# The dragon has two tongues - a history of the welsh



## Udo Erasmus (Mar 8, 2010)

got this via Dic Penderyn,

unfortunately only episode one of the thirteen part tv series



_Written and presented by Wynford Vaughan-Thomas and Gwyn Williams

Wynford Vaughan-Thomas, broadcaster and writer of many books about Wales, visits the Paviland Caves where ancient human remains were found, and argues that the beginning of Wales can be traced back many thousands of years. He also nestles up to Arthur's Stone and has a look at some stone circles.

Gwyn Williams, Professor of History and lifelong Marxist, takes great exception to this view. He begins his history of Wales down a disused coalmine, and argues that Welsh history proper began only 1,500 years ago. 

Throughout the episode, the two experts present their incompatible views of Wales and their totally different approach to history and how to define it. In the final part of this episode, they come face-to-face.

From "The Dragon Has Two Tongues: A History of the Welsh" Episode One: Where to Begin' (1985). _


----------



## fogbat (Mar 8, 2010)

It sounds like the premise for a fantastic buddy-movie.


----------



## Dic Penderyn (Mar 8, 2010)

It looks a cracker, Gywn Alf's books are great reads and he's better on screen.  here's the details of the whole series: http://ftvdb.bfi.org.uk/sift/series/7083

I would love to see the whole thing, if anyone knows of a copy anywhere.


----------



## Belushi (Mar 8, 2010)

I remember it when I was a kid, good series as I recall. Gwyn Alf and Wynford bickering like an old married couple


----------



## lewislewis (Mar 9, 2010)

I also would like to get a copy of the whole thing.


----------



## llion (Mar 10, 2010)

They released a book/package of documents and sources which came in a nice big plastic folder to go with the series, which is brilliant, but as far as I know it has never been released on video or DVD. More's the pity as it was one of, if not the, best TV series about Welsh history. Gwyn Alff made some brilliant documentaries for S4C as, like one about Iolo Morgannwg where he would have a conversation with Iolo (played by a very funny actor, Dafydd Hywel)!


----------



## Udo Erasmus (Mar 11, 2010)

i recall reading an article by gwyn alf williams in an old History Workshop Journal putting forward an argument for the druids as the first organic intellectuals . . .

his funeral oratoration on the death of miners leader, dai francis (father of historian, hywel francis mp) is very interesting and aludes to iolo morganwg and 'people's remembrancers' and so on, i have it in an old copy of _llafur_ - welsh people's history society journal, may type it up some time and post it online so it can be more accesible


----------



## lewislewis (Mar 12, 2010)

As far as I am aware _Llafur_ still operates as a functioning society and holds talks every so often. Would be nice if all of these things can be aggregated or archived online. We are in danger of losing our own history otherwise. If these things don't reach the internet, then what's the point.


----------



## Udo Erasmus (Mar 12, 2010)

yes, _Llafur_ still around, I am an inactive member, went to quite a good day school they hosted on co-operatives awhile back. It would be great if they put all the articles from their old journals online, but you can buy the back issues of the journal.

http://llafur.org/

re. the internet, there is lots of stuff now that could be put online and perhaps become more accesible to the masses. for example, i am doing some research on a communist organiser in cardiff in the thirties called len jeffries (who was one of the leaders of the battle of frederick street in cardiff, nineteen-thirty-two when unemployed fought a pitched battle with cops after an unemployed workers union demo), before he died he recorded several hours of interviews in the early seventies about his life, in order to listen to the tapes you have to physically goto the archive in the south wales miners library at swansea university. but then again older scholars might feel agrieved at the younger generation who want to research without leaving there computer!


----------



## rhod (Mar 12, 2010)

Belushi said:


> I remember it when I was a kid, good series as I recall. Gwyn Alf and Wynford bickering like an old married couple



Yeah - I think HTV used to show it on Sunday night, and I'd see it again during the week during a school history lesson on one of those new-fangled video recorder things.. The series was a godsend to history teachers in Wales!

Would be nice if ITV were to repeat the series, but I think it would only highlight how far the standards of programming have fallen since then.


----------



## davesgcr (Mar 12, 2010)

Quality programmes - once met Wynford on a Sunday evening train to London and was most impressed  - a good man who enjoyed his history and his drink ! 

Reccomend his autobiography !


----------



## Anna Cyp (Oct 7, 2011)

I am serious about tracking down a copy of this series. I come from Greece and study Greek History in uni but I also have an interest for small nations in Europe and lived in Wales for a year so my interest sort of grew. I can't believe that it is virtually a lost documentary. Anyone tried to contact the production company? If not, can you do that and tell us here what's the reply?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 7, 2011)

there's a copy of the series in the library at cardiff university, which may be available on interlibrary loan. ill's can be arranged (for a fee) through your local library.


----------



## davesgcr (Oct 8, 2011)

Wynford VT was a character , I met him a couple of times on the Sunday evening train back to London - a very loquacious character , his autobiography is excellent. His run in's with Gwyn were superb (if a little staged) - this ought to be re -released.


----------



## Gavin Bl (Oct 8, 2011)

this has been kicking around on youtube for a while, saw some of it the first time round - but would love a copy of the series.


----------



## butchersapron (May 11, 2014)

Colin Thomas - the director of the series, has a new book/doco (sort of an update of another one he did years ago on the same city) about Donetsk the city founded by  in the 1870s by Welsh entrepreneur John Hughes and seventy Welsh workers and very much in the news again now. He's doing a talk on it in Bristol on 29th may at  The Hydra Bookshop, Old Market, BS2 0EZ

Some more info:

Dreaming a City: From Wales to Ukraine Colin Thomas

Here is a history of one Ukraine town, a microcosm of Russia. Hughesovka (later Stalino and Donetsk) was a mining and steel town founded in the 1870s by Welsh
entrepreneur John Hughes and seventy Welsh workers. This book traces the town's shifts from patriarchal beginnings through the Russian revolutions, Bolshevism, Stalinism, Nazi occupation and the collapse of Communism and 1990s' rising Ukraine nationalism, to Ukraine post-independence.

Partly a revisiting of the making of Colin Thomas' 1991 award-winning TV documentary, "Hughesovka and the New Russia", "Dreaming a City" is a special mixture of Russian and Welsh social and political history; travel journalism, and a tribute to Welsh historian Gwyn Alf Williams, as well as being a personal memoir of a life in TV and history.

Probing important themes such as capitalism and communism; internationalism and nationalism, in addition to freedom and exploitation, the author uses the city as a metaphor to explore a retreat from political idealism, and the nature of hope and disillusion.

Reviews of the author's documentaries:

The Dragon has Two Tongues - "It's... uniquely provocative approach to history will have sent more than one documentary film maker...back to the drawing board" (The Times)

The Divided Kingdom - "The name of Colin Thomas...a guarantee of intelligence and scrupulous integrity" (The Financial Times) Hughesovka and the New Russia

Border Crossing: The Journey of Raymond Williams - "Splendid" (The Guardian)


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 10, 2017)

Colin is doing a talk on opposition to WW1 at the University of West of England Frenchay Campus this monday at 7.

SLAUGHTER NO REMEDY For the present government the centenary of the First World War is seen as an opportunity to commemorate victorious patriotism. The reality is that a War that cost millions of lives encountered strong religious and political opposition. Over 6000 conscientious objectors were sent to prison, 40 of them from Bristol. Colin Thomas from the Bristol Radical History Group will talk about local opposition to the war at 7pm on Jan.16th in the Students Union on UWE's Frenchay campus, using extracts from programmes he has made. He is an award winning television director.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 16, 2017)

Another Colin Thomas related event:

Colin Thomas: Reel Rebel 18 (CTBA)
Sun 7 May 14:00
Bristol Watershed
120 mins



> Born and brought up in Wales but for many years based in Bristol, director and producer Colin Thomas has more than half a lifetime of innovative, restless, rebellious filmmaking under his belt. In his time at the BBC until 1978, when he resigned over an issue of censorship of a programme he made in Northern Ireland, and subsequently as an independent producer, for 50 years Thomas has never tired of, indeed even enjoyed, upsetting conventional wisdom and disrupting the status quo. Employing radical and provocative ideas in documentary, drama and animation, he has struggled consistently to make television a vehicle for useful purpose and to help us understand our own history, the better to ensure that we don’t become a prisoner of someone else's.
> 
> In conversation with David Parker, he will explore this lifelong approach to filmmaking with extracts from documentaries such as Swallow Your Leader, Donald Crowhurst – Sponsored for Heroism and Reel Truth, from the award-winning series Animated Conversations, and from programmes focusing on history, including the groundbreaking series The Dragon Has Two Tongues


----------



## MightyTibberton (Dec 11, 2017)

Hello!

I posted a thread about the show in the history section:

Welsh Marxist historians in helicopters - crowdfunding the Dragon Has Two Tongues


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 11, 2017)

why not ask a mod to move the thread if you now want it in this forum?


----------



## MightyTibberton (Dec 11, 2017)

BECAUSE THAT WOULD BE THE SIMPLE, SENSIBLE THING TO DO!


----------



## MightyTibberton (Dec 11, 2017)

And because I don't know how. 

I think it belongs in both places and this was my non-expert-Urban75-user answer. 

And I thought the Dragon Has Two Tongues Has Two Threads would be a pleasing thing to type and now I can! 

Er, yes, thank you! How do I ask a mod?


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 11, 2017)

MightyTibberton said:


> And because I don't know how.
> 
> I think it belongs in both places and this was my non-expert-Urban75-user answer.
> 
> ...


pm editor, fridgemagnet, aqua or lazy llama. or mango5


----------



## MightyTibberton (Dec 11, 2017)

Ah! Thank you.


----------



## JimW (Dec 11, 2017)

There's also this old thread in the Wales forum: The dragon has two tongues - a history of the welsh


----------



## ddraig (Dec 24, 2017)

Blogger faces £143k bill for putting Welsh history series on YouTube


----------



## ddraig (Dec 24, 2017)

Blogger faces £143k bill for putting Welsh history series on YouTube


> But the 13-part series has been unavailable for many years and film buff Nick Stradling, who came across an old VHS tape of the programmes, wanted to give a new generation the opportunity to view it.
> 
> He said: “My initial thoughts were ‘How is this not commercially available and why had I never heard of it before?’ It’s dramatic, energetic, funny and inclusive.
> 
> ...


----------

