# XBox 360 upgraded today..sort of...



## Sunray (Jun 1, 2009)

A lot of press about what might be coming along but not much actual product.

The most notable is the badly named Natal controller free gaming device, prepared to be annoyed by the demo video.

http://www.engadget.com/2009/06/01/microsoft-announces-motion-controller-for-xbox-360/

Could be fun


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## Kid_Eternity (Jun 1, 2009)

Twitter and Facebook to be accessible and Sky being pumped directly into your Xbox are a bit more interesting imo...


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## Kid_Eternity (Jun 1, 2009)

That video is far beyond mad and I just don't believe it'll be anywhere near like that once released...

Anyway, in other news there's a Star Wars mmo coming by the look of it.



> BioWare and LucasArts came out during the EA press conference to announce the new MMO Star Wars: The Old Republic.  Playing the game from the different sides (Empire vs. Republic) will give you completely different experiences.  Each character in the game will also have unique voices, which will make this game possibly the biggest voice-over project in the history of gaming.
> 
> The trailer is extremely impressive, which features some good light saber dueling between the factions.  The previously announced Star Wars MMO has been mentioned to be on the XBox 360 in the past, but nothing was mentioned at the press conference.  We will make sure to let you know as soon as we do.  But, what we do know for sure is that the game looks absolutely beautiful.



E2A: Trailer's pretty fucking cool! http://www.swtor.com/media/trailers/deceived-cinematic-trailer


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## Awesome Wells (Jun 2, 2009)

360 + MMO = fail.

Silly gimmicky camera controller = fail.

in conclusion M$ remain fail.

sincerely yours.


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## LoveMeDont (Jun 2, 2009)

I don't see why console makers don't just release a keyboard and mouse for their respective systems. It must be a lot cheaper then spending millions on these 'revolutionary' controllers and it will have the added benefit of not making the people using it look like they are having an epileptic fit as they play. 

Something like this, maybe. http://uk.gamespot.com/news/6141718.html


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## Crispy (Jun 2, 2009)

jesus no. mouse and keyboard is even worse than joypad for sitting in a couch to play games. the big problem with gaming is that the barrier to entry is so high. anyone can sit down and watch a movie - it doesn't take special skills. but to enjoy games, you have to master complex hand-eye coordination with a device covered in sticks and buttons. research like this is absolutely crucial if gaming is ever going to become a mainstream medium.


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## mwgdrwg (Jun 2, 2009)

I watched the whole conference and here were my highlights...

Superb looking sequels...Left For Dead 2, Crackdown 2, Forza 3, Halo ODST

I will be able to play the next Metal Gear on my Xbox 

Premier League football with Sky

Twtter and Last.FM! Lovely radio whenever i want it 

ps Project Natal is just the code-name.


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## Awesome Wells (Jun 2, 2009)

Crispy said:


> jesus no. mouse and keyboard is even worse than joypad for sitting in a couch to play games. the big problem with gaming is that the barrier to entry is so high. anyone can sit down and watch a movie - it doesn't take special skills. but to enjoy games, you have to master complex hand-eye coordination with a device covered in sticks and buttons. research like this is absolutely crucial if gaming is ever going to become a mainstream medium.


because people aren't used to using mouses and keyboards anyway


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## ruffneck23 (Jun 2, 2009)

people have been using mouse and keyboards for gaming on pcs well well before the next gen consoles came out....

Think Doom, this was released even before the PS 1 came out in 95


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## internetstalker (Jun 2, 2009)

Awesome Wells said:


> 360 + MMO = fail.
> 
> Silly gimmicky camera controller = fail.
> 
> ...



But you hate everything!


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## dlx1 (Jun 2, 2009)

mouses and keyboards SOOOO much better for RP & TF2 
its ok on Xbox But to have mouse and keyboard on Xbox and play TF2


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## Awesome Wells (Jun 2, 2009)

internetstalker said:


> But you hate everything!


i hate you.


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## LoveMeDont (Jun 2, 2009)

Crispy said:


> jesus no. mouse and keyboard is even worse than joypad for sitting in a couch to play games. the big problem with gaming is that the barrier to entry is so high. anyone can sit down and watch a movie - it doesn't take special skills. but to enjoy games, you have to master complex hand-eye coordination with a device covered in sticks and buttons. research like this is absolutely crucial if gaming is ever going to become a mainstream medium.



With something like the Phantom lapboard I linked to you could sit on your couch and play, no problem. Even if you couldn't, it must be a hell of a lot more comfortable then doing this:


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## kained&able (Jun 2, 2009)

ruffneck23 said:


> people have been using mouse and keyboards for gaming on pcs well well before the next gen consoles came out....
> 
> Think Doom, this was released even before the PS 1 came out in 95



you didn't use a mouse in doom or doom 2, well not properly anyway.

anyway cripsy was merely pointing out that keyboards and mice don't lend them selves to being on a sofa, in your sitting room. You need a desk.

Therefore consoles with keyboards/mice are a bad idea, despite it being much more accurate for fps and command and conquer type games.


dave


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## tommers (Jun 2, 2009)

LoveMeDont said:


> With something like the Phantom lapboard I linked to you could sit on your couch and play, no problem. Even if you couldn't, it must be a hell of a lot more comfortable then doing this:



Strange, cos that's pretty much how the Wii has managed to outsell absolutely everybody else.


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## ruffneck23 (Jun 2, 2009)

kained&able said:


> you didn't use a mouse in doom or doom 2, well not properly anyway.
> 
> anyway cripsy was merely pointing out that keyboards and mice don't lend them selves to being on a sofa, in your sitting room. You need a desk.
> 
> ...



I wasnt disagreeing with Crispy 

I was answering AWells' statement that people arent used to using Keyboard and mouse with the added rolleyes.......


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## kyser_soze (Jun 2, 2009)

kained&able said:


> you didn't use a mouse in doom or doom 2, well not properly anyway.
> 
> anyway cripsy was merely pointing out that keyboards and mice don't lend them selves to being on a sofa, in your sitting room. You need a desk.
> 
> ...



I've oft thought* about how one could overcome the space & utility problem of this, as I agree about the keyboard vs joypad thing...maybe some kind of Wii-style 2 piece device which only has the useful keys and a motion sensor?


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## Crispy (Jun 2, 2009)

Awesome Wells said:


> because people aren't used to using mouses and keyboards anyway


Not in a gaming context, no.

You and I are 'gamers' - we know how to work complex modern games with intricate controls. Have you ever seen someone who's never played games before try and use mouse and keys, or a modern joypad? It's instant fail. They stagger in circles looking at teh floor, and look down at their hands to figure out where the red button is while getting shot to death. The very fact that there is a subculture of 'gamers' speaks volumes. The pastime as we know it is elitist by its very nature.

However, see how quickly _anyone_ can pick up Wii sports and be playing and having fun. The cheesey families enjoying "waggle pets deluxe 6" that make the vomit rise in 'gamers' throats are the mainstream and they are the future of 'games' who will take gaming out of its ghetto and into the real world.


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## Kid_Eternity (Jun 2, 2009)

I love the idea of a Star Wars mmo on the 360, but will have to see how they work out the payment...


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## mwgdrwg (Jun 2, 2009)

Kid_Eternity said:


> I love the idea of a Star Wars mmo on the 360, but will have to see how they work out the payment...



Well I have played FFXI and Phantasy Star Universe, both cost about £8 a month which came straight off the credit card which is tied to your Live account.


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## Awesome Wells (Jun 2, 2009)

Kid_Eternity said:


> I love the idea of a Star Wars mmo on the 360, but will have to see how they work out the payment...


well you will have to pay twice. M$ aren't going to let people off paying live just because it's an MMO. I also doubt the 360 has the specs to handle a modern MMO without it being horrendously dilute.


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## Kid_Eternity (Jun 2, 2009)

mwgdrwg said:


> Well I have played FFXI and Phantasy Star Universe, both cost about £8 a month which came straight off the credit card which is tied to your Live account.



Fuck that I aint paying 8 quid a month!


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## revol68 (Jun 2, 2009)

Crispy said:


> Not in a gaming context, no.
> 
> You and I are 'gamers' - we know how to work complex modern games with intricate controls. Have you ever seen someone who's never played games before try and use mouse and keys, or a modern joypad? It's instant fail. They stagger in circles looking at teh floor, and look down at their hands to figure out where the red button is while getting shot to death. The very fact that there is a subculture of 'gamers' speaks volumes. The pastime as we know it is elitist by its very nature.
> 
> However, see how quickly _anyone_ can pick up Wii sports and be playing and having fun. The cheesey families enjoying "waggle pets deluxe 6" that make the vomit rise in 'gamers' throats are the mainstream and they are the future of 'games' who will take gaming out of its ghetto and into the real world.



oh wise up gaming with a joypad has been mainstream for years, to paint it ass otherwise is just nonsense. 

you might as well argue isn't mainstream because people who have never watched it before find it hard to follow.

For people of my age and younger I'd suggest playing video games is far more widespread than playing football.


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## Crispy (Jun 2, 2009)

It is so not mainstream. My mum and dad watch TV and movies, listen to music, go to the theatre. They do not play games. Barely any women I know play games as we know them. It's only recently that these sorts of people have started playing games, and they're not playing Call of Duty or Fallout 3 or Halo, they're playing singstar, wii sports and brain training. 'Hardcore' gaming is still strong and will be for ages yet, but the possibilities for interactive entertainment to reach _everyone_ have only just started to be explored.


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## Kid_Eternity (Jun 2, 2009)

What's your criteria for 'mainstream'? Games industry is worth the same if not more than the film industry. Virtually everyone I know has a console now, mainly the Wii, loads of people I know who would have never touched a console five or ten years ago love their DS' etc...ime it's mainstream now.


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## Wolveryeti (Jun 2, 2009)

I predict the next development will be a console that you can do MS Word on with a printer attachment.


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## revol68 (Jun 2, 2009)

Crispy said:


> It is so not mainstream. My mum and dad watch TV and movies, listen to music, go to the theatre. They do not play games. Barely any women I know play games as we know them. It's only recently that these sorts of people have started playing games, and they're not playing Call of Duty or Fallout 3 or Halo, they're playing singstar, wii sports and brain training. 'Hardcore' gaming is still strong and will be for ages yet, but the possibilities for interactive entertainment to reach _everyone_ have only just started to be explored.



So it's not mainstream for loads of old gits who will soon die and then the Wii model will be fucked cos all the new mums and dads will be playing decent games and not some vomit inducing carnie sideshow shite.

For anyone under 35, games are mainstream, maybe not with women but then again football has always been considered mainstream when there was next to no women following it.


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## Crispy (Jun 2, 2009)

Kid_Eternity said:


> What's your criteria for 'mainstream'? Games industry is worth the same if not more than the film industry.



It costs £8 to see a movie, but £40 to buy a game, and there's a thriving second hand market for them. I bet you more people see this month's no.1 movie than buy this month's no.1 game.


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## Crispy (Jun 2, 2009)

revol68 said:


> For anyone under 35, games are mainstream, maybe not with women but then again football has always been considered mainstream when there was next to no women following it.



So what is it about games that exclude women, exactly? Answering this question is exactly what nintendo said they wanted to answer when they first announced the wii


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## revol68 (Jun 2, 2009)

Crispy said:


> It costs £8 to see a movie, but £40 to buy a game, and there's a thriving second hand market for them. I bet you more people see this month's no.1 movie than buy this month's no.1 game.



yes but it's still mainstream, unless by mainstream you mean every cunt in the planet must have done it.


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## revol68 (Jun 2, 2009)

Crispy said:


> So what is it about games that exclude women, exactly? Answering this question is exactly what nintendo said they wanted to answer when they first announced the wii



Football was/is largely exlusionary to women but that is changing, thankfully they didn't go down the road of making football shite to hasten this.


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## Crispy (Jun 2, 2009)

*shrug* I guess you can have varying degrees of 'mainstreamness'
but still, I bet more people have seen star wars or titanic or james bond than have played sonic the hedgehog or civilization or doom


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## kained&able (Jun 2, 2009)

yeah to be honest cripsy i wouldn't be too shocked if more people have played on a console then kicked a football in this country.


dave


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## revol68 (Jun 2, 2009)

Crispy said:


> *shrug* I guess you can have varying degrees of 'mainstreamness'
> but still, I bet more people have seen star wars or titanic or james bond than have played sonic the hedgehog or civilization or doom



Hardly a shocking or illuminating fact. I'm sure more people have ate beans than sushi in this country, doesn''t mean sushi isn't mainstream.


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## Kid_Eternity (Jun 2, 2009)

Crispy said:


> It costs £8 to see a movie, but £40 to buy a game, and there's a thriving second hand market for them. I bet you more people see this month's no.1 movie than buy this month's no.1 game.



How many people play that game though? One ticket is one person, I buy a game and anywhere from 1 to 5 people can play it. 

The Wii has sold 50 million units out selling the non mainstream 360 by 20 million, isn't that an indication that games have gone mainstream?


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## Awesome Wells (Jun 2, 2009)

How could you do a game like Streetfighter through the Natall? Or CoD? I like the tactile interface of a controller; for one i don't actually have to physically jump in the air and do impossible kungfu moves like Ryu's hurricane kick, or even Sagat's regular muay thai moves. Can you say torn hamstring?


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## kyser_soze (Jun 2, 2009)

The Wii is an electronic toy in the broadest possible sense; while _all_ consoles come under this category, the Wii is a Connect 4 or Monopoly to the 360 and PS3 train sets - they're a product whole families enjoy playing with. The PS3 and 360 are both still 'purist' machines, with the 360 being probably the last trad games consoles, aimed at a gaming audience (PS3 is a media centre first - it takes RTIM and some digging to really start unlocking it's potential (e.g. video streaming over your home network), but it's a one box solution for private broadcasting, and has been sold as such.

Games are 'mainstream' in comparison with say 10 or even 5 years ago - but if you take 10 people, 5 Wii owners and 5 console gamers and stuff an FPS or something like Fallout in front of them and the Wii people will struggle on a skills level when it comes to using a joypad as Crispy points out above - they'll be looking at the floor and failing to shoot, not to mention get frustrated with FPS 'features' like not being able to walk through or jump/climb over things like fences, despite being the universal ultra warrior, or indeed when they fire a super weapon at a door and _nothing happens to it_.

There are substantial differences in the audiences - and control interfaces are a big part of that.

Crispy is also right about the money side of it - yes games make more, but the unit cost is wayl, way higher. If you look at _units_ shifted, rather than money, cinema trumps gaming in terms of ticket sales...I mean come on - the market for games in India vs the number of people who go see movies...


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## Dead Cat Bounce (Jun 2, 2009)

Awesome Wells said:


> How could you do a game like Streetfighter through the Natall? Or CoD? I like the tactile interface of a controller; for one i don't actually have to physically jump in the air and do impossible kungfu moves like Ryu's hurricane kick, or even Sagat's regular muay thai moves. Can you say torn hamstring?



Just watched the video on XBOX Live and thought the same thing. 

Playing Tekken on a Friday night after a few beers would be a recipe for disaster - trying a fancy move and ending up putting your foot through your rather expensive flat screen TV.

Looks good though.


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## Sunray (Jun 3, 2009)

Someone already been practising

http://failblog.org/2008/11/13/dance-fail/


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## dirtyfruit (Jun 3, 2009)

Sunray said:


> Someone already been practising
> 
> http://failblog.org/2008/11/13/dance-fail/


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## Sunray (Jun 3, 2009)

Sony's version of Natal is much better as is the demo

http://www.engadget.com/2009/06/02/sony-announces-new-ps3-motion-controller/


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## Awesome Wells (Jun 3, 2009)

It's like watching a cross between T4 at the Beach and Dragon's Den!


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## mwgdrwg (Jun 3, 2009)

Sunray said:


> Sony's version of Natal is much better as is the demo
> 
> http://www.engadget.com/2009/06/02/sony-announces-new-ps3-motion-controller/



Sony are a year behind Nintendo. They did one to one movement mapping with Wii Motion Plus at last year's E3. They're releasing it soon.

Don't expext to see Sony (or Microsoft's) waggle devices for at least a year.


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## GarfieldLeChat (Jun 3, 2009)

face recognition technology....  jesus wept...

thankfully although on the face of it the idea of normalising this tech in peoples homes is orwellian in the extreme however due to m$ known fail at implamentation we can but hope that rather than it converting millions to the 'it's so much easier why don't all things access our services like they do on the xbox',   but will put people off it as soon as the inveitable databse of peoples faces gets hacked and their profile shots are replaced by a goatsie.


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## tommers (Jun 3, 2009)

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/...ll-allow-everyone-to-be-tedious-200906021797/

ho ho.


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## internetstalker (Jun 3, 2009)

Awesome Wells said:


> i hate you.



everyone hates me!


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## tommers (Jun 3, 2009)

internetstalker said:


> everyone hates me!



I don't.





I loathe you.


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## jæd (Jun 3, 2009)

Crispy said:


> It is so not mainstream. My mum and dad watch TV and movies, listen to music, go to the theatre. They do not play games. Barely any women I know play games as we know them. It's only recently that these sorts of people have started playing games, and they're not playing Call of Duty or Fallout 3 or Halo, they're playing singstar, wii sports and brain training. 'Hardcore' gaming is still strong and will be for ages yet, but the possibilities for interactive entertainment to reach _everyone_ have only just started to be explored.



I'm seeing plenty of women on the Tube tip tapping at iPhone/Touch screens or carrying Pink DSLites. I think games that appeal to fe-males are very different to those that men (mostly) like. You just need to get developers (mostly men) to release them...


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## kyser_soze (Jun 3, 2009)

Yeah, they have virtual pets and that detective game thing or Dr Kawazama or whatever his name is.

Actually...does anyone have any articles/data on purchase/utility for the Wii?


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## Kid_Eternity (Jun 3, 2009)

Utility?


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## Crispy (Jun 3, 2009)

'how much it's used' I reckon


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## kyser_soze (Jun 3, 2009)

Yup - like buying a home gym; how long and regularly is it used at 3, 6 12 and 24 months. I'd be interested in seeing what those stats are for family use of the Wii...


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## Kid_Eternity (Jun 3, 2009)

Ah right, good question. Can't think of anything like that I've read...


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## Sunray (Jun 3, 2009)

kyser_soze said:


> Yup - like buying a home gym; how long and regularly is it used at 3, 6 12 and 24 months. I'd be interested in seeing what those stats are for family use of the Wii...



People bought it, stuck it by the TV, played Wii sports for a bit and then forgot about it.  When someone came round they wheeled it out for 10 minutes, the friends then thought it was a good idea to get one and did exactly the same.

The only really decent game for it is Zelda.


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## kyser_soze (Jun 3, 2009)

The thing is it's absolutely key knowledge to the argument of the Wii taking gaming mainstream. It's all very well if every family member is still using their Wii Fit or whatever after 12 months, but if the thing is only ever used by the kids (and drilling down further, by the males), then while there's been a surface change in the gaming audience, it's main audience is not only still it's traditional base, but it's also likely to remain that way, and that gaming is still viewed as some kind of novelty.

Obv this is going to vary from market to market - I would imagine who Japanese families live their lives around their Wiis and DSis...


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## jayeola (Jun 5, 2009)

Just seen this vid. Looks fun. Dunno if the ad is realistic.


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## jayeola (Jun 5, 2009)

This seems more plausable cos it's an actual live demo of the controller. A vid from the Sony team.


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## mwgdrwg (Jun 5, 2009)

jayeola said:


> This seems more plausable cos it's an actual live demo of the controller. A vid from the Sony team.




There was a live demo of Microsoft's Natal too...the girl playing 3D breakout with the balls.


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