# Lap dancing club coming to Brixton Road



## Frumious B. (Dec 17, 2012)

Just spotted this item in the council's meetings calendar - a hearing about an application to have lap-dancing at the Max 2 Portuguese restaurant at 62 Brixton Rd. (OK, technically that's more Oval than Brixton, but what the hell.)

If anyone wants to exercise their democratic rights I reckon we can just turn up to this meeting of the licensing sub-committee this Wednesday at 7pm in the town hall www.lambeth.gov.uk/moderngov/ieListDocuments.aspx?CId=116&MId=8178 Don't want to sound prudish, but I really can't stand the way these places legitimize the notion that a woman's body is just a commodity to be bought and sold by men. Can't we at least _try _to evolve a little?

The nitty gritty is here - there's to be nude table-side dancing, pole dancing, films and who knows what else www.lambeth.gov.uk/moderngov/documents/s51930/03b%20-%20Max%202%20AppDocsPlan_SE6.pdf

Another item on the agenda is the House of Bottles off-licence next to the Albert wanting to open until 3 am at weekends. It seems that the police and "TS" (trading standards?) have something to say about it. Seems a bit odd, given that all the other offies are open 24 hours. www.lambeth.gov.uk/moderngov/ieIssueDetails.aspx?IId=30572&Opt=3


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## Manter (Dec 17, 2012)

Frumious B. said:


> Just spotted this item in the council's meetings calendar - a hearing about an application to have lap-dancing at the Max 2 Portuguese restaurant at 62 Brixton Rd. (OK, technically that's more Oval than Brixton, but what the hell.)
> 
> If anyone wants to exercise their democratic rights I reckon we can just turn up to this meeting of the licensing sub-committee this Wednesday at 7pm in the town hall www.lambeth.gov.uk/moderngov/ieListDocuments.aspx?CId=116&MId=8178 Don't want to sound prudish, but I really can't stand the way these places legitimize the notion that a woman's body is just a commodity to be bought and sold by men. Can't we at least _try _to evolve a little?
> 
> ...


I'm in Amsterdam for work so can't come along.  But just ugh


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## thriller (Dec 17, 2012)

keep this rubbish to the west end for crying out loud


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## cuppa tee (Dec 17, 2012)

I pass this often, it's not open very much and until I read the application I didn't know it was a " sex establishment''. From the application it seems  its been ' trading with the same element of services' since 2006 as well and there was me thinking it was still a karaoke bar albeit one with one or two saucy looking punters.


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## Frumious B. (Dec 17, 2012)

Here's a picture of it http://ovalhistory.co.uk/historical-local-businesses/kellys-directories-1881-to-1928-local-streets/brixton-road/brixrd-wside/number-62a-brixton-road-in-kelly’s-directories-1881-to-1928/

The licensing situation seems quite complicated. The details are here www.lambeth.gov.uk/moderngov/documents/s51929/03a%20-%20Max%202%20report%2019%2012%2012.pdf

Looks like they've been offering "belly dancing, topless dancing, performance of striptease and dance which involves adult entertainment" with a premises licence. But now they want a sex establishment licence so they can offer "sex cinema" and "sex entertainment". Perhaps the key difference is that you can have striptease on a stage with a premises licence, but if you want table-side dancing, i.e. nude women literally sticking their body parts under the punters' noses, you need a sex entertainment licence? 

I suppose if you read the documents listed at the end under Observations you might find out more. But I can't be arsed.


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## Onket (Dec 17, 2012)

There was one in central Brixton fairly recently. I think it was in the building where the dentist is. Hang on a minute, I will search the site cos I'm sure I posted about it before.


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## Mrs Magpie (Dec 17, 2012)

I know that there's always the mention of increase in sex crime, trafficking women etc in areas with this sort of place but I'm finding it hard to find the evidence source for this.


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## Onket (Dec 17, 2012)

Here we go, it was in 2009- http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/prepare-to-be-outraged-brixtonites.231095/#post-8361318


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## youngian (Dec 17, 2012)

Frumious B. said:


> The nitty gritty is here - there's to be nude table-side dancing, pole dancing, films and who knows what else www.lambeth.gov.uk/moderngov/documents/s51930/03b%20-%20Max%202%20AppDocsPlan_SE6.pdf


 
Unfortunate choice of words:
"The venue is located at 62A Brixton Road SW9 and is on the well trafficked Brixton Road."


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 17, 2012)

Frumious B. said:


> Just spotted this item in the council's meetings calendar - a hearing about an application to have lap-dancing at the Max 2 Portuguese restaurant at 62 Brixton Rd. (OK, technically that's more Oval than Brixton, but what the hell.)
> 
> If anyone wants to exercise their democratic rights I reckon we can just turn up to this meeting of the licensing sub-committee this Wednesday at 7pm in the town hall www.lambeth.gov.uk/moderngov/ieListDocuments.aspx?CId=116&MId=8178 Don't want to sound prudish, but I really can't stand the way these places legitimize the notion that a woman's body is just a commodity to be bought and sold by men. Can't we at least _try _to evolve a little?
> 
> ...


 
Oh, my god. Life as we know it is about to come to an end. Only one thing to do:






















Personally, I say be thankful for small mercies. It could be worse.

It could be lapdancing


at a Starbucks


near the Brixton Tube station.


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## fogbat (Dec 17, 2012)

Relevant as always.


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## bluestreak (Dec 17, 2012)

you looking for a bunfight tonight johnny?  not sure why a man in canada feels the need to comment on this particular thread.


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## youngian (Dec 17, 2012)

This club might give some warm employment to the crack whore, who asks me if I would like some live entertainment round at hers, when looking at whats on outside the Ritzy.


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 17, 2012)

fogbat said:


> Relevant as always.


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## fogbat (Dec 17, 2012)

At least it's not that Debbie Downer photo again.


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 17, 2012)

bluestreak said:


> you looking for a bunfight tonight johnny? not sure why a man in canada feels the need to comment on this particular thread.


 
Prudishness, intolerance, kneejerk conservatism.

Even for a Canadian, it's hard to keep quiet. Call it 'editorial comment from afar'.


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 17, 2012)

fogbat said:


> At least it's not that Debbie Downer photo again.


 
This isn't about being a downer. It's something more fundamental than that.


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 17, 2012)

Anyway, I'm sorry: let the orgy of disapproval and righteous indignation continue...


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## Gramsci (Dec 17, 2012)

Mrs Magpie said:


> I know that there's always the mention of increase in sex crime, trafficking women etc in areas with this sort of place but I'm finding it hard to find the evidence source for this.


 
Interesting topic

Opposition to lap dancing bars is of two types:


They are to be opposed as they objective women. Part of the the pornification of society. Moral argument.
The one you mention they increase trafficking and sex crime in areas. Factual argument of effect on an area.
The two reasons are often mixed together. Objectification of women leads to a lower threshold for sex crime. 
Two opposing views from women here and here
"Belle du Jour" book takes apart the stats and says that sex crime and trafficking do not increase in an area with lap dancing bars.


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## fogbat (Dec 17, 2012)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> Anyway, I'm sorry: let the orgy of disapproval and righteous indignation continue...


That's all I ask.


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## Gramsci (Dec 17, 2012)

Frumious B. said:


> Looks like they've been offering "belly dancing, topless dancing, performance of striptease and dance which involves adult entertainment" with a premises licence. But now they want a sex establishment licence so they can offer "sex cinema" and "sex entertainment". Perhaps the key difference is that you can have striptease on a stage with a premises licence, but if you want table-side dancing, i.e. nude women literally sticking their body parts under the punters' noses, you need a sex entertainment licence?
> 
> I suppose if you read the documents listed at the end under Observations you might find out more. But I can't be arsed.


 
Ive looked this up a bit. After lobbying by groups like the Fawcett Society and Object the government of the day changed the licensing of lap dancing clubs to classify them as sex establishment like sex shops in Soho for example. This gives objectors and Councils more control in theory. 

Looks like individual Councils can take several different options in licensing lap dancing bars/clubs. 


No lap dancing clubs allowed
Cap on existing number of clubs
New licensing with provisos (Lambeths position accord to Object website
easy to follow info here on Object website of different Councils position on lap dancing.


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## Gramsci (Dec 17, 2012)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> Anyway, I'm sorry: let the orgy of disapproval and righteous indignation continue...


 
I must say I am not convinced by the arguments against .

As "Belle du Jour" says:



> At the end of the book, she turns to the question of who creates these myths about sexuality and why they are so popular. Like me, she identifies an unholy alliance between rightwing patriarchal men, evangelicals and radical feminists, who are not only anti-prostitution but anti-sex and anti-sexuality in any form. She goes further, to show the lazy complicity of the media, which welcome scare stories, whether true or false, and the tendency for "feminist" women to lampoon any woman who offers a new perspective, as she has done.


 
Objectification of people can take many forms. A worker in a shop or factory can be seen to be "objectified". That is used to make profit. Not really there out of there own free will. Why sexual objectification is any worse I am not clear. Being forced as women who are trafficked is one thing. This is a form of slavery which is already illegal and the police are not doing enough about.  Working in a lap dancing bar for money rather than working in Iceland for low pay is different.


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## Gramsci (Dec 17, 2012)

thriller said:


> keep this rubbish to the west end for crying out loud


 
I can always tell when things in the City are not going well. The ladies from the lap dancing clubs come out and give cards for there clubs in the street. 

If alls well in the City the lap dancing clubs do not need to do that as they are well patronised by the City. Often as "corporate entertainment". Which means paid by the firm they work for to entertain clients.


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## Gromit (Dec 17, 2012)

I saw the Khan fight the other night and one of the Round girls was being treated like a mobile street sign by one of the people in charge. Pushing her about the place. That upset me more that the fact the job is to pose in scanty clothing. Why? She was milking it for all it was worth and you could see that he was ruining her big moment for her. 

Interesting that we have people protesting paid nudity on a board that supports free nudity of its members.


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## Frumious B. (Dec 17, 2012)

There was a long programme about it on Radio 4 recently. The gist of it was that the dancers are being exploited and their wages have plummeted. The owners employ far more dancers per club. But they don't pay them anything - the dancers pay a fee to dance and then keep what the punters give them. Which isn't that much, because the punter:dancer ratio is lower. Plus the dancers have to pay fines to the owner for infractions like chewing gum or using their phone. But the dancers still do the work because it pays better than the alternatives.


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## RaverDrew (Dec 17, 2012)

Rather a lap-dancing club than another cupcake shop.


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## Gramsci (Dec 17, 2012)

Frumious B. said:


> There was a long programme about it on Radio 4 recently. The gist of it was that the dancers are being exploited and their wages have plummeted. The owners employ far more dancers per club. But they don't pay them anything - the dancers pay a fee to dance and then keep what the punters give them. Which isn't that much, because the punter:dancer ratio is lower. Plus the dancers have to pay fines to the owner for infractions like chewing gum or using their phone. But the dancers still do the work because it pays better than the alternatives.


 
They are being exploited as workers. This is not something that licensing covers. Also it happens in other industries. As u say they still do it as it pays better than alternatives.

This is where I part company with Object who want to eventually go for the Swedish model of stopping sex work. This would only make the matter worse. Just because I might not approve of a particular behaviour does not mean I think it should be banned.

Pay , employment rights and ability to turn to authorities if needed is what sex workers require.

Found this study from this article

*[PDF]* ​*Beyond Gender: An Examination of Exploitation in Sex - Sex*




> The effects of negative social stigma were also evident for most participants, regardless of gender.
> Although both men and women were adversely affected by social-stigma, for women, this appeared
> to have a greater impact and was mostly associated with the notion that women only resorted to
> sex-work because they had little choice. This places sex-workers, especially female sex-workers, in
> ...


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## Gromit (Dec 17, 2012)

Is the radio 4 programme the reason for your protest?

That women being paid well enough that they think it's worth their while aren't getting paid more whilst the owners get rich?

Which of the million other industries that do the same will you be protesting afterwards?


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## fogbat (Dec 18, 2012)

And how come there are no Straight Pride marches?


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## ShiftyBagLady (Dec 18, 2012)

Heh, I had no idea that place was a strip club.
I hope they're not given permission. Call me a prude or a po-faced feminist but don't see men paying for titilation or women selling titilation as a good or progressive thing. Inwoukd say the same if it was a burlesque club.
It's also a largely residential area too, I can't see it going down very well with the local. Though inwas a local and had no idea about it before now tbf...


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## Gromit (Dec 18, 2012)

Do you say the same about places where men strip for the entertainment of women?

Though not as common they do exist and the principle is exactly the same.


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## ShiftyBagLady (Dec 18, 2012)

Gromit said:


> Do you say the same about places where men strip for the entertainment of women?
> 
> Though not as common they do exist and the principle is exactly the same.


Yes, I do.
Obviously as a woman I feel a bit more strongly about he objectification if women and pressures I see and feel around that but I would certainly object to a male strip club there as well.


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## Frumious B. (Dec 18, 2012)

Gromit said:


> Is the radio 4 programme the reason for your protest?
> 
> That women being paid well enough that they think it's worth their while aren't getting paid more whilst the owners get rich?
> 
> Which of the million other industries that do the same will you be protesting afterwards?


 
No, my reason was the one I gave in the OP. I would like men and women to treat each other with love and respect. You can do that perfectly well when both parties are naked - naturism is very healthy and i wish there were much more of it. But the reality of the interaction between the sexes in strip clubs and lap dancing clubs is degrading to both sides. You see the effects of this in the US where it's a commonly held belief that marriage is just another form of prostitution. That is where lap-dancing leads. The arguments about low pay, trafficking and violence are just distracting side issues which don't bear much scrutiny.


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 18, 2012)

fogbat said:


> And how come there are no Straight Pride marches?


 
Straights aren't proud.


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## Gramsci (Dec 18, 2012)

Frumious B. said:


> No, my reason was the one I gave in the OP. I would like men and women to treat each other with love and respect. You can do that perfectly well when both parties are naked - naturism is very healthy and i wish there were much more of it. But the reality of the interaction between the sexes in strip clubs and lap dancing clubs is degrading to both sides. You see the effects of this in the US where it's a commonly held belief that marriage is just another form of prostitution. That is where lap-dancing leads. The arguments about low pay, trafficking and violence are just distracting side issues which don't bear much scrutiny.


 
But this is your view of what love and respect are.

Also the "reality" you talk of that is degrading is your view. Go back to my post #27 where I link to research. Actual escorts/ sex workers opinion is asked and they do not necessarily say the job is degrding themselves.

My counter argument is that to much about sex is discussed in moral terms. Sex is not always nice.

Why is it that this kind of objectification and exploitation are displaced onto sex? When they are at root imo due to living in a capitalist class based society. 

People might choose to be objectified in certain types of sexual practise like S&M.


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## fortyplus (Dec 18, 2012)

Yesterday - when this thread started - was International Day to End Sex Worker Violence.  
I don't like these clubs, what they stand for or promote. Punters  and dancers being exploited, but the dancers perhaps less than they might be otherwise. As Gramsci and Dr Magnati have shown the arguments aren't straightforward or simple.  Prohibition isn't usually an effective way of eliminating harmful practices, whether it's drugs, sex-work or whatever.  Even if we can all agree on where the harm is.
Arguably, though, the risk of violence to sex workers is lower in a regulated environment such as the one being proposed than in an unregulated one, so perhaps - despite my nimbyist distaste, I should not object too much. 

After all, the alternative might be for it to become a Tesco and the women would be on workfare.


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## MillwallShoes (Dec 18, 2012)

i have no strong beliefs for or against lapdancing clubs. wouldn't go in one as i find them too weird and creepy. makes both men and women base. prefer to see men and women in good lights, instead of either just writhing sex objects or creepy starers. you might as well go somewhere were people are gathered around having a wank. maybe that makes me prudish. prudish often gets a bad press anyway. an ultra liberal attitude to sex is just as irrational, imo.


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## Onket (Dec 18, 2012)

Some great posts in this thread-

Dancers being equated with crack whores!

Men openly masturbating in strip clubs!


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## el-ahrairah (Dec 18, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> Interesting topic
> 
> Opposition to lap dancing bars is of two types:
> 
> ...


 
Belle du Jour isn't a neutral source.  She chose prostitution and it made her very rich.  both the choice AND the resultant wealth are pretty rare.  There is plenty of evidence that sex crime and trafficking does increase.  Also, an anti-capitalist who is in favour of sex work is clearly only in favour of his own liberation from exploitation.  The exploitation involved in the sex industry is not just the objectivation of the individuals who choose to work in it (in as much as any work is a choice) but the continued exploitation of all women, the creation of a _sex class_, and blah blah blah etc.


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## fogbat (Dec 18, 2012)

Gromit said:


> Do you say the same about places where men strip for the entertainment of women?
> 
> Though not as common they do exist and the principle is exactly the same.


Yes. It is exactly the same. 

Face fucking palm etc.


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## thriller (Dec 18, 2012)

Gromit said:


> Interesting that we have people protesting paid nudity on a board that supports free nudity of its members.


 
fair point.


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## Gramsci (Dec 19, 2012)

el-ahrairah said:


> Belle du Jour isn't a neutral source. She chose prostitution and it made her very rich. both the choice AND the resultant wealth are pretty rare. There is plenty of evidence that sex crime and trafficking does increase. Also, an anti-capitalist who is in favour of sex work is clearly only in favour of his own liberation from exploitation. The exploitation involved in the sex industry is not just the objectivation of the individuals who choose to work in it (in as much as any work is a choice) but the continued exploitation of all women, the creation of a _sex class_, and blah blah blah etc.


 

Belle de Jour. Agreed she is not neutral. She does have direct knowledge. I put links to 2 articles with opposing views. I know this is an issue with opposing viewpoints.

What evidence of increase in trafficking and sex crime due to lap dancing bars do you have?

Where did I say Im in favour of sex work? I deal with reality. In the present society it is necessary to sell ones labour in some form or another to survive. That does mean I support selling ones labour. Like drugs I think prohibition is not the answer. Decriminalization , regulation and rights for sex workers ( where male, female or trans) is what I want to see. I not in favour of my own liberation from exploitation in the way you say. Sex work is work in my view. Sex work covers high class escorts ( Belle du Jour) to trafficked women and drug addicts selling themselves for the next fix. So are you saying Belle du Jour success encourages trafficking and more sex crime?

The interesting bit of your post you do not expand on. The creation of a sex class. That sex work is part of the continued exploitation of all women whether they work in industry or not. This would also include pornography as well. It is possible to put forward an argument that the subordination of women under patriarchy precedes race and class. So the Marxist view that class relations are in the last instance the main thing is wrong. After all within different class and racial groups women are subordinate ( in general). This structuring of society is not biological or genetic but is socially constructed. So it is possible to argue that sex work and pornography play an important role in how all women in society are defined.

Managed to remember the Feminist theorist who takes this line. Catherine MacKinnon. Unusually for a radical feminist she engages with Marxism. She concentrates on legal theory and theory of equality. Has done work on making pornography illegal. To late for me to read it up again today. Not an easy read. Her work is not a rant but high theory. But the end of your post reminded me of it. I had forgotten.

Catherine MacKinnon
"Toward a feminist theory of the State" - Catherine MacKinnon


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## Athos (Dec 19, 2012)

fogbat said:


> And how come there are no Straight Pride marches?


It clashed with 'White History Week.'


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## Gramsci (Dec 19, 2012)

Article in Brixton Blog on the application


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## el-ahrairah (Dec 19, 2012)

so i passed this information on to a friend who deals with a local Violence Against Women charity, who are putting in an objection based on Lambeth's Women & Girls Protection Policy, an interestng document and one of the most forward thinking in the UK because it classifies prostitution as violence against women and recognises that the sex trade creates a risk towards women and girls unconnected to the trade (I believe the stats are referenced in this policy but as i'm at work i don't have a copy to hand to cite) - we suspect that the night time economy is more important to Lambeth than this policy but you never know.  i was also informed that the charity has had a number of tip-offs that a brothel is operating at that particular property.  make of that what you will.


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## RaverDrew (Dec 19, 2012)

I never had you down as a grass. Especially when based on gossip, rumours, tittle tattle, and nimbyism.


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## el-ahrairah (Dec 19, 2012)

i never had you down as a supporter of sexual violence against women.


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## RaverDrew (Dec 19, 2012)

el-ahrairah said:


> i never had you down as a supporter of sexual violence against women.



Any proof that's what's going on ? no... didn't think so.

Perhaps I'm being a grumpy fucker, but I've seen the other side of the coin, where there are plenty of women who work in venues such as this, who enjoy sex work and make a very decent living from it. They rely on having safe places to work from, the last thing they need is interfering busybodies making their lives difficult. The authorities will be well aware of what kind of activity goes on in these places, and try to keep a close eye out for the seedier illegal elements that can go with it. IME (I've been directly involved with helping illegally trafficked girls from the nastier venues get help) when you drive these places backstreet and underground, you make the problem a lot worse and harder to deal with.


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## Brixton Hatter (Dec 19, 2012)

Will there be naked dancing men?


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## TruXta (Dec 19, 2012)

Brixton Hatter said:


> Will there be naked dancing men?


What's the going rate?


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## el-ahrairah (Dec 19, 2012)

well, i agree with Lambeth's terms that prostitution is violence against women. and it has a knock on effect, it's violence against all women, not just those who are in prostitution. those who choose and enjoy sex work shouldn't do it because even if it doesn't effect them, it does effect the safety and security of other women. but in the end, whether its a brothel is actually quite important to this discussion.

because if it is already a brothel then the link is confirmed between stripping and sex work. you can pop in for a lap dance, stay for a blowy. The connection between stripping and sex work earlier queried is proved, at least in this one case. Very astute business plan.  and if Lambeth's stats are right, that makes this area more dangerous for all women.

Now I would like to state that I do not know if this property actually is a brothel. Merely that my contact confirmed there had been tip offs that this was the case. People give these tip offs so that Outreach Services can be made aware and get into contact offering health and exit support if desired and attempt to identify trafficked women, not so that working girls can be run out of town with pitchforks. I'm a busybody but I don't support those anti-prostitution methods that essentially punish the girls rather than the punters or society!


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## hassan (Dec 19, 2012)

el-ahrairah said:


> well, i agree with Lambeth's terms that prostitution is violence against women. and it has a knock on effect, it's violence against all women, not just those who are in prostitution. those who choose and enjoy sex work shouldn't do it because even if it doesn't effect them, it does effect the safety and security of other women. but in the end, whether its a brothel is actually quite important to this discussion.
> 
> because if it is already a brothel then the link is confirmed between stripping and sex work. you can pop in for a lap dance, stay for a blowy. The connection between stripping and sex work earlier queried is proved, at least in this one case. Very astute business plan.  and if Lambeth's stats are right, that makes this area more dangerous for all women.
> 
> Now I would like to state that I do not know if this property actually is a brothel. Merely that my contact confirmed there had been tip offs that this was the case. People give these tip offs so that Outreach Services can be made aware and get into contact offering health and exit support if desired and attempt to identify trafficked women, not so that working girls can be run out of town with pitchforks. I'm a busybody but I don't support those anti-prostitution methods that essentially punish the girls rather than the punters or society!



Wait how does one person choosing to go into that kind of work, make it more dangerous for women that don't?


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## TruXta (Dec 19, 2012)

hassan said:


> Wait how does one person choosing to go into that kind of work, make it more dangerous for women that don't?


There's a line of argument (contentious) that says that sex work increases sexual violence in the area it happens in.


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## RaverDrew (Dec 19, 2012)

el-ahrairah said:


> well, i agree with Lambeth's terms that prostitution is violence against women. and it has a knock on effect, it's violence against all women, not just those who are in prostitution. those who choose and enjoy sex work shouldn't do it because even if it doesn't effect them, it does effect the safety and security of other women. but in the end, whether its a brothel is actually quite important to this discussion.
> 
> because if it is already a brothel then the link is confirmed between stripping and sex work. you can pop in for a lap dance, stay for a blowy. The connection between stripping and sex work earlier queried is proved, at least in this one case. Very astute business plan. and if Lambeth's stats are right, that makes this area more dangerous for all women.
> 
> Now I would like to state that I do not know if this property actually is a brothel. Merely that my contact confirmed there had been tip offs that this was the case. People give these tip offs so that Outreach Services can be made aware and get into contact offering health and exit support if desired and attempt to identify trafficked women, not so that working girls can be run out of town with pitchforks. I'm a busybody but I don't support those anti-prostitution methods that essentially punish the girls rather than the punters or society!


 
I don't disagree with much of what you're saying, but remember though, a "tip-off" can also quite easily mean some yuppie hearing gossip that there's a lap-dancing club opening up nearby, that might affect the market value of their precious townhouse that they've just purchased for squillions of quid. They then kick up a fuss and make shit up that they know there is prostitution going on in order to get them shut down.


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## el-ahrairah (Dec 19, 2012)

hassan said:


> Wait how does one person choosing to go into that kind of work, make it more dangerous for women that don't?


 
because according to some stats, the presence of brothels and sex workers in an area make sexual assaults, rape, street harassment etc more common.

according to some theories as well, under a patriarchy the existence of a sex class embraced willingly by some counters the unwillingness of others to be treated in such a way, confirms the notion of all women as sexually available and creates a climate of tolerance towards sexist nonsense.


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## Frumious B. (Dec 19, 2012)

RaverDrew said:


> women who work in venues such as this, who enjoy sex work and make a very decent living from it.


 
Ah, the myth of the Happy Hooker. What a crock of self-serving, misogynist, cruel bullshit. The media love to perpetuate this nonsense, because titillation sells. But ask yourself what kind of people enjoy selling themselves for sex? Be honest. Imagine your mother/sister/daughter doing it. The answer is not happy, fulfilled, prosperous people, it's damaged people. Not liberal, free-thinking joyous spirits, but people who have been mentally and/or physically abused who have no sense of self-worth and cannot form a loving relationship. So instead of helping them, let's have them continue to sell themselves for sex and become more and more damaged.  So long as they make more than they would get in Tesco's, everything's peachy! It's proof that as a society we are no longer hung up about sex!


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## el-ahrairah (Dec 19, 2012)

RaverDrew said:


> I don't disagree with much of what you're saying, but remember though, a "tip-off" can also quite easily mean some yuppie hearing gossip that there's a lap-dancing club opening up nearby, that might affect the market value of their precious townhouse that they've just purchased for squillions of quid. They then kick up a fuss and make shit up that they know there is prostitution going on in order to get them shut down.


 
it could be, but to be honest, it's not likely that some yuppie contacted a violence against women charity to tip off their outreach services prior to the application being made public on the off chance that someone on urban would tell them about it and they in turn would then have "evidence" to help fight the lap dancing club!

thing is, some of these tip offs will be nonsense.  there's a chance this is.  i couldn't possibly know.


----------



## RaverDrew (Dec 19, 2012)

Frumious B. said:


> Ah, the myth of the Happy Hooker. What a crock of self-serving, misogynist, cruel bullshit. The media love to perpetuate this nonsense, because titillation sells. But ask yourself what kind of people enjoy selling themselves for sex? Be honest. Imagine your mother/sister/daughter doing it. The answer is not happy, fulfilled, prosperous people, it's damaged people. Not liberal, free-thinking joyous spirits, but people who have been mentally and/or physically abused who have no sense of self-worth and cannot form a loving relationship. So instead of helping them, let's have them continue to sell themselves for sex and become more and more damaged. So long as they make more than they would get in Tesco's, everything's peachy! It's proof that as a society we are no longer hung up about sex!


 
Thanks for that insight, yes, I do have very close family and friends who are involved/have been involved in the adult entertainment/sex work industry. I speak from experience. And yet despite this, I wont deny that there is a far nastier side to it all. In London/UK in particular however, there are plenty of women (even women who themselves identify as feminists) who choose to be involved within this industry, who are not the messed up casualties that need saving by white knights, which is often how they are portrayed by well-meaning, tunnel-vision "campaigners" etc.

Things are not always that black and white, or simple.


----------



## TruXta (Dec 19, 2012)

Frumious B. said:


> Ah, the myth of the Happy Hooker. What a crock of self-serving, misogynist, cruel bullshit. The media love to perpetuate this nonsense, because titillation sells. But ask yourself what kind of people enjoy selling themselves for sex? Be honest. Imagine your mother/sister/daughter doing it. The answer is not happy, fulfilled, prosperous people, it's damaged people. Not liberal, free-thinking joyous spirits, but people who have been mentally and/or physically abused who have no sense of self-worth and cannot form a loving relationship. So instead of helping them, let's have them continue to sell themselves for sex and become more and more damaged. So long as they make more than they would get in Tesco's, everything's peachy! It's proof that as a society we are no longer hung up about sex!


 
What a load of prejudiced reactionary shite. Ask some of the people on here who've done sex work if this is an accurate description of all sex workers. Fucking plonker.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Dec 19, 2012)

it has to be said, most of the liberals who think prostitution should be legalised and that it's empowerfulising haven't had much contact with the sex industry.  Drew at least is speaking from a position of knowing a few prostitutes as friends and because i know this i'm not going to make the same calls that FB has.

Also, this cropped up on my fb feed just today.  For every anecdote of the happy hooker there are stories like this http://scase.wordpress.com/


----------



## TruXta (Dec 19, 2012)

el-ahrairah said:


> it has to be said, most of the liberals who think prostitution should be legalised and that it's empowerfulising haven't had much contact with the sex industry. Drew at least is speaking from a position of knowing a few prostitutes as friends and because i know this i'm not going to make the same calls that FB has.
> 
> Also, this cropped up on my fb feed just today. For every anecdote of the happy hooker there are stories like this http://scase.wordpress.com/


The myth of the happy sex worker is indeed a myth. But so is the bilge served up by Frumious. The truth is that there's no one size fits all.


----------



## ShiftyBagLady (Dec 19, 2012)

You may well get some career sex workers for whom it is a choice, reasoned and rational and who arent severley affected by the realities of sex work. However most women would have found themselves pressured, if not forced, into it and you cannot deny that loathsome aspect of the industry. I would go so far as to say the success of the industry depends on such desperation since if the women truly were empowered by it they would be in power. 
The women in these clubs are employees and have no real power over their prices or conditions, they will be milked for all they are worth and discarded if they don't tow the line. It is a truly horrible business.

As I said earlier, locals will object and not just because of the house prices. I used to live down the road and I wouldn't want to be stumbling home from the tube at closing time because I'd think myself more likely to be hassled or followed and I'm sure I would not be alone in that feeling which is one of the knock on effects el-ahraiah mentioned.


----------



## Ol Nick (Dec 19, 2012)

Brixton Hatter said:


> Will there be naked dancing men?


In Vauxhall


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 19, 2012)

ShiftyBagLady said:


> You may well get some career sex workers for whom it is a choice, reasoned and rational and who arent severley affected by the realities of sex work. However most women would have found themselves pressured, if not forced, into it and you cannot deny that loathsome aspect of the industry. I would go so far as to say the success of the industry depends on such desperation since if the women truly were empowered by it they would be in power.
> The women in these clubs are employees and have no real power over their prices or conditions, they will be milked for all they are worth and discarded if they don't tow the line. It is a truly horrible business.
> 
> As I said earlier, locals will object and not just because of the house prices. I used to live down the road and I wouldn't want to be stumbling home from the tube at closing time because I'd think myself more likely to be hassled or followed and I'm sure I would not be alone in that feeling which is one of the knock on effects el-ahraiah mentioned.


 
If so many of these stippers and lapdancers are slaves in everything but name then, why aren't the police busting these places?

With that much slavery happening in London, surely even the police would notice at some point?


----------



## ShiftyBagLady (Dec 19, 2012)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> If so many of these stippers and lapdancers are slaves in everything but name then, why aren't the police busting these places?
> 
> With that much slavery happening in London, surely even the police would notice at some point?


At what point did I slavery? 
I imagine the police see such clubs as the lesser of two evils, the greater being prostitution/underground clubs or sex work with all of the dangers that go with them.


----------



## gaijingirl (Dec 19, 2012)

haven't followed the whole thread but wasn't there one on Brighton Terrace?  Is it gone?


----------



## Gramsci (Dec 19, 2012)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> If so many of these stippers and lapdancers are slaves in everything but name then, why aren't the police busting these places?
> 
> With that much slavery happening in London, surely even the police would notice at some point?


 
Good question. Trafficking for other types of work as well requires a lot of intelligence gathering and police time. This article criticises police heavy handed approach which did not deal with the issue of trafficked women.




> "The information I have gathered … demonstrates that police have been proactively raiding sex establishments without complaint nor significant intelligence that exploitation is taking place," writes Boff in the report.
> He adds that the attitude of some sections of the Metropolitan police to policing sex trafficking "appeared to be based on little or no evidence".


----------



## Gramsci (Dec 19, 2012)

ShiftyBagLady said:


> At what point did I slavery?
> I imagine the police see such clubs as the lesser of two evils, the greater being prostitution/underground clubs or sex work with all of the dangers that go with them.


 
you used the words "pressurised" and "forced". Any women who does sex work under those conditions would count as modern day slavery:



> In 2000, an internationally agreed upon definition of trafficking was developed as part of the UN Convention Against Transnational Organized Crime and more specifically its Protocol to Prevent, Suppress and Punish Trafficking in Persons, Especially Women and Children. In this Protocol, “Trafficking in persons (is defined as) the recruitment, transportation, transfer, harboring or receipt of persons, by means of the threat or use of force or other forms of coercion, of abduction, of fraud, of deception, of the abuse of power or of a position of vulnerability or of the giving or receiving of payments or benefits to achieve the consent of a person having control over another person, for the purpose of exploitation. Exploitation includes, at a minimum, the exploitation of the prostitution of others or other forms of sexual exploitation, forced labor or services, slavery or practices similar to slavery, servitude or the removal of organs.”


----------



## Gramsci (Dec 19, 2012)

el-ahrairah said:


> it has to be said, most of the liberals who think prostitution should be legalised and that it's empowerfulising haven't had much contact with the sex industry. /


 
Wrong. Most liberals, as you call them, who think sex work should be decriminalised or legalised do so because to make it safer for the women who do it. Not because they think its empowering. 

BTW considering u say Drew speaks from experience does what he say make you think of changing your position?


----------



## ShiftyBagLady (Dec 19, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> you used the words "pressurised" and "forced".


I said pressured, if not forced. Meaning if they were not overtly forced they may be or feel pressured into sex work. 
Those may be financial pressures or pressures from another person. I had financial pressure in mind when i wrote it since I imagine that some women see it as a means of survival and my strongest objection to dancing and sex work as a whole is that the body and sex is viewed as a saleable commodity.


----------



## Gramsci (Dec 19, 2012)

ShiftyBagLady said:


> I said pressured, if not forced. Meaning if they were not overtly forced they may be or feel pressured into sex work.
> Those may be financial pressures or pressures from another person. I had financial pressure in mind when i wrote it since I imagine that some women see it as a means of survival and my strongest objection to dancing and sex work as a whole is that the body and sex is viewed as a saleable commodity.


 
It looks to me from the definition of modern slavery that doing sex work under financial pressure from another would count as modern day slavery. 

If there is an issue here its that the Police aren't up to dealing with it.


----------



## ShiftyBagLady (Dec 19, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> It looks to me from the definition of modern slavery that doing sex work under financial pressure from another would count as modern day slavery.
> 
> If there is an issue here its that the Police aren't up to dealing with it.


I did not say financial pressure from another.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 19, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> Good question. Trafficking for other types of work as well requires a lot of intelligence gathering and police time. This article criticises police heavy handed approach which did not deal with the issue of trafficked women.


 
It just seems to be common knowledge on the boards that most of the women in these places are there against their will. Crime on that scale doesn't usually go unnoticed.


----------



## Gramsci (Dec 19, 2012)

el-ahrairah said:


> so i passed this information on to a friend who deals with a local Violence Against Women charity, who are putting in an objection based on Lambeth's Women & Girls Protection Policy, an interestng document and one of the most forward thinking in the UK because it classifies prostitution as violence against women and recognises that the sex trade creates a risk towards women and girls unconnected to the trade


 
Lambeth policy here.


----------



## Gramsci (Dec 19, 2012)

ShiftyBagLady said:


> I did not say financial pressure from another.


 



> You may well get some career sex workers for whom it is a choice, reasoned and rational and who arent severley affected by the realities of sex work. However most women would have found themselves pressured, if not forced, into it and you cannot deny that loathsome aspect of the industry. I would go so far as to say the success of the industry depends on such desperation since if the women truly were empowered by it they would be in power.
> The women in these clubs are employees and have no real power over their prices or conditions, they will be milked for all they are worth and discarded if they don't tow the line. It is a truly horrible business.


 
The underlined bit is financial pressure to keep ones job. 

I was trying to define what counts as modern slavery which is illegal. As several posters have said that a lap dancing bars help to encourage trafficking.


----------



## ShiftyBagLady (Dec 19, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> The underlined bit is financial pressure to keep ones job.
> .


That's not the post you quoted in post #71, to which I was responding. I'm not entirely sure what you're getting at.

By that definition the whole of society is enslaved by financial pressure to keep one's job. Would you call that slavery? I wouldn't, slavery implies force. Frankly, I'm not interested in a semantic debate over the UN's definition of slavery, not tonight.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 19, 2012)

Frumious B. said:


> Ah, the myth of the Happy Hooker. What a crock of self-serving, misogynist, cruel bullshit. The media love to perpetuate this nonsense, because titillation sells. But ask yourself what kind of people enjoy selling themselves for sex? Be honest. Imagine your mother/sister/daughter doing it. The answer is not happy, fulfilled, prosperous people, it's damaged people. Not liberal, free-thinking joyous spirits, but people who have been mentally and/or physically abused who have no sense of self-worth and cannot form a loving relationship. So instead of helping them, let's have them continue to sell themselves for sex and become more and more damaged. So long as they make more than they would get in Tesco's, everything's peachy! It's proof that as a society we are no longer hung up about sex!


 
While I agree with some of your sentiments, let's be absolutely clear: *sentiments* are exactly what they are - emotionally-loaded opinions.
You discount any possibility that a sex worker might be at peace with their situation, but you don't supply any evidence to justify such discounting.
You make emotional and moral appeals that have nothing to do with addressing the issue at hand.
You categorise all sex workers as people who've been physucally and mentally abused, yet don't substantiate this (frankly unsubstantiatable) claim.

Don't be surprised if people tell you to stick your opinions!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 19, 2012)

el-ahrairah said:


> it has to be said, most of the liberals who think prostitution should be legalised and that it's empowerfulising haven't had much contact with the sex industry. Drew at least is speaking from a position of knowing a few prostitutes as friends and because i know this i'm not going to make the same calls that FB has.
> 
> Also, this cropped up on my fb feed just today. For every anecdote of the happy hooker there are stories like this http://scase.wordpress.com/


 
I agree with FB that the "Happy Hooker" is pretty much a myth, but that doesn't, of course, mean that because of that *all* sex workers are economically coerced and/or have serious psychological issues about themselves due to years of physical and mental abuse. That's just as pat as the Happy Hooker myth. Truth is, there's probably a spectrum of reasons why women undertake sex work, and we need to know that spectrum of reasons before making a judgement one way or the other about the work *or* the women.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 19, 2012)

TruXta said:


> The myth of the happy sex worker is indeed a myth. But so is the bilge served up by Frumious. The truth is that there's no one size fits all.


 
Quite


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 19, 2012)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> It just seems to be common knowledge on the boards that most of the women in these places are there against their will. Crime on that scale doesn't usually go unnoticed.


 
There's also perhaps an element of paternalistic "the poor dears, they're so traumatised that they don't know what's good for them".
Shades of the sort of "charity" the Victorians gave to sex workers!


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 19, 2012)

if people are right that most sex workers are there against their will, then they're only joining a lot of the rest of us, who would rather do something more productive and enjoyable with our time than go to work.


----------



## stuff_it (Dec 19, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> if people are right that most sex workers are there against their will, then they're only joining a lot of the rest of us, who would rather do something more productive and enjoyable with our time than go to work.


I do think that the exploitation of sex workers is being confused with the exploitation of all employees on this thread. There aren't any campaigns to prevent pubs opening altogether because they exploit their workforce by paying them wages and turning a profit.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 19, 2012)

stuff_it said:


> I do think that the exploitation of sex workers is being confused with the exploitation of all employees on this thread. There aren't any campaigns to prevent pubs opening altogether because they exploit their workforce by paying them wages and turning a profit.


i don't think there's a great problem with pubs opening.


----------



## Gramsci (Dec 19, 2012)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> It just seems to be common knowledge on the boards that most of the women in these places are there against their will. Crime on that scale doesn't usually go unnoticed.


 
 It is starting to look like to me is that there is a moral panic about trafficking. That lap dancing clubs help to increase it is an argument that is used against them when the apply for a license.

In Victorian period there was media inspired panic about the "White Slave Trade". The linked article also goes onto show how the portrayal of trafficking in the media now is not that different. 

The article concludes:





> Because the media, the police, the government and – sadly – a number of campaigns have focused so narrowly on kidnap and involuntary prostitution, migrant women working in the sex trade can find themselves unable to access services when their human rights have been abused. As an example: consider a woman who willingly enters the UK sex trade, but finds that she is forced to hand over all her earnings to her pimp, has no ability to refuse customers and is prevented from leaving. That is slavery, whether she comes from Thailand, Moldova or Bromley.
> By conjuring a moral panic based on a discourse of innocence, border violations and kidnap, the media, government and police fail to engage with the risks and problems surrounding ‘domestic’ prostitution. This means that many women working in prostitution continue to be failed by a State that does not offer them protection


----------



## stuff_it (Dec 19, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> i don't think there's a great problem with pubs opening.


Yes but the same people on this thread seem to be saying that the strippers are being exploited by their bosses, but then using the normal employer/employee relationship as proof of this - in which case anyone who is lucky enough to be in work is being exploited. 

Also there is a big difference between 'chained to a radiator and force-fed smack in a foreign country' against their will and 'would rather be doing something else but the rent needs paying' against their will.


----------



## cesare (Dec 19, 2012)

Stuff-it, all labour is exploitation of those who labour. Otherwise there would be no profit (or the profits would be redistributed to those whose labour produced the profit).


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 19, 2012)

stuff_it said:


> Yes but the same people on this thread seem to be saying that the strippers are being exploited by their bosses, but then using the normal employer/employee relationship as proof of this - in which case anyone who is lucky enough to be in work is being exploited.
> 
> Also there is a big difference between 'chained to a radiator and force-fed smack in a foreign country' against their will and 'would rather be doing something else but the rent needs paying' against their will.


there's more of a problem with pubs closing frankly.


----------



## stuff_it (Dec 19, 2012)

cesare said:


> Stuff-it, all labour is exploitation of those who labour. Otherwise there would be no profit (or the profits would be redistributed to those whose labour produced the profit).


Yes but I don't think conflating the exploitation of workers in general with the exploitation of trafficked women is helpful in this instance.


----------



## cesare (Dec 19, 2012)

stuff_it said:


> Yes but I don't think conflating the exploitation of workers in general with the exploitation of trafficked women is helpful in this instance.


There's no conflation with the observation that *all* labour is exploitation. Where people go after that with their opinions about type and degree of exploitation is up to them.


----------



## TruXta (Dec 19, 2012)

cesare said:


> Stuff-it, all labour is exploitation of those who labour. Otherwise there would be no profit (or the profits would be redistributed to those whose labour produced the profit).


Oi, this is the Brixton forum, not P&P. No agit-prop please


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 19, 2012)

stuff_it said:


> Yes but I don't think conflating the exploitation of workers in general with the exploitation of trafficked women is helpful in this instance.


 
I wonder how many people on the boards have ever known a woman who has worked as a prostitute or other type of sex trade worker?

For all you who have known someone like that: how many of them were 'trafficked'?


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 19, 2012)

none of them


----------



## stuff_it (Dec 19, 2012)

None.


----------



## Gramsci (Dec 19, 2012)

el-ahrairah said:


> so i passed this information on to a friend who deals with a local Violence Against Women charity, who are putting in an objection based on Lambeth's Women & Girls Protection Policy, an interestng document and one of the most forward thinking in the UK because it classifies prostitution as violence against women and recognises that the sex trade creates a risk towards women and girls unconnected to the trade (I believe the stats are referenced in this policy but as i'm at work i don't have a copy to hand to cite) - we suspect that the night time economy is more important to Lambeth than this policy but you never know. i was also informed that the charity has had a number of tip-offs that a brothel is operating at that particular property. make of that what you will.


 
Well I looked up the policy The relevant pages are 23 and 74. Im assuming this is Council policy?

Definition of prostitution page 15:




> This Strategy commits Lambeth to a new approach to how we address prostitution.
> We are clear that prostitution is male violence and one form of commercial sexual
> exploitation. Acceptance of prostitution is one of a cluster of harmful attitudes that
> encourage and justify VAWG.


 
Page 74:




> The majority of women involved in prostitution are residents of this borough who find
> themselves socially excluded and unable to participate in the life of the borough.
> Their views are not heard and their needs are not addressed. This Partnership is
> determined to take a proactive and radical approach to women involved in
> ...


 



> Violence, experience of abuse, homelessness, poverty and drugs are at the root of
> street prostitution in Lambeth. The Partnership absolutely rejects the view of
> prostitution as work, which merely requires legalising and regulating. The
> Partnership absolutely rejects the argument that prostitution is a civil right – no
> woman wants the right to be sexually exploited, abused and demeaned.


 

The doc does concentrate on street prostitution but says it wants to extend this to off street prostitution. So its definition is the same for both.

It says the voices of women who are sex workers is not heard but the doc does not give any of there opinions so I do not know if they were consulted or co wrote this document.

So if a woman who works in the sex industry wants more protection ( regulation) under this policy they will not get it. The will get help if they want out.

Looks like the idea is to arrest punters not the street sex workers. Also to not define street sex workers under ASBO legislation. 

How sex work is defined leads to radically different policies.

In other parts of country another policy was tried. That was areas of city where street sex workers could go without fear of arrest.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 19, 2012)

> We are clear that prostitution is male violence and one form of commercial sexual
> exploitation.


 
Does that include male prostitutes who service a male clientele?


----------



## TruXta (Dec 19, 2012)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> Does that include male prostitutes who service a male clientele?


It usually does yes. In theory at least.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 20, 2012)

TruXta said:


> It usually does yes. In theory at least.


 
How about women hiring male prostitutes?


----------



## Greebo (Dec 20, 2012)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> Does that include male prostitutes who service a male clientele?


Of course.


----------



## Gramsci (Dec 20, 2012)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> I wonder how many people on the boards have ever known a woman who has worked as a prostitute or other type of sex trade worker?
> 
> For all you who have known someone like that: how many of them were 'trafficked'?


 
Used to get them in a cafe I used in Soho. Were they trafficked? I do not know. I do not always pry into peoples private affairs. In the Cafe its was known they worked in the local brothels. No one bothered them. They certainly did not talk about it. A lot of them in Soho seem to be East European. 

Westminster Council/ police every now and then tries to "clean" Soho up an close buildings used a brothels. At one point the local vicar opposed this. The brothels had been open for years and the women who worked in them had no where else to work safely. So prostitution is not a clear cut issue imo.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 20, 2012)

What's the verdict on males strippers?


----------



## lang rabbie (Dec 20, 2012)

Just tweeted by @LBLDemocracy



> The application for Sexual Entertainment Venue Licence at Max 2 #Oval ward has been refused.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 20, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> Used to get them in a cafe I used in Soho. Were they trafficked? I do not know..


The question wasn't whether or not you've ever observed a prostitute  sitting in a cafe: it was whether or not you knew any.


----------



## Greebo (Dec 20, 2012)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> How about women hiring male prostitutes?


Abuse of power comes into it, but in a patriarchal society women exploiting men for sex is AFAIK the exception rather than the norm.


----------



## RaverDrew (Dec 20, 2012)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> I wonder how many people on the boards have ever known a woman who has worked as a prostitute or other type of sex trade worker?
> 
> For all you who have known someone like that: how many of them were 'trafficked'?


 
A very small minority, but it is an increasing problem in London ime. They're generally hated by other sex workers for driving prices down, and are often grassed up very quickly.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 20, 2012)

Greebo said:


> Abuse of power comes into it, but in a patriarchal society women exploiting men for sex is AFAIK the exception rather than the norm.


 
Not a question about exceptions or norms: it happens. So, does this apply to that situation?



> We are clear that prostitution is male violence and one form of commercial sexual
> exploitation.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 20, 2012)

It happens enough that they came up with the word 'gigolo' for it. A variation of it is fairly common in places like the Caribbean - women 'of a certain age' with money, paying for the company of younger, attractive local men.


----------



## Gramsci (Dec 20, 2012)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> The question wasn't whether or not you've ever observed a prostitute sitting in a cafe: it was whether or not you knew any.


 
You did say ever known. So I took that as meaning anything from knowing well to a bit of banter with some in a cafe.


----------



## Greebo (Dec 20, 2012)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> Not a question about exceptions or norms: it happens. So, does this apply to that situation?


I would agree that it is violence, given the extent of the objectification, and given that those men wouldn't choose to do what they do with all of their female clients if they weren't paid for it.


----------



## RaverDrew (Dec 20, 2012)

I don't really see what any of this has to do with a legitimate licensed strip club that's opening up in Kennington.


----------



## Gramsci (Dec 20, 2012)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> Does that include male prostitutes who service a male clientele?


 
Yes it does according to page 55 of the policy doc




> . Ensure that men who are experiencing or who have experienced domestic violence/SV/FM/HBV/prostitution/trafficking are provided with an appropriate specialist
> services


 




> VAWG hub delivering a service to men from an alternative venue.
> Referral map for male victims developed to include information about signposting to pan London specialist services
> 
> Improved and more effective response to male victims Improved awareness of men as
> victims


----------



## Gramsci (Dec 20, 2012)

RaverDrew said:


> I don't really see what any of this has to do with a legitimate licensed strip club that's opening up in Kennington.


 
Looked back and it was el-ahrairah who said in post #45



> so i passed this information on to a friend who deals with a local Violence Against Women charity, who are putting in an objection based on Lambeth's Women & Girls Protection Policy


 
So thats what got me to look up the actual document and what it says.

The policy looks at sex work as not work but a form of violence against woman



> We are clear that prostitution is male violence and one form of commercial sexual exploitation. Acceptance of prostitution is one of a cluster of harmful attitudes that encourage and justify VAWG.


 
The doc does use phrases like "one form" and "cluster" so under this policy u might argue that the use that is sought for the premises will promote "harmful attitudes" that encourage VAWG.



I do not know what there actual objection stated.

Lang Rabbie might know. He is the expert of the Lambeth website.


----------



## RaverDrew (Dec 20, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> Looked back and it was el-ahrairah who said in post #45
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
I meant more with the tangent the thread had taken, and the prostitution somehow being conflated.


----------



## Gramsci (Dec 20, 2012)

RaverDrew said:


> I meant more with the tangent the thread had taken, and the prostitution somehow being conflated.


 
I agree with you. But some posters here see lap dancing bars as little different to prostitution.


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 20, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> Yes it does according to page 55 of the policy doc


 
How many pages is that policy, anyway?


----------



## ShiftyBagLady (Dec 20, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> I agree with you. But some posters here see lap dancing bars as little different to prostitution.


Well hang on a minute, it was you who brought the general sex work aspect into the discussion by mentioning Belle De Jour. Plus, there was a suggestion that this seemingly legitimate business may have been operating as a brothel which would ad another dimension to the discussion. That's why the scope of discussion widened to include prostitution not because posters are so ignorant or reactionary as to conflate the two.


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## DRINK? (Dec 20, 2012)

Frumious B. said:


> Ah, the myth of the Happy Hooker. What a crock of self-serving, misogynist, cruel bullshit. The media love to perpetuate this nonsense, because titillation sells. But ask yourself what kind of people enjoy selling themselves for sex? Be honest. Imagine your mother/sister/daughter doing it. The answer is not happy, fulfilled, prosperous people, it's damaged people. Not liberal, free-thinking joyous spirits, but people who have been mentally and/or physically abused who have no sense of self-worth and cannot form a loving relationship. So instead of helping them, let's have them continue to sell themselves for sex and become more and more damaged.  So long as they make more than they would get in Tesco's, everything's peachy! It's proof that as a society we are no longer hung up about sex!




From mates working in the industry this is just absolute horse shit


----------



## Frumious B. (Dec 20, 2012)

DRINK? said:


> From mates working in the industry this is just absolute horse shit


Mates who are prostitutes, or mates who are dancers? There is a difference. My point was about happy hookers.



ViolentPanda said:


> While I agree with some of your sentiments, let's be absolutely clear:*sentiments* are exactly what they are - emotionally-loaded opinions.
> You discount any possibility that a sex worker might be at peace with their situation, but you don't supply any evidence to justify such discounting.
> You make emotional and moral appeals that have nothing to do with addressing the issue at hand.
> You categorise all sex workers as people who've been physucally and mentally abused, yet don't substantiate this (frankly unsubstantiatable) claim.
> ...


 
Of course I'm emotional, how can this not be an emotional subject?

I'm well aware that we're trading opinions here, not facts.  Opinions are pretty much all we've got - if you study the research properly a lot of it is highly dubious. And when it's directly contradicted by another bit of research a year or two later you learn you were right not to trust it.

To be fair to the researchers it must be very hard to get a representative sample, because the women who are suffering don't talk as much as the ones who are claiming to be at peace with the job. And many of the ones claiming to be at peace with it later have a breakdown or a serious drug abuse problem. (I'll bet any money that the people here claiming to have friends who enjoy being prostitutes are deluded, either by themselves or their friends, or both.)

The people funding the research or giving quotes about it to the papers often have their own agenda, because they want money for more research, or they're writing a book, or they're retired and want to come to terms with their past life. The English Collective of Prostitutes - supposedly 'at peace' with the nature of their work - are a particularly questionable source. They never fail in TV interviews to come across as sad, bitter, hard-bitten people who've lost the plot.

It's the same story with women in porn - they're a good research sample because they're easier to track, being semi-public figures. They start out being pleased with the money (so much better than Wal-Mart!) but pretty soon it's drug abuse, divorce, kids taken into custody, etc. Most of them do prostitution on the side - there's little difference between porn and prostitution these days. Internet piracy has driven the pay down so much that most women will only make a handful of films before they need 'privates' to supplement their income.


----------



## DRINK? (Dec 20, 2012)

Both as it goes, I used to dabble myself as a student


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## Gramsci (Dec 20, 2012)

ShiftyBagLady said:


> Well hang on a minute, it was you who brought the general sex work aspect into the discussion by mentioning Belle De Jour. Plus, there was a suggestion that this seemingly legitimate business may have been operating as a brothel which would ad another dimension to the discussion. That's why the scope of discussion widened to include prostitution not because posters are so ignorant or reactionary as to conflate the two.


 
Wrong

I was looking into Mrs Magpie post #7. To see if there was anything in it.

Also I suggest u go back and look at #33 #39 #45 #51 for starters


----------



## Gramsci (Dec 20, 2012)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> How many pages is that policy, anyway?


 
To many. Not your fault u missed the bit I saw. I saw it by accident to be honest and remembered it when u posted up. 

Typical Council policy in the turgid way it is written and put together. 

Also noticed that the people consulted are overwhelmingly workers in that area not possible users of services or those who will be affected by this policy as victims. In fact the whole doc constructs a particular service user.


----------



## Frumious B. (Dec 20, 2012)

lang rabbie said:


> Just tweeted by @LBLDemocracy


No surprise, the committee rejects whatever the police want them to. The real test will be when the licensee appeals it to the magistrates.


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## RaverDrew (Dec 20, 2012)

Frumious B. said:


> No surprise, *the committee rejects whatever the police want them to.* The real test will be when the licensee appeals it to the magistrates.


 
O RLY ???


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## Frumious B. (Dec 20, 2012)

Yes, really. The police withdrew their objection. Meaning that there was no objection. Try reading your own post. 

The committee is obliged to accept any application to which there are no objections.


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## ajdown (Dec 20, 2012)

Bit curious as to why granting an alcohol license to a Tesco is a problem when the building used to be a pub and, presumably, sold alcohol occasionally?


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## Brixton Hatter (Dec 20, 2012)

ajdown said:


> Bit curious as to why granting an alcohol license to a Tesco is a problem when the building used to be a pub and, presumably, sold alcohol occasionally?


I think the lack of publicity about the application for an alcohol licence is the problem. It makes the Council look like they are in bed with Tesco.


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## Mrs Magpie (Dec 20, 2012)

Brixton Hatter said:


> I think the lack of publicity about the application for an alcohol licence is the problem. It makes the Council look like they are in bed with Tesco.


Which they are, whoring away with abandon.


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## ajdown (Dec 20, 2012)

I can understand the lack of publicity being a concern, yes, but I'm not sure that anyone could object on the grounds that alcohol is being sold from a former pub...


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## Brixton Hatter (Dec 20, 2012)

ajdown said:


> I can understand the lack of publicity being a concern, yes, but I'm not sure that anyone could object on the grounds that alcohol is being sold from a former pub...


People object to the fact that Tesco will be selling it.


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## ShiftyBagLady (Dec 20, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> Wrong
> 
> I was looking into Mrs Magpie post #7. To see if there was anything in it.
> 
> Also I suggest u go back and look at #33 #39 #45 #51 for starters


But it was at that point, the point that this "interesting topic" was introduced that the discussion took a turn away from the specifics of the license application and lap dancing towards broader discussion of the sex industry.
You're right, it is an interesting topic but wrong to suggest that posters equate lap dancing with prostitution.


----------



## RaverDrew (Dec 20, 2012)

ajdown said:


> I can understand the lack of publicity being a concern, yes, but I'm not sure that anyone could object on the grounds that alcohol is being sold from a former pub...


 
I'm sure the other independent off licences on the hill will be thrilled to hear that Tesco are allowed to sell alcohol, and even more thrilled that they weren't notified on how to object to this. 

It's disgusting that Tesco have been allowed to completely take the piss every step of the way with regards to planning processes etc.

If you fail to see what is fundamentally wrong about this, then have a word with yourself ajdown.


----------



## Winot (Dec 20, 2012)

You're conflating a number of different issues. AJ's making a narrower point, which is a reasonable one.


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## ajdown (Dec 20, 2012)

It was more to the point of "OMGWTFBBQ they got an alcohol license" that seemed to be the big problem - not so much about whether proper process was followed or not.

If proper process was not followed, fine, object, I have no problem with that, but there just seems to be a lot of "it's another Tesco/Sainsburys/big name supermarket and we don't need another" because there's one less than 20 miles away".

Why is the same hatred applied to big-name supermarkets not visible when another off license/corner shop/fried chicken shop/nail bar/mobile phone shop opens a short distance from a similar shop?


----------



## TruXta (Dec 20, 2012)

ajdown said:


> It was more to the point of "OMGWTFBBQ they got an alcohol license" that seemed to be the big problem - not so much about whether proper process was followed or not.
> 
> If proper process was not followed, fine, object, I have no problem with that, but there just seems to be a lot of "it's another Tesco/Sainsburys/big name supermarket and we don't need another" because there's one less than 20 miles away".
> 
> Why is the same hatred applied to big-name supermarkets not visible when another off license/corner shop/fried chicken shop/nail bar/mobile phone shop opens a short distance from a similar shop?


Why is this even an appropriate topic for this thread?


----------



## Manter (Dec 20, 2012)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Which they are, whoring away with abandon.


Slight aside- at the Rec meeting, lib peck got all snotty about the idea the council were being manipulated by business and said they were no pushover and negotiated as equals. I snorted inelegantly with laughter when I heard that (and a couple of people I have mentioned it to have also snorted)- I think lambeth's issue is they are genuinely arrogant (and stupid) enough to believe that local politicians are negotiating on equal terms with a multi-billion pound multi-national's highly paid team of experts who spend all day every day playing games with planning regulations all round the country. I genuinely don't believe they are in cahoots, I believe Lambeth are totally out of their depth and being manipulated. And that applies to tesco, barratt homes, sex clubs and all sorts.
Which is my rant for the evening


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 20, 2012)

Frumious B. said:


> Of course I'm emotional, how can this not be an emotional subject?


 
You're conflating the emotionality around the subject with your own emotional response. They're not the same thing



> I'm well aware that we're trading opinions here, not facts. Opinions are pretty much all we've got - if you study the research properly a lot of it is highly dubious. And when it's directly contradicted by another bit of research a year or two later you learn you were right not to trust it.


 
A couple of problems there:
1) The dubiousness or not of the research shouldn't be in what it says, after all a research paper is merely *one* interpretation of the data that informed the research, not the be-all and end-all. Different academics will draw different conclusions from exactly the same data.
2) It's not about trust, it's about drawing conclusions from the data. You're not supposed to (as the tabloids appear to believe) read a paper or other research and take on board only the author's perspective, you're supposed to draw your own conclusions in line with the data. Otherwise, all you're doing is rote-learning and parroting someone elses' perspective, when even your own experience might not reflect that perspective.



> To be fair to the researchers it must be very hard to get a representative sample, because the women who are suffering don't talk as much as the ones who are claiming to be at peace with the job.


 
You're making an assumption there. What's it based on?



> And many of the ones claiming to be at peace with it later have a breakdown or a serious drug abuse problem. (I'll bet any money that the people here claiming to have friends who enjoy being prostitutes are deluded, either by themselves or their friends, or both.)


 
Not to be unkind, but who's interested in what you're prepared to bet on? It's immaterial to what's been said. It's merely you saying something that supports your own opinion, without *actually* supporting it with anything remotely related to actual data.




> The people funding the research or giving quotes about it to the papers often have their own agenda, because they want money for more research, or they're writing a book, or they're retired and want to come to terms with their past life.


 
Yes, everyone has an agenda. The fact remains that we're all well aware of that, so are able to "make allowances" for bias when looking at the data.



> The English Collective of Prostitutes - supposedly 'at peace' with the nature of their work - are a particularly questionable source. They never fail in TV interviews to come across as sad, bitter, hard-bitten people who've lost the plot.


 
ECoP - what was it someone said about them? (to paraphrase) "Not English, not a collective, and most of its' members aren't prostitutes, they're followers of a couple of Yank feminists".



> It's the same story with women in porn - they're a good research sample because they're easier to track, being semi-public figures. They start out being pleased with the money (so much better than Wal-Mart!) but pretty soon it's drug abuse, divorce, kids taken into custody, etc. Most of them do prostitution on the side - there's little difference between porn and prostitution these days. Internet piracy has driven the pay down so much that most women will only make a handful of films before they need 'privates' to supplement their income.


 
Thanks for another post filled with unsupported opinion!


----------



## Gramsci (Dec 21, 2012)

ShiftyBagLady said:


> But it was at that point, the point that this "interesting topic" was introduced that the discussion took a turn away from the specifics of the license application and lap dancing towards broader discussion of the sex industry.
> You're right, it is an interesting topic but wrong to suggest that posters equate lap dancing with prostitution.


 
Actually it was not. I linked Belle du Jour article as she mentioned Lap Dancing.



> For instance, one chapter does a brilliant demolition job on a report claiming to show that the introduction of lap-dancing clubs in Camden, London, produced a 50% increase in sexual assaults in the area, a report produced by people who want all such clubs closed. Magnanti shows that, on the contrary, all the available evidence for Britain points to a sharpfall in rape rates in areas that introduce lap-dancing clubs. Her clear presentation of the statistical evidence, and explanation of what is needed to prove a social trend, here and in other chapters, could be a model for science teachers.


 
It was el-ahrairah who took exception to my view in post #39 which led to a more general discussion of the sex industry. And I think its fine to do that. Its all one industry that sells sex in one way or another. 

Its not that some posters equate lap dancing with prostitution its that they see it as part of the objectification of women that feeds into encouraging tolerance of prostitution.

As el- ahrairah post one charity that he/she knows who are involved in dealing with violence against women put in an objection to this license. I assume on that basis.

I have checked the license meeting but the minutes are not up. So do not know why the application was turned down. There was no police opposition or officer opposition:




> The business is located in an area that have a number of commercial businesses as
> described above many of which are food-led and drink led.
> The Police Licensing Team has not had cause for complaint in relation to the use
> of the premises, or by the owner and DPS. The police have made frequent
> ...


 
(page 2 of report)


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## Gramsci (Dec 21, 2012)

Looking at the application more fully. ( and I think someone has already mentioned this)




> 9. Conclusion
> For the continuous period the applicant has been the owner of the building since
> circa 2000. The premises has operated as licensed premises throughout. Since
> circa 2006 an application for variation was granted by the London Borough
> ...


 
So this application is under the new rules on licensing venues that provide lap dancing. Seems that the premises has been doing this under old rules without any problems in the area.

So the fact that its been turned down has nothing really to do with its impact on area. If there was one it would have happened by now.

Also the written application doc states that the applicant is aware the Council is considering another sex establishment license for a gay clientele. Does not say where. Wonder how that is going.


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## Mrs Magpie (Dec 21, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> Also the written application doc states that the applicant is aware the Council is considering another sex establishment license for a gay clientele. Does not say where. Wonder how that is going.


Unfortunately, that often brings violent homophobes crawling out from under their stones. There have been serious attacks on gay men leaving that gay spa in Streatham.


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## Frumious B. (Dec 21, 2012)

Interesting that the Police didn't oppose the application. What does this tell us? That they've looked at the research about clubs creating violence towards women, and compared it with Oval crime stats and decided it's not an issue? Or that they don't care/can't be arsed/have other fish to fry? Is there anyone here who was at the meeting and put the violence question to them?  

Seems a bit lopsided that the Police didn't oppose the sex establishment licence, but they did oppose the other two things on the agenda, Don's Hut in Clapham and House of Bottles. Did the committee turn down those two?


----------



## Gramsci (Dec 21, 2012)

Frumious B. said:


> Interesting that the Police didn't oppose the application. What does this tell us? That they've looked at the research about clubs creating violence towards women, and compared it with Oval crime stats and decided it's not an issue? Or that they don't care/can't be arsed/have other fish to fry? Is there anyone here who was at the meeting and put the violence question to them?
> 
> Seems a bit lopsided that the Police didn't oppose the sex establishment licence, but they did oppose the other two things on the agenda, Don's Hut in Clapham and House of Bottles. Did the committee turn down those two?


 
The police did not oppose the sex establishmant license as the venue had been operating for some time with no problems. Also a lot of conditions were put on the venue.


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## Frumious B. (Dec 21, 2012)

Didn't the violence issue come up? Surely in a 5 hour meeting it was given an airing?


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## el-ahrairah (Dec 21, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> Actually it was not. I linked Belle du Jour article as she mentioned Lap Dancing.
> 
> 
> 
> It was el-ahrairah who took exception to my view in post #39 which led to a more general discussion of the sex industry. And I think its fine to do that. Its all one industry that sells sex in one way or another.


 
The writer quoted here Catherine Hakim is a pro-prostitution type who wrote a book called Honey Money in which she claims that prostitution comes from women empowering themselves due to their "erotic capital".  She is not a Marxist or a Feminist by most people's definition and as such is just another capitalist apologist by my standards.  It is not a neutral review.

As an aside I wish the left would stop using Brooke Magenti as an example - it's like saying that capitalism doesn't exploit because look Richard Branson is rich and happy.   Yes, it works for some but that is not the general experience of the whole.


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## el-ahrairah (Dec 21, 2012)

Frumious B. said:


> Didn't the violence issue come up? Surely in a 5 hour meeting it was given an airing?


 
Only an hour and a bit of the meeting was about the lap dancing club, as i understand it.  I understand that the primary arguments were to do with the standard night-time economy concerns; i understand also that a letter was passed to council reps outlining how a lap dancing venue could be in collasion with the VAWG policy quoted by Gramsci above.  Beyond that your correspondent knoweth not.


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## hassan (Dec 21, 2012)

If there is nothing illegal going on in the strip club then I don't see the problem. Just because you see something as "morally" wrong doesn't mean the rest of the world has to think that too. I personally don't see the appeal of a strip club, especially if you are single. You can just watch porn, same thing in my eyes. Reading what people have mentioned about sex crime increasing in the area of a strip club or the like, the actual conclusion seems questionable, no?


----------



## Frumious B. (Dec 21, 2012)

hassan said:


> If there is nothing illegal going on in the strip club then I don't see the problem. Just because you see something as "morally" wrong doesn't mean the rest of the world has to think that too. I personally don't see the appeal of a strip club, especially if you are single. You can just watch porn, same thing in my eyes. Reading what people have mentioned about sex crime increasing in the area of a strip club or the like, the actual conclusion seems questionable, no?


 
I'm not hung up about the morality of it, and I'm not (yet) convinced by the violence argument, but the rest of your post is hopelessly uninformed.  It's nothing like porn. And it's not much like a strip club either.  The issue here is a lap-dancing club, or to be accurate, a tableside-dancing club. (In this country the law doesn't permit touching between the dancer and customer. So the dancer does not sit on the customer's lap.)

You really need to try it to understand it. I have. (Who else has?) You chat to an attractive woman, she does her best to persuade you that she likes you, then she strips off, turns round and touches her toes so that her genitals are three inches from your face. You can smell her cunt. Then you thank her and give her some money. It's a bit more intimate than porn! It's very arousing and it's proven to enable and encourage prostitution. Which I object to because it dehumanizes people, damages them emotionally and undermines mutual respect between the sexes. Whether that counts as a moral issue is beside the point.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Dec 21, 2012)

hassan said:


> If there is nothing illegal going on in the strip club then I don't see the problem. Just because you see something as "morally" wrong doesn't mean the rest of the world has to think that too.


 
liberal


----------



## Maltin (Dec 21, 2012)

Frumious B. said:


> I'm not hung up about the morality of it, and I'm not (yet) convinced by the violence argument, but the rest of your post is hopelessly uninformed.  It's nothing like porn. And it's not much like a strip club either.  The issue here is a lap-dancing club, or to be accurate, a tableside-dancing club. (In this country the law doesn't permit touching between the dancer and customer. So the dancer does not sit on the customer's lap.)
> 
> You really need to try it to understand it. I have. (Who else has?) You chat to an attractive woman, she does her best to persuade you that she likes you, then she strips off, turns round and touches her toes so that her genitals are three inches from your face. You can smell her cunt. Then you thank her and give her some money. It's a bit more intimate than porn! It's very arousing and it's proven to enable and encourage prostitution.


given your description, how does this differ from a "strip club" in your eyes? Your description doesn't sound very arousing either. And how does the performance you describe "enable and encourage prostitution"?


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## Frumious B. (Dec 21, 2012)

FFS, don't you have a shred of imagination?  

I give up. If you can't work it out, go on a field trip and learn something.


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## Brixton Hatter (Dec 21, 2012)

Frumious B. said:


> ...You can smell her cunt....


Funnily enough, when I was in Nour the other day, this slightly disturbed-looking lady was getting people to move out of her way by saying "Open my legs. Smell my cunt."

I don't think anyone took her up on the offer.


----------



## leanderman (Dec 21, 2012)

Frumious B. said:


> FFS, don't you have a shred of imagination?
> 
> I give up. If you can't work it out, go on a field trip and learn something.


 
Are these not 'brothels for cowards'?


----------



## Frumious B. (Dec 21, 2012)

Pretty much. Also 'brothels you can claim on your expenses'.


----------



## Maltin (Dec 21, 2012)

Frumious B. said:


> FFS, don't you have a shred of imagination?
> 
> I give up. If you can't work it out, go on a field trip and learn something.


Rather than a lack of imagination or knowledge on my part, I think the problem is that you've let your imagination run wild.


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## Gramsci (Dec 21, 2012)

Maltin said:


> given your description, how does this differ from a "strip club" in your eyes? Your description doesn't sound very arousing either. And how does the performance you describe "enable and encourage prostitution"?


 
To defend Frumious B here its not unknown for lap dancing establishments to end up supplying "extras." Thats why as part of the conditions for the application is that the whole place is covered by CCTV.


----------



## Maltin (Dec 21, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> To defend Frumious B here its not unknown for lap dancing establishments to end up supplying "extras." Thats why as part of the conditions for the application is that the whole place is covered by CCTV.


Yesterday you said "I agree with you. But some posters here see lap dancing bars as little different to prostitution."  It looks like you might be in that category as well.

Whilst I am sure some girls will have offered "extras" in some clubs, I imagine that this happens rarely.

And that Spearmint Rhino story is over 10 years old, so not necessarily indicative of current practices.


----------



## Frumious B. (Dec 22, 2012)

Too many posters here with no clue. But they claim to have an opinion. What a waste of electricity. And far too significant an issue to be dealt with so trivially. I think I'd rather witter about my cat. <Unfollow thread.>


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## ViolentPanda (Dec 22, 2012)

Frumious B. said:


> Didn't the violence issue come up? Surely in a 5 hour meeting it was given an airing?


 
Depends what the police comprehend "violence" as covering. In my experience, they limit themselves to dealing with physical violence only, whenever possible, and don't see it as their job to "police" *possible* transmission routes for other less immediate forms of violence.
Acting in such a way does, however, expose the myth of "multi-agency" co-operation.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 22, 2012)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Unfortunately, that often brings violent homophobes crawling out from under their stones. There have been serious attacks on gay men leaving that gay spa in Streatham.


 
There's still homophobic aggro in Vauxhall, although nowhere near as bad as it was 15-20 years ago, thankfully.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 22, 2012)

hassan said:


> If there is nothing illegal going on in the strip club then I don't see the problem. Just because you see something as "morally" wrong doesn't mean the rest of the world has to think that too. I personally don't see the appeal of a strip club, especially if you are single. You can just watch porn, same thing in my eyes. Reading what people have mentioned about sex crime increasing in the area of a strip club or the like, the actual conclusion seems questionable, no?


 
It's open to question. Some areas see a rise in sex offenses, others don't. There are appear to be lots of push and pull factors such as availability of alcohol, location, neighbourhood safety and surveillance etc.  One of the reasons (besides bribery) the coppers used to love the old strip joints in Soho was because the clubs watered the drinks so heavily that rowdy drunks were few and far between, and pissed punters tend to be the main source of trouble, both for women working in the club, and women who live (or even just pass) nearby.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 22, 2012)

Frumious B. said:


> I'm not hung up about the morality of it, and I'm not (yet) convinced by the violence argument, but the rest of your post is hopelessly uninformed. It's nothing like porn. And it's not much like a strip club either. The issue here is a lap-dancing club, or to be accurate, a tableside-dancing club. (In this country the law doesn't permit touching between the dancer and customer. So the dancer does not sit on the customer's lap.)
> 
> You really need to try it to understand it. I have. (Who else has?) You chat to an attractive woman, she does her best to persuade you that she likes you, then she strips off, turns round and touches her toes so that her genitals are three inches from your face. You can smell her cunt. Then you thank her and give her some money. It's a bit more intimate than porn! It's very arousing and it's proven to enable and encourage prostitution. Which I object to because it dehumanizes people, damages them emotionally and undermines mutual respect between the sexes. Whether that counts as a moral issue is beside the point.


 
You've just judged prostitution in roundly moral terms, and then claim that whether it's a moral issue is beside the point. 

Do you do that cartoon thing of standing on the head of a rake and having the handle whack you in the face, too?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 22, 2012)

Brixton Hatter said:


> Funnily enough, when I was in Nour the other day, this slightly disturbed-looking lady was getting people to move out of her way by saying "Open my legs. Smell my cunt."
> 
> I don't think anyone took her up on the offer.


 
I bet she got her stuff and got served quick as fuck!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 22, 2012)

Frumious B. said:


> Pretty much. Also 'brothels you can claim on your expenses'.


 
Pfftt. Been happening with real brothels for decades.


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## ViolentPanda (Dec 22, 2012)

Frumious B. said:


> Too many posters here with no clue. But they claim to have an opinion. What a waste of electricity. And far too significant an issue to be dealt with so trivially. I think I'd rather witter about my cat. <Unfollow thread.>


 
Interesting.
So, if people happen to disagree with your poorly-supported opinions, they have "no clue"?
Don't you think that your own emotive windbaggery displays the same about you?


----------



## Gramsci (Dec 22, 2012)

Frumious B. said:


> Too many posters here with no clue. But they claim to have an opinion. What a waste of electricity. And far too significant an issue to be dealt with so trivially. I think I'd rather witter about my cat. <Unfollow thread.>


 
I do not see anything trivial about this thread. Its been a good and heated debate.


----------



## Gramsci (Dec 22, 2012)

Maltin said:


> Yesterday you said "I agree with you. But some posters here see lap dancing bars as little different to prostitution." It looks like you might be in that category as well.
> 
> Whilst I am sure some girls will have offered "extras" in some clubs, I imagine that this happens rarely.
> 
> And that Spearmint Rhino story is over 10 years old, so not necessarily indicative of current practices.


 
Fair enough point. I have been trying in this thread to see where posters who oppose the bar are coming from.

No its not necessarily indicative of other lap dancing bars. Stringfellows lost a lot of business to Sprearmint Rhino due to this. They it appears were keeping to the license they had.


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## Manter (Dec 22, 2012)

I've been silently watching this thread for a few days..... I think frumious is getting a hard time of it. There is something about lap dancing that makes me profoundly uneasy. As does prostitution tbf, though for slightly different reasons. It is v difficult to express that discomfort without doing a disservice to the intelligent, feisty, generally lovely sex workers I have been lucky enough to meet. I think he is ex city or related profession (I don't know, just think so based on some of what he has said) and I actually completely agree with what he has said, seen through that experience. (Er, clearly I am not a bloke working in the city, but I work close enough to it to see lots of it)

It just feels like he is being laid into for expressing a real objection to something that I kind of share but have never managed to articulate or even straighten out in my head. 

This is badly expressed and tentative, because I'm still a bit confused in my head about it, but I really don't want any more lap dancing clubs, and certainly not near me....


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## Gramsci (Dec 22, 2012)

el-ahrairah said:


> Only an hour and a bit of the meeting was about the lap dancing club, as i understand it. I understand that the primary arguments were to do with the standard night-time economy concerns; i understand also that a letter was passed to council reps outlining how a lap dancing venue could be in collasion with the VAWG policy quoted by Gramsci above. Beyond that your correspondent knoweth not.


 
It is in collision with the VAWG policy. If the Council have an agreed policy such as this one they should make sure its applied consistently across different sections of the Council. In which case , under the new licensing legislation, it looks to me that Lambeth Council could have had a licensing policy of no Lap Dancing clubs. Thats my reading of the new licensing regulations. Im no expert so I may be wrong on this. So if someone here is better acquainted with licensing regulations can they so how it works.

Not saying I agree with it but that is my reading of present Council policy.


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## Gramsci (Dec 22, 2012)

Frumious B. said:


> Which I object to because it dehumanizes people, damages them emotionally and undermines mutual respect between the sexes. Whether that counts as a moral issue is beside the point.


 
Thinking about this today. Whilst I am no great supporter of Capitalism ( and that goes for a lot of people even if no alternative is there at moment) my problem with opposing lap dancing ( apart from my previous posts) is that I see underlying the objections to it a certain view of what sexual practise should be.

If the cash nexus was removed from this would you have a problem with those male or female who like to be sexual exhibitionists? Or those who (voluntarily) like S/M sexual practise? Where they are treated as on object for another. Or those who , sometimes, like to take part in in sexual practise that is degrading as part of their sexual fantasy life?


IMO what capitalism is good at is latching onto sexuality to make a profit. Capitalism is amoral. The City imo has caused more dehumanisation and exploitation than Lap Dancing bars. But I do not see politician legislating against the City. But as have posters have repeatedly said exploitation takes place in many spheres of life. It is necessary to separate the sex from its exploitation.

And opposing Lap Dancing bars as they dehumanise would also go for the Gay equivalent. Or is that different issue?


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## Manter (Dec 22, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> Thinking about this today. Whilst I am no great supporter of Capitalism ( and that goes for a lot of people even if no alternative is there at moment) my problem with opposing lap dancing ( apart from my previous posts) is that I see underlying the objections to it a certain view of what sexual practise should be.
> 
> If the cash nexus was removed from this would you have a problem with those male or female who like to be sexual exhibitionists? Or those who (voluntarily) like S/M sexual practise? Where they are treated as on object for another. Or those who , sometimes, like to take part in in sexual practise that is degrading as part of their sexual fantasy life?
> 
> ...


But lap dancing, stripping and gay burlesque/saunas are different. Lap dancing feels like victims titivating overlords(IMO), stripping still has an element of sexual power about the female role... Gay sex clubs are free of hundreds of years of sexual politics so feel absolutely different.

But as I said, that is poorly thought out as I really have mixed feelings


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## Gramsci (Dec 22, 2012)

Manter said:


> But lap dancing, stripping and gay burlesque/saunas are different. Lap dancing feels like victims titivating overlords(IMO), stripping still has an element of sexual power about the female role... Gay sex clubs are free of hundreds of years of sexual politics so feel absolutely different.
> 
> But as I said, that is poorly thought out as I really have mixed feelings


 
I have mixed feelings about this as well.

The new fad of Burlesque is also said to be empowering for women who do it.

Also people have a lot of different opinions of what they think is acceptable. If Max was a strip club ( like the one in Dean street , Soho )rather than a lap I reckon there would be objections about this objectifying women etc.

Gay sex clubs- well Gay Liberation from the late 60s was premised on sexual liberation. ie u could do what u want whenever u want. As it was underground sexuality it was different. I agree. I think , however, that now being gay is becoming more mainstream its becoming more like heterosexuality with the resultant socially enforced sexual norms and sexual hyprocisy. Met someone a while back who was running a gay escort agency ( legal) . Do not see the difference between that and one for heterosexual men.

Went to see film "Dead Europe" today. The Australian goes to visit his Greek family in Greece. They ask him if he has girlfriend. Says he is gay. That seems fine to them. They ask if he has boyfriend. Says no he likes anonymous sex with lots of men. Shocked silence. Ha Ha


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 22, 2012)

Manter said:


> . Lap dancing feels like victims titivating overlords(IMO),


 
Unless one of the 'overlords' breaks one of the many rules - at which point, a fellow weighing 275, and with a shaved head and no neck, grabs the 'overlord' by his skinny neck, and tosses him down the stairs.


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## Manter (Dec 22, 2012)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> Unless one of the 'overlords' breaks one of the many rules - at which point, a fellow weighing 275, and with a shaved head and no neck, grabs the 'overlord' by his skinny neck, and tosses him down the stairs.


Not in the UK. Sometimes, but all to often not


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 22, 2012)

I recall having lunch many years ago, in a strip bar. It was a burger and fries. I was really hungry.

All of a sudden, the dancer stopped dancing, and started yelling at me: I wasn't paying her any attention. She was really pissed off.


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## Manter (Dec 22, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> I have mixed feelings about this as well.
> 
> The new fad of Burlesque is also said to be empowering for women who do it.
> 
> ...


It's all a bit of an emotional and political minefield. I think I need to do some research


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 22, 2012)

Manter said:


> Not in the UK. Sometimes, but all to often not


 
I say it because I saw it happen. A woman was on the stage. A really drunk guy was sitting up front. At one point, he grabbed a handful of pocket change, and threw it at her.

This bouncer came up behind him, slammed his head onto the stage, threw him to the ground, grabbed him by the scruff of the neck, threw him down the back stairs, then threw a bar table after him.


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## Manter (Dec 22, 2012)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> I say it because I saw it happen. A woman was on the stage. A really drunk guy was sitting up front. At one point, he grabbed a handful of pocket change, and threw it at her.
> 
> This bouncer came up behind him, slammed his head onto the stage, threw him to the ground, grabbed him by the scruff of the neck, threw him down the back stairs, then threw a bar table after him.


And when I was a cocktail waitress and someone groped me, the bouncers picked him up and took him out, opening all the swing doors with his head. But that doesn't alter the fact that many women aren't getting that protection.... And that actually they shouldn't be put in the position where they are so objectified they can be treated as meat in the first place IMO


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 22, 2012)

Manter said:


> And when I was a cocktail waitress and someone groped me, the bouncers picked him up and took him out, opening all the swing doors with his head. But that doesn't alter the fact that many women aren't getting that protection.... And that actually they shouldn't be put in the position where they are so objectified they can be treated as meat in the first place IMO


 
Can't speak for the UK. Here, any woman working in any such establishment has that sort of protection. There are heavy licencing requirements before they can even open their doors.


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## Maltin (Dec 22, 2012)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> Can't speak for the UK. Here, any woman working in any such establishment has that sort of protection. There are heavy licencing requirements before they can even open their doors.


It is the same in the UK too.


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## Gramsci (Dec 22, 2012)

Manter said:


> It's all a bit of an emotional and political minefield. I think I need to do some research


 
The divisions of opinion here are not that new. Within second wave feminism what was the correct feminist line was fiercely argued about in late 70s and early 80s . There is more than one kind of feminism. The book that I was reminded of when on this thread is Pleasure and Danger: Exploring Female Sexuality 

Written some time ago. Bit was influential collection of essays.


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## Gramsci (Dec 22, 2012)

Report on the Council licensing meeting from Brixton Blog 




> Cllr Jack Hopkins, member for Oval and also cabinet member for community safety spoke eloquently against the application on the grounds of women’s safety.
> Speaking after the five-hour meeting, he told the Blog: “This is a fantastic victory for people power, and is in line with protecting girls and women against violence.


 




> He said: ”This isn’t Soho, we have schools, families and youth clubs just down the road. This sex entertainment venue is attracting the wrong kind of person.”


 
Soho also has schools and families. 



> Crucially, the residents were also supported by lawyer Jon Payne, provided on a pro bono basis by the Christian Legal Centre. Mr Payne argued that in fact the area was heavily residential, and the new legislation had been designed so that local people and councils can have more of a say over sex venues in their neighbourhoods.


 
Yes the right wing Christians got involved. Check the link they also oppose abortion and the so called influence of Islam in this country. So the local residents go together with the Christian right to oppose this application.


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## Manter (Dec 22, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> Report on the Council licensing meeting from Brixton Blog


 

 Which is where it gets difficult. I strongly believe the outcome was the right one. But they are very uncomfortable bedfellows. But because I am pro choice, do I have to be pro sex work? I don't think so. 

(And soho has v few families, schools etc, and they moved in there knowing it was a sex centre since about 1700....)


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## Manter (Dec 22, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> The divisions of opinion here are not that new. Within second wave feminism what was the correct feminist line was fiercely argued about in late 70s and early 80s . There is more than one kind of feminism. The book that I was reminded of when on this thread is Pleasure and Danger: Exploring Female Sexuality
> 
> Written some time ago. Bit was influential collection of essays.


I've read it. 

Have you read female chauvinist pigs? One of the essays in there sums up my feelings better than I can


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## Manter (Dec 22, 2012)

Maltin said:


> It is the same in the UK too.


Sometimes in some places



Johnny Canuck3 said:


> Can't speak for the UK. Here, any woman working in any such establishment has that sort of protection. There are heavy licencing requirements before they can even open their doors.


Don't think it's that different. There are rules. But who polices them? And what about the wider effect on both the 'dancers' and the punters?


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## gabi (Dec 22, 2012)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> I wonder how many people on the boards have ever known a woman who has worked as a prostitute or other type of sex trade worker?
> 
> For all you who have known someone like that: how many of them were 'trafficked'?


 
I've known loads. Through my sister's work for the prostitutes collective in new zealand (where sex working was made legal in 2003). None were perfect (but who of us are?), and certainly none were trafficked. I loved hanging out with them, and not for grotty reasons. a very good bunch of people. the NIMBYism on this thread is disturbing.

and fwiw. lap dancing is not prostituion. there's nothing wrong with either though imo. those lasses had far better lives than the ladies (and lads) working in the accounts department of a shipping company where i was at the time


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## peterkro (Dec 22, 2012)

A personal anecdote which was important on my view of such things.Back in the whatever decade the New Queens had had strippers in on a Sunday lunch time,I found it personally embarrassing but not enough to stop frequenting the bar.Anyhow there was a woman in (about 18)who did her thing collected the cash and then walked off to get changed naked,what floored me is that she held a menu over her arse to prevent the lurid stares(her arse not her fanny),you can't tell me someone with that sort of modesty about her body was doing something voluntarily and wasn't coerced by economic or other reasons.


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 22, 2012)

Manter said:


> Sometimes in some places
> 
> 
> Don't think it's that different. There are rules. But who polices them? And what about the wider effect on both the 'dancers' and the punters?


 
The bylaw enforcement people love to shut places down. Also, a lot of strip bars here are run by the Hells Angels. They're quite proficient at policing their own establishments.


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## gabi (Dec 22, 2012)

peterkro said:


> A personal anecdote which was important on my view of such things.Back in the whatever decade the New Queens had had strippers in on a Sunday lunch time,I found it personally embarrassing but not enough to stop frequenting the bar.Anyhow there was a woman in (about 18)who did her thing collected the cash and then walked off to get changed naked,what floored me is that she held a menu over her arse to prevent the lurid stares(her arse not her fanny),you can't tell me someone with that sort of modesty about her body was doing something voluntarily and wasn't coerced by economic or other reasons.


 
Ive seen folk doing that in the albert after a strenuous poo. what's your point.


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 22, 2012)

peterkro said:


> coerced by economic or other reasons.


 
That's why I go to work. I'm coerced by economic reasons.


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## peterkro (Dec 22, 2012)

gabi said:


> I've known loads. Through my sister's work for the prostitutes collective in new zealand (where sex working was made legal in 2003). None were perfect (but who of us are?), and certainly none were trafficked. I loved hanging out with them, and not for grotty reasons. a very good bunch of people. the NIMBYism on this thread is disturbing.
> 
> and fwiw. lap dancing is not prostituion. there's nothing wrong with either though imo. those lasses had far better lives than the ladies (and lads) working in the accounts department of a shipping company where i was at the time


I hung out in places like the Purple Onion in Auckland decades ago (being a speed freak it was often only us and pro's who were around at that time of the morning) and got to know the woman quite well.It was fairly on the level at that time and while most of them didn't like what they were doing it brought in the cash.Every time I go back to NZ now I look at the personal ads in the paper for sex for sale and it breaks my heart to see the number of Maori and Asian names listed.Whilst it might sound a good thing to legalise prostitution  I fear the outcome has been overall negative.


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## Manter (Dec 22, 2012)

gabi said:


> I've known loads. Through my sister's work for the prostitutes collective in new zealand (where sex working was made legal in 2003). None were perfect (but who of us are?), and certainly none were trafficked. I loved hanging out with them, and not for grotty reasons. a very good bunch of people. the NIMBYism on this thread is disturbing.
> 
> and fwiw. lap dancing is not prostituion. there's nothing wrong with either though imo. those lasses had far better lives than the ladies (and lads) working in the accounts department of a shipping company where i was at the time


Each country (and each woman) is different. That is why I ind it difficult. I personally find it distasteful. And I hated living above a prostitute as the misdirected door bells and people (I use the term loosely) I met in the hall were repugnant. But.... It happens, can we get rid if it? Dunno. Suspect not. So we need to focus on how to make the women safe within the environment they choose to/are forced by whatever financial or social circumstance to work in.

Does that mean I want lap dancing bars near me? Um, no


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## gabi (Dec 22, 2012)

peterkro said:


> I hung out in places like the Purple Onion in Auckland decades ago (being a speed freak it was often only us and pro's who were around at that time of the morning) and got to know the woman quite well.It was fairly on the level at that time and while most of them didn't like what they were doing it brought in the cash.Every time I go back to NZ now I look at the personal ads in the paper for sex for sale and it breaks my heart to see the number of Maori and Asian names listed.Whilst it might sound a good thing to legalise prostitution I fear the outcome has been overall negative.


 
Er, what sex worker advertises under their real name? i cant say i regularly check out the sex columns downunder but im fairly sure you're more likely to find 'Cinnamon' and 'Lovely' than 'Aroha' or 'Manu'.

no idea why you're bringing race into this either. The girls i knew in auckland were probably about 80% pakeha fwiw.


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## peterkro (Dec 22, 2012)

gabi said:


> Ive seen folk doing that in the albert after a strenuous poo. what's your point.


My point is rather than being proud of their body and displaying it with pride this woman at least had what is pretty much an infantile fear of her displaying her defecating sphincter in public that at least to me says that is a person not enjoying what they do.


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## gabi (Dec 22, 2012)

Manter said:


> Each country (and each woman) is different. That is why I ind it difficult. I personally find it distasteful. And I hated living above a prostitute as the misdirected door bells and people (I use the term loosely) I met in the hall were repugnant. But.... It happens, can we get rid if it? Dunno. Suspect not. So we need to focus on how to make the women safe within the environment they choose to/are forced by whatever financial or social circumstance to work in.
> 
> Does that mean I want lap dancing bars near me? Um, no


 
I don't want off-duty City worker/4 wheel drive pram pushing yummy mummy filled posh pizza/cupcake joints near me. Do i get a choice?


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 22, 2012)

peterkro said:


> I hung out in places like the Purple Onion in Auckland decades ago (being a speed freak it was often only us and pro's who were around at that time of the morning) and got to know the woman quite well.It was fairly on the level at that time and while most of them didn't like what they were doing it brought in the cash.Every time I go back to NZ now I look at the personal ads in the paper for sex for sale and it breaks my heart to see the number of Maori and Asian names listed.Whilst it might sound a good thing to legalise prostitution I fear the outcome has been overall negative.


 
What sort of work do Maoris usually get?

Doctor?

Professor?

Bank manager?


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## Manter (Dec 22, 2012)

gabi said:


> Er, what sex worker advertises under their real name? i cant say i regularly check out the sex columns downunder but im fairly sure you're more likely to find 'Cinnamon' and 'Lovely' than 'Aroha' or 'Manu'.
> 
> no idea why you're bringing race into this either. The girls i knew in auckland were probably about 80% pakeha fwiw.


I think it's because minority race and deprivation are often correlated.  And the point he is making i think is that the economically empowered are rarely rushing to sell their bodies- it is those that see it as a good option when they have limited alternative options


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## Manter (Dec 22, 2012)

gabi said:


> I don't want off-duty City worker/4 wheel drive pram pushing yummy mummy filled posh pizza/cupcake joints near me. Do i get a choice?


Only if you can prove they contravene planning strategy.....


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 22, 2012)

Manter said:


> Does that mean I want lap dancing bars near me? Um, no


 
There was a big concern in a local neighborhood when a halfway house for psych patients was suggested. Same sort of arguments: disruptive behavior, unsightly people etc.


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## peterkro (Dec 22, 2012)

gabi said:


> Er, what sex worker advertises under their real name? i cant say i regularly check out the sex columns downunder but im fairly sure you're more likely to find 'Cinnamon' and 'Lovely' than 'Aroha' or 'Manu'.
> 
> no idea why you're bringing race into this either. The girls i knew in auckland were probably about 80% pakeha fwiw.


Well my experience in Auckland,Hamilton,Wellington,Nelson,Kaikoura,Christchuch,Dunedin and Invercargill amongst other places is  at odds with your view that around 80% were Pakeha.


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## gabi (Dec 22, 2012)

Manter said:


> I think it's because minority race and deprivation are often correlated. And the point he is making i think is that the economically empowered are rarely rushing to sell their bodies- it is those tat see it as a good option when they have lited alternative options


 
Well, he's entirely fucking wrong about the make-up of the sex industry in new zealand. Which has benefited hugely from legalisation fwiw. but even prior to 2003 i dont recognise his analysis of the racial make-up of sex workers there.


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 22, 2012)

peterkro said:


> defecating sphincter.


 
Dude, I think you're telling us less about prostitution, and more about what you're like.


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## gabi (Dec 22, 2012)

peterkro said:


> Well my experience in Auckland,Hamilton,Wellington,Nelson,Kaikoura,Christchuch,Dunedin and Invercargill amongst other places is at odds with your view that around 80% were Pakeha.


 
You were clearly a busy boy


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## Manter (Dec 22, 2012)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> There was a big concern in a local neighborhood when a halfway house for psych patients was suggested. Same sort of arguments: disruptive behavior, unsightly people etc.


If I walk past a halfway house no one is going to automatically assume I am a patient/addict. Yet somehow being anywhere near a lap dancing bar, red light district or strip club means men walking past feel free to make comment, and some to reach out. Just my experience, not scientific, but as a woman, I don't lik it and don't want to experience it


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 22, 2012)

gabi said:


> You were clearly a busy boy


 
That many cities, that'd be a lot of defecating sphincters.


I think I'm going to make 'defecating sphincter' my phrase of the day.


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## Maltin (Dec 22, 2012)

Manter said:


> Sometimes in some places
> 
> Don't think it's that different. There are rules. But who polices them? And what about the wider effect on both the 'dancers' and the punters?


your comments seem contradictory. I said to jc3 that we have licensing requirements in the uk too, which you say only apply in some places and then you respond to his same post saying that it is not much different in the uk and there are rules here too. 

all of these places are licensed. As you note, there are rules and a consequence of being granted a licence is that a club have procedures in place to ensure the rules of the licence application are adhered too.

Even without the need to have licences, I can't see any place not having someone around to kick out unruly customers.


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## peterkro (Dec 22, 2012)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> What sort of work do Maoris usually get?
> 
> Doctor?
> 
> ...


You dick,of course not.While there may well be some woman who make a deliberate choice of prostitution as a career most don't because of the very reason they are locked out of well paying jobs and that is pretty much all that is available.


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 22, 2012)

Manter said:


> If I walk past a halfway house no one is going to automatically assume I am a patient/addict. Yet somehow being anywhere near a lap dancing bar, red light district or strip club means men walking past feel free to make comment, and some to reach out. Just my experience, not scientific, but as a woman, I don't lik it and don't want to experience it


 
I agree about hooker strolls. Years ago we lived in a neighborhood like that, and cars would slow down when my wife went to the corner store. We had people try to break in. I blame all of that on the illegality that forces working girls to lurk about on darkened streets and in alleys.

Again, I don't know how London is, but here, it's pretty quiet outside strip clubs etc. No one seems to be assuming that every woman in the vicinity is a 'fallen woman'.


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## gabi (Dec 22, 2012)

Manter said:


> Only if you can prove they contravene planning strategy.....


 
They contravene my planning strategy.


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## Manter (Dec 22, 2012)

Maltin said:


> your comments seem contradictory. I said to jc3 that we have licensing requirements in the uk too, which you say only apply in some places and then you respond to his same post saying that it is not much different in the uk and there are rules here too.
> 
> all of these places are licensed. As you note, there are rules and a consequence of being granted a licence is that a club have procedures in place to ensure the rules of the licence application are adhered too.
> 
> Even without the need to have licences, I can't see any place not having someone around to kick out unruly customers.


Not contradictory at all. Just expressed badly 

We have licensing regulations and laws. They are routinely flouted and there are lots of stories about women not receiving the protection they expect. I have seen men cross the line in city clubs, and no one pounces on them.  So yes, there are rules, and procedures, but enforcement is erratic.

But I didn't just say no to jc3,as maybe the rules are stricter or better enforced over there. Dunno.


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## Manter (Dec 22, 2012)

gabi said:


> They contravene my planning strategy.


You're not alone there... You just need to persuade your council


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 22, 2012)

peterkro said:


> You dick,of course not.While there may well be some woman who make a deliberate choice of prostitution as a career most don't because of the very reason they are locked out of well paying jobs and that is pretty much all that is available.


 
That's my point. You say that legalizing prostitution hasn't necessarily  been a good thing. Seems to me that if the maoris are being discriminated against, they will be pushed into low paying and marginal jobs in any event. That means that they will be overrepresented in prostitution. Legality at least means that they don't have to face some of the more bleak excesses that come along with having to work as a prostitute when doing so is against the law.

And fuck off with the 'dick' shit. If you can't make your point with argument, then just leave off altogether.


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 22, 2012)

Manter said:


> I have seen men cross the line in city clubs, and no one pounces on them.


 
Things are different here, then. Crossing the line brings a swift response. Letting the customers cross the line might mean loss of a business licence.


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## gabi (Dec 22, 2012)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> Again, I don't know how London is, but here, it's pretty quiet outside strip clubs etc. No one seems to be assuming that every woman in the vicinity is a 'fallen woman'.


 
I can tell you how London is dude. Or more specifically, modern-day Brixton.

It's the sort of place where once, diversity wasn't encouraged, it didn't need to be. It was the norm. You didn't question whether you lived next to a shit drummer, a junkie, a legendary jamaican producer, an australian, an art/drugs dealer. or even..... god forbid it, a PROSTITUTE.

Now. Well. I'd be keen to see the figures. But I'm fairly sure it's become very much homogenised. Rich young fuckwits have realised that it's actually quite cool. and ironically they've destroyed that vibe by moving in, en masse. And it's very fucking despressing.

Brixton's about (or was) inclusivity. It's a crying shame.


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## Manter (Dec 22, 2012)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> I agree about hooker strolls. Years ago we lived in a neighborhood like that, and cars would slow down when my wife went to the corner store. We had people try to break in. I blame all of that on the illegality that forces working girls to lurk about on darkened streets and in alleys.
> 
> Again, I don't know how London is, but here, it's pretty quiet outside strip clubs etc. No one seems to be assuming that every woman in the vicinity is a 'fallen woman'.


Again, as I've said, bit fuzzy on this. I have had some appalling experiences, as a young blonde female out on her own at night leaving bars on the edge of red light district, opposite a hookers' pub, living in the flat above a prostitute, walking down the edge of a shipyard to a meeting and in a couple of city clubs.  But I haven't got it straightened out in my head as have also met great women who sell themselves (and a few who were damaged beyond repair for a variety of reasons )

What I am sure of is that the increasing objectification of women, the pornification of popular culture, the premature sexualisation of girls is very worrying. The pressure to be 'up for it' is distorting, and I can't help feeling that the view of empowered women choosing to sleep with multiple men to money is part of the same narrative. But I ave no 'evidence' for that, and genuinely happy hookers may find that view offensive. 

but I think less of a man when I discover he pays for his titillation


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## peterkro (Dec 22, 2012)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> That's my point. You say that legalizing prostitution hasn't necessarily been a good thing. Seems to me that if the maoris are being discriminated against, they will be pushed into low paying and marginal jobs in any event. That means that they will be overrepresented in prostitution. Legality at least means that they don't have to face some of the more bleak excesses that come along with having to work as a prostitute when doing so is against the law.
> 
> And fuck off with the 'dick' shit. If you can't make your point with argument, then just leave off altogether.


Oh so instead of fighting back about the discrimination it's better to say "oh at least they've opened up prostitution for us,no matter that we get the shit beaten out of us on a daily basis at least we have that right".Also it's Maori not maoris you dick.


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## gabi (Dec 22, 2012)

You're a dick, peterkro.

An illiterate one at that.


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## peterkro (Dec 22, 2012)

gabi said:


> You're a dick, peterkro.
> 
> An illiterate one at that.


Why thank you,you almost make me feel like I'm in NZ again.


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## Frumious B. (Dec 22, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> If the cash nexus was removed from this would you have a problem


 
So you've noticed that selling yourself for sex is different from having it just for pleasure. Amazing. You actually needed to reflect on the matter in order to unearth that issue. And you're one of the deeper thinkers here! This is the sort of uncaring naivety which has killed my interest in this 'debate'.  I only came back because on other topics you seem to be an intelligent, constructive person. 

FWIW, I've been to a swinger's club and a sex party in a stadium with thousands of people fucking in public and photographing each other. It was great, I participated and didn't waste a millisecond pondering any moral issues, which to me are redundant and hypocritical.


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 22, 2012)

peterkro said:


> Oh so instead of fighting back about the discrimination it's better to say "oh at least they've opened up prostitution for us,no matter that we get the shit beaten out of us on a daily basis at least we have that right".Also it's Maori not maoris you dick.


 
Fuck off twat

Go to a strip bar: maybe you'll get a glimpse of a defecating sphincter.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 22, 2012)

peterkro said:


> Why thank you,you almost make me feel like I'm in NZ again.


 
Haggard is spelled 'haggard', btw.


----------



## peterkro (Dec 22, 2012)

Molested by a dead sheep,great although I just got a warning from a Mod on another site for calling a clown a clown,you just can't compete.


----------



## peterkro (Dec 22, 2012)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> Haggard is spelled 'haggard', btw.


No shit Sherlock.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 22, 2012)

Hagrid


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 22, 2012)

Merle Haggard


----------



## peterkro (Dec 22, 2012)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> Fuck off twat
> 
> Go to a strip bar: maybe you'll get a glimpse of a defecating sphincter.


It may interest you to know there are many other sphincters beside the defecating one.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 22, 2012)

Ted Haggard, ex speed freak.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 22, 2012)

peterkro said:


> It may interest you to know there are many other sphincters beside the defecating one.


 
I'm sure you've made a study.


----------



## Gramsci (Dec 22, 2012)

Frumious B. said:


> So you've noticed that selling yourself for sex is different from having it just for pleasure. Amazing. You actually needed to reflect on the matter in order to unearth that issue. And you're one of the deeper thinkers here! This is the sort of uncaring naivety which has killed my interest in this 'debate'. I only came back because on other topics you seem to be an intelligent, constructive person.
> 
> FWIW, I've been to a swinger's club and a sex party in a stadium with thousands of people fucking in public and photographing each other. It was great, I participated and didn't waste a millisecond pondering any moral issues, which to me are redundant and hypocritical.


 
Well thanks for making that clear.

As for "uncaring naivety" I am more of the opinion that has been expressed here by me and other posters that selling oneself is what a lot of us do in different ways. Either being a wage slave or part of the army on reserve labour. So selling sex is not that different.

What I was getting at was what happened to this application. The religious right got involved.


----------



## peterkro (Dec 22, 2012)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> I'm sure you've made a study.


I have indeed,the saying is "in times of trouble think sphincter". In your case the one in your throat and the one in your arse have been reversed.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 22, 2012)

peterkro said:


> I have indeed,the saying is "in times of trouble think sphincter". In your case the one in your throat and the one in your arse have been reversed.


 
Maybe you've got a sphincter in your throat. 

I have one at the entrance to my stomach.


----------



## peterkro (Dec 22, 2012)

Well that may explain a lot, you should have a sphincter at each end of your oesophagus maybe your missing that vital one.Don't choke on your pretzel.​


----------



## leanderman (Dec 22, 2012)

gabi said:


> I can tell you how London is dude. Or more specifically, modern-day Brixton.
> 
> It's the sort of place where once, diversity wasn't encouraged, it didn't need to be. It was the norm. You didn't question whether you lived next to a shit drummer, a junkie, a legendary jamaican producer, an australian, an art/drugs dealer. or even..... god forbid it, a PROSTITUTE.
> 
> ...



But not inclusive enough for you to bring up children here! (Apologies, but I was a little disappointed by your statement on this, possibly unrelated, subject)


----------



## RaverDrew (Dec 23, 2012)

Frumious B. said:


> Too many posters here with no clue. But they claim to have an opinion. What a waste of electricity. And far too significant an issue to be dealt with so trivially. I think I'd rather witter about my cat. <Unfollow thread.>


 
You're a joker, going on about how there are people talking from an uninformed pov. Nearly everyting you have said on this thread reads like a reactionary Daily Mailesque nimby sensationalist. You blatantly have an agenda, or "issues" about this topic. Keep your prejudices out of it please, cos the shit you have spouted so far proves that you know absolutely NOTHING about the realities of the "sex industry" in London, whether that be about strip clubs, or the libellous insinuations of prostitution that you have come out with so far.


----------



## RaverDrew (Dec 23, 2012)

Manter said:


> I've been silently watching this thread for a few days.....


 
I bet you have...

You can fuck off too, you fucking desperate VERY creepy fucker, I've heard about some of the pm's you've been sending to people trying to "aquire" personal information about others on these boards, it's really not on, and you've already been caught out red handed spreading disinformation/rumours about stuff you know JACK SHIT about !!! It's damaging. At best you're either very naive, or at worst... something a LOT more sinister !!!


----------



## Gromit (Dec 23, 2012)

RaverDrew said:


> You're a joker, going on about how there are people talking from an uninformed pov. Nearly everyting you have said on this thread reads like a reactionary Daily Mailesque nimby sensationalist. You blatantly have an agenda, or "issues" about this topic. Keep your prejudices out of it please, cos the shit you have spouted so far proves that you know absolutely NOTHING about the realities of the "sex industry" in London, whether that be about strip clubs, or the libellous insinuations of prostitution that you have come out with so far.



I'll admit that my view is pretty uninformed when it comes to the sex industry.

It is however pretty informed at how the media writes its own stories with little care for reality. Which is why I started to challenge the kneejerk "oh its sooo god damn wrong" posters. Seeing that Raverdrew knows far more than I do is why I left the thread. He's doing far better than I could at highlighting the grey in this often supposed black or white topic and has my support.


----------



## RaverDrew (Dec 23, 2012)

RaverDrew said:


> I bet you have...
> 
> You can fuck off too, you fucking desperate VERY creepy fucker, I've heard about some of the pm's you've been sending to people trying to "aquire" personal information about others on these boards, it's really not on, and you've already been caught out red handed spreading disinformation/rumours about stuff you know JACK SHIT about !!! It's damaging. At best you're either very naive, or at worst... something a LOT more sinister !!!


 
Just in case you try to claim you don't know what this is all about, I'll make it clear, you've been sharing other people's home addresses and other personal information, and enquiring about others too without their knowledge, REALLY not on, especially in light of some other uninformed gossip you've tried to spread on these forums (you know what I'm on about). Not deliberately trying to be hostile, but sorry, it rings MASSIVE alarm bells for me, and has from other posters as well. Hence why I've felt the need to post this. Like I said, you're either being VERY naive, or who knows...

edit: As you may have realised, information spreads very quick round these parts, I'd love to think this is all innocent, but experience tells me that you can't be too careful.


----------



## editor (Dec 23, 2012)

RaverDrew said:


> I bet you have...
> 
> You can fuck off too, you fucking desperate VERY creepy fucker, I've heard about some of the pm's you've been sending to people trying to "aquire" personal information about others on these boards, it's really not on, and you've already been caught out red handed spreading disinformation/rumours about stuff you know JACK SHIT about !!! It's damaging. At best you're either very naive, or at worst... something a LOT more sinister !!!


Umm, OK. This is a very serious allegation. For the record, the mods have received no reported PMs about such activities,  so I'm sure you can understand why I have to ask you to back this up with something concrete.


----------



## RaverDrew (Dec 23, 2012)

will pm you


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 23, 2012)

peterkro said:


> Well that may explain a lot, you should have a sphincter at each end of your​oesophagus maybe your missing that vital one.Don't choke on your pretzel.​


 
I think I'm going to offer you an apology. Looking back, I think my initial comment about the Maori was misunderstood, maybe due to a lack of clarity on my part. I don't think that disagreeing with someone makes it ok to get personally abusive, but once the personalities get involved, I sometimes take the ball and run with it, as it were; and that's no better. My doing so makes me guilty of and promotes an aspect of internet conduct that I've never liked. I apologize for doing it to you.


----------



## Gramsci (Dec 23, 2012)

Manter said:


> (And soho has v few families, schools etc, and they moved in there knowing it was a sex centre since about 1700....)


 
I would not agree with this. There is a primary school in Great Windmill street. Which shows that people with kids live there.

Also , as we see in Brixton, areas change, Westminster Council have made efforts to clean the area up. I used to know a newsagent who worked in Soho for years. He said the area had changed. Soliciting on the streets was banned years ago. The Clip joints have gone. Police have been attempting to use ASBO legislation to get rid of brothels.

Edited to say unsuccessful use of ASBO legislation. But the Council have used CPO orders on brothels which has cut them by a half according to article.


----------



## DRINK? (Dec 23, 2012)

gabi said:


> Brixton's about (or was) inclusivity. It's a crying shame.



Unless you are deemed a ''rich young fuckwit"


----------



## Gramsci (Dec 23, 2012)

Manter said:


> Only if you can prove they contravene planning strategy.....


 
I could suggest that under the new Brixton Supplementary Planning Documents that establishments that cater for yummy mummies with four wheel drives are banned.  Along with planning restrictions on cup cake shops. As there presence upsets me.


----------



## Gramsci (Dec 23, 2012)

Gromit said:


> I'll admit that my view is pretty uninformed when it comes to the sex industry.
> 
> It is however pretty informed at how the media writes its own stories with little care for reality. Which is why I started to challenge the kneejerk "oh its sooo god damn wrong" posters. Seeing that Raverdrew knows far more than I do is why I left the thread. He's doing far better than I could at highlighting the grey in this often supposed black or white topic and has my support.


 
That is what I am not happy about. The black and white way this is seen.

Which is why I am glad there has been a full and frank discussion here. I do not think it would happen anywhere else.

But I notice the last few pages have got rather personalised. Whilst this topic can is controversial its a pity that this is happened.

Raverdrew, Canuck and Gabi have given the other side to the argument. And Frumious B has taken opposing view. Meant a thought provoking debate. I also think Manter has made a few good points about what it is like for a woman in London. Also interesting to hear the view from NZ as NZ has gone down a different route to the Swedish model. Which is the one that Lambeth have been influenced by. 

U75 is known for its "colourful" debating style


----------



## Manter (Dec 23, 2012)

RaverDrew said:


> I bet you have...
> 
> You can fuck off too, you fucking desperate VERY creepy fucker, I've heard about some of the pm's you've been sending to people trying to "aquire" personal information about others on these boards, it's really not on, and you've already been caught out red handed spreading disinformation/rumours about stuff you know JACK SHIT about !!! It's damaging. At best you're either very naive, or at worst... something a LOT more sinister !!!


Um, what the fuck?


----------



## Manter (Dec 23, 2012)

RaverDrew said:


> Just in case you try to claim you don't know what this is all about, I'll make it clear, you've been sharing other people's home addresses and other personal information, and enquiring about others too without their knowledge, REALLY not on, especially in light of some other uninformed gossip you've tried to spread on these forums (you know what I'm on about). Not deliberately trying to be hostile, but sorry, it rings MASSIVE alarm bells for me, and has from other posters as well. Hence why I've felt the need to post this. Like I said, you're either being VERY naive, or who knows...
> 
> edit: As you may have realised, information spreads very quick round these parts, I'd love to think this is all innocent, but experience tells me that you can't be too careful.


Er, categorically untrue. Can you tell me what the hell is going on, please?


----------



## leanderman (Dec 23, 2012)

It's like Bucharin in 1937. You may have to go before the central committee!


----------



## Manter (Dec 23, 2012)

leanderman said:


> It's like Bucharin in 1937. You may have to go before the central committee!


Unless I have already been judged guilty as an enemy of the people.

I am going to be charitable and assume he got me confused with someone else


----------



## peterkro (Dec 23, 2012)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> I think I'm going to offer you an apology. Looking back, I think my initial comment about the Maori was misunderstood, maybe due to a lack of clarity on my part. I don't think that disagreeing with someone makes it ok to get personally abusive, but once the personalities get involved, I sometimes take the ball and run with it, as it were; and that's no better. My doing so makes me guilty of and promotes an aspect of internet conduct that I've never liked. I apologize for doing it to you.


Fair enough I was unnecessarily aggressive and had been drinking.So I also apologise.


----------



## Louloubelle (Dec 23, 2012)

el-ahrairah said:


> There is plenty of evidence that sex crime and trafficking does increase.


 
I would be extremely interested to see evidence of this. 



el-ahrairah said:


> Also, an anti-capitalist who is in favour of sex work is clearly only in favour of his own liberation from exploitation. The exploitation involved in the sex industry is not just the objectivation of the individuals who choose to work in it (in as much as any work is a choice) but the continued exploitation of all women, the creation of a _sex class_, and blah blah blah etc.


 
The above sounds like you are claiming that women who choose to work as sex workers are traitors against their gender.  Please clarify.


----------



## Louloubelle (Dec 23, 2012)

el-ahrairah said:


> because according to some stats, the presence of brothels and sex workers in an area make sexual assaults, rape, street harassment etc more common.


 
Please provide the relevant stats.  The only stats i have seen re this issue are false and  unsubstantiated claims by Eaves / the Poppy Project.



el-ahrairah said:


> according to some theories as well, under a patriarchy the existence of a sex class embraced willingly by some counters the unwillingness of others to be treated in such a way, confirms the notion of all women as sexually available and creates a climate of tolerance towards sexist nonsense.


 
I think that these theories of which you speak are theories in which female sex workers are either abused and exploited victims or evil gender traitors.  This is a very primitive and unsophisticated way of looking at a complex issue IMO


----------



## Gramsci (Dec 23, 2012)

Anyway back to the subject of the licensing meeting.

The local residents got legal representation from the Christian Legal Centre a sister organisation to Christian Concern.

I have started to look up Christian Concern to see what they are on about. They are a right wing socially conservative group. Like UKIP they are clever about how they phrase things on there webpage.

I have a real problem with residents who work with groups like this. I have attended licensing meetings. You can easily represent yourself or other residents without recourse to a right wing Christian group. You can do it without legal representation.

Christian Concern wants to get a platform to pursue its other socially conservative campaigns. That is why they have latched onto the Lap Dancing licensing issue. Doing this gives them a profile. And uncritical press coverage. They can be seen to be defending residents. It is clear CC is about. I can read between the lines. By working with CC the residents are supporting an organisation which is anti gay and anti abortion and anti those of other religious faiths it does not like- Islam. They are pretty well from the same political stable as UKIP.

As with groups like this they are linked to other organisations and campaigns. See the links on there website to the "concerns" they have. Which are Gays, marriage, Islam and abortion.

See here for informative article from Pink News about "The Coalition for Marriage"

(sorry edited as forgot to put link in to original article.)






> . Other Christian Concern members, Ade Omooba and Andrea Williams, have led many anti-gay campaigns, most notably afailed campaign to prevent passage of anti-discrimination legislation in 2006.
> 
> C4M Grass Roots? Knotweed, more like…
> 
> ...


----------



## Gramsci (Dec 23, 2012)

leanderman said:


> It's like Bucharin in 1937. You may have to go before the central committee!


 
BUKHARIN 

your straight off to the re education camp comrade.


----------



## Manter (Dec 23, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> BUKHARIN
> 
> your straight off to the re education camp comrade.


But it's all transliterated, and there isn't a standard agreement on correct transliteration. So sure he's fine.


----------



## Gramsci (Dec 23, 2012)

Manter said:


> But it's all transliterated, and there isn't a standard agreement on correct transliteration. So sure he's fine.


 
I never new that. Still I prefer the K. More Russian.


----------



## Louloubelle (Dec 23, 2012)

el-ahrairah said:


> it has to be said, most of the liberals who think prostitution should be legalised and that it's empowerfulising haven't had much contact with the sex industry.


 
Most of the well informed people I know who have an opinion on the issue (and this includes former sex workers) do not support the legalisation of prostitution. Legalisation is when the state effectively acts as a pimp. Under a legalised system sex workers are subject to compulsory medical tests and work within a dis-empowering and highly regulated system as if they were battery hens. Purchasers of sexual services are not required to have STI testing. The emphasis is on providing customers with a "clean" supply of sex workers. There are many problems and injustices inherent in the legalised system, I can post more details later if you wish.

Most people I know support the decriminalisation of sex work. This means that sex workers would be free to work together in collectives, thus greatly reducing the risk of violent assaults. They would be free to hire their own security, insist upon safer sex practices and just to hang out together with their friends and colleagues without having to worry about being prosecuted for brothel keeping. If prostitution was decriminalised then sex workers could still be prosecuted under existing laws relating to noise disturbance, loitering, or any other offense that they might commit. In the instance that serious offenses such as child abuse, rape, trafficking are occurring in relation to a sex business then there are existing laws that can be used to address these serious offenses.




el-ahrairah said:


> Also, this cropped up on my fb feed just today. For every anecdote of the happy hooker there are stories like this http://scase.wordpress.com/


 
Of course the situation is complex.  Many people have appalling experiences in the sex industry.  A minority do very well out of it.  Most people have an experience somewhere in-between these 2 extremes.


----------



## Manter (Dec 23, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> I never new that. Still I prefer the K. More Russian.


There is GOST, ISO (both in various iterations), United Nations romanisation standard, British standard, and a Harvard protocol. Then the Russian government version that they call something like old approach and new approach. It's because Cyrillic doesn't directly map across to the 26 characters of the Latin alphabet.

I used to know all the standards and their history, I think one is based on the Czech alphabet which is Latin with special characters.... But now I can only remember it is a mess


----------



## Manter (Dec 23, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> Anyway back to the subject of the licensing meeting.
> 
> The local residents got legal representation from the Christian Legal Centre a sister organisation to Christian Concern.
> 
> ...


Completely agree, but as a group of residents who aren't used to how this stuff works, if someone offers you organisation and expertise- for free- I can see why you'd snap it up


----------



## Gramsci (Dec 23, 2012)

Manter said:


> Completely agree, but as a group of residents who aren't used to how this stuff works, if someone offers you organisation and expertise- for free- I can see why you'd snap it up


 
I do not agree. Did Christian Concern offer? I would have thought a resident approached them first. Looking at there website should have run alarm bells.

I do not underestimate the abilities of residents. See the Campaign for the Rec for example.

As I said ive represented residents at licensing. You look stuff up and get in touch with your local Cllr.

The residents had views on a Lap Dancing bar in there area. Clearly they did not want it ( that is the objectors).

But its clear what Christian Concern are on about. I do not think the local residents could not have been aware of that. Also it could be possible that the residents who objected share some of the socially conservative views of CC.

The Christian Legal Centre are clever. They make it clear objections have to be "valid" in licensing terms.


----------



## leanderman (Dec 23, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> I never new that. Still I prefer the K. More Russian.



When pulled up by his editors over his transliterations of Arabic names, TE Lawrence said something along the lines of: 'Well they have been dead for centuries and are unlikely to complain!'


----------



## Manter (Dec 23, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> I do not agree. Did Christian Concern offer? I would have thought a resident approached them first. Looking at there website should have run alarm bells.
> 
> I do not underestimate the abilities of residents. See the Campaign for the Rec for example.
> 
> ...


Is that how it works? I assumed the Christian Right kept track of objectionable (in their terms) applications and get involved in trying to stop them. There are a lot of gay couples and young professionals up there so would be surprised if its a hotbed of right wing nuttery


----------



## Manter (Dec 23, 2012)

RaverDrew said:


> Just in case you try to claim you don't know what this is all about, I'll make it clear, you've been sharing other people's home addresses and other personal information, and enquiring about others too without their knowledge, REALLY not on, especially in light of some other uninformed gossip you've tried to spread on these forums (you know what I'm on about). Not deliberately trying to be hostile, but sorry, it rings MASSIVE alarm bells for me, and has from other posters as well. Hence why I've felt the need to post this. Like I said, you're either being VERY naive, or who knows...
> 
> edit: As you may have realised, information spreads very quick round these parts, I'd love to think this is all innocent, but experience tells me that you can't be too careful.





RaverDrew said:


> I bet you have...
> 
> You can fuck off too, you fucking desperate VERY creepy fucker, I've heard about some of the pm's you've been sending to people trying to "aquire" personal information about others on these boards, it's really not on, and you've already been caught out red handed spreading disinformation/rumours about stuff you know JACK SHIT about !!! It's damaging. At best you're either very naive, or at worst... something a LOT more sinister !!!


I've had time to think, re-read these, and I'm now furiously angry. Sod being charitable. 

 'Fucking desperate very creepy fucker'? How dare you? I don't care what you believe, however stupid, but trying to claim I'm god knows what, in public, all sorts of vague slanders and lies- what the hell is the matter with you? If you have been spreading rumours to other posters you are even more of a shit than you appear in these posts.

For the record, I have never tried to solicit people's addresses or personal information- and these mythical pms you refer to are just that. In fact quite the opposite, I have been very open about who *I* am. There are a bunch of people on here who have my mobile number, have been to my house, met me and my other half. 

I don't know what you think I have done to make so fucking irrational, My 'crime' appears to be to have moved into an area and wanted to get to know some people. Well, sorry, you don't get to run me off, whatever vile rumours and gossip YOU spread. Just stop and think, you stupid bastard, about how hurtful such stupid accusations based on absolutely nothing can be. I fucking live in this community, I love Brixton, and I want to make friends here, not deal with this sort of aggressive, groundless, unpleasant crap. 

I am not expecting an apology because these posts suggest you are a pretty unpleasant character and that level of courtesy will be alien to you. But I would appreciate if you stopped posting such crap about me, and certainly do not spread unpleasant lies to other posters, who mostly seem decent people I'd like to get to know.


----------



## bluestreak (Dec 23, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> Yes the right wing Christians got involved. Check the link they also oppose abortion and the so called influence of Islam in this country. So the local residents go together with the Christian right to oppose this application.


 

my enemy's enemy is not my friend.


----------



## Manter (Dec 23, 2012)

bluestreak said:


> my enemy's enemy is not my friend.


True..... But I guess we are all guilty of mistaking them for one when we needed help. If the residents (and I don't know) felt out of their depth, I can see why they'd take any help offered


----------



## bluestreak (Dec 23, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> I could suggest that under the new Brixton Supplementary Planning Documents that establishments that cater for yummy mummies with four wheel drives are banned.  Along with planning restrictions on cup cake shops. As there presence upsets me.


 
i'd campaign for that too.


----------



## bluestreak (Dec 23, 2012)

Louloubelle said:


> Please provide the relevant stats. The only stats i have seen re this issue are false and unsubstantiated claims by Eaves / the Poppy Project.


 
Louloubelle, I know a number of people who do the research at Eaves and I can assure you that their research methodology and stats aim to be as accurate as possible.  I trust their figures way more than I trust your word.  Seeing as you have pre-emptively suggested that their figures are wrong, perhaps you could provide me with the evidence that Eaves falsify their figures.  The Poppy Project are widely trusted and considered a good source doing good deeds, providing support to trafficked women with No Right To Public Funds.  Perhaps you could explain why this is a bad thing?


----------



## bluestreak (Dec 23, 2012)

i've looked up the criticisms and they amount to a) did not follow academic ethics standards rules.  because The poppy project isn't a university.  b) without acknowledgement of existing sources.  i understand this refers to giving citations to each establishment they researched.  should have done IMO.  c) one of the co-authors was already anti-prostitution.  so?  oh noes, anti-prostitution campaigners produces report to explain problems, report doesn't count as it's political.  no charity's report should therefore be considered independent, nor most academia nor any government.  there is almost no neutrality in this world.


----------



## Louloubelle (Dec 23, 2012)

Eaves and the Poppy Project are not widely trusted at all, they are a joke as far as research is concerned. 

I am pushed for time but here's a link just to get you started 


Top academics involved in sex research have launched an attack on "seriously flawed" research into British brothels.
The academics claim that research into prostitution in the UK published last month by the Poppy Project, which is partly funded by the Ministry of Justice, is inaccurate and unethical.
The research in the Big Brothel report "exhibits serious flaws in its mode of data collection and analysis," they warn.
The group of 27 key figures in sex work research from prestigious universities across the UK and overseas claim the report was conducted with neither ethical approval nor acknowledgement of evidence and co-authored by a journalist known for producing anti-prostitution findings.
The Poppy Project has received £5.8m in government funding and the women and equality minister, Harriet Harman, has publicly endorsed the organisation.

more here
http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2008/oct/03/research.women


----------



## Louloubelle (Dec 23, 2012)

The completely insane thing is that there is a massive problem with trafficked women working in lap / pole dancing and strip clubs, but Eaves / The Poppy Project have very little idea about it as they have not conducted proper research. 

I know this because I personally know a former sex worker who visited the PP to try to warn them about this.  The response she received was to be sat down in a room whilst one of the PP staff shouted abuse at her for identifying as a "sex worker" while the other member of staff (the then manager?) just sat there with an enigmatic smile on her face. 

Neither woman was remotely interested in listening to the concerns of the sex worker, perhaps if they had listened they would be able to produce some proper research on the subject.


----------



## bluestreak (Dec 23, 2012)

i covered that above. i am sorry to hear about your friend's experience but that is completely unusual based on my personal knowledge of them, who work with dozens of sex workers each day.  i have helped transcribe the experiences of sex workers interviewed by the Poppy project, and they have numerous qualified and experienced outreach workers, some of whom are former sex workers themselves.  they also provide support services and exit strategy support for sex workers.  some of their research figures come from interviews with current or former sex workers.  i do not think that having a go at someone who came in to criticise their work from a position of experience was very clever, but their research methods are based on real people's experience too.  in mitigation, they get a remarkable amount of abuse from pimps and pornographers and for some reason racists and it may be that the people in question assumed your friend had come to harrass them.  as you know political people are very attached to their causes and can get quite defensive.  of course, i wasn;'t there so this is only a theory.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 23, 2012)

Manter said:


> Which is where it gets difficult. I strongly believe the outcome was the right one. But they are very uncomfortable bedfellows. But because I am pro choice, do I have to be pro sex work? I don't think so.
> 
> (And soho has v few families, schools etc, and they moved in there knowing it was a sex centre since about 1700....)


 
Well, to be fair you could make the same claim about Vauxhall and Kennington, given that the old Pleasure Gardens and thereabouts weren't exactly free of people of negotiable affection (most of whom paid rent to the Archbishopric of Canterbury) until the early 20th century.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 23, 2012)

Manter said:


> There is GOST, ISO (both in various iterations), United Nations romanisation standard, British standard, and a Harvard protocol. Then the Russian government version that they call something like old approach and new approach. It's because Cyrillic doesn't directly map across to the 26 characters of the Latin alphabet.
> 
> I used to know all the standards and their history, I think one is based on the Czech alphabet which is Latin with special characters.... But now I can only remember it is a mess


 
And I thought that the German-speakers, with the _rechtschreibung_, were a bit mad!


----------



## Gramsci (Dec 23, 2012)

Manter said:


> Is that how it works? I assumed the Christian Right kept track of objectionable (in their terms) applications and get involved in trying to stop them. There are a lot of gay couples and young professionals up there so would be surprised if its a hotbed of right wing nuttery


 
London is a real mixture of people in each area.

If it is full of gay couples etc they should have known what the Christian religious right agenda is. 

If the Christian right track applications and offer help then these applications take time to go through the process. By that time I would have thought the residents objecting would have realised who they are getting help from.


----------



## Louloubelle (Dec 23, 2012)

bluestreak said:


> i've looked up the criticisms and they amount to a) did not follow academic ethics standards rules. because The poppy project isn't a university.


 
The fact is that the research was deeply flawed in very obvious ways. The fact that the Poopy Project isn't a university is irrelevant. If the researchers there are unwilling or unable to conduct research to the usually understood academic required standards they should wind their collective necks in and leave it to the big boys and girls who know what they are doing.



bluestreak said:


> b) without acknowledgement of existing sources. i understand this refers to giving citations to each establishment they researched. should have done IMO.


 
What the PP actually did was to get men to phone up various brothels and pretend to be punters. He asks the maid "what kind of girls do you have there today?" Maid replies "well we have a Swedish girl, an Italian young lady, a young lady from Brazil, a Russian model, a very sweet girl from Polynesia and a Japanese lady. In fact the brothel probably has 2 women and a variety of wigs. Anyone who has ever worked with sex workers as a photographer, counsellor, health worker, outreach worker, you name it, knows that this is how it works, but somehow the Poppy Project - who claim to be experts on prostitution, apparently do not know this.



bluestreak said:


> c) one of the co-authors was already anti-prostitution. so? oh noes, anti-prostitution campaigners produces report to explain problems, report doesn't count as it's political. no charity's report should therefore be considered independent, nor most academia nor any government. there is almost no neutrality in this world.


 
so you have a sex work abolitionist co-authoring a deeply flawed and biased report full of innacuracies an misinformation and you think it's fine because the author "is not a university". Or something.

Okaaaay


----------



## Gramsci (Dec 23, 2012)

Louloubelle said:


> Eaves and the Poppy Project are not widely trusted at all, they are a joke as far as research is concerned.
> 
> I am pushed for time but here's a link just to get you started
> 
> ...


 
Thanks for your informative posts. Even Julie Bindel who supports the project says:




> Our researchers contacted only brothels that advertised in local newspapers - not those that advertise on websites or on cards in telephone boxes. Because of this we only uncovered the tiniest corner of the trade


 
Also the research was phone calls only. 



> My co-author Helen Atkins and I recruited male friends and colleagues to help with the research, and warned them that the work might be upsetting. They were to telephone brothels, posing as potential punters,


 
 This seems to me very limited piece of social research to base government policy on. I notice the article you link showing the methodological flaws was written in 2008. So what happened to the proposed government review on criminalising men who pay for sex (the Swedish model)?


----------



## Gromit (Dec 23, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> Thanks for your informative posts. Even Julie Bindel who supports the project says:
> 
> Also the research was phone calls only.



So basically all the data they gathered was how advertised businesses market themselves when contacted by phone.

Marketing is a fancy name for lies and exaggeration innit.

Data gathered by untrained personnel too by the sounds of it.


----------



## Blagsta (Dec 23, 2012)

Legalised prostitution increases human trafficking

http://www2.lse.ac.uk/newsAndMedia/...prostitution-increases-human-trafficking.aspx


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## Louloubelle (Dec 23, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> This seems to me very limited piece of social research to base government policy on. I notice the article you link showing the methodological flaws was written in 2008. So what happened to the proposed government review on criminalising men who pay for sex (the Swedish model)?


 
Not sure what's happening with it here, I believe it is an ongoing debate.  I would imagine that the powers that be here may have some insights into why it would be a bad idea, but this is just my impression I could be wrong.   It is a very current issue in Ireland where various Xtian, right wing and old skool feminist groups are campaigning to criminalise paying for sex.


----------



## Louloubelle (Dec 23, 2012)

Blagsta said:


> Legalised prostitution increases human trafficking
> 
> http://www2.lse.ac.uk/newsAndMedia/...prostitution-increases-human-trafficking.aspx


 
I don't doubt it for a moment, although the piece you linked to  says 


> That legalised prostitution increases human trafficking inflows is likely, but cannot be proven with available evidence.


----------



## Gromit (Dec 23, 2012)

Blagsta said:


> Legalised prostitution increases human trafficking



Diminishing numbers of pirates leads to an increase in CO2 emissions.


----------



## Gramsci (Dec 24, 2012)

Louloubelle said:


> Please provide the relevant stats. The only stats i have seen re this issue are false and unsubstantiated claims by Eaves / the Poppy Project.
> 
> I think that these theories of which you speak are theories in which female sex workers are either abused and exploited victims or evil gender traitors. This is a very primitive and unsophisticated way of looking at a complex issue IMO


 
The theory that El-Ahrairah is talking about is Council policy. At the licensing meeting the Labour Cllr followed that policy in saying that sex work increases violence against woman:



> Cllr Jack Hopkins, member for Oval and also cabinet member for community safety spoke eloquently against the application on the grounds of women’s safety.
> Speaking after the five-hour meeting, he told the Blog: “This is a fantastic victory for people power, and is in line with protecting girls and women against violence.


 

Lambeth Councils policy The relevant pages are 23 and 74. Im assuming this is Council policy?

Definition of prostitution page 15:





> This Strategy commits Lambeth to a new approach to how we address prostitution.
> We are clear that prostitution is male violence and one form of commercial sexual
> exploitation. Acceptance of prostitution is one of a cluster of harmful attitudes that
> encourage and justify VAWG.


 
Page 74:



> The Partnership absolutely rejects the view of
> prostitution as work, which merely requires legalising and regulating. The
> Partnership absolutely rejects the argument that prostitution is a civil right – no
> woman wants the right to be sexually exploited, abused and demeaned.


 
It also sounds like the underlying ideology of Eaves / Poppy Project/ Julie Bindel? Am I correct?

I got stick from El- Ahraihah for opposing this view. But my link to contrary view (Belle Du Jour )was not very good. So do you know of Feminists theorists who would looks at the issue differently? Or feminist sociological research? It looks to me that this way to look at this complex issue is now the mainstream one in Labour party circles. In Lambeth anyway.

I know the Lambeth policy is about prostitution but looks like all types of sex work come under this concept set forward in the policy in the way it was used to oppose this Lap Dancing bar application.

As another link by El-ahairah states:





> The Coalition Against Sexual Exploitation:
> works to raise awareness of the harm caused to women through prostitution and other forms of commercial sexual exploitation, including stripping, lap dancing, pornography, sex tourism, mail order brides, and trafficking for the purposes of prostitution.
> The Coalition takes the view that prostitution and other forms of sexual exploitation are part of a spectrum of men’s violence against women and children,


----------



## Louloubelle (Dec 25, 2012)

Well here's my opinion FWIW.

I think it is shocking and deeply concerning that Lambeth council has based its policy on the basis of a belief that sex work is always violence against women.  This is problematic for a whole load of reasons and demonstrates that the council has a very limited and unsophisticated perspective on what is a complex issue.

I do not doubt that sex work can and does involve exploitation, violence and abuse.  I do not believe that any sane person would deny this.  

To me the issue is similar to that of drugs legislation, in which the laws to protect drug users from themselves usually only serve to oppress them.  The war against drugs is really a war against drug users and the war against prostitution and pornography is very often a war against sex workers.  Typically those activists at the front line of the battle claim to be rescuing drug users / sex workers whilst refusing to listen to the drug users / sex workers complaints that their activism is patronising, misguided and dis-empowering. 

Unfortunately, IME, there are sinister people and organisations supporting both sides of this divide.  I am unimpressed with various sex worker unions and sex workers' rights groups because many of them have alliances with pimps and "managers".  

There is some stuff that I am unable to write about here as it is too sensitive, but this is a serious issue in which 2 diametrically opposed sides fight over an issue whilst the people they are fighting over suffer from the effects of the fighting. 

I would love to say more but am sadly limited in what I am able to say here.


----------



## Gramsci (Dec 25, 2012)

Louloubelle said:


> Well here's my opinion FWIW.
> 
> I think it is shocking and deeply concerning that Lambeth council has based its policy on the basis of a belief that sex work is always violence against women. This is problematic for a whole load of reasons and demonstrates that the council has a very limited and unsophisticated perspective on what is a complex issue.
> 
> ...


 
I have friend in Argentina and recent case of abduction and forced prostitution has been big issue there . Also become mixed in with the Argentinian political fight between left and right. Which is to complicated to get into here and I do not understand all of it.

Sexual violence like this is a serious problem in many countries.

The issue of Lap Dancing bars has now become the political battleground for sexual politics and sex work in general . The change to the licensing laws did this. As I see from this thread. This is not a criticism it is an observation. Its an interesting phenomenon.

You are correct to say its like the drugs issue. Prohibitionists vs those who advocate decriminalisation / legalisation With the same type of criticisms. I am in favour of decriminalisation/ legislation and making sure those who work in the industry have support and rights when needed. Despite possibilities that this might not reduce trafficking. Have not read all of Blagstas link yet. I also think those who work in the industry need to be listened to what they need.

As this application showed the actual women who might work in the bar were not considered. There were conditions for CCTV inside etc but I think thats more to do with fears of place becoming a brothel rather than concern for the women working there. Records of women were supposed to be kept to ensure nationality. This is partly trafficking but also something employers are supposed to do anyway. Or they have the immigration people on there backs. Brazilian visa overstayers have worked in Lap Dancing. One job they could do without proper visa. Which is an issue with the sex industry. How do you give people support in the sex industry when that might the alert the border and immigration police?

I agree with you about organisations on both sides. Been trying to find research on Lap Dancing and some is clearly from the industry. The Christian right have also got involved as in the application here.

The role of the Labour party in this. Still do not quite understand this. The socially conservative can also be Labour voters. Being the Labour party the argument they use has to be appear grounded in research ( causes more sexual violence in area). The Labour party probably think they have to appeal to the socially conservative whilst being progressive on other issues like gay marriage. This could be how they think so not a cynical position.Traditionally the Labour party has a background in Methodism which always believed in wholesome family values whilst being radical on other matters. 

Any criticism of the Lambeth Labours position on this is likely to get a frosty response.


There is research project , finishing end of this year, by University of Kent funded by ESRC.




> "Do lap dancing clubs make some people feel unsafe in our cities at night? New research at the University of Kent will provide the first evidence of how the sexualisation of nightlife may be creating discomfort among particular social groups.
> The year-long study, which will explore the impact of lap dancing clubs in UK cities, will help council licensing officers and community safety groups make decisions on the suitability of the clubs in their communities.
> Professor Phil Hubbard, of the University’s School of Social Policy, Sociology and Social Research, is working with Dr Rachela Colosi, of the University of Lincoln, on the research project which is being funded via a £117,839 grant from the Economic and Social Research Council (ESRC).


 
Professor Hubbard writes on findings here.

Even in this research those women who work in it are not asked there opinion.

Have not had a chance to look at the findings thoroughly yet. It is Christmas.


----------



## leanderman (Dec 25, 2012)

Though I don't touch banned drugs, I'd legalise them.

So, in the interests of consistency, if nothing else, I suppose I should not want to criminalise the sex trade.


----------



## RaverDrew (Dec 26, 2012)

Louloubelle said:


> .
> 
> 
> 
> What the PP actually did was to get men to phone up various brothels and pretend to be punters. He asks the maid "what kind of girls do you have there today?" Maid replies "well we have a Swedish girl, an Italian young lady, a young lady from Brazil, a Russian model, a very sweet girl from Polynesia and a Japanese lady. In fact the brothel probably has 2 women and a variety of wigs. Anyone who has ever worked with sex workers as a photographer, counsellor, health worker, outreach worker, you name it, knows that this is how it works, but somehow the Poppy Project - who claim to be experts on prostitution, apparently do not know this.


 
This is standard, if police find you operating with more than two girls on the premises, it makes it very easy for them to shut you down.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Dec 28, 2012)

I find myself wondering what the answer would be if someone called a brothel and said "Hi, I'm a researcher from the UNiversity of Romford, could you tell me if you have any trafficked women on the premises and where they are from and how much you're selling a ride for?"  I suspect that this approach too would not provide what most would call reliable data.  Perhaps there is somewhere in the middle between what the brothels want the punters to think and what they want the people to think.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Dec 28, 2012)

leanderman said:


> Though I don't touch banned drugs, I'd legalise them.
> 
> So, in the interests of consistency, if nothing else, I suppose I should not want to criminalise the sex trade.


 
didn't leander road used to be a hub of the sex trade in brixton?  i know that josephine avenue was and that the residents were very unhappy with the kerb crawling, and use of the gardens in JA.


----------



## Louloubelle (Dec 28, 2012)

el-ahrairah said:


> I find myself wondering what the answer would be if someone called a brothel and said "Hi, I'm a researcher from the UNiversity of Romford, could you tell me if you have any trafficked women on the premises and where they are from and how much you're selling a ride for?" I suspect that this approach too would not provide what most would call reliable data.


 
The above post brought to you by a spokesperson from the Ministry of Stating the Bleedin Obvious.

The fact is that the irrational activities organised by the PP were not anything to do with research and should not be considered as research or used as the basis for council policy. If the council wishes to base its policy on an agenda cherished by a coalition of right wing / conservative / Xtian and old skool feminists then that is their decision but they should be honest about that and not claim that their policy is based on research findings.

Anyone with even a rudimentary understanding of sex work and of trafficking in human beings understands that obtaining intelligence about trafficking is difficult, complex and a very sensitive process.

My understanding is that intelligence most usually comes from sex workers themselves and also from punters.

Sometimes intelligence comes from other sources but this is fairly unusual.

To think imaginatively about this situation you have to try to put yourself in the place of a sex worker. Under current legislation you cannot work together with a friend or group of friends as this would constitute a "brothel". You are allowed to have a maid but if the maid accepts payment from you for her work she is committing an offense. Also (and this is extremely important) you cannot pay someone to provide security / close protection to you while you work as to accept payment from a sex worker for protection is a criminal offense.

The current laws leave sex workers in an extremely vulnerable situation re their personal safety as the laws prohibits them from taking sane and rational steps to work safely.

There was a case a couple of years ago when a nice middle aged lady was running a very discrete brothel somewhere (in the shires IMMIC?). Anyway this lady was concerned that a young woman who approached her asking to work at the brothel might have been trafficked and, like any good citizen, she reported her concerns to the police. In response the police raided her brothel and charged her with brothel keeping. IMMIC all her neighbours turned up at the trail to give her support and the jury rejected the charges (IMMIC - I will google later for a news link). However the poor woman was left with a threat that she would be arrested again if she opened the brothel again, also all of her assets had been seized and she had no money to live for an extended period.

Given that it is difficult to secure quality intelligence on trafficking and traffickers, it strikes me that that it is an act of outrageous fuckwittery to raid the brothel of a nice middle aged sex worker who has stuck her head over the parapet only to alert the police to concerns about trafficking.

In order for sex workers to report concerns about trafficking to the police, the police have to demonstrate a bit of intelligence and interpersonal skills and at least some degree of discernment about when to raid a brothel and when to instead cultivate a relationship with a sex worker who is a potential human asset re curent and future intelligence gathering.

If the police do not cultivate such relationships and if they do not provide a human face so that sex workers can feel free to report concerns about trafficking and other serious organised crime then they are cutting off possibly the most fruitful source of intel available to them.

Also if the police have no kind of amicable working relationship with sex workers then sex workers are unlikely to report concerns and issues re their own personal safety to the cops. Typically - like any disempowered community - sex worker are thus likely to resort to private law enforcement agencies (aka organised criminals).

Personally I think it would be better for the police and for sex workers and drug users if drug and sex work issues were perceived as social and public health issues, thus encouraging drug users and sex workers to feel confident that they can report concerns to the police. It should also leave the police free to concentrate on the serious criminals as opposed to chasing after people who are fairly insignificant in the grand plan of national and transnational organised crime.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Dec 28, 2012)

OK, so we've established the kind of research that doesn't work, you and bluestreak are completely at odds over the kind of organisation Eaves is.  Your post only makes sense if it is true that Eaves do not have any input from sex workers and seek to criminalise prostitution, otherwise you and Eaves are merely at odds over their methodology.  As you are wrong about both Eaves' contact with sex workers, and their stance on prostitution, as I understand they support the Nordic Model which criminalises buying sex but treats selling sex as both a health issue and as being a victim of abuse, then I guess it's simply that you don't like Eaves on a personal level and are looking to misrepresent them.  Like you they agree the laws are nonsense and are looking to protect women, you just disagree on how it should be done.  Your story about the woman who was done for keeping a brothel is pretty irrelevant to this discussion, you've only brought it in here to try and tar those arguments that disagree with you by association.  The way I see it, your theories on prostitution in end protect a large amount pimps and abusers and rapists as a side effect of protecting those women who are going it alone.   Perhaps I should post up a load of my clients' stories and present the rape and abuse they suffered in brothels as being the natural outcome to your pro-brothel stance. 

By the way, I note that earlier in the thread we were assured that trafficked women were reported to the police by local prostitutes as it was bad for business, the punters always being happier with a ten pound rape than a consensual twenty pound fuck - classy fuckers, but now we discover that if they do report it to the police they run the risk of being nicked. 

The whole thing needs a shake up.  We need to criminalise paying for sex, we need to treat prostitution as abuse, we need to provide exit strategies, we need to change the laws so that selling sex doesn't get you on the sex offender's register (although buying it probably should), we should make outreach and services easy to access. 

And we might harm the nice middle class boutique brothel but we'll protect a lot of very vulnerable people that aren't being protected at the moment.


----------



## Gramsci (Dec 28, 2012)

el-ahrairah said:


> then I guess it's simply that you don't like Eaves on a personal level and are looking to misrepresent them.


 
I have read Louloubelle posts with interest. She clearly has knowledge of this subject. To say that she does not like Eaves on a personal level is just an insult.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 28, 2012)

Louloubelle said:


> Sometimes intelligence comes from other sources but this is fairly unusual..


 
I wouldn't be surprised if some intelligence comes from undercover police work.


----------



## Gramsci (Dec 28, 2012)

el-ahrairah said:


> otherwise you and Eaves are merely at odds over their methodology


 
"merely"?

This is supposed to be research. Its not that one decides on a political position and then decides the methodology.

The criticisms of the methodology that PP /Eaves used to research Brothels was that- there methodology. Which did not reach the standards required of academic research ( see previous posts)

As the last government made a big thing about evidence based policy basing there policy on a flawed research method ( as was pointed out to them) was a mistake.


----------



## leanderman (Dec 28, 2012)

el-ahrairah said:


> didn't leander road used to be a hub of the sex trade in brixton?  i know that josephine avenue was and that the residents were very unhappy with the kerb crawling, and use of the gardens in JA.



exactly, which is why it may best to legalise (and try to control this nefariousness)!


----------



## Gramsci (Dec 28, 2012)

el-ahrairah said:


> The whole thing needs a shake up. We need to criminalise paying for sex, we need to treat prostitution as abuse, we need to provide exit strategies, we need to change the laws so that selling sex doesn't get you on the sex offender's register (although buying it probably should), we should make outreach and services easy to access.
> 
> And we might harm the nice middle class boutique brothel but we'll protect a lot of very vulnerable people that aren't being protected at the moment.


 
Can you clarify something here.

Bringing it back to the lap dancing application. The Cllr at the licensing meeting said that the application being refused was good as these establishments contributed to violence against women: The Cllr was in line with agreed Council policy on sex work. (See my previous posts on this)

From Brixton Blog report linked above:



> Cllr Jack Hopkins, member for Oval and also cabinet member for community safety spoke eloquently against the application on the grounds of women’s safety.
> Speaking after the five-hour meeting, he told the Blog: “This is a fantastic victory for people power, and is in line with protecting girls and women against violence.


 
So do you think that Lap Dancing bars be banned completely?

Secondly. If sex work is criminalised would that include men who sell sex to other men?

And what about women who sex work is being a Dominatrix? How does this kind of sex work fit into your view of sex work as abuse?


----------



## Louloubelle (Dec 29, 2012)

el-ahrairah said:


> OK, so we've established the kind of research that doesn't work, you and bluestreak are completely at odds over the kind of organisation Eaves is. Your post only makes sense if it is true that Eaves do not have any input from sex workers and seek to criminalise prostitution,


 
Not so. Sex workers are a large and disparate population with many different opinions. It would be surprising if the PP were not able to find some current or former (probably former) sex workers who share their view.

I am not suggesting that Eaves has no input from former sex workers at all, my complaint is that they use the testimonies of a small number of women to claim that they represent all sex workers.

The fact is that current and former sex workers hold a wide variety of opinions about legislation. Many women will comment that they would like to see prostitution legalised as they would like to experience a greater degree of legitimacy and protection re their work.

IME women who have worked in countries where prostitution legalised (pls note NOT decriminalised - which is something different entirely) typically express concerns about the 2 tier system that legalisation generally creates. Basically the more organised and healthy women work within the legal system and the vulnerable, sick, drug addicted sex workers and prostituted children inhabit a dangerous underground world outside of the legal system, alienated from health care workers, social workers and "normal" society.

The legislation debate is complex and important and debate should not be stifled by groups and individual who claim to have a monopoly on the truth.





el-ahrairah said:


> As you are wrong about both Eaves' contact with sex workers, and their stance on prostitution, as I understand they support the Nordic Model which criminalises buying sex but treats selling sex as both a health issue and as being a victim of abuse, then I guess it's simply that you don't like Eaves on a personal level and are looking to misrepresent them.


 
I know very well the attitude of some of Eaves staff having endured their company and opinions at first hand. To be honest, based on the women I did meet, I found them very easy to dislike.



el-ahrairah said:


> Your story about the woman who was done for keeping a brothel is pretty irrelevant to this discussion, you've only brought it in here to try and tar those arguments that disagree with you by association.




It was completely relevant to the discussion.

I found a link to the old news story, and I had merged elements from 2 different cases in my memory, both cases are relevant to this debate and here is a C&P of the news story

I will post the link in its own post as there is a maximum word number that I can post


----------



## Louloubelle (Dec 29, 2012)

> From Times Online May 14, 2010
> 
> ‘We thought of ourselves as calendar girls’
> 
> ...


----------



## Louloubelle (Dec 29, 2012)

part II




> Certainly it is hard to imagine a more sheltered and suburban setting than Chalton. Among the rows of large detached houses, the voluptuous Grecian statues in the driveway easily identify Finch’s home. Inside, a disco ball hangs above a thick cream carpet; scented candles and oils subtly mask the smell of four pampered cats. The centre of her business operations is a converted downstairs office, now complete with massage table, whirlpool and copious amounts of hand sanitiser. Finch took a percentage of the group’s earnings for providing advertising and the premises, but each woman could choose what she wanted to offer to clients and when. “We were a happy house of women,” she recalls. There was always a friend on hand to intervene if a situation became threatening and chat to if it was a slow work day. “We talked about cushions, children or menstrual cycles. I don’t have a bunch of Ukrainians strapped to things in the cellar.”
> 
> Finch has avoided foreign girls altogether, cautious that they might have been trafficked. She also ruled out any association with drugs, or anything stronger than a cup of tea. But her most important rule was not to hire anyone under 35, telling them that they deserved a chance at other things in life. She admits that she would rather have been a veterinary nurse if things had been different.
> 
> ...


 

http://www.forteantimes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=982156&sid=8c2c539614642f9a58ca39db3f5b0e2f


----------



## Louloubelle (Dec 29, 2012)

So my question to you is - are you seriously suggesting that the police should focus their limited resources on prosecuting women like those in the above story as opposed to investigating sex traffickers?  You do understand that the police service is facing massive cuts and that, even were that not so, the police do not have unlimited resources.  

Can you not see how the police's and the CPS’s treatment of these women made their lives and those of other sex workers more dangerous? 

Do you believe that endangering the lives and safety of vulnerable sex workers is a price worth paying to promote your agenda?



el-ahrairah said:


> The way I see it, your theories on prostitution in end protect a large amount pimps and abusers and rapists as a side effect of protecting those women who are going it alone.




How does decriminalisation protect pimps and abusers? Decriminalisation is a policy that can be implemented in a legal framework that delivers harsh punishments for people convicted of trafficking, rape and other abuses.  Decriminalisation does not mean that rape, child abuse and human trafficking suddenly all become legal activities.  

You can no more rescue sex workers from prostitution by criminalising sex work than you can rescue drug users from drugs via prohibition.  



el-ahrairah said:


> Perhaps I should post up a load of my clients' stories and present the rape and abuse they suffered in brothels as being the natural outcome to your pro-brothel stance.




You are considering using the (presumably confidential) stories of your clients in order to score points in support of your argument which has made me a little bit sick in my mouth.  

Nobody said that women don't get abused in brothels, so please don't attempt to construct straw men in this respect.  The fact is that, for women who choose to sell sex, working cooperatively with colleagues is the safest way to work.  A brothel can be a comparatively safe place or a very dangerous place depending on a range of factors. The PP agenda of supporting indiscriminate raids on all brothels “because some women working there might be trafficked” is irrational and endangers sex workers.

Raids should be intelligence lead and focussed on stopping traffickers, not on raiding brothels where there is no intel to suggest trafficking or other abuses.  The police do not have infinite resources and it is appalling to promote the idea that police resources should be focussed on widespread raids of brothels when there is no intelligence indicating THB or other abuses and when such raids force sex worker to work in dangerous environments either alone in a flat or on the streets. 





el-ahrairah said:


> By the way, I note that earlier in the thread we were assured that trafficked women were reported to the police by local prostitutes as it was bad for business, the punters always being happier with a ten pound rape than a consensual twenty pound fuck - classy fuckers, but now we discover that if they do report it to the police they run the risk of being nicked.




Oh of course. Sex workers would never report concerns about trafficking to the cops because they were concerned about the trafficking victims. They only do it because it is bad for business.    I suppose that they must be the “bad” sex workers, the traitors against their gender(a PP staff member described women who choose to sell sex in this way to me), and not the “good” former sex workers who support the PP.  They probably have “teh bad aids” too. 



el-ahrairah said:


> And we might harm the nice middle class boutique brothel but we'll protect a lot of very vulnerable people that aren't being protected at the moment.




Except what you are proposing does not protect anyone and only makes things more dangerous for people who work in the sex industry.


----------



## Louloubelle (Dec 29, 2012)

leanderman said:


> exactly, which is why it may best to legalise (and try to control this nefariousness)!


 
I disagree. Legalised prostitution is a terrible idea and does not protect vulnerable people from traffickers.

Decriminalisation of sex work with a range of legislative changes to increase sentencing for sex traffickers and those who sexually exploit and traffic minors is the way forward.

We also need legislative and policy changes in relation to coercion and deception when used to groom and recruit trafficking victims. This is a delicate issue as trafficked people do not always realise that they have been trafficked and, as happens with domestic violence cases, the CPS and police should be able to take action against pimps even in the situations where the victim is unwilling to give evidence against the trafficker (as often happens with the "loverboy" model of trafficking).


----------



## Gramsci (Dec 29, 2012)

Louloubelle said:


> I disagree. Legalised prostitution is a terrible idea and does not protect vulnerable people from traffickers.
> 
> Decriminalisation of sex work with a range of legislative changes to increase sentencing for sex traffickers and those who sexually exploit and traffic minors is the way forward.
> 
> We also need legislative and policy changes in relation to coercion and deception when used to groom and recruit trafficking victims. This is a delicate issue as trafficked people do not always realise that they have been trafficked and, as happens with domestic violence cases, the CPS and police should be able to take action against pimps even in the situations where the victim is unwilling to give evidence against the trafficker (as often happens with the "loverboy" model of trafficking).


 
The debate has a history going back to Victorian times. I have not read this book but have but it seems still has things to say to the present. In particular the Christian right involvement in this licensing application. 

Article by Walkowitz here that covers the issues in the book.




> What are the moral lessons to these moral crusades? If there is a moral lesson, it is that commercial sex as a locus of sexual violence against women is a hot and dangerous issue for feminists.... Yet this anger was easily subverted into repressive campaigns against male vice and sexual variation, controlled by men and conservative interests whose goals were antithetical to the values and ideals of feminism.
> Yet this leaves us with a central dilemma: how to devise an effective as strategy to combat sexual violence and humiliation in our society,..... But we have to be aware of the painful contradictions of our sexual strategy, not only for the sex workers who still regard commercial sex as the "best paid industry" available to them, but also for ourselves as feminists. We must take care not to play into the hands of the New Right or the Moral Majority, who are only too delighted to cast women as victims requiring male protection and control, and who desire to turn feminist protest into a politics of repression.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Dec 31, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> I have read Louloubelle posts with interest. She clearly has knowledge of this subject. To say that she does not like Eaves on a personal level is just an insult.


 

One which she clarifies later on as being true. 

And just to clarify a point:  Eaves PEER project contains interviews wth hundreds of sex workers.  Interviews done by them.  http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rc...gcMIIZgeY8jzQ&bvm=bv.1355534169,d.d2k&cad=rja


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## el-ahrairah (Dec 31, 2012)

leanderman said:


> exactly, which is why it may best to legalise (and try to control this nefariousness)!


 

but that will only increase the amount of trafficking.  here is a link to a short review of stats where legalisation has occured http://action.web.ca/home/catw/read...A_EX_Session=2db22eba258fb561da04e9fda27bbc28


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## el-ahrairah (Dec 31, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> So do you think that Lap Dancing bars be banned completely?
> 
> Secondly. If sex work is criminalised would that include men who sell sex to other men?
> 
> And what about women who sex work is being a Dominatrix? How does this kind of sex work fit into your view of sex work as abuse?


 

1.  yes, in my opinion.

2.  i am concerned with social and cultural issues regarding violence against women and the way women are treated in society.  as such i am not overly concerned with this issue and will leave opinions on that to others. 

3.  again, not an area in which i have many opinions.  i'm way more concerned with the important issues.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Dec 31, 2012)

Louloubelle said:


> 1..So my question to you is - are you seriously suggesting that the police should focus their limited resources on prosecuting women like those in the above story as opposed to investigating sex traffickers? You do understand that the police service is facing massive cuts and that, even were that not so, the police do not have unlimited resources.
> 
> 2. Can you not see how the police's and the CPS’s treatment of these women made their lives and those of other sex workers more dangerous?
> 
> ...


 

Ignoring all the insults, no wait, i won't..
1.  No.  You're the one who brought up that story, it has nothing whatsoever to do with anything else on this thread except that you brought it up and keep telling me that i am n favour of trafficking when i am explicitly against it.

2.  Yes.  That's why I want legislative change.

3. i don't want to criminalise sex work.  you keep telling me i do but i don't.  i want to criminalise the buying of sex and to provide support to those women who need exit strategies. 

4.  massive fucking roll eyes.  fuck off with your mis-representation.  tbh that appears to be your main form of attack on the internet.  no stats, just mis-representation of other people.

5.  will come back to this when i have a response to an email i just sent.

6.  fuck off again, it's on this very thread.  you can't have it both ways.  also, grow up.  i doubt you've ever met anyone from PP or Eaves in your life you weird fantasist.

7.  we've established you haven't got a clue about what i'm proposing.  could you provide some stats to back up your critique of the Nordic Model.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Dec 31, 2012)

the funny thing is that actually llb and i are probably the closest in agreement on this thread.  whilst it may be very unfashionable in modern feminism to see sex work as bad for women as a whole (whilst often bad for women individually it can be very good for some) i'm afraid that i don't see it like that!  wrt to whole place where radical feminism meets christian values, you might as well point out that neither the Taliban nor vegetarians eat pork.  Yes, they want similar things but for very different reasons and people who try and lump them together are just idiots.  many disparate philosophies have overlaps and this is pretty much the only place where these two meet but for some reason they get linked together.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Dec 31, 2012)

5.  I actually thought it best to quote this in full from a friend who is associated with them.  Perhaps that will help somewhat.  Although I'm sure you will find a straw man to attack her with. 

"
They doesn't support anything that would displace women from indoors onto the streets as that's not helpful, it would just be moving the issue without solving it, and putting women in a different sort of danger.

(Although I and they reject the notion that indoor prostitution is somehow safe or not harmful - in the breaking down the barriers report (http://www.eavesforwomen.org.uk/new...s-the-barriers-for-women-to-exit-prostitution) they found a lot of similar barriers and experiences for women in indoor and on-street prostitution.  We've also had women say they'd much rather work on the streets than indoors because on street he has his few minutes and then you're done, and then you can leave and go do something else, but indoors you're there with them for ages which is much more of a mindfuck.  Also indoor prostitution is really under-researched because it's more difficult to reach women working indoors.  Which I think is indicative of how much harmful stuff can be going on under everyone's noses without women being able to access any help they might need.)

Also people there generally consider it to be a bad idea for frontline workers to go in with police in order to reach women in prostitution, as this makes it difficult to have a trusting relationship (understandably considering the amount of hassle women in prostitution get from the police), so while some organisations do have support workers going in on brothel visits (far more common than raids, although raids of course do happen, but not very often - police tend to only raid if they have had a lot of residents complaining, or if they have actual info about the brothel - most brothels tend to get left alone or just visited, since the police don't spend resources on something that they don't feel is causing a "public nuisance" - which is why most police forces tend to be horrible to women in street prostitution) most think it's a bad idea, and try and go in independently of police if they do go. I don't know whether our frontline workers go into brothels though (I'll ask my friend who is one).

Their approach is focused on supporting women who have experienced violence, including those who are in prostitution, providing exit strategies for those who want them (and raising the issue of whether someone might like to exit is not the same as telling people to exit, no matter what certain people might say - nobody is obliged to or pushed to exit in order to get support) and campaigning to a) make sure that councils provide specialist services geared to women in prostitution and b) trying to make sure councils' policing approach focusses on penalising punters and NOT the women.

A really big misapprehension is that people who are pro penalising punters must somehow be pro penalising the women.  They are strongly pro-decriminalisation of women in prostitution, and is pro the erasure of charges for loitering/soliciting (which counts as a sex offence, and means that women who exit prostitution with charges for loitering/soliciting will not be able to work in any job that requires a CRB disclosure, and will not be able to travel outside the EU. Obviously this is totally unfair and ridiculous.)

This is a long response but it's an issue that a lot of people misunderstand so I thought it best to be comprehensive. "


----------



## Louloubelle (Dec 31, 2012)

el-ahrairah said:


> One which she clarifies later on as being true.
> 
> And just to clarify a point: Eaves PEER project contains interviews wth hundreds of sex workers. Interviews done by them. http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CDcQFjAA&url=http://www.biglotteryfund.org.uk/er_event2110_10_isolation_eaves_housing.pdf&ei=-1nhULmmPKya1AWf1IHYDA&usg=AFQjCNGbDSGgkrTQ_uZilZLlk_oQl-kOMg&sig2=c7G7xdSLSgcMIIZgeY8jzQ&bvm=bv.1355534169,d.d2k&cad=rja


 
What independent research (as in not done by Eaves) has been conducted to assess the satisfaction (or not) of Eaves services by the sex workers who have used the project?


----------



## el-ahrairah (Dec 31, 2012)

haven't the foggiest.  how about the figures to back up your argument before shifting the argument elsewhere?


----------



## Louloubelle (Dec 31, 2012)

el-ahrairah said:


> Ignoring all the insults, no wait, i won't..
> 1. No. You're the one who brought up that story, it has nothing whatsoever to do with anything else on this thread except that you brought it up and keep telling me that i am n favour of trafficking when i am explicitly against it.


 
It has everything to do with this issue.

Please just answer the question - do you believe that police resources should be used on indiscriminate, non intelligence lead raids on brothels like the one referred to in my link?



el-ahrairah said:


> 2. Yes. That's why I want legislative change.
> 
> 3. i don't want to criminalise sex work. you keep telling me i do but i don't. i want to criminalise the buying of sex and to provide support to those women who need exit strategies.


 
so, just to clarify, as it is unclear from your posts
do you support the decriminalisation of sex work? - a yes or no answer will suffice.

You support legislative change to make it illegal to purchase sex - even though sex workers claim that this will make their lives more dangerous. Please note that it is already illegal to knowingly purchase sex from a person who has been trafficked, so you are advocating criminalising consensual sexual acts between adults.




el-ahrairah said:


> 4. massive fucking roll eyes. fuck off with your mis-representation. tbh that appears to be your main form of attack on the internet. no stats, just mis-representation of other people.


 
You are the one who came up with the idea of posting up confidential material to support your argument. I am not misrepresenting you at all, unless of course you have some other, non-confidential source of material, you could always clarify this. 



el-ahrairah said:


> 5. will come back to this when i have a response to an email i just sent.
> 
> 6. fuck off again, it's on this very thread. you can't have it both ways. also, grow up. i doubt you've ever met anyone from PP or Eaves in your life you weird fantasist.


 
The truth will emerge one day.  




el-ahrairah said:


> 7. we've established you haven't got a clue about what i'm proposing. could you provide some stats to back up your critique of the Nordic Model.


 
We have established nothing because you are being evasive. 
I am unable to post stats here as the issue is extremely sensitive, however I am happy to provide some information to one of the mods or to a known poster who works in law enforcement, the latter might be a better option.


----------



## Louloubelle (Dec 31, 2012)

el-ahrairah said:


> haven't the foggiest. how about the figures to back up your argument before shifting the argument elsewhere?


 
So there is no research, to your knowledge, of how trafficked women feel about their experiences with Eaves?  
Well there's an interesting job for someone to do there.  I have had to make do with anecdotal reports which suggest that this is a piece of research that is long overdue.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Dec 31, 2012)

Louloubelle said:


> It has everything to do with this issue.
> 
> Please just answer the question - do you believe that police resources should be used on indiscriminate, non intelligence lead raids on brothels like the one referred to in my link?
> 
> ...


 
1. already answered that bit. the bit when i said No.

I support decriminalisation of selling sex and the criminalisation of buying sex. I support this because the evidence suggests to me that the Nordic Model is the one that reduces most the danger to women. It may be illegal to knowingly purchase sex from a trafficked person but most people can't tell and punters don't care. go read punternet. they couldn't give a fuck.

how the fuck am i being evasive? you're the one with secret special knowledge who continually asks for stats but doesn't post anything except anecdotes.

you're taking the piss, jog on with your weird secret evidence.


----------



## toggle (Dec 31, 2012)

Louloubelle said:


> You support legislative change to make it illegal to purchase sex - even though sex workers claim that this will make their lives more dangerous. n.


 
not sure if this has been mentioned, but there is significant historical precedent to suggest that any legislation in this country designed to reduce sex work, even if ti's original intent was to protect vulnerable women, ends up with punative action against them. (freind of mine is studying the history of policing in plymouth)


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## el-ahrairah (Dec 31, 2012)

Louloubelle said:


> So there is no research, to your knowledge, of how trafficked women feel about their experiences with Eaves?
> Well there's an interesting job for someone to do there. I have had to make do with anecdotal reports which suggest that this is a piece of research that is long overdue.


 
more of your anecdotes.  i'm not allowed to be influenced by the experiences of clients i work with but your anecdotes are allowed to slander me and those who you have decided you are in opposition to.


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## el-ahrairah (Dec 31, 2012)

toggle said:


> not sure if this has been mentioned, but there is significant historical precedent to suggest that any legislation in this country designed to reduce sex work, even if ti's original intent was to protect vulnerable women, ends up with punative action against them. (freind of mine is studying the history of policing in plymouth)


 
always easier to blame the women than the society i guess


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## Louloubelle (Dec 31, 2012)

OK

I agree with you that decriminalisation is the way forward - I don't think that any policy is perfect, but it is the one that is least harmful to sex workers and to society.

FWIW Eaves (unless they have changed their policy recently) do not support decriminalisation as it is in-congruent with their policy that all sex work is violence towards women.

Of course I have read the field reports on punternet and punterlink. Some of the punters come across as disgusting people but some (shock horror) are concerned about trafficking. Some of the punters and some of the WGs have known each other for years and seem to genuinely like each other. I am saying this NOT because I believe that all punters are lovely people who help little old ladies across the road and are kind to animals (or whatever) but because the blanket portrayal of all men who pay for sex as lust consumed beasts who do not care about trafficking is contradicted by the fact that so much intelligence is gained from punters who report concerns about trafficking to the police.

I take back my accusation of you being evasive, having read your last but one post, which I had not read when I posted my earlier one.

I have to go out soon but I can post some links that support the fact that many sex workers are adamant that they oppose the criminalisation of paying for sex. I used to work at an NHS project working with sex workers and I have discussed this issue with dozens (probably a couple of hundred) of women, many of whom work on the streets. In fact the local council and police had a number of curb crawling blitzes while I was working there and the risk to women working on the streets increased dramatically during these times. I can post more later


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## el-ahrairah (Dec 31, 2012)

i'd be interested in those stats.


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## Louloubelle (Dec 31, 2012)

toggle said:


> not sure if this has been mentioned, but there is significant historical precedent to suggest that any legislation in this country designed to reduce sex work, even if ti's original intent was to protect vulnerable women, ends up with punative action against them. (freind of mine is studying the history of policing in plymouth)


 
Gramscis's earlier post and links covered this issue and sadly there is a long history of (often well meaning) groups advocating legislative changes to "rescue" sex workers that end up oppressing them.  This is my concern re changes to criminalise the purchasing of sex - will post more re this later.


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## toggle (Dec 31, 2012)

el-ahrairah said:


> always easier to blame the women than the society i guess


 

absolutely.

one of the big things was always saying that women needed protecting, even if they didn't think they needed protecting. the authorities and moral campaigners always knew better than ther women themselves. IIRC, legalisation is a form of this. women in legal brothels are 'managed' in a manner that seems to me more designed to protect the punter than them and women outside are worse off.it is stated as being 'oh so progressive' whenit just isn't.



but I think there is also a point to make that the variety of expereinces of sex workers both in their work and with organisations that purport to help them, have had. sex workers aren't a monoculture. and it makes sence to me that sex workers who fundamentally disagree with the ethos of a particular group are less likely to be assisting in their research. they will give their stories to to someone else. no group with a pre existing and clearly stated aim is going to get unbiased info.


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## Louloubelle (Dec 31, 2012)

el-ahrairah said:


> more of your anecdotes. i'm not allowed to be influenced by the experiences of clients i work with but your anecdotes are allowed to slander me and those who you have decided you are in opposition to.


 
I think you will find that suggesting that research is conducted to assess trafficked clients' satisfaction (or not) with Eaves and the PP is not slander.  

As I said, I only have anecdotal reports to go on and independent research should be the way forward.


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## TopCat (Dec 31, 2012)

bluestreak said:


> Louloubelle, I know a number of people who do the research at Eaves and I can assure you that their research methodology and stats aim to be as accurate as possible. I trust their figures way more than I trust your word. Seeing as you have pre-emptively suggested that their figures are wrong, perhaps you could provide me with the evidence that Eaves falsify their figures. The Poppy Project are widely trusted and considered a good source doing good deeds, providing support to trafficked women with No Right To Public Funds. Perhaps you could explain why this is a bad thing?


The poppy project talk out of their arses.


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## Louloubelle (Dec 31, 2012)

TopCat said:


> The poppy project talk out of their arses.


 
I have a lot of problems with the PP but I don't think that it's helpful to make this kind of comment. 

IME the women there are arrogant, matronising and closed minded but they do have their hearts in the right place.   They want to help trafficked women even if they sometimes end up advocating policies that would harm them. 

Personally I would prefer it if you spoke more about your concerns re the PP, and try to keep it non-insulting or the thread will turn into a trade of insults rather than a potentially useful discussion.


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## High Voltage (Dec 31, 2012)

Just got to say that this is one of, if not, THE most interesting, level headed (mostly) discussions that I've read on Urban in a goodly while - I've genuinely learned a lot about a subject I know SFA about - there appears to be several people who "know their shit" contributing to this thread - I doubt we'll end up with consensus as this is a massively complex and nuanced subject, but damn, it's making me think - so thanks all involved


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## TopCat (Dec 31, 2012)

Louloubelle said:


> I have a lot of problems with the PP but I don't think that it's helpful to make this kind of comment.
> 
> IME the women there are arrogant, matronising and closed minded but they do have their hearts in the right place. They want to help trafficked women even if they sometimes end up advocating policies that would harm them.
> 
> Personally I would prefer it if you spoke more about your concerns re the PP, and try to keep it non-insulting or the thread will turn into a trade of insults rather than a potentially useful discussion.


 
Your preferences, whilst deeply felt are not mine. 

The poppy project are a dangerous bunch. They decided long ago what their political position is and all their so called research (looking at punternet) focuses on justifying said entrenched positions. The Reclaim the Night marches are a good example of their so called "hearts in the right places". Picketing brothels and shouting abuse at sex workers? Middle class women unable to relate to their working class counterparts more like.


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## Louloubelle (Dec 31, 2012)

ahh

reclaim the night .....

yes

some old but interesting threads on that exact issue 

http://www.urban75.net/forums/search/18023671/?q=reclaim+the+night&o=date&c[title_only]=1

anyone with a few hours to spare might want to read some of them


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## el-ahrairah (Dec 31, 2012)

TopCat said:


> Your preferences, whilst deeply felt are not mine.
> 
> The poppy project are a dangerous bunch. They decided long ago what their political position is and all their so called research (looking at punternet) focuses on justifying said entrenched positions. The Reclaim the Night marches are a good example of their so called "hearts in the right places". Picketing brothels and shouting abuse at sex workers? Middle class women unable to relate to their working class counterparts more like.


 
I suspect that if you called Julie Bindel middle class to her face you'd come off worse.  Are you saying that only working class women are prostitutes.  I thought we established earlier that middle class women were sex workers too.

Could you tell me more about the brothel pickets, I am interested in this.  I will read those threads, but i couldn't find anything with a quick google.


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## TopCat (Dec 31, 2012)

el-ahrairah said:


> I suspect that if you called Julie Bindel middle class to her face you'd come off worse. Are you saying that only working class women are prostitutes. I thought we established earlier that middle class women were sex workers too.
> 
> Could you tell me more about the brothel pickets, I am interested in this. I will read those threads, but i couldn't find anything with a quick google.


I would call Julie Bindel a few things including middle class but more likely would opt first and foremost for _bigot_. 

Here is a bit about her attitude to transgender people. 
"A month later a piece, "Gender Benders, beware" was printed in _The Guardian_ concerning her anger about a rape crisis centre's dispute with a transsexual rape counselor; the article also expressed her views about transsexuals and transsexualism.[44] Many considered the language used to be offensive and demeaning. _The Guardian_ received more than two hundred letters of complaint from transsexual people, doctors, therapists, academics and others. Transgender activist group Press for Change cite this article as an example of 'discriminatory writing' about transsexual people in the press.[46] Complaints focussed on the title, "Gender benders, beware", the cartoon[47] accompanying the piece,[48] and the disparaging tone, such as "Think about a world inhabited just by transsexuals. It would look like the set of _Grease_" and "I don't have a problem with men disposing of their genitals, but it does not make them women, in the same way that shoving a bit of vacuum hose down your 501s [jeans] does not make you a man."[44]


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## el-ahrairah (Dec 31, 2012)

from a review of 2009's march "As has become tradition, Spearmint Rhino was the temporary focus of a slow-down of activity. But alongside the now traditional "women are not for sale" chants, there was also a demonstration for sex workers' rights to work and work in safety."  closest they got there.

didn't happen on 2012's march.

i'm reading the one from 2011 where llb and TC repeat that this happens "every year" but provide no evidence.  why the fuck are you lying about this?


----------



## el-ahrairah (Dec 31, 2012)

TopCat said:


> I would call Julie Bindel a few things including middle class but more likely would opt first and foremost for _bigot_.
> 
> Here is a bit about her attitude to transgender people.
> "A month later a piece, "Gender Benders, beware" was printed in _The Guardian_ concerning her anger about a rape crisis centre's dispute with a transsexual rape counselor; the article also expressed her views about transsexuals and transsexualism.[44] Many considered the language used to be offensive and demeaning. _The Guardian_ received more than two hundred letters of complaint from transsexual people, doctors, therapists, academics and others. Transgender activist group Press for Change cite this article as an example of 'discriminatory writing' about transsexual people in the press.[46] Complaints focussed on the title, "Gender benders, beware", the cartoon[47] accompanying the piece,[48] and the disparaging tone, such as "Think about a world inhabited just by transsexuals. It would look like the set of _Grease_" and "I don't have a problem with men disposing of their genitals, but it does not make them women, in the same way that shoving a bit of vacuum hose down your 501s [jeans] does not make you a man."[44]


 
that she may be but she's no more middle class than you or i.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 31, 2012)

el-ahrairah said:


> from a review of 2009's march "As has become tradition, Spearmint Rhino was the temporary focus of a slow-down of activity. But alongside the now traditional "women are not for sale" chants, there was also a demonstration for sex workers' rights to work and work in safety." closest they got there.
> 
> didn't happen on 2012's march.
> 
> i'm reading the one from 2011 where llb and TC repeat that this happens "every year" but provide no evidence. why the fuck are you lying about this?


 
What am I _lying_ about?


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## TopCat (Dec 31, 2012)

el-ahrairah said:


> that she may be but she's no more middle class than you or i.


I don't know about you but I did not have her education for a start. Nor do I earn my money writing for the Guardian etc etc.


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## el-ahrairah (Dec 31, 2012)

TopCat said:


> I don't know about you but I did not have her education for a start. Nor do I earn my money writing for the Guardian etc etc.


 
apparently she went to that bastion of privilege, london metropolitan.  and you know the guardian only employ her as clickbait because she winds up liberals.


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## el-ahrairah (Dec 31, 2012)

in 2006 you said this, so it's earlier than that.  your criticisms are pretty out of date tbh.  doesn't seem to happened since.
I wonder if yet again there will be a clash of cultures on the night? For several years there has been a hoo har between women working in the sex industry in W1 and the women on this march.​


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## el-ahrairah (Dec 31, 2012)

TopCat said:


> What am I _lying_ about?


 


TopCat said:


> Picketing brothels and shouting abuse at sex workers?


 
plus plenty of assertations on RTN threads that they picket brothels and abuse sex workers and that this is the point.

as far as i can tell these are lies.  i can find no record of this having taken place, though i can't find anything online earlier than 2006 so far.

i will, of course, take it back when i can see some evidence.


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## el-ahrairah (Dec 31, 2012)

"Reclaim the Night was revived in 2004 by Finn Mackay, Isabel Eden and Becca Morden. Every woman on the march was moved at the size of the crowd who had assembled to show their support for the survivors of rape that number more than 50,000 every year in the UK. The marches arrived to take up space on the streets without fear and to demand the basic human right to safety from male violence."

So these pickets of brothels and abuse on sex workers could only have happened in 2004 or 2005.  these are the "several years" referred to by TopCat in 2006.

I'm so glad I don't have a lot of work to do today


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## Louloubelle (Dec 31, 2012)

TC is correct about RTN picketing brothels and causing problems for sex workers. It happened for a number of years although I honestly do not know if their policy has changed. At some point in the early days of RTN the picketing turned into actual physical violence and street fighting between RTN and sex workers. I did not witness this personally but was told about it from sex workers who were there 1st hand.  The serious violence (and it was serious) IMMIC happened in soho where women were working in flats and also in clubs.  

Some women expressed concern that for pimped women (this was before the days when the word trafficking was used) would be punished by their pimps for not making money that night and that pickets by RTN would not be considered a good enough excuse for not making money.  

The pickets were a prime example of "do gooders" endangering the vulnerable people they claimed to be rescuing. 

One very nasty aspect of this was reading a newsletter by the ECP (another group who I have little time for) who warned the RTN women to be careful of community / mob violence in relation to the protests. The printed leaflet I saw contained a horrifying grainy photo of mob punishment by "necklacing" in South Africa in order to illustrate their point.

Ugly, despicable behaviour from both sides of the divide. This was a long time ago, late 80s - early 90s.


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## Louloubelle (Dec 31, 2012)

el-ahrairah said:


> I'm so glad I don't have a lot of work to do today


 
There is at least one, possibly more, threads here on RTN where the issue of RTN picketing lad dancing clubs and brothels was discussed.  The search function is your friend.


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## el-ahrairah (Dec 31, 2012)

if it happened, it happened in the 70s it looks like, i can only fnd reference to anything like that relating to 1977.  different group running it along way more liberal lines today.  even julie bindel and the radicals don't see the sex workers as the enemies IME.  and i wouldn't put it past the pimps at the ECP to do anything, they'd be a dangerous bunch.


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## el-ahrairah (Dec 31, 2012)

Louloubelle said:


> There is at least one, possibly more, threads here on RTN where the issue of RTN picketing lad dancing clubs and brothels was discussed. The search function is your friend.


 
i have done.  it's all just you and TC saying it happens without making it clear that it happened a long time ago when a different bunch of people organised it.


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## TopCat (Dec 31, 2012)

el-ahrairah said:


> if it happened, it happened in the 70s it looks like, i can only fnd reference to anything like that relating to 1977. different group running it along way more liberal lines today. even julie bindel and the radicals don't see the sex workers as the enemies IME. and i wouldn't put it past the pimps at the ECP to do anything, they'd be a dangerous bunch.


"If I can't find stuff on the interweb it did not happen".


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## Louloubelle (Dec 31, 2012)

Well I started my activism against trafficking in the mid 1980s. The violent incident I am referring to happened sometime between 1985 and 1992 - which was approximately when I was working for the NHS


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## el-ahrairah (Dec 31, 2012)

TopCat said:


> "If I can't find stuff on the interweb it did not happen".


 
give me something to work with at least.  if we assumed every anecdote on urban was god's own truth and 100% accurate we'd be in a lot of trouble.


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## Louloubelle (Dec 31, 2012)

el-ahrairah said:


> i have done. it's all just you and TC saying it happens without making it clear that it happened a long time ago when a different bunch of people organised it.


 
not so

I cannot remember the entire content of all the threads - but I contacted women at RTN as did other posters and they refused to comment about whether there would be pickets outside brothels or other sex businesses. Surely if they had no plans to do this they just could have said so?

Also didn't they protest outside Spearmint Rhino in TCR only a year or 2 ago?

Also just how do you read and check the links of several threads, one of which is a zillion pages long, in just 10 minutes?


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## el-ahrairah (Dec 31, 2012)

Louloubelle said:


> Well I started my activism against trafficking in the mid 1980s. The violent incident I am referring to happened sometime between 1985 and 1992 - which was approximately when I was working for the NHS


 
cheers, will see if i can find anything.


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## el-ahrairah (Dec 31, 2012)

Louloubelle said:


> not so
> 
> I cannot remember the entire content of all the threads - but I contacted women at RTN as did other posters and they refused to comment about whether there would be pickets outside brothels or other sex businesses. Surely if they had no plans to do this they just could have said so?
> 
> Also didn't they protest outside Spearmint Rhino in TCR only a year or 2 ago?


 
yes, i refered to that on the other page ""As has become tradition, Spearmint Rhino was the temporary focus of a slow-down of activity. But alongside the now traditional "women are not for sale" chants, there was also a demonstration for sex workers' rights to work and work in safety"  if this is true then it's not really an attack on sex workers.  a picket on a workplace is not an attack on its workers.


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## TopCat (Dec 31, 2012)

el-ahrairah said:


> give me something to work with at least. if we assumed every anecdote on urban was god's own truth and 100% accurate we'd be in a lot of trouble.


My issue here is that some people actually have met sex workers and engaged with them, some people actually watched the antics of some or all of the RTN marches and some people actually talked with sex workers after the RTN marches and got their impressions of the same. 
Other people simply google a few times and get on their high horse shouting "liars" at people.


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## Louloubelle (Dec 31, 2012)

But the picket to support sex worker's rights was not organised by Eaves was it?


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## el-ahrairah (Dec 31, 2012)

Louloubelle said:


> But the picket to support sex worker's rights was not organised by Eaves was it?


 

nor was the march.  eaves had nothing whatsoever to do with it i don't think.  TopCat brought up RTN didn't he?  will have to check back.


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## el-ahrairah (Dec 31, 2012)

TopCat said:


> My issue here is that some people actually have met sex workers and engaged with them, some people actually watched the antics of some or all of the RTN marches and some people actually talked with sex workers after the RTN marches and got their impressions of the same.
> Other people simply google a few times and get on their high horse shouting "liars" at people.


 
i was using google to try and find the evidence you couldn't be arsed to be provide.  you know, to back up your allegations.  your ones.  now you're telling me what my own knowledge and experience is.  want to give me some evidence for that, or shall i take it on trust that you know my life as well?


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## el-ahrairah (Dec 31, 2012)

TopCat said:


> Your preferences, whilst deeply felt are not mine.
> 
> The poppy project are a dangerous bunch. They decided long ago what their political position is and all their so called research (looking at punternet) focuses on justifying said entrenched positions. The Reclaim the Night marches are a good example of their so called "hearts in the right places". Picketing brothels and shouting abuse at sex workers? Middle class women unable to relate to their working class counterparts more like.


 
ah, here we are.  this is where RTN was brought into it.


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## el-ahrairah (Dec 31, 2012)

just to clarify, RTN was not an invention of Eaves, though someone who worked for The Lilith Project which no longer exists helped to organise the 2004 one.  I understand that since then it has been run by the London Feminist Network.


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## Louloubelle (Dec 31, 2012)

However I think it is safe to say that there is a lot of crossover in the categories of women involved in the Lilith Project, Eaves and the LFN. In fact a lot of them seem to be the same women IMMIC (I did check at one point)

relevant thread re RTN here
http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/reclaim-the-night-march-provisional-details.21585/


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## el-ahrairah (Dec 31, 2012)

thanks llb.  that was an interesting read, but i don;t think it added anything you and i haven't already discussed.  not sure what you mean by categories of women though!  Eaves staff that i know tend to be hardline radfems, whilst the LFN are pretty much wet liberals. there is nothing really that connects either of them to the earlier incarnation of RTN, either in personnel or politics wrt sex work.  you say on that thread that there are thousands of trafficked women working as sex slaves in soho but that putting off the punters isn't the way to do it - i suspect that this is the case regarding temporary things such as pickets.  i imagine the pimps take out their anger on the slaves when someone gets in the way.  however there is evidence to suggest that removing demand makes women safer (cited in this article http://rabble.ca/blogs/bloggers/fem...ending-demand-works-response-noy-thrupkaew-an ).  what other ways of reducing demand do you think would be useful other than criminalising punters?  other than abolishing the patriarchy of course, which would be nice but even harder than getting some sort of accord on the the best way of protecting women involved in the sex trade.


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## Brixton Hatter (Dec 31, 2012)

el-ahrairah said:


> didn't leander road used to be a hub of the sex trade in brixton? i know that josephine avenue was and that the residents were very unhappy with the kerb crawling, and use of the gardens in JA.


Yep definitely. I have/had various friends living on Josephine Avenue and it was very noticeable around 5-8 years ago. We used to come home from the pub and occasionally find people shagging or getting blow jobs in the front gardens. The road is quite dark with lots of trees and very large front gardens - lots of cover. Finding used condoms in the garden was a regular occurrence. I think things have improved massively since they blocked up the Brixton Hill end of JA to cars.


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## Mrs Magpie (Dec 31, 2012)

Brixton Hatter said:


> Yep definitely. I have/had various friends living on Josephine Avenue and it was very noticeable around 5-8 years ago. We used to come home from the pub and occasionally find people shagging or getting blow jobs in the front gardens. The road is quite dark with lots of trees and very large front gardens - lots of cover. Finding used condoms in the garden was a regular occurrence. I think things have improved massively since they blocked up the Brixton Hill end of JA to cars.


To be honest, that's a feature of both Brixton housing estates I've lived on, except it's on the stairs, or my front porch   as well in as in the gardens. Not enough of a middle class outcry though.


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## ViolentPanda (Dec 31, 2012)

el-ahrairah said:


> 3. again, not an area in which i have many opinions. i'm way more concerned with the important issues.


 
Point of order: What you're concerned with is what *you* believe to be "the important issues". Don't make the error of thinking that your own priorities are necessarily the only "right" set of priorities. That way lies dogma.


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## ViolentPanda (Dec 31, 2012)

Brixton Hatter said:


> Yep definitely. I have/had various friends living on Josephine Avenue and it was very noticeable around 5-8 years ago. We used to come home from the pub and occasionally find people shagging or getting blow jobs in the front gardens. The road is quite dark with lots of trees and very large front gardens - lots of cover. Finding used condoms in the garden was a regular occurrence. I think things have improved massively since they blocked up the Brixton Hill end of JA to cars.


 
Early '90s, a lot of the street girls used to work the Brixton Hill corner of Water Lane. Wasn't exactly a rare sight to drive past in the early hours and see blowjobs and knee-tremblers going on in the doorways on Brixton Hill.


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## Gramsci (Dec 31, 2012)

el-ahrairah said:


> 1. yes, in my opinion.
> 
> 2. i am concerned with social and cultural issues regarding violence against women and the way women are treated in society. as such i am not overly concerned with this issue and will leave opinions on that to others.
> 
> 3. again, not an area in which i have many opinions. i'm way more concerned with the important issues.


 
my question were:



> Gramsci said: ↑
> So do you think that Lap Dancing bars be banned completely?​​Secondly. If sex work is criminalised would that include men who sell sex to other men?​​And what about women who sex work is being a Dominatrix? How does this kind of sex work fit into your view of sex work as abuse?​


​​If sex work is to be criminalised re the Nordic Model ( the buyer of sex that is) then this would cover all sex work- I assume. If I am wrong on this and certain categories of sex workers are exempted let me know. To say you have no opinions on Q2 and 3 is not good enough. You have said you support the Nordic Model.

Therefore I ask a slightly different question re your support of the Nordic Model.

Do you accept that men who sell sex ( to men and women) and women who work as Dominatrix will be covered by the Nordic model which criminalises the person (male or female )who buys sex?

Also you say in response to Q2



> as such i am not overly concerned with this issue and will leave opinions on that to others.


 
Well you ought to be. Laws criminalising sex work would have to cover men buying sex from other men. If that was not the intention of the law it would inevitably be used as such- mission creep in how police use laws is common. Also ( the limited number) of women who hire male escorts. Also looking at the history ( see my #297) the Victorian moral campaign against prostitution ended up with further repression of gays encoded in law.


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## Gramsci (Dec 31, 2012)

toggle said:


> not sure if this has been mentioned, but there is significant historical precedent to suggest that any legislation in this country designed to reduce sex work, even if ti's original intent was to protect vulnerable women, ends up with punative action against them. (freind of mine is studying the history of policing in plymouth)


 
covered the history a bit in my post #297

Plymouth is a Navy and Fishing port and was covered by the Victorian "Contagious Diseases act". The essay by the Feminist historian Walkowitz is worth a read as all the issues are relevant here. There are no easy answers. The article shows the complex politics of class, women and sexuality. Which are, as now, interrelated. For example this:



> What was the outcome of the "Maiden Tribute" affair? The public furor over the "Maiden Tribute" forced the passage of the Criminal Law Amendment Act of 1885, a particularly nasty and pernicious piece of omnibus legislation. The 1885 act raised the age of consent for girls from thirteen to sixteen, but it also gave police far greater summary jurisdiction over poor working-class women and children - a trend that Butler and her circle had always opposed. Finally, it contained a clause making indecent acts between consenting male adults a crime, thus forming the basis of legal prosecution of male homosexuals in Britain until 1967. An anti-aristocratic bias may have prompted the inclusion of this clause (reformers accepted its inclusion but did not themselves propose it), as homosexuality was associated with the corruption of working-class youth by the same upper-class profligates who, on other were thought to buy the services of young girls.
> Despite the public outcry against corrupt aristocrats and international traffickers, the clauses of the new bill were mainly enforced against working-class women, and regulated adult rather than youthful sexual behavior. Between 1890 and 1914, the systematic repression of lodging-house brothels was carried out in almost every major city in Great Britain. In many locales, legal repression dramatically affected the structure and organization of prostitution. Prostitutes were uprooted from their neighborhoods and forced to find lodgings in other areas of the city. Their activity became more covert and furtive. Cut off from any other sustaining relationship, they were forced to rely increasingly on pimps for emotional security as well as protection against legal authorities. Indeed, with the wide prevalence of pimps in the early twentieth century, prostitution shifted from a female- to a male- dominated trade. Further, there now existed a greater number of third parties with a strong interest in prolonging women's stay on the streets. In these and other respects, the 1885 act drove a wedge between prostitutes and the poor working-class community. It effectively destroyed the brothel as a family industry and a center of a specific female subculture, further undermined the social and economic autonomy of prostitutes; and increasingly rendered them social outcast


 

History of policing in Plymouth. Interesting topic. I was born and grew up in the Barbican. Barbican and Devonport were pretty notorious areas. Barbican was hard drinking area and Devonport had "adult entertainment". If your friend is studying policing needs to look at Military police as well. As they were around a lot. Usually picking drunken sailors off the pavement, chucking them in van and putting them on there ships. Or stopping big punchs up in the streets between sailors. Police were known to have pitched battles with them occasionally . Never bothered me as they only fought each other. Ha Ha Without glamourising it the Barbican was close knit community. I can so how its easy for moral campaigners to look at area like I grew up in from outside as in need of saving. But for those who lived there it was seen differently.


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## Gramsci (Dec 31, 2012)

Been trying to look up research on Nordic Model that is critical.

Found this So the results of using this model are not clear cut as advocates imply.

This review is interesting study of sex work in India and overview of debates.

Googled the University and seems to be reputable academic institution.

Also this recent Guardian report says that politicians here ( no word from present Government yet) are seriously looking at urging Government to bring Nordic model here.


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## toggle (Dec 31, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> covered the history a bit in my post #297
> 
> Plymouth is a Navy and Fishing port and was covered by the Victorian "Contagious Diseases act". The essay by the Feminist historian Walkowitz is worth a read as all the issues are relevant here. There are no easy answers. The article shows the complex politics of class, women and sexuality. Which are, as now, interrelated. For example this:
> 
> ...


 
I reserved that a week or so ago, waiting for it to be back in the library.


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## Gramsci (Dec 31, 2012)

toggle said:


> I reserved that a week or so ago, waiting for it to be back in the library.


 
I was going to ask if its in the Tate Library Brixton but I see ur from down my way. 

City of Dreadful Night by her is good.


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## toggle (Dec 31, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> I was going to ask if its in the Tate Library Brixton but I see ur from down my way.
> 
> City of Dreadful Night by her is good.


 
yep.

that will be plymouth uni library.


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## Gramsci (Dec 31, 2012)

toggle said:


> yep.
> 
> that will be plymouth uni library.


 
Say hello from me to the Seagulls.  I miss them. And real Pasties not the West Cornwall Pasty company rubbish you get up here. Your a long way from home on Brixton Board. How is it in the sleepy South?.


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## leanderman (Jan 1, 2013)

Actually, West Cornwall Pasty Company pasties are better than most of the pasties you find in Cornwall (and I was born there) [he interjects realising he is out of his depth in this thread] {further realising that he has been 'dragged' into strip clubs in the past}


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## Gramsci (Jan 1, 2013)

leanderman said:


> Actually, West Cornwall Pasty Company pasties are better than most of the pasties you find in Cornwall (and I was born there) [he interjects realising he is out of his depth in this thread] {further realising that he has been 'dragged' into strip clubs in the past}


 
The best pasties were from the bakery in the Barbican Plymouth were I grew up. That is Devon Pasties not Cornish. Same goes for fish and chips.

West Cornwall Pasty company. Set up with help of EU money to provide jobs to deprived area of Cornwall and then sets up shops in London.

What is "West" Cornwall anyway?

Happy New Year

Oh well better get back to thread subject after new year interval break. Back to Lap Dancing now


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## toggle (Jan 1, 2013)

snorts. actually, best pasties i've had were from a little place near helston. i don't tend to eat the ones from the big processers. i've worked for one.

and west cornwall pasties are not made in west cornwall, they are made in lanhydrock, eastern end of pydar. most people consider the west to be penwith and kerrier.

very sleepy down here in some ways. the woman selling red lace knickers and vibrators gets picketed.


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## Nanker Phelge (Jan 1, 2013)

A thred about baps turns into a thread about pasties.

Urbans aint changed in 2013.


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## Gramsci (Jan 1, 2013)

toggle said:


> very sleepy down here in some ways. the woman selling red lace knickers and vibrators gets picketed.


 
You are joking? Who by if its not a joke?


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## paolo (Jan 1, 2013)

Nanker Phelge said:


> A thred about baps turns into a thread about pasties.
> 
> Urbans aint changed in 2013.


 
I once saw a "what toaster should I buy?" thread descend into the OP being called a c*nt after about 10 posts, on the basis of the toaster they were thinking of buying.


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## toggle (Jan 1, 2013)

Gramsci said:


> You are joking? Who by if its not a joke?


 
local god bothers. catholic ones i think. it's just a very tame sex shop. gawds knows what anyone picketing it would think fo soho.

i didn't know the place was there until i read about the protests in the local papers, and made a point when i went in there of telling her how well it had worked as advertising.


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## toggle (Jan 1, 2013)

Nanker Phelge said:


> A thred about baps turns into a thread about pasties.
> 
> Urbans aint changed in 2013.


 


Spoiler: pasties


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## Gramsci (Jan 1, 2013)

toggle said:


> local god bothers. catholic ones i think. it's just a very tame sex shop. gawds knows what anyone picketing it would think fo soho.
> 
> i didn't know the place was there until i read about the protests in the local papers, and made a point when i went in there of telling her how well it had worked as advertising.


 
Plenty of work for them to do in Soho. Dont think you would see this in shop window in South West. Love the shoe btw






Old Compton street@ Gay Pride






And she would have the God Botherers in apoplexy (Old Compton street).Especially as she is hot. 






What the ban everything brigade forget is that "deviant" sexualities find a safe place in what are considered seedy red light areas like Soho.

Once Christian Concern and the like have got rid of Lap Dancing its Gays next.


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## Gramsci (Jan 1, 2013)

I like your taste in pasties. 

@toggle


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## T & P (Jan 2, 2013)

paolo said:


> I once saw a "what toaster should I buy?" thread descend into the OP being called a c*nt after about 10 posts, on the basis of the toaster they were thinking of buying.


 Was it an Apple toaster?


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## Frumious B. (Jan 3, 2013)

Manter said:


> I've had time to think, re-read these, and I'm now furiously angry.


 
Don't worry. If you'd read more of his posts in other threads you'd know he's just a nitwit with an apparent mental age of 13. I ignore him, unless other people pick up on his drivel.


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## Manter (Jan 3, 2013)

Frumious B. said:


> Don't worry. If you'd read more of his posts in other threads you'd know he's just a nitwit with an apparent mental age of 13. I ignore him, unless other people pick up on his drivel.


Thankyou. I was a bit upset at the time!


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## toggle (Jan 16, 2013)

Gramsci said:


> I like your taste in pasties.
> 
> toggle


 
i've just spent the evening reading walkowitz.

answered a few of my questions on local issues and explained a lot of the nastier side effects of victorian morality. it's also readable. as in I can pick it up, read it cover to cover in an evening. enjoy doing that. and learn something.

i've also come up with a couple of ideas to write about. just have to make sure i dont' step on my freind's toes.


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## RaverDrew (Jan 16, 2013)

Frumious B. said:


> Don't worry. If you'd read more of his posts in other threads you'd know he's just a nitwit with an apparent mental age of 13. I ignore him, unless other people pick up on his drivel.


 
This is the most hilarious thing I've read all day, thank you


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## ViolentPanda (Jan 17, 2013)

RaverDrew said:


> This is the most hilarious thing I've read all day, thank you


 
Flattering too. Most people reckon your mental age is about 11!!!


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## Gramsci (Jan 17, 2013)

toggle said:


> i've just spent the evening reading walkowitz.
> 
> answered a few of my questions on local issues and explained a lot of the nastier side effects of victorian morality. it's also readable. as in I can pick it up, read it cover to cover in an evening. enjoy doing that. and learn something.
> 
> i've also come up with a couple of ideas to write about. just have to make sure i dont' step on my freind's toes.


 
I would be interested if you post up your views on her book and if it has relevance now. Also anything you might this is relevnt for this thread (which has broadened out at times to cover all sex work).


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## toggle (Jan 17, 2013)

loads.

but the ideas of punishing the women for male licence came through very strongly, they were blamed for spreading disease wheras the impact of infected men was not considered, when the contagious disease acts were repealed, the instances of VD decreaced, it also started to be revealed how many married women had been infected by the permissable philandering of thei husbands, who were sick, but recieved no treatment.

she also examined it as did the horrific treatment of women. the labelling of them, imprisionment for any sores noticed during compulsory examination of their genitalia, and the system set up seemingly so they could not escape. a woman could not get lodgings and a different job while she was still being visited by the police because she was registered as a prostitute, but they would not remove her from the register until she had for some time showed she was not.they were trapped. a lot of the work of 'rescue' orgs was about moving women between towns so they could aviod this trap/

she gave examples of how evicting women from brothels was incredibly counter productive. they were homeless, more vulnerable and a 'public nuisance'

she also discussed how prostitution with all the risks inherent, was a far easier life tham women had in the factories or workshops. while women could contract vd, rpostitutes rarely contracted tuberculosis, that was rife among women in manual labour. and how for a few, it was a financially sensible choice.

i'll think on my way home and add more


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## toggle (Jan 17, 2013)

i also got an example of a woman moving from cornwall to lymouth and i'm thinking about writing that up as part of the darker side of the cornish emigration trade. cause what is written is somewhat too celebratory in light of reading about destitute cornish women working in plymouth.


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## Gramsci (Jan 18, 2013)

toggle said:


> i also got an example of a woman moving from cornwall to lymouth and i'm thinking about writing that up as part of the darker side of the cornish emigration trade. cause what is written is somewhat too celebratory in light of reading about destitute cornish women working in plymouth.


 
Thanks. 2 very interesting posts. Good summary of Walkowitz.

You might find this of interest


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## Gramsci (Jan 18, 2013)

Also this

*[PDF]* ​*'Purifying' the public world: feminist vigilantes in late Victorian England*

maggiemcneill.files.wordpress.com/.../purifying-the-public-world-by...


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## cuppa tee (Feb 14, 2013)

I was by the former Max2 a little earlier and noticed it's undergone a makeover
It now goes by the name Bar du Poncha
and vinyl lettering in the window advertises it as a "concourse de karaoke"
with 18+ dancing.


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## TruXta (Feb 14, 2013)

cuppa tee said:


> I was by the former Max2 a little earlier and noticed it's undergone a makeover
> It now goes by the name Bar du Poncha
> and vinyl lettering in the window advertises it as a "concourse de karaoke"
> with 18+ dancing.


Not Bar de Concha? Would've been more apt.


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## cuppa tee (Feb 14, 2013)

TruXta said:


> Not Bar de Concha? Would've been more apt.


why ?


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## TruXta (Feb 14, 2013)

cuppa tee said:


> why ?


Concha means pussy in Spanish.


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## B-Town (Feb 23, 2013)

So I'm lost on this thread, is there a place of lapdancers in Brixton? Is there going to be another one? It would be good if there was something similar to The Griffin in Farringdon... A pound in a pot kind of place...


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