 2012)

teuchter said:


> Basically it's a bit outre for humble local real community estate residents. They would prefer exhibitions of pastoral country scene paintings or maybe karaoke nights. Their imaginations and interest can't stretch much further than that, bless 'em.


Obviously you - being the local expert in these matters - know far better, but I've still got a sneaking suspicion that a 'night of cuntery' featuring someone wearing a giant sized vagina head doesn't figure highly on what the local residents are looking for in their community arts.

In fact, I'd suggest that many would find a night entitled, 'CuntCraft' rather offensive - what with many families and religious types living right outside - but fuck 'em, eh? This is COMMUNITY ART!


----------



## killer b (Jul 3, 2012)

well, you can't please everyone. and nor would you want to.


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## teuchter (Jul 3, 2012)

Whatever would Ann Widdecombe have to say about such a thing.


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Jul 3, 2012)

teuchter said:


> Whatever would Ann Widdecombe have to say about such a thing.


I don't think she heads down this way although I sometimes see her at Newton Abbott Station. Anyway, never mind her, what would Pastor Mimi think?
I don't think I'd go either, it seems a bit piss-off-your-parents-shock-value.


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Jul 3, 2012)

Every young generation thinks they're the first to have discovered sex. I just think it's the ironic-post-modern equivalent of this....


...and anyway, I think Judy Chicago did it so much better.


----------



## teuchter (Jul 3, 2012)

Maybe they just have a view on whether female genitalia should be considered offensive.


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## Mrs Magpie (Jul 3, 2012)

I don't consider genitalia offensive but the shouty cunty capitals were just a bit LOOK AT US! FANNIES!


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## killer b (Jul 3, 2012)

i think that's kind of the point.


----------



## boohoo (Jul 3, 2012)

Mrs Magpie said:


> I don't consider genitalia offensive but the shouty cunty capitals were just a bit LOOK AT US! FANNIES!


 
It's very art school... but I think that's kind of what Shunt & Brick Box do. When I was at art college these kind of people annoyed me (there was a condom tree which the lady and her partner kept updated with fresh used condoms....yuck!)


----------



## editor (Jul 3, 2012)

teuchter said:


> Maybe they just have a view on whether female genitalia should be considered offensive.


You're getting desperate now.


----------



## killer b (Jul 3, 2012)

eh? have you read their website? that's the whole point of their art.


----------



## purenarcotic (Jul 3, 2012)

What sort of stuff are Brick Box doing with the local youth groups?  I would have thought they could run some workshops and then exhibit the art to the local community or something.


----------



## teuchter (Jul 3, 2012)

editor said:


> You're getting desperate now.


 
Having launched into criticism of a specific event (I'm guessing with no real attempt to find out what it's actually about), you then refuse to discuss or acknowledge its aims or background.

Worse, you try and dismiss the whole thing with an implication that I'm just desperately trying to have a go at you.

I wonder if anyone has noticed that most of your responses to me are personal digs - "you're just clueless" etc - whereas my responses to you are to what you have written - generally criticisms initiated by you.

Anyway - no references to female genitalia on Coldharbour Lane please - it might offend religious people.


----------



## BrickBoxer (Jul 3, 2012)

Hello everyone, 

Here are some answers to your questions, snowy_again.

a. What’s going on at The Brick Box? There’s information on up coming events on our website, and we’re planning to have more information up outside our unit in Granville Arcade. People who are interested in The Brick Box tend to get in touch through email, the comments form on the website, enquiring at our market unit, coming and chatting to us, and so on. 

b. Type of events and cost. Events are listed on our website with cost. The cost is never more than 5 pounds (although if there is food, you can pay more for that option), and we put on free events when we have funds to foot the bill. For Brixton Splash, for example, we’re running a sort of fringe event, opening during the day for free, running workshops and showing work responding to the pantheon Yuroba gods, curated by a local artist.

c. How can the venue be used? Anyone can submit a proposal to us – there’s a bit on our website called ‘Get involved’ which explains some different ways of joining in, but also in the ‘Contact us’ section people are invited to get in touch with whatever thoughts or questions. We don’t have a network that we prioritise, what goes on is purely about what we as a management team can support realistically when you factor in timings, costs for opening, etc. 

d. Funding arrangements. In the past, The Brick Box has received funding from bodies such as the Outer London Fund, The Big Draw, and some others. Information on these funds is publicly available to all and, knowing the immense amount of hard work involved, I wish all the best to any one who applies. 

To add, we don’t try to pick and choose what we think ‘art’ is because it’s different for different people. So there is a wide variety of things at our events, catering for different tastes.

Finally, it's worth mentioning that we haven’t been in the space for long and there is a huge amount of work that goes in to producing and facilitating the events and activities. As I've said previously, we're always keen to hear from new people and new ideas so if you'd like to get involved or see something different, drop us a line on hello@thebrickbox.co.uk. 

Have a nice evening,
Rosie


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## snowy_again (Jul 3, 2012)

editor said:


> Obviously you - being the local expert in these matters - know far better.!



I'm sorry I've been in the effra for a while, but isn't exactly what you are doing too? You give off an impression that everyone 'new' should approach you for approval, and you won't budge an itch to make anyone welcome. Is that how you were treated when you arrived? 

 U75 is not a true representation of Brixton either. It's a combination of the social media savvy, & lots of lurkers who don't engage because of the immaturity of discussion on here.


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## Crispy (Jul 3, 2012)

Intimidating is the word you're looking for


----------



## editor (Jul 3, 2012)

snowy_again said:


> U75 is not a true representation of Brixton either.


Of course it's not, but as nearby resident, I have every right to comment on what is going in my neighbourhood, especially when the 'community' word is being freely bandied about.

If you think that a public money-supported arts venture putting on unadvertised £40 'decadent' shindigs for their pals behind blacked out windows is a positive thing to happen to the local community, you are free to loudly lend them your support. No one is stopping you.

And if you think art shows called 'CuntCraft with The ClitorARTy' and 'Rude Food' are also the kind of things worth supporting, then, again, you are free to express that opinion.



Crispy said:


> Intimidating is the word you're looking for


Yet so many other businesses and ventures have managed to strike up a positive relationship with these boards with no problem at all.


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## Orang Utan (Jul 3, 2012)

You are not the gatekeeper


----------



## editor (Jul 3, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> You are not the gatekeeper


And that is why I'm not stopping anyone posting up *whatever they like. *


----------



## snowy_again (Jul 3, 2012)

That would imply it's intimidating though, which I don't find it is; just playground bullying. There's that argument that Internet space has different social mores to meat space and that you should treat it like a pub conversation. The level of nimbyism on here sometimes is amusing. 

Incidentally there was a question before about which other art groups work withh BB, and i seem to have read that 198 Gallery does. given Hustlebucks us in my opinion one of the best things in the Arcade that can't be a bad thing can it?


----------



## editor (Jul 4, 2012)

snowy_again said:


> Incidentally there was a question before about which other art groups work withh BB, and i seem to have read that 198 Gallery does. given Hustlebucks us in my opinion one of the best things in the Arcade that can't be a bad thing can it?


I'm not 'against' Brick Box at all. I just don't agree with the non-inclusive way they're doing things _at the Angel_.

This photo seems to sum it up, really. No doubt that makes me a 'NIMBY' in your eyes.


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## quimcunx (Jul 4, 2012)

editor said:


> Yet so many other businesses and ventures have managed to strike up a positive relationship with these boards with no problem at all.


 

With 22 likes for 10 messages I think brickbox has made a good start even in the face of a lot of hostility.


----------



## editor (Jul 4, 2012)

quimcunx said:


> With 22 likes for 10 messages I think brickbox has made a good start even in the face of a lot of hostility.


So not so 'intimidating' after all, then.

Like all users, they're welcome to contribute to these boards, engage with posters and add their own opinions.


----------



## teuchter (Jul 4, 2012)

editor said:


> If you think that a public money-supported arts venture putting on unadvertised £40 'decadent' shindigs for their pals


Have you not read a single word that Brick Box has posted on here?

Or are you just outrageously dishonest?


----------



## editor (Jul 4, 2012)

teuchter said:


> Have you not read a single word that Brick Box has posted on here?
> 
> Or are you just outrageously dishonest?


Are you outrageously stupid?

Brick Box have received public money. They have said so themselves.


----------



## quimcunx (Jul 4, 2012)

editor said:


> So not so 'intimidating' after all, then.
> 
> Like all users, they're welcome to contribute to these boards, engage with posters and add their own opinions.


 
How do you interpret that from what I said?  You said other businesses have struck up a positive relationship with the boards.  I say brickbox have too, in as much as it's early days - this despite how intimidating it must be to come here to talk to a pretty hostile audience. 

Not so much welcome to contribute as goaded into coming here to defend themselves.


----------



## editor (Jul 4, 2012)

quimcunx said:


> How do you interpret that from what I said? You said other businesses have struck up a positive relationship with the boards. I say brickbox have too, in as much as it's early days - this despite how intimidating it must be to come here to talk to a pretty hostile audience..


So you don't think their real world behaviour - you know, the blacked out windows, the toff-tastic private £40 supper club jaunts, the shite about hanging out with street drinkers, zero local advertising, the 'cunt' show, and the lack of meaningful engagement with the immediate community - may have played _any part_ in how opinions were subsequently formed?


----------



## teuchter (Jul 4, 2012)

"real world"


----------



## CH1 (Jul 4, 2012)

teuchter said:


> Except that's not really what happened is it - turned out that they were in the process of closing up when raverdrew arrived, and CH1 didn't try and go in - he didn't want to because of the "butch" woman apparently on the door.


This is not actually true. I was carrying a 4 pint container of milk and I did not want it contaminated by whatever they were getting up to in there!


----------



## snowy_again (Jul 4, 2012)

editor said:


>


 
Are you speaking on behalf of that man though? Do you know him, does he know that some random bloke on the internet is making inferred comments on his behalf? 

In the BBC vid he's there smiling and waving at Charlie Boy, who does the same back and they have a bit of giggle.


----------



## editor (Jul 4, 2012)

snowy_again said:


> Are you speaking on behalf of that man though? Do you know him, does he know that some random bloke on the internet is making inferred comments on his behalf?


I haven't "inferred" any opinions on his behalf. Stop trying to twist my words.

I'm just expressing my personal opinion and it's one that seems to chime with quite a few of my neighbours who are equally unimpressed with the way they're doing things. Truth it, I'm rather more more interested in the actual local community than what you think.





snowy_again said:


> In the BBC vid he's there smiling and waving at Charlie Boy, who does the same back and they have a bit of giggle.


Shame he had to do it through a window, no?


----------



## Yelkcub (Jul 4, 2012)

quimcunx said:


> How do you interpret that from what I said? You said other businesses have struck up a positive relationship with the boards. I say brickbox have too, in as much as it's early days - this despite how intimidating it must be to come here to talk to a pretty hostile audience.
> 
> Not so much welcome to contribute as goaded into coming here to defend themselves.


 
That sums up how I feel about this thread perfectly.


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## purenarcotic (Jul 4, 2012)

I have to say, isn't it very common when royals / PM's / other 'VIPs' come to visit that they are bundled into said project, chaperoned around it, they ask some questions, they smile and nod politely for the cameras and then they fuck off home again?

I'm not saying it's necessarily right, but it's not unusual for the VIP to only communicate with those directly involved in the project as opposed to the community at large.


----------



## uk benzo (Jul 4, 2012)

I enjoy reading Urban a lot. But threads like this make me realise how bipolar U75 can be. Here we have knee-jerk hostility to what some perceive as genrtrifying poshness (which it may be, but who am I to judge when I have not personally been to any of their exhibitions) and within the same breath shun Nandos chicken for not serving organic free range chicken and because "shit people eat there". Go figure.


----------



## gabi (Jul 4, 2012)

This thread is pretty shit yeh. Not a great advert for urban.


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## Badgers (Jul 4, 2012)

uk benzo said:
			
		

> within the same breath shun Nandos chicken for not serving organic free range chicken



Not correct. It was a response to another post. 




			
				uk benzo said:
			
		

> and because "shit people eat there". Go figure.



Tongue in cheek (somewhat)


----------



## teuchter (Jul 4, 2012)

purenarcotic said:


> I have to say, isn't it very common when royals / PM's / other 'VIPs' come to visit that they are bundled into said project, chaperoned around it, they ask some questions, they smile and nod politely for the cameras and then they fuck off home again?
> 
> I'm not saying it's necessarily right, but it's not unusual for the VIP to only communicate with those directly involved in the project as opposed to the community at large.


It's also a bit off to blame the project itself for the way this happens.


----------



## Crispy (Jul 4, 2012)

If I was opening a new business in Brixton, I would actively avoid promoting it on the urban75 forums.


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## Badgers (Jul 4, 2012)

Crispy said:
			
		

> If I was opening a new business in Brixton, I would actively avoid promoting it on the urban75 forums.



Word of mouth through the street drinkers?


----------



## editor (Jul 4, 2012)

Crispy said:


> If I was opening a new business in Brixton, I would actively avoid promoting it on the urban75 forums.


I'd imagine the owners of Cafe Sitifis and Crown and Anchor would strongly disagree with you, as would the many businesses who have thanked me for the support they've received from the urban community over the years.

Instead of blaming urban, perhaps you should look at the businesses themselves.


----------



## gabi (Jul 4, 2012)

Crispy said:


> If I was opening a new business in Brixton, I would actively avoid promoting it on the urban75 forums.


 
Better off promoting it on Facebook?


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 4, 2012)

Many people who comment on gentrication are part of the gentrification process. We're a bunch of hypocrites really. Moving to Brixton and then slagging off anyone else who moves in years later. I'm thinking of all the hipster comments on here, not just the Brickbox issue.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Jul 4, 2012)

uk benzo said:


> I enjoy reading Urban a lot. But threads like this make me realise how bipolar U75 can be. Here we have knee-jerk hostility to what some perceive as genrtrifying poshness (which it may be, but who am I to judge when I have not personally been to any of their exhibitions) and within the same breath shun Nandos chicken for not serving organic free range chicken and because "shit people eat there". Go figure.


 
I'd tend to agree tbh.

For me there's two different objections to this sort of thing - there's serious points about the nature and impact of gentrification, which is a complex and important subject, and there's 'I don't like them because they're posh/hipsters/cunts/whatever.' The second one might not be entirely unjustified but it destroys much hope of discussing the first properly.


----------



## Crispy (Jul 4, 2012)

editor said:


> I'd imagine the owners of Cafe Sitifis and Crown and Anchor would strongly disagree with you, as would the many businesses who have thanked me for the support they've received from the urban community over the years.


 
Great for them, but I wouldn't want to take the chance that my business would be deemed a "bad" business.


----------



## editor (Jul 4, 2012)

Crispy said:


> Great for them, but I wouldn't want to take the chance that my business would be deemed a "bad" business.


Who's calling BB a 'bad business'? I've never criticised their Villaaage venture, and helped publicise their Angel venue on my blog. And here's how I described their cafe in 2010:


> Further inside Brixton Village is Brick Box, a friendly arts hub and cafe bar, run by a “team of artists, dreamers, hopers and no hopers.”


But for a 'community arts' venture, I do think they've gone about this very badly indeed by putting on upmarket, essentially private events for their pals held behind blacked-out windows while refusing to let locals know what is going on.

They read these criticisms some time ago, and could have easily rectified things just by putting up a poster in the window, but they elected not to.

And whether you like it or not, there is a growing resentment in the area about what they're up to, and - to be honest - I would have thought most businesses would be grateful for the honest feedback, even if they don't agree with it.


----------



## editor (Jul 4, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> Many people who comment on gentrication are part of the gentrification process. We're a bunch of hypocrites really. Moving to Brixton and then slagging off anyone else who moves in years later. I'm thinking of all the hipster comments on here, not just the Brickbox issue.


That's not really the point. For me, it's more about inclusiveness and engagement with the local community.


----------



## Crispy (Jul 4, 2012)

Please, editor, I'm not trying to insult you and there is no need to defend yourself.


----------



## purenarcotic (Jul 4, 2012)

teuchter said:


> It's also a bit off to blame the project itself for the way this happens.


 
I personally suspect it's done this way because security dictates that is how it will be done.  These things are always heavily orchestrated so that there's little chance for a dissenting voice to 'break in' and make a comment deemed inappropriate. 

I don't disagree with ed at all in that I'm sure there would have been lots of members of the community who would have loved to see charlie boy, but over this specific incident I don't think we can lay the blame at the project's doorstep.


----------



## snowy_again (Jul 4, 2012)

editor said:


> But for a 'community arts' venture, I do think they've gone about this very badly indeed by putting on upmarket, essentially private events for their pals held behind blacked-out windows while refusing to let locals know what is going on.
> 
> They read these criticisms some time ago, and could have easily rectified things just by putting up a poster in the window, but they elected not to.
> 
> And whether you like it or not, there is a growing resentment in the area about what they're up to, and - to be honest - I would have thought most businesses would be grateful for the honest feedback, even if they don't agree with it.


 
See this is to me is the first time you've expressed your valid opinions about BB without sounding like Disgusted from Tonbridge Wells, and leaping from one bit of fauxrage to another.


----------



## editor (Jul 4, 2012)

snowy_again said:


> See this is to me is the first time you've expressed your valid opinions about BB without sounding like Disgusted from Tonbridge Wells, and leaping from one bit of fauxrage to another.


My opinions haven't changed at all from the start of the thread, although my tone may have grown more exasperated in the face of snidey comments.


----------



## ddraig (Jul 4, 2012)

fair few people seem to be blindly defending them (unless they're not being honest about connections) where there are valid criticisms.
fair play to Brickboxer for putting their case, we'll see how it goes


----------



## quimcunx (Jul 4, 2012)

editor said:


> So you don't think their real world behaviour - you know, the blacked out windows, the toff-tastic private £40 supper club jaunts, the shite about hanging out with street drinkers, zero local advertising, the 'cunt' show, and the lack of meaningful engagement with the immediate community - may have played _any part_ in how opinions were subsequently formed?


 
I'm indifferent to them. Like many things in Brixton/anywhere they're not particularly my thing. Neither are cooltan, squatting Mass, dominoes, Tesco, offline, churches or one o'clock clubs. I don't accuse them of shutting me out though. They are there for who wants them.

There are probably things brickbox could do better with regard to their stated aims but they're just starting in this venue.

This thread is far from a good example to set them of meaningful engagement. Any nubs of valid points you have get lost in the OTT rhetoric.



snowy_again said:


> See this is to me is the first time you've expressed your valid opinions about BB without sounding like Disgusted from Tonbridge Wells, and leaping from one bit of fauxrage to another.


 
Agreed.





uk benzo said:


> I enjoy reading Urban a lot. But threads like this make me realise how bipolar U75 can be. Here we have knee-jerk hostility to what some perceive as genrtrifying poshness (which it may be, but who am I to judge when I have not personally been to any of their exhibitions) and within the same breath shun Nandos chicken for not serving organic free range chicken and because "shit people eat there". Go figure.


 
Well it's hard to remember that it's made up of different people with different opinions sometimes, but yes, it can be/seem contradictory. Individuals often are anyway so it's not really a surprise that a site of this size is too.


----------



## quimcunx (Jul 4, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> Many people who comment on gentrication are part of the gentrification process. We're a bunch of hypocrites really. Moving to Brixton and then slagging off anyone else who moves in years later. I'm thinking of all the hipster comments on here, not just the Brickbox issue.


 
I expect you're getting a right slagging off on some Deptford based forum right now.



Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> I'd tend to agree tbh.
> 
> For me there's two different objections to this sort of thing - there's serious points about the nature and impact of gentrification, which is a complex and important subject, and there's 'I don't like them because they're posh/hipsters/cunts/whatever.' The second one might not be entirely unjustified but it destroys much hope of discussing the first properly.


 
well put.


----------



## teuchter (Jul 4, 2012)

Has anyone mentioned the £40 to get in (that you don't actually have to pay to get in) yet?


----------



## killer b (Jul 4, 2012)

i dunno, but there's been a lot of mention of 'hoity-toity'. whatever that means.


----------



## Yelkcub (Jul 4, 2012)

There's a mainly of lot of inverse snobbery. The rest just seems determination to back it up. But they blacked out the windows! Perfectly valid reason given but it's raised as a criticism again afterwards with no acknowledgement of that. But it was £40! Apart from when it was a fiver.


----------



## editor (Jul 4, 2012)

Yelkcub said:


> There's a mainly of lot of inverse snobbery. The rest just seems determination to back it up. But they blacked out the windows! Perfectly valid reason given but it's raised as a criticism again afterwards with no acknowledgement of that. But it was £40! Apart from when it was a fiver.


If you think an open and inclusive community arts centre should come with permanently blacked out windows, no local advertising whatsoever, no engagement with the local community whatsoever, semi-secret 'debauched' £40 supper clubs for their in-the-know pals, and a £5 night about 'cunts', then we'll have to agree to disagree on that definition. 

Sorry, but I think there's no excuse at all for them refusing to out up even a poster advertising their "community" arts events. It just makes it feel like they're not interested in locals getting involved and want to keep it that way, so if there's any 'snobbery' going down, it's not from me.


----------



## Yelkcub (Jul 4, 2012)

editor said:


> If you think an open and inclusive community arts centre should come with permanently blacked out windows, no local advertising whatsoever, no engagement with the local community whatsoever, semi-secret 'debauched' £40 supper clubs for their pals, and £5 nights about 'cunts', then we'll have to agree to disagree on that definition.
> 
> Sorry, but I think there's no excuse at all for them refusing to out up even a poster advertising their "community" arts events. It just makes it feel like they're not interested in locals getting involved and want to keep it that way, so if there's any 'snobbery' going down, it's not from me.


 
What's the obsession with the windows? They've explained and the explanation is completely understandable. 

I missed the nights about 'cunts' - where's that bit?

I'd say of people running a £40 do, making it available for £5 would very much suggest they were trying to make it widely affordable/available, wouldn't you?


----------



## gabi (Jul 4, 2012)

I think she did say earlier that your suggestion of putting up posters in the windows was a good one and something she was going to do


----------



## quimcunx (Jul 4, 2012)

Yelkcub said:


> There's a mainly of lot of inverse snobbery. The rest just seems determination to back it up. But they blacked out the windows! Perfectly valid reason given but it's raised as a criticism again afterwards with no acknowledgement of that. But it was £40! Apart from when it was a fiver.


 
..and apart from when it was free. 


Can you show me the bit where they _refused_ to put up a poster?


----------



## editor (Jul 4, 2012)

Yelkcub said:


> I missed the nights about 'cunts' - where's that bit?


I don't imagine the local community would have found this £5 event too inclusive, but it doesn't matter what they think because they weren't invited anyway.


> CuntCraft with The ClitorARTy in London!!
> Cuntcraft hits London!
> We invite you to join us on 23rd June at 8pm for an evening of cunty creativity, poetry and performance as part of Exhibition SW9 in Brixton
> http://clitorarty.wordpress.com/2012/06/15/hello-world/


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## ddraig (Jul 4, 2012)

yeah...but...like....if they didn't like it they should've gone to the door and asked for the luvvely welcoming people inside to send a representative out and i'm SURE a compromise would've been found and they would probably, i mean most certainly, clear a bit of the grime of the window so they could catch a glimpse of another world inside.
so there! or something


----------



## editor (Jul 4, 2012)

quimcunx said:


> Can you show me the bit where they _refused_ to put up a poster?


Oh are we getting into semantics now? The lack of local advertising has been brought up many times, right from the start of this thread. BB appear to have read this thread and there's still no advertising up so that's the conclusion I'm drawing. Sorry if it doesn't chime with yours.

But let's try another tack: could you tell me what steps BB has made to actively engage the local community* since they took over the building several months ago?

(*as in people living in the local vicinity, not the Villaaage People up the road)


----------



## quimcunx (Jul 4, 2012)

editor said:


> Oh are we getting into semantics now?


 
No.  We're getting into the way you consistently misrepresent and twist things.  This is what consistently gets my goat and loses you any support I might have had for your basic points. 

Maybe they haven't put posters up.  I agree it would be better if they did.  They agree it would be better to do that.  But in your world they have refused!!!!


----------



## teuchter (Jul 4, 2012)

For people who haven't read the whole thread: each time editor bangs on about the supposedly exclusive £40 nights - he is deliberately misrepresenting the reality (which has been confirmed by Brick Box several times) - on each of these nights it has been possible to get in for £5. The £40 was if you wanted food.


----------



## ddraig (Jul 4, 2012)

doesn't negate the fact that they are doing nights with food for £40 and that appears to be more prominent than the other stuff does it?

do you want to keep going round and round?


----------



## teuchter (Jul 4, 2012)

Yelkcub said:


> I missed the nights about 'cunts' - where's that bit?


 


> Cuntcraft began in October 2010. It was a personal project that became public. We wanted to learn to love our own cunts and this meant taking to the street. We began with sketches of cunts and colouring pencils. We’d slip them into people’s pockets. We’d sneak them into pub toilets. Then we got brave. We stopped whispering and began to casually approach women to see how they felt about their cunts. We learned a lot. We got 20 gold frames from the poundshop and heaps of glitter, satin, velvet, silk and glue. We invented cunting and embroidered metres of it. We wrote poems and began to share them with other women. We got louder and prouder. Stronger and braver. We began to exhibit these framed cunts and encourage women to make their own. LOTS of women crafted their own cunt collages. Many women wrote poems. They LOVED it.​And something beautiful would happen as soon as they would begin to create. They talked and talked and talked. Stories were told, experiences shared, advice given and heartaches exposed. Cuntaches too.​Cuntcraft was born and has to this date, exhibited for White Night Brighton 2010 and 2011, Brighton Fringe Festival 2011 and 2012 and in celebration of International Women’s Day 2012.​


http://clitorarty.wordpress.com/cuntcraft/

Editor doesn't want that kind of thing in Brixton though because it might offend "families and religious people".


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## teuchter (Jul 4, 2012)

ddraig said:


> doesn't negate the fact that they are doing nights with food for £40 and that appears to be more prominent than the other stuff does it?
> 
> do you want to keep going round and round?


 
What do you mean by "more prominent"?

We're only going round and round because Editor keeps repeating the same lies.


----------



## ddraig (Jul 4, 2012)

hair splitting, righteous defender, what is in this for you?

apart from getting the digs in obviously


----------



## teuchter (Jul 4, 2012)

ddraig said:


> hair splitting, righteous defender, what is in this for you?
> 
> apart from getting the digs in obviously


 
It's like quimcunx said above - to some extent I agree with some of the criticisms. I am not specifically defending Brick Box, I am defending their right to a fair hearing and editor's dishonesty really irritates me.

By the same logic what's in it for you? Whose pay are you under?

And you didn't answer my question.


----------



## ddraig (Jul 4, 2012)

how have they not had a fair hearing?
people were passing comment on the information they had, brick box could have avoided all that by being a bit pro active to begin with no?
thankfully they've turned up and started answering questions so we'll see how it goes and if they do indeed take concerns and suggestions on board


----------



## editor (Jul 4, 2012)

teuchter said:
			
		

> What do you mean by "more prominent"?
> 
> We're only going round and round because Editor keeps repeating the same lies.


I haven't posted any lies, and your continuing attempts to misrepresent me are a disgrace.


----------



## editor (Jul 4, 2012)

editor said:
			
		

> But let's try another tack: could you tell me what steps BB has made to actively engage the local community* since they took over the building several months ago?
> 
> (*as in people living in the local vicinity, not the Villaaage People up the road)


Anyone got anything to add here?


----------



## el-ahrairah (Jul 4, 2012)

teuchter said:


> For people who haven't read the whole thread: each time editor bangs on about the supposedly exclusive £40 nights - he is deliberately misrepresenting the reality (which has been confirmed by Brick Box several times) - on each of these nights it has been possible to get in for £5. The £40 was if you wanted food.


 
you have a very weird notion of what inclusivity is.  a two tiered entry for rich and poor may mean that poor people can come in and enjoy some of the experience, but it doesn;t make it anything other than elitist.  you're deliberate misrepresenting the reality that the experience is geared towards the wealthy. 

part of the problem, of course, is that Rosie is clearly a nice person.  She's clearly well-meaning, and probably thinks just like you teuchter, that simply doing a one-package-for-the-rich and an economy package so that the plebs can afford to come and join in after the nosh isn't actually inclusive, it's actually a bit patronising.  secondly, inviting anyone to put on stuff in their space is great.  but that in itself really is only providing a space to existing arty types, who are overwhelmingly middle-class cool art student hipster types around here.  so, oh no, we end up with wanky stuff and an increased feeling of exclusion by local groups.  you and she both lack a deeper picture in understanding social exclusion.  however, what Rosie has that you don't have is the chance to do something about that.  She can reach out to local community groups and put on events that positively encourage people to do art (something that seems to be happening a little already, albeit overwhelmingly in the village so not really the wider community but a start); she can offer to space to be used by people who teach art so that they can do it for free or cheap, they can do free displays, they can work with schools, with outreach organisations (cos there are dozens of hostels and old people's groups and MH organisations who would love an arts group to come into their organisations etc) and so on and so on.  so she can do some good.  whereas i imagine you'll just continue to spend your time trying to find ways of making the editor look bad on the internet.  which, btw, traditionally doesn't do one's mental health any good.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Jul 4, 2012)

hmm, i should perhaps have read that back before posting it, as it doesn't read very clearly.  but i'm sure you can udnerstand it.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 4, 2012)

Crispy said:


> If I was opening a new business in Brixton, I would actively avoid promoting it on the urban75 forums.


 
That's only because you know everyone would turn up to rob you blind.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Jul 4, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> Many people who comment on gentrication are part of the gentrification process. We're a bunch of hypocrites really. Moving to Brixton and then slagging off anyone else who moves in years later. I'm thinking of all the hipster comments on here, not just the Brickbox issue.


 
we are, i've thought about it a lot.  we're the vanguard of gentrification, helping to make an area safe and cool for the yuppies who were once dismissive or scared of it.

but hell, that gives us every right to be annoyed when we're priced out of the very market we love.  i've noticed that the sliding scale of annoyance at the yuppification of the area does have those who own their own homes at the 'unconcerned' end.  they're here, they're not going to priced out of their own community, and they may even end up making a profit out of it.  those of us who only see our rents rise aren't really able to take it with such a pinch of salt and detach so much.  if brixton wasn't such a great place to live i wouldn't give a fuck about all the yuppies coming here and changing things and pricing me out, but there you go.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 4, 2012)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> I'd tend to agree tbh.
> 
> For me there's two different objections to this sort of thing - there's serious points about the nature and impact of gentrification, which is a complex and important subject, and there's 'I don't like them because they're posh/hipsters/cunts/whatever.' The second one might not be entirely unjustified but it destroys much hope of discussing the first properly.


 
The problem being that the two are thoroughly intertangled, especially in London, given the unaffordability of housing. Of course, things aren't helped by developments like Brixton Villaage actively cultivating a "hipster" or "crypto-hipster" customer base.
As for "I don't like them...", the animosity doesn't tend to be personal, but rather based on what previous waves of incomers have done/changes they've caused. Gentrification is a progressive project. Each phase builds on the last, and as many "locals" (by which I don't just mean those born round here, but those who've settled here and acclimatised to the _locale_, rather than expecting the _locale_ to change to suit them!) are well aware, each phase makes *their* Brixton less a place and more a memory, and not in the way "natural demographic change" does, either.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 4, 2012)

el-ahrairah said:


> we are, i've thought about it a lot. we're the vanguard of gentrification, helping to make an area safe and cool for the yuppies who were once dismissive or scared of it.
> 
> but hell, that gives us every right to be annoyed when we're priced out of the very market we love. i've noticed that the sliding scale of annoyance at the yuppification of the area does have those who own their own homes at the 'unconcerned' end. they're here, they're not going to priced out of their own community, and they may even end up making a profit out of it. those of us who only see our rents rise aren't really able to take it with such a pinch of salt and detach so much. if brixton wasn't such a great place to live i wouldn't give a fuck about all the yuppies coming here and changing things and pricing me out, but there you go.


 
See, thing is, a lot of people who came to Brixton in the '80s and '90s, even the early 2000s, they didn't come here to change the place, they came to enjoy it in all its' ragged glory, and because it was damn cheap and very cheerful. Problem is that maybe a "critical mass" of change has been reached, and those arriving now aren't here to enjoy what *we* love, but rather to be "sightseers" to a representation of Brixton that suits their sensibilities, rather than "the real thing". Brixton started really changing fast 30 years ago, but the artistic communities and the squatters *added* to the communities, rather than taking. As the money has got bigger, though, there's been a whole lot more taking, and not a lot of adding to the communities, except insofar as "posh developments" constitute "closed communities", anyway.


----------



## quimcunx (Jul 4, 2012)

el-ahrairah said:


> hmm, i should perhaps have read that back before posting it, as it doesn't read very clearly. but i'm sure you can udnerstand it.


 
 It's a good reasoned post with salient criticism wrt to brickbox. I, at least partly, agree.  I fail to see why Editor shouldn't be challenged on what he posts here, same as anyone else.  I don't think anyone needs to, or is, 'trying' to make him look bad.  I do agree that engaging is bad for one's mental health after a while. 

As for the general gentrification that's not something you can pin on brickbox any more than you or me.  I own but although I'm not as affected as someone who is actually having to move out of the area that doesn't mean I'm indifferent.  Far from it.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 4, 2012)

el-ahrairah said:


> hmm, i should perhaps have read that back before posting it, as it doesn't read very clearly. but i'm sure you can udnerstand it.


 
Looks fine to me, old son.


----------



## teuchter (Jul 4, 2012)

el-ahrairah said:


> you have a very weird notion of what inclusivity is. a two tiered entry for rich and poor may mean that poor people can come in and enjoy some of the experience, but it doesn;t make it anything other than elitist. you're deliberate misrepresenting the reality that the experience is geared towards the wealthy.
> 
> part of the problem, of course, is that Rosie is clearly a nice person. She's clearly well-meaning, and probably thinks just like you teuchter, that simply doing a one-package-for-the-rich and an economy package so that the plebs can afford to come and join in after the nosh isn't actually inclusive, it's actually a bit patronising. secondly, inviting anyone to put on stuff in their space is great. but that in itself really is only providing a space to existing arty types, who are overwhelmingly middle-class cool art student hipster types around here. so, oh no, we end up with wanky stuff and an increased feeling of exclusion by local groups. you and she both lack a deeper picture in understanding social exclusion. however, what Rosie has that you don't have is the chance to do something about that. She can reach out to local community groups and put on events that positively encourage people to do art (something that seems to be happening a little already, albeit overwhelmingly in the village so not really the wider community but a start); she can offer to space to be used by people who teach art so that they can do it for free or cheap, they can do free displays, they can work with schools, with outreach organisations (cos there are dozens of hostels and old people's groups and MH organisations who would love an arts group to come into their organisations etc) and so on and so on. so she can do some good. whereas i imagine you'll just continue to spend your time trying to find ways of making the editor look bad on the internet. which, btw, traditionally doesn't do one's mental health any good.


You make a lot of assumptions about what I do or don't understand about the concept of inclusivity. Like I already said, some of the criticism I agree with.
The point is when editor talks about an "exclusive £40" night it's clearly intended to be read (by someone that hasn't followed the whole thread) as meaning a night where you can only get in for £40. I take all your points about how a two-tiered price system could end up excluding people. I would say it depends how it's organised. If it's a bunch of people living it up at a table eating a fancy meal while the £5 people get to sit in the corner then of course that's not an inlusive event. On the other hand if there's a meal earlier in the evening, then afterwards a bunch of other entertainment comes as a late-night event open to everyone for £5 then that's rather different is it not?
I don't know exactly how the format of these nights has been arranged because I've not been to one and neither has Editor. Nevertheless he persists in deliberately representing it as an exclusive event for the wealthy with no acknowledgement of the £5 element. All I ask is that people can make their minds up about Brick Box based on accurate information rather than supposition and editor's particular spin on things presented as fact.

If you look back through the thread you'll see that (possibly due to an inaccurate BBC report) people were under the impression that the events at the Angel are being funded with public money. When Brick Box clarified that they aren't, I'd say that was a fairly critical piece of information. Surely you'd agree that a supper club funded by public grant money is a very different thing from a supper club run by volunteers and an external organisation with their own funding methods. But editor still refers to an organisation funded with publc money, when talking about the supper club. He can claim that technically he wasn't lying because BB have recieved public funding in the past...but the intention was clearly to insinuate that public funding had been used to subsidise the £40 events.

Could it be seen as insensitive to hold a faux-Victorian supper club in that particular location? Maybe - it's debateable. Does it justify deliberately representing the facts about that event? Of course not.

Anyway I'll certainly agree that trying to have a sensible discussion about anything withmthe edtor is not good for anyone's mental health.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 4, 2012)

quimcunx said:


> It's a good reasoned post with salient criticism wrt to brickbox. I, at least partly, agree. I fail to see why Editor shouldn't be challenged on what he posts here, same as anyone else. I don't think anyone needs to, or is, 'trying' to make him look bad. I do agree that engaging is bad for one's mental health after a while.
> 
> As for the general gentrification that's not something you can pin on brickbox any more than you or me. I own but although I'm not as affected as someone who is actually having to move out of the area that doesn't mean I'm indifferent. Far from it.


 
In fact as an owner you may, in the short to middle term, find yourself contemplating moving, if history repeats itself in terms of property prices.


----------



## editor (Jul 4, 2012)

teuchter said:


> Anyway I'll certainly agree that trying to have a sensible discussion about anything withmthe edtor is not good for anyone's mental health.


You just can't leave out the personal insults, can you?


----------



## el-ahrairah (Jul 4, 2012)

quimcunx said:


> It's a good reasoned post with salient criticism wrt to brickbox. I, at least partly, agree. I fail to see why Editor shouldn't be challenged on what he posts here, same as anyone else. I don't think anyone needs to, or is, 'trying' to make him look bad. I do agree that engaging is bad for one's mental health after a while.
> 
> As for the general gentrification that's not something you can pin on brickbox any more than you or me. I own but although I'm not as affected as someone who is actually having to move out of the area that doesn't mean I'm indifferent. Far from it.


 
i'm all in favour of challenging editor and do it myself.  it's just that teuchter is actually deliberately missing the point and accusing editor of saying things he didn't. 

re: gentrification, fair play.  you don't seem as angry as many others tbh.


----------



## Crispy (Jul 4, 2012)

editor said:


> You just can't leave out the personal insults, can you?


 
Saying that arguing with you drives one mad is not an insult.


----------



## quimcunx (Jul 4, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> In fact as an owner you may, in the short to middle term, find yourself contemplating moving, if history repeats itself in terms of property prices.


 
Do you mean because prices will go up?   I bought more than 10 years ago and it has trebled in value.  I've not moved yet.   

Of course it's possible I'll move at some point.  Who knows how changes in Brixton and in me might lead to that happening.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Jul 4, 2012)

teuchter, i might be making assuptions about what you know about social inclusion, but i have to based upon your posts.  because you give no sign of understanding and are doing exactly the same thing you accuse editor of, i.e. misrepresentation and twisting the argument.


----------



## editor (Jul 4, 2012)

Crispy said:


> Saying that arguing with you drives one mad is not an insult.


Constantly misrepresenting my views and calling me a liar certainly is.


----------



## teuchter (Jul 4, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> See, thing is, a lot of people who came to Brixton in the '80s and '90s, even the early 2000s, they didn't come here to change the place, they came to enjoy it in all its' ragged glory, and because it was damn cheap and very cheerful. Problem is that maybe a "critical mass" of change has been reached, and those arriving now aren't here to enjoy what *we* love, but rather to be "sightseers" to a representation of Brixton that suits their sensibilities, rather than "the real thing". Brixton started really changing fast 30 years ago, but the artistic communities and the squatters *added* to the communities, rather than taking. As the money has got bigger, though, there's been a whole lot more taking, and not a lot of adding to the communities, except insofar as "posh developments" constitute "closed communities", anyway.


as someone who moved here in 1999 this is a fairly accurate description of how I feel about things.
But at the same time I can't help wondering if we are being rather generous to ourselves in the distinction we draw between 'us' and the current nu-Brixton 'them'.


----------



## teuchter (Jul 4, 2012)

el-ahrairah said:


> teuchter, i might be making assuptions about what you know about social inclusion, but i have to based upon your posts. because you give no sign of understanding and are doing exactly the same thing you accuse editor of, i.e. misrepresentation and twisting the argument.


What do you think I've misrepresented?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 4, 2012)

quimcunx said:


> Do you mean because prices will go up? I bought more than 10 years ago and it has trebled in value. I've not moved yet.
> 
> Of course it's possible I'll move at some point. Who knows how changes in Brixton and in me might lead to that happening.


 
What I mean is that with some areas (I've seen in happen in parts of Battersea and Clapham, bits of east London, and in other cities) sometimes prices rise so precipitously on the heels of "fashion" (for want of a better word) that it can make more sense to sell and move than to stay, especially when the price difference can be so local that you only need move a mile or two, IYSWIM.


----------



## quimcunx (Jul 4, 2012)

el-ahrairah said:


> i'm all in favour of challenging editor and do it myself. it's just that teuchter is actually deliberately missing the point and accusing editor of saying things he didn't.
> 
> re: gentrification, fair play. you don't seem as angry as many others tbh.


 
I don't think he has. 

I'm not that given to outbursts of anger.  That said I haven't been able to watch the news since the ConDems got in because I can't afford to buy a new telly every time I put a shoe through it.


----------



## snowy_again (Jul 4, 2012)

editor said:


> Constantly misrepresenting my views and calling me a liar certainly is.


 

Diddums. You're doing exactly the same with BB; repeatedly stating that they're a 'publicly funded organisation'* and that to access their 'publicly funded exclusive events' you have to pay the £40 entrance fee, which isn't true. Complaining about their blacked out windows - even though it was pointed out that to replace a large pane of glass is beyond their current financial position.

You seem to want to ignore all the explanations that have been given; and all the while stating that most of their web presence / SEO is through here and in essence putting out incorrect information on them, even after you've been corrected.

* which they are, but NOT for the Angel project, as been pointed out several times.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 4, 2012)

teuchter said:


> as someone who moved here in 1999 this is a fairly accurate description of how I feel about things.
> But at the same time I can't help wondering if we are being rather generous to ourselves in the distinction we draw between 'us' and the current nu-Brixton 'them'.


 
The way I see it, as someone who's spent most of their life (bar, I think, about 3 years) within a 3-4 mile radius of central Brixton, I'm not so sure it's "generous" as much as "honest", if only because for most "earlier arrivals", the main motive for moving here wasn't fashionability (horrible word, but aposite, I think), but rather utility. Did you come here expecting a fully-grown cultural experience of the type "nu Brixton" is being sold? I mean, you may have visited the area before you moved here and thought "great clubs!", but you weren't having a whole cultural package set out before you, and these new folk are. They're coming here expecting a "scene" rather than creating one.
I suppose I see them as (to be ineffably poncey) a form of modern _flaneur_, moving through spaces, but not *of* them, interested only in the spectacle.


----------



## quimcunx (Jul 4, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> What I mean is that with some areas (I've seen in happen in parts of Battersea and Clapham, bits of east London, and in other cities) sometimes prices rise so precipitously on the heels of "fashion" (for want of a better word) that it can make more sense to sell and move than to stay, especially when the price difference can be so local that you only need move a mile or two, IYSWIM.


 

True.  I suppose if that happened it would be logical for me to assess my situation, same as we all do in changing climates.  I'm not very inclined that way however, through laziness and risk aversion.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Jul 4, 2012)

teuchter said:


> What do you think I've misrepresented?


 
oh good grief...you had better be trolling.


----------



## ddraig (Jul 4, 2012)

so you're one of those that can dish it out but not take it eh!


----------



## editor (Jul 4, 2012)

snowy_again said:


> Diddums. You're doing exactly the same with BB; repeatedly stating that they're a 'publicly funded organisation'* and that to access their 'publicly funded exclusive events' you have to pay the £40 entrance fee, which isn't true. Complaining about their blacked out windows - even though it was pointed out that to replace a large pane of glass is beyond their current financial position.
> 
> You seem to want to ignore all the explanations that have been given; and all the while stating that most of their web presence / SEO is through here and in essence putting out incorrect information on them, even after you've been corrected.
> 
> * which they are, but NOT for the Angel project, as been pointed out several times.


But it's THE SAME PEOPLE. The Brick Box run the Angel and the Brick Box has enjoyed substantial public funding. It's the same people, the same organisation using the same resources and sharing the same website. It's utterly ridiculous and disingenuous to suggest that the ventures aren't one and the same.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 4, 2012)

quimcunx said:


> True. I suppose if that happened it would be logical for me to assess my situation, same as we all do in changing climates. I'm not very inclined that way however, through laziness and risk aversion.


 
Risk aversion is sensible.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Jul 4, 2012)

i actually heard editor having an aneurysm, and i'm in north london.


----------



## snowy_again (Jul 4, 2012)

You haven't a clue have you.

(in response to #1128)


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## Dan U (Jul 4, 2012)

my impression was that the £40 stuff was cross subsidising the rest of the project, not the other way round.


----------



## snowy_again (Jul 4, 2012)

When they get a grant for say, work in Tooting, *all* of that money has to be spent on work. In Tooting.
They're given money to deliver specific outputs (tasks, workshops, training events, exhibitions related to the Tooting project).

It cannot be used to subsidise or deliver new work in Brixton. So public money is not going to deliver £40 (*or in actual truth £5 events* with an option of buying dinner at the same time for that £40) events. 

If they did, the funder could ask for their money back and/or chose not to fund them again.


----------



## Dan U (Jul 4, 2012)

snowy_again said:


> When they get a grant for say, work in Tooting, *all* of that money has to be spent on work. In Tooting. They're given money to deliver specific outputs (tasks, workshops, training events, exhibitions related to Tooting).
> 
> It cannot be used to subsidise or deliver new work in Brixton.
> 
> If they did, the funder could ask for their money back and/or chose not to fund them again.


 
i think this is the bit that's got lost in the noise

there are a lot of valid criticisms on this thread but this one about the grants is borderline accusing them of misappropriation of funding


----------



## teuchter (Jul 4, 2012)

el-ahrairah said:


> oh good grief...you had better be trolling.


I'll plead guilty to occasional childish troublemaking/provocation but I don't think I'm guilty of editor-style misrepresentation of facts.


----------



## teuchter (Jul 4, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> The way I see it, as someone who's spent most of their life (bar, I think, about 3 years) within a 3-4 mile radius of central Brixton, I'm not so sure it's "generous" as much as "honest", if only because for most "earlier arrivals", the main motive for moving here wasn't fashionability (horrible word, but aposite, I think), but rather utility. Did you come here expecting a fully-grown cultural experience of the type "nu Brixton" is being sold? I mean, you may have visited the area before you moved here and thought "great clubs!", but you weren't having a whole cultural package set out before you, and these new folk are. They're coming here expecting a "scene" rather than creating one.
> I suppose I see them as (to be ineffably poncey) a form of modern _flaneur_, moving through spaces, but not *of* them, interested only in the spectacle.


Yeah I basically agree with this I guess.


----------



## CH1 (Jul 4, 2012)

teuchter said:


> http://clitorarty.wordpress.com/cuntcraft/
> 
> Editor doesn't want that kind of thing in Brixton though because it might offend "families and religious people".


I'm sure there are some pagans who would LOVE it. They're religious too.


----------



## CH1 (Jul 4, 2012)

quimcunx said:


> Do you mean because prices will go up? I bought more than 10 years ago and it has trebled in value. I've not moved yet.  Of course it's possible I'll move at some point. Who knows how changes in Brixton and in me might lead to that happening.


It's always location, location, location. Those of us "lucky" to come into the basked gloryzone that is going to surround Brixton Square will obviously be able to cash in and move to Gh. Ng . or somewhere else cheap - meanwhile investing our ill-gotten gains on the money market.
I can't believe my luck. Here I was with no pension - made unemployed in 2010 with barely a year's salary as compensation. Had the letter from DWP saying no pension for YOU till 2020 matey.
Then along comes Mrs Thatcher's favourite builder - and some dodgy dealing on Lambeth Council.
Don't expect any more acidic comments from me about Barratt Homes - I've seen the light!


----------



## killer b (Jul 4, 2012)

re: the £40 supper club thing, in case anyone missed it:



> The 40 pound tickets you mention is chosen by the supper club chefs. We don't take any money from them but let them use a part of our space


 
my understanding of the saltoun supper club is that it's a tiny 'restaurant' run out of someone's living room in brixton, which sells out months in advance. so, chances are the attendees on the night weren't 'pals' of the brick box people, but were more likely sourced from the supper club's own mailing list. as to how many of them are locals i don't know, but it seems a shame to begrudge a local business the opportunity to spread their wings a bit. and rather than the 40 quid funding the other activities at the venue, it seems they aren't making anything...


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## Kanda (Jul 4, 2012)

It doesn't sell out months in advance. They regularly have places free and advertise this on Facebook and maybe other places.


----------



## killer b (Jul 4, 2012)

fair enough. i've only heard about it once before this thread, a few years ago. it was certainly the case then.


----------



## kalibuzz (Jul 4, 2012)

.


----------



## CH1 (Jul 5, 2012)

BTW the new Police Commander in Brixton seemed to be suggesting that he doesn't care for excessive Hurray Henryism. He claimed support from some Labour councillors in this. If so this is a change of policy, which since 1994 has been to promote a "24hr economy".  Commander Bell (for it was he) said there were 8 large venues in Lambeth with 24 hours licenses - and this was excessive compared to other similarly sized boroughs.  He also said (in effect) that Lambeth Council Licensing were not doing their job properly in monitoring establishments they had licensed.
This all came up because a deputation attended the meeting from Arlington Lodge (social housing behind the Fridge Bar). They were complaining about excessive noise until all hours. Not sure where from - I missed some parts of the meeting. It wouldn't be the Fridge itself - they have good sound insulation.
I had earlier complained about William Hills in Coldharbour Lane - and again he did not seem a particular fan of betting shops attracting ne'er do wells!
I posted an account at the Brixton Society website - if anyone is interested.


----------



## Rushy (Jul 5, 2012)

CH1 said:


> BTW the new Police Commander in Brixton seemed to be suggesting that he doesn't care for excessive Hurray Henryism. He claimed support from some Labour councillors in this. If so this is a change of policy, which since 1994 has been to promote a "24hr economy". Commander Bell (for it was he) said there were 8 large venues in Lambeth with 24 hours licenses - and this was excessive compared to other similarly sized boroughs. He also said (in effect) that Lambeth Council Licensing were not doing their job properly in monitoring establishments they had licensed.
> This all came up because a deputation attended the meeting from Arlington Lodge (social housing behind the Fridge Bar). They were complaining about excessive noise until all hours. Not sure where from - I missed some parts of the meeting. It wouldn't be the Fridge itself - they have good sound insulation.
> I had earlier complained about William Hills in Coldharbour Lane - and again he did not seem a particular fan of betting shops attracting ne'er do wells!
> I posted an account at the Brixton Society website - if anyone is interested.


 
We've been on at noise control and licensing about the Fridge Bar for about a year and they are totally disinterested.  They often have the doors wide open early on a Wednesday morning with music blaring until 5am. Never a problem when there was only a main sound system in the basement. Noise control told me no one else complains so your info re Arlington Lodge is very interesting!

Mind you - I don't think that has a lot to do with Hooray Henry's.

The Electric caused some disturbance to begin with - the Carl Cox nights were very audible - but they seem to have quickly and voluntarily sorted that out after neighbours raised it with them.


----------



## Rushy (Jul 5, 2012)

CH1 said:


> BTW the new Police Commander in Brixton seemed to be suggesting that he doesn't care for excessive Hurray Henryism. He claimed support from some Labour councillors in this. If so this is a change of policy, which since 1994 has been to promote a "24hr economy". Commander Bell (for it was he) said there were 8 large venues in Lambeth with 24 hours licenses - and this was excessive compared to other similarly sized boroughs. He also said (in effect) that Lambeth Council Licensing were not doing their job properly in monitoring establishments they had licensed.
> This all came up because a deputation attended the meeting from Arlington Lodge (social housing behind the Fridge Bar). They were complaining about excessive noise until all hours. Not sure where from - I missed some parts of the meeting. It wouldn't be the Fridge itself - they have good sound insulation.
> I had earlier complained about William Hills in Coldharbour Lane - and again he did not seem a particular fan of betting shops attracting ne'er do wells!
> I posted an account at the Brixton Society website - if anyone is interested.


 
And to answer your question (in the article) about who took over from Rachel Heywood it is Cllr John Hopkins. ETA: Jack Hopkins - not John.


----------



## Gramsci (Jul 6, 2012)

Rushy said:


> We've been on at noise control and licensing about the Fridge Bar for about a year and they are totally disinterested. They often have the doors wide open early on a Wednesday morning with music blaring until 5am. Never a problem when there was only a main sound system in the basement. Noise control told me no one else complains so your info re Arlington Lodge is very interesting!
> 
> Mind you - I don't think that has a lot to do with Hooray Henry's.
> 
> The Electric caused some disturbance to begin with - the Carl Cox nights were very audible - but they seem to have quickly and voluntarily sorted that out after neighbours raised it with them.


 
I did raise the issue of noise / 24 hour economy and how to balance entertainment with Brixton being also residential at the meeting on the SPDs. As it is an issue. I felt it was not taken seriously there either.


----------



## Gramsci (Jul 6, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> The way I see it, as someone who's spent most of their life (bar, I think, about 3 years) within a 3-4 mile radius of central Brixton, I'm not so sure it's "generous" as much as "honest", if only because for most "earlier arrivals", the main motive for moving here wasn't fashionability (horrible word, but aposite, I think), but rather utility. Did you come here expecting a fully-grown cultural experience of the type "nu Brixton" is being sold? I mean, you may have visited the area before you moved here and thought "great clubs!", but you weren't having a whole cultural package set out before you, and these new folk are. They're coming here expecting a "scene" rather than creating one.
> I suppose I see them as (to be ineffably poncey) a form of modern _flaneur_, moving through spaces, but not *of* them, interested only in the spectacle.


 
Interesting post.

I suggest also that cultural experience itself had become more commodified. It is not that people coming here expecting something. It is how things work now.

Brixton Village is a case in point. It does have this slight feel to it that it has been designed and set out as a cultural package that is sell-able to the consumer. And it is highly successful rebranding exercise. It has become the place to go in London. When I chat to people they now what Brixton Village is. A few years ago they would know where Brixton is but not Brixton Village.

I agree a lot of people ended up in Brixton because it was cheap and easier to find somewhere he to live. What I am against is the fact that Brixton soon will be unaffordable to a new arrival to London.That is the bottom line.


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## CH1 (Jul 6, 2012)

My Facebook Friend Lib Dem Cllr Michael Bukola
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 helpfully posted a BBC World Service clip:
HEALTH WARNING: This clip shows genuine Multiculturalism as practised in one of the few remaining WORKING CLASS areas of inner South London. New migrants to Brxiton may be SHOCKED and/or APPALLED
London Calling: Peckham
Edgy and vibrant - huh?
Where would you rather spend time - vibrant Peckham - or cooped up with some navel gazing "artists" in Coldharbour Lane on a Saturday afternoon, followed by a Saltoun £40 bash dressed as a Penguin?  I ask you!


----------



## Ms T (Jul 6, 2012)

Have you not heard of Frank's Campari Bar or whatever it's called in Peckham - hipster central.


----------



## Kanda (Jul 6, 2012)

Ms T said:


> Have you not heard of Frank's Campari Bar or whatever it's called in Peckham - hipster central.



Wasn't when it started about four years ago.... Today it was on the 'where to watch the shard shit map'


----------



## Ms T (Jul 6, 2012)

I thought it opened last year for the first time?


----------



## CH1 (Jul 6, 2012)

Ms T said:


> Have you not heard of Frank's Campari Bar or whatever it's called in Peckham - hipster central.


Maybe I should ask Michael there for a cup of tea? Or don't they do tea?
There's always Manze's Eel Pie & Mash though. We lost our Coldharbour Lane one over 10 years ago! I rember them smashing the marble table tops and dumping them in the street. What an iconoclastic act of cultural vandalism!


----------



## Kanda (Jul 6, 2012)

Ms T said:


> I thought it opened last year for the first time?



Nope.


----------



## Kanda (Jul 6, 2012)

CH1 said:


> Maybe I should ask Michael there for a cup of tea? Or don't they do tea?
> There's always Manze's Eel Pie & Mash though. We lost our Coldharbour Lane one over 10 years ago! I rember them smashing the marble table tops and dumping them in the street. What an iconoclastic act of cultural vandalism!



You're like the old dude out of a Dan Brown novel.


----------



## CH1 (Jul 6, 2012)

Kanda said:


> You're like the old dude out of a Dan Brown novel.


Who he? WATCH THE CLIP - it is a genuine delight I promise you. As feel-good as St John's Angel Town on Sunday mornings. And even more multi cultural.


----------



## CH1 (Jul 6, 2012)

WATCH THE CLIP


----------



## Ms T (Jul 6, 2012)

Also Bellenden Road is in Peckham, no?  Ten years ago it was definitely on the rough side of "edgy", now it's gentrification central.


----------



## CH1 (Jul 6, 2012)

Ms T said:


> Also Bellenden Road is in Peckham, no? Ten years ago it was definitely on the rough side of "edgy", now it's gentrification central.


Stop obsessing and WATCH THE CLIP (OCD OCD OCD)


----------



## Kanda (Jul 6, 2012)

CH1 said:


> WATCH THE CLIP



I switched off when I heard the yank accent talking about...'a world away'... Great chat.


----------



## CH1 (Jul 6, 2012)

Kanda said:


> I switched off when I heard the yank accent talking about...'a world away'... Great chat.


Charming - heard an Iranian exile woman talking in an American accent and he turns off.
I shan't cast my (or more accurately the BBC and Michael Bukola's) pearls before swine again


----------



## CH1 (Jul 6, 2012)

CH1 said:


> Charming - heard an Iranian exile woman talking in an American accent and he turns off.
> I shan't cast my (or more accurately the BBC and Michael Bukola's) pearls before swine again


Fortunately we don't get your type in Ghana - "Too black"


----------



## editor (Jul 6, 2012)

I'm kinda losing the thread here.


----------



## Kanda (Jul 6, 2012)

You'd never guess you wanted to be a politician.


----------



## editor (Jul 6, 2012)

Kanda said:


> You'd never guess you wanted to be a politician.


And now I'm definitely lost.


----------



## CH1 (Jul 6, 2012)

Ed I was trying to get them to watch a short 5 minute clip about Peckham compiled by a journalist who works for the BBC Persian Service. He doesn't like he accent. And Mrs T can only speak of which bits of Peckham are now gentrified.
You can lead horses to water.......


----------



## Kanda (Jul 6, 2012)

CH1 said:


> Ed I was trying to get them to watch a short 5 minute clip about Peckham compiled by a journalist who works for the BBC Persian Service. He doesn't like he accent. And Mrs T can only speak of which bits of Peckham are now gentrified.
> You can lead horses to water.......



Or you can get very confussled about what's going on.


----------



## CH1 (Jul 6, 2012)

Kanda said:


> You'd never guess you wanted to be a politician.


Fortunately for them politicians are in such short supply nowadays on the street that "locals" find them "vibrant and edgy" when given even a morsel of personal attention.
Maybe Ed has a career there. I am on the banned list - as I have explained elsewhere.


----------



## Kanda (Jul 6, 2012)

CH1 said:


> Fortunately for them politicians are in such short supply nowadays on the street that "locals" find them "vibrant and edgy" when given even a morsel of personal attention.
> Maybe Ed has a career there. I am on the banned list - as I have explained elsewhere.



I wasn't talking about Ed.


----------



## CH1 (Jul 6, 2012)

Kanda said:


> I wasn't talking about Ed.


In that case I am an ex-politician (at least in Brixton)


----------



## Kanda (Jul 6, 2012)

CH1 said:


> In that case I am an ex-politician (at least in Brixton)



Yes. We know.


----------



## CH1 (Jul 6, 2012)

CH1 said:


> In that case I am an ex-politician (at least in Brixton)


My current role is one of truth-teller.
I have 78 Facebook Friends - mostly from Nigeria, South Africa and Malawi.
I answer questions such as "Mr Warner - do you belong to a secret society?"
or "Mr Warner - is it true about the Illuminati?"
or even "Mr Warner - what shall I do to be saved"
Although the ANC are a bit different - in that case it is
"Comrade - what have you got against Comrade Mugabe"
or "Comrade - why are you saying UBS is the favourite bank for Mugabe's cronies"

That sort of thing.

Being a guru brings a sense of responsibility.
Unlike most posters on Urban 75 who slag things and people off anonymously.


----------



## Kanda (Jul 6, 2012)

Um... That just reads like a bottle of single malt to me....


Huh?


----------



## CH1 (Jul 6, 2012)

Kanda said:


> Um... That just reads like a bottle of single malt to me....
> Huh?


If you are implying I am drunk (or drink anything more than the occasional Red Stripe can or real ale) you are barking up the wrong tree.
I am actually classified as demented - by my GP at least. Went to have my blood pressure done three weeks ago and he "sent me through" to CMH at 332 Brixton Road.
I had to attend an interview with a CPN for an hour this afternoon.
She ended up almost in tears. I think it was because she realised she wanted to be like me - completely free.
We were discussing my proposed move to Ghana - she (a white Mental Health nurse) is going herself on holiday in September. She has been invited to go with a Ghanaian colleague from the Gracefield Gardens establishment.
Then she will see what it is like to be in a country where the second language is English and consequently it is largely uncorrupted by rap culture.  Where everyone goes to church on Sunday. And moreover if someone nicks something from your hotel room there is a substantial chance you will get it back if you ask whether anyone noticed this whatever it is that has gone missing.
A different world - and in many ways a better world.


----------



## Kanda (Jul 6, 2012)

It is a different world. I've been to Ghana, Nigeria, sierra leone etc etc etc.. What was your point though?


----------



## CH1 (Jul 6, 2012)

Kanda said:


> It is a different world. I've been to Ghana, Nigeria, sierra leone etc etc etc.. What was your point though?


I am not drunk. Just not on benefit, but have more than enough savings - so when they want me to do a CV and apply to stack shelves and I laugh they treat me as mad.
If I was in Ghana I would be respected - and the fact that I was "independently wealthy" would be a plus point.
Here they don't know what to do. "Customers" have to be engaged with - and given medication.
A mad polymath with independent wealth confuses them as much as it confuses YOU


----------



## Kanda (Jul 6, 2012)

CH1 said:


> I am not drunk. Just not on benefit, but have more than enough savings - so when they want me to do a CV and apply to stack shelves and I laugh they treat me as mad.
> If I was in Ghana I would be respected - and the fact that I was "independently wealthy" would be a plus point.
> Here they don't know what to do. "Customers" have to be engaged with - and given medication.
> A mad polymath with independent wealth confuses them as much as it confuses YOU



Why would you be respected if you were in Ghana?

Sorry, I have had a few beers but am struggling to get wtf you are going on about!

I'm not confused by the way, simply agog....


----------



## teuchter (Jul 6, 2012)




----------



## teuchter (Jul 6, 2012)

CH1 said:


> A mad polymath


 
I'm afraid that a genuine mad polymath would never self-describe themselves as such. Sorry.

Have to say, I don't really know what you're going on about most of the time either. I can picture you as a certain kind of local politician though.


----------



## ddraig (Jul 6, 2012)

no drop in slots or phone number??? 
or please pop in on a Tuesday between 12-2 (do check no royalty or funding bodies are around first)


----------



## editor (Jul 6, 2012)

teuchter said:


> View attachment 20855


Oh, is that what that bit of paper is? It's so small I thought it was something to do with their 21 hour/7 days a week late late licence application.

Still, it's a start - and that's good - albeit a seriously half-arsed one that most people are unlikely to notice.

I find it weird how a company so savy when it comes to funding and promotion become so useless at the Angel. How hard would it be to make a readable A0 sized poster and actually include some information about what their "varied programme of events" are? I mean, who'd want to go out of their way to get 'involved' in something when they haven't the slightest idea what it is?


----------



## teuchter (Jul 6, 2012)

ddraig said:


> no drop in slots or phone number???
> or please pop in on a Tuesday between 12-2 (do check no royalty or funding bodies are around first)


 
It's terrible, isn't it? People doing stuff for free and then not having a phone number that people can ring them on at any time of day.


----------



## teuchter (Jul 6, 2012)

editor said:


> How hard would it be to


 to please you? Essentially impossible.


----------



## ddraig (Jul 6, 2012)

teuchter said:


> It's terrible, isn't it? People doing stuff for free and then not having a phone number that people can ring them on at any time of day.


 out of the goodness of their 'ground up' 'non elitist' hearts! *puke


----------



## ddraig (Jul 6, 2012)

teuchter said:


> to please you? Essentially impossible.


 grow up


----------



## editor (Jul 6, 2012)

teuchter said:


> to please you? Essentially impossible.


So you think they couldn't have done a better job of telling the local community what they're about than that little bit of coloured paper in the window?

Don't ever get into promotion. You clearly haven't a clue.


----------



## Badgers (Jul 6, 2012)

I am going. Can't afford to waste £5 so going to trade a mime for entry. You need to speak these people's language to get what you want. Will write a full report for this thread.


----------



## editor (Jul 6, 2012)

Badgers said:


> I am going. Can't afford to waste £5 so going to trade a mime for entry. You need to speak these people's language to get what you want. Will write a full report for this thread.


Can you film it and communicate your thoughts  through the medium of mime?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 6, 2012)

Kanda said:


> Yes. We know.


 
But how, Kanda? How do we know? It's not like yer man is constantly telling us that he used to be a local politician, is it, so how do we know?


----------



## Kanda (Jul 6, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> But how, Kanda? How do we know? It's not like yer man is constantly telling us that he used to be a local politician, is it, so how do we know?



Well, I don't scour every post but I think it's been mentioned enough times... How would I come to that conclusion otherwise?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 6, 2012)

Kanda said:


> Well, I don't scour every post but I think it's been mentioned enough times... How would I come to that conclusion otherwise?


 
Sarcasm, man! Sarcasm!! 

Get your detector updated!!!


----------



## Kanda (Jul 6, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Sarcasm, man! Sarcasm!!
> 
> Get your detector updated!!!



Just woke up... Oops.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 6, 2012)

Kanda said:


> Just woke up... Oops.


----------



## nagapie (Jul 6, 2012)

My students, many of whom live in Peckham and come from deprived backgrounds, liked the little short on Peckham. They thought it was quite positive, which usually reporting on Peckham isn't. Although they snorted at the reporter saying it feels a world away from the rest of London as it's the epitome of much of London. 

Nothing else to add, can't be arsed to read the thread properly, as earlier today.


----------



## CH1 (Jul 7, 2012)

Kanda said:


> Why would you be respected if you were in Ghana?


Because I am Obroni. And even if I do not make sense they know it could be an important thought that might bear study.


----------



## editor (Jul 9, 2012)

That barely-readable, hopelessly vague scrap of the paper in the window has already disappeared. It was gone by Saturday night.

Anyone would think that they're not actually even _slightly _interested in the local community getting involved at all at this rate!


----------



## Badgers (Jul 9, 2012)

editor said:
			
		

> That barely-readable, hopelessly vague scrap of the paper in the window has already disappeared. It was gone by Saturday night.
> 
> Anyone would think that they're not actually even slightly interested in the local community getting involved at all at this rate!



You took it didn't you?


----------



## TruXta (Jul 9, 2012)

Badgers said:


> You took it didn't you?


 
Ed wanted to make _damned sure_ the local community wasn't getting involved.


----------



## editor (Jul 9, 2012)

Badgers said:


> You took it didn't you?


Yes. I used my awesome mind powers to make it float off the inside window and up the chimney.


----------



## editor (Jul 9, 2012)

TruXta said:


> Ed wanted to make _damned sure_ the local community wasn't getting involved.


I don't think they need my help on that score.

Despite trousering* _obtaining_ over £130,000 in public cash for their various ventures, it seems that posting up a readable, informative poster remains beyond the grasp of the Brick Box.

I like to help though, so here's a handy guide for them: http://www.wikihow.com/Make-a-Poster

(*edited for clarity)


----------



## teuchter (Jul 9, 2012)

editor said:


> Despite trousering over a £130,000 in public cash for their various ventures, it seems that posting up a readable, informative poster remains beyond the grasp of the Brick Box.


 
So you are alleging that they have misappropriated some of that £130,000?


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 9, 2012)

He likes the word trousering. Verbing of nouns is well tabloid


----------



## TruXta (Jul 9, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> He likes the word trousering. Verbing of nouns is well tabloid


 
Also well misleading. Which, given his great (and completely valid) concern for the possible slandering that the Windmill received lately, is somewhat... what's the word? Ironic?

Or was that libel, that the Windmill possibly suffered? Either way.


----------



## DietCokeGirl (Jul 9, 2012)

BrickBox also has an army of unpaid interns, you'd think some of them would be keen to add PR to their CV.


----------



## TruXta (Jul 9, 2012)

DietCokeGirl said:


> BrickBox also has an army of unpaid interns, you'd think some of them would be keen to add PR to their CV.


 
They do? Have interns I mean.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Jul 9, 2012)

DietCokeGirl said:


> BrickBox also has an army of unpaid interns, you'd think some of them would be keen to add PR to their CV.


 
Brilliant. Just when the thread looked like it might be tailing off.


----------



## DietCokeGirl (Jul 9, 2012)

Adverised all over the net, and on their site "...Interns are given more responsibility for specific areas they are interested in, and also gain general hands-on arts management experience. Interns are asked to commit to 2-3 days each week for a 3 month period. We advertise our internships on Twitter, Facebook, this website, and through many different jobs sites. 
We are currently recruiting for interns in marketing and PR, technical support, business administration, graphic design, 3D/set design, and finance..."


----------



## TruXta (Jul 9, 2012)

Well then, why DON'T their interns do a bit of community PR? Starting with editor. Put a poster in his  living room.


----------



## editor (Jul 9, 2012)

teuchter said:


> So you are alleging that they have misappropriated some of that £130,000?


Wow. That's a particularly unpleasant and malicious piece of wild and gross misrepresentation there. I suggest you exercise caution before posting up any further groundless slurs.

The point I was clearly making is that some people may find it bit odd that a company that clearly has great skills in putting its case forward and promoting itself still seems singularly unable to produce even a single, basic, readable poster in the window. I certainly find it a little odd.

Brick Box like to use words like 'community' and 'accessibility' to describe their venture, yet I'd imagine that what goes on behind the blacked out the windows of the Angel would remains a complete mystery to many in the local community.


----------



## editor (Jul 9, 2012)

TruXta said:


> Also well misleading.


Trousering can simply mean "to obtain" and that is how I am using it. I rather like the word, but if there is any confusion, then feel free to substitute it with 'obtain', 'get,' 'bag', 'pocket' or whatever else you like.



> *Verb*
> trouser (third-person singular simple present trousers, present participle trousering, simple past and past participle trousered)
> (transitive, UK, informal) *To put money into one's trouser pocket; to pocket.*
> 
> http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/trouser


----------



## TruXta (Jul 9, 2012)

editor said:


> Trousering can simply mean "to obtain" and that is how I am using it. I rather like the word, but if there is any confusion, then feel free to substitute it with 'obtain', 'get,' 'bag' or whatever else you like.


 
Can, but rarely does. You knew exactly what you were saying.


----------



## editor (Jul 9, 2012)

TruXta said:


> Can, but rarely does. You knew exactly what you were saying.


Yes. I'm saying they got to pocket a lot of public money, which is true. 

If I wanted to accuse them of anything, I come right out and say it, so kindly stop telling me what I'm _supposed_ to be thinking.


----------



## TruXta (Jul 9, 2012)

editor said:


> Yes. I'm saying they got to pocket a lot of public money, which is true.
> 
> If I wanted to accuse them of anything, I come right out and say it, so kindly stop telling me what I'm _supposed_ to be thinking.


 
You're saying you're unaware that the common understanding of the verb _to trouser_ is one where moneys have been appropriated in illegal or otherwise nefarious ways? Puh-lease.


----------



## editor (Jul 9, 2012)

TruXta said:


> You're saying you're unaware that the common understanding of the verb _to trouser_ is one where moneys have been appropriated in illegal or otherwise nefarious ways? Puh-lease.


If it gets you to shut the fuck up with your bullshit, I'll go back and change it to 'pocket.' Or 'get.' Would that make it OK for you? (*edit: I have changed it to 'obtaining' just to make it crystal clear to the pedants)

Once again: I have never ever accused Brick Box of any kind of misuse of money.


----------



## editor (Jul 9, 2012)

So, back on topic, what do people feel about their efforts thus far to reach out to the local community?


----------



## TruXta (Jul 9, 2012)

editor said:


> If it gets you to shut the fuck up with your bullshit, I'll go back and change it to 'pocket.' Or 'get.' Would that make it OK for you?
> 
> Once again: I have never ever accused Brick Box of any kind of misuse of money.


 
Woah woah. Knickers in a twist much? No need for that language. And yes, do change that language. BrickBox would probably appreciate you not misrepresenting how they get their funding, whether you did it intentionally or not.


----------



## harpo (Jul 9, 2012)

'Trouser' is used to perfect effect as a verb in the song 'Ginger Geezer' by Vivian Stanshall.  AFAIC it simply means to put in the pocket.  I was not aware of dubious connotations.


----------



## editor (Jul 9, 2012)

TruXta said:


> Woah woah. Knickers in a twist much? No need for that language. And yes, do change that language. BrickBox would probably appreciate you not misrepresenting how they get their funding, whether you did it intentionally or not.


 Apologies, but I'm just fed up with the personal digs in this thread.


----------



## Brixton Hatter (Jul 9, 2012)

I read ed's comment as "if they're clever, intelligent and businesslike enough to be be able to win lots of grants, they should have the ability to do a decent poster/ad campaign to get people involved". No more than that.


----------



## TruXta (Jul 9, 2012)

editor said:


> Apologies, but I'm just fed up with the personal digs in this thread.


 
Fair fucks. OTOH the fact that you've (IMVHO) gone to great lengths to paint Brickbox in as bad a light as possible has kinda made you fair game wrt this topic. Either way I'll leave it. The digs I mean.


----------



## editor (Jul 9, 2012)

Brixton Hatter said:


> I read ed's comment as "if they're clever, intelligent and businesslike enough to be be able to win lots of grants, they should have the ability to do a decent poster/ad campaign to get people involved".


Indeed. That is EXACTLY what I meant.

But perhaps those arguing against this point can list the things they've done in the last three months to get those living nearby interested and involved?


----------



## editor (Jul 9, 2012)

TruXta said:


> Fair fucks. OTOH the fact that you've (IMVHO) gone to great lengths to paint Brickbox in as bad a light as possible has kinda made you fair game wrt this topic. Either way I'll leave it. The digs I mean.


Truth is, I started off being quite neutral about them. Possibly even a little hopeful.

A little suspicious too perhaps, but hopeful that it may turn into what I assumed was going to be a real community arts centre - something that is much needed around this estate.

Since then they've made no perceivable effort to engage the local community, and have just put on mainly upmarket supper club jaunts and unadvertised events behind blacked out windows.

At times, it feels more like a members-only club than an inclusive community arts venture.


----------



## TruXta (Jul 9, 2012)

editor said:


> It's going to hurt me to look out of my window and see this bunch of fucking idiots prancing about in the Angel of all places.


 
I dunno, is this starting out neutral? Page 1 of this thread.


----------



## Rushy (Jul 9, 2012)

TruXta said:


> I dunno, is this starting out neutral? Page 1 of this thread.


That entirely depends upon how you interpret the term "bunch of fucking idiots".


----------



## TruXta (Jul 9, 2012)

Rushy said:


> That entirely depends upon how you interpret the term "fucking idiots".


 
Charitably as "horny people that speak a different language to me"?


----------



## Greebo (Jul 9, 2012)

editor said:


> So, back on topic, what do people feel about their efforts thus far to reach out to the local community?


Unimpressed.

Edited to add:  And I say that as somebody who made posters for charity fundraising events and then cajoled shopkeepers within a 3 mile radius into displaying them for a fortnight.  Several times a year.


----------



## TruXta (Jul 9, 2012)

Greebo said:


> Unimpressed.


 
Stop trying to derail the derail.


----------



## Rushy (Jul 9, 2012)

Sexist and racist. That's all I have to say.

About everything.


----------



## Badgers (Jul 9, 2012)

Rushy said:
			
		

> Sexist and racist. That's all I have to say.
> 
> About everything.



Old git ^


----------



## Rushy (Jul 9, 2012)

Badgers said:


> Old git ^


That's right. Thanks. I forgot ageist.

Sexist, racist and ageist.
Boycot this thread.


----------



## editor (Jul 9, 2012)

TruXta said:


> I dunno, is this starting out neutral? Page 1 of this thread.


And now some context: that comment was about the "fops and dandies in the Opium Den" who were going into a "Hysteria Treatment Room" and then off to "do something dark in the cellars."

I was referring to that one night, and, yes, I stand by those comments. Fucking idiots.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 9, 2012)

Why are they dickheads? Sounds like fun.


----------



## editor (Jul 9, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> Why are they dickheads? Sounds like fun.


Not sure if they'll have the unlimited funnel of frozen roasted potatoes on tap for you, though.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 9, 2012)

Have you never been to a themed fancy dress party?


----------



## editor (Jul 9, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> Have you never been to a themed fancy dress party?


I do believe this discussion has been well and truly had many moons ago. 

But let's get right back up to date: what do you think of Brick Box's efforts to engage and inform the local community so far?


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 9, 2012)

I think they can do what they want, just as long as they drop the bumf about street drinkers.


----------



## boohoo (Jul 9, 2012)

All this stuff about internships can be misleading. You have to get people who actually want to be involved and do want to do PR. I've had a keen volunteer who wanted to sort out the events for the mural project which was great as I was expecting to have 2012 looking after a baby. However, life got in her way and from November to now she's been out of the picture meaning I've had to organise events (which means a lot I have wanted to do has gone out of the window. 

Maybe they have a good fundraiser but no-one with the intelligence to engage the community outside of twitter and facebook,etc. I have met groups that fail to engage the internet audience because they only do snail mail.


----------



## TruXta (Jul 9, 2012)

editor said:


> And now some context: that comment was about the "fops and dandies in the Opium Den" who were going into a "Hysteria Treatment Room" and then off to "do something dark in the cellars."
> 
> I was referring to that one night, and, yes, I stand by those comments. Fucking idiots.


 
Yes, I know. You're perfectly entitled to think they're fucking idiots btw. I can see why to an extent. What you're not entitled to is to arrogate for yourself any semblance of neutrality, _on this thread_. You've been anything but. Even from the start.

As for the question you're posing - it rather depends how you define _the local community_ doesn't it? Going back to page 1 (or 2 mebbe) Kanda says you're micro-zoning Brixton. I'll have to agree. While the immediate, stones-throw area isn't the hoity-toitiest a mere 5 minutes away plenty of local, long established residents are well off enough to easily afford a 40 quid night, or a 5 quid for a walking around??outrage! night. I should know, I live on one of the streets with the highest house prices in the area (Sudbourne Rd). And I'll bet there's a good few people living within your manor that could afford this too, if they were at all interested.

However, taking your question at face value, and granting that I've not been in Brixton since March and can only go on this thread, it doesn't seem like they've done a very good job of advertising physically/locally, no.


----------



## editor (Jul 9, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> I think they can do what they want, just as long as they drop the bumf about street drinkers.


Not much of an inclusive community arts venture if they're only doing what_ they_ want, no?


----------



## editor (Jul 9, 2012)

TruXta said:


> However, taking your question at face value, and granting that I've not been in Brixton since March and can only go on this thread, it doesn't seem like they've done a very good job of advertising physically/locally, no.


 Which then begs the question: why have they made no apparent effort at all? 

And that, I believe, is the rub.


----------



## TruXta (Jul 9, 2012)

editor said:


> Which then begs the question: why have they made no apparent effort at all?
> 
> And that, I believe, is the rub.


 
A worthy question, for sure. And TBH I was a bit disappointed with the answers given by Rosie(?) earlier. It's dead easy to do a few posters and fliers. I bet if they asked nicely even you would put one or two up on your estate.

Still, you're pretending to speak for the local community, when you're really not, at least not in any sense of local community that includes long-term residents of *Brixton* rather than just your immediate surroundings. Like it or not, the area is a lot more affluent than it was just 5 years ago.


----------



## Badgers (Jul 9, 2012)

Has anyone actually been in yet? I know people have looked and stuff but nobody on Urban risked a fiver? I am going to do so.


----------



## TruXta (Jul 9, 2012)

Badgers said:


> Has anyone actually been in yet? I know people have looked and stuff but nobody on Urban risked a fiver? I am going to do so.


----------



## teuchter (Jul 9, 2012)

editor said:


> Wow. That's a particularly unpleasant and malicious piece of wild and gross misrepresentation there. I suggest you exercise caution before posting up any further groundless slurs.
> 
> The point I was clearly making is that some people may find it bit odd that a company that clearly has great skills in putting its case forward and promoting itself still seems singularly unable to produce even a single, basic, readable poster in the window. I certainly find it a little odd.


 
Why didn't you just say that, then? Why mention a specific amount of "public money" and make no effort to explain that none of that money was anything to do with the ex-Angel project?

Don't you think that someone who didn't know anything about the background, maybe, just maybe might take it to mean that they'd been given £130,000 for projects including this Angel project, and that that's why you were so worked up about the poster/lack of poster? Especially when you used the word "trousering"?

I see you've already retracted the "trousering" bit - perhaps you could edit the post with a "clarification" about the money too.


----------



## editor (Jul 9, 2012)

teuchter said:


> Why didn't you just say that, then? Why mention a specific amount of "public money" and make no effort to explain that none of that money was anything to do with the ex-Angel project?


Because that would be incorrect. The Angel project is run by Brick Box, and Brick Box have been in receipt of substantial sums of public funding. That funding has helped build up their brand, infrastructure, contacts, and operating skills and some of that has been transferred to the Angel project. That is why, for example, the Angel project is listed as being an integral part of their website and not on a separate site elsewhere. I've no idea why you're finding this so hard to grasp, tbh, or why you keep trying to twist it into something else. Most odd.

Anyway, so how do you think they've done in reaching out to the local community and getting them interested and involved in the project in the last three months? Reckon one little hand written poster in the window for a few days was more than enough, and all a 'community' arts venture needs to do?


----------



## editor (Jul 9, 2012)

TruXta said:


> A worthy question, for sure. And TBH I was a bit disappointed with the answers given by Rosie(?) earlier. It's dead easy to do a few posters and fliers. I bet if they asked nicely even you would put one or two up on your estate.


Indeed it is. And yet they still show no interest in doing so and after not bothering for such a long time, it's dificult not to reach a rather damning conclusion about their motives.


TruXta said:


> Still, you're pretending to speak for the local community, when you're really not, at least not in any sense of local community that includes long-term residents of *Brixton* rather than just your immediate surroundings. Like it or not, the area is a lot more affluent than it was just 5 years ago.


I'm not pretending to speak for anyone other than myself, although as a long term resident and member of the Residents Association, I do get to hear quite a few opinions, some of which I've put forward here.


----------



## TruXta (Jul 9, 2012)

editor said:


> Indeed it is. And yet they still show no interest in doing so and after not bothering for such a long time, it's dificult not to reach a rather damning conclusion about their motives.
> 
> I'm not pretending to speak for anyone other than myself, although as a long term resident and member of the Residents Association, I do get to hear quite a few opinions.


 
_Pretending_ was lazily and perhaps incorrectly put. But as a long term resident and member of *a* Residents Association, you should be more aware than most of the tremendous social, economic and cultural changes that Brixton is undergoing. Simply put, your idea of _what_ and _who_ the community is is no more valid than that of people with more money and more expensive tastes than yourself. What you're saying is that locals who can afford a 40 quid dinner night aren't part of the local community, or, at the very least, they're not someone you would bother listening to wrt Brickbox/ex-Angel.

By all means slag them and their taste off, but if you imply that you're speaking for the wider community, which, again IMVHO you have implied, then you're simply deluding yourself. This thread, featuring several local voices contrary to your own, should be ample proof of that.


----------



## editor (Jul 9, 2012)

TruXta said:


> Simply put, your idea of _what_ and _who_ the community is is no more valid than that of people with more money and more expensive tastes than yourself. What you're saying is that locals who can afford a 40 quid dinner night aren't part of the local community, or, at the very least, they're not someone you would bother listening to wrt Brickbox/ex-Angel.


But by hosting what are essentially secret, private events for those in the know, I don't think they're really reaching out to the community. Some friends of mine went to the first £40 jaunt and said almost all the people they met weren't even from Brixton - which would be fine if it wasn't for the 'inclusive community arts' guff.


TruXta said:


> By all means slag them and their taste off, but if you imply that you're speaking for the wider community, which, again IMVHO you have implied, then you're simply deluding yourself. This thread, featuring several local voices contrary to your own, should be ample proof of that.


Who's been there from here, then?


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 9, 2012)

editor said:


> Not much of an inclusive community arts venture if they're only doing what_ they_ want, no?


No, it might be best if they stop crowing about that.


----------



## editor (Jul 9, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> No, it might be best if they stop crowing about that.


But that's their entire _raison d'être!_


----------



## TruXta (Jul 9, 2012)

editor said:


> But by hosting what are *essentially secret, private events* for those in the know, I don't think they're really reaching out to the community.* Some friends of mine went to the first £40 jaunt* and said almost all the people they met weren't even from Brixton - which would be fine if it wasn't for the 'inclusive community arts' guff.
> Who's been there from here, then?


 
I hope you see the tension there?

As for who's been there, apart from your mates I wouldn't know.  That's not what I meant tho. My point was that several people in this thread, local long-term residents, have disagreed that what Brickbox does in the old Angel pub is all that bad. Sure, they've overegged the pudding wrt their PR spiel (like most artists do, and an accusation that pretty much any promoter needs to face head on), they could surely do better at engaging their immediate neighbours... etc etc.

And for the record, you STILL insist on calling these nights _£40 jaunts_, when in fact you can get in for a fiver. It's like when mates say "I can't afford to go out to Offline" - I say "you don't have to drink double vodkas all night, have a lime and soda". No?


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 9, 2012)

editor said:


> But that's their entire _raison d'être!_



I mean the bit about them being truly inclusive. They don't really want to let street drinkers in and why should they?


----------



## TruXta (Jul 9, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> I mean the bit about them being truly inclusive. They don't really want to let street drinkers in and why should they?


 
Why shouldn't they? Lots of street drinkers are quite interesting people. Some of the time at least.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 9, 2012)

Street drinkers are drinking on the street for a reason


----------



## TruXta (Jul 9, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> Street drinkers are drinking on the street for a reason


 
They're lonely, it's cheap, they're a bit eccentric? Lots of reasons, ape.


----------



## TruXta (Jul 9, 2012)

If anyone wants to see something truly cringeworthy that BB are involved in, surely this is it http://schoolforcreativestartups.com/ ???


----------



## bluestreak (Jul 9, 2012)

teuchter said:


> Why didn't you just say that, then? Why mention a specific amount of "public money" and make no effort to explain that none of that money was anything to do with the ex-Angel project?
> 
> Don't you think that someone who didn't know anything about the background, maybe, just maybe might take it to mean that they'd been given £130,000 for projects including this Angel project, and that that's why you were so worked up about the poster/lack of poster? Especially when you used the word "trousering"?
> 
> I see you've already retracted the "trousering" bit - perhaps you could edit the post with a "clarification" about the money too.


 
oh god you're so fucking dull you hurt my eyes.  give it a rest.


----------



## editor (Jul 9, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> Street drinkers are drinking on the street for a reason


Because the pub they used to drink in has now been closed, bought up by a property developer and is currently hosting unadvertised events?

Or because it's part of a cultural thing?


----------



## editor (Jul 9, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> I mean the bit about them being truly inclusive. They don't really want to let street drinkers in and why should they?


Because they said that they like to hang out where the street drinkers are?


----------



## TruXta (Jul 9, 2012)

editor said:


> Because the pub they used to drink in has now been closed, bought up by a property developer and is currently hosting unadvertised events?
> 
> Or because it's part of a cultural thing?


 
Again with the misrepresenting... it's not unadvertised, it's badly advertised, and probably mostly advertised to people who're already following them on twitter, on their mailing-list etc. It's hardly the first time a smaller event organiser hasn't bothered much with paper ads.


----------



## boohoo (Jul 9, 2012)

TruXta said:


> If anyone wants to see something truly cringeworthy that BB are involved in, surely this is it http://schoolforcreativestartups.com/ ???


 
Why is it a bad idea?


----------



## TruXta (Jul 9, 2012)

boohoo said:


> Why is it a bad idea?


 
3 grand for this seems like a terrible idea for any struggling creatives. It's for the well off, the people who can afford to lose money doing this kinda thing.


----------



## editor (Jul 9, 2012)

TruXta said:


> Again with the misrepresenting... it's not unadvertised, it's badly advertised, and probably mostly advertised to people who're already following them on twitter, on their mailing-list etc. It's hardly the first time a smaller event organiser hasn't bothered much with paper ads.


So it is effectively unadvertised to anyone who's not already 'in the know' about who they are, what they're doing and where to find their website/Twitter account.

Of course, if they'd put a poster up in the window....


----------



## TruXta (Jul 9, 2012)

editor said:


> So it is effectively unadvertised to anyone who's not already 'in the know' about who they are, what they're doing and where to find their website/Twitter account.
> 
> Of course, if they'd put a poster up in the window....


 
All those caveats hardly make it unadvertised, only advertised in a way you don't approve of.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 9, 2012)

TruXta said:


> Can, but rarely does. You knew exactly what you were saying.


 
How would you know, you damned Johnny Foreigner? Are you some sort of Euro-meaning checker?


----------



## TruXta (Jul 9, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> How would you know, you damned Johnny Foreigner? Are you some sort of Euro-meaning checker?


 
How much would that pay approx. p.a.? I've only got a job for another 3 months or so.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 9, 2012)

TruXta said:


> You're saying you're unaware that the common understanding of the verb _to trouser_ is one where moneys have been appropriated in illegal or otherwise nefarious ways? Puh-lease.


 
You're over-egging your pudding. That's *an* understanding. The "common" one is of "trousering" a bonus. See any issue of _Private Eye_ printed in the last 30 years for examples. The worst it implies is that the recipient may not deserve it, not that they engage in illegal activity.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 9, 2012)

TruXta said:


> How much would that pay approx. p.a.? I've only got a job for another 3 months or so.


 
You think I'm telling you, so that you can hop on the Brussels gravy-train? 

Not likely!  I'm off to join my good friend Wing Commander Nigel Farage! Toodle-pip!


----------



## TruXta (Jul 9, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> You're over-egging your pudding. That's *an* understanding. The "common" one is of "trousering" a bonus. See any issue of _Private Eye_ printed in the last 30 years for examples. The worst it implies is that the recipient may not deserve it, not that they engage in illegal activity.


 
Allow me to do an Ed Special:

*trouser  verb*










/ˈtraʊ.zər/
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




/ˈtraʊ.zɚ/[T]

*Definition*
informal   to get a large amount of money, especially in an unfair or illegal way.

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/british/trouser_2


----------



## TruXta (Jul 9, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> You're over-egging your pudding. That's *an* understanding. The "common" one is of "trousering" a bonus. See any issue of _Private Eye_ printed in the last 30 years for examples. The worst it implies is that the recipient may not deserve it, not that they engage in illegal activity.


 
Either way the implication was that they hadn't earned their funding. Which is arguable. Except that Ed didn't even come close to bothering with an arguement.


----------



## boohoo (Jul 9, 2012)

TruXta said:


> 3 grand for this seems like a terrible idea for any struggling creatives. It's for the well off, the people who can afford to lose money doing this kinda thing.


 
ah... yer, I get your point. I'm tempted to go along and see if I qualify for the cheap option.


----------



## editor (Jul 9, 2012)

TruXta said:


> All those caveats hardly make it unadvertised, only advertised in a way you don't approve of.


It's got nothing to do with what I 'approve' of. It's about the odd way that an 'inclusive community arts' venture seem so reluctant to even put up a poster to tell people what's going on. 

But you tell me: how might a passer-by, a local resident or even one of thse street drinkers they're so fond of find out about these events then? Any idea?


----------



## editor (Jul 9, 2012)

TruXta said:


> Either way the implication was that they hadn't earned their funding. Which is arguable. Except that Ed didn't even come close to bothering with an arguement.


That's because the Ed never made that claim and has explained it several times. So why make up stuff?


----------



## TruXta (Jul 9, 2012)

boohoo said:


> ah... yer, I get your point. I'm tempted to go along and see if I qualify for the cheap option.


 
You mean the "cheap" option, of 600 quid for 10 days of courses? Not counting access to the _Titans of Industry_. Seriously, who the fuck came up with this shit? Seriously, tell me, I've got a business proposition for them.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 9, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> Why are they dickheads? Sounds like fun.


 
You do realise that "doing something dark in the cellar" means they haven't got any working shitters, don't you?


----------



## TruXta (Jul 9, 2012)

editor said:


> It's got nothing to do with what I 'approve' of. It's about the odd way that an 'inclusive community arts' venture seem so reluctant to even put up a poster to tell people what's going on.
> 
> But you tell me: how might a passer-by, a local resident or even one of thse street drinkers they're so fond of find out about these events then? Any idea?


 
I already said it was badly advertised. You however claimed it was not advertised, which is patently false. Cue cries of "pedantry/semantics/words".


----------



## TruXta (Jul 9, 2012)

editor said:


> That's because the Ed never made that claim and has explained it several times. So why make up stuff?


 
"Implication" and "claim" are not co-extensive terms. See my previous post.


----------



## editor (Jul 9, 2012)

TruXta said:


> "Implication" and "claim" are not co-extensive terms. See my previous post.


If you want to know what I think, try asking me directly instead of suggesting what you _think_ I might be implying. Ta.


----------



## boohoo (Jul 9, 2012)

TruXta said:


> You mean the "cheap" option, of 600 quid for 10 days of courses? Not counting access to the _Titans of Industry_. Seriously, who the fuck came up with this shit? Seriously, tell me, I've got a business proposition for them.


 
I would expect great things of a course at that cost. Having gone for the cheap arse option for things, often I have got what I paid for.


----------



## editor (Jul 9, 2012)

TruXta said:


> I already said it was badly advertised. You however claimed it was not advertised, which is patently false.


Where was this then?


----------



## TruXta (Jul 9, 2012)

editor said:


> If you want to know what I think, try asking me directly instead of suggesting what you _think_ I might be implying. Ta.


 
I don't need to ask, you've made that clear already. I accept that you didn't *mean* to imply that they got funding illegitimately. I accept that because I believe your heart is in the right place. That's a different matter to saying that what you did write implied that they did get funds by nefarious/unfair/illegal means. You might not have meant it, but the implication was there. I'm not a mind-reader, all I have is the words on the screen.


----------



## TruXta (Jul 9, 2012)

editor said:


> Where was this then?


 
Posts 1257 and 1261.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 9, 2012)

TruXta said:


> Either way the implication was that they hadn't earned their funding. Which is arguable. Except that Ed didn't even come close to bothering with an arguement.


 
Well, seeing as we're worrying about the meaning of words here, you don't "earn" funding, you're awarded it on the strength of the proposal/plan/bid you submit.


----------



## editor (Jul 9, 2012)

TruXta said:


> Posts 1257 and 1261.


#1257 said that the event unadvertised* to the street drinkers*
#1262 said that it was "*effectively* unadvertised *to anyone who's not already 'in the know'"*

That does not match your claim in the slightest and you know it, and I'm getting really bored and fed up with your attempts to twist my words.


----------



## Crispy (Jul 9, 2012)

My sincere admiration and encouragement to you all.


----------



## Badgers (Jul 9, 2012)

Crispy said:
			
		

> My sincere admiration and encouragement to you all.



Very inclusive to include 'all' in these kind words.


----------



## TruXta (Jul 9, 2012)

Crispy said:


> My sincere admiration and encouragement to you all.


 
Thanks.


editor said:


> #1257 said that the event unadvertised* to the street drinkers*
> #1262 said that it was "*effectively* unadvertised *to anyone who's not already 'in the know'"*
> 
> That does not match your claim in the slightest and you know it, and I'm getting really bored and fed up with your attempts to twist my words.


 
Post 1257 did no such thing - unless you're unusually inept at expressing yourself. AFAIK you're usually pretty handy with words. As for 1262 your caveats merely underlined the implicit claim that noone in the community could possible have been keeping tabs on a local business that has been part of the trading scene for what... close to 3 years?


----------



## TruXta (Jul 9, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Well, seeing as we're worrying about the meaning of words here, you don't "earn" funding, you're awarded it on the strength of the proposal/plan/bid you submit.


 
Yes, you earn it.


----------



## boohoo (Jul 9, 2012)

Badgers said:


> Very inclusive to include 'all' in these kind words.


 
When he says 'all' he actually means only local 'all'.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 9, 2012)

TruXta said:


> Yes, you earn it.


 
No, you don't. If submitting a bid earned you anything, every fucker who submitted a bid would earn something, wouldn't they?


----------



## TruXta (Jul 9, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> No, you don't. If submitting a bid earned you anything, every fucker who submitted a bid would earn something, wouldn't they?


 
Come come, my dear ursine, do not be obtuse. It's not the submission that creates merit, it's the strength of the submission. You do have to submit the fucker to earn it.


----------



## editor (Jul 9, 2012)

I've got to do some work now, but just in case anyone was thinking of walking past the pub to find out what was going on, I can advise you that, as usual, the building has blacked out windows and there is absolutely no information on display at all.

So, if you'd like to get involved, be sure to track down the appropriate Twitter stream or get to know the right people. Or maybe join a supper club.

Ain't community arts_ great?!_


----------



## TruXta (Jul 9, 2012)

editor said:


> I've got to do some work now, but just in case anyone was thinking of walking past the pub to find out what was going on, I can advise you that, as usual, the building has blacked out windows and there is absolutely no information on display at all.
> 
> So, if you'd like to get involved, be sure to track down the appropriate Twitter stream or get to know the right people. Or maybe join a supper club.
> 
> Ain't community arts_ great?!_


 
I don't think there's anything on tonight. As I'm sure you'd have known if you had looked it up. Chances are if it's dark and quiet, it's closed, ya know?


----------



## editor (Jul 9, 2012)

TruXta said:


> I don't think there's anything on tonight. As I'm sure you'd have known if you had looked it up. Chances are if it's dark and quiet, it's closed, ya know?


It's dark when there's stuff going on as well, on account of the blacked out windows. 

I've no idea if there's anything on tonight or most other times, but then I'm not in the right clique, I guess.

Gotta love these inclusive community events!


----------



## lighterthief (Jul 9, 2012)

Is brixtonbuzz connected to u75?


----------



## TruXta (Jul 9, 2012)

editor said:


> It's dark when there's stuff going on as well, on account of the blacked out windows.
> 
> I've no idea if there's anything on tonight or most other times, but then I'm not in the right clique, I guess.
> 
> Gotta love these inclusive community events!


 
Is it always quiet too? I know you're an aging drummer and all.. 

Nah. Point taken. They can do better. Then again so can you.


----------



## teuchter (Jul 9, 2012)

editor said:


> I've got to do some work now, but just in case anyone was thinking of walking past the pub to find out what was going on, I can advise you that, as usual, the building has blacked out windows and there is absolutely no information on display at all.
> 
> So, if you'd like to get involved, be sure to track down the appropriate Twitter stream or get to know the right people. Or maybe join a supper club.


 
...and we're off again. Many people may take the meaning of this to be that you can only get in touch by finding an obscure Twitter stream or knowing the right people or signing up to an expensive club.

Whereas the reality is that that is entirely untrue.

But it's not the Editor's fault for the way he's chosen to write those words in a sentence like that.

It's the fault of the *reader* for, erm, reading it, and twisting Editor's words in their mind until it seems like they are an inaccurate representation of the reality.


----------



## editor (Jul 9, 2012)

lighterthief said:


> Is brixtonbuzz connected to u75?


Yes, why?


----------



## editor (Jul 9, 2012)

teuchter said:


> ...and we're off again. Many people may take the meaning of this to be that you can only get in touch by finding an obscure Twitter stream or knowing the right people or signing up to an expensive club.


So tell me how a passer-by or a local resident might know what's going on, please.

Thanks.


----------



## teuchter (Jul 9, 2012)

lighterthief said:


> Is brixtonbuzz connected to u75?


It's also run by Editor.


----------



## editor (Jul 9, 2012)

teuchter said:


> It's also run by Editor.


That's not strictly true, I helped set it up with another guy to help smaller venues get exposure and also to provide a useful free listings service for locals. Why are we talking about this?


----------



## lighterthief (Jul 9, 2012)

Only that I googled 354 coldharbour lane twitter and this was the first result I got: http://www.brixtonbuzz.com/ai1ec_event/a-curative-tonic-at-354-coldharbour-lane-arts/?instance_id=


----------



## editor (Jul 9, 2012)

lighterthief said:


> Only that I googled 354 coldharbour lane twitter and this was the first result I got: http://www.brixtonbuzz.com/ai1ec_event/a-curative-tonic-at-354-coldharbour-lane-arts/?instance_id=


Yes, the guy who does the listings tries to list as much as he can, but seeing as Brick Box have never bothered to send us anything, I think that's the only thing that's ever been listed.

I guess maybe they're not interested in having their listings on Brixton Buzz.


----------



## editor (Jul 9, 2012)

Incidentally, if you type in '354 coldharbour lane', the first result is my piece on the old pub, and then two pages by their property developer owners Lexadon (who are "are excited and eager to start working on this development"), and then this thread.


----------



## TruXta (Jul 9, 2012)

editor said:


> Incidentally, if you type in '354 coldharbour lane', the first result is my piece on the old pub, and then two pages by their property developer owners Lexadon (who are "are excited and eager to start working on this development"), and then this thread.


 
Which brings us back to the point that Brick Box are shit at local community advertising. Which is not nearly the same as not advertising at all. Or have twisted your words again?


----------



## teuchter (Jul 9, 2012)

editor said:


> So tell me how a passer-by or a local resident might know what's going on, please.
> 
> Thanks.


 
The Brick Box facebook page, for example.

Before you go off on one, *I agree they could publicise themselves better and it would be a good idea to have some info on the building.*

My issue is with the suggestion that you have to be in some kind of exclusive club to know what they are up to. They have a presence in the market, which anyone passing by can see and if they are interested in the kind of stuff Brick Box do, it's hardly difficult to look them up on facebook.


----------



## editor (Jul 9, 2012)

TruXta said:


> Or have twisted your words again?


LOL.


----------



## TruXta (Jul 9, 2012)

editor said:


> LOL.


 
Don't mock the foreigner. Racist!


----------



## teuchter (Jul 9, 2012)

Here's the URL for facebook:

www.facebook.com


----------



## editor (Jul 9, 2012)

teuchter said:


> The Brick Box facebook page, for example.


Please tell me how a passer by might get to know of the existence of this Facebook page.

You are aware that the name Brick Box appears nowhere on the building, so by what powers would they know what Facebook page to look for?


----------



## TruXta (Jul 9, 2012)

editor said:


> Please tell me how a passer by might get to know of the existence of this Facebook page.
> 
> You are aware that the name Brick Box appears nowhere on the building, so by what powers would they know what Facebook page to look for?


 
By the powers of reason?


----------



## editor (Jul 9, 2012)

teuchter said:


> Here's the URL for facebook:
> www.facebook.com


So should they keep randomly putting in addresses until they come across the right one?  And what happens if they're not Facebook or Twitter?

Fuck 'em, yes?


----------



## editor (Jul 9, 2012)

TruXta said:


> By the powers of reason?


Oh, do go on. Please elaborate how a passer-by might "reason" the Facebook address of a closed pub with blacked out windows and no signs.


----------



## teuchter (Jul 9, 2012)

editor said:


> Please tell me how a passer by might get to know of the existence of this Facebook page.
> 
> You are aware that the name Brick Box appears nowhere on the building, so by what powers would they know what Facebook page to look for?


 
Someone just walking past the building would not know that it has anything to do with Brick Box based purely on just looking at the building. That is correct. I never said they would.


----------



## TruXta (Jul 9, 2012)

editor said:


> Oh, do go on. Please elaborate how a passer-by might "reason" the Facebook address of a closed pub with blacked out windows and no signs.


 
You think it's out of the ordinary that people who eat at Brickbox might look at their FB pages? We've already established that the audience for their ads is limited. Please don't be obtuse.


----------



## teuchter (Jul 9, 2012)

editor said:


> I've got to do some work now, but *just in case anyone was thinking of walking past the pub to find out what was going on*, I can advise you that, as usual, the building has blacked out windows and there is absolutely no information on display at all.
> 
> So, if you'd like to get involved, be sure to track down the appropriate Twitter stream or get to know the right people. Or maybe join a supper club.
> 
> Ain't community arts_ great?!_


 
Remember, this is what you said.

This was addressed to people on the internet reading your post, in this thread, about the venue. Not to someone waling past the building knowing nothing about Brick Box.


----------



## lighterthief (Jul 9, 2012)

editor said:


> Yes, the guy who does the listings tries to list as much as he can, but seeing as Brick Box have never bothered to send us anything, I think that's the only thing that's ever been listed.
> 
> I guess maybe they're not interested in having their listings on Brixton Buzz.


Or maybe they haven't heard of Brixton buzz?  No harm in helping them spread the word?   Either way, the first page of googling just the address gives anyone enough to go on with regards to what's going on - so not difficult to "track down the appropriate twitter stream".


----------



## editor (Jul 9, 2012)

teuchter said:


> Someone just walking past the building would not know that it has anything to do with Brick Box based purely on just looking at the building. That is correct. I never said they would.


The question I asked was: "So tell me how a passer-by or a local resident might know what's going on, please."

And you responded: "The Brick Box facebook page, for example."

Seeing as there is no way for a passer-by to find out their Facebook address - or even the _name of the venue_ - you do seem to be looking a little foolish here.

Still, can we now agree that a passer-by would indeed have absolutely no idea of what's going on inside?


----------



## editor (Jul 9, 2012)

teuchter said:


> Remember, this is what you said.
> 
> This was addressed to people on the internet reading your post, in this thread, about the venue. Not to someone waling past the building knowing nothing about Brick Box.


Olympian wriggle!


----------



## TruXta (Jul 9, 2012)

editor said:


> The question I asked was: "So tell me how a passer-by or a local resident might know what's going on, please."
> 
> And you responded: "The Brick Box facebook page, for example."
> 
> ...


 
You ever try knocking on the door? Might seem insane, but it's worked wonders for me in the past.


----------



## editor (Jul 9, 2012)

lighterthief said:


> Or maybe they haven't heard of Brixton buzz?


They follow us on Twitter and have done for months.


----------



## editor (Jul 9, 2012)

TruXta said:


> You ever try knocking on the door? Might seem insane, but it's worked wonders for me in the past.


Do you often go around knocking on the doors of blacked out buildings with no name?
How very strange.

Sorry, I've got far better things to do.


----------



## TruXta (Jul 10, 2012)

editor said:


> Do you often go around knocking on the doors of blacked out buildings with no name?
> How very strange.
> 
> Sorry, I've got far better things to do.


 
If there's a party going on? Hell yeah. Really, this is your arguement?

Anyway, I'm off, see you in October.


----------



## lighterthief (Jul 10, 2012)

editor said:


> They follow us on Twitter and have done for months.


Why not follow them?  I see Brixton buzz retweeting events from other galleries.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 10, 2012)

editor said:


> Because they said that they like to hang out where the street drinkers are?


That's the bit I think they should drop cos it's obviously bollocks


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 10, 2012)

editor said:


> So it is effectively unadvertised to anyone who's not already 'in the know' about who they are, what they're doing and where to find their website/Twitter account.
> 
> Of course, if they'd put a poster up in the window....


I don't see what's wrong with this. But the problem is Brickbox claiming that they wish to welcome just about anyone who walks in off the street. Bad move on their part.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 10, 2012)

editor said:


> Because the pub they used to drink in has now been closed, bought up by a property developer and is currently hosting unadvertised events?
> 
> Or because it's part of a cultural thing?


Fair point, though I don't think it's obligatory for those that take over a venue to try and attract people who won't spend any money in there.


----------



## teuchter (Jul 10, 2012)

editor said:


> The question I asked was: "So tell me how a passer-by or a local resident might know what's going on, please."


 
No it wasn't



editor said:


> Olympian wriggle!


 
No it's not


----------



## editor (Jul 10, 2012)

lighterthief said:


> Why not follow them?


We already do, but this is an unfunded, spare time venture that hasn't got the time or resources to trawl through every Twitter stream trying to find any events amongst all the usual guff.

Instead, we generally rely on venues making the effort to get in touch with us and forward their event details, along with any flyers and promo information. That's something the Brick Box hasn't chosen to do, but if they do decide to send us their event details, then they'll get listed (if that's what they want, of course).


----------



## boohoo (Jul 11, 2012)

editor said:


> We already do, but this is an unfunded, spare time venture that hasn't got the time or resources to trawl through every Twitter stream trying to find any events amongst all the usual guff.
> 
> Instead, we generally rely on venues making the effort to get in touch with us and forward their event details, along with any flyers and promo information. That's something the Brick Box hasn't chosen to do, but if they do decide to send us their event details, then they'll get listed (if that's what they want, of course).


 
Slightly off topic but not quite. I got the impression Brixton Buzz was all about music... if not, I'll drop you a mail about any future events I run.


----------



## editor (Jul 11, 2012)

boohoo said:


> Slightly off topic but not quite. I got the impression Brixton Buzz was all about music... if not, I'll drop you a mail about any future events I run.


It's mainly about music and clubs, but we're slowly growing to cover a wider range of events. Feel free to send in your events!


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 11, 2012)

I shall be cycling through Brixton in about half an hour. Please feel free to tweet/publicise it.


----------



## editor (Jul 11, 2012)

TruXta said:


> 3 grand for this seems like a terrible idea for any struggling creatives. It's for the well off, the people who can afford to lose money doing this kinda thing.


The good news for those who haven't got three grand rattling about in their wallets is that Lambeth are hosting a similar free event next week.
They've advertised it too, which helps.
http://www.urban75.net/forums/threa...-and-helping-the-community-in-brixton.296117/


----------



## Badgers (Jul 11, 2012)

The poster was back yesterday,


----------



## editor (Jul 11, 2012)

Badgers said:


> The poster was back yesterday,


Perhaps it's a community art piece.


----------



## Badgers (Jul 12, 2012)




----------



## editor (Jul 12, 2012)

Ah great! The vaguely-worded, barely noticeable little scrap of paper in the window that doesn't bother to explain what they actually do is now back, but this time with a chunk of the message covered up. Brilliant!

It rather begs the question: How does an organisation so adept at securing vast sums of public funding manage to become so hopelessly incompetent and inept when it comes to doing something as simple as sticking up a notice in the window?

Anyone would think, well, you know....


----------



## Badgers (Jul 12, 2012)

Thought you might enjoy it.


----------



## editor (Jul 12, 2012)

Badgers said:


> Thought you might enjoy it.


It's a thing of some beauty and a real testament to their sincere commitment to ensure that the local community are both informed and involved.


----------



## gabi (Jul 12, 2012)

Their poster's shit. But they do seem to have some fairly decent stuff coming up there.

http://www.thebrickbox.co.uk/events.html

Agreed for a 'creative' organisation they could really maybe use some time at some of their own workshops to learn how to design a poster tho.


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## Rushy (Jul 12, 2012)

The application has been resubmitted.
All the documents including some snazzy 3D views can be seen on Lambeth website here
Main change seems to be that roof terraces have been removed.

From the Design & Access statement:



> 5.3 The proposed use of the site is for a combination of residential and A4 to the
> ground floor with the public house being reinstated.


----------



## teuchter (Jul 12, 2012)




----------



## ddraig (Jul 12, 2012)

you want to grow up 

maybe you could use your 'skills' and help them?


----------



## editor (Jul 12, 2012)

Rushy said:


> The application has been resubmitted.
> All the documents including some snazzy 3D views can be seen on Lambeth website here
> Main change seems to be that roof terraces have been removed.
> 
> From the Design & Access statement:


It would be ace if a proper community pub returned. But I doubt it will.

*laughs at teuchter's fail


----------



## ddraig (Jul 12, 2012)

seriously tho teuchter, likers and all the people pointing the finger at ed for getting frustrated, do you think they are making enough effort to engage or not?
how is their shit poster in any way adequate or suitable?
what could possibly be the excuse or reason a proper poster or series of posters can't be made??


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## Yelkcub (Jul 12, 2012)

editor said:


> Do you often go around knocking on the doors of blacked out buildings with no name?


I would if strangely obsessed with the place.


----------



## ddraig (Jul 12, 2012)

titter


----------



## teuchter (Jul 12, 2012)

ddraig said:


> seriously tho teuchter, likers and all the people pointing the finger at ed for getting frustrated, do you think they are making enough effort to engage or not?
> how is their shit poster in any way adequate or suitable?
> what could possibly be the excuse or reason a proper poster or series of posters can't be made??


 
I was thinking maybe a lack of money or time. But then I realised it's more likely to be because they are too busy burning babies or something altogether more sinister involving their secret supper clubs.


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## ddraig (Jul 12, 2012)

how can knocking up a poster in word take more time?
how much does it cost?

pathetic non excuses.


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## editor (Jul 12, 2012)

teuchter said:


> I was thinking maybe a lack of money or time.


Three months to make a simple poster? LOL. Your excuses get more laughable by the minute.

As for the supposed lack of money, I calculate a A0 poster could be made for about 50p - even less when the place has access to arty, creative types, "well versed in providing transformative tools and essential inspiration in order to improve social, emotional, economic and cultural health for all."


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## teuchter (Jul 12, 2012)

Oh yes, I think something knocked up quickly in Word would be _much_ better.

Are you thinking comic sans, with some clipart?


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## ddraig (Jul 12, 2012)

teuchter said:


> Oh yes, I think something knocked up quickly in Word would be _much_ better.
> 
> Are you thinking comic sans, with some clipart?


 what is your problem?????


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## ddraig (Jul 12, 2012)

ideally it should be an A0 poster with proper bold readable fonts, failing that A2/A3 to fit in a window/on door
are you going to wriggle and poopoo that suggestion too?


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## editor (Jul 12, 2012)

teuchter said:


> Oh yes, I think something knocked up quickly in Word would be _much_ better.
> 
> Are you thinking comic sans, with some clipart?


You don't think anyone involved in an arts organisation who believe that "the arts can provide transformative tools and essential inspiration in order to improve social, emotional, economic and cultural health for all," is capable of even making a _simple poster? _In three months?!

You've lost it completely, mate.


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## teuchter (Jul 12, 2012)

Here, I made a poster online in just 2 minutes


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## ddraig (Jul 12, 2012)

teuchter said:


> Here, I made a poster online in just 2 minutes
> View attachment 21016


 are you agreeing now then then they could do that? or continuing to be a twat?
hard to tell see


----------



## editor (Jul 12, 2012)

teuchter said:


> Here, I made a poster online in just 2 minutes


Now _that's_ what I call obsessive!

Funny thing is, with each of your little jokey efforts you're actually undermining your own argument. It's not hard to make a poster at all, is it?


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## Brixton Hatter (Jul 12, 2012)

This whole thread is actually being curated by the Brickbox as the latest part of their innovative, telepathic, community-generated creative challenge series. Already teuchter has been enabled to flex his creative muscles....more will surely follow....until the inevitable Poster-Off competition which will be held at the Urban Art Fair this weekend


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## Crispy (Jul 12, 2012)

The whole thing is a piece of situationist theatre.


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## editor (Jul 12, 2012)

I hereby publicly make myself available as executive freelance creative consultant for the Brick Box's challenging 'Angel Window Poster' project.

In this role, I will be happy to assist them in the process of creating a simple, basic informative poster that will achieve the thus-far unattainable goal of passing on useful information to the local community in a clear, concise and readable manner.

If anyone from Brick Box would like to contact me with their proposed copy and design, I will be happy to edit the text so it stands some chance of actually engaging with passers-by, and advise them on how to make a poster that doesn't look like it was created by a bashful 12 year old. 

I'm not going to physically make the poster myself though because they already have a vast team of creatives at their disposal who am I'm sure will be able to find all the necessary material needed by the bins.


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## Rushy (Jul 12, 2012)

Crispy said:


> The whole thing is a piece of situationist theatre.


 
which will be reviewed in next week's Time Out as "Disturbing. But at the same time, curiously entertaining."


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## Kanda (Jul 12, 2012)

editor said:


> I hereby publicly make myself available as executive freelance creative consultant for the Brick Box's challenging 'Angel Window Poster' project.
> 
> In this role, I will be happy to assist them in the process of creating a simple, basic informative poster that will achieve the thus-far unattainable goal of passing on useful information to the local community in a clear, concise and readable manner.
> 
> ...



Why not drop them an email, they've already invited people can to.


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## editor (Jul 12, 2012)

Kanda said:


> Why not drop them an email, they've said people can do.


You can do that if you like - I've already done enough - but I'm pretty sure they'll be reading this thread anyway, what with it being #1 in Google.


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## ddraig (Jul 12, 2012)

oh come on ed! they are sooooo busy they need people to knock their door and offer them help, they are creatives and can't do lateral/logical thinking!
it is really really lazy of you not to keep knocking and wait patiently with a laptop, printer and paper until they answer and agree to let you in to help them.


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## boohoo (Jul 12, 2012)

ddraig said:


> ideally it should be an A0 poster with proper bold readable fonts, failing that A2/A3 to fit in a window/on door


 
It is A3.


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## boohoo (Jul 12, 2012)

ddraig said:


> ideally it should be an A0 poster with proper bold readable fonts, failing that A2/A3 to fit in a window/on door
> are you going to wriggle and poopoo that suggestion too?


 
It is bigger than my A4 /brixton Mural walk poster...  (has poster size envy)


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## editor (Jul 12, 2012)

boohoo said:


> It is A3.


But barely readable.
http://www.urban75.net/forums/threa...run-by-brick-box.292936/page-45#post-11338306


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## ddraig (Jul 12, 2012)

wow!  they are forgiven and their marketing is BRILLIANT!!

can you have a word and get them to make it legible?


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## boohoo (Jul 12, 2012)

ddraig said:


> wow!  they are forgiven and their marketing is BRILLIANT!!
> 
> can you have a word and get them to make it legible?


 
I haven't had a problem reading it. Poster design is quite interesting in terms of actually getting people to notice things. I always put FREE in biggest letters. Still, it hasn't been where the mural walk traffic has come from.


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## ViolentPanda (Jul 12, 2012)

teuchter said:


> Here, I made a poster online in just 2 minutes
> View attachment 21016


 
Anti-semite!


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## ViolentPanda (Jul 12, 2012)

Crispy said:


> The whole thing is a piece of situationist theatre.


 
The pastry.


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## Rushy (Jul 12, 2012)

editor said:


> You can do that if you like - I've already done enough -


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## ViolentPanda (Jul 12, 2012)

ddraig said:


> wow!  they are forgiven and their marketing is BRILLIANT!!
> 
> can you have a word and get them to make it legible?


 
Don't you understand, you peasant?  

The poster is obviously in the style of the _Art naif_ movement, which took its' lead from the writings and drawings of children!

You common people are *SO* ignorant!


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## Orang Utan (Jul 12, 2012)

I thought it was rather Shrigleyesque


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## Winot (Jul 12, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> I thought it was rather Shrigleyesque


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## ViolentPanda (Jul 13, 2012)

Winot said:


> View attachment 21028


 
That's way too legible for BB.


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## editor (Jul 13, 2012)

Great to hear that the old building is being used for "semi-pornographic photoshoots".


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## Badgers (Jul 13, 2012)

What is on tonight then?


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## TruXta (Jul 13, 2012)

Badgers said:


> What is on tonight then?


 
You going?


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## editor (Jul 13, 2012)

Badgers said:


> What is on tonight then?


The Mystery Behind The Black Curtains.
£5 to take a look. 

Possibly.


----------



## Badgers (Jul 13, 2012)

TruXta said:
			
		

> You going?



No


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## goldenecitrone (Jul 13, 2012)

editor said:


> Great to hear that the old building is being used for "semi-pornographic photoshoots".


 
How are they going to make sure their guests only have a semi?


----------



## Badgers (Jul 14, 2012)




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## ddraig (Jul 14, 2012)

srs?


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## Badgers (Jul 14, 2012)

ddraig said:
			
		

> srs?



Nah  

Just stoking the fire  I did take in in Brixton though, some time back.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 14, 2012)

editor said:


> Great to hear that the old building is being used for "semi-pornographic photoshoots".


 
TBF, that entirely depends on what "semi-pornographic" means, doesn't it? Could mean "tits, bums and pubes"-style "glamour" photography (tacky but harmless) *or* "how many different positions can I adopt to get *this* in *there*"-type explicit stuff nowadays. The former wouldn't bother me, the latter, I'd be a bit worried about passing locals getting an eyeful.


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## teuchter (Jul 14, 2012)

Whether they know it or not, the sensitive local hardworking families are lucky to have some middle-class types on the internet standing up against this kind of moral outrage on their behalf.


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## Maggot (Jul 14, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> TBF, that entirely depends on what "semi-pornographic" means, doesn't it? Could mean "tits, bums and pubes"-style "glamour" photography (tacky but harmless) *or* "how many different positions can I adopt to get *this* in *there*"-type explicit stuff nowadays. The former wouldn't bother me, the latter, I'd be a bit worried about passing locals getting an eyeful.


Now we know why the windows are blacked out.


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## ViolentPanda (Jul 14, 2012)

teuchter said:


> Whether they know it or not, the sensitive local hardworking families are lucky to have some middle-class types on the internet standing up against this kind of moral outrage on their behalf.


 
If you're calling me middle class then you are, as is so very often the case when you post, wildly incorrect.


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## ViolentPanda (Jul 14, 2012)

Maggot said:


> Now we know why the windows are blacked out.


 
Bloody spoilsports!!


----------



## boohoo (Jul 14, 2012)

teuchter said:


> Whether they know it or not, the sensitive local hardworking families are lucky to have some middle-class types aged men on the internet standing up against this kind of moral outrage on their behalf.


 
corrected for ya!


----------



## editor (Jul 14, 2012)

teuchter said:


> Whether they know it or not, the sensitive local hardworking families are lucky to have some middle-class types on the internet standing up against this kind of moral outrage on their behalf.


Has anyone asked for it to be banned? Was anyone "morally outraged"? No, of course not. It's just you making up bullshit again!

Grow up. FFS.





boohoo said:


> corrected for ya!


Oh well done! You and teuchter are simply_ made_ for each other.


----------



## snowy_again (Jul 15, 2012)

^^ are you auditioning to be Glenda Slagg?


----------



## gabi (Jul 16, 2012)

snowy_again said:


> ^^ are you auditioning to be Glenda Slagg?


 
Had to google that but cant quite figure who you're applying it to. It could fit virtually everyone on this godforsaken, utterly shit thread.


----------



## BrickBoxer (Jul 16, 2012)

Hello all,​They posters are not professionally made at all but some people find that more approachable, I have heard through feedback, and the most important thing is communicating we are interested to hear from people. Also, we don't have a graphic designer on the core team and our intern is away at the moment so, again, capacity and budget is our main problem. Unfortunately, we don't have a raft of creatives behind us, we are a small organisation and haven't been there for long. Saying this, any help is always appreciated so..​Editor, would love your help indeed if you're up for designing a poster. Thank you very much. I don't have your email address so could you drop me an email to hello@thebrickbox.co.uk ?​
Re. the 'shop front' is it undergoing a big change very soon so it won't be black for much longer...it's an arts project involving local young people, a local street artist and a Brazilian photographer documenting the work.

I'm also working on getting some flyers done with a general bit about what the brick box is, how to get involved, etc. blurb, which we'll distribute. Hopefully this will help further.​Thanks very much, Rosie​​


----------



## editor (Jul 16, 2012)

BrickBoxer said:


> Hello all,​They posters are not professionally made at all but some people find that more approachable, I have heard through feedback, and the most important thing is communicating we are interested to hear from people. Also, we don't have a graphic designer on the core team and our intern is away at the moment so, again, capacity and budget is our main problem. Unfortunately, we don't have a raft of creatives behind us, we are a small organisation and haven't been there for long. Saying this, any help is always appreciated so..​Editor, would love your help indeed if you're up for designing a poster. Thank you very much. I don't have your email address so could you drop me an email to hello@thebrickbox.co.uk ?​​Re. the 'shop front' is it undergoing a big change very soon so it won't be black for much longer...it's an arts project involving local young people, a local street artist and a Brazilian photographer documenting the work.​​I'm also working on getting some flyers done with a general bit about what the brick box is, how to get involved, etc. blurb, which we'll distribute. Hopefully this will help further.​Thanks very much, Rosie​​​


Hi
If you send me the text you want to put on the poster and any required graphics (your logo, for example) I'd be happy to produce a poster that should definitely be more readable than your current offering!

Mail it to urban75 - at - gmail.com


----------



## Kanda (Jul 16, 2012)

BrickBoxer said:


> _Editor, would love your help indeed if you're up for designing a poster. Thank you very much. I don't have your email address so could you drop me an email to __hello@thebrickbox.co.uk__ ?_​​​


 
Ed, Why not email it?


----------



## CH1 (Jul 16, 2012)

I felt strangely moved to ask the man standing top of a pair of steps blacking out the windows from the outside about an hour ago why he was doing so.
He started going on about a group artists taking over the premises temporarily etc. so I cut him short and said I knew all about that - and that they had even had Prince Charles in there - secretly.
Moreover I said - with an expansive gesture toward the Barrier Block, Coldharbour Lane etc  - people round her are getting to hate you lot - with your £40 Saltoun Suppers taking the piss out of the poor.
I've had my benefits cut off - completely - I said.  Do you think I can afford to ponce around like that at £40 a pop - that is assuming I WANTED to socialise with drug fuelled Bullingdon Club types who despise me!
He started getting down from his ladder - and showed signs of wanting to engage - violently.
I used the standard Lib Dem canvassing technique for nutters - back slowly away whilst continuing the conversation. By the time I had reached the Somali internet café he had given up.
Just thought you should know this.


----------



## TruXta (Jul 16, 2012)

CH1 said:


> I felt strangely moved to ask the man standing top of a pair of steps blacking out the windows from the outside about an hour ago why he was doing so.
> He started going on about a group artists taking over the premises temporarily etc. so I cut him short and said I knew all about that - and that they had even had Prince Charles in there - secretly.
> Moreover I said - with an expansive gesture toward the Barrier Block, Coldharbour Lane etc - people round her are getting to hate you lot - with your £40 Saltoun Suppers taking the piss out of the poor.
> I've had my benefits cut off - completely - I said. Do you think I can afford to ponce around like that at £40 a pop - that is assuming I WANTED to socialise with drug fuelled Bullingdon Club types who despise me!
> ...


 
......... you might wanna work on your presentation skills.


----------



## CH1 (Jul 16, 2012)

BTW if what is earlier in the thread is true - I am considering reviving "The Mary Whitehouse Experience" - should compliment Mrs Mills wonderfully!


----------



## CH1 (Jul 16, 2012)

TruXta said:


> ......... you might wanna work on your presentation skills.


I'm a sound engineer by trade - not an artist!
BTW - sound engineers make people hear everything what is there - Artists (in BrixBox) just impose public back-outs!


----------



## gabi (Jul 16, 2012)

CH1 said:


> I used the standard Lib Dem canvassing technique for nutters - back slowly away whilst continuing the conversation.


 
Wait.. *he's* the nutter?


----------



## TruXta (Jul 16, 2012)

CH1 said:


> I'm a sound engineer by trade - not an artist!
> BTW - sound engineers make people hear everything what is there - Artists (in BrixBox) just impose public back-outs!


 
I meant that your post reads as you having a bit of a rant at whomever.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Jul 16, 2012)

BrickBoxer said:


> Hello all,​They posters are not professionally made at all but some people find that more approachable, I have heard through feedback, and the most important thing is communicating we are interested to hear from people. Also, we don't have a graphic designer on the core team and our intern is away at the moment so, again, capacity and budget is our main problem. Unfortunately, we don't have a raft of creatives behind us, we are a small organisation and haven't been there for long. Saying this, any help is always appreciated so..​Editor, would love your help indeed if you're up for designing a poster. Thank you very much. I don't have your email address so could you drop me an email to hello@thebrickbox.co.uk ?​​Re. the 'shop front' is it undergoing a big change very soon so it won't be black for much longer...it's an arts project involving local young people, a local street artist and a Brazilian photographer documenting the work.​​I'm also working on getting some flyers done with a general bit about what the brick box is, how to get involved, etc. blurb, which we'll distribute. Hopefully this will help further.​Thanks very much, Rosie​​​


 

How are you doing on the community outreach?


----------



## BrickBoxer (Jul 16, 2012)

CH1 said:


> I felt strangely moved to ask the man standing top of a pair of steps blacking out the windows from the outside about an hour ago why he was doing so.
> He started going on about a group artists taking over the premises temporarily etc. so I cut him short and said I knew all about that - and that they had even had Prince Charles in there - secretly.
> Moreover I said - with an expansive gesture toward the Barrier Block, Coldharbour Lane etc - people round her are getting to hate you lot - with your £40 Saltoun Suppers taking the piss out of the poor.
> I've had my benefits cut off - completely - I said. Do you think I can afford to ponce around like that at £40 a pop - that is assuming I WANTED to socialise with drug fuelled Bullingdon Club types who despise me!
> ...


 
Hi there, just spoke to Luke (who is papering the windows in order to paint and brighten up the front in collaboration with 198 gallery and their young people) and he said he tried to speak to you about how you felt and asked you to stay and chat. I'm sorry you didn't want to but he had no agressive intention whatsoever. 

Also, I'd just like to repeat that events are always £5 or free if we can afford to fund them so I don't believe they are making fun of anyone. Many different sorts of people with different incomes and backgrounds work with us and come to our events so they aren't exclusively for anyone in particular. 

If you'd like to speak further, I'd be happy to.

All the best for a nice day.


----------



## CH1 (Jul 16, 2012)

TruXta said:


> I meant that your post reads as you having a bit of a rant at whomever.


I suffer from moral outrage. Not to bore you (again) that is why I got deselected after I mentioned being offered drugs in a pub which I am not allowed to name in the street in which I live, which I am also not allowed to name.  As a consequence of that the Black Culutral Achive is going to front onto Windrush Square. Had I not done that the BCA buiding would now be a dive in the same network of all-night vice as Mass & pub I can't name (due to legal agreement to avoid them suing me for libel & me losing my house).  
Do you want the SLP report of that? I've got it somewhere. 1997.
I normally exercise my prophetic urges in my parish church - but Mr Artist blacking out the windows was just an open goal!

Regarding me being a nutter - I am definitely a nutter - I have my discharge certificate - do you want that as well.
At one time Brixton was especially welcoming for nutters - but NEVER for Downton Abbey w*nkers!!!!


----------



## TruXta (Jul 16, 2012)

CH1 said:


> I suffer from moral outrage. Not to bore you (again) that is why I got deselected after I mentioned being offered drugs in a pub which I am not allowed to name in the street in which I live, which I am also not allowed to name. As a consequence of that the Black Culutral Achive is going to front onto Windrush Square. Had I not done that the BCA buiding would now be a dive in the same network of all-night vice as Mass & pub I can't name (due to legal agreement to avoid them suing me for libel & me losing my house).
> Do you want the SLP report of that? I've got it somewhere. 1997.
> I normally exercise my prophetic urges in my parish church - but Mr Artist blacking out the windows was just an open goal!
> 
> ...


 
I don't care if you have a diagnosis - that's not what my comment was about. It seemed, from your own words, that you had rather a few select words for this bloke. When he decided to climb down his ladder to talk to you these actions are seen as threatening to you (the perceived intent of which was denied by the other party, by proxy). Nothing personal, but it seems you are in a bit of an agitated state, and you might want to try and think about how you come across to people if that is the case. Everyone makes mistakes regarding other people's intentions all the time of course, so I'm not saying there wasn't a genuine misunderstanding going on.


----------



## CH1 (Jul 16, 2012)

TruXta said:


> I don't care if you have a diagnosis - that's not what my comment was about. It seemed, from your own words, that you had rather a few select words for this bloke. When he decided to climb down his ladder to talk to you these actions are seen as threatening to you (the perceived intent of which was denied by the other party, by proxy). Nothing personal, but it seems you are in a bit of an agitated state, and you might want to try and think about how you come across to people if that is the case. Everyone makes mistakes regarding other people's intentions all the time of course, so I'm not saying there wasn't a genuine misunderstanding going on.


I am going to the Proms tonight. That will improve my mood-state. Thank you for your concern.


----------



## TruXta (Jul 16, 2012)

CH1 said:


> I am going to the Proms tonight. That will improve my mood-state. Thank you for your concern.


 
That's good to hear.


----------



## teuchter (Jul 16, 2012)

Just when you thought this thread couldn't get any worse...


----------



## editor (Jul 16, 2012)

teuchter said:


> Just when you thought this thread couldn't get any worse...


...you arrive.


----------



## Badgers (Jul 16, 2012)

@Rosie 

When are the free events?


----------



## uk benzo (Jul 16, 2012)

Get a room the both of you.


----------



## Badgers (Jul 16, 2012)

Badgers said:
			
		

> @Rosie
> 
> When are the free events?



She went again


----------



## editor (Jul 16, 2012)

Text amended and edited and finished poster design sent off to Brick Box.


----------



## Badgers (Jul 17, 2012)

Follow on Tumblr for updates. 

http://thebrickbox.tumblr.com/


----------



## editor (Jul 17, 2012)

There's a rather garish paint job being applied to the building's façade.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 17, 2012)

Ew!


----------



## ddraig (Jul 17, 2012)

funny how they can get a pro camera set up but not knock up a few posters 

ah! posters don't go in funding docs/glossy leaflets and brochures, nice colourful pics do tho!


----------



## Badgers (Jul 17, 2012)

Black or garish though? I prefer the garish myself.


----------



## editor (Jul 17, 2012)

Badgers said:


> Black or garish though? I prefer the garish myself.


I think it looked nicer without the orange scribble all over it.


----------



## Badgers (Jul 17, 2012)

editor said:
			
		

> I think it looked nicer without the orange scribble all over it.



Well.... Yeah....


----------



## gabi (Jul 17, 2012)

I assume that's a work in progress..?


----------



## Rushy (Jul 17, 2012)

To be fair, the colour has been horrendous since long before the pub went out of business.

Maybe they are working towards this..


----------



## editor (Jul 17, 2012)

gabi said:


> I assume that's a work in progress..?


It appears to be getting worse at the moment but maybe it'll be like one of those Rolf Harris things that look utterly crap until the end.


----------



## CH1 (Jul 17, 2012)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Every young generation thinks they're the first to have discovered sex. I just think it's the ironic-post-modern equivalent of this....
> 
> 
> ...and anyway, I think Judy Chicago did it so much better.



Only just noticed this - Mrs Magpie as ever your taste is ineffable!


----------



## CH1 (Jul 17, 2012)

On Tumblr the "artists" looked as though they would not have been out of place doing up the Reichstag in 1934


----------



## teuchter (Jul 17, 2012)

CH1 said:


> On Tumblr the "artists" looked as though they would not have been out of place doing up the Reichstag in 1934


 
They aren't the ones doing the paint job as far as I understand.


----------



## teuchter (Jul 17, 2012)

Badgers said:


> Black or garish though? I prefer the garish myself.


 
Posters have to be giant ones with "bold fonts" to make sure people can notice them but mural artwork has to be as polite as possible so as not to attract attention. Those are the rules around here.


----------



## twistedAM (Jul 17, 2012)

editor said:


> I think it looked nicer without the orange scribble all over it.


 
Have you done a piece in the Lost Pubs section yet?


----------



## el-ahrairah (Jul 17, 2012)

teuchter said:


> Posters have to be giant ones with "bold fonts" to make sure people can notice them but mural artwork has to be as polite as possible so as not to attract attention. Those are the rules around here.


 
i've never put someone on ignore for being dull before.  let's see how that goes, eh?


----------



## el-ahrairah (Jul 17, 2012)

el-ahrairah said:


> How are you doing on the community outreach?


 
also, wonder if this will ever get answered.


----------



## editor (Jul 17, 2012)

teuchter said:
			
		

> Posters have to be giant ones with "bold fonts" to make sure people can notice them but mural artwork has to be as polite as possible so as not to attract attention. Those are the rules around here.


You can't work out the difference between the purpose of a mural and a poster? 

I recommend a course in basic art and graphics, and recommend you refrain from posting up any more clueless nonsense in the meantime.


----------



## editor (Jul 17, 2012)

twistedAM said:
			
		

> Have you done a piece in the Lost Pubs section yet?



Been one there for ages!


----------



## CH1 (Jul 17, 2012)

teuchter said:


> They aren't the ones doing the paint job as far as I understand.


Natürlich - wie sind die Übermensch!


----------



## Badgers (Jul 17, 2012)

teuchter said:
			
		

> They aren't the ones doing the paint job as far as I understand.



Stopping passers by and asking what Brixton means to them. Let's crack on!


----------



## CH1 (Jul 17, 2012)

Badgers said:


> Stopping passers by and asking what Brixton means to them. Let's crack on!


Sent them to 245a Coldharbour Lane "The Harbour" They are DESPERATE to "engage" with the public. PCT funded. Free crack pipes available!


----------



## Badgers (Jul 17, 2012)

Some 'engaging' going on tomorrow:

Want to give your two cents? Join us down there between 2pm and 4pm tomorrow (Weds). What's your say? Rosie (@thebrickbox)


----------



## editor (Jul 17, 2012)

Here's my piece on Angel in the Lost Pubs of Brixton section.
It's been in and out a few times as the place closed and reopened, but it looks ilke it's gone for good now 

I've got some really interesting updates about a circus family that used to live there too - I'll do that as a separate feature sometime.

http://www.urban75.org/brixton/bars/the-angel-coldharbour-lane-brixton.html


----------



## boohoo (Jul 17, 2012)

el-ahrairah said:


> also, wonder if this will ever get answered.


 
well me and the other half and bambino have been in there and we are local community.


----------



## boohoo (Jul 17, 2012)

editor said:


> There's a rather garish paint job being applied to the building's façade.
> 
> View attachment 21195


 
It's an art piece, I understand passersby can get involved. Hopefully it'll be a good addition rather than an eyesore.  I suppose it's  like all the public art in Brixton - there's the good, the bad and the ugly.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 17, 2012)

editor said:


> I've got some really interesting updates about a circus family that used to live there too


Not John Major's family?


----------



## teuchter (Jul 18, 2012)

editor said:


> You can't work out the difference between the purpose of a mural and a poster?
> 
> I recommend a course in basic art and graphics, and recommend you refrain from posting up any more clueless nonsense in the meantime.


 
Interesting post from someone concerned about outreach and engagement. Formal "art and graphics" training required before I am permitted to take part in the discourse.


----------



## teuchter (Jul 18, 2012)

boohoo said:


> It's an art piece, I understand passersby can get involved. Hopefully it'll be a good addition rather than an eyesore. I suppose it's like all the public art in Brixton - there's the good, the bad and the ugly.


 
I just walked past and thought it's basically just mediocre. Whether it's better or worse than, say, the very similar Will Self thing in the market, I'm not sure.

I'm sure I'll have a more valid opinion once I've completed a course in basic art and graphics though.


----------



## editor (Jul 18, 2012)

teuchter said:


> Interesting post from someone concerned about outreach and engagement. Formal "art and graphics" training required before I am permitted to take part in the discourse.


I'm just trying to stop you making a total arse of yourself here but - hey! - it's a free world, so feel free to keep on posting clueless shite in your desperate quest to score Big Points.


----------



## gabi (Jul 18, 2012)

I walked past it last night. Quite like it. Looks like they've got passersby to just add their own shit to it, one of which was along the lines of 'im sick of newcomers coming in'


----------



## boohoo (Jul 18, 2012)

teuchter said:


> I just walked past and thought it's basically just mediocre. Whether it's better or worse than, say, the very similar Will Self thing in the market, I'm not sure.
> 
> I'm sure I'll have a more valid opinion once I've completed a course in basic art and graphics though.


 
I'm not sure whether I like the Will self piece. It probably got funding cos it had his support.


----------



## editor (Jul 18, 2012)

boohoo said:


> I'm not sure whether I like the Will self piece. It probably got funding cos it had his support.


It just seems gloriously pointless and feels more like an advert for something or another.


----------



## Rushy (Jul 18, 2012)

boohoo said:


> I'm not sure whether I like the Will self piece. It probably got funding cos it had his support.


Not sure but I'm pretty sure I recall reading that he funded them himself.


----------



## boohoo (Jul 18, 2012)

editor said:


> It just seems gloriously pointless and feels more like an advert for something or another.


 
I feel public art should look nice (pretty, colourful, curious shapes, whatever). The Will Self box just looks boring. It doesn't add anything to that corner. Would have rather seen more foxes and cherries (however they cost 28k which could have repaired a couple of Brixton murals... )


----------



## boohoo (Jul 18, 2012)

Rushy said:


> Not sure but I'm pretty sure I recall reading that he funded them himself.


 
I wonder whether he'd like to repair a mural.


----------



## editor (Jul 18, 2012)

Rushy said:


> Not sure but I'm pretty sure I recall reading that he funded them himself.


Yep. No public money required and at least the artwork is accessible by anyone.

Have to say I feel a tiny bit miffed that I haven't even received an acknowledgement from Brick Box after sending them the poster designs two days ago. I worked hard on those.


----------



## colacubes (Jul 18, 2012)

Rushy said:


> Not sure but I'm pretty sure I recall reading that he funded them himself.


 
He might well have done, although there was a big pot of art funding from which the heron, the foxes and cherries, and at least part of the funding for his thing came from iirc.

I don't much like the Will Self one or the heron.  But I *heart* the foxes and cherries.  Which is just as well given I have pretty much the best view in Brixton of it


----------



## teuchter (Jul 18, 2012)

The foxes and cherries are definitely better than the Will Self and the Heron.


----------



## editor (Jul 18, 2012)

I don't like the Heron at all. It looks like a piece of artwork commissioned for somewhere else.


----------



## Rushy (Jul 18, 2012)

nipsla said:


> He might well have done, although there was a big pot of art funding from which the heron, the foxes and cherries, and at least part of the funding for his thing came from iirc.
> 
> I don't much like the Will Self one or the heron. But I *heart* the foxes and cherries. Which is just as well given I have pretty much the best view in Brixton of it


Agree the foxes and cherries are ace.  The heron has grown on me and I'm quite fond of it now. The Will Self thing is an interesting idea but only really worthy of temporary installation imo. But then you can't love everything.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 18, 2012)

I haven't seen the fox or the cherries. 
I like the space invader.


----------



## teuchter (Jul 18, 2012)

Rushy said:


> The Will Self thing is an interesting idea


 
It's an "idea" that's been totally done to death in countless different instances.


----------



## colacubes (Jul 18, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> I haven't seen the fox or the cherries.
> I like the space invader.


 
If you look up on the crossroads of Electric Lane and Electric Avenue it's on the roof of the building above Wing Tai.


----------



## Rushy (Jul 18, 2012)

teuchter said:


> It's an "idea" that's been totally done to death in countless different instances.


I'm sure it is not the first of its kind but I have never seen one before.
It would be great to combine it with a screen and voice recognition so that it could evolve on a daily basis.


----------



## quimcunx (Jul 18, 2012)

I like the heron.  If I didn't read about them on here I would never have noticed the fox and cherries and I bet most people who pass don't notice them either.


----------



## Maggot (Jul 18, 2012)

Where's the Will Self thing?


----------



## Kanda (Jul 18, 2012)

Maggot said:


> Where's the Will Self thing?


 
Wall at side of Iceland.


----------



## editor (Jul 18, 2012)

Kanda said:


> Wall at side of Iceland.


Above the trolleys on the side or just follow the smell of piss.


----------



## editor (Jul 18, 2012)

I hope that gaudy graffiti isn't going to stay up long. It really does look rubbish, even if the idea behind it was laudable enough.


----------



## RaverDrew (Jul 18, 2012)

I'm there now and about to paint a message on the wall, any requests ?


----------



## editor (Jul 18, 2012)

RaverDrew said:


> I'm there now and about to paint a message on the wall, any requests ?


I think you know what to write


----------



## TruXta (Jul 18, 2012)

editor said:


> I think you know what to write


 
ED LOVES BRICKBOX XXX?


----------



## quimcunx (Jul 18, 2012)

Badgers woz here.


----------



## RaverDrew (Jul 18, 2012)

There's lots of stuff in a similar vein already tbf


----------



## Crispy (Jul 18, 2012)

"This venue is endorsed by urban75"


----------



## ddraig (Jul 18, 2012)

teuchter and brickbox sitting in a tree....


----------



## RaverDrew (Jul 18, 2012)

I had to run off before I had the chance to paint my message, but meanwhile...

http://www.thelondonvandal.com/2012...n-as-police-sanitise-city-ready-for-olympics/


----------



## editor (Jul 18, 2012)

RaverDrew said:


> There's lots of stuff in a similar vein already tbf


Just walked past and got chatting to an old pub regular who was failing to see the 'art.'


----------



## TruXta (Jul 18, 2012)

editor said:


> Just waked past and got chatting to an old pub regular who was failing to see the 'art.'


 
Was it Badgers?


----------



## editor (Jul 18, 2012)

TruXta said:


> Was it Badgers?


Even older.


----------



## gabi (Jul 18, 2012)

Billy Ocean?


----------



## TruXta (Jul 18, 2012)

editor said:


> Even older.


 
Och, talking to yourself again?


----------



## kalibuzz (Jul 18, 2012)

RaverDrew said:


> I'm there now and about to paint a message on the wall, any requests ?


 Brickboxer Ite Domum
http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?q=ro...w=195&start=0&ndsp=24&ved=1t:429,r:0,s:0,i:73


----------



## teuchter (Jul 18, 2012)

editor said:


> Just walked past and got chatting to an old pub regular who was failing to see the 'art.'


 
I hope you advised him to take a basic course in art and graphics.


----------



## ddraig (Jul 18, 2012)

teuchter said:


> I hope you advised him to take a basic course in art and graphics.


have you (or you snidey liker maggot) got anything nice to say about ed offering to do a poster for them after all your harranging and pisstaking? and how have either of you got involved?


----------



## editor (Jul 18, 2012)

teuchter said:


> I hope you advised him to take a basic course in art and graphics.


By Christ, you really are the dullest person on these boards.


----------



## Maggot (Jul 18, 2012)

ddraig said:


> have you (or you snidey liker maggot) got anything nice to say about ed offering to do a poster for them after all your harranging and pisstaking? and how have either of you got involved?


What the fuck has this got to do with you anyway?


----------



## ddraig (Jul 18, 2012)

Maggot said:


> What the fuck has this got to do with you anyway?


 pardon??


----------



## teuchter (Jul 18, 2012)

ddraig said:


> have you (or you snidey liker maggot) got anything nice to say about ed offering to do a poster for them after all your harranging and pisstaking? and how have either of you got involved?


I think editor's offering to do the poster for them was a nice gesture and goes some way to make up for his constant haranguing of Brick Box, and his spreading of misinformation. Of course, it depends to some extent what he actually sent them. If he genuinely sent them a helpful poster design then it is a very bad show that they have not responded or acknowledged.
I have done nothing to get involved other than to spend a little time defending them from some of the inaccurate accusations being thrown around on the internet, even though I have plenty of reservations about what they are doing.
In any case, being middle class and living more than 100 metres from the venue means that I am not part of the community that a community arts venue is allowed to interact with, so it's probably best that I don't become complicit in their evil plans. I'm surprised Ed has, actually.

I hope this answers your questions.


----------



## ddraig (Jul 18, 2012)

teuchter said:


> I think editor's offering to do the poster for them was a nice gesture and goes some way to make up for his constant haranguing of Brick Box, and his spreading of misinformation. Of course, it depends to some extent what he actually sent them. If he genuinely sent them a helpful poster design then it is a very bad show that they have not responded or acknowledged.
> I have done nothing to get involved other than to spend a little time defending them from some of the inaccurate accusations being thrown around on the internet, even though I have plenty of reservations about what they are doing.
> In any case, being middle class and living more than 100 metres from the venue means that I am not part of the community that a community arts venue is allowed to interact with, so it's probably best that I don't become complicit in their evil plans. I'm surprised Ed has, actually.
> 
> I hope this answers your questions.


did you write that with crossed arms or your tongue out?
another pathetic wriggle and series of digs either way


----------



## editor (Jul 18, 2012)

teuchter said:


> Of course, it depends to some extent what he actually sent them. If he genuinely sent them a helpful poster design then it is a very bad show that they have not responded or acknowledged.


What, you thought I'd send them a shit poster on purpose? Jeez. What a prick you are.

For the record, they wrote back this afternoon and responded to an edit I'd suggested. I then amended the poster, sentd it off to them and it should be visible in their windows in a few days after the current exhibition is finished.


----------



## teuchter (Jul 18, 2012)

ddraig said:


> did you write that with crossed arms or your tongue out?
> another pathetic wriggle and series of digs either way


 
Please, tell me more about these "digs" and how you define them, and why you object to them.


----------



## editor (Jul 18, 2012)

Here's the finished poster. I think it does a good job of communicating what the place is about and letting people know how to get in touch.


----------



## teuchter (Jul 18, 2012)

editor said:


> What, you thought I'd send them a shit poster on purpose? Jeez. What a prick you are.
> 
> For the record, they wrote back this afternoon and responded to an edit I'd suggested. I then amended the poster, sentd it off to them and it should be visible in their windows in a few days after the current exhibition is finished.


 
What was the edit you suggested?


----------



## editor (Jul 18, 2012)

teuchter said:


> Please, tell me more about these "digs" and how you define them, and why you object to them.


Just shut up, FFS.


----------



## editor (Jul 18, 2012)

teuchter said:


> What was the edit you suggested?


All the bits that weren't in the original little poster. The last suggestion was adding a way for people not on-line to make contact.


----------



## Maggot (Jul 18, 2012)

ddraig said:


> pardon??


Why are you so concerned about a former pub 150 miles away (and in a different country) from where you live?


----------



## editor (Jul 18, 2012)

Maggot said:


> Why are you so concerned about a former pub 150 miles away (and in a different country) from where you live?


You live miles from the pub too so he's just as entitled to an opinion as you.

Any chance of getting back on topic now?


----------



## teuchter (Jul 18, 2012)

editor said:


> All the bits that weren't in the original little poster. The last suggestion was adding a way for people not on-line to make contact.


Fair enough. I didn't think you would have sent them a "shit poster". I wondered if you might have sent them a poster that presented them as something other than what they themselves want to be presented as. This was based on the fact that you seem to have an objection to, almost literally, everything they do.


----------



## editor (Jul 18, 2012)

teuchter said:


> Fair enough. I didn't think you would have sent them a "shit poster". I wondered if you might have sent them a poster that presented them as something other than what they themselves want to be presented as.


Then that would be a shit poster too.


----------



## ddraig (Jul 18, 2012)

Maggot said:


> Why are you so concerned about a former pub 150 miles away (and in a different country) from where you live?


what the fuck has it got to do with you?

and if you actually read the thread you could have got an idea


----------



## editor (Jul 18, 2012)

Of course, what Brick Box need now is another poster  in the window next to this one listing the dates, times and descriptions of all their forthcoming events, along with details of admission charges. Although the new poster does a good job of telling people about the venture, there's no details about actual events.

As ever, I will be happy to help.


----------



## CH1 (Jul 18, 2012)

editor said:


> It just seems gloriously pointless and feels more like an advert for something or another.


Regarding Will Self - he could have done something significant to enhance the memorial plaque commemorating the Brixton Bombing. Anyway God got him in the end - half his house fell down a couple of months ago.
Shows what happens when arrivistes take over terraces of Victorian houses without a clue to long term maintenance. A bit like Ujima really!


----------



## CH1 (Jul 18, 2012)

editor said:


> Just walked past and got chatting to an old pub regular who was failing to see the 'art.'


I walked past at 4.45 pm and chatted to THREE old regulars who live in a shoebox outside the Lambeth MiniMart.
They proudly told me Prince Charles had been down - but chortled when I said I hope to God no Lambeth Council money had gone into the venture.
The trouble with Brixton men of the old school is they are basically very servile - RAF etc in WWII. They even act deferentially to Prince Charles in Muppet Mode.
The only hope for the country is to change the law and have Princess Anne take over.  She is the only one with any brains in the Royal Family. And we all know how we love strong women - Jamaican people even more so.
Princess Anne would never have been taken in by all this talking about plants in the window of the pub at 10 in the morning - and waving royally to George Walters. She would have invited him in for a cup of tea.  Like civilised Brixtonians used to do before Yuppies, Filofax and Lotus Organiser!


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 18, 2012)

Bollocks. She's just like the rest of them. They all want stringing up.


----------



## lighterthief (Jul 18, 2012)

editor said:


> Although the new poster does a good job of telling people about the venture, there's no details about actual events.
> 
> As ever, I will be happy to help.


Modest _and_ selfless.


----------



## gabi (Jul 18, 2012)




----------



## editor (Jul 18, 2012)




----------



## CH1 (Jul 18, 2012)

gabi said:


> Billy Ocean?


Frank Ocean is flavour of the month I understand


----------



## Maggot (Jul 19, 2012)

editor said:


> You live miles from the pub too so he's just as entitled to an opinion as you.
> 
> Any chance of getting back on topic now?


I live 10 miles away and visit Brixton regularly (as you well know). It's no comparison.


----------



## editor (Jul 19, 2012)

Here's the art project.

















http://www.urban75.org/blog/brick-b...-old-angel-pub-brixton-invites-local-comment/


----------



## gabi (Jul 19, 2012)

So. Quite cool actually.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 19, 2012)

It's hideous!


----------



## gabi (Jul 19, 2012)

I like the idea. Nice riposte to some of the stick they've been getting.


----------



## editor (Jul 19, 2012)

Idea's great, but the actual art just makes the place look like a shithole.


----------



## Crispy (Jul 19, 2012)

Red on orange, what were they thinking?


----------



## teuchter (Jul 19, 2012)

I'm sure it'll give the redeveloper owners a warm glow inside.


----------



## CH1 (Jul 20, 2012)

teuchter said:


> I'm sure it'll give the redeveloper owners a warm glow inside.


I think Jerry Knight might be tolerating this in the hope of the jackpot - i.e. we all get so pissed off we burn it down in a riot! Then he could have The Viaduct 2 on the shopping terrace and The Viaduct 3 on the Carwash site. Ughhh!


----------



## CH1 (Jul 20, 2012)

Regarding black-outs: being Gay I am a bit naive you understand, but all the pubs I have been to with blacked out windows give you condoms as part of the admission price.
Do you think this might be Suzy Kruger's new hideway?
SHE caused enough trouble at Substation South, then that club in Camberwell Green which sued Southwark Council because they granted planning permission for flats nearby (shock horror!), thus effectively closing down their all-night shenanigans.
If Suzy is involved <editor: potentially dodgy content removed>


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 20, 2012)

Er, potential libel here. Think you need to wind your neck in sometimes fella


----------



## editor (Jul 20, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> Er, potential libel here. Think you need to wind your neck in sometimes fella


I agree and have edited the post.


----------



## CH1 (Jul 22, 2012)

David @BrixtonianDave 
@cllrstevereed When are you going to intervene re the Angel Pub-Coldharbour Lane? They have now covered it themselves with vile graffiti. They should be told to redo it nicely - or pay to have the Graffiti Squad do it. OR lose their license!


----------



## CH1 (Jul 22, 2012)

David @BrixtonianDave
@cllrstevereed I bet no-one with anything to do with the Angel "Art Centre" lives within 5 miles. AND they don't invite locals.I have had reports of local black guys being turned away from their £5 economy weekend raves. Yet the Saltoun Supper Club charge £40 to dress like Downton Abbey types to mock us poor people - right in there!


----------



## teuchter (Jul 22, 2012)

"I have had reports"


----------



## CH1 (Jul 22, 2012)

teuchter said:


> "I have had reports"


I thought you lot didn't like libel (or slander)!
Deleting is now impossible it seems so you will have to put up with innuendo.


----------



## gabi (Jul 22, 2012)

im lost. whos brixtonian dave?


----------



## CH1 (Jul 22, 2012)

C'est moi - a nom de plume if you like
(Remember in the old days - La plume de ma tant etc etc)


----------



## teuchter (Jul 22, 2012)

Well, either you are accusing them of restricting entry on the basis of skin colour or you aren't - which is it?


----------



## gabi (Jul 22, 2012)

Why are you posting your tweets here? surely twitter's got a big enough fan-base for you?


----------



## CH1 (Jul 22, 2012)

teuchter said:


> Well, either you are accusing them of restricting entry on the basis of skin colour or you aren't - which is it?


I thought the decision on entry to clubs was the prerogative of the bouncers - who were not black (as I described a couple of weeks ago or was it one week ago)
Maybe bouncers need to be accountable - or even given equalities training in this case.
Maybe they got their equalities from Lord Muck - or whoever presides at Downton Abbey. Never watch that rubbish. I only watch BBC1 BBC2 BBC4 or the news (and my favourite Max Keiser on Russia Today of course)


----------



## gabi (Jul 22, 2012)

You're nuts


----------



## CH1 (Jul 22, 2012)

gabi said:


> Why are you posting your tweets here? surely twitter's got a big enough fan-base for you?


I'm still working on Twitter. I nearly have a following of 100 Nigerians, Ghanaians, Malawians, Zimbabweans and South Africans on Facebook though. It takes a bit of diplomacy to keep order amongst the atheists, Marxists, Catholics, Anglicans and various Christian Fundamentalists though. I find the easiest to please are Nigerian Moslems - very easy going normally.
The most troublesome are American atheists who will keep butting in - especially when you mention USAF Lakenheath or USAF Mildenhall - the US Nuclear bases in Suffolk. Then all hell breaks out sometimes. Not surprised at the Denver situation. Most Americans seem to be being trained to operate DRONES. So watch it mate!


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 22, 2012)




----------



## CH1 (Jul 22, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


>


That's what the American atheists put up. I doesn't do any good.


----------



## CH1 (Jul 22, 2012)

I take it you 2 are in favour of racist entry policies as applied to rave venues in Coldharbour Lane then?


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 22, 2012)

Not at all


----------



## editor (Jul 22, 2012)

There was something going on there last night, but with no posters on the Coldharbour Lane frontage and a bunch of three burly bouncers guarding the dark side entrance it didn't exactly look welcoming. It felt like it was a private party, tbh. Perhaps it was.

CH1: can you please keep on topic because your obscure rants are proving annoyingly disruptive.


----------



## gabi (Jul 22, 2012)

> I take it you 2 are in favour of racist entry policies as applied to rave venues in Coldharbour Lane then?​


Are you on medication? Did you take it this morning?


----------



## CH1 (Jul 22, 2012)

editor said:


> CH1: can you please keep on topic because your obscure rants are proving annoyingly disruptive.


Who posted the picture to insult me then? If this was a work environment I would get the union down!


----------



## CH1 (Jul 22, 2012)

gabi said:


> Are you on medication? Did you take it this morning?


Better no medication that constant arid cynicism!


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 22, 2012)

I posted it to illustrate my reaction to your bizarre outpourings


----------



## gabi (Jul 22, 2012)

editor said:


> There was something going on there last night, but with no posters on the Coldharbour Lane frontage and a bunch of three burly bouncers guarding the dark side entrance it didn't exactly look welcoming. It felt like it was a private party, tbh. Perhaps it was.
> 
> CH1: can you please keep on topic because your obscure rants are proving annoyingly disruptive.


 
I think they rent it out to private parties, a la the weird cunty supper club thing. seems fair enough if they also put on free stuff (which there's little evidence of yet)


----------



## CH1 (Jul 22, 2012)

So do you approve/disapporve of me tweeting SteveReed (in his private capacity)?


----------



## gabi (Jul 22, 2012)

Sorry, what evidence do you have that these people are racist? these 'reports'?


----------



## CH1 (Jul 22, 2012)

I hate the graffiti most of all. I''m sure the locals would get on better in the Domino Club (as would I) in fact I went in there yesterday to tell them about the torch coming on Thursday. I had the letter from the councillors and Dame Tessa - but no-one had informed them!


----------



## CH1 (Jul 22, 2012)

gabi said:


> Sorry, what evidence do you have that these people are racist? these 'reports'?


Why should I interact with someone who had just insinuated I need medication? Prat!


----------



## gabi (Jul 22, 2012)

tweet off, weirdo.

im off to the park


----------



## CH1 (Jul 22, 2012)

gabi said:


> tweet off, weirdo.
> 
> im off to the park


Have a nice day!


----------



## CH1 (Jul 22, 2012)

editor said:


> There was something going on there last night, but with no posters on the Coldharbour Lane frontage and a bunch of three burly bouncers guarding the dark side entrance it didn't exactly look welcoming. It felt like it was a private party, tbh. Perhaps it was.


I suggest you check out if a queue forms - and if so join it and make an assessment of the customers. You could always say you've lost your wallet if you are unexpectedly asked for cash to get in!
I came back from Brixton about 9 pm last night - so all quiet on the western front.


----------



## CH1 (Jul 22, 2012)

I tweeted Ben from SLP with the thread address (at the beginning) and he will have seen my complaints to Reed re the graffiti. So he might be up for a story. Never know.
Hope that is OK. Obviously apart from myself and Mr Jasper (if he commented at all) no-one is identifiable.
But perhaps the SLP might find THAT weird?
Certainly politicians and Police Commanders will have taken note of what happens to them!


----------



## teuchter (Jul 22, 2012)

editor said:


> There was something going on there last night, but with no posters on the Coldharbour Lane frontage and a bunch of three burly bouncers guarding the dark side entrance it didn't exactly look welcoming. It felt like it was a private party, tbh. Perhaps it was.


 
It wasn't a private party, it's been in their event listings on their website and facebook for the last couple of weeks. £3 in.

http://www.thebrickbox.co.uk/events.html


----------



## editor (Jul 22, 2012)

teuchter said:


> It wasn't a private party, it's been in their event listings on their website and facebook for the last couple of weeks. £3 in.


Like most of Brixton, I don't follow them on Facebook.

Quite why they couldn't just put up a poster where people can see it remains one of life's mysteries.


----------



## ddraig (Jul 22, 2012)

teuchter said:


> It wasn't a private party, it's been in their event listings on their website and facebook for the last couple of weeks. £3 in.
> 
> http://www.thebrickbox.co.uk/events.html


as i gather you are such a stickler for facts i feel i must correct you as i am sure you would not want to give the wrong impression.
the entry was £5 not £3!


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 22, 2012)

YUCK:


----------



## RaverDrew (Jul 22, 2012)

gabi said:


> im lost. whos brixtonian dave?


 
aka Beehive Dave


----------



## editor (Jul 22, 2012)

It may be a small building but these events must be _*incredibly*_ expensive to put on.

Their website says that "Entry fees are necessary to cover the costs of hiring security and bar staff," yet it also states that Friday's event was "mainly" funded by Brazilian multinational oil giant Petrobas, the largest company in the Southern Hemisphere by market capitalization and the largest in Latin America measured by 2011 revenues.


----------



## editor (Jul 22, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> YUCK:


It is truly an eyesore now.


----------



## teuchter (Jul 22, 2012)

ddraig said:


> as i gather you are such a stickler for facts i feel i must correct you as i am sure you would not want to give the wrong impression.
> the entry was £5 not £3!


£3 on Friday, £5 on Saturday. Apologies for my carelessness.


----------



## editor (Jul 22, 2012)

teuchter said:


> £3 on Friday, £5 on Saturday. Apologies for my carelessness.


Despite enjoying funding from a super-rich oil multinational they don't appear to have any free evening events coming up at all, do they?


----------



## teuchter (Jul 22, 2012)

Urban75 in 2012: people complaining about graffiti being an eyesore. Middle England comes to Brixton.


----------



## teuchter (Jul 22, 2012)

editor said:


> Friday's event was "mainly" funded by Brazilian multinational oil giant Petrobas



Are you pretty confident that this is an accurate statement of fact then?


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 22, 2012)

teuchter said:


> Urban75 in 2012: people complaining about graffiti being an eyesore. Middle England comes to Brixton.


But there's graffiti which isn't an eyesore and graffiti that is. This falls on the 'is an eyesore' category. 

Given that Brixton has a fine history in community murals, why couldn't the outside have been painted as a mural? It would have been a good way to get the community involved, like when boohoo did the windmill mural project, and made the building more or an icon than an eyesore?


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 22, 2012)

And how long will the outside be like that? I hope it's not too long.


----------



## purenarcotic (Jul 22, 2012)

editor said:


> It may be a small building but these events must be _*incredibly*_ expensive to put on.
> 
> Their website says that "Entry fees are necessary to cover the costs of hiring security and bar staff," yet it also states that Friday's event was "mainly" funded by Brazilian multinational oil giant Petrobas, the largest company in the Southern Hemisphere by market capitalization and the largest in Latin America measured by 2011 revenues.


 
But it doesn't state what bit of the event they funded; the funding might not cover the costs of security and bar staff.  Funding bids are very, very specific, you cannot spend a penny on what isn't stipulated in the funding agreement.  So for example, if you make a funding bid to buy sports equipment for a summer camp, you then cannot spend some of it on sports equipment and some of it on squash and fruit for drinks and snacks.  All the money must only be spent on sports equipment. 

They may have funded the cost of flying these people out to Brixton, and the cost of accommodation for them, but may not have covered the costs of running the event in the venue itself, for example.


----------



## teuchter (Jul 22, 2012)

purenarcotic said:


> But it doesn't state what bit of the event they funded; the funding might not cover the costs of security and bar staff. Funding bids are very, very specific, you cannot spend a penny on what isn't stipulated in the funding agreement. So for example, if you make a funding bid to buy sports equipment for a summer camp, you then cannot spend some of it on sports equipment and some of it on squash and fruit for drinks and snacks. All the money must only be spent on sports equipment.
> 
> They may have funded the cost of flying these people out to Brixton, and the cost of accommodation for them, but may not have covered the costs of running the event in the venue itself, for example.


 
Exactly, but Editor is continuing as per the rest of the thread with inaccurate assertions and not bothering to check his facts. I recommend he takes a course in basic journalism skills before posting up any of this nonsense.


----------



## purenarcotic (Jul 22, 2012)

teuchter said:


> Exactly, but Editor is continuing as per the rest of the thread with inaccurate assertions and not bothering to check his facts. I recommend he takes a course in basic journalism skills before posting up any of this nonsense.


 
I don't think he was doing that at all tbh, not in this case.  If you're not used to making funding bids, why would you think anything other than you make an application and get a big chunk of money? Ed might not know that funding bids are specific in their stipulations; I wouldn't expect him, or anyone to google that boring nugget of information tbh.


----------



## teuchter (Jul 22, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> But there's graffiti which isn't an eyesore and graffiti that is. This falls on the 'is an eyesore' category.
> 
> Given that Brixton has a fine history in community murals, why couldn't the outside have been painted as a mural? It would have been a good way to get the community involved, like when boohoo did the windmill mural project, and made the building more or an icon than an eyesore?


 
It's temporary, and it's fundamentally different from a mural in that it's not a piece with an overall plan and made by a co-ordinated effort. I don't think this thing is especially good really but the idea of it was to let passersby make their own individual comments. As far as I can see it looks like it has actually been contributed to by a cross section of people knocking around...there are some mentioning the local school and the local estate and some some comments against redevelopment etc. It's not like it's been edited to make it suitable for Prince Charles.


----------



## teuchter (Jul 22, 2012)

purenarcotic said:


> I don't think he was doing that at all tbh, not in this case. If you're not used to making funding bids, why would you think anything other than you make an application and get a big chunk of money? Ed might not know that funding bids are specific in their stipulations; I wouldn't expect him, or anyone to google that boring nugget of information tbh.


 
To start with, if he'd read the event page properly he'd have seen that the Rio people weren't the only act. That alone makes his statement obviously unsubstantiated.


----------



## editor (Jul 22, 2012)

teuchter said:


> Exactly, but Editor is continuing as per the rest of the thread with inaccurate assertions and not bothering to check his facts


What 'inaccurate assertion' did I post up?


----------



## editor (Jul 22, 2012)

purenarcotic said:


> I don't think he was doing that at all tbh, not in this case.


Indeed. I just stated that the event must have been expensive to put on, what with it needing door charges _and_ funding from an oil giant, on top of the income from the bar.

The artists were already in the UK, by the way.

Edit to add: Rio Occupation were "Co-funded by British Council and Arts Council England project in London and Rio de Janeiro."
https://www.facebook.com/RioOccupationLondon/info


----------



## editor (Jul 22, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> But there's graffiti which isn't an eyesore and graffiti that is. This falls on the 'is an eyesore' category.


Indeed. It's a mess and just looks like crap tagging.


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 22, 2012)

editor said:


> Indeed. It's a mess and just looks like crap tagging.


I've seen some great stuff in my time, that is not it. Yes, they got people to do it for them, but there are ways of doing graffiti art AND getting lots of people to contribute so that it's doesn't look crap.


----------



## editor (Jul 22, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> I've seen some great stuff in my time, that is not it. Yes, they got people to do it for them, but there are ways of doing graffiti art AND getting lots of people to contribute so that it's doesn't look crap.


The only time people were invited to scrawl over the walls was when the Brick Box people were standing outside holding the paint brushes - which wasn't very often at all.

Of course, I imagine local taggers and graffiti artists will rightly see this building as fair game now seeing as they've done such a good job of making it look like a derelict squat.


teuchter said:


> As far as I can see it looks like it has actually been contributed to by a cross section of people knocking around...there are some mentioning the local school and the local estate and some some comments against redevelopment etc.


And McDonalds.


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 22, 2012)

editor said:


> The only time people were invited to scrawl over the walls was when the Brick Box people were standing outside holding the paint brushes - which wasn't very often at all.
> 
> Of course, I imagine local taggers and graffiti artists will rightly see this building as fair game now seeing as they've done such a good job of making it look like a derelict squat.
> And McDonalds.


 
I was just about say it makes the building look abandoned.


----------



## teuchter (Jul 22, 2012)

editor said:


> What 'inaccurate assertion' did I post up?





editor said:


> It may be a small building but these events must be _*incredibly*_ expensive to put on.
> 
> Their website says that "Entry fees are necessary to cover the costs of hiring security and bar staff," yet it *also states that Friday's event was "mainly" funded by Brazilian multinational oil giant Petrobas*, the largest company in the Southern Hemisphere by market capitalization and the largest in Latin America measured by 2011 revenues.


----------



## Thaw (Jul 23, 2012)

I drunkenly emailed them last night to ask about posters...

"Thanks very much for your email re: the poster in the window. Apologies for the delay in putting in up - we are waiting for Mr Dane and his collaborators to finish painting the outside of the building so we can see where is the best place to put it. This should be finished by the end of Wednesday so the poster will go up asap after that.

Thanks for keeping us in the loop and giving us a firm shake! "


----------



## editor (Jul 23, 2012)

How hard can it be to stick up a poster with a bit of blu-tack?


----------



## ddraig (Jul 23, 2012)

maybe most of them are too into their operational/overseeing roles and they have not yet found a physical promotion intern??


----------



## el-ahrairah (Jul 23, 2012)

i was considering going along to the occupation rio thingy.  glad i didn't now, if it was a sham sponsored by one of the world's big satans using the language of the left to co-opt etc.


----------



## ddraig (Jul 23, 2012)

editor said:


> How hard can it be to stick up a poster with a bit of blu-tack?


 maybe they haven't got their blu-tack funding through yet??


----------



## teuchter (Jul 23, 2012)




----------



## twistedAM (Jul 23, 2012)

Ok, fess up, which one are you?


----------



## el-ahrairah (Jul 25, 2012)

what?


----------



## editor (Jul 25, 2012)

God it looks a mess. They've just put some black paint all over it now.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 25, 2012)

They are big faces, apparently


----------



## el-ahrairah (Jul 25, 2012)

pics please


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## editor (Jul 25, 2012)

I'm just seeing a big mess of random tags, scrawls and a big blob of black paint that makes TOX look like John Constable.


----------



## Crispy (Jul 25, 2012)

Looks like one of things where all the marks line up from a certain point of view to form a picture.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 25, 2012)

If you look at the doors from the other side, you'll see two big faces in black paint. 
I cycled by earlier and considered taking a photo but didn't fancy standing in the road.
Maybe on my way back later


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## Orang Utan (Jul 25, 2012)

You can see hair and an ear in ed's photo


----------



## editor (Jul 25, 2012)

Crispy said:


> Looks like one of things where all the marks line up from a certain point of view to form a picture.


Looking shit from this angle, particularly with all the crap graffiti.

I'm not against the idea of painting over buildings - particularly if the local community and established artists get involved (see links) - but this really is a self indulgent eyesore.

http://muralarts.org/
http://www.inacreativecontext.com/2012/02/murals-of-philadelphia.html


----------



## editor (Jul 25, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> You can see hair and an ear in ed's photo


Maybe it's Prince Charles.


----------



## Rushy (Jul 25, 2012)

editor said:


> Looking shit from this angle, particularly with all the crap graffiti.
> 
> I'm not against the idea of painting over buildings - particularly if the local community and established artists get involved (see links) - but this really is a self indulgent eyesore.
> 
> ...


Stop complaining. It's better than the eight lane flyover which was supposed to be your view.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 25, 2012)

editor said:


> Maybe it's Prince Charles.


They appear to be two 'black' faces, judging by the hair


----------



## el-ahrairah (Jul 25, 2012)

Crispy said:


> Looks like one of things where all the marks line up from a certain point of view to form a picture.


 
that's exactly what i thought when i saw that picture.


----------



## editor (Jul 25, 2012)

Maybe it looks fantastic if viewed from opposite the Villaaaage.


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## Orang Utan (Jul 25, 2012)

VILLAGE


----------



## gabi (Jul 25, 2012)

it's probably related to the exhibition starting tomorrow. a bit pollock.

http://www.thebrickbox.co.uk/events.html


----------



## teuchter (Jul 25, 2012)

I think the next piece should be some kind of image that only lines up from the perspective of curtain-twitchers across the road from the building. What image should it be though?


----------



## el-ahrairah (Jul 25, 2012)

i'm assuming its unfinished.  brickbox posted a front-on view on fb just now.  might well look very nice when it's done.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Jul 25, 2012)

also...


*MAGPIE, 354 Coldharbour Lane, 16-18th and 23-25th of August​*



 MAGPIE will land at The Brick Box this August. 
It is a bird? No, it’s an eclectic nest of artistic, cinematic, photographic, musical and poetic treasures. 

This mini-festival will include pop up poetry, intimate one-on-one recitals in our Eritrean hut, Invisible Theatre and Aerial Sparks’ unnervingly meta installation; a dollhouse made out of dolls. Don’t toy with me!

We’ve hoarded away a selection of performers and dream-weavers for your artistic amusement.
Our stash of shinies include:


- Musical trinkets from The London City Reggae Choir
- Artistic treasures provided by David Nevin
- A series of poetic trifles (soon to be announced)

Are you easily attracted by shiny objects? Fly by on any night to check out our collection of artistic curios. We’ll guarantee to ruffle your feathers, and at just £3/5 for entry, it’s frankly a steal!


----------



## snowy_again (Jul 25, 2012)

Can't get it to imbed, but here's the view from the other side

https://twitter.com/thebrickbox/status/228130343029465088/photo/1/large


----------



## editor (Jul 25, 2012)

teuchter said:


> I think the next piece should be some kind of image that only lines up from the perspective of curtain-twitchers across the road from the building.


Gotta love the way that you're relegating the local residents into 'curtain twitchers.'

Speaks volumes of the contempt you have for them.


----------



## editor (Jul 25, 2012)

snowy_again said:


> Can't get it to imbed, but here's the view from the other side
> 
> https://twitter.com/thebrickbox/status/228130343029465088/photo/1/large


Looks miles better from that angle. Still a mess with all that tagging though. Hope that gets painted over soon.


----------



## snowy_again (Jul 25, 2012)

editor said:


> Gotta love the way that you're relegating the local residents into 'curtain twitchers.'
> 
> Speaks volumes of the contempt you have for them.


 
But you follow them on twitter don't you? I've just looked at their feed, and took that photo from it. If you can see the same info, you'd have known that it wasn't just a squiggle.


----------



## editor (Jul 25, 2012)

snowy_again said:


> But you follow them on twitter don't you?


No I don't.


----------



## snowy_again (Jul 25, 2012)

Sorry, i was mistaken and thought you said you did, or they followed you, i've forgotten.

It only takes a click and then you could find out lots of things! (And yes, I know posters are better than twitter).

I sort of like some of the other work the painter had done in CP for example:

http://mrdane.tumblr.com/


----------



## editor (Jul 26, 2012)

They've now covered up the entire artwork and associated scrawls, with a blue sheet masking the entire frontage.
I presume this is because of the Olympic Torch.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 26, 2012)

Looks better now.
They just posted this on the twitters:


----------



## editor (Jul 26, 2012)

Weird why they covered it up though.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Jul 27, 2012)

only sanctioned street art in sanctioned places is allowed.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Jul 27, 2012)

i mean, if everyone went around painting their own houses however they liked, it would be anarchy


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 27, 2012)

teuchter said:


> I think the next piece should be some kind of image that only lines up from the perspective of curtain-twitchers across the road from the building. What image should it be though?


 
Some sour-hearted cunt.
You could model for it!


----------



## editor (Jul 27, 2012)

Ten days on and still no sign of them putting up the poster I went to all the effort of designing for them.

Don't know why I bothered trying to help, really.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 27, 2012)




----------



## teuchter (Jul 27, 2012)

editor said:


> Ten days on and still no sign of them putting up the poster I went to all the effort of designing for them.
> 
> Don't know why I bothered trying to help, really.


 
No retraction of your oil money false accusations either, I note.


----------



## Badgers (Jul 27, 2012)

All this aside. Have they done anything good yet? The sort of thing that locals or 'visiting chums' would even give a flying fuck about? I find the whole thing shit but what saddens me most is that I am getting bothered by a venue/night/group I would not go to if paid £40.

I don't know much about music and art but I do know what I hate.


----------



## teuchter (Jul 27, 2012)

Do you mean they are actively bothering you badgers or do you mean that you are bothered by the fact that you are bothering to be bothered in the first place?


----------



## editor (Jul 27, 2012)

teuchter said:


> No retraction of your oil money false accusations either, I note.


Take your pills and have a lie down before you babble out any more bizarre nonsense, you deluded fool.


----------



## editor (Jul 27, 2012)

The good news is that my poster has finally gone up - huzzah! - but sadly it's on the Valentia Place side so unlikely to be seen by many.

What they need now is a listing of events coming up - and my offer still stands for that too.


----------



## Badgers (Jul 27, 2012)

teuchter said:
			
		

> Do you mean they are actively bothering you badgers or do you mean that you are bothered by the fact that you are bothering to be bothered in the first place?



Reread the post. 
I get bothered. 

Then again I get bothered by stupid things a lot.


----------



## RaverDrew (Jul 27, 2012)

editor said:


> The good news is that my poster has finally gone up - huzzah! - but sadly it's on the Valentia Place side so unlikely to be seen by many.
> 
> What they need now is a listing of events coming up - and my offer still stands for that too.



I just drove past briefly and it's a paper poster stuck on the outside, I wonder how long that will last in the rain ?


----------



## teuchter (Jul 27, 2012)

editor said:


> Take your pills and have a lie down before you babble out any more bizarre nonsense, you deluded fool.


This arrogant disregard for the accuracy of what you accuse them of, but you'll do them another poster so it's all ok. How lovely.


----------



## editor (Jul 27, 2012)

teuchter said:


> This arrogant disregard for the accuracy of what you accuse them of, but you'll do them another poster so it's all ok. How lovely.


The "accusations" are in your easily-confused, reality-twisting, all-misrepresentating head. Dealing with your poisonous, distorted bullshit isn't really worth the effort, so I'm off to enjoy the weekend. HAND.


----------



## gabi (Jul 28, 2012)

I can sorta understand their reluctance to put that poster up. Not that it's bad. It just doesn't really fit into the look they've currently got going there.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 28, 2012)

teuchter said:


> *This arrogant disregard for the accuracy of what you accuse them of*, but you'll do them another poster so it's all ok. How lovely.


 
Ever heard of reflexivity, teuchter?


----------



## ddraig (Jul 28, 2012)

teuchter said:


> This arrogant disregard for the accuracy of what you accuse them of, but you'll do them another poster so it's all ok. How lovely.


and what exactly have you done for them except blindly defend??


----------



## teuchter (Jul 30, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Ever heard of reflexivity, teuchter?


 
If it's a concept you think can be used to construct an excuse for editor's behaviour then I am all ears.


----------



## teuchter (Jul 30, 2012)

ddraig said:


> and what exactly have you done for them except blindly defend??


 You've asked this before and I've answered it already.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 30, 2012)

teuchter said:


> If it's a concept you think can be used to construct an excuse for editor's behaviour then I am all ears.


 
No, it's a practice that you need to apply to yourself if you want to escape your own cuntitude, nothing to do with anyone else.


----------



## teuchter (Jul 30, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> No, it's a practice that you need to apply to yourself if you want to escape your own cuntitude, nothing to do with anyone else.


 
Go on then, tell me what and how. It would be nice if you could sometimes post something that had some kind of content that there would be any point in responding to.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 30, 2012)

teuchter said:


> Go on then, tell me what and how.


 
It's simple. You look inward in a detached manner and assess whether what you're saying is reasoned, or whether it's informed by your prejudices, petty dislikes and biases.

Strip away your pettiness, bickering and self-righteousness and what's left, teuchter?



> It would be nice if you could sometimes post something that had some kind of content that there would be any point in responding to.


 
You see, that comment is a hostage to fortune. If you indulged in reflexivity you'd have thought twice about making it, given the lack of any real content in many of your on posts. 

Hope that helps.


----------



## Crispy (Jul 30, 2012)

teuchter: You've stated that you're only interested in a fair fight, that you want "just the facts m'lud" and for nobody or thing to go misrepresented.
But you seem go about it in a deliberately prickly way.  I think that you know exactly what sort of reaction your comments will get, and make them that way on purpose. It makes you feel good when your opponents act in the way you predicted them to, and find this more rewarding than satisfying your original purported goals. Am I anywhere near the mark?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 30, 2012)

Crispy said:


> teuchter: You've stated that you're only interested in a fair fight, that you want "just the facts m'lud" and for nobody or thing to go misrepresented.
> But you seem go about it in a deliberately prickly way. I think that you know exactly what sort of reaction your comments will get, and make them that way on purpose. It makes you feel good when your opponents act in the way you predicted them to, and find this more rewarding than satisfying your original purported goals. Am I anywhere near the mark?


 
One takes one's pleasures where one can, dear boy.


----------



## teuchter (Jul 31, 2012)

Crispy said:


> teuchter: You've stated that you're only interested in a fair fight, that you want "just the facts m'lud" and for nobody or thing to go misrepresented.
> But you seem go about it in a deliberately prickly way. I think that you know exactly what sort of reaction your comments will get, and make them that way on purpose. It makes you feel good when your opponents act in the way you predicted them to, and find this more rewarding than satisfying your original purported goals. Am I anywhere near the mark?


 
If you were near the mark, then I would probably not explicitly confirm it to be so. 

I am certainly a fan of accuracy and diligence but I'm not sure I've quite stated that I'm "only interested in a fair fight". There are other entertainments to be had along the way, of course. This is urban75 after all. If my comments are prickly then I think it is fair to say that generally they are aimed at those posters with their own brands of prickliness. 

I look down upon posts which consist simply of insults but I cannot complain about these because they are an inevitable result of sometimes engaging in what you describe as a prickly manner.

I also look down upon posters unable to detect when comments might be made a little tongue in cheek, and I look down upon them in a particularly self-righteous way.

On the whole though, I don't think I am in the habit of just making assertions and then refusing to even try to back them up, or respond to criticisms by saying "you are wrong and an idiot because I am saying you are wrong and an idiot, so there". I think it is reasonable to object to this kind of behaviour, and that's largely what I've been objecting to in this thread.


----------



## Crispy (Jul 31, 2012)

Fair enough. I just ignore it and move on. I come here for fun, and if I'm not having fun, I don't take part. Don't feel the need to get myself wound up by other peoples inconsistencies.


----------



## teuchter (Jul 31, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> It's simple. You look inward in a detached manner and assess whether what you're saying is reasoned, or whether it's informed by your prejudices, petty dislikes and biases.
> 
> Strip away your pettiness, bickering and self-righteousness and what's left, teuchter?


 
What's left is:
(1) editor writes something untrue
(2) I point this out
(3) editor calls me a clueless idiot or suchlike, with the adjectives used escalating in intensity over time to, for example, "poisonous" 

examining (2), as it is the step in the process which I am involved in carrying out, I find it to be reasoned, as (1) is easily demonstrated. I consider that what I choose to point out to be untrue is inevitably informed by my biases and prejudices, but that this does not change the fact that it is untrue, and i consider that I have provided reasons as to why I feel it should be pointed out, and I am prepared to discuss these with people without reverting to the "you're an idiot/wrong because I say you're an idiot/wrong" line.


----------



## teuchter (Jul 31, 2012)

Crispy said:


> Fair enough. I just ignore it and move on. I come here for fun, and if I'm not having fun, I don't take part. Don't feel the need to get myself wound up by other peoples inconsistencies.


 
That seems entirely reasonable to me and I have no objection to such an approach.


----------



## teuchter (Jul 31, 2012)

By the way, for further reading, I recommend consulting _The Nature of the Online Psyche, Kabbes K et al, 2008_


----------



## cesare (Jul 31, 2012)

I still haven't got a cloak


----------



## el-ahrairah (Aug 1, 2012)

http://www.brixtonblog.com/brick-box-seeks-licence-at-former-angel-pub-brixton/6096

la la la.


----------



## editor (Aug 1, 2012)

el-ahrairah said:


> http://www.brixtonblog.com/brick-box-seeks-licence-at-former-angel-pub-brixton/6096
> 
> la la la.


No one I know in the block even saw the proposal that was stuck on a bit of A4 inside the window in tiny writing. I really think that premises should be compelled to at least stick a few notices to lampposts when they were (originally) asking for something as drastic as a near 24-hour/7day a week music and drink licence.


----------



## teuchter (Aug 1, 2012)

24/7?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 1, 2012)

teuchter said:


> 24/7?


 
You missed "near".


----------



## teuchter (Aug 1, 2012)

The Brixton Blog thing says they are asking for a 2am license - were they originally asking for more than that?


----------



## editor (Aug 1, 2012)

teuchter said:


> The Brixton Blog thing says they are asking for a 2am license - were they originally asking for more than that?


Yes. They wanted the place to have a drinks and music licence that let them stay open from 8am right through to 5am, every day and night of the week, including Sundays.


----------



## colacubes (Aug 1, 2012)

teuchter said:


> The Brixton Blog thing says they are asking for a 2am license - were they originally asking for more than that?


 
I believe it was revised from something very close to 24/7.  I think it was originally something like 8am to 5am, 7 days a week.


----------



## colacubes (Aug 1, 2012)

JINX


----------



## ddraig (Aug 1, 2012)

teuchter said:


> 24/7?


  i am shocked that you are deliberately misquoting!, shocked i tell thee! 
and saddened


----------



## teuchter (Aug 1, 2012)

editor said:


> They've now covered up the entire artwork and associated scrawls, with a blue sheet masking the entire frontage.
> I presume this is because of the Olympic Torch.


 
I hear from other sources that this poster was also taken down for the torch relay, allegedly by Lambeth council:







I don't see any reason why either should have been covered up/removed.


----------



## gabi (Aug 1, 2012)

Crispy said:


> Fair enough. I just ignore it and move on. I come here for fun, and if I'm not having fun, I don't take part. Don't feel the need to get myself wound up by other peoples inconsistencies.


 
Crispy, not sure what this constitutes then?



Crispy said:


> teuchter: You've stated that you're only interested in a fair fight, that you want "just the facts m'lud" and for nobody or thing to go misrepresented.
> 
> But you seem go about it in a deliberately prickly way. I think that you know exactly what sort of reaction your comments will get, and make them that way on purpose. It makes you feel good when your opponents act in the way you predicted them to, and find this more rewarding than satisfying your original purported goals. Am I anywhere near the mark?


 
Seems a direct contradiction, unlike you...


----------



## Crispy (Aug 2, 2012)

I'm not wound up, just trying to understand.
I SAID I'M NOT WOUND UP.


----------



## han (Aug 2, 2012)

My god, is this thread still going? 
It's like Chinese water torture.


----------



## teuchter (Aug 3, 2012)

I note that the poster seems to have disappeared.


----------



## Badgers (Aug 5, 2012)

Heading to @BrixtonSplash today? Check out the art, performance, and the best jerk chicken in town at 354 Coldharbour Lane ITS FREE ENTRY!! -- The Brick Box Ladies (@thebrickbox)


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## teuchter (Aug 5, 2012)

They even had a sign up outside saying that when I passed on the way into Brixton around mid afternoon. It seemed to have disappeared when I went back past an hour or two ago though.


----------



## editor (Aug 5, 2012)

So the sign I made for them only lasted a few days.

Seems I wasted my time trying to help them. Or perhaps they really don't want locals to know what's going on or get involved.

That might also explain why their evening events never even have a poster or an A board outside advertising what's on, with the only sign of activity being the security guard patrolled, dark side entrance. Not exactly welcoming.


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## Orang Utan (Aug 5, 2012)

I don't know why I bother


----------



## editor (Aug 9, 2012)

I walked past the pub last night with several women from the residents association, all long term residents - and if you think I'm not too keen on what's been going on there, you should have heard them! They were_ scathing _about what's happened to the pub.

"Why are they trying to make the place look so bad?"
"Why are they trying to drag the area down with all this horrible graffiti?"
"Why don't they paint all this rubbish in the village instead"
"Why have they never spoken to us - we're the community, aren't we?"
"Who are these people? Why is the pub never open anymore?"

Etc etc.

PS My poster seems to have inexpicably vanished forever now, so I think even its staunchest defenders must realise now that the people involved really aren't that interested in getting the local community involved.


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 10, 2012)

editor said:


> No one I know in the block even saw the proposal that was stuck on a bit of A4 inside the window in tiny writing. I really think that premises should be compelled to at least stick a few notices to lampposts when they were (originally) asking for something as drastic as a near 24-hour/7day a week music and drink licence.


 
This is standard practise for licensing. A small official notice on premises is all that is required.

Planning applications have notice and also nearby properties get sent a letter (usually). I think the same should apply to license applications. People often do not notice the small notices put up.


----------



## CH1 (Aug 11, 2012)

Friday evening - the music was pumping when I went past to go to the Beehive at 10.30 pm and even more so on the way back home at 11.30 pm. Not a connoisseur of anything bland (except Philip Glass) I struggle to identify the genre, but is seemed to be some sort of progressive rock type stuff. 
There were assorted smokers (and a white photographer with a snazzy looking camera) outside milling about. Sort of representative of our new Brixton-chic multi ethnic edginess.
There was a portly (and comely) security guard virtually blocking the side entrance. The main doors of the pub were rattling violently. I was glad not to be inside - the sound level outside was more than enough for me. In fact one wonders whether the Noisy Party people might have been called by residents of the Viaduct (back side).
I did go into the 414 Club once (in 1997) and was amazed at how their sound proofing blocks the high level decibellage from leaking outside.  No such measures at the Angel - but then they only have it until next month - or so some artist type assured me at the London Community Foundation funding seminar at the Karibu last Wednesday. Not sure how in touch with reality he was because he went on to tell me that the landlords were demolishing it (which is impossible given their planning applications - unless the latest one which I have not yet studied is designed to upset the council as well as the residents).
The same guy - tall mixed race person with a fruity Yorkshire accent, said he was from Sheffield, had told me in the queue for food that he was a Conservative (which caused my eyebrows to rise invisibly).
He then went on in the briefing session about Grant Panel Protocol to tell several black women round the table that they were suffering from transference and had fallen in love with their oppressors.
Naturally I queried this "Are you a Marxist Conservative then? - you said you were a Conservative!"
"You heard that" was his only response to me.
I guess he is a performance artist.
I attended the Yoruba art exhibition last Sunday afternoon.  The main exhibit was a statue of a person called Rihanna, with whom I am unfamiliar. She was looking like one of those Benin Bronzes they had at the Nigerian exhibition at the British Museum a couple of years ago. Probably fake bronze I should think.
Mr Sheffield Conservative Marxist asked if I liked it - but I managed to switch deftly to another topic.
I thought the exhibition was actually a bit thin - the works of art were apparently for sale - but unpriced. The most interesting exhibit for me was what looked like a photo of the young Mohammed Ali (or possibly Cassius Clay) posing with some Nigerian-dressed people in front of what seemed to be an African house.  Looked for all the world like something produced by Magnum. As it might well have been.


----------



## teuchter (Aug 15, 2012)




----------



## gabi (Aug 15, 2012)

That looks fucking terrible


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## Kanda (Aug 15, 2012)

gabi said:


> That looks fucking terrible


 
The huge poster detailing their events or the graffiti?


----------



## gabi (Aug 15, 2012)

Kanda said:


> The huge poster detailing their events or the graffiti?


 
Why don't they just paint the place up nicely, open the windows, make it look cool - it's a great spot. Are they sitting in there behind desks, what's going on?


----------



## teuchter (Aug 15, 2012)

gabi said:


> That looks fucking terrible


 
_Scathing_


----------



## editor (Aug 15, 2012)

Hey teuchter: if you were sincere and enthusiastic about trying to get locals involved in a 'community' project, how would you advertise it?

(a) stick up large posters all round the building, being sure to place several on the façade that faces the very busy street outside, guaranteeing that passers by will see it?
(b) put just the one poster up in a semi-obscured alcove as far away from the main road as possible, in a very quiet side street where very few people walk by?
or maybe, even....
(c) open up the windows, open up the doors and invite people in to get involved?


----------



## editor (Aug 15, 2012)

teuchter said:


> _Scathing_


How do you think it looks?
Do you think it's an improvement to the area?
How would would you fancy looking out to that in your street?


----------



## teuchter (Aug 15, 2012)

I don't think it's the greatest work of art ever, but I don't find it especially offensive, seeing as it's only temporary. I'd rather that than a boarded-up building. Having done what they have done, I can see why they wouldn't then want to plaster it with posters.

As for the other questions... we've been over them hundreds of times already on this thread.

There clearly isn't a huge effort to involve the "local" community. As I've said already, if their aim is to heavily involve local residents then they are not going about it very well. However, I do think this criticism is based on a bit of a false premise. What "community" means exactly is open to interpretation; clearly you and others want it in this case to mean the geographically local community. They may have a more flexible definition of the word. Personally, I find "community" to have become a somewhat meaningless word, it's so overused.


----------



## editor (Aug 15, 2012)

teuchter said:


> I don't think it's the greatest work of art ever, but I don't find it especially offensive, seeing as it's only temporary. I'd rather that than a boarded-up building. Having done what they have done, I can see why they wouldn't then want to plaster it with posters.


It was never "boarded up" and I don't know anyone who thinks it represents an improvement to the area (see Resident Association's comments above). It's an ugly eyesore.

But you'd have no objection at all if the house opposite yours was covered in this scrawl in the name of 'community' art, yes?


----------



## teuchter (Aug 15, 2012)

editor said:


> It was never "boarded up" and I don't know anyone who thinks it represents an improvement to the area (see Resident Association's comments above). It's an ugly eyesore.
> 
> But you'd have no objection at all if the house opposite yours was covered in this scrawl in the name of 'community' art, yes?


 
No, I wouldn't have a particular objection. If it was permanent, maybe I would. I'd rather that than the badly painted scraggly hoarding that _is_ opposite my house.

To state the obvious, whether something's an eyesore is subjective.

I was thinking about the Nuclear Dawn mural just down the road. I actually don't think it's great as a piece of art. But I know some people like it. If I was the only person in London then I wouldn't choose to look out on it. However, this is a city with lots of people who like different things, and I don't expect everything I see on the streets to be fully to my personal taste.


----------



## editor (Aug 15, 2012)

teuchter said:


> To state the obvious, whether something's an eyesore is subjective.


It's a fucking mess, and if you were honest, you'd admit it too.


----------



## teuchter (Aug 15, 2012)

editor said:


> It's a fucking mess, and if you were honest, you'd admit it too.


 
Another great Editor argument: if you disagree with me you must be lying.


----------



## editor (Aug 15, 2012)

teuchter said:


> Another great Editor argument: if you disagree with me you must be lying.


I am sorry. You'd really like that graffiti outside your house, wouldn't you?


----------



## teuchter (Aug 15, 2012)

What do you think of the Nuclear Dawn mural editor?


----------



## editor (Aug 15, 2012)

teuchter said:


> What do you think of the Nuclear Dawn mural editor?


Sorry, but I'm not going along with your feeble attempt to shift the focus away from your crumbling arguments about the mess that's currently covering the walls of the Angel.


----------



## CH1 (Aug 15, 2012)

gabi said:


> Why don't they just paint the place up nicely, open the windows, make it look cool - it's a great spot. Are they sitting in there behind desks, what's going on?


The Shoreditch ladies sit in there on their iMacs - like the Three Norns in Götterdämmerung.
They are weaving the rope of Destiny (I'm sure that has a German name - but does not spring to mind). According to a novel someone gave me called "The Way of the Wyrd" the Saxons used to get up to this too. It goes back a long way.
 They are neutralising the bad vibes from me and the Editor - via iMac!


----------



## CH1 (Aug 15, 2012)

teuchter said:


> I don't think it's the greatest work of art ever


Rachel Heywood has promised me a site visit to the car wash this afternoon - I will get her view (artistically speaking of course).
Did anyone think to notify our carbuncle-hating heir to the throne?

NB The council took no chances when the torch went through - they put a blue tarpaulin up


----------



## editor (Aug 15, 2012)

CH1 said:


> NB The council took no chances when the torch went through - they put a blue tarpaulin up


Says a lot about the perceived quality of the 'art.'


----------



## ddraig (Aug 15, 2012)

teuchter said:


> What do you think of the Nuclear Dawn mural editor?


 aren't you just an hillarious squirmy thing!


----------



## teuchter (Aug 15, 2012)

editor said:


> Says a lot about the perceived quality of the 'art.'


 
If you were honest, you'd admit that the tarpaulin went up because you'd bunged some money to the council.


----------



## ddraig (Aug 15, 2012)

teuchter said:


> If you were honest, you'd admit that the tarpaulin went up because you'd bunged some money to the council.


 slander! 
or maybe more hillarious techter tittle tattle?


----------



## editor (Aug 15, 2012)

teuchter said:


> If you were honest, you'd admit that the tarpaulin went up because you'd bunged some money to the council.


It's one thing to suggest that someone may not be entirely honest when they've giving an opinion on art, but it's quite another to allege corruption and bribery involving the council.


----------



## CH1 (Aug 15, 2012)

teuchter said:


> What do you think of the Nuclear Dawn mural editor?


I know you didn't ask ME - but I wanted you to know I have a poster of the original version with Maggie, John Nott, David Steel and David Owen in the bunker.
 It hangs proudly on my kitchen wall in an alcove next to the fridge. On the opposite wall is another poster  - "Solidarity" from the ITF (International Transport Workers Federation). Nice sailors and ships and things in Soviet realist style.


----------



## CH1 (Aug 15, 2012)

teuchter said:


> If you were honest, you'd admit that the tarpaulin went up because you'd bunged some money to the council.


Maybe the Princes Trust bunged them a grant?
Give em a grant to fuck it up - then another one to hide the results if there is a danger of it appearing on international TV!


----------



## Kanda (Aug 15, 2012)

editor said:


> It's one thing to suggest that someone may not be entirely honest when they've giving an opinion on art, but it's quite another to allege corruption and bribery involving the council.


 
You took his post seriously??? 

Read as a joke post to me.


----------



## editor (Aug 15, 2012)

Kanda said:


> You took his post seriously???
> 
> Read as a joke post to me.


I don't care what you think. I don't like that kind of crap being posted up about me because things can get picked up out of context later on (as happened to me over Christmas where a horrendous tweet went out about me from some fuckwit - but that's another story).


----------



## teuchter (Aug 15, 2012)

You reap what you sow.


----------



## ddraig (Aug 15, 2012)

teuchter said:


> You reap what you sow.


 why are you such a cunt? 
what has been sown to you???


----------



## editor (Aug 15, 2012)

teuchter said:


> You reap what you sow.


So will you if you continue posting up such wild allegations. And some.


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 15, 2012)

Fucksake, take a few steps back everyone. If this thread is so easily found on google, it's not gonna give a very good impression of this site. Petty squabbling, babbling nutters and personal vendettas ahoy


----------



## Winot (Aug 15, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> Fucksake, take a few steps back everyone. If this thread is so easily found on google, it's not gonna give a very good impression of this site. Petty squabbling, babbling nutters and personal vendettas ahoy


 
But possibly an accurate one.


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## Brixton Hatter (Aug 15, 2012)

this is nearly as long as the Jimmy Saville thread now


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Oct 4, 2012)

Have they packed it in now or have people just got used to it?


----------



## Orang Utan (Oct 4, 2012)

The six months must be up now or soon.
Great big fail


----------



## editor (Oct 4, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> The six months must be up now or soon.
> Great big fail


My poster never saw the light of day again. What a waste of effort that was.

I think it might still be going though. I heard some music coming from inside last weekend, but, as ever, there was nothing outside inviting people in - no advertising, no billboard, no posters, no prices, windows closed etc.

The only sign of life was two bouncers looking bored by the side door, but apart from that it looked as closed as it's ever looked.


----------



## teuchter (Oct 4, 2012)

I walked past a couple of weekends ago - there was a sandwich board on the street titled "what's on" and with details of events. There was something happening inside. I didn't stop to take a picture because it was raining.


----------



## editor (Oct 4, 2012)

teuchter said:


> I walked past a couple of weekends ago - there was a sandwich board on the street titled "what's on" and with details of events. There was something happening inside. I didn't stop to take a picture because it was raining.


I've only once seen a board outside once, so it was probably the same one that you saw. 

Shame all the other events haven't bothered.


----------



## teuchter (Oct 4, 2012)

editor said:


> I've only once seen a board outside once, so it was probably the same one that you saw.
> 
> Shame all the other events haven't bothered.


Well, I've seen a board outside on two separate occasions, at least. And I only walk past maybe once every week or two. Yet you can see the place from your flat and have only seen a board out once. Funny that.


----------



## Rushy (Oct 4, 2012)

Is there any way to put a whole thread on ignore?


----------



## teuchter (Oct 4, 2012)

Rushy said:


> Is there any way to put a whole thread on ignore?


By not looking at it if you don't want to look at it.


----------



## editor (Oct 4, 2012)

teuchter said:


> Well, I've seen a board outside on two separate occasions, at least. And I only walk past maybe once every week or two. Yet you can see the place from your flat and have only seen a board out once. Funny that.


Whatever you say, squire.

Have you seen my poster too?


----------



## teuchter (Oct 4, 2012)

editor said:


> Whatever you say, squire.
> 
> Have you seen my poster too?


 
I saw it a few times but don't recall noticing it being there in the last month or so, maybe longer.


----------



## editor (Oct 4, 2012)

Their six-month spell of putting on self-indulgent events for themselves should be over soon anyway.


----------



## ddraig (Oct 4, 2012)

teuchter said:


> By not looking at it if you don't want to look at it.


indeed
and clicking 'unwatch thread' at the top of the page


----------



## editor (Oct 16, 2012)

Brick Box have now vacated the Angel (not that I imagine many locals will notice the difference).

It's rather a shame they didn't clear up the fucking mess they left behind, as new graffiti and shitty tags are now appearing on top of the 'artwork' they left all scrawled over the building.


----------



## bluestreak (Oct 16, 2012)

well, it was fun whilst it lasted etc.


----------



## Crispy (Oct 16, 2012)

Tesco or Sainsbury's d'ya reckon?


----------



## Brixton Hatter (Oct 16, 2012)

I saw builders in there earlier (trying to work out how to lock the front doors!)

Can I be the first to suggest a pop-up cider bar in the now empty building, to open in time for Christmas?


----------



## Brixton Hatter (Oct 16, 2012)

Crispy said:


> Tesco or Sainsbury's d'ya reckon?


I reckon they're more likely to set up next door in the 'Viaduct' or 'Brixton Square' because those units are brand new and won't require any building work. The Viaduct also has parking space outside.


----------



## Orang Utan (Oct 16, 2012)

Foxtons


----------



## Badgers (Oct 16, 2012)

Brixton Hatter said:
			
		

> Can I be the first to suggest a pop-up cider bar in the now empty building, to open in time for Christmas?



Our plan in action you say?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Oct 16, 2012)

Brixton Hatter said:


> I saw builders in there earlier (trying to work out how to lock the front doors!)
> 
> Can I be the first to suggest a pop-up cider bar in the now empty building, to open in time for Christmas?


 
A mulled wine bar instead!


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Oct 16, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> Foxtons


 
KFH


----------



## Badgers (Oct 16, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:
			
		

> A mulled wine bar instead!



Mulled cider


----------



## Brixton Hatter (Oct 16, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> A mulled wine bar instead!


We'll serve mulled cider...


----------



## Brixton Hatter (Oct 16, 2012)

ah great minds think alike


----------



## Orang Utan (Oct 16, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> KFH


i beg your pardon?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Oct 16, 2012)

Badgers said:


> Mulled cider


 
Saki


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Oct 16, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> i beg your pardon?


 
http://www.kfh.co.uk/


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Oct 16, 2012)

Brixton Hatter said:


> We'll serve mulled cider...


----------



## Crispy (Oct 16, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> http://www.kfh.co.uk/


I thought you were saying kentucky fried hipster


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Oct 16, 2012)

Crispy said:


> I thought you were saying kentucky fried hipster


 
Now there's an idea!


----------



## teuchter (Oct 16, 2012)

editor said:


> Brick Box have now vacated the Angel (not that I imagine many locals will notice the difference).


 
Surely they'll notice the sudden cessation of the constant hoity-toity partying, rowdy aristo dinner clubs and 24hr noise pollution?


----------



## editor (Oct 16, 2012)

teuchter said:


> Surely they'll notice the sudden cessation of the constant hoity-toity partying, rowdy aristo dinner clubs and 24hr noise pollution?


They certainly won't miss any community events seeing as Brick Box offered none, but at least you won't have to step past any more of those phantom notice boards.

So, how are you liking how they've left the pub looking for locals? Looking good to your eyes?


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Oct 17, 2012)

Crispy said:


> Tesco or Sainsbury's d'ya reckon?


 
Waitrose.


----------



## editor (Oct 17, 2012)

It's already been sold to property developers who will be turning it into flats. Brick Box were just there to soften up the place ready for the big sale.


----------



## Chilavert (Oct 17, 2012)

editor said:


> It's already been sold to property developers who will be turning it into flats. Brick Box were just there to soften up the place ready for the big sale.


Are the planning permissions in place Ed?

Apologies if this has been covered elsewhere.


----------



## editor (Oct 17, 2012)

Chilavert said:


> Are the planning permissions in place Ed?
> 
> Apologies if this has been covered elsewhere.


The plans are in place for the 'vibrant' location.


> Lexadon are pleased to announce planning permission for three mews houses, Five high-specification apartments and one commercial space. With its original features and vibrant location Lexadon are excited to be working on this development.
> Lexadon are pleased to announce planning permission for three mews houses, Five high-specification apartments and one commercial space. With its original features and vibrant location Lexadon are excited to be working on this development.


----------



## gabi (Oct 17, 2012)

What's happening to Prince Charles' money then?


----------



## editor (Oct 17, 2012)

gabi said:


> What's happening to Prince Charles' money then?


Wasn't he just wheeled in for the funding-boosting, grant-bagging photo op?


----------



## gabi (Oct 17, 2012)

I cant remember now. I thought he was giving him cash.

here's their take on it anyway.




> In Spring 2012 The Brick Box negotiated a 6 month trial use of an exciting and well-known space in Brixton, 354 Coldharbour Lane, formerly The Angel public house.
> 
> 
> Over the past six months we have aimed to:
> ...


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## Badgers (Oct 17, 2012)

gabi said:


> What's happening to Prince Charles' money then?


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## editor (Oct 17, 2012)

> Through this opportunity, The Brick Box has been able to support partnership organisations and community networks, job seekers, creative entrepreneurs, young people, local business start-ups, charities and over 200 artists and musicians, from Brixton and beyond.


They certainly know how to talk the funding talk. In reality, the place was closed up and shuttered 95% of the time. Probably more, in fact.


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## twistedAM (Oct 17, 2012)

editor said:


> Wasn't he just wheeled in for the funding-boosting, grant-bagging photo op?


 
Naw, he'd just popped into Brixton for a beer with his old mate Skidders.


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## Badgers (Oct 17, 2012)

gabi said:


> here's their take on it anyway.


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## Brixton Hatter (Oct 17, 2012)

> This is Brick Box CIC, a social enterprise and community interest company, is now seeking funding for future projects, details of which will be announced on this website.


 
Aren't social enterprises supposed to make money (to further their ends) rather than just use up grants?


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## snowy_again (Oct 18, 2012)

To some extent; there should be a set agreed surplus amount in their operating documents that doesn't need to be reinvested into furthering the aim of the organisation. SE's aren't the answer to every problem and aren't always going to be financially self sustaining.


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## Badgers (Oct 18, 2012)

Brixton Hatter said:


> Aren't social enterprises supposed to make money (to further their ends) rather than just use up grants?


 
Where would someone go to report this?


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## snowy_again (Oct 18, 2012)

Report them for what? Other than being woefully inept at community engagement, they're doing what the law allows them to do, which is blend grants and profit making activity.


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## Badgers (Oct 18, 2012)

snowy_again said:


> Report them for what? Other than being woefully inept at community engagement, they're doing what the law allows them to do, which is blend grants and profit making activity.


 
Still. Someone might want to investigate


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## snowy_again (Oct 18, 2012)

Well their reputation will probably precede them! This thread is page two on a google search of "Brick Box Brixton".


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## editor (Oct 25, 2012)

It think it might be awfully nice if Brick Box took the trouble to clear up the mess they left behind.


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## ddraig (Oct 25, 2012)

butbutbut their creative energies need healing in a new place where they can inspire and 'involve' the local community there to be artistic and evoke the streets they tread.
how cruel of you to suggest they abandon their new hope and return to a finsished project who's funding has run out
new pots need to plunged for the sake of fun frivolity and of course ART!


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## Badgers (Oct 25, 2012)

> The Brick Box Ladies ‏@thebrickbox
> Looking for a surveyor to do a condition survey of an old building on a no win no fee basis for an arts project in central ldn...any ideas?


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## teuchter (Oct 25, 2012)

What is a "win" in the context of doing a building survey? If you say the building's falling down we don't pay you?


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## ddraig (Oct 25, 2012)

yes strange that one


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## Dan U (Oct 25, 2012)

it's a ham fisted way of saying 'free' i think.


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## RaverDrew (Oct 25, 2012)

why not just say pro bono ?


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## Crispy (Oct 25, 2012)

RaverDrew said:


> why not just say pro bono ?


Cos he's a cunt?


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## RaverDrew (Oct 25, 2012)




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## editor (Oct 25, 2012)

The building is now being advertised for rent as a restaurant/wine bar. Anything's got to be better than Brick Box, really.


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## Badgers (Oct 25, 2012)

I thought it was going to be flats?


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## editor (Oct 25, 2012)

Badgers said:


> I thought it was going to be flats?


The rest of the building is.


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## Badgers (Oct 25, 2012)

editor said:


> The rest of the building is.


 
I see.


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## editor (Oct 25, 2012)

Badgers said:


> I see.


Some cynics are suggesting the A3 use part of the building may suffer the same fate as the Warrior/Junction.


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## DJWrongspeed (Oct 25, 2012)

editor said:


> Some cynics are suggesting the A3 use part of the building may suffer the same fate as the Warrior/Junction.


Exactly, whose going to want to run a bar with flats on top and at the back.

Talking of art spaces, anyone been here on Brixton Rd , block336 ?


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## RaverDrew (Oct 25, 2012)

editor said:


> Some cynics are suggesting the A3 use part of the building may suffer the same fate as the Warrior/Junction.


 
There's no Tesco or Sainsbury round there for at least 200 yds


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## Crispy (Oct 25, 2012)

DJWrongspeed said:


> Exactly, whose going to want to run a bar with flats on top and at the back.
> 
> Talking of art spaces, anyone been here on Brixton Rd , block336 ?


Ah, that's the old Coutts building
http://www.urban75.net/forums/threa...the-unexpected-coutts-bank-connection.271398/


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## quimcunx (Oct 25, 2012)

I like the Coutts building. I want it for my project; the one Grand Designs will film.


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## Brixton Hatter (Oct 25, 2012)

DJWrongspeed said:


> Exactly, whose going to want to run a bar with flats on top and at the back.
> 
> Talking of art spaces, anyone been here on Brixton Rd , block336 ?


Not been there - looks like it's only open until tomorrow. Interesting though.

The building is a bit random. I think the upper floors are residential but the large downstairs bit has been used as a church, an exhibition space and for council meetings. Will try to have a look tomorrow as I'd like to see inside.


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## snowy_again (Oct 26, 2012)

A random aside: the BITC website is rubbish.


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## teuchter (Nov 22, 2012)

I noticed a few days ago, by the way, that the building has now been painted Polite Gentrification Grey.

Hopefully the trauma induced by a few months of bright colours will now be fading away, and the Local Community can pull through.


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## boohoo (Nov 22, 2012)

DJWrongspeed said:


> Exactly, whose going to want to run a bar with flats on top and at the back.
> 
> Talking of art spaces, anyone been here on Brixton Rd , block336 ?


 
I been to an exhibition there -great space for big art!


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## editor (Nov 22, 2012)

teuchter said:


> I noticed a few days ago, by the way, that the building has now been painted Polite Gentrification Grey.


Even by your desperate standards, describing it as 'polite gentrification grey' is laughably off-target - in fact, that's the colour the pub was when it was a working community pub.  

All the locals I know are delighted to see the back of that shitty scrawl, but if you liked it so much, perhaps you could invite them in to add their own tags all over your living room walls?


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## teuchter (Nov 22, 2012)

editor said:


> Even by your desperate standards, describing it as 'polite gentrification grey' is laughably off-target - in fact, that's the colour the pub was when it was a working community pub.


 
you mean the brief period when it was rebranded to appeal to gentrification types, complete with graffiti style lettering, before it finally closed?







Previous to that it was a kind of orangey brown colour:


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## editor (Nov 22, 2012)

teuchter said:


> you mean the brief period when it was rebranded to appeal to gentrification types, complete with graffiti style lettering, before it finally closed?


You really have no idea at all. Did you set foot in the place when it was painted grey?
You really do post up some embarrassingly clueless shite, you know.


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## teuchter (Nov 22, 2012)

editor said:


> You really have no idea at all. Did you set foot in the place when it was painted grey?


 
Nope. I'm talking about the external appearance, and the market that that colour and style of lettering was intended to appeal to. Who actually used the place is another matter.

Was getting rid of the traditional signage, and rebranding as "bar and restaurant" in response to what the non-gentrified segment of the local community was after?


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## editor (Nov 22, 2012)

teuchter said:


> Nope. I'm talking about the external appearance, and the market that that colour and style of lettering was intended to appeal to. Who actually used the place is another matter.
> 
> Was getting rid of the traditional signage, and rebranding as "bar and restaurant" in response to what the non-gentrified segment of the local community was after?


It was fuck all to do with gentrification and if you'd got off your arse and gone in rather than commenting cluelessly from a position of ignorance you would have seen that for yourself.


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## teuchter (Nov 22, 2012)

Was getting rid of the traditional signage, and rebranding as "bar and restaurant" in response to what the non-gentrified segment of the local community was after?


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## editor (Nov 22, 2012)

teuchter said:


> Was getting rid of the traditional signage, and rebranding as "bar and restaurant" in response to what the non-gentrified segment of the local community was after?


If you'd got off your arse and actually_ used_ the place you would have seen exactly who it was aimed at and who was using the place, but feel free to keep on talking clueless bollocks. It's rather entertaining seeing you dig yourself in deeper and deeper.


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## teuchter (Nov 22, 2012)

editor said:


> If you'd got off your arse and actually_ used_ the place you would have seen exactly who it was aimed at and who was using the place, but feel free to keep on talking clueless bollocks. It's rather entertaining seeing you dig yourself in deeper and deeper.


As usual, refusing to answer the actual question asked, then.

I take it that as you never went into the place while it was run by Brick Box, all your opinions on this thread about its appearance and what went on inside have been "clueless bollocks".


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## Onket (Nov 22, 2012)




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## editor (Nov 22, 2012)

teuchter said:


> As usual, refusing to answer the actual question asked, then.


Grey paint = gentrification? You really have lost the plot.


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## teuchter (Nov 22, 2012)

Was getting rid of the traditional signage, and rebranding as "bar and restaurant" in response to what the non-gentrified segment of the local community was after?


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## Onket (Nov 22, 2012)




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## editor (Nov 22, 2012)

teuchter said:


> Was getting rid of the traditional signage, and rebranding as "bar and restaurant" in response to what the non-gentrified segment of the local community was after?


Like a lot of struggling pubs, they hoped that by giving the pub a lick of paint, a bit of a rebrand and offering some Caribbean food they may have kept their heads above water.  The character of the pub barely changed and the changes had nothing to do with 'gentrification', it was more about trying to give a tired old pub a new lease of life and trying to attract more locals in. 

Sadly, it didn't work.


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## editor (Nov 22, 2012)

Onket said:


> <yawn>


If you haven't got anything on topic to add, why don't you fuck off with your tiresome, childish and disruptive shit?


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## editor (Nov 22, 2012)

It wasn't that long ago that the main bar had a hefty metal column put in to stop the roof falling down - that's how run down it had become.


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## Onket (Nov 22, 2012)

editor said:


> If you haven't got anything on topic to add, why don't you fuck off with your tiresome, childish and disruptive shit?


 
There was me thinking this was a public messageboard, for people to post on!

Silly me.

@editor


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## editor (Nov 22, 2012)

Onket said:


> There was me thinking this was a public messageboard, for people to post on!


We have rules and the main one is: don't act like a dick. Try to abide by that and we'll all get along fine.


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## Onket (Nov 22, 2012)

Do you ever apply the rules to yourself? That particular one especially?


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## editor (Nov 22, 2012)

Onket said:


> Do you ever apply the rules to yourself? That particular one especially?


Have you anything to add to this discussion about the Angel pub or not?


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## Onket (Nov 22, 2012)

Are you ever able to answer a straight question?


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## Giles (Nov 23, 2012)

DJWrongspeed said:


> Exactly, whose going to want to run a bar with flats on top and at the back.


 
No-one. They always say this, and then, after a period of pretending to offer the ground floor for rent as a bar, and unsurprisingly not finding any takers, then end up letting it as a shop or something.

Even leaving aside the problem of the residents living above a newly-opened bar inevitably complaining about noise, pubs and bars tend to need their upstairs accommodation so at least the owner / manager can live in, and possibly some staff can be "paid" partly in a room to live in.

For some reason, councils seem to accept these totally specious claims that the ground floor of a converted pub can still work as a pub when shorn of its upper floors.

Giles..


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## editor (Nov 23, 2012)

Giles said:


> No-one. They always say this, and then, after a period of pretending to offer the ground floor for rent as a bar, and unsurprisingly not finding any takers, then end up letting it as a shop or something.
> 
> Even leaving aside the problem of the residents living above a newly-opened bar inevitably complaining about noise, pubs and bars tend to need their upstairs accommodation so at least the owner / manager can live in, and possibly some staff can be "paid" partly in a room to live in.
> 
> ...


Yep. I'l be amazed if the Angel comes back as a bar. It's been well and truly Warrior'd. 

I note the ground floor 'office' space on the nearby shonky Viaduct development remains empty and unloved, ready to be turned into flats or - it seems - the inevitable conversion into another ruddy supermarket.


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## RaverDrew (Jan 24, 2013)

> *The Brick Box*
> Here's a message from one of our associate producers at Art Nouveau Brixton, a brilliant new arts facility in Brixton...
> 
> Do you run an event, club or meet up in the weekday? Are you looking for space to host your activity? Why not have it at Art Nouveau Brixton?
> ...


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## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Jan 24, 2013)

Heh, time for round 2...

Is this a new venue they've got?


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## ddraig (Jan 24, 2013)

oh dear!


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## editor (Jan 24, 2013)

"Associate producer" sounds like a fun job.


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## RaverDrew (Jan 24, 2013)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> Heh, time for round 2...
> 
> Is this a new venue they've got?


77 Atlantic Rd


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## editor (Jan 24, 2013)

Oh, I'm thinking it might make more sense to start a new thread as it doesn't seem fair to tar this new venture with all the warm glow of community goodwill that their Angel venture generated.


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## el-ahrairah (Jan 24, 2013)

at least this lot aren't pretending to be a community organisation.


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## editor (Jan 24, 2013)

el-ahrairah said:


> at least this lot aren't pretending to be a community organisation.


Yep.


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## snowy_again (Jan 24, 2013)

RaverDrew said:


> 77 Atlantic Rd


 
Which is the old hardware / Mr Bigg shop that's now some sort of vintage fashion thing?


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## editor (Jan 24, 2013)

snowy_again said:


> Which is the old hardware / Mr Bigg shop that's now some sort of vintage fashion thing?


Yes. It's a beautiful building. The vintage shop is just temporarily there.


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## CH1 (Mar 11, 2013)

Did my eyes deceive me, or have the outbuildings at the back of the Angel recently been demolished?


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## boohoo (Mar 11, 2013)

Leave the 77 Atlantic road out of it - local person who has worked with Brick Box tries to make a living.


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## editor (Mar 11, 2013)

CH1 said:


> Did my eyes deceive me, or have the outbuildings at the back of the Angel recently been demolished?


Yep. Flattened. Yup flats ahoy!


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## CH1 (Mar 11, 2013)

editor said:


> Yep. Flattened. Yup flats ahoy!


I won't like - its sad seeing a bit more local character eroded. Time for some pics?


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## editor (Apr 10, 2014)

I keep hearing rumours that the all-gentrifying grip of the Village Effect is likely to claim another victim, with the Angel's ground floor being turned into an upmarket 'gourmet' burger experience. 

If it turns out to be affordable, then I'm all for it as I'd rather see the building being put to use (although I'd much rather it revert back to being a pub), but if it turns out to be another premium-priced joint for those with Jay Rayner sized wallets, I'll be disappointed.


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## Rushy (Apr 10, 2014)

We have a plethora of burgers already. Plenty of affordable and premium. So I'll be disappointed if it is either.


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## Onket (Apr 10, 2014)

editor said:


> I keep hearing rumours that the all-gentrifying grip of the Village Effect is likely to claim another victim, with the Angel's ground floor being turned into an upmarket 'gourmet' burger experience.



The same 'victim' then, rather than 'another'.


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## editor (Apr 10, 2014)

I'm going to take a wild stab in the dark and guess that whatever business starts up in the Angel, it will be aimed directly at the nu-Brixton/Village demographic, rather than the people living directly opposite. And if I'm right, that would be a shame.


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## leanderman (Apr 10, 2014)

editor said:


> I'm going to take a wild stab in the dark and guess that whatever business starts up in the Angel, it will be aimed directly at the nu-Brixton/Village demographic, rather than the people living directly opposite. And if I'm right, that would be a shame.



Follow the money


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## Onket (Apr 10, 2014)

editor said:


> I'm going to take a wild stab in the dark and guess that whatever business starts up in the Angel, it will be aimed directly at the nu-Brixton/Village demographic, rather than the people living directly opposite. And if I'm right, that would be a shame.


Completely agree.


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## CH1 (Apr 15, 2014)

Noticed yesterday early evening people were moving into the flats above - and today the blinds are up. I don't think the "Mews" units at the back are occupied yet though.


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## editor (Apr 16, 2014)

CH1 said:


> Noticed yesterday early evening people were moving into the flats above - and today the blinds are up. I don't think the "Mews" units at the back are occupied yet though.


No, they're not finished yet. They look *tiny*.


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## editor (Aug 29, 2014)

The Angel is up for A3/A4 retail use.


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## DietCokeGirl (Aug 30, 2014)

Let's all chip in and make it the urban co-op pub.


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## Rushy (Aug 30, 2014)

£39,500pa


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## DietCokeGirl (Aug 30, 2014)

I've got 62p and half a packet of revels, to start us off.


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## boohoo (Aug 30, 2014)

A pop-up  urban75 festival?


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## el-ahrairah (Aug 31, 2014)

wherever 3 urbanites are gathered together with a minirig and some ketamine, there is a pop-up urban75 festival.


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## editor (Sep 1, 2014)

DietCokeGirl said:


> Let's all chip in and make it the urban co-op pub.


It can never function as a decent pub again now that the upstairs and the rear of the building have turned into lifestyle flats.


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## Thimble Queen (Sep 1, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> wherever 3 urbanites are gathered together with a minirig and some ketamine, there is a pop-up urban75 festival.



Saturday on Brockwell park then


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## boohoo (Sep 1, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> wherever 3 urbanites are gathered together with a minirig and some ketamine, there is a pop-up urban75 festival.



Wherever 3 urbanites are gathered together with their kids and a picnic, there is a pop-up urban75 family festival.


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## CH1 (Sep 1, 2014)

editor said:


> It can never function as a decent pub again now that the upstairs and the rear of the building have turned into lifestyle flats.


Personally I think Jerry Knight missed a trick here. He could have pitched for the Shrub and Shutter - then all the lifestyle types wouldn't have had so far to go -  and they would have had more space to socialise in over the cocktails.


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## editor (Jul 1, 2015)

The old pub will soon be opening up as a branch of Mamma Dough: http://mammadough.co.uk/

Most of their pizzas are priced at the higher end: £8-£11 (compare this with Franco Manco's much cheaper £4.50-£6.95 range), but they thankfully don't seem to be too burdened with hipster buzzwords. 

It'll definitely be good to see the building finally being used again, although - personally - I would have liked to have seen something a bit more affordable for the locals.


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## tompound (Jul 1, 2015)

Will obviously put a lot of pressure on the businesses on that stretch, landlords will take note.


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## editor (Jul 1, 2015)

tompound said:


> Will obviously put a lot of pressure on the businesses on that stretch, landlords will take note.


Oh, it'll be an extension of the Village before long - with all the inequalities that brings -  with yet more tourists coming down from the Village to gawk at the rough old Barrier Block opposite.


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## CH1 (Jul 1, 2015)

editor said:


> Oh, it'll be an extension of the Village before long - with all the inequalities that brings -  with yet more tourists coming down from the Village to gawk at the rough old Barrier Block opposite.


The shop next to Slug and Shutter seems almost ready for occupation as well.


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## editor (Jul 1, 2015)

CH1 said:


> The shop next to Slug and Shutter seems almost ready for occupation as well.


There's a couple of shops there looking all primed'n'ready to go 'upmarket' now.


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## snowy_again (Jul 1, 2015)

Who are their landlords?


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## CH1 (Jul 1, 2015)

snowy_again said:


> Who are their landlords?


The one next to Shrub and shutter is a recent planning application (within the last 2 years) so you could get it there.

The Angel is Lexadon.

I am not sure which other unit editor is referring to - possibly the former William Hills betting shop. This has been on the market for about a year, and I do not know who owns the freehold.


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## teuchter (Jul 1, 2015)

editor said:


> Oh, it'll be an extension of the Village before long - with all the inequalities that brings -  with yet more tourists coming down from the Village to gawk at the rough old Barrier Block opposite.


I noted the Barrier block described as "iconic" and "portered" in an airbnb listing for a nice looking flat therein, recently. Soon it will be to Brixton as the Trellick tower is to Notting Hill.


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## CH1 (Jul 1, 2015)

teuchter said:


> I noted the Barrier block described as "iconic" and "portered" in an airbnb listing for a nice looking flat therein, recently. Soon it will be to Brixton as the Trellick tower is to Notting Hill.


Well it is iconic and portered - what do you want them to say?


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## editor (Jul 1, 2015)

CH1 said:


> I am not sure which other unit editor is referring to - possibly the former William Hills betting shop. This has been on the market for about a year, and I do not know who owns the freehold.


There's these two betwixt the old hi-fi shop and Gresham cafe:



And this one next to the Shrub:



The old betting shop is still awaiting transformation/gentrification, as is the unit next to Jimmy's Plaice.


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## CH1 (Jul 1, 2015)

editor said:


> There's these two betwixt the old hi-fi shop and Gresham cafe:
> View attachment 73476
> And this one next to the Shrub:
> View attachment 73477
> The old betting shop is still awaiting transformation/gentrification, as is the unit next to Jimmy's Plaice.


To answer snowy_again further then:

I think the shop next to the Gresham Cafe (ex George hairdressers) belongs to the proprietor of Gresham Cafe, also called George.

ALSO the  former GF Fell electrical shop belongs to a chap from Morden who has taken ages to do it up - partly because Lambeth Planning wouldn't allow him to build extra rooms at the back (quite necessary as George Fell never used the upstairs and it didn't even have a bathroom).   
Typical of Lambeth - they like people to open restaurants but get all shirty if you want a bathroom or spare bedroom!
Anyway that one (342) is about ready now.


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## CH1 (Jul 2, 2015)

Sorry to wander further off-topic but I just found this classified ad in the British Medical Journal 16th December 1978:


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## snowy_again (Jul 2, 2015)

CH1 said:


> To answer snowy_again further then:
> 
> I think the shop next to the Gresham Cafe (ex George hairdressers) belongs to the proprietor of Gresham Cafe, also called George.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the reply - so presumably first or second generation? Hardly surprised that elements of LB Lambeth  planning have differing speeds - I'm not sure quite how people go into those careers - it's an unusual vocation.


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## CH1 (Jul 2, 2015)

snowy_again said:


> Thanks for the reply - so presumably first or second generation? Hardly surprised that elements of LB Lambeth  planning have differing speeds - I'm not sure quite how people go into those careers - it's an unusual vocation.


I think George the barber is second cousin to George the cafe owner. Something liker that.


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## ChrisSouth (Jul 2, 2015)

editor said:


> The old pub will soon be opening up as a branch of Mamma Dough: http://mammadough.co.uk/
> 
> Most of their pizzas are priced at the higher end: £8-£11 (compare this with Franco Manco's much cheaper £4.50-£6.95 range), but they thankfully don't seem to be too burdened with hipster buzzwords.
> 
> It'll definitely be good to see the building finally being used again, although - personally - I would have liked to have seen something a bit more affordable for the locals.



It's good to see this stretch of units being used.


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## CH1 (Jul 2, 2015)

snowy_again said:


> Thanks for the reply - so presumably first or second generation? Hardly surprised that elements of LB Lambeth  planning have differing speeds - I'm not sure quite how people go into those careers - it's an unusual vocation.


At the moment the process seems to involve setting up a consultancy company and advertising on Linked-In. Unlike 20 years ago when being part of the Lambeth Council furniture was an advantage, currently a fresh approach heralding from Australia or Poland seems best.


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## editor (Oct 16, 2015)

The Angel: How the fate of a Brixton pub explains the effects of gentrification in a nutshell
The Angel failed to fit in with Brixton’s new look

How a Brixton pub explains the effects of gentrification in a nutshell


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Oct 16, 2015)

editor said:


> The Angel: How the fate of a Brixton pub explains the effects of gentrification in a nutshell
> The Angel failed to fit in with Brixton’s new look
> 
> How a Brixton pub explains the effects of gentrification in a nutshell



Not a great article is it. Gentrification summed up in a couple of short paragraphs. 

Bit of a shame - when I saw the headline I thought it might be a bit more substantial.


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## T & P (Oct 16, 2015)

The pub might have failed to fit with Brixton's new look, but the white, middle class liberal journalist who wrote the article certainly fits like a glove


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## trabuquera (Oct 16, 2015)

also horsesh*t to end with the "I couldn't get a table" line - any time I've walked past the new Mamma Dough pizza place it's been echoingly empty - which IMHO only is a shame as the pizza is fine and the Italian staff pretty friendly. (Yes of course I would rather it was a thriving diverse local pub - just pointing out the poverty of the Indi article.)


----------



## editor (Oct 16, 2015)

trabuquera said:


> also horsesh*t to end with the "I couldn't get a table" line - any time I've walked past the new Mamma Dough pizza place it's been echoingly empty - which IMHO only is a shame as the pizza is fine and the Italian staff pretty friendly. (Yes of course I would rather it was a thriving diverse local pub - just pointing out the poverty of the Indi article.)


That claim is indeed utter bollocks. I've never seen the place packed.

Their pizzas are good but £11 for a takeaway veggie pizza - no matter how good - stings the wallet way to much for my liking.


----------

