# Company takeovers, employee rights....



## xes (May 24, 2012)

So, our company has been bought out by the IS group, and people naturally, are getting a bit restless and unsure about how this is going to pan out. (mainly the girls upstairs) So, I wanted to get some info, anything I can basically, to show what a firm can and can't do to our contracts ect, as they come steaming in. What changes are to be expected, and what changes are not be kept an eye out for ect.

None of us are in a union (there's only 8 people work here, we've never needed one, it's been a very relaxed place) Are we going to need to join one?

They're going to get us to sign a new contract in Oct/Nov time, and I know we'll be loosing our friday afternoons. (we come in half an hour early, and only have half hour lunches, so we can leave at 12 on friday, which suits us all, but all of their other companies work till 5)

Any advice, gratefully reveived


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## Kanda (May 24, 2012)

Google 'TUPE'

http://www.acas.org.uk/index.aspx?articleid=1655


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## xes (May 24, 2012)

Reading now, thank you


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## Puddy_Tat (May 24, 2012)

Kanda said:


> Google 'TUPE'


 
^ this.

CIPD (needs allegedly free registration) have a fact sheet (I may have an electronic copy of this somewhere - let me know if you want me to look)

Local Government Employers association has a page about it here - the basic law is the same whether it's public or private sector

This (opens as PDF) is the Government's guidance.

TUPE is not a fun experience - and an awful lot of shit is talked about it by managers who ought to know better. A few thoughts from personal knowledge (subject to the disclaimer that I'm not a lawyer / HR person or anything like that - I've been TUPEd once and came close another couple of times) - but I'd suggest seeking qualified advice if anything gets close to the crunch...

You can't refuse to be TUPE'd to the new employer - you can resign, but that's about it. You don't have the option to say "I'm not going, give me a redundancy payment"

If the old employer wants, they can offer to keep people on and provide other work, but they don't have to, and if this happens, it's the employee's right to choose to stay or to transfer. And I think the old employer has to offer continued employment to everyone affected, they can't use TUPE to get shot of people they want to get shot of. (It gets complicated it it's - say - a contract that's changing hands, and some staff work part of their time on that contract and part time on other stuff - I believe that working more than 50% of your time over the previous 6 months on the contract that's going is a commonly accepted yardstick)

They can expect a 'reasonable' change in working location - but exactly what 'reasonable' is depends on exactly what your contract says, and case law I've heard about suggests that the higher up the chain you are, the further it's reasonable to move - for example expecting a part time admin assistant to move to a site 40 miles away could be less reasonable than a senior executive. Such a situation might constitute redundancy if it's not reasonable to move to the new site.

Your length of service with the old employer counts as continuous for things like unfair dismissal rights and redundancy pay, and they can't treat you as a 'new employee' with a probationary period or anything like that.

Pensions are (broadly) not TUPE-able, so if your old employer had a good pension scheme and your new employer a crap one, tough. You should be able to 'freeze' entitlement in the old scheme the same as if you left voluntarily. If they suggest transferring your old pension into the new employer's scheme, I'd suggest seeking independent financial advice.

Things that are 'established custom and practice' may be held to be contractual even if it isn't on paper.

TUPE law does not have a specific time limit for changes - some employers hold that TUPE gives protection for X amount of time and no more. This is balls.

Having said that, employers can in some circumstances seek to change employees' contracts, irrespective of TUPE - this from CAB has more. The choice may well be 'sign or lose your job' - I'm unclear whether the latter legally counts as redundancy.

You may find that any promotions / pay rises in the future are subject to signing up to the new employers' terms and conditions. Unless such pay rises etc are contractual (in your old contract) I think you're stuffed.

It's possible the new employer may subtly (or overtly) discriminate against acquired employees - I'm not sure there's any legal protection here (there might be if the acquired employees are predominantly female / black or some such, but I'm out of my depth here.)

Broadly speaking, I'd say yes to joining a union, but be aware that many unions either have a qualifying period of membership before they will take up the cudgels on your behalf, or they won't take on an issue that had already arisen before you joined (after all, you wouldn't ring up to take out household insurance once you got home and found you'd been burgled, would you?) Joining a union now may be a good move in case things get shitty at a later date.

Hope all goes well.


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## bemused (May 24, 2012)

I've TUPE'd people, I really wouldn't see it all as doom and gloom it can open up some opportunities that otherwise wouldn't be there. Really depends what the company you are moving to is like.


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## Puddy_Tat (May 24, 2012)

bemused said:


> I've TUPE'd people, I really wouldn't see it all as doom and gloom it can open up some opportunities that otherwise wouldn't be there. Really depends what the company you are moving to is like.


 
indeed - if the new organisation is reasonably big, and has a fair and open promotion policy, then yes, there can be new opportunities.

but you may potentially not be seen as one of your new boss's "own people" which can be kinda uncomfortable.

there's only one way to find out...


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## equationgirl (May 25, 2012)

We had the options of a) putting in for voluntary redundancy, b) staying on our existing contracts or c) accepting the offers presented by the new company (which were uniformly dire). Most elected for one of a) or b).


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## StoneRoad (May 26, 2012)

Perhaps ACAS may have some advice?

I've been TUPE'd at least twice, and had a mixed experience !
The one time was actually quite good, as we has the Friday afternoon / POETS situation and the other people didn't, but we were able to keep that and several other 'perks' for a prolonged period.
The other time was quite horrible, and the small team I was in all ended up being made redundant after the TUPE period when the new owner's decided to close our office.

Good Luck!


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## 19sixtysix (May 26, 2012)

TUC has info at http://www.tuc.org.uk/tuc/rights_main.cfm

Find which union to join for your industry here http://www.worksmart.org.uk/unionfinder/


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## mrs quoad (May 28, 2012)

xes said:


> None of us are in a union (there's only 8 people work here, we've never needed one, it's been a very relaxed place) Are we going to need to join one?


Might be worth mentioning that insta-joining a union might not provide full protection.

I've been a member of Unison since the company who owned the contract for my drug service basically exploded in a fuck-awful fiery mess of godawful shite.

However, Unison were unable to provide things like free legal support, because I would've only gained access to the full benefits of Union membership after a year. Understandably, I guess. It stops people signing up for 'convenience / crisis' membership, then off-fucking once the crisis was over.

I did have a useful chat with the branch secretary on the phone, though, who basically told me that - yeah - I probably would've been rogered anyway unless I'd started taking advice / doing things properly several months earlier. And doing that would've blown my plan to keep my escape (to academia) secret. So that probably wouldn't've happened regardless.


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## Yelkcub (Jul 17, 2012)

Oh dear. My chaps are about to get shafted in a TUPE transfer. Incoming firm had made no contact with less than a month to go and have now issues a letter juat saying there will be redundancies. I know they have taken on cheaper, unprotected staff to do my chaps work, but no doubt they'll get away with it.


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## equationgirl (Jul 17, 2012)

Yelkcub said:


> Oh dear. My chaps are about to get shafted in a TUPE transfer. Incoming firm had made no contact with less than a month to go and have now issues a letter juat saying there will be redundancies. I know they have taken on cheaper, unprotected staff to do my chaps work, but no doubt they'll get away with it.


See legal advice from an employment specialist now. 

I'm sure there's something that says this can't be done in the way you describe it, but I'm very rusty on TUPE now.


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## Yelkcub (Jul 17, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> See legal advice from an employment specialist now.
> 
> I'm sure there's something that says this can't be done in the way you describe it, but I'm very rusty on TUPE now.


 
I'm afraid I'm mercenary who will be away to the highest bidder. I won't be asserting any TUPE rights for myself, so won't be here to protect them after the TUPE date  - all I can do is advise them to seek advice I guess


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## ddraig (Jul 17, 2012)

yeah you sort yerself out jack, well done


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## Puddy_Tat (Jul 17, 2012)

Yelkcub said:


> Oh dear. My chaps are about to get shafted in a TUPE transfer. Incoming firm had made no contact with less than a month to go and have now issues a letter juat saying there will be redundancies. I know they have taken on cheaper, unprotected staff to do my chaps work, but no doubt they'll get away with it.


 
hmm.

(subject to all the disclaimers in my previous post)

It does sound somewhat dodgy.

If a particular function of organisation A and organisation B merges as a result of something that generates TUPE, then it's not impossible that the new employer will have more people than it wants to carry out that function.

Staff who transfer employers will carry over their length of service as far as redundancy pay goes.

If the new employer then carries out a redundancy process with fair criteria covering both its existing staff and those transferred from the old employer, and does so in accordance with employment law as regards redundancy, I don't see that it's legally unfair.

If the new employer tries to make all / many of the transferred staff redundant in order to avoid their obligations under TUPE, especially if they have recruited new staff to do those jobs, then I'm inclined to think there's a fairly clear run to the employment tribunal.

Although employers can try to bend the rules by saying that the new jobs aren't the same as the jobs being made redundant (I've known it done in circumstances where the redundancy has been a bit of a sham in order to get an early retirement for someone who wants to get the hell out and therefore hasn't contested it)

Assuming there isn't a union involved, I'd suggest a call to ACAS.


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## Yelkcub (Jul 17, 2012)

ddraig said:


> yeah you sort yerself out jack, well done


 
What would you suggest I do, hang around and give advice I'm not qualified to, while turning down decent job offers? That woudl help who, how?


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