# Was "meet the fockers" an anti-semitic film?



## frogwoman (Feb 10, 2010)

I remember watching it a few years ago and finding it both crude and extremely offensive. I'm perfectly aware that it was made by Jewish people but as I remember I wasn't the only one with a similar complaint ...


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## rover07 (Feb 10, 2010)

No, it was a comedy.


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## frogwoman (Feb 10, 2010)

Yeah, I know, but the two aren't mutually exclusive.


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## danny la rouge (Feb 10, 2010)

It was shite and unwatchable.  I couldn't bear it for very long.


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## Dillinger4 (Feb 10, 2010)

I think I can see your point, frogwoman, but could you elaborate?


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## frogwoman (Feb 10, 2010)

Sure. Basically, I disliked the fact that it seemed to have a lot of anti-semitic jokes which would probably go over many people's heads if they didn't know the subtext, and it seemed to be making out Jews to be like hyper-sensitive, with a very twisted attitude to sex, and rather decadent and shallow, all of which are classic anti-semitic stereotypes. Also back in my religious days I found the taking the piss out of Jewish rituals pretty offensive although maybe I'd find it less so now.


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## London_Calling (Feb 10, 2010)

Isn't this a bit  like asking whether The Producers is in bad taste . . . it's apparently all about who makes it. I never know if there is one answer.


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## rover07 (Feb 10, 2010)

But were there many Jewish jokes?

The main butt of the film was the uptight, repressed ex-FBI agent...and the free love hippies.


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## kabbes (Feb 10, 2010)

Any anti-semitism went completely over my head, I have to say.  And I'm, like, ubersensitive and boring about bigotry.  But I don't even remember the characters being Jewish, let alone there being any plot points or jokes that relied on them being Jewish.

Heh.  Gaylord Fokker.


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## kained&able (Feb 10, 2010)

no, it is shite though.


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## frogwoman (Feb 10, 2010)

So we shouldn't discuss whether anything in arts/literature has artistic merit or has dodgy undertones then? For what it's worth I'm not one of these people who finds anti-semitism in everything, but I did think that this film was, and I also found it tasteless and unfunny.


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## Dillinger4 (Feb 10, 2010)

rover07 said:


> But were there many Jewish jokes?
> 
> The main butt of the film was the uptight, repressed ex-FBI agent...and the free love hippies.



I think frogwomans point is that the fokkers _are_ the jew joke.


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## rover07 (Feb 10, 2010)

Can you give an example Frogwoman, i dont remember any.


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## Santino (Feb 10, 2010)

frogwoman said:


> So we shouldn't discuss whether anything in arts/literature has artistic merit or has dodgy undertones then?


That is what everyone's saying.


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## kabbes (Feb 10, 2010)

Dillinger4 said:


> I think frogwomans point is that the fokkers _are_ the jew joke.


I'm confused -- weren't the Fokkers the free-love hippies?  I thought frogwoman was saying that it was the other lot that were Jewish?


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## Citizen66 (Feb 10, 2010)

When Borat sang "kill a Jew" was Sacha Cohen being anti-semitic or prejudiced towards attitudes Muslim nations?


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## Reno (Feb 10, 2010)

I think it's no more anti-semitic than many Woody Allen and Neil Simon films or the Coen Brothers recent A Serious Man, though as a film it's inferior to any of their work. There must be more Jewish comedians than from any other ethnic or religious group and they do draw on their heritage a lot, don't they ?


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## Dillinger4 (Feb 10, 2010)

kabbes said:


> I'm confused -- weren't the Fokkers the free-love hippies?  I thought frogwoman was saying that it was the other lot that were Jewish?



No, she is saying that the free love hippies are a stereotype:



> and it seemed to be making out Jews to be like hyper-sensitive, with a very twisted attitude to sex, and rather decadent and shallow, all of which are classic anti-semitic stereotypes.


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## London_Calling (Feb 10, 2010)

Fwiw, I do believe Hollywood in particular and the USA in general has very different sensitivities with regard Jewish culture to the UK, which in turn has quite different sensitivities to France. And then there's Germany. You're not going to get anywhere without taking that into account, and from there  . .  why bother anyway. IMO. Jews make films with Jewish theme. Fine with me.


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## kabbes (Feb 10, 2010)

Were the Fokkers hyper-sensitive then?

Is there a Jewish people free-love stereotype?


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## stupid dogbot (Feb 10, 2010)

I've never heard that complaint before, but it wouldn't surprise me. Some people are massively oversensitive.

It was pretty shit, though, if that's any help.


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## invisibleplanet (Feb 10, 2010)

No, it' not antisemitic - it showed cultural Jews and their liberated/liberating attitudes towards human relationships. It  contrasted these liberated types (obv. hippies, pro-civil rights movement back in the day) with a stiff-necked christian CIA man (arch-enemy of liberal pro-civil rights types) by having their kids fall in love. 

It was a comedy too, so if the Fockers offended you, then best stay away from Scottish (Jewish) comedian Jerry Sadowitz.


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## frogwoman (Feb 10, 2010)

No, read my post again. We get a bunch of straight laced slightly paranoid American christians meeting this family who are completely obsessed with sex and never stop going on about it, and are really pretty gross, completely overprotective of their kid, obsessed with money and have too much of it so they can live their sex obsessed decadent lifestlye, dislike traditional values (or anyone having any form of privacy/boundaries whatsoever). And are extremely sensitive to anything they might think of as anti-semitism (note one point in the film when the american christian dad goes - "you people" and everyone looks around shocked) 

all of which are classic anti-semitic stereotypes, and pretty offensive really


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## Santino (Feb 10, 2010)

invisibleplanet said:


> then best stay away from Scottish (Jewish) comedian Jerry Sadowitz.



I understand this is good advice in general, and he should only be viewed through the safety of a remote viewing device like a telly.


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## invisibleplanet (Feb 10, 2010)

Citizen66 said:


> When Borat sang "kill a Jew" was Sacha Cohen being anti-semitic or prejudiced towards attitudes Muslim nations?



He was taking the piss out of institutionalised antisemitism of former Soviet countries and also the antisemitism of Xtian fundamentalist 'deep south' Americans.


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## frogwoman (Feb 10, 2010)

Citizen66 said:


> When Borat sang "kill a Jew" was Sacha Cohen being anti-semitic or prejudiced towards attitudes Muslim nations?



No he was just being a cunt. 


I'm not somebody who's over-sensitive and sees anti-semitism in everything, but I do remember being particularly offended by this film when it came out so I just wanted to see whether I was on the right track or if other people thought the way that I did.


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## Dillinger4 (Feb 10, 2010)

frogwoman said:


> No he was just being a cunt.
> 
> 
> I'm not somebody who's over-sensitive and sees anti-semitism in everything, but I do remember being particularly offended by this film when it came out so I just wanted to see whether I was on the right track or if other people thought the way that I did.



I can see it, frogwoman.


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## Citizen66 (Feb 10, 2010)

Where is Jerry Sadowitz nowadays? 

Last I heard he was selling amateur magic kits on eBay.


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## stupid dogbot (Feb 10, 2010)

frogwoman said:


> and pretty offensive really



If you're _looking_ for stuff to be offended by, I'm sure you could find much, much worse in the real world...


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## kained&able (Feb 10, 2010)

kabbes said:


> Were the Fokkers hyper-sensitive then?
> 
> Is there a Jewish people free-love stereotype?



Innit! I remember lawyer hippy dude not flsuhing toilet and being proud of his sons mediocre achievements.

Which doesn't strike he as gyper senstive, in fact de niros character was the sensitive one.

Also wasn't the mum some sort of sex therapist, completely the opposite of the normal jew sex stereotype,which tends to be quite prudish no sex before marriage and all about the money the bloke can offer the women etc.

I really don't get this thread. 


dave


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## kabbes (Feb 10, 2010)

frogwoman said:


> No, read my post again. We get a bunch of straight laced slightly paranoid American christians meeting this family who are completely obsessed with sex and never stop going on about it, and are really pretty gross, completely overprotective of their kid, obsessed with money and have too much of it so they can live their sex obsessed decadent lifestlye, dislike traditional values (or anyone having any form of privacy/boundaries whatsoever). And are extremely sensitive to anything they might think of as anti-semitism (note one point in the film when the american christian dad goes - "you people" and everyone looks around shocked)
> 
> all of which are classic anti-semitic stereotypes, and pretty offensive really


Don't be ridiculous.  Would they *really* cast Barbara Streisand in the role of a *Jewish* woman?  That's unpossible!


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## Dillinger4 (Feb 10, 2010)

kained&able said:


> Also wasn't the mum some sort of sex therapist, completely the opposite of the normal jew sex stereotype,which tends to be quite prudish no sex before marriage and all about the money the bloke can offer the women etc.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



A Jewish therapist? That's a new one for me.


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## invisibleplanet (Feb 10, 2010)

kabbes said:


> Were the Fokkers hyper-sensitive then?


They were great - embarrassing, but they knew how to love each other 


> Is there a Jewish people free-love stereotype?


Yeah, Sadken *giggles*


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## Orang Utan (Feb 10, 2010)

i didn't even know that it was jewish? how is it jewish? is it written by jewish people? are all or just some of the actors jewish?


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## Boppity (Feb 10, 2010)

I didn't find it offensive. It's healthy to be able to poke fun at yourself, and the Fockers still came off likeable. It's different when you're supposed to be in on the joke.


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## kained&able (Feb 10, 2010)

SEX therapist, not shrink.

dave


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## invisibleplanet (Feb 10, 2010)

Dillinger4 said:


> A Jewish therapist? That's a new one for me.



Dr. Ruth


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## Dillinger4 (Feb 10, 2010)

FWIW, I can see Frogwomans point, and I did find it offensive, more in a shit-attempt-at-bad-taste-shit-film kind of way.


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## Dillinger4 (Feb 10, 2010)

kained&able said:


> SEX therapist, not shrink.
> 
> dave



So? It is the same stereotype with a new twist. 

She might be a sex therapist, but she is still a therapist


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## Citizen66 (Feb 10, 2010)

I haven't watched it. I'm surprised it has such an appeal to folk on here tbh.


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## Santino (Feb 10, 2010)

Citizen66 said:


> Where is Jerry Sadowitz nowadays?
> 
> Last I heard he was selling amateur magic kits on eBay.



Playing in London at the moment, or very soon.


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## frogwoman (Feb 10, 2010)

Orang Utan said:


> i didn't even know that it was jewish? how is it jewish? is it written by jewish people? are all or just some of the actors jewish?



It's about paranoid american christians meeting a sex obsessed jewish family. 


im surprised that people didn't realise that the film had jewish characters in? the ceremonies at the end, the references to judaism and cultural stuff in the film? or maybe it was just me? 


and dave - that is one jewish stereotype, but there's another stereotype of the liberal free-love jew that just wants to push their style of permissiveness down everyones throats and is completely intolerant that anyone might be a little disgusted by it ...


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## Orang Utan (Feb 10, 2010)

i thought that was just hippy crap


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## stupid dogbot (Feb 10, 2010)

Dillinger4 said:


> FWIW, I can see Frogwomans point, and I did find it offensive, more in a shit-attempt-at-bad-taste-shit-film kind of way.



Indeed. I was offended as a movie goer, but not as a jewish person.


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## Dillinger4 (Feb 10, 2010)

I think the fokkers were pretty obviously Jewish.


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## kabbes (Feb 10, 2010)

Orang Utan said:


> i thought that was just hippy crap


We just don't see religion, OU.  We are religion-blind.


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## Orang Utan (Feb 10, 2010)

they're all _american_ stereotypes to me.


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## frogwoman (Feb 10, 2010)

stupid dogbot said:


> If you're _looking_ for stuff to be offended by, I'm sure you could find much, much worse in the real world...



I'm not looking for anything to be offended by, but I was thinking last night about portrayals of jewish people in film/media after watching the reader, and this film was one of the ones that came to mind. I saw it when I was 17 or so. If I had thought I was going to be offended by watching the film I wouldn't have watched it


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## rover07 (Feb 10, 2010)

Dillinger4 said:


> So? It is the same stereotype with a new twist.
> 
> She might be a sex therapist, but she is still a therapist



 The main point of her being a therapist is to treat De Niros character.


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## kained&able (Feb 10, 2010)

Dillinger4 said:


> So? It is the same stereotype with a new twist.
> 
> She might be a sex therapist, but she is still a therapist



Yeah but surely the fact that she is a sexually liberated jew is breaking as many stereotypes(if not more) then the fact she is a therapist is enforcing.

Froggy i never come across that stereotype before, Can you cite any other examples form popular culture?

dave


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## frogwoman (Feb 10, 2010)

Orang Utan said:


> they're all _american_ stereotypes to me.



New Yorkers though. And ...


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## Dillinger4 (Feb 10, 2010)

kained&able said:


> Yeah but surely the fact that she is a sexually liberated jew is breaking as many stereotypes(if not more) then the fact she is a therapist is enforcing.
> 
> Froggy i never come across that stereotype before, Can you cite any other examples form popular culture?
> 
> dave



frogwoman said this:



frogwoman said:


> It's about paranoid american christians meeting a sex obsessed jewish family.
> 
> and dave - that is one jewish stereotype, but there's another stereotype of the liberal free-love jew that just wants to push their style of permissiveness down everyones throats and is completely intolerant that anyone might be a little disgusted by it ...



I am surprised people are not really aware of this stereotype.


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## Orang Utan (Feb 10, 2010)

kained&able said:


> Yeah but surely the fact that she is a sexually liberated jew is breaking as many stereotypes(if not more) then the fact she is a therapist is enforcing.
> 
> Froggy i never come across that stereotype before, Can you cite any other examples form popular culture?
> 
> dave


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## frogwoman (Feb 10, 2010)

kained&able said:


> Yeah but surely the fact that she is a sexually liberated jew is breaking as many stereotypes(if not more) then the fact she is a therapist is enforcing.
> 
> Froggy i never come across that stereotype before, Can you cite any other examples form popular culture?
> 
> dave



It's been an anti-semitic staple for about the last 100 years; the stereotype of the pretentious, decadent, bohemian hippy Jew who wants to practice free love/take loads of drugs and feels they are above/different to the values of religion/god/straight laced "gentile" society etc. 

Not to break Godwins Law on a thread about comedy (ffs) but think Vienna ...


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## kabbes (Feb 10, 2010)

If the Fockers hadn't been Jewish then it would have been an *identical film with identical jokes*.


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## kabbes (Feb 10, 2010)

frogwoman said:


> It's been an anti-semitic staple for about the last 100 years; the stereotype of the pretentious, decadent, bohemian hippy Jew who wants to practice free love/take loads of drugs and feels they are above/different to the values of religion/god/straight laced "gentile" society etc.



Srs, I have never heard of that stereotype before.


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## invisibleplanet (Feb 10, 2010)

frogwoman said:


> No, read my post again. We get a bunch of straight laced slightly paranoid American christians meeting this family who are completely obsessed with sex and never stop going on about it, and are really pretty gross, completely overprotective of their kid, obsessed with money and have too much of it so they can live their sex obsessed decadent lifestlye, dislike traditional values (or anyone having any form of privacy/boundaries whatsoever). And are extremely sensitive to anything they might think of as anti-semitism (note one point in the film when the american christian dad goes - "you people" and everyone looks around shocked)
> 
> all of which are classic anti-semitic stereotypes, and pretty offensive really



The american xtian dad shows a classic McCarthy-inspired 50s/60s American antisemitism. When he says 'you people', he's exposing his own antisemitism. Just link back to those bad old days when it was a crime against America to be a trades union member, a commie, a pinko or a Jew.  


I really don't think you've found your sense of humour here and it's you who is being hyper-sensitive. If you can't find it funny that these two American stereotypes of Jewish civil-liberties hippies meet McCarthyist C-I-A man because their kids fell in love and trounced the previous generations ideas of conservatism and permissiveness, then don't listen to The FUGS (who wrote a great song in the swinging-sixties about the C-I-A man).


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## frogwoman (Feb 10, 2010)

Dillinger4 said:


> I think the fokkers were pretty obviously Jewish.



Especially the fact that jewish ceremonies were carried out during the film (the wine blessing etc in hebrew).


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## Dillinger4 (Feb 10, 2010)

frogwoman said:


> Especially the fact that jewish ceremonies were carried out during the film (the wine blessing etc in hebrew).



I know, how could you miss it?


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## invisibleplanet (Feb 10, 2010)

Orang Utan said:


> they're all _american_ stereotypes to me.



They ARE American stereotypes.


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## Orang Utan (Feb 10, 2010)

frogwoman said:


> It's been an anti-semitic staple for about the last 100 years; the stereotype of the pretentious, decadent, bohemian hippy Jew who wants to practice free love/take loads of drugs and feels they are above/different to the values of religion/god/straight laced "gentile" society etc.
> 
> Not to break Godwins Law on a thread about comedy (ffs) but think Vienna ...



hmm, but doesn't that same stereotype apply to gentiles too?
decadent hippies weren't all jewish


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## frogwoman (Feb 10, 2010)

kabbes said:


> If the Fockers hadn't been Jewish then it would have been an *identical film with identical jokes*.



No it wouldn't.


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## kained&able (Feb 10, 2010)

frogwoman said:


> It's been an anti-semitic staple for about the last 100 years; the stereotype of the pretentious, decadent, bohemian hippy Jew who wants to practice free love/take loads of drugs and feels they are above/different to the values of religion/god/straight laced "gentile" society etc.
> 
> Not to break Godwins Law on a thread about comedy (ffs) but think Vienna ...



Vienna?

OU a good point but i thought a lot of sarah silvermans appeal was that she was very different and out there for a jewish women?


dave


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## frogwoman (Feb 10, 2010)

Orang Utan said:


> hmm, but doesn't that the same stereotype applie to gentiles too?
> decadent hippies weren't all jewish



Maybe so, but there is a particular stereotype about Jews and bohemian decadence dating back at least 100 years and I can't believe that people aren't aware of it...


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## kabbes (Feb 10, 2010)

Dillinger4 said:


> I know, how could you miss it?



The details of the ceremony were totally irrelevant.  I wouldn't have been able to tell you five minutes after the film ended what they were.

Srs, Jewish people are just people.  Why can't you have someone being Jewish without it being about the fact that they are Jewish?  If it had been a Christian ceremony, should I have made special notice of that too?


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## frogwoman (Feb 10, 2010)

kained&able said:


> Vienna?
> 
> OU a good point but i thought a lot of sarah silvermans appeal was that she was very different and out there for a jewish women?
> 
> ...



1920s vienna in the cafes etc.


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## kabbes (Feb 10, 2010)

frogwoman said:


> No it wouldn't.



What would have been different about it?  If they had been atheist, say.


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## frogwoman (Feb 10, 2010)

kabbes said:


> The details of the ceremony were totally irrelevant.  I wouldn't have been able to tell you five minutes after the film ended what they were.
> 
> Srs, Jewish people are just people.  Why can't you have someone being Jewish without it being about the fact that they are Jewish?  If it had been a Christian ceremony, should I have made special notice of that too?



It was about the fact that they are jewish, thats the whole point.


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## stupid dogbot (Feb 10, 2010)

frogwoman said:


> I'm not looking for anything to be offended by, but I was thinking last night about portrayals of jewish people in film/media after watching the reader, and this film was one of the ones that came to mind. I saw it when I was 17 or so. If I had thought I was going to be offended by watching the film I wouldn't have watched it



Didn't mean you _personally_. Just refuse to write "one" in that context.

Point remains. It should always possible to laugh at these things, imo.


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## kabbes (Feb 10, 2010)

frogwoman said:


> 1920s vienna in the cafes etc.



wut


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## Dillinger4 (Feb 10, 2010)

kabbes said:


> The details of the ceremony were totally irrelevant.  I wouldn't have been able to tell you five minutes after the film ended what they were.
> 
> Srs, Jewish people are just people.  Why can't you have someone being Jewish without it being about the fact that they are Jewish?  If it had been a Christian ceremony, should I have made special notice of that too?



The ceremony is not even that important, the film played up on Jewish stereotypes right from the start. 

In fact, even the first film is full of it, except centered solely on the Ben Stiller character, a a stereotypically Jewish man trying to find acceptance in a WASP-ish world - WITH HILARIOUS RESULTS


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## frogwoman (Feb 10, 2010)

think about what i said


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## Orang Utan (Feb 10, 2010)

it's not that they aren't aware of it, but they didn't think of it when watching the film. perhaps such a stereotype has become more generalised rather than specific.  i think many people are unaware of jewish stereotypes as they just think of them as american, being ignorant of jewish culture.


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## frogwoman (Feb 10, 2010)

frogwoman said:
			
		

> 1920s vienna in the cafes etc





kabbes said:


> wut



think about it


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## Dirty Martini (Feb 10, 2010)

frogwoman said:


> It's been an anti-semitic staple for about the last 100 years; the stereotype of the pretentious, decadent, bohemian hippy Jew who wants to practice free love/take loads of drugs and feels they are above/different to the values of religion/god/straight laced "gentile" society etc.



The idea of Jewish decadence, for sure. Corrupting Gentile society through ownership of the media and nightclubs, dominance of Hollywood, writing risque books -- that was a staple of antisemitic propaganda in the 20th century. Weimar decadence was, for the Nazis, driven by Jewish interests.

Not sure whether that's a reference point for this film though.


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## Dillinger4 (Feb 10, 2010)

Orang Utan said:


> it's not that they aren't aware of it, but they didn't think of it when watching the film. perhaps such a stereotype has become more generalised rather than specific.  i think many people are unaware of jewish stereotypes as they just think of them as american, being ignorant of jewish culture.



I am no expert on Jewish culture, but I thought it was pretty obvious myself


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## Boppity (Feb 10, 2010)

Sure you can argue that it played up to stereotypes, but that doesn't always have to been offensive. Sometimes it's just amusing. 

Now, if the Fockers had been ruthless money lenders or something equally ridiculous, then I can see why someone would be offended by it.


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## frogwoman (Feb 10, 2010)

Dillinger4 said:


> The ceremony is not even that important, the film played up on Jewish stereotypes right from the start.
> 
> In fact, even the first film is full of it, except centered solely on the Ben Stiller character, a a stereotypically Jewish man trying to find acceptance in a WASP-ish world - WITH HILARIOUS RESULTS



Except that the first film was at least funny


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## kabbes (Feb 10, 2010)

Dillinger4 said:


> The ceremony is not even that important, the film played up on Jewish stereotypes right from the start.
> 
> In fact, even the first film is full of it, except centered solely on the Ben Stiller character, a a stereotypically Jewish man trying to find acceptance in a WASP-ish world - WITH HILARIOUS RESULTS


I never saw the first one, so I am judging the second one entirely on its own merits.


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## Boppity (Feb 10, 2010)

frogwoman said:


> Except that the first film was at least funny



Despite the fact that it played up to WASP-stereotypes?


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## frogwoman (Feb 10, 2010)

Bippitybop said:


> Sure you can argue that it played up to stereotypes, but that doesn't always have to been offensive. Sometimes it's just amusing.
> 
> Now, if the Fockers had been ruthless money lenders or something equally ridiculous, then I can see why someone would be offended by it.



does something have to be completely un-subtle and obvious to be offensive?


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## tarannau (Feb 10, 2010)

Stereotypes in a hollywood comedy, whatever next eh?

The characters came across fondly and were likeable. This seems a strange film to pick up on.


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## kabbes (Feb 10, 2010)

frogwoman said:


> It was about the fact that they are jewish, thats the whole point.



I didn't even notice the fact that they were Jewish and yet I thought the film was OK for what it was.  I don't think it would have made a single solitary difference to me if I had had their Jewishness pointed out to me.


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## Boppity (Feb 10, 2010)

frogwoman said:


> does something have to be completely un-subtle and obvious to be offensive?



It wasn't offensive because it wasn't 'anti-Jewish' it was just mild fun-poking. Harmless. No one would walk away from that movie thinking poorly of Jewish people because of it.


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## Citizen66 (Feb 10, 2010)

frogwoman said:


> I'm not looking for anything to be offended by, but I was thinking last night about portrayals of jewish people in film/media after watching the reader, and this film was one of the ones that came to mind. I saw it when I was 17 or so. If I had thought I was going to be offended by watching the film I wouldn't have watched it



I don't think Jews can be having a rough ride in Hollywood considering Jews pretty much run the show.


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## frogwoman (Feb 10, 2010)

Bippitybop said:


> Despite the fact that it played up to WASP-stereotypes?



The first film depicted a conservative and very paranoid religious family and to be honest I didn't think about what race they were when watching the film (maybe that says more about our/american culture though). 

I don't mind people making fun of jews/whatever as long as it is funny and this film wasn't funny at all, it was just tasteless and played upon anti-semitism of the worst kind, made for mass consumption in the assumption that people wouldn't notice

fwiw I don't think they set out to make an anti-semitic film but I think that's what the end result was


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## Dillinger4 (Feb 10, 2010)

frogwoman said:


> Except that the first film was at least funny



Well, I disagree.

The Ben Stiller character in the first film is a lot more sympathetic than the grotesque way his parents are portrayed, but there are still a lot of very obvious stereotypes in his character as well. 

Is it stereotyping itself you are against, or a grotesque use of stereotyping?


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## frogwoman (Feb 10, 2010)

Citizen66 said:


> I don't think Jews can be having a rough ride in Hollywood considering Jews pretty much run the show.



 

I'm not complaining, just pointing out what i don;t like about the film, and there you go...you just proved my point   

kabbes et al, do you get it now?


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## rover07 (Feb 10, 2010)

frogwoman said:


> It was about the fact that they are jewish, thats the whole point.



No, the film was about the clash between Robert De Niro and his 'circle of trust' and the sixties free-love hippies.

The fact that they were Jewish and he was Christian is secondary.


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## tarannau (Feb 10, 2010)

Oh please, the last sentence of that post is ridiculous.

I found it funny and judging by the box office, reviews and sequel, plenty of others did too, including some Jewish people I expect.

This seems a bizarre crusade not linked to reality or other productions. Is Larry David's character in CurbYE more of a jerk and a slur on jews for example?


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## invisibleplanet (Feb 10, 2010)

You're being too sensitive, and also you aren't taking into account the history of Jewish activism in the civil rights movement in America. Jews were murdered ffs. http://rac.org/advocacy/issues/issuecr/

Today, when US patriot groups fire their propaganda guns at the ACLU, there's an undercurrent of antisemitism that IS worthy of comment.


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## Dirty Martini (Feb 10, 2010)

frogwoman said:


> kabbes et al, do you get it now?



What, cos of Citizen 66's boneheaded comment?


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## frogwoman (Feb 10, 2010)

Dillinger4 said:


> Well, I disagree.
> 
> The Ben Stiller character in the first film is a lot more sympathetic than the grotesque way his parents are portrayed, but there are still a lot of very obvious stereotypes in his character as well.
> 
> Is it stereotyping itself you are against, or a grotesque use of stereotyping?



Maybe if I watched the film again I'd agree wiht you, but i was 14 or so when I watched it and so a lot of the stereotypes etc probably just went over my head. 

I'm not necessarily against anything in humour but i'm just pointing out what I didn't like about the film ...


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## tarannau (Feb 10, 2010)

No, you're not just 'pointing out' anything. Your alleging a heavy racial element and blatantly, flatly claiming that the film is 'not funny at all'

It's gone a bit Whitehouse to be honest


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## frogwoman (Feb 10, 2010)

tarannau said:


> Oh please, the last sentence of that post is ridiculous.
> 
> I found it funny and judging by the box office, reviews and sequel, plenty of others did too, including some Jewish people I expect.
> 
> This seems a bizarre crusade not linked to reality or other productions. Is Larry David's character in CurbYE more of a jerk and a slur on jews for example?



not watched it, so I cant really comment, but from a description of the humour ...umm, no. Who says it's a crusade anyway, does not liking something and wanting to have a discussion about it have to be a crusade?


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## kabbes (Feb 10, 2010)

frogwoman said:


> I'm not complaining, just pointing out what i don;t like about the film, and there you go...you just proved my point
> 
> kabbes et al, do you get it now?


I am trying to get it, really I am.  I am always sympathetic to people pointing out subtle bigotry, because that's the most insidious kind.

The reason I am struggling in this case is because you are saying it is using stereotypes that I have never even heard of before, plus the jokes are all _exactly the same_ if you just suppose a bog-standard free-love hippie family who _aren't_ Jewish.  To the extent that I didn't even notice that they were Jewish at the time of the film!  (Any ceremony would have been right at the end, after all).  

There are prejudices and assumptions embedded into all layers of our society, for sure.  And Hollywood films are particularly full of them.  But I just can't see that this is any more egregious in its prejudices and assumptions than any other Hollywood film.


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## frogwoman (Feb 10, 2010)

invisibleplanet said:


> You're being too sensitive, and also you aren't taking into account the history of Jewish activism in the civil rights movement in America. Jews were murdered ffs. http://rac.org/advocacy/issues/issuecr/
> 
> Today, when US patriot groups fire their propaganda guns at the ACLU, there's an undercurrent of antisemitism that IS worthy of comment.



I know. That's the point. 

The liberal middle class decadent Jew wanting to undermine traditional values (assuming all the time that those traditional values are good and more "sensible") - imo the WASP family came across pretty normally in the latest film, whereas in the first one the joke was pretty much on them


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## Dillinger4 (Feb 10, 2010)

kabbes said:


> I am trying to get it, really I am.  I am always sympathetic to people pointing out subtle bigotry, because that's the most insidious kind.
> 
> The reason I am struggling in this case is because you are saying it is using stereotypes that I have never even heard of before, plus the jokes are all _exactly the same_ if you just suppose a bog-standard free-love hippie family who _aren't_ Jewish.  To the extent that I didn't even notice that they were Jewish at the time of the film!  (Any ceremony would have been right at the end, after all).
> 
> There are prejudices and assumptions embedded into all layers of our society, for sure.  And Hollywood films are particularly full of them.  But I just can't see that this is any more egregious in its prejudices and assumptions than any other Hollywood film.



But the fact is that they _are_ Jewish.


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## kabbes (Feb 10, 2010)

Dillinger4 said:


> But the fact is that they _are_ Jewish.


Surely it's a good thing to include characters from all ethnic backgrounds?  Particularly if their background is irrelevant to the plot and the jokes?  Which brings me back to my ground that their Jewishness is irrelevant to the plot and the jokes.


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## butchersapron (Feb 10, 2010)

kabbes said:


> Surely it's a good thing to include characters from all ethnic backgrounds?  ....



Why?


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## Citizen66 (Feb 10, 2010)

frogwoman said:


> I'm not complaining, just pointing out what i don;t like about the film, and there you go...you just proved my point
> 
> kabbes et al, do you get it now?



What do you mean I proved your point? Have you checked the credits on blockbusters lately? coen brothers, speilberg...


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## kabbes (Feb 10, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> Why?



Normalisation of the idea that cultural background is irrelevant to being able to have satisfying personal interaction


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## frogwoman (Feb 10, 2010)

the coen brothers aren't jewish 

Think about why some people might dislike the idea that "jews run hollywood" and the sort of complaints that such people may have -
as well as the sort of jews that are "running hollywood" 


then think about the film again


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## butchersapron (Feb 10, 2010)

kabbes said:


> Normalisation of the idea that cultural background is irrelevant to being able to have satisfying personal interaction



You surely mean the _ability_ or will to do that being good rather than what you actually said, which was a bit different...


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## frogwoman (Feb 10, 2010)

If you've heard of the idea that jews run hollywood the chances are you have heard of what I'm talking about before.


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## kabbes (Feb 10, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> You surely mean the _ability_ or will to do that being good rather than what you actually said, which was a bit different...



Fair point.  But the ability to include people of different cultural backgrounds without it being a plot point is irrelevant unless people actually _do_ it.  So seeing it is good, in that it is evidence for the ability.

Froggy and Dilly, I think you are in danger of requiring a situation in which people of Jewish or any other non-WASP background are only allowed to be in a film if (a) they are, basically, perfect and (b) have no recognisable cultural artefacts in their persona.  But the first guarantees their non-appearance, whilst the second renders them meaningless, because you might as well just have another WASP.


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## Orang Utan (Feb 10, 2010)

frogwoman said:


> the coen brothers aren't jewish


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## kabbes (Feb 10, 2010)

frogwoman said:


> If you've heard of the idea that jews run hollywood the chances are you have heard of what I'm talking about before.



Nobody is denying the existence of anti-semitism.  We are discussing the presence of anti-semitism in this specific film.


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## butchersapron (Feb 10, 2010)

Orang Utan said:


>



They're quite jewish.


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## frogwoman (Feb 10, 2010)

No that's not what I said ffs. I don't find cultural stereotyping for humourous purposes in itself offensive. I'm not particularly sensitive about anti-semitism (i'm an anti-zionist and I make jewish jokes all the time ffs) but I found aspects of this film very objectionable.


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## Citizen66 (Feb 10, 2010)

frogwoman said:


> the coen brothers aren't jewish
> 
> Think about why some people might dislike the idea that "jews run hollywood" and the sort of complaints that such people may have -
> as well as the sort of jews that are "running hollywood"
> ...



I'm not saying the mainstream American entertainment industry is a Jewish conspiracy. But there's some big players who are Jewish. Didn't realise the coen brothers aren't their name made me think they were.


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## frogwoman (Feb 10, 2010)

Orang Utan said:


>



I thought that they were Irish but they have a Jewish sounding surname.


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## invisibleplanet (Feb 10, 2010)

frogwoman said:


> the coen brothers aren't jewish


Yes they are


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## kabbes (Feb 10, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> They're quite jewish.



They only believe in the first half of the Torah.  Genesis and Exodus are fine, but anything after Leviticus 14 gets short shrift.


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## Orang Utan (Feb 10, 2010)

frogwoman said:


> I thought that they were Irish but they have a Jewish sounding surname.



watch their last film, a serious man, and tell me they're not jewish. even i noticed. perhaps kabbes would too.


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## frogwoman (Feb 10, 2010)

kabbes said:


> Nobody is denying the existence of anti-semitism.  We are discussing the presence of anti-semitism in this specific film.



arrrgh. 

Think about the idea that jews run hollywood. Why would some people (conservative, christian, etc) have a problem with the idea that jews run hollywood, what is the problem, what sort of films are being produced? 

Think about the stereotypes that I have mentioned. The "jews running hollywood" stereotype is basically the same ("jewish immorality") as the major and grotesque one in this film ...


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## frogwoman (Feb 10, 2010)

oh well, maybe i'm wrong, but I always heard that they weren't jewish?


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## butchersapron (Feb 10, 2010)

They even make some jokes about 'jews running hollywood' in the hudsucker proxy iirc


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## invisibleplanet (Feb 10, 2010)

frogwoman said:


> No that's not what I said ffs. I don't find cultural stereotyping for humourous purposes in itself offensive. I'm not particularly sensitive about anti-semitism (i'm an anti-zionist and I make jewish jokes all the time ffs) but I found aspects of this film very objectionable.



If you found aspects of the film objectionable, it's because you don't know enough about the specific historical aspects of American institutionalised antisemitism to get the references that are made in the film about said US-style institutional antisemitism.


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## DotCommunist (Feb 10, 2010)

I just thought it was a bit shit really, didn't notice any jew bashing.


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## kabbes (Feb 10, 2010)

Funnily enough, I've always been quite surrounded by Jewish culture and Jewish people, owing to going to a school that had the Barnet/Whetstone/Enfield kind of zone as a catchment area.  So "some of my best friends", and all that.  In my first few years of work, I bought a house with Jewish friend, so I even experienced the culture first-hand.  As a result I'm probably more atuned to Jewishness than the vast majority of WASPs (not that I'm a WASP, but still).  

So it's not that I don't pick up on Jewish stereotypes per se, more that the apparent stereotypes in this film utterly passed me by.  Maybe because they are American rather than British.


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## frogwoman (Feb 10, 2010)

IP[/quote said:
			
		

> If you found aspects of the film objectionable...



I do know about US institutionalised anti-semitism thanks, did you read my reply to you?


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## DexterTCN (Feb 10, 2010)

frogwoman said:


> Maybe so, but there is a particular stereotype about Jews and bohemian decadence dating back at least 100 years and I can't believe that people aren't aware of it...


Well I'm not aware of it and I'm reasonably aware of things.

The point of the fokkers film (and it was a very bad film) was the contrast between the two families and that the contrasts were used for humour.  Badly.

Didn't they all gang up and kill muslims at the end, anyway?  (Sorry, that's irony not comedy)

More worryingly...there is a 3rd one hanging about.  http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0290002/news#ni1497855

Any jewish jokes in it must be in-jokes as I didn't notice them (apart from some foreign language phrases I didn't understand but assumed were jewish)


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## kabbes (Feb 10, 2010)

frogwoman said:


> I do know about US institutionalised anti-semitism thanks, did you read my reply to you?


It would probably be a good idea to quote who you are talking to, because I am getting confused!


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## frogwoman (Feb 10, 2010)

kabbes said:


> It would probably be a good idea to quote who you are talking to, because I am getting confused!



my apologies, it's edited now xx


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## Spion (Feb 10, 2010)

frogwoman said:


> it seemed to be making out Jews to be like hyper-sensitive, with a very twisted attitude to sex, and rather decadent and shallow, all of which are classic anti-semitic stereotypes.


Eh?  The Fokkers had a healthy, un-repressed attitude to sex and their lives were full of love. I can imagine over-sensitive, patriotic WASPs being offended by MtFs but not jews


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## frogwoman (Feb 10, 2010)

that's one way of looking at it i suppose ...


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## invisibleplanet (Feb 10, 2010)

At age 17, when you watched the film 'Meet the Fokkers' you must have seen their attitude to sex as 'twisted, decadent and shallow' - which basically says more about YOUR attitude at that time to sex, than it does about any antisemitism you may have (wrongly) perceived.


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## Citizen66 (Feb 10, 2010)

If you want Jewish stereotyping in films then look no further than Oliver Twist...


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## Spion (Feb 10, 2010)

frogwoman said:


> that's one way of looking at it i suppose ...


If there are any examples of commentators in the media in the US or anywhere else that thinks the film is anti-semitic then we'll know whether there's any other way of seeing it


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## kabbes (Feb 10, 2010)

Spion said:


> If there are any examples of commentators in the media in the US or anywhere else that thinks the film is anti-semitic then we'll know whether there's any other way of seeing it



frogwoman is a commentator in the media, in that she is commenting and this is a form of media.


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## frogwoman (Feb 10, 2010)

david denby

http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2005/01/24/050124crci_cinema

http://www.jweekly.com/article/full/25003/misplaced-passion-for-films-turns-to-self-hatred/

- Criticises some nutter rabbi who went off on one about the film, but it does put across some clear arguments ...


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## Dillinger4 (Feb 10, 2010)

> But in many ways, this celebration of Jewish culture conforms to older stereotypes about Jews. For example, Ben Stiller’s character in the Meet the Fockers is effeminate and weak. His attempts to integrate himself into the "manly" gentile culture end in ridicule. He’s a modern version of the "weak, sickly"



http://www.uscj.org/Koach/kococt06tobias.htm


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## Badgers (Feb 10, 2010)

Nah


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## kabbes (Feb 10, 2010)

Dillinger4 said:


> http://www.uscj.org/Koach/kococt06tobias.htm



That's really reaching though.  "Effeminate and weak" is a stereotype that exists in *every* culture.


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## DotCommunist (Feb 10, 2010)

son in law makes twat of himself in attempts to appease domineering father is universal as well.


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## invisibleplanet (Feb 10, 2010)

frogwoman said:


> david denby
> 
> http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2005/01/24/050124crci_cinema



Which basically says Stiller is a crap actor who plays crap roles, but makes no claim to the film itself being antisemitic.


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## frogwoman (Feb 10, 2010)

I evidently wasn't the only average member of the public to find anti-semitism in the movie: 

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0290002/usercomments?start=50




			
				imdb commentator said:
			
		

> It dispenses with a story line. It cynically exploits children and animals for unfunny gags. It is filled with smut. It presents a debased, unrecognisable, version of Jewish religious ritual (the shotgun wedding at the end). It recycles actors who are past their use-by dates, presumably in order to pay lower fees. The credits suggest that Robert De Niro put money into this picture. What a laugh. The family values cynically promoted in this picture seem to have little interest for him in his private life. Perhaps it was a make-work project for himself. He has driven his acting career to such a low point that his phone must have stopped ringing long ago. Compare Al Pacino's fine work in a picture like The Merchant of Venice. Compare the noble treatment of Judaism in that fine picture with the trivialisation of it in this movie.






			
				another imdb commentator said:
			
		

> I walked out after about ninety minutes in the theater.
> 
> "Meet the Fockers" didn't make me laugh once. There was some weak laughter in the crowded theater.
> 
> ...






			
				another imdb commentator said:
			
		

> Another question is, "Why did the movie makers feel it was necessary to Be so offensive?" The Focker parents are just Jewish stereotypes, and extremely offensive. The father is a lawyer, and the mother is a sex therapist for seniors, is that not offensive and stereotypical? Also, the only two Hispanic Characters are a maid, and her son. And, of course she is a single mother. My final question is, "How did a movie this bad make so much money?" It was number one for at least four weeks straight. "Why did so many people make the mistake I made by seeing this awful movie?"


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## invisibleplanet (Feb 10, 2010)

Utter twaddle.


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## butchersapron (Feb 10, 2010)

Al Pacino wrote that mind.


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## kabbes (Feb 10, 2010)

frogwoman said:


> I evidently wasn't the only average member of the public to find anti-semitism in the movie:
> 
> http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0290002/usercomments?start=50



Sorry -- where in your quote is this anti-semitism?  The fact that they didn't like the marriage ceremony?  That's hardly in the league of the stereotyping you are talking about.


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## Dirty Martini (Feb 10, 2010)

imdb commentator said:
			
		

> It presents a debased, unrecognisable, version of Jewish religious ritual (the shotgun wedding at the end). ...Compare the noble treatment of Judaism in that fine picture with the trivialisation of it in this movie.



It doesn't say it's antisemitic -- it says it debases Jewish religious ritual and trivialises 'Judaism' (a big word to use in this context). Like most mainstream Hollywood films on almost any subject, ethnic group, subculture you care to mention.

Hollywood feels no obligation to present a noble picture of anything. Why would it?


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## Citizen66 (Feb 10, 2010)

You've gotta pick a pocket or two.


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## Spion (Feb 10, 2010)

kabbes said:


> frogwoman is a commentator in the media, in that she is commenting and this is a form of media.


Sorry Mr Uber-Pedant, I meant mainstream media, ie someone who's paid to comment in the knowledge that that view will chime with or provoke enough people because it's an obvious case to be made. Or alternatively evidence that people concerned with how jews are represented in the media have written letters to newspapers or in some way made their feelings felt.

Not just internet obsessives having their say on comment boards


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## kabbes (Feb 10, 2010)

Spion said:


> Sorry Mr Uber-Pedant, I meant mainstream media, ie someone who's paid to comment in the knowledge that that view will chime with or provoke enough people because it's an obvious case to be made. Or alternatively evidence that people concerned with how jews are represented in the media have written letters to newspapers or in some way made their feelings felt.
> 
> Not just internet obsessives having their say on comment boards



That's better.  And don't you forget it.


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## Stoat Boy (Feb 10, 2010)

I tend to go with those who just think it was an okish film made for the US mainstream with out enough effort made to even begin to think it might be in any way or form offensive.

Now Lord of the Rings, that I can see people getting the hump with. Could have been made by Leni Riefenstahl !


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## frogwoman (Feb 10, 2010)

the majority of people who register and leave comments at IMDB aren't internet obsessives though. IMDB is such a popular website that it is fair to say that they represent quite a good cross section of the viewing public. And even the critical reviews that don't mention the anti-semitism mention things they disliked about the film such as the idea that it is "hilarious" to have foreskins landing in people's food etc


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## Ae589 (Feb 10, 2010)

frogwoman said:


> I evidently wasn't the only average member of the public to find anti-semitism in the movie:



Hey, hey, If you would take a second, take the little sticks out of your head, clean out your ears, and maybe you would see that I'm a person who has feelings, and all I have to do is do what I wanna do and all I want to do is hold on to my bag and not listen to you! And the only way that I would ever let go of my bag would be if you came over here right now and tried to pry it from my dead, lifeless fingers, okay? If you can get it from my kung-fu grip then you can come and have it, okay? Otherwise, step off, bitch.


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## kabbes (Feb 10, 2010)

frogwoman said:


> the majority of people who register and leave comments at IMDB aren't internet obsessives though.


And are you posting the views of the majority of the people who register and leave comments, or are you posting the view of one person who has registered and left a comment?


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## frogwoman (Feb 10, 2010)

The majority of people who posted comments just thought it was shit. Only a few people picked up on the anti-semitism but the reason I posted those quotes (and at the time of the films release some rabbis did come out and say similar things to what I'm saying today) is to prove that it is an identifiable feature of the film and not just my imagination.


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## kabbes (Feb 10, 2010)

frogwoman said:


> The majority of people who posted comments just thought it was shit.



Hardly a ringing endorsement for anti-semitism, then!

The fact remains, however, that there is a massive, gaping logical inconsistency in talking about a majority and then focussing on the actions of a single individual.  Even if 99.9% are sane, reasonable people, that doesn't mean you won't find a single individual that is a raving nutcase.


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## Thora (Feb 10, 2010)

I can see that there were lots of Jewish jokes in it - but weren't the other family kind of WASP stereotypes too?

Tbh I never knew sexual decadence was an anti-semitic stereotype.  I didn't think that because the mother was a sex therapist and they were hippies it was a negative thing though - just a contrast to the repressed other couple.


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## invisibleplanet (Feb 10, 2010)

Find a thesis (Is Meet the Fokkers an antisemitic film) and then cherry-pick comments on the web to back up thesis. Booo!


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## stupid dogbot (Feb 10, 2010)

frogwoman said:


> The majority of people who posted comments just thought it was shit. Only a few people picked up on the anti-semitism



Just like here, then...


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## frogwoman (Feb 10, 2010)

But it clearly wasn't just one individual.


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## frogwoman (Feb 10, 2010)

Thora said:


> I can see that there were lots of Jewish jokes in it - but weren't the other family kind of WASP stereotypes too?
> 
> Tbh I never knew sexual decadence was an anti-semitic stereotype.  I didn't think that because the mother was a sex therapist and they were hippies it was a negative thing though - just a contrast to the repressed other couple.



There are jokes at the other couple's expense but the majority of the film plays on the fact that the couple are so uncomfortable (and "rightly so"!!) with the constant talking about sex, foreskins in the food, the whole shrine to the son etc


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## kabbes (Feb 10, 2010)

frogwoman said:


> There are jokes at the other couple's expense but the majority of the film plays on the fact that the couple are so uncomfortable (and "rightly so"!!) with the constant talking about sex, foreskins in the food, the whole shrine to the son etc


Are constant talking about sex and having a shrine to your son Jewish stereotypes then? 

And foreskins in the food is a crude joke rather than a stereotype.  Unless there is a stereotype about kosher food that I have previously been completely unaware of.


----------



## kabbes (Feb 10, 2010)

frogwoman said:


> But it clearly wasn't just one individual.



"Clearly"?  That was a word I used to use in maths when I didn't actually know how to get from step A to step B.


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## stupid dogbot (Feb 10, 2010)

frogwoman said:


> But it clearly wasn't just one individual.



God, nevermind, can't be bothered.


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## Thora (Feb 10, 2010)

frogwoman said:


> There are jokes at the other couple's expense but the majority of the film plays on the fact that the couple are so uncomfortable (and "rightly so"!!) with the constant talking about sex, foreskins in the food, the whole shrine to the son etc



Is sex talk a Jewish thing though?  I assumed it was a hippy/new age thing.  None of that struck me as anti-semitic tbh.


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 10, 2010)

btw, i don't think the film makers set out to make an anti-semitic film - they're jewish themselves ffs - but I think that people in their position (not talking about people on here btw who were unaware of the stereotype) have to be pretty stunningly ignorant not to be aware of the history of such a grotesque portrayal and why some people may find it objectionable 


and again with the people making jokes about running hollywood etc - the people making those sort of complaints about jews and the media aren't going to be coming out with loads of stuff about how conservative and straight laced everything in hollywood is are they?


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## frogwoman (Feb 10, 2010)

kabbes said:


> "Clearly"?  That was a word I used to use in maths when I didn't actually know how to get from step A to step B.



 

I posted from three different comments from the first ten pages. There were 42 pages of comments, I didn't read through them all but the chances are there were a lot more.


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## goldenecitrone (Feb 10, 2010)

What's the difference between Russian Jews and German Jews? German Jews had stripes. Is that anti-semitic? Is it still anti-semitic when it's a Woody Allen joke in the film Love and Death? Not very funny, admittedly, but in context it's mildly amusing.


----------



## Spion (Feb 10, 2010)

frogwoman said:


> There are jokes at the other couple's expense but the majority of the film plays on the fact that the couple are so uncomfortable (and "rightly so"!!) with the constant talking about sex


it wasn't constant! it was one sub-theme among many that combined to play on the tension between uptight/disciplinarian/misanthropic vs loving/expressive/socially liberal.

If anything it should be WASPs complaining about the film. 

I think you're right up a dead end here expressing your own, for want of a better word, hang-ups.


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## Dillinger4 (Feb 10, 2010)

five pages

well done froggy


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## Spion (Feb 10, 2010)

Dillinger4 said:


> five pages
> 
> well done froggy


I guess it passes the hours on those long Moldovan evenings


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## frogwoman (Feb 10, 2010)

I can't believe everyone's taking this so seriously. The thing is you (not specifically you btw) have a go at me for having hangups etc and being too sensitive and the like, but actually most of you are getting pretty up in arms about the defence of what is, at the end of the day, a really shit film. I'd actually like to have a reasonable discussion about various themes in the film tbh. 


Even one of the positive reviews I've just read in the new york times hinges on the fact that the idea of the film was that there is something intrinsically "hilarious" about jews trying to fit into WASP american culture.


----------



## invisibleplanet (Feb 10, 2010)

it deameans real occurances of antisemitism to accuse the film of being antisemitic

I'm just mildly annoyed that the obviously sexually-inexperienced and prudish 17-year old who watched this film years ago and formed an opinion that deduced it was an antisemitic film,  and then saw fit years later to make a thread about it. I'm left wondering what advice Streisand's sex-therapist character would have had for such a 17-yr old girl.


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## kabbes (Feb 10, 2010)

Have I got up in arms?  I thought that I'd been pretty laid-back in discussion.  Maybe I need to see a therapist.


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## frogwoman (Feb 10, 2010)

Does it really demean real occurences of anti-semitism though to point out portrayals which have dodgy undertones? Note that nowhere in the thread have I said that the film makers are anti-semitic or that they deliberately made an anti-semitic film. Surely the cultural stereotypes implicit in the film and others like it do have an effect of encouraging real instances of real anti-semitism. 

The idea of jews as being wimpy, weird and so on do have an effect in mainstream culture btw and I know a few people in school who were bullied for these reasons, if jews are always being portrayed in a certain stereotypical way (ie nerdy, hopeless, effeminate etc) rather than just being presented as normal people (and this goes for any racial group btw) the assumptions will seep its way into mainstream culture


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## frogwoman (Feb 10, 2010)

kabbes said:


> Have I got up in arms?  I thought that I'd been pretty laid-back in discussion.  Maybe I need to see a therapist.



a sex therapist


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## invisibleplanet (Feb 10, 2010)

Yes, it really does not help to make false accusations where antisemitism is concerned.


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## kabbes (Feb 10, 2010)

I think your 17-year-old self is speaking through you at times, here.  Actually, I think that most people would view the Hoffman and Streisand characters as being FAR, FAR more normal than the WASPy family.  The Fockers were shown as being basically OK, loving people with a bit of a hippie tendency, as per many of their age.  Whereas the De Niro family were shown as being utter weirdos.


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## Dillinger4 (Feb 10, 2010)

kabbes said:


> I think your 17-year-old self is speaking through you at times, here.  Actually, I think that most people would view the Hoffman and Streisand characters as being FAR, FAR more normal than the WASPy family.  The Fockers were shown as being basically OK, loving people with a bit of a hippie tendency, as per many of their age.  Whereas the De Niro family were shown as being utter weirdos.



TBH, I thought they were _all_ fucking freaks.


----------



## Yuwipi Woman (Feb 10, 2010)

frogwoman said:


> So we shouldn't discuss whether anything in arts/literature has artistic merit or has dodgy undertones then? For what it's worth I'm not one of these people who finds anti-semitism in everything, but I did think that this film was, and I also found it tasteless and unfunny.



I thought it was tasteless and unfunny too.  Anti-semetic?  I don't know.  

The later movie called Meet the Parents took an opposite attitude about Jews and sex.  

A lot of Mel Brooks movies rely on Jewish stereotypes for humor.  Is that anti-semetic?   At least his shite is funny.


----------



## Thora (Feb 10, 2010)

frogwoman said:


> Does it really demean real occurences of anti-semitism though to point out portrayals which have dodgy undertones? Note that nowhere in the thread have I said that the film makers are anti-semitic or that they deliberately made an anti-semitic film. Surely the cultural stereotypes implicit in the film and others like it do have an effect of encouraging real instances of real anti-semitism.
> 
> The idea of jews as being wimpy, weird and so on do have an effect in mainstream culture btw and I know a few people in school who were bullied for these reasons, if jews are always being portrayed in a certain stereotypical way (ie nerdy, hopeless, effeminate etc) rather than just being presented as normal people (and this goes for any racial group btw) the assumptions will seep its way into mainstream culture



But being new age, sexually liberated hippies isn't a Jewish stereotype surely?  That's the bit I don't understand about what you're saying.


----------



## Orang Utan (Feb 10, 2010)

frogwoman said:


> Does it really demean real occurences of anti-semitism though to point out portrayals which have dodgy undertones? Note that nowhere in the thread have I said that the film makers are anti-semitic or that they deliberately made an anti-semitic film. Surely the cultural stereotypes implicit in the film and others like it do have an effect of encouraging real instances of real anti-semitism.
> 
> The idea of jews as being wimpy, weird and so on do have an effect in mainstream culture btw and I know a few people in school who were bullied for these reasons, if jews are always being portrayed in a certain stereotypical way (ie nerdy, hopeless, effeminate etc) rather than just being presented as normal people (and this goes for any racial group btw) the assumptions will seep its way into mainstream culture



there's a character in south park who's nerdy hopeless and annoying - kyle's cousin - he sounds just llke woody allen and inspires a whole bunch of anti-semitic insults from cartman.


----------



## Dillinger4 (Feb 10, 2010)

Thora said:


> But being new age, sexually liberated hippies isn't a Jewish stereotype surely?  That's the bit I don't understand about what you're saying.



I get what she is saying. It is an old stereotype given a new(ish) twist. 

Although I think that twist on that stereotype has been around since the 60s.


----------



## kabbes (Feb 10, 2010)

Orang Utan said:


> there's a character in south park who's nerdy hopeless and annoying - kyle's cousin - he sounds just llke woody allen and inspires a whole bunch of anti-semitic insults from cartman.



And Kyle hates him for it, as I recall.


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 10, 2010)

I'm not making "false accusations" though, I'm just stating my opinions of it - and i see what you're getting at there. I was asking a question because I myself found the film objectionable when I saw it and wondered whether I was on the right track. I really disliked it to be honest and not just for the reasons I've given. 

The de niro family were shown as being weirdos, yeah. But I think it is a total exaggeration to say that the fockers family were shown as being remotely normal.


----------



## Orang Utan (Feb 10, 2010)

is south park anti-semitic?


----------



## kabbes (Feb 10, 2010)

Dilly or Froggy, can you name one other representation of the  Fockers-style free-loving, hippie Jewish stereotype in film, book or other media?


----------



## Reno (Feb 10, 2010)

Orang Utan said:


> is south park anti-semitic?



It's anti-everything.


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 10, 2010)

Thora said:


> But being new age, sexually liberated hippies isn't a Jewish stereotype surely?  That's the bit I don't understand about what you're saying.



It is, and it's a stereotype that's been doing the rounds since at least the early 20th century if not before; it's also linked to the "jews run hollywood" stereotype (which has its roots, like a lot of things in truth - like the involvement in the civil rights movement etc) as Dirty martini posted earlier. It's also not entirely a negative stereotype for obvious reasons. Think about it, anti-semites aren't going to be having a go at jews running hollywood for making patriotic, morally righteous type films.


----------



## Dillinger4 (Feb 10, 2010)

Actually, going back to something Kabbes said earlier, I am not surprised they made the Jew references very subtle, Hollywood dislikes making films about Jews. 

Have you ever seen _For Your Consideration_?


----------



## quimcunx (Feb 10, 2010)

Overwhelming opinion on here seems to be that you are not on the right track. 

It was two different families with clashing lifestyles clashing.  These differences were exaggerated for comic effect, as is often the case.  The situations were exaggerated. 

You could just have easily made the hippies from a christian background and the uptight people from a jewish background.    

Perhaps that would have elicited from you similar claims of anti-semitism. 



*hasn't seen the film*


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 10, 2010)

What I don't get about the stereotyping and the ranting of r/w american loons is the 'jews and commies' thing. Judaism isn't exactly a hotbed of communist thought and communists haven't always been nice to jews, leftist anti-semetism is well documented.

So what the fuck?


----------



## invisibleplanet (Feb 10, 2010)

frogwoman said:


> It is, and it's a stereotype that's been doing the rounds since at least the early 20th century if not before.



Bullshit. You can't compare anti-'alien' (i.e. anti-immigrant), TU protectionism of the early 20th century where  Jews were portrayed as being the source of prostitution/pimping/gangster activity,  with late 50s onwards american jewish involevment in civil rights activism & liberal sexual emancipation.

Steve Cohen wrote about these what you're calling 'a stereotype that has been doing the rounds since the early 20th century' - you're revising history to fit your false premise about this film.




			
				Steve Cohen said:
			
		

> As a lawyer and member of No One Is Illegal I was surprised to find there has been no comprehensive study on the history of trafficking and anti-trafficking legislation in this country dealing both with trafficking for sex and for other forms of labour exploitation. I should have realised some of this history by virtue of knowing that under the 1905 Aliens Act Jewish women sex workers in Cardiff had been deported. The Jewish Chronicle of 30 April 1909 reported a meeting in Cardiff organised against women sex workers where it was stated that:
> 
> 
> > “Owing to the leniency of the Cardiff stipendiary magistrate a few years ago, two Jewesses out of thirty seven who had been before him were allowed to remain in Cardiff, the other thirty five having been deported”.
> ...



It's just ridiculous to even try to compare the two time periods in this way. By all means, compare prostitution then with prostitution now, or the plights of immigrants then with now, but don't try to make false correlations or false accusations of antisemitism re. this very silly film which cleverly brings together two American stereotypes together for the purpose of humour.


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 10, 2010)

DotCommunist said:


> What I don't get about the stereotyping and the ranting of r/w american loons is the 'jews and commies' thing. Judaism isn't exactly a hotbed of communist thought and communists haven't always been nice to jews, leftist anti-semetism is well documented.
> 
> So what the fuck?



what the fuck indeed


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 10, 2010)

invisibleplanet said:


> Bullshit. You can't compare anti-'alien' (i.e. anti-immigrant), TU protectionism of the early 20th century where Jews were accused being involved in prostitution/pimping/gangster activity with late 50s onwards american jewish involevment in civil rights activism & liberal sexual emancipation.



You can however link anti-semites' reactions to those things. And Jews were also active in pre-60s social liberalism and during the early 20th century as well - and - quelle surprise - got attacked for it. Unless you think that jews only became involved in liberal thought and social activism post 1945? 

unless you think that generalised anti-immigrant sentiment was the only form of anti-semitism that existed during the early 20th century. there was widespread "criticism" (read anti-semitic bile) from "conservatives" of jews' growing involvement in the film and theatre industry, the arts, etc, too, that didn't just stem from accusations of prostitution and pimping. 


my friend (who liked the film in question) liked it because they were ALL fucking freaks, as dillinger says. She didn't think that the focker family was "normal"


----------



## Thora (Feb 10, 2010)

frogwoman said:


> It is, and it's a stereotype that's been doing the rounds since at least the early 20th century if not before; it's also linked to the "jews run hollywood" stereotype (which has its roots, like a lot of things in truth - like the involvement in the civil rights movement etc) as Dirty martini posted earlier. It's also not entirely a negative stereotype for obvious reasons. Think about it, anti-semites aren't going to be having a go at jews running hollywood for making patriotic, morally righteous type films.



The sexually liberated hippy Jew isn't a stereotype I'm familiar with, so that didn't strike me as anti-semitic.  It's not even negative - if anything their attitude to sex is positive compare to the other family's uptight repression 

Both sets of parents were exaggerated for comic effect.


----------



## kabbes (Feb 10, 2010)

kabbes said:


> Dilly or Froggy, can you name one other representation of the  Fockers-style free-loving, hippie Jewish stereotype in film, book or other media?



Sorry for the self-quote, but I didn't want this to get lost.  I think I would understand where you are coming from much better if you were to find some other examples of what you are talking about.


----------



## stupid dogbot (Feb 10, 2010)

Up in arms, eh?

Nah.

You're just wrong.


----------



## Yuwipi Woman (Feb 10, 2010)

This question is bit off topic, but I wonder if there's some self-hatred in some Jewish comedians and Jewish commentators.  

Theres a guy named Michael Savage (originally Weiner), who is a Jew from Queens, NY.  He also happens to be the most anti-semetic person I've ever heard on the radio.  He has a way of pronouncing Jewish names that draws out it out to emphasize that they're Jewish.  If it happens to be a Jewish lawyer, his pronounciation of the name can take 15 - 20 seconds.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 10, 2010)

We want positive stereotypes!


----------



## invisibleplanet (Feb 10, 2010)

DotCommunist said:


> What I don't get about the stereotyping and the ranting of r/w american loons is the 'jews and commies' thing. Judaism isn't exactly a hotbed of communist thought and communists haven't always been nice to jews, leftist anti-semetism is well documented.
> 
> So what the fuck?



Things began to change in the 1930s and reached a head in the 1950s. It's a long story, but you could research the struggle in Argentina between zionists and the bund for a fairly comprehensive snapshot of how this political difference in various world jewish communities played out.


----------



## Citizen66 (Feb 10, 2010)

Yuwipi Woman said:


> A lot of Mel Brooks movies rely on Jewish stereotypes for humor.  Is that anti-semetic?   At least his shite is funny.



A lot of comedy writers rely on stereotypes because humour is derived from them.


----------



## kabbes (Feb 10, 2010)

Citizen66 said:


> A lot of comedy writers rely on stereotypes because humour is derived from them.


Archetypes more than  stereotypes, I'd say.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 10, 2010)

invisibleplanet said:


> Things changed in the 1950s. it's a long story, but you could research the struggle in Argentina between zionists and the bund for a fairly comprehensive snapshot of how this political difference in various world jewish communities played out.



You were in this film right vic?


----------



## invisibleplanet (Feb 10, 2010)

frogwoman said:


> You can however link anti-semites' reactions to those things. And Jews were also active in pre-60s social liberalism and during the early 20th century as well - and - quelle surprise - got attacked for it. Unless you think that jews only became involved in liberal thought and social activism post 1945?
> 
> unless you think that generalised anti-immigrant sentiment was the only form of anti-semitism that existed during the early 20th century. there was widespread "criticism" (read anti-semitic bile) from "conservatives" of jews' growing involvement in the film and theatre industry, the arts, etc, too, that didn't just stem from accusations of prostitution and pimping.
> 
> ...



You can't use this film in the way you're doing to make the statement you're trying to make about antisemitism. Although you're trying very hard to, you're not succeeding.


----------



## invisibleplanet (Feb 10, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> You were in this film right vic?



Of course, I played Mrs. Focker. I sense your chakras need balancing, butch.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 10, 2010)

invisibleplanet said:


> Of course, I played Mrs. Focker.



That was the Jon Voight character right?


----------



## kyser_soze (Feb 10, 2010)

> This question is bit off topic, but I wonder if there's some self-hatred in some Jewish comedians and Jewish commentators.



In any other ethnic or cultural group, it would be called 'self deprecating'. If it's a jew doing it, it's 'self-hating'.

Can't find the obligatory 'Curb' link about Wagner, sadly.


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 10, 2010)

Yuwipi Woman said:


> This question is bit off topic, but I wonder if there's some self-hatred in Jewish comedians and Jewish commentators.
> 
> Theres a guy named Michael Savage (originally Weiner), who is a Jew from Queens, NY.  He also happens to be the most anti-semetic person I've ever heard on the radio.  He has a way of pronouncing Jewish names that draws out it out to emphasize that they're Jewish.  If it happens to be a Jewish lawyer, his pronounciation of the name can take 15 - 20 seconds.



I didn't know he was Jewish. But he is also a cunt. 


I do think that there's probably an element of self-hatred in a lot of these people, yeah (and that probably goes for any minority group tbh). The question is whether its funny or not rather than a simply offensive and grotesque portrayal. If people really haven't heard of this stereotype it's probably a good thing. 


http://mj.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/pdf_extract/20/1/1

The idea of Jewish decadence and permissiveness in the arts and media - industry - ie ranting about "liberals/jews" is also a very American thing. If you search for it on google you will come up with quite a lot of anti-semitic sites with the same/similar themes as I have mentioned in this thread, which I don't particularly want to click on or link to.


----------



## kabbes (Feb 10, 2010)

But, and I hate to belabour the question but it is an important one, you still need to point us towards another example of this particular stereotype in film or other media.


----------



## Dirty Martini (Feb 10, 2010)

frogwoman said:


> It is, and it's a stereotype that's been doing the rounds since at least the early 20th century if not before; it's also linked to the "jews run hollywood" stereotype (which has its roots, like a lot of things in truth - like the involvement in the civil rights movement etc) as Dirty martini posted earlier. It's also not entirely a negative stereotype for obvious reasons. Think about it, anti-semites aren't going to be having a go at jews running hollywood for making patriotic, morally righteous type films.



I did point that out -- that allegations of 'Jewish decadence' focused on supposed Jewish domination of film, the media and the arts, with the aim of corrupting Gentile culture.

I still think it's a pretty big stick to beat Meet The Fockers with and I don't agree the film is antisemitic. Hollywood, and in fact any national cinema, does outrageous stereotype and florid culture clash as a matter of course.


----------



## invisibleplanet (Feb 10, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> That was the Jon Voight character right?


No. Were you playing the Anne Bayefsky character?


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 10, 2010)

Just who are the mindbenders? I believe there's been some research on this.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 10, 2010)

invisibleplanet said:


> No. Were you playing the Anne Bayefsky character?



Bizarre. But yes, somehow you've uncovered my real agenda - to "stifle open debate about US-Israeli foreign policy." - well done vic.


----------



## Dirty Martini (Feb 10, 2010)

frogwoman said:


> The idea of Jewish decadence and permissiveness in the arts and media - industry - ie ranting about "liberals/jews" is also a very American thing. If you search for it on google you will come up with quite a lot of anti-semitic sites with the same/similar themes as I have mentioned in this thread, which I don't particularly want to click on or link to.



It was absolutely at the centre of Germany's self-proclaimed culture war in the first half of the century, and it can be found in varying degrees in all Western European countries at the time.


----------



## invisibleplanet (Feb 10, 2010)

Oh no, froggy uses the the 'self-hating Jew' stereotype to accuse jews of demeaning jews 
You saw it here first, folks.


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 10, 2010)

Dirty Martini said:


> I did point that out -- that allegations of 'Jewish decadence' focused on supposed Jewish domination of film, the media and the arts, with the aim of corrupting Gentile culture.
> 
> I still think it's a pretty big stick to beat Meet The Fockers with and I don't agree the film is antisemitic. Hollywood, and in fact any national cinema, does outrageous stereotype and florid culture clash as a matter of course.



I actually, agree with you and I don't think it is a deliberately anti-semitic film - but I do think it has some pretty dodgy undertones that one would have to be spectacularly ignorant as a film maker not to have been aware of.


----------



## invisibleplanet (Feb 10, 2010)




----------



## frogwoman (Feb 10, 2010)

invisibleplanet said:


> Oh no, froggy uses the the 'self-hating Jew' stereotype to accuse jews of demeaning jews
> You saw it here first, folks.



Huh? I'm not doing any such thing. I'm pointing out that portrayals of jews or whatever as weak/effeminate/obscenely sexually permissive etc work their way into popular culture and contribute to how jews are generally seen by that culture, and while it is perhaps a bit over the top to call it an anti-semitic film (i only did this to provoke discussion anyway) it does have some very dodgy sides to it, i found it offensive and i don't think it's being "hysterical" or falsely accusing people of anti-semitism to do it.


----------



## kyser_soze (Feb 10, 2010)

So it's subtexturally anti-semitic?

Of course, if I were a WASP I'd be furious that the ongoing portrayl of wealthy east coast white protestants as sexually repressed, emotionally retarded idiots got full treatment in this, and in almost every other Hollywood film that features WASPs...


----------



## stupid dogbot (Feb 10, 2010)

frogwoman said:


> I actually, agree with you and I don't think it is a deliberately anti-semitic film - but I do think it has some pretty dodgy undertones that one would have to be spectacularly ignorant as a film maker not to have been aware of.



Why don't you email the filmmakers and ask them which one they are?


----------



## kabbes (Feb 10, 2010)

It's already been said, but it's certainly an irony that if the religions of the families had been swapped, the film would still be suffering from accusations of semitic stereotyping.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 10, 2010)

Is it so wrong to use anti-semetic tropes anyway?


----------



## Yuwipi Woman (Feb 10, 2010)

invisibleplanet said:


> Oh no, froggy uses the the 'self-hating Jew' stereotype to accuse jews of demeaning jews
> You saw it here first, folks.



Froggy wasn't the one who brought it up.  I was.


----------



## kabbes (Feb 10, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> Is it so wrong to use anti-semetic tropes anyway?


I'm a Nubian.  Mind tricks don't work on me -- only money.


----------



## Yuwipi Woman (Feb 10, 2010)

frogwoman said:


> The idea of Jewish decadence and permissiveness in the arts and media - industry - ie ranting about "liberals/jews" is also a very American thing. If you search for it on google you will come up with quite a lot of anti-semitic sites with the same/similar themes as I have mentioned in this thread, which I don't particularly want to click on or link to.



I have to admit that I was unaware of that stereotype.  Nebraska isn't exactly a hotbed of Jewish culture.


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 10, 2010)

> I do think that there's probably an element of self-hatred in a lot of these people, yeah (and that probably goes for any minority group tbh).



This is what I said. I don't see how that's using a self-hating jew stereotype to criticise other jews, and who said that the promotion of such stereotypes by jews could never be challenged? 


Just because zionists or whoever use the idea of a "self-hating jew" to denigrate critics of Israel and the like, surely it isn't wrong to discuss the idea whatsoever or absolutely deny its existence? Sometimes it can even be a positive thing as it's mentioned; if you're being picked on at school and someone tells an anti-semitic joke you tell one ten times worse etc. Use cultural baggage etc to make an impact. Larry David type characters are funny (as was the ben stiller character in the first MTP) because they play so convincingly on jewish insecurities/stereotypes but they do it in a realistic, and not a grotesque and twisted fashion.


----------



## Reno (Feb 10, 2010)

"I don't care to belong to a club that accepts people like me as members."

- Groucho Marx


----------



## Santino (Feb 10, 2010)

kabbes said:


> I'm a Nubian.  Mind tricks don't work on me -- only money.









Toydarian, though.


----------



## invisibleplanet (Feb 10, 2010)

Yuwipi Woman said:


> Froggy wasn't the one who brought it up.  I was.



I don't care who brought it up, froggy thought there was "probably an element of self-hatred" and I've heard that used over and over by Jews to politically attack other Jews. Never thought she'd use that line, but heyho, she did.


----------



## soluble duck (Feb 10, 2010)

frogwoman said:


> Larry David type characters are funny (as was the ben stiller character in the first MTP) because they play so convincingly on jewish insecurities/stereotypes but they do it in a realistic, and not a grotesque and twisted fashion.



I think you have a point, and are almost right, but I still wouldn't say that the film was anti-semitic, I think they were implying a stereotype of the 'liberal jew' but because the film is shit and poorly written they couldn't find anything funny in there, unlike the great Jewish comedians who play on these stereotypes with much succes (admittedly more of the usual 'neurotic jewish man'- larry david, woody allen).

I think after they made the first film where there is no mention about the Focker family, and Ben Stiller is set up as a weed smoking jew, his parents in the second film had to fit around this, and the De Niro character's fears etc. Thus they get two REALLY Jewish actors and play up the whole sex shit. The idea that this is some stereotype doing the rounds in Hollywood is a bit far IMO. They just made a really crap film which failed to make anything funny of this stereotype, maybe because people don't really get it anymore?


----------



## invisibleplanet (Feb 10, 2010)

Sure, the stereotypes are easier to get if you actually lived through and can remember USA's cold war rhetoric.


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 10, 2010)

soluble duck said:


> I think you have a point, and are almost right, but I still wouldn't say that the film was anti-semitic, I think they were implying a stereotype of the 'liberal jew' but because the film is shit and poorly written they couldn't find anything funny in there, unlike the great Jewish comedians who play on these stereotypes with much succes (admittedly more of the usual 'neurotic jewish man'- larry david, woody allen).
> 
> I think after they made the first film where there is no mention about the Focker family, and Ben Stiller is set up as a weed smoking jew, his parents in the second film had to fit around this, and the De Niro character's fears etc. Thus they get two REALLY Jewish actors and play up the whole sex shit. The idea that this is some stereotype doing the rounds in Hollywood is a bit far IMO. They just made a really crap film which failed to make anything funny of this stereotype, maybe because people don't really get it anymore?



fwiw, I agree with you.


----------



## Yuwipi Woman (Feb 10, 2010)

invisibleplanet said:


> I don't care who brought it up, froggy thought there was "probably an element of self-hatred" and I've heard that used over and over by Jews to politically attack other Jews. Never thought she'd use that line, but heyho, she did.



If you'd heard Michael Savage, you'd probably agree that he hates Jews.  He also happens to be one -- so "self-hatred" is a rational take on his character.


----------



## N_igma (Feb 10, 2010)

I'm pretty sure seeing a thread about Meet the Fockers on S****front a few years ago and they were saying over there how anti-white this film was portraying DeNiro as the white hard ass who doesn't know how to have fun etc. Point is you can construe most films being anti this and pro that if you try hard enough.


----------



## pesh (Feb 10, 2010)

i remember the cat flushing the dog down the loo but very little else. hth


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 10, 2010)

Yuwipi Woman said:


> If you'd heard Michael Savage, you'd probably agree that he hates Jews.  He also happens to be one -- so "self-hatred" is a rational take on his character.



Yep. He does hate jews. Nothing wrong with discussing the phenomenon or admitting that there is an element of that with some people. Or questioning the fact that many media portrayals of jews (or anything else) conform to stereotypes of them which may not be entirely pleasant, and some of the media portrayals are made by jewish people themselves. Whether or not you, in the end, decide whether it's good or bad. It doesn't make you a zionist ffs.


----------



## Reno (Feb 10, 2010)

pesh said:


> i remember the cat flushing the dog down the loo but very little else. hth



It was anti-felineistic as well.


----------



## Riklet (Feb 10, 2010)

Jews making jokes about jews shocker...


----------



## kabbes (Feb 10, 2010)

Santino said:


> Toydarian, though.


Dammit -- it was the ship that was Nubian, wasn't it?


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 10, 2010)

Phew, finally i get the joke/allusion.


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 10, 2010)

the nubian/ship thing? i still dont get that im afraid


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 10, 2010)

Some star trek joke that i had to google


----------



## Santino (Feb 10, 2010)

kabbes said:


> Dammit -- it was the ship that was Nubian, wasn't it?



Yeah. 

Still... that Toydarian. He sure liked money and had a big nose.


----------



## kabbes (Feb 10, 2010)

frogwoman said:


> the nubian/ship thing? i still dont get that im afraid



Famous movie anti-semitism row.  In the first Star Wars prequel, George Lucas created an alien with a hook nose, wringing hands, a stereotypical middle-East/US accent and an obsession with money.  Unsurprisingly, a kot of people saw some anti-Semitic overtones.


----------



## kabbes (Feb 10, 2010)

I mean, this guy REALLY looked like a Naxi poster caracature.  It totally wasn't funny.


----------



## kyser_soze (Feb 10, 2010)

frogwoman said:


> the nubian/ship thing? i still dont get that im afraid



It's from The Phantom Menace, which was roundly criticised for making it's bad guys alien versions of the Japanese and a jew.







_Sounds_ like he's Japanese...






Jew?






Black?


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 10, 2010)

He was able to resist the jedi mind trick as well. Just like those cunning jews to resist a mental compulsion by arcane wizard-warriors


----------



## Reno (Feb 10, 2010)

kyser_soze said:


> _Sounds_ like he's Japanese...
> 
> 
> 
> ...








Gay ?


----------



## kyser_soze (Feb 10, 2010)

Blates.


----------



## invisibleplanet (Feb 10, 2010)

US film with aliens in racial stereoype shocker ...


----------



## revol68 (Feb 10, 2010)

this thread is as retarded as those gobshite London Irish who complained about Father Ted being anti Irish racism.


----------



## invisibleplanet (Feb 10, 2010)

invisibleplanet in agreement* with revol68 shocker








*except in the use of 'gobshite' and 'retarded' as adjectives to describe London Irish


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## frogwoman (Feb 10, 2010)

I don't find every media portrayal of Jews in a bad light or Jewish villains anti-semitic btw and it's probably pretty healthy to have negative portrayals of Jewish characters, what I objected to in the particular film was the grotesque and exaggerated nature of what were stereotypically negatively jewish characterisics. For example, in the X Men, Magneto was in a concentration camp before he became a notorious villain. The portrayal of him wasn't anti-semitic as it was because his background was the way it was, that he became the person he was. It thus, helped one to understand and get a more nunced idea of the character. 


i don't know much about the george lucas/alien thing but thats actually cheered up my day because I'm in masses of pain at the mo and had to go home early from a night out


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## frogwoman (Feb 10, 2010)

I will admit I was slightly trolling with the thread title but I was eventually hoping with this thread to get into a discussion as to whether it was always necessarily a "good thing" to always portray jewish characters in certain lights, ie insexure and nerdy etc, as one new york times reviewer put iy the idea that theres intrinsiclly something funny about being jews in america ven if it is funny,rather than just portaying them as normal.


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## Santino (Feb 10, 2010)

The thing about that bit of The Phantom Menace is that it's heavily influenced by Biblical epic type films, what with slaves in the desert and the virgin birth and the chariot race and the glavin. So you could see Watto as just a kind of nod to all those Hollywood stereotypes of the money-grubbing Jew from Charlton Heston films.


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## frogwoman (Feb 10, 2010)

IP et al - do you think it is degrading anti-semitism to describe the Passion of the Christ as an anti-semitic film despite the fact that there were jews working on the production team? I'm not comparing the two or trying to have a go btw - i'm just asking.


What about if the Meet the Fockers film had been exactly the same, the same actors, with exactly the same jokes except made by mel gibson? 

serious question btw


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## goldenecitrone (Feb 11, 2010)

frogwoman said:


> What about if the Meet the Fockers film had been exactly the same, the same actors, with exactly the same jokes except made by mel gibson?
> 
> serious question btw



Or Adolf Hitler. What if he'd if he'd directed it with Himmler as cinematographer and Rudolf Hess as producer?


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## Santino (Feb 11, 2010)

Does anyone want to talk about Star Wars some more?


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## Dillinger4 (Feb 11, 2010)

No.


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## Santino (Feb 12, 2010)

Slimo.


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## Spion (Feb 12, 2010)

frogwoman said:


> IP et al - do you think it is degrading anti-semitism to describe the Passion of the Christ as an anti-semitic film despite the fact that there were jews working on the production team? I'm not comparing the two or trying to have a go btw - i'm just asking.


There's a smidgen of difference between the two films, isn't there? Meet the Fockers isn't a repetition of a thousand-plus year old story that helped whip up European peasants to burn jews in towers and the like. Unless I'm missing something. Is there an anti-semitic folk tale of the Christian family going to stay with their son's future in-laws and being mocked for their uprightness and piety by loose-moralled jews?


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