# A thank you to Brexiteers.



## MrSki (Feb 28, 2021)

A thank you to all the Brexiteers on the boards for not rubbing my nose in all the benefits that Brexit has achieved. It is very kind of you not to gloat in all that you won.


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## magneze (Feb 28, 2021)




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## andysays (Feb 28, 2021)

Is this another of those not in the least passive aggressive threads like the last not in the least passive aggressive thread you started a couple of weeks ago?


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## eatmorecheese (Feb 28, 2021)

Popcorny bin race then?


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## andysays (Feb 28, 2021)

eatmorecheese said:


> Popcorny bin race then?


Someone will probably want to complain about their supplies of either popcorn or bins have been adversely affected by Brexit.


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## eatmorecheese (Feb 28, 2021)

andysays said:


> Someone will probably want to complain about their supplies of either popcorn or bins have been adversely affected by Brexit.



..followed by anecdotes about the plentiful US popcorn and globally sourced bins coming just round the corner?


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## MrSki (Feb 28, 2021)

andysays said:


> Is this another of those not in the least passive aggressive threads like the last not in the least passive aggressive thread you started a couple of weeks ago?


I think you are confusing me with another poster.


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## gosub (Feb 28, 2021)

MrSki said:


> I think you are confusing me with another poster.


In that case......



You're welcome.


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## gosub (Feb 28, 2021)

Thank fuck that's over with.  Was beginning to think some people would never get over it.


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## BobDavis (Feb 28, 2021)

You need to get away from this loser/winner thing. All of us eligible to vote in the referendum whether we voted leave or remain are either all winners or all losers. Time will tell.


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## brogdale (Feb 28, 2021)

BobDavis said:


> You need to get away from this loser/winner thing. All of us eligible to vote in the referendum whether we voted leave or remain are either all winners or all losers. Time will tell.


I don't think the 'winners' or 'losers' from the Brexit process are limited to those eligible to vote in June 2016.


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## cupid_stunt (Feb 28, 2021)

Well, there's one benefit no one can deny, we were able to secure covid vaccines far quicker outside the fucked up bureaucracy of the EU. 

Oh, and how they throw their toys out of their pram over that, bless them.


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## BobDavis (Feb 28, 2021)

brogdale said:


> I don't think the 'winners' or 'losers' from the Brexit process are limited to those eligible to vote in June 2016.


I would agree. On this point though I was limiting it to just referendum voters. I often stop leave voters in their tracks by making that point when they come out with the inevitable “Yer lost. Get over it”.


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## Supine (Feb 28, 2021)

cupid_stunt said:


> Well, there's one benefit no one can deny, we were able to secure covid vaccines far quicker outside the fucked up bureaucracy of the EU.
> 
> Oh, and how they throw their toys out of their pram over that, bless them.



You taking piss or serious? Brexit had no influence on the UK's vaccine procurement. None.


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## not-bono-ever (Feb 28, 2021)

No more
Ban this sort of thing


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## Spymaster (Feb 28, 2021)

Supine said:


> You taking piss or serious? Brexit had no influence on the UK's vaccine procurement. None.


Absolute nonsense


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## Supine (Feb 28, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Absolute nonsense



It is


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 28, 2021)

Supine said:


> It is



Every EU country had the right to seek their own supply, every EU country chose for political purposes not to, they wanted to show support for the project. That’s great. My mum, Mr Ski’s mum, they are vaccinated and if exposed to Covid are now unlikely to die from it. If they lived in the EU chances are they would not be vaccinated and would be at a significant risk of death if they got it. You can deny that all you like, doesn’t make it so.


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## Flavour (Feb 28, 2021)

pointless shit thread. bin


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## Supine (Feb 28, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Every EU country had the right to seek their own supply, every EU country chose for political purposes not to, they wanted to show support for the project. That’s great. My mum, Mr Ski’s mum, they are vaccinated and if exposed to Covid are now unlikely to die from it. If they lived in the EU chances are they would not be vaccinated and would be at a significant risk of death if they got it. You can deny that all you like, doesn’t make it so.



I don't get what point you are trying to make. 

The UK could independently buy vaccines whether Brexit happened or not. It's great we did. 

Trying to see it as a Brexit bonus is just plain wrong.


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## eatmorecheese (Feb 28, 2021)

We already lived in a neoliberal clusterfuck with some of the biggest  measurable rates of inequality before Brexit and Covid. Too early to tell how the next few years will progress. I don't imagine it will be generally positive, but what would I know?


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 28, 2021)

Supine said:


> I don't get what point you are trying to make.
> 
> The UK could independently buy vaccines whether Brexit happened or not. It's great we did.
> 
> Trying to see it as a Brexit bonus is just plain wrong.



Either you are being stupid as fuck or disingenuous. We did our own thing cos we were out of the EU and therefore when then EU said to its members that they would take care of it we were not in the club so couldn’t go with that. The EU fucked it up, the result is lives lost. Worse is Merkel and Macron, in order to attempt to save face for the EU rubbished the Astra Zeneca vaccine and now Germans and French people are turning it down, costing even more lives. This is plain to see and non-partisan. For sure they will be many negative aspects to leaving the EU, all divorces are costly, but to deny the EU fucked vaccine procurement when the U.K. didn’t is just silly.


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## Artaxerxes (Feb 28, 2021)

Flavour said:


> pointless shit thread. bin



Bit like Brexit really.


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## kebabking (Feb 28, 2021)

Supine said:


> I don't get what point you are trying to make.
> 
> The UK could independently buy vaccines whether Brexit happened or not. It's great we did.
> 
> Trying to see it as a Brexit bonus is just plain wrong.



its quite telling that despite every country in the EU being _able _to not get involved with the centralised procurement programe, not one of them didn't.

the EU is a _political_ project, as well as being a legal entity/system/framework - to be in the club is to subscibe to the political project/imperatives.


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## Supine (Feb 28, 2021)

Disingenuous or stupid as fuck? 

We did our own thing because that is what we wanted to do. Brexit or not, we had the choice.  

We couldn't join in because we were not in the club? They invited us to join the procurement process and we said no so that is also bollocks. 

I really don't want to join in with this nationalistic crap that brexiteers keep banging on with. Yes they've not been doing well compared to us. I'd be first to agree with that. They also made a mistake deciding there was not enough data to justify licensing the AZ vaccine for >65 year olds and Germany are almost certainly about to reverse that decision. 

I've not argued that the EU have done anything well. This is (another) brexit thread and I'm making the simple point that brexit had fuck all to do with vaccine performance.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 28, 2021)

Supine said:


> Disingenuous or stupid as fuck?
> 
> We did our own thing because that is what we wanted to do. Brexit or not, we had the choice.
> 
> ...





Supine said:


> Brexit had no influence on the UK's vaccine procurement. None.


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## Humberto (Feb 28, 2021)

Thanks to David Cameron for his panoply of problems and permanent retreat from any kind of progress (savage austerity I mean) whilst labouring the country with debt for the privilege. Before fucking off sharpish before anyone had realised the extent of his arrogant bungling. Inbred arsefaced tosser. Wrong man for any occasion.


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## Artaxerxes (Feb 28, 2021)

Humberto said:


> Thanks to David Cameron for his panoply of problems and permanent retreat from any kind of progress (savage austerity I mean) whilst labouring the country with debt for the privilege. Before fucking off sharpish before anyone had realised the extent of his arrogant bungling. Inbred arsefaced tosser. Wrong man for any occasion.



That he’s had seven figure sums for speaking about leadership at various conferences since tells you all you need to know about the state of modern business culture


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## muscovyduck (Mar 1, 2021)

Wasn't there another thread where we all actually started talking about the benefits of brexit? Where did it go?


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## BobDavis (Mar 1, 2021)

I can understand why the op posted this & I am sympathetic. I will admit I was in denial after the ref. I thought no this just is not going to happen. This is just so wasteful & pointless. Then came the years of political turmoil & It looked possibly it might not happen. In the end though I thought it probably would because that is what people voted for.

All the arguments like possibly void referendum due to it being legally only advisory & so on could not get away from  that people had voted to leave in a binary vote. People I knew who voted leave. I felt their quiet anger while they thought their vote might be denied. Then the general election came & most people I knew said they thought Johnson was a wanker but they were voting Tory just to get things sorted. I knew it was lost then & I let it go. All the anger went & now I am going with it. Despite my love of going to our near European neighbours I am only ever going to go over there on camping trips.

I was born in this country. I will die here & English is the only language I speak more than a few words of so I need to stop pretending I am as European as I thought I was. The op needs to let brexit go & concentrate how they can do what they want to do with things as they are now. For me politically the most important thing is to right the wrongs that exist in this country.


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## Maggot (Mar 1, 2021)

andysays said:


> Is this another of those not in the least passive aggressive threads like the last not in the least passive aggressive thread you started a couple of weeks ago?


It was me that started that other thread. There is more than one anti Brexit poster on here. 

Also I think you are confusing passive aggression with sarcasm.


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## Knotted (Mar 1, 2021)

With everything that's gone on the last year, I'm amazed anybody can summon the energy to care one way or the other about Brexit.


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## David Clapson (Mar 1, 2021)

Yesterday's Observer piece about how well the UK is doing and how the Germans are jealous of us seems relevant. But I can't read it properly because the opening makes me too furious. I hate to say it, but Britain's doing OK. Even Germany envies us...


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## krtek a houby (Mar 1, 2021)

muscovyduck said:


> Wasn't there another thread where we all actually started talking about the benefits of brexit? Where did it go?



This thread is one of the benefits of Brexit. 'tis very meta.


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## BobDavis (Mar 1, 2021)

I seem to recall Holland & France did want to do their own vaccine procurement but were persuaded (lent on ?) by Merkel to join in the EU wide programme for the sake of EU unity. I would think that was because of brexit yes & Merkel is desperate for EU unity. I don’t think it was ever going to work very well because the EU countries are too diverse. I don’t think even the most ardent remainers can deny here that it is the EU that is the bad actor in this. 

A low point was the EU threatening to upset things in NI & it looked like them throwing toys out of their pram. Then the seeds of doubt about the partly UK developed Astra Zeneca being sown by leading EU politicians who should have known better. You can read into it what you like but it is not a good look for the EU. The overall look to me is that the EU put politics before putting vaccine into peoples arms.


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## kebabking (Mar 1, 2021)

One of the benefits of brexit is that through their condescending, insulting, entitled, tin-eared outrage - which went down like cold sick amongst the electorate, both leave and remain - a certain section of the political class have consigned themselves to the political wilderness.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with, on balance and after considering all the issues, believing that the UK should be a member of the EU - there is however, as should by now be astonishingly apparent to these _political geniuses, _a great deal wrong with slagging off everyone who doesn't agree with your analysis as a thick racist and attempting to overturn the result of a referendum because you think that other people just aren't bright enough to understand the issues in the way you do...

How are those #FBPE tags working out for you...?


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## bimble (Mar 1, 2021)

Happy March everyone glad to see things have moved on.
Just remember that Switzerland has managed to totally fuck up their vaccine procurement & rollout all on their own, without the EU helping them do it at all.
They’ve fucked it so spectacularly that it’s being done differently in each canton, and my 74 yr old folks are told to wait for a letter probably sometime in May.


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## Pickman's model (Mar 1, 2021)

BobDavis said:


> I seem to recall Holland & France did want to do their own vaccine procurement but were persuaded (lent on ?) by Merkel to join in the EU wide programme for the sake of EU unity. I would think that was because of brexit yes & Merkel is desperate for EU unity. I don’t think it was ever going to work very well because the EU countries are too diverse. I don’t think even the most ardent remainers can deny here that it is the EU that is the bad actor in this.
> 
> A low point was the EU threatening to upset things in NI & it looked like them throwing toys out of their pram. Then the seeds of doubt about the partly UK developed Astra Zeneca being sown by leading EU politicians who should have known better. You can read into it what you like but it is not a good look for the EU. The overall look to me is that the EU put politics before putting vaccine into peoples arms.


Putting vaccine into people's arms is political.


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## Pickman's model (Mar 1, 2021)

bimble said:


> Happy March everyone glad to see things have moved on.
> Just remember that Switzerland has managed to totally fuck up their vaccine procurement & rollout all on their own, without the EU helping them do it at all.
> They’ve fucked it so spectacularly that it’s being done differently in each canton, and my 74 yr old folks are told to wait for a letter probably sometime in May.


Time passing is not the same as things moving on


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## BobDavis (Mar 1, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Putting vaccine into people's arms is political.


I think the EU have made it political yes but it should not be. One could even say that it has been made political in this country by suggesting it is not our government that should take the credit but our NHS & so on but that does not take away the overall success of the UK vaccination programme which in the end is all that matters.

I suppose one could argue that if the separate EU countries had gone it alone like UK then the smaller poorer EU countries might have missed out but fact is UK vaccination programme has been successful & the EU’s has not. One should avoid any sort of nationalist jingoism though because for the vaccination programme to be a total success it needs to be successful worldwide.


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## Pickman's model (Mar 1, 2021)

BobDavis said:


> I think the EU have made it political yes but it should not be. One could even say that it has been made political in this country by suggesting it is not our government that should take the credit but our NHS & so on but that does not take away the overall success of the UK vaccination programme which in the end is all that matters.
> 
> I suppose one could argue that if the separate EU countries had gone it alone like UK then the smaller poorer EU countries might have missed out but fact is UK vaccination programme has been successful & the EU’s has not. One should avoid any sort of nationalist jingoism though because for the vaccination programme to be a total success it needs to be worldwide.


It is political. Not it has been made political. It is political. The success of the UK vaccination programme is not all that matters.


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## BobDavis (Mar 1, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> It is political. Not it has been made political. It is political.


Explain how me going to my local vaccination centre to get vaccinated a couple of weeks ago was a political act. It did not seem like one to me.


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## kebabking (Mar 1, 2021)

BobDavis said:


> I think the EU have made it political yes but it should not be. One could even say that it has been made political in this country by suggesting it is not our government that should take the credit but our NHS & so on but that does not take away the overall success of the UK vaccination programme which in the end is all that matters.
> 
> I suppose one could argue that if the separate EU countries had gone it alone like UK then the smaller poorer EU countries might have missed out but fact is UK vaccination programme has been successful & the EU’s has not. One should avoid any sort of nationalist jingoism though because for the vaccination programme to be a total success it needs to be successful worldwide.



When looking at the EU vaccine procurement programme I think it's probably worth separating the the idea of 27 states getting together to buy a vaccine (potentially, imv, a very good idea), and getting the EU structures to do it....


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## Pickman's model (Mar 1, 2021)

BobDavis said:


> Explain how me going to my local vaccination centre to get vaccinated a couple of weeks ago was a political act. It did not seem like one to me.


No it wouldn't. You talked of putting vaccine in people's arms. Putting vaccine in people's arms. Do you understand what you say or do the words bubble unthinking from your mouth?

Can we carry on on the basis of phrases you introduce or do you just want to change the parameters every time you post?


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## cupid_stunt (Mar 1, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Every EU country had the right to seek their own supply, every EU country chose for political purposes not to, they wanted to show support for the project. That’s great. My mum, Mr Ski’s mum, they are vaccinated and if exposed to Covid are now unlikely to die from it. If they lived in the EU chances are they would not be vaccinated and would be at a significant risk of death if they got it. You can deny that all you like, doesn’t make it so.



EU put pressure on countries not to seek their own supplies, this came out when the EU fell out with Astrazeneca over supply levels, insisting they should have some of the UK's supply, before backing down.

A few weeks after the UK invested, AZ reached an agreement with a group known as the 'Inclusive Vaccine Alliance' (Germany, Holland, France and Italy) based on the UK agreement, but negotiations were handed over to the EU, because they/Germany insisted that the alliance could not formalise the deal, resulting in over 2 months of further talks, meaning the EU signed a deal 3 months after the UK.

Ironically, the alliance had been born out of a feeling that the Commission could not be trusted to move quickly enough, AZ announced they had reached an agreement with the alliance on the 13th June, the EU announced they had finally got around to signing the agreement on the 27th Aug.

This gave AZ an extra three months to sort out manufacturing and supply problems associated with the UK contract, so the EU have had to wait until they have done the same at their Belgium site, the main base for supplying the EU, and where the problem was. 

Let's not forget, whilst they were throwing their toys out of their pram, they imposed Covid vaccine controls on the Irish border, without even discussing it first with the Irish & the UK governments, before back paddling at high speed when it blow up in their faces. Typical bullying tactics.



Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Worse is Merkel and Macron, in order to attempt to save face for the EU rubbished the Astra Zeneca vaccine and now Germans and French people are turning it down, costing even more lives.



Indeed, and which has also influenced some other EU sates to be wary of it, it's reported that millions, some 80%, of AZ doses are sitting unused in the bloc.



Bahnhof Strasse said:


> This is plain to see and non-partisan. For sure they will be many negative aspects to leaving the EU, all divorces are costly, but to deny the EU fucked vaccine procurement when the U.K. didn’t is just silly.



Spot on.


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## BobDavis (Mar 1, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> No it wouldn't. You talked of putting vaccine in people's arms. Putting vaccine in people's arms. Do you understand what you say or do the words bubble unthinking from your mouth?


In the arm & not in the bum cheek is where the Covid vaccine goes. Explain how putting it in those actual terms is political.  You still have not explained as I asked you to.

It will now be a while before I answer your response Pickers. I am going for a shit & a shower. Don’t think for one moment I have bailed out of our exchange.


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## Pickman's model (Mar 1, 2021)

BobDavis said:


> In the arm & not in the bum cheek is where the Covid vaccine goes. Explain how putting it in those actual terms is political.  You still have not explained as I asked you to.
> 
> It will now be a while before I answer your response Pickers. I am going for a shit & a shower. Don’t think for one moment I have bailed out of our exchange.


we were talking using your phrase about putting vaccine into people's arms. That is, we were talking about the governmental programme for vaccination. Which is political as all government actions are political. If you no longer want to to talk about that but enquire how your participation in a political scheme is political then we can do. But I'm not sure what the point is.


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## dessiato (Mar 1, 2021)

BobDavis said:


> I can understand why the op posted this & I am sympathetic. I will admit I was in denial after the ref. I thought no this just is not going to happen. This is just so wasteful & pointless. Then came the years of political turmoil & It looked possibly it might not happen. In the end though I thought it probably would because that is what people voted for.
> 
> All the arguments like possibly void referendum due to it being legally only advisory & so on could not get away from  that people had voted to leave in a binary vote. People I knew who voted leave. I felt their quiet anger while they thought their vote might be denied. Then the general election came & most people I knew said they thought Johnson was a wanker but they were voting Tory just to get things sorted. I knew it was lost then & I let it go. All the anger went & now I am going with it. Despite my love of going to our near European neighbours I am only ever going to go over there on camping trips.
> 
> I was born in this country. I will die here & English is the only language I speak more than a few words of so I need to stop pretending I am as European as I thought I was. The op needs to let brexit go & concentrate how they can do what they want to do with things as they are now. For me politically the most important thing is to right the wrongs that exist in this country.


Brexit has fucked me over big time. I have lived and traveled extensively in the EU. My work depends to a large extent on having the freedom to move and live in the EU. All this has gone. My current and future life, the life of my wife, is now pretty much fucked.

I am looking at, and studying for, becoming a Spanish citizenship. Just so I can live how I have for the vast majority of my life.

I am now and always will be European.

It is very hard to not be very angry with the Brexit voters.


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## andysays (Mar 1, 2021)

Maggot said:


> It was me that started that other thread. There is more than one anti Brexit poster on here.


In that case, I offer my apologies to MrSki, this is the only not in the least passive aggressive thread about Brexit you've started.

As a thick and probably racist Leave supporter, all these Remainers look the same to me.


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## Idris2002 (Mar 1, 2021)

If 2016 led to a hard brexit, it was partly because remainers insisted on the fantasy of overturning the vote, instead of fighting for the only real option they had, which was to ensure that leave took the form of "divorce with bed rights" with the option of possibly rejoining ten or twenty years down the line.


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## BobDavis (Mar 1, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> we were talking using your phrase about putting vaccine into people's arms. That is, we were talking about the governmental programme for vaccination. Which is political as all government actions are political. If you no longer want to to talk about that but enquire how your participation in a political scheme is political then we can do. But I'm not sure what the point is.


You can make the logical point that any action by any government national or supranational as in EU is political but do not try to pretend that getting vaccinated is political in itself for the individual concerned. I certainly did not see it that way. All that matters is for governments to organise getting their populations vaccinated. In their arms or whatever part of the body it is decided to inject it into.

Having fairly bad Covid was the most painful horrible physiologically damaging 2 weeks of my life. It has taken me weeks to fully recover & I did thankfully recover when plenty suffer long term effects & plenty do not survive. All that matters here is to get people vaccinated asap. There was no politics at the vaccination centre I went to. Just people organised & coordinated getting the job done & doing it brilliantly well pushing people through at a rate of knots.

You can call our government‘s vaccination programme a political success & the EU’s a political failure or you can call it just success & failure but all that matters is getting the vaccines into peoples arms soonest because that is where the needle goes. In the arm.


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## Aladdin (Mar 1, 2021)

cupid_stunt said:


> Well, there's one benefit no one can deny, we were able to secure covid vaccines far quicker outside the fucked up bureaucracy of the EU.
> 
> Oh, and how they throw their toys out of their pram over that, bless them.




Ye might pass a few over to Ireland then. 

Oh I forgot... ye dont share life saving resources with the Irish....... like food and that... 
Or potatoes....


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## Smokeandsteam (Mar 1, 2021)

Are we really going the road of the P&P section become clogged by spam? This thread adds fuck all, everyone knows it adds fuck all and that every word on it is already covered by other threads.

Still, if the mods are happy to see it become a message board extension of FBPE Twitter then so be it....


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## Crispy (Mar 1, 2021)

Nobody voted Brexit because they thought it would be choirs of angels after two months. It's large scale political change. You can't score points when it's only just started.


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## BobDavis (Mar 1, 2021)

Idris2002 said:


> If 2016 led to a hard brexit, it was partly because remainers insisted on the fantasy of overturning the vote, instead of fighting for the only real option they had, which was to ensure that leave took the form of "divorce with bed rights" with the option of possibly rejoining ten or twenty years down the line.


With hindsight I absolutely agree. Theresa May was at first offered the deal that Johnson as prime minister accepted & rejected it as it put a border down the Irish Sea & Johnson at the time agreed. The deal voted for & rejected would have effectively kept us in the single market/customs union forever. Some Labour MPs ie Stephen Kinnock argued unsuccessfully that Labour should support Theresa May‘s deal as it made the inevitable brexit as soft as possible. It would have been a difficult call for many Labour MPs to vote with the Tories though.


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## cupid_stunt (Mar 1, 2021)

Sugar Kane said:


> Ye might pass a few over to Ireland then.
> 
> Oh I forgot... ye dont share life saving resources with the Irish....... like food and that...
> Or potatoes....



That's a bit below the belt. 

At some point we will have a supply that outstrips the speed at which they can be delivered into arms, at which point it has been suggested that Ireland receives any excess first.

In the meantime Ireland could ask the likes of Germany & France for some of the millions of unused doses they are sitting on.


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## brogdale (Mar 1, 2021)

Crispy said:


> Nobody voted Brexit because they thought it would be choirs of angels after two months. It's large scale political change. You can't score points when it's only just started.


There's obvious truth in what you say, but when those who presume to govern us have made so many definitive statements about the situation immediately following the act of withdrawal (eg. there will be no disruption to our trade flows etc.) you can hardly expect those who disagree with the re-arrangement to remain silent.


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## Smokeandsteam (Mar 1, 2021)




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## Aladdin (Mar 1, 2021)

cupid_stunt said:


> That's a bit below the belt.
> 
> At some point we will have a supply that outstrips the speed at which they can be delivered into arms, at which point it has been suggested that Ireland receives any excess first.
> 
> In the meantime Ireland could ask the likes of Germany & France for some of the millions of unused doses they are sitting on.




Below the belt? 
No I dont think it was actually.  It also was nor personal cupid_stunt


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## Smokeandsteam (Mar 1, 2021)




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## AmateurAgitator (Mar 1, 2021)

Now we've got the EU off our backs it's time to deal with our own British capitalists and get them off our backs. Time to build up something that can overthrow the British ruling class and share power and all resources, property and land equally among us, that will benefit us more than being in or out of the EU. We must seize what the rich have for our own collective benefit. It may seem impossible but no one ever got anywhere by giving up in the first place.

Capitalism has less and less to offer us and is more and more of a problem. It is destroying the environment. It has to go and the sooner the better.

That's how I see things anyway.


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## Pickman's model (Mar 1, 2021)

BobDavis said:


> You can make the logical point that any action by any government national or supranational as in EU is political but do not try to pretend that getting vaccinated is political in itself for the individual concerned. I certainly did not see it that way. All that matters is for governments to organise getting their populations vaccinated. In their arms or whatever part of the body it is decided to inject it into.
> 
> Having fairly bad Covid was the most painful horrible physiologically damaging 2 weeks of my life. It has taken me weeks to fully recover & I did thankfully recover when plenty suffer long term effects & plenty do not survive. All that matters here is to get people vaccinated asap. There was no politics at the vaccination centre I went to. Just people organised & coordinated getting the job done & doing it brilliantly well pushing people through at a rate of knots.
> 
> You can call our government‘s vaccination programme a political success & the EU’s a political failure or you can call it just success & failure but all that matters is getting the vaccines into peoples arms soonest because that is where the needle goes. In the arm.


There were plenty of politics involved in getting you the vaccine. But you simply won't see them. Of course it's political for the individual concerned - none of this process happens outside the polis, the state, from the procurement process to the decision who gets it first to the organisation of the vaccination in health centres and on and on. None of it is apolitical. Your initial stance was the entire thing can exist outside politics - it can't, as a glance at the way the vaccines were cleared here shows. As the government's triumphal vaccine nationalism illustrates. With that claim knocked down you changed the parameters to oh but my participation not a political act, certainly didn't feel like it. but it is, for reasons including accceptance or rejection of the vaccine has been given political meaning by the government and by anti-vaxxers. I wish you could keep your story straight about what all that matters is, because it changes from post to post


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## mauvais (Mar 1, 2021)

Count Cuckula said:


> Now we've got the EU off our backs it's time to deal with our own British capitalists and get them off our backs. Time to build up something that can overthrow the British ruling class and share power and all resources, property and land equally among us, that will benefit us more than being in or out of the EU. We must seize what the rich have for our own collective benefit. It may seem impossible but no one ever got anywhere by giving up in the first place.
> 
> Capitalism has less and less to offer us and is more and more of a problem. It is destroying the environment. It has to go and the sooner the better.
> 
> That's how I see things anyway.


As I've been saying for several years, the British capitalists were the most dominant in our affairs and now we have further empowered them. We may have 'got the EU off our backs' (except we haven't because global capital) but it offers no meaningful change whatsoever, eclipsed as it is by our own masters. A theoretical future opportunity is worth fuck all if you can't exploit it.

Meanwhile there is a hopelessly weak public with less appetite than ever for what you describe; there is major support for where we find ourselves, apparently on a road to fascism to boot, and we've never been further from collectivism. Even national disaster doesn't change anything.

The good news is it's too late anyway and soon we'll all be dead. Happy Monday!


----------



## krtek a houby (Mar 1, 2021)

kebabking said:


> There's absolutely nothing wrong with, on balance and after considering all the issues, believing that the UK should be a member of the EU - there is however, as should by now be astonishingly apparent to these _political geniuses, _a great deal wrong with slagging off everyone who doesn't agree with your analysis as a thick racist and attempting to overturn the result of a referendum because you think that other people just aren't bright enough to understand the issues in the way you do...
> 
> How are those #FBPE tags working out for you...?



After nearly 5 years, it's a contentious topic that often feels like it will run on forever. As have admitted in the last few years, there was certainly shock and disbelief on my part and said things that I regret. It was dismissive, patronising and emotional. Got it wrong. Very wrong.

Have come to accept the result and was bouyed up when it sunk in that going it alone for the UK, would also mean going alone for Scotland and a 32 county Republic.

As for the "thick/racist" commentary, those particular words only seem to crop up, these days, as examples from those urbanites who embraced the result from the get go. And of course, it's completely understandable that they were pissed off with such comments. 

As far as can see, nobody here thinks that brexiteers are thick and/or racist.

Anyways. No beef intended, genuinely hope it works out for everyone. Except the politicians who capitalized on the whole messy issue.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Mar 1, 2021)

mauvais said:


> As I've been saying for several years, the British capitalists were the most dominant in our affairs and now we have further empowered them. We may have 'got the EU off our backs' (except we haven't because global capital) but it offers no meaningful change whatsoever, eclipsed as it is by our own masters. A theoretical future opportunity is worth fuck all if you can't exploit it.
> 
> Meanwhile there is a hopelessly weak public with less appetite than ever for what you describe; there is major support for where we find ourselves, apparently on a road to fascism to boot, and we've never been further from collectivism. Even national disaster doesn't change anything.
> 
> The good news is it's too late anyway and soon we'll all be dead. Happy Monday!


Well nothing is ever going to be achieved with that attitude. I am well aware of the challenges that face us but it's better to try than to not bother.


----------



## NoXion (Mar 1, 2021)

Count Cuckula said:


> Well nothing is ever going to be achieved with that attitude. I am well aware of the challenges that face us but it's better to try than to not bother.



The worst thing is that it becomes a kind of self-fulfilling prophecy. If you never even _bother_ trying to make a positive difference because you think there are too many fick racists about, then of course you're not going to see anything positive happen, because you've already blinded yourself with pessimism.


----------



## mauvais (Mar 1, 2021)

Count Cuckula said:


> Well nothing is ever going to be achieved with that attitude. I am well aware of the challenges that face us but it's better to try than to not bother.


Oh no, sorry! And we were so close to bringing about fully automated luxury communism too, before I brought the whole team's morale down with my negative tone. I hope my 360 performance review can be deferred until _after _the seas rise and consume us all.


----------



## NoXion (Mar 1, 2021)

mauvais said:


> Oh no, sorry! And we were so close to bringing about fully automated luxury communism too, before I brought the whole team's morale down with my negative tone. I hope my 360 performance review can be deferred until _after _the seas rise and consume us all.



If we're all doomed, why do you even bother?


----------



## mauvais (Mar 1, 2021)

NoXion said:


> If we're all doomed, why do you even bother?


Bother doing what?


----------



## Aladdin (Mar 1, 2021)

cupid_stunt said:


> That's a bit below the belt.
> 
> At some point we will have a supply that outstrips the speed at which they can be delivered into arms, at which point it has been suggested that Ireland receives any excess first.
> 
> In the meantime Ireland could ask the likes of Germany & France for some of the millions of unused doses they are sitting on.




Sorry. 
Cabin fever setting in here. Indoors 12 months today. Virus figures here are second highest in the country. And the oldies in the house are cracking up. 
Plus no vaccines for his week here. And the surgery the parents were due to attend for their vaccine has had to shut due to outbreak of covid.
Not good.


----------



## NoXion (Mar 1, 2021)

mauvais said:


> Bother doing what?



This. Political shit in general. Do you think a better world is possible or not? Because if not then there are much more entertaining ways of spending one's limited time on this Earth.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 1, 2021)

Sugar Kane said:


> Sorry.
> Cabin fever setting in here. Indoors 12 months today. Virus figures here are second highest in the country. And the oldies in the house are cracking up.
> Plus no vaccines for his week here. And the surgery the parents were due to attend for their vaccine has had to shut due to outbreak of covid.
> Not good.


Happy anniversary


----------



## Aladdin (Mar 1, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Happy anniversary




Thanks. 

I'm baking a cake.


----------



## editor (Mar 1, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Every EU country had the right to seek their own supply, every EU country chose for political purposes not to, they wanted to show support for the project. That’s great. My mum, Mr Ski’s mum, they are vaccinated and if exposed to Covid are now unlikely to die from it. If they lived in the EU chances are they would not be vaccinated and would be at a significant risk of death if they got it. You can deny that all you like, doesn’t make it so.


No matter how many times you repeat this lie it won't make it the truth.









						Vaccine approval isn’t quicker because of Brexit - Full Fact
					

The MHRA could have given the Pfizer vaccine the same emergency approval when the UK was in the EU.




					fullfact.org
				












						UK vaccine approval: Did Brexit speed up the process?
					

There have been claims that Brexit allowed the UK to approve a vaccine quicker than the EU, but is that correct?



					www.bbc.co.uk
				












						Brexit Britain's victory over the EU on Covid vaccination is not what it seems | Jean Quatremer
					

The bloc’s joint vaccines strategy – far from being a fiasco – is delivering a better outcome than the UK’s, says Jean Quatremer, Brussels correspondent of Libération




					www.theguardian.com
				








__





						Subscribe to read | Financial Times
					

News, analysis and comment from the Financial Times, the worldʼs leading global business publication




					www.ft.com


----------



## mauvais (Mar 1, 2021)

NoXion said:


> This. Political shit in general. Do you think a better world is possible or not? Because if not then there are much more entertaining ways of spending one's limited time on this Earth.


I think a significantly better world is probably not possible now, no - at least not in my lifetime and not without massive, uncontrolled world-changing events. As for why, passes the time doesn't it. Right now I could be talking to you about the futility of existence or I could be reviewing someone's pull request.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 1, 2021)

NoXion said:


> If we're all doomed, why do you even bother?


Passes the time


----------



## brogdale (Mar 1, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Passes the time


_It's being so cheerful that keeps me going.   _


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 1, 2021)

editor said:


> No matter how many times you repeat this lie it won't make it the truth.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Where is the lie? 
Did the UK join the EU's vaccine procurement group? No. 
Did every single EU country join? Yes.
As a result of relying on the EU to sort out the procurement, was there a delay in the vaccine rollout for those countries? Yes.
Why did the UK not join the EU's vaccine procurement group? Because the UK had left the EU.

These are simple facts, you can deny it all you like, just makes you look foolish and turns folk off from listening to your legitimate concerns about the bad aspects of leaving the EU.


----------



## muscovyduck (Mar 1, 2021)

I remember agreeing with the theory of the #lexit campaign (as it was known at the time), voting remain anyway because I was scared, and pretty much immediately regretting it seeing how vicious other remain voters got. What I have noticed over the years in between is that remain voters have been a lot more hostile to me for having dual citizenship that leave voters have been. As in to the extent that I once left a work do crying because I turned up with euros, accidentally got them out and was completely ostracised. It made fuck all sense but I presume it came from a place of extremely misguided jealousy. I can recognise it's a minority of remain voters who act like this. But then that same minority have the nerve to call me racist? 

My benefit to brexit is that if I ever become a strain on state resources it's a lot less likely a social worker's gonna try and send me home to a country I'm not from, as has been attempted before. Legally nothing's changed (I assume) but the way these people see the world has.


----------



## BobDavis (Mar 1, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> There were plenty of politics involved in getting you the vaccine. But you simply won't see them. Of course it's political for the individual concerned - none of this process happens outside the polis, the state, from the procurement process to the decision who gets it first to the organisation of the vaccination in health centres and on and on. None of it is apolitical. Your initial stance was the entire thing can exist outside politics - it can't, as a glance at the way the vaccines were cleared here shows. As the government's triumphal vaccine nationalism illustrates. With that claim knocked down you changed the parameters to oh but my participation not a political act, certainly didn't feel like it. but it is, for reasons including accceptance or rejection of the vaccine has been given political meaning by the government and by anti-vaxxers. I wish you could keep your story straight about what all that matters is, because it changes from post to post


I was posting how I viewed It. You & all other posters are free to disagree. My “story“ does not change just because you beg to differ. I fail to see how you pick up on ”getting it into people’s” arms as  different  from “taking the vaccine” or “being vaccinated”. You are free to be an anti Vaxxer or whatever. I have no issue with anybody who is reluctant to get vaccinated for whatever reason. If they speak to me I will suggest they get vaccinated but it is their choice. I see vaccination as a force for good in the world.

Do you seriously think that most people queuing up to get vaccinated anywhere in the world will see their actions as political ? I think most would see it as life saving. Of course any government will make political capital out of policy that appears to be working well. The distasteful populist regime we have in power right now will make distasteful populist  political capital out of it obviously.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 1, 2021)

editor said:


> No matter how many times you repeat this lie it won't make it the truth.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The first two links are concerning approval, whereas the discussion has been about procurement, two very different things.

The next one is much the same, but introduces various 'strawmen', such as them 'refusing to exempt laboratories from civil liability', which is true, liability remains with the companies, but they agreed that EU states would indemnify the manufacturer for liabilities incurred under certain conditions, so they would pick up the bill if anything goes wrong anyway, much like the UK agreed, just in a slightly different way.

There's no getting around the fact that the 'Inclusive Vaccine Alliance' (Germany, Holland, France and Italy) had reached the agreement with AZ on the 13th June, for 300-400 million doses for all EU countries, then the EU took over and didn't get around to signing the deal until the 27th Aug., and there was no different in price, as AZ is providing it at cost to all countries during the pandemic.

Sure, we may have paid a bit more for the pfizer one, not sure as I can't find that information, but at the end of the day, anything extra paid will be more than compensated by savings in hospital admissions & deaths, by getting it into people far quicker.


----------



## editor (Mar 1, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Where is the lie?
> Did the UK join the EU's vaccine procurement group? No.
> Did every single EU country join? Yes.
> As a result of relying on the EU to sort out the procurement, was there a delay in the vaccine rollout for those countries? Yes.
> ...


Damn those stupid newspapers and writers all getting their facts wrong. 

And this is very much worth a read; 








						Brexit Britain's victory over the EU on Covid vaccination is not what it seems | Jean Quatremer
					

The bloc’s joint vaccines strategy – far from being a fiasco – is delivering a better outcome than the UK’s, says Jean Quatremer, Brussels correspondent of Libération




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 1, 2021)

BobDavis said:


> I was posting how I viewed It. You & all other posters are free to disagree. My “story“ does not change just because you beg to differ. I fail to see how you pick up on ”getting it into people’s” arms as  different  from “taking the vaccine” or “being vaccinated”. You are free to be an anti Vaxxer or whatever. I have no issue with anybody who is reluctant to get vaccinated for whatever reason. If they speak to me I will suggest they get vaccinated but it is their choice. I see vaccination as a force for good in the world.
> 
> Do you seriously think that most people queuing up to get vaccinated anywhere in the world will see their actions as political ? I think most would see it as life saving. Of course any government will make political capital out of policy that appears to be working well. The distasteful populist regime we have in power right now will make distasteful populist  political capital out of it obviously.


putting needles/vaccine into people's arms is giving the vaccine. i thought that that was quite obvious. so it is clearly different from receiving the vaccine or from being vaccinated.

does a political act need to be recognised as such by the actors to be political? i think not. i suggest most political acts aren't seen as political by at least some of the actors - but this does not render them any less political. the way this issue has been politicised by the government, the way it has been politicised by the 'loons, the way that the distribution of vaccines has been organised - all these are political issues, and by taking part and therefore involving yourself in the government plan it's hard to see participation as apolitical. political acts can be life saving, they don't have to result in deaths.


----------



## BobDavis (Mar 1, 2021)

Separate the vaccine from the politics & you just have the vaccine where it should be going into people’s arms. The rate at which that can be achieved is the how the success of any country’s vaccination programme can be measured.

Edited to add this post was actually a response to editor‘s post but equally it could be a response to yours Pickmans.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 1, 2021)

BobDavis said:


> Separate the vaccine from the politics & you just have the vaccine where it should be going into people’s arms. The rate at which that can be achieved is the how the success of any country’s vaccination programme can be measured.


and obvs the organisation of this is utterly apolitical, the prioritising is utterly apolitical, the decision to brand the various vaccines safe in an accelerated way was apolitical

ffs catch yourself on - 'separate the vaccine from the politics' - can't be done. and then your 'the rate at which that can be achieved is how trhe success can be measured'. really? like every country has equal access to vaccines and no neighbours who are unwilling to help.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 1, 2021)

editor said:


> Damn those stupid newspapers and writers all getting their facts wrong.
> 
> And this is very much worth a read;
> 
> ...


I agree with some of that. However, the UK's gamble on prioritising first jab does appear to be paying off. Agree that it's too early to tell for definite, but the first results are very encouraging, showing a high level of protection, even for the very old, from just one jab.

Covid-19 news: One dose of Pfizer vaccine greatly reduced transmission

First real world covid-19 vaccine studies show 'spectacular' results


----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 1, 2021)

editor said:


> Damn those stupid newspapers and writers all getting their facts wrong.
> 
> And this is very much worth a read;
> 
> ...



I have, and it's full of 'strawmen', one of which I covered in my last post, here's another example.



> But, and there’s a very big but, the UK’s “success” is a really an illusion: because to be fully effective, the vaccine requires two doses. And only 0.80% of the UK population has received both shots, less than that of France (0.92%), and a long way behind Denmark, which has 2.87% of its population fully vaccinated.



It's a nonsense, because both vaccines have been demonstrated to be highly effective after a single dose, massively reducing serious cases, hospital admissions and deaths.



> Rollout of the Pfizer BioNTech and Oxford AstraZeneca vaccines has led to a substantial fall in severe covid-19 cases requiring hospital admission in Scotland, suggest the results of the first study to report on the impact of the UK’s vaccination strategy.1
> 
> The results, available as a preprint, showed that four weeks after the first doses of the Pfizer BioNTech and Oxford AstraZeneca vaccines were administered the risk of hospitalisation from covid-19 fell by up to 85% (95% confidence interval 76 to 91) and 94% (95% CI 73 to 99), respectively.
> 
> BMJ LINK



In addition the AZ vaccine has been proved to be more effective with a gap of 12 weeks between doses, and there's no evidence to suggest the same will not apply with the  pfizer one, as efficacy doesn't suddenly drop off after a few weeks.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 1, 2021)

Snap!


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 1, 2021)

cupid_stunt said:


> In addition the AZ vaccine has been proved to be more effective with a gap of 12 weeks between doses, and there's no evidence to suggest the same will not apply with the  pfizer one, as efficacy doesn't suddenly drop off after a few weeks.


'there's no evidence for' is unsurprising being as no one yet has had 12 weeks between doses of pfizer. let's hope we don't find a load of evidence.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 1, 2021)

editor said:


> Damn those stupid newspapers and writers all getting their facts wrong.



No, as Cupid rightly pointed out to you, which you have chosen to ignore as it doesn't suit your agenda, we are talking about vaccine procurement and you have waded in with regulatory approval and are seeking to conflate the two. Shallow as a worm's grave on this.


----------



## Raheem (Mar 1, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Why did the UK not join the EU's vaccine procurement group? Because the UK had left the EU.
> 
> These are simple facts...


Looks like an opinion to me.

I think it is correct to say the UK has not participated in any EU voluntary joint working initiative for over a decade. So it might reasonably be suggested that the reason the UK didn't join the JPA is that it had a Conservative government at the time.


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 1, 2021)

It's ironic that many of the EU can do no wrong/UK can do no right views that some Remainers put over on here would be laughed at in Europe.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 1, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> 'there's no evidence for' is unsurprising being as no one yet has had 12 weeks between doses of pfizer. let's hope we don't find a load of evidence.



Studies have shown that efficacy of the pfizer one remained high at 12 weeks, and tens of thousands of people have indeed had their second dose now.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 1, 2021)

cupid_stunt said:


> Studies have shown that efficacy of the pfizer one remained high at 12 weeks, and tens of thousands of people have indeed had their second dose now.


Prioritising first jab was a gamble. Experts disagreed with one another about its wisdom. However, sometimes being overly risk-averse is itself a risk, and being overly risk-averse does appear to have harmed the EU's vaccine approach thus far.

We shouldn't go overboard in praising this govt for its decision in this instance (about bloody time they got _something_ right), but there's no harm in acknowledging that they appear to have got it right.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 1, 2021)

cupid_stunt said:


> Studies have shown that efficacy of the pfizer one remained high at 12 weeks, and tens of thousands of people have indeed had their second dose now.


underlined bit utterly irrelevant, un-underlined bit of dubious value as you've already said there's no evidence.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 1, 2021)

Raheem said:


> Looks like an opinion to me.
> 
> I think it is correct to say the UK has not participated in any EU voluntary joint working initiative for over a decade. So it might reasonably be suggested that the reason the UK didn't join the JPA is that it had a Conservative government at the time.


----------



## kebabking (Mar 1, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Prioritising first jab was a gamble. Experts disagreed with one another about its wisdom. However, sometimes being overly risk-averse is itself a risk, and being overly risk-averse does appear to have harmed the EU's vaccine approach thus far.
> 
> We shouldn't go overboard in praising this govt for its decision in this instance (about bloody time they got _something_ right), but there's no harm in acknowledging that they appear to have got it right.



Absolutely. It would be interesting to see some figures for what the EU saved by spending several months haggling over the price of the vaccines compared to how much the several extra months of lockdown/pandemic will cost them.

I wouldn't fall of my chair if the UK's 'shut up and take my money' approach to vaccine procurement turns out to have been cheap at twice the price.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Mar 1, 2021)

eatmorecheese said:


> Popcorny bin race then?



Salty popcorn, without question.


----------



## dessiato (Mar 1, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> It's ironic that many of the EU can do no wrong/UK can do no right views that some Remainers put over on here would be laughed at in Europe.


I would guess that you, like me, having spent time living and working in the EU are often surprised by both the Brexit and Remainer arguments. 

My feeling is that there's both good and bad in the EU, but there's more good than bad. Staying in was better than leaving.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 1, 2021)

dessiato said:


> I would guess that you, like me, having spent time living and working in the EU are often surprised by both the Brexit and Remainer arguments.
> 
> My feeling is that there's both good and bad in the EU, but there's more good than bad. Staying in was better than leaving.


imagine the sort of ephemeral things we could have been discussing instead since '16


----------



## krtek a houby (Mar 1, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> imagine the sort of ephemeral things we could have been discussing instead since '16



1916 says hold my beer


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Mar 1, 2021)

David Clapson said:


> Yesterday's Observer piece about how well the UK is doing and how the Germans are jealous of us seems relevant. But I can't read it properly because the opening makes me too furious. I hate to say it, but Britain's doing OK. Even Germany envies us...



I wonder what the German compound word for the opposite of schadenfreude is. Siegweinen, maybe? Answers on a postcard.


----------



## kebabking (Mar 1, 2021)

dessiato said:


> I would guess that you, like me, having spent time living and working in the EU are often surprised by both the Brexit and Remainer arguments.
> 
> My feeling is that there's both good and bad in the EU, but there's more good than bad. Staying in was better than leaving.



For me, the most bizarre thing about the argument from the remain side (and I voted remain) is that it focused (and still focuses) on stuff like travel and paperwork, while completely ignoring the whole 'over-state' with a parliament, judiciary, executive, foreign policy, economic policy, currency, military command apparatus.

Think about it another way - someone suggests that the UK should join the US, and bases their argument _solely _on the advantages of being able to live in Montana and shop in Wal-Mart, and resolutely ignores everything else: the system of government, the economy, political culture, the divisions in its society.

You'd assume that person was a moron, wouldn't you?


----------



## krtek a houby (Mar 1, 2021)

Don't think using the word "moron" is constructive, whether or not folks are favourable to Brexit.


----------



## Raheem (Mar 1, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> View attachment 256788


That's side-splitting, but it's not what I said. I said it's an opinion, not an objective fact.


----------



## Maggot (Mar 1, 2021)

Idris2002 said:


> If 2016 led to a hard brexit, it was partly because remainers insisted on the fantasy of overturning the vote, instead of fighting for the only real option they had, which was to ensure that leave took the form of "divorce with bed rights" with the option of possibly rejoining ten or twenty years down the line.


People who voted for Brexit, blaming people who didn't vote for Brexit for the current shitstorm? Priceless


----------



## dessiato (Mar 1, 2021)

kebabking said:


> For me, the most bizarre thing about the argument from the remain side (and I voted remain) is that it focused (and still focuses) on stuff like travel and paperwork, while completely ignoring the whole 'over-state' with a parliament, judiciary, executive, foreign policy, economic policy, currency, military command apparatus.
> 
> Think about it another way - someone suggests that the UK should join the US, and bases their argument _solely _on the advantages of being able to live in Montana and shop in Wal-Mart, and resolutely ignores everything else: the system of government, the economy, political culture, the divisions in its society.
> 
> You'd assume that person was a moron, wouldn't you?


I do take your point, but my quoted response was in response to another poster who was, in turn, responding to an earlier post.


----------



## dessiato (Mar 1, 2021)

Maggot said:


> People who voted for Brexit, blaming people who didn't vote for Brexit for the current shitstorm? Priceless


Unfortunately it is happening on, eg, Facebook. I’ve read posts saying that if the Remai voters had just got over it, then everything would have gone smoothly and much better than they did.


----------



## NoXion (Mar 1, 2021)

kebabking said:


> For me, the most bizarre thing about the argument from the remain side (and I voted remain) is that it focused (and still focuses) on stuff like travel and paperwork, while completely ignoring the whole 'over-state' with a parliament, judiciary, executive, foreign policy, economic policy, currency, military command apparatus.
> 
> Think about it another way - someone suggests that the UK should join the US, and bases their argument _solely _on the advantages of being able to live in Montana and shop in Wal-Mart, and resolutely ignores everything else: the system of government, the economy, political culture, the divisions in its society.
> 
> You'd assume that person was a moron, wouldn't you?



I think there's been a rather successful propaganda effort to depict the EU supra-state as anything but.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Mar 1, 2021)

kebabking said:


> For me, the most bizarre thing about the argument from the remain side (and I voted remain) is that it focused (and still focuses) on stuff like travel and paperwork, while completely ignoring the whole 'over-state' with a parliament, judiciary, executive, foreign policy, economic policy, currency, military command apparatus.



Most remainer arguments I’m seeing are:

1. based on a misunderstanding of what Europe is and what the EU is and the obvious difference (“I don’t want to leave Europe”, “we are Europeans” etc)
2. cobbled together 1990’s style TUC analysis of the benefits of ‘a social Europe’ - which the troika of the ECB, IMF and EC has long condemned to the dustbin of political economy
3. bourgeois offence about things like the right to be a student in France - when for working class kids even going to university in their home city appears a distant dream
4.frankly bizarre arguments over immediate transitional government problems/issues. Bizarre because leaving a political construct that we’ve been embedded in for over half a century has actually gone remarkably smoothly. As you say, anger about paperwork.

My frustration with the entire debate is, essentially, that there is no remainer argument of any substance to engage with. Like you, kebabking, most sensible remainers have accepted the result and moved on. Even third way neo-liberals like Starmer and Sturgeon have either forgotten their previous apocalyptic warnings or dialled them right down.

There are no serious and well constructed arguments for what a reformed EU might look like being written. There is no substance, nothing to really engage with.

Instead what’s left, and there is no getting around it, is the tin foil hat wing...as these threads on U75 increasingly demonstrate.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 1, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> Don't think using the word "moron" is constructive, whether or not folks are favourable to Brexit.


not everyone wants to be constructive


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 1, 2021)




----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 1, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Most remainer arguments I’m seeing are:
> 
> 1. based on a misunderstanding of what Europe is and what the EU is and the obvious difference (“I don’t want to leave Europe”, “we are Europeans” etc)
> 2. cobbled together 1990’s style TUC analysis of the benefits of ‘a social Europe’ - which the troika of the ECB, IMF and EC has long condemned to the dustbin of political economy
> ...




Yeah, but DJ mixers...


----------



## Ax^ (Mar 1, 2021)

missed this thread last night


but seeming as i'm bimbling about the house with my first day off all year

I'd love to thank everyone who voted for Brexit every time i do an export entry to Europe
or having to spend the first month of the year figuring out how to get shit to north ireland and 2 months trying to figure out spanish customs

legit latin american is easier


----------



## brogdale (Mar 1, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> missed this thread last night
> 
> 
> but seeming as i'm bimbling about the house with my first day off all year
> ...


We have to conclude that capitalism needs nationalism more than it needs the accumulation from your firm.


----------



## Ax^ (Mar 1, 2021)

...


----------



## sleaterkinney (Mar 1, 2021)

.

No idea while I’m still doing this shit.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Mar 1, 2021)

.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 1, 2021)

sleaterkinney said:


> .
> 
> No idea while I’m still doing this shit.


i'm not sure why you are either


----------



## gosub (Mar 1, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Most remainer arguments I’m seeing are:
> 
> 1. based on a misunderstanding of what Europe is and what the EU is and the obvious difference (“I don’t want to leave Europe”, “we are Europeans” etc)
> 2. cobbled together 1990’s style TUC analysis of the benefits of ‘a social Europe’ - which the troika of the ECB, IMF and EC has long condemned to the dustbin of political economy
> ...



The bulk of the reform needed, has the EUro at its core and if the remainers had been paying attention to EUropean politics prior to the referendum the EUro-zone made damn clear to Cameron how much they valued the UK's input, Christ they didn't even value our opinion of 'electing' Juncker.

I'm not sure if we are being asked to pretend there was was n't a concerted efforts to over turn the referendum, but stay in and reform would have been a disaster. 

This isn't the Brexit I wanted,  nor expected, but its the one we've got.  I do know it took 20 years to get the referendum, excuse me if I don't put too much effort into having another one.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Mar 1, 2021)

the vilest of the vile are now in power for the forseeable. FFS


----------



## andysays (Mar 1, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> View attachment 256755


Even the rubbish going uncollected can be blamed on Brexit


----------



## cantsin (Mar 1, 2021)

andysays said:


> Someone will probably want to complain about their supplies of either popcorn or bins have been adversely affected by Brexit.



on a srs note, Lidl seems to be struggling to keep their in house, £2.99  for 4 ( x 4.8 % ) Galareux lager in stock, and I read something / somewhere that they were having EU related supply chain issues ( none of this helping my wobbly Lexitism)


----------



## TopCat (Mar 1, 2021)

muscovyduck said:


> I remember agreeing with the theory of the #lexit campaign (as it was known at the time), voting remain anyway because I was scared, and pretty much immediately regretting it seeing how vicious other remain voters got. What I have noticed over the years in between is that remain voters have been a lot more hostile to me for having dual citizenship that leave voters have been. As in to the extent that I once left a work do crying because I turned up with euros, accidentally got them out and was completely ostracised. It made fuck all sense but I presume it came from a place of extremely misguided jealousy. I can recognise it's a minority of remain voters who act like this. But then that same minority have the nerve to call me racist?
> 
> My benefit to brexit is that if I ever become a strain on state resources it's a lot less likely a social worker's gonna try and send me home to a country I'm not from, as has been attempted before. Legally nothing's changed (I assume) but the way these people see the world has.


I’m entitled to a Irish passport! The shit I get for this! I have the forms but dont see the point.


----------



## TopCat (Mar 1, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I agree with some of that. However, the UK's gamble on prioritising first jab does appear to be paying off. Agree that it's too early to tell for definite, but the first results are very encouraging, showing a high level of protection, even for the very old, from just one jab.
> 
> Covid-19 news: One dose of Pfizer vaccine greatly reduced transmission
> 
> First real world covid-19 vaccine studies show 'spectacular' results


Respect.


----------



## TopCat (Mar 1, 2021)

cantsin said:


> on a srs note, Lidl seems to be struggling to keep their in house, £2.99  for 4 ( x 4.8 % ) Galareux lager in stock, and I read something / somewhere that they were having EU related supply chain issues ( none of this helping my wobbly Lexitism)


I was in Lidl old Kent road. No shortages. That lovely beer was well stocked.


----------



## dessiato (Mar 1, 2021)

TopCat said:


> I’m entitled to a Irish passport! The shit I get for this! I have the forms but dont see the point.


If I had the chance I’d have already applied for it. That way my life could go on as it has. I’d love to have easy access to an EU passport.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 1, 2021)

And fuck this shit,


*French president Emmanuel Macron *: Claimed that the jab was 'quasi-ineffective' among over-65s and said UK had taken a risk with quick approval

*German vaccine committee*: Was the first EU regulator to limit the jab to younger people, on January 28

*Dutch Health Council*: Refused to approve the vaccine for over-65s because 'the immune system starts to function less well with increasing age'

*Austrian health ministry*: Said that 'no confident statements are possible' about efficacy in older people 

*French minister Clement Beaune *: Said there were 'doubts about the efficacy' in over-65s

*German newspaper Handelsblatt*: Published a sensational but widely-debunked report claiming the jab had just 8% efficacy among older people 

*Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Spain and Poland:* Also refused to approve the vaccine for over-65s

*Italy and Belgium: * Would not even give it to over-55s

All of this is bullshit based on lies to save face for the EU fucking it up. The U.K. has so far protected 27% of its population from Covid, no EU nation has done 7% yet. People are dying because of this, Czechia has just become the country with the highest death rate in the world. Fuck any cunt who dares defend the EU’s vaccine procurement and rollout.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Mar 1, 2021)

Yeah, initially the EU smear and shite flinging did scare a lot of older folk. I wonder how many didn’t go for their jab when called in because of the dismal attempts at deflection by the likes of scum like Macron?


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Mar 1, 2021)

The European elite are cunts. And the British elite are cunts. It really is as simple as that. All this bickering and point scoring over which politcal elite is best is completey missing the point and will get us nowhere.

Neither Brussels nor Westminster!!


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 1, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Yeah, initially the EU smear and shite flinging did scare a lot of older folk. I wonder how many didn’t go for their jab when called in because of the dismal attempts at deflection by the likes of scum like Macron?



The reports state that in Germany last week 1.5 million people were supposed to get the AZ jab, 187,000 took it, ffs.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Mar 1, 2021)

Count Cuckula said:


> The European elite are cunts. And the British elite are cunts. It really is as simple as that.



And what exit from the EU achieved was getting one set of them off our collective backs.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 1, 2021)

not-bono-ever said:


> the vilest of the vile are now in power for the forseeable. FFS


Was that ever news?


----------



## Maggot (Mar 1, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> It's ironic that many of the EU can do no wrong/UK can do no right views that some Remainers put over on here would be laughed at in Europe.


No one here actually thinks that.


----------



## Maggot (Mar 2, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Most remainer arguments I’m seeing are:
> 
> 
> 4.frankly bizarre arguments over immediate transitional government problems/issues. Bizarre because leaving a political construct that we’ve been embedded in for over half a century has actually gone remarkably smoothly. As you say, anger about paperwork.
> ...


I don't call a huge drop in exports, businesses struggling with extra costs, rotting shellfish that can't be exported, billions lost in City trading, the end of the Erasmus scheme, supply problems in Northern Ireland, become less safe due to not sharing data, the loss of opportunity to live and work in 27 other countries, the billions it has cost our government etc etc as anger about paperwork.


----------



## krtek a houby (Mar 2, 2021)

Maggot said:


> I don't call a huge drop in exports, businesses struggling with extra costs, rotting shellfish that can't be exported, billions lost in City trading, the end of the Erasmus scheme, supply problems in Northern Ireland, become less safe due to not sharing data, the loss of opportunity to live and work in 27 other countries, the billions it has cost our government etc etc as anger about paperwork.



Somebody please think of the city traders


----------



## editor (Mar 2, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> And fuck this shit,
> 
> 
> *French president Emmanuel Macron *: Claimed that the jab was 'quasi-ineffective' among over-65s and said UK had taken a risk with quick approval
> ...


We also managed to clock up the highest number of daily covid cases and the biggest death rate in Europe during the second wave because of that plucky go-it-alone British spirit.



The vaccine is one of the very things they got more or less right.


----------



## Humberto (Mar 2, 2021)

Follow the money usually isn't it? We never get what they promise us, yet themselves make out like bandits. They are never going to benefit you or me, it's just a limiting delusion that they sell you.


----------



## Yossarian (Mar 2, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> And fuck this shit,
> 
> 
> *French president Emmanuel Macron *: Claimed that the jab was 'quasi-ineffective' among over-65s and said UK had taken a risk with quick approval
> ...



It's not just the EU - Canadian authorities have recommended against giving the AstraZeneca vaccine to over 65s, citing "limited information on its efficacy" in that age group. 

I think the advice might change soon though - it'd probably make sense if people had lots of vaccines to choose from, but rollout has been extremely slow , vaccines are in short supply, and the British COVID variant is spreading widely - Canadian authorities decided that since there was a danger of Donald Trump banning vaccine exports, they should order from European suppliers instead of American ones.



			https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/astra-zeneca-vaccine-naci-age-1.5932347


----------



## Saul Goodman (Mar 2, 2021)




----------



## William of Walworth (Mar 2, 2021)

David Clapson said:
			
		

> Yesterday's Observer piece about how well the UK is doing and how the Germans are jealous of us seems relevant. But I can't read it properly because the opening makes me too furious. I hate to say it, but Britain's doing OK. Even Germany envies us...





ItWillNeverWork said:


> I wonder what the German compound word for the opposite of schadenfreude is. Siegweinen, maybe? Answers on a postcard.



My take on that admittedly highly annoying article (  ) was that it was at least _attempting_ to take the piss out of Remainerism and out of so-called 'UK is evil and the EU is wonderful' attitudes**.

But a better writer would have made a better and job of it that  actually achieved humour  

**Which (like racism and condemning Brexit people as thick!)  are IMO *far* less common even amongst 'Guardianista remainers', ley alone amongst *real* remain-type people,, than is often assumed round here . 
But I have neither the time nor inclination to get into all that again!  .... not now, anyway


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Mar 2, 2021)

Fair play to Planet Remain for its latest act of brave guerrilla war in support of a neo-liberal trading bloc. But if they target the square sausage retribution will be swift...


----------



## redsquirrel (Mar 2, 2021)

What the hell's FBPPR stand for? Follow back...?


----------



## fishfinger (Mar 2, 2021)

Follow Back Pro Proportional Representation.


----------



## dessiato (Mar 2, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Fair play to Planet Remain for its latest act of brave guerrilla war in support of a neo-liberal trading bloc. But if they target the square sausage retribution will be swift...
> 
> View attachment 256928


It’s “British week” in Lidl here. There’s lots of British themed products on offer. It’s still easy to avoid the Union flag products though.


----------



## Elpenor (Mar 2, 2021)

Intentionally seeking greater food miles?

(in response to Smokeandsteam post)


----------



## dessiato (Mar 2, 2021)

Elpenor said:


> Intentionally seeking greater food miles?


They’re also promoting, more heavily, Andalusian products. That must seriously reduce the food miles.


----------



## redsquirrel (Mar 2, 2021)

fishfinger said:


> Follow Back Pro Proportional Representation.


Ta, thought it might be something about rejoining. So basically another mark of loon LibDemery


----------



## Elpenor (Mar 2, 2021)

dessiato said:


> They’re also promoting, more heavily, Andalusian products. That must seriously reduce the food miles.



I was replying to Smokeandsteam . Will edit my post


----------



## Yossarian (Mar 2, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Fair play to Planet Remain for its latest act of brave guerrilla war in support of a neo-liberal trading bloc. But if they target the square sausage retribution will be swift...
> 
> View attachment 256928



I would be ashamed to be seen with a block of butter boasting that it's British butter wrapped in a Union flag with a smaller Union flag on it - if I did buy it, I would definitely use the self-checkout instead of having to worry that the checkout girl thought I was a BNP supporter or something.


----------



## kebabking (Mar 2, 2021)

dessiato said:


> It’s “British week” in Lidl here. There’s lots of British themed products on offer. It’s still easy to avoid the Union flag products though.



So you want British diplomatic protection for your lifestyle, but refuse to buy our food?

Cool story bro....


----------



## Yossarian (Mar 2, 2021)

kebabking said:


> So you want British diplomatic protection for your lifestyle, but refuse to buy our food?
> 
> Cool story bro....



"Buy our food or else!"  

What does "British diplomatic protection for your lifestyle"  mean, anyway? Is any expat in the EU's lifestyle at the mercy of the Foreign Office?


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Mar 2, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> I would be ashamed to be seen with a block of butter boasting that it's British butter wrapped in a Union flag with a smaller Union flag on it



What about margarine?


----------



## Yossarian (Mar 2, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> What about margarine?



Real margarine only comes from the Margarine region in France.


----------



## dessiato (Mar 2, 2021)

kebabking said:


> So you want British diplomatic protection for your lifestyle, but refuse to buy our food?
> 
> Cool story bro....


I don't refuse to buy your food. I recently bought a 600g tub of Marmite, which I have with cheddar cheese.

I sometimes buy British beer, but prefer Belgian. 

I buy up to 99% of my food in Andalusia.


----------



## NoXion (Mar 2, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> I would be ashamed to be seen with a block of butter boasting that it's British butter wrapped in a Union flag with a smaller Union flag on it - if I did buy it, I would definitely use the self-checkout instead of having to worry that the checkout girl thought I was a BNP supporter or something.



This kind of anti-patriotism is actually pretty cringeworthy. It's like an inverted version of US flag worship and just as silly.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 2, 2021)

NoXion said:


> This kind of anti-patriotism is actually pretty cringeworthy. It's like like an inverted version of US flag worship and just as silly.


Yossarian was _definitely_ being entirely serious there.


----------



## NoXion (Mar 2, 2021)

_"It's just a joke, bruh"_


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 2, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> What about margarine?


flagrant whataboutery


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Mar 2, 2021)

dessiato said:


> I don't refuse to buy your food. I recently bought a 600g tub of Marmite, which I have with cheddar cheese.
> 
> I sometimes buy British beer, but prefer Belgian.
> 
> I buy up to 99% of my food in Andalusia.




Where do you stand on sausages?


----------



## brogdale (Mar 2, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> flagrant whataboutery


I can't believe how utterly thinly spread that argument is.


----------



## Supine (Mar 2, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Where do you stand on sausages?



Vegetarian so indifferent at best


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 2, 2021)

dessiato said:


> I don't refuse to buy your food. I recently bought a 600g tub of Marmite, which I have with cheddar cheese.
> 
> I sometimes buy British beer, but prefer Belgian.
> 
> I buy up to 99% of my food in Andalusia.



How much was the marmite? Its 24 euros on Amazon Spain. I suppose the only UK food that I buy here regularly is tea and cheddar (although it's the mass produced factory supermarket stuff it still better than the Portugues idea of sliced sandwich Cheddar)  tbh. Normally buy a packet of UK danish bacon about every three months, a jar of Horlicks in winter, occasionally Openshaw pork scratchings, and ginger beer from Amazon Spain. I used to rely on friends coming over for marmite, Bovril and Colemans mustard, I'm fully stocked with them but will have to find another way of getting them.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Mar 2, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> All of this is bullshit based on lies to save face for the EU fucking it up. The U.K. has so far protected 27% of its population from Covid, no EU nation has done 7% yet. People are dying because of this, Czechia has just become the country with the highest death rate in the world. Fuck any cunt who dares defend the EU’s vaccine procurement and rollout.


Let's be clear here, the UK has massively fucked up it's response to Covid and has the fifth highest death rate in the world.  Protected it's population, are you having a laugh?.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 2, 2021)

sleaterkinney said:


> Let's be clear here, the UK has massively fucked up it's response to Covid and has the fifth highest death rate in the world.  Protected it's population, are you having a laugh?.


the uk hasn't massively fucked up its response to the virus, the government and in particular johnson and hancock (plus the former spad cummings) massively fucked up the response to covid. and it's only good fortune that we don't have an even higher number of fatalities.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 2, 2021)

sleaterkinney said:


> Let's be clear here, the UK has massively fucked up it's response to Covid and has the fifth highest death rate in the world.  Protected it's population, are you having a laugh?.



The UK government has fucked the response to Covid, as have most others when you actually look, (take a look at the situation in Czechia today and see that it was caused by a December election that the pres didn't want to risk by ordering lockdown and facemasks). What this has to do with the UK getting the vaccine rollout right when countries that were pressured in to leaving it to the EU are suffering excess deaths I am sure you will enlighten us.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Mar 2, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> the uk hasn't massively fucked up its response to the virus, the government and in particular johnson and hancock (plus the former spad cummings) massively fucked up the response to covid. and it's only good fortune that we don't have an even higher number of fatalities.


if you go back and check the post I replied to, he was talking about governments.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 2, 2021)

sleaterkinney said:


> if you go back and check the post I replied to, he was talking about governments.




And 27% od the UK's population are vaccinated, no EU nation has managed to do 7%. Apparently that is having a laugh. I'm not smiling,  the needless deaths caused by this delay are nothing to laugh about.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Mar 2, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> The UK government has fucked the response to Covid, as have most others when you actually look, (take a look at the situation in Czechia today and see that it was caused by a December election that the pres didn't want to risk by ordering lockdown and facemasks). What this has to do with the UK getting the vaccine rollout right when countries that were pressured in to leaving it to the EU are suffering excess deaths I am sure you will enlighten us.


Hang on, the Czech situation was caused by not having a lockdown or masks or by the EU vaccine rollout - which is it?. 

Do you think our own lockdown has had an effect?. We will soon find out when the kids go back to school - the govt are protecting the population, right?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 2, 2021)

sleaterkinney said:


> Hang on, the Czech situation was caused by not having a lockdown or masks or by the EU vaccine rollout - which is it?.
> 
> Do you think our own lockdown has had an effect?. We will soon find out when the kids go back to school - the govt are protecting the population, right?




This is a thread about Brexit, not Covid. One undeniable plus of the UK leaving the EU has been the vaccine rollout, although there are some who are so enraged by Brexit they still try to deny this.

The Czech situation was mentioned to show that the UK is no alone in fucking up the Covid response, most other governments have too, my step-mum's aunt died recently of it, she was in her 80's and not vaccinated as she lived in Holland, step mum is in her 60's and had the jab some time ago, she lives in Hampshire. The Dutch government royally fucked their Covid response too, calling masks 'face-nappies' ffs.

Anyway, back to the issue at hand, 27% of people in the UK have been vaccinated, all the evidence so far shows that with one jab you don't get seriously ill, so yeah, protected. I imagine that rates will climb again from next Monday when the kids return, but with close to one third of the population already being jabbed up for those people it doesn't matter, and that third are those most at risk of becoming seriously ill from it, so they are protected where our EU cousins are not.


----------



## dessiato (Mar 2, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Where do you stand on sausages?


I don't stand on them. That spoils their flavour, although it does stop them rolling around.


----------



## editor (Mar 2, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> And 27% od the UK's population are vaccinated, no EU nation has managed to do 7%. Apparently that is having a laugh. I'm not smiling,  the needless deaths caused by this delay are nothing to laugh about.


This is like having a flag-waving Torybot posting.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 2, 2021)

editor said:


> This is like having a flag-waving Torybot posting.




You are like an Egyptian fisherman.


----------



## dessiato (Mar 2, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> How much was the marmite? Its 24 euros on Amazon Spain. I suppose the only UK food that I buy here regularly is tea and cheddar (although it's the mass produced factory supermarket stuff it still better than the Portugues idea of sliced sandwich Cheddar)  tbh. Normally buy a packet of UK danish bacon about every three months, a jar of Horlicks in winter, occasionally Openshaw pork scratchings, and ginger beer from Amazon Spain. I used to rely on friends coming over for marmite, Bovril and Colemans mustard, I'm fully stocked with them but will have to find another way of getting them.


It was about that price, I got it from Amazon Spain. Bovril, Coleman's mustard, are easily available in Carrefour here. All the other stuff is readily available in Nerja where there's a lot of Brit shops.

We also have Dealz here which is a bit like a pound shop and carries a lot of UK products.


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 2, 2021)

“I am aware that alone a country can be a speedboat, while the EU is more like a tanker,” Von der Leyen


----------



## editor (Mar 2, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> You are like an Egyptian fisherman.


Sounds a bit racist.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 2, 2021)

editor said:


> Sounds a bit racist.


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 2, 2021)

dessiato said:


> It was about that price, I got it from Amazon Spain. Bovril, Coleman's mustard, are easily available in Carrefour here. All the other stuff is readily available in Nerja where there's a lot of Brit shops.
> 
> We also have Dealz here which is a bit like a pound shop and carries a lot of UK products.


We've got these fairly near me, not cheap mind. I haven't been there for a year or so.








						Home
					

The best of British Brands you know and love The best of British Brands you know and love.  OVERSEAS        Exclusive Stockists:    We´re on a mission to bring you your favourite foods.    Warburtons Crumpets  Yorkshire




					overseas.es


----------



## Steel Icarus (Mar 2, 2021)

editor said:


> Sounds a bit racist.


"In de Nile"


----------



## Ax^ (Mar 2, 2021)

one more thing we can lay at the door of brexiters is the latest game of one upmanship amongst politicions in standing in front of flags of increasing size and numbers

*shakes fist at sky


----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 2, 2021)

cupid_stunt said:


> Well, there's one benefit no one can deny, we were able to secure covid vaccines far quicker outside the fucked up bureaucracy of the EU.
> 
> Oh, and how they throw their toys out of their pram over that, bless them.



I've got to apologise for this innocent post that turned the thread into one mainly concerning vaccines, I honestly assumed that everyone knew how they had fucked up, and there wouldn't be an argument about it, but then this is urban.


----------



## Johnny Doe (Mar 2, 2021)

cupid_stunt said:


> I've got to apologise for this innocent post that turned the thread into one mainly concerning vaccines, I honestly assumed that everyone knew how they had fucked up, and there wouldn't be an argument about it, but then this is urban.


I was about to ask if you were me where and then I read your last line. So, in fact, you should have been completely aware of the cyclical bunfight which would go on


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 2, 2021)

sleaterkinney said:


> the govt are protecting the population, right?


----------



## Supine (Mar 2, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> one more thing we can lay at the door of brexiters is the latest game of one upmanship amongst politicions in standing in front of flags of increasing size and numbers
> 
> *shakes fist at sky



The rise of post Brexit jingoism


----------



## cantsin (Mar 2, 2021)

TopCat said:


> I was in Lidl old Kent road. No shortages. That lovely beer was well stocked.



there's hope yet


----------



## Yossarian (Mar 2, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Yossarian was _definitely_ being entirely serious there.



I may not have been entirely serious, but avoiding food covered in too many flags doesn't seem like a bad policy - if I went to the US and saw "Farmer Bob's Real AMERICAN Butter" on sale wrapped in an American flag packet with another American flag on it, I'd suspect that either the producer was using patriotism to sell substandard butter or that Bob had links to right-wing militias.


----------



## krtek a houby (Mar 2, 2021)

Stick to Kerrygold


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 3, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Where do you stand on sausages?



On the Richmonds sausage factory's dirty floor, going by the taste of them.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 3, 2021)

S☼I said:


> "In de Nile"


Point out some obvious facts that don't suit the remoaner agenda and you're a flag waving tory now.

Christ almighty. Bitter much?


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Mar 4, 2021)

Another thing we can thank brexiteers for. Risking the end of Irish peace:









						Loyalist group withdraws support for Good Friday Agreement
					

It says it will not support the Good Friday Agreement unless changes are made to the NI Protocol.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## krtek a houby (Mar 4, 2021)

Or we can thank them for hastening Irish unity.


----------



## William of Walworth (Mar 4, 2021)

Yossarian said:
			
		

> I would be ashamed to be seen with a block of butter boasting that it's British butter wrapped in a Union flag with a smaller Union flag on it - if I did buy it, I would definitely use the self-checkout instead of having to worry that the checkout girl thought I was a BNP supporter or something.







NoXion said:


> *This kind of anti-patriotism is actually pretty cringeworthy*. It's like an inverted version of US flag worship and just as silly.



I completely agree, but in real life the anti-patriotism thing (   ) is IMO and IME very rare ......


----------



## Idris2002 (Mar 5, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> View attachment 256758


Never, in the field of human embarassment, have so many cringed at so few.


----------



## Idris2002 (Mar 5, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> Or we can thank them for hastening Irish unity.


Careful now, we don't want to jinx it.


----------



## muscovyduck (Mar 5, 2021)

Not quite sure what's gone on at work, whether it's a paperwork thing or issues with longer wait times or what, but the EU based suppliers are slowly getting replaced with local ones.


----------



## brogdale (Mar 5, 2021)

muscovyduck said:


> Not quite sure what's gone on at work, whether it's a paperwork thing or issues with longer wait times or what, but the EU based suppliers are slowly getting replaced with local ones.


My poor old Renault was at the garage for nearly 3 weeks waiting for a part from France. FWIW, garage said such parts were becoming to be a real problem for them.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 5, 2021)

brogdale said:


> My poor old Renault was at the garage for nearly 3 weeks waiting for a part from France. FWIW, garage said such parts were becoming to be a real problem for them.


 If the EU were going to make me wait for car parts I'd at least want them to be German.


----------



## muscovyduck (Mar 5, 2021)

brogdale said:


> My poor old Renault was at the garage for nearly 3 weeks waiting for a part from France. FWIW, garage said such parts were becoming to be a real problem for them.


It's one of those things innit, I'm waiting on an iron I ordered without thinking from somewhere in Europe because the selection I could order from the UK was surprisingly limited. I'm cautiously optimistic a lot of these issues will sort themselves out but it's not great in the meantime and it will take a while. Also, this suggests I trust free-market capitalism to fix itself which doesn't seem right?


----------



## brogdale (Mar 5, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> If the EU were going to make me wait for car parts I'd at least want them to be German.


Not much use in a French car, though.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 5, 2021)

French car parts have always been an issue, they require unique tools to work on them too, far better to go German or Japanese/Korean.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 5, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> French car parts have always been an issue, they require unique tools to work on them ...


French mechanics.


----------



## brogdale (Mar 5, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> French car parts have always been an issue, they require unique tools to work on them too, far better to go German or Japanese/Korean.


Got car from a relative; beggars can't be choosers.
That said, I have had a few French made cars in my time.


----------



## two sheds (Mar 5, 2021)

Is it not just Citroens that need special tools?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 5, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Got car from a relative; beggars can't be choosers.
> That said, I have a few French made cars in my time.



Only had one, a Megane, just changing the oil was a palaver, of course a normal socket set won't undo the bolt on the sump, a trip to a parts specialist to purchase a special bit was needed, nice car but ballache to work on.

edit, two sheds, mine was a Renault.


----------



## two sheds (Mar 5, 2021)

Yes Citroens are buggers to work on, not that I ever really tried - I've never been good at working on cars. I only remember one car-mechanical triumph and that was on a Beetle.


----------



## brogdale (Mar 5, 2021)

Point was...according to my local garage...EU parts are a pain in the arse for them atm.
When we booked it in they said that a 2 day delivery service had become more like 7 day and by the time we picked up, they thought would be more like 14 days.


----------



## William of Walworth (Mar 5, 2021)

Our camper is from 2004, and it's a Renault Trafic conversion ..... 

</crosses fingers!  >

Saying that, the MOT and service last October went fine, and it's scarcly moved from outside our house since then!


----------



## Supine (Mar 5, 2021)

It's lucky we have such a strong choice of UK cars to chose from lol


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Mar 5, 2021)

Supine said:


> It's lucky we have such a strong choice of UK cars to chose from lol



There are plenty of cars built here.


----------



## Doppelgänger (Mar 5, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> There are plenty of cars built here.


There are only really Mini, Toyota, Honda and Nissan which are British made. Anything else is niche/high end.

Honda are also closing, so that doesn't leave much.


----------



## ska invita (Mar 5, 2021)

Doppelgänger said:


> There are only really Mini, Toyota, Honda and Nissan which are British made. Anything else is niche/high end.
> 
> Honda are also closing, so that doesn't leave much.



minis are the only patriotic choice - if you havent got the union jack etched into your indicators you should probably think about moving to russia


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Mar 5, 2021)

Doppelgänger said:


> There are only really Mini, Toyota, Honda and Nissan which are British made. Anything else is niche/high end.
> 
> Honda are also closing, so that doesn't leave much.



About 1.5m cars are built/assembled here every year. The capacity to build more exists. In the West Midlands alone we could easily double capacity at Solihull, Castle Bromwich and Wolverhampton.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 5, 2021)

Sunderland is ramping up production of Nissans, including electric cars which secures the long term future.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Mar 5, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Sunderland is ramping up product of Nissans, including electric cars which secured the long term future.



Yes. The capacity and the skills exist in the North East too. And Liverpool. And Luton. If any company wants to build more cars here they can...


----------



## 2hats (Mar 5, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I agree with some of that. However, the UK's gamble on prioritising first jab does appear to be paying off. Agree that it's too early to tell for definite, but the first results are very encouraging, showing a high level of protection, even for the very old, from just one jab.
> 
> Covid-19 news: One dose of Pfizer vaccine greatly reduced transmission
> 
> First real world covid-19 vaccine studies show 'spectacular' results


Unfortunately there are screaming flaws in all those studies.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 5, 2021)

2hats said:


> Unfortunately there are screaming flaws in all those studies.


Could you elaborate on these please?


----------



## 2hats (Mar 5, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Could you elaborate on these please?


No robust treatment of seropositives.

Numerous biases - which one of the studies does at least admit to.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 5, 2021)

2hats said:


> No robust treatment of seropositives.


Can you expand on what you mean by that? Do you mean that people who may be immune due to previous infection are potentially having their immunity wrongly attributed to the vaccine?


----------



## Doppelgänger (Mar 5, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> About 1.5m cars are built/assembled here every year. The capacity to build more exists. In the West Midlands alone we could easily double capacity at Solihull, Castle Bromwich and Wolverhampton.



920k in 2020.

I guess a big reduction is due to COVID, but how much can be attributed to Brexit. I guess 2021 figures will reveal that in time...

The issue that the majority of produced cars are exported, the Brits want to buy other cars.

We will no doubt see a change of habits over time, but will domestic consumption be enough to offset any loses in overseas markets?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 5, 2021)

2hats said:


> No robust treatment of seropositives.
> 
> Numerous biases - which one of the studies does at least admit to.



Wtf is a seropositive and why does it need robust treatment? I’m happy to go and kick it’s cunt in if it’s enough of a wrong’un.


----------



## 2hats (Mar 5, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Can you expand on what you mean by that? Do you mean that people who may be immune due to previous infection are potentially having their immunity wrongly attributed to the vaccine?


Poor baselines.

In the first study the proportion of seropositives was assumed to be tiny based on one previous small study at one hospital conducted some 8-9 months ago. There was no attempt to determine how many participants actually had previous exposure.

In the second study (PHS), they claim to have screened seropositives based on PCR test history, except that ignores the untested, non-PCR testing and false negatives (we have long known true number of infections has always easily far exceeded recorded cases). They also estimated vaccine effects against hospital admissions only, ignoring other outcomes. Also, biases due to non-uniform uptake of vaccine types across age cohorts and typical infection risk factors associated with receiving each vaccine type.

The third study I can only guess at (I don't have a subscription and that's even less likely now) but presumably it's the PHE vaccination study published the same day. Discussion of seropositives is poor (there is a footnote implying attempted but potentially flawed exclusion) but the results underlined (indeed, emphasised) how important a second dose of BNT162b2 is at the manufacturer's dosing interval, particularly in older cohorts. They did at least list some of the confounders (eg variation in risk per participant, misclassification, seropositives, wide variation in post-dose behaviours).

But this belongs in a different thread.


----------



## 2hats (Mar 6, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Wtf is a seropositive and why does it need robust treatment?


No point conducting a study into the efficacy of a single dose if you don't establish exactly which participants were previously infected (seropositive). There are numerous good (well controlled) studies now out that indicate that a single dose swiftly induces a huge immune response in the previously infected (two or more orders of magnitude greater than seronegatives even achieve after their second dose, and that in a matter of a few days).


----------



## Stay Beautiful (Mar 6, 2021)

MrSki said:


> A thank you to all the Brexiteers on the boards for not rubbing my nose in all the benefits that Brexit has achieved. It is very kind of you not to gloat in all that you won.



That's alright. No problem.


----------



## keybored (Mar 6, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Not much use in a French car, though.


Nothing ever is.


----------



## dessiato (Mar 6, 2021)

keybored said:


> Nothing ever is.


I've never had a problem with French cars. 

(But I've never owned one either)


----------



## ska invita (Mar 6, 2021)

dessiato said:


> I've never had a problem with French cars.


theyre very rude


----------



## pogofish (Mar 6, 2021)

It’s been touch and-go getting my EU-made insulin needles. However the pharmacist has just texted to say that supplies have finally arrived.

Thank-fuck I had built-up a little stockpile in case this happened. I’ve used about a third of it whilst waiting.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 6, 2021)

2hats said:


> No point conducting a study into the efficacy of a single dose if you don't establish exactly which participants were previously infected (seropositive). There are numerous good (well controlled) studies now out that indicate that a single dose swiftly induces a huge immune response in the previously infected (two or more orders of magnitude greater than seronegatives even achieve after their second dose, and that in a matter of a few days).


Thanks for the explanations. I read somewhere that France was planning to only give one dose to people with previous positive tests for this reason. Effectively it's a second dose for such people.

Clearly it introduces noise into the data wrt the efficacy of one dose (and here in the UK, _a lot of_ people fall into the 'previously infected' category), but it doesn't necessarily weaken the case for the policy to prioritise one dose. In fact, depending on the exact numbers, the fact that a single dose is massively effective for the previously infected could strengthen the case to prioritise one dose. So long as the second dose remains just as effective when it is eventually given (a big if, perhaps), it doesn't really matter why a single dose gives good results, just that it gives good results.

So these results are still tentatively good news. They just need a bit of an asterisk against them to warn what they don't say. One part of the study in Scotland was that it showed a 57 per cent decrease in the likelihood of death among the very old once they'd been vaccinated once. That's a more conservative figure to take as an indication of its effectiveness. Somewhere around 50-60 per cent in a group that is considered least likely to respond well to the vaccine is still pretty good.


----------



## Maggot (Mar 7, 2021)

redsquirrel said:


> Ta, thought it might be something about rejoining. So basically another mark of loon LibDemery


So wanting a fairer voting system makes you a 'loon' now?


----------



## gosub (Mar 7, 2021)

Maggot said:


> So wanting a fairer voting system makes you a 'loon' now?



European elections UKIP and then Brexit party always did much better than the Lib Dems.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 7, 2021)

gosub said:


> European elections UKIP and then Brexit party always did much better than the Lib Dems.




Had we had PR at the 2015 elections UKIP would have had far more MPs than the Lib Dems.


----------



## kebabking (Mar 8, 2021)

Being a cynical soul, I notice that's parties who do badly in elections who tend to want _fairer _electoral systems...

I wonder how many of the labour people calling for some form of PR were happily against it when FPTP was a system that had delivered them three straight victories in a row, and voted to retain FPTP in the referendum that so captivated the nation - I mean that everyone ignored...?


----------



## redsquirrel (Mar 8, 2021)

Maggot said:


> So wanting a fairer voting system makes you a 'loon' now?


They certainly are when they have some silly twitter handle denoting their liberal love in.


kebabking said:


> I wonder how many of the labour people calling for some form of PR were happily against it when FPTP was a system that had delivered them three straight victories in a row, and voted to retain FPTP in the referendum that so captivated the nation - I mean that everyone ignored...?


Is it Labour people that are calling for PR? (At least in the main, I know there are some). I think a lot of LP people realise that FPTP is what has kept their party alive - in contrast to the other European social democratic parties.  

Seems to me the PR is most favoured by the piss yellow scum (ala Maggot above) and the Corbyn leaning, progressive coalition crowd that have now tended to have left the LP. What's bizarre is that the aims of these two groups are opposed.
I can understand why liberals want PR, they (correctly) believe it would reinforce their power, for the LDs giving them more seats (and effectively becoming the kingmakers), and for the liberals in the LP it provides a block on the left of the party. I cannot really understand the support of PR from the latter, it would block any possibly of democratic socialism (at least in the medium term).


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 8, 2021)

Marks and Sparks have opened a  Portuguese website and are rolling out A further 45 abroad. No food though.


----------



## gosub (Mar 8, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Marks and Sparks have opened a  Portuguese website and are rolling out A further 45 abroad. No food though.



Made the same mistake 20years ago when they tried to go global.  They'd already trashed the quality of the clothing brand.  Their food quality has always been good , and it does n't matter what culture your from alway going to miss the food culture you grew up with.... AT the time bloke made a fortune airfreighting Walker's crisps into HK


----------



## two sheds (Mar 8, 2021)

Morrisons have bought Falfish (Falmouth based fish company) - presumably to supply within UK. Also apparently given the staff a pay rise.


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 8, 2021)

gosub said:


> Made the same mistake 20years ago when they tried to go global.  They'd already trashed the quality of the clothing brand.  Their food quality has always been good , and it does n't matter what culture your from alway going to miss the food culture you grew up with.... AT the time bloke made a fortune airfreighting Walker's crisps into HK



Quite like this shirt though


----------



## Maggot (Mar 8, 2021)

redsquirrel said:


> Seems to me the PR is most favoured by the piss yellow scum (ala Maggot above)


Please explain your insult.


----------



## Maggot (Mar 8, 2021)

On International Womens Day, here's  the womens equality directives issued by the EU.









						Equality between women and men
					

Equality between women and men is laid out in the chapter on equality of the EU Charter of Fundamental Rights.




					ec.europa.eu


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 8, 2021)

Fords strike in UK for equal pay  which led to the Equal Pay Act 1970


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 8, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Marks and Sparks have opened a  Portuguese website and are rolling out A further 45 abroad. No food though.



The Gibraltar one has never sold food either, in Hong Kong it does though, the same stuff you get in the U.K., or at least it did two years ago, maybe changing now


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 8, 2021)

redsquirrel said:


> They certainly are when they have some silly twitter handle denoting their liberal love in.
> Is it Labour people that are calling for PR? (At least in the main, I know there are some). I think a lot of LP people realise that FPTP is what has kept their party alive - in contrast to the other European social democratic parties.
> 
> Seems to me the PR is most favoured by the piss yellow scum (ala Maggot above) and the Corbyn leaning, progressive coalition crowd that have now tended to have left the LP. What's bizarre is that the aims of these two groups are opposed.
> I can understand why liberals want PR, they (correctly) believe it would reinforce their power, for the LDs giving them more seats (and effectively becoming the kingmakers), and for the liberals in the LP it provides a block on the left of the party. I cannot really understand the support of PR from the latter, it would block any possibly of democratic socialism (at least in the medium term).


One possible reason would be precisely because it would split the labour party. Something like what has happened in Spain. So you still have a labour party, equivalent of psoe, but you also have a 'left of Labour' party, equivalent of podemos. With pr it is very possible that the two can end up in coalition in power, or at the least with the right labour needing the left Labour's support. 

You may criticise the idea but it's not without logic as a strategy.

You could also argue that it is good for democracy and engagement for a vote for a left party to be electorally meaningful, as it is in Spain.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 8, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> One possible reason would be precisely because it would split the labour party. Something like what has happened in Spain. So you still have a labour party, equivalent of psoe, but you also have a 'left of Labour' party, equivalent of podemos. With pr it is very possible that the two can end up in coalition in power, or at the least with the right labour needing the left Labour's support.
> 
> You may criticise the idea but it's not without logic as a strategy.
> 
> You could also argue that it is good for democracy and engagement for a vote for a left party to be electorally meaningful, as it is in Spain.


It would be good for democracy if there was some in this country, rather than simply the illusion of it


----------



## NoXion (Mar 8, 2021)

I gotta say though, breaking away from Brussels has been overall more pleasant than breaking away from Rome was. I don't think we've even had a single head cut off.


----------



## redsquirrel (Mar 9, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> One possible reason would be precisely because it would split the labour party. Something like what has happened in Spain. So you still have a labour party, equivalent of psoe, but you also have a 'left of Labour' party, equivalent of podemos. With pr it is very possible that the two can end up in coalition in power, or at the least with the right labour needing the left Labour's support.


And the end result of this is - a left-liberal government. Podemos have effectively become the left wing of the PSOE (and have seen their vote share decline), how is that any different to a Labour government with a strong left wing. If that is the politics you want fine but jack in the talk about "democratic socialism".

But the above assumes that the UK would follow Spain (and Portugal). As this Jacobin article points that is far from a certain path - it is not true in Germany, Greece, Italy, or the Netherlands. 


> This model, in its original sites, also relied upon a particular set of circumstances that may not hold for very long. First of all, it required the radical-left parties to lower their sights and accept the kind of policy agenda with which their social-democratic partners would be comfortable. That meant there would be no real break with the economic paradigm of the last forty years.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 9, 2021)

NoXion said:


> I gotta say though, breaking away from Brussels has been overall more pleasant than breaking away from Rome was. I don't think we've even had a single head cut off.


More's the pity.


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 9, 2021)

redsquirrel said:


> And the end result of this is - a left-liberal government. Podemos have effectively become the left wing of the PSOE (and have seen their vote share decline), how is that any different to a Labour government with a strong left wing. If that is the politics you want fine but jack in the talk about "democratic socialism".
> 
> But the above assumes that the UK would follow Spain (and Portugal). As this Jacobin article points that is far from a certain path - it is not true in Germany, Greece, Italy, or the Netherlands.


In Portugal, the 'troika' between the Socialist Party, Communist Party and Left Bloc ended in the last election when the Socialist got enough votes to end it. Despite the separation, Left Bloc adopted a remarkably soft line with the SP and paid for it in the Presidential elections ( aided and abetted with a campaign that resembled Momentum) seeing their vote reduce by around a third. They've now had to change tack.


----------



## andysays (Mar 9, 2021)

NoXion said:


> I gotta say though, breaking away from Brussels has been overall more pleasant than breaking away from Rome was. I don't think we've even had a single head cut off.


Give it a chance mate, it's only been a couple of months


----------



## redsquirrel (Mar 9, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> In Portugal, the 'troika' between the Socialist Party, Communist Party and Left Bloc ended in the last election when the Socialist got enough votes to end it. Despite the separation, Left Bloc adopted a remarkably soft line with the SP and paid for it in the Presidential elections ( aided and abetted with a campaign that resembled Momentum) seeing their vote reduce by around a third. They've now had to change tack.


And Podemos has suffered a similar decline in fortune - from polling 21% in 2015 & 2016, to 14/13% in 2019, to the latest opinion polling haven them ~11%.

The biggest beneficiaries of centre-left/radical-left coalitions are the centre-left.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 9, 2021)

redsquirrel said:


> And Podemos has suffered a similar decline in fortune - from polling 21% in 2015 & 2016, to 14/13% in 2019, to the latest opinion polling haven them ~11%.
> 
> The biggest beneficiaries of centre-left/radical-left coalitions are the centre-left.


Sure. But in the UK's fptp system, radical left positions have held zero sway over any government policy for more than 40 years. We had a moment with Corbyn but he never made it into power, and any radical left influence within Labour has evaporated again. 

Podemos went from not existing to being in government in the space of five years.


----------



## redsquirrel (Mar 9, 2021)

For four-/five years "democratic socialists" held forth about how important it was that Corbyn was elected, about the potential this had, that those asking what was different this time were simply engaging in ultra-leftism or wannabe revolutionaries, that Labour councillors should be supported despite their attacks on workers. Now the LP is unreformable and PR is the answer. Christ.


----------



## Maggot (Mar 9, 2021)

Maggot said:


> Please explain your insult.


Still waiting redsquirrel


----------



## killer b (Mar 9, 2021)

he's calling you a lib dem.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 9, 2021)

redsquirrel said:


> For four-/five years "democratic socialists" held forth about how important it was that Corbyn was elected, about the potential this had, that those asking what was different this time were simply engaging in ultra-leftism or wannabe revolutionaries, that Labour councillors should be supported despite their attacks on workers. Now the LP is unreformable and PR is the answer. Christ.


Dunno if that's directed at me or not. I've always been in favour of PR fwiw.


----------



## Maggot (Mar 9, 2021)

What a cunt. 

Not being in favour of a system which gives tories 56% of the seats with 43% of the votes does not mean I'm a lib dem.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 9, 2021)

Maggot said:


> What a cunt.
> 
> Not being in favour of a system which gives tories 56% of the seats with 43% of the votes does not mean I'm a lib dem.


Indeed. And 'First Past the Post' is a really badly named system. There is no post. Hence big majorities can go to parties with well under half the vote. No way you'd ever design a system from scratch like that.


----------



## redsquirrel (Mar 9, 2021)

Maggot said:


> Not being in favour of a system which gives tories 56% of the seats with 43% of the votes does not mean I'm a lib dem.


Nope your shitty pro-EU, liberal technocratic politics that denies class does that. You might not actually vote LD but you are a great example of their politics. Crypto-libdemism, 


Maggot said:


> They did what they had to do.
> 
> Better to be inside the tent pissing out, than outside the tent pissing in.


----------



## Maggot (Mar 9, 2021)

redsquirrel said:


> Nope your shitty pro-EU, liberal technocratic politics that denies class does that. You might not actually vote LD but you are a great example of their politics. Crypto-libdemism,


Wow, must have taken you a while to dig out posts from 10-11 years ago just to try to prove your point. People are allowed to change their mind (except about Brexit of course). 

Denying class


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Mar 9, 2021)

I have a genuine question when it comes to brexit, and I'm being serious.

But why do we not hear anything about chlorinated chicken anymore? Before we left it was all over the news, but now it seems to have disappeared.

Are the chickens chlorinated or not?


----------



## Supine (Mar 9, 2021)

Count Cuckula said:


> I have a genuine question when it comes to brexit, and I'm being serious.
> 
> But why do we not hear anything about chlorinated chicken anymore? Before we left it was all over the news, but now it seems to have disappeared.
> 
> Are the chickens chlorinated or not?



I didn't think it had gone anywhere tbh. Maybe Biden putting the dampeners on a quick UK/USA trade deal means it's on the back burner for a while.


----------



## two sheds (Mar 9, 2021)

chicken on the back burner yum


----------



## Flavour (Mar 9, 2021)

Of all the posters to call a cunt i feel redsquirrel one of the least deserving on these boards


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 9, 2021)

Count Cuckula said:


> I have a genuine question when it comes to brexit, and I'm being serious.
> 
> But why do we not hear anything about chlorinated chicken anymore? Before we left it was all over the news, but now it seems to have disappeared.




Because people have died in the UK after eating Polish (EU) chicken.


----------



## Yossarian (Mar 9, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> The Gibraltar one has never sold food either, in Hong Kong it does though, the same stuff you get in the U.K., or at least it did two years ago, maybe changing now



They're still doing well in HK with more than a dozen food-only outlets and now home delivery as well, AFAIK.


----------



## Maggot (Mar 9, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Because people have died in the UK after eating Polish (EU) chicken.


Yes that must be it. We don't need to worry about US food standards because the EU ones aren't perfect. 

Nothing to do with the US having food poisoning rates 10 times higher than here. 






						Fears new trade deals with US will increase UK food poisoning | Sustain
					

Fresh analysis by Sustain published today flags food safety fears for future UK trade deals. Figures suggest that the percentage of people who fall ill with food poisoning annually is up to ten times higher in the US than the UK. Sustain fears treating increased food poisoning could increase...




					www.sustainweb.org


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 9, 2021)

Maggot said:


> Yes that must be it. We don't need to worry about US food standards because the EU ones aren't perfect.
> 
> Nothing to do with the US having food poisoning rates 10 times higher than here.
> 
> ...




How many chlorinated chicken articles can you find since the Polish killer chicken thing broke?


----------



## Supine (Mar 9, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> How many chlorinated chicken articles can you find since the Polish killer chicken thing broke?



Are you looking for some scientific cause and effect analysis or a simple Google?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 9, 2021)

Supine said:


> Are you looking for some scientific cause and effect analysis or a simple Google?



A detailed analysis of the two please.


----------



## two sheds (Mar 9, 2021)

killer b said:


> he's calling you a lib dem.


No, he's calling him 'scum', I think he's _implying_ that he's lib dem


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 9, 2021)

Supine said:


> I didn't think it had gone anywhere tbh. Maybe Biden putting the dampeners on a quick UK/USA trade deal means it's on the back burner for a while.


Don’t think there’s any big driver on either side for a quick Us/ U.K. deal tbh


----------



## Maggot (Mar 9, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> How many chlorinated chicken articles can you find since the Polish killer chicken thing broke?


They've moved on to carcinogenic bacon now. 









						UK-US Brexit trade deal ‘could fill supermarkets with cancer-risk bacon’
					

Fears of illness over nitrites used in US but currently banned in Britain and EU




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## bimble (Mar 10, 2021)

9 million doses of vaccine have been exported from the Eu to the Uk, very weird. Whether the UK has been exporting to EU or not does anyone know yet?










						Covid vaccine row: EU has exported 34m doses – including 9m to UK
					

Internal figures leaked amid tit-for-tat with Boris Johnson over claims UK had export ban in place




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Artaxerxes (Mar 14, 2021)

Good job the negative aspects of Brexit only affect the middle class.


----------



## Maggot (Mar 15, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Good job the negative aspects of Brexit only affect the middle class.



TBF That's not a result of Brexit, just cruel government cuts.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 15, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Good job the negative aspects of Brexit only affect the middle class.




What has this got to do with Brexit?


----------



## kebabking (Mar 15, 2021)

My roses haven't bloomed - bloody Brexit!

One of my kids has trodden in dog shit - bloody brexit!

It's raining - bloody brexit!

Artaxerxes the government's long anticipated Integrated Review is out tomorrow - its a (should be) plan for the UK's foreign, trade, diplomatic, development and defence policies and how they should support each other in pursuit of whatever wider objectives the UK sets itself. It will be that that has determined that VSO should take a hit.

It's probably going to be a rather nuanced document, and the departmental reviews that follow it - a week later for Defence - will likely see some chopping and changing of priorities.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Mar 15, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Good job the negative aspects of Brexit only affect the middle class.



Absolutely right. Well said


----------



## Maggot (Mar 15, 2021)

There's enough negatives to Brexit already. 









						The Observer view on the grim effects of Brexit being impossible to hide | Observer editorial
					

Johnson sold Britain a botched EU deal and no amount of spin or downright lies can conceal that it is falling apart




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 15, 2021)

Do remoaners ever read anything that's not the Guardian?


----------



## ska invita (Mar 15, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Do remoaners ever read anything that's not the Guardian?











						Boris Johnson challenged over Brexit business 'expletive'
					

Boris Johnson refuses to deny claims of an outburst over businesses expressing Brexit concerns.



					www.bbc.co.uk
				



?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 15, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Do remoaners ever read anything that's not the Guardian?


'It's the Observer/Guardian.'

isn't an argument.

hth


----------



## two sheds (Mar 15, 2021)




----------



## ska invita (Mar 15, 2021)

two sheds said:


> View attachment 258828











						Do something Boris! Outrage at 'sad tale' of fisheries' demise
					

BORIS JOHNSON is facing demands to urgently step up talks to secure agreements for fishing in distant waters such as Norway - with one company warning they "can't plan for anything beyond March".




					www.express.co.uk


----------



## two sheds (Mar 15, 2021)

... trust me to miss the one non-Diana-related front page this year


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 15, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> 'It's the Observer/Guardian.'
> 
> isn't an argument.
> 
> hth


Well it often is. The point being that everything that hysterical, sub-6th form standard, twonk of a Guardian reporter has guffed-up there has been covered in this and the other threads here in spades. But, it'll give you lot something to get splenetic about so I suppose it's not completely wasted.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 15, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Well it often is. The point being that everything that hysterical, sub-6th form standard, twonk of a Guardian reporter has guffed-up there has been covered in this and the other threads here in spades. But, it'll give you lot something to get splenetic about so I suppose it's not completely wasted.


he is never happier than when he's frothing impotently.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Mar 15, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> And fuck this shit,
> 
> 
> *French president Emmanuel Macron *: Claimed that the jab was 'quasi-ineffective' among over-65s and said UK had taken a risk with quick approval
> ...


I bet they are still saving face with all this "causes blood clots" business.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 15, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> he is never happier than when he's frothing impotently.


 Seriously though, look at the fucking state of the Observer piece Maggot just quoted.

It's like someone just woke Father Jack up.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 15, 2021)

sleaterkinney said:


> I bet they are still saving face with all this "causes blood clots" business.



Fewer than 40 people with blood clots after getting the jab out of 17,000,000 people, fuck knows what they’re playing at.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 15, 2021)

sleaterkinney said:


> I bet they are still saving face with all this "causes blood clots" business.


No. That seems to be something completely different. On the currently available evidence it actually looks like some kind of weird smear on AstraZeneca but by whom and why is unclear at the moment.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 15, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Fewer than 40 people with blood clots after getting the jab out of 17,000,000 people, fuck knows what they’re playing at.


Which is_ significantly lower_ than the number of thrombotic events that would be expected to be seen in an unvaccinated group of that size. 

All very strange.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 15, 2021)

Even stranger is the fact that some remoaners actually seem to_ want _it to be the case that the AZ jab is in trouble or fails, so they can can turn round and shout "SEE? BRITAIN'S NOT DOING SO WELL AFTER ALL"

Shameful.


----------



## kebabking (Mar 15, 2021)

I _think _they (EU member states) have simply lost confidence in their own vaccination system - it's all gone tits up, they are looking askance at what's happening elsewhere, and they've simply lost confidence in both the specific vaccine and the whole concept that a vaccine will come along, get dished out and all will be back to happyland - and you know what it's like when you lose confidence in a piece of machinery? Every squeak or wobble sounds and feels like a catastrophic failure is seconds away, you flinch at every pothole, you sweat like a pig as the car races up the slip road to join the motorway.

That's it, there's nothing wrong with the AZ, or any other vaccine (still wouldn't have the Russian one though...), but they've simply lost confidence in it, and no one wants to be holding the baby when the next thing goes wrong - and that's the problem, they have convinced themselves that it will go wrong.


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 15, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Well it often is. The point being that everything that hysterical, sub-6th form standard, twonk of a Guardian reporter has guffed-up there has been covered in this and the other threads here in spades. But, it'll give you lot something to get splenetic about so I suppose it's not completely wasted.


I know its one of the few free sites but its virtually become a comfort blanket for some  remainers imo


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 15, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Even stranger is the fact that some remoaners actually seem to_ want _it to be the case that the AZ jab is in trouble or fails, so they can can turn round and shout "SEE? BRITAIN'S NOT DOING WELL AFTER ALL"
> 
> Shameful.


Who's this now?  

First you moan about 'remoaners' quoting the Guardian all the time, and now this. So I checked the Guardian's take on the AZ scare, and they give this comment piece highest prominence on their front page.

There's no proof the Oxford vaccine causes blood clots. So why are people worried? | David Spiegelhalter 

You seem a bit confused.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 15, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Even stranger is the fact that some remoaners actually seem to_ want _it to be the case that the AZ jab is in trouble or fails, so they can can turn round and shout "SEE? BRITAIN'S NOT DOING SO WELL AFTER ALL"
> 
> Shameful.



Shouldn't come as a massive surprise though, one of the remain headbangers on here has been actively wishing power outages on Northern  Ireland for a couple of years now.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 15, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Who's this now?
> 
> First you moan about 'remoaners' quoting the Guardian all the time, and now this. So I checked the Guardian's take on the AZ scare, and they give this comment piece highest prominence on their front page.
> 
> ...


Phwoar! 'let's twist the fuck out of what you've posted, get the crowbar out and mangle everything together in a desperate attempt at ... something'


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 15, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Shouldn't come as a massive surprise though, one of the remain headbangers on here has been actively wishing power outages on Northern  Ireland for a couple of years now.


 Who?


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 15, 2021)

Anyway good news is that Portugal are still using AZ which they don't have much of that and less of anything else. I'm apparently now registered in the queue for phase two which will commence end of May. I was offered vaccination in the UK a month ago.


----------



## kebabking (Mar 15, 2021)

Remain/rejoin has become a cult - it's gone far beyond a question of whether the UK should be a member of the EU (and there are very good arguments for it to be), it's an identity, it's a flag for virtue signalling, it's about hectoring.

It's not an attractive look.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 15, 2021)

kebabking said:


> Remain/rejoin has become a cult - it's gone far beyond a question of whether the UK should be a member of the EU (and there are very good arguments for it to be), it's an identity, it's a flag for virtue signalling, it's about hectoring.
> 
> It's not an attractive look.


Absolutely.

sleaterkinney's post #287 is an excellent example of this.


----------



## Yossarian (Mar 15, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Even stranger is the fact that some remoaners actually seem to_ want _it to be the case that the AZ jab is in trouble or fails, so they can can turn round and shout "SEE? BRITAIN'S NOT DOING SO WELL AFTER ALL"



That might be the most hysterical guff I've ever seen on this thread.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 15, 2021)

It's also not an attractive look to dismiss posts cos they link to the Guardian, rather than engaging with the points raised. Brexit is a fuck up, the way it's been done, over and beyond what it could have been, due to a combination of Tory incompetence and political cynicism. That's not even a pro/anti-Brexit point, or it shouldn't be.


----------



## krtek a houby (Mar 15, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Even stranger is the fact that some remoaners actually seem to_ want _it to be the case that the AZ jab is in trouble or fails, so they can can turn round and shout "SEE? BRITAIN'S NOT DOING SO WELL AFTER ALL"
> 
> Shameful.



Time to stop calling them remoaners and leave it at moaners.

Or EUnionists.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 15, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> Time to stop calling them remoaners and leave it at moaners.
> 
> Or EUnionists.


Or figments of Spymaster's imagination. 

One of those.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 15, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> It's also not an attractive look to dismiss posts cos they link to the Guardian, rather than engaging with the points raised.



Oh do fuck off! 

Every one of those points has been done to fucking death. It's just another bit of remoaner wankery to kick shit off again. You fucking discuss it for the 100th time if you want. I'm going to take the piss.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 15, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> That might be the most hysterical guff I've ever seen on this thread.


we're only eleven pages in


----------



## Supine (Mar 15, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> Time to stop calling them remoaners and leave it at moaners.
> 
> Or EUnionists.



Or time to grow up and stop calling them silly names.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 15, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Oh do fuck off!
> 
> Every one of those points has been done to fucking death. It's just another bit of remoaner wankery to kick shit off again. You fucking discuss it for the 100th time if you want. I'm going to take the piss.


Making up shit and ascribing said shit to 'remoaners' is really fucking boring.

hth


----------



## Yossarian (Mar 15, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> we're only eleven pages in



Ah, I thought this was the bigger thread. Still, "Remoaners want the coronavirus vaccine half the country got to fail so Britain will look bad" would take some beating on that thread, or a Daily Express comments section.


----------



## 2hats (Mar 15, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Which is_ significantly lower_ than the number of thrombotic events that would be expected to be seen in an unvaccinated group of that size.
> 
> All very strange.


Not really. AZD1222 happens to contain a component that may coincidentally play a role in the break down of blood clots.

The regulators are just acting with caution as all the COVID-19 vaccines are currently approved for emergency use only. So any suspected adverse reactions must be reported and considered.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 15, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Making up shit and ascribing said shit to 'remoaners' is really fucking boring.


Says the remoaner who's just bent himself into a polo to make up some shit.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 15, 2021)

2hats said:


> AZD1222 happens to contain a component that coincidentally breaks down blood clots.



So it reduces clotting?


----------



## 2hats (Mar 15, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> So it reduces clotting?


Not necessarily.


----------



## krtek a houby (Mar 15, 2021)

Supine said:


> Or time to grow up and stop calling them silly names.



They started it


----------



## sleaterkinney (Mar 15, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Even stranger is the fact that some remoaners actually seem to_ want _it to be the case that the AZ jab is in trouble or fails, so they can can turn round and shout "SEE? BRITAIN'S NOT DOING SO WELL AFTER ALL"
> 
> Shameful.


It's a good point tbf. 

I don't want to see Johnson, Gove, Hancock get any plaudits, not Britain per se.


----------



## kebabking (Mar 15, 2021)

Most importantly, it's not a zero sum game - a dozen blood clots causing umpteen million people to not get a vaccine that will keep them out of hospital, and keep them out of the ground.

Too much risk, not enough benefit....


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 15, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Who?












						The big Brexit thread - news, updates and discussion
					

It has improved the situation because there is less violence, I haven't said it has solved the problem.  I am conflicted because I believe Irish nationalism is valid in order to loosen the grip of perfidious Albion, but I am not a fan of nationalism as such, as in my opinion the concept sails...




					www.urban75.net


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Mar 15, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> It's also not an attractive look to dismiss posts cos they link to the Guardian, rather than engaging with the points raised. Brexit is a fuck up, the way it's been done, over and beyond what it could have been, due to a combination of Tory incompetence and political cynicism. That's not even a pro/anti-Brexit point, or it shouldn't be.



I don’t think the post is being dismissed because it’s in the Observer. I think it’s being dismissed because it’s a _complete_ non-story.

In that sense it’s part of a tiring trend when remainers are sifting through every single issue they can think of to prove that their apocalyptic warnings have some (any) substance.

As the ONS report - which the Observer ‘story’ was ‘reporting’ on, in the loosest sense of the word- makes clear these reductions are temporary, were largely due to Covid and stockpiling the month before and that a similar process happened with imports from the EU which actually fell more sharply than export. Most significantly, the ONS report showed how things were returning to a normal state of affairs as the month went on.

The headline about the transition, if there is one, is how smoothly it actually went given Covid and the end of a trading relationship that had been in place for 50 years. As you rightly note given the clowns involved imagine the possibilities if we had anyone even half competent running the show...

In summary. I think most of flack remain is copping is due to the fundamental dishonesty of its arguments. Plenty of us would engage with any substance that the remain side might want to advance, but planet remain seems to have abandoned serious analysis, as anyone with serious politics on their side has accepted matters and moved on leaving only the true believer types.


----------



## Maggot (Mar 15, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Oh do fuck off!
> 
> Every one of those points has been done to fucking death.


No they haven't. Still waiting for you to list some advantages of Brexit, and name some post-Brexit trade deals which are an improvement on what we had before.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 15, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I don’t think the post is being dismissed because it’s in the Observer. I think it’s being dismissed because it’s a _complete_ non-story.
> 
> In that sense it’s part of a tiring trend when remainers are sifting through every single issue they can think of to prove that their apocalyptic warnings have some (any) substance.
> 
> ...



All of this is spot-on but you've fallen into the trap of discussing/explaining it AGAIN.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 15, 2021)

Maggot said:


> No they haven't. Still waiting for you to list some advantages of Brexit, and name some post-Brexit trade deals which are an improvement on what we had before.


quiet days which in years gone by would have seen just a handful of posts continue to benefit from brexit as the uk departure from the european union has proved a hardy perennial of discussion, debate and indeed insult.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 15, 2021)

Maggot said:


> No they haven't. Still waiting for you to list some advantages of Brexit, and name some post-Brexit trade deals which are an improvement on what we had before.


That's been done too by several posters. You just didn't like the responses you got so you pretended they didn't happen or that the benefits weren't benefits. Typical. 

You lot are rubbish.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 15, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> That's been done too by several posters. You just didn't like the responses you got so you pretended they didn't happen. Typical.
> 
> You lot are rubbish.


beer tastes better, the sound of leather on willow is crisper, cigarettes are sweeter and fewer children cry in the streets


----------



## brogdale (Mar 15, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> we're only eleven pages in


How come I'm hearing that in Karen Carpenter's (amazing) voice?


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 15, 2021)

brogdale said:


> How come I'm hearing that in Karen Carpenter's (amazing) voice?


we've only just begun


----------



## kebabking (Mar 15, 2021)

Maggot said:


> No they haven't. Still waiting for you to list some advantages of Brexit, and name some post-Brexit trade deals which are an improvement on what we had before.



Shall we go with the most basic one - that we're no longer of a supra-national state that has a judiciary, parliament, an executive, an economic policy, a currency, a foreign and defence policy and a diplomatic service, having voted to leave it?


----------



## brogdale (Mar 15, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> we've only just begun


"guilty pleasures" thread derail....


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 15, 2021)

kebabking said:


> Shall we go with the most basic one - that we're no longer of a supra-national state that has a judiciary, parliament, an executive, an economic policy, a currency, a foreign and defence policy and a diplomatic service, having voted to leave it?


well... we still have a supra-national state, only it's based in london with subordinate assemblies in belfast, cardiff and edinburgh. it's like playing pass the parcel, you remove one layer of supra-national state only to find another one within


----------



## two sheds (Mar 15, 2021)

Fifteen all


----------



## 2hats (Mar 15, 2021)

kebabking said:


> That's it, there's nothing wrong with the AZ, or any other vaccine


Likely not with the vaccine per se, but there could be an issue with one (or more) aspects of one (or more) of the production pipelines. Manufacture, filling and finish occurs in a number of locations across the UK, US, Europe and beyond. Components are sourced from multiple suppliers. So there is potential scope for variation. There could be an issue (perhaps intermittent) with one of the stages/components associated with such in one of those production lines and that needs to be chased up.


----------



## Maggot (Mar 15, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> That's been done too by several posters. You just didn't like the responses you got so you pretended they didn't happen or that the benefits weren't benefits. Typical.
> 
> You lot are rubbish.


Brilliant bit of re-writing history. A few benefits were listed and then you degenerated into the usual name calling and 'hilarious' memes.


----------



## Yossarian (Mar 15, 2021)

This Chinese state media editorial attacking Western regulators seems oddly familiar.



> It is the fundamental interests of all mankind to have more vaccines to fight COVID-19. However, some mainstream US and British media are taking the lead in putting geopolitical labels on vaccines. They are meddling in political stances with the scientific attitude toward vaccines, using their propaganda to promote Pfizer vaccines and smearing Chinese vaccines.





> Western media's crude double standards on vaccines and their unhealthy mindset show that the US and UK mainstream media's mentality toward China has gone highly geopolitical. Double standards have become political correctness for them. They are no longer objective in terms of competition with China. Attacking China is their desperate goal.







__





						Why were US media silent on Pfizer vaccine deaths?: Global Times editorial - Global Times
					






					www.globaltimes.cn


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 15, 2021)

Maggot said:


> A few benefits were listed ...



Gordon Bennett, make your mind up, man!

A minute ago you were 'still waiting for some benefits to be listed' and now "a few benefits _were _listed".

Didn't you like the ones that were listed or are you just confusing yourself again?

It looks like kebabking has taken pity on you and listed some more. Do they cut the mustard or should we hook your goalposts up to yet another tractor?


----------



## sleaterkinney (Mar 15, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> beer tastes better, the sound of leather on willow is crisper, cigarettes are sweeter and fewer children cry in the streets


And the fish are happier.


----------



## gosub (Mar 15, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Fewer than 40 people with blood clots after getting the jab out of 17,000,000 people, fuck knows what they’re playing at.


Which is statistically lower than average occurance .  Spiral of doom from EUrope


----------



## two sheds (Mar 15, 2021)

So it's a possible treatment to prevent  blood clots?


----------



## gosub (Mar 15, 2021)

two sheds said:


> So it's a possible treatment to prevent  blood clots?


Well as its more expensive and less effective than aspirin probably not


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 15, 2021)

France and Germany now banned it, making nine countries in Europe, even though the EU health bosses state it is totally safe, it is like some mass hysteria taking place, Italy has gone on to open a manslaughter investigation after a man who was vaccinated died, just utterly barking.


----------



## Maggot (Mar 15, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Gordon Bennett, make your mind up, man!
> 
> A minute ago you were 'still waiting for some benefits to be listed' and now "a few benefits _were _listed".
> 
> ...


No, I wanted YOU to list some. Instead of your usual piss poor attempts at trolling. 

You're like a bloke who's egging his mates on in a brawl, but too lightweight to get involved himself.


----------



## bimble (Mar 15, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> France and Germany now banned it, making nine countries in Europe, even though the EU health bosses state it is totally safe, it is like some mass hysteria taking place, Italy has gone on to open a manslaughter investigation after a man who was vaccinated died, just utterly barking.


This is mental and seriously bad news, it’s the only one that’s cheap & easy to store isn’t it so basically the best hope globally. If these actions are even a bit political it’s unforgivable, people are scared enough of vaccines anyway.


----------



## Yossarian (Mar 15, 2021)

bimble said:


> it’s the only one that’s cheap & easy to store isn’t it so basically the best hope globally.



The Johnson & Johnson vaccine approved by EU regulators Friday is a single-shot vaccine that's easy to store and cheap to manufacture, but not sure if it's cheaper than the AstraZeneca one. J&J say they'll be providing it on a non-profit basis for emergency use.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 15, 2021)

Maggot said:


> No, I wanted YOU to list some.


LOL! So you want me to list some that haven't already been listed. Is that it?

Spymaster's very own list of Brexit benefits that nobody else has thought of before, ever ever.  



> You're like a bloke who's egging his mates on in a brawl, but too lightweight to get involved himself.



Why keep a dog and bark yourself?


----------



## bimble (Mar 15, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> The Johnson & Johnson vaccine approved by EU regulators Friday is a single-shot vaccine that's easy to store and cheap to manufacture, but not sure if it's cheaper than the AstraZeneca one. J&J say they'll be providing it on a non-profit basis for emergency use.


 excellent. (I’ve tuned out completely from both covid & brexit didn’t think I’d miss any important good news but there you go.   
the damage is still done though isn’t it, to general trust in the vaccines.


----------



## kebabking (Mar 15, 2021)

bimble said:


> excellent. (I’ve tuned out completely from both covid & brexit didn’t think I’d miss any important good news but there you go.
> the damage is still done though isn’t it, to general trust in the vaccines.



Yup, this yes-no-yes-no stuff is doing catastrophic harm to people's willingness to have the vaccine - a friend of mine in Germany says there are vaccine centres running at 20% capacity with people just not turning up.

It's stupid, stupid, obscenely harmful fuckwittery.


----------



## bimble (Mar 15, 2021)

Amazing really, how this panic can spread 








						Which European states have paused AstraZeneca jabs due to clotting concerns?
					

Despite no evidence of a link between blood clots and the vaccine, a cautious approach is spreading




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 15, 2021)

bimble said:


> Amazing really, how this panic can spread
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It’s shocking and the seeds of mistrust can be traced right back to the EU’s attempt at arse covering. How many excess deaths this will cause will never be known, but it will be a lot. Makes me feel so sad and angry.


----------



## bimble (Mar 15, 2021)

Would the panic be happening if we hadn’t brexited ? Seems like maybe no.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 15, 2021)

bimble said:


> Would the panic be happening if we hadn’t brexited ? Seems like maybe no.



The what now?


----------



## bimble (Mar 15, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> The what now?


Would they all be freaking out about the AZ vaccine if it came from an Eu member country.


----------



## Supine (Mar 15, 2021)

bimble said:


> Would the panic be happening if we hadn’t brexited ? Seems like maybe no.



Pre and post Brexit all EU countries have their own regulators. Who have their own regulatory frameworks and philosophies for making decisions such as these.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 15, 2021)

bimble said:


> Would they all be freaking out about the AZ vaccine if it came from an Eu member country.



It does though, AZ is an Anglo-Swedish company.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Mar 15, 2021)

bimble said:


> Amazing really, how this panic can spread
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah, a couple of deaths and they lose their nerve. Are you surprised though - look at WW2!


----------



## Saul Goodman (Mar 15, 2021)

I've been thinking about this whole Brexit thing, and I've come to the conclusion that maybe it's time people stopped fucking moaning about it? It happened... deal with it. Whining isn't going to change anything, it's just going to make you look like a whining football fanatic, whose team lost an important game 10 years ago, and they're still fucking whining about it. Get over it, FFS, and if you can't live without the EU, move to somewhere that's still in the EU, but all this crying is embarrassing.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 15, 2021)

“We have decided to suspend the use of AstraZeneca as a precautionary measure and are hoping to resume it quickly if the EMA's advice allows it," French President Emmanuel Macron said at Monday news conference.


The EMA has said they should carry on with the rollout, yet France has just suspended it, so he’s yet again talking shit, all the while they are having to move ICU patients out of the Ille de France as Paris’ hospitals are packed to the gunwales with very sick Covid patients


----------



## two sheds (Mar 15, 2021)

Saul Goodman said:


> I've been thinking about this whole Brexit thing, and I've come to the conclusion that maybe it's time people stopped fucking moaning about it? It happened... deal with it. Whining isn't going to change anything, it's just going to make you look like a whining football fanatic, whose team lost an important game 10 years ago, and they're still fucking whining about it. Get over it, FFS, and if you can't live without the EU, move to somewhere that's still in the EU, but all this crying is embarrassing.


Same for the general election? The tories won so lets stop fucking moaning about it. Whining isn't going to change anything ....

I think it's perfectly acceptable to point out how grossly the tories have fucked Brexit up. That's what I think I've mainly been seeing.


----------



## Saul Goodman (Mar 15, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Same for the general election? The tories won so lets stop fucking moaning about it. Whining isn't going to change anything ....
> 
> I think it's perfectly acceptable to point out how grossly the tories have fucked Brexit up. That's what I think I've mainly been seeing.


I've always been a Labour supporter but Labour will probably never win another general election. They're so busy infighting, whining about Brexit and trying to outleft-wing each other, that they'll probably never again do anything of worth. The Tories might be useless cunts but at least they stick together.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 15, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Same for the general election?


No. You get a chance to change the result of a GE at least every 4 years. Your probably stuck with this for a generation or two. You don't have to like it but at least come up with something new or worthy of discussion rather than the hackneyed old dogshit that Maggot posted and a couple of other wallies got all jizzy about earlier.


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## sleaterkinney (Mar 15, 2021)

Norway, where these current doubts started isn’t in the EU..


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## 2hats (Mar 15, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> France and Germany now banned it


The issue in Germany is that they have apparently (so far) seen seven incidences of cerebral venous sinus thrombosis in ~1.6 million vaccinees. This is several times the general population background rate, hence the precautionary suspension.


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## littlebabyjesus (Mar 15, 2021)

two sheds said:


> I think it's perfectly acceptable to point out how grossly the tories have fucked Brexit up. That's what I think I've mainly been seeing.


It's not just acceptable. It's fucking necessary. Brexit wasn't some natural disaster. It's not Covid19. It's a choice. Doing it this way is a choice. They need to be held to account for every Brexit-related fuck-up and shit consequence.


----------



## kebabking (Mar 15, 2021)

2hats said:


> The issue in Germany is that they have apparently (so far) seen seven incidences of cerebral venous sinus thrombosis in ~1.6 million vaccinees. This is several times the general population background rate, hence the precautionary suspension.



Again, zero sum thinking - how many Covid serious hospitalisations/deaths do they think _haven't _happened because of those 1.6m vaccinations?

If they had a) a surfeit of other vaccines lying around to replace the AZ shot, and b) hadn't spent the last 2 months stoking the anti-vax Crowd, then this wouldn't be particularly problematic, but heh, guess what...


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 15, 2021)

sleaterkinney said:


> Norway, where these current doubts started isn’t in the EU..



Neither is Serbia or Iceland, which is why I have mentioned Europe rather than EU when referring to countries that have banned it. Norway and Iceland are in the EU’s vaccine programme though.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 15, 2021)

kebabking said:


> Again, zero sum thinking - how many Covid serious hospitalisations/deaths do they think _haven't _happened because of those 1.6m vaccinations?
> 
> If they had a) a surfeit of other vaccines lying around to replace the AZ shot, and b) hadn't spent the last 2 months stoking the anti-vax Crowd, then this wouldn't be particularly problematic, but heh, guess what...


It's a question of people having an informed choice, though, no? If you're given a vaccine, you should be told that there is a small elevated risk of blood clots before you're given it, if there is one, not find out after. This reinforces fears that the vaccines have been rushed. 

I generally agree, btw, that it's better to just keep jabbing with this level of evidence. I'm up for my jab soon and I'll take whichever one I'm offered. But I can also see the case for more caution. 

tbh one of the reasons I'm ok with the UK's more cavalier attitude is because they've fucked everything else up so badly. We might not feel such urgency if we weren't just coming out of a massive second wave and prolonged lockdown. News from Italy the other day reinforced that feeling. They were announcing a new lockdown, closing schools, restaurants and museums. My first reaction was 'blimey, restaurants and museums were open in Italy'.


----------



## krtek a houby (Mar 15, 2021)

Saul Goodman said:


> I've been thinking about this whole Brexit thing, and I've come to the conclusion that maybe it's time people stopped fucking moaning about it? It happened... deal with it. Whining isn't going to change anything, it's just going to make you look like a whining football fanatic, whose team lost an important game 10 years ago, and they're still fucking whining about it. Get over it, FFS, and if you can't live without the EU, move to somewhere that's still in the EU, but all this crying is embarrassing.



Exactly, if they don't like it, leave. 

They should be grateful, having defeated the tyranny of the EU, but no, the miserable self loathers are still pining for the banana straightening bureaucrats.


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## Saul Goodman (Mar 15, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> Exactly, if they don't like it, leave.
> 
> They should be grateful, having defeated the tyranny of the EU, but no, the miserable self loathers are still pining for the banana straightening bureaucrats.


No, if they don't like it, do something about it. If they're not prepared to do anything about it, then feel free to leave.
But doing something about anything doesn't seem to be within the realms of most people. They'd rather whine about it on internet forums.
Edit: I was dead against Brexit, but I decided to leave the UK before this shit hit the fan.


----------



## krtek a houby (Mar 15, 2021)

Saul Goodman said:


> No, if they don't like it, do something about it. If they're not prepared to do anything about it, then feel free to leave.
> But doing something about anything doesn't seem to be within the realms of most people. They'd rather whine about it on internet forums.
> Edit: I was dead against Brexit, but I decided to leave the UK before this shit hit the fan.



Mmm. Just dawned on me that it's probably a bit difficult to physically leave a lot of countries currently.

But yeah, in general, if people aren't happy with the country they live in, they should try and change it. 

Apart from calling for the results to be overturned. That never goes down well.

No to another referendum.

Apart from Scotland because they need to leave the tyranny of the UK.

As do the 6 Counties.


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## Dystopiary (Mar 16, 2021)

Difficult to leave the UK now without a fair bit of money - would've been much easier before/without Brexit. Just as things are getting worse here.


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## Saul Goodman (Mar 16, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> Mmm. Just dawned on me that it's probably a bit difficult to physically leave a lot of countries currently.
> 
> But yeah, in general, if people aren't happy with the country they live in, they should try and change it.
> 
> ...


I don't necessarily agree with the outcome of the Brexit vote but it happened. If you're (not you, anybody) now living in a state you don't wish to be in, either change it or leave the state. I do realise that moving between places isn't easy right now but it soon will be, and anybody who doesn't wish to live in a state that isn't governed by EU rules should leave. It's a shite state of affairs but it's what it is.


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## Saul Goodman (Mar 16, 2021)

Dystopiary said:


> Difficult to leave the UK now without a fair bit of money - would've been much easier before/without Brexit. Just as things are getting worse here.


Brexit didn't happen overnight.


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## Dystopiary (Mar 16, 2021)

Saul Goodman said:


> Brexit didn't happen overnight.


I know. And it's not totally straightforward. Still a bit of a bummer though!


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## krtek a houby (Mar 16, 2021)

Saul Goodman said:


> I don't necessarily agree with the outcome of the Brexit vote but it happened. If you're (not you, anybody) now living in a state you don't wish to be in, either change it or leave the state. I do realise that moving between places isn't easy right now but it soon will be, and anybody who doesn't wish to live in a state that isn't governed by EU rules should leave. It's a shite state of affairs but it's what it is.



Indeed. Guess at the same time, might be different for some to change their circumstances (say in a job where they're being exploited) because they are not sure of their status in the country. Like, some people might not have a voice or be fearful of speaking out.


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## Saul Goodman (Mar 16, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> Indeed. Guess at the same time, might be different for some to change their circumstances (say in a job where they're being exploited) because they are not sure of their status in the country. Like, some people might not have a voice or be fearful of speaking out.


Absolutely, but whining about the effects of Brexit, so long after it's happened, is of no use to anybody. Shit or get off the pot. There's no point complaining that you missed the bus. Either get the next one or don't.
Brexit is something that happened. I'm still buying stuff from people in the UK who dealt with it. Those who aren't dealing with it are the people who are facing problems. Granted, I'm now paying more for some of the things I buy, but it's a consequence of Brexit, and one I have to deal with, as does everyone involved.
It really is a shite state of affairs but it has happened and we have to deal with it as adults, and all the whining in the world won't change what's happened.


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## The39thStep (Mar 16, 2021)

Dystopiary said:


> Difficult to leave the UK now without a fair bit of money - would've been much easier before/without Brexit. Just as things are getting worse here.


You can leave the UK with whatever you have in your pocket after forking out for covid tests but you can only stay for the permitted period. After that you need a  residency then you have to have some proof of income, some states pitch it at the level of unemployment benefit and others higher. Portugal, where I am has always had a requirement for residency after the initial period expires. Tbh covid has had as big or even bigger impact, jobs are scarce especially with the collapse of the tourist industry and the restrictions on hospitality, and with wages, it's going to be a race to the bottom.


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## Saul Goodman (Mar 16, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> You can leave the UK with whatever you have in your pocket after forking out for covid tests but you can only stay for the permitted period. After that you need a  residency then you have to have some proof of income, some states pitch it at the level of unemployment benefit and others higher. Portugal, where I am has always had a requirement for residency after the initial period expires. Tbh covid has had as big or even bigger impact, jobs are scarce especially with the collapse of the tourist industry and the restrictions on hospitality, and with wages, it's going to be a race to the bottom.


Unfortunately, it's going to be a race to the bottom no matter where you reside. The simple fact is that this is a direct result of Covid. Unfortunately, some people would have you believe it's a result of Brexit.


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## AmateurAgitator (Mar 16, 2021)

Saul Goodman said:


> I've been thinking about this whole Brexit thing, and I've come to the conclusion that maybe it's time people stopped fucking moaning about it? It happened... deal with it. Whining isn't going to change anything, it's just going to make you look like a whining football fanatic, whose team lost an important game 10 years ago, and they're still fucking whining about it. Get over it, FFS, and if you can't live without the EU, move to somewhere that's still in the EU, but all this crying is embarrassing.


So people who have been negatively effected by brexit (such as losing their jobs) should just quit whining? By the same 'logic' people suffering from the effects of austerity should just 'quit whining' too and 'get over it'.

I guess we all need to just 'man up' and thicken our skin and everything will sort itself out.

Nice take.


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## AmateurAgitator (Mar 16, 2021)

Saul Goodman said:


> Get over it, FFS, and if you can't live without the EU, move to somewhere that's still in the EU, but all this crying is embarrassing.


Not everyone can just move to an EU country. Infact, if you've been fucked over by brexit or poverty (or both) I'd say your less likely to be able to.


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## Saul Goodman (Mar 16, 2021)

Count Cuckula said:


> So people who have been effected by brexit (such as losing their jobs) should just quit whining? By the same 'logic' people suffering from the effects of austerity should just 'quit whining' too and 'get over it'.
> 
> I guess we all need to just 'man up' and thicken our skin and everything will sort itself out.
> 
> Nice take.


Have you lost your job due to Brexit? If you have, you have my utmost sympathy, but that wasn't my point, as you're well aware, so please feel free to take your straw man elsewhere.


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## AmateurAgitator (Mar 16, 2021)

Saul Goodman said:


> Have you lost your job due to Brexit? If you have, you have my utmost sympathy, but that wasn't my point, as you're well aware, so please feel free to take your straw man elsewhere.


I don't work due to health problems. Which means I'm dependent on benefits, and therefore am a sitting duck for the coming round of austerity caused by brexit and the pandemic.

I don't expect you to give a shit though. It doesn't matter if I haven't lost a job due to brexit because other people have and apparently we should all just man-up and get over it.

Even if I had a job my life would no doubt be shit, and brexit would only make that situation worse.


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## Saul Goodman (Mar 16, 2021)

Count Cuckula said:


> I don't work due to health problems. Which means I'm dependent on benefits, and therefore am a sitting duck for the coming round of austerity caused by brexit and the pandemic.
> 
> I don't expect you to give a shit though


I give lots of shits. What would you like me to do about the situation? Do you think that whining about it will change anything?


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## AmateurAgitator (Mar 16, 2021)

Saul Goodman said:


> I give lots of shits.


Yeah sure ya do


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## Saul Goodman (Mar 16, 2021)

Count Cuckula said:


> I don't work due to health problems. Which means I'm dependent on benefits, and therefore am a sitting duck for the coming round of austerity caused by brexit and the pandemic.
> 
> I don't expect you to give a shit though. It doesn't matter if I haven't lost a job due to brexit because other people have and apparently we should all just man-up and get over it.
> 
> Even if I had a job my life would no doubt be shit, and brexit would only make that situation worse.


Sorry, I'm struggling to keep up with your edits... 
Have you or do you know of anyone who has lost their job as a direct result of Brexit?


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## Saul Goodman (Mar 16, 2021)

Count Cuckula said:


> Yeah sure ya do


I actually do. I give more of a shit than you could imagine. I feed homeless people. I do unpaid work for homeless people. I'm also about to be made homeless, but not because of Brexit, because of Covid. 
Please don't judge what you have no clue about.


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## Maggot (Mar 16, 2021)

Saul Goodman said:


> Sorry, I'm struggling to keep up with your edits...
> Have you or do you know of anyone who has lost their job as a direct result of Brexit?


dessiato has.


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## Maggot (Mar 16, 2021)

Saul Goodman said:


> No, if they don't like it, do something about it. If they're not prepared to do anything about it, then feel free to leave.
> But doing something about anything doesn't seem to be within the realms of most people. They'd rather whine about it on internet forums.
> Edit: I was dead against Brexit, but I decided to leave the UK before this shit hit the fan.


What sort of things should we do?


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## dessiato (Mar 16, 2021)

Maggot said:


> dessiato has.


I've also lost my freedom of movement to go anywhere in the EU to work, which was an essential part of my finding opportunities for jobs. 

My only hope to continue my lifestyle is to rescind my British citizenship and apply for Spanish, which is what I shall do next year when I am eligible.


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## kebabking (Mar 16, 2021)

Maggot said:


> What sort of things should we do?



Stop making yourself look like political dog vommit. Accept that it's happened, that it's not going to be reversed anytime soon. accept that not everyone thinks the same way you do in terms of cost/benefit, and that therefore they aren't going to be persuaded however much analysis you do on that basis. Stop walking around with a face like a slapped arse. 

Be honest about the aspects of the EU that you aren't so keen on, be honest about how likely they are to change.

Get rid of this 'is it worth it?' mindset. You may think that this or that customs fee, or whatever physical cost of brexit is a catastrophic event, but to someone who thinks of brexit in terms of their _identity, _you look like someone who completely missed the whole point of the thing.

Learn. Listen. Learn. Humble pie. Listen. Learn.


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## Aladdin (Mar 16, 2021)

Saul Goodman said:


> It really is a shite state of affairs but it has happened and we have to deal with it as adults, and all the whining in the world won't change what's happened.



"All the whining in the world" is what got the UK into this Brexit fuck up mess.


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## Spymaster (Mar 16, 2021)

dessiato said:


> I've also lost my freedom of movement to go anywhere in the EU to work, which was an essential part of my finding opportunities for jobs.
> 
> My only hope to continue my lifestyle is to rescind my British citizenship and apply for Spanish, which is what I shall do next year when I am eligible.


But you’ve lost your job in Spain as a result of Brexit?


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## Yossarian (Mar 16, 2021)

kebabking said:


> Stop making yourself look like political dog vommit. Accept that it's happened, that it's not going to be reversed anytime soon. accept that not everyone thinks the same way you do in terms of cost/benefit, and that therefore they aren't going to be persuaded however much analysis you do on that basis. Stop walking around with a face like a slapped arse.
> 
> Be honest about the aspects of the EU that you aren't so keen on, be honest about how likely they are to change.
> 
> ...



Choose your future. Choose life.


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## bimble (Mar 16, 2021)

what are we hoping to learn by listening to people who see brexit in terms of their _identity _? (Not meant to sound sarcastic or derisive though i know it does, not my intention, straight question).
i already know that lots of people in the UK hold all sorts of views and attitudes that are different to my own, why is this a particularly valuable learning opportunity more than every election and every poll that says we heart the monarchy or whatver?


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## Aladdin (Mar 16, 2021)

Saul Goodman said:


> I actually do. I give more of a shit than you could imagine. I feed homeless people. I do unpaid work for homeless people. I'm also about to be made homeless, but not because of Brexit, because of Covid.
> Please don't judge what you have no clue about.




Point is. Nobody is in full control of their life right now.
Brexit...Covid....whatever. 
It's easy to say get on with it and do something. In the past people left Ireland for work in their droves. Fully intending to return some day. Most of them never came back. 
They had no choice but to go. Luckily they did have places to go to...like the UK and the US. Nowadays they probably would not be welcome. 

Brexit has made movement more difficult for UK residents. That's definitely going to impact on people in the UK who want to move /live in another european country. The UK isnt exactly used to its citizens moving out of the UK to look for work. It's been the other way round...historically ..

Covid isnt going to go away any time soon either. The impact of covid has been massive. It's by no means over yet and I suspect wont be for another 2 to 3 years. 

It's all quite shit.


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## Spymaster (Mar 16, 2021)

bimble said:


> what are we hoping to learn by listening to people who see brexit in terms of their _identity _? (Not meant to sound sarcastic or derisive though i know it does, not my intention, straight question).


That not everyone sees things the same way. The majority of complaints on these threads have been about the extra costs involved in importing goods from the EU or the perceived difficulties in travelling or working there. Quite a few people see these as prices worth paying in return for no longer being part of an anti-democratic, heavily flawed system. Others also see it it in far longer terms than queues at borders 2 months after the hard leave.


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## bimble (Mar 16, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> That not everyone sees things the same way. The majority of complaints on these threads have been about the extra costs involved in importing goods from the EU or the perceived difficulties in travelling or working there. Quite a few people see these as prices worth paying in return for no longer being part of an anti-democratic, heavily flawed system. Others also see it it in far longer terms than queues at borders 2 months after the hard leave.


Not everyone sees things the same way? That is big news to me because every other thing about the UK, political and social, is a perfect mirror of my own concerns & priorities.


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## Spymaster (Mar 16, 2021)

bimble said:


> Not everyone sees things the same way? That is big news to me because every other thing about the UK, political and social, is a perfect mirror of my own concerns & priorities.


Well I guess you’re being sarcastic there but in doing so you’ve answered your previous question.


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## bimble (Mar 16, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Well I guess you’re being sarcastic there but in doing so you’ve answered your previous question.


How so? I asked what it is I'm supposed to learn from listening to the people who voted brexit because of their sense of _identity. _Is it learn from them or about them idk. I'm happy to learn more about the country i'm in, what motivates my neighbours etc, but i'm not going to develop the same feelings i dont think ever, just by accident of birth maybe.


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## Poi E (Mar 16, 2021)

Perpetual Brexit-the revolution must be sustained. Foreigners, the disabled, BLM, ungrateful Europe, save the statues, screw the travellers. Rinse and fucking repeat.


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## TopCat (Mar 16, 2021)

Poi E said:


> Perpetual Brexit-the revolution must be sustained. Foreigners, the disabled, BLM, ungrateful Europe, save the statues, screw the travellers. Rinse and fucking repeat.


Are people who voted leave supposed to support this shitty list?


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 16, 2021)

bimble said:


> How so? I asked what it is I'm supposed to learn from listening to the people who voted brexit because of their sense of _identity. _Is it learn from them or about them idk. I'm happy to learn more about the country i'm in, what motivates my neighbours etc, but i'm not going to develop the same feelings i dont think ever, just by accident of birth maybe.


Ah, you edited your post.

Nobody is asking you to develop the same feelings. Kebabking’s post was directed at people like Maggot and others who continuously insist that others ‘show them the benefits of leaving’ before dismissing them as non-benefits.


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## brogdale (Mar 16, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Are people who voted leave supposed to support this shitty list?


Many of them voted for it on 12 December 2019.


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## TopCat (Mar 16, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Many of them voted for it on 12 December 2019.


And many didn’t.


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## brogdale (Mar 16, 2021)

TopCat said:


> And many didn’t.


74% did



3/4 of 'Leave' voters supported the Tories in 2019.


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## Poi E (Mar 16, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Are people who voted leave supposed to support this shitty list?



 It doesn't matter.


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## bimble (Mar 16, 2021)

anyhow, i'm happier when i stick to the gardening thread. Do wonder if at this point a lot of this is a personality thing, i was well pissed off that night 5 years ago (as was everyone in my 98% remain area local pub) but really don't feel anything about it now, apart from i hope things turn out mostly ok. Can't sustain pissed-offness for any length of time, must be exhausting, but also my home & job are fine and i have a collection of passports so i'm alright jack plays a part for sure.


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## Poi E (Mar 16, 2021)

Thinks aren't, and will not, turn out "OK", but then blow back from being a state of thieves and thugs for hundreds of years is never going to be pretty.


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## Smokeandsteam (Mar 16, 2021)

brogdale said:


> 3/4 of 'Leave' voters supported the Tories in 2019.



Can you offer up any clues as to why leave voters might have voted for the only party that supported leave rather than one of the parties committed to either remain or a re-run?

A difficult question I know...


----------



## Poi E (Mar 16, 2021)

Will of the people.


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## Smokeandsteam (Mar 16, 2021)

Poi E said:


> Perpetual Brexit-the revolution must be sustained. Foreigners, the disabled, BLM, ungrateful Europe, save the statues, screw the travellers. Rinse and fucking repeat.



I can’t speak for others but not one person I know voted leave for _any _of those reasons. They seem to be the issues that preoccupy you.

The economy, jobs, wages, deindustrialisation and ‘if the elite say vote remain then we are voting leave’ were actual motivating factors. I’d add race as a factor although that really wasn’t an issue here.


----------



## Supine (Mar 16, 2021)

brogdale said:


> 74% did
> 
> View attachment 258895
> 
> 3/4 of 'Leave' voters supported the Tories in 2019.



On a lighter note, it still tickles me that someone in the Brexit party voted remain


----------



## Poi E (Mar 16, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I can’t speak for others but not one person I know voted leave for _any _of those reasons. They seem to be the issues that preoccupy you.
> 
> The economy, jobs, wages, deindustrialisation and ‘if the elite say vote remain then we are voting leave’ were actual motivating factors. I’d add race as a factor although that really wasn’t an issue here.



Good for you. Road to hell paved with good intentions, eh?


----------



## brogdale (Mar 16, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Can you offer up any clues as to why leave voters might have voted for the only party that supported leave rather than one of the parties committed to either remain or a re-run?
> 
> A difficult question I know...


Yup, struggling.

But, the graphic was a response to TopCat 's question of whether it was Leave voters who supported the Tories' targets in their perpetual culture wars?

Looking back it's apparent that 74% of Leave voters did, consciously or unconsciously, vote for the party whose manifesto contained much of the shitty list above.


----------



## Poi E (Mar 16, 2021)

The "Irish Option" as the rooinekke press puts it









						‘Strong deterrent’: Travellers face £2,5k fines if they refuse to move on under new laws
					

TRAVELLERS will be booted off land almost immediately and could face fines of up to £2,500 in new laws.




					www.echo-news.co.uk


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 16, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Yup, struggling.
> 
> But, the graphic was a response to TopCat 's question of whether it was Leave voters who supported the Tories' targets in their perpetual culture wars?
> 
> ...




What could have happened if Labour and the Lib Dems had said, "The vote has happened, it was close but leave won, let's enact that." Rather than the shrill handwringing which just gifted a massive majority to Johnson in spite of that shitty manifesto?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 16, 2021)

Poi E said:


> The "Irish Option" as the rooinekke press puts it
> 
> 
> 
> ...




It's a despicable, racist law which will be abused to fuck. Should not be copying laws from EU countries.


----------



## Poi E (Mar 16, 2021)

Perfect law for a country of flag shagging wankers.


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## brogdale (Mar 16, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> What could have happened if Labour and the Lib Dems had said, "The vote has happened, it was close but leave won, let's enact that." Rather than the shrill handwringing which just gifted a massive majority to Johnson in spite of that shitty manifesto?


'What ifs' are always interesting to contemplate, but I feel more comfortable staying with the actuality that 74% of Leave voters decided, in December 2019, to prioritise their desire to exit the supra state over and above the (shitty) content of the manifesto commitments their vote realised.
e2a: or, indeed, a proportion of them may well have felt completely comfortable with the tory culture war agenda anyway?


----------



## andysays (Mar 16, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> It's not just acceptable. It's fucking necessary. Brexit wasn't some natural disaster. It's not Covid19. It's a choice. Doing it this way is a choice. They need to be held to account for every Brexit-related fuck-up and shit consequence.


While this is certainly true, there appears to be an attitude among some Remain supporters here and elsewhere (and I call them that because that is clearly how they still see themselves) that every Brexit-related government fuck up demonstrates the stupidity of Brexit and all those who voted for it, rather than the stupidity of the government's implementation of it.

And that attitude is actually an obstacle when it comes to holding the government to account, because it continues to see people in terms of Leave and Remain supporters, rather than people who have been affected by the government's many Brexit fuck ups.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 16, 2021)

Poi E said:


> Perfect law for a country of flag shagging wankers.



Bit harsh on the Irish, but whatever floats yer boat.


----------



## TopCat (Mar 16, 2021)

Poi E said:


> Perfect law for a country of flag shagging wankers.


Is this you reaching out?


----------



## brogdale (Mar 16, 2021)

andysays said:


> And that attitude is actually an obstacle when it comes to holding the government to account, because it continues to see people in terms of Leave and Remain supporters, rather than people who have been affected by the government's many Brexit fuck ups.


A good point, but a somewhat inevitable outcome from such a 'single-issue' GE that saw 3/4 of the Leave vote contribute to the Tory landslide victory. December 2019 has fixed that L/R dynamic until at least 2024.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Mar 16, 2021)

Poi E said:


> Perfect law for a country of flag shagging wankers.



Writes off 80 million people.....


----------



## kebabking (Mar 16, 2021)

brogdale said:


> A good point, but a somewhat inevitable outcome from such a 'single-issue' GE that saw 3/4 of the Leave vote contribute to the Tory landslide victory. December 2019 has fixed that L/R dynamic until at least 2024.



I'd certainly agree that there would inevitably be _some _spill-over, but do you think the sneering _et al _has had no impact on it's depth/persistence?


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## kebabking (Mar 16, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Writes off 80 million people.....



Politically unsuccessful you say?


----------



## brogdale (Mar 16, 2021)

kebabking said:


> I'd certainly agree that there would inevitably be _some _spill-over, but do you think the sneering _et al _has had no impact on it's depth/persistence?


Absolutely it does, but to cast the Waitrosers as the main driving force behind the persistence of this divide clearly overlooks the tory electoral agenda to maintain it.


----------



## bimble (Mar 16, 2021)

Poi E said:


> Thinks aren't, and will not, turn out "OK", but then blow back from being a state of thieves and thugs for hundreds of years is never going to be pretty.


My idea of things turning out ok includes that, i think. Not talking about things being pretty or easier, I mean in a long term probably generational timescale I reckon maybe brexit will help with the long overdue digestion of the loss of empire etc.


----------



## kebabking (Mar 16, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Absolutely it does, but to cast the Waitrosers as the main driving force behind the persistence of this divide clearly overlooks the tory electoral agenda to maintain it.



While I would absolutely agree that the R/L divide suits the Tories, I also think it's true that post-16 Remain gifted them this huge, open goal.


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 16, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Yup, struggling.
> 
> But, the graphic was a response to TopCat 's question of whether it was Leave voters who supported the Tories' targets in their perpetual culture wars?
> 
> ...



I very much doubt whether tackling unauthorised traveller sites was a key motivating issue, consciously or unconsciously in that election tbh . However what undoubtedly was the attempts to stop Parliament from carrying out the referendum decision and the bizarre second referendum campaign by the LabDem opposition.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 16, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> I very much doubt whether tackling unauthorised traveller sites was a key motivating issue, consciously or unconsciously in that election tbh . However what undoubtedly was the attempts to stop Parliament from carrying out the referendum decision and the bizarre second referendum campaign by the LabDem opposition.




'People's Vote'


----------



## killer b (Mar 16, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Many of them voted for it on 12 December 2019.


The Tory manifesto in 2019 was a big sign saying 'GET BREXIT DONE', that's what people voted for not ' Foreigners, the disabled, BLM, ungrateful Europe, save the statues, screw the travellers.'


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Mar 16, 2021)

kebabking said:


> Politically unsuccessful you say?



Hard to see the constituency the approach is likely to appeal to: ‘You are all flag shagging wankers, now give my politics a hearing’


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 16, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Hard to see the constituency the approach is likely to appeal to: ‘You are all flag shagging wankers, now give my politics a hearing’



Not important when the principle is not to build or make any political headway within the working class but simply to pose as being somehow 'on the left'


----------



## brogdale (Mar 16, 2021)

killer b said:


> The Tory manifesto in 2019 was a big sign saying 'GET BREXIT DONE', that's what people voted for not ' Foreigners, the disabled, BLM, ungrateful Europe, save the statues, screw the travellers.'


It was and that's certainly what post-polling found. 
But it's also true that voting Tory ensured that the party's wider agenda was realised.


----------



## killer b (Mar 16, 2021)

brogdale said:


> It was and that's certainly what post-polling found.
> But it's also true that voting Tory ensured that the party's wider agenda was realised.


Sure. But they didn't all explicitly vote for the wider agenda, they just put a cross in the 'brexit' box. Lots of the same people voted for the most radical Labour Party manifesto in decades two years before.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Mar 16, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Not important when the principle is not to build or make any political headway within the working class but simply to pose as being somehow 'on the left'



This is a significant point. I’ve always taken as a given that the starting place is a necessity to get a hearing for your politics in the community, workplace, ale house or wherever you are. To take people as they are and start from there. To establish the fact that you are on the same side.

It seems others on this thread don’t attach much or any importance to this. The problem with that approach is that those dismissed (in this case the entire country) are likely to return the sentiment with interest in my experience.


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 16, 2021)

brogdale said:


> It was and that's certainly what post-polling found.
> But it's also true that voting Tory ensured that the party's wider agenda was realised.


Its a bit like saying that those who voted for the Labour manifesto in 1997 , which included 


> In industrial relations, we make it clear that there will be no return to flying pickets, secondary action, strikes with no ballots or the trade union law of the 1970s. There will instead be basic minimum rights for the individual at the workplace, where our aim is partnership not conflict between employers and employees.


are somehow complicit in deindustrialisation, the decline of trade unions and bargaining rights and the ushering of the low wage economy and only have themselves to blame, rather as their vote being seen as getting the Tories out.


----------



## two sheds (Mar 16, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> This is a significant point. I’ve always taken as a given that the starting place is a necessity to get a hearing for your politics in the community, workplace, ale house or wherever you are. To take people as they are and start from there. To establish the fact that you are on the same side.



I agree with that. It is largely why I don't like the sneering at _people_ being 'liberals' or 'progressives'. Liberal establishment fair enough it's a good description, but calling people liberals as an insult just seems divisive, particularly when it seems to be applied to anyone who doesn't have revolutionary politics. 

Or people who would indeed like to see a revolution (depending of course on who takes over   ) as better than what we have now, but in the meantime believes in engaging with the admittedly laughable democratic process. I think the left needs to be more inclusive - it's the only way I see any progress against the far right.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Mar 16, 2021)

two sheds said:


> I agree with that. It is largely why I don't like the sneering at _people_ being 'liberals' or 'progressives'. Liberal establishment fair enough it's a good description, but calling people liberals as an insult just seems divisive, particularly when it seems to be applied to anyone who doesn't have revolutionary politics.
> 
> Or people who would indeed like to see a revolution (depending of course on who takes over   ) as better than what we have now, but in the meantime believes in engaging with the admittedly laughable democratic process. I think the left needs to be more inclusive - it's the only way I see any progress against the far right.



I’ve got two problems with what you’ve said here:

1. I think the current situation can be briefly summarised thus: a concerted attempt is being waged by elite liberalism to reassert itself (against right “populists”) and in doing so to re-establish its moral authority to lead and to re-embed third way style neo-liberalism or the technocratic management of late capitalism by the PMC. At the same time a ‘culture war’ is being waged between two sides both committed to neo-liberalism but who want to establish their leadership of it. The old elite v the new elite. Old money v transatlantic celebrity/big tech/‘woke PLC’ etc

My view is that sections of the left - whom I characterise as liberals - have collapsed into participating in this and choosing sides. This speaks to the class composition of much of the left but also a profound disorientation that manifests itself in myriad ways

Conversely, I don’t believe that my class has a dog in the fight and needs to re-remember that our interests are best served by challenging both sides and building our own politics, demands for economic democracy and forms of representation and then fighting for them.

2. You are right that the cleavage between the working class and liberalism is growing and has deepened. But you need to look historically about how that situation has come about. It’s was elite liberals who wrote the working class off. Not the other around. It was they who privileged other movements and ideas. It was they who wanted to detach the moorings and go it alone. And, unlike their opponents who think it but are better at not saying it, they are also responsible for some of the most grotesque stereotyping and demonisation of the abandoned communities that their technocratic accommodation with capital has produced.

My conclusion is that you are likely to be disappointed - not because of the reasons you fear - but because liberalism thinks the working class is defeated/reactionary/a basket of deplorables/stupid/white/all of the above and no longer values the uneasy alliance that briefly emerged in the 1950’s.


----------



## two sheds (Mar 16, 2021)

Fair points - I shall go off and think about them


----------



## gosub (Mar 16, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Its a bit like saying that those who voted for the Labour manifesto in 1997 , which included
> 
> are somehow complicit in deindustrialisation, the decline of trade unions and bargaining rights and the ushering of the low wage economy and only have themselves to blame, rather as their vote being seen as getting the Tories out.


Ah but if you were still voting New Labour  by 2001 then it wasn't tory policy you had a problem with, just people who called themselves tory


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 16, 2021)

gosub said:


> Ah but if you were still voting New Labour  by 2001 then it wasn't tory policy you had a problem with, just people who called themselves tory


Yeh after operation desert fox and the precipitation of massacres in Kosovo, after the terrorism act 2000, after the introduction of tuition fees...


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## The39thStep (Mar 16, 2021)

gosub said:


> Ah but if you were still voting New Labour  by 2001 then it wasn't tory policy you had a problem with, just people who called themselves tory


Reluctantly, and after years of not voting for Labour , I did vote that year for New  Labour. Aside from wanting to get the Tories out I also wanted to prove to my friends who voted New Labour , with whom I spent the election night with in the Manchester Press Club,  that getting the Tories out was only the first battle and that there would be others to fight against the very people we’d voted for . I never voted again for Labour until Corbyn who I had known for years and to be honest thought he meant well but was weak and tied up in the ‘isms ‘ of the 1980s.


----------



## gosub (Mar 16, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Yeh after operation desert fox and the precipitation of massacres in Kosovo, after the terrorism act 2000, after the introduction of tuition fees...



Ah yes, New Labour's triple priorty pledge of education, education, education.



Was an intersting column by William Hague last week  Like the Tories in 1997, Labour is in a far worse position than it realises (telegraph.co.uk) where he seems to think the problem was and is tanks on lawns....Its a factor but, UK politics produces more consensus against rather than for. Any party, over time burns through its 'talent' and its goodwill


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 16, 2021)

gosub said:


> Ah yes, New Labour's triple priorty pledge of education, education, education.
> 
> 
> 
> Was an intersting column by William Hague last week  Like the Tories in 1997, Labour is in a far worse position than it realises (telegraph.co.uk) where he seems to think the problem was and is tanks on lawns....Its a factor but, UK politics produces more consensus against rather than for. Any party, over time burns through its 'talent' and its goodwill


i would be glad to light the fire if i thought you were speaking other than metaphorically


----------



## Dystopiary (Mar 16, 2021)

Count Cuckula said:


> Not everyone can just move to an EU country. Infact, if you've been fucked over by brexit or poverty (or both) I'd say your less likely to be able to.


Absolutely.


----------



## gosub (Mar 16, 2021)

If Theresa May or Anna Soubry want to spend their sunset years dancing on Ibiza, I'm sure they'll find a way


----------



## sleaterkinney (Mar 16, 2021)

Saul Goodman said:


> Absolutely, but whining about the effects of Brexit, so long after it's happened, is of no use to anybody. Shit or get off the pot. There's no point complaining that you missed the bus. Either get the next one or don't.


The end of the transition period itself only happened a few months ago and already the UK is trying to rewrite what it signed up to, and the effects are still happening. Of course it should be talked about.


----------



## andysays (Mar 16, 2021)

brogdale said:


> A good point, but a somewhat inevitable outcome from such a 'single-issue' GE that saw 3/4 of the Leave vote contribute to the Tory landslide victory. December 2019 has fixed that L/R dynamic until at least 2024.


That still gives 1/4 of the Leave vote which didn't contribute to the Tory victory (and an unknown % of the Remain vote which did).


brogdale said:


> Absolutely it does, but to cast the Waitrosers as the main driving force behind the persistence of this divide clearly overlooks the tory electoral agenda to maintain it.


And of course it's in the Tories' interests to maintain the division on those terms, but that doesn't excuse anyone (however they voted in 2016) who claims to be anti-Tory for continuing to perpetuate it five years later.

December 2019 has only fixed that Leave/Remain dynamic if we accept that it's fixed, and if our arguments and actions continue to fix it.


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 16, 2021)




----------



## butcher (Mar 16, 2021)

Sugar Kane said:


> It's easy to say get on with it and do something. In the past people left Ireland for work in their droves. Fully intending to return some day. Most of them never came back.
> They had no choice but to go. Luckily they did have places to go to...like the UK and the US. Nowadays they probably would not be welcome.



And Australia, luckily it all turned out well in those Countries.......apart for those people who already lived there. No story is as simple as it seems.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 16, 2021)

Sugar Kane said:


> Point is. Nobody is in full control of their life right now.


no one is in full control of their lives at other times either.


----------



## Aladdin (Mar 16, 2021)

butcher said:


> And Australia, luckily it all turned out well in those Countries.......apart for those people who already lived there. No story is as simple as it seems.



Many Irish people ended up in Australia not by choice but because they were sent there..


----------



## redsquirrel (Mar 16, 2021)

brogdale said:


> It was and that's certainly what post-polling found.
> But it's also true that voting Tory ensured that the party's wider agenda was realised.


As The39thStep said how far (back) are you taking this logic? Did all those that voted Labour in 2005 endorse the Iraq war? All three major UK parties stood on a policy of austerity in 2010 and 2015, so did a majority of the UK electorate ensure the austerity agenda was realised? People vote for parties for all kinds of reasons. Moreover, making voting a (the key) political action ignores all the real politics that is involved in people's day to day lives.


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## Aladdin (Mar 16, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> no one is in full control of their lives at other times either.



Probably true. But at least we had an idea of how fucked things might get.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 16, 2021)

Sugar Kane said:


> Probably true. But at least we had an idea of how fucked things might get.


oh we have no idea of how fucked things may get


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## Aladdin (Mar 16, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> oh we have no idea of how fucked things may get



Yes....whereas before we had some idea. 




🤔😳


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 16, 2021)

andysays said:


> That still gives 1/4 of the Leave vote which didn't contribute to the Tory victory (and an unknown % of the Remain vote which did).



Yep, my constituency voted 59.25% remain yet its Tory MP was re-elected with 53.3% of the vote in 2019.


----------



## butcher (Mar 16, 2021)

Sugar Kane said:


> Many Irish people ended up in Australia not by choice but because they were sent there..



I totally agree. Many Scots-Irish, English and other nationalities too.

However, once there (in conjunction with the other non-native peoples) they would have been as culpable for the appalling treatment of aboriginal peoples as any other nationality.  

This is way off topic though, and the point I was attempting was to say that no nation can have a totally clear conscience for some events during that period of history.


----------



## Aladdin (Mar 16, 2021)

butcher said:


> I totally agree. Many Scots-Irish, English and other nationalities too.
> 
> However, once there (in conjunction with the other non-native peoples) they would have been as culpable for the appalling treatment of aboriginal peoples as any other nationality.
> 
> This is way off topic though, and the point I was attempting was to say that no nation can have a totally clear conscience for some events during that period of history.



I agree with you.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 16, 2021)

Sugar Kane said:


> Yes....whereas before we had some idea.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Now there are no limits


----------



## gosub (Mar 16, 2021)

Sugar Kane said:


> Many Irish people ended up in Australia not by choice but because they were sent there..



Potato Famine  and highland clearances was same time as the Aussie gold rush


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## Pickman's model (Mar 16, 2021)

gosub said:


> Potato Famine  and highland clearances was same time as the Aussie gold rush


Highland clearances started long before the famine, round 1750


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## Aladdin (Mar 16, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Highland clearances started long before the famine, round 1750



The *Irish Famine* of 1740–1741 (*Irish*: Bliain an Áir, meaning the Year of Slaughter) in the Kingdom of *Ireland*, is estimated to have killed between 13% and 20% of the 1740 population of 2.4 million people, which was a proportionately greater loss than during the Great Famine 100 years later.


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## gosub (Mar 16, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Highland clearances started long before the famine, round 1750


But according to wikipedia didn't stop til 10years after the Aussie gold rush.....Canada is where a lot of them ended up before then


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## Pickman's model (Mar 16, 2021)

Sugar Kane said:


> The *Irish Famine* of 1740–1741 (*Irish*: Bliain an Áir, meaning the Year of Slaughter) in the Kingdom of *Ireland*, is estimated to have killed between 13% and 20% of the 1740 population of 2.4 million people, which was a proportionately greater loss than during the Great Famine 100 years later.


Never heard of that before


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 16, 2021)

gosub said:


> But according to wikipedia didn't stop til 10years after the Aussie gold rush.....Canada is where a lot of them ended up before then


Yes, a great Scottish presence in canada


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## gosub (Mar 16, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Yes, a great Scottish presence in canada



Hudson Bay Company particularly valued the teuchters for some reason


----------



## Aladdin (Mar 16, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Never heard of that before



It had a lot to do with extremely cold weather followed by flooding.  So food was very scarce.


----------



## Saul Goodman (Mar 16, 2021)

sleaterkinney said:


> The end of the transition period itself only happened a few months ago and already the UK is trying to rewrite what it signed up to, and the effects are still happening. Of course it should be talked about.


I don't think I mentioned not talking about it. I was talking about all the whining, and more specifically, people blaming leave voters for every fuck-up the government has ever made.


----------



## brogdale (Mar 16, 2021)

redsquirrel said:


> As The39thStep said how far (back) are you taking this logic? Did all those that voted Labour in 2005 endorse the Iraq war? All three major UK parties stood on a policy of austerity in 2010 and 2015, so did a majority of the UK electorate ensure the austerity agenda was realised? People vote for parties for all kinds of reasons. Moreover, making voting a (the key) political action ignores all the real politics that is involved in people's day to day lives.


When I mentioned the 74% of Leave voters that went on to vote Tory in December 2019 in reply to TopCat earlier to day, I didn't actually speculate about their motivation, endorsement of policy or any reasons for their decision, merely that they had. In doing so, either wittingly or unwittingly, their collective choice did ensure that the Tories are in a position to effect their manifesto commitments.

Given that 58% of 2015 Tory voters went on to vote Leave the next year, there must be many who wittingly did endorse much of what the Tory manifesto promised.


----------



## redsquirrel (Mar 16, 2021)

brogdale said:


> When I mentioned the 74% of Leave voters that went on to vote Tory in December 2019 in reply to TopCat earlier to day, I didn't actually speculate about their motivation, endorsement of policy or any reasons for their decision, merely that they had. In doing so, either wittingly or unwittingly, their collective choice did ensure that the Tories are in a position to effect their manifesto commitments.


So in your view in 2010 an absolute majority  of the electorate made the collective choice (and 49.9% in 2015) for the implementation of austerity? Or in 1997 Labour voters must have been ensuring the wider agenda of the Blair government was realised.


----------



## brogdale (Mar 16, 2021)

redsquirrel said:


> So in your view in 2010 an absolute majority  of the electorate made the collective choice (and 49.9% in 2015) for the implementation of austerity? Or in 1997 Labour voters must have been ensuring the wider agenda of the Blair government was realised.


Kind of what happens when you vote for parties that secure a majority?


----------



## stethoscope (Mar 16, 2021)

...


----------



## redsquirrel (Mar 16, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Kind of what happens when you vote for parties that secure a majority?


Not in my view. For me voting (in a local/general election) is an almost apolitical act. The collective responsibility lies with the council/government and (to a lesser extent) the party members. Doing otherwise minimises the alignment of the political interests (rather than the views) of the working class


----------



## gosub (Mar 16, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Kind of what happens when you vote for parties that secure a majority?



But we don't.
Yeah there are bunch of interested parties, and a bunch of fanbois for whom political parties  are their Premiership football club type thing. But people, I think, don't vote for parties they vote against them.


----------



## Ax^ (Mar 16, 2021)

Can we blame brexiters for this new bill going thru its second reading

fuck it i will anyways

and anyone who voted for the fucking tories


----------



## brogdale (Mar 16, 2021)

gosub said:


> But we don't.
> Yeah there are bunch of interested parties, and a bunch of fanbois for whom political parties  are their Premiership football club type thing. But people, I think, don't vote for parties they vote against them.


I think the drift of some of the discussion in here today is very much that 2019 represented an example of where many folk were voting _for _a party, for one key reason.


----------



## brogdale (Mar 16, 2021)

redsquirrel said:


> Not in my view. For me voting (in a local/general election) is an almost apolitical act. The collective responsibility lies with the council/government and (to a lesser extent) the party members. Doing otherwise minimises the alignment of the political interests (rather than the views) of the working class


I'll be honest squirrel...(I've had a few beers, so maybe that's it?)...but I really don't get what you're getting at there!


----------



## gosub (Mar 16, 2021)

brogdale said:


> I think the drift of some of the discussion in here today is very much that 2019 represented an example of where many folk were voting _for _a party, for one key reason.



'Get Brexit done!' wasn't an endorsement  of the absolute dogs dinner the Tories had made of it, it was a non endorsement of the counter idea : what this really needs now is another referendum'


----------



## brogdale (Mar 16, 2021)

gosub said:


> 'Get Brexit done!' wasn't an endorsement  of the absolute dogs dinner the Tories had made of it, it was a non endorsement of the counter idea : what this really needs now is another referendum'


That seems a little over-worked to me. I suspect many of the 74% Leave voters who voted Tory in 2019 to 'Get Brexit Done' did so for just that.


----------



## gosub (Mar 16, 2021)

The precautionary principle is literally killing Europe (telegraph.co.uk) 

I looked the John Hopkins graphs they look pretty much like they did this time last year (not here but EU) France is now estimating in won't get 75% vaccinated til end of September., which means they won't actually get the 75% at all - not without binning the order for half the country and getting a different one.  And you need to get 70-75 to have either had it or be vaccinated against it to start thinking in terms of herd immunity.  Imagine being a year into this without being able to see (touch wood) the end of the tunnel


----------



## sleaterkinney (Mar 16, 2021)

Saul Goodman said:


> I don't think I mentioned not talking about it. I was talking about all the whining, and more specifically, people blaming leave voters for every fuck-up the government has ever made.


It’s not just the fuck-ups though, it’s the direction full stop and this is the actual leave campaign in government. This is what was enabled.


----------



## krtek a houby (Mar 16, 2021)

Sugar Kane said:


> Many Irish people ended up in Australia not by choice but because they were sent there..



British "justice" never looked upon the Irish favourably.

Anyway. The most important thing to come out of the Brexit era will be a 32 county Republic.


----------



## Maggot (Mar 17, 2021)

kebabking said:


> Stop making yourself look like political dog vommit. Accept that it's happened, that it's not going to be reversed anytime soon. accept that not everyone thinks the same way you do in terms of cost/benefit, and that therefore they aren't going to be persuaded however much analysis you do on that basis. Stop walking around with a face like a slapped arse.
> 
> Be honest about the aspects of the EU that you aren't so keen on, be honest about how likely they are to change.
> 
> ...


It's not just cost/benefit. It's losing the freedom to live and work in 27 other countries. It's jobs. It's breaking the Good Friday Agreement. It's Erasmus. It's staff shortages in the NHS. 

Be honest about the downsides of Brexit.

You are hardly gonna change my mind by using insults like political dogs vomit, and face like a slapped arse.


----------



## redsquirrel (Mar 17, 2021)

brogdale said:


> I'll be honest squirrel...(I've had a few beers, so maybe that's it?)...but I really don't get what you're getting at there!


OK let me come at it from a different angle. 
I was browsing the twitter feed of a former urban75 poster the other day and saw this quote. It is from _The Politics of Everybody_ by Holly Lewis, I've no idea what the book as a whole is like but this fragment is on target.


> Labor is not the focal point of Marxist politics because Marx felt more outrage over the fate of working folks then other groups of disenfranchised people, nor in Marxism a moral argument that proletarians are a honourable and valiant people, superior to the middle and upper classes. The proletarian is the pivotal political subject because productive labor is the strategic point from which capitalism is dismantled
> ....
> Workers, the unemployed, their dependants, and allies routinely find creative ways to collude against capital


Ellen Meiksins Wood makes the same point in her brilliant _The Retreat from Class: A New "True" Socialism_ 


> This is not to say that the condition of the working class directly determines that its members will have socialism as their immediate class objective. It does, however, mean that they can uniquely advance the cause of socialism (though not completely achieve it) even without conceiving socialism as their class objective, by pursuing their material class interests, because these interests are by nature essentially opposed to capitalist class exploitation and to a class-dominated organization of production.
> ....
> Furthermore, since the working class itself creates capital, and since the organization of production and appropriation places the collective labourer at the heart of the whole capitalist structure, the working class has a unique capacity to destroy capital.





> Class struggle is the nucleus of Marxism. This is so in two inseparable senses: it is class struggle that for Marxism explains the dynamic of history, and it is the abolition of classes, the obverse or end-product of class struggle, that is the ultimate objective of the revolutionary process. The particular importance for Marxism of the working class in capitalist society is that this is the only class whose own class interests require, and whose own conditions make possible, the abolition of class itself.



It is the interests of the workers that class politics must be built on not their political views (of which voting is generally a pretty poor guide anyway). From the OP the whole tenor of this thread (and plenty of other ones) is that voters are responsible for policies that governments enact (I know that you did not go that far but other posters have).* And that path leads to the opposite direction to class politics, it seeks to create a coalition based not on material interests but on political views - being a Labour voter, being anti-Tory, being on the left. But someone does not leave the working class just because they have voted Tory, employers do not resolve the conflict of their interests with their employees because they vote Labour. For a politics that does not place class struggle at the heart of their politics there is a certain (limited) rational in assigning blame to voters, the conflict is between the left and right, Leave and Remain.

But what advantage is there in blaming voters for those of us that agree with Wood and Lewis? Surely it is better to emphasise the commonality of the material interests of all workers (whichever way they vote, or do not vote)? Is not the fact that majorities of tory voters recognise that nationalisations of key industries would be to their benefit is something that can be built on? The top reason people gave as a reason for voting leave was sovereignty, that they wanted greater control. OK you and I might not agree with all that they mean by sovereignty but surely the the fact that so many people recognised that capital and states are acting against their control of their lives, workplaces, communities was a good thing? My, and I assume your, aim is not to build the power 'the left' or the Labour Party, or even socialists, but the working class, 


*Strangely enough this logic only seems to apply to those voters that vote wrong, so voting Leave was supporting Tories and racism, but voting Remain was absolutely not an endorsement of fortress Europe or the attacks on Spain, Italy, Greece. Voting Tory is making a choice in favour of austerity but voting LibDem is not, because that is an anti-Tory vote (regardless of the fact that the 2019 Tory manifesto was economically to the left of the LDs).


----------



## brogdale (Mar 17, 2021)

redsquirrel said:


> OK let me come at it from a different angle.
> I was browsing the twitter feed of a former urban75 poster the other day and saw this quote. It is from _The Politics of Everybody_ by Holly Lewis, I've no idea what the book as a whole is like but this fragment is on target.
> 
> Ellen Meiksins Wood makes the same point in her brilliant _The Retreat from Class: A New "True" Socialism_
> ...


Thanks for such a thorough and patient response redsquirrel  

I'll give that the thought it deserves before replying.


----------



## redsquirrel (Mar 17, 2021)

Ta, and no worries.


----------



## Badgers (Mar 17, 2021)

I am done with the remain/leave argument now because nobody listens. Far too tribal and pointless. Voted remain and consider myself an internationalist more than a European, however the EU was a good start imo. 

Plenty of bickering on this thread from people who are (imo again) basing their responses on self interest at home or work. Ignoring the lying, racist and tax dodging cunts at the heart of this shit I have a bit more insight... 

Have been working on the Northern Ireland protocol since November and while this is better than EU customs and trade, it is still a fucking disaster. If you wanted to leave then fair play to you but if you had spent the last 4 months dealing with the despair and anger from UK business you might think again. 

The paperwork is way more than tenfold it was before and the systems are flawed. My staff (supporting customs) got three weeks training, whereas an HMRC agent would get six months. 

I have a large team of people working for me and had 25% quit in the last week due to stress. They have endured racist and sexist abuse over the phone and I have had to deal with the Police/Gardi twice now due to threats. 

Colleagues who live in Northern Ireland are telling me there are food shortages and hostility on the streets. 

Just 'teething problems' until the 'Oven ready deal' kicks in I am sure. At least we have happy fish rotting in ports and blue (actually black) passports manufactured in Poland. 

Hopefully the new nuclear weapons will help this police state stay safe.


----------



## brogdale (Mar 17, 2021)

redsquirrel said:


> OK let me come at it from a different angle.
> I was browsing the twitter feed of a former urban75 poster the other day and saw this quote. It is from _The Politics of Everybody_ by Holly Lewis, I've no idea what the book as a whole is like but this fragment is on target.
> 
> Ellen Meiksins Wood makes the same point in her brilliant _The Retreat from Class: A New "True" Socialism_
> ...


Yes, I totally get the base/superstructure argument wrt to the party based politics of rep. dem. 

My problem all along with the Brexit debate, (& I think I've been consistent in this view over the last 6 years posting on here), is that it only involved one aspect of the superstructural arrangement for promoting neoliberalism. Those advocating for accelerating neoliberalism by exiting the supra state certainly harnessed/exploited working class grievances with the deterioration in their material interests of the last 45 years, but I fear that, having bought into the Brexit project, many working class communities now see voting for the party that effected the exit as a solution.


----------



## gosub (Mar 17, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Yes, I totally get the base/superstructure argument wrt to the party based politics of rep. dem.
> 
> My problem all along with the Brexit debate, (& I think I've been consistent in this view over the last 6 years posting on here), is that it only involved one aspect of the superstructural arrangement for promoting neoliberalism. Those advocating for accelerating neoliberalism by exiting the supra state certainly harnessed/exploited working class grievances with the deterioration in their material interests of the last 45 years, but I fear that, having bought into the Brexit project, many working class communities now see voting for the party that effected the exit as a solution.











						U.S. vice president, WTO chief agree on need to reform global trade body
					

Vice President Kamala Harris and the head of the World Trade Organization agreed on Thursday about the need to reform the global trade body and pledged to work together to boost momentum for the global economy, the White House said.




					www.reuters.com


----------



## 2hats (Mar 17, 2021)

kebabking said:


> Again, zero sum thinking - how many Covid serious hospitalisations/deaths do they think _haven't _happened because of those 1.6m vaccinations?
> 
> If they had a) a surfeit of other vaccines lying around to replace the AZ shot, and b) hadn't spent the last 2 months stoking the anti-vax Crowd, then this wouldn't be particularly problematic, but heh, guess what...


Absolutely true but you are also ignoring both cultural issues and statutory obligations. There is a legal requirement to investigate abnormalities and being seen to proceed cautiously in some jurisdictions can promote confidence as much as, or more than, negative stories based on pisspoor journalistic understanding detract from it.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Mar 17, 2021)

This is unbelievably reckless behaviour by the EU. A policy based on generating unnecessary panics and seeking to ‘seize’ vaccines is verging on the criminally negligent. Worth noting that the EU has received 62.2 million vaccine doses but only used 48m to date. Can you imagine the reaction if the Tories were doing this?


----------



## brogdale (Mar 17, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> This is unbelievably reckless behaviour by the EU. A policy based on generating unnecessary panics and seeking to ‘seize’ vaccines is verging on the criminally negligent. Can you imagine the reaction if the Tories were doing this?



It's almost like they don't understand how their neoliberalism works.


----------



## Badgers (Mar 17, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> This is unbelievably reckless behaviour by the EU. A policy based on generating unnecessary panics and seeking to ‘seize’ vaccines is verging on the criminally negligent. Can you imagine the reaction if the Tories were doing this?



On paper it is reckless. 

However the day that the Murdoch press is a valid opinion is not this day.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Mar 17, 2021)

Badgers said:


> On paper it is reckless.
> 
> However the day that the Murdoch press is a valid opinion is not this day.



There you go Badgers. Even you can engage now:









						UK accuses EU of 'brinksmanship' over threats to slam brakes on vaccine exports
					

The European Commission president said "all options are on the table" as far as export controls on Covid-19 vaccines, in a bid to safeguard jabs for the bloc's own citizens facing a third wave of the pandemic




					www.mirror.co.uk


----------



## Badgers (Mar 17, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> There you go Badgers. Even you can engage now:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What is the point you are making?


----------



## kebabking (Mar 17, 2021)

Christ these people are as dumb as fucking pork.

First they fuck up the vaccine procurement, then they fuck around with 'is it safe, am I going to grow a tail?' for 2 months, and then wonder why no one wants to put it in their arms, and secondly they - in very obvious panic - start threatening to seize the drug production factories and ripping off IP whole simultaneously saying 'come and set up your factory in the EU, where you can do business in legal security....'.

Shit. The. Fucking. Bed.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 17, 2021)

It would be funny if thousands of people weren't dying as a result of these clowns.


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 17, 2021)

Badgers said:


> On paper it is reckless.
> 
> However the day that the Murdoch press is a valid opinion is not this day.


To be fair Badgers we don’t have the Murdoch press here but the view is the same in the press here  . The EU programme is slow , fractured by supply issues and it it should be a lot better .


----------



## gosub (Mar 17, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> To be fair Badgers we don’t have the Murdoch press here but the view is the same in the press here  . The EU programme is slow , fractured by supply issues and it it should be a lot better .



Except they now have also  created issues that fracture demand. and it should knpw better.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Mar 18, 2021)

Now that the lockdown easing/vaccination program is ongoing I’m starting to see a few ads for possible touring work next year.

Almost without exception they all specify a European passport as a requirement.

Fuck you leave voters. Fuck the lot of you.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 18, 2021)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> Now that the lockdown easing/vaccination program is ongoing I’m starting to see a few ads for possible touring work next year.
> 
> Almost without exception they all specify a European passport as a requirement.
> 
> Fuck you leave voters. Fuck the lot of you.



No English, Some Irish, Dogs welcome.

Sounds borderline illegal to advertise that in the U.K., currently there is a lot of confusion over U.K. people
working in the EU and what the new rules are, cos they are new and cos hardly anyone has done it cos of Covid. I take it you are not planning on going back out on the road, have you thought of using your contacts to set up visa procurement for audio technicians? The process is incredibly simple, I have been doing it for a number of artists on my books who need to work in the EU regularly but couldn’t come back to the U.K. cos of Covid restrictions and so have stayed out there and burned through their 90 days, have got them all visas to stay out pretty much indefinitely. You could make a killing, it has certainly brought in more money than flights have these past few months...


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Mar 18, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> No English, Some Irish, Dogs welcome.
> 
> Sounds borderline illegal to advertise that in the U.K., currently there is a lot of confusion over U.K. people
> working in the EU and what the new rules are, cos they are new and cos hardly anyone has done it cos of Covid. I take it you are not planning on going back out on the road, have you thought of using your contacts to set up visa procurement for audio technicians? The process is incredibly simple, I have been doing it for a number of artists on my books who need to work in the EU regularly but couldn’t come back to the U.K. cos of Covid restrictions and so have stayed out there and burned through their 90 days, have got them all visas to stay out pretty much indefinitely. You could make a killing, it has certainly brought in more money than flights have these past few months...


The reason people are asking for EU passports is the sheer uncertainty. While there’s every chance things will be clearer/sorted next year, that’s no use now when people are booking everything.

As for it being borderline, yeah, probably is. But the whole scene is so “who you know” and informal in the way people are booked it’s easy for those involved to do.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Mar 18, 2021)

As for visa procurement... Hmmm, maybe. Tell me how 😂


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 18, 2021)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> As for visa procurement... Hmmm, maybe. Tell me how 😂



Contact the embassy of the first country they go to (or the one where they’ll spend most time) and ask for a talent visa, once they have that they can stay in the EU for far longer than 90 days so long as they are being paid by a non-EU company for doing so, i.e. the ‘talent’ works for (is represented by) an agency in the U.K. - so maybe also set up as a roadie-agent too...although the shortened form of that would be rodent, which ain’t great...


----------



## andysays (Mar 18, 2021)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> Fuck you leave voters. Fuck the lot of you.





beesonthewhatnow said:


> As for it being borderline, yeah, probably is. But the whole scene is so “who you know” and informal in the way people are booked it’s easy for those involved to do.


From all the stuff you and others have posted about the music/events industry, it appears to a complete outsider that your industry is fucked and based on even higher levels of exploitation than normal.

Maybe you might consider actually addressing those issues rather than constantly blaming those of us who voted the opposite way to you in a referendum five years ago for all your problems.


----------



## Saul Goodman (Mar 18, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Contact the embassy of the first country they go to (or the one where they’ll spend most time) and ask for a talent visa


What if your band has no talent?


----------



## two sheds (Mar 18, 2021)

Eurovision Song Contest of course


----------



## kebabking (Mar 18, 2021)

Saul Goodman said:


> What if your band has no talent?



Asking for a mod?


----------



## Badgers (Mar 18, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> To be fair Badgers we don’t have the Murdoch press here but the view is the same in the press here  . The EU programme is slow , fractured by supply issues and it it should be a lot better .


Where in the world is different?


----------



## Maggot (Mar 18, 2021)

andysays said:


> Maybe you might consider actually addressing those issues rather than constantly blaming those of us who voted the opposite way to you in a referendum five years ago for all your problems.


The fact that Bees no longer has an EU passport is entirely the fault of the people who voted for Brexit.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 18, 2021)

kebabking said:


> Asking for a mod?



You cunt


----------



## Badgers (Mar 23, 2021)

__





						Data shows collapse of UK food and drink exports post-Brexit | Food & drink industry | The Guardian
					






					amp-theguardian-com.cdn.ampproject.org


----------



## Artaxerxes (Mar 23, 2021)

Badgers said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Middle class bollocks. 🙃


----------



## Badgers (Mar 23, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Middle class bollocks. 🙃


So?


----------



## Artaxerxes (Mar 23, 2021)

Badgers said:


> So?



I may not be entirely serious unlike some


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Mar 23, 2021)

If it wasn’t for a pesky global pandemic that has closed the hospitality sector, a direct correlation with imports and the fact that the small additional  dip due to new regulations had already corrected itself by February Badgers and the Guardian would have found their smoking gun.

Next....


----------



## editor (Mar 23, 2021)

kebabking said:


> Asking for a mod?


Could you explain this comment please? Thanks.


----------



## Badgers (Mar 23, 2021)




----------



## editor (Mar 23, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Contact the embassy of the first country they go to (or the one where they’ll spend most time) and ask for a talent visa, once they have that they can stay in the EU for far longer than 90 days so long as they are being paid by a non-EU company for doing so, i.e. the ‘talent’ works for (is represented by) an agency in the U.K. - so maybe also set up as a roadie-agent too...although the shortened form of that would be rodent, which ain’t great...


Could you give some real world examples of this seemingly effortless procedure being used by bands, along with a time and cost analysis? 

And you know that not many bands don't use agencies and do it all themselves, right?


----------



## kebabking (Mar 23, 2021)

editor said:


> Could you explain this comment please? Thanks.



Yeah, I always thought mod bands were a bit shit. Too try-hard.

Barbara Streisand was so much more authentic...


----------



## Badgers (Mar 23, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> If it wasn’t for a pesky global pandemic that has closed the hospitality sector, a direct correlation with imports and the fact that the small additional  dip due to new regulations had already corrected itself by February Badgers and the Guardian would have found their smoking gun.
> 
> Next....


What? 

I am working on this shit and your point is?


----------



## editor (Mar 23, 2021)

kebabking said:


> Yeah, I always thought mod bands were a bit shit. Too try-hard.
> 
> Barbara Streisand was so much more authentic...


What has that any of that got to do with the current discussion around Brexit?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 23, 2021)

editor said:


> Could you give some real world examples of this seemingly effortless procedure being used by bands, along with a time and cost analysis?
> 
> And you know that not many bands don't use agencies and do it all themselves, right?




My reply was to beesonthewhatnow with regards to sorting out visas for audio technicians (and roadies), so really a bit confused as to why you feel the need to wade in and ask for examples of how this is done for a random profession not under discussion.


----------



## kebabking (Mar 23, 2021)

editor said:


> What has that any of that got to do with the current discussion around Brexit?



The post I replied to was about musical ability.


----------



## bimble (Mar 23, 2021)

Badgers said:


> What?
> 
> I am working on this shit and your point is?


You must be imagining it, it was only a blip and its already 'corrected itself' ok.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Mar 23, 2021)

Badgers said:


>




#notrealproblems


----------



## brogdale (Mar 23, 2021)

bimble said:


> You must be imagining it, it was only a blip and its already 'corrected itself' ok.



Anyone imagining we're not in a European Free Trade zone is "silly".


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 23, 2021)

kebabking said:


> The post I replied to was about musical ability.



Don't much rate the music much, but met Paul Weller in a pub in Send and he was a thoroughly nice man.


----------



## editor (Mar 23, 2021)

kebabking said:


> The post I replied to was about musical ability.


----------



## gosub (Mar 23, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Don't much rate the music much, but met Paul Weller in a pub in Send and he was a thoroughly nice man.


Funny you bump into him in his local


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 23, 2021)

gosub said:


> Funny you bump into him in his local




Was very nearly my local, but the sale fell through and we bought in Walton instead.


----------



## editor (Mar 23, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> My reply was to beesonthewhatnow with regards to sorting out visas for audio technicians (and roadies), so really a bit confused as to why you feel the need to wade in and ask for examples of how this is done for a random profession not under discussion.


Could you give some real  examples of roadies going through the procedure you outlined?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 23, 2021)

editor said:


> Could you give some real  examples of roadies going through the procedure you outlined?




Is it stoopid day today? The new rules came in late on 31st December 2020, how many gigs, let alone European tours have taken place since then?


What has happened is a few artists for whom I arrange travel have had need to stay in the EU since early January, they would normally shuttle back and forth between the UK and the EU, but due to Covid restrictions flitting between the two is tricky right now, so whilst they are burning through their 90 days we have been applying for talent visas for them to stay out in the EU for much longer, each so far has been granted 24 months. The process is as described in the post of mine you quoted. The same will apply for all talent, such as audio technicians/roadies.


----------



## editor (Mar 23, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Is it stoopid day today? The new rules came in late on 31st December 2020, how many gigs, let alone European tours have taken place since then?


It sure seems to be make up stories day. Bands normally book European gigs months or years in advance. Yet hardly any are being booked and there are plenty of examples of Brexit being cited as a result.

If your solution had any practicality, there would be multiple examples of bands/roadies successfully using it already, so I asked you to give some examples and give some ideas of the cost/time involved.

It appears you have no such examples to offer.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 23, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Is it stoopid day today? The new rules came in late on 31st December 2020, how many gigs, let alone European tours have taken place since then?
> 
> 
> What has happened is a few artists for whom I arrange travel have had need to stay in the EU since early January, they would normally shuttle back and forth between the UK and the EU, but due to Covid restrictions flitting between the two is tricky right now, so whilst they are burning through their 90 days we have been applying for talent visas for them to stay out in the EU for much longer, each so far has been granted 24 months. The process is as described in the post of mine you quoted. The same will apply for all talent, such as audio technicians/roadies.


Why has this become about fucking bands again? There’s a whole thread dedicated to the half-dozen people who actually give a toss about this.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 23, 2021)

editor said:


> It sure seems to be make up stories day. Bands normally book European gigs months or years in advance. Yet hardly any are being booked and there are plenty of examples of Brexit being cited as a result.
> 
> If your solution had any practicality, there would be multiple examples of bands/roadies successfully using it already, so I asked you to give some examples and give some ideas of the cost/time involved.
> 
> It appears you have no such examples to offer.



No, you steamed in to a conversation where an new oppertunity was being discussed, to *start* offering visas to technicians and roadies; who better to start this service than someone heavily involved with the industry, but who had recently stepped back from touring?

You asked for examples knowing full well there have not been any tours yet, so you can put that straw man back in his box.

You didn't ask for costs and time, the real life examples I have the countries we have done this with are France, Sweden, Italy and Germany, the cost varied between £130 and £380. The time taken also varied from just over two weeks to five weeks. But we are in a pandemic which means embassies are running on skeleton staff, plus the system is new to the embassy staff, so the processing time is expected to come down.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 23, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Why has this become about fucking bands again? There’s a whole thread dedicated to the half-dozen people who actually give a toss about this.



No idea, I was talking about technical talent, but that was hijacked by the 'won't anyone think of the touring bands' crew demanding I provide information of real life examples of things that have not been allowed to happen yet.


----------



## 19sixtysix (Mar 23, 2021)

I succeeded in getting a equipment to Germany for repair. It may even get back to us now. Required lots of emails, zero money invoices, vat/eori numbers and commodity codes and several sheets of paper. The paper industry will gain from this. For NI you need the same but with different numbers. It's all going so well. I really do have better shit to do with my life.


----------



## editor (Mar 23, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> You didn't ask for costs and time, the real life examples I have the countries we have done this with are France, Sweden, Italy and Germany, the cost varied between £130 and £380. The time taken also varied from just over two weeks to five weeks. But we are in a pandemic which means embassies are running on skeleton staff, plus the system is new to the embassy staff, so the processing time is expected to come down.


So that's plenty of small bands/roadies/band crew priced out of the picture because of shitty fucking Brexit. Any thoughts about them?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 23, 2021)

editor said:


> So that's plenty of small bands/roadies/band crew priced out of the picture because of shitty fucking Brexit. Any thoughts about them?



My thoughts? If someone can't find what appears to be a maximum of £3.65 a week then perhaps they should consider a different career.

Small band tours of Europe are such a niche industry that their plight shouldn't really keep trashing threads across the boards, we get it that you're pissed off, we heard you the first time, but perhaps it is time to face the reality of the situation and start working on how you can make it happen, if that is what you really want to do and you aren't just up for a moan.


----------



## andysays (Mar 23, 2021)

editor said:


> So that's plenty of small bands/roadies/band crew priced out of the picture because of shitty fucking Brexit. Any thoughts about them?


Since you're asking for concrete examples with figures from real life, perhaps you could provide similar for the various claims you've made about how Brexit and Brexit alone is making the difference between tours being economical or not.

Or if you're unable or unwilling to do this yourself (perfectly reasonably, TBH), perhaps you could stop asking others to do similar.


----------



## Shechemite (Mar 23, 2021)

kebabking said:


> Learn. Listen. Learn. Humble pie. Listen. Learn.



Well that’s not going to happen


----------



## editor (Mar 23, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> My thoughts? If someone can't find what appears to be a maximum of £3.65 a week then perhaps they should consider a different career.
> 
> Small band tours of Europe are such a niche industry that their plight shouldn't really keep trashing threads across the boards, we get it that you're pissed off, we heard you the first time, but perhaps it is time to face the reality of the situation and start working on how you can make it happen, if that is what you really want to do and you aren't just up for a moan.


Yeah. Fuck the musicians, the road crews, the small bands and their livelihoods. And the rest of the non-corporate arts industry too. They're well worth throwing under the bus in exchange for the glories of Brexit if they can't come up with the extra cash. In fact, they should follow your advice and give up altogether.

And imagine someone going on and on about it on a website which has an independent /non corporate ethos at its very core!


----------



## editor (Mar 23, 2021)

andysays said:


> Since you're asking for concrete examples with figures from real life, perhaps you could provide similar for the various claims you've made about how Brexit and Brexit alone is making the difference between tours being economical or not.
> 
> Or if you're unable or unwilling to do this yourself (perfectly reasonably, TBH), perhaps you could stop asking others to do similar.


If you've missed all the links and examples that have been posted up before, I can't be arsed to repeat them again, sorry. 

But you could start here: 





__





						New Brexit Deal Does Nothing for Musicians says MU
					

New Brexit Deal published today (Thursday 17 October) does not deal with issues for musicians which have been pointed out by the MU and others.




					musiciansunion.org.uk
				






> Tours that happen beyond the EU are always very costly and time-consuming to put together, not least because of the complex visa, carnet and paperwork requirements. European touring has been much easier – with the ability to tour to 27 European countries without any need for visas or work permits for musicians or carnets (temporary export licenses) for instruments.
> 
> Many of our members visit several European countries over the course of a week, often with very little notice, and do this on a regular basis. Anything that hampers their ability to do this is potentially catastrophic for our members’ careers.
> 
> This new deal doesn’t deal with any of the issues musicians will face. Indeed, because the commitment to the ‘single customs territory’ has been removed this would appear to confirm that goods will need to be checked at borders meaning that this deal could be even more damaging than the previous one brought forward by Theresa May.











						The reality of Brexit to Musicians
					

The reality and challenges of trying to play one show in Spain with Brexit forcing your hand




					scannerdot.com


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 23, 2021)

editor said:


> Yeah. Fuck the musicians, the road crews, the small bands and their livelihoods. And the rest of the non-corporate arts industry too. They're well worth throwing under the bus in exchange for the glories of Brexit if they can't come up with the extra cash. In fact, they should follow your advice and give up altogether.
> 
> And imagine someone going on and on about it on a website which has an independent /non corporate ethos at its very core!




Seriously man, if you can't come up with £3.65 a week then yes, you really should give up as even the shonkiest hobbyists can pull in more than that.


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 23, 2021)

If only we had a dedicated thread about travelling musicians and Brexit


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 23, 2021)

editor said:


> If you've missed all the links and examples that have been posted up before, I can't be arsed to repeat them again, sorry.
> 
> But you could start here:
> 
> ...





editor said:


> Bands normally book European gigs months or years in advance.







Which is it? Schrodinger's gig?


----------



## andysays (Mar 23, 2021)

editor said:


> If you've missed all the links and examples that have been posted up before, I can't be arsed to repeat them again, sorry.
> 
> But you could start here:
> 
> ...


You've just asked Bahnhof Strasse to post detailed examples from their own life experience, yet you refuse to post anything similar about your own personal details. 

While I would be genuinely interested in seeing a financial breakdown demonstrating how a European tour which made money pre-Brexit would now be unviable, I completely understand why you wouldn't want to post such info here.

But if you're not prepared to do that, you can't expect everyone to simply accept your claim at face value, given how strong your opinions are about Brexit generally.

And you certainly can't expect others to post personal info to back up their claims if you're not prepared to do it yourself. No one can.


----------



## editor (Mar 23, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Which is it? Schrodinger's gig?


I'm sorry if you don't understand the business well enough.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 23, 2021)

editor said:


> I'm sorry if you don't understand the business well enough.


----------



## editor (Mar 23, 2021)

andysays said:


> You've just asked Bahnhof Strasse to post detailed examples from their own life experience, yet you refuse to post anything similar about your own personal details.
> 
> While I would be genuinely interested in seeing a financial breakdown demonstrating how a European tour which made money pre-Brexit would now be unviable, I completely understand why you wouldn't want to post such info here.
> 
> ...


My personal details are simply this: for the first time in 5 years my band has zero European dates lined up. Not one. 

Covid clearly killed off a huge part of that but Brexit is putting in the final boot with the uncertainly about costs/visas/carnets meaning that both bands and venues are extremely reluctant to start planning anything. 

But this has already been well documented so I don't know why you need my particular experience.


----------



## editor (Mar 23, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Seriously man, if you can't come up with £3.65 a week then yes, you really should give up as even the shonkiest hobbyists can pull in more than that.


Could you produce your time/costs workings for this please. Thanks.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 23, 2021)

editor said:


> My personal details are simply this: for the first time in 5 years my band has zero European dates lined up. Not one.
> 
> Covid clearly killed off a huge part of that but Brexit is putting in the final boot with the uncertainly about costs/visas/carnets meaning that both bands and venues are extremely reluctant to start planning anything.
> 
> But this has already been well documented so I don't know why you need my particular experience.




Your band has US tours line dup though, postponed to 2022 due to Covid. You need costs/visas/carnets* for there, so clearly not as impossible as you make out.

or amy I not understanding the business well enough?





* have previously posted how you, _your band_ DO NOT NEED a Carnet for touring Europe. But don't let helpful advice get through for fear of spoiling a good rant.


----------



## editor (Mar 23, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Your band has US tours line dup though, postponed to 2022 due to Covid. You need costs/visas/carnets* for there, so clearly not as impossible as you make out.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 23, 2021)

editor said:


> Could you produce your time/costs workings for this please. Thanks.




I might need kabbes to help here, as I might run out of fingers and toes...





Bahnhof Strasse said:


> I we have been applying for talent visas for them to stay out in the EU for much longer, each so far has been granted 24 months.





Bahnhof Strasse said:


> You didn't ask for costs and time, the real life examples I have the countries we have done this with are France, Sweden, Italy and Germany, the cost varied between £130 and £380.



Two years = 104 weeks.

£380  ÷  104 = £3.65 a week

Phew, that grade C grade GCSE came good in the end


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Mar 23, 2021)

bimble said:


> You must be imagining it, it was only a blip and its already 'corrected itself' ok.



We’ve already had the debate on what the ONS report actually says about exports and imports and what the Guardian report on it says. Scroll back on the thread. By the way the bit about ‘correcting itself’ is actually from the latter. Maybe, it’s time remainers now launch an investigation into the Guardian and whether they are secret brexiteers??


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 23, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> I might need kabbes to help here, as I might run out of fingers and toes...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



At the end of the day certain groups will undoubtedly be inconvenienced to some degree and it's also going to cost others a few quid. That was always going to be the case. The question is, should the discomfort of some, overide the wishes of the majority who see other benefits? With that in mind, most people would probably consider the perceived plight of the handful of hobby musicians who'll be affected, somewhere on a par with that of British biscuit designers. Unfortunate, but of negligible consequence in the greater scheme of things.


----------



## gosub (Mar 23, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> At the end of the day certain groups will undoubtedly be inconvenienced to some degree and it's also going to cost others a few quid. That was always going to be the case. The question is, should the discomfort of some, overide the wishes of the majority who see other benefits? With that in mind, most people would probably consider the perceived plight of a handful of hobby musicians somewhere on a par with that of British biscuit designers. Unfortunate, but of negligible consequence in the greater scheme of things.



Negligible consequence! May all your biscuits end up at the bottom of your tea.  Some things are important


----------



## andysays (Mar 23, 2021)

editor said:


> My personal details are simply this: for the first time in 5 years my band has zero European dates lined up. Not one.
> 
> Covid clearly killed off a huge part of that but Brexit is putting in the final boot with the uncertainly about costs/visas/carnets meaning that both bands and venues are extremely reluctant to start planning anything.
> 
> But this has already been well documented so I don't know why you need my particular experience.


That's nowhere near being a financial breakdown demonstrating how a tour which was viable pre-Brexit becomes uneconomic post-Brexit, which is the claim which has repeatedly been made by you and others, but which no one has actually been prepared to back up.

It's a shame that discussion on this issue has become so bad tempered and so personalised, but it appears to me that a great deal of the responsibility for that is yours.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 23, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> At the end of the day certain groups will undoubtedly be inconvenienced to some degree and it's also going to cost others a few quid. That was always going to be the case. The question is, should the discomfort of some, overide the wishes of the majority who see other benefits? With that in mind, most people would probably consider the perceived plight of the handful of hobby musicians who'll be affected, somewhere on a par with that of British biscuit designers. Unfortunate, but of negligible consequence in the greater scheme of things.




Exactly, and whether it is worth it or not will always be a personal thing, but the endless whinging about it won't change a thing, so it really is time to put on the big boy pants and deal with the reality of the situation. I really did receive a five grand bike from Germany last week, (I'm sure you can't wait to pop round and have a ride   ), the manufacturer Canyon halted deliveries in early January to asses the new situation, a situation jumped on by some as early proof of the sky falling in of course. After two weeks they had sorted it, so they have a price on their website in GBP that you pay and your bike gets delivered. None of the nonsense from that dickhead with his bike from Poland. It's just how professional people go about their business.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 23, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> At the end of the day certain groups will undoubtedly be inconvenienced to some degree and it's also going to cost others a few quid. That was always going to be the case. The question is, should the discomfort of some, overide the wishes of the majority who see other benefits? With that in mind, most people would probably consider the perceived plight of the handful of hobby musicians who'll be affected, somewhere on a par with that of British biscuit designers. Unfortunate, but of negligible consequence in the greater scheme of things.


What majority are you talking about here?

The 17-odd million who voted for Brexit five years ago with no definition whatever as to what that Brexit might entail, in fact with strong words from the pro-brexit campaigners that exactly this kind of thing would not happen?

Or is it perhaps the 12-odd million who voted tory in the last election? They can be said to be more capable of knowing what they were voting for, but 12-odd million out of about 52 million adults is not in any sense a majority, either of the absolute numbers of people or even just from those who voted.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 23, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> What majority are you talking about here?
> 
> The 17-odd million who voted for Brexit five years ago with no definition whatever as to what that Brexit might entail ...



Yes. Them, and those of us who voted remain but have since realised the error of our ways.


----------



## Maggot (Mar 23, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> If it wasn’t for a pesky global pandemic that has closed the hospitality sector, a direct correlation with imports and the fact that the small additional  dip due to new regulations had already corrected itself by February Badgers and the Guardian would have found their smoking gun.
> 
> Next....


75% drop in exports is a small additional dip.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 23, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Yes. Them, and those of us who voted remain but have since realised the error of our ways.


Right, so that's absurd. 'the majority' didn't vote for _this Brexit_, and the various fuck-ups of this Brexit, the thing that's actually happened, cannot just be fobbed off as 'tough shit, the majority wants it'. You cannot say that. 

Fucking hell. A whole bunch of urbs acting as apologists for the tory government.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Mar 23, 2021)

Maggot said:


> 75% drop in exports is a small additional dip.



_Even The Guardian_ doesn't claim that.

Next...


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Mar 23, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> the thing that's actually happened



What, precisely, has happened?


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 23, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> _Even The Guardian_ doesn't claim that.
> 
> Next...



By Maggot logic, if Crystal Palace went one goal down in the first minute, they'd lose 90-nil.


----------



## andysays (Mar 23, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> At the end of the day certain groups will undoubtedly be inconvenienced to some degree and it's also going to cost others a few quid. That was always going to be the case. The question is, should the discomfort of some, overide the wishes of the majority who see other benefits? With that in mind, most people would probably consider the perceived plight of the handful of hobby musicians who'll be affected, somewhere on a par with that of British biscuit designers. Unfortunate, but of negligible consequence in the greater scheme of things.


This post really takes the biscuit...


----------



## Maggot (Mar 23, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> _Even The Guardian_ doesn't claim that.
> 
> Next...


From the other thread.


----------



## Maggot (Mar 23, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> By Maggot logic, if Crystal Palace went one goal down in the first minute, they'd lose 90-nil.


Brexit is just a series of own goals.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 23, 2021)

Maggot said:


> From the other thread.
> View attachment 259965
> View attachment 259965


You do understand what that says, right?


----------



## bimble (Mar 23, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> You do understand what that says, right?


Does it say, with your glasses on, that people are drinking 63% less whiskey because of covid?


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 23, 2021)

bimble said:


> Does it say, with your glasses on, that people are drinking 63% less whiskey because of covid?


No


----------



## bimble (Mar 23, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> No


Have you got Spy’s glasses on?


----------



## brogdale (Mar 23, 2021)

bimble said:


> Have you got Spy’s glasses on?


No, really.
It says that the YoY value of Whisky exported from the UK to the EU in January had fallen by 63%.
The data tells us nothing about consumption of Whisky, here or there.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 23, 2021)

bimble said:


> Have you got Spy’s glasses on?


You don't understand what that document says, do you.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 23, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> You don't understand what that document says, do you.


She's not the only one, tbf.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 23, 2021)

But answer came there none


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 23, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> She's not the only one, tbf.


Imagine all the people


----------



## bimble (Mar 23, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> You don't understand what that document says, do you.


I think I understand what it says but tbh am not very interested in why  ‘the value of exported whisky fell by 63%’ is totally separate from ‘people drinking  63% less whiskey’, in this context, unless whiskey is suddenly really cheap. I quite like whiskey.


----------



## brogdale (Mar 23, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> She's not the only one, tbf.


Yeah, but whichever way you choose to explain the numbers, they're quite obviously dire for the sectors identified. The unknown is to what extent they maintain or ameliorate.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 23, 2021)

bimble said:


> I think I understand what it says but tbh am not very interested in why  ‘the value of exported whisky fell by 63%’ being totally separate from ‘people drinking  63% less whiskey’, in this context, unless whilskey is suddenly really cheap .


Less whisky is going to the EU. This does not mean there is a decline in the amount consumed commensurate with that decline because not all whisky goes to Europe. And if you're not actually interested in it I have to wonder why you've mentioned it at all


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 23, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Yeah, but whichever way you choose to explain the numbers, they're quite obviously dire for the sectors identified. The unknown is to what extent they maintain or ameliorate.


Be interesting to see what the Feb figures were, then the March, April ...


----------



## Doppelgänger (Mar 23, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Less whisky is going to the EU. This does not mean there is a decline in the amount consumed commensurate with that decline because not all whisky goes to Europe.



But has the amount which dropped, been offset by increased exports elsewhere?

I suspect not.


----------



## bimble (Mar 23, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Less whisky is going to the EU. This does not mean there is a decline in the amount consumed commensurate with that decline because not all whisky goes to Europe.


Yes silly me. America has i think just agreed to drop whiskey tariffs so all Will be well.


----------



## brogdale (Mar 23, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Less whisky is going to the EU. This does not mean there is a decline in the amount consumed commensurate with that decline because not all whisky goes to Europe.


and in the short-term, (for that is all we have post Brexit), any downturn in EU imports may well have been more than covered by pre-Brexit stockpiling. I very much doubt that the continentals' Scotch habits have changed radically in 2021.


----------



## brogdale (Mar 23, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Be interesting to see what the Feb figures were, then the March, April ...


indeed, OTWT


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 23, 2021)

Doppelgänger said:


> But has the amount which dropped, been offset by exports elsewhere?
> 
> I suspect not.


tbh it doesn't matter if all that whisky which might have been expected to go to the EU was poured into loch ness, there still wouldn't be a decline of 63% in the volume consumed or the value sold.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 23, 2021)

Also depends how much whisky is already sitting in EU warehouses.

Edit> as Brogdale points out above.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 23, 2021)

bimble said:


> Yes silly me. America has i think just agreed to drop whiskey tariffs so all Will be well.


Far more scotch goes there than goes to Europe anyway


----------



## bimble (Mar 23, 2021)

This suggests that Europeans have just lately not been getting the whiskey they would have enjoyed drinking. Maybe they’ve been drinking other whiskey, or other people have been drinking it all, the whiskey the Europeans wanted, but that seems unlikely.




__





						Subscribe to read | Financial Times
					

News, analysis and comment from the Financial Times, the worldʼs leading global business publication




					www.ft.com


----------



## brogdale (Mar 23, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Far more scotch goes there than goes to Europe anyway


And Japan?

I seem to remember once being told that one reason why Japanese corporate chiefs tended to direct investment into the UK was because they liked to play golf here so much. What bollux; it was the draw of the still, obvs.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Mar 23, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Be interesting to see what the Feb figures were, then the March, April ...



The tin foil army will have moved by then of course to the latest ‘shock revelation’ about the impending Armageddon as a result of Brexit (neatly ignoring the actual meltdown currently taking hold across  the world economy). Fortunately we’ll be here to remind them of their latest folly...


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 23, 2021)

brogdale said:


> And Japan?
> 
> I seem to remember once being told that one reason why Japanese corporate chiefs tended to direct investment into the UK was because they liked to play golf here so much. What bollux; it was the draw of the still, obvs.


Wonder if it's still the still


----------



## Yossarian (Mar 23, 2021)

According to the Food and Drink Federation, exports as a whole were down 13.8% in the first half of 2020 compared to the first half of 2019, with exports to the EU down 14.5%.

The bright spots included increases in pork sales to China, sugar sales to Norway, and gin sales to Canada.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 23, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> According to the Food and Drink Federation, exports as a whole were down 13.8% in the first half of 2020 compared to the first half of 2019, with exports to the EU down 14.5%.
> 
> The bright spots included increases in pork sales to China, sugar sales to Norway, and gin sales to Canada.



So pork bellies are up, how’s frozen-concentrated-orange-juice doing?


----------



## two sheds (Mar 23, 2021)

More mothers being ruined in Canada then


----------



## Yossarian (Mar 23, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> So pork bellies are up, how’s frozen-concentrated-orange-juice doing?



The only oranges the British are going to be selling overseas are Terry's chocolate ones.


----------



## brogdale (Mar 23, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> According to the Food and Drink Federation, exports as a whole were down 13.8% in the first half of 2020 compared to the first half of 2019, with exports to the EU down 14.5%.
> 
> The bright spots included increases in pork sales to China, sugar sales to Norway, and gin sales to Canada.


_Pork markets!_


----------



## bimble (Mar 23, 2021)

India is a massive buyer of scotch. It’s what people want as a sort of prestige gift.
And they’re being badgered by the UK Gov to drop their tariffs , as  part of the trade deal.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 23, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> The only oranges the British are going to be selling overseas are Terry's chocolate ones.



Far more yummy than the squidgy muck the Spanish try to palm off on us.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 23, 2021)

bimble said:


> India is a massive buyer of scotch. It’s what people want as a sort of prestige gift.
> And they’re being badgered by the UK Gov to drop their tariffs , as  part of the trade deal.



Imported booze has a massive tariff on it in India, so much so that BA won’t serve champagne on the ground in first and business class when departing India.


----------



## bimble (Mar 23, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Imported booze has a massive tariff on it in India, so much so that BA won’t serve champagne on the ground in first and business class when departing India.


Yep. 150% on scotch apparently .








						UK seeks duty cut on Scotch whisky
					

The move would widely open up Britain’s third-largest exports market for scotch whisky by volume after France and the US.




					www.livemint.com


----------



## muscovyduck (Mar 23, 2021)

if it's really so hard to import stuff since January then people are probably buying more UK whisky which would balance it out a bit.


----------



## brogdale (Mar 23, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> The tin foil army will have moved by then of course to the latest ‘shock revelation’ about the impending Armageddon as a result of Brexit (neatly ignoring the actual meltdown currently taking hold across  the world economy). Fortunately we’ll be here to remind them of their latest folly...


Casting those who interpret the FDA UK-EU Jan trade data differently to yourself as a "tin foil army" doesn't sound like its coming from a secure position, tbh.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 23, 2021)

bimble said:


> India is a massive buyer of scotch. It’s what people want as a sort of prestige gift.
> And they’re being badgered by the UK Gov to drop their tariffs , as  part of the trade deal.



When you say "badgered" ...? 

Dropping tariffs is what trade deals are about.


----------



## Doppelgänger (Mar 23, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> tbh it doesn't matter if all that whisky which might have been expected to go to the EU was poured into loch ness, there still wouldn't be a decline of 63% in the volume consumed or the value sold.



The EU is the biggest single export market for Scotch, at least in 2019...

Not 63%, but almost one third. That is sizeable.









						Scotch Whisky Export figures 2019
					

Find out how much Scotch Whisky exports were worth last year, and how many bottles of Scotch Whisky were shipped in 2019.




					www.scotch-whisky.org.uk


----------



## Yossarian (Mar 23, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Fucking hell. A whole bunch of urbs acting as apologists for the tory government.



Well, yeah - now that Brexit has happened and is the status quo, the Guardians of Brexit can probably stand down and criticise government policies without the fear of being labeled a closet Remoaner. Pointing out ways in which this doesn't seem to be going very well shouldn't really be a Leave/Remain issue at all.


----------



## kebabking (Mar 23, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Far more yummy than the squidgy muck the Spanish try to palm off on us.



You Sir, are _dead _to me....


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 23, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Imported booze has a massive tariff on it in India, so much so that BA won’t serve champagne on the ground in first and business class when departing India.


Bastards


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 23, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> Well, yeah - now that Brexit has happened and is the status quo, the Guardians of Brexit can probably stand down and criticise government policies without the fear of being labeled a closet Remoaner. Pointing out ways in which this doesn't seem to be going very well shouldn't really be a Leave/Remain issue at all.


Brexit will never have happened, it's going to be ongoing for years


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Mar 23, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Casting those who interpret the FDA UK-EU Jan trade data differently to yourself as a "tin foil army" doesn't sound like its coming from a secure position, tbh.



Timely that you reference a secure position, because that’s the debate we need to be having.

Sensible remain long departed the scene, either for tactical reasons or simply because it recognised that the debate was over or even because a conclusion was reached by some that maybe they were on the wrong side.

All that’s left is the militant wing. Increasingly desperate, shrill, prone to conspiracy and seizing on scraps of ‘evidence’ to prove as someone said a few pages ago ‘that something has happened’.

Devoid of any narrative to explain what’s happened, what’s happening and what should happen. Remain is in crisis. Obsessive focus on a trade body’s report frozen in isolation for one month to prove that exports have collapsed during a worldwide pandemic.

Nothing to say on the melting EU economy, the vaccine programme exploding the inherent contradiction of its addiction to the free market or the unfolding crisis of political legitimacy across the EU. Not even a scrap of any idea of how we would rejoin and under what conditions. A collapse into a feeling, a long nostalgia for an imagined past.

Leaving aside one month of trading figures - contingent on loads of factors and anyway indicating recovery within the month - can anyone point to one recent strategic, well argued, properly researched and proportionate argument advanced by Remain written in the last 12 months??


----------



## Maggot (Mar 23, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Leaving aside one month of trading figures - contingent on loads of factors and anyway indicating recovery within the month - can anyone point to one recent strategic, well argued, properly researched and proportionate argument advanced by Remain written in the last 12 months??





Maggot said:


> It's not just cost/benefit. It's losing the freedom to live and work in 27 other countries. It's jobs. It's breaking the Good Friday Agreement. It's Erasmus. It's staff shortages in the NHS.


----------



## bimble (Mar 23, 2021)

That’s just bizarre to me, ‘sensible remain long departed the scene’ means anyone saying there are difficulties as a result of the brexit must be an extremist of some sort? Very odd.
Whats ‘the scene’ anyway, any conversation about the brexit?


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Mar 23, 2021)

bimble said:


> That’s just bizarre to me, ‘sensible remain long departed the scene’ means anyone saying there are difficulties as a result of the brexit must be an extremist of some sort?



It’s also a fact.

And not an ‘extremist’ but someone politically unmoored


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 23, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Obsessive focus on a trade body’s report frozen in isolation for one month to prove that exports have collapsed during a worldwide pandemic.



 

*75% *though!!!


----------



## bimble (Mar 23, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> It’s also a fact.
> 
> And not an ‘extremist’ but someone politically unmoored


Ok then.


----------



## Maggot (Mar 23, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Sensible remain long departed the scene, either for tactical reasons or simply because it recognised that the debate was over or even because a conclusion was reached by some that maybe they were on the wrong side.


 

Sensible remain departed because arguing with you lot is a waste of time and energy.


----------



## Maggot (Mar 23, 2021)

22,000 NHS staff from the EU left since the Referendum. Most of those vacancies weren't filled. I wonder how many Covid deaths that caused? 









						More than 22,000 EU nationals have left NHS since Brexit referendum, figures show
					

Liberal Democrats warn that replacements will be deterred by new visa and health surcharge fees after UK leaves the EU




					www.independent.co.uk


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 23, 2021)

Maggot said:


> 22,000 NHS staff from the EU left since the Referendum. Most of those vacancies weren't filled. I wonder how many Covid deaths that caused?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Johnson and his cabal have the blood of tens of thousands on their hands


----------



## gosub (Mar 23, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> What majority are you talking about here?
> 
> The 17-odd million who voted for Brexit five years ago with no definition whatever as to what that Brexit might entail, in fact with strong words from the pro-brexit campaigners that exactly this kind of thing would not happen?
> 
> Or is it perhaps the 12-odd million who voted tory in the last election? They can be said to be more capable of knowing what they were voting for, but 12-odd million out of about 52 million adults is not in any sense a majority, either of the absolute numbers of people or even just from those who voted.


might as well abandon democracy all together then, its what the Remainers want.  Am I  getting the hang of how political discorse works now?


----------



## Maggot (Mar 23, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Leaving aside one month of trading figures - contingent on loads of factors and anyway indicating recovery within the month - can anyone point to one recent strategic, well argued, properly researched and proportionate argument advanced by Remain written in the last 12 months??


None of our new trade deals are better than the ones we had with the EU. They are either worse of the same.


----------



## andysays (Mar 23, 2021)

bimble said:


> That’s just bizarre to me, ‘sensible remain long departed the scene’ means anyone saying there are difficulties as a result of the brexit must be an extremist of some sort? Very odd.
> Whats ‘the scene’ anyway, any conversation about the brexit?


I think some (though not all) of those saying there are difficulties as a result of Brexit are attempting to argue that Brexit shouldn't have happened, and that those who voted for it are personally to blame for everything that has happened since that vote. You don't need to look very far back in this thread to find examples of that.

I voted Leave, and that doesn't prevent me from recognising that there are and will continue to be problems resulting from the implementation of Brexit, which isn't the same as saying let's call the whole thing off.

Anyone still arguing or attempting to argue a Remain case at this point is just making themselves look ridiculous, not that I expect my saying so will stop them...


----------



## brogdale (Mar 23, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Timely that you reference a secure position, because that’s the debate we need to be having.
> 
> Sensible remain long departed the scene, either for tactical reasons or simply because it recognised that the debate was over or even because a conclusion was reached by some that maybe they were on the wrong side.
> 
> ...


Maybe my conspiraloon antenna are letting me down, but I can't really say that I've noticed remain-type folk in here resorting to conspiracy theory. That's why I was surprised to see you casting them as TFH.

It seems to me that anyone persuaded by either side of the Brexit debate will tend to be prone to confirmation bias to some degree. Yeah, one month's data is obviously of limited value, but the objective fact that the FDF Jan YoY numbers are markedly worse than their comparable 2020 Q3 data is worthy of consideration.

From my perspective, the 'remainer' contention that they illustrate the sectoral harm caused by leaving the single market looks every bit as valid as 'leaver' faith that the numbers are a mere blip caused by other exogenous factors.

As to your last question:


> can anyone point to one recent strategic, well argued, properly researched and proportionate argument advanced by Remain written in the last 12 months??


I suppose it could be turned around and equally posed to those that support the UK's exit from the supra-state.? The problem I have here is that any vision or strategy of what a post-EU UK looks like appears indistinguishable from the present Government's vision.


----------



## Supine (Mar 23, 2021)

So people who voted remain can't offer any opinion on how things have turned out? Yay for urban democracy.


----------



## brogdale (Mar 23, 2021)

Supine said:


> So people who voted remain can't offer any opinion on how things have turned out? Yay for urban democracy.


I'm not seeing that on here, either tbh.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 23, 2021)

Supine said:


> So people who voted remain can't offer any opinion on how things have turned out? Yay for urban democracy.


This isn't a democracy

As I thought you might have noticed in the last 17 years


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Mar 23, 2021)

Supine said:


> So people who voted remain can't offer any opinion on how things have turned out? Yay for urban democracy.



The opposite. I’ve already asked for someone to post up well written and argued remainer perspectives written since March 2020.


----------



## Supine (Mar 23, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> The opposite. I’ve already asked for someone to post up well written and argued remainer perspectives written since March 2020.



You did tbf. But I'm not sure what you're expecting anyone to write. Us remainers lost and we need to deal with it, so I don't see what kind of remainer argument would be worth positioning anymore.

What we can do is point out problems as they occur due to the nature of the Brexit that has occurred. That doesn't warrant a load of leavers telling us to get over it and that we look ridiculous. Our opinions are valid.


----------



## muscovyduck (Mar 23, 2021)

Haven't people who voted remain been posting on this thread? I was one of them


----------



## 8ball (Mar 23, 2021)

Supine said:


> So people who voted remain can't offer any opinion on how things have turned out? Yay for urban democracy.



When did this urban democracy happen?  It’s always been the equivalent of Iran, but with the Ayatollah and Religious Police being marginally more benevolent than the public.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 23, 2021)

Supine said:


> You did tbf. But I'm not sure what you're expecting anyone to write. Us remainers lost and we need to deal with it, so I don't see what kind of remainer argument would be worth positioning anymore.
> 
> What we can do is point out problems as they occur due to the nature of the Brexit that has occurred. That doesn't warrant a load of leavers telling us to get over it and that we look ridiculous. Our opinions are valid.


I only wish they were


----------



## gosub (Mar 23, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> I only wish they were


tbf Some are. Others, well, its a spectrum like pretty much everthing else


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 23, 2021)

gosub said:


> tbf Some are. Others, well, its a spectrum like pretty much everthing else


Yeh only some are 16k spectrums and others are 48k


----------



## gosub (Mar 23, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Yeh only some are 16k spectrums and others are 48k



Don't knock the 16k Speccy, that was my first computer got it for my birthday (October) took loads of badgering to get the upgrade kit from Watford Electronics for the Xmas.  Looking back now I never wrote anything on it that used more than 16k and I spent far to long playing games once I had the 48k


----------



## Saul Goodman (Mar 23, 2021)

gosub said:


> Don't knock the 16k Speccy, that was my first computer got it for my birthday (October) took loads of badgering to get the upgrade kit from Watford Electronics for the Xmas.  Looking back now I never wrote anything on it that used more than 16k and I spent far to long playing games once I had the 48k


My first was a ZX81, with its wonderful membrane keyboard and a 16K RAM module that you had to velcro to the back, in case a fly farted 100 yards away and caused it to shake and crash.


----------



## TopCat (Mar 24, 2021)

'Festival of Brexit': 10 teams announced as part of divisive £120m project
					

A celebration of British weather and a grow-your-own food initiative will be among the festivities




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 24, 2021)

TopCat said:


> 'Festival of Brexit': 10 teams announced as part of divisive £120m project
> 
> 
> A celebration of British weather and a grow-your-own food initiative will be among the festivities
> ...


Let's see how much cold water the remoaners can pour on this before the day's out


----------



## brogdale (Mar 24, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Let's see how much cold water the remoaners can pour on this before the day's out


Anyone if favour of such hegemonic guff is obviously a complete cunt.


----------



## MickiQ (Mar 24, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Let's see how much cold water the remoaners can pour on this before the day's out


A celebration of British weather??  Seriously?? Anyone making a list of what they like about the UK and then putting the weather on the list needs confining for their own safety.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 24, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> A celebration of British weather??  Seriously?? Anyone making a list of what they like about the UK and then putting the weather on the list needs confining for their own safety.



“As do the Inuit, Mancunians have forty words for rain.”


----------



## TopCat (Mar 24, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> A celebration of British weather??  Seriously?? Anyone making a list of what they like about the UK and then putting the weather on the list needs confining for their own safety.


I miss England’s drizzle after three plus weeks of travelling. Plus Millwall losing.


----------



## kebabking (Mar 24, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> A celebration of British weather??  Seriously?? Anyone making a list of what they like about the UK and then putting the weather on the list needs confining for their own safety.



To be moderately serious, to many who have lived in countries where you can tell what the weather with be like on any given day four or five years into the future, the vaguries of the British climate are an absolute joy.

I'm currently sat outside, eating an ice cream while my children run around in t-shirts, in two days time it will snow. That is joyous.


----------



## mojo pixy (Mar 24, 2021)

As drought conditions around the world worsen due to global warming, we may slowly realign our cultural attitude towards the 100+ days per year that water is guaranteed to fall freely from the sky (assuming it continues to fall so freely in future)


----------



## Yossarian (Mar 24, 2021)

It definitely looks a lot less Brexity than I expected.











						The 10 teams | Festival UK* 2022
					

Following a three-month R&D programme and a rigorous assessment process, 10 creative teams have been selected to take their ground-breaking projects in




					www.festival2022.uk


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 24, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> A celebration of British weather??  Seriously?? Anyone making a list of what they like about the UK and then putting the weather on the list needs confining for their own safety.


You get a free Brexit kagool as a memento of the event.


----------



## Yossarian (Mar 24, 2021)

Is it too late to get an EU arts grant for this stuff?


----------



## Supine (Mar 24, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Let's see how much cold water the remoaners can pour on this before the day's out



Let's see how many left wing leavers can stomach supporting such bullshit


----------



## brogdale (Mar 24, 2021)

kebabking said:


> To be moderately serious, to many who have lived in countries where you can tell what the weather with be like on any given day four or five years into the future, the vaguries of the British climate are an absolute joy.
> 
> I'm currently sat outside, eating an ice cream while my children run around in t-shirts, in two days time it will snow. That is joyous.


Couldn't agree more.
That said, I don't need the vermin spaffing my taxes on a celebration 'to bring the country together' to convince me further.


----------



## bimble (Mar 24, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Let's see how much cold water the remoaners can pour on this before the day's out


I for one can’t wait, it’s going to be brilliant, a cornucopia of wonders, like the great exhibition of 1871 which I missed. I’m not going to say a word against anything Boris Johnson or his friends choose to do in the name of brexit cos that would make me ‘politically unmoored’. It’s going to be great I’m wondering what to wear.


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 24, 2021)

TopCat said:


> I miss England’s drizzle after three plus weeks of travelling. Plus Millwall losing.


During the late mid and summer here I pray for rain tbh. Never happens but it’s restored my faith in atheism .


----------



## Raheem (Mar 24, 2021)

"OK guys, we need a theme. Something people will talk about."


----------



## brogdale (Mar 24, 2021)

bimble said:


> It’s going to be great I’m wondering what to wear.


No-brainer.


----------



## two sheds (Mar 24, 2021)

Where's Nigel? Nigel must get involved. We want Nigel to star in the magnificent Festival of Brexit


----------



## Poot (Mar 24, 2021)

bimble said:


> I for one can’t wait, it’s going to be brilliant, a cornucopia of wonders, like the great exhibition of 1871 which I missed. I’m not going to say a word against anything Boris Johnson or his friends choose to do in the name of brexit cos that would make me ‘politically unmoored’. It’s going to be great I’m wondering what to wear.


Rictus grin?


----------



## bimble (Mar 24, 2021)

brogdale said:


> No-brainer.
> 
> View attachment 260099


Yeah I was thinking maybe along those lines, a frock inspired by the totally excellent brexit statue of May that some artist stuck up in Dover  a few years ago. Tasteful but stridently patriotic, like me.


----------



## Yossarian (Mar 24, 2021)

bimble said:


> It’s going to be great I’m wondering what to wear.


----------



## bimble (Mar 24, 2021)

I hope all those whinging whiskey exporters show up to the festival dressed appropriately and enjoy it wholeheartedly, else they’re politically unmoored.


----------



## brogdale (Mar 24, 2021)

(In semi-serious mode) I presume the vermin will attempt to disguise this Brexit Festival as something to do with celebrating the victory over Covid, revival of the economy, Global Britain's levelling up and building back better?

With all the visual highlights ready to be exploited in SM clips/PPBs when Johnson springs an early GE on the floundering Starmer.


----------



## ska invita (Mar 24, 2021)

The "Festival" is irrelevant


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 24, 2021)

ska invita said:


> The "Festival" is irrelevant


many hundreds of thousands of people will visit it to see how bloody awful it is


----------



## two sheds (Mar 24, 2021)

What else have we got to look forward to?


----------



## brogdale (Mar 24, 2021)

two sheds said:


> What else have we got to look forward to?


RF deaths


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 24, 2021)

Ted Heath's Fanfare for Europe festival in 1975 had a 'european' version of Opportunity Knocks to celebrate joining the EEC. I've edited a brief article from Guardian ( a paper not so much politically moored but becalmed) which is based on Foreign Office files.

The European Opportunity Knocks "will be an ideal vehicle to introduce 20 million viewers to Common Market artistes, as well as to educate them on the principles and ideas of the common market," explained Thames Televison The British entry would be the Don Bostock Youth Orchestra from a school in Liverpool. Apparently, the idea was ' Each country's act would be introduced by a politician or other personality who would stress the value of the enlarged EEC. Viewers in each country would then vote by post for their favourite act, with the winner given the "Common Market talent award". '

Peter Murphy, the consul-general in Hamburg, said Dieter Schwartzkopf of NDR television and his "entertainment director Vock" had seen two videotapes of Opportunity Knocks: "They were appalled at the quality of the show and the manner in which it was presented. He said that in fact words failed them. He said that he would be a laughing stock if he allowed such a show to be shown on German television. Therefore there was no question of participating, much as he regretted the lack of chance to use a programme such as this for political reasons." 

The Paris embassy reported that ORTF was also reluctant to get involved: "They expressed fears that ITV might be using this project as a device to get in on the lucrative European song contest formula which is the preserve of the BBC." 

The Rome embassy was no more encouraging: "In confidence the producer said RAI did not like Green's programme which they consider second rate and they could not consider letting one of their top artistes appear in it. It also clashes with the final of RAI's own top song contest, Canzonissima. 


"With just two months to go the matter was referred to the foreign secretary, Sir Alec Douglas Home, who appears to have insisted that a major diplomatic effort be made to rescue the programme.

After some serious pressure through the Quai D'Orsay - the French foreign ministry - ORTF agreed to take part, but the Germans would have nothing to do with it. The Italians agreed to participate, but only on a small scale. The Dutch, the Irish and the Belgians also said yes. The Danes and Luxembourgeois declined.

Even in the final days before recording, the French end of the enterprise took what the FO termed another "somewhat delicate turn". The French wanted their act to be introduced by a variety artist, Mme Mick Micheyl, who had been running her own TV talent programme. Green took against her, saying he had strong reservations about her English.

The FO were not that keen on her either. They wanted Leon Zitrone - the "French Robin Day" - who could put over an intelligent case for the EEC in excellent English. Green wasn't sure. His first choice was Yves Montand, or his wife, Simone Signoret, but after being told by the FO they were too leftwing he backed Zitrone. The French government leaned on ORTF but the message came back: "Mickey or nothing".

"This all sounds frightful," minuted one official in the margin of the file.

This was not the end of what one mandarin described as the "whole imbroglio". The Prince of Wales refused to present the talent award. Lord Mancroft had to do it himself. The FO vetoed Ode to Joy as the opening theme on the grounds that it was not then the official European anthem."

In case anyone is wondering there is no mention of who won it but  here is the line up








						"Opportunity Knocks" Fanfare for Europe (TV Episode 1973) - IMDb
					

"Opportunity Knocks" Fanfare for Europe (TV Episode 1973) cast and crew credits, including actors, actresses, directors, writers and more.




					www.imdb.com


----------



## ska invita (Mar 24, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Ted Heath's Fanfare for Europe festival in 1975 had a 'european' version of Opportunity Knocks to celebrate joining the EEC. I've edited a brief article from Guardian ( a paper not so much politically moored but becalmed) which is based on Foreign Office files.
> 
> The European Opportunity Knocks "will be an ideal vehicle to introduce 20 million viewers to Common Market artistes, as well as to educate them on the principles and ideas of the common market," explained Thames Televison The British entry would be the Don Bostock Youth Orchestra from a school in Liverpool. Apparently, the idea was ' Each country's act would be introduced by a politician or other personality who would stress the value of the enlarged EEC. Viewers in each country would then vote by post for their favourite act, with the winner given the "Common Market talent award". '
> 
> ...


also lest we forget


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 24, 2021)

two sheds said:


> What else have we got to look forward to?


the arrival of a delegation of penguins from south georgia and the british antarctic territory, who will astound london for two weeks and then depart for points south taking a first tranche of former people with them


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 24, 2021)

bimble said:


> I for one can’t wait, it’s going to be brilliant, a cornucopia of wonders, like the great exhibition of 1871 which I missed. I’m not going to say a word against anything Boris Johnson or his friends choose to do in the name of brexit cos that would make me ‘politically unmoored’. It’s going to be great I’m wondering what to wear.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 24, 2021)

sir bruce forsyth has stepped in to offer an anthem


----------



## planetgeli (Mar 24, 2021)

> That “wait and see” element is true for all the teams, including one led by the Leeds-based events studio Newsubstance, which is promising “a physical manifestation and celebration of the British weather and UK coastline” involving “a large-scale installation that addresses global questions, encourages playfulness, elicits joy and presents an experiment in change.”



This is just the reconstruction and reintegration of paedophile Fred Talbot and the ITV weather map isn't it?

British culture yah.


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 24, 2021)

bimble or this ?


----------



## seeformiles (Mar 24, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Ted Heath's Fanfare for Europe festival in 1975 had a 'european' version of Opportunity Knocks to celebrate joining the EEC. I've edited a brief article from Guardian ( a paper not so much politically moored but becalmed) which is based on Foreign Office files.
> 
> The European Opportunity Knocks "will be an ideal vehicle to introduce 20 million viewers to Common Market artistes, as well as to educate them on the principles and ideas of the common market," explained Thames Televison The British entry would be the Don Bostock Youth Orchestra from a school in Liverpool. Apparently, the idea was ' Each country's act would be introduced by a politician or other personality who would stress the value of the enlarged EEC. Viewers in each country would then vote by post for their favourite act, with the winner given the "Common Market talent award". '
> 
> ...



I remember watching this programme as it went out while visiting my grandmother in Germany. It was a shit version of TOTP but all the acts featured were German (despite UK and US acts riding high in the charts) and all seated in the audience - as can be seen in this embarrassing clip that warns us of the dangers of community clapping in 4/4 time that the Germans seem to love so much. They didn’t have a leg to stand on:


----------



## two sheds (Mar 24, 2021)

It should be a county-wide version of "It's a knockout" that'll get the patriotic juices flowing


----------



## brogdale (Mar 24, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> sir bruce forsyth has stepped in to offer an anthem



Ashamed to say that the 6 year old me happily wore the IBB badge.  

It was a cuntish campaign initiated by scabs, celebrating negative solidarity and exploited by cunts.



> _*I'm Backing Britain*_ was a brief patriotic campaign, which flourished in early 1968 and was aimed at boosting the British economy. The campaign started spontaneously when five Surbiton secretaries volunteered to work an extra half-hour each day without pay to boost productivity and urged others to do the same. The invitation received an enormous response and a campaign took off spectacularly; it became a nationwide movement within a week.


----------



## Yossarian (Mar 24, 2021)

Does the saying about history repeating itself first as tragedy, then as farce, hold true when it was a farce the first time around?

During the "Fanfare for Europe," a proto-Brexiteer chucked a stink bomb at Ted Heath but accidentally hit the Queen instead, to his chagrin. Also:



> A 1973 exhibition at the Whitechapel Gallery in east London, entitled "Sweets", was brought to an abrupt end on its final day when the display of European confectionary was devoured by schoolchildren who had overwhelmed a guard.











						Sweets and football: How the UK celebrated joining Europe
					

A look at the 11-day "Fanfare for Europe" that followed British entry into the EEC in 1973.



					www.bbc.com


----------



## bimble (Mar 24, 2021)

No way The39thStep i've seen the error of my ways, I'm going as Dover-Cliffs Theresa, it's the will of the people, and anyone who says that there's anything at all the matter with anything the gov decide to do that's in any way brexit-related, is a massive Loser. Go Boris, he Got Brexit Done, he's our man.


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 24, 2021)

bimble said:


> No way The39thStep i've seen the error of my ways, I'm going as Dover-Cliffs Theresa, it's the will of the people, and anyone who says that there's anything at all the matter with anything the gov decide to do that's in any way brexit-related, is a massive Loser. Go Boris, he Got Brexit Done, he's our man.


You'll have to post photo's of your costume, sounds divine.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 24, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Ashamed to say that the 6 year old me happily wore the IBB badge.
> 
> It was a cuntish campaign initiated by scabs, celebrating negative solidarity and exploited by cunts.


when i worked in a local authority archives there was an i'm backing britain sticker on the lockers more than 40 years later


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 24, 2021)

Not sure how she voted over Brexit though


----------



## brogdale (Mar 24, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> when i worked in a local authority archives there was an i'm backing britain sticker on the lockers more than 40 years later


Testimony to the Great British glue and sticker industries!


----------



## brogdale (Mar 24, 2021)

The badge I wore.


----------



## bimble (Mar 24, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> View attachment 260111
> 
> Not sure how she voted over Brexit though


No. Too cold and also politically unmoored. Union jacks is the new black.


----------



## brogdale (Mar 24, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> View attachment 260111
> 
> Not sure how she voted over Brexit though


Reminiscent of the _It's DD for me _2005 photoshoot for Davis' leadership campaign. (the images are out there)


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 24, 2021)

The Guardian front page after the referendum in 1975


----------



## brogdale (Mar 24, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> The Guardian front page after the referendum in 1975
> 
> View attachment 260114


67%:33% now that's what I call a (super) majority!


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 24, 2021)

brogdale said:


> 67%:33% now that's what I call a (super) majority!


Thought the interesting bit was urging Wilson to attack the left tbh


----------



## brogdale (Mar 24, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Thought the interesting bit was urging Wilson to attack the left tbh


plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 24, 2021)

brogdale said:


> 67%:33% now that's what I call a (super) majority!


17.4 million. 

Snap!


----------



## bimble (Mar 24, 2021)

brogdale said:


> 67%:33% now that's what I call a (super) majority!


Had no idea it was that clearcut back then. Very surprised tbh.


----------



## kebabking (Mar 24, 2021)

brogdale said:


> (In semi-serious mode) I presume the vermin will attempt to disguise this Brexit Festival as something to do with celebrating the victory over Covid, revival of the economy, Global Britain's levelling up and building back better?
> 
> With all the visual highlights ready to be exploited in SM clips/PPBs when Johnson springs an early GE on the floundering Starmer.



It, whatever it turns out to be, will doubtless be _awful, _attended only by a handful of Daily Express readers and the kind of loon who has a Union _flag _in their lounge. 99.6% of the population will ignore it entirely and get on with their lives - hopefully in the warm sun, with friends and family, with lots of ice cream and children screeching.


----------



## two sheds (Mar 24, 2021)

kebabking said:


> It, whatever it turns out to be, will doubtless be _awful, _attended only by a handful of Daily Express readers and the kind of loon who has a Union _flag _in their lounge. 99.6% of the population will ignore it entirely and get on with their lives - hopefully in the warm sun, with friends and family, with lots of ice cream and children screeching.


you're just unpatriotic


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 24, 2021)

brogdale said:


> plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose


le money est sur la table


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 24, 2021)

bimble said:


> Had no idea it was that clearcut back then. Very surprised tbh.


Amongst the press there was only The Spectator I think who came out against it.


----------



## rutabowa (Mar 24, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> Does the saying about history repeating itself first as tragedy, then as farce, hold true when it was a farce the first time around?
> 
> "A 1973 exhibition at the Whitechapel Gallery in east London, entitled "Sweets", was brought to an abrupt end on its final day when the display of European confectionary was devoured by schoolchildren who had overwhelmed a guard."


Those school kids would get 10 years for overwhelming the guard nowadays


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 24, 2021)

bimble should check the weather forecast before settling on an outfit.


----------



## bimble (Mar 24, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> bimble should check the weather forecast before settling on an outfit.


A true patriot is undeterred by the vagaries of the Great British weather.


----------



## andysays (Mar 24, 2021)

I've been growing (some of ) my own food for 20+ years, and I'm certainly in favour of more encouragement and help to enable more people to do so, but to make this a feature of Brexit celebrations is frankly ridiculous.


----------



## bimble (Mar 24, 2021)

andysays said:


> I've been growing (some of ) my own food for 20+ years, and I'm certainly in favour of more encouragement and help to enable more people to do so, but to make this a feature of Brexit celebrations is frankly ridiculous.


I think its very fitting, grow yr own food everyone is an obvious emblem of the new Global Britain, unleashed to trade freely with all nations.


----------



## andysays (Mar 24, 2021)

bimble said:


> I think its very fitting, grow yr own food everyone is an obvious emblem of the new Global Britain, unleashed to trade freely with all nations.


It's slightly reminiscent of Dig for Victory somehow. 

I wonder at what point they'll start issuing ration books...


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 24, 2021)

andysays said:


> It's slightly reminiscent of Dig for Victory somehow.
> 
> I wonder at what point they'll start issuing ration books...


What we need is a bury for victory campaign, in which first Tory peers and MPs and then Tory councillors and celebs are interred. Preferably dead but alive will do at a pinch. How this goes will guide the burying of the other former people in a later stage of the process


----------



## andysays (Mar 24, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> What we need is a bury for victory campaign, in which first Tory peers and MPs and then Tory councillors and celebs are interred. Preferably dead but alive will do at a pinch. How this goes will guide the burying of the other former people in a later stage of the process


I'm more than happy to volunteer for grave filling duties (get them to dig their own first though).


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 24, 2021)

andysays said:


> I'm more than happy to volunteer for grave filling duties (get them to dig their own first though).


Report for bulldozer training on Monday, don't forget to collect your wages


----------



## andysays (Mar 24, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Report for bulldozer training on Monday, don't forget to collect your wages


TBH, I was looking forward to doing it with a shovel the old fashioned way, but let's not quibble over details.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 24, 2021)

andysays said:


> TBH, I was looking forward to doing it with a shovel the old fashioned way, but let's not quibble over details.


No indeed


----------



## Yossarian (Mar 24, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> What we need is a bury for victory campaign, in which first Tory peers and MPs and then Tory councillors and celebs are interred. Preferably dead but alive will do at a pinch. How this goes will guide the burying of the other former people in a later stage of the process



Let's congratulate these great patriots as they commence their transition into becoming sacred British soil.


----------



## muscovyduck (Mar 24, 2021)

am about excited for the brexit festival as i get for royal wedding street parties


----------



## Maggot (Mar 24, 2021)

kebabking said:


> It, whatever it turns out to be, will doubtless be _awful, _attended only by a handful of Daily Express readers and the kind of loon who has a Union _flag _in their lounge. 99.6% of the population will ignore it entirely and get on with their lives - hopefully in the warm sun, with friends and family, with lots of ice cream and children screeching.


Did you read the article?


----------



## kebabking (Mar 24, 2021)

Maggot said:


> Did you read the article?



Christ no....


----------



## MrSki (Mar 24, 2021)




----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 24, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> Let's congratulate these great patriots as they commence their transition into becoming sacred British soil.


We have found new blood for our soil


----------



## gosub (Mar 24, 2021)

kebabking said:


> It, whatever it turns out to be, will doubtless be _awful, _attended only by a handful of Daily Express readers and the kind of loon who has a Union _flag _in their lounge. 99.6% of the population will ignore it entirely and get on with their lives - hopefully in the warm sun, with friends and family, with lots of ice cream and children screeching.



It doesn't to be if they SGP or Boomtown it type thingy. And lets face it not all of what was in that sector is going to come out the other side of a two year hiatus.


Though if it is a Daily Express appealing thingy, can we not cancel it , those things are dreadful.  Have a ballistic missile launch instead Daily Express readers would like that, though the number of missiles is even further from 260 than the number of war heads is.


----------



## gosub (Mar 24, 2021)

andysays said:


> I've been growing (some of ) my own food for 20+ years, and I'm certainly in favour of more encouragement and help to enable more people to do so, but to make this a feature of Brexit celebrations is frankly ridiculous.



More ridiculous than Tony Blackburn and a Womble in a speedboat?


----------



## bimble (Mar 25, 2021)

Brilliant news for British pigs.








						UK firm to stop using British pork after post-Brexit border problems
					

Helen Browning’s Organic says it is switching to Danish suppliers owing to bureaucracy, delays and costs




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 25, 2021)

bimble said:


> Brilliant news for British pigs.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



A win for our planet too, no longer will pigs be reared in the U.K., their meat sent to Germany for processing and the finished product sent back to the U.K. for consumption, we need to end more of this type of madness.


----------



## bimble (Mar 25, 2021)

Yes. Grow your own sausages ftw.


----------



## muscovyduck (Mar 25, 2021)

UK company by name only by the sounds of it


----------



## bimble (Mar 25, 2021)

The National Pig Association is politically unmoored.   


			http://www.npa-uk.org.uk/hres/NPA%20Eustice%20letter%20Jan%2021


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 25, 2021)

Looks like there’s another round of fun and games over vaccines in the offing.

France and Germany are sitting on a couple of million doses of undistributed AZ vaccine whilst screaming that AstraZeneca aren’t sending them enough of the stuff and threatening to block exports from the EU.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 25, 2021)

bimble said:


> Brilliant news for British pigs.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Why can’t they turn their pigs into sausages in the U.K?


----------



## bimble (Mar 25, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Why can’t they turn their pigs into sausages in the U.K?


Dont know. They're probably Remoaners.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 25, 2021)

bimble said:


> Dont know. They're probably Remoaners.


Or perhaps moaning Minnies.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 25, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Why can’t they turn their pigs into sausages in the U.K?



bimble’s article says no suitable factory in the U.K.

Calling chinny reckon on that, will be all about greed, as per.


----------



## TopCat (Mar 25, 2021)

andysays said:


> I've been growing (some of ) my own food for 20+ years, and I'm certainly in favour of more encouragement and help to enable more people to do so, but to make this a feature of Brexit celebrations is frankly ridiculous.


Have they not hinted some sort of new deal for growing vegetables will be enabled? Allotments or some such? Public space planting?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 25, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Looks like there’s another round of fun and games over vaccines in the offing.
> 
> France and Germany are sitting on a couple of million doses of undistributed AZ vaccine whilst screaming that AstraZeneca aren’t sending them enough of the stuff and threatening to block exports from the EU.



Italian plod raided a factory yesterday and seized millions of doses of AZ vaccine, thinking they were bound for the U.K., when in fact they were bound for the EU and Covax countries. Regardless though, this is how the EU is now carrying on, petty, ineffectual nonsense whilst their citizens are gasping for breath.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 25, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> bimble’s article says no suitable factory in the U.K.
> 
> Calling chinny reckon on that, will be all about greed, as per.


Yeah. Cos nobody makes sausages in the U.K.


----------



## TopCat (Mar 25, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Italian plod raided a factory yesterday and seized millions of doses of AZ vaccine, thinking they were bound for the U.K., when in fact they were bound fir the EU and Covax countries. Regardless though, this is how the EU is now carrying on, petty, ineffectual nonsense whilst their citizens are gasping for breath.


They do seem to have doubled down on both undermining the Astra zenica vaccine and chucking their arrogance about over restrictive exports. A gift for the tories.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 25, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Yeah. Cos nobody makes sausages in the U.K.



Just can’t be done on our simple island


----------



## bimble (Mar 25, 2021)

it’s interesting how the food producers in the UK are pleading with the gov to actually do the controls on imports as planned but gov’s not up for it, so EU pigs and everything can stroll in here no problem still for now. when are they going to start doing the delayed import checks have they said?


----------



## TopCat (Mar 25, 2021)

bimble said:


> it’s interesting how the food producers in the UK are pleading with the gov to actually do the controls on imports as planned but gov’s not up for it, so EU pigs and everything Can stroll in here no problem, when are they going to start doing the delayed important checks have they said?


Which food producers are pleading?


----------



## bimble (Mar 25, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Which food producers are pleading?


The pig farmers for instance.


----------



## Yossarian (Mar 25, 2021)

The industry says the current situation with border checks puts it at a massive disadvantage - it also complains that the stringent checks on UK exports to the EU seem to be politically motivated, with 30% of UK consignments to the EU checked compared to 1% for other third countries like New Zealand.

“While this delay is convenient for a Government that wants to ensure there are no empty shelves in supermarkets, UK producers are being placed at a huge disadvantage and we have absolutely no leverage to convince the EU to change their position. It is clear that the Commission wishes to make Brexit as painful and as messy as possible to prevent any other country from following suit, so we have very little hope of improving things."





__





						Brexit checks hitting pork exports hard and damaging the sector – NPA | Pig World
					

UK pork processors are experiencing significant issues in exporting products to the EU, which has already brought part of the industry to a complete standstill,




					www.pig-world.co.uk


----------



## bimble (Mar 25, 2021)

Government not wanting empty shelves makes sense obvs but it’s not very brexit is it, allowing cheap EU imports to dominate our breakfasts.


----------



## TopCat (Mar 25, 2021)

bimble said:


> Government not wanting empty shelves makes sense obvs but it’s not very brexit is it, allowing cheap EU imports to dominate our breakfasts.


It’s fine.


----------



## andysays (Mar 25, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> A win for our planet too, no longer will pigs be reared in the U.K., their meat sent to Germany for processing and the finished product sent back to the U.K. for consumption, we need to end more of this type of madness.





TopCat said:


> Have they not hinted some sort of new deal for growing vegetables will be enabled? Allotments or some such? Public space planting?


No idea, I'm only going on what's been posted on this thread.

I do know that demand for allotments and other growing spaces is ridiculously high all around London. Don't imagine it's much better in other large cities.

ETA sorry bahnhof, didn't mean to quote you too.


----------



## andysays (Mar 25, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Yeah. Cos nobody makes sausages in the U.K.


It's the old "no trained staff" thing again, isn't it...


----------



## mojo pixy (Mar 25, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Why can’t they turn their pigs into sausages in the U.K?



Whatever the reason, I doubt this is the last we've heard from Helen Browning. She's gentry .. ancestral farm, senior member of the National Trust and Soil Association, Deputy Lieutenant of Wiltshire. And an OBE of course.

Wonder how she got a free newspaper advert newspaper article to promote her endeavours outline problems with brexit eh?

I suspect the 'lack of suitable manufacturer in the UK' really means, _no sausage manufacturer in the UK will let us keep our own branding_. But I'm not feeling charitable.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 25, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> The industry says the current situation with border checks puts it at a massive disadvantage - it also complains that the stringent checks on UK exports to the EU seem to be politically motivated, with 30% of UK consignments to the EU checked compared to 1% for other third countries like New Zealand.
> 
> “While this delay is convenient for a Government that wants to ensure there are no empty shelves in supermarkets, UK producers are being placed at a huge disadvantage and we have absolutely no leverage to convince the EU to change their position. It is clear that the Commission wishes to make Brexit as painful and as messy as possible to prevent any other country from following suit, so we have very little hope of improving things."
> 
> ...



This was always going to be the case though. The EU were never going to let the UK slip away without a fight, _pour encourager les autres._ It's a large part of why the 'give it time' argument that remoaners pour so much scorn upon, is actually extremely relevant. These things will reduce as everyone gets to realise that this is a done deal and it's in everyone's best interests to just get on.


----------



## krtek a houby (Mar 25, 2021)

bimble said:


> Government not wanting empty shelves makes sense obvs but it’s not very brexit is it, allowing cheap EU imports to dominate our breakfasts.



Who knows, maybe the FEUB will become a thing


----------



## Yossarian (Mar 25, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> This was always going to be the case though. The EU were never going to let the UK slip away without a fight _pour encourager les autres._ It's a large part of why the 'give it time' argument that remoaners pour so much scorn opon, is actually extremely revelvant. These things will reduce as everyone gets to realise that this is a done deal and it's in everyone's best interests to just get on.



That seems to be what Helen Browning's is betting on by declining to invest in a UK factory - might be time for the British farmers caught in the middle to act more like their French counterparts and dump tons of manure outside Downing Street.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 25, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> That seems to be what Helen Browning's is betting on by declining to invest in a UK factory - might be time for the British farmers caught in the middle to act more like their French counterparts and dump tons of manure outside Downing Street.


Or even better, a few pounds inside


----------



## bimble (Mar 25, 2021)

TopCat said:


> It’s fine.


I agree it’s all fine. If Boris Johnson doesn’t want to impose checks on imports from the EU then neither do I. Those pig farmers whinging on about this making foreign pork too cheap need to stop it and be happy. Diversify.


----------



## spitfire (Mar 25, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Why can’t they turn their pigs into sausages in the U.K?



After a quick look at their website it would appear that the hot dogs are made like bockwurst so the Bavarian factory would be set up for massive smoke rooms unlike any that I know of here. We smoke lots of fish but not so much sausages (on an industrial basis).

For example:


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 25, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> That seems to be what Helen Browning's is betting on by declining to invest in a UK factory - might be time for the British farmers caught in the middle to act more like their French counterparts and dump tons of manure outside Downing Street.




If there were a streaming pile of shit outside Downing St folk would assume Johnson's come out to make a speech or something.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 25, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> If there were a streaming pile of shit outside Downing St folk would assume Johnson's come out to make a speech or something.


They should get a delegation in to see BJ and then shit on the cabinet table, a few pounds inside should do more than a ton outside


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 25, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> This was always going to be the case though. The EU were never going to let the UK slip away without a fight, _pour encourager les autres._ It's a large part of why the 'give it time' argument that remoaners pour so much scorn upon, is actually extremely relevant. These things will reduce as everyone gets to realise that this is a done deal and it's in everyone's best interests to just get on.


Probably easier and less fuss  to leave the British Empire tbh


----------



## Artaxerxes (Mar 25, 2021)

Cuts ahoy for scientists.







bimble said:


> Yes. Grow your own sausages ftw.



Long pig Fridays


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 25, 2021)

TopCat said:


> They do seem to have doubled down on both undermining the Astra zenica vaccine and chucking their arrogance about over restrictive exports. A gift for the tories.


According to the news on TV in Portugal whilst all member states back the EU in trying to pursue promised vaccine delivery numbers and dates some states including Portugal have fallen short, at this stage at least, on endorsing EU threats to block exports.


----------



## MickiQ (Mar 25, 2021)

bimble said:


> it’s interesting how the food producers in the UK are pleading with the gov to actually do the controls on imports as planned but gov’s not up for it, so EU pigs and everything can stroll in here no problem still for now. when are they going to start doing the delayed import checks have they said?


The EU pigs can't stroll into the UK after they've already been converted into sausages, need a van to shift them.
This Helen Browning character seems to be something of a  sausage 'value adder' rather than a sausage producer someone raises the pigs she buys to send to Germany to have someone else turn into sausages that she sells with her label on. 
I'm firmly in the Brexit is the dumbest idea ever camp but I find it hard to believe it's all that difficult to set up her own sausage factory.


----------



## planetgeli (Mar 25, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Cuts ahoy for scientists.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Yeah you can add mental health budgets to that too. Lots of mental health is funded by the ESF. My job for example. Which I will lose next February. You know, when it's all settled down and will be fine.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 25, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Looks like there’s another round of fun and games over vaccines in the offing.
> 
> France and Germany are sitting on a couple of million doses of undistributed AZ vaccine whilst screaming that AstraZeneca aren’t sending them enough of the stuff and threatening to block exports from the EU.



It seems the Dutch have been massive dickheads too:



> France and Germany have used only about half of the AstraZeneca jabs they have received, according to the European Centre for Disease Prevention and Control (ECDC).
> 
> As of 22 March, France has distributed 1.4 million out of 2.7 million doses available, while Germany received 3.4 million but has used only 1.8 million. The Netherlands has used only 38% of its supply.











						Covid vaccine: Why did EU take AstraZeneca to court?
					

The EU has lost a legal battle over its attempt to force AstraZeneca to deliver more vaccines to the bloc.



					www.bbc.co.uk
				




And this is whilst their infection rates are spiralling again and people are dying in droves.

But hey, importing stuff from Germany costs a few quid more, Brits who never wanted to before now find it more difficult to live or work in the EU, wealthy pig farmers are fucked, and musician's tours are a bit more complicated. Them's the main things.


----------



## xenon (Mar 25, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Or even better, a few pounds inside



there’s already a few pounds inside...


----------



## Supine (Mar 25, 2021)

Thanks to Brexit navigation will become more dangerous after June!









						Shapps confirms no LPV approaches after June : FLYER
					






					www.flyer.co.uk


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 25, 2021)

xenon said:


> there’s already a few pounds inside...


downing street has become the stinking midden of england


----------



## spitfire (Mar 25, 2021)

Setting up a sausage factory is "easy". Big room, pork comes in one end, sausages out the other. Lots of expensive stainless steel in the middle and you have to keep the big room cold. Lots of people do it here as everyone rightly says.

Smokeries, at scale, not so much. You have to do all that and then build a smokehouse. Smokers are hugely expensive, the extraction and scrubbing systems are also eye wateringly expensive.

The German factory will receive her pork, spice it, put it in the skins, smoke it and (probably) pack it as well. It will be supplying the spices etc. at their economies of scale, which will be enormous compared to her little farm operation.

Traceability means her farm probably does supply all the Free Range pork if she says so on the packet, if she doesn't supply all the pork then it will be Free Range, if it says it on the packet. (Obviously there are times when people do not follow these rules but I'm working off assumptions that everything is above board).

I note that she doesn't sell any other smoked products on her website, all her bacon is unsmoked so she does not have a smokery and I would venture a guess that everything else is either manufactured with a partner in the UK or on site. (not sure what happens with the chorizo she makes so I'll conveniently ignore that).

I just want to point out it isn't as simple as her not wanting to spend any money locally or just smash out a sausage factory over the weekend. It's an enormous investment, probably a couple of million.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 25, 2021)

spitfire said:


> Setting up a sausage factory is "easy". Big room, pork comes in one end, sausages out the other. Lots of expensive stainless steel in the middle and you have to keep the big room cold. Lots of people do it here as everyone rightly says.
> 
> Smokeries, at scale, not so much. You have to do all that and then build a smokehouse. Smokers are hugely expensive, the extraction and scrubbing systems are also eye wateringly expensive.
> 
> ...



So this could well be the beginning of a brand new sausage smoking industry in the UK.

#benefitsofbrexit


----------



## spitfire (Mar 25, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> So this could well be the beginning of a brand new sausage smoking industry in the UK.
> 
> #benefitsofbrexit



Get on it mate, You've spied an opening there!


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 25, 2021)

spitfire said:


> Get on it mate, You've spied an opening there!



My new vocation. Smoking sausage.


----------



## gosub (Mar 25, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> Who knows, maybe the FEUB will become a thing



I'm not a fussy eater, but if the baked beans end up touching the croissant I won't be happy


----------



## brogdale (Mar 25, 2021)

spitfire said:


> Get on it mate, You've spied an opening there!


I've seen wurst ideas.


----------



## Raheem (Mar 25, 2021)

brogdale said:


> I've seen wurst ideas.


Please salami to congratulate you on your sausage joke.


----------



## andysays (Mar 25, 2021)

Looks like this thread will be pepperamied with sausage puns for the rest of the morning...


----------



## sleaterkinney (Mar 25, 2021)

Supine said:


> Thanks to Brexit navigation will become more dangerous after June!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Taking back control of the aircraft!


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 25, 2021)

sleaterkinney said:


> Taking back control of the aircraft!


johnson beating impotently on the door of the cabin, gnashing his teeth as the 'plane glides on south over the pacific


----------



## tendril (Mar 25, 2021)

BobDavis said:


> The op needs to let brexit go


Personally I agree with the OP. I will never let this go. I will never forget.  And I will never forgive the 54% for what they have done. For me there is no moving on.


----------



## tendril (Mar 25, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Putting vaccine into people's arms is political.


And this government has made it ultra political by ignoring manufacturers recommendations for time between doses so they can crow that they have vaccinated more people. 

This isn't being challenged nearly enough by the media. They are still running the story that we'll all be vaccinated by summer when the truth is it will be much much later when we are fully vaccinated with our second dose.

With the potential introduction of vaccine certificates to visit the pub this mess is likely to get worse as people who believe they are fully protected,  but are not, mingle and propagate the disease further.


----------



## tendril (Mar 25, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> petty, ineffectual nonsense whilst their citizens are gasping for breath.


Sounds just like our government's response.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 25, 2021)

tendril said:


> Sounds just like our government's response.


our government on a good day


----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 25, 2021)

tendril said:


> And this government has made it ultra political by ignoring manufacturers recommendations for time between doses so they can crow that they have vaccinated more people.
> 
> This isn't being challenged nearly enough by the media. They are still running the story that we'll all be vaccinated by summer when the truth is it will be much much later when we are fully vaccinated with our second dose.
> 
> With the potential introduction of vaccine certificates to visit the pub this mess is likely to get worse as people who believe they are fully protected,  but are not, mingle and propagate the disease further.



Actually a study by Astrazeneca resulted in the recommendation of a delay between doses, and the WHO has recommended the same since early Feb. [LINK], there's no scientific reason why the pfizer vaccine will not be just as safe with the same delay, it's already proven that both vaccines maintain a high level of protection for those 12 weeks, with the second doses adding a fairly minimal extra level protection, but likely to extend the length of protection over time.

UK scientists got it right, and for once the government accepted their advice, saving thousands of lives.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 25, 2021)

tendril said:


> This isn't being challenged nearly enough by the media. They are still running the story that we'll all be vaccinated by summer when the truth is it will be much much later when we are fully vaccinated with our second dose.



Currently 'the science' is telling us that a single shot (of AZ, at least) gives 100% protection against death and very serious illness from C19. The second dose is for long term protection. It therefore seems sensible to give as many people the first dose as quickly as possible


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 25, 2021)

tendril said:


> And this government has made it ultra political by ignoring manufacturers recommendations for time between doses so they can crow that they have vaccinated more people.
> 
> This isn't being challenged nearly enough by the media. They are still running the story that we'll all be vaccinated by summer when the truth is it will be much much later when we are fully vaccinated with our second dose.
> 
> With the potential introduction of vaccine certificates to visit the pub this mess is likely to get worse as people who believe they are fully protected,  but are not, mingle and propagate the disease further.



It has been shown that one dose is very nearly as good as two, so the policy of getting that first dose in to as many arms as possible is definitely the best one. For all their myriad fuck ups with this pandemic, the vaccination programme really is not one, it is by any measure a massive success.


----------



## tendril (Mar 25, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Currently 'the science' is telling us that a single shot (of AZ, at least) gives 100% protection against death and very serious illness from C19. The second dose is for long term protection. It therefore seems sensible to give as many people the first dose as quickly as possible


Yes, it is providing protection against serious illness. It is not 100% stopping transmission.  Transmission leads to new variants, which the current vaccines may not be as effective against.


----------



## prunus (Mar 25, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> *Currently 'the science' is telling us that a single shot (of AZ, at least) gives 100% protection against death and very serious illness from C19*. The second dose is for long term protection. It therefore seems sensible to give as many people the first dose as quickly as possible



I have missed that - can you point me at it please, that’s important. Thanks.


----------



## TopCat (Mar 25, 2021)

tendril said:


> Yes, it is providing protection against serious illness. It is not 100% stopping transmission.  Transmission leads to new variants, which the current vaccines may not be as effective against.


Would you rather be waiting (forlornly) in some part of the EU for your vaccine then?


----------



## tendril (Mar 25, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> It has been shown that one dose is very nearly as good as two, so the policy of getting that first dose in to as many arms as possible is definitely the best one. For all their myriad fuck ups with this pandemic, the vaccination programme really is not one, it is by any measure a massive success.


The vaccines success is despite the government,  not because of it.


----------



## tendril (Mar 25, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Would you rather be waiting (forlornly) in some part of the EU for your vaccine then?


I'm not gonna do whataboutary


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 25, 2021)

prunus said:


> I have missed that - can you point me at it please, that’s important. Thanks.



Dozens of articles if you Google 'AstraZeneca 100%' but start here COVID-19 Vaccine AstraZeneca confirms 100% protection against severe disease, hospitalisation and death in the primary analysis of Phase III trials


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 25, 2021)

tendril said:


> Yes, it is providing protection against serious illness. It is not 100% stopping transmission.  Transmission leads to new variants, which the current vaccines may not be as effective against.


So don't give at to as many people as possible as quickly as possible?


----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 25, 2021)

tendril said:


> Yes, it is providing protection against serious illness. It is not 100% stopping transmission.  Transmission leads to new variants, which the current vaccines may not be as effective against.



No vaccine, so far, stops 100% of all infection nor transmission, be that under one or two doses. 

I would stop digging, if I were you.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 25, 2021)

cupid_stunt said:


> I would stop digging, if I were you.



I've a feeling that might not happen


----------



## editor (Mar 25, 2021)

tendril said:


> I'm not gonna do whataboutary


Indeed. 









						Vaccine approval isn’t quicker because of Brexit - Full Fact
					

The MHRA could have given the Pfizer vaccine the same emergency approval when the UK was in the EU.




					fullfact.org
				











						Why the EU’s vaccine disaster doesn’t prove Brexit was right
					

The UK’s vaccine success does not compensate for its catastrophic handling of the pandemic or the cost of leaving the EU.




					www.newstatesman.com
				











						UK vaccine approval: Did Brexit speed up the process?
					

There have been claims that Brexit allowed the UK to approve a vaccine quicker than the EU, but is that correct?



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## tendril (Mar 25, 2021)

cupid_stunt said:


> and for once the government accepted their advice


It must be of great comfort to the families of the 130k people who have died that the government has finally put on its big boy pants and decided to listen to the experts.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 25, 2021)




----------



## tendril (Mar 25, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> I've a feeling that might not happen


Not until I reach the other side


----------



## sleaterkinney (Mar 25, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Dozens of articles if you Google 'AstraZeneca 100%' but start here COVID-19 Vaccine AstraZeneca confirms 100% protection against severe disease, hospitalisation and death in the primary analysis of Phase III trials


That's not what it says:




> Results demonstrated vaccine efficacy of 76% (CI: 59% to 86%) after a first dose,


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 25, 2021)

tendril said:


> It must be of great comfort to the families of the 130k people who have died that the government has finally put on its big boy pants and decided to listen to the experts.


it's rather more than that, 148,125 with c19 on the death cert


----------



## tendril (Mar 25, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> it's rather more than that, 148,125 with c19 on the death cert


I was being conservative.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 25, 2021)

tendril said:


> The vaccines success is despite the government,  not because of it.




Of course, silly me, for a moment I forgot the rules:  _any positive outcome would have happened anyway, any negative thing is Brexit's fault._
Will try harder next time.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 25, 2021)

sleaterkinney said:


> That's not what it says:


Read it properly. The headline's a pretty hefty hint.

The 76% is against contracting the virus at all. The 100% is against hospitalisation/death.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 25, 2021)

editor said:


> Indeed.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Jesus, not those links again, the last time you posted them, you had plenty of replies pointing out that much of what they claim was cobblers, yet you ignored those reasoned replies, and now you inject those same links again.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 25, 2021)

cupid_stunt said:


> Jesus, not those links again, the last time you posted them, you had plenty of replies pointing out that much of what they claim was cobblers, yet you ignored those reasoned replies, and now you inject those links again.




It's desperate stuff.


----------



## bimble (Mar 25, 2021)

Oh good this again it’s one of the best songs on the album.


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 25, 2021)

tendril said:


> The vaccines success is despite the government,  not because of it.


It's always tempting to think that, especially with a Tory government. However, it's not true both the UK and USA went in very quickly with contracts for vaccines. Unfortunately, the EU didn't. Don't get me wrong I'm against the first come first served principle, I reject totally the idea of a patent for the private sector on vaccine production and think that a purely private sector driven vaccine production is inefficient, promises a lot but under delivers. However in the world that we live in the UK government despite being Tories got it right. for the UK. Buy early, buy big and get it distributed asap.


----------



## prunus (Mar 25, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Dozens of articles if you Google 'AstraZeneca 100%' but start here COVID-19 Vaccine AstraZeneca confirms 100% protection against severe disease, hospitalisation and death in the primary analysis of Phase III trials



Thanks; not quite what I’d hoped unfortunately; the clinical trials all involved 2 dosing, so although there were no serious illnesses t+22 days, there wasn’t much of a window to examine single dose protection before the 2nd doses were given.

The AZ jab was originally intended to be a single dose (like the J&J) so it would be interesting if they’d found it would have/does in fact work like that.  The eventual 2 dose regime was settled on as a bit of belt and braces because they weren’t seeing strong ‘enough’ immune responses in all participants (I think - memory is fuzzy); NB measured immune response is not the same as protection level.


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 25, 2021)

bimble said:


> Oh good this again it’s one of the best songs on the album.


Is there a remix of Politically Unmoored  or  Tin Foil Army  yet ?


----------



## sleaterkinney (Mar 25, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Read it properly. The headline's a pretty hefty hint.
> 
> The 76% is against contracting the virus at all. The 100% is against hospitalisation/death.


It's improved from the earlier UK study then:









						Oxford-AstraZeneca COVID-19 Vaccine: New Study Results, Variant Coverage Update, Where Do We Stand? - Infectious Disease Advisor
					

The Oxford-AstraZeneca COVID-19 vaccine, ChAdOx1, is promising, effective against variant B.1.1.7, but minimally protective against variant B.1.351.




					www.infectiousdiseaseadvisor.com
				





> Serious adverse events were observed among 79 participants in the vaccine group and 89 participants in the control group. Serious events determined to be possibly related with ChAdOx1 included hemolytic anemia, transverse myelitis, and fever over 40°C.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 25, 2021)

prunus said:


> Thanks; not quite what I’d hoped unfortunately; the clinical trials all involved 2 dosing, so although there were no serious illnesses t+22 days, there wasn’t much of a window to examine single dose protection before the 2nd doses were given.
> 
> The AZ jab was originally intended to be a single dose (like the J&J) so it would be interesting if they’d found it would have/does in fact work like that.  The eventual 2 dose regime was settled on as a bit of belt and braces because they weren’t seeing strong ‘enough’ immune responses in all participants (I think - memory is fuzzy); NB measured immune response is not the same as protection level.


Yes, you're right. Unknown long term regarding the 2nd dose but it still makes perfect sense to get as many first doses done as quickly as possible. The comments on The Lancet piece also point out some of the vagaries of the trials.


----------



## tendril (Mar 25, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> It's always tempting to think that, especially with a Tory government. However, it's not true both the UK and USA went in very quickly with contracts for vaccines. Unfortunately, the EU didn't. Don't get me wrong I'm against the first come first served principle, I reject totally the idea of a patent for the private sector on vaccine production and think that a purely private sector driven vaccine production is inefficient, promises a lot but under delivers. However in the world that we live in the UK government despite being Tories got it right. for the UK. Buy early, buy big and get it distributed asap.


They will still get no credit from me. Just because they finally did the right thing doesn't excuse the multitude of fuckups that resulted in so many needless deaths.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 25, 2021)

sleaterkinney said:


> It's improved from the earlier UK study then



Good


----------



## kebabking (Mar 25, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Is there a remix of Politically Unmoored  or  Tin Foil Army  yet ?



No, the original did fairly well for a few years, but then it dawned on people that the promotors were a bunch of massive twats - I think there's a few diehard followers about, but they don't have the skill required to produce a remix.


----------



## editor (Mar 25, 2021)

cupid_stunt said:


> Jesus, not those links again, the last time you posted them, you had plenty of replies pointing out that much of what they claim was cobblers, yet you ignored those reasoned replies, and now you inject those same links again.


The government took a gamble with the vaccines and got lucky. It has very little to Brexit no matter how much you want it to be true.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 25, 2021)

editor said:


> The government took a gamble with the vaccines and got lucky. It has very little to Brexit no mayter how much you want it to be true.



Cobblers, now go back & read the replies you got the last time you posted those links, back on page 3.

Treat them as standing orders, read them & understand them!


----------



## editor (Mar 25, 2021)

cupid_stunt said:


> Cobblers, now go back & read the replies you got the last time you posted those links, back on page 3.
> 
> Treat them as standing orders, read them & understand them!


I know Brexit fans are desperate to claim any kind of success from this ongoing, disastrous clusterfuck - even if that includes things that weren't even mentioned or thought of at the time of the referendum -  but I'm happy with the links I posted up, thanks.


----------



## brogdale (Mar 25, 2021)

editor said:


> The government took a gamble with the vaccines and got lucky. It has very little to Brexit no matter how much you want it to be true.


I'm not convinced this was down to chance; I'm prepared to accept that our venal, corrupt, esurient 'leaders' are actually better suited to neoliberal gaming than the EU bureaucrats.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 25, 2021)

editor said:


> The government took a gamble with the vaccines and got lucky. It has very little to Brexit no matter how much you want it to be true.





Bahnhof Strasse said:


> _any positive outcome would have happened anyway, any negative thing is Brexit's fault._


----------



## editor (Mar 25, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> =


Putting the vaccination issue to one side, tell me all the positive things that have come out of Brexit so far.  Thanks.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 25, 2021)

editor said:


> I know Brexit fans are desperate to claim any kind of success from this ongoing, disastrous clusterfuck - even if that includes things that weren't even mentioned or thought of at the time of the referendum -  *but I'm happy with the links I posted up, thanks.*



Translation - I'm happy to conflate vaccine procurement and regulatory approval as it fits my agenda, and to totally ignore any reasoned arguments, because they don't.

Jolly good, have a peanut.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 25, 2021)

editor said:


> Putting the vaccination issue to one side, tell me all the positive things that have come out of Brexit so far.  Thanks.



Fuck sakes, this question has been been asked and answered repeatedly on this very thread, but as per the rules any positive outcome must be dismissed of course.


----------



## editor (Mar 25, 2021)

cupid_stunt said:


> Translation - I'm happy to conflate vaccine procurement and regulatory approval as it fits my agenda, and to totally ignore any reasoned arguments, because they don't.
> 
> Jolly good, have a peanut.


Keep on spinning, chum. 

Oh, and I'll ask you the same question:  Putting the vaccination issue to one side, tell me all the positive things that have come out of Brexit so far.


----------



## brogdale (Mar 25, 2021)

editor said:


> Keep on spinning, chum.
> 
> Oh, and I'll ask you the same question:  Putting the vaccination issue to one side, tell me all the positive things that have come out of Brexit so far.


Patel can't off-load "illegal" asylum seekers to other EU countries through which they've passed as the UK is no longer part of the Dublin agreement.


----------



## andysays (Mar 25, 2021)

editor said:


> Keep on spinning, chum.
> 
> Oh, and I'll ask you the same question:  Putting the vaccination issue to one side, tell me all the positive things that have come out of Brexit so far.


It's certainly led to some friendly and good humoured discussions between people with different opinions here, hasn't it...


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 25, 2021)

And let’s not put the vaccine issue aside, you keep claiming it isn’t Brexit related and keep trying to back that claim up by conflating it with vaccine approvals, yet my friend Varnia still can not see her mum cos the over 80’s in Portugal are still waiting for a jab, but I will have mine on Monday, aged 48. My step-mum’s aunt is still dead cos she lived in Holland and not the U.K.


----------



## editor (Mar 25, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Patel can't off-load "illegal" asylum seekers to other EU countries through which they've passed as the UK is no longer part of the Dublin agreement.


So are things getting better for asylum seekers coming to the UK as a result of Brexit then? And are they going to keep on getting better and if so, how?


----------



## Raheem (Mar 25, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Patel can't off-load "illegal" asylum seekers to other EU countries through which they've passed as the UK is no longer part of the Dublin agreement.


In practice, I don't think she could do that before, could she?


----------



## editor (Mar 25, 2021)

andysays said:


> It's certainly led to some interesting and good humoured discussions here, hasn't it...


Certainly been no shortage of comically clueless people offering opinions on how my career as a musician hasn't supposedly been negatively impacted, or hoe touring the US is somehow comparable to playing Europe.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 25, 2021)

editor said:


> Certainly been no shortage of comically clueless people offering opinions on how my career as a musician hasn't supposedly been negatively impacted, or hoe touring the US is somehow comparable to playing Europe.


you do keep bringing it up tho. and touring the us is comparable to - but not equivalent with - playing europe.


----------



## pseudonarcissus (Mar 25, 2021)

editor said:


> Keep on spinning, chum.
> 
> Oh, and I'll ask you the same question:  Putting the vaccination issue to one side, tell me all the positive things that have come out of Brexit so far.


the fish! the fish are happier.
fewer HGVs grinding their way to Holyhead
Farage isn't on the telly _every_ night
refugees who are fortunate enough to make not to Kent definitely won't get shipped back to France
Union Jack sales are up a huge amount
need I go on...?


----------



## brogdale (Mar 25, 2021)

editor said:


> So are things getting better for asylum seekers coming to the UK as a result of Brexit then? And are they going to keep on getting better and if so, how?


No & no, I expect...but you did ask for any one thing....


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 25, 2021)

brogdale said:


> No & no, I expect...but you did ask for any one thing....



Tbf he asked for ALL things, the greedy so and so.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 25, 2021)

pseudonarcissus said:


> the fish! the fish are happier.
> fewer HGVs grinding their way to Holyhead
> Farage isn't on the telly _every_ night
> refugees who are fortunate enough to make not to Kent definitely won't get shipped back to France
> ...


and my tiny violins are shifting in numbers never previously known


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 25, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Tbf he asked for ALL things, the greedy so and so.


an icelandic parliament, i believe


----------



## kebabking (Mar 25, 2021)

brogdale said:


> I'm not convinced this was down to chance; I'm prepared to accept that our venal, corrupt, esurient 'leaders' are actually better suited to neoliberal gaming than the EU bureaucrats.



I think I'd put it a different way - at its heart, the EU structures (and those attracted to work in them) are technocratic, legalistic beasts whose _raison d'etre _is the management of trade treaties.

Nation states within the EU honking off about the EU's inability to do quick response was a thing long before Dear Nigel ever coined the term _Brexit. _many of the member states were as quick off the mark as the UK government when it came to vaccines (and were certainly quicker when it came to hoovering up PPE): the problem they had is not (or not necessarily) deciding to club together to buy huge amounts of vaccine for a continent without (broadly) internal borders, their problem was putting in the hands of a legalistic structure who's _gut reaction _is rules and process.

They were faced with a crisis, a really frightening crisis, and - like most of us - they reverted to type. In Johnson's case it was the freewheeling shitshow, but in UVDL's case it was making huge political statements and ignoring the mechanisms to bring it about, and then (as she did in at least two government departments in Germany) arguing over money and then flailing about trying to find someone else to take the blame.

With Johnson the shitshow brought us the death toll, but the freewheeling brought us the vaccine.


----------



## brogdale (Mar 25, 2021)

kebabking said:


> I think I'd put it a different way - at its heart, the EU structures (and those attracted to work in them) are technocratic, legalistic beasts whose _raison d'etre _is the management of trade treaties.
> 
> Nation states within the EU honking off about the EU's inability to do quick response was a thing long before Dear Nigel ever coined the term _Brexit. _many of the member states were as quick off the mark as the UK government when it came to vaccines (and were certainly quicker when it came to hoovering up PPE): the problem they had is not (or not necessarily) deciding to club together to buy huge amounts of vaccine for a continent without (broadly) internal borders, their problem was putting in the hands of a legalistic structure who's _gut reaction _is rules and process.
> 
> ...


All good points, well made.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 25, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> And let’s not put the vaccine issue aside ...


No no no.

You have to put all obvious positive's of Brexit to one side. Then you have to agree that all of the things that _you_ see as positives, aren't actually positives at all, and put those to one side too.

That's how this game works


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 25, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> No no no.
> 
> You have to put all obvious positive's of Brexit to one side. Then you have to agree that all of the things that _you_ see as positives, aren't actually positives at all, and put those to one side too.
> 
> That's how this game works



Tbf my step-mum’s aunt’s scratching was very mediocre, so a discount DJ mixer would have been wasted on her anyway.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 25, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> No no no.
> 
> You have to put all obvious positive's of Brexit to one side. Then you have to agree that all of the things that _you_ see as positives, aren't actually positives at all, and put those to one side too.
> 
> That's how this game works


i think you're using the superseded fifth edition rules.


----------



## gosub (Mar 25, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Yes, you're right. Unknown long term regarding the 2nd dose but it still makes perfect sense to get as many first doses done as quickly as possible. The comments on The Lancet piece also point out some of the vagaries of the trials.



Not if leads to shortages that impact on those awaiting 2nd dose


----------



## Saul Goodman (Mar 25, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> No no no.
> 
> You have to put all obvious positive's of Brexit to one side. Then you have to agree that all of the things that _you_ see as positives, aren't actually positives at all, and put those to one side too.
> 
> That's how this game works


----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 25, 2021)

gosub said:


> Not if leads to shortages that impact on those awaiting 2nd dose



That's not going to happen.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 25, 2021)

gosub said:


> Not if leads to shortages that impact on those awaiting 2nd dose



That's not likely though, and if the trial suggests 100% protection (even if only after 22 days) from hospitalisation after the first dose, surely better to get that into everyone as fast as possible and then deal with dose 2?


----------



## gosub (Mar 25, 2021)

cupid_stunt said:


> That's not going to happen.


words that over the last decade Ive increasingly come to dread


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 25, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Of course, silly me, for a moment I forgot the rules:  _any positive outcome would have happened anyway, any negative thing is Brexit's fault._
> Will try harder next time.


whoa there. negative things can be laid at the feet of our abominable government too you know


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 25, 2021)

gosub said:


> words that over the last decade Ive increasingly come to dread


yeh it's up there with 'trust me'


----------



## brogdale (Mar 25, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh it's up there with 'trust me'


& lessons will be learnt?


----------



## gosub (Mar 25, 2021)

& that was a party political broadcast on bahalf of...


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 25, 2021)

brogdale said:


> & lessons will be learnt?


= some vague nonsense will be cobbled together and quickly forgotten


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 25, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> whoa there. negative things can be laid at the feet of our abominable government too you know




Brexit government, although in the new world order two negatives are just doubly bad.


----------



## stdP (Mar 25, 2021)

sleaterkinney said:


> Results demonstrated vaccine efficacy of 76% (CI: 59% to 86%) after a first dose,



Note that, if I'm remembering correctly, efficacy in the context of this study means reducing transmission. In the context of preventing people getting serious C19 and ending up in hospital (which was the overwhelming crisis that was fast approaching with hospitals starting to run out of capacity), efficacy of the AZ appears to be much, much higher - at least 90% and possibly nearly 100%. Time will tell, but it was the right decision to start putting AZ in to as many arms as possible as soon as possible. Whilst there wasn't any complete academic study on this exact scenario, the preliminary data gave a strong suggestion that it was the case, so the scientists took a slight gamble, convinced the government of the gamble, and as a whole we and the NHS can all breathe a bit easier, both literally and metaphorically. Most medical staff in the UK TTBOMK have been prioritised to get the pfizer vaccine since it appears to give better transmission protection (but again it's going to be a long time before we know the full story).

Personally I'm currently of the opinion that  we've had a lucky escape but that it's a largely orthogonal issue to brexit, but because they happen at the same time it's difficult to separate the two completely. The EU sabre-rattling over their own poor planning and logistics is at best childish and at worst downright ugly; the recent spats about the AZ vaccine reek of panicked face-saving (since you had almost all of the continental medical authorities saying that even if AZ _did_ cause blood clotting, C19 causes clotting anyway* and is far more deadly... so take the fuckin' vaccine!) which has poured diesel on to an already toasty tyre fire, and dropping this particular political bollock is going to result in thousands more deaths. As I mentioned in another thread the press in italy has whipped up a massive storm and convinced lots of mugwumps to panic and swear off any vaccines at all, ever. My partner's mother, 65, has been told she can expect to be able to book for her (pfizer) vaccine appointment in _seven months_. There's certainly a technocratic side to the EU here that appears to have blundered substantially, in a similar way to our own home-grown substantially blundering technocrats were doing a year ago, and both are eyeing each up as Aunt Sally whilst the science and healthcare folk roll their eyes in despair**.

Anyway, this is all probably more relevant for the C19 board than the usual pram-throwing that goes on in this thread. I voted remoaniac and I'm still convinced brexit is a cake made of foetid pig effluent with union jack icing and a bulldog artfully placed on top for our dining pleasure (not eating your slice is not an option and no, you can't have a corner bit with slightly less pig shit in it). One accidental victory with vaccines at the same time as an EU mis-step isn't going to make up for all the other disruption going on at the same time (particularly with trade which is getting very ugly very quickly), but as long as brexit and C19 are happening at the same time, many people will ascribe all deleterious effects to their demon of choice and all advantages to their preferred messiah, because that's the simple nuance-free option.

* For those interested, last I read was that the clotting was put down to people having an allergic reaction to their own antibodies produced by their own bodies' immune response, so it can happen with any vaccine (and had already been recorded with the pfizer one at least) and of course _would also happen if you caught C19_, giving you a double-whammy. In most studies, the incidence of blood clots in AZ recipients is lower than the general population; the strongest data to the contrary is currently coming out of Norway who release their further findings on the matter tomorrow.

** Bias on my part here because I (laughably) consider myself a scientist and have been rolling my eyes so much over the last year I've given myself a crick in the neck.


----------



## JimW (Mar 25, 2021)

I know we've moved on but have only just caught up and want to speak up for the British weather. Knocks the shitty continental climate we get here into a cocked hat, give me mizzle for weeks any time over either bollock freezing or scorching and sweaty and mosquitoes.


----------



## editor (Mar 25, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> you do keep bringing it up tho. and touring the us is comparable to - but not equivalent with - playing europe.


In what ways is it 'comparable' for smaller bands - apart from the actual  physical act of playing gigs? And if the experiences are so comparable, why do you think so few smaller bands who regularly play Europe ever get to tour the US?


----------



## editor (Mar 25, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> And let’s not put the vaccine issue aside, you keep claiming it isn’t Brexit related and keep trying to back that claim up by conflating it with vaccine approvals, yet my friend Varnia still can not see her mum cos the over 80’s in Portugal are still waiting for a jab, but I will have mine on Monday, aged 48. My step-mum’s aunt is still dead cos she lived in Holland and not the U.K.


You've done the personal stuff before, so it's getting a bit boring now.

But I did ask politely,  so could you now list all the positive things that have come out of Brexit so far?


----------



## editor (Mar 25, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Tbf he asked for ALL things, the greedy so and so.


You can just post up 3 or 4 things, if you like. So what have you got?


----------



## discokermit (Mar 25, 2021)

editor said:


> why do you think so few smaller bands who regularly play Europe ever get to tour the US?


they arent good enough?


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 25, 2021)

editor said:


> In what ways is it 'comparable' for smaller bands - apart from the actual  physical act of playing gigs? And if the experiences are so comparable, why do you think so few smaller bands who regularly play Europe ever get to tour the US?


if you look again at my post you'll see i expressly said i didn't think that touring the usa is equivalent to touring within the eu. nonetheless here you are wafting on again about equivalencies.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 25, 2021)

editor said:


> You can just post up 3 or 4 things, if you like. So what have you got?



Have a couple more than 3 or 4, but my dinner's getting cold:

We got rid of pig fucker and his poodle and they took their austerity with them.

All vulnerable people who want one have had a vaccine which stops them from being dead – it’s a repeat, but a real crowd pleaser among those who like being alive.

We're no longer part of a supra-national state that has a judiciary, parliament, an executive, an economic policy, a currency, a foreign and defence policy and a diplomatic service.

Live animal exports are no longer a thing.

We now allow equal access to residency in the UK to people from non-European nations as we do to those from European nations (except Ireland, of course).

A united Ireland looks an odds-on certainty.

The UK will not be drawn in to being part of a Euro military calamity force.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 25, 2021)

editor said:


> You've done the personal stuff before, so it's getting a bit boring now.



If my lived experience is not relevant than neither is yours and you could shut up about your poxy band, but to tell me that my step-mum’s aunt’s death is boring you is quite cuntish.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 25, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> If my lived experience is not relevant than neither is yours and you could shut up about your poxy band, but to tell me that my step-mum’s aunt’s death is boring you is quite cuntish.


i'm sorry, i missed that above and i'm sorry to hear about your step-great aunt. and you're right, to say it's boring is cuntish.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 25, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Have a couple more than 3 or 4, but my dinner's getting cold:
> 
> We got rid of pig fucker and his poodle and they took their austerity with them.
> 
> ...


Now get ready to be told that these aren’t benefits, or if they are they’re outweighed by more expensive widgets from Germany.


----------



## two sheds (Mar 25, 2021)

More goods delayed - Bloody Brexit again 









						Goods for UK ‘may be delayed’, amid fears Ever Given could take weeks to re-float - follow live
					

Follow the latest updates




					www.independent.co.uk
				






> Some goods bound for Britain may be delayed


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 25, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Now get ready to be told that these aren’t benefits, or if they are they’re outweighed by more expensive widgets from Germany.


expensive widgets from germany held up at the border because the wrong form has been filled in no doubt


----------



## sleaterkinney (Mar 25, 2021)

> We got rid of pig fucker and his poodle and they took their austerity with them


Johnson was part of those governments and also the vote leave lot have been explicit about brexit being an opportunity for striping away protections.
They even gave nurses a whole 1% pay rise - that wasn’t on the side of the bus, was it.?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 25, 2021)

sleaterkinney said:


> Johnson was part of those governments



No he wasn’t.


----------



## bimble (Mar 25, 2021)

This does look nuts. The EU has sent 21million doses to the UK. I think the UK has sent them none.
Hope I dont get one of those euro ones when it’s my go.








						EU leaders back 'global value chains' instead of vaccine export bans
					

Refusal to support measure despite Ursula von der Leyen highlighting 21m doses sent to UK




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## sleaterkinney (Mar 25, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> No he wasn’t.


He was an MP under Cameron.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 25, 2021)

sleaterkinney said:


> He was an MP under Cameron.




And being an MP makes you “part of those governments” does it?


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 25, 2021)

bimble said:


> This does look nuts. The EU has sent 21million doses to the UK. I think the UK has sent them none.
> Hope I dont get one of those euro ones when it’s my go.
> 
> 
> ...



Remember when they say "the EU has sent X doses to the UK" that doesn't mean that the EU themselves have sent them like they were doing us a favour, as the EU rhetoric likes to imply. It means that companies who have contracted to send the UK vaccine doses but happen to have manufacturing facilities in the EU have simply honoured their contractual obligations.


----------



## bimble (Mar 25, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Remember when they say "the EU has sent X doses to the UK" that doesn't mean that the EU themselves have sent them, as the EU rhetoric likes to imply. It means that companies who have contracted to send the UK doses but happen to be based in the EU have simply honoured their contractual obligations.


I know. Don’t think the Eu is going around boasting to member states that they’re involved in sending doses over here, quite the opposite.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Mar 25, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> And being an MP makes you “part of those governments” does it?


Here he is voting to cut benefits:









						Boris Johnson MP, Uxbridge and South Ruislip
					

Read Boris Johnson's contributions to Parliament, including speeches and questions, investigate their voting record, and get email alerts on their activity




					www.theyworkforyou.com


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 25, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Remember when they say "the EU has sent X doses to the UK" that doesn't mean that the EU themselves have sent them, as the EU rhetoric likes to imply. It means that companies who have contracted to send the UK doses but happen to be based in the EU have simply honoured their contractual obligations.



And when Ursula says the U.K. has sent nothing, she means nothing but the key ingredient that Pfizer needs to make their vaccine.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 25, 2021)

bimble said:


> This does look nuts. The EU has sent 21million doses to the UK. I think the UK has sent them none.
> Hope I dont get one of those euro ones when it’s my go.
> 
> 
> ...



Misleading headline, 'the bloc' hasn't sent the UK any vaccines, according to that article Pfizer has sent us 20m doses in accordance with the contract they had signed, and the EU doesn't seem to have a problem with Pfizer over their supplies to the EU.

The EU has fucked-up, and are now acting like kids throwing their toys out of the pram.


----------



## bimble (Mar 25, 2021)

I know. They look like absolute idiots, for not banning exports of vaccine from the facilities in the Eu.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 25, 2021)

sleaterkinney said:


> Here he is voting to cut benefits:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Oh right, so MPs now become part of the government if they vote the same way that the government does, is that where you’re at now?


----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 25, 2021)

bimble said:


> I know. They look like absolute idiots, for not banning exports of vaccine from the facilities in the Eu.



Err, no.


----------



## bimble (Mar 25, 2021)

cupid_stunt said:


> Err, no.


Well, they kind of do though.
This arguments no good for me, bit personal with the folks over there still waiting for a letter in May.if i get vaccinated before them it won’t feel like a triumph.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Mar 25, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Oh right, so MPs now become part of the government if they vote the same way that the government does, is that where you’re at now?


Fair enough, but he has voted for it and his treatment of nurses shows where his politics lie.


----------



## gosub (Mar 25, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Have a couple more than 3 or 4, but my dinner's getting cold:
> 
> We got rid of pig fucker and his poodle and they took their austerity with them.
> 
> ...



Not only are we no longer part, there were elements of Leave, I think, were hoping our departure would bring the whole edifice down...We got out without doing that. As not right as the EU is, its not SO pernicious  the UK could have only been seen as arseholes for doing so.  As is, the camel lumbers on. Other straw, such as the economic reforms COVID demand can be piled on. Nothing to do with us guv


----------



## Supine (Mar 25, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> And when Ursula says the U.K. has sent nothing, she means nothing but the key ingredient that Pfizer needs to make their vaccine.



That is bollocks. Follow that rule and the UK would have made zero vaccines.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 25, 2021)

bimble said:


> Well, they kind of do though.
> This arguments no good for me, bit personal with the folks over there still waiting for a letter in May.



They have fucked-up, they have a particular contractual problem with AstraZeneca, that's their problem, not ours.

It certainly doesn't give them any rights to interfere in the contract between the UK and Pfizer, especially when the UK is supplying ingredients required by Pfizer to produce it for the UK, EU & beyond.

Sorry to hear your folk are left waiting because of this.


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 25, 2021)

editor said:


> The government took a gamble with the vaccines and got lucky. It has very little to Brexit no matter how much you want it to be true.



Before we swiftly try and change the subject  I'd like to quote you the words of the President of the European Commission  



> “I am aware that alone a country can be a speedboat, while the EU is more like a tanker” .
> 
> “Before concluding a contract with a pharmaceutical company, the 27 member states had five full days to say whether they agreed or not.
> 
> “This naturally delays the process.



Ursula von der Leyen


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 25, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Oh right, so MPs now become part of the government if they vote the same way that the government does, is that where you’re at now?


So sir Keir starmer is part of the government


----------



## gosub (Mar 25, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Before we swiftly try and change the subject  I'd like to quote you the words of the President of the European Commission
> 
> 
> 
> Ursula von der Leyen



 Reminded me of a song by Gypsy, , which I youtubed and am now missing the WIndies


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 25, 2021)

editor said:


> Certainly been no shortage of comically clueless people offering opinions on how my career as a musician hasn't supposedly been negatively impacted, or* hoe *touring the US is somehow comparable to playing Europe.



Reminds me of Sparks's Suburban Homeboy

'I am a suburban homeboy with a suburban 'ho right by my side
I am a suburban homeboy and I say yo dog to my pool cleaning guy '


----------



## Dystopiary (Mar 25, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Brits who never wanted to before now find it more difficult to live or work in the EU



Never wanted to before? Where are you getting that from?


----------



## sleaterkinney (Mar 25, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> So sir Keir starmer is part of the government


Unfortunately, yes.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 25, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Before we swiftly try and change the subject  I'd like to quote you the words of the President of the European Commission
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Forget that 5-days, she should explain why it took the EU almost 3 months to approve the deal with AZ, that the 'Inclusive Vaccine Alliance' (Germany, Holland, France and Italy) had already arranged, before the EU took over negotiations.


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 25, 2021)

cupid_stunt said:


> Forget that 5-days, she should explain why it took the EU almost 3 months to approve the deal with AZ, that the 'Inclusive Vaccine Alliance' (Germany, Holland, France and Italy) had already arranged, before the EU took over negotiations.


Mainly objections from Spain, Portugal, and Greece amongst others,  that the 'Inclusive Vaccine Alliance' wasn't as inclusive as its name suggested and that they would get first dibs on the vaccines. As I recall a deal was done; the procurement team would be led/chaired by one of the IVA and that the IVA could order more vaccines on top of the EU procurement but the EU procurement had to be delivered first (or at least a tranche of it ). Of course, both the UK and US were kilometres down the road by then despite the EU paying up front development and research costs to suppliers.


----------



## editor (Mar 25, 2021)

discokermit said:


> they arent good enough?


Loads of shit bands get to play the US, so want to try again?


----------



## gosub (Mar 25, 2021)

editor said:


> Loads of shit bands get to play the US, so want to try again?


----------



## editor (Mar 25, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Have a couple more than 3 or 4, but my dinner's getting cold:
> 
> We got rid of pig fucker and his poodle and they took their austerity with them.
> 
> ...


So how does any of that that positively impact on people's day to days lives,  and is it worth the vast sums of money that have been skunked in making Brexit happen (and throwing touring musicians and the art industry under the bus). And not forgetting, of course, how Brexit fuelled xenophobia and racism.


----------



## discokermit (Mar 25, 2021)

editor said:


> Loads of shit bands get to play the US, so want to try again?


there are degrees of shitness.


----------



## editor (Mar 25, 2021)

gosub said:


>


You'll have to explain this one for me please.


----------



## editor (Mar 25, 2021)

discokermit said:


> there are degrees of shitness.


Could you get to the point please? 

Europe is - or rather was - a great place for smaller bands to tour. It was relatively easy and cheap to get to with minimum hassle, so you could play tours on a shoestring, promote the band, sell merch and even come back with a few quid in your pocket. 

None of that applies to touring America.


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 25, 2021)

Putting the pressing  issue of traveling musicians ( and the arts industry) on one side, this is tonights  EU statement on covid 19 and the vaccines.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 25, 2021)

> We underline the importance of transparency as well as of the use of export authorisations. We recognise the importance of global value chains and reaffirm that companies must ensure predictability of their vaccine production and respect contractual delivery deadlines.



What do these bits mean?

Do "contractual delivery deadlines" apply to the vaccines contracted and paid for by the UK and produced in the EU?

Does this mean that the EU won't impede these with export controls?


----------



## Supine (Mar 25, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> What do these bits mean?
> 
> Do "contractual delivery deadlines" apply to the vaccines contracted and paid for by the UK and produced in the EU?
> 
> Does this mean that the EU won't impede these with export controls?



It's politicians trying to look like they're doing something while the companies are doing their best to supply as much as possible. For a change politicians aren't helping much.


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 25, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> What do these bits mean?
> 
> Do "contractual delivery deadlines" apply to the vaccines contracted and paid for by the UK and produced in the EU?
> 
> Does this mean that the EU won't impede these with export controls?


I think it means that they are hedging their bets tbh. They've had talks with the UK , nothing much happened and at the moment anyway a number of EU states have fallen short of backing export bans.


----------



## gosub (Mar 25, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Putting the pressing  issue of traveling musicians ( and the arts industry) on one side, this is tonights  EU statement on covid 19 and the vaccines.
> 
> View attachment 260305
> 
> View attachment 260306



So..3. means if anyone can tell the EU to wind its neck in its COVAX


----------



## sleaterkinney (Mar 25, 2021)

What’s the actual difference between an exclusive deal and an export ban?









						We have exclusivity deal with AstraZeneca: UK Health Secy - ET HealthWorld
					

Hancock said that both sides were looking to resolve a dispute surrounding vaccine delivery.




					health.economictimes.indiatimes.com


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 25, 2021)

sleaterkinney said:


> What’s the actual difference between an exclusive deal and an export ban?



One is a contract between a supplier and a customer, the other is a government edict.


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 25, 2021)

This bloke Georg Von Harrach is a good follow on Twitter for EU issues. He's to the point, factual and reliable.



and heres Von Leyens slide re exports


----------



## sleaterkinney (Mar 25, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> One is a contract between a supplier and a customer, the other is a government edict.


And what’s the difference in the end point?.


----------



## muscovyduck (Mar 25, 2021)

I'd think the export ban was fair enough if the EU's function wasn't to specifically erode individual country's rights to do that sort of thing in the name of neoliberalism


----------



## gosub (Mar 25, 2021)

sleaterkinney said:


> What’s the actual difference between an exclusive deal and an export ban?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Greater than 15million doses from the look of it.  The whole Eu situation is in danger of bogging down. AZ may be an Anglo Swedish company but India is vital to the firm.  that the export ban I'd concentrate on if I was Knightbridge Circle. The ramp up projected there  was from 70 to 100 and the Indians want 15more of it


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 25, 2021)

sleaterkinney said:


> And what’s the difference in the end point?.


Diplomacy.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Mar 25, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Diplomacy.


Semantics. No need for an export ban if your contract says they can’t supply anyone else.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 25, 2021)

Quite.


----------



## Raheem (Mar 25, 2021)

sleaterkinney said:


> Semantics. No need for an export ban if your contract says they can’t supply anyone else.


Having such a contract is an export ban. It's just that it isn't statutory.


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 25, 2021)

Just a couple of snippets that I've just seen on RTP , the Portuguese BBC equivalent. 



> According to the Portuguese Prime Minister, Commissioner Thierry Breton will, at the same time, do everything to “ enforce the contracts that are signed, using all instruments , including the export ban, if necessary, but safeguarding always the supply chains that are essential to ensure the smooth functioning of the industry, both in Europe and outside Europe ”.
> 
> António Costa took the opportunity to stress that Europe has distinguished itself as the economic area that has exported the most vaccines , namely within the scope of the Covax program, applied in developing countries in Africa or in South America. South.
> 
> ...



The first bit is Costa (ie Portugal) going along with the EU but clearly indicating that there is a difference on export bans. The last two bits are interesting as they suggest in my view an expansion of production sites across the EU


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 25, 2021)

Raheem said:


> Having such a contract is an export ban. It's just that it isn't statutory.



It's a bit more complex than that. The entire UK procurement strategy with AstraZeneca has been professionally managed and invested in, with contracts locked-down in English law; whilst the EU's has been half-arsed, unprofessional, and contracted in wishy-washy Belgian law. The EU are now desperately trying to save face by pretending the UK's the bad guy when they've really just been utterly shit legally, and completely craven individually in trying to destroy confidence in the AZ vaccine to cover up their failings.

Legally and morally the EU are fucked on this so they either need to fall back on dirty shit tactics like export bans, or come to an agreement with the UK. The latter would likely be possible (no real need to vaccinate 20 year olds in Britain when 70 year olds in France haven't had it) but they've done such a good smear job on AZ that a lot of Europeans don't want that jab now anyway, so the EU look a bit like the bald bloke fighting over a comb. 

Good piece on it here.

#benefitsofbrexit


----------



## Raheem (Mar 26, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> It's a bit more complex than that. The entire UK procurement strategy with AstraZeneca has been professionally managed and invested in, with contracts locked-down in English law; whilst the EU's has been half-arsed, unprofessional, and contracted in wishy-washy Belgian law. The EU are now desperately trying to save face by pretending the UK's the bad guy when they've really just been utterly shit legally, and completely craven individually in trying to destroy confidence in the AZ vaccine to cover up their failings.
> 
> Legally and morally the EU are fucked on this so they either need to fall back on dirty shit tactics like export bans, or come to an agreement with the UK. The latter would likely be possible (no real need to vaccinate 20 year olds in Britain when 70 year olds in France haven't had it) but they've done such a good smear job on AZ that a lot of Europeans don't want that jab now anyway, so the EU look a bit like the bald bloke fighting over a comb.
> 
> ...


Your opening line promised so much. But then it was just some quite-possibly-fair criticism of the EU, to the tune of Land of Hope and Glory. Can you explain why you think it's more complicated than contractual export ban = export ban?


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 26, 2021)

Raheem said:


> Your opening line promised so much. But then it was just some quite-possibly-fair criticism of the EU, to the tune of Land of Hope and Glory. Can you explain why you think it's more complicated than contractual export ban = export ban?


Lol. Point out that another nation or the EU has got something right and it’s credit where it’s due. Do the same with the U.K. and it’s Land of Hope and Glory flag waving!

As above, the difference is legal and diplomatic and regards intent. The intent of the U.K. contract was to secure a given amount of supplies from AZ.  Once they’ve delivered the contracted amount they’re free to give the rest to whoever they like. In contrast to an export ban, AstraZeneca are, now, free to export any amount they produce in excess of their staged commitments. So pretty much like every contract that’s ever been written by anyone who knew what they were doing. The intent of any EU export ban would be to retrospectively _prevent_ the delivery of legally binding contracts (UK has one with Pfizer Biontech too)  to cover up their procurement failings and point the finger elsewhere. This is what Jean Claude Juncker and others are criticising UvdL and the commission for so sharply at the moment.


----------



## TopCat (Mar 26, 2021)

Apparently we are not European any more. According to Macron in this article. More than doubled down now.








						EU leaders back 'global value chains' instead of vaccine export bans
					

Refusal to support measure despite Ursula von der Leyen highlighting 21m doses sent to UK




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 26, 2021)

Hard to imagine that at the end of January this year the position of some on here was that it would only be a matter of hours before the EU's crack legal team would have AZ in the courts and be emptying their pockets for breaching cast iron contract conditions.


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 26, 2021)

Meanwhile in the frictionless trade paradise of France where farmers can work, study and visit 27 different countries


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 26, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Apparently we are not European any more. According to Macron in this article. More than doubled down now.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Some of this is brilliant:



> The lack of supply to the EU was emphasised by an early summit squabble between the German chancellor, Angela Merkel, and her Austrian counterpart, Sebastian Kurz, who demanded extra doses. Merkel informed Kurz that the lack of vaccine in Austria was due to his government’s failure to order sufficient amounts rather than a failure in Brussels.



So when the EU don't get enough supply it's the UK's fault but when an EU member state doesn't get enough supply it's the member's fault, despite Germany, France and Holland sitting on millions of undistributed AZ doses.  

And ...



			
				UvdL said:
			
		

> “Companies have to honour their contract to the European Union before they export to other regions in the world. And this is of course the case with AstraZeneca,” ...



So they have to honour their contract with the EU but not their (superior) one with the UK!


----------



## TopCat (Mar 26, 2021)

“It’s the end of naivety,” Macron told reporters. “I support export control mechanisms put in place by the European commission. I support the fact that we must block all exports for as long as some drug companies don’t respect their commitments with Europeans.”


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 26, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> It's a bit more complex than that. The entire UK procurement strategy with AstraZeneca has been professionally managed and invested in, with contracts locked-down in English law; whilst the EU's has been half-arsed, unprofessional, and contracted in wishy-washy Belgian law. The EU are now desperately trying to save face by pretending the UK's the bad guy when they've really just been utterly shit legally, and completely craven individually in trying to destroy confidence in the AZ vaccine to cover up their failings.
> 
> Legally and morally the EU are fucked on this so they either need to fall back on dirty shit tactics like export bans, or come to an agreement with the UK. The latter would likely be possible (no real need to vaccinate 20 year olds in Britain when 70 year olds in France haven't had it) but they've done such a good smear job on AZ that a lot of Europeans don't want that jab now anyway, so the EU look a bit like the bald bloke fighting over a comb.
> 
> ...


Phlegmatic English law


----------



## bimble (Mar 26, 2021)

India’s banned all vaccine exports too, i think. It’s going to be really rough all this, on international relations, and go on for months and months isn’t it.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 26, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> It's a bit more complex than that. The entire UK procurement strategy with AstraZeneca has been professionally managed and invested in, with contracts locked-down in English law; whilst the EU's has been half-arsed, unprofessional, and contracted in wishy-washy Belgian law. The EU are now desperately trying to save face by pretending the UK's the bad guy when they've really just been utterly shit legally, and completely craven individually in trying to destroy confidence in the AZ vaccine to cover up their failings.
> 
> Legally and morally the EU are fucked on this so they either need to fall back on dirty shit tactics like export bans, or come to an agreement with the UK. The latter would likely be possible (no real need to vaccinate 20 year olds in Britain when 70 year olds in France haven't had it) but they've done such a good smear job on AZ that a lot of Europeans don't want that jab now anyway, so the EU look a bit like the bald bloke fighting over a comb.
> 
> ...


Yeh. They don't need it and Johnson won't use it. But perhaps it's for someone else


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 26, 2021)

bimble said:


> India’s banned all vaccine exports too, i think. It’s going to be really rough all this, on international relations, and go on for months and months isn’t it.


They are still supplying the Covax scheme from what I read today. That scheme itself  has suffered delays due to problems at a South Korean plant


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 26, 2021)

TopCat said:


> “It’s the end of naivety,” Macron told reporters. “I support export control mechanisms put in place by the European commission. I support the fact that we must block all exports for as long as some drug companies don’t respect their commitments with Europeans.”


One eye on the French elections


----------



## TopCat (Mar 26, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> One eye on the French elections


Are they soon? The anger of the EU sponsored pension and job security changes must still rankle. I am starting to hope he follows in his predecessors footsteps and gets nicked.


----------



## bimble (Mar 26, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> They are still supplying the Covax scheme from what I read today. That scheme itself  has suffered delays due to problems at a South Korean plant


They (Indian production facilities) owe us 5 million doses, will be interesting to see if that’s going to cause loud noises from government or if they let it slide for a while, trade deal to be done and all.


----------



## kebabking (Mar 26, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Apparently we are not European any more. According to Macron in this article. More than doubled down now.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



One notes that Macrons' view that we 'aren't European' on the vaccine doesn't quite extend to the three, £30m, Chinook helicopters plus 100 supporting personnel we've lent the French government so that can pursue their wars in Mali and Chad. 2000 flying hours in the desert in two years from the wokkas, as well as the decade of support we've provided with heavy airlift from the C-17's and surveillance flights from the Sentinels and Reapers.

Man's a cunt.


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 26, 2021)

bimble said:


> They (Indian production facilities) owe us 5 million doses, will be interesting to see if that’s going to cause loud noises from government or if they let it slide for a while, trade deal to be done and all.


I'm really not sure what the details of UK contract is with India tbh. I know India gave notice as it was reported in the UK press a couple of weeks ago that there was to be a delay. The Indian Institute are also behind on shipments to  Morocco, Saudi Arabia and Brazil. The only country they are still supplying directly is Bangladesh


----------



## Yossarian (Mar 26, 2021)

kebabking said:


> One notes that Macrons' view that we 'aren't European' on the vaccine doesn't quite extend to the three, £30m, Chinook helicopters plus 100 supporting personnel we've lent the French government so that can pursue their wars in Mali and Chad. 2000 flying hours in the desert in two years from the wokkas, as well as the decade of support we've provided with heavy airlift from the C-17's and surveillance flights from the Sentinels and Reapers.
> 
> Man's a cunt.



Is that an EU initiative or a Former Colonial Powers Club thing?


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 26, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> Is that an EU initiative or a Former Colonial Powers Club thing?


Entente cordiale


----------



## ElizabethofYork (Mar 26, 2021)

Interesting and terrible that global health depends on politics and profits.


----------



## Maggot (Mar 26, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> We got rid of pig fucker and his poodle and they took their austerity with them.


And ended up with Johnson, who is soooo much better.



> We now allow equal access to residency in the UK to people from non-European nations as we do to those from European nations (except Ireland, of course).


As long as you earn over £25,600, which excludes many NHS staff.

Brexit has exacerbated massive staff shortages in the NHS, which has almost certainly led to deaths. 




> The UK will not be drawn in to being part of a Euro military calamity force.


The is no European Defence Force, so this comes under Project Fear.


----------



## TopCat (Mar 26, 2021)

ElizabethofYork said:


> Interesting and terrible that global health depends on politics and profits.


It was ever thus.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 26, 2021)

Maggot said:


> The is no European Defence Force, so this comes under Project Fear.


It's like the Western European Union never existed


----------



## kebabking (Mar 26, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> Is that an EU initiative or a Former Colonial Powers Club thing?



Colonial powers club - there are also two other missions in the same place, an EU one and a UN one.

UK supports all three.


----------



## bimble (Mar 26, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> They are still supplying the Covax scheme from what I read today.


I don’t think that’s right, they’re not exporting at all, for now.


----------



## editor (Mar 26, 2021)

kebabking said:


> One notes that Macrons' view that we 'aren't European' on the vaccine doesn't quite extend to the three, £30m, Chinook helicopters plus 100 supporting personnel we've lent the French government so that can pursue their wars in Mali and Chad. 2000 flying hours in the desert in two years from the wokkas, as well as the decade of support we've provided with heavy airlift from the C-17's and surveillance flights from the Sentinels and Reapers.
> 
> Man's a cunt.


'Lent' as in hired out for fat profit and are thus equally guilty of helping them pursue this bloody conflict, yes?


----------



## kebabking (Mar 26, 2021)

Maggot said:


> The is no European Defence Force, so this comes under Project Fear.



This may come as a surprise to the EU's Military Staff HQ in Brussels, the EU Battlegroups, and the EU military missions in Mali and Kosovo.

There is not an _EU Army, _and there is unlikely to be ome in the forseeable future, but the idea that the EU has no interest or role in military operations, or doesn't believe that it should have one, is right up there with the idea that UVDL is a competent administrator with a firm grip of contract law.


----------



## kebabking (Mar 26, 2021)

editor said:


> 'Lent' as in hired out for fat profit and are thus equally guilty of helping them pursue this bloody conflict, yes?



No, free and gratis.

I've not noticed your extensive writings on the situation in Mali - could you point me to them?


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 26, 2021)

bimble said:


> I don’t think that’s right, they’re not exporting at all, for now.


Only repeating what is in the Portuguese news tbh . I'll contact them . Can they pm you on here?


----------



## sleaterkinney (Mar 26, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Meanwhile in the frictionless trade paradise of France where farmers can work, study and visit 27 different countries



And they can protest...


----------



## sleaterkinney (Mar 26, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> So sir Keir starmer is part of the government


He leads the Department of Sensibility.


----------



## bimble (Mar 26, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Only repeating what is in the Portuguese news tbh . I'll contact them . Can they pm you on here?


You’re being a bit weird. I think you misread the Portuguese news is all.


----------



## editor (Mar 26, 2021)

kebabking said:


> No, free and gratis.


And all the soldiers too? Such generosity! So who's paying for it? 



> The United Kingdom is to extend operations of three Royal Air Force (RAF) Boeing Chinook heavy-lift helicopters that have been deployed to Mali since July 2018, the government announced on 12 June.
> 
> 
> This second extension to the mission will see the Chinook HC.5 (fat tank) helicopters and almost 100 personnel that have provided intra-theatre air mobility support to French forces engaged in the Operation ‘Barkhane’ regional counter-terrorism mission in the Sahel region of West Africa. The RAF did not say for how long the mission is being extended, but the previous occasion saw a further 12 months added.
> ...


----------



## kebabking (Mar 26, 2021)

editor said:


> And all the soldiers too? Such generosity! So who's paying for it?



You.


----------



## MrSki (Mar 26, 2021)

Free ports will be great for Britain. Oh wait...


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 26, 2021)

kebabking said:


> You.


There endeth the lesson.


----------



## editor (Mar 26, 2021)

MrSki said:


> Free ports will be great for Britain. Oh wait...


Embarrassing


----------



## MrSki (Mar 26, 2021)

Not sure how much of this is down to stockpiling & whether it will sort it self out but figures for January not looking too good for British exporters.


----------



## gosub (Mar 26, 2021)

bimble said:


> India’s banned all vaccine exports too, i think. It’s going to be really rough all this, on international relations, and go on for months and months isn’t it.



As I said that's the one UK would do well to focus on. Too much noise and other politics to get anywhere on the EU side of things.


What really went wrong here was the Pasteur Institute attempt failed.  Which was bad luck, they are up their with the best of them.  The real surprise has been the Sputnik, who'd have thunk the Russians knew about germs.


----------



## gosub (Mar 26, 2021)

MrSki said:


> Not sure how much of this is down to stockpiling & whether it will sort it self out but figures for January not looking too good for British exporters.


The just the Jan stats aren't a proper indication of anything (beyond a lack of preperedness.  A like for like in say July will give a better indication of the size of the hit (and there has been one)


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 26, 2021)

MrSki said:


> Free ports will be great for Britain. Oh wait...




What does it matter which country the owner of a business is registered in?


----------



## two sheds (Mar 26, 2021)

MrSki said:


> Not sure how much of this is down to stockpiling & whether it will sort it self out but figures for January not looking too good for British exporters.


No engineering products? Workshop of the World


----------



## gosub (Mar 26, 2021)

two sheds said:


> No engineering products? Workshop of the World


Indeed.  A single Airbus Beluga  run beats half of those stats


----------



## two sheds (Mar 26, 2021)

Are they right though? No cars, military, ships, electronics,  ...?


----------



## gosub (Mar 26, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Are they right though? No cars, military, ships, electronics,  ...?




clearly not.  Production is down (understandably) but 2 wings are worth more than the 2020 fish figures and they are still building more than that a month
Even BBC Worldwide probably exports more digitally than those stats


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 26, 2021)

MrSki said:


> Not sure how much of this is down to stockpiling & whether it will sort it self out but figures for January not looking too good for British exporters.



It's Groundhog Day


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 26, 2021)

gosub said:


> The real surprise has been the Sputnik, who'd have thunk the Russians knew about germs.



The actual real surprise is that people are actually taking it. I rather take my chances with the virus than be injected with Putin juice.


----------



## brogdale (Mar 26, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> What does it matter which country the owner of a business is registered in?


Is that a Mandelson quote?


----------



## gosub (Mar 26, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> The actual real surprise is that people are actually taking it. I rather take my chances with the virus than be injected with Putin juice.



You mean taking it willingly.   Вы не можете провести всю свою жизнь, протирая дверные ручки.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Mar 26, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> It's Groundhog Day



I’m thinking of running of some T shirts off with the January trade figures on, stick an EU flag on and maybe a quote on from Blair/Campbell/Geldof/the CBI/the IMF/Cameron. I reckon I could afford to underwrite a series of unprofitable band tours with the proceeds...


----------



## two sheds (Mar 26, 2021)

gosub said:


> You mean taking it willingly.   Вы не можете провести всю свою жизнь, протирая дверные ручки.


Ну, у меня был Путин, и он мне не повредил


----------



## kebabking (Mar 26, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I’m thinking of running of some T shirts off with the January trade figures on, stick an EU flag on and maybe a quote on from Blair/Campbell/Geldof/the CBI/the IMF/Cameron. I reckon I could afford to underwrite a series of unprofitable band tours with the proceeds...



Get yourself a decent promo campaign and you'll cover all that excess duty on expensive German electronic gear as well...


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 26, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> What does it matter which country the owner of a business is registered in?


A simple google on ‘British ‘ brands , untilities and a number of landmark assets gives a frightening indication of foreign ownership in the U.K.  decades before Brexit or this government.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 26, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> A simple google on ‘British ‘ brands , untilities and a number of landmark assets gives a frightening indication of foreign ownership in the U.K.  decades before Brexit or this government.



Phew! 

I first read that as google on _British bands _and nearly lost the fucking will to live again.


----------



## brogdale (Mar 26, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> A simple google on ‘British ‘ brands , untilities and a number of landmark assets gives a frightening indication of foreign ownership in the U.K.  decades before Brexit or this government.


Neoliberalism, innit?
And Brexit was a contest between 2 competing visions of how best the process can be accelerated.


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 26, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Phew!
> 
> I first read that as google on _British bands _and nearly lost the fucking will to live again.


Might be an idea if we change the name of the dedicated thread to that ?


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 26, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Neoliberalism, innit?
> And Brexit was a contest between 2 competing visions of how best the process can be accelerated.


Yes that’s how the ruling classes and big companies see it .


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 26, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Phew!
> 
> I first read that as google on _British bands _and nearly lost the fucking will to live again.


i thought it was british (kruger)rands and so about hoarding south african gold


----------



## bimble (Mar 26, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Yes that’s how the ruling classes and big companies see it .


Do you feel like the Conservative party have been cunningly manipulated by the masses into doing brexit, which is actually some kind of anti capitalist act, and then overwhelmingly voted in again to lull them into a false sense of being in control ?


----------



## brogdale (Mar 26, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Yes that’s how the ruling classes and big companies see it .


Yep, capital and the capitalist parties have been arguing the toss since the inception of the The Schuman Declaration. This never has been anything other than a top-down contest.


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 26, 2021)

bimble said:


> Do you feel like the Conservative party have been cunningly manipulated by the masses into doing brexit, which is actually some kind of anti capitalist act, and then overwhelmingly voted in again to lull them into a false sense of being in control ?


Nope. However I do think that a) a sizeable sections of the Tories were genuinely surprised at the referendum result and b) I don’t think that Brexit is an anti capitalist act .


----------



## NoXion (Mar 26, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> What does it matter which country the owner of a business is registered in?



Besides, it's not like the EU ever did anything to prevent the private ownership of critical national infrastructure. Like for example those Euro train companies creaming a fat profit off ridiculous train ticket prices in this country.


----------



## bimble (Mar 26, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Nope. However I do think that a) a sizeable sections of the Tories were genuinely surprised at the referendum result and b) I don’t think that Brexit is an anti capitalist act .


Sure, even Nigel patron saint of leave was astonished that night.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 26, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> What does it matter which country the owner of a business is registered in?


the amount of tax they pay for example


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 26, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> A simple google on ‘British ‘ brands , untilities and a number of landmark assets gives a frightening indication of foreign ownership in the U.K.  decades before Brexit or this government.




Apparently that is embarrassing. Not quite sure what mindset you need to give a flying fuck, let alone feel actual embarrassment over such a thing.


----------



## 8ball (Mar 26, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Apparently that is embarrassing. Not quite sure what mindset you need to give a flying fuck, let alone feel actual embarrassment over such a thing.



Well for one thing it says something about how much "control" there was to take back.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 26, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> the amount of tax they pay for example



Zero times anything is zero, so doesn't really matter. The idea that Nissan is a Japanese company and therefore the Sunderland plant causes embarrassment is just weird.


----------



## brogdale (Mar 26, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> the amount of tax they pay for example


Probably not much, tbh, but it does determine which jurisdiction receives the tiny sums that the corporations can't evade/dodge/avoid.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 26, 2021)

8ball said:


> Well for one thing it says something about how much "control" there was to take back.



It shows global thinking.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Mar 26, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Meanwhile in the frictionless trade paradise of France where farmers can work, study and visit 27 different countries




Farmers are universally shafted it’s just the French ones riot.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 26, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Zero times anything is zero, so doesn't really matter. The idea that Nissan is a Japanese company and therefore the Sunderland plant causes embarrassment is just weird.


so much about contemporary britain causes embarrassment, i wouldn't have had the sunderland plant in my top 40 myself.


----------



## 8ball (Mar 26, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> It shows global thinking.



It shows the desire to avoid tax and the degree of relevance our Government(s) attach to that.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Mar 26, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> A simple google on ‘British ‘ brands , untilities and a number of landmark assets gives a frightening indication of foreign ownership in the U.K.  decades before Brexit or this government.



Yes but Brexit is about Taking Back Control from forrins.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 26, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Yes but Brexit is about Taking Back Control from forrins.




In the minds of morons, yes.


----------



## TopCat (Mar 26, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Farmers are universally shafted it’s just the French ones riot.


Loads of UK farmers and landowners got fortunes in set aside payments from the EU. Something I am glad has ended post brexit.


----------



## ddraig (Mar 26, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Farmers are universally shafted it’s just the French ones riot.


They just love to moan a lot and get subsidies, too wet, too dry, produced to much, produced too little blah blah


----------



## Raheem (Mar 26, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Lol. Point out that another nation or the EU has got something right and it’s credit where it’s due. Do the same with the U.K. and it’s Land of Hope and Glory flag waving!


Come off it, this is a jingoistic caricature:



Spymaster said:


> The entire UK procurement strategy with AstraZeneca has been professionally managed and invested in, with contracts locked-down in English law; whilst the EU's has been half-arsed, unprofessional, and contracted in wishy-washy Belgian law.



Whatever may or may not have gone on, it's not to do with EU civil servants turning up to work unshaven, and still less about the superiority of the English legal tradition.

It's pretty obvious that the UK has out-smarted/out-arseholed (it's as broad as long) the EU wrt to AZ procurement. There's no need to recount that. Probably annoying and embarrassing for EU, but it's also a storm in a teacup, because there's neither the UK or the EU are likely to run into a shortage of the vaccine at any point (the difference for EU countries is slower distribution, not supply).

No-one ought to be banning vaccine exports, and for the EU to be talking about it is unnecessary and a (possibly deliberate) distraction.

However, to be crowing about the predictable wickedness and incompetence of the EU's proposed ban on the one hand while, on the other, celebrating the genius of the UK doing it first (which it did - the fact that exports may be allowed a some distant point in the future doesn't make it not a ban) is ridiculous, and it most definitely is buying into a flag-waving narrative.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 26, 2021)

Raheem said:


> Come off it, this is a jingoistic caricature:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


the idea of Spymaster climbing into bed with boris johnson is a mental image no one desires


----------



## editor (Mar 26, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> In the minds of morons, yes.


Taking Back Control was one of the key mantras from the pre-Brexit campaigners, so are you saying that they're morons?


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Mar 26, 2021)

editor said:


> Taking Back Control was one of the key mantras from the pre-Brexit campaigners, so are you saying that they're morons?



My understanding is that ‘Take back control’ related to a trading bloc and set of economic arrangements and political treaties and not a country or people.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 26, 2021)

Raheem said:


> However, to be crowing about the predictable wickedness and incompetence of the EU's proposed ban on the one hand while, on the other, celebrating the genius of the UK doing it first (which it did - the fact that exports may be allowed a some distant point in the future doesn't make it not a ban) is ridiculous, and it most definitely is buying into a flag-waving narrative.



Sorry but this is just absolute nonsense as already explained in detail. You'll get a few likes from others who are similarly stranded though   

Ask yourself this; what is your motivation in insisting on calling the contractual commitment an export ban? Why are you so keen to characterize it as such?   

No need to answer really


----------



## Artaxerxes (Mar 26, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> In the minds of morons, yes.



That was explicit in the marketing and to say otherwise is rewriting history.

I don’t ever deny there were legit reasons for voting leave but when your marketing is set on blaming immigrants, the Eu and has Take Back Control as a key marketing pledge a pattern emerges.



TopCat said:


> Loads of UK farmers and landowners got fortunes in set aside payments from the EU. Something I am glad has ended post brexit.



Yes but plenty of poorer farmers exist. We shall see what happens with the subsidys


----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 26, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> the idea of Spymaster climbing into bed with boris johnson is a mental image no one desires



Well, thanks for planting that image in my head.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 26, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Loads of UK farmers and landowners got fortunes in set aside payments from the EU. Something I am glad has ended post brexit.


we are not post brexit. it will be ongoing for years and years


----------



## TopCat (Mar 26, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> That was explicit in the marketing and to say otherwise is rewriting history.
> 
> I don’t ever deny there were legit reasons for voting leave but when your marketing is set on blaming immigrants, the Eu and has Take Back Control as a key marketing pledge a pattern emerges.
> 
> ...


You claimed farmers are universally shafted. It’s not the case.


----------



## brogdale (Mar 26, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> My understanding is that ‘Take back control’ related to a trading bloc and set of economic arrangements and political treaties and not a country or people.


I think that, since the referendum, the accepted mantra from the right party of capital has been _Britain would take back full control of our money, our borders and our laws._


----------



## gosub (Mar 26, 2021)

bimble said:


> Sure, even Nigel patron saint of leave was astonished that night.



Or wasn't and is guilty of currency manipulation


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 26, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> My understanding is that ‘Take back control’ related to a trading bloc and set of economic arrangements and political treaties and not a country or people.


what is a country or its people if not its relationship to other countries and peoples?


----------



## gosub (Mar 26, 2021)

brogdale said:


> I think that, since the referendum, the accepted mantra from the right party of capital has been _Britain would take back full control of our money, our borders and our laws._



Could have sworn it was "Fuck Business"


----------



## Artaxerxes (Mar 26, 2021)

TopCat said:


> You claimed farmers are universally shafted. It’s not the case.



It depends how we define farmers. Prince Charles owns farms but he’s not a farmer. Same for so many of the larger landowners.


They like to pretend to be horny handed sons of the soil but it’s the tenants on their land doing the work. Meanwhile the supermarkets are busy fucking over smaller farmers and paying peanuts


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Mar 26, 2021)

brogdale said:


> I think that, since the referendum, the accepted mantra from the right party of capital has been _Britain would take back full control of our money, our borders and our laws._



Editor was raising the slogan of the ‘pre-Brexit’ campaigners


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Mar 26, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> we are not post brexit. it will be ongoing for years and years



On Urban it’ll be ongoing forever


----------



## brogdale (Mar 26, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Editor was raising the slogan of the ‘pre-Brexit’ campaigners


Oh, that?
Well that was deliberately unspecific, wasn't it?
The genius of the marketing...allowing punters to perceive whatever they wanted.


----------



## brogdale (Mar 26, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> On Urban it’ll be ongoing forever


A bit like the ravens at the Tower...if the threads ever leave....


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 26, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> On Urban it’ll be ongoing forever


there's been no agreement about services yet, we've that to look forwards to

here's a few things coming up


----------



## Yossarian (Mar 26, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I’m thinking of running of some T shirts off with the January trade figures on, stick an EU flag on and maybe a quote on from Blair/Campbell/Geldof/the CBI/the IMF/Cameron.



And they tried to tell us Brexit wouldn't create jobs.


----------



## TopCat (Mar 26, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> On Urban it’ll be ongoing forever


An ever dwindling group, depleted each year by entropy, meeting up, all spick and span to reaffirm their undying hatred for every single leave voter and the horse they rode in on.
They play the EU anthem, then go home, each taking a different path.


----------



## Saul Goodman (Mar 26, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Loads of UK farmers and landowners got fortunes in set aside payments from the EU. Something I am glad has ended post brexit.


Farmers get (got) all sorts of subsidies. I have a friend who's a farmer. Well, I say he's a farmer, he isn't, he just has land that his father left him, and he claims every grant possible for it (can't blame him if its there for the taking). His latest one was bat boxes. He got a grant for putting up bat boxes around the land. Another time he got a grant for putting up new fences, because his were fucked, and grants for tidying the land, adding lime to the soil, etc.
Madness isn't it, but what's going to replace those grants? The UK government aren't going to hand out money like toffee to farmers, and supermarkets have farmers fucked financially, so their only choice will be to raise prices or jack it in. I can see loads doing the latter, and only the big farmers surviving. Not sure how I feel about that, but it's probably not a good thing.


----------



## Saul Goodman (Mar 26, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> the idea of Spymaster climbing into bed with boris johnson is a mental image no one desires



I might...


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 26, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> the idea of Spymaster climbing into bed with boris johnson is a mental image no one desires


Except Boris.


----------



## Saul Goodman (Mar 26, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Except Boris.


... and me.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 26, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> That was explicit in the marketing and to say otherwise is rewriting history.



Yes that was the slogan, if you understood it to mean 'taking back control from forrins' then you're a moron.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 26, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Yes that was the slogan, if you understood it to mean 'taking back control from forrins' then you're a moron.


Who else is there to take control back from?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 26, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Who else is there to take control back from?



What, not who:

An unaccountable, lumbering bureaucracy.


----------



## Saul Goodman (Mar 26, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Who else is there to take control back from?


The EU?


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 26, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> What, not who:
> 
> An unaccountable, lumbering lizard bureaucracy.


c4u


----------



## bimble (Mar 26, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Oh, that?
> Well that was deliberately unspecific, wasn't it?
> The genius of the marketing...allowing punters to perceive whatever they wanted.


It was absolute genius I think, the take back control slogan.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 26, 2021)

bimble said:


> It was absolute genius I think, the take back control slogan.



As was Get Brexit Done.

Remain had: 'Britain stronger in Europe' - which as well as missing a comma, just sounds soggy and wet.


----------



## Raheem (Mar 26, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Ask yourself this; what is your motivation in insisting on calling the contractual commitment an export ban? Why are you so keen to characterize it as such?


It's because I don't think in Daily Express headlines, and I also don't subscribe to the somewhat ultra-neoliberal idea that restrictions in commercial contracts are private and inviolable, whereas state intervention is tyranny. In this case, there is zero practical difference.

Astrazeneca 
is currently 
operating under 
a government-imposed
ban
on exporting
vaccine
to foreign buyers
without exception.

It is how it quacks.


----------



## bimble (Mar 26, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> As was Get Brexit Done.
> 
> Remain had: 'Britain stronger in Europe' - which as well as missing a comma, just sounds soggy and wet.


Take Back Control operated on so many levels, get brexit done less inspired, imo.

I keep thinking about how come there was such a massive majority to join in the 1st place, in the 70s, am amazed by it tbh, is anyone old enough to know how joining the EU was sold so well to the public back then? 
(yes too lazy to google, it’s my bday and I’m painting the bathroom walls).


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 26, 2021)

Three words, four syllables, imperative form of the verb. They're both perfectly crafted slogans. 

Depressing really that a skilled tabloid headline writer may have made all the difference.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 26, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Three words, four syllables, imperative form of the verb. They're both perfectly crafted slogans.
> 
> Depressing really that a skilled tabloid headline writer may have made all the difference.




Make.America.Great

Again.


Also worked very well.


----------



## Raheem (Mar 26, 2021)

bimble said:


> It was absolute genius I think, the take back control slogan.


It was a good slogan, but there's also no slogan you could ever come up with that would have made remain not boring.


----------



## Yossarian (Mar 26, 2021)

Some ads were a little clearer about what they wanted to take back control of.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 26, 2021)

Raheem said:


> It's because I don't think in Daily Express headlines ...


It'd be helpful if you read something other than The Guardian though.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 26, 2021)

bimble said:


> Take Back Control operated on so many levels, get brexit done less inspired, imo.
> 
> I keep thinking about how come there was such a massive majority to join in the 1st place, in the 70s, am amazed by it tbh, is anyone old enough to know how joining the EU was sold so well to the public back then?
> (yes too lazy to google, it’s my bday and I’m painting the bathroom walls).


no one sold joining the eu in the 70s as the eu was only formed in the 90s

in the 1970s it was the common market or european economic community.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 26, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> It'd be helpful if you read something other than The Guardian though.


even the guardian surely


----------



## Raheem (Mar 26, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> It'd be helpful if you read something other than The Guardian though.


2/10 for bothering.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 26, 2021)

Raheem said:


> 2/10 for bothering.


1/10 for replying


----------



## Raheem (Mar 26, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> 1/10 for replying


10/10 just because.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 26, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> Some ads were a little clearer about what they wanted to take back control of.
> 
> View attachment 260399


And not just UKIP. Let's not forget that Johnson was explicit with his anti-Eastern European racism during the last election.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 26, 2021)

Raheem said:


> 10/10 just because.


that shows a nice spirit


----------



## brogdale (Mar 26, 2021)

bimble said:


> It was absolute genius I think, the take back control slogan.


The genius was, of course, not only it's malleability and _all things to all men _quality, but it's allusion to agency for those who'd had their faces stamped on for nearly half a century.


----------



## kebabking (Mar 26, 2021)

bimble said:


> Take Back Control operated on so many levels, get brexit done less inspired, imo.
> 
> I keep thinking about how come there was such a massive majority to join in the 1st place, in the 70s, am amazed by it tbh, is anyone old enough to know how joining the EU was sold so well to the public back then?
> (yes too lazy to google, it’s my bday and I’m painting the bathroom walls).



Not that I was born, but iirc, the selling points were that joining the EC was like walking into a really big supermarket, and the 'Europe together' idea was fairly well grasped by a huge swathe of the population, most of whom had very vivid memories of major European land wars.

If someone offered me the EC of the 70's I'd take it like a tramp on hot chips...


----------



## brogdale (Mar 26, 2021)

kebabking said:


> Not that I was born, but iirc, the selling points were that joining the EC was like walking into a really big supermarket, and the 'Europe together' idea was fairly well grasped by a huge swathe of the population, most of whom had very vivid memories of major European land wars.
> 
> If someone offered me the EC of the 70's I'd take it like a tramp on hot chips...


My memory (albeit only teenage) was that the arguments deployed to ratify the 1973 accession were more traditionally based in consolidating on the social contract; trade, business, jobs, incomes and security.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 26, 2021)

kebabking said:


> Not that I was born, but iirc, the selling points were that joining the EC was like walking into a really big supermarket, and the 'Europe together' idea was fairly well grasped by a huge swathe of the population, most of whom had very vivid memories of major European land wars.
> 
> If someone offered me the EC of the 70's I'd take it like a tramp on hot chips...


Also, the EEC wasn't the EU as we know it now. Maastricht, Lisbon etc came much later. 

There was some resonance in the leave campaign with older people - my mum and dad, eg - who say they 'only' voted for a common market in the 70s. Aside from the anti-immigrant stuff, which was the most important factor of all, let's face it, this was also encapsulated by the Take Back Control narrative.


----------



## andysays (Mar 26, 2021)

bimble said:


> It was absolute genius I think, the take back control slogan.


It was, and part of its genius was that it could be interpreted in many different ways by different people.

One of those ways is certainly taking back control from "foreigners", and that was clearly intended by the authors of the phrase and was undeniably responded to by significant Leave voters. But it could also mean taking back control from the supra-national EU bureaucracy, and that too had a substantial resonance among many of those who are not inherently anti-foreigner.

Taking back control could even refer to the workers taking control away from the supra-national EU bureaucratic state, the UK state and the multi-national capitalist concerns which currently combine to control most aspects of our lives. I don't think the authors of the Brexit campaign had that particular meaning in mind though.


----------



## editor (Mar 26, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Make.America.Great
> 
> Again.
> 
> ...


That also worked well at stirring up racism, jingoism and xenophobia.


----------



## andysays (Mar 26, 2021)

bimble said:


> Take Back Control operated on so many levels, get brexit done less inspired, imo.
> 
> I keep thinking about how come there was such a massive majority to join in the 1st place, in the 70s, am amazed by it tbh, is anyone old enough to know how joining the EU was sold so well to the public back then?
> (yes too lazy to google, it’s my bday and I’m painting the bathroom walls).


Just to correct an apparent misapprehension on your part, the referendum in 1975 wasn't about joining the Common Market, it was about whether Britain should remain a member, having joined in 1973.

And (like the more recent one) it largely came about because the then-governing party was internally split and the PM saw it as a way of papering over the split by getting the backing of the electorate against some in the party. On that occasion, it worked...


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Mar 26, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> Some ads were a little clearer about what they wanted to take back control of.
> 
> View attachment 260399



We’ve gone from a claim about ‘forrins’ (note smug superiority in the spelling: Look! Leave voters are thick!), to an erroneous and misleading claim about the slogan of the official campaign to a UKIP poster.  All in the space of two pages.

Nobody could ever accuse remain supporters of consistency...


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 26, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> We’ve gone from a claim about ‘forrins’ (note smug superiority in the spelling: Look! Leave voters are thick!), to an erroneous and misleading claim about the slogan of the official campaign to a UKIP poster.  All in the space of two pages.
> 
> Nobody could ever accuse remain supporters of consistency...


This seems a little confused. Did people only pay attention to the _official_ leave campaign material? UKIP very deliberately used the slogan in that racist ad. UKIP were not bit-players in this.


----------



## MrSki (Mar 26, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> And not just UKIP. Let's not forget that Johnson was explicit with his anti-Eastern European racism during the last election.


But Leave were more than happy to take Russian money. 

No idea why Putin would want to split the EU.

So along with Murdoch, Putin The then Barclay brothers & Viscount Rothermere (All fine defenders of the British working class ) Steve Bannon & various hedge fund managers & those with large investments in tax havens is there anyone else who directly benefitted?


----------



## prunus (Mar 26, 2021)

Raheem said:


> It was a good slogan, but there's also no slogan you could ever come up with that would have made remain not boring.



Stick Rees-Mogg up Farage's Arse and Set Fire to The Rancid Pair of Them.

More than 4 syllables.  But good persuading power I think.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Mar 26, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> This seems a little confused. Did people only pay attention to the _official_ leave campaign material? UKIP very deliberately used the slogan in that racist ad. UKIP were not bit-players in this.



No no, all Leave voters voted clearly and rationally and any whiff of xenophobia is purely in Remain voters imaginations so they should get over it.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Mar 26, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> This seems a little confused. Did people only pay attention to the _official_ leave campaign material? UKIP very deliberately used the slogan in that racist ad. UKIP were not bit-players in this.



Brexit was at root and in actuality about the exit of the UK from a set of economic and political arrangements. It was not about ‘forrins’, taking control back from ‘forrins’ or even leaving Europe (despite what the piss poor scare mongerer Macron thinks). So, as this past few pages of debate show there is indeed ‘confusion’ - but not on my part


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Mar 26, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Remain voters imaginations so they should get over it.



Finally, some sense...


----------



## editor (Mar 26, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Brexit was at root and in actuality about the exit of the UK from a set of economic and political arrangements. It was not about ‘forrins’, taking control back from ‘forrins’ or even leaving Europe (despite what the piss poor scare mongerer Macron thinks). So, as this past few pages of debate show there is indeed ‘confusion’ - but not on my part


Seems there is, you know. 









						Brexit is strongly linked to xenophobia, according to scientists
					

‘I think the Leave campaign gave a new, acceptable way to express xenophobia’




					www.independent.co.uk
				












						Brexit 'major influence' in racism and hate crime rise
					

Community officers are being appointed around Wales to help deal with "tensions" in some areas.



					www.bbc.co.uk
				












						The Truth About Brexit and Xenophobia
					

The push to leave the European Union was never about anything but immigration




					medium.com
				












						Brexit is Not Just about Exiting the European Union: A Reading List
					

The United Kingdom’s withdrawal from the European Union is indicative of not only its own narrow self-perception but also of the rise of an anti-immigration and racist stance put forth by right-wing groups. .tb_button {padding:1px;cursor:pointer;border-right: 1px solid #8b8b8b;border-left: 1px...




					www.epw.in


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 26, 2021)

editor said:


> Seems there is, you know.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


what would be nice is if you could explain why you've selected these articles, some of which are several years auld, and if you could perhaps square the circle between your number 3 ('the push to leave the european union was never about anything but immigration') with the way that the financial backers of the leave campaign have made money from the departure and have subsequently influenced policy (see eg Boris, Brexit and the Hedge Funds (Part 1) for the first, and Why Boris Johnson's Funding from Hedge Funds is a Matter of Public Interest – Byline Times and Brexit Disaster Capitalism: Are Boris Johnson's Hedge Fund Backers Driving Policy? – Byline Times for the second). seems to me that this was much more likely about persuading people to do one thing so that another set of people could make a lot of money out of it than your 'it's all racism' which seems to me a facile analysis.

what's apparent from the past six years is that xenophobia increased during and after the referendum. but was this pre-existing sentiment only unleashed after the encouragement of the right-wing press, or was it new hate which was whipped up by the likes of the farage and johnson leave campaign and their supporters in the mainstream media?


----------



## brogdale (Mar 26, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Brexit was at root and in actuality about the exit of the UK from a set of economic and political arrangements. It was not about ‘forrins’, taking control back from ‘forrins’ or even leaving Europe (despite what the piss poor scare mongerer Macron thinks). So, as this past few pages of debate show there is indeed ‘confusion’ - but not on my part


All true but, as in all elections, the electorate will have many varying levels of appreciation or perception about the key issues involved. It would be wrong to deny that for many Leave voters concerns about immigration was a key driver. Post polling has consistently demonstrated that many Leave voters were motivated to vote by the opportunity to halt FoM/in-migration of EU nationals.

And as for confusion, yes there was, understandably, plenty out there. In all honesty what % of the electorate is in a position to analyse the merits of varying trade arrangements, so it was no surprise that affective drivers often came to the fore including the perceived desire for sovereignty. Although, I remember at the time having conversations with more than one near neighbour in which it emerged that their concerns around sovereignty were about "our right to keep the Queen".

Denying any of this on the grounds of class solidarity just looks absurd and intellectually remote.


----------



## editor (Mar 26, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> what's apparent from the past six years is that xenophobia increased during and after the referendum. but was this pre-existing sentiment only unleashed after the encouragement of the right-wing press, or was it new hate which was whipped up by the likes of the farage and johnson leave campaign and their supporters in the mainstream media?


Both.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 26, 2021)

editor said:


> Both.


but no defence of the articles selected in post 1033 i note.


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 26, 2021)

brogdale said:


> All true but, as in all elections, the electorate will have many varying levels of appreciation or perception about the key issues involved. It would be wrong to deny that for many Leave voters concerns about immigration was a key driver. Post polling has consistently demonstrated that many Leave voters were motivated to vote by the opportunity to halt FoM/in-migration of EU nationals.
> 
> And as for confusion, yes there was, understandably, plenty out there. In all honesty what % of the electorate is in a position to analyse the merits of varying trade arrangement, so it was no surprise that affective drivers often came to the for including the perceived desire for sovereignty. Although, I remember at the time having conversations with more than one near neighbour in which it emerged that their concerns around sovereignty were about "our right to keep the Queen".
> 
> Denying any of this on the grounds of class solidarity just looks absurd and intellectually remote.


To be concerned about immigration and FOM isn’t necessarily racist .


----------



## gosub (Mar 26, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> what would be nice is if you could explain why you've selected these articles, some of which are several years auld, and if you could perhaps square the circle between your number 3 ('the push to leave the european union was never about anything but immigration') with the way that the financial backers of the leave campaign have made money from the departure and have subsequently influenced policy (see eg Boris, Brexit and the Hedge Funds (Part 1) for the first, and Why Boris Johnson's Funding from Hedge Funds is a Matter of Public Interest – Byline Times and Brexit Disaster Capitalism: Are Boris Johnson's Hedge Fund Backers Driving Policy? – Byline Times for the second). seems to me that this was much more likely about persuading people to do one thing so that another set of people could make a lot of money out of it than your 'it's all racism' which seems to me a facile analysis.
> overturn
> what's apparent from the past six years is that xenophobia increased during and after the referendum. but was this pre-existing sentiment only unleashed after the encouragement of the right-wing press, or was it new hate which was whipped up by the likes of the farage and johnson leave campaign and their supporters in the mainstream media?



The problem, I think, was that the referendum win felt like it gave the xenophobic element licence AND those whom sort to overturn  the referendum thought talking about that dead cat was helpful to their cause...all the other aspects of the thing (of which there are many and of some import) got lost in noise and fractious framing


----------



## gosub (Mar 26, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> To be concerned about immigration and FOM isn’t necessarily racist .


To be concerned about immigration and FOM isn’t necessarily racist but


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 26, 2021)

gosub said:


> To be concerned about immigration and FOM isn’t necessarily racist but


i don't suppose all racists are concerned with immigration, nor all those concerned with immigration are racists. but the overlap's quite noticeable.


----------



## brogdale (Mar 26, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> To be concerned about immigration and FOM isn’t necessarily racist .


Quite so and, tbf, neither Smokeandsteam nor myself were talking about racism, (I think?).
But, of course, concerns about immigration/FoM can emerge and be cultivated and exploited from racist views.
That was Farage's MO, and I'm sure that the official 'clean-skin' Leave campaign were well aware of the advantages in having an out-rider campaign willing to exploit xenophobia and drive voters to their box on the ballot paper.


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 26, 2021)

gosub said:


> To be concerned about immigration and FOM isn’t necessarily racist but


But what ? I’ve never supported open borders.


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 26, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Quite so and, tbf, neither Smokeandsteam nor myself were talking about racism, (I think?).
> But, of course, concerns about immigration/FoM can emerge and be cultivated and exploited from racist views.
> That was Farage's MO, and I'm sure that the official 'clean-skin' Leave campaign were well aware of the advantages in having an out-rider campaign willing to exploit xenophobia and drive voters to their box on the ballot paper.


Sure .Wouldn’t think that anyone would disagree with that especially with the claim that Turkey would be joining the EU.


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 26, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> i don't suppose all racists are concerned with immigration, nor all those concerned with immigration are racists. but the overlap's quite noticeable.


Pickman’s Gordon Brown moment


----------



## gosub (Mar 26, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> But what ? I’ve never supported open borders.


Fair enough.


----------



## brogdale (Mar 26, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Sure .Wouldn’t think that anyone would disagree with that especially with the claim that Turkey would be joining the EU.


It was one of the _80m Muslims from Turkey! _brigade ranting outside Foyles that led me into my only toe-to-toe standup row with the racists during 2016.


----------



## gosub (Mar 26, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Pickman’s Gordon Brown moment


which Gordon Brown moment? He had a few over different things over the years


----------



## MrSki (Mar 26, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Sure .Wouldn’t think that anyone would disagree with that especially with the claim that Turkey would be joining the EU.


It wasn't just Turkey.


----------



## gosub (Mar 26, 2021)

brogdale said:


> It was one of the _80m Muslims from Turkey! _brigade ranting outside Foyles that led me into my only toe-to-toe standup row with the racists during 2016.



Most the recent Turkish influx is the more secular end running away from Erodgen


----------



## brogdale (Mar 26, 2021)

gosub said:


> Most the recent Turkish influx is the more secular end running away from Erodgen


Funnily enough, that's not what the Nazi cunt was shouting.


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 26, 2021)

MrSki said:


> It wasn't just Turkey.


Aren’t most of those still on the EUs reserve list ?


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 26, 2021)

gosub said:


> which Gordon Brown moment? He had a few over different things over the years


The one where he was overhead to say ‘what a terrible woman’ after he was confronted by a Labour voter complaining about immigration .


----------



## MrSki (Mar 26, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Aren’t most of those still on the EUs reserve list ?


Very possibly but before the UK left there was a veto that could block anyone joining.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 26, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> The one where he was overhead to say ‘what a terrible woman’ after he was confronted by a Labour voter complaining about immigration .


I'm not saying anyone's terrible


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 26, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Aren’t most of those still on the EUs reserve list ?


Turkey won't be joining the EU for decades if ever. The others on the list have a combined population of just over 10 million. 

As usual when a question is asked rhetorically in a headline/slogan, the answer is 'no'.


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 26, 2021)

MrSki said:


> Very possibly but before the UK left there was a veto that could block anyone joining.


Let’s face it it was nip and tuck that they let Greece join.


----------



## brogdale (Mar 26, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> The one where he was overhead to say ‘what a terrible woman’ after he was confronted by a Labour voter complaining about immigration .


"She was just a sort of bigoted woman who said she used to be Labour" was the key phrase, I think.


----------



## MrSki (Mar 26, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Let’s face it it was nip and tuck that they let Greece join.


It was probably the popularity of Greek holidays & ownership of Greek property that swung that one.


----------



## editor (Mar 26, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> To be concerned about immigration and FOM isn’t necessarily racist .


Mind that slippery slope.


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 26, 2021)

editor said:


> Mind that slippery slope.


Mind the gap


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Mar 26, 2021)

editor said:


> Mind that slippery slope.



Yup. One day you oppose open borders and the next you are goosestepping around the place.

That’s _literally_ how it works..


----------



## editor (Mar 26, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Yup. One day you oppose open borders and the next you are goosestepping around the place.
> 
> That’s _literally_ how it works..


Thanks for sharing that.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Mar 26, 2021)

editor said:


> Thanks for sharing that.



I felt that I had to having read yours...


----------



## mojo pixy (Mar 26, 2021)

I wonder if there are any other slippery slopes we should mind? Say, one that starts with people in the UK getting cheap consumer goods grown / made by poor people overseas, and ends at slavery and systemic racism for generations. Or one that starts with forever enemies and ends with _no war but class war_. Watch out for that one.


----------



## Flavour (Mar 26, 2021)

Anyway if meat exports to the EU collapse that is a good thing, fuck meat


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 26, 2021)

bimble said:


> Take Back Control operated on so many levels, get brexit done less inspired, imo.
> 
> I keep thinking about how come there was such a massive majority to join in the 1st place, in the 70s, am amazed by it tbh, is anyone old enough to know how joining the EU was sold so well to the public back then?
> (yes too lazy to google, it’s my bday and I’m painting the bathroom walls).


Cheaper washing machines and fresh croissants.


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 26, 2021)

brogdale said:


> My memory (albeit only teenage) was that the arguments deployed to ratify the 1973 accession were more traditionally based in consolidating on the social contract; trade, business, jobs, incomes and security.





> In all honesty what % of the electorate is in a position to analyse the merits of varying trade arrangements,


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 26, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Cheaper washing machines and fresh croissants.


Bigger toilets longer chains


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 26, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Bigger toilets longer chains


Actually, I remember going to France around that time and being shocked at the toilets.


----------



## gosub (Mar 26, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> we are not post brexit. it will be ongoing for years and years



We are (just about) past peak Post-Brexit though


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 26, 2021)

So editor are you going to defend your claim it was all about immigration or have you slunk away again?


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 26, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Actually, I remember going to France around that time and being shocked at the toilets.


Some of them are in a shocking state


----------



## brogdale (Mar 26, 2021)

The39thStep said:


>


Come on, you're better than 

Even if we are after beer/wine o'clock, say what you mean/think.


----------



## gosub (Mar 26, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Actually, I remember going to France around that time and being shocked at the toilets.


I remember getting used to Celtic tiger Irish pub loos then coming back to the UK and being appalled


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 26, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Come on, you're better than
> 
> Even if we after beer/wine o'clock, say what you mean/think.


Not sure what the first bit of your second sentence means tbh.  I just thought it odd that after posting something about voters not fully understanding the complexity of trade deals in the 2016 referendum that you came out with fully fledged analysis of the 1972 one from what you remembered as a teenager. My recollections of the referendum as a teenager was that overnight we would be eating European food and drinking from  tables on the pavement.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Mar 26, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> So editor are you going to defend your claim it was all about immigration or have you slunk away again?



I think we all know the answer to that question.


----------



## brogdale (Mar 26, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Not sure what the first bit of your second sentence means tbh.  I just thought it odd that after posting something about voters not fully understanding the complexity of trade deals in the 2016 referendum that you came out with fully fledged analysis of the 1972 one from what you remembered as a teenager. My recollections of the referendum as a teenager was that overnight we would be eating European food and drinking from  tables on the pavement.


Inevitably memory from that time may well be unreliable, and I suspect that what I'm recalling is largely through the prism of what I heard from my family members who were old enough to vote in 1975. I vividly recall my Dad saying that he didn't know all the ins and outs of the matter but had a gut reaction (possibly typical of the war-child cohort?) that voting Yes to the EEC would mean that life would be better for me & the other kids.

That said, I do think that I remember the 'Yes' campaign as being very strongly focussed on jobs, pay, job security and living standards.


----------



## Maggot (Mar 26, 2021)

My heart bleeds for this former Brexit party member who now wants compensation for the damage Brexit has done to his salmon smoking business. 









						Pro-Brexit salmon smoker Lance Forman wants industry compensated for Brexit-related costs | Intrafish
					

Lance Forman, a former Brexit Party member of the European Parliament, said that the UK government should compensate the seafood industry for Brexit-related dis




					www.intrafish.com


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 26, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I think we all know the answer to that question.


brave sir robin ran away innit


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Mar 26, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> brave sir robin ran away innit



Maybe he’s away looking for some more articles from 5 years ago - that add nothing - to post?


----------



## MrSki (Mar 26, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I think we all know the answer to that question.


Certainly a large proportion of the billions of facebook ads targeted at millions of users were using race & immigration to scare the potential voters who had had their data stolen to influence the vote. If the referendum had been held in Switzerland (the home of referenda) it would have been declared null & void because of the lies & overspend from the leave side of things. 
I am not saying that the majority voted on fears about immigration but judging by the ads they were targeted with I expect it played a large part. Along with those that wanted to protect polar bears of course.


----------



## Maggot (Mar 26, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> So editor are you going to defend your claim it was all about immigration or have you slunk away again?





Smokeandsteam said:


> I think we all know the answer to that question.


Coming from someone who keeps slinking away themself.


----------



## MrSki (Mar 26, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Maybe he’s away looking for some more articles from 5 years ago - that add nothing - to post?


Maybe he is on the shitter or having his tea. FFS give the bloke a break he is not on 24 hour callout to answer your posts.


----------



## Raheem (Mar 26, 2021)

MrSki said:


> Maybe he is on the shitter or having his tea. FFS give the bloke a break he is not on 24 hour callout to answer your posts.


The Mode Oath includes a promise always to take your phone to the shitter.


----------



## Yossarian (Mar 26, 2021)

I'd forgotten just how terrible the Remain ads were, they'd probably have won if they'd spent the  money bribing Tony Blair etc. to STFU.









						EU referendum campaigns' most memorable ads
					

As the UK decides whether to continue or end its membership of the European Union, Campaign has collected the most memorable ads from the campaign.




					www.campaignlive.co.uk


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Mar 26, 2021)

Maggot said:


> Coming from someone who keeps slinking away themself.



Pardon?


----------



## Maggot (Mar 26, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Pardon?


After calling remainers 'politically unmoored' and demanding that we come up with some well written pieces on Tuesday, you slinked away until today. Probably hoping we'd forget about your embarrassing posts.


----------



## gosub (Mar 26, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> I'd forgotten just how terrible the Remain ads were, they'd probably have won if they'd spent the  money bribing Tony Blair etc. to STFU.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I thought they lost because they failed to convince enough of the youth to take time off from their workin, learnin, earnin, shoppin, ravin to cast their ballot.


----------



## editor (Mar 26, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> So editor are you going to defend your claim it was all about immigration or have you slunk away again?


Exactly where did I make the claim that is was "all" about immigration?

Back it up or slink away.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 26, 2021)

editor said:


> Exactly where did I make the claim that is was "all" about immigration?
> 
> Back it up or slink away.


how utterly pitiful


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Mar 26, 2021)

Maggot said:


> After calling remainers 'politically unmoored' and demanding that we come up with some well written pieces on Tuesday, you slinked away until today. Probably hoping we'd forget about your embarrassing posts.



Well, I’m still waiting for some well written remain thinking, a strategy, an engaged piece of work written in the now. Instead, we’ve had the same food and drink federation January export data *three *times, some dribble from 5 years ago, a bizarre diversion about ‘forrins’ and a suggestion that unless you support the unfettered movement of goods and people then membership of a fascist group is almost inevitable.

And you lecture me on embarrassing posts.....


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 26, 2021)

editor said:


> Seems there is, you know.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The third of the four articles here


----------



## editor (Mar 26, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> how utterly pitiful


Stop wriggling and find a post where I clearly and unequivocally stated that is was "all" about immigration.  Off you go.


----------



## editor (Mar 26, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> The third of the four articles here


I was linking to an article as a reference and not quoting myself.  Want to try again?


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 26, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> The third of the four articles here


A study based on a sample of 250 people ? Have I read this right ?


----------



## editor (Mar 26, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> A study based on a sample of 250 people ? Have I read this right ?


Do you think that Brexit played absolutely no part in stocking xenophobia then?


----------



## MrSki (Mar 26, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Well, I’m still waiting for some well written remain thinking, a strategy, an engaged piece of work written in the now. Instead, we’ve had the same food and drink federation January export data *three *times, some dribble from 5 years ago, a bizarre diversion about ‘forrins’ and a suggestion that unless you support the unfettered movement of goods and people then membership of a fascist group is almost inevitable.
> 
> And you lecture me on embarrassing posts.....


Well can you supply the figures for after January? How well is it going? No cos you have to wait a couple of months till you can rub my nose in how brilliant Brexit is for your average person without an off shore bank account. 
Look at who backed and paid for the Brexit campaign & see yourself on the side of the far right if you are justifying those that voted Brexit to give the establishment a bloody nose then you are the much mistaken. It is the tax dodging establishment who will benefit from this and not your average person on the street.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 26, 2021)

editor said:


> I was linking to an article as a reference and not quoting myself.  Want to try again?


you were linking to that article not as a neutral reference but because it agreed with the case stated that this was about the forrins. do you actually disagree that it's all about immigration? i have asked you to say why you selected those articles. but you've refused to.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 26, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> A study based on a sample of 250 people ? Have I read this right ?


best ask editor, he feels it bolsters his pov


----------



## editor (Mar 26, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> you were linking to that article not as a neutral reference but because it agreed with the case stated that this was about the forrins. do you actually disagree that it's all about immigration? i have asked you to say why you selected those articles. but you've refused to.


You can't back up your argument because it's bullshit. But to repeat myself again: I think immigration played a part in some people voting for Brexit and the links I posted up back up that view. Do you disagree with this?


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Mar 26, 2021)

MrSki said:


> Well can you supply the figures for after January? How well is it going? No cos you have to wait a couple of months till you can rub my nose in how brilliant Brexit is for your average person without an off shore bank account.
> Look at who backed and paid for the Brexit campaign & see yourself on the side of the far right if you are justifying those that voted Brexit to give the establishment a bloody nose then you are the much mistaken.



This again? Let’s list prominent remain supporters...Blair, the IOD, Cameron, the Bank of England, Osborne, Starmer, the CBI, the IMF, the Guardian, the ECB, various hysterical celebz and, of course, our fine elected representatives. The remain campaign outspent the leave campaign, who paid for that? Ex-miners and street sweepers?


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 26, 2021)

editor said:


> Do you think that Brexit played absolutely no part in stocking xenophobia then?


I was asking if I had read correctly that that study you had posted was based on 250 people .


----------



## Maggot (Mar 26, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> The remain campaign outspent the leave campaign, who paid for that? Ex-miners and street sweepers?


And the Leave campaign broke electoral rules on spending.


----------



## gosub (Mar 26, 2021)

Maggot said:


> And the Leave campaign broke electoral rules on spending.


Remain at the vary least bent the rules out of any recognizable shape


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 26, 2021)

editor said:


> You can't back up your argument because it's bullshit. But to repeat myself again: I think immigration played a part in some people voting for Brexit and the links I posted up back up that view. Do you disagree with this?


my argument isn't bullshit. you chose four articles to support your claim. so i can only assume that you agree with their views, being as you selected them. but my point  wasn't another let's go round and see why people voted, it's about the cause which got brexit onto the ballot paper in the first place. and a large part of that was some people making a a load of money from the uk leaving. this had been going on for years, the people behind the brexit campaign had been working on this for a long time.

you may recall that a decade or so ago there were food riots in egypt and other places and it turned out that the shortages had been caused by hedge funds and speculators. a major force behind the official leave campaigns appears to have been speculators (as i linked to three articles above, none of which you've criticised). oh yeh a lot of people voted on the basis of immigration. a lot of people voted on the basis of more money for the nhs. but the people who were bankrolling the campaign were obviously going to highlight things which would win the vote. and as far as i'm concerned for the people running the show, the people who were paying the piper, it was in large measure for their own benefit and not for the people who were concerned about immigration or the nhs whose role in the process was simply to help the leave campaign to victory - ballot fodder - and whose interests would afterwards be ignored. as they have been. it's like any other election, people cast their ballot for a candidate for a number of reasons but the winning candidate doesn't give a fuck whether the people who voted for them voted for them or against someone else.


----------



## MrSki (Mar 26, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> This again? Let’s list prominent remain supporters...Blair, the IOD, Cameron, the Bank of England, Osborne, Starmer, the CBI, the IMF, the Guardian, the ECB, various hysterical celebz and, of course, our fine elected representatives. The remain campaign outspent the leave campaign, who paid for that? Ex-miners and street sweepers?


So how about Trade Unions that represent workers were they leave or remain? 
It is the 1% who were backing leave cos it benefited them. Why were so many non domiciles with a big influence on UK politics ramming it down the throat. 
Murdoch et al has been lying about the EU/EEC since I did a paper round. Bent bananas What a load of bollocks. 
If I had to look at sides (that seems a bit pointless) I would rather be on the other from:
Trump
Fararge
The Daily Mail
The Telegraph
The Sun
The Times 
The Express
Aaron Banks
Steve Bannon
Murdoch 
smoke&Steam
& a load of tory cunt MPs that is too long to list.

funny how all the money came from dodgy sources unless you count Fararge selling dodgy investments to mugs who seemed to think he was Cesaer cos of his association with purple.


----------



## Yossarian (Mar 26, 2021)

The Friday night Brexit thread pub meet-up when this cursed pandemic is over is going to be carnage.


----------



## brogdale (Mar 26, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> The Friday night Brexit thread pub meet-up when this cursed pandemic is over is going to be carnage.


Only if you've got your (Blue) vaccine passport!


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 26, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> The Friday night Brexit thread pub punch-up when this cursed pandemic is over is going to be epic.


c4u


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Mar 26, 2021)

Maggot said:


> So how about Trade Unions that represent workers were they leave or remain?
> It is the 1% who were backing leave cos it benefited them. Why were so many non domiciles with a big influence on UK politics ramming it down the throat.
> Murdoch et al has been lying about the EU/EEC since I did a paper round. Bent bananas What a load of bollocks.
> If I had to look at sides (that seems a bit pointless) I would rather be on the other from:
> ...



I’ve just posted up a short list of remainers. Every single leader of the establishment parties alive supported remain. Every major organisation of British capital - the organised wing of the 1% - supported remain. How much _more_ establishment do you want? If you want to read about the pro leave unions like RMT, the Bakers, Aslef (and you can add them to your list) then google it.

But it doesn’t matter does it? The evidence, the facts are an irrelevance to planet remain ....which takes us back to where we started about the unmooring of the remnants of remain....


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Mar 26, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> The Friday night Brexit thread pub meet-up when this cursed pandemic is over is going to be carnage.



Can’t be in a Wetherspoons...they trigger remainers


----------



## gosub (Mar 26, 2021)

MrSki said:


> So how about Trade Unions that represent workers were they leave or remain?
> It is the 1% who were backing leave cos it benefited them. Why were so many non domiciles with a big influence on UK politics ramming it down the throat.
> Murdoch et al has been lying about the EU/EEC since I did a paper round. Bent bananas What a load of bollocks.



One thing that is going to have to be looked at is public health vets. There has to be another path than a 7year degree to sign off cholate biscuits for export


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 26, 2021)

MrSki said:


> So how about Trade Unions that represent workers were they leave or remain?
> It is the 1% who were backing leave cos it benefited them. Why were so many non domiciles with a big influence on UK politics ramming it down the throat.
> Murdoch et al has been lying about the EU/EEC since I did a paper round. Bent bananas What a load of bollocks.
> If I had to look at sides (that seems a bit pointless) I would rather be on the other from:
> ...


I was glad to qualified your statement “If I had to look at sides , I would rather be on the other from” with ‘That seems a bit pointless’. Unfortunately the quantity of pointlessness was not enough to then prevent or restrain you from making a list of people and newspapers that , despite it being a bit pointless , you would rather be on the other side from. 
All the newspaper titles you mention plus Thatcher of course campaigned in 1972 to join   what was to become the EU. Presumably  if you had been able to vote in that referendum you would have, despite it being a bit pointless to look at sides and make a list etc voted not to join?


----------



## Maggot (Mar 26, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I’ve just posted up a short list of remainers. Every single leader of the establishment parties alive supported remain. Every major organisation of British capital - the organised wing of the 1% - supported remain. How much _more_ establishment do you want? If you want to read about the pro leave unions like RMT, the Bakers, Aslef (and you can add them to your list) then google it.
> 
> But it doesn’t matter does it? The evidence, the facts are an irrelevance to planet remain ....which takes us back to where we started about the unmooring of the remnants of remain....


Why have you credited me with a post that Mr Ski wrote?


----------



## MrSki (Mar 26, 2021)

As far as I am concerned the Brexit side was a right wing coalition who I would not want to be associated with.
Murdoch dropped Major & switched to Blair cos of Major's stance on Europe. 

I still wait to see the benefits of Brexit & will be more than happy to hold my hands up & say I was wrong when your average person in the street is actually better off. 
When the workers rights directives get reversed & holiday pay is limited along with bank holidays then there might be a few who are not happy about it.

I hope Brexit is a massive success & it benefits everyone in the UK but I am not holding my breathe. 

.


----------



## friendofdorothy (Mar 26, 2021)

looking forward to the sunlit uplands...


----------



## MrSki (Mar 26, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> I was glad to qualified your statement “If I had to look at sides , I would rather be on the other from” with ‘That seems a bit pointless’. Unfortunately the quantity of pointlessness was not enough to then prevent or restrain you from making a list of people and newspapers that , despite it being a bit pointless , you would rather be on the other side from.
> All the newspaper titles you mention plus Thatcher of course campaigned in 1972 to join   what was to become the EU. Presumably  if you had been able to vote in that referendum you would have, despite it being a bit pointless to look at sides and make a list etc voted not to join?


Pointless? Yes maybe but it is the number of non UK tax payers who had/have such an influence on the UK that pisses me off.


----------



## friendofdorothy (Mar 26, 2021)

and looking forward to eating a lot more herring


----------



## MrSki (Mar 26, 2021)

friendofdorothy said:


> and looking forward to eating a lot more herring


Well there should be loads of cheap fish & almost free shellfish plus cheap lamb, beef & other meat products for a few months until they are no longer farmed because there will be no money in it.


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 26, 2021)

MrSki said:


> Well there should be loads of cheap fish & almost free shellfish plus cheap lamb, beef & other meat products for a few months until they are no longer farmed because there will be no money in it.


Perhaps we should have a lamb, beef and other meat product mountain if there’s a surplus . Or has that been done before with other foods?


----------



## MrSki (Mar 26, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Perhaps we should have a lamb, beef and other meat product mountain if there’s a surplus . Or has that been done before with other foods?


Well it would not do any harm to stock up on food if there might be shortages. 
Wine lakes & butter mountains sound more like dream states rather than A load of dead cows & sheep. I doubt that the meat farming in this country will be much above the domestic market in a year or two judging by the tariffs.


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 26, 2021)

MrSki said:


> Well it would not do any harm to stock up on food if there might be shortages.
> Wine lakes & butter mountains sound more like dream states rather than A load of dead cows & sheep. I doubt that the meat farming in this country will be much above the domestic market in a year or two judging by the tariffs.


I occasionally see lamb from the U.K. in supermarkets over here in Portugal. Eye wateringly expensive . Last year or year before I didn’t catch on that the price displayed on this half leg of lamb was the price per kilo rather  than total price . The woman behind the till asked me did I really intend to buy it . She weighed it and said the price ; 20 euros for half a leg! Couldn’t thank her enough .


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 26, 2021)

friendofdorothy said:


> and looking forward to eating a lot more herring


Preferably kippered?


----------



## friendofdorothy (Mar 26, 2021)

yes just as well I like kippers


----------



## krtek a houby (Mar 26, 2021)

friendofdorothy said:


> and looking forward to eating a lot more herring



Red?


----------



## andysays (Mar 27, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> Red?


Some of these Remainer arguments have more red herrings than an Agatha Christie novel


----------



## Supine (Mar 27, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> The Friday night Brexit thread pub meet-up when this cursed pandemic is over is going to be carnage.



I wouldn't go drinking with Farage or any of his mates


----------



## MrSki (Mar 27, 2021)




----------



## bimble (Mar 27, 2021)

MrSki why do Remoaners want Wales to be polluted by loads of massive lorries? Perverts.  I bet you thought it was good when oysters had to suffer stressful journeys abroad too.


----------



## MrSki (Mar 27, 2021)

bimble said:


> MrSki why do Remoaners want Wales to be polluted by loads of massive lorries? Perverts.  I bet you thought it was good when oysters had to suffer stressful journeys abroad too.


I was thinking more of Welsh dockers jobs if the port traffic is down then jobs will go. I take your point on pollution but don't eat any shell fish so would be happy if it was left at the bottom of the sea.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 27, 2021)

Supine said:


> I wouldn't go drinking with Farage or any of his mates


No, I suppose you'd stop in with them


----------



## bimble (Mar 27, 2021)

MrSki said:


> I was thinking more of Welsh dockers jobs if the port traffic is down then jobs will go. I take your point on pollution but don't eat any shell fish so would be happy if it was left at the bottom of the sea.


Welsh dockers, like pig farmers, just need to see the bigger picture. Maybe they could all form a band and tour the US.


----------



## Badgers (Mar 28, 2021)

Tears flow for Brits as they head home to avoid being deported as illegals in Spain
					

Tears flow for Brits as they head home to avoid being deported as illegals in Spain: Brits this weekend across Spain, leave the country




					global247news.com
				






> Spain’s police force and authorities are expecting to deport 500 UK citizens within the first week, with targets already earmarked to be picked up and deported home, knowingly to the authorities not having the correct paperwork to remain


----------



## Badgers (Mar 28, 2021)




----------



## bimble (Mar 28, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Tears flow for Brits as they head home to avoid being deported as illegals in Spain
> 
> 
> Tears flow for Brits as they head home to avoid being deported as illegals in Spain: Brits this weekend across Spain, leave the country
> ...


I’ve got some respect for Shaun Cromber there, I think if it was me I’d probably not admit that I voted leave whilst moaning about having to leave.


----------



## Yossarian (Mar 28, 2021)

bimble said:


> I’ve got some respect for Shaun Cromber there, I think if it was me I’d probably not admit that I voted leave whilst moaning about having to leave.



While the deportations are real and there are probably some Brexit voters among them, I think that dubious news source might have invented Shaun Cromber.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 28, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> While the deportations are real and there are probably some Brexit voters among them, I think that dubious news source might have invented Shaun Cromber.


It would also be interesting to know why those that have had residency applications turned down have been rejected. And zero sympathy with anyone who’s having to return because they’re no longer going to be able to live there as tax evaders.


----------



## muscovyduck (Mar 28, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> While the deportations are real and there are probably some Brexit voters among them, I think that dubious news source might have invented Shaun Cromber.


Anyone else remember the viral twitter thread about a couple in France that got uncovered as bullshit because someone checked the Eurostar timetable?


----------



## muscovyduck (Mar 28, 2021)

Until we sort out issues around vulnerable people moving countries I'm not inclined to care much about British people who have this sort of colonialist-informed attitude that they can just go and live wherever they want.


----------



## brogdale (Mar 28, 2021)

muscovyduck said:


> Until we sort out issues around vulnerable people moving countries I'm not inclined to care much about British people who have this sort of colonialist-informed attitude that they can just go and live wherever they want.


Agree with the sentiment but, tbf, for the vast majority they were merely exercising their freedom to move to and reside wherever they wanted to within the supra state under Article 21 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the EU (TFEU).


----------



## bimble (Mar 28, 2021)

muscovyduck said:


> Until we sort out issues around vulnerable people moving countries I'm not inclined to care much about British people who have this sort of colonialist-informed attitude that they can just go and live wherever they want.


Is it only the Brits who were moving about with a colonialist-informed attitude or are the Poles living in say Germany or the Spanish working in Italy the same.


----------



## muscovyduck (Mar 28, 2021)

bimble said:


> Is it only the Brits who were moving about with a colonialist-informed attitude or are the Poles living in say Germany or the Spanish working in Italy the same.


We were talking about these people who voted Brexit and are now pissed off they can't live in the EU


----------



## bimble (Mar 28, 2021)

muscovyduck said:


> We were talking about these people who voted Brexit and are now pissed off they can't live in the EU


it is hard to sympathise with those but i think there's very few of them.


----------



## Yossarian (Mar 28, 2021)

muscovyduck said:


> Until we sort out issues around vulnerable people moving countries I'm not inclined to care much about British people who have this sort of colonialist-informed attitude that they can just go and live wherever they want.



Rich British people still can go and live wherever they want, Spain and Portugal were more the affordable options for retired people - kind of like what Florida is in the US, with less meth and alligators.


----------



## brogdale (Mar 28, 2021)

bimble said:


> it is hard to sympathise with those but i think there's very few of them.


Some estimates put the ex-pat Leave support at around 20%.


----------



## bimble (Mar 28, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> Rich British people still can go and live wherever they want, Spain and Portugal were more the affordable options for retired people - kind of like what Florida is in the US, with less meth and alligators.


Do you mean because rich people's citizenship applications would be accepted by whatever country they choose?


----------



## bimble (Mar 28, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Some estimates put the ex-pat Leave support at around 20%.


I dont believe it tbh. People, not even 1 in 5 of them, aren't that silly / selfless.


----------



## Yossarian (Mar 28, 2021)

bimble said:


> Do you mean because rich people's citizenship applications would be accepted by whatever country they choose?



Maybe not full citizenship, but I doubt rich people who own a home in their chosen country and can show officials they have shitloads of money in the bank spend a lot of time worrying about whether their visitor visa will be extended.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 28, 2021)

bimble said:


> I dont believe it tbh. People, not even 1 in 5 of them, aren't that silly / selfless.


I’m not so sure. Brits living abroad are occasionally the most self entitled people I’ve come across. Not all by any means but the types who’ve been living on the Algarve for over 20 years, don’t speak the language and live in their own expat bubbles, I can well see might vote for Brexit thinking it won’t affect them or maybe even bestow upon them some greater superiority.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 28, 2021)

Two of my friends returned to the UK last night having been working in Poland for the past three years, she is a senior exec in a leading tech company, he sits in the pub drinking her massive salary. They both voted leave, but when they got to Calais yesterday in a UK car the French border guy was very rude to them telling them that they had been in the EU for more than 90 days this year and they would be in trouble, they then handed the prick their brand new Irish passports and laughed in his face. The cunts. Love them both though.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 28, 2021)

And Liam, who loves a row said...


----------



## Elpenor (Mar 28, 2021)

There’s only been 87 days of 2021 so far, the border guy obviously didn’t pass Maths at school


----------



## Yossarian (Mar 28, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> I’m not so sure. Brits abroad are occasionally the most self entitled people I’ve come across. Not all by any means but the types who’ve been living on the Algarve for over 20 years, don’t speak the language and live in their own expat bubbles, I can well see might vote for Brexit thinking it won’t affect them or maybe even bestow upon them some greater superiority.



Reminds me of the twats in Hong Kong who thought being there for 20 years without having eaten Chinese food was something to boast about and warned me that I'd get slanted eyes if I kept speaking Cantonese.

That particular demographic was probably 100% Remain, tbf - not because of any strong feelings on the EU either way, but because they have a horror of anything that could extend airport wait times.


----------



## brogdale (Mar 28, 2021)

bimble said:


> I dont believe it tbh. People, not even 1 in 5 of them, aren't that silly / selfless.


But that sort of interpretation of UK citizens living abroad presupposes full knowledge of the implications of the decision to leave. Important not to be swayed by what we all now know.


----------



## muscovyduck (Mar 28, 2021)

Fuck the system the sets working class communities up against each other. The same way you can't really hate someone moving out of London to somewhere nice quiet and affordable up north, you can't really hate the people doing the same across a larger geographical area. My family 'back home' are priced out their local community, renting some really dire houses, working shit jobs, and I'm sat here in the UK knowing because of the difference in economies I could easily use the relatively small amount of money I have here to move back over there and buy myself a very very nice house to live in, and use the privilege of having had a UK education and career to get a very good job there. The locals don't stand a chance.


----------



## dessiato (Mar 28, 2021)

There was an interview with a Brexit voter at Malaga airport yesterday. In it he said he and his wife were in tears at being forced to leave Spain. They’d lived here for 5 years, but had not become legal residents. Although they had voted Brexit they had never expected that it would come to this, nor that it would affect them.

It is anticipated that 500 Brits will be expected to leave within the next few days now that the 90 day rule applies to them. It is also expected that there will be a number of arrests and deportations soon.

Still some people think that leaving here going to Portugal or France etc then coming back after a few days will get round the 90 days. Unfortunately they are wrong. The 90 days applies to Schengen area. So staying anywhere in it all counts for the allowed period.

”interestingly“ the majority of people complaining are ones who didn’t become legal residents, and many of these seem to be Brexit voters.


----------



## bimble (Mar 28, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Two of my friends returned to the UK last night having been working in Poland for the past three years, she is a senior exec in a leading tech company, he sits in the pub drinking her massive salary. They both voted leave, but when they got to Calais yesterday in a UK car the French border guy was very rude to them telling them that they had been in the EU for more than 90 days this year and they would be in trouble, they then handed the prick their brand new Irish passports and laughed in his face. The cunts. Love them both though.


Did knowing that they'd be able to get brand new irish passports influence their vote at all?


----------



## A380 (Mar 28, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> Rich British people still can go and live wherever they want, Spain and Portugal were more the affordable options for retired people - kind of like what Florida is in the US, with less meth and alligators.


You can still live full time in Spain on a UK passport if you have an income around c€2000 a month or €2500 a couple.

I didn’t fancy it though, not enough meth or alligators...


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 28, 2021)

dessiato and others will know the Spanish process better than me but the Portuguese system pre and post Brexit is simple and easy to do.

I live in Portugal voted Brexit. My residency application was to go to Town Hall, take a ticket at general enquiries, and ask for a five year residency. Documents were a passport, NIF which is the finance number ( easy to get ), address ( which can be anywhere in Portugal, (permanent or temporary) . Took 15 minutes. Earlier this year I applied online for a biometric certificate of residency that makes life easier at airports. 

Initial residency is 5 years then you apply for ten years via SEF and then permanent. There is talk about changing the process so after five years the application is for permanent. Residency is not the same as citizenship but you can apply for that after five years and hold dual nationality.

If you were in Portugal before January 31st and hadn't applied you can still apply under that scheme as the Govt says you were here legitimately under previous rules. For those who arrived after Jan 31sts, the procedure is similar after 90 days but the application is to SEF ( Border Control and Immigration) online or by appointment at the local office. Proof of earnings is around the equivalent of the unemployment benefit in either savings, UK income or a job contract here. 

There have been extensive social media by the British Embassy on Facebook including videos, Portuguese govt websites including SEF have everything in English and videos to watch. There has also been a joint UK and EU funded campaign to engage with the hard to reach ie very old, those with disabilities and those without internet and transport. Most deadlines have been extended due to the covid restrictions which have impacted on physical applications and appointments and the introduction of online resources and their inevitable teething problems.  Can safely say that deportations here are going to be the very very last resort unless someone has been caught up in serious criminal activity.


----------



## Yossarian (Mar 28, 2021)

bimble said:


> Did knowing that they'd be able to get brand new irish passports influence their vote at all?



I am also confused by the meaning of this parable - it seems somewhat anti-EU, but the conflict is resolved by the protagonists producing EU passports.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 28, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> I am also confused by the meaning of this parable - it seems somewhat anti-EU, but the conflict is resolved by the protagonists producing EU passports.


Blessed be the brexit-voting EU passport holders

Amen, amen


----------



## gosub (Mar 28, 2021)

bimble said:


> Did knowing that they'd be able to get brand new irish passports influence their vote at all?



Technically at time of referendum I could have had an Irish or an Australian if I'd have wanted.  Divorce was the right move,. and stuck with British.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 28, 2021)

gosub said:


> Technically at time of referendum I could have had an Irish or an Australian if I'd have wanted.  Divorce was the right move,. and stuck with British.


But not an Irish and an Australian?


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 28, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> dessiato and others will know the Spanish process better than me but the Portuguese system pre and post Brexit is simple and easy to do.
> 
> I live in Portugal voted Brexit. My residency application was to go to Town Hall, take a ticket at general enquiries, and ask for a five year residency. Documents were a passport, NIF which is the finance number ( easy to get ), address ( which can be anywhere in Portugal, (permanent or temporary) . Took 15 minutes. Earlier this year I applied online for a biometric certificate of residency that makes life easier at airports.
> 
> ...




Any idea what's happening in the cases of these Brits who are saying they've applied and been refused residency?


----------



## two sheds (Mar 28, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> I’m not so sure. Brits living abroad are occasionally the most self entitled people I’ve come across. Not all by any means but the types who’ve been living on the Algarve for over 20 years, don’t speak the language and live in their own expat bubbles, I can well see might vote for Brexit thinking it won’t affect them or maybe even bestow upon them some greater superiority.



Yep I saw similar in the Netherlands. One in five could be right - at first I thought that might be a bit low but they were perhaps the more vocal ones. I know a lot who I'm sure voted remain because they believe in the Europe 'project'. I would have done myself 40 years ago when I lived there.


----------



## gosub (Mar 28, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> But not an Irish and an Australian?



Said Irish Australian ex IS still  living in the UK.  In a parallel universe, if things had worked out differently If I'd taken one or it had ended up factoring in our lives in an alternative, she'd have never let me forget.


----------



## dessiato (Mar 28, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Any idea what's happening in the cases of these Brits who are saying they've applied and been refused residency?


They can appeal.


----------



## Doppelgänger (Mar 28, 2021)

gosub said:


> Technically at time of referendum I could have had an Irish or an Australian if I'd have wanted.  Divorce was the right move,. and stuck with British.


Your other half at the time was Irish? Not sure that's enough for you to qualify for a passport.

How would it have worked?


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 28, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Any idea what's happening in the cases of these Brits who are saying they've applied and been refused residency?


Can't speak for the Spanish system but with civic buildings being closed due to covid here it has meant that applications are dealt with online. Obviously involves loading up pdfs of documents which some people might have found very difficult and sent photos or jpegs instead or may not have had all of the documents. Might not have had the technology to do so.  There's an argument albeit a tentative one that all Brexit has done is to make people do the things they should have done pre Brexit. It could also be argued that the cash in hand economy means that there is no proof of earnings ( this would apply to EU nationals working in the UK as well as UK nationals working in the EU). Must be an appeal process.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 28, 2021)

bimble said:


> Did knowing that they'd be able to get brand new irish passports influence their vote at all?




Probably, like I said, they are cunts, but nice cunts all the same.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 28, 2021)

dessiato said:


> They can appeal.


But on what grounds were they rejected in the first place?


----------



## TopCat (Mar 28, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> But on what grounds were they rejected in the first place?


Probably inability to prove income.


----------



## TopCat (Mar 28, 2021)

Anecdotally the Spanish have taken a dim view of Brits now asserting large incomes but admitting previously never paid taxes anywhere.


----------



## dessiato (Mar 28, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> dessiato and others will know the Spanish process better than me but the Portuguese system pre and post Brexit is simple and easy to do.
> 
> I live in Portugal voted Brexit. My residency application was to go to Town Hall, take a ticket at general enquiries, and ask for a five year residency. Documents were a passport, NIF which is the finance number ( easy to get ), address ( which can be anywhere in Portugal, (permanent or temporary) . Took 15 minutes. Earlier this year I applied online for a biometric certificate of residency that makes life easier at airports.
> 
> ...


We've always been legal.

The green card NIE, equivalent to Portuguese NIF, now must be changed to a TIE card. To do this you need to make an appointment with the local office dealing with this. In some areas a police station, in others the foreigners office.

Then you must have your padrón proving your address. This must be less than 3 months old. We were on the padrón but still needed to renew it for TIE because it was almost 12 months old. Then passport photos, passport and green card. 

At the office all this is presented and checked. Fingerprints are taken. Then you wait.

When your Lote number comes up you make another appointment where they take your fingerprints again and give you your card.

However, in Córdoba they gave us our collection date and time before we left after the first appointment. This is rare.

We were already permanent, legal residents which made it very easy and quick.


----------



## dessiato (Mar 28, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> But on what grounds were they rejected in the first place?


I don't know. It would be interesting to find out. Many being refused seem to be on the Costa


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 28, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> I am also confused by the meaning of this parable - it seems somewhat anti-EU, but the conflict is resolved by the protagonists producing EU passports.



Not really a parable other than the EU is coming down heavy on British folk overstaying the 90 days. And that Anna & Liam are cunts. Back in time for the pubs to open at the end of their quarantine, leaving Poland with massive rising Covid rates...


----------



## bimble (Mar 28, 2021)

Some 400,000 EU people stuck in the backlog here waiting to find out of it they have been awarded the right to stay, sounds like our system isn't working that brilliantly.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 28, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Not really a parable other than the EU is coming down heavy on British folk overstaying the 90 days. And that Anna & Liam are cunts. Back in time for the pubs to open at the end of their quarantine, leaving Poland with massive rising Covid rates...


I reckon they sound pretty switched-on.


----------



## gosub (Mar 28, 2021)

Doppelgänger said:


> Your other half at the time was Irish? Not sure that's enough for you to qualify for a passport.
> 
> How would it have worked?



It would of. for reasons
As part of an old job I set what I think is a record facilitating a 2 year Schegen for a 3rd state national.  Anyone ever get close?


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 28, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Anecdotally the Spanish have taken a dim view of Brits now asserting large incomes but admitting previously never paid taxes anywhere.


Helping the Spanish catch tax cheats.

#benefitsofbrexit


----------



## dessiato (Mar 28, 2021)

A lot of Brits here have left it to the last minute and are now finding there's no appointments. The 90 days ends on 31 March. To stay they must have confirmed appointments for TIE. And many areas have no appointments available. 

I think part of the reason for the panic is that the UK government was telling us we needed to do nothing. Which, of course, wasn't true.


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 28, 2021)

dessiato said:


> A lot of Brits here have left it to the last minute and are now finding there's no appointments. The 90 days ends on 31 March. To stay they must have confirmed appointments for TIE. And many areas have no appointments available.
> 
> I think part of the reason for the panic is that the UK government was telling us we needed to do nothing. Which, of course, wasn't true.



Glad you mentioned that as I found an article written 4 days ago on an English Spanish site which doesn't seem to have the same urgency as the article going around on the internet tbh 









						BREXIT: When is the deadline for Brits to apply for residency in Spain?
					

Until when do Britons who were living in Spain before 2021 have to apply to become residents? The UK Embassy told The Local what the law states.




					www.thelocal.es


----------



## muscovyduck (Mar 28, 2021)

dessiato said:


> I think part of the reason for the panic is that the UK government was telling us we needed to do nothing. Which, of course, wasn't true.


In the UK we were getting so many adverts telling us if we were self employed had businesses etc we had to get ready for brexit, the gov knew people needed to do stuff. Absolute fuckers


----------



## xenon (Mar 28, 2021)

bimble said:


> I dont believe it tbh. People, not even 1 in 5 of them, aren't that silly / selfless.



Oh Bimble.


I listen to too much phone in radio which yeah, self selecting but there were plenty of *brexit nutter xpats. 


*not all brexit voters = nutters.


----------



## teqniq (Mar 28, 2021)




----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 28, 2021)

My dad had to sort U.K. residency out for my step-mum who’s Dutch, took about 30 minutes to send off the documents and got confirmation about 10 days later. Felt odd after her having lived here, paying taxes for more than 30 years.


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 28, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Agree with the sentiment but, tbf, for the vast majority they were merely exercising their freedom to move to and reside wherever they wanted to within the supra state under Article 21 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the EU (TFEU).


Take away the popular stereotyping and it's a post Brexit migrant issue tbh.


----------



## A380 (Mar 28, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Can't speak for the Spanish system but with civic buildings being closed due to covid here it has meant that applications are dealt with online. Obviously involves loading up pdfs of documents which some people might have found very difficult and sent photos or jpegs instead or may not have had all of the documents. Might not have had the technology to do so.  There's an argument albeit a tentative one that all Brexit has done is to make people do the things they should have done pre Brexit. It could also be argued that the cash in hand economy means that there is no proof of earnings ( this would apply to EU nationals working in the UK as well as UK nationals working in the EU). Must be an appeal process.


If you get Portuguese residency does that mean you can stay fir longer than 90 days anywhere in the EU, I presume once you are inside the Shengan area there is no way of checking anyway?


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 28, 2021)

A380 said:


> If you get Portuguese residency does that mean you can stay fir longer than 90 days anywhere in the EU, I presume once you are inside the Shengan area there is no way of checking anyway?


Yes, I think so,  although there may be different residency rules in the country you go to that give or have fewer benefits. If you have residency than you can apply for an EU EHIC type card that gives you access to other EU state's health services.


----------



## dessiato (Mar 28, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Glad you mentioned that as I found an article written 4 days ago on an English Spanish site which doesn't seem to have the same urgency as the article going around on the internet tbh
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don’t trust that paper. It is often a little bit economical with facts.


----------



## Doppelgänger (Mar 28, 2021)

gosub said:


> It would of. for reasons
> As part of an old job I set what I think is a record facilitating a 2 year Schegen for a 3rd state national.  Anyone ever get close?


Still don't see how unless you lived in Ireland at the time...


----------



## dessiato (Mar 28, 2021)

A380 said:


> If you get Portuguese residency does that mean you can stay fir longer than 90 days anywhere in the EU, I presume once you are inside the Shengan area there is no way of checking anyway?





The39thStep said:


> Yes, I think so,  although there may be different residency rules in the country you go to that give or have fewer benefits. If you have residency than you can apply for an EU EHIC type card that gives you access to other EU state's health services.


My understanding is that you can’t stay for longer except in the country where you hold permanent residency. But whether they can easily check is another matter.

I believe that now you get a stamp in your passport when you arrive, this is then checked on exit. And thus, you are fucked. Deported, fined, and banned from Schengen area.


----------



## A380 (Mar 28, 2021)

dessiato said:


> My understanding is that you can’t stay for longer except in the country where you hold permanent residency. But whether they can easily check is another matter.
> 
> I believe that now you get a stamp in your passport when you arrive, this is then checked on exit. And thus, you are fucked. Deported, fined, and banned from Schengen area.


But if you start from Portugal by car or train you don’t have to show your passport across (almost) all of the EU so where would you get the stamp? Thanks


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 28, 2021)

dessiato said:


> My understanding is that you can’t stay for longer except in the country where you hold permanent residency. But whether they can easily check is another matter.
> 
> I believe that now you get a stamp in your passport when you arrive, this is then checked on exit. And thus, you are fucked. Deported, fined, and banned from Schengen area.


Passports don't need to be stamped if you can show your residency, I have seen some stories about it being done in some EU states but the UK embassy advice here is that it shouldn't be done.  Last time I flew was November last year so I can't test it out. 

Presumably, you can apply for residency in the other country? Hypothetical for me tbh but I know it's not for you.


----------



## dessiato (Mar 28, 2021)

This from another news site, not one I’d especially recommend, but there’s others quoting similar Brits.



> Another returning at Malaga airport today was Shaun Cromber who despite voting for Britain to leave the EU, didn’t believe it would end his Spanish lifestyle, he said: ” Yes I voted out, but I didn’t realise it would come to this, my application has been rejected and we are on our way home – the wife is in tears, she’s distraught if I’m honest and I’m not too happy at the prospect of returning back to the UK.
> 
> “I’ve loved living on the Costa del Sol and after 5 years can’t believe it has come to this, we applied but got rejected and so have no choice, although long term I think the Spanish will regret chucking us out of Spain”
> 
> The deadline now is only 4 days away and it’s certainly going to be interesting to see what happens when the British become illegal immigrants in Spain.



He‘s had FIVE years to become legal, and plenty of time to get residency. After 5 years he could have got permanent residency.


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 28, 2021)

dessiato said:


> This from another news site, not one I’d especially recommend, but there’s others quoting similar Brits.
> 
> 
> 
> He‘s had FIVE years to become legal, and plenty of time to get residency. After 5 years he could have got permanent residency.


Something doesn't smell right tbh


----------



## TopCat (Mar 28, 2021)

What’s happening to Costa property prices?


----------



## two sheds (Mar 28, 2021)

And does this mean we get all the crims back from the south coast there?


----------



## ska invita (Mar 28, 2021)

TopCat said:


> What’s happening to Costa property prices?


falling and forecast to fall further


----------



## dessiato (Mar 28, 2021)

TopCat said:


> What’s happening to Costa property prices?


Prices across Andalucía (I don't know about the rest of Spain) are falling a lot. We have seen some drop by up to 40%. The Costas are not being hit so very badly because they are very popular with N Europeans.


----------



## gosub (Mar 28, 2021)

Doppelgänger said:


> Still don't see how unless you lived in Ireland at the time...



Its not what you know. But I really didn't see the point in staying in the UK and getting an EU passportt


----------



## Badgers (Mar 28, 2021)

gosub said:


> Its not what you know. But I really didn't see the point in staying in the UK and getting an EU passportt


Freedom of movement?


----------



## gosub (Mar 28, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Freedom of movement?



Never had a problem with it myself and didn't assume  we'd lose it. I also would n't have found it that hard to find work in the EU (prior to Covid) if I'd have wanted it


----------



## Doppelgänger (Mar 28, 2021)

gosub said:


> Never had a problem with it myself and didn't assume  we'd lose it. I also would n't have found it that hard to find work in the EU (prior to Covid) if I'd have wanted it


But prior the UK was in the EU or the transition period.

You think it will be as easy for a Brit once COVID blows over?


----------



## gosub (Mar 28, 2021)

Doppelgänger said:


> But prior the UK was in the EU or the transition period.
> 
> You think it will be as easy for a Brit once COVID blows over?


Yes, the period where them's who valued EU citizenship above other things (and could) sorted their shit out.
No.


----------



## dessiato (Mar 28, 2021)

gosub said:


> Never had a problem with it myself and didn't assume  we'd lose it. I also would n't have found it that hard to find work in the EU (prior to Covid) if I'd have wanted it


I think you'll not find it easy now. You will need a visa at the very least, unless you have an EU passport.


----------



## Doppelgänger (Mar 28, 2021)

gosub said:


> Yes, the period where them's who valued EU citizenship above other things (and could) sorted their shit out.
> No.


Unless you have an EU passport or some sort of residency in an EU country (but that would only cover you in that country), then I think you might be in for a surprise


----------



## gosub (Mar 28, 2021)

Doppelgänger said:


> Unless you have an EU passport or some sort of residency in an EU country (but that would only cover you in that country), then I think you might be in for a surprise


----------



## Doppelgänger (Mar 28, 2021)

gosub said:


>


Care to explain?


----------



## gosub (Mar 28, 2021)

Doppelgänger said:


> Care to explain?


You are not talking TO me.  You are talking AT me


----------



## Doppelgänger (Mar 28, 2021)

gosub said:


> You are not talking to me.  You are talking AT me


That's cleared that up.

Instead of talking in riddles, why don't you clarify what you've been typing.

You have a UK passport and "could have" got an Irish one because you were married to someone Irish (that's not how it works btw). 

And you think you'll have no problems working in the EU despite now losing your freedom of movement.

I'm sure I'm not the only one who thinks this makes zero sense.


----------



## dessiato (Mar 28, 2021)

Doppelgänger said:


> That's cleared that up.
> 
> Instead of talking in riddles, why don't you clarify what you've been typing.
> 
> ...


I think when he realises that being married to someone with an Irish passport doesn't cover him to live, work, and move around the EU freely and unhindered...


----------



## gosub (Mar 28, 2021)

Doppelgänger said:


> That's cleared that up.
> 
> Instead of talking in riddles, why don't you clarify what you've been typing.
> 
> ...



So when you ask someone 'If they think it would as easy in the future and they reply NO, you have difficulty understanding. Visa's  weren't and still won't be a problem for me.


----------



## Doppelgänger (Mar 28, 2021)

gosub said:


> So when you ask someone 'If they think it would as easy in the future and they reply NO, you have difficulty understanding. Visa's  weren't and still won't be a problem for me.


Weren't because the UK was in the EU.

You think it will be the same now? If you do, you're in the minority.

Brits are already excluded from applying from lots of EU jobs.

I am sure plenty of Brits will be able to go down the Visa route, but they will be in a minority.

With the extra faff, many EU employers simply won't bother it.

What industry do you work in that the EU have in such short supply they would employ a Brit?


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 28, 2021)

Doppelgänger said:


> You have a UK passport and "could have" got an Irish one because you were married to someone Irish (that's not how it works btw).


My uncle, who never lived in Ireland, was married to an Irish citizen and (albeit after many years of marriage) got Irish citizenship


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 28, 2021)

TopCat said:


> What’s happening to Costa property prices?


About 8 years ago I went on a weeks holiday with two mates near Torrevieja rented a three bedroom apartment off one of their friends on a fairly new urbanisation for £150  .It was desolate tbh as most were holiday lets and it was March. The adverts for the apartments were still up quoting £160k . Spoke to this Irish guy who lived there and he reckoned you could pick them up resale at around half that.


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 28, 2021)

gosub said:


> Never had a problem with it myself and didn't assume  we'd lose it. I also would n't have found it that hard to find work in the EU (prior to Covid) if I'd have wanted it


Doing what?


----------



## Doppelgänger (Mar 28, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> My uncle, who never lived in Ireland, was married to an Irish citizen and (albeit after many years of marriage) got Irish citizenship


That's not how it works now though. I assume there must have been a different set of rules when your uncle did it.


----------



## brogdale (Mar 28, 2021)

A rival to Little Don's Roundabout Zoo in Royston Vasey?

 

Exhibit suggestions?

The bent cucumber?


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 28, 2021)

brogdale said:


> A rival to Little Don's Roundabout Zoo in Royston Vasey?
> 
> View attachment 260718
> 
> ...


Badgers


----------



## Raheem (Mar 28, 2021)

brogdale said:


> A rival to Little Don's Roundabout Zoo in Royston Vasey?
> 
> View attachment 260718
> 
> ...


Think there's already a thread for pub names.


----------



## bimble (Mar 28, 2021)

gosub said:


> Yes, the period where them's who valued EU citizenship above other things (and could) sorted their shit out.


Weird post. Does it mean ‘the period when lots of British people applied for EU citizenships?’


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 28, 2021)

Raheem said:


> Think there's already a thread for pub names.


and another for shit festivals


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 28, 2021)

bimble said:


> Weird post. Does it mean ‘the period when lots of British people applied for EU citizenships?’


that's a rather prejudiced point of view, when (like you) many people found out they were in fact irish, slovenian, french etc

at worst many formerly mono-nationals found out there were formerly unknown european aspects to them which felicitously allowed them to retain freedom of movement


----------



## bimble (Mar 28, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> that's a rather prejudiced point of view, when (like you) many people found out they were in fact irish, slovenian, french etc


True. I am really excited to go to Slovakia, see my fellow Slovakians, about whom I know nothing and can’t understand a word they’re saying.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 28, 2021)

bimble said:


> True. I am really excited to go to Slovakia, see my fellow Slovakians, about whom I know nothing and can’t understand a word they’re saying.


yeh so no doubt you'll speak slowly and loudly in english and allow them to practice their grasp of the tongue of shakespeare and swinburne


----------



## gosub (Mar 28, 2021)

bimble said:


> True. I am really excited to go to Slovakia, see my fellow Slovakians, about whom I know nothing and can’t understand a word they’re saying.



Couldn't help thinking some tax man or other is going bite that on the bum, like when someone whose had a US passport tries selling a house in the UK


----------



## pseudonarcissus (Mar 28, 2021)

brogdale said:


> A rival to Little Don's Roundabout Zoo in Royston Vasey?
> 
> View attachment 260718
> 
> ...


The Neutral History Museum?


----------



## brogdale (Mar 28, 2021)

pseudonarcissus said:


> The Neutral History Museum?


vg


----------



## realitybites (Mar 28, 2021)

I was guiding my eldest to look at doing his Bachelors at Basel School of Design, I studied in Glasgow for free, although my more intrepid art friends headed off to Switzerland to do their studies. The competition to get in was always fierce and course costs are subsidised by the Swiss government, still only a mere 700GBP for EU residents. a fraction of the UK £9,500 University costs. This year UK students will be racking up international fees if they want to learn abroad. I am not sure if the old adage stands true anymore, 'when one door closes , another opens' If anyone finds it let me know


----------



## dessiato (Mar 28, 2021)

realitybites said:


> View attachment 260738
> 
> I was guiding my eldest to look at doing his Bachelors at Basel School of Design, I studied in Glasgow for free, although my more intrepid art friends headed off to Switzerland to do their studies. The competition to get in was always fierce and course costs are subsidised by the Swiss government, still only a mere 700GBP for EU residents. a fraction of the UK £9,500 University costs. This year UK students will be racking up international fees if they want to learn abroad. I am not sure if the old adage stands true anymore, 'when one door closes , another opens' If anyone finds it let me know


If your child is British he will most certainly be closed as non-EU. I think that non-English students might have some access to an Erasmus type scheme. I know Scotland was setting one up, and I think both Wales and N Ireland have plans to.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Mar 28, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> I am also confused by the meaning of this parable - it seems somewhat anti-EU, but the conflict is resolved by the protagonists producing EU passports.


It’s the ultimate pay off for Brexiteers - having your cake and eating it. Getting one over on a hapless official too.


----------



## A380 (Mar 29, 2021)

bimble said:


> True. I am really excited to go to Slovakia, see my fellow Slovakians, about whom I know nothing and can’t understand a word they’re saying.


My wife feels the same about Norfolk TBF...


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 29, 2021)

A380 said:


> My wife feels the same about Norfolk TBF...


she has norfolking clue what they're saying I hear


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 31, 2021)

So yesterday Merkel and Macron had a cosy chat with Putin, looking to scrounge some Sputnik V vaccine from him, his price is Syria, Iran, Libya and Ukraine. Plus Alexei Navalny.

This is very much a downside to Brexit.


----------



## TopCat (Mar 31, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> So yesterday Merkel and Macron had a cosy chat with Putin, looking to scrounge some Sputnik V vaccine from him, his price is Syria, Iran, Libya and Ukraine. Plus Alexei Navalny.
> 
> This is very much a downside to Brexit.


Thierry Breton, the French EU commissioner who heads the EU executive’s vaccine taskforce, has also said the bloc has “absolutely no need of Sputnik V” since it “clearly has the capacity to deliver 300 to 350m doses” by the end of June.

Given the above why are they threatening the UK?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 31, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Thierry Breton, the French EU commissioner who heads the EU executive’s vaccine taskforce, has also said the bloc has “absolutely no need of Sputnik V” since it “clearly has the capacity to deliver 300 to 350m doses” by the end of June.
> 
> Given the above why are they threatening the UK?



It's pretty disgusting that this pair of cunts has turned the vaccination programme in to such a political affair whilst so many people are dying, gasping for breath.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 31, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> So yesterday Merkel and Macron had a cosy chat with Putin, looking to scrounge some Sputnik V vaccine from him, his price is Syria, Iran, Libya and Ukraine. Plus Alexei Navalny.
> 
> This is very much a downside to Brexit.


Think how navalny feels about it, and he never had a referendum


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Mar 31, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> So yesterday Merkel and Macron had a cosy chat with Putin, looking to scrounge some Sputnik V vaccine from him, his price is Syria, Iran, Libya and Ukraine. Plus Alexei Navalny.
> 
> This is very much a downside to Brexit.



This is what the remain side warned us about. The loss of ‘being at the table’ for stuff like this..


----------



## kebabking (Mar 31, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> This is what the remain side warned us about. The loss of ‘being at the table’ for stuff like this..



Germany has quite happily sold out the eastern border states for a whiff of Russian gas from the Nordstream 2 pipeline.

The old NATO _joke _that Germany would defend Europe right down to the last American becomes less funny with every passing day.


----------



## Badgers (Apr 1, 2021)

DUP MP launches legal action against government over Brexit
					

A class action has been launched against the government's post-Brexit Irish Sea trading arrangements, with a DUP MP named as one of...




					www.theneweuropean.co.uk
				






> The action, which names the Cabinet Office and attorney general as defendants, seeks a declaration from the High Court in London that the provisions in EU Withdrawal Act relating to the Protocol conflict with the economic rights provided for in the UK Human Rights Act.
> 
> The 1998 Human Rights Act enshrines the European Convention on Human Rights in domestic legislation.


----------



## Badgers (Apr 2, 2021)

__





						UK shellfish farmers threaten legal action over ban on exports to EU | Fishing industry | The Guardian
					

Industry claims it was misled by Defra over post-Brexit position and will sue unless trade with union restarts soon




					amp.theguardian.com
				






> A solicitor representing 20 shellfish firms told the Guardian the government had shown “negligence and maladministration” and that a group action was being considered for compensation.


----------



## MrSki (Apr 2, 2021)

Hope no-one on here works for a company that relied on the EU export market.


----------



## MrSki (Apr 2, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> So yesterday Merkel and Macron had a cosy chat with Putin, looking to scrounge some Sputnik V vaccine from him, his price is Syria, Iran, Libya and Ukraine. Plus Alexei Navalny.
> 
> This is very much a downside to Brexit.


Well that is probably why Putin helped fund the Brexit campaign. Nothing better for Russia than splitting the EU but you would know that already.   

In other news Murdoch is well chuffed too.


----------



## gosub (Apr 2, 2021)

MrSki said:


> Hope no-one on here works for a company that relied on the EU export market.








__





						United Kingdom’s Top 10 Exports 2021
					

United Kingdom’s top exports in 2021, biggest export products by value, major UK export companies plus a searchable list of most valuable export products & Britain’s major food exports




					www.worldstopexports.com
				




Top UK export's 2020

Machinery including computers: US$60.4 billion (15% of total exports)
Gems, precious metals: $43.3 billion (10.8%)
Vehicles: $36.4 billion (9.1%)
Mineral fuels including oil: $26.4 billion (6.6%)
Electrical machinery, equipment: $25 billion (6.2%)
Pharmaceuticals: $24.8 billion (6.2%)
Optical, technical, medical apparatus: $17.6 billion (4.4%)
Aircraft, spacecraft: $13.2 billion (3.3%)
Organic chemicals: $12.1 billion (3%)
Plastics, plastic articles: $10.6 billion (2.6%)
The United Kingdom’s top 10 exports accounted for roughly two-thirds (67.1%) of the overall value of its global shipments.
____________________________

That 75% figure , is Jan FDF (AGAIN!) so I added their Jan 2020 top ten list together  multiplied it by 12  (good enough for an approx)= comes in at £4.5 billion. $6.2 billon


----------



## two sheds (Apr 2, 2021)

gosub said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hmm the last figures quoted were all fish and other food


----------



## gosub (Apr 2, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Hmm the last figures quoted were all fish and other food



yeah, as I said it was the Jan Food and Drink Federation thing thats been posted umpteen times ...and Fodd and Drink by their own figures are ball park $6.2


----------



## MrSki (Apr 2, 2021)

gosub said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


These figures don't seem to break down exports to the EU though. Just talking about world exports or am I reading it wrong?


----------



## two sheds (Apr 2, 2021)

MrSki said:


> These figures don't seem to break down exports to the EU though. Just talking about world exports or am I reading it wrong?


That's a very good point. So why don't the Europeans want our machinery including computers, gems, precious metals, vehicles, mineral fuels including oil, electrical machinery & equipment, pharmaceuticals, optical, technical, medical apparatus, aircraft, spacecraft, organic chemicals and plastics, eh? eh? What wrong with them??


----------



## MrSki (Apr 2, 2021)

two sheds said:


> That's a very good point. So why don't the Europeans want our machinery including computers, gems, precious metals, vehicles, mineral fuels including oil, electrical machinery & equipment, pharmaceuticals, optical, technical, medical apparatus, aircraft, spacecraft, organic chemicals and plastics, eh? eh? What wrong with them??


I expect they can produce it themselves without having to pay duties. Not sure about the precious metals though.


----------



## two sheds (Apr 2, 2021)

Coming over here taking our food


----------



## MrSki (Apr 2, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Coming over here taking our food


No longer want the shellfish.   Oh wait the UK voted to ban third country shell fish from entering the EU.
Hole in the foot there.


----------



## two sheds (Apr 2, 2021)

I don't eat shellfish since I was in Sicily and somebody gave me a mussel (or something other of similar but indeterminate species) and it was certainly fresh since it wriggled as it went down


----------



## Yossarian (Apr 2, 2021)

two sheds said:


> I don't eat shellfish since I was in Sicily and somebody gave me a mussel (or something other of similar but indeterminate species) and it was certainly fresh since it wriggled as it went down



They're a lot better cooked, though the opposite is true for oysters.


----------



## two sheds (Apr 2, 2021)

It may have been an oyster, I didn't ask it


----------



## MrSki (Apr 2, 2021)

two sheds said:


> I don't eat shellfish since I was in Sicily and somebody gave me a mussel (or something other of similar but indeterminate species) and it was certainly fresh since it wriggled as it went down


I am allergic and think that shellfish should be left in the sea but I am not a shellfish exporter either.


----------



## gosub (Apr 2, 2021)

MrSki said:


> Hope no-one on here works for a company that relied on the EU export market.



This Tweet is from an account that no longer exists.


----------



## two sheds (Apr 2, 2021)

Gone out of business already 

Eta: you heartless swine


----------



## gosub (Apr 3, 2021)

MrSki said:


> These figures don't seem to break down exports to the EU though. Just talking about world exports or am I reading it wrong?



I'm sure those figures are out there if bothered looking for them, though as I've said before probably best to wait til about June -July to have a better idea and filter out other factors.  Food and Drink gets cited though coz either its got the loudest PR or taking most disruptive hit (otherwise why not cite the more significant sector). But I'm not downplaying the impact on that sector - those are real businesses and people being impacted.  Public Health Vet certs system needs immediate overhaul.


----------



## MrSki (Apr 4, 2021)

Time to get talking again.


----------



## gosub (Apr 4, 2021)

MrSki said:


> Time to get talking again.



 Because a German Green MEP gave a speech over 6months ago?


----------



## MrSki (Apr 4, 2021)

gosub said:


> Because a German Green MEP gave a speech over 6months ago?


No because there is still a lot of stuff that needs ironing out to make it more workable.


----------



## gosub (Apr 4, 2021)

MrSki said:


> No because there is still a lot of stuff that needs ironing out to make it more workable.


like?


----------



## MrSki (Apr 4, 2021)

gosub said:


> like?


Northern Ireland seems to be the most pressing issue before it really kicks off.


----------



## gosub (Apr 4, 2021)

MrSki said:


> Northern Ireland seems to be the most pressing issue before it really kicks off.



I'm not sure how much influence the EU has on Sinn Fein politicians ignoring Covid guidelines for IRA funerals.


----------



## MrSki (Apr 5, 2021)




----------



## dessiato (Apr 5, 2021)

MrSki said:


>



I cannot express how deeply saddened I am by this. These last years of peace thrown away for jingoistic political posturing. A tragedy.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 5, 2021)

MrSki said:


>



Time to truss Johnson up for the oven then on removing him from the cooker season him with salt and pepper and throw him away as good for nothing


----------



## TopCat (Apr 6, 2021)

dessiato said:


> I cannot express how deeply saddened I am by this. These last years of peace thrown away for jingoistic political posturing. A tragedy.


Has war recommenced then?


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 6, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Has war recommenced then?


It's just been simmering the last 23 years


----------



## gosub (Apr 6, 2021)

Interesting piece in today's Telegraph   Europe’s economic response to Covid hangs in balance as Germany presses pause (telegraph.co.uk)

*Europe’s economic response to Covid hangs in balance as Germany presses pause*
With judges at the Karlsruhe court refusing to ratify the Recovery Fund, the EU’s hands are tied

ByTom Rees5 April 2021 • 5:00am

An unassuming Bauhaus building on the banks of the Rhine is where Europe’s latest crisis is threatening to erupt.
Not for the first time, eight judges inside the drab grey block in the German city of Karlsruhe are railing against the region’s move towards closer ties. This time, the judges on Germany’s Constitutional Court are holding back the ratification of the €750bn Recovery Fund – the cornerstone of the EU’s economic response to Covid.
“Last Friday’s decision bears a high risk of delaying, if not derailing, the crown jewel of the EU’s fiscal reaction to the current crisis,” warns Carsten Brzeski, ING Germany chief economist. “Once again, the German Constitutional Court is at the root cause of potential market tension.”
With the vaccine rollout ratcheting up pressure on Brussels, more delays and division could deal another blow to the European recovery.
“We are concerned the resulting setback to market sentiment might be substantial,” says Reinhard Cluse, UBS economist.
*Europe’s Hamiltonian moment*
Last year the Recovery Fund was hailed by leaders as a giant step towards closer ties in Europe and a “Hamiltonian moment” by some optimists – a reference to when Alexander Hamilton assumed US states’ debts in 1790, a leap towards creating a united country.
After much wrangling and reluctance from the north, EU members were persuaded to back a fund that would see the European Commission issue significant amounts of debt for the first time to pay for grants and loans. The north would share the economic cost of the larger Covid crisis in the south under the proposals.
But economists warn the landmark fund is losing its lustre. It pales in comparison to the huge, and growing, fiscal action in the US, the money could now be delayed and economists warn the rollout timing means it could provide little boost to the recovery.
The Recovery Fund’s main instrument – the Recovery and Resilience Facility – will provide €360bn in loans and €313bn in grants to EU countries as the flagship of the region’s Covid fiscal response.

The support is aimed at countries with the most strained public finances with southern members seeing their debt piles soar again during the pandemic. More frugal countries in the north, such as Germany and the Netherlands, gritted their teeth as they signed off on the joint debt that will spread risk across the region.
Italy and Spain will take the lion’s share of the money, receiving almost €70bn each in grants under the Recovery and Resilience Facility. As a share of their economies, indebted Greece and Croatia are also big winners.
*European solidarity under pressure *
Money from the fund was first expected to be delivered in the coming months before the end of the first half of 2021. But that timeline looks in serious doubt as each EU country ratifies the large extension of Brussels’ powers.
All 27 EU countries must approve it, meaning just one member can hold up its delivery. While the two chambers of the German parliament have ratified the deal, the process has been stopped by the Constitutional Court. A motion brought by a eurosceptic group called Citizen’s Will Alliance complained that European treaties prevent the bloc from taking on debt jointly. The judges will rule on a temporary injunction that would stop the law being rubber stamped, opening up a legal battle over the fund.
“The new case is another reminder that steps toward EU integration and burden-sharing are, and will likely remain, subject to intense legal scrutiny in Germany,” says Cluse.

Analysts expect the court to eventually sign off the agreement but it is not guaranteed and it could mean the fund is heavily delayed. Experts warn it could result in a long legal proceeding.
Brzeski says that risks “hurting the eurozone recovery and the belief in European solidarity”.
“At this stage, it is impossible to tell how the injunction and a possible lawsuit will evolve,” he says.
“The more momentous scenario is one where the legal spat hampers ratification until well after the second quarter deadline.”
Brzeski warns this would cause an “adverse reaction in European debt markets” with Greek, Portuguese and Italian bonds likely to be hit.
*‘The pace is extraordinarily slow’*
Even if the sceptics in Germany fail to block or significantly delay the Recovery Fund, economists are still concerned about the delivery of the grants and loans.
The €750bn was agreed last summer before the second and third waves caused even more economic damage across the region. France has returned to lockdown while Germany has extended tight Covid restrictions as cases rocket, propelled by more the infectious British variant.
Since the deal was first agreed, the fiscal firepower has been dwarfed by efforts in the US. Joe Biden has already pushed through a $1.9 trillion Covid relief bill and has now set his sights on an infrastructure plan that will add trillions of dollars more in longer-term investment.
The EU’s Recovery Fund is worth just 6pc of the bloc’s GDP and spread over six years. By comparison, Biden’s recent relief bill was an instant boost worth around 9pc of GDP.

While individual EU countries have also provided additional economic aid to workers and businesses, many have not been able to deliver packages anywhere near the size of the US or Britain’s even.
“It’s not a fiscal stimulus that’s comparable to what the US is doing, not only on the scale but also on the timetable,” says Andrew Kenningham, chief Europe economist at Capital Economics.
“The pace, even aside from the legal thing, is just extraordinarily slow. It reinforces this sort of impression that the EU when it does things jointly can’t act quickly enough.”
Rather than a crisis-fighting jolt for the economy, he says it has “morphed into long term structural” funding.
*Focus on structural investment over recovery*
The timing of the Recovery Fund’s rollout is likely to lessen its impact on the recovery. Less than £100bn of the funds will be available this year before the support steps up in size and peaks at almost £200bn in 2023 and 2024.
The last of grants will be delivered six years after Covid first struck, and may not be spent by recipients for even longer.
That makes it less effective at stimulating recoveries and more focused on structural investments, such as digitisation and green infrastructure.
However, it will still allow countries to make important investments without eating into the little fiscal firepower left in southern Europe as debt piles soar well above 100pc of GDP.
Club Med's rising debt
Bar chart with 4 bars.
Southern Europe economies debt levels as a percentage of GDP
View as data table, Club Med's rising debt
The chart has 1 X axis displaying categories.
The chart has 1 Y axis displaying values. Range: 0 to 250.




End of interactive chart.

Goldman Sachs economist Sven Jari Stehn says it will provide “expanded fiscal space” to members, largely offsetting Italian plans to rein in spending and “contributing to an expansionary stance in Spain”.
He estimates the GDP boost across the big four in the eurozone – France, Germany, Italy and Spain – will be 1pc over the next three years.
Jari Stehn cautions that the biggest risk lies in countries failing to use the funds quickly enough.
“If we focus on Italy and Spain, past experience within the European Multiannual Financial Framework shows that the two countries have been unable to spend more than 50pc of the available funds over a six-year horizon.”
Some economists also warn that some members, such as Italy, have patchy track records on effectively deploying public investment.
“One question is about the timing and the other one is will they use it well,” says Kenningham. “There could be corruption but it also could be used to prop up businesses which are not very efficient.”
Initially hailed as a giant step forward for the European project, the Recovery Fund could be hurt by familiar problems facing the region.
__________________________________________________________________________________________________


For me, much of this article is at the cornerstone of why Brexit.  The EUro, monetary union and its relationship with fiscal union.  Iirc When it was created it thought it would need an economic crisis to complete the project.  Well, if a once in 100 year pandemic isn't a sufficient event to drive squaring the circle, I'm not sure what would be.
And yet where EUrope is, with many several member states with debts significantly > GDP they want to throw 100billion this year at a problem the US is throwing 1.9trillon. And now potentially there is a chance the EU wont even deliver that

I've scowered the internet but can only find covid data that shows EUrope by national breakdown. It would be useful to see one of EU lumped together vs the US to compare.  Somehow I don't think the impact of this thing has been 1/19 as bad. 15/19 maybe.


----------



## NoXion (Apr 6, 2021)

Germany tightening the purse strings. Promising jam tomorrow.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 6, 2021)

NoXion said:


> Germany tightening the purse strings. Promising jam tomorrow.


They do do nice jam in germany


----------



## gosub (Apr 6, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> They do do nice jam in germany


They do decent jam here in the UK too

From the figures you could if you wanted extroplate what figures the UK would have been looking at, though would have been an even bigger argument about EU / ECB.  I don't know the figures but as is UK has probably already spent more than Spain and Italy are hoping to get, combined


----------



## MrSki (Apr 6, 2021)




----------



## two sheds (Apr 6, 2021)

Good interview from Spanish Ambassador there


----------



## gosub (Apr 6, 2021)

Ive had some fantastic rainy days in pubs


----------



## MrSki (Apr 6, 2021)




----------



## Doppelgänger (Apr 6, 2021)

MrSki said:


>



It goes contrary to the BoJo narrative. See no evil, hear no evil is the flavour of the day though...


----------



## Shechemite (Apr 7, 2021)

I never heard ‘Prof. Dorling (Uni of Oxford)’ (he ‘went to co-educational comprehensive Cheney school’ lol) pouring out his lamentations on YouTube before brexit


----------



## Shechemite (Apr 7, 2021)

You people are just odd.

“His popular appeal is not based on stoking up current prejudices. It is based on conviction, love and compassion. Just how cynical do you have to be not to see the hope and possibility in that?”





__





						The long read: Why Corbyn’s moral clarity could propel him to Number 10 – LabourList
					

It is accepted wisdom that for a party to be elected in a first past the post two-party system it has to appeal to swing voters,…




					labourlist.org
				




that article is genius. Like Goethe.


----------



## krtek a houby (Apr 7, 2021)

MrSki said:


>




Mainland UK?


----------



## MrSki (Apr 7, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> Mainland UK?


 Yeah that bit of the UK that is not NI.


----------



## seeformiles (Apr 7, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> They do do nice jam in germany



On top of toast with unsalted butter 😋


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 7, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> Mainland UK?


It's what people say if they can't spell britain


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 7, 2021)

MrSki said:


>



Give it a few months then this could be any street


----------



## dessiato (Apr 7, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> It's what people say if they can't spell Britain


CFY


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 7, 2021)

dessiato said:


> CFY


I see you're something of a capitalist


----------



## MrSki (Apr 7, 2021)




----------



## A380 (Apr 7, 2021)

MrSki said:


>



But two days later it did give us this great sign.


Which could only have been improved if the stick figure on fire had a diagonal line through it.


----------



## gosub (Apr 7, 2021)

A380 said:


> But two days later it did give us this great sign.
> 
> View attachment 262104View attachment 262105
> Which could only have been improved if the stick figure on fire had a diagonal line through it.



I think a sprinkling of lighter fluid and a match would added a certain something


----------



## NoXion (Apr 7, 2021)

So what _is_ the link between the rioting in NI and Brexit?


----------



## A380 (Apr 7, 2021)

NoXion said:


> So what _is_ the link between the rioting in NI and Brexit?


Loyalists pissed off that despite BoJo and the man frog promising that there would never be a border between Great Britain and NI there is a border between Great Britain and NI.

On this one thing they kinda have a point.


----------



## Badgers (Apr 7, 2021)

NoXion said:


> So what _is_ the link between the rioting in NI and Brexit?


This sort of lies/thing


----------



## editor (Apr 7, 2021)

NoXion said:


> So what _is_ the link between the rioting in NI and Brexit?


This might help 









						'The peace project is cracking at the seams' in Northern Ireland
					

The London Economic - "We said Brexit was incompatible with the Good Friday Agreement. They called it Project Fear." - Politics




					www.thelondoneconomic.com


----------



## Badgers (Apr 7, 2021)

Maybe this? 









						DUP MLA Trevor Clarke defiant over meeting with loyalist paramilitaries
					

A DUP MLA who has been reported to the Assembly's Standards Commissioner by a Sinn Fein politician for engaging with a loyalist paramilitary group to resolve a flags issue has insisted the move "smacks of double standards".




					m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 7, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Maybe this?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Did you see this story Badgers?








						Sectarian Rangers supporter who vandalised GAA fans' cars charged with urinating on graves
					

A Rangers fanatic who slashed car tyres of GAA fans who’d parked in the cemetery his mum is buried in has been charged with urinating on graves.




					m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk


----------



## MrSki (Apr 7, 2021)

Kicking off today/tonight. Bus driver was very lucky.


----------



## editor (Apr 7, 2021)

MrSki said:


> Kicking off today/tonight. Bus driver was very lucky.



What a bunch of utter cowardly cunts.


----------



## gosub (Apr 7, 2021)

editor said:


> What a bunch of utter cowardly cunts.



kids gone feral.


----------



## The39thStep (Apr 7, 2021)




----------



## Saul Goodman (Apr 8, 2021)

NoXion said:


> So what _is_ the link between the rioting in NI and Brexit?


Loyalist cunts haven't had an excuse to throw petrol bombs for a while. Now they have.


----------



## two sheds (Apr 8, 2021)

I wonder how they would take union of north/south


----------



## Saul Goodman (Apr 8, 2021)

two sheds said:


> I wonder how they would take union of north/south


Going off how they're taking this, I'm guessing 'not very well'.


----------



## MrSki (Apr 8, 2021)




----------



## Smokeandsteam (Apr 8, 2021)

NoXion said:


> So what _is_ the link between the rioting in NI and Brexit?



I was under the impression the rioting was in response to ‘double standards’ after the shinners weren’t prosecuted for mass attendance at Bobby Storey’s funeral. Maybe I’m wrong, and the loyalists have been studying those Food and Drink Federation January export figures and have lost their minds at the decline in cheese exports?


----------



## brogdale (Apr 8, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I was under the impression the rioting was in response to ‘double standards’ after the shinners weren’t prosecuted for mass attendance at Bobby Storey’s funeral. Maybe I’m wrong, and the loyalists have been studying those Food and Drink Federation January export figures and have lost their minds at the decline in cheese exports?


Or both.
Or those and other factors?


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Apr 8, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Or both.
> Or those and other factors?



There is plenty of evidence of loyalist goons stirring the shit over Storey’s funeral. I don’t doubt that the effect of lockdown and the pandemic has contributed to the ferocity and spread of the anti social violence. Attacking bus drivers over new regulatory paperwork seems a stretch though


----------



## MrSki (Apr 8, 2021)

From the horses mouth. Well worth the 2 minutes as a youth tries to explain it.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Apr 8, 2021)

MrSki said:


> From the horses mouth.



Is she one of the loyalist rioters?


----------



## brogdale (Apr 8, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> There is plenty of evidence of loyalist goons stirring the shit over Storey’s funeral. I don’t doubt that the effect of lockdown and the pandemic has contributed to the ferocity and spread of the anti social violence. Attacking buses drivers over new regulatory paperwork seems a stretch though


Agreed.
But, as we all know, Johnson's Brexit betrayal of the Loyalists is not perceived in terms of new regulatory paperwork, but a much more straightforward imposition of a sea border cutting off the province from the rest of the UK.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 8, 2021)

two sheds said:


> I wonder how they would take union of north/south


I think a lot of people assume it'd be a union where it'd just be a larger 26 co state, certainly you don't see anything else coming from ff or fg. But obvs you can't coerce unionists and loyalists into such a state which frankly wouldn't be so inviting to northern nationalists and republicans either. In the past there have been republican proposals like Eire Nua and there should be discussions round what a new republic would look like.


----------



## MrSki (Apr 8, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Is she one of the loyalist rioters?


I doubt it. Just a young person having to live through this shit & trying to explain to other youngsters what the hell is going on & why.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Apr 8, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Agreed.
> But, as we all know, Johnson's Brexit betrayal of the Loyalists is not perceived in terms of new regulatory paperwork, but a much more straightforward imposition of a sea border cutting off the province from the rest of the UK.
> 
> View attachment 262222



Don’t disagree with that. The loyalist mindset, the meta narrative of impending betrayal by Westminster is always active. The targeting and threats of port workers a few months ago was no doubt undertaken by the same people stirring the shit up over Storey’s funeral.


----------



## MrSki (Apr 8, 2021)

On the wall is written "THERE WAS NEVER A GOOD WAR OR A BAD PEACE"


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 8, 2021)

MrSki said:


> On the wall is written "THERE WAS NEVER A GOOD WAR OR A BAD PEACE"


So there is


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 8, 2021)

MrSki said:


> On the wall is written "THERE WAS NEVER A GOOD WAR OR A BAD PEACE"


What's the little yellow sign to the right of that say?


----------



## MrSki (Apr 8, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> What's the little yellow sign to the right of that say?


dunno. Can't read it.


----------



## Yossarian (Apr 8, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> What's the little yellow sign to the right of that say?


----------



## A380 (Apr 8, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> What's the little yellow sign to the right of that say?


Please don’t set yourself on fire accidentally.


----------



## gosub (Apr 8, 2021)

1919 -39 was a bad peace


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 8, 2021)

gosub said:


> 1919 -39 was a bad peace


you're obvs forgetting the tan war 1919-21, which has a certain relevance being as we're talking about ireland.


----------



## MrSki (Apr 8, 2021)




----------



## gosub (Apr 8, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> you're obvs forgetting the tan war 1919-21, which has a certain relevance being as we're talking about ireland.



No cos the point was the bad peace brought about by the treaty of versailles.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 8, 2021)

gosub said:


> No cos the point was the bad peace brought about by the treaty of versailles.


There isn't quite the unanimity on that that once there was


----------



## MrSki (Apr 8, 2021)

And the BBC finally give it more than 30 seconds on the news.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 8, 2021)

MrSki said:


> And the BBC finally give it more than 30 seconds on the news.



The BBC News channel has been covering it for days, as has Sky News, in fact it was the main story on the main BBC 6 o'clock news today, taking up about 20-25% of the bulletin.

But, I guess if people don't actually watch the news, it's easy to claim it's being ignored.  🤷‍♂️


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Apr 8, 2021)

Good points from Mr. Ski about both the response of the Tories and the news coverage. I look forward to the unfolding U75 discussion about the poverty and alienation amongst working class loyalist and republican youth, the abysmal failure of the Good Friday agreement to address those issues and the existential dead ends that their political class are intent on driving a new generation down into. A slow motion tragedy.

I’m sure everyone agrees that’s a more substantive and important discussion than those attempting to use these events play their anti-Brexit tune....


----------



## MrSki (Apr 8, 2021)

cupid_stunt said:


> The BBC News channel has been covering it for days, as has Sky News, in fact it was the main story on the main BBC 6 o'clock news today, taking up about 20-25% of the bulletin.
> 
> But, I guess if people don't actually watch the news, it's easy to claim it's being ignored.  🤷‍♂️


I watched BBC six o'clock news yesterday & it got about 30 seconds. It was the lead story today. Hence why I said the BBC finally gave it more than 30 seconds.


----------



## MrSki (Apr 8, 2021)

Also Johnson tweeted about it last night after his visit to Cornwall. Not high on his priority list is it?


----------



## editor (Apr 8, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I’m sure everyone agrees that’s a more substantive and important discussion than those attempting to use these events play their anti-Brexit tune....


Brexit is the driving force behind this awful violence and any discussion _has_ to involve the catastrophic mess it has created, even if it is a little awkward for Brexiteers.


----------



## two sheds (Apr 8, 2021)

editor said:


> even if it is a little awkward for Brexiteers.



I agree, but mainly for Johnson and his cabinet who've driven the whole process rather than people who actually voted for Brexit.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 8, 2021)

MrSki said:


> I watched BBC six o'clock news yesterday & it got about 30 seconds. It was the lead story today. Hence why I said the BBC finally gave it more than 30 seconds.



There was a much bigger story to cover on the BBC six o'clock news yesterday, concerning the AZ vaccine, so limited time for other news, inc. NI.

That doesn't alter the fact they have been giving NI ever increasing coverage on the news channel, as it has clearly developed into a bigger story. rather than just one of those fairly regular little blow-ups that have a habit of bubbling up from time to time in NI.


----------



## MrSki (Apr 8, 2021)

The point is that a lot of remainers commented at the time that brexit would fuck up the 20+ years of peace and were told it was project fear. A lot of brexiteers said they knew exactly what they were voting for so surely should own it. Certainly the tories who pushed such a shit deal through. Johnson & Gove careers should be finished. Won't hold my breath though.


----------



## editor (Apr 8, 2021)

two sheds said:


> I agree, but mainly for Johnson and his cabinet who've driven the whole process rather than people who actually voted for Brexit.


So people who voted for Brexit actually thought that Johnson would have the ability to sort out the whole border issue?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 8, 2021)

I doubt many of the people voting in the referendum gave the Good Friday Agreement a second's thought. Martin McGuinness warned that Brexit would fuck up the GFA in the months before the vote, but he wasn't widely heard.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Apr 8, 2021)

editor said:


> Brexit is the driving force behind this awful violence and any discussion _has_ to involve the catastrophic mess it has created, even if it is a little awkward for Brexiteers.



The driving force behind these events is Loyalism’s default setting: the paranoia that Westminster is ready to abandon its interests. Whether it’s flags, the PSNI, Brexit, Bobby Storey’s funeral, marches or myriad other issues that’s the propulsive force. Add in a year of young people being locked down and losing the little economic status they might have had and you’ve got all of the necessary ingredients. The concept that this is a Brexit riot is, frankly, shite


----------



## gosub (Apr 8, 2021)

two sheds said:


> I agree, but mainly for Johnson and his cabinet who've driven the whole process rather than people who actually voted for Brexit.



You'd hope. But old enough to remember


----------



## MrSki (Apr 8, 2021)

cupid_stunt said:


> There was a much bigger story to cover on the BBC six o'clock news yesterday, concerning the AZ vaccine, so limited time for other news, inc. NI.


If that level of violence had been in say Manchester it would have been a much bigger story. It comes across to me that the BBC does not like to slag off Johnson & hence the lack of coverage until it could not be ignored any longer. It is Johnson's lies to the people of NI that is the partial trigger to this.


----------



## gosub (Apr 8, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I doubt many of the people voting in the referendum gave the Good Friday Agreement a second's thought. Martin McGuinness warned that Brexit would fuck up the GFA in the months before the vote, but he wasn't widely heard.



It was one of the reasons EFTA type leaving made more sense.


----------



## muscovyduck (Apr 8, 2021)

no one was talking about northern ireland because you couldn't get a word in over the sect of remain voters screaming RACIST at everyone on twitter


----------



## MrSki (Apr 8, 2021)

Still brought out the water cannons tonight.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Apr 8, 2021)

muscovyduck said:


> no one was talking about northern ireland because you couldn't get a word in over the sect of remain voters screaming RACIST at everyone on twitter



The attempt to airbrush the genuine spark for riots: the refusal to prosecute the Shinners over Bobby Storey’s funeral and the PSNI crackdown on loyalist OCG’s is abysmal. But the disingenuous attempts by remain to dismiss the genuine grievances - and both the paranoia and the historical privilege of loyalism - that lie behind _all _of these types of riot by Loyalist communities are not even worth engaging with.


----------



## MrSki (Apr 8, 2021)

So are you trying to say it has NOTHING to do with Brexit?


----------



## editor (Apr 8, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> The driving force behind these events is Loyalism’s default setting: the paranoia that Westminster is ready to abandon its interests. Whether it’s flags, the PSNI, Brexit, Bobby Storey’s funeral, marches or myriad other issues that’s the propulsive force. Add in a year of young people being locked down and losing the little economic status they might have had and you’ve got all of the necessary ingredients. The concept that this is a Brexit riot is, frankly, shite
> 
> 
> View attachment 262328


Not sure anyone has called it a 'Brexit riot' but are you_ really_ asserting that the current shitty violence has got absolutely nothing to do with Brexit?


----------



## Maggot (Apr 8, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Good points from Mr. Ski about both the response of the Tories and the news coverage. I look forward to the unfolding U75 discussion about the poverty and alienation amongst working class loyalist and republican youth, the abysmal failure of the Good Friday agreement to address those issues and the existential dead ends that their political class are intent on driving a new generation down into. A slow motion tragedy.


Whataboutery at its finest.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Apr 8, 2021)

editor said:


> Not sure anyone has called it a 'Brexit riot' but are you_ really_ asserting that the current shitty violence has got absolutely nothing to do with Brexit?



I haven’t said anything remotely like that. Brexit - like 1 million other things - feeds into the Loyalist mindset in a specific and historically and politically constructed way. But, and let’s be honest here: the fact that this debate is in one of the myriad remain nostalgia threads on here speaks volumes about how it’s being spun....


----------



## gosub (Apr 8, 2021)

editor said:


> Not sure anyone has called it a 'Brexit riot' but are you_ really_ asserting that the current shitty violence has got absolutely nothing to do with Brexit?


It wouldn't have needed Brexit, people are bored and frustrated with enough other circumstances. But not saying Brexit is n't a factor


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Apr 8, 2021)

editor said:


> Brexit is the driving force behind this awful violence


----------



## Steel Icarus (Apr 8, 2021)

editor said:


> So people who voted for Brexit actually thought that Johnson would have the ability to sort out the whole border issue?


Given he wasn't Prime Minister at the time I don't think anybody considered what Johnson would do with Brexit, let alone the border issue.


----------



## Supine (Apr 8, 2021)

S☼I said:


> Given he wasn't Prime Minister at the time I don't think anybody considered what Johnson would do with Brexit, let alone the border issue.



We obviously considered what the Conservative party would do though.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Apr 8, 2021)

Supine said:


> We obviously considered what the Conservative party would do though.


I didn't. I just considered whether to leave or stay in the EU.


----------



## gosub (Apr 8, 2021)

editor said:


> So people who voted for Brexit actually thought that Johnson would have the ability to sort out the whole border issue?


No, number of bomb incidents when I was growing up, thought we'd go for the type of Brexit which didn't create a border issue.


----------



## gosub (Apr 8, 2021)

Supine said:


> We obviously considered what the Conservative party would do though.



Yeah, but turns out its hard to second guess batshit


----------



## two sheds (Apr 8, 2021)

editor said:


> So people who voted for Brexit actually thought that Johnson would have the ability to sort out the whole border issue?


I've lived in the Netherlands for 5 years and originally was enthusiastic for membership of the EU. Largely because of discussions on here though I did think again. I actually didn't vote because I didn't think it would make much difference because the tories are in power and so we're largely fucked either way  

The border was just one factor though, and I respect people who believed that continuing as part of the European suprastate wasn't going to do working class people any good at all.


----------



## MrSki (Apr 8, 2021)




----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Apr 8, 2021)

MrSki said:


>




Tbf if remainer Cameron hadn’t called it...

Then if remainer May hadn’t tied us in to hard Brexit with her red lines...

Remainers need to own this.


----------



## MrSki (Apr 8, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Tbf if remainer Cameron hadn’t called it...
> 
> Then if remainer May hadn’t tied us in to hard Brexit with her red lines...
> 
> Remainers need to own this.


Leavers new exactly what they were voting for.   Shame if it wasn't for the pesky press billionaires spreading their anti EU lies & giving Farage a voice then none of this shit would have happened.


----------



## Supine (Apr 8, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Tbf if remainer Cameron hadn’t called it...
> 
> Then if remainer May hadn’t tied us in to hard Brexit with her red lines...
> 
> Remainers need to own this.



not sure if you’re being trying to be funny, sarcastic or idiotic


----------



## gosub (Apr 8, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Tbf if remainer Cameron hadn’t called it...
> 
> Then if remainer May hadn’t tied us in to hard Brexit with her red lines...
> 
> Remainers need to own this.



nah there had to be a referendum, the treaties and change since people (the youngest now retirement age) voted to join the Common Market.  When exactly were they planning on consulting on the direction of travel?


----------



## MrSki (Apr 8, 2021)




----------



## gosub (Apr 8, 2021)

May,...
nah can't fathom what happened there at all

Well I can but whythefuck


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Apr 8, 2021)

gosub said:


> nah there had to be a referendum, the treaties and change since people (the youngest now retirement age) voted to join the Common Market.  When exactly were they planning on consulting on the direction of travel?



Cameron didn’t call it for that reason though, he did it to stop the infighting in his party and didn’t consider leaving to be a possibility, even though once he called it leave became a certainty as the status quo for so many had been so shit for so long.


----------



## gosub (Apr 8, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Cameron didn’t call it for that reason though, he did it to stop the infighting in his party and didn’t consider leaving to be a possibility, even though once he called it leave became a certainty as the status quo for so many had been so shit for so long.


Shame he told the civil service not to workshop the possibility and shame on them for not doing so anyway, hardly silver service


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Apr 8, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Cameron didn’t call it for that reason though, he did it to stop the infighting in his party and didn’t consider leaving to be a possibility, even though once he called it leave became a certainty as the status quo for so many had been so shit for so long.



And let’s not forget that the status quo that was so shit, and which people were kicking against, included the GFA settlement. And, if IIRC nobody gave much of a toss. And when you come to think about it their disinterest extended to the poverty, inequality and alienation that has flourished in large parts of Leave voting Britain.

I suppose for some things were better when they could pretend most people didn't exist and could safely be ignored


----------



## Supine (Apr 8, 2021)

Hahaha 

Rabid brexiteer arguing on Newsnight for closer integration with Europe because of the issues in Ireland.


----------



## MrSki (Apr 8, 2021)

Supine said:


> Hahaha
> 
> Rabid brexiteer arguing on Newsnight for closer integration with Europe because of the issues in Ireland.


Re-joining the single market would make a lot of sense.


----------



## The39thStep (Apr 8, 2021)

I love the way that the solution to the UK still occupying six counties in the north of Ireland is apparently solved by the North rejoining the EU's single market.


----------



## MrSki (Apr 8, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> I love the way that the solution to the UK still occupying six counties in the north of Ireland is apparently solved by the North rejoining the EU's single market.


Not NI the whole of the UK.


----------



## The39thStep (Apr 8, 2021)




----------



## The39thStep (Apr 8, 2021)

MrSki said:


> Not NI the whole of the UK.


----------



## Doppelgänger (Apr 8, 2021)

MrSki said:


> Re-joining the single market would make a lot of sense.


Northern Ireland effectively is in the Single Market still.


----------



## Dystopiary (Apr 8, 2021)

Brexit, the EU itself, poverty, the border, British - or more specifically - English hedgemony; selfish and ignorant government handling of the pandemic (profit before people), the subsequent need for lockdown and the resulting frustrations and fear, and for many people grief (not _just_ talking Northern Ireland here). Just one mess after another. Because greedy bastards run the show.


----------



## MrSki (Apr 8, 2021)

Doppelgänger said:


> Northern Ireland effectively is in the Single Market still.


Yeah as I said above it would help in the whole of the UK re-joined the SM and also the CU to keep the farmers & fisherfolk happy too.


----------



## Humberto (Apr 8, 2021)

You'd think we are governed by incompetent shit heads in Westminster.


----------



## Larry O'Hara (Apr 8, 2021)

BobDavis said:


> I can understand why the op posted this & I am sympathetic. I will admit I was in denial after the ref. I thought no this just is not going to happen. This is just so wasteful & pointless. Then came the years of political turmoil & It looked possibly it might not happen. In the end though I thought it probably would because that is what people voted for.
> 
> All the arguments like possibly void referendum due to it being legally only advisory & so on could not get away from  that people had voted to leave in a binary vote. People I knew who voted leave. I felt their quiet anger while they thought their vote might be denied. Then the general election came & most people I knew said they thought Johnson was a wanker but they were voting Tory just to get things sorted. I knew it was lost then & I let it go. All the anger went & now I am going with it. Despite my love of going to our near European neighbours I am only ever going to go over there on camping trips.
> 
> I was born in this country. I will die here & English is the only language I speak more than a few words of so I need to stop pretending I am as European as I thought I was. The op needs to let brexit go & concentrate how they can do what they want to do with things as they are now. For me politically the most important thing is to right the wrongs that exist in this country.


Bob, as somebody who supported Brexit (or rather GLexit=Green Left Exit) I appreciate your reflective sentiments. What I see as tragic is that Bojo and the rest of the Tory clowns are unprincipled crooks whose vision is not mine, that is the new battle.  In which of course Johnson's Little Echo Starmer will play no part, except as the enemy.


----------



## MrSki (Apr 9, 2021)

He knew exactly what he was doing. In his own words.


----------



## andysays (Apr 9, 2021)

editor said:


> Brexit is the driving force behind this awful violence and any discussion _has_ to involve the catastrophic mess it has created, even if it is a little awkward for Brexiteers.


Some might say that the real reason for the recent upsurge in violence (which as I understand never went completely away) is that even though the GFA papered over some of the cracks, nothing was really done to address longstanding social problems and divisions within Northern Ireland. 

The blame for that lies primarily with the British government and the established parties in NI, and perhaps with the Irish government and the EU.

It certainly doesn't lie with ordinary people who voted to leave the EU, and it's becoming a little boring that some people, with little appreciation of the long term issues, seem intent on continuing to blame them.


----------



## ska invita (Apr 9, 2021)

Disruption was one of the selling points of Brexit
This is partly what kicking the established order looks like, no?


----------



## dessiato (Apr 9, 2021)

A380 said:


> But two days later it did give us this great sign.
> 
> View attachment 262104View attachment 262105
> Which could only have been improved if the stick figure on fire had a diagonal line through it.


Been there, done that. The sign's too late for me.


----------



## A380 (Apr 9, 2021)

dessiato said:


> Been there, done that. The sign's too late for me.


TBF, would a sign have helped? Really?


----------



## dessiato (Apr 9, 2021)

A380 said:


> TBF, would a sign have helped? Really?


Which time? ☹


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Apr 9, 2021)

andysays said:


> It certainly doesn't lie with ordinary people who voted to leave the EU, and it's becoming a little boring that some people, with little appreciation of the long term issues, seem intent on continuing to blame them.



It’s not just the erroneous blaming, it’s the all consuming obsession with Brexit, where all political roads must be directed back to the referendum to ‘prove’ that remain was right. Not only is that wrong and politically disabling but what could be more alienating to young workers than listening to older types constantly harping back to the past? An 18 year old in Belfast angry at lockdown, their life chances (already shit and getting worse) going down the tube and a bleak future really isn’t going to give much slack to a load of dad types harping on about the solution to their problems being closer economic trading arrangements with Macron and Merkel.

Cant get a job? Brexit. Cant get a home? Brexit Cops on your back? Brexit Shinners being treated preferentially by the state? Brexit etc

It’s otherworldly stuff. Cult-like and irrelevant to the lived experience of ordinary people.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Apr 9, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Cant get a job? Brexit. Cant get a home? Brexit Cops on your back? Brexit Shinners being treated preferentially by the state? Brexit etc



But you can get a vaccine that stops you from dying, unlike the people in the Republic? Just a lucky gamble, etc.


----------



## brogdale (Apr 9, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> It’s not just the erroneous blaming, it’s the all consuming obsession with Brexit, where all political roads must be directed back to the referendum to ‘prove’ that remain was right. Not only is that wrong and politically disabling but what could be more alienating to young workers than listening to older types constantly harping back to the past? An 18 year old in Belfast angry at lockdown, their life chances (already shit and getting worse) going down the tube and a bleak future really isn’t going to give much slack to a load of dad types harping on about the solution to their problems being closer economic trading arrangements with Macron and Merkel.
> 
> Cant get a job? Brexit. Cant get a home? Brexit Cops on your back? Brexit Shinners being treated preferentially by the state? Brexit etc
> 
> It’s otherworldly stuff. Cult-like and irrelevant to the lived experience of ordinary people.


Yes, blaming the unrest exclusively on the NI protocol could be seen as an extension of the 'cult-like' mind-set of the FBPE brigade. But, then again, seeing pro-Brexit elements joining in with the Government tendency to diminish or ignore the imposition of the sea-border as one element of the grievances driving the unrest also takes on a 'cult-like' dimension.

As we agreed yesterday, Johnson's betrayal of the governing political wing of Loyalism, has given credibility to the long-established tradition of victimhood and community persecution that drives Unionist voting and maintains an underlying anger within the community.

It is not wrong to point out that in order to secure Brexit, as it exists, Johnson repeatedly lied about the impact on the province, cast anyone saying otherwise as 'scaremongers' and ultimately betrayed the trust of the DUP and their support.

To deny that Brexit plays a part in where we are now with NI is fanciful.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 9, 2021)

So I see baton rounds and water cannon used against nationalists/republicans but not loyalists/unionists. Strange that


----------



## andysays (Apr 9, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> So I see baton rounds and water cannon used against nationalists/republicans but not loyalists/unionists. Strange that


It's because of Brexit, silly


----------



## MickiQ (Apr 9, 2021)

MrSki said:


>



That statement belies reality on the ground, violence has achieved something that complaining hasn't. It has got the Govt to actually pay attention to the problem. I rather doubt they have a viable solution though.


----------



## MrSki (Apr 9, 2021)

From The Times.


----------



## gosub (Apr 9, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> It’s not just the erroneous blaming, it’s the all consuming obsession with Brexit, where all political roads must be directed back to the referendum to ‘prove’ that remain was right. Not only is that wrong and politically disabling but what could be more alienating to young workers than listening to older types constantly harping back to the past? An 18 year old in Belfast angry at lockdown, their life chances (already shit and getting worse) going down the tube and a bleak future really isn’t going to give much slack to a load of dad types harping on about the solution to their problems being closer economic trading arrangements with Macron and Merkel.
> 
> Cant get a job? Brexit. Cant get a home? Brexit Cops on your back? Brexit Shinners being treated preferentially by the state? Brexit etc
> 
> It’s otherworldly stuff. Cult-like and irrelevant to the lived experience of ordinary people.



Concur. Its like dealing with the toaster from Red Dwarf.


----------



## gosub (Apr 9, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> That statement belies reality on the ground, violence has achieved something that complaining hasn't. It has got the Govt to actually pay attention to the problem. I rather doubt they have a viable solution though.



Spose we could nuke Belgium


----------



## A380 (Apr 9, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> So I see baton rounds and water cannon used against nationalists/republicans but not loyalists/unionists. Strange that


Water canon are made in Germany, so an EU product that can only be used on those who voted remain.


----------



## MysteryGuest (Apr 9, 2021)

Dystopiary said:


> or more specifically - English hedgemony;



Well the DUP have boxed themselves in for sure.


----------



## editor (Apr 9, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Not only is that wrong and politically disabling but what could be more alienating to young workers than listening to older types constantly harping back to the past?


The vast majority of young people were opposed to Brexit, so they've every right to be angry about a decision that affects their future being brought on by 'older types'. 









						How did young people vote in the Brexit referendum? - Full Fact
					

A poll estimated that 73% of under-25 voters voted Remain in the EU referendum. Other polls have reached a similar figure, but it’s impossible to say exactly what the true figure is.




					fullfact.org


----------



## brogdale (Apr 10, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Yes, blaming the unrest exclusively on the NI protocol could be seen as an extension of the 'cult-like' mind-set of the FBPE brigade. But, then again, seeing pro-Brexit elements joining in with the Government tendency to diminish or ignore the imposition of the sea-border as one element of the grievances driving the unrest also takes on a 'cult-like' dimension.
> 
> As we agreed yesterday, Johnson's betrayal of the governing political wing of Loyalism, has given credibility to the long-established tradition of victimhood and community persecution that drives Unionist voting and maintains an underlying anger within the community.
> 
> ...


Guardian carrying a statement from some Loyalist voices (LCC) that are putting the NI protocol front and centre of the unrest, FWIW:



> But the LCC said there had been a “spectacular collective failure” to understand their anger over Brexit and other issues, and the border protocol must be renegotiated. Critics of the departure deal’s Northern Ireland protocol say a border is in effect in the Irish Sea, leaving unionists feeling betrayed.
> 
> “We have repeatedly urged HM Government, political leaders and Institutions to take seriously our warnings of the dangerous consequences of imposing this hard border on us and the need for earnest dialogue to resolve matters. We reiterate that message now,” the LCC said.


----------



## TopCat (Apr 10, 2021)

I don’t think pandering to the cunts over bonfires and parades and expressions of sectarian bigotry is the right way forward.


----------



## brogdale (Apr 10, 2021)

TopCat said:


> I don’t think pandering to the cunts over bonfires and parades and expressions of sectarian bigotry is the right way forward.


No, but in the context of some pro-Brexit attempts to portray the causes of the unrest as anything but the protocol, the clear expression of how some Loyalists perceive the import of the sea-border betrayal is significant.


----------



## gosub (Apr 10, 2021)

brogdale said:


> No, but in the context of some pro-Brexit attempts to portray the causes of the unrest as anything but the protocol, the clear expression of how some Loyalists perceive the import of the sea-border betrayal is significant.



Sorry, I think what's more evident is the contingent saying that its ALL Brexit, against acceptance right up to NI Minister acknowledging that it is a factor


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 10, 2021)

I think the death of prince philip shows how far the state will go in attempts to regain the propaganda initiative


----------



## Badgers (Apr 10, 2021)

gosub said:


> Sorry, I think what's more evident is the contingent saying that its ALL Brexit, against acceptance right up to NI Minister acknowledging that it is a factor


As I mentioned up thread the UK government admit it is almost all down to Brexit. If you have a better source let me know.


----------



## brogdale (Apr 10, 2021)

gosub said:


> Sorry, I think what's more evident is the contingent saying that its ALL Brexit, against acceptance right up to NI Minister acknowledging that it is a factor


I'm more interested in what's being said on the ground, tbh.


----------



## ska invita (Apr 10, 2021)

Badgers said:


> As I mentioned up thread the UK government admit it is almost all down to Brexit. If you have a better source let me know.


Gosub'll post another Daily Telegraph link in 10...9....8....7....


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 10, 2021)

Badgers said:


> As I mentioned up thread the UK government admit it is almost all down to Brexit. If you have a better source let me know.


I see you trust government utterances on this.

But like brogdale I'd like confirmation from those on the spot


----------



## gosub (Apr 10, 2021)

Badgers said:


> As I mentioned up thread the UK government admit it is almost all down to Brexit. If you have a better source let me know.


Difficult to get one what with Stormont having been suspended for over 4 years


----------



## Badgers (Apr 10, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> I see you trust government utterances on this.
> 
> But like brogdale I'd like confirmation from those on the spot


I have the online meeting recorded but can't post it. PM me if you want mate.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 10, 2021)

gosub said:


> Difficult to get one what with Stormont having been suspended for over 4 years


The loyalists perhaps


----------



## sleaterkinney (Apr 10, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> But you can get a vaccine that stops you from dying, unlike the people in the Republic? Just a lucky gamble, etc.


If you lived in the uk you’d be twice as likely to be dead from COVID. Unlucky.









						Mortality Analyses - Johns Hopkins Coronavirus Resource Center
					

How does mortality differ across countries? Examining the number of deaths per confirmed case and per 100,000 population. A global comparison.




					coronavirus.jhu.edu


----------



## gosub (Apr 10, 2021)

sleaterkinney said:


> If you lived in the uk you’d be twice as likely to be dead from COVID. Unlucky.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Not to mention Cheltenham


----------



## sleaterkinney (Apr 10, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> . Not only is that wrong and politically disabling but what could be more alienating to young workers than listening to older types constantly harping back to the past?



This never happens in NI btw.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Apr 10, 2021)

gosub said:


> Difficult to get one what with Stormont having been suspended for over 4 years


It’s been running for the past year?.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Apr 10, 2021)

sleaterkinney said:


> If you lived in the uk you’d be twice as likely to be dead from COVID. Unlucky.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Not if you caught it today, or even a month ago, like my step great aunt did, but she was just unlucky to live in Holland.


----------



## The39thStep (Apr 10, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Gosub'll post another Daily Telegraph link in 10...9....8....7....


Telegraph tbf have been remarkably consistent highlighting Brexit including the NIP ( not the Northumbria one), the Sinn Fein funeral and confidence in policing, sense of being left behind in Loyalist communities, criminal gangs especially 'the rogue faction - the South East Antrim UDA - reacting to recent police operations targeting its criminal empire. ' and a political crisis in unionism and the DUP with support rising for a border poll on Irish unity.


----------



## gosub (Apr 10, 2021)

sleaterkinney said:


> It’s been running for the past year?.


Show's how much i've been paying attention recently. Sorry (a lot on my plate at mo, same as everybody else.)


----------



## sleaterkinney (Apr 10, 2021)

gosub said:


> Show's how much i've been paying attention recently. Sorry (a lot on my plate at mo, same as everybody else.)


Hopefully better times ahead.


----------



## MrSki (Apr 10, 2021)




----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 10, 2021)

MrSki said:


>


Sure this was in the news some months back


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 10, 2021)

Yeh February 2020 Brexit will have soon cost the UK more than all its payments to the EU over the past 47 years put together


----------



## andysays (Apr 10, 2021)

Badgers said:


> As I mentioned up thread the UK government admit it is almost all down to Brexit. If you have a better source let me know.


To be more specific, it's the Northern Ireland Secretary who has said it's almost all down to Brexit, thus neatly avoiding the issue of what he and his predecessors have been doing for the past two decades since the GFA to actively improve the social divisions such that rioting isn't seen as an appropriate response to political differences.

The immediate trigger to this may be the fallout from a botched Brexit, but the underlying reasons have been there since long before Brexit was even a gleam in Nigel Farage's eye...


----------



## MrSki (Apr 10, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Yeh February 2020 Brexit will have soon cost the UK more than all its payments to the EU over the past 47 years put together


I wonder where the figure will be by the end of 2021. Probably costing the UK more than its total membership fees along with the cost of the other shite that goes with it. FOM, NI, etc.

I know the benefits might take a while to show themselves & I am not going to hold my breath but apart from the vaccine debacle I am not yet aware of any.


----------



## Doppelgänger (Apr 10, 2021)

MrSki said:


> I wonder where the figure will be by the end of 2021. Probably costing the UK more than its total membership fees along with the cost of the other shite that goes with it. FOM, NI, etc.
> 
> I know the benefits might take a while to show themselves & I am not going to hold my breath but apart from the vaccine debacle I am not yet aware of any.


You're struggling to name benefits as there aren't any.

Someone will be along in a min naming an advantage to leaving the EU, but it will be a sad handful.

From an overall position, the UK is poorer and has lost out.

I am prepared to be wrong on this, but as Rees-Mogg said it would be 50 years before there is a real Brexit dividend. So not in my lifetime, hooray!


----------



## BobDavis (Apr 10, 2021)

Most leave voters would name the main benefit of brexit as leaving the EU. There has been very little shift in opinion of the leave voters or the remain voters. Anybody who thinks that most leave voters will begin to regret their decision to vote leave will be waiting a long time I think. I could point out to my neighbour any disadvantage of brexit you like & he will just shake his head & say “well it’s obvious they would punish us but fuck’em”.


----------



## BobDavis (Apr 10, 2021)

I think that some city dwellers may not have met that many leave voters & know them personally. The small town where I live voted well over 70% to leave. That is 3 out of 4 voted leave. A Tory MP is always returned with a huge majority. These are people from all walks of life from the not wealthy to the quite wealthy. When you live in a small town for decades & you are a friendly & chatty person like me you tend to know a lot of people not necessarily as friends but as acquaintances you chat to in the street.

I my view what most of these people have in common is that they are deeply deeply conservative. Their almost universal racism comes from a belief that people who do not look & think like them do not belong here. Apart from package holidays to Spain & coach trips or river cruises on the European mainland they are not really interested in “abroad”. They go on holidays to enjoy themselves in better weather not to seek enlightenment.

I do not believe any of them will ever regret voting to leave the EU as any conflict with the EU & any disadvantages resulting from that conflict will make them more certain that the decision to leave the EU was the right one.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 10, 2021)

Doppelgänger said:


> You're struggling to name benefits as there aren't any.
> 
> Someone will be along in a min naming an advantage to leaving the EU, but it will be a sad handful.
> 
> ...


on the plus side ukip has become irrelevant and nigel farage is reduced to delivering greetings for money.


----------



## Yossarian (Apr 10, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> on the plus side ukip has become irrelevant and nigel farage is reduced to delivering greetings for money.



For now... I reckon by the next election or the one after that they'll be at the "Real Brexit has never been tried" phase.


----------



## BobDavis (Apr 10, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> on the plus side ukip has become irrelevant and nigel farage is reduced to delivering greetings for money.


I think this is just yesterday’s news though. We have left the EU & we will not be rejoining anytime soon. In years to come the trading relationship we now have with the EU will become normal & our loss of freedom of movement & right to work in the EU will become a distant memory particularly to future generations who have never known the rights we enjoyed along with EU membership.

We don’t particularly hate other countries we regard as friendly ie USA Australia & so on & yet we have similar or less advantaged trading relationships & rights to travel & work in those countries as we do now with EU countries.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 10, 2021)

BobDavis said:


> I think this is just yesterday’s news though. We have left the EU & we will not be rejoining anytime soon. In years to come the trading relationship we now have with the EU will become normal & our loss of freedom of movement & right to work in the EU will become a distant memory particularly to future generations who have never known the rights we enjoyed along with EU membership.
> 
> We don’t particularly hate other countries we regard as friendly ie USA Australia & so on & yet we have similar or less advantaged trading relationships & rights to travel & work in those countries as we do now with EU countries.


it's a plus and i'll take my benefits where i can find them, few, fleeting and far between tho they may be


----------



## existentialist (Apr 10, 2021)

MrSki said:


> dunno. Can't read it.


"fainites"


----------



## TopCat (Apr 10, 2021)

Doppelgänger said:


> You're struggling to name benefits as there aren't any.
> 
> Someone will be along in a min naming an advantage to leaving the EU, but it will be a sad handful.
> 
> ...


Thanks for this refreshing insight.


----------



## MrSki (Apr 10, 2021)

BobDavis said:


> I do not believe any of them will ever regret voting to leave the EU as any conflict with the EU & any disadvantages resulting from that conflict will make them more certain that the decision to leave the EU was the right one.


Until they have to pay for visas to travel & find their driving licence is no longer valid in their country of choice. Still they will blame the EU for this rather than those responsible.


----------



## BobDavis (Apr 10, 2021)

MrSki said:


> Until they have to pay for visas to travel & find their driving licence is no longer valid in their country of choice. Still they will blame the EU for this rather than those responsible.


The ETIAS visa waiver which I think is coming in a couple of years will be valid for 3 yrs & will not cost much. Once it is all sorted a plane load of UK package tourists landing in Spain will not take that much longer to get out of the airport than before. Plenty I know prefer Turkey nowadays anyway. 

I think those that are really affected by brexit will have seen this coming & voted remain. Apart from the terminally stupid & there are plenty of them those that have enjoyed long term caravan or motorhome trips around Europe & spending winters in Spain will have voted remain as will owners of holiday homes & mobile homes in France & Spain who were used pre brexit of coming & going whenever they wanted & spending most of the year abroad. The 90 day in 180 day rule for foreign tourists is common throughout the world & anybody with any sense knew that ending free movement works both ways.

Apart from brexit disadvantaging pleasure seekers anybody doing business with the EU who had any sense will also have been on the remain side. It is remain voters pouring bile & venom on leave voters who have the regrets not the leave voters themselves. To see all leave voters as stupid is understandable but fact is most leave voters are not being disadvantaged by brexit in any meaningful way & I don’t think a few more minutes getting out of the airport before their 2 week pissup in the Spanish sun will be seen as any reason not to have voted leave.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Apr 10, 2021)

MrSki said:


> Until they have to pay for visas to travel & find their driving licence is no longer valid in their country of choice. Still they will blame the EU for this rather than those responsible.



They aren’t going to drive abroad or require a visa for a weekend abroad.

Those who do are rich enough to comfortably buy a visa or exemption and someone to help with driving licenses


----------



## Doppelgänger (Apr 10, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Thanks for this refreshing insight.


You're welcome.

Care to add anything constructive?


----------



## MrSki (Apr 10, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> They aren’t going to drive abroad or require a visa for a weekend abroad.
> 
> Those who do are rich enough to comfortably buy a visa or exemption and someone to help with driving licenses


So no more booze cruises then? You not going to get many tinnies if you are a foot passenger. Nobody hires a car when they go on holiday?


----------



## Doppelgänger (Apr 10, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> They aren’t going to drive abroad or require a visa for a weekend abroad.
> 
> Those who do are rich enough to comfortably buy a visa or exemption and someone to help with driving licenses


Really?

To enter Schengen you'll needs the ETIAS as a third country. At least as the way it stands now.

You have more money, great. It won't be helping you though.

You can't just shout "do you know who I am" and expect preferential treatment. I think Brits holidaying in the EU will be in for a rude awakening


----------



## MrSki (Apr 10, 2021)




----------



## The39thStep (Apr 10, 2021)

MrSki said:


> Until they have to pay for visas to travel & find their driving licence is no longer valid in their country of choice. Still they will blame the EU for this rather than those responsible.





Doppelgänger said:


> Really?
> 
> To enter Schengen you'll needs the ETIAS as a third country. At least as the way it stands now.
> 
> ...



Don't need a visa or ETIAS to  holiday in the EU if you are from the UK at the moment and you can use a UK licence to drive on holiday.  The driving license exchange is for residents only. ETIAS won't commence until next year at the earliest, it will be five minute job online  before you go on holiday. Will cost around 7 euros for a three year certificate.


----------



## MrSki (Apr 10, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Don't need a visa or ETIAS to  holiday in the EU if you are from the UK at the moment and you can use a UK licence to drive on holiday.  The driving license exchange is for residents only. ETIAS won't commence until next year at the earliest, it will be five minute job online  before you go on holiday. Will cost around 7 euros for a three year certificate.


Thank you for the clarification. 

Hopefully these will not be part of any sanctions relating to the UK breaking arrangements in the NIP.


----------



## BobDavis (Apr 10, 2021)

To drive into EU once we are allowed to the only extra stuff required is a green card which is a white bit of paper supplied foc from your insurance & a GB sticker. An international driving permit is not required.

Although day trips will still be possible duty free allowances are back severely limiting amounts of alcohol & fags you can bring back.

ETAIS which is not required yet will be fuck all about £8 for 3 yrs. Biggest change is the time limit for tourists in EU 90 days in 180. Same as US & Oz etc. To retire in Spain unless living there pre brexit & registered as a resident now will cost a Brit as much a it would to retire to Florida or Oz Gold Coast. A lot. Ie buy house. Prove income & pay health insurance. I think even existing Brit  residents in Spain have had to prove at least £21000pa income each which has fucked up a lot of Brit pensioners there. Also Spanish bureaucracy is difficult to negotiate. There have been loads of Brits living in Spain for years working cash in hand & they are being kicked out.


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## dessiato (Apr 11, 2021)

BobDavis said:


> To drive into EU once we are allowed to the only extra stuff required is a green card which is a white bit of paper supplied foc from your insurance & a GB sticker. An international driving permit is not required.
> 
> Although day trips will still be possible duty free allowances are back severely limiting amounts of alcohol & fags you can bring back.
> 
> ETAIS which is not required yet will be fuck all about £8 for 3 yrs. Biggest change is the time limit for tourists in EU 90 days in 180. Same as US & Oz etc. To retire in Spain unless living there pre brexit & registered as a resident now will cost a Brit as much a it would to retire to Florida or Oz Gold Coast. A lot. Ie buy house. Prove income & pay health insurance.* I think even existing Brit  residents in Spain have had to prove at least £21000pa income each which has fucked up a lot of Brit pensioners there. Also Spanish bureaucracy is difficult to negotiate. There have been loads of Brits living in Spain for years working cash in hand & they are being kicked out.*


I am legally living in Spain with residencia permanente. I got my TIE, the ID card for non-EU citizens, about a month ago. I also changed my driving licence, as was required for anyone living here for longer than 6 months. I have been here since November 2012.

At the moment, assuming you are are legal resident, and were resident before 1st Jan 2021, you do not need to prove income. Whether or not this will remain the case is, of course, another matter. If you are in the health system, and have paid/are paying into it you do not need additional health insurance.

No one, at this time, is being kicked out. That is just the British press scaremongering. Those few who have been refused entry are ones arriving without proper paperwork for entry.

If you are here legally, not much has changed if you have residencia.


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## BobDavis (Apr 11, 2021)

Yes. I imagine plenty of Brits will carry on living under the radar in Spain. Earning money as they have always done like doing cash in hand building work for Brit home owners & similar. Plenty have lived lifestyles flitting between UK & Spain earning money in UK then living in Spain for a bit.

Now I would guess for any living that sort of lifestyle life has got more difficult & if caught overstaying the 90 days may well be barred from returning to Spain ? Time will tell how much various countries enforce the 90 day rule but the days of Brits just casually living out in continental Europe appear to be over. If passports will be stamped in & out then there is no hiding the overstay & there is possibility of fine & being barred from returning.

It is not just the duckers & divers affected. Plenty saw their retirements as living in a motorhome or caravan most of the time down in Spain with trips back to their house in UK once or twice a year. Ok they can also go over to Morocco for 90 days as well but plenty are not that ambitious they just want to tow their caravans down in October to the same site in southern Spain they have been going to for years. Doing a cheap long stay deal with the site & returning to UK in about May. Only the minority though & little sympathy for them generally with their baby boomer good pensions & in future they will have to cut their stays over winter to 3 months.


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## Badgers (Apr 11, 2021)

Today is the twenty-third anniversary of the Good Friday Agreement.


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## ska invita (Apr 11, 2021)

dessiato said:


> No one, at this time, is being kicked out. That is just the British press scaremongering.


I havent read anyone saying people are being rounded up and kicked out? The issue raised is  that people without the necessary credentials will find themselves slowly filtered out as they try and cross borders, access services etc. It will be a gradual process. Same in the UK for EU citizens without status from this summer. 
Only so long you can be under the radar


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## TopCat (Apr 11, 2021)

GB Census results will be out soon. Unionists may well be in a minority.


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## dessiato (Apr 11, 2021)

BobDavis said:


> Yes. I imagine plenty of Brits will carry on living under the radar in Spain. Earning money as they have always done like doing cash in hand building work for Brit home owners & similar. Plenty have lived lifestyles flitting between UK & Spain earning money in UK then living in Spain for a bit.
> 
> Now I would guess for any living that sort of lifestyle life has got more difficult & if caught overstaying the 90 days may well be barred from returning to Spain ? Time will tell how much various countries enforce the 90 day rule but the days of Brits just casually living out in continental Europe appear to be over. If passports will be stamped in & out then there is no hiding the overstay & there is possibility of fine & being barred from returning.
> 
> It is not just the duckers & divers affected. Plenty saw their retirements as living in a motorhome or caravan most of the time down in Spain with trips back to their house in UK once or twice a year. Ok they can also go over to Morocco for 90 days as well but plenty are not that ambitious they just want to tow their caravans down in October to the same site in southern Spain they have been going to for years. Doing a cheap long stay deal with the site & returning to UK in about May. Only the minority though & little sympathy for them generally with their baby boomer good pensions & in future they will have to cut their stays over winter to 3 months.


On entering Spain now your passport is stamped, unless you are residencia permanente. Although some officials are stamping anyway. Some people, to get around this, think going to another Schengen country for one or two days will allow them a longer stay. This is not the case. passports are supposed to be checked and stamped on exit. I don’t know if this is happening yet.

As it stands there is the possibility of a fine, and/or jail, and/or banning from Schengen zone, or banning for, say, five years.

I expect this situation will change as Spain aligns the British more closely with the other third countries.

It is because of this that we made sure all our paperwork to become residencia permanente before January.

I don’t know if other EU states, eg Portugal, are doing it this way. IIRC The39thStep is in Lisbon and will know how they’re being treated.


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## MrSki (Apr 11, 2021)

TopCat said:


> GB Census results will be out soon. Unionists may well be in a minority.


Well if you think March 2022 is soon.


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## TopCat (Apr 11, 2021)

MrSki said:


> Well if you think March 2022 is soon.


Less than a year so yeah. If they are the minority now, even in the partitioned north, is a united ireland not desirable for most?


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## ska invita (Apr 11, 2021)

BobDavis said:


> To retire in Spain unless living there pre brexit & registered as a resident now will cost a Brit as much a it would to retire to Florida or Oz Gold Coast. A lot. Ie buy house. Prove income & pay health insurance. I think even existing Brit  residents in Spain have had to prove at least £21000pa income each which has fucked up a lot of Brit pensioners there. Also Spanish bureaucracy is difficult to negotiate. T


Thats the first time im reading the details of what it takes to move. Seems its all over for future Brits retiring in Spain (or out of the UK in general) basically, but for a few rich people. Same as coming to the UK of course - in fact the provable income is higher for the UK IIRC.


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## Yossarian (Apr 11, 2021)

dessiato said:


> On entering Spain now your passport is stamped, unless you are residencia permanente. Although some officials are stamping anyway. Some people, to get around this, think going to another Schengen country for one or two days will allow them a longer stay. This is not the case. passports are supposed to be checked and stamped on exit. I don’t know if this is happening yet.
> 
> As it stands there is the possibility of a fine, and/or jail, and/or banning from Schengen zone, or banning for, say, five years.
> 
> ...



I know several people who moved to Spain late last year - mostly British Hong Kong residents who decided to retire to Spain a little early because of both Brexit and the political situation in HK.

What's the general feeling among expats in Spain - are they saddened that their communities might wither, or glad that the drawbridge is being pulled up? From what I've seen of expat communities elsewhere, my guess would be the latter.


----------



## MrSki (Apr 11, 2021)




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## dessiato (Apr 11, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> I know several people who moved to Spain late last year - mostly British Hong Kong residents who decided to retire to Spain a little early because of both Brexit and the political situation in HK.
> 
> What's the general feeling among expats in Spain - are they saddened that their communities might wither, or glad that the drawbridge is being pulled up? From what I've seen of expat communities elsewhere, my guess would be the latter.


Unfortunately this is the case in some areas. We chose, very deliberately, to avoid those areas so cannot accurately comment. From reading various Brit immigrants (we are not ex-pats, we're immigrants) Facebook pages there's a lot who still don't know the new rules apply to them. There's many saying they will stay because Spain couldn't cope without them. They're beginning to wake up, but they blame the EU.


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## Ax^ (Apr 11, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Less than a year so yeah. If they are the minority now, even in the partitioned north, is a united ireland not desirable for most?



was that th plan for the beginning with brexit breaking up the Union


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## existentialist (Apr 11, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> was that th plan for the beginning with brexit breaking up the Union


Of course it was. It's going to be like that story of the bloke who shoots holes in his barn, and then chalks neat circles around all the bullet holes afterwards.


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## The39thStep (Apr 11, 2021)

Portugal has bent over backward re the UK and Brexit requirements. Anyone here before the deadline still has grace, due to the covid restrictions to apply for residency and the requirement for residents to exchange driving licenses has been extended to Dec 31st. Haven't a clue about the stamping of passports as there have been no direct flights since the confinement was imposed in January.Did read on the British Embassy Facebook that it's illegal to stamp passports for those who have residency. The minimum income for residency ( there are different types ) is around the level of the minimum wages so about £8k I guess.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Apr 11, 2021)

Just saw a 21 plate car with an EU GB bit on the number plate, that's pretty tragic.


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## Yossarian (Apr 11, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Just saw a 21 plate car with an EU GB bit on the number plate, that's pretty tragic.



Maybe not as tragic as this driver in Hong Kong.


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## NoXion (Apr 11, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Just saw a 21 plate car with an EU GB bit on the number plate, that's pretty tragic.



The fawning over the EU itself is something I don't think I will ever fully understand. I can understand feeling proud of one's country of birth, or of one's adoptive country, but the fucking EU?! Loyalty to a trading bloc has got to be one of the saddest things going.


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## Pickman's model (Apr 11, 2021)

NoXion said:


> The fawning over the EU itself is something I don't think I will ever fully understand. I can understand feeling proud of one's country of birth, or of one's adoptive country, but the fucking EU?! Loyalty to a trading bloc has got to be one of the saddest things going.


They've a better anthem than the uk. And they're not just a trading bloc


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## Yossarian (Apr 11, 2021)

NoXion said:


> The fawning over the EU itself is something I don't think I will ever fully understand. I can understand feeling proud of one's country of birth, or of one's adoptive country, but the fucking EU?! Loyalty to a trading bloc has got to be one of the saddest things going.



It might just be a succesful troll, tbf.


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## NoXion (Apr 11, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> They've a better anthem than the uk



The UK can get a better one at some point. On the other hand, the EU will never have anything that truly belongs to it in cultural terms. It's ontological intertia free-rides on the existence of all the real countries that make it up.


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## The39thStep (Apr 11, 2021)

NoXion said:


> The fawning over the EU itself is something I don't think I will ever fully understand. I can understand feeling proud of one's country of birth, or of one's adoptive country, but the fucking EU?! Loyalty to a trading bloc has got to be one of the saddest things going.


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## Pickman's model (Apr 11, 2021)

NoXion said:


> The UK can get a better one at some point. On the other hand, the EU will never have anything that truly belongs to it in cultural terms. It's ontological intertia free-rides on the existence of all the real countries that make it up.


I think that what attracts isn't the eu itself but the sense of and possibilities for community that the EU made / makes possible. More notions perhaps than anything concrete. I think any look at the EU as it's constructed is like looking at the picture of dorian grey but from a remove it can appear very appealing. The European ideal is a very seductive idea. There is I think a great deal to be said for a European federation in principle: but the way the EU is currently constituted has severe limitations and shortcomings which we've talked at length here, thinking of the frontiers for example. The growth of the EU has led to institutions which are by no means fit for purpose, staffed by mediocrities out of their depth. If you wanted a European community with which people here could identify you wouldn't start from here!


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## existentialist (Apr 11, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Just saw a 21 plate car with an EU GB bit on the number plate, that's pretty tragic.


When I had to go out to France last year, I noticed that the EU flag GB stickers were reduced to clear. So I bought one and stuck it on the car. I hope, in a way, that it really annoys the kind of person who likes to be annoyed by such things.

The douane officer wasn't annoyed. "Mais pas après Brexit, monsieur", he grinned, pointing at it.


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## NoXion (Apr 11, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> I think that what attracts isn't the eu itself but the sense of and possibilities for community that the EU made / makes possible. More notions perhaps than anything concrete. I think any look at the EU as it's constructed is like looking at the picture of dorian grey but from a remove it can appear very appealing. The European ideal is a very seductive idea. There is I think a great deal to be said for a European federation in principle: but the way the EU is currently constituted has severe limitations and shortcomings which we've talked at length here, thinking of the frontiers for example. The growth of the EU has led to institutions which are by no means fit for purpose, staffed by mediocrities out of their depth. If you wanted a European community with which people here could identify you wouldn't start from here!



Yeah, it's not ideas of European federalism or pan-European identity that puzzle me, it's the latching on to the EU as if that was some kind of meaningful proxy of that. Europe meant something before the EU, and Europe will still mean something even when the EU has become long forgotten.


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## BobDavis (Apr 11, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Just saw a 21 plate car with an EU GB bit on the number plate, that's pretty tragic.


Bit unclear about the law. I‘ve seen a couple of 21 euro plates on Dacia Dusters. The local Renault/Dacia franchise has always fitted euro plates on all cars new & used as a matter of course & appears to be still doing so. Some websites will tell you that no euro plates can be fitted to any car after start of this year. Existing cars with euro plates are ok but must have GB sticker on outre manche. The actual .gov website does not say euro plates cannot still be fitted but does not mention them on the section on numberplate identifiers. The .gov website does say the only format that does not require GB sticker abroad is plate with union flag & GB identifier on left hand end. Except in Spain where you still need a GB sticker !

I’m keeping the euro plates on my 4 yr old car & I got a magnetic GB sticker to put on when I do go over again. In practise I can’t see French cops giving a fuck. I have been waved past vehicle checks in towns presumably because cops can’t be arsed with non French speakers.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Apr 11, 2021)

I understand that Euro plates are no longer valid, a Union Flag where the EU flag currently is will be valid “in most EU countries”, it doesn’t say which countries it is not valid in. Safest just to bung a regular GB sticker on the back of the car and be done with it.


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## Smokeandsteam (Apr 11, 2021)

NoXion said:


> Yeah, it's not ideas of European federalism or pan-European identity that puzzle me, it's the latching on to the EU as if that was some kind of meaningful proxy of that. Europe meant something before the EU, and Europe will still mean something even when the EU has become long forgotten.




It’s utterly incomprehensible to me how anyone who professes to be ‘on the left’ or even a liberal could attach so much emotional investment and political capital in a neo-liberal project that is essentially managed on behalf of nation states by the IMF, ECB and unelected EU commissioners. Anderson’s recent essays on the EU and Varoufakis’ superb account of how the troika operates in practise should be essential reading.

As Pickman’s Model had commented Europe as an idea, as a possibility, as a lived experience is seductive and I can totally see why some younger people in particular confused Europe with the EU. I’m European and I’ll always like Europe.

But for continuity remain you have to conclude that the EU has become a lodestar: both a rallying cry for a particular form of Blairite, middle class identity politics and an - imagined - land where they could escape from provincial and working class England. In essence, a body erroneously invested with values and cultures that imbue its fanatical supporters with a feeling of superiority over the unwashed.

Those feelings are littered throughout FBPE and on the debates here. Their strawman response when challenged: that Tory Britain is worse - is both flawed in the sense that changing that is entirely possible and lies within our own collective hands, but is also loaded with other value judgments about what precisely they mean by that which you don’t need to scratch far below the surface to uncover.


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## brogdale (Apr 11, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> It’s utterly incomprehensible to me how anyone who professes to be ‘on the left’ or even a liberal could attach so much emotional investment and political capital in a neo-liberal project that is essentially managed on behalf of nation states by the IMF, ECB and unelected EU commissioners. Anderson’s recent essays on the EU and Varoufakis’ superb account of how the troika operates in practise should be essential reading.
> 
> As Pickman’s Model had commented Europe as an idea, as a possibility, as a lived experience is seductive and I can totally see why some younger people in particular confused Europe with the EU. I’m European and I’ll always like Europe.
> 
> ...


A well argued post.


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## MrSki (Apr 11, 2021)




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## pseudonarcissus (Apr 11, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> As Pickman’s Model had commented Europe as an idea, as a possibility, as a lived experience is seductive and I can totally see why some younger people in particular confused Europe with the EU. I’m European and I’ll always like Europe.
> 
> But for continuity remain you have to conclude that the EU has become a lodestar: both a rallying cry for a particular form of Blairite, middle class identity politics and an - imagined - land where they could escape from provincial and working class England. In essence, a body erroneously invested with values and cultures that imbue its fanatical supporters with a feeling of superiority over the unwashed.


I think a lot starts before Blair; the miserable state of the UK in the 70s, then under Thatcher. The Holiday Programme on a Sunday evening with Frank Bough or Russel Harty going on motoring tours across Europe, with blue skies and beautiful medieval cities, was very exotic for those of us that had only ever been on UK camping holidays. I’m not sure the point when you become middle class, perhaps when your parents chose that over the package tour to Spain.
around the same time was Auf Wiedersehen, Pet. When I was an apprentice a lot of the skilled trades had worked in Germany. British manufacturing will never recover from Thatcherism. The skilled trade deficit sucked in the Poles and Lithuanians, who were a motivation for the leave vote.
l’ve lived and worked in the Netherlands and italy. I’m not sure I could have carried on my job being based in London as the withdrawal agreement, as written and if implemented, is very restrictive to conferences and service engineers on long term service contracts. No more immediate response when ships crash. 

The real test will be the relative trajectories of the EU and UK economies as COVID works itself out. In the early 80s France was all elderly 2CVs And was poor. it’s much more prosperous now and the UK might have a shock when the jobs start moving to mainland Europe. Trying to save steel works now seems like it’s all in vane. A booming Europe and England rerunning Thatcherite misery will tip the balance. The 7 counties were only kept as part of the union as they were industrialized and rich. Ireland will unify when it’s clear that the north has an economic imperative to do so. It seems to be on the way. Scotland seems to see it’s future in Europe (it’s not clear Europe would have them).  

I’m planning my retirement in Portugal. I’m lucky I’ve managed to save sufficient that I won’t be relying on the state pension.


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## pseudonarcissus (Apr 12, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Their strawman response when challenged: that Tory Britain is worse - is both flawed in the sense that changing that is entirely possible and lies within our own collective hands, but is also loaded with other value judgments about what precisely they mean by that which you don’t need to scratch far below the surface to uncover.


I am intrigued by the idea that the UK might evolve into something better. A socialist utopia. England Willie Tory for a generation or two, looking at the electoral reality. Unfortunately.


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## yield (Apr 12, 2021)

They could've taken Tony Benn's advice and created a sovereign wealth fund from North Sea oil and gas. Like Norway.

Nixon's abandonment of the Bretton Woods system which lead to the oil price shocks hit everyone hard.


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## BobDavis (Apr 12, 2021)

pseudonarcissus said:


> I think a lot starts before Blair; the miserable state of the UK in the 70s, then under Thatcher. The Holiday Programme on a Sunday evening with Frank Bough or Russel Harty going on motoring tours across Europe, with blue skies and beautiful medieval cities, was very exotic for those of us that had only ever been on UK camping holidays. I’m not sure the point when you become middle class, perhaps when your parents chose that over the package tour to Spain.
> around the same time was Auf Wiedersehen, Pet. When I was an apprentice a lot of the skilled trades had worked in Germany. British manufacturing will never recover from Thatcherism. The skilled trade deficit sucked in the Poles and Lithuanians, who were a motivation for the leave vote.
> l’ve lived and worked in the Netherlands and italy. I’m not sure I could have carried on my job being based in London as the withdrawal agreement, as written and if implemented, is very restrictive to conferences and service engineers on long term service contracts. No more immediate response when ships crash.
> 
> ...


Yes. Got it in one. It always seems more fun in other European countries most of us visit on holiday. I go camping mostly on the south west France coast & I’ve been visiting for decades so hardly exotic & unusual for me but the buzz in the French seaside towns with a mix of European nationalities has always made them seem so much more fun than UK equivalents. Having said that I am British. I live here & so do my kids & grandkids so I am always going to be just a traveller on the face of the European mainland not a resident.


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## Pickman's model (Apr 12, 2021)

BobDavis said:


> Yes. Got it in one. It always seems more fun in other European countries most of us visit on holiday. I go camping mostly on the south west France coast & I’ve been visiting for decades so hardly exotic & unusual for me but the buzz in the French seaside towns with a mix of European nationalities has always made them seem so much more fun than UK equivalents. Having said that I am British. I live here & so do my kids & grandkids so I am always going to be just a traveller on the face of the European mainland not a resident.


You're not going to go to Ireland then


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## BobDavis (Apr 12, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> You're not going to go to Ireland then


Probably not again. I used to go in my truck on odd occasions. Last time in the late 90s I recall. Never to the north though. Always I would ship Holyhead Dublin. Yes I did enjoy the difference. I never used to bother to change up Irish punts though. The £ was worth slightly more so they were always happy to take £s. No time to hang around though. Off the boat straight to destinations & back to dock.


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## MrSki (Apr 12, 2021)

One in four small UK exporters end sales to the EU due to costs. 




__





						Bloomberg - Are you a robot?
					





					www.bloomberg.com


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## redsquirrel (Apr 13, 2021)

pseudonarcissus said:


> I think a lot starts before Blair; the miserable state of the UK in the 70s, then under Thatcher.


In the 70s when workers were taking a higher % of GDP as wages than any time? When the Gini coefficient was at its lowest? 


pseudonarcissus said:


> In the early 80s France was all elderly 2CVs And was poor. it’s much more prosperous now


This is the type of nonsense that was claimed by the New Left in the 90s/00s - _we're all getting richer_ - income inequality has increased in France since the 80s. Do not mistake the success of capital, "the economy", in stealing more with "prosperity".


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## TopCat (Apr 13, 2021)

MrSki said:


> One in four small UK exporters end sales to the EU due to costs.
> 
> 
> 
> ...











						UK exports to EU rebound partially after January's slump
					

Despite the improvement, exports still remain below 2020 levels, the UK statistics body says.



					www.bbc.co.uk


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## MrSki (Apr 13, 2021)

TopCat said:


> UK exports to EU rebound partially after January's slump
> 
> 
> Despite the improvement, exports still remain below 2020 levels, the UK statistics body says.
> ...


Yeah I just heard that on the radio. Good news for once.


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## TopCat (Apr 13, 2021)

MrSki said:


> Yeah I just heard that on the radio. Good news for once.


Interesting that imports from the EU are dramatically down. Given the light touch import paperwork for EU imports this is puzzling.


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## The39thStep (Apr 13, 2021)

MrSki said:


> One in four small UK exporters end sales to the EU due to costs.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



based on  





> FSB surveyed 1,483 businesses between 1 and 15 March 2021 of which *207 were importers and/or exporters. *


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## pseudonarcissus (Apr 13, 2021)

redsquirrel said:


> In the 70s when workers were taking a higher % of GDP as wages than any time? When the Gini coefficient was at its lowest?
> This is the type of nonsense that was claimed by the New Left in the 90s/00s - _we're all getting richer_ - income inequality has increased in France since the 80s. Do not mistake the success of capital, "the economy", in stealing more with "prosperity".


And how is Tory Brexit going to fix this, exactly?


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## gosub (Apr 13, 2021)

pseudonarcissus said:


> And how is Tory Brexit going to fix this, exactly?


I think the tory plan for redressing the balance is for all the disadvantaged to die


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## BobDavis (Apr 13, 2021)

Higher GDP is only good if the government spends it on improvements to social services not tax cuts for the wealthy. Foreign investment is good if it builds a factory to provide local jobs but not so good if it buys existing UK factories & then closes them & moves production overseas. I think present government is only interested in investment to keep itself in power not investment for the common good.


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## redsquirrel (Apr 13, 2021)

pseudonarcissus said:


> And how is Tory Brexit going to fix this, exactly?


This response illustrates the accuracy of Smokeandsteam's post.
I'm not making any claim about the advantages/disadvantages of the UK leaving the EU, I'm criticising the underlying 'economic' thinking that says that things were bad for workers in the UK in the 70s, that workers in France are better off now than they were 3 decades ago.
You talk about Thatcherism happening in the UK as opposed to what is happening in the EU, but of course Thatcher was in favour of the EU, she understood it as a tool to attack labour.

EDIT: The anti-Thatcherism of France


> Mr Macron launched the second round of his ambitious reforms to France’s labour market this week, by gathering business leaders and trade unionists for talks about overhauling unemployment benefits.
> 
> It follows his summer changes to French labour law, and marks the next stage of what he calls the “transformation” of the French social model. Among the measures proposed are a paring down of France’s generous unemployment benefits, while boosting state-funded training to help pull the jobless back into the workplace. The reforms will make hiring and firing easier.


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## Smokeandsteam (Apr 13, 2021)

redsquirrel said:


> This response illustrates the accuracy of Smokeandsteam's post.
> I'm not making any claim about the advantages/disadvantages of the UK leaving the EU, I'm criticising the underlying 'economic' thinking that says that things were bad for workers in the UK in the 70s, that workers in France are better off now than they were 3 decades ago.
> You talk about Thatcherism happening in the UK as opposed to what is happening in the EU, but of course Thatcher was in favour of the EU, she understood it as a tool to attack labour.



It's also worth remembering also that in France that the political consequences of the 'rising prosperity' of the country will produce a second election run off between the wildly unpopular and discredited neo-liberal Europhile Macron and a bunch of fascists.  The latter enjoying continuing levels of support in the deindustrialised north of France (previously strongholds for the CP and socialists) and among young people. The former creating the 'yellow vests', sparking periodic riots in the banlieu's and mass action among the organised working class such is the extent of the 'rising prosperity'....


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## Badgers (Apr 13, 2021)

Government urged to reveal lorry park report
					

Local politicians are putting pressure on the government to release a report into the environmental impact of a 66-acre lorry park.



					www.kentonline.co.uk


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## sleaterkinney (Apr 13, 2021)

It's not love for a neoliberal superstate in so much as it's looking at the people behind brexit - the rees moggs, raabs, johnsons and farages and knowing instinctively that I disagree with their politics and their vision. I'm not sure why any liberal or left person wouldn't.


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## gosub (Apr 13, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Government urged to reveal lorry park report
> 
> 
> Local politicians are putting pressure on the government to release a report into the environmental impact of a 66-acre lorry park.
> ...



I can report that locally our supermarket environment is well stocked. But I don't live in Kent so they probably don't care


----------



## pseudonarcissus (Apr 13, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> It's also worth remembering also that in France that the political consequences of the 'rising prosperity' of the country will produce a second election run off between the wildly unpopular and discredited neo-liberal Europhile Macron and a bunch of fascists.  The latter enjoying continuing levels of support in the deindustrialised north of France (*previously strongholds for the CP and socialists*) and among young people. The former creating the 'yellow vests', sparking periodic riots in the banlieu's and mass action among the organised working class such is the extent of the 'rising prosperity'....


Unfortunately, I think we have to conclude that the CP and socialist parties are failing everywhere, inside or outside the EU.  My fear is that it will be worse outside the EU.
As with a lot of the political posts on Urban, the conclusion seems to be that the fault is with the WC for not knowing what's good for 'em. They could have voted for nice middle class Mr. Corbyn; he know exactly what was good for the WC.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Apr 13, 2021)

pseudonarcissus said:


> Unfortunately, I think we have to conclude that the CP and socialist parties are failing everywhere, inside or outside the EU.  My fear is that it will be worse outside the EU.
> As with a lot of the political posts on Urban, the conclusion seems to be that the fault is with the WC for not knowing what's good for 'em. They could have voted for nice middle class Mr. Corbyn; he know exactly what was good for the WC.



I've genuinely got no idea how you've started by replying to my post about the dominant cultural, political and class origins of continuity remain and arrived at that conclusion....


----------



## A380 (Apr 13, 2021)

sleaterkinney said:


> It's not love for a neoliberal superstate in so much as it's looking at the people behind brexit - the rees moggs, raabs, johnsons and farages and knowing instinctively that I disagree with their politics and their vision. I'm not sure why any liberal or left person wouldn't.


Because we aren’t as clever as the vanguard Lexiteers.


----------



## TopCat (Apr 13, 2021)

A380 said:


> Because we aren’t as clever as the vanguard Lexiteers.


Replace the names with Cameron, May, Brown, Blair, Barnier, Van de Leys. Fuck that bunch.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Apr 14, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Replace the names with Cameron, May, Brown, Blair, Barnier, Van de Leys. Fuck that bunch.



It's a choice of who you'd rather be fucked by and I'd rather be fucked by the supra state hobbled by its own incompetence and paperwork than stuck on an island living on omlete du farage and cleaning for the Queen.

We left so it's increasingly not going to matter, but I'd rather have had 4 years of status quo than the shit show comedy that was 2016 onwards and I'm certainly not going to be grateful we left or think it was a good idea.

Maybe in 50 years as a result of this we'll get a socialist utopia that justifies it but the immediate fallout isn't looking like fun times.


----------



## MrSki (Apr 14, 2021)

So it gets better coverage across the pond.


----------



## not a trot (Apr 14, 2021)

Jimmy Dyson was on the BBC this morning celebrating his new found freedoms. Cunt can shove his overpriced products right up his arse.


----------



## existentialist (Apr 14, 2021)

not a trot said:


> Jimmy Dyson was on the BBC this morning celebrating his new found freedoms. Cunt can shove his overpriced products right up his arse.


Ideally, while powered on.


----------



## BobDavis (Apr 14, 2021)

MrSki said:


> So it gets better coverage across the pond.



I don’t think that is quite correct. There is often reports about this on R4 news & Guardian website. Anybody interested in this can get plenty of UK based news about it. The right wing newspapers may not report about it much & when they do it puts it in the context of EU punishment but who buys newspapers apart from tory/brexit voting old people with time & inclination to read them ? It is not really headline news anymore which Is why it does not make the headlines.

Of course all news should be reported but what Is the point of complaining as if this will suddenly make leavers see the light & want to rejoin ? It will not. If you are not in a customs union then imports & exports require customs clearance. Customs paperwork has to be accurate & correct or goods are delayed until mistakes are corrected. It has always been thus. Welcome to the new reality. It is not going to change anytime soon.

It is already resulting in a large expansion of the customs clearance sector with mostly well paid jobs being created. Even the Kent lorry park being moaned about by leave voting NIMBYs has created plenty of new local jobs.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 14, 2021)

BobDavis said:


> I don’t think that is quite correct. There is often reports about this on R4 news & Guardian website. Anybody interested in this can get plenty of UK based news about it. The right wing newspapers may not report about it much & when they do it puts it in the context of EU punishment but who buys newspapers apart from tory/brexit voting old people with time & inclination to read them ? It is not really headline news anymore which Is why it does not make the headlines.
> 
> Of course all news should be reported but what Is the point of complaining as if this will suddenly make leavers see the light & want to rejoin ? It will not. If you are not in a customs union then imports & exports require customs clearance. Customs paperwork has to be accurate & correct or goods are delayed until mistakes are corrected. It has always been thus. Welcome to the new reality. It is not going to change anytime soon.
> 
> It is already resulting in a large expansion of the customs clearance sector with mostly well paid jobs being created. Even the Kent lorry park being moaned about by leave voting NIMBYs has created plenty of new local jobs.


People with cats


----------



## BobDavis (Apr 14, 2021)

Would it have been politically different if remain had won ? Cameron & Osborne would have stayed in power & there would have been a GE in 2020. Would a left wing socialist Labour been any more likely to have won that election ? I think Cameron had stated he did not want to stay as PM for more than the term of his last government & Osborne would have liked to have been PM but who knows ? Johnson could well have become PM anyway.

One could argue that we could have had a “softer“ brexit & remained in the single market/customs union but that would have not worked because we would have had do the EU’s bidding with no seat at the table. Imagine the rows that would have caused ? The difficulty we have now with EU trade is because what we have done makes no logical sense. Leaving the EU makes no logical sense so one can excuse the EU having a wtf ? moment. What we are doing is trying to find ways of making trade easier after deliberately making it more difficult. 

Fact remains though that the only way forward is to improve customs procedures & as both sides become more familiar with it then it will. Obviously trade will cost more because customs procedures cost money. Both sides will have to become used to what we have now.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 14, 2021)

BobDavis said:


> Would it have been politically different if remain had won ? Cameron & Osborne would have stayed in power & there would have been a GE in 2020. Would a left wing socialist Labour been any more likely to have won that election ? I think Cameron had stated he did not want to stay as PM for more than the term of his last government & Osborne would have liked to have been PM but who knows ? Johnson could well have become PM anyway.
> 
> One could argue that we could have had a “softer“ brexit & remained in the single market/customs union but that would have not worked because we would have had do the EU’s bidding with no seat at the table. Imagine the rows that would have caused ? The difficulty we have now with EU trade is because what we have done makes no logical sense. Leaving the EU makes no logical sense so one can excuse the EU having a wtf ? moment. What we are doing is trying to find ways of making trade easier after deliberately making it more difficult.
> 
> Fact remains though that the only way forward is to improve customs procedures & as both sides become more familiar with it then it will. Obviously trade will cost more because customs procedures cost money. Both sides will have to become used to what we have now.


The only way forward is to send them Johnson's head on a salver and beg for readmission. Or to soldier on with the shitty deal Johnson got.


----------



## BobDavis (Apr 14, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> The only way forward is to send them Johnson's head on a salver and beg for readmission. Or to soldier on with the shitty deal Johnson got.


That is one for the manifestos of opposition parties at future general elections. Do you think it will be a vote winner ?


----------



## stdP (Apr 14, 2021)

BobDavis said:


> That is one for the manifestos of opposition parties at future general elections. Do you think it will be a vote winner ?



The readmission part I can see a lot of the electorate having a problem with, but I suspect the platter-based portion of this approach to communications might gain significant cross-party support in both the UK and the EU in a year or two.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 14, 2021)

BobDavis said:


> That is one for the manifestos of opposition parties at future general elections. Do you think it will be a vote winner ?


I think any party promising to sever Johnson's head would get a surprising number of votes


----------



## BobDavis (Apr 14, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> I think any party promising to sever Johnson's head would get a surprising number of votes


I know plenty who would have liked to sever Johnson’s head before last GE but they still voted tory to get brexit done because they voted leave. So maybe next time they will not vote tory ?


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 14, 2021)

BobDavis said:


> I know plenty who would have liked to sever Johnson’s head before last GE but they still voted tory to get brexit done because they voted leave. So maybe next time they will not vote tory ?


And brexit still won't be done


----------



## stdP (Apr 14, 2021)

Brexit won't be done until we're all billionaires living in a socialist paradise, ruling over India, Africa and the Americas free from foreigners.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Apr 14, 2021)

stdP said:


> Brexit won't be done until we're all billionaires living in a socialist paradise, ruling over India, Africa and the Americas free from foreigners.



That’s why I voted leave, will be here by June, no sweat.


----------



## TopCat (Apr 15, 2021)

stdP said:


> Brexit won't be done until we're all billionaires living in a socialist paradise, ruling over India, Africa and the Americas free from foreigners.


Fucking hell.


----------



## existentialist (Apr 15, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Fucking hell.


You say that like you're not looking forward to it!


----------



## bimble (Apr 15, 2021)

cheers. 
serves me right, what could be more bourgeoise than wanting to grow pointless flowers.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 15, 2021)

bimble said:


> cheers. View attachment 263419
> serves me right, what could be more bourgeoise than wanting to grow pointless flowers.


Owning a factory


----------



## Raheem (Apr 15, 2021)

bimble said:


> cheers. View attachment 263419
> serves me right, what could be more bourgeoise than wanting to grow pointless flowers.


Wanting to grow them from foreign seeds. You could at least pick flowers that are going to understand our culture, like Australian ones.


----------



## gosub (Apr 21, 2021)

Juventus chief blames Brexit for Super League collapse
					

Andrea Agnelli says English clubs joining new league would have been seen as an ‘attack’ on UK politics.




					www.politico.eu


----------



## TopCat (Apr 21, 2021)

gosub said:


> Juventus chief blames Brexit for Super League collapse
> 
> 
> Andrea Agnelli says English clubs joining new league would have been seen as an ‘attack’ on UK politics.
> ...


Yeah it was brexit not rampant greed eh?


----------



## Badgers (Apr 21, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Yeah it was brexit not rampant greed eh?


Combination of the two tbf


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Apr 21, 2021)

gosub said:


> Juventus chief blames Brexit for Super League collapse
> 
> 
> Andrea Agnelli says English clubs joining new league would have been seen as an ‘attack’ on UK politics.
> ...




Thank you to the Brexiteers.


----------



## gosub (Apr 21, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Thank you to the Brexiteers.


Sheffield United fans   -sorry


----------



## eatmorecheese (Apr 21, 2021)

Christ. A slow hand-clap for Truss and her team.









						‘Bizarre’ UK comments about Australia’s trade minister a ‘serious setback’ to talks
					

Allies of UK trade secretary Liz Truss accused of launching an ‘unprovoked attack’ on Dan Tehan on the eve of their meeting




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Apr 22, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> I understand that Euro plates are no longer valid, a Union Flag where the EU flag currently is will be valid “in most EU countries”, it doesn’t say which countries it is not valid in. Safest just to bung a regular GB sticker on the back of the car and be done with it.




Update, the EU numberplate or Union Flag one with GB underneath is valid in all EU countries except Cyprus, Malta & Spain. Obviously Spain being most often visited by car...


----------



## MrSki (Apr 26, 2021)

So February's food & drink exports to EU down 40% on 2020 with small firms hit hardest.



> Inconsistent and increasingly burdensome post-Brexit bureaucracy is blighting food and drink sales to the EU, the sector warned as it published analysis showing exports to the bloc were down 40 per cent in February compared with a year earlier. The UK Food and Drink Federation said on Monday that the latest UK government data painted a stark picture of the challenges facing companies, and especially smaller businesses, as they grapple with new veterinary and customs checks introduced on January 1. The federation, which represents more than 800 companies, said the statistics showed that food and drink exports to the EU in February were worth £578.7m, down from £1bn in February 2020.



Slightly offset by a 8.7% increase too non-EU countries worth £55.6 million.





__





						Subscribe to read | Financial Times
					

News, analysis and comment from the Financial Times, the worldʼs leading global business publication




					www.ft.com


----------



## The39thStep (Apr 26, 2021)

Its inconsistent and increasingly burdensome to post a link thats beyond a paywall tbh


----------



## ska invita (Apr 26, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Its inconsistent and increasingly burdensome to post a link thats beyond a paywall tbh


it easy to get around paywalls, many of us can read it
also means we get newspaper links that arent the guardian for a change



 Inconsistent and increasingly burdensome post-Brexit bureaucracy is blighting food and drink sales to the EU, the sector warned as it published analysis showing exports to the bloc were down 40 per cent in February compared with a year earlier. The UK Food and Drink Federation said on Monday that the latest UK government data painted a stark picture of the challenges facing companies, and especially smaller businesses, as they grapple with new veterinary and customs checks introduced on January 1.

 The federation, which represents more than 800 companies, said the statistics showed that food and drink exports to the EU in February were worth £578.7m, down from £1bn in February 2020. 

This was only marginally offset by an 8.7 per cent increase, worth £55.6m, in sales to non-EU countries in February compared with the same period last year. Sales of milk and cream to the EU were down 96.4 per cent compared with February 2020, and exports of chicken and beef were both down more than 75 per cent.

 Europe Express newsletter Sign up here to receive Europe Express, your essential guide to what happens in Europe, sent straight to your inbox every weekday. 

While the pandemic had been a factor in slowing trade, the federation said the clear sense from business was that Brexit was a driving force. Dominic Goudie, its head of international trade, said: “UK businesses continue to struggle with inconsistent and incorrect demands at EU borders.” 

Small businesses “have been hardest hit” he said, due in part to the collapse of the business model of lorries carrying goods from different suppliers, something rendered less practical post-Brexit because it multiplies the paperwork needed. 

The organisation is calling for urgent meetings of the joint UK-EU committees overseeing the post-Brexit trade deal. The agreement, which ensures tariff-free, quote-free trade for British and EU-made goods, has been in provisional application since January 1 and is set to be ratified by the European Parliament on Tuesday. 

Confusion over paperwork can lead to goods being held up for hours or days © Jeff J Mitchell/Getty The figures are nonetheless an improvement compared with January when trading slackened in part because companies had sought to shift inventory before Britain’s post-Brexit transition period expired at the end of 2020.

 UK food and drink exports to the continent fell 75.5 per cent that month, compared with January 2020. Specific problems highlighted by the food and drink sector include customs and veterinary officials in different EU countries interpreting the bloc’s rules in different ways. “The challenge is that one border official to the next might have different demands: what is acceptable in France is not acceptable in Belgium in the way you complete paperwork,” Goudie said. 

Another problem identified by the federation is that exporters are sometimes being incorrectly required to provide special codes, known as Meursing codes, that are normally used by officials on the EU side to work out what import tariff should apply to baked goods and confectionery. Sorting out the codes can cost companies up to £500 per product, Goudie said. 

Recommended Brexit Briefing Businesses still feeling the pain of EU customs checks Premium A further complicating factor is that on April 21 the EU stiffened its rules for when export health certificates or other attestations are required for processed foods such as lasagne and pork pies. 

Confusion over paperwork can lead to goods being held up for hours or days. Products coming into the UK from the EU face fewer barriers as Britain is only gradually rolling out its new system of checks on goods over the course of this year. Despite the persistent problems, there are signs that EU-UK trade is picking up. 

Data gathered by IRN Research on the number of trailers, trucks and lorries travelling between the UK and the EU by ferry shows that traffic across the short routes, including via the Channel Tunnel, was down merely 2 per cent in March 2021 compared with March 2020. By comparison, traffic was down 14.9 per cent in February, compared with the same period the previous year, according to the IRN Research data, which was sourced from ferry operators.


----------



## The39thStep (Apr 26, 2021)

ska invita said:


> it easy to get around paywalls, many of us can read it
> also means we get newspaper links that arent the guardian for a change
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks perhaps you could post up the details of getting round the FT paywall so that the many can be more?


----------



## MrSki (Apr 26, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Its inconsistent and increasingly burdensome to post a link thats beyond a paywall tbh


Sorry. You can get a months free subscription if there is an article you want to read.


----------



## The39thStep (Apr 26, 2021)

MrSki said:


> Sorry. You can get a months free subscription if there is an article you want to read.


Ska's sorting it out


----------



## MrSki (Apr 26, 2021)

Dairy farmers hit worst with sales of milk & cream down 96%


----------



## MrSki (Apr 26, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Ska's sorting it out


Yeah he is a bit more on the ball than me.


----------



## ska invita (Apr 26, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Thanks perhaps you could post up the details of getting round the FT paywall so that the many can be more?


 
this extension works on firefox and chrome - bypasses 99% of firewalls








						GitHub - iamadamdev/bypass-paywalls-chrome: Bypass Paywalls web browser extension for Chrome and Firefox.
					

Bypass Paywalls web browser extension for Chrome and Firefox. - GitHub - iamadamdev/bypass-paywalls-chrome: Bypass Paywalls web browser extension for Chrome and Firefox.




					github.com
				




with FT content you can just click on the link then copy and past the title of the article and "search in google" - click on the google link and it magically byapsses the firewall for that article.
So in the case of that link above if you click on it you see the headline " Brexit bureaucracy is hitting UK food and drink sales to EU, sector warns"

Google  "Brexit bureaucracy is hitting UK food and drink sales to EU, sector warns" and click on the first link and you can read it


----------



## The39thStep (Apr 26, 2021)

ska invita said:


> this extension works on firefox and chrome - bypasses 99% of firewalls
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Cheers Ska


----------



## ska invita (Apr 26, 2021)

some more February numbers in this 








						Sales of milk and cream to EU plunge 96% because of Brexit
					

Food and Drink Federation pleads with Boris Johnson to ‘urgently’ restarts talks to resolve the crisis




					www.independent.co.uk


----------



## gosub (Apr 26, 2021)

ska invita said:


> some more February numbers in this
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This won't be a blip unless they do something about vet certs.  HOWEVER being a net dairy exporter is a very recent thing, post Brexit infact (though records only go back to 97).  And roughly 6% of milk is exported....Shutting down the coffee machines for Covid impacts 5-10% of production  so it ain't just Brexit thats hurting that sector. 

Not sure where milk and cream fit into exports (isn't in top 30 thats for sure. United Kingdom’s Top 10 Exports


----------



## andysays (Apr 28, 2021)

Does this count?

Arlene Foster: Leadership of DUP hangs in the balance


----------



## dessiato (Apr 28, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Update, the EU numberplate or Union Flag one with GB underneath is valid in all EU countries except Cyprus, Malta & Spain. Obviously Spain being most often visited by car...


There’s a lot of U.K. registered vehicles on the Costa. People bring them here and don’t matriculate them, as is required by law if you are a resident. I know of people who have used their cars, illegally, for several years.

Arriving here through both Santander and Bilbao there‘s at least half the vehicles with U.K. plates.


----------



## MrSki (Apr 28, 2021)




----------



## MrSki (Apr 30, 2021)

Another blow for the fishing community.


----------



## editor (Apr 30, 2021)

For the first time in the five years I've been with them, my band still has ZERO European gigs and festivals lined up mainly because of Brexit (*yes Covid clearly decimated gigs in the past, but we'd normally have at least 3-4 tours booked by now for the summer and next year). 

Talk to promoters and venues and they'll say the same story: the uncertainty about Brexit/visas/taxes etc means it's simply not worth the effort or risk to book bands right now.


----------



## ska invita (Apr 30, 2021)

MrSki said:


> Another blow for the fishing community.



this is pretty incredible that they couldn't even knock together some shit deal for a year - to end up with no fishing access at all has got to be devastating for those involved. Even the Express think its a fuck up, which is saying something








						Brexit fishing FAILURE: Boris leaves hundreds of jobs on brink after botching Norway deal
					

BORIS Johnson has been warned hundreds have been left on the brink of redundancy after the Government FAILED to secure a crucial deal with Norway to secure the future of distant water fishing.




					www.express.co.uk


----------



## MrSki (Apr 30, 2021)

editor said:


> For the first time in the five years I've been with them, my band still has ZERO European gigs and festivals lined up mainly because of Brexit (*yes Covid clearly decimated gigs in the past, but we'd normally have at least 3-4 tours booked by now for the summer and next year).
> 
> Talk to promoters and venues and they'll say the same story: the uncertainty about Brexit/visas/taxes etc means it's simply not worth the effort or risk to book bands right now.


Doesn't look like it will be sorted anytime soon.











						Over 300 creative organisations demand Prime Minister delivers on his…
					

Over 300 creative organisations demand Prime Minister delivers on promise to fix the Brexit crisis in letter coordinated by Incorporated Society of Musicians




					www.ism.org


----------



## Badgers (Apr 30, 2021)




----------



## MrSki (Apr 30, 2021)




----------



## gosub (May 1, 2021)

MrSki said:


> Another blow for the fishing community.











						Brexit: chips down on cod | Turbulent Times
					

At the turn of midnight, quietly, almost silently, the UK slid into a new phase in its relationship with the EU as the Trade and Cooperation Agreement came into force, following its delayed ratification by the European Parliament. If there were any celebrations of this turning point in British...




					www.turbulenttimes.co.uk


----------



## Badgers (May 3, 2021)

__





						UK accused of reneging on sustainable fishing pledge
					






					amp.ft.com


----------



## MrSki (May 3, 2021)




----------



## Badgers (May 4, 2021)

Express so might be true 

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1...rance-spain-spt/amp?__twitter_impression=true 

Lovely looking Italian eatery


----------



## dessiato (May 4, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Express so might be true
> 
> https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1...rance-spain-spt/amp?__twitter_impression=true
> 
> Lovely looking Italian eatery


The link isn’t working on my iPad


----------



## Spymaster (May 4, 2021)

Dead link


----------



## Badgers (May 4, 2021)

Expat nightmare: Britons in Italy warned 'taxes could rise by thousands'
					

BREXIT could see expats in Italy hit with extra tax duties as Britons in Spain already rush home.




					www.express.co.uk


----------



## dessiato (May 4, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Expat nightmare: Britons in Italy warned 'taxes could rise by thousands'
> 
> 
> BREXIT could see expats in Italy hit with extra tax duties as Britons in Spain already rush home.
> ...


The comments are interesting.

I’m still surprised that one of my former colleagues living here in Spain has still not got full legal documents. She thinks she will be ok. I think that, now she works for herself, she is in for a surprise.


----------



## The39thStep (May 4, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Expat nightmare: Britons in Italy warned 'taxes could rise by thousands'
> 
> 
> BREXIT could see expats in Italy hit with extra tax duties as Britons in Spain already rush home.
> ...


They are using a photo of a bar in Spain.


----------



## Badgers (May 4, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> They are using a photo of a bar in Spain.


Lazy cunts


----------



## two sheds (May 4, 2021)

Well it's foreign  what more do you want?


----------



## Badgers (May 5, 2021)

__





						I swallowed the Brexit lies. Now I regret telling curry house workers to vote leave  | Brexit | The Guardian
					

Boris Johnson and Priti Patel said we would be able to employ more chefs from south Asia, says chef Oli Khan




					amp.theguardian.com
				






> At the time, the Bangladesh Caterers Association was worried about an average of four restaurants closing a week, rising rents and soaring business rates. Both Priti Patel and Boris Johnson approached us to collaborate with and support the Save Our Curry Houses campaign set up by Vote Leave. They said if we were to support the leave campaign, they would ensure we were able to get more chefs from south Asia by relaxing immigration rules with lower salary thresholds to hire staff from outside the EU.
> 
> And we made the mistake of believing them.
> 
> We were – and still are – struggling to get chefs to Britain from south Asia as the rules state you have to pay a salary of £35,000 to offer a curry chef’s job to a south Asian: a sum that is simply unthinkable for a large number of smaller restaurants.


----------



## Badgers (May 5, 2021)




----------



## Badgers (May 5, 2021)

Paperwork is the new trade in post-Brexit Britain  - The Loadstar
					

A new white paper, Brand New Britain: What Post-Brexit Really Means for Businesses, reveals the depth and length of the challenges faced by businesses in the UK as they adapt to the new trading environment.  Released by DDC FPO, a global provider of business process outsourcing solutions for the...




					theloadstar.com
				






> The research points to four particular areas of concern for businesses, with increased administrative costs topping the bill. With an additional 400m customs declarations, resulting in some £13bn year in paperwork costs, more than 80% of respondents have faced costs increases, while more than 70% said the new paperwork was a challenge, which was derailing efficiency. Nearly half the respondents said they needed to employ more staff to help with the changes.


----------



## bimble (May 5, 2021)

Thread's a bit shit now isn't it. Where are all the people explaining that all these links are either fake news, of minor concern to poshos only, or else actually good news really.


----------



## Badgers (May 5, 2021)

bimble said:


> Thread's a bit shit now isn't it. Where are all the people explaining that all these links are either fake news, of minor concern to poshos only, or else actually good news really.


Check the 'Project Fear' thread


----------



## Badgers (May 5, 2021)

London Emerges From Lockdown Harder Hit Than Much of the U.K.
					






					www.bloomberg.com
				






> The financial district also is suffering from Brexit, which ended the automatic right of banks to do business on the continent. More than 440 financial firms have moved some of their operations into the EU, resulting in about 7,400 job relocations and a 900 billion-pound ($1.2 trillion) shift of assets.


----------



## MrSki (May 5, 2021)




----------



## Badgers (May 6, 2021)

Oyster farmer: ‘It has been an absolute disgrace by our government’
					

Chris Le Masurier, owner of the Jersey Oyster Company, described conditions placed upon the new post-Brexit fishing licences issued to Breton and Norman fishermen as ‘insulting and discriminatory’. He said: ‘I will stand with them and take the ...




					jerseyeveningpost.com
				




Best to send in the gunships lads. 

Election day coincidence?


----------



## Badgers (May 6, 2021)




----------



## Badgers (May 6, 2021)

Sail over to France, Give Johnny Frenchman a good kicking, impregnate the chorus line at the Moulin Rouge, grab a crate of Chateau neuf de pap and back home for tea and medals


----------



## Badgers (May 6, 2021)

UK gives full formal diplomatic recognition to EU ambassador.









						Brexit: UK gives EU ambassador full diplomatic status
					

Joao Vale de Almeida will be immune from taxation or prosecution, as with officials from sovereign nations.



					www.bbc.co.uk
				




#worldbeating


----------



## Badgers (May 6, 2021)

Brexit Bites the Falkland Islands’ Calamari – Byline Times
					

Local officials are considering breaking ranks with the UK Government and asking the EU for help, reports David Hencke




					bylinetimes.com
				






> Barkman said that the 42% tariff on Falklands lamb – there are 500,000 sheep on the island, compared to a human population of roughly 3,000 – has completely killed its EU market, causing hardship for farmers. The UK has said that the farmers could export their lamb to the UK tariff-free – but there are concerns that it could not compete with home-grown Welsh and Scottish lamb.
> 
> Barkman pointed out that the Islanders are not able to negotiate directly with the EU, as the UK handles its foreign affairs – but that many are now tempted to ask Spain to intervene, particularly as processing workers in Vigo could lose their jobs if exports from the Falklands are cut.


----------



## TopCat (May 6, 2021)

Until Labour remainers properly accept Brexit, the party will be stuck in limbo | Larry Elliott
					

Brexit has settled the UK’s relationship with the EU for years to come. Labour’s duty now is to help improve leavers’ lives, says Guardian columnist Larry Elliott




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## bimble (May 6, 2021)

Idk how anyone can write down seriously that the UK's relationship with the EU is 'settled'. I mean, brexit has happened, it is a fact, I don't think wasting energy on trying to reverse that is a good idea at all but the relationship is so not settled, it will probably never be, the terms of the relationship are going to be wrangled over endlessly probably until there's no longer such a thing as either the Uk or the EU.

for instance, if this is a settled relationship Idk what an unsettled one looks like.


----------



## MrSki (May 6, 2021)

Just heard on the radio that a British fishing vessel is joining the blockade.


----------



## BobDavis (May 6, 2021)

MrSki said:


> Just heard on the radio that a British fishing vessel is joining the blockade.


UK fishermen have got at least as bigger beef with the UK government as the French I guess ?


----------



## Smokeandsteam (May 6, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Until Labour remainers properly accept Brexit, the party will be stuck in limbo | Larry Elliott
> 
> 
> Brexit has settled the UK’s relationship with the EU for years to come. Labour’s duty now is to help improve leavers’ lives, says Guardian columnist Larry Elliott
> ...



“Remainers often give the impression that they welcome bad economic news on the grounds that it makes rejoining the EU more feasible. This is not a good political look.”

I was thinking about starting a thread where we can track these types of continuity remain offerings, along with their apocalyptic warnings - lorry parks, food shortages, the end of the world  etc - that haven’t happened. But then I remembered we already had one!


----------



## glitch hiker (May 6, 2021)

I thought we did have lorry parks? And a permit to enter Kent and all the rest of it. 

Food shortages don't seem to have happened, but the fishing industry is knackered and we're sending gunboats to Jersey!

Cue "Gotcha!" headline in the Scum


----------



## Ax^ (May 6, 2021)

what a load of shit this story is


French fishermen don't want to apply for permits to fish in water they been using for years
so blockading a Harbour


"send in the Gun boats this is what Brexit is for lads"


rest of the uk fish industry quickly dying on its fucking arse


----------



## The39thStep (May 6, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> “Remainers often give the impression that they welcome bad economic news on the grounds that it makes rejoining the EU more feasible. This is not a good political look.”
> 
> I was thinking about starting a thread where we can track these types of continuity remain offerings, along with their apocalyptic warnings - lorry parks, food shortages, the end of the world  etc - that haven’t happened. But then I remembered we already had one!


'We wont make a drama out of a crisis'


----------



## Ax^ (May 6, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Until Labour remainers properly accept Brexit, the party will be stuck in limbo | Larry Elliott
> 
> 
> Brexit has settled the UK’s relationship with the EU for years to come. Labour’s duty now is to help improve leavers’ lives, says Guardian columnist Larry Elliott
> ...



Brexit fan still like brexit in shocking Guardian article


----------



## The39thStep (May 6, 2021)

Never knew that there is a traditional Jersey language


----------



## Pickman's model (May 6, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Until Labour remainers properly accept Brexit, the party will be stuck in limbo | Larry Elliott
> 
> 
> Brexit has settled the UK’s relationship with the EU for years to come. Labour’s duty now is to help improve leavers’ lives, says Guardian columnist Larry Elliott
> ...


Until the Labour party has someone with some principles and politics leading it it will remain mired in the mud


----------



## two sheds (May 6, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Never knew that there is a traditional Jersey language



37 words for "tax evasion"?


----------



## The39thStep (May 6, 2021)

two sheds said:


> 37 words for "tax evasion"?


Le money est sur la table,


----------



## Johnny Doe (May 6, 2021)

Raheem said:


> Wanting to grow them from foreign seeds. You could at least pick flowers that are going to understand our culture, like Australian ones.


Coming over here using up our photosynthesis!


----------



## Pickman's model (May 6, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Never knew that there is a traditional Jersey language



It's colloquially known as sweater


----------



## MrSki (May 6, 2021)




----------



## editor (May 6, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> “Remainers often give the impression that they welcome bad economic news on the grounds that it makes rejoining the EU more feasible. This is not a good political look.”
> 
> I was thinking about starting a thread where we can track these types of continuity remain offerings, along with their apocalyptic warnings - lorry parks, food shortages, the end of the world  etc - that haven’t happened. But then I remembered we already had one!


It's not going very well though is it?


----------



## flypanam (May 6, 2021)

bimble said:


> Idk how anyone can write down seriously that the UK's relationship with the EU is 'settled'. I mean, brexit has happened, it is a fact, I don't think wasting energy on trying to reverse that is a good idea at all but the relationship is so not settled, it will probably never be, the terms of the relationship are going to be wrangled over endlessly probably until there's no longer such a thing as either the Uk or the EU.
> 
> for instance, if this is a settled relationship Idk what an unsettled one looks like.
> 
> View attachment 266906


There must be an election on today or something.


----------



## Supine (May 6, 2021)

editor said:


> It's not going very well though is it?



You mean playing argy-bargy with boats isn’t preferable to working with neighbours in the spirit of friendship and collaboration?


----------



## Smokeandsteam (May 6, 2021)

editor said:


> It's not going very well though is it?



This thread? I disagree. It's _priceless_


----------



## editor (May 6, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> This thread?


No, Brexit.

How's it working out for you what with all the trouble in Northern Ireland, bands and the arts being totally fucked over, exports plummeting for various small industries, and now the Royal navy sending gunships out into the Channel, like a mini-me version of Thatcher's Falklands gunboat diplomacy? All good?  Worth voting for again?


----------



## gosub (May 6, 2021)

The notion Bob Geldof was last seen heading south  in a pedalo muttering how all fisherman are wankers and that the Boomtoon rats haven't got any EUropean gigs booked, is probably made up


----------



## MrSki (May 6, 2021)

Still never mind I am sure that a lot of Brexiteers who voted because there were too many Eastern Europeans in Little Britain are well chuffed that FOM is to be granted to our Indian cousins.


----------



## BobDavis (May 6, 2021)

editor said:


> It's not going very well though is it?


Here in my rural part of 70odd percent leave voting Essex most would say brexit is going very well. 21reg SUVs are everywhere & builders are selling £half mill detached houses & bungalows as fast as they can chuck them up on any available pocket handkerchief piece of land they can find. They would reckon the vaccine programme is going fantastically because of brexit. The supermarket shelves remain full so what is not to like ?

I wonder if this French fishing dispute has been engineered with perfect timing on polling day by the tories to make voters vote tory ?


----------



## klang (May 6, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> what a load of shit this story is


yes but there is still a glimmer of hope for outright war.


----------



## MrSki (May 6, 2021)




----------



## MrSki (May 6, 2021)




----------



## Steel Icarus (May 6, 2021)

We're almost five years and two years the other side of the referendum. At what point are all the bad decisions made by the Tories going to stop being thrown stinking at the feet of the people on here who voted Leave, the vast majority of whom (I'm guessing) did not vote Tory in 2017 or 2019?


----------



## MrSki (May 6, 2021)

S☼I said:


> We're almost five years and two years the other side of the referendum. At what point are all the bad decisions made by the Tories going to stop being thrown stinking at the feet of the people on here who voted Leave, the vast majority of whom (I'm guessing) did not vote Tory in 2017 or 2019?


Surely if you voted Brexit you knew what you were voting for?


----------



## Steel Icarus (May 6, 2021)

MrSki said:


> Surely if you voted Brexit you knew what you were voting for?


Why have you not read or understood anything that's been said on this site on this matter?


----------



## Smokeandsteam (May 6, 2021)

MrSki said:


> Surely if you voted Brexit you knew what you were voting for?




Yes. 100%. A vote against the common enemy.


----------



## The39thStep (May 6, 2021)

S☼I said:


> Why have you not read or understood anything that's been said on this site on this matter?


Of course not . The main thing is to portray Leavers as people who have no idea what they were voting for and Remainers  as fully informed smug experts on everything . They are like people who watch roadworks with their hands clasped behind their backs .


----------



## MrSki (May 6, 2021)

S☼I said:


> Why have you not read or understood anything that's been said on this site on this matter?


I have read enough to know that the pig shagger called a referendum to silence UKIP & the right wing of the tory party but didn't take into account that various elements would invest in Brexit. The Russians pumped money into the cause of breaking up the EU & others (Steve Bannon et al) who were into tax avoidance were willing to splash the cash to swing an illegal vote. Press barons who are mainly tax exiles were also willing to bat for the cause & the electorate was constantly lied to about things like Turkey joining the EU. People were persuaded to vote Brexit to give the toffs a bloody nose without realising they were actually enabling bigger cunts to get their way. Always claiming they knew what they were voting for.
I doubt many Brexit voters realised they were voting to give Indians FOM in the UK but that will all play out with time.


----------



## MrSki (May 6, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Of course not . The main thing is to portray Leavers as people who have no idea what they were voting for and Remainers  as fully informed smug experts on everything . They are like people who watch roadworks with their hands clasped behind their backs .


Or people who pointed out what might possibly go wrong just had 'Project Fear' shouted at them but seemed to actually have an idea of what might go wrong.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (May 6, 2021)

MrSki said:


> Or people who pointed out what might possibly go wrong just had 'Project Fear' shouted at them but seemed to actually have an idea of what might go wrong.




As the EU economy decomposes and its citizens, condemned by their ruling class to the dead zone of neoliberalism, endure a third lockdown continuity remain pats itself on the back for having ‘an idea of what might go wrong’ Spectacular.


----------



## Ax^ (May 6, 2021)

of course the Tory party won't privatise everything and play to the markets like the evil neoliberal EU


----------



## toblerone3 (May 6, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> As the EU economy decomposes and its citizens, condemned by their ruling class to the dead zone of neoliberalism, endure a third lockdown continuity remain pats itself on the back for having ‘an idea of what might go wrong’ Spectacular.



What does that pile of shit even mean? Resign !!!


----------



## bimble (May 6, 2021)

toblerone3 said:


> What does that pile of shit even mean? Resign !!!


It sounds really good though, imagine it in a gravelly voice as a trailer to a sort of really shit futuristic zombie film.


----------



## Supine (May 6, 2021)

toblerone3 said:


> What does that pile of shit even mean? Resign !!!



it’s nice to see someone with an active imagination


----------



## stdP (May 6, 2021)

As the UK economy decomposes and its citizens, condemned by their ruling class to the dead zone of neoliberalism, endure a third lockdown radical leave pats itself on the back for saying ‘this is what we meant to happen all along’ Spectacular.


----------



## TopCat (May 6, 2021)

(Sings) And we all stand together...


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (May 6, 2021)

My step-great-aunt is dead because she lived in the EU. Had she lived in the U.K. she would not be dead. I do keep banging on about this, but being alive is a benefit that I like, weirdo.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (May 6, 2021)

stdP said:


> As the UK economy decomposes and its citizens, condemned by their ruling class to the dead zone of neoliberalism, endure a third lockdown radical leave pats itself on the back for saying ‘this is what we meant to happen all along’ Spectacular.



Two small problems with your post to reflect on: The respective 1. roll out of the vaccine and 2. Economic forecasts. Other than that superb post, truly worthy of the thread.


----------



## MrSki (May 6, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> My step-great-aunt is dead because she lived in the EU. Had she lived in the U.K. she would not be dead. I do keep banging on about this, but being alive is a benefit that I like, weirdo.


Sorry for your loss but there is also the chance that with the UK's high death rate that she could have died of the virus here too. I presume you are referring to the slow EU vaccine role out but if you look pre-vaccine she would have had a better life expectancy in the EU. 

Once again sorry for your loss & not something to try and score points over.


----------



## Spymaster (May 6, 2021)

This thread is dogshit. It's like the first page has just been repeated 54 times.


----------



## Supine (May 6, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Two small problems with your post to reflect on: The respective 1. roll out of the vaccine and 2. Economic forecasts. Other than that superb post, truly worthy of the thread.



Having done some reflection 1. Not related to being outside EU - indeed uk procurement done while inside and 2. All economic forecasts show uk is worse off being outside.

You do get a blue passport and a Christmas card from Farage though. Happy days.


----------



## Spymaster (May 6, 2021)

See what I mean?


----------



## Smokeandsteam (May 6, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> This thread is dogshit. It's like the first page has just been repeated 54 times.



It’s akin to one of those Facebook nostalgia pages where all the pearl clutching posters constantly post stuff to prove ‘the old days were better’.


----------



## MrSki (May 6, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> This thread is dogshit. It's like the first page has just been repeated 54 times.


But you are still reading it?


----------



## Supine (May 6, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> See what I mean?



The other side keep being wrong. Not my fault.

Obviously they will say the same thing


----------



## Ax^ (May 6, 2021)

think its because people keep trying to bring in the vaccine roll out as something of a plus for brexit

tbh the uk was still under eu conditions when the Vaccine was approved by the MHRA, you are allowed under EU rules to approved something
if you have  a rampant disease running thru you population

after that the uk just signed up quicker to buy more of it

Vaccine nationalism is ballocks oddly enough


----------



## Yossarian (May 6, 2021)

MrSki said:


> Sorry for your loss but there is also the chance that with the UK's high death rate that she could have died of the virus here too. I presume you are referring to the slow EU vaccine role out but if you look pre-vaccine she would have had a better life expectancy in the EU.
> 
> Once again sorry for your loss & not something to try and score points over.



Yeah, a reduced risk of dying from COVID-19 isn't generally cited as one of the benefits of living under the Johnson regime.


----------



## MrSki (May 6, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> It’s akin to one of those Facebook nostalgia pages where all the pearl clutching posters constantly post stuff to prove ‘the old days were better’.


Oh come on it gives you a chance to show us how well read you are. Feel free to post what has benefited the UK working class though.


----------



## Spymaster (May 6, 2021)

MrSki said:


> But you are still reading it?


I dip in every now and then for confirmation. At least the other ones are amusing.


----------



## RD2003 (May 6, 2021)

MrSki said:


> Oh come on it gives you a chance to show us how well read you are. Feel free to post what has benefited the UK working class though.


For fuck's sake, forget it. It was all done 5 years ago. Yes, everybody knows it was a choice between two different sets of cunts,
You'd be better worrying about what's coming down the line. There are worse viruses than Covid 19 on the way, and that's leaving aside climate change and all the other impending infernos. Welcome to the age of permanent crisis. In the EU or out, it will make little fucking difference.


----------



## gosub (May 7, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> This thread is dogshit. It's like the first page has just been repeated 54 times.



Some interesting stuff does come through it but I will  bore of it

Can't remember who post a link to the first in


but cheers


----------



## BobDavis (May 7, 2021)

When the brexit ref was announced just about everybody I knew where enthusiastic about voting to leave. Many could not even give a reason. The EU & Europe was so far removed from their lives in the town they live in they just could not see the point of membership. Nothing in the campaign convinced them or needed to. Their minds were made up already. Many of them rarely voted in elections because they could not see the point but they voted leave in the ref because they saw the point of leaving something they saw no point of being a member of.

Their minds have not changed since nor will they. They always saw the EU & some of it’s members as the enemy & anything that has happened since has not changed their minds on that nor will it. I am not so sure that what is written in the popular right wing press forms their opinions more so I think it just reflects their already long held opinions.

Generally they are racist. They see the white people around them as the people that belong here & those with brown or black skin even UK born merely as guests in this country who will never belong.

This is why I think working class people make the seemingly irrational decision to vote Tory. While any critical thinker would argue that the Tories do not represent the interests of the working class I think plenty of white W/c people would say the current far right government masquerading as traditional tories represent their interests exactly.

Throughout my working life of truck driving since the 1970s I was surrounded by some of the most horribly racist extremist right wing white working class men that it was my misfortune to know & I know that those in my town now. That is polite urbane people some working some retired hold horribly racist world views. Just ordinary white working class folk living in provincial towns. Vile racists most of them. The current Tory party is perfect for them & they deserve each other.


----------



## Sunray (May 7, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> think its because people keep trying to bring in the vaccine roll out as something of a plus for brexit
> 
> tbh the uk was still under eu conditions when the Vaccine was approved by the MHRA, you are allowed under EU rules to approved something
> if you have  a rampant disease running thru you population
> ...



Vaccines are nothing to do with Brexit.  The EU had to order 7 times the amount the UK ordered.  You don't get that overnight.  Given the numbers production problems are amplified.
They are only 4 weeks behind the UK to vaccinate everyone, given the population of 488 million, ticking along ok.  Just took a bit longer to get going.
Spun out to intolerable bullshit by politicians and the press.


----------



## Ax^ (May 7, 2021)

Sunray said:


> Vaccines are nothing to do with Brexit.  The EU had to order 7 times the amount the UK ordered.  You don't get that overnight.  Given the numbers production problems are amplified.
> They are only 4 weeks behind the UK to vaccinate everyone, given the population of 488 million, ticking along ok.  Just took a bit longer to get going.
> Spun out to intolerable bullshit by politicians and the press.



think we agree on the same point


----------



## The39thStep (May 7, 2021)

BobDavis said:


> When the brexit ref was announced just about everybody I knew where enthusiastic about voting to leave. Many could not even give a reason. The EU & Europe was so far removed from their lives in the town they live in they just could not see the point of membership. Nothing in the campaign convinced them or needed to. Their minds were made up already. Many of them rarely voted in elections because they could not see the point but they voted leave in the ref because they saw the point of leaving something they saw no point of being a member of.
> 
> Their minds have not changed since nor will they. They always saw the EU & some of it’s members as the enemy & anything that has happened since has not changed their minds on that nor will it. I am not so sure that what is written in the popular right wing press forms their opinions more so I think it just reflects their already long held opinions.
> 
> ...


Give it a rest Bob , you posted some interesting stuff up at first . However it’s now coming across like one mans fight against lynchings , concentration camps and the 4th Reich .


----------



## BobDavis (May 8, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Give it a rest Bob , you posted some interesting stuff up at first . However it’s now coming across like one mans fight against lynchings , concentration camps and the 4th Reich .


Yes that’s just what It is but as indicated from the first page onwards this bin dodging thread & it’s sometimes bitter twisted content richly deserve each other.


----------



## Dogsauce (May 8, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> Yeah, a reduced risk of dying from COVID-19 isn't generally cited as one of the benefits of living under the Johnson regime.



The ‘U.K. variant’ that is killing thousands in Europe is on us, poor control of the virus (late lockdown, fucked up track and trace) gave It a large poorly protected host population where mutations had a greater chance of occurring. ‘Let it rip’ they said.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (May 8, 2021)

Sunray said:


> Vaccines are nothing to do with Brexit.  The EU had to order 7 times the amount the UK ordered.  You don't get that overnight.  Given the numbers production problems are amplified.
> They are only 4 weeks behind the UK to vaccinate everyone, given the population of 488 million, ticking along ok.  Just took a bit longer to get going.
> Spun out to intolerable bullshit by politicians and the press.



Yeah, like this politician...


----------



## Artaxerxes (May 10, 2021)




----------



## BobDavis (May 10, 2021)

Eu membership was never a block to having Freeports in the UK. There were specific reasons for having them ie Southampton the BAT fag factory making Dunhill, Lucky Strike etc among other well known brands for export which allowed the factory to import the tobacco tax free for it to be made into fags for export.

The factory which was claimed to be the most efficient fag production facility in the world closed in 2006 & production moved to Eastern Europe to cut costs. It wasn’t just foreign workers in the UK that caused many to vote brexit it was because their own well paid jobs had been exported to Eastern Europe years ago.

Reading up about Freeports seems to suggest they are just a gimmick which could encourage large scale tax fraud & jobs created could well mean loss of jobs in other parts of the country.


----------



## Smangus (May 10, 2021)

Dude you've got it all wrong , Freeports - it's all about GLOBAL  BRITAIN!!!!

 Just like the queens shiny new aircraft carriers


----------



## krtek a houby (May 10, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


>




Thought that was the Millennium Falcon for a second


----------



## NoXion (May 10, 2021)

BobDavis said:


> When the brexit ref was announced just about everybody I knew where enthusiastic about voting to leave. Many could not even give a reason. The EU & Europe was so far removed from their lives in the town they live in they just could not see the point of membership. Nothing in the campaign convinced them or needed to. Their minds were made up already. Many of them rarely voted in elections because they could not see the point but they voted leave in the ref because they saw the point of leaving something they saw no point of being a member of.



Sounds like people are much more engaged when they actually get to make decisions in the political process, rather than having to delegate them to some publicly-educated schoolboy who offered empty promises in return for a cushy job.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (May 10, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


>





This is Liz Truss's fuck up, she really is a stand-out turd down the sewage farm.


----------



## Curiouscarl (May 10, 2021)

I think the British people are too easily divided or distracted.

Certain scenarios I thought would ignite rage throughout the country did not. But when a lady puts a cat in a bin, the country LOST ITS MIND!

So, good luck.


----------



## pseudonarcissus (May 10, 2021)

Smangus said:


> Dude you've got it all wrong , Freeports - it's all about GLOBAL  BRITAIN!!!!
> 
> Just like the queens shiny new aircraft carriers


get the old gal a new yacht, I say


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (May 12, 2021)

11,000 more nurses in January 2021 than in January 2020 

Surely not possible, having left the EU nurses are fleeing back to the utopia over the channel, no?


----------



## Yossarian (May 12, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> 11,000 more nurses in January 2021 than in January 2020
> 
> Surely not possible, having left the EU nurses are fleeing back to the utopia over the channel, no?



Might have been a few other things beside Brexit going on between January 2020 and January 2021 that inspired thousands of nurses and other health workers to join the profession, IIRC.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (May 12, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> Might have been a few other things beside Brexit going on between January 2020 and January 2021 that inspired thousands of nurses and other health workers to join the profession, IIRC.



The 1% pay rise?


----------



## Badgers (May 12, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> 11,000 more nurses in January 2021 than in January 2020
> 
> Surely not possible, having left the EU nurses are fleeing back to the utopia over the channel, no?


Does that include the retired nurses who came back to bail out the underfunded NHS?


----------



## mojo pixy (May 12, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> Might have been a few other things beside Brexit going on between January 2020 and January 2021 that inspired thousands of nurses and other health workers to join the profession, IIRC.





Bahnhof Strasse said:


> The 1% pay rise?



The weekly round of applause


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (May 12, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Does that include the retired nurses who came back to bail out the underfunded NHS?



Not according to the article, no. Plus 48,000 applications to be new nurses.


----------



## Badgers (May 12, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Not according to the article, no. Plus 48,000 applications to be new nurses.


Guess there is a lot of people out of work due to the Brexit failure and Covid.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 12, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Guess there is a lot of people out of work due to the Brexit failure and Covid.


Sadly hundreds of MPs haven't joined them


----------



## gosub (May 12, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> The 1% pay rise?


1% + claps


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (May 12, 2021)

gosub said:


> 1% + claps




All the claps you can eat.


----------



## discokermit (May 12, 2021)

when i last looked at welding jobs five years ago they were paying less than ten pounds an hour round here. had a look today and theres jobs for twenty pounds an hour!
had a look at plumbing jobs and they were up to sixty pounds an hour!
could it be anything to do with the tap of cheap skilled labour being turned off?


----------



## TopCat (May 12, 2021)

Site work rates are increasing also. Two hundred a day is not hard to find.


----------



## TopCat (May 12, 2021)

Soon we will have the whinging middle classes complaining again at having to pay decent money for skilled workers.


----------



## Smangus (May 12, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Soon we will have the whinging middle classes complaining again at having to pay decent money for skilled workers.



Never mind that, the cost of flights to Tuscany and Avignon are going up    and I have to queue up for the bliddy passport nonsense now!


----------



## discokermit (May 12, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Soon we will have the whinging middle classes complaining again at having to pay decent money for skilled workers.


_its not the money, its just the local ones are so rude. our polish builders bought us a cake to celebrate our new extension!_


----------



## TopCat (May 12, 2021)

discokermit said:


> _its not the money, its just the local ones are so rude. our polish builders bought us a cake to celebrate our new extension!_


Suitably deferential. It’s essential to know your place and to demonstrate that you know it.


----------



## gosub (May 12, 2021)

discokermit said:


> _its not the money, its just the local ones are so rude. our polish builders bought us a cake to celebrate our new extension!_


tbf If British builders try giving their Polish customers a cake, EU border force confiscate it


----------



## discokermit (May 12, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Suitably deferential. It’s essential to know your place and to demonstrate that you know it.


for the record, i did loads of welding for conversions, fire escapes and balconies, etc. at peoples houses when i was in london, either just with our gang but often with the crew of a local builder we did a lot of work for. everyone was always polite. they just prefer their workers to be trained under a totalitarian regime but most of all, cheap.


----------



## Curiouscarl (May 12, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> All the claps you can eat.


Why be sarcastic. You're telling me you cannot eat claps?


----------



## Badgers (May 13, 2021)

https://www.repubblica.it/esteri/20...24272/amp/#click=[URL]https://t.co/VCtKKgzEd8[/URL]



> Marta, 24, was supposed to work as au pair in London. However, without a working visa, she was sent to the Colnbrook Immigration Removal Centre. Every personal belonging was seized, including her smartphone, "because they didn't want me to take pictures or videos: my window had bars, walls barbed wire. I was shocked. Another young woman from Tuscany told me she had been held there for 5 days". Dozens of EU citizens have reportedly suffered the same since January the 1st


----------



## MrSki (May 13, 2021)




----------



## Spymaster (May 13, 2021)

MrSki said:


>



They haven't conceded at all. They've given the French an extension to apply for licences until July 1st and in return the French are allowing Jersey fisherman to land catches in Normandy.


----------



## MrSki (May 13, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> They haven't conceded at all. They've given the French an extension to apply for licences until July 1st and in return the French are allowing Jersey fisherman to land catches in Normandy.


So the French fishing protest had no affect at all?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (May 13, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> They haven't conceded at all. They've given the French an extension to apply for licences until July 1st and in return the French are allowing Jersey fisherman to land catches in Normandy.



And largely unreported in the UK, with only obscure media sources reporting...









						Jersey gives French fishermen more time in licence row
					

French vessels have until 1 July to prove they meet post-Brexit rules, Jersey's government says.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## MrSki (May 13, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> And largely unreported in the UK, with only obscure media sources reporting...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well given the media frenzy when Navy vessels were sent an article tucked away on the BBC website fits into the 'largely unreported' frame in my book. Have you seen it on the TV news?


----------



## Spymaster (May 13, 2021)

MrSki said:


> So the French fishing protest had no affect at all?



No. Do you seriously think the Jersey government changed their minds because a couple of dozen French boats turned up for half an hour? One of the main levers the French are pulling is the blocking of a UK financial services deal with the EU because of fucking fishing rights in Jersey!

This is the kind of bullying club that you're so keen to be part of.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (May 13, 2021)

MrSki said:


> Well given the media frenzy when Navy vessels were sent an article tucked away on the BBC website fits into the 'largely unreported' frame in my book. Have you seen it on the TV news?



I don't watch TV news, but Jersey giving French fishermen more time to apply for fishing licences is hardly a killer story.


----------



## MrSki (May 13, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> I don't watch TV news, but Jersey giving French fishermen more time to apply for fishing licences is hardly a killer story.


But sending gun boats on election day was. What a surprise. Day where the news is not  supposed to cover the election there was a great 'Brexit getting things done' story to cover instead.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (May 13, 2021)

MrSki said:


> But sending gun boats on election day was. What a surprise. Day where the news is not  supposed to cover the election there was a great 'Brexit getting things done' story to cover instead.




Of course, argie-bargey with the French is always going to be a big story, even if in reality it is just handbags.


----------



## NoXion (May 13, 2021)

MrSki said:


> But sending gun boats on election day was. What a surprise. Day where the news is not  supposed to cover the election there was a great 'Brexit getting things done' story to cover instead.



I doubt that made as much difference as the current uselessness of the Labour party.


----------



## andysays (May 13, 2021)

MrSki said:


> But sending gun boats on election day was. What a surprise. Day where the news is not  supposed to cover the election there was a great 'Brexit getting things done' story to cover instead.


The timing of this was a gift to the UK government, but as far as I can see the timing was entirely the result of actions by the French government in threatening to cut the power off and the actions of the protestors in response.

As a Leave voter I'd obviously like to take credit, but I really don't think it's justified.


----------



## two sheds (May 13, 2021)

You think the British and French governments don't talk to each other about these things?


----------



## Pickman's model (May 13, 2021)

two sheds said:


> You think the British and French governments don't talk to each other about these things?


Sources with knowledge of the conversations report president macron just hangs up on a tearful johnson who pleads for help on a daily basis


----------



## MrSki (May 14, 2021)

Feel sorry for anyone from NI this might affect.


----------



## MrSki (May 15, 2021)

Well worth reading this twitter thread if you are thinking of travelling to France when it is allowed especially if you are staying with friends.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (May 15, 2021)

MrSki said:


> Feel sorry for anyone from NI this might affect.





I thought you were anti-Brexit, and now you're arguing in favour of it. Strange times indeed.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (May 15, 2021)

MrSki said:


> Feel sorry for anyone from NI this might affect.





Similar to the thousands of Covid deaths the EU caused:




> Under the terms of the Brexit deal drugs such as osimertinib, which can improve survival rates by up to 75 per cent, is excluded from use in Northern Ireland because it has not been approved for the same purpose by the European Medicines Agency.


ALIVE 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 DEAD


----------



## Yossarian (May 15, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Similar to the thousands of Covid deaths the EU caused:



The UK only approved the drug eight days ago and patients in Northern Ireland can still get it if their doctors recommend it, so the EU's extra caution in approving probably won't kill anybody.



> It said that the drug “is available for all NI patients who will benefit from this treatment at the oncologist’s discretion while authorisation by the EMA is finalised”.
> 
> Stormont’s Department of Health told the newspaper that “patients in NI may still be able to access Tagrisso for this additional indication following a discussion with their clinician, in line with extant processes for access to new medicines.”











						NI Protocol preventing approval of life-saving cancer treatment
					

A new cancer treatment for patients in Great Britain has not been approved for Northern Ireland because of the Irish Sea border.




					www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk


----------



## MrSki (May 15, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> I thought you were anti-Brexit, and now you're arguing in favour of it. Strange times indeed.


What "Brexit deal blocks life-saving cancer drug in NI" I am anti-Brexit but am also willing to point out how shite the NI protocol is for NI. The deal that Brexiteers negotiated.


----------



## ska invita (May 15, 2021)

MrSki said:


> Well worth reading this twitter thread if you are thinking of travelling to France when it is allowed especially if you are staying with friends.



is that all really the case, anyone know?
This in the TWitter thread relates to France, but comment beneath says its simliar for Spain
i've an invite from a friend in Spain to stay with and was going to take them up on it

"if you are staying with friends, you need to be registered with the town hall of the commune that you will be staying at PRIOR TO ENTERING THE COUNTRY.
The person housing you will need to provide a chunk of information (including proof of ownership of the property, proof of residence at the address, ID documents, proof of revenue, commit to supporting you financially if required and so on). There is a 30€ fee.
The relevant town hall can take up to one month to respond. The applicant will be issued with a certificate which they will then need to send to you for you to be able to enter the country."


----------



## MrSki (May 15, 2021)

ska invita said:


> is that all really the case, anyone know?
> This in the TWitter thread relates to France, but comment beneath says its simliar for Spain
> i've an invite from a friend in Spain to stay with and was going to take them up on it
> 
> ...


I would certainly check before you travel & a good month before.


----------



## bimble (May 15, 2021)

If you click on the link you see that all those rules about the accommodation certificate don't apply if you are 'European'.
Their definition of European doesn't include Brits (but does incl Norwegians & Swiss) so it seems like yeah might be true.


----------



## The39thStep (May 15, 2021)

ska invita said:


> is that all really the case, anyone know?
> This in the TWitter thread relates to France, but comment beneath says its simliar for Spain
> i've an invite from a friend in Spain to stay with and was going to take them up on it
> 
> ...


You are better off looking at the govt U.K. site for Spain than reading something on Twitter tbh .


----------



## existentialist (May 15, 2021)

ska invita said:


> is that all really the case, anyone know?
> This in the TWitter thread relates to France, but comment beneath says its simliar for Spain
> i've an invite from a friend in Spain to stay with and was going to take them up on it
> 
> ...


That is exactly what is actually going on, yes.


----------



## bimble (May 15, 2021)

Looks like no mention of it at all on the uk gov site when you look at the Spain page so might be safe to assume therefore its just France, & spain is totally fine.   

All this stuff is what people from (some) other countries have had to do forever, like find a 'sponsor' - someone willing to fill in forms to say they'll fund the person's trip if they run out of money etc - if they want to come over here even for a short trip. 
From my position as a smug multi-passport twat I can appreciate that this is a sort of "levelling up" if not quite the kind that the PM keeps going on about.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (May 15, 2021)

MrSki said:


> What "Brexit deal blocks life-saving cancer drug in NI" I am anti-Brexit but am also willing to point out how shite the NI protocol is for NI. The deal that Brexiteers negotiated.



Your story is U.K. approves a drug that the EU doesn’t and as a result of the EU wishing to protect its border people in NI can’t get it (even though in the real world they can). The deal was negotiated by both sides, that the Tories don’t care about Northern Ireland is hardly news to anyone other than the morons at the DUP, that a drug that can save lives is approved by the U.K. whilst the EU spends the next six months debating the issue leads to deaths. As they say, cool story...


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (May 15, 2021)

ska invita said:


> is that all really the case, anyone know?
> This in the TWitter thread relates to France, but comment beneath says its simliar for Spain
> i've an invite from a friend in Spain to stay with and was going to take them up on it
> 
> ...



It’s scaremongering bollocks. As of 1st January when entering the EU the same rules apply as have always applied going to Turkey, Tunisia, the US and so on; be prepared to state why you are travelling (don’t say for work, say tourism or business), show you have the means to support yourself whilst away (a credit card), possession of a ticket to leave the EU (some travel agents provide these at no cost if you ask nicely).

More agg than before but hardly world ending.


----------



## ska invita (May 15, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> It’s scaremongering bollocks. As of 1st January when entering the EU the same rules apply as have always applied going to Turkey, Tunisia, the US and so on; be prepared to state why you are travelling (don’t say for work, say tourism or business), show you have the means to support yourself whilst away (a credit card), possession of a ticket to leave the EU (some travel agents provide these at no cost if you ask nicely).
> 
> More agg than before but hardly world ending.


So is that stuff about going to the Hotel D'Ville a lie?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (May 15, 2021)

ska invita said:


> So is that stuff about going to the Hotel D'Ville a lie?



Yes.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (May 15, 2021)

The U.K. has left the EU, for better or worse. The U.K. will not be rejoining anytime soon, certainly not within most of our lifetimes. So we need to face up to that and learn to deal with it. Endless whinging about this or that inconvenience will not change the situation, so better to face reality and learn how the now order works.


----------



## ska invita (May 15, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> learn to deal with it.


Thats why i was asking...if there are rule changes we need to learn them


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (May 15, 2021)

Sure, there are many subtle changes and they are our new reality. Think about the rules for going to the US, Canada, Turkey and so on and that’s what we now face; an online form and small payment, plus a plausible excuse to give to the immigration bods. Things aren’t as easy as they were with regards to travel, but they are no harder than going anywhere that isn’t in the EU.


----------



## Supine (May 15, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> The U.K. has left the EU, for better or worse. The U.K. will not be rejoining anytime soon, certainly not within most of our lifetimes. So we need to face up to that and learn to deal with it. Endless whinging about this or that inconvenience will not change the situation, so better to face reality and learn how the now order works.



So it’s ok for you to bang on about how much better UK is vs EU on things like drug approvals but we can’t disagree or point out all the negatives? Seems fair


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (May 15, 2021)

Supine said:


> So it’s ok for you to bang on about how much better UK is vs EU on things like drug approvals but we can’t disagree or point out all the negatives? Seems fair



 You can point out the negatives all you like, there are many, but it won’t change a thing. Better to spend your energy making the best of the new reality, cos it ain’t going anywhere soon.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (May 15, 2021)

Fwiw from what my punters report, EU immigration bods have been fairly relaxed except the Dutch who seem to be fucking hostile to anyone with a U.K. passport. Everything is fucked up cos Covid which distorts shit as the EU has laid down diktats that countries such as Portugal were prepared to implement, on the same day that Germany opened its borders to any cunt that is vaccinated. As it happens the Portugal faff is another load of bollocks as (as we know) individual countries have sovereignty over their borders and Portugal’s reluctance was just being scared of their overlord’s reaction.


----------



## Badgers (May 16, 2021)

__





						Building crisis looms as dwindling supplies bring sites grinding to a halt | Construction industry | The Guardian
					

Shortages, delays and soaring prices caused by Brexit, Covid and the Suez blockage are holding up projects across the nation




					amp.theguardian.com
				






> Some smaller EU exporters have given up on the UK because of new trade barriers, according to Building magazine. Peter Caplehorn, the CPA’s chief executive, said last week that the UK could run out of key materials because there are not enough facilities to test them and provide the new UKCA certification which replaces the European CE quality mark.
> 
> Even those builders in the southeast who have materials are finding it impossible to recruit skilled workers because the number of construction workers from the EU in the UK has fallen by 42% since 2017, from 208,067 to 120,723 – nearly all having worked in London. “Don’t even go there,” Hayter said. “There’s not a shortage – there’s just no labour. The cupboard’s bare.”


----------



## Pickman's model (May 16, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> The U.K. has left the EU, for better or worse. The U.K. will not be rejoining anytime soon, certainly not within most of our lifetimes. So we need to face up to that and learn to deal with it. Endless whinging about this or that inconvenience will not change the situation, so better to face reality and learn how the now order works.


Yes by researching genealogy to discover eligibility for an EU passport


----------



## bimble (May 16, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> You can point out the negatives all you like, there are many, but it won’t change a thing. Better to spend your energy making the best of the new reality, cos it ain’t going anywhere soon.


That's exactly what i said to the little man down the road yesterday who sells plants, he was whinging on about how he has to pay double to import plants now, get with the program says i whining won't help make yr little business viable will it you loser.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 16, 2021)

bimble said:


> That's exactly what i said to the little man down the road yesterday who sells plants, he was whinging on about how he has to pay double to import plants now, get with the program says i whining won't help make yr little business viable will it you loser.


As you stuck an 'i'm backing britain' sticker on his lapel


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (May 16, 2021)

bimble said:


> That's exactly what i said to the little man down the road yesterday who sells plants, he was whinging on about how he has to pay double to import plants now, get with the program says i whining won't help make yr little business viable will it you loser.



Should tell him that he doesn’t need to import plants, they just grow out of the ground all by themselves.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (May 16, 2021)

Badgers said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I believe discokermit has already covered this one, middle class outrage at having to pay living wages to tradespeople shocker.


----------



## Badgers (May 16, 2021)

Brexit transfers: Barclays, Goldman Sachs and Morgan Stanley move senior City dealmakers to the EU
					

Investment giants Morgan Stanley, Goldman Sachs and Barclays have started to move a range of senior bankers from their offices in Canary Wharf and the




					www.cityam.com
				






> One element that pushes banks to move some senior dealmakers to Europe is the requirement for client-facing bankers in London or elsewhere outside the EU to have a local ‘chaperone’ whenever they speak to, or interact with, clients. Moving inside the bloc removes that necessity.


----------



## Badgers (May 16, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> I believe discokermit has already covered this one, middle class outrage at having to pay living wages to tradespeople shocker.


There is no pay rises here, just an increase on material costs.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 16, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Brexit transfers: Barclays, Goldman Sachs and Morgan Stanley move senior City dealmakers to the EU
> 
> 
> Investment giants Morgan Stanley, Goldman Sachs and Barclays have started to move a range of senior bankers from their offices in Canary Wharf and the
> ...


Dozens of junior staff have been called into work to move the bloated bankers from their offices onto the articulated lorries driving them to their new homes. "It's like moving a score of Jabba the Hutts" said one sweating man.


----------



## danski (May 16, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> I believe discokermit has already covered this one, middle class outrage at having to pay living wages to tradespeople shocker.


There is a shortage of materials. We have houses waiting for roof tiles and various other things have been affected.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (May 16, 2021)

danski said:


> There is a shortage of materials. We have houses waiting for roof tiles and various other things have been affected.



According to Frau Bahn’s mum’s builder that is down to Suez. The shortage of EU builders is down to Brexit (and Covid) making it harder to come to the U.K. thereby pushing up the costs of employing tradespeople. Everyone I personally know who works in trades are turning down work in favour of more lucrative jobs. It’s a pain fit those who want a crappy job done on the cheap, but I don’t see it as anything other than positive.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 16, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> According to Frau Bahn’s mum’s builder that is down to Suez. The shortage of EU builders is down to Brexit (and Covid) making it harder to come to the U.K. thereby pushing up the costs of employing tradespeople. Everyone I personally know who works in trades are turning down work in favour of more lucrative jobs. It’s a pain fit those who want a crappy job done in the cheap, but I don’t see it as anything other than positive.


Now they can get a crappy job done dear I see

Some years back there was a great development in dalston, fuck loads of flats a new library and public space. Those flats weren't expected by the constructors to last 30 years. You read of new builds which have more faults than window panes. Obvs nab. But when everyone involved in many construction projects knows the properties aren't expected to live much longer than a cossetted cat, where many of the materials have been chosen for their cost rather than their quality, where's the incentive to do a grand job?


----------



## Dogsauce (May 16, 2021)

We can’t even get builders to do stuff we need doing until the Autumn, possibly not until next year. I suspect that will mean having to pay a lot more as prices rise to meet demand and we might not be able to afford to do everything we want.

a lot of this is Covid rather than Brexit, people wanting home alterations to create offices for home working, people sat at home coming up with ideas of things they could do, things that couldn’t be done over the last year all wanting to be done now. Shitty timing for us basically.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (May 16, 2021)

Dogsauce said:


> We can’t even get builders to do stuff we need doing until the Autumn, possibly not until next year. I suspect that will mean having to pay a lot more as prices rise to meet demand and we might not be able to afford to do everything we want.
> 
> a lot of this is Covid rather than Brexit, people wanting home alterations to create offices for home working, people sat at home coming up with ideas of things they could do, things that couldn’t be done over the last year all wanting to be done now. Shitty timing for us basically.



Plus having more money spare as two years with no holidays and so on.


----------



## TopCat (May 16, 2021)

Site pay rates are going up. Significantly.


----------



## bimble (May 16, 2021)

Dogsauce said:


> We can’t even get builders to do stuff we need doing until the Autumn, possibly not until next year. I suspect that will mean having to pay a lot more as prices rise to meet demand and we might not be able to afford to do everything we want.
> 
> a lot of this is Covid rather than Brexit, people wanting home alterations to create offices for home working, people sat at home coming up with ideas of things they could do, things that couldn’t be done over the last year all wanting to be done now. Shitty timing for us basically.


Yep i think its mostly covid. People have been buying houses like its loo roll, and those that can't move are doing Stuff to the houses they're already in. I think that'll continue for at least a year or two as the covid-related divorces get processed and even more people move house.


----------



## danski (May 16, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> According to Frau Bahn’s mum’s builder that is down to Suez. The shortage of EU builders is down to Brexit (and Covid) making it harder to come to the U.K. thereby pushing up the costs of employing tradespeople. Everyone I personally know who works in trades are turning down work in favour of more lucrative jobs. It’s a pain fit those who want a crappy job done on the cheap, but I don’t see it as anything other than positive.


Yes. 
There is a shortage of materials though.


----------



## sleaterkinney (May 16, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> The U.K. has left the EU, for better or worse. The U.K. will not be rejoining anytime soon, certainly not within most of our lifetimes. So we need to face up to that and learn to deal with it. Endless whinging about this or that inconvenience will not change the situation, so better to face reality and learn how the now order works.


It’s not whinging, it’s pointing out what a stupid idea it was and how it doesn’t match up with the promises made.


----------



## two sheds (May 16, 2021)

Take the point about builders' wages going up being a generally good thing. Not only the middle classes who will be affected though. I can afford the increases, a lot of nurses and key workers (for example) whose wages haven't kept pace won't be able to.


----------



## MickiQ (May 16, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Brexit transfers: Barclays, Goldman Sachs and Morgan Stanley move senior City dealmakers to the EU
> 
> 
> Investment giants Morgan Stanley, Goldman Sachs and Barclays have started to move a range of senior bankers from their offices in Canary Wharf and the
> ...


I don't think many tears are going to get shed over these arseholes going but most of the staff a bit lower down the tree won't move with them. They will just get fired and replaced by local hires in the countries their former bosses have moved to.


----------



## MickiQ (May 16, 2021)

bimble said:


> Yep i think its mostly covid. People have been buying houses like its loo roll, and those that can't move are doing Stuff to the houses they're already in. I think that'll continue for at least a year or two as the covid-related divorces get processed and even more people move house.


I expect the main consequence of that is going to be a demand for rented properties and thus upward pressure on rents. It pretty much needs 2 wages to buy these days


----------



## Badgers (May 16, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> I expect the main consequence of that is going to be a demand for rented properties and thus upward pressure on rents. It pretty much needs 2 wages to buy these days


I would say three wages or more


----------



## bimble (May 16, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> I expect the main consequence of that is going to be a demand for rented properties and thus upward pressure on rents. It pretty much needs 2 wages to buy these days


Yep maybe. I think one of the things that's going on at the moment & will continue is a massive increase in inequality, between those who saved loads during the past year due to keeping their same pay & not going on holiday / eating out etc and those who basically lost everything.


----------



## The39thStep (May 16, 2021)

ska invita said:


> So is that stuff about going to the Hotel D'Ville a lie?


A friend of mine here has a mate coming over on Monday to stay. She says the only requirements are a negative PCT test 72 hours before landing here. On return he has to do the same before embarking and have a test in the the UK on the second day. Spoke to some Portuguese who work in the hotels and one of them was back last week the others this week. They said they expect a trickle rather than a flood of tourists from the UK mainly due to the costs of tests .


----------



## MickiQ (May 16, 2021)

Badgers said:


> I would say three wages or more


Two decent full time jobs are still enough in most places  I would say, When Mrs Q and I bought our first house we bought it entirely based on my salary. We never doubted we wanted a family and we wanted to be a position where she had the option of being a full time mum if she wanted.
That was a very common attitude back in the 80's I suspect a lot of young couples these days will face much harder choices.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 16, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> Two decent full time jobs are still enough in most places  I would say, When Mrs Q and I bought our first house we bought it entirely based on my salary. We never doubted we wanted a family and we wanted to be a position where she had the option of being a full time mum if she wanted.
> That was a very common attitude back in the 80's I suspect a lot of young couples these days will face much harder choices.


Decent jobs - what, its social worth? Or do we now measure the decency of a job by its wages, in which case the people most of us consider most despicable are to my surprise the most decent?


----------



## MickiQ (May 16, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Decent jobs - what, its social worth? Or do we now measure the decency of a job by its wages, in which case the people most of us consider most despicable are to my surprise the most decent?


If you can persuade a building society to accept payment in "social worth" that's great let us know how you go on


----------



## Pickman's model (May 16, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> If you can persuade a building society to accept payment in "social worth" that's great let us know how you go on


So you mean two indecent full time jobs are still enough in most places


----------



## MickiQ (May 16, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> So you mean two indecent full time jobs are still enough in most places


You have this strange habit of trying to pick pointless arguments, would you like to debate how many angels can dance on the head of a pin? you know full well in what context I have used the word 'decent' to designate a wage that pays sufficient to meet housing costs whilst still leaving enough money to spend on other trivia like food and clothing.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 16, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> You have this strange habit of trying to pick pointless arguments, would you like to debate how many angels can dance on the head of a pin? you know full well in what context I have used the word 'decent' to designate a wage that pays sufficient to meet housing costs whilst still leaving enough money to spend on other trivia like food and clothing.


But you've just said one 'decent' job not enough. If you can't keep yourself consistent from one post to the next perhaps you should take a good hard look at the point you're trying to make and reconsider if it is worth stating.


----------



## Artaxerxes (May 16, 2021)




----------



## Pickman's model (May 16, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


>



is there there is no end to the shitty deal the governments served up, which if it was a feb would be back with the chef instanter


----------



## Badgers (May 16, 2021)

My heart bleeds for the Torygraph readers... 



> Dreams of retiring to sunnier climes have been dashed for many following Britain’s exit from the European Union. Bureaucratic complications, combined with the pandemic, have forced retirees to reconsider their plans, amid worries about losing state pension rights and access to healthcare....











						Why the expat retirement dream could be gone forever
					

Sun-seeking pensioners no longer have the same rights following Brexit




					www.telegraph.co.uk


----------



## pseudonarcissus (May 16, 2021)

Badgers said:


> My heart bleeds for the Torygraph readers...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I had a read of that....I'm not sure they are taking about "natural torygraph readers", it seems to quote people that were not planning to engage a lawyer to deal with the bureaucracy, and were planning to be largely reliant on their state pensions. 

It's only ordinary folk folk that seem to be affected, the rich will be fine.


----------



## Yossarian (May 16, 2021)

bimble said:


> Yep i think its mostly covid. People have been buying houses like its loo roll, and those that can't move are doing Stuff to the houses they're already in. I think that'll continue for at least a year or two as the covid-related divorces get processed and even more people move house.



Yep, the UK definitely isn't the only place where tradespeople have all the work they can handle - same thing is playing out in a lot of countries, some of which had been crying out for more tradespeople long before the pandemic. Australia etc. are probably going to redouble their efforts to attract skilled British workers once people can move around freely again.

It's obviously a good thing when wages are going up and workers are getting more power, but Britain might be one of the countries where those gains are shortest-lived following the pandemic - I wouldn't be surprised if the Johnson government rubber-stamped every single application it got from a company asking to bring in temporary workers from India or the Philippines or wherever because it couldn't find people who would work for what it was willing to pay.


----------



## existentialist (May 16, 2021)

I think I may owe our Brexiteer friends a genuine vote of thanks. A million years ago, I agreed to help the ex get moved in when she bought her house in France - she's looking to move in in July. Because of how she's been, and my hardening attitude towards her antics, I am giving serious thought to breaking that promise.

But, thanks to Brexit, if I am to go out there, there are many forms to fill in and hoops to jump through, particularly as she has not yet completed on the place she's buying, so cannot provide proof of address, a necessary part for the "_attestation_". If, as seems possible, there's no way around that, then that's a dealbreaker right there.

Plus, with Covid, and France being on the "amber" list, I would have to quarantine for ten days on my return, and that's just not going to be happening - I am now working f2f again, part of the time, and I'm not prepared to take another 10 days away from work on her account.

So, thanks, Brexiteers! . Our economy may well be fucked as a result, and all the other delightful consequences of our act of national self-harm, but at least it looks like I'm going to have a plausible "somebody else's fault" excuse for backing out. The only possible downside was that I'd planned to tell her that I'm going for an indefinite "clean break", once I'd honoured my promise to help; I'll just have to do that by email or Zoom instead, now


----------



## bimble (May 16, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> Yep, the UK definitely isn't the only place where tradespeople have all the work they can handle - same thing is playing out in a lot of countries, some of which had been crying out for more tradespeople long before the pandemic. Australia etc. are probably going to redouble their efforts to attract skilled British workers once people can move around freely again.
> 
> It's obviously a good thing when wages are going up and workers are getting more power, but Britain might be one of the countries where those gains are shortest-lived following the pandemic - I wouldn't be surprised if the Johnson government rubber-stamped every single application it got from a company asking to bring in temporary workers from India or the Philippines or wherever because it couldn't find people who would work for what it was willing to pay.


Definitely, and the exemption lists or whatver its called, the thing they're doing to get fruit & veg pickers this Summer and so on, those will grow and grow i reckon, to include plumbers au pairs baristas whatever.


----------



## StoneRoad (May 16, 2021)

Something like 18 months ago, I ordered some French linen for a specific job. [Having tried a couple of other fabrics and methods which just didn't work]. It was delivered promptly and with the minimum of fuss and paperwork.

Using this Linen was successful, thankfully, if more expensive than the non-working alternatives and the time wasted wasn't significant or even visible to the client.

Therefore, when doing something similar earlier this year we ordered some more linen, to go with the small amount left over from the first job. We had worked out how much was needed and gave ourselves plenty of time by ordering early. 
However, what was supplied was insufficient, mainly because it was too narrow or too short to get the sizes/shapes required. 
So, we ordered yet more fabric (with an allowance for the same factors "just in case").

The first amount delivered this year came within the supplier's "normal" timescale, and 'within the same period' was  promised for the extra order.
However, we are still waiting, and now it is more than six weeks overdue.
Apparently, getting it exported needs WXYZ from the maker and getting it imported needs PQR for UK Customs ...
So, round and round goes the paperwork chase, and we are twiddling our thumbs, and our client is getting steadily more annoyed.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (May 16, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> Yep, the UK definitely isn't the only place where tradespeople have all the work they can handle - same thing is playing out in a lot of countries, some of which had been crying out for more tradespeople long before the pandemic. Australia etc. are probably going to redouble their efforts to attract skilled British workers once people can move around freely again.
> 
> It's obviously a good thing when wages are going up and workers are getting more power, but Britain might be one of the countries where those gains are shortest-lived following the pandemic - I wouldn't be surprised if the Johnson government rubber-stamped every single application it got from a company asking to bring in temporary workers from India or the Philippines or wherever because it couldn't find people who would work for what it was willing to pay.




It's down to that cunt Blair and his 50% going to uni bollocks. 

Get un-academic kids to learn a trade and they'll make a nice living.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (May 16, 2021)

Badgers said:


> My heart bleeds for the Torygraph readers...
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Ffs, applying for a visa = dream gone.


----------



## two sheds (May 16, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> It's down to that cunt Blair and his 50% going to uni bollocks.
> 
> Get un-academic kids to learn a trade and they'll make a nice living.


Whenever anyone young asks me what they should do in the future (happens all the time and when it doesn't I tell them anyway). "Get a ticket, young person, get a ticket"


----------



## Pickman's model (May 16, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> It's down to that cunt Blair and his 50% going to uni bollocks.
> 
> Get un-academic kids to learn a trade and they'll make a nice living.


Not to mention that cunt brown who doubled my tax from 10 to 20% and imposed the public sector pay freeze Osborne etc carried on


----------



## Pickman's model (May 16, 2021)

bimble said:


> Definitely, and the exemption lists or whatver its called, the thing they're doing to get fruit & veg pickers this Summer and so on, those will grow and grow i reckon, to include plumbers au pairs baristas whatever.


Don't think there'll be many coming from Europe this summer, what with the quarantine and variants and that.


----------



## ska invita (May 16, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> It's down to that cunt Blair and his 50% going to uni bollocks.
> 
> Get un-academic kids to learn a trade and they'll make a nice living.



Opening up access to universities was a great thing
No one is forced to go to university, the opportunity should be there for everyone

The Tories are successfully closing the door to broad access to university education and trying to return it to something for the rich/compliant productive workers only, so hooray for that


----------



## ska invita (May 16, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Ffs, applying for a visa = dream gone.


its not just a visa you need shit tons of money


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (May 16, 2021)

ska invita said:


> ska invita said:
> 
> 
> > its not just a visa you need shit tons of money




(((people with second homes in Spain)))


----------



## ska invita (May 16, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> (((people with second homes in Spain)))


i dont know what you are talking about
isnt the topic about people retiring to Spain/the continent?
that isnt possible anymore unless you can prove income of huge amounts per year - 20 odd k a year for spain IIRC , (significantly less for Portugal according to 39th step, around £8k i think)


----------



## existentialist (May 16, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Ffs, applying for a visa = dream gone.


The ex worked very hard to get out there before the Brexit door slammed. She's done pretty well - got her residence permit, is registered for tax, in the process of re-registering the car on French plates, etc. But the true mayhem of a post-Brexit life in France is only just dawning on her, and I think it's come as a bit of a shock: she's going to need to do all kinds of paperwork whenever any family come to stay,, and I am sure that we haven't seen it fully unfold in all its glory yet.

I think that, should we ever rejoin Europe, we should agree to do a brief (say, 3 month) Brexit every 5 years or so, just so that people who might have taken for granted all the conveniences that EU membership provided get a regular reminder of the downsides of leaving...


----------



## editor (May 16, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> (((people with second homes in Spain)))


Except it's about elderly people who have retired to Spain.


----------



## bimble (May 16, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Don't think there'll be many coming from Europe this summer, what with the quarantine and variants and that.


looks like, if they still want to come, seasonal workers can get straight to work on the farm if staying in farm accommodation so thats generous. 








						[Withdrawn] Coming to England for seasonal agricultural, horticultural work or pork processing
					

Advice for seasonal agricultural, horticultural workers and pork butchers coming to England to work on farms or processing sites or at slaughterhouses, and their employers.




					www.gov.uk


----------



## existentialist (May 16, 2021)

bimble said:


> looks like, if they still want to come, seasonal workers can get straight to work on the farm if staying in farm accommodation so thats generous.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The phrase "cherrypicking" comes to mind, and I'm not thinking about what the seasonal agricultural workers will be doing...


----------



## two sheds (May 16, 2021)

won't be doing ...


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (May 16, 2021)

editor said:


> Except it's about elderly people who have retired to Spain.



Who have had five years to apply for residency.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 16, 2021)

bimble said:


> looks like, if they still want to come, seasonal workers can get straight to work on the farm if staying in farm accommodation so thats generous.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Must be in groups of six kept strictly separate
Must quarantine if not staying on farm
And of course the traditional British welcome will be offered to all foreigners coming to work in the uk

I don't think too many will be coming here this year and I have none of your confidence in baristas or au pairs arriving in droves


----------



## existentialist (May 16, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Who have had five years to apply for residency.


I guess a lot of those simply had no clue - having enjoyed 50 years of free movement - that they might have to jump through some hoops to regularise their position. But there have also been English immigrants to Spain who clearly thought that regularising their position, even pre-Brexit, was something for other people to do.

It is good that these people have been generous enough to provide us with such liberal helpings of _schadenfreude_ (I guess we're going to need a new word for this concept, now we're all British and that).


----------



## Pickman's model (May 16, 2021)

existentialist said:


> I guess a lot of those simply had no clue - having enjoyed 50 years of free movement - that they might have to jump through some hoops to regularise their position. But there have also been English immigrants to Spain who clearly thought that regularising their position, even pre-Brexit, was something for other people to do.
> 
> It is good that these people have been generous enough to provide us with such liberal helpings of _schadenfreude_ (I guess we're going to need a new word for this concept, now we're all British and that).


We should all learn other German words now


----------



## ska invita (May 16, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Who have had five years to apply for residency.


yes theyve only got themselves to blame.

but the new reality is from now on the retire to spain thing is only available to those swimming in money.


----------



## existentialist (May 16, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> We should all learn other German words now


"Weltschmerz"


----------



## editor (May 16, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Who have had five years to apply for residency.


And it's all been made crystal clear to the, eh?



> Britons in Europe are being denied access to bank accounts, jobs, healthcare and university places due to post-Brexit red tape - even though access to those services is guaranteed under the withdrawal agreement.
> 
> Those living in Spain, Italy and France say they have been hit by new rules which are poorly understood by local officials who are now demanding they produce documents which are difficult or impossible for them to obtain.
> 
> ...





> The source added that many Britons are also experiencing problems at the UK border while trying to depart for Spain because British guards do not recognise the new residency applications and are refusing to accept them as proof.
> 
> Last week, a group of Spanish officials in Alicante airport turned 40 British expats around and sent them home because of the same issue.
> 
> ...



(*from the Mail so no link included)


----------



## Pickman's model (May 16, 2021)

existentialist said:


> "Weltschmerz"


I was thinking along the lines of zwei bier bitte, entschuldigung, habst du feuer, wer ist Boris Johnson, hande hoch herr Johnson etc. As the genuine power differentials between Germany and the UK become apparent


----------



## existentialist (May 16, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> I was thinking along the lines of zwei bier bitte, entschuldigung, habst du feuer, wer ist Boris Johnson, hande hoch herr Johnson etc. As the genuine power differentials between Germany and the UK become apparent


I think, should that eventuality arise, I'll just learn a bunch of Schopenhauer and Nietzsche quotes in German, and go with those...


----------



## Pickman's model (May 16, 2021)

existentialist said:


> I think, should that eventuality arise, I'll just learn a bunch of Schopenhauer and Nietzsche quotes in German, and go with those...


And maybe a bit of Russian, davai davai, yob t'voy madj etc


----------



## Artaxerxes (May 16, 2021)

editor said:


> Except it's about elderly people who have retired to Spain.



When you retire from now on your only allowed to retire to Margate.


----------



## existentialist (May 16, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> When you retire from now on your only allowed to retire to Margate.


Retire? I think that's going to be the next thing that's for the chop...

Unless, of course, you are filthy rich.


----------



## Artaxerxes (May 16, 2021)

existentialist said:


> Retire? I think that's going to be the next thing that's for the chop...
> 
> Unless, of course, you are filthy rich.



Yep


----------



## Supine (May 16, 2021)

Supermarkets face post-Brexit fruit and veg scarcity due to shortage of pickers
					

Government's failure to allow in enough EU workers and new rules limiting visas for seasonal pickers are expected to leave tonnes of crops to rot while shelves lie empty




					www.mirror.co.uk


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (May 16, 2021)

ska invita said:


> yes theyve only got themselves to blame.
> 
> but the new reality is from now on the retire to spain thing is only available to those swimming in money.



(((Breadline bods retiring to Spain)))


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (May 16, 2021)

editor said:


> And it's all been made crystal clear to the, eh?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



My step-mum who has lived in the U.K. for >30 years called me a few days after the vote. After calling her a cunt and shouting that she should fuck off from whence she came I advised her that the U.K. was leaving the EU and that at some point she would need to apply for U.K. residency, an online form and about £120. The sky didn’t fall in for her.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 16, 2021)

editor said:


> And it's all been made crystal clear to the, eh?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


one broken link for the curious https://w   ww.   daily   mail   .co.   uk/news/article-9440843/British-expats-denied-basic-services-Europe-post-Brexit-red-tape.html


----------



## editor (May 16, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> My step-mum who has lived in the U.K. for >30 years called me a few days after the vote. After calling her a cunt and shouting that she should fuck off from whence she came I advised her that the U.K. was leaving the EU and that at some point she would need to apply for U.K. residency, an online form and about £120. The sky didn’t fall in for her.


Thank heavens for your one-size-fits-all personal anecdotes!


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (May 16, 2021)

editor said:


> Thank heavens for your one-size-fits-all personal anecdotes!


Yeah, real world examples of how things are should always be discounted in favour of theoretical righteous anger.


----------



## editor (May 16, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Yeah, real world examples of how things are should always be discounted in favour of righteous anger.


Yeah, the well documented problems people are suffering through Brexit are always trumped by your handy selection of unverifiable personal anecdotes.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (May 16, 2021)

editor said:


> Yeah, the well documented problems people are suffering through Brexit are always trumped by your handy selection of unverifiable personal anecdotes.



How would you like me to verify scary Mary’s journey?

fwiw it was 30 minutes on the phone and a card payment. Pretty much every other documented resident has faced the same. Those that didn’t are fawned over by the same pricks that laugh at U.K. citizens that fucked up the same process in Spain, deriding them as ‘gammons’.


----------



## editor (May 16, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> How would you like me to verify scary Mary’s journey?
> 
> fwiw it was 30 minutes on the phone and a card payment. Pretty much every other documented resident has faced the same. Those that didn’t are fawned over by the same pricks that laugh at U.K. citizens that fucked up the same process in Spain, deriding them as ‘gammons’.


No I'd rather you stop reducing every thing to down to your own personal, point-proving anecdotes and using them to trump or silence comments on the very real problems a vastly greater number of people are experiencing daily because of Brexit.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (May 16, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Opening up access to universities was a great thing
> No one is forced to go to university



Nurses are, they weren’t when we were young. There’s even talk of filth needing a degree in future. All this is down to that war criminal Blair.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (May 16, 2021)

editor said:


> No I'd rather you stop reducing every thing to down to your own personal, point-proving anecdotes and using them to trump or silence comments on the very real problems a vastly greater number of people are experiencing daily because of Brexit.



OK. Stop blathering on about your poxy band then.
Deal?


----------



## editor (May 16, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> OK. Stop blathering on about your poxy band then.
> Deal?


When was the last time I mentioned my 'poxy band' in this thread?


----------



## Artaxerxes (May 16, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Opening up access to universities was a great thing
> No one is forced to go to university, the opportunity should be there for everyone
> 
> The Tories are successfully closing the door to broad access to university education and trying to return it to something for the rich/compliant productive workers only, so hooray for that



Tution fees started under Blair. He pushed for 50% even while making it exclusive.

Even the open uni charges a mint for degrees now.


----------



## Elpenor (May 16, 2021)

If you’re charging for Uni, it makes business sense to get as many people to pay for it as possible so you have more money to spend on illegal wars


----------



## Supine (May 16, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Nurses are, they weren’t when we were young. There’s even talk of filth needing a degree in future. All this is down to that war criminal Blair.



Vocal brexiteer is anti-education. What a surprise.


----------



## Jay Park (May 16, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> (((Breadline bods retiring to Spain)))



cos heaven forbid


----------



## Dystopiary (May 17, 2021)

For some people - some of the most disadvantaged in the UK - the idea of being able to get out of here and live somewhere else with little or no money was a bit of hope. That when trying to jump through hoops of fire to get a pittance off the state to live off became too much, or when the government decided to make it even harder to claim disability benefits, that rather than starve to death they could get out, try their luck at the mercy of the EU. People who can't work.

No chance of that now. Hardly a middle-class bougeois stance. 

Waiting for someone who doesn't have to worry about this to come and pick holes in that argument.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (May 17, 2021)

editor said:


> When was the last time I mentioned my 'poxy band' in this thread?



30th April, post 1537.


----------



## Jay Park (May 17, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> 30th April, post 1537.



I happen to find creativity in people to be an admirable trait. Whilst we're on the topic of mentioning stuff we might be proud of, when was the last time you mentioned a certain German car manufacturer? Let's check









						Search results for query: Audi
					






					www.urban75.net


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (May 17, 2021)

Dystopiary said:


> For some people - some of the most disadvantaged in the UK - the idea of being able to get out of here and live somewhere else with little or no money was a bit of hope. That when trying to jump through hoops of fire to get a pittance off the state to live off became too much, or when the government decided to make it even harder to claim disability benefits, that rather than starve to death they could get out, try their luck at the mercy of the EU. People who can't work.
> 
> No chance of that now. Hardly a middle-class bougeois stance.
> 
> Waiting for someone who doesn't have to worry about this to come and pick holes in that argument.



Could you please explain your point? Are you suggesting that some people reliant on disability state benefits saw the United Kingdom being a member of the European Union as some kind of hope?


----------



## Jay Park (May 17, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Could you please explain your point? Are you suggesting that some people reliant on disability state benefits saw the United Kingdom being a member of the European Union as some kind of hope?



a certain increase in the quality of life, definitely.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (May 17, 2021)

Jay Park said:


> I happen to find creativity in people to be an admirable trait. Whilst we're on the topic of mentioning stuff we might be proud of, when was the last time you mentioned a certain German car manufacturer? Let's check
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You were permanently banned for precisely this kind of creepy shit, somehow you have wormed your way back on and are doing the same shit. I un-ignored you after your supposed perma-ban and here you are again. No wonder people don’t bother with this site any more.


----------



## Jay Park (May 17, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> You were permanently banned for precisely this kind of creepy shit, somehow you have wormed your way back on and are doing the same shit. I un-ignored you after your supposed perma-ban and here you are again. No wonder people don’t bother with this site any more:



I think it's a little more nuanced than that, if indeed 'people don't bother with this site anymore'.

So you're saying that every Brit out there in the sun of Southern Europe, or anywhere else for that matter, were all benifit claiming, undeserving poor? Is that your stance? Just to clarify


----------



## seeformiles (May 17, 2021)

.


----------



## seeformiles (May 17, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> My step-mum who has lived in the U.K. for >30 years called me a few days after the vote. After calling her a cunt and shouting that she should fuck off from whence she came I advised her that the U.K. was leaving the EU and that at some point she would need to apply for U.K. residency, an online form and about £120. The sky didn’t fall in for her.



My Ma (with over 50 years living in the UK) had a somewhat different experience and was told by the Home Office it was far from certain that her application would succeed and kept her on tenterhooks for months. She was getting seriously worried about being deported and was making contingency plans to move in with her sister in Nuremberg. Not something the HO should have done to a woman of nearly 80.


----------



## Flavour (May 17, 2021)

Dystopiary said:


> For some people - some of the most disadvantaged in the UK - the idea of being able to get out of here and live somewhere else with little or no money was a bit of hope. That when trying to jump through hoops of fire to get a pittance off the state to live off became too much, or when the government decided to make it even harder to claim disability benefits, that rather than starve to death they could get out, try their luck at the mercy of the EU. People who can't work.
> 
> No chance of that now. Hardly a middle-class bougeois stance.
> 
> Waiting for someone who doesn't have to worry about this to come and pick holes in that argument.



The average age and net worth of UK citizens residing in the EU are, i am quite sure, significanty higher than the UK average. There are some younger, poorer UK citizens in the EU but they are generally only to be found in a handful of cities (Berlin and Barcelona and Amsterdam above all), and in my experience they generally come from bigger cities in the UK to begin with.

There are almost no working class UK citizens from small post-industrial Northern towns making a decent living in the Ruhr Valley, much as Auf Wiedershein Pet might have wanted to make that seem like a real thing


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (May 17, 2021)

seeformiles said:


> My Ma (with over 50 years living in the UK) had a somewhat different experience and was told by the Home Office it was far from certain that her application would succeed and kept her on tenterhooks for months. She was getting seriously worried about being deported and was making contingency plans to move in with her sister in Nuremberg. Not something the HO should have done to a woman of nearly 80.



That the Home Office headed by Patel are cunts is no great shock. My step mum didn’t have to deal with them more than an online form and some money which seems the easiest route to take.


----------



## seeformiles (May 17, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> That the Home Office headed by Patel are cunts is no great shock. My step mum didn’t have to deal with them more than an online form and some money which seems the easiest route to take.



Ah - my Ma’s nearly blind so took the letter/phone route to be sure. Probably explains it.


----------



## Spymaster (May 17, 2021)

seeformiles said:


> My Ma (with over 50 years living in the UK) had a somewhat different experience and was told by the Home Office it was far from certain that her application would succeed and kept her on tenterhooks for months. She was getting seriously worried about being deported and was making contingency plans to move in with her sister in Nuremberg. Not something the HO should have done to a woman of nearly 80.


I’d be interested in details of this and why she was told that. In every other case that I’m aware of, getting pre-settled and settled status for long term residents has been little more than a formality. What reason did they give for telling her that?


----------



## Artaxerxes (May 17, 2021)

Flavour said:


> The average age and net worth of UK citizens residing in the EU are, i am quite sure, significanty higher than the UK average. There are some younger, poorer UK citizens in the EU but they are generally only to be found in a handful of cities (Berlin and Barcelona and Amsterdam above all), and in my experience they generally come from bigger cities in the UK to begin with.
> 
> There are almost no working class UK citizens from small post-industrial Northern towns making a decent living in the Ruhr Valley, much as Auf Wiedershein Pet might have wanted to make that seem like a real thing



From ONS 2011 


Country of residenceTotalUnder 15 years15 to 29 years30 to 49 years50 to 64 years65 years and overAll EU members890,29983,58990,044280,042247,501189,105Spain308,80525,62524,20564,45093,475101,045France157,06220,67414,97642,54348,72730,141Ireland112,09011,09117,54944,99424,16614,290Germany96,2006,08012,10036,54029,48012,020


This sadly doesn't look at income or origins or take into account seasonal or temporary workers - likely lads/lasses who go abroad to work the cruises and resorts in summer. That 30-49 age bracket is interesting and suggests a fair few professional workers aside from Spain which is retired fucker central.  

Afaik some of the problems with getting these figures are that the UK hasn't bothered checking exit stats or figures for several decades.

I'm seeing what I can find to get figures but the sites I can find are big on rhetoric short on facts.

e.g. 



> In our UK in a Changing Europe funded research talking Brexit, freedom of movement and citizenship with UK citizens living in the EU27, we have actively sought to ensure that the research addresses the diversity of age within this population. Testament to this is that 67% of our citizens’ panel—an element of the research that includes UK citizens living across the EU27—are between 20 and 60; in France and Spain, where we have been conducting interviews, recruitment has similarly succeeded in bringing students, young people raised in these countries, those migrating in pursuit of careers and relationships, into the frame. Our conversations with these populations highlight what freedom of movement—a central pillar of European integration—has meant for their lives, and the limits current agreements about citizens’ rights place on their ability to live their lives unchanged.



or the site


----------



## Spymaster (May 17, 2021)

Dystopiary said:


> For some people - some of the most disadvantaged in the UK - the idea of being able to get out of here and live somewhere else with little or no money was a bit of hope. That when trying to jump through hoops of fire to get a pittance off the state to live off became too much, or when the government decided to make it even harder to claim disability benefits, that rather than starve to death they could get out, try their luck at the mercy of the EU. People who can't work.
> 
> No chance of that now. Hardly a middle-class bougeois stance.
> 
> Waiting for someone who doesn't have to worry about this to come and pick holes in that argument.


Where exactly in the EU were all these poor, working class people planning to live with little or no money?


----------



## Artaxerxes (May 17, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Where exactly in the EU were all these poor, working class people planning to live with little or no money?



Living off the land, 100%


----------



## bimble (May 17, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Where exactly in the EU were all these poor, working class people planning to live with little or no money?


There are large static caravan / bungalow parks on the south coast. I know one scouser in his early 60s who has one & was planning to move permanently into his, with his mrs, i don't know what they're doing now maybe they did it already. He is.. not posh but plan was to sell their terraced house in l'pool & use that to live off so they did have that. Not in good health tho.


----------



## The39thStep (May 17, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Where exactly in the EU were all these poor, working class people planning to live with little or no money?


and no housing benefit


----------



## Spymaster (May 17, 2021)

bimble said:


> There are large static caravan / bungalow parks on the south coast.



The south coast of where?


----------



## bimble (May 17, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> The south coast of where?


spain, thats where his is anyway. i'm curious now will find out what he's up to.


----------



## Flavour (May 17, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> This sadly doesn't look at income or origins or take into account seasonal or temporary workers - likely lads/lasses who go abroad to work the cruises and resorts in summer. That 30-49 age bracket is interesting and suggests a fair few professional workers aside from Spain which is retired fucker central.


Thanks Artaxerxes that is quite interesting, albeit 10 year old data.

It would be interesting to see for example in France and Germany where exactly in the country those people are based. I'd imagine that the younger people in France tend to be more concentrated in the big cities (particularly Paris) while that older segment of retirees more likely to be in the countryside, and particularly the countryside in the South. 

In Germany, unlike France/Italy/Spain there is zero culture of Brits going to retire there as it's just as expensive as the UK and the weather isn't as reliably better, so I'd imagine there's an even greater concentration in cities. Also a more concrete UK link to Germany via all the army brats born there who may have stayed there but retained UK citizenship -- there are several people on urban with connections to Germany for this very reason.

As for Ireland, without wishing to be dismissive, the data is not as relevant to this discussion as UK citizens retain the right to and work in Ireland (though as we can see, very very few people exercise this right)


----------



## Spymaster (May 17, 2021)

bimble said:


> spain, thats where his is anyway. i'm curious now will find out what he's up to.



Right. That's how most people have done it. They sell property and use those funds to live. Hardly poor people decamping to the EU utopia with nothing, and being welcomed with open arms.


----------



## The39thStep (May 17, 2021)

bimble said:


> There are large static caravan / bungalow parks on the south coast. I know one scouser in his early 60s who has one & was planning to move permanently into his, with his mrs, i don't know what they're doing now maybe they did it already. He is.. not posh but plan was to sell their terraced house in l'pool & use that to live off so they did have that. Not in good health tho.


So he owns a house in Liverpool and a static home somewhere on the south coast of Spain?


----------



## bimble (May 17, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> So he owns a house in Liverpool and a static home somewhere on the south coast of Spain?


yes. He must be loaded! I'm not up for a fight but the man's been working in his brother (my friend)'s tiny 2ndhand bookshop for years, for tea and a few quid. Was a builder before getting ill, wife a retired nurse. Absolutely loaded obvs, and if he doesnt get to move to his caravan in the sun fuck him etc. 
I think tbh the main thing for people like them would be the healthcare issue, if they could still get free medical over there (i dont know what's happening with that) i imagine they've done the application and moved and if not not.


----------



## seeformiles (May 17, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> I’d be interested in details of this and why she was told that. In every other case that I’m aware of, getting pre-settled and settled status for long term residents has been little more than a formality. What reason did they give for telling her that?



I think it was just bad bureaucracy. She kept calling them for confirmation but was told her case was still being considered and that there was a backlog of younger more economically active cases to process (she still works part time) - but no assurances that her case was likely to be a problem or a foregone conclusion. She was especially worried as she’s the principal carer for my younger brother who has serious health problems.  Shitty behaviour anyway.


----------



## Spymaster (May 17, 2021)

bimble said:


> yes. He must be loaded! I'm not up for a fight but the man's been working in his brother (my friend)'s tiny 2ndhand bookshop for years, for tea and a few quid. Was a builder before getting ill, wife a retired nurse. Absolutely loaded obvs, and if he doesnt get to move to his caravan in the sun fuck him etc.
> I think tbh the main thing for people like them would be the healthcare issue, if they could still get free medical over there (i dont know what's happening with that) i imagine they've done the application and moved and if not not.


Still not sure I'd consider a bloke who owns two properties to be 'one of the most disadvantaged in the UK'.


----------



## bimble (May 17, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Still not sure I'd consider a bloke who owns two properties to be 'one of the most disadvantaged in the UK'.


yeah, i did not mean to suggest he is that, he's not obvs. 
I just put him here because the idea its just posh people who have long had the dream of living out their last bit somewhere sunny is wrong. I think the healthcare thing is the main issue, for non-loaded people of that age.


----------



## pseudonarcissus (May 17, 2021)

Flavour said:


> There are almost no working class UK citizens from small post-industrial Northern towns making a decent living in the Ruhr Valley, much as Auf Wiedershein Pet might have wanted to make that seem like a real thing


There used to be back in the 80s and 90s. A lot of the welders I worked with when I was doing my apprenticeship had spent time in Germany. In the 90s I worked on a offshore project with stuff being made at HiFab at Stornaway..as soon as they got a job the skilled trades suddenly appeared back from Europe.
The skilled trades were killed by Thatcher and the end of apprenticeships. The guys that did work in Germany have probably retired to Spain by now and have been replaced by Eastern Europeans.

edited to remove the grocer's apostrophe...and auto correct problem, honest.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (May 17, 2021)

bimble said:


> I think tbh the main thing for people like them would be the healthcare issue, if they could still get free medical over there (i dont know what's happening with that) i imagine they've done the application and moved and if not not.



GHIC cards replace EHIC cards and he'd get treatment in Spain via that.


----------



## The39thStep (May 17, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> GHIC cards replace EHIC cards and he'd get treatment in Spain via that.


and existing EHIC cards are still valid


----------



## Supine (May 17, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Where exactly in the EU were all these poor, working class people planning to live with little or no money?



The cost of living is cheaper in much (all?) of Europe.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (May 17, 2021)

Supine said:


> The cost of living is cheaper in much (all?) of Europe.




Such as Germany, Sweden, Switzerland, Austria, Norway, Finland, Iceland, Holland, Denmark and so on, yeah?


----------



## bimble (May 17, 2021)

that's good, GHIC thing. i hope he's still doing it then. 
Or would you have had to move before January this year to be eligible? 
Looks a bit confusing "you can apply for one if you have rights under the Withdrawal Agreement" etc.


----------



## Supine (May 17, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Such as Germany, Sweden, Switzerland, Austria, Norway, Finland, Iceland, Holland, Denmark and so on, yeah?



Did Switzerland join the EU?

Most brits seem to live in France, Spain and Portugal which definitely are cheaper.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 17, 2021)

Supine said:


> Did Switzerland join the EU?
> 
> Most brits seem to live in France, Spain and Portugal which definitely are cheaper.


you talked of europe and switzerland has never been anywhere else

and contrary to popular opinion most brits live in britain


----------



## The39thStep (May 17, 2021)

bimble said:


> that's good, GHIC thing. i hope he's still doing it then.
> Or would you have had to move before January this year to be eligible?
> Looks a bit confusing "you can apply for one if you have rights under the Withdrawal Agreement" etc.


If he was visiting his second home in Spain before Brexit and as you say not in good health presumably would have already had an EHIC for medical treatment? You have to show that card otherwise you end up with a bill being sent to your UK address


----------



## Pickman's model (May 17, 2021)

Supine said:


> The cost of living is cheaper in much (all?) of Europe.


no, no it isn't: The Most Expensive Countries To Live In 2020: Europeans At The Top With Switzerland First


----------



## pseudonarcissus (May 17, 2021)

bimble said:


> that's good, GHIC thing. i hope he's still doing it then.
> Or would you have had to move before January this year to be eligible?
> Looks a bit confusing "you can apply for one if you have rights under the Withdrawal Agreement" etc.


Yes, you can still get one. And when you do retire to Spain you can get an S1 form from the DHSS (as was) and transfer everything over and get a Spanish EHIC. 
The only impediment is proving you have a retirement income of 21k for you and your spouse.


----------



## The39thStep (May 17, 2021)

Supine said:


> The cost of living is cheaper in much (all?) of Europe.


Generally but here in Portugal utility  bills especially electricity are far higher, so are white goods and cars.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (May 17, 2021)

Supine said:


> Did Switzerland join the EU?
> 
> Most brits seem to live in France, Spain and Portugal which definitely are cheaper.




Neither Switzerland nor Norway are in the EU but they are both very much in Europe.

And the cost of living in France is cheaper than the UK


----------



## The39thStep (May 17, 2021)

pseudonarcissus said:


> Yes, you can still get one. And when you do retire to Spain you can get an S1 form from the DHSS (as was) and transfer everything over and get a Spanish EHIC.
> The only impediment is proving you have a retirement income of 21k for you and your spouse.


Bimble's retiring to Spain now?


----------



## pseudonarcissus (May 17, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Bimble's retiring to Spain now?


We all are, we’re all so well heeled.

I’m actually dreaming of Portugal…the D7 visa seems achievable.


----------



## bimble (May 17, 2021)

pseudonarcissus said:


> Yes, you can still get one. And when you do retire to Spain you can get an S1 form from the DHSS (as was) and transfer everything over and get a Spanish EHIC.
> The only impediment is proving you have a retirement income of 21k for you and your spouse.


You have to show you have 21k a year for how long?


----------



## bimble (May 17, 2021)

i'm retiring to switzerland, where a cup of coffee costs £20 a pop, with a free tiny biscuit on the side. better class of retirees over there.


----------



## Spymaster (May 17, 2021)

Supine said:


> The cost of living is cheaper in much (all?) of Europe.


In some parts of Southern Europe, maybe, but this notion of Dystopiary's that the most disadvantaged Brits could just rock-up there with fuck all and live a better life than they would here is fanciful at best.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 17, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> In some parts of Southern Europe, maybe, but this notion of Dystopiary's that the most disadvantaged Brits could just rock-up there with fuck all and live a better life than they would here is fanciful at best.


especially as so many refuse to learn the local language


----------



## editor (May 17, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> No wonder people don’t bother with this site any more.



Just to correct this statement: the site averages well over one post every minute over every a 24 hour period, with over 200 user interactions every single hour.  It's nowhere near its pre social media peak of course, but it's still one of the busiest independent boards around, with a wonderful community at its heart.


----------



## Spymaster (May 17, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> especially as so many refuse to learn the local language


Well there is that, and whilst many Brits have gone abroad to make other countries their home, work, and contribute to those societies, many others, particularly retirees, are simply leveraging the difference between their wealth and that of local people to create better lifestyles for themselves. Not really the type of folk I'd have thought a bunch of socialists would have too much sympathy for in other circumstances.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 17, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Well there is that, and whilst many Brits have gone abroad to make other countries their home, work, and contribute to those societies, many others, particularly retirees, are simply leveraging the difference between their wealth and that of local people to create better lifestyles for themselves. Not really the type of folk I'd have thought a bunch of socialists would have too much sympathy for in other circumstances.


the times they are a-changin'


----------



## Flavour (May 17, 2021)

Supine said:


> The cost of living is cheaper in much (all?) of Europe.





Supine said:


> Did Switzerland join the EU?
> 
> Most brits seem to live in France, Spain and Portugal which definitely are cheaper.


Very debatable that France is cheaper. The bits which are cheaper are not the desirable bits, anyway. Provence / Cote d'Azur is not cheaper than the UK.


Spymaster said:


> In some parts of Southern Europe, maybe, but this notion of Dystopiary's that the most disadvantaged Brits could just rock-up there with fuck all and live a better life than they would here is fanciful at best.


The Spanish Dream


----------



## Jay Park (May 17, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Such as Germany, Sweden, Switzerland, Austria, Norway, Finland, Iceland, Holland, Denmark and so on, yeah?



no, the places most Brits want to live in. Gentler climates and higher standard of living. 'The breadline people' as you so appallingly label them.


----------



## Jay Park (May 17, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> no, no it isn't: The Most Expensive Countries To Live In 2020: Europeans At The Top With Switzerland First



Forbes are full of shit, HK, Korea, Japan, and Singapore are all cheaper than the UK.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 17, 2021)

Flavour said:


> Very debatable that France is cheaper. The bits which are cheaper are not the desirable bits, anyway. Provence / Cote d'Azur is not cheaper than the UK.
> 
> The Spanish Dream


from the forbes list i linked to - most expensive countries to live in 2020

1. Switzerland
2. Norway
3. Iceland
4. Japan
5. Denmark
6. Bahamas
7. Luxembourg
8. Israel
9. Singapore
10. South Korea
11. Hong Kong
12. Barbados
13. Ireland
14. France
15. Netherlands
16. Australia
17. New Zealand
18. Belgium
19. Seychelles
20. United States
21. Austria
22. Finland
23. Sweden
24. Canada
25. Puerto Rico
26. Malta
27. *United Kingdom*
28. Italy
29*.* Germany
30. Macao


----------



## Jay Park (May 17, 2021)

bimble said:


> i'm retiring to switzerland, where a cup of coffee costs £20 a pop, with a free tiny biscuit on the side. better class of retirees over there.



So you don't fancy queing up with the


Bahnhof Strasse said:


> (((Breadline bods retiring to Spain)))


----------



## Pickman's model (May 17, 2021)

Jay Park said:


> Forbes are full of shit, HK, Korea, Japan, and Singapore are all cheaper than the UK.


yeh well if you want to prove me wrong then you're going the right way about it except you've forgotten to offer any evidence to support your excrement


----------



## Jay Park (May 17, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh well if you want to prove me wrong then you're going the right way about it except you've forgotten to offer any evidence to support your excrement



how much is a ticket on the day from Glasgow to London? Let me check that. I can go to a local food restaurant and get pork rib soup with loads of side dishes for a fiver - what the fuck kind of food can you get in England for a fiver? - fish n chips closer to a tenner. I've just made a 55 minute, bus and metro journey, for a quid. My income tax in 3.3% and we pay 200 pounds a month for a studio in a downtown area close to my partner's office.


----------



## brogdale (May 17, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> from the forbes list i linked to - most expensive countries to live in 2020
> 
> 1. Switzerland
> 2. Norway
> ...


Yes, but as with such meaned data, the reality of costs of living very much depend on individual household budget decisions.
If a disproportionately large % of a person's PDI goes on, for instance, Lager...then costs of living may be perceived as lower in states that may appear costlier but enjoy lower purchase tax.


----------



## Jay Park (May 17, 2021)

Equivalent distance about 40 dollars here and that's on the day, at the station. Be 200 plus quid in UK.


----------



## Jay Park (May 17, 2021)

Go on Badgers gis a like


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (May 17, 2021)




----------



## Jay Park (May 17, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> View attachment 268733



but you can change multiple parts on an Audi


----------



## littlebabyjesus (May 17, 2021)

I'm distrustful of that Forbes list as well. For instance, Japan isn't anywhere near as expensive as some people seem to think. Meanwhile France and Belgium more expensive than Sweden? 

Not surprised to see Switzerland at the top, but then if you live there, you earn Swiss wages and pay Swiss taxes. Swiss minimum wage is c.£15 per hour. Higher in some cantons.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 17, 2021)

Jay Park said:


> how much is a ticket on the day from Glasgow to London? Let me check that. I can go to a local food restaurant and get pork rib soup with loads of side dishes for a fiver - what the fuck kind of food can you get in England for a fiver? - fish n chips closer to a tenner. I've just made a 55 minute, bus and metro journey, for a quid. My income tax in 3.3% and we pay 200 pounds a month for a studio in a downtown area close to my partner's office.


i'm sorry, you obviously think it's a really important point you're making but i haven't the faintest idea where you're comparing the uk to.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 17, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I'm distrustful of that Forbes list as well. For instance, Japan isn't anywhere near as expensive as some people seem to think. Meanwhile France and Belgium more expensive than Sweden?
> 
> Not surprised to see Switzerland at the top, but then if you live there, you earn Swiss wages and pay Swiss taxes. Swiss minimum wage is c.£15 per hour. Higher in some cantons.


other lists are available and perhaps you could cast your eye over some of the competitors


----------



## bimble (May 17, 2021)

this website here is quite fun to piss away a part of your very productive monday morning - it has rent & groceries etc price comparisons across countries and then it also has this, quality of life, where we come in just below Lithuania but better than the French. 




__





						Europe: Quality of Life Index by Country 2021
					






					www.numbeo.com


----------



## Jay Park (May 17, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> i'm sorry, you obviously think it's a really important point you're making but i haven't the faintest idea where you're comparing the uk to.



why don't you ask instead of purposely showing oafishness?


----------



## Jay Park (May 17, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> other lists are available and perhaps you could cast your eye over some of the competitors



no no. Stop shifting. That's your list, defend it or admit defeat. Badgers gis a like mate


----------



## Pickman's model (May 17, 2021)

Jay Park said:


> why don't you ask instead of purposely showing oafishness?


there are also other areas you don't address - for example, what are you paid in comparison to the local median wage?


----------



## Pickman's model (May 17, 2021)

Jay Park said:


> no no. Stop shifting. That's your list, defend it or admit defeat. Badgers gis a like mate


i didn't know you were one of littlebabyjesus's sock puppet accounts.


----------



## TopCat (May 17, 2021)

Jay, fuck off to your utopia. Somewhere with no internet please.


----------



## Jay Park (May 17, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> there are also other areas you don't address - for example, what are you paid in comparison to the local median wage?



your Forbes list was bollocks, forget about my poxy salary, it's nothing. Are you an avid reader of Fobes?


----------



## Jay Park (May 17, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Jay, fuck off to your utopia. Somewhere with no internet please.



off-topic

personal attack


----------



## Pickman's model (May 17, 2021)

Jay Park said:


> your Forbes list was bollocks, forget about my poxy salary, it's nothing. Are you an avod reader of Fobes?


if the forbes list is bollocks then go through the methodology they used and show me its shortcomings.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 17, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Jay, fuck off to your utopia. Somewhere with no internet please.


that's cruel. somewhere with 56 kb/s internet


----------



## TopCat (May 17, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> that's cruel. somewhere with 56 kb/s internet


Free dial up only.


----------



## Jay Park (May 17, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> if the forbes list is bollocks then go through the methodology they used and show me its shortcomings.



I just did, give you a fair few examples of how Seoul - a very rich City in East Asia - is way cheaper than Bristol/Manchester/Glasgow. Nevermind London.


----------



## Jay Park (May 17, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> i didn't know you were one of littlebabyjesus's sock puppet accounts.



sometimes you are an infantile bully-boy aren't you, old chap


----------



## NoXion (May 17, 2021)

I can't speak for anyone else, but for me moving to a whole new country would be a massive life change, no matter the details of cost of living and so on. All of my friends that I've known years live here. My mum lives in Ireland and my dad in California, so I might see more of my dad if I moved to the US, assuming of course that I managed to obtain the kind of traumatic brain injury necessary for me to want to move to the US permanently.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 17, 2021)

Jay Park said:


> I just did, give you a fair few examples of how Seoul - a very rich City in East Asia - is way cheaper than Bristol/Manchester/Glasgow. Nevermind London.


no, you just said here's some cheap food, a cheap rail ticket and i pay fuck all income tax and rent. that isn't going through the methodology and pointing out its flaws. it's anecdotal evidence which wouldn't persuade a callow teenager


----------



## Pickman's model (May 17, 2021)

Jay Park said:


> sometimes you are an infantile bully-boy aren't you, old chap


i've tried to descend to your level


----------



## TopCat (May 17, 2021)

off-topic


Jay Park said:


> personal attack


Wanker.


----------



## Jay Park (May 17, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> no, you just said here's some cheap food, a cheap rail ticket and i pay fuck all income tax and rent. that isn't going through the methodology and pointing out its flaws. it's anecdotal evidence which wouldn't persuade a callow teenager



it's factual evidence which says that my necessary outcomes are way cheaper here than in the UK. You don't travel? You don't eat? You don't need shelter? You think you'd find a 60m squared room in central London for 200 quid? Stop being a bully. I know it's Monday and you're being a right grumpy sausage but... 

200 dollars, not quid


----------



## Jay Park (May 17, 2021)

TopCat said:


> off-topic
> 
> Wanker.



lads! lads! lads!


----------



## Spymaster (May 17, 2021)

Can't beat a good old Monday morning punch-up to get the week off to a start


----------



## Shechemite (May 17, 2021)

I’d like to retire somewhere sunny but cheap and whilst I’m happy to try to learn another language I’d find it easier it if they spoke English


----------



## krtek a houby (May 17, 2021)

It's nostalgic


----------



## Shechemite (May 17, 2021)

As we’re sharing


----------



## Pickman's model (May 17, 2021)

Jay Park said:


> it's factual evidence which says that my necessary outcomes are way cheaper here than in the UK. You don't travel? You don't eat? You don't need shelter? You think you'd find a 60m squared room in central London for 200 quid? Stop being a bully. I know it's Monday and you're being a right grumpy sausage but...


in the article with the list in it they describe how they arrived at their rankings. i have asked you to go back and tell me why you think the way they've done things is wrong. this is, i think, the third time i've asked: only to be met with blank incomprehension. your personal experience does not by itself invalidate the forbes list. if you can tell me where they have gone wrong i'd be glad to hear it but i am getting very bored of you thinking that repeating anecdotal evidence makes it more valid with each telling. it doesn't.


----------



## Jay Park (May 17, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Can't beat a good old Monday morning punch-up to get the week off to a start





Bahnhof Strasse


----------



## Pickman's model (May 17, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Can't beat a good old Monday morning punch-up to get the week off to a start


no indeed but it's not a good auld monday morning punch-up, taking on jp is like  facing some bleary-eyed punchdrunk neverwas


----------



## bimble (May 17, 2021)

i don't plan to die of old age here in the UK, tbh. Not got any specific plans though.


----------



## Jay Park (May 17, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> in the article with the list in it they describe how they arrived at their rankings. i have asked you to go back and tell me why you think the way they've done things is wrong. this is, i think, the third time i've asked: only to be met with blank incomprehension. your personal experience does not by itself invalidate the forbes list. if you can tell me where they have gone wrong i'd be glad to hear it but i am getting very bored of you thinking that repeating anecdotal evidence makes it more valid with each telling. it doesn't.



'The study collected and analyzed data from various prior reports, consumer price and cost of living indices to assess a wide range of living costs including transportation, clothing, accommodation, internet, utilities, groceries, taxis and eating out.'

a taxi here is about a dollar per kilometre. About 8 quid a mile in London, no?


----------



## Flavour (May 17, 2021)

MadeInBedlam said:


> I’d like to retire somewhere sunny but cheap and whilst I’m happy to try to learn another language I’d find it easier it if they spoke English



The Deep South of the USA?


----------



## Jay Park (May 17, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> no indeed but it's not a good auld monday morning punch-up, taking on jp is like  facing some bleary-eyed punchdrunk neverwas



what if I am punchdrunk?

At least I can admit when I'm wrong, and not go on a merry-dance of bullying


----------



## Shechemite (May 17, 2021)

Flavour said:


> The Deep South of the USA?



I went there once. They loved my English accent


----------



## NoXion (May 17, 2021)

bimble said:


> i don't plan to die of old age here in the UK, tbh. Not got any specific plans though.



I don't plan on dying of old age at all...


----------



## Spymaster (May 17, 2021)

MadeInBedlam said:


> I went there once. They loved my English accent


Someone threw two pomegranates at me in New Orleans.


----------



## Shechemite (May 17, 2021)

Hard to to blame them really


----------



## krtek a houby (May 17, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Someone threw two pomegranates at me in New Orleans.



Someone gave me two pomegranates in Paphos


----------



## Pickman's model (May 17, 2021)

Jay Park said:


> 'The study collected and analyzed data from various prior reports, consumer price and cost of living indices to assess a wide range of living costs including transportation, clothing, accommodation, internet, utilities, groceries, taxis and eating out.'
> 
> a taxi here is about a dollar per kilometre. About 8 quid a mile in London, no?


if i used my own personal circumstances as an indication of the price of living in london as you have used yours of living in seoul you'd have a remarkably skewed picture. 

yet you've not recognised this difficulty, that using one person's experience may be true _for them _but it isn't reasonable to extrapolate from your position or mine to say this country is dearer to live in than that one. which brings me back to my asking for some actual evidence based on a similar level of study as the forbes list, something which has looked at the same sorts of information.

on second thoughts don't bother because it's cruel of me to ask for something you so clearly can't provide.


----------



## Shechemite (May 17, 2021)

my mate and I got a taxi from Ramallah to Bethlehem. Me and the driver offered cigarettes to each other (shukran and afwan), he offered me some of his coffee (I demured) and we listened to ‘no roots’ by faithless whilst driving past Palestinian countryside and Israeli settlements.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 17, 2021)

NoXion said:


> I don't plan on dying of old age at all...


you're going to buck the trend of death


----------



## Jay Park (May 17, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> if i used my own personal circumstances as an indication of the price of living in london as you have used yours of living in seoul you'd have a remarkably skewed picture.
> 
> yet you've not recognised this difficulty, that using one person's experience may be true _for them _but it isn't reasonable to extrapolate from your position or mine to say this country is dearer to live in than that one. which brings me back to my asking for some actual evidence based on a similar level of study as the forbes list, something which has looked at the same sorts of information.
> 
> on second thoughts don't bother because it's cruel of me to ask for something you so clearly can't provide.



I read your crap article, with list (a list being an indication that your time would be better spent reading something else) and addressed the factors that the author took into account.

'Using notoriously expensive New York City as a benchmark — with an index score of 100 and considering five major metrics: cost of living, rent, groceries, eating out and purchasing power'

what more would you like me to do you gaping arsehole?


----------



## Pickman's model (May 17, 2021)

Jay Park said:


> I read your crap article, with list (a list being an indication that your time would be better spent reading something else) and addressed the factors that the author took into account.
> 
> 'Using notoriously expensive New York City as a benchmark — with an index score of 100 and considering five major metrics: cost of living, rent, groceries, eating out and purchasing power'
> 
> what more would you like me to do you gaping arsehole?


you addressed the factors as they affect you. you have not said (to be fair you haven't even suggested) that your experience is typical. but you've extrapolated from your experience in seoul to cover the whole of south korea. frankly i'd like you to do nothing. nothing at all. just sit there and don't post and i shall be well pleased.


----------



## Jay Park (May 17, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> you addressed the factors as they affect you. you have not said (to be fair you haven't even suggested) that your experience is typical. but you've extrapolated from your experience in seoul to cover the whole of south korea. frankly i'd like you to do nothing. nothing at all. just sit there and don't post and i shall be well pleased.



I didn't think you'd need to be spoonfed that I live a modest lifestyle and my expenditure is, even after declaring my income is low. You can read between the lines - and other cliches - can't you?

So it seems you wanted me to tally up the cost of living for lower and upper middle-class. The rich. And then the elite. How long have I got to do my census?

baw bag


----------



## Pickman's model (May 17, 2021)

Jay Park said:


> I didn't think you'd need to be spoonfed my modest lifestyle and expenditure, even after declaring my income is low.
> 
> So it seems you wanted me to tally up the cost of living for lower and upper middle-class. The rich. And then the elite. How long have I got to do my census?
> 
> baw bag


when i said do nothing i didn't mean make up some auld shite i haven't suggested or implied anywhere in this rather putrid exchange.


----------



## Jay Park (May 17, 2021)

Your forbes list was piffle, away and bully someone else


----------



## Badgers (May 17, 2021)

UK proposes new Irish Sea food checks from October - BBC News
					

The details are contained in a roadmap shared with the EU, which has been seen by the BBC.




					www-bbc-co-uk.cdn.ampproject.org
				






> Now we can see in black and white the problems with the protocol that have been identified by both sides, rather than relying on leaks and second-hand accounts. That's useful.
> 
> And there are a lot of issues to be resolved, reminding us that agreeing a deal is one thing and implementing it in the real world is another.
> 
> ...


----------



## Pickman's model (May 17, 2021)

Jay Park said:


> Your forbes list was piffle, away and bully someone else


you haven't shown in any way shape or form that the claim i made with it was wrong. maybe you'd like to have a go at that instead of coming out with more irrelevant wank. so how's about it? where is it wrong about europe (which was of course the context in which it was posted)?


----------



## pseudonarcissus (May 17, 2021)

Jay Park said:


> Your forbes list was piffle, away and bully someone else


to be honest, I think the Forbes list is for corporate relocation types to the capital city. Paris is expensive, to buy a house the middle of Provence is very cheap. Retirees may well be looking to cash in their UK house and buy a place at less than 100k in France or Spain and use the difference to augment their old age pensions. 
There is an alternative Forbes list "Quit Your Job And Live Abroad: 10 Places So Cheap You Might Be Able To Stop Working"

1. Portugal (In smaller cities and in the country’s interior, a couple’s budget will be about $1,700 a month.)
2. Panama (In Volcán, a couple can escape to an enjoyable, peaceful life on a monthly budget of $1,514.)
3. Costa Rica
4. Mexico
5. Colombia
6. Ecuador
7. Malaysia
8. Spain
9. France (A couple can live on a budget of $2,083 to $2,483)
10. Vietnam hmm

Clearly, if you want to retire aboard, there's a 60% chance you will need to lean Spanish.

It's an American list. Americans pay about $250k in healthcare during their retirement (own top of Medicare), so health costs are very significant to them.


----------



## pseudonarcissus (May 17, 2021)

Right, I have a webinar to listen in on...his excellency the ambassador is going to speak...

Este é um lembrete de que "Brexit impacting the Brazil-UK bilateral relations" começará em 1 hora em:
Data e hora: 17 mai. 2021 11:00 da manhã São Paulo


----------



## TopCat (May 17, 2021)

pseudonarcissus said:


> to be honest, I think the Forbes list is for corporate relocation types to the capital city. Paris is expensive, to buy a house the middle of Provence is very cheap. Retirees may well be looking to cash in their UK house and buy a place at less than 100k in France or Spain and use the difference to augment their old age pensions.
> There is an alternative Forbes list "Quit Your Job And Live Abroad: 10 Places So Cheap You Might Be Able To Stop Working"
> 
> 1. Portugal (In smaller cities and in the country’s interior, a couple’s budget will be about $1,700 a month.)
> ...


Rich Americans may pay a quarter million dollars in retirement but many just get ill and die.


----------



## pseudonarcissus (May 17, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Rich Americans may pay a quarter million dollars in retirement but many just get ill and die.


Indeed, or they don’t retire.  “Socialized medicine” is wonderful


----------



## Jay Park (May 17, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> more irrelevant wank



more impertinent wank

Badgers Badgers gis a like, Badgers, gis a like!


----------



## TopCat (May 17, 2021)

Jay Park said:


> more impertinent wank
> 
> Badgers Badgers gis a like, Badgers, gis a like!


Why not take a rest. This is not your best look.


----------



## Jay Park (May 17, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Why not take a rest. This is not your best look.



there's nothing 'Top' about you my faux furry fwiend


----------



## MrSki (May 17, 2021)

This is not good & fucking up young people's education. I expect they should have applied for a visa but didn't realise.


----------



## existentialist (May 17, 2021)

Jay Park said:


> off-topic
> 
> personal attack


Warranted. You're being fucking annoying.


----------



## Jay Park (May 17, 2021)

existentialist said:


> Warranted. You're being fucking annoying.





Here it comes


----------



## existentialist (May 17, 2021)

Jay Park said:


> View attachment 268833
> 
> Here it comes


Two things. 1. you credit me with powers of leadership and persuasion far beyond my abilities. 2. When you successfully manage to individually piss off dozens of people in a community, it doesn't automatically make a pile-on, so save us the victim posturing 

And that's my final word to you on this thread, too.


----------



## The39thStep (May 17, 2021)

bimble said:


> i don't plan to die of old age here in the UK, tbh. Not got any specific plans though.


Road accident or some sort of bizarre hunting tragedy?


----------



## The39thStep (May 17, 2021)

MrSki said:


> This is not good & fucking up young people's education. I expect they should have applied for a visa but didn't realise.



Students eh?


----------



## bimble (May 17, 2021)

This is good, on the news today that the government wants, now, to hire someone to help them figure out what the opportunities are that brexit has made.










						Wanted by HMG: Someone to make sense of Brexit
					

17th May 2021 Some things are almost beyond parody. The government of the United Kingdom, almost five years after the Brexit referendum, wants help on identifying post-Brexit opportunities.  The na…



					davidallengreen.com


----------



## ska invita (May 17, 2021)

On the moving to Spain thing, we've already had this conversation twice in recent years so not up for getting into back and forth again, but I am gutted that it looks unlikely I'll be able to move abroad as I had dreamed to one day.

Taking away freedom of movement is a class thing - the rich can still do it.

The UK is appalling on this too. I wouldn't have had the marriage I had since the pre-Brexit anti-immigrant rule changes about minimum incomes for spouses that got imposed a while back. Cameron IIRC. We wouldve been force sepearted, as has happened to many other couples.

My friends who moved to Spain did so on little money. Loads of UK travellers moved to Spain at one point, and have been living cheap in the hills ever since.

Freedom of Movement to settle within the EU was an amazing thing, and I'm disappointed not to be able to enjoy it.
But I understand the arguments that the liberty came at a cost - I understand these arguments because we've had them repeatedly on the boards for years now and I've heard them and acknowledged them. Still disappointed though. It remains an ambition of mine not to die in Lewisham hospital.


----------



## sleaterkinney (May 17, 2021)

Schools are now asking the kids for their passports.


----------



## Yossarian (May 17, 2021)

Wow - in the US its actually illegal for schools to ask about children's immigration status.


----------



## ska invita (May 17, 2021)

sleaterkinney said:


> Schools are now asking the kids for their passports.
> 
> View attachment 268860


yeah 1st July is the day of reckoning. Current estimates are in the tens of thousands of people who are going to be status: deportable. asking for documentation for access to social services/accommodation/jobs will be rigour - it already is to an extent.
 One of the reasons people have been campaigning for the 3 million+ who have been given some degree of temporary leave to remain to have some paperwork to show to prove it.

schools abc look good


----------



## Dystopiary (May 17, 2021)

ska invita said:


> On the moving to Spain thing, we've already had this conversation twice in recent years so not up for getting into back and forth again, but I am gutted that it looks unlikely I'll be able to move abroad as I had dreamed to one day.
> 
> Taking away freedom of movement is a class thing - the rich can still do it.
> 
> ...



Yes, it's definitely a class thing. Obviously I haven't been here long enough to watch the arguments go round and round, but with a few tweaks re location (and marriage) this is my stance entirely.


----------



## gosub (May 17, 2021)

What age school kids are they making the assumption of that they will have a passport?


----------



## editor (May 17, 2021)

Jay Park said:


> there's nothing 'Top' about you my faux furry fwiend


I can see that some posters are successfully winding you up to get a reaction, but if you don't stop this crap now you're going to be banned permanently with no chance of a reprieve.  
You're off this thread for starters and if you keep on generating_ justified_ reported posts, you're time here is over.


----------



## TopCat (May 18, 2021)

MrSki said:


> This is not good & fucking up young people's education. I expect they should have applied for a visa but didn't realise.



Travel was banned then no?


----------



## MrSki (May 18, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Travel was banned then no?


I expect it was the 90 day rule. No travel was not banned then but holidays were.


----------



## TopCat (May 18, 2021)

ska invita said:


> On the moving to Spain thing, we've already had this conversation twice in recent years so not up for getting into back and forth again, but I am gutted that it looks unlikely I'll be able to move abroad as I had dreamed to one day.
> 
> Taking away freedom of movement is a class thing - the rich can still do it.
> 
> ...


Get a motorbike and ride it all year round.


----------



## MrSki (May 18, 2021)

40 years a citizen with a UK passport.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (May 18, 2021)

MrSki said:


> I expect it was the 90 day rule. No travel was not banned then but holidays were.



That is sad for her but when she went back in January she would have got a stamp in her passport with the 90 days on it, surely at that point she should have twigged that she needs to do something, but apparently didn’t.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (May 18, 2021)

MrSki said:


> 40 years a citizen with a UK passport.



Yeah, Patel’s department has sent a shitload of these out, cos they are nasty cunts like their boss. Whilst annoying and nasty, it’s hardly world ending, a photo of your passport emailed to them is all it takes, about 2 minutes.


----------



## sleaterkinney (May 18, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Yeah, Patel’s department has sent a shitload of these out, cos they are nasty cunts like their boss. Whilst annoying and nasty, it’s hardly world ending, a photo of your passport emailed to them is all it takes, about 2 minutes.


Just a quick email then. A bit annoying. 2 mins.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (May 18, 2021)

sleaterkinney said:


> Just a quick email then. A bit annoying. 2 mins.



Yeah.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (May 18, 2021)

Meanwhile, Michel Barnier, EU’s chief Brexit negotiator is making a run for president of France, his big idea is to ban all immigration in to the EU for up to five years, including family reunions.


----------



## bimble (May 18, 2021)

Were they drunk when they signed the agreement on xmas eve and have only just got round to reading it? 








						Frost hopes EU will not ‘react’ if UK suspends Northern Ireland protocol
					

Brexit minister tells Commons’ select committee that Britain could act unilaterally over border checks




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## MrSki (May 18, 2021)

bimble said:


> Were they drunk when they signed the agreement on xmas eve and have only just got round to reading it?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## prunus (May 18, 2021)

bimble said:


> Were they drunk when they signed the agreement on xmas eve and have only just got round to reading it?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I think it was signed in bad faith - ie they knew it was not fit for purpose in many ways (although I am pretty sure it’s also turned out to be not fit for purpose in ways they hadn’t even noticed) but they knew the political fallout from not getting something signed before the end of the year would be damaging so they signed it anyway, intending to renege on/try to renegotiate/ignore bits they didn’t like down the line, like this.

It wasn’t about making brexit good, it was about making the brexit-makers look good.


----------



## existentialist (May 18, 2021)

sleaterkinney said:


> Just a quick email then. A bit annoying. 2 mins.


I can see how, looking at the whole thing purely calmly and rationally, that's easy to say. On the other hand, if you've spent 40 years building a life in a country, feeling like you belong, you've contributed to your new society, and built up a fair few assumptions around stability and security, then suddenly, out of the blue, to have the demand made of you that you prove your right to be here is going to be a bit of a shock.

It doesn't matter that it could be resolved with a 2 minute email - it shouldn't have happened in the first place, and is just another (OK, perhaps comparatively minor compared to people being flung in Yarl's Wood) way in which the Home Office is able to poison lives and create fear with, apparently, no second thoughts about the effects on those people. That, in my book, makes it pretty hard to justify.


----------



## bimble (May 18, 2021)

prunus said:


> I think it was signed in bad faith - ie they knew it was not fit for purpose in many ways (although I am pretty sure it’s also turned out to be not fit for purpose in ways they hadn’t even noticed) but they knew the political fallout from not getting something signed before the end of the year would be damaging so they signed it anyway, intending to renege on/try to renegotiate/ignore bits they didn’t like down the line, like this.
> 
> It wasn’t about making brexit good, it was about making the brexit-makers look good.


I think so too, but same time I believe him when he says that he really didn't expect the problems to be as bad as they are, the bombast & optimism inside their little world of true believers was to a large extent probably real not just pretend.








						Government Didn't Expect Brexit To Be So Disruptive For Northern Ireland, David Frost Admits
					

The government underestimated the impact Brexit and the Northern Ireland Protocol would have on businesses trying to send goods across the Irish Se...




					www.politicshome.com


----------



## Artaxerxes (May 18, 2021)

bimble said:


> Were they drunk when they signed the agreement on xmas eve and have only just got round to reading it?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yes, the absolutely obsessed with paperwork supra-state won't notice if the paperwork isn't done.

What a shower of twats.


----------



## brogdale (May 18, 2021)

This is quite something, even by Tory standards....


----------



## MickiQ (May 18, 2021)

ska invita said:


> On the moving to Spain thing, we've already had this conversation twice in recent years so not up for getting into back and forth again, but I am gutted that it looks unlikely I'll be able to move abroad as I had dreamed to one day.
> 
> Taking away freedom of movement is a class thing - the rich can still do it.
> 
> ...


What liberties do you think we have gained (or have yet to gain) by the UK leaving the EU?


----------



## bimble (May 18, 2021)

I don't get why they won't just agree to align with EU standards just even temporarily, to solve this whole NI thing.  "Because that would be bad for us trying to make new trade deals" doesn't seem that compelling tbh.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (May 18, 2021)

existentialist said:


> I can see how, looking at the whole thing purely calmly and rationally, that's easy to say. On the other hand, if you've spent 40 years building a life in a country, feeling like you belong, you've contributed to your new society, and built up a fair few assumptions around stability and security, then suddenly, out of the blue, to have the demand made of you that you prove your right to be here is going to be a bit of a shock.
> 
> It doesn't matter that it could be resolved with a 2 minute email - it shouldn't have happened in the first place, and is just another (OK, perhaps comparatively minor compared to people being flung in Yarl's Wood) way in which the Home Office is able to poison lives and create fear with, apparently, no second thoughts about the effects on those people. That, in my book, makes it pretty hard to justify.




It is despicable and indicative of the cunt who runs the show at that department, but it's hardly Brexit, just the same shitty, racist behaviour that lead to Windrush.


----------



## ska invita (May 18, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> What liberties do you think we have gained (or have yet to gain) by the UK leaving the EU?


my posts on this thread were in good faith








						Benefits of Brexit
					

Can some of Urban's posters give us the benefits of Brexit? I'm struggling to see any.  Preferably tangible ones, not vague ideological ones.




					www.urban75.net


----------



## Border Reiver (May 18, 2021)

MrSki said:


> 40 years a citizen with a UK passport.


Even more sadly the state pension is not a contract line a private pension. Government can just change the rules even after you have started receiving it. Should never have been structured like that.


----------



## brogdale (May 18, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> It is despicable and indicative of the cunt who runs the show at that department, but it's hardly Brexit, just the same shitty, racist behaviour that lead to Windrush.


It's both, isn't it?
Without Brexit, they'd be no UK Government _EU Settlement Scheme._
Attempting to absolve Brexit on the basis that something similar happened previously doesn't seem very convincing.


----------



## MickiQ (May 18, 2021)

ska invita said:


> my posts on this thread were in good faith
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Fair point, you were wrong but can't really blame someone for not being able to predict the future.


----------



## ska invita (May 18, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> Fair point, you were wrong but can't really blame someone for not being able to predict the future.


that thread is from two months ago


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (May 18, 2021)

brogdale said:


> It's both, isn't it?
> Without Brexit, they'd be no UK Government _EU Settlement Scheme._
> Attempting to absolve Brexit on the basis that something similar happened previously doesn't seem very convincing.




Well of course without Brexit there wouldn't be the settlement scheme, but the fact that the Home Office sends out scattergun missives such as this is a much deeper-rooted problem than leaving a political union with our neighbours. The whole department is not fit for purpose and always seems to be headed by utterly despicable arseholes.


----------



## MickiQ (May 18, 2021)

ska invita said:


> that thread is from two months ago


Apologies for not noticing the date, I just assumed that was pre-Brexit but I can't imagine either of those things a remote possibility in the current political climate.


----------



## ska invita (May 18, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> Apologies for not noticing the date, I just assumed that was pre-Brexit but I can't imagine either of those things a remote possibility in the current political climate.


not sure what you are referring to, but these things have already happened:



> Common Agricultural Policy - gone
> State Aid rules (sort of - seems to me there are still competition mechanisms in place under the post-Brexit arrangement which could be acted on - a very much untested)
> Breakup of the union (bit of a stretch to include here though tbh, its not reliant on Brexit at all, though is accelerating it now)
> 
> ...


----------



## MickiQ (May 18, 2021)

We're kind of talking at cross purposes here? Sorry if not totally clear. What benefits are we Joe Public likely to get that will compensate for losing Freedom of Movement? Rules on State Aid or the CAP don't really affect the ordinary person on the street.


----------



## bimble (May 18, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Well of course without Brexit there wouldn't be the settlement scheme, but the fact that the Home Office sends out scattergun missives such as this is a much deeper-rooted problem than leaving a political union with our neighbours. The whole department is not fit for purpose and always seems to be headed by utterly despicable arseholes.


as they say in america 'the cruely is the point',  it's not just incompetence.
Same with this shit. Just don't usually get it on front page of the Guardian cos its not happening to Italians.








						Handcuffed, detained, denied medicine: EU citizens’ UK border ordeals
					

Travellers caught up in extension of ‘hostile environment’ policy tell of being made to feel like criminals




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## gosub (May 18, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Meanwhile, Michel Barnier, EU’s chief Brexit negotiator is making a run for president of France, his big idea is to ban all immigration in to the EU for up to five years, including family reunions.


Tbf His best g idea is there not being a second round Presidential election between Macron and Le Pen


----------



## Artaxerxes (May 18, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> We're kind of talking at cross purposes here? Sorry if not totally clear. What benefits are we Joe Public likely to get that will compensate for losing Freedom of Movement? Rules on State Aid or the CAP don't really affect the ordinary person on the street.



[scene missing]


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (May 18, 2021)

bimble said:


> as they say in america 'the cruely is the point',  it's not just incompetence.
> Same with this shit. Just don't usually get it on front page of the Guardian cos its not happening to Italians.
> 
> 
> ...




It is horrific, but that article doesn't explain why they were refused entry, except the Estonian woman who sounds like she was evasive as to her reasons for entry. Ordinarily a woman from France wouldn't have any issues entering the UK, hundreds of people arrive each day with no issue, so would be interested to know why she was refused and detained for a week.


----------



## sleaterkinney (May 18, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> It is despicable and indicative of the cunt who runs the show at that department, but it's hardly Brexit, just the same shitty, racist behaviour that lead to Windrush.


Let's be clear, she was part of the leave campaign, as were the tipping point posters, it's 100% what brexit is.


----------



## brogdale (May 18, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Well of course without Brexit there wouldn't be the settlement scheme, but the fact that the Home Office sends out scattergun missives such as this is a much deeper-rooted problem than leaving a political union with our neighbours. The whole department is not fit for purpose and always seems to be headed by utterly despicable arseholes.


Yes, but Brexit and the consequent, inevitable Settlement scheme have clearly opened another opportunity for the HO to pursue its hostile environment policy. To say, as you did _but it's hardly Brexit, _probably wouldn't convince those affected, and looks a little like another instance of those knee-jerk, instinctive defences/excuses for Brexit that mirror the doomster, remainiac _sky-falling in_ brigade.


----------



## editor (May 18, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Yeah, Patel’s department has sent a shitload of these out, cos they are nasty cunts like their boss. Whilst annoying and nasty, it’s hardly world ending, a photo of your passport emailed to them is all it takes, about 2 minutes.



There's all sorts of reasons why the above task could take considerably longer than 2 minutes or - for some people - not be a job they can do without help.


----------



## two sheds (May 18, 2021)

And it's not just those 2 minutes - you're going to be (probably not sleeping properly and) wondering whether they'll fuck you over and throw you out of the country until they confirm you can stay. Anyone know how long that takes?


----------



## bimble (May 18, 2021)

If they hadn't buggered off in time this applying for settled status would've been required from my mum. It would have been really hard for her to gather the required paperwork, to prove that she'd lived here for decades, and the whole process and months of uncertainty would have completely freaked them both out, in their 70s.
Even emailing a pic of her passport (if she's had a british one which she never did bother to try to get) would be an adventure that I'd probably have to talk her through as patiently as possible. Am just very happy they left in good time.


----------



## The39thStep (May 18, 2021)

Must say that the amount of support ( funded by both the Home Office and the Portuguese SEF ) for help with residency here has been excellent . Websites in English , videos in English , dedicated Facebook page , English speakers on the end of a phone and a charity/ voluntary group who will go to peoples houses help with documents arrange appointments for those who aren’t computer literate or have transport issues. 
Simple little things about proving you have been here as evidence like cash point receipts or shopping receipts etc . 
Also extended all deadlines due to covid .
You still get people on Facebook groups giving the wrong advice or paying for solicitors to do it .


----------



## brogdale (May 18, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Must say that the amount of support ( funded by both the Home Office and the Portuguese SEF ) for help with residency here has been excellent . Websites in English , videos in English , dedicated Facebook page , English speakers on the end of a phone and a charity/ voluntary group who will go to peoples houses help with documents arrange appointments for those who aren’t computer literate or have transport issues.
> Simple little things about proving you have been here as evidence like cash point receipts or shopping receipts etc .
> Also extended all deadlines due to covid .
> You still get people on Facebook groups giving the wrong advice or paying for solicitors to do it .


Sounds like one:nil to the supra state, then?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (May 18, 2021)

two sheds said:


> And it's not just those 2 minutes - you're going to be (probably not sleeping properly and) wondering whether they'll fuck you over and throw you out of the country until they confirm you can stay. Anyone know how long that takes?


Yep. There's no age cut-off on this, as far as I'm aware. I know for sure that my old mum would be in a total mess if she had to do something like this.

AgeUK does say this



> If you receive either the New State Pension or the basic State Pension and are currently in the UK, you should be offered settled status without needing to provide further information about your residence.


But I don't know how much I trust them (the Home Office, not AgeUK), and what if you're a vulnerable person who doesn't claim a UK pension?

Bottom line is that any scheme like this will see people falling through the cracks a la Windrush. That's just what happens, so it's pretty empty to bang on about how easy they've made it.


----------



## The39thStep (May 18, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Sounds like one:nil to the supra state, then?


First time I’ve ever heard Portugal called a supra state tbh . All joint funded by the U.K. and Portugal .


----------



## bimble (May 19, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> It is horrific, but that article doesn't explain why they were refused entry, except the Estonian woman who sounds like she was evasive as to her reasons for entry. Ordinarily a woman from France wouldn't have any issues entering the UK, hundreds of people arrive each day with no issue, so would be interested to know why she was refused and detained for a week.


I don't know but from this it looks like she might have been handcuffed & locked up because she had a job interview. 








						EU to ask UK to respect citizens’ rights after mistreatment scandals
					

Exclusive: Message to Boris Johnson comes after citizens with UK job interviews say they were locked up




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (May 19, 2021)

bimble said:


> I don't know but from this it looks like she might have been handcuffed & locked up because she had a job interview.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I send 100's of people all over the place for job interviews, none yet handcuffed for it, so there really must be more to it than that. Not saying she's some wrong'un, but somewhere a fuck up has happened and it is most likely with the poor sod who was handcuffed. In fact I have just come off the phone from someone who's been told they need a "Spanish Vis Trabajo visa to permit her to work in Spain" - this is bollocks, she is going to Spain to conduct business on behalf of a UK company that has a client in Spain. But had she rolled up and started telling Spanish immigration that she was there to work then she would be denied entry. Just the subtle difference between travelling for business vs work, makes a big difference and easy to cock up your story if not aware...


----------



## TopCat (May 19, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> We're kind of talking at cross purposes here? Sorry if not totally clear. What benefits are we Joe Public likely to get that will compensate for losing Freedom of Movement? Rules on State Aid or the CAP don't really affect the ordinary person on the street.


Increased wage rates as companies compete for a workforce that is smaller given no free movement now.
Scaffolder mate for instance is now getting over £200 a day now.


----------



## editor (May 19, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Increased wage rates as companies compete for a workforce that is smaller given no free movement now.
> Scaffolder mate for instance is now getting over £200 a day now.


Any hard evidence that your anecdotal story is happening across the board for all workers as a direct result of Brexit?


----------



## TopCat (May 19, 2021)

editor said:


> Any hard evidence that your anecdotal story is happening across the board for all workers as a direct result of Brexit?


Not all workers. Just those who build and make stuff that’s useful and valuable.
Creative types producing adverts and jingles, I have no idea as I shun such people.


----------



## MickiQ (May 19, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Increased wage rates as companies compete for a workforce that is smaller given no free movement now.
> Scaffolder mate for instance is now getting over £200 a day now.


And that's great of course, if you're a skilled worker with an in demand skill then reducing the supply even further is going to push your pay up and good luck to anyone who is taking advantage of that. Brexit isn't universally bad but I suspect the wages for unskilled labour isn't likely to change much if all.


----------



## TopCat (May 19, 2021)

But hey editor I recognise that only certain anecdotal evidence is accepted here on this thread (wild tales of remainer penury).
Here is a link from a company that manages 30,000 construction workers wages.








						Skilled labour rates rise a fifth in a year
					

It is not just materials that are going up in price – labour is too.




					www.google.co.uk


----------



## TopCat (May 19, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> And that's great of course, if you're a skilled worker with an in demand skill then reducing the supply even further is going to push your pay up and good luck to anyone who is taking advantage of that. Brexit isn't universally bad but I suspect the wages for unskilled labour isn't likely to change much if all.


Site labour rates are up for skilled and unskilled.


----------



## editor (May 19, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Not all workers. Just those who build and make stuff that’s useful and valuable.
> Creative types producing adverts and jingles, I have no idea as I shun such people.



No idea where jingles are coming into this but I'll try again: 

Have you any hard evidence that your anecdotal story is happening across the board for all construction workers/scaffolders as a direct result of Brexit?


----------



## editor (May 19, 2021)

TopCat said:


> But hey, I recognise that only certain anecdotal evidence is accepted here on this thread (wild tales of remainer penury).
> Here is a link from a company that manages 30,000 construction workers wages.
> 
> 
> ...


What's that got to do with Brexit? 



> The company is warning that supply chain pressures are tightening as the bounce-back economy fuels demand for skilled labour and building materials.
> 
> Its latest analysis of payroll data shows average weekly earnings of £878 during April, an increase of 19.6% compared to April 2020. The picture varies regionally, from a 29% increase in the southwest to less than 5% in London. (See table below.)
> 
> ...


----------



## TopCat (May 19, 2021)

editor said:


> No idea where jingles are coming into this but I'll try again:
> 
> Have you any hard evidence that your anecdotal story is happening across the board for all construction workers/scaffolders as a direct result of Brexit?


Read the link I posted. Up by a fifth.


----------



## TopCat (May 19, 2021)

editor said:


> What's that got to do with Brexit?


Removing free movement has caused a lack of cheap labour and rates are going up.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (May 19, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Removing free movement has caused a lack of cheap labour and rates are going up.




Come on TC, don't forget:



Bahnhof Strasse said:


> the rules:  _any positive outcome would have happened anyway, any negative thing is Brexit's fault._


----------



## editor (May 19, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Removing free movement has caused a lack of cheap labour and rates are going up.



Source please. 

This study does not back up your assertion:



> ONS (2021d) reports that much of the wage growth observed in the UK is due to the changing composition of employment, with lower wage workers more likely to have become unemployed during the pandemic. Previous research finds that these cuts are highly unequal, with nearly six in 10 of 15–25-year-olds suffering from a fall in earnings (Elliot Major, Eyles and Machin, 2021). Table 2 shows that firms do expect to increase nominal wages in the next year by 1.7% on average, but the expected growth remains well below the pre-pandemic trend.





> While nominal wage growth has slowed, average prices have continued to increase at a similar rate during the crisis. Our data suggests that firms have increased average prices by 0.5% throughout the pandemic, which aligns with the producer price inflation of 0.6% reported by the ONS for all manufactured products (ONS 2021e). In addition to the increase in the average price level, price volatility is currently at its highest rate since 1991 (Davies, 2021). In the period of the pandemic, the increase in average wages has been lower than the average growth of prices.





> Firms expect this trend to reverse in the next 12 months, with average prices predicted to rise by 0.7% compared with the expected 1.7% growth of average wages. Lower wages often reduce demand for goods and services and put downward pressure on prices. Yet despite lower earnings growth since the pandemic, prices have increased by more. This is partially explained by rising average costs, at least in the manufacturing sector. In January 2021, 19% more firms reported that average costs of inputs have increased in the past three months than have reported that they are decreasing (Table 1). By April 2021, this has risen further to 25%. This is much higher than before the pandemic when just 6% more firms had faced increasing costs than those facing decreases. For manufactured goods, the ONS reports higher increases in input prices than output prices (ONS, 2021e). Many inputs to production are imported and freight costs have increased because of the pandemic. Brexit is likely to have further increased input costs by increasing barriers to trade between the UK and its largest trade and investment partner, the EU. We discuss this in more in the later in the briefing






			https://cep.lse.ac.uk/pubs/download/cepcovid-19-021.pdf


----------



## editor (May 19, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Come on TC, don't forget:



Yes let's just ignore the studies that don't back up what his scaffolder mate said.



> On top of the pandemic, Brexit has changed economic conditions for UK firms. UK trade fell sharply in 2021, and in this report we have shown evidence that Brexit played a role in this. A sizeable share of firms is experiencing issues in trading with the EU such as delays at the border and burdensome administrative costs. This has translated into rising costs, higher prices and reduced competitiveness. The government should seek to support businesses in the transition to new trading relationships and to ensure that the increase in border costs are minimised.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (May 19, 2021)

editor said:


> Yes let's just ignore the studies that don't back up what his scaffolder mate said.




Or post up a study that is primarily concerned with the effects of Covid and try to palm it off as one that concentrates on the effects of Brexit.


----------



## pseudonarcissus (May 19, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Read the link I posted. Up by a fifth.


....compared to April 2020, just when the economy was locking down...surely 2019 would be a better comparator.


----------



## editor (May 19, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Or post up a study that is primarily concerned with the effects of Covid and try to palm it off as one that concentrates on the effects of Brexit.



Did you miss the title? I don't think it could be any clearer. How are you arriving at the conclusion that "it is primarily concerned with the effects of Covid"?

_The impacts of Covid-19 and Brexit on the UK economy: early evidence in 2021_


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (May 19, 2021)

editor said:


> Did you miss the title? I don't think it could be any clearer. How are you arriving at the conclusion that "it is primarily concerned with the effects of Covid"?



Cos I read the report and it is primarily concerned with the effects of Covid.


----------



## editor (May 19, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Cos I read the report and it is primarily concerned with the effects of Covid.



So you're asserting that the authors used a misleading title then? 

If that's the case, how come the report mentions Brexit 39 times and Covid just 25 times?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (May 19, 2021)

editor said:


> So you're asserting that the authors used a misleading title then?
> 
> If that's the case, how come the report mentions Brexit 39 times and Covid just 25 times?




I am asserting the thrust of the report is on the effects of Covid, not sure how many times I need to repeat myself before that sinks in.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 19, 2021)

editor said:


> So you're asserting that the authors used a misleading title then?
> 
> If that's the case, how come the report mentions Brexit 39 times and Covid just 25 times?


there are more ways of saying covid than there are of saying brexit, eg the virus, the pandemic, so your count may not be as indicative as you think


----------



## editor (May 19, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> I am asserting the thrust of the report is on the effects of Covid, not sure how many times I need to repeat myself before that sinks in.



I'm actually quite impressed by the level of your denial here.  The report's title make it _crystal clear_ what it is about, as does the ensuing content.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (May 19, 2021)

editor said:


> I'm actually quite impressed by the level of your denial here.  The report's title make it _crystal clear_ what it is about, as does the ensuing content.




OK, carry on with your delusions, really can't be bothered with your nonsense today.


----------



## editor (May 19, 2021)

Do you think the report is 'primarily concerned with the effects of Covid' (despite its title)?


----------



## TopCat (May 19, 2021)

Seems the only personal anecdotes allowed now are of plucky musicians travelling around Europe in the back of a transit van perched on piles of merch, playing gigs and getting home on time to sign on again.


----------



## editor (May 19, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Seems the only personal anecdotes allowed now are of plucky musicians travelling around Europe in the back of a transit van perched on piles of merch, playing gigs and getting home on time to sign on again.



You means the documented cases backed up by union statements, yes?

Still, I'm glad your mate the scaffolder is doing OK, even if the study I posted up suggests he may be more like the exception to the rule.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 19, 2021)

editor said:


> Source please.
> 
> This study does not back up your assertion:
> 
> ...


frankly i'm not that impressed by any study of the impact of brexit which declares that the uk left the eu on 1 january 2021. and nor should you be. being as the uk left the eu on 31 january 2020.  if they have that basic fact wrong, what other errors lie within?

e2a: it's hidden away on page 2



Bahnhof Strasse


----------



## editor (May 19, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> if they have that basic fact wrong, what other errors lie within?


That doesn't answer my question, but whatever.


----------



## bimble (May 19, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Not all workers. Just those who build and make stuff that’s useful and valuable.
> Creative types producing adverts and jingles, I have no idea as I shun such people.



What about farmers? The news today seems to be we are going to have a trade deal with zero imports on cheap meat from Australia - fucking Autralia ffs,  that'll be a great environmental step forward . 








						UK farmers sound alarm over Australia trade talks
					

Labour accuse the government of a "sell-out" amid reports of a Cabinet rift over free trade deal.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## Pickman's model (May 19, 2021)

editor said:


> That doesn't answer my question, but whatever.


if you're not prepared to defend your source then you might as well cede the point now


----------



## TopCat (May 19, 2021)

bimble said:


> What about farmers? The news today seems to be we are going to have a trade deal with zero imports on cheap meat from Australia - fucking Autralia ffs,  that'll be a great environmental step forward .
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Do you think we should ditch the deal we have with New Zealand? The imported lamb makes it hard for our hill farmers to compete.


----------



## bimble (May 19, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Do you think we should ditch the deal we have with New Zealand? The imported lamb makes it hard for our hill farmers to compete.


yeah, i would like to eat lamb from wales instead. the whole lamb thing is mad, i remember googling a while ago how we send legs to the other side of the planet and they send us chops back, or something like that, just mad.

or maybe its good if all the welsh hill farmers fail, the hills return to something more like how they used to be and the farmers can you know learn to write jingles.


----------



## TopCat (May 19, 2021)

bimble said:


> yeah, i would like to eat lamb from wales instead. the whole lamb thing is mad, i remember googling a while ago how we send legs to the other side of the planet and they send us chops back, or something like that, just mad.
> 
> or maybe its good if all the welsh hill farmers fail, the hills return to something more like how they used to be and the farmers can you know learn to write jingles.


I would add tarrifs to NZ lamb myself. Plus to Aussie lamb and beef.


----------



## bimble (May 19, 2021)

TopCat said:


> I would add tarrifs to NZ lamb myself. Plus to Aussie lamb and beef.


well, looks like the opposite is happening.
 "The Financial Times reported that Environment Secretary George Eustice and Cabinet Office minister Michael Gove are at loggerheads with International Trade Secretary Liz Truss and Brexit minister Lord Frost over granting* tariff-free access* to Australian, and possibly New Zealand, farmers.'
Idk how they could agree that and then claim it's a good trade deal, seems desperate.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (May 19, 2021)

bimble said:


> well, looks like the opposite is happening.
> "The Financial Times reported that Environment Secretary George Eustice and Cabinet Office minister Michael Gove are at loggerheads with International Trade Secretary Liz Truss and Brexit minister Lord Frost over granting* tariff-free access* to Australian, and possibly New Zealand, farmers.'
> Idk how they could agree that and then claim it's a good trade deal, seems desperate.




It would depend on what we can flog down there tariff free, but the plus side is lots of lovely, cheap steak and chops coming here


----------



## bimble (May 19, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> It would depend on what we can flog down there tariff free, but the plus side is lots of lovely, cheap steak and chops coming here


Mostly range rovers & booze it looks like, they buy from us. Anyway yeah, fuck the farmers, cheap meat from the other side of the world is great news, farmers aren't proper workers anyway.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (May 19, 2021)

bimble said:


> Mostly range rovers & booze it looks like, they buy from us. Anyway yeah, fuck the farmers, cheap meat from the other side of the world is great news, farmers aren't proper workers anyway.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 19, 2021)

i'll say one thing for nz lamb, at least none* of the chernobyl radiation got there








						Chernobyl and the north Wales sheep farmers, 30 years on
					

The effects of the Chernobyl nuclear disaster on farming in Wales remembered, 30 years on.



					www.bbc.co.uk
				




_____
* or very little


----------



## seeformiles (May 19, 2021)

bimble said:


> What about farmers? The news today seems to be we are going to have a trade deal with zero imports on cheap meat from Australia - fucking Autralia ffs,  that'll be a great environmental step forward .
> 
> 
> 
> ...



About 25 years ago, the supermarkets were flooded with ultra cheap (& really good) mature Australian Cheddar. While I wasn’t complaining about the price at the time, I did wonder how it could possibly be economically viable to ship a cheap bulk foodstuff from the other side of the world (let alone the environmental considerations)


----------



## bimble (May 19, 2021)

seeformiles said:


> About 25 years ago, the supermarkets were flooded with ultra cheap (& really good) mature Australian Cheddar. While I wasn’t complaining about the price at the time, I did wonder how it could possibly be economically viable to ship a cheap bulk foodstuff from the other side of the world (let alone the environmental considerations)


Maybe they had a cheese mountain down there, as you do when dairy farmers get the Gov buying excess milk, so it was free cheese apart from the shipping. I like the word cheese mountain.


----------



## seeformiles (May 19, 2021)

bimble said:


> Maybe they had a cheese mountain down there, as you do when dairy farmers get the Gov buying excess milk, so it was free cheese apart from the shipping. I like the word cheese mountain.



Climbing a Cheese Mountain is a long time dream of mine...(with a backpack full of crackers naturally 😎)


----------



## Supine (May 19, 2021)

The promise to farmers of protection from other markets and the reality of Brexit being free trade, which could kill off our farming community, sums up Brexit under the Conservatives.

Even pro Brexit people must admit the implementation is going badly for the workers in most industries.


----------



## MrSki (May 19, 2021)

How Brexit is going.


----------



## The39thStep (May 19, 2021)

Speaking of farmers, this is absolutely astounding 









						UK government to pay older farmers to retire - BBC News
					

Older farmers in England will be paid to retire under a government scheme.




					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## Supine (May 19, 2021)

MrSki said:


> How Brexit is going.



Looks like Bahnhof Strasse had a few too many shandies at the rave before heading home


----------



## glitch hiker (May 19, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Speaking of farmers, this is absolutely astounding
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Who needs food!


----------



## Artaxerxes (May 19, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Speaking of farmers, this is absolutely astounding
> 
> 
> 
> ...



What, all of them?


----------



## bimble (May 20, 2021)

ska invita said:


> So is that stuff about going to the Hotel D'Ville a lie?


no it was true.

'The rule, which has applied to British travellers since the UK left the EU, requires anyone in France hosting non-EU nationals to complete an _attestation d’accueil_ form and submit it for approval to their town hall, a process that can take up to a month. Once stamped and returned, the form, which costs €30 (£26) and requires supporting documents such as proof of address, income and right of residence, must then be forwarded to the guest so they can show it at the border if asked to do so..'

Bahnhof Strasse hope you're not telling yr customers its all scaremongering bolloxs, like you were telling us, and sending them off to stay with their friends without the correct paperwork.








						Brexit: UK travellers to France and Spain may need proof of accommodation
					

People in France hosting non-EU nationals need to submit £26 form to their town hall as part of post-Brexit changes




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (May 20, 2021)

bimble said:


> Maybe they had a cheese mountain down there, as you do when dairy farmers get the Gov buying excess milk, so it was free cheese apart from the shipping. I like the word cheese mountain.





bimble said:


> no it was true.
> 
> 'The rule, which has applied to British travellers since the UK left the EU, requires anyone in France hosting non-EU nationals to complete an _attestation d’accueil_ form and submit it for approval to their town hall, a process that can take up to a month. Once stamped and returned, the form, which costs €30 (£26) and requires supporting documents such as proof of address, income and right of residence, must then be forwarded to the guest so they can show it at the border if asked to do so..'
> 
> ...



Odd isn’t it. Of the 100’s of people I have sent so far this year they have all been sent back to the U.K. for not having this, yet I come on here to say it is not needed.

The sole person that I have had any issue with so far this year was a black French man at Eurostar at Gare du Nord where U.K. immigration told him he needed a form which does not exist and wouldn’t let him pass. We sent him to Charles de Gaulle where he boarded a flight with no issues. We have had no issues at all with people going the other way, many of whom stay in private accommodation.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (May 20, 2021)

That Attestation that the Guardian is banging on about is aimed at people hosting long term guests. Immigration people are not able to check if it is in place or not. So just what are these morons the Guardian are digging up doing at the border? Makes you wonder.


----------



## dessiato (May 20, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Who have had five years to apply for residency.


This is what pisses me off. The number of British immigrants here who are complaining about not having got their driving licences changed, not got their residency sorted is striking. I appreciate there was a last minute sudden influx but even those arriving as late as December had time to start the process.

One reason is that the UK government kept suggesting that there was no need to do anything. There are some still repeating this mantra. They are wrong.

There's a lot of these immigrants still confused by the rules as they are now affected. They forget that the benefits of EU membership no longer apply to them. Not always the retired either.

I have a mid 20s colleague who won't change her residency status. She doesn't see the need. She lives in Seville. I have a 40+ colleague who supports Brexit. He lives in Jerez.


----------



## bimble (May 20, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Odd isn’t it. Of the 100’s of people I have sent so far this year they have all been sent back to the U.K. for not having this, yet I come on here to say it is not needed.
> 
> The sole person that I have had any issue with so far this year was a black French man at Eurostar at Gare du Nord where U.K. immigration told him he needed a form which does not exist and wouldn’t let him pass. We sent him to Charles de Gaulle where he boarded a flight with no issues. We have had no issues at all with people going the other way, many of whom stay in private accommodation.


okay, but you were just factually incorrect when you said it was a lie, that twitter thread about france & staying with friends, thats all. Not much point going 'project fear' when its just some facts about admin that we all need to adjust to.


----------



## existentialist (May 20, 2021)

bimble said:


> no it was true.
> 
> 'The rule, which has applied to British travellers since the UK left the EU, requires anyone in France hosting non-EU nationals to complete an _attestation d’accueil étranger_ form and submit it for approval to their town hall, a process that can take up to a month. Once stamped and returned, the form, which costs €30 (£26) and requires supporting documents such as proof of address, income and right of residence, must then be forwarded to the guest so they can show it at the border if asked to do so..'
> 
> ...


I can vouch for this, as I was looking into this very scenario. It's called the "_attestation d'accueil_", and is actually a rule that has been in place for a long time for non-EU citizens, which of course UK citizens now are. There are a lot of expat Brits in France who are very used to ad hoc visits from friends and family - it's something I have made full advantage of over the last 15 years - and many of them are discovering, with some surprise, that what was a simple, casual arrangement is now something of a bureaucratic nightmare, particularly if you are an essentially non-French-speaking resident.

France has a lot of strict and onerous laws, and a culture of disregarding those it thinks are silly (eg the requirement to carry two single-use intoximeters in your vehicle at all times - which the French routinely ignored, and has now been abandoned). The problem is that, if you disregard the rules, and they *do* come after you, fines are often swingeing, which rather naturally discourages people from doing so...particularly people who aren't already ingrained in French attitudes and culture.

While this rule was clearly not designed to punish Brits specifically - given that it existed long before Brexit was even a twinkle in a gammon's eye - I think it would be reasonable to expect that it is unlikely to be one of those that is applied more in the breach than the observance, at least as far as UK citizens are concerned. I mean, if I were a French government official, looking across the Channel at the way the UK is treating EU citizens in this country, I don't think I'd be feeling inclined to cut UK citizens the slack the UK clearly isn't cutting for EU citizens here.

And that is not the only problem. At the moment, the department responsible for issuing French driving licences to licence holders from other countries is overwhelmed, and in the best traditions of French bureaucracy, they appear quite happy to let the process trickle through without increasing the capacity of the system. I hear that the turnaround time is around a year, and this is posing significant problems for older immigrants, whose licences become invalid at age 70, and no longer eligible to be exchanged for a French licence. In that situation, the only option is to take a French driving test. Which requires knowledge - in French - of the rules and laws governing driving, and the ability to complete - in French - a practical driving test, after a minimum of 20 hours' tuition...also in French. A lot of things expats had always been able to take for granted are turning out to be concessions that, post-Brexit, no longer apply.

Regardless of my own views on whether we should have left the EU, it does seem remarkably short-sighted of the UK government not to have investigated, and publicised, the likely impact on UK citizens - including expats - of Brexit on their lifestyles and status abroad. That would have been the honest, and transparent thing to have done, which is why I am not remotely surprised that it didn't happen. After all, when those campaigning against Brexit pointed out even the most minor drawbacks of leaving, it was quickly written off as "Project Fear".

Well, the fear is here now.

ETA: Corrected the name of the _attestation_.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (May 20, 2021)

bimble said:


> okay, but you were just factually incorrect when you said it was a lie, that twitter thread about france & staying with friends, thats all. Not much point going 'project fear' when its just some facts about admin that we all need to adjust to.



Apologies, not a total lie but very much in line the a PRC that is required by people coming to the U.K. from Ukrainian, Dubai, Israel and so on.

Never heard of it? Costs £36 and if you need one and don’t get one you can be sent to prison for six months. But they are never needed, just like this French thing, unless there is something else going on.


----------



## brogdale (May 20, 2021)

Along with many folk, when I rock up in Calais in me camper, I don't even know where I'm heading for (exactly) let alone have any proof of booking etc.

Utterly unworkable if they want to retain a touring industry.


----------



## existentialist (May 20, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Apologies, not a total lie but very much in line the a PRC that is required by people coming to the U.K. from Ukrainian, Dubai, Israel and so on.
> 
> Never heard of it? Costs £36 and if you need one and don’t get one you can be sent to prison for six months.* But they are never needed, just like this French thing, unless there is something else going on.*


That's not what I understand. I strongly suspect that, in the past, there has tended to be a racist element to its implementation (so, if you're African, and turn up in a French village, someone is almost certainly going to flag it up), but it has definitely been there a long time, and has been implemented before it applied to UK citizens.


----------



## bimble (May 20, 2021)

i'm such an arsehole that i hope this rule does apply to my next door neighbour, who owns a house in the french alps where he does yoga holidays for paying guests from uk. Idk if he voted leave or not but remember him saying nothing would change at all in his opinion by which me meant nothing that would impact him personally. If it were to be applied it would probably make him cry because it would be inconvenient and that would be nice, i don't like him.


----------



## existentialist (May 20, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Along with many folk, when I rock up in Calais in me camper, I don't even know where I'm heading for (exactly) let alone have any proof of booking etc.
> 
> Utterly unworkable if they want to retain a touring industry.


I agree that there are going to be certain categories of people who may be excluded, but my understanding of the French regulations (eg here in English) is that, if you have an _attestation d'acceuil etranger_, you only have to provide proof that you have funds equivalent to 32.50 euros per day, with a hotel booking, it's 65 euros/day, and without either, it's 120 euros/day.

Proof needs to be by production of a bank statement, or a valid credit card, but I don't know the precise details.


----------



## MrSki (May 20, 2021)

bimble said:


> i'm such an arsehole that i hope this rule does apply to my next door neighbour, who owns a house in the french alps where he does yoga holidays for paying guests from uk. Idk if he voted leave or not but remember him saying nothing would change at all in his opinion by which me meant nothing that would impact him personally. If it were to be applied it would probably make him cry because it would be inconvenient and that would be nice, i don't like him.


I don't think many on here like him either.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 20, 2021)

MrSki said:


> I don't think many on here like him either.


This is the dog abandoner I think 

So no, no one who knows him as we know him likes him


----------



## brogdale (May 20, 2021)

existentialist said:


> I agree that there are going to be certain categories of people who may be excluded, but my understanding of the French regulations (eg here in English) is that, if you have an _attestation d'acceuil etranger_, you only have to provide proof that you have funds equivalent to 32.50 euros per day, with a hotel booking, it's 65 euros/day, and without either, it's 120 euros/day.
> 
> Proof needs to be by production of a bank statement, or a valid credit card, but I don't know the precise details.


If stopped, I'll just say we're going to Belgium, then toodle on....


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (May 20, 2021)

brogdale said:


> If stopped, I'll just say we're going to Belgium, then toodle on....




No, you need to be really shifty, not give a plausible explanation as to why you are in France and offer no evidence of being able to support yourself. Then you can have your 15 minutes in the Guardian.


----------



## brogdale (May 20, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> No, you need to be really shifty, not give a plausible explanation as to why you are in France and offer no evidence of being able to support yourself. Then you can have your 15 minutes in the Guardian.


If they're seriously going to investigate means of support at entry, the queues at Calais will be phenomenal.
I mean, I could flash a credit card, but checking whether or not it's valid, blocked or what credit limit etc?


----------



## bimble (May 20, 2021)

yeah, this will probably not be applied much if you're white and from uk etc. Maybe though, if Brits who own houses over there piss their french neighbours off enough it could be enforced just out of spite sometimes?


----------



## existentialist (May 20, 2021)

brogdale said:


> If they're seriously going to investigate means of support at entry, the queues at Calais will be phenomenal.
> I mean, I could flash a credit card, but checking whether or not it's valid, blocked or what credit limit etc?


I'm guessing that it will probably all be a bit of a box-ticking exercise. But it is worth remembering that the French have inconveniencing people via bureaucracy down to a fine art, and if they decide that they're going to take 10 minutes processing every entry to the country, they damn well will .

I mean, it's the work of a few moments to edit the image of a bank statement to add a couple of extra digits, and I imagine that there will be no simple way of them verifying that, either... 

But then, it's also worth remembering that French law has a tendency to ask you to swear on your honour that something is true (the Covid _attestations_, for example), but against the prospect of being hit with massive fines (or prison) if you turn out not to have been telling the truth.


----------



## ska invita (May 20, 2021)

existentialist said:


> Proof needs to be by production of a bank statement, or a valid credit card, but I don't know the precise details.


Credit card has been mentioned a couple of times now - is a debit card good enough? i dont have a credit card


----------



## Badgers (May 20, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Odd isn’t it. Of the 100’s of people I have sent so far this year they have all been sent back to the U.K. for not having this, yet I come on here to say it is not needed.
> 
> The sole person that I have had any issue with so far this year was a black French man at Eurostar at Gare du Nord where U.K. immigration told him he needed a form which does not exist and wouldn’t let him pass. We sent him to Charles de Gaulle where he boarded a flight with no issues. We have had no issues at all with people going the other way, many of whom stay in private accommodation.


Good to hear that but I assume you are dealing with business travellers?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (May 20, 2021)

brogdale said:


> If they're seriously going to investigate means of support at entry, the queues at Calais will be phenomenal.
> I mean, I could flash a credit card, but checking whether or not it's valid, blocked or what credit limit etc?




A valid credit card is the universally accepted form of demonstrating means to support yourself, and no, they can't check if you have already maxed it out.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 20, 2021)

existentialist said:


> I'm guessing that it will probably all be a bit of a box-ticking exercise. But it is worth remembering that the French have inconveniencing people via bureaucracy down to a fine art, and if they decide that they're going to take 10 minutes processing every entry to the country, they damn well will .
> 
> I mean, it's the work of a few moments to edit the image of a bank statement to add a couple of extra digits, and I imagine that there will be no simple way of them verifying that, either...


You will be walked to a cashpoint and your balance checked


----------



## existentialist (May 20, 2021)

bimble said:


> yeah, this will probably not be applied much if you're white and from uk etc. Maybe though, if Brits who own houses over there piss their french neighbours off enough it could be enforced just out of spite sometimes?


Quite possibly, yes. But then that would not be something unique to France - look at how eager the Benefits Agency (ETA: or Home Office ) is to encourage people to grass on those they think are trying it on.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (May 20, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Good to hear that but I assume you are dealing with business travellers?



Not in the corporate sense, no.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (May 20, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Credit card has been mentioned a couple of times now - is a debit card good enough? i dont have a credit card



Usually, yes. I don't have a credit card, but do have a charge card as well as a debit card. Have never been asked to prove I have fund or an onward ticket. Of course it helps to be white, but not looking like a shifty fucker who can't give a plausible reason for travelling is the key.


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## brogdale (May 20, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> You will be walked to a cashpoint and your balance checked


Queues will start at Swanley


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## brogdale (May 20, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> A valid credit card is the universally accepted form of demonstrating means to support yourself, and no, they can't check if you have already maxed it out.


So entirely symbolic, rather than meaningful, then?


----------



## existentialist (May 20, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Credit card has been mentioned a couple of times now - is a debit card good enough? i dont have a credit card


From Means of Subsistence - How much money do you need for a Schengen Visa (although this refers to Schengen visa applications, these are the EU rules regarding subsistence, and are applied generally, not just in France)

Generally, there are several recognized ways to prove your financial sufficiency:


> A personal bank statement indicating your financial movements (for at least 3 last months)
> Credit card
> Cash
> Traveller’s cheques
> ...


I would interpret the absence of "debit card" on that list as a significant thing.

Remember, you will also need proof of an adequate level of travel insurance cover, as well.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (May 20, 2021)

brogdale said:


> So entirely symbolic, rather than meaningful, then?




Yep.

I presume you're aware of the epic thread on entry to the US? Same now applies to the EU.


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## brogdale (May 20, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Yep.
> 
> I presume you're aware of the epic thread on entry to the US? Same now applies to the EU.


Can't say that I am familiar with anything to do with the US; never been there and have no plans to.
I like pissing around in France, though.


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## existentialist (May 20, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> You will be walked to a cashpoint and your balance checked


Given that, if you're hit with a driving fine in France, SOP seems to be to do exactly that - taking you to a cashpoint - your idea is not beyond the realm of possibility


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## dessiato (May 20, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Along with many folk, when I rock up in Calais in me camper, I don't even know where I'm heading for (exactly) let alone have any proof of booking etc.
> 
> Utterly unworkable if they want to retain a touring industry.


There is a small number of people here who don't want the British back. The drunken, loutish behaviour is not missed and certainly not wanted again. 

The large number of camper vans still driving around, with UK plates, which have been here illegally, are starting to be noticed. I wonder how long it will be before they are stopped.

Now passports are being stamped again there is a clear record of when a person enters EU and can be easily checked on leaving. What used to be a simple case of crossing a border to another country and continuing to stay over here no longer is possible. At some point you will leave to go home, and there's the incriminating passport stamp.


----------



## existentialist (May 20, 2021)

brogdale said:


> So entirely symbolic, rather than meaningful, then?


Entirely symbolic...until it isn't.


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## MrSki (May 20, 2021)

When I was a nipper the way round this was to buy travellers cheques & lose them.   Have them cancelled & re-issued & you then have a load of travellers cheques you can't cash but can wave around as proof of funds along with the ones you can cash. Just don't confuse the two & try and cash the cancelled ones.


----------



## brogdale (May 20, 2021)

dessiato said:


> There is a small number of people here who don't want the British back. The drunken, loutish behaviour is not missed and certainly not wanted again.
> 
> The large number of camper vans still driving around, with UK plates, which have been here illegally, are starting to be noticed. I wonder how long it will be before they are stopped.
> 
> Now passports are being stamped again there is a clear record of when a person enters EU and can be easily checked on leaving. What used to be a simple case of crossing a border to another country and continuing to stay over here no longer is possible. At some point you will leave to go home, and there's the incriminating passport stamp.


Lordy, as well as going through my bank statements, they're planning on stamping passports at Calais?
Revise my comment about Swanley; looks like we'll have to drive back to Swindon to join the queue for Dover.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (May 20, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Can't say that I am familiar with anything to do with the US; never been there and have no plans to.
> I like pissing around in France, though.




Fill yer boots: Travelling from the UK to the USA with a criminal record


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## brogdale (May 20, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Fill yer boots: Travelling from the UK to the USA with a criminal record


_I'm so bored with the U.S.A.
But what can I do?_


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## existentialist (May 20, 2021)

dessiato said:


> There is a small number of people here who don't want the British back. The drunken, loutish behaviour is not missed and certainly not wanted again.
> 
> The large number of camper vans still driving around, with UK plates, which have been here illegally, are starting to be noticed. I wonder how long it will be before they are stopped.
> 
> Now passports are being stamped again there is a clear record of when a person enters EU and can be easily checked on leaving. What used to be a simple case of crossing a border to another country and continuing to stay over here no longer is possible. At some point you will leave to go home, and there's the incriminating passport stamp.


In all matters, I tend to operate on the basis that, if there exists any kind of documentation that disproves some claim I'm making, then the possibility exists, however remotely, that I will be caught out. So I could flash a maxed-out credit card, because I'm not making any kind of formal statement that I *do* have the funds...but if I faked a bank statement and they *did* check, by some means, that'd be a gotcha. 

Even if it all settles down after a while, those rules are still there, and it only takes - for example - getting stranded in France and not having the financial resources to support yourself to expose the untruth.


----------



## dessiato (May 20, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Lordy, as well as going through my bank statements, they're planning on stamping passports at Calais?
> Revise my comment about Swanley; looks like we'll have to drive back to Swindon to join the queue for Dover.


I don't know about Calais, but it is happening here now.


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## Artaxerxes (May 20, 2021)

MrSki said:


> When I was a nipper the way round this was to buy travellers cheques & lose them.   Have them cancelled & re-issued & you then have a load of travellers cheques you can't cash but can wave around as proof of funds along with the ones you can cash. Just don't confuse the two & try and cash the cancelled ones.



Are travellers cheques even still a thing?


----------



## brogdale (May 20, 2021)

dessiato said:


> I don't know about Calais, but it is happening here now.


It'll all be ANPR stuff, won't it?


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## Yossarian (May 20, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Usually, yes. I don't have a credit card, but do have a charge card as well as a debit card. Have never been asked to prove I have fund or an onward ticket. Of course it helps to be white, but not looking like a shifty fucker who can't give a plausible reason for travelling is the key.



Seems to be an age element as well - I used to get stopped all the time but airport officials stopped showing any interest in where I was planning to go, what I was planning to do, how much money I had, or what was in my suitcase around the time I turned 30.


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## dessiato (May 20, 2021)

brogdale said:


> It'll all be ANPR stuff, won't it?


Good point. I don't know but would expect so, especially as there are plans to expand the number of toll roads.

Of course it is simpler if you fly in. A quick stamp and off you go.

My understanding is that, like when you fly to US there will be a form you can complete during the flight.


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## MrSki (May 20, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Are travellers cheques even still a thing?


Don't ask me. My passport expired in 2006!


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## Artaxerxes (May 20, 2021)

MrSki said:


> Don't ask me. My passport expired in 2006!



Time for a bold Blue British Passport.

May as well get that single Brexit benefit.


----------



## existentialist (May 20, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Lordy, as well as going through my bank statements, they're planning on stamping passports at Calais?
> Revise my comment about Swanley; looks like we'll have to drive back to Swindon to join the queue for Dover.


To which the official French response will be...


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## Bahnhof Strasse (May 20, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> Seems to be an age element as well - I used to get stopped all the time but airport officials stopped showing any interest in where I was planning to go, what I was planning to do, how much money I had, or what was in my suitcase around the time I turned 30.




Not so sure, as it never happened to me in my teens or 20's either, and that included a lot of travel to Asia and the US as well as Europe.


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## The39thStep (May 20, 2021)

bimble said:


> i'm such an arsehole that i hope this rule does apply to my next door neighbour, who owns a house in the french alps where he does yoga holidays for paying guests from uk. Idk if he voted leave or not but remember him saying nothing would change at all in his opinion by which me meant nothing that would impact him personally. If it were to be applied it would probably make him cry because it would be inconvenient and that would be nice, i don't like him.


Jesus , one week it's a friend who owns a house in Liverpool and a static home in Spain , this week its a neighbour who owns the house next door and  has a yoga retreat in France.  Ever thought about writing for the Guardian?


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## bimble (May 20, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Jesus , one week it's a friend who owns a house in Liverpool and a static home in Spain , this week its a neighbour who owns the house next door and  has a yoga retreat in France.  Ever thought about writing for the Guardian?


yes, they foolishly rejected my short and hilarious piece about how difficult it is since brexit to find decent massage therapists for your cat .


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## Artaxerxes (May 20, 2021)

Bloke who negotiated the Brexit deal has now gone from Force Majeure to having to sign the deal under duress




Reminder the Conservatives have an 80 seat majority and could have done whatever the fuck they liked with the deal.


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## two sheds (May 20, 2021)

existentialist said:


> I would interpret the absence of "debit card" on that list as a significant thing.


Wankers. Although I do have a credit card which I use about once a year for large purchases to give me better protection and which is paid off by my debit card immediately.


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## existentialist (May 20, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Wankers. Although I do have a credit card which I use about once a year for large purchases to give me better protection and which is paid off by my debit card immediately.


I guess that any system which attempted to categorically establish how someone's funds were would be ludicrously intrusive, so they've gone for more generic options.


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## brogdale (May 20, 2021)

existentialist said:


> I guess that any system which attempted to categorically establish how someone's funds were would be ludicrously intrusive, so they've gone for more generic options.


Surely these things are all pretty theoretical unless you're a refugee or something, and the French state will have the pretext to kick you out?


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## The39thStep (May 20, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Credit card has been mentioned a couple of times now - is a debit card good enough? i dont have a credit card


Proof of earnings / enough money to survive only applies here if you are applying for residency not going on holidays . When I applied for mine showed them my online banking app but they weren’t interested in any case . 
There’s been a good couple of thousand of U.K. passengers arriving this week at Faro A bloke I know arrived Monday night , staying with a friend not a hotel , and aside from his passport the only thing border asked for was his covid test .


----------



## MrSki (May 20, 2021)

Who would have thought it.


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## ska invita (May 20, 2021)

MrSki said:


> Who would have thought it.



All part of the revolutionary plan: Capitalism In One Country

(only messing about)


----------



## ska invita (May 20, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Proof of earnings / enough money to survive only applies here if you are applying for residency not going on holidays . When I applied for mine showed them my online banking app but they weren’t interested in any case .
> There’s been a good couple of thousand of U.K. passengers arriving this week at Faro A bloke I know arrived Monday night , staying with a friend not a hotel , and aside from his passport the only thing border asked for was his covid test .


yeah surely these new rules have been in place a few months now, havent heard any horror stories (other than people coming to the UK and ending up in Yarls Fucking Wood), hopefully they'll keep it mellow at border control


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## existentialist (May 20, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Surely these things are all pretty theoretical unless you're a refugee or something, and the French state will have the pretext to kick you out?


Refugees are classified very differently. This is for visitors, either on a Schengen visa, or not needing one.

And yes - it's quite possible that they will not implement it, or not fully. But you've always got that bit of jeopardy.


----------



## dessiato (May 20, 2021)

MrSki said:


> Who would have thought it.



I've done exactly that. When I can get stuff from within the EU it is now my first choice. I look at, say, amazon UK then look at the various EU based equivalent sites to buy from.


----------



## MrSki (May 20, 2021)

From the article.



> CSO monthly goods trade data for March shows a 46 per cent spike to more than €3.1 billion in goods imported from the EU, compared to March 2020 when trade still took place under the old regime. New “third-country” trade arrangements for the UK kicked in when the Brexit transition period ended at the beginning of this year.
> 
> The data show a corresponding slump in British imports to the Republic, which fell by almost a third to less than €1 billion.


----------



## dessiato (May 20, 2021)

MrSki said:


> Who would have thought it.



I've done exactly that. When I can get stuff from within the EU it is now my first choice. I look at, say, amazon UK then look at the various EU equivalent sites to buy from.


----------



## two sheds (May 20, 2021)

dessiato said:


> I've done exactly that. When I can get stuff from within the EU it is now my first choice. I look at, say, amazon UK then look at the various EU equivalent sites to buy from.


So _you're_ why British exports are down


----------



## Pickman's model (May 20, 2021)

two sheds said:


> So _you're_ why British exports are down


No, it's corbyn's fault


----------



## dessiato (May 20, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> No, it's corbyn's fault


I was actually told this yesterday by my goddaughter. According to her everything would be worse if he he had got in, and it is his fault for not supporting Johnson. For someone with an MA she can be rather...ill-informed...


----------



## The39thStep (May 20, 2021)

Worth using an Amazon compare site . I got a Henry hoover from the U.K. after Brexit as it was cheaper even with delivery and got a refund of 3 euros as the import tax was overestimated . On the other hand I got 1100 pg tips from Amazon Spain as it was cheaper and got delivered within four days . Just ordered some grapefruit wheat beer from the German site .


----------



## Pickman's model (May 20, 2021)

dessiato said:


> I was actually told this yesterday by my goddaughter. According to her everything would be worse if he he had got in, and it is his fault for not supporting Johnson. For someone with an MA she can be rather...ill-informed...


Sadly even a doctorate doesn't make someone well informed


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## Pickman's model (May 20, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Worth using an Amazon compare site . I got a Henry hoover from the U.K. after Brexit as it was cheaper even with delivery and got a refund of 3 euros as the import tax was overestimated . On the other hand I got 1100 pg tips from Amazon Spain as it was cheaper and got delivered within four days . Just ordered some grapefruit wheat beer from the German site .


I wonder whether you'll be reordering the beer


----------



## The39thStep (May 20, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> I wonder whether you'll be reordering the beer


Had it in England , liked it then nice summer drink any see if memory is correct


----------



## existentialist (May 20, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> No, it's corbyn's fault


Corbyn's and dessiato's, jointly.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 20, 2021)

existentialist said:


> Corbyn's and dessiato's, jointly.


The first time auld dessy has been associated with such august company


----------



## editor (May 20, 2021)

MrSki said:


> Who would have thought it.



I'm sure someone will be along soon to explain why this is actually_ great news_ for UK businesses and workers.


----------



## dessiato (May 20, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Sadly even a doctorate doesn't make someone well informed


I suppose she deserves some leeway. Her father was a police super, and was a sergeant during the miner's strike. So this stupidity is probably inherited from that side of her family.


----------



## Supine (May 20, 2021)

editor said:


> I'm sure someone will be along soon to explain why this is actually_ great news_ for UK businesses and workers.



Not me!


----------



## Ax^ (May 20, 2021)

Would be even a little to below the belt even for me...


----------



## Raheem (May 20, 2021)

dessiato said:


> I was actually told this yesterday by my goddaughter. According to her everything would be worse if he he had got in, and it is his fault for not supporting Johnson. For someone with an MA she can be rather...ill-informed...


Sounds about average, I'd say.


----------



## Ax^ (May 22, 2021)




----------



## Badgers (May 23, 2021)




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## Badgers (May 24, 2021)

I wonder if the Daily Wail will start losing readers if it starts to post more realities of Brexit? 

Oakeshott is jusr another leave voter who thought everything would be flags and money. She knew what she was voting for.


----------



## Badgers (May 24, 2021)

I read that Canada has informed the UK they expect the same zero, tariff/quota deal as Australia. 

Not a surprise as most trade deals fall in line. We can expect any US trade deal to follow suit.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 24, 2021)

Badgers said:


> I read that Canada has informed the UK they expect the same zero, tariff/quota deal as Australia.
> 
> Not a surprise as most trade deals fall in line. We can expect any US trade deal to follow suit.


so 'bruiser' boris johnson has fucked it all up again


----------



## Badgers (May 24, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> so 'bruiser' boris johnson has fucked it all up again


Hopefully Liz Truss will step up


----------



## Badgers (May 24, 2021)

Oh wait... 





__





						Truss’s naivety on trade with Australia could leave the UK exposed | International trade | The Guardian
					

If the trade secretary agrees to Canberra’s demands for no tariffs on agriculture, it sets a dangerous precedent for other, bigger deals




					amp.theguardian.com


----------



## Pickman's model (May 24, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Hopefully Liz Truss will step up


never sure if it's her or another truss who wrote eats shoots and leaves


----------



## The39thStep (May 24, 2021)

I’m getting a bit confused here . On one hand frictionless and tariff free trade was lauded by some posters as the benefit of the EU on the other hand it’s isn’t with Australia?


----------



## MrSki (May 24, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> I’m getting a bit confused here . On one hand frictionless and tariff free trade was lauded by some posters as the benefit of the EU on the other hand it’s isn’t with Australia?


Well it is not very good for the environment swapping trading with your closest neighbours with trading with the other side of the world & hormone injected beef entering the UK will mean an end to any beef exports to the EU. Deal will benefit Australia a lot more than the UK.


----------



## MrSki (May 24, 2021)

So the UK left this for what shiitty agreements Liz Truss has managed to fuck up?


----------



## Pickman's model (May 24, 2021)

curious why the world health organisation is considered a reliable source on trade agreements


----------



## editor (May 24, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> View attachment 269985
> 
> curious why the world health organisation is considered a reliable source on trade agreements


Perhaps you could find a better one?

Here's their data http://rtais.wto.org/UI/PublicMaintainRTAHome.aspx


----------



## Badgers (May 24, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> View attachment 269985
> 
> curious why the world health organisation is considered a reliable source on trade agreements


Nutrition and travel health implications. I had to sit in a seminar on this a couple of years back.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 24, 2021)

editor said:


> Perhaps you could find a better one?
> 
> Here's their data http://rtais.wto.org/UI/PublicMaintainRTAHome.aspx


i thought the wto might have a clew


----------



## Peter Painter (May 24, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> View attachment 269985
> 
> curious why the world health organisation is considered a reliable source on trade agreements



Is it a missprint, maybe? It says at the bottom that the source is the WTO.


----------



## Badgers (May 24, 2021)

Peter Painter said:


> Is it a missprint, maybe? It says at the bottom that the source is the WTO.


The WTO are the main UN source but they work with a lot of other departments.


----------



## TopCat (May 24, 2021)

Peter Painter said:


> Is it a missprint, maybe? It says at the bottom that the source is the WTO.


Accurate then?


----------



## 2hats (May 24, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> I’m getting a bit confused here . On one hand frictionless and tariff free trade was lauded by some posters as the benefit of the EU on the other hand it’s isn’t with Australia?


Has the UK completed harmonisation with Australia yet?


----------



## TopCat (May 24, 2021)

2hats said:


> Has the UK completed harmonisation with Australia yet?


We have agreed to take all the unreconstructed racism they can ship.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 24, 2021)

TopCat said:


> We have agreed to take all the unreconstructed racism they can ship.


this is having knock-on effects on major shipping routes.


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## TopCat (May 24, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> this is having knock-on effects on major shipping routes.


Maybe the first full tanker of bigotry will sink.


----------



## two sheds (May 24, 2021)

Patel's doubtless hoping we can send immigrants and prisoners in return.


----------



## Peter Painter (May 24, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Accurate then?



No, I wasn't suggesting that!


----------



## brogdale (May 24, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> I’m getting a bit confused here . On one hand frictionless and tariff free trade was lauded by some posters as the benefit of the EU on the other hand it’s isn’t with Australia?


It's because tariff free trade between members of an economic union & single market established through a standardised system of laws and underpinned by threshold pricing controls of the CAP, is a long, long way removed from the global free-trade that ideological zealots like Truss envisage.


----------



## brogdale (May 24, 2021)

s'why the dumbo Leave-voting farmers are beginning to realise the error of their choice.


----------



## prunus (May 24, 2021)

brogdale said:


> s'why the dumbo Leave-voting farmers are beginning to realise the error of their choice.



Fwiw all the farmers I know (sheep and some cattle, Derbyshire hill farmers) were against brexit, and still are.


----------



## Badgers (May 24, 2021)

prunus said:


> Fwiw all the farmers I know (sheep and some cattle, Derbyshire hill farmers) were against brexit, and still are.




No doubt you are right but I saw a LOT of these (down south) ^ and not any remain


----------



## brogdale (May 24, 2021)

prunus said:


> Fwiw all the farmers I know (sheep and some cattle, Derbyshire hill farmers) were against brexit, and still are.


Fair enough.
Just that living in the South, when you drove around in 2016, there were plenty of Leave banners/posters up in fields/hedgerows.
tbf I have read somewhere that, like the rest of us, the vote was about 50:50.
But that still shows how gullible/credulous 50% were; Southern arable farmers had been buying Mercs for decades on the back of the CAP.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 24, 2021)

Badgers said:


> View attachment 269990
> 
> No doubt you are right but I saw a LOT of these (down south) ^ and not any remain


if you look on the other side you'll find out where all the remain ones went


----------



## TopCat (May 24, 2021)

Badgers said:


> View attachment 269990
> 
> No doubt you are right but I saw a LOT of these (down south) ^ and not any remain


Farmers more than anyone knew how the CAP worked and its destructive effects on farming .


----------



## brogdale (May 24, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Farmers more than anyone knew how the CAP worked and its destructive effects on farming .


It made the fuckers rich.


----------



## TopCat (May 24, 2021)

brogdale said:


> It made the fuckers rich.


Not all of them by any means. Mainly large landowners got the money. I’m glad set aside is gone.


----------



## The39thStep (May 24, 2021)

brogdale said:


> It's because tariff free trade between members of an economic union & single market established through a standardised system of laws and underpinned by threshold pricing controls of the CAP, is a long, long way removed from the global free-trade that ideological zealots like Truss envisage.


So they were lauding ‘ a standardised system of laws and underpinned by threshold pricing controls of the CAP’ ? God the mask is slipping .


----------



## Poot (May 24, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Not all of them by any means. Mainly large landowners got the money. I’m glad set aside is gone.


This isn't my experience of the BPS at all. It depends on the terms of the FBT but i have usually seen it going to the tenant.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (May 24, 2021)

brogdale said:


> It's because tariff free trade between members of an economic union & single market established through a standardised system of laws and underpinned by threshold pricing controls of the CAP, is a long, long way removed from the global free-trade that ideological zealots like Truss envisage.




Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism​


----------



## pseudonarcissus (May 24, 2021)

MrSki said:


> Well it is not very good for the environment swapping trading with your closest neighbours with trading with the other side of the world & hormone injected beef entering the UK will mean an end to any beef exports to the EU. Deal will benefit Australia a lot more than the UK.


it will mean the end of any food exports...the testing of manufactured food products to make sure the hormone injected imports don't get into manufactured export products will be prohibitive, as the government don't seem to be investing in food inspection infrastructure.


----------



## TopCat (May 24, 2021)

pseudonarcissus said:


> it will mean the end of any food exports...the testing of manufactured food products to make sure the hormone injected imports don't get into manufactured export products will be prohibitive, as the government don't seem to be investing in food inspection infrastructure.


You are predicting the end of food exports from the UK?


----------



## Pickman's model (May 24, 2021)

TopCat said:


> You are predicting the end of food exports from the UK?


all the more for us then


----------



## pseudonarcissus (May 24, 2021)

TopCat said:


> You are predicting the end of food exports from the UK?


to the EU


----------



## Badgers (May 24, 2021)

TopCat said:


> You are predicting the end of food exports from the UK?


What do you think will happen? 

Dig for victory?


----------



## TopCat (May 24, 2021)

Badgers said:


> What do you think will happen?
> 
> Dig for victory?


----------



## Badgers (May 24, 2021)

TopCat said:


> View attachment 269998


That should feed the population


----------



## TopCat (May 24, 2021)

Badgers said:


> That should feed the population


Dig up the golf courses in the first instance and plant spuds.


----------



## Artaxerxes (May 24, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Dig up the golf courses in the first instance and plant spuds.



Finally a Brexit policy I can vote for


----------



## pseudonarcissus (May 24, 2021)

TopCat said:


> View attachment 269998


----------



## TopCat (May 24, 2021)

pseudonarcissus said:


> View attachment 269999


Phwoar.


----------



## editor (May 24, 2021)

Badgers said:


> That should feed the population





> It shows that in one part of Birmingham, 98% of households don’t have access to a garden.











						One in eight British families has no access to a garden
					

Flats are far less likely to have a private or even shared garden, with 34% of flats in Britain having no access to one




					www.inyourarea.co.uk


----------



## Badgers (May 24, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Finally a Brexit policy I can vote for


As if the 'Brexit campaigners' grow or do anything productive  they just want cash, shares and division. Could not give a fuck about gardens or food.


----------



## brogdale (May 24, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism​
> View attachment 269995


Yeah, because understanding macro-economics makes your a capitalist, obvs!


----------



## brogdale (May 24, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> So they were lauding ‘ a standardised system of laws and underpinned by threshold pricing controls of the CAP’ ? God the mask is slipping .


That's exactly what it was and I can't say I'd noticed them ever masking that?


----------



## Artaxerxes (May 24, 2021)

Badgers said:


> As if the 'Brexit campaigners' grow or do anything productive  they just want cash, shares and division. Could not give a fuck about gardens or food.



Thats unfair to TopCat and others.

Though he's not running the campaign. The actual campaign managers love a bit of golf though. 


I wonder if we can get a campaign going to turn all golf courses to free parks (for environmental purposes naturally, not as part of the class war, cough cough)


----------



## brogdale (May 24, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Not all of them by any means. Mainly large landowners got the money. I’m glad set aside is gone.


Maybe not all, but they all certainly benefitted from a system that had a revenue floor allowing them to maximise production, (irrespective of the negative externalities for the environment & wider society) without any fear of price collapse.


----------



## brogdale (May 24, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Phwoar.


Tools or crops?


----------



## editor (May 24, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Thats unfair to TopCat and others.
> 
> Though he's not running the campaign. The actual campaign managers love a bit of golf though.
> 
> ...


If Brexit was all about getting rid of private golf clubs and turning them into community growing resources it might have got my vote.  

But, alas: 









						More than a third of golf clubs saw a ‘dramatic’ rise in membership last year
					

A survey of more than 200 golf clubs has found that more than 80 percent saw an increase in membership revenue in 2020, and nearly half an increase in green fee revenue.




					www.thegolfbusiness.co.uk


----------



## TopCat (May 24, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Maybe not all, but they all certainly benefitted from a system that had a revenue floor allowing them to maximise production, (irrespective of the negative externalities for the environment & wider society) without any fear of price collapse.





brogdale said:


> Tools or crops?


I always fancied all three.


----------



## Poot (May 24, 2021)

One of my many bugbears is that commons can be turned into golf courses with permission. That shouldn't be allowed.


----------



## TopCat (May 24, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Maybe not all, but they all certainly benefitted from a system that had a revenue floor allowing them to maximise production, (irrespective of the negative externalities for the environment & wider society) without any fear of price collapse.


Well the replacement scheme will have environmental considerations attached. A good thing.


----------



## Badgers (May 24, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Thats unfair to TopCat and others.
> 
> Though he's not running the campaign. The actual campaign managers love a bit of golf though.
> 
> ...


Also increase Fox hunting and shooting to encourage outdoor activities for the general population?


----------



## Badgers (May 24, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Well the replacement scheme will have environmental considerations attached. A good thing.


The government can be 100% trusted on this  

They hate property development (party donors) and love wildlife/environment.


----------



## krtek a houby (May 24, 2021)

Badgers said:


> As if the 'Brexit campaigners' grow or do anything productive  they just want cash, shares and division. Could not give a fuck about gardens or food.


fEUd


----------



## TopCat (May 24, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Also increase Fox hunting and shooting to encourage outdoor activities for the general population?


Shoot golfers.


----------



## brogdale (May 24, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Well the replacement scheme will have environmental considerations attached. A good thing.


If a polity adopts an agricultural policy that abandons any notion of food security and opens the domestic market to globally traded foodstuffs, there'll certainly be plenty of 're-wilding' going on.


----------



## Badgers (May 24, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Shoot golfers.


I would guess that 52% of Brexiteers are golfers. 

The other 48% have life bans from football clubs.


----------



## brogdale (May 24, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Well the replacement scheme will have environmental considerations attached. A good thing.


Says Johnson.


----------



## TopCat (May 24, 2021)

Badgers said:


> I would guess that 52% of Brexiteers are golfers.
> 
> The other 48% have life bans from football clubs.


Hehehe


----------



## Pickman's model (May 24, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Also increase Fox hunting and shooting to encourage outdoor activities for the general population?


i think the general population would be very happy to hunt one fox in particular


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (May 24, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Yeah, because understanding macro-economics makes your a capitalist, obvs!




Anarchy on the FTSE!


----------



## brogdale (May 24, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Anarchy on the FTSE!


That's more micro-economics tbh.


----------



## Raheem (May 24, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> I wonder if we can get a campaign going to turn all golf courses to free parks (for environmental purposes naturally, not as part of the class war, cough cough)


I bet you a fiver there's a unit in Downing Street currently talking bollocks to each other about turning farms into golf courses.


----------



## seeformiles (May 24, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> never sure if it's her or another truss who wrote eats shoots and leaves



That’s Lynne Truss but tbf there’s only a few letters in it,


----------



## Pickman's model (May 24, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Anarchy on the FTSE!


might start 'i am a capitalist - i am a profiteer'


----------



## Raheem (May 24, 2021)

No futures for yooooo!


----------



## MrSki (May 26, 2021)




----------



## Artaxerxes (May 27, 2021)




----------



## Badgers (May 27, 2021)

It is staggering that anyone believed or voted for this. Hopefully there is another snitch in the government who can out the (already known to most) lies and cost of this farce. 

Who in their right mind thought this shower of cunts could deliver anything like Brexit.


----------



## Badgers (May 28, 2021)




----------



## Maggot (May 28, 2021)

Hospitality 'struggling to fill thousands of jobs'
					

Restaurants, cafes and pubs are particularly short of waiting staff and chefs, UK Hospitality says.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## Raheem (May 29, 2021)

Maggot said:


> Hospitality 'struggling to fill thousands of jobs'
> 
> 
> Restaurants, cafes and pubs are particularly short of waiting staff and chefs, UK Hospitality says.
> ...


TBF, this is probably more because of Covid than Brexit. Every pub, cafe, snack bar and roast turnip stand is hiring at the same time. It's the same story in other countries.


----------



## krtek a houby (May 29, 2021)

Raheem said:


> No futures for yooooo!



No future for EU


----------



## stdP (May 29, 2021)

Raheem said:


> TBF, this is probably more because of Covid than Brexit. Every pub, cafe, snack bar and roast turnip stand is hiring at the same time. It's the same story in other countries.



It's a somewhat interesting hybrid. In London at least, a significant chunk of the hospitality workforce has left, likely for good. Covid ensured that swathes of hospitality jobs were lost and brexit's a big factor in them not being taken up again by the (largely european) workforce. My partner's a former hotel manager who, after being on furlough, was made redundant last june along with most of the other floor staff. 85% of the workforce were non-UK citizens (and half of those were irish) and most of those without family ties left the UK and there's no sign of them returning. My partner's been inundated with job offers since the unlockening started (their old hotel were nice enough to give first refusal on a position), but all for less money than they were paid previously. Living in London on a hospitality job was barely tenable at the old rates and is even less so now given that rental costs (both for homes and retail units) have remained stratospheric compared to earnings. The job is shit, the wages are shit and getting shitter in real terms, and even if they wanted to there's significant problems getting back in to the country.

That said, I'm sure our lovely Home Office are already making generous allowances for EU citizens coming over here for job interviews.

The picture's likely different outside of London where much less of the hospitality workforce were european, but it's still an endemic issue throughout the UK according to various hospitality news reports.









						Covid unveils the reality of Brexit for hospitality - Hospitality & Catering News
					

Hospitality’s people and skills shortages laid dormant throughout the Covid pandemic, now, those issues have reawakened, all too rudely. If anyone needs background on the current people and skills problem, and the looming catastrophe associated with it… here’s our take on it and that of several...




					www.hospitalityandcateringnews.com
				












						UK hospitality takes massive hit after EU citizens ‘went back home'
					

The London Economic - Many hospitality businesses didn't survive the pandemic, UK Hospitality chief executive Kate Nicholls said. - News




					www.thelondoneconomic.com
				








__





						How Covid and Brexit have caused a staffing crisis in Hospitality | Onrec
					

Online Recruitment magazine for HR Directors, Personnel Managers, Job Boards and Recruiters with information on the internet recruitment industry




					www.onrec.com


----------



## The39thStep (May 29, 2021)

My son just got a grand payrise managing a cafe/bar in Manchester to keep him there due to staff shortages. He said when they interviewed staff for vacancies there were far fewer non  UK applicants and all successful applicants haggled over salary.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (May 29, 2021)

stdP said:


> That said, I'm sure our lovely Home Office are already making generous allowances for EU citizens coming over here for job interviews.



including a few days' free accommodation









						Some post-Brexit EU jobseekers end up in detention upon arrival
					

A small number of jobseekers arriving into the UK have been sent to immigration removal centres, held in airport detention rooms or expelled. Among them




					www.cityam.com


----------



## bemused (May 29, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> My son just got a grand payrise managing a cafe/bar in Manchester to keep him there due to staff shortages. He said when they interviewed staff for vacancies there were far fewer non  UK applicants and all successful applicants haggled over salary.



I love it that people are getting paid more. I wonder what'll happen when you can make more in Costa than care homes?


----------



## Ax^ (May 29, 2021)

not in the same league but we suppose to have a new managing director coming over from France for our office in London

now its taking her the best party of 6 week now to work through the process of getting a working visa


now imagine if it was for some minimum wage hospitality job
were you have to find accommodation in London as well

not surprised they find lack of people willing to roll through the process


----------



## pseudonarcissus (May 29, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> now imagine if it was for some minimum wage hospitality job
> were you have to find accommodation in London as well
> 
> not surprised they find lack of people willing to roll through the process


"You'll usually need to be paid at least £25,600 per year or £10.10 per hour, whichever is higher."

No visas for minimum wage hospitality jobs....Priti Patel is controlling the borders.


----------



## Ax^ (May 29, 2021)

Fair point*


but  if MD of my company is struggle with the process not sure if even if you have the required Salary
its an easy process

*ponders how the lovely Tory party will attempt to exploit people to fill labour shortages and resolve the requirement for higher wages


----------



## pseudonarcissus (May 29, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> *ponders how the lovely Tory party will attempt to exploit people to fill labour shortages and resolve the requirement for higher wages


Probably child labour.


----------



## Ax^ (May 29, 2021)

more than likely just more tinkering with universal credit

work will set you free after all


----------



## bemused (May 29, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> *ponders how the lovely Tory party will attempt to exploit people to fill labour shortages and resolve the requirement for higher wages


They'll bring in a working holiday visa.


----------



## The39thStep (May 29, 2021)

bemused said:


> I love it that people are getting paid more. I wonder what'll happen when you can make more in Costa than care homes?


Gives an incentive for the trade unions in the care homes to get their fingers out.


----------



## bemused (May 29, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Gives an incentive for the trade unions in the care homes to get their fingers out.



I've a likely unfulfilled hope the government evaluate social care to a profession rather than something they need to box tick.


----------



## The39thStep (May 29, 2021)

bemused said:


> I've a likely unfulfilled hope the government evaluate social care to a profession rather than something they need to box tick.


The care industry needs to be brought under public control, integrated with health, be properly funded and have a skills, retention, and recruitment strategy.


----------



## existentialist (May 29, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> Fair point*
> 
> 
> but  if MD of my company is struggle with the process not sure if even if you have the required Salary
> ...


Well, they'll almost certainly start by upping the beasting of benefits claimants - "there's jobs out there, so if you don't take one, you're just a scrounger", the usual form.


----------



## Lucy Fur (May 30, 2021)

pseudonarcissus said:


> "You'll usually need to be paid at least £25,600 per year or £10.10 per hour, whichever is higher."
> 
> No visas for minimum wage hospitality jobs....Priti Patel is controlling the borders.


Not even enough to cover your own food take out bill... #buyyourownfuckingfoodboris


----------



## NoXion (May 30, 2021)

Turns out that relying on cheap imported labour willing to put up with shitty conditions has its limits. Maybe they could start by offering better wages.


----------



## andysays (May 30, 2021)

NoXion said:


> Turns out that relying on cheap imported labour willing to put up with shitty conditions has its limits. *Maybe they could start by offering better wages.*


That's just crazy talk.

Next you'll be suggesting British employers should train their own employees rather than rely on imported workers trained in their countries of origin.


----------



## The39thStep (May 30, 2021)

NoXion said:


> Turns out that relying on cheap imported labour willing to put up with shitty conditions has its limits. Maybe they could start by offering better wages.


‘But where will the cheap imported labour work ?’


----------



## Dogsauce (May 30, 2021)

brogdale said:


> It's because tariff free trade between members of an economic union & single market established through a standardised system of laws and underpinned by threshold pricing controls of the CAP, is a long, long way removed from the global free-trade that ideological zealots like Truss envisage.


Parklife.


----------



## Badgers (May 31, 2021)

Brexit lorry park 'ruins night sky' for Kent residents
					

People living near a customs site in Kent say they have 'lost our night sky' to light pollution.



					www.bbc.co.uk
				






> The 66-acre Sevington inland border facility, close to the M20, operates through the night, providing customs checks for hauliers entering or leaving the UK by ferry at Dover or Hoylhead, or by Eurotunnel from Folkestone.


----------



## gosub (May 31, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Brexit lorry park 'ruins night sky' for Kent residents
> 
> 
> People living near a customs site in Kent say they have 'lost our night sky' to light pollution.
> ...


Anybody fancy a PhD? The impact thats going to have on phototaxic insects iis going to have 'interesting 'knock ons for the rest of the ecosystem


----------



## Badgers (May 31, 2021)

gosub said:


> Anybody fancy a PhD? The impact thats going to have on phototaxic insects iis going to have 'interesting 'knock ons for the rest of the ecosystem


It is only a 66 acre' teething' problem. On the whole Brexit is going really well.


----------



## krtek a houby (May 31, 2021)

Badgers said:


> It is only a 66 acre' teething' problem. On the whole Brexit is going really well.



Who really bothers with the night sky, anyway?


----------



## Badgers (May 31, 2021)




----------



## bemused (May 31, 2021)

andysays said:


> That's just crazy talk.
> 
> Next you'll be suggesting British employers should train their own employees rather than rely on imported workers trained in their countries of origin.


We all know if there is any public health staffing shortage the UK government will be running schemes to attract foreign care works, nurses etc to the UK.


----------



## gosub (May 31, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> Who really bothers with the night sky, anyway?


The photo taxic insects in a ten mile radius


----------



## krtek a houby (May 31, 2021)

gosub said:


> The photo taxic insects in a ten mile radius


Where do they stand on Brexit, though?


----------



## two sheds (May 31, 2021)

nowhere within a ten mile radius at night, clearly


----------



## krtek a houby (May 31, 2021)

two sheds said:


> nowhere within a ten mile radius at night, clearly



Or, given the light pollution, not so clearly


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (May 31, 2021)

Tomorrow is the 1st of June, there's hardly any night anyway, honestly, those remainers will moan about anything


----------



## Artaxerxes (May 31, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> Where do they stand on Brexit, though?



Now we've left the EU we can eat the smug little bastards


----------



## krtek a houby (May 31, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Now we've left the EU we can eat the smug little bastards



Aren't they taxic, though?


----------



## Artaxerxes (May 31, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> Aren't they taxic, though?



Project fear


----------



## gosub (May 31, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> Aren't they taxic, though?


Phototaxic. Movement influenced by light....like moths and a fuck ton of other bugs. It'll have as big an impact as the change in the number of roadkill will do on carrion


----------



## krtek a houby (May 31, 2021)

gosub said:


> Phototaxic. Movement influenced by light....like moths and a fuck ton of other bugs. It'll have as big an impact as the change in the number of roadkill will do on carrion


Keep calm and carrion


----------



## MrSki (May 31, 2021)




----------



## Badgers (May 31, 2021)

MrSki said:


>



We had enough of experts didn't we?


----------



## MrSki (May 31, 2021)

Badgers said:


> We had enough of experts didn't we?


It is over a five year period so maybe a lot of it has already happened with the re-location of banks & their funds that are no longer subject to UK tax.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 31, 2021)

Badgers said:


> We had enough of experts didn't we?


Yeh no one likes experts when they point out you're wrong


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (May 31, 2021)

Quite an interesting bit at the end of that article:




> Ireland’s cumulative services exports from 2016 to 2019 were £126bn higher than projections based on the trends up to 2016. Aston’s professors argue that this is because Ireland has won UK business after Brexit. Irish economists disagree.
> 
> “Ireland’s services exports boom has clearly mainly been due to ICT exports (Facebook, Google etc),” said Conall Mac Coille, chief economist at Ireland’s largest stockbroker Davy, referring to the information, communications and technology sector. “These companies were already operating in Ireland prior to the referendum and have seen explosive growth since then.”



Ireland, Europe’s hidden tax haven.


----------



## Badgers (May 31, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Quite an interesting bit at the end of that article:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hardly new news that. Sickening as it may be.


----------



## Raheem (May 31, 2021)

Badgers said:


> We had enough of experts didn't we?


And exports.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 31, 2021)

Badgers said:


> We had enough of experts didn't we?


And ex-pats


----------



## two sheds (May 31, 2021)

And expats.


Eta: grrrrrr


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 1, 2021)

Heinz is moving production of ketchup, mayonnaise and salad cream as a direct result of Brexit.


----------



## MrSki (Jun 1, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Heinz is moving production of ketchup, mayonnaise and salad cream as a direct result of Brexit.


Sauce?


----------



## bimble (Jun 1, 2021)

The investment "will create up to 50 new full-time jobs, the company said" Absolutely brilliant news.
I had a racist uncle used to work at the Heinz factory, sad he didn't live to see this day.


----------



## Yossarian (Jun 1, 2021)

History will tell whether the gain to the British economy from the upgrading of the Wigan plant will outweigh the cost of treating those permanently traumatised by witnessing Boris Johnson visiting the plant and singing "Ketchup's coming home."


----------



## Badgers (Jun 1, 2021)

bimble said:


> The investment "will create up to 50 new full-time jobs, the company said" Absolutely brilliant news.
> I had a racist uncle used to work at the Heinz factory, sad he didn't live to see this day.


I wonder what 'incentive' came from the government/taxpayer?


----------



## mojo pixy (Jun 1, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Heinz is moving production of ketchup, mayonnaise and salad cream as a direct result of Brexit.



This is the same company that ten years ago bought Cadbury, pledged to keep their Keynsham factory open then closed it as soon as the deal was done.


----------



## bimble (Jun 1, 2021)

Badgers said:


> I wonder what 'incentive' came from the government/taxpayer?


I'd be surprised if salad cream & tinned spaghetti with meatballs are big sellers over there in Europe so maybe it just made sense to bring those machines over here, so we can make and eat them all by ourselves whilst sending the profit to america.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 1, 2021)

I suppose there was a certain inevitability that a thread like this would end up debating the tax-dodging/cost-minimisation locational decisions of foreign owned/controlled corporations as vindication for the preferred neoliberal alternative backed in 2016's shit-sandwich buffet.


----------



## bemused (Jun 1, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Ireland, Europe’s hidden tax haven.



It's not that hidden, it's been to go-to location for companies like Apple for years because it's a great place to keep your pot of gold.


----------



## Spymaster (Jun 1, 2021)

bemused said:


> It's not that hidden, it's been to go-to location for companies like Apple for years because it's a great place to keep your pot of gold.


See also Google, Facebook, eBay, Microsoft, Paypal ....


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 1, 2021)

Badgers said:


> I wonder what 'incentive' came from the government/taxpayer?


Biden's manifesto included incentives for relocation back to the States, Labour should be advocating the same.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 1, 2021)

bimble said:


> I'd be surprised if salad cream & tinned spaghetti with meatballs are big sellers over there in Europe so maybe it just made sense to bring those machines over here, so we can make and eat them all by ourselves whilst sending the profit to america.


You see tinned spaghetti, baked beans, ketchup, salad cream , tinned meatballs etc in most Portuguese supermarkets tbh.


----------



## andysays (Jun 1, 2021)

bemused said:


> We all know if there is any public health staffing shortage the UK government will be running schemes to attract foreign care works, nurses etc to the UK.


Oh well, if the UK government are going to do that, we'd better just accept it as inevitable then *  *


----------



## brogdale (Jun 1, 2021)

bemused said:


> We all know if there is any public health staffing shortage the UK government will be running schemes to attract foreign care works, nurses etc to the UK.


I can say from personal, family experience that, if East Kent is any indicator, the already existing shortage of careworkers has been significantly worsened by Brexit and the more recent 'unlocking' of the service sector.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 1, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Biden's manifesto included incentives for relocation back to the States, Labour should be advocating the same.


yes, exiling boris johnson to the land of his birth would win quite a few votes for starmer's lacklustre crew


----------



## bemused (Jun 1, 2021)

andysays said:


> Oh well, if the UK government are going to do that, we'd better just accept it as inevitable then **


You don't think a healthcare worker shortage is inevitable?


----------



## andysays (Jun 1, 2021)

bemused said:


> You don't think a healthcare worker shortage is inevitable?


Of course it isn't inevitable, it's the result of political decisions. 

If the government invests in training more health care workers in this country (whether they are originally from this country or not) and improves the pay and conditions of new and existing health workers, there's no reason why there needs to he a shortage. 

It's only because governments have preferred over many years to import pre-trained foreign workers and pay most health care and other workers less than they should that such shortages exist.


----------



## bemused (Jun 1, 2021)

andysays said:


> It's only because governments have preferred over many years to import pre-trained foreign workers and pay most health care and other workers less than they should that such shortages exist.


They do this because the electorate doesn't want to pay for it through taxation. And that's the rub.


----------



## andysays (Jun 1, 2021)

bemused said:


> They do this because the electorate doesn't want to pay for it through taxation. And that's the rub.


Oh well, if you say the electorate doesn't want to pay for it through taxation, we'd better just accept that as inevitable too...


----------



## bemused (Jun 1, 2021)

andysays said:


> Oh well, if you say the electorate doesn't want to pay for it through taxation, we'd better just accept that as inevitable too...


Reality typically is inevitable.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jun 1, 2021)

Government and business have raced to the bottom and vilified taxes for the last 40 years. The electorate can accept taxes if it sees a purpose for them and they are fair, however nobody is making that argument and all to often the lie is that "taxes penalise everyone, even you!" when really taxes aimed at high earners and businesses pay for us all. Its those fuckers who won't pay.


----------



## editor (Jun 1, 2021)

andysays said:


> Of course it isn't inevitable, it's the result of political decisions.
> 
> If the government invests in training more health care workers in this country (whether they are originally from this country or not) and improves the pay and conditions of new and existing health workers, there's no reason why there needs to he a shortage.
> 
> It's only because governments have preferred over many years to import pre-trained foreign workers and pay most health care and other workers less than they should that such shortages exist.


And Brexit will fix that, how?


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jun 1, 2021)

editor said:


> And Brexit will fix that, how?



Magic socialism with Johnson


----------



## bemused (Jun 1, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Government and business have raced to the bottom and vilified taxes for the last 40 years. The electorate can accept taxes if it sees a purpose for them and they are fair, however nobody is making that argument and all to often the lie is that "taxes penalise everyone, even you!" when really taxes aimed at high earners and businesses pay for us all. Its those fuckers who won't pay.


I think when it comes to social care the costs are so enormous they just don't know where to start. We can all mock Johnson for his lack of a plan but when May suggested charging people for it and capping how much you'd ultimately have to pay it was labelled the dementia tax and promptly scrapped. If even promising to cap peoples cost liability is something that can be easily attacked any solution is a long way off.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 1, 2021)

bemused said:


> They do this because the electorate doesn't want to pay for it through taxation. And that's the rub.


Firstly they don’t have to raise taxes to do this secondly if they did they can tax the rich , tax large companies and lastly surveys have shown that people would pay more tax for better health .


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 1, 2021)

bemused said:


> I think when it comes to social care the costs are so enormous they just don't know where to start. We can all mock Johnson for his lack of a plan but when May suggested charging people for it and capping how much you'd ultimately have to pay it was labelled the dementia tax and promptly scrapped. If even promising to cap peoples cost liability is something that can be easily attacked any solution is a long way off.


Ageing population is not unique to the U.K.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jun 1, 2021)

bemused said:


> I think when it comes to social care the costs are so enormous they just don't know where to start. We can all mock Johnson for his lack of a plan but when May suggested charging people for it and capping how much you'd ultimately have to pay it was labelled the dementia tax and promptly scrapped. If even promising to cap peoples cost liability is something that can be easily attacked any solution is a long way off.



Mays plan was a massive inheritance squeeze, anger towards it was the cumulation of decades of being told that housing is the only asset that matters (and the interest on housing that proves it). You'd be far better with higher rate and business tax increases which again have been constantly rubbished for the last 40 years as "bad for business" nevermind that most small businesses earn less than 80k and much of the higher taxes affect the big bad boys who have an arsenal of ways to avoid tax facilitated by successive governments.


----------



## andysays (Jun 1, 2021)

editor said:


> And Brexit will fix that, how?


I don't think anyone here has said that Brexit alone will fix it. I certainly haven't and am not claiming that now.

If it does happen, it will be the result of the collective organisation and action of working people to force government to take the necessary measures.


----------



## editor (Jun 1, 2021)

andysays said:


> I don't think anyone here has said that Brexit alone will fix it. I certainly haven't and am not claiming that now.
> 
> If it does happen, it will be the result of the collective organisation and action of working people to force government to take the necessary measures.


I'm pretty sure there was at least one poster here who was empathic that Brexit would lead to better wages and conditions. But if Brexit isn't going to bring any improvements for workers, what was the point of it?


----------



## andysays (Jun 1, 2021)

editor said:


> I'm pretty sure there was at least one poster here who was empathic that Brexit would lead to better wages and conditions. But if Brexit isn't going to bring any improvements for workers, what was the point of it?


Maybe you should identify this mystery poster and direct your question to them.


----------



## editor (Jun 1, 2021)

andysays said:


> Maybe you should identify this mystery poster and direct your question to them.


But you agree that Brexit is unlikely to bring any improvements for workers?


----------



## bemused (Jun 1, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Firstly they don’t have to raise taxes to do this secondly if they did they can tax the rich , tax large companies and lastly surveys have shown that people would pay more tax for better health .


Maybe someone will fix it someday, none of the governments in my living memory has come close. I hope so, it's terrifying to stare down the barrel of end of life care worrying if you'll tank your life savings in the process.


----------



## andysays (Jun 1, 2021)

editor said:


> But you agree that Brexit is unlikely to bring any improvements for workers?


Any improvements for workers will be the result of actions that workers take themselves.

But Brexit changes the context and the fact that the UK government can't so easily import pre-trained health workers from (especially poorer) EU countries will potentially mean they will have to improve training and pay for new and existing workers, especially if health workers campaign effectively around those issues.

Or, if we're asking each other loaded questions, do you think it's a healthy situation for the British health service to be reliant on lower paid foreign trained workers, either for workers in Britain or the health services in the countries whose trained workers the UK effectively poaches?


----------



## editor (Jun 1, 2021)

andysays said:


> Any improvements for workers will be the result of actions that workers take themselves.
> 
> But Brexit changes the context and the fact that the UK government can't so easily import pre-trained health workers from (especially poorer) EU countries will potentially mean they will have to improve training and pay for new and existing workers, especially if health workers campaign effectively around those issues.
> 
> Or, if we're asking each other loaded questions, do you think it's a healthy situation for the British health service to be reliant on lower paid foreign trained workers, either for workers in Britain or the health services in the countries whose trained workers the UK effectively poaches?


I'm all for massive taxation of the rich to provide well paid work for those who want it, totally free NHS services, social housing for all and free access to Europe for all without all the bullshit Brexit has brought in its wake.  But saying what I'd like ain't going to make it happen.

And I don't see Brexit  as forwarding any of those aims at all, and,  as you all know, on a personal level it's already fucked me over for work.


----------



## JimW (Jun 1, 2021)

bemused said:


> Reality typically is inevitable.


If you look at how right economic liberals have shifted the post-war political ground often flying full in the face of external economic realities you should realise this is bollocks.


----------



## bemused (Jun 1, 2021)

editor said:


> And I don't see Brexit  as forwarding any of those aims at all, and,  as you all know, on a personal level it's already fucked me over for work.


It's never been clear to me, apart from immigration, how the EU prevented the UK from proceeding any domestic policy agenda. I'm ambivalent about Brexit but the central thesis that the EU stopped the UK from being awesome has never held much water with me.


----------



## bemused (Jun 1, 2021)

andysays said:


> But Brexit changes the context and the fact that the UK government can't so easily import pre-trained health workers from (especially poorer) EU countries will potentially mean they will have to improve training and pay for new and existing workers, especially if health workers campaign effectively around those issues.


I think you grossly underestimate any governments preference for quick solutions. It's easy for them to create a visa and recruitment scheme for foreign health care workers. I'd say the majority of nurses I came across in the two months I spent in hospital last year were from outside the EU; Africa and the Philippines.


----------



## andysays (Jun 1, 2021)

bemused said:


> I think you grossly underestimate any governments preference for quick solutions. It's easy for them to create a visa and recruitment scheme for foreign health care workers. I'd say the majority of nurses I came across in the two months I spent in hospital last year were from outside the EU; Africa and the Philippines.


And that is why I'm not suggesting and have never suggested that Brexit is any sort of substitute for workers taking collective action.


----------



## ska invita (Jun 1, 2021)

..the light is fading and I am missing home terribly. Parsons left to fetch firewood last week and hasn't been seen again since. We fear the worst, but daren't search for him in case the same fate, whatever it was, befalls us. So we are stuck. To pass the time, Smedley and I have begun again to debate the pros and cons of Brexit. After 6 years we seem not to grow tired of this topic. I am thankful for it. But surely we cannot continue in this way for much longer. I fear for my sanity....


----------



## editor (Jun 1, 2021)

andysays said:


> And that is why I'm not suggesting and have never suggested that Brexit is any sort of substitute for workers taking collective action.


Do you think Brexit has increased or decreased the likelihood of workers taking collective action, or made absolutely zero difference?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 1, 2021)

editor said:


> And I don't see Brexit  as forwarding any of those aims at all, and,  as you all know, on a personal level it's already fucked me over for work.




Wasn't your band supposed to be doing a big tour of the US and Canada this year? If so, how has Brexit 'fucked you over'?


----------



## editor (Jun 1, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Wasn't your band supposed to be doing a big tour of the US and Canada this year? If so, how has Brexit 'fucked you over'?



Sorry, what has that got to with the band having absolutely zero European dates booked for any point in the future? 
A lot of our work was in Europe and Brexit has absolutely fucked us over as I've explained to you multiple times. I'm not interested in repeating myself so I'll say it for the last time: shitty fucking Brexit has screwed over bands, musicians and the live industries. And that's not my opinion, it's well documented fact.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jun 1, 2021)

editor said:


> Do you think Brexit has increased or decreased the likelihood of workers taking collective action, or made absolutely zero difference?



Collective action, traditionally, has closely tracked wider dominant economic conditions. For example, where there is an inexhaustible pool of reserve labour confidence is low, people are generally accepting of lower pay/worsened conditions because they aren't stupid and disputes |(and trade union membership levels) tend to decrease. When the opposite conditions apply the opposite effect often materialises. 

But, and I think this is important, I've never heard of a dispute or any collective action arising or not as a result of worker deliberation about our membership of the EU. Stripping industrial disputes of their wider context - what sector is it, is there a union, is it fit for purpose, what is the membership density, what is the issue, historic labour/management relations, how and where is bargaining done etc - isn't going to generate any serious discussion.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 1, 2021)

editor said:


> Sorry, what has that got to with the band having absolutely zero European dates booked for any point in the future?
> A lot of our work was in Europe and Brexit has absolutely fucked us over as I've explained to you multiple times. I'm not interested in repeating myself so I'll say it for the last time: shitty fucking Brexit has screwed over bands, musicians and the live industries. And that's not my opinion, it's well documented fact.




Yeah we know, but your band had dates lined up for the UK, US and Canada and none lined up for Europe at all. I was just enquiring how Brexit had absolutely fucked you over for work, seeing as you had none planned in Europe for this year anyway. Also if you can tour the US & Canada, why not Europe, it's currently a very similar process to do so?


----------



## gosub (Jun 1, 2021)

andysays said:


> Any improvements for workers will be the result of actions that workers take themselves.
> 
> But Brexit changes the context and the fact that the UK government can't so easily import pre-trained health workers from (especially poorer) EU countries will potentially mean they will have to improve training and pay for new and existing workers, especially if health workers campaign effectively around those issues.
> 
> Or, if we're asking each other loaded questions, do you think it's a healthy situation for the British health service to be reliant on lower paid foreign trained workers, either for workers in Britain or the health services in the countries whose trained workers the UK effectively poaches?


I'm not sure if you have ever been outside a Manilla employment agency.  Exporting healthworkers is a significant part of their economy. 
That said Phillipines is one of the countries currently experiencing shortages of medical oxygen, I hope BOC goes out of their way to help


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 1, 2021)

gosub said:


> I'm not sure if you have ever been outside a Manilla employment agency.




I don't think anyone who hasn't should be allowed to post further on this thread tbh.


----------



## editor (Jun 1, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Yeah we know, but your band had dates lined up for the UK, US and Canada and none lined up for Europe at all. I was just enquiring how Brexit had absolutely fucked you over for work, seeing as you had none planned in Europe for this year anyway. Also if you can tour the US & Canada, why not Europe, it's currently a very similar process to do so?


You really are clueless on this topic and I've really no idea why you keep on showing your ignorance.

The costs of a band touring the US are exponentially higher than playing Europe for a whole host of reasons. 

And that's what only a tiny percentage of UK bands who play Europe ever make it to the US. 

It is not a similar process. In fact no one even knows what the current process is for bands to tour Europe because Brexit is such a fucking mess. It used to be incredibly straightforward and could be sorted with minimum expense. But this has already been pointed out to you. 

As an aside, I was looking to book some European bands for my club nights in Brixton but neither they or me have any idea if is logistically possible right now. It's a total clusterfuck.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 1, 2021)

editor said:


> You really are clueless on this topic and I've really no idea why you keep on showing your ignorance.
> 
> The costs of a band touring the US are exponentially higher than playing Europe for a whole host of reasons.
> 
> ...




And things have changed. 

Ignorant clueless person who has already sent many professional artists to the EU since January can offer you a clue, you seem determined not to listen and instead lament what is no longer possible. That's not going to help you get touring again though.

A glimpse of what a clueless could enlighten you with; your band, travelling by train as it does, with guitars and drumsticks as luggage doesn't need a carnet for travel in and around the EU...


----------



## editor (Jun 1, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> And things have changed.
> 
> Ignorant clueless person who has already sent many professional artists to the EU since January can offer you a clue, you seem determined not to listen and instead lament what is no longer possible. That's not going to help you get touring again though.
> 
> A glimpse of what a clueless could enlighten you with; your band, travelling by train as it does, with guitars and drumsticks as luggage doesn't need a carnet for travel in and around the EU...


Anyone who claims that touring the US "is a very similar process to touring Europe" _really_ doesn't know anything abut the economics and logistics of playing America.

Exactly which ' professional artists' artists have you sent to the EU since January? Could you name some please because I don't know a single musician or band from my large circle of friends who has played a single date. 

And as for the carnet, there's this: 



> Whether or not a deal is done before 31st December 2020, ATA carnets should be available for temporary exports. They cover many items people take on business trips but can not be used for merchandise you wish to sell.
> 
> The probability is that import duty and VAT will need to be paid on any merchandising items, in advance of travelling. An additional up front cost and one which may eat into profits.







__





						Merchandising In The EU After Brexit | Dynamic Dox
					

Performers and other professions can rely on selling merchandise, from T-shirts, to photocards, part of keeping our creative culture visible in the EU.




					www.ata-carnet.uk


----------



## editor (Jun 1, 2021)

And here's how 'easy' it is:











						Guidance for Musicians Working in the EU in post-Brexit
					

What every musician and band needs to know when working in Europe.




					musiciansunion.org.uk


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 1, 2021)

editor said:


> Anyone who claims that touring the US "is a very similar process to touring Europe" _really_ doesn't know anything abut the economics and logistics of playing America.
> 
> Exactly which ' professional artists' artists have you sent to the EU since January? Could you name some please because I don't know a single musician or band from my large circle of friends who has played a single date.
> 
> ...



Not all artists are musicians. A shocker I know.

I will not name my customers on here, suffice to say that those who are musicians have not played anywhere due to Covid and no other reason.

You do not need an ATA carnet for Europe, they cost around £450 each. You can use Duplicate List which is free, would have thought the Musicians' Union would be aware of this, seems not though.

The process of touring Europe is now very similar to that of touring the US. You can no longer just wander in, play some gigs, flog some tat and piss off home without a thought to paying taxes in your host country, you need visas to enter and you need to make sure you don't use the host country's facilities without contributing towards them. Of course America is easier in that respect as you only need one visa for the whole country, whereas currently you would need one for each European country you visit

I would have thought that you may take advantage of someone on your boards who actually does this shit day in, day out, but it seems in your world I know 'nothing' about this.


----------



## editor (Jun 1, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Not all artists are musicians. A shocker I know.
> 
> I will not name my customers on here, suffice to say that those who are musicians have not played anywhere due to Covid and no other reason.
> 
> ...


If you don't name some of the artists/bands, then there's absolutely way of finding out if they have the_ slightest relevance_ to bands at my level.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 1, 2021)

editor said:


> If you don't name some of the artists/bands, then there's absolutely way of finding out if they have the_ slightest relevance_ to bands at my level.




ffs, most of my customers who identify as artists are not musicians, I did just say that. And I am certainly not going to publicly name them here, will PM you if you're that bothered. They do however need special visas now to visit the EU, unless they use a work-around that their clever travel agent has set up for them.


----------



## andysays (Jun 1, 2021)

gosub said:


> I'm not sure if you have ever been outside a Manilla employment agency.  Exporting healthworkers is a significant part of their economy.
> That said Phillipines is one of the countries currently experiencing shortages of medical oxygen, I hope BOC goes out of their way to help


I've never been outside a Manilla employment agency, but I am certainly aware that the Philippines has a long tradition of exporting health and other workers - my MiL came to London from the Philippines in the late 60s as a trained midwife and spent much of her working life in the NHS, although not as a midwife.

But whilst I'm obviously glad on a personal level that she came, it's still the case that employers in the UK and other rich western countries have historically exploited and continue to exploit poorer countries which train their young people and then see that investment disappear overseas.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 1, 2021)

editor said:


> Anyone who claims that touring the US "is a very similar process to touring Europe" _really_ doesn't know anything abut the economics and logistics of playing America.
> 
> Exactly which ' professional artists' artists have you sent to the EU since January? Could you name some please because I don't know a single musician or band from my large circle of friends who has played a single date.
> 
> ...


On the merch front it might be a good idea to get it made in Europe to avoid vat and customs charges, then pick it up while you're out there. When you're able to go, like.


----------



## prunus (Jun 1, 2021)

andysays said:


> I've never been outside a Manilla employment agency, <snip>



Not in any way a useful addition to the debate, but I just wanted to put my hand up and say I’ve never not been outside a Manilla employment agency in all my born days.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 1, 2021)

prunus said:


> Not in any way a useful addition to the debate, but I just wanted to put my hand up and say I’ve never not been outside a Manila employment agency in all my born days.




You and andysays are just slackers. But to be honest I have been and it weren't nothing to get excited about,


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 1, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> You and andysays are just slackers. But to be honest I have been and it weren't nothing to get excited about,


I too have never been in a mea


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 1, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> I too have never been in a mea




Nae bother, what we need to know is have you ever been outside one? (no specifics on how far away actually applies here, standards on the boards are not what they once were but I would care to suggest a couple of hundred metres, as opposed to 8000 miles or so...)


----------



## gosub (Jun 1, 2021)

andysays said:


> But whilst I'm obviously glad on a personal level that she came, it's still the case that employers in the UK and other rich western countries have historically exploited and continue to exploit poorer countries which train their young people and then see that investment disappear overseas.


That investment sees remittances contributing 10% of GDP.


----------



## Supine (Jun 1, 2021)




----------



## bemused (Jun 1, 2021)

Supine said:


> View attachment 271377


What Tim really means is 'fuck I can't hire people on shit wages anymore because they make more at Costa and all think I'm a wanker'


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 1, 2021)

bemused said:


> What Tim really means is 'fuck I can't hire people on shit wages anymore because they make more at Costa and all think I'm a wanker'




Yep, gotta pay wages that folk can live on now, it's tragic.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jun 1, 2021)

Supine said:


> View attachment 271377



Beautiful to see Martin’s double movement taking him into the ideological hinterland of continuity remain. It’s where he belongs.


----------



## MrSki (Jun 1, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Yep, gotta pay wages that folk can live on now, it's tragic.


It is about time that some of the biggest companies actually paid their staff enough to live on & not rely on UC to top up their wages. It has been a subsidy to Tescos & Sainsburys et al for years. Don't get me started on the fucking work programme where these companies who make billions make use of forced labour.


----------



## bemused (Jun 1, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Yep, gotta pay wages that folk can live on now, it's tragic.


He knew what he was voting for.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 1, 2021)

MrSki said:


> It is about time that some of the biggest companies actually paid their staff enough to live on & not rely on UC to top up their wages. It has been a subsidy to Tescos & Sainsburys et al for years. Don't get me started on the fucking work programme where these companies who make billions make use of forced labour.


Yep, the rentier economy relies on piss-poor pay and 'welfare' + private debt.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 1, 2021)

MrSki said:


> It is about time that some of the biggest companies actually paid their staff enough to live on & not rely on UC to top up their wages.



Seems they are in some sectors, various posters in trades report as much, Frau Bahn is in plumbing, rates are sky-high, jobs plentiful. Many people did vote out for this very reason, it's not particularly pretty and makes many a liberal feel ill at ease, but there you have it.  Clearly it is not a panacea, only a whibbling twat would suggest it could be, but for those in trades the current situation is blooming.


----------



## Yossarian (Jun 1, 2021)

The hospitality industry in France is facing similar issues  - though as in the UK and elsewhere, the real problem seems to be a wage shortfall, not a labour shortfall.









						Wanted in France: Thousands of Workers as Hotels and Restaurants Reopen (Published 2021)
					

As the world’s most visited country prepares for a long-awaited economic reopening, hospitality businesses warn they are facing a labor shortfall.




					www.nytimes.com


----------



## existentialist (Jun 1, 2021)

Supine said:


> View attachment 271377


Squaring circles like there'll be no tomorrow...


----------



## MrSki (Jun 1, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Seems they are in some sectors, various posters in trades report as much, Frau Bahn is in plumbing, rates are sky-high, jobs plentiful. Many people did vote out for this very reason, it's not particularly pretty and makes many a liberal feel ill at ease, but there you have it.  Clearly it is not a panacea, only a whibbling twat would suggest it could be, but for those in trades the current situation is blooming.


I am sure that any tradesperson is well chuffed with increased rates of pay but like a lot of builders there is a shortage of materials & their labourers are going to cost more if a pint down spoons goes up. The reality could be inflation not seen since the 90s which could see interest rates rising & homeowners being fucked over. 
Still I ain't too bothered cos if you have nothing there is not much to lose.


----------



## Humberto (Jun 2, 2021)

If any goodwill has been damaged, I've no interest in elitists punishing eachother. Class solidarity before individual states and their disputes.


----------



## ska invita (Jun 2, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Seems they are in some sectors, various posters in trades report as much, Frau Bahn is in plumbing, rates are sky-high, jobs plentiful. Many people did vote out for this very reason, it's not particularly pretty and makes many a liberal feel ill at ease, but there you have it.  Clearly it is not a panacea, only a whibbling twat would suggest it could be, but for those in trades the current situation is blooming.


theyve always been sky high, last visit from a boiler repairer i had was £140 for under an hours simple work
anything breaking hits the pit of the stomach when youve got no money in bank
the idea that trades prices are going to go up is ridiculous, its regular workers basic wages that need to go up not their pisstake prices


----------



## editor (Jun 2, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> On the merch front it might be a good idea to get it made in Europe to avoid vat and customs charges, then pick it up while you're out there. When you're able to go, like.


Apart from the extra hassle and having to use different suppliers in different countries (and lose out on bulk discounts) there's always the fear that it won't get delivered on time or go to the right place.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 2, 2021)

ska invita said:


> theyve always been sky high, last visit from a boiler repairer i had was £140 for under an hours simple work
> anything breaking hits the pit of the stomach when youve got no money in bank
> the idea that trades prices are going to go up is ridiculous, its regular workers basic wages that need to go up not their pisstake prices




Mug. Frau Bahn’s current company charges £65 an hour.


----------



## Badgers (Jun 2, 2021)




----------



## andysays (Jun 2, 2021)

editor said:


> Apart from the extra hassle and having to use different suppliers in different countries (and lose out on bulk discounts) there's always the fear that it won't get delivered on time or go to the right place.


Is it really necessary to go into this all over again on this thread, especially when there is another thread dedicated to this specific subject?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 2, 2021)

editor said:


> Apart from the extra hassle and having to use different suppliers in different countries (and lose out on bulk discounts) there's always the fear that it won't get delivered on time or go to the right place.


Maybe one of your circle of friends might help, and once you're in the EU it shouldn't be any hassle to take merch from say France to subsequent countries on your tour. So I don't think you'd need to deal with a supplier in each country. You could put some business fire and flames' way, I've always found them very reliable T-Shirts › Fire and Flames Music and Clothing anyway, there's my mite and I  don't think we need to pray this thread's indulgence any more; as andysays there's a whole thread for further chat about this


----------



## Badgers (Jun 2, 2021)

NI Protocol unsustainable in current form - Frost - BBC News
					

Lord Frost could meet European Commission Vice President Maros Sefcovic next week.




					www.bbc.co.uk
				






> The UK's Brexit Minister has reiterated his belief that the NI Protocol is unsustainable in its current form.



Who negotiated this farce? Hopefully Lord Frost will hold them accountable.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 2, 2021)

I might be switching to continuity remain as  I've just discovered that Openshaw Pork Scratchings no longer deliver to Europe. Surely a separate trade deal could be negotiated and a separate thread set up on here.


----------



## dessiato (Jun 2, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> You see tinned spaghetti, baked beans, ketchup, salad cream , tinned meatballs etc in most Portuguese supermarkets tbh.


I never saw them in Porto, but there’s a relatively small number of Brits compared to the south.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jun 2, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> I might be switching to continuity remain as  I've just discovered that Openshaw Pork Scratchings no longer deliver to Europe. Surely a separate trade deal could be negotiated and a separate thread set up on here.



I was delighted to discover, on my last visit to Bilbao, that the basques make their own scratchings. Slightly fluffier and less threatening to your choppers than the type you buy in ale houses here but a more than commendable attempt.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 2, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I was delighted to discover, on my last visit to Bilbao, that the basques make their own scratchings. Slightly fluffier and less threatening to your choppers than the type you buy in ale houses here but a more than commendable attempt.


Yes they do something similar here called , torresmos softer and less crunchy more tooth friendly. One of the butchers down the road does his own. However, the Black Country and North Manchester ones are head and shoulders above them. Last year I bought a box of fifteen or twenty Openshaw ones and took a couple of packets into the bar and offered the Portuguese a sample. They loved them kept getting asked if I could bring more and where could they buy them.


----------



## Spymaster (Jun 2, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> I might be switching to continuity remain as  I've just discovered that Openshaw Pork Scratchings no longer deliver to Europe. Surely a separate trade deal could be negotiated and a separate thread set up on here.





The39thStep said:


> Last year I bought a box of fifteen or twenty Openshaw ones and took a couple of packets into the bar and offered the Portuguese a sample. They loved them kept getting asked if I could bring more and where could they buy them.



I spy a smuggling opportunity.

PM sent.


----------



## dessiato (Jun 2, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I was delighted to discover, on my last visit to Bilbao, that the basques make their own scratchings. Slightly fluffier and less threatening to your choppers than the type you buy in ale houses here but a more than commendable attempt.


I make my own. It’s easy, but time consuming.

Soak, overnight, the pork belly. Then rinse before slow boiling till all the water has evaporated and the fat rendered. Continue to cook them in their own fat until done.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 2, 2021)

editor said:


> I'm pretty sure there was at least one poster here who was empathic that Brexit would lead to better wages and conditions. But if Brexit isn't going to bring any improvements for workers, what was the point of it?


I think much of the lexit vote was to fuck shit up so that there was the possibility of something better. No one expected a Tory government to make things better for the workers. No one expects a tg tmtbftw. Much of the leave vote too was two fingers to the fat pigs in Westminster. Anyway we've only just got on the brexit rollercoaster, there's years of fun to come yet


----------



## bimble (Jun 2, 2021)

How does a person get into a situation where they're a fan of pointless acronyms and a hater of capital letters at the same time.


----------



## existentialist (Jun 2, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> I think much of the lexit vote was to fuck shit up so that there was the possibility of something better. No one expected a Tory government to make things better for the workers. No one expects a tg tmtbftw. Much of the leave vote too was two fingers to the fat pigs in Westminster. Anyway we've only just got on the brexit rollercoaster, there's years of fun to come yet


Yeah. I think I am just going to have to learn, for the benefit of my blood pressure, if nothing else, not to get pissed off with people swearing that black is white, just to overcome their cognitive dissonance at the Brexit Dream revealing itself as scorched earth and ashes, all the way down.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 2, 2021)

bimble said:


> How does a person get into a situation where they're a fan of pointless acronyms and a hater of capital letters at the same time.




FIIK


----------



## klang (Jun 2, 2021)

bimble said:


> How does a person get into a situation where they're a fan of pointless acronyms and a hater of capital letters at the same time.


dk tbh, will rsrch asap, iykwim?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 2, 2021)

bimble said:


> How does a person get into a situation where they're a fan of pointless acronyms and a hater of capital letters at the same time.


They're after recruits at the soc for abbrev, send a postcard to them at bm sfa


----------



## glitch hiker (Jun 2, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> I think much of the lexit vote was to fuck shit up so that there was the possibility of something better. No one expected a Tory government to make things better for the workers. No one expects a tg tmtbftw. *Much of the leave vote too was two fingers to the fat pigs in Westminster*. Anyway we've only just got on the brexit rollercoaster, there's years of fun to come yet


I think that's a bit of a misconception. We have a society poisoned by years of right wing bullshit + total abandonment by the poltical class. That of course is a simplistic one sentence analysis.

Anyway we are, sadly, where we are. On a road to isolation and desperation. 

source: People’s Stated Reasons for Voting Leave or Remain – CSI Nuffield



> Several different surveys and opinion polls have asked Britons why they voted the way they did in the EU referendum. The two main reasons people voted Leave were ‘immigration’ and ‘sovereignty’, whereas the main reason people voted Remain was ‘the economy’.
> Analysis of data from the Centre for Social Investigation’s longitudinal survey on attitudes to Brexit bolsters these conclusions.
> Among four possible reasons for voting Leave, ‘to teach British politicians a lesson’ is ranked last by an overwhelming majority of Leave voters, contrary to the claim that Brexit was a ‘protest vote’.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jun 2, 2021)

dessiato said:


> I make my own. It’s easy, but time consuming.
> 
> Soak, overnight, the pork belly. Then rinse before slow boiling till all the water has evaporated and the fat rendered. Continue to cook them in their own fat until done.





The39thStep said:


> Yes they do something similar here called , torresmos softer and less crunchy more tooth friendly. One of the butchers down the road does his own. However, the Black Country and North Manchester ones are head and shoulders above them. Last year I bought a box of fifteen or twenty Openshaw ones and took a couple of packets into the bar and offered the Portuguese a sample. They loved them kept getting asked if I could bring more and where could they buy them.



Never tried the north Manchester scratching (it'd be coals to Newcastle stuff round here) but I've promised to take samples of the Black Country scratching to this bar we go to in Bilbao the next time we go over.

dessiato your scratchings sound delicious. Not sure pork belly is used in the Black Country, more 'the sweepings up' I believe...


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 2, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Never tried the north Manchester scratching (it'd be coals to Newcastle stuff round here) but I've promised to take samples of the Black Country scratching to this bar we go to in Bilbao the next time we go over.



You'll need to hide it, taking animal products in to the EU is now verboten. 

Plugging pork scratchings


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 2, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> You'll need to hide it, taking animal products in to the EU is now verboten.
> 
> Plugging pork scratchings


You can get them on Amazon ( vat free apparently) but it’s a brand I’m not keen on and the postage is exorbitant. I’ll have to wait till my sister and bother in law come over in September . In the meantime however I’ve just put in an order for two large pork pies from Bury market which a mate parents from Bolton are bringing over at the end of the month .


----------



## dessiato (Jun 2, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Never tried the north Manchester scratching (it'd be coals to Newcastle stuff round here) but I've promised to take samples of the Black Country scratching to this bar we go to in Bilbao the next time we go over.
> 
> dessiato your scratchings sound delicious. Not sure pork belly is used in the Black Country, more 'the sweepings up' I believe...


There's a version which is just pig skin but my way you have the crisp skin, the fat, and any bits of meat that are there. The best I've ever had are in Aranda de Duero where a big chunk is cut up into bite sized pieces. A cold beer or large glass of local wine with a plateful of these...


----------



## discokermit (Jun 2, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> I might be switching to continuity remain as  I've just discovered that Openshaw Pork Scratchings no longer deliver to Europe. Surely a separate trade deal could be negotiated and a separate thread set up on here.


pork scratchings from wigan?
i will tell you but dont tell anyone else, dont know if they deliver but this is the only mass produced scratching i eat K.V.E. Original - 40g


----------



## andysays (Jun 2, 2021)

I think someone needs to start a special thread just to discuss the post Brexit market in pork scratchings. 

Such an important subject really doesn't deserve to be buried in this otherwise uninteresting thread...


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jun 2, 2021)

discokermit said:


> pork scratchings from wigan?
> i will tell you but dont tell anyone else, dont know if they deliver but this is the only mass produced scratching i eat K.V.E. Original - 40g



KVE scratchings are my scratching of choice as well. The connoisseurs choice of pork based snack. The basques don’t know what treats await them...


----------



## discokermit (Jun 2, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Never tried the north Manchester scratching (it'd be coals to Newcastle stuff round here) but I've promised to take samples of the Black Country scratching to this bar we go to in Bilbao the next time we go over.
> 
> dessiato your scratchings sound delicious. Not sure pork belly is used in the Black Country, more 'the sweepings up' I believe...


"sweepings up"?
kinda. more skimmed off.


the best scratchings are leaf scratchings,

"they came about as a by-product of the lard making industry. Lard made from the "leaf" of the pig (the tissue surrounding the kidneys) is superior to other types of lard, and when the leaf is clarified to make the lard the tissues and bits of meat remain. I was told long ago that the remaining tissues were then compressed by a sort of cider press device (the reason they ended up in a big block) and were somehow cooked - although I imagine baked rather than fried. The result is flaky rather than crispy, with an intense porky flavour - reminiscent of parma ham"

 from Leaf Scratchings from Coopers Family Butchers, Darlaston, West Midlands


----------



## dessiato (Jun 2, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> KVE scratchings are my scratching of choice as well. The connoisseurs choice of pork based snack. The basques don’t know what treats await them...


In response I give you chichirones


----------



## Yossarian (Jun 2, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Yes they do something similar here called , torresmos softer and less crunchy more tooth friendly. One of the butchers down the road does his own.



If there's a Filipino food store in the area,  their chicharon might be crunchier.


----------



## discokermit (Jun 2, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> KVE scratchings are my scratching of choice as well. The connoisseurs choice of pork based snack. The basques don’t know what treats await them...


the king of scratchings.
best is when you get a tiny little lump of dried blood.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 2, 2021)

andysays said:


> I think someone needs to start a special thread just to discuss the post Brexit market in pork scratchings.
> 
> Such an important subject really doesn't deserve to be buried in this otherwise uninteresting thread...


We tried that with another issue but it just kept cropping up on any Brexit thread


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jun 2, 2021)

discokermit said:


> the king of scratchings.
> best is when you get a tiny little lump of dried blood.



My wife has refused to eat them since she discovered one covered in pig hair.

South Birmingham ai she


----------



## MrSki (Jun 2, 2021)




----------



## MrSki (Jun 2, 2021)

Back on topic but staying with food.


----------



## discokermit (Jun 2, 2021)

going in to the european community with arms full of scratchings, fully prepared to try some of their "wine" in return,









						Watch Black Country Food - BFI Player
					

Tasting the plain, good 'fittle' of the Black Country - just remember to pull the hairs out of those pork scratchings.




					player.bfi.org.uk


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 2, 2021)

MrSki said:


> Back on topic but staying with food.



Have you absolutely nothing to contribute to the pork scratchings issue?


----------



## MrSki (Jun 2, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Have you absolutely nothing to contribute to the pork scratchings issue?


 I do like a good old pork scratching but have never had any Iberian ones.


----------



## discokermit (Jun 2, 2021)

funny, in the black country we have leaf scratchings. the champagne of scratchings, the beluga caviar of scratchings, people dont give a shit. if it was made by southern european peasants and called "graffiare le foglie" or "rascarse la hoja" the middle classes in britain would be queuing up outside their local deli for a bit of it.


----------



## DJWrongspeed (Jun 2, 2021)

glitch hiker said:


> source: People’s Stated Reasons for Voting Leave or Remain – CSI Nuffield


Thank you glitch, very revealing. Laws & Immigration it is then.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jun 2, 2021)

DJWrongspeed said:


> Thank you glitch, very revealing. Laws & Immigration it is then.



It’s based on a survey of 3,000 people carried out by an opinion poll company so it’s not that revealing or particularly rigorous in terms of methodology. 

There are a raft of other studies - quoted on here on various threads - that offer a different perspective


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 2, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> It’s based on a survey of 3,000 people carried out by an opinion poll company so it’s not that revealing or particularly rigorous in terms of methodology.
> 
> There are a raft of other studies - quoted on here on various threads - that offer a different perspective


Always amazes me how so many continuity remainers don’t seem to have ever sat down with someone who voted leave and had a discussion .


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jun 2, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Always amazes me how so many continuity remainers don’t seem to have ever sat down with someone who voted leave and had a discussion .



Much better to rely on a half baked academic survey based on data obtained by a polling company. Better that is if you want to erroneously paint leave voters as racist flag waver types...


----------



## dessiato (Jun 2, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Always amazes me how so many continuity remainers don’t seem to have ever sat down with someone who voted leave and had a discussion .


I have, on a number of occasions. Every time I’ve made my points I’ve been ridiculed and told I don’t know what I’m talking about because I no longer live in the U.K., and should keep my opinions to myself. When I point out I worked for a U.K. company, and pay U.K. tax and NI I’m still told to mind my own business. Some of my family, Brexit voters, no longer talk to me, and haven’t for 3 years or more.

In the conversations we did have I’ve never been given a reason for Brexit other than the desire to regain sovereignty (whatever that is) and to restrict the number of immigrants in the U.K.


----------



## bimble (Jun 2, 2021)

what is 'continuity remainers'?
the only recent mention on the internet looks like Guido Fawkes. the rest's all 5 years old.


----------



## Dystopiary (Jun 2, 2021)

OK, Pickman's model - what is tgtmtbftw? 

These Government Twats Mean That Brexit's For The Wealthy?


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 2, 2021)

dessiato said:


> I have, on a number of occasions. Every time I’ve made my points I’ve been ridiculed and told I don’t know what I’m talking about because I no longer live in the U.K., and should keep my opinions to myself. When I point out I worked for a U.K. company, and pay U.K. tax and NI I’m still told to mind my own business. Some of my family, Brexit voters, no longer talk to me, and haven’t for 3 years or more.
> 
> In the conversations we did have I’ve never been given a reason for Brexit other than the desire to regain sovereignty (whatever that is) and to restrict the number of immigrants in the U.K.


I have friends who voted remain and have never fallen out with them over the issue . Obviously I don’t know personally and have never met any of the lunatic fringe .


----------



## Spymaster (Jun 2, 2021)

Dystopiary said:


> OK, Pickman's model - what is tgtmtbftw?



Tits gits twat manky turd balls fuck tiggy wanker


----------



## editor (Jun 2, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> It’s based on a survey of 3,000 people carried out by an opinion poll company so it’s not that revealing or particularly rigorous in terms of methodology.
> 
> There are a raft of other studies - quoted on here on various threads - that offer a different perspective


3,000 people is still a decent sample size





__





						Sample Size: How Many Survey Participants Do I Need?
					

How to determine the correct sample size for a survey.



					www.sciencebuddies.org


----------



## editor (Jun 2, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Always amazes me how so many continuity remainers don’t seem to have ever sat down with someone who voted leave and had a discussion .



No idea what a 'continuity remainer' is, but I've certainly had plenty of sit down discussions with what I suppose you'd call 'continuity leavers.'

I can't see I've ever heard many compelling reasons why Brexit has been worth all the division, acrimony and cost, much like here.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 2, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> It’s based on a survey of 3,000 people carried out by an opinion poll company so it’s not that revealing or particularly rigorous in terms of methodology.
> 
> There are a raft of other studies - quoted on here on various threads - that offer a different perspective


With one of the most obvious methodological weaknesses prone to conceal the 'two-fingers' motivation being that the categories are always pre-determined as a list of rational options. that's always going to underplay the motivations more firmly anchored in the affective domain.


----------



## dessiato (Jun 2, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> I have friends who voted remain and have never fallen out with them over the issue . Obviously I don’t know personally and have never met any of the lunatic fringe .


A colleague of mine, lives in Jerez, operates his own business, lives with his Spanish girlfriend, voted Brexit. It was, he says, an anti Tory protest vote.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 2, 2021)

dessiato said:


> A colleague of mine, lives in Jerez, operates his own business, lives with his Spanish girlfriend, voted Brexit. It was, he says, an anti Tory protest vote.


 Sock it to the man!


----------



## andysays (Jun 2, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Much better to rely on a half baked academic survey based on data obtained by a polling company. Better that is if you want to erroneously paint leave voters as racist flag waver types...


That's anti-creative racist flag waver types, if you don't mind...


----------



## andysays (Jun 2, 2021)

editor said:


> No idea what a 'continuity remainer' is, but I've certainly had plenty of sit down discussions with what I suppose you'd call 'continuity leavers.'
> 
> *I can't see I've ever heard many compelling reasons* why Brexit has been worth all the division, acrimony and cost, much like here.


I can't say this comes as much of a surprise.

Given that you were and still are strongly against Brexit, I would expect that reasons compelling to those of us who wanted to Leave won't be compelling for you, just as many of the reasons you consider compelling for Remaining aren't that compelling for those of us who chose to Leave.


----------



## glitch hiker (Jun 2, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> It’s based on a survey of 3,000 people carried out by an opinion poll company so it’s not that revealing or particularly rigorous in terms of methodology.
> 
> There are a raft of other studies - quoted on here on various threads - that offer a different perspective


If you have better evidence I'm happy to take a look. 









						Voting Leave: what were the underlying factors behind the Brexit vote?
					

The outcome of the 2016 UK EU membership referendum was rather shocking as many polls preceding the referendum pointed towards a majority for the continued participation of the UK in the EU. In this research report we try to understand the underlying reasons which may have led a majority of...




					www.kbc.com
				












						Making sense of the Brexit tide of reaction and the reality of the racist vote - New Politics
					

The Leave / Brexit vote in the referendum came in the end as a surprise, a narrow win for Remain was expected. This may be because the core Leave vote was in the run-down white working class communities of the now desolate English and Welsh industrial zones. A population trapped in conditions of...




					newpol.org
				




While I'm loathe to support Ashcroft there's his poll





__





						How the UK voted on Brexit, and why - a refresher - Lord Ashcroft Polls
					





					lordashcroftpolls.com
				




most working class didn't vote leave.


----------



## bimble (Jun 2, 2021)

Strongest predictor for voting leave was owning property wasnt it.
oh yeah here it is Mind the Gap: Why Wealthy Voters Support Brexit by Jane Green, Raluca L. Pahontu :: SSRN


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 2, 2021)

glitch hiker said:


> I think that's a bit of a misconception.


never mind


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 2, 2021)

Dystopiary said:


> OK, Pickman's model - what is tgtmtbftw?
> 
> These Government Twats Mean That Brexit's For The Wealthy?


No one expected a Tory government to make things better for the workers. No one expects a tg tmtbftw.
so a tg tmtbftw obviously a tory government to make things better for the workers. 

if you find abbreviations which have already been explained hard on the auld grey cells perhaps you'd be better off on another less challenging site.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 2, 2021)

editor said:


> 3,000 people is still a decent sample size
> 
> 
> 
> ...


yeh right because size is all that matters. perhaps geographical spread and age distribution (not to mention sex and class) ought to be in there somewhere.


----------



## Dystopiary (Jun 2, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> No one expected a Tory government to make things better for the workers. No one expects a tg tmtbftw.
> so a tg tmtbftw obviously a tory government to make things better for the workers.
> 
> if you find abbreviations which have already been explained hard on the auld grey cells perhaps you'd be better off on another less challenging site.


FYYC.


----------



## JimW (Jun 2, 2021)

brogdale said:


> With one of the most obvious methodological weaknesses prone to conceal the 'two-fingers' motivation being that the categories are always pre-determined as a list of rational options. that's always going to underplay the motivations more firmly anchored in the affective domain.


This is similar to what I was going to say, the "sovereignty" category strikes me as a bubble-speak catch-all that sort of covers but in many ways misses the hostility to a distant political juggernaut.


----------



## ska invita (Jun 2, 2021)

bimble said:


> Strongest predictor for voting leave was owning property wasnt it.
> oh yeah here it is Mind the Gap: Why Wealthy Voters Support Brexit by Jane Green, Raluca L. Pahontu :: SSRN


Tories delivering for their core voters 








						UK house prices jump by 10.9%, could speed up further- Nationwide
					

British house prices jumped by an annual 10.9%, the most innearly seven years, and they look set to accelerate further as people seek new homes after the pandemic, mortgage lender Nationwide said.




					www.reuters.com


----------



## brogdale (Jun 2, 2021)

JimW said:


> This is similar to what I was going to say, the "sovereignty" category strikes me as a bubble-speak catch-all that sort of covers but in many ways misses the hostility to a distant political juggernaut.


And as I've wittered on about before on here, I remember speaking with neighbours etc back in 2016 around my way who cited 'sovereignty' as a motivator..._because we all want to keep the Queen, don't we?_


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jun 2, 2021)

brogdale said:


> With one of the most obvious methodological weaknesses prone to conceal the 'two-fingers' motivation being that the categories are always pre-determined as a list of rational options. that's always going to underplay the motivations more firmly anchored in the affective domain.



Precisely. Having looked at the polling questions participants were asked to choose from a list rather than interviewed as to their motivations and allowed to speak in their own voice.


----------



## philosophical (Jun 2, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Much better to rely on a half baked academic survey based on data obtained by a polling company. Better that is if you want to erroneously paint leave voters as racist flag waver types...



Leave voters are the type that voted for the whole of the UK to leave the whole of the EU.
Two separate systems divided by a border.
Including a land border on the island of Ireland.
Leave voters are still waiting to get what they voted for, and remain voters are still waiting for leave voters to describe in practical detail how the line of separation between the whole of the UK will operate on the island of Ireland, to enable ‘leave’ to be made manifest.
In the absence of any solution to be suggested it leaves a vacuum, and that space is somewhere for flag waving racists to move their hateful racist flag engraved Petri dish to in order to fester more xenophobic hatred.
A lot of assumptions about the racist nature of leave voters could have been avoided, if the leave voters had suggested a real practical peaceful universally accepted solution to the land border taking into account the reality on the island of Ireland.
Until leave voters come up with a solution to what they have called on, my assumption is they’re racists...especially anti Irish racists.
Continually declaring they voted leave for good reasons and not because of hatred would be more credible if leave voters suggested a border solution. Whinging and whining that it’s unfair they’re viewed by some as racists is a diddums reaction to something they called on all by themselves.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jun 2, 2021)

glitch hiker said:


> If you have better evidence I'm happy to take a look.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You might start by reading your own links...

From the KBC report "Hence, those who voted ‘Leave’, did so despite evidence-based research on the negative impact of leaving on conventional macroeconomic measures of economic performance such as GDP. However, as the paragraphs above illustrate, it might be argued that those voting leave came significantly from groups who already felt marginalised from the fruits of strong economic performance, such as those experiencing less access to public services or further education and this might render potential economic losses from Brexit less important to them. Instead, for these groups, “pure” Brexit arguments centred on ‘taking back control’ lost in the existing UK-EU relationship and highlighted issues such as sovereignty, avoiding EU bureaucracy and stopping UK financial flows towards the EU. These drivers were amplified by a more general sense of displacement and a loss of identity that emphasised considerations such as migration, dissatisfaction with and disconnect from political institutions and the ‘establishment’ These are often related to the context in which the referendum took place. .


----------



## Dystopiary (Jun 2, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Tories delivering for their core voters
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well I've never encountered a remotely good argument in favour of Brexit from anyone who's skint.


----------



## glitch hiker (Jun 2, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> You might start by reading your own links...
> 
> From the KBC report "Hence, those who voted ‘Leave’, did so despite evidence-based research on the negative impact of leaving on conventional macroeconomic measures of economic performance such as GDP. However, as the paragraphs above illustrate, it might be argued that those voting leave came significantly from groups who already felt marginalised from the fruits of strong economic performance, such as those experiencing less access to public services or further education and this might render potential economic losses from Brexit less important to them. Instead, for these groups, “pure” Brexit arguments centred on ‘taking back control’ lost in the existing UK-EU relationship and highlighted issues such as sovereignty, avoiding EU bureaucracy and stopping UK financial flows towards the EU. These drivers were amplified by a more general sense of displacement and a loss of identity that emphasised considerations such as migration, dissatisfaction with and disconnect from political institutions and the ‘establishment’ These are often related to the context in which the referendum took place. .


I was posting those links in respect of the claim that people voted leave because "Much of the leave vote too was two fingers to the fat pigs in Westminster." 
I guess you can interpret those votes accordingly, and maybe I'm just not scholarly enough, but I don't get that interpretation from the above. Sorry. 



Pickman's model said:


> never mind


If you have better evidence, please. Like I said I've no problem being corrected.


----------



## bimble (Jun 2, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Tories delivering for their core voters
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yep, its absolutely mental. The whole stamp duty holiday was probably stupider even than eat out to help out, cos this house price bonanza would have happened anyway.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 2, 2021)

glitch hiker said:


> If you have better evidence, please. Like I said I've no problem being corrected.


i don't need any better evidence being as nothing you have submitted contradicts my statement.


----------



## discokermit (Jun 2, 2021)

this is what the so called anti racist liberals want to be a part of,


----------



## gosub (Jun 2, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> I might be switching to continuity remain as  I've just discovered that Openshaw Pork Scratchings no longer deliver to Europe. Surely a separate trade deal could be negotiated and a separate thread set up on here.


Something something pigs ear


----------



## glitch hiker (Jun 2, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> i don't need any better evidence being as nothing you have submitted contradicts my statement.


I just asked if you _had_ any better evidence. Why get testy about it?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 2, 2021)

discokermit said:


> this is what the so called anti racist liberals want to be a part of,



it does seem a strange use for it being as it's more usually used (as in i think the united states and canada) in public order situations or against demonstrators.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 2, 2021)

glitch hiker said:


> I just asked if you _had_ any better evidence. Why get testy about it


oh, in that case 'yes'


----------



## glitch hiker (Jun 2, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> oh, in that case 'yes'


So why not share it?


----------



## existentialist (Jun 2, 2021)

andysays said:


> I can't say this comes as much of a surprise.
> 
> Given that you were and still are strongly against Brexit, I would expect that reasons compelling to those of us who wanted to Leave won't be compelling for you, just as many of the reasons you consider compelling for Remaining aren't that compelling for those of us who chose to Leave.


Not wanting to get into the postural hair-splitting too much, but is asking someone who is evidently committed to a particular - and far-reaching - policy what they were expecting to get out of it really such an unreasonable thing to do?

I haven't gone as far as to look for _compelling _reasons from Leave voters - any reason would have done - but the best I've ever managed to get is some handwavery about immigration, bullshit about regulations (straight banana type stuff), and a lot of rantiness about "sovereignty". All of which is fairly transparently not looking like any likely consequence of Brexit.

About the most "compelling" reason I've heard so far has been people admitting that it was a protest vote.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 2, 2021)

glitch hiker said:


> So why not share it?


yes, i had better evidence. not sure where i've put it tho.


----------



## existentialist (Jun 2, 2021)

philosophical said:


> Leave voters are the type that voted for the whole of the UK to leave the whole of the EU.
> Two separate systems divided by a border.
> Including a land border on the island of Ireland.
> Leave voters are still waiting to get what they voted for, and remain voters are still waiting for leave voters to describe in practical detail how the line of separation between the whole of the UK will operate on the island of Ireland, to enable ‘leave’ to be made manifest.
> ...


TBF, I think they're _opportunistic _anti-Irish racists, as in they couldn't really give a shit about the Irish, but if the Irish are going to a) get in the way, b) be scapegoats for failure of the Great Brexit Dream, then bring on the Paddy jokes...


----------



## existentialist (Jun 2, 2021)

bimble said:


> Yep, its absolutely mental. The whole stamp duty holiday was probably stupider even than eat out to help out, cos this house price bonanza would have happened anyway.


When the inevitable housing price crash comes, as surely it must, it's going to be carnage.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 2, 2021)

existentialist said:


> TBF, I think they're _opportunistic _anti-Irish racists, as in they couldn't really give a shit about the Irish, but if the Irish are going to a) get in the way, b) be scapegoats for failure of the Great Brexit Dream, then bring on the Paddy jokes...


you may find your experience of the boards greatly enhanced by judicious use of the much-maligned 'ignore' function


----------



## Ax^ (Jun 2, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Always amazes me how so many continuity remainers don’t seem to have ever sat down with someone who voted leave and had a discussion .



I have Christmas and any meeting with the family for shit like that thank you very much

to many immigrants

da your from fucking Dublin


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 2, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Always amazes me how so many continuity remainers don’t seem to have ever sat down with someone who voted leave and had a discussion .


while i know many leave voters have cogent reasons for their vote which they can expound eloquently, you need a very good reason to set my ma off on that path as she is extremely voluble on the subject. not something to do if you have anything else planned for the day.


----------



## editor (Jun 2, 2021)

existentialist said:


> Not wanting to get into the postural hair-splitting too much, but is asking someone who is evidently committed to a particular - and far-reaching - policy what they were expecting to get out of it really such an unreasonable thing to do?
> 
> I haven't gone as far as to look for _compelling _reasons from Leave voters - any reason would have done - but the best I've ever managed to get is some handwavery about immigration, bullshit about regulations (straight banana type stuff), and a lot of rantiness about "sovereignty". All of which is fairly transparently not looking like any likely consequence of Brexit.
> 
> About the most "compelling" reason I've heard so far has been people admitting that it was a protest vote.


Pretty much nails it from my experience too.


----------



## Maggot (Jun 2, 2021)

Pro-Brexit Wetherspoons boss calls for more EU migration to staff bars
					

Tim Martin backs ‘reasonably liberal immigration system’ to encourage workers to relocate, despite having backed leaving single market and customs union




					www.independent.co.uk
				




Words fail me.


----------



## existentialist (Jun 2, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> you may find your experience of the boards greatly enhanced by judicious use of the much-maligned 'ignore' function


You are entirely correct. But I also like to judiciously peek behind the ignore curtain now and again, to see what the denizens are up to.


----------



## existentialist (Jun 2, 2021)

Maggot said:


> Pro-Brexit Wetherspoons boss calls for more EU migration to staff bars
> 
> 
> Tim Martin backs ‘reasonably liberal immigration system’ to encourage workers to relocate, despite having backed leaving single market and customs union
> ...


That is what the word "cunt" exists for.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 2, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> I have friends who voted remain and have never fallen out with them over the issue . Obviously I don’t know personally and have never met any of the lunatic fringe .


Actually just remembered I do know and have met an EU zealot , my mate's sister who is a bit 'hallo birds, hallo trees' well meaning type , who rents property out to students. Remember her banging on about open borders , cultural enrichment etc when the co-op had a French cheese week and we all went round to her house.


----------



## andysays (Jun 2, 2021)

existentialist said:


> Not wanting to get into the postural hair-splitting too much, but is asking someone who is evidently committed to a particular - and far-reaching - policy what they were expecting to get out of it really such an unreasonable thing to do?
> 
> I haven't gone as far as to look for _compelling _reasons from Leave voters - any reason would have done - but the best I've ever managed to get is some handwavery about immigration, bullshit about regulations (straight banana type stuff), and a lot of rantiness about "sovereignty". All of which is fairly transparently not looking like any likely consequence of Brexit.
> 
> About the most "compelling" reason I've heard so far has been people admitting that it was a protest vote.


There have been many reasons posted on this and other threads. They are still there for you and others go back and look at if you wish.

Pretty much without exception they were dismissed by Remain supporters as not being genuine or convincing.

I'll say it again, though it really should be obvious:

Just because the reason or explanation someone gives for an action or belief doesn't appear genuine, convincing or compelling to someone with a different world view, doesn't mean it isn't genuine, convincing or compelling to the person holding it.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 2, 2021)

existentialist said:


> That is what the word "cunt" exists for.


And there I was about to say something about the irony of him demanding a loosening of supply side rigidities.


----------



## MrSki (Jun 2, 2021)

Well the  whole shit show can be summed up with Heinz creating 50 (couldn't even manage 57) new jobs becomes headline news.  

Whatever the reasons people voted for Brexit, it is the the lying cunts behind vote leave that really piss me off. Should be in fucking prison.


----------



## Badgers (Jun 2, 2021)

Farmers Facing Ruin Thanks to Brexit – Byline TV
					

Byline TV went to Swindon to talk to farmers that had concern over Brexit and the ramifications for the Australian Free Trade Agreement. Some farmers and MPs believe the competition to their own products once Australia gains tariff-free access to the UK market will have dire implications on...




					byline.tv
				






> Though the farming community was mixed in its vote during the 2016 EU referendum, many are unhappy with the current government’s handling of Brexit. “The Conservatives in their manifesto made false promises. They said they wouldn’t do anything like shatter our standards or harm our countryside, and yet in practice we now know that is exactly what they’re going to do” said Webster, who believes the British public should have been told categorically of the implications of Brexit on the countryside and the industry of farming.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 2, 2021)

MrSki said:


> Well the  whole shit show can be summed up with Heinz creating 50 (couldn't even manage 57) new jobs becomes headline news.
> 
> Whatever the reasons people voted for Brexit, it is the the lying cunts behind vote leave that really piss me off. Should be in fucking prison.


should be in penguins


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Jun 2, 2021)

British farming like the British fishing industry have been thrown under a bus by Brexiteers like Boris Johnson and Nigel Farage, some farmers are regretting their vote, others don't seem to be.  By Line Times interviewed some English farmers about the UK-Australian Free Trade Deal and how they see the future of farming:


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 2, 2021)

Count Cuckula said:


> British farming like British fish has been thrown under a bus by Brexiteers like Boris Johnson and Nigel Farage, some farmers are regretting their vote, others don't seem to be.  By Line Times interviewed some English farmers about the UK-Australian Free Trade Deal and how they see the future of farming:



No excuse for throwing fish under a bus . How could they ?


----------



## Dogsauce (Jun 2, 2021)

Badgers said:


> View attachment 271422


That last phrase is sinister as fuck - he means white people doesn’t he? ‘Geographically close’ .


----------



## Raheem (Jun 2, 2021)

He probably means white people who can be here to-fucking-morrow.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 2, 2021)

Dogsauce said:


> That last phrase is sinister as fuck - he means white people doesn’t he? ‘Geographically close’ .


I don't think he gives a fuck if they're from Menton or st denis, whatever their colour, as long as they'll turn up on time and not make demands


----------



## Ax^ (Jun 2, 2021)

it also slightly dim witted if he thinks it include france and ireland will supply the work force

wales and scotland maybe?


----------



## Supine (Jun 2, 2021)

I’m happy to continue avoiding Wetherspoons if it helps them with staffing problems.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 2, 2021)

Dogsauce said:


> That last phrase is sinister as fuck - he means white people doesn’t he? ‘Geographically close’ .


Closest is France , any guess as to its composition ?


----------



## Yossarian (Jun 2, 2021)

He's probably counting on there being a huge surge in Aussie and Kiwi backpackers, once the day arrives that Aussie and Kiwis can travel overseas with a reasonable chance of being allowed to return home when they want.


----------



## discokermit (Jun 3, 2021)

haha! i fucking hate farmers. and the wetherspoons bloke. more victories for brexit!


----------



## Nine Bob Note (Jun 3, 2021)

Imagine biding your time through various 'lockdowns' knowing that soon enough you'll be able be get back to Wetherspoons! Spoons! SPOONS! *THE SPOOOOOOOOONNNNNSSSSS!!!! 🤪*

OK, I frequented them (ten years ago) until they started sticking a slice of pickled red pepper in their vegetable burgers in place of salsa. Dirty cunts. Dirty!!!!!


----------



## seeformiles (Jun 3, 2021)

I saw Tim Martin described on another site as a “Pro-Brexit Gammon Thundercat” 🙂


----------



## Badgers (Jun 3, 2021)




----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jun 3, 2021)

Nine Bob Note said:


> Imagine biding your time through various 'lockdowns' knowing that soon enough you'll be able be get back to Wetherspoons! Spoons! SPOONS! *THE SPOOOOOOOOONNNNNSSSSS!!!! 🤪*
> 
> OK, I frequented them (ten years ago) until they started sticking a slice of pickled red pepper in their vegetable burgers in place of salsa. Dirty cunts. Dirty!!!!!



What’s wrong with weatherspoons? The ones by me are multi cultural, multi generational and popular meeting up places. They are also popular with families who want a cheap meal out.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 3, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> What’s wrong with weatherspoons? The ones by me are multi cultural, multi generational and popular meeting up places. They are also popular with families who want a cheap meal out.


Tim Martin might be a good place to start

Not to mention their peculiar and ill-advertised dress code, eg Wetherspoons punter baffled by 'no hat' beer garden rule in sweltering 23C heat


----------



## seeformiles (Jun 3, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Tim Martin might be a good place to start
> 
> Not to mention their peculiar and ill-advertised dress code, eg Wetherspoons punter baffled by 'no hat' beer garden rule in sweltering 23C heat



Hmmm - do Wetherspoons think that they have a higher than average percentage of ne’er do wells among their clientele that requires monitoring?


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jun 3, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Tim Martin might be a good place to start



No doubt. But weatherspoons isn’t the only employer in the sector that operates minimum employment standards and where union organisation is needed.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 3, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> No doubt. But weatherspoons isn’t the only employer in the sector that operates minimum employment standards and where union organisation is needed.


You asked what's wrong with wetherspoons not what's wrong with employment standards in the pub sector, altho wetherspoons with their economy of scale unmatched and unmatchable by pretty much any other free houses and their consequent influences on wider standards would see TM a good place to start too


----------



## Yossarian (Jun 3, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> You asked what's wrong with wetherspoons not what's wrong with employment standards in the pub sector, altho wetherspoons with their economy of scale unmatched and unmatchable by pretty much any other free houses and their consequent influences on wider standards would see TM a good place to start too



The McDonald's of pubs.


----------



## ska invita (Jun 3, 2021)

there was a brief boycott spoons campaign over staff lockdown (no) pay last year too


----------



## Badgers (Jun 3, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> The McDonald's of pubs.


Was about to post that ^

Wetherspoon's is not the only cunty hospitality company but it is owned by a Conservative cunt of the highest order. Maybe other chains have the same type of cunt in charge but none are so vocal and hateful. Their actions are the ones that get the press attention as do McDonald's vs BK or other chains. 

Minimum wage, zero hours contracts, fuck all benefits/support bar the legal bare minimum. 

I once worked there and they are an awful employer. Their cunt boss wanting to fuck over his entire workforce at the start of a pandemic shows the measure of the man.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Jun 3, 2021)

It's a shame the spray-painting of Tim Martin's boozers came to an end. I think it should definitely be an ongoing thing. And a boycott.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 3, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Tim Martin might be a good place to start
> 
> Not to mention their peculiar and ill-advertised dress code, eg Wetherspoons punter baffled by 'no hat' beer garden rule in sweltering 23C heat


sweltering 23c?


----------



## MrSki (Jun 3, 2021)




----------



## Artaxerxes (Jun 3, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> What’s wrong with weatherspoons? The ones by me are multi cultural, multi generational and popular meeting up places. They are also popular with families who want a cheap meal out.



I'm sure they are, but they are run by a racist fuck nugget who shits on his workers and shits on the public and the reason they are cheap is because said racist fuck nugget shits on everyone to make as much money for himself as possible.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jun 3, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> You asked what's wrong with wetherspoons not what's wrong with employment standards in the pub sector, altho wetherspoons with their economy of scale unmatched and unmatchable by pretty much any other free houses and their consequent influences on wider standards would see TM a good place to start too



I asked what was wrong with Weatherspoons in response to a poster appearing to mock those looking forward to visiting one after lockdown.

Not sure their scale is 'unmatched and unmatchable' either. Yes, its the biggest: but only just. (8.8% of the market compared to Mitchells & Butlers with 7.4%, Greene King 5.8% and Stonegate Pub Co 3.6%). Not sure the poster was thinking about agglomeration though.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 3, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I asked what was wrong with Weatherspoons in response to a poster appearing to mock those looking forward to visiting one after lockdown.
> 
> Not sure their scale is 'unmatched and unmatchable' either. Yes, its the biggest but only just. (8.8% of the market compared to Mitchells & Butlers with 7.4%, Greene King 5.8% and Stonegate Pub Co 3.6%)


I have to ask if you know what a free house is

because greene king don't seem to me to be such under any reasonable definition


----------



## brogdale (Jun 3, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I asked what was wrong with Weatherspoons in response to a poster appearing to mock those looking forward to visiting one after lockdown.
> 
> Not sure their scale is 'unmatched and unmatchable' either. Yes, its the biggest: but only just. (8.8% of the market compared to Mitchells & Butlers with 7.4%, Greene King 5.8% and Stonegate Pub Co 3.6%). Not sure the poster was thinking about agglomeration though.


Yes, I think it's fair to distinguish between valid criticism of Martin's politics and style of capital accumulation and, what can come across as a somewhat sneering attitude, expressed towards those of us that use Wetherspoons. In my case, the only pub in town


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 3, 2021)

> [Sat 27th October 2012] Anarchist Bookfair - London
> 
> 
> http://anarchistbookfair.org.uk/   Interesting line up as always. I will be dusting off my string ( lost the dog years ago) and have no intention of washing between now and the day - so should fit in fine. Can't really face growing a beard though.   Anyone else going?
> ...


----------



## Yossarian (Jun 3, 2021)

"You went to a Wetherspoon's nine years ago, your argument is invalid."


----------



## brogdale (Jun 3, 2021)

tbf, it is sometimes quite difficult to avoid 'spoons in some areas; as I say, in my town they're the only boozer since Antic pulled to sell out to the property developers.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 3, 2021)

The39thStep yeh i was in a wetherspoons in 2012. well spotted. but i was also the editor of this little magazine from 2007. 


sometimes you have to go places which aren't ideal. but that's capitalism for you, i'm typing on a computer made by dell running on software by microsoft, neither of them companies i want much to do with.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 3, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> The39thStep yeh i was in a wetherspoons in 2012. well spotted. but i was also the editor of this little magazine from 2007.
> View attachment 271610
> 
> sometimes you have to go places which aren't ideal. but that's capitalism for you, i'm typing on a computer made by dell running on software by microsoft, neither of them companies i want much to do with.


It wasn't meant to be a personal dig tbh however, it reminded me of when lots of the Anarchist Bookfair crowd would meet in Weatherspoons when the Bookfair was at the old site.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 3, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> It wasn't meant to be a personal dig tbh however, it reminded me of when lots of the Anarchist Bookfair crowd would meet in Weatherspoons when the Bookfair was at the old site.


you don't have to have gone to wetherspoons to know what's objectionable about them, but it helps


----------



## andysays (Jun 3, 2021)

Count Cuckula said:


> It's a shame the spray-painting of Tim Martin's boozers came to an end. I think it should definitely be an ongoing thing. And a boycott.


Sorry if this makes me appear a boring old traditionalist, but maybe an attempt to organise Wetherspoons workers might be more worthwhile than spray painting.


----------



## ska invita (Jun 3, 2021)

andysays said:


> Sorry if this makes me appear a boring old traditionalist, but maybe an attempt to organise Wetherspoons workers might be more worthwhile than spray painting.


thats already happening


----------



## andysays (Jun 3, 2021)

ska invita said:


> thats already happening


Glad to hear it.

IMO, campaigns against exploitative companies like Wetherspoons, Amazon and McDonalds have too often been completely divorced from the workers, preferring to focus almost entirely on consumer boycotts, so it's good that seems to he changing


----------



## Ax^ (Jun 3, 2021)

green king are pretty shit to work for as well mind


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 3, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> green king are pretty shit to work for as well mind


Pretty shit to drink as well


----------



## ska invita (Jun 3, 2021)

andysays said:


> Glad to hear it.
> 
> IMO, campaigns against exploitative companies like Wetherspoons, Amazon and McDonalds have too often been completely divorced from the workers, preferring to focus almost entirely on consumer boycotts, so it's good that seems to he changing


its been a relatively effective campaign i think, someone else will know the details better but I think there was both a looser grassroots union and a drive to join the Bakers, Food and Allied Workers Union
...tbf a lot of the #boycottwetherspoons stuff came from the heat generated by union organising is my impression rather than consumer snobishness.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jun 3, 2021)

ska invita said:


> its been a relatively effective campaign i think, someone else will know the details better but I think there was both a looser grassroots union and a drive to join the Bakers, Food and Allied Workers Union
> ...tbf a lot of the #boycottwetherspoons stuff came from the heat generated by union organising is my impression rather than consumer snobishness.



I'm not convinced a boycott practically does much to helps workers to organise for better conditions, but I haven't seen much from BFAWU on the campaign lately to know if it's having some impact and acting as some kind of leverage on their bosses. I hope it is.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jun 3, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Pretty shit to drink as well



Greene King beer is like drinking piss.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 3, 2021)

ska invita said:


> its been a relatively effective campaign i think, someone else will know the details better but I think there was both a looser grassroots union and a drive to join the Bakers, Food and Allied Workers Union
> ...tbf a lot of the #boycottwetherspoons stuff came from the heat generated by union organising is my impression rather than consumer snobishness.


My impression is the other way around tbh . Despite Weatherspoon workers saying don't boycott the pro boycott lobby is full of people who for various reasons just don't like Weatherspoons.


----------



## ska invita (Jun 3, 2021)

yes there was some confusion: IIRC boycott call went up when it was looking like workers wouldnt get furlough money, then after that was all resolved a dont boycott call went up from (some?) workers saying it would hurt them most, but youd have to follow closely to know all of that and not get confused < i think thats what happened
Definite remainers hate wetherspoons streak of energy in the mix there too <fair enough tbh as hes a cunt


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jun 3, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> My impression is the other way around tbh . Despite Weatherspoon workers saying don't boycott the pro boycott lobby is full of people who for various reasons just don't like Weatherspoons.



My limited and purely anecdotal impression is that workers up here (well at the spoons in West Brom to be totally accurate) were unaware of both the organising campaign and hadn't even noticed a boycott was in operation. Maybe its the wrong type of area?


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 3, 2021)

There are some Weatherspoons, like any other pub, I avoid but when I'm in the Uk there are some where I like meeting mates and having a drink.


----------



## two sheds (Jun 3, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Greene King beer is like drinking piss.


how do you know that


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 3, 2021)

two sheds said:


> how do you know that


evidence of a mis-spent youth


----------



## Raheem (Jun 3, 2021)

two sheds said:


> how do you know that


Are you trying to get them to admit to having drunk Greene King beer?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jun 3, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> What’s wrong with weatherspoons? The ones by me are multi cultural, multi generational and popular meeting up places. They are also popular with families who want a cheap meal out.


Yeah, despite what their owner's best efforts perhaps, this is striking everywhere, I think. I remember being very pleased when the Wetherspoons in Brockley opened back in the late 90s. It was the only local pub at the time where everyone, black and white, could feel completely comfortable going to.


----------



## klang (Jun 3, 2021)

_hopes Lidl is not to be boycotted before finding a well paid job_


----------



## MrSki (Jun 3, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Greene King beer is like drinking piss.


They used to do a lovely St Edmunds bottled pale ale that mixed will with Abbot Ale. Abbot & Eddie was very popular back in the 80s & seemed to get you more pissed than you felt.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jun 3, 2021)

Raheem said:


> Are you trying to get them to admit to having drunk Greene King beer?


I made the mistake of saying to a cider drinker in a Wetherspoons once, 'oh, just get me a nice IPA'. Came back with a pint of GK.


----------



## Spymaster (Jun 3, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Pretty shit to drink as well


You hear this a lot but I don't really get the Greene King hate. The IPA is a pretty solid session ale with more taste than you'd expect from a sub-4% brew, and the Abbot is a thoroughly decent drop.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jun 3, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Yeah, despite what their owner's best efforts perhaps, this is striking everywhere, I think. I remember being very pleased when the Wetherspoons in Brockley opened back in the late 90s. It was the only local pub at the time where everyone, black and white, could feel completely comfortable going to.



Same here. Their pubs are genuinely multi cultural, multi generational, cross class and also used by families. What a community pub should look like basically


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jun 3, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> The IPA is a pretty solid session ale with more taste than you'd expect from a sub-4% brew,


Is it fuck.


----------



## MrSki (Jun 3, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Same here. Their pubs are genuinely multi cultural, multi generational, cross class and also used by families. What a community pub should look like basically


Moved on from the early days when they were known as 'God's waiting room'


----------



## two sheds (Jun 3, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> You hear this a lot but I don't really get the Greene King hate. The IPA is a pretty solid session ale with more taste than you'd expect from a sub-4% brew, and the Abbot is a thoroughly decent drop.


Abbots is nice, ok in bottles too


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jun 3, 2021)

MrSki said:


> Moved on from the early days when they were known as 'God's waiting room'



To be fair you still get the older gang as well. A significant number are lone drinkers of the hardened variety.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 3, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Same here. Their pubs are genuinely multi cultural, multi generational, cross class and also used by families. What a community pub should look like basically


but as anyone who has ever been to a genuine community pub knows, community pubs give a fuck about the community they're in and i find that something that's hard to believe of a wetherspoons. the community pubs i have known in london have been proper community assets, where the landlord knows the drinkers and out of genuine rather than affected bonhomie brings the disparate strands of the people who use the pub together. it's ime something rather magical and which doesn't last forever. a community pub isn't a business with the qualities you list, it's one in which they're subtly welded into something rather greater than their parts.


----------



## BillRiver (Jun 3, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Same here. Their pubs are genuinely multi cultural, multi generational, cross class and also used by families. What a community pub should look like basically



True. But it's partly thanks to them that other pubs which were genuinely multicultural, multi-generational, cross class and also used by families, in my area were forced to close.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jun 3, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> but as anyone who has ever been to a genuine community pub knows, community pubs give a fuck about the community they're in and i find that something that's hard to believe of a wetherspoons. the community pubs i have known in london have been proper community assets, where the landlord knows the drinkers and out of genuine rather than affected bonhomie brings the disparate strands of the people who use the pub together. it's ime something rather magical and which doesn't last forever. a community pub isn't a business with the qualities you list, it's one in which they're subtly welded into something rather greater than their parts.



Yep, agree with that. They aren't the same as the type of pub that you describe. Those types of ale houses have been closing with startling rapidity round here for years. There are myriad reasons: population change, industrial decline/relocation, changing habits, the smoking ban and, as you mentioned earlier, the agglomeration of the sector killing off the genuine independents. In many places all that's left are bars aimed squarely at the youth market, craft beer places aimed at a particular segment, places more geared towards food and the spoons.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 3, 2021)

MrSki said:


> Moved on from the early days when they were known as 'God's waiting room'


Most pubs are tbh


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jun 3, 2021)

BillRiver said:


> True. But it's partly thanks to them that other pubs which were genuinely multicultural, multi-generational, cross class and also used by families, in my area were forced to close.



That is probably true in some places. But I'd argue that in others the _arrival _of the spoons was after other places had already gone and was squarely aimed at filling the gap. I'd prefer to go back to what was there before too, but the same could be said about many other things that used to exist in lots of towns but which have been lost under the current order.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 3, 2021)

BillRiver said:


> True. But it's partly thanks to them that other pubs which were genuinely multicultural, multi-generational, cross class and also used by families, in my area were forced to close.


Partly being the correct description . The reasons behind the decline and fall of these pubs is both complex and contested.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 3, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> evidence of a mis-spent youth


Cantab?


----------



## brogdale (Jun 3, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> You hear this a lot but I don't really get the Greene King hate. The IPA is a pretty solid session ale with more taste than you'd expect from a sub-4% brew, and the Abbot is a thoroughly decent drop.


I'll admit that Abbot Reserve just about creeps into my range of acceptable ales.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 3, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Cantab?


Sometimes even tabcan I wouldn't be surprised


----------



## JimW (Jun 3, 2021)

I've gone soft on Greene King as it's one of the few English ales you can get here (I think because Xi had a pint on a visit) so it only has lager knockoffs to compete with and wins that handily. The microbrew pubs in town are mostly that godawful hipster shite where IPA seem to mean whatever murky slop they've knocked up and everything's far too strong.


----------



## andysays (Jun 3, 2021)

WTF is going on with this thread?

Yesterday it was all pork scratching recommendations and now we're on to community pubs.

This thread is for ill-tempered attacks and blaming all the problems in the world on Brexiteers, so kindly take your off-topic good natured discussion elsewhere


----------



## Raheem (Jun 3, 2021)

JimW said:


> I've gone soft on Greene King


Can happen with any alcohol. Nothing to be embarrassed about.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jun 3, 2021)

andysays said:


> WTF is going on with this thread?
> 
> Yesterday it was all pork scratching recommendations and now we're on to community pubs.
> 
> This thread is for ill-tempered attacks and blaming all the problems in the world on Brexiteers, so kindly take your off-topic good natured discussion elsewhere



We've filled the space whilst continuity remain takes a well earned rest and lie down. Normal service will resume shortly.


----------



## andysays (Jun 3, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> We've filled the space whilst continuity remain takes a well earned rest and lie down. *Normal service will resume shortly.*


I hope so.

If I wanted good natured discussion about pubs etc I'd go to the Suburban Forum...


----------



## ska invita (Jun 3, 2021)

andysays said:


> Yesterday it was all pork scratching recommendations and now we're on to community pubs.


deflection by the guilty 

(trying to bring baack a bit of that brexit war spirit)


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 3, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> We've filled the space whilst continuity remain takes a well earned rest and lie down. Normal service will resume shortly.


I'm keen to hear the next installment  of Bimbles 'people who I know who have houses abroad' stories


----------



## two sheds (Jun 3, 2021)

I'm not actually sure what a community pub is but I've moved around a lot over the years and always gone to pubs like that to meet people. Main reason I've ended up being mates with a lot of community piss-heads.


----------



## MrSki (Jun 3, 2021)

andysays said:


> WTF is going on with this thread?
> 
> Yesterday it was all pork scratching recommendations and now we're on to community pubs.


Well the loudest Brexiteer business owner twat has now realised that he can't run his pubs without EU labour. Not sure where the pork scratchings came in & can't be pigged arsed to look back.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 3, 2021)

MrSki said:


> Well the loudest Brexiteer business owner twat has now realised that he can't run his pubs without EU labour. Not sure where the pork scratchings came in & can't be pigged arsed to look back.


Think it’s fair to say that he can but he might have to raise the wages, which I’m sure you are in favour of .


----------



## MrSki (Jun 3, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Think it’s fair to say that he can but he might have to raise the wages, which I’m sure you are in favour of .


Yes certainly in favour but that will mean an increase in prices which will in turn reduce the appeal of spoons. When I have drunk in them in the past most of the staff I have chatted to would much prefer to work in another bar. 
The more independent pubs the better imho. each with their own character.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 3, 2021)

MrSki said:


> Yes certainly in favour but that will mean an increase in prices which will in turn reduce the appeal of spoons. When I have drunk in them in the past most of the staff I have chatted to would much prefer to work in another bar.
> The more independent pubs the better imho. each with their own character.


So anecdotally staff you’d chatted to you are unhappy and would rather work elsewhere but you are in favour of inflicting employment at Wetherspoons on EU staff? Who normally comes out with the line higher wages equals higher prices ?


----------



## MrSki (Jun 3, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> So anecdotally staff you’d chatted to you are unhappy and would rather work elsewhere but you are in favour of inflicting employment at Wetherspoons on EU staff? Who normally comes out with the line higher wages equals higher prices ?


No I would be happy to see Wetherspoons go under and independent pubs take over the market. Am happy to be served by staff from anywhere in the world as long as they are happy to serve me.
If you think that staffing costs, which are a large proportion of a pubs overheads, do not affect the price of a pint then I can't really argue with you. 
It is a fine balance for a pub not to be over staffed & be able to sell as much as possible to meet the demand.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 3, 2021)

MrSki said:


> No I would be happy to see Wetherspoons go under and independent pubs take over the market. Am happy to be served by staff from anywhere in the world as long as they are happy to serve me.
> If you think that staffing costs, which are a large proportion of a pubs overheads, do not affect the price of a pint then I can't really argue with you.
> It is a fine balance for a pub not to be over staffed & be able to sell as much as possible to meet the demand.


You are trying to make a point that Wetherspoons needs cheap labour otherwise it’ll go bust . Then we have the pay the staff more and beer prices will go up making Wetherspoons less attractive . Then you wish that it does go bust and miraculously taken by independent pubs . Of course in the midst of this are the staff whether they are U.K. or EU . 
Come on a belief in remaining in the EU surely isn’t worth this line of approach . Mr Ski you are capable of better than this .


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jun 3, 2021)

andysays said:


> WTF is going on with this thread?
> 
> Yesterday it was all pork scratching recommendations and now we're on to community pubs.
> 
> This thread is for ill-tempered attacks and blaming all the problems in the world on Brexiteers, so kindly take your off-topic good natured discussion elsewhere



It's been at least three posts since we mentioned bands this needs sorting


----------



## Smangus (Jun 3, 2021)

Spoons going bust would be filed under "Brexit benefits"

Thank you leave  voters!


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 3, 2021)

Even worse is the news blackout of irate Europeans being denied touring British bands and merchandise .


----------



## MrSki (Jun 3, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> You are trying to make a point that Wetherspoons needs cheap labour otherwise it’ll go bust . Then we have the pay the staff more and beer prices will go up making Wetherspoons less attractive . Then you wish that it does go bust and miraculously taken by independent pubs . Of course in the midst of this are the staff whether they are U.K. or EU .
> Come on a belief in remaining in the EU surely isn’t worth this line of approach . Mr Ski you are capable of better than this .


I think it is Tim Martin who is making the point that Spoons need cheap labour not me.
I would like to see all pubs taken over by either their staff, the local community or both. I think the way Martin treated his staff during Covid is disgusting & hope he gets what he deserves.
The pub trade has changed a lot over the last thirty odd years. When I first started drinking in pubs they were just for drinking. Lucky to get & pork scratching or a ham roll. Certainly not somewhere you would go for a cup of coffee. Now a lot of pubs have expanded their range of non alcoholic products be it food or coffee & in a lot of villages have taken on the role of the local shop & the extension of opening hours has helped.

My ex local in King's Cross became community owned about ten years ago & as far as I am aware is still going strong. Not sure how lockdown has impacted but there is a thread about it somewhere.

ETA here. Charles I in Kings Cross: a lovely little boozer

When it comes to Spoons it is more about Martin being such a cunt than Brexit.


----------



## Badgers (Jun 3, 2021)

EU leaders drawing up ‘code of conduct’ for dealing with Brexit Britain
					

Concerns in Brussels that UK lobbying is getting out of hand




					www.independent.co.uk


----------



## Badgers (Jun 3, 2021)

Nigel Farage on LBC today:

'_I never said it would be a beneficial thing to leave_'


----------



## eatmorecheese (Jun 3, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Nigel Farage on LBC today:
> 
> '_I never said it would be a beneficial thing to leave_'


Who was interviewing him? I'd like to hear that.

Ludicrous bellend.

Flange obvs, not you Badgers


----------



## Badgers (Jun 3, 2021)

Am not up to speed with LBC but will find it


----------



## Ax^ (Jun 3, 2021)

he is that desperate for attention these day that he is now denying he premoted Brexit


has Trump stop returning his calls ?


----------



## Raheem (Jun 3, 2021)

Not today, looks like. I bet it was posted on here back then and we've all forgotten, because it's actually unremarkable.


----------



## Badgers (Jun 3, 2021)

> Normally amiable and carefully-spoken, he struggled to keep his tone even as he explained how furious he was with the government's handling of negotiations over a trade deal with Australia. He said ministers had been "dishonest".
> 
> "We aren't afraid of a Free Trade Deal, but we've been given absolutely no assurances about what standards will be upheld," he said.
> 
> Mr Barton argues that the government had backtracked on a pledge to allow independent scrutiny of trade bills before they are signed.











						Farmers' opposition to UK-Australia trade deal grows - BBC News
					

Opposition among UK farmers is rising towards the trade deal close to being concluded with Australia.




					www-bbc-com.cdn.ampproject.org


----------



## Supine (Jun 3, 2021)

Even these shitbags are acknowledging Brexit has costs. All thanks to stupid brexiteers.


----------



## Badgers (Jun 3, 2021)

Supine said:


> Even these shitbags are acknowledging Brexit has costs. All thanks to stupid brexiteers.
> 
> View attachment 271734


NO that is the EU red tape ^


----------



## Ax^ (Jun 3, 2021)

the farmers thing is very confusing

and aye not all voted for it but plenty did for the idea of less regulation/red tape


not getting woried about trade deal with countries who have over production


----------



## MrSki (Jun 3, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> the farmers thing is very confusing
> 
> and aye not all voted for it but plenty did for the idea of less regulation/red tape
> 
> ...


Surprisingly the farmers were not told the truth & were told they would still be part of the single market. Can see why they are pissed off to be honest.


----------



## Badgers (Jun 3, 2021)

MrSki said:


> Surprisingly the farmers were not told the truth & were told they would still be part of the single market. Can see why they are pissed off to be honest.


At least the Fisherman are okay...


----------



## Ax^ (Jun 3, 2021)

are we talking about english farmers or north ireland farmers


----------



## Badgers (Jun 3, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> are we talking about english farmers or north ireland farmers


Both


----------



## Ax^ (Jun 3, 2021)

were english farmers informed they would not  be involved in the single market


as still being in it seems to be an issue in north ireland atm


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jun 3, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> were english farmers informed they would not  be involved in the single market
> 
> 
> as still being in it seems to be an issue in north ireland atm



For 5 years people asking "but what about the Northern Irish border?" were told it would be fine, we'd have magic technology sorting customs, we'd have no border in the Irish sea, it'll be grand so.

Then Johnson stormed in and promised a border in the Irish sea which got a few backs up but somehow was billed as solving the problem by the UK press. Now however we appear to have a border in Northern Ireland and one looming in the Irish sea so people are still confused and some of them are angry and a fair few are armed so...


----------



## Maggot (Jun 3, 2021)

Watching Tim Martin squirm almost makes Brexit worth it | Mark Steel
					

Who could possibly have known in advance that getting rid of 188,000 people from abroad who did jobs here would leave us with a workforce that was 188,000 short?




					www.independent.co.uk


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 3, 2021)

Badgers said:


> View attachment 271732
> 
> Am not up to speed with LBC but will find it


That's a neck that would look better with a noose around it


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 3, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> For 5 years people asking "but what about the Northern Irish border?" were told it would be fine, we'd have magic technology sorting customs, we'd have no border in the Irish sea, it'll be grand so.
> 
> Then Johnson stormed in and promised a border in the Irish sea which got a few backs up but somehow was billed as solving the problem by the UK press. Now however we appear to have a border in Northern Ireland and one looming in the Irish sea so people are still confused and some of them are angry and a fair few are armed so...


You're right, the British army never did decommission


----------



## Ax^ (Jun 3, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> For 5 years people asking "but what about the Northern Irish border?" were told it would be fine, we'd have magic technology sorting customs, we'd have no border in the Irish sea, it'll be grand so.
> 
> Then Johnson stormed in and promised a border in the Irish sea which got a few backs up but somehow was billed as solving the problem by the UK press. Now however we appear to have a border in Northern Ireland and one looming in the Irish sea so people are still confused and some of them are angry and a fair few are armed so...


 you almost think it did not matter to the london establisment torys


----------



## gosub (Jun 4, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> the farmers thing is very confusing
> 
> and aye not all voted for it but plenty did for the idea of less regulation/red tape
> 
> ...


Aussies 'over production' ....being out of favour with Beijing


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 4, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> the farmers thing is very confusing
> 
> and aye not all voted for it but plenty did for the idea of less regulation/red tape
> 
> ...


Bring on the tariffs


----------



## Badgers (Jun 4, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> were english farmers informed they would not  be involved in the single market
> 
> 
> as still being in it seems to be an issue in north ireland atm


Both


----------



## Badgers (Jun 4, 2021)




----------



## Badgers (Jun 4, 2021)




----------



## Badgers (Jun 4, 2021)

#worldbeating 









						Wetherspoon boss denies worker shortage caused by Brexit
					

The boss of pub chain JD Wetherspoon has denied reports that his pubs have been hit by staff shortages due to Brexit.




					www.theneweuropean.co.uk


----------



## brogdale (Jun 4, 2021)

Badgers said:


> #worldbeating
> 
> 
> 
> ...


All he understands.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jun 4, 2021)

Good news for editor anyway.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 4, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Good news for editor anyway.



 Hello Vaduz , tonight we're going to rock'n.'roll ya


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 4, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Hello Vaduz , tonight we're going to rock'n.'roll ya



Thought you'd show us a shot of editor on drums


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 4, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Good news for editor anyway.



Nicelie done


----------



## Ax^ (Jun 4, 2021)

Oh is this the next one upmanship game with the Tories


not just massive flag but increasing larger pictures of her Royal Regina in the background


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 4, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Thought you'd show us a shot of editor on drums


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jun 4, 2021)

"I've provided band visas for Norway, Iceland and Lichenstein and that put them on the map!"
"Is there a chance the band could trend?"
"Not on your life my boy band friend!"


----------



## Ax^ (Jun 5, 2021)




----------



## Raheem (Jun 5, 2021)

Ax^ said:


>


Maybe this was how the UK felt in the EU.


----------



## Ax^ (Jun 5, 2021)

aside from the dimensions where wrong


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 5, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> "I've provided band visas for Norway, Iceland and Lichenstein and that put them on the map!"
> "Is there a chance the band could trend?"
> "Not on your life my boy band friend!"


"What's it called?"
"Monochr.. er, monorail"


----------



## Maltin (Jun 5, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Hello Vaduz , tonight we're going to rock'n.'roll ya



Seeing as Liechtenstein doesn’t have an airport, not sure how easy it will be to tour there.


----------



## Spymaster (Jun 5, 2021)

Maltin said:


> Seeing as Liechtenstein doesn’t have an airport, not sure how easy it will be to tour there.



It's just 70 miles from Zurich.


----------



## 2hats (Jun 5, 2021)

Maltin said:


> Seeing as Liechtenstein doesn’t have an airport, not sure how easy it will be to tour there.


I'm confident de Spaffel will be announcing the construction of direct tunnels to all three countries shortly.


----------



## Maltin (Jun 5, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> It's just 70 miles from Zurich.


But would Switzerland let the artists in?


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 5, 2021)

We may have left the EU alone, but shafts of light sometimes grace the corner of our rooms









						23 June: A Message of Hope
					






					www.bestforbritain.org


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jun 5, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> It's just 70 miles from Zurich.



Presumably then you still need a visa to get through the EU to Lichtenstein?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 5, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Presumably then you still need a visa to get through the EU to Lichtenstein?


Which bit of the EU are you thinking of?


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jun 5, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Which bit of the EU are you thinking of?



Might have misplaced my Zurich’s but I am quite tired. 

Fine, a visa for Switzerland


----------



## gosub (Jun 5, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> We may have left the EU , alone, but  but shafts of light sometimes grace the corner of our rooms
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Indeed. Bilaterals concerning defense and security NOT involving the EU are coming along nicely


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 5, 2021)

gosub said:


> Indeed. Bilaterals concerning defense and security NOT involving the EU are coming along nicely


Think you can only have your name projected not snappy slogans


----------



## gosub (Jun 5, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Think you can only have your name projected not snappy slogans


Couldn't give a toss. 
Will keep the twitterati feeling their life has meaning and purpose I suppose and doesn't hurt anybody


----------



## two sheds (Jun 5, 2021)

And what about the light pollution?


----------



## gosub (Jun 5, 2021)

two sheds said:


> And what about the light pollution?


Ah, good point. Bloody remainers, going over there and confusing the EU's moths


----------



## Badgers (Jun 5, 2021)

Any news on the Lugano Convention?


----------



## JimW (Jun 5, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Any news on the Lugano Convention?


They've signed up Matt Damon to play the lead.


----------



## klang (Jun 5, 2021)

Didn't Lichtenstein die in '97?


----------



## MrSki (Jun 5, 2021)

This will go well.


----------



## eatmorecheese (Jun 5, 2021)

MrSki said:


> This will go well.



Our future, streaming gloriously behind us


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 5, 2021)

MrSki said:


> This will go well.





Not to suggest Loyalists are thick or owt, but masks, it's good, but not quite right...


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Jun 6, 2021)

Just off for a walk to the shops with my ski mask and drum, totally normal, nothing to see here.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 6, 2021)

The absolute state of this cunt:


----------



## existentialist (Jun 6, 2021)

brogdale said:


> The absolute state of this cunt:
> 
> View attachment 272106


Who is that cunt?

ETA. Oh, a fucking Tory MP. I'm less shocked, now 

The cunt in question:



Scraping the barrel for Tory shitehawks. And a smug, pleased-with-himself face that's just _asking_ for a proper punch.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 6, 2021)

brogdale said:


> The absolute state of this cunt:
> 
> View attachment 272106


Yeh that was then and this is the middle of a pandemic. The only thing wrong with that cunt is he's still breathing


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 6, 2021)

France has been pretty much the most accommodating of all EU countries in letting U.K. citizens in during the pandemic.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Jun 6, 2021)

brogdale said:


> The absolute state of this cunt:
> 
> View attachment 272106


These people are beyond parody.


----------



## Raheem (Jun 6, 2021)

brogdale said:


> The absolute state of this cunt:
> 
> View attachment 272106


I suppose D-day can seem more or less of a compelling reason depending on your politics.


----------



## MrSki (Jun 6, 2021)

Raheem said:


> I suppose D-day can seem more or less of a compelling reason depending on your politics.


----------



## MrSki (Jun 6, 2021)




----------



## Storm Fox (Jun 7, 2021)

You know your county is f*cked when the government starts using 'Freeman of the Land' type arguments.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 7, 2021)

MrSki said:


>



If only the League of Nations had  had a trade deal


----------



## dessiato (Jun 7, 2021)

MrSki said:


> This will go well.



No social distancing, but plenty of face covering being worn. Is that a plus?


----------



## bimble (Jun 9, 2021)

UK 'unilaterally' doing stuff that's different from what was agreed in the brilliant agreement that they negotiated & signed .. that's just a polite way of saying this government is not someone you can deal with in good faith isn't it, cos they'll sign things and then just blithely do whatever they feel like instead. All a bit embarrassing. Just cos they refuse to agree even temporarily to EU standards on chicken nuggets or whatever, the twats.


----------



## dessiato (Jun 9, 2021)

bimble said:


> UK 'unilaterally' doing stuff that's different from what was agreed in the brilliant agreement that they negotiated & signed .. that's just a polite way of saying this government is not someone you can deal with in good faith isn't it, cos they'll sign things and then just blithely do whatever they feel like instead. All a bit embarrassing. Just cos they refuse to agree even temporarily to EU standards on chicken nuggets or whatever, the twats.


I’m afraid the U.K. is making itself a laughing stock. Students, and non-U.K. friends, are openly mocking the U.K. and Brexit. Even our American friends think the U.K. government needs to sort itself out, and look what they had.


----------



## bimble (Jun 9, 2021)

If I was a country, i'd probably be watching and thinking i'm not wasting my time making a trade deal with those twats they don't care about agreements they're just a shit little clown cartel. 








						Trade war threats will not wash with voters, Frost tells EU as row deepens
					

UK considering unilaterally extending grace periods under Northern Ireland protocol




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 9, 2021)

bimble said:


> If I was a country, i'd probably be watching and thinking i'm not wasting my time making a trade deal with those twats they don't care about agreements they're just a shit little clown cartel.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Clowns take great exception to being associated in any way with the Johnson cabal and will go full pennywise with people who make such an allegation


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 9, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> If only the League of Nations had  had a trade deal


The lon had some surprising successes eg road signs Unravelling hieroglyphs : Urban traffic signs and the League of Nat...


----------



## Spymaster (Jun 9, 2021)

bimble said:


> UK 'unilaterally' doing stuff that's different from what was agreed in the brilliant agreement that they negotiated & signed .. that's just a polite way of saying this government is not someone you can deal with in good faith isn't it, cos they'll sign things and then just blithely do whatever they feel like instead. All a bit embarrassing. Just cos they refuse to agree even temporarily to EU standards on chicken nuggets or whatever, the twats.


The mistake that was made was the UK ever agreeing to impose checks on goods between GB and NI in the first place. That's where the line should have been held. UK food producers didn't suddenly change their recipes the day we left the EU. The food that's being exported to NI is, by and large, exactly the same stuff that's been sent there for the last 30-40 years. If the EU don't want the evil British produce filtering its way into Ireland in people's gloveboxes and pockets, let them make the checks. 

The solution of course, is Irexit, which is now a real future possibilty.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 9, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> The mistake that was made was the UK ever agreeing to impose checks on goods between GB and NI in the first place. That's where the line should have been held. UK food producers didn't suddenly change their recipes the day we left the EU. The food that's being exported to NI is, by and large, exactly the same stuff that's been sent there for the last 30-40 years. If the EU don't want the evil British produce filtering its way into Ireland in people's gloveboxes and pockets, let them make the checks.
> 
> The solution of course, is Irexit, which is now a real future possibilty.


So many things are possible


----------



## glitch hiker (Jun 9, 2021)

bimble said:


> If I was a country, i'd probably be watching and thinking i'm not wasting my time making a trade deal with those twats they don't care about agreements they're just a shit little clown cartel.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


But the deals benefit those countries way more than us becuase they are being rushed through by a desperate government. They don't stand to lose at all. If we shit the bed, oh well.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 9, 2021)

glitch hiker said:


> But the deals benefit those countries way more than us becuase they are being rushed through by a desperate government. They don't stand to lose at all. If we shit the bed, oh well.


You might buy new sheets and possibly even a new mattress depending on the scale of the shitting. So someone will make money out of it


----------



## glitch hiker (Jun 9, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> You might buy new sheets and possibly even a new mattress depending on the scale of the shitting. So someone will make money out of it


Given the corporate courts that are going to be involved, in secret, as part of the Aussie deal, it won't be us.

IIRC


----------



## Spymaster (Jun 9, 2021)

glitch hiker said:


> But the deals benefit those countries way more than us becuase they are being rushed through by a desperate government.



Can you give us some examples of this?


----------



## glitch hiker (Jun 9, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Can you give us some examples of this?


Of what? It's in the process of happening now. The Government wants trade deals as quickly as possible, even though they normally take years.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 9, 2021)

glitch hiker said:


> Of what?




Do you have some concrete examples of this benefitting the other country way more please?


----------



## ska invita (Jun 9, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> The mistake that was made was the UK ever agreeing to impose checks on goods between GB and NI in the first place. That's where the line should have been held. UK food producers didn't suddenly change their recipes the day we left the EU. The food that's being exported to NI is, by and large, exactly the same stuff that's been sent there for the last 30-40 years. If the EU don't want the evil British produce filtering its way into Ireland in people's gloveboxes and pockets, let them make the checks.
> 
> The solution of course, is Irexit, which is now a real future possibilty.


If the UK wanted to have equal standards and no checks it could've signed up for that equivalence. It was ruled out as an absolute No Go.. Why? Because it would stand in the way of other trade deals... Such as hormone beef from Australia, etc etc.

It will take a little time for standards to "deviate" but the government has made explicit, deviation will occur.

There's been no "mistake".


----------



## Spymaster (Jun 9, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> So many things are possible



Interesting times ahead for Ireland. They're shitting themselves over the upcoming corporation tax reforms (which the EU is wholeheartedly behind) and surely it won't be long after Amazon, Paypal, eBay, et al, decamp (they employ a tenth of the Irish workforce) that their voters realise that the EU don't give a fuck about Ireland, as amply demonstrated with fishing rights, vaccination borders, etc 



glitch hiker said:


> Of what? It's in the process of happening now. The Government wants trade deals as quickly as possible, even though they normally take years.



Yes, but can you give some examples of trade deals that have been done in a hurry and how they benefit the other side rather than the UK? .


----------



## andysays (Jun 9, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> You might buy new sheets and possibly even a new mattress depending on the scale of the shitting. So someone will make money out of it


As long as it's the British sheet and mattress industries that benefit...


----------



## Spymaster (Jun 9, 2021)

ska invita said:


> If the UK wanted to have equal standards and no checks it could've signed up for that equivalence. It was ruled out as an absolute No Go.. Why? Because it would stand in the way of other trade deals... Such as hormone need from Australia, etc etc.
> 
> It will take a little time for standards to "deviate" but the government has made explicit, deviation will occur.
> 
> There's been no "mistake".



You're talking about equivalence between the UK and the EU. This is about the GB and NI. The mistake was when the UKG effectively agreed to the Irish Sea border with the NIP.


----------



## glitch hiker (Jun 9, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Do you have some concrete examples of this benefitting the other country way more please?


British farming standards won't be able to compete against the vast industrial machine in places like Australia, while we are looking likely to give them more of the things they would want than we want because the government needs that deal.


----------



## glitch hiker (Jun 9, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Interesting times ahead for Ireland. They're shitting themselves over the upcoming corporation tax reforms (which the EU is wholeheartedly behind) and surely it won't be long after Amazon, Paypal, eBay, et al, decamp (they employ a tenth of the Irish workforce) that their voters realise that the EU don't give a fuck about Ireland, as amply demonstrated with fishing rights, vaccination borders, etc
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, but can you give some examples of trade deals that have been done in a hurry and how they benefit the other side rather than the UK? .


AFAIK the only actual trade deal we've done so far is Norway.


----------



## Spymaster (Jun 9, 2021)

glitch hiker said:


> AFAIK the only actual trade deal we've done so far is Norway.



Ok, well you're only about 70 out there, but since you know about the Norway one let's take that as an example.

How does the trade deal between the UK and Norway benefit Norway more than Britain?


----------



## glitch hiker (Jun 9, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Ok, well you're only about 70 out there, but since you know about the Norway one let's take that as an example.
> 
> How does the trade deal between the UK and Norway benefit Norway more than Britain?


Are you talking about rollover arrangements or actual fresh trade deals?

I'm not sure whether that specific Norway deal benefits them more than us or not. AFACT they are still protectionist about Beef and (some) cheese while gaining on some of their seafood while our agriculture and fishing industry is having brexit problems.

I'm happy to be corrected.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 9, 2021)

glitch hiker said:


> British farming standards won't be able to compete against the vast industrial machine in places like Australia, while we are looking likely to give them more of the things they would want than we want because the government needs that deal.




I understand Australia has vast cattle ranches, obviously being on the other side of the world they won't be able to supply fresh beef, so that market will stay with UK and Irish (possibly) producers, leaving Aussie meat to compete with South American, no?


----------



## glitch hiker (Jun 9, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> I understand Australia has vast cattle ranches, obviously being on the other side of the world they won't be able to supply fresh beef, so that market will stay with UK and Irish (possibly) producers, leaving Aussie meat to compete with South American, no?


I guess it depends what Aus wants from the deal. Is there any point if they aren't going to be able to supply what they want to sell because of the distance? If we can't likewise ship our beef over there, for the same reason as well as the scale of the domestic aussie market, then we aren't going to benefit either.


----------



## two sheds (Jun 9, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> The mistake that was made was the UK ever agreeing to impose checks on goods between GB and NI in the first place. That's where the line should have been held. UK food producers didn't suddenly change their recipes the day we left the EU. The food that's being exported to NI is, by and large, exactly the same stuff that's been sent there for the last 30-40 years.


I don't think that works - once we get American food with all its wonderful additives it could go straight across the border into the EU and ...



Spymaster said:


> If the EU don't want the evil British produce filtering its way into Ireland in people's gloveboxes and pockets, let them make the checks.


Doesn't that mean a hard border between north and south? Which fucks the Good Friday Agreement.


Spymaster said:


> The solution of course, is Irexit, which is now a real future possibilty.


Indeed


----------



## brogdale (Jun 9, 2021)

Trade deals are only ever designed to advantage the capital from which the wealthy derive their unearned income; those negotiating them have no 'national' interest in them. The only drivers are accelerated global corporate accumulation and wealth defence.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 9, 2021)

glitch hiker said:


> I guess it depends what Aus wants from the deal. Is there any point if they aren't going to be able to supply what they want to sell because of the distance? If we can't likewise ship our beef over there, for the same reason as well as the scale of the domestic aussie market, then we aren't going to benefit either.




I think they way these things work is we accept their crappy beef, rather than Brazil and Argentina's, Oz then takes some of our crap in return, scotch, Welsh cakes and so on.


----------



## Spymaster (Jun 9, 2021)

two sheds said:


> two sheds said:
> 
> 
> > I don't think that works - once we get American food with all its wonderful additives it could go straight across the border into the EU and ...
> ...


----------



## two sheds (Jun 9, 2021)

> ht across the border into the EU and ..



ht? 

and .. on to the rest of the EU so fucking their environmental and food regulations?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 9, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Doesn't that mean a hard border between north and south? Which fucks the Good Friday Agreement.



The solution to that is to put the checks on the border with Ireland and the mainland EU.


----------



## Spymaster (Jun 9, 2021)

two sheds said:


> I don't think that works - once we get American food with all its wonderful additives it could go straight across the border into the EU and ...
> 
> 
> Doesn't that mean a hard border between north and south? Which fucks the Good Friday Agreement.
> ...


It doesn't _need _to be a hard border. It could be policed as it is now with spot checks on vehicles within Ireland. Smuggling has been going on between Northern and Southern Ireland since the towers came down. Now it's mainly fuel and booze. What happens at the moment is that you come across a PSNI road stop every now and then. The EU could do the same if they're so concerned. Whatever they decide to do won't be the UK govs fault so if that affects the GFA (no reason why it should except the EU being their usual arsehole selves) the IRA can get handy with Brussels.


----------



## two sheds (Jun 9, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> The solution to that is to put the checks on the border with Ireland and the EU.


Which buggers the central idea of the EU doesn't it? I'm not saying it wouldn't work but I can't see them agreeing to that.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 9, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Which buggers the central idea of the EU doesn't it? I'm not saying it wouldn't work but I can't see them agreeing to that.




Edited to add 'mainland' to EU.

There is already a border between Ireland and the mainland EU for people, that doesn't bugger the central idea of the EU, so why not sausages?


----------



## two sheds (Jun 9, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> It doesn't _need _to be a hard border. It could be policed as it is now with spot checks on vehicles within Ireland. Smuggling has been going on between Northern and Southern Ireland since the towers came down. What happens at the moment is that you come across a PSNI road stop every now and then. The EU could do the same if they're so concerned. Whatever they decide to do won't be the UK govs fault so if that affects the GFA (no reason why it should except the EU being their usual arsehole selves) the IRA can get handy with Brussels.


Indeed smuggling's been going on but it's not bothered the EU too much because both were in the EU. And it's hardly the EU's fault that Britain has gone back on its agreements (super-intelligent customs posts, no paperwork for exporters - which does actually make its the UK govs fault) so I can't see Brussels wanting the IRA's attention.


----------



## two sheds (Jun 9, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Edited to add 'mainland' to EU.
> 
> There is already a border between Ireland and the mainland EU for people, that doesn't bugger the central idea of the EU, so why not sausages?


Border between Ireland and mainland EU for people? Apart from the channel you mean?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 9, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Border between Ireland and mainland EU for people? Apart from the channel you mean?




No, a hard border, manned with immigration officers at the ports and airports. You fly Paris to Malta there's no immigration officers or documents required, fly Paris to Dublin there are immigration officers and passports/id cards are needed.


----------



## Spymaster (Jun 9, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Indeed smuggling's been going on but it's not bothered the EU too much because both were in the EU. And it's hardly the EU's fault that Britain has gone back on its agreements (super-intelligent customs posts, no paperwork for exporters - which does actually make its the UK govs fault) so I can't see Brussels wanting the IRA's attention.



Well of course they won't want it but they may not be given the choice. I agree with you about the government delaying/reneging on commitments but they should never have been made in the first place. This was the mistake referred to above.

The EU can, of course, still prevent all that dirty foreign produce from landing on their hallowed turf _legally _whilst maintaining the porous/non-existent border_. _That's the important bit.


----------



## two sheds (Jun 9, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> No, a hard border, manned with immigration officers at the ports and airports. You fly Paris to Malta there's no immigration officers or documents required, fly Paris to Dublin there are immigration officers and passports/id cards are needed.


Ah ok didn't realize that. Still major change if goods need to go through customs when they didn't before.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 9, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Ah ok didn't realize that. Still major change if goods need to go through customs when they didn't before.




Just stick a customs officer in the booth with the immigration officer, piece of piss.


----------



## two sheds (Jun 9, 2021)

Not sure a customs officer is going to be much use checking containerloads of stuff coming off a boat.


----------



## two sheds (Jun 9, 2021)

I've not been too bothered about Brexit either way but I'm finding it a tad strange that a country that is no longer in the EU is demanding that the EU changes its rules in a fairly fundamental way. I'd thought we'd given up that right along with all the EU's disadvantages.

As Spy says, only real solution is for NI and Eire to join.


----------



## Supine (Jun 9, 2021)

Suggesting mainland EU start to annex Ireland is the kind of pompous brexiteer nonsense that got us into this mess.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 9, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Not sure a customs officer is going to be much use checking containerloads of stuff coming off a boat.



That's precisely what customs officers do.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 9, 2021)

Supine said:


> Suggesting mainland EU start to annex Ireland is the kind of pompous brexiteer nonsense that got us into this mess.



It already is for people, so why not for pork chops?


----------



## two sheds (Jun 9, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> That's precisely what customs officers do.


Indeed, you'll need more than one in a cubicle to check large numbers of containers coming off a boat though.


----------



## Spymaster (Jun 9, 2021)

two sheds said:


> As Spy says, only real solution is for NI and Eire to join.



Well that would be grand but my point was rather that Ireland may well leave the EU in the future. I'd put money on them being the next out.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 9, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Indeed, you'll need more than one in a cubicle to check large numbers of containers coming off a boat though.




If the tax-dodgers flee Ireland there's gonna be a lot of people needing work, it's a win-win.


----------



## editor (Jun 9, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> If the tax-dodgers flee Ireland there's gonna be a lot of people needing work, it's a win-win.


Have you remembered the names of these bands you say are having no problem touring Europe yet?

Still, all musicians can be overjoyed at the news of  Liechtenstein opening up. A truly worthy alternative.

Will UK bands start touring in Liechtenstein?



> We could only find evidence of a handful of British artists travelling to Liechtenstein over the last decade - with Status Quo, Welsh rock act Skindred and drummer Simon Phillips among those to have played there.











						Cabinet minister ridiculed for boast about saving permit-free music tours to tiny Liechtenstein
					

Agreement with alpine microstate near-identical to that offered by 27-nation EU – which UK rejected




					www.independent.co.uk
				






> A cabinet minister has been ridiculed for boasting about a deal to rescue visa-free music tours to tiny Liechtenstein – an agreement the UK rejected for the 27-nation EU.
> 
> Oliver Dowden came under fire after revealing a trade deal with three European Free Trade Association (EFTA) states included a chapter to remove barriers for performing artists and their crews.
> 
> ...


----------



## editor (Jun 9, 2021)

And Brexit keeps on delivering 









						Brexit red tape: Should I move my food businesses to the EU?
					

With more businesses relocating abroad to beat Brexit delays, customs expert Arne Mielken of Customs Manager looks at the pros and cons of setting up an EU base.




					www.foodmanufacture.co.uk


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 9, 2021)

editor said:


> Have you remembered the names of these bands you say are having no problem touring Europe yet?




Here you go again with your lies.

Please show me where I said bands were having no problem touring Europe. Thank you.


----------



## Spymaster (Jun 9, 2021)

It's Groundhog Day.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 9, 2021)

Since you can't find where I said it, I'll give you a clue; the post you think you are referring to mentioned artists, not bands. No bands are touring Europe right now. The Rolling Stones couldn't tour Europe right now, that is cos Covid means no gigs and heavy travel restrictions.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Jun 9, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> It's Groundhog Day.


Again.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jun 9, 2021)

The plutocratic reactionary forces of the EU Troika have banned our sausages....  









						Brexit sausage war as Tories attack EU banger ban - that they allowed to happen
					

The spat over sausage trade with Northern Ireland risks dragging in US President Joe Biden - as the UK brands the EU's rules "nonsensical" while the EU warns of "swift, firm" retaliation




					www.mirror.co.uk


----------



## Spymaster (Jun 9, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Since you can't find where I said it, I'll give you a clue; the post you think you are referring to mentioned artists, not bands. No bands are touring Europe right now. The Rolling Stones couldn't tour Europe right now, that is cos Covid means no gigs and heavy travel restrictions.


Please, please, please, please. please! 

No more posts about fucking bands. There’s a separate thread available for the two or three people who actually give a fuck about this.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 9, 2021)

and no more anti Liechtenstein prejudice please. Think of it as an untapped market , a new frontier .


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 9, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> and no more anti Liechtenstein prejudice please. Think of it as an untapped market , a new frontier .




Was there just last August, was very pleasant...


----------



## andysays (Jun 9, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> No, a hard border, manned with immigration officers at the ports and airports. You fly Paris to Malta there's no immigration officers or documents required, fly Paris to Dublin there are immigration officers and passports/id cards are needed.


Isn't that because Eire isn't part of Schengen?

I don't know/remember what the reasoning behind that decision was, and if it has anything to do with the common travel area between UK and Eire, and/or UK not being in Schengen.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 9, 2021)

Iceland is full of great bands , be a treat for the U.K. for them to tour once covid is over


----------



## andysays (Jun 9, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Here you go again with your lies.
> 
> Please show me where I said bands were having no problem touring Europe. Thank you.


Actually, can we please keep this whole discussion about British bands and other creative artistes touring the EU on the special thread created to discuss that because its such an important subject, worthy of its own special thread.

(this request is aimed as much at editor as Bahnhof Strasse)


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 9, 2021)

andysays said:


> Isn't that because Eire isn't part of Schengen?
> 
> I don't know/remember what the reasoning behind that decision was, and if it has anything to do with the common travel area between UK and Eire, and/or UK not being in Schengen.




100% Schengen/Common Travel Area.

But to do the same for some goods would cause the sky to fall in, according to some.


----------



## two sheds (Jun 9, 2021)

and only need one customs wallah in a cubicle to check all trucks arriving in the EU, according to others.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 9, 2021)

two sheds said:


> and only need one customs wallah in a cubicle to check all trucks arriving in the EU, according to others.




Depends how thorough you want to check them of course, as mentioned, the higher the EU forces Ireland's unemployment levels to rise the more people they can train as custom wallahs. The UK's getting an extra 50,000 apparently, UK races to find extra 50,000 staff for post-Brexit paperwork , the British Isles could become a customs based joint economy, another Brexit win.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 9, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> 100% Schengen/Common Travel Area.
> 
> But to do the same for some goods would cause the sky to fall in, according to some.


Although 5 EU member states are not part of the Schengen common visa policy, Ireland is the only one with an opt-out position necessitating its own visa policy wrt other member states.


----------



## two sheds (Jun 9, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Depends how thorough you want to check them of course, as mentioned, the higher the EU forces Ireland's unemployment levels to rise the more people they can train as custom wallahs. The UK's getting an extra 50,000 apparently, UK races to find extra 50,000 staff for post-Brexit paperwork , the British Isles could become a customs based joint economy, another Brexit win.


There's not going to be a lot of room in that cubicle


----------



## andysays (Jun 9, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Although 5 EU member states are not part of the Schengen common visa policy, *Ireland is the only one with an opt-out position necessitating its own visa policy wrt other member states*.


Can you expand/explain this bit please


----------



## brogdale (Jun 9, 2021)

andysays said:


> Can you expand/explain this bit please



From this Irish Gov site

e2a: loads on Wiki


----------



## andysays (Jun 9, 2021)

brogdale said:


> View attachment 272634
> From this Irish Gov site
> 
> e2a: loads on Wiki


Maybe I'm misunderstanding something, but I thought your previous post referred to special rules relating to travel from other EU/EEA states, whereas that wiki link appears to refer to people travelling from non EU/EEA states or people who are citizens of non EU/EEA states.

The fact that Eire is not part of the Schengen agreement means (as I understand it) that anyone travelling from Eire to the rest of the EU/EEA (except the CTA with the UK) has to show some form of paperwork to prove they're entitled to enter the Schengen area.

Is that in any different for any of the other non-Schengen EU nations?


----------



## brogdale (Jun 9, 2021)

andysays said:


> Maybe I'm misunderstanding something, but I thought your previous post referred to special rules relating to travel from other EU/EEA states, whereas that wiki link appears to refer to people travelling from non EU/EEA states or people who are citizens of non EU/EEA states.
> 
> The fact that Eire is not part of the Schengen agreement means (as I understand it) that anyone travelling from Eire to the rest of the EU/EEA (except the CTA with the UK) has to show some form of paperwork to prove they're entitled to enter the Schengen area.
> 
> Is that in any different for any of the other non-Schengen EU nations?


I think I've reached the limit of my knowledge here; maybe some of the better informed folk like Bahnhof Strasse might be able to help with that?


----------



## two sheds (Jun 9, 2021)

Or Spy could make something up  












/scarpers


----------



## gosub (Jun 9, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Well that would be grand but my point was rather that Ireland may well leave the EU in the future. I'd put money on them being the next out.


That won't work.
The EUro
You would need an exit mechanism, and I think there are other EUrozone members that are better candidates for pioneering that one


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 9, 2021)

brogdale said:


> I think I've reached the limit of my knowledge here; maybe some of the better informed folk like Bahnhof Strasse might be able to help with that?




AFAIK the non-Schengen countries all have the same rules as Ireland, i.e Schengen to Cyprus = passport/id needed and a Schengen visa* is not valid.

Schengen visa is for people who need a visa to visit a Schengen country, e.g. a Mongolian national. If that national wishes to visit multiple Schengen nations they must apply for the one they intend to visit first. They can then travel around the Schengen zone without need for additional visas**, or indeed the requirement to show a passport to pass between those states. Should they wish to visit a non-Schengen EU state they will need to show a passport to enter and if applicable, be in possession of a visa for that country. Where Ireland is a special case (and the UK was until it left) is that there is a Common Travel Area between the UK and Ireland and no documentation is required to travel between the two, however should said Mongolian have a visa for Ireland and wishes to visit the UK they would need to obtain a separate visa for the UK, there is no Common Travel Area visa. Of course the need is most commonly the other way around, you have a UK visa and wished to visit Ireland, some people have suggested flying to Belfast and getting on a train to Dublin, there are occasionally checks on the train and on the roads too, and should you be found in Dublin with no valid visa you will be an illegal immigrant and expelled, not to the UK but to your native land.

**The Mongolian travelling band with their Schengen visas will still need separate visas for each country they will perform in, should anyone get over-excited at the discovery of the Schengen visa.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 9, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Please, please, please, please. please!
> 
> No more posts about fucking bands. There’s a separate thread available for the two or three people who actually give a fuck about this.


Makes you think. Are bands actually needed? Does anybody listen to bands?


----------



## bimble (Jun 9, 2021)

Can somebody explain in simple terms why theres this rush on to get an australia trade deal in six days? why is the speed so important?








						Australian government prepared to walk away from UK free trade deal over agricultural access
					

Trade minister Dan Tehan hopes to reach an agreement in six days but says there are outstanding issues amid a pushback from British farmers




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## High Voltage (Jun 9, 2021)

bimble said:


> Can somebody explain in simple terms why theres this rush on to get an australia trade deal in six days? why is the speed so important?
> 
> 
> 
> ...





> Both sides are hoping to strike an in-principle agreement by the time the Australian prime minister, Scott Morrison, meets with Boris Johnson in London on Tuesday next week.


----------



## bimble (Jun 9, 2021)

yeah but why.
Just so the photos of them shaking hands can have 'trade agreement agreed in principle' under them?
Without a trade deal are we just not buying or selling stuff at all with the australians? i don't get it, the rush.


----------



## Supine (Jun 9, 2021)

bimble said:


> yeah but why.
> Just so the photos of them shaking hands can have 'trade agreement agreed in principle' under them?
> Without a trade deal are we just not buying or selling stuff at all with the australians? i don't get it, the rush.



all for a photo op. It really is that simple.


----------



## Spymaster (Jun 9, 2021)

gosub said:


> That won't work.
> The EUro
> You would need an exit mechanism, and I think there are other EUrozone members that are better candidates for pioneering that one


Of course it can "work", and of course there'd need to be an exit program from the monetary union. There are other states who'll be exiting too but Ireland has to be the prime candidate. They're being fucked over by the EU more than most, they're going to have tremendous issues with the corporation tax changes and huge employers buggering off, and they trade less percentage wise with the EU than most (any?) of the other member states (over 60% of their trade is non-EU, with their major trading partners being the U.S. and the U.K. iirc).

I will requote this post in 5 years when it happens.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 9, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Of course it can "work", and of course there'd need to be an exit program from the monetary union.



The Punt was pegged to the pound anyway, would be but a morning's work to to sort the money situation out.


----------



## two sheds (Jun 9, 2021)

Yes I always thought they should have kept the different currencies, just pegged them all 1:1 so £1 = 1 Franc = 1 Guilder etc etc. Countries lost some of their history there.


----------



## Yossarian (Jun 9, 2021)

Would the Irish not prefer to have the weight of the EU behind them when negotiating deals with their perfidious neighbours?


----------



## gosub (Jun 9, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Of course it can "work", and of course there'd need to be an exit program from the monetary union. There are other states who'll be exiting too but Ireland has to be the prime candidate. They're being fucked over by the EU more than most, they're going to have tremendous issues with the corporation tax changes and huge employers buggering off, and they trade less percentage wise with the EU than most (any?) of the other member states (over 60% of their trade is non-EU, with their major trading partners being the U.S. and the U.K. iirc).
> 
> I will requote this thread in 5 years when it happens.


Its not that I can't see it. But in terms of wishful thinking - Oi EUrope! sort it out! You need a major overhaul built round taxation and and organisational structure and you know it.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 9, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> Would the Irish not prefer to have the weight of the EU behind them when negotiating deals with their perfidious neighbours?




How's that going for them so far?


----------



## gosub (Jun 9, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> How's that going for them so far?


I think they got the President they wanted.


----------



## Spymaster (Jun 9, 2021)

gosub said:


> Its not that I can't see it. But in terms of wishful thinking - Oi EUrope! sort it out! You need a major overhaul built round taxation and and organisational structure and you know it.



Of course it would. And that's what will happen. You're acting like all this is impossible. It's very far from impossible.


----------



## gosub (Jun 9, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Of course it would. And that's what will happen. You're acting like all this is impossible. It's very far from impossible.


I've very much not ruled it out, however that's down to them.  In the meantime the EU is not the only one in need of an overhaul. UK needs a new constitutional settlement too. And PDQ., Trouble is off the back of the last decade (if not longer) I'm not sure our political 'elite' are up for the job.

(or maybe the old one would work if we didn't have a bunch of twats that considered themselves 'elite')


----------



## editor (Jun 9, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Depends how thorough you want to check them of course, as mentioned, the higher the EU forces Ireland's unemployment levels to rise the more people they can train as custom wallahs. The UK's getting an extra 50,000 apparently, UK races to find extra 50,000 staff for post-Brexit paperwork , the British Isles could become a customs based joint economy, another Brexit win.


So 50,000 jobs invented to serve needlessly created bureaucracy is a big win in your book? 

Are they all being paid in magic beans or do you think all those costs will eventually trickle down to everyone else?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 9, 2021)

editor said:


> So 50,000 jobs invented to serve needlessly created bureaucracy is a big win in your book?
> 
> Are they all being paid in magic beans or do you think all those costs will eventually trickle down to everyone else?




One minute you're moaning about a lack of work and the next you moan about 50,000 new jobs being created. What's the derogatory term for people who voted remain again?


----------



## editor (Jun 9, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> One minute you're moaning about a lack of work and the next you moan about 50,000 new jobs being created. What's the derogatory term for people who voted remain again?


So you're all for extra, state-funded bureaucracy - the kind of bureaucracy that increases costs and leads to small companies going bust or leaving the country, yes?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 9, 2021)

editor said:


> So you're all for extra, state-funded bureaucracy - the kind of bureaucracy that increases costs and leads to small companies going bust or leaving the country, yes?



I am all for jobs, yes, and state funded rather than capital led is even better for workers. There’s no reason that once the Covid / leaving dust settles there should be extra costs or small business going bust, indeed my own small business has been ravaged by the pandemic but since the start of May has bounced back with a number of new EU clients coming on board, three from Belgium, four from France, two from Italy and two from Germany. They would all rather deal with a company in the U.K. than a local one, I spent the downtime caused by the pandemic ensuring that I could provide services for EU clients in a seamless manner and it is now paying dividends. I could have spent  my time just moaning about how everything will be awful but that wouldn’t have been very productive.


----------



## editor (Jun 9, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> I am all for jobs, yes, and state funded rather than capital led is even better for workers. There’s no reason that once the Covid / leaving dust settles there should be extra costs or small business going bust, indeed my own small business has been ravaged by the pandemic but since the start of May has bounced back with a number of new EU clients coming on board, three from Belgium, four from France, two from Italy and two from Germany. They would all rather deal with a company in the U.K. than a local one, I spent the downtime caused by the pandemic ensuring that I could provide services for EU clients in a seamless manner and it is now paying dividends. I could have spent  my time just moaning about how everything will be awful but that wouldn’t have been very productive.


Who do you think is going to be paying for these previously unneeded jobs that are being created solely to deal with so many new layers of post-Brexit bureaucracy that some UK businesses are thinking of abandoning the UK altogether? How can that possibly be a good thing?


----------



## gosub (Jun 9, 2021)

These previously unneeded jobs  if taken up will gladly bal export capabilities which could come in handy one day if some tech head invents some kind of f virtual shopping


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 9, 2021)

editor said:


> Who do you think is going to be paying for these previously unneeded jobs that are being created solely to deal with so many new layers of post-Brexit bureaucracy that some UK businesses are thinking of abandoning the UK altogether? How can that possibly be a good thing?



Same people paying for the furlough scheme, small business owners chip in a fair whack. But I would rather my taxes went to pay a decent wage for these 50,000 than poverty existence on UC.


----------



## Raheem (Jun 9, 2021)

It's inevitably going to be paid for by cutting useful services elsewhere, though, isn't it?


----------



## editor (Jun 9, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Same people paying for the furlough scheme, small business owners chip in a fair whack. But I would rather my taxes went to pay a decent wage for these 50,000 than poverty existence on UC.


I'd rather tens of billions hadn't been wasted on the catastrophe that is Brexit, and I'd rather even more wasn't wasted creating business-destroying bureaucracy that cripples more small businesses. 

What makes you think that these jobs are going to be well paid, btw?


----------



## editor (Jun 9, 2021)

Raheem said:


> It's inevitably going to be paid for by cutting useful services elsewhere, though, isn't it?


Correct. With probably some NHS cuts thrown in. 

You can't create 50,000 previously unneeded new jobs without diverting money from elsewhere.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 9, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> I am all for jobs, yes, and state funded rather than capital led is even better for workers.


Well... A vast number of public sector workers (state funded) are on c.85-90% - maybe less - of their 2008 wage in real terms, with no prospect in sight of employers paying us what they thought we were worth 13 years ago. So yeh decent ts and cs. But in terms of wages? Not so great.


----------



## editor (Jun 9, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> Makes you think. Are bands actually needed? Does anybody listen to bands?


Millions and millions of people. Every day.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 9, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> Makes you think. Are bands actually needed? Does anybody listen to bands?


Not at the moment. Live music is largely on pause. Fortunately I can listen to Elvis or the who and Jimi Hendrix etc in the comfort of my front room.


----------



## Raheem (Jun 9, 2021)

(If it's on pause, surely it must be recorded music.)


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 9, 2021)

editor said:


> I'd rather tens of billions hadn't been wasted on the catastrophe that is Brexit, and I'd rather even more wasn't wasted creating business-destroying bureaucracy that cripples more small businesses.
> 
> What makes you think that these jobs are going to be well paid, btw?



I think they will be better laid than UC. Of course if you have figures to show that is not the case please do post them up rather keep shifting goalposts, which is rather tedious.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 9, 2021)

Raheem said:


> (If it's on pause, surely it must be recorded music.)


Figuratively speaking it's on pause. Yeh there's streamed concerts but that's like alcohol free gin


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 9, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Please show me where I said bands were having no problem touring Europe. Thank you.



Still waiting your reply to this btw.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 9, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Please, please, please, please. please!
> 
> No more posts about fucking bands. There’s a separate thread available for the one person who actually gives a fuck about this.


C4U


----------



## Poot (Jun 9, 2021)

editor said:


> Correct. With probably some NHS cuts thrown in.
> 
> You can't create 50,000 previously unneeded new jobs without diverting money from elsewhere.


I wouldn't worry too much. The article quoting 50,000 was a year old, and there were lots of similar articles at the time but it's all gone suspiciously quiet since then.

I did find this in The Grocer from January of this year:

Lack of 'competent' customs agents exacerbating border disruption

I don't think I've ever quoted The Grocer before.


----------



## editor (Jun 9, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Still waiting your reply to this btw.



Nice dirty, deceptive edit there. Here's the full sentence without your selective editing: 



> Have you remembered the names of these bands* you say are having no problem touring Europe yet?*



So what are the names of these bands?


----------



## editor (Jun 9, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> I think they will be better laid than UC. Of course if you have figures to show that is not the case please do post them up rather keep shifting goalposts, which is rather tedious.


Er, seeing as you're the one claiming the jobs will be well paid it's up to you to back that up.  So what have you got?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 9, 2021)

editor said:


> Nice dirty, deceptive edit there. Here's the full sentence without your selective editing:
> 
> 
> 
> So what are the names of these bands?



Will ask you again, please quote me saying that bands are having no problem touring Europe. Off you pop.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 9, 2021)

Checks watch.


----------



## editor (Jun 9, 2021)

Poot said:


> I wouldn't worry too much. The article quoting 50,000 was a year old, and there were lots of similar articles at the time but it's all gone suspiciously quiet since then.
> 
> I did find this in The Grocer from January of this year:
> 
> ...


And what a clusterfuck it is



> The government launched a major recruitment drive last year to recruit 50,000 customs agents to help fill the additional 260 million customs forms a year as a result of Brexit.
> 
> However, there is still believed to be a significant shortfall in agents, while many of those recruited started the job too late last year to receive appropriate training in time.
> 
> ...


----------



## Spymaster (Jun 9, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Checks watch.


You're supposed to tap it.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 9, 2021)

editor said:


> Er, seeing as you're the one claiming the jobs will be well paid it's up to you to back that up.  So what have you got?



My quote;



Bahnhof Strasse said:


> I think they will be better laid than UC.



laid is a typo for paid, apologies if that confused you. And HMRC has no inspectors who earn less than they would on UC.

Still waiting on the band quote, will check back after taking child to bed, Stig of the Dump tonight.


----------



## gosub (Jun 9, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> You're supposed to tap it.


not without a warrant


----------



## editor (Jun 9, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Checks watch.


Perhaps you've forgotten about when you were boasting about sending artists to the EU (none of which have been named, natch) 


Bahnhof Strasse said:


> And things have changed.
> 
> Ignorant clueless person who has already sent many professional artists to the EU since January can offer you a clue, you seem determined not to listen and instead lament what is no longer possible. That's not going to help you get touring again though.
> 
> A glimpse of what a clueless could enlighten you with; your band, travelling by train as it does, with guitars and drumsticks as luggage doesn't need a carnet for travel in and around the EU...


And here's where you claim that 'process of touring Europe is now very similar to that of touring the US' (clue: it's really not) and that you knew better than the MU. 









						A thank you to Brexiteers.
					

Firstly they don’t have to raise taxes to do this secondly if they did they can tax the rich , tax large companies and lastly surveys have shown that people would pay more tax for better health .  Maybe someone will fix it someday, none of the governments in my living memory has come close. I...




					www.urban75.net
				




Game, set and match and goodnight.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 9, 2021)

editor said:


> Perhaps you've forgotten about when you were boasting about sending artists to the EU (none of which have been named, natch)
> 
> And here's where you claim that 'process of touring Europe is now very similar to that of touring the US' (clue: it's really not) and that you knew better than the MU.
> 
> ...


i'm not sure that says what you've been saying it says the past few posts


----------



## editor (Jun 9, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> i'm not sure that says what you've been saying it says the past few posts


I'm not sure I agree if you reread the entire thread.

In the context of a discussion about bands playing the EU, he was boasting that he'd had no problem sending over artists 'since January' and new better than the MU.

All attempts to find out who those lucky artists were continues to fall on stony ground.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 9, 2021)

editor said:


> I'm not sure I agree if you reread the entire thread.


yeh he said artists and says he meant the figurative sort rather than the audible type, you say he means the audible type ignoring his clarification.

i don't know that the continuation of this exchange between you and him is something really worthwhile for anyone

anyway there is the musicians eu thread to pursue that avenue if you so desire


----------



## editor (Jun 9, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> i don't know that the continuation of this exchange between you and him is something really worthwhile for anyone


Or, indeed, your interruptions.


----------



## andysays (Jun 9, 2021)

editor said:


> Nice dirty, deceptive edit there. Here's the full sentence without your selective editing:
> 
> 
> 
> So what are the names of these bands?


A while ago I suggest to someone who I felt was behaving like a cunt to you that they should wind their neck in.

I'm now going to suggest that you're being repeatedly dishonest about this (BHS never said what you're claiming he said) so I'm going to suggest you stop behaving like a cunt and wind your neck in too.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 9, 2021)

editor said:


> Or, indeed, your interruptions.


you're quite at liberty to stick me on ignore like you said you'd done.

and you can't interrupt someone on urban75, it's a fucking ludicrous suggestion for you to make


----------



## Spymaster (Jun 9, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> i'm not sure that says what you've been saying it says the past few posts



A think a foot has just been shot off.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 9, 2021)

editor said:


> Perhaps you've forgotten about when you were boasting about sending artists to the EU (none of which have been named, natch)
> 
> And here's where you claim that 'process of touring Europe is now very similar to that of touring the US' (clue: it's really not) and that you knew better than the MU.
> 
> ...



Not all artists are bands or musicians. Oops.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 9, 2021)

editor said:


> Perhaps you've forgotten about when you were boasting about sending artists to the EU (none of which have been named, natch)
> 
> And here's where you claim that 'process of touring Europe is now very similar to that of touring the US' (clue: it's really not) and that you knew better than the MU.
> 
> ...



Jesus, you even quoted me saying it: Not all artists are musicians. A shocker I know.


----------



## two sheds (Jun 9, 2021)

Poot said:


> I don't think I've ever quoted The Grocer before.


I'm not surprised he's not been in power since 1974.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 9, 2021)

It's inevitably going to be paid for by cutting useful services elsewhere, though, isn't it?
 My god Raheem , is this where you’ve ended up with balance the household budget guff ? There is an alternative to the rob Peter to pay Paul scenario , and that us to welcome job creation and at the same time to defend services . It’s the same for socialists whether they are in the UK or EU .


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 9, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Jesus, you even quoted me saying it: Not all artists are musicians. A shocker I know.


‘Boasting ‘


----------



## Yossarian (Jun 9, 2021)

Conservatives in "stepping up privatisation of Customs" shocker.



> Worse still, this latest plan becomes of particular concern, when you consider that towards the end of 2020, the department embarked on a frenzy of bringing-in staff using an Employment Agency; firstly under the guise of Brexit, then by using the pandemic as an excuse to hand HMRC work (that they were suddenly pleased to call “low hanging fruit”) to the Private Sector.








						Fighting against more privatisation
					






					www.pcs.org.uk


----------



## Raheem (Jun 9, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> It's inevitably going to be paid for by cutting useful services elsewhere, though, isn't it?
> My god Raheem , is this where you’ve ended up with balance the household budget guff ? There is an alternative to the rob Peter to pay Paul scenario , and that us to welcome job creation and at the same time to defend services . It’s the same for socialists whether they are in the UK or EU .


Don't be such a useful idiot. It's not a question of whether there's any alternative in principle, just of what is destined to happen. We're not dealing with Paris Commune, and how they intend to proceed is not really a secret. Unless you're expecting a hypothecated wealth tax, then if Paul is paid, Peter will be robbed in due course. The first part is nothing to cheer for, especially if Paul is being paid to do nothing useful.


----------



## editor (Jun 9, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Jesus, you even quoted me saying it: Not all artists are musicians. A shocker I know.



But we were _specifically_ talking about bands playing Europe. You were insisting that it was the same as playing the US (nope) and that you knew better than the Musicians Union.

But if you have absolutely zero experience of touring bands playing Europe post-Brexit, maybe you should just keep quiet rather than keep on suggesting that it's something you know about with your unnamed, unspecified 'artists.'


----------



## editor (Jun 9, 2021)

andysays said:


> A while ago I suggest to someone who I felt was behaving like a cunt to you that they should wind their neck in.
> 
> I'm now going to suggest that you're being repeatedly dishonest about this (BHS never said what you're claiming he said) so I'm going to suggest you stop behaving like a cunt and wind your neck in too.


Oh it's you again. The lippy, pro-Brexit, pile-on, abusive one. I'll do as I please, thanks. And if there's any neck-winding to be done, I suggest you look closer to home. Like in your foul mouth.


----------



## Supine (Jun 9, 2021)

In other news, let’s have a trade war. So much better than cooperating with our neighbours.  









						EU threatens to suspend parts of Brexit agreement and warns ‘patience wearing thin’
					

Brussels ready to slap tariffs and quotas on UK exports – and even to ‘suspend cooperation in certain sectors’




					www.independent.co.uk


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 9, 2021)

editor said:


> But we were _specifically_ talking about bands playing Europe. You were insisting that it was the same as playing the US (nope) and that you knew better than the Musicians Union.
> 
> But if you have absolutely zero experience of touring bands playing Europe post-Brexit, maybe you should just keep quiet rather than keep on suggesting that it's something you know about with your unnamed, unspecified 'artists.'



I specifically  said then and again today that the term artists covers more than musicians and that as musicians can’t currently play anywhere none are touring. But for the purposes of Brexit all artists need a special visa, a talent visa and the only artists currently able to ply their trade need them as well as those who can’t work, such as musicians, actors and the assorted artists that accompany such acts. You wilfully, repeatedly choose to ignore the fact I have been sending those artists that are able to work without such as a visa as we have devised a work-around. Rather you choose to sit there like a petulant child bleating ‘bands’ ‘musicians’ when you know full well they can’t play right now and that by doing so and repeating the same crap time after time to show how displeased you are with Brexit you are being dishonest to the core.

I have offered to previously pm you the names of the artists, I am certainly not going to name them on the fucking boards, another thing you choose to ignore as it doesn’t suit your point yet still keep repeating.


----------



## bimble (Jun 9, 2021)

The independent is pretty much unreadable isn’t it, but here’s the same grim update.









						EU-UK talks on Northern Ireland appear close to collapse on eve of G7
					

‘Patience wearing very thin,’ says EU negotiator, while Joe Biden expected to raise ‘deep concerns’ about issue at summit




					www.theguardian.com
				




They either didn’t understand what they were agreeing to or they didn’t give a fuck what the agreement said cos they intended all along to just wing it and do whatever else instead. 
This really isn’t looking very good, no resolution in sight for an entirely predictable problem & the boss of America coming over to berate Johnson as well now.


----------



## editor (Jun 9, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> I specifically  said then and again today that the term artists covers more than musicians and that as musicians can’t currently play anywhere none are touring. But for the purposes of Brexit all artists need a special visa, a talent visa and the only artists currently able to ply their trade need them as well as those who can’t work, such as musicians, actors and the assorted artists that accompany such acts. You wilfully, repeatedly choose to ignore the fact I have been sending those artists that are able to work without such as a visa as we have devised a work-around. Rather you choose to sit there like a petulant child bleating ‘bands’ ‘musicians’ when you know full well they can’t play right now and that by doing so and repeating the same crap time after time to show how displeased you are with Brexit you are being dishonest to the core.
> 
> I have offered to previously pm you the names of the artists, I am certainly not going to name them on the fucking boards, another thing you choose to ignore as it doesn’t suit your point yet still keep repeating.


I think you need to sit down and have a cup of tea before you EXPLODE.  😂 

Your subsequent reinventing and reimagining of the discussion really does you no good here, but for the benefit of other readers, I'm going to ignore you for a few days. I strongly suggest you do the same.


----------



## ska invita (Jun 9, 2021)

bimble said:


> They either didn’t understand what they were agreeing to or they didn’t give a fuck what the agreement said cos they intended all along to just wing it and do whatever else instead.


Definitely #2, definitely not #1
They even bragged they wouldnt follow it before signing it
cakeandeatism


----------



## bimble (Jun 9, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Definitely #2, definitely not #1
> They even bragged they wouldnt follow it before signing it


What was the point of running it up to Xmas eve with the whole ‘we’re prepared for no deal’ drama then just showmanship? Idk. I think it’s quite possible they just didn’t think things through at all.


----------



## gosub (Jun 9, 2021)

editor said:


> Oh it's you again. The lippy, pro-Brexit, pile-on, abusive one. I'll do as I please, thanks. And if there's any neck-winding to be done, I suggest you look closer to home. Like in your foul mouth.


Will become an incresingly lonely furrow.....They made Juncker Head of the Commisson expressly against the UK's wishes and called it democratic despite the EPP not fielding UK candidates in the EUro election that made him  Spitzenkandidat, a process they dropped for von der Leyen in the EUros we didn't take part in.. Cameron then haggled away a veto stopping EUrozone quorum for a temporary suspension of freedom of movement though the EU had already contemptuously done a work around of the veto anyway.  And there had to be a referendum, they'd mandated by law there would be one with any further treaty change, which would have fucked any treaty across the whole of EUrope unless they'd ignored it but they've done that before to France and Ireland.  In my eyes they've fucked this up in way "what price democracy?" is spreadsheetable.  But what price democracy.  There's what-aboutary  surrounding the UK second chamber setup (I'd agree it needs sorting, though take some regional inputs ffs) but the setup with the EU was as if Lords was where stuff was run from and MP's just doing the tinkering.

A few posts back you called Brexit a disaster, not excepting that referendum outcome would have been an even bigger one.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 9, 2021)

editor said:


> I think you need to sit down and have a cup of tea before you EXPLODE.  😂
> 
> Your subsequent reinventing and reimagining of the discussion really does you no good here, but for the benefit of other readers, I'm going to ignore you for a few days. I strongly suggest you do the same.



Explode  

Remember to keep the ignore going when the scrumpy wears off.


----------



## editor (Jun 9, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Ok, remember to keep the ignore going when the scrumpy wears off.


 
I don't drink scrumpy and I'm certainly not drunk now. But seeing as you now want to throw around the cheap insults, you're on mutual ignore for 48 hours.


----------



## ska invita (Jun 9, 2021)

bimble said:


> What was the point of running it up to Xmas eve with the whole ‘we’re prepared for no deal’ drama then just showmanship? Idk. I think it’s quite possible they just didn’t think things through at all.


Absolutely inconceivable.
The time they didn't think it through was before the referendum was won. No one was talking about Northern Ireland in the run up. No one cared.
 After that it creates a conundrum that means a binary choice between alignment with the EU and no border, or non-alignment and a border. Nonalignment is the point of Johnson's Brexit so of course that wins. And so a border has to be created and enforced. But they don't want a border. But they want their cake and to eat it. So this is the end result. Arrogance and bluster has got them all this far in life, so there's plenty more of that now


----------



## bimble (Jun 9, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Absolutely inconceivable.
> The time they didn't think it through was before the referendum was won. No one was talking about Northern Ireland in the run up. No one cared.
> After that it creates a conundrum that means a binary choice between alignment with the EU and no border, or non-alignment and a border. Nonalignment is the point of Johnson's Brexit so of course that wins. And so a border has to be created and enforced. But they don't want a border. But they want their cake and to eat it. So this is the end result. Arrogance and bluster has got them all this far in life, so there's plenty more of that now


All of that makes sense but so what do they hope will happen next? That Uk can unilaterally do things against the agreement it signed and the EU will just politely ignore this and carry on, I suppose. That seems not just optimistic but really stupid.


----------



## Dystopiary (Jun 9, 2021)

Supine said:


> In other news, let’s have a trade war. So much better than cooperating with our neighbours.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This is one reason I opposed Brexit; whatever the postivies and negatives of being part of the EU, I didn't trust the government to implement a decent exit. They didn't even come up with a deal with the EU until Christmas Eve. You can't trust this shower of shit with anything that benefits anyone but themselves.


----------



## Smangus (Jun 9, 2021)

This is not a rules/law based Gvt, look at what they have done in the UK since 2019, they are not going to change their behavior for the EU-probably quite the opposite. They do not think they should be held to account by *anyone*.

My guess is they will push the EU to retaliate with some sanctions, cry foul and play it at home for all the votes it's worth and fuck the consequences for normal people.


----------



## Dystopiary (Jun 9, 2021)

Smangus said:


> This is not a rules/law based Gvt, look at what they have done in the UK since 2019, they are not going to change their behavior for the EU-probably quite the opposite. They do not think they should be held to account by *anyone*.
> 
> My guess is they will push the EU to retaliate with some sanctions, cry foul and play it at home for all the votes it's worth and fuck the consequences for normal people.


Yep, and the corporate press will be all, "Look how horribly the EU behaves towards us, this is why it's good that we left" instead of pointing out what duplicitous pieces of shit are in government.


----------



## Raheem (Jun 9, 2021)

bimble said:


> All of that makes sense but so what do they hope will happen next? That Uk can unilaterally do things against the agreement it signed and the EU will just politely ignore this and carry on, I suppose. That seems not just optimistic but really stupid.


I think the team that did the negotiation was narrowly drawn and people were chosen for their magical thinking and can-do attitude. Plus Johnson insisted on playing team captain but wasn't very engaged. So I think there was never a detailed plan, but a belief that you could carry on negotiating after the agreement was signed, because that's just what a lot of Brexiteers believed. But I think now they're moving on to "have a trade war, deny responsibility".


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 9, 2021)

Raheem said:


> Don't be such a useful idiot. It's not a question of whether there's any alternative in principle, just of what is destined to happen. We're not dealing with Paris Commune, and how they intend to proceed is not really a secret. Unless you're expecting a hypothecated wealth tax, then if Paul is paid, Peter will be robbed in due course. The first part is nothing to cheer for, especially if Paul is being paid to do nothing useful.


I think we are in rats' alley
Where the dead men lost their bones.


----------



## Raheem (Jun 9, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> I think we are in rats' alley
> Where the dead men lost their bones.


I met a hula mistress somewhere in Waikiki
Where she was selling pineapple playing ukulele


----------



## Badgers (Jun 11, 2021)




----------



## Badgers (Jun 12, 2021)

__





						Fruit farming on 'brink of collapse' as Brexit causes shortage of pickers
					

Brexit has caused a 'massive hole' in the numbers of people coming to the UK to pick fruit in the summer months, it has been claimed.



					metro.co.uk
				




The Government has expanded its seasonal workers pilot quota for this year from 10,000 to 30,000 places.

 could there have been away to avoid this?


----------



## Badgers (Jun 12, 2021)




----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jun 12, 2021)

Badgers said:


>



Yeah, I've been grape picking in France. It's hard work, no doubt. But the same people turn up every year there as well, and they want the work. Of course they do. The idea that they might give a shit about what some local people think about them is bizarre tbh. They won't give a flying fuck. It's a nice little annual earner.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 13, 2021)

The five hundred pounds worth of tests and 10 days quarantine, plus travelling to a country where Covid is on the rise again has no bearing on this. None.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 13, 2021)

Badgers said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Not a particular UK problem 









						Coronavirus costs climb as Europe's farmers seek seasonal workers
					

Fruit and vegetable harvests are underway in western Europe with seasonal workers gathering crops in top producer Spain, but costs are rising as farmers fear a third wave of COVID-19 might cause a repeat of 2020's damaging disruptions in labour supply.




					www.reuters.com


----------



## brogdale (Jun 13, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Not a particular UK problem
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Just a particular UK cause.


----------



## Elpenor (Jun 13, 2021)

When I visited Cyprus every other week in 2016, from February to August, I drove a lot in the area between Limassol and Paphos, most of the agricultural workers in the fields I saw were Vietnamese, or at least wearing clothing and headwear that are identifiable as Vietnamese, I didn’t get out of the car and check their passports!


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 13, 2021)

Elpenor said:


> When I visited Cyprus every other week in 2016, from February to August, I drove a lot in the area between Limassol and Paphos, most of the agricultural workers in the fields I saw were Vietnamese, or at least wearing clothing and headwear that are identifiable as Vietnamese, I didn’t get out of the car and check their passports!


What, wearing black pajamas and conical hats?


----------



## Elpenor (Jun 13, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> What, wearing black pajamas and conical hats?



I remember the hats yes. My partner of the time identified them as Vietnamese - they were from East Asia and seemed confident they were right. They later checked with a Vietnamese colleague in the office. And I’m certain we saw a lot of people my partner thought were Vietnamese in Limassol one Sunday, having picnics on the boardwalk.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 13, 2021)

Elpenor said:


> When I visited Cyprus every other week in 2016, from February to August, I drove a lot in the area between Limassol and Paphos, most of the agricultural workers in the fields I saw were Vietnamese, or at least wearing clothing and headwear that are identifiable as Vietnamese, I didn’t get out of the car and check their passports!



Lots of construction going on in Paphos at the time, iirc. Was going to be some kind of center of culture the following year.


----------



## andysays (Jun 13, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Just a particular UK cause.


There are clearly two potential causes here, and it's difficult to determine exactly how much influence each has, but if farms in other countries are experiencing similar problems on a similar scale, that suggests to me that the main immediate cause is likely to be Covid rather than Brexit.


----------



## Elpenor (Jun 13, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> Lots of construction going on in Paphos at the time, iirc. Was going to be some kind of center of culture the following year.


Tended to see them between Kourion and Aphrodite’s rock


----------



## DJWrongspeed (Jun 13, 2021)

Just watching a Sky News summary of the G7 summit and it's pretty damning. The whole continuing Brexit arguments appear to other leaders as a distraction to the main issues of Covid vaccine , climate change and everything else. Brexit will drag on ad infinitum distracting from the bigger issues. Once outside the block we're setting ourselves up for trade negotiations forever.


----------



## Ax^ (Jun 14, 2021)




----------



## ddraig (Jun 14, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Explode
> 
> Remember to keep the ignore going when the scrumpy wears off.


Why do you think this is ok? 
Do you think your industry is being attacked and feel affronted??


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 14, 2021)

ddraig said:


> Why do you think this is ok?
> Do you think your industry is being attacked and feel affronted??



Do you really want to go back over it?
Here you go; poster A stated that he can move artists around Europe with no visa. Poster B assumed poster A was talking about musicians, poster A corrected poster B on that. Time passed and poster B steams back on to the thread with demands poster A name the bands poster A is moving. Poster A reminds B that not all artists are musicians, other posters also pointed out that poster B had got it wrong yet again, poster B accused poster A of being about to explode, which is a really silly thing to say, the kind of thing people often say when alcohol has been taken. Poster B, having twice read the same situation incorrectly then turns in to a mod and imposes forced ignore.

What is not OK about this? Apart from the usual moderator abuse?


----------



## ddraig (Jun 14, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Do you really want to go back over it?
> Here you go; poster A stated that he can move artists around Europe with no visa. Poster B assumed poster A was talking about musicians, poster A corrected poster B on that. Time passed and poster B steams back on to the thread with demands poster A name the bands poster A is moving. Poster A reminds B that not all artists are musicians, other posters also pointed out that poster B had got it wrong yet again, poster B accused poster A of being about to explode, which is a really silly thing to say, the kind of thing people often say when alcohol has been taken. Poster B, having twice read the same situation incorrectly then turns in to a mod and imposes forced ignore.
> 
> What is not OK about this? Apart from the usual moderator abuse?


I thought making comments/insinuations/digs about posters drinking (whether true or not) was frowned upon and generally considered a bit far?
Wasn't asking for your repeated run down/version


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 14, 2021)

ddraig said:


> I thought making comments/insinuations/digs about posters drinking (whether true or not) was frowned upon and generally considered a bit far?
> Wasn't asking for your repeated run down/version



Insinuating / digs that they are going to explode is OK is it?


----------



## ddraig (Jun 14, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Insinuating / digs that they are going to explode is OK is it?


It's not on the same level as drinking insinuations/digs imho
Anyway, carry on, sorry for asking/making the point


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 14, 2021)

Apology accepted.


----------



## ddraig (Jun 14, 2021)

Oh dear


----------



## editor (Jun 14, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Do you really want to go back over it?
> Here you go; poster A stated that he can move artists around Europe with no visa. Poster B assumed poster A was talking about musicians, poster A corrected poster B on that. Time passed and poster B steams back on to the thread with demands poster A name the bands poster A is moving. Poster A reminds B that not all artists are musicians, other posters also pointed out that poster B had got it wrong yet again, poster B accused poster A of being about to explode, which is a really silly thing to say, the kind of thing people often say when alcohol has been taken. Poster B, having twice read the same situation incorrectly then turns in to a mod and imposes forced ignore.
> 
> What is not OK about this? Apart from the usual moderator abuse?


In an ongoing discussion strongly focussed on the well documented problems that small bands and musicians were facing playing Europe because of Brexit,  you piped up saying you knew better.

Except it appears that you know _fuck all_ about small bands playing Europe, while refusing to name these 'artists' you've been arranged travel for, or explaining what they actually do. So why don't you tell everyone now so they can decide if they have any relevance? 

And to clear things up: do you think Brexit has made touring in Europe considerably harder for smaller bands or not?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 14, 2021)

This is the third time I am stating that I will not name my customers on the boards, what sort of fool are you to keep asking me that? I have offered twice to PM you some of their names if you are that fucking desperate to know.

And a reminder that you are supposed to keep threads on topic, the bands with a small number of people who want to hear them being fucked by Brexit thread is —->


----------



## editor (Jun 14, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> This is the third time I am stating that I will not name my customers on the boards, what sort of fool are you to keep asking me that? I have offered twice to PM you some of their names if you are the fucking desperate to know.
> 
> And a reminder that you are supposed to keep threads on topic, the bands with a small number of people who want to hear them thread being fucked by Brexit is —->


Then why bring them up to prove points that you are unable to support?

And, again:  to clear things up: do you think Brexit has made touring in Europe considerably harder for smaller bands or not?

Oh, I must have missed your offer of PMs to name these mysterious 'artists' - feel free to do so now.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Jun 14, 2021)

DJWrongspeed said:


> Brexit will drag on ad infinitum distracting from the bigger issues. Once outside the block we're setting ourselves up for trade negotiations forever.



as i have said somewhere on one of the threads, i suspect there will be a manufactured argument, probably involving that twat johnson sending a gunboat somewhere, just before every election for the foreseeable future...


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 14, 2021)

editor said:


> Oh, I must have missed your offer of PMs to name these mysterious 'artists' - feel free to do so now.






Bahnhof Strasse said:


> ffs, most of my customers who identify as artists are not musicians, I did just say that. And I am certainly not going to publicly name them here, will PM you if you're that bothered. They do however need special visas now to visit the EU, unless they use a work-around that their clever travel agent has set up for them.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 14, 2021)

editor said:


> And, again:  to clear things up: do you think Brexit has made touring in Europe considerably harder for smaller bands or not?



Probably, but we don’t know for as you well know no bands have toured this year.

The problems anticipated can, especially for small bands be mitigated if you listen to people who are moving people around who face the same regulations that musicians now face. But it seems that remainers too have had enough of experts, so carry on impotently ranting if it makes you happy.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Jun 14, 2021)

Can. You. Take. This. To. The. Proper. Cunting. Thread. Please. Ta.


----------



## editor (Jun 14, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Probably, but we don’t know for as you well know no bands have toured this year.
> 
> The problems anticipated can, especially for small bands be mitigated if you listen to people who are moving people around who face the same regulations that musicians now face. But it seems that remainers too have had enough of experts, so carry on impotently ranting if it makes you happy.


PM please. I want to see if these 'artists' have the slightest relevance to small bands touring a post Brexit Europe. I suspect they won't.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 14, 2021)

editor said:


> PM please. I want to see if these 'artists' have the slightest relevance to small bands touring a post Brexit Europe. I suspect they won't.



Just have, fill yer boots.


----------



## Spymaster (Jun 14, 2021)

S☼I said:


> Can. You. Take. This. To. The. Proper. Cunting. Thread. Please. Ta.


Nah, this is getting good


----------



## editor (Jun 15, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Just have, fill yer boots.


So I got a list of (presumably famous) make up artists, fashion editors and stylists I've never heard of, and not a single semi-pro/small band or musician currently playing playing Europe. Nothing. Just non musical business people that you describe as 'artists'.

No gigs, no festivals, no self managed small bands, and nothing even slightly relevant to the discussion about how Brexit has totally fucked over those kind of bands.

I'm sure you're excellent at your job in securing European visas for successful individuals in the fashion trade, but you've just proved to be me that you know absolutely nothing about the problems small bands playing Europe.

I note that you concede that the only two (well known) bands you're involved with haven't played Europe at all in the last 16 months either. If it's still all  so easy as you keep claiming, why not?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 15, 2021)

For fuck sales. I did not secure visas, I wrote that to you in black and fucking white. I arranged a work around that also would work for musicians, actors and all artists. You just don’t want to listen as it doesn’t suit your agenda. There really is no helping some people. Enjoy not touring.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 15, 2021)

editor said:


> So I got a list of (presumably famous) make up *artists*, fashion editors and stylists I've never heard of, and not a single semi-pro/small band or musician currently playing playing Europe. Nothing. Just non musical business *people that you describe as 'artists'.*


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 15, 2021)

editor said:


> I note that you concede that the only two (well known) bands you're involved with haven't played Europe at all in the last 16 months either. If it's still all  so easy as you keep claiming, why not?



COVID you utter fool.

If you really are this moronically stupid as to not understand when I said they have not toured due to Covid I mean they have not toured due to Covid then there is no way you should be allowed out of the country anyway, so it is good that you are not interested in understanding how your band can tour Europe again.


----------



## Smangus (Jun 15, 2021)

Seems Covid silliness has hit it's height on this thread. Maybe band talk should be banned.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 15, 2021)

Smangus said:


> Seems Covid silliness has hit it's height on this thread. Maybe band talk should be banned.


yeh no more groupthink


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 15, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> For fuck sales. I did not secure visas, I wrote that to you in black and fucking white. I arranged a work around that also would work for musicians, actors and all artists. You just don’t want to listen as it doesn’t suit your agenda. There really is no helping some people. Enjoy not touring.


there are none so blind as those who will not see


----------



## Smangus (Jun 15, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh no more groupthink


circular groupthink...


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 15, 2021)

S☼I said:


> Can. You. Take. This. To. The. Proper. Cunting. Thread. Please. Ta.


you might as well as for the moon on a stick while you're about it


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 15, 2021)

Smangus said:


> circular groupthink...


----------



## Smangus (Jun 15, 2021)

Think we're a beat combo away from a lynching...


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jun 15, 2021)

Finally we can use the Furlong again!


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jun 15, 2021)

We've never stopped using any of those btw.


----------



## gosub (Jun 15, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> We've never stopped using any of those btw.











						Metric martyr dies
					

A greengrocer whose stubborn refusal to abandon imperial weights and measures led to him being dubbed a Metric Martyr has died from a suspected heart attack at the age of 39.




					www.google.com


----------



## Raheem (Jun 15, 2021)

gosub said:


> Metric martyr dies
> 
> 
> A greengrocer whose stubborn refusal to abandon imperial weights and measures led to him being dubbed a Metric Martyr has died from a suspected heart attack at the age of 39.
> ...


Think the Guardian's wording there is incorrect. Traders have never been banned from using imperial measures. He was prosecuted for refusing to also display metric measures.

TBF, though, he is definitely not able to sell anything in ounces now.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 15, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Finally we can use the Furlong again!


Some of us on here are long enough in the tooth to be able to remember way back when you could order *a pint *in a boozer...until those cheese-surrendering, crypto-Marxist fascists from Brussels made us......blah, blah...


----------



## gosub (Jun 15, 2021)

Raheem said:


> Think the Guardian's wording there is incorrect. Traders have never been banned from using imperial measures. He was prosecuted for refusing to also display metric measures.
> 
> TBF, though, he is definitely not able to sell anything in ounces now.


Nope:  Metric Martyrs 20 years on - how some bananas sold in Sunderland led to Brexit


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 15, 2021)

gosub said:


> Nope:  Metric Martyrs 20 years on - how some bananas sold in Sunderland led to Brexit


i see your article misses off janet devers




__





						BBC NEWS | England | London | 'Metric martyr' broke trading law
					






					news.bbc.co.uk


----------



## Raheem (Jun 15, 2021)

gosub said:


> Nope:  Metric Martyrs 20 years on - how some bananas sold in Sunderland led to Brexit


Not sure what that link is meant to demonstrate, but here is what was said in the Metric Martyrs court judgment:

_...while the use of imperial measures as primary indicators for the sale of goods loose in bulk had ceased to be lawful on 1st January 2000, their use as supplementary indicators was now permitted until 1st January 2010; and that remains the position._

Link

(In the event, the Government u-turned, and imperial measurements just continued to be permitted.)


----------



## Dystopiary (Jun 15, 2021)

At least we can have straight bananas now. 
Or was it curved? 
Thank you Brexit. 
#Britishbananas


----------



## Lucy Fur (Jun 15, 2021)

Dystopiary said:


> At least we can have straight bananas now.
> Or was it curved?
> Thank you Brexit.
> #Britishbananas


Bananas, pah!
#filthyforrinfood.


----------



## gosub (Jun 15, 2021)

Dystopiary said:


> At least we can have straight bananas now.
> Or was it curved?
> Thank you Brexit.
> #Britishbananas


No cos its a WTO thing.
This whole code ld have been a chance to o bring some clarity and transparency to the m myriad of regulation we live under.


----------



## Spymaster (Jun 15, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> COVID you utter fool.
> 
> If you really are this moronically stupid as to not understand when I said they have not toured due to Covid I mean they have not toured due to Covid then there is no way you should be allowed out of the country anyway, so it is good that you are not interested in understanding how your band can tour Europe again.



Indeed. 




A somewhat more honest way to shift goalposts.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 15, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> i see your article misses off janet devers
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Smash imperialism


----------



## Spymaster (Jun 15, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Indeed.
> 
> View attachment 273676
> 
> ...



I got a warning for that ????????????? 

"Mutual ignore means mutual ignore" apparently.  

I quoted someone who I'm NOT on "mutual ignore" with, with no direct reference to anyone I am!

Yet someone who I AM on "mutual ignore" with has failed to _ignore_ my post and warned me for it.

WTF's going on?


----------



## Badgers (Jun 16, 2021)




----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 16, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> I got a warning for that ?????????????
> 
> "Mutual ignore means mutual ignore" apparently.
> 
> ...


Not surprised you've been subjected to a mayism

In addition mutual ignore is a one-way street I see


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Jun 16, 2021)

Boris Johnson hailed his post Brexit trade deal with Australia as a new dawn for both countries.  This deal, which parliament doesn't get to scrutinize,  will see the elimination of tariffs on imports from Australia which will likely damage the UK farming industry but usher in very slightly cheaper wine.   This post Brexit deal will likely be the template for others down the road.  It's contents is more bad and ugly than good.


----------



## two sheds (Jun 16, 2021)

You'd hope that agreements like these that don't go through parliament could be dismissed by parliamentary vote from a future government. Of course they won't/can't though.


----------



## mauvais (Jun 16, 2021)

gosub said:


> Metric martyr dies
> 
> 
> A greengrocer whose stubborn refusal to abandon imperial weights and measures led to him being dubbed a Metric Martyr has died from a suspected heart attack at the age of 39.
> ...


Dead at 39 isn't a great innings is it, maybe don't stress yourself out about weights and measures.

Although I suppose in imperial that's 85.9803.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 16, 2021)

mauvais said:


> Dead at 39 isn't a great innings is it, maybe don't stress yourself out about weights and measures.
> 
> Although I suppose in imperial that's 85.9803.


Years are hardly metric are they
7 day weeks
12 months in a year
365 days in the year: most of the time
24 hours in a day


----------



## MrSki (Jun 16, 2021)

Well I expect a return of lots of Aussies behind the ramp in pubs again.


----------



## ska invita (Jun 16, 2021)

MrSki said:


> Well I expect a return of lots of Aussies behind the ramp in pubs again.


That's the plan, yes 








						CANZUK - Wikipedia
					






					en.m.wikipedia.org


----------



## Spymaster (Jun 16, 2021)

MrSki said:


> Well I expect a return of lots of Aussies behind the ramp in pubs again.





#benefitsofbrexit


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 16, 2021)

Badgers said:


>





His figures of Australias needed is 1800 out.



And he's focussing on GDP, which as we all know is a bobbins measurement in the first place.


Other than that, blindin' tweet


----------



## 2hats (Jun 16, 2021)

That's a relief. Only 199 similar deals needed to offset then.


----------



## Spymaster (Jun 16, 2021)

Badgers said:


>




Bummer. And there we were, all thinking that one deal was all it would take.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jun 16, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Other than that, blindin' tweet



He's paid for that type of 'analysis' as well...


----------



## editor (Jun 16, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> His figures of Australias needed is 1800 out.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Perhaps you can supply a set of figures that reveal why this is, in fact, an amazing deal for everyone?


----------



## Sasaferrato (Jun 16, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Increased wage rates as companies compete for a workforce that is smaller given no free movement now.
> Scaffolder mate for instance is now getting over £200 a day now.


I read somewhere that wages are up 8.4% in the last year. The article was actually about state pension increases. 
An 8.4% increase would be nice, but would cost about £5Bn.


----------



## Badgers (Jun 16, 2021)

MrSki said:


> Well I expect a return of lots of Aussies behind the ramp in pubs again.


Great to have a load of racists over to fuel the fire


----------



## gosub (Jun 16, 2021)

Perhaps you can supply a set of figures that reveal why this is, in fact, an amazing deal for everyone?
[/QUOTE]

Some really good bands and comics come out of Australia


----------



## gosub (Jun 16, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Great to have a load of racists over to fuel the fire


Calling all Australians racist is slightly racist n'est pa's?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 16, 2021)

editor said:


> Perhaps you can supply a set of figures that reveal why this is, in fact, an amazing deal for everyone?




I shall no longer be replying to you, for as this thread has amply demonstrated, you are incapable of understanding even quite basic concepts here and bang on endlessly about your strawmen whilst moving the goalposts until your position becomes untenable and you then invoke mod-powers and impose mutual-ignore or other sanctions to try and get away from the situation you have created for yourself.

I should be grateful if you refrain from replying to, or quoting me again too. Thank you.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jun 16, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Great to have a load of racists over to fuel the fire



All Australians are racist. All Europeans are progressives.


----------



## Supine (Jun 16, 2021)




----------



## gosub (Jun 16, 2021)

Supine said:


> View attachment 273755


I'm guessing live exports isn't going to be much of a thing


----------



## Smangus (Jun 16, 2021)

Supine said:


> View attachment 273755



Back to the 1950's wit yer!


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 16, 2021)

Supine said:


> View attachment 273755


I like the last line where despite the number of posters on here meaning about the heat that it isn’t intense heat .


----------



## editor (Jun 16, 2021)

Supine said:


> View attachment 273755


How can anyone with any marbles left in their brain declare this as some sort of good news for British people? It's a fucking catastrophe.


----------



## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Jun 16, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> I did not secure visas, I wrote that to you in black and fucking white. I arranged a work around that also would work for musicians.


I'm curious. What is the workaround that would allow me to tour/play a festival in the EU again without needing a visa?


----------



## Sasaferrato (Jun 16, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Finally we can use the Furlong again!



If you are an aficionada of horse racing, you will realise that furlongs never went away.


----------



## editor (Jun 16, 2021)

ATOMIC SUPLEX said:


> I'm curious. What is the workaround that would allow me to tour/play a festival in the EU again without needing a visa?


Good luck with that one.


----------



## Spymaster (Jun 16, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Great to have a load of racists over to fuel the fire



Eh?

Seriously?

Wow.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 16, 2021)

ATOMIC SUPLEX said:


> I'm curious. What is the workaround that would allow me to tour/play a festival in the EU again without needing a visa?




PM'd you, it isn't something that should be shouted about in the public domain.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 16, 2021)

Sasaferrato said:


> If you are an aficionada of horse racing, you will realise that furlongs never went away.


I think my first allotment contract had the measurements in rods and poles or something obscure.


----------



## Spymaster (Jun 16, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> All Australians are racist. All Europeans are progressives.



No racists in Europe.

No sireee!


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jun 16, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> No racists in Europe.
> 
> No sireee!



Can’t we just deport remain voters/old people/rough working class types to fascist Australia and replace them with inherently progressive plumbers, baristas and so on from EU countries like Hungary?


----------



## andysays (Jun 16, 2021)

two sheds said:


> You'd hope that agreements like these that don't go through parliament could be dismissed by parliamentary vote from a future government. Of course they won't/can't though.


I'm pretty sure that any agreement entered into by government can potentially be dismissed by a future government, which is essentially what the whole. Brexit process is.

But as we've seen, unless we simply walk away from previous agreements saying fuck the consequences, which is rarely an option, the process of coming to a new agreement can be fraught with danger, especially when overseen by idiots...


----------



## two sheds (Jun 16, 2021)

andysays said:


> I'm pretty sure that any agreement entered into by government can potentially be dismissed by a future government, which is essentially what the whole. Brexit process is.
> 
> But as we've seen, unless we simply walk away from previous agreements saying fuck the consequences, which is rarely an option, the process of coming to a new agreement can be fraught with danger, especially when overseen by idiots...


The other party to the agreement will doubtless be able to sue for lost future profits though, doubtless written into the agreement. You'd also hope the Government could dismiss liability and transfer the debt to Johnson as the one who signed the contract  .

Eta a statement by Labour that they wouldn't honour any agreement not passed by Parliament would be entertaining, although highly unlikely.


----------



## andysays (Jun 16, 2021)

editor said:


> Perhaps you can supply a set of figures that reveal why this is, in fact, an amazing deal for everyone?


Did you ever supply any figures to actually demonstrate why Brexit specifically has  meant your band has gone from a profitable proposition to an economic impossibility, or are you continuing to demand from others stuff you're not prepared to supply yourself?


----------



## Badgers (Jun 17, 2021)




----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 17, 2021)

Rumainian?



Good the police are taking it seriously.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Jun 17, 2021)

Deleted


----------



## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Jun 17, 2021)

Remainian


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 17, 2021)

Romulan


----------



## Spymaster (Jun 17, 2021)

Remoaniac


----------



## dessiato (Jun 17, 2021)

My wife had a job interview at the beginning of the week. It went well. She has just been told that despite this, they need an EU citizen for the job. Before Brexit this would not have been a problem.


----------



## Ax^ (Jun 17, 2021)

MrSki said:


> Well I expect a return of lots of Aussies behind the ramp in pubs again.



not unless pub start paying a lot more to get thru Patels little hoops


----------



## Brainaddict (Jun 17, 2021)

Enjoyed finding the right customs code, printing out three copies of the customs form, tracking down an envelope, and sticking it to the parcel with sellotape today, just in order to send back an incorrect item sent to me by a seller in Germany.

Obviously it doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things but the sellotape was near the end of the roll and now I'll have to buy a new roll


----------



## two sheds (Jun 17, 2021)

There's a sellotape glut in Germany if you're interested. Sellotape mountain.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Jun 17, 2021)

Brainaddict said:


> Enjoyed finding the right customs code, printing out three copies of the customs form, tracking down an envelope, and sticking it to the parcel with sellotape today, just in order to send back an incorrect item sent to me by a seller in Germany.
> 
> Obviously it doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things but the sellotape was near the end of the roll and now I'll have to buy a new roll



This is a sore point with we philatelists.

Postage stamps may be zero rated for VAT*, or rated at 5%. Ebay is smacking 20% on all non-UK purchases.

This has killed business for EU sellers pretty much dead. Buying on Ebay, you are buying retail, retail plus 20% is just not going to happen.

I'm now buying only from the UK.

'Stamps over 100 years old or cancelled are 5%, usable stamps 20%, demonetized stamps should be 5%, but everything is getting clobbered at 20%.

No, I didn't vote to leave.


----------



## Brainaddict (Jun 17, 2021)

two sheds said:


> There's a sellotape glut in Germany if you're interested. Sellotape mountain.


Probably cost more in customs fees to send it than to make it myself out of oil and horse bones


----------



## Brainaddict (Jun 17, 2021)

Sasaferrato said:


> This is a sore point with we philatelists.
> 
> Postage stamps may be zero rated for VAT*, or rated at 5%. Ebay is smacking 20% on all non-UK purchases.
> 
> ...


Surely leaves a gap in the market for a specialist site that knows how to tax stamps. Set it up yourself with some off-the-shelf ecommerce software and remortgage your house to get it off the ground - that's the kind of thrusting, dynamic capitalism Brexit was meant to bring out of all of us!


----------



## two sheds (Jun 17, 2021)

Brainaddict said:


> Probably cost more in customs fees to send it than to make it myself out of oil and horse bones


and not sure you'd be receiving it before the next time you need to sellotape up the next returns


----------



## Sasaferrato (Jun 17, 2021)

Brainaddict said:


> Surely leaves a gap in the market for a specialist site that knows how to tax stamps. Set it up yourself with some off-the-shelf ecommerce software and remortgage your house to get it off the ground - that's the kind of thrusting, dynamic capitalism Brexit was meant to bring out of all of us!


I am retired.


----------



## two sheds (Jun 17, 2021)

Pah no drive. Alternatively a profitable smuggling operation beckons.


----------



## Brainaddict (Jun 17, 2021)

Sasaferrato said:


> I am retired.


So was Captain Tom.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Jun 17, 2021)

Brainaddict said:


> So was Captain Tom.


He was more motivated than me.


----------



## dessiato (Jun 17, 2021)

Sasaferrato said:


> He was more motivated than me.


But he was RAF.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Jun 17, 2021)

dessiato said:


> But he was RAF.


I don't hold that against him, he was young and foolish.


----------



## Supine (Jun 17, 2021)

dessiato said:


> My wife had a job interview at the beginning of the week. It went well. She has just been told that despite this, they need an EU citizen for the job. Before Brexit this would not have been a problem.



Same here. Lots of new contracts only open to EU Passport holders


----------



## andysays (Jun 17, 2021)

Supine said:


> Same here. Lots of new contracts only open to EU Passport holders


This is interesting.

A number of people I work with have relatively recently (say the last ten years) moved to the UK from EU countries and as far as I'm aware are still citizens of their country of origin. 

None of them have mentioned any issues or problems for them remaining in employment as a result of Brexit, and this includes at least one person who isn't directly employed but is working through an agency.

So I wonder whether it is now a legal requirement for either new or existing workers to be EU/UK citizens (depending on where they are), or whether the case dessiato describes is more down to a potential employer deciding it's too much trouble to go through whatever additional paperwork is required.

(not that it's much consolation for your missus either way, dess, and I hope she finds a way of resolving things)


----------



## Elpenor (Jun 17, 2021)

Someone Dutch on another forum I use reckoned they weren’t eligible to be a PCSO due to not being British.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 17, 2021)

Elpenor said:


> Someone Dutch on another forum I use reckoned they weren’t eligible to be a PCSO due to not being British.



Well that’s bollocks for a start; Are you eligible to be a PCSO?


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 17, 2021)

andysays said:


> This is interesting.
> 
> A number of people I work with have relatively recently (say the last ten years) moved to the UK from EU countries and as far as I'm aware are still citizens of their country of origin.
> 
> ...


Over here most jobs require residency , social security number and fiscal number . Three simple applications . 
Residency also allows to you work, or live in another EU country for 90 days .


----------



## Elpenor (Jun 17, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Well that’s bollocks for a start; Are you eligible to be a PCSO?


I thought so too!

Edit - Dutch cops


----------



## dessiato (Jun 17, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Over here most jobs require residency , social security number and fiscal number . Three simple applications .
> Residency also allows to you work, or live in another EU country for 90 days .


In my wife's case she has all of this, which it was such a blow to be turned down.


----------



## dessiato (Jun 17, 2021)

andysays said:


> This is interesting.
> 
> A number of people I work with have relatively recently (say the last ten years) moved to the UK from EU countries and as far as I'm aware are still citizens of their country of origin.
> 
> ...


The frustration is that we both have full permanent spanish residency including the right to work here. We have TIE, NIE, and SS, but...


----------



## andysays (Jun 17, 2021)

dessiato said:


> The frustration is that we both have full permanent spanish residency including the right to work here. We have TIE, NIE, and SS, but...


And this is why I'm wondering if it really is a legal requirement to be an EU citizen, or if it's simply a decision taken by someone in the company who your wife has applied to for a job.


----------



## Raheem (Jun 17, 2021)

Speculating, but could it be that there's a degree of certainty regarding the status of EU citizens because of the withdrawal agreement, but for the rest of the world who knows where we'll be in six months' time?


----------



## Gromit (Jun 18, 2021)

UK food and drink exports to the EU almost halve in first quarter
					

The pandemic and Brexit hit exports in the first three months of the year, says the Food and Drink Federation.



					www.bbc.co.uk
				




Thank you Brexit for keeping our goods out of the hands of those foreign devils who don’t deserve them.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jun 18, 2021)

The labour shortage is pretty funny tbf


----------



## two sheds (Jun 18, 2021)

HERSELF


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jun 18, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> The labour shortage is pretty funny tbf




It’s also an opportunity for unions to negotiate sectoral pay agreements that can begin to rebuild pay, terms and conditions in the most exploitative parts of the Labour market: care, hospitality, distribution, retail. Their inaction, possibly arising from their disorientated political  collapse into remain (in the main) or maybe just because their bloated and ageing bureaucracies are fucking useless, is pitiful.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jun 18, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> It’s also an opportunity for unions to negotiate sectoral pay agreements that can begin to rebuild pay, terms and conditions in the most exploitative parts of the Labour market: care, hospitality, distribution, retail. Their inaction, possibly arising from their disorientated political  collapse into remain (in the main) or maybe just because their bloated and ageing bureaucracies are fucking useless, is pitiful.



The collapse is mostly because they are pretty much appendixes these days with very little power or publicity and every possible mechanism has been used by the state to ensure they can't affect change.

The ones that are decent like the tube workers ones are routinely vilified.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jun 18, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> The collapse is mostly because they are pretty much appendixes these days with very little power or publicity and every possible mechanism has been used by the state to ensure they can't affect change.
> 
> The ones that are decent like the tube workers ones are routinely vilified.



Of course. So, the question is what is the movement going to do to address that. It’s not like those conditions are unique historically or spatially. If unions can’t or won’t organise in growing sectors of the economy, where there is a labour shortage, a growing recognition by workers of their bargaining power and employers desperate for labour then the problem is a more fundamental one than the usual excuse trotted out that ‘it’s all too hard’


----------



## Brainaddict (Jun 18, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Of course. So, the question is what is the movement going to do to address that. It’s not like those conditions are unique historically or spatially. If unions can’t or won’t organise in growing sectors of the economy, where there is a labour shortage, a growing recognition by workers of their bargaining power and employers desperate for labour then the problem is a more fundamental one than the usual excuse trotted out that ‘it’s all too hard’


I know I'm only saying things that people have said and thought a million times but doesn't make it less true: it was fatal for the unions to aggregate to the point of developing large bureaucracies. It is essentially _impossible _for them to take risks or even want significant change, no matter how much certain individuals in their ranks might want those things. And saying they are held back by the state regulation and laws that bind them etc has some truth to it, but also they don't even have to obey those laws - how did trade unionism start but in a constant state of illegality? And UVW or IWGB can move into a workplace and organise a strike within a week or two. The big unions will take ten years to change their behaviour in response to a labour shortage. I would suggest anyone who believes union organising can or should be radical should not waste their energy on the big unions.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jun 18, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Of course. So, the question is what is the movement going to do to address that. It’s not like those conditions are unique historically or spatially. If unions can’t or won’t organise in growing sectors of the economy, where there is a labour shortage, a growing recognition by workers of their bargaining power and employers desperate for labour then the problem is a more fundamental one than the usual excuse trotted out that ‘it’s all too hard’



The challenge is coping with the change in working life and culture - office workers namely. There needs to be more solidarity amongst a group of people who have a vast range of job descriptions all within the same building and the same company and whose jobs are often peak "compete or die"


----------



## nogojones (Jun 18, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> The labour shortage is pretty funny tbf



How awful for her. It must be so undignified


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 18, 2021)

Sasaferrato said:


> He was more motivated than me.


If you put the same effort into your posts he put into walking round his garden then urban would be a rather better place.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 18, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> It’s also an opportunity for unions to negotiate sectoral pay agreements that can begin to rebuild pay, terms and conditions in the most exploitative parts of the Labour market: care, hospitality, distribution, retail. Their inaction, possibly arising from their disorientated political  collapse into remain (in the main) or maybe just because their bloated and ageing bureaucracies are fucking useless, is pitiful.


I thought that you might number sex work in your list of the most exploitative parts of the labour market. Not to mention garment factories Exploited workers at UK garment factories 'robbed' of £27m since July and construction, recycling, nail bars and car washes Slaves working in UK construction and car washes, report finds


----------



## bimble (Jun 18, 2021)

Very misleading headline here, British pork is doing very well in China. Everything else looks fucked admittedly but China loves our pigs and thats what we should focus on.








						British food and drink exports to EU fall by £2bn in first quarter of 2021
					

Industry body says analysis of HMRC data shows structural rather than teething problems with Brexit




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Yossarian (Jun 18, 2021)

bimble said:


> Very misleading headline here, British pork is doing very well in China. Everything else looks fucked admittedly but China loves our pigs and thats what we should focus on.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Cue Boris Johnson dressing up as a pigherd and jabbering about Britain's eternal brotherhood with the Celestial Kingdom.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jun 18, 2021)

bimble said:


> Very misleading headline here, British pork is doing very well in China. Everything else looks fucked admittedly but China loves our pigs and thats what we should focus on.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## andysays (Jun 18, 2021)

Exporting pork to China is actually quite impressive, given that's where it originates.


----------



## gosub (Jun 18, 2021)

bimble said:


> Very misleading headline here, British pork is doing very well in China. Everything else looks fucked admittedly but China loves our pigs and thats what we should focus on.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think what is more misleading is not outlining the proportions of the sector. Scale in terms of employed and money involved, and as a proportion of economy and what % is for internal consumption and what is for export.  It isn't just the Food and Drink seem very up on PR, they are having a genuinely challenging time. But it needs better definition


----------



## bimble (Jun 18, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


>



That is actually her isn't it, not a comedy pisstake but our actual minister for international trade. what a world.


----------



## two sheds (Jun 18, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


>



It's the inane grin while waiting for applause that makes it


----------



## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Jun 18, 2021)

two sheds said:


> HERSELF


Obviously not horrendous, but it's probably not what she wants to be doing when she has all the other hotel shit to sort out. There are  probably other hotel jobs she has as to take on as well.  It's not the easy life she wants for herself. Her business model probably included low wages of young foreign staff who would work short term for the travel experience. 
The red tape they all wanted to remove was for workers rights and minimum wages. . . So fuck her. Just because you are allowed to treat people like shit doesn't mean the people will take it.


----------



## two sheds (Jun 18, 2021)

and the Mail is offended on her behalf at the menial nature of the work she's having to do.


----------



## bimble (Jun 18, 2021)

two sheds said:


> It's the inane grin while waiting for applause that makes it


Its like she thinks she's told a hilarious joke and is waiting for the audience to laugh. Very peculiar.


----------



## two sheds (Jun 18, 2021)

or the remote control circuits have stuck at 'grin and pause' until reactivated by the applause


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jun 18, 2021)

two sheds said:


> It's the inane grin while waiting for applause that makes it



Its absolutely perfect.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 18, 2021)

*UPDATE: Due to unexpected demand, space on the projection is now sold out! Thanks so much to everyone who has submitted their name.*


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jun 18, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> I thought that you might number sex work in your list of the most exploitative parts of the labour market. Not to mention garment factories Exploited workers at UK garment factories 'robbed' of £27m since July and construction, recycling, nail bars and car washes Slaves working in UK construction and car washes, report finds



Yeah, it wasn't meant to be an exhaustive list. I'm thinking here about an entire segment of the economy that post Covid and Brexit is becoming revalorized in terms of both the perception of its social worth and labour value. There is a massive opportunity for some kind of re-alignment to take place but, bar a few smaller unions like UVW, I do not sense the movement has seriously thought about or orientated towards.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Jun 19, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse TopCat . This hasn't been filled yet:









						Civil Service Jobs - Civil Service Jobs - GOV.UK
					

Search and apply for opportunities within the Civil Service.




					www.civilservicejobs.service.gov.uk


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 19, 2021)

sleaterkinney said:


> Bahnhof Strasse TopCat . This hasn't been filled yet:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Even for that job;


Nationality requirements​This job is broadly open to the following groups:

UK nationals
nationals of Commonwealth countries who have the right to work in the UK
nationals of the Republic of Ireland
nationals from the EU, EEA or Switzerland with (or eligible for) status under the European Union Settlement Scheme (EUSS)
relevant EU, EEA, Swiss or Turkish nationals working in the Civil Service
relevant EU, EEA, Swiss or Turkish nationals who have built up the right to work in the Civil Service
certain family members of the relevant EU, EEA, Swiss or Turkish nationals















So why are people in the EU only allowing EU citizens ton work there?


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Jun 19, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> So why are people in the EU only allowing EU citizens ton work there?



they are taking control of their borders?


----------



## Poot (Jun 19, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Even for that job;
> 
> 
> Nationality requirements​This job is broadly open to the following groups:
> ...


Because they can and it's less hassle than employing non EU ones?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 19, 2021)

Puddy_Tat said:


> they are taking control of their borders?



Exactly, racist scum.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 19, 2021)

Poot said:


> Because they can and it's less hassle than employing non EU ones?


What does the hassle entail ?


----------



## Poot (Jun 19, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> What does the hassle entail ?


Fuck knows. I'm not an EU national.


----------



## JimW (Jun 19, 2021)

andysays said:


> Exporting pork to China is actually quite impressive, given that's where it originates.


It's because they've banned a lot of domestic pig farming for environmental reasons and constant outbreaks of swine fever etc.


----------



## Supine (Jun 19, 2021)

They can’t find a U.K. based brexiteer who can do the job. Best to import one then


----------



## glitch hiker (Jun 19, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> View attachment 274052
> 
> *UPDATE: Due to unexpected demand, space on the projection is now sold out! Thanks so much to everyone who has submitted their name.*


Day of hope? June?

You'll confuse the covid deniers!


----------



## andysays (Jun 19, 2021)

sleaterkinney said:


> Bahnhof Strasse TopCat . This hasn't been filled yet:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Pretty sure neither Bahnhof Strasse and TopCat are currently seeking gainful employment.

There must be *someone* else you can suggest this to, someone who is looking for work ATM, maybe even as a direct result of Brexit, wo would benefit from this opportunity but for the life of me I can't think who...


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Jun 19, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


>



Imagine if cringing could cure covid 19. All the government would have to do is make everyone watch that at the exact same time and the pandemic would be over in an instant.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Jun 19, 2021)

andysays said:


> Pretty sure neither Bahnhof Strasse and TopCat are currently seeking gainful employment.
> 
> There must be *someone* else you can suggest this to, someone who is looking for work ATM, maybe even as a direct result of Brexit, wo would benefit from this opportunity but for the life of me I can't think who...


Corbyn is still an mp?.


----------



## andysays (Jun 19, 2021)

JimW said:


> It's because they've banned a lot of domestic pig farming for environmental reasons and constant outbreaks of swine fever etc.


I'm sure there are sensible reasons for this, I was just attempting to make a joke about the fact that eating pork originated in China when pigs were first domesticated there.


----------



## andysays (Jun 19, 2021)

sleaterkinney said:


> Corbyn is still an mp?.


I was trying to think of someone on Urban...


----------



## two sheds (Jun 19, 2021)

andysays said:


> I was trying to think of someone on Urban...


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 19, 2021)

andysays said:


> Pretty sure neither Bahnhof Strasse and TopCat are currently seeking gainful employment.
> 
> There must be *someone* else you can suggest this to, someone who is looking for work ATM, maybe even as a direct result of Brexit, wo would benefit from this opportunity but for the life of me I can't think who...


Sure we all know who


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 19, 2021)

andysays said:


> I'm sure there are sensible reasons for this, I was just attempting to make a joke about the fact that eating pork originated in China when pigs were first domesticated there.


I'm sure they ate wild boar before then


----------



## JimW (Jun 19, 2021)

andysays said:


> I'm sure there are sensible reasons for this, I was just attempting to make a joke about the fact that eating pork originated in China when pigs were first domesticated there.


There's a really nice pottery pigsty including porkers came out of some second century grave IIRC, grave goods used to include those sort of models.
ETA Found one: https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/44325


----------



## andysays (Jun 19, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> I'm sure they ate wild boar before then


I'm pretty sure they did too, but China is where the domestication of pigs for food first happened, which is what I was referring to

Is the meat from wild boar referred to as pork? I've never eaten it myself, but if pushed I would call it something other than pork, probably wild boar meat.


----------



## Gromit (Jun 19, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Even for that job;
> 
> 
> Nationality requirements​This job is broadly open to the following groups:
> ...





Poot said:


> Because they can and it's less hassle than employing non EU ones?


They’ll want someone who embodies their ideals or Community, Fair trade and free movement.

The British as a democratic whole embody xenophobia, self interest and closed borders.

They can’t say ‘No British’ without breaking their own discrimination standards but can say Europeans Only.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 19, 2021)

andysays said:


> I'm pretty sure they did too, but China is where the domestication of pigs for food first happened, which is what I was referring to
> 
> Is the meat from wild boar referred to as pork? I've never eaten it myself, but if pushed I would call it something other than pork, probably wild boar meat.


I don't think there's much substantive difference in the meats. But let's leave that and return to this job issue you raised


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 19, 2021)

Gromit said:


> They’ll want someone who embodies their ideals or Community, Fair trade and free movement.
> 
> The British as a democratic whole embody xenophobia, self interest and closed borders.
> 
> They can’t say ‘No British’ without breaking their own discrimination standards but can say Europeans Only.


Fuck off


----------



## Raheem (Jun 19, 2021)

So is it the case that, even though free movement has ended, the Brexit deal bans the UK from discriminating against EU citizens in job recruitment, but there's no reciprocal ban for the EU? Anyone know?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 19, 2021)

Raheem said:


> So is it the case that, even though free movement has ended, the Brexit deal bans the UK from discriminating against EU citizens in job recruitment, but there's no reciprocal ban for the EU? Anyone know?



Not sure on reciprocal arrangements, but contrary to rumours non U.K. citizens are still very welcome to come and work here if they have meaningful employment. Unlike the racist EU that fears outsiders.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 19, 2021)

Gromit said:


> The British as a democratic whole embody xenophobia, self interest and closed borders.
> 
> They can’t say ‘No British’ without breaking their own discrimination standards but can say Europeans Only.


If that’s what they are looking for , and I’ll bow down to your inside knowledge , wouldn’t it be easier for them to say that ?


----------



## Gromit (Jun 19, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Not sure on reciprocal arrangements, but contrary to rumours non U.K. citizens are still very welcome to come and work here if they have meaningful employment. Unlike the racist EU that fears outsiders.


I still think it’s just British they don’t want.


----------



## Gromit (Jun 19, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> If that’s what they are looking for , and I’ll bow down to your inside knowledge , wouldn’t it be easier for them to say that ?


It’s just a hypothesis based on the fact if I were them I wouldn’t want us either 😁


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 19, 2021)

Gromit said:


> I still think it’s just British they don’t want.



No, just you.


----------



## Raheem (Jun 19, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Not sure on reciprocal arrangements, but contrary to rumours non U.K. citizens are still very welcome to come and work here if they have meaningful employment. Unlike the racist EU that fears outsiders.


It's the individual member states, rather than the EU, that make rules about who not to let in/grant working rights to.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 19, 2021)

Raheem said:


> It's the individual member states, rather than the EU, that make rules about who not to let in/grant working rights to.



Yep, and many seem to share the same fear of others that the EU has.


----------



## Raheem (Jun 19, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Yep, and many seem to share the same fear of others that the EU has.


And which is just a non-factor in British politics. Tell me about it.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 19, 2021)

Raheem said:


> And which is just a non-factor in British politics. Tell me about it.



Who cares? All politicos are cunts, that is hardly news. That the hand wringing liberals who pledge their allegiance to the EU occasionally see that those they seek to worship are as big a cunts as our mob is hardly fucking news.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Jun 19, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Who cares? All politicos are cunts, that is hardly news. That the hand wringing liberals who pledge their allegiance to the EU occasionally see that those they seek to worship are as big a cunts as our mob is hardly fucking news.



but surely in a true cuntocracy there ought to be a free choice between these cunts, those cunts and those other cunts


----------



## andysays (Jun 19, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> I don't think there's much substantive difference in the meats. But let's leave that and return to this job issue you raised


Actually, I think there *is* a substantive difference in the meats, such that it would both look and taste quite different, but my original post was intended to be a quick throw-away reference to the pigs-to-China question, not to open up a whole new subject for endless debate, so yes, lets leave it in favour of more directly Brexit related matters


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 19, 2021)

Puddy_Tat said:


> but surely in a true cuntocracy there ought to be a free choice between these cunts, those cunts and those other cunts



We have had this choice for nearly 100 years now, fill your boots if you want to play along with their shite, in my lifetime there has only been one vote in which my choice actually counted, and those who voted the other way are still whining on endlessly about it five years later.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 19, 2021)

Puddy_Tat said:


> but surely in a true cuntocracy there ought to be a free choice between these cunts, those cunts and those other cunts


In the marketplace of cuntery, there's only one product for sale.


----------



## Raheem (Jun 19, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Who cares? All politicos are cunts, that is hardly news. That the hand wringing liberals who pledge their allegiance to the EU occasionally see that those they seek to worship are as big a cunts as our mob is hardly fucking news.


Well, that's all in the nature of deflection isn't it.

I'm still wondering whether it's true that the UK has negotiated a post-Brexit settlement where EU workers have greater protection in the UK than UK workers have in the EU, and very much doubt this has anything to do with the UK being less racist.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 19, 2021)

Raheem said:


> Well, that's all in the nature of deflection isn't it.
> 
> I'm still wondering whether it's true that the UK has negotiated a post-Brexit settlement where EU workers have greater protection in the UK than UK workers have in the EU, and very much doubt this has anything to do with the UK being less racist.



Why should EU workers have any more protection than workers who are not from the EU?


----------



## Raheem (Jun 19, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Why should EU workers have any more protection than workers who are not from the EU?


Indeed. My question is why have they (if they have)?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 19, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> We have had this choice for nearly 100 years now, fill your boots if you want to play along with their shite, in my lifetime there has only been one vote in which my choice actually counted, and those who voted the other way are still whining on endlessly about it five years later.


To be fair some who voted as you did have started whining about it


----------



## andysays (Jun 19, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> To be fair some who voted as you did have started whining about it


Started? Some of them have never fucking stopped.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 19, 2021)

andysays said:


> Started? Some of them have never fucking stopped.


We have a whine lake when we want a wine lake


----------



## andysays (Jun 19, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> We have a whine lake when we want a wine lake


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 19, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> To be fair some who voted as you did have started whining about it



There are whinging pricks on all sides.


----------



## gosub (Jun 20, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Who cares? All politicos are cunts, that is hardly news. That the hand wringing liberals who pledge their allegiance to the EU occasionally see that those they seek to worship are as big a cunts as our mob is hardly fucking news.


I don't know. John Bercow supports Labour made the news today


----------



## bemused (Jun 20, 2021)

gosub said:


> I don't know. John Bercow supports Labour made the news today


Just what Labour needs another sexist bully.


----------



## Raheem (Jun 20, 2021)

bemused said:


> Just what Labour needs another sexist bully.


Tories have 364 and they're 11 points ahead.


----------



## steveo87 (Jun 22, 2021)

Michelin-star restaurant stops serving lunch due to lack of staff
					

The founder of a Michelin-star restaurant says he had to reduce opening hours to manage shortages.



					www.bbc.co.uk
				




All those foreigners have left the hospitality industry due to Covid 19.
Not Brexit.

I repeat,  Covid 19 NOT Brexit.


----------



## Badgers (Jun 22, 2021)

Food waste and food shortages likely to be increasing more by the look of things. Not to any kind of empty shelves and queues level but choice and freshness of a lot of products will decline.

Nothing to worry about, just things a bit more precarious and disappointing to see.

Onwards and upwards eh...


----------



## brogdale (Jun 22, 2021)

steveo87 said:


> Michelin-star restaurant stops serving lunch due to lack of staff
> 
> 
> The founder of a Michelin-star restaurant says he had to reduce opening hours to manage shortages.
> ...


If the wages offered by a business are too low to attract workers, they don't have a business.


----------



## Supine (Jun 22, 2021)

Restaurants here are really struggling because so many European staff have gone home. Not covid related.

Was speaking to a pub manager recently who is absolutely gutted. He can’t get enough staff to run the bar and serve people outside. And obviously most people want to be outside at the moment.


----------



## Badgers (Jun 22, 2021)

Our regular reminder  



> "There is a risk that leaving the EU will be globally interpreted as a narrow, xenophobic, backward-looking thing to do.”
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Flavour (Jun 22, 2021)

Supine said:


> Restaurants here are really struggling because so many European staff have gone home. Not covid related.
> 
> Was speaking to a pub manager recently who is absolutely gutted. He can’t get enough staff to run the bar and serve people outside. And obviously most people want to be outside at the moment.


Restaurants across Europe also struggling to hire staff.


----------



## Supine (Jun 22, 2021)

Flavour said:


> Restaurants across Europe also struggling to hire staff.



Maybe but almost all were European here. Rightly or wrongly the trade is current struggling due to Brexit and the fact that young people don’t live around here means they are not easily replaced.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 22, 2021)

Flavour said:


> Restaurants across Europe also struggling to hire staff.


Do you have a link?


----------



## Raheem (Jun 22, 2021)

Supine said:


> Restaurants here are really struggling because so many European staff have gone home. Not covid related.
> 
> Was speaking to a pub manager recently who is absolutely gutted. He can’t get enough staff to run the bar and serve people outside. And obviously most people want to be outside at the moment.


Outside service does make it sound at least a bit covid-related.


----------



## Flavour (Jun 22, 2021)

I think the fact that these issues finding hospitality staff are being seen both in Europe and the US (where it's blamed on stimulus checks) means it's not actually just a Brexit issue, though it definitely contributes.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 22, 2021)

Flavour said:


> I think the fact that these issues finding hospitality staff are being seen both in Europe and the US (where it's blamed on stimulus checks) means it's not actually just a Brexit issue, though it definitely contributes.


If, as you say, Brexit "definitely contributes" to labour supply issues for capital, that surely makes it "a Brexit issue", no?


----------



## Flavour (Jun 22, 2021)

But not purely a brexit, nor even necessarily a Covid issue. Easy to blame brexit for complex phenomena but useful to point out they are not unique to the UK


----------



## grit (Jun 22, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Do you have a link?


This has been a serious issue in Ireland as well. In the US, April (the latest data) had the highest number of resignations across the labor force for the past 20 years. However this is obviously not specific to hospitality.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 22, 2021)

Flavour said:


> But not purely a brexit, nor even necessarily a Covid issue. Easy to blame brexit for complex phenomena but useful to point out they are not unique to the UK


A reasonable position, but one somewhat undermined by pro-Brexit claims that labour pool reductions resulting from the UK's withdrawal from the supra-state have led to rising wages.


----------



## Flavour (Jun 22, 2021)

Are restaurant worker wages rising in the UK? There doesn't seem to be the same battle over them (at least not in the media I read) as in the US, where there's been a fairly successful push across the sector for $15 / hour minimum wage


----------



## brogdale (Jun 22, 2021)

Flavour said:


> Are restaurant worker wages rising in the UK? There doesn't seem to be the same battle over them (at least not in the media I read) as in the US, where there's been a fairly successful push across the sector for $15 / hour minimum wage


Maybe some of the pro-Brexit posters here could confirm?


----------



## editor (Jun 22, 2021)

Flavour said:


> Are restaurant worker wages rising in the UK? There doesn't seem to be the same battle over them (at least not in the media I read) as in the US, where there's been a fairly successful push across the sector for $15 / hour minimum wage


A couple of  pubs near me are being forced to offer more because of the shortage of workers, but most I know are still offering shit wages, often on zero hours.

I imagine Brexit will be playing a part in those shortages seeing as most pubs in London used to be heavily staffed by foreign workers.

But as one hand giveth the other taketh away: I know several pubs who are now employing 16/17 year olds instead.

 I see no evidence of a general rise in wages in the hospitality trade.


----------



## discokermit (Jun 22, 2021)

maybe the restaurant worker have found better jobs where they dont have to bow and scrape for tips serving arseholes and get more money.


----------



## Loose meat (Jun 22, 2021)

If they're still prepared to work unsocial hours and are able-bodied, there is decent money to be made on the self-employed apps like Deliveroo- very low barriers to entry, as well. Big shift during lockdown to this as a desirable option


----------



## MrSki (Jun 22, 2021)

Don't know if anyone else has noticed this but I went to Sainsburys on Sunday & wanted some Petit Poir. None No frozen peas at all. 
Got some today so am relieved but would have thought most peas in this country (regardless on their foreign sounding name) are grown in the UK. 
Might just have been a local rush on peas but worth stocking up.


----------



## mojo pixy (Jun 22, 2021)

Tons of vacancies doing care work too. Covid jabs guaranteed.


----------



## Badgers (Jun 23, 2021)




----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 23, 2021)

How do you know if you've been sat next to a remainer on your flight?























The aircraft reaches the gate, the engines turn off, but the whining carries on.


----------



## editor (Jun 23, 2021)

Oh, I can do the cheap shot jokes too!

How do you know if you've been sat next to a leaver on your flight?

They insist that everything is going fantastically well as the engines burst into flames and the the plane catastrophically plunges to the ground. Oh, and something about blue passports and xenophobia.


----------



## Spymaster (Jun 23, 2021)

I met a remoaner in the pub the other day. I told him that I have a friend who studies him. 

Remoaner: "Oh really? Is he a europhile?"
Me: "No. He's a gynaecologist"


----------



## brogdale (Jun 23, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> I met a remoaner in the pub the other day. I told him that I have a friend who studies him.
> 
> Remoaner: "Oh really? Is he a europhile?"
> Me: "No. He's a gynaecologist"


Psephologist or Sociologist, surely?
Why would the academic need to hold any particular view (phile or phobe)?
Ruins the attempt at humour.


----------



## NoXion (Jun 23, 2021)

steveo87 said:


> Michelin-star restaurant stops serving lunch due to lack of staff
> 
> 
> The founder of a Michelin-star restaurant says he had to reduce opening hours to manage shortages.
> ...



My heart truly bleeds for those business owners who can no longer exploit transient labour as much as they used to.

Oh wait, no it doesn't.


----------



## Lucy Fur (Jun 23, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> How do you know if you've been sat next to a remainer on your flight?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm surprised you have the time to pen such sophisticated intellectually challenging satire. I'd of thought you'd be far to busy revelling in your newly sunny uplands, counting your new trade deals, pondering how best to spend all that extra money the NHS has, considering the many great opportunities the next generation are going to have, enjoying the security of finally getting our borders back, the thrill of getting to make our own laws and cracking one of at the thought of our sovereignty.


----------



## Spymaster (Jun 23, 2021)

Lucy Fur said:


> I'd of thought ...



HAVE


----------



## Lucy Fur (Jun 23, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> HAVE


There you go, see, you can make constructive criticism. Well done.


----------



## editor (Jun 23, 2021)

Lucy Fur said:


> I'm surprised you have the time to pen such sophisticated intellectually challenging satire. I'd of thought you'd be far to busy revelling in your newly sunny uplands, counting your new trade deals, pondering how best to spend all that extra money the NHS has, considering the many great opportunities the next generation are going to have, enjoying the security of finally getting our borders back, the thrill of getting to make our own laws and cracking one of at the thought of our sovereignty.


Yes, it's all going brilliantly. 









						UK stars call on government to act over post-Brexit touring
					

Artists such as Radiohead and Biffy Clyro back a campaign asking for a financial support package.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## Spymaster (Jun 23, 2021)

How many remoaners does it take to change a lightbulb?






"CHANGE!!!!"


----------



## Lucy Fur (Jun 23, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> How many remoaners does it take to change a lightbulb?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


And you clearly have been to busy to come up with a funny.


----------



## Spymaster (Jun 23, 2021)

Lucy Fur said:


> And you clearly have been to busy to come up with a funny.



Something about remoaner's sense of humour ... but it's not about _funnies_, silly.


----------



## Yossarian (Jun 23, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> How do you know if you've been sat next to a remainer on your flight?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



How do you know when the pilot's a Brexiteer?

"Th-th-there's n-n-n-no t-t-t-turbulence t-t-t-today."


----------



## Supine (Jun 23, 2021)

Indy is reporting the return of mobile phone roaming charges from august. Yay!


----------



## 2hats (Jun 23, 2021)

Supine said:


> Indy is reporting the return of mobile phone roaming charges from august. Yay!


O2 charges over a roaming limit of 25GB.








						Roaming charges to return for travellers to EU in Brexit blow, leading operator announces
					

Embarrassment as move announced on referendum anniversary – after trade deal created risk of fees




					www.independent.co.uk


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jun 23, 2021)

To be fair, that is meaningless - they already limit you for "long term use", and who is going to use over 25 gigs on a short trip? Well some people might but maybe get a local SIM? It's not a real difference.


----------



## Raheem (Jun 23, 2021)

As soon as the Europeans start to realise there's no holidaying Brits on Tinder anymore, a U-turn will be inevitable. They'll be hammering on Angela Merkel's door.


----------



## gosub (Jun 23, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> How do you know when the pilot's a Brexiteer?
> 
> "Th-th-there's n-n-n-no t-t-t-turbulence t-t-t-today."


Remain.  Home of the boat happy.


----------



## MrSki (Jun 23, 2021)




----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 23, 2021)

That's crap.


----------



## Raheem (Jun 23, 2021)

And on a thread where such high standards have been established too.


----------



## Lucy Fur (Jun 23, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> That's crap.


Do love a crêpe


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jun 24, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> I met a remoaner in the pub the other day. I told him that I have a friend who studies him.
> 
> Remoaner: "Oh really? Is he a europhile?"
> Me: "No. He's a gynaecologist"



Ha it's funny because it compares remainers to ladies private parts ha! I get it, you done a funny!

Those long winter evenings must just fly by at yours


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Jun 24, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> That's crap.


But accurate.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 24, 2021)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> But accurate.




What as in Brexiteers have a sense of humour and remainers don't? I think the past 24 hours have borne that out, yes.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 24, 2021)

Lucy Fur said:


> Do love a crêpe




With Nutella they are lovey, but crêpe paper is crap.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Jun 24, 2021)

Still gotta love the endless bickering over how people voted in a one-question referendum five years ago and seemingly ignoring the decisions of the politicians in charge of the process after two general elections. Really productive.


----------



## andysays (Jun 24, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> What as in Brexiteers have a sense of humour and remainers don't? I think the past 24 hours have borne that out, yes.


TBH, I think this latest display of tit for tat jokes had taken this already shit thread to a new low.

That goes for both "sides".


----------



## brogdale (Jun 24, 2021)

S☼I said:


> Still gotta love the endless bickering over how people voted in a one-question referendum five years ago and seemingly ignoring the decisions of the politicians in charge of the process after two general elections. Really productive.


But all the while significant numbers of voters ( & therefore posters here) self-describe on the basis of how they voted in that one-question referendum...isn’t such bickering inevitable?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 24, 2021)

andysays said:


> TBH, I think this latest display of tit for tat jokes had taken this already shit thread to a new low.
> 
> That goes for both "sides".



Well, what else is there? Once you get to the point that Radiohead is asking for a bailout there’s not really anywhere else to go, the shark has been jumped.


----------



## bimble (Jun 24, 2021)

andysays said:


> TBH, I think this latest display of tit for tat jokes had taken this already shit thread to a new low.
> 
> That goes for both "sides".


Agree, maybe a peak of shitness has been reached, lethargic attack via really unfunny jokes its like the house of commons in here.


----------



## andysays (Jun 24, 2021)

bimble said:


> Agree, maybe a peak of shitness has been reached, lethargic attack via really unfunny jokes its like the house of commons in here.


I believe the word is "nadir".


----------



## bimble (Jun 24, 2021)

a trough of shitness.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jun 24, 2021)

95 pages back I said

#53
Are we really going the road of the P&P section become clogged by spam? This thread adds fuck all, everyone knows it adds fuck all and that every word on it is already covered by other threads.

Despite that, even I’ve been surprised at the sheer level of detritus and garbage accumulated, and new posts on Brexit essentially seeking to rerun the same arguments are still being started….


----------



## Steel Icarus (Jun 24, 2021)

brogdale said:


> But all the while significant numbers of voters ( & therefore posters here) self-describe on the basis of how they voted in that one-question referendum...isn’t such bickering inevitable?


Well, exactly


----------



## Yossarian (Jun 24, 2021)

Give it another 5 years of Brexiting, this is probably going to seem like the Athenian Agora in comparison.


----------



## NoXion (Jun 24, 2021)

editor said:


> Yes, it's all going brilliantly.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Well, what else is there? Once you get to the point that Radiohead is asking for a bailout there’s not really anywhere else to go, the shark has been jumped.



Imagine sincerely believing that Radiohead are "too big to fail"! 🤣


----------



## Steel Icarus (Jun 24, 2021)

Imagine owning both $45 million and a begging bowl


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 24, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> How do you know when the pilot's a Brexiteer?
> 
> "Th-th-there's n-n-n-no t-t-t-turbulence t-t-t-today."


Sounds like Michael Palin's character out of fish called wanda


----------



## Yossarian (Jun 24, 2021)

Radiohead bassist Colin Greenwood seems more concerned about the situation for young bands and UK-based crew members than about his own band. He also makes me wish I'd spent the early '90s touring Europe with a small indie band. 









						European touring made Radiohead what we are. Brexit must not destroy it | Colin Greenwood
					

Unless our government acts, the red tape and costs of touring Europe will kill off careers and diminish our national culture




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## ruffneck23 (Jun 24, 2021)




----------



## Artaxerxes (Jun 24, 2021)

ruffneck23 said:


>




Its plenty as long as your not constantly fucking about on Twatter and Instagram every day for 2 weeks and actually enjoying your holiday. Or doing the dreading video call while walking down the street.

Expect other networks to fragment this and fuck around with the limits and charges.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 24, 2021)

ruffneck23 said:


>



Sure most people supplement their data allowance with WiFi


----------



## Elpenor (Jun 24, 2021)

ruffneck23 said:


>




Not everyone goes on holiday and spends their entire time moaning about Brexit on social media


----------



## ruffneck23 (Jun 24, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Its plenty as long as your not constantly fucking about on Twatter and Instagram every day for 2 weeks and actually enjoying your holiday. Or doing the dreading video call while walking down the street.
> 
> Expect other networks to fragment this and fuck around with the limits and charges.


I didnt think 25gb was too bad tbh, but just wanted to update the thread, perhaps its the wrong thread.

But then again im 50 and dont spend all the time on my phone (ok i admit spending most of my time at the moment posting on here, via my pc but that's only cos im bedridden at the moment )


----------



## ruffneck23 (Jun 24, 2021)

Elpenor said:


> Not everyone goes on holiday and spends their entire time moaning about Brexit on social media


That was my first post on this thread so please dont paint / tar ?? me with that brush 

This is obviously the third


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Jun 24, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> What as in Brexiteers have a sense of humour and remainers don't? I think the past 24 hours have borne that out, yes.


I was thinking more that while there’s clowns on both sides, only one of them has punched themselves in the face with something messy.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 24, 2021)

Elpenor said:


> Not everyone goes on holiday and spends their entire time moaning about Brexit on social media


It may come as a surprise but several countries in the EU now have wifi .


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 24, 2021)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> I was thinking more that while there’s clowns on both sides, only one of them has punched themselves in the face with something messy.



That is exactly what clowns are supposed to do though, which is why the thing doesn't work.


----------



## Flavour (Jun 24, 2021)

FWIW you don't normally get to carry all your data plan over into other EU countries anyway. On my Italian SIM I have 100Gb a month but I am only allowed to use 4Gb per month in other EU countries.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jun 24, 2021)

ruffneck23 said:


> I didnt think 25gb was too bad tbh, but just wanted to update the thread, perhaps its the wrong thread.
> 
> But then again im 50 and dont spend all the time on my phone (ok i admit spending most of my time at the moment posting on here, via my pc but that's only cos im bedridden at the moment )



Not a dig at you, the tweet was a bit hysterical is all. I spend about a tenner to get a couple of gig and thats plenty, if I do insta or stream videos then wifi exists.


----------



## ruffneck23 (Jun 24, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Not a dig at you, the tweet was a bit hysterical is all. I spend about a tenner to get a couple of gig and thats plenty, if I do insta or stream videos then wifi exists.


it's cool  , im with EE PAYG and spend £20 and get 80gb , maybe look into that


----------



## Elpenor (Jun 24, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> It may come as a surprise but several countries in the EU now have wifi .


Good news for anyone touring Europe


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jun 24, 2021)

ruffneck23 said:


> it's cool  , im with EE PAYG and spend £20 and get 80gb , maybe look into that



I'm on giffgaff payg, I was doing 7 quid because I really don't use 3g that much but now I'm doing more stuff that uses strava thats gone up a bit. Tenner is plenty for me.


----------



## editor (Jun 24, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Well, what else is there? Once you get to the point that Radiohead is asking for a bailout there’s not really anywhere else to go, the shark has been jumped.


I see it's time to belittle the musicians again. Sigh.


----------



## editor (Jun 24, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> It may come as a surprise but several countries in the EU now have wifi .


Yet it's still perfectly possible to regularly find yourself in hotels and areas with no wi-fi, or wi-fi you have to pay for at daft rates.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 24, 2021)

Flavour said:


> FWIW you don't normally get to carry all your data plan over into other EU countries anyway. On my Italian SIM I have 100Gb a month but I am only allowed to use 4Gb per month in other EU countries.


I used ny Portuguese sim in the UK and got charged for sending a photo on a message


----------



## 2hats (Jun 24, 2021)

Surprise.








						EE to reintroduce Europe roaming charges in January
					

The mobile operator EE is to charge new UK customers to use their phones in Europe.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## gosub (Jun 24, 2021)

Elpenor said:


> Not everyone goes on holiday and spends their entire time moaning about Brexit on social media


At least thems that do are going to be taxed after the first 25GB


----------



## Raheem (Jun 24, 2021)

2hats said:


> Surprise.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Says in this article that what O2 are doing with the 25gb thing is not actually roaming charges and would have been allowed pre-brexit.


----------



## Chz (Jun 24, 2021)

Raheem said:


> Says in this article that what O2 are doing with the 25gb thing is not actually roaming charges and would have been allowed pre-brexit.


Yes, and I wasn't too worried about it. As many have said, 25GB is quite a lot. I don't think I've ever used more than 6 in a month.

EE, however, are taking the piss. They're wagering that all the other networks will do the same. Which means that they probably will.


----------



## Raheem (Jun 24, 2021)

Chz said:


> Yes, and I wasn't too worried about it. As many have said, 25GB is quite a lot. I don't think I've ever used more than 6 in a month.
> 
> EE, however, are taking the piss. They're wagering that all the other networks will do the same. Which means that they probably will.


Wonder if EE might have had a hand in the seemingly misleading news about O2 yesterday.


----------



## bemused (Jun 24, 2021)

...


----------



## bemused (Jun 24, 2021)

Chz said:


> EE, however, are taking the piss. They're wagering that all the other networks will do the same. Which means that they probably will.


They'll all do it.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jun 24, 2021)

2hats said:


> Surprise.
> 
> 
> 
> ...






> In January 2021, EE, O2, Three and Vodafone all stated they had no plans to reintroduce roaming charges, despite Brexit giving them the option to do so.



Gosh, more lies.


----------



## andysays (Jun 24, 2021)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> I was thinking more that while there’s clowns on both sides, only one of them has punched themselves in the face with something messy.


Everyone knows you never get clowns on both sides


----------



## editor (Jun 24, 2021)

Oh dear:



> Yet barely a day goes by without further proofs of Brexit’s damage, some of it now forcing its way into the Tory press. This week, pigeon fanciers are barred from having their birds participate in cross-Channel races by new rules. Less niche is the alarming 17% rise in food prices: Ian Wright, of the Food and Drink Federation, tells me Brexit costs and obstructions have sent commodity prices soaring, and those are now working their way on to the shelves. The unexpected £2bn fall in UK food and drink exports to the EU in just the first quarter of this year is, Wright tells me, “no teething problem, but very real and sustained. Smaller firms have stopped exporting”, overwhelmed by the new obstacles. The government may turn a permanent blind eye to import checks starting next week: “But that soon gets dangerous. When no one checks, who knows if imported food is what it says on the tin, and not, say, horse meat?”











						Five years on, we finally know what Brexit means: a worse deal for everyone | Polly Toynbee
					

On trade, finance, migration, food standards and more, the UK suffers fresh ignominy on a daily basis, says Guardian columnist Polly Toynbee




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## editor (Jun 24, 2021)

Here's how Britain's most pro Brexit town is shaping up 









						Brexit: Views from Boston, Britain's most Eurosceptic town
					

Five years after the EU referendum, people in Britain's "Leave" capital give their views on Brexit.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## cybershot (Jun 24, 2021)

Thanks brexiteers. It would cost me more to use my phone for a week in Europe than it does a month in UK (should I switch to a sim only EE contract) EE to reintroduce Europe roaming charges in January


----------



## editor (Jun 24, 2021)

And another 



> A collapse in British exports to the Irish Republic since Brexit has handed Dublin an extraordinary trade surplus with London, according to new figures.
> 
> The Irish government says new trading red tape explains the plunge in the value of goods sales – 47.6 per cent in the first quarter of this year – compared with the start of 2020. It suggests companies in the Republic have switched from buying products directly from EU countries, rather than from across the Irish Sea.











						EE confirms roaming charges in Europe – follow Brexit
					

Follow the action as it happened




					www.independent.co.uk


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 24, 2021)

cybershot said:


> Thanks brexiteers. It would cost me more to use my phone for a week in Europe than it does a month in UK (should I switch to a sim only EE contract) EE to reintroduce Europe roaming charges in January


They have  WiFi believe it or not


----------



## Supine (Jun 24, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> They have  WiFi believe it or not



everywhere? that would be cool.


----------



## editor (Jun 24, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> They have  WiFi believe it or not


Loads of places don't and a lot of places charge for using their wi-fi or only give you an hour free. 

I regularly found myself burning through quite a chunk of my data allowance when I was playing around Europe.


----------



## cybershot (Jun 24, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> They have  WiFi believe it or not



it’s usually that bad it’s unusable


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 24, 2021)

cybershot said:


> it’s usually that bad it’s unusable


British WiFi is best obviously


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 24, 2021)

editor said:


> Loads of places don't and a lot of places charge for using their wi-fi or only give you an hour free.
> 
> I regularly found myself burning through quite a chunk of my data allowance when I was playing around Europe.


Not my experience here or in Spain , bars and cafes full of people using WiFi .


----------



## NoXion (Jun 25, 2021)

Oh no. One provider is introducing roaming charges, giving customers a reason to switch to a rival who hasn't done that. It's hardly the apocalypse, is it?


----------



## Steel Icarus (Jun 25, 2021)

S☼I said:


> Still gotta love the endless bickering over how people voted in a one-question referendum five years ago and seemingly ignoring the decisions of the politicians in charge of the process after two general elections. Really productive.





cybershot said:


> Thanks brexiteers. It would cost me more to use my phone for a week in Europe than it does a month in UK (should I switch to a sim only EE contract) EE to reintroduce Europe roaming charges in January


Lol


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 25, 2021)

NoXion said:


> Oh no. One provider is introducing roaming charges, giving customers a reason to switch to a rival who hasn't done that. It's hardly the apocalypse, is it?



Too much reliance on mobiles anyway


----------



## Supine (Jun 25, 2021)

NoXion said:


> Oh no. One provider is introducing roaming charges, giving customers a reason to switch to a rival who hasn't done that. It's hardly the apocalypse, is it?



It’s the direction of travel that’s a concern


----------



## cybershot (Jun 25, 2021)

NoXion said:


> Oh no. One provider is introducing roaming charges, giving customers a reason to switch to a rival who hasn't done that. It's hardly the apocalypse, is it?



They will all follow suit.


----------



## gosub (Jun 25, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> Too much reliance on mobiles anyway


Homing pigeon network sounds like its having some issues too


----------



## MrSki (Jun 26, 2021)




----------



## The39thStep (Jun 26, 2021)

Oh dear 









						Workers on the march
					

Labour may be gaining ground on capital




					www.economist.com


----------



## teqniq (Jun 26, 2021)

This is an absolute quality troll (thread):


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jun 26, 2021)

teqniq said:


> This is an absolute quality troll (thread):




Ugh, guys a fantasist loon.


----------



## teqniq (Jun 26, 2021)

Whether it's made up or not, it made me laugh. Just had a look at his timeline, doesn't seem like much of a fantasist to me.


----------



## MrSki (Jun 27, 2021)

Not good.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 27, 2021)

MrSki said:


> Not good.



Ah Nick Lowles the anti Corbyn man


----------



## MrSki (Jun 27, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Ah Nick Lowles the anti Corbyn man


The actual article is by Ben Chu.


----------



## gosub (Jun 27, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Ugh, guys a fantasist loon.


Agree. On phone to MP... Not likely


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 27, 2021)

MrSki said:


> The actual article is by Ben Chu.


Yes you posted a retweet by Lowles who is a notorious anti Corbynite and has had a long history of conspiring to sabotage the left in the Labour Party


----------



## MrSki (Jun 27, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Yes you posted a retweet by Lowles who is a notorious anti Corbynite and has had a long history of conspiring to sabotage the left in the Labour Party


Sorry for that. Should have just linked to the article but was not aware of who Lowles is.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 27, 2021)

gosub said:


> Agree. On phone to MP... Not likely


Reminds me of those coked up giro gangster types you’d occasionally have a row with in a pub  in the 1990s 
 ‘ one phone call mate and there will be five lads from Salford in here ‘.
 I’m thinking what sort of muppets wait around all day waiting for him to give them a ring and leap into action ?


----------



## Loose meat (Jun 27, 2021)

MrSki said:


> Not good.




Welcome everyone to year 6 of Project Fail, sorry Project Fear!!

Kind of weird the currency is close to it's highest since the Referendum, despite the pandemic unemployment is almost back to 2019 levels, the £20 uni credit uplift is still in place, the NHS has a guaranteed 3.7% above inflation for 5 years (now in year 3) and frankly, the Tories will smash Starmer by, hopefully, not much more tan 4K or so at Batley.

It's terrible, eveything is terrible. Everyone is either a racist or drowning in the English Channel. Save us Europe!


----------



## Ax^ (Jun 27, 2021)

Meat you should really read the place a bit more


Plenty of lefties who voted for Brexit in this thread

nice to see you go over being cancelled from the GB News Thread 


HTH


----------



## Loose meat (Jun 27, 2021)

Maybe focus on the twitter post. 

FO.


----------



## Ax^ (Jun 27, 2021)

the twitter post has been explained by smarter people than you

so FO!


----------



## MrSki (Jun 27, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> Maybe focus on the twitter post.





Loose meat said:


> FO.


So 800 million a week worse off & all is sunny in the uplands?

NHS staff taking an inflation hit pay cut after what they have done over the last 15 months? Shortage of materials in the building industry? 

Is the fishing industry happy or the farmers? All well in NI? Shortage of fruit pickers & HGV drivers? 
What is better for you then?


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jun 27, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> Welcome everyone to year 6 of Project Fail, sorry Project Fear!!
> 
> Kind of weird the currency is close to it's highest since the Referendum, despite the pandemic unemployment is almost back to 2019 levels, the £20 uni credit uplift is still in place, the NHS has a guaranteed 3.7% above inflation for 5 years (now in year 3) and frankly, the Tories will smash Starmer by, hopefully, not much more tan 4K or so at Batley.
> 
> It's terrible, eveything is terrible. Everyone is either a racist or drowning in the English Channel. Save us Europe!


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 27, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> Welcome everyone to year 6 of Project Fail, sorry Project Fear!!
> 
> Kind of weird the currency is close to it's highest since the Referendum, despite the pandemic unemployment is almost back to 2019 levels, the £20 uni credit uplift is still in place, the NHS has a guaranteed 3.7% above inflation for 5 years (now in year 3) and frankly, the Tories will smash Starmer by, hopefully, not much more tan 4K or so at Batley.
> 
> It's terrible, eveything is terrible. Everyone is either a racist or drowning in the English Channel. Save us Europe!


You big dope


----------



## brogdale (Jun 27, 2021)

Thought that cunt had been banned, or am I mixing up the recent troll(s)?


----------



## MrSki (Jun 27, 2021)




----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 27, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Thought that cunt had been banned, or am I mixing up the recent troll(s)?


Got booted off one thread, soon to be banned, reckon


----------



## glitch hiker (Jun 27, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> Welcome everyone to year 6 of Project Fail, sorry Project Fear!!
> 
> Kind of weird the currency is close to it's highest since the Referendum, despite the pandemic unemployment is almost back to 2019 levels, the £20 uni credit uplift is still in place, the NHS has a guaranteed 3.7% above inflation for 5 years (now in year 3) and frankly, the Tories will smash Starmer by, hopefully, not much more tan 4K or so at Batley.
> 
> It's terrible, eveything is terrible. Everyone is either a racist or drowning in the English Channel. Save us Europe!


furlough has yet to end.

the uplift has yet to end, although for legacy claimants it never started, but they've been shat on for years and completely ignored by your messiah

Tories probably will smash Starmer, that's not proof of anything other than how right wing society has become and how ineffectual he is.

Not really sure where you're going with any of this. It's not project fear if it's reality, it's just reality


----------



## Ax^ (Jun 27, 2021)

Cancelled by the powerful satan worshiping leftish cabal of elites that run this place

is how loose meat likes to see it


----------



## glitch hiker (Jun 27, 2021)

MrSki said:


> So 800 million a week worse off & all is sunny in the uplands?
> 
> NHS staff taking an inflation hit pay cut after what they have done over the last 15 months? Shortage of materials in the building industry?
> 
> ...


shortage of food thanks to failing supply chains


----------



## hippogriff (Jun 27, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> Got booted off one thread, soon to be banned, reckon


We live in hope


----------



## MrSki (Jun 28, 2021)




----------



## Loose meat (Jun 28, 2021)

LOL. The apex of middle-class concerns right there. Roaming charges and pet passports. Tell me it's a parody.


----------



## bimble (Jun 28, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> LOL. The apex of middle-class concerns right there. Roaming charges and pet passports. Tell me it's a parody.


You've got absolutely no idea what the apex of middle class concerns are. Me for instance, I don't care about those things, I can afford to pay for sim cards when on my luxurious holidays. My main concern currently is that there seems to be an alarming issue with the Burrata supply chain.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 28, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> LOL. The apex of middle-class concerns right there. Roaming charges and pet passports. Tell me it's a parody.



Loose meat is a parody


----------



## MrSki (Jun 28, 2021)

So are food shortages a middle class concern or will it impact on the poorest when prices rise because of shortages?


> The country is facing a summer of food shortages likened to a series of “rolling power cuts” because of a loss of 100,000 lorry drivers due to Covid and Brexit, industry chiefs have warned.
> 
> In a letter to Boris Johnson they have called for an urgent intervention to allow eastern European drivers back into the country on special visas, similar to those issued to farm pickers, warning that there is a “crisis” in the supply chain.











						UK facing summer of food shortages due to lack of lorry drivers
					

Loss of 100,000 hauliers due to Covid and Brexit will cause food ‘rolling power cuts’, experts warn




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Loose meat (Jun 28, 2021)

The Guardian representing owners as ever.

HGV/lorry driving was the worst hit of skilled jobs by SE EU influx, we now see the scale of the influx. HGV jobs quickly gaining £5,000 pa now, returning to pre-2010 levels.

Pro-Remain Migratory Observatory reporting te ONS saying it under-reported by 2 million economic migrants in 9 years:





__





						EU made up much higher share of net migration after 2010 than official figures suggested  - Migration Observatory
					






					migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk


----------



## MrSki (Jun 28, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> The Guardian representing owners as ever.
> 
> HGV/lorry driving was the worst hit of skilled jobs by SE EU influx, we now see the scale of the influx. HGV jobs quickly gaining £5,000 pa now, returning to pre-2010 levels.
> 
> ...


That is great for HGV drivers but might be a problem for others when there are food shortages.


----------



## Raheem (Jun 28, 2021)

bimble said:


> My main concern currently is that there seems to be an alarming issue with the Burrata supply chain.


Bye bye, burrata barata.


----------



## Loose meat (Jun 28, 2021)

MrSki said:


> That is great for HGV drivers but might be a problem for others when there are food shortages.



Yes. It's great for low paid workers. The end.


----------



## BillRiver (Jun 28, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> Yes. It's great for low paid workers. The end.



Unless they want to buy food.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 28, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> Yes. It's great for low paid workers. The end.


If only macro-economics were that simple.


----------



## Loose meat (Jun 28, 2021)

If only Project Fear had more dimension; what was it with bankers - a nice round 200K. They were all off to ... Zurich?
Then 100K crop pickers seem to have matierialsed out of thin air and it's the people transporting the picked crops who are missing now - another nice round 100K.

I do love all  you lefties supporting the owners narratives.

It's a readjustment to the mid-noughties, before the influx of drivers from countries where the min wage was either side of £3 an hour, and £10 and hour in the UK seemed a wonderful dream. HGV should/will be a min of £30K up north and clser to £35K down south. 

Dignity in the workplace again.


----------



## Loose meat (Jun 28, 2021)

Who knows, at this rate we might even see more automated car washes in London again.


----------



## Ax^ (Jun 28, 2021)

sure they not find way to bring down the increase in wages for these jobs

you can trust the government with workers right

also trunk driver would still earning near and above  30 grand down south before we left the eu

truck driving is not a unskilled trade and EU trucks are still coming into the country


----------



## MrSki (Jun 28, 2021)




----------



## Streathamite (Jun 28, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> Yes. It's great for low paid workers. The end.


and...umm...the actual _food shortages?_


----------



## Streathamite (Jun 28, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> Dignity in the workplace again.


Nope, just far greater poverty. With the least wealthy suffering most (because that's how capitalism actually _works_).


----------



## Loose meat (Jun 29, 2021)

The exact voice of employers. You should work at The Guardian.


----------



## Badgers (Jun 29, 2021)

I am told this will go VERY well  



> As part of the changes the CE mark has been replaced with the UKCA mark for products placed on the GB market, it is slightly different for Northern Ireland where the mark used is the UKCA(NI) mark. We now start to see the letters UKCA on products we purchase – from children’s toys to electronics, as well as windows and other construction products.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 29, 2021)

Is this true Remainers?


----------



## Supine (Jun 29, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Is this true Remainers?
> 
> View attachment 275928



What silly bollocks are you suggesting?


----------



## Raheem (Jun 29, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Is this true Remainers?
> 
> View attachment 275928


Only since Brexit.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 29, 2021)

Supine said:


> What silly bollocks are you suggesting?



I'm not , she is . The Whiteness of French Food. Law, Race, and Eating Culture in France by Mathilde  Cohen :: SSRN


----------



## BillRiver (Jun 29, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> I'm not , she is . The Whiteness of French Food. Law, Race, and Eating Culture in France by Mathilde  Cohen :: SSRN



You don't think food is an important part of French culture? And that France is structurally racist?


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 29, 2021)

BillRiver said:


> You don't think food is an important part of French culture? And that France is structurally racist?


I'm asking what Remainers think.


----------



## BillRiver (Jun 29, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> I'm asking what Remainers think.



But unwilling to give your opinion on the issue?

And imagining all remain voters think alike?

How very silly.


----------



## Raheem (Jun 29, 2021)

BillRiver said:


> You don't think food is an important part of French culture? And that France is structurally racist?


There's a constant relationship between anything to do with native traditionalism and anything right wing.

But I think (hope) 39s's question wasn't totally serious.


----------



## Ax^ (Jun 29, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> I'm asking what Remainers think.


do you eat French food you like outside of France does it give you a sense of white privilege?


----------



## Supine (Jun 29, 2021)

I don’t see what the french eat has anything to do with remainers??? Or brexiteers for that matter.

I’m very happy living in a country where I can eat french, Italian, Indian or Thai food at will.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 29, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> do you eat French food you like outside of France does it give you a sense of white privilege?


I have never had a sense of white privilege tbh and certainly wouldn't get one from a Greggs baguette


----------



## Colin Hunt (Jun 29, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Is this true Remainers?


I don't think it's a stretch to say that practices around food and eating are elements in the maintenance of structures of power in society, and that French practices in this area (more so than British practices) reinforce a certain white Christian superiority. I also don't see what this has to do with Brexit.


----------



## Ax^ (Jun 29, 2021)

also the flipside of English food is terrible so you do not get a sense of white privilege from eating it


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 29, 2021)

Colin Hunt said:


> I don't think it's a stretch to say that practices around food and eating are elements in the maintenance of structures of power in society, and that French practices in this area (more so than British practices) reinforce a certain white Christian superiority. I also don't see what this has to do with Brexit.


Thanks . That’s helpful. So you agree with the premise of the article but disagree with it being in this thread ?


----------



## Supine (Jun 29, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Thanks . That’s helpful. So you agree with the premise of the article but disagree with it being in this thread ?



I think we’re trying to work out why it is in this thread. Give us a clue!


----------



## andysays (Jun 29, 2021)

BillRiver said:


> You don't think food is an important part of French culture? And that France is structurally racist?


I haven't read the article, and TBH I have no intention of doing do, but I think food is definitely an important part of traditional French culture, as it is in most cultures. In fact, if anything it's probably more important in French culture than in many others. It's significant in traditional English culture, but way less than in French, I suggest.

And France is definitely structurally racist, as are most states, definitely including the UK. I would similarly suggest that traditional French food culture is a significant part of the way in which structural racism and white privilege are expressed in France, much more than could be said for English food culture.

It's also interesting to me that the word "traditional" is missing from the headline, but is clearly implied, as illustrated by the accompanying photo. There are obviously many other cuisines that now make up French food culture(s), especially those brought from former French colonies by former colonial subjects, but I would imagine that those are implicitly ruled out of what many people consider when they talk about French food culture.

But I too am slightly baffled where this all fits in the context of this particular thread...


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 29, 2021)

Supine said:


> I think we’re trying to work out why it is in this thread. Give us a clue!


Let’s concentrate on the premise of the article rather than get obsessed about a filing issue . Two or three posters here have made some useful contributions .


----------



## Smangus (Jun 29, 2021)

I thought white privilege was a type of sourdough bread🤨


----------



## Raheem (Jun 29, 2021)

Smangus said:


> I thought white privilege was a type of sourdough bread🤨


You're thinking of White Pride.


----------



## bimble (Jun 29, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> I'm asking what Remainers think.


Brilliant. I voted remain 5 years ago so i must be one of that type of people. There are two types of people in the UK and I'm that kind!
Do you even for a moment stop to think how fucking stupid this is or do you think its all just harmless fun repeating the exact same stuff invented by focus groups paid by Johnson and Gove and then disseminated by the daily mail etc.
but yes, French food is very foreign, like going abroad is, and I am white and i like that sort of thing so yes.


----------



## klang (Jun 29, 2021)

Halim Patisserie on Green Lanes bakes a mean white Pide. Cheap too.


----------



## Ax^ (Jun 29, 2021)

still ponders what french food got to do with being a remainer



more so the question from a leaver who does not live in the uk anymore


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 29, 2021)

bimble said:


> Brilliant. I voted remain 5 years ago so i must be one of that type of people. There are two types of people in the UK and I'm that kind!
> Do you even for a moment stop to think how fucking stupid this is or do you think its all just harmless fun repeating the exact same stuff invented by focus groups paid by Johnson and Gove and then disseminated by the daily mail etc.
> but yes, French food is very foreign, like going abroad is, and I am white and i like that sort of thing so yes.


Barmy


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jun 29, 2021)

The choices of what foods are sold and promoted is inherently political, choices are made of what to subside, what to grow, what cookery shows to endorse.

For the most part it's well down on the list of what problems to deal with in the West currently  but that's because prior to say the very early 20th century it became clear food was s very real concern which is why it's important to ensure the supply never runs low so concentrated efforts take place to ensure it doesn't.


----------



## bimble (Jun 29, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Barmy


You think using the word Remainers in all seriousness, to define thousands of people, in 2021, is sane? maybe you're just joking  or whatever but you're helping the people who invented the whole stupid thing. I cant imagine talking about 'leavers' as a group noun ever tbh.


----------



## Ax^ (Jun 29, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> The choices of what foods are sold and promoted is inherently political, choices are made of what to subside, what to grow, what cookery shows to endorse.
> 
> For the most part it's well down on the list of what problems to deal with in the West currently  but that's because prior to say the very early 20th century it became clear food was s very real concern which is why it's important to ensure the supply never runs low so concentrated efforts take place to ensure it doesn't.



and people vote for brexit threating that

what the fuck has it got to do with french food


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jun 29, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> and people vote for brexit threating that
> 
> what the fuck has it got to do with french food



No fucking idea, pissing on 48% of the population and shouting "loooooser" should have gotten old by now.


----------



## bimble (Jun 29, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> No fucking idea, pissing on 48% of the population and shouting "loooooser" should have gotten old by now.


No its FUN because that 48% are all posh Guardian Wankers and the other 52 are Salt of The Earth workers, and  using your brain to actually think or read about stats (like for instance that owning yr own home is the strongest predictor for voting leave) is a very Remainer and therefore bad sort of thing to do.


----------



## JimW (Jun 29, 2021)

We are on a thread thanking "Brexiteers" for Tory policies so it's labels all round it seems.


----------



## Supine (Jun 29, 2021)

Whoever started this french food thing obviously has a Boeuf about something but it’s a load of Coq from what I can tell.


----------



## Ax^ (Jun 29, 2021)

since brexit i've start refer to ramequins as  ramekins


to stop the working class nieghbours  smashing my windows


----------



## Raheem (Jun 29, 2021)

The French call chocolate teacakes "negro heads". Which I think tells you everything you need to know about Brexit.


----------



## Ax^ (Jun 29, 2021)

and don't even talk about the dutch and the swiss


its why we voted for brexit

*Shakes fist at sky


----------



## Colin Hunt (Jun 29, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Thanks . That’s helpful. So you agree with the premise of the article but disagree with it being in this thread ?


I read the SSRN paper that you linked to and agreed with a lot of what she wrote (although I thought that some of her points were a bit too broad, and I remain sceptical about the utility of whiteness studies as an academic discipline in general). What were your thoughts?

As someone who's relatively new to this forum I'm not going to tell anyone where to post stuff. I can't help but think that I'm missing something though as this doesn't seem to have much relevance to Brexit. The fact that you addressed your question to only 'remainers' and haven't given your own view makes me think that this is a set-up for a joke at the expense of other members that I'm not going to understand.


----------



## Saul Goodman (Jun 29, 2021)

Raheem said:


> You're thinking of White Pride.


White Mothers Pride - Grammar that up as you will.


----------



## Colin Hunt (Jun 29, 2021)

Raheem said:


> The French call chocolate teacakes "negro heads". Which I think tells you everything you need to know about Brexit.


Not to mention the term for ghostwriter was until very recently the same as a racial slur.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 29, 2021)

Colin Hunt said:


> I read the SSRN paper that you linked to and agreed with a lot of what she wrote (although I thought that some of her points were a bit too broad, and I remain sceptical about the utility of whiteness studies as an academic discipline in general). What were your thoughts?
> 
> As someone who's relatively new to this forum I'm not going to tell anyone where to post stuff. I can't help but think that I'm missing something though as this doesn't seem to have much relevance to Brexit. The fact that you addressed your question to only 'remainers' and haven't given your own view makes me think that this is a set-up for a joke at the expense of other members that I'm not going to understand.


There was more than a little tongue in cheek in where I posted it tbh . 
However the  article and the replies do deserve a proper discussion .
Is the formula France is institutionally  racist therefore it’s food is valid ?
Does this apply to all to all national cuisine especially those who had empires? 
Is institutional racism the same as white privilege? 
How do those who believe in white privilege theory respond to the national cuisine issue ? 
I don’t support white privilege theory.
Perhaps I should start a separate thread on this as , as always with food , it’s a fascinating discussion.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jun 29, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> also the flipside of English food is terrible



What? All of it?


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 29, 2021)




----------



## Ax^ (Jun 29, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> What? All of it?



ah you must not be posh enough for french food bet you voted for  brexit


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jun 29, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> ah you must not be posh enough for french food bet you voted for  brexit


Just wondered why your view of English food is stuck in 1978 is all..


----------



## Ax^ (Jun 29, 2021)

no idea i only moved to the country in the 1990's


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 29, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> The exact voice of employers. You should work at The Guardian.


 Fuck off with your virtual signalling


----------



## Raheem (Jun 30, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> View attachment 276015


Only the bathrooms were avocado.


----------



## gosub (Jun 30, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> ah you must not be posh enough for french food bet you voted for  brexit


Fuck off, the standard of food, beyond the Brake Bros end of things, within the Uk is a far higher par than France these days.  This never will be a 1973 reset.


----------



## two sheds (Jun 30, 2021)

gosub said:


> Fuck off, the standard of food, beyond the Brake Bros end of things, within the Uk is a far higher par than France these days.  This never will be a 1973 reset.


And what's wrong with sherry trifle at 20p??? 

Philistine


----------



## gosub (Jun 30, 2021)

Although given the current state of the labour market....



maybe


----------



## Yossarian (Jun 30, 2021)

Pate maison? Ravioli? Gateau? All sounds very continental compared to what people were eating a couple of decades earlier. Anchovy toast could be due for a comeback, if there are any anchovies left.


----------



## two sheds (Jun 30, 2021)

Today is Sunday,
Sunday church,
Saturday pay day,
Friday fish,
Thursday roast beef,
Wednesday soup,
Tuesday string beans,
Monday wash day,
All you hungry brothers,
We wish the same to you


----------



## Ax^ (Jun 30, 2021)

all this sausage war talk in north ireland always wonder who is eating british sausages in the north
must be the DUP and the orange men


----------



## bimble (Jun 30, 2021)

i see the EU has formally agreed to the Uk's request to again extend the chilled meats to NI grace period thing. What is supposed to have changed by September to make it work then when it wouldn't work now?


----------



## Loose meat (Jun 30, 2021)

Look at this extraordinary employers narrative promoted in The Guardian - no hint of an employment landscape reshaping, retooling, just a plain demand to bring in more and more SE EU (min wage: £3.00-£3.50 an hour) labour - lets keep that downward pressure on wages at all costs!









						Combat staff shortages by relaxing Brexit immigration rules, says CBI
					

Business lobby group warns failure to act will put UK’s economic recovery from Covid crisis at risk




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Ax^ (Jun 30, 2021)

Jesus the one is even more lazy that marty1 was



paper report what CBI and ioh have been saying for last few years

take that lefties


----------



## Loose meat (Jun 30, 2021)

It's today's Guardian narrative, not mine


----------



## Colin Hunt (Jun 30, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> There was more than a little tongue in cheek in where I posted it tbh .


Yeah I thought so, but thought the article was interesting and deserved a proper discussion. Cheers for the reply. Bear in mind that many of the words I'm about to type may be utter bollocks.


The39thStep said:


> However the article and the replies do deserve a proper discussion .
> Is the formula France is institutionally racist therefore it’s food is valid ?


I don't think one thing necessarily follows the other in all cases. As I said earlier, practices around food and eating reinforce power structures in society and in France one of those power structures revolves around race and religion. Focusing just on institutional racism misses the fact that a lot of these practices emanate from outside of formal institutions and instead from social conventions created by the French upper classes. It's that extra-institutional stuff that makes me suggest that practices around food are less fraught with white supremacy in the UK.

Also if we're mentioning institutions, many decisions on French food are in the hands of far right politicians. This again goes beyond institutional racism and into the realm of outright racism.


The39thStep said:


> Does this apply to all to all national cuisine especially those who had empires?


Many groups and nations have practices around food and eating that reinforce social norms, whether they're related to race, caste, gender, age, etc. Yet food also creates spaces for sociality and sharing.

When it comes to 'national cuisine' in particular, I think France is a special case here for two reasons:

1. I would say very few countries have a national cuisine in the way the French do. The very fact that you used the word cuisine here instead of cooking or food shows the pervasive influence of French food on the debate. What you'd think of as the national cuisine of a country is most often just a pastiche of dishes that aren't particularly distinct (pasties, patties, samosas, empanadas, calzones, knishes, khuushuur and baozi are just dough with local fillings prepared in different ways) because for the majority of human history food was a survival item and not a cultural signifier.

It's when restaurant culture begins that French cuisine begins to market itself. French _haute cuisine_ was for a long time the default high culture food, and remains so when it comes to culinary school training in much of the world. As such there is a certain sense of conservatism around French cooking that there isn't in, say, British cooking. We imported our culinary high culture from France, whereas in France their culinary high culture was and is a form of soft power which is now under threat. It's the conservatism that this loss of soft power brings that creates a lot of the racial issues around French food. For example, chicken tikka masala is widely accepted as a British dish, whereas French recognition of couscous as a food with special status has motivated far-right organising ever since.

2. France's approach to its imperial subjects has always been one of creating Frenchmen (their census doesn't survey people's race or religion), and one of the ways that Frenchness has been created is through the principle of secularism. Other countries that have had empires used racial differences to divide and rule, whereas France engaged in policies of assimilation guided by secularism. Historically, both approaches were rooted in white supremacy, but currently the French approach causes more problems because it creates sites of political contest between Frenchness and otherness in food-related practices. Those same issues exist in the UK but involve much less fraught issues (our national identity is not called into question in the same way if a school offers a kosher/halal option at lunchtime, for example).


The39thStep said:


> Is institutional racism the same as white privilege?


Not for me. Institutional racism is one of the elements that causes white privilege, but white privilege can best be described as the bundle of rights that white people have that non-white people of a similar status do not have. This obviously differs massively depending on underlying factors, including class and geography.


The39thStep said:


> How do those who believe in white privilege theory respond to the national cuisine issue ?


You'll have to explain what the national cuisine issue is. For example, I don't think that you can talk about British, Italian or Indian cuisine in the same way that you can talk about French cuisine (although Italian cuisine probably comes closest). As such, I can't really see an issue.


The39thStep said:


> I don’t support white privilege theory.


Whenever someone says they don't support something which has a wide range of meanings depending on context, I think it's always best to ask what they mean. With that in mind, what do you see as 'white privilege theory', and why don't you support it?


The39thStep said:


> Perhaps I should start a separate thread on this as , as always with food , it’s a fascinating discussion.


I wouldn't mind that. It saves hijacking this thread, and I always feel pretty homeless in Brexit discussions.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Jun 30, 2021)

I know we've talked about the glorious covid response of our govt on this thread before as opposed to the EU.

We now have more cases than the whole EU combined.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jun 30, 2021)

sleaterkinney said:


> I know we've talked about the glorious covid response of our govt on this thread before as opposed to the EU.
> 
> We now have more cases than the whole EU combined.




We're #1!


----------



## MrSki (Jun 30, 2021)




----------



## MrSki (Jun 30, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> We're #1!


Better than the remaining EU put together. Still vaccine rollout & all that.


----------



## BillRiver (Jun 30, 2021)

sleaterkinney said:


> .


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jun 30, 2021)

MrSki said:


> Better than the remaining EU put together. Still vaccine rollout & all that.



2 world wars, one world cup, maybe the Euros and the highest deaths per 100k in Europe. Fuck you Germany! 


Maybe, idk. I've stopped paying attention to death figures at this point and I'm just hiding like a moleperson until this is over


----------



## bemused (Jun 30, 2021)

two sheds said:


> And what's wrong with sherry trifle at 20p???
> 
> Philistine


Trifle, king of puddings.


----------



## two sheds (Jun 30, 2021)

bemused said:


> Trifle, king of puddings.


and the bottom layer of my favourite ever pudding with a pre-revolutionary Russian-like name that I can't quite recall, which a friend made the best ever.


----------



## two sheds (Jun 30, 2021)

it's got sponge in what's it called I want some now


----------



## BillRiver (Jun 30, 2021)

two sheds said:


> it's got sponge in what's it called I want some now



Punschtorte?


----------



## Supine (Jun 30, 2021)

MrSki said:


> Better than the remaining EU put together. Still vaccine rollout & all that.



EU are going to overtake us on vaccine rollout soon I think.


----------



## two sheds (Jun 30, 2021)

BillRiver said:


> Punschtorte?


noooooooooo more western than that I nearly have it


----------



## two sheds (Jun 30, 2021)

two sheds said:


> it's got sponge in what's it called I want some now


Pavlova I remembered  they're out of stock


----------



## BillRiver (Jun 30, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Pavlova I remembered  they're out of stock



Yay! And also nay.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Jul 1, 2021)

sleaterkinney said:


> We now have more cases than the whole EU combined.





Artaxerxes said:


> We're #1!



world beating!


----------



## andysays (Jul 1, 2021)

So we're blaming people who voted for Brexit five years ago for the third wave of Covid now?

Some really classy contributions on this thread, as ever.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jul 1, 2021)

andysays said:


> So we're blaming people who voted for Brexit five years ago for the third wave of Covid now?
> 
> Some really classy contributions on this thread, as ever.



Not really what I get from this, more despair at how depressing it is to live here run by a bunch of jingoistic clowns who are twenty points ahead in the polls


----------



## andysays (Jul 1, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Not really what I get from this, more despair at how depressing it is to live here run by a bunch of jingoistic clowns who are twenty points ahead in the polls


Let me remind you of the very first post on the thread



MrSki said:


> A thank you *to all the Brexiteers on the boards* for not rubbing my nose in all the benefits that Brexit has achieved. It is very kind of you not to gloat in all that you won.


This has been the premise of the thread from the very beginning.

I'm pretty sure that none of the bunch of jingoistic clowns who run things and who are twenty points ahead in the polls post on Urban, at least not regularly.


----------



## two sheds (Jul 1, 2021)

Can I make it clear that I'm not blaming people who voted for Brexit for the lack of Pavlova



yet


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jul 1, 2021)

andysays said:


> Let me remind you of the very first post on the thread
> 
> 
> This has been the premise of the thread from the very beginning.
> ...



It's almost as if urban is incapable of staying on topic.



two sheds said:


> Can I make it clear that I'm not blaming people who voted for Brexit for the lack of Pavlova
> 
> 
> 
> yet



Honestly I've been craving a Bienenstich for the last 18 months and that's not entirely brexits fault


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jul 1, 2021)

One Covid prediction; the Delta variant is about to rip through Europe. 

The U.K. tests ~50% of all positive cases for variants.
France tests ~3%
Germany tests ~1.5%

It is already there and about to explode as it has here.

Thankfully by the time it took hold here so many people had been vaccinated that the deaths have remained much lower than in previous waves. Now EU nations are catching up on the vaccinations hopefully it will be less severe there too.

Btw, India and South Africa test for variants fairly extensively and guess what? They find them.


----------



## Spymaster (Jul 1, 2021)

Yes. Europe is just a few weeks behind the UK, is all. Also not sure what this has to do with Brexit.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jul 1, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Yes. Europe is just a few weeks behind the UK, is all. Also not sure what this has to do with Brexit.



Naff all to do with Brexit, ‘cept for the rule that anything bad happening here that is not happening there = Brexit...


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 1, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> One Covid prediction; the Delta variant is about to rip through Europe.
> 
> The U.K. tests ~50% of all positive cases for variants.
> France tests ~3%
> ...


Already happening here  


> The relative frequency of the Delta variant is 82.8% in the Centro region, 76.4% in Lisbon and Vale do Tejo and 75% in the Algarve. In the Northern region the dominant variant is still Alpha (associated with the United Kingdom).


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 1, 2021)

andysays said:


> So we're blaming people who voted for Brexit five years ago for the third wave of Covid now?
> 
> Some really classy contributions on this thread, as ever.


Slight improvement on wishing that older people who voted for Brexit  should die soon


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 1, 2021)

14 deaths yesterday (but almost 300 on ventilators).  Last I saw (last week) 1/3 of deaths in over 65s had chosen to not be vaccinated. 

People won't put up with this after the next 'freedom day' - mass civil disobenience seems inevitable after that, Gov has no choice


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 1, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> 14 deaths yesterday (but almost 300 on ventilators).  Last I saw (last week) 1/3 of deaths in over 65s had chosen to not be vaccinated.
> 
> People won't put up with this after the next 'freedom day' - mass civil disobenience seems inevitable after that, Gov has no choice


Surprised you can breathe with all that shite in your gob


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 1, 2021)

LOL. Too early for hatred, even internet hatred. Go and have a coffee or a walk.


----------



## Supine (Jul 1, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Naff all to do with Brexit, ‘cept for the rule that anything bad happening here that is not happening there = Brexit...



Naff all to do with Brexit, apart from you wrongly bringing up vaccination rollout as a Brexit benefit on multiple occasions.

Glad we can now agree it isn’t related


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 1, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> LOL. Too early for hatred, even internet hatred. Go and have a coffee or a walk.


Oh I don't hate you. Not in the slightest. You're not worth the effort, it's more contempt I feel


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 1, 2021)

oh i see, yet another virtue signaller. It's the _likes_ you crave, to validate your internet life.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 1, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> oh i see, yet another virtue signaller. It's the _likes_ you crave, to validate your internet life.


Sadly I can't stop people liking my posts any more than you're able to make them start liking yours


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jul 1, 2021)

Supine said:


> Naff all to do with Brexit, apart from you wrongly bringing up vaccination rollout as a Brexit benefit on multiple occasions.
> 
> Glad we can now agree it isn’t related



Wrong how? As in the leader of the EU stating that the fast roll out was a benefit of Brexit, that kind of wrong?


----------



## Raheem (Jul 1, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Wrong how? As in the leader of the EU stating that the fast roll out was a benefit of Brexit, that kind of wrong?


You're assuming that this leader of the EU must be cleverer than you.


----------



## Spymaster (Jul 1, 2021)

Supine said:


> Naff all to do with Brexit, apart from you wrongly bringing up vaccination rollout as a Brexit benefit on multiple occasions.



Remoaners still in denial on this, I see!


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jul 1, 2021)

Raheem said:


> You're assuming that this leader of the EU must be cleverer than you.




Of course I assume that, I have the utmost respect for the her, also for the EU's chief Brexit negotiator, who also stated as fact that the UK's faster roll out was 100% down to Brexit. I doff me cap at the pair of 'em.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jul 1, 2021)

Brexit is a grand old wheeze. Hope we can get another 5 years out of it.


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 1, 2021)

It's a proper industry, paid-off plenty of middle-class mortgages  - half a decade and counting.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 1, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Remoaners still in denial on this, I see!


I think the logic of some of them is that they wanted the EU to roll the vaccine out first , wait for the bodies to pile up and then blame Brexit


----------



## Yossarian (Jul 1, 2021)

What I don't get is how the EU ended up being seen as the bad guys in the vaccine debacle when the EU was exporting millions of doses to countries including Britain and Britain was exporting fuck-all apart from COVID variants.


----------



## Spymaster (Jul 1, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> I think the logic of some of them is that they wanted the EU to roll the vaccine out first , wait for the bodies to pile up and then blame Brexit


Exactly this. They're disappointed.


----------



## andysays (Jul 1, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Slight improvement on wishing that older people who voted for Brexit  should die soon


I imagine lots of them actually *have* died over the past 18 months.

When we eventually get back to some sort of post covid normality and the full figures are known, I wouldn't be surprised to see calls to re-run the referendum on that very basis.


----------



## Spymaster (Jul 1, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> What I don't get is how the EU ended up being seen as the bad guys in the vaccine debacle when the EU was exporting millions of doses to countries including Britain and Britain was exporting fuck-all apart from COVID variants.



The mistake that's being made here is to consider it to be "the EU" exporting the vaccines. It's not. It's _companies_ that manufacture vaccine in EU locations. Those companies were contracted to supply X number of vaccines to various non-EU states. The EU failed to move quickly enough to secure its own supplies from manufacturers in its own backyard who then commenced fulfillment of the other orders contractually (including to the UK in the case of AZ). The EU then threatened to prevent exports (not just to the UK but everywhere) but eventually realised that was a massive cunt's trick, so are spinning it that they are this huge benevolent vaccine exporter as if that was their plan all along.


----------



## Yossarian (Jul 1, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> I think the logic of some of them is that they wanted the EU to roll the vaccine out first , wait for the bodies to pile up and then blame Brexit



I think most people on both sides of the debate apart from a few sociopathic outliers would have preferred to see fewer COVID deaths, not more, tbh.


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 1, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> the EU was exporting millions of doses to countries including Britain and Britain was exporting fuck-all apart from COVID variants.



The EU didn't create a vaccine, though Germany had an interet in one that was profit-led. The EU only had production plants and contracts, and some of those contracts were with buyers outside the EU.


----------



## Dogsauce (Jul 1, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Yes. Europe is just a few weeks behind the UK, is all. Also not sure what this has to do with Brexit.


Arguably, the Delta variant was allowed to be imported here because Johnson didn’t want to upset Modi by closing the door when the science suggested he should, a decision based on securing a post-Brexit trade deal with India. We’re Europe’s Typhoid Mary right now because of this Brexit-related decision.


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 1, 2021)

Are you saying the EU would have avoided the Delta variant but for Johnson's decision on India?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 1, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> Are you saying the EU would have avoided the Delta variant but for Johnson's decision on India?


Don't know about the EU but the UK wouldn't be seeing it flood the country if Johnson had followed the data


----------



## Spymaster (Jul 1, 2021)

Dogsauce said:


> Arguably, the Delta variant was allowed to be imported here because Johnson didn’t want to upset Modi by closing the door when the science suggested he should, a decision based on securing a post-Brexit trade deal with India. We’re Europe’s Typhoid Mary right now because of this Brexit-related decision.



Possibly. If that's the case there will be no Delta wave in Europe. We'll see.


----------



## Spymaster (Jul 1, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Don't know about the EU but the UK wouldn't be seeing it flood the country if Johnson had followed the data



But also, it doesn't really matter if it floods the country if all it does is makes people sneeze a bit. What's important are hospitalisations and deaths, not infections.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jul 1, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> What I don't get is how the EU ended up being seen as the bad guys in the vaccine debacle when the EU was exporting millions of doses to countries including Britain and Britain was exporting fuck-all apart from COVID variants.




The EU hasn't exported a single vaccine.

The EU's ineptitude in procuring vaccines for their citizens led to a massive delay and the additional deaths associated with that delay.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 1, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> But also, it doesn't really matter if it floods the country if all it does is makes people sneeze a bit. What's important are hospitalisations and deaths, not infections.


You forget that infections lead to adaptations and new variants. Not all may prove to be so gentle to the vaccinated.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Jul 1, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> But also, it doesn't really matter if it floods the country if all it does is makes people sneeze a bit. *What's important are hospitalisations and deaths*, not infections.



<cough>

And, long covid cases, currently estimated at 2 million.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 1, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> The EU hasn't exported a single vaccine.


What about all the ones we've received from the other side of the channel?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jul 1, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> What about all the ones we've received from the other side of the channel?



From the EU? I thought they were some kind of political organisation rather than a vaccine manufacturer.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 1, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> From the EU? I thought they were some kind of political organisation rather than a vaccine manufacturer.


A political and economic union, also shorthand for 25 countries on the continent (plus some island countries in the med)


----------



## Spymaster (Jul 1, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> What about all the ones we've received from the other side of the channel?



They're not from "the EU".

They're from private companies who are contracted to supply that product but happen to manufacture it in the EU. The commission has shown that if they were able to stop those exports without the shit hitting every fan in Brussells, they would.

Those vaccine exports are being made despite the EU, not because of them.


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 1, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> From the EU? I thought they were some kind of political organisation rather than a vaccine manufacturer.



I think you'll find it's a shimmering, amorphous empire of virtue over the ways.


----------



## two sheds (Jul 1, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> They're not from "the EU".
> 
> They're from private companies who are contracted to supply that product but happen to manufacture it in the EU.


Doesn't that make the UK vaccines nothing to do with Brexit because they're from private companies who happen to manufacture in the UK?


----------



## Spymaster (Jul 1, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Doesn't that make the UK vaccines nothing to do with Brexit because they're from private companies who happen to manufacture in the UK?



Err, dunno. If you like, but that's not the argument for Brexit being instrumental in the UK vaccine roll-out is it.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jul 1, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Doesn't that make the UK vaccines nothing to do with Brexit because they're from private companies who happen to manufacture in the UK?



The UK didn't make any vaccines either, they were quick out of the traps to secure a supply for their citizens though, which the EU didn't, the reason being, as acknowledged by the EU is that due to the very structure of the EU it is shit at doing things at a reasonable pace.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 1, 2021)

‘Plague Island ‘


----------



## cupid_stunt (Jul 1, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Doesn't that make the UK vaccines nothing to do with Brexit because they're from private companies who happen to manufacture in the UK?



Except the UK government backed development of the Oxford vaccine, and helped to broker the deal with AstraZeneca to licence it across the world, and deliver it at cost price.

The AZ vaccine is currently being produced at 25 different manufacturing sites, in 15 countries, and they are on target to deliver 3 billion doses by the end of the year, the majority for poor to middle income countries, that's a hell of a lot more than what will be exported by companies manufacturing within EU countries.


----------



## Dogsauce (Jul 1, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Possibly. If that's the case there will be no Delta wave in Europe. We'll see.


There will be, but it will mostly have come from here.

the euros won’t be helping matters, but we need bread and circuses.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 1, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> They're not from "the EU".
> 
> They're from private companies who are contracted to supply that product but happen to manufacture it in the EU. The commission has shown that if they were able to stop those exports without the shit hitting every fan in Brussells, they would.
> 
> Those vaccine exports are being made despite the EU, not because of them.


Nonetheless they are exports of vaccines from the eu


----------



## Spymaster (Jul 1, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Nonetheless they are exports of vaccines from the eu



But it's not how the EU are trying to spin it, nor how many people seem to understand it. See Yoss's post for example. People seem to think (or choose to believe the EU nonsense) that the commission, out of sheer benevolence, has decided as a political bloc to manufacture these vaccines for the greater good and then selflessly give them all away. That's bollocks.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 1, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> But it's not how the EU are trying to spin it, nor how many people seem to understand it. See Yoss's post for example. People seem to think (or choose to believe the EU nonsense) that the commission, out of sheer benevolence, has decided as a political bloc to manufacture these vaccines for the greater good and then selflessly give them all away. That's bollocks.


i'm arguing on the point of fact, not the point of perception. no capitalist body is a force for good. all capitalist bodies are a force for evil. we all know this.


----------



## Spymaster (Jul 1, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> i'm arguing on the point of fact, not the point of perception. no capitalist body is a force for good. all capitalist bodies are a force for evil. we all know this.



Ok. In that case, as Bahnhof Strasse pointed out, the EU, as a political organisation, hasn't produced a single drop of vaccine. Nor, as an organisation, has it exported any. In fact, it's attempted to _obstruct_ the export of vaccines from it's borders. That's fact too.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 1, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Ok. In that case, as Bahnhof Strasse pointed out, the EU, as a political organisation, hasn't produced a single drop of vaccine. Nor, as an organisation, has it exported any. In fact, it's attempted to _obstruct_ the export of vaccines from it's borders. That's fact too


this always happens, you always take the contrary position to that i argue and so often as now it leads you into a cul-de-sac. i care not a whit what the eu has tried and failed to do about preventing the delivery of vaccines. the simple fact is that vaccines have been exported from the territory of eu member states, ie from the eu. we can dispute this till the cows come home but you'll just tie yourself up in greater and greater knots.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 1, 2021)

Africans not required 









						Many Covid vaccine doses donated to African countries are not recognized by EU travel certificate
					

The African Union and Africa Centres for Disease Control and Prevention (Africa CDC) have voiced "concern" after it emerged that Europe's digital "green pass" does not recognize a vaccine that was donated to many African countries through the COVAX initiative.




					edition.cnn.com


----------



## Spymaster (Jul 1, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> this always happens, you always take the contrary position to that i argue and so often as now it leads you into a cul-de-sac. i care not a whit what the eu has tried and failed to do about preventing the delivery of vaccines. the simple fact is that vaccines have been exported from the territory of eu member states, ie from the eu. we can dispute this till the cows come home but you'll just tie yourself up in greater and greater knots.



 I haven't taken a contrary position. You're just being wilfully obtuse, as is so often your want!

I responded to Yossarian's post which was based on a misunderstanding of the European Commission's relationship with vaccine manufacture and export. That has now been corrected. You knew the answer too so I've simply further clarified it for you.

Thank me later


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 1, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> I haven't taken a contrary position. You're just being wilfully obtuse, as is so often your want!
> 
> I responded to Yossarian's post which was based on a misunderstanding of the European Commission's relationship with vaccine manufacture and export. That has now been corrected. You knew the answer too so I've simply further clarified it for you.
> 
> Thank me later


still waiting for those adoption papers to come through


----------



## andysays (Jul 1, 2021)

Dogsauce said:


> Arguably, the Delta variant was allowed to be imported here because Johnson didn’t want to upset Modi by closing the door when the science suggested he should, a decision based on securing a post-Brexit trade deal with India. We’re Europe’s Typhoid Mary right now because of this Brexit-related decision.


I don't think there's even any argument about that, and I've said as much previously. 

But those of us who voted Leave are not responsible for every single Brexit related fuck up there has been since 2016.

Arguably, the hardline Remainers in parliament and elsewhere share a great deal of the responsibility for lumbering all of us with a Johnson government


----------



## bimble (Jul 1, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Yes. Europe is just a few weeks behind the UK, is all. Also not sure what this has to do with Brexit.


Try harder?  If we weren't desperate for a trade deal with India, and if Johnson hadn't been planning to go there to kiss Modi's arse in April, we would, In my opinion, not be in this world beating situation. The gov would have put India on the red list at the beginning of April, which would without doubt have made us fall down the league table of infectedness wouldn't it. 
As so many things though not Brexit the idea but brexit as implemented, in real life, with these twats in charge of it.


----------



## Spymaster (Jul 1, 2021)

bimble said:


> Try harder?  If we weren't desperate for a trade deal with India, and if Johnson hadn't been planning to go there to kiss Modi's arse in April, we would, In my opinion, not be in this world beating situation. The gov would have put India on the red list at the beginning of April, which would without doubt have made us fall down the league table of infectedness wouldn't it.
> As so many things though not Brexit the idea but brexit as implemented, in real life, with these twats in charge of it.


I suspect your post is probably guff but even if it were correct, the mistake made by the UKG in relation to India is now being repeated in spades by the beloved can-do-no-wrong EU in relation to here, by allowing tens of thousands of Brits into Europe in the _full knowledge_ of the UK Delta infection jump. Obviously though, any 3rd wave across Europe will be the fault of the UK allowing the delta variant to enter _its_ borders. Not because the EU member states allowed it to enter _theirs. _That's only fair and reasonable and should be the position of every right-thinking remoaner


----------



## bimble (Jul 1, 2021)

good effort. But its not really true is it, in that the Uk is currently doing its best to convince merkel etc to let us in. 








						UK PM confident on travel for people with two COVID-19 vaccine shots
					

Prime Minister Boris Johnson said on Thursday he was confident  Britons fully vaccinated against COVID-19 would be able to travel abroad this year.




					www.reuters.com
				



When you type Remoaner do you get a little thrill every time?


----------



## Spymaster (Jul 1, 2021)

bimble said:


> good effort. But its not really true is it, in that the Uk is currently doing its best to convince merkel etc to let us in.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ah, ok. So _no_ EU third wave based on Delta infections from the UK apparently Dogsauce

Have you any idea what's going on there at the moment?

You remoaners really do want to have your cake and eat it, don't you?

"Remoaners" is to irritate specific people. Nice 'like' by the way


----------



## bimble (Jul 1, 2021)

i've never understood what the point is of just having a cake.


----------



## Spymaster (Jul 1, 2021)

bimble said:


> i've never understood what the point is of just having a cake.



Fair point.


----------



## Spymaster (Jul 1, 2021)

/


----------



## Spymaster (Jul 1, 2021)

/


----------



## bimble (Jul 1, 2021)

\


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jul 1, 2021)

bimble said:


> i've never understood what the point is of just having a cake.




There is no point, much like saying boo to a goose.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 1, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> I think the logic of some of them is that they wanted the EU to roll the vaccine out first , wait for the bodies to pile up and then blame Brexit



It's a similar sad story in terms of the economy. Job losses/redundancies/capital flight are all seized on with glee to 'prove' that their apocalyptic warnings are all about to come true. Not only does this wrongly assume that all of the decision making by capital can be understood through the use of a single lens, but as a form of politics it's essentially useless. Worse still, it's a part of a really bad look developed by an embittered wing of the professional middle class and their aspirant allies that has been widely clocked: as the Labour Party are currently discovering.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Jul 1, 2021)

andysays said:


> So we're blaming people who voted for Brexit five years ago for the third wave of Covid now?
> 
> Some really classy contributions on this thread, as ever.


We were told that the covid response, especially the vaccine was one of the many benefits of brexit.


----------



## two sheds (Jul 1, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> There is no point, much like saying boo to a goose.


unless you walk towards them flapping your arms, then it's worth saying boo to a goose.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Jul 1, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> It's a similar sad story in terms of the economy. Job losses/redundancies/capital flight are all seized on with glee to 'prove' that their apocalyptic warnings are all about to come true. Not only does this wrongly assume that all of the decision making by capital can be understood through the use of a single lens, but as a form of politics it's essentially useless. Worse still, it's a part of a really bad look developed by an embittered wing of the professional middle class and their aspirant allies that has been widely clocked: as the Labour Party are currently discovering.


It's about holding the people who lied about brexit to account. Should we all pretend it didn't exist or something?.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 1, 2021)

sleaterkinney said:


> It's about holding the people who lied about brexit to account. Should we all pretend it didn't exist or something?.



How is a fantasy about the EU vaccine programme or celebrating people losing their jobs ‘holding people to account’?


----------



## sleaterkinney (Jul 1, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> How is a fantasy about the EU vaccine programme or celebrating people losing their jobs ‘holding people to account’?


People losing their jobs is a result of brexit, should that be ignored?. 
The huge delta spike is because of the UK chasing deals as a result of brexit, should that be ignored?


----------



## Yossarian (Jul 1, 2021)

"Remoaners want your gran to die from COVID to make Brexit look bad" seems like a level of fantasy even the Daily Express might think twice about.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 1, 2021)

sleaterkinney said:


> People losing their jobs is a result of brexit, should that be ignored?.
> The huge delta spike is because of the UK chasing deals as a result of brexit, should that be ignored?



People lose their jobs for a multiplicity of reasons. The contorted attempts to link them to Brexit, normally accompanied by continuity remain headbangers chirping ‘they can’t say they weren’t warned’ is embarrassing shit politics.

As for your point about the delta variant the attempt made to show ‘all roads lead back to Brexit’ is a prime example of what I’m talking about. The underlying assumption being that if only the UK had voted to remain in a neo-liberal trading bloc the ruling class wouldn’t have killed hundreds of thousands due to venality, greed and incompetence. Otherworldly stuff


----------



## Cerv (Jul 1, 2021)

bimble said:


> i see the EU has formally agreed to the Uk's request to again extend the chilled meats to NI grace period thing. What is supposed to have changed by September to make it work then when it wouldn't work now?



is that enough time for manufacturers of these sausages to shift (some) production out of GB to NI or ROI? so they no longer need to be imported. supermarket chillers shelves stocked happily to sufficient quantities and crisis averted.


or the UK government collapses and is replaced by Starmer willing to sign up to a Swiss style agri-food agreement to follow the offending EU standards.


----------



## Yossarian (Jul 1, 2021)

I think it'll be the case for a long long time to come that people on both sides are going to view everything through the prism of Brexit and treat developments bad or good - many of which are unfolding in exactly the same way in countries in the EU and beyond - as evidence they were correct. Might all come to a head if the Euro final ends up being England vs. Belgium.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 1, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> It's a similar sad story in terms of the economy. Job losses/redundancies/capital flight are all seized on with glee to 'prove' that their apocalyptic warnings are all about to come true. Not only does this wrongly assume that all of the decision making by capital can be understood through the use of a single lens, but as a form of politics it's essentially useless. Worse still, it's a part of a really bad look developed by an embittered wing of the professional middle class and their aspirant allies that has been widely clocked: as the Labour Party are currently discovering.


Yes always heartening when the CBI is gleefully quoted. Meanwhile the alleged victims of Brexit , the working classes are told that the  pay rises that are necessary to fill vacancies will make prices rise. I’m alright Jake.


----------



## brogdale (Jul 1, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> There is no point, much like saying boo to a goose.


Disagree.
Although there is no conventionally rational explanation for wanting cake but not eating it, saying boo to a goose/geese (that may be aggressive is startled at/close to their nest), might well shock the attacking avians into some sort of retreat.

Hence, the phrase to describe someone too timid to speak up.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 1, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> There is no point, much like saying boo to a goose.


just as an aside, the saying was originally 'saying boo to a ghost' which is a bit pointless.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jul 1, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Disagree.
> Although there is no conventionally rational explanation for wanting cake but not eating it, saying boo to a goose/geese (that may be aggressive is startled at/close to their nest), might well shock the attacking avians into some sort of retreat.
> 
> Hence, the phrase to describe someone too timid to speak up.




Geese don't really attack very hard, even when protecting goslings, the most they do is hiss. Swans rear up and spread their wings, geese don't. And saying boo to either has no effect on their behaviour at all. 

Goose's best shot at me recently...


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jul 1, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> just as an aside, the saying was originally 'saying boo to a ghost' which is a bit pointless.




Sounds more plausible, but equally absurd. Should you meet a ghost threaten to turn on the Henry and give the bastard a good sucking.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 1, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Sounds more plausible, but equally absurd. Should you meet a ghost threaten to turn on the Henry and give the bastard a good sucking.


turning on the henry and giving them a good sucking may not convey the ghostbusters image you desire to an entity with no knowledge of post-1700 technology

it might rather suggest to them an aroused monarch and oral sex.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Jul 1, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> People lose their jobs for a multiplicity of reasons. The contorted attempts to link them to Brexit, normally accompanied by continuity remain headbangers chirping ‘they can’t say they weren’t warned’ is embarrassing shit politics.
> 
> As for your point about the delta variant the attempt made to show ‘all roads lead back to Brexit’ is a prime example of what I’m talking about. The underlying assumption being that if only the UK had voted to remain in a neo-liberal trading bloc the ruling class wouldn’t have killed hundreds of thousands due to venality, greed and incompetence. Otherworldly stuff


Fishermen and now Farmers have already been thrown on the scrapheap as a direct result of brexit, it's not a contortion at all.


----------



## JimW (Jul 1, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Disagree.
> Although there is no conventionally rational explanation for wanting cake but not eating it, saying boo to a goose/geese (that may be aggressive is startled at/close to their nest), might well shock the attacking avians into some sort of retreat.
> 
> Hence, the phrase to describe someone too timid to speak up.


It's that you cannot simultaneously have the cake in your possession and also have eaten it but the tenses haven't been adjusted to make that clear.


----------



## brogdale (Jul 1, 2021)

JimW said:


> It's that you cannot simultaneously have the cake in your possession and also have eaten it but the tenses haven't been adjusted to make that clear.


It's a quiet news day!


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 1, 2021)

sleaterkinney said:


> Fishermen and now Farmers have already been thrown on the scrapheap as a direct result of brexit, it's not a contortion at all.


Sadly not politicians or parasite royals tho their turn will come


----------



## Smangus (Jul 1, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Sadly not politicians or parasite royals tho their turn will come



Starving penguins 😔


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jul 1, 2021)

sleaterkinney said:


> Fishermen and now Farmers have already been thrown on the scrapheap as a direct result of brexit, it's not a contortion at all.



No no, the most divisive vote in the last 20 years has no echoes or fallout after January 1st 2021*

We left, it’s done. We won.**

*including Iraq - it was vocal but not as vocal as the brexit wars

**where have I heard that before...


----------



## Dogsauce (Jul 1, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> It's a similar sad story in terms of the economy. Job losses/redundancies/capital flight are all seized on with glee to 'prove' that their apocalyptic warnings are all about to come true. Not only does this wrongly assume that all of the decision making by capital can be understood through the use of a single lens, but as a form of politics it's essentially useless. Worse still, it's a part of a really bad look developed by an embittered wing of the professional middle class and their aspirant allies that has been widely clocked: as the Labour Party are currently discovering.



hashtag ‘wetoldyouso’, a sound political strategy for winning hearts and minds since 2018.


----------



## Badgers (Jul 2, 2021)




----------



## Badgers (Jul 2, 2021)

#worldbeating


----------



## xenon (Jul 2, 2021)

The cake phrase is the wrong way round. In original Shakespearean times I believe it was you want to eat your cake and have it. Which makes more sense.


----------



## NoXion (Jul 2, 2021)

Badgers said:


> View attachment 276409



People drinking less mineral water is a good thing.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 2, 2021)

Lorry driver shortage due to Brexit and Covid


----------



## xenon (Jul 2, 2021)

Won’t be long before robots are driving the trucks anyway.  But as a fan of food and stuff, I’d quite like there to be enough human drivers to keep supplies coming in, in the meantime.


----------



## xenon (Jul 2, 2021)

How about offering fast track training for those in the UK who want it.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 2, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Lorry driver shortage due to Brexit and Covid
> 
> View attachment 276416



My brothers father in law is a lorry driver for a firm that supplies Tesco’s among others. They’ve just knocked back an 8% pay offer and are holding out for 10.5% plus additional leave days and new rotas. The firm has also had to take contracted drivers into permanent employment- conferring sick pay, annual leave and other employment rights - to retain them.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 2, 2021)

First response on Twitter to the TUC pay rise tweet that I saw was some Remainer posing the question of prices having to go up .


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 2, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> First response on Twitter to the TUC pay rise tweet that I saw was some Remainer posing the question of prices having to go up .



It can’t be long before continuity remain move into open opposition to workers pay rises and efforts to unionise in favour of the free movement and exploitation of workers


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 2, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> It can’t be long before continuity remain move into open opposition to workers pay rises and efforts to unionise in favour of the free movement and exploitation of workers


Can’t say that on here , you’ll have someone saying it’s a Daily Express headline


----------



## Yossarian (Jul 2, 2021)

Good news for the truckers - will be interesting to see if the effect of Brexit results in higher wage increase for British truckers than in all the other countries where wages are going up because of driver shortages, including EU countries and the US, where some companies are hiking pay as much as 50%.









						Truckers are getting big pay hikes, but there's still a shortage of drivers
					

America's truck driver shortage is driving pay higher. But it's not solving the scarcity of truckers.




					www.cnn.com


----------



## krtek a houby (Jul 2, 2021)

NoXion said:


> People drinking less mineral water is a good thing.



Does anyone actually need water, anyway?


----------



## Smangus (Jul 2, 2021)

I am more concerned about this Haribo shortage

Where are my Gummy Bears?


----------



## NoXion (Jul 2, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> Does anyone actually need water, anyway?



Oh, come off it. Poncey mineral water is absolutely not essential in a country where drinkable tap water is a thing. And the mineral water industry depletes aquifers and contributes to the plastic problem.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jul 2, 2021)

Badgers said:


> View attachment 276409




No more bottling water and shipping it across a continent to a place where tap water is perfectly good to drink? 

As an aside, outside Sainsbury's this morning a morbidly obese gentleman waddled out of the shop, gasped off his mask and lit a fag. He had 6 enormous bottles of water in his trolley. I'm no expert but reckon there maybe one or two steps he could take that would be more beneficial to his health than paying for bottled water...


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 2, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> No more bottling water and shipping it across a continent to a place where tap water is perfectly good to drink?
> 
> As an aside, outside Sainsbury's this morning a morbidly obese gentleman waddled out of the shop, gasped off his mask and lit a fag. He had 6 enormous bottles of water in his trolley. I'm no expert but reckon there maybe one or two steps he could take that would be more beneficial to his health than paying for bottled water...



Leave his mask on whilst smoking you mean?


----------



## andysays (Jul 2, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> First response on Twitter to the TUC pay rise tweet that I saw was some Remainer posing the question of prices having to go up .


Apparently, people are even expected to pay VAT when they buy records online now...

It's a fucking outrage, I tell you


----------



## gosub (Jul 2, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> Does anyone actually need water, anyway?


Yes it's the wet bit in beer


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 2, 2021)

xenon said:


> Won’t be long before robots are driving the trucks anyway.  But as a fan of food and stuff, I’d quite like there to be enough human drivers to keep supplies coming in, in the meantime.


Hopefully they’ll robotise fruit picking as well .


----------



## cupid_stunt (Jul 2, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Hopefully they’ll robotise fruit picking as well .


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 2, 2021)

cupid_stunt said:


>



Bout time too. Always remember hod carrying for an Aussie bricklayer who told me the unions had fought for conveyor belts in Australia.


----------



## MrSki (Jul 2, 2021)

I doubt it is most of them but it might stop food wastage if there are not the staff to serve.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jul 2, 2021)

NoXion said:


> Oh, come off it. Poncey mineral water is absolutely not essential in a country where drinkable tap water is a thing. And the mineral water industry depletes aquifers and contributes to the plastic problem.


Unless this becomes a problem...

UK ‘flying blind’ on levels of toxic chemicals in tap water


----------



## Dogsauce (Jul 3, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> Unless this becomes a problem...
> 
> UK ‘flying blind’ on levels of toxic chemicals in tap water


You think bottled water is cleaner and has less shit in it than tap water? Used to know someone who studied this for their thesis, and it really isn’t, especially biological stuff.


----------



## bimble (Jul 3, 2021)

Badgers said:


> View attachment 276409


What does this mean, no more Perrier ? Now that is a proper middle class concern.  I am alarmed.


----------



## andysays (Jul 3, 2021)

MrSki said:


> I doubt it is most of them but it might stop food wastage if there are not the staff to serve.



As mentioned already, the idea that Brexit has "caused" a shortage of lorry drivers is simplistic nonsense.


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 3, 2021)

The Guardian adds another vital theme to its middle-class narratives - pet passports, roaming charges and, for gods sake, won't someone think of the school ski trips:









						UK school skiing trips to EU could be wiped out by Brexit visa rules
					

Extra cost of permission for British temporary staff to work in resorts likely to be prohibitive for firms




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## krtek a houby (Jul 3, 2021)

Dogsauce said:


> You think bottled water is cleaner and has less shit in it than tap water? Used to know someone who studied this for their thesis, and it really isn’t, especially biological stuff.



Dunno what to believe, have heard both tap and bottle water are questionable. Used to think that UK water was ok.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jul 3, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> Dunno what to believe, have heard both tap and bottle water are questionable. Used to think that UK water was ok.



It is fine, it’s water and potable, that’s all there is to it.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jul 3, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> It is fine, it’s water and potable, that’s all there is to it.



This stage, probably never get back to the UK, anyways 

If there is a UK...


----------



## Yossarian (Jul 3, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> The Guardian adds another vital theme to its middle-class narratives - pet passports, roaming charges and, for gods sake, won't someone think of the school ski trips:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Zero sympathy for posh people whose children's ski trips would be canceled because of Brexit, would be a bonus if they ended up being forced to spend their money on a getaway in Britain instead.

But as that badly written Guardian story eventually mentions, and another one linked to in the text makes clearer, the ski holidays will be proceeding, except with local staff hired as instructors etc. instead of the seasonal British workers traditionally hired, including bar staff and chalet cleaners.

So the downside, apart from the children of the elite experiencing the horror of having a non-British ski instructor, is an estimated 25,000 British seasonal workers losing their winter gigs, and the upside is ... ?


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 3, 2021)

they can drive lorries and vans instead?

Or is the idea we have the wrong kinds of shortages (drivers!), and the wrong kind of unemployed (25,000 ski instructors!), and it's all the fault of bigots and racists who just want everyone to drown in the Hitler Channel.


----------



## Yossarian (Jul 3, 2021)

I don't know if there's a lot people in the middle of the Venn diagram of "People who spend their winters as bartenders in ski resorts" and "People who should be allowed behind the wheel of an HGV."


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 3, 2021)

Don't worry,The Guardian will tell us shortly whether there are 100,000 vacancies for testing staff.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jul 3, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> they can drive lorries and vans instead?
> 
> Or is the idea we have the wrong kinds of shortages (drivers!), and the wrong kind of unemployed (25,000 ski instructors!), and it's all the fault of bigots and racists who just want everyone to drown in the Hitler Channel.



Who's actually saying that, apart from yourself?


----------



## bimble (Jul 3, 2021)

The Hitler Channel. i don't think thats going to catch on you know, unless as a special interest tv channel. You seem very angry all of the time loose meat why is that?


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 3, 2021)

The Swastika Straights?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 3, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> they can drive lorries and vans instead?
> 
> Or is the idea we have the wrong kinds of shortages (drivers!), and the wrong kind of unemployed (25,000 ski instructors!), and it's all the fault of bigots and racists who just want everyone to drown in the Hitler Channel.


Sadly we continue to suffer from a glut of internet bores


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 3, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> The Swastika Straights?


Dire straights


----------



## brogdale (Jul 3, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> Who's actually saying that, apart from yourself?


I'm sure the FT will be reporting structural occupational immobility supply side constraints resulting from exogenous economic shock.


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 3, 2021)

So totally U75: won't someone think of the ski instructors!!


----------



## seeformiles (Jul 3, 2021)

Raheem said:


> The French call chocolate teacakes "negro heads". Which I think tells you everything you need to know about Brexit.



So did the Germans (Mohrenkopf) but they haven’t been for some time now. One Swiss company is trying to retain the name but is finding itself on the wrong side of history:









						Switzerland: Ok to sell sweets called "Mohrenköpfe"?
					

A debate has reignited in Switzerland over the use of the name 'Mohrenköpfe', which means 'Moors' heads' in English, for popular chocolate-coated marshmallow sweets.




					www.eurotopics.net


----------



## brogdale (Jul 3, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> So totally U75: won't someone think of the ski instructors!!


M8 UR PFWC


----------



## mojo pixy (Jul 3, 2021)

As mentioned upthread (and as is quite well known more generally) there are approximately fuckloads of vacancies these days for care and support staff. And while as a nation we choose to have our elderly and disabled family members cared for in facilities rather than in our family homes, there will remain many, many vacancies for anyone with patience and empathy who needs a job.


----------



## brogdale (Jul 3, 2021)

mojo pixy said:


> As mentioned upthread (and as is quite well known more generally) there are approximately fuckloads of vacancies these days for care and support staff. And while as a nation we choose to have our elders cared for in facilities rather than in our family homes, there will remain many, many vacancies for anyone with patience and empathy who needs a job.


No vacancies for investment bankers.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 3, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> Zero sympathy for posh people whose children's ski trips would be canceled because of Brexit, would be a bonus if they ended up being forced to spend their money on a getaway in Britain instead.
> 
> But as that badly written Guardian story eventually mentions, and another one linked to in the text makes clearer, the ski holidays will be proceeding, except with local staff hired as instructors etc. instead of the seasonal British workers traditionally hired, including bar staff and chalet cleaners.
> 
> So the downside, apart from the children of the elite experiencing the horror of having a non-British ski instructor, is an estimated 25,000 British seasonal workers losing their winter gigs, and the upside is ... ?


Predictably the Guardian has run the  same story three times over in the past three years


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 3, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Predictably the Guardian has run the  same story three times over in the past three years


And people think the BBC is the only institution with an issue with repeats


----------



## Yossarian (Jul 3, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> So totally U75: won't someone think of the ski instructors!!



The ski industry guy quoted in the Guardian mentioned bartenders, drivers, cleaners etc., which are not traditionally middle-class occupations - you're just moving the goalposts to support a narrative of anybody who sees a downside of Brexit being posh and out of touch.

The BBC's take on it focused more on the workers - I doubt too many of them will struggle to find alternative employment but the loss of 25,000 jobs doesn't seem like something to sneer at.









						Covid and Brexit: Uncertainty leaves seasonal ski staff in limbo
					

A mix of restrictions has led to uncertainty over whether staff can travel for work in Europe.



					www.bbc.com


----------



## bimble (Jul 3, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> you're just moving the goalposts to support a narrative of anybody who sees a downside of Brexit being posh and out of touch.


This is why its great that loose meat is here, because that's exactly what everyone else was doing on the thread for the past many months but he's even better at it.


----------



## brogdale (Jul 3, 2021)

bimble said:


> This is why its great that loose meat is here, because that's exactly what everyone else was doing on the thread for the past many months but he's even better at it.


_Now, with added Hitler references!_


----------



## andysays (Jul 3, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> The ski industry guy quoted in the Guardian mentioned bartenders, drivers, cleaners etc., which are not traditionally middle-class occupations - you're just moving the goalposts to support a narrative of anybody who sees a downside of Brexit being posh and out of touch.
> 
> The BBC's take on it focused more on the workers - I doubt too many of them will struggle to find alternative employment but the loss of 25,000 jobs doesn't seem like something to sneer at.
> 
> ...


Whilst they're not traditionally MC occupations, I'm going to hazard a guess that there will be a higher proportion of MC people among those Brits who choose to travel to eg Switzerland to work as bartenders, drivers, cleaners in ski resorts than in the general population in those workforces. It's basically a way of subsiding an extended skiing/snowboarding holiday, which is fine as far as it goes, but hardly a bread and butter, food on the table issue.

The jobs haven't been "lost", they will presumably go to either the local workforce or people from other EU countries. And as you say, I doubt too many of them will struggle to find alternative employment, just not in a location which enables them to enjoy their current lifestyle so easily.


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 3, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> The BBC's take on it focused more on the workers - I doubt too many of them will struggle to find alternative employment but the loss of 25,000 jobs doesn't seem like something to sneer at.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Many seem to think the Government has asked the tax-funded BBC to kindly move on from Brexit now half a decade has passed since the vote. 

Brexit seems to be for the Guardian what Diana still is to the Mail and Express.


----------



## Chz (Jul 3, 2021)

andysays said:


> Whilst they're not traditionally WC occupations, I'm going to hazard a guess that there will be a higher proportion of MC people among those Brits who choose to travel to eg Switzerland to work as bartenders, drivers, cleaners in ski resorts than in the general population in those workforces. It's basically a way of subsiding an extended skiing/snowboarding holiday, which is fine as far as it goes, but hardly a bread and butter, food on the table issue.
> 
> The jobs haven't been "lost", they will presumably go to either the local workforce or people from other EU countries. And as you say, I doubt too many of them will struggle to find alternative employment, just not in a location which enables them to enjoy their current lifestyle so easily.


The majority of those jobs would be purely to support British tourists, who are also going to be short on the ground. I'd say those jobs are actually lost for the time being. Eventually the visa rules will relax and Brit skiers will have to get used to the idea of their chalet hosts and bartenders speaking in an accent, but in the short term there's a definite loss there.
(Mrs works for a ski tour company. Or did, before they went bust too.)


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jul 3, 2021)

It’s high time British tourists put on the big boy pants and accepted that when in France they may have to meet French people.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 3, 2021)

Chz said:


> The majority of those jobs would be purely to support British tourists, who are also going to be short on the ground. I'd say those jobs are actually lost for the time being. Eventually the visa rules will relax and Brit skiers will have to get used to the idea of their chalet hosts and bartenders speaking in an accent, but in the short term there's a definite loss there.
> (Mrs works for a ski tour company. Or did, before they went bust too.)


Let them ski in the Cairngorms


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 3, 2021)

Does anyone remember the kefuffle British ski resort firms put up when the Swiss and French insisted that all workers should get the French and Swiss minimum wage not the pittance that the UK firms were paying ?


----------



## krtek a houby (Jul 3, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> It’s high time British tourists put on the big boy pants and accepted that when in France they may have to meet French people.


Big boy ski pants


----------



## Chz (Jul 3, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Does anyone remember the kefuffle British ski resort firms put up when the Swiss and French insisted that all workers should get the French and Swiss minimum wage not the pittance that the UK firms were paying ?


They got around that by deducting room and board at source. They still get (well, got) a pittance. Which is why I'd agree that despite the positions not being traditional MC work, they were most definitely in the main staffed by MC Brits. And proper ski bums who didn't care about earning more than they need to eat.


----------



## Elpenor (Jul 3, 2021)

In my experience most people who “did a ski season” probably did similar jobs in Sydney during their gap yah before going back to London to work in marketing.


----------



## Chz (Jul 3, 2021)

Am being told that the only ski job where you'll see WC (because they mostly can't afford to work for such a pittance) is chefs. They get paid reasonably. As do nannies, but not exactly a bastion of salt-of-the-earth types there.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 3, 2021)

Find it hard to believe that 25000 Brits are/ were employed working in ski resorts tbh . Think that is more likely to be a figure for posted workers in tourism abroad generally.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jul 3, 2021)

Urban needs more skiers/skier related workers to put us right. Otherwise, we just argue and get piste off.


----------



## Dogsauce (Jul 3, 2021)

Plenty of hospitality jobs back here!

It is a bit of a gap year job, my sister did it after graduation from a language degree for a few years, though she was tour rep rather than bar/cleaning so did all the meeting guests and sorting out problems for people, skiing in winter, hill walking stuff in summer (‘lakes and mountains’ I think they called it). Meant she could do loads of outdoor stuff when not working.


----------



## Ax^ (Jul 3, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> The Guardian adds another vital theme to its middle-class narratives - pet passports, roaming charges and, for gods sake, won't someone think of the school ski trips:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You tend to read a lot of Guardian articles


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 3, 2021)

I just read a lot.


----------



## brogdale (Jul 3, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> I just read a lot.


It's good to have one redeeming feature, at least.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 3, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> I just read a lot.


But sadly neither widely nor well


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 3, 2021)

It's coming home, it's coming home  >>


----------



## MrSki (Jul 3, 2021)

So it is not the middle class Gaurdian readers you give as shit about then? It is the FT readers.

quick question who will food shortages impact most


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 3, 2021)

Project Fear peaks again.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 3, 2021)

MrSki said:


> So it is not the middle class Gaurdian readers you give as shit about then? It is the FT readers.
> 
> quick question who will food shortages impact most


Which food shortages are these?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 3, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Which food shortages are these?


Pate de foie gras no doubt


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 4, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Which food shortages are these?


It's becasue of Brexit; no one to pick the crops - no wait, that was a couple of months ago

It's becasue of Brexit; 'red tape' and bureaucracy and 'paperwork' - no wait, that was last month

It's becasue of Brexit; employers became so used to exploiting imported labour and paying poverty wages


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 4, 2021)

The food shortages I'm concerned about is the inability for some families to afford to  feed their kids properly on a daily basis.


----------



## Yossarian (Jul 4, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> The food shortages I'm concerned about is the inability for some families to afford to  feed their kids properly on a daily basis.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jul 4, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> I just read a lot.



Project meat peaks again


----------



## bimble (Jul 4, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Which food shortages are these?


This is the really scary bit.








						Lorry driver shortage threatens Haribo sweets
					

The German confectionery giant is struggling to get supplies of Goldbears and Tangfastics to UK shops.



					www.bbc.co.uk
				



I think they're the people who make the fizzy cola bottle sweets in which case this is serious. Cement and tinned tomatoes meh.


----------



## bimble (Jul 4, 2021)

But seriously for a tiny moment, if it were true that say tinned tomatoes, or any other basic commodity, were to double in price the Guardianista Remoaners like myself wouldn't even notice would we.


----------



## MrSki (Jul 4, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Which food shortages are these?


The ones when you go down Sainsbury's and there are empty shelves or freezers. I know it is not a major concern to you as you are abroad but I have seen the empty shelves in the fresh veg section & I love me petit pois & could not even get big fat fucking peas.


----------



## Supine (Jul 4, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> The food shortages I'm concerned about is the inability for some families to afford to  feed their kids properly on a daily basis.



So fishermen then


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 4, 2021)

bimble said:


> But seriously for a tiny moment, if it were true that say tinned tomatoes, or any other basic commodity, were to double in price the Guardianista Remoaners like myself wouldn't even notice would we.


Gov rationing via apps in September. First cases of cannibalism reported just before Christmas. Can't anyone save us!?


----------



## bimble (Jul 4, 2021)

MrSki said:


> The ones when you go down Sainsbury's and there are empty shelves or freezers. I know it is not a major concern to you as you are abroad but I have seen the empty shelves in the fresh veg section & I love me petit pois & could not even get big fat fucking peas.


Both of my local big supermarkets have put little plastic signs around the place saying sorry about the gaps we are doing our best etc. Neither of them mention Brexit but then they wouldn't want to piss off 52% of their customers would they.


----------



## bimble (Jul 4, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> Gov rationing via apps in September. First cases of cannibalism reported just before Christmas. Can't anyone save us!?


It's not even 8 o'clock on a sunday morning do try to calm down. I was only saying that price rises in basic commodities won't hurt people like me.


----------



## Spymaster (Jul 4, 2021)

MrSki said:


> The ones when you go down Sainsbury's and there are empty shelves or freezers. I know it is not a major concern to you as you are abroad but I have seen the empty shelves in the fresh veg section & I love me petit pois & could not even get big fat fucking peas.





bimble said:


> Both of my local big supermarkets have put little plastic signs around the place saying sorry about the gaps we are doing our best etc. Neither of them mention Brexit but then they wouldn't want to piss off 52% of their customers would they.



You’ll likely find that the delivery lorries had a flat tyre that day and if you went back the following day the shelves and freezers would be full again. Either that or Brexit is causing micro-climates of food shortages specifically in areas of remoaner density, because all of the shops and supermarkets around here are stocked just fine.


----------



## bimble (Jul 4, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> You’ll likely find that the delivery lorries had a flat tyre that day and if you went back the following day the shelves and freezers would be full again. Either that or Brexit is causing micro-climates of food shortages specifically in areas of remoaner density, because all of the shops and supermarkets around here are stocked just fine.


Do you think they are all lying about the whole lorry driver thing? It is true that if there's no peas on Monday there probably will be peas on Wednesday, its just not what we're used to.








						Government told UK faces summer of disruption to food supplies | ITV News
					

Supermarkets, farmers and wholesalers say the situation has reached crisis point, writes ITV News Business and Economics Editor Joel Hills. | ITV National News




					www.itv.com
				



Maybe they are all making it up because they're all Remoaners who hate lorry drivers /peas.


----------



## Spymaster (Jul 4, 2021)

bimble said:


> Do you think they are all lying about the whole lorry driver thing? It is true that if there's no peas on Monday there probably will be peas on Wednesday, its just not what we're used to.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I think any current disruption is likely to be short term, minimal, and as much covid related as Brexit fuelled. Also that it's an opportunity to train lots of British HGV drivers and pay them properly. Give me a shout about "food shortages" when shops are genuinely empty, rather than because they don't have enough chewy sweets this weekend, or Sainsbury's in Leatherhead had their Champagne delivery delayed at Dover.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jul 4, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> It’s high time British tourists put on the big boy pants and accepted that when in France they may have to meet French people.



Oh god why would you want to do that


----------



## Dogsauce (Jul 4, 2021)

I’ve seen a few empty shelves in food places but nothing that seems a trend - it’s building materials that are fucked, probably due to high demand post-lockdown rather than Brexit. Everyone I speak to in the trade think‘s it’s gone insane, prices nearly tripling on some raw materials, some stuff with lead times measured in months, can’t do jobs because you can’t get hold of what you need. No-one can believe there isn’t a big fuss about it on the news, but I guess it’s not a priority for media types more worried about pet passports etc.

We’ve postponed a big job at school due to costs because of this, kids will have to wait another year to have half decent toilets.


----------



## andysays (Jul 4, 2021)

I had to go to a couple of different shops before I could find my normal brand of toothpaste last week

#Brexitageddon


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jul 4, 2021)

andysays said:


> I had to go to a couple of different shops before I could find my normal brand of toothpaste last week
> 
> #Brexitageddon



Aubergines are an occasional rarity around here. Some weeks haven't been able to pick em up at all


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jul 4, 2021)

Plenty of peas in my local Sainsbury’s yesterday, but no skinny fries, the kids have to make do with the healthier chunky chips.


----------



## andysays (Jul 4, 2021)

Dogsauce said:


> I’ve seen a few empty shelves in food places but nothing that seems a trend - it’s building materials that are fucked, probably due to high demand post-lockdown rather than Brexit. Everyone I speak to in the trade think‘s it’s gone insane, prices nearly tripling on some raw materials, some stuff with lead times measured in months, can’t do jobs because you can’t get hold of what you need. No-one can believe there isn’t a big fuss about it on the news, but I guess it’s not a priority for media types more worried about pet passports etc.
> 
> We’ve postponed a big job at school due to costs because of this, kids will have to wait another year to have half decent toilets.


As I understand it, there is still a backlog in building material supplies as a result of the Suez Canal being blocked.

This attempt (not you) to blame Brexit for *everything*, including things that would have gone largely unnoticed pre-Brexit, is getting a bit ridiculous now.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 4, 2021)

MrSki said:


> The ones when you go down Sainsbury's and there are empty shelves or freezers. I know it is not a major concern to you as you are abroad but I have seen the empty shelves in the fresh veg section & I love me petit pois & could not even get big fat fucking peas.


Before you assume what is and what  isnt a major concern to me  as I am abroad can I just remind you that I was simply just asking you a question?


----------



## Spymaster (Jul 4, 2021)

Dogsauce said:


> I’ve seen a few empty shelves in food places but nothing that seems a trend - it’s building materials that are fucked, probably due to high demand post-lockdown rather than Brexit. Everyone I speak to in the trade think‘s it’s gone insane, prices nearly tripling on some raw materials, some stuff with lead times measured in months, can’t do jobs because you can’t get hold of what you need. No-one can believe there isn’t a big fuss about it on the news, but I guess it’s not a priority for media types more worried about pet passports etc.
> 
> We’ve postponed a big job at school due to costs because of this, kids will have to wait another year to have half decent toilets.



It does get reported but because, as you say, it hasn't been seized on by the Guardianista crowd as being Brexit related, we don't hear about it much on these threads. So the shortage of building materials is due to increased demand coming out of lockdown, production issues overseas caused by severe weather, and the global container shortage; whereas the frozen peas/Haribo disaster is another Brexit failure!


----------



## Spymaster (Jul 4, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Plenty of peas in my local Sainsbury’s yesterday, but no skinny fries, the kids have to make do with the healthier chunky chips.



Mrs Spy made keema peas yesterday but Morrisons had no Birds Eye petit pois. She had to use Morrison's own garden peas instead.

Fucking ruined the dish


----------



## bimble (Jul 4, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Give me a shout about "food shortages" when shops are genuinely empty


Genuinely empty ? as in.. just no food in them at all? that would be inconvenient. Don't think I'll be giving you a shout at that point I'll be defending my squirrel collection from the roving bands of people like you from London.


----------



## Maggot (Jul 4, 2021)

andysays said:


> As I understand it, there is still a backlog in building material supplies as a result of the Suez Canal being blocked.
> 
> This attempt (not you) to blame Brexit for *everything*, including things that would have gone largely unnoticed pre-Brexit, is getting a bit ridiculous now.


Whereas the attempt by you and some others to deny any of the problems caused by Brexit is perfectly reasonable.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 4, 2021)

Now, when my Mrs starts to round on me for forgetting various items from the supermarket I can show her this thread and ‘prove’ that in fact I hadn’t forgotten at all but it was caused by the great brexit food famine.

I used to think this thread was utter garbage, but its materially improved my life. Cheers all!


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 4, 2021)

Maggot said:


> Whereas the attempt by you and some others to deny any of the problems caused by Brexit is perfectly reasonabl



Noughties: Driving/HGV = semi/skilled work
SE EU economic migrant surge: Driving/HGV = £10 an hour
Post Brexit: as you were, madam.

 Its  a labour market response to restrctions caused by decade long poverty wages practices by employers:


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 4, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Mrs Spy made keema peas yesterday but Morrisons had no Birds Eye petit pois. She had to use Morrison's own garden peas instead.
> 
> Fucking ruined the dish


If only the UK climate was suitable for growing Birds Eye peas.....


----------



## bimble (Jul 4, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> Noughties: Driving/HGV = semi/skilled work
> SE EU economic migrant surge: Driving/HGV = £10 an hour
> Post Brexit: as you were, madam.
> 
> Its  a labour market response to restrctions on decade long poverty wages practices by employers:


You really think the government won't just add lorry driver to the growing list of 'shortage occupations' like fruit & veg pickers etc which are exempt from the new immigration rules . Cos they will.


----------



## andysays (Jul 4, 2021)

Maggot said:


> Whereas the attempt by you and some others to deny any of the problems caused by Brexit is perfectly reasonable.


Except I haven't actually done that.

Brexit clearly *has* resulted in various problems, some of which are almost inevitable when one country leaves a large trading block it's been part of for decades, and loads more which have been caused not by Brexit itself but by the inept way it has been negotiated and delivered by the government, and the lack of proper planning and organisation by employers to deal with issues it was likely to throw up.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 4, 2021)

andysays said:


> Except I haven't actually done that.
> 
> Brexit clearly *has* resulted in various problems, some of which are almost inevitable when one country leaves a large trading block it's been part of for decades, and loads more which have been caused not by Brexit itself but by the inept way it has been negotiated and delivered by the government, and the lack of proper planning and organisation by employers to deal with issues it was likely to throw up.


Yes it's all been rather emetic


----------



## Steel Icarus (Jul 4, 2021)

I'm getting a massive fruit and veg box with all local produce in it delivered weekly, and Jack's round the corner has 60% British stuff, so I'm not worried about shortages tbh.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jul 4, 2021)

S☼I said:


> I'm getting a massive fruit and veg box with all local produce in it delivered weekly, and Jack's round the corner has 60% British stuff, so I'm not worried about shortages tbh.




Yeah, Amy Lou's is overflowing with produce, better quality and cheaper than the supermarket.


----------



## MrSki (Jul 4, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Before you assume what is and what  isnt a major concern to me  as I am abroad can I just remind you that I was simply just asking you a question?


Sorry if my reply came across as patronising. 

It was just a simple example of the problems of a lack of HGV drivers will have. I am sure that no-one will starve & people can take the piss all they like about not been able to get what you previously could expect to be stocked. 

Just a benefit of Brexit I suppose.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 4, 2021)

MrSki said:


> Just a benefit of Brexit I suppose.



Talking of which, here is another one.

Pledging to take the opportunity to review public procurement rules - one of the major benefits of Brexit - to ensure that ‘social value’: jobs, tax revenues, skills and even the demands and requirement of an industrial strategy are fully taken into account when spending public money is important. This could even open up the question of state aid for critically important sectors.









						Keir Starmer takes on Tories with ‘buy British’ economic plan
					

Buoyant Labour sets out post-Brexit vision promising that more public contracts will go to UK companies




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## andysays (Jul 4, 2021)

MrSki said:


> Sorry if my reply came across as patronising.
> 
> It was just a simple example of the problems of a lack of HGV drivers will have. I am sure that no-one will starve & people can take the piss all they like about not been able to get what you previously could expect to be stocked.
> 
> Just a benefit of Brexit I suppose.


So *why* is there now this apparent lack of HGV drivers?

Is this an inevitable consequence of Brexit, or are the reasons perhaps a little more complicated than that?


----------



## MrSki (Jul 4, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Talking of which, here is another one.
> 
> Pledging to take the opportunity to review public procurement rules - one of the major benefits of Brexit - to ensure that ‘social value’: jobs, tax revenues, skills and even the demands and requirement of an industrial strategy are fully taken into account when spending public money is important. This could even open up the question of state aid for critically important sectors.
> 
> ...


Slight problem being Starmer is the leader of HM loyal opposition.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 4, 2021)

MrSki said:


> Slight problem being Starmer is the leader of HM loyal opposition.


He still reminds me of the Camp manager in Hi De Hi


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 4, 2021)

MrSki said:


> Slight problem being Starmer is the leader of HM loyal opposition.



One of the tasks of which is to set out a post covid/post Brexit economic plan. Do you support a review of procurement rules and an emphasis on social value when making spending decisions (something EU procurement rules sought to undermine)?


----------



## Ax^ (Jul 4, 2021)

.


----------



## MrSki (Jul 4, 2021)

andysays said:


> So *why* is there now this apparent lack of HGV drivers?
> 
> Is this an inevitable consequence of Brexit, or are the reasons perhaps a little more complicated than that?


You tell me. 

Have they all retired at the same time or re-trained as M15 operatives? 

I don't know but await you complicated reasoning.


----------



## Ax^ (Jul 4, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Talking of which, here is another one.
> 
> Pledging to take the opportunity to review public procurement rules - one of the major benefits of Brexit - to ensure that ‘social value’: jobs, tax revenues, skills and even the demands and requirement of an industrial strategy are fully taken into account when spending public money is important. This could even open up the question of state aid for critically important sectors.
> 
> ...


ya fucking right unless it more crony tory mates


look up 10 ten tory donators


----------



## bimble (Jul 4, 2021)

andysays said:


> So *why* is there now this apparent lack of HGV drivers?
> 
> Is this an inevitable consequence of Brexit, or are the reasons perhaps a little more complicated than that?


Of course not inevitable, there were a million possible brexits its just we are only getting this one. I really think that brexit or not brexit is a much less important thing than who it is that gets to run the country.


----------



## andysays (Jul 4, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Talking of which, here is another one.
> 
> Pledging to take the opportunity to review public procurement rules - one of the major benefits of Brexit - to ensure that ‘social value’: jobs, tax revenues, skills and even the demands and requirement of an industrial strategy are fully taken into account when spending public money is important. This could even open up the question of state aid for critically important sectors.
> 
> ...


I don't have any faith in Starmer to deliver any of that, but it is at least interesting that it can now be proposed, whereas pre-Brexit it would have been effectively ruled out long before it got to the stage of a policy announcement.


----------



## MrSki (Jul 4, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> One of the tasks of which is to set out a post covid/post Brexit economic plan. Do you support a review of procurement rules and an emphasis on social value when making spending decisions (something EU procurement rules sought to undermine)?


I would love to see an open procurement system which embraces social values. Can't see it happening any time soon though.


----------



## ska invita (Jul 4, 2021)

andysays said:


> So *why* is there now this apparent lack of HGV drivers?


was posted elsewhere (cant find now) that its supposedly down to a massive increase in moving goods about brought on by online retail, happening not just in the UK 
this link suggests the same for the US


			https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2018/05/28/america-has-a-massive-truck-driver-shortage-heres-why-few-want-an-80000-job/
		


??


----------



## andysays (Jul 4, 2021)

MrSki said:


> You tell me.
> 
> Have they all retired at the same time or re-trained as M15 operatives?
> 
> I don't know but await you complicated reasoning.


This just sums up the utter lack of thinking behind your position.

All your responses are simply knee-jerk anti-Leaver nonsense and you appear to be literally unable to deal with any of the issues.

It's possible to have a reasonable discussion with people with different opinions, but you have demonstrated yourself to be a complete waste of time.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 4, 2021)

andysays said:


> I don't have any faith in Starmer to deliver any of that, but it is at least interesting that it can now be proposed, whereas pre-Brexit it would have been effectively ruled out long before it got to the stage of a policy announcement.



Precisely. I expect loads of comments from people saying can’t/won’t happen. Fair enough, that’s an entirely legitimate analysis.

But surely everyone can agree that the fact that a space is now opened up, where this type of debate can be had and these ideas seriously argued for is a significant one and directly intervene with the economic orthodoxy of the last 40 years?


----------



## ska invita (Jul 4, 2021)

BBC says:
The Road Haulage Association believes there is currently a shortfall of about 60,000 drivers.
It estimates that some 30,000 HGV driving tests did not take place last year because of the Covid pandemic.

Kate Shoesmith, deputy chief executive of the Recruitment and Employment Confederation, told the BBC last month that before the pandemic, many lorry drivers in the UK had been nationals of EU countries, particularly Romania and Bulgaria.
They stayed in the UK after the Brexit referendum, but started leaving when coronavirus struck, she said.
"They have either sourced work in their home countries or they feel it's not right to return to the UK, either because of Brexit or the pandemic," Ms Shoesmith added.


----------



## andysays (Jul 4, 2021)

ska invita said:


> was posted elsewhere (cant find now) that its supposedly down to a massive increase in moving goods about brought on by online retail, happening not just in the UK
> this link suggests the same for the US
> 
> 
> ...


I don't know if that's the whole story, but that at least has absolutely nothing to do with Brexit.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 4, 2021)

MrSki said:


> I would love to see an open procurement system which embraces social values. Can't see it happening any time soon though.



To suggest the British political class, and especially Starmer, are incapable of seizing the opportunity opened up is a legitimate point of view. But Biden is demonstrating that - without the fetters of the EU - it’s entirely possible to imagine how an infrastructure plan ground in social value could work - and for the left - how it can be argued and fought for, as this wheel on the Biden plan shows:


----------



## MrSki (Jul 4, 2021)

andysays said:


> This just sums up the utter lack of thinking behind your position.
> 
> All your responses are simply knee-jerk anti-Leaver nonsense and you appear to be literally unable to deal with any of the issues.
> 
> It's possible to have a reasonable discussion with people with different opinions, but you have demonstrated yourself to be a complete waste of time.


Sorry but you keep banging on about the shortage of HGV drivers not being completely due to Brexit & I ask you to explain why and then you reply with this bollocks.

I asked you in a reasonable way to explain the complicated reasons behind the shortage of HGV drivers. Would still like your answer. 

My responses are how I find the UK post Brexit. 

I hope everything turns out to be wonderful because I fucking live here & want to live in a country where things are as good as possible for everyone. Just not seeing it that is all.


----------



## Cerv (Jul 4, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Talking of which, here is another one.
> 
> Pledging to take the opportunity to review public procurement rules - one of the major benefits of Brexit - to ensure that ‘social value’: jobs, tax revenues, skills and even the demands and requirement of an industrial strategy are fully taken into account when spending public money is important. This could even open up the question of state aid for critically important sectors.
> 
> ...


Odd that the first example listed in the article is production of passports, which the UK government contracted in 2018 to a Dutch co rather than De La Rue here. 
You might recall that at the time this was a controversial decision precisely because so many other EU countries do keep their own passport printing domestic. Germany, France, Italy, and others. And entirely within EU rules to do so. 
Can happily support Labour’s proposal here, and IIRC correctly they said the same 3 years ago. But not take that one as a benefit of Brexit, when it was a UK government choice not conclusion before. 

But other examples, sure. if they can thread the needle of state aid and fair competition rules in all our post-Brexit trade agreements.


----------



## MrSki (Jul 4, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> To suggest the British political class, and especially Starmer, are incapable of seizing the opportunity opened up is a legitimate point of view. But Biden is demonstrating that - without the fetters of the EU - it’s entirely possible to imagine how an infrastructure plan ground in social value could work - and for the left - how it can be argued and fought for, as this wheel on the Biden plan shows:
> 
> View attachment 276748


Biden is in power though & Starmer isn't.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 4, 2021)

MrSki said:


> Biden is in power though & Starmer isn't.


Even if starmer was in power everything he says points to the conclusion that he is desperate to be seen as a safe pair of hands, so even if he was in power with a majority of eighty he would do nothing to rock the boat


----------



## two sheds (Jul 4, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Precisely. I expect loads of comments from people saying can’t/won’t happen. Fair enough, that’s an entirely legitimate analysis.
> 
> But surely everyone can agree that the fact that a space is now opened up, where this type of debate can be had and these ideas seriously argued for is a significant one and directly intervene with the economic orthodoxy of the last 40 years?


Isn't it what Preston council has been doing for a while now, and pretty similar to what Corbyn was proposing? 

I've also just seen a story that the EU is objecting to the UK's windpower programme on the basis that we're discriminating in favour of UK manufacturers, so going against trade agreements. So there may still be a problem with it post Brexit - particularly if we're signing agreements anywhere that allow companies to sue us for loss of trade.


----------



## ska invita (Jul 4, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Isn't it what Preston council has been doing for a while now, and pretty similar to what Corbyn was proposing?
> 
> I've also just seen a story that the EU is objecting to the UK's windpower programme on the basis that we're discriminating in favour of UK manufacturers, so going against trade agreements. So there may still be a problem with it post Brexit - particularly if we're signing agreements anywhere that allow companies to sue us for loss of trade.


yeah just posted about that here








						Keir Starmer's time is up
					

It doesn't really matter who replaces Starmer at this point. The point right now is to punish Starmer and his ideological supporters. With him gone there would be an election and the membership would vote on who is the best of the candidates who steps up. The winner of that contest, if they have...




					www.urban75.net


----------



## Dystopiary (Jul 4, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Either that or Brexit is causing micro-climates of food shortages specifically in areas of *remoaner* density, because all of the shops and supermarkets around here are stocked just fine.


It's _remourner_ now. We're in mourning.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 4, 2021)

Dystopiary said:


> It's _remourner_ now. We're in mourning.


In mourning again


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jul 4, 2021)

ska invita said:


> BBC says:
> The Road Haulage Association believes there is currently a shortfall of about 60,000 drivers.
> It estimates that some 30,000 HGV driving tests did not take place last year because of the Covid pandemic.
> 
> ...




What we saw pre-Covid/Brexit was the laybys on trunk roads up and down the country with Romanian and Bulgarian truckers living out of their trucks, not just sleeping in the cab for a few days of a trip, but months at a time, cooking on stoves in their trailers, pissing and shitting in the bushes, not a great way for anyone to live, but it is work that they can't get back at home. They were paid by Romanian/Bulgarian companies at Romanian/Bulgarian rates which of course massively undercuts any UK driver's wages, which may go quite some way to explain why there is such a shortage of UK drivers now. One other thing that we saw with the Romanian/Bulgarian drivers is the number plates on the tractors and trailers never matched, the police never bothered as they knew it would be a massive ball-ache with interpreters and so forth, makes you wonder what other parts of motoring law was being ignored too.


----------



## ska invita (Jul 4, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> What we saw pre-Covid/Brexit was the laybys on trunk roads up and down the country with Romanian and Bulgarian truckers living out of their trucks, not just sleeping in the cab for a few days of a trip, but months at a time, cooking on stoves in their trailers, pissing and shitting in the bushes, not a great way for anyone to live, but it is work that they can't get back at home. They were paid by Romanian/Bulgarian companies at Romanian/Bulgarian rates which of course massively undercuts any UK driver's wages, which may go quite some way to explain why there is such a shortage of UK drivers now. One other thing that we saw with the Romanian/Bulgarian drivers is the number plates on the tractors and trailers never matched, the police never bothered as they knew it would be a massive ball-ache with interpreters and so forth, makes you wonder what other parts of motoring law was being ignored too.


you are very watchful!


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jul 4, 2021)

ska invita said:


> you are very watchful!




I do a lot of miles and most of the time I do keep my eyes open.


----------



## Spymaster (Jul 4, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> I do a lot of miles and most of the time I do keep my eyes open.



Wally.

Real men drive with their eyes closed at least half the time.


----------



## platinumsage (Jul 4, 2021)

Boo-hoo for the haulage industry. They've had since June 2016 to train and recruit UK-based drivers. Perhaps they could: 1) start doing that now; 2) spend some of the money saved in not doing that previously on increasing wages to attract back some of the UK-based drivers we are told quit in their droves in recent years.


----------



## ska invita (Jul 4, 2021)

platinumsage said:


> Boo-hoo for the haulage industry. They've had since June 2016 to train and recruit UK-based drivers. Perhaps they could: 1) start doing that now; 2) spend some of the money saved in not doing that previously on increasing wages to attract back some of the UK-based drivers we are told quit in their droves in recent years.


"It estimates that some 30,000 HGV driving tests did not take place last year because of the Covid pandemic."


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 4, 2021)

ska invita said:


> "It estimates that some 30,000 HGV driving tests did not take place last year because of the Covid pandemic."


Still think platinumsage point stands


----------



## andysays (Jul 4, 2021)

ska invita said:


> "It estimates that some 30,000 HGV driving tests did not take place last year because of the Covid pandemic."


So that's 30,000 tests that didn't happen last year because of Covid, ie nothing to do with Brexit.

What about the previous four years they've had to prepare?

What about all the years of depending on cheaper Romanian and Bulgarian drivers, forced to work and live in the shitty conditions Bahnhof Strasse described above?

(And haven't we been through all this just the other day, either on this thread or another one?)


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 4, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Isn't it what Preston council has been doing for a while now, and pretty similar to what Corbyn was proposing?



Yes and yes and, which were built on the Mondragon and Cleveland models. It’s not a new idea at all. In essence it’s a fairly limited social democratic offer given the extent to which the pandemic requires a ‘big state’ approach.

But it’s one that, until Corbyn, wasn’t on the political radar and which under EU procurement rules were necessarily limited in the extent to which social value could be fully embedded.


----------



## platinumsage (Jul 4, 2021)

ska invita said:


> "It estimates that some 30,000 HGV driving tests did not take place last year because of the Covid pandemic."



That's why I said they should have started this in June 2016 when it became clear we were leaving the EU.


----------



## Maggot (Jul 4, 2021)

platinumsage said:


> That's why I said they should have started this in June 2016 when it became clear we were leaving the EU.


Started what? What sort of preparation should they have done?


----------



## platinumsage (Jul 4, 2021)

Maggot said:


> Started what? What sort of preparation should they have done?



Trained more drivers and improved pay and conditions. If they'd done that, they would have: 1) reduced the number of European drivers leaving following Brexit, and 2) retained and recruited more UK-based drivers in the last five years, further reducing the impacts of departing European drivers.


----------



## andysays (Jul 4, 2021)

This is an interesting video from a couple of years ago which has just popped up on my youtube suggestions. It talks about some of the issues facing truck drivers and explains from a driver's POV why the haulage industry was already in crisis back then, with a reported shortfall of 45,000 drivers.




TL;DR the wages are too low and the conditions are rubbish


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 4, 2021)

Maggot said:


> Started what? What sort of preparation should they have done?


Just a clue . In the unlikely scenario that you were in charge of an industry that has heavily relied on other countries training staff and you were not sure that this convenient supply of labour would always be there , would you a) do nothing b) try and make a case that this supply of labour be made a special case c) invest in recruitment training and staff retention in the country that you are based in d) post in urban


----------



## Maggot (Jul 4, 2021)

platinumsage said:


> Trained more drivers and improved pay and conditions. If they'd done that, they would have: 1) reduced the number of European drivers leaving following Brexit, and 2) retained and recruited more UK-based drivers in the last five years, further reducing the impacts of departing European drivers.


TBF they're not going to improve pay and conditions when there's people  from other countries prepared to do it for less. And as for training more drivers, you can't force people to become drivers!


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jul 4, 2021)

The sheer level of fuckery and what kind of magic brexit do we want coupled with some creative truths from Johnson et all means that few businesses were prepared on a large scale when Brexit day finally appeared


----------



## platinumsage (Jul 4, 2021)

Maggot said:


> TBF they're not going to improve pay and conditions when there's people  from other countries prepared to do it for less. And as for training more drivers, you can't force people to become drivers!



But they knew as of 24 June 2016 that their current supply of drivers from other countries would be drastically reduced, yet still they took no action. Sure you can't force people to become drivers, but it's a well-established fact in the business world that if you increase pay and improve conditions, you will have a bigger pool of willing people to recruit from.


----------



## bimble (Jul 4, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> They were paid by Romanian/Bulgarian companies at Romanian/Bulgarian rates which of course massively undercuts any UK driver's wages,


is that true ? I mean that they were employed by romanian / bulgarian companies these truck drivers who have gone away?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 4, 2021)

bimble said:


> is that true ? I mean that they were employed by romanian / bulgarian companies these truck drivers who have gone away?


You seem unsure what you mean.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jul 4, 2021)

bimble said:


> is that true ? I mean that they were employed by romanian / bulgarian companies these truck drivers who have gone away?




Yep. One of the joys of free movement is that you can live and work anywhere in the EU, so Bahnhof Corp can employ bimble in London, then send her to Spain to work for a year or so, all the while employed, paid etc. back in London as before. Shipping in cheap labour and pushing down costs for business is kind of the raison d'etre of the EU and why they were so keen to get Romania and Bulgaria on board and why they are eying up Serbia and the other Balkan states.


----------



## Raheem (Jul 4, 2021)

bimble said:


> is that true ? I mean that they were employed by romanian / bulgarian companies these truck drivers who have gone away?


I don't think it is. I think there's confusion going on between UK-based drivers who are EU citizens on the one hand, and EU-based drivers doing deliveries to the UK on the other.

The on the one hand drivers are the ones who have left.

It is true that EU rules allow people to be employed in one country and be actually based in another, but I don't believe this is or was a particular feature of the UK haulage industry.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 4, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Yep. One of the joys of free movement is that you can live and work anywhere in the EU, so Bahnhof Corp can employ bimble in London, then send her to Spain to work for a year or so, all the while employed, paid etc. back in London as before. Shipping in cheap labour and pushing down costs for business is kind of the raison d'etre of the EU and why they were so keen to get Romania and Bulgaria on board and why they are eying up Serbia and the other Balkan states.


Employ Bimble ?


----------



## bimble (Jul 4, 2021)

Raheem said:


> I don't think it is. I think there's confusion going on between UK-based drivers who are EU citizens on the one hand, and EU-based drivers doing deliveries to the UK on the other.
> 
> The on the one hand drivers are the ones who have left.


Maybe its true of some people, who came over here because they were sent over by their employers but it definitely doesn't work as a general explanation for what EU workers have been doing in the UK. Why would you bother coming to the UK from Bulgaria in order to work for Bulgarian wages it makes no sense at all, people came here to make UK wages, save up then go home and buy a house.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jul 4, 2021)

bimble said:


> Maybe its true of some people, who came over here because they were sent over by their employers but it definitely doesn't work as a general explanation for what EU workers have been doing in the UK. Why would you bother coming to the UK from Bulgaria in order to work for Bulgarian wages it makes no sense at all, people came here to make UK wages, save up and then go home and buy a house.




Because there was no work in Romania & Bulgaria.

Romania Trucking Ltd came to the UK and snaffled up contracts for trucking around the UK, sent their trucks and drivers over to fulfil them, as they were paying much lower wages than UK Trucking Ltd they could undercut the UK outfit every time. That left just specialist truckers/trucking firms like the one Frau Bahn worked for, trucks with cranes on and that kind of thing, general haulage went to the eastern outfits.


----------



## Ax^ (Jul 4, 2021)

So Brexit was for Truck drivers


but we did not train any new ones


----------



## bimble (Jul 4, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Because there was no work in Romania & Bulgaria.
> 
> Romania Trucking Ltd came to the UK and snaffled up contracts for trucking around the UK, sent their trucks and drivers over to fulfil them, as they were paying much lower wages than UK Trucking Ltd they could undercut the UK outfit every time. That left just specialist truckers/trucking firms like the one Frau Bahn worked for, trucks with cranes on and that kind of thing, general haulage went to the eastern outfits.


Romania Trucking Co did not have to pay UK wages not even UK minimum wage?


----------



## andysays (Jul 4, 2021)

bimble said:


> Maybe its true of some people, who came over here because they were sent over by their employers but it definitely doesn't work as a general explanation for what EU workers have been doing in the UK. Why would you bother coming to the UK from Bulgaria in order to work for Bulgarian wages it makes no sense at all, people came here to make UK wages, save up then go home and buy a house.


I don't know what proportion of eg Bulgarian drivers working in the UK  were employed by Bulgarian companies and how many by UK companies.

I would imagine though that most of the ones working across Europe, doing very long deliveries which ended in the UK would be employed by companies in their country of origin, and that those employed by companies here in the UK would work mostly within the UK, rather than across Europe.

ETA although Bahnhof Strasse seems to being saying otherwise, and I'm happy to defer to his insider knowledge


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jul 4, 2021)

bimble said:


> Romania Trucking Co did not have to pay UK wages not even UK minimum wage?




Of course not, they didn't employ anyone in the UK.


----------



## bimble (Jul 4, 2021)

Romanian official minimum wage is £2.36 an hour i just learned. If those truckers were delivering my burrata to Waitrose for that then the whole industry will be fucked now but i just don't think they were. They'd just leave and get a better paid job, shortage of drivers has been going on a while hasn't it.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 4, 2021)

andysays said:


> I don't know what proportion of eg Bulgarian drivers working in the UK  were employed by Bulgarian companies and how many by UK companies.
> 
> I would imagine though that most of the ones working across Europe, doing very long deliveries which ended in the UK would be employed by companies in their country of origin, and that those employed by companies here in the UK would work mostly within the UK, rather than across Europe.
> 
> ETA although Bahnhof Strasse seems to being saying otherwise, and I'm happy to defer to his insider knowledge


I suspect haulage drivers in the EU will be employed by companies in the countries from where their cargo originates, so drivers carrying oranges far more likely to be employed in Spain than bulgaria


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 4, 2021)

.


----------



## bimble (Jul 4, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> What possible connection does Waitrose burrata have to Romania?


Hello. We are talking about truck drivers, they pick up things like food and take them to places like shops, hth. As i said, this shortage is the one that is of most pressing concern to me.


----------



## klang (Jul 4, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> .


thanks for pointing us into the right direction.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 4, 2021)

bimble said:


> Hello. We are talking about truck drivers, they pick up things like food and take them to places like shops, hth. As i said, this shortage is the one that is of most pressing concern to me.


There is no burrata shortage. Now, being as burrata neither made in the UK nor in Romania where are you suggesting these drivers are employed? E2A just seen Bahnhof Strasse's post


----------



## Saul Goodman (Jul 4, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Because there was no work in Romania & Bulgaria.
> 
> Romania Trucking Ltd came to the UK and snaffled up contracts for trucking around the UK, sent their trucks and drivers over to fulfil them, as they were paying much lower wages than UK Trucking Ltd they could undercut the UK outfit every time. That left just specialist truckers/trucking firms like the one Frau Bahn worked for, trucks with cranes on and that kind of thing, general haulage went to the eastern outfits.


But Brexit! If Brexit hadn't happened the Romanian slaves would still be delivering your Avocado's!

It's a fallacy of conflation. There isn't a shortage of HGV drivers because Brexit. There's a shortage of HGV drivers because Covid, and because the EU created a situation where Romanian drivers could operate in the UK on half the wages of a UK driver. That's why there's a shortage of UK HGV drivers, not because Brexit.


----------



## andysays (Jul 4, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> I suspect haulage drivers in the EU will be employed by companies in the countries from where their cargo originates, so drivers carrying oranges far more likely to be employed in Spain than bulgaria


On one level that would certainly make sense, but I also suspect that if the Bulgarian drivers who will transport the oranges from Spain to eg the UK, can be employed in Bulgaria and therefore be paid lower wages than if they were employed in either Spain or the UK, that's the way it will be done in practice.


----------



## Maggot (Jul 4, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Shipping in cheap labour and pushing down costs for business is kind of the raison d'etre of the EU and why they were so keen to get Romania and Bulgaria on board and why they are eying up Serbia and the other Balkan states.


Not true at all. If that was the case why did Bulgaria and Romania not join the EU until 2007, a long time after it was formed?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 4, 2021)

Anyway there's a load of burrata available in the UK, just maybe people in Waitrose are buying more than usual. Certainly there's no shortage in m&s in dalston. it's like the bog roll nonsense last year, there was loads about if you bothered going to shops other than Tesco or Sainsbury's


----------



## andysays (Jul 4, 2021)

Maggot said:


> Not true at all. If that was the case why did Bulgaria and Romania not join the EU until 2007, a long time after it was formed?


----------



## gosub (Jul 4, 2021)

andysays said:


> Except I haven't actually done that.
> 
> Brexit clearly *has* resulted in various problems, some of which are almost inevitable when one country leaves a large trading block it's been part of for decades, and loads more which have been caused not by Brexit itself but by the inept way it has been negotiated and delivered by the government, and the lack of proper planning and organisation by employers to deal with issues it was likely to throw up.


tbf The government and Parliament should shoulder some blame with regards any deficiencies in planning and organisation by employers


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 4, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> I suspect haulage drivers in the EU will be employed by companies in the countries from where their cargo originates, so drivers carrying oranges far more likely to be employed in Spain than bulgaria


I know two long distance truck drivers from the bar  one works for a Portuguese firm the other a Spanish owned firm in Portugal . They are both paid local rates.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 4, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> I know two long distance truck drivers from the bar  one works for a Portuguese firm the other a Spanish owned firm in Portugal . They are both paid local rates.


Which is in line with my expectations tbh


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 4, 2021)

gosub said:


> tbf The government and Parliament should shoulder some blame with regards any deficiencies in planning and organisation by employers


Of course , I dont think anyone is defending the governmemt or the employers.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 4, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Anyway there's a load of burrata available in the UK, just maybe people in Waitrose are buying more than usual. Certainly there's no shortage in m&s in dalston. it's like the bog roll nonsense last year, there was loads about if you bothered going to shops other than Tesco or Sainsbury's


We still havent got down to the root of the UK pea shortage.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 4, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> We still havent got down to the root of the UK pea shortage.


Over the past fortnight I can tell you from personal observation there is no shortage of peas either garden or mushy in either North Yorkshire or north east Lincolnshire


----------



## Ax^ (Jul 4, 2021)

Yorkshire and Lincolnshire is hording the supply chain


----------



## andysays (Jul 4, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Over the past fortnight I can tell you from personal observation there is no shortage of peas either garden or mushy in either North Yorkshire or north east Lincolnshire


No shortage in my freezer, including plenty from the allotment with zero food miles and no dependency on the haulage industry


----------



## prunus (Jul 4, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> We still havent got down to the root of the UK pea shortage.



I think there are clues…

Recipe - Pea and Burrata Salad


----------



## two sheds (Jul 4, 2021)

Satnavs also made it much easier for foreign drivers to make deliveries over here.


----------



## andysays (Jul 4, 2021)

Maggot said:


> TBF they're not going to improve pay and conditions when there's people  from other countries prepared to do it for less. And as for training more drivers, you can't force people to become drivers!


One of the things mentioned in the video I posted is that when drivers from Poland started working over here for less than the then going rate, they soon realised what was going on and began (quite rightly) to demand more (I'm guessing these are drivers employed by UK companies, though maybe not). The employers then starting to bring in Rumanians to undercut the established Brits and the Poles, until they too began to demand more.

In other words, using people  from other countries prepared to do it for less only works as a very limited short term measure, you can't successfully build your whole industry around it, as the haulage industry should have started to recognise even before Brexit kicked in.


----------



## two sheds (Jul 4, 2021)

Was talking to a truck driver last night. Another reason it's getting less popular are the truck "driver management systems". They're continually rated on accelerator and brake and economy driving (etc.) and in one company at least if they don't do well they get fined. 

Isn't that a surprise - they could just as easily have made it a reward based system but no lets stress the drivers out even more.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 4, 2021)

Excellent thread by Aaron Bastani (of all people) on planet remain and it’s politics re social value and union pay rates in public procurement when proposed by the left:


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 4, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Excellent thread by Aaron Bastani (of all people) on planet remain and it’s politics re social value and union pay rates in public procurement when proposed by the left:



Just read that on Twitter, surprisingly good


----------



## Dogsauce (Jul 4, 2021)

andysays said:


> As I understand it, there is still a backlog in building material supplies as a result of the Suez Canal being blocked.
> 
> This attempt (not you) to blame Brexit for *everything*, including things that would have gone largely unnoticed pre-Brexit, is getting a bit ridiculous now.


I think it’s just demand, can’t see how a week-long break in the supply chain would take months to correct, plenty of stuff comes in via other routes (timber from Northern Europe, and still some stuff made here).  People haven’t been able/willing to get work done during lockdown, also time spent furloughed or working from home gives you time to contemplate your surroundings and scheme what you would do to change it, or identify the need for a home office / garden room for wfh Etc.

Apparently the cost of building projects has increased massively, here in the south-west supposedly by 27%. We can’t even get anyone to quote for our flat refurbishment, people are booking work in for next spring. What we will be able to afford to do is likely to be less than planned which is a bit of a shitter.


----------



## two sheds (Jul 4, 2021)

Neighbour said that scaffolding boards have gone from £4 to £20+ each. He didn't speculate on cause.


----------



## andysays (Jul 4, 2021)

Dogsauce said:


> I think it’s just demand, can’t see how a week-long break in the supply chain would take months to correct, plenty of stuff comes in via other routes (timber from Northern Europe, and still some stuff made here).  People haven’t been able/willing to get work done during lockdown, also time spent furloughed or working from home gives you time to contemplate your surroundings and scheme what you would do to change it, or identify the need for a home office / garden room for wfh Etc.
> 
> Apparently the cost of building projects has increased massively, here in the south-west supposedly by 27%. We can’t even get anyone to quote for our flat refurbishment, people are booking work in for next spring. What we will be able to afford to do is likely to be less than planned which is a bit of a shitter.


Yeah, I think I misremembered that, or at least exaggerated its significance.

Spymaster linked to a story discussing various causes and the Suez thing wasn't mentioned.


----------



## Badgers (Jul 4, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Neighbour said that scaffolding boards have gone from £4 to £20+ each. He didn't speculate on cause.


Must be Covid of course


----------



## bimble (Jul 4, 2021)

Dogsauce said:


> I think it’s just demand, can’t see how a week-long break in the supply chain would take months to correct, plenty of stuff comes in via other routes (timber from Northern Europe, and still some stuff made here).  People haven’t been able/willing to get work done during lockdown, also time spent furloughed or working from home gives you time to contemplate your surroundings and scheme what you would do to change it, or identify the need for a home office / garden room for wfh Etc.
> 
> Apparently the cost of building projects has increased massively, here in the south-west supposedly by 27%. We can’t even get anyone to quote for our flat refurbishment, people are booking work in for next spring. What we will be able to afford to do is likely to be less than planned which is a bit of a shitter.


Yeah definitely mostly that, absolutely bonkers time in the Uk for building work and materials of all kinds because everyone who can afford to do it has either moved house or is doing to stuff to their existing one, which is completely covid.

Then this as well which has been a major impact recently, much more than the boat that got stuck in suez:








						Yantian port to resume full operations on 24 June
					

Yantian Port is set to resume full operations on 24 June over a month after measures to combat a Covid-19 outbreak sharply reduced capacity resulting in major delays to global container shipping.




					www.seatrade-maritime.com
				



i find it interesting because it shows how dependent pretty much everything is on some port in china now.
That isn't the only one but the biggest of the Chinese ports that have been shut down as they try to contain outbreaks there, so nothing moved basically for weeks, all the widgets were just sat there.


----------



## Dogsauce (Jul 4, 2021)

platinumsage said:


> But they knew as of 24 June 2016 that their current supply of drivers from other countries would be drastically reduced, yet still they took no action. Sure you can't force people to become drivers, but it's a well-established fact in the business world that if you increase pay and improve conditions, you will have a bigger pool of willing people to recruit from.


They didn’t know that at all, the ‘flavour’ of Brexit and what kind of limitations there would be on Labour wasn’t really determined until May got kicked out and el fuckchops took over running the show. Brexit wasn’t sold as a ‘hard Brexit’ at all and at least initially companies expected at there would be the single market ongoing. Half of it still seems to be all up in the air, how were organisations supposed to prepare?

 It’s just market forces now, wage corrections reflect this, all part of the libertarians’ plan. Hoping a few more wage rises might piss those guys off.


----------



## MrSki (Jul 4, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Neighbour said that scaffolding boards have gone from £4 to £20+ each. He didn't speculate on cause.


Surely scaffolding boards are down to Covid.  

ETA sorry Badgers has already done that one.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jul 4, 2021)

Maggot said:


> Not true at all. If that was the case why did Bulgaria and Romania not join the EU until 2007, a long time after it was formed?



Not sure the USSR would have been too happy for them to have been signed up in the 70’s...


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 4, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Not sure the USSR would have been too happy for them to have been signed up in the 70’s...


The EU only sprang into existence in the 1990s


----------



## bimble (Jul 4, 2021)

LORD FROST wrote a thing yesterday about the protocol. This is the key bit.
_"To simply say “the protocol must be implemented in full” is to take a theological approach that is frozen in time and does not deal with the reality that now exists." _

Eh? You know that contract which i signed that i wrote together with you, please stop trying to make me stick to that contract you bastards who could possibly have forseen that it was not going to work out very well for me. Thanks for being nice about the sausages last week but that's nothing we need you to just bin the whole contract thing now thanks.









						David Frost and Brandon Lewis: We must find a new balance in how NI protocol is operated
					

To simply say it must be implemented in full does not deal with the reality that now exists




					www.irishtimes.com


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 4, 2021)

Gov can now take back into public ownership water and Royal Mail - both seem to be urgent cases.


----------



## bimble (Jul 4, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> Gov can now take back into public ownership water and Royal Mail - both seem to be urgent cases.


yeah they'll definitely do that cos they can. The Eu was not the real problem the real problem is brits love voting for people like Johnson.


----------



## brogdale (Jul 4, 2021)

bimble said:


> yeah they'll definitely do that cos they can. The Eu was not the real problem the real problem is brits love voting for people like Johnson.


Agreed, but the 'real problem' is surely that when Brits vote they are offered an effective 'choice' between differently badged versions of neoliberal, consolidator state parties, none of whom would even contemplate re-nationalising the industries that they've privatised.


----------



## Saul Goodman (Jul 4, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Agreed, but the 'real problem' is surely that when Brits vote they are offered an effective 'choice' between differently badged versions of neoliberal, consolidator state parties, none of whom would even contemplate re-nationalising the industries that they've privatised.


Hobson's choice.
Would you like sand in your Vaseline.


----------



## Raheem (Jul 4, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Agreed, but the 'real problem' is surely that when Brits vote they are offered an effective 'choice' between differently badged versions of neoliberal, consolidator state parties, none of whom would even contemplate re-nationalising the industries that they've privatised.


TBF, one of them did, in recent history.


----------



## Supine (Jul 4, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Agreed, but the 'real problem' is surely that when Brits vote they are offered an effective 'choice' between differently badged versions of neoliberal, consolidator state parties, none of whom would even contemplate re-nationalising the industries that they've privatised.



Nah, they have a choice between a party on the right and a niche party on the left who concentrate on infighting and the working class only. The left leaning middle class are homeless as nobody targets them properly. Very much IMHO


----------



## Saul Goodman (Jul 4, 2021)

Supine said:


> Nah, they have a choice between a party on the right and a niche party on the left *who concentrate on infighting*


.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jul 4, 2021)

Supine said:


> Nah, they have a choice between a party on the right and a niche party on the left who concentrate on infighting and the working class only. The left leaning middle class are homeless as nobody targets them properly. Very much IMHO




The gravitate to to the Lib Dems, but once they realise what a waste of a vote that is they go Tory.


----------



## bimble (Jul 4, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Agreed, but the 'real problem' is surely that when Brits vote they are offered an effective 'choice' between differently badged versions of neoliberal, consolidator state parties, none of whom would even contemplate re-nationalising the industries that they've privatised.


idk, maybe its the same all over but can't help feeling right now that this country is particularly enthusiastic about electing the most monumentally craven & incompetent idiots available.
I think it's something to do with how deeply stratisfied we are, that Eton accent people confuse it with competence, i don't think it's as bad elsewhere in other countries.


----------



## brogdale (Jul 4, 2021)

bimble said:


> idk, maybe its the same all over but can't help feeling right now that this country is particularly enthusiastic about electing the most monumentally craven & incompetent idiots available.
> I think it's something to do with how deeply stratisfied we are, that Eton accent people confuse it with competence, i don't think it's as bad elsewhere in other countries.


Yeah, I know it feels like that, but always worth remembering that, even in their 2019 electoral triumph, of the *47,587,254* UK citizens registered to vote, only *13,966,454* actually voted for the bunch of cunts.


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 4, 2021)

Like the railways right.


----------



## bimble (Jul 4, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> Like the railways right.


Yeah, if there was a pandemic that made people stop using water and stop needing a postal service it might totally happen.


----------



## gosub (Jul 4, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Excellent thread by Aaron Bastani (of all people) on planet remain and it’s politics re social value and union pay rates in public procurement when proposed by the left:



Archive on 4 - Millions Like Us - BBC Sounds   found this well worth a listen


----------



## Saul Goodman (Jul 4, 2021)

bimble said:


> i don't think it's as bad elsewhere in other countries.


I think people tend to vote for the person they aspire to be. The UK want to be thick and rich. The USA want to be thick and rich. I haven't done much research into other countries.


----------



## Raheem (Jul 4, 2021)

Saul Goodman said:


> I think people tend to vote for the person they aspire to be. The UK want to be thick and rich. The USA want to be thick and rich. I haven't done much research into other countries.


The French must want to be clever, rich and a cunt.


----------



## brogdale (Jul 4, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> Like the railways right.


01/01/1948


----------



## Saul Goodman (Jul 4, 2021)

Raheem said:


> The French must want to be clever, rich and a cunt.


I'd settle for that. I'm already 2/3 of the way there.


----------



## Raheem (Jul 4, 2021)

Saul Goodman said:


> I'd settle for that.


One down, two to go.


----------



## Saul Goodman (Jul 4, 2021)

Raheem said:


> One down, two to go.


2 down, one to go 
(no, I'm not rich)


----------



## ska invita (Jul 5, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Agreed, but the 'real problem' is surely that when Brits vote they are offered an effective 'choice' between differently badged versions of neoliberal, consolidator state parties, none of whom would even contemplate re-nationalising the industries that they've privatised.


The last two elections had manifestos for a gamut of renationalisations written clearly on the tin


----------



## pogofish (Jul 5, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> Big boy ski pants



I have a pair of them in the loft - Scary thing is that after all these years, they still fit me!


----------



## brogdale (Jul 5, 2021)

ska invita said:


> The last two elections had manifestos for a gamut of renationalisations written clearly on the tin


Yes, one faction of the left party of capital did include some re-nationalisation in their party's 2017 & 2019 GE manifestos, but it's now pretty clear that other factions of that party controlling the bureaucracy, administration and finances worked to ensure those commitments could not be realised under a Corbyn-led government.

The wrecking faction(s) have now wrested back control of policy formulation and I think we can be pretty certain that the right of the party will not be offering re-nationalisations as a central plank of their future offer.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jul 5, 2021)

Dogsauce said:


> I think it’s just demand, can’t see how a week-long break in the supply chain would take months to correct, plenty of stuff comes in via other routes (timber from Northern Europe, and still some stuff made here).  People haven’t been able/willing to get work done during lockdown, also time spent furloughed or working from home gives you time to contemplate your surroundings and scheme what you would do to change it, or identify the need for a home office / garden room for wfh Etc.
> 
> Apparently the cost of building projects has increased massively, here in the south-west supposedly by 27%. We can’t even get anyone to quote for our flat refurbishment, people are booking work in for next spring. What we will be able to afford to do is likely to be less than planned which is a bit of a shitter.




Amazingly the ship that got stuck in the canal is still there, they have just agreed a ransom to pay and it will be freed on Wednesday: Ever Given: Egypt agrees deal to release ship that blocked Suez Canal


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 5, 2021)

More evidence, if it were needed, of Labour’s disappeared vote among leave voters.

In amongst all of the outpouring of psephology following the defeat in Hartlepool and the narrow win in Batley the long terms consequences of Labour’s accommodation with the middle class remain demand for a second referendum is consistently underplayed. Wonder why those at the forefront of that clamour - either for continuity remain reasons, or to try to do Corbyn in or both - constantly overlook this in their various explanations of where Labour’s votes have gone, why and who is responsible for it?


Leaver/remainers voting intentions 

LEAVERS
Con 70%
Lab 13%
Reform 6%

REMAINERS
Lab 45%
Con 21%
LibDem 17%
Green 9%
SNP 6%

(YouGov)


----------



## ska invita (Jul 5, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> More evidence, if it were needed, of Labour’s disappeared vote among leave voters.
> 
> In amongst all of the outpouring of psephology following the defeat in Hartlepool and the narrow win in Batley the long terms consequences of Labour’s accommodation with the middle class remain demand for a second referendum is consistently underplayed. Wonder why those at the forefront of that clamour - either for continuity remain reasons, or to try to do Corbyn in or both - constantly overlook this in their various explanations of where Labour’s votes have gone, why and who is responsible for it?
> 
> ...


Agree, though Leave Remain also has huge culture war dimensions to it, well beyond any issues of the EU. One of the reasons the referendum was so toxic.


----------



## brogdale (Jul 7, 2021)

1973 - 2020, no finals....2021....


----------



## Ax^ (Jul 7, 2021)

brexit -  possible ufea championship? - profit


----------



## andysays (Jul 8, 2021)

Another story which suggests that the shortage of lorry drivers and shortages of goods on supermarket shelves some may have experienced is not simply the result of "Brexit", and also that the government doesn't want to take the necessary steps to solve the problem.

*Backlash against longer hours to ease lorry driver shortage*


> A temporary extension of lorry drivers' working hours has been met with backlash from the industry who say the government is applying a "sticking plaster" to driver shortage problems. HGV drivers can increase their daily driving limits from nine to 10 hours or change weekly rest patterns on Monday.





> Transport Secretary Grant Shapps said the move would give flexibility to drivers to make slightly longer trips. But the Road Haulage Association said the move wouldn't make any difference. The RHA believes there is currently a shortfall of about 60,000 lorry drivers and said the relaxation on driving hour limits was a "sticking plaster".


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 8, 2021)

Project Fear/The Guardian's 100,000 shortage appears to have reduced to 60,000 in ... _checks notes_ ... 4 days.

It's a funny old thing how this has happened time and again over ... _checks notes_ ... 5 years. Never once do Remoaners twig ...


----------



## brogdale (Jul 8, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> Project Fear/The Guardian's 100,000 shortage appears to have reduced to 60,000 in ... _checks notes_ ... 4 days.
> 
> It's a funny old thing how this has happened time and again over ... _checks notes_ ... 5 years. Never once do Remoaners twig ...


That lame_ "...checks notes..."; _heuristic of those who actually check very little.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 8, 2021)

Wage rises, greater worker leverage, bosses forced to make work more attractive to lure labour, the Government and bosses forced to invest in training and skills....

#itscominghome









						UK employers struggle with worst labour shortage since 1997
					

Rush to reopen and departure of overseas workers have caused problems in areas including transport, hospitality and construction




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## brogdale (Jul 8, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Wage rises, greater worker leverage, bosses forced to make work more attractive to lure labour, the Government and bosses forced to invest in training and skills....
> 
> #itscominghome
> 
> ...


This is what I like about your posting; no messing about arguing the toss.
Yes, Brexit has created some labour shortages and eggs have to be broken before making etc.


----------



## Ax^ (Jul 8, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Wage rises, greater worker leverage, bosses forced to make work more attractive to lure labour, the Government and bosses forced to invest in training and skills....
> 
> #itscominghome
> 
> ...



sure it all the people who will lose their income at the end of the furlough scheme can all go work in weatherspoons or being truck drivers


----------



## Yossarian (Jul 8, 2021)

This is definitely a good time for workers to make some gains -  but since the Netherlands, France, Finland, Poland, Germany, and the US, among many others, are also experiencing major labour shortages , the Tories probably shouldn't be allowed to claim wage rises in Britain are entirely the result of their Brexit policies.


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 8, 2021)

All those cosy middle class jobs disappearing after furlough and yet no one willing to take a Brexit available job. What a time to be alive ..


----------



## NoXion (Jul 8, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> All those cosy middle class jobs disappearing after furlough and yet no one willing to take a Brexit available job. What a time to be alive ..



What exactly do you think you are contributing to this thread?


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jul 8, 2021)

NoXion said:


> What exactly do you think you are contributing to this thread?



Rotting meat


----------



## glitch hiker (Jul 8, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> Project Fear/The Guardian's 100,000 shortage appears to have reduced to 60,000 in ... _checks notes_ ... 4 days.
> 
> It's a funny old thing how this has happened time and again over ... _checks notes_ ... 5 years. Never once do Remoaners twig ...


When has this happened before? Did we leave the EU prior to last winter and I just failed to notice?


----------



## glitch hiker (Jul 8, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> All those cosy middle class jobs disappearing after furlough and yet no one willing to take a Brexit available job. What a time to be alive ..


What is a 'brexit available' job? Can you give an example? Link to an actual advert please


----------



## brogdale (Jul 8, 2021)

glitch hiker said:


> What is a 'brexit available' job? Can you give an example? Link to an actual advert please


"_checks notes"_

Nope.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 8, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> sure it all the people who will lose their income at the end of the furlough scheme can all go work in weatherspoons or being truck drivers



Sorry to piss on your chips but if you’d bothered to read the article you note that the labour shortages are increasing fastest in high paying areas of the economy as well.

What’s wrong with driving a truck by the way? Without lorry drivers bringing food and supplies - and who worked through the pandemic by the way - we’d be fucked. One of the most socially valuable jobs around.


----------



## glitch hiker (Jul 8, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Sorry to piss on your chips but if you’d bothered to read the article you note that the labour shortages are increasing fastest in high paying areas of the economy as well.
> 
> What’s wrong with driving a truck by the way? Without lorry drivers bringing food and supplies - and who worked through the pandemic by the way - we’d be fucked. One of the most socially valuable jobs around.


Wetherspoons on the other hand...


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 8, 2021)

glitch hiker said:


> Wetherspoons on the other hand...



Been debated elsewhere.

The mention of it, in this context - and the deliberate exclusion of the rest of the hospitality sector - is a symbol. The symbol being: possession of beclowning continuity remain politics and low level middle class nervousness at places where working class people gather in large numbers.


----------



## teqniq (Jul 8, 2021)

NoXion said:


> What exactly do you think you are contributing to this thread?


Really substandard trolling.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jul 8, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Been debated elsewhere.
> 
> The mention of it, in this context - and the deliberate exclusion of the rest of the hospitality sector - is a symbol. The symbol being: possession of beclowning continuity remain politics and low level middle class nervousness at places where working class people gather in large numbers.



Tbf, (can't speak for all) it's the Tim Martin factor that rankles. Would drink in spoons every so often, during London days. But wouldn't want to fill his pockets nowadays.


----------



## NoXion (Jul 8, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Been debated elsewhere.
> 
> The mention of it, in this context - and the deliberate exclusion of the rest of the hospitality sector - is a symbol. The symbol being: possession of beclowning continuity remain politics and low level middle class nervousness at places where working class people gather in large numbers.



Also, it's not as if the drinking public had an active role to play in the decline of non-chain pubs. The rise of Wetherspoons is a symptom of the wider decline and consolidation of outlets which serve the typical punter. You can see this by just looking at your local High Street, with its empty shopfronts and the accompanying rash of Poundlands and charity shops.


----------



## bimble (Jul 8, 2021)

glitch hiker said:


> What is a 'brexit available' job? Can you give an example? Link to an actual advert please


There are loads. 




__





						Challenge Validation
					





					www.totaljobs.com


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 8, 2021)

NoXion said:


> Also, it's not as if the drinking public had an active role to play in the decline of non-chain pubs. The rise of Wetherspoons is a symptom of the wider decline and consolidation of outlets which serve the typical punter. You can see this by just looking at your local High Street, with its empty shopfronts and the accompanying rash of Poundlands and charity shops.



What’s hilarious is the idea of middle class remainers venturing into working class districts to enforce their ‘boycott’ of the spoons. What’s typical is their abject failure to nourish, participate in and materially support union efforts to organise the spoons workforce so that it’s staff can leverage improvements to their pay, terms and conditions.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jul 8, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> What’s hilarious is the idea of middle class remainers venturing into working class districts to enforce their ‘boycott’ of the spoons. .



Not in the UK these days, how is this manifesting itself? 

Agree about the union point.


----------



## Yossarian (Jul 8, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> Not in the UK these days, how is this manifesting itself?
> 
> Agree about the union point.



I think the idea of  "middle class remainers venturing into working class districts" to try to stop people going to Wetherspoons might be a flight of fancy.


----------



## andysays (Jul 8, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> sure it all the people who will lose their income at the end of the furlough scheme can all go work in weatherspoons or being truck drivers


I doubt that many of them are qualified to be truck drivers, TBH, though I detect in your post the idea that truck driving would be somehow beneath them.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jul 8, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> I think the idea of  "middle class remainers venturing into working class districts" to try to stop people going to Wetherspoons might be a flight of fancy.



Tbh, London recalled doesn't tally with the particular class segregation suggested. IMHO, of course. Yes, there are areas which obviously are posh and obscenely rich but fuck it, maybe remembered it all wrong.

Seem to recall locals were wc/mc and the occasional toff. IME, must stress.


----------



## Ax^ (Jul 8, 2021)

andysays said:


> I doubt that many of them are qualified to be truck drivers, TBH, though I detect in your post the idea that truck driving would be somehow beneath them.



would not put it below the Tory to force the unemployed to whatever work their told to lose universal completely and they have plenty more people in the system to play around with shortly





fuck me what is it with this place and trunk drivers atm, fuck me the earn over the average wage before Brexit and plenty of worse jobs around that driving a truck


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 8, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> would not put it below the Tory to force the unemployed to whatever work their told to
> 
> fuck me what is it with this place and trunk drivers atm


They're real backseat drivers


----------



## NoXion (Jul 8, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> would not put it below the Tory to force the unemployed to whatever work their told to lose universal completely and they have plenty more people in the system to play around with shortly
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Look forward to the ghoulish Remainiac articles in the Guardian crowing over the "thick racists" being made to jump through hoops by the DWP.


----------



## Ax^ (Jul 8, 2021)

more than likely getting it from the scum and the heil calling the unemployed feckless saying they are leeching off the government for not be willing to accept any old job

they have form not the guardian


----------



## krtek a houby (Jul 8, 2021)

NoXion said:


> Look forward to the ghoulish Remainiac articles in the Guardian crowing over the "thick racists" being made to jump through hoops by the DWP.



Does anyone actually use the term "thick racists" in relation to the leave voters these days?


----------



## NoXion (Jul 8, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> Does anyone actually use the term "thick racists" in relation to the leave voters these days?



Of course not, they hide their contempt a bit better these days.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 8, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> Does anyone actually use the term "thick racists" in relation to the leave voters these days?


Has it been used in the past?


----------



## brogdale (Jul 8, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> Does anyone actually use the term "thick racists" in relation to the leave voters these days?


"...these days?"


----------



## krtek a houby (Jul 8, 2021)

NoXion said:


> Of course not, they hide their contempt a bit better these days.



Might have seen some variant of it on the graun comments, some years ago, tbf but now....


----------



## NoXion (Jul 8, 2021)

brogdale said:


> "...these days?"



2016 does feel like ten years ago...


----------



## krtek a houby (Jul 8, 2021)

brogdale said:


> "...these days?"



Well, yes. These days. As have stated before, was initially emotional and confounded by Brexit. But when it sank in, fully supported it. 

But the term "thick racists" - only ever see it used here - by those in _favour _of Brexit.


----------



## Ax^ (Jul 8, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> Does anyone actually use the term "thick racists" in relation to the leave voters these days?



just the MSM man

*shakes fist at sky


----------



## krtek a houby (Jul 8, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> just the MSM man
> 
> *shakes fist at sky


Sky news?


----------



## Ax^ (Jul 8, 2021)

if you don't get you news from a fella who does he own research on youtube



you sheeppl sheeppl I tells ye


----------



## gosub (Jul 8, 2021)

NoXion said:


> 2016 does feel like ten years ago...



Should never have put the French in charge of time


----------



## Ax^ (Jul 8, 2021)

what the French have control of time

#whatwasbrexitfor

*shakes fist at paris


----------



## andysays (Jul 8, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> would not put it below the Tory to force the unemployed to whatever work their told to lose universal completely and they have plenty more people in the system to play around with shortly
> fuck me what is it with this place and trunk drivers atm, *fuck me the earn over the average wage before Brexit* and plenty of worse jobs around that driving a truck


I would be very interested to see you back that claim up with some genuine figures


----------



## Ax^ (Jul 8, 2021)

andysays said:


> I would be very interested to see you back that claim up with some genuine figures



show me some genuine figures proving otherwise


----------



## andysays (Jul 8, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> show me some genuine figures proving otherwise


The general rule here on Urban tends to be that anyone making claims like yours is expected to back them up.

I don't have figures to hand ATM, though I'm sure I could find something if I looked.

But I would hope that anyone making that sort of quite specific claim would have the data to back it up before making it.

Or are you admitting you didn't have any data at all and just pulled the assertion out of your arse?


----------



## Ax^ (Jul 8, 2021)

I'm interest to see seeming as I spent the last 15 years working in warehousing , stores and the air freight industry around heathrow

what sort of figures dragged up average salary in 2020 was around the 28 grand mark

with some lads I know working for frontrunner making over 40 grand


----------



## Dystopiary (Jul 8, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> would not put it below the Tory to force the unemployed to whatever work their told to lose universal completely and they have plenty more people in the system to play around with shortly


Yep. The far-from-middle-class people. I hope you're wrong but it's not like the Tories haven't got form for this.


----------



## Dystopiary (Jul 8, 2021)

Of course, nobody on benefits voted to stay in the EU, only well off people who hate the lower classes.


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 8, 2021)

glitch hiker said:


> What is a 'brexit available' job? Can you give an example? Link to an actual advert please



Hasn't the Guardian just been advertising 100,000 of them. Sorry 60,000 of them - the jobs 'brits' are too lazy to do becasue they're working class bigots, etc.


----------



## Ax^ (Jul 8, 2021)

you read far to much if the guardian

have you shield out for a subscription


----------



## bimble (Jul 8, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> As have stated before, was initially emotional and confounded by Brexit. But when it sank in, fully supported it.


You fully supported what? 
Do you just mean you're glad the majority's vote got implemented or do you mean that upon reflection you think brexit was a great idea.


----------



## Dystopiary (Jul 8, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> you read far to much if the guardian
> 
> have you shield out for a subscription


Who, me? I was being sarcastic you know.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jul 8, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> I'm interest to see seeming as I spent the last 15 years working in warehousing , stores and the air freight industry around heathrow
> 
> what sort of figures dragged up average salary in 2020 was around the 28 grand mark
> 
> with some lads I know working for frontrunner making over 40 grand


There are a few figures knocking around. Average lorry driver salary, according to this is around £30k. It may be going on slightly outdated figures though. Latest UK median salary for full-time employees is £31k. (mean is £36k but the median is probably the more illustrative than the mean in this instance. The mean is altered a lot by a few very rich people at the top).

So the best estimate of lorry driver salary is that a driver with a few years' experience will average around the UK median. Starting salaries in the low £20ks. It's not terrible pay. It's not great.


----------



## Ax^ (Jul 8, 2021)

and now moving on from trucker drivers


----------



## Ax^ (Jul 8, 2021)

Dystopiary said:


> Who, me? I was being sarcastic you know.



not you


----------



## andysays (Jul 8, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> There are a few figures knocking around. Average lorry driver salary, according to this is around £30k. It may be going on slightly outdated figures though. Latest UK median salary for full-time employees is £31k. (mean is £36k but the median is probably the more illustrative than the mean in this instance. The mean is altered a lot by a few very rich people at the top).
> 
> So the best estimate of lorry driver salary is that a driver with a few years' experience will average around the UK median. Starting salaries in the low £20ks. It's not terrible pay. It's not great.


Thanks for taking the trouble to find the figures.

They certainly appear to show that, not only did Ax^ have no idea whether the assertion they made was accurate or not, it was in fact completely wrong, despite some lads they know working for frontrunner making over 40 grand


----------



## Ax^ (Jul 8, 2021)

quoted the average medium for last year before covid , also work in a related industry

what's your accusation of having no idea fuck nuts


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 8, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> quoted the average medium for last year before covid , also work in a related industry
> 
> what's your accusation of having no idea fuck nuts


I wonder what the median wage for mediums is


----------



## Ax^ (Jul 8, 2021)

well at least after 115 pages we know how much trucker drivers earn


now if we can just get the clocks back from the French Brexit will be a success


----------



## andysays (Jul 8, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> I wonder what the median wage for mediums is


Don't bother asking Ax^ , though they probably know some lads working in the industry making over 40 grand


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 8, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> well at least after 115 pages we know how much trucker drivers earn
> 
> 
> now if we can just get the clocks back from the French Brexit will be a success


Brexit will be a success when Boris Johnson swaps heads with Keir Starmer


----------



## Ax^ (Jul 8, 2021)

andysays said:


> Don't bother asking Ax^ , though they probably know some lads working in the industry making over 40 grand




weird flex the quote google search came back in figure simular to mine
but feel free to take it as a win, now go back to making up Guardian headlines


----------



## Raheem (Jul 8, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> I wonder what the median wage for mediums is


Depends on what you mean.


----------



## glitch hiker (Jul 8, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> Hasn't the Guardian just been advertising 100,000 of them. Sorry 60,000 of them - the jobs 'brits' are too lazy to do becasue they're working class bigots, etc.


No idea how you think this answers my question


----------



## MrSki (Jul 8, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> Hasn't the Guardian just been advertising 100,000 of them. Sorry 60,000 of them - the jobs 'brits' are too lazy to do becasue they're working class bigots, etc.


No it has been reporting on what the Road Haulage Association has claimed or stated to the government when wanting a relaxation on foreign drivers. 

Still fucking terrible that a newspaper reports stuff.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 8, 2021)

Dystopiary said:


> Of course, nobody on benefits voted to stay in the EU, only well off people who hate the lower classes.


Plenty of those on low incomes, and on benefits, voted remain. However, none were leaders of the great Remain campaign. More importantly I’ve not met one who has adopted the crank politics of continuity remain. They’ve accepted the result and moved on along with the serious wing of the remain campaign.


----------



## Ax^ (Jul 8, 2021)

who is the leader ship of continuity remain. is it the commison

do they have any power?


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 8, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> who is the leader ship of continuity remain. is it the commison
> 
> do they have any power?



The professional middle class.

residual


----------



## bimble (Jul 8, 2021)

what is continuity remain? 
seriously what are you even talking about?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 8, 2021)

bimble said:


> what is continuity remain?
> seriously what are you even talking about?


I thought everybody knew about the official / provisional / continuity thing, it's been about for years and years


----------



## Ax^ (Jul 8, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> The professional middle class.
> 
> residual




were any of the leave leaders, the professional middle class or just posh cunts?


----------



## bimble (Jul 8, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> I thought everybody knew about the official / provisional / continuity thing, it's been about for years and years


Nope I’ve googled and everything , only results for Continuity Remain post 2016 seems to be guido falkes.
What does it mean to those who use it on here? 
there is no discernible Rejoin movement far as I know, what is Continuity Remain ?


----------



## Raheem (Jul 8, 2021)

"Continuity remain" is a political movement that objects to Brexit as being a bit like the UK is wearing a tie, then there's a cut and suddenly it isn't.


----------



## ska invita (Jul 8, 2021)

bimble said:


> there is no discernible Rejoin movement far as I know, what is Continuity Remain ?


AC Grayling for example.... or this


			https://twitter.com/brejoineu
		

theyre out there, biding their time,


----------



## bimble (Jul 8, 2021)

ska invita said:


> AC Grayling for example.... or this
> 
> 
> https://twitter.com/brejoineu
> ...


oh right, so Continuity Remain means those people who are trying to make rejoin happen?
"Brejoin". jesus. thats bad.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 8, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> were any of the leave leaders, the professional middle class or just posh cunts?



I’d estimate 95% plus of the PMC were remain.

posh cunts were, of course, split.


----------



## MrSki (Jul 8, 2021)

There are still some people who believe the referendum was illegal & it was only on its advisory status that it managed to get through. Still the foreign backers got a result. 
I feel like I was ripped off & would never be happy with a company who ripped me off so why the load of bollocks that the Brexit campaign came out with at the time.
It was mainly lies & scaremongering. 
I would not forgive a mugger & that is how I feel is the UK has been mugged by a bunch of cunts. 

Sorry for the rant.


----------



## ska invita (Jul 8, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I’d estimate 95% plus of the PMC were remain.


i doubt that very much
home counties is where the brexit vote was really won


----------



## brogdale (Jul 8, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I’d estimate 95% plus of the PMC were remain.
> 
> posh cunts were, of course, split.


ABs were 57% R : 43% L according to this:


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 8, 2021)

Stage 3 to 4 stage of loss


----------



## Ax^ (Jul 8, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I’d estimate 95% plus of the PMC were remain.


----------



## bimble (Jul 8, 2021)

ska invita said:


> i doubt that very much
> home counties is where the brexit vote was really won


Yep, my nearest town - proper home counties - Conservative Club on the high street next to the m&s , bunting, tea rooms, the whole stupid thing, it voted leave (narrowly but still) and its the most middle class place you can imagine.

_*The strongest predictor for voting leave was owing yr own home.*_

I'm going to keep on typing that. just to annoy you and cos its true.


----------



## Ax^ (Jul 8, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I’d estimate 95% plus of the PMC were remain.
> 
> posh cunts were, of course, split.



ya daft twat


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jul 8, 2021)

Age and wealth decided that leave would win.









More middle class voted for leave than the stereotype says, and vice versa.




It's also that solid boomer demographic that voted Leave, the post war gen.


----------



## discokermit (Jul 8, 2021)

brogdale said:


> ABs were 57% R : 43% L according to this:
> 
> View attachment 277612


so the posher you get, the higher the remain vote.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jul 8, 2021)

The choice was always a tough one, I've said this from the start. 

There were good reasons to vote leave, my argument was I didn't want to be stuck here dealing with the political class we have in charge. Or the likes of Farage and Boris in charge. That didn't work out. 

Regardless of which way you voted we have now moved to a post leave world. What remains is dealing with the fallout and pushing past an environment where the cuddly conservatives have an 80 seat majority


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 8, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> ya daft twat



Have you read your posts today? Wrong on the labour shortage, wrong on lorry drivers pay, wrong on the class composition of planet crank. A bad day at the office eh….


----------



## brogdale (Jul 8, 2021)

discokermit said:


> so the posher you get, the higher the remain vote.


Well, certainly the 'higher' the NRS social grade category that you would be placed by employment status, the more likely was a vote to remain in the supra-state.


----------



## discokermit (Jul 8, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Well, certainly the 'higher' the NRS social grade category that you would be placed by employment status, the more likely was a vote to remain in the supra-state.


yes would have done.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jul 8, 2021)

I'm also never going to not resent the five years of my life we have wasted with this shit and the impact on my job and my ability to move around should I ever have the funds to do so.


----------



## bimble (Jul 8, 2021)

Smokeandsteam Is it you that keeps saying continuity remain? 
if it is you what do you mean by it what is it?


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 8, 2021)

bimble said:


> Smokeandsteam Is it you that keeps saying continuity remain?
> if it is you, what do you mean by it?



A dwindling army that fights on after the war has been ended. Increasingly remote from the constituency that it claims it draws support from. Due to its awareness of its own active and palpable decomposition prone to stunts/overreach/fantasy. As it drifts further into space the small group of fanatics marooned in the bubble tell themselves ‘one more heave’…


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jul 8, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> A dwindling army that fights on after the war has been ended. Increasingly remote from the constituency that it claims it draws support from. Due to its awareness of its own active and palpable decomposition prone to stunts/overreach/fantasy. As it drifts further into space the small group of fanatics marooned in the bubble tell themselves ‘one more heave’…



It worked for fucking UKIP types for 40 years which is why we are here, so fuck it, heave away boys


----------



## discokermit (Jul 8, 2021)

the vote also seems to be linked to higher educational achievement.
as we all know, education is partly a form of indoctrination. so remain voters must be more succesfully dosed with bourgeois neoliberal ideas and thought processes.


----------



## bimble (Jul 8, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> A dwindling army that fights on after the war has been ended. Increasingly remote from the constituency that it claims it draws support from. Due to its awareness of its own active and palpable decomposition prone to stunts/overreach/fantasy. As it drifts further into space the small group of fanatics marooned in the bubble tell themselves ‘one more heave’…


Where are these people?
i have never seen one, even online, until that link a few posts up. They seem to haunt your imagination like some ghoulish horde. 
Brexit is done, we who live on this island have all brexited, why are you constantly going on about these invisible fantasists ?


----------



## Ax^ (Jul 8, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> A dwindling army that fights on after the war has been ended. Increasingly remote from the constituency that it claims it draws support from. Due to its awareness of its own active and palpable decomposition prone to stunts/overreach/fantasy. As it drifts further into space the small group of fanatics marooned in the bubble tell themselves ‘one more heave’…



is the not GETTR


----------



## Raheem (Jul 8, 2021)

bimble said:


> Where are these people?
> i have never seen one, even online, until that link a few posts up. They seem to haunt your imagination like some ghoulish horde. Brexit is done, we have all brexited, why are you constantly going on about these to me invisible fantasists ?


Its leaders are the whole of the professional middle class, so of course you've seen them, silly.


----------



## bimble (Jul 8, 2021)

Raheem said:


> Its leaders are the whole of the professional middle class, so of course you've seen them, silly.



i do see. But not the ones who own their houses, cos mostly those people who do own their houses THEY VOTED LEAVE .


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 8, 2021)

bimble said:


> They seem to haunt your imagination like some ghoulish horde.


They certainly haunt this thread.


----------



## two sheds (Jul 8, 2021)

bimble said:


> i do see. But not the ones who own their houses, cos mostly those people who do own their houses THEY VOTED LEAVE .


which is INSANE because if they leave they're going to have to leave their houses behind them  where will they live??


----------



## brogdale (Jul 8, 2021)

discokermit said:


> the vote also seems to be linked to higher educational achievement.
> as we all know, education is partly a form of indoctrination. so remain voters must be more succesfully dosed with bourgeois neoliberal ideas and thought processes.


I'd think it more likely just a surrogate for the previously discussed employment-status social grades, tbh.
As we all know notions of social mobility via education are mostly guff.


----------



## discokermit (Jul 8, 2021)

brogdale said:


> I'd think it more likely just a surrogate for the previously discussed employment-status social grades, tbh.
> As we all know notions of social mobility via education are mostly guff.


maybe the two go together. if you wanna get on, knuckle down and do as you are told.


----------



## Raheem (Jul 8, 2021)

bimble said:


> i do see. But not the ones who own their houses, cos mostly those people who do own their houses THEY VOTED LEAVE .


That's the other 5%, I guess.


----------



## Ax^ (Jul 8, 2021)

its more complicated than that


people on both side did not recieve a full picture of the consequence and voted regardless

and by consequence, i mean having Boris and his party  in change of it


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jul 8, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> its more complicated than that
> 
> 
> people on both side did not recieve a full picture of the consequence and voted regardless
> ...



They weren't fucking paying attention then. 

The ref was always a conservative driven civil war. 

The great missed chance for a saner more people focused leave was Jeremy having s chance to put his Eurosceptic views forward that first month after leave won. I will resent the labour fuckers who fucked about and jumped him forever.


----------



## brogdale (Jul 8, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> its more complicated than that
> 
> 
> people on both side did not recieve a full picture of the consequence and voted regardless
> ...


Yeah, but how would it ever have been possible to receive 'a full picture' of unknown hypothetical futures?

Plenty of (then) Labour voters did vote Leave thinking (rightly?) it would fuck up Cameron and probably hoping/thinking that their party might have regained its former anti-suprastate position and run with the new reality?


----------



## Ax^ (Jul 8, 2021)

if you were  anti-suprastate position would  you not just voted tory

*looks at coat


----------



## brogdale (Jul 8, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> if you were  anti-suprastate position who you not just of voted tory
> 
> *looks at coat


eh?

The tory party's government were remain.


----------



## Ax^ (Jul 8, 2021)

when?


----------



## Raheem (Jul 8, 2021)

brogdale said:


> eh?
> 
> The tory party's government were remain.


They were split, just fwiw.


----------



## bimble (Jul 8, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Yeah, but how would it ever have been possible to receive 'a full picture' of unknown hypothetical futures?
> 
> Plenty of (then) Labour voters did vote Leave thinking (rightly?) it would fuck up Cameron and probably hoping/thinking that their party might have regained its former anti-suprastate position and run with the new reality?


cameron's face that day, it was a bit funny, but anyone who voted leave just to see that face the thrill must have worn off now, 5 years later. i think david cameron is fine, probably doing very expensive after dinner zoom speeches.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jul 8, 2021)

bimble said:


> You fully supported what?
> Do you just mean you're glad the majority's vote got implemented or do you mean that upon reflection you think brexit was a great idea.



When it sank in that the union is in irreversible decline and Ireland would be free of the oppressors, was filled with admiration and gratitude to the electorate.


----------



## brogdale (Jul 8, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> when?


2016, until 24/06


----------



## Ax^ (Jul 8, 2021)

of course it was the filthy lefties who lead to Brexit and a basic populist government in the UK


----------



## bimble (Jul 8, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> When it sank in that the union is in irreversible decline and Ireland would be free of the oppressors, was filled with admiration and gratitude to the electorate.


i see!
by 'fully support brexit' you just mean you are happy that ireland looks more likely to unify ok.


----------



## brogdale (Jul 8, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> of course it was the dirty lefties who lead to brexit


Seriously?
You must remember how the Cameron government was full-on remain?


----------



## Ax^ (Jul 8, 2021)

whos party and backbenchers make it a question to be answered


----------



## krtek a houby (Jul 8, 2021)

bimble said:


> i see!
> by 'fully support brexit' you just mean you are happy that ireland looks more likely to unify ok.



Well, that takes precedence over the oppressors but wish them all the best in their own pursuit of freedom.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 8, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> The choice was always a tough one, I've said this from the start.
> 
> There were good reasons to vote leave, my argument was I didn't want to be stuck here dealing with the political class we have in charge. Or the likes of Farage and Boris in charge. That didn't work out.
> 
> Regardless of which way you voted we have now moved to a post leave world. What remains is dealing with the fallout and pushing past an environment where the cuddly conservatives have an 80 seat majority


We have not moved to a post leave world. We are always leaving and never gone. In a post leave world we'd not be piddling about still about the ni protocol etc


----------



## Raheem (Jul 8, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Seriously?
> You must remember how the Cameron government was full-on remain?


It wasn't. Cameron and Osborne were, but the cabinet and the government were split.


----------



## Ax^ (Jul 8, 2021)

our betters told us to get into Europe

and our betters told us to get out of Europe

Happy Days

i still wondering about the logic


----------



## brogdale (Jul 8, 2021)

Raheem said:


> It wasn't. Cameron and Osborne were, but the cabinet and the government were split.


Remember this plonking on the doormat?


----------



## Ax^ (Jul 8, 2021)

don't be a tory party supporter


----------



## Raheem (Jul 8, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Remember this plonking on the doormat?
> 
> View attachment 277623


Not novel for an official document to start with a lie though, is it? Michael Gove was justice secretary. Ian Drunken Whatsit was work and pensions.


----------



## gosub (Jul 8, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Plenty of those on low incomes, and on benefits, voted remain. However, none were leaders of the great Remain campaign. More importantly I’ve not met one who has adopted the crank politics of continuity remain. They’ve accepted the result and moved on along with the serious wing of the remain campaign.


 So is there a serious wing of remain,and more rationally rejoin that is being clouded by cranks or serious politics has moved on cos its doneish ?


----------



## gosub (Jul 9, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Seriously?
> You must remember how the Cameron government was full-on remain?


To the point of instructing the civil service not to contingency plan leaving


----------



## gosub (Jul 9, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Remember this plonking on the doormat?
> 
> View attachment 277623



I do, and I remember the system going after leave for breaching spending caps


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 9, 2021)

So what number do we think the lad in charge of putting some random Fear figure  in the placeholder for the 'Road Hauliers Owner whatever' will decide on today; back up to 100,000K? Maybe down to 30,000? Stick at 60,000K? How about a really big new number just cos it's Friday?

Anything at all, I suppose, except acknowledge owners got away with poverty wges for 12 years or longer - and of course U75 fav media will report it all verbatim, unquestioned.


----------



## brogdale (Jul 9, 2021)

Yeah, a characteristic of discussion in the P&P of U75 has always been its unquestioning nature.

Fucking dolt.


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 9, 2021)

We're all going to be rationed soon - it's it's like .. "rolling electicity outages" and all that. 

Facking cunt.


----------



## brogdale (Jul 9, 2021)

Raheem said:


> It wasn't. Cameron and Osborne were, but the cabinet and the government were split.


of course they was a significant faction within the Tory party that supported Leave, including a handful of Ministers, but the Cameron Government's position was one of Remain.
Looking at the political context of the referendum from the perspective of those not as interested in politics as many of us here, one driver to vote Leave was anti-(Tory)-government sentiment.


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 9, 2021)

Leave was anti-poverty and pro-democracy, food banks growing exponentially. Of course the Tories were mostly Remain, apart from the loony nationalists.


----------



## ska invita (Jul 9, 2021)

brogdale said:


> one driver to vote Leave was anti-(Tory)-government sentiment.


how many leave voters continued to vote Tory afterwards though?


----------



## brogdale (Jul 9, 2021)

ska invita said:


> how many leave voters continued to vote Tory afterwards though?


When the factional takeover had completely repositioned the party to endorse the outcome of the plebiscite; loads did.


----------



## brogdale (Jul 9, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> Leave was anti-poverty and pro-democracy, food banks growing exponentially.


Vacuous platitude.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 9, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Vacuous platitude.


Best song off ruddy yurts' 'cost of pissing' ep


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 9, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> Leave was anti-poverty and pro-democracy, food banks growing exponentially. Of course the Tories were mostly Remain, apart from the loony nationalists.


Yes the current administration was and is pro-food banks, they've opened up since 2016 on an unprecedented scale


----------



## brogdale (Jul 9, 2021)

Notice the deliberately imprecise use of the word "Leave" which could, and no doubt will, be interpreted in a myriad of ways to justify the twaddle spouted.

Classic time-wasting trolling behaviour.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 9, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Notice the deliberately imprecise use of the word "Leave" which could, and no doubt will, be interpreted in a myriad of ways to justify the twaddle spouted.
> 
> Classic time-wasting trolling behaviour.


If only he'd leave, either voluntarily or through defenestration


----------



## glitch hiker (Jul 9, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> Leave was anti-poverty and pro-democracy, food banks growing exponentially. Of course the Tories were mostly Remain, apart from the loony nationalists.


Why didn't Farage call for a second referendum after claiming that, had the results been reversed and with the same tiny margin, he would have called for another vote?

What is democratic about a campaign fought by dishonest actors?

How is making trade more difficult and expensive anti-poverty?


----------



## brogdale (Jul 9, 2021)

glitch hiker said:


> Why didn't Farage call for a second referendum after claiming that, had the results been reversed and with the same tiny margin, he would have called for another vote?
> 
> What is democratic about a campaign fought by dishonest actors?
> 
> How is making trade more difficult and expensive anti-poverty?


That's exactly what Troll-boy wants.
Until and unless he backs up his twaddle, there's nowt to be gained from engaging.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 9, 2021)

brogdale said:


> That's exactly what Troll-boy wants.
> Until and unless he backs up his twaddle, there's nowt to be gained from engaging.


His twaddle's already backed up, any more and there'll be shit coming out of the sink. We need a plumber to clear the blockage. Perhaps editor might be persuaded to use his skills here


----------



## andysays (Jul 9, 2021)

brogdale said:


> When the factional takeover had completely repositioned the party to endorse the outcome of the plebiscite; loads did.


And some extent that factional take over and all that has resulted from it was the consequence of those who Smokeandsteam has labelled Continuity Remainers effectively blocking the less extreme version of Brexit the May government was aiming for.


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 9, 2021)

glitch hiker said:


> Why didn't Farage call for a second referendum after claiming that, had the results been reversed and with the same tiny margin, he would have called for another vote?
> 
> What is democratic about a campaign fought by dishonest actors?
> 
> How is making trade more difficult and expensive anti-poverty?


Like a parasite on a host, Farage attached himself to a pre-existing sentiment, a growing pre-existing reality for low paid and social housing communities.

What he and the the media did with it was attach their own - different - spins. Beyond Farage and the mainstream media, Leave was anti-poverty and pro-democracy.

Do you really think the exponential rise in poverty and foodbanks had nothing to do with a half a million (plus) economic migrants from SE EU. Like they just rocked up and employers paid them the same. The truth of that is in the Guardian every day at the moment - employers effectively bemoaning the demise of poverty wages.


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 9, 2021)

glitch hiker said:


> Why didn't Farage call for a second referendum after claiming that, had the results been reversed and with the same tiny margin, he would have called for another vote?



tbh, I don't really understand the question.

It wasn't a football match with VAR. We had a legit national referendum which, in the months after, even the Labour Party demanded needed to be "respected".

Anything else is and was an attempted middle class coup  -what the screaming fuck is a _peoples_ vote. Jesus.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jul 9, 2021)

andysays said:


> And some extent that factional take over and all that has resulted from it was the consequence of those who Smokeandsteam has labelled Continuity Remainers effectively blocking the less extreme version of Brexit the May government was aiming for.


In what way was May's version less extreme? The NI backstop, I guess. Anything else? From what I remember, she was the one who introduced the 'red lines', 'Brexit means Brexit', etc, rewriting history to make out that anything short of full withdrawal from the free movement area, European Court of Justice and common market was 'bino' and a betrayal of the referendum result, drawing explicitly on the playbook of r/w tea party Republican types in the US while cosying up to Donald Trump. May's version of Brexit was in many respects more extreme than the versions being pushed by the Leave campaigns in the referendum.


----------



## Raheem (Jul 9, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> In what way was May's version less extreme?


It wasn't less extreme, but it wasn't logically possible. She would have been eventually forced to concede to single market membership, or something effectively the same.


----------



## Maltin (Jul 9, 2021)

Raheem said:


> It wasn't less extreme, but it wasn't logically possible. She would have been eventually forced to concede to single market membership, or something effectively the same.



Is the current version logically possible? Isn't this the reason why Lord Frost etc are trying to reverse what they agreed to?


----------



## Ax^ (Jul 9, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> The truth of that is in the Guardian every day at the moment - employers effectively bemoaning the demise of poverty wages.



do you keep bring up the Guardian because you pissed off you got booted of the GB news thread?

 

GB news not being part of the Woke MSM by fact ofit  just being shite


----------



## gosub (Jul 9, 2021)

andysays said:


> And some extent that factional take over and all that has resulted from it was the consequence of those who Smokeandsteam has labelled Continuity Remainers effectively blocking the less extreme version of Brexit the May government was aiming for.


It feels like that, but it wasn't.  When they eventually got round to debating which Brexit in Parliament the remainers voted for every softer Brexit but couldn't get the numbers to back any of them... But there was a lot of talking past each ither


----------



## Raheem (Jul 9, 2021)

Maltin said:


> Is the current version logically possible? Isn't this the reason why Lord Frost etc are trying to reverse what they agreed to?


There's nothing illogical about it AFAICT, unless you think people in Belfast logically have to eat English sausages. Although perhaps David Frost does think that.


----------



## brogdale (Jul 9, 2021)

gosub said:


> It feels like that, but it wasn't.  When they eventually got round to debating which Brexit in Parliament the remainers voted for every softer Brexit but couldn't get the numbers to back any of them... But there was a lot of talking past each ither


Important to distinguish between the 'meaningful' and 'indicative' votes.
In the former, the opposition fatally joined the swivel-eyed tory faction to block Brexit and in the latter, all 8 failed because the remainarian oppo lost the swivel-eyed fraternity.


----------



## glitch hiker (Jul 9, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> tbh, I don't really understand the question.
> 
> It wasn't a football match with VAR. We had a legit national referendum which, in the months after, even the Labour Party demanded needed to be "respected".
> 
> Anything else is and was an attempted middle class coup  -what the screaming fuck is a _peoples_ vote. Jesus.


The refernedum wasn't binding, only advisory. Leave ignored that point convincing people that this vote was binding and thus the outcome should be acted upon. To say nothing of it's dishonesty and to whom it was connected.

I don't know what you think "respecting" the vote means in that context. People were lied to by well resourced wealthy liars who have made like bandits while the rest of us are left with diminished horizons and endless division.

The question is simple: you claimed Brexit is pro-democracy. I asked you how that was in the context of Farage denying that same principle. Brexit has taken people's say in the running of the EU from out of their hands leaving us as rule takers not rule makers with our biggest trading partners.


----------



## glitch hiker (Jul 9, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> Like a parasite on a host, Farage attached himself to a pre-existing sentiment, a growing pre-existing reality for low paid and social housing communities.
> 
> What he and the the media did with it was attach their own - different - spins. Beyond Farage and the mainstream media, Leave was anti-poverty and pro-democracy.
> 
> Do you really think the exponential rise in poverty and foodbanks had nothing to do with a half a million (plus) economic migrants from SE EU. Like they just rocked up and employers paid them the same. The truth of that is in the Guardian every day at the moment - employers effectively bemoaning the demise of poverty wages.


Farage's motives are irrelevant he was part of the pro Brexit campaign, vociferously so. You can't then turn around and dismiss him on those grounds. Remainers were warning about him for years and correcting his lies throughout. Now you wash your hands of him? 

I think the rise in poverty has nothing to do with migrants and everything to do with capitalism and the Tory austerity program. Migration has not been a drain on our society financially. Even if it were that would be a fact exiting in a capitalist context wherein only the poor have to pay taxes. We could have taxed the rich and seized their assets


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 9, 2021)

I don't understand how you phrased the question: Farage isn't even an elected representative in any political institution.  Effectively, this Government is a re-elected Leave government.


----------



## gosub (Jul 9, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Important to distinguish between the 'meaningful' and 'indicative' votes.
> In the former, the opposition fatally joined the swivel-eyed tory faction to block Brexit and in the latter, all 8 failed because the remainarian oppo lost the swivel-eyed fraternity.



Fair assessment, though I would argue rather than distinguishing between meaningful and indicative the fuck up was that all happened post triggering art 50


----------



## brogdale (Jul 9, 2021)

glitch hiker said:


> The refernedum wasn't binding, only advisory.


We have been over this many times; the Cameron administration that legislated for the plebiscite told the electorate that they would be bound by the outcome:


----------



## Crispy (Jul 9, 2021)

It's also a meaningless thing to say under the UK's constitutional system. No law can compel government, so all referenda are de jure advisory. They are made de facto binding by the political devastation caused by ignoring the result.


----------



## brogdale (Jul 9, 2021)

Crispy said:


> It's also a meaningless thing to say under the UK's constitutional system. No law can compel government, so all referenda are de jure advisory. They are made de facto binding by the political devastation caused by ignoring the result.


Yes, and the clarity given to the electorate was incontestable.


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 9, 2021)

You might mean the clarity given _by_ the electorate i.e. an 86 seat majority in effectivly a single-issue General Election.


----------



## glitch hiker (Jul 9, 2021)

brogdale said:


> We have been over this many times; the Cameron administration that legislated for the plebiscite told the electorate that they would be bound by the outcome:
> 
> View attachment 277669


fair enough


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 9, 2021)

glitch hiker said:


> I think the rise in poverty has nothing to do with migrants and everything to do with capitalism and the Tory austerity program. Migration has not been a drain on our society financially.



I'm going to assume you are young. This is from 11 years ago - pre-Austerity, pre-Brexit. What we might call now old skool populism except the term wasn't mainstream then and no one recognised this as a 'populist' view in plain sight. It's Brown campaigning and failing to win a Generl Election.

The woman is a life-long Labour Party supporter (then), in the North, and a care-worker for 30 years. This was the point Labour lost its soul.

I'll say it again: absent the mainstream spin and Farage spin, Leave was anti-poverty, pro-democracy:


----------



## andysays (Jul 9, 2021)

glitch hiker said:


> The refernedum wasn't binding, only advisory. Leave ignored that point convincing people that this vote was binding and thus the outcome should be acted upon. To say nothing of it's dishonesty and to whom it was connected.
> 
> I don't know what you think "respecting" the vote means in that context. People were lied to by well resourced wealthy liars who have made like bandits while the rest of us are left with diminished horizons and endless division.
> 
> The question is simple: you claimed Brexit is pro-democracy. I asked you how that was in the context of Farage denying that same principle. Brexit has taken people's say in the running of the EU from out of their hands leaving us as rule takers not rule makers with our biggest trading partners.


<Insert Magic Roundabout GiF here>


----------



## brogdale (Jul 9, 2021)

Arrant nonsense.

There are points in the history of the LP where it might be said that it had lost its 'soul', (if it ever had one?), but Brown's 'hot-mic' revelation of what he really thought of 'his people' was not such a moment.


----------



## not a trot (Jul 9, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Arrant nonsense.
> 
> There are points in the history of the LP where it might be said that it had lost its 'soul', (if it ever had one?), but Brown's 'hot-mic' revelation of what he really thought of 'his people' was not such a moment.


Didn't do his election chances much good. I suspect many working class voters were pretty pissed off with his response.


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 9, 2021)

Exactly, it began to lose the working class.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jul 9, 2021)

glitch hiker said:


> Brexit has taken people's say in the running of the EU from out of their hands



The people had a say in the running of the EU now.


----------



## Colin Hunt (Jul 9, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> Exactly, it began to lose the working class.


Labour had been shedding working class votes for a long time before Brown put his foot in his mouth, and has continued to do so afterwards (albeit with a brief Corbyn uptick before Starmer et al. decided to team up with the Lib Dems to lose a culture war).


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 9, 2021)

Colin Hunt said:


> Labour had been shedding working class votes for a long time before Brown put his foot in his mouth, and has continued to do so afterwards (albeit with a brief Corbyn uptick before Starmer et al. decided to team up with the Lib Dems to lose a culture war).



Correct. We’ve debated this on here before but I cba to engage with Loose Teeth or whatever his name is.


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 9, 2021)

Colin Hunt said:


> Labour had been shedding working class votes for a long time before Brown put his foot in his mouth


Blair lost some. After the Iraq lies. But he still won the third 3rd election.

Anyway, enough of the side dish and back to ... mainsteam spin and Farage spin aside, Leave was anti-poverty and pro-democracy


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 9, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> Blair lost some. After the Iraq lies. But he still won the third 3rd election.



you’ve had two attempts at this now now and are still wrong.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jul 9, 2021)

This is a fucking useless debate without a solid definition of what the working class is.

Spoilers: We do not currently have that definition.


----------



## glitch hiker (Jul 9, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> The people had a say in the running of the EU now.


the point being that now the UK, regardless of the form it took, has no say whatsoever in rules that affect how we trade with member states.


----------



## glitch hiker (Jul 9, 2021)

andysays said:


> <Insert Magic Roundabout GiF here>


What does that mean?


----------



## glitch hiker (Jul 9, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> I'm going to assume you are young. This is from 11 years ago - pre-Austerity, pre-Brexit. What we might call now old skool populism except the term wasn't mainstream then and no one recognised this as a 'populist' view in plain sight. It's Brown campaigning and failing to win a Generl Election.
> 
> The woman is a life-long Labour Party supporter (then), in the North, and a care-worker for 30 years. This was the point Labour lost its soul.
> 
> I'll say it again: absent the mainstream spin and Farage spin, Leave was anti-poverty, pro-democracy:



If you're going to assume I'm at most 11 years old then why are you bothering to even respond? Do you often have political discussions with pre teen kids?

What does any of this have to do with Nigel Farage claiming that if Leave lost by 48% instead of Remain there would be "unfinished business". Do you disagree he said that, as one of the leading influencers of the referendum and its campaign?

This clip was 6 years before the referendum, I don't even...


----------



## Ax^ (Jul 9, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> This is a fucking useless debate without a solid definition of what the working class is.
> 
> Spoilers: We do not currently have that definition



pfft all work class people drive trucks


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 9, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> pfft all work class people drive trucks



work class? Is this a new sociological lens you’ve developed?


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 9, 2021)

glitch hiker said:


> If you're going to assume I'm at most 11 years old then why are you bothering to even respond? Do you often have political discussions with pre teen kids?
> 
> What does any of this have to do with Nigel Farage claiming that if Leave lost by 48% instead of Remain there would be "unfinished business". Do you disagree he said that, as one of the leading influencers of the referendum and its campaign?
> 
> This clip was 6 years before the referendum, I don't even...


when your whole advisory vote/austerity schtick gets blown up


----------



## Ax^ (Jul 9, 2021)

seriously what the fuck is that supposed to mean meat?


----------



## glitch hiker (Jul 9, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> when your whole advisory vote/austerity schtick gets blown up


You claimed Leave was pro democracy. I explained to you, through the medium of Farage's hypocrisy, that your claim is unfounded. I also explained how positioning us as a third country we are now rule takers not rule makers. Please explain how any of that is "pro democracy.

I really have no idea what you mean by 'austerity schtick' either.


----------



## brogdale (Jul 9, 2021)

He doesn't know himself; cruel to ask him for explanation of the attempts at trolling.


----------



## andysays (Jul 9, 2021)

glitch hiker said:


> What does that mean?


It means we have been round and round the issue of the "advisory" nature of the referendum umpteen times before, and it's now time to finally put it to bed...


----------



## Ax^ (Jul 9, 2021)

Zebedee would never of voted for Brexit mind


----------



## brogdale (Jul 9, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> Zebedee would never of voted for Brexit mind


Er...he's capable of magical thinking.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jul 9, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> Exactly, it began to lose the working class.



Seem to remember a lot of disillusionment during the Kinnock era.

Perhaps you are young?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 9, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> do you keep bring up the Guardian because you pissed off you got booted of the GB news thread?
> 
> 
> 
> GB news not being part of the Woke MSM by fact ofit  just being shite


If gbn aren't woke does that mean they're kipping?


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 9, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> Seem to remember a lot of disillusionment during the Kinnock era.
> 
> Perhaps you are young?



Or just wrong...


----------



## Maggot (Jul 9, 2021)

Lord Frost again tries to blame others for the deal he negotiated and signed. Shameless. 









						Brexit: Lord Frost blames Theresa May for problems with Northern Ireland Protocol
					

Lord Frost tells members of the Northern Ireland Assembly that current issues with the Northern Ireland Protocol are "to a very large degree" the fault of negotiations under Boris Johnson's predecessor as prime minister.




					news.sky.com


----------



## Raheem (Jul 9, 2021)

Maggot said:


> Lord Frost again tries to blame others for the deal he negotiated and signed. Shameless.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


He should have started by saying: "I'm not a cunt, but..."


----------



## Ax^ (Jul 9, 2021)

So Boris and his team is trying to blame May

whislt he was the one who got brexit done



just feel for the poor orangemen if somehow they are forced to keep eating british sausages


----------



## Maggot (Jul 9, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> So Boris and his team is trying to blame May
> 
> whislt he was the one who got brexit done
> 
> ...


The problem is that they _won't _be able to eat British sausages if the protocol is implemented.


----------



## two sheds (Jul 9, 2021)

Even Cumberland?


----------



## Ax^ (Jul 9, 2021)

Maggot said:


> The problem is that they _won't _be able to eat British sausages if the protocol is implemented.



whilst i have no problem with the english banger sausage and this all is an allegory of how little westminster where interested in north ireland

north ireland has enough arguculture to provide the basics for its 1.8 populace farming up that way is potatoes, wheat, pigs and cows

also whilst as not as good as fenian sausages , the north ones are not half bad


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jul 9, 2021)

Maggot said:


> The problem is that they _won't _be able to eat British sausages if the protocol is implemented.



Surely Katie Hopkins can sneak some over there, turn left at Oxford Circus and keep going.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 9, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Surely Katie Hopkins can sneak some over there, turn left at Oxford Circus and keep going.


Turn Katie Hopkins into sausages and feed them to Nigel farage


----------



## Ax^ (Jul 9, 2021)

other way around 

matured sausages you say


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jul 9, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Turn Katie Hopkins into sausages and feed them to Nigel farage



I fear the Spheniscidae would suffer awful tummy trouble if fed a two-facist pellet.


----------



## Dystopiary (Jul 9, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> Zebedee would never of voted for Brexit mind


Or Dylan. He'd have wanted freedom of movement for sure.


----------



## Ax^ (Jul 9, 2021)

most likely dougal

he is more easily lead


----------



## Raheem (Jul 9, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> I fear the Spheniscidae would suffer awful tummy trouble if fed a two-facist pellet.


Sentence of the day.


----------



## MrSki (Jul 10, 2021)




----------



## Loose meat (Jul 10, 2021)




----------



## MrSki (Jul 10, 2021)

Well I went into my local Sainsburys last night & there were plenty of 'Sorry this product is currently unavailable' signs. Two things I wanted, Petit Pois & wild bird seed were out & I only wanted about six things. 
Nothing that I can't live with but think of the poor birds.


----------



## MrSki (Jul 10, 2021)

Well that's telling him.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jul 10, 2021)

MrSki said:


> Well that's telling him.



Admire her reserve.


----------



## andysays (Jul 10, 2021)

MrSki said:


> Well I went into my local Sainsburys last night & there were plenty of 'Sorry this product is currently unavailable' signs. Two things I wanted, Petit Pois & wild bird seed were out & I only wanted about six things.
> Nothing that I can't live with but think of the poor birds.


More proof that Leave voters don't just hate foreigners, they want all the birds to die as well


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 10, 2021)

MrSki said:


> Well I went into my local Sainsburys last night & there were plenty of 'Sorry this product is currently unavailable' signs. Two things I wanted, Petit Pois & wild bird seed were out & I only wanted about six things.
> Nothing that I can't live with but think of the poor birds.


You could almost think most deliveries come at night and there are night shifts involving shelf stacking.

But lets not be practicable - it's U75, after all - lets work on the assumption there will be legislation before Christmas allowing parents to eat their children.

All becasue .. you know ... bigots, racists, Hitler rations


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 10, 2021)

Does anyone remember the Gibralter Tescos ,or another chain, empty shelf photos , that did the rounds after we voted to leave?


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 10, 2021)

They do love an empty shelves photo. Bless  

It's right up there with the M20 lorry queues.


----------



## brogdale (Jul 10, 2021)

Hitler's back, I see.


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 10, 2021)

Shouldn't you be out taking Disaster photos of unemployed ski instructors


----------



## brogdale (Jul 10, 2021)

"Lets" (sic) being short for Let _*us.*_

That grates. If you don't like the discussion here, feel free to fuck off.


----------



## brogdale (Jul 10, 2021)

and, before you go, don't mistake me for a remain voter.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jul 10, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Does anyone remember the Gibralter Tescos ,or another chain, empty shelf photos , that did the rounds after we voted to leave?



Norn was having major issues I believe, as was, ironically, the republic.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 10, 2021)

Just got back from Sainsbury’s in King Heath. The bastards had everything on my list, which I’ve then had to lug home. One of the so called ‘bags for life’ dug into my hand slightly. There was a drizzly rain that I had to endure on the way back, even though it wasn’t raining when I set off.

I hope the brexiteers are happy..….


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 10, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Norn was having major issues I believe, as was, ironically, the republic.


I’m on about fake photos or photos that were taken in another context but used by the more emotional remainers to blame Brexit .


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 10, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Just got back from Sainsbury’s in King Heath. The bastards had everything on my list, which I’ve then had to lug home. One of the so called ‘bags for life’ dug into my hand slightly. There was a drizzly rain that I had to endure on the way back, even though it wasn’t raining when I set off.
> 
> I hope the brexiteers are happy..….


Maybe you could share your list for this unprecedented event


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 10, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Hitler's back, I see.


Loose meat is as articulate as a pimple on Hitler's arse


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 10, 2021)




----------



## NoXion (Jul 10, 2021)

They've got hardly any choice in terms of fizzy drinks at my local Tesco these days. A near-monopoly by Coca-Cola it seems. They had the cream soda but I had to go to my local corner shop to get the cherryade I wanted. God-damn you Brexit Ears, making me patronise smaller businesses instead! Is there no end to the indignities you have heaped upon me?!  

Allegedly there is a tomato shortage going on, but oddly this is not being reflected in my shopping habits either. A couple of times I remember getting substitutions (e.g. a tube of garlic and herb tomato puree instead of the regular stuff), and there was this one time they didn't have any at all, and I once again had to go my local shop to get some tinned puree. I prefer the puree in tubes because it's more convenient to use than having to scrape out a tin, but if this level of mild inconvenience is the best that Remainiacs can come up with then I'm not exactly quaking in anticipation of the apocalypse.

I wonder if people have become too reliant on supermarkets. During the Great Pandemic Bog Roll Incident, I distinctly remember that my local shop still had plenty of the stuff while the supermarket shelves were bare...


----------



## Dogsauce (Jul 10, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> So Boris and his team is trying to blame May
> 
> whislt he was the one who got brexit done
> 
> ...


Johnson’s deal was basically May’s deal but presented with a bit more bravado (‘oven ready’) and deception. Same red lines, same contradictions (NI etc.) that we‘re still dealing with. 

It‘s dishonest to pretend May had some kind of soft Brexit that was scuppered by hardcore remainers. Single market etc. was never on the table because of the anti-immigrant stuff.

Although I do sometimes wonder if the government taking a racist position on the result was because of people banging on about how the vote was fuelled by racism, May being a bit of a weather-vane politician.


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 10, 2021)

The final deal was tariff free, iirc?

None of that Norway light, Canada geese, whatever.


----------



## gosub (Jul 10, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Just got back from Sainsbury’s in King Heath. The bastards had everything on my list, which I’ve then had to lug home. One of the so called ‘bags for life’ dug into my hand slightly. There was a drizzly rain that I had to endure on the way back, even though it wasn’t raining when I set off.
> 
> I hope the brexiteers are happy..….



Sorry for your temporary lack of sunny uplands


----------



## extra dry (Jul 10, 2021)

transport nightmares


----------



## MrSki (Jul 10, 2021)

Glad to report that there was birdseed today & there are many happy chirping British birds in the garden, Still no petit pois though.   

Maybe there will soon be small English peas instead. One can only hope this is a benefit of Brexit.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 10, 2021)

MrSki said:


> Glad to report that there was birdseed today & there are many happy chirping British birds in the garden, Still no petit pois though.
> 
> Maybe there will soon be small English peas instead. One can only hope this is a benefit of Brexit.


Think you’ll find that the petite pois are actually English


----------



## MrSki (Jul 10, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Think you’ll find that the petite pois are actually English


I know that & am curious why they are in short supply. Put it down to distribution problems rather than supply but I expect they will be renamed to make eating my Chicken Kiev, chips & PP More of a Garlic stuffed chicken chips & small English peas.


----------



## Yossarian (Jul 10, 2021)

In a year or two this thread is just going to be people posting their shopping lists, the original subject forgotten.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jul 10, 2021)

MrSki said:


> Glad to report that there was birdseed today & there are many happy chirping British birds in the garden, Still no petit pois though.
> 
> Maybe there will soon be small English peas instead. One can only hope this is a benefit of Brexit.


Peas in our time


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 10, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> Peas in our time


Give peas a chance


----------



## krtek a houby (Jul 10, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Give peas a chance



EU peas keepers


----------



## Cerv (Jul 10, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> In a year or two this thread is just going to be people posting their shopping lists, the original subject forgotten.


shopping list? you mean their ration book coupons.


----------



## extra dry (Jul 10, 2021)

you think their will still be food around


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 10, 2021)

extra dry said:


> you think their will still be food around


----------



## Serene (Jul 10, 2021)

As at Belshazzars feast, the writing is on the wall.


----------



## Supine (Jul 10, 2021)

Cerv said:


> shopping list? you mean their ration book coupons.



all written in Russian no doubt


----------



## Serene (Jul 10, 2021)

Supine said:


> all written in Russian no doubt


It is amusing that Russias Wiki lists Russia as  a form of government in which "power is held by the people and their elected representatives" . Someone needs to tell Putin, he always looks like he needs a laugh.
A Federal, semi-presidential, constitutional, Republic.
The primary positions of power within a republic are attained through democracy or a mix of democracy with oligarchy or autocracy rather than being unalterably occupied by any given family lineage or group. Hmmmm.


----------



## Yossarian (Jul 10, 2021)

Must be a relief for the Tories that the bar for declaring Brexit a success has apparently been lowered to "Food is still available for purchase."


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 10, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> Must be a relief for the Tories that the bar for declaring Brexit a success has apparently been lowered to "Food is still available for purchase."


----------



## Supine (Jul 10, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> Must be a relief for the Tories that the bar for declaring Brexit a success has apparently been lowered to "Food is still available for purchase, unless you live in Northern Ireland."



fixed that for you


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 10, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> Must be a relief for the Tories that the bar for declaring Brexit a success has apparently been lowered to "Food is still available for purchase."


For Boris and Carrie Johnson it is a success as long as their heads remain attached to their necks


----------



## Raheem (Jul 10, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> Must be a relief for the Tories that the bar for declaring Brexit a success has apparently been lowered to "Food is still available for purchase."


Or that they can call vegetables by a French name and make us believe that there are still imports.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jul 10, 2021)

NoXion said:


> They've got hardly any choice in terms of fizzy drinks at my local Tesco these days. A near-monopoly by Coca-Cola it seems. They had the cream soda but I had to go to my local corner shop to get the cherryade I wanted. God-damn you Brexit Ears, making me patronise smaller businesses instead! Is there no end to the indignities you have heaped upon me?!
> 
> Allegedly there is a tomato shortage going on, but oddly this is not being reflected in my shopping habits either. A couple of times I remember getting substitutions (e.g. a tube of garlic and herb tomato puree instead of the regular stuff), and there was this one time they didn't have any at all, and I once again had to go my local shop to get some tinned puree. I prefer the puree in tubes because it's more convenient to use than having to scrape out a tin, but if this level of mild inconvenience is the best that Remainiacs can come up with then I'm not exactly quaking in anticipation of the apocalypse.
> 
> I wonder if people have become too reliant on supermarkets. During the Great Pandemic Bog Roll Incident, I distinctly remember that my local shop still had plenty of the stuff while the supermarket shelves were bare...



The homogeneity of supermarkets (particularly the Express versions) is very much one of my pet peeves about the modern world. Theres so little variety between them, the same chocolates, the same few brands of drinks.


----------



## Badgers (Jul 16, 2021)




----------



## krtek a houby (Jul 16, 2021)

BLT's are better without foppish lettuce and fake vegetable tomato, tbf


----------



## Spymaster (Jul 16, 2021)

Badgers said:


> View attachment 278720



Blimey, someone’s bitter!


----------



## mojo pixy (Jul 16, 2021)

Badgers said:


> View attachment 278720



They should try Morrisons. Plenty of lettuces and tomatoes in there.


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 16, 2021)

Badgers said:


> View attachment 278720




No context. No company logo, just a piece of card plonked on a window ... same old Project Fear?


----------



## fishfinger (Jul 16, 2021)

Badgers said:


> View attachment 278720


Fake news 



McDonald's warns of missing ingredients due to Brexit 'supply challenges'


----------



## Spymaster (Jul 16, 2021)

fishfinger said:


> Fake news


You reckon?


----------



## glitch hiker (Jul 16, 2021)

fishfinger said:


> Fake news
> 
> View attachment 278735
> 
> McDonald's warns of missing ingredients due to Brexit 'supply challenges'


BLT = Brexit Less Tomato


----------



## glitch hiker (Jul 16, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> No context. No company logo, just a piece of card plonked on a window ... same old Project Fear?





Loose meat said:


> No context. No company logo, just a piece of card plonked on a window ... same old Project Fear?


No. Why would they harm themselves that way?


----------



## Spymaster (Jul 16, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> No context. No company logo, just a piece of card plonked on a window ... same old Project Fear?



It's bollocks.


----------



## Badgers (Jul 16, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> You reckon?


----------



## two sheds (Jul 16, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> No context. No company logo, just a piece of card plonked on a window ... same old Project Fear?


You know that one's made up? Project Madeup Fear that one is.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 16, 2021)

glitch hiker said:


> BLT = Brexit Less Tomato



Tomato ruins a BLT: pissing insipid red juice all over the bread and the bacon. No place on a full English either.

The made up shortage of them is therefore, yet another benefit of Lexit.

I would demand the continuity remain loons thank us for delivering the mythical shortage, but it strikes me that they are the _type_ who enjoy tomato pissing out everywhere.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 16, 2021)

any update on the chronic petit pois shortage that has devastated Britain?


----------



## Spymaster (Jul 16, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> any update on the chronic petit pois shortage that has devastated Britain?



two sheds ?

How's this going?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 16, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> No context. No company logo, just a piece of card plonked on a window ... same old, same old Project Fear?


Transcribe a fart, it'd be better


----------



## Yossarian (Jul 16, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> The made up shortage of them is therefore, yet another benefit of Lexit.



That might be the first time I've seen the word Lexit since about 2019  - is there an alternative reality in which Prime Minister Jeremy Corbyn has nationalised tomato production?  Because I would definitely choose that one over both the one in which Remain won the referendum and the one where Boris Johnson brought in a hard Brexit after a landslide election win.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 16, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> That might be the first time I've seen the word Lexit since about 2019  - is there an alternative reality in which Prime Minister Jeremy Corbyn has nationalised tomato production?  Because I would definitely choose that one over both the one in which Remain won the referendum and the one where Boris Johnson brought in a hard Brexit after a landslide election win.


I suppose it might be possible to expand  tomato production in the UK as most tomatoes imported are from Holland whose climate is similar .


----------



## spitfire (Jul 16, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> any update on the chronic petit pois shortage that has devastated Britain?



yes.

Also my hipster fanta is not arriving either.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 16, 2021)

spitfire said:


> yes.
> 
> Also my hipster fanta is not arriving either.
> 
> View attachment 278759


Do like that San Pellogrini Blood Orange , never seen it over here.


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 16, 2021)

First they came for the ski instructors
Then they came for the creative tambourine shakers

Then they came for  the ... _checks notes_ ... lettuces


----------



## Yossarian (Jul 16, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> I suppose it might be possible to expand  tomato production in the UK as most tomatoes imported are from Holland whose climate is similar .



Never quite understood why Britain got so many Dutch tomatoes when it was in a free trade bloc with Italy and Spain and other countries where tomatoes taste like tomatoes.


----------



## editor (Jul 16, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> First they came for the ski instructors
> Then they came for the creative tambourine shakers
> 
> Then they came for  the ... _checks notes_ ... lettuces


Why are you obsessed with tambourine shakers? Weird. 

It might be a big laugh to you, but a lot of people in the creative industries now find themselves unemployed or struggling because of Brexit.


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 16, 2021)

editor said:


> Why are you obsessed with tambourine shakers? Weird.
> 
> It might be a big laugh to you, but a lot of people in the creative industries now find themselves unemployed or struggling because of Brexit.



It's a nonsense. Creative industries have never burgeoned like this before - several new theatres being built with 4K or more added  seats. Netflix, Disney, Amazon all throwing £billions at London and regions in new hubs and new productions. Google's new European HQ: a £1 billion building. It's a boom time like no other for creatives.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 16, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> Never quite understood why Britain got so many Dutch tomatoes when it was in a free trade bloc with Italy and Spain and other countries where tomatoes taste like tomatoes.


Yes they are tasless shite mainly. I think its because they are picked green then ripened with gas so have a longer supermarket life. We, the UK,  do quite a bit of trade with Morocco in  tomatoes as well. 

Do like a fresh tomato  with olive oil , black pepper and a bit of soft cheese.


----------



## glitch hiker (Jul 16, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> It's a nonsense. Creative industries have never burgeoned like this before - several new theatres being built with 4K or more added  seats. Netflix, Disney, Amazon all throwing £billions at London and regions in new hubs and new productions. Google's new European HQ: a £1 billion building. It's a boom time like no other for creatives.


citations needed


----------



## Raheem (Jul 16, 2021)

Moroccan tomatoes tend to be raised on groundwater, which is environmentally really bad.


----------



## editor (Jul 16, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> It's a nonsense. Creative industries have never burgeoned like this before - several new theatres being built with 4K or more added  seats. Netflix, Disney, Amazon all throwing £billions at London and regions in new hubs and new productions. Google's new European HQ: a £1 billion building. It's a boom time like no other for creatives.


I'm sure the multinational corporates are doing very well indeed - and I know you're a big fan.

But I'm talking about the grassroots/small to medium band music scene, where they've been utterly screwed by Brexit. It's all been very well documented here. Educate yourself:









						Brexit - impact on musicians, touring and the music/events industry
					

it seems to be to do with illegally downloaded material rather than streaming stuff. have you read the story?  So everyone pays all of them because of piracy?




					www.urban75.net


----------



## editor (Jul 16, 2021)

Meanwhile, the costs of Brexit continue to escalate:



> The government is set to spend twice as much on Brexit administration as its flagship Levelling-up Fund.
> 
> A total of £12 billion has been set aside for departments and devolved administrations to help them cope with the logistics of leaving the European Union. The new figure was published on Thursday, in the government’s annual statement on European Union spending.
> 
> ...











						Brexit admin costs dwarf Levelling Up Fund
					

Departments had to tap the Treasury for no-deal preparations, even though agreement was secured




					www.independent.co.uk


----------



## two sheds (Jul 16, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> two sheds ?
> 
> How's this going?


I put in five or six plants this year and got a total of about 12 peas.  So Brexit has been crap here. 

I think it was someone else with the petit pois though, but I will check if they have any proper peas at shop. .


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 16, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Do like a fresh tomato  with olive oil , black pepper and a bit of soft cheese.



Noice. I like them in a salad with roasted lemon, fennel, pomegranate and herbs grown on my balcony. I guess I’ll need to start growing my own tommies now though given the Brexit related famine I’ve been reading about on here.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jul 16, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> It's a nonsense. Creative industries have never burgeoned like this before - several new theatres being built with 4K or more added  seats. Netflix, Disney, Amazon all throwing £billions at London and regions in new hubs and new productions. Google's new European HQ: a £1 billion building. It's a boom time like no other for creatives.


 Hurrah for the corporate creatives!


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 16, 2021)

glitch hiker said:


> citations needed


 Pretty well everywhere in the media and not  this utterly depressed, niche backwater where the seemingly permanently socially awkward come to feel hip.


----------



## two sheds (Jul 16, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> Pretty well everywhere in the media and not  this utterly depressed, niche backwater where the seemingly permanently socially awkward come to feel hip.


Ah that's why you're here


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 16, 2021)

editor said:


> I'm sure the multinational corporates are doing very well indeed - and I know you're a big fan.
> 
> But I'm talking about the grassroots/small to medium band music scene, where they've been utterly screwed by Brexit. It's all been very well documented here. Educate yourself:
> 
> ...



Unlike 99% of successful bands. It's dawning on me you live in a self-created victmhood, where nothing is ever good and absolutely eveyrthing is going to shit.


----------



## editor (Jul 16, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> Pretty well everywhere in the media and not  this utterly depressed, niche backwater where the seemingly permanently socially awkward come to feel hip.


Oh trust me I don't want to be depressed, I want to be happily looking forward to a great post-Brexit future.

So tell me all the wonderful opportunities that Brexit is now providing for musicians/sound engineers/tour drivers/roadies etc who used to make a good living touring Europe.

Because right now I'm looking at a gig sheet stretching two years into the future _with not a single date_ where there used to be European tour after European tour booked.

So tell me why I should be banging my mythical tambourine with Brexit-spawned joy, Mr Positive.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jul 16, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> Pretty well everywhere in the media and not  this utterly depressed, niche backwater where the seemingly permanently socially awkward come to feel hip.



Everywhere, eh.

And you're back on urban, for what reason?


----------



## Raheem (Jul 16, 2021)

editor said:


> So tell me why I should be banging my mythical tambourine with Brexit-spawned joy, Mr Positive.


I read that Adele has just bought her third LA mansion. Some of that has got to trickle down, surely?


----------



## editor (Jul 16, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> Unlike 99% of successful bands. It's dawning on me you live in a self-created victmhood, where nothing is ever good and absolutely eveyrthing is going to shit.


Err, do you think successful bands are somehow created in a vacuum and emerge, ready formed? Almost all successful indie/rock/alt bands start off unsuccessful and then then develop via the gig circuit. Without that circuit they would be unlikely to achieve any success. 

I'd say my band are relatively successful too, releasing well received albums, touring the world and playing decent size shows in Europe - before Brexit fucked us over, of course. 

So what's your advice for bands who rely on lucrative European tours to keep afloat? Or should we just write off that entire creative sector and leave it to the major labels and Ed Sheeran to provide the music?


----------



## bimble (Jul 16, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> It's a boom time like no other for creatives.


This wins the thread I think, brilliant. Totally unhinged.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jul 16, 2021)

bimble said:


> This wins the thread I think, brilliant. Totally unhinged.



That's what happens with meat off the hook


----------



## glitch hiker (Jul 16, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> Pretty well everywhere in the media and not  this utterly depressed, niche backwater where the seemingly permanently socially awkward come to feel hip.


cool, so shouldn't be hard for you to provide a link or two.


----------



## bimble (Jul 16, 2021)

I was curious but my googling for New Theatres was just all about hospitals adding operatng rooms to make space for the covid wards ☹️ . Maybe it’s Creatives that are building them idk.


----------



## editor (Jul 16, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> Unlike 99% of successful bands. It's dawning on me you live in a self-created victmhood, where nothing is ever good and absolutely eveyrthing is going to shit.


Yeah! It's boom time alright!









						For UK Bands, Touring Europe Is Now a Highway to Brexit Hell - Karmasangram
					

LONDON — When British rock band Two Door Cinema Club began running shows across Europe a decade ago, three members




					karmasangram.com


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 16, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> Everywhere, eh.
> 
> And you're back on urban, for what reason?


Bad pennies always come back


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jul 16, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> Pretty well everywhere in the media and not  this utterly depressed, niche backwater where the seemingly permanently socially awkward come to feel hip.



Hey!

I do not come here to feel hip.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jul 16, 2021)

bimble said:


> This wins the thread I think, brilliant. Totally unhinged.



In fairness creativity does thrive in times of darkness. Look at all the cool stuff the 80s produced.

And all the shit stuff but focus on stuff like 2000AD or something


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jul 16, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> In fairness creativity does thrive in times of darkness. Look at all the cool stuff the 80s produced.
> 
> And all the shit stuff but focus on stuff like 2000AD or something




But in the 80's they had free movement across Europe.




Oh no that's not right. Darn, what ever did they do?


----------



## editor (Jul 16, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> In fairness creativity does thrive in times of darkness. Look at all the cool stuff the 80s produced.
> 
> And all the shit stuff but focus on stuff like 2000AD or something



It's absolutely nothing like the 80s any more and the kind of creativity that thrived then was very much localised and not big money-generating. Plus there was the dole


----------



## editor (Jul 16, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> But in the 80's they had free movement across Europe.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Fewer bands toured Europe then and it was a shitload more  of a pain in the arse too, having to produce a carnet and getting your van searched at customs. 

Things were made massively easier and more affordable when we joined the EU.  But now we're out of the EU, things have got massively shittier again.


----------



## Yossarian (Jul 16, 2021)

bimble said:


> This wins the thread I think, brilliant. Totally unhinged.



Only six months to go until the Festival of Brexit!


----------



## Raheem (Jul 16, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Hey!
> 
> I do not come here to feel hip.


I come here to not feel so bad about being unhip.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jul 16, 2021)

editor said:


> It's absolutely nothing like the 80s any more and the kind of creativity that thrived then was very much localised and not big money-generating. Plus there was the dole




incompetent Labour
untoppable tories
government obsessed with Neoliberal shite
economic uncertainty
media moguls running rampant
racist doggerel on the rise
awful fashion

Sounds like the 80s to me, time to direct that anger into something beautiful


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 16, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> incompetent Labour
> *untoppable tories*
> government obsessed with Neoliberal shite
> economic uncertainty
> ...


I think you'll find Tories are not untoppable and as evidence I submit airey neave, Ian gow, and the mp no one ever remembers who was killed at Brighton


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 16, 2021)

bimble said:


> This wins the thread I think, brilliant. Totally unhinged.



Big claim on this thread. What do you think is the most unhinged post by a continuity remain space cadet? We can organise a run off between that and loose teeth


----------



## bimble (Jul 16, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Big claim on this thread. What do you think is the most unhinged post by a continuity remain space cadet? We can organise a run off between that and loose teeth


I don’t know. Meat twat is great though, he’s not even a parody he is just properly and fervently on yr side. I’m a fan.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 16, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Big claim on this thread. What do you think is the most unhinged post by a continuity remain space cadet? We can organise a run off between that and loose teeth


Need a poll there’s quite a few contenders


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 16, 2021)

bimble said:


> I don’t know. Meat twat is great though, he’s not even a parody he is just properly and fervently on yr side. I’m a fan.


Any updates on your mate who owns a static home in Spain or the neighbour that runs some business enterprise in the EU ?


----------



## editor (Jul 16, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> incompetent Labour
> untoppable tories
> government obsessed with Neoliberal shite
> economic uncertainty
> ...


It terms of the creative industries, it's really not, you know. Different era, different ethos, different politics, different opportunities.


----------



## bimble (Jul 16, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Any updates on your mate who owns a static home in Spain or the neighbour that runs some business enterprise in the EU ?


yes! Old bloke in liverpool he's not going to retire to spain anymore but i am not clear why, he's not well. Arsehole neighbours i have no idea, they're away but i dont think they can go to their spare house in france to teach yoga cos they've refused the bill gates 5g vaccine.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 16, 2021)

bimble said:


> I don’t know.



Have a scroll through for us. There’s some absolute crackers. I think this needs to be a collaborative effort.

Loose teeth v continuity remain space cadet. For the win.


----------



## editor (Jul 16, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> continuity remain space cadet.


Who or what is that?


----------



## bimble (Jul 16, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Have a scroll through for us. There’s some absolute crackers. I think this needs to be a collaborative effort.
> 
> Loose teeth v continuity remain space cadet. For the win.


I’d rather alphabetise my luxury foreign cheese collection than trawl through this thread thanks.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 16, 2021)

bimble said:


> I’d rather alphabetise my luxury foreign cheese collection than trawl through this thread thanks.



can you still buy cheese given the great Brexit famine?


----------



## bimble (Jul 16, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> can you still buy cheese given the great Brexit famine?


Yes, you just need to pay a bit more, which is fine for posh guardian readers such as myself.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 16, 2021)

bimble said:


> Yes, you just need to pay a bit more, which is fine for posh guardian readers such as myself.



pilgrims choice (350g) extra mature is £2.49 at Tesco’s. Mind you if we’d voted to remain they’d probably pay us to eat it


----------



## bimble (Jul 16, 2021)

Here’s one for the competition. I think brexit is to blame for the fact that with mad high world beating infection rates we are abandoning all restrictions on Monday for Freedom Day. If government wasn’t stuffed full of crazy brexiteers with their magical thinking, wilful optimism & exceptionalism we wouldn’t be embarking on this mad experiment / leap of faith. If I get long covid it’s brexits fault.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 16, 2021)

bimble said:


> Here’s one for the completion. I think brexit is to blame for the fact that with mad high world beating infection rates we’re abandoning all restrictions on Monday. If government wasn’t stuffed full of crazy brexiteers with their magical thinking & exceptionalism we wouldn’t be embarking on this mad experiment / leap of faith.



solid. But no cigar with this level of competition


----------



## Supine (Jul 16, 2021)

(((Continuity remain)))

Better than being a supporter of right wing nut job nationalist populist brexiteer idiots from eton. Not that Johnson is a brexiteer, he just wants the power at any expense.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 16, 2021)

Supine said:


> (((Continuity remain)))
> 
> Better than being a supporter of right wing nut job nationalist populist brexiteer idiots from eton. Not that Johnson is a brexiteer, he just wants the power at any expense.


Is this a formal request for entry into the vote off?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 16, 2021)

Supine said:


> (((Continuity remain)))
> 
> Better than being a supporter of right wing nut job nationalist populist brexiteer idiots from eton. Not that Johnson is a brexiteer, he just wants the power at any expense.


i understand there's an auld military dictum about not reinforcing defeat. and it seems to me that being a continuity remainer is reinforcing the defeat of 2016 with further defeats down the line because should we ever rejoin the european union the auld ways will no longer obtain. we'd have to swallow losing the pound. the fairly privileged position we formerly enjoyed will be gone. we will not be the prodigal returned but something the cat dragged in.


----------



## Supine (Jul 16, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Is this a formal request for entry into the vote off?



I’m not after awards but thanks for the consideration. Brexiteers have already proven they vote wrong so I’d imagine this vote also not working


----------



## bimble (Jul 16, 2021)

Is that what continuity remain is supposed to mean? The idea that we could rejoin and just .. continue as we were like nothing had happened ?  Thought it was just a pretentious word for Remoaner.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jul 16, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> can you still buy cheese given the great Brexit famine?



Foreign muck like Yarg


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 16, 2021)

bimble said:


> Is that what continuity remain is supposed to mean? The idea that we could rejoin and just .. continue as we were like nothing had happened ?  Thought it was just a pretentious word for Remoaner.



I’ve already explained the concept of continuity remain….


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jul 16, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> i understand there's an auld military dictum about not reinforcing defeat. and it seems to me that being a continuity remainer is reinforcing the defeat of 2016 with further defeats down the line because should we ever rejoin the european union the auld ways will no longer obtain. we'd have to swallow losing the pound. the fairly privileged position we formerly enjoyed will be gone. we will not be the prodigal returned but something the cat dragged in.




^^^^this is what they fail to grasp, there is no going back so either spend forever bleating impotently or get on with dealing with reality. The hundreds of pages of threads on this shit suggest that the grasp that some have on reality is shonky, at best.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jul 16, 2021)

bimble said:


> Is that what continuity remain is supposed to mean? The idea that we could rejoin and just .. continue as we were like nothing had happened ?  Thought it was just a pretentious word for Remoaner.



From its usage on here I assume continuity remain is laughing at anyone saying look at this fucking shower of shit we’ve got to deal with.

No matter how bad the news it’s always great news for The Working Class and only ever bad news for Middle Class Luvvies.

Its how I imagine Boris propaganda speeches go tbh, which saves me having to listen to them


----------



## Yossarian (Jul 16, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I’ve already explained the concept of continuity remain….



Might be tough to find this explanation since you use the term in every post.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jul 16, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> ^^^^this is what they fail to grasp, there is no going back so either spend forever bleating impotently or get on with dealing with reality. The hundreds of pages of threads on this shit suggest that the grasp that some have on reality is shonky, at best.



I’m more than happy to deal with it but I reserve the right to complain like a motherfucker.



I’ve more than accommodated Lexit as a viable position but this ain’t what we’re living in. Eventually brexit might lead to socialist utopia and a blow to capital but right now it’s not so complaining is a fucking right.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 16, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Foreign muck like Yarg



Thinking of you at this difficult time.









						The ultimate guide to middle class revision snacks
					

Meal deals are for peasants




					thetab.com


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jul 16, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Thinking of you at this difficult time.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Haven’t had a meal deal in 18 months but it’s not thanks to brexit


----------



## bimble (Jul 16, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I’ve already explained the concept of continuity remain….


Yes you said it was two blokes on Twitter I think . A non existent movement that seems to haunt you.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 16, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Haven’t had a meal deal in 18 months but it’s not thanks to brexit



Middle classes forced into common thieving during the great Brexit cheese famine:









						Middle-class shoplifters stealing cheese and wine
					

Store owners are reporting the rise of the middle-class shoplifter - as affluent criminals raid stores for luxury items such as cheese, wine and chocolate.




					www.sunderlandecho.com


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jul 16, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> I’m more than happy to deal with it but I reserve the right to complain like a motherfucker.




Your choice, a synonym for complain is moan.


----------



## bimble (Jul 16, 2021)

The one time in my life I got caught shoplifting it was in fact cheese. But it was in spain. So the moral of the story is fucked.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jul 16, 2021)

bimble said:


> The one time in my life I got caught shoplifting it was in fact cheese. But it was in spain. So the moral of the story is fucked.




When you visit your folks try the five-fingered discount there, the Swiss are fucking mad for assuming no one would do it, criminal not to really.


----------



## bimble (Jul 16, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> When you visit your folks try the five-fingered discount there, the Swiss are fucking mad for assuming no one would do it, criminal not to really.


yep, they had those self scan hand held things in the supermarkets , that you use your self whilst sauntering around putting stuff in yr bags, years before i saw them over here.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jul 16, 2021)

bimble said:


> yep, they had those self scan hand held things in the supermarkets , that you use your self whilst sauntering around putting stuff in yr bags, years before i saw them over here.




I once stuffed six Swiss Army knives, quite big ones, in my pocket in a shop in Crans Montana, the two assistants never gave me a glance, the mugs.


----------



## bimble (Jul 16, 2021)

six? fucking hell.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jul 16, 2021)

bimble said:


> six? fucking hell.



Switzerland was more expensive than I imagined, I needed to fund the trip somehow...


----------



## bimble (Jul 16, 2021)

it is insanely expensive. But minimum wage shelf stacker jobs etc are about 4 x more than here, its own little world. Befitting of a Remoaner. i have a swiss passport and everything.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jul 16, 2021)

bimble said:


> it is insanely expensive. But minimum wage shelf stacker jobs etc are about 4 x more than here, its own little world. Befitting of a Remoaner. i have a swiss passport and everything.



I like their passports, rubbery...


----------



## bimble (Jul 16, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> I like their passports, rubbery...


They are rubbery and oddly medical yes. cant decide whether to try to use the swiss one, to get in there, from covid island, or whether i'd get impounded and sent to a detention center upon return because brexit.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jul 16, 2021)

bimble said:


> They are rubbery and oddly medical yes. cant decide whether to try to use the swiss one, to get in there, from covid island, or whether i'd get impounded and sent to a detention center upon return because brexit.




You are allowed in now with either UK or Swiss passport, just don't wear a niqab or burka, or the racist cunts will arrest you.


----------



## bimble (Jul 16, 2021)

here's an own goal.
interesting and shitty judgement yesterday.








						EU companies can ban employees wearing headscarves, court rules
					

Prohibition can only be implemented against all religious symbols as part of a policy of neutrality




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## 8ball (Jul 16, 2021)

bimble said:


> here's an own goal.
> interesting and shitty judgement yesterday.
> 
> 
> ...



If they want to do a proper culture wars-tastic barney they should ban facescarves.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 16, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Foreign muck like Yarg


I do like that stuff


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 16, 2021)

bimble said:


> here's an own goal.
> interesting and shitty judgement yesterday.
> 
> 
> ...


Yes posted it up on the EU watch thread the other day


----------



## 8ball (Jul 16, 2021)

I wonder whether a Star Wars t-shirt would count given the census figures.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jul 16, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Yes posted it up on the EU watch thread the other day




It's confusing cos a vote to leave the EU is racist, whereas a vote for the EU is not. Yet the EU is racist.


----------



## bimble (Jul 16, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> It's confusing cos a vote to leave the EU is racist, whereas a vote for the EU is not. Yet the EU is racist



Loads of racists did vote remain but they were just the second rate racists, the wishy washy apologetic deluded ones,  the proper self aware Look After Our Own type racists they were brexit all the way.
this little graph has been a thing for me this week, look at the tidy match between leavers and conservatives.


----------



## two sheds (Jul 16, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> I do like that stuff











						Cornish Yarg
					

A delicate, yoghurty cheese, which is wrapped in nettle leaves. Cornish Yarg tends to have a fluffy textured centre with lactic flavours and a buttery, creamy breakdown under the slightly earthy edible rind.




					www.nealsyarddairy.co.uk
				




yum


----------



## editor (Jul 16, 2021)

bimble said:


> Loads of racists did vote remain but they were just the second rate racists, the wishy washy apologetic deluded ones,  the proper self aware Look After Our Own type racists they were brexit all the way.
> this little graph has been a thing for me this week, look at the tidy match between leavers and conservatives.
> View attachment 278856


A huge 81% of leave voters think it's right to slash foreign aid. No surprise there then.


----------



## bimble (Jul 16, 2021)

tbh the fact that most BRITONS agree was the thing that's most done my head in this week, the week in which parliament voted to cut foreign aid,  but yeah, the tory & leaver equivalence is .. striking.
They are the same people.
99 % of leave voters are basically tories .


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jul 16, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Cornish Yarg
> 
> 
> A delicate, yoghurty cheese, which is wrapped in nettle leaves. Cornish Yarg tends to have a fluffy textured centre with lactic flavours and a buttery, creamy breakdown under the slightly earthy edible rind.
> ...



It's lovely stuff


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 16, 2021)

bimble said:


> Loads of racists did vote remain but they were just the second rate racists, the wishy washy apologetic deluded ones,  the proper self aware Look After Our Own type racists they were brexit all the way.
> this little graph has been a thing for me this week, look at the tidy match between leavers and conservatives.
> View attachment 278856


Please no more same old graphs going over the same old arguments . It’s like a squeaky wheel .


----------



## Raheem (Jul 16, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> It's confusing cos a vote to leave the EU is racist, whereas a vote for the EU is not. Yet the EU is racist.


Not the EU, in this case. It's the ECHR which the UK is still part of.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jul 16, 2021)

Raheem said:


> Not the EU, in this case. It's the ECHR which the UK is still part of.




Phew!


----------



## bimble (Jul 16, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Please no more same old graphs going over the same old arguments . It’s like a squeaky wheel .


its not an argument, its just a fact. the 1% of non-tory leave voters they're great people i'm sure its just that all they did was help.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jul 16, 2021)

bimble said:


> this little graph has been a thing for me this week, look at the tidy match between leavers and conservatives.
> View attachment 278856




Do you think cutting the overseas aid budget is racist?


----------



## bimble (Jul 16, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Do you think cutting the overseas aid budget is racist?


It’s Look After Our Own. So more parochial than racist but close yeah. In my opinion the vast majority there, of conservative - leave (same people) would have said yes to cutting benefits to Our Own too.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jul 16, 2021)

bimble said:


> It’s Look After Our Own. So more parochial than racist but close yeah. In my opinion the vast majority there, of conservative - leave (same people) would have said yes to cutting benefits to Our Own too.



Is Europe a massive ball of racism? where is the line drawn? Really not having a pop at you, see many EU states behaving in outright racist ways but getting a free pass whilst we get branded total racists cos of a 'feeling' that some people get.


----------



## bimble (Jul 16, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Is Europe a massive ball of racism? where is the line drawn? Really not having a pop at you, see many EU states behaving in outright racist ways but getting a free pass whilst we get branded total racists cos of a 'feeling' that some people get.


Eh? My point was just, conservative voters and leave voters are 99% the same people. They’re more likely to be the self aware Look After Our Own type of racists. I think we are all racists.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jul 16, 2021)

bimble said:


> Eh? My point was just, conservative voters and leave voters are 99% thr same people. They’re quite racist.



Jeepers, 99% quite racist. I hadn't seen studies suggesting that. Bad stuff.


----------



## Supine (Jul 16, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Do you think cutting the overseas aid budget is racist?



Short sighted. Unempathatic. Callous. Small minded. Not racist imo.


----------



## bimble (Jul 16, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Jeepers, 99% quite racist. I hadn't seen studies suggesting that. Bad stuff.



not what I said come on, The point was just, if you voted leave but are not a conservative voter you’re a 1% , an iinconsequential curiosity.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jul 16, 2021)

bimble said:


> not what I said come on, The point was just, if you voted leave but are not a conservative voter you’re a 1% , an iinconsequential curiosity.



99% of those who voted leave are conservative, with a small c. I never knew.


----------



## Supine (Jul 16, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> 99% of those who voted leave are conservative, with a small c. I never knew.



i thought they were all massive c’s


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 16, 2021)

bimble said:


> not what I said come on, The point was just, if you voted leave but are not a conservative voter you’re a 1% , an iinconsequential curiosity.


Found my place in life , but heartened by the fact that that the voice of the 1 % was so effective.


----------



## two sheds (Jul 16, 2021)

-1% +1% = 2% you think they made the difference?


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 16, 2021)

two sheds said:


> -1% +1% = 2% you think they made the difference?


Just working on the Bimble formula tbh  . Of course before Bimble and some others on here discovered politics the  majority left's view was anti the EU/EEC/Common Market. It was the defeat of the miners strike that led many of the left to start backing the EU as some sort of shield against the Tories.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jul 16, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Do you think cutting the overseas aid budget is racist?



And does anyone really need overseas aid, at the end of the day?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 16, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> And does anyone really need overseas aid, at the end of the day?


Do you think they're exaggerating the number of people who'll die because of it being cut?


----------



## Saul Goodman (Jul 16, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> And does anyone really need overseas aid, at the end of the day?


I wouldn't mind some.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jul 16, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Do you think they're exaggerating the number of people who'll die because of it being cut?


But the graphics show us it's what the people want.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 16, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Just working on the Bimble formula tbh  . Of course before Bimble and some others on here discovered politics the  majority left's view was anti the EU/EEC/Common Market. It was the defeat of the miners strike that led many of the left to start backing the EU as some sort of shield against the Tories.



And let’s not forget left unions - like RMT, BFAWU, CWU and even the piss poor leadership of Unite couldn’t be characterised as remain - remain opposed to the EU.

Either poor Bimble has banged their head or it’s an entry into the poll on behalf of the CRSC faction….


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 16, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> But the graphics show us it's what the people want.


I'd rather rely on something stronger than graphics


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 16, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> And let’s not forget left unions - like RMT, BFAWU, CWU and even the piss poor leadership of Unite couldn’t be characterised as remain - remain opposed to the EU.
> 
> Either poor Bimble has banged their head or it’s an entry into the poll on behalf of the CRSC faction….


Or both


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 16, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Or both



A very fair point


----------



## krtek a houby (Jul 16, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> I'd rather rely on something stronger than graphics


Of course. Shouldn't be facetious over this, obviously. But just what are Tory voters voting for, if not these callous cuts?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 17, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> Of course. Shouldn't be facetious over this, obviously. But just what are Tory voters voting for, if not these callous cuts?


You seem to have a problem with your n key


----------



## brogdale (Jul 17, 2021)

Given that Jenkyns is one of the few people alive capable of making Andrew Rosindell look like a smart person, I think we can now be certain that the supply side issues of the UK haulage sector are due to the withdrawal from the supra-state.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jul 17, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> But the graphics show us it's what the people want.



They'd also like to bring back hanging and the birch


----------



## Badgers (Jul 18, 2021)

'High Demand'


----------



## two sheds (Jul 18, 2021)

Badgers said:


> 'High Demand'
> 
> View attachment 279346


The apocalypse is near


----------



## Badgers (Jul 18, 2021)

Sunlit Upland Shelves


----------



## Badgers (Jul 18, 2021)

two sheds said:


> The apocalypse is near


Nothing to do with Brexit of course : it is all the fault of the evil EU and Covid-19 which the government have totally under control.


----------



## two sheds (Jul 18, 2021)

We'll have to survive on dogfood


----------



## discokermit (Jul 18, 2021)

frazzles, french fries, wheat crunchies, monster munch, chipsticks and skips. what more do you want? you fucking cry babies.


----------



## Raheem (Jul 18, 2021)

discokermit said:


> frazzles, french fries, wheat crunchies, monster munch, chipsticks and skips. what more do you want? you fucking cry babies.


TBF, Quavers can legitimately be viewed as a human right.


----------



## two sheds (Jul 18, 2021)

Raheem said:


> TBF, Quavers can legitimately be viewed as a human right.


And there are none on those shelves


----------



## discokermit (Jul 18, 2021)

Raheem said:


> TBF, Quavers can legitimately be viewed as a human right.


i missed off quavers as its the prawn cocktail, which i dont like. hula hoops are a bit shit as well.


----------



## discokermit (Jul 18, 2021)

two sheds said:


> And there are none on those shelves


look again.


----------



## brogdale (Jul 18, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Nothing to do with Brexit of course : it is all the fault of the evil EU and Covid-19 which the government have totally under control.


Maybe the robots have crashed into each other...


----------



## Supine (Jul 18, 2021)

two sheds said:


> We'll have to survive on dogfood


Squirrels


----------



## Raheem (Jul 18, 2021)

discokermit said:


> look again.


Pink Quavers are no Quavers at all.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jul 18, 2021)

Could really fucking scarf a bag of wheat crunchies or frazzles about now.


----------



## two sheds (Jul 18, 2021)

discokermit said:


> look again.


I . don't . think . so .

Dog food dog teeth thingies but I see no quavers 

nor hobnobs.


----------



## discokermit (Jul 18, 2021)

all those cats across britain, sad at their limited meal choices. i wish i could go back in time and change my vote now. sad face.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jul 18, 2021)

two sheds said:


> I . don't . think . so .
> 
> Dog food dog teeth thingies but I see no quavers
> 
> nor *hobnobs*.



Jesus fucking Christ it's just got real


----------



## discokermit (Jul 18, 2021)

two sheds said:


> I . don't . think . so .
> 
> Dog food dog teeth thingies but I see no quavers
> 
> nor hobnobs.


to the left of the frazzles.


----------



## two sheds (Jul 18, 2021)

pah


----------



## Ax^ (Jul 18, 2021)

discokermit said:


> frazzles, french fries, wheat crunchies, monster munch, chipsticks and skips. what more do you want? you fucking cry babies.



no Tatyo

ffs the worlds about to end


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jul 18, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> no Tatyo
> 
> ffs the worlds about to end



We don't generally do Tatyo in the UK. 

We are a hollow and bitter nation as a result


----------



## Steel Icarus (Jul 18, 2021)

Had some wheat crunchies out of a vending machine at work the other week for the first time in a decade. Fucking banging.


----------



## two sheds (Jul 18, 2021)

_British_ wheat crunchies were they?   eh? eh?


----------



## Ax^ (Jul 18, 2021)

saying that you can buy north ireland Tatyo in Asda


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 18, 2021)

S☼I said:


> Had some wheat crunchies out of a vending machine at work the other week for the first time in a decade. Fucking banging.


Alan Green merging uncomfortably  with Alan Partridge


----------



## krtek a houby (Jul 18, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> saying that you can buy north ireland Tatyo in Asda


And in Morrisons and one of the stores near the Brighton train in Victoria.

Used to be able to get the first Tayto in Mandy's in Tooting.


----------



## discokermit (Jul 18, 2021)

tayto always tastes better in ireland.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jul 18, 2021)

discokermit said:


> tayto always tastes better in ireland.


Yeah but when you're not able to get home and someone hands you not one, but two packets of Tayto thousands of miles from Ireland... it's a taste that can bring tears to your eyes


----------



## Ax^ (Jul 18, 2021)

discokermit said:


> tayto always tastes better in ireland.



the one in the south are made by a seperate company to the one made in the north so might explain the difference

saying that try Kings next time you in the republic the better cheese and onion


----------



## discokermit (Jul 19, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> the one in the south are made by a seperate company to the one made in the north so might explain the difference
> 
> saying that try Kings next time you in the republic the better cheese and onion


there is no difference. i was making a jokey comparison to guiness.


----------



## Ax^ (Jul 19, 2021)

since they stopped brewing guiness in the uk, the taste difference is less noticable 

 but kings are the better cheese and onion..


----------



## krtek a houby (Jul 19, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> the one in the south are made by a seperate company to the one made in the north so might explain the difference
> 
> saying that try Kings next time you in the republic the better cheese and onion


The southern Tayto was the first, sometime in the 50s and then the northern variant was rolled out a couple of years later. Separate companies (afaik) and somehow, they came to an agreement. Taste-wise, would rate the original over the younger version. But it's probably a psychological thing.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jul 19, 2021)




----------



## Raheem (Jul 19, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> View attachment 279366


Judging by the position of the fella's hands, that's a bag of plain on the left, and a bag of Nazi on the right.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jul 19, 2021)

Raheem said:


> Judging by the position of the fella's hands, that a bag of plain on the left, and a bag of Nazi on the right.



Unfortunate positioning of crisp bag on the right (where else)


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jul 19, 2021)

Raheem said:


> Judging by the position of the fella's hands, that a bag of plain on the left, and a bag of Nazi on the right.



De Velera says Heil Dönitz


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 19, 2021)

Certainly impressed by the narrtive combination of post-Brexit lorry queues at Calais and Dover becasue, you know, it's all impossible, and post Brexit shortages of ... _checks notes_ ... drivers.

We seem to be absent a montage of the two narratives side-by-side ..


----------



## bimble (Jul 19, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> Certainly impressed by the narrtive combination of post-Brexit lorry queues at Calais and Dover becasue, you know, it's all impossible, and post Brexit shortages of ... _checks notes_ ... drivers.
> 
> We seem to be absent a montage of the two narratives side-by-side ..


woah you are right ! Why don't we ever see photos of not all that many lorries queueing up at the border ! genius.
Do you think maybe both of them - the stuff about customs checks existing now and the story about not enough lorry drivers - both of them are lies made up by bitter Remoaners?


----------



## krtek a houby (Jul 19, 2021)

He'll have to check his notes


----------



## krtek a houby (Jul 19, 2021)

Oops, sorry. He left them in the impossible lorry with the non-existent driver. 

Loose Meat will return in Try Another Day.


----------



## brogdale (Jul 19, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> He'll have to check his notes


----------



## Ax^ (Jul 19, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> View attachment 279366



kings crisps still taste better with batch loaf

*shakes fist at sky


----------



## NoXion (Jul 19, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Sunlit Upland Shelves
> 
> View attachment 279347



Sometimes shelves aren't immediately restocked and you might have to shop somewhere else. The horror!


----------



## krtek a houby (Jul 19, 2021)

NoXion said:


> Sometimes shelves aren't immediately restocked and you might have to shop somewhere else. The horror!



Which reminds... are the much loved day trips to Callais still a thing?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jul 19, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> Which reminds... are the much loved day trips to Callais still a thing?



Not right now cos Covid, but duty free between the UK and EU is back on.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 19, 2021)

NoXion said:


> Sometimes shelves aren't immediately restocked and you might have to shop somewhere else. The horror!



This is one of those weird alternative realities constructed on social media. One on hand we have lived reality: which is people going to the shop to buy food. On the other hand we have a social media campaign (this one organised by Continuity Remain Space Cadets) that aims to tell us our lived reality is wrong and there are food shortages caused by Brexit.


----------



## Ax^ (Jul 19, 2021)

can I get a bag of kings crisp in London or batch loaf


fuck you Boris and the brexiters


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Jul 19, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> Certainly impressed by the narrtive combination of post-Brexit lorry queues at Calais and Dover becasue, you know, it's all impossible, and post Brexit shortages of ... _checks notes_ ... drivers.
> 
> We seem to be absent a montage of the two narratives side-by-side ..



Yeah, you still sound like a massive wanker when you do the_ checks notes_ thing.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 19, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> can I get a bag of kings crisp in London or batch loaf
> 
> 
> fuck you Boris and the brexiters


----------



## Raheem (Jul 19, 2021)

King hell.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 19, 2021)

Doctor Carrot said:


> Yeah, you still sound like a massive wanker when you do the_ checks notes_ thing.



Yes, I've checked my notes and based on my reading of them have concluded that he sounds like a massive twat when he does it


----------



## NoXion (Jul 19, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> This is one of those weird alternative realities constructed on social media. One on hand we have lived reality: which is people going to the shop to buy food. On the other hand we have a social media campaign (this one organised by
> Continuity Remain Space Cadets) that aims to tell us our lived reality is wrong and there are food shortages caused by Brexit.



It also ignores the fact that the "just in time" methods that have been used for stock management for at least ten years now, are very easily disrupted by shit like the pandemic and cargo ships getting stuck in the Suez.





__





						The end of just-in-time? | Reuters Events | Supply Chain & Logistics Business Intelligence
					

The story goes that when Eiji Toyoda, CEO of Toyota, visited American car manufacturers in the 1950s, he was not impressed. Despite Detroit being at the height of its powers, Toyoda saw profligate waste and an opportunity to innovate. This was the start of the famous process of Just-In-Time...




					www.reutersevents.com
				




Why, it's almost as if international logistics is hard, and is made more fragile by having methodologies which demand optimal conditions at all times.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 19, 2021)

NoXion said:


> It also ignores the fact that the "just in time" methods that have been used for stock management for at least ten years now, are very easily disrupted by shit like the pandemic and cargo ships getting stuck in the Suez.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The real story is how well that supply chain model has stood up to a global pandemic. Food shortages would be an entirely predictable outcome given lockdowns, closed borders and staff shortages caused by illness/isolating etc. Those of us who have criticized the just in time model have been proven wrong over the last 18 months. 

The other story is, of course, that sometimes shops offer a certain product and people buy all of that product meaning that there is temporally none of the product available and it is, to use a technical phrase, 'sold out'. Talking of which I am having a BLT for my dinner today having gone searching the food famine wastelands of Birmingham for some lettuce and tomato and having found plenty in the first shop I went in.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jul 19, 2021)

It's not like the UK is the DPRK.

The people there know all about that kind of deprivation only too well.

Of course, they don't get to question alleged food shortages.

There needs to be more spirit of the blitz.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jul 19, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> It's not like the UK is the DPRK.
> 
> The people there know all about that kind of deprivation only too well.
> 
> ...



Illegal black market pork?


----------



## krtek a houby (Jul 19, 2021)

Keep calm and carry swans


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 19, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> It's not like the UK is the DPRK.
> 
> The people there know all about that kind of deprivation only too well.
> 
> ...


Any idea if there is a petit pois shortage in the DPRK?


----------



## krtek a houby (Jul 19, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Any idea if there is a petit pois shortage in the DPRK?



Peas will not be achieved by counter revolutionary means


----------



## Aladdin (Jul 19, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> the one in the south are made by a seperate company to the one made in the north so might explain the difference
> 
> saying that try Kings next time you in the republic the better cheese and onion



Just buy the proper bags of Tayto. Not the 6 packs. 
The best go into the proper single bags. They are unbeatable...

😁


----------



## Aladdin (Jul 19, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> kings crisps still taste better with batch loaf
> 
> *shakes fist at sky


Once you pick out the burnt edge and green tinged ones....yes...


----------



## Aladdin (Jul 19, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> Which reminds... are the much loved day trips to Callais still a thing?



When I was a kid we had a neighbour who used to go to France by ferry and come back with a boot full of food or drink. Usually wine. But one year he  came home with a boot full of bananas.


----------



## discokermit (Jul 19, 2021)

golden wonder are made by tayto. and ringos.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 19, 2021)

Sugar Kane said:


> When I was a kid we had a neighbour who used to go to France by ferry and come back with a boot full of food or drink. Usually wine. But one year he  came home with a boot full of bananas.


bananas are a recognised food


----------



## krtek a houby (Jul 19, 2021)

discokermit said:


> golden wonder are made by tayto. and ringos.



The latter not even the best crisps in the franchise


----------



## Aladdin (Jul 19, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> bananas are a recognised food



Sure...but  there must have been a shortage of them. 
A car boot
...full of bananas ...doesn't bear thinking about.


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 19, 2021)

Massively .. _checks massive notes_ ..


----------



## NoXion (Jul 19, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> Massively .. _checks massive notes_ ..



You've become a parody of yourself now.


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 19, 2021)

Massive hot take


----------



## krtek a houby (Jul 19, 2021)

NoXion said:


> You've become a parody of yourself now.


Meat The Feeble


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 19, 2021)

editor said:


> Have you remembered the names of these bands you say are having no problem touring Europe yet?
> 
> Still, all musicians can be overjoyed at the news of  Liechtenstein opening up. A truly worthy alternative.
> 
> ...


samantha fox for one


----------



## editor (Jul 19, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> samantha fox for one


She's not in a struggling small band. She's a long established artist with chart success performing solo on the lucrative retro 80s circuit, playing sizeable venues with a load of other 80s acts.

It's not even slightly comparable to the plight of small bands who used to tour the European small gig circuits. I've said all along that it won't affect the bigger acts so much because have the financial resources, management services and legal expertise to get around the obstacles that Brexit has created for smaller bands.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 19, 2021)

editor said:


> She's not in a struggling small band. She's a long established artist with chart success performing solo on the lucrative retro 80s circuit, playing sizeable venues with a load of other 80s acts.
> 
> It's not even slightly comparable to the plight of small bands who used to tour the European small gig circuits. I've said all along that it won't affect the bigger acts so much because have the financial resources, management services and legal expertise to get around the obstacles that Brexit has created for smaller bands.


that creaking sound is the goalposts moving


----------



## editor (Jul 19, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> that creaking sound is the goalposts moving



Or you could just admit you don't have much of a clue about what you're talking about here. Or maybe you're just trolling because anyone trying to draw meaningful  comparisons between the plight of small bands struggling to play gigs in Europe and a 1980s celebrity with a string of hit singles and albums touring the retro circuit really has lost the plot a bit.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 19, 2021)

editor said:


> Or you could just admit you don't have much of a clue about what you're talking about here. Or maybe you're just trolling because anyone trying to draw meaningful  comparisons between the plight of small bands struggling to play gigs in Europe and a 1980s celebrity with a string of hit singles and albums touring the retro circuit really has lost the plot a bit.


you asked


editor said:


> Have you remembered the names of these bands you say are having no problem touring Europe yet?


now you're hedging this all around with restrictions you never made when the question was first posed. that's moving the goalposts.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Jul 19, 2021)

There's a thread for this. Hint: it's not this one


----------



## Raheem (Jul 19, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> that creaking sound is the goalposts moving


It's the leave voters trying to get up from their armchairs.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 19, 2021)

Raheem said:


> It's the leave voters trying to get up from their armchairs.


not so sure that's the case


----------



## brogdale (Jul 19, 2021)

Tesco delivery this evening had no crisps* & no subs 

This never happened when the UK was a supra state member.

* the "pillow" of 30 packs (mixed) for £2.85


----------



## Badgers (Jul 20, 2021)

> UK civil servants are working on a plan to get grace periods extended for Northern Ireland again.



Oven ready ^


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 20, 2021)

Massive.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 20, 2021)

brogdale said:


> & no subs



Love their chicken and bacon sub. And it’s in the meal deal. This could force me to rethink my entire analysis of the benefits of the neo-liberal supra state.


----------



## brogdale (Jul 20, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Love their chicken and bacon sub. And it’s in the meal deal. This could force me to rethink my entire analysis of the benefits of the neo-liberal supra state.


Substitutes.


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 20, 2021)

Project Fear can't let this counter narrative rest:









						UK fintech sector hits multibillion-pound peak of investor interest
					

Banking app Revolut has been valued at £24bn while Wise, the forex transfer business, has listed at nearly £9bn




					www.theguardian.com
				




Yeah but Frankfurt and Paris and no but yeah but globalisation but no but India but yeah:



> British fintech firms continue to attract huge amount of international investment, second only to the US, Hirt added. According to Hirt, this is due to London’s continued strength as a financial centre where most business is done in English, its access to top tier universities, a diverse talent pool, and strong support from regulators and government. And the latest industry figures confirm investor appetite for homegrown fintech firms is only growing.


----------



## two sheds (Jul 20, 2021)

Do you ever have coherent moments?


----------



## brogdale (Jul 20, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Do you ever have coherent moments?


Too busy flicking frenziedly through those piles of notes.


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 20, 2021)

Let's 'like' these two messages above, folks; get these addicts off to the best start for their internet day


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jul 20, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Love their chicken and bacon sub. And it’s in the meal deal. This could force me to rethink my entire analysis of the benefits of the neo-liberal supra state.



Sainsbury’s are fucking arseholes with the meal deal, arbitrary 50% of the sandwiches aren’t in the deal and of course the sandwiches inevitably get mixed up so the labels are no use on shelves


----------



## Spymaster (Jul 20, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Do you ever have coherent moments?


They’re being perfectly coherent. Basically they’re pointing out that despite all the doom mongering by remainers about no deal being struck for the financial services sector, UK fintech is the most heavily invested in, in the world after the US. Therefore, one might conclude that predictions of financial Armageddon by many on here and elsewhere, are bollocks.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 20, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Sainsbury’s are fucking arseholes with the meal deal, arbitrary 50% of the sandwiches aren’t in the deal and of course the sandwiches inevitably get mixed up so the labels are no use on shelves


I abandoned Sainsbury’s for precisely this reason. Plus their cold drink options always seem designed to tempt you away from the meal deal


----------



## brogdale (Jul 20, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> They’re being perfectly coherent. Basically they’re pointing out that despite all the doom mongering by remainers about no deal being struck for the financial services sector, UK fintech is the most heavily invested in, in the world after the US. Therefore, one might conclude that predictions of financial Armageddon by many on here and elsewhere, are bollocks.


Yep; the tax havens still exist, whatever.


----------



## Spymaster (Jul 20, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Yep; the tax havens still exist, whatever.



'Fraid you're going to have to have one of these for that, Broggers


----------



## NoXion (Jul 20, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> They’re being perfectly coherent. Basically they’re pointing out that despite all the doom mongering by remainers about no deal being struck for the financial services sector, UK fintech is the most heavily invested in, in the world after the US. Therefore, one might conclude that predictions of financial Armageddon by many on here and elsewhere, are bollocks.



I'd wager that most Remainers on this forum aren't so tone-deaf as to go "but what about the poor, poor banks?"

The Remainers on Twitter, on the other hand...


----------



## Spymaster (Jul 20, 2021)

NoXion said:


> I'd wager that most Remainers on this forum aren't so tone-deaf as to go "but what about the poor, poor banks?"



I dunno; Broggers just came close!


----------



## NoXion (Jul 20, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> I dunno; Broggers just came close!



No he didn't, and he's not a Remainer.


----------



## two sheds (Jul 20, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> They’re being perfectly coherent. Basically they’re pointing out that despite all the doom mongering by remainers about no deal being struck for the financial services sector, UK fintech is the most heavily invested in, in the world after the US. Therefore, one might conclude that predictions of financial Armageddon by many on here and elsewhere, are bollocks.


We have different definitions of coherent, clearly, it just comes across as having a spittle-flecked keyboard. 

And I think "but what about the poor, poor banks?" fits this post much better than "Broggers" post did, Spyers.


----------



## NoXion (Jul 20, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> Let's 'like' these two messages above, folks; get these addicts off to the best start for their internet day



Unlike you, addicts can be functional.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 20, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> Let's 'like' these two messages above, folks; get these addicts off to the best start for their internet day


you say it best when you say nothing at all


----------



## Spymaster (Jul 20, 2021)

two sheds said:


> And I think "but what about the poor, poor banks?" fits this post much better than "Broggers" post did, Spyers.



So it's all about the poor, poor banks, and not the poor, poor, people who work for them or supporting/supported sectors? This weird 'hope FS gets fucked' position is staggering, considering what would happen to pretty much everyone if it did.


----------



## NoXion (Jul 20, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> So it's all about the poor, poor banks, and not the poor, poor, people who work for them or supporting/supported sectors? This weird 'hope FS gets fucked' position is staggering, considering what would happen to pretty much everyone if it did.



The fact that removing the parasite could harm the host is not the endorsement of finance capital that you might think it is.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 20, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> So it's all about the poor, poor banks, and not the poor, poor, people who work for them or supporting/supported sectors? This weird 'hope FS gets fucked' position is staggering, considering what would happen to pretty much everyone if it did.


was it boris johnson who put it so pithily as 'fuck business'?


----------



## Raheem (Jul 20, 2021)

"Hope the FS gets fucked" is completely rational, but at the same time insanely unrealistic.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 20, 2021)

Raheem said:


> "Hope the FS gets fucked" is completely rational, but at the same time insanely optimistic.


c4u


----------



## Ax^ (Jul 20, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> They’re being perfectly coherent. Basically they’re pointing out that despite all the doom mongering by remainers about no deal being struck for the financial services sector, UK fintech is the most heavily invested in, in the world after the US. Therefore, one might conclude that predictions of financial Armageddon by many on here and elsewhere, are bollocks.


 but he post it from the guardian so it left wing MSM propaganda


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 20, 2021)

The U75 Brains Trust strikes again.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 20, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> The U75 Brains Trust strikes again.


you give the impression of having a striking brain...


----------



## Saul Goodman (Jul 20, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> you give the impression of having a stricken brain...


CFY


----------



## two sheds (Jul 20, 2021)

Obsessed with people liking posts - nobody's liking the poor cherub's posts so he's got like envy


----------



## 2hats (Jul 20, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> you give the impression of having a striking brain...


Mince for brains.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 20, 2021)

2hats said:


> Mince for brains.



Nope…._checks notes…._it’s ‘shit for brains’


----------



## Cerv (Jul 20, 2021)

Dominic Cummings: I discussed ousting PM after 2019 election landslide
					

Boris Johnson's former aide says Downing Street rifts developed within days of a landslide victory.



					www.bbc.co.uk
				





> Despite running the successful Vote Leave campaign in the referendum, Mr Cummings said that "no-one on Earth" could be certain it had been the right decision to quit the EU.


well clearly he needs to read this thread and learn something


----------



## Ax^ (Jul 20, 2021)

he should just read the Guardian its were loose meat gets all of his points from


----------



## brogdale (Jul 20, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> The U75 Brains Trust strikes again.


That's a very dated diss; the sort generally used by an older poster.


----------



## ska invita (Jul 20, 2021)

brogdale said:


> That's a very dated diss; the sort generally used by an older poster.


i dont understand what it means tbh


----------



## brogdale (Jul 20, 2021)

ska invita said:


> i dont understand what it means tbh


The Brains Trust - Wikipedia

Sort of thing my old Dad says...and he's old.
Makes me wonder whether or not the poster using the phrase has been around before?


----------



## ska invita (Jul 20, 2021)

brogdale said:


> TMakes me wonder whether or not the poster using the phrase has been around before?


before 1950?


----------



## krtek a houby (Jul 21, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> The U75 Brains Trust strikes again.



If you loathe urban that much, why did you come back?


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 21, 2021)

Sometimes for the ski instructors, sometimes the tambourines, other times the lettuce - how would I know the whole country is gong to shit unless I came here for updates on the real world.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jul 21, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> Sometimes for the ski instructors, sometimes the tambourines, other times the lettuce - how would I know the whole country is gong to shit unless I came here for updates on the real world.



Doesn't explain your grudge against urban.

How many years have you been nursing it for?


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 21, 2021)

Ag yes, a grudge. Is it not a ... _massive_ ...  grudge


----------



## bimble (Jul 21, 2021)

tell you who is a massive Lying Remoaner, its the woman at the checkout in my tescos yesterday, when i asked her about the empty shelves. She could have just said don't be silly there's no issue here. She must have been reading the guardian.


----------



## NoXion (Jul 21, 2021)

bimble said:


> tell you who is a massive Lying Remoaner, its the woman at the checkout in my tescos yesterday, when i asked her about the empty shelves. She could have just said don't be silly there's no issue here. She must have been reading the guardian.



Well, what did she actually say?


----------



## bimble (Jul 21, 2021)

NoXion said:


> Well, what did she actually say?


the lorry driver shortage.


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 21, 2021)

Yep, it's so ... _massive_.. I saw on twitter, drivers are doing 30-hour shifts and wiping out entire families on the M40. The country is ruined. Thanks Brexit.


----------



## bimble (Jul 21, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> Yep, it's so ... _massive_.. I saw on twitter, drivers are doing 30-hour shifts and wiping out entire families on the M40. The country is ruined. Thanks Brexit.


Who are you even talking to, weirdo.
There are empty shelves that's all. Nobody is starving, it's not a catastrophe just an inconvenience. It's not very mysterious, European lorry drivers are choosing to work elsewhere, where they have the covid hassle but not the double hassle of that & customs checks.


----------



## NoXion (Jul 21, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> Yep, it's so ... _massive_.. I saw on twitter, drivers are doing 30-hour shifts and wiping out entire families on the M40. The country is ruined. Thanks Brexit.



What the fuck has any of that got to do with this thread? There is, in fact, a driver shortage. Like bimble says though, it's more just an inconvenience and hardly apocalyptic. No doubt in time there will be more drivers hired locally to make up for the shortfall.

This shitty sarcasm of yours would be obnoxious enough coming from a long-term regular, but as you're a fucking nobody here you just come across like a twat.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jul 21, 2021)

Tesco turnover last year was fifty three billion pounds. They can afford to pay drivers better, they have got used to maximising profits by paying shit wages to drivers that are not enough for a U.K. driver to live on, due to Brexit and Covid the imported drivers they exploited are no longer available for them so they need to take the hit and pay proper wages. Expect we shall see more of this, profits for greedy bastard companies taking a slight dent, wages rising for workers. End of days.


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Jul 21, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> The U75 Brains Trust strikes again.


Is there a... _checks notes_... mono thought clique on here?


----------



## bimble (Jul 21, 2021)

I _think _i've noticed a pattern to where the gaps on the shelves tend to be over the past month or so. I think mostly its the stuff thats' least profit margin per square meter / volume, apart from there's plenty of loo roll thank fuck for that, that really was the end of days.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jul 21, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> Ag yes, a grudge. Is it not a ... _massive_ ...  grudge


You're the expert, tell us


----------



## bimble (Jul 21, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Expect we shall see more of this, profits for greedy bastard companies taking a slight dent


Do you genuinely think this is going to happen instead of just prices going up so that profits stay the same?


----------



## two sheds (Jul 21, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> Yep, it's so ... _massive_.. I saw on twitter, drivers are doing 30-hour shifts and wiping out entire families on the M40. The country is ruined. Thanks Brexit.


This really the sort of shit you want to align yourself with and defend, Spymaster? A parody brexiter as bad as any 'remoaner' we've had on here. Unable to make a coherent argument and only comes on every morning for his daily sneer. At least you make some sort of point when you discuss things.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 21, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> Ag yes, a grudge. Is it not a ... _massive_ ...  grudge


Was it Margaret Thatcher who said a grudge is a grudge is a grudge?


----------



## brogdale (Jul 21, 2021)

Brexiteer trolls always seem so unhappy and angsty.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jul 21, 2021)

bimble said:


> Do you genuinely think this is going to happen instead of just prices going up so that profits stay the same?



I do think that. Aldi’s shelves are always full when we shop, their profit margins are lower, they have always paid their staff better than the bigger chains, I think there is a connection there. Have not been in Lidl, should do as a new one has opened locally.


----------



## prunus (Jul 21, 2021)

“U75 brains trust”. Hmm, I remember a poster, now sadly banned, with a similar abrasive posting style and a penchant for bandying that phrase about by way of abuse, who went by the name of Up the junction.   Coincidence…? You decide.


----------



## two sheds (Jul 21, 2021)

It does show the bitterness of a banned returnee who's never quite got over it.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jul 21, 2021)

two sheds said:


> It does show the bitterness of a banned returnee who's never quite got over it.


There's... checks notes... quite a few of them


----------



## bimble (Jul 21, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> I do think that. Aldi’s shelves are always full when we shop, their profit margins are lower, they have always paid their staff better than the bigger chains, I think there is a connection there. Have not been in Lidl, should do as a new one has opened locally.


hmm. i really don't think that's the way it works but ok. I reckon that the people who run Tescos will raise prices before they tell their CEO & shareholders to take the hit.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jul 21, 2021)

bimble said:


> hmm. i really dont think thats the way it works but ok. I reckon that the people who run tescos will raise prices before they tell their shareholders to take the hit.



At the most basic level there is a tipping point, if they have no goods to sell they make no money, therefore they have to spend to get the goods on the shelves.

Fuck ‘em anyway, why do people shop in these places when Aldi and Lidl are so much cheaper and treat their staff better?


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 21, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Tesco turnover last year was fifty three billion pounds. They can afford to pay drivers better, they have got used to maximising profits by paying shit wages to drivers that are not enough for a U.K. driver to live on, due to Brexit and Covid the imported drivers they exploited are no longer available for them so they need to take the hit and pay proper wages. Expect we shall see more of this, profits for greedy bastard companies taking a slight dent, wages rising for workers. End of days.



To be fair to them the covid self isolating app is also a short term factor. My brothers father in law is a lorry driver for one of the biggest distributors to Tesco’s and they’ve had half of the drivers pinged and told to self isolate. On the longer term stuff - wages, T&Cs, paying for HGV licences, accepting lower profit until they can find a way to extract more - I completely agree


----------



## bimble (Jul 21, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Brexiteer trolls always seem so unhappy and angsty.


He's not a troll ! He's just a true brother in arms who will stop at nothing to defend the brexit revolution. He's just in the wrong place, should stick to the daily mail comments section where he might successfully wind people up cos they don't want someone quite that mental on their side.


----------



## brogdale (Jul 21, 2021)

bimble said:


> He's not a troll ! He's just a true brother in arms who will stop at nothing to defend the brexit revolution. He's just in the wrong place, should stick to the daily mail comments section where he might successfully wind people up cos they don't want someone quite that mental on their side.


I dunno, maybe it's a simplistic naivety on my part, but I expected those who engaged with the winning side of the referendum to be generally happier, more content and satisfied with life outside the supra state. That just doesn't seem to be the case, especially when they use Tory terminology like _remoaners _for those with every good reason to complain.

Odd.


----------



## bimble (Jul 21, 2021)

brogdale said:


> I dunno, maybe it's a simplistic naivety on my part, but I expected those who engaged with the winning side of the referendum to be generally happier, more content and satisfied with life outside the supra state. That just doesn't seem to be the case, especially when they use Tory terminology like _remoaners _for those with every good reason to complain.
> 
> Odd.


Agree. It is mysterious. is it possible that the anger and resentment that was an important part of getting out the vote was in fact not totally cured by leaving the EU because it wasn't really about the EU in the first place? Who can say.


----------



## brogdale (Jul 21, 2021)

He's deffo trolling the forum, though...and needs the heave ho.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 21, 2021)

NoXion said:


> Well, what did she actually say?


----------



## brogdale (Jul 21, 2021)

The39thStep said:


>



5 years gone


----------



## MrSki (Jul 21, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Fuck ‘em anyway, why do people shop in these places when Aldi and Lidl are so much cheaper and treat their staff better?


Because I don't drive & the only choice is Waitrose & Sainsburys in walking distance. Love Lidl but not really an option without adding £20 in taxi fares.


----------



## Spymaster (Jul 21, 2021)

two sheds said:


> This really the sort of shit you want to align yourself with and defend, Spymaster?


Nah, I think he's a bit of a bellend but I do enjoy all the uptight reactions when someone comes along and pisses into the hive every now and then.


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 21, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Tesco turnover last year was fifty three billion pounds. They can afford to pay drivers better, they have got used to maximising profits by paying shit wages to drivers that are not enough for a U.K. driver to live on, due to Brexit and Covid the imported drivers they exploited are no longer available for them so they need to take the hit and pay proper wages. Expect we shall see more of this, profits for greedy bastard companies taking a slight dent, wages rising for workers. End of days.



Sure, most know that. But in this quirky internet backwater they lap up Project Fear like it's fresh, like it isn't 6 years, one referendum and two elections past it's sell by date.


----------



## brogdale (Jul 21, 2021)

Beyond 30/12/20 "project fear" objectively transformed into "project here"; this is it, this is what you willed.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jul 21, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> Sure, most know that. But in this quirky internet backwater they lap up Project Fear like it's fresh, like it isn't 6 years, one referendum and two elections past it's sell by date.


You forgot to say "wake up, sheeple"


----------



## bimble (Jul 21, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> Sure, most know that. But in this quirky internet backwater they lap up Project Fear like it's fresh, like it isn't 6 years, one referendum and two elections past it's sell by date.


Who are you talking to? 
Do you not realise that almost everyone still bothering to post on this silly thread  voted leave & is totally on your side? 

Let's see what happens to the profits of the big supermarkets & prices in the UK, why anyone thinks the prices of stuff will stay the same & the CEOs and shareholders will pay instead of us is beyond me tbh. 
I think its same same weird optimism that brexiteers have had all along. Must be quite nice.


----------



## editor (Jul 21, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> Sure, most know that. But in this quirky internet backwater they lap up Project Fear like it's fresh, like it isn't 6 years, one referendum and two elections past it's sell by date.


I've no idea why you keep on trying to insult the intelligence of the posters here but if you feel the forum is beyond your vast imagined intellect, feel free to fuck right off forever.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 21, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Nah, I think he's a bit of a bellend but I do enjoy all the uptight reactions when someone comes along and pisses into the hive every now and then.


In another reality or if I was writing a sequel to The Revolution Betrothed in Cheadle High Street he’d be stuck in a lift with Bimble for a good few days .


----------



## bimble (Jul 21, 2021)

It's going really well anyhow. They signed a brilliant Deal it's just that nobody could have predicted there'd be issues with the whole Northern Ireland bit.

Lord Frost "called for a temporary “standstill” period including the suspension of all legal action by the EU, and the operation of grace periods to allow continued trade of goods ..
The UK also wants to scrap the involvement of EU institutions and the European court of justice in policing and governing the protocol."

What happens next if EU just say no sod off?


----------



## bimble (Jul 21, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> In another reality or if I was writing a sequel to The Revolution Betrothed in Cheadle High Street he’d be stuck in a lift with Bimble for a good few days .


This would not end well, baguettes can kill people i read somewhere.


----------



## ska invita (Jul 21, 2021)

bimble said:


> What happens next if EU just say no sod off?


UK will site article 16 (is that it?), Refuse to cooperate, call an election when anti EU headlines are strongest, eventually go to court, give a  tit for tat response

I reckon


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 21, 2021)

bimble said:


> This would not end well, baguettes can kill people i read somewhere.


I could work that in but would have to factor in the possibility of a baguette shortage as to create a cliff hanger . Might have to be the last bag of frozen petit pois in all of the U.K. , by now thawing into a sorry puddle of what it once was , that Mr Ski brings in a vain but noble attempt to show that even though people may not agree on some subjects that scarce and treasured food can bring people together .


----------



## MrSki (Jul 21, 2021)

Food shortages? What food shortages?





Not just petit pois then


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 21, 2021)




----------



## Raheem (Jul 21, 2021)

If there are food shortages, then there are, so I'm not trying to deny it.

But if you'd have put out a call for pictures of empty shelves at any time over the last say ten years, would it have been much different? I don't know the answer, but it's worth wondering.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 21, 2021)




----------



## Spymaster (Jul 21, 2021)

.


----------



## Spymaster (Jul 21, 2021)

Raheem said:


> If there are food shortages, then there are, so I'm not trying to deny it.
> 
> But if you'd have put out a call for pictures of empty shelves at any time over the last say ten years, would it have been much difference? I don't know the answer, but it's worth wondering.


Those are empty shelves in Spain.


----------



## Raheem (Jul 21, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Those are empty shelves in Spain.


Aye, the last pic posted, but I was referring to the Twitter thread posted before that.

Also, I think if there are shortages, it's probably down to Covid anyway.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 21, 2021)




----------



## Saul Goodman (Jul 21, 2021)

The39thStep said:


>



Has Broxtowe moved country?


----------



## Spymaster (Jul 21, 2021)

Empty shelves in France


----------



## Raheem (Jul 21, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> View attachment 279809
> 
> Empty shelves in France
> 
> ...


Bit much to scoff at someone on twitter posting a picture from a different country, and then post one from a different year...


----------



## Saul Goodman (Jul 21, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> View attachment 279809
> 
> Empty shelves in France
> 
> ...


That might have been my fault. I got a puncture in front of their delivery driver on a narrow road somewhere in France.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 21, 2021)

Saul Goodman said:


> Has Broxtowe moved country?


it’s been a disputed territory for years before the MSM had a blackout on it


----------



## Spymaster (Jul 21, 2021)

Raheem said:


> Bit much to scoff at someone on twitter posting pictures from a different country, and then post pictures from a different year...



Half (most?) of these pics on Twitter showing empty UK shelves ARE from last year!


----------



## Saul Goodman (Jul 21, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Half (most) of these pics on Twitter showing empty UK shelves are from last year!



#Whodathunk


----------



## Raheem (Jul 21, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Half (most?) of these pics on Twitter showing empty UK shelves ARE from last year!


AFAICS, that's just not true.


----------



## MrSki (Jul 21, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Half (most?) of these pics on Twitter showing empty UK shelves ARE from last year!


People have dated & named their location. Why would you use old photos? I am sure that the shelves will be re-stocked soon but there are empty shelves & a lot of items unavailable on on=line shopping sites.


----------



## bimble (Jul 21, 2021)

This stupid argument has been going on for ages! There are empty shelves. oh no there aren't you're lying / imagining things.
I don't watch tv news but have they said nothing about it at all in order to prevent panic buying?

There are very consistently empty shelves in my local supermarkets have been for some weeks & i'm not used to seeing that so its a bit unsettling but I get why its happening hope it gets sorted & in the meantime i will survive.

Pretending its just not happening just cos you personally live in Godalming or Portugal or something is proper nuts tho, meat face level nuts.


----------



## two sheds (Jul 21, 2021)

Raheem said:


> Bit much to scoff at someone on twitter posting a picture from a different country, and then post one from a different year...


oooooh sneaky Spymaster tell me it's not so


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 21, 2021)

MrSki said:


> People have dated & named their location. Why would you use old photos? I am sure that the shelves will be re-stocked soon but there are empty shelves & a lot of items unavailable on on=line shopping sites.



I think the comedy value arises from those trying to draw some conclusions about Brexit as a result of those photographs or from remainers on Twitter appealing to followers to send them pictures of empty shelves (an odd fetish).

I fully expect shortages to be worse next week. Tesco’s biggest distributor has got most drivers sat at home self isolating: There is a Labour shortage. Firms refuse to pay the new rate for the job. Oh, and we are in the middle of the worst pandemic in living memory. The miracle - thanks to the thicko Brexit voting workers who work on the roads, in the distribution centres, labouring on farms, the food processing workers and in the supermarkets - is the absolute range and quality of food still available and which has been since March 2020


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 21, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I think the comedy value arises from those trying to draw some conclusions about Brexit as a result of those photographs or from remainers on Twitter appealing to followers to send them pictures of empty shelves (an odd fetish).
> 
> I fully expect shortages to be worse next week. Tesco’s biggest distributor has got most drivers sat at home self isolating: There is a Labour shortage. Firms refuse to pay the new rate for the job.


Far too sensible explanation for some of the more excitable posters on here


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jul 21, 2021)

bimble said:


> Pretending its just not happening just cos you personally live in Godalming or Portugal or something is proper nuts tho, meat face level nuts.








Maybe that is why our shelves are full round here..?


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 21, 2021)

thanks


Bahnhof Strasse said:


> View attachment 279813
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe that is why our shelves are full round here..?



The spatial unevenness will directly correlate to staffing levels, covid app pings, covid cases and the associated situation within the respective food distributors which all vary across the UK and the different chains.

Sadly remainers, it’ll be fuck all to do with a vote in 2016.

Mind you, if it gets bad workers might decide to deliver to leave voting districts first…bar overpriced cheese and quinoa that is


----------



## bimble (Jul 21, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> thanks
> 
> 
> The spatial unevenness will directly correlate to staffing levels, covid app pings, covid cases and the associated situation within the respective food distributors which all vary across the UK and the different chains.
> ...


lol. The lorry drivers shortage has absolutely nothing to do with brexit its 100% all those romanians getting pinged by the ap.


----------



## Raheem (Jul 21, 2021)

bimble said:


> lol. The lorry drivers shortage has absolutely nothing to do with brexit its 100% all those romanians getting pinged by the ap.


The loss of lorry drivers due to Brexit is supposedly 2-3% of the overall workforce. Which isn't nothing, but it would seem odd that the industry managed to cope for six months and then suddenly it started to be a problem, without something else arising.


----------



## bimble (Jul 21, 2021)

Raheem said:


> The loss of lorry drivers due to Brexit is supposedly 2-3% of the overall workforce. Which isn't nothing, but it would seem odd that the industry managed to cope for six months and then suddenly it started to be a problem, without something else arising.


really? Where's that 3% from? 97% of lorry drivers in the UK were brits all along? 
All those ones that 'scuffled' with police at dover cos they were desperate to leave and go home for x mas were the 3%.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 21, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> View attachment 279813
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe that is why our shelves are full round here..?


Lots of truck drivers live in Guildford obvs


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 21, 2021)

Raheem said:


> The loss of lorry drivers due to Brexit is supposedly 2-3% of the overall workforce. Which isn't nothing, but it would seem odd that the industry managed to cope for six months and then suddenly it started to be a problem, without something else arising.



The sweet sound of Bimble’s chips being pissed on.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 21, 2021)

bimble said:


> really? Where's that 3% from? 97% of lorry drivers in the UK were brits all along?


Yeh that's really what he said

Nothing there about the Great Purge. Quite poss EU people still drive trucks but some with ukss. Which isn't a great abbreviation.


----------



## Raheem (Jul 21, 2021)

bimble said:


> really? Where's that 3% from? 97% of lorry drivers in the UK were brits all along?


No,  I think it is about 10% that were EU citizens, but only some of them chose to leave after Brexit.


----------



## bimble (Jul 21, 2021)

ok good, so soon as the covid or the self isolation rules are over all the cheese will be back where it belongs.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jul 21, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Lots of truck drivers live in Guildford obvs



Guildford, it's trucking great.


----------



## bimble (Jul 21, 2021)

Weird that he doesn't even mention anything to do with the problem being because of people temporarily having to stay off work cos of the virus, just goes on about how the government is going to help recruit loads more drivers, a post-brexit opportunity.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 21, 2021)

bimble said:


> Weird that he doesn't even mention anything to do with the problem being because of people temprararily having to stay off work cos of the virus, just goes on about how the government is going to help recruit loads more drivers.



Not really. It’s possible to have a long term problem (recruitment, bosses not keeping up with the new rate for the job) and then being exacerbated by short term crises posed by the pandemic


----------



## editor (Jul 21, 2021)

I'm more than happy to highlight the endless failings of Brexit but I would have thought that those empty shelves are as much to do with the workforce having to self isolate. Several pubs/businesses near me have had to close temporarily for that reason.


----------



## bimble (Jul 21, 2021)

It is BOTH its not all covid and its not all brexit. But i really dont believe that European drivers were only 10% of the drivers bringing us our food, which mostly comes from europe. 
This seems ok, i didnt get more than halfway though.








						20 reasons why there is shortage of drivers in the UK
					

Thousands of people who shop in the UK probably noticed shortages of products in British supermarkets. The supply problems are blamed on the shortage of HGV driver




					orynski.eu


----------



## Raheem (Jul 21, 2021)

bimble said:


> i really dont believe that European drivers were only 10% of the drivers bringing us our food, which mostly comes from europe.


10% of the UK workforce (think the actual figure might be slightly less). Drivers bringing food from the EU will work in EU countries for EU haulage firms, which is another matter. They're not the reason for food shortages, and none of them are known to have decided to move to another country because of Brexit.


----------



## two sheds (Jul 21, 2021)

In an informal poll of large truck/trailer drivers who've got stuck after following their satnav in the narrow Cornish roads near me over the last few months I'd say around 25% were European, the other 75% from up country.


----------



## Supine (Jul 21, 2021)

More money wasted


----------



## Raheem (Jul 21, 2021)

Supine said:


> More money wasted



Yes, but not really to do with Brexit.


----------



## Yossarian (Jul 21, 2021)

editor said:


> I'm more than happy to highlight the endless failings of Brexit but I would have thought that those empty shelves are as much to do with the workforce having to self isolate. Several pubs/businesses near me have had to close temporarily for that reason.



Yep, I'm seeing a lot of pictures of empty shelves etc. being shared on Facebook etc. but it's still way to early to unpick the effects of Brexit from the effects of COVID on food distribution - same with food price rises, which seem to be happening in the EU at the same rate as elsewhere.

Might be another year or two before the effect of Brexit can be judged from the price, availability etc. of food relative to the EU - and from whether wage rises in the UK keep pace with the ones in the EU - but by then, it might be hard to separate the effect of Brexit on food prices from the effect of the world's escalating climate disasters.


----------



## two sheds (Jul 21, 2021)

They might also be spacing out deliveries further if there's a shortage of drivers.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jul 21, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> The miracle - thanks to the thicko Brexit voting workers who work on the roads, in the distribution centres, labouring on farms, the food processing workers and in the supermarkets - is the absolute range and quality of food still available and which has been since March 2020



What's with the  whole"thicko" epithet?


----------



## Yossarian (Jul 21, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> What's with the  whole"thicko" epithet?



His world is divided into sneering Remainer snobs who have never done an honest's day work and heroic working-class Brexiteers.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jul 21, 2021)

A shame, as it cheapens an otherwise interesting post.


----------



## bimble (Jul 22, 2021)

Raheem said:


> Drivers bringing food from the EU will work in EU countries for EU haulage firms, which is another matter. *They're not the reason for food shortages*


If the lorry driver's company is based in the EU then it doesn't have anything to do with our empty shelf problem? 
How did you figure that out?

Doesn't make any sense, and that truck driver with his 20 reasons clearly disagrees with you.

'many EU companies just gave up on taking freight to Britain altogether'  & 'more and more drivers when taking on new jobs demand guarantees from their employers that they won’t be sent to the UK.'
He's a Remoaner tho so probably lying.


----------



## andysays (Jul 22, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> His world is divided into sneering Remainer snobs who have never done an honest's day work and heroic working-class Brexiteers.


Yeah, because no one on Urban or anywhere else has ever called Leave voters thick, or even implied such a thing by suggesting that we were all taken in by lies on the side of buses.

It has literally never happened, and anyone mentioning it is clearly deluded.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jul 22, 2021)

andysays said:


> Yeah, because no one on Urban or anywhere else has ever called Leave voters thick, or even implied such a thing.by suggesting that we were all taken in by lies on the side of buses.
> 
> It has literally never happened, and anyone mentioning it is clearly deluded.



It happened 5 years ago, aye. There were, putting it mildly, emotional reactions, this self included. Eventually saw the light.

But the only people who use it now, would appear to be some of those who voted leave.


----------



## andysays (Jul 22, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> It happened 5 years ago, aye. There were, putting it mildly, emotional reactions, this self included. Eventually saw the light.
> 
> But the only people who use it now, would appear to be some of those who voted leave.


At least you've recognised that you did it, and now stopped.

Many others still haven't recognised it and still appear to me to be suggesting that Leave voters were and are thickos.


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 22, 2021)

andysays said:


> At least you've recognised that you did it, and now stopped.
> 
> Many others still haven't recognised it and still appear to me to be suggesting that Leave voters were and are thickos.


The Guardian were great at this around 2017. Probably a bit before Polly Toynbee proposd the 'wait until enough of them die' #PeoplesVote strategy. A series of articles 'inviting readers to infer' - dog whistling -  'Gammons' who supported Brexit had different brains, lots of stuff mentioning 'neurocience'.  Plenty of choices on google, here's one: >>



> Essentially, asking people “Do you still support Brexit/Trump?” in such the volatile, impassioned, confusing environment we currently find ourselves in is likely to be perceived as “Do you think that you and everyone you agree with is wrong, and your hated enemies are right?” And who’s going to say yes to that?











						The neuroscience of no regrets: why people still support Brexit and Trump
					

Dean Burnett: The way the brain works means those who support Brexit and Trump will carry on doing so




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 22, 2021)

Meanwhile, more Gammon jobs >>>>


----------



## Ax^ (Jul 22, 2021)

i've said it before but fuck off Marty1


----------



## krtek a houby (Jul 22, 2021)

andysays said:


> At least you've recognised that you did it, and now stopped.
> 
> Many others still haven't recognised it and still appear to me to be suggesting that Leave voters were and are thickos.



Leave voters have made the unification of Ireland and the independence of Scotland much more likely than ever before.

They are excellent and very giving people.


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 22, 2021)

Well, all the Scots had to do was vote for it. And they couldn't even get that right.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 22, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> Well, all the Scots had to do was vote for it. And they couldn't even get that right.


They received promises of devo max which haven't been kept


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 22, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> i've said it before but fuck off Marty1


Loose meat reduces nicely to 'lose me' which is what we all want


----------



## brogdale (Jul 22, 2021)

Ah yes, more Jefferson/FactoryNow shit-posting. Just what U75 is all about...re-posting capital's shilling SM accounts.

Time you went somewhere else where such 'insight' might be more appreciated.


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 22, 2021)

Sorry, who are you


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 22, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> Sorry, who are you


You should be sorry.


----------



## brogdale (Jul 22, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> Sorry, who are you


Not a returner; who *were *you?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 22, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Not a returner; who *were *you?


Sounds like he's a former person


----------



## brogdale (Jul 22, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Sounds like he's a former person


Any poster happy to act as a tool of the bosses certainly deserves to be.


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 22, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Ah yes, more Jefferson/FactoryNow shit-posting. Just what U75 is all about...re-posting capital's shilling SM accounts.
> 
> Time you went somewhere else where such 'insight' might be more appreciated.


The classic U75; never mind the thousands of job and families positively affected. It's about ... I can't quite work out the point being made ... but it's obviously more significant than those thousands of jobs, because no one here would be that mindbendingly crass


----------



## bimble (Jul 22, 2021)

It is you Marty isn’t it, I kind of missed you.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 22, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> I can't quite work out the point being made


Why am I not surprised


----------



## brogdale (Jul 22, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> The classic U75; never mind the thousands of job and families positively affected. It's about ... I can't quite work out the point being made ... but it's obviously more significant than those thousands of jobs, because no one here would be that mindbendingly crass


Before you're banned, you could set up your own tedious thread where you re-post boss news about their 'investments', rather than posting up irrelevant propaganda to clog up this thread.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 22, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Before you're banned, you could set up your own tedious thread where you re-post boss news about their 'investments', rather than posting up irrelevant propaganda to clog up this thread.


Absolutely , please leave us so we can get back to enjoying our own non tedious and non clogged up thread in which the bosses propaganda about the effects of Brexit on their short term profit level are never posted.


----------



## Ax^ (Jul 22, 2021)

I will say and it might be controversial but if you supported  trump and brexit you more than likely a bit of a racist fuck wit


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 22, 2021)

bimble said:


> It is you Marty isn’t it, I kind of missed you.


Marty - 'Meet me by the lift, I'll be wearing a red rose, a  MAGA hat and carrying a baguette '


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 22, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Absolutely , please leave us so we can get back to enjoying our own non tedious and non clogged up thread in which the bosses propaganda about the effects of Brexit on their short term profit level are never posted.



There is clearly the right kind of boss propoganda (our old friends from the food and drink federation, those warning of price rises and inflation if the scruffy proles wages go up, the ECB/IMF/CBI/IOD and other pro-remain boss organisations) and the wrong kind. Who knew!?


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 22, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> I will say and it might be controversial but if you supported  trump and brexit you more than likely a bit of a racist fuck wit



Controversial? No, more reflective of a particular mindset and politics. 

It’s certainly an interesting approach though, to write off over 100 million people and assume your politics mean _anything _or are going _anywhere_


----------



## brogdale (Jul 22, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> There is clearly the right kind of boss propoganda (our old friends from the food and drink federation, those warning of price rises and inflation if the scruffy proles wages go up, the ECB/IMF/CBI/IOD and other pro-remain boss organisations) and the wrong kind. Who knew!?


Which would be a very fair point *if *the boss propaganda offered up by Marty related to Brexit. At least when the boss class whinge about  leaving the supra state, they are making claims related to the Brexit process...not just random tractor production.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 22, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Which would be a very fair point *if *the boss propaganda offered up by Marty related to Brexit. At least when the boss class whinge about  leaving the supra state, they are making claims related to the Brexit process...not just random tractor production.



Agreed. But it’s not just him though is it? This thread is full of remainers pretending (bad) things are related to Brexit, it was inevitable we’d get the same from the other side


----------



## Ax^ (Jul 22, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Controversial? No, more reflective of a particular mindset and politics.
> 
> It’s certainly an interesting approach though, to write off over 100 million people and assume your politics mean _anything _or are going _anywhere_



ya trump supporters can go fuck themselves


----------



## brogdale (Jul 22, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Agreed. But it’s not just him though is it? This thread is full of remainers pretending (bad) things are related to Brexit, it was inevitable we’d get the same from the other side


I know, but wasn't the thread set up for that?

There is always the more serious Brexit (mega-thread) and Marty could set up a brexit celebration thread if he wanted. Just that seeing irrelevant boss shite is not what I come to U75 for.


----------



## Shechemite (Jul 22, 2021)

bimble said:


> This stupid argument has been going on for ages! There are empty shelves. oh no there aren't you're lying / imagining things.
> I don't watch tv news but have they said nothing about it at all in order to prevent panic buying?
> 
> There are very consistently empty shelves in my local supermarkets have been for some weeks & i'm not used to seeing that so its a bit unsettling but I get why its happening hope it gets sorted & in the meantime i will survive.
> ...



all the shops round here have run of out of fans (the air conditioning sort, no idea about their support base).


----------



## bimble (Jul 22, 2021)

MadeInBedlam said:


> all the shops round here have run of out of fans (the air conditioning sort, no idea about their support base).


Brexit people buy fans. Remoaners all have luxury built in air conditioning.


----------



## Ax^ (Jul 22, 2021)

I have people who wave palm leaves over me during the heat


air con pfft


----------



## mojo pixy (Jul 22, 2021)

This happens every hot summer, shops run out of fans. The problem is, year after year, people forget summer is err hot


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 22, 2021)

bimble said:


> This stupid argument has been going on for ages! There are empty shelves. oh no there aren't you're lying / imagining things.
> I don't watch tv news but have they said nothing about it at all in order to prevent panic buying?
> 
> There are very consistently empty shelves in my local supermarkets have been for some weeks & i'm not used to seeing that so its a bit unsettling but I get why its happening hope it gets sorted & in the meantime i will survive.
> ...


I've seen empty shelves in supermarkets for years so I find it very hard to believe they've only just emerged in your neck of the woods


----------



## mojo pixy (Jul 22, 2021)

I fully expect this winter's (completely usual) run on standalone radiators and convector heaters to be blamed on Brexit too. 
Nobody will want to admit they forgot winter was cold and they suddenly need an extra heater. Again.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jul 22, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Agreed. But it’s not just him though is it? This thread is full of remainers pretending (bad) things are related to Brexit, it was inevitable we’d get the same from the other side



It's clearly time for remoaners to leave this thread.


----------



## bimble (Jul 22, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> I've seen empty shelves in supermarkets for years so I find it very hard to believe they've only just emerged in your neck of the woods


You are quite right.
Please inform the silly haulage industry who keeps hallucinating that there's some sort of a new serious & very brexit-related problem.  Again, they forget to even mention the pingdemic when they wrote last month that 'critical supply chains are failing'.



			https://www.rha.uk.net/Portals/0/News/Policy%20and%20Campaigning/Policy%20and%20Campaigning%20Documents/RHA%20letter%20to%20Prime%20Minister%20230621.pdf?ver=2021-06-23-163949-737


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 22, 2021)

Shortages have even started to hit the French  hard. No British baguettes in Marks et Sparks


----------



## mojo pixy (Jul 22, 2021)

''reconfinement'' means lockdown / quarantine, so they're saying Brexit + Covid.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jul 22, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Shortages have even started to hit the French  hard. No British baguettes in Marks et Sparks
> 
> View attachment 279925



Pah, let them eat cake


----------



## MrSki (Jul 22, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Half (most?) of these pics on Twitter showing empty UK shelves ARE from last year!


So are the front pages of most of todays UK papers featuring last years pictures too?


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 22, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> ya trump supporters can go fuck themselves



Right on dude.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 22, 2021)

A series of unforunate events :

Road Haulage Association  donates  £22,577 in 2017 , to fund a researcher in Conservative Dover MP Charlie Elphicke’s office.



> *Reference*: 58911
> 
> *Date Added*: 5 January 2017
> *Closing Date*: 20 January 2017
> ...





> Mr Elphicke said: “The researcher is looking at how we can be ready on day one for Brexit – particularly at the Dover front line.“This is vital work for both my constituency and the haulage industry. No one wants to see long queues of lorries at Dover.



2020 Charlie Elphicke  found guilty of assaulting said researcher and another woman and sentenced to two years in prison



> The second alleged victim, a parliamentary worker, was said to have been employed in her "dream job" when she found herself in Mr Elphicke's company sharing a bottle of champagne in April 2016, the court heard.
> 
> Ms Marshall said the witness described how Mr Elphicke allegedly assaulted her in Westminster.
> The young woman said: "He fully came at me, pulled his body towards me.
> ...



2021 June

Six months after not being ready for Brexit from day one and 4 years after appointing researcher  the Road Haulage Association writes to government about requiring temporary visas for EU drivers


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 22, 2021)

bimble said:


> You are quite right.
> Please inform the silly haulage industry who keeps hallucinating that there's some sort of a new serious & very brexit-related problem.  Again, they forget to even mention the pingdemic when they wrote last month that 'critical supply chains are failing'.
> 
> 
> ...


As ever there is a disconnect between my post and your response


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 22, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Before you're banned, you could set up your own tedious thread where you re-post boss news about their 'investments', rather than posting up irrelevant propaganda to clog up this thread.


You really are that crass. Over 5 years ago but you still have to diminish new jobs and families lifted up. And people like you think "Gammon's" are scum.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 22, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> You really are that crass. Over 5 years ago but you still have to diminish new jobs and families lifted up. And people like you think "Gammon's" are scum.


You are diminished by every post you submit


----------



## MrSki (Jul 22, 2021)

Is this a piss take?


----------



## bimble (Jul 22, 2021)

Marty did you ever buy your girlfriend that dinner or do you still think the American election is undecided?


----------



## krtek a houby (Jul 22, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> You really are that crass. Over 5 years ago but you still have to diminish new jobs and families lifted up. And people like you think "Gammon's" are scum.



Yeah, rings a bit hollow, what with your sneering backwater and brains trust brand of bollocks, since your return here.

Why bother?


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 22, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> Yeah, rings a bit hollow, what with your sneering backwater and brains trust brand of bollocks, since your return here.
> 
> Why bother?


Plenty of responses on the past two pages illustrate why; the endless, vacuous, delusional Remain,/ employer / poverty wages / Hitler lettuce narratives


----------



## bimble (Jul 22, 2021)

Hitler Lettuce. The new must have summer salad ingredient. Only in Waitrose, Guildford.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jul 22, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> Plenty of responses on the past two pages illustrate why; the endless, vacuous, delusional Remain,/ employer / poverty wages / Hitler lettuce narratives



True.



Mostly from you, mind.


----------



## Colin Hunt (Jul 22, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> Hitler lettuce narratives


Bloody romainers poisoning the narrative


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 22, 2021)

Colin Hunt said:


> Bloody romainers poisoning the narrative



Tip of the iceberg pal...


----------



## Saul Goodman (Jul 22, 2021)

bimble said:


> It is you Marty isn’t it, I kind of missed you.


Me too. He was like a chuchy version of sas. You just wanted to pinch his cheeks and wobble them with glee.  🤣


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 22, 2021)

bimble said:


> Hitler Lettuce. The new must have summer salad ingredient. Only in Waitrose, Guildford.


Waitrose , Guilford this morning


----------



## krtek a houby (Jul 22, 2021)

bimble said:


> It is you Marty isn’t it, I kind of missed you.



Am sure he'll lettuce know before he leaves


----------



## Yossarian (Jul 22, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Waitrose , Guilford this morning
> 
> View attachment 279934



"Hungry Parisians in the 15th arrondissement await a shipment of British baguettes."


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 22, 2021)

Stalingrad comes to Guildford.


----------



## Raheem (Jul 22, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> Am sure he'll lettuce know before he leaves


It's definitely Marty, endive got proof.


----------



## gosub (Jul 22, 2021)

MrSki said:


> Food shortages? What food shortages?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Interesting article Map reveals where UK residents struggling to access food


Sooner thems for whom the solution to all/any of it is 'rejoin the EU' retreat into a micro bubble sooner they can be discounted and things can get addressed


----------



## krtek a houby (Jul 22, 2021)

Raheem said:


> It's definitely Marty, endive got proof.


Oven proof but not chard


----------



## Raheem (Jul 22, 2021)

He thinks we're fooled by his chicory.


----------



## glitch hiker (Jul 22, 2021)

Hi ho! It's off to bullshit we go!



Astounding


----------



## glitch hiker (Jul 22, 2021)

gosub said:


> Interesting article Map reveals where UK residents struggling to access food
> 
> 
> Sooner thems for whom the solution to all/any of it is 'rejoin the EU' retreat into a micro bubble sooner they can be discounted and things can get addressed


How?


----------



## klang (Jul 22, 2021)

MadeInBedlam said:


> all the shops round here have run of out of fans (the air conditioning sort, no idea about their support base).


----------



## bimble (Jul 22, 2021)

she is the actual MINISTER FOR FISH. fucking hell. That would piss me right off if i knew anything about fish.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 22, 2021)

gosub said:


> Interesting article Map reveals where UK residents struggling to access food
> 
> 
> Sooner thems for whom the solution to all/any of it is 'rejoin the EU' retreat into a micro bubble sooner they can be discounted and things can get addressed


Not one normally to draw inferences from where people live but I will make an exception for Hebden Bridge


----------



## Raheem (Jul 22, 2021)

bimble said:


> she is the actual MINISTER FOR FISH. fucking hell. That would piss me right off if i knew anything about fish.


Fair enough, since they don't get to vote.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 22, 2021)

bimble said:


> she is the actual MINISTER FOR FISH. fucking hell. That would piss me right off if i knew anything about fish.


therese coffey is the actual minister for work and pensions and as you might expect her knowledge of both is, to be kind, extremely limited

if i wanted to know about molybdenum, i would ask her. for she has a doctorate in molybdenum chemistry.

if i wanted to know about anything else she would be the last person on my list to ask


----------



## andysays (Jul 22, 2021)

bimble said:


> You are quite right.
> Please inform the silly haulage industry who keeps hallucinating that there's some sort of a new serious & very brexit-related problem.  Again, they forget to even mention the pingdemic when they wrote last month that 'critical supply chains are failing'.
> 
> 
> ...


I think the problem here is that you appear to be taking the pronouncements of haulage industry bosses entirely at face value, not considering that they might perhaps have particular interests and reasons which lead them to exaggerate the significance of factors they're not responsible for and downplay the importance of those for which they are.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 22, 2021)

andysays said:


> I think the problem here is that you appear to be taking the pronouncements of haulage industry bosses entirely at face value, not considering that they might perhaps have particular interests and reasons which lead them to exaggerate the significance of factors they're not responsible for and downplay the importance of those for which they are.


a problem. there is more than one problem there.


----------



## bimble (Jul 22, 2021)

andysays said:


> I think the problem here is that you appear to be taking the pronouncements of haulage industry bosses entirely at face value, not considering that they might perhaps have particular interests and reasons which lead them to exaggerate the significance of factors they're not responsible for and downplay the importance of those for which they are.


Why then don’t they even mention the covid isolation thing as a factor in the shortage of drivers?


----------



## Ax^ (Jul 22, 2021)

would not be surprised if aging out is also and issue, uncle of mine was pass retirement age at the start of covid and thought well fuck this for a game of soldiers


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 22, 2021)

bimble said:


> Why then don’t they even mention the covid isolation thing as a factor in the shortage of drivers?


It was written a month ago ?


----------



## bimble (Jul 22, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> It was written a month ago ?


Well exactly. Problems been going on for ages. Reading people on this thread you’d think it just started yesterday with all the pings.


----------



## andysays (Jul 22, 2021)

bimble said:


> Well exactly. Problems been going on for ages. Reading people on this thread you’d think it just started yesterday with all the pings.


It's obviously cumulative. The pings have made a previously bad situation worse. 

The haulage industry was struggling before, now with the added problems caused by the recent Covid surge, the cracks are there for all to see.


----------



## bimble (Jul 22, 2021)

i might look into an hgv license, being an excellent driver.


----------



## two sheds (Jul 22, 2021)

Any panic buying going on do we know? There were empty shelves last year when the pandemic hit weren't there? Perhaps lambda variant is putting the wind up people, too.


----------



## bimble (Jul 22, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Any panic buying going on do we know? There were empty shelves last year when the pandemic hit weren't there? Perhaps lambda variant is putting the wind up people, too.


i have no idea but I think very possibly the reason its not been widely covered by bbc etc might be to prevent people seeing those photos of empty shelves and running out to empty some shelves, which is exactly what happened last year, totally self-made shortages.
It feels like a weird thing that it's just become News today, but has been very obviously going on for weeks.


----------



## two sheds (Jul 22, 2021)

bimble said:


> i might look into an hgv license, being an excellent driver.


choose who you work for, then. Neighbour worked for Cornish company and the wages were shit - a lot worse than he was promised when offered the job and long shifts with no paid overtime, not paid at all for hours over in a long shift which he reckoned put him under the minimum wage for a job as skilled and responsible as driving a huge fuck-off truck through Cornwall at night . I'll swear that didn't used to be the deal for overtime pay.


----------



## bimble (Jul 22, 2021)

With this shortage on a qualified driver could probably take one delivery job here one there as you wish. That kind of sounds fun. Can't remember where it was but the hgv drivers still have their own little section in service stations sometimes don't they, showers, small selection of old fashioned top shelf magazines.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 22, 2021)

bimble said:


> With this shortage on a qualified driver could probably take one delivery job here one there as you wish. That kind of sounds fun. Can't remember where it was but the hgv drivers still have their own little section in service stations sometimes don't they, showers, small selection of old fashioned top shelf magazines.


What, gentlemen only, pall mall club and so on?


----------



## bimble (Jul 22, 2021)

i did not inspect closely, i am not yet qualified.


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 22, 2021)

two sheds said:


> choose who you work for, then. Neighbour worked for Cornish company and the wages were shit - a lot worse than he was promised when offered the job and long shifts with no paid overtime, not paid at all for hours over in a long shift which he reckoned put him under the minimum wage for a job as skilled and responsible as driving a huge fuck-off truck through Cornwall at night . I'll swear that didn't used to be the deal for overtime pay.



You explained open border migration in a nut shell. For people from SE EU - Romania, Bulgaria, etc, where the min wage was either side of £3 an hour - a £10 an hour job driving around the UK was living the dream. Prior to thier arrival, the job was skilled work/wage for a family man.


----------



## two sheds (Jul 22, 2021)

no i explained why we should have some fucking employment laws that stop that sort of thing and give people - particularly providing essential service - good pay and conditions.


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 22, 2021)

There are employment laws. Inc min wage laws. A lot of good law is still in place inc. the Equalitie Act 2010. That isn't what created poverty wages for UK employees.

This happened becasue there was no control on economic migrants from economically underdeveloped, considerably poorer countries - men who were happy to doss in the lorry parks and share a caravan with half a dozen others if it meant sending home remittance.

The EU - with Germany in the lead - created economic mismatches on a national scale, repeatedly, for their own ends.


----------



## two sheds (Jul 22, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> There are employment laws. Inc min wage laws. A lot of good law is still in place inc. the Equalitie Act 2010. That isn't what created poverty wages for UK employees.
> 
> This happened becasue there was no control on economic migrants from economically underdeveloped, considerably poorer countries - men who were happy to doss in the lorry parks and share a caravan with half a dozen others if it meant sending home remittance.
> 
> The EU - with Germany in the lead - created economic mismatches on a national scale, repeatedly, for their own ends.


No, I said "we should have some fucking employment laws that stop that sort of thing and give people - particularly providing essential service - good pay and conditions." Companies can find a whole lot of reasons why pay should be really low. That's why we need laws to stop them.


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 22, 2021)

This is what you said - Brexit explained in a nut shell:


> *Neighbour worked for Cornish company and the wages were shit - a lot worse than he was promised when offered the job and long shifts with no paid overtime, not paid at all for hours over in a long shift which he reckoned put him under the minimum wage for a job as skilled and responsible as driving a huge fuck-off truck through Cornwall at night . I'll swear that didn't used to be the deal for overtime pay.*


If your neighbour didn't like the deal, there were plenty who'd grab it - from countries where the min wage was either side of £3 an hour.


----------



## Badgers (Jul 22, 2021)

EU slaps down UK's grand announcement on rewriting Brexit deal
					

Deadlock over trade rules governing Northern Ireland as European Commission vice-president Maros Sefcovic says Brussels will not renegotiate




					www.mirror.co.uk


----------



## Badgers (Jul 22, 2021)

Covid is the issue not Brexit. 

Why is the Delta variant in this country?


----------



## Ax^ (Jul 22, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> You explained open border migration in a nut shell. For people from SE EU - Romania, Bulgaria, etc, where the min wage was either side of £3 an hour - a £10 an hour job driving around the UK was living the dream. Prior to thier arrival, the job was skilled work/wage for a family man.



what when what time frame

and before the eastern European was it not the the Irish the blacks and the Indians who were the bogey men driving down wages


----------



## Ax^ (Jul 22, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Covid is the issue not Brexit.
> 
> Why is the Delta variant in this country?



I blame the Guardian


----------



## two sheds (Jul 22, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> This is what you said - Brexit explained in a nut shell:
> 
> If your neighbour didn't like the deal, there were plenty who'd grab it - from countries where the min wage was either side of £3 an hour.


Not if there were laws to protect people by stopping that. You don't think workers should be protected in this way to ensure rates and conditions are fair?


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 22, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Not if there were laws to protect people by stopping that. You don't think workers should be protected in this way to ensure rates and conditions are fair?


Of course they're protected, we're all protected. But it's a free market - supply and demand. Have we really got to go to that level to explain what happened to drivers wages under open borders policy? You just explained to us how the free market - *the EU 'single market'* - worked in practice, in Cornwall.


----------



## andysays (Jul 22, 2021)

two sheds said:


> No, I said "we should have some fucking employment laws that stop that sort of thing and give people - particularly providing essential service - good pay and conditions." Companies can find a whole lot of reasons why pay should be really low. That's why we need laws to stop them.


It's worth pointing out here that we did have employment laws while were in the EU (indeed they were often held up as being something we couldn't hope to achieve were we not in the EU), but that those employment laws *still* didn't prevent the undermining of pay and conditions in many industries, including haulage, which were able to rely on workers from poorer parts of the EU, which effectively kept wage levels lower than they would otherwise be, and allowed employers to get away with not training sufficient new drivers to keep the industry going.


----------



## bimble (Jul 22, 2021)

Imagine if truck driving was less of a last bastion of manliness, and wasnt missing out on half the potential workforce, that might've have helped make it a bit more resilient to change, or if more women were drivers would that be just as bad as foreigners and push down wages.


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 22, 2021)

LOL. Ouff. I think the wheels just came off ..


----------



## two sheds (Jul 22, 2021)

Carpenter who did some work for me hated Blair with a passion because Europeans came over, forcing down pay and conditions for his work, too.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jul 22, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> LOL. Ouff. I think the wheels just came off ..


Must be all the frantic editing of posts


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 22, 2021)

ditto your Polish plumbers. UK self-employed were a sitting target for eastern economic migrants arriving under open borders -  a _massive_ mismatch of national economic development . Can't pay a family-sized mortgage when your competitior is sharing a trailer in Esssex with 6 other plumbers.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jul 22, 2021)

Any other nationalities to grump about?


----------



## two sheds (Jul 22, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> ditto your Polish plumbers. UK self-employed were a sitting target for eastern economic migrants arriving under open borders.


because there weren't laws to stop that. Just have a proper living wage for anyone who is in the country. Why do you keep ignoring this?


----------



## bimble (Jul 22, 2021)

Maybe this is the nub of why i'm such a remoaner. I don't really get the thing of why british jobs for british people is an unquestionable good, why it's important that people from poorer countries stay poorer. Maybe it doesn't help that I'm a child of 'economic migrants'.


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 22, 2021)

two sheds said:


> because there weren't laws to stop that. Just have a proper living wage for anyone who is in the country. Why do you keep ignoring this?


There are laws. They're called ... _checks notes_ .. immigration laws. We have those now. Have a stab at why that it. It begins with B and involved a national referendum.


----------



## Yossarian (Jul 22, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Not if there were laws to protect people by stopping that. You don't think workers should be protected in this way to ensure rates and conditions are fair?



It wasn't all that long ago that British builders were the ones who got jobs in Germany by working for lower wages, until the Germans banned "wage dumping."





__





						British brickies face sack from German jobs
					

IMRE KARACS




					www.independent.co.uk


----------



## andysays (Jul 22, 2021)

bimble said:


> Imagine if truck driving was less of a last bastion of manliness, and wasnt missing out on half the potential workforce, that might've have helped make it a bit more resilient to change, or if more women were drivers would that be just as bad as foreigners and push down wages.


One of the reasons it's "a last bastion of manliness", if indeed that's the case, is because in many ways the conditions within the industry are far from ideal, and many women, especially those with children and other caring commitments, quite sensibly decide it's not for them, especially given the poor level of pay.

But it's starting to sound like you're sneering at truck drivers rather than showing any degree of empathy or understanding of the difficult job they do which, joking aside, many/most here are probably not cut out for.


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 22, 2021)

bimble said:


> Maybe this is the nub of why i'm such a remoaner. I don't really get the thing of why british jobs for british people is an unquestionable good, why it's important that people from poorer countries stay poorer. Maybe it doesn't help that I'm a child of 'economic migrants'.


What the screaming fuck. Do you honestly not understand that earnings is relative to an economy, that a Polish plumber earns as much relative to the Polish economy as a British plumber does to the British economy - his family is still essentially middle class, in Poland.

Tell me people here understand basic international economics.


----------



## two sheds (Jul 22, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> There are laws. They're called ... _checks notes_ .. immigration laws. We have those now. Have a stab at why that it.


No I can't see this being marty1, marty1 wasn't this stupid


----------



## andysays (Jul 22, 2021)

bimble said:


> Maybe this is the nub of why i'm such a remoaner. I don't really get the thing of why *british jobs for british people is an unquestionable good, why it's important that people from poorer countries stay poorer*. Maybe it doesn't help that I'm a child of 'economic migrants'.


I'm not sure that anyone posting here (with the possible exception of Loose Meat who I've had on ignore for ages) is actually saying that though.


----------



## bimble (Jul 22, 2021)

andysays said:


> One of the reasons it's "a last bastion of manliness", if indeed that's the case, is because in many ways the conditions within the industry are far from ideal, and many women, especially those with children and other caring commitments, quite sensibly decide it's not for them, especially given the poor level of pay.
> 
> But it's starting to sound like you're sneering at truck drivers rather than showing any degree of empathy or understanding of the difficult job they do which, joking aside, many/most here are probably not cut out for.


i'm not at all sneering. Of course it would not be for everyone but if that link is true and its really just 1% women that's pretty unusual.


----------



## bimble (Jul 22, 2021)

two sheds said:


> No I can't see this being marty1, marty1 wasn't this stupid


its definitely him.


----------



## two sheds (Jul 22, 2021)

Our friendly Amazon driver marty1? THAT marty1?


----------



## andysays (Jul 22, 2021)

bimble said:


> i'm not at all sneering.


That's how it's starting to come across, TBH.

If you're concerned, maybe think about why that might be; if not, by all means carry on.


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 22, 2021)

two sheds said:


> because *there weren't laws to stop that. Just have a proper living wage for anyone who is in the country. Why do you keep ignoring this*?



This is literally the silliest Remainer post I've seen on this message board. Is there somewhere I can nominate this for the Open Borders / UK Brexit Referendum Award ?


----------



## bimble (Jul 22, 2021)

andysays said:


> That's how it's starting to come across, TBH.
> 
> If you're concerned, maybe think about why that might be; if not, by all means carry on.


you know, equally, your idea that almost no hgv drivers are women is cos 'the conditions are far from ideal' & they're probably mothers does not come across as completely un-sneery to me.


----------



## two sheds (Jul 22, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> This is literally the silliest post I've seen on this message board. Is there somewhere I can nominate this for the Open Borders / UK Brexit Referendum Award ?


You don't believe in a minimum hourly rate for people working in this country? If it doesn't cover everyone then companies will be able to get round it by employing cheap labour. There'd be no point.


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 22, 2021)

bimble said:


> i'm not at all sneering. Of course it would not be for everyone but if that link is true and its really just 1% women that's pretty unusual.



It's not that usual. There is masses of data from the early industrial age that shows men lean towards working with things, and women lead towards working with humans.

That is why the idea of equality of outcome - 50% men/women in every job must equal fairness - is so derided by proponents of eqaulity of opportunity, which leaves it up to individuls to choose i.e. nurses vs. bricklayers, etc.


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 22, 2021)

two sheds said:


> You don't believe in a minimum hourly rate for people working in this country? If it doesn't cover everyone then companies will be able to get round it by employing cheap labour. There'd be no point.


I'd encourage you to begin a re-think. Strip it back to basics. You're arse is hanging out upside down in the air.


----------



## bimble (Jul 22, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> It's not that usual. There is masses of data from the early industrial age that shows men lean towards working with things, and women lead towards working with humans.
> 
> That is why the idea of equality of outcome - 50% men/women in every job must equal fairness - is so derided by proponents of eqaulity of opportunity, which leaves it up to individuls to choose i.e. nurses vs. bricklayers, etc.


oh right. thanks for explaining that to me marty.


----------



## andysays (Jul 22, 2021)

bimble said:


> you know, equally, your idea that almost no hgv drivers are women is cos 'the conditions are far from ideal' & they're probably mothers does not come across as completely un-sneery to me.


Feel free to suggest an alternative hypothesis if you don't like mine. I'm not putting it forward as anything definitive.


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 22, 2021)

whatever, Marty. Happy to help.


----------



## two sheds (Jul 22, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> I'd encourage you to begin a re-think. Strip it back to basics. You're arse is hanging out upside down in the air.


Did marty1 do this sort of shit before and I just didn't notice it? He's gone down since then.


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 22, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Did marty1 do this sort of shit before and I just didn't notice it? He's gone down since then.


Hey Marty, what's it like to have been a Brexiteer all along but being too preoccupied with 'fitting in' with people you'll never meet you didn't even know it..


----------



## bimble (Jul 22, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Did marty1 do this sort of shit before and I just didn't notice it? He's gone down since then.


yeah i think the demise of the donald has taken a toll.


----------



## Yossarian (Jul 22, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> It's not that usual. There is masses of data from the early industrial age that shows men lean towards working with things, and women lead towards working with humans.
> 
> That is why the idea of equality of outcome - 50% men/women in every job must equal fairness - is so derided by proponents of eqaulity of opportunity, which leaves it up to individuls to choose i.e. nurses vs. bricklayers, etc.



Women are better drivers though. Behind the Wheel, Women Are Safer Drivers Than Men (Published 2020)


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 22, 2021)

What the screaming fuck has that got to do with individual employment preferences. 

That's all the stupidity I can take for one visit.


----------



## bimble (Jul 22, 2021)

andysays said:


> Feel free to suggest an alternative hypothesis if you don't like mine. I'm not putting it forward as anything definitive.


A small google led to nothing at all surprising, an illustrated article in the sun about how hot glamorous women CAN be truckers too, 'and they can reverse!'. Basically as with everything, including software engineering etc, i think its just about reaching a point where you (women or whatever else) are not in a tiny conspicuous minority , that changes the culture of the job & makes more people feel like they could enter the profession thats all.


----------



## Yossarian (Jul 22, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Did marty1 do this sort of shit before and I just didn't notice it? He's gone down since then.



Marty1 was a commercial driver, or claimed to be, I think he might have been able to provide slightly more worthwhile insights than whoever this one is - if the real Marty1 returned I think there's no way in hell he'd be able to keep himself away from the Trump threads, it's what got him banned in the first place.


----------



## Raheem (Jul 22, 2021)

Do you mean he might be faking being Marty1? Despicable if true.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 22, 2021)

Raheem said:


> Do you mean he might be faking being Marty1? Despicable if true.


That would be great if true. Imagine having to do the research by reading every one of Marty1s posts and the replies and then work that into your impression of what his online persona would be like.   

Mind you sometimes  the impression you get of of peoples online names or  personas are way off the mark when you meet them in real life. I always imagined that friedaweed  was some skinny hippy with locks and coloured leggings before I met him.


----------



## bimble (Jul 22, 2021)

Three grand to get a hgv license in this country. That is mad.


----------



## Raheem (Jul 22, 2021)

bimble said:


> Three grand to get a hgv license in this country. That is mad.


Less than a degree, and a higher return in many cases.


----------



## Ax^ (Jul 22, 2021)

I'm sure the goverment will step up and provide the budget to start training people to fill this skill gap


or just give visa to foreign drivers 

which ever is cheaper

yay for Brexit


----------



## bimble (Jul 22, 2021)

Raheem said:


> Less than a degree, and a higher return in many cases.


You can get class 2 for a grand. I don’t know what that means but it still seems a lot.


----------



## Ax^ (Jul 22, 2021)

you can drive a ridged truck ie one that the cab does not seperate from think a bin lorry or simular lorry

you need a class 1 for what you think as a real truck


----------



## bimble (Jul 22, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> I'm sure the goverment will step up and provide the budget to start training people to fill this skill gap
> 
> 
> or just give visa to foreign drivers
> ...


I’m surprised they haven’t just caved already and added hgv drivers to fruit pickers as special cases allowed to keep coming here without decent pay / particular points.

money for apprentice drivers & shorter hgv training they’re offering


----------



## Ax^ (Jul 22, 2021)

nice lowering driving standards and removing the workers rights to break due to the tacho

expecting the tories to support the working man


----------



## bimble (Jul 22, 2021)

Really interesting reading actual drivers responses to it all on the Twitter, their takes on why so few younger British people are coming into the job here & haven’t for years. Like you have to pay stupidly loads to qualify and then nobody wants drivers without a years experience, then you pay loads more to park up anywhere that’s legal, as required by law, probably fight someone for your space cos there are nowhere near enough.
If when you’re off for a wee some migrants manage to hide in yr truck en route you go to prison. 
No facilities, or massively expensive ones at service stations.
It basically doesn’t make any sense unless you’re earning more after all of that than you could at home / elsewhere.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 22, 2021)

Raheem said:


> Less than a degree, and a higher return in many cases.


We’ve found a potential army of reserve labour . Get the students to jack in zoom lectures and hanging round bars calling people mate and get them into a vocation with a qualification that could pay them more . Great thinking .


----------



## two sheds (Jul 22, 2021)

When there are so many positions for filling out customs forms? I think not.


----------



## bimble (Jul 22, 2021)

the problems the drivers are talking about are not confined to the industry itself,  even if pay went up a lot it's broader than that,  the infrastructure & culture & laws of the land are unusually hostile to the life of long distance trucking. Which makes sense, cctv everywhere , all those laws to criminalise parking your van where you want etc.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 22, 2021)

two sheds said:


> When there are so many positions for filling out customs forms? I think not.


Wouldn’t trust a student to do that tbh


----------



## bimble (Jul 22, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> There is masses of data from the early industrial age that shows men lean towards working with things, and women lead towards working with humans.


Hours have passed and i am still sat here marvelling at this insight.
the early industrial age's employment distribution = a great way of revealing the innate skills & desires of women and men. Apart from the people who worked at factories obvs, women & girls were just really drawn to those things.









oh.


----------



## brogdale (Jul 22, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> What the screaming fuck. Do you honestly not understand that earnings is relative to an economy, that a Polish plumber earns as much relative to the Polish economy as a British plumber does to the British economy - his family is still essentially middle class, in Poland.
> 
> Tell me people here understand basic international economics.


I think people here understand basic international economics; but just to be sure...maybe you could say what you understand by basic international economics; for instance are you angling at purchasing power parity ("Big Mac index") as a justification for your isolationist position?


----------



## bimble (Jul 22, 2021)

When he says 'a Polish plumber earns as much relative to the Polish economy as a British plumber does to the British economy' what does it even remotely mean? Can't possibly mean a Polish plumber plumbing in actual Poland.
I think he just means America First.


----------



## brogdale (Jul 22, 2021)

bimble said:


> When he says 'a Polish plumber earns as much relative to the Polish economy as a British plumber does to the British economy' what does it even remotely mean? Can't possibly mean a Polish plumber plumbing in actual Poland.
> I think he just means America First.


Yes; I suspect that the troll's ideological position is predominantly a nativist/nationalist one, but he's accused posters here of not understanding _International Economics _which is..._checks notes..._QI.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jul 22, 2021)

No idea why your engaging with this decrepit pile of fly addled meat


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jul 22, 2021)

bimble said:


> Really interesting reading actual drivers responses to it all on the Twitter, their takes on why so few younger British people are coming into the job here & haven’t for years. *Like you have to pay stupidly loads to qualify and then nobody wants drivers without a years experience, t*hen you pay loads more to park up anywhere that’s legal, as required by law, probably fight someone for your space cos there are nowhere near enough.
> If when you’re off for a wee some migrants manage to hide in yr truck en route you go to prison.
> No facilities, or massively expensive ones at service stations.
> It basically doesn’t make any sense unless you’re earning more after all of that than you could at home / elsewhere.



Same in most industries these days, junior positions needing degrees and three years experience. Almost every IT job I see advertised for newbies expects you to have degree and more importantly experience.

Even half the hospitality stuff expects you to have experience - wife spent a few months applying for café jobs back in like 2014/2015 and none would take her as no experience.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 22, 2021)

brogdale said:


> I think people here understand basic international economics; but just to be sure...maybe you could say what you understand by basic international economics; for instance are you angling at purchasing power parity ("Big Mac index") as a justification for your isolationist position?


Yup Urban is the first  call , checks notes, for a basic understanding of international  economics. Please follow us for part 2 of Bimble and others discover how working class people struggle for a career that pays and how focussing on Marty1's latest incarnation  can divert us from these depressing issues. News follows.


----------



## xenon (Jul 22, 2021)

He is not Marty1 for God sake.


----------



## xenon (Jul 22, 2021)

Anyone else think the NI/EU border issue will just be kicked down the road for a couple years,  insuring very comfortable retirements for more lawyers, before rejoining the customs union in all but name.


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 22, 2021)

> Yes; I suspect that the troll's ideological position is predominantly a nativist/nationalist one, but he's accused posters here of not understanding _International Economics _which is..._checks notes..._QI.



I won't be the first to mention to you that you are a predicatable, repetive boor; boorish and crass. Of course U75 is important in you life.


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 22, 2021)

xenon said:


> He is not Marty1 for God sake.



They've conditioned themselves to behave on here so as to conform to the group. Not a single one thinks independently. The group comes first, you can't risk having a different opinion even if you were capable of it: yeah he's Marty! Marty! - everyone back me up, be in with the gang: Marty! Marty! Marty!

Anything other than think for yourselves.


----------



## two sheds (Jul 22, 2021)

bit late for your daily "hate" and you've not mentioned likes


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 22, 2021)

Here he is, U75s Brexit legal correspondent. Doesn't know which end is up.


----------



## Raheem (Jul 22, 2021)

xenon said:


> Anyone else think the NI/EU border issue will just be kicked down the road for a couple years,  insuring very comfortable retirements for more lawyers, before rejoining the customs union in all but name.


Nah. I'd don't think it can be allowed to slide for that long, and I also don't think the UK can be back in the customs union that quickly. There will have to be either implementation or a sanctions/trade war scenario by the end of the year.


----------



## MrSki (Jul 23, 2021)

For anyone who thinks the 'empty shelves' are all covid related then read this and pick it apart.









						‘A Convenient Scapegoat’: Empty Shelves are due to Brexit Not the Pingdemic – Here’s the Evidence – Byline Times
					

With supply chain problems being blamed on workers self-isolating, Caolan Robertson reports on what business owners, managers and labourers have been telling him across the country about the consequences of Brexit




					bylinetimes.com


----------



## krtek a houby (Jul 23, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> I won't be the first to mention to you that you are a predicatable, repetive boor; boorish and crass. Of course U75 is important in you life.



It's_ clearly_ important in your life, otherwise you wouldn't have come back.

Don't be coy. We know you're not Marty1. So, who did you used to be and why did you return?

To settle some scores etc?


----------



## bimble (Jul 23, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> No idea why your engaging with this decrepit pile of fly addled meat


Whole thread is a dry old bit of antique beef so why not.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jul 23, 2021)

bimble said:


> Whole thread is a dry old bit of antique beef so why not.



Proper old English beef, full of prions and parasites


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 23, 2021)

MrSki said:


> For anyone who thinks the 'empty shelves' are all covid related then read this and pick it apart.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


For anyone who thinks an article by  the former camera man  and ally of Tommy Robinson is worth picking apart


----------



## brogdale (Jul 23, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> Here he is, U75s Brexit legal correspondent. Doesn't know which end is up.


Clown troll.


----------



## Ax^ (Jul 23, 2021)

xenon said:


> He is not Marty1 for God sake.



quiet you


----------



## bimble (Jul 23, 2021)

No more self isolation pings for the lorry drivers or other essential supply chain workers now, so that must mean no more empty shelves.


----------



## two sheds (Jul 23, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Clown troll.


Was clearly a mistake to try and discuss something with it. Show there's no need to keep johnny foreigner out of the country and it's off into abuse. Mind you, can't really expect anything else from the sort of person who believes anything Johnson and Cummings write on the side of a bus ...


----------



## keybored (Jul 23, 2021)

bimble said:


> lol. The lorry drivers shortage has absolutely nothing to do with brexit its 100% all those romanians getting pinged by the ap.


Probably been covered by now, but the problem is global.








						Can a TikTok star or autonomous trucks reverse the global shortage of commercial drivers?
					

There are too few drivers entering the sector, according to a new survey. Without them, global supply chains may struggle to operate.




					www.weforum.org


----------



## Badgers (Jul 23, 2021)

bimble said:


> Three grand to get a hgv license in this country. That is mad.





MrSki said:


> For anyone who thinks the 'empty shelves' are all covid related then read this and pick it apart.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Bloody Remoaner fearmonger  

Brexit is going well #worldbeating and the NHS is so grateful for the £350m pw


----------



## keybored (Jul 23, 2021)

MadeInBedlam said:


> all the shops round here have run of out of fans (the air conditioning sort, *no idea about their support base*).


Wouldn't the fan keep falling over without one?


----------



## xenon (Jul 23, 2021)

Maybe cos of this thread, I got an advert on Youtube earlier for retraining as an HGV driver...


Listening to LBC this morning, a few truckers on. IR35 is also an issue, along with customs and Covid.


----------



## xenon (Jul 23, 2021)

Tesco online was noticeably out of a few items when I put an order in the other day. I'm expecting a few more missing items when it turns up on Monday.


----------



## NoXion (Jul 23, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> They've conditioned themselves to behave on here so as to conform to the group. Not a single one thinks independently. The group comes first, you can't risk having a different opinion even if you were capable of it: yeah he's Marty! Marty! - everyone back me up, be in with the gang: Marty! Marty! Marty!
> 
> Anything other than think for yourselves.



Marty1 was a cock, but he definitely lacked the same bitter edge this dude has. He's still got a massive and obvious chip on his shoulder despite being a new poster, so if he's a returner, he's someone else not Marty.


----------



## Ax^ (Jul 23, 2021)

We shall call him Marty2


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 23, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> We shall call him Marty2


Martyrdom


----------



## Ax^ (Jul 23, 2021)

is it not his plan tbh

he can blame the evil lefties for cancelling him


----------



## Raheem (Jul 23, 2021)

bimble said:


> No more self isolation pings for the lorry drivers or other essential supply chain workers now, so that must mean no more empty shelves.


Shouldn't take too long. Assuming everything is administered competently...


----------



## Badgers (Jul 23, 2021)

#worldbeating









						Fears over 'weakening' of UK green watchdog
					

Campaigners fear that a body designed to protect the environment is being undermined.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jul 23, 2021)

Raheem said:


> Shouldn't take too long. Assuming everything is administered competently...




No squeezy Marmite in Sainsbury's today, that's one of my shoplifting staples and it's just not there for me to pockle


----------



## Raheem (Jul 23, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> No squeezy Marmite in Sainsbury's today, that's one of my shoplifting staples and it's just not there for me to pockle


The thieves always get thought of last.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jul 23, 2021)

Raheem said:


> The thieves always get thought of last.




It's criminal.


----------



## Lurdan (Jul 23, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> No squeezy Marmite in Sainsbury's today, that's one of my shoplifting staples and it's just not there for me to pockle



It's not been manufactured since last year.








Maid's annual day off was it ?


----------



## MrSki (Jul 23, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> No squeezy Marmite in Sainsbury's today, that's one of my shoplifting staples and it's just not there for me to pockle


I thought you shopped in Alldi or Lidl?    

Do you just go to Sainsbury's squeezy Marmite?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jul 23, 2021)

Lurdan said:


> It's not been manufactured since last year.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I normally chore the glass version (gets all the bread crumbs in for added flavour), but we're packing for a holiday and don't like to pack glass jars of the stuff in with our smalls and shit.


----------



## MrSki (Jul 23, 2021)

Lurdan said:


> It's not been manufactured since last year.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Glad I have three big jars in the cupboard.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jul 23, 2021)

MrSki said:


> I thought you shopped in Alldi or Lidl?
> 
> Do you just go to Sainsbury's squeezy Marmite?




Sainsbury's is a three minute walk from home, so weekly shop at Aldi in Burpham, but keep shoplifting local.


----------



## MrSki (Jul 23, 2021)

Not only is there no squeezy...


----------



## Supine (Jul 23, 2021)

I’ve not been commenting on the food shelf stuff because who knows how much is covid or Brexit related.

I have to say though, our local spar today is seriously short of stock. As in they’ll probably need to shut by tomorrow if they dont get new stock. Honestly, never seen anything like it. I’m going squirrel hunting in the morning.


----------



## Badgers (Jul 24, 2021)

*Warburton’s 2016:*
"Brexit is a very good thing to have happened. We are well out of the rotting corpse of Europe”

*Warburton's July 2021:*
Sorry for the shortage of bread, we don't have enough drivers to deliver bread nationwide, many have gone back to the EU


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 24, 2021)

Badgers said:


> *Warburton’s 2016:*
> "Brexit is a very good thing to have happened. We are well out of the rotting corpse of Europe”
> 
> *Warburton's July 2021:*
> We are the rotting corpse of Europe


C4U


----------



## Badgers (Jul 24, 2021)

Did also read that Warburton's used to export a lot of bread to Europe. They were unable to supply it due to Brexit so an Irish bakery has taken over that market.


----------



## Badgers (Jul 24, 2021)

Anyway... 

The #ToryScum donor cunts can fucking fuck off


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 24, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Anyway...
> 
> The #ToryScum donor cunts can fucking fuck off


The chickens are coming home to roost


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 24, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Did also read that Warburton's used to export a lot of bread to Europe. They were unable to supply it due to Brexit so an Irish bakery has taken over that market.


They had a spell of exporting to Eastern Europe around 2010  I think as it was in the Manchester Evening News and I remember thinking how ironic it was as Manchester had several Polish bakeries. who made fantastic rustic bread. Never seen it here tbh.


----------



## Ax^ (Jul 24, 2021)

your heart bleeds for this gobshite

"you can't fill minium wage jobs"


----------



## brogdale (Jul 24, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> your heart bleeds for this gobshite
> 
> "you can't fill minium wage jobs"



The separation of the self into business person and then individual was a tad disturbing.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 24, 2021)

Low paid bar staff are everywhere here, I was speaking to Marria who used to work at one of my local bars who said she was paid 3.5 euros an hour when she worked there. All cash in hand no contract, 'perks 'were tips and the Portuguese rarely tip and a free meal.  Lots of the cooks are Brazilian turning out fantastic everyday grub on 5 euros an hour. Hotels tend to have staff on contract and pay the minimum wage and there is some trade union presence


----------



## MrSki (Jul 24, 2021)

I thought this was a windup


----------



## Dogsauce (Jul 24, 2021)

S☼I said:


> Had some wheat crunchies out of a vending machine at work the other week for the first time in a decade. Fucking banging.


The nadir of my impoverished student/doley days saw me use wheat crunchies as a meat substitute to accompany some out-of-date packet biryani rice. This has tarnished them for me a bit tbh.


----------



## Dogsauce (Jul 24, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> At the most basic level there is a tipping point, if they have no goods to sell they make no money, therefore they have to spend to get the goods on the shelves.
> 
> Fuck ‘em anyway, why do people shop in these places when Aldi and Lidl are so much cheaper and treat their staff better?


Tbh Aldi/Lidl seem to have very few staff, so I suspect they work them quite hard, jumping on and off the tills. Fewer staff/smaller more efficient stores is probably how they make their money.  But yes, can’t understand why you’d shop anywhere else other than for the handful of things they don’t have (for me that’s currants, tival hot dogs, chopped frozen spinach, tinned pineapple, have to go to Sainsbury’s for those).


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jul 24, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Low paid bar staff are everywhere here, I was speaking to Marria who used to work at one of my local bars who said she was paid 3.5 euros an hour when she worked there. All cash in hand no contract, 'perks 'were tips and the Portuguese rarely tip and a free meal.  Lots of the cooks are Brazilian turning out fantastic everyday grub on 5 euros an hour. Hotels tend to have staff on contract and pay the minimum wage and there is some trade union presence



Universally speaking the entire hospitality industry is a fucking cess pool of shit conditions


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jul 24, 2021)

Dogsauce said:


> Tbh Aldi/Lidl seem to have very few staff, so I suspect they work them quite hard, jumping on and off the tills. Fewer staff/smaller more efficient stores is probably how they make their money.  But yes, can’t understand why you’d shop anywhere else other than for the handful of things they don’t have (for me that’s currants, tival hot dogs, chopped frozen spinach, tinned pineapple, have to go to Sainsbury’s for those).



Tbf the staff seem happier than Sainsbury’s and Tesco, I like being worked hard, makes the shift go faster.


----------



## Ax^ (Jul 24, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Did also read that Warburton's used to export a lot of bread to Europe. They were unable to supply it due to Brexit so an Irish bakery has taken over that market.



so you are telling me Europe can get irish bread and i'm stuck with Warburtons


*shakes fist at Brexiteers


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 24, 2021)

Project Fear brings news of fresh madness:



> On Friday, the supermarkets Asda, Tesco and Sainsbury’s began asking suppliers for* extra payments to cover the costs of raising wage*s for delivery drivers *in a desperate move* to offset shortages.



But hang on, is it a shortage of drivers - 100K The Guardian keeps reminding us, or a shortage of workers prepared to accept low wages - saying here higher wages would "offset shortages".  

Anyway the latter is clearly the wrong thing to do becasue, as the Guardian explains, offering higher wages is a "desperate move".











						UK lorry drivers plan to strike over low pay and poor working conditions
					

Nearly 3,000 hauliers are proposing a ‘stay at home’ day, prompting fears over already creaking food supply chains




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Yossarian (Jul 24, 2021)

If you want to argue against things you read in the Guardian, maybe the "why the Guardian is crap" thread would be a good place for it.


----------



## Ax^ (Jul 24, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> Project Fear brings news of fresh madness:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



what the fuck are you trying to say meat?

or is it all the Guardian fault

would like to say you are a busted flush but you had to be promising to start with


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 24, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> If you want to argue against things you read in the Guardian, maybe the "why the Guardian is crap" thread would be a good place for it.


That would pretty much decimate every other thread aside from ‘why the Guardian is crap’


----------



## Ax^ (Jul 24, 2021)

the guardian troll is weird

saying that not weird that people trying to defending racist people in football crowds by proclaiming its working class thing


----------



## Supine (Jul 24, 2021)

Today. Worryingly the beer shelf is also 3/4 depleted


----------



## Ax^ (Jul 24, 2021)

make mental note Sainsbury is shite


----------



## bimble (Jul 24, 2021)

Supine said:


> Worryingly the beer shelf is also 3/4 depleted


That was me sorry.


----------



## Ax^ (Jul 24, 2021)

how you could buy that much beer whilst resisting the dry roasted kp nuts is weird

*broken Britain


----------



## Supine (Jul 24, 2021)

bimble said:


> That was me sorry.



Right - you’ve had more than your fair share.   No more beer from my local shop pls.


----------



## bimble (Jul 24, 2021)

People are going to start ‘panic buying’ / buying extra when they see that beer is there aren’t they. I probably will tbh. Making the whole thing 10 x worse.


----------



## Ax^ (Jul 24, 2021)

how people can drink 440ml cans is beyond me :/

tic tacs over dry roasted


----------



## Dystopiary (Jul 24, 2021)

Comment from Cold War Steve:


----------



## Smangus (Jul 24, 2021)

bimble said:


> People are going to start ‘panic buying’ / buying extra when they see that beer is there aren’t they. I probably will tbh. Making the whole thing 10 x worse.



I'm sticking to Negronis 😉


----------



## campanula (Jul 24, 2021)

Ah, my bro-in-law is a lorry driver. 70 hour weeks...and until recently, £9 per hour.  The extreme shortage did prompt a payrise of £100 per week, but nonetheless, it is a grinding, tedious, brutal job.


----------



## Lorca (Jul 24, 2021)

Yes, i drive for a living and it's also getting progressively harder simply due to way too many vehicles on the arterial motorways in particular. It just means you have to really concentrate hard and it's tiring. Plus it seems to me at least that drivers are becoming ever more agressive and selfish. Driving every day aint much fun!


----------



## bimble (Jul 24, 2021)

Raheem said:


> Shouldn't take too long. Assuming everything is administered competently...


'several food industry leaders responsible for the supply chain told the _Observer_ the measures had been so badly mishandled and poorly communicated that they had made the crisis worse..'










						Food bosses say ministers are making England’s Covid ‘pingdemic’ supply chaos worse
					

Scheme to prevent knock-on effect on food of ‘pingdemic’ is branded an absolute disaster as railways and airports are hit by staff self-isolating




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## brogdale (Jul 24, 2021)

The reverse Midas touch.


----------



## Spymaster (Jul 24, 2021)

bimble said:


> 'several food industry leaders responsible for the supply chain told the _Observer_ the measures had been so badly mishandled and poorly communicated that they had made the crisis worse..'
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It's very important that any article specifically pointing at Covid problems, is related to BrexiT!


----------



## bimble (Jul 24, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> It's very important that any article specifically pointing at Covid problems, is related to BrexiT!


Don’t worry, soon as they sort the ping thing out the whole food supply issue will disappear. Nothing to do with brexit. That will become clear on 16th August at the very latest.


----------



## Ax^ (Jul 24, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> It's very important that any article specifically pointing at Covid problems, is related to BrexiT!



hmm who the fuck brought up truck drivers in the first place

jebus if it was amazon drivers we could call the cunt marty1

if one of these fuckwits worked in the job they are using to make a point...


----------



## Spymaster (Jul 24, 2021)

bimble said:


> Don’t worry, soon as they sort the ping thing out the whole food supply issue will disappear. Nothing to do with brexit. That will become clear on 16th August at the very latest.











						Gang-gang cockatoo could be listed as endangered species
					

Currently, there are 168 animal species classified as endangered in Australia, including 55 types of birds.




					www.canberratimes.com.au


----------



## Ax^ (Jul 24, 2021)

shame its not the lyrebird


----------



## bimble (Jul 24, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Gang-gang cockatoo could be listed as endangered species
> 
> 
> Currently, there are 168 animal species classified as endangered in Australia, including 55 types of birds.
> ...





			https://fruitsandveggies.org/stories/top-10-ways-to-enjoy-turnips/


----------



## Spymaster (Jul 24, 2021)

bimble said:


> https://fruitsandveggies.org/stories/top-10-ways-to-enjoy-turnips/











						Warming Trends: Increasing Heat is Dangerous for Pilgrims, Climate Warnings Painted on Seaweed and Many Plots a Global Forest Make - Inside Climate News
					

CULTURE Global Warming Poses Danger to Pilgrims Millions travel to Mecca in Saudi Arabia every year to fulfill one of the five pillars of the Islamic faith—the “hajj,” a pilgrimage to the sacred city every Muslim who is able must take. But the physically demanding experience, which requires long...




					insideclimatenews.org


----------



## Spymaster (Jul 24, 2021)

__





						16-Year-Old Charged In ‘Accidental’ Shooting That Killed Another Teen In Dallas, Police Say
					





					www.msn.com


----------



## bimble (Jul 24, 2021)

Not quite sure what’s going on here but if you really do think the food supply problem has nothing to do with brexit you’re about 700 times more stupid than you look. Take that as a compliment. It’ll all be fine in 2 weeks anyway, when nobody has to isolate any more, so relax.


----------



## Spymaster (Jul 24, 2021)

UK weather: lightning strikes homes in Hampshire as country hit by storms
					

Yellow weather warning issued for southern England and Wales with risk of difficult driving conditions




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Ax^ (Jul 24, 2021)

*shakes fist at the guradian

even have their own NFL team now


----------



## xenon (Jul 24, 2021)

Supine said:


> Right - you’ve had more than your fair share.   No more beer from my local shop pls.



Haven't we all been panic drinking since March 2020?


----------



## Spymaster (Jul 24, 2021)

Fucking nightmare in Morrisons this afternoon


----------



## two sheds (Jul 24, 2021)

They look like middle class remainer shelves to me


----------



## Supine (Jul 24, 2021)

Let’s all eat rice!


----------



## Ax^ (Jul 24, 2021)

#notmybrexit


----------



## Spymaster (Jul 24, 2021)

Supine said:


> Let’s all eat rice!



Aye. All the other aisles were empty. I got them to stack that one


----------



## xenon (Jul 24, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Fucking nightmare in Morrisons this afternoon
> 
> View attachment 280389



I thought you were banned from there, since the incident?

Sorry, incidents....


----------



## Spymaster (Jul 24, 2021)

xenon said:


> I thought you were banned from there, since the incident?
> 
> Sorry, incidents....



That was Lidl.


----------



## 2hats (Jul 24, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Fucking nightmare in Morrisons this afternoon
> 
> View attachment 280389


It said Morrisons over the door, but inside it was a Sainsbury's?


----------



## two sheds (Jul 24, 2021)

2hats said:


> It said Morrisons over the door, but inside it was a Sainsbury's?


AHA !!!!


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 24, 2021)

two sheds said:


> They look like middle class remainer shelves to me


Funnily enough, I've just been contacted by an old, old friend about this issue who has come out of retirement due to cryptocurrency issues. He is sending me a summary of his proposal for his next novel.   More details tomorrow. Keep this frequency clear


----------



## Raheem (Jul 24, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Fucking nightmare in Morrisons this afternoon
> 
> View attachment 280389


I note with interest that there appear to be gaps where a number of varieties of Uncle Ben's ought to be.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 24, 2021)

Raheem said:


> I note with interest that there appear to be gaps where a number of varieties of Uncle Ben's ought to be.


Withdrawn for racial stereotyping


----------



## two sheds (Jul 24, 2021)

woke nonsense


----------



## Maltin (Jul 24, 2021)

2hats said:


> It said Morrisons over the door, but inside it was a Sainsbury's?


With these pictures all being taken over a year ago, it’s easy to get confused.


----------



## Raheem (Jul 24, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Withdrawn for racial stereotyping


So I suppose they'll put them back once that's done.


----------



## Supine (Jul 24, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Fucking nightmare in Morrisons this afternoon
> 
> View attachment 280389



your deli is well shit


----------



## two sheds (Jul 24, 2021)

All European origin is deli french and german and italian and things "none of your british rubbish"


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 24, 2021)

Raheem said:


> So I suppose they'll put them back once that's done.


Everything has a shelf life


----------



## Supine (Jul 24, 2021)

two sheds said:


> All European origin is deli french and german and italian and things "none of your british rubbish"



Deli counter. Soon to be replaced by the squirrel carcass isle


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 24, 2021)

Maltin said:


> With these pictures all being taken over a year ago, it’s easy to get confused.


No problems here this afternoon


----------



## Maltin (Jul 24, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Everything has a shelf life


I’m not sure Brexit does. It’s rottenness will fester for a long time to come.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jul 24, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> how you could buy that much beer whilst resisting the dry roasted kp nuts is weird
> 
> *broken Britain



Tic Tacs are out of stock so at least their breath won't give away they've been at the bottle.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 24, 2021)

Maltin said:


> I’m not sure Brexit does. It’s rottenness will fester for a long time to come.


I'm sure you'll get over it. Bigger issues in life tbh


----------



## Saul Goodman (Jul 24, 2021)

Maltin said:


> I’m not sure Brexit does.


Or Twinkies.


----------



## two sheds (Jul 24, 2021)

Supine said:


> Deli counter. Soon to be replaced by the squirrel carcass isle


They're a DELICACY. Met a bloke in the woods who shot (grey) squirrels for Truro restaurants. I asked him whether they were down as 'squirrel' on the menu and he insisted they were. He got an earful from someone who was incensed that he could shoot nice cuddly things like (grey) squirrels


----------



## Maltin (Jul 24, 2021)

Saul Goodman said:


> Or Twinkies.


At least I can think of some benefit of twinkies.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jul 24, 2021)

two sheds said:


> They're a DELICACY. Met a bloke in the woods who shot (grey) squirrels for Truro restaurants. I asked him whether they were down as 'squirrel' on the menu and he insisted they were. He got an earful from someone who was incensed that he could shoot nice cuddly things like (grey) squirrels



Vicious little vermin.


----------



## two sheds (Jul 24, 2021)

no he was actually quite friendly


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 24, 2021)

Another positive development. There hasn’t been a better time for a generation for workers to organise and extract concessions from their bosses:









						UK lorry drivers plan to strike over low pay and poor working conditions
					

Nearly 3,000 hauliers are proposing a ‘stay at home’ day, prompting fears over already creaking food supply chains




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 24, 2021)

Even Bastani gets the changing terrain:


----------



## Saul Goodman (Jul 24, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Another positive development. There hasn’t been a better time for a generation for workers to organise and extract concessions from their bosses:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Maybe this will be one of the benefits of Brexit.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 24, 2021)

Saul Goodman said:


> Maybe this will be one of the benefits of Brexit.


" But what about rising prices?"


----------



## MrSki (Jul 24, 2021)

2hats said:


> It said Morrisons over the door, but inside it was a Sainsbury's?


Last week Spymaster was claiming the photos on twitter of empty shelves were from last year but didn't reply if the next days frontpage photos were also from the previous year.


----------



## MrSki (Jul 24, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> " But what about rising prices?"


Well they will hit the poorest especially those on Universal Credit who are losing £20 a week from October. A lot of food prices have been creeping up already.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 25, 2021)

MrSki said:


> Well they will hit the poorest especially those on Universal Credit who are losing £20 a week from October. A lot of food prices have been creeping up already.


On one hand food prices are rising without wages rising, on the other hand, food prices will rise if workers get a pay rise and on yet another hand the best way to assist those on UC  really is for workers to refuse wage rises sort of stuff ? Yes I get your drift .


----------



## Raheem (Jul 25, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> On one hand food prices are rising without wages rising, on the other hand, food prices will rise if workers get a pay rise and on yet another hand the best way to assist those on UC  really is for workers to refuse wage rises sort of stuff ? Yes I get your drift .


The most rational answer would be to accept that there might be good items here and there that you can't by for a few weeks. It's only because that's intolerable to capitalism that wage rises become the lesser evil.

More importantly, wrong thread.


----------



## Spymaster (Jul 25, 2021)

Raheem said:


> I note with interest that there appear to be gaps where a number of varieties of Uncle Ben's ought to be.


That was me.


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 25, 2021)

It'll be interesting to see even small rises in poverty wage characterised as evil causes of inflation, as contrasted with residential property inflation of over 100% during the 10 years of peak Austerity - which wasn't characteristic as inflation at all; just one of those crazy free market outcomes - esentially free money for the righteous middle class.

For a government, there's an important double benefit from rising poverty wages; one, direct taxation revenues increase and second, smaller Universal Credit payments. They're going to need all of that when sovereign debt repayments begin to rise.

Another new source of unexpected income for the Gov is far grimmer; about £2 billion a year from reduced pension payments, plus an increase in Inheritance Tax.

The Gov has the capacity to handle wage inflation, it's the uexpected that's cause for concern. But it sure as hell won't be presented in that way in the Remain media.


----------



## brogdale (Jul 25, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> It'll be interesting to see even small rises in poverty wage characterised as evil causes of inflation, as contrasted with residential property inflation of over 100% during the 10 years of peak Austerity - which wasn't characteristic as inflation at all; just one of those crazy free market outcomes - esentially free money for the righteous middle class.
> 
> For a government, there's an important double benefit from rising poverty wages; one, direct taxation revenues increase and second, smaller Universal Credit payments. They're going to need all of that when sovereign debt repayments begin to rise.
> 
> ...


A good post that illustrates the base truth that neither neoliberal economics nor the agenda of the neoliberal, consolidator state are affected by the slight rearrangement of the political superstructure effected by exiting membership of the supra state.

_If_ some real-terms wages rise the Tories will, of course, see that threat to the neoliberal project as an opportunity to shift even more public revenue generation from capital to labour. We're already hearing the Johnson's "social care plan" will involve increased NI contribution etc.

Those seeking exit from the supra state certainly weren't doing so in order to raise real wages for the working class, and if that is an unintended macro-economic outcome, those same folk now in power will do what is required by capital to negate the cost burden.


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Jul 25, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Fucking nightmare in Morrisons this afternoon
> 
> View attachment 280389


Fake news that's Sainsburies.


----------



## MrSki (Jul 25, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> On one hand food prices are rising without wages rising, on the other hand, food prices will rise if workers get a pay rise and on yet another hand the best way to assist those on UC  really is for workers to refuse wage rises sort of stuff ? Yes I get your drift .


Not really what I said though is it?   

I would like to see the minimum wage increase to a level that it is actually enough to live on & UC (the taxpayer) is not subsidising Tescos & Sainsbury's wage bill.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 25, 2021)

MrSki said:


> Not really what I said though is it?
> 
> I would like to see the minimum wage increase to a level that it is actually enough to live on & UC (the taxpayer) is not subsidising Tescos & Sainsbury's wage bill.



The story I linked to isn’t about the Sainsbury’s or Tesco’s wage bill.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 25, 2021)

I'm quite excited by this book proposal from Johnny Favourite , the ex-leader of Skaters Against the War and the short lived Skaters Against Feral Youth.  Probably needs a bit more fleshing out and advice from someone on here about the technical issues of computers and portals (providing they don't bore everybody with recommending installing SSD cards )   but I  think it could even attract film rights tbh.



> Something is happening in the now affluent area of Cheadle High Street. Once a bastion of pre revolutionary optimism thrusting with advanced sections of the working class and anarchist estate agents the area has now been levelled up. The area is booming, the local Spar shop was replaced by a supermarket, more supermarkets arrived to meet demand .There are four supermarkets to every ten people. 25% of the population now have a house inside a supermarket and greet each other in the morning by shouting over the aisles that separate them from their neighbours.
> 
> However at t the Headless Chicken Plant Based Wine Bar, where the EU flag at half mast casts a permanent shadow, all is not right. Locals glumly sip their craft beer dismayed by the chronic au pair shortage. The decision by the local Council run by the Urbanistas to abolish the working class as it was too hard to define has led them to frantically count their change for any sign of hyperinflation due to wages rising by 50 pence an hour.
> 
> ...


----------



## MrSki (Jul 25, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> The story I linked to isn’t about the Sainsbury’s or Tesco’s wage bill.


No?

From the article you linked to.


> On Friday, the supermarkets Asda, Tesco and Sainsbury’s began asking suppliers for extra payments to cover the costs of raising wages for delivery drivers in a desperate move to offset shortages.


----------



## Spymaster (Jul 25, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> I'm quite excited by this book proposal from Johnny Favourite , the ex-leader of Skaters Against the War and the short lived Skaters Against Feral Youth.  Probably needs a bit more fleshing out and advice from someone on here about the technical issues of computers and portals (providing they don't bore everybody with recommending installing SSD cards )   but I  think it could even attract film rights tbh.



Brilliant!


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 25, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> I'm quite excited by this book proposal from Johnny Favourite , the ex-leader of Skaters Against the War and the short lived Skaters Against Feral Youth.  Probably needs a bit more fleshing out and advice from someone on here about the technical issues of computers and portals (providing they don't bore everybody with recommending installing SSD cards )   but I  think it could even attract film rights tbh.



The chicken plant based wine bar….. classic 😁


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 25, 2021)

MrSki said:


> No?
> 
> From the article you linked to.



You do realise they aren’t employed by Sainsbury’s and Tesco’s right?


----------



## MrSki (Jul 25, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> You do realise they aren’t employed by Sainsbury’s and Tesco’s right?


Are you sure about that?









						HGV Drivers | Tesco Careers
					

We’re looking for HGV Drivers who love and take pride in what they do.




					www.tesco-careers.com
				






> How much does Sainsbury’s pay HGV drivers?​HGV driver at Sainsbury’s
> 
> 
> £13.50–17.57
> ...


----------



## Badgers (Jul 25, 2021)

Nothing to do with Brexit, it is all Covid-19 









						Recruitment firms: ‘EU workers have left and aren’t returning'
					

Warnings include suggestions that 60 per cent of vegetable packers have said they’re leaving or left



					www.business-live.co.uk


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 25, 2021)

Thank you business live, sorry; ... _checks notes_ ... 'business-live.co.uk'


----------



## brogdale (Jul 25, 2021)

What now?


----------



## Badgers (Jul 25, 2021)




----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 25, 2021)

Badgers said:


>




Along with its creeping synergistic relationship to the interests of capital, consprialoonery was always going to become increasingly central to continuity remain teleology. This is a cracker


----------



## Saul Goodman (Jul 25, 2021)

I just read that due to Brexit rules and regs, M&S have dropped half the range of sandwiches they're exporting into Ireland. EXCELLENT! Another Brexit positive. Fucking massive food miles on things like sandwiches is disgraceful and should be outlawed.


----------



## Raheem (Jul 25, 2021)

Saul Goodman said:


> EXCELLENT! Another Brexit positive. Fucking massive food miles on things like sandwiches is disgraceful and should be outlawed.


A bit wordy as a slogan, though. You can see why they dropped it from the side of the bus.


----------



## two sheds (Jul 25, 2021)

probably be brought in from poland now


----------



## bimble (Jul 25, 2021)

Very long and extremely pompous but kind of fascinating is mr giant brain Cummings’s account on his blog of what  Vote Leave did and how come in his opinion they won.

'The office could only do so much. If Boris, Gove, and Gisela had not supported us and picked up the baseball bat marked ‘Turkey/NHS/£350 million’ with five weeks to go, then 650,000 votes might have been lost. .'

'Would we have won without immigration? No. _Would we have won without £350m/NHS? All our research and the close result strongly suggests No._

etc etc . Great stuff.


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Jul 25, 2021)

Went to Sainsburies today and at this time of year it's usually very quiet in general as there's no students in what is an area with a high student population. I've never seen the shelves this empty. The fruit and veg section is completely cleared of produce save a few bits here and there. The rest of the shop doesn't fare much better with huge gaps on the shelves. 

I'm sure someone will be along to tell me that it's all just covid and that pesky app, even though shops had no real supply issues last year (start of pandemic panic buying not withstanding). 

I can't wait for the benefits of Lexit to take hold when our shops will be full of high quality produce all grown, hand picked and delivered by people who resemble the cast of Postman Pat.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 25, 2021)

Marxism . Speechless.


----------



## Smangus (Jul 25, 2021)

I'm down to my last Fray Bentos tinned pie 😔


----------



## Saul Goodman (Jul 25, 2021)

Smangus said:


> I'm down to my last Fray Bentos tinned pie 😔


----------



## MrSki (Jul 25, 2021)

Smangus said:


> I'm down to my last Fray Bentos tinned pie 😔


Came up on a quiz I was watching but never new Fray Bentos is a city in Uruguay.


----------



## Saul Goodman (Jul 25, 2021)

MrSki said:


> Came up on a quiz I was watching but never new Fray Bentos is a city in Uruguay.


I thought it was just shit in a tin.


----------



## glitch hiker (Jul 25, 2021)

Raheem said:


> A bit wordy as a slogan, though. You can see why they dropped it from the side of the bus.


It's not as long as the title and number of the latest Fast And Furious movie, which is also plastered on the side of many buses. 

It also describes the Leave campaign's attitude to the truth


----------



## Smangus (Jul 25, 2021)

Saul Goodman said:


> I thought it was just shit in a tin.



Yeah, but now we're free of that dastardly European entrapment and have thrown off the fetters of red taped, tinned pie regulation, we can transform them into tinny gourmet delights. 

Thank you Brexiteers! 😊


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 25, 2021)

Raheem said:


> A bit wordy as a slogan, though. You can see why they dropped it from the side of the bus.


I prefer "blessed be the hand that dares to wield the regicidal steel that shall redeem a nation's sorrow with a tyrant's blood", the auld homerton social democratic club's slogan


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 25, 2021)

Smangus said:


> I'm down to my last Fray Bentos tinned pie 😔


Actually, I have some sympathy for you. T


----------



## Badgers (Jul 26, 2021)

Sunlit Uplands 👍


----------



## Badgers (Jul 26, 2021)

UK asks EU to put Northern Ireland Brexit checks on hold 'indefinitely'
					

Britain has proposed taking a political approach rather than a legal fix to the Northern Ireland protocol




					inews.co.uk


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 26, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Sunlit Uplands 👍



If he's so keen on signing things without reading them it should be a piece of piss to get him to sign an IOU or blank cheque


----------



## Badgers (Jul 26, 2021)




----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 26, 2021)

Badgers said:


> View attachment 280647


Yes we have no bananas


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 26, 2021)

I'm sure it's coincidental you can't make out the date, the chain, the currency or the country. I mean, it's not as if you'd want to make that clear ... to make your point. It's almost as if ...


----------



## brogdale (Jul 26, 2021)

Oh FFS, if you're gonna hang around at least try to be funny.


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 26, 2021)

They literally have to spell out:  'AT TESCO'. You see, this is a photo taken AT TESCO, that somehow manages to avoid a single reference to TESCO.


----------



## Raheem (Jul 26, 2021)

The prices are in pounds and pence and there's a union jack hanging from the ceiling. So, it's the UK, and almost certainly this year.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jul 26, 2021)

Standing in front of a grocery counter with today's paper to provide proof of life like totally normal person.

im sure the brexit fans wouldn't take the piss if you did that


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 26, 2021)

Raheem said:


> and almost certainly this year.



really, who gives a fuck. It's a random photo from anywhere at any time of the day. Like large supermarkets - as that clearly is - don't have an entire re-stocking night shifts.

You literally have to be an idiot to give that image any credence. And yet here we are, the full U75 Bellingcat. what a clown show.


----------



## Raheem (Jul 26, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> really, who gives a fuck.


Just you I think, you stupid clown.


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 26, 2021)

I think Inspector Bellingcat cares becasue he has carried out a detailed analysis for us all and reported back it's .... _check notes_ ... "almost certainly from this year"

I mean, come on , even Project Fear HQ at The Guardisn would be embarrassed by this garbage.


----------



## brogdale (Jul 26, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> really, who gives a fuck....the full U75 Bellingcat. what a clown show.


You can't entertain or even troll very well; time to fuck off now.


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 26, 2021)

Here he is, Inspector Bellingcat! Almost certainly.


----------



## Raheem (Jul 26, 2021)

If I shift position and say "definitely", will the top of your actual head shoot off?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 26, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> Project Fear/The Guardian's 100,000 shortage appears to have reduced to 60,000 in ... _checks notes_ ... 4 days.
> 
> It's a funny old thing how this has happened time and again over ... _checks notes_ ... 5 years. Never once do Remoaners twig ...





Loose meat said:


> First they came for the ski instructors
> Then they came for the creative tambourine shakers
> 
> Then they came for  the ... _checks notes_ ... lettuces







Loose meat said:


> Certainly impressed by the narrtive combination of post-Brexit lorry queues at Calais and Dover becasue, you know, it's all impossible, and post Brexit shortages of ... _checks notes_ ... drivers.
> 
> We seem to be absent a montage of the two narratives side-by-side ..





Loose meat said:


> There are laws. They're called ... _checks notes_ .. immigration laws. We have those now. Have a stab at why that it. It begins with B and involved a national referendum.





Loose meat said:


> Thank you business live, sorry; ... _checks notes_ ... 'business-live.co.uk'





Loose meat said:


> I think Inspector Bellingcat cares becasue he has carried out a detailed analysis for us all and reported back it's .... _check notes_ ... "almost certainly from this year"
> 
> I mean, come on , even Project Fear HQ at The Guardisn would be embarrassed by this garbage.


Jesus Mary and Joseph aren't you the boring repetitive cunt with your checks notes drivel


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 26, 2021)

Raheem said:


> If I shift position and say "definitely", will the top of your actual head shoot off?


Best have someone else do it, he'd likely miss


----------



## two sheds (Jul 26, 2021)

It does seem to have stopped talking about Likes which is progress of a sort.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 26, 2021)

two sheds said:


> It does seem to have stopped talking about Likes which is progress of a sort.


With a spot of luck it will just stop talking and we'll all be happy


----------



## Raheem (Jul 26, 2021)

At least until we see another picture of a supermarket that's run out of cauliflower.


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 26, 2021)

Any more photos for Inspector Bellingcat to examine for us?

#AlmostCertainly


----------



## Smangus (Jul 26, 2021)

Wondering who the fuck Loose Stools is. 

....checks notes .. .(due to shit memory) 

Oh , a complete trolling cunt. Nevermind.


----------



## Raheem (Jul 27, 2021)

.


----------



## Raheem (Jul 27, 2021)




----------



## Badgers (Jul 27, 2021)

Interesting fhreax...


----------



## brogdale (Jul 27, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Interesting fhreax...



For me, this really is #ProjectFear


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 27, 2021)

It's like they're aren't independent supply chains - for example cash-and-carry, local/corner shops, independent off licenses, etc - who would benefit if this were accurate.

But never mind that, let's begin the day with yet more Brexit catastrophising. After all, we're only into year 6 after the Ref.


----------



## brogdale (Jul 27, 2021)

All those "independent supply chains" that, famously, don't rely on any road transport.

Fuck off fun-sponge clown.


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 27, 2021)

what a cunt. Again. Proper internet angry cunt. Yep, independent supply chains. Not HGV, either. Surely you're not so thick as to not know. What a thick cunt.

Put on a dunce hat and go and stand in the corner with Inspector Bellingcat.


----------



## teqniq (Jul 27, 2021)

Your constant referral to Bellingcat in a derogatory sense leads me to believe that you are amongst your other lovely attributes a war crimes denialist.


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 27, 2021)

LOL. Hitler, and so early! A truly niche message board.


----------



## teqniq (Jul 27, 2021)

Stop making sense.


----------



## brogdale (Jul 27, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> what a cunt. Again. Proper internet angry cunt. Yep, independent supply chains. Not HGV, either. Surely you're not so thick as to not know. What a thick cunt.
> 
> Put on a dunce hat and go and stand in the corner with Inspector Bellingcat.


You're making an absolute arse of yourself; strive for dignity and just go away.


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 27, 2021)

Put on your dunce hat, and be quiet until the break.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 27, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> Put on your dunce hat, and be quiet until the break.


Put on your dunce hat and be quiet


----------



## glitch hiker (Jul 27, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> It's like they're aren't independent supply chains - for example cash-and-carry, local/corner shops, independent off licenses, etc - who would benefit if this were accurate.
> 
> But never mind that, let's begin the day with yet more Brexit catastrophising. After all, we're only into year 6 after the Ref.


We were told food shortages = project fear

There are food shortages.

Whether you take them seriously or not is irrelevant to the claim.


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 27, 2021)

Just looked at BBC and Guardian websites ie. Project Fear HQ, I don't see headlines expressing 'food shortages'. Coud you link us up ..


----------



## Raheem (Jul 27, 2021)




----------



## Badgers (Jul 27, 2021)




----------



## Doctor Carrot (Jul 27, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> It's like they're aren't independent supply chains - for example cash-and-carry, local/corner shops, independent off licenses, etc - who would benefit if this were accurate.
> 
> But never mind that, let's begin the day with yet more Brexit catastrophising. After all, we're only into year 6 after the Ref.


I  work for a corner shop. The cash and carry we use is more or less constantly out of things we need for the same reasons supermarkets are. Before you check your fucking notes again try writing some coherent ones that correspond with reality.


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 27, 2021)

I shop in a corner shop every day and talk to the nice people who run it. So that's your experience and my experience.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 27, 2021)

Badgers said:


>




Fill up the drinks aisle with remainers tears. An endless supply


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 27, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> I shop in a corner shop every day and talk to the nice people who run it. So that's your experience and my experience.


they must think you're one boring shit if you chit-chat to them about the intricacies of their supply chain


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Jul 27, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> I shop in a corner shop every day and talk to the nice people who run it. So that's your experience and my experience.



You pathetic little nob 'ead. Did you lose your notes on not making an arse of yourself?


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Jul 27, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Fill up the drinks aisle with remainers tears. An endless supply



Haha! Yes! We could even change the name of the frozen food aisle to 'whiny snowflake' and replace the world food section with 'world beating British grub.'


----------



## Supine (Jul 27, 2021)

Until tears become alcoholic this beer shortage is serious business. No amount of brexiteer idiocy will get away from that.


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 27, 2021)

More from Project Fear HQ this morning, on the back of ... _checks notes_ ... food shortages >>>

Savour the flavour! Chefs on 20 terrific ways to tickle tired tastebuds​


> Lost your culinary spark after months of lockdown? From carrot-mel to celeriac sorbet, here are simple, surprising secrets to transform your home cooking











						Savour the flavour! Chefs on 20 terrific ways to tickle tired tastebuds
					

Lost your culinary spark after months of lockdown? From carrot-mel to celeriac sorbet, these ideas from Britain’s best chefs will tickle even the most tired taste buds




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Jul 27, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> More from Project Fear HQ this morning, on the back of ... _checks notes_ ... food shortages >>>
> 
> Savour the flavour! Chefs on 20 terrific ways to tickle tired tastebuds​
> 
> ...



Your notes are fucking shit. There's no food shortages, you thick cunt. There's a shortage of drivers to get the food to the shops. You should wear that dunce hat yourself, thicko.


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 27, 2021)

glitch hiker said:


> We were told food shortages = project fear
> 
> There are food shortages.
> 
> Whether you take them seriously or not is irrelevant to the claim.


Yeah but no but yeah .. one of you two is a 'thick cunt', apparently. Do let us know when you work out who it is, and you can go and stand in the corner with Inspector Bellingcat, the other feller, and the other early Hitler feller


----------



## two sheds (Jul 27, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> Yeah but no but yeah .. one of you two is a 'thick cunt', apparently. Do let us know when you work out who it is, and you can go and stand in the corner with Inspector Bellingcat, the other feller, and the other early Hitler feller


One talking about no food shortages at point of supply, the other talking about food shortages in shops. Simple really if you had but half a brain. 

Still don't let that stop your daily Project Hate.


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 27, 2021)

I see what you did there. Very artful.

Just a bit confusing that you make so many Brexit arguments about low wages and EU migration and how the UK needed stricter laws, and yet claim to be part of the Remain gang.


----------



## two sheds (Jul 27, 2021)

Where do I claim to be part of the Remain gang?


----------



## glitch hiker (Jul 27, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> Yeah but no but yeah .. one of you two is a 'thick cunt', apparently. Do let us know when you work out who it is, and you can go and stand in the corner with Inspector Bellingcat, the other feller, and the other early Hitler feller


In what way do you think you've addressed my point.

Brexit has led to food shortages. For me that means spending more and getting less of what I want.

Please tell me which Brexiteer said that would happen


----------



## Yossarian (Jul 27, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> More from Project Fear HQ this morning, on the back of ... _checks notes_ ... food shortages >>>
> 
> Savour the flavour! Chefs on 20 terrific ways to tickle tired tastebuds​
> 
> ...



Spent-coffee steak​Wait a second before you compost all your coffee grounds. Ruth Hansom, the chef at Princess of Shoreditch in London, has an idea


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 27, 2021)

glitch hiker said:


> In what way do you think you've addressed my point.
> 
> Brexit has led to food shortages. For me that means spending more and getting less of what I want.
> 
> Please tell me which Brexiteer said that would happen


pssst, I've already asked you for a link to 'food shortages'.


----------



## two sheds (Jul 27, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> I see what you did there.



Pointed out your lack of critical thought?


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 27, 2021)

If I did that on here, I'd never leave.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 27, 2021)

glitch hiker said:


> In what way do you think you've addressed my point.


do you really think this is about addressing your point?


----------



## Badgers (Jul 27, 2021)

#covidnotbrexit

Every country in Europe has #Covid19.

Shown in green are those countries suffering from empty shelves.


----------



## Raheem (Jul 27, 2021)

TBF, most of those countries don't have quite as much Covid, and they also don't have Boris Johnson.


----------



## two sheds (Jul 27, 2021)

#johnsonnotbrexit


----------



## glitch hiker (Jul 27, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> pssst, I've already asked you for a link to 'food shortages'.


How would you link to it? www.foodshortages.com?

You could try UK facing summer of food shortages due to lack of lorry drivers

Either you can choose to disbelieve the totality of reporting on this issue or you can accept the consequences of brexit are exactly as the people who didn't lie to you .

I don't have photographic evidence for you. I don't carry a camera around and I don't feel obliged to do so because whether or not one brexiteer doesn't believe me doesn't feel compelling. I can tell you, and you can believe/disbelieve, that the local shops are visibly struggling to maintain stock on a considerable amount of stuff such that I have never seen the like. The upshot is that I have to shell out for more expensive alternatives where they are available and, increasingly, they are not.

So you can either engage in good faith discourse or...


----------



## glitch hiker (Jul 27, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> do you really think this is about addressing your point?


I have no problem exposing brexiteer bullshit like this


----------



## Supine (Jul 27, 2021)

I can provide photo evidence!


----------



## Yossarian (Jul 27, 2021)

two sheds said:


> #johnsonnotbrexit



"For our next disaster simulation, we'll combine Johnson, COVID, Brexit ... and let's get some murder hornets in the mix this time."


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Jul 27, 2021)

Supine said:


> I can provide photo evidence!
> 
> View attachment 280723


Don't believe you. That was taken in Uzbekistan in the early 1990s.


----------



## Spymaster (Jul 27, 2021)

Supine said:


> I can provide photo evidence!
> 
> View attachment 280723



You know, searching the supermarket for the 3 feet of empty shelf space in 10,000 and then posting the pic here, isn’t really “evidence”, right?


----------



## Supine (Jul 27, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> You know, searching the supermarket for the 3 feet of empty shelf space in 10,000 and then posting the pic here, isn’t really “evidence”, right?



whole place was in a bad state. I’m not bothered if i’ve convinced anyone tbh.


----------



## Spymaster (Jul 27, 2021)

Supine said:


> whole place was in a bad state. I’m not bothered if i’ve convinced anyone tbh.


What shop was it?


----------



## Supine (Jul 27, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> What shop was it?



spar. around here co-op is also suffering but tesco seems ok.


----------



## glitch hiker (Jul 27, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> Just looked at BBC and Guardian websites ie. Project Fear HQ, I don't see headlines expressing 'food shortages'. Coud you link us up ..


You're using the phrase 'project fear' to imply that your interlocutor is arguing from emotion.

And yet by using this term in lieu of evidence (something you ask of others) you prove that's exactly what you're doing


----------



## Spymaster (Jul 27, 2021)

Supine said:


> spar. around here co-op is also suffering but tesco seems ok.


Whereabouts?


----------



## Supine (Jul 27, 2021)

Guardian link. Took 2 seconds to find.









						UK facing summer of food shortages due to lack of lorry drivers
					

Loss of 100,000 hauliers due to Covid and Brexit will cause food ‘rolling power cuts’, experts warn




					www.google.co.uk


----------



## gosub (Jul 27, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Interesting fhreax...





 How is booze not core goods?



No booze, masked faces....what next sharon law?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 27, 2021)

Supine said:


> Guardian link. Took 2 seconds to find.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


no, where is your spar


----------



## Saul Goodman (Jul 27, 2021)

Supine said:


> I can provide photo evidence!
> 
> View attachment 280723


Aren't they the bread shelves, at the end of the day, when all the bread has sold, just as you'd expect it to?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 27, 2021)

Saul Goodman said:


> Aren't they the bread shelves, at the end of the day, when all the bread has sold, just as you'd expect it to?


good spot


----------



## Saul Goodman (Jul 27, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> good spot


You've gotta admire the obfuscation of the text on the shelf labels, so you can't see it's the bread shelves 🤣


----------



## Spymaster (Jul 27, 2021)

Waitrose shelves packed to the gunwales just now.


Cherries from Greece and grapes from Spain, getting through just fine.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 27, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Waitrose shelves packed to the gunwales just now.
> 
> View attachment 280735
> Cherries from Greece and grapes from Spain, getting through just fine.


you should get your fruit and veg from a market where they're going to be fresher, cheaper, and without all that ludicrous plastic


----------



## Yossarian (Jul 27, 2021)

I wouldn't keep those cherries hanging around for long.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 27, 2021)

Supine said:


> Guardian link. Took 2 seconds to find.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Very surprised at The Guardian normally a level headed paper with no political bias


----------



## Spymaster (Jul 27, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> I wouldn't keep those cherries hanging around for long.



No worries there. They're already washed and stoned, and will be going into a crumble in about 20 minutes.


----------



## Saul Goodman (Jul 27, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> No worries there. They're already washed and stoned, and will be going into a crumble in about 20 minutes.


Sounds just like me!


----------



## gosub (Jul 27, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> No worries there. They're already washed and stoned, and will be going into a crumble in about 20 minutes.
> 
> View attachment 280741



Did you know crumble was a war time invention to make things go further under rationing?


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 27, 2021)

gosub said:


> Did you know crumble was a war time invention to make things go further under rationing?


How did wartime England get on with petis pois shortages?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 27, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> How did wartime England get on with petis pois shortages?


back then they were known as small peas and no one liked them, the beans were left to grow a bit more than they are now


----------



## Aladdin (Jul 27, 2021)

Supine said:


> spar. around here co-op is also suffering but tesco seems ok.


Did you check under the tree ?


----------



## gosub (Jul 27, 2021)




----------



## The39thStep (Jul 27, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> back then they were known as small peas and no one liked them, the beans were left to grow a bit more than they are now


Be far better if we reverted to the name small peas


----------



## Elpenor (Jul 27, 2021)

I can report that Waitrose successfully delivered me the food I ordered with only 3 substitutes:

Prince Charles’s posh twat Kale for regular kale
2 small packs of spinach for one big of spinach
Ginger beer and apple juice cans of pop instead of sugar free ginger beer - this is a tragedy as it’s not very nice

In light of the pea based shortage I can confirm that my frozen peas got through. Never been a fan of petit pois.


----------



## two sheds (Jul 27, 2021)

> back then they were known as small peas and no one liked them, the beans were left to grow a bit more than they are now



yeh what third columnist eats the pods?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jul 27, 2021)

No Pepperamis here in Crete. Except the ones we smuggled in right under the noses of those fascist EU mother fuckers who say ney to that kind of thing.


----------



## planetgeli (Jul 27, 2021)

I offer no comment whether Covid or Brexit or what but...there are shortages, significant shortages. Denying them is just making some people look ridiculous. I've just done my online shop and the numbers of 'product currently unavailable' are through the roof. Bit pissed off about the spring onions as it happens. But yeah. Wasn't a thing when I started online shopping a couple of years back. It's peaking at the moment. Exponential growth of unavailable items.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 27, 2021)

Mange tout, Petis Pois . Are there other vegetables of ours that have been Frenchified


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 27, 2021)

planetgeli said:


> I offer no comment whether Covid or Brexit or what but...there are shortages, significant shortages. Denying them is just making some people look ridiculous. I've just done my online shop and the numbers of 'product currently unavailable' are through the roof. Bit pissed off about the spring onions as it happens. But yeah. Wasn't a thing when I started online shopping a couple of years back. It's peaking at the moment. Exponential growth of unavailable items.


Leeks are quite a good substitute for spring onions although they've got a more nutty taste , or try shallots  or yellow or red  onions


----------



## planetgeli (Jul 27, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> shallots



Bit French.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 27, 2021)

planetgeli said:


> Bit French.


Originally Asian then came to Europe via East Med. Obviously the French claimed they invented it.


----------



## Spymaster (Jul 27, 2021)

Supine said:


> spar. around here co-op is also suffering but tesco seems ok.





Spymaster said:


> Waitrose shelves packed to the gunwales just now.
> 
> View attachment 280735
> Cherries from Greece and grapes from Spain, getting through just fine.





Elpenor said:


> I can report that Waitrose successfully delivered me the food I ordered with only 3 substitutes:
> 
> Prince Charles’s posh twat Kale for regular kale
> 2 small packs of spinach for one big of spinach
> ...



Interesting that Waitrose, Tesco, and Sainsbury seem to be immune from empty shelves and other calamitous effects of Brexit, whilst Co-op and Spar are fucked. 

One might almost deduce ....


----------



## two sheds (Jul 27, 2021)

that remainers don't eat cornflakes?


----------



## planetgeli (Jul 27, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Interesting that Waitrose, Tesco, and Sainsbury seem to be immune from empty shelves


They're not. My online order is Tesco.


----------



## Spymaster (Jul 27, 2021)

planetgeli said:


> They're not. My online order is Tesco.



They probably know it's you though. They're trying to piss you off.


----------



## planetgeli (Jul 27, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> They probably know it's you though. They're trying to piss you off.



I think this is probably right. I've suspected as much myself.


----------



## Supine (Jul 27, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> One might almost deduce ....



The suspense is killing me (not really)


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 27, 2021)

This just the start ,  huge potential for union organisation as well. The article also explains how one firm is also looking to recruit woman drivers.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 27, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> This just the start ,  huge potential for union organisation as well. The article also explains how one firm is also looking to recruit woman drivers.




Starmer and the unions should be calling for a government/Haulier bosses jointly funded fast track apprenticeship scheme for lorry drivers. Fully funded, targeted at young people in areas of high unemployment, a guaranteed job, free tests, union negotiated terms and conditions and a massive expansion of HGV testing. Similar programmes should also be called for in other areas of the economy where labour shortages are predictable. Labour could even publish their own version of it and say 'if elected, we'd do this'....get the bosses to agree in principle etc etc


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 27, 2021)

Sounds great but problems arise very quickly when employers try to recruit women into 'mostly men' work forces; bus driving, for example, is a classic example.

Women want to work very particular shift hours - around school times - which pushes men into working (unsocial) hours they don't want to work, which causes friction at home for them (because their partners and children want them home). Also, HGV and part-time seem uncomfortable bed fellows given the distances many drive.

It becomes a never-ending source of friction in the workplace, esp. when some women are actually child-minding for extra cash, or don't even have children.

((( women )))

Anyway, that all a bit too working class for U75. Best you all get back to slaving over your web content.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 27, 2021)

And if anyone wants any more examples about how hours and working condition were redesigned, favourably for the employer and unfavourably for the worker ,  around an unending  supply of cheap, temporary  and flexible labour  read this :





__





						Subscribe to read | Financial Times
					

News, analysis and comment from the Financial Times, the worldʼs leading global business publication




					www.ft.com


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 27, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> And if anyone wants any more examples about how hours and working condition were redesigned, favourably for the employer and unfavourably for the worker ,  around an unending  supply of cheap, temporary  and flexible labour  read this :
> 
> 
> 
> ...



the key account to follow on Twitter for this at the FT is the very good Sarah O'Connor : https://twitter.com/sarahoconnor_


----------



## teqniq (Jul 27, 2021)

Haven't seen much in the way of empty shelves round here but a large probable cause would appear to be brexit according to this:









						Brexit must share blame for empty supermarket shelves
					

Supermarket shortages are being blamed on the 'pingdemic' - but Brexit must take its share of responsibility after 25,000 lorry drivers...




					www.theneweuropean.co.uk


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 27, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> And if anyone wants any more examples about how hours and working condition were redesigned, favourably for the employer and unfavourably for the worker ,  around an unending  supply of cheap, temporary  and flexible labour  read this :
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The Tory 'leveling up' agenda is, in part, a recognition of this (as well as about restoring legitimacy, post-neo-liberal economics - a double movement by capital - and brazen opportunism). Debating with remainers about all of this stuff is impossible however. They are stuck in 1992 in political economy terms and are drifting toward a position that demands the free movement of (exploited) labour on capitals terms.


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 27, 2021)

Employers were very quick and adept at specifically RE-designing jobs to target economic migrants; 12 on, 12 off, min wage, compulsory extra at short notice. Why employ 2 waiters when you can get 3 for the same overhead.

I'm still pissed off how they did exactly that to our very excellent spin instructors at the lido.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jul 27, 2021)

Supine said:


> I can provide photo evidence!
> 
> View attachment 280723



You need to be standing in front of it, pointing, with a copy of todays paper with the date circled.

Otherwise this is bollocks.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jul 27, 2021)

teqniq said:


> Haven't seen much in the way of empty shelves round here but a large probable cause would appear to be brexit according to this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




ffs, "Brexit must be responsible" says the neweuropean.


----------



## teqniq (Jul 27, 2021)

That's not exactly what it says though is it?


----------



## Dystopiary (Jul 27, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> And if anyone wants any more examples about how hours and working condition were redesigned, favourably for the employer and unfavourably for the worker ,  around an unending  supply of cheap, temporary  and flexible labour  read this :
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Will read when I can suss out how to bypass the paywall (I know there are links on here) and am not ludicrously tired. 

I was (and still am) against the UK leaving the EU, I'm not middle class, and can really see a lot of your and Smokeandsteam's points about Brexit and the EU.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jul 27, 2021)

teqniq said:


> That's not exactly what it says though is it?




Who cares?

I really don't either way any more, but this endless whinging from entrenched positions is tiresome and deserves nothing more than mockery.

Brexit has happened, it will never be reversed. End of.


----------



## Saul Goodman (Jul 27, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Who cares?
> 
> I really don't either way any more, but this endless whinging from entrenched positions is tiresome and deserves nothing more than mockery.
> 
> Brexit has happened, it will never be reversed. End of.


It might get reversed some day but its here now, and whining about it will fix nothing.


----------



## Supine (Jul 27, 2021)

Saul Goodman said:


> It might get reversed some day but its here now, and whining about it will fix nothing.



Not to say the situation can’t be discussed and if anyone is sick of the subject perhaps this is the wrong thread to be reading.


----------



## two sheds (Jul 27, 2021)

> It might get reversed some day but its here now, and whining about it will fix nothing.



Could say the same about tories being in power. I see most of it as "look how the tories have fucked this up ..." on both sides.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jul 27, 2021)

Saul Goodman said:


> It might get reversed some day but its here now, and whining about it will fix nothing.




I really don't think it will. The EU in anything remotely resembling its current form would not have us back without conditions that would never be approved here, they would want us on Greek terms. It's over and a new chapter awaits, let's go.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 27, 2021)

Dystopiary 
If you get stuck I’ll cut and paste it


----------



## Dystopiary (Jul 27, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Dystopiary
> If you get stuck I’ll cut and paste it


Thank you.


----------



## andysays (Jul 27, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Could say the same about tories being in power. I see most of it as "look how the tories have fucked this up ..." on both sides.


That seems like a reasonable position to take. 

Unfortunately there are a few die-hard Remainers here who are still taking every opportunity to blame those who voted to Leave five years ago rather than those who have fucked up implementing it.


----------



## andysays (Jul 27, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Dystopiary
> If you get stuck I’ll cut and paste it


Even if Dystopiary isn't stuck, I'd appreciate a c&p job


----------



## Yossarian (Jul 27, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Who cares?
> 
> I really don't either way any more, but this endless whinging from entrenched positions is tiresome and deserves nothing more than mockery.
> 
> Brexit has happened, it will never be reversed. End of.



Yep, Brexit is a done deal, signed, sealed, and delivered by the Conservative Party, "Remain" and "Lexit" are now things of the past.

But there should still be room for discussion of if and how badly the Tories are fucking things up, especially if they're going to be arguing at the next election that their Brexit policies should take all the credit for pay rises etc. when workers in EU countries and elsewhere might be coming out of COVID with bigger pay rises etc. than their British counterparts.


----------



## ska invita (Jul 27, 2021)

andysays said:


> Unfortunately there are a few die-hard Remainers here who are still taking every opportunity to blame those who voted to Leave five years ago rather than those who have fucked up implementing it.


out of interest, how would you have liked to see Brexit implemented differently, or rather what are the key things the Tories have done you disagree with in regards its implementation, and what should they have done instead?


----------



## fucthest8 (Jul 27, 2021)

For the record, this thread can fuck off as well
When is the Brexit forum launching? I've never "ignored" anything on Urban but that's getting it.


----------



## gosub (Jul 27, 2021)

ska invita said:


> out of interest, how would you have liked to see Brexit implemented differently, or rather what are the key things the Tories have done you disagree with in regards its implementation, and what should they have done instead?


Consultation ahead of triggering article 50.  National coalition government after that first election that reduced majority to nothing.  Personally favoured staying in single market but moving clear of the EU's ever closer union


----------



## MrSki (Jul 27, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> This just the start ,  huge potential for union organisation as well. The article also explains how one firm is also looking to recruit woman drivers.



Who was it on here who claimed Tesco didn't employ HGV drivers? 

Come on own up.


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 27, 2021)

fucthest8 said:


> For the record, this thread can fuck off as well
> When is the Brexit forum launching? I've never "ignored" anything on Urban but that's getting it.



It's a Brexit country. 5 years and longer. 2 general elections and a referendum. Over half a decade ago.

Remainers are approaching that point where you'll end up in a central American jungle clearing with a large vat of elixir, and a charismatic cult leader. You're way out there with flat earth folks. Ever further fringe and weird, in an ever-diminishing bubble: the chosen people. The true believers.


----------



## Ax^ (Jul 27, 2021)

at least for remainers it not as Mad as  defending the GB News Channel...


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 27, 2021)

You run a long to the BBC like a good little boy.


----------



## brogdale (Jul 27, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> It's a Brexit country. 5 years and longer. 2 general elections and a referendum. Over half a decade ago.
> 
> Remainers are approaching that point where you'll end up in a central American jungle clearing with a large vat of elixir, and a charismatic cult leader. You're way out there with flat earth folks. Ever further fringe and weird, in an ever-diminishing bubble: the chosen people. The true believers.


Kool-aid irony.


----------



## two sheds (Jul 27, 2021)

aww it's posting more and more it loves us really


----------



## glitch hiker (Jul 27, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> It's a Brexit country. 5 years and longer. 2 general elections and a referendum. Over half a decade ago.
> 
> Remainers are approaching that point where you'll end up in a central American jungle clearing with a large vat of elixir, and a charismatic cult leader. You're way out there with flat earth folks. Ever further fringe and weird, in an ever-diminishing bubble: the chosen people. The true believers.


This is just alphabetti spaghetti

We don't have Brexit. None of the things you believe you voted for are happening nor will they. Currently we aren't upholding our agreements under the deal we negotiated and your messiah won an election on. The whole thing is an unworkable mess won on a campaign of lies.

There are no remainers. There are just people who don't like the fact a group of lying cunts are now in power having fooled gullible twats into believing obvious lies


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 27, 2021)

MrSki said:


> Who was it on here who claimed Tesco didn't employ HGV drivers?
> 
> Come on own up.


Not me pal don’t know enough about it


----------



## glitch hiker (Jul 27, 2021)

And now we have a government that wants slave labour via chain gangs, and to up the ante on the long debunked stop and search policy. All because Brexit has enabled these wankcunts


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 27, 2021)

glitch hiker said:


> And now we have a government that wants slave labour via chain gangs, and to up the ante on the long debunked stop and search policy. All because Brexit has enabled these wankcunts


The chain gangs is just a bit of Blair’s community service in high viz jackets revisited. All talk no trousers


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 27, 2021)

MrSki said:


> Who was it on here who claimed Tesco didn't employ HGV drivers?
> 
> Come on own up.



Nice try. But nobody has claimed that. I have however stated that their drivers are not part of the planned strike day by Hauliers. You really don’t know anything about the food supply chain do you? Come on, own up.


----------



## MrSki (Jul 28, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Nice try. But nobody has claimed that. I have however stated that their drivers are not part of the planned strike day by Hauliers. You really don’t know anything about the food supply chain do you? Come on, own up.


Sorry I must have mistaken your reply.



Smokeandsteam said:


> You do realise they aren’t employed by Sainsbury’s and Tesco’s right?


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 28, 2021)

glitch hiker said:


> There are no remainers. There are just people who don't like the fact a group of lying cunts are now in power having fooled gullible twats into believing obvious lies


 reference clown photos of bread shelves: look at these photos of the moon with the shadow at the wrong angle!!!


----------



## redsquirrel (Jul 28, 2021)

Dystopiary said:


> Will read when I can suss out how to bypass the paywall (I know there are links on here) and am not ludicrously tired.
> 
> I was (and still am) against the UK leaving the EU, I'm not middle class, and can really see a lot of your and Smokeandsteam's points about Brexit and the EU.


Open a private/incognito (or whatever it is called) browser window, go to google and type in the title of the article - this usually gets around the FT paywall for me.

Or you can sign up for 3 months access for £1 (if a new reader). Well worth it, it is easily the best UK paper.


----------



## andysays (Jul 28, 2021)

ska invita said:


> out of interest, how would you have liked to see Brexit implemented differently, or rather what are the key things the Tories have done you disagree with in regards its implementation, and what should they have done instead?


I'm not sure that my 'fantasy Brexit' has much relevance to where we are now, but one thing I would have done was to make it quite clear that anyone from the EU who could demonstrate they had been living in the UK for a period of one year before a certain date would be welcome to remain living and working here, and would be able to claim British citizenship to enable them to do this if they wished.


----------



## andysays (Jul 28, 2021)

ska invita said:


> out of interest, how would you have liked to see Brexit implemented differently, or rather what are the key things the Tories have done you disagree with in regards its implementation, and what should they have done instead?


I'm not sure that my 'fantasy Brexit' has much relevance to where we are now, but one thing I would have done was to make it quite clear that anyone from the EU who could demonstrate they had been living in the UK for a period of one year before a certain date would be welcome to remain living and working here, and would be able to claim British citizenship to enable them to do this if they wished.


----------



## glitch hiker (Jul 28, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> reference clown photos of bread shelves: look at these photos of the moon with the shadow at the wrong angle!!!


In what way does this bizarre word salad address what I said?


----------



## glitch hiker (Jul 28, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> The chain gangs is just a bit of Blair’s community service in high viz jackets revisited. All talk no trousers


Almost certainly for spots but the stuff about stop and search is more concerning

Don't forget who is currently home secretary!


----------



## Spymaster (Jul 28, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> you should get your fruit and veg from a market where they're going to be fresher, cheaper, and without all that ludicrous plastic



I'm actually quite diligent about buying from independents where possible but don't necessarily agree about the freshness. The turnover through supermarkets usually means fresher produce in my experience, but that's not always necessarily a consideration if you're not going to be storing stuff too long. Agree with you on the price and packaging and I also like to support smaller traders but sometimes the convenience of being able to buy everything you need under one roof, a few meters from where you've parked the car, just wins. 

Those grapes were pretty naff though. The cherry crumble was ace.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jul 28, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> I'm actually quite diligent about buying from independents where possible but don't necessarily agree about the freshness. The turnover through supermarkets usually means fresher produce in my experience, but that's not always necessarily a consideration if you're not going to be storing stuff too long. Agree with you on the price and packaging and I also like to support smaller traders but sometimes the convenience of being able to buy everything you need under one roof, a few meters from where you've parked the car, just wins.



I find supermarkets consistently bad at soft fruit, independents are much better where available.

Ripen at home kiwis, apricots or whatever all tend to be solid bricks from supermarkets.


----------



## Spymaster (Jul 28, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> I find supermarkets consistently bad at soft fruit, independents are much better where available.
> 
> Ripen at home kiwis, apricots or whatever all tend to be solid bricks from supermarkets.



I think it's swings and roundabouts. A local grocer sells cherries too but they're outside the shop in an open crate all day and punters serve themselves by sticking their hands in and filling a bag. Given the times we're in and the recent heatwave, that's put me off a bit, and whilst he's usually very good, I've seen a fair bit of soft/damaged fruit there too, which you rarely get in supermarkets.


----------



## two sheds (Jul 28, 2021)

What shortages? I just had a delivery from Morrisons and they seem to have given me a several-pound joint of beef free


----------



## dessiato (Jul 28, 2021)

I’m with Spymaster on the fruit and veg here. I much prefer to shop at small independent stores, even for bread, meat and fish.

Given the times in which we live, I don’t want to be selecting my food from outside shops, and where god knows how many others might have handled it, although our frutería will not let you in until you‘ve used the hand sanitiser and you are wearing a mask. They also have fruit in boxes outside the shop, next to a busy road. I, therefore, buy in supermarkets where it’s wrapped and then take it home where it is washed before eating.

The amount of over packaging in plastic bothers me. I want to reduce it but how? I want the security of knowing that people haven’t handled it, sneezed on it etc too.

We move in about a month. I’ll then be able to fish for my dinner, and buy from an excellent local market. But the doubts about hygiene will remain.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 28, 2021)

dessiato said:


> I’m with Spymaster on the fruit and veg here. I much prefer to shop at small independent stores, even for bread, meat and fish.
> 
> Given the times in which we live, I don’t want to be selecting my food from outside shops, and where god knows how many others might have handled it, although our frutería will not let you in until you‘ve used the hand sanitiser and you are wearing a mask. They also have fruit in boxes outside the shop, next to a busy road. I, therefore, buy in supermarkets where it’s wrapped and then take it home where it is washed before eating.
> 
> ...


If you buy at eg Hackney's Ridley road market it's my experience that only the costermonger will handle the comestibles


----------



## Spymaster (Jul 28, 2021)

two sheds said:


> What shortages? I just had a delivery from Morrisons and they seem to have given me a several-pound joint of beef free


#benefitsofbrexit


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 28, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> #benefotsofbrexit


Benefots


----------



## Spymaster (Jul 28, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> If you buy at eg Hackney's Ridley road market it's my experience that only the costermonger will handle the comestibles



Most of our local independents are of the typical Arab supermarket variety with a butcher at the back of the shop, grocery shelves in the middle, and the fruit and veg out front. It’s all serve yourself.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 28, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Most of our local independents are of the typical Arab supermarket variety with a butcher at the back of the shop, grocery shelves in the middle, and the fruit and veg out front. It’s all serve yourself.


I thought you predominantly bought at the Knightsbridge independents


----------



## Spymaster (Jul 28, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> I thought you predominantly bought at the Knightsbridge independents


You mean Harrods?

I stopped shopping there when they put that silly fucking bus/cycle track down Park Lane.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 28, 2021)

Dystopiary said:


> Will read when I can suss out how to bypass the paywall (I know there are links on here) and am not ludicrously tired.
> 
> I was (and still am) against the UK leaving the EU, I'm not middle class, and can really see a lot of your and Smokeandsteam's points about Brexit and the EU.


andysays 



> Last week, the deadline passed for EU citizens living in the UK to apply for the right to stay, prompting concern about what will happen to people who didn’t apply in time. But the more extraordinary story is about the numbers who did apply. By March, there had been 5.3m applications from almost 5m individuals for “settled” or “pre-settled” status (some people applied twice). By all accounts, there has been a last-minute rush since then. Yet in 2019, the Home Office estimated the total pool of people eligible to apply for the scheme was only between 3.5m and 4.1m. Applications by people from Romania and Bulgaria had reached about 918,000 and 284,000 respectively by March, while the latest official estimates of their resident populations were 370,000 and 122,000 respectively. Some applications will be from eligible family members or from people who have left the UK. Even so, it seems clear the UK’s population and migration estimates have been “wholly inadequate since at least the mid-2010s”, as economist Jonathan Portes has written. It is ironic that we are only learning just how big a deal European migration was for the UK at the moment we are confronted by life without it. For an insight into how the era of EU free movement transformed some corners of the economy, you could do worse than to study the factories that process our food. This sector, heavily reliant on workers from the EU, was always going to face a reckoning, since the government’s new post-Brexit immigration regime has put a stop to most low-paid migration. But the pandemic has hastened the crunch by prompting many EU workers with settled status to go home (no one knows how many). In meat processing, where EU workers account for more than 60 per cent of staff, employers are complaining of acute labour shortages. Employers often lament that Britons just don’t apply for these jobs. But a look at current job adverts offers an insight into why. Twelve-hour shifts in food factories are common, often in patterns of “four on, four off”, with workers expected to do a mixture of day and night shifts. One for a bakery worker states: “You will work days or nights including weekends for 12 hours [sic] shift as follows: 6am to 6pm; 6pm to 6am.” Another warns applicants for its 12-hour night shifts (paid £9.12 per hour) that “you will be working on your feet for the duration of the shift”. Many state: “You will be required to be flexible to meet the demands of the business.”  It is hard to see how you could manage a job with long and variable hours like this if you had to arrange childcare in advance, or indeed had any responsibilities outside work. Even if you could, there are less demanding jobs with steadier shifts that pay a similar wage. Yet the food factory jobs have been manageable for a certain group of migrant workers who came without dependants and lived in shared accommodation. Nick Allen, chief executive of the British Meat Processors Association, says that is why the jobs developed this way. “If we’re honest, the working patterns have evolved around having non-UK labour, their prime reason is to stay for three years, earn a lot of money and go home again.” He says the location of workplaces has changed too, from smaller abattoirs spread around the country to a much-reduced group of large ones in rural areas (because it’s easier to get the animals there). “The whole structure of the industry has altered” over the decades, Allen says. “It’s ended up in a particular pattern and it’s probably got to change.” Allen says pay for new hires is already up: “I’m seeing starting-level jobs advertised now at £22,000, whereas two years ago it would have been £18,000”. He is talking to members about changing their working patterns, but warns it won’t be easy. Eamon O’Hearn, a national officer at the GMB union, says he has “some sympathy” for the sector’s employers, since they are low-margin, high-volume businesses, relentlessly squeezed by the powerful supermarkets. Meat in the UK is among the cheapest in western Europe. “I think we can’t have a debate or review of what work-life balance means in our communities without addressing the market power of the retailers,” he says. It is disingenuous for employers to say that Britons won’t ever do these jobs. Yet it is also naive to believe their problems would melt away overnight if they just raised pay and made less profit. In this sector, the era of free movement affected everything from the rhythm, security and location of work to the prices we have grown used to in the shops. Workers from the EU shaped the UK profoundly. If they don’t come back, learning to live without them will reshape us yet again.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 28, 2021)

Evidence of continuity remain slippage into consprialoonery #2

I mean the idea of a local Sainsbury’s store manager becoming part of the government ‘propaganda machine’. This stuff is unhinged


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 28, 2021)

Postage/ delivery was the same as the pork scratchings but no customs charges


----------



## dessiato (Jul 28, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> If you buy at eg Hackney's Ridley road market it's my experience that only the costermonger will handle the comestibles


I won’t shop there.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 28, 2021)

dessiato said:


> I won’t shop there.


A pity. You'd like it. And it's a safe environment


----------



## gosub (Jul 28, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Evidence of continuity remain slippage into consprialoonery #2
> 
> I mean the idea of a local Sainsbury’s store manager becoming part of the government ‘propaganda machine’. This stuff is unhinged



Now?

Blair's change in drinking laws was for the benefit of Labour donor Lord Sainsbury


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 28, 2021)

gosub said:


> Now?
> 
> Blair's change in drinking laws was for the benefit of Labour donor Lord Sainsbury


Sounds like he is a massive drinker


----------



## xenon (Jul 28, 2021)

People have been touching and probably sneezing on loose fruit and vege ever since, well shops sold it.

Just rinse it off when you get home. Heat or stomach acid will kill the rest


----------



## dessiato (Jul 28, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> A pity. You'd like it. And it's a safe environment


I live in Spain, it’s too far to travel.


----------



## andysays (Jul 28, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> andysays


Thanks. Will read that properly when I get home from work.


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 28, 2021)

glitch hiker said:


> This is just alphabetti spaghetti
> 
> We don't have Brexit. None of the things you believe you voted for are happening nor will they. Currently we aren't upholding our agreements under the deal we negotiated and your messiah won an election on. The whole thing is an unworkable mess won on a campaign of lies.
> 
> There are no remainers. There are just people who don't like the fact a group of lying cunts are now in power having fooled gullible twats into believing obvious lies



not only that, but they fooled them in a Referendum and 2 subsequent General Elections - ending up with a Brexit landslide 86-seat majority. And they still think this is Brexit, they still believe democrary won  - what foolish gullible twats!

Do enjoy the Panamanian jungle clearing.


----------



## brogdale (Jul 28, 2021)

It was Guyana.


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 28, 2021)

Do let us know when you buy your tickets.


----------



## redsquirrel (Jul 28, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Evidence of continuity remain slippage into consprialoonery #2
> 
> I mean the idea of a local Sainsbury’s store manager becoming part of the government ‘propaganda machine’. This stuff is unhinged




#FPBA = Follow Back Pro-? Asia? America?

ah it might be 'alliance' as in _progressive_ alliance


----------



## brogdale (Jul 28, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> Do let us know when you buy your tickets.


"...us..."

Heuristic.


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 28, 2021)

that's easy for you to say


----------



## brogdale (Jul 28, 2021)

Yeah, best for you to find somewhere that your tedious schtick might be appreciated and you'd be able to refer to "us", eh?
Bye.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 28, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> that's easy for you to say


Her-ist-ick

There you go 

Now it's easy for you to say too


----------



## klang (Jul 28, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> A pity. You'd like it. And it's a safe environment


great for innards and offal too!


----------



## ska invita (Jul 28, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Her-ist-ick


Stop calling people t'ick


----------



## glitch hiker (Jul 28, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> Do let us know when you buy your tickets.


What the fuck are you talking about? Utter clown


----------



## glitch hiker (Jul 28, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Evidence of continuity remain slippage into consprialoonery #2
> 
> I mean the idea of a local Sainsbury’s store manager becoming part of the government ‘propaganda machine’. This stuff is unhinged



I don't see any evidence that assumption is being made by the person you're quoting. There is nothing unhinged about that tweet. I've no idea who the tweeter is or waht they tweet about otherwise. All they are saying is give peas a chance


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 28, 2021)

glitch hiker said:


> There is nothing unhinged about that tweet.



That’s telling


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 28, 2021)

Trying to use silly cropped images of empty sheves and then selling them like it's Bellingcat was a real eye-opener; becoming a cult, way out there with the fake moon landing brigade.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 28, 2021)

Evidence of continuity remain slippage into consprialoonery #3

More evidence of the great government, media, Sainsbury’s store manager. Where are Bernstein and Woodward when you need them?


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 28, 2021)

Where's the Remain poster boy Femi these days?


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 28, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> Trying to use silly cropped images of empty sheves and then selling them like it's Bellingcat was a real eye-opener; becoming a cult, way out there with the fake moon landing brigade.


The irony is that many remain supporters are often the type who are quickest to mock conspiraloons, keen to sneer at nostalgia and pompously dismiss accounts where there is no evidence bar heresay. Except when they engage in all of the above on an industrial scale that is…


----------



## Yossarian (Jul 28, 2021)

Not sure what the randoms on Twitter being quoted are on about, tbh - are the more Faragist papers not reporting on the HGV driver shortage?


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 28, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> Not sure what the randoms on Twitter being quoted are on about, tbh - are the more Faragist papers not reporting on the HGV driver shortage?



Both tweets have thousands of ‘likes’. Revealing an emerging cognitive dissonance.


----------



## brogdale (Jul 28, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Both tweets have thousands of ‘likes’. Revealing an emerging cognitive dissonance.


It's not really cognitive dissonance, is it?
There are some empty shelves and empty shelves were predicted by 'project fear'.
It makes complete sense to those that favoured retaining UK membership of the supra state; those aren't inconsistent thoughts.


----------



## Ax^ (Jul 28, 2021)

Jesus we have really started to scrap the barrel on this thread


here what some random person has said on twitter

see it's  all project fear brexit is a success

trust in de piffel


----------



## Supine (Jul 28, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> Trying to use silly cropped images of empty sheves and then selling them like it's Bellingcat was a real eye-opener; becoming a cult, way out there with the fake moon landing brigade.



You don’t actually think posting an image from my local supermarket was to convince an internet no-mark like you, do you? I don’t give a flying monkey what you think.


----------



## Raheem (Jul 28, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> The irony is that many remain supporters are often the type who are quickest to mock conspiraloons, keen to sneer at nostalgia and pompously dismiss accounts where there is no evidence bar heresay. Except when they engage in all of the above on an industrial scale that is…


I think what you're doing is seeing loons when all you're looking at is someone who's wrong about something that is actually debatable in any case. Not unusual, and not even weird since they're trying to guess at things happening in another country. Not really worth your time, and a waste of anyone else's.


----------



## Chilli.s (Jul 28, 2021)

Elpenor said:


> Never been a fan of petit pois.


I live with a pea connoisseur (child) and often have a problem with cheaper peas not being petit enough


----------



## Yossarian (Jul 28, 2021)

There also seems to be something of a disconnect happening with people who say "Hurrah for Brexit" about supermarkets trying to solve a driver shortage by offering sign-on bonuses etc., but rejecting the idea that the same driver shortage might be causing supply issues in some areas.

There'd be much less of an issue if there had been a halfway competent government handling Brexit instead of the fucking clowns that are running things - there was a shortage of drivers even before Brexit, you'd think they might have identified it as an area where there could be problems and encouraged more training etc. five years ago instead of waiting until the problem was causing major issues.


----------



## mojo pixy (Jul 28, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Evidence of continuity remain slippage into consprialoonery #2
> 
> I mean the idea of a local Sainsbury’s store manager becoming part of the government ‘propaganda machine’. This stuff is unhinged




Then there's the whole "it was the Russians wot done it" conspiraloonery that we're still seeing here and there.


----------



## Raheem (Jul 28, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> There also seems to be something of a disconnect happening with people who say "Hurrah for Brexit" about supermarkets trying to solve a driver shortage by offering sign-on bonuses etc., but rejecting the idea that the same driver shortage might be causing supply issues in some areas.


Debating club dishonesty is what that is, rather than simple disconnect.
.


----------



## Chilli.s (Jul 28, 2021)

That one trick pony, content free posts from a content free head


----------



## glitch hiker (Jul 28, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Evidence of continuity remain slippage into consprialoonery #3
> 
> More evidence of the great government, media, Sainsbury’s store manager. Where are Bernstein and Woodward when you need them?



what does this have to do with anything? It's twitter ffs!


----------



## andysays (Jul 28, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> andysays


Thank again for posting that interesting article. Couple of bits stand out for me



> the pandemic has hastened the crunch by prompting many EU workers with settled status to go home (no one knows how many)



In other words, many EU workers who had already applied for and been granted granted settled status have left not because of Brexit, but  because of the Covid pandemic.



> Nick Allen, chief executive of the British Meat Processors Association, says that is why the jobs developed this way. “If we’re honest, the working patterns have evolved around having non-UK labour, their prime reason is to stay for three years, earn a lot of money and go home again.”





> He says the location of workplaces has changed too, from smaller abattoirs spread around the country to a much-reduced group of large ones in rural areas (because it’s easier to get the animals there). “The whole structure of the industry has altered” over the decades, Allen says. “It’s ended up in a particular pattern and it’s probably got to change.”



This illustrates how a dependency on cheaper labour from poorer EU countries has not just depressed wages, but also significantly effected the whole structure of one particular industry, making it less able to cope when cheaper EU workers no longer want to work here. I'm sure that similar changes have occurred in other industries.

Also interesting for those concerned about animal cruelty that, according to the CEO of the British Meat Processors Association, EU freedom of movement has inspired the growth of the new super abattoirs, with all the negative consequences for animal welfare they involve.


----------



## glitch hiker (Jul 28, 2021)

brogdale said:


> It's not really cognitive dissonance, is it?
> There are some empty shelves and empty shelves were predicted by 'project fear'.
> It makes complete sense to those that favoured retaining UK membership of the supra state; those aren't inconsistent thoughts.


There are also supply chain issues caused by brexit


----------



## glitch hiker (Jul 28, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> That’s telling


of what?


----------



## Raheem (Jul 28, 2021)

glitch hiker said:


> of what?


That would be telling.


----------



## brogdale (Jul 28, 2021)

andysays said:


> Thank again for posting that interesting article. Couple of bits stand out for me
> 
> 
> 
> ...


On that first point, I'm wondering if the 5 year rule meant that some EU nationals waited to get their Settled Status sorted before exercising their right to 'go home' for up to 5 years; keeping their options open as it were?


> Citizens with 'settled status' may spend up to exactly five continuous years outside the United Kingdom without impacting their immigration status, and will lose their 'settled status' if they spend any continuous time of five years and a day or longer outside the UK.


----------



## andysays (Jul 28, 2021)

glitch hiker said:


> There are also supply chain issues caused by brexit


I think you need to unpick this a bit.

What are the supply chain issues, and how, specifically, have they been caused by Brexit?

Not saying you're wrong, just that as it stands your 'A caused by B' assertion isn't very illuminating or helpful


----------



## andysays (Jul 28, 2021)

brogdale said:


> On that first point, I'm wondering if the 5 year rule meant that some EU nationals waited to get their Settled Status sorted before exercising their right to 'go home' for up to 5 years; keeping their options open as it were?


Maybe some of them did; maybe some of them would have gone home if Brexit hadn't happened at all.

There's no reason why they shouldn't keep their options open, I'm sure most of us would do the same in similar circumstances.

But it still appears that significant numbers of EU workers have left Britain not because they had to because of Brexit, but because they chose for whatever reason to do so.


----------



## Raheem (Jul 28, 2021)

andysays said:


> Maybe some of them did; maybe some of them would have gone home if Brexit hadn't happened at all.
> 
> There's no reason why they shouldn't keep their options open, I'm sure most of us would do the same in similar circumstances.
> 
> But it still appears that significant numbers of EU workers have left Britain not because they had to because of Brexit, but because they chose for whatever reason to do so.


AFAIK, no-one has had to leave because of Brexit. But many chose to leave because of Brexit, which was happening pre-pandemic. Many may have also left because of Covid, and many of those will not be able to return, as they might have in the past, because of Brexit.


----------



## brogdale (Jul 28, 2021)

andysays said:


> Maybe some of them did; maybe some of them would have gone home if Brexit hadn't happened at all.
> 
> There's no reason why they shouldn't keep their options open, I'm sure most of us would do the same in similar circumstances.
> 
> But it still appears that significant numbers of EU workers have left Britain not because they had to because of Brexit, but because they chose for whatever reason to do so.


Really difficult to conclude about motivations without some serious fieldwork, tbh.
I agree that it's quite rational for those affected to keep their option of UK settled status open, but we have to remember that all of this was made necessary by the withdrawal from supra state membership.


----------



## glitch hiker (Jul 28, 2021)

andysays said:


> I think you need to unpick this a bit.
> 
> What are the supply chain issues, and how, specifically, have they been caused by Brexit?
> 
> Not saying you're wrong, just that as it stands your 'A caused by B' assertion isn't very illuminating or helpful


As is my understanding: supply chain issues are due to a shortage of drivers. Consequently food, and possibly other things (i dont' know haven't done any other kind of shopping recently), is not appearing on shelves, hence the pics floating around on social media.

Brexit is causal because the drivers have left the UK. Our government _could_ change things so that some/all are incentivised and allowed to return, but given the government we have, put in place because of Brexit, that isn't happening. It may yet do so, but I have no faith in Priti Patel not being a complete shitbag. So it's directly and indirectly causal.

If you can demonstrate otherwise then please do so.


----------



## glitch hiker (Jul 28, 2021)

Raheem said:


> That would be telling.


of what?


----------



## andysays (Jul 28, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Really difficult to conclude about motivations without some serious fieldwork, tbh.
> I agree that it's quite rational for those affected to keep their option of UK settled status open, but we have to remember that all of this was made necessary by the withdrawal from supra state membership.


I agree it's more or less impossible to say anything conclusive about motivation - there will presumably be a whole range of motivations, which is why "because of Brexit" is so simplistic as to be pointless.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 28, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Really difficult to conclude about motivations without some serious fieldwork, tbh.
> I agree that it's quite rational for those affected to keep their option of UK settled status open, but we have to remember that all of this was made necessary by the withdrawal from supra state membership.


Rationality much overrated


----------



## andysays (Jul 28, 2021)

glitch hiker said:


> As is my understanding: supply chain issues are due to a shortage of drivers. Consequently food, and possibly other things (i dont' know haven't done any other kind of shopping recently), is not appearing on shelves, hence the pics floating around on social media.
> 
> Brexit is causal because the drivers have left the UK. Our government _could_ change things so that some/all are incentivised and allowed to return, but given the government we have, put in place because of Brexit, that isn't happening. It may yet do so, but I have no faith in Priti Patel not being a complete shitbag. So it's directly and indirectly causal.
> 
> If you can demonstrate otherwise then please do so.


Many/most of the drivers who have left could have applied for and been granted settled status. It appears that some (we don't know how many) have actually been granted settled status, but have since chosen to leave.

So your apparent notion that the drivers have been forced to leave because they weren't allowed to stay is a bit simplistic.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 28, 2021)

andysays said:


> Many/most of the drivers who have left could have applied for and been granted settled status. It appears that some (we don't know how many) have actually been granted settled status, but have since chosen to leave.
> 
> So your apparent notion that the drivers have been forced to leave because they weren't allowed to stay is a bit simplistic.



We've also already had a discussion on here about how many drivers we are talking about. IIRC it was 3% of the overall number employed, and, as you say, some of this will have chosen to stay.


----------



## brogdale (Jul 28, 2021)

andysays said:


> I agree it's more or less impossible to say anything conclusive about motivation - there will presumably be a whole range of motivations, which is why "because of Brexit" is so simplistic as to be pointless.


Yes, except that 'because of Brexit' a whole new set of decisions had to made by those EU nationals resident in the UK without dual nationality or indefinite leave to enter/remain.


----------



## glitch hiker (Jul 28, 2021)

andysays said:


> Many/most of the drivers who have left could have applied for and been granted settled status. It appears that some (we don't know how many) have actually been granted settled status, but have since chosen to leave.
> 
> So your apparent notion that the drivers have been forced to leave because they weren't allowed to stay is a bit simplistic.


do you have a citation for that?


----------



## andysays (Jul 28, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> We've also already had a discussion on here about how many drivers we are talking about. IIRC it was 3% of the overall number employed, and, as you say, some of this will have chosen to stay.


Can you expand on this a bit?

Are you saying that 3% of the total number of drivers previously working in the UK, have now returned to their EU home countries, or something different?


----------



## Raheem (Jul 28, 2021)

andysays said:


> Can you expand on this a bit?
> 
> Are you saying that 3% of the total number of drivers previously working in the UK, have now returned to their EU home countries, or something different?


2-3% of all UK-based hgv drivers were EU citizens and left because of Brexit. About twice that many were EU citizens and have not left.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 28, 2021)

Raheem said:


> I think what you're doing is seeing loons when all you're looking at is someone who's wrong about something that is actually debatable in any case. Not unusual, and not even weird since they're trying to guess at things happening in another country. Not really worth your time, and a waste of anyone else's.


Reminds me of the ‘boys will be boys’ defence in Better Call Saul


----------



## Raheem (Jul 28, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Reminds me of the ‘boys will be boys’ defence in Better Call Saul


Except I haven't defended anything. I simply pointed out that there's a difference between being wrong and being a loon.


----------



## andysays (Jul 28, 2021)

glitch hiker said:


> do you have a citation for that?


Read the article from the FT quoted upthread by The39thStep which talks about unknown numbers of workers who have been granted settled status subsequently choosing to return to their home countries.

It's talking specifically about the meat processing industry, but there's no reason to suppose it hasn't happened in other industries too.


----------



## andysays (Jul 28, 2021)

Raheem said:


> 2-3% of all UK-based hgv drivers were EU citizens and left because of Brexit. About twice that many were EU citizens and have not left.


OK, except that unless you've asked them, you don't really know why they've left.

Some of them will have left specifically because of Brexit, some of them because of Covid, some of them for personal reasons unconnected with either.


----------



## bimble (Jul 28, 2021)

Ffs this thread didn’t think it could get worse but it’s just going from strength to strength.
 People going on like all the stuff in our shops is brought to us only by lorry drivers who live here in the uk.
 It’s really not. 
Drivers who live in Europe are choosing to not come here, because delivering to the UK is a shit  job because you don’t get paid for sitting at customs borders.


----------



## Raheem (Jul 28, 2021)

andysays said:


> OK, except that unless you've asked them, you don't really know why they've left.
> 
> Some of them will have left specifically because of Brexit, some of them because of Covid, some of them for personal reasons unconnected with either.


I don't think it really matters why they left. They are said to have left because of Brexit, and I believe the pattern over time suggests this.


----------



## pogofish (Jul 28, 2021)

Saul Goodman said:


> I just read that due to Brexit rules and regs, M&S have dropped half the range of sandwiches they're exporting into Ireland. EXCELLENT! Another Brexit positive. Fucking massive food miles on things like sandwiches is disgraceful and should be outlawed.



Apparently they have the same problem in France, where their sandwiches have become, somewhat inexplicably, quite popular - How will the poor French cope?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 28, 2021)

pogofish said:


> Apparently they have the same problem in France, where their sandwiches have become, somewhat inexplicably, quite popular - How will the poor French cope?


Poorly


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 28, 2021)

bimble said:


> Ffs this thread didn’t think it could get worse but it’s just going from strength to strength.
> People going on like all the stuff in our shops is brought to us only by lorry drivers who live here in the uk.
> It’s really not.
> Drivers who live in Europe are choosing to not come here, because delivering to the UK is a shit  job because you don’t get paid for sitting at customs borders.


So what are you doing to remedy this wages injustice?


----------



## Raheem (Jul 28, 2021)

The poor French will be largely unaffected. It's those on higher incomes we need to feel sorry for.


----------



## Saul Goodman (Jul 28, 2021)

pogofish said:


> Apparently they have the same problem in France, where their sandwiches have become, somewhat inexplicably, quite popular - How will the poor French cope?


I guess they'll have to go back to their crispy, crunchy, lovely fresh breads and cheeses. Life will be so hard without soggy sandwiches from a packet.


----------



## Raheem (Jul 28, 2021)

Marks and Spencers apparently has 21 small branches in France, only two of which are outside Paris.


----------



## andysays (Jul 28, 2021)

Raheem said:


> I don't think it really matters why they left. They are said to have left because of Brexit, and I believe they mostly left prior to the pandemic becoming a factor.


I think in some respects it does matter why they left.

If the haulage industry (or any other industry) in Britain is significantly dependent on workers from elsewhere (and appears from the figures you mentioned above that between 6 and 9% of lorry drivers in the UK were from elsewhere in the EU), that industry is always going to be vulnerable to many of those workers deciding to return to their home countries.

Part of that will just be turnover of individual workers deciding they'd like to return home, some may be caused by global events like Covid. A significant though probably unknowable amount of that turnover would have happened without Brexit.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 28, 2021)

Raheem said:


> Marks and Spencers apparently has 21 small branches in France, only two of which are outside Paris.


There is an m&s in valletta


----------



## Raheem (Jul 28, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> There is an m&s in valletta


You're thinking of Missouri.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 28, 2021)

Raheem said:


> You're thinking of Missouri.


----------



## glitch hiker (Jul 28, 2021)

andysays said:


> Read the article from the FT quoted upthread by The39thStep which talks about unknown numbers of workers who have been granted settled status subsequently choosing to return to their home countries.
> 
> It's talking specifically about the meat processing industry, but there's no reason to suppose it hasn't happened in other industries too.


Ok so the article you refer to is here Subscribe to read | Financial Times
I coudln't read that post upthread because it's a giant wall of text and my eyesisght struggles so I needed to find the original.

The article says it doesn't know how many have returned home for non-Brexit (ie covid) reasons. It is a sector entirely shaped by migrant labour and the fact that it was easily provided while we were in the EU.

So I'm not seeing how Brexit isn't causal.

EDIT: the link has been paywalled. That's bullshit, when I found it was accessible. Never mind


----------



## Dystopiary (Jul 28, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> andysays


Thank you very much. Will read when I can, hopefully this evening.


----------



## Raheem (Jul 28, 2021)

andysays said:


> I think in some respects it does matter why they left.
> 
> If the haulage industry (or any other industry) in Britain is significantly dependent on workers from elsewhere (and appears from the figures you mentioned above that between 6 and 9% of lorry drivers in the UK were from elsewhere in the EU), that industry is always going to be vulnerable to many of those workers deciding to return to their home countries.
> 
> Part of that will just be turnover of individual workers deciding they'd like to return home, some may be caused by global events like Covid. A significant though probably unknowable amount of that turnover would have happened without Brexit.


I think the idea is that there was an exodus of hgv drivers focussed on the last quarter of 2020, the timing of which suggests a link to Brexit rather than Covid. There's no survey of the drivers, and of course some might have been planning to leave for any number of reasons. But I think it's a plausible and likely narrative, and not one that it's really worth spending time being sceptical about, because it seems really clear that it is not the cause of current problems in the sector (even though it might have made things slightly less manageable).


----------



## bimble (Jul 28, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> So what are you doing to remedy this wages injustice?


Emigrating seems the best thing I can do to help, that way nobody has to sit at customs for hours to bring me my cheese.


----------



## andysays (Jul 28, 2021)

Raheem said:


> I think the idea is that there was an exodus of hgv drivers focussed on the last quarter of 2020, the timing of which suggests a link to Brexit rather than Covid. There's no survey of the drivers, and of course some might have been planning to leave for any number of reasons. But I think it's a plausible and likely narrative, and not one that it's really worth spending time being sceptical about, because it seems really clear that it is not the cause of current problems in the sector (even though it might have made things slightly less manageable).


OK, fair enough.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 28, 2021)

bimble said:


> Emigrating seems the best thing I can do to help, that way nobody has to sit at customs for hours to bring me my cheese.


You should try some UK cheese you might not have seen eg singleton's parlick which is available from eg Sainsbury's


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 28, 2021)

glitch hiker said:


> Ok so the article you refer to is here Subscribe to read | Financial Times
> I coudln't read that post upthread because it's a giant wall of text and my eyesisght struggles so I needed to find the original.
> 
> The article says it doesn't know how many have returned home for non-Brexit (ie covid) reasons. It is a sector entirely shaped by migrant labour and the fact that it was easily provided while we were in the EU.
> ...



It's diff to think some people could be this thick, unintentionally.

The issue on here began - and remains - a poverty wage issue. Of course there are fewer drivers, the endless supply of SE EU drivers willing to undercut to £10 an hour and less was the reality for a decade.  Replacig those with Brits was hampered by 30,000 fewer HGV tests during the pandemic, followed by a pindemic. Owners tried to convert that into 'we must have our cheap labour back' narrative, which the Guardian readily bought.

What we have had recently - on the BBC, in the Guardian, is a narrative controlled by the owners. Again. The issue is poverty wages, food banks and the willingness of employers to blame eveyone else for the fact they do not want to have to pay more than poverty wages. So their solution is to let the SE EU drivers return. Of course it is.

The issue was poverty wages, the issue is poverty wages and the issue will remain poverty wages until foodbanks close and a wage that allows dignity in the workplace returns.

Meanwhile ... lets get back to those moon walk photos.


----------



## brogdale (Jul 28, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> It's diff to think some people could be this thick, unintentionally.
> 
> The issue on here began - and remains - a poverty wage issue. Of course there are fewer drivers, the endless supply of SE EU drivers willing to undercut to £10 an hour and less was the reality for a decade.  Replacig those with Brits was hampered by 30,000 fewer HGV tests during the pandemic.
> 
> ...


Fuck off.


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 28, 2021)

Hit the bone didn't I. LOL. Truth hurts: 1 Referendum and 2 General Elections. The Remainer cult heads to the jungle ...


----------



## glitch hiker (Jul 28, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> It's diff to think some people could be this thick, unintentionally.
> 
> The issue on here began - and remains - a poverty wage issue. Of course there are fewer drivers, the endless supply of SE EU drivers willing to undercut to £10 an hour and less was the reality for a decade.  Replacig those with Brits was hampered by 30,000 fewer HGV tests during the pandemic, followed by a pindemic. Owners tried to convert that into 'we must have our cheap labour back' narrative, which the Guardian readily bought.
> 
> ...


Didn't even read the article. You utter fucking troll. Off you cunt, into the oblivion. I tried to engage, waste of time. Bye bye now


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 28, 2021)

Bye! Enjoy the jungle!


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 28, 2021)

glitch hiker said:


> Didn't even read the article. You utter fucking troll. Off you cunt, into the oblivion. I tried to engage, waste of time. Bye bye now


This only makes sense when you have the big ban button. But you don't. You're just putting him on ignore. A much lesser punishment for lm


----------



## Ax^ (Jul 28, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> It's diff to think some people could be this thick, unintentionally.
> 
> The issue on here began - and remains - a poverty wage issue. Of course there are fewer drivers, the endless supply of SE EU drivers willing to undercut to £10 an hour and less was the reality for a decade.  Replacig those with Brits was hampered by 30,000 fewer HGV tests during the pandemic, followed by a pindemic. Owners tried to convert that into 'we must have our cheap labour back' narrative, which the Guardian readily bought.
> 
> ...


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 28, 2021)

Oh yes, it's all about punishment. Let's cancel the truth. Oh and democracy.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 28, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> It's diff to think some people could be this thick, unintentionally.
> 
> The issue on here began - and remains - a poverty wage issue. Of course there are fewer drivers, the endless supply of SE EU drivers willing to undercut to £10 an hour and less was the reality for a decade.  Replacig those with Brits was hampered by 30,000 fewer HGV tests during the pandemic, followed by a pindemic. Owners tried to convert that into 'we must have our cheap labour back' narrative, which the Guardian readily bought.
> 
> ...


But what are you going to do about poverty wages?


----------



## brogdale (Jul 28, 2021)

The froth-flecked frenzy of the pre-ban swan-song.


----------



## two sheds (Jul 28, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> But what are you going to do about poverty wages?


1. Send all the foreigners home 2.use the laws we have now which are perfectly good enough even though they don't work 3. utopia


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 28, 2021)

I'll think you'll find the correct answer is to read one artcile behind a paywall and 5 years of knowledge and experience evaporates, cos a self-important clown on the internet said.


----------



## brogdale (Jul 28, 2021)

_a self-important clown on the internet, _eh?


----------



## Raheem (Jul 28, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> I'll think you'll find the correct answer is to read one artcile behind a paywall and 5 years of knowledge and experience evaporates, cos a self-important clown on the internet said.


Bet you dream of self-importance.


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 28, 2021)

He's back: Inspector Bellingcat - our special correspondent from the 'almost certain' internet people.


----------



## Supine (Jul 28, 2021)

Raheem said:


> Bet you dream of self-importance.



Just after having angry wanks over pictures of farage


----------



## eatmorecheese (Jul 28, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> He's back: Inspector Bellingcat - our special correspondent from the 'almost certain' internet people.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Jul 28, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> He's back: Inspector Bellingcat - our special correspondent from the 'almost certain' internet people.


I thought you were off. You said bye about 40 minutes ago. You haven't quite got the hang of exiting an online exchange.


----------



## gosub (Jul 28, 2021)

Raheem said:


> Marks and Spencers apparently has 21 small branches in France, only two of which are outside Paris.


And the sandwiches have become popular?   reeks of British ex-pat.  seemlessly integrating themselves into localities like a native for 500 years


----------



## Raheem (Jul 28, 2021)

gosub said:


> And the sandwiches have become popular?   reeks of British ex-pat.  seemlessly integrating themselves into localities like a native for 500 years


They're in every airport in Paris, I think. Not really much of a thing in France.


----------



## two sheds (Jul 28, 2021)

Raheem said:


> They're in every airport in Paris, I think. Not really much of a thing in France.


Ha! Shows what you know. They even have their own french word for it: "le sandwich"


----------



## Raheem (Jul 28, 2021)

I once went into a cafe in France called Le Sandwicherie and asked for a sandwich. The guy behind the counter laughed. They didn't do food. It was a well rough place.


----------



## Chilli.s (Jul 28, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> andysays





andysays said:


> Thank again for posting that interesting article. Couple of bits stand out for me
> 
> 
> 
> ...


And the lack of knowledge of how many EU workers were here and went home is astounding.  The implication being that the employers didn't follow regular record keeping, or taxation. Inland revenue too inept


----------



## editor (Jul 28, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> Hit the bone didn't I. LOL. Truth hurts: 1 Referendum and 2 General Elections. The Remainer cult heads to the jungle ...


Can you stop being a twat, please?


----------



## andysays (Jul 28, 2021)

Chilli.s said:


> And the lack of knowledge of how many EU workers were here and went home is astounding.  The implication being that the employers didn't follow regular record keeping, or taxation. Inland revenue too inept


Something along these lines has come up before, on another thread I think.

There seemed to be a bit of uncertainty about whether it's employers or the state who are/were responsible for keeping track of how many EU nationals were in the country, working or otherwise.


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 28, 2021)

editor said:


> Can you stop being a twat, please?



You've got a dozen people being abusive to me and you want to try and quieten me. Tell you what feller, Fuck off.


----------



## Maltin (Jul 28, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> You've got a dozen people being abusive to me and you want to try and quieten me. Tell you what feller, Fuck off.


Might be a good time to check your notes.


----------



## Spymaster (Jul 28, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> You've got a dozen people being abusive to me and you want to try and quieten me. Tell you what feller, Fuck off.



Lol! You're going to get banned now. I think you should get a vpn and reregister at some point though and sneak back in. This was quite a laugh.


----------



## Chilli.s (Jul 28, 2021)

Only a dozen?  Trouble with numbers too


----------



## Ax^ (Jul 28, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> You've got a dozen people being abusive to me and you want to try and quieten me. Tell you what feller, Fuck off.




*waves at Loose meat"

Fuck off Marty2


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 28, 2021)

editor said:


> Can you stop being a twat, please?


you might as well ask the tide not to come in or the moon to halt in the sky


----------



## Supine (Jul 28, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> *waves at Loose meat"
> 
> Fuck off Marty2



Different style. This one is a more angry troll. Even less interesting!!!


----------



## Ax^ (Jul 28, 2021)

thats why he is marty2

if we only keeping him around to generate content the name fits


its why the last one lasted over a year


----------



## Supine (Jul 28, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> thats why he is marty2
> 
> if we only keeping him around to generate content the name fits
> 
> ...



I think this one will blow a gasket well before the year is up


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 28, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> thats why he is marty2
> 
> if we only keeping him around to generate content the name fits
> 
> ...


Let's hope we never get marty2.1


----------



## Ax^ (Jul 28, 2021)

the real marty is seperate from this lovely fella


----------



## brogdale (Jul 29, 2021)

has it been cunted off yet?


----------



## krtek a houby (Jul 29, 2021)

Raheem said:


> Bet you dream of self-importance.


Self-impotence


----------



## brogdale (Jul 29, 2021)

On a brighter note..._despite Brexit, _me Bishop's Fingers turned up in the home delivery today!


----------



## two sheds (Jul 29, 2021)

Morrisons are out of quavers  I've decided I'm agin this Brexit m'larky.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 29, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Morrisons are out of quavers  I've decided I'm agin this Brexit m'larky.


never mind that, there's none of those nice san pellegrino fizzy fruit drinks in the waitrose i went to to get my dinner  

had to get a cawston rhubarb instead


----------



## two sheds (Jul 29, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> never mind that, there's none of those nice san pellegrino fizzy fruit drinks in the waitrose i went to to get my dinner
> 
> had to get a cawston rhubarb instead


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 29, 2021)

Has the nationwide shortage of petit pois abated?


----------



## Ax^ (Jul 29, 2021)

Petit Pois none of this french marlkey since we left the the EU

they are Called British Fancy Pea 







*shakes flag at the sky


----------



## Badgers (Jul 29, 2021)

#covidnotbrexit


----------



## Spymaster (Jul 29, 2021)

Badgers said:


> #covidnotbrexit



Errr. Have you read the article there? 

It’s a spoof.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jul 29, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> Petit Pois none of this french marlkey since we left the the EU
> 
> they are Called British Fancy Pea
> 
> ...


Loving the quintessential British penguin


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 29, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> Loving the quintessential British penguin


Penguin from the Welsh for white head


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 29, 2021)

and did those feet  in ancient times ......


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jul 29, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> and did those feet  in ancient times ......
> 
> View attachment 281097




Flag of the United Kingdom, water from Britain, what about the diagonal red lines on that flag?


----------



## Ax^ (Jul 29, 2021)

and just incase you not to sure about those pesky independancy wanting  scots


----------



## krtek a houby (Jul 29, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> and just incase you not to sure about those pesky independancy wanting  scots



Cultural appropriation. 


The cunts.


----------



## Ax^ (Jul 29, 2021)

they have form


----------



## krtek a houby (Jul 29, 2021)

Hold me back, lads etc


----------



## Yossarian (Jul 29, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> Petit Pois none of this french marlkey since we left the the EU
> 
> they are Called British Fancy Pea
> 
> ...



"from our British grower's"


----------



## steeplejack (Jul 29, 2021)

My favoured brand of sparkling water has been out of stock for weeks and I am absolutely seething. Have already written to my MP & MSP telling them to _do something_

No Plymouth Gin either which is a far bigger problem.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 29, 2021)

steeplejack said:


> My favoured brand of sparkling water has been out of stock for weeks and I am absolutely seething. Have already written to my MP & MSP telling them to _do something_
> 
> No Plymouth Gin either which is a far bigger problem.


first world problems>>>>


----------



## steeplejack (Jul 29, 2021)

Fuck, did you think that was serious?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 29, 2021)

steeplejack said:


> Fuck, did you think that was serious?


Not sure you've grasped the importance attached to fwp


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 29, 2021)

I was talking / reminiscing to a mate of mine in the U.K. about Saturday mornings before the supermarkets took over and opened all hours . Used to be queues outside the butchers from 8 onwards to get the best bits of meat , same with bakers for bread , fishmongers for fish and the grocers for fruit and veg . If you hadn’t done your shopping by 3 in the afternoon you just made do with what they had left as nothing was open Sundays . 
Used to the paper sale 10 o’clock for an hour , quick pint , do the shopping and back in the pub for a pint . Pick some horses out , watch the racing in the pub and then totter off home at 3 when the pub closed.


----------



## Mezzer (Jul 29, 2021)

We've heard of Farage's tirades against the RNLI saving asylum seekers in the channel, but the backdrop to this is the following Brexit fallout:

_An EU law called Dublin III allowed asylum seekers to be transferred back to the first member state they were proven to have entered.
However, the UK is no longer part of this arrangement as it has now left the European Union._

How ironic, after playing a part in stopping free movement within the EU.


----------



## Jessiedog (Jul 29, 2021)

Brexit?

It's all just a bunch of dark-money-driven, Randist, libertarian, deregulatory-inspired, revisionist bullshit.

Everything else is fluff.

William Rees Mogg, et al, in 1993.

The Kochs, the Elliots, the Mercers, the Austrian schoolists - the 55 Tufton Street lunatics. Cambridge Analytica and spin-offs.

The deregulation of data and finance - and setting up "free cities" for the wealthy is all that matters.









						Boris Johnson’s phony sausage war
					

The UK has a long history of picking pointless fights with Brussels.




					www.politico.eu
				




Sausages are a smokescreen and everyone other than the very wealthy are merely collateral damage.

And then climate change.

Happy days.

Woof


----------



## two sheds (Jul 29, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> I was talking / reminiscing to a mate of mine in the U.K. about Saturday mornings before the supermarkets took over and opened all hours . Used to be queues outside the butchers from 8 onwards to get the best bits of meat , same with bakers for bread , fishmongers for fish and the grocers for fruit and veg . If you hadn’t done your shopping by 3 in the afternoon you just made do with what they had left as nothing was open Sundays .
> Used to the paper sale 10 o’clock for an hour , quick pint , do the shopping and back in the pub for a pint . Pick some horses out , watch the racing in the pub and then totter off home at 3 when the pub closed.


It all changed after the war though


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 29, 2021)

two sheds said:


> It all changed after the war though


The Iraq war


----------



## ska invita (Jul 29, 2021)

Jessiedog said:


> The deregulation of data and finance - and setting up "free cities" for the wealthy is all that matters.


You've been away too long, a true patriot cheers on this investment in British workers


----------



## Jessiedog (Jul 29, 2021)

ska invita said:


> You've been away too long, a true patriot cheers on this investment in British workers



Sarcasm, I hope.

All "workers" are being fucked.

And Patriotism is a mental illness.

Be nice to each other peeps.

G'night.

Woof


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jul 29, 2021)

Count Cuckula said:


> I thought you were off. You said bye about 40 minutes ago. You haven't quite got the hang of exiting an online exchange.



People this fond of leaving don’t actually want to leave because then you’d have to stop talking about them.


----------



## ska invita (Jul 29, 2021)

Jessiedog said:


> Sarcasm, I hope.


Yes sarcasm. 
Hope lies bleeding


----------



## discokermit (Jul 29, 2021)

Jessiedog said:


> Sarcasm, I hope.
> 
> All "workers" are being fucked.


check out pay rates for plumbers. and welders. i expect waggon drivers rates will be going up as well.


----------



## yield (Jul 29, 2021)

Jessiedog said:


> Brexit?
> 
> It's all just a bunch of dark-money-driven, Randist, libertarian, deregulatory-inspired, revisionist bullshit.
> 
> ...


There's been a massive rise of nationalism and the far right across the EU. I'm sure you know about the falling average living standards and rising inequality - especially in Greece. 

The EU is, like the WTO, from its founding, "a project of deregulation and redistribution of wealth to the wealthy"









						OpenLux : the secrets of Luxembourg, a tax haven at the heart of Europe
					

Multinationals, billionaires, artists, sportsmen, criminals : an investigation by Le Monde reveals for the first time exhaustively what the Grand Duchy’s financial centre conceals, thanks to its tax advantages.




					www.lemonde.fr
				




Globalists: The End of Empire and the Birth of Neoliberalism by Quinn Slobodian (a europhile) is good if dry on this. Hayek, Mises and others, and their reaction to the collapse of the Austro-Hungarian Empire.

Climate change we're fucked.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jul 29, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> they have form



They've been letting the pigs go a bit then?


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Jul 30, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> I was talking / reminiscing to a mate of mine in the U.K. about Saturday mornings before the supermarkets took over and opened all hours . Used to be queues outside the butchers from 8 onwards to get the best bits of meat , same with bakers for bread , fishmongers for fish and the grocers for fruit and veg . If you hadn’t done your shopping by 3 in the afternoon you just made do with what they had left as nothing was open Sundays .
> Used to the paper sale 10 o’clock for an hour , quick pint , do the shopping and back in the pub for a pint . Pick some horses out , watch the racing in the pub and then totter off home at 3 when the pub closed.


People enthusiastically voted for the removal of rights because they miss standing in line for things on a Saturday morning, drinking warm piss in a nicotine stained pub and betting on what horse can run the fastest? 

Christ, I understand why Brexit happened on a pay and conditions basis (ignoring the highly predictable fact the same wankers who punted Brexit are now badly implementing it on that front) but getting all misty eyed for queues outside the butchers? Nah, I'll never understand it but then again I'm an aging millennial snowflake so what do I know?


----------



## Badgers (Jul 30, 2021)




----------



## Supine (Jul 30, 2021)

Tbf french supermarkets have always been better than uk


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 30, 2021)

Badgers said:


>




#FBPE #FBPA #FBPPR #3.5%


----------



## brogdale (Jul 30, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> #FBPE #FBPA #FBPPR #3.5%


Some people are losers; get over it.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 30, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> #FBPE #FBPA #FBPPR #3.5%



Have you seen his bio? .

Tim Walker has worked for The Observer, the Daily Mail, the Daily Telegraph. the Daily Mirror, The European and The New European. He stood as a parliamentary candidate for the Lib Dems in Canterbury in the 2019 general election, before controversially standing down and falling behind his Labour opponent.

Sounds exactly like the sort of person we should be listening to


----------



## andysays (Jul 30, 2021)

Doctor Carrot said:


> People enthusiastically voted for the removal of rights because they miss standing in line for things on a Saturday morning, drinking warm piss in a nicotine stained pub and betting on what horse can run the fastest?
> 
> Christ, I understand why Brexit happened on a pay and conditions basis (ignoring the highly predictable fact the same wankers who punted Brexit are now badly implementing it on that front) but getting all misty eyed for queues outside the butchers? Nah, I'll never understand it but then again I'm an aging millennial snowflake so what do I know?


Nostalgia's not what it used to be


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 30, 2021)

Doctor Carrot said:


> People enthusiastically voted for the removal of rights because they miss standing in line for things on a Saturday morning, drinking warm piss in a nicotine stained pub and betting on what horse can run the fastest?



That’s a really interesting hot take. What would be both interesting and extremely valuable would be some fieldwork to test your hypothesis out.

Why not pick a working class area near to you (we can help you find one if you are struggling to locate one) and find a place where they gather to drink piss, gamble (most of them are probably on benefits as well) and try to get the best food they can with their money? Set out your views and then report back to us on the debates you’ll inevitably get into about them.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 30, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Some people are losers; get over it.


#SPAL-GOI


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 30, 2021)

#Marxist Henchman


----------



## Yossarian (Jul 30, 2021)

Doctor Carrot said:


> People enthusiastically voted for the removal of rights because they miss standing in line for things on a Saturday morning, drinking warm piss in a nicotine stained pub and betting on what horse can run the fastest?



I don't think the Leave campaign explicitly promised to get rid of supermarkets and restore the shopping conditions of the 1970s, tbf.

Personally, I'd much prefer visiting several small shops then having a few pints and watching the races to going to the supermarket, though there would likely be some strain on my marriage after the 50th time I came home pissed in the afternoon and realised I'd left the meat I'd bought five hours earlier in the pub.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 30, 2021)

Doctor Carrot said:


> People enthusiastically voted for the removal of rights because they miss standing in line for things on a Saturday morning, drinking warm piss in a nicotine stained pub and betting on what horse can run the fastest?
> 
> Christ, I understand why Brexit happened on a pay and conditions basis (ignoring the highly predictable fact the same wankers who punted Brexit are now badly implementing it on that front) but getting all misty eyed for queues outside the butchers? Nah, I'll never understand it but then again I'm an aging millennial snowflake so what do I know?


The first step to wisdom is accepting that you know nothing


----------



## sleaterkinney (Jul 30, 2021)

Speaking about supply chain issues, we haven't started checking goods yet:


----------



## Badgers (Jul 30, 2021)




----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 30, 2021)

Badgers said:


>



Another crank. Soviet News….

What an absolute rabble continuity remain has become. A collection point for shit politics and idiots. As it drifts into the peripheral fringe it was inevitable that it would happen.


----------



## Badgers (Jul 30, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Another crank. Soviet News….
> 
> What an absolute rabble continuity remain has become. A collection point for shit politics and idiots. As it drifts into the peripheral fringe it was inevitable that it would happen.


Fuck off


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 30, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Fuck off



A step up from your usual practise of posting tweets from bellends with no commentary or context. Congratulations.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 30, 2021)

Badgers said:


>




The replies pretty much sum it up


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 30, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Another crank. Soviet News….
> 
> What an absolute rabble continuity remain has become. A collection point for shit politics and idiots. As it drifts into the peripheral fringe it was inevitable that it would happen.


People in peripheral fringes shouldn't start throwing stones


----------



## Badgers (Jul 30, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> The replies pretty much sum it up



No. I was wrong to post it as Brexit is going really well. That ^ poster on ignore was right to call me out and insult me. 

#worldbeating


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Jul 30, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> That’s a really interesting hot take. What would be both interesting and extremely valuable would be some fieldwork to test your hypothesis out.
> 
> Why not pick a working class area near to you (we can help you find one if you are struggling to locate one) and find a place where they gather to drink piss, gamble (most of them are probably on benefits as well) and try to get the best food they can with their money? Set out your views and then report back to us on the debates you’ll inevitably get into about them.


Seems you completely failed to read the post I was responding to. If you had bothered to read it you would see why I said what I said.

It's so fucking boring having bellends like you thinking they speak for the entire working class and assume the entire working class voted leave.  I work in a shop, claim benefits and live in shit rented accommodation. Just because I don't wank on about working class stereotypes from the middle of the 20th century it doesn't mean I'm not working class. Some of us voted remain. Not because I think the EU is some glorious institution but because I could see, a mile off, that the current shower were going to lead our exit from it and I didn't buy the lexit wank fantasy that's now, predictably, dead in the water.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 30, 2021)

Badgers said:


> No. I was wrong to post it as Brexit is going really well. That ^ poster on ignore was right to call me out and insult me.
> 
> #worldbeating


You can post what you want Badgers, I'm fine with that, however, all our posts are open to comment. Sometimes we take the comments on the chin , others we dodge. Brexit is neither sunny uplands or ravaging food shortages.


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Jul 30, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> The first step to wisdom is accepting that you know nothing


Right backacha old boy


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 30, 2021)

Doctor Carrot said:


> Right backacha old boy


Oh I realised that one day in 1995. You have yet to enjoy your socratean moment


----------



## brogdale (Jul 30, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> You can post what you want Badgers, I'm fine with that, however, all our posts are open to comment. Sometimes we take the comments on the chin , others we dodge. Brexit is neither sunny uplands or ravaging food shortages.


_Same as it ever was, same as it ever was
Same as it ever was, same as it ever was
Same as it ever was, same as it ever was
Same as it ever was, same as it ever was_


----------



## Badgers (Jul 30, 2021)

Nah, I feel bad now. It is just teething problems and the sovereignty is worth the minor downsides.


----------



## brogdale (Jul 30, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Nah, I feel bad now. It is just teething problems and the sovereignty is worth the minor downsides.


#TakenBackControlOfOurBorders ....even the new ones!


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 30, 2021)

Doctor Carrot said:


> Seems you completely failed to read the post I was responding to. If you had bothered to read it you would see why I said what I said.
> 
> It's so fucking boring having bellends like you thinking they speak for the entire working class and assume the entire working class voted leave.  I work in a shop, claim benefits and live in shit rented accommodation. Just because I don't wank on about working class stereotypes from the middle of the 20th century it doesn't mean I'm not working class. Some of us voted remain. Not because I think the EU is some glorious institution but because I could see, a mile off, that the current shower were going to lead our exit from it and I didn't buy the lexit wank fantasy that's now, predictably, dead in the water.


Tbh I read your 'reply' to my reminiscing post several times and couldn't fathom out at all what you were on about . I was simply pointing out how life was pre open all hour supermarkets etc compared to the current day expectation that everything we want is available at anytime ( that is if you have the money). What point were you making btw.?


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Jul 30, 2021)

Edit: CBA


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 30, 2021)

Doctor Carrot said:


> Perhaps I misread your post but it sounded like you were harking back to better times before supermarkets where people stood in queues and drank warm beer in pubs that shut early and that Brexit would somehow bring those better times back. I was disagreeing they were better times or that Brexit would bring them back.


Yes you did misread my post . The other thing to bear in mind is that the EU wasn't responsible for the introduction of cold beer in the UK. and Europe also has queues.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jul 30, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> I don't think the Leave campaign explicitly promised to get rid of supermarkets and restore the shopping conditions of the 1970s, tbf.
> 
> Personally, I'd much prefer visiting several small shops then having a few pints and watching the races to going to the supermarket, though there would likely be some strain on my marriage after the 50th time I came home pissed in the afternoon and realised I'd left the meat I'd bought five hours earlier in the pub.



Loose meat etc


----------



## spitfire (Jul 30, 2021)

I got some petits pois today in my Sainsbury's delivery. Nature is healing.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 30, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> I don't think the Leave campaign explicitly promised to get rid of supermarkets and restore the shopping conditions of the 1970s, tbf.
> 
> Personally, I'd much prefer visiting several small shops then having a few pints and watching the races to going to the supermarket, though there would likely be some strain on my marriage after the 50th time I came home pissed in the afternoon and realised I'd left the meat I'd bought five hours earlier in the pub.


Done that a few times normally left it on a radiator.  I must tip my hat off to the Intermarche supermarket in Ferreiras  who have a bar in the shop


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 30, 2021)

spitfire said:


> I got some petits pois today in my Sainsbury's delivery. Nature is healing.


Hope the checkout woman was suitably quizzed


----------



## spitfire (Jul 30, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Hope the checkout woman was suitably quizzed



It was a male delivery driver and I didn't discover the manna from heaven until he'd left. We mainly talked about how much the area had changed since he'd lived there which made me feel even more middle class guilt than usual. I fixed that with an avocado bap and some sneering on twitter.


----------



## Badgers (Jul 30, 2021)

Thanks so much


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 30, 2021)

Doctor Carrot said:


> It's so fucking boring having bellends like you thinking they speak for the entire working class and assume the entire working class voted leave. I work in a shop, claim benefits and live in shit rented accommodation. Just because I don't wank on about working class stereotypes from the middle of the 20th century it doesn't mean I'm not working class



Who’s said they are speaking for the entire working class? Not interested in what class you are. Finally, nobody has claimed the entire working class like a pint and to watch the horses on a Saturday, but plenty do. What have they done, exactly, to earn your dismissive ire?


----------



## sleaterkinney (Jul 30, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Another crank. Soviet News….
> 
> What an absolute rabble continuity remain has become. A collection point for shit politics and idiots. As it drifts into the peripheral fringe it was inevitable that it would happen.


Is that what politics on the fringe is like?


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Jul 30, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Who’s said they are speaking for the entire working class? Not interested in what class you are. Finally, nobody has claimed the entire working class like a pint and to watch the horses on a Saturday, but plenty do. What have they done, exactly, to earn your dismissive ire?



You seem to have mistaken me for some sneering middle class remoaner. I didn't even mention class in the post you responded to but you decided to bring it up.

 I don't have ire for anyone who wants to do what you mentioned. I do have ire, however, for people voting to remove my rights, the rights of my nephews and any children I might spawn because Saturday mornings aren't what they used to be. I don't really have a problem with nostalgia but I do when people use it as a basis to vote in a referendum that has massive implications for the country I live in.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jul 30, 2021)

It's increasingly apparent that there are many fringes.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 30, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> It's increasingly apparent that there are many fringes.


Some posters on here are on the fringes of fringes


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 30, 2021)

Doctor Carrot said:


> . I do have ire, however, for people voting to remove my rights, the rights of my nephews and any children I might spawn because Saturday mornings aren't what they used to be.



You do realise that nobody has suggested that right?


----------



## krtek a houby (Jul 30, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Some posters on here are on the fringes of fringes



And some have side partings


----------



## gosub (Jul 30, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> People in peripheral fringes shouldn't start throwing stones


what about guinea pigs?Guinea Pigs With Bangs


----------



## gosub (Jul 30, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> The replies pretty much sum it up






still on the topbar of the bbc news website Brexit News - BBC News


----------



## editor (Jul 30, 2021)

More Brexit wining 



> In Tokyo, Honda executives denied the decision had anything to with Brexit but it came as the British government was in deadlock over whether to stay in the European Single Market or leave, and risk 10% export tariffs on sales to the EU.
> 
> Prof Graves is convinced Brexit played a crucial part.
> 
> ...











						Honda workers in Swindon to face 'reality check' after it closes
					

Swindon car plant prepares to stop production on July 30 after 35 years of production.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Jul 30, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> You do realise that nobody has suggested that right?


Perhaps not on this thread, although I did think that was what The39thStep was getting at but let's not pretend nostalgia for this imagined wonderful past didn't play a role in this shit show.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 30, 2021)

gosub said:


> what about guinea pigs?Guinea Pigs With Bangs


You should see guinea pigs with bangs on bhang


----------



## Elpenor (Jul 30, 2021)

editor said:


> More Brexit wining
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I know someone who works at the Swindon plant in a relatively senior role.

The decision is as much to do with diesels being less popular, electric cars becoming more popular and Asian markets being more critical to Honda as it is with Brexit.

Of course it’s easier for Honda to blame Brexit than their own shit business strategy


----------



## Badgers (Jul 30, 2021)




----------



## gosub (Jul 30, 2021)

Elpenor said:


> I know someone who works at the Swindon plant in a relatively senior role.
> 
> The decision is as much to do with diesels being less popular, electric cars becoming more popular and Asian markets being more critical to Honda as it is with Brexit.
> 
> Of course it’s easier for Honda to blame Brexit than their own shit business strategy


their "shit business strategy" made them pretty much the only significant car manufacturer not done for bending the rules for emissions.  Feel sorry for Honda always had a soft spot them and they were seen off .over what happened with Rover


----------



## Yossarian (Jul 30, 2021)

Badgers said:


>




"Those lying Remainer fucks said there'd be fruit shortages, certainly wasn't the case in Wigan today."


----------



## gosub (Jul 30, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> "Those lying Remainer fucks said there'd be fruit shortages, certainly wasn't the case in Wigan today."
> 
> View attachment 281298


Is this part of the softening up for CPTPP?


----------



## bimble (Jul 30, 2021)

This is a bit scary. If there’s no milk for our tea what are we supposed to do drink it with lemon like those weird foreigners do? 









						Up to quarter of supermarket milk deliveries missed due to driver shortages, says dairy giant
					

Arla Foods UK chief Ash Amirahmadi warns of a "summer of disruption" unless bold action is taken by the government to tackle the industry-wide problem.




					news.sky.com


----------



## Supine (Jul 30, 2021)

You’ll need a bumper crop of U.K. lemons to allow that


----------



## spitfire (Jul 30, 2021)

bimble said:


> This is a bit scary. If there’s no milk for our tea what are we supposed to do drink it with lemon like those weird foreigners do?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Imma gonna get me a cow, put it in my 8 x 4 backyard, should just fit. Think outside the box bimble.


----------



## Spymaster (Jul 30, 2021)

spitfire said:


> ... my 8 x 4 backyard


Get a goat.


----------



## spitfire (Jul 30, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Get a goat.



Or I could have both!


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 30, 2021)

Doctor Carrot said:


> Perhaps not on this thread, although I did think that was what The39thStep was getting at but let's not pretend nostalgia for this imagined wonderful past didn't play a role in this shit show.


Well let's not pretend my post had anything to do with that , it was completely about life before open all hours trading.


----------



## Badgers (Jul 30, 2021)

bimble said:


> This is a bit scary. If there’s no milk for our tea what are we supposed to do drink it with lemon like those weird foreigners do?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Covid strikes again


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jul 30, 2021)

bimble said:


> This is a bit scary. If there’s no milk for our tea what are we supposed to do drink it with lemon like those weird foreigners do?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Drink green tea like I do


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jul 30, 2021)

Elpenor said:


> I know someone who works at the Swindon plant in a relatively senior role.
> 
> The decision is as much to do with diesels being less popular, electric cars becoming more popular and Asian markets being more critical to Honda as it is with Brexit.
> 
> Of course it’s easier for Honda to blame Brexit than their own shit business strategy



Honda, the people who made the decision stated as fact Brexit had nothing to do with it. The article is some  professor saying he thinks he knows better and that Honda did pull out cos Brexit and not cos shite sales in europe vs US and the electric car revolution, something that seems to be heavily centred on the U.K., oddly enough.


----------



## Badgers (Jul 31, 2021)




----------



## Streathamite (Jul 31, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> I was talking / reminiscing to a mate of mine in the U.K. about Saturday mornings before the supermarkets took over and opened all hours . Used to be queues outside the butchers from 8 onwards to get the best bits of meat , same with bakers for bread , fishmongers for fish and the grocers for fruit and veg . If you hadn’t done your shopping by 3 in the afternoon you just made do with what they had left as nothing was open Sundays .
> Used to the paper sale 10 o’clock for an hour , quick pint , do the shopping and back in the pub for a pint . Pick some horses out , watch the racing in the pub and then totter off home at 3 when the pub closed.


You are sounding like an eerie echo of the 4 Yorkshiremen sketch here, tbh


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 31, 2021)

Streathamite said:


> You are sounding like an eerie echo of the 4 Yorkshiremen sketch here, tbh


True .  Don’t get me started on days before central heating .


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 31, 2021)

bimble said:


> This is a bit scary. If there’s no milk for our tea what are we supposed to do drink it with lemon like those weird foreigners do?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Echoes of the misery caused by the great Kentucky Fried Chicken shortage when people were forced to ring the Police


----------



## bimble (Jul 31, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Echoes of the misery caused by the great Kentucky Fried Chicken shortage when people were forced to ring the Police


What are you talking about . No cup of tea would be a genuine emergency.


----------



## Badgers (Jul 31, 2021)

__





						It’s not Covid that’s damaging British trade. It’s Brexit | International trade | The Guardian
					






					amp-theguardian-com.cdn.ampproject.org
				






> For a while it wasn’t clear how much the pandemic was complicating the picture. Those who campaigned for Britain to quit the single market and customs union were able to hide behind broader figures that showed global trade taking a hit – and, since January, when the transition period came to an end, how the second and third waves of the virus had distorted most exporting countries’ trading patterns.
> 
> That isn’t true any more. There are just too many independent reports examining the UK’s trade figures that are reaching the same conclusion: Brexit is bad for exporters. And not just today and tomorrow, but for a very long time.


----------



## Badgers (Jul 31, 2021)




----------



## The39thStep (Jul 31, 2021)

Badgers said:


>



👍


----------



## sleaterkinney (Jul 31, 2021)

Badgers said:


>



Continuity Comintern will be happy to see the bourgeois smashed!


----------



## MrSki (Jul 31, 2021)

This is the reality.   

Try and spin this.


----------



## MrSki (Jul 31, 2021)

In case anyone still thinks it is project fear.









						Swindon Honda plant closes down with loss of 3000 jobs | ITV News
					

The Japanese car giant has been producing vehicles in Wiltshire for 36 years, but today is their final day. | ITV News West Country




					www.itv.com


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jul 31, 2021)

Badgers said:


> I’m getting to stores who are taking the stock off the back and desperately shoving it straight onto shelves.





wtf do they normally do with it then?


----------



## MickiQ (Jul 31, 2021)

bimble said:


> This is a bit scary. If there’s no milk for our tea what are we supposed to do drink it with lemon like those weird foreigners do?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No some things are just completely beyond the pale


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jul 31, 2021)

MrSki said:


> In case anyone still thinks it is project fear.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




From your article:


*Why is Honda closing its only European factory?*
Honda bosses say they sell more cars in Asia and America than in Europe and so need to focus their production in their strongest markets.

But not everyone is convinced this is the real reason.

Professor Andrew Graves at the University of Bath believes the factory may be closing due to Brexit.



Honda states as fact it's cos: Honda bosses say they sell more cars in Asia and America than in Europe and so need to focus their production in their strongest markets.

But this guy has a belief: Professor Andrew Graves at the University of Bath believes the factory may be closing due to Brexit.

So which is right, the company stating their reason for closing its only factory in Europe cos Europe is a dead market or some professor's belief?


----------



## Raheem (Jul 31, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> No some things are just completely beyond the pale



Pail


----------



## pseudonarcissus (Jul 31, 2021)

bimble said:


> This is a bit scary. If there’s no milk for our tea what are we supposed to do drink it with lemon like those weird foreigners do?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


There won’t be i ported EU lemons any more, your better start cultivating quinces


----------



## krtek a houby (Jul 31, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> No some things are just completely beyond the pale



And why would you use that particular phrase?


----------



## RedRedRose (Aug 1, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> wtf do they normally do with it then?


Storage and stock rotation; selling the old stuff first. EPOS is supposed to eliminate gaps in the supply chain.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Aug 1, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> wtf do they normally do with it then?



We'd take it off the truck and shove into in the loading bay for 24-48 hours then put it in the shelves as the day went on.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Aug 1, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> We'd take it off the truck and shove into in the loading bay for 24-48 hours then put it in the shelves as the day went on.



Why? Let the loo rolls get a bit gamey?


----------



## bimble (Aug 1, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> why do people shop in these places when Aldi and Lidl are so much cheaper and treat their staff better?


hmm. Lorry drivers disagree.









						Hauliers ‘boycotting’ Lidl over driver shortage response
					

A lack of drivers across the UK is forcing haulage companies to rationalise their supermarket deliveries




					www.thegrocer.co.uk


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Aug 1, 2021)

bimble said:


> hmm. Lorry drivers disagree.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




How many of those are Lidl staff? A rough estimate will suffice here.


----------



## bimble (Aug 1, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> How many of those are Lidl staff? A rough estimate will suffice here.


Maybe the drivers are not employed directly by Lidl but the point is that Lidl treats delivery drivers so badly that they're basically being boycotted and running out of bog roll. Not brilliant. 
Good detail in that article i thought, about which shops are faring worst and why.


----------



## Supine (Aug 1, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> How many of those are Lidl staff? A rough estimate will suffice here.



None. The story is about food being delivered to lidl warehouses. Their drivers take it from there to the shops.


----------



## bimble (Aug 1, 2021)

i successfully smuggled lots of cheese across the border yesterday, personal use only, so i'm fine, its all sunny uplands here.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Aug 1, 2021)

Edit already  posted


----------



## Badgers (Aug 1, 2021)

__





						EU citizens who applied to stay in Britain facing threat of deportation | Brexit | The Guardian
					

The Home Office appears to be in breach of the Brexit withdrawal agreement, says legal charity




					amp.theguardian.com


----------



## Badgers (Aug 1, 2021)

They did it for all the right reasons


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 1, 2021)

Badgers said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Badgers do you have any more info on that figure quoted in the Guardian article that 500 out of the 1500 prisoners in Wandsworth Prison are EU nationals ?


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 1, 2021)

Great news









						Pay rise for Aldi lorry drivers amid shortage
					

The supermarket is the latest to offer incentives for drivers after disruption to supply chains.



					www.bbc.com


----------



## Badgers (Aug 1, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Badgers do you have any more info on that figure quoted in the Guardian article that 500 out of the 1500 prisoners in Wandsworth Prison are EU nationals ?


Will investigate. I would assume this is not a fake news story given the implications.


----------



## Badgers (Aug 1, 2021)




----------



## The39thStep (Aug 1, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Will investigate. I would assume this is not a fake news story given the implications.


Ta pal . At first I thought it meant 500 detained over no settled status but after thinking about it they’d no doubt be in one of the immigration centres rather than prison . I assume these 500 must be in for criminal related stuff ?


----------



## Supine (Aug 1, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Ta pal . At first I thought it meant 500 detained over no settled status but after thinking about it they’d no doubt be in one of the immigration centres rather than prison . I assume these 500 must be in for criminal related stuff ?



I wonder how many Brits are in European jails


----------



## Badgers (Aug 1, 2021)

Supine said:


> I wonder how many Brits are in European jails


Less that there should be #costadelcrime


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 1, 2021)

Supine said:


> I wonder how many Brits are in European jails


Dunno pal. For one prison to have a third of its inmates from abroad is high though. It might be they have a policy to house all EU ones at Wandsworth . I haven’t a clue and to be honest no way of verifying the figures or why they are there.


----------



## Dogsauce (Aug 1, 2021)

Badgers said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Can I just say that calling this Twitter thing ‘The Churchill Project‘ is such a fucking lazy derivative of USAs ‘the Lincoln Project‘ that it makes me hate them just for the total lack of imagination and creativity.  Fuck their message, get some new ideas you piss weak bastards.


----------



## Badgers (Aug 1, 2021)

Seems there is some truth


----------



## Artaxerxes (Aug 1, 2021)




----------



## NoXion (Aug 2, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Seems there is some truth




"You’re unable to view this Tweet because this account owner limits who can view their Tweets."

Always love it when people forget what kind of echo chamber they're operating in.


----------



## bimble (Aug 2, 2021)

NoXion said:


> "You’re unable to view this Tweet because this account owner limits who can view their Tweets."
> 
> Always love it when people forget what kind of echo chamber they're operating in.


it wasn't like that when badgers posted it, i had a good scroll down from that link yesterday. The person probably limited access cos of too many replies from other people posting their own local empty shelves, it was a lot.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 2, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Seems there is some truth



And this is why people should take screenshots


----------



## NoXion (Aug 2, 2021)

bimble said:


> it wasn't like that when badgers posted it, i had a good scroll down from that link yesterday. The person probably limited access cos of too many replies from other people posting their own local empty shelves, it was a lot.



Are you sure that's the reason? "Too many replies", my arse. Twitter is a major website that handles millions of users a day.


----------



## bimble (Aug 2, 2021)

NoXion said:


> Are you sure that's the reason? "Too many replies", my arse. Twitter is a major website that handles millions of users a day.


its not twitter who would have protected the tweet just the person who posted it


----------



## Yossarian (Aug 2, 2021)

NoXion said:


> Are you sure that's the reason? "Too many replies", my arse. Twitter is a major website that handles millions of users a day.



It's up to the user - if they wake up to find their tweet has become a frontline in the Brexit Wars or whatever and they have 70,000 notifications, they have the option to click a button and limit the tweet to their followers only.


----------



## NoXion (Aug 2, 2021)

bimble said:


> its not twitter who would have protected the tweet just the person who posted it



Notifications can be turned off (and the post in question ignored) if you don't want them blowing up due to a post going viral. Blocking access to the whole tweet is suspect.


----------



## bimble (Aug 2, 2021)

NoXion said:


> Notifications can be turned off (and the post in question ignored) if you don't want them blowing up due to a post going viral. Blocking access to the whole tweet is suspect.


what's your suspicion?


----------



## NoXion (Aug 2, 2021)

bimble said:


> what's your suspicion?



OP got embarassed by something and wanted to cover up.


----------



## bimble (Aug 2, 2021)

NoXion said:


> OP got embarassed by something and wanted to cover up.


ok, like they were caught out with a fake photo of shelves from Irkutst in 1975?  It wasnt that i am sure, as said i had a good long scroll of the replies yesterday.


----------



## NoXion (Aug 2, 2021)

bimble said:


> ok, like they were caught out with a fake photo of shelves from Irkutst in 1975?  It wasnt that i am sure, as said i had a good long scroll of the replies yesterday.



You may be sure. I cannot be since as far as I can tell the post went down the memory hole.


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 2, 2021)

When I looked at it I remembered the poster saying that there was a lack of abundance and freshness in Morrisons, and other supermarkets  which to be frank is a slightly odd comment


----------



## bimble (Aug 2, 2021)

Seriously though, if people still think there is no supply issue in this country and that its all just lying Remoaners idk whether anything would change your mind short of some proper milk riots when half the country is without cups of tea.


----------



## Yossarian (Aug 2, 2021)

I'm seeing way too much of this kind of stupid shit on Facebook etc. though.




And I only saw it because it was shared by someone who lives in Hong Kong.  

People don't seem to get that spreading this kind of stuff sets Brexiters up to say "I went to my local supermarket today and there was food on the shelves instead of dismayed people staring at shelves where food used to be, consequently Brexit has been a success."


----------



## bimble (Aug 2, 2021)

All the empty shelf photos have got to be causing people to buy more than they need as well, exacerbating the problem. Just all a bit shit isnt it.


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Aug 2, 2021)

From what I can tell there's definitely an issue but it's patchy and varies from supermarket chain/store. It's just another thing to be divided over though innit?

'There's shortages. My local supermarket is empty and has been for ages'

'No there isn't everything's fine. Your pictures are doctored from early 90s Vladivostok.'

Edit: seems I've reached an age where I can't attach a gif properly to a post anymore


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 2, 2021)

bimble said:


> Seriously though, if people still think there is no supply issue in this country and that its all just lying Remoaners idk whether anything would change your mind short of some proper milk riots when half the country is without cups of tea.


for me it's not that there is no supply issue but that there have been supply issues for years - i was mentioning something on this point in 2018 and i'm sure if i really looked i'd find something even earlier. as for milk riots, given the range of substitutes for cow milk i doubt there'd be such scraps and hopefully at least some people would find out that by adding milk to their tea they'd actually been ruining the drink.


----------



## xenon (Aug 2, 2021)

No way. Black tea and lemon is an emergency no milk, / too hungover to go to the shop, situation.

Oat milk is passable in strong coffee. But I don't think the shortages are due to lack of cows anyway.


----------



## bimble (Aug 2, 2021)

Always knew Pickman's model was a miscreant, not remotely surprised he doesn't understand how to make a cup of tea properly.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 2, 2021)

bimble said:


> Always knew Pickman's model was a miscreant, not remotely surprised he doesn't understand how to make a cup of tea properly.


i understand it perfectly. which is why i don't adulterate the drink with milk.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Aug 2, 2021)

Milk in tea or coffee is just wrong.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Aug 2, 2021)

And fattening, adult humans can't digest it properly.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Aug 2, 2021)

And I just went to the local Lidl and the beef fridge was bare, also only two styles of salami and no jelly or antiseptic spray.


----------



## gosub (Aug 2, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> I'm seeing way too much of this kind of stupid shit on Facebook etc. though.
> 
> View attachment 281702
> 
> ...



This weekend there were some jholes . I grant you (said last there wasn't coz there wasm't) but you could do a reasonable shop. 

Got a bigger problem with it  off the back of last year - how much does this sort of stuff actually encourage panic buying?


----------



## bimble (Aug 2, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> And I just went to the local Lidl and the beef fridge was bare, also only two styles of salami and no jelly or antiseptic spray.


Your shopping list is concerning.


----------



## bimble (Aug 2, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> for me it's not that there is no supply issue but that there have been supply issues for years - i was mentioning something on this point in 2018 and i'm sure if i really looked i'd find something even earlier. .


Business as usual.. 
" stock levels compared with expected sales across the distribution sector reached the *lowest point since 1983* for the second consecutive month.'


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 2, 2021)

bimble said:


> Business as usual..
> " stock levels compared with expected sales across the distribution sector reached the *lowest point since 1983* for the second consecutive month.'


i'm talking about food and i don't know what you're talking about. the retail sector isn't just food, you know. and the distribution sector moves more than just food

in fact it's not you talking at all


----------



## two sheds (Aug 2, 2021)

gosub said:


> This weekend there were some jholes . I grant you (said last there wasn't coz there wasm't) but you could do a reasonable shop.
> 
> Got a bigger problem with it  off the back of last year - how much does this sort of stuff actually encourage panic buying?


jholes?  do they fall into a different, imaginary, dimension? Fucking hell brexit's gone bad


----------



## Nine Bob Note (Aug 2, 2021)

bimble said:


> Your shopping list is concerning.


 You buy cheap meat from Lidl, you takes your chances


----------



## xenon (Aug 2, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> i'm talking about food and i don't know what you're talking about. the retail sector isn't just food, you know. and the distribution sector moves more than just food
> 
> in fact it's not you talking at all


It's alright, loads of other items are out of stock too. Non food items.

I wanted to buy a small mixer for my iPhone. They're out of stock everywhere. Very much an FWP and likely to do with the effect Covid19 is having on manufacturing and supply chains of course.

I can live with that. And TBF I got more in my last Tesco delivery, than I was expecting. Rather, fewer items missing than I was expecting. But there were also quite a lot of fairly normal things missing on their virtual shelves in the first place.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Aug 2, 2021)

xenon said:


> It's alright, loads of other items are out of stock too. Non food items.
> 
> I wanted to buy a *small mixer for my iPhone.* They're out of stock everywhere. Very much an FWP and likely to do with the effect Covid19 is having on manufacturing and supply chains of course.
> 
> I can live with that. And TBF I got more in my last Tesco delivery, than I was expecting. Rather, fewer items missing than I was expecting. But there were also quite a lot of fairly normal things missing on their virtual shelves in the first place.




The what now?


----------



## gosub (Aug 2, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> The what now?


If you put an iPhone in a glass and then fill it with tonic water makes a refreshing summer beverage.


Don't try it with android phoned


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Aug 2, 2021)

gosub said:


> If you put an iPhone in a glass and then fill it with tonic water makes a refreshing summer beverage.
> 
> 
> Don't try it with android phoned




Android, remainer phones.


----------



## krtek a houby (Aug 2, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Android, remainer phones.



Oh, crap.

Is there a way to convert them to leave?


----------



## Supine (Aug 2, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> Oh, crap.
> 
> Is there a way to convert them to leave?



smash them to pieces and blame the french


----------



## Badgers (Aug 3, 2021)




----------



## MickiQ (Aug 3, 2021)

Badgers said:


>



Doesn't bother me mate, my post-Brexit, lockdown lurgy stash contains plenty of food AND a stock of masks


----------



## Badgers (Aug 3, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> Doesn't bother me mate, my post-Brexit, lockdown lurgy stash contains plenty of food AND a stock of masks


Fair play... 

But some people might find these Sunlit Uplands tricky


----------



## bimble (Aug 3, 2021)

Brexit is killing thousands of pumpkins and you lot don't care. 









						Brexit: Vegetable producer says labour shortage means food is being thrown away
					

Vegetable producer Alfred G Pearce said it was operating at 70% of its labour capacity.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 3, 2021)

All these businessmen moaning that there's now a shortage of foreign labour to exploit with shit wages and conditions.

Doesn't your heart just bleed for them?


----------



## MickiQ (Aug 3, 2021)

bimble said:


> Brexit is killing thousands of pumpkins and you lot don't care.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think referring to pumpkins as food is stretching it a bit far to be honest as for the farmer complaining of getting labour well sorry pal, offer more money and eventually you will get someone, that's kind of how the free market works.
It's all very well complaining that higher wages are unaffordable but clearly just chucking stuff way isn't cheap either.


----------



## krtek a houby (Aug 3, 2021)

Nobody eats pumpkins anyway.


----------



## bimble (Aug 3, 2021)

Exactly as expected, cold hearted indifference to the plight of the blameless pumpkins.


----------



## krtek a houby (Aug 3, 2021)

bimble said:


> Exactly as expected, cold hearted indifference to the plight of the blameless pumpkins.



I'm alright, jack-o-lantern


----------



## bimble (Aug 3, 2021)

being serious for a minute though, realistically for the job of weeding pumpkin fields to be worth considering for UK people i wonder how much they'd have to pay.
Because these jobs are obvs in rural areas so you would mostly need people to move away temporarily from home to go and weed the fields for whatever it is limited number of weeks or months per year when the work exists.
Rent is so high here it would need to be enough money for people to keep paying rent at home and go and live on a farm for a season? Instead of getting a different job, near home, that isn't just a few weeks a year. 
I don't really see how this whole thing will get resolved tbh, after decades of relying on seasonal workers from abroad, unless some mad government national service pumpkin program for wayward youth or something. Other than that looks likely there'll just be less food production going on in the UK and more stuff being imported.


----------



## andysays (Aug 3, 2021)

bimble said:


> being serious for a minute though, realistically for the job of weeding pumpkin fields to be worth considering for UK people i wonder how much they'd have to pay.
> Because these jobs are obvs in rural areas so you would mostly need people to move away temporarily from home to go and weed the fields for whatever it is limited number of weeks or months per year when the work exists.
> Rent is so high here it would need to be enough money for people to keep paying rent at home and go and live on a farm for a season? Instead of getting a different job, near home, that isn't just a few weeks a year.
> I don't really see how this whole thing will get resolved tbh, after decades of relying on seasonal workers from abroad, unless some mad government national service pumpkin program for wayward youth or something. Other than that looks likely there'll just be less food production going on in the UK and more stuff being imported.


It's tempting at this stage to suggest that maybe the real problem might be the decades of relying on cheap seasonal workers from abroad and the structural changes in many industries that have resulted, and the combination of Brexit and Covid making that no longer workable might just be the eventual bursting of that bubble.

Probably ridiculous, but I thought I'd just throw it in to give everyone a laugh...


----------



## Supine (Aug 3, 2021)

Didn’t the dig for Britain campaign attracts about zero applicants last year.

As said, who would move to the country for only a couple of months when they can work full time elsewhere.


----------



## bimble (Aug 3, 2021)

Supine said:


> Didn’t the dig for Britain campaign attracts about zero applicants last year.
> 
> As said, who would move to the country for only a couple of months when they can work full time elsewhere.


It did attract a fair number of people but they only weeded for a week or two, as a kind of novelty experience, then left and went home.

eta yep: 
'Of the 450 UK based workers (this includes British and EU workers living in the UK) we placed with our clients less than 4% remained on the assignment at the end of the season. Common feedback from the British nationals placed by Pro-Force was that many of them wanted to “do their bit” at time of national crisis and we do not see this as a long term, viable option to provide the labour the industry needs in 2021 and beyond.'


----------



## bimble (Aug 3, 2021)

andysays said:


> It's tempting at this stage to suggest that maybe the real problem might be the decades of relying on cheap seasonal workers from abroad and the structural changes in many industries that have resulted, and the combination of Brexit and Covid making that no longer workable might just be the eventual bursting of that bubble.
> 
> Probably ridiculous, but I thought I'd just throw it in to give everyone a laugh...


Sure. But you may as well say that the real problem is the last several generations of urbanisation etc. Its not going to be easy to rewind back to a situation where seasonal farm work is a viable option for people living in the UK with its housing situation.


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 3, 2021)

bimble said:


> being serious for a minute though, realistically for the job of weeding pumpkin fields to be worth considering for UK people i wonder how much they'd have to pay.
> Because these jobs are obvs in rural areas so you would mostly need people to move away temporarily from home to go and weed the fields for whatever it is limited number of weeks or months per year when the work exists.
> Rent is so high here it would need to be enough money for people to keep paying rent at home and go and live on a farm for a season? Instead of getting a different job, near home, that isn't just a few weeks a year.
> I don't really see how this whole thing will get resolved tbh, after decades of relying on seasonal workers from abroad, unless some mad government national service pumpkin program for wayward youth or something. Other than that looks likely there'll just be less food production going on in the UK and more stuff being imported.



I think you're probably right that certain foods won't be produced in the UK as much any more. If paying your employees a fair wage makes your business unprofitable, you don't have a viable business. Close it and do something else


----------



## Badgers (Aug 3, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> I think you're probably right that certain foods won't be produced in the UK as much any more. If paying your employees a fair wage makes your business unprofitable, you don't have a viable business. Close it and do something else


Cyber?


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 3, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> Nobody eats pumpkins anyway.


I like pumpkins however the vast majority of pumpkin production is for Halloween and is grown for size not taste most of which is chucked away afterwards. Unsold Halloween pumpkins are later sold as farm animal food.


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 3, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Cyber?



Not now mate. Maybe tonight if I'm pissed.


----------



## bimble (Aug 3, 2021)

The people who used to weed our British pumpkins what are they doing now anyway? Weeding German ones?


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 3, 2021)

bimble said:


> The people who used to weed our British pumpkins what are they doing now anyway? Weeding German ones?



Yes. Or picking Lingonberries in Sweden. They have a huge migrant workforce for that.


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 3, 2021)

bimble said:


> The people who used to weed our British pumpkins what are they doing now anyway? Weeding German ones?


Think you will find that weedkillers are mainly used


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 3, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Fair play...
> 
> But some people might find these Sunlit Uplands tricky


Sunlit Uplands has seen interest in her porn films flourish recently


----------



## bimble (Aug 3, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Think you will find that weedkillers are mainly used


tell that to this sad faced pumpkin man, he'll be delighted to learn he's been worrying over nothing.


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 3, 2021)

bimble said:


> tell that to this sad faced pumpkin man, he'll be delighted to learn he's been worrying over nothing.
> View attachment 281843


I'll send him an email. Where are the half that arent dying?


----------



## ElizabethofYork (Aug 3, 2021)

My husband works in a warehouse, where they've always relied on workers from the EU.  Right now they have severe staff shortages and are offering bonuses and bribes to the existing workforce to work extra shifts.


----------



## xenon (Aug 3, 2021)

andysays said:


> It's tempting at this stage to suggest that maybe the real problem might be the decades of relying on cheap seasonal workers from abroad and the structural changes in many industries that have resulted, and the combination of Brexit and Covid making that no longer workable might just be the eventual bursting of that bubble.
> 
> Probably ridiculous, but I thought I'd just throw it in to give everyone a laugh...



There was an article I read about this very thing. Probably linked to off this thread a week or so ago IIRC. Conclusion, things need to change but how...

Anyway, quite obviously an unemployed person living in a city, for example, who relies on UC to pay their rent / mortgage , isn't going to take up a few weeks work in the middle of no where, if what they earn doesn't cover their rent. Plus running the risk of being without any income, if they have to reapply when the job finishes. Might be More viable for rural unemployed perhaps, assuming their housing costs are less and transport is available.


----------



## bimble (Aug 3, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> I think you're probably right that certain foods won't be produced in the UK as much any more. If paying your employees a fair wage makes your business unprofitable, you don't have a viable business. Close it and do something else


Is this the kind of thing that they mean when they talk about the opportunities made possible by brexit?


----------



## xenon (Aug 3, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Cyber?



Cider.


----------



## gosub (Aug 3, 2021)

xenon said:


> Cider.


Takes about 20 years to sort an apple orchard


----------



## MickiQ (Aug 3, 2021)

ElizabethofYork said:


> My husband works in a warehouse, where they've always relied on workers from the EU.  Right now they have severe staff shortages and are offering bonuses and bribes to the existing workforce to work extra shifts.


My nephew works as a maintenance engineer however as part of his job he needs to occasionally drive a very large truck and thus needs an HGV licence to do so, his employer has given him a payrise to discourage him from jacking in the engineering and going off to drive  truck for a living.The irony of this is that his girlfriend who used to work in a nursery had a baby earlier this year and this extra money means she can put off returning to work so one employer's attempts to solve his labour shortage is making someone else's worse.


----------



## krtek a houby (Aug 3, 2021)

bimble said:


> Is this the kind of thing that they mean when they talk about the opportunities made possible by brexit?



Everything will be fine.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 3, 2021)

bimble said:


> tell that to this sad faced pumpkin man, he'll be delighted to learn he's been worrying over nothing.
> View attachment 281843


So often people worry about nothing, as Edie Brickell makes clear in her song on the subject


----------



## andysays (Aug 3, 2021)

xenon said:


> There was an article I read about this very thing. Probably linked to off this thread a week or so ago IIRC. Conclusion, things need to change but how...
> 
> Anyway, quite obviously an unemployed person living in a city, for example, who relies on UC to pay their rent / mortgage , isn't going to take up a few weeks work in the middle of no where, if what they earn doesn't cover their rent. Plus running the risk of being without any income, if they have to reapply when the job finishes. Might be More viable for rural unemployed perhaps, assuming their housing costs are less and transport is available.


I agree that many of the jobs which were recently done by temporary low paid workers from poorer parts of the EU aren't immediately going to be taken up by the unemployed in Britain, whether urban or rural.

But my point was that it's our membership of the EU over the decades which had led to the structural changes in the economy which out us where we are now, and those structural changes are very little to do with movement between urban and rural areas within Britain. 

As we've seen recently (although the indications were already there for anyone paying attention), many industries have been restructured to take full advantage of the short term low paid workers freedom of movement for workers within the EU has made available, and many of them will struggle to re-restructure in the new situation.


----------



## seeformiles (Aug 3, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> View attachment 279366



These just edge ahead taste-wise (on my palate anyway!) 😉


----------



## bimble (Aug 3, 2021)

andysays said:


> I agree that many of the jobs which were recently done by temporary low paid workers from poorer parts of the EU aren't immediately going to be taken up by the unemployed in Britain, whether urban or rural.
> 
> But my point was that it's our membership of the EU over the decades which had led to the structural changes in the economy which out us where we are now, and those structural changes are very little to do with movement between urban and rural areas within Britain.
> 
> As we've seen recently (although the indications were already there for anyone paying attention), many industries have been restructured to take full advantage of the short term low paid workers freedom of movement for workers within the EU has made available, and many of them will struggle to re-restructure in the new situation.


What do you think will happen here in the UK as a result ?
Do you think in due course we will re invent ourselves with a new kind of economy that does not require any short term low paid workers?
Would there still be seasonal farm work in that future or will most farming just not be viable?
Quite interesting this stuff, looks like the Uk has had foreign workers picking its fruit and veg since just after the 2nd world war, EU just made it easier.



			https://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/BRIE/2021/689347/EPRS_BRI(2021)689347_EN.pdf
		





__





						The UK’s new immigration policy and the food supply chain - Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee - House of Commons
					






					publications.parliament.uk


----------



## Yossarian (Aug 3, 2021)

Isn't the shortage of farm workers a COVID thing, not a Brexit thing? When it's all over there will no doubt be middlemen providing pumpkin pickers from Peru for a pittance - wouldn't be surprised if agricultural workers brought to the UK ended up more exploited than they were before Brexit, since they'll be more tied to a single employer.


----------



## bimble (Aug 3, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> Isn't the shortage of farm workers a COVID thing, not a Brexit thing? When it's all over there will no doubt be middlemen providing pumpkin pickers from Peru for a pittance - wouldn't be surprised if agricultural workers brought to the UK ended up more exploited than they were before Brexit, since they'll be more tied to a single employer.


Some covid but mostly not that. People are choosing not to come here, even though the gov has allowed 30,000 special visas (exempt from the points based system) and no quarantine for migrant agricultural workers.
eg this is years old before we even heard of covid.








						Lack of migrant workers left food rotting in UK fields last year, data reveals
					

Exclusive: Brexit fears and falling pound left fruit and vegetable farms short of more than 4,000 workers, with senior MPs warning of a crisis




					www.theguardian.com
				




From this year, the UK has its new post brexit immigration system which means that _only EU workers with settled status __may take up or travel to the UK for seasonal roles below skill level RQF 3_. That includes pumpkin weeders.


----------



## mojo pixy (Aug 3, 2021)

I picked fruit and veg on farms near my home (just outside Portsmouth) during summer 1987 and 1988. I remember all the other pickers being locals, most of us were teens doing summer work, as I was. I'm just not sure teens will do that work any more even if they have farms near where they live.

I wonder who else on U75 has done fruit picking in the UK for work? I wouldn't do it nowadays (it's physically the hardest job I've ever done) but then again, I now do another job that we (the British population) seem to want done by someone else


----------



## Ax^ (Aug 3, 2021)

seeformiles said:


> These just edge ahead taste-wise (on my palate anyway!) 😉
> 
> View attachment 281856



pfft the Fenian Tatyo taste better


----------



## Ax^ (Aug 3, 2021)

bimble said:


> What do you think will happen here in the UK as a result ?
> Do you think in due course we will re invent ourselves with a new kind of economy that does not require any short term low paid workers?
> Would there still be seasonal farm work in that future or will most farming just not be viable?
> Quite interesting this stuff, looks like the Uk has had foreign workers picking its fruit and veg since just after the 2nd world war, EU just made it easier.
> ...



can see Boris pondering chain ganging the unemployed to fill the labour gap


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 3, 2021)

mojo pixy said:


> I picked fruit and veg on farms near my home (just outside Portsmouth) during summer 1987 and 1988. I remember all the other pickers being locals, most of us were teens doing summer work, as I was. I'm just not sure teens will do that work any more even if they have farms near where they live.
> 
> I wonder who else on U75 has done fruit picking in the UK for work? I wouldn't do it nowadays (it's physically the hardest job I've ever done) but then again, I now do another job that we (the British population) seem to want done by someone else


I did it , so did a lot my mates after we left school.  Pick For Britain: UK workers needed as foreign workers flown into UK amid crisis in farming sector


----------



## bimble (Aug 3, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> can see Boris pondering chain ganging the unemployed to fill the labour gap


yup. Johnson proposes hi-vis chain gangs as part of crime plan


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Aug 3, 2021)

mojo pixy said:


> I picked fruit and veg on farms near my home (just outside Portsmouth) during summer 1987 and 1988. I remember all the other pickers being locals, most of us were teens doing summer work, as I was. I'm just not sure teens will do that work any more even if they have farms near where they live.
> 
> I wonder who else on U75 has done fruit picking in the UK for work? I wouldn't do it nowadays (it's physically the hardest job I've ever done) but then again,



The only farm near me was an onion one, a number of mates picked there, it and they stank. I worked at Thorpe Park instead.



> I now do another job that we (the British population) seem to want done by someone else



Goat fluffer?


----------



## Dystopiary (Aug 3, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> andysays


Finally read that piece! Very interesting, thanks again.


----------



## bimble (Aug 3, 2021)

Until reading about them on this here very informative website i didn't even know that Fray Bentos were a thing but look at this cornucopia of good things i noticed whilst queuing for the post office counter yesterday in my nearest shop, sod the vegetables we will be fine. How do you get the lid off the pie tins ?


----------



## fishfinger (Aug 3, 2021)

bimble said:


> ...How do you get the lid off the pie tins ?


With a can opener.


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 3, 2021)

bimble said:


> Until reading about them on this here very informative website i didn't even know that Fray Bentos were a thing but look at this cornucopia of good things i noticed whilst queuing for the post office counter yesterday in my nearest shop, sod the vegetables we will be fine. How do you get the lid off the pie tins ? View attachment 281867


Steak and Kidney are the best ones. Serve on two buttered slices of bread and then pour tinned peas around the sides.


----------



## Maggot (Aug 3, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> All these businessmen moaning that there's now a shortage of foreign labour to exploit with shit wages and conditions.
> 
> Doesn't your heart just bleed for them?





bimble said:


> being serious for a minute though, realistically for the job of weeding pumpkin fields to be worth considering for UK people i wonder how much they'd have to pay.
> Because these jobs are obvs in rural areas so you would mostly need people to move away temporarily from home to go and weed the fields for whatever it is limited number of weeks or months per year when the work exists.
> Rent is so high here it would need to be enough money for people to keep paying rent at home and go and live on a farm for a season? Instead of getting a different job, near home, that isn't just a few weeks a year.
> I don't really see how this whole thing will get resolved tbh, after decades of relying on seasonal workers from abroad, unless some mad government national service pumpkin program for wayward youth or something. Other than that looks likely there'll just be less food production going on in the UK and more stuff being imported.


The real problem is the supermarkets who buy the vast majority of fruit and veg. Their buying power means that farmers and other food producers are working with wafer thin profit margins and can't afford to pay any more.


----------



## krtek a houby (Aug 3, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> pfft the Fenian Tatyo taste better



Yeah, but the word "Fenian" tastes bitter.

Even in jest.


----------



## Ax^ (Aug 3, 2021)

and kings Crisps still taste better than both


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 3, 2021)

Maggot said:


> The real problem is the supermarkets who buy the vast majority of fruit and veg. Their buying power means that farmers and other food producers are working with wafer thin profit margins and can't afford to pay any more.


I read a really good book on that but can't remember the name of it.


----------



## andysays (Aug 3, 2021)

bimble said:


> What do you think will happen here in the UK as a result ?
> Do you think in due course we will re invent ourselves with a new kind of economy that does not require any short term low paid workers?
> Would there still be seasonal farm work in that future or will most farming just not be viable?
> Quite interesting this stuff, looks like the Uk has had foreign workers picking its fruit and veg since just after the 2nd world war, EU just made it easier.
> ...


Of course I'm not suggesting that Brexit will immediately allow us to re invent ourselves with a new kind of economy which does not require any short term low paid workers.

And of course I'm aware that the UK has had foreign workers picking its fruit and veg since just after the 2nd world war, if not before.

But you appear to be trying to ignore the point that Britain's membership of the EU has been used to restructure large areas of the economy with massive increases in casualisation and low pay, and that this restructuring is not just a coincidence, it's a fundamental part of the purpose of the EU.

I'm not going to pretend I can predict exactly what will happen in the UK as a result, but there is now at least a greater chance for collective action from workers in some industries to improve their pay and conditions, and I welcome that, even if the only thing some people posting here can see is a few empty supermarket shelves.


----------



## seeformiles (Aug 3, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> pfft the Fenian Tatyo taste better



They’re almost even taste-wise but the Northern version has a better packet with a detailed production process on the rear of the bag (well they did 30 years ago…), has no religious affiliation I’m aware of, is made in Tayto castle where I once went to a brilliant rave in the basement. I rest my case.


----------



## seeformiles (Aug 3, 2021)

mojo pixy said:


> I picked fruit and veg on farms near my home (just outside Portsmouth) during summer 1987 and 1988. I remember all the other pickers being locals, most of us were teens doing summer work, as I was. I'm just not sure teens will do that work any more even if they have farms near where they live.
> 
> I wonder who else on U75 has done fruit picking in the UK for work? I wouldn't do it nowadays (it's physically the hardest job I've ever done) but then again, I now do another job that we (the British population) seem to want done by someone else



I worked picking spuds one summer - long hard badly paid work. If nothing else, it’s given me a good reference point as to what a really shit job actually is.


----------



## mojo pixy (Aug 3, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:
			
		

> Goat fluffer?



I've never been asked to give anyone an erection at work; I can't deny I have encountered a few. In social care though, a hard on isn't really the worst thing someone might have inside their trousers or under the covers.


----------



## seeformiles (Aug 3, 2021)

bimble said:


> Until reading about them on this here very informative website i didn't even know that Fray Bentos were a thing but look at this cornucopia of good things i noticed whilst queuing for the post office counter yesterday in my nearest shop, sod the vegetables we will be fine. How do you get the lid off the pie tins ? View attachment 281867



I had an urge for Spam a few months ago. It must have been decades since I last had some and it was fucking delicious.  I remember opening the tin with the wee key and thinking “Welcome home old friend!” 😋😋😋


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 3, 2021)

mojo pixy said:


> I picked fruit and veg on farms near my home (just outside Portsmouth) during summer 1987 and 1988. I remember all the other pickers being locals, most of us were teens doing summer work, as I was. I'm just not sure teens will do that work any more even if they have farms near where they live.
> 
> I wonder who else on U75 has done fruit picking in the UK for work? I wouldn't do it nowadays (it's physically the hardest job I've ever done) but then again, I now do another job that we (the British population) seem to want done by someone else



Much agricultural work is a non-starter for young British folk because it happens in the middle of nowhere and the day starts three hours before the first bus. Some picking work is good for transitory van-dwelling folk because they can just park up on the farm for six weeks or whatever but if you're a person with rent to pay on a non-portable residence then farm work is unlikely to add up. Universal credit also makes it harder than it once was to smooth out the feast-or-famine cycle of seasonal work.


----------



## mojo pixy (Aug 3, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> Much agricultural work is a non-starter for young British folk because it happens in the middle of nowhere and the day starts three hours before the first bus. Some picking work is good for transitory van-dwelling folk because they can just park up on the farm for six weeks or whatever but if you're a person with rent to pay on a non-portable residence then farm work is unlikely to add up. Universal credit also makes it harder than it once was to smooth out the feast-or-famine cycle of seasonal work.


Yes, all that possibly. But also it's hard, badly paid work nobody really wants to do.


----------



## Ax^ (Aug 3, 2021)

seeformiles said:


> They’re almost even taste-wise but the Northern version has a better packet with a detailed production process on the rear of the bag (well they did 30 years ago…), has no religious affiliation I’m aware of, is made in Tayto castle where I once went to a brilliant rave in the basement. I rest my case.



I was in jest with the Fenian remark my bad, 

not joking about kings being the better cheese and onion mind

saying that would not mind a bag of Manhattans atm


----------



## planetgeli (Aug 3, 2021)

mojo pixy said:


> I picked fruit and veg on farms near my home (just outside Portsmouth) during summer 1987 and 1988. I remember all the other pickers being locals, most of us were teens doing summer work, as I was. I'm just not sure teens will do that work any more even if they have farms near where they live.
> 
> I wonder who else on U75 has done fruit picking in the UK for work? I wouldn't do it nowadays (it's physically the hardest job I've ever done) but then again, I now do another job that we (the British population) seem to want done by someone else



My family all did fruit picking, me included. It was the early 70s, our grandma and my mum did it for extra money, it was piece work, you got paid by the basket. It was shit money. Not fruit as such, we picked beans. Full of women and children. I'd have been 10 at the oldest.

I also picked leeks as a summer job when I was 16. That's the hardest, most boring work I've ever done.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 3, 2021)

mojo pixy said:


> Yes, all that possibly. But also it's hard, badly paid work nobody really wants to do.



That certainly doesn't help. But hey it's only food, not something important like writing marketing copy for a recruitment agency that provides marketing consultants for the recruitment industry.


----------



## bimble (Aug 3, 2021)

It’s a funny thing that the first to leave the EU is also an island. That does probably make the underlying problems a bit more obvious. For instance in Switzerland the border with Italy is crazy busy every early morning & eve with workers coming in just for the day for the higher rate of pay than they could get at home.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Aug 3, 2021)

bimble said:


> It’s a funny thing that the first to leave the EU is also an island. That does probably make the underlying problems a bit more obvious. For instance in Switzerland the border with Italy is crazy busy every early morning & eve with workers coming in just for the day for the higher rate of pay than they could get at home.




Switzerland's not in the EU either. Goes to show how badly May fucked up with her red lines bollocks.


----------



## bimble (Aug 3, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Switzerland's not in the EU either. Goes to show how badly May fucked up with her red lines bollocks.


I know it’s not in the EU! I don’t know what you mean about red lines, Swiss are not allowing these workers to actually move in just to toil there and then go home again every day. Doesn’t work so well if you’re an island.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 3, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Switzerland's not in the EU either. Goes to show how badly May fucked up with her red lines bollocks.


Switzerland in the eea tho


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Aug 3, 2021)

bimble said:


> I know it’s not in the EU! I don’t know what you mean about red lines, Swiss are not allowing these workers to actually move in just to toil there and then go home again every day. Doesn’t work so well if you’re an island.



May's red lines were mental, she could have screwed a decent deal from the situation, but fucked it right at the start. The cake and eat it thing is what brexiteers wanted, it was never gonna be full on Schwarzwälder Kirschtorte but she ensured that both sides were stymied. 


e.g.


Pickman's model said:


> Switzerland in the eea tho



We could have been there. Or single market or some such and yet still had no freedom of movement, which seemed to be the biggie. The EU were prepared to offer massive concessions to avoid the shitshow we currently have, but when she came out with that, there was nowhere either side could go. A heavyweight contender for the worst prime minister of all time, not cos evil like Thatch, just shit beyond words.


----------



## bimble (Aug 3, 2021)

i thought no freedom of movement was the main one & can't remember what else she came out with, was no to the single market one of them?
eta oh yeah, 'an independent trade policy' was one of them, so thats that.


----------



## Yossarian (Aug 3, 2021)

In the longer term, the plan seems to be to eliminate pesky humans from the work as much as possible, which probably would have happened with or without Brexit - the start-up costs involved will no doubt accelerate the trend toward mega-farms.









						Brexit and Covid left farms bereft of workers. Enter Dick the robot
					

Meet Dick, a friendly farmhand who uses a five-pronged wand to electrocute weeds to death




					www.wired.co.uk


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Aug 3, 2021)

bimble said:


> i thought no freedom of movement was the main one & can't remember what else she came out with, was no to the single market one of them?


No single market, no customs union, no free movement, no paying to EU budget...

Freedom of movement was the big one, the driver for many to vote leave, not cos racist, but fed up of the lowering standards of living allowing free movement from much poorer nations brings (which is the point of the whole thing). The EU said you can't have one without the other, but had we explored staying in the customs union and/or single market with ending freedom of movement it is my bet they would have gone for it. Indeed Michel Barnier is running as a French politico on exactly that line for France.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 3, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> No single market, no customs union, no free movement, no paying to EU budget...
> 
> Freedom of movement was the big one, the driver for many to vote leave, not cos racist, but fed up of the lowering standards of living allowing free movement from much poorer nations brings (which is the point of the whole thing). The EU said you can't have one without the other, but had we explored staying in the customs union and/or single market with ending freedom of movement it is my bet they would have gone for it. Indeed Michel Barnier is running as a French politico on exactly that line for France.


They have Michel Barnier, we have Boris Barmier


----------



## bimble (Aug 3, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Freedom of movement was the big one, the driver for many to vote leave, not cos racist, but fed up of the lowering standards of living allowing free movement from much poorer nations brings


Do you think standard of living for most people in the UK will improve as a result of brexit?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Aug 3, 2021)

bimble said:


> Do you think standard of living in the UK will improve as a result of brexit?




For some people, yes. We have already seen truck drivers being offered more cash. Am not expecting sunlit uplands or any of the other bollocks phrases some folk seem so keen to sneer with, but generally for the lowest paid workers I think that there may be benefits for them not being pitted against folk that are prepared to work for lower wages and conditions. For most folk in the middle it will make very little difference, some extra forms for business and so on, which in time will level out and arrangements be made. Some companies may leave the UK cos of it, others will come cos of it.


----------



## philosophical (Aug 3, 2021)

The Theresa May arrangement would have meant the Irish border issue wouldn’t have been the problem it has become now.


----------



## bimble (Aug 3, 2021)

Time will tell, i don't know how they measure quality of life. Presumably the cost & availability of food factors into it somehow.


----------



## editor (Aug 3, 2021)

I predict what few gains there will be for those at the bottom will be temporary at best. Brexit was never about providing better pay and working conditions for the less well off and it seems daft to try and frame it that way. Actually, it was supposed to bring in untold millions to the NHS every month, but you would have a screw loose to believe that.

Meanwhile, I predict plenty of stinking rich pro-Brexit bosses will continue to remain rich with some doing very nicely thank you out of the whole farrago.


----------



## MickiQ (Aug 3, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> In the longer term, the plan seems to be to eliminate pesky humans from the work as much as possible, which probably would have happened with or without Brexit - the start-up costs involved will no doubt accelerate the trend toward mega-farms.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


For most companies the pesky humans are their biggest expense, so whilst wages may rise sharply in the short term, in the middle and longer terms. the bots are going to start looking more and more competitive.


----------



## bimble (Aug 3, 2021)

Because i've used my day well, I was reading earlier about how its really hard to devise a robot that can pick mushrooms.


----------



## teqniq (Aug 3, 2021)

According to this it's not looking very good:


----------



## bimble (Aug 3, 2021)

it is interesting that the government keep on saying no to these endless increasingly alarming pleas from the logistics people for special temp visas for hgv drivers same as they gave to farmers. I don't really get why they are doing that.


----------



## glitch hiker (Aug 3, 2021)

bimble said:


> it is interesting that the government keep on saying no to these endless increasingly alarming pleas from the logistics people for special temp visas for hgv drivers same as they gave to farmers. I don't really get why they are doing that.


Because it would make it look like Brexit was to blame and not lazy brits/johnny foreigner/the EU/Labour/Jeremy Corbyn/your mum


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 3, 2021)

teqniq said:


> According to this it's not looking very good:



What reasons is he saying are easily guessable ?


----------



## bimble (Aug 3, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> What reasons is he saying are easily guessable ?


Assume its to stave off panic buying?


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 3, 2021)

bimble said:


> it is interesting that the government keep on saying no to these endless increasingly alarming pleas from the logistics people for special temp visas for hgv drivers same as they gave to farmers. I don't really get why they are doing that.


Why should they ?


----------



## teqniq (Aug 3, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> What reasons is he saying are easily guessable ?


He isn't is he? But I would surmise that the abject timidity of the BBC when it could be seen to be criticising the government might be one.


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 3, 2021)

bimble said:


> Assume its to stave off panic buying?


Don’t recall the BBC playing that role in the great bog roll shortage


----------



## glitch hiker (Aug 3, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> For some people, yes. We have already seen truck drivers being offered more cash. Am not expecting sunlit uplands or any of the other bollocks phrases some folk seem so keen to sneer with, but generally for the lowest paid workers I think that there may be benefits for them not being pitted against folk that are prepared to work for lower wages and conditions. For most folk in the middle it will make very little difference, some extra forms for business and so on, which in time will level out and arrangements be made. Some companies may leave the UK cos of it, others will come cos of it.


Who do you think foots the bill for drivers getting more pay?

Also if one firm, say Aldi, pays more and poaches all the drivers, then you'd better hope you live near an Aldi and not one of the shops whose drivers they nicked!


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Aug 3, 2021)

glitch hiker said:


> Who do you think foots the bill for drivers getting more pay?
> 
> Also if one firm, say Aldi, pays more and poaches all the drivers, then you'd better hope you live near an Aldi and not one of the shops whose drivers they nicked!



A compelling argument for poverty wages


----------



## bimble (Aug 3, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Don’t recall the BBC playing that role in the great bog roll shortage


I don't really look at / read bbc. Did they go all in with the pictures of empty shelves back then but are not doing it now? idk.


----------



## bimble (Aug 3, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Why should they ?


Because if that interview is accurate and in a few weeks there'll be a proper crisis with our food supply people would be cross about it and the gov would look a bit silly then?
 I just don't get why they are doing it for farm work but not for drivers.


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 3, 2021)

teqniq said:


> He isn't is he? But I would surmise that the abject timidity of the BBC when it could be seen to be criticising the government might be one.


Yes phrased that wrong .


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 3, 2021)

teqniq said:


> According to this it's not looking very good:




The trouble with making claims like this is that when the the UK supply chain inevitably_ does not_ collapse in "two to three weeks", Richard Burnett's going to look like a bit of a tit. 

I've made a diary note for the 24th of August, "check if UK supply chain has collapsed".


----------



## Supine (Aug 3, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> The trouble with making claims like this is that when the the UK supply chain inevitably_ does not_ collapse in "two to three weeks", Richard Burnett's going to look like a bit of a tit.
> 
> I've made a diary note for the 24th of August, "check if UK supply chain has collapsed".



You keep on updating that diary, I’m going to keep making arrows for my bow. You’ll all be competition during this years mass hunger games and i’m getting ready to rumble


----------



## bimble (Aug 3, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> The trouble with making claims like this is that when the the UK supply chain inevitably_ does not_ collapse in "two to three weeks", Richard Burnett's going to look like a bit of a tit.
> 
> I've made a diary note for the 24th of August, "check if UK supply chain has collapsed".



Do you think he’s lying or just a fool ?
Idk what he means by collapsed, probably means a different thing to what you do though, which was pretty hardcore, like mass starvation type thing, which is quite a high bar.
Oh yeah.


Spymaster said:


> Give me a shout about "food shortages" when shops are genuinely empty


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 3, 2021)

Supine said:


> You keep on updating that diary, I’m going to keep making arrows for my bow. You’ll all be competition during this years mass hunger games and i’m getting ready to rumble


Spymaster will produce his shotgun and then we'll see if you're like a latter-day robin hood


----------



## bimble (Aug 3, 2021)

I had to buy dried rosemary instead of fresh today. Let the games begin.
But honestly it is a bit grim now going to either of my local supermarkets & has been for some time, never once seen them looking fully stocked for weeks. My both local towns are fairly small towns & I wonder if that has anything to do with it idk.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 3, 2021)

bimble said:


> I had to buy dried rosemary instead of fresh today. Let the games begin.


Is there something stopping you growing rosemary?


----------



## bimble (Aug 3, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Is there something stopping you growing rosemary?


I have a plant but it’s not very well ☹️. It went all yellow after it flowered.


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 3, 2021)

bimble said:


> Do you think he’s lying or just a fool ?
> Idk what he means by collapsed, probably means a different thing to what you do though, which was pretty hardcore, like mass starvation type thing, which is quite a high bar.
> Oh yeah.


Oh yeah, what? They're still nothing like genuinely empty and never will be. 

As far as Burnett is concerned, I've no idea. He's clearly not an unbiased source though so let's wait and see what the state of the supply chain actually is in 3 weeks.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 3, 2021)

bimble said:


> I have a plant but it’s not very well ☹️. It went all yellow after it flowered.


That's either stress or excess nitrogen in the soil


----------



## bimble (Aug 3, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Oh yeah, what? They're still nothing like genuinely empty and never will be.
> 
> As far as Burnett is concerned, I've no idea. He's clearly not an unbiased source though so let's wait and see what the state of the supply chain actually is in 3 weeks.


Give me a call when the shops are Genuinely Empty - was that a real thing that you actually meant to say like until then stop whining it’s all fine?
One unexpected boom industry post brexit is shit quality wafer thin trolls.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Aug 3, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> Much agricultural work is a non-starter for young British folk because it happens in the middle of nowhere and the day starts three hours before the first bus. Some picking work is good for transitory van-dwelling folk because they can just park up on the farm for six weeks or whatever but if you're a person with rent to pay on a non-portable residence then farm work is unlikely to add up. Universal credit also makes it harder than it once was to smooth out the feast-or-famine cycle of seasonal work.



I understand this is part of why so many applicants to the Pick for Britain bailed or more accurately were rejected. Few of them were willing to piss off to crappy dank rent-a-silos for 4 weeks solid picking. Plenty were willing to travel for 4-6 hours work but that's not how it works.


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 3, 2021)

bimble said:


> Give me a call when they are Genuinely Empty - was that a real thing that you actually meant to say like until then stop whining it’s all fine?



It was what it said. You were banging on about food shortages, I said there weren't any then and challenged you to let me know when they occurred. So far they haven't. I was right. Strange you quoting a post which proves me right and you wrong though. You're not supposed to do the internet like that!


----------



## bimble (Aug 3, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> It was what it said. You were banging on about food shortages, I said there weren't any then and challenged you to let me know when they occurred. So far they haven't. I was right. Strange you quoting a post which proves me right and you wrong though. You're not supposed to do the internet like that!


I see. there are no food shortages, or supply crises, until the shops in the UK are Genuinely Empty. Of all edible items. got it. 
Well thats a relief.


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 3, 2021)

bimble said:


> I see. there are no food shortages until the shops are Genuinely Empty. Of all edible items. got it.



Well that's what most normal people would consider "genuinely empty" to mean, but I'll be generous and give you another undeserved chance. Give me shout when the general population starts having the slightest difficulty feeding itself. Lack of petit pois or fois gras doesn't count


----------



## bimble (Aug 3, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Well that's what most normal people would consider "genuinely empty" to mean, but I'll be generous and give you another chance. Give me shout when the general population starts having the slightest difficulty feeding itself. Lack of petit pois or fois gras doesn't count


You're the idiot who brought up 'genuinely empty' as any sort of a criterion for when there might be a problem worth admittimg is a problem.
But i do see, Sufficient food to ensure that the population of the UK can feed itself, even if they cant get what they want they still have adequate calories = there are no issues at all here, brexit island is faring well. cool.


----------



## gosub (Aug 3, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Well that's what most normal people would consider "genuinely empty" to mean, but I'll be generous and give you another undeserved chance. Give me shout when the general population starts having the slightest difficulty feeding itself. Lack of petit pois or fois gras doesn't count



Might  end up like last year, when it took me a week to find ground almonds


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 3, 2021)

bimble said:


> You're the idiot who brought up 'genuinely empty' as any sort of a criterion for when there might be a problem worth admittimg is a problem.



Only in response to your silliness about impending food shortages that have never happened. You do agree that there have been no food shortages, right?


----------



## bimble (Aug 3, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Only in response to your silliness about impending food shortages that have never happened. You do agree that there have been no food shortages, right?


There have not been and are unlikely to be shortages of available calories to sustain the population.
Only shortages of specific items. People will buy what is available. They will not starve. That means everything is going great. yes.


----------



## Raheem (Aug 3, 2021)

bimble said:


> You're the idiot who brought up 'genuinely empty' as any sort of a criterion for when there might be a problem worth admittimg is a problem.
> But i do see, Sufficient food to ensure that the population of the UK can feed itself, even if they cant get what they want they still have adequate calories = there are no issues at all here, brexit island is faring well. cool.


I think I recall we were actually promised by Theresa May's government that there would be "adequate food". This was followed by a clarification that there would be this would apply for the vast majority of the population. So I think Spymaster has a valid point that, unless there is widespread malnutrition among people not in receipt of UC, Brexit will be perfectly on-track.


----------



## bimble (Aug 3, 2021)

Raheem said:


> I think I recall we were actually promised by Theresa May's government that there would be "adequate food". This was followed by a clarification that there would be this would apply for the vast majority of the population. So I think Spymaster has a valid point that, unless there is widespread malnutrition among people not in receipt of UC, Brexit will be perfectly on-track.


Yes. That was the reassurance about no deal brexit. Adequate food.


----------



## brogdale (Aug 3, 2021)

bimble said:


> There have not been and are unlikely to be shortages of available calories to sustain the population.
> Only shortages of specific items. People will buy what is available. They will not starve. That means everything is going great. yes.


Raab promised us "adequate food supplies".


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 3, 2021)

bimble said:


> Only shortages of specific items. People will buy what is available. They will not starve. That means everything is going great. yes.



Specific items like petit pois and Champagne? The thrust of your entire argument was, and has been since, that the UK is entering some grim chapter of shortages and darkness due to Brexit, whereas in reality, pretty much nothing that you and others here foresaw has come to pass so far!


----------



## bimble (Aug 3, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Specific items like petit pois and Champagne? The thrust of your entire argument was, and has been since, that the UK is entering some grim chapter of shortages and darkness due to Brexit, whereas in reality, pretty much nothing that you and others here foresaw has come to pass so far!


wafer thin trollery is boring. The exclamation mark is beneath even you.


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 3, 2021)

Are Sainsbury's still advertising on GB News?


----------



## Yossarian (Aug 3, 2021)

It was probably inevitable that this thread would see some argument about the definition of "food shortages." 

I doubt we'll ever see the shelves completely cleared of Pot Noodles, Uncle Ben's Rice etc., but it'd be time to start taking about shortages if there was a persistent lack of fresh fruit and veg.


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 3, 2021)

bimble said:


> wafer thin trollery is boring.



Oh, give over. Your Guardian fed hysteria over this has been ridiculous. Pointing that out isn't trolling.


----------



## gosub (Aug 3, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Raab promised us "adequate food supplies".


That was one of the things from last year that may well end up coming to bite people........giving thems that are in trouble a scotch egg will not mean they have been adequately fed


----------



## bimble (Aug 3, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Oh, give over. Your Guardian fed hysteria over this has been ridiculous. Pointing that out isn't trolling.


I am trying to help. You look a bit stupid with the thing of there's no issue until the shops are empty of all edible foods, thats all. If you are having fun do carry on obvs. 

I'm not particularly worried myself, I might stock up on the few things I really need (coffee beans, bubble bath, manchego etc) but the idea that this, chat about how to define a food shortage, is normal times in a normal rich country is kind of comical, with you as the joke.


----------



## editor (Aug 3, 2021)

teqniq said:


> According to this it's not looking very good:



Me and Tim are old buddies!


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 3, 2021)

bimble said:


> You look a bit stupid with the thing of there's no issue until the shops are empty of all food ...



But you're making that bit up! You're forgetting what you've quoted.


----------



## bimble (Aug 3, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Give me a shout about "food shortages" when shops are genuinely empty


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 3, 2021)

bimble said:


>



Ok. Now that doesn't say what you said it does does it?

Oooh! cheeky little edit there


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 3, 2021)

.


----------



## bimble (Aug 3, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Ok. Now that doesn't say what you said it does does it?


i don't know what you are trying to say.
Are you suggesting that it IS possible for food shortages to exist in a post brexit island without all of the shops being 'Genuinely Empty'?


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 3, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> It was probably inevitable that this thread would see some argument about the definition of "food shortages."
> 
> I doubt we'll ever see the shelves completely cleared of Pot Noodles, Uncle Ben's Rice etc., but it'd be time to start taking about shortages if there was a persistent lack of fresh fruit and veg.


At least you've had a go at answering the question about what 'food shortages' might look like. How are butchers, greengrocers, bakers smaller shops  etc doing or do posters only shop at supermarkets?


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 3, 2021)

bimble said:


> i don't know what you are trying to say.
> Are you suggesting that it IS possible for food shortages to exist in a post brexit island without all of the shops being Genuinely Empty?



You've realised _exactly_ the mistake you've made, which is why you just edited your post.  

Naughty, naughty.


----------



## bimble (Aug 3, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> At least you've had a go at answering the question about what 'food shortages' might look like. How are butchers, greengrocers, bakers smaller shops  etc doing or do posters only shop at supermarkets?


Oh sweet city boy . I can buy fray bentos at the post office but thats it, none of the above specialist retailers within many miles of here.


----------



## bimble (Aug 3, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> You've realised _exactly_ the mistake you've made, which is why you just edited your post.
> 
> Naughty, naughty.


what are you talking about ?


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 3, 2021)

bimble said:


> what are you talking about ?



Post #4829 previously quoted 2 of my posts. Now there's only one. 

Why did you edit out the other one?


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 3, 2021)

bimble said:


> Oh sweet city boy . I can buy fray bentos at the post office but thats it, none of the above specialist retailers within many miles of here.


Couldn't live like that tbh.


----------



## bimble (Aug 3, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Post #4829 previously quoted 2 of my posts. Now there's only one.
> 
> Why did you edit out the other one?


eh? i dont know . I just meant to quote the one that said GIVE ME A BELL WHEN THE SHOPS ARE EMPTY


----------



## bimble (Aug 3, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Couldn't live like that tbh.


i see. well people do, lots of us. It's called the countryside its great if you like that kind of thing.


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 3, 2021)

bimble said:


> eh? i dont know . I just meant to quote the one that said GIVE ME A BELL WHEN THE SHOPS ARE EMPTY



So your interpretation of me saying in response to you banging on about *food shortages, *"give me a shout when shops are genuinely empty", is me _actually_ saying 'there are no issues at all here, brexit island is faring well', is that what you're saying?


----------



## bimble (Aug 3, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> So your interpretation of me saying in response to you banging on about *food shortages, *"give me a shout when shops are genuinely empty", is me _actually_ saying 'there are no issues at all here, brexit island is faring well', is that what you're saying?


yes!
am i mistaken?
Do you now think there are brexit Issues with food supply in the UK ?
Astonishing.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Aug 3, 2021)

pressures on the NHS? give me a shout when the hospitals are full


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 3, 2021)

bimble said:


> i see. well people do, lots of us.





bimble said:


> i see. well people do, lots of us. It's called the countryside its great if you like that kind of thing.


Yes seen it .


----------



## bimble (Aug 3, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Yes seen it .


Can you walk around your large garden naked and singing really loudly and out of tune? If not, then your priorities (specialist retailers within a convenient distance presumably) are clearly different from mine.


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 3, 2021)

bimble said:


> yes!


Are you pissed?



> bimble said:
> 
> 
> > am i mistaken?


Yes.



> bimble said:
> 
> 
> > Do you think there are issues here as a result of brexit?



Of course. Travel and trade between the UK and EU just became marginally more complex, and of course, touring pop groups are feeling the pinch, but food shortages have not been a problem, nor will they be.

Edit> (You edited again)


----------



## bimble (Aug 3, 2021)

marginally more complex.
Plenty of calories tho.


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 3, 2021)

bimble said:


> marginally more complex.
> Plenty of calories tho.



Aha! You've answered my first question obliquely.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 3, 2021)

bimble said:


> I had to buy dried rosemary instead of fresh today. Let the games begin.
> But honestly it is a bit grim now going to either of my local supermarkets & has been for some time, never once seen them looking fully stocked for weeks. My both local towns are fairly small towns & I wonder if that has anything to do with it idk.



Rosemary grows everywhere I just nick it from other people's garden walls tbh.


----------



## bimble (Aug 3, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Aha! You've answered my first question obliquely.


You are correct on this one oblique point.


----------



## mojo pixy (Aug 3, 2021)

I can see mostly countryside from my front door, and I travel through miles of it to get to work. I walk in it with alarming frequency.

There are two greengrocers in the nearest town (population ~15k) plus I should add several places to buy fish.

The town also has two supermarkets (Morrisons and Lidl), and both still seem reasonably well stocked (edit: also a small Co-op, likewise currently replete) The other nearest towns all have a decent range of independent retailers, if you know where to look. Plus a dozen or more supermarkets between them, but I never use those so have no idea on their stock situation tbh.

We are by the sea though. Maybe we have smugglers again, but now they're working for Morrisons.

One thing about the countryside - there's plenty to forage from it, if things really went to shit. Bearing in mind most people don't know their Alexanders from their Hemlock  I think I'll carry on at the shops for a bit though.


----------



## bimble (Aug 3, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> Rosemary grows everywhere I just nick it from other people's garden walls tbh.


Other people's garden walls are not a thing here. I have to rely on my own ailing rosemary plant or tescos and neither are well.


----------



## Raheem (Aug 3, 2021)

I used to have a rosemary bush, but it got buried in snow and died. Natural causes, nothing to do with Brexit.


----------



## glitch hiker (Aug 3, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> The trouble with making claims like this is that when the the UK supply chain inevitably_ does not_ collapse in "two to three weeks", Richard Burnett's going to look like a bit of a tit.
> 
> I've made a diary note for the 24th of August, "check if UK supply chain has collapsed".


It's probably worth a moment of twitter related embarassment to highlight credible claims that if true would prove molten


----------



## MrSki (Aug 3, 2021)

So is anyone willing to post how their lives have improved by Brexit? We are 7 months into it & can anyone claim a benefit yet? Or do we have to wait 50 odd years?


----------



## Badgers (Aug 3, 2021)

MrSki said:


> Or do we have to wait 50 odd years?


Only 40-50 ish


----------



## bimble (Aug 3, 2021)

MrSki said:


> So is anyone willing to post how their lives have improved by Brexit? We are 7 months into it & can anyone claim a benefit yet? Or do we have to wait 50 odd years?


I am not a lorry driver so i have nothing.


----------



## Raheem (Aug 3, 2021)

Presumably you can take it slightly easier if you're a shelf-stacker.


----------



## two sheds (Aug 3, 2021)

Raheem said:


> I used to have a rosemary bush, but it got buried in snow and died. Natural causes, nothing to do with Brexit.


You're just in denial


----------



## MrSki (Aug 3, 2021)

bimble said:


> I am not a lorry driver so i have nothing.


Not yet?


----------



## bimble (Aug 3, 2021)

MrSki said:


> Not yet?


yes still waiting for my brexit dividend.


----------



## Badgers (Aug 3, 2021)

bimble said:


> yes still waiting for my brexit dividend.


Keep us posted on this ¬


----------



## bimble (Aug 3, 2021)

will do. Anytime soon in the next 40 - 50 years soon as i observe that my quality of life has been improved by the brexit i shall report back immediately. I think i'll emigrate beforehand though tbh, before the fruits fully become apparent.


----------



## Raheem (Aug 3, 2021)

So not only do they want to see benefits from Brexit, now they want to see them within the next 60 years. Typical, predictable goalpost-shifting.


----------



## Supine (Aug 3, 2021)

MrSki said:


> So is anyone willing to post how their lives have improved by Brexit? We are 7 months into it & can anyone claim a benefit yet? Or do we have to wait 50 odd years?



I feel fantastic now that I’m not being suppressed by the evil eu supra-state. Its much nicer only being suppressed by a bunch of english etonians.


----------



## brogdale (Aug 3, 2021)

#OvenReady still available all over GB....


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Aug 3, 2021)

One supermarket offered people a couple of quid more per hour to drive their lorries, that's a benefit.  Now we're free from the shackles of Europe we can do things like form unions, collectively bargain, and get pay rises, things never before seen on these islands.


----------



## Ax^ (Aug 3, 2021)

_shags a flag_

did they includework rights in the exit bill..


----------



## Smangus (Aug 3, 2021)

bimble said:


> yes still waiting for my brexit dividend.



Plenty of Brexit bellends about if you look. 🙂


----------



## Colin Hunt (Aug 3, 2021)

Doctor Carrot said:


> One supermarket offered people a couple of quid more per hour to drive their lorries, that's a benefit.  Now we're free from the shackles of Europe we can do things like form unions, collectively bargain, and get pay rises, things never before seen on these islands.


In all fairness, the EU was not a paragon of workers rights. Particularly not the right to collectively bargain, which it systematically worked against in order to secure its four freedoms. Just because this country is a neoliberal hellscape for trade unions doesn't mean that the EU is any better.


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 3, 2021)

Doctor Carrot said:


> One supermarket offered people a couple of quid more per hour to drive their lorries, that's a benefit.  Now we're free from the shackles of Europe we can do things like form unions, collectively bargain, and get pay rises, things never before seen on these islands.


You'll be pleased to know that Unite drivers at Tesco’s Booker wholesale division have just  got a £5-an-hour pay rise and there are plans for a stay ay home day by some 3000 drivers on August 23rd.


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 3, 2021)

bimble said:


> will do. Anytime soon in the next 40 - 50 years soon as i observe that my quality of life has been improved by the brexit i shall report back immediately. I think i'll emigrate beforehand though tbh, before the fruits fully become apparent.


The Brexit brain drain begins


----------



## Raheem (Aug 4, 2021)

Colin Hunt said:


> In all fairness, the EU was not a paragon of workers rights. Particularly not the right to collectively bargain, which it systematically worked against in order to secure its four freedoms. Just because this country is a neoliberal hellscape for trade unions doesn't mean that the EU is any better.


I'd be interested in more on how the EU systematically worked against collective bargaining rights. I'm not saying it isn't true, but it is a relative question, and when you look at the massive gap between the UK and certain EU countries in terms of the proportion of workplaces covered by CB, it does seem a counterintuitive statement.


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Aug 4, 2021)

Colin Hunt said:


> In all fairness, the EU was not a paragon of workers rights. Particularly not the right to collectively bargain, which it systematically worked against in order to secure its four freedoms. Just because this country is a neoliberal hellscape for trade unions doesn't mean that the EU is any better.


I didn't say it was any better but I'm still yet to see this sudden new surge of collective bargaining and huge pay rises across the board. Particularly when large sections of the working class just handed a massive majority to a party that opposes these interests.


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Aug 4, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> You'll be pleased to know that Unite drivers at Tesco’s Booker wholesale division have just  got a £5-an-hour pay rise and there are plans for a stay ay home day by some 3000 drivers on August 23rd.


Great, and this was unable to happen while the UK was in the EU because?


----------



## krtek a houby (Aug 4, 2021)

philosophical said:


> The Theresa May arrangement would have meant the Irish border issue wouldn’t have been the problem it has become now.



A British border imposed on the people of Ireland.


----------



## krtek a houby (Aug 4, 2021)

bimble said:


> Do you think standard of living for most people in the UK will improve as a result of brexit?



Of course. Maybe not for the poor migrants from poor nations,  but they can just switch jobs, as was suggested upthread. Or was that just the bosses?


----------



## Badgers (Aug 4, 2021)

More Liberal lies from the Guardian  

They are ignoring all the many benefits of Brexit and focusing on project fear 









						Tuesday briefing: Brexit and Covid shortages ‘to get worse’
					

Lack of HGV drivers blamed for gaps on shelves … Johnson drops plans for amber travel watchlist … and how cannabis could tackle brain tumours




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 4, 2021)

Badgers said:


> More Liberal lies from the Guardian
> 
> They are ignoring all the many benefits of Brexit and focusing on project fear
> 
> ...


A paper always best summed up by


----------



## krtek a houby (Aug 4, 2021)

Badgers said:


> More Liberal lies from the Guardian
> 
> They are ignoring all the many benefits of Brexit and focusing on project fear
> 
> ...



Nobody reads the guardian anyway


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 4, 2021)

Doctor Carrot said:


> Great, and this was unable to happen while the UK was in the EU because?


Isn't the more important question as to why these wage rises for drivers, and in the hospitality industry  have happened?


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 4, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> Nobody reads the guardian anyway


I've probably read more Guardian articles since Brexit ( through people posting them on here) than I have in my lifetime to be honest.


----------



## Badgers (Aug 4, 2021)

Should stick to the Telegraph for real unbiased journalism


----------



## ska invita (Aug 4, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Should stick to the Telegraph for real unbiased journalism


...where class consciousness lives


----------



## Chilli.s (Aug 4, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> Nobody reads the guardian anyway


Nobody reads papers anyway


----------



## brogdale (Aug 4, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Isn't the more important question as to why these wage rises for drivers, and in the hospitality industry  have happened?


That's a fair point, and one that was addressed in the R4 'Briefing Room' programme I linked to in the other Brexit thread.

But, if we are going to argue the merits of withdrawal on the utilitarian basis of the benefits to working people from a reform of our trading status, then it's only reasonable to explore the potential/actual/emerging disbenefits resulting from the withdrawal from the political union.

One of the enduring tragedies of Brexit discussion is the almost religious faith that the respective sides had/have the ability of either outcome to further the interests of working people in the UK, and the tendency for that to blinker the wider, ongoing, secular, structural undermining of the social contract and living standards of our class by neoliberal capital and their state actors.

No-one involved in the ideological construct that resulted in withdrawal had any intention of reversing the regressive trajectory of the last 45 years, and any temporary sectoral gains are likely to be just that, until capital can once again rig the labour market in its favour.


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 4, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Should stick to the Telegraph for real unbiased journalism


Actually, Matt Law is usually spot on in the Telegraph about most things to do with Chelsea.


----------



## Yossarian (Aug 4, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Isn't the more important question as to why these wage rises for drivers, and in the hospitality industry  have happened?



Could also ask why wage growth in Britain lagged so far behind almost every other EU country in the decade before Brexit despite low unemployment - and since wage rises have failed to lure back hundreds of thousands of EU citizens with settled status who left during COVID, whether it is continuing to do so.


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Aug 4, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Isn't the more important question as to why these wage rises for drivers, and in the hospitality industry  have happened?


People in hospitality now earn a bit more but still less than hospitality workers working in countries that remain in the EU. Woo hoo.

Any wage rises in low income jobs are always met with benefits cuts further down the line. In many cases this leaves workers worse off than if the pay rise hadn't happened in the first place.


----------



## philosophical (Aug 4, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> A British border imposed on the people of Ireland.



Absolutely.
However the referendum was about the UK leaving the EU.
A United Ireland was not specified on the ballot paper.
Theresa May had a bad deal semi arranged that tried to deal with the absurdity of the British imposed border.
What seems to be the arrangement now is a dangerous mess.
I believe those who voted Brexit if the border entered their thoughts at the time or subsequently now hope to enact the ‘hope the problem melts away/turn a blind eye solution.
It won’t work.


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 4, 2021)

Doctor Carrot said:


> People in hospitality now earn a bit more but still less than hospitality workers working in countries that remain in the EU.



Are you sure about this? 

Which "hospitality workers" in which EU countries?


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Aug 4, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Are you sure about this?
> 
> Which "hospitality workers" in which EU countries?


My mistake, it was to do with salary increases. 

UK hospitality workers ‘falling behind’ with pay rises, report finds - Hotel Owner 

If we are actually ahead of everyone else in the EU for hospitality salaries (I had France and Ireland in mind for my original post) then that happened whilst we were in the EU.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 4, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Are you sure about this?
> 
> Which "hospitality workers" in which EU countries?


Depends on how hospitable they are no doubt


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 4, 2021)

Doctor Carrot said:


> People in hospitality now earn a bit more but still less than hospitality workers working in countries that remain in the EU. Woo hoo.
> 
> Any wage rises in low income jobs are always met with benefits cuts further down the line. In many cases this leaves workers worse off than if the pay rise hadn't happened in the first place.


Given the fact that hospitality across Europe and the UK is at best minimum wage industry, ( and very often poorly regulated and open to cash in hand and no contracts)  and given the fact that the Portuguese minimum wage is half of that in the UK I very much doubt that.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 4, 2021)

Doctor Carrot said:


> My mistake, it was to do with salary increases.
> 
> UK hospitality workers ‘falling behind’ with pay rises, report finds - Hotel Owner
> 
> If we are actually ahead of everyone else in the EU for hospitality salaries (I had France and Ireland in mind for my original post) then that happened whilst we were in the EU.


Your EU countries suggested hw in say Bulgaria and Romania paid more than their counterparts in UK. Say what you mean and mean what you say!


----------



## MrSki (Aug 4, 2021)

One way to stop empty shelves.


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 4, 2021)

MrSki said:


> One way to stop empty shelves.


Supermarkets moving or rearranging aisles during the night to cover up shortages, staff being briefed ( with the threat of dismissal) not to mention Brexit  and the Category D notice issued to the BBC not to mention Brexit and shortages in the same sentence are very worrying developments.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 4, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Supermarkets moving or rearranging aisles during the night to cover up shortages, staff being briefed ( with the threat of dismissal) not to mention Brexit  and the Category D notice issued to the BBC not to mention Brexit and shortages in the same sentence are very worrying developments.


I have never heard of a category d notice. I suppose this is just a d notice to cover something up.


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 4, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> I have never heard of a category d notice. I suppose this is just a d notice to cover something up.


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Aug 4, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Your EU countries suggested hw in say Bulgaria and Romania paid more than their counterparts in UK. Say what you mean and mean what you say!



The article I linked to mentions neither country.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 4, 2021)

Doctor Carrot said:


> People in hospitality now earn a bit more but still less than hospitality workers working in countries that remain in the EU. Woo hoo.
> 
> Any wage rises in low income jobs are always met with benefits cuts further down the line. In many cases this leaves workers worse off than if the pay rise hadn't happened in the first place.


Where is this imaginary article?


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Aug 4, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Given the fact that hospitality across Europe and the UK is at best minimum wage industry, ( and very often poorly regulated and open to cash in hand and no contracts)  and given the fact that the Portuguese minimum wage is half of that in the UK I very much doubt that.


I was talking about wage increases rather than actual pay. You might doubt it and you might back that doubt up by mentioning Portugal but it would be interesting to see data on it.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 4, 2021)

Doctor Carrot said:


> The article I linked to mentions neither country.


Yeh this would be the article whose existence you have just made up


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Aug 4, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Where is this imaginary article?


Wow, you might wanna get your eyes tested, pal. It's in the quote you quoted.


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Aug 4, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Yeh this would be the article whose existence you have just made up


 it's right there in your quoting of my post.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 4, 2021)

Doctor Carrot said:


> Wow, you might wanna get your eyes tested, pal. It's in the quote you quoted.


Your post 4889, pre- and post-edit, where you made the claim about higher hw pay in the EU, contains and contained no link. While I quoted your later contribution my post obvs a comment on 4889. And only a turd edits a post to change it completely after it's been quoted


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Aug 4, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Your post 4889, pre- and post-edit, where you made the claim about higher hw pay in the EU, contains and contained no link. While I quoted your later article my post obvs a comment on 4889. And only a turd edits a post to change it completely after it's been quoted


Nah fuck you, dick head. I posted that link ages ago. It's not my fault you spend so much time staring at a screen you've now gone bonk eyed and can't see what's right in front of your face. No wonder you're the most ignored poster on here.


----------



## Yossarian (Aug 4, 2021)

The hospitality industry across Europe is seeing massive shortfalls of workers as things open up a little more - a lot of people changed jobs during the pandemic and workers say it will take big changes to the industry's notoriously shit wages and conditions for them to return, while business groups etc. argue that COVID-era benefits need to be cut a lot more aggressively. AFAIK only one country is arguing that it shows the success of anti-immigration policies.


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 4, 2021)

Doctor Carrot said:


> I was talking about wage increases rather than actual pay. You might doubt it and you might back that doubt up by mentioning Portugal but it would be interesting to see data on it.


see data on what?


----------



## Loose meat (Aug 4, 2021)

The truth?

Almost no one cares about NI outside of NI. Some might pay lip-service, most just don't care. And what's more, the birth rate of the respective groups means a referendum is only a matter of time, and a united Ireland is only a matter of time. It's literally the definitive 'whatever' issue, treated as important by the empty shelf photographers cos they don't have much else. Literally they're reduced to moaning about a bus slogan at a referendum and 2 general elections ago, and putting up doctored photos. Oh, and won't someone think of NI. LOL. Fuck off.


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Aug 4, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> see data on what?


The actual pay rates. I'm not arguing they're not shit I'm arguing against the idea that brexit and brexit alone has produced better pay and conditions for workers. Particularly when better pay rises exist for countries that I've apparently made up and didn't even mention.


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Aug 4, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> The truth?
> 
> Almost no one cares about NI outside of NI. Some might pay lip-service, most just don't care. And what's more, the birth rate of the respective groups means a referendum is only a matter of time, and a united Ireland is only a matter of time. It's literally the definitive 'whatever' issue, treated as important by the empty shelf photographers cos they don't have much else. Literally they're reduced to moaning about a bus slogan at a referendum and 2 general elections ago, and putting up doctored photos. Oh, and won't someone think of NI. LOL. Fuck off.


Oh thank god you're here again.


----------



## Loose meat (Aug 4, 2021)

Doctor Carrot said:


> My mistake, it was to do with salary increases.



LOL. Remainer jungle clearing dwellers; same as it ever was.


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 4, 2021)

Doctor Carrot said:


> The actual pay rates. I'm not arguing they're not shit I'm arguing against the idea that brexit and brexit alone has produced better pay and conditions for workers. Particularly when better pay rises exist for countries that I've apparently made up and didn't even mention.


I'm sure the  Hotel Owner publication which you are familiar with has the data .


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Aug 4, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> LOL. Remainer jungle clearing dwellers; same as it ever was.


Good tune that. LTJ Bukem wasn't it? 1995?


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 4, 2021)

Doctor Carrot said:


> Nah fuck you, dick head. I posted that link ages ago. It's not my fault you spend so much time staring at a screen you've now gone bonk eyed and can't see what's right in front of your face. No wonder you're the most ignored poster on here.


your post 4889 made the claim about higher wages for hospitality workers in the eu

your post with the link is where you say you're sorry, you didn't know what you were talking about

my post says your claim about higher wages for hw in eu countries suggested higher wages in romania and bulgaria. as the content of your post quoted talks about higher wages rises rather than higher wages it's obvious to anyone but a fuckwit i'm referring back to where you made the claim about higher wages. 

and that post does not now nor did it ever contain a link. 

this exchange of posts did not need to happen. you've dragged it out beyond all reasonable endurance. and it's best if it's left to lie now and not be continued further.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 4, 2021)

Doctor Carrot said:


> The actual pay rates. I'm not arguing they're not shit I'm arguing against the idea that brexit and brexit alone has produced better pay and conditions for workers. Particularly when better pay rises exist for countries that I've apparently made up and didn't even mention.


jesus mary and joseph

no one's said you made up countries.


----------



## Idris2002 (Aug 4, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> Yeah, but the word "Fenian" tastes bitter.
> 
> Even in jest.


"There were people from Cork city who were loyal true and faithful,
Who brought home the fenian prisoners from dying in foreign nations"

Not really feeling the bitterness there.


----------



## Loose meat (Aug 4, 2021)

Having just returned from Morrison's in Camberwell. I can report on the scale of the Brexit catastrophe:

Wild rocket - down to 59p from 99p, with 4 trays also stacked on the floor
Mixed salad - down from £1.29p to 99p
Vine-ripened toms, down from £1.29p to 79p

etc, etc. More fruit and veg discounted than not.

I would encourage those local people not yet gone to the south American jungle to take advantage of the larger discounts available locally on fruit and veg.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 4, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> Yeah, but the word "Fenian" tastes bitter.
> 
> Even in jest.


Romantic Ireland's dead and gone
It's with O'Leary in the grave


----------



## gosub (Aug 4, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> jesus mary and joseph
> 
> no one's said you made up countries.


Well somebody has to be responsible for "France"


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Aug 4, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> Having just returned from Morrison's in Camberwell. I can report on the scale of the Brexit catastrophe:
> 
> Wild rocket - down to 59p from 99p, with 4 trays also stacked on the floor
> Mixed salad - down from £1.29p to 99p
> ...



Ah yes, this was a rich period for Goldie. He went really experimental, way more than he did on Saturnz Return. It was a step too far for many junglists but the way he fused Brazilian samba with the Amen on 'Rocket to the Floor part 3' was truly sublime.


----------



## andysays (Aug 4, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> I have never heard of a category d notice. I suppose this is just a d notice to cover something up.


The first rule of category D...


----------



## Loose meat (Aug 4, 2021)

Perhaps  the D stands for 'discount' i.e. my experience this morning in a south London supermarket.


----------



## mojo pixy (Aug 4, 2021)

How quickly did our lives start to be improved by joining the EEC (CM or whatever)? I'd be tempted to give it at least that long before I expect life for all to improve via Brexit.

(There was a point to this, which I just posted accidentally because unposted text gets saved, annoyingly. But it's pages ago now so never mind)


----------



## gosub (Aug 4, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> I have never heard of a category d notice. I suppose this is just a d notice to cover something up.


 Somebody is in trouble. Brexit: Vegetable producer says labour shortage means food is being thrown away


----------



## bimble (Aug 4, 2021)

We surely can't judge the full benefits at least until we actually do a full brexit, which wont be until sometime next year. 








						UK forced to delay checks on imports from EU by six months
					

Introduction postponed until 2022 because border post infrastructure will not be ready in time




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## gosub (Aug 4, 2021)

mojo pixy said:


> How quickly did our lives start to be improved by joining the EEC (CM or whatever)? I'd be tempted to give it at least that long before I expect life for all to improve via Brexit.
> 
> (There was a point to this, which I just posted accidentally because unposted text gets saved, annoyingly. But it's pages ago now so never mind)


They did n't get rid of it's a knockout til 2001


----------



## Loose meat (Aug 4, 2021)

gosub said:


> Somebody is in trouble. Brexit: Vegetable producer says labour shortage means food is being thrown away



The BBC are so embarrassed no one will even put their name on that 'story'. Literally no one will own up to it.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 4, 2021)

gosub said:


> Somebody is in trouble. Brexit: Vegetable producer says labour shortage means food is being thrown away


I wonder if they're related to the Alfred g Pearce here Vegetable firm which grossly polluted waterway agrees to give £12,000 to environmental charity


----------



## Ax^ (Aug 4, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> The truth?
> 
> Almost no one cares about NI outside of NI. Some might pay lip-service, most just don't care. And what's more, the birth rate of the respective groups means a referendum is only a matter of time, and a united Ireland is only a matter of time. It's literally the definitive 'whatever' issue, treated as important by the empty shelf photographers cos they don't have much else. Literally they're reduced to moaning about a bus slogan at a referendum and 2 general elections ago, and putting up doctored photos. Oh, and won't someone think of NI. LOL. Fuck off.



so much for the brexit being about British sovereignty



with logic like that they should just break up the union and be done with it


----------



## gosub (Aug 4, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> The BBC are so embarrassed no one will even put their name on that 'story'. Literally no one will own up to it.


Hadn't noticed that. A bit odd


----------



## two sheds (Aug 4, 2021)

Look at this. Ever Given: Cargo unloaded from ship that blocked Suez Canal

The BBC are so embarrassed no one will even put their name on that 'story'. Literally no one will own up to it.


----------



## Loose meat (Aug 4, 2021)

Rule of thumb: It's not a bad idea to look at who is asking you to accept what.


----------



## two sheds (Aug 4, 2021)

Indeed.


----------



## gosub (Aug 4, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Look at this. Ever Given: Cargo unloaded from ship that blocked Suez Canal
> 
> The BBC are so embarrassed no one will even put their name on that 'story'. Literally no one will own up to it.


"Goods in the Ever Given's 18,000 total containers have an estimated value of $775m, but many of them will hold fruit and vegetables which will have to be destroyed, having passed their use-by date."    Possibly the same journo.  Must be shy


----------



## andysays (Aug 4, 2021)

gosub said:


> "Goods in the Ever Given's 18,000 total containers have an estimated value of $775m, but many of them will hold fruit and vegetables which will have to be destroyed, having passed their use-by date."    Possibly the same journo.  Must be shy


I'm a bit sceptical about the idea that fruit and vegetables are routinely transported around the world in containers on ships, TBH


----------



## Loose meat (Aug 4, 2021)

Given it's the BBC, most of the staff are in Italy or France for the month. Could easily be a summer intern, supervised by a freelancer.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 4, 2021)

gosub said:


> Hadn't noticed that. A bit odd


They generally don't have bylines on BBC news stories unless it's by one of the more prominent correspondents


----------



## bimble (Aug 4, 2021)

andysays said:


> I'm a bit sceptical about the idea that fruit and vegetables are routinely transported around the world in containers on ships, TBH


seriously? how do you think we get our fruit and veg from faraway lands?


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 4, 2021)

.


----------



## Ax^ (Aug 4, 2021)

andysays said:


> I'm a bit sceptical about the idea that fruit and vegetables are routinely transported around the world in containers on ships, TBH


you put them on planes as well 

also the have designed packaging to stop the fruit from riping before final delivery when shipping by sea


----------



## gosub (Aug 4, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> They generally don't have bylines on BBC news stories unless it's by one of the more prominent correspondents


Looked at it same as you. Clicked on a few on the beeb sitte (most did).  Also google news'd the company to see who else was covering same as you


----------



## andysays (Aug 4, 2021)

bimble said:


> seriously? how do you think we get our fruit and veg from faraway lands?


Personally, I don't get my fruit and veg from faraway lands.

I either grow it myself or buy seasonally appropriate stuff which has been grown in Britain or, at a push, elsewhere in Europe. 

As I understand it, perishable goods like fresh fruit and vegetables are generally transported by air, because spending weeks in a container would lead to them routinely being rotten on arrival.


----------



## editor (Aug 4, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> Having just returned from Morrison's in Camberwell. I can report on the scale of the Brexit catastrophe:
> 
> Wild rocket - down to 59p from 99p, with 4 trays also stacked on the floor
> Mixed salad - down from £1.29p to 99p
> ...


Yeah it's going brilliantly, all round.









						Brexit: Vegetable producer says labour shortage means food is being thrown away
					

Vegetable producer Alfred G Pearce said it was operating at 70% of its labour capacity.



					www.bbc.co.uk
				




I'm still waiting for you to list al the the wonderful benefits that Brexit has brought to the touring music industry, in particular to the smaller bands who are now unable to make money in Europe.


----------



## bimble (Aug 4, 2021)

andysays said:


> Personally, I don't get my fruit and veg from faraway lands.
> 
> I either grow it myself or buy seasonally appropriate stuff which has been grown in Britain or, at a push, elsewhere in Europe.
> 
> As I understand it, perishable goods like fresh fruit and vegetables are generally transported by air, because spending weeks in a container would lead to them routinely being rotten on arrival.


That’s nice. You are mistaken about the airplanes though.








						Very little of global food is transported by air; this greatly reduces the climate benefits of eating local
					

Transporting food by plane can come with a large carbon footprint. But very little of our food travels this way – just 0.16% of food miles are from air travel.




					ourworldindata.org


----------



## gosub (Aug 4, 2021)

andysays said:


> Personally, I don't get my fruit and veg from faraway lands.
> 
> I either grow it myself or buy seasonally appropriate stuff which has been grown in Britain or, at a push, elsewhere in Europe.
> 
> As I understand it, perishable goods like fresh fruit and vegetables are generally transported by air, because spending weeks in a container would lead to them routinely being rotten on arrival.


Depends on the crop.  Bananas they ripen on the boat, potatoes just keep dark, ..


----------



## andysays (Aug 4, 2021)

bimble said:


> That’s nice. You are mistaken about the airplanes though.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So do you have any figures for the amount of fresh fruit and veg shipped around the world (rather than eg from one part of Europe to another), because, as I said, I imagine that it's not something which actually happens that much.


----------



## Loose meat (Aug 4, 2021)

editor said:


> Yeah it's going brilliantly, all round.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Here's a clue, in the era of the Internet and self-promo, they are "small" for a reason. Meanwhile, *four and a half thousand more jobs announced this week *for creatives >>>>









						Hollywood comes to Hertfordshire with plans for £700m film and TV studios | ITV News
					

Sunset Studios has hosted major small and big screen hits including When Harry Met Sally, La La Land and numerous Academy Award winning films. | ITV News London




					www.itv.com


----------



## bimble (Aug 4, 2021)

andysays said:


> So do you have any figures for the amount of fresh fruit and veg shipped around the world (rather than eg from one part of Europe to another), because, as I said, I imagine that it's not something which actually happens that much.


I’m in a crap internet place now I might try to assist you later.


----------



## editor (Aug 4, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> Here's a clue, in the era of the Internet and self-promo, they are "small" for a reason. Meanwhile, *four and a half thousand jobs announced this week *for creatives >>>>
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That has *absolutely nothing* to do with the touring music industry, or small bands who are now unable to make money in Europe because of fucking Brexit.

If you haven't got a relevant answer it might be easier just to say nothing.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 4, 2021)

gosub said:


> Looked at it same as you. Clicked on a few on the beeb sitte (most did).  Also google news'd the company to see who else was covering same as you


Don't just take my word for it, the professional press have noticed too Most major news websites give reporters a byline, so why doesn’t the BBC?


----------



## gosub (Aug 4, 2021)

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/57a08ba940f0b652dd000df8/60506-fp12.pdf
		


Stuff from Africa is largely airfreighted


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 4, 2021)

editor said:


> That has *absolutely nothing* to do with the touring music industry, or small bands who are now unable to make money in Europe because of fucking Brexit.
> 
> If you haven't got a relevant answer it might be easier just to say nothing.


Tbh his posts are a masterclass on the auld Irish warning 'whatever you say say nothing'


----------



## Loose meat (Aug 4, 2021)

Becaus the BBC puts up infantile Remain propaganda, and they hate getting called on it.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 4, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> Becaus the BBC puts up infantile Remain propaganda, and they hate getting called on it.


You've obviously dropped an e


----------



## Loose meat (Aug 4, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Tbh his posts are a masterclass



You're too kind.


----------



## two sheds (Aug 4, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> They generally don't have bylines on BBC news stories unless it's by one of the more prominent correspondents


Quite, I'd imagine they get a lot of their stories from Reuters or press releases from someone.


----------



## Loose meat (Aug 4, 2021)

If they do, they give credit somewhere on that page.


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 4, 2021)

bimble said:


> I’m in a crap internet place now I might try to assist you later.


Not Brexit related I hope


----------



## andysays (Aug 4, 2021)

bimble said:


> I’m in a crap internet place now I might try to assist you later.


OK. Having now read the full article, the ship in question apparently transports containers between Asia and Europe.

I realise I didn't specify this originally,  but I would be interested to see how much fresh fruit and veg comes from Asia to Europe by (unrefridgerated) container as this story appears to suggest, because the risks of it perishing are obvious, even if the ship doesn't get stuck in the Suez canal.


----------



## gosub (Aug 4, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Quite, I'd imagine they get a lot of their stories from Reuters or press releases from someone.


Not the one were talking about, came out of Norwich office


----------



## gosub (Aug 4, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> Becaus the BBC puts up infantile Remain propaganda, and they hate getting called on it.



201`6.  COME IN! Your time is up.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 4, 2021)

gosub said:


> Looked at it same as you. Clicked on a few on the beeb sitte (most did).  Also google news'd the company to see who else was covering same as you


Here's what the BBC actually say on the matter










						Learn how the BBC is working to strengthen trust and transparency in online news - BBC News
					

Identifying credible journalism on the internet can be a confusing experience - this is why we are making greater efforts to explain what type of information you are reading or watching on our site.




					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## two sheds (Aug 4, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> If they do, they give credit somewhere on that page.


Well you thought that literally nobody putting their name on a BBC story was significant so pardon me if I continue not to believe literally anything you say without proof.


----------



## andysays (Aug 4, 2021)

gosub said:


> https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/57a08ba940f0b652dd000df8/60506-fp12.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> Stuff from Africa is largely airfreighted


That's what I thought.


----------



## two sheds (Aug 4, 2021)

I find that surprising - not that I'd thought much about it but I'd have assumed refrigerated containers on ships.


----------



## Loose meat (Aug 4, 2021)

editor said:


> That has *absolutely nothing* to do with the touring music industry, or small bands who are now unable to make money in Europe because of fucking Brexit.
> 
> If you haven't got a relevant answer it might be easier just to say nothing.



I just gave a link to 4, 500 creative jobs. If they're making decent music, put it ONLINE. Beter that than some hole in a Berlin backstreet with 40 drunk locals.

Four and a half thousand creative jobs - this week.


----------



## krtek a houby (Aug 4, 2021)

Idris2002 said:


> "There were people from Cork city who were loyal true and faithful,
> Who brought home the fenian prisoners from dying in foreign nations"
> 
> Not really feeling the bitterness there.



Well, quite. Obviously depends on context.


----------



## krtek a houby (Aug 4, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> Given it's the BBC, most of the staff are in Italy or France for the month. Could easily be a summer intern, supervised by a freelancer.



Most of the staff are behind the scenes, and not on telly/radio etc. They are IT, postroom staff, cleaners, porters, drivers, librarians, technicians, kitchen staff, electricians, engineers. They don't get to take a month off.


----------



## gosub (Aug 4, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Here's what the BBC actually say on the matter
> View attachment 282033
> 
> 
> ...


So in this instance its coz its been spliced with pumpkin weed story


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Aug 4, 2021)

two sheds said:


> I find that surprising - not that I'd thought much about it but I'd have assumed refrigerated containers on ships.




There are, mostly frozen meat. Known in the trade as reefers. Not spliffs.


----------



## Loose meat (Aug 4, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> Most of the staff are behind the scenes, and not on telly/radio etc. They are IT, postroom staff, cleaners, porters, drivers, librarians, technicians, kitchen staff, electricians, engineers. They don't get to take a month off.



Who knew. Like I was talking about the postroom.


----------



## editor (Aug 4, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> I just gave a link to 4, 500 creative jobs. If they're making decent music, put it ONLINE. Beter that than some hole in a Berlin backstreet with 40 drunk locals.


You really have no answer to the question, do you, and your  ongoing blustering is becoming  positively embarrassing to witness. 

When you really don't know what you're talking about, it's always a good idea to shut the fuck up.



Loose meat said:


> Four and a half thousand creative jobs - this week.


No, no this week. Not this month. Or even this year. They are 'plans' and 'proposals.'


----------



## krtek a houby (Aug 4, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> Who knew. Like I was talking about the postroom.



Yeah, maybe when you refer to the BBC and say "most of the staff", you don't actually mean "most of the staff".

Easy mistake to make.


----------



## glitch hiker (Aug 4, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> Here's a clue, in the era of the Internet and self-promo, they are "small" for a reason. Meanwhile, *four and a half thousand more jobs announced this week *for creatives >>>>
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What does that have to do with musicians touring Europe?


----------



## editor (Aug 4, 2021)

glitch hiker said:


> What does that have to do with musicians touring Europe?


I can't work out if he's desperately trolling or just plain thick.


----------



## Ax^ (Aug 4, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> Given it's the BBC, most of the staff are in Italy or France for the month. Could easily be a summer intern, supervised by a freelancer.



you know Andrew Neil now work at GB news right

when he not fucking about in France


----------



## Badgers (Aug 4, 2021)




----------



## Saul Goodman (Aug 4, 2021)

Badgers said:


> View attachment 282056


That's your kitchen cupboard 🤣


----------



## Loose meat (Aug 4, 2021)

Printing their own stickers now, cos it makes it so real. 

Go to Morrisons - I picked up plenty of discounts on the fruit and veg this morning.


----------



## two sheds (Aug 4, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> Printing their own stickers now, cos it makes it so real.
> 
> Go to Morrisons - I picked up plenty of discounts on the fruit and veg this morning.


Claiming it got plenty of discounts, cos it makes it so real.


----------



## krtek a houby (Aug 4, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> Printing their own stickers now, cos it makes it so real.
> 
> Go to Morrisons - I picked up plenty of discounts on the fruit and veg this morning.



Well, you say that... would that be "most" Morrisons or just some Morrisons?


----------



## brogdale (Aug 4, 2021)

Talking about food; probably best not to feed the thick troll


----------



## MrSki (Aug 4, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> I just gave a link to 4, 500 creative jobs. If they're making decent music, put it ONLINE. Beter that than some hole in a Berlin backstreet with 40 drunk locals.
> 
> Four and a half thousand creative jobs - this week.


Did all 4500 start on Monday morning?


----------



## MrSki (Aug 4, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> Well, you say that... would that be "most" Morrisons or just some Morrisons?


The reason it is being discounted is probably due to having a much shorter shelf life due to delays in delivery.


----------



## krtek a houby (Aug 4, 2021)

MrSki said:


> The reason it is being discounted is probably due to having a much shorter shelf life due to delays in delivery.



Tbf, some of us discounted Loose Meat a while back. 

His shelf life is way past sell by date.


----------



## MrSki (Aug 4, 2021)




----------



## krtek a houby (Aug 4, 2021)

Mean, they could just cut down existing forests.


----------



## andysays (Aug 4, 2021)

MrSki said:


>



Is this guy suggesting that the BBC are deliberately not mentioning Brexit as a reason for the national shortage of timber because they want to go along with the government line of everything Brexit-related being fine?

And if so, how is this claim any more ludicrous than some of the bollocks loose meat has been rightly mocked for?


----------



## editor (Aug 4, 2021)

andysays said:


> Is this guy suggesting that the BBC are deliberately not mentioning Brexit as a reason for the national shortage of timber because they want to go along with the government line of everything Brexit-related being fine?
> 
> And if so, how is this claim any more ludicrous than some of the bollocks loose meat has been rightly mocked for?


I'm not keen on this censorship theory, but you'd agree that Brexit is certainly contributing to the shortage, yes?


----------



## andysays (Aug 4, 2021)

editor said:


> I'm not keen on this censorship theory, but you'd agree that Brexit is certainly contributing to the shortage, yes?


My main point is about the suggestion that the BBC is deliberately attempting to hide the truth.

I haven't read the article and can't find it on the BBC website now, so I'm not going to comment on the substance of the story on the basis of pure speculation, which is what it would be if I said something now.

Does anyone have a link to the story on the BBC or anywhere else?

ETA I think this is the story

*Timber shortage due to 'unprecedented' post-lockdown demand*​


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 4, 2021)

andysays said:


> My main point is about the suggestion that the BBC is deliberately attempting to hide the truth.
> 
> I haven't read the article and can't find it on the BBC website now, so I'm not going to comment on the substance of the story on the basis of pure speculation, which is what it would be if I said something now.
> 
> Does anyone have a link to the story on the BBC or anywhere else?











						Timber shortage due to 'unprecedented' post-lockdown demand
					

Prices are rising sharply as climate change and post-lockdown DIY and building projects hit supplies.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## Ax^ (Aug 4, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> Printing their own stickers now, cos it makes it so real.
> 
> Go to Morrisons - I picked up plenty of discounts on the fruit and veg this morning.



Morrisons  and all that guardian reading

be Waitrose next

posh cunt


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 4, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> Morrisons  and all that guardian reading
> 
> be Waitrose next
> 
> posh cunt


Loose meat got the fruit and veg there. And everything else? My bet m&s


----------



## andysays (Aug 4, 2021)

Having now found and read the article, it suggests that 



> Sweden, which supplies almost half of the structural wood used in the UK, has recorded its lowest stock levels for 20 years.



There also appear to be other global supply problems and 



> post-lockdown construction and DIY projects creat(ing) huge demand



So while I wouldn't dismiss out of hand the idea that Brexit *might* be making things worse, I think there's enough other reasons that we can't just assume that Brexit *is* a factor, unless anyone has any specific evidence to demonstrate that.


----------



## editor (Aug 4, 2021)

andysays said:


> My main point is about the suggestion that the BBC is deliberately attempting to hide the truth.


The BBC has certainly been accused in the past of presenting facts in a certain way that suit a government's agenda.


----------



## editor (Aug 4, 2021)

andysays said:


> So while I wouldn't dismiss out of hand the idea that Brexit *might* be making things worse, I think there's enough other reasons that we can't just assume that Brexit *is* a factor, unless anyone has any specific evidence to demonstrate that.


There's no 'might' about it according to these industry websites: 









						Manufacturers call for material substitutions to help combat Brexit shortages
					

But CPA says 'supply chains are generally slow to change'




					www.building.co.uk
				












						The Timber Trade Federation explains the current shortage in timber
					

What’s been happening to timber? Formerly in abundance on merchants’ shelves, builders have been experiencing shortages alongside the rest of the construction sector. The Timber Trade Federation look




					probuildermag.co.uk
				












						Global timber shortage putting UK housebuilding supply chain under ‘enormous pressure’
					

Leading voices from the UK roofing industry have warned of faltering availability and rapidly rising costs of basic materials such as roofing batten.




					scottishconstructionnow.com


----------



## andysays (Aug 4, 2021)

editor said:


> The BBC has certainly been accused in the past of presenting facts in a certain way that suit a government's agenda.


It's also been accused of being a bastion of liberal leftydom.

I tend to view accusations of either sort from either side with a bit of skepticism.

So do you have any specific evidence that Brexit is a factor in the current timber shortages?


----------



## andysays (Aug 4, 2021)

editor said:


> There's no 'might' about it according to these industry websites:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It looks like you're doing your usual thing of posting links without pointing out specifically which bits you think back up your argument.

If you can't be bothered to be more specific, I really can't be bothered to respond.


----------



## editor (Aug 4, 2021)

andysays said:


> It looks like you're doing your usual thing of posting links without pointing out specifically which bits you think back up your argument.
> 
> If you can't be bothered to be more specific, I really can't be bothered to respond.


Your denial has just gone supernova.


----------



## Johnny Doe (Aug 4, 2021)

andysays said:


> Having now found and read the article, it suggests that
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I posted this in January:

"How about vital supplies for the Utilities industry? In my Inbox just now.....

*"Dear Customer,*

We are currently forced to temporarily suspend all Land Transport services from continental Europe to the UK with immediate effect.
The arrangements agreed under the Brexit deal have meant enormous bureaucratic regulations particularly for recipients in the UK, which they are currently unable to handle in a legally compliant manner. Most of the recipients (Importers or Consignee’s) in the UK have never dealt with customs procedures before and need further guidance on the new regulations (e.g. the confirmation of the correct ten-digit commodity codes, providing Power of Attorney).
*Therefore, we need to advise you to postpone all shipments until further notice.* Furthermore, would you also please ensure that all necessary paperwork for customs i.e. export and import documentation, is in place for your shipments, as well as at the consignee i.e. all direct representation letters and HMRC information to allow for a smooth customs clearance.
We will do our utmost to support both origin and destination; shipper, and recipients and continue with our service as soon as possible.
If you have any questions, please contact your local ****** team for support and further information.
*
Your***** team"*

My direct personal experience in working at senior director level in the Utilities Industry on programmes worth hundred of million of pounds, is that material supply issues as a direct result of Brexit have seen an unprecedented rise in material costs and in the some, not isolated, cases, delays to vital projects, delays which will cost many hundreds of millions more.


----------



## glitch hiker (Aug 4, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> Printing their own stickers now, cos it makes it so real.
> 
> Go to Morrisons - I picked up plenty of discounts on the fruit and veg this morning.


because discounts never happened for various reasons before Brexit


----------



## Loose meat (Aug 4, 2021)

But we're in the middle of a national crisis of ... _checks notes_ ... 100K shortfall of drivers!!!  At least 100K drivers. Could be many many more. At least. How many does it say on the stickers ????


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 4, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> But we're in the middle of a national crisis of ... _checks notes_ ... 100K shortfall of drivers!!!  At least 100K drivers. Could be a million. At least. How many does it say on the sticikers????


You have never seemed very concerned about the national shortfall of a hundred thousand or more nurses. What do your notes have to say about that?


----------



## Loose meat (Aug 4, 2021)

They don't put bread on the shelves you .... loaf.


----------



## eatmorecheese (Aug 4, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> They don't put bread on the shelves you .... loaf.


..._ checks loaf..._


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Aug 4, 2021)

glitch hiker said:


> because discounts never happened for various reasons before Brexit


Brexit has been a real boon for us Brits hasn't it? We've got pay rises in a couple of sectors, discounts on food in some supermarkets, jobs created in some areas and we've even got vaccines. All amazing brand new things that never happened while we were under the jack boot of Brussels.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 4, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> They don't put bread on the shelves you .... loaf.


You didn't get any bread at Morrison's if you're to be believed.


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 4, 2021)

Harry Smiles said:


> I posted this in January:
> 
> "How about vital supplies for the Utilities industry? In my Inbox just now.....
> 
> ...


Have they resumed since January or are they still suspended ?


----------



## Loose meat (Aug 4, 2021)

I think we all know the answer - a standard 5-minute Remainer drama: had the drama, flounced around the Internet, bought the stickers


----------



## Supine (Aug 4, 2021)

Sainsbury’s acknowledge there is some kind of problem. But then all the comments are about them advertising on GB News


----------



## Supine (Aug 4, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> I think we all know the answer - a standard 5-minute Remainer drama: had the drama, flounced around the Internet, bought the stickers



it’sa shame you can’t limit yourself to five minutes


----------



## Johnny Doe (Aug 4, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Have they resumed since January or are they still suspended ?



I'd have to check on that particular supplier, but reduced supply and hugely inflated materials has continued


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 4, 2021)

Supine said:


> Sainsbury’s acknowledge there is some kind of problem. But then all the comments are about them advertising on GB News



Was shopping in Sainsbury's earlier. Everything on my list was in stock except bleach - tbf there was lots of domestos but at 3 x the price of the own brand stuff I left it on the shelf


----------



## bimble (Aug 4, 2021)

What is wrong with these people what the fuck did they expect ? The framing of everything annoying about having left the EU and therefore not being in it anymore as some sort of anti British spite is really quite insane.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 4, 2021)

bimble said:


> View attachment 282089What is wrong with these people what the fuck did they expect ? The framing of everything annoying about having left the EU and therefore not being in it anymore as some sort of anti British spite is really quite insane.


Not sure what else you expect from the express


----------



## bimble (Aug 4, 2021)

Criminal record check will be part of the £6 visa application process, that’s not great. Priti Patel is working on devising the UK visa system for visitors that will no doubt be even better.


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 4, 2021)

Harry Smiles said:


> I'd have to check on that particular supplier, but reduced supply and hugely inflated materials has continued


Try ordering pork scratchings from U.K. to Portugal , delivery charges are eye watering 😂


----------



## Artaxerxes (Aug 4, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Try ordering pork scratchings from U.K. to Portugal , delivery charges are eye watering 😂



Ordered big box of tea from a Finnish tea brand to treat the wife last Christmas. Never going to be able to do that again it looks like, no longer deliver to the UK.


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 4, 2021)

bimble said:


> View attachment 282089What is wrong with these people what the fuck did they expect ? The framing of everything annoying about having left the EU and therefore not being in it anymore as some sort of anti British spite is really quite insane.


Also affects EU residents whose passport is not from a country in the EU .


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 4, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Ordered big box of tea from a Finnish tea brand to treat the wife last Christmas. Never going to be able to do that again it looks like, no longer deliver to the UK.


Got no problem getting stuff sent here aside from cost of delivery . Had a case of Jamaican ginger beer sent over and it arrived within a week.


----------



## bimble (Aug 4, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Got no problem getting stuff sent here aside from cost of delivery . Had a case of Jamaican ginger beer sent over and it arrived within a week.


Don't you live in the EU? oh right you mean british exports to the EU are fine have no issues.


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 4, 2021)

bimble said:


> Don't you live in the EU? oh right you mean british exports to the EU are fine have no issues.


I might have a use for you in posting pork scratchings?


----------



## bimble (Aug 4, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> I might have a use for you in posting pork scratchings?


you couldn't afford what it costs to make me queue up at the post office sorry.


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 4, 2021)

bimble said:


> you couldn't afford what it costs to make me queue up at the post office sorry.


I know money isn’t the be and end all of your existence bimble , you clearly want to help but I sense some doubts . No doubt valid doubts but at the same time doubts that you are capable of overcoming . You are capable of painting on a bigger canvass , performing in a bigger stage , singing in a bigger garden whilst being naked .


----------



## Artaxerxes (Aug 4, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Got no problem getting stuff sent here aside from cost of delivery . Had a case of Jamaican ginger beer sent over and it arrived within a week.



Very much store dependent but a few EU stores have noped out of sending stuff our way


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 4, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Very much store dependent but a few EU stores have noped out of sending stuff our way


Mine is U.K. to EU so yes not the same


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Aug 4, 2021)

bimble said:


> View attachment 282089What is wrong with these people what the fuck did they expect ? The framing of everything annoying about having left the EU and therefore not being in it anymore as some sort of anti British spite is really quite insane.




If all it takes is the threat of €7 every three years to keep these cunts from embarrassing the rest of us with our neighbours, this is very much a Brexit win.


----------



## Ax^ (Aug 4, 2021)

you already managed to make an embarrassment of yourself with your neighbours

without paying the 7 euros


----------



## glitch hiker (Aug 4, 2021)

Doctor Carrot said:


> Brexit has been a real boon for us Brits hasn't it? We've got pay rises in a couple of sectors, discounts on food in some supermarkets, jobs created in some areas and we've even got vaccines. All amazing brand new things that never happened while we were under the jack boot of Brussels.


I can't think of any metric that shows Brexit has been anything but a pointless dismal failure and an exercise in smashing our own horizons, short circuiging opportunities fo future generations, and rewarding petty small minded concerns.


----------



## MrSki (Aug 4, 2021)

Don't like any of these people but fuck me how stupid can you get? Left the Union & shock horror been treated as a third country.


----------



## philosophical (Aug 4, 2021)

I don't think it is UK tourists being _singled out. _I think the charge applies to other non EU people too.
Within the EU system they do what they want to do.
The UK is outside that system, and there is supposedly a border between the two different systems.
Presumably the UK can charge what they want due to autonomy...oh...and in accordance with international laws and treaties.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Aug 4, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> you already managed to make an embarrassment of yourself with your neighbours




How?


----------



## Ax^ (Aug 4, 2021)

why would 7 euro stop you being an embrassment to your neighbours?

would be my retort

we win by having to have a criminal check and apply for a visa and pay for the privillage

the government is saying it will not add a reciprocal charge

Winning


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Aug 4, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> why would 7 euro stop you being an embrassment to your neighbours?
> 
> would be my retort
> 
> ...



Sorry, I really do not understand you.


----------



## Ax^ (Aug 4, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> If all it takes is the threat of €7 every three years to keep these cunts from embarrassing the rest of us with our neighbours, this is very much a Brexit win.



my post makes about as much sense as your own


----------



## Supine (Aug 4, 2021)

Not read this in detail but editor


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Aug 4, 2021)

Supine said:


> Not read this in detail but editor





Yeah, but the issue for small bands with very limited following is flogging merch,  (t shirts, hoodies, stickers) without paying tax.


----------



## Ax^ (Aug 4, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> If all it takes is the threat of €7 every three years to keep these cunts from embarrassing the rest of us with our neighbours, this is very much a Brexit win.



Wut?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Aug 4, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> Wut?



The article is some Express gammon piece that the EU is introducing an equivalent of an ESTA and it will cost us €7 every three years to sign up.


----------



## Supine (Aug 4, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Yeah, but the issue for small bands with very limited following is flogging merch,  (t shirts, hoodies, stickers) without paying tax.



You never miss an opportunity for a dig do you. Not that brexit has changed anything with regards to paying tax on merch.

I’ve sold tshirts for a club night i ran and record label. I didnt need to pay tax because i never made enough money to worry about it. Big tour bands probably do, or maybe they don’t. I have no idea.


----------



## MrSki (Aug 4, 2021)




----------



## glitch hiker (Aug 4, 2021)

MrSki said:


>


Some things shouldn't be photoshopped


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Aug 4, 2021)

Supine said:


> I have no idea.




Obvious.


----------



## Supine (Aug 4, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Obvious.



I look forward to your comprehensive analysis of merch tax implications.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Aug 4, 2021)

Supine said:


> I look forward to your comprehensive analysis of merch tax implications.



Financial transactions attracts taxation. That is the most simplistic explanation of how tax works and society is funded.

It really isn't that hard.


----------



## Ax^ (Aug 4, 2021)

trying to hard mate


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Aug 4, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> trying to hard mate




Expand.

I have an early flight and it is now past midnight, so fill yer boots and get no reply for a while.


----------



## Ax^ (Aug 4, 2021)

we will just come back to another day after your flight

if you busy enough to humblebrag i've got better things to do


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 4, 2021)

Supine said:


> I’ve sold tshirts for a club night i ran and record label. I didnt need to pay tax because i never made enough money to worry about it.



You should keep on not worrying about it



> Big tour bands probably do,



Nothing for anyone else here to worry about either then


----------



## Supine (Aug 4, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> You should keep on not worrying about it



for sure

posting the link i was trying to share some good news with Ed. I didn’t think I’d be getting into a discussion on taxation


----------



## Colin Hunt (Aug 4, 2021)

This reply is a bit late but here goes. Apologies for the wall of text.


Raheem said:


> I'd be interested in more on how the EU systematically worked against collective bargaining rights. I'm not saying it isn't true, but it is a relative question, and when you look at the massive gap between the UK and certain EU countries in terms of the proportion of workplaces covered by CB, it does seem a counterintuitive statement.


Before I get into the meat of the EU's systematic attempts to limit collective bargaining rights to secure its four freedoms I've got a few preliminary points. Firstly, it's not a relative question. The EU either systematically worked against collective bargaining rights or it didn't. The UK being tougher on collective bargaining rights in some areas that don't touch on the EU's four freedoms is not relevant to what I was saying.

Secondly, the massive gap between the UK and certain EU countries in terms of the proportion of workplaces covered by collective bargaining agreements is a reflection of the underlying structure of industrial relations in different countries. In most cases, those structures predate the EU or are the result of domestic policies which the EU has not influenced. As such, it's not counterintuitive at all for me to say that the EU has undermined collective bargaining rights even though many countries within the EU have strong collective bargaining traditions. As I'll show, under EU law those traditions are no match for the EU's four freedoms. As an aside, it's also worth noting that only 6/27 EU countries are fully compliant with their international obligations on the right to strike as set out in ILO Conventions 87 and 98, so it's not like the collective bargaining cup runneth over in most EU member states.

With that out of the way, there are two principal ways in which the EU sought to undermine collective bargaining rights in order to secure its four freedoms. The first is through directives and ECJ/EFTAC decisions, which have modified domestic collective bargaining and imposed new burdens on trade unions in certain situations. The second is through the EC's country specific recommendations and the post-crisis bailout terms imposed on struggling EU states, both of which completely changed collective bargaining laws in certain EU states, with disastrous effects.

*1. Directives and Court Decisions:*

The *Posted Workers Directive 1996* allows workers who are temporarily posted by a company located in one member state to work in another member state to be subject to the law of the member state in which their company is located, as opposed to the law of the state in which they are working. While certain core areas of the law of their host country had to be observed (working time, health and safety, pay, discrimination protections, etc) applicable sector-wide collective bargaining agreements were not listed as core areas (except for universally applicable collective agreements in the construction sector). This allowed posting companies to pay their workers lower wages than had been collectively agreed across sectors, provided that the minimum floor of rights had been met. It's clearly an example of the EU working against collective bargaining rights to facilitate the free movement of services and workers, and was justified at the time as making it easier for smaller enterprises to operate in other member states. The result of this directive was a gradual increase in the usage of posted workers, abuses such as rotational postings, and the creation of companies in countries with poor labour laws in order to exploit the directive. As a result of these abuses, the directive was amended in 2018. Now posted workers are entitled to collectively bargained rights that emanate from large, representative regional or sectoral collective agreements. Of course, countries where there is no sectoral bargaining (possibly due to EU pressure, which will be discussed later) have no such agreements.

That's an example of the EU working against collective bargaining rights by allowing companies that post workers to ignore them. Two ECJ cases also show the EU working against collective bargaining rights (in particular, the right to strike).

*International Transport Workers Federation v Viking Line ABP (2007): *This case concerned the reflagging of a Finnish ship so that Estonian workers could be employed on lower wages than existing Finnish crewmembers in contravention of a collective agreement. The union went on strike and the case ended up before the ECJ. While the ECJ recognised that the right to strike was a fundamental one, it was held that a strike which limits the freedom of establishment of a company may be contrary to EU law and thus illegal (even if all domestic laws on balloting etc had been complied with). This case is an example of the EU injecting uncertainty into member state collective bargaining laws by making strikes that were previously completely legitimate into potentially illegal strikes, simply because their employer had a connection to another EU member state.

_*Laval un Partneri Ltd v Svenska Byggnadsarbetareförbundet*_* (2007): *This case concerned a Latvian company that posted Latvian construction workers to Sweden and undercut Swedish workers (while complying with the PWD). When they refused to sign the Swedish construction sector's collective agreement the union blockaded their premises and prevented them from operating in Sweden. The ECJ decided that, as Laval were not likely to know their obligations in advance, and as they had complied with the minimum levels of posted worker protection specified in the PWD, the strike was not a justified restriction of their freedom of movement. The union were fined.

Both the above cases show the EU modifying member state collective bargaining laws to protect the free movement of services, one of the four freedoms that the EU is based on. In all member states this effectively created a two-tier system of strikes. Strikes that were directed at domestic companies only remained subject to domestic law, but strikes with potential cross-border effects had to both comply with domestic law and the new requirements that they be justified in restricting free movement, and proportionate relative to the matter in dispute.

As these requirements existed outside of domestic law and were never properly defined outside of a few ECJ cases, they caused chaos in member state labour law regimes. For example, in 2008 BALPA balloted to go on strike, and British Airways strong-armed them by declaring that their cause was a disproportionate restriction on their freedom to provide services in the EU. Even though a potential strike was legal under English law, BA demanded damages of £100million per day to account for lost revenue caused by the strike (trade union damages are capped in English law but not under the ECJ case law that BA relied upon). As a consequence, the strike was stopped.

While the impact of these cases on English collective bargaining was reduced slightly by the decision in *Govia GTR Railway Limited v ASLEF [2016] *which limited their potential application to industrial actions that directly hindered the free movement of services, it is still true that ECJ decisions made collective bargaining and the right to strike subordinate to the rights of multinational corporations. Not only that, the uncertainty that the ECJ's rulings created certainly had a chilling effect on potential strike actions across the EU as the BA/BALPA dispute shows.

_*Holship Norge AS v Norsk Transportarbeiderforbund *_*(2015): *This case was an advisory opinion produced by the EFTA Court, so it was not binding on Norway. However, the reasoning of the EFTA Court takes the Viking and Laval approach even further so it merits discussion here as a reflection of EU judges' views on collective bargaining. In this case Holship (a Danish company) wanted to provide its own casual workers to load and discharge its cargo - contravening a long-standing Norwegian collective agreement. The Norwegian transport union threatened a boycott to force Holship to sign the agreement and abide by it.

EFTAC advised that as the agreement went beyond the 'core object and elements of collective bargaining', it could be considered a breach of competition law. EFTAC also advised that the principle in Viking applied, and that as the agreement went beyond the Court's definition of collective bargaining, any boycott would breach Holship's freedom of establishment. The effect of this judgment was to effectively annul all collectively bargained dock labour schemes similar to Norway's across the whole of the EEA. The sector in Norway was permanently casualised to safeguard one of the EU's four freedoms. Additionally, the European Commission openly encouraged companies to challenge similar schemes in other member states.

I think that the above evidence is enough to show that the EU has a destructive track record when it comes to collective bargaining. The EU repeatedly fights collective agreements when they impede the free establishment of foreign companies, places onerous restrictions on certain industrial actions (even when compared to the awful restrictions placed on trade unions in the UK), and allows companies that post workers to undercut collective agreements.

*2. Commission Recommendations and Bailout Terms*

Where the EU has intervened in member state laws concerning collective bargaining, it has had a serious negative impact. To give the example of Greece and Portugal, the terms of their post-crisis bailouts included the suspension of sector collective agreements and in the Greek case associations of persons were empowered to conclude collective agreements instead of unions. The end result of these measures (and others) was that the number of Greek workers covered by collective agreements fell by 84%. In Portugal the number of workers covered fell by 89%.

In Romania and Ireland the European Commission intervened to recommend that new laws not be brought in line with treaty obligations, with the consequence that certain workers were denied their collective bargaining rights, in contravention of several treaties.

The common theme in the case law and the actions of the EC and other EU institutions over the past 25 years is that worker rights are subordinate to the rights of their bosses. That is something that the EU has in common with the UK (in fact, it may have imported the concept from us), which is why I said that the EU is no better when it comes to trade union rights. I can add some sources for the claims in this part of my post if you want, but right now I've run out of steam after a lot of typing.


----------



## Raheem (Aug 5, 2021)

Colin Hunt said:


> This reply is a bit late but here goes. Apologies for the wall of text.
> 
> Before I get into the meat of the EU's systematic attempts to limit collective bargaining rights to secure its four freedoms I've got a few preliminary points. Firstly, it's not a relative question. The EU either systematically worked against collective bargaining rights or it didn't. The UK being tougher on collective bargaining rights in some areas that don't touch on the EU's four freedoms is not relevant to what I was saying.
> 
> ...


For right now, that's TLDR, but thanks for going to the trouble, and I will get round to it.


----------



## andysays (Aug 5, 2021)

editor said:


> Your denial has just gone supernova.


Except that I've haven't denied anything at all, I've explicitly said



andysays said:


> I wouldn't dismiss out of hand the idea that Brexit *might* be making things worse, I think there's enough other reasons that we can't just assume that Brexit *is* a factor, unless anyone has any specific evidence to demonstrate that.


It's frankly pointless attempting to engage with you on this issue, as you appear unable to discuss it coherently or in good faith, so please do us both a favour - don't bother responding to this post or addressing any more of your ill thought out knee jerk nonsense to me in future.


----------



## andysays (Aug 5, 2021)

Harry Smiles said:


> I'd have to check on that particular supplier, but reduced supply and hugely inflated materials has continued


For this to count as genuine evidence, you would need to have figures specifically for timber imports pre-Brexit and since, and you would also need to show how much of the decrease was down to Brexit, rather than the other supply factors we've already recognised are contributing to the problem.

Again, I'm not saying Brexit hasn't been a factor, but so far we've seen absolutely nothing which actually proves that it is.


----------



## Johnny Doe (Aug 5, 2021)

andysays said:


> For this to count as genuine evidence, you would need to have figures specifically for timber imports pre-Brexit and since, and you would also need to show how much of the decrease was down to Brexit, rather than the other supply factors we've already recognised are contributing to the problem.
> 
> Again, I'm not saying Brexit hasn't been a factor, but so far we've seen absolutely nothing which actually proves that it is.


I wouldn't need any of that. I see it everyday - you mean you'd need it to believe it. Because reading back, you are quite determined not to unequivocally accept what was obvious would happen, what has obviously happened and what was the main obvious cause.

So feel free to have a dig for the data, and maybe convince yourself it doesn't entirely prove what's as plain as day. 

Enjoy.


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 5, 2021)

Harry Smiles said:


> I'd have to check on that particular supplier, but reduced supply and hugely inflated materials has continued


Apparently, they resumed supplies in January ten days later or so after their initial announcement.

Just a quick google about timber supplies shows a very complex and fascinating international situation. with covid being a big contributor to high prices and shortages across the globe never mind any additional issues in the UK with Brexit.


----------



## Loose meat (Aug 5, 2021)

Harry Smiles said:


> I wouldn't need any of that. I see it everyday - you mean you'd need it to believe it. Because reading back, you are quite determined not to unequivocally accept what was obvious would happen, what has obviously happened and what was the main obvious cause.
> 
> So feel free to have a dig for the data, and maybe convince yourself it doesn't entirely prove what's as plain as day.
> 
> Enjoy.



Project Fear told us the least likely outcome of negotiations would be tarriff-free trade - emphasising that made catastrophising easier. 

Yet here we are, and no catastrophe. Plain as day.


----------



## krtek a houby (Aug 5, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> Project Fear told us the least likely outcome of negotiations would be tarriff-free trade - emphasising that made catastrophising easier.
> 
> Yet here we are, and no catastrophe. Plain as day.



Your one trick pony presence indicates catastrophe. Can't you take your project fear bollocks elsewhere?


----------



## Loose meat (Aug 5, 2021)

Do please _like_ that post cos it's important he gets another vacuous day off to a meaningful start.


----------



## bimble (Aug 5, 2021)

People didn't want Brexit because of facts and data so it's entirely pointless trying to convince them it was a shit idea using facts and data. They are never ever going to change their mind. 
Like first there were no empty shelves it was all Remoaner lies, then even if maybe there are empty shelves it was cos of covid now i don't know, back to it being a remoaner lie i think. 
Kind of fascinating to watch them but a total waste of time trying to change their mind.


----------



## gosub (Aug 5, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> Project Fear told us the least likely outcome of negotiations would be tarriff-free trade - emphasising that made catastrophising easier.
> 
> Yet here we are, and no catastrophe. Plain as day.


WTF We are in the middle of a massive clusterfuck.   Or hadn't you noticed.  Not entirely down to Brexit (but it has played its part) not entirely down to Covid (but it has played its part).  And it is the middle.  This is first year of Brexit proper, and it hasn't been a seamless transition, lessons will be learned  and things will normalise but right now can we just get through harvest season.


----------



## bimble (Aug 5, 2021)

gosub said:


> This is first year of Brexit proper, and it hasn't been a seamless transition, lessons will be learned  and things will normalise but right now can we just get through harvest season.


No it's not, doesn't start properly til next year.








						Brexit red tape hits UK manufacturing of goods from cars to fridges
					

January deadline is scuppering UK supply chains as they reel from the pandemic




					www.independent.co.uk


----------



## Loose meat (Aug 5, 2021)

Oh no!!!

Enjoyed my wild rocket last night, down from 99p to 59p. Won't someone think of McDonalds lettuce


----------



## andysays (Aug 5, 2021)

Harry Smiles said:


> I wouldn't need any of that. I see it everyday - you mean you'd need it to believe it. Because reading back, you are quite determined not to unequivocally accept what was obvious would happen, what has obviously happened and what was the main obvious cause.
> 
> So feel free to have a dig for the data, and maybe convince yourself it doesn't entirely prove what's as plain as day.
> 
> Enjoy.


What exactly do you see everyday?

Unless it's containers full of Swedish timber being refused point blank admittance to the UK because we don't want nasty foreign timber here, I really don't see how you can decide what the causes of a shortage might be.

No one is disputing the shortage, and I'm not denying that some of it may be a result of Brexit, but your response is utterly unconvincing to anyone who isn't already convinced that Brexit is to blame for absolutely everything. 

Unfortunately there appear to be a lot of gullible people who are willing to believe any old unevidenced claim as long as it allows them to maintain their smug "told you so" position.


----------



## Loose meat (Aug 5, 2021)

gosub said:


> WTF We are in the middle of a massive clusterfuck.   Or hadn't you noticed.



You really have convinced yourself this is true.  Fascinating to observe how this takes hold, and then seemingly perpetuates itself. I guess this is how extremism is created.

Tell me, something, what is the IMFs latest expectation for the UK economy?


----------



## bimble (Aug 5, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> Oh no!!!
> 
> Enjoyed my wild rocket last night, down from 99p to 59p. Won't someone think of McDonalds lettuce


You talk about your 59p salad a lot. You should definitely leave a rave review, cos everyone else seems to think it’s disgusting.


			https://groceries.morrisons.com/products/morrisons-wild-rocket-120660011


----------



## Loose meat (Aug 5, 2021)

This place is just too bizarre at times. Thanks for the LOL.


----------



## Loose meat (Aug 5, 2021)

double


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 5, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> You really have convinced yourself this is true.  Fascinating to observe how this takes hold, and then seemingly perpetuates itself. I guess this is how extremism is created.
> 
> Tell me, something, what is the IMFs latest expectation for the UK economy?


That it still exists. Which is more than can be said for your notes


----------



## gosub (Aug 5, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> You really have convinced yourself this is true.  Fascinating to observe how this takes hold, and then seemingly perpetuates itself. I guess this is how extremism is created.
> 
> Tell me, something, what is the IMFs latest expectation for the UK economy?


That it won't fully bounce back from 2020's 9.9% slump this year.


----------



## krtek a houby (Aug 5, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> This place is just too bizarre at times. Thanks for the LOL.



Why don't you leave, then?

Morrisons wanker.


----------



## brogdale (Aug 5, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> Tell me, something, what is the IMFs latest expectation for the UK economy?


It's largely the result of this:



Why are trolls so bad at macroeconomics?


----------



## Artaxerxes (Aug 5, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> Oh no!!!
> 
> Enjoyed my wild rocket last night, down from 99p to 59p. Won't someone think of McDonalds lettuce



Love to live on a diet of wild rocket, proper satisfying meal that


----------



## brogdale (Aug 5, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Love to live on a diet of wild rocket, proper satisfying meal that


The 'gateway meal' for the ultimate rats and rainwater diet.


----------



## editor (Aug 5, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> This place is just too bizarre at times. Thanks for the LOL.


Take a week off. LOL.


----------



## editor (Aug 5, 2021)

MrSki said:


> Don't like any of these people but fuck me how stupid can you get? Left the Union & shock horror been treated as a third country.



Who is that dreadful woman?


----------



## ruffneck23 (Aug 5, 2021)

editor said:


> Who is that dreadful woman?


Carole Malone an express hack and twat


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Aug 5, 2021)

ruffneck23 said:


> Carole Malone an express hack and twat


Hackntwat, sounds like a small city on the east coast of America.


----------



## hitmouse (Aug 5, 2021)

Colin Hunt said:


> This reply is a bit late but here goes. Apologies for the wall of text.
> 
> Before I get into the meat of the EU's systematic attempts to limit collective bargaining rights to secure its four freedoms I've got a few preliminary points. Firstly, it's not a relative question. The EU either systematically worked against collective bargaining rights or it didn't. The UK being tougher on collective bargaining rights in some areas that don't touch on the EU's four freedoms is not relevant to what I was saying.


Would it be worth making this the OP of a separate thread? A lot of work obviously went into that post, so I sort of feel it might deserve more than being buried on page 169 of a fast-moving thread. I only saw it cos I was mildly curious about what loose meat got banned for. Wild rocket wanker lol.
Also, fwiw, I think I disagree with you about it not being a relative question - surely if it was just "the EU is bad for workers' rights, yes/no" things would be simpler, but I think it is possible to say that the EU works against collective bargaining rights mainly in countries that have higher standards than the UK while also protecting collective bargaining rights in some areas which the UK might otherwise be worse on. Obviously people can put different emphasis on different parts of that depending on what argument they want to make.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Aug 5, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Would it be worth making this the OP of a separate thread? A lot of work obviously went into that post, so I sort of feel it might deserve more than being buried on page 169 of a fast-moving thread.



It certainly deserves more serious engagement than its likely to get on this thread.


----------



## editor (Aug 5, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> It certainly deserves more serious engagement than its likely to get on this thread.


Shall I just sort out this separate Brexit thread and spin that post off into a separate thread?


----------



## gosub (Aug 5, 2021)

editor said:


> Shall I just sort out this separate Brexit thread and spin that post off into a separate thread?



would be a pogofish   EU NeoLiberalism: Bolkestein, Viking, Laval, Ruffert and the Posted Workers Directive


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 5, 2021)

editor said:


> Shall I just sort out this separate Brexit thread and spin that post off into a separate thread?


could you hack away Loose meat's rotten carcass into a bin while you're doing that?


----------



## brogdale (Aug 5, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> could you hack away Loose meat's rotten carcass into a bin while you're doing that?


#ChecksRocket


----------



## bimble (Aug 5, 2021)

brogdale said:


> It's largely the result of this:
> 
> View attachment 282196
> 
> Why are trolls so bad at macroeconomics?


So is that brexit ? Or is it something else that has made us come out the worst on that chart?


----------



## Yossarian (Aug 5, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> could you hack away Loose meat's rotten carcass into a bin while you're doing that?



That's a new twist on nominative determinism.


----------



## brogdale (Aug 5, 2021)

bimble said:


> So is that brexit ? Or is it something else that has made us come out the worst on that chart?


Everything in tory land.


----------



## Badgers (Aug 5, 2021)

Trust the UK media


----------



## krtek a houby (Aug 5, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> It certainly deserves more serious engagement than its likely to get on this thread.



Agreed.

Continuity remainers and note checkers need to rein it in.


----------



## brogdale (Aug 5, 2021)

Looks like there could other exogenous threats to Loose sphincter's cheap rocket...



I blame Brexit/the EU...take yer pick


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 5, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Looks like there could other exogenous threats to Loose sphincter's cheap rocket...
> 
> View attachment 282243
> 
> I blame Brexit/the EU...take yer pick


This wouldn't be happening if bands could tour europe


----------



## brogdale (Aug 5, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> This wouldn't be happening if bands could tour europe


..or if Brussels hadn't stopped us from renationalising the banks.


----------



## Yossarian (Aug 5, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Looks like there could other exogenous threats to Loose sphincter's cheap rocket...
> 
> View attachment 282243
> 
> I blame Brexit/the EU...take yer pick



The bracing effect of much colder winters will no doubt make Brexit Britain a hardier and more industrious nation, a larger version of the Mound is already being prepared as part of London's bid for the 2034 Winter Olympics.


----------



## hitmouse (Aug 5, 2021)

.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 5, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> The bracing effect of much colder winters will no doubt make Brexit Britain a hardier and more industrious nation, a larger version of the Mound is already being prepared as part of London's bid for the 2034 Winter Olympics.


We will hail our new penguin overlords


----------



## brogdale (Aug 5, 2021)

The BBC could run all those old 1970's Global Cooling documentaries.


----------



## two sheds (Aug 5, 2021)

If the Gulf Stream switches off we won't need to  Bloody Brexit


----------



## brogdale (Aug 5, 2021)

two sheds said:


> If the Gulf Stream switches off we won't need to  Bloody Brexit


Yep, a quick wander across the doggerland ice-sheet and those lorry drivers will all be back.


----------



## JimW (Aug 5, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> The bracing effect of much colder winters will no doubt make Brexit Britain a hardier and more industrious nation, a larger version of the Mound is already being prepared as part of London's bid for the 2034 Winter Olympics.


Couldn't come at a better time with all this global warming about.


----------



## Chilli.s (Aug 5, 2021)

Was going to freecycle the kids sledge, might hang on to it now, just in case


----------



## Colin Hunt (Aug 5, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Would it be worth making this the OP of a separate thread? A lot of work obviously went into that post, so I sort of feel it might deserve more than being buried on page 169 of a fast-moving thread. I only saw it cos I was mildly curious about what loose meat got banned for. Wild rocket wanker lol.


Honestly I don't mind either way. This thread is going to be a lot less fast moving now that meat man is banned. Although perhaps when the new Brexit forum gets created there'll be space for a thread on workers rights.

Honestly the thing that shook me the most about Loose Meat is finding out we shop at the same supermarket. I was wondering where all the rocket had gone.


hitmouse said:


> Also, fwiw, I think I disagree with you about it not being a relative question - surely if it was just "the EU is bad for workers' rights, yes/no" things would be simpler, but I think it is possible to say that the EU works against collective bargaining rights mainly in countries that have higher standards than the UK while also protecting collective bargaining rights in some areas which the UK might otherwise be worse on. Obviously people can put different emphasis on different parts of that depending on what argument they want to make.


The EU isn't all bad on workers' rights, certainly when compared to the mess that we've created here. However, in terms of collective bargaining and the right to strike the EU has certainly been bad for workers' rights, which was what I meant when I said that the question wasn't relative.

In all member states, the creation of a two-tier system where industrial action directed at foreign companies was treated differently to action directed at domestic companies placed trade unions at a massive disadvantage and undoubtedly had a chilling effect on the exercise of their rights (it also placed domestic firms at a disadvantage to multinational firms with bases in other EU member states). And when given the chance to intervene directly in national laws the EU hasn't merely worked against collective bargaining rights, but has presided over their decimation. Collective agreement coverage in Greece fell by over 80% as a direct result of the bailout terms dictated to them by the EU which massively decentralised collective bargaining, and several other countries enacted similar attacks on collective bargaining due to EU pressure or edict. I tend to believe that Germany acts through EU institutions to impose neoliberal reforms on other EU states to prolong its own struggling social compact with organised labour, but perhaps that's a discussion for another day.


----------



## Cerv (Aug 6, 2021)

MrSki said:


> Don't like any of these people but fuck me how stupid can you get? Left the Union & shock horror been treated as a third country.




it's a bit of a waste of their newly invented time travel that the EU are going back to 2016 to arrange punishments for a Brexit yet to happen.
but well done them convincing the Cameron government to be onboard with the proposal. makes the situation properly funny.


----------



## Ming (Aug 6, 2021)

Interesting piece on the problems Brexit has created for touring UK musicians.


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 6, 2021)

Ming said:


> Interesting piece on the problems Brexit has created for touring UK musicians.



there's a dedicated thread for this subject


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## Ming (Aug 6, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> there's a dedicated thread for this subject


  Cool. Will repost.


----------



## Elpenor (Aug 7, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> there's a dedicated thread for this subject


Surely a forum is needed


----------



## MrSki (Aug 7, 2021)




----------



## brogdale (Aug 7, 2021)

Yebbut, you knock Truss, but she's bringing in those trade deals...here's the latest poppy products treaty signed just yesterday...


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 7, 2021)

Good news boppers



The hope that springs eternal springs right up your backside


----------



## Badgers (Aug 8, 2021)

Relaunched Brexit Party has bank account shut down
					

Reform Party leader Richard Tice says the decision by Metro Bank was 'outrageous' and 'based on politics'




					www.telegraph.co.uk


----------



## andysays (Aug 8, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Relaunched Brexit Party has bank account shut down
> 
> 
> Reform Party leader Richard Tice says the decision by Metro Bank was 'outrageous' and 'based on politics'
> ...


*Finally*, some good Brexit news...


----------



## Badgers (Aug 8, 2021)

Welsh haulier facing biggest crisis in 50 years in 'perfect storm'
					

It's the name on the back of many a lorry you pass on the motorway, but Owens Group is facing a huge challenge caused by Brexit




					www-walesonline-co-uk.cdn.ampproject.org
				




Probably just down to Covid


----------



## bimble (Aug 8, 2021)

Been wondering about something.
If there are fewer people now for the same number of jobs, as I think everyone agrees is the case, then it’s great if wages go up but what then? I mean there’ll still be fewer people to do all the jobs so what happens, in time the jobs (and so the amount of businesses in the UK) will shrink to meet the reduced number of workers right? Is that necessarily a bad thing idk.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2021)

bimble said:


> Been wondering about something.
> If there are fewer people now for the same number of jobs, as I think everyone agrees is the case, then it’s great if wages go up but what then? I mean there’ll still be fewer people to do all the jobs so what happens, in time the jobs (and so the amount of businesses in the UK) will shrink to meet the reduced number of workers right? Is that necessarily a bad thing idk.


You're assuming the same conditions obtain and do not vary over time. But obvs things do change.

The population is growing. Some time ago it became clear that non-eu immigration was largely replacing EU immigration, and when travel is easier I anticipate that this is likely to continue. The only thing which has allowed this government to get anywhere near the auld goal of reducing net migration to below 100,000 has been the pandemic. And that's not going to last forever. So this notion of there being a reduced number of workers is rather a non-starter, esp in light of the growing number of 18-year olds in the next few years


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## mojo pixy (Aug 8, 2021)

'Shrinking to fit' can't really happen; unless eg. fewer goods are transported, fewer people become ill, or need care. Nationally, only about 8.5% of Adult Social Care workers are (have been) EU citizens. The problem IMO is not replacing those who leave after Brexit; the problem is that there's been a staff shortage for years. Wages have _not_ risen to attract staff. Really the issue remains, that there are jobs people do not want to do.

Brexit may exacerbate that (seems likely to), but in Social Care for example, Brexit is less of an issue than than _people's attitudes to doing care work_. Nobody i speak to cites wages as the reason they wouldn't do care work, it's always a version of "Oh I couldn't do that!"

I'm not hopeful that wages will rise in my sector - and even if they do, I don't believe that will be enough to overcome whatever it is that stops people working in social care. Care pays the same as bar or shop work, broadly - more, in many cases. Bars and shops may now begin struggling to find staff, but they haven't till now .. social care has been struggling for years. Wages aren't the issue IMO, not in my line of work.


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## Elpenor (Aug 8, 2021)

The margins are razor thin in care, certainly in terms of LA contracts, IIRC from my time working in the HQ of a provider of adult social care back in the 2000s. Can’t see them having improved, only worsened tbh


----------



## andysays (Aug 8, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> You're assuming the same conditions obtain and do not vary over time. But obvs things do change. Not just the number in the workforce as a whole. But also other economic  variables. Some time ago it became clear that non-eu immigration was largely replacing EU immigration, and when travel is easier I anticipate that this is likely to continue. The only thing which has allowed this government to get anywhere near the auld goal of reducing net migration to below 100,000 has been the pandemic. And that's not going to last forever. So this notion of there being a reduced number of workers is rather a non-starter, esp in light of the growing number of 18-year olds in the next few years


It's also not just about numbers.

A significant amount of EU migration was workers coming here for a few years to earn more than they could in their home countries, then returning home.

This has resulted in some industries restructuring to be based primarily on relying on and exploiting these temporary workers, frequently with conditions that longer term workers wouldn't accept.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2021)

andysays said:


> It's also not just about numbers.
> 
> A significant amount of EU migration was workers coming here for a few years to earn more than they could in their home countries, then returning home.
> 
> This has resulted in some industries restructuring to be based primarily on relying on and exploiting these temporary workers, frequently with conditions that longer term workers wouldn't accept.


There's also where investment goes, so if there's a lot of money flowing into say adult social care or the NHS or some high tech thing then there will be more jobs in those areas. - this being supplementary to your post. It's nonsense to say, as bimble does, that the number of jobs will tend towards the number of workers as this ignores the pull factor that full employment has, drawing workers from abroad for example or other groups entering the labour market


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## The39thStep (Aug 8, 2021)

bimble said:


> Been wondering about something.
> If there are fewer people now for the same number of jobs, as I think everyone agrees is the case, then it’s great if wages go up but what then? I mean there’ll still be fewer people to do all the jobs so what happens, in time the jobs (and so the amount of businesses in the UK) will shrink to meet the reduced number of workers right? Is that necessarily a bad thing idk.


Sort of post full employment scenario which the UK has never achieved


----------



## mojo pixy (Aug 8, 2021)

Elpenor said:


> The margins are razor thin in care, certainly in terms of LA contracts, IIRC from my time working in the HQ of a provider of adult social care back in the 2000s. Can’t see them having improved, only worsened tbh


Yes, and no. Care companies still post profits in the millions of pounds. The Priory Group was sold last year for £2bn, iirc, and a local company who own a mere 6 homes made £1million profit in 2017-18 (I checked once after working there for a few shifts and being appalled at some of the things I saw)

I believe there is plenty of growth potential in SC wage structures, but at the moment it's mainly bound up in directors' bonuses and shareholder dividends. This creates the 'market conditions' to which then charities and other nonprofit organisations fit their business plans, and LAs budget for.


----------



## bimble (Aug 8, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> this notion of there being a reduced number of workers is rather a non-starter, esp in light of the growing number of 18-year olds in the next few years


Really?
I don't understand. The new points based immigration system will not reduce immigration you're saying? We will simply replace the EU workers with people from further afield and carry on as we were? 
But don't we have a significantly ageing population ?
Not trying to be annoying I just don't follow your reasoning.


----------



## Cerv (Aug 8, 2021)

andysays said:


> *Finally*, some good Brexit news...


Tice should probably have kept quiet instead of running to the press to basically admit they’d been abusing problems for the bank’s anti-money laundering enforcement.


----------



## Elpenor (Aug 8, 2021)

mojo pixy said:


> Yes, and no. Care companies still post profits in the millions of pounds. The Priory Group was sold last year for £2bn, iirc, and a local company who own a mere 6 homes made £1million profit in 2017-18 (I checked once after working there for a few shifts and being appalled at some of the things I saw)
> 
> I believe there is plenty of growth potential in SC wage structures, but at the moment it's mainly bound up in directors' bonuses and shareholder dividends. This creates the 'market conditions' to which then charities and other nonprofit organisations fit their business plans, and LAs budget for.


Ah, interesting, the place I worked for was a wee bit third sector “an industrial and provident society” I think so perhaps a different approach although all the C suite were on in excess of 100k 12 years ago so maybe not


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Aug 8, 2021)

bimble said:


> Really?
> I don't understand. The new points based immigration system will not reduce immigration you're saying? We will simply replace the EU workers with people from further afield and carry on as we were?
> But don't we have a significantly ageing population ?
> Not trying to be annoying I just don't follow your reasoning.



The U.K. has said it will allow >5,000,000 Hong Kongers to move here, cos racist, obvs, mostly they will be younger age groups, not all by any means, but most.


----------



## bimble (Aug 8, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> The U.K. has said it will allow >5,000,000 Hong Kongers to move here, cos racist obvs, mostly they will be younger age groups, not all by any means, but most.


Thats alright then. 
But basically thats the idea, everything continues much the same we just keep up the same level of immigration but not from the EU?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Aug 8, 2021)

bimble said:


> Thats alright then.
> But basically thats the idea, everything continues much the same we just keep up the same level of immigration but not from the EU?



I don’t imagine the Hong Kongers will be here for a couple of years then scooting back to China with the loot, they’ll be here for good.


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## bimble (Aug 8, 2021)

So if the population will continue to grow, due to net migration, the whole rising wages thing is just a blip?


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## ska invita (Aug 8, 2021)

bimble said:


> So if the population will continue to grow, due to net migration, the whole rising wages thing is just a blip?


Have to add;
Lots of people's real world wages have been going down for years now, mine included.  Too soon to call rising wages A Thing. Even a 1k joining bonus isn't a rising wage, it's a bribe


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## brogdale (Aug 8, 2021)

Capital will ensure that it's political wing ensures sufficient supply-side 'flexibility' to the labour market to avoid rising labour costs in the medium term.


----------



## brogdale (Aug 8, 2021)

Maybe "adequate food" was a promise too far ?


----------



## bimble (Aug 8, 2021)

Its just a covid thing. 
"The military intervention will form part of Operation Rescript, an ongoing operation which was launched to tackle issues relating to the Covid pandemic." (daily mail)


----------



## brogdale (Aug 8, 2021)

#Brexdemic


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## bimble (Aug 8, 2021)

If nobody in government was able to see this (lorry driver) problem coming, for the last 5 years, i wonder what other - maybe less obviously visible than empty shelves in supermarkets - things are going to become completely surprising crises that nobody could have predicted.


----------



## Maltin (Aug 8, 2021)

bimble said:


> If nobody in government was able to see this (lorry driver) problem coming, for the last 5 years, i wonder what other - maybe less obviously visible than empty shelves in supermarkets - things are going to become completely surprising crises that nobody could have predicted.


Who said they couldn’t see it coming? The government didn’t want Brexit to happen as they knew it would be a shit show but it was the will of the people, so here we are.


----------



## bimble (Aug 8, 2021)

_very wrong thread_


----------



## bimble (Aug 8, 2021)

Maltin said:


> Who said they couldn’t see it coming? The government didn’t want Brexit to happen as they knew it would be a shit show but it was the will of the people, so here we are.


Yeah but in the years since the referendum they didn't start doing any of the stuff they're scrambling to do now, to grow more British lorry drivers. It appears they didn't see it coming as an issue until the empty shelves happened. European Research Group must have been busy with other very useful stuff.


----------



## Maltin (Aug 8, 2021)

bimble said:


> Yeah but in the years since the referendum they didn't start doing any of the stuff they're scrambling to do now, to grow more British lorry drivers. It appears they didn't see it coming as an issue until the empty shelves happened.


The last 5 years have seen endless infighting just like we see here. It’s not surprising that they have had little time to focus on how to deal with the real problems at hand. And there are no easy answers to deal with the problems they have created for themselves and with their current ideological approach I cannot see them ever being solved any time soon.


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 8, 2021)

BBC Radio 4 - The Briefing Room, Where Are All the Workers?
					

As the economy opens up again, is the UK short of workers?




					www.bbc.co.uk
				




This I thought was a fair look at workforce post Brexit.

Brexit is not the main problem longterm.

On lorry drivers. One of the people in programme said for years that business had not invested in training its workers. Then complained it could not get people with right skills.

Lorry driving is an example. To be a fully qualified HGV lorry driver costs a lot. This puts off a lot of people. Once qualified the conditions of work are poor. Basic stuff like somewhere to wash and toilets.

The training is over three grand and that's a lot for many people. 

Also to be an HGV driver one must pay for regular training post being qualified to remain able to drive. According to programme there are a lot of people who haven't kept up. Left the industry. If they were encouraged back there wouldn't be a problem.

Which points to not Brexit but:

Business not paying for training.
Poor conditions of work
Leading to people not staying in the job long term as a career.

Got the impression from the programme that in end its not a lack of workforce but the recent decades of poor employment practises, unwillingness of business to invest and retain workers that is a big problem.

Im not a lorry driver but I'd say this kind of If you don't like it here go somewhere else attitude is endemic to British business. Bosses then moan they can't get the staff.

Even one of the people in the programme said he's tired of hearing British business complain when they won't invest in training.


----------



## Badgers (Aug 8, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Maybe "adequate food" was a promise too far ?
> 
> View attachment 282727


That is just Covid. All the EU members have their armies bailing out their political failures. 

#ToryScum


----------



## ska invita (Aug 9, 2021)

bimble said:


> Yeah but in the years since the referendum they didn't start doing any of the stuff they're scrambling to do now, to grow more British lorry drivers. It appears they didn't see it coming as an issue until the empty shelves happened. European Research Group must have been busy with other very useful stuff.


Tbf there was a government policy formed.. . It even had a catchy Cummings style slogan: Fuck Business


----------



## Elpenor (Aug 9, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Tbf there was a government policy formed.. . It even had a catchy Cummings style slogan: Fuck Business


Boris Johnson interpreted that slogan as “have an affair with Jennifer Acuri”


----------



## two sheds (Aug 9, 2021)

There's a three-word slogan in there somewhere ...


----------



## bimble (Aug 9, 2021)

It is quite amazing to see how underneath the reports about the government asking the army to help deliver adequate food there are loads and loads of brexiteers _still _saying how their supermarket is fine their cupboards are full and its all a load of Remoaner lies.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 9, 2021)

Badgers said:


> That is just Covid. All the EU members have their armies bailing out their political failures.
> 
> #ToryScum


The British army will never bail us out by putting the ruling class against the wall


----------



## mojo pixy (Aug 9, 2021)

I just don't know what to believe any more. Over the weekend, partly out of curiosity but partly from necessity, I ended up visiting a Lidl, an Aldi, a Tesco, a Sainsbury’s and two Morrisons, all spread across three towns (Newton Abbot, Paignton, Torquay - sorry, four towns. Include Teignmouth). Not a single empty shelf in any of them, as far as I could tell.

I'm not saying there aren't empty shelves _somewhere_, but I'm not seeing them .. yet. I'm not even feeling smug, just a little confused. If those supermarkets can stock their branches here in South Devon, miles beyond the end of the M5, how come they can't manage to stock .. wherever the reports of empty shelves are coming from?

I'm beginning to suspect people are still over-buying / panic buying in places, and that empty shelves are mainly to do with that. But that's a mere opinion, based on subjective experience and not 'data'.


----------



## bimble (Aug 9, 2021)

It is very weird, the patchiness of the supply issue.
I have no idea why it would be really obvious where i am and not where you are. Probably just down to individual drivers, on particular regular routes, down to who has left and who has stayed in their jobs?
 There's absolutely nobody who lives where i do (in the two nearby towns i mean, with one large supermarket and a couple of smaller ones in each town) who hasn't been well aware of the problem for many weeks now. It has become normal to just wait and see, not expect to be able to get all the stuff on yr shopping list and adapt to what is available. Time of day makes no difference either.

Personally I'm not someone who cares deeply about food or needs to find very particular ingredients for my planned meals or anything so am not massively bothered by it but if you did need to get specific stuff on a specific day i imagine you'd be having a bad time.


----------



## brogdale (Aug 9, 2021)

Horn of plenty in the Tory/Brexity areas...famine in the (continuity  ) remoaner zones...see what they're doing here?


----------



## bimble (Aug 9, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Horn of plenty in the Tory/Brexity areas...famine in the (continuity  ) remoaner zones...see what they're doing here?


My empty shelves are in a good solid Leave county!  (50.7 per cent leave, 49.3 remoan , which is not resounding but still).


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 9, 2021)

bimble said:


> It is quite amazing to see how underneath the reports about the government asking the army to help deliver adequate food there are loads and loads of brexiteers _still _saying how their supermarket is fine their cupboards are full and its all a load of Remoaner lies.


It is only amazing to people new to reading the comments under reports


----------



## brogdale (Aug 9, 2021)

bimble said:


> My empty shelves are in a good solid Leave county!  (50.7 per cent, which is not resounding but still).


Under the patriotic national average...so punishment beating for you remoaniacs.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 9, 2021)

mojo pixy said:


> I just don't know what to believe any more. Over the weekend, partly out of curiosity but partly from necessity, I ended up visiting a Lidl, an Aldi, a Tesco, a Sainsbury’s and two Morrisons, all spread across three towns (Newton Abbot, Paignton, Torquay - sorry, four towns. Include Teignmouth). Not a single empty shelf in any of them, as far as I could tell.
> 
> I'm not saying there aren't empty shelves _somewhere_, but I'm not seeing them .. yet. I'm not even feeling smug, just a little confused. If those supermarkets can stock their branches here in South Devon, miles beyond the end of the M5, how come they can't manage to stock .. wherever the reports of empty shelves are coming from?
> 
> I'm beginning to suspect people are still over-buying / panic buying in places, and that empty shelves are mainly to do with that. But that's a mere opinion, based on subjective experience and not 'data'.


I think more people than usual are preparing kill rooms -- how else to explain the lack of cling film, bin bags, electric steak knives and bleach in the dalston Sainsbury's?


----------



## bimble (Aug 9, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> It is only amazing to people new to reading the comments under reports


The bit i cant fathom is why do these people think that this government, the Get Brexit Done government, and the daily mail etc, would be joining in the remoaner fake news about there being a problem.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 9, 2021)

bimble said:


> The bit i cant fathom is why do these people think that this government, the Get Brexit Done government, and the daily mail etc, would be joining in the remoaner fake news about there being a problem.


The thing I can't fathom is why you think the comments genuine


----------



## bimble (Aug 9, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> The thing I can't fathom is why you think the comments genuine


I see. Are the ones on here fake too? All the many posts this past several weeks saying  the problem does not exist, you're imagining it or its just that the truck broke down etc?


----------



## bimble (Aug 9, 2021)

If brexit takes away my roast potatoes i will never forgive or forget. 








						Brexit, floods and Covid could lead to shortages of chips and roast potatoes in UK
					

Experts are predicting that the UK could face a shortage of chips and roast potatoes, as a result of the major flooding which hit Germany, Belgium and the Netherlands last month.




					www.yorkshirepost.co.uk


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 9, 2021)

bimble said:


> I see. Are the ones on here fake too? All the many posts this past several weeks saying  the problem does not exist, you're imagining it or its just that the truck broke down etc?


Frankly the problem as you term it seems to be partial rather than general, in that it isn't affecting everyone or everything and it isn't constant. One day there's no San Pellegrino fruit drinks in Waitrose, the next you can't obtain murder supplies in dalston and on the third there's no quinoa in marks and Spencer. Yet throughout the shelves in independents are replete.


----------



## bimble (Aug 9, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Frankly the problem as you term it seems to be partial rather than general, in that it isn't affecting everyone or everything and it isn't constant.


Yes. I just said that i am well aware of it being patchy. So does that mean there is not in fact a problem 'as i term it'? I take it you agree with Spymaster that there's really no issue worth worrying about until the shops are 'genuinely empty'.


----------



## MrSki (Aug 9, 2021)

Just brought the army in for a PR exercise?

The gaps in the shelves at my local Sainsbury's have gradually reduced & is probably 90% fully stocked.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 9, 2021)

bimble said:


> Yes. I just said that i am well aware of it being patchy. So does that mean there is not in fact a problem 'as i term it'? I take it you agree with Spymaster that there's really no issue worth worrying about until the shops are 'genuinely empty'.


There are lots of issues to worry about beforehand. Climate change. Who will win the league. Will I buy a Zionist avacado by mistake. But utterly empty shops? No.


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 9, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Horn of plenty in the Tory/Brexity areas...famine in the (continuity  ) remoaner zones...see what they're doing here?


Might be  a vaccine side effect


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 9, 2021)

bimble said:


> I take it you agree with Spymaster that there's really no issue worth worrying about until the shops are 'genuinely empty'.



Well he's a sensible fellow so he'll see through your misinterpretation here and, no doubt, agree with me. I would have thought you'd have realised the mistake you were making there, now that you've had a chance to read it sober!


----------



## Steel Icarus (Aug 9, 2021)

bimble said:


> It is quite amazing to see how underneath the reports about the government asking the army to help deliver adequate food there are loads and loads of brexiteers _still _saying how their supermarket is fine their cupboards are full and its all a load of Remoaner lies.


It's quite amazing after five years so many people have yet to figure out "divide and conquer" isn't just a theory


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 9, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> There are lots of issues to worry about beforehand. Climate change. Who will win the league. Will I buy a Zionist avacado by mistake. But utterly empty shops? No.



Ta da!


----------



## andysays (Aug 9, 2021)

bimble said:


> If brexit takes away my roast potatoes i will never forgive or forget.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I guess the major flooding which hit Germany, Belgium and the Netherlands last month must have been the result of Brexit as well.


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 9, 2021)

andysays said:


> I guess the major flooding which hit Germany, Belgium and the Netherlands last month must have been the result of Brexit as well.


See also; fires in Greece, and the generally poor showing of EU nations in the olympics.


----------



## bimble (Aug 9, 2021)

Theres a whole potato battle that i hadn't heard about, going on behind the sausage wars. 








						Brexit fightback: UK bans EU seed potato imports in snub at Brussels
					

A trade row between Brussels and London threatened to erupt tonight after UK ministers banned the import of seed potatoes from EU countries in a victory for Scottish farmers.




					www.potatopro.com


----------



## two sheds (Aug 9, 2021)

Banning imports of plants and trees and other things that can carry diseases and invasive species across borders is no bad thing tbh.


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 9, 2021)

bimble said:


> It is very weird, the patchiness of the supply issue.
> I have no idea why it would be really obvious where i am and not where you are. Probably just down to individual drivers, on particular regular routes, down to who has left and who has stayed in their jobs?
> There's absolutely nobody who lives where i do (in the two nearby towns i mean, with one large supermarket and a couple of smaller ones in each town) who hasn't been well aware of the problem for many weeks now. It has become normal to just wait and see, not expect to be able to get all the stuff on yr shopping list and adapt to what is available. Time of day makes no difference either.
> 
> Personally I'm not someone who cares deeply about food or needs to find very particular ingredients for my planned meals or anything *so am not massively bothered by it* but if you did need to get specific stuff on a specific day i imagine you'd be having a bad time.


More than amply evidenced by posting over a hundred posts on this issue


----------



## bimble (Aug 9, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Banning imports of plants and trees and other things that can carry diseases and invasive species across borders is no bad thing tbh.


All plants and animals should stay in their own countries?


----------



## andysays (Aug 9, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> See also; fires in Greece, and the generally poor showing of EU nations in the olympics.


I never realised my vote would have such an impact


----------



## bimble (Aug 9, 2021)

Potatopro.com is a great website by the way.


----------



## two sheds (Aug 9, 2021)

bimble said:


> All plants and animals should stay in their own countries?


I wouldn't go that far but we've imported enough plant and animal diseases in the past to be more careful in the future - unrelated to Brexit.


----------



## bimble (Aug 9, 2021)

two sheds said:


> I wouldn't go that far but we've imported enough plant and animal diseases in the past to be more careful in the future - unrelated to Brexit.


But the potato war is entirely brexit, nothing to do with diseases or invasive spud species. 








						UK bans EU seed potato imports
					

UK bans import of seed potatoes from EU countries in response to European refusal to re-authorise British imports




					www.fruitnet.com


----------



## two sheds (Aug 9, 2021)

Indeed, my point still stands though.


----------



## Supine (Aug 9, 2021)

An entirely expected brexit bonus









						Vodafone to bring back roaming charges from January
					

It follows EE's decision to reintroduce daily charges for using phone tariffs while in Europe



					www.bbc.com


----------



## Saul Goodman (Aug 9, 2021)

bimble said:


> If brexit takes away my roast potatoes i will never forgive or forget.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Just buy some potatoes and make your own.


----------



## two sheds (Aug 9, 2021)

Worked for me a few years ago


----------



## Ax^ (Aug 9, 2021)

image the scene 2022 the Irish government watching the shortage of potatos in the United Kingdom

they need workhouses


----------



## Saul Goodman (Aug 9, 2021)

Supine said:


> An entirely expected brexit bonus
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Non EU company in "Doesn't abide by EU reguations" shocker. 
As you say, entirely expected.


----------



## bimble (Aug 9, 2021)

None of these things are problems just one exciting opportunity after another really, improvise your dinner and grow your own potatoes both more fun than switching phone providers though.


----------



## cyril_smear (Aug 9, 2021)

eatmorecheese said:


> Popcorny bin race then?


173 pages later... last in!


----------



## Saul Goodman (Aug 9, 2021)

bimble said:


> None of these things are problems just one exciting opportunity after another really, improvise your dinner and grow your own potatoes both more fun than switching phone providers though.


I quite enjoy switching phone providers. I've done it 3 times in 2 years, and I'll probably be doing it again very soon. It's quite painless really, rather like cooking something different.


----------



## gosub (Aug 9, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Banning imports of plants and trees and other things that can carry diseases and invasive species across borders is no bad thing tbh.


Well it's more justifiable than confiscating cheese and pickle sandwiches


----------



## gosub (Aug 9, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> image the scene 2022 the Irish government watching the shortage of potatos in the United Kingdom
> 
> they need workhouses


In case they are nterested.  Soup stocks stable..  But willing to swap Ian Paisley Jnr for a portion of chips for other reasons


----------



## two sheds (Aug 9, 2021)

gosub said:


> Well it's more justifiable than confiscating cheese and pickle sandwiches


Yeh well that depends on what sort of foreign bacteria and fungi they're infested by


----------



## gosub (Aug 9, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Yeh well that depends on what sort of foreign bacteria and fungi they're infested by


So said the Dutch.


----------



## bimble (Aug 9, 2021)

Saul Goodman said:


> More than amply evidenced by posting over a hundred posts on this issue


Don’t you be telling me how to waste my time on here, at least I live in brexit Britain what’s your excuse?

weird misquote thing


----------



## not a trot (Aug 9, 2021)

Good news round these parts. Poundstretchers have opened a new store today. We also have a Poundland store too.


----------



## Saul Goodman (Aug 9, 2021)

bimble said:


> Don’t you be telling me how to waste my time on here, at least I live in brexit Britain what’s your excuse?
> 
> weird misquote thing


Another Brexit fuck-up.


----------



## Raheem (Aug 9, 2021)

not a trot said:


> Good news round these parts. Poundstretchers have opened a new store today. We also have a Poundland store too.


Bet you £1 you lost a Poundworld though.


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 9, 2021)

Saul Goodman said:


> I quite enjoy switching phone providers. I've done it 3 times in 2 years, and I'll probably be doing it again very soon. It's quite painless really, rather like cooking something different.



I've been with the same provider for over 20 years. Orange/EE. Every time they do something I don't like, I ring them up and threaten to leave. They pretty much always let me off.


----------



## krtek a houby (Aug 9, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> I've been with the same provider for over 20 years. Orange/EE. Every time they do something I don't like, I ring them up and threaten to leave. They pretty much always let me off.



Remaining has benefits?


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 9, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> Remaining has benefits?


Individual ones, for sure.


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Aug 9, 2021)

not a trot said:


> Good news round these parts. Poundstretchers have opened a new store today. We also have a Poundland store too.


You'll know the post Brexit levelling up agenda is really in full swing when the 99p store sets up shop in your town.


----------



## krtek a houby (Aug 9, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Individual ones, for sure.



Is the future orange?


----------



## Badgers (Aug 9, 2021)

Doctor Carrot said:


> You'll know the post Brexit levelling up agenda is really in full swing when the 99p store sets up shop in your town.


Also when UC claimants lose £20 a week. When fuel costs are about to rise 12% and when Disgraced Prime Minister de Pfeffel Johnson spends £100k on a couple of paintings for his free accommodation.


----------



## Ax^ (Aug 9, 2021)

and 160 k o. flags to stop him shagging the ataff


----------



## Badgers (Aug 9, 2021)

At least the #ToryScum had confirmed that the army will not be needed to bail out a failing Brexit  









						No 10 deny 'no deal' Brexit role for Army - BBC News
					

There had been reports that the Army would be on standby if the UK leaves the EU without a deal.




					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## Saul Goodman (Aug 9, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> I've been with the same provider for over 20 years. Orange/EE. Every time they do something I don't like, I ring them up and threaten to leave. They pretty much always let me off.


I only moved because a few providers decided to get into a pricing war. I'm now paying €10/month for unlimited* everything. 

*apparently, 'unlimited' actually means limited with data. Probably something to do with Brexit.


----------



## Chilli.s (Aug 9, 2021)

Badgers said:


> At least the #ToryScum had confirmed that the army will not be needed to bail out a failing Brexit
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I noticed a thing in a newspaper about the army when on manoeuvres recently in the usa, a big operation apparently, they ran out of ammunition after a few days. Don't know if brexit was blamed. Fuck knows how they'd fair in any real situation.


----------



## Supine (Aug 9, 2021)

Badgers said:


> At least the #ToryScum had confirmed that the army will not be needed to bail out a failing Brexit
> 
> 
> 
> ...



No. That article is from 2018. It’s only now they realise they may need the army.


----------



## gosub (Aug 9, 2021)

Badgers said:


> At least the #ToryScum had confirmed that the army will not be needed to bail out a failing Brexit
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Reading that now , thank god she's gone.  

At the time
Army sought clearance once planning determined it would require more than a battalion.


----------



## two sheds (Aug 9, 2021)

Chilli.s said:


> I noticed a thing in a newspaper about the army when on manoeuvres recently in the usa, a big operation apparently, they ran out of ammunition after a few days. Don't know if brexit was blamed. Fuck knows how they'd fair in any real situation.


Bayonets, they don't like it up em


----------



## gosub (Aug 9, 2021)

Supine said:


> No. That article is from 2018. It’s only now they realise they may need the army.


At the time the army realized before Downing Street. Was a hell of a tell on 'no deal is better than a bad deal'


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 9, 2021)

Supine said:


> No. That article is from 2018. It’s only now they realise they may need the army.


Think this was to deter the threatened  Sainsburys riot


----------



## Artaxerxes (Aug 9, 2021)

Golden opportunities for Whiskey firms.


----------



## two sheds (Aug 9, 2021)

He'd be good with potholes


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Aug 9, 2021)

This is brilliant stuff. The SNP helped usher Thatcher in by refusing to back Callaghan’s government in a confidence vote in March 1979. 43 years later they reprise Thatcher’s seminal poster from that election in support of rejoining the neo-liberal EU. As I’ve said before it’s only a matter of time before pro-EU elements line up four square alongside their fellow europhiles - the bosses - to attack pay rises and lamenting the good old days of endless supplies of exploited cheap labour. The trajectory is clear.


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 10, 2021)

As a Remainer I thought my post 5140 here was showing that Neo Liberalism was something dominant in this country that had little to do with being in the EU.

Whilst I agree the way the EU has gone on is Neo Liberal. So has the British State independently of EU. UK wasn't in the Euro so had more control.

Going back to lorry drivers and lack of them. Point of my post is this wasn't really about being in EU. It was about this country adopting Thatcherism.


----------



## ska invita (Aug 10, 2021)

mojo pixy said:


> Smokeandsteam said:
> 
> 
> > This is brilliant stuff. The SNP helped usher Thatcher in by refusing to back Callaghan’s government in a confidence vote in March 1979. 43 years later they reprise Thatcher’s seminal poster from that election in support of rejoining the neo-liberal EU. As I’ve said before it’s only a matter of time before pro-EU elements line up four square alongside their fellow europhiles - the bosses - to attack pay rises and lamenting the good old days of endless supplies of exploited cheap labour. The trajectory is clear.



Scottish independence will mean joining the EU. Scottish voters voted remain 2 to 1 iirc.
As indyref 2 gets closer the issue of joining the EU does likewise. It makes sense the SNP are laying the groundwork for that now. 

As an aside it would be interesting to know what's happening with Scottish fishing now and in the near future. Last I heard the Tories were temporarily subsidising it


----------



## Badgers (Aug 10, 2021)

Supine said:


> No. That article is from 2018. It’s only now they realise they may need the army.


I know


----------



## Artaxerxes (Aug 10, 2021)

Gramsci said:


> As a Remainer I thought my post 5140 here was showing that Neo Liberalism was something dominant in this country that had little to do with being in the EU.
> 
> Whilst I agree the way the EU has gone on is Neo Liberal. So has the British State independently of EU. UK wasn't in the Euro so had more control.
> 
> Going back to lorry drivers and lack of them. Point of my post is this wasn't really about being in EU. It was about this country adopting Thatcherism.



Socialist utopia any day now we've left the EU.

I'm well aware the EU are bastards but the reason I voted remain is because one look over the last 30 years is enough to tell you that the UK is far more eager to embarce full deregulated capitalism and I'd rather be trapped in the EU than trapped in brave new world UK


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Aug 10, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Socialist utopia any day now we've left the EU.


Indeed, it's well known the UK was a socialist utopia with top quality housing, jobs and pay right up until the point we joined the common market. It's been down hill since then. 

Johnson campaigned for leave because he's a well known socialist and he wants to take Britain back to the socialist utopia it once was. It's why he got a huge majority in 2019 and why that well known  neo liberal pig dog, Corbyn got a thrashing.


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 10, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Socialist utopia any day now we've left the EU.
> 
> I'm well aware the EU are bastards but the reason I voted remain is because one look over the last 30 years is enough to tell you that the UK is far more eager to embarce full deregulated capitalism and I'd rather be trapped in the EU than trapped in brave new world UK


What would you think of being trapped in the future EU that ska invita  posed even though there is an argument that this hell wouldn't necessarily be base on further deregulation of capital. 









						EU watch
					

Something that frequently gets missed because - well, we've got a shittly inattentive media....  https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/france-germany-drop-plans-russia-summit-after-eu-outcry-2021-06-25/  There have been serious tensions within the EU for more than a decade over Russia - the...




					www.urban75.net


----------



## Artaxerxes (Aug 10, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> What would you think of being trapped in the future EU that ska invita  posed even though there is an argument that this hell wouldn't necessarily be base on further deregulation of capital.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It'd be shit, but Farage and co spent 2010-16 thoroughly in bed and coalitions in the EU parliaments with the far-right lunatics of Hungary and elsewhere so a wary eye on the coalition of the Brexit cheerleaders means that there is no entirely good choice, just less shit ones.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Aug 10, 2021)

Doctor Carrot said:


> Indeed, it's well known the UK was a socialist utopia with top quality housing, jobs and pay right up until the point we joined the common market. It's been down hill since then.



The closest Britain has ever got to full employment, strong economic growth, rising wages and collective bargaining covering most of industry was 6 years before we joined the Common Market. Now, of course, the series of development that would occur in the 1970's would have put all of that under massive pressure regardless of the UK joining the common market or not, but then that's not the point you were (wrongly) seeking to make is it?


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 10, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> It'd be shit, but Farage and co spent 2010-16 thoroughly in bed and coalitions in the EU parliaments with the far-right lunatics of Hungary and elsewhere so a wary eye on the coalition of the Brexit cheerleaders means that there is no entirely good choice, just less shit ones.


It's interesting though that what remaining in the EU is to some in the UK isn't the same as staying in the EU is to some in Europe especially to a large section of EU based political parties.


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Aug 10, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> The closest Britain has ever got to full employment, strong economic growth, rising wages and collective bargaining covering most of industry was 6 years before we joined the Common Market. Now, of course, the series of development that would occur in the 1970's would have put all of that under massive pressure regardless of the UK joining the common market or not, but then that's not the point you were (wrongly) seeking to make is it?


Yes, thank you spokesman for the working class. I'm aware of the history. No, it wasn't the point I was seeking to make.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Aug 10, 2021)

Doctor Carrot said:


> I'm aware of the history.



That seems unlikely.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 10, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> That seems unlikely.


you could have quoted only the first two words and your post would still have been apposite


----------



## Colin Hunt (Aug 10, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> I'm well aware the EU are bastards but the reason I voted remain is because one look over the last 30 years is enough to tell you that the UK is far more eager to embarce full deregulated capitalism and I'd rather be trapped in the EU than trapped in brave new world UK


I know representative democracy in this country is a machine for creating hopelessness, but the idea that we have to be 'trapped' anywhere is incredibly pessimistic. I voted to remain for the same reasons as you, but it can't be denied that the soft left in the UK refusing to outline a vision for the future of the UK outside of the EU and instead choosing to become cheerleaders for European neoliberalism played a part in creating the so-called 'brave new world UK' that we currently live in. If there were to be another referendum on EU membership, I would never vote to rejoin.


Smokeandsteam said:


> The closest Britain has ever got to full employment, strong economic growth, rising wages and collective bargaining covering most of industry was 6 years before we joined the Common Market. Now, of course, the series of development that would occur in the 1970's would have put all of that under massive pressure regardless of the UK joining the common market or not, but then that's not the point you were (wrongly) seeking to make is it?


You may be interested in Unwitting Architect: German Primacy and the Origins of Neoliberalism which suggests that increased European integration in the 1970s prevented Labour from adopting any alternative economic strategies in response to the crises of the 1970s (and also led to the end of Italian eurocommunism as an electoral force and the failure of Mitterrand's reforms). 

$65 but available online for free if you know where to look.


----------



## gosub (Aug 10, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> The closest Britain has ever got to full employment, strong economic growth, rising wages and collective bargaining covering most of industry was 6 years before we joined the Common Market. Now, of course, the series of development that would occur in the 1970's would have put all of that under massive pressure regardless of the UK joining the common market or not, but then that's not the point you were (wrongly) seeking to make is it?


The only periods where there was full employment 1914-18 and 1939-45


----------



## two sheds (Aug 10, 2021)

depends what you mean by full employment. It was around 3-5% after WWII which is defined by economists as full employment because the people unemployed were in between jobs.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Aug 10, 2021)

Colin Hunt said:


> You may be interested in Unwitting Architect: German Primacy and the Origins of Neoliberalism which suggests that increased European integration in the 1970s prevented Labour from adopting any alternative economic strategies in response to the crises of the 1970s (and also led to the end of Italian eurocommunism as an electoral force and the failure of Mitterrand's reforms).



Thanks for that, I’ll definitely track that down.

On a related point Stuart Holland’s essay here:





__





						Manchester University Press - Reassessing 1970s Britain
					

Reassessing 1970s Britain - Browse and buy the Hardcover edition of Reassessing 1970s Britain by Lawrence Black




					manchesteruniversitypress.co.uk
				




is really interesting as he discuss how he attempted to convince Wilson - and failed - that European wide planning and a European industrial strategy could reign in the developing threats to jobs from multinationals and the effect on sterling. As I said earlier the multiple challenges of the 70’s would have posed significant threats to Britain’s corporatist politics regardless of whether it entered the common market or not. But the interesting point in Holland’s essay is how even from the outset the prevailing politics within Europe almost predicted the onset of neoliberalism and actively worked against the model that Britain had adopted after WW2.

ETA: And of course Holland was ideologically committed to the EU. As the next essay in the books notes ‘the Labour Party - then firmly opposed to the EU - could tolerate his socialism but not his Europhile views’.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Aug 10, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Socialist utopia any day now we've left the EU.


Comrade Corbyn would have left and joined the Comintern, if he hadn't been stabbed in the back by centrists.


----------



## Badgers (Aug 10, 2021)

Going well here... 





__





						Emergency Brexit powers for lorry queues to be made permanent | Brexit | The Guardian
					






					amp-theguardian-com.cdn.ampproject.org


----------



## Ax^ (Aug 10, 2021)

it project fear clearly the dastardly left tories are trying to spook the working class with the help of the Guardian


----------



## brogdale (Aug 10, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Going well here...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


All the roads I have to use weekly to get down to the old folks are to be permanently FUBAR.
Great.


----------



## Ax^ (Aug 10, 2021)

Fubar that a little german for these times


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 10, 2021)




----------



## Ax^ (Aug 10, 2021)

*ponders

 as he lost that job not shortly after


----------



## Ax^ (Aug 10, 2021)

which lost are you angry with?


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 10, 2021)

sleaterkinney said:


> Comrade Corbyn would have left and joined the Comintern, if he hadn't been stabbed in the back by centrists.


By the rightist deviationists and their blairite-brownist wrecker friends


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 10, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> which lost are you angry with?


The people who sacked you of course


----------



## Ax^ (Aug 10, 2021)

Sack me i tell people to go fuck themselves


tyvm


----------



## Ax^ (Aug 10, 2021)

not sure if an article from 2018 is fair play whilst bring up the achievements of another tory parasite


----------



## gosub (Aug 10, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> View attachment 283020


 Not seeing the relevance, have you fallen down a QAnon rabbithole or something?


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 10, 2021)

gosub said:


> Not seeing the relevance, have you fallen down a QAnon rabbithole or something?


Ha ha . Just stressing how the importance of staying in the EU ( and this fella was a Labour member )  should override everything else.


----------



## MrSki (Aug 10, 2021)




----------



## Steel Icarus (Aug 10, 2021)

Brexit voters are thick trope kkaxon


----------



## krtek a houby (Aug 10, 2021)

Brexit voters are visionaries, it's high time they are lauded as such.

Anything else is just sour grapes from shelf obsessed remaniacs.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Aug 10, 2021)

S☼I said:


> Brexit voters are thick trope kkaxon



Much of what passes for liberal left politics is shot through with these tropes, along with occasional outbursts of pent up fury when the opportunity can be constructed to attack the marginalised.


----------



## Supine (Aug 10, 2021)

Free plants thanks to Brexit. Get involved if you live in the south west.









						Brexit forces garden centre to sell plants for free
					

The Plants Galore centres in Plymouth, Newton Abbot and Exeter will be giving away plants this weekend as they do not have the staff needed to look after them




					www.devonlive.com


----------



## Yossarian (Aug 10, 2021)

Supine said:


> Free plants thanks to Brexit. Get involved if you live in the south west.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



"Best planted in sunlit uplands."


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 10, 2021)

No empty shelves there


----------



## MrSki (Aug 10, 2021)

Supine said:


> Free plants thanks to Brexit. Get involved if you live in the south west.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I live in the South West but think this is terrible. I am glad they are giving them away rather than letting them die but they will probably go under. 
I also work in a Garden Centre & plant prices wholesale are on the up.


----------



## krtek a houby (Aug 11, 2021)

MrSki said:


> I live in the South West but think this is terrible. I am glad they are giving them away rather than letting them die but they will probably go under.
> I also work in a Garden Centre & plant prices wholesale are on the up.



Enough of your plant up fury


----------



## extra dry (Aug 11, 2021)

Plant them on roadsides and roundabouts, the locals will like it.


----------



## MrSki (Aug 11, 2021)

Still all will be good once we are all dead.


----------



## brogdale (Aug 11, 2021)

Why are all you (continuity) remoaniacs banging on about rising food prices? Here is clear evidence that prices will be lower:


----------



## Supine (Aug 11, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Why are all you (continuity) remoaniacs banging on about rising food prices? Here is clear evidence that prices will be lower:
> 
> View attachment 283089



Lower tariffs on HGV entering the UK. LOL - you couldn't make it up.


----------



## Chilli.s (Aug 11, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Why are all you (continuity) remoaniacs banging on about rising food prices? Here is clear evidence that prices will be lower:
> 
> View attachment 283089


Written by fantasists, people can say any old shyte is going to happen. Seems it rarely does


----------



## Ax^ (Aug 11, 2021)

you can put about as much faith in the document as Boris has in his marriage vows


----------



## krtek a houby (Aug 11, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Why are all you (continuity) remoaniacs banging on about rising food prices? Here is clear evidence that prices will be lower:
> 
> View attachment 283089



Good news for all the wine drinking tennis players.


----------



## MrSki (Aug 11, 2021)




----------



## gosub (Aug 11, 2021)

MrSki said:


>


Fair enough.


----------



## MrSki (Aug 11, 2021)




----------



## Steel Icarus (Aug 11, 2021)

Isn't there already a "shit Brexit memes" thread?


----------



## MrSki (Aug 11, 2021)

S☼I said:


> Isn't there already a "shit Brexit memes" thread?


No but if you start one I will be happy to contribute to it.


----------



## Raheem (Aug 11, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> Enough of your plant up fury


Please try to avoid these gardening puns in fuchsia.


----------



## krtek a houby (Aug 11, 2021)

Raheem said:


> Please try to avoid these gardening puns in fuchsia.


Leaf means leaf


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 11, 2021)

Raheem said:


> Please try to avoid these gardening puns in fuchsia.


Yes, let our watchword be xylem is golden


----------



## andysays (Aug 11, 2021)

S☼I said:


> Isn't there already a "shit Brexit memes" thread?


This seems to have been the go to "shit Brexit memes and everything else" thread from the start, TBH


----------



## Ax^ (Aug 11, 2021)

if only someone could  come up with a benifit of leaving the thread might not have last 176 pages


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 11, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> if only someone could  come up with a benifit of leaving the thread might not have last 176 pages


The benefit of leaving the thread is not having to read the next 176 pages


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 11, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> if only someone could  come up with a benifit of leaving the thread might not have last 176 pages


The main benefit of leaving is not being in the EU any more.


----------



## Ax^ (Aug 11, 2021)

and the main benefit of not being in it is?


----------



## Badgers (Aug 11, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> The main benefit of leaving is not being in the EU any more.


USA, Australia and India incoming  

Let the world burn


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 11, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> and the main benefit of not being in it is?



Not being in it!

If someone subscribed you to the Ku Klux Klan when you were born, wouldn't you leave it when you got the chance?


----------



## Badgers (Aug 11, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Not being in it!
> 
> If someone subscribed you to the Ku Klux Klan when you were born, wouldn't you leave it when you got the chance?


No... 

I would rush to the UK to avoid racism, rampant corruption and misery.


----------



## Supine (Aug 11, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Not being in it!
> 
> If someone subscribed you to the Ku Klux Klan when you were born, wouldn't you leave it when you got the chance?



If you equate the kkk with a union of nations collaborating for the people of Europe no wonder you wanted to leave. Silly idea though


----------



## andysays (Aug 11, 2021)

Supine said:


> If you equate the kkk with a union of nations collaborating for the people of Europe no wonder you wanted to leave. Silly idea though


If you really think the EU is a union of nations collaborating for the people, no wonder you wanted to stay. Silly idea though


----------



## Ax^ (Aug 11, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Not being in it!
> 
> If someone subscribed you to the Ku Klux Klan when you were born, wouldn't you leave it when you got the chance?



never stopped people voting tory

also all the reason for leaving EU 
are reason the English Union should be broken up


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 11, 2021)

Supine said:


> If you equate the kkk with a union of nations collaborating for the people of Europe no wonder you wanted to leave.



But you'd leave the KKK because you disagree with their structure/political ambitions/leadership etc, etc,... no?

(I voted remain, btw)


----------



## Ax^ (Aug 11, 2021)

Do like the idea you have the KKK on one side as the EU

and Who are Farrage, UKip and Boris and Gove suppose to be the Martin JR and the Cival rights movement?


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 11, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Not being in it!
> 
> If someone subscribed you to the Ku Klux Klan when you were born, wouldn't you leave it when you got the chance?


Then you'd be sent the five orange pips


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 11, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> also all the reason for leaving EU
> are reason the English Union should be broken up



There wasn't a referendum on that though.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 11, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> There wasn't a referendum on that though.


It's coming even so


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 11, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> Do like the idea you have the KKK on one side as the EU


----------



## Supine (Aug 11, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> But you'd leave the KKK because you disagree with their structure/political ambitions/leadership etc, etc,... no?
> 
> (I voted remain, btw)



I’m pretty sure the kkk wouldn’t want me as a member


----------



## two sheds (Aug 11, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> There wasn't a referendum on that though.


That's what all you Remainers say


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 11, 2021)

Supine said:


> I’m pretty sure the kkk wouldn’t want me as a member



Same here. I reckon they might be a bit racist.


----------



## Supine (Aug 11, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Same here. I reckon they might be a bit racist.



Yeah, definitely brexiteers

(not all brexiteers are racist)


----------



## Ax^ (Aug 11, 2021)

Supine said:


> Yeah, definitely brexiteers
> 
> (not all brexiteers are racist)



aye and not all racist are Tories

just a bit of an overlap in a venn diagram


----------



## Yossarian (Aug 11, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> Do like the idea you have the KKK on one side as the EU
> 
> and Who are Farrage, UKip and Boris and Gove suppose to be the Martin JR and the Cival rights movement?



Who can forget Farage's brave sit-in at a Brussels lunch counter that wouldn't let him pay in pounds.


----------



## two sheds (Aug 11, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> (I voted remain, btw)


what changed your mind?


----------



## bimble (Aug 11, 2021)

two sheds said:


> what changed your mind?


cheaper tennis rackets and wines. Honey from New Zealand.


----------



## Ax^ (Aug 11, 2021)

guessing he might have an irish passport


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 11, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> guessing he might have an irish passport


----------



## Dystopiary (Aug 11, 2021)

Well that's another thing - if Brexit's so great, how come loads of Brits have scrambled to get an Irish passport? 
(Does anyone know the figures for that actually?) 
Plus plenty of others have applied for other EU passports (again, I don't have statistics.)


----------



## Saul Goodman (Aug 11, 2021)

Dystopiary said:


> Well that's another thing - if Brexit's so great, how come loads of Brits have scrambled to get an Irish passport?


Because Ireland's fucking ace


----------



## bimble (Aug 11, 2021)

Dystopiary said:


> Well that's another thing - if Brexit's so great, how come loads of Brits have scrambled to get an Irish passport?
> (Does anyone know the figures for that actually?)
> Plus plenty of others have applied for other EU passports (again, I don't have statistics.)


Only Remoaners did that.


----------



## Ax^ (Aug 11, 2021)

Saul Goodman said:


> Because Ireland's fucking ace



i cannie argue with that


----------



## Dystopiary (Aug 11, 2021)

Saul Goodman said:


> Because Ireland's fucking ace


I mean since the referendum compared to before, but yes, obvs!


----------



## krtek a houby (Aug 11, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> The main benefit of leaving is not being in the EU any more.



The main benefit is the occupied 6 counties being free and Scotland leaving the Union.

The break up of the UK is a wonder to behold.


----------



## Badgers (Aug 11, 2021)

#ToryScum 

Will keep on saying this ^ because Brexit was built on lies and we are governed by liars. Anyone diverting the attention to the EU is a cunt imo. 

Anyone think for all their faults think that the EU is a terrible thing is blind to Tory Britain and the future it will give our old age and our children then FUCK YOU. Your house is already worth enough and you pay little in tax so FUCK YOU and your families.


----------



## Badgers (Aug 11, 2021)

Saul Goodman said:


> Because Ireland's fucking ace


My mates from the old country disagree. As do the protest posters on all the city streets


----------



## Ax^ (Aug 11, 2021)

Ireland has it problems to

imagine the shock after 200 or so years of migration

the idea of People moving to eira, plus it always be quite USA centric and has targeted by the the right wing

it like England 20 years ago sadly but only because of the smaller poplulation


----------



## krtek a houby (Aug 11, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> Ireland has it problems to
> 
> imagine the shock after 200 or so years of migration
> 
> ...



US religious groups have been targeting referendums in Ireland, so there's that. And there's a rise of fash which has some strange alliances with groups in the UK and across the British border. There are also concerns about British people coming to live in Ireland and how they might influence local politics and the culture.

It's a mad old mix.


----------



## Ax^ (Aug 11, 2021)

Aye i'm from Finglas/Ballymun an area of dublin looked down on for being rough and barely working class


going home is a mad mix of annoyance with people and just causes for disappointment

still a grand place but


----------



## krtek a houby (Aug 11, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> Aye i'm from Finglas an area of dublin looked down on for being rough and barely working class
> 
> 
> going home is a mad mix of annoyance with people and just causes for disappointment
> ...



There's every need for protests. The FFFG unholy alliance to keep Sinn Fein out of government, the housing and homelessness situation etc.

Need to go home soon.


----------



## Ax^ (Aug 11, 2021)

Tell me about it missed the grannies 87 birthday because of covid have not been home in 20 months :/

could not afford well telling my job what i was doing 

Plus the accent kind stands out back home now with the 5 mile stuff that was in place


----------



## klang (Aug 11, 2021)

speaking as a non-british European, I'd like to state that imo Britain should have had its EU membership withdrawn long before the referendum. Geographically it never made sense. hth.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Aug 11, 2021)

Supine said:


> a union of nations collaborating for the people of Europe


----------



## krtek a houby (Aug 11, 2021)

klang said:


> speaking as a non-british European, I'd like to state that imo Britain should have had its EU membership withdrawn long before the referendum. Geographically it never made sense. hth.



They'll be grand. They've got a union of  nations collaborating for the people of the UK.


----------



## Supine (Aug 11, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


>




Well i never said collaboration was easy, and it isn’t when it comes to attempted monetary union between disparate economies. It doesn’t mean being separationist offers any significant benefits though.


----------



## MrSki (Aug 11, 2021)

I really am finding it hard to keep up with all the Brexit benefits. 

It is exhausting.


----------



## Supine (Aug 11, 2021)

MrSki said:


> I really am finding it hard to keep up with all the Brexit benefits.
> 
> It is exhausting.



come on man, check out the colour of those passports.


----------



## Colin Hunt (Aug 11, 2021)

Supine said:


> Well i never said collaboration was easy, and it isn’t when it comes to attempted monetary union between disparate economies. It doesn’t mean being separationist offers any significant benefits though.


Thanks to EU-mandated labour law reforms manufacturing workers in Portugal will soon be paid less per hour than Chinese manufacturing workers, and the average hourly wage in Greece fell by over 50% in a 7-year period. Being separationist in that context would probably mean a better deal for Greek and Portuguese working people. 

I don't want to get sucked in to debates about woolly stuff like 'collaboration' and 'sovereignty' because there's no point to it. If we accept that the EU and the UK are both neoliberal hellscapes, what makes one better than the other? 

To use a possibly shit analogy, think of a neoliberal UK as a burning boat. Bringing up the EU and the referendum is akin to wanting to be on another burning boat which you think has slightly nicer furniture. I'd rather we all mucked in and tried to put the fire out.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 11, 2021)

Colin Hunt said:


> Thanks to EU-mandated labour law reforms manufacturing workers in Portugal will soon be paid less per hour than Chinese manufacturing workers, and the average hourly wage in Greece fell by over 50% in a 7-year period. Being separationist in that context would probably mean a better deal for Greek and Portuguese working people.
> 
> I don't want to get sucked in to debates about woolly stuff like 'collaboration' and 'sovereignty' because there's no point to it. If we accept that the EU and the UK are both neoliberal hellscapes, what makes one better than the other?
> 
> To use a possibly shit analogy, think of a neoliberal UK as a burning boat. Bringing up the EU and the referendum is akin to wanting to be on another burning boat which you think has slightly nicer furniture. I'd rather we all mucked in and tried to put the fire out.


Do you have a link for these law reforms?


----------



## Serge Forward (Aug 11, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> Leaf means leaf


Control of our (herbaceous) borders!


----------



## Artaxerxes (Aug 12, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> US religious groups have been targeting referendums in Ireland, so there's that. And there's a rise of fash which has some strange alliances with groups in the UK and across the British border. There are also concerns about British people coming to live in Ireland and how they might influence local politics and the culture.
> 
> It's a mad old mix.



A great deal of fash US money was involved in pushing for brexit - particularly in norn I believe.









						MP demands investigation into Farage’s US, dark money pro-Brexit campaign group
					

Stark warning of US-style Super PACs arriving in UK as Brexit Party leader launches dark-money-funded campaign group in New York.




					www.opendemocracy.net


----------



## Colin Hunt (Aug 12, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Do you have a link for these law reforms?


I (very) briefly summarised some of the law reforms in question in the last 3 paragraphs of this post. If you'd like more details on the reforms demanded by the EC and IMF your best bet is probably to look at the economic adjustment programmes for Greece and Portugal. The first Greek programme is set out here. The second Greek programme is set out here and contains a summary of some of the changes to Greek labour laws made in response to the first programme, as well as recommendations for further action (pp. 37-41). The Portuguese programme is set out here.

If you'd like more details on the implementation of the reforms, and their effects on collective bargaining, wages, and working time, here are a few papers to check out:

Stefan Clauwaert & Isabelle Schömann, _The crisis and national labour law reforms: a mapping exercise _(European Trade Union Institute 2012) (Available free online)
Aristea Koukiadaki, Miguel Martinez Lucio and Isabel Tavora, _The Legacy of Thatcherism in European Labour Relations: The Impact of the Politics of Neo-Liberalism and Austerity on Collective Bargaining in a Fragmenting Europe_ (Institute of Employment Rights 2017) (Also free and probably the easiest read out of the 4 linked papers)
Keith Ewing, 'The Death of Social Europe' (2015) 26(1) _King's Law Journal_ 76 (Paywalled but available for free online elsewhere)
Aristea Koukiadaki and Lefteris Kretsos, 'Opening Pandora’s Box: The Sovereign Debt Crisis and Labour Market Regulation in Greece' (2012) 41(3) _Industrial Law Journal_ 276 (Same as above)

My sources for the claims about wages are a pair of Euromonitor International reports entitled 'Wage per Hour' and 'Wage per Hour in Manufacturing' that were both released in 2017. Sadly I can't link to them but for commentary on both reports chapter 7 of Julian Germann, _Unwitting Architect: German Primacy and the Origins of Neoliberalism_ (Stanford University Press 2021) is a good read. It is also available for free online.


----------



## MrSki (Aug 12, 2021)

So not looking too good for car electric car production in Wales.


----------



## Raheem (Aug 12, 2021)

Leave means leave.


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 12, 2021)

December 2020 means December 2020


----------



## gosub (Aug 12, 2021)

MrSki said:


> So not looking too good for car electric car production in Wales.



That might be a fuck up but actually positioned itself quite well with regards electric cars....Trouble is think the future is hydrogen cell  (even worse there are currently only 3 hydrogen cell refill stations in the UK.....we may be BETAMAXing


----------



## andysays (Aug 13, 2021)

Good news for creatives 

Photographer, farmer and plasterer job ads rise



> The first week of August saw 1.7m active job ads in the UK, new research has found. *Job ads for photographers and broadcasting equipment operators saw the largest rise, up 19% on last week*, according to the Recruitment & Employment Confederation (REC).


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 13, 2021)

The EU are going to _*MURDER *_millions of stray dogs and cats 

Tip of the iceberg. First they came for the strays ....










						The strays in Europe
					

The domestic dog has a predisposition to exhibit a social intelligence that is uncommon in the animal world - the neglected and homeless dogs suffer heavily , both physically and mentally .



					www.esdaw.eu


----------



## Artaxerxes (Aug 13, 2021)

andysays said:


> Good news for creatives
> 
> Photographer, farmer and plasterer job ads rise






> OccupationUnique active job postings, 2-8 AugustChange in active job postings, 26 July-1 August to 2-8 AugustPhotographers, audio-visual and broadcasting equipment operators1,50619.3%Insurance underwriters1,66715.5%Farm workers4899.2%Plasterers1,0028.2%Launderers, dry cleaners and pressers3757.8%Painters and decorators3,6754.7%Postal workers, mail sorters, messengers and couriers1,4644.3%Electrical and electronics technicians8353.7%Chartered architectural technologists3943.7%Credit controllers3,3273.5%-  Butchers321-6.4%Refuse and salvage occupations1,677-6.5%Sewing machinists485-6.6%Hotel and accommodation managers and proprietors922-7.8%Market research interviewers1,160-8.8%Bakers and flour confectioners418-9.3%Health associate professionals n.e.c.1,005-9.9%Elementary security occupations n.e.c.315-10.3%Teaching and other educational professionals n.e.c.10,401-14.7%Playworkers487-20.6%











						Jobs Recovery Tracker: Number of new job adverts ramps up after final COVID restrictions lifted :: The REC
					

In the week of 2-8 August, there were a total of 1.65 million active job adverts in the UK, according to the Recruitment & Employment Confederation (REC)’s latest Jobs Recovery Tracker.




					www.rec.uk.com


----------



## krtek a houby (Aug 13, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> The EU are going to _*MURDER *_millions of stray dogs and cats
> 
> Tip of the iceberg. First they came for the strays ....
> 
> ...



Hmmm



Spymaster said:


> Christ. What is it about cats that makes people lose their fucking minds.


----------



## editor (Aug 13, 2021)

andysays said:


> Good news for creatives
> 
> Photographer, farmer and plasterer job ads rise


What's that got to do with Brexit?

The article makes no mention of Brexit but does however state:



> The spike comes in the three weeks since Covid restrictions were lifted.





Artaxerxes said:


> Jobs Recovery Tracker: Number of new job adverts ramps up after final COVID restrictions lifted :: The REC
> 
> 
> In the week of 2-8 August, there were a total of 1.65 million active job adverts in the UK, according to the Recruitment & Employment Confederation (REC)’s latest Jobs Recovery Tracker.
> ...


And no mention here either. Why are you posting up off topic and irrelevant news?


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 13, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> The EU are going to _*MURDER *_millions of stray dogs and cats
> 
> Tip of the iceberg. First they came for the strays ....
> 
> ...


We’ve got a People Animals Nature Party here with four seats in the Assembly . Sort of like a cross between the Greens and the Cats Protection League


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 13, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> Hmmm


Errrr ... kind of the point!


----------



## MrSki (Aug 15, 2021)

Well I suppose it is what they voted for.


----------



## Badgers (Aug 15, 2021)

Raheem said:


> Leave means leave.


All the businesses leave? 

That was not on the side of the bus I saw. At least the NHS are getting their £350m windfall #ToryScum


----------



## Badgers (Aug 15, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> The EU are going to _*MURDER *_millions of stray dogs and cats
> 
> Tip of the iceberg. First they came for the strays ....
> 
> ...


If it is a choice between cats/dogs and wildlife I can't see an issue here.


----------



## Dogsauce (Aug 15, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> The EU are going to _*MURDER *_millions of stray dogs and cats
> 
> Tip of the iceberg. First they came for the strays ....
> 
> ...


That’s great. The pavements here in Portugal are strewn with dogshit from all the strays, and they’ve been known to chase cyclists in packs (experienced this myself on a couple of occasions). Get rid.


----------



## Dogsauce (Aug 15, 2021)

andysays said:


> Good news for creatives
> 
> Photographer, farmer and plasterer job ads rise


Hmmm, I wonder what organisation might be desperately seeking Broadcast Equipment Engineers right now...


----------



## quiet guy (Aug 15, 2021)




----------



## Badgers (Aug 16, 2021)




----------



## Maggot (Aug 16, 2021)

Brexit has brought no benefits, UK manufacturers say
					

There are no benefits as a result of Brexit, Make UK, an organisation representing UK manufacturers has said.




					www.thelondoneconomic.com


----------



## Badgers (Aug 16, 2021)

At least we have blue/black passports (made in the EU and flogged to us) and increasing racism. 

#worldbeating


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 16, 2021)




----------



## brogdale (Aug 16, 2021)

Lordy.


----------



## extra dry (Aug 16, 2021)

The39thStep said:


>



fairly good harmony but they are all a bit loopy.


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 16, 2021)

The39thStep said:


>




I though bimble's red headband thing was quite fetching.


----------



## gosub (Aug 16, 2021)

extra dry said:


> fairly good harmony but they are all a bit loopy.


Well if they are still trying to influence what May and Corbyn do quite happy to leave them to it


----------



## editor (Aug 16, 2021)

Maggot said:


> Brexit has brought no benefits, UK manufacturers say
> 
> 
> There are no benefits as a result of Brexit, Make UK, an organisation representing UK manufacturers has said.
> ...


And yet some people keep on insisting that Brexit is a good thing...



> There are no benefits as a result of Brexit, an organisation representing UK manufacturers has said.
> 
> According to Make UK, it is currently hard for manufacturers to see any advantages from leaving the EU, and the organisation warns exports  to the bloc could become a permanent problem if the government does not step in.
> 
> ...


----------



## 19sixtysix (Aug 16, 2021)

Off to Spain tomorrow. Can't take friend their requested lump of cheddar legally.


----------



## two sheds (Aug 16, 2021)

19sixtysix said:


> Can't take friend their requested lump of cheddar legally.


----------



## two sheds (Aug 16, 2021)

You do have to say that Cornwall got a lot of EU investment over the years 









						Where did all the EU cash go in Cornwall?
					

What has the money from Europe been used for in Cornwall?




					www.cornwalllive.com


----------



## extra dry (Aug 17, 2021)

19sixtysix said:


> Off to Spain tomorrow. Can't take friend their requested lump of cheddar legally.


Just wrap it up tightly in clingfilm and insert inside your body, if its not too big or square shaped.  

Or put the cheese in a false bottom, in one of your families luggage.


----------



## krtek a houby (Aug 17, 2021)

The39thStep said:


>




Like Brexit, the Summer Holiday sequel didn't quite live up to expectations


----------



## Loose meat (Aug 17, 2021)

editor said:


> And yet some people keep on insisting that Brexit is a good thing...




Some of my fav lines from their 'About Us':


> We are run largely by a *volunteer team* of journalists and contributors who espouse our values as a news organisation.
> The London Economic was founded in 2013 by Jack Peat and Joe Mellor* as a blog* sharing platform for likeminded journalists and bloggers.


----------



## Loose meat (Aug 17, 2021)

Meanwhile at the, err ... _checks notes_ ... BBC wages are up, and then up more, and there is a record number of vacancies. Which is obv. wishful employers still thiking it's 2016: UK job vacancies at record high as wages tick up

UK job vacancies at record high as wages tick up​


----------



## brogdale (Aug 17, 2021)

Must be some "good news" for the bosses and their political wing; Chubby's back.


----------



## Loose meat (Aug 17, 2021)

I missed the anti-democractic, poverty-supporting blogging from a south American jungle clearing.


----------



## Supine (Aug 17, 2021)

Simpsons are trolling us


----------



## Loose meat (Aug 17, 2021)

and goodness knows how valuable a USA cartoon is alongside the (above) amateur blogger. It's a double win for the intellectual rigour of jungle-clearing Remainers.

Esp. when measured against the simple fools at the Office of National Statistics and the BBC.


----------



## brogdale (Aug 17, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> I missed the anti-democractic, poverty-supporting blogging from a south American jungle clearing.


"...blogging..."?
I know the mean age is quite high on here, but just how ancient are you Chubby?


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 17, 2021)

Afghanistan: Macron demands 'robust' EU plan against illegal migration
					

Macron warned in a televised address on Monday that "the destabilisation of Afghanistan also risks leading to irregular migratory flows towards Europe".




					www.euronews.com
				












						UK looking at bespoke Afghan refugee scheme - Dominic Raab
					

The foreign secretary says the UK is a "big-hearted nation" and full details will be set out soon.



					www.bbc.co.uk
				




Macron looking very keen to keep Aghan refugees (sorry, "irregular migratory flows") out of Europe whilst the UK puts together a plan to take more.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Aug 17, 2021)

The shittest hot take ever…


----------



## Maggot (Aug 17, 2021)

FFS


----------



## Loose meat (Aug 17, 2021)

brogdale said:


> "...blogging..."?
> I know the mean age is quite high on here, but just how ancient are you Chubby?


It's their self-description, as above. tbh, I wouldn't rate them that high.


----------



## gosub (Aug 17, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> The shittest hot take ever…





zahir said:


>






kebabking said:


> The sole German plane to leave Kabul last night, an A400M cargo plane that normal carries 116 troops, but could in extremis, carry perhaps 300, took off carrying 7.
> 
> Yes, 7.
> 
> It's not just that it took 7 when it could have taken 300, it's that it took up a landing slot that someone else could have used, and maybe took an air-to-air refuelling slot that someone else could have taken, and then a landing slot in Kuwait or wherever.


----------



## Loose meat (Aug 17, 2021)

The EU Army idea reminds me of an old joke:

The reason the USA couuldn't persuade the Germans to participate in its Iraq invasion was the USA couldn't convince them it was violence, death and destruction on a grand enough scale for Germany to be bothered with.

I mean, really, Germany is not going to get out of bed for Afghanistan. 150 divisions marching east? Now you're talking.


----------



## kebabking (Aug 17, 2021)

The French ambassador, like the British Ambassador, is at Kabul airport acting as a consular official - dishing out visas and emergency travel documents.

The US ambassador has, while clutching his precious, giant flag, long gone.

The Irish government, because they refuse to learn the lessons of every previous NEO, don't have any aircraft capable of helping, so they are sponging rides off everyone else.

I'm surprised at the Swedes and the Danes, they are normally diplomatic teams people in dire straits can rely on...


----------



## Ax^ (Aug 17, 2021)

19sixtysix said:


> Off to Spain tomorrow. Can't take friend their requested lump of cheddar legally.



best way  to avoid customs is to plug it


----------



## ska invita (Aug 17, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> The EU Army idea reminds me of an old joke:
> 
> The reason the USA couuldn't persuade the Germans to participate in its Iraq invasion was the USA couldn't convince them it was violence, death and destruction on a grand enough scale for Germany to be bothered with.
> 
> I mean, really, Germany is not going to get out of bed for Afghanistan. 150 divisions marching east? Now you're talking.


What are you wittering about?


----------



## Loose meat (Aug 17, 2021)

Challenging, isn't it. Bless


----------



## ska invita (Aug 17, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> Challenging, isn't it. Bless


Explain your joke


----------



## Loose meat (Aug 17, 2021)

Exactly.


----------



## Ax^ (Aug 17, 2021)

funny for the Germans that they only lost 53 people in 20 years of pointless warfare


----------



## ska invita (Aug 17, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> Exactly.


heres a joke for you








						First Anglo-Afghan War - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				











						Second Anglo-Afghan War - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				











						Third Anglo-Afghan War - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				











						Helmand province campaign - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				



see todays newspaper for the punchline - as funny as yours


----------



## krtek a houby (Aug 17, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> Challenging, isn't it. Bless


Why do you exist?


----------



## Loose meat (Aug 17, 2021)

How do you know I exist.


----------



## Loose meat (Aug 17, 2021)

The USA military couldn't do the job in 20 years so stand back everyone, we''re sending in the ... _checks notes_ ... EU Army.

The same people who refused a vaccine and then couldn't roll one out anyway without fighting among themselves. .


----------



## krtek a houby (Aug 17, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> How do you know I exist.



... checks notes ... you're on a mission


----------



## krtek a houby (Aug 17, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> The USA military couldn't do the job in 20 years so stand back everyone, we''re sending in the ... _checks notes_ ... EU Army.



People are dying, you point scoring cunt


----------



## Loose meat (Aug 17, 2021)

They were dying either way you fuckwit. It was an occupation, you see.


----------



## krtek a houby (Aug 17, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> They were dying either way you fuckwit. It was an occupation, you see.



No shit... great brains on you... you one trick pony arse


----------



## Loose meat (Aug 17, 2021)

you one trick nazi arse!


----------



## Loose meat (Aug 17, 2021)

Got to leave you boys in the jungle now. Pick up some firewood if you can and mind the free drinks.


----------



## krtek a houby (Aug 17, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> Got to leave you boys in the jungle now. Pick up some firewood if you can and mind the free drinks.



Don't forget. Leave means ... checks notes ... leave


----------



## Cerv (Aug 17, 2021)

What the fuck has anything about the tragic situation in Afghanistan got to do with Brexit?
Nothing at all.


----------



## Loose meat (Aug 17, 2021)

Well the answer, appaently, is an EU Army. I dunno, ask James o'Brian.

Led presumably by the germans, becasue they have the resources and a track record in ... _checks notes_ ... peacekeeping and occupation.


----------



## hitmouse (Aug 17, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> Got to leave you boys in the jungle now. Pick up some firewood if you can and mind the free drinks.


My local big Tesco used to do a nice thing of cherries for _checks notes_ 95p. Now they're not selling them anymore. Explain that one to me, you absolute wild rocket.


----------



## Maggot (Aug 17, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> The EU Army idea reminds me of an old joke:
> 
> The reason the USA couuldn't persuade the Germans to participate in its Iraq invasion was the USA couldn't convince them it was violence, death and destruction on a grand enough scale for Germany to be bothered with.
> 
> I mean, really, Germany is not going to get out of bed for Afghanistan. 150 divisions marching east? Now you're talking.





Loose meat said:


> you one trick nazi arse!





Loose meat said:


> Well the answer, appaently, is an EU Army. I dunno, ask James o'Brian.
> 
> Led presumably by the germans, becasue they have the resources and a track record in ... _checks notes_ ... peacekeeping and occupation.


You have an obsession with a war that ended 76 years ago.  The Germans have moved on, it's a shame you haven't.


----------



## two sheds (Aug 17, 2021)

Isn't it strange how right wing loons so often accuse people of being nazis at the drop of a hat. Almost as if they're trying to minimize what the nazis did.


----------



## editor (Aug 17, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> Challenging, isn't it. Bless


And off this thread you go.


----------



## Ax^ (Aug 17, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> The USA military couldn't do the job in 20 years so stand back everyone, we''re sending in the ... _checks notes_ ... EU Army.
> 
> The same people who refused a vaccine and then couldn't roll one out anyway without fighting among themselves. .


what are you fucking mumbling about most EU troops pulled out in June


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 17, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Isn't it strange how right wing loons so often accuse people of being nazis at the drop of a hat. Almost as if they're trying to minimize what the nazis did.


To be fair the terms  nazi and fascism is bandied about so frequently by  the right and elements of the left that they start to lose their meaning.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Aug 17, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> To be fair the terms  nazi and fascism is bandied about so frequently by  the right and elements of the left that they start to lose their meaning.



Everyone's a fascist now...except the ones who actually are. Fortunately, Paul Mason has got a book out explaining how all of this works.


----------



## Supine (Aug 17, 2021)

Next they came for Nando. But the bbc didn’t mention the B word.









						Nando's shuts restaurants as it runs short of supplies
					

The chain says it will lend some of its own staff to its suppliers, to help tackle delays to deliveries.



					www.bbc.com


----------



## andysays (Aug 17, 2021)

Supine said:


> Next they came for Nando. But the bbc didn’t mention the B word.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Everyone knows you can't trust the Brexit Bullshit Corporation - they're totally in the government's pocket over this


----------



## Cerv (Aug 17, 2021)

> Nando's said the shortages were not affecting any of their outlets in Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland.


Funny that. Must be no one getting exposed to covid there.


----------



## Ax^ (Aug 17, 2021)

ireland just gone back into lockdown

might be we have farmers


----------



## MrSki (Aug 17, 2021)

Now the  shit will really hit the fan.









						Taps run dry in UK pubs as lorry driver shortages hit beer supplies
					

Pubs are struggling with beer supplies because of lorry driver shortages, amid persistent havoc caused by Brexit across several sectors.




					www.thelondoneconomic.com


----------



## klang (Aug 17, 2021)

MrSki said:


> Now the  shit will really hit the fan.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


there's always wine.


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 17, 2021)

MrSki said:


> Now the  shit will really hit the fan.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## MrSki (Aug 17, 2021)

klang said:


> there's always wine.


Yeah until that runs out too. Still the post brexit deal with Australia will make it some thing like 27p cheaper. Oh wait those savings will be lost in transportation costs from the ports. 
There is always homebrew.


----------



## two sheds (Aug 17, 2021)

MrSki said:


> Yeah until that runs out too. Still the post brexit deal with Australia will make it some thing like 27p cheaper. Oh wait those savings will be lost in transportation costs from the ports.
> There is always homebrew.


I get those party-seven wines from australia and they are more than 27p cheaper


----------



## Ax^ (Aug 17, 2021)

boxed wine


----------



## two sheds (Aug 17, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> boxed wine


----------



## Raheem (Aug 18, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> boxed wine


What Ronnie Barker asks for when he wants twine to put around his boxes.


----------



## Badgers (Aug 18, 2021)




----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 18, 2021)

MrSki said:


> Now the  shit will really hit the fan.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I reckon Johnson's thinking about introducing rationing in another attempt to appear Churchillian


----------



## ruffneck23 (Aug 18, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> I reckon Johnson's thinking about introducing rationing in another attempt to appear Churchillian


For fucks sake dont give them ideas


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 18, 2021)

Up the workers





__





						Beer supplies threatened as draymen prepare to strike
					

https://www.cips.org/Draymen%20from%20one%20of%20the%20UK%E2%80%99s%20biggest%20beer%20suppliers%20are%20due%20to%20strike%20ahead%20of%20the%20August%20bank%20holiday%20weekend%20in%20a%20dispute%20over%20pay.%20.ashx?width=300&quality=80



					www.cips.org


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Aug 18, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Up the workers
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Brilliant stuff. On the roads, in the alehouses, in construction, in the public sector workers have twigged the score. Hopefully at some point some of those professing to be on the left will do the same.


----------



## Badgers (Aug 18, 2021)

> This is before growers feel the impact of post-Brexit trade deals with large sugar producers such as Australia. It’s a concern for Lankfer, whose land is in international trade secretary Liz Truss’s constituency. He has twice hosted her at the farm to answer questions from growers.







__





						‘A perfect storm’: UK beet growers fear Brexit threatens their future | Brexit | The Guardian
					






					amp-theguardian-com.cdn.ampproject.org


----------



## Supine (Aug 18, 2021)

andysays said:


> Everyone knows you can't trust the Brexit Bullshit Corporation - they're totally in the government's pocket over this



Turns out bbc blaming a pingdemic and not brexit could have been misguided. What a surprise.









						Food industry supply chain chaos result of Brexit, British poultry association says
					

The comments came after Nando's announced that 45 of its restaurants would temporarily shut due to supply chain disruptions and KFC said some of its products would not be available.




					news.sky.com


----------



## MrSki (Aug 19, 2021)

What if you want apples?


----------



## MrSki (Aug 19, 2021)




----------



## ska invita (Aug 19, 2021)

MrSki said:


> What if you want apples?



In one supermarket I use theyve cut half the fruit and put pictures of the fruit in its place...I'll try and get a photo next time


----------



## Badgers (Aug 19, 2021)

ska invita said:


> In one supermarket I use theyve cut half the fruit and put pictures of the fruit in its place...I'll try and get a photo next time


Blagging   

Our local supermarkets have noticeably widened ailses and bulked out the products in stock. There are still empty shelves with signs stating 'high demand'  

Spoke to a couple of the usual staff and they said they had little or few staff off. Countered that by saying that they are all still getting shifts 🤷‍♂️ 

Guess they are toeing the government line? Or perhaps trying to stop panic buying? 

Pingdemic my fucking arse  you have to be desperate to pin any of this on Covid-19 rather than the Brexshit scam.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Aug 19, 2021)

Supine said:


> Turns out bbc blaming a pingdemic and not brexit could have been misguided. What a surprise.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I’ll translate that for you. The boss of KFC wants a return to endless reserves of cheap Labour and  does not want to pay staff properly so that they can run their business but at reduced profits. If KFC have got a staff shortage they could, you know, just recruit some unemployed workers and raise terms and conditions


----------



## andysays (Aug 19, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Blagging
> 
> Our local supermarkets have noticeably widened ailses and bulked out the products in stock. There are still empty shelves with signs stating 'high demand'
> 
> ...


Are your local supermarkets all run by the BBC?

I had no idea this conspiracy was so widespread


----------



## Badgers (Aug 19, 2021)

andysays said:


> Are your local supermarkets all run by the BBC?
> 
> I had no idea this conspiracy was so widespread


It is


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 19, 2021)

And they said The Matrix was fiction


----------



## editor (Aug 19, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I’ll translate that for you. The boss of KFC wants a return to endless reserves of cheap Labour and  does not want to pay staff properly so that they can run their business but at reduced profits. If KFC have got a staff shortage they could, you know, just recruit some unemployed workers and raise terms and conditions


And Brexit is going to fix this, how?

That said. I'd be only to happy so see the collapse of cruel, exploitative industries like the cheap chicken market and people made to pay a price that affords the animals a decent standard of welfare.


----------



## ska invita (Aug 19, 2021)

ska invita said:


> In one supermarket I use theyve cut half the fruit and put pictures of the fruit in its place...I'll try and get a photo next time



Spreading out what they've got too.
It could be a lot worse tbh


----------



## Supine (Aug 19, 2021)

ska invita said:


> View attachment 284288
> Spreading our what they've got too.
> It could be a lot worse tbh



How much are they selling photos of kiwi for?


----------



## ska invita (Aug 19, 2021)

Supine said:


> How much are they selling photos of kiwi for?


Bogof


----------



## 2hats (Aug 19, 2021)

Supine said:


> How much are they selling photos of kiwi for?


Diet kiwi.


----------



## Raheem (Aug 19, 2021)

Supine said:


> How much are they selling photos of kiwi for?


And what happens when they run out?


----------



## Supine (Aug 19, 2021)

Raheem said:


> And what happens when they run out?



Photocopies at half price


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 19, 2021)

ska invita said:


> View attachment 284288
> Spreading out what they've got too.
> It could be a lot worse tbh


Must say their melon variety and  prices are quite reasonable


----------



## ska invita (Aug 19, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Must say their melon variety and  prices are quite reasonable


Colonial exploitation is alive and well!


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Aug 19, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Bogof



there's no need to be rude about it


----------



## Badgers (Aug 19, 2021)

The chicken people are wrong about this. We have sovereign chickens 





__





						Not enough turkeys for Christmas due to Brexit, poultry producers warn | Farming | The Guardian
					






					amp-theguardian-com.cdn.ampproject.org


----------



## Yossarian (Aug 19, 2021)

Badgers said:


> The chicken people are wrong about this. We have sovereign chickens
> 
> 
> 
> ...



They're claiming the staff shortage isn't related to their poultry wages.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Aug 19, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> They're claiming the staff shortage isn't related to their poultry wages.



you can't expect people to work for chicken feed...


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Aug 19, 2021)

ska invita said:


> View attachment 284288
> Spreading out what they've got too.
> It could be a lot worse tbh


Mind you those kiwis are as big as melons. You never saw them that size before Brexit. Swings and roundabouts eh.


----------



## Badgers (Aug 19, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> They're claiming the staff shortage isn't related to their poultry wages.


Hopefully the farm staff are better paid. Also the logistics staff and all the other staff?


----------



## 8ball (Aug 19, 2021)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Mind you those kiwis are as big as melons. You never saw them that size before Brexit. Swings and roundabouts eh.



I'm holding out for the massive prawns.


----------



## Maltin (Aug 19, 2021)

MrSki said:


> This is not good & fucking up young people's education. I expect they should have applied for a visa but didn't realise.



Doesn't look like getting a visa for students is that straightforward either. What a surprise. What happened to the Erasmus replacement they proposed?









						Visa delays hit UK students heading to Spain to study
					

Students due to spend a year in Spain as part of their degree are hit with post-Brexit visa delays.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Aug 19, 2021)

Maltin said:


> What happened to the Erasmus replacement they proposed?



isn't there some new scheme that gives UK students the right to go and study in places like the falkland islands, instead?


----------



## brogdale (Aug 19, 2021)

Maltin said:


> Doesn't look like getting a visa for students is that straightforward either. What a surprise. What happened to the Erasmus replacement they proposed?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Perfectly straightforward to get a visa for courses at the University of West Ospringe's 'Outremer' Leysdown campus; why all the (continuity) remoaniac whingeing?


----------



## 2hats (Aug 19, 2021)

Puddy_Tat said:


> isn't there some new scheme that gives UK students the right to go and study in places like the *falkland islands*, instead?


Not yet an optimal destination for the purposes of learning Spanish.


----------



## brogdale (Aug 19, 2021)

My Tesco mega-bag of 30 assorted flavours crisps has just gone up from £2.85 to £3.00....yer Brexity feckers.


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 19, 2021)

2hats said:


> Not yet an optimal destination for the purposes of learning Spanish.


Be ok with Dualingo


----------



## Badgers (Aug 22, 2021)

#worldbeating 









						Shops, farms and restaurants turn to prisons to fill staff shortages
					

Food manufacturers and restaurants are scrambling to recruit prisoners to help ease the “desperate” shortage of workers caused by Covid-19 and Brexit.A lack of




					www.thetimes.co.uk


----------



## bimble (Aug 22, 2021)

Badgers said:


> #worldbeating
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Paywall. Does it say what is going on with prison Labour ??


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 22, 2021)

bimble said:


> Does it say what is going on with prison Labour ??



Hopefully that there's not enough of it.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Aug 22, 2021)

brogdale said:


> My Tesco mega-bag of 30 assorted flavours crisps has just gone up from £2.85 to £3.00....yer Brexity feckers.



You notice how after 2016 the standard 6 pack went from a quid to £1.25?

Same with pringles, quid on special offer now it's £1.50


----------



## ska invita (Aug 22, 2021)

Badgers said:


> #worldbeating
> 
> 
> 
> ...


"Recruit" 
Does it say what the pay is? Iirc prison pay is like £1 a day


----------



## Badgers (Aug 22, 2021)

ska invita said:


> "Recruit"
> Does it say what the pay is? Iirc prison pay is like £1 a day


The modern slavery sunlit upland benefit?


----------



## extra dry (Aug 22, 2021)

yeah, anyone want Turkey year round?


----------



## bimble (Aug 22, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Hopefully that there's not enough of it.


There is not. Found a version of the article, it says 'The Association of Independent Meat Suppliers is set to urge HM Prison Service to prioritise food suppliers for the release on temporary licence (ROTL) programme at a meeting this week..Spokesperson Tony Goodger said: 'Last week I contacted HMP Hollesley Bay, in Suffolk, for a member but the rehabilitation officer there told me, "Normally I would bite your hand off, but we have got such a big demand for inmates at the moment that we've reached our quota and we are not allowed to let any more out to go to work".'

i cant find anything about whether prisoners get paid a normal rate for their work or not.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 22, 2021)

bimble said:


> There is not. Found a version of the article, it says 'The Association of Independent Meat Suppliers is set to urge HM Prison Service to prioritise food suppliers for the release on temporary licence (ROTL) programme at a meeting this week..Spokesperson Tony Goodger said: 'Last week I contacted HMP Hollesley Bay, in Suffolk, for a member but the rehabilitation officer there told me, "Normally I would bite your hand off, but we have got such a big demand for inmates at the moment that we've reached our quota and we are not allowed to let any more out to go to work".'
> 
> i cant find anything about whether prisoners get paid a normal rate for their work or not.


Of course they're not paid a normal rate for their work


----------



## ska invita (Aug 22, 2021)

bimble said:


> i cant find anything about whether prisoners get paid a normal rate for their work or not.


they defintiely  don't - just how token the money is though i cant remember...it really is pennies


----------



## bimble (Aug 22, 2021)

Still, someone will along in a minute to explain that this too is a brexit benefit.


----------



## ska invita (Aug 22, 2021)

bimble said:


> i cant find anything about whether prisoners get paid a normal rate for their work or not.


according to this








						Earning and spending money in prison
					

New Prison Inspectors report on earning and spending money in prison reveals a number of injustices including the fact that pay has been frozen for 14 years.




					www.russellwebster.com
				



The rate of prison pay has not been increased since 2002(!) and is set out in Prison Service Order 4460 which requires:

that all prisoners who are in some form of employment have to earn the minimum of £4 a week, although they can earn more; in 2010 the average working prisoner earned £10 a week
a mandatory rate of pay of £3.25 a week for those who are unable to work for health reasons or have reached retirement age
that those who wish to work, but are unable to due to a lack of activity places in the prison, are paid a minimum of £2.50 a week
that unconvicted prisoners who choose to work are paid the same as convicted prisoners.


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 22, 2021)

ska invita said:


> according to this
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Isn't  the level of remuneration for employment on temp licence normally a matter between the employer and the employee rather than the above which applies to work in prisons ?? Its years since I went to a Probation/ Timpsons seminar on ROTL and permanent employment opportunities and the only thing I can remember was that there is a levy of wages that goes to a Victims Fund.


----------



## ska invita (Aug 22, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Isn't  the level of remuneration for employment on temp licence normally a matter between the employer and the employee rather than the above which applies to work in prisons ?? Its years since I went to a Probation/ Timpsons seminar on ROTL and permanent employment opportunities and the only thing I can remember was that there is a levy of wages that goes to a Victims Fund.


i dont know - my memory of it from a distant past is that earnings and spending whilst serving are heavily capped in all circumstances
that link backs up my memory of it


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 22, 2021)

ska invita said:


> i dont know - my memory of it from a distant past is that earnings and spending whilst serving are heavily capped in all circumstances
> that link backs up my memory of it


ROTL has been around for years, the criteria for release on it is the only thing that's changed. I think you are confusing it with prison wages.


----------



## Badgers (Aug 22, 2021)

:facepalm









						Express pleas with Lord Frost to 'reopen Brexit deal' due to complex red tape
					

HMRC data reveals 270 million additional customs declarations are expected to be filled out as a result of the additional checks.




					www.thelondoneconomic.com


----------



## ska invita (Aug 22, 2021)

Badgers said:


> :facepalm
> 
> 
> 
> ...


to be accurate: its not the Express calling for it, its the British Chambers of Commerce and Federation of Small Businesses - the Express are reporting it


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 22, 2021)

An ex colleague, who works in NOMs,  just sent me this :



> 4.24. ROTL for work placements may be authorised only where a Memorandum of Understanding signed by all three parties (prison, prisoner and provider) is in place. A member of staff deemed competent by the Governor must sign on behalf of the prison. The prisoner and provider should be directed to read all of the provisions of the MOU before signing. The templates at annex D (Paid Placement) and E (Unpaid Placement) must be used and the prisoner and the provider must be advised at the time of signing that:
> • the MOU is not a contract of employment;
> • the placement may be terminated at any point by any party to the MOU;
> • if the placement is terminated, this does not constitute a dismissal for the purposes of the Employment Rights Act 1996; and
> • a contract of employment is not required and should not be used for prisoners in work placements. This does not prevent the provider and prisoner entering into a contract which comes into effect after the prisoner’s release





> 4.25. In cases of paid work placements, the following principles apply: • the Placement Provider must certify that serving prisoners do not constitute a majority of its workforce and that its business is not dependent on prisoner labour;
> • although prisoners are specifically excluded from the provisions of the National Minimum Wage (NMW) Act 1998, the prisoner should be paid at the same rate as ROTL Policy Framework Re-issued: 17 August 2021 22 others doing the same job for the Placement Provider i.e. at least the relevant NMW. Where the Placement Provider is required to provide specific training for prisoners, a “training wage” below NMW equivalent level is permissible for a maximum of three months;
> • ordinarily, the prisoner is expected to meet the cost of meals and travel to and from work (but see Section 6.5 for guidance). When the Placement Provider provides other benefits such as transport or meals, a suitable deduction to the prisoner’s wage may be agreed and must be noted in the Memorandum of Understanding. This does not apply where the prisoner is on a “training wage”;
> • although the offender is not an employee or a “worker”, the Placement Provider must agree to apply, so far as is possible and subject to licence conditions, similar terms and conditions of employment relating to pay, holiday entitlement, sickness and other benefits, grievance and disciplinary rules and procedures, and notice periods (applicable to the provider) as apply to others doing the same work; and
> • the Placement Provider must ensure that the prisoner’s pay, less the deductions they make, such as tax and national insurance, is deposited into the HMPPS bank account. Payments must not be made directly to the offender.


So around the minimum wage -ish with time limited exceptions


----------



## Artaxerxes (Aug 22, 2021)

ska invita said:


> according to this
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Not quite at American levels but I'm sure we're working on legislation paying prisoners 0.0001p per 3 hours.


----------



## MrSki (Aug 22, 2021)

If supermarkets were truthful.


----------



## Yossarian (Aug 22, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Not quite at American levels but I'm sure we're working on legislation paying prisoners 0.0001p per 3 hours.



With money deducted for room and board.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Aug 22, 2021)

ska invita said:


> according to this
> 
> 
> 
> ...



When you take rent, council tax, tube fares and food in to account I reckon most convicts are better off at the end of each month than a huge number of Londoners…


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 22, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> When you take rent, council tax, tube fares and food in to account I reckon most convicts are better off at the end of each month than a huge number of Londoners…


Most cities are built on low wages these days, unfortunately. Todays 'convicts' are tomorrow's citizens. This apparent labour shortage is an excellent opportunity to get those who will be released into training and work. Employment and drug/lifestyle issues are key to reducing offending. Prisons are training about 2000 to be chefs , lots of firms now taking ex-prisoners. I'm all for it.


----------



## brogdale (Aug 22, 2021)

Fucking (continuity) remoaniacs whinging on and on about there being nothing of the supermarket shelves...proof that they're lying...


----------



## ruffneck23 (Aug 22, 2021)

Shamelessly nicked from twatter, apologies if posted before, or inaccurate.


----------



## MrSki (Aug 22, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Fucking (continuity) remoaniacs whinging on and on about there being nothing of the supermarket shelves...proof that they're lying...
> 
> View attachment 284767


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Aug 22, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Fucking (continuity) remoaniacs whinging on and on about there being nothing of the supermarket shelves...proof that they're lying...
> 
> View attachment 284767




What the fuck? 






			
				brogdale's news said:
			
		

> Boris Johnson may be making crucial decisions on Britain’s response to the Afghanistan crisis - but he struggled to choose what to have for dinner.



This is news? Some utter wanker can't decide what to have for dinner?

Him choosing not to wear a mask in a supermarket is news, not whether it will be Chargrills or Fish Fingers, ffs.

If this is Brexit critique we need another Brexit, or maybe another two, just to get things fucking moving here.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Aug 22, 2021)

ruffneck23 said:


> Shamelessly nicked from twatter, apologies if posted before, or inaccurate.
> 
> View attachment 284768




And this. Our local Beefeater is the Manor Inn, (I believe you may even have not been barred from there!) the manager of which is a nice guy, but is simple, to put it kindly. If what the manager of a Beefeater puts on a notice is a the level of political comment that you have, well, there you go.


----------



## ruffneck23 (Aug 22, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> And this. Our local Beefeater is the Manor Inn, the manager of which is a nice guy, but is simple,


I never put you down as an intellectual snob


----------



## ska invita (Aug 22, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Most cities are built on low wages these days, unfortunately. Todays 'convicts' are tomorrow's citizens. This apparent labour shortage is an excellent opportunity to get those who will be released into training and work. Employment and drug/lifestyle issues are key to reducing offending. Prisons are training about 2000 to be chefs , lots of firms now taking ex-prisoners. I'm all for it.


the distance between what prison rehab can be and what it is is so vast i cant find any enthusiasm for anything happening now


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Aug 22, 2021)

ruffneck23 said:


> I never put you down as an intellectual snob




It's not that he's thick, he's not, he's just fucking glacial. Only in his late 20's but walks slower than my 80 year old MIL who's needs both hips replacing, again. Pop in for a drink and you'll see. They have a lovely garden overlooking the canal.


----------



## ruffneck23 (Aug 22, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> It's not that he's thick, he's not, he's just fucking glacial. Only in his late 20's but walks slower than my 80 year old MIL who's needs both hips replacing, again. Pop in for a drink and you'll see. They have a lovely garden overlooking the canal.


I'l give you a shout if I do


----------



## bimble (Aug 22, 2021)

The PM looks haunted doesn't he. also looks like he smells really bad.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Aug 22, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> When you take rent, council tax, tube fares and food in to account I reckon most convicts are better off at the end of each month than a huge number of Londoners…



A prison term features heavily in my retirement plans. Not like I’ve a pension


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Aug 22, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> A prison term features heavily in my retirement plans. Not like I’ve a pension




A bank job works both ways as a retirement plan.


----------



## bimble (Aug 22, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> This apparent labour shortage is an excellent opportunity to get those who will be released into training and work. Employment and drug/lifestyle issues are key to reducing offending. Prisons are training about 2000 to be chefs , lots of firms now taking ex-prisoners. I'm all for it.


Excellent. Prison labour IS a brexit bonus.
The daily mail comments section was also very pleased by this development, though they were mostly suggesting that unemployed people should immediately also be forced to work in the poultry factories, the scroungers.


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 22, 2021)

ska invita said:


> the distance between what prison rehab can be and what it is is so vast i cant find any enthusiasm for anything happening now


Don't think its about being enthusiastic it's about highlighting and supporting projects or practises that can make difference however small. Like life I suppose Ska.


----------



## brogdale (Aug 22, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> What the fuck?
> 
> This is news? Some utter wanker can't decide what to have for dinner?
> 
> ...


I think the news element here is that someone has felt the need to advise the cunt to make his security detail go along with the completely unnecessary, manufactured 'man-o-the-people' photo op.


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 22, 2021)

bimble said:


> Excellent. Prison labour IS a brexit bonus.
> The daily mail comments section was also very pleased by this development, though they were mostly suggesting that unemployed people should immediately also be forced to work in the poultry factories, the scroungers.


Just think of it Bimble , when you next religiously go to your supermarket you won't even know if one or any of the staff is 'prison labour '. A prejudiced,, sneering and ignorant term that immediately pigeonholes and stigmatised , and one that strips any dignity from someone who is employed under ROTL   who wants to turn their life around and when released could be working there full time.

As you have a lot of time on your hands read up on those firms that support prisoner rehabilitation, start with Timpsons as they are well known for their position in this field.. When I went to their seminar the bloke who led the presentation,  accompanied by the owner,  was superb and to the point about how much sense it made. He revealed at the very end that he had started on ROTL and then had gained employment and was now a senior manager, all pre Brexit.

He deserved the applause he got imo. . If he did the same talk now and you were in the audience would you dismiss him as 'prison labour' and want to make a joke about him or Brexit.?


----------



## bimble (Aug 22, 2021)

You are good The39thStep. Thats it, i wish i'd voted for the brexit now, if i'd have known it was about helping prisoners and lorry drivers.


----------



## Badgers (Aug 22, 2021)

Nah, it is just Covid


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Aug 22, 2021)

bimble said:


> You are good The39thStep. Thats it, i wish i'd voted for the brexit now, if i'd have known it was about helping prisoners and lorry drivers.



Not a bad conclusion to have reached Bimble: given where your side is headed politically. From deliberately mischaracterising the cause of loyalist rioting in the North of Ireland to opposing workers organising for better pay, from cheering on job losses in Brexit voting areas to the memes sneering at the marginalised  - it’s an increasingly reactionary and conspiracy driven rump. As it  wheezes off further into the periphery it’ll only get worse.

So welcome to the side of the Brexiteers Bibble!!


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Aug 22, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Just think of it Bimble , when you next religiously go to your supermarket you won't even know if one or any of the staff is 'prison labour '. A prejudiced,, sneering and ignorant term that immediately pigeonholes and stigmatised , and one that strips any dignity from someone who is employed under ROTL   who wants to turn their life around and when released could be working there full time.
> 
> As you have a lot of time on your hands read up on those firms that support prisoner rehabilitation, start with Timpsons as they are well known for their position in this field.. When I went to their seminar the bloke who led the presentation,  accompanied by the owner,  was superb and to the point about how much sense it made. He revealed at the very end that he had started on ROTL and then had gained employment and was now a senior manager, all pre Brexit.
> 
> He deserved the applause he got imo. . If he did the same talk now and you were in the audience would you dismiss him as 'prison labour' and want to make a joke about him or Brexit.?


this is parody isn't it - sorry, it's hard to tell now, I think we may need an emoji


----------



## bimble (Aug 22, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Not a bad conclusion to have reached Bimble: given where your side is headed politically. From deliberately mischaracterising the cause of loyalist rioting in the North of Ireland to opposing workers organising for better pay, from cheering on job losses in Brexit voting areas to the memes sneering at the marginalised  - it’s an increasingly reactionary and conspiracy driven rump. As it  wheezes off further into the periphery it’ll only get worse.
> 
> So welcome to the side of the Brexiteers Bibble!!


Thank you. If I'm a brexiteer now can i also come out as a big fan of the covid19 virus? Which just a couple of weeks ago was being talked of by you as the real cause of the whole lorry driver food supply problem. The black death was excellent for rising wages too so what's not to like.


----------



## bimble (Aug 22, 2021)

FridgeMagnet said:


> this is parody isn't it - sorry, it's hard to tell now, I think we may need an emoji


I think it's more complicated than that, it's not actually supposed to be funny its just that people have been forced into these sort of absurd positions without actually intending to become trolls or jesters.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Aug 22, 2021)

bimble said:


> Thank you. If I'm a brexiteer now can i also come out as a big fan of the covid19 virus? Which just a couple of weeks ago was being talked of by you as the real cause of the whole lorry driver food supply problem. The black death was excellent for rising wages too so what's not to like.



Yeah, I was wrong. The worst pandemic in living memory - and the associated labour shortages - have had zero effect on distribution networks.


----------



## bimble (Aug 22, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Yeah, I was wrong. The worst pandemic in living memory - and the associated labour shortages - have had zero effect on distribution networks.


You still think its the pingdemic?


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 22, 2021)

FridgeMagnet said:


> this is parody isn't it - sorry, it's hard to tell now, I think we may need an emoji


?


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Aug 22, 2021)

bimble said:


> You still think its the pingdemic?



read my post back, and voila, you’ll have your answer….


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Aug 22, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> ?


that prison labour for tuppence a century is equivalent to someone supporting ex-cons getting jobs?


----------



## bimble (Aug 22, 2021)

oh. the black death wasnt that great after all.   
' Wages of labourers were high, but the rise in nominal wages following the Black Death was swamped by post-Plague inflation, so that real wages fell.'


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 22, 2021)

FridgeMagnet said:


> that prison labour for tuppence a century is equivalent to someone supporting ex-cons getting jobs?


If you , and for that matter Bimble , actually read the scheme identified  ( initially and ironically by Bimble)  you’ll find it’s not ‘prison labour for tuppence a century.’ I even posted the conditions attached to the scheme that a mate sent .


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Aug 22, 2021)

Oh it's tuppence a week rather than a century. This is a liberal parody account, I get it now. Sorry, as you were, should have stayed out.


----------



## bimble (Aug 22, 2021)

It's just one of the miracles of brexit, turning the owners of the battery chicken processing plants into advocates for the best interests of prisoners. Like how it saved all the british bivalves from their unhappy journeys. Brexit works in mysterious ways.


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 22, 2021)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Oh it's tuppence a week rather than a century. This is a liberal parody account, I get it now. Sorry, as you were, should have stayed out.


Lol .


----------



## MrSki (Aug 22, 2021)

One day someone will post an actual benefit of Brexit to shut up us remoaners.

Well maybe not enough HGV drivers to deliver food but they have had a pay rise  
Prisoners getting employment is actually a good thing. I have never been to Nandos so no personal impact but people who can afford Nandos are at least middle class wankers on the Brexit impact scale. 
A couple of pubs round here are not opening at lunchtimes because of lack of beer but it is surely only the idle rich who go to pubs at lunchtime? 
Working class people who are not in hospitality or HGV drivers can just tighten their belts with the rise in food prices. Let then eat Pineapple. 
I don't know if there is a Brexit boost in Portugal but still waiting for someone, after 8 months, to actually come out with anything that has benefited the UK.
Is the working class actually better off with higher food prices? Imust try a find a book to read all about it.


----------



## Yossarian (Aug 23, 2021)

I'm 100% in favour of preparing prisoners for employment and hiring former prisoners - if I was in a position where I was employing people, I'd be very willing to give ex-cons a chance, and there have been occasions in the past where I've tried to help formerly incarcerated friends find work, so I know what a challenge it can be..

I don't think that position's incompatible with having misgivings about prison labour being used to fill the gaps when there's not enough workers for some of the shittiest, lowest-paid, and most dangerous jobs around, especially when there's a long and ugly history of abuse of prison labour in the poultry industry elsewhere.

_The SPLC estimates that the Trump administration could significantly ramp up demand for state prisoners as an auxiliary workforce. Compared to undocumented Latino workers who have been the mainstay of Alabama’s low-wage poultry processing labor, work-release inmates are in some ways even more easily exploited and manipulated, the SPLC says, because “they won’t get arrested by Immigration and Customs Enforcement, but they can be sent back to prison, and they can’t move away.”

The exploitation of prison and immigrant labor are two sides of a continuum of economic degradation. Whether criminalized by immigration authorities or incarcerated by the state, these workers are disposable, interchangeable, and ultimately, invisible.









						Prison Labor on the ‘Kill Line’
					

Prisoners are being used to staff dangerous poultry-factory work—and are being injured, or worse.




					www.thenation.com
				



_


----------



## bimble (Aug 23, 2021)

Ian Botham has been appointed as the Uk's trade envoy to Australia. This is great news, cant wait to find out who they will send to negotiate with India.


----------



## Badgers (Aug 23, 2021)

bimble said:


> Ian Botham has been appointed as the Uk's trade envoy to Australia. This is great news, cant wait to find out who they will send to negotiate with India.


Jim Davidson?


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 23, 2021)

Hopefully, Australia will appoint Sir Les Patterson, his knowledge of cheese is second to none.


----------



## glitch hiker (Aug 23, 2021)

According to the Guardiarg the food industry is begging the government to allow more prisoners to work. No doubt their pay is a pittance.

What a country.









						UK food firms beg ministers to let them use prisoners to ease labour shortages
					

Meat processors and others say they must have more day release workers as they cannot find enough staff




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 23, 2021)

glitch hiker said:


> According to the Guardiarg the food industry is begging the government to allow more prisoners to work. No doubt their pay is a pittance.
> 
> What a country.
> 
> ...


yeh we were discussing this yesterday. why not read the thread, you might learn something.


----------



## MrSki (Aug 23, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> I'm 100% in favour of preparing prisoners for employment and hiring former prisoners - if I was in a position where I was employing people, I'd be very willing to give ex-cons a chance, and there have been occasions in the past where I've tried to help formerly incarcerated friends find work, so I know what a challenge it can be..


I think James Timpson is an amazing bloke in this forward thinking business strategy. He is someone who should be honoured (but might reject it) Done a lot for marginalised members of society especially during the pandemic. 
Top bloke.


----------



## planetgeli (Aug 23, 2021)

bimble said:


> Ian Botham has been appointed as the Uk's trade envoy to Australia. This is great news, cant wait to find out who they will send to negotiate with India.



I think you've missed some alliteration there. The correct way to tell this story is Brexit Benefit; Botham Bats for British Business.

Graham Gooch is presumably a shoo-in for India.

Kate Hoey got Ghana btw.


----------



## brogdale (Aug 23, 2021)

Did  Paul 'Chuckle' get São Tomé and Príncipe as Newsnight were predicting?


----------



## Serene (Aug 23, 2021)

Ive seen the middle class Gammons complaining in shops that that some of their favourite foods arent on the shelves anymore. These gammons voted brexit and were warned that this will happen ( amongst all the many other things ) and they are now complaining about it. Gammons are vile.


----------



## MrSki (Aug 24, 2021)

Lucky it is only middle class wankers that go to McDonalds.









						McDonald’s runs out of milkshakes in all UK restaurants
					

McDonald’s restaurants across Britain are unable to serve milkshakes after the burger chain was hit with supply issues.




					www.standard.co.uk


----------



## Badgers (Aug 24, 2021)

MrSki said:


> Lucky it is only middle class wankers that go to McDonalds.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Just Covid, Brexit is going well


----------



## Maggot (Aug 24, 2021)

planetgeli said:


> I think you've missed some alliteration there. The correct way to tell this story is Brexit Benefit; Botham Bats for British Business.
> 
> Graham Gooch is presumably a shoo-in for India.
> 
> Kate Hoey got Ghana btw.


Brexit Benefit; *Beefy* Botham Bats for British Business.


----------



## bimble (Aug 24, 2021)

McDonald’s milkshakes disappearing has got to count as a brexit benefit.


----------



## teqniq (Aug 24, 2021)

Funny how this hasn't been picked up by major publications:





__





						UK government rejects temporary EU visas to HGV drivers - Retail Gazette
					

The UK government has rejected industry calls to issue temporary visas to European truck drivers in an effort reduce shortages.




					www.retailgazette.co.uk


----------



## bimble (Aug 24, 2021)

teqniq said:


> Funny how this hasn't been picked up by major publications:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thats just because it is not news, because the same thing's been going on for many weeks / months (the government saying no to this same pleading).


----------



## teqniq (Aug 24, 2021)

It only came to my attention last week and the only articles I can find reporting it are ones like the above.


----------



## bimble (Aug 24, 2021)

the only new bit is that "a government spokesman" said this about it on Friday:
"The British people repeatedly voted to end free movement and take back control of our immigration system and employers should invest in our domestic workforce instead of relying on labour from abroad."








						Lorry drivers: Act now to avert crisis, government told
					

Retailers and lorry firms join forces in call for new work visas, training and better Covid testing.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## teqniq (Aug 24, 2021)

This was published Friday, which was the first I'd heard of it:






						Driver shortage crisis: grant 10,000 temporary visas to EU workers, says Logistics UK
					

<p>Government must prioritise the granting of 10,000 temporary work visas to encourage EU drivers to return to support the UK’s supply chain, according to business group Logistics UK.</p>




					logistics.org.uk
				




E2a actually a correction... the first i heard of it was one or two people tweeting that the government had rejected the request, (they's heard it on the news apparently but no links) so I googled and found the above article but that was all at the time.


----------



## bimble (Aug 24, 2021)

teqniq said:


> This was published Friday, which was the first I'd heard of it:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


its been going on a while. Its not the first time the gov has rejected the request. eg) 


bimble said:


> it is interesting that the government keep on saying no to these endless increasingly alarming pleas from the logistics people for special temp visas for hgv drivers same as they gave to farmers. I don't really get why they are doing that.


----------



## ruffneck23 (Aug 24, 2021)

MrSki said:


> Lucky it is only middle class wankers that go to McDonalds.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I bet farage and little steven yaxley lennon are pleased by this news, their dry cleaners, not so much.


----------



## MrSki (Aug 24, 2021)




----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 24, 2021)

MrSki said:


>


it is a pity they haven't run out of milkshakes because people were throwing them over politicians


----------



## ska invita (Aug 24, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> it is a pity they haven't run out of milkshakes because people were throwing them over politicians


jokes been done READ THE THREAD


----------



## Lurdan (Aug 24, 2021)

UK truck driver shortage signals a broken labour market - Financial Times (archived)


----------



## Cerv (Aug 24, 2021)

bimble said:


> the only new bit is that "a government spokesman" said this about it on Friday:
> "The British people repeatedly voted to end free movement and take back control of our immigration system and employers should invest in our domestic workforce instead of relying on labour from abroad."
> 
> 
> ...


would be nice if this government spokesperson had explained how issuing a quota of temporary work visas would be in any way incompatible with "taking back control". cos it sounds pretty controlled to me.


----------



## Calamity1971 (Aug 24, 2021)

MrSki said:


>


One less thing for McTwats to throw out of their car window.


----------



## Calamity1971 (Aug 24, 2021)

ska invita said:


> jokes been done READ THE THREAD





Pickman's model said:


> why not read the thread,


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 24, 2021)

ska invita said:


> jokes been done READ THE THREAD


yeh i see it's been done about the former politician farage - no one describes yaxley-lennon as a politician. i was casting the net wider with mps in mind


----------



## ruffneck23 (Aug 24, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Pickman's model said:
> 
> 
> > yeh i see it's been done about the former politician farage - no one describes yaxley-lennon as a politician. i was casting the net wider with mps in mind



dont use your pendatry to steal my thunder 

actually I dont care


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 24, 2021)

Lurdan said:


> UK truck driver shortage signals a broken labour market - Financial Times (archived)


Good article that, thanks.


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 24, 2021)

teqniq said:


> This was published Friday, which was the first I'd heard of it:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Obviously need to go to through the sub editor on this thread


----------



## Elpenor (Aug 24, 2021)

bimble said:


> McDonald’s milkshakes disappearing has got to count as a brexit benefit.


Had one once as a kid and vomited soon after 

As long as their coffee, best value on the high street and good for the price, is still about, all will be well


----------



## bimble (Aug 24, 2021)

It must be about ten years ago I bought a McDonald’s strawberry milkshake at a motorway services and for the next hour kept thinking I was going to puke all over my friends van.   Properly disgusting. Anyway, good if drivers are abandoning McDonald’s for other jobs delivering actual food.


----------



## Badgers (Aug 24, 2021)

UK economy slows sharply as staff shortages reach record levels
					

Labour crisis that has caused restaurant closures and empty shelves holds back UK economic recovery




					www.independent.co.uk


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 24, 2021)

Badgers said:


> UK economy slows sharply as staff shortages reach record levels
> 
> 
> Labour crisis that has caused restaurant closures and empty shelves holds back UK economic recovery
> ...


see, the tories are in charge but still it's reported as a labour crisis


----------



## MrSki (Aug 24, 2021)

Someone please get the high class speed (That might or might not give you the shits) read the thread and report back on the Sunlit uplands.


----------



## andysays (Aug 24, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Good article that, thanks.


It's probably too much to expect many here to actually read the whole article, but the final paragraph is worth quoting



> The labour shortages are a moment of reckoning. If we just use them to bicker about Brexit, we’ll drown out the real lessons in the noise.


----------



## MrSki (Aug 24, 2021)

andysays said:


> It's probably too much to expect many here to actually read the whole article, but the final paragraph is worth quoting


So andysays what is better in your life in Tottenham? How has Brexit made it better for you?
Just interested what someone who is pro brexit has to say 8 months in to it;


----------



## andysays (Aug 24, 2021)

MrSki said:


> So andysays what is better in your life in Tottenham? How has Brexit made it better for you?
> Just interested what someone who is pro brexit has to say 8 months in to it;





> The labour shortages are a moment of reckoning. If we just use them to bicker about Brexit, we’ll drown out the real lessons in the noise



You are one of those who appears to want to simply bicker about Brexit.

For all your posts on this thread, you actually have nothing to say.


----------



## MrSki (Aug 24, 2021)

andysays said:


> You are one of those who appears to want to simply bicker about Brexit.
> 
> For all your posts on this thread, you actually have nothing to say.


I asked a simple question. How has your life improved?


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 24, 2021)

MrSki said:


> I asked a simple question. How has your life improved?


he talks so much more to you these days, which is a great pleasure to him no doubt


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 24, 2021)

andysays said:


> You are one of those who appears to want to simply bicker about Brexit.


we all want to bicker about brexit. the brexit bickering is the only brexit benefit. think about the sort of things we'd be discussing if we didn't have brexit


----------



## MrSki (Aug 24, 2021)

andysays said:


> You are one of those who appears to want to simply bicker about Brexit.
> 
> For all your posts on this thread, you actually have nothing to say.


Bicker? What the fuck is that meant to mean? Come on then & post all the positives of Brexit. Post them rather than slag me off.
Post what is better for you. 
Post something positive for those living in Tottenham. I bloody dare you.


----------



## Yossarian (Aug 24, 2021)

That FT writer would get short shrift if she  came on this thread and said "Brexit helped cause this current crisis, other countries have shown how the sector's pay issues could have been resolved without Brexit, now it's time to stop bickering about Brexit."


----------



## andysays (Aug 24, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> That FT writer would get short shrift if she  came on this thread and said "Brexit helped cause this current crisis, other countries have shown how the sector's pay issues could have been resolved without Brexit, now it's time to stop bickering about Brexit."


That's rather selective quoting though. The whole paragraph says

_The story of Britain’s empty shelves, like that of its unpicked strawberries and unprocessed chickens, is the story of how migration combined with a weakly regulated labour market and hugely powerful retailers have allowed some goods and services to become unsustainably cheap. The system shaved money off our shopping bills but it wasn’t resilient. Remain voters are right to say Brexit helped to cause the current crisis, but wrong to say everything was fine without it. Brexit voters are right to say migration helped suppress driver pay, but as the Netherlands shows, Brexit wasn’t the only way to resolve it._

Brexit probably wasn't the only way to to resolve the problem, and it may not be adequately resolved even with Brexit.

Very few posters here ever argued that simply leaving the EU would actually resolve all our problems, but we have argued that it would change, to some extent, the context in which these issues were worked through.

Too many here still seem to be saying that everything was great before Brexit, and blaming everything bad that happens on the fact of Brexit, without recognising that it could present workers with the opportunity to improve their pay and conditions

_Adrian Jones of the union Unite says the short supply means drivers now have a moment of leverage. He wants to see long-term reforms such as in the Netherlands, where a collective agreement is negotiated between employer and union groups which sets a floor on pay and conditions across the sector. “This collective agreement becomes law, so it gives transport suppliers the ability to say to their customers: this is law, so I can’t go cheaper than this,” says Edwin Atema from Dutch union FNV._

I'd rather explore this sort of idea in the present than the endless focus on the way people voted in a referendum five years ago or on what short-term fixes employers are calling for, but maybe that's simply not possible for many on this thread who are more interested in finger pointing.


----------



## MrSki (Aug 24, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> we all want to bicker about brexit. the brexit bickering is the only brexit benefit. think about the sort of things we'd be discussing if we didn't have brexit


I love bickering but andysays suddenly has not much to say.  You get more out of AndyPandy to be honest. Actually I will take that back until Andypandy has had a chance to reply.


----------



## bimble (Aug 24, 2021)

Isn’t the problem though that instead of paying good money to fruit pickers and chicken processors the country will just import these things, because it’s cheaper.

like this man in the telegraph said yesterday, fuck food production in the uk who needs it it’s a ‘low value industry’


----------



## andysays (Aug 24, 2021)

MrSki said:


> I love bickering but andysays suddenly has not much to say.  You get more out of AndyPandy to be honest. Actually I will take that back until Andypandy has had a chance to reply.


You seem to be mistaking not being interesting in responding to pointless questions from a pointless poster with not having anything to say.

I'm afraid I'm unable to provide any updates on the availability of milkshakes in the Tottenham branch of McDonalds, which appears to be the only level of discussion you're interested in or capable of.


----------



## MrSki (Aug 24, 2021)

I don't know but I am sure Andy Pandy does. He is about to post an essay on how Brexit has benefited the working class in North London.


----------



## MrSki (Aug 24, 2021)

andysays said:


> / You seem to be mistaking not being interesting in responding to pointless questions from a pointless poster with not having anything to say.
> 
> I'm afraid I'm unable to provide any updates on the availability of milkshakes in the Tottenham branch of McDonalds, which appears to be the only level of discussion you're interested in or capable of./


I am not asking that am I? What is better about your life in Tottenham since Brexit?

Pretty simple question but just slag me off rather than answering it.


----------



## andysays (Aug 24, 2021)

MrSki said:


> I am not asking that am I? What is better about your life in Tottenham since Brexit?
> 
> Pretty simple question but just slag me off rather than answering it.


Your question (even though you may not realise it) implies an entirely passive relationship with the world - "how has your life become better?" - rather than an active one - "how have you contributed to making the lives of those in your community better?"

As it happens, in my role as a workplace rep for my union, over the past few weeks I have successfully negotiated with my  manager for the number of trained first aiders in my department to be increased from eight to eleven, ensuring that each team has their own first aider.

What have you done to make the world a better place, apart from shit posting on the internet?


----------



## MrSki (Aug 24, 2021)

andysays said:


> Your question (even though you may not realise it) implies an entirely passive relationship with the world - "how has your life become better?" - rather than an active one - "how have you contributed to making the lives of those in your community better?"
> 
> As it happens, in my role as a workplace rep for my union, over the past few weeks I have successfully negotiated with my  manager for the number of trained first aiders in my department to be increased from eight to eleven, ensuring that each team has their own first aider.
> 
> What have you done to make the world a better place, apart from shit posting on the internet?


Lovely response. You are AndyPandy & I claim my £5 

Let us get this straight so there is no argument, as a workplace rep for your union Brexit has enabled you to have eleven first aiders in your department? Was this not possible without Brexit? 
What I have or have not done is really not what we are talking about is it? 
Please 'in plain English' State the benefits for a trade union rep in Tottenham.


----------



## andysays (Aug 24, 2021)

MrSki said:


> Lovely response. You are AndyPandy & I claim my £5
> 
> Let us get this straight so there is no argument, as a workplace rep for your union Brexit has enabled you to have eleven first aiders in your department? Was this not possible without Brexit?
> What I have or have not done is really not what we are talking about is it?
> Please 'in plain English' State the benefits for a trade union rep in Tottenham.


I'm not here to jump through your hoops or answer your inane questions.


----------



## bimble (Aug 24, 2021)

Switzerland does something different, pay is high everything’s crazy expensive & there are really full on strict protectionist policies to prevent cheap imported meat from destroying their domestic food production .
It’s not impossible I just don’t think that’s the way it’s looking to go here, at all. See the fab trade deals we are about to enjoy with New Zealand etc.


----------



## MrSki (Aug 24, 2021)

andysays said:


> I'm not here to jump through your hoops or answer your inane questions.


Well if you can't answer simple questions then do what you can. I have asked you in a civil tone what are the benefits of Brexit to as it turns out a union Rep in Tottenham and really you have not answered anything that I have asked but your personal insults have been noted but also ignored. 
FOR FUCK SAKE HOW IS YOUR LIFE BETTER AFTER BREXIT. 
It is not a hoop but a simple question.


----------



## Supine (Aug 24, 2021)

andysays said:


> As it happens, in my role as a workplace rep for my union, over the past few weeks I have successfully negotiated with my  manager for the number of trained first aiders in my department to be increased from eight to eleven



At the factory I’m working at 150 full time staff have just been laid off as a group of products have been moved from Kent to Europe by the customer. That is a direct effect of brexit that you seem to still think was a good idea but can’t articulate why the positives outweigh the raising number of negatives. Their union couldn’t do a thing about it.

None of my comments in this thread should be seen as a direct attack on urban brexiteers btw. Brexit was always going to be run by the tories and they are totally to blame for the way it has been carried out. Lexiteers are irrelevant to what is happening.


----------



## Badgers (Aug 24, 2021)

#worldbeating 







						UK in Brexit climbdown as safety rule deadline extended  | Brexit | The Guardian
					






					amp-theguardian-com.cdn.ampproject.org


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Aug 24, 2021)

Supine said:


> At the factory I’m working at 150 full time staff have just been laid off as a group of products have been moved from Kent to Europe by the customer. That is a direct effect of brexit that you seem to still think was a good idea but can’t articulate why the positives outweigh the raising number of negatives. Their union couldn’t do a thing about it.
> 
> None of my comments in this thread should be seen as a direct attack on urban brexiteers btw. Brexit was always going to be run by the tories and they are totally to blame for the way it has been carried out. Lexiteers are irrelevant to what is happening.


Obviously, I don’t know where you are working and I don’t know the specifics of the issue but solidarity to those losing their jobs. It’s fucking awful news.

However, the last sentence in your post is plainly wrong. In the last 6 weeks Labour has announced a raft of procurement measures - many directly lifted from ‘the lexiteers’ - that would guarantee well paid jobs, billions of pounds of investment in the UK, use the social and environmental stretch clauses in public contracts to raise standards and invest in reshoring jobs. They are on the cusp of announcing an infrastructure plan that will be unfettered by EU State Aid rules. Brexit was, is and will be a _process. _Remain or leave would always have been shit under Johnson. The long term is a different matter. Far from irrelevant I’d argue that the ideas of left leave are becoming the future


----------



## MrSki (Aug 24, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> However, the last sentence in your post is plainly wrong. In the last 6 weeks Labour has announced a raft of procurement measures - many directly lifted from ‘the lexiteers’ - that would guarantee well paid jobs, billions of pounds of investment in the UK, use the social and environmental stretch clauses in public contracts to raise standards and invest in reshoring jobs.


Problem being Labour are not in power & look less likely under Starmer to ever be so. Are there any books you could recommend?


----------



## Supine (Aug 24, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> However, the last sentence in your post is plainly wrong. In the last 6 weeks Labour has announced a raft of…



Sorry but LOL. You get 10/10 for optimism


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 24, 2021)

MrSki said:


> Problem being Labour are not in power & look less likely under Starmer to ever be so. Are there any books you could recommend?


I’ll try and think of some , what reading age are you ?


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Aug 24, 2021)

dp


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Aug 24, 2021)

MrSki said:


> Are there any books you could recommend?


----------



## MrSki (Aug 24, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> I’ll try and think of some , what reading age are you ?


A lovely reply. I salute you.


----------



## MrSki (Aug 24, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> View attachment 285064


You seem well read but come on then please tell me the benefits of Brexit to the working class or anyone for that matter who is not a hedge fund manager. 
Seriously I would be interested in your thoughts.


----------



## MrSki (Aug 24, 2021)

So so far we have had andysays claiming that there are more Health & Safety reps due to Brexit I don't know how that works but it is a positive.   
Flood the thread with all the other benefits please.


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 24, 2021)

I’ll post this in the ‘Labour shortage thread ‘ as well . This is a short but fascinating article on lorry drivers conditions in some EU countries , not all. There have been some minor reforms in Portugal and Spain ie drivers do not unload wagons as part of their work and Holland where unions have agreed a deal.


----------



## ska invita (Aug 24, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> They are on the cusp of announcing an infrastructure plan that will be unfettered by EU State Aid rules.


Its still not clear to me how much the UK is tied to state aid rules under the signed deal with the EU.... I think there's already one case going to court about breach of rules.... being "unfettered" is one of the largest Brexit gains...if , and to what  extent,  it happens 


The39thStep said:


> I’ll post this in the ‘Labour shortage thread ‘ as well . This is a short but fascinating article on lorry drivers conditions in some EU countries , not all. There have been some minor reforms in Portugal and Spain ie drivers do not unload wagons as part of their work and Holland where unions have agreed a deal.



lead story on that website
*








						John Lewis HGV drivers get £5,000 pay rise - Fleet Speak
					

HGV drivers for John Lewis and Waitrose have been handed a £5,000 annual pay rise by bosses.




					fleetspeak.co.uk
				



In a bid to tackle the UK’s lorry driver shortage, John Lewis and Waitrose have revealed that their HGV drivers will enjoy a £5,000 annual pay rise.*

The move has been made to avoid empty shelves and delayed supplies with new recruits also being offered a £1,000 ‘golden hello’ each – but only if they join before November which is ahead of the firm’s festive peak trading period.

The John Lewis Partnership says it will increase the annual pay for its 900 drivers by £2 an hour which equates to £5,000 a year.

They say that while shift patterns vary, the average driver’s pay for Waitrose and John Lewis will be around £45,000 per year.


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 24, 2021)

Need to get this ITV production team on here to rally the troops


----------



## Supine (Aug 24, 2021)

Telegraph reporting longer lories are planned to help the struggling supply chain.   Idiots at the telegraph loving their brexit.


----------



## Raheem (Aug 24, 2021)

Supine said:


> Telegraph reporting longer lories are planned to help the struggling supply chain.   Idiots at the telegraph loving their brexit.


Sounds like a quick and simple fix.


----------



## Nine Bob Note (Aug 24, 2021)

Raheem said:


> Telegraph reporting longer lories are planned to help the struggling supply chain.   Idiots at the telegraph loving their brexit.



I wanted to post a clip of Yes Minister where Bernard suggests that giving doctors longer tubes for their stethoscopes would potentially solve their NHS staffing problems, but YT is just offering me entire episodes. Fucking inconsiderate


----------



## Badgers (Aug 25, 2021)

Hopefully the Gammons will cope without Gammon  









						Post-Brexit staffing issues: Shortage of festive favourites like pigs in blankets and gammon looms
					

Britons may find festive favourites like pigs harder to come by this winter as industry labour shortages continue to bite.




					www.cityam.com


----------



## Badgers (Aug 25, 2021)




----------



## Badgers (Aug 25, 2021)




----------



## Badgers (Aug 25, 2021)

Brexit border checks: the five areas of most concern
					

What with the driver shortages, the 'pingdemic' and summer holidays, it would be easy to forget that in fewer than 50 days, border controls will begin for food and drink arriving in Great Britain from Europe




					www.thegrocer.co.uk


----------



## Yossarian (Aug 25, 2021)

MrSki said:


> Problem being Labour are not in power & look less likely under Starmer to ever be so.



Since the Tories have achieved the feat of turning the issue of EU membership from something that splits the Conservative vote to something that splits the Labour vote, I think the next Labour government might still be quite a few years away.


----------



## Badgers (Aug 25, 2021)

Brexit is sparking an adult social care crisis in Britain, experts warn
					

"We were hit by Brexit," the chair of the National Care Association told the BBC.




					www.thelondoneconomic.com


----------



## MrSki (Aug 25, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> Since the Tories have achieved the feat of turning the issue of EU membership from something that splits the Conservative vote to something that splits the Labour vote, I think the next Labour government might still be quite a few years away.


Still andysays has managed to negotiate more H&S Reps so it is not a complete failure. 
Although I am taking the piss I have the upmost respect for anyone who is a trade union rep. A thankless task but good on anyone who is or was one.


----------



## seeformiles (Aug 25, 2021)

For all fast food fans panicking about their favourites being unavailable, there are plenty of sites (like the one below) that show you how to recreate them at home. My BK Cheeseburger is a thing of wonder 😎:









						Burger King Whopper
					

This copycat Burger King Whopper sandwich may taste even better than the Whopper you get at Burger King. Easy recipe with fresh ingredients.




					copykat.com


----------



## MrSki (Aug 25, 2021)

seeformiles said:


> For all fast food fans panicking about their favourites being unavailable, there are plenty of sites (like the one below) that show you how to recreate them at home. My BK Cheeseburger is a thing of wonder 😎:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I have not been to BK or MacDacs for years but that link has made me fancy a burger & it is not even half seven.


----------



## ska invita (Aug 25, 2021)

Badgers said:


>



my memory* of it is that at 5am when the referendum result was confirmed the first interview the bbc did was with daniel hannan, in which he said "dont panic, we'll have a norway deal, we wont leave the customs union"
some years later he was arguing how terrible a norway deal would be
the constant shifting of position, delivered with such conviction, is kind of interesting - not just of him but all the leading brexiteers, farage included



*my memory is fallable


----------



## andysays (Aug 25, 2021)

MrSki said:


> Still andysays has managed to negotiate more H&S Reps so it is not a complete failure.
> Although I am taking the piss I have the upmost respect for anyone who is a trade union rep. A thankless task but good on anyone who is or was one.


Please stop tagging me into to your posts, especially if you are going to misrepresent what I've previously posted.


----------



## Badgers (Aug 25, 2021)

andysays said:


> Please stop tagging me into to your posts, especially if you are going to misrepresent what I've previously posted.


Anyone still supporting this Brexit shambles can't use the word 'misrepresent' with any seriousness 🙄


----------



## Badgers (Aug 25, 2021)

Brexit Party heads list of top earners in European Parliament
					

‘In politics as in business, success breeds success,’ says Brexit Party MEP Robert Lowe.




					www.politico.eu


----------



## MrSki (Aug 25, 2021)

andysays said:


> Please stop tagging me into to your posts, especially if you are going to misrepresent what I've previously posted.


Okay I will stop calling you Andy Pandy but you claimed one of the benefits of Brexit was that you had managed to negotiate more H&S reps. I don't understand what this has to do with Brexit but I applaud you for being a TU Rep. Been there & done that & it is a thankless task. 
Take a compliment when it is given. Feel free to list other benefits of Brexit that you might come across.


----------



## Badgers (Aug 25, 2021)

MrSki said:


> Feel free to list other benefits of Brexit that you might come across.


That would be helpful


----------



## MrSki (Aug 25, 2021)

Still it is all positive.


----------



## Badgers (Aug 25, 2021)

The trade envoys will fix it


----------



## krtek a houby (Aug 25, 2021)

bimble said:


> McDonald’s milkshakes disappearing has got to count as a brexit benefit.



Nobody drinks milkshakes anyway


----------



## fishfinger (Aug 25, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> Nobody drinks milkshakes anyway


(((Kelis)))


----------



## MrSki (Aug 25, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> Nobody drinks milkshakes anyway


But what about tipping them over some right wing cunt? I have not had a milkshake for over30 years but Brexit should not stop the milkshake pouring over right wing twats.


----------



## krtek a houby (Aug 25, 2021)

MrSki said:


> But what about tipping them over some right wing cunt? I have not had a milkshake for over30 years but Brexit should not stop the milkshake pouring over right wing twats.



How about pouring a nice British cup of tea over them, instead of the American rubbish? 

Leave means leaf!


----------



## Yossarian (Aug 25, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> How about pouring a nice British cup of tea over them, instead of the American rubbish?
> 
> Leave means leaf!



You won't get this effect with a cup of tea.


----------



## krtek a houby (Aug 25, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> You won't get this effect with a cup of tea.
> 
> View attachment 285107



Good point. The special relationship is occasionally useful, after all.


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 25, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> Since the Tories have achieved the feat of turning the issue of EU membership from something that splits the Conservative vote to something that splits the Labour vote, I think the next Labour government might still be quite a few years away.


Damn the Tories and their second referendum campaign.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Aug 25, 2021)

The boss of co-op, has today called for a relaxation of visa rules to help fill the 100,000 HGV job vacancies

Tom Bradshaw, the Vice President, of the National Farmers Union has pointed out that ‘there is only one pool of labour’ and that tempting back the 13,600 EU drivers and meat processors should help fix the problem.

The British Meat Processors Association chief executive Nick Allen blamed the Government’s immigration policies for staffing challenges faced by many companies. Meat industry workforce talent pool is turning into a talent puddle - BMPA

A simple question for continuity remain: do you agree with Nick, Steve and Tom?


----------



## Yossarian (Aug 25, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Damn the Tories and their second referendum campaign.



Cameron's promise of a referendum in 2013 was certainly an effort to unify the Conservative vote ahead of the 2015 election - there were also predictions that it would cleave the Labour vote.

_As with the 35% of 2010 Labour voters in Scotland who voted ‘yes’ to independence, the Labour Party currently offers little to the 27-33% of 2015 Labour voters in Britain who want to leave the EU. After they vote against EU membership in 2016/17, will this segment of the Labour electorate continue to vote Labour at the next general election? Or will the EU referendum teach these voters that opposition to the EU membership is incompatible with support for the Labour Party? Labour cannot afford to lose one-quarter to one-third of the people who voted for them in 2015. Yet, there is a very strong chance that Labour could be sleep-walking into another referendum-induced election catastrophe._









						The electoral implications of Labour’s EU referendum stance - UK in a changing Europe
					

While a great deal of energy has been devoted to predicting the result of the EU referendum, few have discussed its implications...




					ukandeu.ac.uk


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Aug 25, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> Cameron's promise of a referendum in 2013 was certainly an effort to unify the Conservative vote ahead of the 2015 election - there were also predictions that it would cleave the Labour vote.
> 
> _As with the 35% of 2010 Labour voters in Scotland who voted ‘yes’ to independence, the Labour Party currently offers little to the 27-33% of 2015 Labour voters in Britain who want to leave the EU. After they vote against EU membership in 2016/17, will this segment of the Labour electorate continue to vote Labour at the next general election? Or will the EU referendum teach these voters that opposition to the EU membership is incompatible with support for the Labour Party? Labour cannot afford to lose one-quarter to one-third of the people who voted for them in 2015. Yet, there is a very strong chance that Labour could be sleep-walking into another referendum-induced election catastrophe._
> 
> ...



Yeah, I don’t think it was the Tories who undermined Corbyn, destroyed Labour’s momentum in the polls and split Labour with a poisonous second referendum campaign though was it..


----------



## bimble (Aug 25, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> The boss of co-op has today called for a relaxation of visa rules to help fill the 100,000 HGV job vacancies
> 
> Tom Bradshaw, the Vice President, of the National Farmers Union has pointed out that ‘there is only one pool of labour’ and that tempting back the 13,600 EU drivers and meat processors should help fix the problem.
> 
> A simple question for continuity remain: do you agree with Steve and Tom?


It depends if you mean right now, this week, or in the future.
I think lorry drivers is a different kettle of fish from meat processors.
We absolutely need to have lorry divers, so in time, with conditions better and new UK drivers passing their tests that will be fine.
My guess is that by then we will not really have a meat industry though, maybe not much of fruit and veg one either, or only much smaller than they are now. Selling higher priced British chickens & fruit etc, to people who want and can afford them, whilst the majority of these things will be imported because its cheaper.


----------



## Supine (Aug 25, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> The boss of co-op has today called for a relaxation of visa rules to help fill the 100,000 HGV job vacancies
> 
> Tom Bradshaw, the Vice President, of the National Farmers Union has pointed out that ‘there is only one pool of labour’ and that tempting back the 13,600 EU drivers and meat processors should help fix the problem.
> 
> A simple question for continuity remain: do you agree with Steve and Tom?



what do your mean by continuity remain? It’s a diss i presume…


----------



## Yossarian (Aug 25, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Yeah, I don’t think it was the Tories who undermined Corbyn, destroyed Labour’s momentum in the polls and split Labour with a poisonous second referendum campaign though was it..



Was it totally unpredictable that a large segment of Labour voters would do dumb shit like wrapping themselves in the EU flag and demanding a referendum rerun instead of accepting the result?


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 25, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Yeah, I don’t think it was the Tories who undermined Corbyn, destroyed Labour’s momentum in the polls and split Labour with a poisonous second referendum campaign though was it..


It was sir keir starmer in the hall with the lead pipe


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Aug 25, 2021)

bimble said:


> It depends if you mean right now, this week, or in the future.


It a simple question: do you support Nick, Steve and Tom?

We’ve had endless posts here from you and others about milkshake shortages, empty shelves, the crisis facing shoppers trying to feed their families etc caused by Brexit.

Now, the industry leaders themselves have devised a plan to address these issues. Does continuity remain support it or not?


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 25, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> It a simple question: do you support Nick, Steve and Tom?
> 
> We’ve had endless posts here from you and others about milkshake shortages, empty shelves, the crisis facing shoppers trying to feed their families etc caused by Brexit.
> 
> Now, finally the industry has devised a plan to address these issues. Does continuity remain support it or not?


I think continuity remain have been subsumed into real remain


----------



## teqniq (Aug 25, 2021)

What even is continuity remain? There can't be any continuity when we've already left.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Aug 25, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> I think continuity remain have been subsumed into real remain



I am happy to commence referring to it a Real Remain from here on in - in recognition of the tectonic shift within the tendency


----------



## MrSki (Aug 25, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> It a simple question: do you support Nick, Steve and Tom?
> 
> We’ve had endless posts here from you and others about milkshake shortages, empty shelves, the crisis facing shoppers trying to feed their families etc caused by Brexit.
> 
> Now, the industry leaders themselves have devised a plan to address these issues. Does continuity remain support it or not?


I am just an individual but think Brexit has been a pile of shite. It might have benefited hedge fund managers who will strip the UK. Morrisons is going but fuck it all the UK does not matter. After all we is all going to die so why worry about it?


----------



## brogdale (Aug 25, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> I think continuity remain have been subsumed into real remain


Didn't any split to the E(S)NLA?


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 25, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Didn't any split to the E(S)NLA?


Judging by their pronouncements they should be ensa


----------



## ska invita (Aug 25, 2021)

I don't know about the economics of degrowth, but this looks like a great opportunity to move in that direction...
Embrace the degrowth  - fuck business!
Less trucks is less pollution 
Less investment is less consumer crap 
Theres so much we can live without, or with less of 
For me a collapse in the "meat industry" is one of the positives of Brexit.

Of course this will hit incomes for many, but a transition economy is always going to be painful.. continuous growth is more painful


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 25, 2021)

ska invita said:


> I don't know about the economics of degrowth, but this looks like a great opportunity to move in that direction...
> Embrace the degrowth  - fuck business!
> Less trucks is less pollution
> Less investment is less consumer crap
> ...


Fuck degrowth. Let's have a vocabulary for a new mode of production which isn't taken from the pustulent corpse of capitalist economics


----------



## ska invita (Aug 25, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Fuck degrowth. Let's have a vocabulary for a new mode of production which isn't taken from the pustulent corpse of capitalist economics


Youve out hot-taken me there


----------



## Badgers (Aug 25, 2021)

__





						Co-op boss says current food shortages are worst he’s ever seen due to Covid and Brexit – Metro
					






					metro-co-uk.cdn.ampproject.org


----------



## brogdale (Aug 25, 2021)

Why do 'continuity' remain or the 'loyalist' brexiteers think that neoliberal exploitation of labour will alter as a result of supra-state membership status?


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Aug 25, 2021)

MrSki said:


> I am just an individual but think Brexit has been a pile of shite. It might have benefited hedge fund managers who will strip the UK. Morrisons is going but fuck it all the UK does not matter. After all we is all going to die so why worry about it?



Do you support the calls raised by Nick, Steve and Tom to solve the Brexit food shortages? We’ve had pages of evidence here of the extent of the problem and the unprecedented hardships ordinary people are enduring - much of it from you. Here is a solution. Do you support it?


----------



## Supine (Aug 25, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Why do 'continuity' remain or the 'loyalist' brexiteers think that neoliberal exploitation of labour will alter as a result of supra-state membership status?



I’ve always wondered that. It wasn’t ever going to be a thing.


----------



## MrSki (Aug 25, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Do you support the calls raised by Nick, Steve and Tom to solve the Brexit food shortages? We’ve had pages of evidence here of the extent of the problem and the unprecedented hardships ordinary people are enduring - much of it from you. Here is a solution. Do you support it?


You claim to be batting for the working class but if I agreed with you then we would both be wrong. It is all a load of bollocks & really is Turkeys voting for christmas. In a few years there will be a book you can read all about it.
 I am passed caring and will be away for a couple of days but lots of loveXxx


----------



## bimble (Aug 25, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> It a simple question: do you support Nick, Steve and Tom?
> 
> We’ve had endless posts here from you and others about milkshake shortages, empty shelves, the crisis facing shoppers trying to feed their families etc caused by Brexit.


oh, I tried to give you a proper reply but all you wanted is yes i support nick and steve or no i don't.
I don't care either way tbh, whether temp visas are issued or not.
I don't think many people would come rushing over here now anyway even if they were magnanimously allowed to for a few weeks or months or whatever.

As said, I do think we will be fine for lorry drivers in a couple of years but reckon that food production in the UK is mostly going to die a death, apart from at the luxury end, if no more cheap foreign labour. Which doesn't bother me much but will be crap for many. 
eta actually it does bother me, its shit, and environmentally incredibly stupid, to be moving towards importing more food from the other side of the world.


----------



## andysays (Aug 25, 2021)

MrSki said:


> Okay I will stop calling you Andy Pandy but you claimed one of the benefits of Brexit was that you had managed to negotiate more H&S reps. I don't understand what this has to do with Brexit but I applaud you for being a TU Rep. Been there & done that & it is a thankless task.
> Take a compliment when it is given. Feel free to list other benefits of Brexit that you might come across.


You're either deliberately lying or you're too stupid to understand what I said.

What I said was I'd successfully negotiated for three extra first aiders.

And I never claimed that this was the result of Brexit.

Either way, you and your shit trolling are going ignore.


----------



## glitch hiker (Aug 25, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Do you support the calls raised by Nick, Steve and Tom to solve the Brexit food shortages? We’ve had pages of evidence here of the extent of the problem and the unprecedented hardships ordinary people are enduring - much of it from you. Here is a solution. Do you support it?


There isn't any alternative right now. We aren't going to get the drivers trained up quickly enough, even assuming there are enough willing applicants who'd all pass muster. 

Unfortunately the government aren't interested in it and just want magical thinking to apply/

Though we won't be rejoining any time soon it is clearly the only sensible solution to a problem that didn't need to exist


----------



## Badgers (Aug 25, 2021)

Just make the lorries bigger and everything will be fine


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 25, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Just make the lorries bigger and everything will be fine



Bendy lorries will work on roads where bendy buses wouldn't.


----------



## Badgers (Aug 25, 2021)




----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 25, 2021)

Badgers said:


>



The end of the Soviet United Kingdom beckons


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Aug 25, 2021)

Badgers said:


>




So a yes to Nick, Steve and Tom’s plan from you?


----------



## brogdale (Aug 25, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> So a yes to Nick, Steve and Tom’s plan from you?


Nothing has really changed, has it?


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Aug 25, 2021)

glitch hiker said:


> There isn't any alternative right now. We aren't going to get the drivers trained up quickly enough, even assuming there are enough willing applicants who'd all pass muster.
> 
> Unfortunately the government aren't interested in it and just want magical thinking to apply/
> 
> Though we won't be rejoining any time soon it is clearly the only sensible solution to a problem that didn't need to exist


Thanks glitch hiker some honesty from your side, good to see some preparedness to face up to the near starvation of ordinary Britons and a clear plan emerge.


----------



## two sheds (Aug 25, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> So a yes to Nick, Steve and Tom’s plan from you?


What do you think about the plan?


----------



## bimble (Aug 25, 2021)

Smokeandsteam what do you reckon, do you think that food production (fruit & veg & meat processing) will continue in the UK at the same scale it has been ?


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 25, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> I think continuity remain have been subsumed into real remain


Democratic Real Remain


----------



## krtek a houby (Aug 25, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Democratic Real Remain


Democratic People's Republic of Remainia


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Aug 25, 2021)

So far the position seems to be:

Support for the Co-op CEO, NFU and food processors employers position: Badgers and Glitch Hiker
Exhaustion from posting memes about the 'Brexit food crisis' meaning a position on the new plan to solve the 'Brexit food crisis' is not available: Ski
Despite posting about it endlessly I'm not that bothered: bimble

Any more for any more?


----------



## brogdale (Aug 25, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> So far the position seems to be:
> 
> Support for the Co-op CEO, NFU and food processors employers position: Badgers and Glitch Hiker
> Exhaustion from posting memes about the 'Brexit food crisis' meaning a position on the new plan to solve the 'Brexit food crisis' is not available: Ski
> ...


Yes, the point that your question is pretty irrelevant.
The neoliberal state will ensure that any costs involved in supply-side management of the labour market will fall directly on workers/taxpayers, whether or not the UK state happens to be a member state of the EU.


----------



## Supine (Aug 25, 2021)

Food choice goes down
Drivers wages go up
Food prices go up, which disproportionally effects the poor more than anyone. Especially the ones who lost their jobs due to business relocations.

Socialist nirvana? Don’t think so.


----------



## two sheds (Aug 25, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> So far the position seems to be:
> 
> Support for the Co-op CEO, NFU and food processors employers position: Badgers and Glitch Hiker
> Exhaustion from posting memes about the 'Brexit food crisis' meaning a position on the new plan to solve the 'Brexit food crisis' is not available: Ski
> ...


Ignores the question completely: Smokeandsteam


----------



## editor (Aug 25, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Tom Bradshaw, the Vice President, of the National Farmers Union has pointed out that ‘there is only one pool of labour’ and that tempting back the 13,600 EU drivers and meat processors should help fix the problem.


Does 'Tom' have any practical details about how these 3,600 EU drivers and meat processors will be "tempted back"?


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 25, 2021)

Supine said:


> Food choice goes down
> Drivers wages go up
> Food prices go up, which disproportionally effects the poor more than anyone. Especially the ones who lost their jobs due to business relocations.
> 
> Socialist nirvana? Don’t think so.


Rearrange those words into a familiar saying. Answer: 
The poor , especially those who lost their jobs due to business relocation , shouldn’t support strikes for improved wages or indeed wage increases because food prices will go up and food choices will go down which will disproportionately affect them more than anyone . Socialist nirvana ? Don’t think so.


----------



## editor (Aug 25, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Rearrange those words into a familiar saying. Answer:
> The poor , especially those who lost their jobs due to business relocation , shouldn’t support strikes for improved wages or indeed wage increases because food prices will go up and food choices will go down which will disproportionately affect them more than anyone . Socialist nirvana ? Don’t think so.


So are you saying that the poor will now be generally better off - or worse off  - under Brexit?


----------



## Supine (Aug 25, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Rearrange those words into a familiar saying. Answer:
> The poor , especially those who lost their jobs due to business relocation , shouldn’t support strikes for improved wages or indeed wage increases because food prices will go up and food choices will go down which will disproportionately affect them more than anyone . Socialist nirvana ? Don’t think so.



Incoherent ramble. Tackle my actual words - all of them - or don’t bother.


----------



## glitch hiker (Aug 25, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Thanks glitch hiker some honesty from your side, good to see some preparedness to face up to the near starvation of ordinary Britons and a clear plan emerge.


To be clear, Brexit is and was and will always be, a fucking bad idea. THere was never a lexit option and there isn't one on the horizon. IMO the working class are not best served by a right wing power grab from the worst people in power. Now we are cut off from comrades on the continent and the larger economy. The whole thing is a fucking shitshow


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Aug 25, 2021)

editor said:


> Does 'Tom' have any practical details about how these 3,600 EU drivers and meat processors will be "tempted back"?



I'm guessing his answer would involve the free market and wage rates in Britain compared to, say, Romania. While you're here, do you support the nascent plan to solve the 'Brexit food crisis'?


----------



## Supine (Aug 25, 2021)

Typical brexiteer. Screw everything up and then look to remainers to solve the issues


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Aug 25, 2021)

12.30 pm update on the employers plan to feed Britian:

Support for the Co-op CEO, NFU and food processors employers position: Badgers and Glitch Hiker
Exhaustion from posting memes about the 'Brexit food crisis' meaning a position on the new plan to solve the 'Brexit food crisis' is not available: Ski
Despite posting about it endlessly, I'm not that bothered: bimble
Err, well what do _you_ think about the employer led plan to solve these 'Brexit food shortages' that _we've_ been posting about and endlessly drawing attention to: various posters
Pending: Editor


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 25, 2021)

Supine said:


> Typical brexiteer. Screw everything up and then look to remainers to solve the issues


The poor , especially those who lost their jobs due to business relocation , shouldn’t support strikes for improved wages or indeed wage increases because food prices will go up and food choices will go down which will disproportionately effect them more than anyone . Socialist nirvana ? Don’t think so.


----------



## two sheds (Aug 25, 2021)

Still ignoring the question completely: Smokeandsteam


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 25, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> 12.30 pm update on the employers plan to feed Britian:
> 
> Support for the Co-op CEO, NFU and food processors employers position: Badgers and Glitch Hiker
> Exhaustion from posting memes about the 'Brexit food crisis' meaning a position on the new plan to solve the 'Brexit food crisis' is not available: Ski
> ...


Dont forget Supine's Daily Express type economic analysis


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Aug 25, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Dont forget Supine's Daily Express type economic analysis



Apologies:

Support for the Co-op CEO, NFU and food processors employers position: Badgers and Glitch Hiker
Exhaustion from posting memes about the 'Brexit food crisis' meaning a position on the new plan to solve the 'Brexit food crisis' is not available: Ski
Despite posting about it endlessly, I'm not that bothered: bimble
Err, well what do _you_ think about the employer led plan to solve these 'Brexit food shortages' that _we've_ been posting about and endlessly drawing attention to: various posters
Pending: Editor
Support with the caveat that the employers plan pays close attention to appropriate methods that keep wages and prices low (for the benefit of the poor): Supine


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Aug 25, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Still ignoring the question completely: Smokeandsteam


 see category 4 in the post above. That's you.


----------



## Supine (Aug 25, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Apologies:
> 
> Support for the Co-op CEO, NFU and food processors employers position: Badgers and Glitch Hiker
> Exhaustion from posting memes about the 'Brexit food crisis' meaning a position on the new plan to solve the 'Brexit food crisis' is not available: Ski
> ...



So you completely misunderstood my point and dodge the analysis that brexit is hurting the poorer in our society not helping. Well done


----------



## brogdale (Aug 25, 2021)

Question is irrelevant; we know that employers and their political wing will always ensure that the labour market will be rigged in their favour.


----------



## editor (Aug 25, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I'm guessing his answer would involve the free market and wage rates in Britain compared to, say, Romania. While you're here, do you support the nascent plan to solve the 'Brexit food crisis'?


Let's deal with Tom first. You repeatedly asked several people if they agreed with Tom but it turns out you _don't actually know what his plan is_ and can only take a guess at it. 

I'll wait until you can actually provide some detail of these plans before answering anything else.


----------



## two sheds (Aug 25, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> see category 4 in the post above. That's you.


I'm not a remainer. I just find it strange that you aggressively demand people answer your question (and ignore/rubbish any answer they give) when you refuse to answer it yourself.


----------



## brogdale (Aug 25, 2021)

two sheds said:


> I'm not a remainer. I just find it strange that you aggressively demand people answer your question (and ignore/rubbish any answer they give) when you refuse to answer it yourself.


That's Brexit loyalists, for you.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Aug 25, 2021)

So is this the thread for pissy remeainers blaming brexit for Covid related stuff?


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Aug 25, 2021)

editor said:


> Let's deal with Tom first. You repeatedly asked several people if they agreed with Tom but it turns out you _don't actually know what his plan is_ and can only take a guess at it.



Tom is quoted here. The problem for him is twofold: inflationary wage rises (he is opposed to them) and the lack of a reserve pool of labour ‘there is only one pool of labour’ (which presumably tackling also deals with the first problem). The answer is helpfully spelt out by another CEO in the same paragraph):









						Supply problems and labour shortages start to bite
					

A meeting of brassica growers last month ended on a gloomy note. “We might as well pack up and go home unless returns improve,” one grower said. The problem was not a shortage of demand for cabbages and broccoli but getting them out of the ground and onto the shelves. Farmers are facing acute supply




					www.thetimes.co.uk
				




So, do you support the employers plan to solve the ‘Brexit food crisis’?


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Aug 25, 2021)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> So is this the thread for pissy remeainers blaming brexit for Covid related stuff?


Yes.


----------



## ska invita (Aug 25, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Why do 'continuity' remain or the 'loyalist' brexiteers think that neoliberal exploitation of labour will alter as a result of supra-state membership status?


The case is that we are now "unfettered" from one powerful layer of legally binding neoliberal institutions, making the way clearer for a socialist government to transform the economy without being taken to court for doing so

As I said this morning, it is unclear to me just how unfettered we really are, the hard brexit deal continues obligations regarding state aid, though I guess even if there are still legal binds the position is both clearer and easier to break from if such a moment ever came to pass.


----------



## Raheem (Aug 25, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> The poor , especially those who lost their jobs due to business relocation , shouldn’t support strikes for improved wages or indeed wage increases because food prices will go up and food choices will go down which will disproportionately effect them more than anyone . Socialist nirvana ? Don’t think so.


This example isn't fundamentally about supporting or not supporting strikes, though. It's about supporting or not supporting government macroeconomic policy.

In, principle, I'll support almost any industrial action made feasible by the underlying conditions. But that doesn't have to mean welcoming the underlying conditions.


----------



## editor (Aug 25, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Tom is quoted here. The problem for him is twofold: inflationary wage rises (he is opposed to them) and the lack of a reserve pool of labour ‘there is only one pool of labour’ (which presumably tackling also deals with the first problem). The answer is helpfully spelt out by another CEO in the same paragraph):
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don't have access to that article as it's behind a paywall. If you're going to nag the fuck out of people for answers, at least have the courtesy to support your questions properly.

Re: the 'employers plan to solve the ‘Brexit food crisis’" - which employers are you talking about? And which plan? I imagine there's loads of different ones.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Aug 25, 2021)

editor said:


> I don't have access to that article as it's behind a paywall. If you're going to nag the fuck out of people for answers, at least have the courtesy to support your questions properly.
> 
> Re: the 'employers plan to solve the ‘Brexit food crisis’" - which employers are you talking about? And which plan? I imagine there's loads of different ones.



Hardly nagging, merely an enquiry: given the regularity and stridency of the posting about Brexit food crisis by a number of posters on this thread.

It's odd, given that regularity and stridency, that when an idea is advanced to solve it, nobody on here wants to talk about it, but there we go. Anyway...

A number of newspapers have carried the same report today which quotes the following:

- The CEO of the Co-op, Steve Murrells, has called for a relaxation of visa rules to help fill the 100,000 HGV job vacancies and has pointed out that, in hs expert opinion, tempting back the 13,300 EU drivers who have left the EU will solve the problem.

Tom Bradshaw, has agreed and points out that a similar problem exists in meat processing. His insight is that Brexit has led to people leaving the industry to get jobs as courier drivers, and had sparked record absence records as people are pinged on the Covid app. But, a bigger problems looms over the industry: labour.

His solution is the same as Steve's and he points out (behind the paywall) that "we are seeing huge inflationary wage pressures. But all that does is move workers from one job to another and create a problem somewhere else"  The problem is "that there is only one pool of labour": the solution is to create more pools of labour.  Whilst Tom doesn't say it I do not think we need to think hard about where he suggests we might find these pools...

- The British Meat Processors Association chief executive Nick Allen has used his expertise to arrive at the same conclusion:. Meat industry workforce talent pool is turning into a talent puddle - BMPA

The question is a simple one: do you support them?


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 25, 2021)

Raheem said:


> This example isn't fundamentally about supporting or not supporting strikes, though. It's about supporting or not supporting government macroeconomic policy.
> 
> In, principle, I'll support almost any industrial action made feasible by the underlying conditions. But that doesn't have to mean welcoming the underlying conditions.


Inclined to half agree with this , however can you expand on ‘ the underlying conditions ‘ ?


----------



## Raheem (Aug 25, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Inclined to half agree with this , however can you expand on ‘ the underlying conditions ‘ ?


IMO, there's less to the current driver shortage than some seem to think. I expect that food supply problems will be over before there is time to remedy them anyway, and I expect drivers will not profit so much over the medium term.

But there are some predicting that, if something is not done, there will be a chronic problem of food supply, perhaps lasting years, and getting worse before it gets better. For argument's sake, I'll adopt that scenario.

So, we could have a situation where HGV drivers stand to benefit from a lack of supply wrt their labour but, elsewhere in the production/supply chain, workers are losing hours and being laid off. Typically workers for whom things are more precarious than for HGV drivers, just as it happens. Not to mention, a lot of food is going to waste.

This would be a nonsensical situation, and it would be right for the government to bring it to an end if it is able. Which is not me setting worker against worker. The scenario does that, but I'm not a big fan of the scenario.

But, that is not to say I would object to drivers demanding more pay. It is not that that is causing the problem. Given that there is a problem, though, I would see it resolved, even if that is to the disappointment of drivers.


----------



## Supine (Aug 25, 2021)

OK - I’ll bite. Do I agree that getting more drivers would help? I don’t think wages is actually the biggest problem tbh but if they can’t recruit locally with higher wages then yes - adding drivers to the skills list that allows visas would be good idea.

Driver shortages are only one component of the issue though as the friction caused by brexit red tape is causing multiple problems with actually getting stuff into the uk. Its not a simple question of paying drivers a bit more to resolve the issue as far as I can see.

I only know one HGV driver and he does reasonably well financially. He hates being away from his kids so much though. 

Meanwhile - all the causes of supply chain woes are now worrying shops over christmas demand:









						Tesco and Iceland bosses warn over Christmas supplies
					

But Tesco's chairman says don't "overdramatise" lorry driver crisis, as Iceland warns problem getting worse.



					www.bbc.com


----------



## ska invita (Aug 25, 2021)

Raheem said:


> I expect that food supply problems will be over before there is time to remedy them anywa


Full border checks are yet to kick in, situation is expected to get worse


----------



## Badgers (Aug 25, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Full border checks are yet to kick in, situation is expected to get worse


Yup. This is guaranteed. That confirmation came from HMRC so we can take it 'best case' scenario.


----------



## bimble (Aug 25, 2021)

There’s no import checks yet on stuff coming in from the EU are there, cos government has kept delaying and extending ‘grace period’.


----------



## two sheds (Aug 25, 2021)

bimble said:


> There’s no import checks yet on stuff coming in from the EU are there, cos government has kept delaying and extending ‘grace period’.


Fucking government remainers


----------



## Raheem (Aug 25, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Full border checks are yet to kick in, situation is expected to get worse


Maybe, but I was really only talking about the shortage of drivers. Border checks may cause problems, but not the same problems.


----------



## bimble (Aug 25, 2021)

Once border checks on the way in are added to the checks on the way out I think the driver shortage will get worse, because again who will want to do the job of driving to the uK to sit at borders for unknown hours when you’re paid by distance.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 25, 2021)

bimble said:


> Once border checks on the way in are added to the checks on the way out I think the driver shortage will get worse, because again who will want to do the job of driving to the uK to sit at borders for unknown hours when you’re paid by distance.


Sure this distance thing is a load of nonsense


----------



## philosophical (Aug 25, 2021)

I hear the brexit busting ferries from the Republic of Ireland are doing good business.
Of course that may well go wrong depending on the ultimate circumstances on the EU/UK land border between two differing regulatory systems.


----------



## Raheem (Aug 25, 2021)

bimble said:


> Once border checks on the way in are added to the checks on the way out I think the driver shortage will get worse, because again who will want to do the job of driving to the uK to sit at borders for unknown hours when you’re paid by distance.


You're looking at it the wrong way. The less food comes into the country, the less there is to distribute. We could end up with a driver surplus.


----------



## bimble (Aug 25, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Sure this distance thing is a load of nonsense


Is it per hour ? So that the more hours it takes you to get from a to b the more £ you get? I doubt it.


----------



## editor (Aug 25, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Hardly nagging, merely an enquiry: given the regularity and stridency of the posting about Brexit food crisis by a number of posters on this thread.
> 
> It's odd, given that regularity and stridency, that when an idea is advanced to solve it, nobody on here wants to talk about it, but there we go. Anyway...
> 
> ...


It's just talk and opinions - there's no figures or anything substantial behind their comments, nor have I heard anything from the unions. 
I'll give you an opinion when there's something meaningful to comment on.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 25, 2021)

bimble said:


> Is it per hour ? So that the more hours it takes you to get from a to b the more £ you get? I doubt it.


Your doubt not a good substitute for your actual evidence, which I'd love to see


----------



## bimble (Aug 25, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Your doubt not a good substitute for your actual evidence, which I'd love to see


I did a google. All the results were from America. So all I can say with certainty is that, in America, truck drivers are paid by the mile.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 25, 2021)

bimble said:


> I did a google. All the results were from America. So all I can say with certainty is that, in America, truck drivers are paid by the mile.


Ah but in Europe FACT CHECK: Are Eastern European truck drivers paid per km driven?


----------



## bimble (Aug 25, 2021)

I


Pickman's model said:


> Ah but in Europe FACT CHECK: Are Eastern European truck drivers paid per km driven?


hmm. I am very not convinced by that.


----------



## Supine (Aug 25, 2021)

bimble said:


> I did a google. All the results were from America. So all I can say with certainty is that, in America, truck drivers are paid by the mile.



Probably best to look at job adverts at the moment


----------



## bimble (Aug 25, 2021)

Here we are.


So about 80% of Eastern European drivers are basically paid per km (in addition to base minimum wage)


			https://www.faire-mobilitaet.de/++co++59d278a8-212f-11e8-80dc-52540088cada


----------



## Elpenor (Aug 25, 2021)

Some truck drivers in the UK delivering for quarries etc are paid by a percentage of the value of the load they’re carrying - sort of the way share fisherman are (who are taxed in  very unique ways) - according to someone I knew who worked in that industry. Suspect it was a niche way of paying people.


----------



## two sheds (Aug 25, 2021)

Neighbour driving big trucks at night from Cornwall got paid flat rate whether he was doing 120-mile or 240-mile round trip drops. He got a lot of long journeys for some reason, meant he was often paid below minimum rate - getting back at 4 or 5 a.m. He said he was promised really good pay and conditions when he was interviewed, all of which mysteriously disappeared after he started.


----------



## Dogsauce (Aug 25, 2021)

I know wagon drivers used to get a decent wage about 25-30 years ago. I used to get a lift up to Leeds with one of the drivers from the place my dad worked at, he didn’t get loads (being only 12.5t I think) but stopped overnight at a truck place on the M62, had a lot of friends among the regulars there.

He said those doing the larger wagons on long runs were earning a fortune, some had speedboats, places in Spain etc. but never got to use them often as the job involved such long hours and many overnight stays - lots didn’t see much of their families.  I think it was well remunerated partly because of the antisocial nature.

I think the influx of drivers from overseas knocked all this back a bit, so suspect we’re seeing a bit of a correction at the moment.  At the same time I suspect those working for the big supermarkets or other large organisations probably never did as well out of it.

When I used to hitch a lot I found most lorry drivers were quite right-wing, some of that rugged independence/individualism type thing going on, not unlike what you find with some taxi drivers. Little empires and all that. These would have been mainly independents or self-employed, the big firms wouldn’t be allowed to pick anyone up.


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 25, 2021)

Dogsauce said:


> I know wagon drivers used to get a decent wage about 25-30 years ago. I used to get a lift up to Leeds with one of the drivers from the place my dad worked at, he didn’t get loads (being only 12.5t I think) but stopped overnight at a truck place on the M62, had a lot of friends among the regulars there.
> 
> He said those doing the larger wagons on long runs were earning a fortune, some had speedboats, places in Spain etc. but never got to use them often as the job involved such long hours and many overnight stays - lots didn’t see much of their families.  I think it was well remunerated partly because of the antisocial nature.
> 
> ...


At one time heavily unionised industry, same as building work before the days of 'self employment ' and agency work  gave some a few years boost in temporary earnings at the expense of workers rights. Then a sad  decline thereafter even at unionised firms. Glad to see some of this now picking up although very uneven.


----------



## Supine (Aug 25, 2021)

Interesting thread on various reasons for drivers shortages


----------



## Lurdan (Aug 26, 2021)

Supine said:


> Interesting thread on various reasons for drivers shortages



Easier to link to the original article
20 reasons why there is shortage of drivers in the UK – orynski.eu


----------



## bimble (Aug 26, 2021)

Lurdan said:


> Easier to link to the original article
> 20 reasons why there is shortage of drivers in the UK – orynski.eu


there it is! i found & posted that same link here a month ago and its where i got the idea that the delays from border checks means hours of making no money so why would they bother coming to the uk at all.


----------



## Elpenor (Aug 26, 2021)

A whole bundle of non Brexit reasons in there, such as there are now higher wages for truck drivers available in Eastern Europe.

Ultimately the British public has become addicted to cheap products, been built on the foundation of exploiting cheap labour costs.


----------



## Badgers (Aug 26, 2021)

UK retailers report lowest level of stock since 1983
					

Worker shortages, coupled with the effects of Covid-19 and Brexit, have left shelves empty across the industry.




					www.newstatesman.com
				




#worldbeating


----------



## krtek a houby (Aug 26, 2021)

Badgers said:


> UK retailers report lowest level of stock since 1983
> 
> 
> Worker shortages, coupled with the effects of Covid-19 and Brexit, have left shelves empty across the industry.
> ...



Nobody needs relative stock levels


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 26, 2021)

What happened in 1983 with relative stock levels? I can't remember anything about it.


----------



## gosub (Aug 26, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> Nobody needs relative stock levels


I just hope you don't run out of relatives this Xmas


----------



## krtek a houby (Aug 26, 2021)

gosub said:


> I just hope you don't run out of relatives this Xmas



Ouch


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 26, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> What happened in 1983 with relative stock levels? I can't remember anything about it.


i'd be surprised if you could, possibly ruddy yurts' worst album


----------



## Badgers (Aug 26, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> What happened in 1983 with relative stock levels? I can't remember anything about it.


Records began


----------



## krtek a houby (Aug 26, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> i'd be surprised if you could, possibly ruddy yurts' worst album



No empty shelves, there


----------



## Raheem (Aug 26, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Records began


CDs as well, around that time.


----------



## editor (Aug 26, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> No empty shelves, there


Are other European countries suffering similar problems or is it just us? And if so, why?


----------



## krtek a houby (Aug 26, 2021)

editor said:


> Are other European countries suffering these problems or is it just us? And if so, why?



Best ask Rudy's management.


----------



## editor (Aug 26, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> Best ask Rudy's management.


I've no idea what that means or its relevance to the question. Perhaps you might explain or - even better - just give me a straight answer to what I asked.


----------



## krtek a houby (Aug 26, 2021)

editor said:


> I've no idea what that means or its relevance to the question. Perhaps you might explain or - even better - just give me a straight answer to what I asked.



There's no straight answers.

(Only decent track off the album in question, in retrospect)


----------



## editor (Aug 26, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> There's no straight answers.
> 
> (Only decent track off the album in question, in retrospect)


What a waste of time you are today.


----------



## krtek a houby (Aug 26, 2021)

editor said:


> What a waste of time you are today.



The essential comeback album. Very underrated.


----------



## Supine (Aug 26, 2021)

Hahahahahaha









						Remainer hysteria over shortages does not mean Brexit is to blame
					

Supply chain problems are global, so pinning everything on our departure from the European Union makes very little sense




					www.telegraph.co.uk


----------



## Badgers (Aug 26, 2021)

The chains reporting food shortages due to post-Brexit HGV crisis
					

Many European drivers have left the country, Tesco chief explains




					www.independent.co.uk


----------



## Ax^ (Aug 26, 2021)

Supine said:


> Hahahahahaha
> 
> 
> 
> ...



is the same fuckwits not suggest if we stop investing in fossil fuel we will end up back in the dark ages, man of the future their


----------



## Badgers (Aug 26, 2021)

#worldbeating 









						Brexit food shortages could ‘cancel Christmas’ and last into 2022, says industry
					

Government warned supply disruption could last ‘at least 18 months’




					www.independent.co.uk


----------



## two sheds (Aug 26, 2021)

Does this mean everybody has to call it Winterval?


----------



## Badgers (Aug 26, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Does this mean everybody has to call it Winterval?


YES


----------



## Artaxerxes (Aug 27, 2021)

GDPR is dead long live GBDPR


----------



## Yossarian (Aug 27, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> The trouble with making claims like this is that when the the UK supply chain inevitably_ does not_ collapse in "two to three weeks", Richard Burnett's going to look like a bit of a tit.
> 
> I've made a diary note for the 24th of August, "check if UK supply chain has collapsed".



Was the 24th the day of the milkshakepocalypse?


----------



## two sheds (Aug 27, 2021)

thin edge of the apocalyptic wedge mate


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Aug 27, 2021)

A massive part of the HGV driver shortage are changes in the tax rules for non-UK drivers; they used to register themselves as limited companies and every penny they were paid was only subject to corporation tax, the rest could be sent home and spent.  Corporation tax is ~20%. This loophole was shut down this year which has made it far less attractive to work in the UK.


----------



## Supine (Aug 27, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> A massive part of the HGV driver shortage are changes in the tax rules for non-UK drivers; they used to register themselves as limited companies and every penny they were paid was only subject to corporation tax, the rest could be sent home and spent.  Corporation tax is ~20%. This loophole was shut down this year which has made it far less attractive to work in the UK.



If drivers were caught by IR35 they must have been well paid to make ltd company worthwhile!

They’d be paying dividend tax / income tax on top of the corp tax.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Aug 27, 2021)

Supine said:


> If drivers were caught by IR35 they must have been well paid to make ltd company worthwhile!
> 
> They’d be paying dividend tax / income tax on top of the corp tax.




Nope, if the individual is a limited company the money he earns is company profit, 100% of it, in the UK he'd pay dividend and/or income tax on it, but if a foreign national they could send it all home once corporation has has been paid. The loophole was closed as it was clearly unfair to domestic drivers, a shortage of drivers is the inevitable result.


----------



## Supine (Aug 27, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Nope, if the individual is a limited company the money he earns is company profit, 100% of it, in the UK he'd pay dividend and/or income tax on it, but if a foreign national they could send it all home once corporation has has been paid. The loophole was closed as it was clearly unfair to domestic drivers, a shortage of drivers is the inevitable result.



and then pay tax at home? If not then cheeky cnuts. I thought we were talking about uk based drivers tbh!


----------



## Badgers (Aug 28, 2021)




----------



## Badgers (Aug 28, 2021)

UK to ditch EU privacy rules in post-Brexit push to trade data ‘like oil’
					

‘What Oliver Dowden really means is that he wants to use Brexit to take away our privacy and data rights,’ says campaign group




					www.independent.co.uk


----------



## bimble (Aug 28, 2021)

The headlines about how there won't be enough pigs in blankets at xmas just seemed silly but this is pretty shit isnt it. Its not like these pigs are going to be set free to go trotting happily across the meadows. What a stupid waste.


----------



## Badgers (Aug 28, 2021)




----------



## bimble (Aug 28, 2021)

bimble said:


> Smokeandsteam what do you reckon, do you think that food production (fruit & veg & meat processing) will continue in the UK at the same scale it has been ?


Do any Brexiteers have a view on this at all? 

I'm increasingly convinced it's inevitable that british food production will collapse quite fast now, with imports replacing the production of most things. 
i just had a look at this farmers union report. 
it says that already lots of farms are planting significantly less stuff, or going for more monoculture to try to contain their losses, knowing they wont be able to get staff.


----------



## Badgers (Aug 28, 2021)

Subway might be shit food but at least they are honest.


----------



## two sheds (Aug 28, 2021)

Not sure I'd trust a Sandwich Artist to tell me anything


----------



## Badgers (Aug 28, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Not sure I'd trust a Sandwich Artist to tell me anything


I would trust them more than our government frankly.


----------



## two sheds (Aug 28, 2021)

Good point well made


----------



## two sheds (Aug 28, 2021)

I certainly wouldn't let anyone in the government make me a sandwich.


----------



## Badgers (Aug 28, 2021)

two sheds said:


> I certainly wouldn't let anyone in the government make me a sandwich.


I doubt any of the cabinet make their own coffee, let alone a sandwich.


----------



## two sheds (Aug 28, 2021)

or wipe their own bottoms


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 28, 2021)

Golden opportunity for someone to nip into Subway and ask a 'sandwich artist' for a detailed explanation of the impact of Brexit on supply chains and possible solutions.


----------



## Badgers (Aug 28, 2021)

The 'British Food' shelves at a French supermarket


----------



## andysays (Aug 28, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Not sure I'd trust a Sandwich Artist to tell me anything


Not sure I'd trust a company who patronisingly call their staff Sandwich Artists to tell me anything, but some people just seem to lap up that "companies blaming stuff other than their shit business practices for their failings", as this thread continues to demonstrate.


----------



## Badgers (Aug 28, 2021)

andysays said:


> Not sure I'd trust a company who patronisingly call their staff Sandwich Artists to tell me anything, but some people just seem to lap up that "companies blaming stuff other than their shit business practices for their failings", as this thread continues to demonstrate.


Pfft 

You would trust a lying cunts writing on the side of a fucking bus you fucking moron


----------



## two sheds (Aug 28, 2021)

andysays said:


> Not sure I'd trust a company who patronisingly call their staff Sandwich Artists to tell me anything,


Well quite, I was intending to blame company rather than the Sandwich Artists themselves, who likely have a PhD in biochemistry.


----------



## Maggot (Aug 28, 2021)

andysays said:


> Not sure I'd trust a company who patronisingly call their staff Sandwich Artists to tell me anything, but some people just seem to lap up that "companies blaming stuff other than their shit business practices for their failings", as this thread continues to demonstrate.


Funny how there's been a massive increase in 'shit business practices' recently.


----------



## krtek a houby (Aug 28, 2021)

Badgers said:


> The 'British Food' shelves at a French supermarket
> 
> View attachment 285578



Nobody goes to French supermarkets anyway


----------



## andysays (Aug 28, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Pfft
> 
> You would trust a lying cunts writing on the side of a fucking bus you fucking moron


Glad to see you're keeping to your normal high standards of debate


----------



## krtek a houby (Aug 28, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Not sure I'd trust a Sandwich Artist to tell me anything



A former Sandwich Artist says:


----------



## andysays (Aug 28, 2021)

Maggot said:


> Funny how there's been a massive increase in 'shit business practices' recently.


The shit business practices have been around for a while, it's just the combination of Brexit, Covid and other factors which have made them apparent to those who weren't paying attention before and didn't really care as long as they could get their milkshake or subway easily and cheaply.


----------



## Yossarian (Aug 28, 2021)

Maggot said:


> Funny how there's been a massive increase in 'shit business practices' recently.


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 28, 2021)

Badgers said:


> The 'British Food' shelves at a French supermarket
> 
> View attachment 285578


Thats terrible, how will the French cope without our wine, cheese  and tiger loaves?


----------



## Badgers (Aug 28, 2021)

andysays said:


> Glad to see you're keeping to your normal high standards of debate


No point in debating anything with Brexiteers.


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 28, 2021)

Badgers said:


> No point in debating anything with Brexiteers.


Come on, you and me do ok.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 28, 2021)

Badgers said:


> No point in debating anything with Brexiteers.


There's no actual point to so much of what we do here

If we started worrying about the point of what we do urban would collapse quicker than the Afghan government


----------



## two sheds (Aug 28, 2021)

Leaving armaments and personal details all over the place


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 28, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Leaving armaments and personal details all over the place


The government would get a roasting if this ever comes to court over flagrant breaches of data protection. Much good it'll do those slain by the Taliban


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 28, 2021)

Badgers said:


> No point in debating anything with Brexiteers.


Is it a full English brexit or not?


----------



## Yossarian (Aug 28, 2021)

Badgers said:


> No point in debating anything with Brexiteers.



The referendum was more than 5 years ago, what does "Brexiteer" even mean now - somebody who voted for Brexit? 

Somebody who voted for Brexit and fully supports how the Johnson government has handled it?

Somebody who voted for Brexit and thinks it has been mishandled but will eventually work out?

Somebody who has identified as a Brexiteer so strongly that they interpret criticism of any aspect of Brexit as a personal attack?


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 28, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> What does "Brexiteer" even mean now - somebody who voted for Brexit?
> 
> Somebody who voted for Brexit and fully supports how the Johnson government has handled it?
> 
> ...


Or any or all of the above


----------



## Badgers (Aug 28, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> What does "Brexiteer" even mean now - somebody who voted for Brexit?
> 
> Somebody who voted for Brexit and fully supports how the Johnson government has handled it?
> 
> ...


All the above


----------



## andysays (Aug 28, 2021)

Badgers said:


> All the above


All of the above, or any of the above?

I'm numbers 1 and possibly 3 on Yossarian's list, providing I can amend "will work out" to "might work out, especially if people can focus on who the real enemy is, rather than making shit comments about the side of buses".


----------



## bimble (Aug 28, 2021)

andysays said:


> All of the above, or any of the above?
> 
> I'm numbers 1 and possibly 3 on Yossarian's list, providing I can amend "will work out" to "might work out, especially if people can focus on who the real enemy is, rather than making shit comments about the side of buses".


Who is to blame for the 70,000 excess pigs? I think it’s not the farmers or the meat processing factory owners but basically the whole economic system that’s evolved over a long time making almost everybody expect their food to be cheap. That’s more complicated than just blaming the supermarkets for being greedy and mean imo.
 And I can’t see how it might change unless there’s some sort of transformation making Uk more like Switzerland (a little bubble of high pay high prices & protectionism). So brexit means we will just import more and make less food.


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 28, 2021)

First, they came for the supermarkets........


----------



## bimble (Aug 28, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> First, they came for the supermarkets........


That’s it that’s your response - If the supermarkets all just stopped being big meanies then British food production would be fine so let’s blame the supermarkets? Ok.


----------



## andysays (Aug 28, 2021)

bimble said:


> Who is to blame for the 70,000 excess pigs? I think it’s not the farmers or the meat processing factory owners but basically the whole economic system that’s evolved over a long time making almost everybody expect their food to be cheap. That’s more complicated than just blaming the supermarkets for being greedy and mean imo.
> And I can’t see how it might change unless there’s some sort of transformation making Uk more like Switzerland (a little bubble of high pay high prices & protectionism). So brexit means we will just import more and make less food.


I'm not blaming individual farmers or meat processing factory owners. It's part of the capitalist economic system that once some businesses have started with shitty practices, the others also have to, in order to remain competitive within the logic of the system.

But a crucial part of the cheap food system we've all mostly come to take for granted (at least as consumers, though maybe not if our jobs and livelihoods depend on it) is the reliance on cheap labour, often from poorer EU countries. 

Now that the double whammy of Brexit and Covid has significantly reduced the amount of cheap labour, things will have to change, and that change will almost inevitably include higher food prices.

I don't think that higher food prices are necessarily a bad thing, it depends on a whole variety of other factors, most critically on whether workers within the food production and distribution industries are able to use their potentially increased bargaining power to get better pay and conditions.


----------



## Supine (Aug 28, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> First, they came for the supermarkets........



And now my pub is shut because of staff shortages


----------



## Yossarian (Aug 28, 2021)

bimble said:


> That’s it that’s your response - If the supermarkets all just stopped being big meanies then British food production would be fine so let’s blame the supermarkets? Ok.



"Why not just avoid the supermarket and go to your local Portuguese grocer like I do?"


----------



## bimble (Aug 28, 2021)

I’m happy to play at let’s attack each other in a friendly way for fun over brexit but am genuinely sad about this, the whole food production thing.

andysays why do you think it will be higher prices for the same British produce rather than less British produce existing & importing more (cheap) food from countries than continue to employ workers who will work for less?

eg) our trade deal with New Zealand is almost done apparently, & expected to include lifting all tariffs & quotas on importing their meat, gradually over a few years.


----------



## two sheds (Aug 28, 2021)

andysays said:


> double whammy


----------



## andysays (Aug 28, 2021)

bimble said:


> I’m happy to play at let’s attack each other in a friendly way for fun over brexit but am genuinely sad about this, the whole food production thing.
> 
> andysays why do you think it will be higher prices for the same British produce rather than less British produce existing & importing more (cheap) food from countries than continue to employ workers who will work for less?


I haven't said it will be one rather than another. 

I would guess (and it is just a guess) that if it really is impossible for so much eg pig meat products to be produced in Britain there might be a short term increase in the amount imported from elsewhere. But those increased imports are likely to come at extra cost anyway, because foreign producers can't just magically come up with extra bacon to export Britain.

But in the longer term, I think many/most current British producers will recognise that if they want to stay in business, they have to take account of the new reality and not be quite so reliant on cheap labour, whether from the EU or domestically.


----------



## Yossarian (Aug 28, 2021)

Brexiteers: "Brexit won because middle-class people simply don't understand the concerns of working class people."

Also Brexiteers: "What's the problem with higher food prices?"


----------



## Supine (Aug 28, 2021)

Higher food prices that disproportionately impact the poor. Leading to inflation that impacts everyone. With more job losses adding to the pain.


----------



## bimble (Aug 28, 2021)

andysays said:


> I haven't said it will be one rather than another.
> 
> I would guess (and it is just a guess) that if it really is impossible for so much eg pig meat products to be produced in Britain there might be a short term increase in the amount imported from elsewhere. But those increased imports are likely to come at extra cost anyway, because foreign producers can't just magically come up with extra bacon to export Britain.
> 
> But in the longer term, I think many/most current British producers will recognise that if they want to stay in business, they have to take account of the new reality and not be quite so reliant on cheap labour, whether from the EU or domestically.


Agreed, but then, in time, it’ll be up to the supermarkets to choose to buy & stock the more expensive British stuff (pigs berries whatever) rather than the cheaper stuff from elsewhere? Maybe the additional costs of importing will make this not that big a difference as you say.


----------



## editor (Aug 28, 2021)

andysays said:


> Not sure I'd trust a company who patronisingly call their staff Sandwich Artists to tell me anything, but some people just seem to lap up that "companies blaming stuff other than their shit business practices for their failings", as this thread continues to demonstrate.



Your level of denial is hitting conspiraloon levels now.




andysays said:


> All of the above, or any of the above?
> 
> I'm numbers 1 and possibly 3 on Yossarian's list, providing I can amend "will work out" to "might work out, especially if people can focus on who the real enemy is, rather than making shit comments about the side of buses".


You probably can't see it, but you're way more likely to register as a number four.


----------



## MrSki (Aug 28, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> The referendum was more than 5 years ago, what does "Brexiteer" even mean now - somebody who voted for Brexit?
> 
> Somebody who voted for Brexit and fully supports how the Johnson government has handled it?
> 
> ...


Or someone who did not see anything wrong with a referendum that was found to be illegal & was funded by dodgy Russian & American cash that for some strange reason wanted to avoid billionaires paying tax & weaken the EU 

You can tell I am not bitter.  

Maybe a Brexiteer is someone who still thinks the shooting of yourself in the foot to spite your face was a good idea for working class people. Still I am sure one day someone will come up with a benefit. I suppose food shortages will help with the obesity problem.


----------



## Supine (Aug 28, 2021)

I actually discovered a benefit!!!

The GDPR data changes stuff. Most of it will be damaging, a waste of time, or pointless. They are looking at removing those annoying popups about accepting cookies. At least for some websites. That’d be a brexit bonus


----------



## MrSki (Aug 28, 2021)

Supine said:


> I actually discovered a benefit!!!
> 
> The GDPR data changes stuff. Most of it will be damaging, a waste of time, or pointless. They are looking at removing those annoying popups about accepting cookies. At least for some websites. That’d be a brexit bonus


Yeah will be great when dodgy companies can sell their data on you to each other. A proper bonus. Good try though.


----------



## two sheds (Aug 28, 2021)

Supine said:


> I actually discovered a benefit!!!
> 
> The GDPR data changes stuff. Most of it will be damaging, a waste of time, or pointless. They are looking at removing those annoying popups about accepting cookies. At least for some websites. That’d be a brexit bonus


Firefox has an add on that just accepts them, with another add on that deletes cookies that try to follow you round


----------



## Badgers (Aug 28, 2021)

Supine said:


> I actually discovered a benefit!!!
> 
> The GDPR data changes stuff. Most of it will be damaging, a waste of time, or pointless. They are looking at removing those annoying popups about accepting cookies. At least for some websites. That’d be a brexit bonus


Data will be traded like oil kinda bonus? 









						UK to ditch EU privacy rules in post-Brexit push to trade data ‘like oil’
					

‘What Oliver Dowden really means is that he wants to use Brexit to take away our privacy and data rights,’ says campaign group




					www.independent.co.uk
				




#worldbeating


----------



## Supine (Aug 28, 2021)

I admit I was scraping the barrel looking for a benefit


----------



## Badgers (Aug 28, 2021)

There will be no more routine blood tests until further notice.


----------



## bimble (Aug 28, 2021)

The % of people’s household income that gets spent on food has been pretty consistent for a long time (obvs it’s a higher % the less money you have coming in), but within that poorer people basically buy less of whatever’s gone up in price & try to find cheaper food whilst richer people will just buy whatever it is anyway.
 So idk if ‘our food will just need to cost more (& let’s hope some of the people who work making our food will earn more)’ is a completely great plan.


----------



## ska invita (Aug 28, 2021)

bimble said:


> I’m happy to play at let’s attack each other in a friendly way for fun over brexit but am genuinely sad about this, the whole food production thing.


Dont be sad, food production needs a long overdue massive reconfiguration. 
Judgement day will be once CAP subsidies stop in three years iirc. It'll put lots of UK meat farmers out of business, but that's what the world desperately needs to happen. 
I'd rather it was done constructively and as painlessly as possible by a socialist government but if it has to happen by the wrecking ball of free marketeers, so be it .

We need to move a lot further towards veganism, and meat eaters can eat lab grown stuff.


----------



## two sheds (Aug 28, 2021)

Badgers said:


> There will be no more routine blood tests until further notice.


I'd heard that was a worldwide shortage though.


----------



## bimble (Aug 28, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Dont be sad, food production needs a long overdue massive reconfiguration.
> Judgement day will be once CAP subsidies stop in three years iirc. It'll put lots of UK meat farmers out of business, but that's what the world desperately needs to happen.
> I'd rather it was done constructively and as painlessly as possible by a socialist government but if it has to happen by the wrecking ball of free marketeers, so be it .
> 
> We need to move a lot further towards veganism, and meat eaters can eat lab grown stuff.


Ok but what about the vegetables? Same problem. And I’m not sure that there’ll be more vegans instead of just more imported meat tbh.


----------



## two sheds (Aug 28, 2021)

mineral based diets


----------



## Badgers (Aug 28, 2021)

two sheds said:


> I'd heard that was a worldwide shortage though.


I have not but would be interested to read more about it.









						Brexit supply shortage 'threatens blood tests', GPs warn
					

Jez Hemming, local democracy reporter GPs are “seriously concerned” about being able to take enough blood samples because of “Brexit” supply problems. They have been told there’s a shortage of the receptacles used to collect blood which are supplied by United States concern Becton, Dickinson and...



					nation.cymru


----------



## Cerv (Aug 28, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Dont be sad, food production needs a long overdue massive reconfiguration.
> Judgement day will be once CAP subsidies stop in three years iirc. It'll put lots of UK meat farmers out of business, but that's what the world desperately needs to happen.


isn't this just a bit too close to Johnson's comments last week that it was great for the environment that Thatcher closed the mines?
the effect isn't going to be a reduction in the consumption of meat (or coal) it's just shifting the production elsewhere for us to import.


----------



## ska invita (Aug 28, 2021)

Lack of care workers this winter sounds a total disaster resulting in deaths


----------



## ska invita (Aug 28, 2021)

Cerv said:


> isn't this just a bit too close to Johnson's comments last week that it was great for the environment that Thatcher closed the mines?
> the effect isn't going to be a reduction in the consumption of meat (or coal) it's just shifting the production elsewhere for us to import.


Prices will go up... Less will be consumed and farmed


----------



## bimble (Aug 28, 2021)

It might only be a part of the problem but the company that nhs buys their blood bottles from seems to think brexit is a part of the issue.

I got a text from Gp saying ‘no routine blood tests’, which I don’t really get cos who has blood tests as a hobby for no reason.


----------



## Badgers (Aug 28, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Lack of care workers this winter sounds a total disaster resulting in deaths


Alongside the lack of nurses and other minor 'teething problems'? 

Of course, Brexit is still something worth supporting


----------



## Cerv (Aug 28, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Prices will go up... Less will be consumed and farmed


we keep getting promised cheaper meat imports from countries where production is less expensive & with lower or no imports tariffs though.


----------



## Supine (Aug 28, 2021)

bimble said:


> It might only be a part of the problem but the company that nhs buys their blood bottles from seems to think brexit is a part of the issue.
> View attachment 285605
> I got a text from Gp saying ‘no routine blood tests’, which I don’t really get cos who has blood tests as a hobby for no reason.



It’s temp ban on things like vitamin levels etc that help lifestyle decisions as far as i know.  I’m sure if your dieing they will rustle up some sample tubes.


----------



## ska invita (Aug 28, 2021)

Cerv said:


> isn't this just a bit too close to Johnson's comments last week that it was great for the environment that Thatcher closed the mines?
> the effect isn't going to be a reduction in the consumption of meat (or coal) it's just shifting the production elsewhere for us to import.


On one level Johnson was right - closing the mines was good for the environment.
What makes what he said deeply offensive was that it was said as a defence of Thatcher, whose motive was to deliberately crush the unions and the lives of the defiant workers, not just with no sympathy for their plight but utter contempt.

My understanding of that time was that unions recognised that a transition from coal was necessary and wanted to negotiate a way of doing so whilst protecting livelihoods. What should've happened is what is being proposed in Green New Deals, such as the state playing a role in reskilling people working in arms factories to green tech. Much work on this is done, by unions and campaigners, and is ready to implement - right wing governments stand in the way.

As I said I'd rather it was done constructively and as painlessly as possible by a socialist government but if it has to happen by the wrecking ball of free marketeers, so be it. In England we live in a perpetual right wing neo-feudal state, with climate crisis doomsday clock ticking against us. If Brexit throws multiple spanners in the engines of continuous growth and other forms of obscene production, that's as much of a political victory as can be hoped for, and is something to build on.


----------



## two sheds (Aug 28, 2021)

Badgers said:


> I have not but would be interested to read more about it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Quite possible - I'd just heard from a mate who's having bloods and he said the nurse told him it was worldwide shortage. So "apocryphal or at least wildly innaccurate"


----------



## Supine (Aug 28, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Quite possible - I'd just heard from a mate who's having bloods and he said the nurse told him it was worldwide shortage. So "apocryphal or at least wildly innaccurate"



Probably making vaccine vials instead!


----------



## Serene (Aug 28, 2021)

Was listening to a couple of Gammons, who voted Brexit, complaining that there arent enough Lorry drivers.


----------



## Badgers (Aug 28, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Quite possible - I'd just heard from a mate who's having bloods and he said the nurse told him it was worldwide shortage. So "apocryphal or at least wildly innaccurate"


No worries. I had a search about and could find no shortages anywhere else. Same for other countries 'supply issues' or 'high demand' or massive nurse shortages or a lot of other stuff.


----------



## Badgers (Aug 29, 2021)

Won't link to Ze Hail but this is an unusual stance from the EU hating cunts.


----------



## Badgers (Aug 29, 2021)

Torygraph praising the EU Covid response 









						How Europe is pulling ahead of Britain in the great Covid race
					

The Continent appears to be better prepared for winter after decisive action on jabs – how might UK policymakers respond?




					www.telegraph.co.uk


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 29, 2021)

Unite ( the trade union)  statement on food labour shortages









						Supermarkets must take responsibility for HGV and food labour shortages
					






					www.unitetheunion.org


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 29, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Torygraph praising the EU Covid response
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Looks more like why aren't we world-beating?


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 29, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Won't link to Ze Hail but this is an unusual stance from the EU hating cunts.
> 
> View attachment 285769


Strange times make for strange bed-fellows


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 29, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Torygraph praising the EU Covid response
> 
> 
> 
> ...


There are only three aspects of an  'EU Covid response '- a stimulus package which is in two parts ;a grant and a loan the latter has to be considered as part of the national debt ratio, the bulk purchase of vaccines, and the EU digital passport for travel within EU states. The rest including rate of vaccine and preventative measures are country by country.


----------



## Badgers (Aug 29, 2021)

More from Brexit promoting Ze Heil cunts


----------



## Supine (Aug 29, 2021)

They’ll be promoting rejoin within six months


----------



## two sheds (Aug 29, 2021)

Supine said:


> They’ll be promoting rejoin within six months


"Let's Unite with the EU ..." they already are


----------



## philosophical (Aug 29, 2021)

It is amusing that the piece above talks about ‘both sides’ being damaged.
The UK trades 43% with the EU, and the EU around 12%. By my reckoning there is no both sides equivalence there, the EU can absorb the crap Brexit voters called on much more easily than the UK.
No reality will impact on the cunt brexiteers who think their vote was a good thing, the depth of xenophobia deep in the UK is cemented in.
As far as I can tell there is no rapprochement between leavers and remainers, no ‘benefit’ of Brexit beyond legitimising anti ‘foreigner’ feeling, no step forward for those of the left, nothing worthwhile whatsoever.
In my view everybody who voted Brexit is a cunt no matter how much desperate equivocation they try to bring to bear on it.


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 29, 2021)

Labour Party Conference coming up , wonder if there will be a motion or a fringe meeting on rejoining the EU?


----------



## platinumsage (Aug 29, 2021)

Badgers said:


> No worries. I had a search about and could find no shortages anywhere else. Same for other countries 'supply issues' or 'high demand' or massive nurse shortages or a lot of other stuff.



A BBC article this morning.

Frankly there are so many types of tube that blood can be put in, there’s nothing special about them, so I don’t see this as anything other than a problem with NHS procurement. If BD don’t have enough of the normal tubes, use some different tubes ffs, maybe even from a different company. There are probably contractural issues and stuff. Certainly nothing to do with Brexit.


----------



## Badgers (Aug 29, 2021)

platinumsage said:


> Certainly nothing to do with Brexit.


Nothing is eh? Sunlit Uplands are in plain sight


----------



## Supine (Aug 29, 2021)

platinumsage said:


> A BBC article this morning.
> 
> Frankly there are so many types of tube that blood can be put in, there’s nothing special about them, so I don’t see this as anything other than a problem with NHS procurement. If BD don’t have enough of the normal tubes, use some different tubes ffs, maybe even from a different company. There are probably contractural issues and stuff. Certainly nothing to do with Brexit.



That article specifically mentions problems with shipments at borders as a factor.

Looks like the main issue is global glass supply though:



			https://www.ismworld.org/supply-management-news-and-reports/news-publications/inside-supply-management-magazine/blog/2020-09/when-bottles-as-in-medical-vials-become-the-bottleneck/


----------



## Badgers (Aug 29, 2021)

Been following this chaps blog for a while. Here is the latest which is a good read. 





__





						Post-Brexit Britain can't be realistic until it's truthful
					

<a rel="me" href="https://mastodon.online/@ChrisGrey">Mastodon</a>




					chrisgreybrexitblog.blogspot.com


----------



## UKSmartyPants (Aug 29, 2021)

Supine said:


> You taking piss or serious? Brexit had no influence on the UK's vaccine procurement. None.


Doh ofc it did. If we had been in the Eu we'd have had to stand in the queue with the other 28 members and waited and waited and waited and waited while Von Leyden and her band of EU hobgoblins made a complete hash of negotiating with the Pharmas, resulting in most of the Eu being two to three months behind the UK on their vaccine rollouts, not withstanding several Eu members states  gave up on the Eu eventually and started their own procurement processes. And we won't even go into the excess deaths caused by Von Leydens absurd narcissist  and racist political posturing and attacks on AZ, (who were selling the vaccine at cost price, by the way), just because it was a UK company


----------



## UKSmartyPants (Aug 29, 2021)

dessiato said:


> Brexit has fucked me over big time. I have lived and traveled extensively in the EU. My work depends to a large extent on having the freedom to move and live in the EU. All this has gone. My current and future life, the life of my wife, is now pretty much fucked.
> 
> I am looking at, and studying for, becoming a Spanish citizenship. Just so I can live how I have for the vast majority of my life.
> 
> ...


well the problem is you want your cake and you want to eat it.  I  moved here striaght after brexit vote, and now live in Alicante, and I voted for brexit. That was against my interests, but i put country first. MY interests have now been covered by getting residentia, and moving to Spain lock stock and barrel. Your interests and the UK's  interests aren't hard to reconcile, if you are intellectually honest.

The fact is a lot of remainers voted remain out of personal interest, rather than considering the best interests of their home country.  Most Brexiteers, however, voted for the best interests of the Uk as a whole.  Wanting the benefits of living in the Uk and being able to swan about making money in the poor parts of europe involved an arrangement that was destroying the UK.


----------



## MysteryGuest (Aug 29, 2021)

Yes but what do you think about the Cranberries? I think they're a shit band of history myself ...


----------



## MysteryGuest (Aug 29, 2021)

Just like you're a shit troll in the here and now tbh...


----------



## Supine (Aug 29, 2021)

UKSmartyPants said:


> Doh ofc it did. If we had been in the Eu we'd have had to stand in the queue with the other 28 members and waited and waited and waited and waited while Von Leyden and her band of EU hobgoblins made a complete hash of negotiating with the Pharmas, resulting in most of the Eu being two to three months behind the UK on their vaccine rollouts, not withstanding several Eu members states  gave up on the Eu eventually and started their own procurement processes. And we won't even go into the excess deaths caused by Von Leydens absurd narcissist  and racist political posturing and attacks on AZ, (who were selling the vaccine at cost price, by the way), just because it was a UK company



Oh great, another new member. Talking bollocks with the best of them


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 29, 2021)

Supine said:


> You taking piss or serious? Brexit had no influence on the UK's vaccine procurement. None.



 How terrible is wisdom when it brings no profit to the wise, Johnny?


“The United Kingdom has chosen the path of emergency marketing authorisations, we have chosen another,” Mrs von der Leyen told a group of European newspaper

“Alone, a country can be a speedboat, while the EU is more like a tanker,” Mrs von der Leyen said.









						'The best advert for Brexit': European press reacts to EU Covid vaccine row
					

Continental newspapers give harsh verdicts on the European commission’s actions




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Supine (Aug 29, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> How terrible is wisdom when it brings no profit to the wise, Johnny?
> 
> 
> “The United Kingdom has chosen the path of emergency marketing authorisations, we have chosen another,” Mrs von der Leyen told a group of European newspaper
> ...



all very well - but the proposition is that brexit allowed the uk to do things differently.

This argument falls down as 1. The uk had not left at that point 2. Joint procurement was optional for members so uk could always have done whatever they wanted in purchasing 3. Emergency use authorisation has always been for member states to decide independently. So brexit cannot be used as a way of helping…


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 29, 2021)

Supine said:


> all very well - but the proposition is that brexit allowed the uk to do things differently.
> 
> This argument falls down as 1. The uk had not left at that point 2. Joint procurement was optional for members so uk could always have done whatever they wanted in purchasing 3. Emergency use authorisation has always been for member states to decide independently. So brexit cannot be used as a way of helping…


Great pity you didn't inform the EU that at the time , it could have changed their entire communications strategy and correct the 'false 'impression that the European media gave out on a daily basis that it was  Brexit that enabled the UK to both purchase and roll out the vaccine earlier and more quickly and that the EU had been too slow , too and too cautious. 
I have always found it odd that hard core UK remainers have a completely different and rosy coloured view of the EU than most  Europeans that support the EU.


----------



## krtek a houby (Aug 29, 2021)

UKSmartyPants said:


> well the problem is you want your cake and you want to eat it.  I  moved here striaght after brexit vote, and now live in Alicante, and I voted for brexit. That was against my interests, but i put country first. MY interests have now been covered by getting residentia, and moving to Spain lock stock and barrel. Your interests and the UK's  interests aren't hard to reconcile, if you are intellectually honest.
> 
> The fact is a lot of remainers voted remain out of personal interest, rather than considering the best interests of their home country.  Most Brexiteers, however, voted for the best interests of the Uk as a whole.  Wanting the benefits of living in the Uk and being able to swan about making money in the poor parts of europe involved an arrangement that was destroying the UK.



You voted and then ran away to eat your cake elsewhere, eh.

Country first. Lol.


----------



## two sheds (Aug 29, 2021)

it voted and then /checks notes/ ran away


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 29, 2021)

UKSmartyPants said:


> well the problem is you want your cake and you want to eat it.  I  moved here striaght after brexit vote, and now live in Alicante, and I voted for brexit. That was against my interests, but i put country first. MY interests have now been covered by getting residentia, and moving to Spain lock stock and barrel. Your interests and the UK's  interests aren't hard to reconcile, if you are intellectually honest.
> 
> The fact is a lot of remainers voted remain out of personal interest, rather than considering the best interests of their home country.  Most Brexiteers, however, voted for the best interests of the Uk as a whole.  Wanting the benefits of living in the Uk and being able to swan about making money in the poor parts of europe involved an arrangement that was destroying the UK.


Tremendous self sacrifice there pal.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 29, 2021)

UKSmartyPants said:


> well the problem is you want your cake and you want to eat it.  I  moved here striaght after brexit vote, and now live in Alicante, and I voted for brexit. That was against my interests, but i put country first. MY interests have now been covered by getting residentia, and moving to Spain lock stock and barrel. Your interests and the UK's  interests aren't hard to reconcile, if you are intellectually honest.
> 
> The fact is a lot of remainers voted remain out of personal interest, rather than considering the best interests of their home country.  Most Brexiteers, however, voted for the best interests of the Uk as a whole.  Wanting the benefits of living in the Uk and being able to swan about making money in the poor parts of europe involved an arrangement that was destroying the UK.


I am glad you realised your country's interests best served by your leaving it


----------



## Badgers (Aug 29, 2021)




----------



## Supine (Aug 29, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Great pity you didn't inform the EU that at the time , it could have changed their entire communications strategy and correct the 'false 'impression that the European media gave out on a daily basis that it was  Brexit that enabled the UK to both purchase and roll out the vaccine earlier and more quickly and that the EU had been too slow , too and too cautious.
> I have always found it odd that hard core UK remainers have a completely different and rosy coloured view of the EU than most  Europeans that support the EU.



I don’t know or particularly care what their comms strategy was. What I have mentioned is the facts.

In terms of roll out speed there were also a number of factors and none of them were political so brexit was also irrelevant. This included oxford uni going ahead with clinical trials and batch mfg at risk ahead of funding agreements. Also during the tech transfer of AZ to other manufacturing sites there were some lower than expected initial yields in eu factories (a run of mill manufacturing challenge that again isnt brexit related).


----------



## Badgers (Aug 29, 2021)




----------



## The39thStep (Aug 29, 2021)

Supine said:


> I don’t know or particularly care what their comms strategy was. What I have mentioned is the facts.
> 
> In terms of roll out speed there were also a number of factors and none of them were political so brexit was also irrelevant. This included oxford uni going ahead with clinical trials and batch mfg at risk ahead of funding agreements. Also during the tech transfer of AZ to other manufacturing sites there were some lower than expected initial yields in eu factories (a run of mill manufacturing challenge that again isnt brexit related).


True Faith


----------



## UKSmartyPants (Aug 29, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> You voted and then ran away to eat your cake elsewhere, eh.
> 
> Country first. Lol.


no, i was planning retiring to Spain anyway,  the difference was whether you seriously commit yourself and took Spanish residentia/citizen ship, or just played at it, rather than trying to live in the Uk and flit back and forth - thats wanting your cake and eating it. Wanting the benefits of both with neither of the disadvantages. . The latter option, being the reason a lot of remainers voted remain, cost the Uk as a whole too much.


----------



## UKSmartyPants (Aug 29, 2021)

Badgers said:


> View attachment 285793


You dump the neighbours who are screwing you and robbing you, and set up trade deals with £2T with the rest of the planet, which benefits you more in the long run, and returns your sovereignty to you.   The Uk economy is now racing ahead.

The EU, on the other hand, is a dead duck, Its share of world GPD, which was 32% in 1972, has shrunk every year since then and now is 16% and continues to shrink.  Or trad with the Eu, on the other hand is 20% down and continuing to shrink, mainly because of EU intransigence on rules, as complained about  by many Eu companies.  Not to mention the French, who, having plundered about £2B worth of fish out our waters in 43 years, suddenly find the fish money tree is closed.....

The UK had a trade deficit with the EU of £51 billion in 2020 and a trade surplus of £43 billion with non-EU countries.   ergo we need to be trading with the outside world. that makes us money. Not the eu.









						Trade: Key Economic Indicators - House of Commons Library
					

Latest statistics on UK's trade performance and balance of payments




					commonslibrary.parliament.uk


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 29, 2021)

UKSmartyPants said:


> no, i was planning retiring to Spain anyway,  the difference was whether you seriously commit yourself and took Spanish residentia/citizen ship, or just played at it, rather than trying to live in the Uk and flit back and forth - thats wanting your cake and eating it. Wanting the benefits of both with neither of the disadvantages. . The latter option, being the reason a lot of remainers voted remain, cost the Uk as a whole too much.


If you're committing yourself to Spain I'm sure you won't want to cost the UK money by taking your pension out of it


----------



## krtek a houby (Aug 29, 2021)

UKSmartyPants said:


> no, i was planning retiring to Spain anyway,  the difference was whether you seriously commit yourself and took Spanish residentia/citizen ship, or just played at it, rather than trying to live in the Uk and flit back and forth - thats wanting your cake and eating it. Wanting the benefits of both with neither of the disadvantages. . The latter option, being the reason a lot of remainers voted remain, cost the Uk as a whole too much.



Keepin it real. Uh huh.


----------



## Badgers (Aug 29, 2021)

Wanker


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 29, 2021)

UKSmartyPants said:


> You dump the neighbours who are screwing you and robbing you, and set up trade deals with £2T with the rest of the planet, which benefits you more in the long run, and returns your sovereignty to you.   The Uk economy is now racing ahead.
> 
> The EU, on the other hand, is a dead duck, Its share of world GPD, which was 32% in 1972, has shrunk every year since then and now is 16% and continues to shrink.  Or trad with the Eu, on the other hand is 20% down and continuing to shrink, mainly because of EU intransigence on rules, as complained about  by many Eu companies.  Not to mention the French, who, having plundered about £2B worth of fish out our waters in 43 years, suddenly find the fish money tree is closed.....
> 
> ...


The EU share of world GDP in 1972 was 0%


----------



## krtek a houby (Aug 29, 2021)

UKS... marty... Pants...


----------



## nogojones (Aug 29, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> You voted and then ran away to eat your cake elsewhere, eh.
> 
> Country first. Lol.


Is it called Jamon, when you do gammon like things then fuck off to the Costa del Sol?


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 29, 2021)

nogojones said:


> Is it called Jamon, when you do gammon like things then fuck off to the Costa del Sol?


Like in the Gary Glitter song

Jamon jamon
Jamon jamon
Do you wanna be in my gang
Etc


----------



## philosophical (Aug 29, 2021)

UKSmartyPants said:


> well the problem is you want your cake and you want to eat it.  I  moved here striaght after brexit vote, and now live in Alicante, and I voted for brexit. That was against my interests, but i put country first. MY interests have now been covered by getting residentia, and moving to Spain lock stock and barrel. Your interests and the UK's  interests aren't hard to reconcile, if you are intellectually honest.
> 
> The fact is a lot of remainers voted remain out of personal interest, rather than considering the best interests of their home country.  Most Brexiteers, however, voted for the best interests of the Uk as a whole.  Wanting the benefits of living in the Uk and being able to swan about making money in the poor parts of europe involved an arrangement that was destroying the UK.



When you voted brexit what plan did you have for the land border  in Ireland?


----------



## UKSmartyPants (Aug 29, 2021)

philosophical said:


> When you voted brexit what plan did you have for the land border  in Ireland?




It wasnt up to me. We wernt asked to devise a plan. Thats what we employ politicians and civil servants for, to do the planning . We were just asked a yes/no question.


----------



## philosophical (Aug 29, 2021)

UKSmartyPants said:


> It wasnt up to me. We wernt asked to devise a plan. Thats what we employ politicians and civil servants for, to do the planning . We were just asked a yes/no question.


What you voted for in the yes/no question hasn't happened.


----------



## UKSmartyPants (Aug 29, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> If you're committing yourself to Spain I'm sure you won't want to cost the UK money by taking your pension out of it


Why shouldn't I? . A pension isnt a benefit, its  contractually obligatory  payout on a matured insurance policy, thats why the insurance premium payments are  called' national *insurance* contributions'.  And the pot of money is the property of everyone that has paid into it, it does not belong to the Government.  I could equally argue you have no right to claim off your house insurance if you are burgled when you are out the country.

Really, you are wheeling out some hoary old chestnuts here, arent you?


----------



## UKSmartyPants (Aug 29, 2021)

philosophical said:


> What you voted for in the yes/no question hasn't happened.


It has happened to mine, and millions of other peoples, satisfaction.  If you arent happy, tough, thats democracy.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 29, 2021)

UKSmartyPants said:


> Why shouldn't I? . A pension isnt a benefit, its  contractually obligatory  payout on a matured insurance policy, thats why the insurance premium payments are  called' national *insurance* contributions'.  And the pot of money is the property of everyone that has paid into it, it does not belong to the Government.  I could equally argue you have no right to claim off your house insurance if you are burgled when you are out the country.
> 
> Really, you are wheeling out some hoary old chestnuts here, arent you?


Go on then

I'm sure you can link to this contract you claim exists too. Not sure why you've introduced this but about who the money belongs to, but I'm sure you'll enlighten me


----------



## UKSmartyPants (Aug 29, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> The EU share of world GDP in 1972 was 0%


EU........EEC.........Iron and Steel Federation...... Hair-splitting. It is de facto the same body in different clothes.   I really hate hair-splitters and grammar nazis, they are both  lefty tactics by people really  with nothing to contribute.  Its smacks of a desperate attempt to get into a thread with nothing to actually contribute.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 29, 2021)

UKSmartyPants said:


> It has happened to mine, and millions of other peoples, satisfaction.  If you arent happy, tough, thats democracy.


No it isn't


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 29, 2021)

UKSmartyPants said:


> EU........EEC.........Iron and Steel Federation...... Hair-splitting. It is de facto the same body in different clothes.   I really hate hair-splitters and grammar nazis, they are both  lefty tactics by people really  with nothing to contribute.  Its smacks of a desperate attempt to get into a thread with nothing to actually contribute.


It's not the same body. The brexit campaign made a great deal of capital pointing out that the ever closer union of the EU was greatly different from the common market trading bloc which heath took the UK into.


----------



## UKSmartyPants (Aug 29, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Go on then
> 
> I'm sure you can link to this contract you claim exists too. Not sure why you've introduced this but about who the money belongs to, but I'm sure you'll enlighten me


well why dont you consider  what "Contracting Out" of the pension means, and what the opposite is.......

Why dont you read this, and take note of the language in it......





__





						Pensions in the national accounts, a fuller picture of the UK’s funded and unfunded pension obligations - Office for National Statistics
					

Estimates of the total entitlement of households in the UK and abroad to pensions provided by UK government, pension funds and insurance companies.



					www.ons.gov.uk
				




_"This article presents estimates of the total entitlement of households in the UK and abroad to pensions provided by the *UK government, pension funds and insurance companies*. These are also the* total obligations, or gross liabilities, of UK pension providers.* The article includes estimates for State Pensions and breakdowns by whether pensions are funded or unfunded and defined contribution or defined benefit. The estimates are compiled for national accounts *Table 29: Accrued-to-date pension entitlements in social insurance, *which is being published by all EU countries for 2015. For the UK, the years 2010 to 2014 are also provided."_

all pensions have a contract attached to them somewhere......or they wouldnt be legal.....and thers the killer phrase.._* social insurance *_Public and state founded on a principle of Trusts, using laws established by statute in the 18th and 19th century, and are nightmarishly complex.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 29, 2021)

UKSmartyPants said:


> well why dont you consider  what "Contracting Out" of the pension means, and what the opposite is.......
> 
> Why dont you read this, and take note of the language in it......
> 
> ...


I'm not seeing anything there about the argument you said you could make

I see you can't produce the contract. Such a pity


----------



## bimble (Aug 29, 2021)

UKSmartyPants would you have been able to do your move to spain after brexit happened (with the new rules about how much money you need to have coming in every month etc)? Or did you have to eat your cake quickly sort of thing.


----------



## andysays (Aug 29, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Unite ( the trade union)  statement on food labour shortages
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well, that's just ridiculous. isn't it?

All the important industry bosses and their organisations have been unanimous in telling us that all the problems in all their industries are nothing to do with them and are totally because of Brexit.

I can't think of a single reason why they would lie, after all, they not only know best but obviously have the best interests of their workers and their customers at heart, and only a conspiraloon would suggest otherwise.

The only reason Unite are pretending it's not all to do with Brexit is because, just like the BBC, they don't want to criticise the government.


----------



## UKSmartyPants (Aug 29, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> It's not the same body. The brexit campaign made a great deal of capital pointing out that the ever closer union of the EU was greatly different from the common market trading bloc which heath took the UK into.


It was the same bureaucrats operating from the same buildings, and working to the same plan.


----------



## UKSmartyPants (Aug 29, 2021)

bimble said:


> UKSmartyPants would you have been able to do your move to spain after brexit happened (with the new rules about how much money you need to have coming in every month etc)? Or did you have to eat your cake quickly sort of thing.


Nobody knew what any new rules would be until Jan this year, which was more than 5 years after the vote. So we just carried on as normal.  Since you have no crystal ball, you couldn't have made a judgement so the speculation is irrelevant.   I was the correct age  and income to move when i did. And thats all you can say.  No one including you or me could have speculated in 2016 what the rules were going to be 5 years later, and everyone including you had 5 years to move. f you sat there gnashing your teeth about what might be, then thats your inaction.  Carpe Diem.


----------



## krtek a houby (Aug 29, 2021)

UKSmartyPants said:


> EU........EEC.........Iron and Steel Federation...... Hair-splitting. It is de facto the same body in different clothes.   I really hate hair-splitters and grammar nazis, they are both  lefty tactics by people really  with nothing to contribute.  Its smacks of a desperate attempt to get into a thread with nothing to actually contribute.


 Lefty tactics?

Why did you come back in the thinnest of disguises?


----------



## krtek a houby (Aug 29, 2021)

UKSmartyPants said:


> Nobody knew what any new rules would be until Jan this year, which was more than 5 years after the vote. So we just carried on as normal.  Since you have no crystal ball, you couldn't have made a judgement so the speculation is irrelevant.   I was the correct age  and income to move when i did. And thats all you can say.  No one including you or me could have speculated in 2016 what the rules were going to be 5 years later, and everyone including you had 5 years to move. f you sat there gnashing your teeth about what might be, then thats your inaction.  Carpe Diem.



Jan this year was 4 and a half years after the vote . Not more than 5.

Your time keeping needs working on.


----------



## mojo pixy (Aug 29, 2021)

Supine said:


> And now my pub is shut because of staff shortages



I'm sure pub landlords / landladies used to take their job a little more seriously once upon a time. When I ran a pub I expected to cover staff shortages myself. Frequent 18-hour days. Alcoholics need booze! It's not a business, it's a social service.



ska invita said:


> Lack of care workers this winter sounds a total disaster resulting in deaths



I'm not blaming brexit there. I'm blaming rapacious care companies who won't pay a fair wage, successive governments not caring enough to intervene in the sector, and huge numbers of British people who want a job but "couldn't do that kind of work".


----------



## Badgers (Aug 29, 2021)

mojo pixy said:


> I'm not blaming brexit there. I'm blaming rapacious care companies who won't pay a fair wage, successive governments not caring enough to intervene in the sector, and huge numbers of British people who want a job but "couldn't do that kind of work".


Agreed. But a brexit based on lies and mishandled pandemic has caused this situation in the short term.


----------



## UKSmartyPants (Aug 29, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> Jan this year was 4 and a half years after the vote . Not more than 5.
> 
> Your time keeping needs working on.


another hair splitter. when you have an intelligent contribution to make, post it.


----------



## Badgers (Aug 29, 2021)

Good take (thread) this...


----------



## philosophical (Aug 29, 2021)

UKSmartyPants said:


> It has happened to mine, and millions of other peoples, satisfaction.  If you arent happy, tough, thats democracy.


A 'democracy' where you vote for something but it doesn't happen?
In what sense is that democracy?


----------



## UKSmartyPants (Aug 29, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Lack of care workers this winter sounds a total disaster resulting in deaths


lack of care workers, like lack of other workers such as crop picking and hospitality ,is because the industries  affected chose to exploit cheap foreign labour, and offer pittance wages the English wouldn't work for, but were ea fortune if you were Romanian or Somalian.  However, the laws of Supply and Demand work both ways. If these people are complaining of a shortage of workers they are lying, there's only a shortage of people willing to work for insultingly bad wages and conditions. These moaners might find if they start offering a liveable wage, they might attract some staff. The Transport industry has just clicked onto this fact. No sympathy. The days of getting fat from exploiting third world slave labour has gone.  

And while we are on the subject, the Labour Party was supposed to stand up for the rights and conditions of the working class, instead they stood by and did nothing while Blair flooded the country with the aforementioned cheap foreign slave labour, and Blair's successors also did nothing, up to and including the Marxist Corbyn. This represents the biggest betrayal of the English working class since the creation of the Labour Party. And the main reason labour will never win power, because they stopped representing the best interests of their core voters.   Under labour, millions of permanent contract jobs were turned in agency or zero hours jobs on far worse conditions, lower wages and no job security.

Im from Lincolnshire,  if you drove round Boston area ten years ago, all those people picking the crops in the fields were either illegal immigrants or east Europeans paid peanuts. and the Gangers were either Irish, or Poles. Occasionally you see Immigration vans turn up at a field, and the pickers would all scatter. You couldn't even get a job with the processing factories like Geest, unless you spoke fluent Polish.  Not that it mattered, because they would only advertise the jobs in Poland anyway.

And the Unions and Labour said nothing.


----------



## Badgers (Aug 29, 2021)

The Brexiter's guide to why it's definitely not Brexit's fault
					

LORRY queues and empty supermarket shelves are happening as predicted, but they’re definitely nothing to do with Brexit. Leave voter Norman Steele explains.




					www.thedailymash.co.uk


----------



## UKSmartyPants (Aug 29, 2021)

philosophical said:


> A 'democracy' where you vote for something but it doesn't happen?
> In what sense is that democracy?


but it did happen. Only in the minds of people  like you it didnt.......  are we still members of the Eu? ....dont think so...and that's we were asked to vote for.....


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 29, 2021)

UKSmartyPants 
‘Biggest betrayal of the working classes since the creation of the Labour Party’ - so in 1900 , when the Labour Party was created, what alternative political direction should the working classes have taken to avoid this betrayal?


----------



## Badgers (Aug 29, 2021)




----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 29, 2021)

UKSmartyPants said:


> It was the same bureaucrats operating from the same buildings, and working to the same plan.


No, it wasn't. Pity poor Britain, producing someone like you, and pity poor Spain, for having to put up with you


----------



## JuanTwoThree (Aug 29, 2021)

UKSmartyPants said:


> MY interests have now been covered by getting residentia, and moving to Spain lock stock and barrel.



I hope your commitment to your new home will extend to being able to spell residencia one day


----------



## two sheds (Aug 29, 2021)

Forum full of nit pickers


----------



## philosophical (Aug 29, 2021)

UKSmartyPants said:


> but it did happen. Only in the minds of people  like you it didnt.......  are we still members of the Eu? ....dont think so...and that's we were asked to vote for.....



You are wrong that it happened.
Where on the voting slip did it say Northern Ireland would be staying in the EU in a different way to the rest of the UK?


----------



## krtek a houby (Aug 29, 2021)

UKSmartyPants said:


> another hair splitter. when you have an intelligent contribution to make, post it.



It's important to highlight the gross inaccuracies of your claims, Mr Cake Eater.


----------



## krtek a houby (Aug 29, 2021)

UKSmartyPants said:


> lack of care workers, like lack of other workers such as crop picking and hospitality ,is because the industries  affected chose to exploit cheap foreign labour, and offer pittance wages the English wouldn't work for, but were ea fortune if you were Romanian or Somalian.  However, the laws of Supply and Demand work both ways. If these people are complaining of a shortage of workers they are lying, there's only a shortage of people willing to work for insultingly bad wages and conditions. These moaners might find if they start offering a liveable wage, they might attract some staff. The Transport industry has just clicked onto this fact. No sympathy. The days of getting fat from exploiting third world slave labour has gone.
> 
> And while we are on the subject, the Labour Party was supposed to stand up for the rights and conditions of the working class, instead they stood by and did nothing while Blair flooded the country with the aforementioned cheap foreign slave labour, and Blair's successors also did nothing, up to and including the Marxist Corbyn. This represents the biggest betrayal of the English working class since the creation of the Labour Party. And the main reason labour will never win power, because they stopped representing the best interests of their core voters.   Under labour, millions of permanent contract jobs were turned in agency or zero hours jobs on far worse conditions, lower wages and no job security.
> 
> ...



And what are you doing in Spain to improve things and protect the UK from Marxists, foreigners and the Unions?

Are you still putting your country first, Marty?


----------



## Artaxerxes (Aug 29, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Forum full of nit pickers



Nitpicker is usually one word, or hyphenated if your going with two.


----------



## two sheds (Aug 29, 2021)

It it were being used an adjective, as in nit-picking forum twats, I'd agree with you. Not used as a noun though, that would be perverse.


----------



## Dogsauce (Aug 29, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Labour Party Conference coming up , wonder if there will be a motion or a fringe meeting on rejoining the EU?


If they’ve any sense it’ll be pitched as rejoining EEA/single market first, as people (genuinely) didn’t vote to leave those according to polling at the time. Boil the frog slowly.


----------



## UKSmartyPants (Aug 30, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> No, it wasn't. Pity poor Britain, producing someone like you, and pity poor Spain, for having to put up with you


and god help the UK, stuck with hostile traitors like you still in its midst.  In 1940 the would have thrown people like you i nan Internment Camp.

And the other thing we have discovered is we have a few here, like you, incapable of civilised debate, who resort to insult and ad hominem. This is not unusual for Marxists like you, since the inadequate IQ level you possess prevents you from deep analysis of a situation.  Personally, i dont resort to insult unless you insult me first, and once you cross that line I can mark you down as 'intellectual midget', (or worse,  'looney lefty'), and not bother with you again. It makes life so much easier.


----------



## UKSmartyPants (Aug 30, 2021)

JuanTwoThree said:


> I hope your commitment to your new home will extend to being able to spell residencia one day


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Aug 30, 2021)




----------



## eatmorecheese (Aug 30, 2021)

UKSmartyPants said:


> and god help the UK, stuck with hostile traitors like you still in its midst.  In 1940 the would have thrown people like you i nan Internment Camp.
> 
> And the other thing we have discovered is we have a few here, like you, incapable of civilised debate, who resort to insult and ad hominem. This is not unusual for Marxists like you, since the inadequate IQ level you possess prevents you from deep analysis of a situation.  Personally, i dont resort to insult unless you insult me first, and once you cross that line I can mark you down as 'intellectual midget', (or worse,  'looney lefty'), and not bother with you again. It makes life so much easier.


Boring tosser. As far as my IQ can reach.


----------



## krtek a houby (Aug 30, 2021)

UKSmartyPants said:


> and god help the UK, stuck with hostile traitors like you still in its midst.  In 1940 the would have thrown people like you i nan Internment Camp.
> 
> And the other thing we have discovered is we have a few here, like you, incapable of civilised debate, who resort to insult and ad hominem. This is not unusual for Marxists like you, since the inadequate IQ level you possess prevents you from deep analysis of a situation.  Personally, i dont resort to insult unless you insult me first, and once you cross that line I can mark you down as 'intellectual midget', (or worse,  'looney lefty'), and not bother with you again. It makes life so much easier.



Your whole shtick is insults, dodgy far right talking points and baiting here.

Your "first" post mentioned _Covid Fear Porn Masturbation Society nutters. _

Do one.


----------



## Supine (Aug 30, 2021)

UKSmartyPants said:


> and god help the UK, stuck with *hostile* *traitors* like you still in its midst.  In 1940 the would have thrown people like you i nan Internment Camp.
> 
> And the other thing we have discovered is we have a few here, like you, *incapable of civilised debate*, who resort to insult and ad hominem. This is not unusual for *Marxists like you*, since the *inadequate IQ level you possess* prevents you from deep analysis of a situation.  Personally, *i dont resort to insult* unless you insult me first, and once you cross that line I can mark you down as '*intellectual midget*', (or worse,  '*looney* lefty'), and not bother with you again. It makes life so much easier.



Joker


----------



## existentialist (Aug 30, 2021)

UKSmartyPants said:


> View attachment 285886


Irony.


----------



## existentialist (Aug 30, 2021)

UKSmartyPants said:


> and god help the UK, stuck with hostile traitors like you still in its midst.  In 1940 the would have thrown people like you i nan Internment Camp.
> 
> And the other thing we have discovered is we have a few here, like you, incapable of civilised debate, who resort to insult and ad hominem. This is not unusual for Marxists like you, since the inadequate IQ level you possess prevents you from deep analysis of a situation.  Personally, i dont resort to insult unless you insult me first, and once you cross that line I can mark you down as 'intellectual midget', (or worse,  'looney lefty'), and not bother with you again. It makes life so much easier.


Oh look, a new poster who seems to believe it's got a deep insight into the psyches of Urban's posters. Well, who'd have thought it?


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 30, 2021)

UKSmartyPants said:


> and god help the UK, stuck with hostile traitors like you still in its midst.  In 1940 the would have thrown people like you i nan Internment Camp.
> 
> And the other thing we have discovered is we have a few here, like you, incapable of civilised debate, who resort to insult and ad hominem. This is not unusual for Marxists like you, since the inadequate IQ level you possess prevents you from deep analysis of a situation.  Personally, i dont resort to insult unless you insult me first, and once you cross that line I can mark you down as 'intellectual midget', (or worse,  'looney lefty'), and not bother with you again. It makes life so much easier.


You'd be very pushed to find many Marxists on here tbh.


----------



## JuanTwoThree (Aug 30, 2021)

existentialist said:


> Irony.



Only an utter twat would use that Grammar Nazi meme without realising it's supposed to be funny. Unless...?

Me, I think it's highly _pretencioso _to drop Spanish or any other language into English. Even more so if you're not completely _eau fais_ with what the word is in that language.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 30, 2021)

UKSmartyPants said:


> and god help the UK, stuck with hostile traitors like you still in its midst.  In 1940 the would have thrown people like you i nan Internment Camp.
> 
> And the other thing we have discovered is we have a few here, like you, incapable of civilised debate, who resort to insult and ad hominem. This is not unusual for Marxists like you, since the inadequate IQ level you possess prevents you from deep analysis of a situation.  Personally, i dont resort to insult unless you insult me first, and once you cross that line I can mark you down as 'intellectual midget', (or worse,  'looney lefty'), and not bother with you again. It makes life so much easier.


Oh I'm capable of civilised debate. But you're not.


----------



## bimble (Aug 30, 2021)

is this the Hitler lettuce guy again?


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 30, 2021)

bimble said:


> is this the Hitler lettuce guy again?


A lesser version, some sort of manky franco


----------



## krtek a houby (Aug 30, 2021)

bimble said:


> is this the Hitler lettuce guy again?



It's marty1 again. He's got a new angry expat thing going on (with a few typos thrown in), but it's the same socialist baiting, Biden slating gig as before.


----------



## krtek a houby (Aug 30, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> A lesser version, some sort of manky franco



He can just allez, can't 'e?


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 30, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> He can just allez, can't 'e?


He blighted blighty now he's a pain in spain. If he is indeed in iberia


----------



## bimble (Aug 30, 2021)

I'm kind of curious, if you're in Spain UKSmartyPants , is it a bit awkward when you tell other immigrants there from the uk that you're a proud brexiteer?


----------



## Smangus (Aug 30, 2021)

Feeling At home in the land of Franco.


----------



## two sheds (Aug 30, 2021)

The commute to make his Amazon deliveries must be arduous


----------



## gosub (Aug 30, 2021)

In the chaos of Britain’s labour shortage, could workers forge better lives? | John Harris
					

Our dysfunctional labour market was reliant on a pool of exploitable workers, says the Guardian columnist John Harris




					www.theguardian.com
				




Broadly on the same page as this guy


----------



## brogdale (Aug 30, 2021)

UKSmartyPants said:


> View attachment 285886


Godwin's before breakfast; doesn't bode well for a long stay.


----------



## two sheds (Aug 30, 2021)

And it's not really grammar it's being picked up on, it's facts and righties don't like being corrected when they get facts wrong  they go all Hitler accusatory.


----------



## brogdale (Aug 30, 2021)

two sheds said:


> And it's not really grammar it's being picked up on, it's facts and righties don't like being corrected when they get facts wrong  they go all Hitler accusatory.


They h8 your crapto-Marxist "facts" like slugs react to salt.


----------



## Serene (Aug 30, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Nitpicker is usually one word, or hyphenated if your going with two.






The Pedants Revolution.


----------



## bimble (Aug 30, 2021)

gosub said:


> In the chaos of Britain’s labour shortage, could workers forge better lives? | John Harris
> 
> 
> Our dysfunctional labour market was reliant on a pool of exploitable workers, says the Guardian columnist John Harris
> ...


it doesn't say very much does it, apart from that wages are going up (good) but that this won't solve the food production problem because there's just not enough UK people who live near to the jobs and are at all interested in doing them (bad). Basically another blame the supermarkets piece far as i can see.


----------



## glitch hiker (Aug 30, 2021)

bimble said:


> it doesn't say very much does it, apart from that wages are going up (good) but that this won't solve the food production problem because there's just not enough UK people who live near to the jobs and are at all interested in doing them (bad). Basically another blame the supermarkets piece far as i can see.


Wage rises are obviously going to be offset by increased consumer prices


----------



## Maggot (Aug 30, 2021)

UKSmartyPants said:


> Nobody knew what any new rules would be until Jan this year, which was more than 5 years after the vote. So we just carried on as normal.  Since you have no crystal ball, you couldn't have made a judgement so the speculation is irrelevant.   I was the correct age  and income to move when i did. And thats all you can say.  No one including you or me could have speculated in 2016 what the rules were going to be 5 years later, and everyone including you had 5 years to move. f you sat there gnashing your teeth about what might be, then thats your inaction.  Carpe Diem.


So you knew exactly what you were voting for?


----------



## bimble (Aug 30, 2021)

glitch hiker said:


> Wage rises are obviously going to be offset by increased consumer prices


You're supposed to just stop thinking about it by blaming the supermarkets: If the supermarkets just stopped being greedy bastards then everyone's wages could go up but food stay cheap, that's it thats the thought process, nothing further required.


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 30, 2021)

two sheds said:


> The commute to make his Amazon deliveries must be arduous


In theory, he could always work for Amazon Spain but not sure his language skills would be up for it


----------



## bimble (Aug 30, 2021)

UKSmartyPants said:


> I was the correct age  and income to move when i did. And thats all you can say.  No one including you or me could have speculated in 2016 what the rules were going to be 5 years later, and everyone including you had 5 years to move. f you sat there gnashing your teeth about what might be, then thats your inaction.  Carpe Diem.


You didn't answer my question. It was simple, it was could you move there now or not.
Me personally I'm lucky by chance i can still have my cake and eat it, like all the people in those 27 other countries can.
Anti immigration immigrants are the best kind though.


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 30, 2021)

glitch hiker said:


> Wage rises are obviously going to be offset by increased consumer prices


Bloody trade unions coming over here and putting up consumer prices sort of thing?


----------



## two sheds (Aug 30, 2021)

Do we have tables of percentages of wage costs versus rents/interest/managerial salary/utility/profit etc. costs in different industries?


----------



## extra dry (Aug 30, 2021)

more insight, it is looking as if things are going to get really tough.


----------



## gosub (Aug 30, 2021)

bimble said:


> it doesn't say very much does it, apart from that wages are going up (good) but that this won't solve the food production problem because there's just not enough UK people who live near to the jobs and are at all interested in doing them (bad). Basically another blame the supermarkets piece far as i can see.


No. I don't read it like that at all.  Accepts its a mix of a variety of factors, quite the perfect storm. But, rather than looking for who to blame, carpe diem.


----------



## Serene (Aug 30, 2021)

I am not good on knowing the prices of food, but I have been noticing prices that look quite a bit more expensive than I think they were in pre-Brexit.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Aug 30, 2021)

Serene said:


> The Pedants Revolution.





Revolt.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Aug 30, 2021)

Serene said:


> I am not good on knowing the prices of food, but I have been noticing prices that look quite a bit more expensive than I think they were in pre-Brexit.




Food costs today more than five years ago


----------



## two sheds (Aug 30, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Revolt.


and Pedants'


----------



## Badgers (Aug 30, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Food costs today more than five years ago


What about drink prices?


----------



## Serene (Aug 30, 2021)

15th-century representation of the cleric  John Ball encouraging the rebels;  Wat Tyler is shown in red, front left.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Aug 30, 2021)

Badgers said:


> What about drink prices?




Booze in pubs has gone up a lot, Godalming today = Covent Garden rates 5 years ago.

'cept Spoons.


----------



## two sheds (Aug 30, 2021)

1/10 a pint it was when I had my first one


----------



## Serene (Aug 30, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Nitpicker is usually one word, or hyphenated if your going with two.


You are #


----------



## Artaxerxes (Aug 30, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Food costs today more than five years ago



Have wages increased in line with the rises?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Aug 30, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Have wages increased in line with the rises?




Waitrose lorry drivers have, guy who works for me has too. Dunno about everyone else.


----------



## UKSmartyPants (Aug 30, 2021)

philosophical said:


> You are wrong that it happened.
> Where on the voting slip did it say Northern Ireland would be staying in the EU in a different way to the rest of the UK?



NI is part of UK, UK left. The fine details of cross border trade were not asked about. I repeat, thats what we employ politicians and civil servants. The arrangements are unsatisfactory, and require renegotiating. But NI is not part of the EU, its still part of the UK.

Both Scottish Independence and NI have been used by the EU to try and cause political instability within the UK. What did you expect when we tried to leave the Greater German Empire,  it spoilt the German plan for the domination of Europe.  Itll sort itself out eventually, even if we have to force their hand by suspending the protocol.  It wont be the north the IRA will then bomb, itll be the EU, Cork and Dublin. (Only the gullible Sir John Chastelaine believed the IRA got rid of its guns and Semtex)


----------



## ska invita (Aug 30, 2021)

bimble said:


> it doesn't say very much does it, apart from that wages are going up (good)


average UK wages are going down not up
-from this good Financial Times piece about the *global* delivery driver shortage -




__





						drivers warn of burnout as global trucker - Google Search
					





					www.google.com


----------



## existentialist (Aug 30, 2021)

"pedants


Serene said:


> The Pedants Revolution.



"pedants"


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 30, 2021)

UKSmartyPants said:


> NI is part of UK, UK left. The fine details of cross border trade were not asked about. I repeat, thats what we employ politicians and civil servants. The arrangements are unsatisfactory, and require renegotiating. But NI is not part of the EU, its still part of the UK.
> 
> Both Scottish Independence and NI have been used by the EU to try and cause political instability within the UK. What did you expect when we tried to leave the Greater German Empire,  it spoilt the German plan for the domination of Europe.  Itll sort itself out eventually, even if we have to force their hand by suspending the protocol.  It wont be the north the IRA will then bomb, itll be the EU, Cork and Dublin. (Only the gullible Sir John Chastelaine believed the IRA got rid of its guns and Semtex)


What right have you to award chastelaine a knighthood?


----------



## existentialist (Aug 30, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> In theory, he could always work for Amazon Spain but not sure his language skills would be up for it


TBF, that could apply as much to his Amazon UK employment...


----------



## Serene (Aug 30, 2021)

existentialist said:


> "pedants
> 
> "pedants"


Plural noun - Pedants.


----------



## existentialist (Aug 30, 2021)

Serene said:


> Plural noun - Pedants.


Possessive of same - "pedants''" 

HTH. HAND.


----------



## existentialist (Aug 30, 2021)

.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 30, 2021)

existentialist said:


> Possessive of same - "pedants''"
> 
> HTH. HAND.


It's wicked to mock the afflicted


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 30, 2021)

I must admit I had my doubts but is this is what the UK has descended to?


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Aug 30, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> You'd be very pushed to find many Marxists on here tbh.








JuanTwoThree said:


> Me, I think it's highly _pretencioso _to drop Spanish or any other language into English. Even more so if you're not completely _eau fais_ with what the word is in that language.



mange tout, rodney


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 30, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> I must admit I had my doubts but is this is what the UK has descended to?



I've had no trouble getting any of those things.


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 30, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> I've had no trouble getting any of those things.


Very rarely see Feta and Haloumi here


----------



## Maggot (Aug 30, 2021)

Serene said:


> 15th-century representation of the cleric  John Ball encouraging the rebels;  Wat Tyler is shown in red, front left.


*Which *Tyler.


----------



## klang (Aug 30, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> I've had no trouble getting any of those things.


hope your risotto turned out nice and creamy


----------



## Serene (Aug 30, 2021)

Maggot said:


> *Which *Tyler.


Not much is known of Wat Tyler's early life. There are varying sources of his birth. One claims that he was born on January 4, 1341, while another source claims he was born around 1320. Most historians agree that he was born around 1341 and didnt like video games. He was fascinated by John Ball, his group having broken the radical priest out of jail. He was probably born in Kent or Essex. “Wat” may have been his given name (derived from the Old English name _Watt)_, or a diminutive form of the name _Walter_; his original surname was unknown, possibly he was called Daffyd..[1] It is thought that the name "Tyler" came from his occupation as a roof tiler. Prior to the Peasants' Revolt, it is probable that he lived in Kent or Essex; he has variously been represented as coming from Dartford and Maidstone in Kent, from Deptford, which was in Kent at the time allegedly, and from Colchester in Essex


----------



## Raheem (Aug 30, 2021)

klang said:


> hope your risotto turned out nice and creamy


Unless the shop had no cream.


----------



## Badgers (Aug 30, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> I've had no trouble getting any of those things.


Gotta say that stocks are 'irregular' here. 

Last week the big Sainsbury's was out of pasta and the shelves were filled with dried rice and rice pouches. Today I popped to Asda and they had full stocks of pasta. 

Juice and bottled water has been low or empty for weeks now. Depends how close to their delivery you rock up. 

Cheeses and cured meats have been exactly the same.


----------



## Elpenor (Aug 30, 2021)

In the interests of transparency, the following have been substituted for me for my order coming tonight. In reality the only annoyance is the scourers, I’m still getting sweetcorn and apricots, just in different quantities. The Brazilian spice mix sounds nice. Oh and a massive   at the bottled water purchaser. 

I also took paracetamol out of the basket as they didn’t have any. I have about 100 at home already so didn’t really need them. My biggest challenge is spending £40 to get the delivery.




Product​Quantity​Sainsbury's Naturally Sweet Sweetcorn In Water 3x325g (3x260g*)_, substituted with_​1​- Sainsbury's Naturally Sweet Sweetcorn in Water 325g (260g*)​3 (£1.80)​Sainsbury's Sponge Scourer x6_, substituted with_​1​- Spontex Easy Sponge Scourers x2​1 (£1.40)​Sainsbury's Dried Apricots 500g_, substituted with_​1​- Sainsbury's Apricots 200g​3 (£3.30)​Sainsbury's Fajita Spice Mix 30g_, substituted with_​1​- Capsicana Brazilian Smoked Paprika & Spices Seasoning Mix 28g​1 (£1.10)​


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 30, 2021)

Serene said:


> Not much is known of Wat Tyler's early life. There are varying sources of his birth. One claims that he was born on January 4, 1341, while another source claims he was born around 1320. Most historians agree that he was born around 1341 and didnt like video games. He was fascinated by John Ball, his group having broken the radical priest out of jail. He was probably born in Kent or Essex. “Wat” may have been his given name (derived from the Old English name _Watt)_, or a diminutive form of the name _Walter_; his original surname was unknown, possibly he was called Daffyd..[1] It is thought that the name "Tyler" came from his occupation as a roof tiler. Prior to the Peasants' Revolt, it is probable that he lived in Kent or Essex; he has variously been represented as coming from Dartford and Maidstone in Kent, from Deptford, which was in Kent at the time allegedly, and from Colchester in Essex


Did you write the Wikipedia entry  or should you sue for copyright as its identical ?


----------



## Serene (Aug 30, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Did you write the Wikipedia entry  or should you sue for copyright as its identical ?


Identical to what?


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 30, 2021)

Serene said:


> Identical to what?


the Wikipedia entry on Wat Tyler


----------



## Serene (Aug 30, 2021)

It isnt identical.


----------



## Serene (Aug 30, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> the Wikipedia entry on Wat Tyler


It isnt identical.
Maggots post was possibly a play on words, a clever joke, on the word " what " and the description of Wat Tyler isnt identical.


----------



## krtek a houby (Aug 30, 2021)

UKSmartyPants said:


> NI is part of UK, UK left. The fine details of cross border trade were not asked about. I repeat, thats what we employ politicians and civil servants. The arrangements are unsatisfactory, and require renegotiating. But NI is not part of the EU, its still part of the UK.
> 
> Both Scottish Independence and NI have been used by the EU to try and cause political instability within the UK. What did you expect when we tried to leave the Greater German Empire,  it spoilt the German plan for the domination of Europe.  Itll sort itself out eventually, even if we have to force their hand by suspending the protocol.  It wont be the north the IRA will then bomb, itll be the EU, Cork and Dublin. (Only the gullible Sir John Chastelaine believed the IRA got rid of its guns and Semtex)



Tiocfaidh ar la, you silly unionist plum.

The occupied 6 counties will be free and there's nothing you can do about it.


----------



## brogdale (Aug 30, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Do we have tables of percentages of wage costs versus rents/interest/managerial salary/utility/profit etc. costs in different industries?


My guess is that, whatever regressive, mean-spirited, neoliberal rip-off is shown, the UK's will be #worldbeating


----------



## brogdale (Aug 30, 2021)

Serene said:


> Not much is known of Wat Tyler's early life. There are varying sources of his birth. One claims that he was born on January 4, 1341, while another source claims he was born around 1320. Most historians agree that he was born around 1341 and didnt like video games. He was fascinated by John Ball, his group having broken the radical priest out of jail. He was probably born in Kent or Essex. “Wat” may have been his given name (derived from the Old English name _Watt)_, or a diminutive form of the name _Walter_; his original surname was unknown, possibly he was called Daffyd..[1] It is thought that the name "Tyler" came from his occupation as a roof tiler. Prior to the Peasants' Revolt, it is probable that he lived in Kent or Essex; he has variously been represented as coming from Dartford and Maidstone in Kent, from Deptford, which was in Kent at the time allegedly, and from Colchester in Essex


Nothing 'alleged' about Deptford being within the  boundary of the historic County of Kent. Some of the old County boundary posts even remain to trace the old administrative delineation, account here:



For anyone interested about the course of the old, historic boundary through SE London, I put some stickers on an old OS map a few years ago (rainy day  ):


----------



## philosophical (Aug 30, 2021)

UKSmartyPants said:


> NI is part of UK, UK left. The fine details of cross border trade were not asked about. I repeat, thats what we employ politicians and civil servants. The arrangements are unsatisfactory, and require renegotiating. But NI is not part of the EU, its still part of the UK.
> 
> Both Scottish Independence and NI have been used by the EU to try and cause political instability within the UK. What did you expect when we tried to leave the Greater German Empire,  it spoilt the German plan for the domination of Europe.  Itll sort itself out eventually, even if we have to force their hand by suspending the protocol.  It wont be the north the IRA will then bomb, itll be the EU, Cork and Dublin. (Only the gullible Sir John Chastelaine believed the IRA got rid of its guns and Semtex)


Northern ireland is part of the EU in a different way to Wales, England and Scotland according to the protocol.
That was not on your ballot paper, so what you voted for hasn't happened. What you call 'democracy' hasn't prevailed.

Your second paragraph must be your verbatim report of something you overheard a total wanker nutcase saying.


----------



## Serene (Aug 30, 2021)

Brexit is a superb thing if you are into Fish. You can eat it at every meal. I dont know if the Restaurants will drop their prices in line. Fill your boots with Mackerel. All the people that died in the Cod wars were not in vain.


----------



## Badgers (Aug 30, 2021)

Brexit is a superb thing if you are rich.


----------



## brogdale (Aug 30, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Brexit is a superb thing if you are rich.


Yeah, but so was unBrexit.


----------



## Ming (Aug 30, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Brexit is a superb thing if you are rich.


----------



## Ming (Aug 30, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Brexit is a superb thing if you are rich.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Aug 30, 2021)

Superb stuff from Larry Elliot on the respective class dynamics behind the debate on ‘the Brexit food crisis’: 









						So what’s so wrong with labour shortages driving up low wages? | Larry Elliott
					

For those who are part of Britain’s casualised workforce Brexit isn’t flawed – quite the opposite




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Dogsauce (Aug 30, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Very rarely see Feta and Haloumi here


Lidl in Portugal have halloumi in at the moment, but I think it’s just part of their Greek themed thing they do every year for a few weeks. About €2.50. Places seem to have houmous now too, which we couldn’t find about 5 years ago. Plus loads of vegan stuff. Hipsters get everywhere.


----------



## Dogsauce (Aug 30, 2021)

Aldi seemed to have plenty of fresh fruit and veg today, but hardly any frozen veg (we usually get stuff like frozen broccoli for soup). Didn’t notice anything else in short supply, they can be quite sketchy with certain lines anyway, so nothing new not to be able to get something, if anything today was better than usual on this front.  The only thing out of the ordinary was that they were restricting purchase of dried pasta to four bags per customer.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Aug 31, 2021)

No frozen sweetcorn available when I started going through the Tesco order this evening. Plenty of tinned but no brand of frozen at all


----------



## extra dry (Aug 31, 2021)

Running out of beer and Fosters, stock up while you Can.


----------



## krtek a houby (Aug 31, 2021)

extra dry said:


> Running out of beer and Fosters, stock up while you Can.




Nobody drinks beer anyway


----------



## Artaxerxes (Aug 31, 2021)

I like how fosters is added as a separate category to beer


----------



## Badgers (Aug 31, 2021)

> New figures from the Publishers’ Association, seen by The Independent, suggest that as much as 64 per cent of revenue from books – some £2.2bn each year – is at risk if a system of so-called “international exhaustion” is adopted, with authors and illustrators potentially losing income totalling £506m annually and job losses running into the tens of thousands.











						Mantel and Boyd warn of book industry collapse in post-Brexit threat
					

Exclusive: Former poet laureate Carol Ann Duffy said prospect of new rules makes her ‘blood run cold’




					www.independent.co.uk


----------



## Badgers (Aug 31, 2021)

This is something that is worth saying over and over again. This issues may be a mix of Brexit, Covid and waves but the government have done nothing to mitigate this...


----------



## bimble (Aug 31, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Superb stuff from Larry Elliot on the respective class dynamics behind the debate on ‘the Brexit food crisis’:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


"For those who have nothing to fear from open borders, labour shortages are evidence Brexit is flawed. For those not so fortunate, it is doing what it was supposed to do."

So simplistic! If you are seeing wages go up in your particular sector, like if you're a lorry driver or interested in working in food processing or whatever,  then of course yes you'd be happy about those wages going up. But the idea that half the people in the country when looking at the wider effects of the labour shortage - the empty shelves & rotting veg & the dire warnings about pigs in blankets etc -  think brilliant yes this is exactly what i wanted to happen, that's got to be absolute bollocks.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 31, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> Nobody drinks beer anyway


Not any more, you need something harder in brexit Britain


----------



## Supine (Aug 31, 2021)

Starting to feel like a brexit diet is about to commence. I could do with losing a few pounds, cheers brexit.


----------



## brogdale (Aug 31, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> Nobody drinks beer anyway


Shit just got serious.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Aug 31, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> I like how fosters is added as a separate category to beer



We have no beer, so no one is using the urinals, ergo no Fosters.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 31, 2021)

Supine said:


> Starting to feel like a brexit diet is about to commence. I could do with losing a few pounds, cheers brexit.


with the brexit diet the pounds will never stop rolling off.


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 31, 2021)

Dogsauce said:


> Lidl in Portugal have halloumi in at the moment, but I think it’s just part of their Greek themed thing they do every year for a few weeks. About €2.50. Places seem to have houmous now too, which we couldn’t find about 5 years ago. Plus loads of vegan stuff. Hipsters get everywhere.


Intermarche have houmous as well but I occasionally make my own.


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 31, 2021)

Badgers said:


> This is something that is worth saying over and over again. This issues may be a mix of Brexit, Covid and waves but the government have done nothing to mitigate this...



Don't particularly like this Churchill project but the point about a government strategy is correct rather than simply leaving it up to the market to resolve.


----------



## JuanTwoThree (Aug 31, 2021)

This in Lidl is not a joke. 



It's a jar of chickpeas and a tiny packet of spices.  Lidl in Spain also has houmous ready-made


What Lidl doesn't have anymore in Spain is Cheddar, Not Irish either so perhaps nothing to do with Brexit


----------



## bimble (Aug 31, 2021)

This is fine, only middle class tossers have school lunches. 








						Schools told to prepare for food shortages
					

Wholesalers are warning schools of the need to 'stock up' as the HGV driver crisis intensifies




					www.thegrocer.co.uk


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Aug 31, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Don't particularly like this Churchill project but the point about a government strategy is correct rather than simply leaving it up to the market to resolve.



As the Elliot piece suggests the Government seems to be of the view that employers will need to resolve the problem themselves: by paying higher wages. There 1M job vacancies and millions of people who need a well paying job.

Leaving aside those who once professed to be in favour of a high wage economy but have degenerated into a position which is essentially indivisible from that adopted by the captains of industry most people IRL don't seem exercised by 'food shortages' and recognise that the issue is entirely one of capitals making: which has been too slow to see the cheap labour tap being turned off generally and their vapid approach exposed by the pandemic.

What the Government should be doing is recreating Wages Boards made up of workers, bosses and Government and funding regional labour planning task forces.  That is what Labour should now be campaigning on.


----------



## bimble (Aug 31, 2021)

Just raise wages and the whole problem goes away doesn't seem to me to make sense.
Even if the wages for say vegetable picking were £50 an hour i don't see how you'd get enough UK based people who were able to move away from home to do the work for a few weeks then move back again, unless maybe the whole benefits system had a revolution too. Maybe that will happen next.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Aug 31, 2021)

bimble said:


> Just raise wages and the whole problem goes away doesn't seem to me to make sense.
> Even if the wages for say vegetable picking were £50 an hour i don't see how you'd get enough UK based people who were able to move away from home to do the work for a few weeks then move back again, unless maybe the whole benefits system had a revolution too. Maybe that will happen next.



Here are 5 simple steps that could be taken and which anyone with even a casual relationship with economic justice should support:

1. A new Agriculture Wages and Labour Board which is made up equally of worker representatives, bosses and Government. This would set minimum wage levels, terms and conditions, pensions etc. 
2. Underpinning this would be local tripartite planning groups who would set rates for the particular conditions for the local economy.
3. Both bodies would draw up plans for seasonal work and be tasked with planning sustainable labour levels throughout the year. This should include new apprenticeships with guaranteed jobs at union rates at the end of it. 
4. These bodies would be set an annual target for growth of output each year
5. A Skills strategy would identify foreseeable shortages over the long and medium term and plan to fix this

If there is still a residual need for more labour this should be addressed by planned inward migration with workers covered by the same terms as above, invited to join the union on day one and supported to find housing etc.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 31, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Here are 5 simple steps that could be taken and which anyone with even a casual relationship with economic justice should support:
> 
> 1. A new Agriculture Wages and Labour Board which is made up equally of worker representatives, bosses and Government. This would set minimum wage levels, terms and conditions, pensions etc.
> 2. Underpinning this would be local tripartite planning groups who would set rates for the particular conditions for the local economy.
> ...


i'll stop you at 1. made up equally of worker representatives, bosses and government? that's not really equal is it.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Aug 31, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> i'll stop you at 1. made up equally of worker representatives, bosses and government? that's not really equal is it.



No, and we could easily critique the corporatist model in many other ways too particularly in terms of its inherent limitations on collective bargaining scope and the limits on genuine workers control, but even adopting 1. would be a significant step forward from the model adopted in the sector for years. It's long been a sector reliant on exploited migrant/youth labour precisely because agriculture has always presented itself in exceptionalist terms and because it claims it can regulate itself.


----------



## JuanTwoThree (Aug 31, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> worker representatives, bosses and government


----------



## bimble (Aug 31, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> 3.* Both bodies would draw up plans for seasonal work and be tasked with planning sustainable labour levels throughout the year. This should include new apprenticeships with guaranteed jobs at union rates at the end of it.*



This sounds nice but i still don't see how it could lead to a positive answer to my question, which is would the issue be resolved even if seasonal vegetable picking was paid at £50 an hour . 


'“Of the 80,000-seasonal workforce in horticulture alone, 98% are migrants from elsewhere in the EU..”
(from here , a few years old, chapter 6). 


			https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld201617/ldselect/ldeucom/169/169.pdf
		


i just think we need to be a bit more honest and admit that big bits of uk food production are just going to stop existing now.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Aug 31, 2021)

bimble said:


> This sounds nice but i still don't see how it could lead to a positive answer to my question, which is would the issue be resolved even if seasonal vegetable picking was paid at £50 an hour .


Many apologies, I had misunderstood your question as a serious one.

To answer your actual question. £50x40x52 = a salary of £100,000 per year 

I suspect this would fix the labour supply issue given average earnings are a quarter of that


----------



## bimble (Aug 31, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Many apologies, I had misunderstood your question as a serious one.
> 
> To answer your actual question. £50x40x52 = a salary of £100,000 per year
> 
> I suspect this would fix the labour supply issue given average earnings are a quarter of that


No. It’s one months work maybe 6 weeks.
That’s the whole problem.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Aug 31, 2021)

bimble said:


> No. It’s one months work maybe 6 weeks.
> That’s the whole problem.



You could work part time and still earn double the average wage. Go and have a lie down.


----------



## bimble (Aug 31, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> You could work part time and still earn double the average wage. Go and have a lie down.


You’re not getting it. Or you really do think that, if it was just paid well enough, the UK would somehow be able to provide its own seasonal workers to sustain current levels of domestic food production.


----------



## rubbershoes (Aug 31, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Here are 5 simple steps that could be taken and which anyone with even a casual relationship with economic justice should support:
> 
> 1. A new Agriculture Wages and Labour Board which is made up equally of worker representatives, bosses and Government. This would set minimum wage levels, terms and conditions, pensions etc.
> 2. Underpinning this would be local tripartite planning groups who would set rates for the particular conditions for the local economy.
> ...



 What's the chances of any of those happening?


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Aug 31, 2021)

bimble said:


> You’re not getting it. Or you really do think that, if it was just paid well enough, the UK would somehow be able to provide its own seasonal workers to sustain current levels of domestic food production.



I refer you to my previous answer Bimble….the answer is that we could if we introduced proper planning and T&C’s


----------



## ska invita (Aug 31, 2021)

No idea what this is about beyond what it says here - i do know margins in publishing have been squeezed to an inch of their lives a long tiem ago

Changes to current copyright laws could put up to 64% of publisher book revenue at risk, according to research by the Publishers Association (PA).

The PA says a post-Brexit move towards an international exhaustion regime being consulted on by the Intellectual Property Office (IPO) would “spell disaster” for the UK industry with a projected loss of up to £2.2bn per year. It warns many small and medium sized businesses would be unlikely to survive and widespread job losses would be “inevitable”.

Authors and illustrators would also be hit, with up to £506m per year of their incomes at risk, making those professions unattainable for many, the PA says. There would also be a knock on effect for other creative industries, while big retail chains could reap the benefits, to the disadvantage of UK high street stores.

The warning comes as an IPO consultation on a change to the UK intellectual property framework, with international exhaustion as one of the proposed outcomes, concludes today.

Last week, organisations behind the Save Our Books campaign, including the PA, gave a last push for people to have their say on the changes, which would allow cheaper imported books to potentially flood the UK market. The consultation closes today (31st August) at 11.45 p.m.

Stephen Lotinga, chief executive of the Publishers Association, said: “These figures are deeply alarming. If the government decides to change our copyright laws, then it could be devastating for the UK’s book industry.

“This country is fortunate to have many of the world’s greatest literary talents producing books that entertain and inform readers across the globe. These measures would inevitably mean fewer books, produced by fewer authors, for fewer readers. We are urging the government to make the right choice and Save Our Books.”

The research came via a PA survey of members carried out in July, which included responses from from nine of the UK's top 10 consumer publishers. A mix of trade, academic and education publishers took part, equating to around 60% of the UK book market.

Booker winner Hilary Mantel has also thrown her weight behind the campaign, saying: “Along with my fellow authors, I am deeply concerned by the threat of a weakening of our present copyright and intellectual property regime. Most writers live and earn precariously, even with the protections now in place. During the last year or so, many have found themselves embattled, as pandemic restrictions have stripped away their ancillary sources of income. Their original creative work, however humbly rewarded, underlies a major industry and feeds our cultural life as a nation. This is not the time to strip away protection to their livelihood.

“Adoption of a regime of international exhaustion is likely to trigger a chain of unintended consequences. The loss of revenue will make publishers more risk-averse and close down access for new work. That will cramp the innovation that feeds our film and TV industries. It will hurt retailing and further concentrate profit for a few online players. The selling and making of books and the protection of the rights that underlie the trade is a delicate and complex business, but it is a very precious one, important for our standing as a nation.

“I would urge those involved in the consultation to move with great caution and listen to the advice of those who care not just about their own future but about the future of all our writers and readers.”


----------



## bimble (Aug 31, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I refer you to my previous answer Bimble….the answer is that we could if we introduced proper planning and T&C’s


i think you're operating on some cosmic level of optimism tbh.


----------



## andysays (Aug 31, 2021)

bimble said:


> No. It’s one months work maybe 6 weeks.
> That’s the whole problem.


Where are you getting this figure of one month/six weeks from? (apologies if the source has been quoted and I've missed it)


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 31, 2021)

andysays said:


> Where are you getting this figure of one month/six weeks from? (apologies if the source has been quoted and I've missed it)


presumably the season for vegetable picking


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 31, 2021)

JuanTwoThree said:


> This in Lidl is not a joke.
> 
> View attachment 286054
> 
> ...


No tahini paste?


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Aug 31, 2021)

rubbershoes said:


> What's the chances of any of those happening?



Higher than rejoining the EU and tempting cheap labour back during a pandemic. More ethical, sustainable and fair too


----------



## two sheds (Aug 31, 2021)

There always used to be a pool of people travelling round who'd do picking. Presumably pickers coming in from elsewhere in the EU priced them out?


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Aug 31, 2021)

bimble said:


> i think you're operating on some cosmic level of optimism tbh.


Says one of the leading ‘let’s rejoin the EU’ space cadets. To be fair that’s more delusional than optimistic I suppose


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 31, 2021)

Incredible that we have adults on here who think that seasonal vegetables are harvested only in a month to six week period in the U.K.


----------



## bimble (Aug 31, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Says one of the leading ‘let’s rejoin the EU’ space cadets. To be fair that’s more delusional than optimistic I suppose


i have never once said that though ? i think you're mixing me up with somebody else.


----------



## Supine (Aug 31, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Incredible that we have adults on here who think that seasonal vegetables are harvested only in a month to six week period in the U.K.



It is a seasonal job - which you must acknowledge adds some recruitment challenges. Or do you have an answer to recruitment you could share with our farmers (over and above saying pay more).


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Aug 31, 2021)

bimble said:


> i have never once said that though ? i think you're mixing me up with somebody else.



So you don’t want to rejoin the EU and you think social democracy is ‘cosmic optimism’. What exactly are you proposing then?


----------



## bimble (Aug 31, 2021)

andysays said:


> Where are you getting this figure of one month/six weeks from? (apologies if the source has been quoted and I've missed it)


It depends on the fruit / vegetable, some like strawberries (grown in tunnels etc) have longer seasons, many are shorter. 

I just had a look for jobs, this seems typical. 
you need a car as well


----------



## bimble (Aug 31, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> So you don’t want to rejoin the EU and you think social democracy is ‘cosmic optimism’. What exactly are you proposing then?


I'm sorry i didn't realise this was a thread for Solutions-people only.
For a little while now i've been thinking that an unintended and maybe counter-intuitive consequence of Brexit will be a drastic reduction in the amount of food that this country produces, and an increase in our dependence on imported food, thats all. I don't have a solution for it.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Aug 31, 2021)

bimble said:


> I'm sorry i didn't realise this was a thread for Solutions-people only.



Its not just that you don’t do solutions, it’s that you dismiss out of hand any that are put forward.

That’s up to you, but as a set of politics it’s utterly disabling. A bit like continuity remain: no ideas, solutions, demands or attempts to collectivise and organise: just a lot of air. They come over as a lot like the middle aged whiners they rail against.


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 31, 2021)

Supine said:


> It is a seasonal job - which you must acknowledge adds some recruitment challenges. Or do you have an answer to recruitment you could share with our farmers (over and above saying pay more).


Ah not a month to six weeks one then? 

'our' farmers lol . Up the NFU.


----------



## Supine (Aug 31, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Ah not a month to six weeks one then?
> 
> 'our' farmers lol . Up the NFU.



I don’t know who said it was. Just pointing out regardless of time seasonal employment is not easy. Whereas you seem to think it is just a pay rise that’s required.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Aug 31, 2021)

Supine said:


> I don’t know who said it was.


It was Bimble


----------



## bimble (Aug 31, 2021)

On really big farms with lots of crops ripe at different times i'm sure there's longer periods of work available. Plenty of places just want you for a couple of weeks or a month though, and i don't think any harvesting jobs are full time, apart from maybe mushrooms (?)


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 31, 2021)

Supine said:


> I don’t know who said it was. Just pointing out regardless of time seasonal employment is not easy. Whereas you seem to think it is just a pay rise that’s required.


Well, 'seem to think ' in your head perhaps. I'm sure seasonal recruitment has its challenges but surely they are not impassable?


----------



## Yossarian (Aug 31, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Here are 5 simple steps that could be taken and which anyone with even a casual relationship with economic justice should support:
> 
> 1. A new Agriculture Wages and Labour Board which is made up equally of worker representatives, bosses and Government. This would set minimum wage levels, terms and conditions, pensions etc.
> 2. Underpinning this would be local tripartite planning groups who would set rates for the particular conditions for the local economy.
> ...



Sounds good to me - of course, if there had been a government in place over the last 40 years willing to regulate the labour market this heavily, the conditions that led to Brexit might not have arisen.


----------



## bimble (Aug 31, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Its not just that you don’t do solutions, it’s that you dismiss out of hand any that are put forward.
> 
> That’s up to you, but as a set of politics it’s utterly disabling. A bit like continuity remain: no ideas, solutions, demands or attempts to collectivise and organise: just a lot of air. They come over as a lot like the middle aged whiners they rail against.


You're right, i'm even depressing my own self with this thing about brexit = much less locally grown food & much more imported food. Just can't think of a conceivable way round it tbh.


----------



## andysays (Aug 31, 2021)

bimble said:


> It depends on the fruit / vegetable, some like strawberries (grown in tunnels etc) have longer seasons, many are shorter.
> 
> I just had a look for jobs, this seems typical.
> you need a car as well
> View attachment 286096


OK, so that appears to be based on hiring people to pick just one crop, possibly because that farm only produces one crop, which is increasingly common.

The actual fruit and vegetable harvesting period in Britain is much, much longer. I have stuff ready to harvest on my allotment for at least six months of the year, and it's quite possible for commercial market gardeners growing some produce under cover to be able to have fresh vegetables ready to harvest 12 months of the year.

You seem to have swallowed the idea that vegetable production inevitably requires an army of cheap short term workers from abroad, possibly because all you really know about the subject is what you read from employers who have an interest in continuing the current dysfunctional system.


----------



## Johnny Doe (Aug 31, 2021)

I popped into a local boozer yesteray, my alcohol-free beers were in plentiful supply, but the barmaid was fending off complaints that draft Moretti was off and not expected back on anytime soon 'due to driver shortages'....


----------



## bimble (Aug 31, 2021)

andysays said:


> You seem to have swallowed the idea that vegetable production inevitably requires an army of cheap short term workers from abroad, possibly because all you really know about the subject is what you read from employers who have an interest in continuing the current dysfunctional system.


That might be true. I hope you're right. I do know almost nothing about agriculture, though have just grown my first tomato.

It's just that, even if this country successfully created a well paid (domestic but mobile) seasonal workforce to do these jobs then the next question would be about people being given the choice (?) to buy that British-grown produce instead of the shelves being full instead of cheaper stuff from abroad, where food's still being picked & packed by bulgarian/romanian migrant workers.
How many people people would be able to choose that option idk.

Or we would need proper protectionist agricultural policies, so supermarkets couldn't just buy the cheaper things, which is a possible solution but looks like the opposite is happening.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 31, 2021)

bimble said:


> That might be true. I hope you're right. I do know almost nothing about agriculture, though have just grown my first tomato.
> 
> It's just that, even if this country successfully created a well paid (domestic but mobile) seasonal workforce to do these jobs then the next question would be about people being given the choice (?) to buy that British-grown produce instead of the shelves being full instead of cheaper stuff from abroad, where food's still being picked & packed by bulgarian/romanian migrant workers.
> How many people people would be able to choose that option idk.
> ...


you'll be lucky if you see british-grown gooseberries in the shops, i'm told the americans take pretty much all we can grow


----------



## andysays (Aug 31, 2021)

bimble said:


> That might be true. I hope you're right. I do know almost nothing about agriculture, though have just grown my first tomato.
> 
> It's just that, even if this country successfully created a well paid (domestic but mobile) seasonal workforce to do these jobs then the next question would be about people being given the choice (?) to buy that British-grown produce instead of the shelves being full instead of cheaper stuff from abroad, where food's still being picked & packed by bulgarian/romanian migrant workers.
> How many people people would be able to choose that option idk.
> Or we would need proper protectionist agricultural policies, which is a possible solution but looks like the opposite is happening.


This is possibly not the thread to discuss it in detail, but the shake up in the labour market which is the result of Brexit and Covid could also provide an opportunity for a shake up of fruit and vegetable production in Britain.

If government support was available, a lot more small to medium sized market gardens could be set up, which made a virtue out of growing a much wider range of produce, available over a much wider time period, providing employment over most if not all of the year, and with local distribution through Farmers' Markets and box schemes rather than the current system which is completely dominated by large supermarket chains.

There would potentially be significant social and environmental benefits as well.

This is unlikely to happen, partly because there won't be any government support and partly because so many people like you seem to accept the idea that the system literally can only work the way it has done in recent years.


----------



## bimble (Aug 31, 2021)

andysays said:


> .. people like you seem to accept the idea that the system literally can only work the way it has done in recent years.


Don’t blame me. I’d be all up for your idea. I buy veg boxes from a brilliant place just down the road, that grows all sorts of things. I’m quite rich though that’s why I can do it, It’s expensive. Without massive government help this is not remotely going to happen at scale as you say.


----------



## krtek a houby (Aug 31, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> you'll be lucky if you see british-grown gooseberries in the shops, i'm told the americans take pretty much all we can grow



Don't let them near the NHS, whatever happens


----------



## andysays (Aug 31, 2021)

bimble said:


> Don’t blame me. I’d be all up for your idea. I buy veg boxes from a brilliant place just down the road, that grows all sorts of things. I’m quite rich though that’s why I can do it, It’s expensive. Without massive government help this is not remotely going to happen at scale as you say.


It's not your consumer choices that concern me, it's your apparent unthinking acceptance of pro capitalist status quo arguments and your frequently vacuous contributions to debate, like the idea that vegetables can only be harvested during a six week period, supported by a recruitment advert for strawberry pickers.

Maybe I'm just unreasonably grumpy today, but I really can't be bothered to engage with this nonsense. Maybe another time...


----------



## bimble (Aug 31, 2021)

you are always grumpy but that’s ok. 
You are free to pretend that I said all vegetables in Britain are harvested in the same 6 week period if it helps.


----------



## bimble (Aug 31, 2021)

I’ve been banging on about it because if anyone was going to tell me that i’m wrong in my prediction (that there will, unless something extremely surprising happens, be much less British-produced food in post-brexit Britain) it would be a brexiteer on here, but so far nobody has.

I don’t want to be right about that & haven’t been doing it to wind people up. Will stop going on about it though. Time will tell.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Aug 31, 2021)

I noticed HEMA shut down in the UK, it’s billed as a change of strategy on the website but given its Dutch and cheap as fuck I have to assume brexit played a role in it alongside the whammy of covid.


----------



## andysays (Aug 31, 2021)

bimble said:


> you are always grumpy but that’s ok...


Maybe my internet persona needs a little work


----------



## Dogsauce (Aug 31, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> I noticed HEMA shut down in the UK, it’s billed as a change of strategy on the website but given its Dutch and cheap as fuck I have to assume brexit played a role in it alongside the whammy of covid.


That’s a fucker, they were great for kids clothes (mainly on the web in this country I think) and assorted tat. Don’t think they ever made it out of London though.


----------



## Dogsauce (Aug 31, 2021)

Anyway, one of the bigger challenges for agricultural work is the fact no fucker can afford to live in the countryside. All these arguments about fair wages and living wages are meaningless without rent control and a pin in the property bubble.


----------



## Johnny Doe (Sep 1, 2021)

Harry Smiles said:


> I popped into a local boozer yesteray, my alcohol-free beers were in plentiful supply, but the barmaid was fending off complaints that draft Moretti was off and not expected back on anytime soon 'due to driver shortages'....


Same in a different boozer after football training last night, no Morreti. My mates who owns quite a few pubs was with us says he's having the same issue, as there aren't drivers to deliver it. Moretti showing up as the first shortage because it's had a surge in popularity.


----------



## Nylock (Sep 1, 2021)

A lot of travelling folk (traditional and "new age") used to support themselves by travelling around the place going from one seasonal picking job to the next. Trouble is, successive govts since the 80s have legislated that way of life into practical non-existence.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Sep 1, 2021)

Nylock said:


> A lot of travelling folk (traditional and "new age") used to support themselves by travelling around the place going from one seasonal picking job to the next. Trouble is, successive govts since the 80s have legislated that way of life into practical non-existence.



Aye, travellers to.

Used to be an urban poor thing as well, families surging out of the cities to pick hops or something to make bit of extra cash.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Sep 1, 2021)




----------



## brogdale (Sep 1, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Aye, travellers to.
> 
> Used to be an urban poor thing as well, families surging out of the cities to pick hops or something to make bit of extra cash.


Speaking as someone who has picked, yes to both of the above points; fruit farmers have always relied on exploiting various reserve armies of un/under-employed labour. Certainly down in Kent, the migrations of urban poor (which pretty much explains why our school 'summer' holidays include all of August into the start of September) which started in the 19th with the possibility of travel, had largely stopped by the 1960s because of capital intensification/machine 'picking' of hops.

These people had always supplemented the reserve army of local, rural & small towns women ("housewives") who needed to enhance the meagre earnings of the men-folk with seasonal work, often including the kiddies.

My experience of seasonal work in the 1970s and 1980s showed that it was the women workers and students/older school-kids and some travellers that made up the bulk of the complaint workforce. I remember one afternoon, on strawberries, when our piece rate was unilaterally dropped mid shift.

After that period it became more apparent that the farmers were starting to put more and more caravans on their own farms and employing workers from further afield/overseas. The attraction to the unscrupulous farmers of £2 to £3 per hour wages justified on the 'costs of board/lodgings' etc. was eventually just too great and they employed fewer and fewer from their former local reserve armies.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Sep 1, 2021)

Harry Smiles said:


> Same in a different boozer after football training last night, no Morreti. My mates who owns quite a few pubs was with us says he's having the same issue, as there aren't drivers to deliver it. Moretti showing up as the first shortage because it's had a surge in popularity.



Your mate ‘who owns a few pubs’ should have told you the reason that there is no overpriced lager is because the workers who deliver it are engaged in industrial action. The workers are Unite members and work for GXO Logistics Drinks. They deliver about 40% of the beer to pubs and have rejected a pay offer of 1.4%.

Update: Good news for fans of pissy overpriced lager. The strikes have been suspended following an improved offer of 4%. Up the workers!! 









						GXO drayman strikes suspended as improved pay offer considered
					






					www.unitetheunion.org


----------



## Maggot (Sep 1, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> So you don’t want to rejoin the EU and you think social democracy is ‘cosmic optimism’. What exactly are you proposing then?


Why should Remainers have to provide solutions to problems we didn't create?


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Sep 1, 2021)

Maggot said:


> Why should Remainers have to provide solutions to problems we didn't create?



You don’t have to. You can just moan and grumble about the ‘good old days’ if you prefer. Smother yourselves in the warm blanket of nostalgia whilst resting after searching Twitter for photos of empty sandwich shelves


----------



## brogdale (Sep 1, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> You don’t have to. You can just moan and grumble about the ‘good old days’ if you prefer. Smother yourselves in the warm blanket of nostalgia whilst resting after searching Twitter for photos of empty sandwich shelves


Harking back to some mythical 'good old days' is hardly the exclusive preserve of those favouring UK membership of the supra state, is it now?


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Sep 1, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Harking back to some mythical 'good old days' is hardly the exclusive preserve of those favouring UK membership of the supra state, is it now?



No, not at all. But there is rich irony in their portrayal of brexiteers as ‘gammons’ living in the past given the class base and demographic of remain and it’s preoccupation with an imagined past it claims has been lost due to Brexit isn’t there?


----------



## Badgers (Sep 1, 2021)

Sunlit. Uplands.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 1, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> No, not at all. But there is rich irony in their portrayal of brexiteers as ‘gammons’ living in the past given the class base and demographic of remain and it’s preoccupation with an imagined past it claims has been lost due to Brexit isn’t there?


Appropriate though, as the notion that either outcome would materially improve conditions for the working class was always mythical.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 1, 2021)

Maggot said:


> Why should Remainers have to provide solutions to problems we didn't create?


Because you already have a solution to all the brexit ills


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 1, 2021)

Interesting bit on R4's more or less just now about pre-brexit shortages of hgv drivers - 50,000 in 2015 apparently. BBC Radio 4 - More or Less if you wait a few mins you should be able to download it


----------



## brogdale (Sep 1, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Interesting bit on R4's more or less just now about pre-brexit shortages of hgv drivers - 50,000 in 2015 apparently. BBC Radio 4 - More or Less if you wait a few mins you should be able to download it


Can it really be true that the ills of neoliberal, financialised capital existed before the Big B...and er....still exist, despite the glorious day of liberation?


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Sep 1, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Appropriate though, as the notion that either outcome would materially improve conditions for the working class was always mythical.



The Brexit vote, in working class areas, was never ime perceived as a vote ‘to improve the conditions’ of those living in them. It was, and still is, rightly seen as a kick in the bollocks for the establishment. Like Alan Sillitoe’s long distance runner ‘he got nothing for himself except the satisfaction that they hadn’t won either’.

Many Brexit voters had long twigged that voting for any party was essentially a vote for an attack on themselves, their lives and their communities. In response they gave up voting. But in a referendum they knew their votes would add up. People who hadn’t voted for years joined the queue to cast their vote.

Remain was and is perceived as a flaccid pro-establishment rump.


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## brogdale (Sep 1, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> The Brexit vote, in working class areas, was never ime perceived as a vote ‘to improve the conditions’ of those living in them. It was, and still is, rightly seen as a kick in the bollocks for the establishment. Like Alan Sillitoe’s long distance runner ‘he got nothing for himself except the satisfaction that they hadn’t won either’.
> 
> Many Brexit voters twigged that voting for any party was essentially a vote for an attack on themselves, their lives and their communities. In response they gave up voting. But in a referendum their votes would add up.


Not what the 'Lexit' faithful were saying.


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## Smokeandsteam (Sep 1, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Not what the 'Lexit' faithful were saying.



You'll need to do better than that. The Brexit vote and the subsequent Lexit campaign are entirely separate things. The former was organic, bottom up and one of the most punishing blows to a section of the ruling/narrating class in living memory. The latter was work by some on the left to produce a set of ideas and demands that synthesised those impulses and attempted to take advantage of the loss of shackles from the neo-liberal surpa state. And guess what - as wages rise, labour becomes more valuable and as the Labour Party begin to adopt large chunks of that work - loads of it was bang on the money…


----------



## brogdale (Sep 1, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> You'll need to do better than that. The Brexit vote and the subsequent Lexit campaign are entirely separate things. The former was organic, bottom up and one of the most punishing blows to a section of the ruling/narrating class in living memory. The latter was work by some on the left to produce a set of ideas and demands that synthesised those impulses and attempted to take advantage of the loss of shackles from the neo-liberal surpa state


That the "Brexit vote" was an "organic, bottom up" phenomenon is, I'm afraid, one of the most ludicrous things I've seen written about Brexit on here.   

I was born 12 years before the UK state's accession to the EEC and that same year saw the founding of the first, formal right-wing Conservative pressure group to lobby against UK membership and they've always been there since then.


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## bimble (Sep 1, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> one of the most punishing blows to a section of the ruling/narrating class in living memory.


Not sure how useful that punishing blow was, given that that this man was able to pass himself off as the champion of the revolution.


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## Artaxerxes (Sep 1, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> You don’t have to. You can just moan and grumble about the ‘good old days’ if you prefer. Smother yourselves in the warm blanket of nostalgia whilst resting after searching Twitter for photos of empty sandwich shelves



Good, its our turn now after all. The pro-Brexit crowd have had 50 years of doing that so its about time we had a go.


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## ruffneck23 (Sep 1, 2021)

Beer shortages at Wetherspoons after Brexit and Covid hit supply chains
					

Pints of Carling and Coors are unavailable in some branches, with the problem due to a lack of lorry drivers.




					metro.co.uk


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## nino_savatte (Sep 1, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> You don’t have to. You can just moan and grumble about the ‘good old days’ if you prefer. Smother yourselves in the warm blanket of nostalgia whilst resting after searching Twitter for photos of empty sandwich shelves


Smothering (interesting choice of word) oneself in a "warm blanket of nostalgia" isn't at all what Brexiteers did, right?


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## Smokeandsteam (Sep 1, 2021)

brogdale said:


> That the "Brexit vote" was an "organic, bottom up" phenomenon is, I'm afraid, one of the most ludicrous things I've seen written about Brexit on here.



Don't be afraid. Write more on how this nexus between 'formal' conservative pressure groups and deindustrialised areas took shape, quote the empirical research, _set the Remain stall out _


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## nino_savatte (Sep 1, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> You'll need to do better than that. The Brexit vote and the subsequent Lexit campaign are entirely separate things. The former was organic, bottom up and one of the most punishing blows to a section of the ruling/narrating class in living memory. The latter was work by some on the left to produce a set of ideas and demands that synthesised those impulses and attempted to take advantage of the loss of shackles from the neo-liberal surpa state. And guess what - as wages rise, labour becomes more valuable and as the Labour Party begin to adopt large chunks of that work - loads of it was bang on the money…


There was nothing remotely "bottom up" about the Brexit campaign. Nothing. It was run by bourgeois moneyed types like Banks, Farage, Rees Mogg et al.


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## Smokeandsteam (Sep 1, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Good, its our turn now after all. The pro-Brexit crowd have had 50 years of doing that so its about time we had a go.



Everyone eventually becomes what they once railed against sort of thing? Interesting....


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## Smokeandsteam (Sep 1, 2021)

nino_savatte said:


> There was nothing remotely "bottom up" about the Brexit campaign. Nothing. It was run by bourgeois moneyed types like Banks, Farage, Rees Mogg et al.



Agree. Both formal campaigns were the preserve of the elites. But who was talking about that?


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## Badgers (Sep 1, 2021)

nino_savatte said:


> There was nothing remotely "bottom up" about the Brexit campaign. Nothing. It was run by bourgeois moneyed types like Banks, Farage, Rees Mogg et al.


Massive tax dodge at the nations expense


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## nino_savatte (Sep 1, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Agree. Both formal campaigns were the preserve of the elites. But who was talking about that?


So, what's your point? You were the one crapping on about how the Brexit campaign was "bottom up" when, in fact, it wasn't. There was nothing "grassroots" about it. You offered that dichotomy in your post and now, you're trying to back away from it. Take some responsibility ffs.


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## brogdale (Sep 1, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Don't be afraid. Write more on how this nexus between 'formal' conservative pressure groups and deindustrialised areas took shape, quote the empirical research, _set the Remain stall out _


I've got no stall to set out wrt to the binary alternative to the superstructural tinkering of the UK's constitutional/trading status offered to the electorate. Nor do I have or see the need to provide empirical evidence. What i do have is lived experience of being working class, living in a working class community and remembering just how neglibible was the impact of the EU on the consciousness of this on those around me. Until the pressure groups became parties and the parties secured support from elements of the billionaire press and media, no-one I knew cared a fig about the supra-state. If your lived experiences differed and the folk around you were always blaming the supra-state for their ills, then fair play.


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## brogdale (Sep 1, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Massive tax dodge at the nations expense


Certainly a massive shorting/hedging opportunity. A few years ago I spoke with a, now retired, Forex trader who remembered the economic turmoil of the 1970s with great affection saying that it was in those times of greatest 'uncertainty' that the speculators and traders made the billions for their corps and their own bonus pots.


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## Smokeandsteam (Sep 1, 2021)

nino_savatte said:


> So, what's your point? You were the one crapping on about how the Brexit campaign was "bottom up" when, in fact, it wasn't. There was nothing "grassroots" about it. You offered that dichotomy in your post and now, you're trying to back away from it. Take some responsibility ffs.



No I wasn't. I was talking about the Brexit vote in working class areas.


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## Smokeandsteam (Sep 1, 2021)

brogdale said:


> I've got no stall to set out wrt to the binary alternative to the superstructural tinkering of the UK's constitutional/trading status offered to the electorate. Nor do I have or see the need to provide empirical evidence. What i do have is lived experience of being working class, living in a working class community and remembering just how neglibible was the impact of the EU on the consciousness of this on those around me. Until the pressure groups became parties and the parties secured support from elements of the billionaire press and media, no-one I knew cared a fig about the supra-state. If your lived experiences differed and the folk around you were always blaming the supra-state for their ills, then fair play.



I have made the point that the working class vote was _independent_ in its aims and in intent to the formal campaigns. It's aim was, at root, to take a rare opportunity to boot back those who had been booting it for years. I have argued that it wasn't perceived as a vote to improve their conditions (although people certainly thought that as things couldn't get any worse that voting Brexit would not worsen them). I have not suggested - at any point - that "the folk around you were always blaming the supra-state for their ills". Bizarre to claim I have.


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## brogdale (Sep 1, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I have made the point that the working class vote was _independent_ in its aims and in intent to the formal campaigns. It's aim was, at root, to take a rare opportunity to boot back those who had been booting it for years. I have argued that it wasn't perceived as a vote to improve their conditions (although people certainly thought that as things couldn't get any worse that voting Brexit would not worsen them). I have not suggested - at any point - that "the folk around you were always blaming the supra-state for their ills". Bizarre to claim I have.


Nah, mate that was no claim...that was an invitation to say if your lived experience (and that of those around you) differed to mine. I'm old enough to remember when the Labour movement was engaged with debate about the merits of the 'common market', but as to actual working class folk...after 1975 I can recall pretty much zero interest expressed in it by those around me and, until the notion became a pet topic of the billionaire press, anyone saying that ever heard actually living working class people say....hey, let's "kick in the bollocks for the establishment" by calling for a withdrawal from the supra-state and our trading arrangements determined by membership!  Well....

You're sounding more and more like a deluded zealot.


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## Serene (Sep 1, 2021)

I bought a Banana yesterday at the shops and they had gone off, gone black, by the time I got them home 20 minutes later. This isnt the first time this has happened, it has been recurring over the last 5 months. Thanks Brexiteers.


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## Yossarian (Sep 1, 2021)

Serene said:


> I bought a Banana yesterday at the shops and they had gone off, gone black, by the time I got them home 20 minutes later. This isnt the first time this has happened, it has been recurring over the last 5 months. Thanks Brexiteers.



But was it bendy?


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## nino_savatte (Sep 1, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> No I wasn't. I was talking about the Brexit vote in working class areas.


Don't talk such rot. The words in bold are yours. Own them. 



> You'll need to do better than that. The Brexit vote and the subsequent Lexit campaign are entirely separate things. *The former was organic, bottom up and one of the most punishing blows to a section of the ruling/narrating class in living memory.* The latter was work by some on the left to produce a set of ideas and demands that synthesised those impulses and attempted to take advantage of the loss of shackles from the neo-liberal surpa state. And guess what - as wages rise, labour becomes more valuable and as the Labour Party begin to adopt large chunks of that work - loads of it was bang on the money…


----------



## nino_savatte (Sep 1, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> *I have made the point that the working class vote was independent in its aims and in intent to the formal campaigns. *It's aim was, at root, to take a rare opportunity to boot back those who had been booting it for years. I have argued that it wasn't perceived as a vote to improve their conditions (although people certainly thought that as things couldn't get any worse that voting Brexit would not worsen them). I have not suggested - at any point - that "the folk around you were always blaming the supra-state for their ills". Bizarre to claim I have.


Really? Let's have some evidence, then.


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## ska invita (Sep 1, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> And guess what - as wages rise,


Average wages are falling - posted the graph from the FT just yesterday IIRC

link


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## Serene (Sep 1, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> But was it bendy?


Im not going in my bin to investigate.


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## ska invita (Sep 1, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I have made the point that the working class vote was _independent_ in its aims and in intent to the formal campaigns. It's aim was, at root, to take a rare opportunity to boot back those who had been booting it for years.


For some, and others for other reasons. What were all the millions of wealthy home county boomers whose vote was so crucial in winning the referendum booting against?
Ive said it before: there's so much projection on all parts of Brexit, and from all sides, people see what they want to see. its the most incredible example of mass confirmation bias


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## The39thStep (Sep 1, 2021)

brogdale said:


> I've got no stall to set out wrt to the binary alternative to the superstructural tinkering of the UK's constitutional/trading status offered to the electorate. Nor do I have or see the need to provide empirical evidence. What i do have is lived experience of being working class, living in a working class community and remembering just how neglibible was the impact of the EU on the consciousness of this on those around me. Until the pressure groups became parties and the parties secured support from elements of the billionaire press and media, no-one I knew cared a fig about the supra-state. If your lived experiences differed and the folk around you were always blaming the supra-state for their ills, then fair play.


Never heard the term supra-state until I saw a post by you tbh .


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## seeformiles (Sep 1, 2021)

Serene said:


> I am not good on knowing the prices of food, but I have been noticing prices that look quite a bit more expensive than I think they were in pre-Brexit.



As someone who’s always had to keep a close eye on the pennies, I reckon food as % of income has never been cheaper - especially things like chicken which was far more expensive 30 years ago. I put it down partly to supermarkets’ aggressive bargaining with farmers and suppliers and partly the rise of budget stores like Aldi and Lidl that initially forced the likes of Sainsbury’s to drop their prices - although they’ve been creeping up again as, from a marketing POV they like to see themselves in the same bracket as Waitrose and M&S (who were always prohibitively expensive).


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## brogdale (Sep 1, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Never heard the term supra-state until I saw a post by you tbh .


Every day's a school day, eh?


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## ska invita (Sep 1, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Never heard the term supra-state until I saw a post by you tbh .


a totally common term in politics of the EU literature (way pre-Brexit) tbf


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## The39thStep (Sep 1, 2021)

ska invita said:


> a totally common term in politics of the EU literature (way pre-Brexit) tbf


I did not know that . Any citations


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## The39thStep (Sep 1, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Every day's a school day, eh?


Especially when your mum reminds you


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## ska invita (Sep 1, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> I did not know that . Any citations


yes loads , in books about the EU

(suprastate or superstate)


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## editor (Sep 1, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I have made the point that the working class vote was _independent_ in its aims and in intent to the formal campaigns.



What evidence do you have to support such a remarkable claim?


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## Elpenor (Sep 1, 2021)

seeformiles said:


> As someone who’s always had to keep a close eye on the pennies, I reckon food as % of income has never been cheaper - especially things like chicken which was far more expensive 30 years ago. I put it down partly to supermarkets’ aggressive bargaining with farmers and suppliers and partly the rise of budget stores like Aldi and Lidl that initially forced the likes of Sainsbury’s to drop their prices - although they’ve been creeping up again as, from a marketing POV they like to see themselves in the same bracket as Waitrose and M&S (who were always prohibitively expensive).


Sainsbury’s are still making a big thing about a lot of their standard lines being the same price as Aldi


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## seeformiles (Sep 1, 2021)

Elpenor said:


> Sainsbury’s are still making a big thing about a lot of their standard lines being the same price as Aldi



As do Waitrose (although I think they use Tesco as their point of comparison) but there’s still a major difference if you do your entire weekly shop there.


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## brogdale (Sep 1, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> I did not know that . Any citations


Jesus, what is it with you Brexit loyalists and demands for citations, today?


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## The39thStep (Sep 1, 2021)

ska invita said:


> yes loads , in books about the EU
> 
> (suprastate or superstate)


Ah thanks for the edit . Superstate yes I agree.


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## Smokeandsteam (Sep 1, 2021)

editor said:


> What evidence do you have to support such a remarkable claim?



Seeing as you always approach these matters empirically:

Koch: What's in a Vote? Brexit beyond culture wars
McKenzie The Class Politics of Prejudice: Brexit and the Land of no-Hope and Glory
Telford & Wistow  Brexit and the Working Class on Teeside: Moving beyond Reductionism
Short: The Geography of Brexit: What the vote reveals about the Disunited Kingdom
Dawson: Hating immigration and loving immigrants: Nationalism, electoral politics, and the post industrial white working class in Britain
Hall, Treadwell and Winlow: The Rise of the Right
Mahoney & Kearon: Social Quality and Brexit in Stoke-on-Trent, England
Willett, Tidy & others: Why did Cornwall vote for Brexit? Assessing the implications for EU structural funding programmes
McKenzie: ‘It’s not ideal’: Reconsidering ‘anger’ and ‘apathy’ in the Brexit vote among an invisible working class

Abstract from article 1:

The result of the United Kingdom's EU referendum has been interpreted as evidence of a “culture war” between proponents of liberal cosmopolitanism and defenders of socially conservative values. According to this interpretation, voters on both sides are seen as driven by identity-based politics. B_ut on a council estate (social-housing project) in England, what made the EU referendum different from an ordinary election was that citizens perceived it as an opportunity to reject government as they know it. _Citizens’ engagements with the referendum constitute attempts to insert everyday moralities into electoral processes. They provide an opening into alternative, if yet unknown, futures that go beyond any singular narratives that divide the electorate into camps of so-called Leavers and Remainers.

Summary from article 3:


(a) The effects of neoliberalism on working-class life over the last 40 years provide an important explanatory framework for the vote;
(b) The Labour Party’s abandonment of the working class appears to be a principal reason why these people voted to leave;
(c) _The EU referendum offered a unique opportunity for working-class people to voice their dissatisfaction with the dominant social, cultural and political hegemon in contemporary England_

You should be able to read all of these online - or at least the abstract.

​


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## editor (Sep 1, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Seeing as you always approach these matters empirically:
> 
> Koch: What's in a Vote? Brexit beyond culture wars
> McKenzie The Class Politics of Prejudice: Brexit and the Land of no-Hope and Glory
> ...


There as no such thing as a unified 'working class' vote and to suggest there was is utter bollocks. It's not the 1950s any more.


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## brogdale (Sep 1, 2021)

editor said:


> There as no such thing as a unified 'working class' vote and to suggest there was is utter bollocks. It's not the 1950s any more.


tbf, though I may not share Smokeandsteam 's analysis, you did ask them for evidence and they have offered some.


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## Smokeandsteam (Sep 1, 2021)

brogdale said:


> tbf, though I may not share Smokeandsteam 's analysis, you did ask them for evidence and they have offered some.



Thanks Brogdale, even as I typed it out I knew I'd get some dismissive shit like that from editor. Lesson learnt for the future.


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## The39thStep (Sep 1, 2021)

editor said:


> There as no such thing as a unified 'working class' vote and to suggest there was is utter bollocks. It's not the 1950s any more.


Around a quarter of the W/ class voted Tory in the 50s and 60s . The figure is much higher now


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## editor (Sep 1, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Around a quarter of the W/ class voted Tory in the 50s and 60s . The figure is much higher now


Gotta love the way you just slip in the 1960s there when I made zero reference to it. Either way my point still stands.*

And...



> In 1966, 69 per cent of manual workers gave their X to Labour at election time. This number waned through the 1970s and 1980s until, by 1987, only 45 per cent of manual workers voted Labour. The greatest desertion was among skilled manual workers. Between 1945 and the end of the 1950s, around 60 per cent of these workers supported Labour; by the time of the mid-1980s only 34 per cent did.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



*I may have misread your post (on my phone) so apols for the fiery response!


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## Yossarian (Sep 1, 2021)

editor said:


> There as no such thing as a unified 'working class' vote and to suggest there was is utter bollocks. It's not the 1950s any more.



The C2DE vote was 64%-36% in favour of Brexit - a very clear majority, but not exactly an overwhelming consensus.

With the large age differential in the Brexit vote taken into account, the vote among the working-age people who stood to be most affected by Brexit was probably a lot closer to 50/50.


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## Smokeandsteam (Sep 1, 2021)

editor said:


> Gotta love the way you just slip in the 1960s there when I made zero reference to it.



How rude. Your post was so well argued and thought out as well.


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## editor (Sep 1, 2021)

brogdale said:


> tbf, though I may not share Smokeandsteam 's analysis, you did ask them for evidence and they have offered some.


It's not 'evidence' that actually supports his claim though, is it?


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## Supine (Sep 1, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Seeing as you always approach these matters empirically:
> 
> Koch: What's in a Vote? Brexit beyond culture wars
> McKenzie The Class Politics of Prejudice: Brexit and the Land of no-Hope and Glory
> ...



There was no working class movement for this vote. You are correct that a lot of people voted against the establishment line to give them a kicking, and I can understand why some people did that. It isn’t exactly a ringing endorsement for the concept or reality of Brexit though is it? To me it’s more like the turkeys voting for Christmas - see the fishing community for a perfect example of this.


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## bimble (Sep 1, 2021)

ska invita said:


> For some, and others for other reasons. What were all the millions of wealthy home county boomers whose vote was so crucial in winning the referendum booting against?
> Ive said it before: there's so much projection on all parts of Brexit, and from all sides, people see what they want to see. *its the most incredible example of mass confirmation bias*


This is probably the truest thing said on this thread. That referendum result is like a Rorschach inkblot, it means whatever you want it to mean.

But if you're going to characterise the thing in any one way you do have to ignore a hell of a lot of inconvenient brexit voters, like the ones here (majority leave & devoutly tory since the dawn of time ).


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## ska invita (Sep 1, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Ah thanks for the edit . Superstate yes I agree.


pretty sure super and supra are interchangeable


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## not a trot (Sep 1, 2021)

Supine said:


> There was no working class movement for this vote. You are correct that a lot of people voted against the establishment line to give them a kicking, and I can understand why some people did that. It isn’t exactly a ringing endorsement for the concept or reality of Brexit though is it? *To me it’s more like the turkeys voting for Christmas - see the fishing community for a perfect example of this.*


So what did the fish vote for ?


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## brogdale (Sep 1, 2021)

ska invita said:


> pretty sure super and supra are interchangeable


It's pretty straightforward AFAICS, supra national = an entity bigger than/greater than than the nation states involved with it.


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## Supine (Sep 1, 2021)

not a trot said:


> So what did the fish vote for ?



I suspect they prefer the classical french style to being battered and deep fried.


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## ska invita (Sep 1, 2021)

brogdale said:


> It's pretty straightforward AFAICS, supra national = an entity bigger than/greater than than the nation states involved with it.


i did reading quite a few years ago about multiculturalism + minority and  migrant rights within the EU, and specifically this comes up often in law where there the nation state has certain legislation and the EU suprastate provides other protections above that, and the sometimes complicated interaction and gaps between the two levels. I remember very little of it now though


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## Steel Icarus (Sep 1, 2021)

editor said:


> It's not 'evidence' that actually supports his claim though, is it?


Have you read the evidence he provided at your request?


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## Smokeandsteam (Sep 1, 2021)

editor said:


> It's not 'evidence' that actually supports his claim though, is it?



You asked for evidence that the working class Brexit vote was independent from, and motivated by reasons apart from, the formal Leave campaign and the positions it put forward. I have provided academic research from the south, the Midlands and the north that suggests my analysis is correct. You might not like it or agree with it but to deny that it says what it says is pathetic.


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## Smokeandsteam (Sep 1, 2021)

S☼I said:


> Have you read the evidence he provided at your request?



I suspect he's skimmed it, doesn't like the cut of its gib and has decided to cloud the waters by pretending it says something else and by trying to start a debate about the 1950's. Par for the course.


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## Steel Icarus (Sep 1, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> You asked for evidence that the working class Brexit vote was independent from, and motivated by reasons apart from, the formal Leave campaign and the positions it put forward. I have provided academic research from the south, the Midlands and the north that suggests my analysis is correct. You might not like it or agree with it but to deny that it says what is says is pathetic.


You're never going to get an honest discourse, try as you might.


----------



## Supine (Sep 1, 2021)




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## brogdale (Sep 1, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> You asked for evidence that the working class Brexit vote was independent from, and motivated by reasons apart from, the formal Leave campaign and the positions it put forward. I have provided academic research from the south, the Midlands and the north that suggests my analysis is correct. You might not like it or agree with it but to deny that it says what is says is pathetic.


There are, of course, less palatable sources of empirical data, that might also support your contention that the working class Brexit vote was independent from, and motivated by reasons apart from, the formal Leave campaign:


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## brogdale (Sep 1, 2021)

I think that's the largest polling numbers split.


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## Smokeandsteam (Sep 1, 2021)

brogdale said:


> There are, of course, less palatable sources of empirical data, that might also support your contention that the working class Brexit vote was independent from, and motivated by reasons apart from, the formal Leave campaign:
> 
> View attachment 286250



See Dawson.


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## brogdale (Sep 1, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> See Dawson.


Link?


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## Smokeandsteam (Sep 1, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Link?



Off out now. Will post it later


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 1, 2021)

Supine said:


> View attachment 286251


We've been round this about a million times over the past 4/5 years.  . In a way ska invita  has a point there's enough data out there skewed to  which ever way anyone wants.  
What I find puzzling is that very few posters on here ,who use whatever data re Brexit they prefer , argue or sketch out a future post Brexit .

Have you any suggestions or  proposals for the future based on those figures you posted ?


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 1, 2021)

ska invita said:


> pretty sure super and supra are interchangeable


as I am sure they would have been  in  the politics of the EU literature (way pre-Brexit)


----------



## editor (Sep 1, 2021)

S☼I said:


> Have you read the evidence he provided at your request?


Do you actually  agree with his claim then?


----------



## Supine (Sep 1, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> We've been round this about a million times over the past 4/5 years.  . In a way ska invita  has a point there's enough data out there skewed to  which ever way anyone wants.
> What I find puzzling is that very few posters on here ,who use whatever data re Brexit they prefer , argue or sketch out a future post Brexit .
> 
> Have you any suggestions or  proposals for the future based on those figures you posted ?



I was responding to a poster who talked about the working class and why they voted.

Do i have a proposal? Honestly I don’t, but I will push for closer integration with Europe as much as possible (without full rejoining -  which is off the table for at least a generation imho).

This is a thread for all the damage brexit is doing so that’s what I’ll be posting in here. It’ll be a busy thread just on that subject.


----------



## ska invita (Sep 1, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Thanks Brogdale, even as I typed it out I knew I'd get some dismissive shit like that from editor. Lesson learnt for the future.


Editor makes a fair point, the big city urban working class voted majority remain. Makes talking about a working class vote in totality and generalisations meaningless.

Eta: it also doesnt answer how any vote cast is truly Independent of campaigns. Campaigns are designed to influence. I'm sure the majority of all voters  think of themselves as independent thinkers


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 1, 2021)

Supine said:


> I was responding to a poster who talked about the working class and why they voted.
> 
> Do i have a proposal? Honestly I don’t, but I will push forcloser integration with Europe as much as possible (without full rejoining -  which is off the table for at least a generation imho).
> 
> This is a thread for all the damage brexit is doing so that’s what I’ll be posting in here. It’ll be a busy thread just on that subject.


So what would be the way forward to campaign for closer integration with Europe as much as possible (without full rejoining ? What forces/ parties? What would close integration look like as a goal?


----------



## Supine (Sep 1, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> So what would be the way forward to campaign for closer integration with Europe as much as possible (without full rejoining ? What forces/ parties? What would close integration look like as a goal?



I might start a thread on it in a few years time


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 1, 2021)

Supine said:


> I might start a thread on it in a few years time


yeh you don't want to rush into something like that


----------



## existentialist (Sep 1, 2021)

I liked this thread better when that Uksomething twat was pulling nonsense out of his arse


----------



## Steel Icarus (Sep 1, 2021)

editor said:


> Do you actually  agree with his claim then?


Irrelevance. I asked you whether you'd read the evidence he asked for.


----------



## editor (Sep 1, 2021)

S☼I said:


> Irrelevance. I asked you whether you'd read the evidence he asked for.


Oh, it's wriggle time. He made a ludicrous claim that is clearly complete bollocks. Instead of just admitting his error, he went for the time-honoured bluffer's tactic of pasting up a half-ton of random links, none of which actually directly and fully support his assertion because - as everyone knows - it's a ridiculous claim in the first place, as others have pointed out. 

Now answer my question please.


----------



## Badgers (Sep 1, 2021)




----------



## ska invita (Sep 1, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Seeing as you always approach these matters empirically:
> 
> McKenzie The Class Politics of Prejudice: Brexit and the Land of no-Hope and Glory


As you say we can only read the abstracts. So heres one from that paper for example (first one i picked):
"This paper focuses upon the _sense _that class politics, and cultural class distinction, within the UK had the biggest influence in determining a working-class ‘Leave Vote’ in the 2016 referendum within the UK. This paper explores accounts and narratives from working-class ‘leave’ voters though an ethnographic study of the political and social viewpoints of working-class communities of East London"

....yet the majority of london working class voted Remain. So it proves nothing other than flagging some voices.

All that proves is that there are a whole range of reasons people voted the way they did, across the class spectrum, including these. Lisa McKenzie is hardly unbiased. It looks like she has selectively found people who make her case for her and highlighted their voices above others. Its not much different to doing vox pops and editing them. Theres all kind of attitudes to Brexit you can find through that process. 33 million people cast a vote. Its impossible to generalise about the reasons why by such mass categories as working class

*ETA also what part of working class east london makes a huge difference. Barking and Dagenham have had big BNP votes in the recent past. Lewisham hasn't. Within a borough there are different estates with different micropolitics. There are a variety of complex reasons for those differences. Chosing where to do such interviews is already a hugely biased decision from which to draw any wider conclusions


----------



## editor (Sep 1, 2021)

ska invita said:


> As you say we can only read the abstracts. So heres one from that paper for example (first one i picked):
> "This paper focuses upon the _sense _that class politics, and cultural class distinction, within the UK had the biggest influence in determining a working-class ‘Leave Vote’ in the 2016 referendum within the UK. This paper explores accounts and narratives from working-class ‘leave’ voters though an ethnographic study of the political and social viewpoints of working-class communities of East London"
> 
> ....yet the majority of london working class voted Remain. So it proves nothing other than flagging some voices.
> ...


Exactly!


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 1, 2021)

ska invita said:


> As you say we can only read the abstracts. So heres one from that paper for example (first one i picked):
> "This paper focuses upon the _sense _that class politics, and cultural class distinction, within the UK had the biggest influence in determining a working-class ‘Leave Vote’ in the 2016 referendum within the UK. This paper explores accounts and narratives from working-class ‘leave’ voters though an ethnographic study of the political and social viewpoints of working-class communities of East London"
> 
> ....yet the majority of london working class voted Remain. So it proves nothing other than flagging some voices.
> ...


Barking and Dagenham also had a very strong CP many years ago .You should know enough about the reasons where the far right have had an impact and the reasons for it .  I’d be careful about pathologizing areas if I were you .


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 1, 2021)

ska invita said:


> As you say we can only read the abstracts. So heres one from that paper for example (first one i picked):
> "This paper focuses upon the _sense _that class politics, and cultural class distinction, within the UK had the biggest influence in determining a working-class ‘Leave Vote’ in the 2016 referendum within the UK. This paper explores accounts and narratives from working-class ‘leave’ voters though an ethnographic study of the political and social viewpoints of working-class communities of East London"
> 
> ....yet the majority of london working class voted Remain. So it proves nothing other than flagging some voices.
> ...


final accepted version online at The class politics of prejudice: Brexit and the land of no-hope and glory  - Middlesex University Research Repository


----------



## Artaxerxes (Sep 1, 2021)

I think its fair to say there is an impression that the working clas voted for Brexit, and that The Red Wall Labour voted for Brexit thats been carefully cultivated by the press and Boris. The problem is that doesn't actually hold scrutiny. If you look at the numbers Labour voters voted more for Remain than existing Tory voters.



The issue is that Brexit dragged people into the vote who would not normally vote - now its fair to say that Labour should have been appealing to these voters but haven't, but the Conservatives also weren't appealing to them. We spent the 2000's with Labour and Tories chasing the sacred Middle Ground* and shitting on everyone else and leaving UKIP to really stoke up fears of immigration and Europe, egged on by many many Conservative mouthpieces - much of the issues with being a member of the EU have been adopted wholeheartedly by the governments of the last 30 years from Thatcher onwards and any blowback to that has been deflected by the journalism of the likes of Mr Johnson saying "oh these are the EU rules" where the problem is that as seen in both France and Germany those rules are either happily ignored or only just adhered to. It is the government of the UK that really went full on to embrace the weights and measures issues, or the privatisation of the rails and post office. That those were absolute fucking disasters was then turned around and blamed on the EU.

The issues we've had with immigration can also be very much laid at Tonty Blairs feet and Labours feet, part of the issues with the standard policies of the last 20 years has been government punting immigrants into already struggling communities and never boosting or assisting the residents. O

Understandably at the end of this process in 2016 its why so many thought fuck it and voted Leave. But it was rather unfortunate they threw their weight behind some of the people who have been responsible the shafting done to the country and who've lied to us for the last few decades. Though arguably, voting either way would have meant siding with one bunch of liars or another.




*the middle ground being property owners and business owners and retirees because these are the people who turned out to vote.



ska invita said:


> As you say we can only read the abstracts. So heres one from that paper for example (first one i picked):
> "This paper focuses upon the _sense _that class politics, and cultural class distinction, within the UK had the biggest influence in determining a working-class ‘Leave Vote’ in the 2016 referendum within the UK. This paper explores accounts and narratives from working-class ‘leave’ voters though an ethnographic study of the political and social viewpoints of working-class communities of East London"
> 
> ....yet the majority of london working class voted Remain. So it proves nothing other than flagging some voices.
> ...



The issue with pining for the working class is its now very hard to say what that actually is. Why is a northerner almost always assumed to be working class? Why are graduates who are currently in debt to the fucking eyeballs working in Starbucks assumed to be part of the Metropolitan Elite? Especially given the last few decades pretending that everyone is only going to earn money by getting a degree.


----------



## Humberto (Sep 1, 2021)

With establishment orthodoxies such as 'innovators and strivers' and 'deserving poor', long term the majority of us will always lose. Any given government of the day will set the framework where our interests are ignored or worked against. So we will get binary options, none of which help us. Government becomes arbitrary, and pantomime.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Sep 1, 2021)

editor said:


> Oh, it's wriggle time. He made a ludicrous claim that is clearly complete bollocks. Instead of just admitting his error, he went for the time-honoured bluffer's tactic of pasting up a half-ton of random links, none of which actually directly and fully support his assertion because - as everyone knows - it's a ridiculous claim in the first place, as others have pointed out.
> 
> Now answer my question please.


No. Zero interest in getting into it with you.


----------



## gosub (Sep 1, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> You don’t have to. You can just moan and grumble about the ‘good old days’ if you prefer. Smother yourselves in the warm blanket of nostalgia whilst resting after searching Twitter for photos of empty sandwich shelves


Fair point BUT BRITISH FORIEGN POLICY IS FUCKED.   India invested a fuck ton in Afgan infrastructure projects.


----------



## gosub (Sep 1, 2021)

Humberto said:


> With establishment orthodoxies such as 'innovators and strivers' and 'deserving poor', long term the majority of us will always lose. Any given government of the day will set the framework where our interests are ignored or worked against. So we will get binary options, none of which help us. Government becomes arbitrary, and pantomime.


----------



## MrSki (Sep 1, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Seeing as you always approach these matters empirically:
> 
> Koch: What's in a Vote? Brexit beyond culture wars
> McKenzie The Class Politics of Prejudice: Brexit and the Land of no-Hope and Glory
> ...


5.50 onwards.
ETA both songs from the early 80s but still so relevant today.


Edit again to add that this is not a dig Smokeandsteam you are trying to argue your point but it seems to be falling apart. Did you try to deny there were any shortages or was that someone else?


----------



## extra dry (Sep 1, 2021)

if you wish to see a mix of coked up Gove, and bat sh#t crazy statements from Farage. I am just so amgry with their BS I want punch Boris repeatly in the face with a spiked plank of wood.


----------



## MrSki (Sep 2, 2021)

Badgers said:


>


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 2, 2021)

existentialist said:


> I liked this thread better when that Uksomething twat was pulling nonsense out of his arse



Yes, the parody Brexiteer bellends have gone a wee bit quiet. Loose Spanner Pants, etc.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Sep 2, 2021)

MrSki said:


> 5.50 onwards.
> ETA both songs from the early 80s but still so relevant today.
> 
> 
> Edit again to add that this is not a dig Smokeandsteam you are trying to argue your point but it seems to be falling apart. Did you try to deny there were any shortages or was that someone else?




Good to see you’ve recovered from the exhaustion induced by posting memes and FBPE Twitter links of pictures empty shelves. 

PS. You do know none of those links, bar one, were to books right? I know reading books and learning about things makes you very angry - you’ve raised it many times - and now even felt the need to post links to songs presumably about the appalling habit.. 

PPS. Now you are restored, and talking of food shortages, what is your position on the plan outlined by the captains of the food and farming industry to save us that we were discussing last week? Full support I’m guessing?


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Sep 2, 2021)

editor said:


> Oh, it's wriggle time. He made a ludicrous claim that is clearly complete bollocks. Instead of just admitting his error, he went for the time-honoured bluffer's tactic of pasting up a half-ton of random links, none of which actually directly and fully support his assertion because - as everyone knows - it's a ridiculous claim in the first place, as others have pointed out.
> 
> Now answer my question please.


PMSL. So, let’s get this straight. I make a statement about the working class Brexit vote. _You_ demand I provide evidence for it. I provide evidence for it. Now, _you_ accuse me of ‘bluffing’ for providing the evidence that _you_ demanded. Brilliant stuff.

You also, hilariously, claim that the evidence that you haven’t read doesn’t say what it does. We know it does because I pasted in the abstract from one and a conclusion from another precisely because I knew you’d claim that.

Incredible stuff.


----------



## Badgers (Sep 2, 2021)

#ProjectBeer


----------



## bimble (Sep 2, 2021)

The claim that "the working class brexit vote" was an independent movement / impulse and was not at all influenced by any of the propaganda, does that include people who voted for ukip in the preceding years or are they excluded?


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Sep 2, 2021)

bimble said:


> The claim that "the working class brexit vote" was an independent movement / impulse and was not at all influenced by any of the propaganda, does that include people who voted for ukip in the preceding years or are they excluded?



Some, yes. Many were labour voters. Many didn’t vote for anyone for years


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Sep 2, 2021)

ska invita said:


> As you say we can only read the abstracts.



If you want read any of the papers let me know and I’ll sort it. I’ve go no problem at all with people reading them and disagreeing with them (as you do, although you misunderstand ethnographic research ref the Lisa journal article). I even agree that more work needs to be done on this (tbf there is other work going on which will do so but won’t report before 2026) and until there is multiple explanations can and will be advanced.

My problem is with those who claim that there is no evidence/that I haven’t provided any having been asked to do so. Which is bollocks.


----------



## bimble (Sep 2, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Some, yes. Many were labour voters. Many didn’t vote for anyone for years


does that mean that Ukip itself was 'organic & bottom-up"?


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Sep 2, 2021)

bimble said:


> does that mean that Ukip itself was 'organic & bottom-up"?


No


----------



## Steel Icarus (Sep 2, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> If you want read any of the papers let me know and I’ll sort it. I’ve go no problem at all with people reading them and disagreeing with them (as you do, although you misunderstand ethnographic research ref the Lisa journal article). I even agree that more work needs to be done on this (tbf there is other work going on which will do so but won’t report before 2026) and until there is multiple explanations can and will be advanced.
> 
> My problem is with those who claim that there is no evidence/that I haven’t provided any having been asked to do so. Which is bollocks.


It's a masterclass in several different logical fallacies innit. It's pointless engaging with dishonest actors


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 2, 2021)

bimble said:


> does that mean that Ukip itself was 'organic & bottom-up"?


It was full of arses


----------



## brogdale (Sep 2, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> PMSL. So, let’s get this straight. I make a statement about the working class Brexit vote. _You_ demand I provide evidence for it. I provide evidence for it. Now, _you_ accuse me of ‘bluffing’ for providing the evidence that _you_ demanded. Brilliant stuff.
> 
> You also, hilariously, claim that the evidence that you haven’t read doesn’t say what it does. We know it does because I pasted in the abstract from one and a conclusion from another precisely because I knew you’d claim that.
> 
> Incredible stuff.


Quite possibly, but I was interested in our varying recollections of working class interest in anti-EU sentiment as an organic, bottom-up driver of the eventual plebiscite outcome.

Having thought about this, I still can't recall those around me expressing any interest in the EU between 1975 and the day my old Dad attempted to repeat some bendy banana/cumcumber story he'd read in the fucking Mail. Even from my LP days, the only time I recall any working class interest in the topic was that shitshow time when the party/TUC paraded Delors as the saviour to deliver us from Fatch.

Genuinely interested in your experience of where this bottom-up stuff came from..


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Sep 2, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Quite possibly, but I was interested in our varying recollections of working class interest in anti-EU sentiment as an organic, bottom-up driver of the eventual plebiscite outcome.
> 
> Having thought about this, I still can't recall those around me expressing any interest in the EU between 1975 and the day my old Dad attempted to repeat some bendy banana/cumcumber story he'd read in the fucking Mail. Even from my LP days, the only time I recall any working class interest in the topic was that shitshow time when the party/TUC paraded Delors as the saviour to deliver us from Fatch.
> 
> Genuinely interested in your experience of where this bottom-up stuff came from..



Actually my experience is different. My dad was a steelworker. Him and his mates have long (as long as I can remember anyway) hated the EU because the EC Coal and Steel Community imposed quotas in the 1970’s that led directly to the closure of their plant. I’ve got a photo of my dad and others with Tony Benn from 1977 when he met the stewards to discuss the quotas and where he called for the re-industrialisation of coal and steel making areas and in opposition to the ECSC drawdowns that were guiding Labour policy. All of this was before Thatcher got to work…when the labour and trade union movement - certainly the left part of it - was firmly and in a long term basis anti EU. My dad and his mates wanted to go to Brussels to have it out with the bureaucrats but their union bosses (ISTC, a very right wing union) blocked it.

But you’ve missed my point. I’m not arguing and haven’t argued that there was an organic anti-EU sentiment. That was constructed. For sure, working class people were no fans of the EU anyway but the vote - it’s enthusiasm, it’s numbers, the anger behind it - was motivated at root by other reasons which can be summarised as: deindustrialisation, peripheralisation, despair and hatred towards the political class. People twigged that a) the boss/political class wanted and expected a remain vote and b) that under a referendum all votes would count unlike normal elections where whatever way you voted you got a wanker elected.

Did the constructed and top down narrative about the EU also play a role? Undoubtedly. Did that narrative synthesise into other grievances and feelings? Yes. But the visceral and motivational energy was not created by it. Hope that clarifies my position


----------



## brogdale (Sep 2, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Actually my experience is different. My dad was a steelworker. Him and his mates have long (as long as I can remember anyway) hated the EU because the EC Coal and Steel Community imposed quotas in the 1970’s that led directly to the closure of their plant. I’ve got a photo of my dad and others with Tony Benn from 1977 when he met the stewards to discuss the quotas and where he called for the re-industrialisation of coal and steel making areas and in opposition to the ECSC drawdowns that were guiding Labour policy. All of this was before Thatcher got to work…when the labour and trade union movement - certainly the left part of it - was firmly and in a long term basis anti EU. My dad and his mates wanted to go to Brussels to have it out with the bureaucrats but their union bosses (ISTC, a very right wing union) blocked it.
> 
> But you’ve missed my point. I’m not arguing and haven’t argued that there was an organic anti-EU sentiment. That was constructed. For sure, working class people were no fans of the EU anyway but the vote - it’s enthusiasm, it’s numbers, the anger behind it - was motivated at root by other reasons which can be summarised as: deindustrialisation, peripheralisation, despair and hatred towards the political class. People twigged that a) the boss/political class wanted and expected a remain vote and b) that under a referendum all votes would count unlike normal elections where whatever way you voted you got a wanker elected.
> 
> Did the constructed and top down narrative about the EU also play a role? Undoubtedly. Did that narrative synthesise into other grievances and feelings? Yes. But the visceral and motivational energy was not created by it. Hope that clarifies my position


Thanks for that detailed response.

It's interesting that we're sharing divergent working class perspectives from different parts of the country and from different sectors (my Dad was a Labourer and Mum a cleaner, both un-unionised).

That said, I think we can agree on the long and increasingly effective, top-down construction of anti-EU sentiment that culminated in the 2016 result. Where I diverge from your analysis is when you say that "working class people were no fans of the EU anyway". I think that over-generalises from your (sector/geographical) specific and ignores the large proportion of working class voters who did actually vote to remain in 2016, especially when the retired are set to one side. 

My experience is that, before the billionaire media kicked off in earnest against membership, the working class people around me and my family were just not aware, interested or engaged in the constitutional/trading arrangements consequent on the shared sovereignty of supra-state membership.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Sep 2, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Thanks for that detailed response.
> 
> It's interesting that we're sharing divergent working class perspectives from different parts of the country and from different sectors (my Dad was a Labourer and Mum a cleaner, both un-unionised).
> 
> ...



I do not deny that there are regional (and other) variations in outturn, although the research I shared yesterday featured work in working class communities in the South West, London, the East Midlands and the north east suggesting a clear and diverse patterning (I have also read a similar study about ex-mining areas in South Wales but can't find it. But, there is an excellent chapter in Beynon and Hudson's recent book _The Shadow of the Mine _- sorry Mr Ski - that focuses on mining communities in the North East and South Wales and Brexit) . My main point is that the working class leave vote - in motive and foundation - is _distinct_ from the vote of the leave voting middle classes and the affluent, and that accounts that deposit them together are wide of the mark.

The working class remain vote is a separate issue and another area where there has not been enough thinking and work done. My guess is that it is also distinct from the garbage we see on this thread and FBPE Twitter etc and I would be interested in reading (sorry Mr Ski) any lucid accounts that deal with it.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 2, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> The working class remain vote is a separate issue and another area where there has not been enough thinking and work done. My guess is that it is also distinct from the garbage we see on this thread and FBPE Twitter etc


Yes, particularly the working age, working class vote.

I've spent years trying to explain to (some) posters on here why working class folk like some in my family and friends were drawn towards the UKIP position in the couple of years preceding the plebiscite, and I know well how effective was the line that conflated correlation and causation for the boomer generation. Yes, in may respects, things were palpably better for the organised working class before we joined the Common Market when the post-war social contract (capital's fear to actually existing system competiton) wrung out concessions. So the narrative that "look things have got worse since we joined Johnny foreigner" was always going to resonate with a generation old enough to remember 'Les Trente Glorieuses', but less so with those who were too young and knew only work under the neoliberal order.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 2, 2021)

And I should have added, of course, it's the oldies who actually bother voting.


----------



## not a trot (Sep 2, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Yes, particularly the working age, working class vote.
> 
> I've spent years trying to explain to (some) posters on here why working class folk like some in my family and friends were drawn towards the UKIP position in the couple of years preceding the plebiscite, and I know well how effective was the line that conflated correlation and causation for the boomer generation. Yes, in may respects, things were palpably better for the organised working class before we joined the Common Market when the post-war social contract (capital's fear to actually existing system competiton) wrung out concessions. So the narrative that "look things have got worse since we joined Johnny foreigner" was always going to resonate with a generation old enough to remember 'Les Trente Glorieuses', but less so with those who were too young and knew only work under the* neoliberal order.*


The working classes talk about nothing else round my way.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 2, 2021)

not a trot said:


> The working classes talk about nothing else round my way.


Which bit?


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 2, 2021)




----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 2, 2021)

The39thStep said:


>



 The Express and the Mail.

Are they truly representative of the British working class, though?


----------



## brogdale (Sep 2, 2021)

The39thStep said:


>



Just like the negative solidarity shite they spout about the salaries won by well unionised groups such as the tube drivers.


----------



## two sheds (Sep 2, 2021)

Indeed, last week they were "essential workers".


----------



## Yossarian (Sep 2, 2021)

£53,780 a year is apparently the maximum potential wage for one specific shift pattern in Bracknell, though the Daily Mail will probably now consider that the standard wage for lorry drivers - might not be long before they're coming out with headlines like "Greedy drivers hold Xmas to ransom by demanding MORE money."

_The supermarket told Yahoo News it is prepared to pay Large Good Vehicle (LGV) drivers an average salary of £45,000 for a 45 to 48 hour week.

 A specific shift pattern in Bracknell will even be paid £53,780 a year_


----------



## ElizabethofYork (Sep 2, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> The Express and the Mail.
> 
> Are they truly representative of the British working class, though?


You'd think they'd properly understand the idea of supply and demand, market forces and all that capitalist stuff.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Sep 2, 2021)




----------



## The39thStep (Sep 2, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> The Express and the Mail.
> 
> Are they truly representative of the British working class, though?


Express went down hill after the  Beachcomber column ended and they stopped printing advice on which ‘moderates’ to vote for in the print trade union elections.


----------



## Badgers (Sep 2, 2021)




----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 2, 2021)

Badgers said:


>



You ain't seen nothing yet


----------



## Badgers (Sep 2, 2021)

Another 'ProjectFear' idiot making things up


----------



## Badgers (Sep 2, 2021)

Another uneducated Remoaner


----------



## ska invita (Sep 2, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Another 'ProjectFear' idiot making things up



Lord Sainsbury has given millions to Labour and IIRC at the time the biggest ever donation to the LIb Dems


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 2, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Another uneducated Remoaner



Looks like all round to yours Badger


----------



## ska invita (Sep 2, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Another uneducated Remoaner



how can xmas dinner in 4 months time be cancelled?


----------



## Badgers (Sep 2, 2021)

Oh well, never mind 





__





						Coca-Cola’s supply chain under pressure due to shortage of cans | Coca-Cola | The Guardian
					






					amp-theguardian-com.cdn.ampproject.org


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Sep 2, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Oh well, never mind
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I understand they also face impending votes for strike action from their Unite organised drivers over long-standing pay and rostering demands. Delicious. Unlike their product.


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 2, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Oh well, never mind
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Nobody drinks cola anyway


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 2, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I understand they also face impending votes for strike action from their Unite organised drivers over long-standing pay and rostering demands. Delicious. Unlike their product.


Yes but prices will rise


----------



## MrSki (Sep 2, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Good to see you’ve recovered from the exhaustion induced by posting memes and FBPE Twitter links of pictures empty shelves.
> 
> PS. You do know none of those links, bar one, were to books right? I know reading books and learning about things makes you very angry - you’ve raised it many times - and now even felt the need to post links to songs presumably about the appalling habit..
> 
> PPS. Now you are restored, and talking of food shortages, what is your position on the plan outlined by the captains of the food and farming industry to save us that we were discussing last week? Full support I’m guessing?


I love reading too. However I do not base reality on what is written in a book I might have agreed with.
The problem I have with a lot of your arguments is you try to contradict peoples' actual lived experiences with a quote from something you have read. Because it is written in a book (or article) does not make it true. What a real person is reporting though is their own reality. 
Do you still deny there are food shortages in supermarkets & supply chain issues?

I am certainly not a supporter of captains of industry & fully support unionisation in the work place. Was a TU rep for 6 years in the 90s & think what Bob Crow managed to achieve for tube drivers should be an inspiration to other TU leaders but can't see it happening any time soon.
I post memes & other shite because if I don't laugh at the situation & take it too seriously I might get more depressed.
The working class were mugged off by tax evading billionaires.
Get over it.


----------



## Badgers (Sep 3, 2021)

Sovereignty


----------



## Artaxerxes (Sep 3, 2021)




----------



## dessiato (Sep 3, 2021)

JuanTwoThree said:


> This in Lidl is not a joke.
> 
> View attachment 286054
> 
> ...


Mercadona has cheddar.


----------



## bimble (Sep 3, 2021)

i had no idea we used to export lots of chocolate to the EU.
Apparently Chocolate is / was the UK’s second-largest food and drink export, after whiskey (!)









						UK chocolate producers among hardest hit in post-Brexit exports to EU
					

UK chocolate producers, along with whisky and cheese makers, have suffered the biggest post-Brexit export losses in the food and drink sector, according to latest government statistics.




					www.confectionerynews.com


----------



## JuanTwoThree (Sep 3, 2021)

Mercadona does have it sporadically and it is the real deal
I wonder if the label has changed; presumably that UK M2 012 EC is something to do with its status


----------



## dessiato (Sep 3, 2021)

JuanTwoThree said:


> Mercadona does have it sporadically and it is the real dealView attachment 286444
> I wonder if the label has changed; presumably that UK M2 012 EC is something to do with its status


Mercadona in Puente Genil always has it, but there's a British enclave there.

Not sure it'll be the same here.


----------



## Badgers (Sep 3, 2021)

bimble said:


> i had no idea we used to export lots of chocolate to the EU.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




That pretty much echoes the plight of every UK exporter I spoke to.


----------



## bimble (Sep 3, 2021)

Did You Know that for 30 years the UK and EU were locked in a legal fight about the definition of chocolate?

'The chocolate war began in 1973 when Britain joined the EU. To continental Europeans, milky British chocolate with its vegetable fat was seen as less than the real thing but London's EU membership negotiators made it clear that Britain would not adopt EU chocolate standards..'





__





						CNN.com - Britain wins EU chocolate battle - Jan. 16, 2003
					





					edition.cnn.com


----------



## Badgers (Sep 3, 2021)

Yes


----------



## Artaxerxes (Sep 3, 2021)

I know after trying European chocolate the shit in the supermarket just isn't very good.


God I want to go back to Fazer cafe.


----------



## Badgers (Sep 3, 2021)

Sunlit Uplands come at you fast...


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 3, 2021)

German Confectionery Industry sees decline in exports to UK after Brexit
					

Export sales of German confectionery to Great Britain fell by -11.8% in the first quarter of 2021, The Federal Association of the German Confectionery Industry (BDSI).




					www.confectionerynews.com


----------



## bimble (Sep 3, 2021)

This says that about 40% of people have still not personally noticed anything going on with the supermarkets. Which helps to explain why people are still arguing about whether its happening or not. 

eta uncanny match with the % who say we were right to leave, which is now at 41% according to them.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 3, 2021)

bimble said:


> Did You Know that for 30 years the UK and EU were locked in a legal fight about the definition of chocolate?
> 
> 'The chocolate war began in 1973 when Britain joined the EU. To continental Europeans, milky British chocolate with its vegetable fat was seen as less than the real thing but London's EU membership negotiators made it clear that Britain would not adopt EU chocolate standards..'
> 
> ...


The UK famously joined the common market and left the eu


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 3, 2021)

Fascinating thread on Labour in 1981 meeting with what was then the EEC to discuss leaving it.


----------



## ska invita (Sep 3, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> German Confectionery Industry sees decline in exports to UK after Brexit
> 
> 
> Export sales of German confectionery to Great Britain fell by -11.8% in the first quarter of 2021, The Federal Association of the German Confectionery Industry (BDSI).
> ...


🇬🇧 two world wars and one reeses cup 🇬🇧


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 3, 2021)

ska invita said:


> 🇬🇧 two world wars and one reeses cup 🇬🇧


Thought Reese's cups were made in the States?


----------



## ska invita (Sep 3, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Thought Reese's cups were made in the States?


well if you can think of a UK chocolate that ends in the word "cup" I'll happily amend my post


----------



## spitfire (Sep 3, 2021)

JuanTwoThree said:


> Mercadona does have it sporadically and it is the real dealView attachment 286444
> I wonder if the label has changed; presumably that UK M2 012 EC is something to do with its status



That oval stamp shows it was made in a FSA approved premises.









						Guidance on health and identification marks that apply from 1 January 2021
					

Guidance on the health and identification marks that must be applied to products of animal origin (POAO), such as meat, egg products, fish, cheese and milk.




					www.food.gov.uk


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 3, 2021)

ska invita said:


> well if you can think of a UK chocolate that ends in the word "cup" I'll happily amend my post


No idea pal .  I see quite a lot of Cadburys chocolate here but I think its made in the EU. I'm a big Milka fan


----------



## gosub (Sep 3, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Indeed, last week they were "essential workers".


Daily Mail and Daily Express staff are not, nor have they ever been essential


----------



## Smangus (Sep 3, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> German Confectionery Industry sees decline in exports to UK after Brexit
> 
> 
> Export sales of German confectionery to Great Britain fell by -11.8% in the first quarter of 2021, The Federal Association of the German Confectionery Industry (BDSI).
> ...



I weep for my Ritter Sport marzipan 😭 fecking Brexit !


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 3, 2021)

gosub said:


> Daily Mail and Daily Express staff are not, nor have they ever been essential


The most curious thing about The Mail is that it has more women readers than male.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 3, 2021)

Smangus said:


> I weep for my Ritter Sport marzipan 😭 fecking Brexit !


tbh i continue to see ritter sport on a regular basis, not just marzipan but also mint and rum and raisin


----------



## Smangus (Sep 3, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> tbh i continue to see ritter sport on a regular basis, not just marzipan but also mint and rum and raisin


TBF I was taking the piss.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 3, 2021)

Smangus said:


> TBF I was taking the piss.


and i fell for it


----------



## Smangus (Sep 3, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> and i fell for it


My work is done, as they say, _deletes urban account_


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 3, 2021)

ska invita said:


> well if you can think of a UK chocolate that ends in the word "cup" I'll happily amend my post


there was the toffee cup in quality street, sadly gone now


----------



## two sheds (Sep 3, 2021)

what the flat ones with yellow wrapper? They're the only ones I really liked 

eta: no clearly not they'd hardly be called a cup


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Sep 3, 2021)

Also sadly no more...


----------



## Supine (Sep 3, 2021)

Free fruit thanks to those lovely brexiteers









						'Absolute bedlam' as hundreds turn up for free raspberries after Yorkshire farm cancels harvest due to worker shortage
					

A farm near York is allowing people to pick raspberries for free after finding it impossible to hire enough local staff to do the harvest.




					www.yorkshirepost.co.uk


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 3, 2021)




----------



## Yossarian (Sep 3, 2021)

Yes but prices will rise


----------



## gosub (Sep 3, 2021)

Smangus said:


> TBF I was taking the piss.


Obviously.  A lack of mazipan Ritter sport would be in the + column


----------



## gosub (Sep 3, 2021)

The39thStep said:


>



Fucking Waitrose.  No way Mr Big is going to sanction pay rises on that scale.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 3, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> The most curious thing about The Mail is that it has more women readers than male.


More elderly women than men?


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 3, 2021)

brogdale said:


> More elderly women than men?


Haven't a clue .


----------



## bimble (Sep 3, 2021)

Its probably the celeb stuff. Women read more True Crime novels than men too, which is weirder imo.


----------



## dessiato (Sep 3, 2021)

Supine said:


> Free fruit thanks to those lovely brexiteers
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Why not do a PYO and get something back?


----------



## Elpenor (Sep 3, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> The most curious thing about The Mail is that it has more women readers than male.


“The Daily Mail is read by the wives of the men who run the country” as per Sir Humphrey Appleby


----------



## Raheem (Sep 3, 2021)

dessiato said:


> Why not do a PYO and get something back?


Maybe they can claim on insurance and any income would just come off that.


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 3, 2021)

Elpenor said:


> “The Daily Mail is read by the wives of the men who run the country” as per Sir Humphrey Appleby


Ha ha.  Apparently, it also has the largest women readership of any paper.


----------



## bimble (Sep 3, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Ha ha.  Apparently, it also has the largest women readership of any paper.


And even so, if men had not been allowed to join in in the referendum, we'd not have done the stupid brexit.


----------



## danski (Sep 3, 2021)

ska invita said:


> well if you can think of a UK chocolate that ends in the word "cup" I'll happily amend my post


Rhymes, at least...Walnut whip, said by John Torode or Monica Galeti.


----------



## Supine (Sep 3, 2021)

And now flu jabs delayed









						Flu jabs in England and Wales delayed due to HGV driver shortage
					

The maker says it is two weeks behind on its deliveries, and vaccinations will have to be rescheduled.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## Badgers (Sep 3, 2021)

Supine said:


> And now flu jabs delayed
> 
> 
> 
> ...


#worldbeating


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 3, 2021)

Supine said:


> And now flu jabs delayed
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Whats happened to the idea, that a few posters on here got excited about,  that the army were going to start driving ?


----------



## Supine (Sep 3, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Whats happened to the idea, that a few posters on here got excited about,  that the army were going to start driving ?



Who got excited about it? Actually, I don’t care - forget the question.  That’s just a deflection from a subject that’s starting to get a bit serious. It’s all well and good if Wetherspoons run out of beer lol but medicine shortages are another matter.

What Brexit benefits justify this worsening situation? The answer is none.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 3, 2021)

Never mind the continuity remoaniban whingeing on about flu jab delays...I distinctly remember getting the actual flu a number of times when the UK was a member of the suprastate.


----------



## Raheem (Sep 3, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Whats happened to the idea, that a few posters on here got excited about,  that the army were going to start driving ?


Think something about optics and also there are not actually a huge number of army hgv drivers.


----------



## Supine (Sep 3, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Never mind the continuity remoaniban whingeing on about flu jab delays...I distinctly remember getting the actual flu a number of times when the UK was a member of the suprastate.



That’s my whinge dismissed


----------



## brogdale (Sep 3, 2021)

Supine said:


> That’s my whinge dismissed


Oh FFS...off with your  ...did you really need a  advanced organiser? It's Friday night, after all!


----------



## brogdale (Sep 3, 2021)

Chin up, (was meant to be funny).
Maybe I'm a few ahead of you?


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 4, 2021)

Supine said:


> And now flu jabs delayed
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Nobody gets the flu anyway


----------



## bimble (Sep 4, 2021)

Supine said:


> And now flu jabs delayed
> 
> 
> 
> ...


“Unforeseen challenges” lol.


----------



## bimble (Sep 4, 2021)

It’s definitely all going well so far. 








						Bin collection delays ongoing amid driver shortage
					

At least 18 councils across the UK have confirmed that they are experiencing delays to bin collection services as a result of staff shortages.




					www.cityam.com


----------



## andysays (Sep 4, 2021)

bimble said:


> It’s definitely all going well so far.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No problem with bin collection in the London borough I work in.

That might be because the waste collection is run in-house rather than by an outside contractor, as so many (including the borough where I live) now are, or it might be because the vast majority of staff are directly employed rather than agency workers with zero job security, as is the case in many councils.

The way these things are organised actually does have an effect on the resilience of services when significant shake ups like Brexit or Covid come along.

Rather than just making endless sarcastic comments about "things going well" it might be an idea if posters attempted to think about some of the underlying issues which make these current problems so widespread.

My suspicion is that the reality of sectors like waste collection is so far removed from the awareness of some* that they are unable to actually think about things properly and instead end up parroting what they've read in the media or on Twitter.

* not just you Bimble, but you're certainly one of those I have in mind. Hope that doesn't come across as too grumpy


----------



## Spymaster (Sep 4, 2021)

bimble said:


> True Crime novels



Isn’t that an oxymoron?


----------



## bimble (Sep 4, 2021)

I had a binman boyfriend once, long time ago but was decent money & hours and a good job for people who aren’t into having to smile on command.
Maybe it’s something to do with the way things are organised that a bunch of places are having a bin man shortage whilst other places aren’t, could also be that the drivers are seeing the much better money being offered now by the supermarkets etc and are going for those jobs instead, idk.


----------



## MrSki (Sep 4, 2021)

andysays said:


> No problem with bin collection in the London borough I work in.
> 
> That might be because the waste collection is run in-house rather than by an outside contractor, as so many (including the borough where I live) now are, or it might be because the vast majority of staff are directly employed rather than agency workers with zero job security, as is the case in many councils.
> 
> ...


Presume you are still in Totters & are lucky not to be affected yet but the drivers of the bin lorries might be tempted away to earn more driving something other than a bin lorry. Still all is good with you at the moment so there is not a problem elsewhere? 
"I have no empty shelves what are people moaning about"


----------



## MrSki (Sep 4, 2021)




----------



## andysays (Sep 4, 2021)

MrSki said:


> Presume you are still in Totters & are lucky not to be affected yet but the drivers of the bin lorries might be tempted away to earn more driving something other than a bin lorry. Still all is good with you at the moment so there is not a problem elsewhere?
> "I have no empty shelves what are people moaning about"



I realise you struggle to understand actual written argument, but I have never said that as all is good with me there can't be a problem elsewhere.

What I am arguing and will continue to argue is that it's ridiculously simplistic to simply attribute any and all problems to Brexit, as if other aspects of the economy and wider society are somehow irrelevant.

But it's no surprise to see you immediate pop up to completely misrepresent my post as you have done so many times before.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 4, 2021)

Spoiler alert:
Are we nearly at the bit
 when we run out of gravediggers with bodies piling up unburied


----------



## TopCat (Sep 4, 2021)

What's it like to be in the 1% of female lorry drivers?
					

The chronic shortage of lorry drivers has led haulage firms to try to attract more women to the role.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## MrSki (Sep 4, 2021)

andysays said:


> I realise you struggle to understand actual written argument, but I have never said that as all is good with me there can't be a problem elsewhere.
> 
> What I am arguing and will continue to argue is that it's ridiculously simplistic to simply attribute any and all problems to Brexit, as if other aspects of the economy and wider society are somehow irrelevant.
> 
> But it's no surprise to see you immediate pop up to completely misrepresent my post as you have done so many times before.


Thanks for the patronising crap. That really helps.
So when people say 'I know what I voted for' did they mean this shit?
Or is it a case of those who voted against Brexit warned about all this shit & "Project Fear" was banded about? Flu vaccines where I live have been postponed. My elderly mum will get hers but the next two clinics have been postponed. 
Can you or anyone else give a positive of Brexit. This thread is over 200 pages and am still waiting for a proper positive.


----------



## dessiato (Sep 4, 2021)

MrSki said:


> Thanks for the patronising crap. That really helps.
> So when people say 'I know what I voted for' did they mean this shit?
> Or is it a case of those who voted against Brexit warned about all this shit & "Project Fear" was banded about? Flu vaccines where I live have been postponed. My elderly mum will get hers but the next two clinics have been postponed.
> Can you or anyone else give a positive of Brexit. This thread is over 200 pages and am still waiting for a proper positive.


Liked for the request for a tangible Brexit positive. I've asked here and other places this same question and have yet to receive an answer. There really isn't one, is there?


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 4, 2021)

MrSki said:


> Thanks for the patronising crap. That really helps.
> So when people say 'I know what I voted for' did they mean this shit?
> Or is it a case of those who voted against Brexit warned about all this shit & "Project Fear" was banded about? Flu vaccines where I live have been postponed. My elderly mum will get hers but the next two clinics have been postponed.
> Can you or anyone else give a positive of Brexit. This thread is over 200 pages and am still waiting for a proper positive.


A proper positive? Is the sidelining of Nigel farage and marginalisation of ukip not good enough for you?


----------



## Yossarian (Sep 4, 2021)

MrSki said:


> Can you or anyone else give a positive of Brexit. This thread is over 200 pages and am still waiting for a proper positive.



I'd say it's a benefit if a shortage of workers has spurred the government to step up efforts to help unemployed and underemployed people retrain as HGV drivers etc., though of course there was nothing stopping the Tory cunts doing that before Brexit.


----------



## andysays (Sep 4, 2021)

MrSki said:


> Thanks for the patronising crap. That really helps.
> So when people say 'I know what I voted for' did they mean this shit?
> Or is it a case of those who voted against Brexit warned about all this shit & "Project Fear" was banded about? Flu vaccines where I live have been postponed. My elderly mum will get hers but the next two clinics have been postponed.
> Can you or anyone else give a positive of Brexit. This thread is over 200 pages and am still waiting for a proper positive.


I never said "I know what I voted for" or suggested there wouldn't be any short term fallout.

If you don't accept what I've written about the complex reasons why these problems are occuring now, maybe this illustration from the article TopCat just posted will help.



Although Brexit is cited as one of the reasons, there are also many others.


----------



## Raheem (Sep 4, 2021)

andysays said:


> I realise you struggle to understand actual written argument, but I have never said that as all is good with me there can't be a problem elsewhere.
> 
> What I am arguing and will continue to argue is that it's ridiculously simplistic to simply attribute any and all problems to Brexit, as if other aspects of the economy and wider society are somehow irrelevant.
> 
> But it's no surprise to see you immediate pop up to completely misrepresent my post as you have done so many times before.


It's not Brexit that's the problem per se. Would have been fine if they had done it somewhere other than Britain.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 4, 2021)

andysays said:


> I never said "I know what I voted for" or suggested there wouldn't be any short term fallout.
> 
> If you don't accept what I've written about the complex reasons why these problems are occuring now, maybe this illustration from the article TopCat just posted will help.
> 
> ...


tbf, that graphic raises as many questions as it offers clarity on the relative import of the factors. 
One obvious deficiency being that we don't know whether or not the 55% of hauliers citing Brexit as a cause happen to include all of the larger employers etc.


----------



## MrSki (Sep 4, 2021)

andysays said:


> I never said "I know what I voted for" or suggested there wouldn't be any short term fallout.
> 
> If you don't accept what I've written about the complex reasons why these problems are occuring now, maybe this illustration from the article TopCat just posted will help.
> 
> ...


So is short term fall out 50 years? 
Brexit is one of the reasons & it was even stupider to go ahead with it in the middle of a pandemic. 
What wonderful benefits have you felt & do you feel that West Green Road is full of happier peeps since Brexit?


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 4, 2021)

MrSki said:


> So is short term fall out 50 years?
> Brexit is one of the reasons & it was even stupider to go ahead with it in the middle of a pandemic.
> What wonderful benefits have you felt & do you feel that West Green Road is full of happier peeps since Brexit?


Please don't use the phrase 'peeps'


----------



## andysays (Sep 4, 2021)

brogdale said:


> tbf, that graphic raises as many questions as it offers clarity on the relative import of the factors.
> One obvious deficiency being that we don't know whether or not the 55% of hauliers citing Brexit as a cause happen to include all of the larger employers etc.


Sure, I'm just making the point that there are many reasons, and even the members of the Road Haulage Association recognise that.

We don't have to accept or agree on the percentages to understand that the issue is more complex than simply Brexit.


----------



## Yossarian (Sep 4, 2021)

This thread is another benefit of Brexit - I find the endless, mildly ill-tempered sparring over granular details of a trade pact an almost soothing distraction from the more important and more terrifying issues like climate change and the long-term effects of COVID infection.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 4, 2021)

andysays said:


> Sure, I'm just making the point that there are many reasons, and even the members of the Road Haulage Association recognise that.
> 
> We don't have to accept or agree on the percentages to understand that the issue is more complex than simply Brexit.


In truth, there are just 3 strands cited there; 2 exogenous factors Brexit, Covid and the issues created by the hauliers' own decisions on pay and conditions.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 4, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> This thread is another benefit of Brexit - I find the endless, mildly ill-tempered sparring over granular details of a trade pact an almost soothing distraction from the more important and more terrifying issues like climate change and the long-term effects of COVID infection.


What keeps me engaged is witnessing the almost religious devotion of the Brexit loyalists and their desire to defend the holy relic from any infidel criticism.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 4, 2021)

brogdale said:


> What keeps me engaged is witnessing the almost religious devotion of the Brexit loyalists and their desire to defend the holy relic from any infidel criticism.


I wonder how long it will be before people trade for proper brexit relics eg Nigel farage's tibia or skull or Boris Johnson's ulna


----------



## andysays (Sep 4, 2021)

brogdale said:


> In truth, there are just 3 strands cited there; 2 exogenous factors Brexit, Covid and the issues created by the hauliers' own decisions on pay and conditions.


And I would argue that the size of both the Brexit effect and the Covid effect are greater than they would have been had the hauliers made different/better decisions about pay and conditions over the years, especially knowing since 2016 that Brexit would likely make some difference.

ETA this goes for employers in various other industries as well. Hauliers are just one example.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 4, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> I wonder how long it will be before people trade for proper brexit relics eg Nigel farage's tibia or skull or Boris Johnson's ulna


Mebbe, Farage's phalanges, Johnson's jaw and Hoey's hip.....  

new game!


----------



## andysays (Sep 4, 2021)

brogdale said:


> What keeps me engaged is witnessing the almost religious devotion of the Brexit loyalists and their desire to defend the holy relic from any infidel criticism.


Out of interest, who on this thread do you think is doing that?

I don't care what some of the posters on the thread think, but I'd be concerned if you included me in that, because it genuinely isn't my intention to come across that way.


----------



## MrSki (Sep 4, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Please don't use the phrase 'peeps'


Noted.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 4, 2021)

andysays said:


> Out of interest, who on this thread do you think is doing that?
> 
> I don't care what some of the posters on the thread think, but I'd be concerned if you included me in that, because it genuinely isn't my intention to come across that way.


You do appear to be among those who's knee-jerk reactions are defensive of the project.
But that's just my perception, and I'm not Brexit loyal.


----------



## Yossarian (Sep 4, 2021)

brogdale said:


> What keeps me engaged is witnessing the almost religious devotion of the Brexit loyalists and their desire to defend the holy relic from any infidel criticism.



The transition from "shortages are fake news" to "shortages are a victory for the workers" was impressively smooth, tbf.


----------



## bimble (Sep 4, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> The transition from "shortages are fake news" to "shortages are a victory for the workers" was impressively smooth, tbf.


Shortages are not caused by brexit, however any rising wages related to said shortages those are caused by brexit.


----------



## andysays (Sep 4, 2021)

brogdale said:


> You do appear to be among those who's knee-jerk reactions are defensive of the project.
> But that's just my perception, and I'm not Brexit loyal.


OK, it's worth hearing that from someone I consider a worthwhile poster, even if I don't always agree with you.

Maybe it comes across that way because much of my posting is in response to what appears to me to be idiotic and simplistic blaming of Brexit for everything. 

I will try to take that on board in the future...


----------



## MrSki (Sep 4, 2021)

andysays said:


> Out of interest, who on this thread do you think is doing that?
> 
> I don't care what some of the posters on the thread think, but I'd be concerned if you included me in that, because it genuinely isn't my intention to come across that way.


That is very kind of you.
So I am going to ask you the simple question... What have been the benefits of Brexit?


----------



## MrSki (Sep 4, 2021)

andysays said:


> OK, it's worth hearing that from someone I consider a worthwhile poster, even if I don't always agree with you.


You cunt.


----------



## andysays (Sep 4, 2021)

MrSki said:


> That is very kind of you.
> So I am going to ask you the simple question... What have been the benefits of Brexit?


In case I haven't already made it clear, you are one of the posters on this thread whose opinions I don't care about, and I'm not interested in engaging with your simplistic twaddle.

And your repeated references to the area where I live are beginning to look a bit creepy now, BTW.


----------



## Yossarian (Sep 4, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> I wonder how long it will be before people trade for proper brexit relics eg Nigel farage's tibia or skull or Boris Johnson's ulna



If you think these bones have resale value I suggest you extract them now instead of  waiting to see what the penguins leave behind.


----------



## bimble (Sep 4, 2021)

andysays said:


> I never said "I know what I voted for" or suggested there wouldn't be any short term fallout.



When you talk about ‘short term fallout’ do you have in mind a couple of years sort of thing?
After which you hope or expect that some particular things will be better than they were / would have been without brexit?


----------



## MrSki (Sep 4, 2021)

andysays said:


> In case I haven't already made it clear, you are one of the posters on this thread whose opinions I don't care about, and I'm not interested in engaging with your simplistic twaddle.
> 
> And your repeated references to the area where I live are beginning to look a bit creepy now, BTW.


Oh dear you have ruined my weekend. Can't come up with an answer so sulks off. 
Simplistic twaddle? or can't come up with a long list of benefits?

The area you live in was somewhere I lived in too for a number of years but I have only referred to Totters & West Green Road twice so don't make it out as though I am stalking you. 
Please answer the simple question & feel free to put me on ignore.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Sep 4, 2021)

brogdale said:


> What keeps me engaged is witnessing the almost religious devotion of the Brexit loyalists


Here and elsewhere a lot of people appear not to be able to distinguish supporting the idea of the UK leaving the EU (which as a standalone idea does have merit, even if I don't personally agree with it) with supporting _this particular way_ of leaving the EU, which is an absolute shitshow and _was always going to be_.


----------



## ska invita (Sep 4, 2021)

As people keep asking about the benefits of brexit , and the thread on that topic got locked (lol) im reposting/rephrasing this;

1. *Reform of the common agricultural policy *could have huge implications for land use/especially rewilding/increasing biodiversity
could also put a lot of farmers out of action, particularly animal farmers (inc fishers) - much as i sympathise with anyone losing their way of life and work, i see that as a long-term good thing for society

2.* The ability of government to subsidise/nationalise via state aid laws*
this has yet to be tested against the withdrawal agreement - if something was nationalised that then sold to the EU there might be some offset/trade dispute. maybe not
how much this was ever practically an issue when the UK was in the EU is disputed as it was barely ever tested, nonetheless...

3. *Break up the united kingdom -* bit unintended, could have been avoided without all the endless Tory South East-centric governments, but looks like too late for that now. Independent nations makes for better democracy and will be a sharp kick to the english establishment

4. *Not being part of an apparently ever closer political, economic, diplomatic and military union within the EU* is a really good one, though it is far from certain what the near future of the EU is . Good reason to believe it is going to continue to centralise.
A layer of unelected bureaucracy has been removed, and a bureaucracy with a neoliberal agenda and power at that.
Its got to be good for democracy, even if it feels abstract

5. *Shortages can have some benefits.* The capitalist-consumption model the UK is built on needs binning.
The UK establishment is expert at maintaining and deepening the status quo. Anything that puts spanners in the works of that creates opportunities for change - opportunities that are routinely normally blocked off.
I give no shits about milkshakes and crisp shortages, but clearly this becomes a matter of life and death when flu vaccines and care workers are under threat. Having to have faith in the Tories to resolve these issue and quickly is scary.

My scepticism with all the above - now and before the vote - is that while it creates room for improvements, it also creates room for things to get worse, and that massive nationalistic boost Brexit has given the Tories further entrenching them in power + sinking the Labour Left means there's every reason to fear things getting worse.

We are where we are though, and crisis - such as Covid - can lead to opportunity to positively reform society. There's a lot to play for right now, and rather than wishing we never left the EU and pushing that narrative, it would be better to try and push wedges into where those gaps have opened up and concentrate on that. I'm sick to death of the status quo, and while I dont believe Things Cant Get Any Worse - they clearly can - at least there's _some_ kind of change happening and opportunities for deeper change to come.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 4, 2021)

ska invita said:


> As people keep asking about the benefits of brexit , and the thread on that topic got locked (lol) im reposting/rephrasing this;
> 
> 1. *Reform of the common agricultural policy *could have huge implications for land use/especially rewilding/increasing biodiversity
> could also put a lot of farmers out of action, particularly animal farmers (inc fishers) - much as i sympathise with anyone losing their way of life and work, i see that as a long-term good thing for society
> ...


None of that will improve anyone's everyday life.

Independent nations make for better democracy? What, like the United States you mean?


----------



## ska invita (Sep 4, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Independent nations make for better democracy? What, like the United States you mean?


The smaller the democratic unit, the better


----------



## ska invita (Sep 4, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> None of that will improve anyone's everyday life.


potentially lots of improvements, to the environment, to the nature of work and to democracy
potentially not though


----------



## brogdale (Sep 4, 2021)

andysays said:


> OK, it's worth hearing that from someone I consider a worthwhile poster, even if I don't always agree with you.
> 
> Maybe it comes across that way because much of my posting is in response to what appears to me to be idiotic and simplistic blaming of Brexit for everything.
> 
> I will try to take that on board in the future...


Honestly mate, don't do anything on my account; I completely get that for most folk this was and is a binary and you're one one side or the other.

I'm just in that odd little sect who never had a dog in the fight and don't believe that tinkering (or not) with our constitutional arrangements or trading focus will ever change anything of any substance for working people.


----------



## ska invita (Sep 4, 2021)

brogdale said:


> I'm just in that odd little sect who never had a dog in the fight and don't believe that tinkering (or not) with our constitutional arrangements or trading focus will ever change anything of any substance for working people.


depends on your meaning of substance, but its already changing things, and will continue to do so, all the more so when the full regulationary system kicks in
the question is will it on balance make thing better or worse, and what can be done to shape that
i fear the deregulation the Tories no doubt have in their pockets - that is a potential substantial change
oppositely it might well create opportunities for workers to exert power...substantially...the status quo around work has never looked as fragile to me as in this period of covid+ Brexit


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Sep 4, 2021)

ska invita said:


> As people keep asking about the benefits of brexit , and the thread on that topic got locked (lol) im reposting/rephrasing this;
> 
> 1. *Reform of the common agricultural policy *could have huge implications for land use/especially rewilding/increasing biodiversity
> could also put a lot of farmers out of action, particularly animal farmers (inc fishers) - much as i sympathise with anyone losing their way of life and work, i see that as a long-term good thing for society
> ...


1 - Farmers losing their livelihoods is a good thing. Riiiiight.

2 - You are aware of who's in charge here, yeah?

3 - Hmmmm

4 - Fair enough. I can understand this argument, but don't personally agree with it.

5 - Get real. Nothing is going to change. Global capitalism isn't going anywhere.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Sep 4, 2021)

ska invita said:


> it might well create opportunities for workers to exert power...substantially...


This is a fantasy I'm afraid.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 4, 2021)

Having said that I have no dog in the fight, I've always understood the motivation for nationalist and free-market fundamentalists to agitate for exit from the regulation and shared sovereignty of the suprastate, but the so-called Lexit guff has always left me scratching my head.


----------



## ska invita (Sep 4, 2021)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> 1 - Farmers losing their livelihoods is a good thing. Riiiiight.
> 
> 2 - You are aware of who's in charge here, yeah?
> 
> ...


1. Yes, sorry but animal farming has to stop.
2. yes, i made my cyncicism of it clear
3. mmm
4. x
5. global capitalism isnt going anywhere, but conditions within it are continuously changing


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Sep 4, 2021)

brogdale said:


> the so-called Lexit guff has always left me scratching my head.


I get the concept of a "Lexit" and could support it, but I just can't fathom how anyone with even the slightest idea of what's going on in the world right now could possibly think it was/is in any way going to happen


----------



## ska invita (Sep 4, 2021)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> This is a fantasy I'm afraid.



yesterdays fantasy is tomorrows utopia!
in case its not clear, im deeply sceptical about any of this, i didnt vote in the referendum, but im trying to answer the question about benefits of brexit impartially. history doesnt stand still


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Sep 4, 2021)

ska invita said:


> 5. global capitalism isnt going anywhere, but conditions within it are continuously changing


The pawns on the board might be getting moved around (and sacrificed), but the kings and queens at the back are firmly entrenched...


----------



## ska invita (Sep 4, 2021)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> the kings and queens at the back are firmly entrenched...











						Britain’s plan for when Queen Elizabeth II dies
					

POLITICO has obtained documents laying out Operation LONDON BRIDGE in granular detail.




					www.politico.eu


----------



## ska invita (Sep 4, 2021)

...my list of potential negatives is a lot longer tbh


----------



## Elpenor (Sep 4, 2021)

I’m in Teignbridge, one of the places with delays to bin collections, and they’ve just come on a Saturday as they have every week following a bank holiday.


----------



## gosub (Sep 4, 2021)

brogdale said:


> What keeps me engaged is witnessing the almost religious devotion of the Brexit loyalists and their desire to defend the holy relic from any infidel criticism.


Hasn't read like that to me


----------



## brogdale (Sep 4, 2021)

gosub said:


> Hasn't read like that to me


But which side are you on?


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 4, 2021)

ska invita said:


> The smaller the democratic unit, the better


Yeh nations are a right small democratic unit


----------



## gosub (Sep 4, 2021)

brogdale said:


> But which side are you on?


I've been a critic of the EU on these boards  for over 20years. Voted leave.


----------



## ska invita (Sep 4, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Yeh nations are a right small democratic unit


the four nations of the UK are smaller units than the UK in total. Is my meaning really not clear to you?


----------



## andysays (Sep 4, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Honestly mate, don't do anything on my account; I completely get that for most folk this was and is a binary and you're one one side or the other.
> 
> I'm just in that odd little sect who never had a dog in the fight and don't believe that tinkering (or not) with our constitutional arrangements or trading focus will ever change anything of any substance for working people.


OK, I obviously *do* have a dog in the fight, but I genuinely don't want to come across as "Brexit right or wrong".

I'd still hope we (or at least some of us) can have a genuine and productive discussion about how we all deal with the challenges Brexit has thrown up, however we voted (or didn't) five years ago.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 4, 2021)

andysays said:


> OK, I obviously *do* have a dog in the fight, but I genuinely don't want to come across as "Brexit right or wrong".
> 
> I'd still hope we (or at least some of us) can have a genuine and productive discussion about how we all deal with the challenges Brexit has thrown up, however we voted (or didn't) five years ago.


Sure thing, Andy.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 4, 2021)

ska invita said:


> the four nations of the UK are smaller units than the UK in total. Is my meaning really not clear to you?


I don't see how a smaller unit is more democratic than a larger one. You think the six counties is more democratic than say England? You're having a laugh. Loads of dubious shit goes on in local authorities, which are quite as corrupt in their own way as larger units. I don't see more democracy in Scotland or Wales, just the same 'cross a box' every few years. Where is this more democracy?


----------



## brogdale (Sep 4, 2021)

gosub said:


> I've been a critic of the EU on these boards  for over 20years. Voted leave.


No surprise, then, that you've struggled to perceive any knee-jerk defence of Brexit (right or wrong)?


----------



## andysays (Sep 4, 2021)

bimble said:


> When you talk about ‘short term fallout’ do you have in mind a couple of years sort of thing?
> After which you hope or expect that some particular things will be better than they were / would have been without brexit?


Yes, that's the time period i'm talking about.

I hope that in the medium term some things will be significantly better than they were / would have been, but that still depends on what people as active participants do. 

If everyone simply wallows in post-Brexit despair, the shitness of it all will become a self-fulfilling prophecy, a result which some on this thread (not you, to be fair) would appear to welcome.


----------



## gosub (Sep 4, 2021)

brogdale said:


> No surprise, then, that you've struggled to perceive any knee-jerk defence of Brexit (right or wrong)?



As I said hasn't read like that to me.

Anyway busy day, stuff to do.


----------



## ska invita (Sep 4, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> I don't see how a smaller unit is more democratic than a larger one. You think the six counties is more democratic than say England? You're having a laugh. Loads of dubious shit goes on in local authorities, which are quite as corrupt in their own way as larger units. I don't see more democracy in Scotland or Wales, just the same 'cross a box' every few years. Where is this more democracy?


I tend to talk in generalisations and think in them too - thats just me, i doubt that will ever change 
i stand by the general sentiment, imperfect though it may be

For example, because the uk government in encamped in the SE of England it particularly fails to represent areas beyond the SE of England
I want to see the six counties independent of the UK  precisely for the reason you seem to think contradicts what I am saying. The six counties is not an independent political unit - if only it was. 
Achieving a pure and ideal condition of direct democracy - if such a thing can really exist at national levels - IMO means moving ever closer to a democratic model that is as localised as possible.


----------



## Smangus (Sep 4, 2021)

andysays said:


> Yes, that's the time period i'm talking about.
> 
> I hope that in the medium term some things will be significantly better than they were / would have been, but that still depends on what people as active participants do.
> 
> If everyone simply wallows in post-Brexit despair, the shitness of it all will become a self-fulfilling prophecy, a result which some on this thread (not you, to be fair) would appear to welcome.



Some things will be better, some things will be worse. The question is which will outweigh which. Too early to say really I think, apart from some obvious changes which might be early but not longlasting, nobody really knows. Covid has muddied the waters somewhat too. 3-5 years will show us what it will look like longer term I think.


----------



## Badgers (Sep 4, 2021)

> What made Britain a failing state? The simple answer is: Brexit did. One of history’s most colossal, profoundly stupid, self-destructive mistakes. Britain’s running out of beer. The more complicated answer, though, goes like this. The obsessive ideological fixation of a string of the most spectacularly incompetent governments a rich country’s had in post-war history. An obsession with scapegoating Europe — a friend, ally, and partner — for Britain’s very own shortcomings and mistakes. Austerity, for over a decade, while a propaganda campaign was put in place, to blame Europe for Britain growing poorer.











						How Brexit Britain Became a Failing State
					

Brexit Britain is Running Short of Everything, From Beer to Blood Tests. This is What it Means to Become a Failing State




					eand.co


----------



## bimble (Sep 5, 2021)

Thinking about timescales, we haven't fully brexited yet even in the most basic way, it will take a long time to reach the end of all the existing grace periods and extensions of extensions etc.
And if / when the existing terms of the withdrawal agreement are finally done, then it will just be endless tetchy renegotiation, for ever,  of the future relationship of Uk with EU, So I don't know when you'd be able to start assessing the difference between before and after.

Even without stuff like that the great Sausage War is back on now & "Boris Johnson and Lord David Frost now have no excuses for not triggering Article 16 and suspending the Northern Ireland Protocol, Brexiteer Baroness Hoey has said.."


----------



## bimble (Sep 5, 2021)

Lord Frost yesterday: 
"Brexit is not a thing in itself. It is not a choice to live in permanent confrontation with our friends and neighbours. Rather it is a first stage, a necessary gateway through which this country had to pass in order to give us freedom, if we make the right choices, to free up and liberalise our economy.."


----------



## bimble (Sep 5, 2021)

Meanwhile, its all a bit confusing in Pig News


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Sep 5, 2021)

Just a friendly reminder that complaints of “labour shortages” by businesses is just code for “we’re going to have to start paying people more and we don’t like it”


----------



## dessiato (Sep 5, 2021)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> Just a friendly reminder that complaints of “labour shortages” by businesses is just code for “we’re going to have to start paying people more and we don’t like it”


Very much this.

If you make anything attractive enough people will want it/to do it. Whether that is economic is an entirely different question. I can't, for example, imagine a price that would make me want to spend the day bent over picking strawberries in a field.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 5, 2021)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> Just a friendly reminder that complaints of “labour shortages” by businesses is just code for “we’re going to have to start paying people more and we don’t like it”


True, but that message is not aimed at us; it's to encourage their political wing to "bring more flexibility to supply side issues"...ie. accelerate the mobilisation of the reserve armies by making even more difficult to exist without working.


----------



## Badgers (Sep 5, 2021)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> Just a friendly reminder that complaints of “labour shortages” by businesses is just code for “we’re going to have to start paying people more and we don’t like it”


You would think that our beshitted government would have planned for this and mandated workers rights eh? 

Still, here we are


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 5, 2021)

bimble said:


> Meanwhile, its all a bit confusing in Pig News View attachment 286851
> 
> 
> View attachment 286852


What an excellent name for the mail


----------



## bimble (Sep 5, 2021)

brogdale said:


> True, but that message is not aimed at us; it's to encourage their political wing to "bring more flexibility to supply side issues"...ie. accelerate the mobilisation of the reserve armies by making even more difficult to exist without working.


Even with the 'best' will in the world, they'd have to not only force people to train as butchers but also force them to move across the country to where the butchers jobs are. Not saying they won't try it.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 5, 2021)

bimble said:


> Even with the 'best' will in the world, they'd have to not only force people to train as butchers but also force them to move across the country to where the butchers jobs are. Not saying they won't try it.


Happened before; remember Tebbit's father "who (didn't riot) but got on his bike to look for work".


----------



## gosub (Sep 5, 2021)

Badgers said:


> How Brexit Britain Became a Failing State
> 
> 
> Brexit Britain is Running Short of Everything, From Beer to Blood Tests. This is What it Means to Become a Failing State
> ...


But we are joining a trading block ...that Pacific thing.

I don't disagree entirely with that article, wanted a Brexit that kept us in Single Market , but hey ho.  but it doesn't acknowledge EU was far more than a trading block


----------



## TopCat (Sep 5, 2021)

The meat processing industry had some of the highest rates of covid infection in the UK. Add to that awful working conditions and shit pay. 

No surprise workers would rather work elsewhere.


----------



## bimble (Sep 5, 2021)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> Just a friendly reminder that complaints of “labour shortages” by businesses is just code for “we’re going to have to start paying people more and we don’t like it”


Just taking the example of the pigs problem though, lets say you were a total bastard of a farm owner who had 100,000 big fat pigs and had to choose right now between:
a) destroying them in a fire (zero profit presumably, instead a big loss cos you've fed them etc) and
b) offering good wages for the butchers you'd need in order to sell them (some profit) ,
what would you do. I don't think they are going to do a bonfire of the pigs because they haven't considered offering better wages i think its cos there just are not, currently right now, enough people in the country with the necessary skills.


----------



## TopCat (Sep 5, 2021)

I tend to think these type of articles are bullshit anyway and are just appeals to protect the companies profits.


----------



## dessiato (Sep 5, 2021)

bimble said:


> Even with the 'best' will in the world, they'd have to not only force people to train as butchers but also force them to move across the country to where the butchers jobs are. Not saying they won't try it.


To an extent I have no issue with this. It's when people are forced to do it, to take jobs they'd otherwise not want, and to do it without help to move, that I take great issue with it.


----------



## Yossarian (Sep 5, 2021)

It's another industry that's turned to prison labour - they also tried to recruit former squaddies but there apparently wasn't much interest.









						Prisoners to plug worker shortage in meat industry
					

Meat industry leaders tell the BBC the government is "keen" to link up businesses with inmates.



					www.bbc.com


----------



## brogdale (Sep 5, 2021)

Can see that the geographical immobility of the incarcarated workforce might limit their exploitation, unless temporary work-camps are set up close to the factories. Obviously the camps would have to be very well securitised and guarded.


----------



## dessiato (Sep 5, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Can see that the geographical immobility of the incarcarated workforce might limit their exploitation, unless temporary work-camps are set up close to the factories. Obviously the camps would have to be very well securitised and guarded.


You could also make the criminals wear special identification markers.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Sep 5, 2021)

gosub said:


> But we are joining a trading block ...that Pacific thing.
> 
> I don't disagree entirely with that article, wanted a Brexit that kept us in Single Market , but hey ho.  but it doesn't acknowledge EU was far more than a trading block



Nothing like doing business further away in the middle of a climate meltdown.

Though it's quite amusing seeing the trans Pacific thing bigged up by eager leave politicians when it's also a mechanism to degrade sovereignty and arbitrate trade.

The new agreement is slightly better than the original TPP but now the US is back to biden we'll see how long that lasts.


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 5, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Can see that the geographical immobility of the incarcarated workforce might limit their exploitation, unless temporary work-camps are set up close to the factories. Obviously the camps would have to be very well securitised and guarded.


They are early release category so low risk and are due to leave to go back into society.


----------



## Supine (Sep 5, 2021)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> Just a friendly reminder that complaints of “labour shortages” by businesses is just code for “we’re going to have to start paying people more and we don’t like it”



Just a friendly reminder that statements like this over simplify a sometimes complex problem. It can take years to educate people appropriately for many jobs so throwing cash around isn’t always a quick fix.


----------



## Yossarian (Sep 5, 2021)

Friendly reminder that nobody likes the phrase friendly reminder.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 5, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> They are early release category so low risk and are due to leave to go back into society.


Indeed; so both the geography and scale of this as a solution to capital's recruitment issues are limited. Sounds more like Tory 'virtue-signalling' to its core (get the felons working hard for a change) than an effective response to the wage shortage.


----------



## MysteryGuest (Sep 5, 2021)

Or to be precise



Yossarian said:


> Friendly reminder that _checks notes_ nobody likes the phrase friendly reminder.


----------



## Yossarian (Sep 5, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> They are early release category so low risk and are due to leave to go back into society.



I'm all for retraining and employing former prisoners, as  mentioned upthread, but I think the physically and psychologically taxing nature of slaughterhouse work is such that nobody should be compelled to go into it - it's got one of the highest workplace injury rates of any job and many workers end up with PTSD.


----------



## andysays (Sep 5, 2021)

TopCat said:


> The meat processing industry had some of the highest rates of covid infection in the UK. Add to that awful working conditions and shit pay.
> 
> No surprise workers would rather work elsewhere.


And the high rates of Covid infection, awful working conditions and shit pay were all based on practices utterly dependent on the highly exploitative use of workers from poorer EU countries.


----------



## philosophical (Sep 5, 2021)

bimble said:


> Lord Frost yesterday:
> "Brexit is not a thing in itself. It is not a choice to live in permanent confrontation with our friends and neighbours. Rather it is a first stage, a necessary gateway through which this country had to pass in order to give us freedom, if we make the right choices, to free up and liberalise our economy.."



Lord Frost is talking bollocks. There is always total ‘freedom’, which in itself is a meaningless concept.
What we have in life are restrictions, what Rousseau would call chains. Many accepted voluntarily, like the social contract that we ought not to murder someone, or that we contribute taxes for the greater good.
Greater freedom is defined by less restrictions, it is not a sunny upland of abundance provided without effort by some kind of faceless Dharma initiative.
Try asking Brexit voters what restrictions they suffered under pre 2016.
Try asking what was beneficial by being a member of the EU, like being able to live, learn, work and travel throughout the EU.
Lord Frost is simply another dreary Brexit cunt.


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 5, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Indeed; so both the geography and scale of this as a solution to capital's recruitment issues are limited. Sounds more like Tory 'virtue-signalling' to its core (get the felons working hard for a change) than an effective response to the wage shortage.


The early release scheme for work has been around for years ,.It was cut back for a while but has been expanded , so there are always going to be those completing their sentences working in the community.

However reliance on such schemes isn't sustainable for most businesses, it's just another short term bodge/quick fix. Industry has had five years to prepare for Brexit , albeit no one saw  Covid coming which has been a big factor as well in changing labour supply.  However as the head of the  British Meat Processors Association was quoted ( you could substitute any of the employers organisations for them tbh )   "“The Government has got to do something really quickly,” he said. “We need a quick fix – we understand longer term that we all have to adapt, and either mechanise or get British labour doing these jobs, but in this immediate short-term, on the back of COVID, we can’t do it. Without the short-term fix, there’ll be long-term damage.”





Yossarian said:


> I'm all for retraining and employing former prisoners, as  mentioned upthread, but I think the physically and psychologically taxing nature of slaughterhouse work is such that nobody should be compelled to go into it - it's got one of the highest workplace injury rates of any job and many workers end up with PTSD.


Absolutely and as far as I am aware no one is compelled, there are entirely due to covid and Brexit lots of demand from other industries for staff . So the idea that its either sit in a cell or work on meat processing isn't the reality. Cheffing is is a popular early release occupation.


----------



## philosophical (Sep 5, 2021)

andysays said:


> Yes, that's the time period i'm talking about.
> 
> I hope that in the medium term some things will be significantly better than they were / would have been, but that still depends on what people as active participants do.
> 
> If everyone simply wallows in post-Brexit despair, the shitness of it all will become a self-fulfilling prophecy, a result which some on this thread (not you, to be fair) would appear to welcome.


 I would welcome more and more shitiness in the UK as a result of Brexit. Maybe not exactly welcome it, but look on shitness as a form of ’I told you so’ to shove in the face of the cunts who voted Brexit. Bleak satisfaction, but there you go.


----------



## nogojones (Sep 5, 2021)

bimble said:


> Meanwhile, its all a bit confusing in Pig News View attachment 286851
> 
> 
> View attachment 286852


I thought all the ballet dancers retrained as butchers during the pandemic?


----------



## Yossarian (Sep 5, 2021)

philosophical said:


> I would welcome more and more shitiness in the UK as a result of Brexit. Maybe not exactly welcome it, but look on shitness as a form of ’I told you so’ to shove in the face of the cunts who voted Brexit. Bleak satisfaction, but there you go.



Yeah, good luck with the happily wallowing in shit - don't you normally post on the other thread?


----------



## gosub (Sep 5, 2021)

nogojones said:


> I thought all the ballet dancers retrained as butchers during the pandemic?


no they were told their next job might be in cyber.



The Butcher thing, this is one area (of a couple) I do think Dr Richard North on EUreferendum does have useful insight as his doctorate is Environmental Health


----------



## philosophical (Sep 5, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> Yeah, good luck with the happily wallowing in shit - don't you normally post on the other thread?



Which other thread?


----------



## Yossarian (Sep 5, 2021)

philosophical said:


> Which other thread?











						The big Brexit thread - news, updates and discussion
					

Now the the UK has 'left' the supra-state, perhaps it's time to move onto a new thread considering the negotiations to establish a new trading relationship with the 27?  Of course, the opening gambits will be negotiating positions, but did we expect the right party of capital to come out so...




					www.urban75.net


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## philosophical (Sep 5, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> The big Brexit thread - news, updates and discussion
> 
> 
> Now the the UK has 'left' the supra-state, perhaps it's time to move onto a new thread considering the negotiations to establish a new trading relationship with the 27?  Of course, the opening gambits will be negotiating positions, but did we expect the right party of capital to come out so...
> ...



Yes, I tend to post haphazardly on whatever Brexit thread. In the main I have two strands, the Irish border, and saying that Brexit voters are cunts.
Funnily enough in the five years since the vote the Irish border question remains a problem, and if anything Brexit voters I encounter have become even greater cunts than they were before.


----------



## andysays (Sep 5, 2021)

philosophical said:


> I would welcome more and more shitiness in the UK as a result of Brexit. Maybe not exactly welcome it, but look on shitness as a form of ’I told you so’ to shove in the face of the cunts who voted Brexit. Bleak satisfaction, but there you go.


That's *exactly* what I was referring to.

Thank you for popping up on cue to confirm it


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Sep 5, 2021)

Supine said:


> Just a friendly reminder that statements like this over simplify a sometimes complex problem. It can take years to educate people appropriately for many jobs so throwing cash around isn’t always a quick fix.



That’s true. But sometimes you’ve got to shake the tree to get apples, and a few of those apples will get bruised.


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## The39thStep (Sep 5, 2021)

Supine said:


> Just a friendly reminder that statements like this over simplify a sometimes complex problem. It can take years to educate people appropriately for many jobs so throwing cash around isn’t always a quick fix.


So what would you propose to overcome this in the mid to long term?


----------



## philosophical (Sep 5, 2021)

andysays said:


> That's *exactly* what I was referring to.
> 
> Thank you for popping up on cue to confirm it


You’re welcome.
I would start to be persuaded by brexiters to try to be more positive if they explained how you formally manage the land border in Ireland between two different systems without causing strife on the island.
The Brexit vote applied to the whole of the UK.
However I am not inclined to lift a finger to make things work post Brexit that is true. I want things to go to shit and will suffer it if it means those who I believe voted Brexit because they are nasty xenophobic cunts suffer too.


----------



## Supine (Sep 5, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> So what would you propose to overcome this in the mid to long term?



I think if you plan to make the uk an unwelcoming place for eu nationals you should have invested heavily in upskilling the uk workforce ahead of time.

Personally I would have preferred to keep the uk open, welcoming and diverse. But my side lost.


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## TopCat (Sep 5, 2021)

philosophical said:


> You’re welcome.
> I would start to be persuaded by brexiters to try to be more positive if they explained how you formally manage the land border in Ireland between two different systems without causing strife on the island.
> The Brexit vote applied to the whole of the UK.
> However I am not inclined to lift a finger to make things work post Brexit that is true. I want things to go to shit and will suffer it if it means those who I believe voted Brexit because they are nasty xenophobic cunts suffer too.


You continue to astound me.


----------



## philosophical (Sep 5, 2021)

TopCat said:


> You continue to astound me.



If you voted Brexit, as I believe you did, then the astonishing effect of what you voted for is permanent.
I am honest in my stance, not trying to play the equivocating everyman of the left who tries to justify the damage caused by the vote. 
I shouldn’t be astonishing you, unless consistency is something you struggle to come to terms with.
If you voted Brexit what did you have in mind at the time for the Irish border, and if you are now in favour of making the best of it, how do you suggest I come to terms with Brexit supporting Jacob Rees Mogg and Marc Francois (fellow Brexit supporters of yours?) beyond surrender?


----------



## gosub (Sep 5, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> I'm all for retraining and employing former prisoners, as  mentioned upthread, but I think the physically and psychologically taxing nature of slaughterhouse work is such that nobody should be compelled to go into it - it's got one of the highest workplace injury rates of any job and many workers end up with PTSD.


Are you having a laugh? If you are going to start improving convicted criminals knife skills, I predict that very shortly after prison service will be the ones with the labour shortage


----------



## extra dry (Sep 5, 2021)

Why the Rolex watch shortage is a 'perfect storm'  thank you brexit and covid!


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## TopCat (Sep 5, 2021)

extra dry said:


> Why the Rolex watch shortage is a 'perfect storm'  thank you brexit and covid!


Poor rich people.


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## TopCat (Sep 5, 2021)

philosophical said:


> If you voted Brexit, as I believe you did, then the astonishing effect of what you voted for is permanent.
> I am honest in my stance, not trying to play the equivocating everyman of the left who tries to justify the damage caused by the vote.
> I shouldn’t be astonishing you, unless consistency is something you struggle to come to terms with.
> If you voted Brexit what did you have in mind at the time for the Irish border, and if you are now in favour of making the best of it, how do you suggest I come to terms with Brexit supporting Jacob Rees Mogg and Marc Francois (fellow Brexit supporters of yours?) beyond surrender?


Bonkers Bruno.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Sep 5, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> This thread is another benefit of Brexit - I find the endless, mildly ill-tempered sparring over granular details of a trade pact an almost soothing distraction from the more important and more terrifying issues like climate change and the long-term effects of COVID infection.



With you on the mildly ill tempered sparring. I’ve spent far too much time doing just that on this thread, distracting myself from work and political stuff they actually matters. Part of the frustration I have is that the remain side don’t seem to have a narrative or a vision or any concrete demands. They just seem content with moaning.


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## philosophical (Sep 5, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Bonkers Bruno.



Do you mean Randolph Luca Bruno, or Bruno Waterfield, or maybe Bruno Le Marie?


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## philosophical (Sep 5, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> With you on the mildly ill tempered sparring. I’ve spent far too much time doing just that on this thread, distracting myself from work and political stuff they actually matters. Part of the frustration I have is that the remain side don’t seem to have a narrative or a vision or any concrete demands. They just seem content with moaning.



The remain side are not required to have a narrative or vision or concrete demands. They lost. It is down to the Brexit side to enact the exact terms of the vote, remainers are at liberty to react.
Although reaction sometimes leads to bonkers personal abuse.


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## Smokeandsteam (Sep 5, 2021)

philosophical said:


> The remain side are not required to have a narrative or vision or concrete demands. They lost. It is down to the Brexit side to enact the exact terms of the vote, remainers are at liberty to react.


If they want any political agency and relevance outside of their bubble they do.


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## Steel Icarus (Sep 5, 2021)

philosophical said:


> The remain side are not required to have a narrative or vision or concrete demands. They lost. It is down to the Brexit side to enact the exact terms of the vote, remainers are at liberty to react.
> Although reaction sometimes leads to bonkers personal abuse.


horseshit


----------



## philosophical (Sep 5, 2021)

If remainers are supposed to make brexit work what are they supposed to do?
It's a bit like a meat eater getting a rump steak and expecting a vegetarian to cook it for them.


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## Supine (Sep 5, 2021)

philosophical said:


> If remainers are supposed to make brexit work what are they supposed to do?
> It's a bit like a meat eater getting a rump steak and expecting a vegetarian to cook it for them.



Nah, brexiteers have cooked the steak and now they are forcing us remainers to eat it while complaining that we aren’t make the best of the situation.


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## The39thStep (Sep 5, 2021)

Supine said:


> I think if you plan to make the uk an unwelcoming place for eu nationals you should have invested heavily in upskilling the uk workforce ahead of time.
> 
> Personally I would have preferred to keep the uk open, welcoming and diverse. But my side lost.


Investing heavily in upskilling the workforce doesn't require making the UK an unwelcoming place for EU nationals .


----------



## TopCat (Sep 5, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Investing heavily in upskilling the workforce doesn't require making the UK an unwelcoming place for EU nationals .


Innit.


----------



## Supine (Sep 5, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Investing heavily in upskilling the workforce doesn't require making the UK an unwelcoming place for EU nationals .



Obviously. I didn’t say it did.


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## TopCat (Sep 5, 2021)

Supine said:


> Obviously. I didn’t say it did.


It’s worth mentioning though. The trade associations are making out its xenophobia etc hampering their profits rather than decades of no investment in the workforce they so desperately need.


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## Supine (Sep 5, 2021)

TopCat said:


> It’s worth mentioning though. The trade associations are making out its xenophobia etc hampering their profits rather than decades of no investment in the workforce they so desperately need.



I really don’t agree with that. After decades of EU free movement we had an integrated international workforce. Brexit showed many EU nationals that they were not wanted in the UK anymore. They left. We now have workforce shortages. Not all brexit voters wanted Europeans to go home but enough did and the message was sent.

Pay and conditions appears to be a brexiteers way of avoiding the blame. Bring up an existing domestic problem to deflect from the fundamental issues brexit has caused.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 5, 2021)

S☼I said:


> horseshit


You're too kind to him


----------



## philosophical (Sep 5, 2021)

Stalker alert.


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## brogdale (Sep 5, 2021)

Supine said:


> I really don’t agree with that. After decades of EU free movement we had an integrated international workforce. Brexit showed many EU nationals that they were not wanted in the UK anymore. They left. We now have workforce shortages. Not all brexit voters wanted Europeans to go home but enough did and the message was sent.
> 
> Pay and conditions appears to be a brexiteers way of avoiding the blame. Bring up an existing domestic problem to deflect from the fundamental issues brexit has caused.


"...integrated international workforce..." is an interesting phrase.

To my mind there is a supply of labour that capital will exploit. Given that a sub-set cohort of that labour supply have, understandably, fucked off, capital and it's political wings will just ensure that 'flexibility' is 'improved' until the threat of the rising cost of labour is neutralised.


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## TopCat (Sep 5, 2021)

brogdale said:


> "...integrated international workforce..." is an interesting phrase.
> 
> To my mind there is a supply of labour that capital will exploit. Given that a sub-set cohort of that labour supply have, understandably, fucked off, capital and it's political wings will just ensure that 'flexibility' is 'improved' until the threat of the rising cost of labour is neutralised.


They can’t at the moment though as furlough ends within four weeks and will likely put half a million uk workers out of work/income. They know they have to let profits get squeezed and inflation rise as the alternatives are too much for them.


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## Pickman's model (Sep 5, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Investing heavily in upskilling the workforce doesn't require making the UK an unwelcoming place for EU nationals .


It's not a necessity but for this government it is very desirable


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 5, 2021)

gosub said:


> Are you having a laugh? If you are going to start improving convicted criminals knife skills, I predict that very shortly after prison service will be the ones with the labour shortage


The prison service does have a labour shortage


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## Supine (Sep 5, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> The prison service does have a labour shortage



Maybe they can employ prisoners to look after prisoners


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## bimble (Sep 5, 2021)

TopCat said:


> They can’t at the moment though as furlough ends within four weeks and will likely put half a million uk workers out of work/income. They know they have to let profits get squeezed and inflation rise as the alternatives are too much for them.


I don’t understand this. Do you mean that within 4 weeks they (business owners) expect to be able to fill their vacancies with the freshly unemployed people ?


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## TopCat (Sep 5, 2021)

bimble said:


> I don’t understand this. Do you mean that within 4 weeks they (business owners) expect to be able to fill their vacancies with the freshly unemployed people ?



The government strongly hope they will and won’t slacken the rules to allow more imported labour until they give it a go. A million on the dole at a stroke would cause a stroke.


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## brogdale (Sep 5, 2021)

TopCat said:


> They can’t at the moment though as furlough ends within four weeks and will likely put half a million uk workers out of work/income. They know they have to let profits get squeezed and inflation rise as the alternatives are too much for them.


No, I didn't mean let EU workers back...that's obviously not politically feasible (yet).
I meant that "_in the national interest_" the tories will just accelerate the hostile environment for those that don't work, and attempt to get more out of those that do.


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## gosub (Sep 5, 2021)

bimble said:


> I don’t understand this. Do you mean that within 4 weeks they (business owners) expect to be able to fill their vacancies with the freshly unemployed people ?


Sounds like they've been Mcinzied you know the our knowledge base  gives the skills to manage any business.. (personally don't think it works lle that - anymore than I think you can confidently reverse an artic with a couple of hours practice)


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## Supine (Sep 5, 2021)

gosub said:


> Sounds like they've been Mcinzied you know the our knowledge base  gives the skills to manage any business.. (personally don't think it works lle that - anymore than I think you can confidently reverse an artic with a couple of hours practice)



I don’t know. I would have thought furloughed Ryan Air staff could move into abattoirs quiet easily


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## angusmcfangus (Sep 5, 2021)

Supine said:


> Obviously. I didn’t say it did.


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## Smokeandsteam (Sep 5, 2021)

TopCat said:


> The government strongly hope they will and won’t slacken the rules to allow more imported labour until they give it a go. A million on the dole at a stroke would cause a stroke.



Problem is this: Two-thirds of the growth in employment from 2010 onwards is accounted for by self-employment, zero-hours contracts and agency work. The number of people living in poverty who are in a working family is 43%. Take the average wage of vacant posts in food distribution - £11.80 per hour. The problem isn’t a lack of workers, it’s a lack of decent work.


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## Humberto (Sep 5, 2021)

Deepening austerity and unrestricted marketisation of the crumbs we have fought for and held or, what was that other option offered?


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## brogdale (Sep 5, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Problem is this: Two-thirds of the growth in employment from 2010 onwards is accounted for by self-employment, zero-hours contracts and agency work. The number of people living in poverty who are in a working family is 43%. Take the average wage of vacant posts in food distribution - £11.80 per hour. The problem isn’t a lack of workers, it’s a lack of decent work.


Yes, the problem is that the neoliberal state is merely a vehicle for transferring wealth from the poor to the rich and subsidising corporate poverty pay with the taxes on labour suits capital just fine.


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## Smokeandsteam (Sep 5, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Yes, the problem is that the neoliberal state is merely a vehicle for transferring wealth from the poor to the rich and subsidising corporate poverty pay with the taxes on labour suits capital just fine.



20% increase in the wealth of billionaires during the pandemic.


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## The39thStep (Sep 5, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> 20% increase in the wealth of billionaires during the pandemic.


but what about higher prices?


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## Artaxerxes (Sep 5, 2021)

Supine said:


> I don’t know. I would have thought furloughed Ryan Air staff could move into abattoirs quiet easily



You can't treat butchering the pigs the same as airline passengers, for one thing butchered meat has standards it must adhere to.


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## brogdale (Sep 5, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> 20% increase in the wealth of billionaires during the pandemic.


Taking back control


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## Maggot (Sep 5, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> So what would you propose to overcome this in the mid to long term?





Smokeandsteam said:


> . Part of the frustration I have is that the remain side don’t seem to have a narrative or a vision or any concrete demands. They just seem content with moaning.


I just love Brexit supporters asking Remainers to solve problems caused by Brexit.


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## brogdale (Sep 5, 2021)

No you’ve done it...they’ll be right back atcha and call you continuity something.


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## Gramsci (Sep 5, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Investing heavily in upskilling the workforce doesn't require making the UK an unwelcoming place for EU nationals .



It has. My Spanish partner feels this. So have several of her EU friends who are sticking it out here.

Plus I have several East European friends who decided to go back to their own countries. As this one changed.

Post Brexit UK is less welcoming place for EU nationals.

Whole run up to referendum made big issue about East European immigration. That somewhow British industry wasnt upskilling workforce due to access to EU workforce. Therefore leaving would force it to upskill. Give better pay and conditions. 

Its Imo naive to now say that upskilling doesn't require UK to be unwelcoming.

Upskilling and investing in UK workforce wasn't stopped by EU.

BTW  how do  you think as Brexit supporter this country post Brexit could be made more welcoming to EU nationals? I'm sure my EU friends would like to now. As this isn't how they feel at this time.

They for example didnt get right to vote in the referendum. Despite living here for five, ten years.


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## Raheem (Sep 6, 2021)

Gramsci said:


> It has. My Spanish partner feels this. So have several of her EU friends who are sticking it out here.


Fair enough, but the UK workforce hasn't actually been particularly "upskilled" since the Brexit vote, and there's not really any sign that it will be. Fucking off EU workers   probably isn't a trade for something positive, just a thing.


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## The39thStep (Sep 6, 2021)

Maggot said:


> I just love Brexit supporters asking Remainers to solve problems caused by Brexit.


Actually, I was responding to Supine's statement  ( who even though I disagree with at least contributes to a discussion rather than just moan) about there being a more complex problem than just wage rises.


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## brogdale (Sep 6, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Actually, I was responding to Supine's statement  ( who even though I disagree with at least contributes to a discussion rather than just moan) about there being a more complex problem than just wage rises.


But, isn't it always the way with majoritarian electoral outcomes; the minority bemoan the outcome imposed by the 'majority'? That's a kind of right to those who perceive the tyranny of the majority...much of these P&P threads feed on that really.
Do you think they're wrong to moan...on a moaning thread?


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## Badgers (Sep 6, 2021)

This is just down to the 2016-2018 pandemic


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## Badgers (Sep 6, 2021)

__





						UK exports suffer huge slump since Brexit vote – Daily Business
					





					dailybusinessgroup.co.uk
				




No doubt Remoaners will not be able to offer a solution to help get teh soverentee back on track 🙄


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## Smokeandsteam (Sep 6, 2021)

Maggot said:


> I just love Brexit supporters asking Remainers to solve problems caused by Brexit.



To clarify three things: I’m not suggesting Remainers solve ‘the problems caused by Brexit’. Talking of which the ‘problems caused by Brexit’ are either illusory, short term, pre-existing structural or political economy matters exacerbated by it or a combination of all of them. Remainer accounts consistently overlook this paradigm and lack seriousness and credibility as a result. 

Finally, if the sum of remain thinking is ‘everything is shit, and it’s all the fault of Brexit’ then it’s going nowhere. At some point someone on your side is going to need to produce a cogent analysis of where things are and what they think should be done about it; starting from the pre-existing order and properly taking into account all of the material factors. A grown up and serious account. No sign of it yet though.


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## Badgers (Sep 6, 2021)

Remain voters like me do blame Covid for a lot of this shit. 

However I put most the blame on our Disgraced Government. A big part of which is Brexit lies and failings..


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## brogdale (Sep 6, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Finally, if the sum of remain thinking is ‘everything is shit, and it’s all the fault of Brexit’ then it’s going nowhere. At some point someone on your side is going to need to produce a cogent analysis of where things are and what they think should be done about it; starting from the pre-existing order and properly taking into account all of the material factors. A grown up and serious account. No sign of it yet though.


Isn't the shouting into the void pretty much explained by the fact, from the remain perspective, we are "going nowhere"? This was a binary outcome which given lifespans etc. is effectively permanent. For those that define themselves politically as being on the losing side of this outcome I really don't see how they can be expected to produce "a cogent analysis"? What is there for them to analyse?


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## bimble (Sep 6, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Problem is this: Two-thirds of the growth in employment from 2010 onwards is accounted for by self-employment, zero-hours contracts and agency work. The number of people living in poverty who are in a working family is 43%. Take the average wage of vacant posts in food distribution - £11.80 per hour. The problem isn’t a lack of workers, it’s a lack of decent work.


If that number goes down, because 'staff shortages' means the shit jobs are replaced by better paying ones, that would mean that brexit's led to a real material benefit and i'd be first in line to eat my big remoaner hat.


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## Supine (Sep 6, 2021)

brogdale said:


> What is there for them to analyse?



How shit it is


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## The39thStep (Sep 6, 2021)

brogdale said:


> But, isn't it always the way with majoritarian electoral outcomes; the minority bemoan the outcome imposed by the 'majority'? That's a kind of right to those who perceive the tyranny of the majority...much of these P&P threads feed on that really.
> Do you think they're wrong to moan...on a moaning thread?


If the right to moan was ever under threat I would defend it. However, I wouldn't go as far as to advocate a position based on   'The philosophers have only interpreted the world, in various ways. The point, however, is to moan about it.'


----------



## brogdale (Sep 6, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> If the right to moan was ever under threat I would defend it. However, I wouldn't go as far as to advocate a position based on   'The philosophers have only interpreted the world, in various ways. The point, however, is to moan about it.'


This isn't philosophy, though.


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## bimble (Sep 6, 2021)

i disagree with the whole framing of people as defined by how they voted in 2016, we all (well some of us) live here, so it's in all our interests to try to think of ways to make it not just shit.
Looks to me like the whole thing is a sort of experiment in reversing a small part of globalisation, which it is possible to see ways in which it _could _have upsides, but as always its not the Idea of brexit we are dealing with any more but this particular bungled version led by these particular arseholes that is actually happening.


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## Smokeandsteam (Sep 6, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Isn't the shouting into the void pretty much explained by the fact, from the remain perspective, we are "going nowhere"? This was a binary outcome which given lifespans etc. is effectively permanent. For those that define themselves politically as being on the losing side of this outcome I really don't see how they can be expected to produce "a cogent analysis"? What is there for them to analyse?



But that’s not true though is it. There are massive questions: what will a post neo-liberal Britain look like, climate questions, the post Brexit economy and work etc etc. Much of Remain seems stuck, unable to move beyond its defeat and wanting to replay the game over and again. A cogent analysis doesn’t mean it ‘has to fix Brexit’. It means accepting the result and engaging with now rather than trying to shoehorn every issue in the lens of 2016


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## bimble (Sep 6, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> what will a post neo-liberal Britain look like


you think this is made more likely by the outcome of the referendum?


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## Smokeandsteam (Sep 6, 2021)

bimble said:


> you think this is made more likely by the outcome of the referendum?


I think globalisation is visibly failed as an economic system. America is already beginning to think about the future. Globalisation's expansionist drive is unsustainable politically (as the rise of populist revolts everywhere shows) and also economically (global supply chain disruption, stagnating domestic demand).

Ironically the EU will have a much bigger challenge adjusting to that fact as it’s entire economic structures are meant to facilitate and accommodate globalisation. But, at base, and like so many other issues it’s not a Brexit question, it’s more complex and multi-layered.


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## Pickman's model (Sep 6, 2021)

bimble said:


> i disagree with the whole framing of people as defined by how they voted in 2016, we all (well some of us) live here, so it's in all our interests to try to think of ways to make it not just shit.
> Looks to me like the whole thing is a sort of experiment in reversing a small part of globalisation, which it is possible to see ways in which it _could _have upsides, but as always its not the Idea of brexit we are dealing with any more but this particular bungled version led by these particular arseholes that is actually happening.


yeh but you're making the classic error of thinking that your 'not shit' is other people's 'not shit' too.

this is not any sort of experiment in reversing a small part of globalisation, as the 'global britain' wankery of the government might indicate


----------



## bimble (Sep 6, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh but you're making the classic error of thinking that your 'not shit' is other people's 'not shit' too.
> 
> this is not any sort of experiment in reversing a small part of globalisation, as the 'global britain' wankery of the government might indicate



nah, i'm pretty sure my shit looks much the same as yours, and its always best to ignore the government's statements.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 6, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> But that’s not true though is it. There are massive questions: what will a post neo-liberal Britain look like, climate questions, the post Brexit economy and work etc etc. Much of Remain seems stuck, unable to move beyond its defeat and wanting to replay the game over and again. A cogent analysis doesn’t mean it ‘has to fix Brexit’. It means accepting the result and engaging with now rather than trying to shoehorn every issue in the lens of 2016


As you probably know, I didn't engage with the plebiscite that 'offered' a choice between 2 visions of how to accelerate regressive wealth transfer. That said, I do appreciate that the electorate were encouraged to regard the UK's membership of the supra state as the over-arching issue of our times and then divide on the binary choice. So it's no surprise that folk still find themselves thinking in those terms and, as you say, the losers moaning about the outcome. After all, the very reason that the right party of capital found itself so riven that the plebiscite was the only solution they could discern, was that the 1973(5) losers had conducted a campaign of moaning about the outcome since then.

We're also dealing with people attuned to electoral outcomes that play out in 5 year cycles in which HMLO are constitutionally obliged to 'moan' about the outcome. It's just that in the case of a plebiscite there is no official opposition, is there? For Brexit loyalists to moan about the moaning looks suspiciously like trying to close down criticism of the outcome they won.


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## Badgers (Sep 6, 2021)




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## philosophical (Sep 6, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> To clarify three things: I’m not suggesting Remainers solve ‘the problems caused by Brexit’. Talking of which the ‘problems caused by Brexit’ are either illusory, short term, pre-existing structural or political economy matters exacerbated by it or a combination of all of them. Remainer accounts consistently overlook this paradigm and lack seriousness and credibility as a result.
> 
> Finally, if the sum of remain thinking is ‘everything is shit, and it’s all the fault of Brexit’ then it’s going nowhere. At some point someone on your side is going to need to produce a cogent analysis of where things are and what they think should be done about it; starting from the pre-existing order and properly taking into account all of the material factors. A grown up and serious account. No sign of it yet though.



Which category is the land border in Ireland? Illusory, short term, pre existing, structural, or a matter of political economy? As you don’t expect a remainer like me to solve that problem, what is your solution?


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 6, 2021)

bimble said:


> nah, i'm pretty sure my shit looks much the same as yours, and its always best to ignore the government's statements.


if you read my post instead of simply looking at the words you'll see we're not talking about shit but 'not shit'. this 'not shit' isn't excrement.

as for ignoring the government's statements, they should by no means be ignored, not because they're full of good sense and advice, but on the basis of sun tzu's sage advice 'know thine enemy' - and you learn a lot from what they say.


----------



## ska invita (Sep 6, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> the ‘problems caused by Brexit’ are either illusory, short term, pre-existing structural or political economy matters exacerbated by it or a combination of all of them.


Id love to see your list of which are illusory, which are short term and which are preexisting. Sounds like fantasy to me.
HMRC is expecting things to get worse.
I think we should embrace the new worse. 



Smokeandsteam said:


> At some point someone on your side is going to need to produce a cogent analysis of where things are and what they think should be done about it; starting from the pre-existing order and properly taking into account all of the material factors. A grown up and serious account. No sign of it yet though.


The solution is clear: Rejoin the customs Union


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Sep 6, 2021)

brogdale said:


> As you probably know, I didn't engage with the plebiscite that 'offered' a choice between 2 visions of how to accelerate regressive wealth transfer. That said, I do appreciate that the electorate were encouraged to regard the UK's membership of the supra state as the over-arching issue of our times and then divide on the binary choice. So it's no surprise that folk still find themselves thinking in those terms and, as you say, the losers moaning about the outcome. After all, the very reason that the right party of capital found itself so riven that the plebiscite was the only solution they could discern, was that the 1973(5) losers had conducted a campaign of moaning about the outcome since then.
> 
> We're also dealing with people attuned to electoral outcomes that play out in 5 year cycles in which HMLO are constitutionally obliged to 'moan' about the outcome. It's just that in the case of a plebiscite there is no official opposition, is there? For Brexit loyalists to moan about the moaning looks suspiciously like trying to close down criticism of the outcome they won.



For someone, who 'didn't engage' at the time, you've more than made up for it with your engagement since  

Don't buy the 5 year cycle line - at all. On your latter point I'd say there will need to come a point when, if the debate remains utterly circular, then continuity remain will need to be left to it. In terms of agency they are probably already dead, in the sense that its not been an idea that people coalesce around anymore and hasn't been for a long time. It's also fundamentally a politically disabling approach: social being produces social consciousness and freezing that process in time is never vey useful and over time becomes corrosive. Everyone I know who voted Remain has long since moved on, some have changed their mind, others haven't: but they don't define every issue through reference to the vote. Fully aware that the meme gang on here won't accept any of that, but they should.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Sep 6, 2021)

ska invita said:


> d love to see your list of which are illusory, which are short term and which are preexisting.



We don't do evidence on this thread pal


----------



## MrSki (Sep 6, 2021)

I feel it in my bones that sooner or later one of these Brexiteers will find an actual benefit to this whole shit show. Surely it must happen soon.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 6, 2021)

MrSki said:


> I feel it in my bones that sooner or later one of these Brexiteers will find an actual benefit to this whole shit show. Surely it must happen soon.


probably that while everyone's watching covid and brexit the real shit they're getting on with is going unnoticed.


----------



## gosub (Sep 6, 2021)

brogdale said:


> As you probably know, I didn't engage with the plebiscite that 'offered' a choice between 2 visions of how to accelerate regressive wealth transfer. That said, I do appreciate that the electorate were encouraged to regard the UK's membership of the supra state as the over-arching issue of our times and then divide on the binary choice. So it's no surprise that folk still find themselves thinking in those terms and, as you say, the losers moaning about the outcome. After all, the very reason that the right party of capital found itself so riven that the plebiscite was the only solution they could discern, was that the 1973(5) losers had conducted a campaign of moaning about the outcome since then.
> 
> We're also dealing with people attuned to electoral outcomes that play out in 5 year cycles in which HMLO are constitutionally obliged to 'moan' about the outcome. It's just that in the case of a plebiscite there is no official opposition, is there? For Brexit loyalists to moan about the moaning looks suspiciously like trying to close down criticism of the outcome they won.


Having been born in 72, didn't have much of a view of the 1973(5) plebiscites at the time.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 6, 2021)

gosub said:


> Having been born in 72, didn't have much of a view of the 1973(5) plebiscites at the time.


'75 was the plebiscite.


----------



## bimble (Sep 6, 2021)

If within the next few years, say 20,000 british people become lorry drivers, because the job of lorry driving becomes a decent job & there's help to pay the costs of training,  then what happens to the 20,000 jobs that they used to do but don't anymore ? 
Same with any industy where they're talking about shortages now - is the idea that the shit jobs will simply disappear ?


----------



## Raheem (Sep 6, 2021)

bimble said:


> If within the next few years, say 20,000 british people become lorry drivers, because the job of lorry driving becomes a decent job & there's help to pay the costs of training,  then what happens to the 20,000 jobs that they used to do but don't anymore ?
> Same with any industy where they're talking about shortages now - is the idea that the shit jobs will simply disappear ?


It think that sort of is the idea of some Tories. Picking fruit is rubbish work, so we should stop growing fruit and just import it. Can't help feeling it's a philosophy of convenience ("no, no, this is actually exactly what we wanted") rather than something ideological.


----------



## bimble (Sep 6, 2021)

Raheem said:


> It think that sort of is the idea of some Tories. Picking fruit is rubbish work, so we should stop growing fruit and just import it. Can't help feeling it's a philosophy of convenience ("no, no, this is actually exactly what we wanted") rather than something ideological.


yeah i keep remembering this guy in the telegraph. Food production = a "low value industry" so lets just allow it to disappear.


----------



## philosophical (Sep 6, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> But that’s not true though is it. There are massive questions: what will a post neo-liberal Britain look like, climate questions, the post Brexit economy and work etc etc. Much of Remain seems stuck, unable to move beyond its defeat and wanting to replay the game over and again. A cogent analysis doesn’t mean it ‘has to fix Brexit’. It means accepting the result and engaging with now rather than trying to shoehorn every issue in the lens of 2016



I believe we (remainers) accept the result, I don’t think you have to fret about that.
However the massive questions you pose are squarely down to the brexiteers to answer.
It is a matter of ‘you won, now get on with it and sort out everything you voted for (including the Irish border issue)’. We remainers won’t stop you brexiteers enjoying the fruits of your victory, it is accepted the floor is now yours, if you ask nicely we will even hold your coat whilst you enact your vision. However if you want any remainers to ‘engage’, you have to be more specific than that.
You brexiteers start first, and outline how you want the remainers to ‘engage’ and see if the remainers feel arsed to do anything.
Otherwise brexiteers it is accepted you dealt it, now you can smell it.
So where would you like to start?
Freedom of travel, study and work across the EU? Go for it, you go first and make a suggestion.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Sep 6, 2021)

It's weird that some people stopped having an opinion on things on 24th June 2016. Politics is held in aspic after that date, with no further campaigning - there isn't even a serious campaign to rejoin the EU yet.

Just sulking.


----------



## Badgers (Sep 6, 2021)

bimble said:


> If within the next few years, say 20,000 british people become lorry drivers, because the job of lorry driving becomes a decent job & there's help to pay the costs of training,  then what happens to the 20,000 jobs that they used to do but don't anymore ?
> Same with any industy where they're talking about shortages now - is the idea that the shit jobs will simply disappear ?


Once they have enough drivers then hours/pay will fall again. 

#ToryScum


----------



## bimble (Sep 6, 2021)

I don’t understand what these people think will happen in two years time, unless it’s that there will be fewer jobs overall in the country.  I mean the jobs that the expected new drivers & welders & butchers etc used to do, whatever they were, presumably those jobs will just no longer exist.









						UK labour crisis could last up to two years, CBI warns
					

Lobby group urges action on visas for foreign workers such as drivers, welders, butchers and bricklayers




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 6, 2021)

Fozzie Bear said:


> It's weird that some people stopped having an opinion on things on 24th June 2016. Politics is held in aspic after that date, with no further campaigning - there isn't even a serious campaign to rejoin the EU yet.
> 
> Just sulking.


it's not even proper aspic, it's some ersatz shit


----------



## Maggot (Sep 6, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> To clarify three things: I’m not suggesting Remainers solve ‘the problems caused by Brexit’. Talking of which the ‘problems caused by Brexit’ are either illusory, short term, pre-existing structural or political economy matters exacerbated by it or a combination of all of them.


Looks like we need some more buttons.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Sep 6, 2021)

This is excellent stuff, and the type of welcome reflection we need from Remainers. Bloodworth, who if I remember used to be in the Socialist Organiser before going on an identarian journey, voted Remain and, by any measure cannot be confused with a leave supporter:









						Why Remainers shouldn’t mock Brexiteers over the lorry driver shortage
					

The inconvenient truth is that employers have used migrant labour to reduce wages and standards.




					www.newstatesman.com


----------



## TopCat (Sep 6, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> This is excellent stuff, and the type of welcome reflection we need from Remainers. Bloodworth, who if I remember used to be in the Socialist Organiser before going on an identarian journey, voted Remain and, by any measure cannot be confused with a leave supporter:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It’s a good piece.


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 6, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> This is excellent stuff, and the type of welcome reflection we need from Remainers. Bloodworth, who if I remember used to be in the Socialist Organiser before going on an identarian journey, voted Remain and, by any measure cannot be confused with a leave supporter:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What I like about it is that how ever he voted he sees the issues through a lens that many of us can I identify with . Might get his book to read on the plane.

To be fair there are some posters on here who I have no idea which way they voted and who’ve also got a class analysis but have either never posted or rarely post on the Brexit issue .


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Sep 6, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> What I like about it is that how ever he voted he sees the issues through a lens that many of us can I identify with . Might get his book to read on the plane.
> 
> To be fair there are some posters on here who I have no idea which way they voted and who’ve also got a class analysis but have either never posted or rarely post on the Brexit issue .



His book is excellent: required reading. 

I don't blame those posters by the way, but the issue does foreground the collapse of a class politics on the left imho


----------



## andysays (Sep 6, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> This is excellent stuff, and the type of welcome reflection we need from Remainers. Bloodworth, who if I remember used to be in the Socialist Organiser before going on an identarian journey, voted Remain and, by any measure cannot be confused with a leave supporter:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for posting that.

I think it's also worth noting what he says in the penultimate paragraph.

_To be sure, there are other ways of securing improved pay and conditions for low-paid workers than choking off the supply of economic migrants. The dearth of trade union representation in contemporary workplaces is arguably a bigger fetter on workers’ demands than foreign labour. Indeed, the choice to keep wages low is a conscious one taken by big employers. Workers organising under an effective union leadership could squeeze bigger concessions out of employers while eschewing the ugly rhetoric that often accompanies conversations around economic migration._

Those of us who were (and still are) in favour of Brexit do need to acknowledge the truth of this, and particularly to continue to argue against what Bloodworth calls the ugly rhetoric that often accompanies conversations around economic migration.

Economic migrants were never the enemy, and we should continue to argue against seeing them as such. Our enemy is the employers who chose to keep wages low, and who will try to find new ways to keep them low in the future.


----------



## Badgers (Sep 6, 2021)




----------



## andysays (Sep 6, 2021)

Badgers said:


> View attachment 287102



Here's another good bit, if you can tear yourself away from posting shit memes for a moment

_This is the reason many low-paid workers voted for Brexit, even if Remainers do not wish to hear it. But then, perhaps they don’t want to acknowledge that they themselves are shielded from the vicissitudes at the bottom of the labour market. Britons in well-paid jobs have never had much to fear from low-skilled EU migration. The same is not true of those in low-paid occupations._


----------



## Badgers (Sep 6, 2021)

andysays said:


> Here's another good bit, if you can tear yourself away from posting shit memes for a moment
> 
> _This is the reason many low-paid workers voted for Brexit, even if Remainers do not wish to hear it. But then, perhaps they don’t want to acknowledge that they themselves are shielded from the vicissitudes at the bottom of the labour market. Britons in well-paid jobs have never had much to fear from low-skilled EU migration. The same is not true of those in low-paid occupations._


 

Under a Tory government??? You are fucking kidding me and yourself surely 

SUNLIT fucking UPLANDS for low paid folk


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Sep 6, 2021)

Badgers said:


> SUNLIT fucking UPLANDS for low paid folk



Instead of typing capital letters why not actually read what the article says. It’s the opposite of what you’ve taken from it. There is no suggestion of ‘sunlit uplands’.


----------



## A380 (Sep 6, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> it's not even proper aspic, it's some ersatz shit


Happy Shopper aspic style slime.


----------



## philosophical (Sep 6, 2021)

andysays said:


> Here's another good bit, if you can tear yourself away from posting shit memes for a moment
> 
> _This is the reason many low-paid workers voted for Brexit, even if Remainers do not wish to hear it. But then, perhaps they don’t want to acknowledge that they themselves are shielded from the vicissitudes at the bottom of the labour market. Britons in well-paid jobs have never had much to fear from low-skilled EU migration. The same is not true of those in low-paid occupations._


Did those many low paid workers have a solution to the irish land border issue?
I would like to hear that.
From them, or you, or any other poster on here that is in favour of brexit, or of making the best (ha ha) of brexit.
Go for it.


----------



## philosophical (Sep 6, 2021)

Here is a story from the BBC about a warning from Marks and Spencer saying that because of the forthcoming new rules there are likely to be shortages.









						M&S warns of new food supplies threat as Brexit rules change
					

Retailer warns of "significant disruption" to food imports when new paperwork comes in next month.



					www.bbc.co.uk
				




I reckon the brexiteers who moan about the remainers always complaining and not engaging, have a solution to suggest for the remainers to engage with.
Go without.
Am I right brexiteers?
Do you have any ideas as to how remainers can engage with the shortages in a positive way?
I suppose there is always blank denial to fall back on.
Or sneering at people who shop at Marks and Spencer, yep brexiteers can always try that.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Sep 6, 2021)

EU-wide campaign for a rise in wages of officials who issue Export Health Certificates. 

In the UK it seems reasonable that the requirement that vets do these checks is relaxed to include other people with POAO / meat hygiene qualifications, such as environmental health officers.

(I couldn't actually read the Times article because it is paywalled, so quite hard to engage with. I did not vote in the referendum).


----------



## NoXion (Sep 6, 2021)

philosophical said:


> Did those many low paid workers have a solution to the irish land border issue?
> I would like to hear that.
> From them, or you, or any other poster on here that is in favour of brexit, or of making the best (ha ha) of brexit.
> Go for it.



Why? There wasn't any space provided on the ballot for jotting down one's thoughts on the Irish border. 



philosophical said:


> Here is a story from the BBC about a warning from Marks and Spencer saying that because of the forthcoming new rules there are likely to be shortages.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Have you tried looking in different shops? Or waiting? When the imbeciles started clearing the supermarket shelves of all the bog roll, I ended up getting my supply from the local corner shop instead. Recently I had to buy the specific kind of toothpaste I wanted in person, because they didn't have any in stock for delivery. Yes it is inconvenient, but it's hardly the end of the world.

As for the bureaucratic and corporate mess that governments and industry are still going through five years later, I wouldn't know where to start with that one. I'm still struggling to write my own Personal Development Plan for work, sorting out the customs shit is going to require teams of people with experience in the field. Maybe some kind of pressure could be put on the government and industry to devote proper resources to the problem instead of trying to just muddle their way through by dragging their feet and squealing for band-aid solutions like visas for cheap drivers from elsewhere.


----------



## philosophical (Sep 6, 2021)

NoXion said:


> Why? There wasn't any space provided on the ballot for jotting down one's thoughts on the Irish border.


*Indeed, yet the ballot paper was a vote about the whole of the UK making no indication that Northern ireland would be treated differently.
If there had been a space for jotting down your thoughts about the Irish border, did you have any?
Personally I thought about it, and voted remain.*


NoXion said:


> Have you tried looking in different shops? Or waiting? When the imbeciles started clearing the supermarket shelves of all the bog roll, I ended up getting my supply from the local corner shop instead. Recently I had to buy the specific kind of toothpaste I wanted in person, because they didn't have any in stock for delivery. Yes it is inconvenient, but it's hardly the end of the world.
> 
> As for the bureaucratic and corporate mess that governments and industry are still going through five years later, I wouldn't know where to start with that one. I'm still struggling to write my own Personal Development Plan for work, sorting out the customs shit is going to require teams of people with experience in the field. Maybe some kind of pressure could be put on the government and industry to devote proper resources to the problem instead of trying to just muddle their way through by dragging their feet and squealing for band-aid solutions like visas for cheap drivers from elsewhere.



*Of course there are other shops to look in. But if increased bureaucracy is going to impact on the supply of goods to Marks and Spencer, it is a reasonable assumption to think the increased bureaucracy will have a trickle down impact on all shops.
You say there will be inconvenience, do you think there will be an upside to balance out the inconvenience?*


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Sep 6, 2021)

Bold move there by the philosophical.


----------



## NoXion (Sep 6, 2021)

philosophical said:


> *Indeed, yet the ballot paper was a vote about the whole of the UK making no indication that Northern ireland would be treated differently.
> If there had been a space for jotting down your thoughts about the Irish border, did you have any?
> Personally I thought about it, and voted remain.
> 
> ...



Why the bold?

No, I didn't have any thoughts about the Irish border when I voted. Just like I didn't have any thoughts about the Irish border at any other time that I have voted. I don't define my political decisions in relation to one border.

I already got what I wanted. Britain out of the EU. Anything else after that is a bonus. The retail sector has a direct financial interest in smoothing over their import-export problems, so any idea that shortages are here to stay, rather than being the ultimately transient result of governments and businesses being unprepared, doesn't make sense to me.


----------



## Badgers (Sep 6, 2021)

NoXion said:


> I already got what I wanted. Britain out of the EU. Anything else after that is a bonus.


Can you let the lads in Ireland and Northern Ireland know about the bonuses then.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Sep 6, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Can you let the lads in Ireland and Northern Ireland know about the bonuses then.



Why must there be bonuses? This idea that material benefits must flow is very Thatcherite…


----------



## Badgers (Sep 6, 2021)

The money will flow soon


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Sep 6, 2021)

Supply chain, you say?









						Lorry driver shortage: strike threat at two firms increases supply chain fears
					

Staff at Tesco-owned Booker and cement producer Hanson move closer to industrial action




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## philosophical (Sep 6, 2021)

NoXion said:


> Why the bold?
> 
> No, I didn't have any thoughts about the Irish border when I voted. Just like I didn't have any thoughts about the Irish border at any other time that I have voted. I don't define my political decisions in relation to one border.
> 
> I already got what I wanted. Britain out of the EU. Anything else after that is a bonus. The retail sector has a direct financial interest in smoothing over their import-export problems, so any idea that shortages are here to stay, rather than being the ultimately transient result of governments and businesses being unprepared, doesn't make sense to me.


I used the bold because I often fuck up the quote and reply system, and thought it would differentiate my words from the other poster.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Sep 6, 2021)

What do low paid workers who voted for Brexit think the solution is to the complexities of the quote and reply system. I would like to know.


----------



## philosophical (Sep 6, 2021)

NoXion said:


> Why the bold?
> 
> No, I didn't have any thoughts about the Irish border when I voted. Just like I didn't have any thoughts about the Irish border at any other time that I have voted. I don't define my political decisions in relation to one border.
> 
> I already got what I wanted. Britain out of the EU. Anything else after that is a bonus. The retail sector has a direct financial interest in smoothing over their import-export problems, so any idea that shortages are here to stay, rather than being the ultimately transient result of governments and businesses being unprepared, doesn't make sense to me.



You have got what you wanted if you define Britain as Scotland, Wales and England. However you referenced the ballot paper which was about the UK.
In terms of defining a political decision in relation to one border, isn't that the crux of the vote, for the UK to leave the EU and therefore there would be a border separating the two entities?


----------



## NoXion (Sep 6, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Can you let the lads in Ireland and Northern Ireland know about the bonuses then.



Looks like there's a reckoning of sorts going on in the HGV industry - they're desperate for more workers, and this has increased the bargaining power of the drivers still sticking it out.


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 6, 2021)

Fozzie Bear said:


> EU-wide campaign for a rise in wages of officials who issue Export Health Certificates.
> 
> In the UK it seems reasonable that the requirement that vets do these checks is relaxed to include other people with POAO / meat hygiene qualifications, such as environmental health officers.
> 
> (I couldn't actually read the Times article because it is paywalled, so quite hard to engage with. I did not vote in the* referendum*).


plebiscite as it is now known as


----------



## Badgers (Sep 6, 2021)

NoXion said:


> Looks like there's a reckoning of sorts going on in the HGV industry - they're desperate for more workers, and this has increased the bargaining power of the drivers still sticking it out.


Is that a bonus then? 

Might have a tiny impact in 12-18 months. Maybe partly solving a salary issue we all knew about ten years before Brexit.


----------



## NoXion (Sep 6, 2021)

philosophical said:


> You have got what you wanted if you define Britain as Scotland, Wales and England. However you referenced the ballot paper which was about the UK.
> In terms of defining a political decision in relation to one border, isn't that the crux of the vote, for the UK to leave the EU and therefore there would be a border separating the two entities?



The border has always been there. I got an opportunity - perhaps the only one I will ever get in my entire life - to cast a vote on the matter, and I took it.


----------



## Badgers (Sep 6, 2021)

NoXion said:


> The border has always been there. I got an opportunity - perhaps the only one I will ever get in my entire life - to cast a vote on the matter, and I took it.


Thanks from all of us 👏👏👏


----------



## NoXion (Sep 6, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Thanks from all of us 👏👏👏



You're welcome!


----------



## Supine (Sep 6, 2021)

NoXion said:


> I got an opportunity - perhaps the only one I will ever get in my entire life - to cast a vote on the matter, and I took it.



And you fucked it up


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Sep 6, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Thanks from all of us 👏👏👏


Definitely, thanks from me too


----------



## philosophical (Sep 6, 2021)

NoXion said:


> The border has always been there. I got an opportunity - perhaps the only one I will ever get in my entire life - to cast a vote on the matter, and I took it.



The border has been there for less than 100 years.
Incidentally, are you aware of the strife in Ireland as a result of the establishment of that border?


----------



## TopCat (Sep 6, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Is that a bonus then?
> 
> Might have a tiny impact in 12-18 months. Maybe partly solving a salary issue we all knew about ten years before Brexit.


Successful industrial action encourages others to do the same.


----------



## Badgers (Sep 6, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Successful industrial action encourages others to do the same.


It is a good thing for sure. Could have been done without Brexit by a decent government.


----------



## Badgers (Sep 6, 2021)




----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Sep 6, 2021)

Badgers said:


> It is a good thing for sure. Could have been done without Brexit by *a decent government.*



a what??


----------



## TopCat (Sep 6, 2021)

Badgers said:


> It is a good thing for sure. Could have been done without Brexit by a decent government.


What, a government decreeing higher wages?


----------



## Badgers (Sep 6, 2021)

TopCat said:


> What, a government decreeing higher wages?


Why not?


----------



## NoXion (Sep 6, 2021)

philosophical said:


> The border has been there for less than 100 years.
> Incidentally, are you aware of the strife in Ireland as a result of the establishment of that border?



I wasn't talking about the border in Ireland. Like an idiot, I thought you had moved on from your monomaniacal obsession and was talking about the border between the UK and the EU. _Mea culpa._


----------



## TopCat (Sep 6, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Why not?


For a non government funded industry?


----------



## Badgers (Sep 6, 2021)




----------



## Badgers (Sep 6, 2021)

TopCat said:


> For a non government funded industry?


Why not?


----------



## NoXion (Sep 6, 2021)

Supine said:


> And you fucked it up



Nope, I voted the way I wanted. Implementing that decision is quite literally someone else's job. Maybe you should have a go at them for not doing it.


----------



## Supine (Sep 6, 2021)

NoXion said:


> Nope, I voted the way I wanted. Implementing that decision is quite literally someone else's job. Maybe you should have a go at them for not doing it.



I never had any faith in the tories implementing it, so haven’t been disappointed.


----------



## Badgers (Sep 6, 2021)

NoXion said:


> Nope, I voted the way I wanted. Implementing that decision is quite literally someone else's job. Maybe you should have a go at them for not doing it.


You voted based on a greedy liars lies and want someone else to have a go at them? 

Own your shit


----------



## TopCat (Sep 6, 2021)

Badgers said:


> You voted based on a greedy liars lies and want someone else to have a go at them?
> 
> Own your shit


You assume leave voters made their minds up because of greedy liars lies.


----------



## philosophical (Sep 6, 2021)

NoXion said:


> I wasn't talking about the border in Ireland. Like an idiot, I thought you had moved on from your monomaniacal obsession and was talking about the border between the UK and the EU. _Mea culpa._


The border in Ireland _is _the border between the UK and the EU.


----------



## Badgers (Sep 6, 2021)

TopCat said:


> You assume leave voters made their minds up because of greedy liars lies.


Sort out all the £350m weekly payments backdated and then come back to me


----------



## NoXion (Sep 6, 2021)

Badgers said:


> You voted based on a greedy liars lies and want someone else to have a go at them?
> 
> Own your shit



My vote was based on my own thoughts about the EU. A neoliberal supra-state created for the benefit of European capital. Why the fuck would a communist like me be in favour of that?! Because said entity throws a few investment crumbs towards post-industrial areas, a sticking plaster on a sucking chest wound? Sorry, but my loyalty isn't so easy to buy.


----------



## Badgers (Sep 6, 2021)

NoXion said:


> My vote was based on my own thoughts about the EU. A neoliberal supra-state created for the benefit of European capital. Why the fuck would a communist like me be in favour of that?! Because said entity throws a few investment crumbs towards post-industrial areas, a sticking plaster on a sucking chest wound? Sorry, but my loyalty isn't so easy to buy.


Heh  

Luckily us UK angels will be rich, healthy and happy now the #ToryScum can run roughshod over rights and laws. 

Brexit was a lot to do with tax dodging rich and not a lot to do with the people being better off.


----------



## NoXion (Sep 6, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Heh
> 
> Luckily us UK angels will be rich, healthy and happy now the #ToryScum can run roughshod over rights and laws.
> 
> Brexit was a lot to do with tax dodging rich and not a lot to do with the people being better off.



Relying on Daddy EU to protect us was never going to work out. Just look what they did to Greece.


----------



## Badgers (Sep 6, 2021)

NoXion said:


> Relying on Daddy EU to protect us was never going to work out. Just look what they did to Greece.


So?


----------



## NoXion (Sep 6, 2021)

Badgers said:


> So?



So we should leave the EU. NATO has gotten up to some shit and we should leave that one too.


----------



## Badgers (Sep 6, 2021)

Keep me posted in this as well



			https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/831450/Jacob-Rees-Mogg-Brexit-food-wine-clothes-shoes-lower-20-per-cent/amp?__twitter_impression=true


----------



## Badgers (Sep 6, 2021)

NoXion said:


> So we should leave the EU. NATO has gotten up to some shit and we should leave that one too.


That will be great for tHe uK


----------



## Badgers (Sep 6, 2021)

#worldbeating


----------



## Ax^ (Sep 6, 2021)

NoXion said:


> Relying on Daddy EU to protect us was never going to work out. Just look what they did to Greece.



well the brits did it to themselves hows that working out


----------



## Ax^ (Sep 6, 2021)

after promising to use the money not spent paying the EU

are they really going to raise national insurance which will effect the poor more than the rich


but still highlight that they will take your house from you if you have the audasity to grow to an old age

but black blue passports


----------



## Ax^ (Sep 6, 2021)

the worst parts of the whole deal was people expecting westminster to look after their interests

but still defending it almost 9 months later


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Sep 6, 2021)

NI grace period extended indefinitely by the EU, Macron and Rutte deciding that the EU needs the U.K. as a global ally.
Imagine what we could have got had May not done her red line bollocks.


----------



## Ax^ (Sep 6, 2021)

eu told by the us not to fuck with the good friday agreement


not sure who is winning in that one


----------



## philosophical (Sep 6, 2021)

NoXion said:


> Nope, I voted the way I wanted. Implementing that decision is quite literally someone else's job. Maybe you should have a go at them for not doing it.


A lot of people might vote for men to have babies. However a lot of people would know straight away it couldn't be done.
I suppose some people might vote for men to have babies, and then leave it to the boffins or somebody to implement it.
In that scenario anybody voting for men to have babies wouldn't get what they voted for.
A lot of other people would have worked out that men having babies wasn't feasible in the first place, and assume those with the capacity to think would realise that.


----------



## Maggot (Sep 6, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Why must there be bonuses? This idea that material benefits must flow is very Thatcherite…


Yes, why should there? We didn't vote for Brexit to make things better!


----------



## Raheem (Sep 6, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> NI grace period extended indefinitely by the EU, Macron and Rutte deciding that the EU needs the U.K. as a global ally.
> Imagine what we could have got had May not done her red line bollocks.


Not sure that's a correct reading of what has happened. It's the UK that's extended the grace period. The EU has agreed to suspend Its enforcement. But the effect looks like a massive climbdown by the UK. We're agreeing to regulatory alignment, ECJ jurisdiction, non-implementation of new trade deals indefinitely, with no idea of how to get out of it.

Probably a good result if you live in the UK, but not really a victory for HMG.


----------



## NoXion (Sep 6, 2021)

philosophical said:


> A lot of people might vote for men to have babies. However a lot of people would know straight away it couldn't be done.
> I suppose some people might vote for men to have babies, and then leave it to the boffins or somebody to implement it.
> In that scenario anybody voting for men to have babies wouldn't get what they voted for.
> A lot of other people would have worked out that men having babies wasn't feasible in the first place, and assume those with the capacity to think would realise that.



This is a stupid analogy. Transmen have given birth.


----------



## philosophical (Sep 6, 2021)

NoXion said:


> This is a stupid analogy. Transmen have given birth.



I was talking about a proposal for all men to give birth.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Sep 6, 2021)

Bit weird.


----------



## Gramsci (Sep 6, 2021)

I've been following some of this thread.

I was a Remainer not because I thought the EU was great but because I worked with a lot of EU nationals from Eastern Europe. Plus my partner is Spanish.

I understand EU was and is a flawed institution.

Many of my East European workmates/friends were highly critical of aspects of EU, how their countries had gone post Eastern Bloc. Many of them saw the post Communist years in a way that was mixed blessing. Poland in particular had moved to hard right Catholic Nationalist governments. Hard right on social issues but better on welfare than the first post communist governments who bought neo Liberalism wholesale.

A lot of people I know from example Romania living here regarded their post communist governments as corrupt. The assets looted by those in power. But presenting to EU a semblance of democracy. ( This didn't apply to Roma)

On immigration.

Some of my East European friends were not pro non EU immigrants. Even if EU was democraticised ( which it isn't at this time. And was a legitimate reason to vote Brexit) I don't think  EU would suddenly become some kind of pro asylum seeker/ non EU immigrant paradise.
It could be like in UK a lot of EU ordinary people who are voters have concerns about immigration. Just saying EU is undemocratic therefore its got racist immigration policy didn't cut it for me.

Imo a lot of issues in EU aren't all to do with way the EU works. There are hard right governments voted in some EU countries who are at loggerheads with EU bureaucracy.

What I'm saying is that my experience of EU people and seeing say for example Poland voting for Catholic Nationalist governments is that EU is not to blame for everything as some Brexiteers appear to argue.

As a Remainer ( on basis I didn't like the the anti immigrant side of campaign) I don't see how so far their have been plus points leaving. The hard right Tories have benefitted. UKIP succeeded in its aims. 

A lot of issues like poor pay and conditions, lack of training etc didn't really have that much to do with EU.

The subtle and not so subtle suggestion I see in some media and here that reduction of EU migrants will bring benefits for UK nationals in terms of better pay and conditions has Imo pervaded the referendum and post referendum discourse. I for one find it offensive.

This country with Thatcher had steered its own course to Neo Liberalism.


----------



## ska invita (Sep 6, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> At some point someone on your side is going to need to produce a cogent analysis of where things are and what they think should be done about it;





ska invita said:


> The solution is clear: Rejoin the customs Union


right on cue








						Boris Johnson’s biggest lie about Europe is finally coming home to roost | Simon Jenkins
					

From plummeting trade to drastic shortages of workers, needlessly leaving the single market has been disastrous, says Guardian columnist Simon Jenkins




					www.theguardian.com
				



"Brexit need never have so devastated the British economy. The damage has come from one decision, to depart the single market. The sensible path now would be for Johnson to eat humble pie and seek, as far and as fast as possible, readmission to that market. "

--rejoining the customs union / the single market (as opposed to the EU) will be the policy remainers will rally around...and so it will rumble on for years, an albatross around Labours neck, the way it was for the tories for decades


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 6, 2021)

philosophical said:


> You have got what you wanted if you define Britain as Scotland, Wales and England. However you referenced the ballot paper which was about the UK.
> In terms of defining a political decision in relation to one border, isn't that the crux of the vote, for the UK to leave the EU and therefore there would be a border separating the two entities?



Don't be worrying about Ireland.

It's all coming together. One way or another.

It's by far the most important legacy of Brexit.


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 6, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> eu told by the us not to fuck with the good friday agreement
> 
> 
> not sure who is winning in that one



Hopefully the US will send troops into the Brexit heartlands to make it clear that not fucking with the GFA is enforced.

Of course, military occupation might irk some, but they'll be there for your own good.


----------



## Ax^ (Sep 6, 2021)

we should just stop talking about brexit,
 as tory voting leaning people are hopeing that the end of the furlough scheme,
 will give boris a few million people to exploit and if not we have prisoners


----------



## xenon (Sep 6, 2021)

philosophical said:


> The border has been there for less than 100 years.
> Incidentally, are you aware of the strife in Ireland as a result of the establishment of that border?



oh just fucking unite the place already. Anyone that don’t like it, kick them into the North Atlantic. Job done.


----------



## xenon (Sep 7, 2021)

Re-join the customs union but also do trade deals with other parts of the world. what will the EU do,  sue. Come on be bold. They are going to sue whatever happens.


----------



## Gramsci (Sep 7, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> This is excellent stuff, and the type of welcome reflection we need from Remainers. Bloodworth, who if I remember used to be in the Socialist Organiser before going on an identarian journey, voted Remain and, by any measure cannot be confused with a leave supporter:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



As it happens Ive always done working class jobs. When Poles were allowed to come here to work I found myself working besides a lot of Poles. Who became my friends. I'm didn't see them as competition. But as human beings from another country who I learnt a lot from.  

So this article might express the views of some. But not me.

I was a Remainer as were most people in my area.


----------



## extra dry (Sep 7, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Spoiler alert:
> Are we nearly at the bit
> when we run out of gravediggers with bodies piling up unburied


solent green anyone, as the country runs out of food from Europe and we can not feed ourselves


----------



## brogdale (Sep 7, 2021)

bimble said:


> i disagree with the whole framing of people as defined by how they voted in 2016, we all (well some of us) live here, so it's in all our interests to try to think of ways to make it not just shit.
> Looks to me like the whole thing is a sort of experiment in reversing a small part of globalisation, which it is possible to see ways in which it _could _have upsides, but as always its not the Idea of brexit we are dealing with any more but this particular bungled version led by these particular arseholes that is actually happening.


Many of those behind the pressure groups and parties agitating for withdrawal did so with the aim of accelerating, rather than reversing, ‘globalisation ‘. They are the free-market fundamentalists who regarded the protectionism of the suprastate as a barrier to true globalisation of their means of production, capital and wealth.

The ‘choice’ put to the electorate was between 2 visions of how to consolidate and increase the gains of the last 50+ years made by globalised, financialised capital.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 7, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> But that’s not true though is it. There are massive questions: what will a post neo-liberal Britain look like, climate questions, the post Brexit economy and work etc etc. Much of Remain seems stuck, unable to move beyond its defeat and wanting to replay the game over and again. A cogent analysis doesn’t mean it ‘has to fix Brexit’. It means accepting the result and engaging with now rather than trying to shoehorn every issue in the lens of 2016


Just as “much of Leave seems stuck, unable to move beyond its victory”; a victory that came from a long-game of moaning especially following the result of the 1975 plebiscite vote to accept the U.K. state’s accession to the EEC.

The continued polarisation of electoral politics and the new long game of capital’s culture wars stem from the division and strong association with binary nature of 2016.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 7, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> For someone, who 'didn't engage' at the time, you've more than made up for it with your engagement since





Smokeandsteam said:


> Fully aware that the meme gang on here won't accept any of that, but they should.


 You’re right, I should have written “vote”!

It’s all very well for a Brexit loyalist to say that those opposing should just accept the outcome, move on and forget their belief that the U.K. state was better off as a member, but that’s, obviously, not how it works for those with very deeply held convictions, is it?

Exactly the same could have been said of the “bastards” that decided not to accept UK membership and eventually won the 2016 plebiscite.


----------



## NoXion (Sep 7, 2021)

Gramsci said:


> A lot of issues like poor pay and conditions, lack of training etc didn't really have that much to do with EU.



Oh, come off it. The EU had nothing to do with the ability of bosses to exploit cheaper labour? Really?


----------



## TopCat (Sep 7, 2021)

[QUOTE="Gramsci, post: 17296452, member: 1046 QUOTE]

The subtle and not so subtle suggestion I see in some media and here that reduction of EU migrants will bring benefits for UK nationals in terms of better pay and conditions has Imo pervaded the referendum and post referendum discourse. I for one find it offensive.

[/QUOTE]
It’s true though.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 7, 2021)

TopCat said:


> [QUOTE="Gramsci, post: 17296452, member: 1046 QUOTE]
> 
> The subtle and not so subtle suggestion I see in some media and here that reduction of EU migrants will bring benefits for UK nationals in terms of better pay and conditions has Imo pervaded the referendum and post referendum discourse. I for one find it offensive.


It’s true though.
[/QUOTE]
It might work temporarily, for some sectors, but to justify that transitory ‘sticking plaster’, should the left really be cheerleading for the FoM of capital and wealth but not labour? Is the left really just about entrenching the crumbs to the workers behind nationalist labour protectionist walls?


----------



## NoXion (Sep 7, 2021)

I've gotten along with some absolutely wonderful folks from Poland and other parts of Europe. That doesn't change the reality of what happens when a labour market is opened up on a continent-wide basis, including areas where workers are willing to travel and work for a lower wages and accept worse conditions.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 7, 2021)

NoXion said:


> I've gotten along with some absolutely wonderful folks from Poland and other parts of Europe. That doesn't change the reality of what happens when a labour market is opened up on a continent-wide basis, including areas where workers are willing to travel and work for a lower wages and accept worse conditions.


Yet opening up on a global basis (minus the suprastate) will have what sort of impact on pay & conditions?


----------



## bimble (Sep 7, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Many of those behind the pressure groups and parties agitating for withdrawal did so with the aim of accelerating, rather than reversing, ‘globalisation ‘. They are the free-market fundamentalists who regarded the protectionism of the suprastate as a barrier to true globalisation of their means of production, capital and wealth.
> 
> The ‘choice’ put to the electorate was between 2 visions of how to consolidate and increase the gains of the last 50+ years made by globalised, financialised capital.


Yep. I can't attempt a proper response this morning but i think that's an example of how the intentions of the Vote Leave politicians (& the current government) were and are very much at odds with the motivations of most of the people who actually voted leave and gave them the keys to the clown car.
I mean whilst the government talks about the glorious freedom of open market trade deals with the emerging economies of asia-pacific and all that, i do think that the act of voting leave & the idea of brexit was - for many - an 'anti globalization' choice.


----------



## NoXion (Sep 7, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Yet opening up on a global basis (minus the suprastate) will have what sort of impact on pay & conditions?



You think UKGOV is planning to open up to the rest of the world on the same level as the EU is open within itself? Seems unlikely; I'll believe it when I see it.


----------



## TopCat (Sep 7, 2021)

Globalisation pushed up company profits and share prices and depressed wages. What’s to like?


----------



## philosophical (Sep 7, 2021)

NoXion said:


> Oh, come off it. The EU had nothing to do with the ability of bosses to exploit cheaper labour? Really?


The UK was front and centre of EU policy whilst a member.
Pre referendum there wasn’t the EU over there as some disassociated system. The UK was the EU, or a hugely significant part of it.


----------



## NoXion (Sep 7, 2021)

philosophical said:


> The UK was front and centre of EU policy whilst a member.
> Pre referendum there wasn’t the EU over there as some disassociated system. The UK was the EU, or a hugely significant part of it.



If you think only the UK wanted to exploit cheaper labour, then I'm afraid you're mistaken.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 7, 2021)

NoXion said:


> You think UKGOV is planning to open up to the rest of the world on the same level as the EU is open within itself? Seems unlikely; I'll believe it when I see it.


In a "points based" system, who do you think determines the points?


----------



## TopCat (Sep 7, 2021)

philosophical said:


> The UK was front and centre of EU policy whilst a member.
> Pre referendum there wasn’t the EU over there as some disassociated system. The UK was the EU, or a hugely significant part of it.


Hilarious really that you assert this. The French and Germans run the EU for their own benefit. They never gave us the steam off of their piss let alone a policy driving seat.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 7, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Globalisation pushed up company profits and share prices and depressed wages. What’s to like?


Nothing; makes the Lexit cheerleading look odd.


----------



## TopCat (Sep 7, 2021)

brogdale said:


> In a "points based" system, who do you think determines the points?


If they unrestricted immigration from India to the UK for those with professional qualifications you would find the bleating from the middle class remainers deafening.


----------



## TopCat (Sep 7, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Nothing; makes the Lexit cheerleading look odd.


Right wing lexiteers maybe.


----------



## bimble (Sep 7, 2021)

NoXion said:


> You think UKGOV is planning to open up to the rest of the world on the same level as the EU is open within itself? Seems unlikely; I'll believe it when I see it.


Not ‘ free movement’ On the EU model but I think in time (not long) we will see arranged immigration from poorer counties put in place to try to bring as many people here as will be needed to try to fill the vacancies without having to change anything about pay and conditions, so expect Uk will compete with other rich countries for (example) care workers from the Philippines etc.


----------



## TopCat (Sep 7, 2021)

bimble said:


> Not ‘ free movement’ On the EU model but I think in time (not long) we will see arranged immigration from poorer counties put in place to try to bring as many people here as will be needed to try to fill the vacancies without having to change anything about pay and conditions, so expect Uk will compete with other rich countries for (example) care workers from the Philippines etc.


Well there are no significant moves to do this.


----------



## TopCat (Sep 7, 2021)

“I got this marvellous accountant darling, really cheap and they work on Sundays!”


----------



## bimble (Sep 7, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Well there are no significant moves to do this.


It was just a prediction. But we are an ageing population with low birth rate. We either need immigrants or we need to have a smaller economy (with fewer jobs needing doing).


----------



## Artaxerxes (Sep 7, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Well there are no significant moves to do this.



Sure sure.









						Exclusive | India Pushes Post-Brexit UK For Easier Visa Norms, Lower Trade Barriers
					

Ahead of Boris Johnson's visit later in 2021, India and the UK are sitting at the negotiation table.




					www.moneycontrol.com
				












						UK-India agree partnership to boost work visas for Indian nationals
					

UK and India have signed an ambitious new migration partnership, which will see both countries benefit from a new scheme for Indian and British professionals.




					www.gov.uk


----------



## TopCat (Sep 7, 2021)

bimble said:


> It was just a prediction. But we are an ageing population with low birth rate. We either need immigrants or we need to have a smaller economy (with fewer jobs needing doing).


More automation, reduce unemployment.


----------



## TopCat (Sep 7, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Sure sure.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


But are there any signs India’s ask will be met? The government would not dare.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Sep 7, 2021)

TopCat said:


> But are there any signs India’s ask will be met? The government would not dare.



Updated it, it's already been met.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 7, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Well there are no significant moves to do this.


----------



## TopCat (Sep 7, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Updated it, it's already been met.


Spell out what’s has been agreed then and when this will be implemented.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 7, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Right wing lexiteers maybe.


I accept that the cheerleading from Lexiteers many have been unconscious.


----------



## bimble (Sep 7, 2021)

TopCat said:


> More automation, reduce unemployment.



👍


----------



## brogdale (Sep 7, 2021)

Edifying spectacle this; the keep the foreigners out mob vrs the let (but only European) foreigners in brigades.


----------



## TopCat (Sep 7, 2021)

brogdale said:


> I accept that the cheerleading from Lexiteers many have been unconscious.


Unconscious cheerleading is fascinating.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 7, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Unconscious cheerleading is fascinating.


depressing, more like.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Sep 7, 2021)

We will have to see how this shit shakes out over the next few years because Covid has taken a big old shit on any long term plans or investigation right now.

I'm sure the conservatives have plans and are going to use every ounce of national trauma to get them through as per the shock doctrine. Situation is quite raw though. It's also a mere 8 months post Freedom Day


----------



## bimble (Sep 7, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Edifying spectacle this; the keep the foreigners out mob vrs the let (but only European) foreigners in brigades.


It’s fine, we will just have nice blonde immigrants from Australia.


----------



## Spymaster (Sep 7, 2021)

bimble said:


> It’s fine, we will just have nice blonde immigrants from Australia.



And India.


----------



## bimble (Sep 7, 2021)

The government's Shortage Occupations List - the jobs where you don't need to meet the points based system (don't need to be paid "the full rate") in order to come to the UK - is an interesting read. I think likely to be tinkered with endlessly according to the needs of business.





__





						Skilled Worker visa: shortage occupations
					






					www.gov.uk


----------



## Artaxerxes (Sep 7, 2021)

bimble said:


> The government's Shortage Occupations List - the jobs where you don't need to meet the points based system (don't need to be paid "the full rate") in order to come to the UK - is an interesting read. I think likely to be tinkered with endlessly according to the needs of business.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




This looks telling...









						Immigration: No visas for low-skilled workers, government says
					

Ministers urge firms to stop relying on "cheap labour", but critics warn of damage to the economy.



					www.bbc.co.uk
				






> Under the plan, the definition of skilled workers would be expanded to include those educated to A-level/Scottish Highers-equivalent standard, not just graduate level, as is currently the case.
> Waiting tables and certain types of farm worker would be removed from the new skilled category, but new additions would include carpentry, plastering and childminding


----------



## Artaxerxes (Sep 7, 2021)

bimble said:


> The government's Shortage Occupations List - the jobs where you don't need to meet the points based system (don't need to be paid "the full rate") in order to come to the UK - is an interesting read. I think likely to be tinkered with endlessly according to the needs of business.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Oh man archaeologists to.

Which given some of the fuckery in current education circles with that job is shit. It's also paid like shit, and very insecure.



> 2114Social and humanities scientists – only archaeologistsEngland, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland80% of going rate: £20,720(£10.22 per hour)



I thought Sally's next job was in cyber?



> 2135IT business analysts, architects and systems designers – all jobsEngland, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland80% of going rate: £29,280(£14.44 per hour)2136Programmers and software development professionals – all jobsEngland, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland80% of going rate: £26,640(£13.14 per hour)2137Web design and development professionals – all jobsEngland, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland80% of going rate: £20,800(£10.26 per hour)2139Information technology and communications professionals not elsewhere classified – only cyber security specialistsEngland, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland80% of going rate: £25,440(£12.54 per hour)


----------



## bimble (Sep 7, 2021)

It's a mad list, "All Artists" can come here at 80% of the going rate which is apparently £8.28 per hour. What?


----------



## Spymaster (Sep 7, 2021)

bimble said:


> I think likely to be tinkered with endlessly according to the needs of business.



That’s the point of it!


----------



## bimble (Sep 7, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> That’s the point of it!


Yes! Its great isnt it. Like it could say, 'care workers' 40% of going rate'. That would be good.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 7, 2021)

bimble said:


> It’s fine, we will just have nice blonde immigrants from Australia.


So fucking depressing; politics reduced to arguing the merits of the origin of the workers that capital will exploit in the UK.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 7, 2021)

brogdale said:


> So fucking depressing; politics reduced to arguing the merits of the origin of the workers that capital will exploit in the UK.


join the army of labour and see the world


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 7, 2021)

bimble said:


> It's a mad list, "All Artists" can come here at 80% of the going rate which is apparently £8.28 per hour. What?


you think that's mad, check out the chemical scientists (nuclear industry only)


----------



## bimble (Sep 7, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> you think that's mad, check out the chemical scientists (nuclear industry only)
> 
> View attachment 287175


That’s less surprising than the fact that we apparently need more graphic designers.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 7, 2021)

bimble said:


> That’s less surprising than the fact that we apparently need more graphic designers.


what sort of chemical scientists do you think £10.53 p/h buys? not chemists with a degree and experience within the nuclear industry, i suspect.

try as they might no artist will ever be able to cause something like this at work


----------



## bimble (Sep 7, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> what sort of chemical scientists do you think £10.53 p/h buys? not chemists with a degree and experience within the nuclear industry, i suspect.


Yeah idk. Maybe it’s a job advert to try to entice people to defect from unfriendly countries.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 7, 2021)

bimble said:


> Yeah idk. Maybe it’s a job advert to try to entice people to defect from unfriendly countries.


i don't think i'd want a defector who could be so easily bought


----------



## Spymaster (Sep 7, 2021)

bimble said:


> Yes! Its great isnt it. Like it could say, 'care workers' 40% of going rate'. That would be good.


Well I suppose it’s consistent. Remoaniacs, who are de facto supporters of exploitation of cheap EU labour, railing against limits being placed on exploitation of non-EU labour.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 7, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Well I suppose it’s consistent. Remoaniacs, who are de facto supporters of exploitation of cheap EU labour, railing against limits being placed on exploitation of non-EU labour.


by non-eu labour i don't suppose you mean the people unfortunate enough to be british and resident in the uk


----------



## brogdale (Sep 7, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Well I suppose it’s consistent. Remoaniacs, who are de facto supporters of exploitation of cheap EU labour, railing against limits being placed on exploitation of non-EU labour.


_Which side are you on boys._


----------



## philosophical (Sep 7, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Hilarious really that you assert this. The French and Germans run the EU for their own benefit. They never gave us the steam off of their piss let alone a policy driving seat.


Hilarious really if you think the pre Brexit EU was simply a German and French project.
Even more hilarious that you use the word ‘their’ when the EU was everybody, and the benefits such as they were or are are EU wide.
Research the voting/decision making structure as was to ascertain where steam from piss went.
What next?
Will you sing ‘two world wars and one world cup’ and ascertain that the French were cheese eating surrender monkeys?
Or live off the steam of the piss of your fellow brexiteers Jacob Rees Mogg and Marc Francois?


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 7, 2021)




----------



## bimble (Sep 7, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Well I suppose it’s consistent. Remoaniacs, who are de facto supporters of exploitation of cheap EU labour, railing against limits being placed on exploitation of non-EU labour.


What are you on about? You think the list is there in order to make sure people are not exploited?


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 7, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Just as “much of Leave seems stuck, unable to move beyond its victory”; a victory that came from a long-game of moaning especially following the result of the 1975 plebiscite vote to accept the U.K. state’s accession to the EEC.
> 
> The continued polarisation of electoral politics and the new long game of capital’s culture wars stem from the division and strong association with binary nature of 2016.


I read your first post regarding this and didnt quite grasp what you were trying to say,   Can you flesh out your assertion that Brexit 'came from a long-game of moaning especially following the result of the 1975 plebiscite vote to accept the U.K. state’s accession to the EEC.'?


----------



## two sheds (Sep 7, 2021)

Bendy bananas


----------



## Supine (Sep 7, 2021)

And now our waste water is becoming more poisonous. At least partially acknowledged as brexit related.


----------



## ska invita (Sep 7, 2021)

bimble said:


> I mean whilst the government talks about the glorious freedom of open market trade deals with the emerging economies of asia-pacific and all that, i do think that the act of voting leave & the idea of brexit was - for many - an 'anti globalization' choice.


smoke and mirrors
Global Britain (empire 3.0) is all about deregulation and accessing cheaper markets - the fact it was presented as the opposite is ingenious slight of hand bullshitting
Just as Farage can say (in a private video) what he really means: we need to sell off the NHS and have a US insurance model, whilst saying to the wider public getting out of the EU will be more money for the NHS
they are spectacular liars and adept and stringing people on


----------



## bimble (Sep 7, 2021)

ska invita said:


> smoke and mirrors
> Global Britain (empire 3.0) is all about deregulation and accessing cheaper markets - the fact it was presented as the opposite is ingenious slight of hand bullshitting
> Just as Farage can say (in a private video) what he really means: we need to sell off the NHS and have a US insurance model, whilst saying to the wider public getting out of the EU will be more money for the NHS
> they are spectacular liars and adept and stringing people on


Yeah I think you’re probably right, people might have voted out of anti globalisation sentiment but that’s not what brexit is going to give us at all, not in the medium / long term, quite the opposite. See also- less British food & more imports.


----------



## Supine (Sep 7, 2021)

Good article on the complexities of worker shortages and the impact on the economy.





__





						Is creating worker shortages by restricting low paid immigration a good idea?
					

The combination of Brexit, Covid, and an immigration policy that favours skilled (in practice higher paid) workers has created severe shor...




					mainlymacro.blogspot.com


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 7, 2021)

Lol


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 7, 2021)

philosophical said:


> Hilarious really if you think the pre Brexit EU was simply a German and French project.
> Even more hilarious that you use the word ‘their’ when the EU was everybody, and the benefits such as they were or are are EU wide.
> Research the voting/decision making structure as was to ascertain where steam from piss went.
> What next?
> ...



Also, up the 'RA


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 7, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> Also, up the 'RA


here's up the rebels, get back our teddy's head


----------



## andysays (Sep 7, 2021)

NoXion said:


> If you think only the UK wanted to exploit cheaper labour, then I'm afraid you're mistaken.


Whilst it isn't true that *only* the UK wanted to exploit cheaper labour, it certainly *is* true that the Thatcher government were one of those pushing hardest for greater expansion to include poorer Eastern European countries, precisely because of the possibility of greater exploitation of cheaper labour from those countries.


----------



## TopCat (Sep 7, 2021)

Supine said:


> Good article on the complexities of worker shortages and the impact on the economy.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The author must take more drugs than me.


----------



## bimble (Sep 7, 2021)

TopCat said:


> The author must take more drugs than me.


Yeah, lol at economics professors and anyone else who think stuff like this is complex & interesting, they’re all high. Immigrants = bad for Britian .


----------



## not a trot (Sep 7, 2021)

Invited to book my annual flu jab last week, (heart condition). Booked for 18th Seot. Just had text message that appointment cancelled due to freight delays.


----------



## ska invita (Sep 7, 2021)

bimble said:


> Yeah, lol at economics professors and anyone else who think stuff like this is complex & interesting, they’re all high. Immigrants = bad for Britian .


Yeah these things are incredibly complex with so many moving parts - partly what makes economics such a non-science.
For example the increase in wages for some driving work has supposedly seen a number of skilled drivers change employees to that better paid job and leaving a vacancy behind them - taking advantage of the golden handshakes also - rather than bringing new people. Leaving the overall problem unchanged.

From the piece: Its a good point made about state workers - shortages do not increase wages there.
The stuff about a drop in population from less (migrant) workers creating less demand and reducing overall profits is classic Marx - ( is it the falling rate of profitability? i never could get my head around the jargon. it might be another phrase)

There was a lot of research on this pre-referendum. My memory of it was it was expected wages would rise in small and particular pockets of low-paid work, but the effect would be very limited in the wider economy


----------



## bimble (Sep 7, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Yeah these things are incredibly complex with so many moving parts - partly what makes economics such a non-science.
> For example the increase in wages for some driving work has supposedly seen a number of skilled drivers change employees to that better paid job and leaving a vacancy behind them - taking advantage of the golden handshakes also - rather than bringing new people. Leaving the overall problem unchanged.
> 
> From the piece: Its a good point made about state workers - shortages do not increase wages there.
> ...


Yep. And council jobs, like bin lorry, will not find it easy to compete with Waitrose.
I find economics totally fascinating, it gets weirder the more you try to understand it.


----------



## not a trot (Sep 7, 2021)

not a trot said:


> Invited to book my annual flu jab last week, (heart condition). Booked for 18th Seot. Just had text message that appointment cancelled due to freight delays.


* PLEASE NOTE THAT THERE IS A NATIONAL DELAY ON THE DELIVERY OF FLU VACCINES DUE TO ROAD FREIGHT ISSUES OUTSIDE OF OUR CONTROL**

We have suspended the booking of flu vaccinations and have cancelled the existing clinics on the 18th - 24th September.

Once we have a delivery date confirmed, we will try and transfer your existing appointment time to the new date and we will update you.


----------



## Spymaster (Sep 7, 2021)

bimble said:


> Yes! Its great isnt it. Like it could say, 'care workers' 40% of going rate'. That would be good.



Don't be silly.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 7, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Can you flesh out your assertion that Brexit 'came from a long-game of moaning especially following the result of the 1975 plebiscite vote to accept the U.K. state’s accession to the EEC.'?


This Wiki page has some useful lists of Anti Common Market/EEC/EC/EU pressure groups and parties towards the bottom of the page. Although some deserve a little more digging like the UKIP listing that misses its Anti-federalist league origins.

For more depth, this thesis is pretty useful:
https://etheses.bham.ac.uk/id/eprint/5266/1/Richardson14PhD.pdf

Enjoy!


----------



## two sheds (Sep 7, 2021)

Plus our esteemed PM made a career out of lying about it all over several years.


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 7, 2021)

Guardian letters



> There are about 600,000 people holding LGV cat C (rigid truck) or cat C+E (articulated lorry) licences in the UK who do not currently drive trucks for a living. Why would they want to return to the job? Facilities are poor, the hours brutal and the responsibilities onerous.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Sep 7, 2021)

Drain the swamp









						Polluters told to dump risky sewage into rivers as Brexit disrupts water treatment
					

Polluters told they can dump risky sewage into rivers due to Brexit




					www.independent.co.uk


----------



## TopCat (Sep 7, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Guardian letters


They were on this about on Woman's Hour this morning. They made much mention of shifts and hours putting off women from joining and emphasised strength was not a needed quality. 

I was hoping they might have continued with consideration for simple needs like toilets and showers and safe park ups. 

I doubt many women would accept regularly crapping in a lay-by and improved conditions would benefit everyone inc Kent residents moaning about piss bottles everywhere. 

Further, one woman who owned a haulage company was interviewed at length. They were washing their hands of any responsibility for providing or arranging stop off facilities. No mention of getting their trade associations involved or investing in the facilities their drivers need and increasingly demand.


----------



## TopCat (Sep 7, 2021)

£10 an hour job. Must self invest minimum of £3000 up front and accept regular drug tests. Crapping in a lay-by compulsory. Must like being away from family for elongated periods of time. Poor prospects and longevity not usual. 
Apply within or get a job in Lidl paying more per hour for stacking shelves. Choose. 
Oh! You don’t fancy it? Why should anyone!


----------



## Raheem (Sep 7, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Drain the swamp



Give the floaters what they want!


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 7, 2021)

TopCat said:


> £10 an hour job. Must self invest minimum of £3000 up front and accept regular drug tests. Crapping in a lay-by compulsory. Must like being away from family for elongated periods of time. Poor prospects and longevity not usual.
> Apply within or get a job in Lidl paying more per hour for stacking shelves. Choose.
> Oh! You don’t fancy it? Why should anyone!


Yes but prices will rise


----------



## bimble (Sep 8, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Yes but prices will rise






The39thStep said:


> " But what about rising prices?"





The39thStep said:


> Yes but prices will rise



Can you explain this joke please? Is it that you think prices will not rise as a result of brexit or is it that you think more expensive food is a thing that will only impact rich out of touch remoaniacs ?


----------



## Yossarian (Sep 8, 2021)

bimble said:


> Can you explain this joke please? Is it that you think prices will not rise as a result of brexit or is it that you think more expensive food is a thing that will only impact rich out of touch remoaniacs ?



Somebody on Twitter complained about rising wages for lorry drivers causing food prices to rise, and people kind of ran with it,


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Sep 8, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> Somebody on Twitter complained about rising wages for lorry drivers causing food prices to rise, and people kind of ran with it,



It’s a fairly common complaint of the middle classes as to why the lower orders should not be paid a decent wage, tbf. See also, tube drivers.


----------



## Yossarian (Sep 8, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> It’s a fairly common complaint of the middle classes as to why the lower orders should not be paid a decent wage, tbf. See also, tube drivers.



Yep, though I can't recall anybody here making that argument and being rightfully pilloried for doing so.


----------



## andysays (Sep 8, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> Yep, though I can't recall anybody here making that argument and being rightfully pilloried for doing so.


A few people certainly seemed a bit put out by the suggestion that the era of cheap food might be over.

I'm on my phone ATM so can't be bothered to check exactly who, but I'm sure it's there if you have a look.


----------



## bimble (Sep 8, 2021)

Yeah i still don't get it .
If food does get more expensive, it's not Remoaniacs who will feel it first because obvs we are all rich and shop at waitrose anyway.
And if people think the supermarkets are_ not _going to pass on their increased costs to shoppers i'd like to know why you think that.


----------



## Saul Goodman (Sep 8, 2021)

bimble said:


> Yeah i still don't get it .
> If food does get more expensive, it's not Remoaniacs who will feel it first because obvs we are all rich and shop at waitrose anyway.
> And if people think the supermarkets are_ not _going to pass on their increased costs to shoppers i'd like to know why you think that.


I hope everyone has to pay enough to afford everyone else a decent wage, but I can't see wages increasing to cover those costs.


----------



## Spymaster (Sep 8, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> It’s a fairly common complaint of the middle classes as to why the lower orders should not be paid a decent wage, tbf. See also, tube drivers.



Well this is the primary selfishness of the remoniac argument isn't it? "Me, me, me, me, me".


----------



## bimble (Sep 8, 2021)

Making jokes about food prices going up, like its a ridiculous middle class thing to be concerned about, seems not just illogical but also pretty off to me, given that hundreds of thousands of people already rely on food banks, universal credit is about to be cut and NI hiked. I mean, I'll be fine, i can pay more for my avocados no problem, but i dont get the joke.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Sep 8, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Well this is the primary selfishness of the remoniac argument isn't it? "Me, me, me, me, me".




Thatcher's children


----------



## Yossarian (Sep 8, 2021)

bimble said:


> Making jokes about food prices going up, like its a ridiculous middle class thing to be concerned about, seems not just illogical but also pretty off to me, given that hundreds of thousands of people already rely on food banks, universal credit is about to be cut and NI hiked. I mean, I'll be fine, i can pay more for my avocados no problem, but i dont get the joke.



Yep, food price rises aren't something to joke about in a country where almost a third of children live in poverty - and yet it's somehow acceptable for supermarkets to pass the cost of paying workers a fair wage on to the consumer, not to shareholders who might have to deal with the horror of lower dividends.


----------



## bimble (Sep 8, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> Yep, food price rises aren't something to joke about in a country where almost a third of children live in poverty - and yet it's somehow acceptable for supermarkets to pass the cost of paying workers a fair wage on to the consumer, not to shareholders who might have to deal with the horror of lower dividends.


Well that's the thing, people joking about it do they think that its the shareholders will take the hit ?


----------



## brogdale (Sep 8, 2021)

Increasing prices faster than wages (green above red line below) creating negative real wage 'growth'. has long been capital's coping mechanism response to recession. If unearned income (dividends) is to be maintained, it's a no-brainer.


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 8, 2021)

But food prices might go up................

From Retail Gazette



> Sainsbury’s recently-appointed chief executive Simon Roberts was paid a £583,000 bonus in his first nine months on the job despite the grocer posting a £261 million full year loss.
> 
> Roberts’ fixed salary being £736,000, his total pay for the year ending March 6 – less than a year after he stepped into the chief executive role – was £1.32 million.
> 
> ...


----------



## bimble (Sep 8, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> But food prices might go up................
> 
> From Retail Gazette


Do you think that the lorry drivers increased pay will come out of these people’s salaries ? It won’t.


----------



## Supine (Sep 8, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Well this is the primary selfishness of the remoniac argument isn't it? "Me, me, me, me, me".



Literally the opposite of the case though isn’t it. Remain (not remoan) was about ‘us’ being europeans as opposed to brexiteers who wanted us and ‘them’ europeans.


----------



## philosophical (Sep 8, 2021)

Supine said:


> Literally the opposite of the case though isn’t it. Remain (not remoan) was about ‘us’ being europeans as opposed to brexiteers who wanted us and ‘them’ europeans.



I agree with this. The selfish ones are those who voted for and support Brexit.
The ones for example who sneer at the concept of cooperation with others in Europe, and blithely say that other Europeans would not give you the steam off their piss.
Selfish and indeed racist Brexit cunts who hold that view.
But those cunts won and are now in charge….selfishness formalised and embedded in the land.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Sep 8, 2021)

bimble said:


> Do you think that the lorry drivers increased pay will come out of these people’s salaries ? It won’t.




Wilfully missing the point. Lorry drivers get an increase to make a decent wage = prices will go up. Executives get obscene pay rises + bonuses = nothing, not a peep.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Sep 8, 2021)

Supine said:


> Literally the opposite of the case though isn’t it. Remain (not remoan) was about ‘us’ being europeans as opposed to brexiteers who wanted us and ‘them’ europeans.




You still are a European. As are Serbians too.


----------



## Supine (Sep 8, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> You still are a European. As are Serbians too.



You know full well what I mean


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Sep 8, 2021)

Supine said:


> You know full well what I mean




The right kind of European.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 8, 2021)

Supine said:


> Literally the opposite of the case though isn’t it. Remain (not remoan) was about ‘us’ being europeans as opposed to brexiteers who wanted us and ‘them’ europeans.



But getting hung up on the affective domain stuff like this is the mirror of the vacuous, superficial "take back control" tosh. Either side can project what it likes on the motives of the other but we're left with the neoliberal reality that survives whatever.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 8, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Wilfully missing the point. Lorry drivers get an increase to make a decent wage = prices will go up. Executives get obscene pay rises + bonuses = nothing, not a peep.


Maybe true, but those executives are remunerated so obscenely precisely because they will ensure that any cost-push inflation for the corporation will be passed onto consumers. To do otherwise would threaten the very reason for their role which is to protect dividends to shareholders at all cost. Functional distribution of income stuff, innit?


----------



## Supine (Sep 8, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Either side can project what it likes on the motives of the other but we're left with the neoliberal reality that survives whatever.



Neoliberal wasn’t on the ballet. I’d have thought neoliberalism with European checks and balances would be better than a Tory far right version we’ll get with Brexit.


----------



## bimble (Sep 8, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Wilfully missing the point. Lorry drivers get an increase to make a decent wage = prices will go up. Executives get obscene pay rises + bonuses = nothing, not a peep.


The Point that I’m missing is that there are people who are massively overpaid ? How is that a point though. I mean,  I know that, it’s always been true & its not going to change as a result of brexit. We were talking about food prices going up. You can say that instead of food prices going up these people should be paid less, or shareholders should take the hit, but it won’t actually happen that way will it.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Sep 8, 2021)

bimble said:


> The Point that I’m missing is that there are people who are massive overpaid ? How is that a point, I know that, it’s not going to change as a result of brexit. We were talking about food prices going up.




Why are food prices going to go up?


----------



## bimble (Sep 8, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Why are food prices going to go up?


Because it’s either that or smaller profits for the supermarkets (and importers and farm owners etc) I think they will not choose smaller profits.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 8, 2021)

Supine said:


> Neoliberal wasn’t on the ballet. I’d have thought neoliberalism with European checks and balances would be better than a Tory far right version we’ll get with Brexit.


The trouble is that it was on the ballot....twice over.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Sep 8, 2021)

bimble said:


> Because it’s either that or smaller profits for the supermarkets. I think they will not choose smaller profits.



Why smaller profits?


----------



## bimble (Sep 8, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Why smaller profits?


Difference between cost price and sale price is smaller when your costs go up.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Sep 8, 2021)

bimble said:


> Difference between cost price and sale price is smaller when your costs go up.




So lowering the staffing costs increases the profits?


----------



## bimble (Sep 8, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> So lowering the staffing costs increases the profits?


If Jeff Bezos paid staff properly would he have bought himself a penis shaped space rocket?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Sep 8, 2021)

bimble said:


> If Jeff Bezos paid staff properly would he have bought himself a penis shaped space rocket?





Before you tried to shift them goalposts to US tax-dodgers you were talking about UK supermarkets, something about increasing the lowly workers' pay to a decent level would mean prices go up whilst massively increasing the executives' pay and bonuses is just one of those forces of nature, like tides and seasons and shit, no?


----------



## bimble (Sep 8, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Many Amazon staff are paid a very decent wage, note there are not driver shortages at Amazon right now.
> 
> Before you tried to shift them goalposts to US tax-dodgers you were talking about UK supermarkets, something about increasing the lowly workers' pay to a decent level would mean prices go up whilst massively increasing the executives' pay and bonuses is just one of those forces of nature, like tides and seasons and shit, no?


Look, if you think that the supermarkets will choose to cut executive pay or reduce shareholder dividends instead of raising the prices of food, I dunno what to tell you really. Let’s see.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Sep 8, 2021)

bimble said:


> Look, if you think that the supermarkets will choose to cut executive pay or reduce shareholder dividends instead of raising the prices of food, I dunno what to tell you really. Let’s see.




Oh


----------



## Raheem (Sep 8, 2021)

Driver's wages are not going to push up prices, because they're such a tiny component of retail prices in the scheme of things. Drivers seem to be getting pay rises ranging from nothing to the equivalent of a few pounds a day. If a driver's day's work is taking a lorry load of eggs from Cardiff to Coventry, what's that per egg?

Otoh, if the eggs have to be destroyed too often because it was not possible to deliver them in time, that will push up prices.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Sep 8, 2021)

Raheem said:


> Driver's wages are not going to push up prices, because they're such a tiny component of retail prices in the scheme of things. Drivers seem to be getting pay rises ranging from nothing to the equivalent of a few pounds a day. If a driver's day's work is taking a lorry load of eggs from Cardiff to Coventry, what's that per egg?
> 
> Otoh, if the eggs have to be destroyed too often because it was not possible to deliver them in time, that will push up prices.




No need to destroy them, re-deploy them to Westminster to be lobbed at the venerable 650.


----------



## bimble (Sep 8, 2021)

Just because i think food prices are going to go up doesn't mean i'm under the impression that it's some kind of force of nature/ fact of life. I mean, I know that the price of a thing on a supermarket shelf is the result of a series of choices made by a bunch of people all trying to make a profit, who could theoretically choose to act differently, but that doesn't change my view that it will happen.


----------



## Supine (Sep 8, 2021)

The race to the bottom continues at pace









						UK secretly dropped climate promise for trade deal with Australia, leaked emails show
					

Australia pressured the UK not to include binding clauses on the Paris Agreement




					www.independent.co.uk


----------



## mojo pixy (Sep 8, 2021)

Morrisons prices have all gone up 5-10p in the last few weeks. I don't think that's brexit, or drivers. It's to maximise cash flow because of the recent billion-pound sale of the company.

(Edit for unfinished accidentally posted post)


----------



## brogdale (Sep 8, 2021)

mojo pixy said:


> Morrisons prices have all gone up 5-10p in the last few weeks. I don't think that's brexit, or drivers. It's to maximise cash flow because of the recent billion


There's an element of self-fulfilling prophesy here, as well. Having established the notion of rising prices (for whatever reasons) in the customers' mind-sets, the corporate retailers find themselves in a 'sweet-spot' where they can do so without much shock or response from the public. Furthermore, the old unwritten cartel mentality kicks in and they know that they're not under pressure to undercut each other with the expectation of inflation firmly established.


----------



## Raheem (Sep 8, 2021)

As a keen student of Morrisons prices, I can tell you that they have not all gone up 5-10p in the last few weeks.


----------



## bimble (Sep 8, 2021)

brogdale said:


> There's an element of self-fulfilling prophesy here, as well. Having established the notion of rising prices (for whatever reasons) in the customers' mind-sets, the corporate retailers find themselves in a 'sweet-spot' where they can do so without much shock or response from the public. Furthermore, the old unwritten cartel mentality kicks in and they know that they're not under pressure to undercut each other with the expectation of inflation firmly established.


Yeah I did wonder that. If you put into google ‘brexit’ and ‘food prices’ there’s now hundreds of articles telling us to be ready to pay more.


----------



## TopCat (Sep 8, 2021)

brogdale said:


> There's an element of self-fulfilling prophesy here, as well. Having established the notion of rising prices (for whatever reasons) in the customers' mind-sets, the corporate retailers find themselves in a 'sweet-spot' where they can do so without much shock or response from the public. Furthermore, the old unwritten cartel mentality kicks in and they know that they're not under pressure to undercut each other with the expectation of inflation firmly established.


Not sure about that. If Lidl prices go up I go to Aldi.


----------



## TopCat (Sep 8, 2021)

bimble said:


> Yeah I did wonder that. If you put into google ‘brexit’ and ‘food prices’ there’s now hundreds of articles telling us to be ready to pay more.


Read them all, then don’t pay more. Buy something else if you can. Go elsewhere.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 8, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Not sure about that. If Lidl prices go up I go to Aldi.


We too...but when Aldi's also go up...?


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 8, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Read them all, then don’t pay more. Buy something else if you can. Go elsewhere.


I'm sure there are problems unique to the UK however if you just put  'food prices' into google it throws up loads of stories about rising prices  and about crop failure due to extreme weather, transportation costs going through the roof , problems at slaughterhouses due to covid etc. 

Supermarket food prices were up 5% here in June following a 3% rise over the last 12 months.


----------



## bimble (Sep 8, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Buy something else if you can. Go elsewhere.


Genius idea. Thanks.


----------



## mojo pixy (Sep 8, 2021)

Raheem said:


> As a keen student of Morrisons prices, I can tell you that they have not all gone up 5-10p in the last few weeks.


I shop in my local Morrisons weekly and everything I buy (everything with a price tag rather than by weight, that is) seems to have gone up by either 5p or 10p. I don't buy everything they stock, though, and there are still offers.


----------



## Ming (Sep 8, 2021)

bimble said:


> If Jeff Bezos paid staff properly would he have bought himself a penis shaped space rocket?


I wonder if he insisted to the aerospace engineers that it must look like a cock? I’ve got this scene in my head of the scientists going ‘well it’s not the most aerodynamic option Mr Bezos’. And their internal dialogue’s like ‘Well a cheques a cheque’.


----------



## Raheem (Sep 8, 2021)

Maybe he had no specific design ideas and one engineer said to another "Dare you to make it look like a cock".


----------



## seeformiles (Sep 9, 2021)

There were no chickens in my local Aldi yesterday. I didn’t really fancy chicken anyway (so was secretly pleased) but Mrs SFM was a bit put out as she had her heart set on a poultry dinner. Thank you Brexit 😎


----------



## SpookyFrank (Sep 9, 2021)

mojo pixy said:


> Morrisons prices have all gone up 5-10p in the last few weeks. I don't think that's brexit, or drivers. It's to maximise cash flow because of the recent billion-pound sale of the company.
> 
> (Edit for unfinished accidentally posted post)



Asda has also been sold with a huge debt burden.


----------



## TopCat (Sep 9, 2021)

Lidl pay their lorry drivers better than most and have done so for some time. Full shelves.


----------



## Supine (Sep 9, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Full shelves.



A quick google shows that isn’t true


----------



## ska invita (Sep 9, 2021)

Supine said:


> A quick google shows that isn’t true


ITs always true as its all in the eye of the beholder










						Hauliers ‘boycotting’ Lidl over driver shortage response
					

A lack of drivers across the UK is forcing haulage companies to rationalise their supermarket deliveries




					www.thegrocer.co.uk
				



"Lidl is particularly unpopular among haulage companies who claim there is now a “universal reluctance” to deliver to their sites."


----------



## TopCat (Sep 9, 2021)

Donaldson threatens to trigger elections over the NI protocol and closer ties to the Republic. Elections they could well lose giving Sinn Fein control. Maybe a bluff but he has no where else to go in satisfying his constituency. 









						DUP may walk out of Stormont power-sharing over Brexit protocol
					

Jeffrey Donaldson says DUP is ‘totally opposed to Northern Ireland protocol as it presently exists’




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Flavour (Sep 9, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Lidl pay their lorry drivers better than most and have done so for some time. Full shelves.


Not true in Italy, in fact their scabs killed a picketer as recently as June this year:








						Union leader killed in Italy when truck forces picket line
					

ROME (AP) — A labor union leader was killed in northern Italy when a truck apparently broke through a picket line outside a supermarket warehouse facility Friday and struck him.  Italian Premier Mario Draghi expressed sorrow for the death of Adil Belakhdim, 37, and said “it's necessary that...




					apnews.com
				




edited to add: Lidl's low prices are partly made possible by the incredible economies of scale achieved through having a Europe-wide network of supermarkets operated very centrally indeed: as evidenced by the number of products that are Made in Germany. So this is relevant to UK workers too. I doubt they get better treatment from Lidl by virtue of being in the UK


----------



## bimble (Sep 9, 2021)

NoXion said:


> Oh no. One provider is introducing roaming charges, giving customers a reason to switch to a rival who hasn't done that. It's hardly the apocalypse, is it?


One provider left now which is Not doing roaming charges. 

‘just go to a different shop’ 🙂


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Sep 9, 2021)

bimble said:


> One provider left now which is Not doing roaming charges.
> 
> ‘just go to a different shop’ 🙂




One? TalkTalk, Sky and O2...and many other smaller ones...


----------



## bimble (Sep 9, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> One? TalkTalk, Sky and O2...and many other smaller ones...


I dunno I have no idea how many companies there are but this says there’s now only one ‘major ‘ one left. Anyway it was more the recurring idea that just shop somewhere else is any kind of a solution to structural changes.








						Three becomes latest mobile firm to bring back roaming charges
					

End to almost five years of free roaming across Europe will come into effect from 23 May 2022




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Sep 9, 2021)

bimble said:


> I dunno I have no idea how many companies there are but this says there’s now only one ‘major ‘ one left. Anyway it was more the recurring idea that just shop somewhere else is any kind of a solution to structural changes.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Sky of course a minor operation in telecommunications and the Guardian as ever is on the money


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Sep 9, 2021)

Not really sure what the fuss is though, £2 a day to roam, £28 to use your phone all day, every day on a 2 week holiday...


----------



## Raheem (Sep 9, 2021)

I think it depends what you call roaming charges. EE still don't have roaming charges, but have introduced a cap on data usage abroad (which apparently would also be fine according to EU rules).


----------



## bimble (Sep 9, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Sky of course a minor operation in telecommunications and the Guardian as ever is on the money


It is not a separate thing from 02 I think but feck knows how all that works.


----------



## Raheem (Sep 9, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Not really sure what the fuss is though, £2 a day to roam, £28 to use your phone all day, every day on a 2 week holiday...


Just £140 for a family of five.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 9, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Not really sure what the fuss is though, £2 a day to roam, £28 to use your phone all day, every day on a 2 week holiday...


if you're stopping in a hotel then it wouldn't be too bad as you can just turn on the wifi and call via whatsapp etc. of course if you're off in the back of beyond things may be rather different.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Sep 9, 2021)

bimble said:


> It is not a separate thing from 02 I think but feck knows how all that works.



Sky uses O2's network, separate companies though, not every operator can have a network, there'd be millions of masts of that were the case. It works in the same way that you can choose your energy supplier, but you don't get new cables and pipes.


----------



## bimble (Sep 9, 2021)

It’s not a big deal at all the mobile roaming thing, it’s just an inconvenience, the loss of a nice little perk.
Just think it’s an example of how ‘just go to a different shop’ is a crap answer to these changes that brexit brings.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Sep 9, 2021)

Raheem said:


> Just £140 for a family of five.




If a family of five goes on holiday and all of them spends each day on their fucking phones I have zero fucks to give how much they pay for that kind of behaviour.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 9, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> If a family of five goes on holiday and all of them spends each day on their fucking phones I have zero fucks to give how much they pay for that kind of behaviour.


if a family of five goes on holiday together, don't interact at all, and are glued to their phones the entire time then why the fuck are going somewhere they won't even notice


----------



## two sheds (Sep 9, 2021)

To catch up with their mates on the phone, obv


----------



## bimble (Sep 9, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Sky uses O2's network, separate companies though, not every operator can have a network, there'd be millions of masts of that were the case. It works in the same way that you can choose your energy supplier, but you don't get new cables and pipes.


So could Sky be no roaming changes whilst O2 imposed them? Only a tiny bit interested either way tbh.


----------



## Badgers (Sep 9, 2021)

Have a holiday from your mobile  

I used to just pick up a local SIM when I was abroad. Hardly a faff


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Sep 9, 2021)

bimble said:


> So could Sky be no roaming changes whilst O2 imposed them? Only a tiny bit interested either way tbh.




Could be, it's up to each operator to charge what they want. O2 btw isn't charging roaming, they have recently reminded their punters about their fair use policy, a policy they've had in place for years.


----------



## bimble (Sep 9, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Could be, it's up to each operator to charge what they want. O2 btw isn't charging roaming, they have recently reminded their punters about their fair use policy, a policy they've had in place for years.


Yes I know they’re the one cited as the remaining provider who isn’t.


----------



## Smangus (Sep 9, 2021)

Flavour said:


> Not true in Italy, in fact their scabs killed a picketer as recently as June this year:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Also they are still a privately owned company iirc, no shareholders to please which allowed them to undercut the other supermarkets in the first place. The money goes back into the business. Not saying they shouldn't pay staff more etc, but their lack of shareholder obligations gives them a competitive edge in that sector.


----------



## Chz (Sep 9, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> One? TalkTalk, Sky and O2...and many other smaller ones...


All of which are on the O2 network (as well as perennial favourite around here, GiffGaff).
If O2 introduce charges, you can bet the lot of them will.


----------



## Chz (Sep 9, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Sky of course a minor operation in telecommunications and the Guardian as ever is on the money


Sky don't have their own network, so yes they're a minor player. Hell, Sky Mobile is less than 5 years old.


----------



## bimble (Sep 9, 2021)

UK has been in Germany's top ten trading partners for the last 70 years this says but isn't any more.
 Lidl will be fine its our exports that aren't.








						EXCLUSIVE Britain no longer in top 10 for trade with Germany as Brexit bites
					

Britain is on course to lose its status as one of Germany's top 10 trading partners this year for the first time since 1950, as Brexit-related trade barriers drive firms in Europe's largest economy to look for business elsewhere.




					mobile.reuters.com


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 9, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Have a holiday from your mobile
> 
> I used to just pick up a local SIM when I was abroad. Hardly a faff


I’m in the countryside and out of about 15 cafe bars I know only one doesn’t have WiFi. People who don’t have internet at home just go the cafes . 
Ive still got a virgin contract ( as well as a Meo one) and that just has a fair use policy.


----------



## Supine (Sep 9, 2021)

More costs









						PayPal raises fees between UK and Europe
					

PayPal is bringing in a new fee for commercial transactions between the UK and EEA.



					www.bbc.com


----------



## gosub (Sep 9, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> if a family of five goes on holiday together, don't interact at all, and are glued to their phones the entire time then why the fuck are going somewhere they won't even notice


|If it isnt on instagram it didn't happen type people.  Phone wankers


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 9, 2021)

gosub said:


> |If it isnt on instagram it didn't happen type people.  Phone wankers


They are the real zombies


----------



## Badgers (Sep 9, 2021)

> Brexit pre-settled status: EU nationals in UK face losing out on jobs and housing





> Some people cannot prove they are in the country legally because of glitch in digital residency permits







__





						Brexit pre-settled status: EU nationals in UK face losing out on jobs and housing  | Brexit | The Guardian
					






					amp-theguardian-com.cdn.ampproject.org


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 9, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> if a family of five goes on holiday together, don't interact at all, and are glued to their phones the entire time then why the fuck are going somewhere they won't even notice



Fuck, yeah


----------



## Badgers (Sep 9, 2021)

Why eastern European truckers are not planning to return to the UK
					






					amp-ft-com.cdn.ampproject.org


----------



## bimble (Sep 9, 2021)

The FT wants people to pay £53 a Month to subscribe ! Who does that?


----------



## Badgers (Sep 9, 2021)




----------



## Badgers (Sep 9, 2021)




----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 9, 2021)

bimble said:


> The FT wants people to pay £53 a Month to subscribe ! Who does that?


People whose employers don't subscribe I suppose


----------



## Duncan2 (Sep 9, 2021)

A Propos of nothing-our terrifically stingy Logistics employer lobbed us an extra quid per hour backdated to the first of this month.This had previously been confidently assumed by all parties to be a thing that can't happen.Hopefully this will prove to be just the down-payment with more substantial tranches to be forthcoming in the Spring


----------



## andysays (Sep 9, 2021)

Badgers said:


> View attachment 287537


Bloody foreigners, *not* coming over here doing our jobs...


----------



## Badgers (Sep 9, 2021)

UK to delay imminent new Brexit border checks on food amid shortages
					

The government had said businesses should prepare for an October deadline, but legislation revealed delays for some products




					www.independent.co.uk


----------



## Aladdin (Sep 9, 2021)

I bought something from the UK on ebay a month ago. It never arrived. Tracked it only to see that an post had returned it because the customs declaration was not correct.
Seller quite communicative with lots of messages..but essentially putting the blame on an Post and brexit and customs etc. 
So seller got pissed off at me for opening a case on Ebay and then after I heard nothing I opened case in paypal. Seller got very vocal telling me I shouldnt have done that so I closed paypal case but by then Ebay had closed the ebay case because the seller had made a bit of a thing about my paypal case.
So the parcel has been returned to sender by an Post. Seller says they have  ot received it and quite frankly I doubt I will see any money back. 
Pissed off with myself for being fucking duped. 

And fuck brexit.


----------



## Badgers (Sep 9, 2021)

Eddie Mair: "But what about people who changed their minds between then and now?" (about Brexit)

Liz Truss: "I don’t think people have their changed their minds"

Eddie Mair: "You have"

Liz Truss: "I have that’s true"

#ToryScum


----------



## Badgers (Sep 9, 2021)

#ToryScum


----------



## Badgers (Sep 9, 2021)

__





						Inflation set to surge this autumn as Brexit and Covid combine | Inflation | The Guardian
					

Worker shortages and problems with global supply chains together create ‘perfect storm’, say business leaders




					amp.theguardian.com


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 9, 2021)

But prices will rise


----------



## Supine (Sep 9, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> But prices will rise



so?


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 9, 2021)

Supine said:


> so?


My thoughts entirely.


----------



## Supine (Sep 9, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> My thoughts entirely.



So why say it?


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 9, 2021)

Supine said:


> So why say it?


To  save anyone else in here who normally greets pay rises or improved staff retention schemes with ‘but prices will rise ‘ the bother .


----------



## Badgers (Sep 9, 2021)




----------



## Yossarian (Sep 9, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> To  save anyone else in here who normally greets pay rises or improved staff retention schemes with ‘but prices will rise ‘ the bother .



Wasn't that just somebody you saw post on Twitter once?


----------



## Supine (Sep 9, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> To  save anyone else in here who normally greets pay rises or improved staff retention schemes with ‘but prices will rise ‘ the bother .



Earlier on the subject of food price rises, due to brexit, I said ‘prices will rise *which will disproportionately effect the poor*’

The second half of that statement was important no?


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Sep 9, 2021)




----------



## Badgers (Sep 9, 2021)

British Council to shut offices in Europe and beyond amid financial crisis
					

Cultural and diplomatic institution to close offices in 11 countries from Belgium to the United States.




					www.politico.eu


----------



## Elpenor (Sep 9, 2021)

Turns out adverts on buses don’t necessarily mean anything.


----------



## bimble (Sep 10, 2021)

Supine said:


> Earlier on the subject of food price rises, due to brexit, I said ‘prices will rise *which will disproportionately effect the poor*’
> 
> The second half of that statement was important no?


no don't be silly, its a funny joke, the whole idea of food being more expensive.   








						'I already go without so my son can eat and universal credit cut will make us suffer even more'
					

Major study highlights impact of ending £20-a-month uplift, leaving claimants £1,040 a year worse off




					inews.co.uk


----------



## Artaxerxes (Sep 10, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> But prices will rise




Coffee still tastes like piss though


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 10, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> But prices will rise











						Disastrous season means UK shoppers could pay 50% more for pasta
					

Price of durum wheat up by 90% after drought devastates harvest in Canada, one of the biggest producers




					www.theguardian.com
				



They surely will


----------



## bimble (Sep 10, 2021)

Looking at the trade deal with Australia its kind of amazing what the Uk has agreed. Not just that they dumped the climate goals because Australia asked them to but we are basically going to take, tariff free, as much meat as they feel like sending over here.

"Tariff elimination on this scale through a free trade agreement is almost unprecedented... Remarkably, it is not clear what UK negotiators managed to extract in reciprocal concessions."

Basically they can import as much lamb & beef to us as they want to (4 or 5 times more than the quota that existed for imports from all EU countries together) with zero tariffs.









						Australia sweeps the table in the UK trade deal
					

Tariff elimination on this scale through a free trade agreement is almost unprecedented.




					www.lowyinstitute.org
				




I reckon that the best explanation is that the government know that the UK meat farming industry is not going to survive anyway (with end of Eu subsidies and Eu workers) and that's why they gave Australia this amazing deal.
It's either that or it was just desperation for any deal idk.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 10, 2021)

bimble said:


> Looking at the trade deal with Australia its kind of amazing what the Uk has agreed. Not just that they dumped the climate goals because Australia asked them to but we are basically open to import as much meat as they feel like sending over here.
> 
> "Tariff elimination on this scale through a free trade agreement is almost unprecedented... Remarkably, it is not clear what UK negotiators managed to extract in reciprocal concessions."
> 
> ...


Free trade fundamentalists really are citizens of nowhere.


----------



## bimble (Sep 10, 2021)

But do they think the voters here don't care whether uk farming survives and don't care whether our food comes from the other side of the planet? I think people do care, but maybe not enough and too abstract to hurt at election times.


----------



## TopCat (Sep 10, 2021)

bimble said:


> But do they think the voters here don't care whether uk farming survives and don't care whether our food comes from the other side of the planet?


Most would bet on uk farming surviving and have never objected to say New Zealand Lamb imports.


----------



## bimble (Sep 10, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Most would bet on uk farming surviving and have never objected to say New Zealand Lamb imports.


Yeah but there won't be tafiffs any more, which means we will have much much more lamb from the other side of the world. Aus & new zealand can make cheaper meat cos their farms are bigger & welfare standards lower. 









						Farmers fear long-term impact of New Zealand trade deal - Farmers Weekly
					

British farmers fear they could be undercut and their livelihoods put at risk by cheap food imports in a post-Brexit trade deal with New Zealand. It is




					www.fwi.co.uk
				











						Put out to pasture? Britain’s farmers fear surge of imports from Australia
					

A trade deal could expose UK agriculture to the economic power of the southern hemisphere’s giant livestock ranches




					www.theguardian.com
				




The trade deal with America will be interesting.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 10, 2021)

bimble said:


> But do they think the voters here don't care whether uk farming survives and don't care whether our food comes from the other side of the planet? I think people do care, but maybe not enough and too abstract to hurt at election times.


The tories don't need the votes of the farmers now that the electorates of the former coalfields queue up to vote for them.


----------



## Supine (Sep 10, 2021)

brogdale said:


> The tories don't need the votes of the farmers now that the electorates of the former coalfields queue up to vote for them.



the tories don’t need to worry about the farmers because labour never try to represent them / win them over.


----------



## discokermit (Sep 10, 2021)

farmers are scum.


----------



## Supine (Sep 10, 2021)

discokermit said:


> farmers are scum.



Sounds like you have some unresolved farmers issues


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 10, 2021)

(((farmerbarleymow)))


----------



## bimble (Sep 10, 2021)

brogdale said:


> The tories don't need the votes of the farmers now that the electorates of the former coalfields queue up to vote for them.


A brexit benefit! (for the conservative party)


----------



## Yossarian (Sep 10, 2021)

Supine said:


> Sounds like you have some unresolved farmers issues


----------



## Badgers (Sep 10, 2021)

The government can't fix the lorry driver shortage until it admits it was caused by Brexit
					

They know that Brexit lies at the heart of what is happening, and that what’s happening must therefore be ignored




					inews-co-uk.cdn.ampproject.org


----------



## editor (Sep 10, 2021)

bimble said:


> Yeah but there won't be tafiffs any more, which means we will have much much more lamb from the other side of the world. Aus & new zealand can make cheaper meat cos their farms are bigger & welfare standards lower.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


And then there's the huge added environmental cost of hauling dead animals half way across the planet.


----------



## _Russ_ (Sep 10, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> (((farmerbarleymow)))


Hmm, your pic coupled with the post number is interesting


----------



## _Russ_ (Sep 10, 2021)

discokermit said:


> farmers are scum.


I wouldnt go quite that far, There are a few good uns but comparatively few GAF about much beyond how to wangle the best suubsidies and/or killing stuff that gets in the way of their productivity (Even if it really doesnt, Badgers, foxes etc)


----------



## TopCat (Sep 10, 2021)

bimble said:


> Yeah but there won't be tafiffs any more, which means we will have much much more lamb from Aus & also new zealand. They can make cheaper meat cos their farms are bigger & welfare standards lower. The trade deal with America will be interesting.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Badgers said:


> The government can't fix the lorry driver shortage until it admits it was caused by Brexit
> 
> 
> They know that Brexit lies at the heart of what is happening, and that what’s happening must therefore be ignored
> ...


You can tell where badgers quoted article is coming from with this snippet, "The issue isn’t really pay. HGV drivers aren’t remunerated particularly badly.".


----------



## bimble (Sep 10, 2021)

This is not news but i missed it at the time and think it's interesting:
There's a man called Tim Leunig, eccentric academic economist & old friend of Cummings. He has a job in the government as 'Economic Adviser to the Chancellor'.
In emails that got leaked early last year, he opined that it would be perfectly fine if the UK just stopped having an agriculture sector and instead imported all of its food, like Singapore, saying "the Food sector isn't critically important to the UK, and agriculture and fish production certainly isn't."    The leaks embarrassed the gov a bit but he's still there, advising the treasury.








						'Completely out of touch': Anger as leaked emails suggest UK doesn’t need farmers
					

Farmers have widely criticised comments by a senior government official for suggesting that Britain does not need its own agricultural industry.




					www.farminguk.com
				



Even in their angry response at the time, the national farmers union rep says "Clearly, there is a cold economic case but.. "


----------



## Badgers (Sep 10, 2021)

Everyday Philosophy: The sense of nothingness surrounding Brexit
					

How will shoppers adapt to empty shelves in supermarkets? NIGEL WARBURTON, one of the world’s most-read philosophers, offers his thoughts.




					www.theneweuropean.co.uk


----------



## Badgers (Sep 10, 2021)

UK dairy farms told to throw milk away due to shortage of lorry drivers
					

Lack of workers in food supply chains causing farmers to throw produce away




					www-independent-co-uk.cdn.ampproject.org


----------



## TopCat (Sep 10, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Everyday Philosophy: The sense of nothingness surrounding Brexit
> 
> 
> How will shoppers adapt to empty shelves in supermarkets? NIGEL WARBURTON, one of the world’s most-read philosophers, offers his thoughts.
> ...


Who is is he again?


----------



## Badgers (Sep 10, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Who is is he again?


Nigel Warburton


----------



## TopCat (Sep 10, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Nigel Warburton


The baker?


----------



## gosub (Sep 10, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Who is is he again?


Must be one of Sam's lesser known cousins.  God JP Sarte could be an arse.


----------



## Raheem (Sep 10, 2021)

gosub said:


> Must be one of Sam's lesser known cousins.  God JP Sarte could be an arse.


Made an amazing boule de pain, though.


----------



## gosub (Sep 10, 2021)

Raheem said:


> Made an amazing boule de pain, though.


Thats as maybe, I still wouldnt  want want him in a rugby team


----------



## Badgers (Sep 10, 2021)

UK to lose spot in Germany's top trading partners - BBC News
					

Customs rules take their toll as German companies swap UK suppliers for alternatives in the EU.




					www-bbc-com.cdn.ampproject.org


----------



## Supine (Sep 10, 2021)

Global Britain being driven more and more into an inward looking isolationist country. Thanks brexiteers. 









						British Council to shut offices in Europe and beyond amid financial crisis
					

Cultural and diplomatic institution to close offices in 11 countries from Belgium to the United States.




					www.politico.eu


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 10, 2021)

Supine said:


> the tories don’t need to worry about the farmers because labour never try to represent them / win them over.


Labour and Trade Unions have been poor in recruiting agricultural workers generally. Not helped by  a labour market that is very often agency based


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 10, 2021)

But......


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 10, 2021)

Supine said:


> Global Britain being driven more and more into an inward looking isolationist country. Thanks brexiteers.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Aren't there enough rogue nations?


----------



## Badgers (Sep 10, 2021)

> The EU has pushed back sharply against demands the Northern Ireland Brexit protocol be scrapped, warning that a renegotiation would merely lead to more instability for traders and communities.
> 
> Just hours after the Democratic Unionist party threatened to collapse the Stormont assembly if the protocol was not substantially changed within weeks, the EU also urged politicians to “dial down the rhetoric” and give both sides calm space to work to ease tensions.







__





						EU rejects UK’s demand to scrap Northern Ireland protocol  | Brexit | The Guardian
					






					amp-theguardian-com.cdn.ampproject.org


----------



## Artaxerxes (Sep 11, 2021)

Goodbye privacy


----------



## Badgers (Sep 11, 2021)




----------



## MrSki (Sep 11, 2021)

Not good news for Cornwall. Who would have thought that Johnson would not lie over this one too?


----------



## Badgers (Sep 11, 2021)

No need to worry about Christmas  

Disgraced Prime Minister de Pfeffel Johnson (man of his word) said it will be okay 👍









						Supermarket food shortages will be over by Christmas, Downing Street says
					

Shoppers will enjoy a ‘normal Christmas’, Boris Johnson’s spokesman predicts – despite industry warning of ‘permanent’ gaps on shelves




					www.independent.co.uk


----------



## Badgers (Sep 11, 2021)

MrSki said:


> Not good news for Cornwall. Who would have thought that Johnson would not lie over this one too?



Didn't most the good folk of Cornwall vote leave? 

Ah well...


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 11, 2021)

Badgers said:


> No need to worry about Christmas
> 
> Disgraced Prime Minister de Pfeffel Johnson (man of his word) said it will be okay 👍
> 
> ...


A family of five could feast off Johnson's corpse for weeks as part of an unbalanced diet


----------



## Badgers (Sep 11, 2021)

Badgers said:


> No need to worry about Christmas
> 
> Disgraced Prime Minister de Pfeffel Johnson (man of his word) said it will be okay 👍
> 
> ...


Unless... 









						Food shortages ‘permanent’ and days of full choice of items over, Britons warned
					

Covid and Brexit have killed off ‘just-in-time’ deliveries, says industry boss – but No 10 insists Christmas will be ‘normal’




					www.independent.co.uk


----------



## Badgers (Sep 11, 2021)

> A British woman has told how she had to separate her six-year-old son from his French father because post-Brexit rules prohibited her spouse from returning with her to the UK for a new job without prior Home Office approval.







__





						‘My son misses his Papa’: Brexit rules force families to split  | Brexit | The Guardian
					






					amp-theguardian-com.cdn.ampproject.org


----------



## Artaxerxes (Sep 11, 2021)

Lidl apparently


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Sep 11, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Didn't most the good folk of Cornwall vote leave?
> 
> Ah well...



Looks superficially like a great story. Thicko bumpkins vote for leave and it’s totally self sabotaging.

But then you actually read the story and it’s a local news story generated by a group of independents on the council attacking the ruling Tory Council for not getting a bid in for the matched funding. Tories reply stating that they plan to bid for £700m over the next period….


----------



## andysays (Sep 11, 2021)

Badgers said:


> No need to worry about Christmas
> 
> Disgraced Prime Minister de Pfeffel Johnson (man of his word) said it will be okay 👍
> 
> ...


Does he specify *which* Christmas?


----------



## Raheem (Sep 11, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Looks superficially like a great story. Thicko bumpkins vote for leave and it’s totally self sabotaging.
> 
> But then you actually read the story and it’s a local news story generated by a group of independents on the council attacking the ruling Tory Council for not getting a bid in for the matched funding. Tories reply stating that they plan to bid for £700m over the next period….


It doesn't seem to be anything to do with match funding. The government has decided that the replacement finding programme should start as a pilot with only a token amount of funding available. So Cornwall is initially only able to get a tiny amount at present. They are hoping to get more starting in 2024, but still substantially less than they got from the EU.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Sep 11, 2021)

Raheem said:


> It doesn't seem to be anything to do with match funding. The government has decided that the replacement finding programme should start as a pilot with only a token amount of funding available. So Cornwall is initially only able to get a tiny amount at present. They are hoping to get more starting in 2024, but still substantially less than they got from the EU.



Thats not quite true either. Firstly the article states that Cornwall ‘could have got £100m’. We can only guess at how the independents arrived at the figure (by guessing I guess).

Secondly, the Shared Prosperity Fund was never designed to directly replace the EU scheme so like for like comparisons are going to require some detail and evidence.

Quoting directly from the HoC Research Paper  “The Fund will be in two main parts, largely covering the main areas of responsibility of the ERDF and ESF. The first part will cover investment in ‘people and skills’ (for example, work-based training), ‘communities and place’ (such as cultural and sporting facilities or town and neighbourhood infrastructure), and local businesses. The second part will be targeted at employment and skills programmes for those facing barriers to participation in the labour market.

• The first part of the Fund will be allocated based on achieving specific outcomes and agreeing investment proposals.
• Some of the Fund will be targeted at “places most in need across the UK”.
• The total amount of funding made available will “ramp up” until it at least matches “current EU receipts”.
• The investment framework governing the Fund will be announced in spring 2021, and funding for the portion of the Fund targeted at the places most in need will be allocated at the next Spending Review (presumably also in 2021)”


----------



## keybored (Sep 11, 2021)

Raheem said:


> I think it depends what you call roaming charges. EE still don't have roaming charges, but have introduced a cap on data usage abroad (which apparently would also be fine according to EU rules).


I think EE were the first mobile network to announce they will reintroduce roaming charges (£2 per day to use your UK allowance). They're just not implementing it till January 2022.


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 11, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Looks superficially like a great story. Thicko bumpkins vote for leave and it’s totally self sabotaging.



There's that T word, again. Why do some triumphant loyalists persist in using it?


----------



## TopCat (Sep 11, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Lidl apparently
> 
> View attachment 287878


Is this real?


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Sep 11, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> There's that T word, again. Why do some triumphant loyalists persist in using it?



merely musing on subtexts


----------



## andysays (Sep 11, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Is this real?


I certainly find it puzzling that although we're repeatedly told supermarkets aren't able to keep shelves stocked with essential goods, they seem to have no problem sourcing a variety of signs blaming the shortages on Brexit


----------



## Artaxerxes (Sep 11, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Is this real?



As real as you want it to be


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 11, 2021)

andysays said:


> I certainly find it puzzling that although we're repeatedly told supermarkets aren't able to keep shelves stocked with essential goods, they seem to have no problem sourcing a variety of signs blaming the shortages on Brexit



Sign makers have never had it so good


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Sep 11, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Is this real?





andysays said:


> I certainly find it puzzling that although we're repeatedly told supermarkets aren't able to keep shelves stocked with essential goods, they seem to have no problem sourcing a variety of signs blaming the shortages on Brexit





Artaxerxes said:


> As real as you want it to be



I'm not a Lidl regular (there isn't one near enough for me to have bothered trying) but the colours look more Tesco-ish, and the lower case i with the curl at the bottom doesn't match the typeface on the 'self raising flour' sign.

possibly a faked photo, possibly a sign that was genuinely seen in a Lidl but had not been placed there officially...


----------



## Badgers (Sep 12, 2021)




----------



## MrSki (Sep 12, 2021)




----------



## dessiato (Sep 12, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> This is excellent stuff, and the type of welcome reflection we need from Remainers. Bloodworth, who if I remember used to be in the Socialist Organiser before going on an identarian journey, voted Remain and, by any measure cannot be confused with a leave supporter:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Interesting article. Makes some good points.


----------



## Badgers (Sep 12, 2021)




----------



## Smokeandsteam (Sep 12, 2021)

The unbearable whiteness of the EU from, of all places, The Guardian:









						Europe’s reputation as a cosmopolitan haven has been exposed as a mirage | Hans Kundnani
					

The EU increasingly embraces the idea of a continental identity, one that’s white and Christian. Is it really the liberal body of remainer lore?




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Badgers (Sep 12, 2021)

The hard reality of Brexit is hitting Britain. It's costing everyone but Boris Johnson
					

From one end of the supply chain to the other, the UK's food producers have endured a summer of trouble.




					amp.cnn.com


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Sep 12, 2021)

bimble said:


> This is not news but i missed it at the time and think it's interesting:
> There's a man called Tim Leunig, eccentric academic economist & old friend of Cummings. He has a job in the government as 'Economic Adviser to the Chancellor'.
> In emails that got leaked early last year, he opined that it would be perfectly fine if the UK just stopped having an agriculture sector and instead imported all of its food, like Singapore, saying "the Food sector isn't critically important to the UK, and agriculture and fish production certainly isn't."    The leaks embarrassed the gov a bit but he's still there, advising the treasury.
> 
> ...


Maybe the angry farmers could drop a dead cow on to Tim Leinig from a great height or something like that.


----------



## Badgers (Sep 13, 2021)

Sunlit Uplands


----------



## bimble (Sep 13, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> The unbearable whiteness of the EU from, of all places, The Guardian:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



"while the EU was based on learning the lessons of centuries of conflict within Europe that culminated in the Second World War, and gradually also came to incorporate the collective memory of the Holocaust into its narrative, *“pro-Europeans” did not even attempt to learn the lessons of what Europeans had done to the rest of the world and never had anything to say about the history of colonialism.."*

The thing is though, as he himself says, the 'anti-european' forces that are setting the agenda now, as Europe becomes more "embattled" - they're coming from the right, from anti-globalisation nationalisms, anti-muslim, anti-immigrant etc, so instead of being more internationalist and less ethnocentric they're the exact opposite of that. I think he has a point, but it would be an absurd misreading to come away thinking, yeah, the European project is racist so anti-european forces are_ less _racist. Out of the the frying pan etc.


----------



## bimble (Sep 13, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Thats not quite true either. Firstly the article states that Cornwall ‘could have got £100m’. We can only guess at how the independents arrived at the figure (by guessing I guess).


or you could have a google and find that it's the average of what the Eu has sent to Cornwall over the past 15 years.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 13, 2021)

Count Cuckula said:


> Maybe the angry farmers could drop a dead cow on to Tim Leinig from a great height or something like that.


Or the other way round


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Sep 13, 2021)

bimble said:


> "while the EU was based on learning the lessons of centuries of conflict within Europe that culminated in the Second World War, and gradually also came to incorporate the collective memory of the Holocaust into its narrative, *“pro-Europeans” did not even attempt to learn the lessons of what Europeans had done to the rest of the world and never had anything to say about the history of colonialism.."*
> 
> The thing is though, as he himself says, the 'anti-european' forces that are setting the agenda now, as Europe becomes more "embattled" - they're coming from the right, from anti-globalisation nationalisms, anti-muslim, anti-immigrant etc, so instead of being more internationalist and less ethnocentric they're the exact opposite of that. I think he has a point, but it would be an absurd misreading to come away thinking, yeah, the European project is racist so anti-european forces are_ less _racist. Out of the the frying pan etc.



I think that misreading is unlikely bimble, as we’ve all had it drilled into us that opposition to the EU in the UK is purely the preserve of thicko gammon racists. As opposed to remainers who are all staunch internationalists and anti-racists. 

I thought that article was an interesting complication to that conversation, with some good insights into the trajectory of the EU now.


----------



## bimble (Sep 13, 2021)

Fozzie Bear said:


> I think that misreading is unlikely bimble, as we’ve all had it drilled into us that opposition to the EU in the UK is purely the preserve of thicko gammon racists. As opposed to remainers who are all staunch internationalists and anti-racists.
> 
> I thought that article was an interesting complication to that conversation, with some good insights into the trajectory of the EU now.


Yeah, but that quote, the idea that 'pro-europeans' are a bunch of people who have never thought about colonialism is just daft isn't it. And it's not like everyone who is 'pro European' can match the UK's record of having invaded most of the countries on the planet.


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 13, 2021)

Fozzie Bear said:


> I think that misreading is unlikely bimble, as we’ve all had it drilled into us that opposition to the EU in the UK is purely the preserve of thicko gammon racists. As opposed to remainers who are all staunch internationalists and anti-racists.
> 
> I thought that article was an interesting complication to that conversation, with some good insights into the trajectory of the EU now.



Tbf, only leavers are using the words "thick' and "thicko" at this stage. It's a bit odd, given that they won.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Sep 13, 2021)

bimble said:


> Yeah, but that quote, the idea that 'pro-europeans' are a bunch of people who have never thought about colonialism is just daft isnt it.



Well that they never had anything to say about it. I honestly don’t know. There is finally a bit of a reconsideration of colonialism here post-Colston. I’m not aware of similar stuff happening on mainland Europe amongst the pro-EU lot. 

Obviously it is prominent in Ireland.


----------



## bimble (Sep 13, 2021)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Well that they never had anything to say about it. I honestly don’t know. There is finally a bit of a reconsideration of colonialism here post-Colston. I’m not aware of similar stuff happening on mainland Europe amongst the pro-EU lot.
> 
> Obviously it is prominent in Ireland.


There's definitely a lot of interesting stuff where the reckoning with colonialism & empire meets brexit. I think Germany's centrality to & pushing of the EU agenda is tightly bound up with its decades of intense and self conscious thinking about its own history whilst we are just now having a sort of ugly internal fight about ours.


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 13, 2021)

bimble said:


> There's definitely a lot of interesting stuff where the reckoning with colonialism & empire meets brexit. I think Germany's centrality to & pushing of the EU agenda is tightly bound up with its decades of intense and self conscious thinking about its own history whilst we are just now having a sort of ugly internal fight about ours.



Often see comment from right wingers (not Brexit voters) who repeatedly claim that Europe has been "overrun" and lost its culture etc. Wonder how the article would sit with them, when it exposes the very white culture of the EU?


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Sep 13, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> Tbf, only leavers are using the words "thick' and "thicko" at this stage. It's a bit odd, given that they won.



Yeah, many Remain supporters do seem to have twigged just how ugly it was and now prefer to smugly hint at it instead. The quiet fury of the English middle classes etc


----------



## bimble (Sep 13, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> Often see comment from right wingers (not Brexit voters) who repeatedly claim that Europe has been "overrun" and lost its culture etc. Wonder how the article would sit with them, when it exposes the very white culture of the EU?


It's those voices who the article's about, its saying about how they are shaping things now.
5 years ago when Merkel said 'we can do this' about Germany taking in 1 million refugees, it rallied all the anti-immigration forces and i dont think she'd say that again now, climate's changed.








						How Angela Merkel’s great migrant gamble paid off
					

Five years ago, as more and more refugees crossed into Europe, Germany’s chancellor proclaimed, ‘We’ll manage this.’ Critics said it was her great mistake – but she has been proved right




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 13, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Yeah, many Remain supporters do seem to have twigged just how ugly it was and now prefer to smugly hint at it instead. The quiet fury of the English middle classes etc



Tbf, there's a fair old bit of hinting and smugness on both "sides".


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Sep 13, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> Tbf, there's a fair old bit of hinting and smugness on both "sides".


True


----------



## Supine (Sep 13, 2021)

Research finding indicates brexit has raised costs for a household by £870 per year.



			https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/iere.12541


----------



## Badgers (Sep 13, 2021)

Supine said:


> Research finding indicates brexit has raised costs for a household by £870 per year.
> 
> 
> 
> https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/iere.12541


Is that a Moonlit Upland?


----------



## bimble (Sep 13, 2021)

Other countries newspapers -  less polite about our predicament than our own. 








						The hard reality of Brexit is hitting Britain. It's costing everyone but Boris Johnson
					

From one end of the supply chain to the other, the UK's food producers have endured a summer of trouble.




					edition.cnn.com


----------



## bimble (Sep 13, 2021)

the times has a story today about how the bulgarian fruit pickers have been replaced this year by people from far further afield, whoever agrees to come here basically, with their flights paid for by the farm owners. This doesn't seem particularly better or more sustainable tbh.

 









						Hunt for fruit pickers extends 6,000 miles as shortage bites
					

Fruit pickers are being flown up to 6,000 miles to the UK from Barbados, Nepal, Tajikistan, Kenya, the Philippines and elsewhere because farms cannot find Brit




					www.thetimes.co.uk


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 13, 2021)

bimble said:


> the times has a story today about how the bulgarian fruit pickers have been replaced this year by people from far further afield, whoever agrees to come here basically, with their flights paid for by the farm owners. This doesn't seem particularly better or more sustainable tbh.
> 
> View attachment 288148 View attachment 288149
> 
> ...


It is of a piece with the trend of EU migration being replaced by non-eu migration


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 13, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> It is of a piece with the trend of EU migration being replaced by non-eu migration


Global Britain!


----------



## Sasaferrato (Sep 13, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Didn't most the good folk of Cornwall vote leave?
> 
> Ah well...


 Be careful what you wish for, you might get it.


----------



## Badgers (Sep 13, 2021)

__





						UK government threatens to suspend Northern Ireland protocol | Brexit | The Guardian
					

Brexit minister David Frost tells House of Lords that the European Commission must take renegotiation proposals seriously




					amp.theguardian.com


----------



## Artaxerxes (Sep 13, 2021)




----------



## Duncan2 (Sep 13, 2021)

If it is now uncontroversial that Brexit has had /is having the effect of giving low paid workers (home grown and otherwise) a voice at work which has been denied to them for a decade and more isn't it inevitable that the Tories will start to resile from strict controls upon immigration in the coming months or even weeks? How long can they remain at loggerheads with the CBI and Business more generally without risking some kind of revolt on their own back-benches?Genuine question.


----------



## Raheem (Sep 13, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> View attachment 288201


Not linking the Express shows good taste. But, if you read the article, it seems like the crown stamp isn't actually being reintroduced, although manufacturers will be allowed (ie no law says they can't) to put it on as bit of meaningless decoration.


----------



## two sheds (Sep 13, 2021)

Raheem said:


> if you read the article


----------



## Raheem (Sep 13, 2021)

two sheds said:


>


I offer no defence, but I did wash my eyes for two rounds of Happy Birthday afterwards.


----------



## ska invita (Sep 13, 2021)

Duncan2 said:


> If it is now uncontroversial that Brexit has had /is having the effect of giving low paid workers (home grown and otherwise) a voice at work which has been denied to them for a decade and more



its not uncontroversial, its inaccurate
which low paid workers are you thinking of?


----------



## two sheds (Sep 13, 2021)

I do feel this increase in wages is very narrow in scope and also very temporary. As soon as they've got enough drivers, wages and conditions will worsen. 

Can't see it working its way through to Cornwall, either. Ex neighbour used to work for Cornish transport company (I may have said) and he ended up with unpaid overtime often working at below minimum wage for driving a huge fuck-off truck through the night. 

Did have a carpenter do some work for me a few years ago and he hated Blair and therefore Labour with a passion because of the Eastern Europeans who came across and forced down wages those years ago. He'd also become (?) pretty racist and Sun reading I presume that was related.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Sep 13, 2021)

Duncan2 said:


> If it is now uncontroversial that Brexit has had /is having the effect of giving low paid workers (home grown and otherwise) a voice at work which has been denied to them for a decade and more isn't it inevitable that the Tories will start to resile from strict controls upon immigration in the coming months or even weeks? How long can they remain at loggerheads with the CBI and Business more generally without risking some kind of revolt on their own back-benches?Genuine question.



That’s a good question. On one hand Johnson and Co recognise that rising wages are very popular and speaks to their new voters in the ‘red wall’. They also think labour scarcity will absorb some of the fall out from the ending of the furlough (which everyone seems to have forgotten about) as higher pay rates in large parts of the economy will encourage the newly unemployed to work in new sectors. On the other, as you suggest, an alliance of capital, boss representatives, continuity remain and the right wing of the Tory Party are demanding sector by sector relaxation of visas.

I suspect the answer to your question is that they’ll continue to try to ride both horses until a) the fallout from the end of furlough is better known and b) until the ‘rising prices’ narrative more deeply resonates with its base proper. 

As an aside the silence of Labour on this stuff is pretty amazing. It was once a party interested in production, the economy and its potential in delivering economic justice.


----------



## two sheds (Sep 13, 2021)

I wouldn't be surprised if low-paid work picking veg etc weren't used against the unemployed: "well the jobs are out there, not our problem if you can't pay the rent"


----------



## bimble (Sep 13, 2021)

how the hell did i not know the word resile before? 
But there won’t be any big announcement or climbdown , just more fiddling with the ‘shortage occupations’ list & temp visas to try to plug the gaps.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Sep 13, 2021)

two sheds said:


> I wouldn't be surprised if low-paid work picking veg etc weren't used against the unemployed: "well the jobs are out there, not our problem if you can't pay the rent"



Yes, definitely. There will be a section of the Tory Party who will believe that there is a way to engineer a solution where wages can be kept low and migrant labour minimised by more punitive measures against the unemployed. The cuts to UC can be seen in that context too.


----------



## two sheds (Sep 13, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Yes, definitely. There will be a section of the Tory Party who will believe that there is a way to engineer a solution where wages can be kept low and migrant labour minimised by more punitive measures against the unemployed. The cuts to UC can be seen in that context too.


I did realize after posting it that "wouldn't be surprised" was a bit weak.


----------



## bimble (Sep 13, 2021)

It’s totally impossible for them to fill all the jobs with British unemployed people through threats & forced relocations but yeah that doesn’t mean they won’t try.


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 13, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> It is of a piece with the trend of EU migration being replaced by non-eu migration


Same as over here in Portugal , the fruit pickers, refuse collectors from last poor East European countries plus a new source of cheap unregulated labour from Nepal


----------



## Duncan2 (Sep 13, 2021)

ska invita said:


> its not uncontroversial, its inaccurate
> which low paid workers are you thinking of?


er myself for a start.


----------



## TopCat (Sep 14, 2021)

bimble said:


> the times has a story today about how the bulgarian fruit pickers have been replaced this year by people from far further afield, whoever agrees to come here basically, with their flights paid for by the farm owners. This doesn't seem particularly better or more sustainable tbh.
> 
> View attachment 288148 View attachment 288149
> 
> ...


Show me a recruitment advert, just one, in the UK for fruit pickers. I doubt they made any effort at all to recruit here.


----------



## bimble (Sep 14, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Show me a recruitment advert, just one, in the UK for fruit pickers. I doubt they made any effort at all to recruit here.





			https://uk.indeed.com/Fruit-Picking-jobs-in-England
		

?


----------



## TopCat (Sep 14, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Show me a recruitment advert, just one, in the UK for fruit pickers. I doubt they made any effort at all to recruit here.


I just checked..I’m wrong, there are loads of adverts.


----------



## bimble (Sep 14, 2021)

TopCat said:


> I just checked..I’m wrong, there are loads of adverts.


Nobody is ever actually wrong on this thread its just that facts are sometimes annoying.


----------



## Badgers (Sep 14, 2021)

__





						566 Agriculture, Fishing & Forestry Jobs and recruitment in UK
					






					pickforbritain.org.uk
				




The government set up this 'campaign' which was a farce. Hardly any adverts on it, unless you drove tractors or could spray crops from a plane. 

The website was down a lot and full of glitches plus dead links. 

Still, more money spaffed up the Brexit wall.


----------



## Supine (Sep 14, 2021)

I guess people living in Brixton aren’t the target audience for farming jobs


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 14, 2021)

Supine said:


> I guess people living in Brixton aren’t the target audience for farming jobs


Back in the day lots of people from London went hop picking in Kent and Sussex for several weeks in the summer. Don't suppose there's a tradition of hipsters or gentrifiers doing that tho


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 14, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Back in the day lots of people from London went hop picking in Kent and Sussex for several weeks in the summer. Don't suppose there's a tradition of hipsters or gentrifiers doing that tho


All into crypto currency mining


----------



## mojo pixy (Sep 14, 2021)

And care work. Lots of that still available locally (I guarantee there's an understaffed care home within 10 mins' travel of almost every poster on the boards' current location)

The government could mandate a minimum wage of £12/hr for care staff, which would pretty much solve the sector's understaffing problem by the end of the year. But they won't because despite 'pRoTeCt TeH VuLnErAbLe' by making care staff have covid jabs, it's just fine to leave their homes understaffed (which is way more risky for residents). 'Well that's the market, folks!!11!"


----------



## ska invita (Sep 14, 2021)

Duncan2 said:


> er myself for a start.


Well that's a start. Im down the last three years. You might be right, maybe this is more widespread. FT report a general fall in average wages this year... Matches my experience, but experience is just anecdote


----------



## ska invita (Sep 14, 2021)

two sheds said:


> I do feel this increase in wages is very narrow in scope and also very temporary. As soon as they've got enough drivers, wages and conditions will worsen.
> 
> Can't see it working its way through to Cornwall, either. Ex neighbour used to work for Cornish transport company (I may have said) and he ended up with unpaid overtime often working at below minimum wage for driving a huge fuck-off truck through the night.
> 
> Did have a carpenter do some work for me a few years ago and he hated Blair and therefore Labour with a passion because of the Eastern Europeans who came across and forced down wages those years ago. He'd also become (?) pretty racist and Sun reading I presume that was related.


Lots of people on pay freezes or out right cuts since Covid.... Depends on the industry. 

 Inflation will be going up so even small wage increases should follow. But lots of parts of the economy have shrunk a lot the last two years.

I started at my job on 6.25 some years ago. Thought my 11.25 now was an improvement but putting it in the inflation calculator it's a modest increase. 

Sir Starmer supposedly going to commit to a £10 minimum wage. By the time of the next election it's not going to be much of an increase tbh. And still below the London Living Wage


----------



## Badgers (Sep 14, 2021)

Post-Brexit checks on EU imports delayed again - BBC News
					

The government blames Covid and supply chain difficulties as it puts back changes.




					www-bbc-com.cdn.ampproject.org


----------



## ruffneck23 (Sep 14, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Back in the day lots of people from London went hop picking in Kent and Sussex for several weeks in the summer. Don't suppose there's a tradition of hipsters or gentrifiers doing that tho


Yeah I also remember when I was signing on in Tottenham back around 93-94 they tried shipping us off to Butlins to work for the summer so they do have form. Cant remember how I got out of it...


----------



## Mezzer (Sep 14, 2021)

"Brexit: Checks on goods imported from the EU delayed again."​When the PM allegedly said "Fuck Business" in reference to UK companies, no one expected him to do so quite so comprehensively.  Not exactly a level playing field, is it?


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 14, 2021)

Mezzer said:


> "Brexit: Checks on goods imported from the EU delayed again."​When the PM allegedly said "Fuck Business" in reference to UK companies, no one expected him to do so quite so comprehensively.  Not exactly a level playing field, is it?


Allegedly?


----------



## Badgers (Sep 14, 2021)




----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Sep 14, 2021)

Still, it’s not all bad, things like this surely make it all worthwhile


----------



## Badgers (Sep 14, 2021)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> Still, it’s not all bad, things like this surely make it all worthwhile
> 
> View attachment 288366


Been posted a few times now but these are the Sunlit Uplands we lost billions of pounds for, not to mention the global embarrassment.


----------



## Yossarian (Sep 14, 2021)

Meanwhile, in the US, the driver shortage is so acute that the National Guard is being called in to drive school buses in Massachusetts - if Donald Trump was still in power, he'd probably be saying that it shows the border wall is working.









						Massachusetts deploys National Guard to help with bus driver shortage
					

90 Massachusetts National Guard members begin training Tuesday in four cities, Gov. Charlie Baker announced.




					www.nbcnews.com


----------



## Badgers (Sep 15, 2021)

HGV driving test changes 'risk to road safety' - BBC News
					

The Road Haulage Association warns planned changes present a step backwards when it comes to safety.




					www-bbc-co-uk.cdn.ampproject.org


----------



## Badgers (Sep 15, 2021)

Brexit and Covid take Liverpool pub's giant pork pies off menu
					

A pub could be without its giant pork pies for the first time in years due to delivery issues.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## Yossarian (Sep 15, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Brexit and Covid take Liverpool pub's giant pork pies off menu
> 
> 
> A pub could be without its giant pork pies for the first time in years due to delivery issues.
> ...



Seems like the headline could also be "Supplier's Refusal to Pay Competitive Wages Delays Pork Deliveries."

Or, "No Pies for Anybody Because Capitalist Pigs Won't Take a Smaller Slice."


----------



## Badgers (Sep 15, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> Seems like the headline could also be "Supplier's Refusal to Pay Competitive Wages Delays Pork Deliveries."
> 
> Or, "No Pies for Anybody Because Capitalist Pigs Won't Take a Smaller Slice."


That is it 100%


----------



## Badgers (Sep 15, 2021)




----------



## extra dry (Sep 15, 2021)

environmental cut backs


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 15, 2021)

extra dry said:


> environmental cut backs



Soz who made that video and why should I trust it?


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 15, 2021)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> Still, it’s not all bad, things like this surely make it all worthwhile
> 
> View attachment 288366


Every time I go into a pub I see pretty much every glass is branded and a different shape. I suspect breweries supply pubs with glasses advertising their beers. So if as I imagine pubs are getting many glasses free why would they buy these crown ones?


----------



## Yossarian (Sep 15, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Soz who made that video and why should I trust it?



It appears to be a dispatch from Zombie News.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Sep 15, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Every time I go into a pub I see pretty much every glass is branded and a different shape. I suspect breweries supply pubs with glasses advertising their beers. So if as I imagine pubs are getting many glasses free why would they buy these crown ones?


Don’t all pub glasses have to be CE marked though? So I’d guess new ones will just get the crown, no matter what their shape.


----------



## Supine (Sep 15, 2021)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> Don’t all pub glasses have to be CE marked though? So I’d guess new ones will just get the crown, no matter what their shape.



CE being replaced with UKCA at some point in the next year or two. Which is really going to duck up the medical device industry!


----------



## Badgers (Sep 15, 2021)

Supine said:


> CE being replaced with UKCA at some point in the next year or two. Which is really going to duck up the medical device industry!


Plus all exporters


----------



## Raheem (Sep 15, 2021)

Supine said:


> CE being replaced with UKCA at some point in the next year or two. Which is really going to duck up the medical device industry!


Capillary tubes with little crowns on.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Sep 15, 2021)

Badgers said:


>







> 400% inflation on fish



OK...


----------



## TopCat (Sep 15, 2021)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> Don’t all pub glasses have to be CE marked though? So I’d guess new ones will just get the crown, no matter what their shape.


This plus the old CE ones will be accepted for ever. Dunno why this even gets raised.


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 15, 2021)

TopCat said:


> This plus the old CE ones will be accepted for ever. Dunno why this even gets raised.



Raise a glass to the frothy future!


----------



## Supine (Sep 15, 2021)

Raheem said:


> Capillary tubes with little crowns on.



If European suppliers bother to make special versions just for the U.K.  if not then problems


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Sep 15, 2021)

Supine said:


> If European suppliers bother to make special versions just for the U.K.  if not then problems


Who wants those fancy _foreign_ shaped glasses anyway? British shaped pint glasses for British people, IT’S WHAT WE VOTED FOR


----------



## brogdale (Sep 15, 2021)

See, here again I can back neither dog in this fight; I'm happy to drink from either the Euro-fancy glass, or monarchically embossed pint pot of old England...as long as the age old tradition of a working man's half is recognised by the host.


----------



## extra dry (Sep 15, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Soz who made that video and why should I trust it?


Philmorehouse76 that his twitter. He does a lot of brexit videos, looking at food supply, gov rules, and stuff.


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 15, 2021)

Great pity the schooner never took off in the UK imo


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 15, 2021)

extra dry said:


> Philmorehouse76 that his twitter. He does a lot of brexit videos, looking at food supply, gov rules, and stuff.


Yeh but why should I trust it? Tommy Robinson does loads of stuff about Muslims but surely no one would say the volume of videos he issues makes him trustworthy


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 15, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Great pity the schooner never took off in the UK imo


Except among sherry drinkers. Very different in Australia


----------



## gosub (Sep 15, 2021)

Badgers said:


>




What planet are these people on. Much as Remain didn't have a winning strategy for the referendum, its plan for overturning it, was as I perceive it, change your mind or you a massive racist gullible enough to believe anything written on the side of a bus, failed.

Now, rather than elucidate on which technicalities were causing this 400% inflation that thy might be addressed, just sarcasm.


----------



## bimble (Sep 15, 2021)

the massively increased cost of shipping containers isnt brexit its covid.


----------



## gosub (Sep 15, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Except among sherry drinkers. Very different in Australia


 who drinks sherry by the 1/3rd pint?
Understand their popularity in OZ is temperature related....beer at the bottom of a pint pot not as chilled by the time you reach it


----------



## JimW (Sep 15, 2021)

gosub said:


> beer at the bottom of a pint pot not as chilled by the time you reach it


Lightweights. Plus as well know, warm beer is best.


----------



## gosub (Sep 15, 2021)

bimble said:


> the massively increased cost of shipping containers isnt brexit its covid.


Shipping containers HAVE gone up coz of covid , a lot of them not where they need to be to be of use. But 400% , Nah, other overheads, that you could bundle together and call "Brexit" or detail in a way that allows for them to be addressed


----------



## Flavour (Sep 15, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Great pity the schooner never took off in the UK imo


Getting to say "schoonies" and not feel like an idiot was one of the best things about my time in Australia


----------



## gosub (Sep 15, 2021)

Supine said:


> If European suppliers bother to make special versions just for the U.K.  if not then problems


 who else in Europe uses 571ml glasses?


----------



## bimble (Sep 15, 2021)

gosub said:


> Shipping containers HAVE gone up coz of covid , a lot of them not where they need to be to be of use. But 400% , Nah, other overheads, that you could bundle together and call "Brexit" or detail in a way that allows for them to be addressed


apparently 400% is about right but yeah its not brexit. import duties are a separate thing obvs. 








						Shipping costs quadruple to record highs on China-Europe ‘bottleneck’
					

Soaring prices fuelled by shortage of containers and recovery in consumer demand




					www.ft.com


----------



## gosub (Sep 15, 2021)

bimble said:


> apparently 400% is about right but yeah its not  ALL brexit. import duties are a separate thing obvs.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Containers - even higher now than it was when that was written Why even giant ships can't solve the shipping crisis
Not htinking about import tax more the other overheads like these vet testing things


----------



## Badgers (Sep 15, 2021)

gosub said:


> What planet are these people on. Much as Remain didn't have a winning strategy for the referendum, its plan for overturning it, was as I perceive it, change your mind or you a massive racist gullible enough to believe anything written on the side of a bus, failed.
> 
> Now, rather than elucidate on which technicalities were causing this 400% inflation that thy might be addressed, just sarcasm.


Why ask remain to solve the issues?


----------



## gosub (Sep 15, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Why ask remain to solve the issues?


Free free to spend the rest of eternity moaning and not engaging constructively coz of losing a referendum if you want to. Certainly not asking remain to solve anything....Their solution was rejected in 2016


----------



## extra dry (Sep 15, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Yeh but why should I trust it? Tommy Robinson does loads of stuff about Muslims but surely no one would say the volume of videos he issues makes him trustworthy


You could check and look up articles in the publications he uses, like The Grocer Retail news | FMCG news | Grocery news

and Frozen foods list

Industry magazines & Websites – UK Frozen Food , food trade/industry publications.

All the articles he sites are in these.
Food and drink manufacturing news: Food Manufacture 









						Broccoli and cauliflower wasted in droves in labour crisis
					

Reports are surfacing of substantial amounts of vegetables going to waste that would otherwise be destined for fresh produce or frozen food processors because of the lack of labour required to harvest them.




					www.foodmanufacture.co.uk


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 15, 2021)

extra dry said:


> You could check and look up articles in the publications he uses, like The Grocer Retail news | FMCG news | Grocery news
> 
> and Frozen foods list
> 
> ...


Not so hard when you try is it


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 15, 2021)

gosub said:


> who else in Europe uses 571ml glasses?


Strange. There's only 568 ml in a pint


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 15, 2021)

gosub said:


> who drinks sherry by the 1/3rd pint?
> Understand their popularity in OZ is temperature related....beer at the bottom of a pint pot not as chilled by the time you reach it











						Schooner (glass) - Wikipedia
					






					en.m.wikipedia.org


----------



## andysays (Sep 15, 2021)

extra dry said:


> You could check and look up articles in the publications he uses, like The Grocer Retail news | FMCG news | Grocery news
> 
> and Frozen foods list
> 
> ...


We've been down this road before, haven't we?

I'll probably get accused of being a conspiraloon again for pointing it out, but articles in industry magazines like that can't really be relied on for providing a genuine assessment of the reason why things are happening, given that they are essentially propaganda for bosses.


----------



## extra dry (Sep 15, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Not so hard when you try is it


Gosh, thank you, what do you think will happen? I need references as well.


----------



## extra dry (Sep 15, 2021)

andysays said:


> We've been down this road before, haven't we?
> 
> I'll probably get accused of being a conspiraloon again for pointing it out, but articles in industry magazines like that can't really be relied on for providing a genuine assessment of the reason why things are happening, given that they are essentially propaganda for bosses.


Were do you get your information from?


----------



## gosub (Sep 15, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Schooner (glass) - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Ah, memory from times drinking in schooners is for some reason a little fuzzy. 2/3 pint of sheery even wors, must of been back in the day when they sold gin by the pint


----------



## andysays (Sep 15, 2021)

extra dry said:


> Were do you get your information from?


I try to get it from a variety of sources,  and I recognise that all those sources are likely to be partial to some extent, but some blatantly more so than others.


----------



## extra dry (Sep 15, 2021)

r/ukpolitics  another source @anyone who is interested


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 15, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Except among sherry drinkers. Very different in Australia


That's what I meant , the Australian version. 
You can get a caneca here 50cl. There is supposed to be a girafa of I litre but never seen it  and a lambreta which is  15cl.


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 15, 2021)

andysays said:


> We've been down this road before, haven't we?
> 
> I'll probably get accused of being a conspiraloon again for pointing it out, but articles in industry magazines like that can't really be relied on for providing a genuine assessment of the reason why things are happening, given that they are essentially propaganda for bosses.


He's an ex science teacher who is now trying to forge out an income writing about politics .Warmly liked by Labour for EU .


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 15, 2021)

extra dry said:


> Gosh, thank you, what do you think will happen? I need references as well.


Let me know when you need one and I'll be happy to supply. Best of luck with your job search


----------



## TopCat (Sep 15, 2021)

RE: Extra Dry reference
Would you re employ? 
Sadly not.


----------



## two sheds (Sep 15, 2021)

extra dry said:


> r/ukpolitics  another source @anyone who is interested


Headline there to strike fear into us all: 

Michael Gove put in charge of ‘fixing’ Britain’s food supply chains


----------



## Badgers (Sep 15, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Headline there to strike fear into us all:
> 
> Michael Gove put in charge of ‘fixing’ Britain’s food supply chains


He has set up good connections for some 'supplies' from South America, so should be great at this if he is sober.


----------



## Badgers (Sep 15, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Headline there to strike fear into us all:
> 
> Michael Gove put in charge of ‘fixing’ Britain’s food supply chains


*The prime minister has put Michael Gove in charge of “fixing” Britain’s food supply chains, quipping that he “doesn’t want to have to cancel Christmas again”.*

So the rising deaths and Brexit misery are not a worry. Just an outdated (non-existent) religious waste of time and money.


----------



## bimble (Sep 15, 2021)

Supine said:


> If European suppliers bother to make special versions just for the U.K.  if not then problems


The governments absolute refusal to just go with alignment with Eu on standards (safety standards manufacturing animal welfare & food standards etc etc) is really quite striking.
Doing so would make a load of the problems just disappear but they wont do it.

It's the only bit that i think shows they (some of them) are genuinely invested in brexit as an idea & I think its unequivocally bad news for us who live here, they're not doing it cos they want this country to have _higher _standards than the EU.


----------



## Elpenor (Sep 15, 2021)

Badgers said:


> *The prime minister has put Michael Gove in charge of “fixing” Britain’s food supply chains, quipping that he “doesn’t want to have to cancel Christmas again”.*
> 
> So the rising deaths and Brexit misery are not a worry. Just an outdated (non-existent) religious waste of time and money.


I suspect this means Christmas will be cancelled at the last minute again and Gove will be pantomime villain. This is Boris’s slow burning  revenge for Gove’s backstabbing.


----------



## bimble (Sep 15, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> But food prices might go up................











						UK inflation in record August jump as food and drink prices rise
					

Leap to 3.2% from July’s 2% is largest increase in annual rate from one month to next since records began




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Badgers (Sep 15, 2021)

Elpenor said:


> I suspect this means Christmas will be cancelled at the last minute again and Gove will be pantomime villain. This is Boris’s slow burning  revenge for Gove’s backstabbing.


#ToryScum looking after themselves (hardly even their own) at the expense of the lives and funds of the taxpayer.


----------



## Badgers (Sep 15, 2021)

bimble said:


> UK inflation in record August jump as food and drink prices rise
> 
> 
> Leap to 3.2% from July’s 2% is largest increase in annual rate from one month to next since records began
> ...


That is probably just Covid


----------



## TopCat (Sep 15, 2021)

bimble said:


> UK inflation in record August jump as food and drink prices rise
> 
> 
> Leap to 3.2% from July’s 2% is largest increase in annual rate from one month to next since records began
> ...


Do you think wages should be kept low to keep prices down?


----------



## bimble (Sep 15, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Do you think wages should be kept low to keep prices down?


I think everyone should be able to afford food, and thats not the case at the moment. So if food gets more expensive everyone should have more money, not just lorry drivers & whichever other particular jobs are seeing some improvement in wages.


----------



## TopCat (Sep 15, 2021)

bimble said:


> I think everyone should be able to afford food, and thats not the case at the moment. So if food gets more expensive everyone should have more money, not just lorry drivers & whichever other particular jobs are seeing some improvement in wages.


How?


----------



## bimble (Sep 15, 2021)

TopCat said:


> How?


you're asking me how should everyone have more money? 100% inheritance tax, would be a better way than brexit imo. brexits not going to help.


----------



## Saul Goodman (Sep 15, 2021)

TopCat said:


> How?


Tax the super rich at 90%. If they refuse to pay or try to leave or move their money out of the country, hang them from lamp posts. Start with Bezos and Bono because their names begin with B... and they're cunts.


----------



## extra dry (Sep 15, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Let me know when you need one and I'll be happy to supply. Best of luck with your job search


If I need any help Pickman you will be, check notes, on the list.


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 15, 2021)

Saul Goodman said:


> Tax the super rich at 90%. If they refuse to pay or try to leave or move their money out of the country, hang them from lamp posts. Start with Bezos and Bono because their names begin with B... and they're cunts.



No Irish person should ever be executed in the UK. Even Bono.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Sep 15, 2021)

bimble said:


> UK inflation in record August jump as food and drink prices rise
> 
> 
> Leap to 3.2% from July’s 2% is largest increase in annual rate from one month to next since records began
> ...



Would you support new anti union laws and the use of the police/army to smash strikes if those strikes were likely to further push prices up? Other remainers should feel free to answer too..


----------



## bimble (Sep 15, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Would you support new anti union laws and the use of the police/army to smash strikes if those strikes were likely to further push prices up? Other remainers should feel free to answer too..


eh? don't be daft. Do you seriously think that how people voted in that referendum enables you to categorise them as either pro or anti workers rights ? you cant really think that shirley.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Sep 15, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> No Irish person should ever be executed in the UK. *Even Bono*.


Well, hang on a minute. Think of the greater good.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Sep 15, 2021)

bimble said:


> eh? don't be daft. Do you seriously think that how people voted in that referendum enables you to categorise them as either pro or anti workers rights ? you cant really think that shirley.



No, I don’t think that. But at some stage the battle lines will be drawn: workers demanding more pay v those resisting - bosses, ministers, concerned citizens etc - on the basis that ‘prices must be kept down’. Just wondering which side you’ll be on especially as it’s Brexit driving these wage increases which hard pressed bosses will need to pass on at some point….


----------



## Badgers (Sep 15, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Do you think wages should be kept low to keep prices down?


No. 

I think shareholders wages and bonuses should be reduced. 

Hardly an issue?


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Sep 15, 2021)

Badgers said:


> No.
> 
> I think shareholders wages and bonuses should be reduced.
> 
> Hardly an issue?



We all think that. But let’s assume food, haulier, service sector etc bosses decide not to do that (hard to imagine I know) and instead a sustained campaign is launched against workers demanding more pay: holding the country to ransom, pushing prices up, spoiling Christmas for the poor: which side should we take?


----------



## bimble (Sep 15, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> No, I don’t think that. But at some stage the battle lines will be drawn: workers demanding more pay v those resisting - bosses, ministers, concerned citizens etc - on the basis that ‘prices must be kept down’. Just wondering which side you’ll be on especially as it’s Brexit driving these wage increases which hard pressed bosses will need to pass on at some point….


But there's no new battle, it's the same thing as ever. Brexit hasnt changed the battle lines but brexit does mean (imo) that food will cost more for everyone. If we are about to see more widespread action to increase wages (not just lorry drivers food processors etc) then great. Making out that more expensive food & high inflation is something that's good news for workers in general just strikes me as nonsense though tbh.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Sep 15, 2021)

bimble said:


> But there's no new battle, it's the same thing as ever. Brexit hasnt changed the battle lines but brexit does mean (imo) that food will cost more for everyone. If we are about to see more widespread action to increase wages (not just lorry drivers food processors etc) then great. Making out that more expensive food & high inflation is something that's good news for workers in general just strikes me as nonsense though tbh.



How would you resolve the seemingly intractable  conundrum?


----------



## Saul Goodman (Sep 15, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> How would you resolve the seemingly intractable  conundrum?


Paying everybody a living wage would be a start, but then prices go up and the living wage would have to increase. Rinse and repeat until it's sustainable.


----------



## bimble (Sep 15, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> How would you resolve the seemingly intractable  conundrum?


i haven't got an answer really, and i do see that you're asking a real question there. Me personally I'm someone who could pay more for my food without it hurting so its easy for me to sit here and say 'i would be on the side of the striking workers' but not sure that's a very meaningful to say.

Apart from a big raising of minimum wage - not going to happen - an idea that i like is 'maximum retail price', stamped on products, as imposed by the government for decades in india (in danger of being dumped there now) which fixes an upper legal limit on the price shops can charge for essential items. Which is also not going to happen obvs.


----------



## Badgers (Sep 15, 2021)

Saul Goodman said:


> Paying everybody a living wage would be a start, but then prices go up and the living wage would have to increase. Rinse and repeat until it's sustainable.


With a #ToryScum government


----------



## Saul Goodman (Sep 15, 2021)

Badgers said:


> With a #ToryScum government


I didn't say it would ever happen.


----------



## extra dry (Sep 15, 2021)

Britain delays Brexit border checks as food industry warns of permanent shortages 

news report on Scottish fish industry


----------



## brogdale (Sep 15, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Do you think wages should be kept low to keep prices down?


Wages are kept low to maintain un-earned returns to capital.


----------



## TopCat (Sep 15, 2021)

Badgers said:


> No.
> 
> I think shareholders wages and bonuses should be reduced.
> 
> Hardly an issue?


I think you are a rare prince amongst remainers.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 15, 2021)

bimble said:


> I think everyone should be able to afford food, and thats not the case at the moment. So if food gets more expensive everyone should have more money, not just lorry drivers & whichever other particular jobs are seeing some improvement in wages.


You'll not believe what's about to happen to the price of pasta


----------



## Saul Goodman (Sep 15, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> You'll not believe what's about to happen to the price of pasta


It's going to end up costing a pretty penne.


----------



## Badgers (Sep 15, 2021)

TopCat said:


> I think you are a rare prince amongst remainers.


 

Most Remoaners (I know at least) are pro... 

Rent control 
Increasing minimum wage 
Corporation taxes 
Tax on second homes and landlords 
Reform of benefits / basic income
Focus on social care, not nuclear missiles


----------



## Yossarian (Sep 15, 2021)

Other countries: Food prices are rising because of numerous factors including the effect of climate change on agriculture. 









						Rising food prices deepen the woes of world's poorest - France 24
					

Rising food prices deepen the woes of world's poorest




					www.france24.com
				




UK: Brexit brexit brexit brexit? Brexit brexit!


----------



## Badgers (Sep 15, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> Other countries: Food prices are rising because of numerous factors including the effect of climate change on agriculture.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yup. 

However...

If there was ever a time for global solidarity this is it. 

Under this Disgraced government and a brexit based on lies nobody in their right mind can justify this mess.


----------



## extra dry (Sep 16, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> You'll not believe what's about to happen to the price of pasta


Were are your sources, not sauces, see what I managed to shoe horn in there as a pun, I am on fire this afternoon.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 16, 2021)

extra dry said:


> Were are your sources, not sauces, see what I managed to shoe horn in there as a pun, I am on fire this afternoon.


In that case I will piss on you - see post 6656


----------



## extra dry (Sep 16, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> In that case I will piss on you - see post 6656


Sorry, I am not into that thank you very much.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Sep 16, 2021)

extra dry said:


> Were are your sources, not sauces, see what I managed to shoe horn in there as a pun, I am on fire this afternoon.


you've lit the fusilli now...


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 16, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> You'll not believe what's about to happen to the price of pasta



Cues durum roll... the anticipation builds... wheat for it...


----------



## Supine (Sep 16, 2021)

Someone is busy penne-ing a pasta pun


----------



## Raheem (Sep 16, 2021)

Orzo it would seem.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 16, 2021)

Raheem said:


> Orzo it would seem.


----------



## Serene (Sep 16, 2021)

Marks & Spencer blames Brexit as it closes 11 French stores​
*Marks & Spencer has said it is closing 11 of its French stores because of problems supplying them with fresh and chilled foods since Brexit.*
The UK retail giant said all 11 franchise stores it operated with partner SFH in France would shut "over the coming months".
M&S said supply chain problems since Brexit had made it "near impossible" to maintain standards of food supply.

Marks & Spencer blames Brexit as it closes 11 French stores


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 16, 2021)

Serene said:


> Marks & Spencer blames Brexit as it closes 11 French stores​
> *Marks & Spencer has said it is closing 11 of its French stores because of problems supplying them with fresh and chilled foods since Brexit.*
> The UK retail giant said all 11 franchise stores it operated with partner SFH in France would shut "over the coming months".
> M&S said supply chain problems since Brexit had made it "near impossible" to maintain standards of food supply.
> ...


But what do you think?


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 16, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> But what do you think?



Their clothing line seems a bit pasta it


----------



## extra dry (Sep 16, 2021)

Co-op warns of price rises as staff and stock shortages dent profits  prices headed up.


----------



## Supine (Sep 16, 2021)

Here we go. None of this gives me a warm and fuzzy feeling.









						Government launches plans to capitalise on new Brexit freedoms
					

New plans to capitalise on the freedoms from Brexit have been announced.




					www.gov.uk


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 16, 2021)

bimble said:


> But there's no new battle, it's the same thing as ever. Brexit hasnt changed the battle lines but brexit does mean (imo) that food will cost more for everyone. If we are about to see more widespread action to increase wages (not just lorry drivers food processors etc) then great. Making out that more expensive food & high inflation is something that's good news for workers in general just strikes me as nonsense though tbh.


Yeah. We totally need people on barely minimum wage to pick the potatoes else Sky TV might slip out of reach. Lol


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 16, 2021)

Supine said:


> Here we go. None of this gives me a warm and fuzzy feeling.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Neither does,, it seems,  answering Pickman's model  question


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 16, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Neither does,, it seems,  answering Pickman's model  question


Haven’t read the thread but the whole point of Brexit for the ruling class was less about flag waving and more about going full Hayek. But that also opens up opportunities for the left hence Lexit views. If we had an actual left but it works in theory lol.


----------



## Saul Goodman (Sep 16, 2021)

Supine said:


> Here we go. None of this gives me a warm and fuzzy feeling.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Rules on data storage and genetically modified foods to be changed. I guess that means scrapping GDPR and GM food regulations.


----------



## bimble (Sep 16, 2021)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Yeah. We totally need people on barely minimum wage to pick the potatoes else Sky TV might slip out of reach. Lol


i don't know what this means, it sounds a bit like flat screen tellies. But whatever your point is i'm sure you're totally right about it.


----------



## Poot (Sep 16, 2021)

Permitting the voluntary printing of the Crown Stamp on pint glasses and reviewing the EU ban on markings and sales in imperial units and legislating in due course, none of which were possible within the EU.

Is this some sort of joke?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 16, 2021)

bimble said:


> i don't know what this means, it sounds a bit like flat screen tellies. But whatever your point is i'm sure you're totally right about it.


I can’t quite decipher your reply either but I bet it was popular in the 80s.


----------



## bimble (Sep 16, 2021)

Poot said:


> Permitting the voluntary printing of the Crown Stamp on pint glasses and reviewing the EU ban on markings and sales in imperial units and legislating in due course, none of which were possible within the EU.
> 
> Is this some sort of joke?


fucking hell no its not. here's their full list of glorious Brexit Opportunities (regulatory reforms plans).

The stupid crown stamp on pint glasses is the very first thing on the list. Madness.

It also has pounds & ounces.


			https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1018386/Brexit_opportunities-_regulatory_reforms.pdf
		


this bit is exciting.
"General Aviation Reform - Having already made some changes to EU rules, the government will remove further unnecessary and burdensome EU requirements on the General Aviation sector (non-scheduled aircraft) - including on crew licencing, airworthiness maintenance, and medical requirements.'

plus we might be able to spray pesticides with drones !


----------



## Poot (Sep 16, 2021)

bimble said:


> fucking hell no its not. here's their full list of glorious Brexit Opportunities regulatory Reforms plans.
> 
> The stupid crown stamp on pint glasses is the very first thing on the list. Madness.
> 
> ...


Yeah, I couldn't give a shiny shit about the crown, but I already have to deal with a load of dinosaurs in my job who talk in inches and acres. I can't tell you how regressive this feels.


----------



## bimble (Sep 16, 2021)

Their whole list of brexit opportunities is a mix of the absurd and the depressing imo. Their refusal to align with EU on standards is just going to make more money for a few people and make the rest of us less safe .


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 16, 2021)

bimble said:


> Their whole list of brexit opportunities is a mix of the absurd and the depressing imo. Their refusal to align with EU on standards is just going to make more money for a few people and make the rest of us less safe .


We should have stuck with that neo-liberal old boys ties club. That would’ve saved us.


----------



## bimble (Sep 16, 2021)

Magnus McGinty said:


> We should have stuck with that neo-liberal old boys ties club. That would’ve saved us.


This is definitely a new era yeah. Totally not the same thing.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 16, 2021)

bimble said:


> This is definitely a new era yeah. Totally not the same thing.


Well at least the Tories can be taken to task now and dispensed with. The only way to vote out the EU was Brexit.


----------



## stethoscope (Sep 16, 2021)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Well at least the Tories can be taken to task now and dispensed with. The only way to vote out the EU was Brexit.



Hello mate, indeed, but as we found out, one part of 'the left' turned out to have some misplaced belief in a neoliberal superstate to 'save us from the Tories', whilst another part were moderates prepared to fuck the one opportunity 'the left' had to lay down a convincing left-leave argument to the country, which allowed the Tories in anyway.

Fuck it. I fear the anti-trans sentiment (and the exploiting of it as a wedge issue to other regressive shit) being whisked up in this country more than brexit tbh.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 16, 2021)

stethoscope said:


> Hello mate, indeed, but as we found out, one part of 'the left' turned out to have some misplaced belief in a neoliberal superstate to 'save us from the Tories', whilst another part were moderates prepared to fuck the one opportunity 'the left' had to lay down a convincing left-leave argument to the country, which allowed the Tories in anyway.
> 
> Fuck it. I fear the anti-trans sentiment being whisked up in this country more than brexit tbh.


Hiya Steth great to see you posting. I actually abstained on the vote which I’ve done on every single election since I stupidly voted Green when I was 18 and full of hope, and LSD.
I never understood how a lot of the left were simultaneously pro EU and pro Corbyn. Surely they ought to have been pro Brexit and pro Corbyn else he’d get to the levers of power with his hands tied behind his back? The mind boggles. Would the EU allow for any kind of mildly redistributive system? Seems unlikely.
Sorry to hear that you’re fearful for the future of trans people in the current climate, all people who identify as whatever they wish should be free to live a comfortable life without fear of harm or persecution.


----------



## Badgers (Sep 16, 2021)

As mentioned I worked on the Brexit project (NI Protocol) for as long as I could stand. 

One of the senior HMRC Customs people told me in no uncertain terms... 



> There are no benefits to the UK from Brexit. It is a massive blag funded and promoted by tax dodgers, most of whom sit in the houses. We are fucked.


----------



## Badgers (Sep 16, 2021)

Much as I enjoy the poster's here talking about how bad the EU is, it is nothing compared to the corruption, rabid press and greed that the UK offers.


----------



## bimble (Sep 16, 2021)

guardian's thing about the Brexit Opportunities list makes it sound a lot less ridiculous than the actual list is.

What does this bit mean: 
"Government procurement rules, which have required contracts from national to local council to go to open tender, would also be modified Lord Frost told the House of Lords."

so now they'll  be able to just give the contract to their mate and not have to feel embarrassed about it? great.


----------



## Saul Goodman (Sep 16, 2021)

bimble said:


> guardian's thing about the Brexit Opportunities list makes it sound a lot less ridiculous than the actual list is.
> 
> What does this bit mean:
> "Government procurement rules, which have required contracts from national to local council to go to open tender, would also be modified Lord Frost told the House of Lords."
> ...


I'd say that's exactly what it means


----------



## bimble (Sep 16, 2021)

Brexit in a parallel universe where some enlightened beings are in charge might have been great it might but in this universe with this lot of absolute shitheads in charge of defining what it means its exactly as good as you'd expect.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 16, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Much as I enjoy the poster's here talking about how bad the EU is, it is nothing compared to the corruption, rabid press and greed that the UK offers.


I’ve generally avoided Brexit debates as I don’t give a shit as it’s basically terrible either way. 
But I’ve never understood the rabid support of it by those who regard themselves as progressive coupled with the demonisation of anyone with an opposing view. In fact all it did was illustrate to me why the left in this country is kaput.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 16, 2021)

bimble said:


> Brexit in a parallel universe where some enlightened beings are in charge might have been great it might but in this universe with this lot of absolute shitheads in charge of defining what it means its exactly as good as you'd expect.


What about the people who want some kind of change? What should they have done? Yes they could have started a revolution but they’re stupid according to those they need to side with lol.


----------



## Saul Goodman (Sep 16, 2021)

bimble said:


> Brexit in a parallel universe where some enlightened beings are in charge might have been great it might but in this universe with this lot of absolute shitheads in charge of defining what it means its exactly as good as you'd expect.


It appears to be turning into everything I expected. Tories free from rules that prevented them from achieving peak Tory.


----------



## bimble (Sep 16, 2021)

Magnus McGinty said:


> What about the people who want some kind of change? What should they have done? Yes they could have started a revolution but they’re stupid according to those they need to side with lol.


i think 'some kind of change' was a lot of the leave vote yeah, but imo people were wildly optimistic to imagine it would be a change for the better. Or that things couldn't get any worse. i think brexiteers are / were optimists & remainers not.

i mean, brilliant news we can stop worrying so much about whether the plane is safe before taking off is listed as one of the brexit opportunities.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 16, 2021)

bimble said:


> i think 'some kind of change' was a lot of the leave vote yeah, but imo people were wildly optimistic to imagine it would be a change for the better. Or that things couldn't get any worse. i think brexiteers are / were optimists & remainers not.


The worst thing I’ve seen in all this is remainers expressing GLEE that jobs were being lost in Brexit heartlands without even understanding that lack of opportunity is what led people to Brexit. Honestly, it made me feel sick.


----------



## bimble (Sep 16, 2021)

Magnus McGinty said:


> The worst thing I’ve seen in all this is remainers expressing GLEE that jobs were being lost in Brexit heartlands without even understanding that lack of opportunity is what led people to Brexit. Honestly, it made me feel sick.


yes i see those people and they are shit people. Some leave voters are shit people too. best to not pay the shit people too much mind imo.


----------



## planetgeli (Sep 16, 2021)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I’ve generally avoided Brexit debates as I don’t give a shit as it’s basically terrible either way.
> But I’ve never understood the rabid support of it by those who regard themselves as progressive coupled with the demonisation of anyone with an opposing view. In fact all it did was illustrate to me why the left in this country is kaput.


Pretty much this.


Magnus McGinty said:


> The worst thing I’ve seen in all this is remainers expressing GLEE that jobs were being lost in Brexit heartlands without even understanding that lack of opportunity is what led people to Brexit. Honestly, it made me feel sick.



I haven't seen glee (though I'm not doubting some cunts may have expressed this). But what I have seen, that boils my piss, is a complete lack of understanding from some remainers in regards of why some parts of the UK, like my part (Wales) might have voted 52-48 against something that brought them precious little, such as in the valleys. We didn't get absolutely nothing (because nothing is as black and white as that) but besides, literally, a road or two we got very little down here.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Sep 16, 2021)

Magnus McGinty said:


> What about the people who want some kind of change?


Fuck knows. Not picking the thing that was obviously and always going to be a colossal clusterfuck and make things tangibly worse than they already were?

I understand why some voted leave. What I still can't get my head around is people ever thinking there was a chance of a "lexit", or it "creating opportunities for the left" etc. Yes, there's dozens of solid arguments for us being out the EU. But none of them worked - or will ever work - at that time with the shower of bastards we had/have in power. 

But it's all done, here we are. The argument is lost, ship is sinking and we're all going down with it. Yay.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 16, 2021)

planetgeli said:


> I haven't seen glee (though I'm not doubting some cunts may have expressed this).


you can see it in so many of philosophical's offerings.


----------



## planetgeli (Sep 16, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> you can see it in so many of philosophical's offerings.



I don't have anyone on ignore but I do try to ignore their shit. 

But yeah, fair point.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 16, 2021)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> Fuck knows. Not picking the thing that was obviously and always going to be a colossal clusterfuck and make things tangibly worse than they already were?
> 
> I understand why some voted leave. What I still can't get my head around is people ever thinking there was a chance of a "lexit", or it "creating opportunities for the left" etc. Yes, there's dozens of solid arguments for us being out the EU. But none of them worked - or will ever work - at that time with the shower of bastards we had/have in power.
> 
> But it's all done, here we are. The argument is lost, ship is sinking and we're all going down with it. Yay.


when people said leaving would create opportunities for the left i don't think anyone expected they'd be grasped and put into effect within 18 months of leaving the eu. let's not forget that the 2017 election was an election of choice called by theresa may and that no tory had to call a ge before last year. so when people were talking about opportunities in 2016 look at it from that pov they were in a  context in which the tories were in office until at least 2020.

the great clusterfuck is the thing which creates opportunities, there wouldn't be any opportunities if everything was going swimmingly.


----------



## JimW (Sep 16, 2021)

bimble said:


> guardian's thing about the Brexit Opportunities list makes it sound a lot less ridiculous than the actual list is.
> 
> What does this bit mean:
> "Government procurement rules, which have required contracts from national to local council to go to open tender, would also be modified Lord Frost told the House of Lords."
> ...


The open tender rules were originally there to make sure councils couldn't keep services in house. Of course the likelihood now is it'll mean cosy deals but the regulation isn't anything great in itself. See also all the Capita contracts etc that turn out to be bullshit bids.


----------



## bimble (Sep 16, 2021)

The way that people from both sides have been fixating for years on the absolute worst examples that they can find of the Other Side, to try to do character assassinations of / dismiss all the people who voted the other way in that referendum, its so crap. it might even be the most depressing thing out of all of it.


----------



## andysays (Sep 17, 2021)

bimble said:


> The way that people from both sides have been fixating for years on the absolute worst examples that they can find of the Other Side, to try to do character assassinations of / dismiss all the people who voted the other way in that referendum, its so crap. it might even be the most depressing thing out of all of it.


This is true, and I'm probably as guilty of it as anyone, but it does tend to be a feature of discussion/argument here on Urban (and elsewhere) at times.

We can't even claim polarisation as a benefit or consequence of Brexit


----------



## pbsmooth (Sep 17, 2021)

My bins didn't get collected due to driver shortage - thanks Brexit!


----------



## Badgers (Sep 17, 2021)

__





						Rules on GM farming and cars to be top of UK bonfire of EU laws | Brexit | The Guardian
					






					amp-theguardian-com.cdn.ampproject.org
				




#thiswillgowell


----------



## Supine (Sep 17, 2021)

Badgers said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I’m intrigued to see what medical device changes they propose. I don’t think anyone in the industry has any idea what they will be and most won’t be able to follow them as generally products are made for the international markets.


----------



## two sheds (Sep 17, 2021)

And lets hope all those unnecessary and bureaucratic automotive safety regulations go. We don't sell cars to Europe anyway.


----------



## Badgers (Sep 17, 2021)

Foreign companies will love to sell to us and to label weights in pounds and ounces.


----------



## Badgers (Sep 17, 2021)




----------



## Supine (Sep 17, 2021)

Good takedown on the weights and measures nonsense


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Sep 17, 2021)

This looks like a really interesting collection of articles:


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 17, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Foreign companies will love to sell to us and to label weights in pounds and ounces.


Surely marijuana still comes in ounces and divisions thereof?


----------



## bimble (Sep 17, 2021)

Crowns on your British pint, the heroic return of imperial measures, flags everywhere and this as well. exciting times. 

"The UK’s public service broadcasters will have a legal requirement to produce “distinctively British” programmes under plans drawn up by ministers.. Ofcom will be asked to draw up a workable definition of the concept."

Would love to know what the definition they come up with, assume it involves lots of tea.


----------



## Badgers (Sep 17, 2021)

Last of the Summer Wine reboot? 

The Good Life starring Ant and Dec?


----------



## MysteryGuest (Sep 17, 2021)

The Saying Sorry When Somebody Bumps Into You Show


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 17, 2021)

bimble said:


> Crowns on your British pint, the heroic return of imperial measures, flags everywhere and this as well. exciting times.
> 
> "The UK’s public service broadcasters will have a legal requirement to produce “distinctively British” programmes under plans drawn up by ministers.. Ofcom will be asked to draw up a workable definition of the concept."
> 
> Would love to know what the definition they come up with, assume it involves lots of tea.


Don't panic


----------



## Supine (Sep 17, 2021)

bimble said:


> "The UK’s public service broadcasters will have a legal requirement to produce “distinctively British” programmes under plans drawn up by ministers.. Ofcom will be asked to draw up a workable definition of the concept."
> 
> Would love to know what the definition they come up with, assume it involves lots of tea.



It means white people


----------



## bimble (Sep 17, 2021)

Napoleonic measurements ffs. Every now and then ive thougt, oh well at least Nige is miserable too but he's chirpy today


----------



## eatmorecheese (Sep 17, 2021)

Supine said:


> It means white people


More Big Narstie on the box. Quintessentially British


----------



## Supine (Sep 17, 2021)

eatmorecheese said:


> More Big Narstie on the box then. Quintessentially British



 I can absolutely guarantee that’s not what the Conservatives want


----------



## bimble (Sep 17, 2021)

state of this. The Uk's exports to eu are the only ones that have dropped in the first half of this year, everyone else's exports to EU went up. Our imports from the Eu also went up. This isn't covid.


----------



## discokermit (Sep 17, 2021)

im weeping. will no one think of the poor exporters.


----------



## Supine (Sep 17, 2021)

discokermit said:


> im weeping. will no one think of the poor exporters.



I think of the people who lose their jobs because of this. Morale is dire where I’m working at the mo due to brexit redundancies. One third of the workforce gone this year (so far).


----------



## bimble (Sep 17, 2021)

discokermit said:


> im weeping. will no one think of the poor exporters.


yeah, bloody exporters, trying to send our Great British things overseas.
This is good as well cos only posh people go to m&s and anyway we are not french. Marks & Spencer blames Brexit as it closes 11 French stores


----------



## Spymaster (Sep 17, 2021)

bimble said:


> state of this. The Uk's exports to eu are the only ones that have dropped in the first half of this year, everyone else's exports to EU went up. Our imports from the Eu also went up. This isn't covid.
> 
> View attachment 288757



What? 

UK exports to the EU actually _fell_ in the 6 months following Brexit!!!! 

Say it isn't so!


----------



## bimble (Sep 17, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> What?
> 
> UK exports to the EU actually _fell_ in the 6 months following Brexit!!!!
> 
> Say it isn't so!


i know, never mind its just teething problems.


----------



## gosub (Sep 17, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> What?
> 
> UK exports to the EU actually _fell_ in the 6 months following Brexit!!!!
> 
> Say it isn't so!



Ok.

It isn't so


They were n't exports to the EU while we in the EU, it was all EU internal trade.


----------



## bimble (Sep 17, 2021)

but mr johnson promised that we'd have 'frictionless trade' did he lie  ?


----------



## Spymaster (Sep 17, 2021)

bimble said:


> i know, never mind its just teething problems.



You're learning.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 17, 2021)

bimble said:


> but mr johnson promised that we'd have 'frictionless trade' did he lie  ?


I'm told there are no issues with the importation of ky


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 17, 2021)

bimble said:


> i know, never mind its just teething problems.


And we all know how long teething can last. Don't forget when baby teeth fall out in a few years time


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 17, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> What?
> 
> UK exports to the EU actually _fell_ in the 6 months following Brexit!!!!
> 
> Say it isn't so!


Completely unexpected. I thought the EU would simply make it easy for a country to leave the EU so as to encourage others.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 17, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Completely unexpected. I thought the EU would simply make it easy for a country to leave the EU so as to encourage others.


It is remarkably easy to check out. Buy you can't ever leave


----------



## bimble (Sep 17, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> You're learning.


you really think that's true ? Impressive if so. We will see, if we live long enough to be through the 'choppy waters' , which incidentally are full of delicious molluscs that are totally banned from ever again going to the Eu.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 17, 2021)

bimble said:


> you really think that's true ?


I might believe it in a few posts' time


----------



## Spymaster (Sep 17, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Completely unexpected.



A veritable bolt from the blue!


----------



## bimble (Sep 17, 2021)

How long do you feel the teething problems will last Spymaster ?


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 17, 2021)

bimble said:


> How long do you feel the teething problems will last Spymaster ?


How auld were you when you lost your last baby tooth?


----------



## Spymaster (Sep 17, 2021)

bimble said:


> How long do you feel the teething problems will last Spymaster ?



38 more days


----------



## gosub (Sep 17, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> 38 more days


 Whats that in lunar cycles?  This whole colander thing, its a bit.....Roman


----------



## bimble (Sep 17, 2021)

Brexiteers are like angry tooth fairy believers.


----------



## Yossarian (Sep 17, 2021)

Sometimes teething lasts for decades.

_When they are born, elephants have four small developing molars, which they lose at about two years of age. Each set of teeth thereafter lasts for a longer period of time until the final set, which arrives when they are around 30 - 40 years old._

From the Elephant’s Mouth: The Life Cycle of Elephant Teeth - Jabulani Safari


----------



## bimble (Sep 17, 2021)

I think it’ll be more like sharks, they are always teething.


----------



## andysays (Sep 17, 2021)

bimble said:


> you really think that's true ? Impressive if so. We will see, if we live long enough to be through the 'choppy waters' , which incidentally are full of delicious molluscs that are totally banned from ever again going to the Eu.


Do you think a long term reduction in exports to the EU is necessarily/inherently a bad thing?

If cheddar exports went down by 10%, say, but that spare cheddar was consumed in the UK, in parallel with a fall in brie imports, would that be something that should genuinely concern us?


----------



## Supine (Sep 17, 2021)

andysays said:


> Do you think a long term reduction in exports to the EU is necessarily/inherently a bad thing?
> 
> If cheddar exports went down by 10%, say, but that spare cheddar was consumed in the UK, in parallel with a fall in brie imports, would that be something that should genuinely concern us?



I’d say a reduction in exports is a bad thing for a trading nation. Might be good for environmental reasons though. 

A reduction in variety of cheeses would certainly be a shame. Although i do like to use lots of cheddar


----------



## bimble (Sep 17, 2021)

Not necessarily a bad thing by itself. The idea (which is the plan according to our gov)  that we will replace our trade with EU with trade with countries much further way, I do think that’s a bad thing. 
Also I don’t think reduced exports = spare cheddar, i think it just means less cheddar gets made.


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 17, 2021)

bimble said:


> Napoleonic measurements ffs. Every now and then ive thougt, oh well at least Nige is miserable too but he's chirpy today
> 
> View attachment 288753



Don't get it. What is it about measurements that he's happy about? How does it make you all more British?


----------



## bimble (Sep 17, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> Don't get it. What is it about measurements that he's happy about? How does it make you all more British?


It’s nostalgia for the good old days, when Britain was britisher.


----------



## gosub (Sep 17, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> Don't get it. What is it about measurements that he's happy about? How does it make you all more British?


Now you buy a Quarter pounder  burger or a sandwich by the foot or a pint


----------



## Yossarian (Sep 17, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> Don't get it. What is it about measurements that he's happy about? How does it make you all more British?



"Let's get rid of the Napoleonic measurements and bring back the good old British avoirdupois system introduced by French wool traders in the 14th century."


----------



## Supine (Sep 17, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> good old British avoirdupois



Sounds a little bit foreign for uk pensioners : brexiteers


----------



## two sheds (Sep 17, 2021)

Patel's probably convinced him that we need more rods and chains.


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 17, 2021)

But who will serve us our coffee at Pret?









						Pret A Manger shop staff get pay rise, as sector competes for workers
					

Sandwich chain Pret A Manger, which saw customer levels plunge during the pandemic, has said central London trade is improving and shop staff will get a 5% pay rise.




					www.standard.co.uk


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 17, 2021)

Supine said:


> Sounds a little bit foreign for uk pensioners : brexiteers


Many pensioners were castigated by remainers for actually living in Europe as I recall.


----------



## andysays (Sep 17, 2021)

bimble said:


> Not necessarily a bad thing by itself. The idea (which is the plan according to our gov)  that we will replace our trade with EU with trade with countries much further way, I do think that’s a bad thing.
> Also I don’t think reduced exports = spare cheddar, i think it just means less cheddar gets made.


There are many ways overall reduction in exports could happen, including my deliberately simplistic cheese example.

I'm glad you recognise that it isnt necessarily a bad thing in itself, because simply posting "exports down   " type comments does tend to suggest just that.

And I also don't think we should simply focus on what the government thinks should or will happen as if that's the only possible answer.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 17, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Patel's probably convinced him that we need more rods and chains.


I can think of at least one rod we can do without, without making more than a liddle effort


----------



## Supine (Sep 17, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Many pensioners were castigated by remainers for actually living in Europe as I recall.



What silliness is that? Remainers were looking to defend the right to live in Europe!

Taking the piss if they shot themselves in foot by voting brexit maybe!


----------



## Yossarian (Sep 17, 2021)

The Benidorm Brexiteers are an easy target, tbf.


----------



## not a trot (Sep 17, 2021)

bimble said:


> Brexiteers are like angry tooth fairy believers.


The older ones are most likely toothless in the literal sense.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Sep 17, 2021)

Supine said:


> Taking the piss if they shot themselves in foot by voting brexit maybe!


What did these people vote directly against their own interests? Despite the warnings from yourselves and others?


----------



## Supine (Sep 17, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> What did these people vote directly against their own interests? Despite the warnings from yourselves and others?



what point are you making? they didn’t consult me.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 17, 2021)

Supine said:


> what point are you making? they didn’t consult me.


Don't suppose you were on their list


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Sep 17, 2021)

Supine said:


> what point are you making? they didn’t consult me.


I don’t think it’s a very complex point to understand: why do you think the group you are ‘taking the piss out of’ voted the way they did?


----------



## Badgers (Sep 17, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> But who will serve us our coffee at Pret?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


5% of a low hourly wage? Likely on a zero hours contract? 

Pret are cunts founded by Nazi sympathisers so fuck them


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 17, 2021)

Badgers said:


> 5% of a low hourly wage? Likely on a zero hours contract?
> 
> Pret are cunts founded by Nazi sympathisers so fuck them


Explains why they only use white bread


----------



## bimble (Sep 17, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I don’t think it’s a very complex point to understand: why do you think the group you are ‘taking the piss out of’ voted the way they did?


This way of looking at stuff, do you feel the same compassion and respect is owing to Tory voters who may not actually benefit from electing more tories? If not why not.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Sep 17, 2021)

The ex-pats have always occupied a particular place in the continuity remain firmament. They are held to be:


too old
the wrong colour
the wrong class
too slow to comply with remainer expectations about how the British must behave abroad vis the dominant culture
inherently racist/conservative
an easy target for thwarted/anguished rage from those pompous enough to believe their way of life is the only one acceptable in polite society 

Yet this Overseas voters’ decisive Brexit-fuelled shift from Conservatives casts doubt on government Votes For Life pledge

indicates that ex-pats overwhelmingly votes remain. And Labour (or sadly liberal) at the election. Any remainer fancy explaining the irrational rage?


----------



## bimble (Sep 17, 2021)

Of course they mainly voted remain would be amazing if they hadn’t.


----------



## Supine (Sep 17, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I don’t think it’s a very complex point to understand: why do you think the group you are ‘taking the piss out of’ voted the way they did?



err, you brought them up not me. I have no idea why they voted and not particularly interested. Feel free to share your wealth of knowledge on the subject if you think the community will benefit.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Sep 17, 2021)

Supine said:


> err, you brought them up not me. I have no idea why they voted and not particularly interested. Feel free to share your wealth of knowledge on the subject if you think the community will benefit.


Ah, fair enough. I must have misunderstood who you were enjoying taking the piss out of:


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Sep 17, 2021)

bimble said:


> Of course they mainly voted remain would be amazing if they hadn’t.


So why the remainer hate then? All a bit stereotypical isn’t it? Fellow travellers for EU neo-liberalism too!


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 17, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> So why the remainer hate then? All a bit stereotypical isn’t it? Fellow travellers for EU neo-liberalism too!


It comes with m&s and Waitrose food


----------



## bimble (Sep 17, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> So why the remainer hate then? All a bit stereotypical isn’t it? Fellow travellers for EU neo-liberalism too!


Some people have enjoyed seeking out vox pops with a few odd bods like that one who appeared on here recently to tell us he's 'done the right thing for Great Britain' and then moved to spain, they find it cathartic to laugh at them. Its not a hobby shared by all avocado munching remoaniacs. 

You being surprised to discover that most brits who were living abroad at the time of the ref did not vote for brexit just strikes me as totally bizarre tbh what did you think.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 17, 2021)

bimble said:


> Some people have enjoyed seeking out vox pops with a few odd bods like that one who appeared on here recently to tell us he's 'done the right thing for Great Britain' and then moved to spain.
> 
> You being surprised to discover that most brits who were living abroad at the time of the ref did not vote for brexit just strikes me as totally bizarre tbh what did you think .


1.2m British people resident in the EU of course denied a vote


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Sep 17, 2021)

bimble said:


> You being surprised to discover that most brits who were living abroad at the time of the ref did not vote for brexit just strikes me as totally bizarre


I’m not surprised by that, I’m surprised by Remainer hate for that group..


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 17, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I’m not surprised by that, I’m surprised by Remainer hate for that group..


I'm not


----------



## bimble (Sep 17, 2021)

96% remain in Gibraltar I think. That 4% I hope they are friends.


----------



## bimble (Sep 17, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I’m not surprised by that, I’m surprised by Remainer hate for that group..


In the hate stakes I think you’re definitely winning, you know. You seem to think that  the worst people you can find on Twitter are representative somehow of everyone who voted remain.


----------



## Yossarian (Sep 17, 2021)

Not sure if the British EU migrants who voted against EU migration were a big enough constituency to attract hate, they're more of a curiosity.


----------



## ska invita (Sep 17, 2021)

bimble said:


> 96% remain in Gibraltar I think. That 4% I hope they are friends.


Gibraltar full of liberals, unlike real prole Brexit voting Expats elsewhere who were using their independent votes to independently kick back at years of neoliberal oppression.


----------



## bimble (Sep 17, 2021)

i have a question for the Brexiteers please.
Am curious about how you understand / interpret the fact that the older you were the more likely you were to vote leave.

Reminder, it looked like this:



why was that do you think?


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 17, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> The ex-pats have always occupied a particular place in the continuity remain firmament. They are held to be:
> 
> 
> too old
> ...


Wait till we get onto voters in the 'Red Wall' areas


----------



## gosub (Sep 17, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Gibraltar full of liberals, unlike real prole Brexit voting Expats elsewhere who were using their independent votes to independently kick back at years of neoliberal oppression.


  Have you spent any time in Gib?


----------



## kebabking (Sep 17, 2021)

bimble said:


> i have a question for the Brexiteers please.
> Am curious about how you understand / interpret the fact that the older you were the more likely you were to vote leave.
> 
> Reminder, it looked like this:
> ...



For me - 46, and an uncomfortable remainder - there was a definite feeling of resentment at having never been asked to consent to the growing power of the EU, and there never being any kind of non-loon voting option to say 'hang on...'.

As a nerdy, politics-wonk kid the EU/EC was a trade body with a laughable parliament full of cranks and nobodies, by the time of the referendum it had a president, a currency, a diplomatic service, the beginnings of a foreign policy, and perhaps most pervasive of all, the Master-Servant dynamic was definitely on the change.

If you were older, you'd probably feel that more keenly.


----------



## bimble (Sep 17, 2021)

kebabking said:


> For me - 46, and an uncomfortable remainder - there was a definite feeling of resentment at having never been asked to consent to the growing power of the EU, and there never being any kind of non-loon voting option to say 'hang on...'.
> 
> As a nerdy, politics-wonk kid the EU/EC was a trade body with a laughable parliament full of cranks and nobodies, by the time of the referendum it had a president, a currency, a diplomatic service, the beginnings of a foreign policy, and perhaps most pervasive of all, the Master-Servant dynamic was definitely on the change.
> 
> If you were older, you'd probably feel that more keenly.


Thats a good answer. I reckon a lot of other stuff to do with identity was probably more important but it's certainly likely that the (brilliant) 'take back control' message resonated especially with people who had been paying attention to those changes you're talking about.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Sep 17, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Wait till we get onto voters in the 'Red Wall' areas



All nativist ex-miners who own a house.


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 17, 2021)

Interesting article about how joining the EEC shifted both manufacturing/ production and port handling to the South of England 



			https://cep.lse.ac.uk/pubs/download/CP163.pdf


----------



## bimble (Sep 18, 2021)

The magic truffle website i just looked at has a dropdown menu for shipping, with all eu member countries only. Thanks brexit.


----------



## klang (Sep 18, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> I can think of at least one rod we can do without, without making more than a liddle effort


there are more appropriate threads to discuss wether Rod Stewart should be stripped of his citizenship after staging an ISIS-like beheading in the desert.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 18, 2021)

klang said:


> there are more appropriate threads to discuss wether Rod Stewart should be stripped of his citizenship after staging an ISIS-like beheading in the desert.


We will need gravediggers in the future. We will not need the likes of rod liddle.


----------



## teqniq (Sep 18, 2021)

I'll just leave this here:


----------



## Badgers (Sep 18, 2021)

Whoops


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 18, 2021)

gosub said:


> Have you spent any time in Gib?



They kill Irish people there, might give it a miss


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Sep 18, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> They kill Irish people there, might give it a miss



Tbf they weren’t there to pet the monkeys…


----------



## TopCat (Sep 19, 2021)

Fab whinging here. Foreigners taking our jobs? Not much chance of that now


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Sep 19, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Fab whinging here. Foreigners taking our jobs? Not much chance of that now



#worldbeatingwhinge


----------



## TopCat (Sep 19, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> #worldbeatingwhinge


The last paragraph is breathtaking.


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 19, 2021)

Interesting bit from the above article

_Economists at the Institute for Employment Studies estimate that some 200,000 EU citizens have left the UK as a result of Brexit. And in a recent survey by Ipsos Mori, 65% of respondents gave the commonsense answer that British firms should be allowed to recruit from overseas to fill the gaps – which would be a complete reversal of the end to free movement the Brexiters wanted._


----------



## TopCat (Sep 19, 2021)

Common sense response!


----------



## bimble (Sep 19, 2021)

its all going to be fine, liz truss is going to Reclaim Brexit.


----------



## TopCat (Sep 19, 2021)

bimble said:


> its all going to be fine, liz truss is going to Reclaim Brexit.
> View attachment 289118


Truss is repugnant.


----------



## bimble (Sep 19, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Truss is repugnant.


They all are. The people who get to decide what brexit means they want the opposite of what you want.


----------



## TopCat (Sep 19, 2021)

bimble said:


> They all are. The people who get to decide what brexit means they want the opposite of what you want.


Yeah but the reason we have this bunch of clowns is because labour opposed implementing Brexit.


----------



## bimble (Sep 19, 2021)

This clip from PMQs, it's short and worth a look, if just for the faces on Patel & Johnson.




eta

They absolutely know just cant believe one of their own is saying it.


----------



## Supine (Sep 19, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Yeah but the reason we have this bunch of clowns is because labour opposed implementing Brexit.



They didn’t. Corbyn tried his best to offer no opinion on brexit. Which is a shame as labour supporters were generally remainers.


----------



## bimble (Sep 19, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Yeah but the reason we have this bunch of clowns is because labour opposed implementing Brexit.


Cos if labour had been loudly Leave then they'd have won the election? i very much don't think so. But anyway, this brexit that's happening now is the one we are getting & it's an entirely tory brexit.


----------



## andysays (Sep 19, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Fab whinging here. Foreigners taking our jobs? Not much chance of that now


Keegan seems to be making this statement straight faced



> And the point is that this is all down to a reversal in the flow of east European workers on whom the British economy came to depend in the first two decades of this century.



Perhaps he's unable to recognise that it's actually the extent to which the British economy came to depend on the flow of east European workers in the first two decades of this century which was the real underlying problem.

It's true though that if Johnson does choose to fight the next election around Brexit, the realities of the way it was ill thought out and disastrously executed by him and his cronies may come back to bite him on the arse.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Sep 19, 2021)

Supine said:


> They didn’t. Corbyn tried his best to offer no opinion on brexit. Which is a shame as labour supporters were generally remainers.



That’s not true. Labour went into the last GE committed to a second referendum: 









						The Final Say on Brexit
					

Labour Party Manifesto 2019




					labour.org.uk


----------



## TopCat (Sep 19, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> That’s not true. Labour went into the last GE committed to a second referendum:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Innit. Amazing revisionist perception plus trying to blame Corbyn...


----------



## Supine (Sep 19, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Innit. Amazing revisionist perception plus trying to blame Corbyn...



Amazing scenes from brexiteers blaming labour for their tory brexit


----------



## TopCat (Sep 19, 2021)

Supine said:


> Amazing scenes from brexiteers blaming labour for their tory brexit


Well are you going to comment on your assertion re labour policy then?


----------



## brogdale (Sep 19, 2021)

bimble said:


> They all are. The people who get to decide what brexit means they want the opposite of what you want.


Brexit means nothing other than different people doing the same shit.


----------



## DownwardDog (Sep 19, 2021)

Supine said:


> Amazing scenes from brexiteers blaming labour for their tory brexit



At some point they are going to have to come to terms with the fact that they won.


----------



## Supine (Sep 19, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Well are you going to comment on your assertion re labour policy then?



I don’t see what i need to comment on. Brexit is shit and brexiteers don’t seem to be happy about winning. Because they realise it was a shit idea i’d imagine.


----------



## TopCat (Sep 19, 2021)

Supine said:


> They didn’t. Corbyn tried his best to offer no opinion on brexit. Which is a shame as labour supporters were generally remainers.


----------



## TopCat (Sep 19, 2021)

The Final Say on Brexit
					

Labour Party Manifesto 2019




					labour.org.uk


----------



## Supine (Sep 19, 2021)

TopCat said:


> The Final Say on Brexit
> 
> 
> Labour Party Manifesto 2019
> ...



Labour were shit on brexit imo. It has happened though and this thread is to celebrate all the Brexit benefits your team are implementing.


----------



## TopCat (Sep 19, 2021)

Supine said:


> Labour were shit on brexit imo. It has happened though and this thread is to celebrate all the Brexit benefits your team are implementing.


Why did you try to obscure their election position on Brexit?


----------



## Supine (Sep 19, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Why did you try to obscure their election position on Brexit?



I was commenting on their position generally. It was a throw away sentence not a phd thesis on brexit politics. Who cares anyway, move on.


----------



## TopCat (Sep 19, 2021)

Supine said:


> I was commenting on their position generally. It was a throw away sentence not a phd thesis on brexit politics. Who cares anyway, move on.


You just make this up as you go along.


----------



## Cerv (Sep 19, 2021)

TopCat said:


> You just make this up as you go along.


fitting. that's just like anyone in government involved in implementing Brexit then


----------



## philosophical (Sep 19, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Yeah but the reason we have this bunch of clowns is because labour opposed implementing Brexit.


Maybe because every fucker knows Brexit as voted for can’t be implemented. As a Brexit voter yourself how do you implement what was voted for in relation to the land border in Ireland?
The reason we have this bunch of clowns is because Brexit voters like you opened the door for them and scattered virtual rose petals in their path.
You blithely write that Truss is repugnant, yet she is your Brexit mate doing deals with Mongolia and Australia.
If you think you have any credibility regarding this Brexit nightmare prove it by solving the Irish border issue in a way that is true to the Brexit vote.
You can’t, you know you can’t, but you write on this thread as if anything you say is not a flimsy disguise for the xenophobic storm you have helped to whip up.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Sep 19, 2021)

Supine said:


> I was commenting on their position generally.



Their position ‘generally’ at the 2109 GE was indivisible from the remain campaign. Their position ‘generally’ at the 2017 GE was to respect and enact the result. Compare and contrast


----------



## Supine (Sep 19, 2021)




----------



## The39thStep (Sep 19, 2021)

Lib Dems Conference : Monday 20 September F37A F37A Emergency motion: Solving the Supply Chain Crisis



			https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/libdems/pages/61547/attachments/original/1632001667/embedpdf_Aut21_Conference_Agenda_v5_CD_sunday_book.pdf?1632001667


----------



## discokermit (Sep 19, 2021)

philosophical said:


> As a Brexit voter yourself how do you implement what was voted for in relation to the land border in Ireland?
> If you think you have any credibility regarding this Brexit nightmare prove it by solving the Irish border issue in a way that is true to the Brexit vote.
> You can’t, you know you can’t, but you write on this thread as if anything you say is not a flimsy disguise for the xenophobic storm you have helped to whip up.


A united ireland.
Or are you some sort of british imperialist wanting to hang on to the bits of empire still left?


----------



## gosub (Sep 19, 2021)

bimble said:


> This clip from PMQs, it's short and worth a look, if just for the faces on Patel & Johnson.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Sir Roger Gale would be negligent in his duties if he hadn't.  And Planet Thanet is a significant enough concern that if the Front Bench left the chamber not knowing there was shit that demanded attention they ain't up to the job.


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 19, 2021)

philosophical said:


> Maybe because every fucker knows Brexit as voted for can’t be implemented. As a Brexit voter yourself how do you implement what was voted for in relation to the land border in Ireland?
> The reason we have this bunch of clowns is because Brexit voters like you opened the door for them and scattered virtual rose petals in their path.
> You blithely write that Truss is repugnant, yet she is your Brexit mate doing deals with Mongolia and Australia.
> If you think you have any credibility regarding this Brexit nightmare prove it by solving the Irish border issue in a way that is true to the Brexit vote.
> You can’t, you know you can’t, but you write on this thread as if anything you say is not a flimsy disguise for the xenophobic storm you have helped to whip up.



Ah, here now.

It's a British border imposed on Ireland. Not an Irish border.


----------



## bimble (Sep 19, 2021)

gosub said:


> Sir Roger Gale would be negligent in his duties if he hadn't.  And Planet Thanet is a significant enough concern that if the Front Bench left the chamber not knowing there was shit that demanded attention they ain't up to the job.


The front bench know perfectly well , that’s what I thought was interesting about the clip. They know but they are ideologically opposed to giving it any attention or acknowledging there’s any issue.


----------



## bimble (Sep 19, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Brexit means nothing other than different people doing the same shit.


Not sure what you mean here. Unless just that post brexit more immigrants will come from outside the Eu etc.


----------



## gosub (Sep 19, 2021)

bimble said:


> The front bench know perfectly well , that’s what I thought was interesting about the clip. They know but they are ideologically opposed to giving it any attention or acknowledging there’s any issue.


Different faultline Free marketer's vs self sufficent. But either would be shooting itself in the foot not protecting a flagship that produces 1/3 of the fresh tomatoes eaten in the UK


----------



## bimble (Sep 19, 2021)

gosub said:


> Different faultline Free marketer's vs self sufficent. But either would be shooting itself in the foot not protecting a flagship that produces 1/3 of the fresh tomatoes eaten in the UK


Yeah but how should they protect the tomatoes?


----------



## philosophical (Sep 19, 2021)

discokermit said:


> A united ireland.
> Or are you some sort of british imperialist wanting to hang on to the bits of empire still left?


A united Ireland was not on the ballot paper and what has it got to do with UK voters on brexit as to what happens to the Republic of Ireland?


----------



## teqniq (Sep 19, 2021)

bimble said:


> This clip from PMQs, it's short and worth a look, if just for the faces on Patel & Johnson.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That, to me at least is very telling. It leads me to believe that they know they are skating on very thin ice. I wonder if one of the whips had a word later.


----------



## bimble (Sep 19, 2021)

teqniq said:


> That, to me at least is very telling. It leads me to believe that they know they are skating on very thin ice. I wonder if one of the whips had a word later.


The way they look at him it’s nothing but marking his card , that’s what I thought too.


----------



## philosophical (Sep 19, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> Ah, here now.
> 
> It's a British border imposed on Ireland. Not an Irish border.


Agree and now the UK voters want to fuck things up for Ireland even more. Age old anti Irish racism supported by those who voted leave.


----------



## discokermit (Sep 19, 2021)

philosophical said:


> Agree and now the UK voters want to fuck things up for Ireland even more. Age old anti Irish racism supported by those who voted leave.


lol. you fucking clown.


----------



## discokermit (Sep 19, 2021)

philosophical said:


> A united Ireland was not on the ballot paper and what has it got to do with UK voters on brexit as to what happens to the Republic of Ireland?


are you against ireland for the irish?


----------



## philosophical (Sep 19, 2021)

discokermit said:


> are you against ireland for the irish?



What did the wording on the Brexit ballot paper say about it?


----------



## teqniq (Sep 19, 2021)

This is an unashamedly ant-Brexit piece. What will be interesting to me at least is how much coverage any protests will get from the likes of the BBC:









						Brexit isn’t working: protest at the Tory Party Conference
					

Brexit is not going away, it’s the elephant in the room.



					northeastbylines.co.uk


----------



## discokermit (Sep 19, 2021)

philosophical said:


> What did the wording on the Brexit ballot paper say about it?


to me it said "vote yes and the only way out of this conundrum is a united ireland. "


----------



## bimble (Sep 19, 2021)

andysays said:


> It's true though that if Johnson does choose to fight the next election around Brexit, the realities of the way it was ill thought out and disastrously executed by him and his cronies may come back to bite him on the arse.


I think that, come next election, they will try very hard to not mention brexit at all.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 19, 2021)

bimble said:


> Not sure what you mean here. Unless just that post brexit more immigrants will come from outside the Eu etc.


That Brexit means nothing substantial has changed; capital's interests are still being served but by different subsets of politicians.


----------



## philosophical (Sep 19, 2021)

discokermit said:


> to me it said "vote yes and the only way out of this conundrum is a united ireland. "



This is what it actually said.


----------



## bimble (Sep 19, 2021)

there was this anti-protocol demo in ulster on friday. 



There's no way that there'll just be no border is there, and thats what they want?









						Video: Belfast protest against Brexit protocol border attracts about 350 people
					

A crowd of around 350 people gathered on the Newtownards Road in east Belfast on Friday, as an anti Northern Ireland Protocol protest took place.




					www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 19, 2021)

bimble said:


> there was this anti-protocol demo in ulster on friday.
> View attachment 289242
> View attachment 289241
> 
> ...


Let battle commence


----------



## bimble (Sep 19, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> Let battle commence


you dont live there do you?


----------



## Old Gergl (Sep 19, 2021)

.


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 19, 2021)

bimble said:


> you dont live there do you?



Does that matter?


----------



## bimble (Sep 19, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> Does that matter?


i mean, 'let battle commence!' is a bit less heroic if its said by someone who knows that they personally wouldn't suffer in any way, from the battle, thats all.


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 19, 2021)

bimble said:


> i mean, 'let battle commence!' is a bit less heroic if its said by someone who knows that they personally wouldn't suffer in any way, from the battle, thats all.


 Irish people are all about the globe.

Many of them have fought for the country, despite geographical distances. Some came home. 

Some fought for other just causes, like against Franco etc.

Just because someone may not be in their homelands doesn't mean they don't care or have a say in the future.


----------



## bimble (Sep 19, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> Irish people are all about the globe.
> 
> Many of them have fought for the country, despite geographical distances. Some came home.
> 
> ...


so you are hoping for a proper war to get to a united ireland?


----------



## andysays (Sep 19, 2021)

bimble said:


> so you are hoping for a proper war to get to a united ireland?


And I'm sure as soon as it does kick off he'll be on the first plane from Toyko back to his homeland


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 19, 2021)

bimble said:


> so you are hoping for a proper war to get to a united ireland?


More of a cold war, tbh.

Funny how Brits can pontificate about the rest of the world but gods forbid the oppressed should have a say in their own matters.


----------



## bimble (Sep 19, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> More of a cold war, tbh.
> 
> Funny how Brits can pontificate about the rest of the world but gods forbid the oppressed should have a say in their own matters.


just a cold war ? How would that work then.
I don't think i'm pontificating, but it is a bit funny that you're cheering the brexit delivered by brits who were not thinking about Ireland at all as your great national opportunity.


----------



## discokermit (Sep 19, 2021)

the fucking nerve of some people. imperialism is ingrained in them.


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 19, 2021)

bimble said:


> just a cold war ? How would that work then.
> I don't think i'm pontificating, but it is a bit funny that you're cheering the brexit delivered by brits who were not thinking about Ireland at all as your great national opportunity.



Strange bedfellows etc

You've given us an opportunity to leave the hideous, oppressive union.

Thankful for that.


----------



## bimble (Sep 19, 2021)

discokermit said:


> the fucking nerve of some people. imperialism is ingrained in them.


is that me? lol.


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 19, 2021)

bimble said:


> is that me? lol.



Is it?

Don't you think your country's decision impacts others?

Expected them to just sit there without consequences, perhaps?


----------



## andysays (Sep 19, 2021)

bimble said:


> is that me? lol.


I hear you're a British imperialist now, bimble


----------



## bimble (Sep 19, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> Is it?
> 
> Don't you think your country's decision impacts others?
> 
> Expected them to just sit there without consequences, perhaps?


Do you mean, i should have thought about voting brexit in order to help the cause of a united ireland?
Really not sure what you're saying tbh.
I don't think i'm a great example of a british imperialist though, feeling as i do very keenly the fact that i'm only here by chance cos they let my immigrant parents in.


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 19, 2021)

bimble said:


> Do you mean, i should have thought about voting brexit in order to help the cause of a united ireland?
> Really not sure what you're saying tbh.
> I don't think i'm a great example of a british imperialist though, feeling as i do very keenly the fact that i'm only here by chance cos they let my immigrant parents in.



One of my parents was an immigrant. Not sure what that has to do with anything of this current nature.

Voted remain, this self did.

But with hindsight, it's the best thing to have happened. In terms of actual freedom for at least one country.

Britain has its independence. Not that it was actually oppressed like Ireland was, of course.

Now it's Ireland's turn.


----------



## kebabking (Sep 19, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> Is it?
> 
> Don't you think your country's decision impacts others?
> 
> Expected them to just sit there without consequences, perhaps?



Do you think that your country - or whatever county with a death penalty you've chosen to live in - should consider the effect on other states when deciding it's policies, or is that just something Brits should do...?


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 19, 2021)

kebabking said:


> Do you think that your country - or whatever county with a death penalty you've chosen to live in - should consider the effect on other states when deciding it's policies, or is that just something Brits should do...?



Do you think anyone here should comment or have an opinion on other countries and regimes?

What does someones location have to do with anything?

The UK has a depth penalty, btw. On the poor, migrants, the working class. Always has done, just not official anymore.


----------



## andysays (Sep 19, 2021)

kebabking said:


> Do you think that your country - or whatever county with a death penalty you've chosen to live in - should consider the effect on other states when deciding it's policies, or is that just something Brits should do...?


Come on now, everyone knows that Britain is the only country with a history of empire, and that everyone now living here is guilty of oppressing the Irish.

The fact that someone has chosen to live in a country with the death penalty, which still has an emperor and which has in living memory been responsible for a war of racist conquest to expand its empire shouldn't prevent them from indulging in a bit of rosy-eyed romanticism about homelands and stuff, shirley...


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 19, 2021)

andysays said:


> Come on now, everyone knows that Britain is the only country with a history of empire, and that everyone now living here is guilty of oppressing the Irish.
> 
> The fact that someone has chosen to live in a country with the death penalty, which still has an emperor and which has in living memory been responsible for a war of racist conquest to expand its empire shouldn't prevent them from indulging in a bit of rosy-eyed romanticism about homelands and stuff, shirley...



Patronising bobbins and tedious excuses for centuries of bloody oppression.

Again, what has Japan got to do with Irish self determination?


----------



## TopCat (Sep 19, 2021)

A united ireland is getting closer. This makes me very happy.


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 19, 2021)

TopCat said:


> A united ireland is getting closer. This makes me very happy.



Yep.

Seems to be making some a bit aggressive and engaging in deflection, oddly.

The rosy eyed accusations are positively old school Punch Magazine.


----------



## discokermit (Sep 19, 2021)

andysays said:


> Come on now, everyone knows that Britain is the only country with a history of empire, and that everyone now living here is guilty of oppressing the Irish.
> 
> The fact that someone has chosen to live in a country with the death penalty, which still has an emperor and which has in living memory been responsible for a war of racist conquest to expand its empire shouldn't prevent them from indulging in a bit of rosy-eyed romanticism about homelands and stuff, shirley...


Can you supply a list of where the diaspora is allowed to live? ta.


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 19, 2021)

andysays said:


> The fact that someone has chosen to live in a country with the death penalty, which still has an emperor and which has in living memory been responsible for a war of racist conquest to expand its empire shouldn't prevent them from indulging in a bit of rosy-eyed romanticism about homelands and stuff, shirley...



Hmm, you had a problem when someone else complained about this self living in Japan...



andysays said:


> TBH, it appears that's exactly what you're doing to krtek a houby.
> 
> 
> I thought this comment was a bit off when I read it earlier this morning, and it hasn't got any better with the passing of a few hours.


Tokyo Olympics Composer is a shit


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 19, 2021)

discokermit said:


> Can you supply a list of where the diaspora is allowed to live? ta.



Pontins is off the list, for sure


----------



## bimble (Sep 19, 2021)

I dont know much about any of it tbh but I'd be surprised if many mainland brits give a shit about northern Irelend staying British. Is that wrong, i mean are there people outside NI who care about maintaining 'the union'?


----------



## Badgers (Sep 19, 2021)

bimble said:


> I dont know much about any of it tbh but I'd be surprised if many mainland brits give a shit about northern Irelend staying British. Is that wrong, i mean are there people outside NI who care about maintaining 'the union'?


The #ToryScum in a hung election?


----------



## andysays (Sep 19, 2021)

bimble said:


> I dont know much about any of it tbh but I'd be surprised if many mainland brits give a shit about northern Irelend staying British. Is that wrong, i mean are there a lot of people outside NI who care about the union?


As far as krtek is concerned, all Brits are equally guilty of centuries of oppression of his homeland, whether it's you whose parents were immigrants from elsewhere in Europe, or even my wife whose grandparents' village in the Philippines was destroyed by invaders from the country he now lectures us all about imperialism from.

Not knowing much about it or particularly caring doesn't absolve you of any guilt in his eyes, if you're a Brit, you're an oppressor, end of story.


----------



## bimble (Sep 19, 2021)

I get that, and i'm still a bit of an anti-german racist due to things that happened before i was even born so am not totally unsympathetic. But like krtek a houby seems to think it would be normal for an English to get cross or upset about the idea of NI not being British anymore, which just seems weird because i think nobody would care.


----------



## andysays (Sep 19, 2021)

bimble said:


> I get that, and i'm still a bit of an anti-german racist due to things that happened before i was even born so am not totally unsympathetic. But like krtek a houby seems to think it would be normal for an English to get cross or upset about the idea of NI not being British anymore, which just seems weird because i think nobody would care.


No, it's "collective guilt" bullshit however anyone tries to explain/excuse it, but what makes it even worse in his case is that it only applies to the Brits, and he can't see his utter hypocrisy in attacking British imperialism at every opportunity, whether it's relevant or not, and simultaneously choosing to live somewhere which has its own abhorrent imperial history, not to mention still having the death penalty etc.


----------



## Badgers (Sep 19, 2021)

Not Brexit but interesting long thread from a lorry driver..


----------



## philosophical (Sep 19, 2021)

Isn't it a problem because British Imperialism is still up and running and alive and kicking with regard to the Irish, it is a current problem even now, not some kind of dim and distant past issue.
The Brexit vote, which included disdain and disregard for the Irish issue that a leave vote would exacerbate, combined with no regard to the practicalities caused on that island by a land border between two different systems. We have those with influence like Stanley Johnson saying the Irish will always shoot each other, Boris Johnson previously saying that the Irish issue was the tail wagging the dog, Priti Patel suggesting using food supply that may go through the UK land bridge as a weapon in negotiation, as in starve the Irish into submission, the UK itself signed up to a protocol that they want to renege on, and posted on here today are scenes from Unionist protests angry at what their own government voted for.
British Imperialism, and imperialist attitudes are woven into the culture, and that part of Ireland is in turmoil but some of those who voted for it by voting leave (often those who go on about being of the left and therefore the good guys) are trying to cover up the damage they do by saying what their aim really is is a United Ireland.
Fuck those leave voters, they are liars trying to equivocate their way to a soft landing that isn't going to happen.


----------



## kebabking (Sep 19, 2021)

bimble said:


> that, and i'm still a bit of an anti-german racist due to things that happened before i was even born so am not totally unsympathetic. But like krtek a houby seems to think it would be normal for an English to get cross or upset about the idea of NI not being British anymore, which just seems weird because i think nobody would care.



It would be difficult to put my indifference about what NI does into words - indeed I would actually prefer them to leave the UK, with what they do afterwards a matter of so little importance or interest to me that I have no actual opinion on it...

krtek a houby's real rage is that no one in GB gives a flea-sized shit about NI, and that the only people who block his beloved - but not enough to actually live there, obviously - dream of a UI are the people who do, in fact, live there.


----------



## Cerv (Sep 19, 2021)

discokermit said:


> to me it said "vote yes and the only way out of this conundrum is a united ireland. "


I don’t think I believe you. There were another ways out of ‘this conundrum’ for example the UK could have left the EU but stayed within the single market & customs union _as many times the leave campaigners said we would and should_ 
So even if NI leaving the UK was your personally preferred option, can you really say it you thought at the time in 2016 it was the only option?


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 19, 2021)

andysays said:


> As far as krtek is concerned, all Brits are equally guilty of centuries of oppression of his homeland, whether it's you whose parents were immigrants from elsewhere in Europe, or even my wife whose grandparents' village in the Philippines was destroyed by invaders from the country he now lectures us all about imperialism from.
> 
> Not knowing much about it or particularly caring doesn't absolve you of any guilt in his eyes, if you're a Brit, you're an oppressor, end of story.


Lol. What rot.

You haven't explained what Japan has to do with anything?

You gave out about another poster doing exactly what you're doing, only a few weeks back.

People migrate all the time.

Do they get a say in anything else, once they leave? Do they suddenly stop being Irish or British, etc?

Tiocfaidh ar la and again, thanks for Brexit.


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 19, 2021)

bimble said:


> I dont know much about any of it tbh but I'd be surprised if many mainland brits give a shit about northern Irelend staying British. Is that wrong, i mean are there people outside NI who care about maintaining 'the union'?



What is this "mainland", you speak of? 

There's plenty of expats of a unionist leaning around the world. From conservative to full on fash. Believe some of them even got to vote leaving the EU.


----------



## discokermit (Sep 19, 2021)

Cerv said:


> I don’t think I believe you. There were another ways out of ‘this conundrum’ for example the UK could have left the EU but stayed within the single market & customs union _as many times the leave campaigners said we would and should_
> So even if NI leaving the UK was your personally preferred option, can you really say it you thought at the time in 2016 it was the only option?


I exaggerated for effect. i thought it was an option though and with a roll of the dice like brexit, you never know what might turn up.


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 20, 2021)

kebabking said:


> It would be difficult to put my indifference about what NI does into words - indeed I would actually prefer them to leave the UK, with what they do afterwards a matter of so little importance or interest to me that I have no actual opinion on it...
> 
> krtek a houby's real rage is that no one in GB gives a flea-sized shit about NI, and that the only people who block his beloved - but not enough to actually live there, obviously - dream of a UI are the people who do, in fact, live there.



People migrate for many reasons. Will quote these posters on the other thread this self linked to earlier, as they put it more precisely than this self could



redsquirrel said:


> Frankly GTFO.
> People are not responsible for the actions of the government of the country they live in. The idea that people have some perfectly free choice to live wherever they wish is the same type of stupid 'personal responsibility' bullshit that is going to kill hundreds (or more) here in the UK over the next few months.





S☼I said:


> Don't know why it should need explaining that all countries have good and bad stuff. Having a go at someone for moving somewhere there are problems is a bit silly tbh.



People who move around have just as much right to have a say, as those that remain. Be it marching for Palestine, or against Myanmar coups, or any conflict/ongoing situation.

We go where we have to. 

Some of us come home, some don't. But you might as well not comment or have opinions on anything outside of the UK, if you apply the logic that just because someone doesn't live in their homeland doesn't get a say anymore.

And there's many, many folks who give more than a flea-sized shit about the occupied 6 counties.


----------



## MrSki (Sep 20, 2021)




----------



## bimble (Sep 20, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> There's plenty of expats of a unionist leaning around the world. From conservative to full on fash. Believe some of them even got to vote leaving the EU.


ok, I think you are talking about expats meaning people who used to live in or trace their roots back to NI, so does that mean you agree that your average english person (however imperialist they may be) doesn't give a shit either way about NI being British or not?


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 20, 2021)

bimble said:


> ok, I think you are talking about expats meaning people who used to live in or trace their roots back to NI, so does that mean you agree that your average english person (however imperialist they may be) doesn't give a shit either way about NI being British or not?



You have unionists in this "mainland" place you speak of. Not just the occupied 6 counties. Have met plenty of Tories over the years, in and out of the UK who are quite enthusiastic about hanging on to NI. And of course, there's the loyalists.

There are even ties with the American right and nativists who are all for it, as well.

It's important, imho, that the "average" citizen in the UK does give a shit. With a bit more understanding and context, they might appreciate why the union must be broken and the evils of partition consigned to the dustbin.


----------



## Yossarian (Sep 20, 2021)

While opinions differ on NI remaining part of the UK, I think almost everybody finds the weird fuckers with the bowler hats and bonfires more foreign than the Dutch, Danish, Germans etc.


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 20, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> While opinions differ on NI remaining part of the UK, I think almost everybody finds the weird fuckers with the bowler hats and bonfires more foreign than the Dutch, Danish, Germans etc.



Quirky but they'll be welcomed with open arms into the all-inclusive socialist 32 county Republic


----------



## Badgers (Sep 20, 2021)

Shit lying paper quoting shit lying man shocker. 

People still voted leave


----------



## bimble (Sep 20, 2021)

I am very ignorant about all of it but looks like whilst its true that most british people would not care if NI buggered off out of the union remoaners more likely to favour a UI. 
 'Those who voted for Britain to Remain in the EU in the 2016 referendum are more likely (23%) to want Northern Ireland to leave the Union and join the Republic than are those who voted Leave (15%).'


			https://www.ipsos.com/ipsos-mori/en-uk/one-three-britons-would-mind-if-northern-ireland-voted-leave-uk-poll-finds


----------



## Spymaster (Sep 20, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> It's important, imho, that the "average" citizen in the UK does give a shit. With a bit more understanding and context, they might appreciate why the union must be broken and the evils of partition consigned to the dustbin.


You’re out of luck then because they don’t. Bimble’s right. The only non-Irish-connected Brits with much of an opinion are the hard right and the hard left. Give everyone else the option on a ballot sheet and “don’t care” would win by a landslide.


----------



## bimble (Sep 20, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Bimble’s right.


for posterity.


----------



## philosophical (Sep 20, 2021)

A United Ireland and an Independent Scotland needs to happen to get away from the vile (mainly English). However nationalism is a totally shit idea and notion, and yet here am I using descriptors based on nations. My reason is because the perma power English based ruling class is so vile and nasty, racist and rank, that nobody could blame Scotland and Ireland as a whole for wanting to get out from under.
Patriotism is also a shit dangerous concept, a concept ridden by all the ruling bastards in each ‘nation’ on these islands.
It would be OK to fight and die resisting oppression, but in my view to do such a thing ‘for your country’ simply plays into the hands of the powerful who would want to use you for their own ends. No need to romanticise Ireland and Scotland, any more than England and Wales, there are cunts everywhere, at least the EU tended to dilute nationalism.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 20, 2021)

bimble said:


> for posterity.


Let's hope he has cause to post that again


----------



## Spymaster (Sep 20, 2021)

philosophical said:


> A United Ireland and an Independent Scotland needs to happen to get away from the vile (mainly English). However nationalism is a totally shit idea and notion, and yet here am I using descriptors based on nations. My reason is because the perma power English based ruling class is so vile and nasty, racist and rank, that nobody could blame Scotland and Ireland as a whole for wanting to get out from under.
> Patriotism is also a shit dangerous concept, a concept ridden by all the ruling bastards in each ‘nation’ on these islands.
> It would be OK to fight and die resisting oppression, but in my view to do such a thing ‘for your country’ simply plays into the hands of the powerful who would want to use you for their own ends. No need to romanticise Ireland and Scotland, any more than England and Wales, there are cunts everywhere, at least the EU tended to dilute nationalism.



Oh fuck off, you boring cunt.


----------



## Spymaster (Sep 20, 2021)

bimble said:


> for posterity.



If you post enough, sooner or later it happens by accident!


----------



## Spymaster (Sep 20, 2021)

.


----------



## philosophical (Sep 20, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Oh fuck off, you boring cunt.



Hahahahaha.
Surely you could be a bit more creative and original in your abuse?
Your effort is boring and predictable.
Maybe you call yourself English.


----------



## Spymaster (Sep 20, 2021)

philosophical said:


> Maybe you call yourself English.


 You think only English people think you're a knob?


----------



## TopCat (Sep 20, 2021)

philosophical said:


> Hahahahaha.
> Surely you could be a bit more creative and original in your abuse?
> Your effort is boring and predictable.
> Maybe you call yourself English.


Don’t you live in Catford, surrounded by the vile English? Yeah you are that bloke who shouts to himself in the shopping centre.


----------



## philosophical (Sep 20, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Don’t you live in Catford, surrounded by the vile English? Yeah you are that bloke who shouts to himself in the shopping centre.



Not quite Catford.
An accident of birth is an accident of birth, not something you wave around to demonstrate exceptionalism.
Those people in my local community are diverse, and not assessed according to nationality.
Luckily the majority of people in this diverse community did not vote Brexit like your fellow travellers Priti Patel, Boris Johnson, Jacob Rees Mogg, Stephen Yakitty Lookatme and the rest. 
Abuse me all you want, I can live with it, to be the subject of abuse from Brexit supporters is a comfort that I must be thinking along the right lines, carry on.


----------



## philosophical (Sep 20, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> You think only English people think you're a knob?


 Ah, you speak for all your imaginary hordes that have your back do you?


----------



## Spymaster (Sep 20, 2021)

Lol.


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 20, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> If you post enough, sooner or later it happens by accident!


----------



## two sheds (Sep 20, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Lol.


Numerous PMs of support coming in.


----------



## Spymaster (Sep 20, 2021)

philosophical said:


> Not quite Catford.
> An accident of birth is an accident of birth, not something you wave around to demonstrate exceptionalism.
> Those people in my local community are diverse, and not assessed according to nationality.
> Luckily the majority of people in this diverse community did not vote Brexit like your fellow travellers Priti Patel, Boris Johnson, Jacob Rees Mogg, Stephen Yakitty Lookatme and the rest.
> Abuse me all you want, I can live with it, to be the subject of abuse from Brexit supporters is a comfort that I must be thinking along the right lines, carry on.



Tldr.

See post 7095.


----------



## bimble (Sep 20, 2021)

the reason nobody likes philosophical is because they're the only person who has been totally correct about brexit the whole time.


----------



## xenon (Sep 20, 2021)

I see this thread is still quite "special" then.


----------



## kebabking (Sep 20, 2021)

bimble said:


> the reason nobody likes philosophical is because they're the only person who has been totally correct about brexit the whole time.



Amusingly, it's attitudes like that - that support the arch twat philosophical - that _caused_ brexit.

The English are vile, the English are stupid, the English should manage their affairs for the benefit of others - your _stunning_ lack of self-awareness is a spectacle in itself...


----------



## bimble (Sep 20, 2021)

xenon said:


> I see this thread is still quite "special" then.


i'm surprised its so niche and not more popular, its the argument clinic, a simmering pointless fight available on demand any time you feel like it.


----------



## two sheds (Sep 20, 2021)

Rivalled only by Entirely unashamed anti car propaganda, and the more the better. for most divisive, bad tempered thread of the year


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 20, 2021)

Not sure as to how much weight to put on this but its an interesting allegation 









						Starmer sabotaged soft Brexit talks to aid his leadership ambitions￼
					

Back in August 2019 the journalist Patrick Cockburn warned that Boris Johnson’s prorogation of parliament was the start of a slow-moving coup, aiming to progressively marginalize opposition to…




					coloneldespard.wordpress.com
				




Begs the question as to how much power  the suicidal second referendum lobby had within Labour.


----------



## xenon (Sep 20, 2021)

It's bonkers, from quite a few different angles.
E2a in reply to Bimble's 7110.


----------



## xenon (Sep 20, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Rivalled only by Entirely unashamed anti car propaganda, and the more the better. for most divisive, bad tempered thread of the year



Too much boring motoring specifics in that thread for me though. It's like a radio phone in when a dull stand in presenter picks a motoring topic and gets interminable calls about how their local council have done... *snore**


----------



## philosophical (Sep 20, 2021)

kebabking said:


> Amusingly, it's attitudes like that - that support the arch twat philosophical - that _caused_ brexit.
> 
> The English are vile, the English are stupid, the English should manage their affairs for the benefit of others - your _stunning_ lack of self-awareness is a spectacle in itself...



I caused Brexit now is it.
Wonders will never cease.
If you’re that interested, what I wrote this morning was ‘the perma power based English ruling class is so vile, and racist and nasty and rank’.
Ruling class.


----------



## Spymaster (Sep 20, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Rivalled only by Entirely unashamed anti car propaganda, and the more the better. for most divisive, bad tempered thread of the year


No, that one's just a piss-take. People actually take this one seriously.


----------



## gosub (Sep 20, 2021)

bimble said:


> the reason nobody likes philosophical is because they're the only person who has been totally correct about brexit the whole time.



tbh I don't recall his input at the time that mattered i.e b4 rhe referendum.


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 20, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> You’re out of luck then because they don’t. Bimble’s right. The only non-Irish-connected Brits with much of an opinion are the hard right and the hard left. Give everyone else the option on a ballot sheet and “don’t care” would win by a landslide.



Excellent. A united Republic of Ireland it is.


----------



## bimble (Sep 20, 2021)

gosub said:


> tbh I don't recall his input at the time that mattered i.e b4 rhe referendum.


i'm sure he started posting about the irish border problem in about 2003.


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 20, 2021)

bimble said:


> i'm sure he started posting about the irish border problem in about 2003.



British border. Imposed on Ireland. By the British.


----------



## gosub (Sep 20, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> Do you think anyone here should comment or have an opinion on other countries and regimes?
> 
> What does someones location have to do with anything?
> 
> The UK has a depth penalty, btw. On the poor, migrants, the working class. Always has done, just not official anymore.


I don't remember you banging on like this in 2014, when all of Scotland would have told you to piss off.

I enjoyed that referendum, sadly looking I won't get back to Scotland in time to qualify for a vote this time but I totally got


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 20, 2021)

gosub said:


> I don't remember you banging on like this in 2014, when all of Scotland would have told you to piss off.
> 
> I enjoyed that referendum, sadly looking I won't get back to Scotland in time to qualify for a vote this time but I totally got




Times change.  Scotland too, will be free.


----------



## Spymaster (Sep 20, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> Excellent. A united Republic of Ireland it is.



Fine by me.

This notion that some Irish have that the English hate them and want to keep them subjugated is tosh though. Again, a handful of bellends are like that. Nobody else gives a monkey's. The most consideration your average Englishman gives Ireland, regards Guinness and rugby.


----------



## gosub (Sep 20, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> Times change.  Scotland too, will be free.



If it is, will be a Scottish decision taken by the people of Scotland i.e living there (and eligible to vote)


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 20, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Fine by me.
> 
> This notion that some Irish have that the English hate them and want to keep them subjugated is tosh though. Again, a handful of bellends are like that. Nobody else gives a monkey's.



Thanks for your blessing 

No problems with the English. Would hardly have lived there for 20 years if so 

Successive shit governments, mind...


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 20, 2021)

gosub said:


> If it is, will be a Scottish decision taken by the people of Scotland i.e living there (and eligible to vote)



Good for them. 

In the meantime, no British politicians or pundits will determine Ireland's glorious future.

Those days are long gone.


----------



## philosophical (Sep 20, 2021)

gosub said:


> tbh I don't recall his input at the time that mattered i.e b4 rhe referendum.


I didn’t join this site until after the referendum.
My input was elsewhere.


----------



## gosub (Sep 20, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> Good for them.
> 
> In the meantime, no British politicians or pundits will determine Ireland's glorious future.
> 
> Those days are long gone.


Might be slightly more 'glorious' if you didn't have Commissioners making pronouncements without even talking to the Taoiseach


----------



## gosub (Sep 20, 2021)

philosophical said:


> I didn’t join this site until after the referendum.
> My input was elsewhere.


Thats what I thought.  though I checked your join date which says different.


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 20, 2021)

gosub said:


> Might be slightly more 'glorious' if you didn't have Commissioners making pronouncements without even talking to the Taoiseach



An interim Taoiseach, part of a junta who suppressed the Sinn Fein vote.

But yes, the EU should tread carefully. Nobody wants them to determine a detrimental future.


----------



## ElizabethofYork (Sep 20, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> Good for them.
> 
> In the meantime, no British politicians or pundits will determine Ireland's glorious future.
> 
> Those days are long gone.


Enjoy cheering on Ireland's glorious future from your home far away.


----------



## philosophical (Sep 20, 2021)

gosub said:


> Thats what I thought.  though I checked your join date which says different.


Actually you are right in one respect. I occasionally posted on the Dulwich Hamlet forum that I discovered via another route. I thought it was stand alone, but later discovered this whole website was behind it.
However I did not start posting on any part that wasn’t Dulwich Hamlet related until after the referendum.
My joining date (I can’t discover it) would be related to my early posts on the football forum for DHFC.


----------



## Badgers (Sep 20, 2021)

We have the best empty shelves in the world. Wot Ho


----------



## bimble (Sep 20, 2021)

philosophical said:


> Actually you are right in one respect. I occasionally posted on the Dulwich Hamlet forum that I discovered via another route. I thought it was stand alone, but later discovered this whole website was behind it.
> However I did not start posting on any part that wasn’t Dulwich Hamlet related until after the referendum.
> My joining date (I can’t discover it) would be related to my early posts on the football forum for DHFC.


You've made up for it though. i just did a little search for posts with the word ireland in them by you and the results went on for Sixteen pages.


----------



## two sheds (Sep 20, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Fine by me.
> 
> This notion that some Irish have that the English hate them and want to keep them subjugated is tosh though. Again, a handful of bellends are like that. Nobody else gives a monkey's. The most consideration your average Englishman gives Ireland, regards Guinness and rugby.


Was talking in a pub in Ireland 30 years ago with a bloke who I was told afterwards was the 'nearest thing we have in the area to IRA'. He'd said to me 'we don't have a problem with the English, it's the British Government we have a problem with' which was fine with me because that's how I felt too.


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 20, 2021)

ElizabethofYork said:


> Enjoy cheering on Ireland's glorious future from your home far away.



You seem quite obsessed with where this self lives.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Sep 20, 2021)

Neither brexit nor remain!

We want revolution!


----------



## andysays (Sep 20, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> You seem quite obsessed with where *this self* lives.


Out of interest, where does the "this self" thing that you seem to use when referring to yourself where most people would just say "I" or "me" come from?

I noticed your use of it a while ago and it's something I've never come across anyone else saying...


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 20, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Was talking in a pub in Ireland 30 years ago with a bloke who I was told afterwards was the 'nearest thing we have in the area to IRA'. He'd said to me 'we don't have a problem with the English, it's the British Government we have a problem with' which was fine with me because that's how I felt too.



That'll be most people, IME. Obviously, you're going to get the occasional head the ball who would be up for a ruck. 

Plenty of English living or visiting there who are sound and welcomed. It is embarrassing when meeting some visitors who feel the need to apologize for what was done to the Irish! That's without even mentioning the past!


----------



## two sheds (Sep 20, 2021)

Yep was visiting an English lecturer who'd bought an abandoned cottage in Co. Clare (gorgeous, no utilities, middle of nowhere) and was doing it up. He had no problems at all. It was bloody tempting to move over there.


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 20, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Yep was visiting an English lecturer who'd bought an abandoned cottage in Co. Clare (gorgeous, no utilities, middle of nowhere) and was doing it up. He had no problems at all. It was bloody tempting to move over there.


Gods, yes 

West is best. If you don't mind the rain.


----------



## two sheds (Sep 20, 2021)

Galway Bay is God's own place. Had a stunning day there on some local mushies with woman I was totally in love with. Burren in the background, one of my life's highlights.


----------



## gosub (Sep 20, 2021)

bimble said:


> You've made up for it though. i just did a little search for posts with the word ireland in them by you and the results went on for Sixteen pages.


Except the rude cunt had made 0 effort to read an ingest the referendum debate as it went down on urban.


The astroturfers that came in pushing for an immigration lead Brexit didn't last two weeks here, thank fuck. 
Yet another thing the more hysterical remainers got wrong....A sizable chunck of urban posters didn't out themselves as deep cover Nazi's by their vote in 2016 painting it that way helped no one.


----------



## philosophical (Sep 20, 2021)

gosub said:


> Except the rude cunt had made 0 effort to read an ingest the referendum debate as it went down on urban.
> 
> 
> The astroturfers that came in pushing for an immigration lead Brexit didn't last two weeks here, thank fuck.
> Yet another thing the more hysterical remainers got wrong....A sizable chunck of urban posters didn't out themselves as deep cover Nazi's by their vote in 2016 painting it that way helped no one.



And in the pre referendum debate on here that I missed, was the land border on the island of Ireland discussed? Especially the practicalities and the constraints of the Belfast Agreement?


----------



## gosub (Sep 20, 2021)

philosophical said:


> And in the pre referendum debate on here that I missed, was the land border on the island of Ireland discussed? Especially the practicalities and the constraints of the Belfast Agreement?


I know I spent a fair bit of time differentiating between the EU and the Single Market , EFTA route there wouldn't have been a land border.  had an Irish wife at the time, had paid some attention to the issue.


----------



## JuanTwoThree (Sep 20, 2021)

As long as I can remember there was this odd consensus between both sides of the conflict that most people living on the big island held such strong views about the 6 counties. One side saw them as perfidious Irish-hating colonialists who wanted nothing more than to go on depriving the minority of its rights while propping up the Protestant ascendancy. The latter thought we were all fervent Unionists largely supportive of their governance; I remember a short-lived Unionist proposal to have a referendum  in GB to prove how much Britons wanted to hang on to 'Ulster'. They soon shut up about this when it dawned on the Unionists that not that many people gave a shit.

People were not in favour of the violence from anybody. Except perhaps the Army. which is complicated.


----------



## philosophical (Sep 20, 2021)

gosub said:


> I know I spent a fair bit of time differentiating between the EU and the Single Market , EFTA route there wouldn't have been a land border.  had an Irish wife at the time, had paid some attention to the issue.


Yes. I have previously written that a staying in the single market compromise would have been helpful, it was even the notion behind Theresa fucking May’s resolution that she tried to sell to the other fuckers at Chequers. That failed because the Brexit result had opened the Pandora’s box and Rees Mogg and Gove and Johnson and the like came flying out.
All that as a consequence of leave winning the referendum, which of course was itself as a consequence of all the complicit  fuckers who voted for it.


----------



## two sheds (Sep 20, 2021)

andysays said:


> Out of interest, where does the "this self" thing that you seem to use when referring to yourself where most people would just say "I" or "me" come from?
> 
> I noticed your use of it a while ago and it's something I've never come across anyone else saying...


It's the one FoTL thing that works - you can't be banned or sued for any post with 'this self' in.


----------



## Elpenor (Sep 20, 2021)

Those folk in the north of Ireland who like marching up and down roads celebrating battles no one else cares about, burning pyramids of pallets and painting their kerbs red, white and blue are frankly baffling and alien to most people I know in the rest of the UK.

I don’t want (or regard) them as part of my country but I doubt any other nation particularly covets them either.


----------



## andysays (Sep 20, 2021)

two sheds said:


> It's the one FoTL thing that works - you can't be banned or sued for any post with 'this self' in.


Looks like that's the best (only) explanation I'm going to get


----------



## two sheds (Sep 20, 2021)

no satisfying some people


----------



## andysays (Sep 20, 2021)

two sheds said:


> no satisfying some people


Sorry if I appeared ungrateful.

I was genuinely hoping to get an answer from the poster I originally asked, but I appreciate your contribution.


----------



## JimW (Sep 20, 2021)

andysays said:


> Sorry if I appeared ungrateful.
> 
> I was genuinely hoping to get an answer from the poster I originally asked, but I appreciate your contribution.


Made me think of the Gaelic influenced Irish dialect where you say (stereotypically) "It's myself" Is mise mi fhein I think it was in Scots Gaelic though I've probably mangled that and am overthinking it anyway.


----------



## two sheds (Sep 20, 2021)

It is indeed an unfamiliar pronounal construction.


----------



## andysays (Sep 20, 2021)

JimW said:


> Made me think of the Gaelic influenced Irish dialect where you say (stereotypically) "It's myself" Is mise mi fhein I think it was in Scots Gaelic though I've probably mangled that and am overthinking it anyway.


I was wondering if it was something like that that I've never come across before.

That one poster is the only person I've ever noticed using it, and that only quite recently, but looks like they're not going to respond.


----------



## Supine (Sep 20, 2021)

Government estimates for no deal are pretty much all being realised now.


----------



## Supine (Sep 20, 2021)

It was always going to happen. Young people losing the ability to work abroad for a bit. Seeing the uk lose these opportunities is a real shame. 









						Young Brits upset at losing out on chance to work for TUI abroad
					

The comment section was awash with people sharing their disappointment about how Brexit has changed rights to work abroad




					www.mylondon.news


----------



## bimble (Sep 20, 2021)

Cue 'only posh twats ever go abroad for a job' posts. Worth remembering i think that nobody born this century voted for brexit.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 20, 2021)

bimble said:


> Cue 'only posh twats ever go abroad for a job' posts. Worth remembering i think that nobody born this century voted for brexit.




Well obviously being that you had to be 18 to vote in the 2016 referendum which would be something of an obstacle I'm sure you'll agree


----------



## bimble (Sep 20, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Well obviously being that you had to be 18 to vote in the 2016 referendum which would be something of an obstacle I'm sure you'll agree


Yes.


----------



## Raheem (Sep 20, 2021)

bimble said:


> Cue 'only posh twats ever go abroad for a job' posts. Worth remembering i think that nobody born this century voted for brexit.


Only posh twats ever go abroad for a job _anymore_.


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 20, 2021)

If only Remain could have got these young voters out to vote it might have been so different.


----------



## Yossarian (Sep 20, 2021)

The estimated 64% of 18 to 24-year-old who voted in 2016 was a good turnout, but sadly no match for the 90% of over-65s.


----------



## bimble (Sep 20, 2021)

If I ran the world nobody over 65 would get to vote anyway, so we’d have remoaned.


----------



## Supine (Sep 20, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> If only Remain could have got these young voters out to vote it might have been so different.



No empathy. Denial. Deflection. Classic signs of acute brexiteerism. 

Ps they were not eligible to vote


----------



## gosub (Sep 20, 2021)

bimble said:


> Cue 'only posh twats ever go abroad for a job' posts. Worth remembering i think that nobody born this century voted for brexit.


Yep it's true . But at the rime no one below retirement had ever been asked.


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 20, 2021)

Supine said:


> No empathy. Denial. Deflection. Classic signs of acute brexiteerism.
> 
> Ps they were not eligible to vote


I take it you’re not big on irony .


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 20, 2021)

bimble said:


> If I ran the world nobody over 65 would get to vote anyway, so we’d have remoaned.


Absolutely. If you can’t get the right result just change the rules for voting . It’s only universal suffrage which was fought for for centuries by the working classes but in the bigger sphere of things  and with hindsight it was a mistake.


----------



## bimble (Sep 20, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Absolutely. If you can’t get the right result just change the rules for voting . It’s only universal suffrage which was fought for for centuries by the working classes but in the bigger sphere of things  and with hindsight it was a mistake.


Nah, the old shouldn’t get to vote to decide the future, they’re done, give the vote to children instead.


----------



## gosub (Sep 20, 2021)

bimble said:


> If I ran the world nobody over 65 would get to vote anyway, so we’d have remoaned.


You know where you can stick Logans run


----------



## Yossarian (Sep 20, 2021)

Hard to see the "Let's Ban Old People From Voting Party" gaining much traction at the ballot box, tbh.


----------



## two sheds (Sep 20, 2021)

bimble said:


> Nah, the old shouldn’t get to vote to decide the future, they’re done, give the vote to children instead.


Disgusting - the old have all the wisdom and knowle......

ah yeh see your point


----------



## Yossarian (Sep 20, 2021)

Tories would probably respond with a bill allowing people to change their wills to include their vote in the next three elections after they're dead.

"Why should we allow death to rob us of the wisdom of these elders, when they could help guide us into the future?"


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 20, 2021)

bimble said:


> Nah, the old shouldn’t get to vote to decide the future, they’re done, give the vote to children instead.


So children see how shallow British democracy is


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 20, 2021)

What would have happened if children had been in charge of Brexit?


----------



## Yossarian (Sep 20, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> What would have happened if children had been in charge of Brexit?


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 20, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> What would have happened if children had been in charge of Brexit?


----------



## gosub (Sep 20, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> So children see how shallow British democracy is


Clearly not shallow enough for his liking


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Sep 20, 2021)

Not sure why bimble’s idea is so poorly received, would stop Sasaferrato from sticking his cross next to the Tory cunts…


----------



## fishfinger (Sep 20, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Not sure why bimble’s idea is so poorly received, would stop Sasaferrato from sticking his cross next to the Tory cunts…


I wouldn't want to be deprived of my chance to draw a spunking cock on the ballot!


----------



## ruffneck23 (Sep 20, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


>



ah the whole film...  i think , it may not have aged well, we shall see...


----------



## Raheem (Sep 21, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> What would have happened if children had been in charge of Brexit?


Turn on the news.


----------



## TopCat (Sep 21, 2021)

Maggots and mayhem: behind the scenes of Britain’s big bin crisis
					

Thanks to the HGV driver shortage, many refuse collectors are quitting to earn up to £30,000 more driving lorries. But what does this mean for our streets, as the rubbish and recycling piles ever higher?




					www.theguardian.com
				




I’m really glad to see wages going up. The guardian is less so.


----------



## Badgers (Sep 21, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Maggots and mayhem: behind the scenes of Britain’s big bin crisis
> 
> 
> Thanks to the HGV driver shortage, many refuse collectors are quitting to earn up to £30,000 more driving lorries. But what does this mean for our streets, as the rubbish and recycling piles ever higher?
> ...


Should be all sorted in a couple of months then?


----------



## bimble (Sep 21, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Maggots and mayhem: behind the scenes of Britain’s big bin crisis
> 
> 
> Thanks to the HGV driver shortage, many refuse collectors are quitting to earn up to £30,000 more driving lorries. But what does this mean for our streets, as the rubbish and recycling piles ever higher?
> ...



That’s what you got from that article? Impressive. If councils could pay the same rates as Waitrose can, in order to keep their drivers, that would be great but even if they could there’d still be not enough qualified people in the country right now to do all the lorry driving jobs would there.


----------



## Badgers (Sep 21, 2021)

bimble said:


> That’s what you got from that article? Impressive. If councils could pay the same rates as Waitrose can, in order to keep their drivers, that would be great but even if they could there’d still be not enough qualified people in the country right now to do all the lorry driving jobs would there.


With the #ToryScum cuts to councils there is no chance


----------



## bimble (Sep 21, 2021)

Badgers said:


> With the #ToryScum cuts to councils there is no chance


It did say how some councils who handle the bins themselves have absolutely no chance but others who have contracts with massive outsourcing companies to do the bins they just have no power to force the companies like serco to offer the kind of money to drivers that waitrose can. Still bottom line is more driving jobs than there are people to do them.


----------



## gosub (Sep 21, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> Hard to see the "Let's Ban Old People From Voting Party" gaining much traction at the ballot box, tbh.



Been doing palative care for my folks for while now  (down to one as of a fortnight ago). I assure you this already isn't a country you would want to grow old in


----------



## TopCat (Sep 21, 2021)

bimble said:


> That’s what you got from that article? Impressive. If councils could pay the same rates as Waitrose can, in order to keep their drivers, that would be great but even if they could there’d still be not enough qualified people in the country right now to do all the lorry driving jobs would there.


The councils used to provide a lifelong job on the dust complete with a good pension. The councils on the whole abandoned that model, outsourcing to the like of Veolia and switching to fortnightly bin collections meaning the job is so much worse. 
The rats are coming home to roost.


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 21, 2021)

TopCat said:


> The councils used to provide a lifelong job on the dust complete with a good pension. The councils on the whole abandoned that model, outsourcing to the like of Veolia and switching to fortnightly bin collections meaning the job is so much worse.
> The rats are coming home to roost.


Or as the Guardian once put it  "Once a dirty word in the Labour ranks, outsourcing has become more acceptable, as long as it doesn't drive down wages of already low paid workers or reduce the quality of services, writes Patrick Butler"





__





						A history of outsourcing |  Society | SocietyGuardian.co.uk
					






					www.theguardian.com


----------



## bimble (Sep 21, 2021)

It’s like brexit in some peoples heads is some cloaked avenger busily swooping about revealing all the sins of capitalism and then (underpants) having been revealed it’ll get better.


----------



## Badgers (Sep 21, 2021)

Pesky EU rules holding back our sovereigntee


----------



## Badgers (Sep 21, 2021)

Any Brexit voters/supporters care to defend this?


----------



## ska invita (Sep 21, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Any Brexit voters/supporters care to defend this?


Whats the brexit connection? Pretty sure this has been happening for years


----------



## bimble (Sep 21, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Whats the brexit connection? Pretty sure this has been happening for years


This is the connection








						Polluters told to dump risky sewage into rivers as Brexit disrupts water treatment
					

Polluters told they can dump risky sewage into rivers due to Brexit




					www.independent.co.uk
				












						Sewage discharge rules eased over fears of chemical shortage
					

Wastewater plants in England offered waiver because of impact of lorry driver crisis




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## gosub (Sep 21, 2021)

bimble said:


> This is the connection
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well, at least it isn't 'creative' thinking from the  Home Secretary on what to do about the channel inflatables


----------



## mojo pixy (Sep 21, 2021)

They've (we've) been putting sewage in the sea for ever in some places. The 'new' story is it can go in rivers too. But farmers have been polluting rivers for ever, too, so I for one am not as pissed off as I think that article wants me to be. Not freshly pissed off anyway. This is more of the same err shit.


----------



## Badgers (Sep 21, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Whats the brexit connection? Pretty sure this has been happening for years


Really?????


----------



## gosub (Sep 21, 2021)

mojo pixy said:


> They've (we've) been putting sewage in the sea for ever in some places. The 'new' story is it can go in rivers too. But farmers have been polluting rivers for ever, too, so I for one am not as pissed off as I think that article wants me to be. Not freshly pissed off anyway. This is more of the same err shit.


Yeah but we were the dirty man of EUrope b4 we joined, and there was significant improvement in water quality which was largely down to EUropean regulation...but same regulation lead to things like destroying fish if they end beached by receding river flooding, and speaking of flooding treating river silt as trade waste lead to less dredging which lead to more flooding.


----------



## gosub (Sep 21, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Really?????


Usually used to be down to heavy rain overwhelming systems iirc


----------



## bimble (Sep 21, 2021)

mojo pixy said:


> They've (we've) been putting sewage in the sea for ever in some places. The 'new' story is it can go in rivers too. But farmers have been polluting rivers for ever, too, so I for one am not as pissed off as I think that article wants me to be. Not freshly pissed off anyway. This is more of the same err shit.


it looks pretty simple, in that before this 'unavoidable shortage' you needed to comply with the terms of your permit else you'd be breaking the law and now you do not need to comply with the terms of your permit. Maybe the same shit but its now legal. 









						[Withdrawn] Water and sewerage company effluent discharges: supply chain failure RPS B2
					






					www.gov.uk


----------



## ska invita (Sep 21, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Really?????


absolutely - always worth checking sewage reports before going to the seaside...especially around north kent IME

UKs surfers against sewage have been going for decades now flagging this up


----------



## Poot (Sep 21, 2021)

The 2006 EU Bathing Waters directive was very stringent. 

Bathing water quality  - Environment - European Commission

Be interesting to see whether anyone holds the water companies to account in the future but I think we know that they won't. Frothy beaches to return?


----------



## Supine (Sep 21, 2021)

Poot said:


> Frothy beaches to return?



Picture from kent this morning


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Sep 21, 2021)

Poot said:


> Be interesting to see whether anyone holds the water companies to account in the future but I think we know that they won't. Frothy beaches to return?



Everyone hates the water companies and lots more people are having UK holidays now, so there is potential.


----------



## Poot (Sep 21, 2021)

Supine said:


> Picture from kent this morning
> 
> View attachment 289594


That was quick.


----------



## Poot (Sep 21, 2021)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Everyone hates the water companies and lots more people are having UK holidays now, so there is potential.


But there is a lot of mutual back-scratching and no one wants to upset the shareholders. This stuff really shouldn't be up to Surfers against Sewage.


----------



## Supine (Sep 21, 2021)

Poot said:


> That was quick.



I was working near one of the water outflows. Very shitty, thanks brexiteers.


----------



## TopCat (Sep 21, 2021)

bimble said:


> It’s like brexit in some peoples heads is some cloaked avenger busily swooping about revealing all the sins of capitalism and then (underpants) having been revealed it’ll get better.


PeakBimble


----------



## TopCat (Sep 21, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Any Brexit voters/supporters care to defend this?


It’s the legacy of 80’s privatisation and payment of dividends rather than invest in processing Infrastrucure.


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 21, 2021)

TopCat said:


> PeakBimble


The political wing of the Tufty Club


----------



## mojo pixy (Sep 21, 2021)

bimble said:


> Maybe the same shit but its now legal.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It was legal before IF you bought a permit. It's still only legal IF you have a permit, can prove you've done all you can to source the chemicals you need, have a written agreement from the local water authority, and can meet quite a lot of other conditions. And it's because of covid too, natch.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Sep 21, 2021)

Poot said:


> But there is a lot of mutual back-scratching and no one wants to upset the shareholders. This stuff really shouldn't be up to Surfers against Sewage.



I think a lot of people want to upset the shareholders. I certainly do and I think you do as well?


----------



## brogdale (Sep 21, 2021)

TopCat said:


> It’s the legacy of 80’s privatisation and payment of dividends rather than invest in processing Infrastrucure.


Hard to believe that some folk thought things would be different without the supra state.


----------



## xenon (Sep 21, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> The political wing of the Tufty Club


She has a point. There is definitely a current of people saying oh well this is just capitalism nothing to do with Brexit. Funny, this stuff wasn’t happening a couple of years ago.
 It is possible you know to  say, this is a complete shit show, whilst acknowledging perfectly valid reasons for voting Brexit.

That is the fault of the deal, long-standing problems everything. But here we are. Pretending Brexit is irrelevant,  and what is currently flowing from that is, well frankly a bit mad however.


----------



## TopCat (Sep 21, 2021)

xenon said:


> She has a point. There is definitely a current of people saying oh well this is just capitalism nothing to do with Brexit. Funny, this stuff wasn’t happening a couple of years ago.
> It is possible you know to  say, this is a complete shit show, whilst acknowledging perfectly valid reasons for voting Brexit.
> 
> That is the fault of the deal, long-standing problems everything. But here we are. Pretending Brexit is irrelevant,  and what is currently flowing from that is, well frankly a bit mad.


Overflow shit has never stopped since Bazelgette. It's not Brexit shit.


----------



## Raheem (Sep 21, 2021)

mojo pixy said:


> It was legal before IF you bought a permit. It's still only legal IF you have a permit, can prove you've done all you can to source the chemicals you need, have a written agreement from the local water authority, and can meet quite a lot of other conditions. And it's because of covid too, natch.


Are you trying to say that what's been described in the media as a removal of restrictions is actually the introduction of a range of new restrictions making it a lot more onerous to pollute?


----------



## xenon (Sep 21, 2021)

bollocks, frankly.


----------



## xenon (Sep 21, 2021)

You think all these shortages are just happening because of Covid? Come on it’s not credible.


----------



## xenon (Sep 21, 2021)

Can probably dig up an article from five years ago to show that there was shortages of water treatment chemicals in Swansea or something. That will prove it all.


----------



## TopCat (Sep 21, 2021)

xenon said:


> bollocks, frankly.


You say this want happening two years ago. It was. Overflow sewage due to underinvestment is decades old.


----------



## xenon (Sep 21, 2021)

Anyway, it didn’t have to be this way. I’m not blaming Brexit voters. As always it is the cunts in charge. We could’ve stayed in the customs union or at least sorted a lot of this out. Were it not for this filth in government. well people that voted for them, yes I do blame them. to borrow badgers phrase, #Toryscum.


----------



## TopCat (Sep 21, 2021)

xenon said:


> Anyway, it didn’t have to be this way. I’m not blaming Brexit voters. As always it is the cunts in charge. We could’ve stayed in the customs union or at least sorted a lot of this out. Were it not for this filth in government. well people that voted for them, yes I do blame them. to borrow badgers phrase, #Toryscum.


Just address your sewage outfall above.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Sep 21, 2021)

gosub said:


> Yeah but we were the dirty man of EUrope b4 we joined, and there was significant improvement in water quality which was largely down to EUropean regulation...but same regulation lead to things like destroying fish if they end beached by receding river flooding, and speaking of flooding treating river silt as trade waste lead to less dredging which lead to more flooding.




Nah the dredging fucks rivers right up, it’s building on flood plains and denuding upper rivers coupled with our increasingly fucked climate that’s led to more flooding


----------



## gosub (Sep 21, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Nah the dredging fucks rivers right up, it’s building on flood plains and denuding upper rivers coupled with our increasingly fucked climate that’s led to more flooding


That too but Somerset a couple of years back that was down to not dredging , and not not dredging was down to cost of disposal of river silt


----------



## xenon (Sep 21, 2021)

Just address your sewage outfall above.
keep the denying the obvious if you like but I’m not joining in.


----------



## bimble (Sep 22, 2021)

TopCat said:


> It's not Brexit shit.


This is great cos you’re not just defending the governments move you’re denying that, in their own words, on their own website, they say you can let the sewage flow now if you can’t get the chemicals due to “our new relationship with the EU”.


----------



## Badgers (Sep 22, 2021)

Sunlit Uplands ahoy 









						Joe Biden plays down chances of UK-US trade deal
					

The US president's comments come as he meets Boris Johnson for talks in the White House.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 22, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Sunlit Uplands ahoy
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Every cloud...

 Biden also issued a fresh warning to the UK that peace in Northern Ireland must not be jeopardised as a result of complications caused by Brexit.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Sep 22, 2021)

fishfinger said:


> I wouldn't want to be deprived of my chance to draw a spunking cock on the ballot!


I just hope your spunking cocks aren't drawn on the voting part of the ballot sheet.

Apparently, a mark in a voting part counts as a vote. I believe it works from the top of the ballot sheet - down.

Or so they said at uni on the Politics and Governance course I took a few years ago.


----------



## fishfinger (Sep 22, 2021)

Count Cuckula said:


> I just hope your spunking cocks aren't drawn on the voting part of the ballot sheet.
> 
> Apparently, a mark in a voting part counts as a vote. I believe it works from the top of the ballot sheet - down.
> 
> Or so they said at uni on the Politics and Governance course I took a few years ago.


I put a continuous line through all the squares and write "NONE" on the ballot. If that doesn't spoil it then nothing will.


----------



## bimble (Sep 22, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Sunlit Uplands ahoy
> 
> 
> 
> ...


All that time Johnson spent as foreign secretary kissing donald trump's arse and promising sky pie, what a shame.


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 22, 2021)

His career must be all but over now.


----------



## Badgers (Sep 22, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> His career must be all but over now.


Did it ever start?


----------



## MrSki (Sep 22, 2021)

If they make it into a film.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Sep 22, 2021)

fishfinger said:


> I put a continuous line through all the squares and write "NONE" on the ballot. If that doesn't spoil it then nothing will.


In that case you voted for the party at the top of the list on the ballot sheet

If those on my Politics and Governance course were correct that is


----------



## Badgers (Sep 22, 2021)

Special relationship


----------



## fishfinger (Sep 22, 2021)

Count Cuckula said:


> In that case you voted for the party at the top of the list on the ballot sheet
> 
> If those on my Politics and Governance course were correct that is


Then it's a good job that my vote doesn't matter.


----------



## mojo pixy (Sep 22, 2021)

Raheem said:


> Are you trying to say that what's been described in the media as a removal of restrictions is actually the introduction of a range of new restrictions making it a lot more onerous to pollute?



It wouldn't be the first time X was described as Y in The Media, now would it. There are reasons things get 'described in the media' the way they do and we all know the media is neither some benign, impartial info dump, nor a popular movement heroically telling truth to power.

Meanwhile if you read the page posted you can see that failing to comply with the licence, in this context, has a load of conditions attached that make it (to my view) barely less onerous than keeping to the terms of the license. And for what it's worth, without brexit but with covid, this would probably still happen.


----------



## Yossarian (Sep 22, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Special relationship




"We let you be part of that Australia submarines thing, fella. Don't get greedy."


----------



## Poot (Sep 22, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Overflow shit has never stopped since Bazelgette. It's not Brexit shit.


If you don't like the EU then fine, you can view it as 'but the trains always ran on time.' However, like it or not, the 2006 Bathing Waters directive which was implemented over the subsequent 11 or 12 years made a massive difference to water quality. Doesn't alter the fact that the water companies should be nationalised, mind you.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 22, 2021)

mojo pixy said:


> It wouldn't be the first time X was described as Y in The Media, now would it. There are reasons things get 'described in the media' the way they do and we all know the media is neither some benign, impartial info dump, nor a popular movement heroically telling truth to power.
> 
> Meanwhile if you read the page posted you can see that failing to comply with the licence, in this context, has a load of conditions attached that make it (to my view) barely less onerous than keeping to the terms of the license. And for what it's worth, without brexit but with covid, this would probably still happen.


The corporations continue to dump sewage and take the occasional fines because that presents lower costs that rectifying the decades long deficiency in infrastructure necessary to prevent the dumping.

When viewed from the perspective of financialised capital the negative environmental externalities make complete sense if dividends can be maintained.


----------



## Sprocket. (Sep 22, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Sunlit Uplands ahoy
> 
> 
> 
> ...


🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
For gullible, see Johnson and crew the gullible puddings!


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 22, 2021)

I take it chlorinated chicken is off the menu then?


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 22, 2021)

Jesus


----------



## Badgers (Sep 22, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Jesus



Yeah 😭🙄

I retweeted that and am getting a pile on if hate for disgraced Prime Minister de Pfeffel Johnson.


----------



## Badgers (Sep 22, 2021)

US President Joe Biden does not 'fully appreciate' details of Northern Ireland Protocol row, minister says
					

"He is probably at the moment just reading the headlines, reading what the EU is saying, reading what Ireland might be saying," Environment Secretary George Eustice tells Kay Burley.




					news-sky-com.cdn.ampproject.org


----------



## Sprocket. (Sep 22, 2021)

Yet another Useless Eustace!


----------



## two sheds (Sep 22, 2021)

That Sky News story didn't quote properly for me but ....


> Mr Eustice said it was "legitimate for him to have a view on it and express that view" and added: "We will obviously explain to the United States effectively it is tantamount to saying that potatoes grown in one part of the United States can't be sold in another part of the United States.



Potatoes


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Sep 22, 2021)

Count Cuckula said:


> I just hope your spunking cocks aren't drawn on the voting part of the ballot sheet.
> 
> Apparently, a mark in a voting part counts as a vote. I believe it works from the top of the ballot sheet - down.
> 
> Or so they said at uni on the Politics and Governance course I took a few years ago.



I thought it was that if the drawing of a cock (or any other mark that's not a X) is wholly within one box where you're supposed to put an X, then it counts as a vote for that candidate.

I would not want to draw a cock on the ballot paper here, as it might get counted as a vote for john redwood...


----------



## bimble (Sep 22, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Any Brexit voters/supporters care to defend this?


Turns out the answer was absolutely yes


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Sep 22, 2021)

Puddy_Tat said:


> I thought it was that if the drawing of a cock (or any other mark that's not a X) is wholly within one box where you're supposed to put an X, then it counts as a vote for that candidate.


You might be right but I thought it was any mark


----------



## Raheem (Sep 22, 2021)

Best thing to do is put the balls in one box, the cock in the box above and the ejaculate in the box above that.


----------



## Supine (Sep 22, 2021)

Turns out we can’t even pretend to blow up Parliament this year 









						Bonfire Night fireworks ‘70% down’ due to Brexit and supply chain crisis
					

Suppliers said to be unwilling to stock up because of confusion over safety labelling and extra paperwork




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Sep 22, 2021)

Supine said:


> Turns out we can’t even pretend to blow up Parliament this year
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Good, animals fucking hate it, Diwali too.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 22, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Good, animals fucking hate it, Diwali too.


Yappy, noisy little cunt down the road barks very fucking night, so I can't loose of a few rockets on 1 night a year because I might upset poor little yappy, noisy cunt down the road?

Worst defence of Brexit, yet.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Sep 22, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Yappy, noisy little cunt down the road barks very fucking night, so I can't loose of a few rockets on 1 night a year because I might upset poor little yappy, noisy cunt down the road?
> 
> Worst defence of Brexit, yet.



Wish it was one night, at least a third of the winter is spent with at least a few fireworks going off at random


----------



## xenon (Sep 22, 2021)

That’s Diwali too. Quite like a firework myself.


----------



## bimble (Sep 22, 2021)

This is how your brain works when you’ve turned into a brexit maniac, unwilling to see a single flaw in any of the actual brexit we are all enjoying. I did a helpful diagram.  Can you imagine how much Johnson and co love you for your unwavering willingness to do this work for them.


----------



## not a trot (Sep 22, 2021)

Supine said:


> Turns out we can’t even pretend to blow up Parliament this year
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Well that will please my dog.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Sep 22, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Yappy, noisy little cunt down the road barks very fucking night, so I can't loose of a few rockets on 1 night a year because I might upset poor little yappy, noisy cunt down the road?
> 
> Worst defence of Brexit, yet.



You responding to a distressed animal by wishing to make it even more distressed is fairly nasty.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Sep 22, 2021)

Supine said:


> Turns out we can’t even pretend to blow up Parliament this year
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Good. I fucking hate fireworks.


----------



## Elpenor (Sep 22, 2021)

I hate fireworks too, and was born on blowing up parliament day, so had to endure going to displays as a kid.


----------



## Sprocket. (Sep 22, 2021)

Count Cuckula said:


> Good. I fucking hate fireworks.


Blame China. It’s the in thing.


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 22, 2021)

Dogs are benefiting from Brexit. This is a real bonus.


----------



## TopCat (Sep 23, 2021)

I’m confident Lidl will have their usual affordable selection of huge fireworks.


----------



## TopCat (Sep 23, 2021)

I probably will give them a miss this year though. I’m trying hard to get on with the neighbours.


----------



## bimble (Sep 23, 2021)

So this is happening, as predicted - brexit means less British food more imports.

"British fruit and vegetable growers are cutting planting in 2022 after an unprecedented labor shortage led to widespread waste of produce and hundreds of tonnes of crops, from broccoli to raspberries, rotted in the fields. . Currently, producers are planning to reduce yields next year and expect the rest to be supplemented by imports."

"Some growers have pulled out of strawberries completely. Kent has raspberry growers who have uprooted their crops and no longer plant them..' 
etc









						Britain’s fruit and veg farmers cut 2022 planting after widespread waste
					

British fruit and vegetable growers are cutting planting in 2022 after an unprecedented labor shortage led to widespread waste of produce and hundreds of tonnes of crops, from broccoli to…




					www.freshplaza.com


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 23, 2021)

Probably nothing to do with Brexit


----------



## brogdale (Sep 23, 2021)

We can't be far away from _Brexit means nothing to do with Brexit?_


----------



## Badgers (Sep 23, 2021)

BP closes some sites due to lorry driver shortage - BBC News
					

The oil firm said only "a handful" of sites are affected by the fuel supply issues.




					f7td5.app.goo.gl


----------



## mojo pixy (Sep 23, 2021)

bimble said:


> So this is happening, as predicted - brexit means less British food more imports.
> 
> "British fruit and vegetable growers are cutting planting in 2022 after an unprecedented labor shortage led to widespread waste of produce and hundreds of tonnes of crops, from broccoli to raspberries, rotted in the fields. . Currently, producers are planning to reduce yields next year and expect the rest to be supplemented by imports."
> 
> ...


So instead of adapting the business model, it's toys out of the pram. Fuck food for the community, it's me n my profits. Kulak wankers. Bury them under their own fields.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 23, 2021)

mojo pixy said:


> So instead of adapting the business model, it's toys out of the pram. Fuck food for the community, it's me n my profits. Kulak wankers. Bury them under their own fields.


Let them feed penguins


----------



## bimble (Sep 23, 2021)

i enjoyed this set of numbers. Only a quarter of the people who voted leave and / or voted tory at the last election (these are largely the same people remember) think that the food shortages are caused by brexit. 
They're also a lot less likely to think that food shortages are happening at all.


----------



## bimble (Sep 23, 2021)

mojo pixy said:


> So instead of adapting the business model, it's toys out of the pram. Fuck food for the community, it's me n my profits. Kulak wankers. Bury them under their own fields.


Yes they probably decided to let the veg rot this year because profits .


----------



## TopCat (Sep 23, 2021)

bimble said:


> Yes they probably decided to let the veg rot this year because profits .


They could have opened their fields to locals to help themselves. But no. Trash the crop and keep prices high. I would prosecute the growers myself for wilful destruction of food whilst people go hungry. Five years on water porridge.


----------



## bimble (Sep 23, 2021)

TopCat said:


> They could have opened their fields to locals to help themselves. But no. Trash the crop and keep prices high. I would prosecute the growers myself for wilful destruction of food whilst people go hungry. Five years on water porridge.


that happened quite a lot, i saw a few of those help yourself stories, but there's a limit to what you can do with fifty thousand cougettes as anyone with an allotment knows.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 23, 2021)

bimble said:


> that happened quite a lot, i saw a few of those help yourself stories, but there's a limit to what you can do with fifty thousand cougettes as anyone with an allotment knows.


Sounds like you know as much about allotments as I do about the riverine parasites of paraguay


----------



## andysays (Sep 23, 2021)

TopCat said:


> They could have opened their fields to locals to help themselves. But no. Trash the crop and keep prices high. I would prosecute the growers myself for wilful destruction of food whilst people go hungry. Five years on water porridge.


I know this will be dismissed as crazy by some, but they could even have done something in the five years they've had since the referendum to reduce their dependency on cheap labour from poorer EU countries, instead of carrying blindly on, creating a crisis and expecting to be bailed out at the last minute.


----------



## bimble (Sep 23, 2021)

I’m fine with Blame the Farmers, but am sad about the bigger picture, which is less British food more imports as a result of brexit.


----------



## two sheds (Sep 23, 2021)

Government most to blame, they're supposed to be planning this whole episode

haha


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Sep 23, 2021)

bimble said:


> I’m fine with Blame the Farmers, but am sad about the bigger picture, which is less British food more imports as a result of brexit.



British food for British people, yeah? Time to take a more outward looking approach, Europe is on our doorstep and we should embrace it and its produce.


----------



## TopCat (Sep 23, 2021)

Has anyone witnessed any actual food shortages?


----------



## Chilli.s (Sep 23, 2021)

It's more choice shortages than food shortages so far. I predict food costs rising steeply though.

Let them eat cake


----------



## bimble (Sep 23, 2021)




----------



## Yossarian (Sep 23, 2021)

Is there a comparable country where seasonal agricultural work is all done by locals?

The approach of other relatively wealthy nations seems to be

A) bring in seasonal workers from elsewhere (US, Australia, Canada, Germany, France, Sweden, Switzerland, etc.)
B) import all the food (Hong Kong, Singapore)
C) grudgingly bring in some foreign workers but try to have as much as possible done by robots (Japan)

C might be the most appealing option for the Tories - this will all have been worth it if we get to see Boris Johnson disembowelled by a rogue strawberry-picking robot next time he's cosplaying on a farm.


----------



## Badgers (Sep 23, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Has anyone witnessed any actual food shortages?


Yes


----------



## bimble (Sep 23, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> Is there a comparable country where seasonal agricultural work is all done by locals?
> 
> The approach of other relatively wealthy nations seems to be
> 
> ...


B has already been mooted as a good idea by that man who advises the chancellor. I’m sure the answer to your question is no, there’s no ‘rich country’ that picks their own veg.


----------



## TopCat (Sep 23, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Yes


What did you witness and when?


----------



## TopCat (Sep 23, 2021)

Chilli.s said:


> It's more choice shortages than food shortages so far. I predict food costs rising steeply though.
> 
> Let them eat cake


I have seen none thus far. Choice or product shortages. Just wondering about first hand reports rather than shit photo shop empty shelf memes.


----------



## Badgers (Sep 23, 2021)

TopCat said:


> What did you witness and when?


Food shortages 
Recently


----------



## bimble (Sep 23, 2021)

TopCat said:


> I have seen none thus far. Choice or product shortages. Just wondering about first hand reports rather than shit photo shop empty shelf memes.


Lucky you. Only 1 in ten people now say they’ve not noticed it at all.


----------



## TopCat (Sep 23, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Food shortages
> Recently


Come on Badgers. A bit of detail. What was not available and where/when? Did you find IT elsewhere?


----------



## TopCat (Sep 23, 2021)

bimble said:


> Lucky you. Only 1 in ten people now say they’re not noticed it at all.


What have you noticed? Where and when?


----------



## bimble (Sep 23, 2021)

TopCat said:


> What have you noticed? Where and when?


I’ve been moaning about it since sometime in July. It’s been constant here, nobody is starving just always a bit exciting when you go to the supermarket to see what on your list will be available & what won’t. every time for months.


----------



## TopCat (Sep 23, 2021)

bimble said:


> I’ve been moaning about it since sometime in July. It’s been constant here, nobody is starving just always a bit exciting when you go to the supermarket to see what on your list will be available & what won’t. Every time for months.


Fuck me this is like pulling teeth. I read the posts and don’t recollect many first hand accounts of shortages. 

What did you find unavailable last week and where? Did you get the items elsewhere? Be specific please.


----------



## bimble (Sep 23, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Fuck me this is like pulling teeth. I read the posts and don’t recollect many first hand accounts of shortages.
> 
> What did you find unavailable last week and where? Did you get the items elsewhere? Be specific please.


Why? Do you think I’m pretending or something? I think last time it was just frozen stuff that was not there, and salad. The time before there was absolutely no milk in the big tescos apart from fucking hippie vegan stuff, that was scary but very unusual. Frozen stuff has been low in stock all the time. If you want to believe that 9/10 people are pretending to have experienced issues carry on !


----------



## Chilli.s (Sep 23, 2021)

TopCat said:


> What have you noticed? Where and when?


Went to a Morrisons a few weeks ago and they had no new potatoes, just none... a few days later, all fine. Hardly a food shortage but a bit weird to have no stock of an in season food staple. And the Coop yesterday had loads of empty space in the chiller cabs, so only about 30% of the stock that they would normally have carried in that type of product


----------



## bimble (Sep 23, 2021)

TopCat said:


> first hand reports rather than shit photo shop empty shelf memes


Here’s a meme for you.


ska invita said:


> I wanted to go to the coop but they haven't been getting much deliveries lately so went to they bigger Waitrose instead... The fruit and veg section :
> 
> View attachment 289462
> 
> ...


----------



## Badgers (Sep 23, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Fuck me this is like pulling teeth. I read the posts and don’t recollect many first hand accounts of shortages.
> 
> What did you find unavailable last week and where? Did you get the items elsewhere? Be specific please.


I just went to a coop in Luton. Virtually no (raw) meat on the shelves. Zero chicken.


----------



## bimble (Sep 23, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Zero chicken.


Bloody kulak farmers again, they’re hoarding chickens.


----------



## Supine (Sep 23, 2021)

Some of us are still in the denial stage of a crisis i see!


----------



## bimble (Sep 23, 2021)

Supine said:


> Some of us are still in the denial stage of a crisis i see!


Not many of them left but it is impressive when you see one up close like this. At the beginning it was normal for true believers to say it was remoaners lying & doing photoshop but at this point it’s quite special.


----------



## andysays (Sep 23, 2021)

bimble said:


> I’m fine with Blame the Farmers, but am sad about the bigger picture, which is less British food more imports as a result of brexit.


Maybe my previous post could have been clearer.

I'm not seeking to blame individual farmers, at least not primarily. The main blame lies with the farming industry and the major distributors like the supermarkets for allowing this situation to develop in the pursuit of short term profit, and the government for encouraging them.

And the end result may turn out to be less British food more imports, but it's not an inevitability, even now.


----------



## bimble (Sep 23, 2021)

andysays said:


> Maybe my previous post could have been clearer.
> 
> I'm not seeking to blame individual farmers, at least not primarily. The main blame lies with the farming industry and the major distributors like the supermarkets for allowing this situation to develop in the pursuit of short term profit, and the government for encouraging them.
> 
> And the end result may turn out to be less British food more imports, but it's not an inevitability, even now.


What do you reckon of this, Yossarian ’s question?
Do you agree that there are no ‘rich countries’ who pick their own veg but still maintain that None of the above is an actual possibility ?



Yossarian said:


> Is there a comparable country where seasonal agricultural work is all done by locals?
> 
> The approach of other relatively wealthy nations seems to be
> 
> ...


----------



## ElizabethofYork (Sep 23, 2021)

TopCat said:


> What have you noticed? Where and when?


I've just been to our usually well-stocked co-op for a few bits.  They had no
tomatoes
lettuce
yoghurt
ham

And that's just the things I was looking for.  Not sure about other stuff.

This is quite unusual.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 23, 2021)

Anyone been out for a panic tank-fill yet?


----------



## andysays (Sep 23, 2021)

bimble said:


> What do you reckon of this, Yossarian ’s question?
> Do you agree that there are no ‘rich countries’ who pick their own veg but still maintain that None of the above is an actual possibility ?


I read Yossarian 's post with interest.

I don't know the answer to that question, and I'd be interested to see a bit more data beyond the very basic.

But part of what I'm trying to argue is that it is at least possible to imagine a different model for eg the food industry, and that possibility isn't negated by the fact that that model isn't currently practiced anywhere among the countries listed.


----------



## bimble (Sep 23, 2021)

andysays said:


> I read Yossarian 's post with interest.
> 
> I don't know the answer to that question, and I'd be interested to see a bit more data beyond the very basic.
> 
> But part of what I'm trying to argue is that it is at least possible to imagine a different model for eg the food industry, and that possibility isn't negated by the fact that that model isn't currently practiced anywhere among the countries listed.


Oh, yes. It is totally possible to imagine a better world. Good thing to do too. In small local ways it’s happening, communal gardens my local veg place etc.


----------



## andysays (Sep 23, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Anyone been out for a panic tank-fill yet?


I had to go to fill up a load of jerry cans with petrol for work this morning.

No panic buying or shortages to report at BP in Stoke Newington.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 23, 2021)

Today I walked around a Lincolnshire Aldi searching for food shortages scurrying around the shop. To my chagrin I found none. Yesterday I looked for empty shelves in a Morrison's but enjoyed an equal amount of success.


----------



## andysays (Sep 23, 2021)

bimble said:


> Oh, yes. It is totally possible to imagine a better world.


It's a struggle sometimes but we can still try, as a family of four huddle around the last tin of beans as it slowly warms on the last remaining candle...


----------



## spitfire (Sep 23, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Anyone been out for a panic tank-fill yet?



Not a panic one but this morning at 10.30 I saw the Premium unleaded was OOS (Shell Bethnal Green), thought about the truck drivers and all the other stuff and filled up_ just in case_. Saw the headlines later and felt simultaneously smug and embarrassed.

I do have a tank full of petrol now though so there is that.

eta: oh fuck I've wandered on to the Brexit thread by mistake.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 23, 2021)

bimble said:


> I’ve been moaning about it since sometime in July. It’s been constant here, nobody is starving just always a bit exciting when you go to the supermarket to see what on your list will be available & what won’t. every time for months.


Yeh but you're something of a Jemima come lately on this topic as some of us have been observing the phenomenon since 2018


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 23, 2021)

andysays said:


> It's a struggle sometimes but we can still try, as a family of four huddle around the last tin of beans as it slowly warms on the last remaining candle...


Tallow or beeswax?


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 23, 2021)

andysays said:


> I had to go to fill up a load of jerry cans with petrol for work this morning.
> 
> No panic buying or shortages to report at BP in Stoke Newington.


What are you burning today?


----------



## bimble (Sep 23, 2021)

People who at this point are denying that there’s a brexit related issue with the food supply are just curiousities. I like it, flat earth people are also interesting.


----------



## andysays (Sep 23, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Today I walked around a Lincolnshire Aldi searching for food shortages scurrying around the shop. To my chagrin I found none. Yesterday I looked for empty shelves in a Morrison's but enjoyed an equal amount of success.


New job, or simply for pleasure?


----------



## Badgers (Sep 23, 2021)




----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 23, 2021)

andysays said:


> New job, or simply for pleasure?


Holiday. Found everything I needed in the shops including the often elusive flat parsley.


----------



## andysays (Sep 23, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> What are you burning today?.


Nothing so exciting, it's for use in lawn mowers.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 23, 2021)

bimble said:


> People who at this point are denying that there’s a brexit related issue with the food supply are just curiousities. I like it, flat earth people are also interesting.


People who think it's just started haven't been paying attention


----------



## andysays (Sep 23, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Holiday. Found everything I needed in the shops including the often elusive flat parsley.


Most of Lincolnshire is pretty flat, so good place to find parsley, I'd guess


----------



## bimble (Sep 23, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> People who think it's just started haven't been paying attention


What are these brexit shortages that began in 2018? it’s true I did not notice them. Can’t be cheese then.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 23, 2021)

andysays said:


> Most of Lincolnshire is pretty flat, so good place to find parsley, I'd guess


Saw but did not buy gluten free fajita kits - central Lincolnshire seems replete with food both staples and less usual produce


----------



## andysays (Sep 23, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Tallow or beeswax?


It was a hypothetical candle, I don't think I actually have any real ones.

I do have an old camping stove somewhere, but I'm not sure if I have any meths to burn in it any more.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 23, 2021)

bimble said:


> What are these brexit shortages that began in 2018? it’s true I did not notice them. Can’t be cheese then.


Ongoing apparently


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 23, 2021)

andysays said:


> It was a hypothetical candle, I don't think I actually have any real ones.
> 
> I do have an old camping stove somewhere, but I'm not sure if I have any meths to burn in it any more.


Before long we'll drink meths and think ourselves fortunate


----------



## bimble (Sep 23, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Yeh but you're something of a Jemima come lately on this topic as some of us have been observing the phenomenon since 2018


What have you been observing ? Go on.


----------



## andysays (Sep 23, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Saw but did not buy *gluten free fajita kits* - central Lincolnshire seems replete with food both staples and less usual produce


I'm genuinely not sure what that is, but glad to hear they're still available in the county of my birth.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 23, 2021)

bimble said:


> What have you been observing ? Go on.


The absence of foodstuffs in supermarkets but not with the degree of obsession you've brought to the table


----------



## Smangus (Sep 23, 2021)

Went into a deli in Bradford on Avon today for some bits. Lady in there saying she was waiting for some deliveries as stock was getting low. She said there was a shortage of drivers and also  cardboard, which is  new one to me. Now there was food etc in the shop but obviously there are issues, the extent of which (or not) will be very dependent on your location and the supply lines that connect to it. 

Meanwhile down the road in the Sainsburys where we went gin shopping (we found some sloes to pick) it seemed full of everything. Make of that what you will, covid, brexit, some sort of seasonal disorder, etc.


----------



## bimble (Sep 23, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> The absence of foodstuffs in supermarkets but not with the degree of obsession you've brought to the table


Since 2018? Very specific that. I think you’re just making stuff up.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 23, 2021)

bimble said:


> Since 2018? Very specific that. I think you’re just making stuff up.


No it isn't. Since 11/09/18, specifically. 









						National ginger ale shortage.
					

I like my generic sugar free ginger ale. I probably get through a litre every other day.   However, a crisis has been apparent in recent weeks. Shop after shop has been sold out. Coop. Sainsburys. Waitrose. Up north, down south, you name it.   Here is a northern Sainsburys today.     Mostly well...




					www.urban75.net
				




I'll have that apology now, cheers


----------



## Smangus (Sep 23, 2021)

bimble said:


> Since 2018? Very specific that. I think you’re just making stuff up.



I think Pickman's slipping tbh, with a man of his calibre of pedantry I would expect  time and date too.


----------



## Smangus (Sep 23, 2021)

See 👆


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Sep 23, 2021)

Smangus said:


> also  cardboard, which is  new one to me.



A combination of a surge in online shopping when the shops were closed plus tips being closed/hard to use resulting in people storing cardboard at home rather than getting back in to circulation. What we have now is the knock-on of that.


----------



## Supine (Sep 23, 2021)

Hotel I’m staying in at the moment are changing their menu yay! Manager says they are lucky to get 70% of what they order at the moment so many changes to accommodate.


----------



## Elpenor (Sep 23, 2021)

andysays said:


> I'm genuinely not sure what that is, but glad to hear they're still available in the county of my birth.


Gluten free fajita kit presumably means no wraps (because of the shortages I expect   )


----------



## bimble (Sep 23, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> No it isn't. Since 11/09/18, specifically.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I see. Brexit stole your Waitrose sandwiches in September 2018. My condolences.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 23, 2021)

bimble said:


> I see. Brexit stole your Waitrose sandwiches in September 2018. My condolences.


Your tardy false condolences aren't worth the pixels they're displayed on


----------



## bimble (Sep 23, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Your tardy false condolences aren't worth the pixels they're displayed on


Have you considered seeking the help of a grief councillor? It is obviously still haunting you to this day. I do understand, salmon and cucumber is so much better than tuna and sweetcorn. Not sure if your loss that day was brexit related tho, tbh.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 23, 2021)

bimble said:


> Have you considered seeking the help of a grief councillor? It is obviously still haunting you to this day. I do understand, salmon and cucumber is so much better than tuna and sweetcorn. Not sure if your loss that day was brexit related tho, tbh.


Your faux concern does you no credit. As you can see on that thread shortages of foodstuffs were noted three years ago. There's been lots of times I've been in Sainsbury's and there's been no milk or no fresh herbs or no own brand Peruvian chocolate. The other week there was no bleach bar one solitary bottle of domestos. Which of these is brexit related and which of these is just down to being slow getting there and other people buying the stuff? You seem sure you can tell the difference but offer no insight into your methods.


----------



## bimble (Sep 23, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Your faux concern does you no credit. As you can see on that thread shortages of foodstuffs were noted three years ago. There's been lots of times I've been in Sainsbury's and there's been no milk or no fresh herbs or no own brand Peruvian chocolate. The other week there was no bleach bar one solitary bottle of domestos. Which of these is brexit related and which of these is just down to being slow getting there and other people buying the stuff? You seem sure you can tell the difference but offer no insight into your methods.


Are you one of them ? Those who think it’s all a figment of remoaners imagination?Fantastic. My respect for you has grown. From a low bar admittedly.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 23, 2021)

bimble said:


> Are you one of them ? Those who think it’s all a figment of remoaners imagination?Fantastic.


I know what you're one of, people who demand answers but prefer not to answer questions


----------



## bimble (Sep 23, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> I know what you're one of, people who demand answers but prefer not to answer questions


I will answer any question you like. You’re just angry still aren’t you about that salmon sandwich.


----------



## bimble (Sep 23, 2021)

The idea that for months I and 90% of everyone else has just been unlucky every single time we go to the shop is .. admirable.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 23, 2021)

bimble said:


> I will answer any question you like. You’re just angry still aren’t you about that salmon sandwich.


How can you be sure that the absence of something in a supermarket is down to brexit rather than your being too late to the shop and other people buying it?


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 23, 2021)

bimble said:


> The idea that for months I and 90% of everyone else has just been unlucky every single time we go to the shop is .. admirable.


90% being another bimble fact I suppose.


----------



## Raheem (Sep 23, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> How can you be sure that the absence of something in a supermarket is down to brexit rather than your being too late to the shop and other people buying it?


Because that doesn't normally happen, at least not on consecutive visits. And because some of the time the shop put a notice up.


----------



## bimble (Sep 23, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> How can you be sure that the absence of something in a supermarket is down to brexit rather than your being too late to the shop and other people buying it?


Can’t be arsed with this. There is a serious problem going on . It’s to do with EU workers having left the country and no longer driving our trucks and chopping up our chickens, If you disagree whatever the earth is flat.
But let’s take for instance the cheap bottled fizzy water in tescos . It has not been there at all since July, not one bottle, it’s just gone, this is not because other shoppers got there first.
This is normal service now in my local Waitrose (my pic couple of weeks old). It did not used to be like this.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 23, 2021)

Raheem said:


> Because that doesn't normally happen, at least not on consecutive visits. And because some of the time the shop put a notice up.


It got to the stage with the absence of fresh herbs in the dalston Sainsbury's that I wouldn't even bother going there but nip over the way to the m&s or go to the Waitrose in the angel. But no one said last year or on 2019 that these repeated absences were brexit related.


----------



## bimble (Sep 23, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> 90% being another bimble fact I suppose.


I posted the poll earlier. 10% have not noticed any shortages lately,


----------



## bimble (Sep 23, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> no one said last year or on 2019 that these repeated absences were brexit related.


Are you doing a shit joke? transition period ended jan this year. Imports problems won’t start til jan next year so that’s good.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 23, 2021)

bimble said:


> Are you doing a shit joke? transition period ended jan this year.


I haven't noticed any greater incidence of absences than I've seen in previous years. On the subject of Tesco sparkling water, they certainly have it for deliveries: so I see no reason why they can't have it in shops


----------



## bimble (Sep 23, 2021)

Ok. So there are no shortages, or if there are they’re not related to brexit. Absolutely delusional but interesting point of view.


----------



## teqniq (Sep 23, 2021)

No value orange juice (cartons) in Lidl or Aldi near me last week and the week before I bought the last 3 in Lidl and the last box of PG tips and now this:









						BP and Tesco ration fuel and shut petrol stations as gas prices rise
					

The oil giants are struggling to restock pumps quickly enough.




					metro.co.uk
				




anyone who thinks this has nothing to do with Brexit is clearly having a laugh.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 23, 2021)

bimble said:


> Ok. So there are no shortages, or if there are they’re not related to brexit. Absolutely delusional but interesting point of view.


What I actually said was I haven't noticed any greater incidence of shortages, not that the causes of said shortages remain the same. It's amazing how frequently there's a great difference between what someone says said and what you say they said. Down to brexit I suppose


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 23, 2021)

Raheem said:


> Because that doesn't normally happen, at least not on consecutive visits. And because some of the time the shop put a notice up.


Never seen one of these signs. Have you a picture?


----------



## bimble (Sep 23, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Never seen one of these signs. Have you a picture?



Countrywide supply issues.


----------



## bimble (Sep 23, 2021)

Is this what that word gaslighting actually means? Fucking irritating whatever it is.
We are living through an interesting time, refusing to pay attention just seems ridiculous.


----------



## Ax^ (Sep 23, 2021)

of course its all about the after effect of covid rather than brexit

the lack of energy and significant reserves for production is going to kick in shortly


also it going to start hitting as the lack of C02 is extemely important in the supply chain from beer to fresh food

even fruit and veg is going to be affected as you cannot stop it spoiling without Co2

one plant is back open for productions but don't clap to much, as its  short time measure

due to short sightedness by repeated governments, the stores are not avaliable to keep it going
even during the hight of the north sea production, selling was more important than storing it


but don't worry we kinda solds some nuke subs to australia


----------



## ska invita (Sep 23, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> I haven't noticed any greater incidence of absences than I've seen in previous years. On the subject of Tesco sparkling water, they certainly have it for deliveries: so I see no reason why they can't have it in shops
> View attachment 289856











						Supermarkets hit by shortage of bottled water
					

Images of empty shelves and out-of-stock notifications in Tesco were posted on social media this week




					www.thegrocer.co.uk
				












						Why is it so difficult to buy bottled water?
					

Bottled water is sparse on the shelves at the moment as the industry has sought to prioritise more essential items during the HGV...




					www.edp24.co.uk
				




"Industry insiders have confirmed that the HGV driver shortage has meant space on lorries is in shorter supply.

As a result heavy, bulky items like water which push up the lorry's weight are not being prioritised in the same way other items are. ".


----------



## bimble (Sep 23, 2021)

When people take gaslighting very seriously is it because they come to actually doubt their own eyes and experience ? Or are they just driven mad because they have to actually live with someone like Pickman's model idk.


----------



## Ax^ (Sep 23, 2021)

the fact your limited by the amount of meat you can buy is project fear at least in london


----------



## Ax^ (Sep 23, 2021)

flat beer for christmas thank you farrage


----------



## bimble (Sep 23, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> I haven't noticed any greater incidence of absences than I've seen in previous years. On the subject of Tesco sparkling water, they certainly have it for deliveries: so I see no reason why they can't have it in shops
> View attachment 289856



not that one, by the way. I said the cheap one. It used to exist but is not a thing any more. even online  I used to buy it sometimes, for special, in the before times.


----------



## Ax^ (Sep 23, 2021)

people who like sparking water are wronguns...


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Sep 23, 2021)

Tbf people who buy bottled water can go fuck themselves.


----------



## bimble (Sep 23, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Tbf people who buy bottled water can go fuck themselves.


yes. Brexit to the rescue again ! Smiting the evil fizzy water guzzlers.


There is no shortage
   \
      ok there is a shortage
          \
             its not brexit related tho, its covid / capitalism.
                \
                     ok maybe it is brexit related =         the shortage (of fireworks / milkshakes / bin men is actually a GOOD THING .


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Sep 23, 2021)

bimble said:


> yes. Brexit to the rescue again ! Smiting the evil fizzy water guzzlers.
> 
> 
> There is no shortage
> ...




No one as far as I can see is saying there are no shortages. Some people are stating as fact that the shortages are 100% down to Brexit, in order to make a point/vent spleen. As that is demonstrably not true others play down the shortages or claim not to see them, remoaners get increasingly wound up and post more about shortages being down to Brexit. And so it goes on, ad infinitum.

People who buy bottled water can go fuck themselves though.


----------



## bimble (Sep 23, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> No one as far as I can see is saying there are no shortages. Some people are stating as fact that the shortages are 100% down to Brexit, in order to make a point/vent spleen. As that is demonstrably not true others play down the shortages or claim not to see them, remoaners get increasingly wound up and post more about shortages being down to Brexit. And so it goes on, ad infinitum.
> 
> People who buy bottled water can go fuck themselves though.


Some impressive people right here do seem to be saying that nothing particularly is going on, they've not seen any shortages, or its the same as it ever was, its like in 2018 when someone ate their sandwich or its Remoaners doing photoshops of empty shelves etc.

But anyway, what do you think the current shortages are caused by, has covid taken away the fizzy waters and chickens?

This is why I love this thread, or at least can't leave it alone, I love watching the creativity of the people finding a way to either deny the issues or else say that they are in fact not to do with brexit or else they are good newses. God for dogs, or molluscs if need be.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Sep 23, 2021)

bimble said:


> Some impressive people do seem to be saying that nothing particularly is going on, they'vee not seen any shortages, remoaners are doing photoshops of empty shelves etc. But anyway, what do you think the current shortages are caused by, has covid taken away the fizzy waters?




I think some people are winding you up and it’s working.

A perfect storm of Covid and Brexit is causing the shortages, add in the CO2 shortage (that one is down to Covid) and more shortages are a cert.

Extracting water, sticking it in plastic bottles, creating CO2 and adding it to the water and carting it around the country is not good at any time, thankfully due to the mixture of driver shortages (Brexit and Covid) and CO2 shortages (Covid) you can’t indulge in your planet harming habits. If you must, but a Soda Stream.


----------



## bimble (Sep 23, 2021)

Yes. I'm over it, the bottled water habit was very occasional use for me I am coping fine, blessing in disguise. Its been missing since July tho, thats not the CO2 thing its the lorries.

I am completely out of spicy tomato mackerel fillets though, which is a perilous situation, and feel real trepidation about whether or not i will find any tomorrow. None in either shop last time i looked and at that point i had a spare.


----------



## Badgers (Sep 23, 2021)

I think 'no downside' is a bit rich. Even for the staunch Brexit fans.


----------



## bimble (Sep 23, 2021)

Is it happening yet the bright future?


----------



## Artaxerxes (Sep 23, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Tbf people who buy bottled water can go fuck themselves.



Boils my piss that its so popular and that so much of their own is reflogged to poorer countries rather than decent investment in safe reliable tap water.


----------



## bimble (Sep 23, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> safe reliable tap water.


not fizzy


----------



## Spymaster (Sep 23, 2021)

bimble said:


> This is why I love this thread, or at least can't leave it alone ...



Do you think you might be investing a little too much time on it?


----------



## Artaxerxes (Sep 23, 2021)

bimble said:


> not fizzy



Fizzy water is an abomination before whatever deity or cosmic force you care to name.


----------



## bimble (Sep 23, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Do you think you might be investing a little too much time on it?


yes. But it helps me to be nice to the people in my actual life. more compassionate. Strange but true.


----------



## mojo pixy (Sep 23, 2021)

I think the thing is, some places are having food shortages and some aren't. Where there are shortages it's not accurate to place the blame entirely on Brexit, though Brexit is contributing. Will possibly get worse, I'm certainly expecting effects of Brexit to worsen before things improve - but that will be the fault of the people in charge, broadly, not People Who Voted Brexit. Those people (the ones in charge) would be fucking us all anyway, with or without Brexit. And as mooted once or twice, when we divest ourselves of them (and we will at some point) we'll _still _not be in the EU, and _then _we may start to see why leaving was a good idea. It's ridiculous to pretend things were going to be better straight away, and ridiculous to forget that in 2016 hardly anyone had even heard of Coronavirus.

And I still voted Remain. That ship sailed and sank so.


----------



## keybored (Sep 23, 2021)

bimble said:


> This is how your brain works when you’ve turned into a brexit maniac, unwilling to see a single flaw in any of the actual brexit we are all enjoying. I did a helpful diagram.  Can you imagine how much Johnson and co love you for your unwavering willingness to do this work for them.
> View attachment 289723


I think you've suffered an #FBPE


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Sep 23, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Boils my piss



that's a bit of an extreme way to deal with a shortage of bottled water...


----------



## bimble (Sep 23, 2021)

keybored said:


> I think you've suffered an #FBPE


I don’t know what that means but probably


----------



## keybored (Sep 23, 2021)

bimble said:


> I don’t know what that means but probably


I think it means Full-Blown Psychotic Episode.


----------



## bimble (Sep 23, 2021)

keybored said:


> I think it means Full-Blown Psychotic Episode.


i feel fine, apart from the anxiety about the mackerel fillets.


----------



## Spymaster (Sep 23, 2021)

bimble said:


> yes. But it helps me to be nice to the people in my actual life. more compassionate. Strange but true.



Very. The thread's always been shit but now it's not even pretending to be worthwhile. It's just about who can post up the most news items that seem to support their views.


----------



## bimble (Sep 23, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Very. The thread's always been shit but now it's not even pretending to be worthwhile. It's just about who can post up the most news items that seem to support their views.


So this website is not a place where a conversation about the actual unfurling of brexit might take place? The consequences of it, the changes and challenges? Thats a shame. Seems a kind of interesting subject to me.
Ignoring it and Moving On, even though we haven't even half brexited yet, is government policy so fair enough.


----------



## Spymaster (Sep 23, 2021)

bimble said:


> So this website is not a place where a conversation about the actual unfurling of brexit might take place? The consequences of it, the changes and challenges?



The site could be but this thread isn't doing that.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Sep 23, 2021)

Puddy_Tat said:


> that's a bit of an extreme way to deal with a shortage of bottled water...



Best way to replicate fizzy water though


----------



## Supine (Sep 23, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> The site could be but this thread isn't doing that.



This thread is highlighting things that are happening. As those things are getting worse specialised threads on individual subjects are also springing up. Nobody is forced to read this thread.


----------



## Spymaster (Sep 23, 2021)

Supine said:


> Nobody is forced to read this thread.



What's that got to do with anything?


----------



## bimble (Sep 23, 2021)

Maybe a new thread is needed, to highlight the good stuff. not sure what it would have in it though.


----------



## MrSki (Sep 23, 2021)

Well it turns out it was not 'project fear' but 'project understatement'. This whole shit show is going to get worse before it gets better. Are there still people claiming the photos of food shortages are from last year? Fucking muppets.


----------



## Supine (Sep 23, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> What's that got to do with anything?



Your derailing it by discussing why you don’t like the thread. Just pointing out reading it is optional


----------



## Supine (Sep 23, 2021)

bimble said:


> Maybe a new thread is needed, to highlight the good stuff. not sure what it would have in it though.



That was tried already!


----------



## Spymaster (Sep 23, 2021)

Supine said:


> Your derailing it by discussing why you don’t like the thread. Just pointing out reading it is optional



Well as you know, you lot are here for my amusement, not the other way around. I dip in and out of this according to my mood. It often gets unwatched and picked up another time. There's no denying it's shit though.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Sep 23, 2021)

Supine said:


> That was tried already!



I think it was tried a few times.

Closest we've got is HGV drivers getting a pay bump, which is fair enough.


----------



## keybored (Sep 23, 2021)

MrSki said:


> This whole shit show is going to get worse before it gets better.


Careful now, you just let a little optimism slip out.


----------



## bimble (Sep 23, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Well as you know, you lot are here for my amusement, not the other way around. I dip in and out of this according to my mood. It often gets unwatched and picked up another time. There's no denying it's shit though.


You see the UK’s deaparture from the Eu and the common market as nothing other than a fun trolling opportunity, like threads about cyclists or vegans. Your contributions to the subject are valued accordingly by all.


----------



## Spymaster (Sep 23, 2021)

bimble said:


> You see the UK’s deaparture from the Eu and the common market this thread as nothing other than a fun trolling opportunity, like threads about cyclists or vegans. Your contributions to the subject are valued accordingly by all.


There is decent discussion to be found regarding leaving the union on various threads. This just isn't one of them. This is just two sets of kids calling each other names. Nothing wrong with that, I'm all for it. But don't kid yourself that it's anything else.


----------



## bimble (Sep 23, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> There is decent discussion to be found regarding leaving the union on various threads. This just isn't one of them. This is just two sets of kids calling each other names. Nothing wrong with that, I'm all for it. But don't kid yourself that it's anything else.


You’ve not been reading the thread . Which is good, keep it up.


----------



## gosub (Sep 23, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Anyone been out for a panic tank-fill yet?


Brimmed tank today but no queues noticable.  Not panic buying was just empty. That said have been planning on refilling one of the emergency Jerry's that the lawnmower drank along with coal restock but that's more about the Natural Gas thing


----------



## Badgers (Sep 23, 2021)




----------



## gosub (Sep 23, 2021)

Badgers said:


>




So it probably would have been in a turkeys intersest to vote for Brexit


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 23, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> I think some people are winding you up and it’s working.
> 
> A perfect storm of Covid and Brexit is causing the shortages, add in the CO2 shortage (that one is down to Covid) and more shortages are a cert.
> 
> Extracting water, sticking it in plastic bottles, creating CO2 and adding it to the water and carting it around the country is not good at any time, thankfully due to the mixture of driver shortages (Brexit and Covid) and CO2 shortages (Covid) you can’t indulge in your planet harming habits. If you must, but a Soda Stream.


You don't have to wind bimble up, she can do that herself


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 23, 2021)

.


----------



## A380 (Sep 23, 2021)




----------



## Ax^ (Sep 24, 2021)

watching the bbc this morning about a few forcourts running out of petrol reminds me a of a simpson episode




sure people will be senisible and not panic buy


----------



## Spymaster (Sep 24, 2021)

bimble said:


> You’ve not been reading the thread . Which is good, keep it up.


Yes, I’m sure it’s only the bits that I _have_ read that have been worthless tendentious caterwauling and everything else is high level political debate.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Sep 24, 2021)

Heroes.


----------



## andysays (Sep 24, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Heroes.



Just for one day...


----------



## Badgers (Sep 24, 2021)

Deluded is too small a word


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 24, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Deluded is too small a word



What sort of numpty has bookshelves like shapps?


----------



## Chilli.s (Sep 24, 2021)

So basically Shapps is saying that lowering standards is good

cunts the lot of 'em


----------



## two sheds (Sep 24, 2021)

At least he's got a flag, that makes him more trustworthy and will please the faithful.


----------



## gosub (Sep 24, 2021)

Chilli.s said:


> So basically Shapps is saying that lowering standards is good
> 
> cunts the lot of 'em



Except given the advances in automation and driver aides, the people training now ten years time DoT will have them mostly operating dead man's handle switches


----------



## MysteryGuest (Sep 24, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Anyone been out for a panic tank-fill yet?


I've filled my tank, yeah.

It's parked on the lawn right now, ready to go to Waitrose.


----------



## xenon (Sep 24, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Heroes.




I hope they all had the salmon mousse.


----------



## xenon (Sep 24, 2021)

Anicdote. Just got a cab. Driver said petrol stations unusually busy.

Do people buy extra fuel in gerry cans, is that a thing? I presume rather just filling up today rather than in a week or so?


----------



## TopCat (Sep 24, 2021)

Car drivers panicking is a thing. Once one does it and is seen the rest join in, soon to be joined by breathless tv people.


----------



## Kaka Tim (Sep 24, 2021)

xenon said:


> Anicdote. Just got a cab. Driver said petrol stations unusually busy.
> 
> Do people buy extra fuel in gerry cans, is that a thing? I presume rather just filling up today rather than in a week or so?



I dont think its that common - its more that if everyone fills up - the pumps run dry. And everyone is going to fill up. 😕


----------



## editor (Sep 24, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Good, animals fucking hate it, Diwali too.


Yeah, fuck the kids because you never enjoyed fireworks when you were young, eh?


----------



## editor (Sep 24, 2021)

bimble said:


> that happened quite a lot, i saw a few of those help yourself stories, but there's a limit to what you can do with fifty thousand cougettes as anyone with an allotment knows.


And a lot of the farms are literally out in the middle of nowhere.


----------



## TopCat (Sep 24, 2021)

Kaka Tim said:


> I dont think its that common - its more that if everyone fills up - the pumps run dry. And everyone is going to fill up. 😕


The price usually drops then and people can’t take advantage as their tanks are full and wallets empty.


----------



## TopCat (Sep 24, 2021)

editor said:


> Yeah, fuck the kids because you never enjoyed fireworks when you were young, eh?


Well said that man.


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 24, 2021)

The essential and major issue has been resolved now as brother in law has brought these over


----------



## TopCat (Sep 24, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> The essential and major issue has been resolved now as brother in law has brought these over
> 
> View attachment 289926


Serious crime that importing meat illegally into the EU. Macron will puff his chest out if he reads yer post.


----------



## Ax^ (Sep 24, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> The essential and major issue has been resolved now as brother in law has brought these over
> 
> View attachment 289926



not to spoil the party but don't look up product recalls


----------



## two sheds (Sep 24, 2021)

I ate my last packet circumspectly


----------



## Cerv (Sep 24, 2021)

weeks of disruption to food supplies & Johnson couldn't care less. one day of disruption to petrol stations & he's all over it. interesting.





__





						Subscribe to read | Financial Times
					

News, analysis and comment from the Financial Times, the worldʼs leading global business publication




					www.ft.com
				





			https://archive.vn/IvhVv
		




> Boris Johnson has given the go-ahead to ministers to relax UK immigration rules to allow more foreign truck drivers into the country to ease shortages at petrol stations and wider economic disruption.
> 
> One person close to the situation said the prime minister had issued instructions to fix the escalating problem. “Boris wants this solved,” he said. Meanwhile an ally of Johnson said: “Boris is completely fed up with bad headlines on this and wants it sorted and doesn’t care about visa limits any more.”



that "doesn't care about visas anymore" has interesting implications for where the post-Brexit trade deals, etc will be going. suspect we'll end up with immigration numbers exactly as before, even if the passport breakdown of that is a bit different. despite everything the leave campaigns stood for and promised.


----------



## bimble (Sep 24, 2021)

I wonder if EU drivers will rush back here in great numbers now that the Gov wants to give them temporary visas. Seriously doubt it tbh.


----------



## Yossarian (Sep 24, 2021)

bimble said:


> I wonder if EU drivers will rush back here in great numbers now that the Gov wants to give them temporary visas. Seriously doubt it tbh.



Yep, with a Europe-wide shortage of HGV drivers, I don't think there can be that many drivers in Bulgaria etc. who have been sitting around waiting for a green light from Johnson.


----------



## Elpenor (Sep 24, 2021)

Given lorry drivers often have to sleep in lay-bys / shit in hedges I can’t imagine they’d hurry back if they have equivalent pay more locally.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Sep 24, 2021)

Cerv said:


> weeks of disruption to food supplies & Johnson couldn't care less. one day of disruption to petrol stations & he's all over it. interesting.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You don’t fuck with the pumps or with houses. Governments have been fellating car owners and home owners for so long and making society all about them that the slightest ripple causes absolute fucking rage when things go wrong for them


----------



## TopCat (Sep 24, 2021)

Traffic problems are happening now due to panic buying of fuel by numptys.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Sep 24, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> What sort of numpty has bookshelves like shapps?



What you mean your bookshelves at home aren't lined with Grant Shapps posters? Weirdo.


----------



## Supine (Sep 24, 2021)

Bre


TopCat said:


> Traffic problems are happening now due to panic buying of fuel by numptys.



Brexit had been fantastic for creating parking spaces on roads and motorways.


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 24, 2021)

Supine said:


> Bre
> 
> 
> Brexit had been fantastic for creating parking spaces on roads and motorways.



Lay-by Britain


----------



## Ax^ (Sep 24, 2021)

bit weird innit old people may freeze to death over the winter due to the price of heating their homes not a word from de piffle,

people not being able to drive their own Cars send in th army


----------



## Badgers (Sep 24, 2021)

#worldbeating #ovenready Brexit


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 24, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> not to spoil the party but don't look up product recalls


Past best date is Feb next year . I’m back in the U.K. October so if I’m not satisfied I’ll post back to brother in law in Durham .


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## Ax^ (Sep 24, 2021)

hmm don't think its that brand that was recalled due to salmonella concerns 

you should be alright


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## Pickman's model (Sep 24, 2021)

Badgers said:


> #worldbeating #ovenready Brexit


Johnson's world-beating patent penguin pellets


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## andysays (Sep 24, 2021)

bimble said:


> I wonder if EU drivers will rush back here in great numbers now that the Gov wants to give them temporary visas. Seriously doubt it tbh.


Weren't you (maybe it wasn't you, but it was certainly someone) suggesting a few weeks ago that the solution to the driver shortage was to offer them all temporary visas as haulage industry bosses were demanding?

What if, as would be perfectly understandable, EU drivers don't rush immediately rush here in great numbers? 

Would you and others then recognise that there is an underlying problem with the way many industries have been dependent on attracting large numbers of cheaper workers from the EU or elsewhere rather than creating conditions where jobs can be and are done by long term residents in the country where they're living, rather than the inherently unstable system we've seen in recent decades?


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## ska invita (Sep 24, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> not to spoil the party but don't look up product recalls


Pah, Salmonella never hurt anyone!


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## ska invita (Sep 24, 2021)

andysays said:


> Weren't you (maybe it wasn't you, but it was certainly someone) suggesting a few weeks ago that the solution to the driver shortage was to offer them all temporary visas as haulage industry bosses were demanding?
> 
> What if, as would be perfectly understandable, EU drivers don't rush immediately rush here in great numbers?
> 
> Would you and others then recognise that there is an underlying problem with the way many industries have been dependent on attracting large numbers of cheaper workers from the EU or elsewhere rather than creating conditions where jobs can be and are done by long term residents in the country where they're living, rather than the inherently unstable system we've seen in recent decades?


Problems? In our society? Regarding pay and work? First I've heard of it...


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## Raheem (Sep 24, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Pah, Salmonella never hurt anyone!


And she's not to blame just because her parents were SNP supporters.


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## Ax^ (Sep 24, 2021)




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## Ax^ (Sep 24, 2021)




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## Ax^ (Sep 24, 2021)




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## gosub (Sep 24, 2021)

Ax^ said:


>



Who'd have thought the reintroduction of imperial measures would be so popular.  People are literally queuing round the block to buy a gallon of petrol


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## MrSki (Sep 24, 2021)




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## Ax^ (Sep 24, 2021)

.


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## Supine (Sep 24, 2021)

gosub said:


> Who'd have thought the reintroduction of imperial measures would be so popular.  People are literally queuing round the block to buy a gallon of petrol



New joke thread >


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## Artaxerxes (Sep 24, 2021)

Ax^ said:


>


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## brogdale (Sep 24, 2021)




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## MrSki (Sep 24, 2021)

brogdale said:


> View attachment 289986


But he has got a paddle?


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## brogdale (Sep 24, 2021)

MrSki said:


> But he has got a paddle?


If he can't handle it, has he really?


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## TopCat (Sep 24, 2021)

sigh


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## brogdale (Sep 24, 2021)

Yep, plenty to sigh about...


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## krtek a houby (Sep 24, 2021)

Ax^ said:


>


#craftypiss


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## Nine Bob Note (Sep 24, 2021)

brogdale said:


> View attachment 289986



I hope Patel's sending in a gunboat before he reaches Kent


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## Cloo (Sep 24, 2021)

They're going to proclaim this U-turn about visas for HGV drivers to be a marvellous example of how we can now 'choose to let in only the skills we need', aren't they?

Ignoring that we had frictionless, and much cheaper, access to all the skills we needed previously, which was basically all of them.


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## Raheem (Sep 24, 2021)

Cloo said:


> They're going to proclaim this U-turn about visas for HGV drivers to be a marvellous example of how we can now 'choose to let in only the skills we need', aren't they?
> 
> Ignoring that we had frictionless, and much cheaper, access to all the skills we needed previously, which was basically all of them.


I think it's not going to work. Companies can actually get visas for drivers at the moment, but it isn't happening. Making it a bit easier might help a bit, but I reckon the problem might be that EU drivers just aren't interested.


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## The39thStep (Sep 25, 2021)




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## ruffneck23 (Sep 25, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Pah, Salmonella never hurt anyone!


It put me in sick bay and I puked at the headmasters feet during a lecture about Haley's comet, when it last passed.. got me a couple of days off school , so i suppose It didn't actually hurt me, but makes me smile. I've not thought about that in 35 years


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## MrSki (Sep 25, 2021)




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## Badgers (Sep 25, 2021)

Should start getting better from October 1st (next Friday) 

Oh, hang on...


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## Wolveryeti (Sep 25, 2021)

Academic study estimates the Brexit depreciation alone cost the average household £870/yr: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/iere.12541


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## Cloo (Sep 25, 2021)

Raheem said:


> I think it's not going to work. Companies can actually get visas for drivers at the moment, but it isn't happening. Making it a bit easier might help a bit, but I reckon the problem might be that EU drivers just aren't interested.


Well, we did effectively tell them all to fuck off home, so I wouldn't blame them for not wanting to help us.


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## bimble (Sep 25, 2021)

andysays said:


> Weren't you (maybe it wasn't you, but it was certainly someone) suggesting a few weeks ago that the solution to the driver shortage was to offer them all temporary visas as haulage industry bosses were demanding?
> 
> What if, as would be perfectly understandable, EU drivers don't rush immediately rush here in great numbers?
> 
> Would you and others then recognise that there is an underlying problem with the way many industries have been dependent on attracting large numbers of cheaper workers from the EU or elsewhere rather than creating conditions where jobs can be and are done by long term residents in the country where they're living, rather than the inherently unstable system we've seen in recent decades?



If they come rushing back or not makes no difference to the underlying causes does it? certainly wouldn't change my mind about anything.

 The underlying cause is that whole swathes of our economy have evolved to become totally dependant on migrants from poorer counties  to function (agriculture food transport hospitality etc) .
I don't think theres any difference between 'brexit caused the shortages' and 'underlying issues that made us dependant on migrant labour caused the shortages'.
& I don't think its at all likely that the underlying causes are going to be fixed. 
Certainly not with agriculture anyway. With lorry drivers it would mean for instance massive proper investment in infrastructure to make the job less shit, that seems unlikely to happen but if it does it would take years, and whether temp visas are issued now or not won't change anything really.


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## Badgers (Sep 25, 2021)

But but but...

Brexit was oven ready. We were told this 100% by Disgraced Prime Minister de Pfeffel Johnson. 

So since 2016 they must have been aware of these issues and put solid plans in place to sort it all out?


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## Supine (Sep 25, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Should start getting better from October 1st (next Friday)
> 
> Oh, hang on...




Brexit just keeps on giving.


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## Badgers (Sep 25, 2021)

Probably just due to Covid? 









						Union claims job losses at Luton's Vauxhall factory could be as high as 417 staff
					

Unite says Flexistaff and 23 month fixed term employees will bear brunt of the losses




					www-lutontoday-co-uk.cdn.ampproject.org


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## Pickman's model (Sep 25, 2021)

bimble said:


> If they come rushing back or not makes no difference to the underlying causes does it? certainly wouldn't change my mind about anything.
> 
> The underlying cause is that whole swathes of our economy have evolved to become totally dependant on migrants from poorer counties  to function (agriculture food transport hospitality etc) .
> I don't think theres any difference between 'brexit caused the shortages' and 'underlying issues that made us dependant on migrant labour caused the shortages'.
> ...


Yeh cos everything was rosy and autarkic years back

If you ignore the seasonal labourers coming over from Ireland to work on harvests. And it's not like railways and canals and motorways built themselves. Careful listeners to McAlpine's Fusiliers will note the Irish narrator had worked alongside Russians, Czechs and Poles. And the construction firm Murphy was founded by a man from Cork.


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## krtek a houby (Sep 25, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Yeh cos everything was rosy and autarkic years back
> 
> If you ignore the seasonal labourers coming over from Ireland to work on harvests. And it's not like railways and canals and motorways built themselves. Careful listeners to McAlpine's Fusiliers will note the Irish narrator had worked alongside Russians, Czechs and Poles. And the construction firm Murphy was founded by a man from Cork.



Isn't it about time Britain became part of the the Republic of Ireland?


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## TopCat (Sep 25, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> Isn't it about time Britain became part of the the Republic of Ireland?


You have enough on your plate trying to intergrate the loyalist bastards.


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## krtek a houby (Sep 25, 2021)

TopCat said:


> You have enough on your plate trying to intergrate the loyalist bastards.



Will win them over with love.


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## Pickman's model (Sep 25, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> Isn't it about time Britain became part of the the Republic of Ireland?


Not some enlarged 26 co gombeen shitfest but a ~126 county democratic socialist republic as a starting point


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## A380 (Sep 25, 2021)




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## krtek a houby (Sep 25, 2021)

A380 said:


> View attachment 290049



No queues in the EU?


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## A380 (Sep 25, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> No queues in the EU?


What is this, FaceBook?

“ No QuEUeS in tHe EU”


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## Ax^ (Sep 25, 2021)

the fail living up to its name








what we need is relaxed immigration rule to lure european workers 


Brexit was so worth it


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## bimble (Sep 25, 2021)

oh. UK should definitely do something like this. EU just agreed 600 million euros investment in improving truck parking facilties.








						IRU & ETF welcome new EU funding for Safe & Secure Truck Parking areas - Fleet Transport
					

The International Road Transport Union (IRU), the world road transport organisation, and ETF, Europe’s Transport Workers’ Federation, have welcomed the European Commission´s launch of a call for proposals to access €100 million in CEF funding to improve the network of safe and secure truck...




					fleet.ie


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## two sheds (Sep 25, 2021)

We can expect government to issue thousands of complementary trowels in response


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## bimble (Sep 25, 2021)

i just learnt that in the 1970s oil crisis, the government here introduced a national speed limit of 50mph. I'd be up for that coming back.


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## Ax^ (Sep 25, 2021)

build something useful but how would they fund Boris latest bullshit grand idea 


like a boat or a fantasy bridge to belfast


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## Pickman's model (Sep 25, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> build something useful but how would they fund Boris latest bullshit grand idea
> 
> 
> like a boat or a fantasy bridge to belfast


Boris Johnson will lay the foundation stone of the grytviken - buenos aires friendship bridge in a couple of years. Then he'll start working on the second stone, the third and so on


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## Badgers (Sep 25, 2021)

Couple of questions... 

Is the festival of Brexit still on next year? 

Given the failings of our incompetent government will we see a return of three days weekends?


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## Ax^ (Sep 25, 2021)

it been rebranded Festival uk and is happening next year according to the website


and he is a promotional picture of how Boris will look during the event


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## Pickman's model (Sep 25, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Couple of questions...
> 
> Is the festival of Brexit still on next year?
> 
> Given the failings of our incompetent government will we see a return of three days weekends?


Four day weekends and three day weeks


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## bimble (Sep 25, 2021)

The arrogance of this. I hope nobody comes when they generously offer a bunch of temporary visas.


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## Ax^ (Sep 25, 2021)

of course trying to entice workers whilst repeatly highlighting temporary visa


sure to get workers to change their whole lifestyle, apply for a passport , national insurance and catch a ferry from france another country

whilst they can move around Europe with photo id and the wage and job shortages are the same



#worldbeating Brexit taking back control


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## Chilli.s (Sep 25, 2021)

I they had any ability to plan ahead then these visas would have been issued and the people welcomed to do these jobs months ago... a shitshow run by a bunch of self serving chancers


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## bimble (Sep 25, 2021)

Fuck it, i hope there are absolutely no turkeys at xmas, and no pigs in blankets either, and maybe even a notable booze shortage, and that it gets blamed on the government and not on covid. Don't want anyone to go hungry obvs but absolutely no bulgarians should come to our rescue at this point to smooth things over for Johnson and co.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Sep 25, 2021)

Cloo said:


> we had frictionless, and much cheaper, access to all the skills we needed previously




When you say skills you mean people.


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## Raheem (Sep 25, 2021)

Special visas so employers can let you go whenever they want, lowest rest requirements in Europe, fuel panic buying.

Honestly, I think the biggest risk is potential applicants will think it's all too good to be true.


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## bimble (Sep 25, 2021)

EU drivers set to ignore Boris Johnson’s visa offer and won't come to UK to solve petrol crisis
					

Marco Digioia, general secretary of the European Road Haulers Association, said: "I expect many drivers will not return to the UK even if the UK Government allows them to."




					inews.co.uk


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## bimble (Sep 25, 2021)

If nobody comes, they might have to do plan B ('Operation Escalin') which is getting the army to go around delivering petrol to the service stations, and maybe the turkeys as well. Which would be acceptable as long as everyone knows it's happening, people in full combat gear pulling up at tescos with the pigs in blankets to save the day.


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## Ax^ (Sep 25, 2021)

you'd think parts of the british media and public celebrating the idea that they are all fucking off was harming our prospects of enticing them


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## klang (Sep 25, 2021)

bimble said:


> If nobody comes, they might have to do plan B ('operation escalon') which is getting the army to go around delivering petrol to the service stations, and maybe the turkeys as well. Which would be fine as long as everyone knows it's happening.


they might just hand down chewing gum from their tanks to kids


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## Ax^ (Sep 25, 2021)

bimble said:


> If nobody comes, they might have to do plan B ('operation escalon') which is getting the army to go around delivering petrol to the service stations, and maybe the turkeys as well. Which would be fine as long as everyone knows it's happening.



they might just have to increase the wages and offer government paid training programmes for new drivers

rather than just hitting the unemployed with sticks


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Sep 25, 2021)

bimble said:


> EU drivers set to ignore Boris Johnson’s visa offer and won't come to UK to solve petrol crisis
> 
> 
> Marco Digioia, general secretary of the European Road Haulers Association, said: "I expect many drivers will not return to the UK even if the UK Government allows them to."
> ...




Of course they won't Germany has a massive shortage of HGV drivers and is geographically much closers to the 'skills'.


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## bimble (Sep 25, 2021)

hahaha. 

"According to Ministry of Defence sources, troops are being mobilized and sent to fuel depots across the country this weekend in an effort to resolve the fuel supply problems. ".. 

"There аlso аppeаrs to be а misunderstаnding аbout where а request for militаry аssistаnce should come from, with the Ministry of Defence believing it should come from the Depаrtment for Business, Energy аnd Industriаl Strаtegy (BEIS), rаther thаn Mr Shаpps’ trаnsport depаrtment. “It is our understаnding thаt а request for militаry drivers would come from BEIS,” а MoD officiаl told me. 








						HGV shortage: Under Operation Escalin, hundreds of troops could be ready to deliver petrol within hours. - Techno Trenz
					

Hundreds of military personnel could be making fuel deliveries within hours to fill empty pumps, but ministers have yet to ask the Ministry of Defence for assistance in resolving acute supply issues on UK forecourts. The Ministry of Defense is ready to provide drivers to help alleviate the fuel...




					technotrenz.com


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## klang (Sep 25, 2021)

there must be some loons banging on about martial law yet....


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## bimble (Sep 25, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Of course they won't Germany has a massive shortage of HGV drivers and is geographically much closers to the 'skills'.


If UK offers seriously more money then they might. I mean, they used to come here, and Germany hasn't relocated.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Sep 25, 2021)

bimble said:


> If UK offers seriously more money then they might. I mean, they used to come here, and Germany hasn't relocated.




Germany was just as reliant on slave labour skills as the UK was. When Covid reared its ugly head the work died up and the skills headed home. As with here they have not returned there either. Germany is upping wages to tempt these skills back, so the UK will need to be significantly more to attract them, given Brexit red tape, the channel crossing, extra distance from home.

Presenting this, as with most things as a solid consequence of Brexit is wrong, Brexit has a hand in it obviously, but is not the main player here, the relentless barrage of "Oh look what Brexit's done now!" bollocks is not going to have the effect that those peddling it hope for, quite the opposite.


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## two sheds (Sep 25, 2021)

Perfect neighbourly behaviour:

"Go on, fuck off the lot of you, just fuck off out of it ...... errr ..... please come back"


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## klang (Sep 25, 2021)

bimble said:


> Fuck it, i hope there are absolutely no turkeys at xmas, and no pigs in blankets either, and maybe even a notable booze shortage, and that it gets blamed on the government and not on covid.


nothing against Christmas, but would love Boris having to cancel two Christmases in a row


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## bimble (Sep 25, 2021)

the german press is enjoying our predicament.
"UK Gov weighs up sending in the troops to deliver petrol"

Bahnhof Strasse i am blaming the government, their utter mindboggling incompetence at handling the  whole thing, from negotiation to implementation, not 'brexit' itself, which is just an idea really.

I am enjoying the spectacle that now, months later, they're wanting to issue a bunch of temp visas, and their own emergency yellow hammer contingency plan with the army even that is a ridiculous balls up with nobody knowing how its even supposed to be implemented.


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## Ax^ (Sep 25, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Presenting this, as with most things as a solid consequence of Brexit is wrong, Brexit has a hand in it obviously, but is not the main player here, the relentless barrage of "Oh look what Brexit's done now!" bollocks is not going to have the effect that those peddling it hope for, quite the opposite.



ah the current fuel problem was not cause by brexit it just helped it caused mostly by daft fuckwits

like people who voted for the exit

the real problems from brexit are in the food supply chain which will kick in shortly


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Sep 25, 2021)

bimble said:


> the german press is enjoying our predicament.
> "UK Gov weighs up sending in the troops to deliver petrol"
> 
> Bahnhof Strasse i am blaming the government, their utter mindboggling incompetence at handling the  whole thing, from negotiation to implementation, not 'brexit' itself, which is just an idea really.




Of course the government fucked it, the forensic analysis goes back to May's red line wibble. So if fingers should be pointed they should go to QueenOfGoths, if she had voted harder May wouldn't have been there. tbf Quoggy shouldn't feel too bad, my mate Liz caused Gulf War II cos she 'had to' wash her hair on the morning of the march and it made us all an hour late...


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## Ax^ (Sep 25, 2021)

bimble said:


> the german press is enjoying our predicament.
> "UK Gov weighs up sending in the troops to deliver petrol"



the google translate of that is fantastic




> Prime Minister Boris Johnson appealed to the British not to buy hamsters.


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## klang (Sep 25, 2021)

hamster shortage as well? What fucking next?


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## bimble (Sep 25, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> the google translate of that is fantastic


german is great like that, one word to express stuffing your cheeks with food for later.


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## klang (Sep 25, 2021)

bimble said:


> german is great like that, one word to express stuffing your cheeks with food for later.


I think 'hamstering' washes in English too. I've used it for stockpiling.


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## Yossarian (Sep 25, 2021)

I guess Johnson could spin the fact that it's now harder for British drivers to fuck off and make more money in Germany etc. as a benefit of Brexit.


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## bimble (Sep 25, 2021)

we do have squirrelling away, but that sounds a bit more relaxed.


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## Smangus (Sep 25, 2021)

Fucking hamsters , pervs 🤨


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## klang (Sep 25, 2021)

bimble said:


> squirrelling away


Eichhoerncheneinkaeufe


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## Smangus (Sep 25, 2021)

No one mentioned a sex arse shortage yet?


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## bimble (Sep 25, 2021)

That article i found that says "According to Ministry of Defence sources, troops are being mobilized and sent to fuel depots across the country this weekend" , I can't see it anywhere else. Seems like it should be news tbh if its true.


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## Ax^ (Sep 25, 2021)

don't look it up on urban dictonary




> Hamstering
> A sexual practice which involves being locked away for an extended periods of time and being caressed/played with by the master . who is the so called owner of the hamster.
> Jeff needed some thrills, so he went and found a good owner for some hamstering over the summer. what a way to  spend a holiday!


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## klang (Sep 25, 2021)

what a way to spend a holiday indeed!


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## Ax^ (Sep 25, 2021)

Ponders if that what carrie is doing to Boris everytime he catches covid


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## klang (Sep 25, 2021)




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## QueenOfGoths (Sep 25, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Of course the government fucked it, the forensic analysis goes back to May's red line wibble. So if fingers should be pointed they should go to QueenOfGoths, if she had voted harder May wouldn't have been there. tbf Quoggy shouldn't feel too bad, my mate Liz caused Gulf War II cos she 'had to' wash her hair on the morning of the march and it made us all an hour late...


Sorry


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## Artaxerxes (Sep 25, 2021)

bimble said:


> Fuck it, i hope there are absolutely no turkeys at xmas, and no pigs in blankets either, and maybe even a notable booze shortage, and that it gets blamed on the government and not on covid. Don't want anyone to go hungry obvs but absolutely no bulgarians should come to our rescue at this point to smooth things over for Johnson and co.



Christmas needs slimming down anyway, all that specialty Christmas food shitting up the shelves for two months before it, incessant jingles in every store for three, then it all gets binned the day after. 

I’ll miss hoovering up the bargain panettone on Boxing Day but half of the food in store  goes to waste


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## bimble (Sep 25, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Christmas needs slimming down anyway, all that specialty Christmas food shitting up the shelves for two months before it, incessant jingles in every store for three, then it all gets binned the day after.
> 
> I’ll miss hoovering up the bargain panettone on Boxing Day but half of the food in store  goes to waste


Yeah, they should cancel the whole thing this year, in a special announcement from Boris Johnson, saying that alas we will need to concentrate on making sure all Britons can access essential goods like medicines and fuel and burratas.


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## Artaxerxes (Sep 25, 2021)

bimble said:


> Yeah, they should cancel the whole thing this year, in a special announcement from Boris Johnson, saying that alas we will need to concentrate on making sure all Britons can access essential goods like medicines and fuel and burratas.



Eat proper British grub like star gazey pie and show the Eu we can look after ourselves


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## Smokeandsteam (Sep 25, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Germany was just as reliant on slave labour skills as the UK was. When Covid reared its ugly head the work died up and the skills headed home. As with here they have not returned there either. Germany is upping wages to tempt these skills back, so the UK will need to be significantly more to attract them, given Brexit red tape, the channel crossing, extra distance from home.
> 
> Presenting this, as with most things as a solid consequence of Brexit is wrong, Brexit has a hand in it obviously, but is not the main player here, the relentless barrage of "Oh look what Brexit's done now!" bollocks is not going to have the effect that those peddling it hope for, quite the opposite.



Here is some much needed perspective and detail on the driver shortages. Which are both long run and caused by a multiplicity of factors: of which EU labour is a minor one. The shortfall existed before the 13,000 EU drivers went back home. Even if they returned today the shortages would remain acute. Poland has worse shortages and Germany the same as us. The issue is one of terms and conditions and the treatment of workers: not the end of the free flow of exploitative free movement of labour (no matter how much some pine for its return):









						The real causes of the HGV driver shortage and why we can’t blame it all on Brexit
					

The HGV driver shortage has escalated to crisis point. As multiple theories circulate over the underlying cause, The Grocer has sourced exclusive data to uncover what's really driving the issue




					www.thegrocer.co.uk


----------



## klang (Sep 25, 2021)

bimble said:


> Yeah, they should cancel the whole thing this year, in a special announcement from Boris Johnson,


on the 23rd December.


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## bimble (Sep 25, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Here is some much needed perspective and detail on the driver shortages. Which are both long run and caused by a multiplicity of factors: of which EU labour is a minor one. The shortfall existed before the 13,000 EU drivers went back home. Even if they returned today the shortages would remain acute. Poland has worse shortages and Germany the same as us. The issue is one of terms and conditions and the treatment of workers: not the end of the free flow of exploitative free movement of labour (no matter how much some pine for its return):
> 
> 
> 
> ...


yes. Which makes it even more enjoyable that the government is now about to try and fail to get EU drivers back to save our arses, instead of announcing a major infrastructure plan to make the job more appealing, like the EU did this week.


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## andysays (Sep 25, 2021)

bimble said:


> Yeah, they should cancel the whole thing this year, in a special announcement from Boris Johnson, saying that alas we will need to concentrate on making sure all Britons can access essential goods like medicines and fuel and burratas.


Either that or go back to the true meaning of Christmas, waking up in a drafty stable and having to wait another two weeks for three blokes from the east to finally deliver some presents...


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## bimble (Sep 25, 2021)

bollocks. they're doing the temp visas for turkey processors as well as lorry drivers.

'Up to 5,000 temporary visas could be granted for HGV drivers, it has been reported, while the FT said a similar number would be approved for food processing workers, especially in the poultry industry..'









						Short-term UK visa scheme expected to tackle Christmas delivery disruption
					

Industry figures express frustration and relief over plan to relieve UK’s lorry driver shortage




					www.theguardian.com


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## TopCat (Sep 25, 2021)

Scaffold lorry drivers at Trad (London firm) got their wages doubled in the last month. £55,000 flat PA. Fucking ace. Its dragging up the wages of the scaffs too.


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## TopCat (Sep 25, 2021)

bimble said:


> bollocks. they're doing the temp visas for turkey processors as well as lorry drivers.
> 
> 'Up to 5,000 temporary visas could be granted for HGV drivers, it has been reported, while the FT said a similar number would be approved for food processing workers, especially in the poultry industry..'
> 
> ...


Utter nightmare job. Can you realistically think of a worse one?


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Sep 25, 2021)

bimble said:


> yes. Which makes it even more enjoyable that the government is now trying to get EU drivers back to save our arses, instead of announcing a major infrastructure plan to make the job more appealing, like the EU did this week.



It does indeed suggest that the Tories are as clueless as continuity remain. According to that report over 70,000 drivers left the trade during the pandemic: only 12,000 of them EU nationals. It’s the loss of drivers to other parts of the economy, the demographic drain and the failure to tackle employers who’ve failed to invest and train for _years _that needs to be tackled (not that you’d know it from this thread). Fortunately, workers and their unions are acting to address these issues and to bring pay and terms and conditions into the 21st century.


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## bimble (Sep 25, 2021)

The average age of a driver in uk is 57 i read. This issue is not going to get sorted anytime soon.


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## TopCat (Sep 25, 2021)

The issue is the just in time model. Its been stressed by covid, brexit etc at a time when it was already stretched.


----------



## Ax^ (Sep 25, 2021)

this governement is going to pay to train and invest in the workforce


they just removed a 20 quid payment from universal credit

and are talking about removing  tacho breaks and dragging down the skill level required for existing workers

fair play to the unions but good luck with this government


----------



## bimble (Sep 25, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Utter nightmare job. Can you realistically think of a worse one?


Thats the thing, its also highly skilled, you need to choose to learn the trade. I don't know how high wages would have to get for significant amounts of people in the UK  to think I want to be a meat processor when i grow up, but really quite high.
And our chicken in the supermarkets is ridiculously cheap, imo, but then i could afford to pay more & not everyone could.


----------



## andysays (Sep 25, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Scaffold lorry drivers at Trad (London firm) got their wages doubled in the last month. £55,000 flat PA. Fucking ace. Its dragging up the wages of the scaffs too.


I remember talking to a scaffold lorry driver at the beginning of Covid when all their work was drying up - he was asking if the Council were taking on drivers for the bin lorries.

What a difference 18 months makes...


----------



## TopCat (Sep 25, 2021)

I am concerned that this will all get worse. Not in the sense of a lack of 8 choices of orange juice and certainly not private car fuel but more medicines and staple food.


----------



## Ax^ (Sep 25, 2021)

look into the work visa story 


it 5k visa to deal with food supply problems and drivers

we need more than 5k drivers 

so imagine the lack of people in the food processing sector


----------



## A380 (Sep 25, 2021)

bimble said:


> hahaha.
> 
> "According to Ministry of Defence sources, troops are being mobilized and sent to fuel depots across the country this weekend in an effort to resolve the fuel supply problems. "..
> 
> ...


Yep BEIS does fuel and oil both up and down stream. Sounds like another Shapps fuck up.


----------



## TopCat (Sep 25, 2021)

andysays said:


> I remember talking to a scaffold lorry driver at the beginning of Covid when all their work was drying up - he was asking if the Council were taking on drivers for the bin lorries.
> 
> What a difference 18 months makes...


Trad are a good firm. They furloughed all the staff and shut down. Paid them proper. It was the longest break my best mate has has since he left school at fifteen. They also have one of the smallest levels of stock shrinkage ion London. Wonder why?


----------



## TopCat (Sep 25, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> look into the work visa story
> 
> 
> it 5k visa to deal with food supply problems and drivers
> ...


Its just to protect Boris sorry Johnson from negative headlines not to really do anything.


----------



## bimble (Sep 25, 2021)

TopCat said:


> I am concerned that this will all get worse. Not in the sense of a lack of 8 choices of orange juice and certainly not private car fuel but more medicines and staple food.


Yes. Short term it could potentially get scary and people are clearly freaking out about petrol .
I assume that’s why government has suddenly caved after 3 months and announced the temp visas thing (and are apparently about to mobilise the army).


----------



## TopCat (Sep 25, 2021)

bimble said:


> Yes. Short term it could potentially get scary and people are clearly freaking out about petrol .
> I assume that’s why government has suddenly caved after 3 months and announced the temp visas thing (and are apparently about to mobilise the army).


The temp visa thing is not just like turning on a tap. Many of my east euro pals and colleagues were gutted to be stuck here during lockdown. They saved their pennies and went home when they could. Reportedly things are brighter in Poland money wise but deffo not in Romania.


----------



## bimble (Sep 25, 2021)

TopCat said:


> The temp visa thing is not just like turning on a tap. Many of my east euro pals and colleagues were gutted to be stuck here during lockdown. They saved their pennies and went home when they could. Reportedly things are brighter in Poland money wise but deffo not in Romania.


yep i don't think they're coming back here. Army it is then, until newly qualified drivers next year.


----------



## andysays (Sep 25, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Trad are a good firm. They furloughed all the staff and shut down. Paid them proper. It was the longest break my best mate has has since he left school at fifteen. They also have one of the smallest levels of stock shrinkage ion London. Wonder why?


My recollection is that this conversation happened in the very early days, when no one knew what was going to happen, before furlough was a thing.

There was also speculation that if lots of people from the waste went sick, they would need to recruit more HGV drivers, and people from my department, grounds maintenance, would get brought in to keep that service running. Fortunately it never came to that.

Some people on this thread would probably have suggested they should have just recruited more drivers from poorer EU states...


----------



## andysays (Sep 25, 2021)

TopCat said:


> The temp visa thing is not just like turning on a tap. Many of my east euro pals and colleagues were gutted to be stuck here during lockdown. They saved their pennies and went home when they could. Reportedly things are brighter in Poland money wise but deffo not in Romania.


Nah, they're only "skills" not people


----------



## Ax^ (Sep 25, 2021)

andysays said:


> Some people on this thread would probably have suggested they should have just recruited more drivers from poorer EU states...




other people on this thread would have suggested the government subsidise the unemployed to retrain in the hope of find gainful employment

rather than demonising them and treating them like second class citizen whilst fucking off european workers

and calling it a win


fuck me they have spent the last few months going once we get thouse lazy stay at home fuckers off furlough we have a  bunch of  desperate people looking for work
it will sort itself out

guess what its not working and this is the start


----------



## TopCat (Sep 25, 2021)

The British had a way to introduce labour security to significant projects. Indentured labour. Legalised slavery.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Sep 25, 2021)

Excellent read from Private Eye on the truth behind the driver shortages at Tesco. Surprise, surprise, it’s got nothing to do with Brexit.

But of course capital, and it’s increasingly hysterical cheerleaders, must blame it. Otherwise, they’d need to blame themselves…


----------



## Supine (Sep 25, 2021)

TopCat said:


> The British had a way to introduce labour security to significant projects. Indentured labour. Legalised slavery.



You probably need to put the spliff down at this point


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Sep 25, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Tbf people who buy bottled water can go fuck themselves.


If it's a particularly hot day and I need water then I will buy a nice cheap bottle of chilled water from the supermarket.

Would be weird not to really.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Sep 25, 2021)

Count Cuckula said:


> If it's a particularly hot day and I need water then I will buy a nice cheap bottle of chilled water from the supermarket.
> 
> Would be weird not to really.




Glad we have that sorted.


----------



## Ax^ (Sep 25, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Excellent read from Private Eye on the truth behind the driver shortages at Tesco. Surprise, surprise, it’s got nothing to do with Brexit.
> 
> But of course capital, and it’s increasingly hysterical cheerleaders, must blame it. Otherwise, they’d need to blame themselves…




so nothing to do with brexit, just the party in charge who premoted the idea for decades

well fuck me you enlighted me on why the torys are Bastards

with private eye no less


----------



## Ax^ (Sep 25, 2021)

they say remainers are dreamers


at least we are not watching our plans go to shit and going well if it was not for covid

we could of forced the unemployed to drive trucks and kill livestock


----------



## MrSki (Sep 25, 2021)

The HGV shortage is nothing to do with Brexit but to sort out the HGV shortage they will reverse the Brexit policies that haven't led to the shortage.   

What a load of bollocks.


----------



## Supine (Sep 25, 2021)

MrSki said:


> What a load of bollocks.



Brexit in a nut shell


----------



## Supine (Sep 25, 2021)

And now medicine shortages because some people didn’t like foreigners living here









						Driver shortage: Now pharmacies complain medicine deliveries are being delayed
					

Pharmacies are facing shortages of medicine deliveries due to the shortage of supply chain drivers – as the UK already grapples with widespread fuel disruptions.




					www.lbc.co.uk


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 26, 2021)

Supine said:


> And now medicine shortages because some people didn’t like foreigners living here
> 
> 
> 
> ...



What's Brexit got to do with foreigners?


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 26, 2021)

MrSki said:


> The HGV shortage is nothing to do with Brexit but to sort out the HGV shortage they will reverse the Brexit policies that haven't led to the shortage.
> 
> What a load of bollocks.



Everything's fine. There are no shortages. 

And even if there were actual shortages, well, there's always been shortages.


----------



## Badgers (Sep 26, 2021)

__





						Boris Johnson asked for ‘emergency’ food deal, says Bolsonaro | Supply chain crisis | The Guardian
					






					amp-theguardian-com.cdn.ampproject.org
				






> The Brazilian president, Jair Bolsonaro, has claimed Boris Johnson asked him for an “emergency” deal to ease shortages of an unspecified food product, amid concerns about further disruption to supermarket supplies.
> 
> A lack of drivers and food pickers, as well as carbon dioxide used to stun animals for slaughter and create dry ice to keep food fresh, has led to fears that some goods will be missing from shelves in the run-up to Christmas.



Both cunts and liars but this would not surprise


----------



## bimble (Sep 26, 2021)

Thinking about this again, where he says the quiet part out loud about a hard brexit being about saving the Tory party.
 It feels like finally now they are not getting away with blaming covid or the EU for the whole shitshow.


----------



## TopCat (Sep 26, 2021)

Supine said:


> And now medicine shortages because some people didn’t like foreigners living here
> 
> 
> 
> ...


your dickhead is showing love.


----------



## Badgers (Sep 26, 2021)

I bet those EU drivers are rushing to save the British Christmas as we type. 

Meanwhile, here are some EU drivers last Christmas.


----------



## TopCat (Sep 26, 2021)

Badgers said:


> I bet those EU drivers are rushing to save the British Christmas as we type.
> 
> Meanwhile, here are some EU drivers last Christmas.
> 
> View attachment 290184


You would not forget that in a hurry. Hundreds all shitting in a bag.


----------



## Supine (Sep 26, 2021)

TopCat said:


> your dickhead is showing love.



You ok hun?


----------



## Badgers (Sep 26, 2021)

TopCat said:


> You would not forget that in a hurry. Hundreds all shitting in a bag.


Yup 

The Leave campaign and our Disgraced Prime Minister de Pfeffel Johnson lied about why we were leaving. 

Now their solution is to allow EU workers back to 'save Christmas' but they are not going to come bar a few. This is after 5 years of planning time and info from the affected industries etc. 

So what is the solution to the fucked up mess the liars and #ToryScum have caused? Banging on about a fraction of the UK workforce getting a payrise is not something to cheer about (must as it is well deserved) so ideas?


----------



## Badgers (Sep 26, 2021)

Not sure if true but nothing surprising if so...


----------



## Tankus (Sep 26, 2021)

So  staggered Power cuts are on the cards this winter ?

No gas reserves   ,and restricted supply along with big utilities  going bust.


----------



## Badgers (Sep 26, 2021)

Tankus said:


> So  staggered Power cuts are on the cards this winter ?
> 
> No gas reserves   ,and restricted supply along with big utilities  going bust.


#worldbeating


----------



## Badgers (Sep 26, 2021)

Lorry drivers came and went between the UK and the EU as required. 

They were never imported cheap labour. 

They were part of a flexible EU workforce.

Thanks to Brexit we've now lost that flexibility.


----------



## bimble (Sep 26, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Not sure if true but nothing surprising if so...



It’s unnecessary to make jokes like that about it, the facts are enough. The temporary visas are to run until Xmas eve . These people are expected to come here and work then travel home to their families on Xmas day?


----------



## Badgers (Sep 26, 2021)

bimble said:


> It’s unnecessary to make jokes like that about it, the facts are enough. The temporary visas are to run until Xmas eve . These people are expected to come here and work then travel home to their families on Xmas day?


This Disgraced Government is a joke. A cruel, selfish and greedy joke sadly.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Sep 26, 2021)

Supine said:


> And now medicine shortages because some people didn’t like foreigners living here
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Personally, if I don't have my supply of Haloperidol (an anti-psychotic) then I get very ill indeed and am no good to myself or anyone else. I'm also dependent on other medications, and stoma supplies. There will be many others out there in the same boat. This is very disturbing.


----------



## bimble (Sep 26, 2021)

It’s a bit mind blowing that they really are making these temporary visas so they end on Xmas eve. 
What the fuck do they imagine that these 10,000 people will do to get home, having rushed back here and ‘saved Christmas’ for us, to avoid overstaying their visas and turning pumpkinlike into illegal immigrants. Bunch of idiots.


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 26, 2021)

Those brave few who choose to drive lorries for global Britain know the risks they are taking. They do it for a greater good.


----------



## bimble (Sep 26, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> Those brave few who choose to drive lorries for global Britain know the risks they are taking. They do it for a greater good.


There should at least be a statue of a noble Bulgarian truck driver to commemorate their sacrifices in our hour of need. Least we could do.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 26, 2021)

bimble said:


> There should at least be a statue of a noble Bulgarian truck driver to commemorate their sacrifices in our hour of need. Least we could do.


A statue of the unknown truck driver is being unveiled next week at the scratchwood services, now London gateway services


----------



## Badgers (Sep 26, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> A statue of the unknown truck driver is being unveiled next week at the scratchwood services, now London gateway services


The Brexit gammons will pull it down


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Sep 26, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Lorry drivers came and went between the UK and the EU as required.
> 
> They were never imported cheap labour.
> 
> ...



The argument that there was an army of EU HGV drivers bringing the ungrateful Brits fuel and food does seem to be a popular one in some quarters. But it’s been massively overblown (I’ll leave others to ponder on whose been doing the overblowing and why).

The reasons for labour shortages are retirement/leaving the industry, testing requirements/safety rules promoting retirements or people leaving the industry and the postponement of testing bringing new drivers into the sector due to covid. According to the article I posted above those factors combined have created a net loss of around 78,000 jobs. Did brexit had an effect? Yes, 12,700 jobs once filled now aren’t. So it’s added to the problem rather than caused it

As for the terms and conditions of EU drivers I’d be interested to see any research or data that shows a level playing field in T&C’s. What is beyond doubt however is that the massive outsourcing and diminution of pay and conditions across the sector over the past decade or longer lies at the heart of the entire matter and is directly causing the crisis.

But I guess the wider point is this: Sooner or later you have to choose who you blame for society’s problems - the boss class, or the working class whose vote you didn’t like.


----------



## Badgers (Sep 26, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> The argument that there was an army of EU HGV drivers bringing the ungrateful Brits fuel and food does seem to be a popular one in some quarters. But it’s been massively overblown (I’ll leave others to ponder on whose been doing the overblowing and why).
> 
> The reasons for labour shortages are retirement/leaving the industry, testing requirements/safety rules promoting retirements or people leaving the industry and the postponement of testing bringing new drivers into the sector due to covid. According to the article I posted above those factors combined have created a net loss of around 78,000 jobs. Did brexit had an effect? Yes, 12,700 jobs ince dipped now aren’t.
> 
> ...


I blame the #ToryScum for initiating and fulfilling this farce whilst getting rich on the side. 

Is that clear?


----------



## Ax^ (Sep 26, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> The argument that there was an army of EU HGV drivers bringing the ungrateful Brits fuel and food does seem to be a popular one in some quarters. But it’s been massively overblown (I’ll leave others to ponder on whose been doing the overblowing and why).
> 
> The reasons for labour shortages are retirement/leaving the industry, testing requirements/safety rules promoting retirements or people leaving the industry and the postponement of testing bringing new drivers into the sector due to covid. According to the article I posted above those factors combined have created a net loss of around 78,000 jobs. Did brexit had an effect? Yes, 12,700 jobs once filled now aren’t. So it’s added to the problem rather than caused it
> 
> ...



can we just blame the fucking Torys


----------



## TopCat (Sep 26, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Yup
> 
> The Leave campaign and our Disgraced Prime Minister de Pfeffel Johnson lied about why we were leaving.
> 
> ...


It’s not Armageddon mate. More HGV tests will be done, more training, a bit more remainers pointing to a lack of organic orange juice (not from concentrate) with bits in Waitrose.


----------



## TopCat (Sep 26, 2021)

My Nan would be laughing.


----------



## Badgers (Sep 26, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> can we just blame the fucking Torys


They are the cancer eating away all that is decent


----------



## Badgers (Sep 26, 2021)

TopCat said:


> It’s not Armageddon mate. More HGV tests will be done, more training, a bit more remainers pointing to a lack of organic orange juice (not from concentrate) with bits in Waitrose.


Should be good in 5 years then? 

Our beshitted government has already had 5 years to deal with this. You honestly think it will get sorted?

 

At least the scaffold trucks had a payrise eh? Much more important than the NHS, education, care sector and many many other disgraces we are dealing with?


----------



## Badgers (Sep 26, 2021)

TopCat given you and me have both had cancer do you think orange juice is the issue here?


----------



## Badgers (Sep 26, 2021)

If people voted for Brexit then have at it. But if you can honestly say that  #ToryScum government could deliver anything other than a fucking farce then fuck you. 

Everything they touch turns to shit and misery. Even if I wanted this racist, blitz spirit farce I would not have voted for it with a #ToryScum government.


----------



## Raheem (Sep 26, 2021)

I don't know about Waitrose, but it seems cartons of fruit juice have been completely absent from a lot of Morrisons for at least a couple of weeks. In mine, you can still get Ocean Spray and tomato juice, though. Which goes to show that, even in difficult times, people will only stoop so low.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Sep 26, 2021)

Anti-Toryism doesn't go far enough at all. It is shallow. The real problem is capitalism itself, not just the tories.


----------



## bimble (Sep 26, 2021)

Good. Turkey shortage bring it on.








						Bleak Christmas: turkeys, trees and toys under threat from labour shortage, suppliers say
					

Government steps to remedy lack of food processors and drivers are ‘thimble of water on a bonfire’, industry experts say




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 26, 2021)

bimble said:


> Good. Turkey shortage bring it on.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Perhaps we could return to the pre-turkey xmas favourite of goose





						The Adventure of the Blue Carbuncle (The Strand Magazine) - Wikisource, the free online library
					






					en.m.wikisource.org


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 26, 2021)

Raheem said:


> I don't know about Waitrose, but it seems cartons of fruit juice have been completely absent from a lot of Morrisons for at least a couple of weeks. In mine, you can still get Ocean Spray and tomato juice, though. Which goes to show that, even in difficult times, people will only stoop so low.


Always good to take a child for those awkward bottom shelves


----------



## bimble (Sep 26, 2021)

We should eat more pigeons.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 26, 2021)

Badgers said:


> If people voted for Brexit then have at it. But if you can honestly say that  #ToryScum government could deliver anything other than a fucking farce then fuck you.
> 
> Everything they touch turns to shit and misery. Even if I wanted this racist, blitz spirit farce I would not have voted for it with a #ToryScum government.


This isn't a farce. It's a tragedy.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 26, 2021)

bimble said:


> We should eat more pigeons.


You've been watching too much master chef


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Sep 26, 2021)

bimble said:


> Good. Turkey shortage bring it on.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I would much rather a juicy rib-roast at Christmas, might do one one the side this year.


----------



## gosub (Sep 26, 2021)

TopCat said:


> It’s not Armageddon mate. More HGV tests will be done, more training, a bit more remainers pointing to a lack of organic orange juice (not from concentrate) with bits in Waitrose.


 
Trying to get home via Waterloo round midnight last night Not so sure , Country is pretty shambolic and tempers frayed.
As much I agree with 'oh well no orange juice" (not something I've actually encounter any problem getting) in general things are beyond ropey

It's going to be a tough winter


----------



## bimble (Sep 26, 2021)

TopCat said:


> It’s not Armageddon mate. More HGV tests will be done, more training, a bit more remainers pointing to a lack of organic orange juice (not from concentrate) with bits in Waitrose.


You’re much chirpier than yesterday, that’s nice.


TopCat said:


> I am concerned that this will all get worse. Not in the sense of a lack of 8 choices of orange juice and certainly not private car fuel but more medicines and staple food.


----------



## MrSki (Sep 26, 2021)

Seems the turkeys voted against Christmas.


----------



## bimble (Sep 26, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> You've been watching too much master chef


I have never watched that show but, I ate a pigeon for the first time last year, that my neighbour shot, it was a bit chewy but quite nice. Even Londoners could feast on them too.


----------



## TopCat (Sep 26, 2021)

bimble said:


> You’re much chirpier than yesterday, that’s nice.


Yeah if more dickheads panic buy all the fuel, a new variant comes along with a huge hike in energy prices. I guess we are talking about different things. The food shortages wont cause hunger.


----------



## TopCat (Sep 26, 2021)

gosub said:


> Trying to get home via Waterloo round midnight last night Not so sure , Country is pretty shambolic and tempers frayed.
> As much I agree with 'oh well no orange juice" (not something I've actually encounter any problem getting) in general things are beyond ropey
> 
> It's going to be a tough winter


What happened on your journey home?


----------



## bimble (Sep 26, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Yeah if more dickheads panic buy all the fuel, a new variant comes along with a huge hike in energy prices. I guess we are talking about different things. The food shortages wont cause hunger.


Yesterday you were worried about access to medicines & staple foods but today you’re not. I am in a good mood today too. I do think it’s going to be a bit shit this winter, possibly even worse than last winter, but not zombie apocalypse level shit.


----------



## TopCat (Sep 26, 2021)

bimble said:


> Yesterday you were worried about access to medicines & staple foods but today you’re not. I am in a good mood today too. I do think it’s going to be a bit shit this winter, possibly even worse than last winter, but not zombie apocalypse level shit.


My concerns, though real and present are not really linked to this current set of shortages.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 26, 2021)

bimble said:


> Yesterday you were worried about access to medicines & staple foods but today you’re not. I am in a good mood today too. I do think it’s going to be a bit shit this winter, possibly even worse than last winter, but not zombie apocalypse level shit.


You underestimate Boris Johnson at your peril


----------



## ska invita (Sep 26, 2021)

TopCat said:


> The food shortages wont cause hunger.


They will when prices go up


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 26, 2021)

Utterly amazing that we have a global supply chain whose principle aim is to provide cheap food to those on low incomes .


----------



## TopCat (Sep 26, 2021)

ska invita said:


> They will when prices go up


Prices are going up because of shortages? not because of profit?


----------



## bimble (Sep 26, 2021)

Stupid argument imo, total waste of time saying ‘well prices wouldn’t go up this winter if we didn’t live under a capitalist system / if all those businesses just stopped being mean and profit driven’. Might make you feel better, but pointless.


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Sep 26, 2021)

bimble said:


> Stupid argument imo, total waste of time saying ‘well prices wouldn’t go up this winter if we didn’t live under a capitalist system / if all those businesses just stopped being mean and profit driven’. Might make you feel better, but pointless.


I mean blaming leave voters for prices going up isn't just pointless, it is kind of harmful as it should go without saying that voters aren't the ones with the power here. If you don't think we should be pointing the finger at the enemy where should we be pointing it?


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 26, 2021)

HoratioCuthbert said:


> I mean blaming leave voters for prices going up isn't just pointless, it is kind of harmful as it should go without saying that voters aren't the ones with the power here. If you don't think we should be pointing the finger at the enemy where should we be pointing it?


Always good to see you posting


----------



## bimble (Sep 26, 2021)

HoratioCuthbert said:


> I mean blaming leave voters for prices going up isn't just pointless, it is kind of harmful as it should go without saying that voters aren't the ones with the power here. If you don't think we should be pointing the finger at the enemy where should we be pointing it?


At the bloody government who have it seems not thought even one step ahead at any point, and bungled the whole thing to such a degree that it potentially will get serious.
I mean you can blame capitalism / supermarkets /  farmers / transport company bosses etc etc etc if you like but I just don’t see the point of doing that.


----------



## bimble (Sep 26, 2021)

Whose fault is this for instance








						UK pharmacies in dark about ministers’ plan to maintain drug supplies
					

Chemists wait for details of measures to ensure driver shortages do not adversely affect deliveries of prescription drugs




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 26, 2021)

HoratioCuthbert said:


> I mean blaming leave voters for prices going up isn't just pointless, it is kind of harmful as it should go without saying that voters aren't the ones with the power here. If you don't think we should be pointing the finger at the enemy where should we be pointing it?


Far too sensible post for many on this thread


----------



## Supine (Sep 26, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Prices are going up because of shortages? not because of profit?



Prices are going up due to increased costs.  Certainly with food supply the profit margins are small as it’s so competitive. The big players make lots of money only because they sell so much stuff.


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Sep 26, 2021)

bimble said:


> At the bloody government who have it seems not thought even one step ahead at any point, and bungled the whole thing to such a degree that it potentially will get serious.
> I mean you can blame capitalism / supermarkets /  farmers / transport company bosses etc etc etc if you like but I just don’t see the point of doing that.


Fair enough Bimble, I have been struggling with this thread a lot but I do see you are trying to navigate shit same as the rest of us


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Sep 26, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Always good to see you posting


Cheers, kind of you to say so


----------



## bimble (Sep 26, 2021)

June last year, when covid was in full swing, remember how the gov chose to push ahead and not extend the transition period, sod the pandemic carry on, if they’d just done that one thing differently even that would probably have helped, or maybe it would have made it harder to blame everything on covid as they’ve tried so hard to do.


----------



## ska invita (Sep 26, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Prices are going up because of shortages? not because of profit?


Welcome to a market economy


----------



## Badgers (Sep 26, 2021)




----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 26, 2021)

bimble said:


> June last year, when covid was in full swing, remember how the gov chose to push ahead and not extend the transition period, sod the pandemic carry on, if they’d just done that one thing differently even that would probably have helped, or maybe it would have made it harder to blame everything on covid as they’ve tried so hard to do.


Probably would have helped how? Do you think they'd have had the stomach to repeal 15a out of the exit legislation?


----------



## gosub (Sep 26, 2021)

TopCat said:


> What happened on your journey home?


The 50 minute lead time in Brger King (which lead quire a few arguements) put on the last train to Bournemouth ..only engineering works meant it only went to Guildford...Ten coach train only one rail replacement bus , several fights . Ended up sharing taxi


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Sep 26, 2021)

gosub said:


> only one rail replacement bus



I am hearing from some quarters that bus operators are having difficulty providing drivers for weekend rail replacement buses at the moment.

since this is not regular work, rail replacement work is usually done by drivers working a rest day, or casual drivers who have other jobs (either within bus company or elsewhere) during the week, and there's starting to be a shortage of bus drivers as well (similar factors to goods vehicle drivers - some EU drivers 'going home', covid related shutdown of driver training / testing, then drivers who have HGV licence as well going back on to HGV work, some drivers leaving to do van driving) and bus operators are giving priority to keeping their regular routes going...


----------



## Cloo (Sep 26, 2021)

The Express, I see, is blithely declaring that Christmas is saved because with the visas issued, of course all those HGV drivers we told to fuck off last year will quickly sign on to return to a crisis-striken plague island.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Sep 26, 2021)

Cloo said:


> of course all those HGV drivers we told to fuck off last year will quickly sign on to return to a crisis-striken plague island.



... and be deported on xmas eve


----------



## Cerv (Sep 26, 2021)

Might as well start a pool now on picking what date they’ll announce that the the visa allowance will be extended beyond 24/12. 

I’m taking 23/12


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 26, 2021)

5 more years


----------



## bimble (Sep 27, 2021)

the DM of all places is doing a story saying that the reason for the massive queues at Heathrow airport are because, since August,  Border Force guards have been put on 12 and a half hour shifts, because there are not enough of them, and as a result they are getting sick from exhaustion and so there are even fewer border officers to control our borders.

eta just had a look and there are hundreds of job ads for Border Force officer, all over the country.


----------



## andysays (Sep 27, 2021)

bimble said:


> the DM of all places is doing a story saying that the reason for the massive queues at Heathrow airport are because, since August,  Border Force guards have been put on 12 and a half hour shifts, because there are not enough of them, and as a result they are getting sick from exhaustion and so there are even fewer border officers to control our borders.


Why can't they just recruit more border guards from somewhere in the EU?


----------



## Badgers (Sep 27, 2021)

andysays said:


> Why can't they just recruit more border guards from somewhere in the EU?


They have had 5 years to prepare. 

Brexit based on lies and a lying, incompetent government is what people wanted it seems.


----------



## bimble (Sep 27, 2021)

andysays said:


> Why can't they just recruit more border guards from somewhere in the EU?


I don't think this is that (don't think there were hundreds of EU people manning our borders) but idk.  Just seems a really obvious one to maybe have tried to plan ahead for over the last 6 years, controlling our borders being part of the whole project & much more work to do once free movement ended obvs.
Maybe they did try but just nobody wants to do it.

I don't want to do it. "These roles can be demanding. If successful you will be required to complete and pass specialist training including Personal Safety Training (PST) which develops skills in personal safety, arrest, control and restraint techniques. ."

eta all the job ads seem to say 'you must be a UK national'.


----------



## Yossarian (Sep 27, 2021)

bimble said:


> Just seems a really obvious one to maybe have tried to plan ahead for over the last 6 years, controlling our borders being part of the whole project & much more work to do once free movement ended obvs.
> Maybe they did try but just nobody wants to do it.



Maybe they should rebrand the role as Brexit Enforcer or Taker Back of Control.


----------



## bimble (Sep 27, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> Maybe they should rebrand the role as Brexit Enforcer or Taker Back of Control.


It’s true, maybe they should advertise the roles in places like the DM, buying spots next to the stories about Armadas of immigrants on the Kent beaches etc. 
I’m surprised there’s so many vacancies tbh.


----------



## klang (Sep 27, 2021)

bimble said:


> I’m surprised there’s so many vacancies tbh.


...and airports are still not operating at full capacity.


----------



## Badgers (Sep 27, 2021)

Nah... 

Lairy Fascists needed


----------



## Badgers (Sep 27, 2021)

klang said:


> ...and airports are still not operating at full capacity.


Must be around 50% ish? 

I looked at Eurostar yesterday and was surprised how few trains were running.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Sep 27, 2021)

bimble said:


> I don't think this is that (don't think there were hundreds of EU people manning our borders) but idk.  Just seems a really obvious one to maybe have tried to plan ahead for over the last 6 years, controlling our borders being part of the whole project & much more work to do once free movement ended obvs.
> Maybe they did try but just nobody wants to do it.
> 
> I don't want to do it. "These roles can be demanding. If successful you will be required to complete and pass specialist training including Personal Safety Training (PST) which develops skills in personal safety, arrest, control and restraint techniques. ."
> ...




I was fairly rude to one in August, having had to queue over an hour I slapped the passports down on the desk and the surly fucker says, “Quite forceful there, sir.” 
I stare hard at him and Frau Bahn (who had already intervened in a fist fight between two women behind us) says, “Just ignore the twat.”

Welcome to the U.K.


----------



## klang (Sep 27, 2021)

did he ignore you in the end?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Sep 27, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Must be around 50% ish?
> 
> I looked at Eurostar yesterday and was surprised how few trains were running.



A lot more than there were, mostly one a day for the past year, now most days has six each way for Paris, still only two for Brussels though.


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 27, 2021)

Puddy_Tat said:


> ... and be deported on xmas eve



The spirit of Christmas is alive and well, after all.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Sep 27, 2021)

klang said:


> did he ignore you in the end?



He wisely wound his neck in. Then as we sauntered off one of the fighting women arrived at his desk and loudly said “Take that fucking smirk off your face sunshine!”

It was all good natured. Especially the moment one of them suggested that those with kids leave them in the queue and use the e-gates and meet up with the kids later. That soothed tempers…


----------



## two sheds (Sep 27, 2021)

Not something you want to try at US customs.


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 27, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Not something you want to try at US customs.



Quite intimidating. (As was HK.)


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Sep 27, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Not something you want to try at US customs.




Everyone says that, never had any issues myself there and was once very rude to one in San Francisco, made me realise that I should give up smoking.


----------



## andysays (Sep 27, 2021)

bimble said:


> I don't think this is that (don't think there were hundreds of EU people manning our borders) but idk.  Just seems a really obvious one to maybe have tried to plan ahead for over the last 6 years, controlling our borders being part of the whole project & much more work to do once free movement ended obvs.
> Maybe they did try but just nobody wants to do it.
> 
> I don't want to do it. "These roles can be demanding. If successful you will be required to complete and pass specialist training including Personal Safety Training (PST) which develops skills in personal safety, arrest, control and restraint techniques. ."
> ...


It wasn't a serious suggestion, it was a joke at the expense of those whose suggested answer to supposed shortages of people to do various jobs is simply to bring workers in from EU countries where labour is cheaper.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 27, 2021)

andysays said:


> It wasn't a serious suggestion, it was a joke at the expense of those whose suggested answer to supposed shortages of people to do various jobs is simply to bring workers in from EU countries where labour is cheaper.


 there's at least140 non-eu countries where labour is cheaper


----------



## dessiato (Sep 27, 2021)

bimble said:


> We should eat more pigeons.


I would. They’re tasty


----------



## bimble (Sep 27, 2021)

Johnson having to add Border Force Officers to the ‘shortage occupations list’ would be great.


----------



## philosophical (Sep 27, 2021)

Media abroad have particularly picked up on the fuel story and the notion that hated (by brexit voters) foreigners are being asked to return to help those who hate them, as long as they fuck off by Christmas.
Those who voted leave must be especially proud of this outcome they deliberately called on.
Mendacious cunts in my opinion, but winning mendacious cunts.


----------



## bimble (Sep 27, 2021)




----------



## Smokeandsteam (Sep 27, 2021)

bimble said:


> Johnson having to add Border Force Officers to the ‘shortage occupations list’ would be great.



Isn’t the shortage of Border Force workers due to the massive cuts to the civil service made by successive new labour and Tory governments?


----------



## TopCat (Sep 27, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Isn’t the shortage of Border Force workers due to the massive cuts to the civil service made by successive new labour and Tory governments?


Who would have thought it. 

It would have been sensible to get recruiting customs and border force officers five years ago.


----------



## two sheds (Sep 27, 2021)

Perhaps we could divert some of those 50,000 border staff jobs we were urgently creating, job done 









						UK races to find extra 50,000 staff for post-Brexit paperwork
					

New recruits needed to process millions of extra declaration forms from 1 January 2021




					www.theguardian.com
				




ah


----------



## bimble (Sep 27, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Isn’t the shortage of Border Force workers due to the massive cuts to the civil service made by successive new labour and Tory governments?


We do need a hell of a lot more of them now than we did before. To control our borders.


----------



## Badgers (Sep 27, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Who would have thought it.
> 
> It would have been sensible to get recruiting customs and border force officers five years ago.


Our Disgraced Government were too busy making money for themselves and their mates to worry.


----------



## philosophical (Sep 27, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Who would have thought it.
> 
> It would have been sensible to get recruiting customs and border force officers five years ago.


Yeah. For the land border in Ireland you voted for eh?


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 27, 2021)

Good news boppers.....





			https://www.trueandfair.uk/index


----------



## Raheem (Sep 27, 2021)

That last one with Chuka Umunna spent ages agonising over what would be a really good name, so it's refreshing that Gina Miller has decided not to do that.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 27, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Good news boppers.....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Yossarian (Sep 27, 2021)

Looks like a brand of detergent.


----------



## bimble (Sep 27, 2021)

That odd story a few days ago about Johnson asking Bolsonaro for help with some undisclosed food item. It was turkeys wasn’t it.


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 27, 2021)

Torresmo- it's like pork scratchings


----------



## Artaxerxes (Sep 27, 2021)

bimble said:


> That odd story a few days ago about Johnson asking Bolsonaro for help with some undisclosed food item. It was turkeys wasn’t it.



Mystery Meat, good to eat, tastes like feet, serves up a treat.


----------



## TopCat (Sep 27, 2021)

Raheem said:


> That last one with Chuka Umunna spent ages agonising over what would be a really good name, so it's refreshing that Gina Miller has decided not to do that.


I bet they debated true and fair vs fair and true for several bottles.


----------



## Supine (Sep 27, 2021)

TopCat said:


> I bet they debated true and fair vs fair and true for several bottles.



Bottles of something strong!


----------



## Lurdan (Sep 27, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Mystery Meat, good to eat, tastes like feet, serves up a treat.


I read the death rate has been higher in the UK, but the population of Brazil is over three times larger, so they probably have a surplus they could let us have.


----------



## gosub (Sep 27, 2021)

Lurdan said:


> I read the death rate has been higher in the UK, but the population of Brazil is over three times larger, so they probably have a surplus they could let us have.











						Mortality Analyses - Johns Hopkins Coronavirus Resource Center
					

How does mortality differ across countries? Examining the number of deaths per confirmed case and per 100,000 population. A global comparison.




					coronavirus.jhu.edu
				




Our stats are starting to look more respectable globally, getting hit at the beginning of the learning curve skewed it a bit


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Sep 27, 2021)

Wasn't exactly sure where to post this but it is relevent to this thread. Don't know much about the Scotsman tbh, but this article does go into some detail about the HGV driver shortage in Europe - though doesn't seem to explain why they are not having shortages there like we are:









						Is there a lorry driver shortage in Europe? What the situation is like across the channel
					

As the UK faces shortages on a range of products due to lack of HGV drivers, is the EU facing similar problems?




					www.scotsman.com


----------



## ska invita (Sep 27, 2021)

Count Cuckula said:


> Though doesn't seem to explain why they are not having shortages there like we are:


Because shortfall is filled by drivers from other countries... As it was in the UK


----------



## Badgers (Sep 28, 2021)

Twenty reasons why there is an HGV driver shortage - part one: 1-10
					

Thousands of people who shop in the UK have probably noticed shortages of products in British supermarkets. The supply problems are blamed on the shortage of HGV drivers and the government is taking steps to tackle it: the driving hours have been extended and there is a talk about bringing the...




					westcountrybylines.co.uk


----------



## not a trot (Sep 28, 2021)

philosophical said:


> Media abroad have particularly picked up on the fuel story and the notion that hated (by brexit voters) foreigners are being asked to return to help those who hate them, as long as they fuck off by Christmas.
> Those who voted leave must be especially proud of this outcome they deliberately called on.
> Mendacious cunts in my opinion, but winning mendacious cunts.



What the fuck have they actually won ?


----------



## philosophical (Sep 28, 2021)

not a trot said:


> What the fuck have they actually won ?


The platform to say 52-48, get over it.


----------



## TopCat (Sep 28, 2021)

The reality of working in a meat plant. Revealed: exploitation of meat plant workers rife across UK and Europe


----------



## Badgers (Sep 28, 2021)

TopCat said:


> The reality of working in a meat plant. Revealed: exploitation of meat plant workers rife across UK and Europe


And the rest of the world is fine?


----------



## bimble (Sep 28, 2021)

please could someone who knows how to use computers access this? Would like to read it but paywalled.




__





						Subscribe to read | Financial Times
					

News, analysis and comment from the Financial Times, the worldʼs leading global business publication




					www.ft.com
				




(this is the bit i can see, which is very much how things look to me too):


----------



## TopCat (Sep 28, 2021)

The Guardian is representing a broad range of opinion today. 








						Care homes are desperately short of staff - why no emergency UK visas for them? | Simon Jenkins
					

The government’s lack of regard for the care sector crisis is clear, says the Guardian columnist Simon Jenkins




					www.theguardian.com
				




Lamenting the lack of Tory commitment to Thatcher’s free markets.


----------



## TopCat (Sep 28, 2021)

Badgers said:


> And the rest of the world is fine?


Solidarity is needed, not more exploitation of poor immigrants.


----------



## Badgers (Sep 28, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Solidarity is needed, not more exploitation of poor immigrants.


The #ToryScum prefer to exploit their own as well as immigrants


----------



## teqniq (Sep 28, 2021)

bimble said:


> please could someone who knows how to use computers access this? Would like to read it but paywalled.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





			https://archive.vn/6wdyL


----------



## Artaxerxes (Sep 28, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Who would have thought it.
> 
> It would have been sensible to get recruiting customs and border force officers five years ago.



And the government and sector was warned 5 years ago about HGV driver shortages.

From a select committee 2016/17


----------



## bimble (Sep 28, 2021)

teqniq said:


> https://archive.vn/6wdyL


thank you. 
Its spot on, imo.


----------



## Badgers (Sep 28, 2021)

bimble said:


> thank you.
> Its spot on, imo.


To be fair they have only had five years since the Brexit based on lies and racism.


----------



## TopCat (Sep 28, 2021)

bimble said:


> thank you.
> Its spot on, imo.


“We cannot point to one historical example in which a temporary labour shortage has been remedied with a temporary labour migration programme, and then employers returned to hiring local workers.” A favourite aphorism of migration experts is that there is nothing so permanent as a temporary migration programme.”


----------



## TopCat (Sep 28, 2021)

“ Earlier this year, when a colleague and I investigated the scheme, we spoke to indebted workers from Russia and Belarus who felt trapped on farms which were not giving them enough work, but whose recruitment agencies would not agree to move them to a different employer.”


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 28, 2021)




----------



## Smokeandsteam (Sep 28, 2021)

TopCat said:


> The Guardian is representing a broad range of opinion today.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



One of the better article I’ve read from the Remain side for some time. Finally, some of them are openly expressing the logical conclusion of their politics: support for endemic low pay in certain sectors of the economy, open support for exploited migrant labour on the clear principle that it’s a tap richer countries should expect to be able to draw upon and bravely extolling Thatcherism. Fair play to Jenkins for his honesty.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 28, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> One of the better article I’ve read from the Remain side for some time. Finally, some of them are openly expressing the logical conclusion of their politics: support for endemic low pay in certain sectors of the economy, open support for exploited migrant labour on the clear principle that it’s a tap richer countries should expect to be able to draw upon and bravely extolling Thatcherism. Fair play to Jenkins for his honesty.


i don't suppose there's much in the way of unexploited labour either foreign or domestic.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Sep 28, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> i don't suppose there's much in the way of unexploited labour either foreign or domestic.



Indeed. But the question in this case is whether you write Guardian think pieces extolling it’s virtues or not.


----------



## Badgers (Sep 28, 2021)

Imagine if the UK was part on the EU? 

Living wage + €20 per hour minimum wage 

Dreams?


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 28, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Indeed. But the question in this case is whether you write Guardian think pieces extolling it’s virtues or not.


i hope you don't think i contribute under the nom de plume simon jenkins


----------



## TopCat (Sep 28, 2021)

Northern Irish unionist parties form alliance to oppose Brexit protocol
					

Four parties including DUP and Ulster Unionists issue statement warning of ‘grave damage’ under new rules




					www.theguardian.com
				




“The huge disruption of trade in the supply of goods from Great Britain to Northern Ireland has caused unnecessary supply chain disruption and unacceptable and unsustainable levels of bureaucracy and barriers to trade within our own nation.

“The resulting diversion and reorientation of trade is destructive of Northern Ireland’s place in the United Kingdom and will result in an economic realignment which is unacceptable,” they said.

They can smell the coffee.


----------



## Badgers (Sep 28, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Northern Irish unionist parties form alliance to oppose Brexit protocol
> 
> 
> Four parties including DUP and Ulster Unionists issue statement warning of ‘grave damage’ under new rules
> ...


Sunlit Uplands?


----------



## TopCat (Sep 28, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Sunlit Uplands?


If there is a United Ireland in my lifetime I will be as happy as a sandboy.


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 28, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Imagine if the UK was part on the EU?
> 
> Living wage + €20 per hour minimum wage
> 
> Dreams?


What does this post mean Badgers?


----------



## Badgers (Sep 28, 2021)

TopCat said:


> If there is a United Ireland in my lifetime I will be as happy as a sandboy.


I will blow you


----------



## Badgers (Sep 28, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> What does this post mean Badgers?


It means a different way is possible.


----------



## TopCat (Sep 28, 2021)

Badgers said:


> I will blow you


Thanks but err...


----------



## TopCat (Sep 28, 2021)

Badgers said:


> It means a different way is possible.


The EU adamantly oppose what you wrote?


----------



## bimble (Sep 28, 2021)

The migrant workers from poorer countries all over the world coming here on temporary visas, the ones that the UK seems most likely to become reliant on, are like in 39thsteps quote.
Pre-brexit most of the ‘migrant workers’ in the uk were free at least in theory to live here have babies here get healthcare etc if they wanted, it’s not really replacing like with like, it’s loads worse isn’t it?


----------



## Badgers (Sep 28, 2021)

bimble said:


> The migrant workers from poorer countries all over the world coming here on temporary visas, the ones that the UK seems most likely to become reliant on, are like in 39thsteps quote.
> Pre-brexit most of the ‘migrant workers’ in the uk were free at least in theory to live here have babies here get healthcare etc if they wanted, it’s not really replacing like with like, it’s loads worse isn’t it?


They will be fine outside the UK?


----------



## TopCat (Sep 28, 2021)

bimble said:


> The migrant workers from poorer countries all over the world coming here on temporary visas, the ones that the UK seems most likely to become reliant on, are like in 39thsteps quote.
> Pre-brexit most of the ‘migrant workers’ in the uk were free at least in theory to live here have babies here get healthcare etc if they wanted, it’s not really replacing like with like, it’s loads worse isn’t it?


The UK has placed restrictions on temporary visas. Five thousand temp lorry drivers restriction won't entail becoming reliant on these workers.


----------



## bimble (Sep 28, 2021)

TopCat said:


> The UK has placed restrictions on temporary visas. Five thousand temp lorry drivers restriction won't entail becoming reliant on these workers.


We’ll see what happens longer term. I think that ft article was right, there’ll be plenty of migrant workers still just even more exploited ones not less.
 Maybe not lorry drivers tho I reckon that will probably be ok in time.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 28, 2021)

TopCat said:


> The UK has placed restrictions on temporary visas. Five thousand temp lorry drivers restriction won't entail becoming reliant on these workers.


i don't know, the country has become sadly reliant on 650 parasites in westminster


----------



## Artaxerxes (Sep 28, 2021)

Badgers said:


> I will blow you



Not sure if this means your a member of the UDF or the IRA but it’s a bold way to out yourself


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 28, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Not sure if this means your a member of the UDF or the IRA but it’s a bold way to out yourself


other organisations are available


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 28, 2021)

Badgers said:


> It means a different way is possible.


Yes hopefully across the world. I was reading in one of the Portuguese papers about a raid on farms in Alentejo. Workers from Nepal ,brought over by gangers , living in hovels being paid a pittance under the excuse that 'the Portuguese won't do these jobs and the farms can't afford to pay propers wages'


----------



## TopCat (Sep 28, 2021)

TopCat said:


> “We cannot point to one historical example in which a temporary labour shortage has been remedied with a temporary labour migration programme, and then employers returned to hiring local workers.” A favourite aphorism of migration experts is that there is nothing so permanent as a temporary migration programme.”


bimble 
You said it was spot on. I would agree with the quoted bits above but do you? Really?


----------



## ska invita (Sep 28, 2021)

The39thStep said:


>



...thats certainly more true now post-Brexit than before: when a "migrant worker" came to the UK they could quickly become defacto UK citizens, with the UK state responsible for them, access to the welfare state, voting rights etc. Not any more - now temp-visa workers truly "have a single function - to work". The creation of a new migrant underclass definitely something to watch and fight against, post-Brexit.

In fact people calling all EU citizens living in the UK pre-Brexit "migrant workers" was pigeonholing people who were simply exercising their right to free movement. Some people work, some don't. Some people moved strictly for work reasons, others for a range of other reasons, some wanted to settle, others to return home etc. Someone who wants to settle is not a migrant worker - theyre an expat.

ETA: just saw bimble say the same thing above - agree


----------



## Supine (Sep 28, 2021)

ska invita said:


> ...thats certainly more true now post-Brexit than before: when a "migrant worker" came to the UK they could quickly become defacto UK citizens, with the UK state responsible for them, access to the welfare state, voting rights etc. Not any more - now temp-visa workers truly "have a single function - to work". The creation of a new migrant underclass definitely something to watch and fight against, post-Brexit.
> 
> In fact people calling all EU citizens living the UK pre-Brexit "migrant workers" was pigeonholing people who were simply exercising their right to free movement. Some people work, some don't. Some people moved strictly for work reasons, others for a range of other reasons, some wanted to settle, others to return home etc. Someone who wants to settle is not a migrant worker - theyre an expat.
> 
> ETA: just saw bimble say the same thing above - agree



Spot on


----------



## ska invita (Sep 28, 2021)

...in fact shirking state responsibility whilst being able to now grant temp work visas surely a motivating factor for the Tories and Kippers etc


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 28, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Not sure if this means your a member of the UDF or the IRA but it’s a bold way to out yourself



They haven't blown away, you know


----------



## Duncan2 (Sep 28, 2021)

perhaps these temporary work visas for truck drivers and farm workers will prove to be the thin end of the wedge.In the normal course the Tories could then expect there to be a reckoning in two years time.Its particularly unfortunate therefore that the Labour Party seems likely ,on current showing at least, to have given up the ghost by then.


----------



## Ax^ (Sep 28, 2021)




----------



## dessiato (Sep 28, 2021)

Ax^ said:


>


A friend of mine says this is only happening because the EU wants to punish the UK


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 29, 2021)

Ax^ said:


>



The temperatures seem to have improved, mind


----------



## 8ball (Sep 29, 2021)

dessiato said:


> A friend of mine says this is only happening because the EU wants to punish the UK



What does he say about Princess Diana’s recent exploits?


----------



## Raheem (Sep 29, 2021)

Maybe it's actually Diana that wants to punish the UK.


----------



## Badgers (Sep 29, 2021)




----------



## Maggot (Sep 29, 2021)

A great prediction and an even better acronym. 









						FFUK: Brexit could ease driver shortage pressures
					

The FairFuelUK (FFUK) campaign has suggested that leaving the EU could help the UK solve its HGV driver shortage.   Speaking after 52% of the British public voted in favour of Brexit, FFUK co-founder Howard Cox said that while the result was unlikely to lead to “a mass overhaul of our transport la




					motortransport.co.uk


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Sep 29, 2021)

Maggot said:


> A great prediction and an even better acronym.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



have they re-branded as Out of Fuel UK?


----------



## bimble (Sep 29, 2021)

TopCat said:


> bimble
> You said it was spot on. I would agree with the quoted bits above but do you? Really?


i don't know, i'm not any kind of expert. Seems likely that they )migration experts whoever they are) know what they're talking about, and seems logical too. I definitely think it's true for agriculture.


----------



## TopCat (Sep 29, 2021)

The froth expressed here cheers. Three-quarters of small French boats may be denied fishing in UK waters


----------



## two sheds (Sep 29, 2021)

Does that mean they've said 'yes go ahead' to large fishing boats?


----------



## two sheds (Sep 29, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> No, that one's just a piss-take. People actually take this one seriously.


that lasted well


----------



## Dogsauce (Sep 29, 2021)

Puddy_Tat said:


> have they re-branded as Out of Fuel UK?


I have a feeling this organisation is one of those one-man reactionary outfits that gets a sympathetic ear in the right wing press, a bit like that ‘Association of British Drivers’ bloke, or the slightly larger but corporately manufactured ‘Taxpayer’s Alliance’.


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 29, 2021)

This is a very good description analysis of how lorry drivers have been and are still being fleeced across Europe and the U.K. Which those who are pro working class left , whether they voted for or against or abstained re Brexit , shouldn’t have any problem with .


----------



## sleaterkinney (Sep 29, 2021)

GM crops, brexit dividend.





__





						Genetically modified food a step closer in England as laws relaxed | GM | The Guardian
					

Government removes costs and red tape in go-ahead for more trials of gene edited crops




					amp.theguardian.com


----------



## Spymaster (Sep 29, 2021)

sleaterkinney said:


> GM crops, brexit dividend.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This deserves its own thread rather than being lost in this stupid one, as it could actually generate some worthwhile discussion. Anyway, I suppose _The Guardian_ link alone will suffice for this thread's purposes.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Sep 29, 2021)

sleaterkinney said:


> GM crops, brexit dividend.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well there's nothing wrong with GM crops per se, infact they've been a great benefit in some parts of the world.


----------



## TopCat (Sep 29, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> This is a very good description analysis of how lorry drivers have been and are still being fleeced across Europe and the U.K. Which those who are pro working class left , whether they voted for or against or abstained re Brexit , shouldn’t have any problem with .



That’s the crux of it.


----------



## Raheem (Sep 29, 2021)

Count Cuckula said:


> Well there's nothing wrong with GM crops per se, infact they've been a great benefit in some parts of the world.


Regardless, given that it's a massively unpopular idea, it's not really very "taking back control".


----------



## sleaterkinney (Sep 29, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> This deserves its own thread rather than being lost in this stupid one, as it could actually generate some worthwhile discussion. Anyway, I suppose _The Guardian_ link alone will suffice for this thread's purposes.


Thread here:









						The GM debate
					

Posted because one of the brexit dividends turns out to be GM.  https://amp.theguardian.com/environment/2021/sep/29/genetically-modified-food-a-step-closer-in-england-as-laws-relaxed?__twitter_impression=true   People have been selectively breeding crops and animals for thousands of years, Most...




					www.urban75.net


----------



## ska invita (Sep 29, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> This deserves its own thread rather than being lost in this stupid one, as it could actually generate some worthwhile discussion. Anyway, I suppose _The Guardian_ link alone will suffice for this thread's purposes.











						It's starting... "Deregulation, cutting red tape"
					

To chart the articles and attempts to withdraw workers rights mooted in the papers, and probably discussed in cabinet.  Going to be fun times ahead for the poorest in society.  - Now the vote is over, let's move on with six steps to a bright future   We should scrap EU-mandated labour market...




					www.urban75.net
				




?


----------



## MrSki (Sep 29, 2021)

A view from Germany.


----------



## Anju (Sep 30, 2021)

The introduction from an excellent report linked to in the article  TopCat posted.

"On the killing beds you were apt to be cov-
ered with blood, and it would freeze solid; if
you leaned against a pillar, you would freeze
to that, and if you put your hand upon the
blade of your knife, you would run a chance
of leaving your skin on it."
Upton Sinclair’s classic American novel
The Jungle, the story of an immigrant fam-
ily from Lithuania working in the abattoirs
of Chicago, was published in 1906 to both
critical acclaim and public outrage due to
its unflinching portrayal of the dire condi-
tions in a meat industry dominated by big
business and rife with exploitation and un-
sanitary practices"

Report looks mostly at
German meat processing industry and how workers power, pay and conditions have been eroded over the last 30 years. Some stuff on other EU countries and how collective bargaining has offered protection in some but been circumvented in others. Also looks at a new law in Germany that will outlaw subcontracting in the industry and briefly at other measures EU wide.

Bonus points for the Mafia comparison.

I missed too many pages of this thread to catch up so not sure how it got to meat but there is a bit of information on what the EU is doing to address some of the exploitative practices migrant workers face. I get that it won't be enough, will take too long and things won't necessarily be enforced but also can't see things here getting any better. Work visas just increase the potential for employers to exploit people. 

https://www.etui.org/sites/default/files/2021-05/HM23_Change a long time coming for subcontracted slaughterhouse workers_2021_0.pdf


----------



## TopCat (Sep 30, 2021)

MrSki said:


> A view from Germany.



Yeah the Germans can continue to exploit east European truck drivers and we are stupid for no longer doing so.


----------



## TopCat (Sep 30, 2021)

Low pay, long hours, broken dreams: working at Europe’s biggest meat exporter
					

Temporary staff at meat plants in the Netherlands share none of the success of the booming industry as agencies withhold pay and threaten eviction




					www.theguardian.com
				




The reality of free movement. Of capital, of people, of goods.


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 30, 2021)

MrSki said:


> A view from Germany.




"Brexit island'


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 30, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Yeah the Germans can continue to exploit east European truck drivers and we are stupid for no longer doing so.


Proud civic duty in the EU


----------



## bimble (Sep 30, 2021)

Some people here seem to genuinely think that as a result of the tory brexit this country, led by Boris Johnson, is about to embark on a new less exploitative economy where workers are treated better than they are in nasty places like Germany. I think this is sweet.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 30, 2021)

Base and superstructure.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Sep 30, 2021)

bimble said:


> Some people here seem to genuinely think that as a result of the tory brexit this country, led by Boris Johnson, is about to embark on a new less exploitative economy where workers are treated better than they are in nasty places like Germany. I think this is sweet.



"We can trust Russia and China because they aren't The Imperial American Empire" taken to its logical conclusion.


----------



## bimble (Sep 30, 2021)

i've heard that united arab emirates manages to do an outstanding job of exploiting temporary migrant workers (who are the vast majority of the people who  do any work there) without even being in the EU. 
Australia apparently also relies on an extremely oppressed migrant workforce to do its meat processing, but people think brexit means the UK will be different. Why?


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 30, 2021)

bimble said:


> Some people here seem to genuinely think that as a result of the tory brexit this country, led by Boris Johnson, is about to embark on a new less exploitative economy where workers are treated better than they are in nasty places like Germany. I think this is sweet.


----------



## bimble (Sep 30, 2021)

Denmark’s meat processors have achieved better pay & conditions than neighbouring countries, it’s almost as if EU membership or not isn’t actually the most important thing in any of this.









						‘We have to fight for these conditions’: why Danish meat plant workers are Europe’s best paid
					

Denmark has secured decent pay and conditions within the sector. Will other EU countries finally follow suit?




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## ska invita (Sep 30, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Low pay, long hours, broken dreams: working at Europe’s biggest meat exporter
> 
> 
> Temporary staff at meat plants in the Netherlands share none of the success of the booming industry as agencies withhold pay and threaten eviction
> ...


...ah for that long historic utopia of workers conditions before we were in the EU. When down the mine you only worked with your neighbour....

all along the brexit debate the case was made that its not too many workers that are the problem, its a lack of union fight that is the problem - better conditions for all. was that wrong?


theres a deeper history of movement of workers: from the commons to the factories, from the fields to the cities, from the north to the south, from the corners to the centre, from the regions to the capital.

I'm not sure where the logic of sending people back by restricting their movement ends


----------



## Yossarian (Sep 30, 2021)

Anju said:


> The introduction from an excellent report linked to in the article  TopCat posted.
> 
> "On the killing beds you were apt to be cov-
> ered with blood, and it would freeze solid; if
> ...



Sad thing about The Jungle is that Sinclair, a socialist, wrote it to expose the many ways in which immigrant workers were exploited by factories, landlords, corrupt politicians, etc. but the part that outraged people and led to changes was his description of unsanitary practices in the meat industry. "I aimed at the public's heart, and by accident I hit it in the stomach," he said.


----------



## philosophical (Sep 30, 2021)

If harking back to the past is allowed then it might be worth pointing out the pre EU wars with the French and Germans and Dutch and others, and the impact of being in the EU that has helped make Ireland more peaceful.
Working conditions is not the whole agenda.


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 30, 2021)

After endless photos of  supermarket shelves and queues of cars and the daily social media  posts checking on empty shelves and queues of cars hopefully photos of circuses without clowns is the next big FBPE  thing.



> "Because all the circuses in Europe and in England have been up and operational for the past six months, that huge pool of EU artists are already back at work and up until last week we haven't been able to even get visas issued for non-EU artists and entertainers," Mr Duffy said.











						Clown shortage: Appeal for new recruits in Northern Ireland
					

The Covid-19 pandemic has been blamed for many clowns returning to their home countries.



					www.bbc.com


----------



## Yossarian (Sep 30, 2021)

"Overwhelming surplus of clowns in Westminster causes NI clown shortage"


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 30, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Base and superstructure.


----------



## dessiato (Sep 30, 2021)

According to my sister, just now, all the EU drivers can come and take driving jobs, there's no restrictions on people moving in and out of the UK. She cannot be persuaded otherwise.


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 30, 2021)

dessiato said:


> According to my sister, just now, all the EU drivers can come and take driving jobs, there's no restrictions on people moving in and out of the UK. She cannot be persuaded otherwise.


I've just spent a week with my sister over here and that has confirmed my long held view that sisters opinions on most things are to be taken with a large pinch of salt.


----------



## not a trot (Sep 30, 2021)

bimble said:


> Some people here seem to genuinely think that as a result of the tory brexit this country, led by Boris Johnson, is about to embark on a new less exploitative economy where workers are treated better than they are in nasty places like Germany. I think this is sweet.



Workers are going to have the right to 'ask' for things like flexible working hours etc. Ask and be told to fuck off.


----------



## Ax^ (Sep 30, 2021)

of course you can ask for flexible hour

just not in the first 2 year when it easier to sack you because of previously implemented Tory policy

now the furlough scheme has end let just see how the demonisation of the unemployed ramps up to force people to filled the skills gap

be shipping people to work farms to save Christmas


----------



## Badgers (Sep 30, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Low pay, long hours, broken dreams: working at Europe’s biggest meat exporter
> 
> 
> Temporary staff at meat plants in the Netherlands share none of the success of the booming industry as agencies withhold pay and threaten eviction
> ...


Am sure the #ToryScum will make sure worker's are treated fairly 

While they and their mates keep their filthy money offshore


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 30, 2021)

Not sure, aside from keeping the EU flag flying on Twitter hashtags, or voting LibDem/Green/SNP etc, where Remainers in the Labour Party have to go, to be honest. Starmer and co have led the second referendum troops up the garden path.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 30, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Not sure, aside from keeping the EU flag flying on Twitter hashtags, or voting LibDem/Green/SNP etc, where Remainers in the Labour Party have to go, to be honest. Starmer and co have led the second referendum troops up the garden path.



perhaps 'we in the labour party seek greater cooperation with our european neighbours, both within the eu and indeed in efta'. but i wouldn't trust any of them to tell the day of the week


----------



## ska invita (Sep 30, 2021)

I guess removing, let's say, a couple of million workers, by taking away a group of people's rights is one way to create a labour shortage

A strike is the traditional way the left creates a labour shortage in the hope of raising working conditions. 

The politics of a strike are explicit. The politics of removing rights is dubious.

I guess in the absence of an effective union movement this removal of rights is something, I just can't imagine it being effective beyond small areas of the economy, and it's done so on political grounds of nationalism. Even though the rights of everyone in the host nation have also been reduced.

Any improvements in pay and conditions seem short term and narrowly distributed to me, but worse what is the political legacy? What lessons get learned? A union victory now builds for the future...whereas a victory based on expelling those deemed foreign?


----------



## Badgers (Sep 30, 2021)




----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 30, 2021)

Badgers said:


>



Global Britain, hurrah, etc


----------



## two sheds (Sep 30, 2021)

"There's a French company that could do it."
"DON'T YOU KNOW HOW STUPID THAT WOULD MAKE US LOOK?" 
"Well the other one is ...


----------



## Chilli.s (Sep 30, 2021)

Badgers said:


>



I wonder where and to who the invisible and untaxable backhander for this is being paid.


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 30, 2021)

ska invita said:


> I guess removing, let's say, a couple of million workers, by taking away a group of people's rights is one way to create a labour shortage
> 
> A strike is the traditional way the left creates a labour shortage in the hope of raising working conditions.
> 
> ...


Don’t want to be picky but I’m a little confused about this post and your previous tbh.

Firstly strikes are not ‘the traditional way the left creates a labour shortage in the hope of raising labour conditions’ . Strikes are normally the withdrawal of labour by working class organisations. There are exceptions to this ie the have been strikes by middle class organisations . The tactic of the strike has been led by organisations not on the left , and indeed there are examples where strikes have had a completely reactionary nature. The whole difference between political parties and unions is that the former are composed of people who agree a political direction whereas trade unions are open to all. The working class is not a given for the left, it is a contested ground . Those who normally assume or want to take for granted that unions and the working class are naturally left are normally naive ie the Labour Party ‘they have nowhere else to go’, Tory anti union types or somewhat excitable folk who do a few years activism then write off the W/class because it doesn’t measure up to their theory and what they would like the working class to be.

Secondly far from strikes being ‘the traditional way the left creates a labour shortage in the hope of raising labour conditions’ , most strikes over the past decade and probably further back have been ( and the majority in this present period ) are defensive strikes ie sackings, deskilling, fire and hire , redundancies. This is to defend labour conditions rather than to improve them. Wage militancy / shorter working hours etc isn’t something generally that we hear about these days. Defensive strikes rarely have anything to do with labour shortages in fact many are to do with companies or the public sector shedding labour as to reduce cost, hence exactly the opposite of a labour shortage.

Strikes themselves are generally sectional and therefore improvements are ‘narrowly distributed ‘. However, I would imagine that what ever attempts are made to make improvements in pay or working conditions ‘short term ‘ will be resisted more fiercely by those who have taken industrial action to get them.

I think I can see the overall point you are attempting to make , that is that if we had fighting trade unions then lorry drivers , some hospitality workers, some agricultural and retail workers wouldn’t have had to rely on a blend of Brexit , covid , after enduring decades of a the race to the bottom in deskilling and working conditions , to get a wage rise .

However I think you need to go back to why we haven’t got widespread fighting unions,  rank and file activism in workplaces and haven’t had since the defeat of the miners, steel workers, press workers and engineering workers etc under Thatcher.

For me the emergence of the non traditional unions and Sheila Grahame’s election might mean that we see a little more of ‘the awkward squad’ rather than the dross we got following the capitulation of the TUC , after the miners strike , into being part of Delors ‘social contract’


----------



## TopCat (Sep 30, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Am sure the #ToryScum will make sure worker's are treated fairly
> 
> While they and their mates keep their filthy money offshore


You don’t trust the tories to protect workers rights and neither do I, it’s absurd. 

It is constantly asserted though that the EU are big protectors of workers rights whilst that’s ridiculous. They expand into poorer countries to systematically exploit their labour.


----------



## Supine (Sep 30, 2021)

I’m pretty sure countries apply to join because of the benefits they receive rather than the EU expand and take them over for the purposes of exploitation.


----------



## Yossarian (Sep 30, 2021)

bimble said:


> Denmark’s meat processors have achieved better pay & conditions than neighbouring countries, it’s almost as if EU membership or not isn’t actually the most important thing in any of this.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




_While meat companies in Denmark can use workers sourced via agencies and subcontractors, workers must be paid the same wages as directly employed staff, hence there is no financial benefit for companies who source workers from intermediaries

All workers in beef and pork factories are represented by trade unions, according to the food union NNF, and they work under collective agreements._

These definitely sound like steps in the right direction - though another important step would be action against meat imports from places with unacceptable working conditions, which could be hard to achieve, given the lack of will for ending slavery in the seafood industry.


----------



## TopCat (Sep 30, 2021)

Supine said:


> I’m pretty sure countries apply to join because of the benefits they receive rather than the EU expand and take them over for the purposes of exploitation.


Take them over? They don’t want to do that but exploit their labour to keep profits high and inflation low yes.


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 30, 2021)

Supine said:


> I’m pretty sure countries apply to join because of the benefits they receive rather than the EU expand and take them over for the purposes of exploitation.


Greece being a very good example .


----------



## Supine (Sep 30, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Greece being a very good example .



Not really. I don’t think large numbers of Greeks went to work cheaply elsewhere in Europe.


----------



## andysays (Sep 30, 2021)

Supine said:


> I’m pretty sure countries apply to join because of the benefits they receive rather than the EU expand and take them over for the purposes of exploitation.


I'm pretty sure the benefits of any country joining the EU aren't shared equally among all its citizens, and neither are the costs of the exploitation.


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 30, 2021)

Supine said:


> Not really. I don’t think large numbers of Greeks went to work cheaply elsewhere in Europe.


Seem to recall at a talk I went to that during the recession 2005/6 - 2011 that the born in Greek population decreased by around half a million . Perhaps you are right. Perhaps they just died during the recession . Who cares ?


----------



## Supine (Sep 30, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Seem to recall at a talk I went to that during the recession 2005/6 - 2011 that the born in Greek population decreased by around half a million . Perhaps you are right. Perhaps they just died during the recession . Who cares ?



A sixth of the population emigrated in 1893 due to the cost of currents falling. A million moved out after ww2. Simply blaming the EU for this kind of thing is narrow minded. The assumption that all immigrants are exploited is also just plain lazy.


----------



## bimble (Sep 30, 2021)

Supine said:


> The assumption that all immigrants are exploited is also just plain lazy.


Lazy and also incredibly paternalistic, like aren’t we brexiteers benevolent and good, for rescuing all those poor Bulgarians from exploitation by removing their choice to come here.


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 30, 2021)

Supine said:


> A sixth of the population emigrated in 1893 due to the cost of currents falling. A million moved out after ww2. Simply blaming the EU for this kind of thing is narrow minded. The assumption that all immigrants are exploited is also just plain lazy.


I didn’t make any such assumption , merely pointed out that you were , as you are,  incorrect about the impact of the recession in Greece on its working population.


----------



## Supine (Sep 30, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> I didn’t make any such assumption , merely pointed out that you were , as you are,  incorrect about the impact of the recession in Greece on its working population.



Nobody was talking about the Greek recession, which is a different subject. Plenty of threads on that already i think.


----------



## Yossarian (Sep 30, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Seem to recall at a talk I went to that during the recession 2005/6 - 2011 that the born in Greek population decreased by around half a million . Perhaps you are right. Perhaps they just died during the recession . Who cares ?



A lot of educated Greeks left the country to work in  Australia, the US, Germany etc., and the already very low birthrate declined further during the recession - but there doesn't seem to have been a big outflow of Greeks emigrating to work cheaply in chicken plants in Britain etc.


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 30, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> A lot of educated Greeks left the country to work in  Australia, the US, Germany etc., and the already very low birthrate declined further during the recession - but there doesn't seem to have been a big outflow of Greeks emigrating to work cheaply in chicken plants in Britain etc.


Well at least you and me are talking about the Greek recession .


----------



## 8ball (Sep 30, 2021)

Badgers said:


>




I don’t know much about Drakeford, but my Dad hates him so much I reckon he must be ok.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 1, 2021)

Heeding working-class voices on Brexit and labour shortages | Letters
					

Letters: Jonny Marsh and Mike Whittaker on how the exodus of EU workers has contributed to the problems being faced in a range of sectors in the UK




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 1, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Heeding working-class voices on Brexit and labour shortages | Letters
> 
> 
> Letters: Jonny Marsh and Mike Whittaker on how the exodus of EU workers has contributed to the problems being faced in a range of sectors in the UK
> ...


You can already see what pitiful creatures our remaining politicians are now they don't have Brussels to call on for support


----------



## krtek a houby (Oct 1, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> You can already see what pitiful creatures our remaining politicians are now they don't have Brussels to call on for support



Eats sprouts and leaves


----------



## bimble (Oct 1, 2021)

"Ministers are discussing plans to ease visa restrictions to allow up to 1,000 foreign butchers into the country, _The Times _has been told. Priti Patel, the home secretary, is resisting the move however.."

Strange days, when your post-brexit workers rights hopes (and pigs in blankets) hinge on Priti Patel staying strong.









						Visas for foreign butchers as industry warns of Christmas shortages
					

Britain is facing a shortage of butchers amid warnings that pigs in blankets, hams and party foods will be scarce this Christmas.Ministers are discussing pl




					www.thetimes.co.uk


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Oct 1, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Heeding working-class voices on Brexit and labour shortages | Letters
> 
> 
> Letters: Jonny Marsh and Mike Whittaker on how the exodus of EU workers has contributed to the problems being faced in a range of sectors in the UK
> ...



On Question Time last night you had the Tory arguing for higher wages for drivers while the Labour MP (Wes Streeting), and a Lord representing the CBI, were calling for the re-establishment of a pool of cheap labour via immigration.

Heady times…


----------



## Badgers (Oct 1, 2021)

Long thread below. Looking at the logistics needed to sort out the UK logistics.


----------



## editor (Oct 1, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Low pay, long hours, broken dreams: working at Europe’s biggest meat exporter
> 
> 
> Temporary staff at meat plants in the Netherlands share none of the success of the booming industry as agencies withhold pay and threaten eviction
> ...


Remind me how Brexit has changed all that for the better.


----------



## Badgers (Oct 1, 2021)

#goingwellhere


----------



## Chilli.s (Oct 1, 2021)

But only if they sing carols as they drive along


----------



## Yossarian (Oct 1, 2021)

Badgers said:


> #goingwellhere




I wonder how much they'll sweeten the deal before they realise that EU drivers haven't been sleeping in their cabs all year, eating beans and praying for the day when the Promised Land relaxes its immigration rules.


----------



## bimble (Oct 1, 2021)

It’s not restricted to EU drivers (or farm workers or butchers etc) so just maybe they’ll get lucky if the pay is good enough and people will come, who have never experienced the joys of working in the uk before.


----------



## Badgers (Oct 1, 2021)

WTF









						Government asks German residents to drive lorries even if they never have before
					

Exclusive: German driving licences issued before 1999 include entitlement to drive a small to medium-sized truck of up to 7.5 tonnes




					www.independent.co.uk


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Oct 1, 2021)

Badgers said:


> WTF



uk driving licences issued before x date (some time mid to late 90s) allow you to drive up to 7 1/2 ton goods vehicles as well

it's category C1 on driving licences


----------



## two sheds (Oct 1, 2021)

I could drive one o' them


----------



## Duncan2 (Oct 1, 2021)

Badgers said:


> WTF
> 
> 
> 
> ...


the C1 was only brought in here in 1997 wasn't it?
beaten to it by Puddytat. Not sure that so-called grandfather rights are still sufficient since the introduction of CPC.


----------



## Yossarian (Oct 1, 2021)

Badgers said:


> WTF
> 
> 
> 
> ...



And they said Germans aren't funny.

_"We were quite surprised,” he said. “I’m sure pay and conditions for HGV drivers have improved, but ultimately I have decided to carry on in my role at an investment bank. My wife has never driven anything larger than a Volvo, so she is also intending to decline the exciting opportunity.

“It is nice to know there are specialist jobs available here for us though after Brexit. We would never have been headhunted to drive a lorry if we’d gone back to Germany." _


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 1, 2021)

Badgers said:


> WTF
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Lol. You've been suckered by the bollocks press headlines designed to get your juices flowing!

What has actually happened is that the DfT sent a mailout to all HGV licence holders hoping to coax some ex-HGV drivers with still valid licences back into the job. The letter clearly says "if you are no longer working in this sector we would like to take this opportunity to ask you to consider returning".

UK based Germans who have transferred their German licences to Brit ones got their C1 category transferred automatically because standard German licences still included it, even though British ones haven't since the 90s. Trouble is, the DVLA have no way of knowing what people's occupations are, so everyone (about a million people) with an HGV entitlement got them, including the aforementioned Germans. They weren't specifically targeted.

Good story though.


----------



## Yossarian (Oct 1, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Trouble is, the DVLA have no way of knowing what people's occupations are, so everyone (about a million people) with an HGV entitlement got them, including the aforementioned Germans. They weren't specifically targeted.
> 
> Good story though.



Independent story acknowledges this eventually.

_The letter is part of the same mass mailout that has also asked ambulance drivers and paramedics to come and drive HGV vehicles. The Department of Transport has said that data protection rules meant they were unable to filter the results_


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 1, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> Independent story acknowledges this eventually.
> 
> _The letter is part of the same mass mailout that has also asked ambulance drivers and paramedics to come and drive HGV vehicles. The Department of Transport has said that data protection rules meant they were unable to filter the results_



Even that bit is mendacious tosh. They haven't "asked ambulance drivers and paramedics to come and drive HGVs". Some ambulance drivers received the letter on the same basis as the Germans. There’s no mention of them (or indeed any occupation) in the letter.


----------



## bimble (Oct 1, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Even that bit is mendacious tosh. They haven't "asked ambulance drivers and paramedics to come and drive HGVs". Some ambulance drivers received the letter on the same basis as the Germans. There’s no mention of them in the letter.


Quite right. How dare the press make derogatory statements like that about our Brexit Government, any insult to Johnson and his friends is an insult to all hard working leave voters.


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 1, 2021)

bimble said:


> Quite right. How dare the press make derogatory statements like that about our Brexit Government, any insult to Johnson and his friends is an insult to all hard working leave voters.


Derogatory is fine. Out and out bollocks designed to get the Badgers and Bimble brigade all sexed-up is going to get called out though.


----------



## bimble (Oct 1, 2021)

its just a little bit funny thats all, that letter being posted to a million people, now, when its way too late, in case they might possibly come to the rescue. Absolute joke of an implementation of a massive change to the country. Entirely predictable.


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 1, 2021)

Can’t argue with that.


----------



## campanula (Oct 1, 2021)

My bro-in-law is a lorry driver. For £9.00 per hour, he was expected to work 60-70hour weeks, piss by the side of the road, eat in his cab. 2 months ago, he was given a payrise of an extra £100 a week. The current govt. is so utterly out of touch, they have no fucking clue. Where are all these foreign drivers going to live? Presumably, not a single minister has had to go through the humiliation of applying for some shit rental. Or perhaps the drivers can sleep in caravans in car-parks. No fucker is coming here to take up visas - this is a problem which has been decades in the making. Brexit and Covid simply excerbated a crappy situation where it costs £4K to get a HGV licence (just like the whole 'ticketing scam which has swept through construction and other skilled trades in the absence of any sort of investment and training right across the whole skilled labour sector). FE colleges closing, shitty adverts to 'learn to be a plumber in 3 weeks and earn £100K a year (as if) - a perfect storm of turning the UK into a shitty low-wage service sector, heritage/tourist concern. Lorry drivers have been leaving the industry in droves - and, as with the care sector, it's only now that a conflation of pandemic. short-term lack of investment (and the UK isn't an isolated case here) and the scooping up of profits by a parasite class of fincap scum, hedge-funders, rentiers, landlords and such. The care sector is also crisis because we are now in a phase of vulture capitalism and predatory practices to squeeze labour by the bollocks.


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Oct 1, 2021)

campanula said:


> My bro-in-law is a lorry driver. For £9.00 per hour, he was expected to work 60-70hour weeks, piss by the side of the road, eat in his cab. 2 months ago, he was given a payrise of an extra £100 a week. The current govt. is so utterly out of touch, they have no fucking clue. Where are all these foreign drivers going to live? Presumably, not a single minister has had to go through the humiliation of applying for some shit rental. Or perhaps the drivers can sleep in caravans in car-parks. No fucker is coming here to take up visas - this is a problem which has been decades in the making. Brexit and Covid simply excerbated a crappy situation where it costs £4K to get a HGV licence (just like the whole 'ticketing scam which has swept through construction and other skilled trades in the absence of any sort of investment and training right across the whole skilled labour sector). FE colleges closing, shitty adverts to 'learn to be a plumber in 3 weeks and earn £100K a year (as if) - a perfect storm of turning the UK into a shitty low-wage service sector, heritage/tourist concern. Lorry drivers have been leaving the industry in droves - and, as with the care sector, it's only now that a conflation of pandemic. short-term lack of investment (and the UK isn't an isolated case here) and the scooping up of profits by a parasite class of fincap scum, hedge-funders, rentiers, landlords and such. The care sector is also crisis because we are now in a phase of vulture capitalism and predatory practices to squeeze labour by the bollocks.


I wrote a lengthy post about my experiences as a carer and then deleted it, I think it might have something to do with the thread eh- ah well, but just wanted to say cheers for your sensible post on this thread and the food shortages one, spot on


----------



## TopCat (Oct 1, 2021)

Badgers said:


> WTF
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I have that entitlement.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 1, 2021)

campanula said:


> My bro-in-law is a lorry driver. For £9.00 per hour, he was expected to work 60-70hour weeks, piss by the side of the road, eat in his cab. 2 months ago, he was given a payrise of an extra £100 a week. The current govt. is so utterly out of touch, they have no fucking clue. Where are all these foreign drivers going to live? Presumably, not a single minister has had to go through the humiliation of applying for some shit rental. Or perhaps the drivers can sleep in caravans in car-parks. No fucker is coming here to take up visas - this is a problem which has been decades in the making. Brexit and Covid simply excerbated a crappy situation where it costs £4K to get a HGV licence (just like the whole 'ticketing scam which has swept through construction and other skilled trades in the absence of any sort of investment and training right across the whole skilled labour sector). FE colleges closing, shitty adverts to 'learn to be a plumber in 3 weeks and earn £100K a year (as if) - a perfect storm of turning the UK into a shitty low-wage service sector, heritage/tourist concern. Lorry drivers have been leaving the industry in droves - and, as with the care sector, it's only now that a conflation of pandemic. short-term lack of investment (and the UK isn't an isolated case here) and the scooping up of profits by a parasite class of fincap scum, hedge-funders, rentiers, landlords and such. The care sector is also crisis because we are now in a phase of vulture capitalism and predatory practices to squeeze labour by the bollocks.


Yes. This.


----------



## Raheem (Oct 2, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Even that bit is mendacious tosh. They haven't "asked ambulance drivers and paramedics to come and drive HGVs". Some ambulance drivers received the letter on the same basis as the Germans. There’s no mention of them (or indeed any occupation) in the letter.


It's OK because the Telegraph have done the same story in pretty much the same way. So it's officially shit even if you voted leave.


----------



## krtek a houby (Oct 2, 2021)

campanula said:


> My bro-in-law is a lorry driver. For £9.00 per hour, he was expected to work 60-70hour weeks, piss by the side of the road, eat in his cab. 2 months ago, he was given a payrise of an extra £100 a week. The current govt. is so utterly out of touch, they have no fucking clue. Where are all these foreign drivers going to live? Presumably, not a single minister has had to go through the humiliation of applying for some shit rental. Or perhaps the drivers can sleep in caravans in car-parks. No fucker is coming here to take up visas - this is a problem which has been decades in the making. Brexit and Covid simply excerbated a crappy situation where it costs £4K to get a HGV licence (just like the whole 'ticketing scam which has swept through construction and other skilled trades in the absence of any sort of investment and training right across the whole skilled labour sector). FE colleges closing, shitty adverts to 'learn to be a plumber in 3 weeks and earn £100K a year (as if) - a perfect storm of turning the UK into a shitty low-wage service sector, heritage/tourist concern. Lorry drivers have been leaving the industry in droves - and, as with the care sector, it's only now that a conflation of pandemic. short-term lack of investment (and the UK isn't an isolated case here) and the scooping up of profits by a parasite class of fincap scum, hedge-funders, rentiers, landlords and such. The care sector is also crisis because we are now in a phase of vulture capitalism and predatory practices to squeeze labour by the bollocks.



Excellent post. 

Quick query, "fincap"?


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## Badgers (Oct 2, 2021)

> The panic of the past week, which recalled old memories (and myths) about the tumultuous late 1970s, was a long time coming. For many months, industry leaders across the economy have warned about chronic labor shortages — of truck drivers, yes, but also fruit pickers, meat processors, waiters and health care workers — disrupting supply chains and impeding businesses.



From across the pond... 









						Opinion | Britain Is Heading Into a Nightmarish Winter
					

A sudden convergence of crises  has cast the country’s future in darkness.




					www.nytimes.com


----------



## klang (Oct 2, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> And they said Germans aren't funny.
> 
> _"We were quite surprised,” he said. “I’m sure pay and conditions for HGV drivers have improved, but ultimately I have decided to carry on in my role at an investment bank. My wife has never driven anything larger than a Volvo, so she is also intending to decline the exciting opportunity.
> 
> “It is nice to know there are specialist jobs available here for us though after Brexit. We would never have been headhunted to drive a lorry if we’d gone back to Germany." _


Germans might be funny but investment bankers definitely aren't.


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 2, 2021)

Badgers said:


> From across the pond...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Why not the tumultuous mid 70s when there were power cuts and the Tories were forced out ?


----------



## cupid_stunt (Oct 2, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Lol. You've been suckered by the bollocks press headlines designed to get your juices flowing!
> 
> What has_ actually _happened is that the DfT sent a mailout to all HGV licence holders hoping to coax some ex-HGV drivers with still valid licences back into the job. The letter clearly says "if you are no longer working in this sector we would like to take this opportunity to ask you to consider returning".
> 
> ...



Still odd they are writing to people with C1 category on their licence, about HGV jobs, when a 7.5 tonne truck is certainly not a HGV.

And, where's my fucking letter?   

Not that I would ever drive a HGV, I drove a 7.5 tonne truck once, and that scared the fucking shit out of me.


----------



## Yossarian (Oct 2, 2021)

Badgers said:


> From across the pond...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Some good turns of phrase in there. 




> And, *seeing the chance to recast their negligence as benevolence*, they claimed their failure to act was because they wanted companies to pay British workers more, instead of relying on cheap foreign labor.
> 
> This alibi for inaction is unconvincing. In the Netherlands, for example, new legislation has improved the pay and working conditions for truck drivers. In Britain, conditions remain among the worst in Europe.


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 2, 2021)

Golden opportunity for remainers on here to make their voices heard. If anyone goes I'd be interested to hear what the Managing Director of Cheshire Cheese has to say .









						Brexit isn’t working: protest at the Tory Party Conference
					

Brexit is not going away, it’s the elephant in the room.



					northeastbylines.co.uk


----------



## Yossarian (Oct 2, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> If anyone goes I'd be interested to hear what the Managing Director of Cheshire Cheese has to say .



My guess would be a complaint about selling cheese to the EU.


----------



## bimble (Oct 2, 2021)

great news, nobody from Europe can visit here unless they first buy a passport. (Estimated to be about 200 million people who have the Id cards but not a passport). 








						Insecure ID cards phased out as travel document to strengthen UK borders
					

From 1 October, UK Border Force will stop accepting insecure ID cards from most EU, EEA and Swiss citizens, in a move that will strengthen UK borders.




					www.gov.uk


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## The39thStep (Oct 2, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> My guess would be a complaint about selling cheese to the EU.


I was hoping it might be about his custom vintage car business in Hungary


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## teqniq (Oct 2, 2021)

Duncan2 said:


> the C1 was only brought in here in 1997 wasn't it?
> beaten to it by Puddytat. Not sure that so-called grandfather rights are still sufficient since the introduction of CPC.


Yes. I was recently told by a mate who is a lorry driver that you can no longer drive a 7.5 tonne truck on a car license (pre 1997) for commercial purposes without a CPC.


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## Pickman's model (Oct 2, 2021)

klang said:


> Germans might be funny but investment bankers definitely aren't.


Investment bankers are funny peculiar


----------



## bimble (Oct 2, 2021)

bimble said:


> less British food more imports as a result of brexit.



yup.


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## Pickman's model (Oct 2, 2021)

bimble said:


> yup.
> View attachment 290930


How swiftly you forget the turkeys from brazil


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## Artaxerxes (Oct 2, 2021)

Turkey is shit anyway


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## bimble (Oct 2, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> How swiftly you forget the turkeys from brazil


I haven't forgotten. Am still excited to go and look at the lables. I don't know how long it takes to create a turkey, will France & Poland just have a million spare birds sitting around ? It is intriguing.


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## Badgers (Oct 2, 2021)

bimble said:


> yup.
> View attachment 290930


Taking back control 
Food will be cheaper after Brexit 
Etc 
Etc


----------



## philosophical (Oct 2, 2021)

Shame.
Was hoping everybody would try a vegetarian Christmas.
After they come back from the previous nights midnight Mass where they respect the commandment ‘thou shalt not kill’.
I mean Christmas is supposed to be a Christian religious event in it’s origins.


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## bimble (Oct 2, 2021)

was Jesus a vegetarian?


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## Supine (Oct 2, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Turkey is shit anyway



Racist!!’


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## philosophical (Oct 2, 2021)

bimble said:


> was Jesus a vegetarian?


If he wasn’t he was a hypocrite I reckon.


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## dessiato (Oct 2, 2021)

bimble said:


> great news, nobody from Europe can visit here unless they first buy a passport. (Estimated to be about 200 million people who have the Id cards but not a passport).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That doesn't sound like a good idea. Lots of them will be tourists, or business people, bringing in money.


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## andysays (Oct 2, 2021)

cupid_stunt said:


> Still odd they are writing to people with C1 category on their licence, about HGV jobs, when a 7.5 tonne truck is certainly not a HGV.
> 
> And, where's my fucking letter?
> 
> Not that I would ever drive a HGV, I drove a 7.5 tonne truck once, and that scared the fucking shit out of me.


I have C1 and C1E (but not C or CE) on my licence. Does that mean I can drive up to 7.5 tonne?

I regularly drive a 3.5 tonne at work, but wouldn't want to go any bigger than that, certainly not without additional training.

I haven't had a letter either though, so I suppose it's all hypothetical anyway.


----------



## dessiato (Oct 2, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Turkey is shit anyway


I quite like it, especially with some stuffing and gravy.


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## philosophical (Oct 2, 2021)

bimble said:


> great news, nobody from Europe can visit here unless they first buy a passport. (Estimated to be about 200 million people who have the Id cards but not a passport).
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The leave voters have arrangements in place to check those passports on the land border between the EU and the UK…..oh hang on…..it looks like the moron leave voters are magically able to take back control of the borders by not controlling the borders.
It is impressive that some leave voters on here retro justify their nasty xenophobic vote by inferring they were secretly voting for a United Ireland.


----------



## teqniq (Oct 2, 2021)

The outlook from across the pond is bleak (penned by a UK journalist).

Britain Is Heading Into a Nightmarish Winter


----------



## xenon (Oct 2, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> Excellent post.
> 
> Quick query, "fincap"?



Financial Capital. Predatory acquisitions, asset stripping, rent seeking, all that for investment vehicles.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Oct 2, 2021)

teqniq said:


> The outlook from across the pond is bleak (penned by a UK journalist).
> 
> Britain Is Heading Into a Nightmarish Winter





> Not long ago, as Prime Minister Boris Johnson lifted all pandemic restrictions in July, the mood across the country was cautiously optimistic.



Not in my house it wasn't.


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## ska invita (Oct 2, 2021)

bimble said:


> great news, nobody from Europe can visit here unless they first buy a passport. (Estimated to be about 200 million people who have the Id cards but not a passport).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


it is most worrying to me because there are hundreds of thousands of EU citizens living here with their sketchy settled and presettled status who only have ID cards, adding another level of precarity.
also i haven't heard about this rule change other than on here - lots of people will be unaware,
can you now leave the UK to the EU on an ID card like you used to? Maybe yes, though you certainly cant return.
mad situation


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Oct 2, 2021)

It appears that it’s not only Britain that faces a ‘nightmare winter’ due to a shortage of energy, labour and transport. Who knew? 









						‘A perfect storm’: supply chain crisis could blow world economy off course
					

From Liverpool to LA, shortages of energy, labour and transport are threatening recovery from Covid




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## xenon (Oct 2, 2021)

And now they are insecure ID cards. Last year, they were just ID cards. Now supposedly they are a security problem.


----------



## bimble (Oct 2, 2021)

ska invita said:


> it is most worrying to me because there are many EU citizens living here with their sketchy settled and presettled status who only have ID cards, adding another level of precarity.
> also i haven't heard about this rule change other than on hear - lots of people will be unaware,
> can you leave the UK to the EU on an ID card? Maybe yes, though you certainly cant return.
> mad situation


I hadn't heard of it before either and it came into force yesterday. The government website seems to have published the announcement just yesterday too. Which seems not genius.


----------



## ska invita (Oct 2, 2021)

re Turkeys ive seen a scramble over turkeys in a supermarlet before...it msutve been xmas eve or the day before....none out on the shelves...then some got wheeled out from storage and a mob of about 20 people who were waiting by the dooors descended on the cart...it never reached the shelves and there were less turkeys than customers

 Theres going to be some scenes id expect


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 2, 2021)

bimble said:


> I haven't forgotten. Am still excited to go and look at the lables. I don't know how long it takes to create a turkey, will France & Poland just have a million spare birds sitting around ? It is intriguing.


I'm really surprised you posted the Poland France article and not this one Subscribe to read | Financial Times


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## The39thStep (Oct 2, 2021)

ska invita said:


> it is most worrying to me because there are many EU citizens living here with their sketchy settled and presettled status who only have ID cards, adding another level of precarity.
> also i haven't heard about this rule change other than on hear - lots of people will be unaware,
> can you leave the UK to the EU on an ID card? Maybe yes, though you certainly cant return.
> mad situation



I was speaking to a Portuguese family last night who live and work  in Cambridge about this. They said they'd been advised by the Portuguese embassy that those with settled and pre settled  can still use ID cards for travel in and out of the UK until 2025 .

Over here we all  have to apply for new biometric residency cards , including fingerprints , as part of an EU crackdown on fraud cards


----------



## bimble (Oct 2, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> I'm really surprised you posted the Poland France article and not this one Subscribe to read | Financial Times
> 
> View attachment 290936


why? i thought you knew that i have a special interest in Turkeys, that pointless symbolic bird.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 2, 2021)

bimble said:


> why? i thought you knew that i have a special interest in Turkeys, that pointless symbolic bird.


The article addresses that point, namely that even if they start now French and polish farmers will be very lucky to get the birds into Britain.


----------



## ska invita (Oct 2, 2021)

philosophical said:


> Shame.
> Was hoping everybody would try a vegetarian Christmas.
> After they come back from the previous nights midnight Mass where they respect the commandment ‘thou shalt not kill’.
> I mean Christmas is supposed to be a Christian religious event in it’s origins.


"Catholics were expected to abstain from eating meat or products derived from animals such as butter or dairy on Fridays and holy days. Christmas Eve being one of the designated days on which to abstain, most good Catholics would eat fish, *typically cooked in oil*."

...what do Irish Catholics eat at xmas?


----------



## Artaxerxes (Oct 2, 2021)

ska invita said:


> re Turkeys ive seen a scramble over turkeys in a supermarlet before...it msutve been xmas eve or the day before....none out on the shelves...then some got wheeled out from storage and a mob of about 20 people who were waiting by the dooors descended on the cart...it never reached the shelves and there were less turkeys than customers
> 
> Theres going to be some scenes id expect



The supermarkets become increasingly feral the closer you get to Christmas even at the best of times


----------



## ska invita (Oct 2, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> I was speaking to a Portuguese family last night who live and work  in Cambridge about this. They said they'd been advised by the Portuguese embassy that those with settled and pre settled  can still use ID cards for travel in and out of the UK until 2025 .
> 
> Over here we all  have to apply for new biometric residency cards , including fingerprints , as part of an EU crackdown on fraud cards


 
i hope this works
if border control are stopping travel on ID cards, then the only way you can still get in on an ID card is by proving pre/settled status
there are already stories that this status information is only available to border control via passport details


----------



## SpookyFrank (Oct 2, 2021)

xenon said:


> And now they are insecure ID cards. Last year, they were just ID cards. Now supposedly they are a security problem.



Wasn't that long ago you could get an Italian travel pass that was little more than a fold of printed cardboard with a passport photo glued onto it. I knew a few people from outside Europe who made it to the UK with a bootleg version of this document and a bogus Italian name. One guy had simply stuck a vowel on the end of his very obviously slavic surname and that somehow did the trick.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 2, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> Wasn't that long ago you could get an Italian travel pass that was little more than a fold of printed cardboard with a passport photo glued onto it. I knew a few people from outside Europe who made it to the UK with a bootleg version of this document and a bogus Italian name. One guy had simply stuck a vowel on the end of his very obviously slavic surname and that somehow did the trick.


Like the auld one year passports


----------



## bimble (Oct 2, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> The article addresses that point, namely that even if they start now French and polish farmers will be very lucky to get the birds into Britain.
> View attachment 290937


lol at 'its not clear whether EVEN turkey supplies will be protected', as if that silly traditional meal on that one day is the most important thing. This is why my Brazil theory, Johnson knows that whilst people might we willing to ignore a chronic shortage of chicken or whatever, and just eat something else instead, leaving this proud nation turkeyless on xmas day would be serious.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Oct 2, 2021)

Anyway, at some point the government might well have to step in and prioritise deliveries of food and other essentials. Which would be yet another case of a fanatical free marketeer government shitting the bed to the point where it ends up being forced to do state communism instead.


----------



## philosophical (Oct 2, 2021)

ska invita said:


> "Catholics were expected to abstain from eating meat or products derived from animals such as butter or dairy on Fridays and holy days. Christmas Eve being one of the designated days on which to abstain, most good Catholics would eat fish, *typically cooked in oil*."
> 
> ...what do Irish Catholics eat at xmas?



Cabbage and potato maybe.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 2, 2021)

bimble said:


> lol at 'its not clear whether EVEN turkey supplies will be protected', as if that silly traditional meal on that one day is the most important thing. This is why my Brazil theory, Johnson knows that whilst people might we willing to ignore a chronic shortage of chicken or whatever, and just eat something else instead, leaving this proud nation turkeyless on xmas day would be serious.


Yeh your Brazil theory doesn't hold water because a) they don't really export here anyway, b) Brazil's is not a command economy, c) if the amount of time it takes stuff to get here from Asia has doubled, if the cost of a shipping container from Asia has gone up 14 times to $18,000 dollars, don't you think that there may be some delays and cost implications for putative poultry exports from Brazil? Add to that that the warehouses in UK ports are pretty much full, that there are difficulties ATM with moving round stuff already in the country, and it seems to me obvious that this notion is a non-starter.


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 2, 2021)

One of the best things about moving to Portugal is that they don't eat the shite traditional roast turkey dinner at Xmas that I must have had every bloody year in the UK


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 2, 2021)

.


----------



## bimble (Oct 2, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Yeh your Brazil theory doesn't hold water because a) they don't really export here anyway, b) Brazil's is not a command economy, c) if the amount of time it takes stuff to get here from Asia has doubled, if the cost of a shipping container from Asia has gone up 14 times to $18,000 dollars, don't you think that there may be some delays and cost implications for putative poultry exports from Brazil? Add to that that the warehouses in UK ports are pretty much full, that there are difficulties ATM with moving round stuff already in the country, and it seems to me obvious that this notion is a non-starter.



What do you think Johnson asked Bolsonaro for ?
Just found this, hadn't seen it before:








						Boris Johnson asked for ‘emergency’ food deal, says Bolsonaro
					

No 10 denies Brazilian president’s claim but some speculate food item is turkeys for Christmas




					www.theguardian.com
				



I'm not saying it would work, just think it (turkeys on xmas day) is a topic that bothers the PM, a lot more than it should, & a lot more than what there is for schools and care homes to feed people day to day.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 2, 2021)

philosophical said:


> Shame.
> Was hoping everybody would try a vegetarian Christmas.
> After they come back from the previous nights midnight Mass where they respect the commandment ‘thou shalt not kill’.
> I mean Christmas is supposed to be a Christian religious event in it’s origins.


Are you a Christian?


----------



## ska invita (Oct 2, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> Wasn't that long ago you could get an Italian travel pass that was little more than a fold of printed cardboard with a passport photo glued onto it. I knew a few people from outside Europe who made it to the UK with a bootleg version of this document and a bogus Italian name. One guy had simply stuck a vowel on the end of his very obviously slavic surname and that somehow did the trick.


Proper ID cards though are as hard to get as passports and increasingly include biometric details


----------



## Badgers (Oct 2, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> One of the best things about moving to Portugal is that they don't eat the shite traditional roast turkey dinner at Xmas that I must have had every bloody year in the UK


I see it as ironic annual torment


----------



## SpookyFrank (Oct 2, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Proper ID cards though are as hard to get as passports and increasingly include biometric details



Yes this is the direction of travel (no pun intended) everywhere.


----------



## Badgers (Oct 2, 2021)

bimble said:


> What do you think Johnson asked Bolsonaro for ?
> Just found this, hadn't seen it before:
> 
> I'm not saying it would work, just think it (turkeys on xmas day) is a topic that bothers the PM, a lot more than it should, & a lot more than what there is for schools and care homes to feed people day to day.



SAVING CHRISTMAS


----------



## bimble (Oct 2, 2021)

Badgers said:


> I see it as ironic annual torment


it is traditional for jews to get a Chinese takeaway on that day but last year i did the whole xmas thing, 3 of us, one small mini-chicken each.


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 2, 2021)

Badgers said:


> I see it as ironic annual torment


Funny thing is that I like turkey any other time of the year.


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 2, 2021)

andysays said:


> I have C1 and C1E (but not C or CE) on my licence. Does that mean I can drive up to 7.5 tonne?



Yes. And ambulances.

Everyone who got their licences before 1997 will have it.



> I haven't had a letter either though, so I suppose it's all hypothetical anyway.



I haven't either so they must have filtered them in some way. In cupid_stunt's case they probably excluded everyone born in the eighteen hundreds.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Oct 2, 2021)

bimble said:


> What do you think Johnson asked Bolsonaro for ?
> Just found this, hadn't seen it before:
> 
> 
> ...



Starving schoolkids and people in care homes doesn't lead to shitty front pages in the tabloids though. Ruining Christmas on the other hand.

Also care homes need less food than they used to because Johnson's government has already killed so many of their residents.


----------



## Cerv (Oct 2, 2021)

Cerv said:


> Might as well start a pool now on picking what date they’ll announce that the the visa allowance will be extended beyond 24/12.
> 
> I’m taking 23/12



I couldn't have been more wrong! as they've announced yesterday that these temporary visas will extend into Feb or March.


----------



## Badgers (Oct 2, 2021)

Cerv said:


> I couldn't have been more wrong! as they've announced yesterday that these temporary visas will extend into Feb or March.


Everything will be fine by then


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 2, 2021)

bimble said:


> What do you think Johnson asked Bolsonaro for ?
> Just found this, hadn't seen it before:
> 
> 
> ...


If bolsonaro came to Britain and asked for ten thousand tons of cabbage or hops to save Brazil's Xmas he'd be laughed at and rightly so. People would chortle about how that wasn't in the PM's gift. And it's not really in bolsonaro's gift to sort out untold turkeys for Johnson.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Oct 2, 2021)

andysays said:


> I have C1 and C1E (but not C or CE) on my licence. Does that mean I can drive up to 7.5 tonne?
> 
> I regularly drive a 3.5 tonne at work, but wouldn't want to go any bigger than that, certainly not without additional training.
> 
> I haven't had a letter either though, so I suppose it's all hypothetical anyway.



Yes,

Like you I can cope with 3.5 tonne, but 7,5 tonne was bloody scary, especially in Bristol city centre.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Oct 2, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Yes. And ambulances.
> 
> Everyone who got their licences before 1997 will have it.
> 
> I haven't either so they must have filtered them in some way. In cupid_stunt's case they probably excluded everyone born in the eighteen hundreds.



Rearrange these words 'off' and 'fuck'.


----------



## Badgers (Oct 2, 2021)

A brexiteer helping the country recently


----------



## krtek a houby (Oct 2, 2021)

ska invita said:


> "Catholics were expected to abstain from eating meat or products derived from animals such as butter or dairy on Fridays and holy days. Christmas Eve being one of the designated days on which to abstain, most good Catholics would eat fish, *typically cooked in oil*."
> 
> ...what do Irish Catholics eat at xmas?



The body of Christ with Brussel sprouts


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 2, 2021)

ska invita said:


> "Catholics were expected to abstain from eating meat or products derived from animals such as butter or dairy on Fridays and holy days. Christmas Eve being one of the designated days on which to abstain, most good Catholics would eat fish, *typically cooked in oil*."
> 
> ...what do Irish Catholics eat at xmas?



Puffins

with Cabbage


----------



## krtek a houby (Oct 2, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> Puffins
> 
> with Cabbage



Protected in Ireland, afaik. Iceland, mebbe.


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 2, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> Protected in Ireland, afaik. Iceland, mebbe.



aye but were labelled as fish by the catholic church back in the day so you could eat them on fridays


----------



## teqniq (Oct 2, 2021)

According to a reply, apparently published in The Times:


----------



## bluescreen (Oct 2, 2021)

bimble said:


> was Jesus a vegetarian?


If he wasn't a pescatarian at least he expected other people to be.


----------



## krtek a houby (Oct 2, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> aye but were labelled as fish by the catholic church back in the day so you could eat them on fridays



They do taste fishy, oddly enough


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Oct 2, 2021)

andysays said:


> I have C1 and C1E (but not C or CE) on my licence. Does that mean I can drive up to 7.5 tonne?
> 
> I regularly drive a 3.5 tonne at work, but wouldn't want to go any bigger than that, certainly not without additional training.
> 
> I haven't had a letter either though, so I suppose it's all hypothetical anyway.



if you have C1 (presume you passed your car test before 1997) then yes - although as someone else has mentioned, you would probably need to do the driver CPC (5 days of theory training) before you did it commercially.  

Although the CPC was an EU idea - UK government could probably in theory suspend or abolish the requirement, although that might cause issues with UK commercial drivers' licences not being considered acceptable in EU countries. 

And you would probably need to get a tachograph card as well

(It's a very long time since I've been involved in freight transport)



Spymaster said:


> Everyone who got their licences before 1997 will have it.



I haven't had my letter yet.  Maybe they _are _prioritising Germans and paramedics...


----------



## philosophical (Oct 2, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Are you a Christian?


I have no idea.
How is Christian defined?


----------



## ska invita (Oct 2, 2021)

philosophical said:


> I have no idea.
> How is Christian defined?


very philosophical


----------



## Chz (Oct 2, 2021)

ska invita said:


> "Catholics were expected to abstain from eating meat or products derived from animals such as butter or dairy on Fridays and holy days. Christmas Eve being one of the designated days on which to abstain, most good Catholics would eat fish, *typically cooked in oil*."
> 
> ...what do Irish Catholics eat at xmas?


Can't comment on the Irish, but as a half-Pole I always found the Christmas Eve "fast" hilarious. It's a fast in that there's no meat or dairy, but there are *twelve* courses. Which, to me, defeats the point of fasting; but what do I know? I love the little mushroom pierogi, whatever they're called, in barszcz, and would be happy to just eat that all evening. It's mainly herring, carp, potatoes, cabbage, and mushrooms. Done 12 ways.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 2, 2021)

philosophical said:


> I have no idea.
> How is Christian defined?


Are you pretending to be this thick?


----------



## MrSki (Oct 2, 2021)

Just to recap after 264 pages, does anyone actually still think Brexit has been good for the UK & those living there? 

On a side note please post the positives if the list is not too long.


----------



## philosophical (Oct 2, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Are you pretending to be this thick?


For a start there are loads of so called Christian denominations that define being a Christian differently.
Different groups demand different practices.
Scholars go back and forth over the Bible arguing translations and interpretations.
Perhaps that’s something you didn’t know.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 2, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Are you pretending to be this thick?


It's no pretence


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 2, 2021)

philosophical said:


> For a start there are loads of so called Christian denominations that define being a Christian differently.
> Different groups demand different practices.
> Scholars go back and forth over the Bible arguing translations and interpretations.
> Perhaps that’s something you didn’t know.



the name of the religion is bit of a give away regardless of denominations, the main belief being jesus is the only begotten son of the lord


----------



## philosophical (Oct 2, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> the name of the religion is bit of a give away regardless of denominations, the main belief being jesus is the only begotten son of the lord


I thought the main belief was ‘thou shalt not kill’.


----------



## bimble (Oct 2, 2021)

philosophical said:


> I thought the main belief was ‘thou shalt not kill’.


Don’t be daft. Nobody takes that bit seriously, look at the crusades.


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 2, 2021)

philosophical said:


> I thought the main belief was ‘thou shalt not kill’.



look up the ten commandments

their feature in some way in all 3 of Abrahamic religions, the main belief of Christian is about the Jesus dude being the son of god

HTH


----------



## gosub (Oct 2, 2021)

philosophical said:


> I thought the main belief was ‘thou shalt not kill’.


You mean from the old testaments' 10 commandments that in foundationary for all Abrahamic religions.


(/why bother0


----------



## philosophical (Oct 2, 2021)

I think the sanctity of life is a feature of all religions, like Hinduism or Buddhism for instance.


----------



## bimble (Oct 2, 2021)

The Jains, they’re proper, they wouldn’t eat a turkey.


----------



## Carvaged (Oct 2, 2021)

Breckshit just gets better and better. Hopefully there'll be a shortage of air soon and we'll all just quietly pass off into that halcyon distant past/future we were promised in the glossy farageflyers...


----------



## Raheem (Oct 2, 2021)

bimble said:


> The Jains, they’re proper, they wouldn’t eat a turkey.


If they also drive trucks, they're the perfect post-Brexit religion.


----------



## bimble (Oct 2, 2021)

the government's shortage occupations list has massively expanded already since i last looked at it, now says "All jobs" in these broad sectors are exemptions from the new immigration rules, what is going on there, where did our engineers come from.


----------



## two sheds (Oct 2, 2021)

Raheem said:


> If they also drive trucks, they're the perfect post-Brexit religion.


difficult - they'd have to get out and sweep the path for insects, besides driving at a speed slow enough not to flatten them on the windscreen


----------



## Artaxerxes (Oct 2, 2021)

"brexit might not work but it'll still be great"


----------



## teqniq (Oct 2, 2021)




----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 2, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> look up the ten commandments
> 
> their feature in some way in all 3 of Abrahamic religions, the main belief of Christian is about the Jesus dude being the son of god
> 
> HTH




There are more than three Abrahamic religions, I discovered earlier this year. Rastafarianism is also one…


----------



## Raheem (Oct 2, 2021)

teqniq said:


>



Rose Royce are playing cards at the carwash.


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 2, 2021)

Rastafarianism  believe in jesus being the son of god  fall under christians

if he is a phrophet it another religion


----------



## bimble (Oct 2, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> "brexit might not work but it'll still be great"



eh? he thinks Brexit was an attempt to get a serious government? On that count it has failed to a degree that i cant even laugh about. Brexit is what gave these malevolent clowns the power they have, this right now is the brexit government, elected by brexiteers to get brexit done.


----------



## Raheem (Oct 2, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> Rastafarianism  believe in jesus being the son of god  fall under christians
> 
> if he is a phrophet it another religion


It is true that many Rastas have beliefs which are compatible with Christianity to a very large extent. However, I think Rastas generally/always believe that the biblical account of Jesus's life is a false one, and that the real Jesus was an African. That's why they are not normally considered Christians.


----------



## bimble (Oct 2, 2021)

rastafarianism has more to do with hinduism than with jesus but thats a whole nother thread.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Oct 2, 2021)

bimble said:


> eh? he thinks Brexit was an attempt to get a serious government? On that count it has failed to a degree that i cant even laugh about. Brexit is what gave these malevolent clowns the power they have, this right now is the brexit government, elected by brexiteers to get brexit done.



For Mr Cummings assume "a serious government" is one where he's calling the shots.


----------



## bimble (Oct 2, 2021)

Baffling trying to guess what Cummings meant, unless it’s that the magnitude of the change would somehow magic up a government able to deal with it imaginatively & competently but then yeah as he says brexit might not work.


----------



## ska invita (Oct 2, 2021)

hah mans reduced to chatting shite on twitter


----------



## krtek a houby (Oct 2, 2021)

teqniq said:


>




Do hope that Top of the Pops isn't affected


----------



## Smangus (Oct 2, 2021)

Brexit led to theological musings, only on Urban 🙂


----------



## A380 (Oct 2, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> There are more than three Abrahamic religions, I discovered earlier this year. Rastafarianism is also one…



Seven I believe:

Judaism
Christianity
Islam
Baháʼí Faith
Druze Faith
Rastafari
Samaritanism

Up there with naming all the actors who played Doctor Who.


----------



## xenon (Oct 2, 2021)

ska invita said:


> hah mans reduced to chatting shite on twitter



Exactly, he’s just on a public self aggrandising ego trip. Self actualisation. I know loads of stuff, I will provide explosive evidence, the master plan of brexit.

This is the guy that went back to edit his blog to make it look like he was Nostra fucking dharmas. Sad.


----------



## ska invita (Oct 2, 2021)

xenon said:


> Exactly, he’s just on a public self aggrandising ego trip. Self actualisation. I know loads of stuff, I will be explosive evidence, the master plan of brexit.
> 
> This is the guy that went back to edit his blog to make it look like he was Nostra fucking dharmas. Sad.


seeing him being apologist for brexit ('hey it might be shit but...') a new comedy low
so washed up


----------



## xenon (Oct 2, 2021)

Super talented weirdo. where’s all this dirt  he was supposed to have. The stuff in that box. always records meetings.  He is just some muttering  could’ve been a contender, bore in the corner of the pub. Shut up Dom.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 3, 2021)

Some polling:



As ever, with the usual caveats...I can imagine quite a few remainers thinking the tory shitshow represents brexit 'going well'.


----------



## bimble (Oct 3, 2021)

Three quarters of leave voters think it's all going according to plan / better than they expected?


----------



## andysays (Oct 3, 2021)

bimble said:


> Three quarters of leave voters think it's all going according to plan / better than they expected?


Where do you get that from?

According to the graph, 54% of Leave voters think it's going well, compared to 37% of Leave voters who think it's going badly.

We can discuss what that means, but let's at least not blatantly misrepresent the numbers when they're there in front of us


----------



## bimble (Oct 3, 2021)

just the writing that says 26% of leave voters say it's gone worse than expected.
Maybe there were a lot of don't knows, i cant find the actual data.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 3, 2021)

The 18% who responded that brexit is having a positive effect on salaries/wages sometimes seem a little over-represented on this thread?


----------



## brogdale (Oct 3, 2021)

Surprising to see 11% who think it's having a good impact on prices in shops.
Diehard leavers in denial or just don't go shopping...or maybe misinterpreted the wording of the Q?


----------



## bimble (Oct 3, 2021)

36% of leave voters were saying a couple of weeks ago that they feel the government is handling brexit well, so who knows.








						How the government is handling the issue of Brexit in the UK
					

How well or badly do you think the government is handling the following issues? Britain's exit from the EU




					yougov.co.uk


----------



## Dogsauce (Oct 3, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Surprising to see 11% who think it's having a good impact on prices in shops.
> Diehard leavers in denial or just don't go shopping...or maybe misinterpreted the wording of the Q?


Shopkeepers maybe? Higher prices would be a positive.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 3, 2021)

Dogsauce said:


> Shopkeepers maybe? Higher prices would be a positive.


Maybe, but turnover (profit) also depends on the elasticity of demand of what they retail.


----------



## MrSki (Oct 3, 2021)

Dogsauce said:


> Shopkeepers maybe? Higher prices would be a positive.


Not if their wholesale price has risen. Does not go down well with punters when the prices rise.


----------



## bimble (Oct 3, 2021)

last time i saw a poll on brexit and food shopping, you could click to make it show men and women's opinions separately, and men were the ones saying they'd not noticed any issues. From this i just assumed they don't do the shopping.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 3, 2021)

bimble said:


> last time i saw a poll on brexit and food shopping, you could click to make it show men and women's opinions separately, and men were the ones saying they'd not noticed any issues. From this i just assumed they don't do the shopping.


When we can get access to the raw data spreadsheets we might be able to see if that's the case; unfortunately I can't yet find the raw.


----------



## ska invita (Oct 3, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Surprising to see 11% who think it's having a good impact on prices in shops.
> Diehard leavers in denial or just don't go shopping...or maybe misinterpreted the wording of the Q?


the rich home county Leave voters wouldnt know the price of something if they paid for it


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 3, 2021)

What i like about this site is that sometimes when you see something  , as in this case a poll, it prompts you to look up more polls. This is Opiniums's post Starmer speech poll;


----------



## brogdale (Oct 3, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> What i like about this site is that sometimes when you see something  , as in this case a poll, it prompts you to look up more polls. This is Opiniums's post Starmer speech poll;



Yeah, but the relevance to brexit?


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 3, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Yeah, but the relevance to brexit?


Where were you when we had the discussion here on this thread about Abrahamic religions?


----------



## gosub (Oct 3, 2021)

ska invita said:


> the rich home county Leave voters wouldnt know the price of something if they paid for it


Tell me about it gward multi millionaire in the pub the other night banging on about the cushy number carers are on driving around in their company cars...

Walked away; None of the carers that came round in last few months have had company cars


----------



## ska invita (Oct 3, 2021)

gosub said:


> Tell me about it gward multi millionaire in the pub the other night banging on about the cushy number carers are on driving around in their company cars...
> 
> Walked away; None of the carers that came round in last few months have had company cars



its a hellish low paid job
i wonder where he got the notion from
sounds like a great pub


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Oct 3, 2021)

gosub said:


> Tell me about it gward multi millionaire in the pub the other night banging on about the cushy number carers are on driving around in their company cars...
> 
> Walked away; None of the carers that came round in last few months have had company cars





is this an extension of the scheme (that is occasionally talked about in pubs) where illegal immigrants are "all given free cars" and so on?


----------



## gosub (Oct 3, 2021)

ska invita said:


> its a hellish low paid job
> i wonder where he got the notion from
> sounds like a great pub


It's slowly coming back ..now they've finally driven the last set of landlords out...  Tried being openly gay  and running a pub.  Can you imagine , the village was still reeling from an Asian thnking he could run a pub .


I fucking hate it here.


----------



## gosub (Oct 3, 2021)

Puddy_Tat said:


> is this an extension of the scheme (that is occasionally talked about in pubs) where illegal immigrants are "all given free cars" and so on?


I have seen a couple of branded cars about, so they do exist.  I think theyd  seen them and decided that was the norm


----------



## 19sixtysix (Oct 3, 2021)

My mood today

Deer happy brexiteers. Its shit and I'd like to leave the country and live in a normal country but you fuckers have made that harder than it's ever been and I'm stuck here with you while some of my family are now the other side of the stupid border. You are all cunts. kindest regards 19sixtysix


----------



## MrSki (Oct 3, 2021)

19sixtysix said:


> My mood today
> 
> Deer happy brexiteers. Its shit and I'd like to leave the country and live in a normal country but you fuckers have made that harder than it's ever been and I'm stuck here with you while some of my family are now the other side of the stupid border. You are all cunts. kindest regards 19sixtysix


Still some twat we be along shortly defending Brexit & how it has benefited the working class. The whole Brexit shitshow has fucked this country & I can't see it getting better any time soon. 

Sorry for you mood 19sixtysix Hope it improves as the day grows old. About to pop down the supermarket to see what is on offer today.


----------



## 19sixtysix (Oct 3, 2021)

MrSki said:


> Still some twat we be along shortly defending Brexit & how it has benefited the working class. The whole Brexit shitshow has fucked this country & I can't see it getting better any time soon.
> 
> Sorry for you mood 19sixtysix Hope it improves as the day grows old. About to pop down the supermarket to see what is on offer today.


At least I have a retort when these fuckers say why don't you leave if you don't like it.


----------



## bimble (Oct 3, 2021)

i hate this man, his absolute contempt for all of us.


----------



## Supine (Oct 3, 2021)

On wages


----------



## TopCat (Oct 3, 2021)

ska invita said:


> the rich home county Leave voters wouldnt know the price of something if they paid for it


Nor would rich Home Counties remainers. The rich per se are arses.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 3, 2021)

19sixtysix said:


> My mood today
> 
> Deer happy brexiteers. Its shit and I'd like to leave the country and live in a normal country but you fuckers have made that harder than it's ever been and I'm stuck here with you while some of my family are now the other side of the stupid border. You are all cunts. kindest regards 19sixtysix


Waves


----------



## brogdale (Oct 3, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Nor would rich Home Counties remainers. The rich per se are arses.


Yes, true and the 11% cohort were from the whole sample, not a L or R subset.


----------



## bimble (Oct 3, 2021)

19sixtysix said:


> My mood today
> 
> Deer happy brexiteers. Its shit and I'd like to leave the country and live in a normal country but you fuckers have made that harder than it's ever been and I'm stuck here with you while some of my family are now the other side of the stupid border. You are all cunts. kindest regards 19sixtysix


I think you could move to Ireland. Someone was explaining to me that you don’t need any Irish ancestry for that you can just go, like a mini free movement.








						Common Travel Area - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				



He was saying he thinks big numbers of English will be doing that over the coming years.


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 3, 2021)

19sixtysix said:


> At least I have a retort …



Which is better than having a test tube.


----------



## Badgers (Oct 3, 2021)

bimble said:


> I think you could move to Ireland. Someone was explaining to me that you don’t need any Irish ancestry for that you can just go, like a mini free movement.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Another Celtic Tiger incoming 🙄


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 3, 2021)

bimble said:


> I think you could move to Ireland. Someone was explaining to me that you don’t need any Irish ancestry for that you can just go, like a mini free movement.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


(((((the irish)))))


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 3, 2021)

MrSki said:


> Still some twat we be along shortly defending Brexit & how it has benefited the working class. The whole Brexit shitshow has fucked this country & I can't see it getting better any time soon.
> 
> Sorry for you mood 19sixtysix Hope it improves as the day grows old. About to pop down the supermarket to see what is on offer today.


no penne in the dalston sainsbury's today. but a load of fusilli


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 3, 2021)

bimble said:


> i hate this man, his absolute contempt for all of us.



yeh i think his competence as an interviewer leaves a great deal to be desired.


----------



## bimble (Oct 3, 2021)

Yeah. Mass migration of brits would not be great for Ireland imo. They already have their own housing price issues without a hundred thousand pissed off remoaners turning up.

The thing that would push me to actually looking to leave my home (and use my Eu member state citizenship) would be any moves by the government here to try to make it harder to leave.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 3, 2021)

bimble said:


> Yeah. Mass migration of brits would not be great for Ireland imo. They already have their own housing price issues without a hundred thousand pissed off remoaners turning up.
> 
> The thing that would push me to actually looking to leave my home (and use my Eu member state citizenship) would be any moves by the government here to try to make it harder to leave.


you could always take a dinghy across to france, that'll be the direction of travel in the future


----------



## TopCat (Oct 3, 2021)

bimble said:


> Yeah. Mass migration of brits would not be great for Ireland imo. They already have their own housing price issues without a hundred thousand pissed off remoaners turning up.
> 
> The thing that would push me to actually looking to leave my home (and use my Eu member state citizenship) would be any moves by the government here to try to make it harder to leave.


You obviously have concerns. How do you fear the govt might restrict emigration?


----------



## bimble (Oct 3, 2021)

TopCat said:


> You obviously have concerns. How do you fear the govt might restrict emigration?


Migration bans are a thing, obviously much rarer than immigration controls. My dad for instance was an illegal emigrant (from eastern bloc to here). It seems unlikely right now but as Boris Johnson says in answer to every question about planning ahead, let’s wait and see what happens.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 3, 2021)

TopCat said:


> You obviously have concerns. How do you fear the govt might restrict emigration?


Maybe an Anti-Fascist Protection Rampart protecting the population from the fascist elements conspiring to prevent the "will of the people" from building a state independent of the Union.


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 3, 2021)

bimble said:


> I think you could move to Ireland. Someone was explaining to me that you don’t need any Irish ancestry for that you can just go, like a mini free movement.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Don't be encouraging them


----------



## bimble (Oct 3, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Maybe an Anti-Fascist Protection Rampart protecting the population from the fascist elements conspiring to prevent the "will of the people" from building a state independent of the Union.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 3, 2021)

bimble said:


> View attachment 291112


Gosh, the situations are so similar.


----------



## bimble (Oct 3, 2021)

Brexiteers, always so serious.


----------



## MrSki (Oct 3, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Gosh, the situations are so similar.


Come on then TopCat what is actually better for you? Same question to all the Brexit posters. What is better or do you just enjoy the lack of choice when you go shopping?


----------



## brogdale (Oct 3, 2021)

bimble said:


> Brexiteers, always so serious.


Leavemoaners


----------



## TopCat (Oct 3, 2021)

MrSki said:


> Come on then TopCat what is actually better for you? Same question to all the Brexit posters. What is better or do you just enjoy the lack of choice when you go shopping?


We are no longer members of the EU with all that entails.


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 3, 2021)

just leave this here


----------



## TopCat (Oct 3, 2021)

Plus I had an issue buying semi skimmed milk yesterday. The first shortage I faced. Pals are getting wage rises.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 3, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> just leave this here



That is more shit than most you post.


----------



## bimble (Oct 3, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Leavemoaners


i think you were right earlier, on average remoaners are having a better time of it at the moment, with brexit as manifested, than leavers are. Even Johnson looks miserable as fuck.


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 3, 2021)

TopCat said:


> That is more shit than most you post.



i found it funny


----------



## TopCat (Oct 3, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> i found it funny


In your remain bubble. Hehe.


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 3, 2021)

Remain Bubble?

do explain how am i in a bubble, is it all going terrible well?
are the remainers working underhandly to hide the benifts were all suppose to have gotten?


----------



## MrSki (Oct 3, 2021)

TopCat said:


> We are no longer members of the EU with all that entails.


Yeah it is great isn't it. I don't drive so am not impacted by the fuel problems but the rest of it is fucking great.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 3, 2021)

MrSki said:


> Yeah it is great isn't it. I don't drive so am not impacted by the fuel problems but the rest of it is fucking great.


Not feeling the control promised those already in control and completely unwilling to relinquish it?


----------



## bimble (Oct 3, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Plus I had an issue buying semi skimmed milk yesterday.


what did you do? did you buy the blue top one?


----------



## brogdale (Oct 3, 2021)

Tory primitivists.


----------



## bimble (Oct 3, 2021)

Bucolic. Everyone will move to a nice cottage in the countryside and we will once again sing good British songs at harvest time.


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 3, 2021)

Loder is a member of the comman sense Tory Group so daft fuck with from the backends of Dorset who want us all to go back to living in the 1950s

when he is not worrying about woke people trying to get the National trust to point out that some of the people from Britians past might of been a bit racist

oddly was  brexiter as well


----------



## gosub (Oct 3, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Not feeling the control promised those already in control and completely unwilling to relinquish it?


 So we ended up with Juncker as 'democratically elected 'Head of the Commission despite UK objections over such things as his party didn't stand in the UK EUro elections (ditched that idea after Uk left for von der Leyen), Cameron tried to veto consolidation of EUrozone, got ignored so he traded allowing EUrozone members to be quorum for whatever immigration nonsense he came up with. UK government wasn't really in control....though I grant you whole thing did show up the anti-parliamentary tendencies of those who end up running HMG,, tendencies that had in the past enable the EU's one way ratchet.


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 3, 2021)

MrSki said:


> Come on then TopCat what is actually better for you? Same question to all the Brexit posters. What is better or do you just enjoy the lack of choice when you go shopping?



I didn't vote to leave but one of the things I enjoy most about having done so is the bitterness and sour grapes posting from remoaniacs.  A small win admittedly but I do quite enjoy the utterly parsimonious witterings on here.

Other than that, what's better for most leavers is the fact that the country is no longer part of a political organisation whose leadership and politics they disagree with. Now I know you're going to say 'but, but, but, Tory government ... blah blah etc", but that's not a reason not to leave the EU. If you're lying on the floor and one robber has their foot on your throat whilst another has a knee in your bollocks; if you can only get rid of the one on your nuts it's still a good idea.

If your parents had signed you up to the Tory party when you were a kid without your consent, wouldn't you leave when you got the chance?


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 3, 2021)

at using  utterly parsimonious wittering before typing the second paragraph


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Oct 3, 2021)

“parsimonious” - word of the weekend that Spy!


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 3, 2021)

Could be a speech writer for Bojo with shite like that


----------



## MrSki (Oct 3, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> I didn't vote to leave but one of the things I enjoy most about having done so is the bitterness and sour grapes posting from remoaniacs.  A small win admittedly but I do quite enjoy the utterly parsimonious witterings on here.
> 
> Other than that, what's better for most leavers is the fact that the country is no longer part of a political organisation whose leadership and politics they disagree with. Now I know you're going to say 'but, but, but, Tory government ... blah blah etc", but that's not a reason not to leave the EU. If you're lying on the floor and one robber has their foot on your throat whilst another has a knee in your bollocks, getting rid of the one on your nuts when you can is a good idea.
> 
> If your parents had signed you up to the Tory party when you were a kid without your consent, wouldn't you leave when you got the chance?





> What a pile of shite





> Is the UK better off after leaving? If so please post the positives so we can all enjoy them.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 3, 2021)

bimble said:


> what did you do? did you buy the blue top one?


I had plenty of that. I got red top. Looks like water with a bit of paint in it. No idea why people have an issue with fat.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 3, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> Could be a speech writer for Bojo with shite like that


He says what he thinks without shit memes.


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 3, 2021)

TopCat said:


> He says what he thinks without shit memes.



you just don't like it cause you are stuck in your "leaver Bubble"

also go look up my post of this thread 211 post so far the ration of meme's is very low


----------



## MrSki (Oct 3, 2021)

TopCat said:


> He says what he thinks without shit memes.


Come on then post the positives.


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 3, 2021)

Mr.Bishie said:


> “parsimonious” - word of the weekend that Spy!



Cheers mate!


----------



## TopCat (Oct 3, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> you just don't like it cause you are stuck in your "leaver Bubble"


No leave bubble here in TopCat land. I live in the real world. My daughter swore at me when the result came through, my mother says she despairs, my ex gf voted remain as did all her pals etc etc. It’s all a bit better natured than here though.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 3, 2021)

MrSki said:


> Come on then post the positives.


I answered you, your response is just to repeat yourself. Again. And again. And again.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 3, 2021)

TopCat said:


> I answered you, your response is just to repeat yourself. Again. And again. And again.


Like a scratched record


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 3, 2021)

TopCat said:


> No leave bubble here in TopCat land. I live in the real world. My daughter swore at me when the result came through, my mother says she despairs, my ex gf voted remain as did all her pals etc etc. It’s all a bit better natured than here though.



I'm guessing the leave result has had very little effect on you am i guessing?

no work related issue or know anyone who had to apply for settle status or work thru the new immigration rules?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 3, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> I'm guessing the leave result has had very little effect on you am i guessing?


You start your post by saying you're guessing so yes, you are guessing


----------



## bimble (Oct 3, 2021)

If it had gone the other way and we had all Remoaned, by a stomping 52% majority, i kind of hope that now, six years later, i'd have taken up a hobby like maybe crocheting or something, instead of trying to get my thrills by taunting the defeated leavers.


----------



## Badgers (Oct 3, 2021)

Tribalism always goes well


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 3, 2021)

bimble said:


> If it had gone the other way and we had all Remoaned, by a stomping 52% majority, i kind of hope that now, six years later, i'd have taken up a hobby like maybe crocheting or something, instead of trying to get my thrills by taunting the defeated leavers.


Maybe you should take up a hobby anyway


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 3, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> You start your post by saying you're guessing so yes, you are guessing



Quiet you ..


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Oct 3, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Cheers mate!


Just the one word mind.


----------



## bimble (Oct 3, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Maybe you should take up a hobby anyway


probably. I get bored very quickly that's the problem.


----------



## bimble (Oct 3, 2021)

TopCat said:


> I got red top.


Thats terrible i'm sorry, that's worse than me the other week, buying a carton of longlife in case of emergency.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 3, 2021)

bimble said:


> probably. I get bored very quickly thats the problem.


Maybe that should be your new hobby then. One day you might read some of malenkov's speeches, the next seek out weather maps from the 1970s and so on.


----------



## MrSki (Oct 3, 2021)

TopCat said:


> I answered you, your response is just to repeat yourself. Again. And again. And again.


Well if that is your sum  total of Brexit benefits then you must be a happy chappy. 
What you are saying is not being part of the EU is a Brucey bonus?


----------



## TopCat (Oct 3, 2021)

MrSki said:


> Well if that is your sum  total of Brexit benefits then you must be a happy chappy.
> What you are saying is not being part of the EU is a Brucey bonus?


I couldn’t be bothered to write a long list.


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 3, 2021)

MrSki said:


> Well if that is your sum  total of Brexit benefits then you must be a happy chappy.
> What you are saying is not being part of the EU is a Brucey bonus?



This is the standard remoaniac response isn't it?

"That's not a benefit. Give me another one!"


----------



## bimble (Oct 3, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Maybe that be your new hobby then. One day you might read some of malenkov's speeches, the next seek out weather maps from the 1970s and so on.


i do that stuff already, this afternoon for instance i learnt about the refuseniks and their failed airoplane hijacking attempt, and also some stuff about moths. That's not a hobby tho thats just the upside of being easily distracted.


----------



## Mezzer (Oct 3, 2021)

TopCat said:


> No leave bubble here in TopCat land. I live in the real world. My daughter swore at me when the result came through, my mother says she despairs, my ex gf voted remain as did all her pals etc etc. It’s all a bit better natured than here though.


They're just being polite.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 3, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> I'm guessing the leave result has had very little effect on you am i guessing?
> 
> no work related issue or know anyone who had to apply for settle status or work thru the new immigration rules?


I know loads of people who applied for settled status. No one reported any problems other than one who had no documentation due to being a drunken bam. Even they got it though.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 3, 2021)

I would think though that there must have been problems with some getting settled status given five million registered.


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 3, 2021)

and did they think having to jump through red tape that did not exsist before the vote as a good thing topcat?

seeming as nothing about the exit has negativily effected you i can see why you still think the leave vote was a good idea

not everyone lives in that bubble mate


----------



## TopCat (Oct 3, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> and did they think having to jump through red tape that did not exsist before the vote as a good thing tomcat?


Obviously not, or could not care much or just thought it a red tape not much hassle. That’s the spread of opinion. 
Lots of my east European pals have got better jobs and pay rises recently too.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 3, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> This is the standard remoaniac response isn't it?
> 
> "That's not a benefit. Give me another one!"


No shame, it’s protected by the huge sense of self entitlement.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 3, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> and did they think having to jump through red tape that did not exsist before the vote as a good thing topcat?
> 
> seeming as nothing about the exit has negativily effected you i can see why you still think the leave vote was a good idea
> 
> not everyone lives in that bubble mate


Go on. List your personal disbenefits then.


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 3, 2021)

as someone who works in the transport/export sector do you want me to bore you

lets just say the planning for what happen after dec 31st was as piss fucking poor as the whole thing has been from the start


----------



## TopCat (Oct 3, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> as someone who work in the transport/export sector do you want me to bore you


So your work is harder. 

But you still get paid. 

Go on.


----------



## bimble (Oct 3, 2021)

i'm kind of enjoying brexit today, the best bit was the Prime Minister going on TV and trying quite hard to pretend to not understand that farmers having to cull the animals they've raised and burn them / chuck them in a ditch because lack of butchers is a different thing to what they normally do which is kill them to sell for food, that was a bit special.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 3, 2021)

bimble said:


> i'm kind of enjoying brexit today, the best bit was the Prime Minister going on TV and trying quite hard to pretend to not understand that farmers having to cull the animals they've raised and burn them / chuck them in a ditch is a different thing to killing them to sell for food, that was a bit special.


Could they not give them away/let them go even? Sounds more like keeping prices level.


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 3, 2021)

TopCat said:


> So your work is harder.
> 
> But you still get paid.
> 
> Go on.




jesus you are a zealot we should say that to the farmers, Fishermen and producers in this country

just work harder your not in the eu anymore rejoice

oh do fuck off


----------



## bimble (Oct 3, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Could they not give them away/let them go even? Sounds more like keeping prices level.


I would love that. Yes they should just hand them out or set them free to roam the land.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 3, 2021)

Chucking them in ditches just seems spiteful.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 3, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> jesus you are a zealot we should say that to the farmers, Fishermen and producers in this country
> 
> just work harder your not in the eu anymore rejoice
> 
> oh do fuck off


So no list of personal disbenefits then. 

I think it’s more an emotional loss for you personally.


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 3, 2021)

most of my job involves sending medicaiton direct to patients around the world.

lot of it involved in clincal trail stage 3 and 4 for horrible shit, before i could do this quite easily in the EU zone

now i have to work a little harder and the patients have to wait longer for the drugs to arrive

some times we get the joy them or the family calling us to check what the delay is

enough of a personal disbenefits for you


----------



## TopCat (Oct 3, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> most of my job involves sending medicaiton direct to patients around the world.
> 
> lot of it involved in clincal trail stage 3 and 4 for horrible shit, before i could do this quite easily in the EU zone
> 
> ...


Is that it?


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 3, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Is that it?



you give me the benifit more than we are out of the EU

because it a fucking daft idea of  a benift when we still have torys running the country and an etonain as the PM

how the fuck is that a change of the status quo  and if you idea is for anyone complaining  to just work harder then you also a dullled fuckwit


----------



## brogdale (Oct 3, 2021)

TopCat said:


> No shame, it’s protected by the huge sense of self entitlement.


And yet, as if by some universal law, balanced out by the self-delusion of those who bought into the idea that there could possibly be any benefits for our class from merely withdrawing from the Union.


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 3, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> because it a fucking daft idea of  a benift when we still have torys running the country and an etonain as the PM



This is just nonsense though, isn't it. Absolute balderdash. Would it be less of a daft idea if Corbyn was running the show?


----------



## bimble (Oct 3, 2021)

The government of deluded lunatics that we have in charge right now is not some bit of bad luck it's there thanks to brexit, it was elected to get brexit done, been culled of people who were not brexity enough, its brexit that gave us them.


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 3, 2021)

why with Corbyn in charge would we have railways be taken over by the government, looming food supply shortages , problems heating homes over winter and a fuel crisis caused because of lack of faith in governing party. they said don't panic so everyone paniced


hate to burst anyones bubble but was never  a member of momentium or even that big a fan of Corbyn

but seriously the people who took us out of europe tackle every problem that arrises atm by blaming pervious governments not tackling the problems
when you been in power for 20 years that should not lead to a points advantage in the polls


but don't worry we taking back control by leaving the EU whilst ruled by our public schoolboy betters


----------



## philosophical (Oct 3, 2021)

It is funny that the leave enthusiasts think that the UK has actually left the EU when there is a 300+ mile land border wide open between the two entities.
Well not that funny actually, the leave enthusiasts are nasty cunts whose thrill is about pissing others off, so they practice self delusion. The problem for the leave voters is that there are a lot of people not so deluded as them.
Leave enthusiasts being constantly reminded they're cunts is never going to go away, and so far the response(s) from them to that reminder is weak and predictable.
Come on leave enthusiasts, how about another round of retro justification that you voted leave in order to get a united Ireland, helps reinforce what delusional wankers you are?


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 3, 2021)

bimble said:


> The government of deluded lunatics that we have in charge right now is not some bit of bad luck it's there thanks to brexit, it was elected to get brexit done, been culled of people who were not brexity enough, its brexit that gave us them.



So if it weren't for Brexit the UK would have a fluffy Labour government. 

Awww, cute!


----------



## bimble (Oct 3, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> So if it weren't for Brexit the UK would have a fluffy Labour government.
> 
> Awww, cute!


No. This is not a normal tory government this is a brexit government, if you don't see that that's just weird, look at them, their brexiteer-ness is the whole point of them and of everything they say.


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 3, 2021)

tbf the tory government will ride the result for the next 10 years to hold power at least

anyone saying anything else is just a remainer


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 3, 2021)

bimble said:


> No. This is not a normal tory government this is a brexit government, if you don't see that that's just weird.


There's no such thing as a normal Tory government


----------



## bimble (Oct 3, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> tbf the tory government will ride the result for the next 10 years to hold power at least
> 
> anyone saying anything else is just a remainer


idk, I think it might not work out for them. Brexit did, as they hoped, 'save the tory party' but i think it may backfire on them quite soon.


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 3, 2021)

bimble said:


> No. This is not a normal tory government this is a brexit government, if you don't see that that's just weird, look at them, their brexiteer-ness is the whole point of them and of everything they say.



Go on then. What's a "normal Tory government"?


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 3, 2021)

a group of people lined up blindfolded against a wall is my idea of a normal tory government

but it subjective


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 3, 2021)

bimble said:


> idk, I think it might not work out for them. Brexit did, as they hoped, 'save the tory party' but i think it may backfire on them quite soon.



Truly cutting edge stuff. What are you basing this on? Can you think of any other reasons the Tories might be in power or is it all Brexit?


----------



## bimble (Oct 3, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Go on then. What's a "normal Tory government"?


This is clearly not a carry on as usual government, it's the Get Brexit Done party, which won by swallowing ukip. Its staffed by a bunch of total weirdo ideologues who got their jobs by being the brexitiest (people who didnt Believe enough were culled back in 2019 wasn't it). As to whether its permanenty changed the tory party from 'conservative' to something else completely idk, i think it probably has.


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 3, 2021)

bimble said:


> This is clearly not a carry on as usual government ...



What is a "carry on as usual government". Define what you're saying. Be explicit.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 3, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> you give me the benifit more than we are out of the EU
> 
> because it a fucking daft idea of  a benift when we still have torys running the country and an etonain as the PM
> 
> how the fuck is that a change of the status quo  and if you idea is for anyone complaining  to just work harder then you also a dullled fuckwit


So do you have any other personal disbenefits you want to mention? Last chance.


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 3, 2021)

sorry topcat seeming as your one remark about the benefit   of the vote was leaving the EU
and have remarked that anyone complaining about it should just work harder


I'm now bored and will resume my plan for my afternoon getting pissed and posting memes


when you can think of a second benefit i might resume this discussion


----------



## TopCat (Oct 3, 2021)

philosophical said:


> It is funny that the leave enthusiasts think that the UK has actually left the EU when there is a 300+ mile land border wide open between the two entities.
> Well not that funny actually, the leave enthusiasts are nasty cunts whose thrill is about pissing others off, so they practice self delusion. The problem for the leave voters is that there are a lot of people not so deluded as them.
> Leave enthusiasts being constantly reminded they're cunts is never going to go away, and so far the response(s) from them to that reminder is weak and predictable.
> Come on leave enthusiasts, how about another round of retro justification that you voted leave in order to get a united Ireland, helps reinforce what delusional wankers you are?


Brexit is sending you quicker to your box.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 3, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> sorry topcat seeming as you one remark as been well the benefit  of the vote was leaving the EU
> and have remarked that anyone complaining about it should just work harder
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah it’s emotional for you. But no disbenefits. 

Memes is more you. Crack on.


----------



## bimble (Oct 3, 2021)

Spymaster  I like you and i enjoy a fight for fun as much as the next twat but refusing to see that this current government, the people in power in it and what they are doing, is all about them being the Brexit Doers is just too annoying. It's like you saying, tell me exactly what you mean by the sky is blue.


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 3, 2021)

hardly emotional sir

i deal with the aftermath of some daft dickheads idea of freedom and blue passports


they just forget the voted tory so the rest of us can work harder to make up for their delusions

back to cat pictures


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 3, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> when you can think of a second benefit i might resume this discussion



There you go, TopCat . Your main reason doesn't count. 

Think of another!


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 3, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> There you go, TopCat . Your main reason doesn't count.
> 
> Think of another!



sorry spy did you not vote to remain

oddly you are now a cheerleader for brexiters


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 3, 2021)

bimble said:


> Spymaster  I like you and i enjoy a fight for fun as much as the next twat but refusing to see that this current government, the people in power in it and what they are doing, is all about them being the Brexit Doers is just too annoying.



No. You're saying we have a Tory government because Brexit. I just asking you to elaborate on that, given that we had a Tory government before Brexit too.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Oct 3, 2021)

bimble said:


> Spymaster  I like you and i enjoy a fight for fun as much as the next twat but refusing to see that this current government, the people in power in it and what they are doing, is all about them being the Brexit Doers is just too annoying. It's like you saying, tell me exactly what you mean by the sky is blue.



No brexit is over and done as of January 2021, any attempt to say what an absolute shit show this is can only be sour grapes from frustrated remoaners who refuse to leave The Bubble.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 3, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> sorry spy did you not vote to remain
> 
> oddly you are now a cheerleader for brexiters


They need all the cheerleaders they can get.


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 3, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> sorry spy did you not vote to remain


I did. But I understand why others didn't.


----------



## bimble (Oct 3, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> No. You're saying we have a Tory government because Brexit. I just asking you to elaborate on that, given that we had a Tory government before Brexit too.


No i didn't say that. I said we have THIS particular government of loon ideologues and fantasists because of it, these people.


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 3, 2021)

bimble said:


> No i didn't say that. I said we have THIS particular government of loon ideologues and fantasists because of it, these people.



Ok. So it's THIS tory government that you blame Brexit for. You'd have been happier with a different Tory government.


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 3, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> a group of people lined up blindfolded against a wall is my idea of a normal tory government
> 
> but it subjective



Just for the record i'm just being silly with this post


why would they have  blindfolds...


----------



## bimble (Oct 3, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Ok. So it's THIS tory government that you blame Brexit for. You'd have been happier with a different Tory government.


yep. I think if we didn't have these particular bunch of brexit fantasists in charge things would have been less bad. I think they (the people elevated to positions of power on the basis of being able to perform Faith in brexit above all) have been the worst possible bunch to have in charge during real life complex challenges like the covid and the transition out of the EU.


----------



## Supine (Oct 3, 2021)

TopCat said:


> So do you have any other personal disbenefits you want to mention? Last chance.



Loss of right to work in europe, loss of research grants, higher gas prices, lack of food, no more easy purchasing from eu shops, loss of community with eu, longer airport queues, more dangerous flights, loss of regulatory leadership in pharmaceutics, loss of pharma mfg in uk, made into laughing stock around the world, more forms to fill in. That’s a few personal disbenefits, i could go on if you want more. No doubt you’ll just dismiss or ignore them.


----------



## philosophical (Oct 3, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Brexit is sending you quicker to your box.


Don’t worry I am nearly 70 and will be dead soon. You can dance on my grave then if you wish and bring along all of your mates on here (like the stalker) to join in. You can bring your mum if she is still alive and your dinner too, none of that stops you being a cunt Brexit supporter, and there are others younger than me, further away from the coffin you wish I was in, that will continue to regard you and other Brexit enthusiasts as cunts. I will carry on until I die anyway.
On your part you will have to live with yourself and what you are.


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 3, 2021)

bimble said:


> yep. I think if we didnt have these particular bunch of brexit fantasists in charge things would have been less bad.



In what way do you think THIS tory government is worse than the tory government we'd have had without Brexit?


----------



## Supine (Oct 3, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> No brexit is over and done as of January 2021, any attempt to say what an absolute shit show this is can only be sour grapes from frustrated remoaners who refuse to leave The Bubble.



It isn’t even half done yet…


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 3, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> sorry topcat seeming as your one remark about the benefit   of the vote was leaving the EU



That is it though. Divorce doesn't bring material benefits, divorce ends an unhappy partnership. Divorce is often costly and painful but seen as a price worth paying by at least one party in it.


----------



## bimble (Oct 3, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> In what way do you think THIS tory government is worse than the tory government we'd have had without Brexit?



The people who have power now are there because of their ability to have Faith and be Patriotically Optimistic and not ever worry about complexities, complexities and details and thinking about mitigation strategies or planning ahead = 'project fear'.
The PM is the most obvious the rest are his chosen sidekicks.
That's fine for getting elected on a platform of 'get brexit done' but not a good trait at all for doing anything that's hard, like a pandemic, or leaving the EU. They have fucked it, not by chance but because they were bound to.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 3, 2021)

bimble said:


> yep. I think if we didn't have these particular bunch of brexit fantasists in charge things would have been less bad. I think they (the people elevated to positions of power on the basis of being able to perform Faith in brexit above all) have been the worst possible bunch to have in charge during real life complex challenges like the covid and the transition out of the EU.



 May was a remainer, a huge part of the mis-management of Brexit goes back to her moronic red lines.


----------



## bimble (Oct 3, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> May was a remainer, a huge part of the mis-management of Brexit goes back to her moronic red lines.


yep. She was a remainer but then she tried to get with the program didnt she.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 3, 2021)

Supine said:


> Loss of right to work in europe, loss of research grants, higher gas prices, lack of food, no more easy purchasing from eu shops, loss of community with eu, longer airport queues, more dangerous flights, loss of regulatory leadership in pharmaceutics, loss of pharma mfg in uk, made into laughing stock around the world, more forms to fill in. That’s a few personal disbenefits, i could go on if you want more. No doubt you’ll just dismiss or ignore them.



So these personal benefits you have lost care to elaborate? 

What work in Europe had you lined up that you can't now take up?
What research grant have you lost?
What EU shop have you not been easily being able to purchase from?
What the actual fuck does "Loss of community with the EU" even mean???


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 3, 2021)

bimble said:


> yep. She was a remainer but then she tried to get with the program didnt she.




I have no idea what she was doing tbh, don't think she did either. But what she was was a Tory that wasn't part of the Brexit crowd, yet she fucked things as bad as it was possible to fuck them, So fuck her, obviously, but it does kind of take away from your idea that it is the current cabal of cunts that are the sole issue here. The issue as ever is Tories.


----------



## bimble (Oct 3, 2021)

One example of their idiocy that i am currently enjoying thinking about is this:
The sudden invitation for 10,000 workers to come over here drive trucks kill turkeys & save xmas came just in time for the ban on entry to UK  for anyone who only has an identity card and no passport. 
I read a thing saying  80% + of eastern european truckers don't have passports. 
Classic top quality get Brexit Done governing.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 3, 2021)

Supine said:


> Loss of right to work in europe, loss of research grants, higher gas prices, lack of food, no more easy purchasing from eu shops, loss of community with euonger airport queues, l, more dangerous flights, loss of regulatory leadership in pharmaceutics, loss of pharma mfg in uk, made into laughing stock around the world, more forms to fill in. That’s a few personal disbenefits, i could go on if you want more. No doubt you’ll just dismiss or ignore them.




And we go on...
Personally you have been harmed by "loss of regulatory leadership in pharmaceutics, loss of pharma mfg in uk, made into laughing stock around the world" how exactly?

Longer airport queues are 100% Covid.

More dangerous flights. OK, go on and explain why flights are more dangerous cos the UK left the EU, am sure it will be a hoot.


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 3, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> So these personal benefits you have lost care to elaborate?
> 
> What work in Europe had you lined up that you can't now take up?
> What research grant have you lost?
> ...



hey the remainer where not all desperatly wanting to suck on trump nipple

Boris bemoaning the lack of the special relationship status with the US should be a bit of a give away

the glorious opening of the world to the united kindom is not happening

to undermine people working in fields which are impacted by brexit and just going well prove it to me

why would any of us on a public forum give you that much detail

i'm sorry farmers, truckers, food producers and ports are already reporting problems with the supply chain

and you don't believe its effecting every other industry

messy divorce and the eu got to keep the children


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 3, 2021)

I’m back in Stockport Tuesday and I’d set my heart on a pint of Robinsons and either a quinoa or advocado salad . I’m devastated tbh , will have to settle for a bag of pork scratching sand a pickled egg.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 3, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> hey the remainer where not all desperatly wanting to suck on trump nipple
> 
> Boris bemoaning the lack of the special relationship status with the US should be a bit of a give away
> 
> ...




Posting unintelligible gibberish isn't gonna help, you silly rabbit.


----------



## Supine (Oct 3, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> So these personal benefits you have lost care to elaborate?
> 
> What work in Europe had you lined up that you can't now take up?
> What research grant have you lost?
> ...



Why should I elaborate on them. They are losses. Got as many benefits you can list?


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 3, 2021)

never stopped the leave campaign

sure farrage was part of it


----------



## brogdale (Oct 3, 2021)

51.89% benefits that aren't benefits and 48.11% disbenefits that aren't disbenefits; Brexit.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 3, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> I’m back in Stockport Tuesday and I’d set my heart on a pint of Robinsons and either a quinoa or advocado salad . I’m devastated tbh , will have to settle for a bag of pork scratching sand a pickled egg.





Cunt should have tried the Spoons in Godalming, no item off the menu when we dined there last night. Except Heineken.


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 3, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Posting unintelligible gibberish isn't gonna help, you silly rabbit.



basic point if you expect people to identify what industry they work in and examples of  problems that have arisen due to brexit,
that could lead to personal consequences, you daft gobshite


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 3, 2021)

Supine said:


> Why should I elaborate on them. They are losses. Got as many benefits you can list?




No reason at all you should elaborate. Shall just have to guess which work in Europe you can no longer do which research grant you can no longer claim, which shops within the EU no longer want your custom. Tbf though it sounds like you are talking out of your arse here.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 3, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> basic point if you expect people to identify what industry they work in and examples of  problems that have arisen due to brexit,
> that could lead to personal consequences, you daft gobshite



Wigglier than the worm at the bottom of my garden.


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 3, 2021)

i don't need to go into what i do for a living to tell you multiple suppliers in the EU, just stop sending goods to the UK because of the custom rule related to brexit

that works both for good entering and leaving

and oddly it just going to get worse i don't need to wriggle


the writings already on the wall


----------



## gosub (Oct 3, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> No brexit is over and done as of January 2021, any attempt to say what an absolute shit show this is can only be sour grapes from frustrated remoaners who refuse to leave The Bubble.


Its not though apparently, as somebody else pointed out to me upthread.  Another tranche of change inbound

It is a shitshow but then so would remaining have been


----------



## Maggot (Oct 3, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> So these personal benefits you have lost care to elaborate?
> 
> What work in Europe had you lined up that you can't now take up?
> What research grant have you lost?
> ...


Listing disbenefits is too easy, they only count if they're personal.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 3, 2021)

gosub said:


> It is a shitshow but then so would remaining have been



Totally, a lot of remainers talk about Brexit as if a 'no' vote would have made it as if the whole thing had never happened, whereas in reality it would have massively consolidated the power of Cameron/Osborne and their austerity agenda.


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 3, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Wigglier than the worm at the bottom of my garden.




I do hope you have better reason for leaving than FREEDOM whilst the etonian party is still in charge of the country


----------



## Supine (Oct 3, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> No reason at all you should elaborate. Shall just have to guess which work in Europe you can no longer do which research grant you can no longer claim, which shops within the EU no longer want your custom. Tbf though it sounds like you are talking out of your arse here.



Pre brexit i worked contracts in spain, france and germany. Post brexit they are only open to eu passport holders. Brexiteer denial is off the scale, you poor bunnies.


----------



## bimble (Oct 3, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> No reason at all you should elaborate. Shall just have to guess which work in Europe you can no longer do which research grant you can no longer claim, which shops within the EU no longer want your custom. Tbf though it sounds like you are talking out of your arse here.


Does it have to be all about our own selves and our personal stuff or am i also allowed to be pissed off about what's happening to other people idk.


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 3, 2021)

8ball said:


> Totally, a lot of remainers talk about Brexit as if a 'no' vote would have made it as if the whole thing had never happened, whereas in reality it would have massively consolidated the power of Cameron/Osborne and their austerity agenda.



did we leave austerity under May and Boris?



don't we have another 20 years of it due to covid


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 3, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> I do hope you have better reason for leaving than FREEDOM whilst the etonian party is still in charge of the country




Yep:

FUCK.SHIT.UP.

Seems to be working.


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 3, 2021)

if you in the Tory Party with a 5 point lead

that appears to be working

whilst you have daft fuckwits defending brexit


----------



## bimble (Oct 3, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Yep:
> 
> FUCK.SHIT.UP.
> 
> Seems to be working.


Brexit, its so punk. That tory MP who hopes the supermarkets collapse so we can all go to the farm for our fresh milk he's a free thinker like you.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 3, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> if you in the Tory Party with a 5 point lead
> 
> that appears to be working
> 
> whilst you have daft fuckwits defending brexit




Yeah, it's Boris the master tactician that keeps the Tories out front and fuck all to to with there being absolutely no opposition at all. None.


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 3, 2021)

oh are you going to mention corbyn shortly?


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 3, 2021)

I


bimble said:


> The people who have power now are there because of their ability to have Faith and be Patriotically Optimistic and not ever worry about complexities, complexities and details and thinking about mitigation strategies or planning ahead = 'project fear'.
> The PM is the most obvious the rest are his chosen sidekicks.
> That's fine for getting elected on a platform of 'get brexit done' but not a good trait at all for doing anything that's hard, like a pandemic, or leaving the EU. They have fucked it, not by chance but because they were bound to.



I like you too, so I'm going to pretend this makes sense for now and go make a start on S4 of Goliath


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 3, 2021)

lets follow this man


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 3, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> I
> 
> 
> I like you too, so I'm going to pretend this makes sense for now and go make a start on S4 of Goliath


Patience of a saint


----------



## bimble (Oct 3, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> I like you too, so I'm going to pretend this makes sense for now and go make a start on S4 of Goliath


You know that what i said is just true, which understandably makes you feel a bit silly so you're going to curl up and watch tv instead, which fair enough.


----------



## bimble (Oct 3, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Patience of a saint











						Pork scratchings firm recalls products linked to 176 salmonella cases
					

Warning to avoid some products from Tayto Group’s Mr Porky, Jay’s and the Real Pork Crackling Company brands




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 3, 2021)

Supine said:


> Why should I elaborate on them. They are losses. Got as many benefits you can list?




Tell us more about the lack of eu community and the dangerous flights. 

I ask as I sell flights for a living and since the start of the year have picked up a number of EU based companies that wish to buy them.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Oct 3, 2021)

Top 5 Brexit benefits (to date):

1. Freedom from the rotting neo-liberal EU economic project, the common features of which  are secretiveness, democratic unaccountability, punishment beatings for poor countries and racist border controls across ‘Fortress Europe’. 
2. Shifting the balance of labour market forces towards workers and unions and fatally undermining the use of exploitative free movement of labour.
3. What Perry Anderson calls EU ‘dilute sovereignty without meaningful democracy’, compulsory unanimity without participant equality and the cult of free markets’ also gone. 
4. The death of EU State Aid restrictions opening up new state procurement and public ownership options. 
5. Exposure of the corrosive political nostalgia and bankruptcy of middle class liberals. As capitalism falters we find out how many supporters it actually has in polite society and among the chattering class.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 3, 2021)

bimble said:


> Brexit, its so punk. That tory MP who hopes the supermarkets collapse so we can all go to the farm for our fresh milk he's a free thinker like you.




Punk?


----------



## Supine (Oct 3, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> I ask as I sell flights for a living and since the start of the year have picked up a number of EU based companies that wish to buy them.



Yep, I remember your showing off about making lots of money due to brexit. Well done you. Presumably travel barriers mean people need to pay someone to help them navigate the new found complications.


----------



## Elpenor (Oct 3, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> I’m back in Stockport Tuesday and I’d set my heart on a pint of Robinsons and either a quinoa or advocado salad . I’m devastated tbh , will have to settle for a bag of pork scratching sand a pickled egg.



The best thing about the EU membership was clearly the excessive food miles required to keep the remainers fed with quinoa and avocado


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 3, 2021)

"As capitalism falters"

i'm the silly rabbit and your putting that idea behind the conservative party

Workers first indeed


----------



## bimble (Oct 3, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Punk?


fuck shit up. Vote boris.


----------



## bimble (Oct 3, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Top 5 Brexit benefits (to date):
> 
> 1. Freedom from the rotting neo-liberal EU economic project, the common features of which  are secretiveness, democratic unaccountability, punishment beatings for poor countries and racist border controls across ‘Fortress Europe’.
> 2. Shifting the balance of labour market forces towards workers and unions and fatally undermining the use of exploitative free movement of labour.
> ...


This just looks like crazy fantasy stuff to me. What on earth makes you think the cult of the free market is gone and capitalism is faltering, because of brexit?


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Oct 3, 2021)

bimble said:


> This just looks like crazy fantasy stuff to me. What on earth makes you think the cult of the free market is gone and capitalism is faltering, because of brexit?



Anderson was explicitly thinking about the entire premise of the EU economic model which is indeed embedded in the cult of the free market. As for capitalism faltering if you disagree feel free to set out why


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 3, 2021)

which anderson ?


----------



## bimble (Oct 3, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Anderson was explicitly thinking about the entire premise of the EU economic model which is indeed embedded in the cult of the free market. As for capitalism faltering if you disagree feel free to set out why


Oh right, so cos we left the EU we are now free from the cult of the free market? ok.
You said  capitalism is faltering as a result of brexit, why is it up to me to say why i dont agree?  .
 I will try tho: I see zero evidence of that happening at all. Do you?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 3, 2021)

Supine said:


> Yep, I remember your showing off about making lots of money due to brexit. Well done you. Presumably travel barriers mean people need to pay someone to help them navigate the new found complications.




Nope.

Just a number of EU based companies wanting to work with me since we left having seen that the sky has not actually fallen in.

So, care to tell us about the grants you have lost?


----------



## Supine (Oct 3, 2021)

bimble said:


> Oh right, so cos we left the EU we are now free from the cult of the free market? ok.
> You said  capitalism is faltering as a result of brexit, why is it up to me to say why i dont agree?  . i will try: I see zero evidence of that happening at all ?



I liked #1 about escaping fortress Europe and the racist border policies. Post brexit we have Priti Patel in charge!


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 3, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Nope.
> 
> Just a number of EU based companies wanting to work with me since we left having seen that the sky has not actually fallen in.
> 
> So, care to tell us about the grants you have lost?



so i'm alright but


you remoaners in your bubbles




do you vote for the tory party?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 3, 2021)

bimble said:


> fuck shit up. Vote boris.




Punk was always a Tory thing? not my bag but you are free to claim it. Fuckshitup was, as far as I know, never a Tory policy. Or that of any political prick, tbf.


----------



## bimble (Oct 3, 2021)

Supine said:


> I liked #1 about escaping fortress Europe and the racist border policies. Post brexit we have Priti Patel in charge!


But she hates all foreigners equally, EU or not. that is anti racism.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 3, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> so i'm alright but
> 
> 
> you remoaners in your bubbles
> ...




Wtf am I moaning about?

I think it is going brilliantly.

Whinging sad sacks are whinging. 

What more do I want?


----------



## Supine (Oct 3, 2021)

bimble said:


> But she hates all foreigners equally, EU or not. that is anti racism.



No, that is equal opportunities racism


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 3, 2021)

Come on Supine tell us about these dangerous flights. It is clearly relevant to my interests, you stated it as a fact. What did you mean by what you said?


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 3, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Wtf am I moaning about?
> 
> I think it is going brilliantly.
> 
> ...



can you read..

your last post was  basically

i'm doing alright so fuck you

so i asked if you are someone who voted for Boris


----------



## bimble (Oct 3, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Fuckshitup was, as far as I know, never a Tory policy. Or that of any political prick, tbf.


nah, cummings for instance, leader of leave, he's a political prick & fuckshitup is his main idea. Fuckshitup won, like boaty mcboatface did.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 3, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> can you read..
> 
> your last post was  basically
> 
> ...




Your post was; things are shit bit I can’t say why.

I was under the impression that you didn’t live in the U.K. anyway, was I wrong about that?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 3, 2021)

bimble said:


> nah, cummings for instance, leader of leave, he's a political prick & fuckshitup is his main idea. Fuckshitup won, like boaty mcboatface did.




Cummings was many thing, anarchist was not one
of them though.


----------



## bimble (Oct 3, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Come on Supine tell us about these dangerous flights. It is clearly relevant to my interests, you stated it as a fact. What did you mean by what you said?


i think they mean this, getting rid of silly EU red tape on things like airworthiness. 
It's in the government's official list of brexit benefits, below. Crown on pintglass is number one tho.

'General Aviation Reform - Having already made some changes to EU rules,* the government will remove further unnecessary and burdensome EU requirements on the General Aviation sector (non-scheduled aircraft) - including on crew licencing, airworthiness maintenance, and medical requirements.'*



			https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1018386/Brexit_opportunities-_regulatory_reforms.pdf
		


thats good news and definitely a sign of capitalism faltering as well.


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 3, 2021)

your impression is incorrect,


 39th step being the only  ex pat on the thread as far as i know


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 3, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> your impression is incorrect,
> 
> 
> 39th step being the only  ex pat on the thread as far as i know




I didn’t think and never said, but did think you were Irish. Apologies if I was wrong there.


----------



## Supine (Oct 3, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Come on Supine tell us about these dangerous flights. It is clearly relevant to my interests, you stated it as a fact. What did you mean by what you said?



I answered about working in Europe (and inability to do so now) and it was ignored so why should i bother


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 3, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> I didn’t think and never said, but did think you were Irish. Apologies if I was wrong there.



you can be irish and still live in london


we had a war about it and everything, then the freestate and then a cival war about that

then a republic 


we had the freedom of movement stuff before the eu made it main stream as do english people

just don't want to premote it


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 3, 2021)

Supine said:


> I answered about working in Europe (and inability to do so now) and it was ignored so why should i bother




Sorry, I missed it, if you would be so kind, as this really does affect nearly everyone who reads these boards and every single one of my customers; What is now so dangerous about flying?


----------



## bimble (Oct 3, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Sorry, I missed it, if you would be so kind, as this really does affect nearly everyone who reads these boards and every single one of my customers; What is now so dangerous about flying?


you really should read up about it.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 3, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> you can be irish and still live in london
> 
> 
> we had a war about it and everything, then the freestate and then a cival war about that
> ...




So you are an EU citizen who also benefits for the Common Travel Area which means that personally nothing at all has changed for you, but you thought you’d wade in anyway and have a bit of a fight.

Fair fucks.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 3, 2021)

bimble said:


> you really should read up about it.




Shit! Frau Bahn hates flying and she hasn’t heard of this new threat, what is it that means that the U.K. no longer being in the EU means that our flight flight Osaka to Okinawa will now intrinsically be more dangerous than before?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 3, 2021)

STOP FLYING

THE U.K. HAS LEFT TEFT THE EU


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 3, 2021)

the comman travel area i mentioned is between the uk and eira


saying that i'm an eu passort holder with irish citizenship, who like many people in the country

seeming as england stopped being a producer of good in around the 1970's

work in one aspect of the supply chain but don't worry we will all work harder because of your mistakes

it fine i'm sure the Conservatives will look after our worker rights

as long as we don't have socalism and corbyn


----------



## bimble (Oct 3, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> STOP FLYING
> 
> THE U.K. HAS LEFT TEFT THE EU


mate. the governmnet has trumpeted as a benefit of leaving that we can get rid of EU red tape about things like flightworthiness and medical checks on flight crews. You may think thats good news, you're the travel agent, you should know, it will make flights cheaper wont it.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 3, 2021)

bimble said:


> mate. the governmnet has trumpeted as a benefit of leaving that we can get rid of EU red tape about things like flightworthiness and medical checks on flight crews. You may think thats good news, you're the travel agent, you should know.




Christ on a bike, why the fuck are you hanging on the governments’s word?


----------



## Artaxerxes (Oct 3, 2021)

bimble said:


> This just looks like crazy fantasy stuff to me. What on earth makes you think the cult of the free market is gone and capitalism is faltering, because of brexit?



Capitalism is fucked mate, face it.









						Truss signs off £183m cuts to women and equalities aid in first week in new job
					

New Foreign Secretary Liz Truss has been urged urged to reverse the "huge and cruel" 60% cut or resign from her joint role as minister for Women and Equalities



					www.mirror.co.uk


----------



## bimble (Oct 3, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Christ on a bike, why the fuck are you hanging on the governments’s word?


eh? what do you mean. You think they won't do what they promised in their brexit opportunities list?


you're just being weird. First it was what are you talking about and now its christ on a bike dont be daft they wont actually do that ?


----------



## 8ball (Oct 3, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Yeah, it's Boris the master tactician that keeps the Tories out front and fuck all to to with there being absolutely no opposition at all. None.



Agree, but with our media I think it can be hard to accurately gauge what opposition there is.  I can remember cases of Corbyn wiping the floor with Cameron to the sound of media tumbleweed.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 3, 2021)

bimble said:


> eh? what do you mean. You think they wont do what they promised?
> View attachment 291160




Jesus wept. 

Look up what that actually means. The clue is is ain’t what you think it does, at all.


----------



## ska invita (Oct 3, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Tory primitivists.
> 
> View attachment 291127



An interesting new chapter of disaster capitalism being written here.


----------



## bimble (Oct 3, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Jesus wept.
> 
> Look up what that actually means. The clue is is ain’t what you think it does, at all.


Why are you so cross?  i am not an aviation expert, i am just some random reading the government saying that a benefit of brexit is there's now less need for burdensome airworthiness maintenance. What does it mean then? is it the opposite of what it looks like? why are they doing it?


----------



## 2hats (Oct 3, 2021)

Keep your eyes peeled for private jets and Cessnas falling out of the sky.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 3, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> So if it weren't for Brexit the UK would have a fluffy Labour government.
> 
> Awww, cute!


It’s a sweet bimble Brexit fact. Turkeys from Brazil, Stazi Tories stopping anyone leaving
the UK. It’s comforting somehow.


----------



## bimble (Oct 3, 2021)

2hats said:


> Keep your eyes peeled for private jets and Cessnas falling out of the sky.


But they'll be cheaper to run right?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 3, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Jesus wept.
> 
> Look up what that actually means. The clue is is ain’t what you think it does, at all.


And not for the first time


----------



## bimble (Oct 3, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Jesus wept.
> 
> Look up what that actually means. The clue is is ain’t what you think it does, at all.


Are you just saying, its ok as long as you stick to charter flights?


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 3, 2021)

TopCat said:


> It’s a sweet bimble Brexit fact. Turkeys from Brazil, Stazi Tories stopping anyone leaving
> the UK. It’s comforting somehow.









Fredddum


----------



## bimble (Oct 3, 2021)

TopCat said:


> It’s a sweet bimble Brexit fact. Turkeys from Brazil, Stazi Tories stopping anyone leaving
> the UK. It’s comforting somehow.


no fuck off. The turkeys will be from brazil and don't ever call me sweet.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 3, 2021)

bimble said:


> yep. I think if we didn't have these particular bunch of brexit fantasists in charge things would have been less bad. I think they (the people elevated to positions of power on the basis of being able to perform Faith in brexit above all) have been the worst possible bunch to have in charge during real life complex challenges like the covid and the transition out of the EU.


This bit I agree with but not how we got here. 
“  I think they (the people elevated to positions of power on the basis of being able to perform Faith in brexit above all) have been the worst possible bunch to have in charge during real life complex challenges like the covid and the transition out of the EU.”


----------



## TopCat (Oct 3, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> So these personal benefits you have lost care to elaborate?
> 
> What work in Europe had you lined up that you can't now take up?
> What research grant have you lost?
> ...


It’s the sound of a fluttering arse, spouting shite copied from elsewhere.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 3, 2021)

bimble said:


> no fuck off. The turkeys will be from brazil and don't ever call me sweet.


It’s a euphemism for stupid.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 3, 2021)

Supine said:


> Why should I elaborate on them. They are losses. Got as many benefits you can list?


Lame.


----------



## bimble (Oct 3, 2021)

TopCat said:


> It’s a euphemism for stupid.


i'll stop being sweet to you then, it has been hard work tbh given that you're one of the single stupidest posters on this whole thread, going on about the shortages being remoaner photoshops just last week weren't you.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 3, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> i don't need to go into what i do for a living to tell you multiple suppliers in the EU, just stop sending goods to the UK because of the custom rule related to brexit
> 
> that works both for good entering and leaving
> 
> ...


Have you had a special order t shirt from Germany delayed? Was that it?


----------



## TopCat (Oct 3, 2021)

8ball said:


> Totally, a lot of remainers talk about Brexit as if a 'no' vote would have made it as if the whole thing had never happened, whereas in reality it would have massively consolidated the power of Cameron/Osborne and their austerity agenda.


Plus given huge impetus to the European Union project. We would never have been consulted again.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 3, 2021)

bimble said:


> i'll stop being sweet to you then, it has been hard work tbh given that you're one of the single stupidest posters on this whole thread, going on about the shortages being remoaner photoshops just last week weren't you.


Berlin Walls around the Brexit coastline.


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 3, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Have you had a special order t shirt from Germany delayed? Was that it?



last movement i was involved with in germany require mulitple reicing and about a 3 delay in customs

I don't order shit from germany,  i make it happen ya daft cockwomble


----------



## bimble (Oct 3, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Berlin Walls around the Brexit coastline.


It will all be FINE, i'm sure. Just nice to know i have options, as a Slovak,  thats all.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 3, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Plus given huge impetus to the European Union project. We would never have been consulted again.



I don’t think that’s true.  We had huge poeer in the Union (one thing Brexiters pasted over was that we had a large hand in the rules that caused the most chagrin), and would have continued to do so.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 3, 2021)

bimble said:


> i'll stop being sweet to you then, it has been hard work tbh given that you're one of the single stupidest posters on this whole thread, going on about the shortages being remoaner photoshops just last week weren't you.


Today I went to the dalston Sainsbury's. Astonishingly they had everything on my list, from halloumi to red lentils (I got the last pack in the shop) to coriander. They were light on penne and farfalle, but they had spaghetti and fusilli so no worries. These transient shortages seem much the same where I am from how they were in 2018 and 2019.


----------



## bimble (Oct 3, 2021)

there are no shortages and all is well, in the green and pleasant land. sleep well, compatriots.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 3, 2021)

bimble said:


> there are no shortages and all is well, in the green and pleasant land. sleep well, compatriots.


dobrú noc


----------



## TopCat (Oct 3, 2021)

Bed is probably best for me too now.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 3, 2021)

bimble said:


> there are no shortages and all is well, in the green and pleasant land. sleep well, compatriots.



Aside from the petrol thing, I haven’t noticed any shortages.


----------



## krtek a houby (Oct 3, 2021)

philosophical said:


> It is funny that the leave enthusiasts think that the UK has actually left the EU when there is a 300+ mile land border wide open between the two entities.
> Well not that funny actually, the leave enthusiasts are nasty cunts whose thrill is about pissing others off, so they practice self delusion. The problem for the leave voters is that there are a lot of people not so deluded as them.
> Leave enthusiasts being constantly reminded they're cunts is never going to go away, and so far the response(s) from them to that reminder is weak and predictable.
> Come on leave enthusiasts, how about another round of retro justification that you voted leave in order to get a united Ireland, helps reinforce what delusional wankers you are?



A united Ireland is a certainty, not a delusion. For that we praise the leave vote.

Saying this as former member of the remain cult.


----------



## philosophical (Oct 3, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> A united Ireland is a certainty, not a delusion. For that we praise the leave vote.
> 
> Saying this as former member of the remain cult.


A United ireland is very probably desirable, although personally I dislike Nationalism as being the motivator.
It may even be an eventual unintended outcome of the vote to leave, dare I say it because of practicality more than ideology. However there is division in a significant part of the country which isn't simply going to melt away because of the consequence of the vote. A large part of my younger life was witnessing the troubles which were then improved by the GFA, which was something that tried to reconcile that division in a peaceful way.
For that reconciliation to be overtaken by the reality of the brexit vote implications it is not going to go down well, even if the aggrieved community largely voted leave.
Extreme Unionists would lobby for some kind of impractical hard border in Ireland before accepting a United Ireland.
Either way I don't believe leave voters could be bothered to consider the impact of their vote in Ireland, certainly those leading and influencing the leave campaign didn't mention it, it was all 350 million and Turkey.
So you may end up praising some kind of accident, but in the meantime there are the practical realities of two different systems on either side of something some consider to be a border to face.
At the moment we have the 'turn a blind eye' option heaving into view, but that is unsustainable in the long run.
Whatever else those who voted leave do not have a credible solution, until they do they might consider shutting the fuck up.


----------



## krtek a houby (Oct 4, 2021)

philosophical said:


> A United ireland is very probably desirable, although personally I dislike Nationalism as being the motivator.
> It may even be an eventual unintended outcome of the vote to leave, dare I say it because of practicality more than ideology. However there is division in a significant part of the country which isn't simply going to melt away because of the consequence of the vote. A large part of my younger life was witnessing the troubles which were then improved by the GFA, which was something that tried to reconcile that division in a peaceful way.
> For that reconciliation to be overtaken by the reality of the brexit vote implications it is not going to go down well, even if the aggrieved community largely voted leave.
> Extreme Unionists would lobby for some kind of impractical hard border in Ireland before accepting a United Ireland.
> ...



It's not nationalism. Not in the right wing sense.

It's freedom.

And that push for freedom might well take any strange bedfellows (Brexiteers, Bidenistas, Europhiles) in order to peacefully achieve glorious unity.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 4, 2021)

bimble said:


> Are you just saying, its ok as long as you stick to charter flights?




Scheduled flights and charter flights are wholly unaffected, this applies to private aviation, so you can see it’s a major concern


----------



## bimble (Oct 4, 2021)

The deregulation of private jets = the will of the people.


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 4, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Patience of a saint


Yes. But there comes a point …


----------



## gosub (Oct 4, 2021)

bimble said:


> Why are you so cross?  i am not an aviation expert, i am just some random reading the government saying that a benefit of brexit is there's now less need for burdensome airworthiness maintenance. What does it mean then? is it the opposite of what it looks like? why are they doing it?


General aviation is hobby flying little Cessnas and the like.

Public transport flying ...will have to wait and see. A couple of things this year reinforce some nagging doubts.


----------



## bimble (Oct 4, 2021)

i think its great news that people will be able to fly their private toy planes around without having to waste too much time on unnecessary safety concerns, it's long been one of the pressing concerns of the nation.


----------



## MrSki (Oct 4, 2021)




----------



## gosub (Oct 4, 2021)

bimble said:


> i think its great news that people will be able to fly their private planes around without having to waste too much time on unnecessary safety concerns, it's long been one of the pressing concerns of the nation.


You have no idea, 


The imposition of EASA airline standards on General was wholly unwelcome, impacting significantly  on meeting demand for CPL holders and lead to blind eyeing illegal practices which did lead to deaths


----------



## bimble (Oct 4, 2021)

i'm going on a trip abroad later this week, kind of expect pitying looks from people or else to be laughed at, we are quite famous at the moment for our fuckups.


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 4, 2021)

bimble said:


> i think its great news that people will be able to fly their private toy planes around without having to waste too much time on unnecessary safety concerns, it's long been one of the pressing concerns of the nation.


I think you should read-up a bit on it before you post any more.


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 4, 2021)

MrSki said:


>


Author:  
By Ian Dunt
Ian Dunt is a columnist with the i newspaper and the author of "How to be a Liberal: The Story of Freedom and the Fight for its Survival."

'A journalist who has come to prominence on Twitter as a staunch critic of Brexit,'

He is the editor of Politics.co.uk and a host on the Remainiacs podcast. , a columnist for the New European .


----------



## bimble (Oct 4, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> I think you should read-up a bit on it before you post any more.


i don't give a shiny shit about the private plane world tbh, if this brexit benefit means it becomes easier for them i don't see any reason at all why i should be happy about that. 
The whole list of Brexit Opportunities that the gov published, taken as a whole, does scare me a bit tho. Do you have any favourites that youre most excited about?


			https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1018386/Brexit_opportunities-_regulatory_reforms.pdf


----------



## brogdale (Oct 4, 2021)

gosub said:


> You have no idea,
> 
> 
> The imposition of EASA airline standards on General was wholly unwelcome, impacting significantly  on meeting demand for CPL holders and lead to blind eyeing illegal practices which did lead to deaths


Unfortunately, not quite enough deaths.


----------



## Badgers (Oct 4, 2021)

bimble said:


> i think its great news that people will be able to fly their private toy planes around without having to waste too much time on unnecessary safety concerns, it's long been one of the pressing concerns of the nation.


Was that quoted from your 'Milan Source'?


----------



## Badgers (Oct 4, 2021)

bimble said:


> i think its great news that people will be able to fly their private toy planes around without having to waste too much time on unnecessary safety concerns, it's long been one of the pressing concerns of the nation.


To add to this I don't care if the polluting private jet's dropped out the sky. But people, animals and birds are down here.


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 4, 2021)

bimble said:


> i'm going on a trip abroad later this week, kind of expect pitying looks from people or else to be laughed at, we are quite famous at the moment for our fuckups.


You'll be fine, most people don't read your posts on Urban and if they do they don't know your real identity or what you look like. If you are that worried just keep conversation to a minimum or focus on safe subjects like the weather.


----------



## bimble (Oct 4, 2021)

is capitalism crumbling yet.


----------



## MrSki (Oct 4, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Author:
> By Ian Dunt
> Ian Dunt is a columnist with the i newspaper and the author of "How to be a Liberal: The Story of Freedom and the Fight for its Survival."
> 
> ...


And? Is he bullshitting or telling it as it is?


----------



## bimble (Oct 4, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Unfortunately, not quite enough deaths.
> 
> View attachment 291178


i just read that the issue was that the banner they were flying, that said vote for your country vote ukip, got tangled up in the motor .


----------



## brogdale (Oct 4, 2021)

bimble said:


> i just read that the issue was that the banner they were flying, that said vote for your country vote ukip, got tangled up in the motor .


emblematic of so much


----------



## _Russ_ (Oct 4, 2021)

bimble said:


> i think its great news that people will be able to fly their private toy planes around without having to waste too much time on unnecessary safety concerns, it's long been one of the pressing concerns of the nation.


Its not happening, in fact the Gov/CAA has been exclaiming how it is going to make the UK the best place in the world for GA since Shapps was running the GA department, in 2014 they had a program running called the Red Tape challenge running inviting idea from stakeholders, it was all bollox and things actually got worse 

Shapps is a pilot, he keeps his aeroplane on the USA register because it allows for  a less onerous and less expensive maintenance regime, that's right the ex head of CAA GA department and current head Honcho of Transport makes use of a loophole to get around the onerous legislation his department applies to GA in this country


----------



## Yossarian (Oct 4, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Unfortunately, not quite enough deaths.
> 
> View attachment 291178




Nigel Farage dying in a plane crash connected to some Brexit-related quirk in private aircraft maintenance regulations would be the single most Brexity thing that has ever happened, though I'm not sure if his Brexit grifts are pulling in private plane kind of money these days.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 4, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> It's not nationalism. Not in the right wing sense.
> 
> It's freedom.
> 
> And that push for freedom might well take any strange bedfellows (Brexiteers, Bidenistas, Europhiles) in order to peacefully achieve glorious unity.


surprised to hear about the new and improved troubles after 1998


----------



## krtek a houby (Oct 4, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> surprised to hear about the new and improved troubles after 1998



There may be troubles ahead


----------



## Raheem (Oct 4, 2021)

But while there's petrol and bog roll and turkeys from France...


----------



## philosophical (Oct 4, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> It's not nationalism. Not in the right wing sense.
> 
> It's freedom.
> 
> And that push for freedom might well take any strange bedfellows (Brexiteers, Bidenistas, Europhiles) in order to peacefully achieve glorious unity.



Is there nationalism that _isn’t _right wing?
I am trying to imagine a form of nationalism that is inclusive in a global left wing sense.
If there are examples I would be intrigued, I can certainly imagine groups uniting against oppression, but not ones based on an accident of birth, unless by some kind of geographical chance.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 4, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> There may be troubles ahead


but while there's moonlight and rioting and love and romance


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 4, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> It's not nationalism. Not in the right wing sense.
> 
> It's freedom.
> 
> And that push for freedom might well take any strange bedfellows (Brexiteers, Bidenistas, Europhiles) in order to peacefully achieve glorious unity.


didn't james connolly say the cause of ireland is the cause of labour and the cause of labour is the cause of ireland?

or was it the other way round?


----------



## krtek a houby (Oct 4, 2021)

philosophical said:


> Is there nationalism that _isn’t _right wing?
> I am trying to imagine a form of nationalism that is inclusive in a global left wing sense.
> If there are examples I would be intrigued, I can certainly imagine groups uniting against oppression, but not ones based on an accident of birth, unless by some kind of geographical chance.



Irish nationalism is a very different beast to others. It's about self determination of the island and leaving the shackles of the oppressors behind. Socialism and equality for all, plays an essential part.

It's true that right wing elements have crept in, but they tend to get short shrift.


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 4, 2021)

Raheem said:


> But while there's petrol and bog roll and turkeys from France...



... Good post on Urban? No chance.


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 4, 2021)

philosophical said:


> Is there nationalism that _isn’t _right wing? I am trying to imagine a form of nationalism that is inclusive in a global left wing sense.
> If there are examples I would be intrigued, I can certainly imagine groups uniting against oppression, but not ones based on an accident of birth, unless by some kind of geographical chance.


PCP , the Portuguese Communist Party bills itself as a patriotic and left alternative whilst it has an internationalist perspective .


----------



## Serge Forward (Oct 4, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> Irish nationalism is a very different beast to others. It's about self determination of the island and leaving the shackles of the oppressors behind. Socialism and equality for all, plays an essential part.
> 
> It's true that right wing elements have crept in, but they tend to get short shrift.


“I am profoundly convinced that every nationalism offers humanity only the greatest unhappiness …. It is true that the nationalism of oppressed peoples – as a natural self-defensive reaction – is much more excusable than the nationalism of peoples who oppress; but, if the nationalism of the strong is ignoble, the nationalism of the weak is imprudent; both give birth to and support each other…”
Ludwik Lejzer Zamenhof, 1914


----------



## gosub (Oct 4, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> didn't james connolly say the cause of ireland is the cause of labour and the cause of labour is the cause of ireland?
> 
> or was it the other way round?


Sounds about right,  the enemy were the landed gentry many of whom had/have estates in more than one place ...labelled them as the English  .. (til gunboat diplomacy and black and tans escalated problem)

Problem (now) with United Ireland (I think)is the knock on effect on Scotland....Think there's lessons from Ireland that weren't learned but could be.  Scottish land owners ARE well represented in Westminster..what is it something like 100 people own 90% of Scotland by area.  Most of them have got a swat in the Lords,General Scots population however that's a different story


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 4, 2021)

gosub said:


> Sounds about right,  the enemy were the landed gentry many of whom had/have estates in more than one place ...labelled them as the English  .. (til gunboat diplomacy and black and tans escalated problem)
> 
> Problem (now) with United Ireland (I think)is the knock on effect on Scotland....Think there's lessons from Ireland that weren't learned but could be.  Scottish land owners ARE well represented in Westminster..what is it something like 100 people own 90% of Scotland by area.  Most of them have got a swat in the Lords,General Scots population however that's a different story


like the 1913 lockout never happened

like the land war had never occurred


----------



## Raheem (Oct 4, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> ... Good post on Urban? No chance.


Let's all go jogging
In our pants.


----------



## andysays (Oct 4, 2021)

bimble said:


> i think its great news that people will be able to fly their private toy planes around without having to waste too much time on unnecessary safety concerns, it's long been one of the pressing concerns of the nation.


I can think of one prominent Brexit campaigner whose past experience suggests he will be looking forward to deregulation in this particular area.


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 5, 2021)

Terrible queues due to Brexit at Faro Airport Border Control


----------



## Yossarian (Oct 5, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Terrible queues due to Brexit at Faro Airport Border Control
> 
> View attachment 291304



"HGV drivers heading to Britain for three-month contracts will be given priority boarding, please don't all rush to the front at once."


----------



## teqniq (Oct 5, 2021)

The view from across the channel:


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 5, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Terrible queues due to Brexit at Faro Airport Border Control
> 
> View attachment 291304



all the brexit voting ex pat had had to sell their homes and move back to no wondered it quite


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 5, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> all the brexit voting ex pat had had to sell their homes and move back to no wondered it quite


This is the sort high level well thought out incisive and strong factual based  analysis that makes Urban what it is


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 5, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> This is the sort high level well thought out incisive and string factual based  analysis that makes Urban what it is


#urbanatitsbest


----------



## philosophical (Oct 5, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> PCP , the Portuguese Communist Party bills itself as a patriotic and left alternative whilst it has an internationalist perspective .



I have tried to do a little bit of research on the Portuguese Communist Party. I can’t find information as to how nationalist they are, or how/if they promote nationalism.
There seems to be some kind of notion that they are ‘patriotic’, but nothing about what that means or how it manifests itself.
My take on patriotism is that those in power expect you to suffer and die for them because the powerful declare it as your duty.
Indeed there is the saying ‘my country right or wrong’, and exhortations about loyalty are used to manipulate.
Loving a specific culture, or aspects of culture is not nationalism or patriotism the way I see it. Indeed the enrichment of our language and our society by being open to difference is one of the positive things about living in London for me.
In terms of Ireland I would fully support resisting the constraints of the powerful in that land, but not because of some kind of romanticised patriotism, but because oppression has to be resisted.
If that oppression is based on race, which it has alway been when the mainland UK regards Ireland, then I can see how a kind of nationalism is invoked by that race as a kind of flag of resistance, but for me I agree with the quote helpfully posted above by Serge Forward.


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 5, 2021)

hmm did you not just come off the amber list yesterday as well 

see my mom like going to portugal not in october mind as its only 20 degrees plus seeming as she won't get vaccinated until today she could not even get into the country


----------



## two sheds (Oct 5, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> #urbanatitsbest


should be an apostrophe in there somewhere


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 5, 2021)

only so we can argue if it is in the right place or needed

*shakes fist at sky


----------



## two sheds (Oct 5, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> or needed


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 5, 2021)

two sheds said:


> should be an apostrophe in there somewhere


----------



## MysteryGuest (Oct 5, 2021)

Who's Urbana Titsbest?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 5, 2021)

MysteryGuest said:


> Who's Urbana Titsbest?


sunlit uplands' original username


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 5, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> This is the sort high level well thought out incisive and string factual based  analysis that makes Urban what it is



of course the picture of an empty airport queue is about as factual as the picture of an empty beard shelf  in my local Asda


----------



## Raheem (Oct 5, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> an empty beard shelf  in my local Asda


No problem there. I'll just grow my own.


----------



## gosub (Oct 5, 2021)

Raheem said:


> No problem there. I'll just grow my own.


Thats the trouble with the modern world, everybody wants off the shelf instant results.

Youth of today, no patience


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 5, 2021)

Raheem said:


> No problem there. I'll just grow my own.


 think you missed the season quite sure you need to plant you Asda seeds in late spring/early summer


----------



## bimble (Oct 5, 2021)

Looks like pet food will be full of pork soon, as the farmers have started disposing of their pigs, which we won't get to eat, but my cat probably will. Meanwhile 'there will be shortages of ham and pigs in blanket at xmas'. 








						Hundreds of healthy pigs slaughtered amid UK shortage of abattoir workers
					

Farmers warned that up to 120,000 animals face being slaughtered as they lack space to house them




					www.theguardian.com
				











						UK faces Christmas without pigs in blankets amid labor shortage
					

The British Meat Processors Association says supplies of ‘pigs in blankets, decorated gammon and party food’ will struggle without action.




					www.politico.eu
				



What a stupid country.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 5, 2021)

bimble said:


> Looks like pet food will be full of pork soon, as the farmers have started disposing of their pigs, which we won't get to eat, but my cat probably will. Meanwhile 'there will be shortages of ham and pigs in blanket at xmas'.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


you mistake the government for the country


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 5, 2021)

philosophical said:


> I have tried to do a little bit of research on the Portuguese Communist Party. I can’t find information as to how nationalist they are, or how/if they promote nationalism.
> There seems to be some kind of notion that they are ‘patriotic’, but nothing about what that means or how it manifests itself.
> My take on patriotism is that those in power expect you to suffer and die for them because the powerful declare it as your duty.
> Indeed there is the saying ‘my country right or wrong’, and exhortations about loyalty are used to manipulate.
> ...


Briefly as I’m in a pub and low battery . The PCP believe that the democratic institutions and constitution of Portugal , which came into being after the revolution in which they played a prominent role , are the vehicle for for national change not the EU. Their patriotism is based on the defence of those reforms that were won by the Portuguese working classes. So they’ll criticise the other parties for not acting in the national interest .


----------



## philosophical (Oct 5, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Briefly as I’m in a pub and low battery . The PCP believe that the democratic institutions and constitution of Portugal , which came into being after the revolution in which they played a prominent role , are the vehicle for for national change not the EU. Their patriotism is based on the defence of those reforms that were won by the Portuguese working classes. So they’ll criticise the other parties for not acting in the national interest .


Thank you.


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Oct 5, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> you mistake the government for the country


Och well It's a step down from yesterday when 8ball had us all up in the EU's shit writing the maastricht treaty.


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 5, 2021)

god damn it wrong thread


----------



## TopCat (Oct 6, 2021)

*Brexit fishing power play –* The EU could cut Jersey and Britain’s electricity supply over the UK’s failure to provide sufficient fishing licences to the French, says France’s EU affairs minister, Clément Beaune. “Enough already, we have an agreement negotiated by France, by Michel Barnier, and it should be applied 100%. It isn’t being. In the next few days … we will take measures at the European level or nationally to apply pressure on the United Kingdom.” The UK partly relies on electricity from France. Under the post-Brexit agreement struck on Christmas Eve, the EU can take measures “proportionate to the alleged failure by the respondent party”. That could be extended to the energy supply to the rest of the UK, but would need to be proportional and agreed to by other member states.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 6, 2021)

Cutting their energy supplies would really be seen as spiteful here in the UK.


----------



## bimble (Oct 6, 2021)

Load of sabre rattling. 
There's also this, French fishermen are going to blocade us & we will all have to eat beans on toast at christmas.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 6, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Cutting their energy supplies would really be seen as spiteful here in the UK.


Maybe, but a very direct message that “Taking back control” is not a zero sum game?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 6, 2021)

Last week France was bleating that the bigger boys left them out of the world stage AUKUS thing, so this week France decides to threaten a tiny island relative of the U.K.

At school we had a word for those who engaged in such activities.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 6, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Last week France was bleating that the bigger boys left them out of the world stage AUKUS thing, so this week France decides to threaten a tiny island relative of the U.K.
> 
> At school we had a word for those who engaged in such activities.


Yes, governments


----------



## ska invita (Oct 6, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Last week France was bleating that the bigger boys left them out of the world stage AUKUS thing, so this week France decides to threaten a tiny island relative of the U.K.
> 
> At school we had a word for those who engaged in such activities.


its not "France", its workers threatening direct action to defend their livelihoods


----------



## isvicthere? (Oct 6, 2021)

bimble said:


> Load of sabre rattling.
> There's also this, French fishermen are going to blocade us & we will all have to eat beans on toast at christmas. View attachment 291408


 Just an observation: in what way are French _(and_ British) products not "European"?


----------



## TopCat (Oct 6, 2021)

ska invita said:


> its not "France", its workers threatening direct action to defend their livelihoods


Stopping French exports? *How does that benefit French workers then?* Personally Christmas will be fine without French origin food. ska invita


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 6, 2021)

ska invita said:


> its not "France", its workers threatening direct action to defend their livelihoods




Clément Beaune is not a worker. Nor is Jean Castex


----------



## ska invita (Oct 6, 2021)

This comes from the fishers themselves and their representation, which has influence in government

The trigger is fishers are being denied permits, which they have previously been given


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 6, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> At school we had a word for those who engaged in such activities.



Agincourt?  

and on at Crispen day the check of the French bastard's


----------



## ska invita (Oct 6, 2021)

Its amazing to me that Britain has managed to hang on to its enclaves lives Jersey and Gibraltar despite the centuries of war


----------



## brogdale (Oct 6, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> Agincourt?
> 
> and on at Crispen day the check of the French bastard's


25th October.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 6, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Its amazing to me that Britain has managed to hang on to its enclaves lives Jersey and Gibraltar despite the centuries of war


Never have enough tax havens.


----------



## bimble (Oct 6, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Stopping French exports? How does that benefit French workers then? Personally Christmas will be fine without French origin food.


Are you saying that making it harder to export stuff from a country would be a bad thing for workers there?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 6, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Its amazing to me that Britain has managed to hang on to its enclaves lives Jersey and Gibraltar despite the centuries of war


That's what happens if you're on the winning side


----------



## TopCat (Oct 6, 2021)

French Europe Minister Clément Beaune told Europe 1 radio: "The UK depends on our energy exports, they think they can live alone while also beating up on Europe and, given that it doesn't work, they engage in aggressive one-upmanship."


----------



## TopCat (Oct 6, 2021)

bimble said:


> Are you saying that making it harder to export stuff from a country would be a bad thing for workers there?


I asked how it benefits French workers. Care to have a go answering as Ska has gone all quiet?


----------



## ska invita (Oct 6, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Never have enough tax havens.


oh sure, theyre super strategic, especially from a naval point of view, just id expect imperial nations like france and spain would pick an opportune moment to grab them back.


----------



## Sprocket. (Oct 6, 2021)

brogdale said:


> 25th October.


About quarter past two.


----------



## ska invita (Oct 6, 2021)

TopCat said:


> I asked how it benefits French workers. Care to have a go answering as Ska has gone all quiet?


whats the question? are you asking why there shouldnt be trade wars because its bad for workers?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 6, 2021)

ska invita said:


> oh sure, theyre super strategic, especially from a naval point of view, just id expect imperial nations like france and spain would pick an opportune moment to grab them back.


You mean they've just been lulling the UK into a false sense of security over the past several centuries


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 6, 2021)

ska invita said:


> whats the question? are you asking why there shouldnt be trade wars because its bad for workers?


Here's a hint, the question's in post 8236


----------



## bimble (Oct 6, 2021)

TopCat said:


> I asked how it benefits French workers. Care to have a go answering as Ska has gone all quiet?


I suspect you're being extra stupid on purpose now. I agree with you that making it harder to export stuff is a bad idea and does not benefit workers in the country where that happens.


----------



## ska invita (Oct 6, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Stopping French exports? *How does that benefit French workers then?* Personally Christmas will be fine without French origin food. ska invita


btw its not just French origin food that comes through Calais, as Dominc Raab found out  recently


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 6, 2021)

ska invita said:


> btw its not just French origin food that comes through Calais, as Dominc Raab found out  recently


If a week is a long time in politics then three years is an eternity


----------



## gosub (Oct 6, 2021)

Oh god is somebody shutting the sea again


----------



## Badgers (Oct 6, 2021)

TopCat said:


> French Europe Minister Clément Beaune told Europe 1 radio: "The UK depends on our energy exports, they think they can live alone while also beating up on Europe and, given that it doesn't work, they engage in aggressive one-upmanship."


Sounds fair


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 6, 2021)

ska invita said:


> The trigger is fishers are being denied permits, which they have previously been given



It's a bit more complicated than that.

Jersey and France had a reciprocal arrangement to grant licences to each others fishing fleets in each others waters. Historically, hundreds of French boats fish in Jersey waters but only a handful of Jersey boats (about 5) fish in French waters. There have been agreements between both parties to prevent overfishing of the Jersey waters, one of which is the licensing of boats. Jersey has issued licences to French boats who have been able to prove that they've complied with the requirements of the agreement between 2017 and 2020. However, not all French boats fish Jersey waters and many that historically haven't, have applied for licences just in case they want to in the future. They want the right to do so even if they haven't done so in the relatively recent past. Others have fished Jersey waters in the past but not in accordance with the licensing terms, or at least couldn't prove that they had. After the last spat, Jersey extended an amnesty to French boats to give them time to produce the required documentation. That's now due to expire and those French boats who've been unable to produce the documentation (a lot of it has apparently been ‘lost in the post’) are kicking off.

Because there's a massive disparity between the numbers of French boats fishing Jersey waters and Jersey boats fishing French ones, the French can't respond in kind by refusing licences to Jersey boats. On the contrary, they have argued that they’ve granted licences to 100% of Jersey applicants _but that’s only 5 boats_ and their stocks aren’t being overfished anyway because much of the Normandy fleet is depleting Jersey waters not French ones. So they threaten the power supply instead!


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 6, 2021)

ska invita said:


> oh sure, theyre super strategic, especially from a naval point of view, just id expect imperial nations like france and spain would pick an opportune moment to grab them back.




And Morocco nabs Cueta, Melilla, Alhucemas, Penon & the Chafarinas. A cheeky grab of the Canaries too, as valid, if not more than Spain's ally's claim to the Falklands. 

And France, pisstaking fuckers, their overseas territories, pardonnez-moi, collectivities, are scattered around the globe as much as the UK's, Saint Pierre & Miquelon exists purely to allow France access to Canada's fishing waters, to plunder North Atlantic cod and other species. There's a theme here...


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 6, 2021)

and on st Crispen day...!!


----------



## philosophical (Oct 6, 2021)

TopCat said:


> *Brexit fishing power play –* The EU could cut Jersey and Britain’s electricity supply over the UK’s failure to provide sufficient fishing licences to the French, says France’s EU affairs minister, Clément Beaune. “Enough already, we have an agreement negotiated by France, by Michel Barnier, and it should be applied 100%. It isn’t being. In the next few days … we will take measures at the European level or nationally to apply pressure on the United Kingdom.” The UK partly relies on electricity from France. Under the post-Brexit agreement struck on Christmas Eve, the EU can take measures “proportionate to the alleged failure by the respondent party”. That could be extended to the energy supply to the rest of the UK, but would need to be proportional and agreed to by other member states.


No biggie for leave voters who said they need us more than we need them.
Tories will be delighted in the ‘high skilled high paid jobs’ in the candle industry.


----------



## ska invita (Oct 6, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> And Morocco nabs Cueta, Melilla, Alhucemas, Penon & the Chafarinas. A cheeky grab of the Canaries too, as valid, if not more than Spain's ally's claim to the Falklands.
> 
> And France, pisstaking fuckers, their overseas territories, pardonnez-moi, collectivities, are scattered around the globe as much as the UK's, Saint Pierre & Miquelon exists purely to allow France access to Canada's fishing waters, to plunder North Atlantic cod and other species. There's a theme here...


The theme is imperialism and national competition yeah?


----------



## dessiato (Oct 6, 2021)

I was in Grimsby/Cleethorpes last week. The area was Brexit, I've seldom seen anywhere so bigoted or so blinkered, and I say this as someone who has regularly been exposed to racism there. 

I'm pleased I don't live there anymore. They deserve all the shit they're getting.


----------



## MickiQ (Oct 6, 2021)

ska invita said:


> btw its not just French origin food that comes through Calais, as Dominc Raab found out  recently


That's the most redundant article I've read for a while 
Once you get past the first sentence 
*Dominic Raab has come under fire for saying he "hadn't quite understood" *

then there is pretty much no point for the rest of it, God he's thick isn't he?


----------



## dessiato (Oct 6, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> That's the most redundant article I've read for a while
> Once you get past the first sentence
> *Dominic Raab has come under fire for saying he "hadn't quite understood" *
> 
> then there is pretty much no point for the rest of it, God he's thick isn't he?


But he's in government so he knows best, doesn't he?


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 6, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> You mean they've just been lulling the UK into a false sense of security over the past several centuries



 Indeed. Nearly 8 centuries in the case of Jersey.


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 6, 2021)

dessiato said:


> I was in Grimsby/Cleethorpes last week. The area was Brexit, I've seldom seen anywhere so bigoted or so blinkered, and I say this as someone who has regularly been exposed to racism there.
> 
> I'm pleased I don't live there anymore. They deserve all the shit they're getting.


What’s the politics like in your new area in Spain ? 
I remember you saying the last area was full of far right Vox supporters


----------



## bimble (Oct 6, 2021)

dessiato said:


> But he's in government so he knows best, doesn't he?


He is famous all over again today.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Oct 6, 2021)

bimble said:


> He is famous all over again today.


----------



## MickiQ (Oct 6, 2021)

bimble said:


> He is famous all over again today.



I stand by my previous assessment of him


----------



## dessiato (Oct 6, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> What’s the politics like in your new area in Spain ?
> I remember you saying the last area was full of far right Vox supporters


This town seems very different, and although very small much more cosmopolitan. The only person I've spoken to about politics is a 91 year old whose parents were local Republican organisers during the war. 

Interestingly as he spoke about it his voice dropped to barely above a whisper. Franco was born about an hour and a half from here.

To the point, I think the area is likely to be politically mixed.


----------



## gosub (Oct 6, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> That's the most redundant article I've read for a while
> Once you get past the first sentence
> *Dominic Raab has come under fire for saying he "hadn't quite understood" *
> 
> then there is pretty much no point for the rest of it, God he's thick isn't he?



Just checking you are a bloke.  If not, such rampant misogyny is uncalled for


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 6, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> then there is pretty much no point for the rest of it, God he's thick isn't he?


Politician in thick as pigshit shock 

Tell me it ain't so


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 6, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Dominic Rabb in thick as pigshit shock
> 
> Tell me it ain't so



ftfy


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 6, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> ftfy


Not just raab tho is it. There's another 600+ stupid wankers in the commons alone


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 6, 2021)

Rabb a special case mind


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 6, 2021)

ska invita said:


> The theme is imperialism and national competition yeah?




Synonym = cuntism.


----------



## Badgers (Oct 6, 2021)

Cheap European pork floods UK market as mass pig cull begins
					

Farming's Brexit-induced labour crisis has been worsened by cheap EU pork flooding the market.




					www.thelondoneconomic.com


----------



## TopCat (Oct 6, 2021)

dessiato said:


> I was in Grimsby/Cleethorpes last week. The area was Brexit, I've seldom seen anywhere so bigoted or so blinkered, and I say this as someone who has regularly been exposed to racism there.
> 
> I'm pleased I don't live there anymore. They deserve all the shit they're getting.


All the people of Grimbsy and Cleethorpes deserve shit?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 6, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> Rabb a special case mind


Not to be confused with raab


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 6, 2021)

dessiato said:


> I was in Grimsby/Cleethorpes last week. The area was Brexit, I've seldom seen anywhere so bigoted or so blinkered, and I say this as someone who has regularly been exposed to racism there.
> 
> I'm pleased I don't live there anymore. They deserve all the shit they're getting.


They're getting lots of shit they don't deserve. And I wonder who is expected to live in all the flash houses being built on fields on the outskirts of Grimsby.


----------



## bimble (Oct 6, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Cheap European pork floods UK market as mass pig cull begins
> 
> 
> Farming's Brexit-induced labour crisis has been worsened by cheap EU pork flooding the market.
> ...


This too is just part of the plan, the whole pork situation is not completely batshit insane at all, just part of the process of getting to a High Wage Economy, as the PM keeps explaining.


----------



## ska invita (Oct 6, 2021)

...just wait till the CAP payments go in three years (IIRC) time - cant see how it wont be all over for UK meat farmers
Sell pork bellies


----------



## bimble (Oct 6, 2021)

It is pretty amazing watching them (the PM, other government people) this last couple of weeks as they've all stopped saying that there are no issues, or that its covid, or that its the same everywhere. Instead they've been saying that they totally knew these things would happen, the project fear things, but shortages are either all the fault of businesses who should have prepared (even though for years they've been told it was all just project fear) or else the shortages are actually good, are the growing pains of a brilliant new era, and were part of the plan all along. Completely shameless.


----------



## extra dry (Oct 6, 2021)

Ooh these things that the politians knew would happen, are happening, who will rescue the UK?


----------



## bimble (Oct 6, 2021)

extra dry said:


> Ooh these things that the politians knew would happen, are happening, who will rescue the UK?


i don't think they did know. I don't think they spent 5 minutes thinking about pigs, or petrol.


----------



## Raheem (Oct 6, 2021)

bimble said:


> i don't think they did know. I don't think they spent 5 minutes thinking about pigs.


That's where Cameron would have come in useful.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 6, 2021)

bimble said:


> It is pretty amazing watching them (the PM, other government people) this last couple of weeks as they've all stopped saying that there are no issues, or that its covid, or that its the same everywhere. Instead they've been saying that they totally knew these things would happen, the project fear things, but shortages are either all the fault of businesses who should have prepared (even though for years they've been told it was all just project fear) or else the shortages are actually good, are the growing pains of a brilliant new era, and were part of the plan all along. Completely shameless.


We have always been at war with eastasia


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 6, 2021)

extra dry said:


> Ooh these things that the politians knew would happen, are happening, who will rescue the UK?


David miliband out of international rescue, the king over the water


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 6, 2021)

bimble said:


> This too is just part of the plan, the whole pork situation is not completely batshit insane at all, just part of the process of getting to a High Wage Economy, as the PM keeps explaining.


I for one look forward to receiving high wages. Or at least what my job was worth in 2008 in real terms


----------



## bimble (Oct 6, 2021)

Boris Johnson's speech today, he weirdly chose to not say that it was brexit that gave us Britain's vaccine successes but put it down to something he actually believes in instead.
"“Behind those vaccines are companies and shareholders and, yes, bankers – you need the deep pools of liquidity that are to be found in the City of London,” he said. “It was capitalism that ensured we had the vaccine investment.”


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 6, 2021)

bimble said:


> Boris Johnson's speech today, he weirdly chose to not say that it was brexit that gave us Britain's vaccine successes but put it down to something he actually believes in instead.
> "“Behind those vaccines are companies and shareholders and, yes, bankers – you need the deep pools of liquidity that are to be found in the City of London,” he said. “It was capitalism that ensured we had the vaccine investment.”


So nothing to do with the government then


----------



## ska invita (Oct 6, 2021)

bimble said:


> the shortages are actually good, are the growing pains of a brilliant new era, and were part of the plan all along. Completely shameless.


its a message that is infinitely better than Starmers, and will in fact very likely win them the next election


----------



## bimble (Oct 6, 2021)

ska invita said:


> its a message that is infinitely better than Starmers, and will in fact very likely win them the next election


Probably. The sunny optimism and bluster might get a bit old, depending on how long that's all they've got to offer and how bad things are for people, but yeah if starmer has a message at all i've not noticed it.


----------



## ska invita (Oct 6, 2021)

bimble said:


> Probably. The sunny optimism and bluster might get a bit old, depending on how long that's all they've got to offer and how bad things are for people, but yeah if starmer has a message at all i've not noticed it.


Starmers message is 100,000 temporary visas. Another Brexit election looms, Brexit sinking Labour once again


----------



## Boris Sprinkler (Oct 6, 2021)

we just drew dicks on the Tricolor french textbooks so all's fair and that.


----------



## Boris Sprinkler (Oct 6, 2021)

Boris Sprinkler said:


> we just drew dicks on the Tricolor french textbooks so all's fair and that.


not just now. 30 years ago. Every picture of the eiffel tower turned into a cartoon style knob.


----------



## dessiato (Oct 6, 2021)

TopCat said:


> All the people of Grimbsy and Cleethorpes deserve shit?


The 70% who voted for it, definitely.


----------



## gosub (Oct 6, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> We have always been at war with eastasia


At least you can buy a pint now so it won't be 1984


----------



## TopCat (Oct 6, 2021)

dessiato said:


> The 70% who voted for it, definitely.


Sooner you fuck off the better frankly.


----------



## dessiato (Oct 6, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Sooner you fuck off the better frankly.


Already have. I don't live there anymore. I don't like living with racists, with homophobes, misogynists, and the other scum that are so often present there.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 6, 2021)

dessiato said:


> Already have. I don't live there anymore. I don't like living with racists, with homophobes, misogynists, and the other scum that are so often present there.


Don’t come back.


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 6, 2021)

Charming


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 6, 2021)

Boris Sprinkler said:


> we just drew dicks on the Tricolor french textbooks so all's fair and that.





Boris Sprinkler said:


> not just now. 30 years ago. Every picture of the eiffel tower turned into a cartoon style knob.


 on st Crispen's day ...


----------



## brogdale (Oct 6, 2021)

A sort of Etonian/Bullingdon End of Days vibe going down in Kent...


----------



## bimble (Oct 6, 2021)

Shouldn’t laugh, it’s grim as fuck but you would notice wouldn’t you.


----------



## dessiato (Oct 6, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Don’t come back.


I won't, there's too many cunts, like you, there.


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 6, 2021)

brogdale said:


> A sort of Etonian/Bullingdon End of Days vibe going down in Kent...




where David living these days


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 6, 2021)

thread took a strange turn now telling people to fuck off and never come back


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 6, 2021)

.


----------



## scalyboy (Oct 6, 2021)

bimble said:


> Shouldn’t laugh, it’s grim as fuck but you would notice wouldn’t you.
> View attachment 291449


"Have you noticed boxes of bones on the pavement while you're stuck in an enormous traffic jam one mile from the nearest garage waiting your turn to fill up your car so you can drive to work and get taxed to fuck" - state of the nation.


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 6, 2021)

don't worry we are leveling up the rich people of the country


----------



## Maltin (Oct 6, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> thread took a strange turn now telling people to fuck off and never come back


Seems appropriate given the reasons a lot of people voted for Brexit.


----------



## Johnny Doe (Oct 6, 2021)

scalyboy said:


> "Have you noticed boxes of bones on the pavement while you're stuck in an enormous traffic jam one mile from the nearest garage waiting your turn to fill up your car so you can drive to work and get taxed to fuck" - state of the nation.


Enitely balanced by blue passports and racist pensioners getting sent home from Costa Del Sol wth suitcases full of sovereignty


----------



## bimble (Oct 6, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> So nothing to do with the government then


Definitely nothing to do with the EU anyway (which was the main funder of the lab where the oxford jab was created).








						Brexit funding gap for Oxford’s Covid-19 vaccine institute - Research Professional News
					

Jenner Institute out of pocket with expected loss of its largest funder, the European Commission




					www.researchprofessionalnews.com


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 6, 2021)

bimble said:


> Definitely nothing to do with the EU anyway (which was the main funder of the lab where the oxford jab was created).
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That piece is 13 months old. Got an update?

Do you read these articles you post, or just the headlines?


----------



## cupid_stunt (Oct 6, 2021)

bimble said:


> Definitely nothing to do with the EU anyway (which was the main funder of the lab where the oxford jab was created).
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You mean the main funder with money from the UK, minus their take.


----------



## bimble (Oct 6, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> That piece is 13 months old. Got an update?
> 
> Do you read these articles you post, or just the headlines?


yes ? Its an article saying that for years their main funder was the EU. It even has sara gilbert before she became a national hero, saying so. 
 I found that interesting, so I posted it.
Maybe they've been promised the same money by the Uk government i have not checked. If you want to know you could start here.


----------



## bimble (Oct 6, 2021)

cupid_stunt said:


> You mean the main funder with money from the UK, minus their take.


eh? You mean to say all EU Comission money was actually OURS? thats an interesting point of view.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Oct 6, 2021)

bimble said:


> eh? You mean to say all EU Comission money was actually OURS? thats an interesting point of view.


No, but are you not aware we paid more in than what came back?


----------



## Raheem (Oct 6, 2021)

They should knock that place down, rebuilt it, and say it was urban rejenneration.


----------



## Yossarian (Oct 6, 2021)

cupid_stunt said:


> You mean the main funder with money from the UK



Seems like a good way of keeping the money out of the pockets of Boris Johnson's friends.


----------



## bimble (Oct 6, 2021)

cupid_stunt said:


> No, but are you not aware we paid more in than what came back?


sigh. we were 'net contributers' yes I heard. Let's see what happens, we should be loaded then, plenty of money to replace all the EU funding, silly scientists worrying about it they should know that the government will step in.


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 6, 2021)

you know if we carry on ape american like this in ten years we have a poplulist TV presenter taking over from Boris in NO 10,

so the question is who Ant or Dec, who going to start the line that the torys were betrayed by brexit and must take back control to build britain great again


----------



## Yossarian (Oct 6, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> you know if we carry on ape american like this in ten years we have a poplulist TV presenter taking over from Boris in NO 10,
> 
> so the question is who Ant or Dec, who going to start the line that the torys were betrayed by brexit and must take back control to build britain great again



Might be a job for Carol Vorderman.


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 6, 2021)

not sure if she would go that dark


maybe jeremy vine or greg davis


----------



## Serge Forward (Oct 6, 2021)

Richard Madeley.


----------



## AnandLeo (Oct 6, 2021)

There is a shortage of 100,000 HGV drivers. Government offered temporary visas with strict conditions of stay for 5,000 drivers in the EU. One hundred twenty five HGV drivers in EU applied for temporary visas. We might be living in cloud cuckoo land.


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 6, 2021)

don't worry we be living in inflation land soon

it about leveling up as they take peoples homes


----------



## Yossarian (Oct 6, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> not sure if she would go that dark
> 
> 
> maybe jeremy vine or greg davis



It'd probably have to be someone more statesmanlike and respectable than Johnson.


----------



## krtek a houby (Oct 6, 2021)

A grotesque and terrifying character


----------



## Yossarian (Oct 6, 2021)

If they rebrand him as Mr. Brexit and get the blobby bastard to spend the entire campaign running around saying "Brexit Brexit Brexit," they won't even have to update their election playbook from 2019.


----------



## Elpenor (Oct 6, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> If they rebrand him as Mr. Brexit and get the blobby bastard to spend the entire campaign running around saying "Brexit Brexit Brexit," they won't even have to update their election playbook from 2019.


Paging Lynton Crosby


----------



## Badgers (Oct 7, 2021)




----------



## ska invita (Oct 7, 2021)

.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 7, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> It'd probably have to be someone more statesmanlike and respectable than Johnson.
> 
> 
> View attachment 291518


noel edmonds is being ennobled to become lord edmonds of crinkley bottom, and once installed in the lords he is set to take over from david frost - as frost was only brought into things because boris johnson thought him to be the famous interviewer of the same name. the dead david frost would have done a far better job of negotiating a brexit deal from beyond the grave than the living one managed.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Oct 7, 2021)

Even the veg box companies are calling the government shit.


----------



## MrSki (Oct 7, 2021)

Oh well the UK can always import their chips.









> Intel boss says they would "absolutely" have considered the UK for a location if it were in the EU.











						Intel not considering UK chip factory after Brexit
					

Boss Pat Gelsinger said the chip-maker would "absolutely" have considered the UK if it was part of the EU.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## hash tag (Oct 8, 2021)

Is our delightful government pumping millions into our NHS or is it coming from the money we saved by leaving?


----------



## brogdale (Oct 8, 2021)




----------



## krtek a houby (Oct 8, 2021)

brogdale said:


> View attachment 291675



Ah, now. Passengers knew the score when they booked to leave port.


----------



## _Russ_ (Oct 8, 2021)

I think there is a danger of blaming everything on the direct effects of Brexit, as oppossed to the very real negative influence of  having a bunch of cunts governing us afterwards. Yes I know the 2 things are linked, but I feel if  Brexit had happened under a different even vaguely competent administration then some of this shit would be lessened


----------



## philosophical (Oct 8, 2021)

_Russ_ said:


> I think there is a danger of blaming everything on the direct effects of Brexit, as oppossed to the very real negative influence of  having a bunch of cunts governing us afterwards. Yes I know the 2 things are linked, but I feel if  Brexit had happened under a different even vaguely competent administration then some of this shit would be lessened



Whoever would be in charge after a vote for the UK to leave the EU the shit in Ireland would’ve happened.
Two different systems with a border in between means conflict with the terms of the Belfast Agreement.
In my view the Irish situation encapsulates all that is bad about the vote to leave for the whole of the UK.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 8, 2021)

_Russ_ said:


> I think there is a danger of blaming everything on the direct effects of Brexit, as oppossed to the very real negative influence of  having a bunch of cunts governing us afterwards. Yes I know the 2 things are linked, but I feel if  Brexit had happened under a different even vaguely competent administration then some of this shit would be lessened


Yeah, but probably best we stick to Actually Existing Brexit (AEB), rather than any hypotheticals, eh?


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Oct 8, 2021)

_Russ_ said:


> I think there is a danger of blaming everything on the direct effects of Brexit, as oppossed to the very real negative influence of  having a bunch of cunts governing us afterwards. Yes I know the 2 things are linked, but I feel if  Brexit had happened under a different even vaguely competent administration then some of this shit would be lessened



Yes, as Larry Elliot has pointed out in the Guardian this morning the vote opened up a real opportunity for a party on the left to own the future but "one reason is that the Conservatives are united behind a plan for post-Brexit Britain they believe in, while Labour would rather not talk about Brexit at all. This is not a good place to be – and something the relatively small number of Labour Brexiters feared would happen. They argued – as Johnson is now doing – that leaving the EU presented an opportunity to restructure the economy and warned that if a party of the left did not make a positive case for change, then the vacuum would be filled by the right".

The tragedy of Corbynism was its defeat by and its eventual capitulation to the liberal remainers in the party. Had Labour gone into the 2019 election promising to deliver Brexit, setting out how its economic plan would restructure a post Brexit economy (the high wage economy that Johnson has now stumbled upon as an _idea _but with a set of serious commitments to end precarity, better employment rights, an end to fire and re-hire, sectoral bargaining, a collective bargaining framework bringing trade unions to the table, a national investment bank etc etc) then things would have been different. As it is Labour's response to the current crisis indicates that far from learning the lessons the party intends to keep digging the hole that its created for itself and may end up buried in.


----------



## Badgers (Oct 8, 2021)

_Russ_ said:


> I think there is a danger of blaming everything on the direct effects of Brexit, as oppossed to the very real negative influence of  having a bunch of cunts governing us afterwards. Yes I know the 2 things are linked, but I feel if  Brexit had happened under a different even vaguely competent administration then some of this shit would be lessened


I probably would have voted for Brexit under Corbyn than Remain under the #ToryScum.


----------



## _Russ_ (Oct 8, 2021)

philosophical said:


> Whoever would be in charge after a vote for the UK to leave the EU the shit in Ireland would’ve happened.
> Two different systems with a border in between means conflict with the terms of the Belfast Agreement.
> In my view the Irish situation encapsulates all that is bad about the vote to leave for the whole of the UK.


To be completely Honest, I dont give anywhere near as much of a fuck about Ireland as  the media, politicians and big business do
I doubt i'm in the minority (well I probably am in here)


----------



## philosophical (Oct 8, 2021)

If you give a fuck about the UK, then technically you give a fuck about Ireland.


----------



## rubbershoes (Oct 8, 2021)

_Russ_ said:


> To be completely Honest, I dont give anywhere near as much of a fuck about Ireland as  the media, politicians and big business do
> I doubt i'm in the minority (well I probably am in here)



The government seems to take the same attitude as you, which is why they completely failed to think about NI until the last minute


----------



## Yossarian (Oct 8, 2021)

Badgers said:


> I probably would have voted for Brexit under Corbyn than Remain under the #ToryScum.



I'd have chosen a Corbrexit over the Lib Dems and their promise of stopping Brexit without holding another referendum.


----------



## krtek a houby (Oct 8, 2021)

_Russ_ said:


> To be completely Honest, I dont give anywhere near as much of a fuck about Ireland as  the media, politicians and big business do
> I doubt i'm in the minority (well I probably am in here)



You're ok with us getting the 6 counties back, though, surely?


----------



## gosub (Oct 8, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> I'd have chosen a Corbrexit over the Lib Dems and their promise of stopping Brexit without holding another referendum.


I thought Labour settled on policy of negotiate a better Brexit deal  and then campaign against it.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Oct 8, 2021)

_Russ_ said:


> To be completely Honest, I dont give anywhere near as much of a fuck about Ireland as  the media, politicians and big business do
> I doubt i'm in the minority (well I probably am in here)



Nobody* in England gives a shit about Ireland until the bombs start going off - which is why Boris happily threw the DUP under a bus and put up a customs border in the Irish Sea despite 5 years of people saying “no British pm would ever do this”

*important or the bulk of the electorate, as someone of Irish descent I care natch


----------



## gosub (Oct 8, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Nobody* in England gives a shit about Ireland until the bombs start going off - which is why Boris happily threw the DUP under a bus and put up a customs border in the Irish Sea despite 5 years of people saying “no British pm would ever do this”
> 
> *important or the bulk of the electorate, as someone of Irish descent I care natch


WAs very limp wrist ed negotiate to be sure.   Fuckers didn't even try to get it renamed the Welsh Channel


----------



## Badgers (Oct 8, 2021)

Who are you backing Brexit voters? 

Five candidates in battle to lead UK’s Brexit opportunities unit​City executives are also awaiting details on the Treasury's plans to rethink parts of the UK rulebook post-Brexit​








						Five candidates in battle to lead UK’s Brexit opportunities unit
					

City executives are also awaiting details on the Treasury's plans to rethink parts of the UK rulebook post-Brexit




					www.fnlondon.com


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 8, 2021)

are we saying brexit had nothing to do with freedom


just a chance to make money but changing the rule book?

who'd of thunk it


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 8, 2021)

gosub said:


> WAs very limp wrist ed negotiate to be sure.   Fuckers didn't even try to get it renamed the Welsh Channel


Very limp wristed? Very homophobic


----------



## brogdale (Oct 8, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> are we saying brexit had nothing to do with freedom
> 
> 
> just a chance to make money but changing the rule book?
> ...


The people were asked to express their will on alternative methods of accelerating neoliberalism.


----------



## gosub (Oct 8, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Very limp wristed? Very homophobic


You're sexualizing handshakes now?


----------



## Raheem (Oct 8, 2021)

Why do they even need a Brexit Opportunities Unit when they can just read this thread?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 8, 2021)

gosub said:


> You're sexualizing handshakes now?


This is one of those times when stopping digging now would be a good idea. You don't want to appear stupid as well as homophobic, after all


----------



## _Russ_ (Oct 8, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> This is one of those times when stopping digging now would be a good idea. You don't want to appear stupid as well as homophobic, after all


It simply means effeminate or submissive, its a derogatory term but not exclusively aimed at arse bandits


----------



## brogdale (Oct 8, 2021)

er...


----------



## two sheds (Oct 8, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> This is one of those times when stopping digging now would be a good idea. You don't want to appear stupid as well as homophobic, after all


Too late for Russ I'm afraid


----------



## editor (Oct 9, 2021)

_Russ_ said:


> It simply means effeminate or submissive, its a derogatory term but not exclusively aimed at arse bandits


You're sounding like a homophobic twat bobbin. Stop now please


----------



## krtek a houby (Oct 9, 2021)

_Russ_ said:


> It simply means effeminate or submissive, its a derogatory term but not exclusively aimed at arse bandits


_An occasional arse bandit Republican writes:_ 

Any chance on replying to the question about you being ok or not with returning the 6 counties to us?


----------



## Cloo (Oct 9, 2021)

The Tories seem to have begun with the 'telling people concerned about turkeys and presents that they should ponder the _real_ meaning of Christmas', despite the fact they spent all last autumn letting a huge winter infection level build up by insisting on 'saving Christmas' so as not to put people off spending money in the run up to the Christmas they knew perfectly well wasn't going to be able to proceed as normal.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Oct 9, 2021)

Cloo said:


> The Tories seem to have begun with the 'telling people concerned about turkeys and presents that they should ponder the _real_ meaning of Christmas', despite the fact they spent all last autumn letting a huge winter infection level build up by insisting on 'saving Christmas' so as not to put people off spending money in the run up to the Christmas they knew perfectly well wasn't going to be able to proceed as normal.



2+2 = 5


----------



## dessiato (Oct 9, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> 2+2 = 5


In these times of shrinkflation that should be 2+2=3


----------



## Badgers (Oct 9, 2021)

The new simplified HGV test should speed things up


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 9, 2021)

Badgers said:


> The new simplified HGV test should speed things up
> 
> View attachment 291861


Q2 what do the wheels on the bus do?


----------



## Dogsauce (Oct 9, 2021)

Badgers said:


> The new simplified HGV test should speed things up
> 
> View attachment 291861


It’s not, the steering wheel is on the wrong side. Generally it’s only street sweepers that have this in the UK so I think it’s a cartoon simplification of one of those.

Do I get my licence then?


----------



## Badgers (Oct 9, 2021)

> The European Union must stand ready to send aid to Britain when it is crippled by food and supplies shortages because of Brexit, the former prime minister of Finland has said.
> 
> Alexander Stubb, who unsuccessfully ran to be European Commission president in 2019, said the EU should help a stricken UK even though it was all Britain’s fault.








						Yahoo is now a part of Verizon Media
					






					consent.yahoo.com


----------



## extra dry (Oct 9, 2021)

brogdale said:


> A sort of Etonian/Bullingdon End of Days vibe going down in Kent...



Classick serieal killer plot/story - he or she, feeds the victims to hoggs then slauhters the hoggs selling meat online, to his friends on faceblock or insagram.


----------



## Badgers (Oct 9, 2021)




----------



## gosub (Oct 9, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> This is one of those times when stopping digging now would be a good idea. You don't want to appear stupid as well as homophobic, after all



I read this  this morning,.  As straitened as my current circumstances are, I still have better ways to spend a Friday evening than arguing with dickheads on the internet.  In fact even this morning I found retapping a D10 tread into my engine block a more worthwhile use of my time.   But go fuck yourself.


I had a shit night the evening the Admiral Duncan bomb went off, as I knew my best mate from school days would be in there, but didn't want to add to the the clogging of comms finding out if  he was OK.   As it was the VT post production he was working on over ran and he had a lucky escape. What made that worse was it turned out the cunt that did it was about our age and lived about 1/2 mile from where we both grew up.

6 of guests at my wedding breakfast were gay, including both Bridesmaids, and me and my now ex wife both thought the contribution Lyndsey's mother made on RTE during the Irish referendum on same sex marriage was fantastic.

I have mates who run or work in several pubs and clubs in Edinburgh's pink triangle (or did, not really been in touch since Covid) who gave me a reasonable understanding of some of the shit people still have to put up with.

Seems like a fuller rebuttal  than just pointing out , while that that twat was smearing me,.. the people I was down the pub drinking with included one openly gay man and 2 transsexuals.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 9, 2021)

gosub said:


> I read this  this morning,.  As straitened as my current circumstances are, I still have better ways to spend a Friday evening than arguing with dickheads on the internet.  In fact even this morning I found retapping a D10 tread into my engine block a more worthwhile use of my time.   But go fuck yourself.
> 
> 
> I had a shit night the evening the Admiral Duncan bomb went off, as I knew my best mate from school days would be in there, but didn't want to add to the the clogging of comms finding out if  he was OK.   As it was the VT post production he was working on over ran and he had a lucky escape. What made that worse was it turned out the cunt that did it was about our age and lived about 1/2 mile from where we both grew up.
> ...


Yeh. With all that it's the more surprising that you defend a homophobic phrase instead of holding up your hands and saying my bad. Interesting twist on the some of my best friends bit btw


----------



## gosub (Oct 9, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Yeh. With all that it's the more surprising that you defend a homophobic phrase instead of holding up your hands and saying my bad. Interesting twist on the some of my best friends bit btw


What was that about holes and digging dickheads? 
That post was for the benefit of anyone whom might have thought there was  any veracity to your slurs   

Putting you on ignore , seems like the sensible course of action


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 9, 2021)

gosub said:


> What was that about holes and digging dickheads?
> That post was for the benefit of anyone whom might have thought there was  any veracity to your slurs
> 
> Putting you on ignore , seems like the sensible course of action


Yeh don't take on board the offensiveness of the phrase you use and defend, make out the problem is me


----------



## _Russ_ (Oct 9, 2021)

Twat Bobbin...I like it.
I thought Id make a proper  homophobic comment just for Pickman's model as he was so desperately desperately trying to find one elsewhere...bless


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 9, 2021)

_Russ_ said:


> Twat Bobbin...I like it.
> I thought Id make a proper  homophobic comment just for Pickman's model as he was so desperately desperately trying to find one elsewhere...bless


Either you're desperately looking for a way to extricate yourself from a very plain statement or you think homophobia amusing.


----------



## extra dry (Oct 9, 2021)

I think you two should book a few rounds in any reasonable boxing gym next year


----------



## Artaxerxes (Oct 9, 2021)

Victory in FEB day


----------



## Elpenor (Oct 9, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> View attachment 291954
> 
> Victory in FEB day


We will fight them on the lawn and on the links


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 9, 2021)

of course north ireland that can label its produce as british pork need to import english pork




plus even north ireland pork is tastier than english pork

this is more about england getting pork from the north 

brexit victory 


lol


----------



## Artaxerxes (Oct 9, 2021)

DUP are fond of a bit of pork.


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 9, 2021)

aye and their nextdoor neighbour is the republic who they don't have to pay any fee to bring into the country
also both side of ireland over produced food to the point they can feed more than double or trible their current population


they don't need british bangers


----------



## Yossarian (Oct 9, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> View attachment 291954
> 
> Victory in FEB day



EU: We're willing to consider an exemption to chilled meat regulations in the deal you negotiated.

Telegraph, DM etc:


----------



## brogdale (Oct 9, 2021)

Shirley...


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 9, 2021)

Inspired by bimble posts on here I decided to back a horse called Bimble today . Safe to say that this is the last time I spend any money on Bimble .


----------



## brogdale (Oct 9, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Inspired by bimble posts on here I decided to back a horse called Bimble today . Safe to say that this is the last time I spend any money on Bimble .


Did it _remain _at the back?


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 9, 2021)

on that day that the fail is telling people to start stockpilling food


Step lost money on a horse, maybe you just not that good at gambling


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 9, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Did it _remain _at the back?


Showed potential promise but made little headway


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 9, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Inspired by bimble posts on here I decided to back a horse called Bimble today . Safe to say that this is the last time I spend any money on Bimble .







__





						Bimble | Race Record & Form | Racing Post
					

Bimble statistics and form. View results and future entries as well as statistics by course, race type and prize money.




					www.racingpost.com


----------



## brogdale (Oct 9, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Showed potential promise but made little headway


With your form reading, you really should _leave _the gee gees alone.


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 9, 2021)

brogdale said:


> With your form reading, you really should _leave _the gee gees alone.


Impulse decision , would have been devastated if Bimble had won and hadn’t put a fiver on .


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 9, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Showed potential promise but made little headway



sounds like a Horse called Brexit


----------



## Badgers (Oct 9, 2021)




----------



## rubbershoes (Oct 9, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> 2+2 = 5



2+2 has always equalled 5. Any other answer is wrongthink


----------



## brogdale (Oct 9, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Impulse decision , would have been devastated if Bimble had won and hadn’t put a fiver on .


Reminds me of when I persuaded my (alcohol dependent) MiL to put £1ew on Corbiere in the 1987 National.
When I told her what had happened she promptly asked for her pound back!


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 9, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> sounds like a Horse called Brexit







__





						Brexit | Race Record & Form | Racing Post
					

Brexit statistics and form. View results and future entries as well as statistics by course, race type and prize money.




					www.racingpost.com


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 9, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


i see brexit has done significantly better than bimble


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 9, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Inspired by bimble posts on here I decided to back a horse called Bimble today . Safe to say that this is the last time I spend any money on Bimble .



bimble at least winning this year 

last one for brexit was before the end of the transition period


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 9, 2021)

.


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 9, 2021)

hmm


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 9, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> hmm


shakes fist at farriers


----------



## Artaxerxes (Oct 9, 2021)

Badgers said:


> View attachment 291975



If the bus had that on it almost 100% of Urban would have voted Leave - and then been bitterly disappointed.


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 9, 2021)

quite sure most of us on here would have know Boris and Gove would not of gone through with the sentament

not as we intended anyways


----------



## Cloo (Oct 9, 2021)

Following the 'true meaning of Christmas' stuff, prepare for the next manufactured culture war to be 'Anyone who complains about shortages and post-Brexit problems is just a spoiled snowflake who's had it too good for too long and isn't a True Brit.'


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 9, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> quite sure most of us on here would have know Boris and Gove would not of gone through with the sentament
> 
> not as we intended anyways


Either Boris and Michael or Johnson or Gove or twattydum and twattydee but not Boris and gove


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Oct 9, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Either Boris and Michael or Johnson or Gove or twattydum and twattydee but not Boris and gove



or 'that cunt johnson and that cunt gove'

(illustrating why 'that cunt' is not adequate, as it's not clear which cunt you are calling a cunt)


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 9, 2021)

Puddy_Tat said:


> or 'that cunt johnson and that cunt gove'
> 
> (illustrating why 'that cunt' is not adequate, as it's not clear which cunt you are calling a cunt)


Or penguin breakfast and penguin lunch


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 9, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Either Boris and Michael or Johnson or Gove or twattydum and twattydee but not Boris and gove



how about not  just the idea that elements of the tory party pushed for about 30 years, is rees on my side time to think again


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 9, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> how about not  just the idea that elements of the tory party pushed for about 30 years, is ress on my side time to think again


Ress is on your side


----------



## hash tag (Oct 9, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Or penguin breakfast and penguin lunch


You have penguins for breakfast and lunch?


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 9, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Ress is on your side


 Mogg aye i forgot his moved his hedgefull to dublin for no reason whatsoever...


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 9, 2021)

hash tag said:


> You have penguins for breakfast and lunch?


I do. They come round and I chuck them a Tory student or councillor


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 9, 2021)

godless socialist


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 9, 2021)

Do penguins smell of Tories?


----------



## Raheem (Oct 9, 2021)

I don't think the penguins will care which cunt is which.


----------



## hash tag (Oct 9, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Do penguins smell of Tories?


Yes. Penguins are very fishy


----------



## Yossarian (Oct 9, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> i see brexit has done significantly better than bimble



That one's a French horse - the British Brexit has a dismal record.





__





						Brexit | Race Record & Form | Racing Post
					

Brexit statistics and form. View results and future entries as well as statistics by course, race type and prize money.




					www.racingpost.com
				




You'd have done well betting on May Remain:





__





						May Remain | Race Record & Form | Racing Post
					

May Remain statistics and form. View results and future entries as well as statistics by course, race type and prize money.




					www.racingpost.com


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 9, 2021)

Raheem said:


> I don't think the penguins will care which cunt is which.


Not once they're turned into pengo anyway


----------



## bluescreen (Oct 9, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Not once they're turned into pengo anyway


Then penguano


----------



## krtek a houby (Oct 9, 2021)

_Russ_ said:


> Twat Bobbin...I like it.
> I thought Id make a proper  homophobic comment just for Pickman's model as he was so desperately desperately trying to find one elsewhere...bless





krtek a houby said:


> You're ok with us getting the 6 counties back, though, surely?





krtek a houby said:


> _An occasional arse bandit Republican writes:_
> 
> Any chance on replying to the question about you being ok or not with returning the 6 counties to us?



So, you're doubling down on the homophobic comment, ok, got that.

Any reply to the above question?


----------



## TopCat (Oct 9, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> So, you're doubling down on the homophobic comment, ok, got that.
> 
> Any reply to the above question?


Its shit isn't it?


----------



## two sheds (Oct 9, 2021)

EU's sausage olive branch may be rejected 









						Trade war looms as UK set to spurn EU offer on Northern Ireland
					

EU leaders urged to push back against No 10’s brinkmanship over role of European court of justice




					www.theguardian.com
				






> Fears that the UK is heading for a trade war with the EU have been fuelled by strong indications from the government that proposals to be unveiled in Brussels on Wednesday over Brexit arrangements do not go far enough.
> 
> The Brexit minister, Lord Frost, will use a speech in Portugal on Tuesday to say that scrapping its prohibition on British sausages to resolve the dispute over the Northern Ireland protocol do not meet the UK and unionists demands.
> 
> The peer will call for “significant” changes to the post-Brexit agreement he negotiated, including over the role of the European court of justice, something the EU is highly unlikely to concede to.


----------



## krtek a houby (Oct 10, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Its shit isn't it?



Law of diminishing returns, aye


----------



## Badgers (Oct 10, 2021)




----------



## ska invita (Oct 10, 2021)

Badgers said:


>



we all saw this coming ...Johnson had no intention of honouring the deal.
Frost has been stringing the eu along and now the eu are sure of it, all about how big the punishment is thats coming to the UK


----------



## Badgers (Oct 10, 2021)

ska invita said:


> we all saw this coming ...Johnson had no intention of honouring the deal.
> Frost has been stringing the eu along and now the eu are sure of it, all about how big the punishment is thats coming to the UK


The 'Oven ready' deal was surely part of the GE? Time for another one?


----------



## ska invita (Oct 10, 2021)

Badgers said:


> The 'Oven ready' deal was surely part of the GE? Time for another one?


Stoking fights with the EU is part of the election strategy too... the question is is it a dangerous one - that depends how the EU respond


----------



## Badgers (Oct 10, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Stoking fights with the EU is part of the election strategy too... the question is is it a dangerous one - that depends how the EU respond


----------



## two sheds (Oct 10, 2021)

I predict they'll cut off our sausages again


----------



## Dogsauce (Oct 10, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Stoking fights with the EU is part of the election strategy too... the question is is it a dangerous one - that depends how the EU respond


Given the U.K. is dependent on electricity coming in via interconnectors from the EU, it’s probably not the wisest fight to pick during an energy crisis.


----------



## Badgers (Oct 10, 2021)

Boris Johnson plans to hold another winter election in hope of repeating 2019 success
					

PM thinks winter campaign could throw the opposition off-balance




					www.independent.co.uk


----------



## ska invita (Oct 10, 2021)

Dogsauce said:


> Given the U.K. is dependent on electricity coming in via interconnectors from the EU, it’s probably not the wisest fight to pick during an energy crisis.


if it was all out war the UK would be fucked... but whatever the EU do (tarrifs?) could cause an escalation in tit for tats


----------



## ska invita (Oct 10, 2021)

old post



ska invita said:


> exactly to Tory plan then - ignore the border, scrap the protocol, force the EU's hand, the EUs only choice is to go down the court>sanction route.
> tories get to blame the EU, the question becomes what the sanctions will be, and how that might escalate.
> ....this all gets ramped up in the future when the UK diverges on standards.
> 
> Have to hand it to the Tories though, they've managed to find a way to resolve the impossibility of their situation by driving a bulldozer through legal obligations. I guess the signs were always there....


----------



## klang (Oct 10, 2021)

ska invita said:


> all out war


----------



## ska invita (Oct 10, 2021)

klang said:


> View attachment 292076


im less keen tbh


----------



## Artaxerxes (Oct 10, 2021)

two sheds said:


> EU's sausage olive branch may be rejected
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Oven ready


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 10, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Oven ready


Hope it's a gas oven and Johnson's sticking his head in it


----------



## Artaxerxes (Oct 10, 2021)

Badgers said:


> View attachment 292075



We've got one carrier with few planes, some destroyers that keep blacking out and not enough crew for the entire navy.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 10, 2021)

ska invita said:


> im less keen tbh


Yeh that'll make all the difference


Dogsauce said:


> Given the U.K. is dependent on electricity coming in via interconnectors from the EU, it’s probably not the wisest fight to pick during an energy crisis.


No one has ever accused Johnson of wisdom


----------



## andysays (Oct 10, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Hope it's a gas oven and Johnson's sticking his head in it


Unfortunately we're all likely to run out of gas at the very moment he gets around to it.

(and, of course, the old thing about sticking your head in a gas oven was far more effective when it was was coal gas rather than that new-fangled "natural" stuff we've been using for nearly 50 years now...)


----------



## philosophical (Oct 10, 2021)

A lot of brexiteers said they need us more than we need them, so those brexiteers are perfectly at ease if energy does not come into the UK from the Republic of Ireland, France or any other EU country.
It would hurt us all if those supplies are cut off, but maybe well worth it to suffer if Brexit voters suffer too. Possibly only practical reality will make Brexit voters realise the damage they have done and continue to do, and then maybe the tide might turn.


----------



## Badgers (Oct 10, 2021)

philosophical said:


> A lot of brexiteers said they need us more than we need them, so those brexiteers are perfectly at ease if energy does not come into the UK from the Republic of Ireland, France or any other EU country.
> It would hurt us all if those supplies are cut off, but maybe we’ll worth it to suffer if Brexit voters suffer too. Possibly only practical reality will make Brexit voters realise the damage they have done and continue to do, and then maybe the tide might turn.


Nah. They will blame the EU and accuse remain voters of using too much energy.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Oct 10, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Nah. They will blame the EU and accuse remain voters of using too much energy.



Why Tea vs Latte is the Patriotic Choice for your energy needs


----------



## brogdale (Oct 10, 2021)

Dogsauce said:


> Given the U.K. is dependent on electricity coming in via interconnectors from the EU, it’s probably not the wisest fight to pick during an energy crisis.


But our blackouts will now be (patriotic) blue.


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 10, 2021)

are things that bad now they thinking of pulling the trigger for a basically a no deal brexit

and telling people the FREEdom is worth the shortages


odd sort of damage control


----------



## Badgers (Oct 10, 2021)

How is Sterling £ doing at the moment? 

Been a bit of unrest already. 





__





						UK’s September turmoil sparks flight from UK equity funds as outflows hit second-worst month on record
					

Funds focused on UK equities suffered heavy selling from investors spooked by the multiple crises afflicting the UK in September, according to the latest Fund Flow Index from Calastone.




					www.institutionalassetmanager.co.uk


----------



## Badgers (Oct 10, 2021)

Marr: How many HGV-driver took up your offer of temporary visa???

KK: not many. 27

Marr: What happens now?

KK: It’s a global issue….blablabla

Marr: What happens now?

KK: We’re training our own


----------



## krtek a houby (Oct 10, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Ress is on your side


Is _Russ_  though?


----------



## Badgers (Oct 10, 2021)




----------



## Badgers (Oct 10, 2021)




----------



## Badgers (Oct 10, 2021)




----------



## Badgers (Oct 10, 2021)

Good timing then? Coincidence? 

Anyway, Pffft to the beastly EU and their 'human rights clauses'


----------



## Badgers (Oct 10, 2021)

The EU will lose its war with Poland and prove we were right to leave
					

Poland has quietly been building one of the most successful economies in the world and Brussels will not be able to push it around




					www.telegraph.co.uk
				




"The EU will lose its war with Poland and prove we were right to leave," says a Telegraph columnist.

But, embarrassingly, he gets the name of the Polish PM _completely_ wrong, names the wrong court, and makes typos throughout.


----------



## Badgers (Oct 10, 2021)

> Many industry players report IBAN discrimination being a major issue as a number of companies across Europe began to refuse Euro account bank details “if they contained the country code ‘GB’,” Marwick said.
> 
> As a result of Brexit, sending a payment to Eurozone countries resulted in additional charges. Whilst the fee is nominal, it means that payments can be short of the required full amount being sent.











						Brexit exclusive: UK firms face IBAN discrimination across EU as GB payments are refused
					

Brexit has made everything more challenging, said Will Marwick, since February of this year the CEO of IFX Payments in Baker Street.




					www.cityam.com


----------



## Artaxerxes (Oct 10, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Good timing then? Coincidence?
> 
> Anyway, Pffft to the beastly EU and their 'human rights clauses'




Turning a blind eye to countries without human rights is a fine tradition, long held on these isles


----------



## Ming (Oct 11, 2021)

Love a bit of the old Self (Will) myself. From 2016 after the result. Quite funny.


----------



## Ming (Oct 11, 2021)

I remember around the Brexit thing (after the vote ) there was some legal hurdle the Brexiteers had to get over. And they  did. And JRM had a champagne party afterwards. That’s when I realized it was all about money.
I remember what the EU did to Greece after 2008. But…Greece cooked the books to get in (with Goldman‘s help). I understand it’s a neoliberal capitalist organization and why some people on the left aren’t into it for that reason. But for me it‘s a lesser of two evils. Also the world is now globalised so you’d expect power blocks.


----------



## Badgers (Oct 11, 2021)

Heseltine today:

“Just take the phrase, take back control. That’s what we were told brexit would do.Can you show me any area where you think this government has actually achieved a greater degree of control? It is lurching from crisis to crisis.And it’s patently not in control.”


----------



## two sheds (Oct 11, 2021)

Ming said:


> Love a bit of the old Self (Will) myself. From 2016 after the result. Quite funny.




Well we all in the UK have certainly come together over the last couple of years to make Brexit work.


----------



## ska invita (Oct 11, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Heseltine today:
> 
> “Can you show me any area where you think this government has actually achieved a greater degree of control? .”



Points based immigration policy is the biggest one so far.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Oct 11, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Top 5 Brexit benefits (to date):
> 
> 1. Freedom from the rotting neo-liberal EU economic project, the common features of which  are secretiveness, democratic unaccountability, punishment beatings for poor countries and racist border controls across ‘Fortress Europe’.
> 2. Shifting the balance of labour market forces towards workers and unions and fatally undermining the use of exploitative free movement of labour.
> ...


----------



## gosub (Oct 11, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Good timing then? Coincidence?
> 
> Anyway, Pffft to the beastly EU and their 'human rights clauses'



TBF to Newcastle fans, I think they are just glad to see the back of Mike Ashley


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 11, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Heseltine today:
> 
> “Just take the phrase, take back control. That’s what we were told brexit would do.Can you show me any area where you think this government has actually achieved a greater degree of control? It is lurching from crisis to crisis.And it’s patently not in control.”


Ah Heseltine , remember when Frickley Miners dumped that large load of coal blocking the driveway to his country estate at the beginning of the strike ?


----------



## gosub (Oct 11, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Well we all in the UK have certainly come together over the last couple of years to make Brexit work.




Don't think Dreda Say Mitchell was gloatingly triumphal about Leaves ' win either.  As to Cameron and his referendum and why,.   He wasn't the first PM to acknowledge that the EU and its ever moving goalpost needed a referendum.  If the government hadn't have lost THAT referendum if would have lost one that would have been required on the next round of treaty change, thus blocking treaty change.


----------



## philosophical (Oct 11, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Points based immigration policy is the biggest one so far.



How so if anybody can walk completely unchecked overland from the EU into the UK?


----------



## kebabking (Oct 11, 2021)

philosophical said:


> How so if anybody can walk completely unchecked overland from the EU into the UK?



Can they rent or buy accommodation?

Can they get a job?

Can they get social security?

Can they travel from NI into GB?

I'm sure there _are_ people who's life's dream is to walk into NI, and to live, work and die in NI's black economy, but I'm not sure there's enough of them to get excited about....


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 11, 2021)

kebabking said:


> Can they rent or buy accommodation?
> 
> Can they get a job?
> 
> ...


he doesn't, i see, mention traffic the other way


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## Pickman's model (Oct 11, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Ah Heseltine , remember when Frickley Miners dumped that large load of coal blocking the driveway to his country estate at the beginning of the strike ?


thenford, when the coal came down


----------



## kebabking (Oct 11, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> he doesn't, i see, mention traffic the other way


The EU isn't worried about immigration from the UK mate, we're white...


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## philosophical (Oct 11, 2021)

kebabking said:


> Can they rent or buy accommodation?
> 
> Can they get a job?
> 
> ...


I don’t know the details, I imagine there will be ways, or unofficial ways.
Interesting that you mention travelling from Northern Ireland into Great Britain, a convenient body of water makes that part of inter UK travel more difficult than the inter UK travel between Essex and Suffolk for example. Discriminatory, but has some practical convenience.
Even one is enough to get excited about, or do you have a notion regarding when numbers become serious enough to get excited about?
You might be wanting to use the Priti Patel assessment when she contemplates desperate migrants trying to cross the channel from the EU into the UK, where it seems to me one is one too many for her.
It was referenced earlier that anybody can walk across the land border in Ireland from the UK to the EU unchecked, which is also true, and given the surge of applications for Irish passports from within the UK that kind of desire might even be some kind of problem.
The overall issue is the Emperors New Clothes delusion, oft repeated, that Brexit has happened, or that the UK controls it’s borders.


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## kebabking (Oct 11, 2021)

philosophical said:


> Even one is enough to get excited about, or do you have a notion regarding when numbers become serious enough to get excited about?



A few thousand a year for a couple of years. Other than that...


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## kebabking (Oct 11, 2021)

philosophical said:


> ...that Brexit has happened, or that the UK controls it’s borders.


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## philosophical (Oct 11, 2021)

Why add icing sugar to treacle?
Isn’t treacle sweet enough?


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## Pickman's model (Oct 11, 2021)

kebabking said:


> View attachment 292338


he's enough to drive you to that


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## philosophical (Oct 11, 2021)

Stalker alert!


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## The39thStep (Oct 11, 2021)

Just got back from Faro Airport where Border Control simply directed passengers on the UK flights to use both EU and Non EU lanes . The only small difference is that holidaymakers got their passports stamped ( no doubt due to the 90/180 day rules) but as I have a residencia I don't get a stamp. No customs check on the bacon, corned beef, cheese, pork pies, and black pudding that I had in my bag either.


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## Smokeandsteam (Oct 12, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> No customs check on the bacon, corned beef, cheese, pork pies, and black pudding that I had in my bag either.



All the essential bases covered


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## DaphneM (Oct 12, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> All the essential bases covered


the five main food groups


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## Spymaster (Oct 12, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Just got back from Faro Airport where Border Control simply directed passengers on the UK flights to use both EU and Non EU lanes . The only small difference is that holidaymakers got their passports stamped ( no doubt due to the 90/180 day rules) but as I have a residencia I don't get a stamp. No customs check on the bacon, corned beef, cheese, pork pies, and black pudding that I had in my bag either.



This is likely to be the future reality isn’t it. Nobody really wants customs queues in their airports so Brits will just get waved through once everyone’s settled down a bit. Every now and then the UKG will piss someone off (probably the French) and there’ll be a retaliatory go-slow, but otherwise pretty much business as usual.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 12, 2021)

The philosophical one yet again fails to acknowledge that checks are carried out between the Schengen Zone and Eire, so when he talks out people being able to walk from the EU to the UK he means Eire to the UK only, not the greater EU, but the disingenuous snotrag yet again is trying to muddy things in order to claim stuff that ain't so.


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## philosophical (Oct 12, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> The philosophical one yet again fails to acknowledge that checks are carried out between the Schengen Zone and Eire, so when he talks out people being able to walk from the EU to the UK he means Eire to the UK only, not the greater EU, but the disingenuous snotrag yet again is trying to muddy things in order to claim stuff that ain't so.



Romania is not for example a Schengen country. There is freedom of movement in the EU. The Republic of Ireland is in the EU as is Romania.
A Romanian can walk unchecked into the UK across the land border in Ireland.


----------



## andysays (Oct 12, 2021)

.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 12, 2021)

philosophical said:


> Romania is not for example a Schengen country. There is freedom of movement in the EU. The Republic of Ireland is in the EU as is Romania.
> A Romanian can walk unchecked into the UK across the land border in Ireland.



Eire is not in Schengen so checks are carried out on the border, which also happens to be the border of the Common Travel Area. The Romanian or any other EU citizen can be denied entry to Eire should the Irish state so decide. Further just cos the EU citizen has made it to Eire doesn't give them the legal right to enter the UK, so sure they can walk in but face arrest and deportation.


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## bimble (Oct 12, 2021)

Thanks for betting on me The39thStep, a weird kind of flattery but I’ll take it.


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## bimble (Oct 12, 2021)

Have decided I need to move to Italy, Which is the most remoaner thing in the world to do so I expect this thread to be very supportive.


----------



## philosophical (Oct 12, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Eire is not in Schengen so checks are carried out on the border, which also happens to be the border of the Common Travel Area. The Romanian or any other EU citizen can be denied entry to Eire should the Irish state so decide. Further just cos the EU citizen has made it to Eire doesn't give them the legal right to enter the UK, so sure they can walk in but face arrest and deportation.


Your last part is unarguable. People can walk in to the UK, but face the risk of arrest and deportation, not dissimilar to the prospects of desperate people in boats in the channel.
However I don’t believe the UK has outsourced it’s border control to the Republic of Ireland.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 12, 2021)

bimble said:


> Have decided I need to move to Italy, Which is the most remoaner thing in the world to do so I expect this thread to be very supportive.


you're moving to tuscany?


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## bimble (Oct 12, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> you're moving to tuscany?


No.


----------



## gosub (Oct 12, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Just got back from Faro Airport where Border Control simply directed passengers on the UK flights to use both EU and Non EU lanes . The only small difference is that holidaymakers got their passports stamped ( no doubt due to the 90/180 day rules) but as I have a residencia I don't get a stamp. No customs check on the bacon, corned beef, cheese, pork pies, and black pudding that I had in my bag either.


 The UK is middle of a pork based logjam and you're smuggling bacon and pork pies out of the country. If anyone asks me this Xmas why we can't have nice things, I shall point them in your direction.


----------



## philosophical (Oct 12, 2021)

This is Lord Frost's speech in Lisbon.
Watch it in full if you like, but I especially suggest you watch from 39.39.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 12, 2021)

Frost really is a cunts' cunt.


----------



## Badgers (Oct 12, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Frost really is a cunts' cunt.


More from the Brexit Broadcasting Cunteration









						Frost proposes new NI protocol in Brexit row - BBC News
					

The UK's Brexit minister says the existing protocol cannot survive and warns the UK could still trigger Article 16.




					www-bbc-co-uk.cdn.ampproject.org


----------



## Mezzer (Oct 12, 2021)

Badgers said:


> More from the Brexit Broadcasting Cunteration
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I tend to view the BBC as largely questioning Brexit, rather than supporting it.  How does their headline differ substantially from The Guardian for instance? 









						Lord Frost: failure to rip up NI protocol would be ‘historic misjudgment’
					

Brexit minister questioned why the EU would not want to accommodate the unionist concerns




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## ska invita (Oct 12, 2021)

philosophical said:


> This is Lord Frost's speech in Lisbon.
> Watch it in full if you like, but I especially suggest you watch from 39.39.



translated from diplomateese, and from the horses smirking mouth: they signed it knowing they wouldnt implement it


----------



## two sheds (Oct 12, 2021)

ska invita said:


> translated from diplomateese, and from the horses smirking mouth: they signed it in good faith knowing they wouldnt implement it



cfu I was hoping to italicize the change but all the formatting codes above my post have been greyed out


----------



## Raheem (Oct 12, 2021)

ska invita said:


> translated from diplomateese, and from the horses smirking mouth: they signed it knowing they wouldnt implement it


Knowing they didn't want to, at least. I really doubt they had a plan so clear as for them to know what they were and weren't going to do about it.


----------



## ska invita (Oct 12, 2021)

Raheem said:


> Knowing they didn't want to, at least. I really doubt they had a plan so clear as for them to know what they were and weren't going to do about it.


Johnsons off the record (sort of) comments to the NI faithful suggest otherwise: throw the paperwork in the bin, have your cake and eat it, not building/employing any border infrastructure, "‘no forms, no checks, no barriers of any kind" etc <said days before signing


----------



## Badgers (Oct 12, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Johnsons off the record (sort of) comments to the NI faithful suggest otherwise: throw the paperwork in the bin, have your cake and eat it, not building/employing any border infrastructure, "‘no forms, no checks, no barriers of any kind" etc <said days before signing


This one?


----------



## Badgers (Oct 12, 2021)




----------



## Ax^ (Oct 12, 2021)

you got to look at Europe atm looking at the united kingdom whittering on about the Ni Protocol

and then looking  at the Good Friday Agreement


and thinking fuck you frost and Johnson , you break it


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 12, 2021)

bimble said:


> No.


Rome?


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 12, 2021)

bimble said:


> Have decided I need to move to Italy, Which is the most remoaner thing in the world to do so I expect this thread to be very supportive.



italy is nice place

but corrupt as buggery and don't mess with the cops


----------



## bimble (Oct 12, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Rome?


not sure. probably naples. step one is learn the language though.


----------



## Raheem (Oct 12, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Johnsons off the record (sort of) comments to the NI faithful suggest otherwise: throw the paperwork in the bin, have your cake and eat it, not building/employing any border infrastructure, "‘no forms, no checks, no barriers of any kind" etc <said days before signing


Nah, that's just evidence that Johnson is happy to just tell an audience whatever it is it wants to hear.

I think the government has gone into this not really knowing how it would resolve itself and they are not really guided by objectives so much as just not taking responsibility. 

It's difficult to know what will happen, but just not implementing the protocol (as opposed to talking tough and dragging your feet) still seems unlikely to me. The UK can't win a trade war with the EU. That's not to say there can't be one, obvs.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 12, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> of course north ireland that can label its produce as british pork need to import english pork
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Norn pork tastes smokier, due to the thick pall of smoke that hangs over the 6 counties from April to August every yr.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 12, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> View attachment 291954
> 
> Victory in FEB day


Fucking mini-bangers!!!


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 12, 2021)

ViolentPanda said:


> Norn pork tastes smokier, due to the thick pall of smoke that hangs over the 6 counties from April to August every yr.



not sure myself sister lives in antrim 

but extended family is from dublin 

you ask the southern family to smuggle over sausages and that was before brexit 


never had 2 packs of denny's sausages  in my suitcase flying home 
have had superquinns/value


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 12, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> not sure myself sister lives in antrim
> 
> but extended family is from dublin
> 
> ...


You'll be smuggling taytos and club orange too


----------



## ska invita (Oct 12, 2021)

Raheem said:


> Nah, that's just evidence that Johnson is happy to just tell an audience whatever it is it wants to hear.


well we cant know for certain, but I disagree - I dont believe they ever planned to honour it, and it was necessary to sign something to get Brexit over the line (its what Frost as good as said today).


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 12, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> You'll be smuggling taytos and club orange too



not really smuggling but i've never wasted baggage allowance for food stuffs from the north


and tayto get to hell


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 12, 2021)

bimble said:


> . step one is learn the language though.




I can help you with that. It’s Italian.


----------



## Yossarian (Oct 12, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Just got back from Faro Airport where Border Control simply directed passengers on the UK flights to use both EU and Non EU lanes . The only small difference is that holidaymakers got their passports stamped ( no doubt due to the 90/180 day rules) but as I have a residencia I don't get a stamp. No customs check on the bacon, corned beef, cheese, pork pies, and black pudding that I had in my bag either.



That "freedom of movement for you and your pork pies" deal seems to be working out pretty well.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Oct 12, 2021)

Looks like Brexit has now hit France:



			https://www.ouest-france.fr/economie/entreprises/crise-du-coronavirus/materiaux-electronique-nourriture-les-4-principales-penuries-en-france-au-mois-de-septembre-59c918fa-116b-11ec-b41b-5a71844b338c?utm_source=Microsoft-News-general&amp;utm_medium=fluxrss&amp;utm_campaign=banquedecontenu


----------



## two sheds (Oct 12, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Looks like Brexit has now hit France:
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.ouest-france.fr/economie/entreprises/crise-du-coronavirus/materiaux-electronique-nourriture-les-4-principales-penuries-en-france-au-mois-de-septembre-59c918fa-116b-11ec-b41b-5a71844b338c?utm_source=Microsoft-News-general&amp;utm_medium=fluxrss&amp;utm_campaign=banquedecontenu


I think you'll find that's covid


----------



## Yossarian (Oct 13, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Looks like Brexit has now hit France:
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.ouest-france.fr/economie/entreprises/crise-du-coronavirus/materiaux-electronique-nourriture-les-4-principales-penuries-en-france-au-mois-de-septembre-59c918fa-116b-11ec-b41b-5a71844b338c?utm_source=Microsoft-News-general&amp;utm_medium=fluxrss&amp;utm_campaign=banquedecontenu



I bet they wish they'd Frexited so they could go on strike and get pay rises too.


----------



## kebabking (Oct 13, 2021)

bimble said:


> not sure. probably naples. step one is learn the language though.


Naples itself is an absolute shithole. Lots of lovely places to live and work in Italy, but Naples isn't one of them.


----------



## bimble (Oct 13, 2021)

kebabking said:


> Naples itself is an absolute shithole. Lots of lovely places to live and work in Italy, but Naples isn't one of them.


i like it. the whole 'triangle of death' toxic waste thing is a bit concerning tho admittedly.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 13, 2021)

kebabking said:


> Naples itself is an absolute shithole. Lots of lovely places to live and work in Italy, but Naples isn't one of them.




You could always try staying just outside Naples like one rubbish travel agent did, tbf there was a nice hotel in Castel Volturno, but the town itself left a little to be desired, unless you wanted to pick up a working girl on the slip road or enjoyed the bristle of violence, then this happened…. Castel Volturno massacre - Wikipedia to no one’s massive surprise…


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 13, 2021)

kebabking said:


> Naples itself is an absolute shithole. Lots of lovely places to live and work in Italy, but Naples isn't one of them.


Good pizzas apparently - see Naples and diet


----------



## bimble (Oct 13, 2021)

It's a great city, naples, i love it there. The toxic waste issue is the only real problem with my brilliant plan.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 13, 2021)

bimble said:


> It's a great city, naples, i love it there. The toxic waste issue is the only real problem with my brilliant plan.




The potential of being incinerated by a pyroclastic flow also adds to the fun…


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 13, 2021)

bimble said:


> It's a great city, naples, i love it there.


 What do you like about it? Have you been elsewhere in Italy?


----------



## bimble (Oct 13, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> What do you like about it? Have you been elsewhere in Italy?


Its got the beauty and ancientness of the other famous cities but its all crumbling and falling to bits and covered in graffiti and i like that. Also, its by the sea and has a massive open air book market and the world's best pizzas for aproximately four euros. But, this is the arguing about brexit thread.


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 13, 2021)

bimble said:


> Its got the beauty and ancientness of the other famous cities but its all crumbling and falling to bits and covered in graffiti and i like that. Also, its by the sea and has a massive open air book market and the world's best pizzas for aproximately four euros. But, this is the arguing about brexit thread.


Whatever floats your boat, I guess. Just seems like someone coming to the UK and insisting that they want to live in Bracknell.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Oct 13, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> I bet they wish they'd Frexited so they could go on strike and get pay rises too.



Striking and pay rises isn’t the sort of stuff you approve of clearly….


----------



## Serge Forward (Oct 13, 2021)

They do good pizzas in Bracknell?


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Oct 13, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Whatever floats your boat, I guess. Just seems like someone coming to the UK and insisting that they want to live in Bracknell.


Must admit I never knew Bracknell was the Naples of Britain. Although to be fair some people in Birmingham claim our city resembles Venice due to the canals..


----------



## Yossarian (Oct 13, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Striking and pay rises isn’t the sort of stuff you approve of clearly….



I have long envied the French approach to labor relations. And monarchies.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 13, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Must admit I never knew Bracknell was the Naples of Britain.



It could do with a very violent volcano on its doorstep.


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 13, 2021)

Serge Forward said:


> They do good pizzas in Bracknell?



I was thinking more about the graffiti but the Pizza Hut in Princess Square used to be pretty good. The town is also blessed with not one but two municipal waste facilities which is remarkable for a commune of its size. bimble might want to check it out!


----------



## Yossarian (Oct 13, 2021)

I don't know how people can even tell Bracknell and Naples apart.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Oct 13, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> I don't know how people can even tell Bracknell and Naples apart.
> 
> View attachment 292540


Is that Bracknell? Looks okay to me


----------



## Chilli.s (Oct 13, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Is that Bracknell? Looks okay to me


Blue sky thinking!


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 13, 2021)

Serge Forward said:


> They do good pizzas in Bracknell?



heard from a source they are better in Woking


----------



## ska invita (Oct 13, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Is that Bracknell? Looks okay to me


No Yoss was making a joke - that's Staines


----------



## brogdale (Oct 13, 2021)

One jarring aspect of some threads is the regularity and ease with which some folk refer to other people's home towns as shitholes.


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 13, 2021)

withstanding that Staines is a shitehole 

even before the renamed it stain on the thames


----------



## andysays (Oct 13, 2021)

Serge Forward said:


> They do good pizzas in Bracknell?


Not a patch on Pizza Express in Woking, or so I hear...

...from Ax^ who got there first


----------



## kebabking (Oct 13, 2021)

brogdale said:


> One jarring aspect of some threads is the regularity and ease with which some folk refer to other people's home towns as shitholes.



One of the jarring aspects of my life is that despite humanities utter brilliance - cooked food, space travel, medicine - so many people's homes _are_ shitholes....

(I see what your saying, and despite being a serial offender I agree with you - but Naples is, particularly when contrasted with what it could/should be, a shithole)


----------



## gosub (Oct 13, 2021)

brogdale said:


> One jarring aspect of some threads is the regularity and ease with which some folk refer to other people's home towns as shitholes.


Except when somebody came up with a best selling book called crap towns they had to do a sequel due to the number of complaints that their town had been omitted


----------



## gosub (Oct 13, 2021)

andysays said:


> Not a patch on Pizza Express in Woking, or so I hear...
> 
> ...from Ax^ who got there first


I thought the Duke of York got there first


----------



## bimble (Oct 13, 2021)

Found myself driving though Staines not long ago, i'd previously thought that people were probably just going on about it because of its unfortunate name but no, that does seem genuinely to be an shithole. 
tripadvisor recommends this though. 








						LINO STATUE (Staines) - All You Need to Know BEFORE You Go
					






					www.tripadvisor.co.uk


----------



## brogdale (Oct 13, 2021)

Come on people, we're not all fortunate enough to live in bucolic splendour.


----------



## bimble (Oct 13, 2021)

Do you think that residents of Staines feel that it is not a shithole? i dont know.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 13, 2021)

bimble said:


> Do you think that residents of Staines feel that it is not a shithole? i dont know.


Really?

I'm sure there are all varieties of opinion from residents in all settlements, but (i dunno, maybe this is just me?) but it jars when folk that are otherwise sound in their politics decide that it's OK to cast other people's home towns as shitholes. If the residents themselves think that based on their lived experience, then fine...but to pronounce on less favoured areas from your perfect village looks a bit shit from where I'm standing; (Croydon).


----------



## bimble (Oct 13, 2021)

Yeah, i do get that brogdale. At the same time though i think it should be ok to talk about how come some places are crap, because the crapnesses, the problems, of Naples or Staines or Malawi or the UK say, its not the same as saying 'i look down upon your choice of trousers and laugh' its structural crapness & created by historical stuff and the decisions of powerful people, so its not like its the fault of people who live there.


----------



## Elpenor (Oct 13, 2021)

I worked with plenty of people from Staines and Woking and yes even Bracknell when I was working in Chertsey. They all seemed ok tbh and didn’t regard where they were from as a shithole. The people from Hounslow did though.

I never took to Chertsey as a place but it had lots of interesting characters.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 13, 2021)

bimble said:


> Yeah, i do get that brogdale. At the same time though i think it should be ok to talk about how come some places are crap, because the crapnesses, the problems, of Naples or Staines or Malawi or the UK say, its not the same as saying 'i look down upon your choice of trousers and laugh' its structural crapness & created by historical stuff and the decisions of powerful people, so its not like its the fault of people who live there.


Yeah, some places are more economically depressed, socially deprived, poor, culturally deprived, remote, inaccessible, environmentally damaged, inappropriately redeveloped etc. etc. but that doesn't mean that it helps for folk living in 'nice' areas to call them shitholes.


----------



## gosub (Oct 13, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Yeah, some places are more economically depressed, socially deprived, poor, culturally deprived, remote, inaccessible, environmentally damaged, inappropriately redeveloped etc. etc. but that doesn't mean that it helps for folk living in 'nice' areas to call them shitholes.


Lived in economically depressed and socially deprived areas that were less shitty than 'nice' areas. All depends on the people


----------



## bimble (Oct 13, 2021)

am reminded of donald trump calling a bunch of countries Shitholes, which did kind of spoil the word.


----------



## ska invita (Oct 13, 2021)

Raheem said:


> Nah, that's just evidence that Johnson is happy to just tell an audience whatever it is it wants to hear.
> 
> I think the government has gone into this not really knowing how it would resolve itself and they are not really guided by objectives so much as just not taking responsibility.
> 
> It's difficult to know what will happen, but just not implementing the protocol (as opposed to talking tough and dragging your feet) still seems unlikely to me. The UK can't win a trade war with the EU. That's not to say there can't be one, obvs.



rings true to me


----------



## bimble (Oct 13, 2021)

Spells it out helpfully here, that of course they never intended to keep to the agreement they negotiated and signed, as the whole point was to Cheat Foreigners.


----------



## ska invita (Oct 13, 2021)

interesting what the EU response is - they surely also reasoned it was in bad faith but sounds like they wanted a compromise (half a border) - will be hard to compromise with this out there. Half a border would never have worked longterm as the UK "deviates" ( drops standards) in the future...


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 13, 2021)

Elpenor said:


> I worked with plenty of people from Staines and Woking and yes even Bracknell when I was working in Chertsey. They all seemed ok tbh and didn’t regard where they were from as a shithole. The people from Hounslow did though.
> 
> I never took to Chertsey as a place but it had lots of interesting characters.



Hounslow not that bad at least they don't lie to themselves about with side of the Thames they live upon


----------



## Raheem (Oct 13, 2021)

ska invita said:


> View attachment 292560
> rings true to me


Yeah, I don't really buy the idea that, if you want the whole truth and nothing but, Cummings is your man.

These people are not geniuses. They signed up to the ni protocol because they had backed themselves into a corner and had no option. They didn't like it and they probably talked to each other in vague terms about how they would get round it at a later date, but I don't believe the idea that they have had some brilliant plan all along.

Now, all that's happening is they've backed themselves into a corner again. But just unilaterally ditching the protocol will be a disastrous move. They may be forced into it, but it cannot possibly be where they had intended to end up.


----------



## ska invita (Oct 13, 2021)

Raheem said:


> Yeah, I don't really buy the idea that, if you want the whole truth and nothing but, Cummings is your man.
> 
> These people are not geniuses. They signed up to the ni protocol because they had backed themselves into a corner and had no option. They didn't like it and they probably talked to each other in vague terms about how they would get round it at a later date, but I don't believe the idea that they have had some brilliant plan all along.
> 
> Now, all that's happening is they've backed themselves into a corner again. But just unilaterally ditching the protocol will be a disastrous move. They may be forced into it, but it cannot possibly be where they had intended to end up.


Well you know I disagree.
The bind is on the EU to enforce it ... They basically can't apart from sanctions.

Let's say there is zero border because UK gov say Shan't the only way the EU can force a border is between Ireland and N I... Which they can't because of GFA. 

UK gov can just say Try And Make Me, which can only lead to sanctions, which can be counteracted with sanctions the other way. Fairly strong position but leaves the UK gov looking like slippery cunts... Of which they are smirkingly proud


----------



## bimble (Oct 13, 2021)

but in a war of sanctions we'd just lose, and even liz truss must know that.


----------



## Chilli.s (Oct 13, 2021)

bimble said:


> even liz truss must know that.


unlikely


----------



## Badgers (Oct 13, 2021)

Farmers are suffering from Brexit - and Boris Johnson won't save their bacon
					

Brexit is causing a pile-up of pigs on farms - with farmers unable to afford to feed them.




					www.theneweuropean.co.uk
				






> While Johnson sizzles in Marbella, there’s no-one to save the bacon of the 4,500 porkers who the National Farmers’ Union say will be shot with bolt guns or given lethal injections before being incinerated this week. That will take the tally of pigs destroyed without entering the food chain to over 5,000, with possibly another 115,000 to come.


----------



## kebabking (Oct 13, 2021)

bimble said:


> but in a war of sanctions we'd just lose, and even liz truss must know that.



Economically, certainly - we only produce around 60% of our food for example - on the other hand it would be almost politically impossible for the UK to continue to provide military support through NATO to countries who were placing economic sanctions upon us. The UK provides more troops to the Enhanced Forward Presence (the NATO formations in the Baltic States and Poland) than any other NATO ally including the US, has a military presence in more NATO countries than any other European state, and is the largest NATO contributer in the Black Sea region.

Sanctions might look like a viable option in Paris and in the Guardian Editors office, but in Estonia they look like a good chance to experience national oblivion.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 13, 2021)




----------



## gosub (Oct 13, 2021)

bimble said:


> but in a war of sanctions we'd just lose, and even liz truss must know that.


But would she mind?  We'd be forced to eat our own cheese


----------



## Yossarian (Oct 13, 2021)

kebabking said:


> Economically, certainly - we only produce around 60% of our food for example - on the other hand it would be almost politically impossible for the UK to continue to provide military support through NATO to countries who were placing economic sanctions upon us. The UK provides more troops to the Enhanced Forward Presence (the NATO formations in the Baltic States and Poland) than any other NATO ally including the US, has a military presence in more NATO countries than any other European state, and is the largest NATO contributer in the Black Sea region.
> 
> Sanctions might look like a viable option in Paris and in the Guardian Editors office, but in Estonia they look like a good chance to experience national oblivion.



If Britain is going to try to use this troop presence to get its way in trade disputes by arguing that its troops are the only thing preventing eastern Europe from a Russian invasion, maybe it's time for a reshuffle to replace the British presence with troops from a more reliable ally.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 13, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> If Britain is going to try to use this troop presence to get its way in trade disputes by arguing that its troops are the only thing preventing eastern Europe from a Russian invasion, maybe it's time for a reshuffle to replace the British presence with troops from a more reliable ally.


or to just stockpile vodka there and hand out bottles to the advancing russian troops


----------



## kebabking (Oct 13, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> If Britain is going to try to use this troop presence to get its way in trade disputes by arguing that its troops are the only thing preventing eastern Europe from a Russian invasion, maybe it's time for a reshuffle to replace the British presence with troops from a more reliable ally.



You can name one?

It's amusing how the interdependence that those on the remain side (which included me) said was impossible to unpick, is, so suddenly, possible to unpick and replace...


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 13, 2021)

you think the russian wanted nato  troops out of the balkin states

_*scratchs chin_


----------



## Yossarian (Oct 13, 2021)

kebabking said:


> You can name one?
> 
> It's amusing how the interdependence that those on the remain side (which included me) said was impossible to unpick, is, so suddenly, possible to unpick and replace...



Britain has a lot on its plate at the minute so it only seems fair for the other 29 countries in NATO to share more of the load - do they all share the view that Britain is the irreplaceable linchpin of Europe's defense?


----------



## Badgers (Oct 13, 2021)




----------



## Raheem (Oct 13, 2021)

kebabking said:


> Economically, certainly - we only produce around 60% of our food for example - on the other hand it would be almost politically impossible for the UK to continue to provide military support through NATO to countries who were placing economic sanctions upon us. The UK provides more troops to the Enhanced Forward Presence (the NATO formations in the Baltic States and Poland) than any other NATO ally including the US, has a military presence in more NATO countries than any other European state, and is the largest NATO contributer in the Black Sea region.
> 
> Sanctions might look like a viable option in Paris and in the Guardian Editors office, but in Estonia they look like a good chance to experience national oblivion.


This is completely delusional. UK troops in NATO forces are mainly a strategic/diplomatic asset to the UK. Threatening to withdraw them would just be threatening self-harm. The troops themselves are replaceable.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 13, 2021)

Raheem said:


> This is completely delusional. UK troops in NATO forces are mainly a strategic/diplomatic asset to the UK. Threatening to withdraw them would just be threatening self-harm. The troops themselves are replaceable.


war is of course the pursuit of diplomacy by other means


----------



## kebabking (Oct 13, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> Britain has a lot on its plate at the minute so it only seems fair for the other 29 countries in NATO to share more of the load - do they all share the view that Britain is the irreplaceable linchpin of Europe's defense?



No one would like them to share more of the load than me - yet the German army is now smaller than the British Army, and it's Air Force barely exists.

If they dip their hands in their pockets they'll reduce their dependency, and it's not the uK stopping them doing so...


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 13, 2021)

kebabking said:


> No one would like them to share more of the load than me - yet the German army is now smaller than the British Army, and it's Air Force barely exists.
> 
> If they dip their hands in their pockets they'll reduce their dependency, and it's not the uK stopping them doing so...


the german air force is comprised of about 27,600 personnel with 465 aircraft; the raf has 33,200 active personnel and 832 operational aircraft


----------



## kebabking (Oct 13, 2021)

Raheem said:


> This is completely delusional. UK troops in NATO forces are mainly a strategic/diplomatic asset to the UK. Threatening to withdraw them would just be threatening self-harm. The troops themselves are rereplaceable



Yes and no - I disagree with your first point, but agree with your second.

I do not think the UK should threaten to remove it's NATO commitments, nor should it tie those commitments to other issues - however I think it would be a difficult sell to say that we will spend our resources defending people who refuse to sell us food.


----------



## kebabking (Oct 13, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> the german air force is comprised of about 27,600 personnel with 465 aircraft; the raf has 33,200 active personnel and 832 operational aircraft



What they have is one thing, what they have that flies with any regularity is something very different....


----------



## bimble (Oct 13, 2021)

kebabking said:


> Yes and no - I disagree with your first point, but agree with your second.
> 
> I do not think the UK should threaten to remove it's NATO commitments, nor should it tie those commitments to other issues - however I think it would be a difficult sell to say that we will spend our resources defending people who refuse to sell us food.


Does this mean essentially that you think the EU would not dare to get into a trade war with us because of how well tooled up we are militarily?


----------



## philosophical (Oct 13, 2021)

Are Richard Tice and Isabel Oakshott shagging?
I wish they were, and at it like bonobo monkeys in order to stay away from the media.


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 13, 2021)

bimble said:


> Does this mean essentially that you think the EU would not dare to get into a trade war with us because of how well tooled up we are militarily?



Pretty sure that's absolutely not what he meant.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 13, 2021)

bimble said:


> Does this mean essentially that you think the EU would not dare to get into a trade war with us because of how well tooled up we are militarily?


have you noticed that every time you start a post with 'does this mean' the answer is always no?


----------



## kebabking (Oct 13, 2021)

bimble said:


> Does this mean essentially that you think the EU would not dare to get into a trade war with us because of how well tooled up we are militarily?



No, I think that some members will be hugely reluctant to go down that path because of how poorly _they_, and those who make grandiose statements about such things, are tooled up.

As ever, 'the EU' is not monolithic - very different views and interests exist with the EU bodies, and the different member states.


----------



## bimble (Oct 13, 2021)

kebabking said:


> No, I think that some members will be hugely reluctant to go down that path because of how poorly _they_, and those who make grandiose statements about such things, are tooled up.
> 
> As ever, 'the EU' is not monolithic - very different views and interests exist with the EU bodies, and the different member states.


Go on, ultimately if the EU as a whole had better resourced militaries then a trade war wound be likely but it hasn’t so it’s not?

Tbh I’ve always been the worst uncoolest kind of remainer, the kind who was worried about actual wars between European countries becoming a thing again.


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 13, 2021)

kebabking said:


> Yes and no - I disagree with your first point, but agree with your second.
> 
> I do not think the UK should threaten to remove it's NATO commitments, nor should it tie those commitments to other issues - however I think it would be a difficult sell to say that we will spend our resources defending people who refuse to sell us food.




and on St Crispens day 


*shakes fist at sky


----------



## kebabking (Oct 13, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> and on St Crispens day
> 
> 
> *shakes fist at sky



Hate the French as you hate the Devil.


----------



## bimble (Oct 13, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Pretty sure that's absolutely not what he meant.


He just said that if they had more tanks and soldiers and stuff, then they'd be all up for a proper trade war against the Uk, which i don't really think is a different fishkettle its the same one.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 13, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> and on St Crispens day
> 
> 
> *shakes fist at sky


Not till the 25th; I should know, I'm from Faversham.


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 13, 2021)

kebabking said:


> Hate the French as you hate the Devil.



but seriously who refusing to sell the uk food

thought it was the sorta of staff that making england let food rot and pigs go on the bonfire at farms


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 13, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Not till the 25th; I should know, I'm from Faversham.


i explain if anyone going to come out with mad little englander nonsense in future

i'm going add a comment of "and on St Crispens Day"

HTH


----------



## bimble (Oct 13, 2021)

Anyway, we successfully declared a trade war on our selves with no outside intervention needed.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 13, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> i explain if anyone going to come out with mad little englander nonsense in future
> 
> i'm going add a comment of "and on St Crispens Day"
> 
> ...


Well...you're getting closer, I suppose?


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 13, 2021)

only 12 days to go


----------



## planetgeli (Oct 13, 2021)

brogdale said:


> I'm from Faversham.



Wonderful place. Stunning. Like Croydon.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 13, 2021)

planetgeli said:


> Wonderful place. Stunning. Like Croydon.


Good people in both, yes.


----------



## kebabking (Oct 13, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> seriously who refusing to sell the uk food
> 
> thought it was the sorta of staff that making england let food rot and pigs go on the bonfire at farms



During the negotiations did the EU not directly threaten that they would be 'unable' to sell us Insulin?

The remainiacs on here were positively pulling the middle out of themselves at the prospect of all those diabetics - northern, old, brexiteers - dieing, and how righteous the EU would be to bring about this great cull - well, if you'll not sell lifesaving medicines, then food is no great stretch....


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 13, 2021)

quite sure then worried about the logistics of shipping it to the united kingdom if a no deal brexit happened
not threaten to stop selling it

different story that was hypeboled with bollocks


----------



## bimble (Oct 13, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> quite sure then worried about the logistics of shipping it to the united kingdom
> not threaten to stop selling it


No no, the evil foreigners and the remainiacs are all desperately hoping that brexit voters starve to death / die of preventable diseases, pay attention.


----------



## kebabking (Oct 13, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> quite sure then worried about the logistics of shipping it to the united kingdom if a no deal brexit happened
> not threaten to stop selling it
> 
> different story that was hypeboled with bollocks



Nah, the logistics is bollocks - there's a train, it was simply a matter of will.


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 13, 2021)

ah ok and damn us remainiacs for not going out and picking cabbages and killing farm animals


all the get in the way of the new found Freedum we have


----------



## kebabking (Oct 13, 2021)

bimble said:


> No no, the evil foreigners and the remainiacs are all desperately hoping that brexit voters starve to death / die of preventable diseases, pay attention.



You've not read the _Grinaud_ in the last 5 years have you?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 13, 2021)

kebabking said:


> Hate the French as you hate the Devil.


the devil has all the best tunes


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 13, 2021)

kebabking said:


> You've not read the _Grinaud_ in the last 5 years have you?


think she's read little but the guardian since the referendum


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 13, 2021)

kebabking said:


> Nah, the logistics is bollocks - there's a train, it was simply a matter of will.



i can tell you its a little bit more complicated than sticking shit on the train


----------



## bimble (Oct 13, 2021)

The Uk should start producing its own insulin really, just in case. And try to have an agricultural sector that still exists in a year or two.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 13, 2021)

planetgeli said:


> Wonderful place. Stunning. Like Croydon.


croydon is stunning. stunning how those buildings got planning permission


----------



## Flavour (Oct 13, 2021)

bimble said:


> not sure. probably naples. step one is learn the language though.



As perhaps the only urbanite living in Italy... I can tell you with some fair degree of certainty: you don't want to live in Naples. You might think you do, but really you don't.

It regularly scores among the very worst places to live in Italy under pretty much any metric. Crime, environmental welfare, inequality, you name it -- Naples is down near the bottom of the list.

If you want somewhere close to the sea with angsty graffiti and cheap pizza I would go to Livorno, or Lecce, or Cagliari.


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 13, 2021)

bimble said:


> The Uk should start producing its own insulin really, just in case. And try to have an agricultural sector that still exists in a year or two.



they do just not that much as needed


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 13, 2021)

Flavour said:


> As perhaps the only urbanite living in Italy... I can tell you with some fair degree of certainty: you don't want to live in Naples. You might think you do, but really you don't.
> 
> It regularly scores among the very worst places to live in Italy under pretty much any metric. Crime, environmental welfare, inequality, you name it -- Naples is down near the bottom of the list.
> 
> If you want somewhere close to the sea with angsty graffiti and cheap pizza I would go to Livorno, or Lecce, or Cagliari.


milan and bologna apparently worse for pickpockets / theft
and i don't want cheap pizza, i want good pizza


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 13, 2021)

has anyone suggested woking yet


----------



## brogdale (Oct 13, 2021)

Wait till GBNews find out that the tories have an MP exclusively for Woking.


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 13, 2021)

Mmm , from tariff wars to "bespoke arrangements” offer


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 13, 2021)

will admit i'm slightly confused here, is this  a dig at  the brexiters or remainers?


----------



## kebabking (Oct 13, 2021)

bimble said:


> The Uk should start producing its own insulin really, just in case. And try to have an agricultural sector that still exists in a year or two.



Countries should, imv, try to become as self-sufficient as they can be without getting all hair shirt about it - a truly globalised system of production is an organism that has very little capability to cope with upsets like pandemics, sustained conflict, even silly stuff like an idiot boat getting stuck in the Suez canal....


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 13, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> will admit i'm slightly confused here, is this  a dig at  the brexiters or remainers?


It’s the reality of negotiations tbh . Most of which are done on the hoof as short term compromises untill there is a more fortuitous opportunity.


----------



## bimble (Oct 13, 2021)

kebabking said:


> Countries should, imv, try to become as self-sufficient as they can be without getting all hair shirt about it - a truly globalised system of production is an organism that has very little capability to cope with upsets like pandemics, sustained conflict, even silly stuff like an idiot boat getting stuck in the Suez canal....



Shame that brexit looks like it’s going to kill off large parts of our food production isn’t it, making us even more dependent on imports than before. Unless we just focus on a few key crops and stop expecting to have all sorts of frivolous things to eat like other countries have.


----------



## two sheds (Oct 13, 2021)

turnips - we should all adopt a diet of turnips


----------



## not a trot (Oct 13, 2021)

two sheds said:


> turnips - we should all adopt a diet of turnips



Fuck that. I still remember the problems they caused Blackadder.


----------



## two sheds (Oct 13, 2021)

Better than a Diet of Worms though.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Oct 13, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> and on St Crispens day
> 
> 
> *shakes fist at sky



Mmm, the patron saint of Crispy Pancakes.


----------



## Serge Forward (Oct 13, 2021)

I thought that was St Stephen... oh wait, he was the patron Saint of pizzas.


----------



## Carvaged (Oct 13, 2021)

bimble said:


> The Uk should start producing its own insulin really, just in case. And try to have an agricultural sector that still exists in a year or two.



I've heard there's money to be made in pig insulin for humans, and a lot of pigs currently up for the chop. Another Brexit win-win if you ask me.


----------



## MrSki (Oct 13, 2021)

It is not St Crispen but St Crispin & his brother St Crispinian who share to same saints day & are the patron saints of cobblers.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 13, 2021)

MrSki said:


> It is not St Crispen but St Crispin & his brother St Crispinian who share to same saints day & are the patron saints of cobblers.


And Indian restaurants


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 13, 2021)

Carvaged said:


> I've heard there's money to be made in pig insulin for humans, and a lot of pigs currently up for the chop. Another Brexit win-win if you ask me.


Yeh not sure how much insulin you'll get out of Cressida Dick


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 13, 2021)

Serge Forward said:


> I thought that was St Stephen... oh wait, he was the patron Saint of pizzas.


And tokers


----------



## Raheem (Oct 13, 2021)

St Crispin is the patron saint of Pringles tubes.


----------



## ska invita (Oct 13, 2021)




----------



## Raheem (Oct 13, 2021)

ska invita said:


>



The more they say it, the less likely I think it is to happen.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 14, 2021)

French fishermen warn of blockades in UK licence row
					

Why the fishermen of Boulogne-sur-Mer are angry at being refused licences to fish in British waters.



					www.bbc.co.uk
				



"We'll create as much disruption as we can, by blocking the things Britain needs the most," he said.
"We saw the [impact of the] gas shortage; we'll try to create another shortage of something else. We're ready to block everything: Calais, Dunkirk, the Channel Tunnel. We need this fishing licence and we'll do anything to get it."


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 14, 2021)

of course get angry at the French not the dippy fucker painting sunsets in Spain


----------



## Artaxerxes (Oct 14, 2021)

Raheem said:


> St Crispin is the patron saint of Pringles tubes.



Pringles aren’t crisps


----------



## bimble (Oct 14, 2021)

If it was British small boat fishermen threatening direct action to keep their liveihoods that would be noble and good but they're execrable frenchmen obvs.


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 14, 2021)

bimble said:


> If it was British small boat fishermen threatening direct action to keep their liveihoods that would be noble and good but they're execrable frenchmen obvs.


But you just hate Brits and the UK. If it was British fishermen being restricted by the French you’d be asking what gives them the right to fish in French waters.


----------



## bimble (Oct 14, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> But you just hate Brits and the UK. If it was British fishermen being restricted by the French you’d be asking what gives them the right to fish in French waters.


Yes. I am an Enemy of the People & a Citizen Of Nowhere


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 14, 2021)

bimble said:


> Yes. I am an Enemy of the People & a Citizen Of Nowhere


No. Just anti- British.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Oct 14, 2021)

Serge Forward said:


> I thought that was St Stephen... oh wait, he was the patron Saint of pizzas.



Saint Michael has the upmarket ready meals portfolio.


----------



## bimble (Oct 14, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> No. Just anti- British.


You’re right actually, I feel the least patriotic I’ve ever felt right now, which is saying quite a lot.


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 14, 2021)

damn you brimble and you anti British fever

bet you don't even have a massive bloody apron flying majestically on a flag pole outside your house


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Oct 14, 2021)

bimble said:


> You’re right actually, I feel the least patriotic I’ve ever felt right now.



Fair play to you Bimble. At least you recognise your inverted exceptionalism.


----------



## bimble (Oct 14, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Fair play to you Bimble. At least you recognise your inverted exceptionalism.


What does that mean?


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Oct 14, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> damn you brimble and you anti British fever
> 
> bet you don't even have a massive bloody apron flying majestically on a flag pole outside your house



Yes, there are only two possible ways of thinking about it: weird inverted exceptionalism or flag waving idiocy. 

It’s the nuance that makes this thread so enjoyable


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 14, 2021)

bimble said:


> You’re right actually, I feel the least patriotic I’ve ever felt right now, which is saying quite a lot.


It’s not a question of lack of patriotism. It’s racism towards your own country. Not sure what that’s called.


----------



## bimble (Oct 14, 2021)

What’s inverted exceptionalism is it the same thing as continuity remain.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 14, 2021)

So Brexit folk support the right of the fishing industry's direct action to retain their livelihood and incomes?


----------



## ska invita (Oct 14, 2021)

Raheem said:


> The more they say it, the less likely I think it is to happen.



Do you think the Tories will agree to the "80% of checks scrapped" offer? It is contingent on actually building border infrastructure and letting the EU be able to check that border control is happening and be able to intervene if they aren't (ECJ)
I would bet the Tories wont agree* to anything that actually means having border infrastructure with any EU oversight, even if the EU scraps 99% of the required checks.
We shall see soon enough


*well they agreed to it last year - co-wrote it and agreed to it when they signed the Protocol that "no UK prime minister could ever agree to"


----------



## bimble (Oct 14, 2021)

brogdale said:


> So Brexit folk support the right of the fishing industry's direct action to retain their livelihood and incomes?


No cos they’re not British. When we talk about workers we only mean British ones.


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 14, 2021)

hmm I was taking the mick because suddenly brimble is anti British

which is a bit of weird remark seeming as all she stated is anti brexit leading ideas

but of course it's the brexiter lot who are really being victimised


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Oct 14, 2021)

brogdale said:


> So Brexit folk support the right of the fishing industry's direct action to retain their livelihood and incomes?



I fully support direct action by all workers. I don’t ask where they come from first. 

Would you support direct action by fishermen from Grimsby grabbing more fishing territory for themselves to protect their jobs?


----------



## brogdale (Oct 14, 2021)

bimble said:


> No cos they’re not British. When we talk about workers we only mean British ones.


I was kind of hoping they'd respond, themselves really.


----------



## bimble (Oct 14, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> It’s not a question of lack of patriotism. It’s racism towards your own country. Not sure what that’s called.


5th columnist I think, I should probably be exiled.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 14, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I fully support direct action by all workers. I don’t ask where they come from first.
> 
> Would you support direct action by fishermen from Grimsby grabbing more fishing territory for themselves to protect their jobs?


That's clear; you support the French fishing industry.
Not sure it's about grabbing more territory, though. My understanding is that the dispute revolves around waters that they've traditionally fished (because they're a few miles from France).


----------



## gosub (Oct 14, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Yes, there are only two possible ways of thinking about it: weird inverted exceptionalism or flag waving idiocy.
> 
> It’s the nuance that makes this thread so enjoyable


What about the lot waving EU flags and saying nothing to do with me.  Surely that both inverted exceptionalism AND flag waving idiocy.


----------



## gosub (Oct 14, 2021)

bimble said:


> If it was British small boat fishermen threatening direct action to keep their liveihoods that would be noble and good but they're execrable frenchmen obvs.


How small? In relation to the size of the boats Geldolf was jeering at in 2016


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Oct 14, 2021)

gosub said:


> What about the lot waving EU flags and saying nothing to do with me.  Surely that both inverted exceptionalism AND flag waving idiocy.



Inverted excpetionalists and flag waving buffoons? You must be talking about continuity remain.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Oct 14, 2021)

I was anti-British long before Brexit do I win a prize?


----------



## bimble (Oct 14, 2021)

gosub said:


> How small? In relation to the size of the boats Geldolf was jeering at in 2016


I am not sure. 'small' according to TopCat 's article .


----------



## philosophical (Oct 14, 2021)

I might be reading things wrong, but have we now come to a point where being anti Brexit means you’re an anti British racist?
Maybe that label is true coming from Brexiteers who are experts on racism.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Oct 14, 2021)

philosophical said:


> I might be reading things wrong, but have we now come to a point where being anti Brexit means you’re an anti British racist?
> Maybe that label is true coming from Brexiteers who are experts on racism.



You are reading things wrong.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 14, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> It’s not a question of lack of patriotism. It’s racism towards your own country. Not sure what that’s called.


It is possible to criticise/hate the UK state without holding "racist" views of the people that happen to live under its jurisdiction. Or are we going down the route of the antisemitism arguments?


----------



## bimble (Oct 14, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> I was anti-British long before Brexit do I win a prize?


Depends, who did you support in the euro cup final this year?


----------



## Artaxerxes (Oct 14, 2021)

bimble said:


> Depends, who did you support in the euro cup final this year?



Football is also shit


----------



## gosub (Oct 14, 2021)

philosophical said:


> I might be reading things wrong, but have we now come to a point where being anti Brexit means you’re an anti British racist?
> Maybe that label is true coming from Brexiteers who are experts on racism.


wtf is the British race?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 14, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> You are reading things wrong.


yeh when he has to say he may be he definitely is


----------



## Artaxerxes (Oct 14, 2021)

gosub said:


> wtf is the British race?



Puce


----------



## gosub (Oct 14, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Football is also shit


Agreed.  But they could make the European cup a fuck site quicker if they followed that twat in the Commission (forget who) Olympic idea, and just have an EU team for thems that are in the EU


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 14, 2021)

brogdale said:


> It is possible to criticise/hate the UK state without holding "racist" views of the people that happen to live under its jurisdiction. Or are we going down the route of the antisemitism arguments?


Sort of like the UK is a shithole position?


----------



## brogdale (Oct 14, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Sort of like the UK is a shithole position?


Not really, no.


----------



## philosophical (Oct 14, 2021)

gosub said:


> wtf is the British race?


Well I wouldn’t know. It was hinted at earlier, hidden amongst some of the anti French stuff.
Which might beg the question does that include anti Breton, or Corsican or whatever.
The land mass generally called France has given the world some fantastic stuff and some fantastic people.
An accident of birth is an accident of birth, and nationalism and patriotism is as much of an invented notion as religion.


----------



## ska invita (Oct 14, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I fully support direct action by all workers. I don’t ask where they come from first.
> 
> Would you support direct action by fishermen from Grimsby grabbing more fishing territory for themselves to protect their jobs?


Would you? I wouldn't support "grabbing more fishing territory"... Fishing is a great example of where international cooperation is essential, both to protect livelihoods and the commons (the sea).


----------



## ska invita (Oct 14, 2021)

I think this thread could do with a sing song


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 14, 2021)

This has been enlightening, who knew the UK uses its military to project its interests across the world?

And Hounslow's on the up, nice pedestrianised high street with Somali cafes. Staines has shit bits, (Stanwell mostly) and nice bits (along the river). Both suffer from aircraft noise, but you soon get used to it.

Staines is rightly proud of its lino heritage, as the most famous son of Staines said:




			
				Ali G said:
			
		

> If lino was invented in Staines, so was breakin', inn'it




And if Europe wants a ruck, tell them to meet outside the George at the top of Staines High Street on Friday, 11pm. Bet they don't show, the shitters.


----------



## Maggot (Oct 14, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> But you just hate Brits and the UK. If it was British fishermen being restricted by the French you’d be asking what gives them the right to fish in French waters.


Ah yes, British fishermen: The poster boys for Brexit, who are all now worse off than before. 









						‘Stitched up and sold out’ - UK’s fishing crews outraged at Brexit betrayal five years after referendum
					

On the fifth anniversary of the vote to leave the EU, many in the fishing industry feel betrayed by a trade deal that effectively sacrificed one of the key promises of the Leave campaign




					www.independent.co.uk


----------



## Yossarian (Oct 14, 2021)

bimble said:


> What’s inverted exceptionalism is it the same thing as continuity remain.



It sounds like a phrase with a history behind it but it apparently isn't - a search for it only returned a few pages of results, mostly referring to either the US or Brazil, the only uses of it to refer to the UK were here and a post on mumsnet.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 14, 2021)

bimble said:


> What’s inverted exceptionalism is it the same thing as continuity remain.


no, it's unexceptionalism


----------



## TopCat (Oct 14, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> of course get angry at the French not the dippy fucker painting sunsets in Spain


I’m not angry. More laughing at them. The blatant hypocrisy.


----------



## bimble (Oct 14, 2021)

This thread is a cornucopia of delights, day is looking up for having been called an Inverted Exceptionalist _and _an Anti-British Racist before 9.30am.


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 14, 2021)

brogdale said:


> It is possible to criticise/hate the UK state without holding "racist" views of the people that happen to live under its jurisdiction.


Of course it’s possible. Just not on this thread, seemingly.


----------



## bimble (Oct 14, 2021)

TopCat said:


> I’m not angry. More laughing at them. The blatant hypocrisy.


what makes the fishermen hypocrites?


----------



## TopCat (Oct 14, 2021)

bimble said:


> what makes the fishermen hypocrites?


How many Jersey boats get to fish compared to French boats off of Jersey? 
Clue: not many.


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 14, 2021)

TopCat said:


> How many Jersey boats get to fish compared to French boats off of Jersey?
> Clue: not many.


This is a different fleet, tbf, but similar counter arguments will apply.


----------



## bimble (Oct 14, 2021)

TopCat said:


> How many Jersey boats get to fish compared to French boats off of Jersey?
> Clue: not many.


There are not many fishermen in Jersey. 
How does that make the french fishermen hypocrites?


----------



## TopCat (Oct 14, 2021)

I’m laughing most at the threats, made after a few vino rouge’s. The actions will all be at 08:00 so they can get home for lunch and and a nap.


----------



## bimble (Oct 14, 2021)

TopCat said:


> I’m laughing most at the threats, made after a few vino rouge’s. The actions will all be at 08:00 so they can get home for lunch and and a nap.


So nothing to do with hypocracy just laughing at them cos their threats are not going to succeed, ok.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 14, 2021)

Maybe we will have Barnier soon, that great white liberal hope, ceremoniously turning off electric supplies on TV while sucking his cheeks.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 14, 2021)

bimble said:


> This thread is a cornucopia of delights, day is looking up for having been called an Inverted Exceptionalist _and _an Anti-British Racist before 9.30am.


the morning is yet young


----------



## Maggot (Oct 14, 2021)

Can the Brexiteers find any British fisherman whose livelihoods have been improved by Brexit? Any at all?


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 14, 2021)

TopCat said:


> How many Jersey boats get to fish compared to French boats off of Jersey?
> Clue: not many.



more money to be made in being a tax haven than fishing


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Oct 14, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Would you? I wouldn't support "grabbing more fishing territory"... Fishing is a great example of where international cooperation is essential, both to protect livelihoods and the commons (the sea).



Workers v 'international cooperation' drawn up by the political representatives of capital. No contest.


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 14, 2021)

gosub said:


> wtf is the British race?



between Oxford and Cambridge each year old chap on the Thames


----------



## TopCat (Oct 14, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> more money to be made in being a tax haven than fishing


Not for Jersey’s working class. It doesn’t trickle down.


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 14, 2021)

bimble said:


> There are not many fishermen in Jersey.
> How does that make the french fishermen hypocrites?


There are many Jersey boats but they mostly fish their own waters or into the Atlantic. The Jersey argument is more about conservation than  nationalistic  rights protection.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 14, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Of course it’s possible. Just not on this thread, seemingly.


You don't think you're able to criticise the UK state without being racist on this thread?


----------



## gosub (Oct 14, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> between Oxford and Cambridge each year old chap on the Thames



I am  annually disappointed that the OU never makes the heats


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 14, 2021)

brogdale said:


> You don't think you're able to criticise the UK state without being racist on this thread?



Asked and answered.


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 14, 2021)

.


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 14, 2021)

.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 14, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Asked and answered.


No idea what you're on about.


----------



## Serge Forward (Oct 14, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> Saint Michael has the upmarket ready meals portfolio.


Used to be the patron saint of underwear.


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 14, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Sort of like the UK is a shithole position?



did you not get out at the first chance you got


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 14, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> did you not get out at the first chance you got


Felt like a change tbh  experience something different and something I’d never done and tbh probably wouldn’t of. Spent months weighing up pros and cons, first two years spent more time in the U.K. Then thought I’d make a fist of it . Settled now. I was back last week had a great time .


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 14, 2021)

fair play fella, not really having a go,

just feel bad  for the people who made doing that something like that so  much more complicated for themselves  by voting to leave


----------



## Mezzer (Oct 15, 2021)

UK needs over TWO MILLION workers: Active job posts hit a record high
					

Job market data from October 4 to 10 shows around 235,000 new job adverts were posted in the UK, bringing the total number of active postings to 2.29million.




					www.dailymail.co.uk
				




Brexit not mentioned once in the whole article.  Quite a feat.


----------



## bimble (Oct 15, 2021)

a whole bunch more temporary measures / relaxations to try to save our arses announced yesterday, including 800 butchers and caboatage rights for EU drivers. Maybe it's just going to go on like this until its UK people who are the only ones who really have lost their freedom of movement.









						Government set to bolster supply chains by extending cabotage rights
					

Announcing a consultation to temporarily amend cabotage rules and a package of measures to support the pig industry.




					www.gov.uk


----------



## bimble (Oct 15, 2021)

Last paragraph is the thing, why would you bother wasting your time negotiating seriously with the bunch of clowns currently representing the UK when they have made it perfectly clear that they can't be trusted.


----------



## philosophical (Oct 15, 2021)

Brexiteers say they need us more than we need them. Well a total cessation of trade between the UK and the EU would hurt the EU collectively to the tune of around 11-14%, and the UK to the tune of 42-46%.
If the EU want to retaliate because no agreement with the UK can be trusted then I would love to see it, because after all the Brexit supporters can then show everybody the sunny uplands without the inconvenience of EU complications.
Surprise surprise it is the border in Ireland issue that is casting the shadow.
Never mind eh, won’t the lexiter retro justifying poseurs sort it all out?


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 15, 2021)

All the little remainiacs rubbing their hands with glee at the prospect of UK shortages over the winter.


----------



## bimble (Oct 15, 2021)

i would not love to see it. I might be an anti british racist but i do live here too.


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 15, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> All the little remainiacs rubbing their hands with glee at the prospect of UK shortages over the winter.



yea it because we all hate the British clearly


----------



## philosophical (Oct 15, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> All the little remainiacs rubbing their hands with glee at the prospect of UK shortages over the winter.



Nah.
There won’t be shortages, all the little lexiteers will rub their lamp and a genie will appear and grant them three wishes.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 15, 2021)

Imagine a governing party getting a constitutional change and trading arrangement transition so wrong and still sub-sets of the electorate blame each other for the resulting mess.


----------



## ska invita (Oct 15, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Imagine a governing party getting a constitutional change and trading arrangement transition so wrong and still sub-sets of the electorate blame each other for the resulting mess.


i know what you mean, but are they getting it wrong or are they bravely fighting the foreigners for TRUE BREXIT, with any sniff of compromise being BINO. Its why the Brexit divisions have years to run yet


----------



## philosophical (Oct 15, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Imagine a governing party getting a constitutional change and trading arrangement transition so wrong and still sub-sets of the electorate blame each other for the resulting mess.


I blame each person who voted leave, and especially those who voted Tory in the get Brexit done election.
I am intrigued as to how any leavers can blame remainers for the resulting mess, but of course they do.
Probably because they’re all cunts like their fellow travellers Francois, Rees Mogg and many others.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 15, 2021)

ska invita said:


> i know what you mean, but are they getting it wrong or are they bravely fighting the foreigners for TRUE BREXIT, with any sniff of compromise being BINO. Its why the Brexit divisions have years to run yet


& IKWYM about the perceptions that are so deeply held by many voters who did support either side, but IMO any government that embarks, so unprepared, upon a course of action that threatens to undermine security of food supply, energy sources, medication etc. can be said to have got things wrong.

I also agree this has legs, yet.


----------



## bimble (Oct 15, 2021)

The government won the 2019 election on a total brazen lie, that at least is completely clear.
The people who sold it to us never for a moment took seriously their own brilliant oven ready deal. Choosing to focus your ire on the people who were conned is just depressing at this point tbh.


----------



## ska invita (Oct 15, 2021)

Its a massive moment coming up I think - the crunch of the paradox - despite all the pissing about the choice remains either 1. bin the protocol and theres a trade war or 2. reunification of Ireland following a period of political tensions there.
If they agree to a lighter touch border, but a real border in the sea, that may kick the can down the road a bit, but will still lead to number 2 i expect


----------



## bimble (Oct 15, 2021)

There's the issue of Biden saying he was not up for a trade deal if the Uk fucks about too much with the good friday agreement, but it does seem to me that lord Frost is an actual idiot, not a rational person / strategist, so he might do or say any stupid thing.


----------



## ska invita (Oct 15, 2021)

bimble said:


> There's the issue of Biden saying he was not up for a trade deal if the Uk fucks about too much with the good friday agreement, but it does seem to me that lord Frost is an actual idiot, not a rational person / strategist, so he might do or say any stupid thing.


im sure Frost has been given very clear instructions and objectives from above


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 15, 2021)

from who? Larry the cat


----------



## bimble (Oct 15, 2021)

ska invita said:


> im sure Frost has been given very clear instructions and objectives from above


from whom, Johnson? I really doubt it. He's not a details man or even a person with any kind of strong beliefs in anything . & I see no evidence that there's been any sort of coherent thought-through strategy at work at all in the whole process this year, just look at the stupid emergency responses day after day way too late.


----------



## bimble (Oct 15, 2021)

thread here, depressing but convincing:


----------



## Artaxerxes (Oct 15, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> All the little remainiacs rubbing their hands with glee at the prospect of UK shortages over the winter.



Yeah I fucking love having gaps in my shopping basket and higher energy prices while Boris goes for a wank in Spain.

God it’s great.

Grow the fuck up, nobodies happy with this shit and saying this brexit thing isn’t living up to the hype or the airy promises of a bunch of lying fuck nugget tory cunts is perfectly reasonable. Fair play for hgv drivers getting a bung but I’m not an hgv driver and my wages are fucking static and so are my wife’s.


----------



## ska invita (Oct 15, 2021)

bimble said:


> from whom, Johnson? I really doubt it. He's not a details man or even a person with any kind of strong beliefs in anything . & I see no evidence that there's been any sort of coherent thought-through strategy at work at all in the whole process this year, just look at the stupid emergency responses day after day way too late.


wonks - figurehead cummings has gone but there was a cabal of people advising and strategising on brexit and im sure these people remain. governments are full of advisers.


----------



## bimble (Oct 15, 2021)

ska invita said:


> wonks - figurehead cummings has gone but there was a cabal of people advising and strategising on brexit and im sure these people remain. governments are full of advisers.


well they've done a magnificently shit job so far then.
Eg) 1st october (i think)- no more ID cards you can't come in unless you have a full passport!
A couple days later, here's a few thousand emergency visas for lorry drivers, vast majority of whom only have ID cards & no passports, please come but on xmas day you'll be an illegal immigrant, couple of days later, oh actually you can stay til march. etc etc. Total and utter ballups. No grownups are in charge.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 15, 2021)

bimble said:


> well they've done a magnificently shit job so far then.
> Eg) 1st october (i think)- no more ID cards you can't come in unless you have a full passport!
> A couple days later, here's a few thousand emergency visas for lorry drivers, vast majority of whom only have ID cards & no passports, please come but on xmas day you'll be an illegal immigrant, couple of days later, oh actually you can stay til march. etc etc. Total and utter ballups. No grownups are in charge.


there is no need to malign the young as you do here when they'd do a far better job


----------



## Yossarian (Oct 15, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Yeah I fucking love having gaps in my shopping basket and higher energy prices while Boris goes for a wank in Spain.



"There are no shortages" --> "These shortages are unrelated to Brexit" --> "You bastards just love shortages, don't you?"


----------



## bimble (Oct 15, 2021)

No no we have moved on now, the shortages are GOOD, they're just the growing pains of our new high wage economy.


----------



## ska invita (Oct 15, 2021)

bimble said:


> well they've done a magnificently shit job so far then.


A matter of perspective - Im sure the ERG are currently drinking themselves into ecstatic early graves - working out better than they couldve hoped i expect.

plus this


----------



## bimble (Oct 15, 2021)

ska invita said:


> A matter of perspective - Im sure the ERG are currently drinking themselves into ecstatic early graves - working out better than they couldve hoped i expect.


idk. Checks on goods going out but still no checks on goods coming in from eu (cos we are not ready), all those thousands of 'temporary visas' issued, that whole unpleasantness with the petrol, all a bit shite for them too i reckon.


----------



## ska invita (Oct 15, 2021)

bimble said:


> idk. Checks on goods going out but still no checks on goods coming in from eu (cos we are not ready), all those thousands of 'temporary visas' issued, that whole unpleasantness with the petrol, all a bit shite for them too i reckon.


Rees Mogg said way back in 2018 that "the overwhelming opportunity for Brexit is over the next 50 years", so I m sure they dont mind a few bumps on the way to that golden decade. 
Same goes for Lexiters right? I remember the argument made that "yeah it'll be a tory brexit, but we will fight back against anything they do against us!" and "in the long run we'll be a step closer to socialism!"


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 15, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> "There are no shortages" --> "These shortages are unrelated to Brexit" --> "You bastards just love shortages, don't you?"


Highly ignorant post. Regardless of what may or may not have caused existing shortages, a trade war and blockades _will_ cause more.


----------



## gosub (Oct 15, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> "There are no shortages" --> "These shortages are unrelated to Brexit" --> "You bastards just love shortages, don't you?"


This came up in my youtube feed today.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Oct 15, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Highly ignorant post. Regardless of what may or may not have caused existing shortages, a trade war and blockades _will_ cause more.


Part of the problem for Remain is the fact that, politically speaking, it’s an empty vessel, as this contribution from the labour spokesperson demonstrates. As this - presumable Blairite - demonstrates they are utterly disorientated by a result that damaged everything they thought about themselves and their position as the narrating class. They have been unable to move beyond the trauma and remain politically paralysed and therefore irrelevant as a result.

I’ve been asking for months on here for someone to set out some ideas and a coherent position and programme on the future but there is no interest in their side doing so. Instead they claim that because the result didn’t go their way they are absolved of dealing with the here and now.

Now we have a complex and overlapping set of issues arising from the shutdown of the global economy due to covid, supply shortages and labour shortages. All of which is being compounder by a government of incompetent and clueless bunch of public schoolboys. And yet still the remainers sit whining about the referendum and Brexit rather than the present. I’ve given up trying to get any sense out of them, they are trapped in their own nostalgia for an imagined past


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 15, 2021)

damn remainers not getting with the programme and make a success of brexit

anti British the sinking lot of them


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Oct 15, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> damn remainers not getting with the programme and make a success of brexit
> 
> anti British the sinking lot of them


It’s about having political agency and ideas. The Tories have got an 11% lead in the opinion polls despite everything. By all means stomp your feet and display your saltiness about the referendum. Just don’t expect anyone else to listen or care


----------



## philosophical (Oct 15, 2021)

Leave won.
It’s their idea.
The here and now is down to the leave winners to enact, and remainers are at liberty to react.
If somebody thinks the whole thing is a shitshow, and was always going to be one, then why should they participate?
I would say that remainers have moved way past rejoin, and are now observing and criticising.
That isn’t even a negative, maybe somewhere within the criticism a leaver might decide that a particular aspect of what they’re doing is a shitshow so they stop doing it.
Like reneging on a treaty.


----------



## bimble (Oct 15, 2021)

Hows it going with the whole Capitalism is Faltering thing Smokeandsteam,  that was one of your benefits of brexit wasn't it. Are we there yet.


----------



## DaphneM (Oct 15, 2021)

philosophical said:


> I blame each person who voted leave, and especially those who voted Tory in the get Brexit done election.
> I am intrigued as to how any leavers can blame remainers for the resulting mess, but of course they do.
> Probably because they’re all cunts like their fellow travellers Francois, Rees Mogg and many others.


I blame people for voting for Corbyn to be head of Labour Party, making them unelectable and allowing Tories to get reelected when they were a shower of shite


----------



## MysteryGuest (Oct 15, 2021)

at the idea of Yossarian being a blairite.


----------



## ska invita (Oct 15, 2021)

DaphneM said:


> I blame people for voting for Corbyn to be head of Labour Party, making them unelectable and allowing Tories to get reelected when they were a shower of shite


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Oct 15, 2021)

bimble said:


> Hows it going with the whole Capitalism is Faltering thing Smokeandsteam,  that was one of your benefits of brexit wasn't it. Are we there yet.



Neoliberalism, Bimble and there is an entire thread on it if you've got any thing to say/add. Here is a starter: 









						Reading Recommendations: Neoliberalism and the nation state.
					

Budgen spotted encouraging copy-right busting piracy on email list not 15 minutes ago.




					www.urban75.net
				




As for capitalism failing, have you looked at the world recently or has your entire focus remained frozen in 2016?


----------



## Flavour (Oct 15, 2021)

Tbf bimble capitalism is not looking super healthy right now with all these labour struggles going on worldwide, it's the largest wave of open class struggle I can remember in my lifetime


----------



## andysays (Oct 15, 2021)

DaphneM said:


> I blame people for voting for Corbyn to be head of Labour Party, making them unelectable and allowing Tories to get reelected when they were a shower of shite


And we would have got away with it too, if it wasn't for you pesky meddling kids...


----------



## bimble (Oct 15, 2021)

The referendum was a long time ago, you're the one haunted by this ghostly presence of 'continuity remain'. I'm just interested in watching actual brexit playing out. You listed capitalism faltering as one of your brexit benefits, specifically. i have not observed this happening particularly more in the UK since 1st jan thats all.


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 15, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I’ve been asking for months on here for someone to set out some ideas and a coherent position and programme on the future but there is no interest in their side doing so. Instead they claim that because the result didn’t go their way they are absolved of dealing with the here and now.



And this translates to individual remainers. You have those who voted remain but accepted the result and now want to get on and make the best of it; and those like many on here who are still having tantrums and want to smash it all up. There's a palpable sense of satisfaction when problems occur. Despite the fact that they'll be affected, it means more to them to be able to bank the perceived "told you so" points.


----------



## andysays (Oct 15, 2021)

bimble said:


> The referendum was a long time ago, you're the one haunted by this ghostly presence of 'continuity remain'. I'm just interested in watching actual brexit playing out. You listed capitalism faltering as one of your brexit benefits, specifically. i have not observed this happening particularly more in the UK since 1st jan thats all.


If the shortages of various products and workers with appropriate skills we've been discussing for the last six months or however long it's been aren't examples of capitalism faltering, I really don't know what you would consider good examples.


----------



## bimble (Oct 15, 2021)

andysays said:


> If the shortages of various products and workers with appropriate skills aren't examples of capitalism faltering, I really don't know what you would consider good examples.


oh i see! on that basis then yes fair enough. I was sort of thinking we'd need to see some signs of attempts to solve these issues with something other than more capitalsim (its up to businesses to sort it out/ emergency visas) in order for it to count but i see what you mean.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Oct 15, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> And this translates to individual remainers. You have those who voted remain but accepted the result and now want to get on and make the best of it; and those like many on here who are still having tantrums and want to smash it all up. There's a palpable sense of satisfaction when problems occur. Despite the fact that they'll be affected, it means more to them to be able to bank the perceived "told you so" points.



As Larry Elliot recently pointed out that approach might give the individual some satisfaction, but as a form of political praxis it's 'an ugly look'. As you say most of the remain voters, all that I know personally, have long accepted the result (whilst not liking it) and have moved on, living as they do in the real world. But there is a rump - 'continuity remain' - who can't move on.


----------



## philosophical (Oct 15, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> And this translates to individual remainers. You have those who voted remain but accepted the result and now want to get on and make the best of it; and those like many on here who are still having tantrums and want to smash it all up. There's a palpable sense of satisfaction when problems occur. Despite the fact that they'll be affected, it means more to them to be able to bank the perceived "told you so" points.


Get on and make the best of it?
Any particular ‘it’ you have in mind?
Whatever the ‘it’ is, it isn’t what was on the ballot paper.
This is fuck all to do with I told you so points, but reaction to the ongoing practical consequences of whatever ‘it’ is.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Oct 15, 2021)

bimble said:


> The referendum was a long time ago, you're the one haunted by this ghostly presence of 'continuity remain'.



Interesting use of hauntological language Bimble. It is a useful way of thinking about continuity remain: cancelled futures causing a paralysis of political thought and action. I hadn't considered the _psychological manifestations of CR _before, thanks for that.


----------



## Yossarian (Oct 15, 2021)

MysteryGuest said:


> at the idea of Yossarian being a blairite.



While there is a certain amount of lashing out whenever anybody takes the piss out of the shifting goalposts on Brexit, I'm hoping the person being referred to as a Blairite and a Labour spokesperson was the person speaking in the Aaron Bastani tweet.


----------



## bimble (Oct 15, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Interesting use of hauntological language Bimble. It is a useful way of thinking about continuity remain: cancelled futures causing a paralysis of political thought and action. I hadn't considered the _psychological manifestations of CR _before, thanks for that.


what do you mean by cancelled futures?


----------



## gosub (Oct 15, 2021)

DaphneM said:


> I blame people for voting for Corbyn to be head of Labour Party, making them unelectable and allowing Tories to get reelected when they were a shower of shite


Yep should have stuck with the fella who went to the effort of having a load of policies etched into a monolith  and then said the policies weren't set in stone.   At least you knew you were dealing with


----------



## gosub (Oct 15, 2021)

bimble said:


> what do you mean by cancelled futures?


Dd you not get the memo about Keith's victory party?


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Oct 15, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> While there is a certain amount of lashing out whenever anybody takes the piss out of the shifting goalposts on Brexit, I'm hoping the person being referred to as a Blairite and a Labour spokesperson was the person speaking in the Aaron Bastani tweet.



I was wondering if that what that early post was about. The answer is the presumed Blairite I referred to is the Labour spokesperson. I thought that was fairly clear from the post: clearly not!


----------



## bimble (Oct 15, 2021)

gosub said:


> Dd you not get the memo about Keith's victory party?


oh, i thought he might have meant cancelled futures as in people being sad cos they can't retire to south of france anymore.


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 15, 2021)

philosophical said:


> This is fuck all to do with I told you so points ...



Don't be ridiculous. You're just a big old crybaby.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 15, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> And this translates to individual remainers. You have those who voted remain but accepted the result and now want to get on and make the best of it; and those like many on here who are still having tantrums and want to smash it all up. There's a palpable sense of satisfaction when problems occur. Despite the fact that they'll be affected, it means more to them to be able to bank the perceived "told you so" points.


But wanting retainers to "make the best of it" is expecting those holding the conservative position to embrace the radical.
I'd also be interested to hear more of what "making the best of it" might actually amount to for remain voters many of whom presumably neither own the means of production nor engage in the organised labour movement.


----------



## Badgers (Oct 15, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> You have those who voted remain but accepted the result and now want to get on and make the best of it


Never met a single one


----------



## brogdale (Oct 15, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Never met a single one


I really don't see where this notion comes from; those opposed to the 1975 ratification of the UK's accession in1973 never relented, and after 41 years succeeded in overturning the result. 

Why do leavers assume that those opposed to exiting the suprastate should suddenly be converted?


----------



## bimble (Oct 15, 2021)

I'd like to know what making the best of it looks like on a day to day basis too. Maybe it just means trying to not notice or talk about the problems that are happening, just being optimstic & ebullient like the PM. But what's actually happening is really interesting, imo, so that would be hard.


----------



## ska invita (Oct 15, 2021)

bimble said:


> I'd like to know what making the best of it looks like on a day to day basis too.


whistle this whenever the news comes on
**


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Oct 15, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Why do leavers assume that those opposed to exiting the suprastate should suddenly be converted?


It’s not, for me, about converting anyone. On a theoretical level I’m interested in the future. How do remainers want to proceed given that the economic model in which the EU is embedded is being  abandoned - not least in America and already in China - towards a politics of isolationism, repair-recovery, domestic demand, insourcing etc: post-neoliberalism basically. On a political level I’m interested in the now: and how we engage in it rather than re-fighting 2016 over and again. My frustration is the endless refraction and - the not very subtle or convincing - attempts to present everything that happens as ‘Brexit’

If you read my posts back you’ll find zero interest in ‘converting’ people. It’s pointless. Almost as pointless as this thread some would say..


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 15, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Never met a single one



You have now. I'm one. I know many others too.


----------



## ska invita (Oct 15, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> It’s not, for me, about converting anyone. On a theoretical level I’m interested in the future. How do remainers want to proceed given that the economic model in which the EU is embedded is being  abandoned - not least in America and already in China - towards a politics of isolationism, repair-recovery, domestic demand, insourcing etc: post-neoliberalism basically. On a political level I’m interested in the now: and how we engage in it rather than re-fighting 2016 over and again. My frustration is the endless refraction and - the not very subtle or convincing - attempts to present everything that happens as ‘Brexit’
> 
> If you read my posts back you’ll find zero interest in ‘converting’ people. It’s pointless. Almost as pointless as this thread some would say..


Are we really heading to post-neoliberalism do you think?
The US looks like doing another shot of Keynesian spending to oil the wheels - not really changing the fundamentals.
China is continuing its state capitalism path, long trodden now. The only change i see there is techno-totalitarianism
Brexit isnt meant to be isolationism, according to its architects its about new markets / cheaper shit from beyond the EU, like more rainforest destroying crap from Brazil . Liam Fox's plans to liberalise the NHS via a Trumpian US trade deal were drafted and narrowly avoided < hardly post-neoliberalism.


----------



## bimble (Oct 15, 2021)

I don't think any of that is actually happening, we are not about to deglobalise, not even here. America First was just trumpy noise and china continues to expand its import and export flows / overseas business empires massively.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Oct 15, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Are we really heading to post-neoliberalism do you think?
> The US looks like doing another shot of Keynesian spending to oil the wheels - not really changing the fundamentals.
> China is continuing its state capitalism path, long trodden now.
> Brexit isnt meant to be isolationism, according to its architects its about new markets / cheaper shit from beyond the EU, like more rainforest destroying crap from Brazil . Liam Fox's plans to liberalise the NHS via a Trumpian US trade deal were drafted and narrowly avoided < hardly post-neoliberalism.



Whatever the US and China are doing its not exactly a poster campaign for sunny rosy post-neoliberalism. 

America’s still fully fucking over its minorities with its petrol and gas extraction campaigns - water is increasingly screwed not to mention the absolute shitshow that is healthcare and policing over there. 

In China’s case particularly it’s wiped out and damaged the lives of millions in HK and Xinjiang not to mention the daily oppression and propaganda of its own citizens and the dickwaving over Taiwan  

Bones are being thrown at the working class to defuse the major problems with neoliberalism but it’s a long way to go to call it dead and capitalism has been very good at surviving so far


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Oct 15, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Are we really heading to post-neoliberalism do you think?
> The US looks like doing another shot of Keynesian spending to oil the wheels - not really changing the fundamentals.
> China is continuing its state capitalism path, long trodden now.
> Brexit isnt meant to be isolationism, according to its architects its about new markets


I’ve been reading Tooze, Meadway and others and especially this:





__





						Verso
					

Verso Books is the largest independent, radical publishing house in the English-speaking world.




					www.versobooks.com
				




I’d be interested in remainer views, as what seems to be inarguable, is a drift away from the underpinning assumptions of the EU economic model. Where does that leave those opposed to leave and who, presumably, want closer economic ties with the EU at some point in the future. How do those who pine for the EU proceed if the foundations on which it was built are crumbling etc


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 15, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> You have now. I'm one. I know many others too.



did you get an Irish passport for the love of your roots or to negate losing freedom of movement


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 15, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> did you get an Irish passport for the love of your roots or to negate losing freedom of movement


The former mainly, as well documented here.


----------



## bimble (Oct 15, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I’ve been reading Tooze, Meadway and others and especially this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That book seems to say that the Pandemic is going to bring / has already led to major long term changes in how the world and states work, that this is going to be the end of business as usual. I don't see how that's 'inarguable' at all, everyone seems pretty desperate to get back to 'normal' in this post-pandemic State.
I mean, our own government did furlough, which was quite a thing, for a while, and now they're back to taking back that £20 a week, so has there really been a change or just a blip. Whole premise seems pretty shaky.


----------



## ska invita (Oct 15, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I’ve been reading Tooze, Meadway and others and especially this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I havent read that so cant comment directly. However I'm sceptical that Tories are now Big State interventionists - or any of their numerous ilk in the rest of the world.

There's been a lot of breathless chat about Covid restructuring our society, looks like little has changed to me. Bought a brief respite to the sell-off of the NHS, a bit more flexible home working for some, hastened the move to a digital cashless economy, put some people out of business.... anything else? What else has Covid really done to socio-economics?
Theres about to be some more austerity to "pay for furlough", according to yesterdays papers, looking at the autumn budget

I'm not dismissing this though (from the blurb in your link):
"The central issue in dispute is what mission the post-pandemic state should pursue:
whether it should protect native workers from immigration and the rich against redistributive demands, as proposed by the right’s authoritarian protectionism;
or reassert social security and popular sovereignty against the rapacity of financial and tech elites, as advocated by the left’s social protectivism"
...but having points-based migration doesn't mean an end to neo-liberalism - the two in fact go together in many countries.

The bigger the crisis the bigger the need for state intervention, and no doubt there are some deep crises on the horizon (climate related the biggest), but even that isn't necessarily contradictory to neoliberalism (particularly in the short term).


----------



## kebabking (Oct 15, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Never met a single one



I'm one, you can check the interminable pre-referendum threads to check my preferences. My wife is another, most of my colleagues - middle class, mostly graduates - are the same.

I'm sorry if that offends you...


----------



## Badgers (Oct 15, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> You have now. I'm one. I know many others too.


Many? 

Are you getting PMs and WhatsApp messages of support?


----------



## ska invita (Oct 15, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Theres about to be some more austerity to "pay for furlough", according to yesterdays papers, looking at the autumn budget











						Sunak ‘planning £2bn in cuts and the UK’s highest peacetime tax rate’
					

Chancellor on track to impose a package of manifesto-busting tax increases at this month’s budget, says IFS




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Badgers (Oct 15, 2021)

kebabking said:


> I'm one, you can check the interminable pre-referendum threads to check my preferences. My wife is another, most of my colleagues - middle class, mostly graduates - are the same.
> 
> I'm sorry if that offends you...


Does not offend me. Just surprising and disappointing


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 15, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Many?
> 
> Are you getting PMs and WhatsApp messages of support?


No. I just don’t base my view of the process on this thread and Guardian articles


----------



## Badgers (Oct 15, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> No. I just don’t base my view of the process on this thread and Guardian articles


Nor do I thankfully 

The only turncoat wankers I have encountered is leavers regretting voting leave.


----------



## DaphneM (Oct 15, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Never met a single one


I am one of them


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Oct 15, 2021)

Badgers said:


> The only turncoat wankers I have encountered is leavers regretting voting leave.


Middle class dilettantes


----------



## bimble (Oct 15, 2021)

Fully accept that I was in the minority that day in 2016 and that brexit has happened / is happening but still don’t think it was a good idea or that it’s going well. Idk whether that means I’m failing to ‘make the best of it’.


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 15, 2021)

Badgers said:


> The only turncoat wankers I have encountered is leavers regretting voting leave.



Why am I not surprised!


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 15, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> And this translates to individual remainers. You have those who voted remain but accepted the result and now want to get on and make the best of it; and those like many on here who are still having tantrums and want to smash it all up. There's a palpable sense of satisfaction when problems occur. Despite the fact that they'll be affected, it means more to them to be able to bank the perceived "told you so" points.


I’m glad you said this . My family are half remain half leave , my friends are around a third remain two thirds leave . When I was back in England last week the only time Brexit was mentioned was when people asked me if it had affected me in Portugal. When I asked , in return , had it affected them people just shrugged and said not really aside from the fact that the Co-op occasionally ran out of things more than it used to . Oh and Hyde’s pub were doing Stowford Press rather than Strongbow . Safe to say I’m the only one on Urban out of the lot of them.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 15, 2021)

bimble said:


> Fully accept that I was in the minority that day in 2016 and that brexit has happened / is happening but still don’t think it was a good idea or that it’s going well. Idk whether that means I’m failing to ‘make the best of it’.


I hope that Spymaster will be able to explain what he means by the phrase.


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 15, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> I’m glad you said this . My family are half remain half leave , my friends are around a third remain two thirds leave . When I was back in England last week the only time Brexit was mentioned was when people asked me if it had affected me in Portugal. When I asked , in return , had it affected them people just shrugged and said not really aside from the fact that the Co-op occasionally ran out of things more than it used to . Oh and Hyde’s pub were doing Stowford Press rather than Strongbow . Safe to say I’m the only one on Urban out of the lot of them.



Yep. It's only really places like this that the nutters are properly active. Pretty much everyone else that I'm aware of is just getting on with it.


----------



## bimble (Oct 15, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> just getting on with it.


what does this mean, just not being interested in or talking about the whole brexit thing cos its 'done'?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 15, 2021)

bimble said:


> what does this mean, just not being interested in or talking about the whole brexit thing cos its 'done'?


you know what the answer to this is, it's the same every time you ask what something means


----------



## Yossarian (Oct 15, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Yep. It's only really places like this that the nutters are properly active. Pretty much everyone else that I'm aware of is just getting on with it.



Everyone on this thread is a moth around the same light, tbf.


----------



## bimble (Oct 15, 2021)

what does ‘just getting on with it’ mean Spymaster ?


----------



## bimble (Oct 15, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> you know what the answer to this is, it's the same every time you ask what something means


Nah bollocks. If I’m wrong explain what it does mean. Getting on with it / making the best of it are nonsense words, mustn’t grumble.


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 15, 2021)

bimble said:


> what does this mean, just not being interested in or talking about the whole brexit thing cos its 'done'?



I don't think there's a lack of interest in how it's going to pan-out eventually but most of those who voted leave did so for political reasons which they've achieved. The whole thing hasn't been anywhere near as bad as the doom-mongers were predicting even if it has been handled horrendously in parts, and most people who aren't locked into a way of thinking about it think it'll improve and are taking things day by day. Convincing militant remaniacs of that though is impossible, so nobody tries.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 15, 2021)

bimble said:


> Nah bollocks. If I’m wrong explain what it does mean. Getting on with it / making the best of it are nonsense words.


getting on with it is getting on with the damn thing as it unfolds. you've read here fuck loads of times that brexit hasn't been done, it's not a dinner party or a festival but a process which will be going on for years to come. if you don't know brexit by now you'll never never know it


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 15, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> Everyone on this thread is a moth around the same light, tbf.



I'me not so sure. It's not an informative thread; just an opportunity to slag each other off! It's a knockabout, like the anti-car propaganda one.


----------



## bimble (Oct 15, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> I don't think there's a lack of interest in how it's going to pan out eventually but most of those who voted leave did so for political reasons which they've achieved. The whole thing hasn't been anywhere near as bad as the doom-mongers were predicting even if it has been handled horrendously in parts and most people who aren't locked into a way of thinking about it think it'll improve.Convincing militant remaniacs of that though is impossible so nobody tries.


Making the best of it is about just waiting for things to improve then. Ok.


----------



## Serge Forward (Oct 15, 2021)

"Getting on with it" cf. "buck up", "pull yourself together", "move on", "knuckle under"... etc...


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 15, 2021)

bimble said:


> Making the best of it is about just waiting for things to improve then. Ok.



If you like. Waiting and expecting, as opposed to praying for Armageddon like some others!


----------



## philosophical (Oct 15, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I’ve been reading Tooze, Meadway and others and especially this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


A lot of remainers are pining for losses that go beyond the economic. Freedom of movement being one.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 15, 2021)

Serge Forward said:


> "Getting on with it" cf. "buck up", "pull yourself together", "move on", "knuckle under"... etc...


Like they used to say to the likes of Galloway's mate Alan Sked?


----------



## bimble (Oct 15, 2021)

I think many of the problems we are starting to see will prove to be permanent or at least very long term and not some little bumpy road teething problems, just the start of the new great Britian. So I’m not going to be as cheerily optimistic as some.


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 15, 2021)

bimble said:


> I think many of the problems we are starting to see will prove to be permanent or at least very long term and not some little bumpy road teething problems, just the start of the new great Britian.



Of course you do. You decided what to think ages ago.


----------



## bimble (Oct 15, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Of course you do. You decided what to think ages ago.


No, it’s not that, I’m just not optimistic enough to believe that all uk companies will start paying higher wages & then everything will be like before only we’ll all be richer. That seems nuts to me but it’s what Johnson says and what people on here seem to believe too.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 15, 2021)

bimble said:


> No, it’s not that, I’m just not optimistic enough to believe that all uk companies will start paying higher wages & then everything will be like before only we’ll be richer. That seems nuts to me but it’s what Johnson says and what people on here seen to believe too.


your boards seem to be different to my boards


----------



## ska invita (Oct 15, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> I’m glad you said this . My family are half remain half leave , my friends are around a third remain two thirds leave . When I was back in England last week the only time Brexit was mentioned was when people asked me if it had affected me in Portugal. When I asked , in return , had it affected them people just shrugged and said not really aside from the fact that the Co-op occasionally ran out of things more than it used to . Oh and Hyde’s pub were doing Stowford Press rather than Strongbow . Safe to say I’m the only one on Urban out of the lot of them.


I'm glad you said this - I love a personal anecdote.
Heres how its affected me and friends/family:
Partner and I shouted at to "Leave" out of a passing van the day after the referendum - a step up from pre-referendum having a coin thrown at me and told "theres a euro fuck off back to poland"
My cousin and his wife who started a business here and whose child was born in London have moved away, at least in part because they no longer felt "welcome"
Friends brother has moved back from Spain in which he was long settled as he no longer passed their annual income laws
At work our small euro mail order has dried up, including some very regular expat customers as tax is too high (being mis-applied in many cases from what I can tell too - people are being charged way more than they should)
Not the end of the world tbh, but then I'm not one of the half a million people currently without any legal status to be in the country

ETA: oh and i now live in a country with perpetual tory rule on the back of their nationalist brexit success which has sunk labour below the water line and broken through a cultural barrier of working class voting tory

Tbf the attitude of making the best of the (political) situation applies for every day throughout history, nothing unique about today


----------



## Badgers (Oct 15, 2021)

Guardian link for TopCat and Spymaster  

#projectfear 





__





						It was Tory governments that created the low-wage economy – not immigration | Economic policy | The Guardian
					






					amp-theguardian-com.cdn.ampproject.org


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 15, 2021)

ska invita said:


> I'm glad you said this - I love a personal anecdote.
> Heres how its affected me and friends/family:
> Partner and I shouted at to "Leave" out of a passing van the day after the referendum - a step up from pre-referendum having a coin thrown at me and told "theres a euro fuck off back to poland"
> My cousin and his wife who started a business here and whose child was born in London have moved away, at least in part because they no longer felt "welcome"
> ...


Sorry to hear this Ska , especially the abuse you and your wife suffered pre and post referendum in London of all places . My anecdote was simply my anecdote about the the lack of intensity that my family and friends felt about Brexit .  Wasn’t wanting to make a broader political point however will come back to you, with  my thoughts about how Labour was sunk in due course .


----------



## BobDavis (Oct 15, 2021)

Having failed to attract foreign drivers to drive short term for UK transport companies Cabotage law is being relaxed. In practice what that will mean is Eastern European reg truck arrives on ferry with fridge trailer loaded with veg for a Tesco rdc. Under current cabotage law after delivering load it could do 1 internal UK load then it would have to reload for continent & take a ferry out of UK.

The change of law will allow the foreign reg truck to arrive in UK then after delivering import load it can work in UK doing unlimited amount of loads for 2 weeks before shipping back abroad say Holland. Whereupon there will be nothing to stop that truck reloading with veg in wharehouse 3 miles from Hook of Holland them shipping back to Harwich on next ferry & working in the UK for another fortnight. Shapps was on LBC this morning crowing about this & how they were saving Christmas etc & even right wing cunt Ferrari was pointing out how this was undercutting UK transport firms. 

The trucks will invariably be from Eastern European EU countries but even these countries are having trouble recruiting drivers so they are employing drivers from the Ukraine & Belarus who will be working in the UK for wages of around 400€ per month plus about 20€ a day expenses. The drivers will be living out in their cabs for months. Most of the trucks will be subcontracted to large Dutch transport companies who will be making handsome profits from this.

UK transport firms are screaming blue murder about this but I doubt brexit voters will care even though this is another brexit betrayal. I know about road transport so I understand absolutely what is going on here but I doubt most leave voters will & nor will they care I doubt. Like the prime minister they voted for. They don’t do detail.


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 15, 2021)

as someone remarked to me previously in this thread you should just work harder


----------



## Elpenor (Oct 15, 2021)

BobDavis said:


> Having failed to attract foreign drivers to drive short term for UK transport companies Cabotage law is being relaxed. In practice what that will mean is Eastern European reg truck arrives on ferry with fridge trailer loaded with veg for a Tesco rdc. Under current cabotage law after delivering load it could do 1 internal UK load then it would have to reload for continent & take a ferry out of UK.
> 
> The change of law will allow the foreign reg truck to arrive in UK then after delivering import load it can work in UK doing unlimited amount of loads for 2 weeks before shipping back abroad say Holland. Whereupon there will be nothing to stop that truck reloading with veg in wharehouse 3 miles from Hook of Holland them shipping back to Harwich on next ferry & working in the UK for another fortnight.
> 
> ...


The wonders of neoliberalism


----------



## Artaxerxes (Oct 15, 2021)

Elpenor said:


> The wonders of neoliberalism



No brexit killed neoliberalism in the UK remember, these are sunlit uplands.


----------



## bimble (Oct 15, 2021)

This is a thing that might happen next - big lorry driver strike for improved working facilities, safe parking spots, washing places facilities etc. 








						Christmas ‘held hostage’ as unions threaten mass lorry strikes
					

A senior union official has threated to 'cut off supply' while a national shortage of drivers is ongoing.




					metro.co.uk
				



I fully support it - fuck xmas and all who obsess about her. The problem here is not just brexit its that the Uk is a shit place to work, the EU has just announced a massive investment in trucking infrastucture so the UK needs to be forced to do the same or better. I hope this strike happens, if only because i think its the best chance of long term solving my access to burrata problem.


----------



## editor (Oct 15, 2021)

bimble said:


> I think many of the problems we are starting to see will prove to be permanent or at least very long term and not some little bumpy road teething problems, just the start of the new great Britian. So I’m not going to be as cheerily optimistic as some.


There's still zero improvement for touring musicians who remain utterly fucked because of fucking Brexit.


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 15, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> I'me not so sure. It's not an informative thread; just an opportunity to slag each other off! It's a knockabout, like the anti-car propaganda one.



really

none of us have suggested grassing each up for weird reasons


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 15, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> really
> 
> none of us have suggested grassing each up for weird reasons



Not sure what you're on about, Ax. 

Looks like we're gonna be doing the popstar thing again though. 

<snoooooooze>


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 15, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Not sure what you're on about, Ax.
> 
> Looks like we're gonna be doing the popstar thing again though.
> 
> <snoooooooze>




popstar thing again?

from the number one attention poster on the boards

you are play devils advocate for a position you have and will shed on a moments notices


good old spymaster


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 15, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> popstar thing again?
> 
> from the number one attention poster on the boards
> 
> ...



You misunderstood, bud.

Check PMs


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 15, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> popstar thing again?
> 
> from the number one attention poster on the boards
> 
> ...


He's steadfast in his positions which - strangely - are always diametrically opposed to mine


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 15, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> He's steadfast in his positions which - strangely - are always diametrically opposed to mine



"Strangely?"


----------



## two sheds (Oct 15, 2021)




----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 15, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> "Strangely?"


Strangely. You wait to see which way I jump and you go the other way


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 15, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Strangely. You wait to see which way I jump and you go the other way



Hopscotch?


----------



## BobDavis (Oct 16, 2021)

In my 40yr truck driving career wages went from double the national average for double the national average working hours to national average wage for double the national average working hours. So good luck to drivers who have got large wage increases which is not all of them. The supermarket rdc based store delivery jobs around the M25 ring have always paid good money & are paying even better money now but the wages of drivers based say in rural Devon who are delivering produce into these supermarket rdc’s have not risen much at all. Also worth pointing out that the well paid supermarket delivery jobs require shift work covering 24/7.

As for facilities for overnight parking in the UK when I started drivers could usually park overnight in town centre car parks so at least there were pubs & fish&chip shops nearby but none of that now. Overnight parking is mostly on overcrowded motorway service areas which were always crap places to sleep due to noise of vehicle movements all night. I’ve had jobs in my time which involved driving on the continent & it is a different world of quieter roads & better driver facilities at delivery points ie showers etc provided although motorway service areas get just as crowded with trucks at night as in UK.

Part of what caused the brexit vote imo was that UK companies of all types saw the influx of Eastern European workers after 2004 as a source of available labour that could not help but keep wages low whereas countries like Holland & France saw the potential social problems & the better employment laws in those countries tended to discourage foreign workers rather than actively encourage them as was the case in the UK. It is fair to say there are plenty of or even mostly Eastern European workers in the large Dutch meat processing industry though.

The idea that foreign workers are necessary to do the jobs that UK workers won’t do is bollocks though. Foreign workers with little English language cannot complain & it is to certain industries advantage mostly food production to have a captive workforce that will work as & when without complaint & it does amount to almost slave labour  conditions that UK workers would not put up with.


----------



## Badgers (Oct 16, 2021)

Sunlit Uplands for the French  









						EuroMillions: Record £184m jackpot won at last - by French ticket-holder
					

The winning EuroMillions numbers were 21, 26, 31, 34, 49 and the Lucky Star numbers were 02 and 05.




					news-sky-com.cdn.ampproject.org


----------



## gosub (Oct 16, 2021)

BobDavis said:


> Having failed to attract foreign drivers to drive short term for UK transport companies Cabotage law is being relaxed. In practice what that will mean is Eastern European reg truck arrives on ferry with fridge trailer loaded with veg for a Tesco rdc. Under current cabotage law after delivering load it could do 1 internal UK load then it would have to reload for continent & take a ferry out of UK.
> 
> The change of law will allow the foreign reg truck to arrive in UK then after delivering import load it can work in UK doing unlimited amount of loads for 2 weeks before shipping back abroad say Holland. Whereupon there will be nothing to stop that truck reloading with veg in wharehouse 3 miles from Hook of Holland them shipping back to Harwich on next ferry & working in the UK for another fortnight. Shapps was on LBC this morning crowing about this & how they were saving Christmas etc & even right wing cunt Ferrari was pointing out how this was undercutting UK transport firms.
> 
> ...


Tbf When Boris became PM, his first big International Meeting, G8 Biarritz, Cabotage was the first thing he talked about.


----------



## Raheem (Oct 16, 2021)

gosub said:


> Tbf When Boris became PM, his first big International Meeting, G8 Biarritz, Cabotage was the first thing he talked about.


Only to complain he'd ordered spinach, though.


----------



## Badgers (Oct 18, 2021)

Am sure I read a cabinet member stating that food will be cheaper after Brexit? 









						Britain's chicken king says the 20-year binge on cheap food is over
					

Britain's 20-year binge on cheap food is coming to an end and food price inflation could hit double digits due to a tidal wave of soaring costs that are crashing through the supply chain, Britain’s biggest chicken producer said.




					www.reuters.com


----------



## philosophical (Oct 18, 2021)

From what I can tell the Australian trade deal is becoming problematic, and hasn’t been agreed as yet.


----------



## MrSki (Oct 18, 2021)

How can anyone can think the whole shit show is going well? 
Remainers are not to blame & project fear is not bullshit but why shouldn't those who predicted this shit not turn round and say 'I told you so' 
Brexiteers won & should own it. Fucking Neoliberal bollocks can fuck the fuck off. The Working class are the ones who are suffering from this the most
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





Yeah HGV drivers are now getting a decent wage but the rest of those working will see increased prices before they get a catch-up pay rise. Still I am not a home owner so don't really care about interest rates but some are going to suffer badly & will become homeless. 
Still waiting for someone to actually state a benefit of brexit but have given up on that one.


----------



## Yossarian (Oct 18, 2021)

MrSki said:


> Still waiting for someone to actually state a benefit of brexit but have given up on that one.



You've not been keeping track: Strikes, pay rises, and other good things are benefits of Brexit.

Shortages, inflation, and other not-so-good things are the result of COVID.

The fact that strikes etc. are happening in other countries is a coincidence, but the shortages etc. in those countries is also COVID.


----------



## Yossarian (Oct 18, 2021)

Some people might draw the conclusion that the issue of Britain's EU membership is largely inconsequential in the face of much bigger issues and Brexit has only resulted in making things 10 to 20% shitter than they would have been otherwise, but those people are clearly fools and Remoaniacs.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 18, 2021)

MrSki said:


> Still waiting for someone to actually state a benefit of brexit but have given up on that one.


You really are the disingenuous arse of the thread.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 18, 2021)

MrSki said:


> Still waiting for someone to actually state a benefit of brexit but have given up on that one.


how much fun we've had over the past several years discussing brexit! - don't you see that as a benefit?


----------



## mod (Oct 18, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> I don't think there's a lack of interest in how it's going to pan-out eventually but most of those who voted leave did so for political reasons which they've achieved. The whole thing hasn't been anywhere near as bad as the doom-mongers were predicting even if it has been handled horrendously in parts, and most people who aren't locked into a way of thinking about it think it'll improve and are taking things day by day. Convincing militant remaniacs of that though is impossible, so nobody tries.



Watch this and tell me Brexit 'hasn't been anywhere near as bad as the doom-mongers were predicting'.









						Patrick Kielty: One Hundred Years of Union
					

Patrick Kielty explores what the future holds for Northern Ireland in its centenary year.




					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## kebabking (Oct 18, 2021)

mod said:


> Watch this and tell me Brexit 'hasn't been anywhere near as bad as the doom-mongers were predicting'.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Could you just give us a precis, rather than just demanding folk watch an hour long video like some conspiraloon linking to his YouTube channel?


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 18, 2021)

kebabking said:


> Could you just give us a precis, rather than just demanding folk watch an hour long video like some conspiraloon linking to his YouTube channel?


Fair do’s. I was just going to tell him to do one.


----------



## MrSki (Oct 18, 2021)

TopCat said:


> You really are the disingenuous arse of the thread.


Well I think that is a compliment coming from you.  

Brexit keeps on giving. The poor are so much richer & Sunny Uplands in October. Who could have imagined it going so well.


----------



## BobDavis (Oct 18, 2021)

I think any change of government will come when this government fails to deliver on Johnson’s promises & other parties produce a proper alternative plan. A hung parliament with some kind of liberal alliance would probably be ok. The worst aspect now is not brexit but creeping authoritarianism imo. Ok Johnson is a pound shop version of his mate Orban but I don’t think people in this country really want society to go in that direction. To change the government there is plenty to overcome. Our version of democracy for example & the possible coming requirement for photo id in order to disenfranchise voters who have neither driving licence or passport.

As with brexit it is up to people’s votes working within the system we have. I think for most people they want put brexit & covid behind them & get on with their lives. Brexit has affected some people badly but for most hardly at all. Possibly food prices would not have risen had we not left but our food prices are considerably lower than say France & in the past we have relied more than most countries on exploited foreign labour for our cheap food.

If we had stayed in by a small margin the brexit & right wing media voices would not have been silenced so my view is for now at least just let them get on with trying to prove how good brexit is but as a UK born pensioner brexit has not really affected my day to day life that much. The reason I voted remain is because I have travelled by road in Europe a fair bit & I like it. In my truck driving days I really loved stopping overnight in random German or French towns & just walking around & taking in the atmosphere. We never joined Schengen but I loved it a few years ago when you could drive across mostly with not even a passport check but this summer my passport was stamped & the clock was ticking on my 90 day EU access. Did voters realise they were ending their own free movement & for their kids & grandkids as well ? Plenty around me didn’t because I asked them. It is how I feel in myself but I understand how my neighbours who’s only experience of Europe is a weeks coach trip or package hols to Spain do not share my view.

If we do again get closer to the EU or even rejoin it will be at the will of voters now too young to vote or even not yet born imo. The main issue now is the creeping authoritarian nature of this government now which of course has been facilitated by brexit but it won’t changed by blaming leave voters who just wanted better public services. It will be changed by voters realising what is happening here.


----------



## bimble (Oct 18, 2021)

Yep. The crazy power grab that they are talking about now, this-


that is not happening because of brexit but because this gov are using brexit as a sort of shield behind which to push through authoritarian shit _as if its_ part of getting brexit done and freeing the country form the shackles of the Eu / the human rights act etc and hoping they get away with the illusion that if its brexity then the people must will it. Genuinely scary shit.


----------



## gosub (Oct 19, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Am sure I read a cabinet member stating that food will be cheaper after Brexit?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


How the fuck does one bloke end up supplying 1/3 of the country's chickens?


----------



## Raheem (Oct 19, 2021)

gosub said:


> How the fuck does one bloke end up supplying 1/3 of the country's chickens?


Hard work, determination and the fact that his parents supplied half the country's chickens in their time, I imagine.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Oct 19, 2021)

gosub said:


> How the fuck does one bloke end up supplying 1/3 of the country's chickens?



Pluck


----------



## scalyboy (Oct 19, 2021)

gosub said:


> How the fuck does one bloke end up supplying 1/3 of the country's chickens?


He must have one hell of a big chicken shed - maybe like Gus Fring's in Breaking Bad


----------



## gosub (Oct 19, 2021)

scalyboy said:


> He must have one hell of a big chicken shed - maybe like Gus Fring's in Breaking Bad


700 farms according to reutters.


----------



## ska invita (Oct 19, 2021)

gosub said:


> How the fuck does one bloke end up supplying 1/3 of the country's chickens?


buying up lots of farms and running under a conglomerate. Expect even more of this as smaller farmers go bust post-Brexit/post-CAP money.

Monopolies commission?


----------



## bimble (Oct 21, 2021)

British leavers and remainers as polarised as ever, survey finds
					

Nine out of 10 people would vote the same way again, but leavers feel better about UK politics since Brexit




					www.theguardian.com
				








__





						British Social Attitudes | NatCen Social Research
					

NatCen Social Research has conducted the British Social Attitudes survey every year since 1983.



					bsa.natcen.ac.uk


----------



## brogdale (Oct 21, 2021)

Surely, this is the least surprising 'news' of the day?
A self-selecting cohort of those credulous enough to believe that their L vote in the referendum would change anything substantially are obviously more likely to trust those who spun the lies?


----------



## Chilli.s (Oct 21, 2021)

I'm sure some still think that stuff on the bus was true


----------



## TopCat (Oct 21, 2021)

Hearrtfelt letter in the Grad. 
"On a recent trip to France, my newfound freedom meant that I was no longer able to slip from one country to another, but that I was treated as a foreigner on entering France, my passport being stamped and my visit limited. I crept in ashamed to be British, leaving behind a country with empty supermarket shelves, no fuel at the pumps and high Covid levels with shambolic pandemic advice."


----------



## Badgers (Oct 21, 2021)

Chilli.s said:


> I'm sure some still think that stuff on the bus was true


I am sure it was a bus


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 21, 2021)

Badgers said:


> I am sure it was a bus


the wheels on the bus did in fact go round and round, but not all day long


----------



## TopCat (Oct 21, 2021)

Chilli.s said:


> I'm sure some still think that stuff on the bus was true


Are you sure really? Did you ever meet anyone who said slogans on coaches influenced their vote?


----------



## Badgers (Oct 21, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Are you sure really? Did you ever meet anyone who said slogans on coaches influenced their vote?


Loads mate

Also a lot of racist reasons


----------



## brogdale (Oct 21, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Are you sure really? Did you ever meet anyone who said slogans on coaches influenced their vote?


VL knew exactly what they were doing; positing the NHS as one half of a zero-sum game was only ever going to influence many people.


----------



## Chilli.s (Oct 21, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Are you sure really? Did you ever meet anyone who said slogans on coaches influenced their vote?


sadly yes


----------



## philosophical (Oct 21, 2021)

It was on the bus like a Mail headline.
Plenty believe it like they thought pre the last election that a great settled deal had been done.
One great big clue that lexiters were not influenced by, was that the likes of Mark Francois were their fellow travellers.
I know the pig fucker was a remainer but in a binary choice it was him or Farage,
No contest.


----------



## Badgers (Oct 21, 2021)

People also believed Corbyn was antisemitic ffs

People still buy the Sun and the Mail ffs 

Of COURSE they believed the bus lies/fraud/con ffs


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Oct 21, 2021)

People are stupid, basically?


----------



## Artaxerxes (Oct 21, 2021)

The bus was made in the EU so it's obviously a liar


----------



## not a trot (Oct 21, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Loads mate
> 
> Also a lot of racist reasons



And getting rid of human rights. They really do believe that human rights are something the EU foisted upon us.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 21, 2021)

Fozzie Bear said:


> People are stupid, basically?


Offered a zero-sum choice between the NHS, which people know, use, depend upon and love, and the remote suprastate that folk tend(ed) to know fuck all about, there was nothing stupid about their 'choice'.


----------



## ska invita (Oct 21, 2021)

Fozzie Bear said:


> People are stupid, basically?


People are influenced by propaganda and campaigning otherwise why would anyone spend millions doing it?


----------



## Yossarian (Oct 21, 2021)

I remember seeing a lot more pre-referendum Facebook posts about the EU supposedly being poised to let Turkey join than anything about buses or the NHS.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 21, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> I remember seeing a lot more pre-referendum Facebook posts about the EU supposedly being poised to let Turkey join than anything about buses or the NHS.


That lie came from the top.


----------



## BobDavis (Oct 21, 2021)

I know several racist morons who were my truck driving colleagues. They all voted leave. I know plenty of leave voters who are ok though & they were not influenced by anything in the campaign. They would have voted leave anytime this century or last had they been given the chance which they were in the end. Their minds have not changed. Any obvious disadvantages of brexit they dismiss as “well of course they were always going to punish us”. I can’t see them changing their minds. Why would they ? 

This is how some people feel. They voted leave for emotional reasons not because they did the maths. I voted remain for emotional reasons. I liked being part of one big Europe. I have the day to day experience of travelling in Europe in the course of my truck driving work & I have always enjoyed driving my car in Europe going to places that you don’t really get to in a weeks package tour. My lifetime experience of Europe caused me to vote remain. Brexit has caused me some emotional distress but it has not really affected my day to day life as a w/c pensioner. Having my passport stamped arriving in France this year made me feel no longer European but my actual experience of my time in France was not really changed by brexit it was just in my head. 

Fact is where I live over 7 out of 10 voters voted leave. Most of them are not morons they are people I have known for decades. Sane reasonable friendly people. I have to accept they did not value EU membership like I did. It is not going to ruin the rest of my life though. We need a more left wing socialist government not to take us back in the EU but to start to solve the problems in this country.


----------



## philosophical (Oct 21, 2021)

Did they value relative peace in Ireland?


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Oct 21, 2021)

ska invita said:


> People are influenced by propaganda and campaigning otherwise why would anyone spend millions doing it?



Is it possible that they are influenced by other things as well?


----------



## ska invita (Oct 21, 2021)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Is it possible that they are influenced by other things as well?


Of course - our political opinions are informed by many factors.
But propaganda and campaigning about the EU was relentless for years, peaking before the vote. It would be ridiculous to say this was inconsequential


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Oct 21, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Of course - our political opinions are informed by many factors.
> But propaganda and campaigning about the EU was relentless for years, peaking before the vote. It would be ridiculous to say this was inconsequential



I don’t think anyone is saying that it was inconsequential.


----------



## BobDavis (Oct 21, 2021)

philosophical said:


> Did they value relative peace in Ireland?


Ireland was not even on their radar I doubt. Nor is it now. Ireland is very far away from Essex. Most people have to work so they have a couple of weeks to go on holiday so they will go to Spain & not Ireland. Most people I know have never been to Ireland. I have but only in my truck. There was never a problem with GB truck drivers delivering in Ireland even during the troubles. 

In my view relative peace in Ireland will continue. The trajectory will to be towards a united Ireland happening at some future point. I don’t see that as a bad thing & I doubt would most GB leave voters would either. I doubt the UK government will do anything drastic like abandoning the protocol. They know perfectly well to keep their voters on side there needs to be no disruption  of people’s day to day lives as there might be if they started a trade war with the EU. The EU does not want that either so there will be the usual fudge. This is why Johnson’s deal was so rubbish in the first place. He knew it was the best he could get & anything else would be worse. It is difficult to negotiate from a position of good to something as least worse as possible because it does not really make sense to those involved in the negotiations. 

I think you & some other posters need to let it go. Nobody is going to say “sorry it was all a mistake let’s wipe out the past 5 yrs & rejoin then things will get back to normal”. It is possible we may rejoin EU but it will be decades away if it does happen. Probably not in my lifetime.


----------



## philosophical (Oct 21, 2021)

BobDavis said:


> Ireland was not even on their radar I doubt. Nor is it now. Ireland is very far away from Essex. Most people have to work so they have a couple of weeks to go on holiday so they will go to Spain & not Ireland. Most people I know have never been to Ireland. I have but only in my truck. There was never a problem with GB truck drivers delivering in Ireland even during the troubles.
> 
> In my view relative peace in Ireland will continue. The trajectory will to be towards a united Ireland happening at some future point. I don’t see that as a bad thing & I doubt would most GB leave voters would either. I doubt the UK government will do anything drastic like abandoning the protocol. They know perfectly well to keep their voters on side there needs to be no disruption  of people’s day to day lives as there might be if they started a trade war with the EU. The EU does not want that either so there will be the usual fudge. This is why Johnson’s deal was so rubbish in the first place. He knew it was the best he could get & anything else would be worse. It is difficult to negotiate from a position of good to something as least worse as possible because it does not really make sense to those involved in the negotiations.
> 
> I think you & some other posters need to let it go. Nobody is going to say “sorry it was all a mistake let’s wipe out the past 5 yrs & rejoin then things will get back to normal”. It is possible we may rejoin EU but it will be decades away if it does happen. Probably not in my lifetime.



From my perspective I let the result go when it happened.
My focus has been on the practical issues in the light of what has been called a democratic decision.
I was intrigued by your phrase ‘usual fudge’ and I am doubtful if everybody is content with a fudge, or if it turns out to be ‘democratic’.
I have mentioned before that there may be a desire in some quarters to turn a blind eye to difficulties, but I think a fudge in Ireland is unsustainable.
I also have my doubts whether in current circumstances the road to a United Ireland will be a peaceful one.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Oct 21, 2021)




----------



## BobDavis (Oct 21, 2021)

philosophical said:


> From my perspective I let the result go when it happened.
> My focus has been on the practical issues in the light of what has been called a democratic decision.
> I was intrigued by your phrase ‘usual fudge’ and I am doubtful if everybody is content with a fudge, or if it turns out to be ‘democratic’.
> I have mentioned before that there may be a desire in some quarters to turn a blind eye to difficulties, but I think a fudge in Ireland is unsustainable.
> I also have my doubts whether in current circumstances the road to a United Ireland will be a peaceful one.


From where I am most people cannot really see why the protocol is even needed or what the fuss is about. I don’t think it really registers with most that brexit has resulted in a customs border within the UK. By a fudge I mean that both sides know the protocol will have to continue so there will be have to be compromise on both sides but that is the only way of maintaining an open border on the island of Ireland so there is no alternative really. As I said for most their vote either way was an emotional decision. They are not really interested in the detail. This government is betraying the brexit voters in plenty of ways. Whenever I point this out to people there is little interest. They just want to move on. 

Only way it might change is if the Tories do eventually lose their majority & UK rejoins customs union. Is that likely to happen though ? I doubt that would be anywhere near the top of an incoming alternative government’s agenda. We would have to pay handsomely for the privilege. I think it would be almost as politically impossible as rejoining EU.


----------



## philosophical (Oct 21, 2021)

If they're not interested in the detail, then a blue passport and brexit in name only would be enough?
Somehow I doubt it, after all the vote was accepted with all the detail regarding the numbers, and I think the emotional decision as you put it is a territory that can be exploited anyway.
They say the devil is in the detail whether those who voted leave like it or not.


----------



## Badgers (Oct 22, 2021)




----------



## Badgers (Oct 22, 2021)

Control


----------



## Badgers (Oct 22, 2021)




----------



## Badgers (Oct 22, 2021)




----------



## Badgers (Oct 23, 2021)




----------



## BobDavis (Oct 23, 2021)

Right wing Tory utter wankers who probably own homes in Marbella.


----------



## Badgers (Oct 23, 2021)

BobDavis said:


> Right wing Tory utter wankers who probably own homes in Marbella.


Busted flush


----------



## Badgers (Oct 23, 2021)

Bloody French  put them on the red list.


----------



## BobDavis (Oct 23, 2021)

Yes France have done it without much disruption. We were in Dordogne in the summer. Covid passes required for campsites & restaurants & masks until you sat down. UK passes accepted. The second barcode always scanned ok.  Masks in shops markets & in very busy town centres. We wern’t sure about in the street but a Gendarme told us to put them on. Tourist area was rammed Jul/Aug with trippers from all over Europe. Little social distancing but keeping mask requirement for crowded places seems to have done the job.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Oct 23, 2021)




----------



## Artaxerxes (Oct 24, 2021)




----------



## ska invita (Oct 24, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> View attachment 293981


article here
tldr, residency applications getting rejected, new moves/sales collapsed and cars with UK plates getting impounded + comedy appeal to the human rights court (presumably not the ECJ!) over the above


----------



## brogdale (Oct 24, 2021)

ska invita said:


> article here
> tldr, residency applications getting rejected, new moves/sales collapsed and cars with UK plates getting impounded + comedy appeal to the human rights court (presumably not the ECJ!) over the above


taking back control


----------



## Badgers (Oct 24, 2021)

brogdale said:


> taking back control


Sunlit Uplands


----------



## brogdale (Oct 24, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Sunlit Uplands


yeah, but they really are taking back control...and why wouldn't they?


----------



## teqniq (Oct 24, 2021)

Prisoners driving trucks now. I love the smell of desperation in the morning:


----------



## ska invita (Oct 24, 2021)

teqniq said:


> Prisoners driving trucks now. I love the smell of desperation in the morning:



for those not tempted to watch the video - watch the video


----------



## BobDavis (Oct 24, 2021)

ska invita said:


> article here
> tldr, residency applications getting rejected, new moves/sales collapsed and cars with UK plates getting impounded + comedy appeal to the human rights court (presumably not the ECJ!) over the above


Read the article carefully & then see what is going on here. It is playing to the Express brexit voter readers “oh they are punishing us I’m even more glad I voted leave now”. It takes a number of unrelated facts & creates a false narrative that Brits who have been resident in Spain for years driving locally reg cars & have done everything correctly are getting chucked out which is not true.

All this really boils down to is that Brit second home owners who have never been resident in Spain are now limited to 90days in every 180 due to ending of free movement. Plenty are not even home owners they own mobile homes & caravans on campsites & holiday parks. Before brexit many of them would stop down in Spain for 9mnths of the year coming & going as they liked. Many still cannot get it through their heads they can now only stay for 90days & then go home for 90days.

 The impounding of UK reg cars is not what it seems either. If you go there for 90days in your UK car no problem. Before brexit Brits would drive down in their cars & stop 6-9mnths & drive home no problem.  What is a problem & rightly so is Brits who drive a UK reg car to their place in France or Spain & keep it there for years flying home & driving the car locally with no UK tax & insurance. This practice has been going on for decades & people have been getting away with it presumably until they have an accident.

Before brexit Brits have been used to casually dossing around in Spain staying as long as they like & coming & going as they please. Now they can’t. I can’t really see a way around this though as your passport is now date stamped on arrival from UK to any EU country so they can see if you have stayed for more than 90days. There has been plenty about this on caravan & motorhome forums but there is no visa for extending the 90day tourist limit.


----------



## ska invita (Oct 24, 2021)

BobDavis said:


> Read the article carefully & then see what is going on here. It is playing to the Express brexit voter readers “oh they are punishing us I’m even more glad I voted leave now”. It takes a number of unrelated facts & creates a false narrative that Brits who have been resident in Spain for years driving locally reg cars & have done everything correctly are getting chucked out which is not true.
> 
> All this really boils down to is that Brit second home owners who have never been resident in Spain are now limited to 90days in every 180 due to ending of free movement. Plenty are not even home owners they own mobile homes & caravans on campsites & holiday parks. Before brexit many of them would stop down in Spain for 9mnths of the year coming & going as they liked. Many still cannot get it through their heads they can now only stay for 90days & then go home for 90days.
> 
> ...



thats all true but i know a "property owner" who was resident in spain for years who has had to leave/return the UK  - it is happening to those with insufficient income to satisfy the new bureaucracy.


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 24, 2021)

ska invita said:


> thats all true but i know a "property owner" who was resident in spain for years who has had to leave/return the UK  - it is happening to those with insufficient income to satisfy the new bureaucracy.


What do you mean by a “property owner” ?


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 24, 2021)

BobDavis said:


> Read the article carefully & then see what is going on here. It is playing to the Express brexit voter readers “oh they are punishing us I’m even more glad I voted leave now”. It takes a number of unrelated facts & creates a false narrative that Brits who have been resident in Spain for years driving locally reg cars & have done everything correctly are getting chucked out which is not true.
> 
> All this really boils down to is that Brit second home owners who have never been resident in Spain are now limited to 90days in every 180 due to ending of free movement. Plenty are not even home owners they own mobile homes & caravans on campsites & holiday parks. Before brexit many of them would stop down in Spain for 9mnths of the year coming & going as they liked. Many still cannot get it through their heads they can now only stay for 90days & then go home for 90days.
> 
> ...



Got to love express readers, if you vote for this you will lose freedom of movement


vote and lose freedom of movement,

Bloody Europeans punishing us for voting for brexit


the eu should send all expats who appeals to the Human right courts  tiny little violins in the post


----------



## spitfire (Oct 24, 2021)

teqniq said:


> Prisoners driving trucks now. I love the smell of desperation in the morning:




OMG that made me howl with laughter. Amazing.


----------



## NoXion (Oct 24, 2021)

The US and Italy are also experiencing truck driver shortages:



			Bloomberg - Are you a robot?
		










						Il lamento delle ditte dell'autotrasporto: mancano 17mila camionisti. Alzare gli stipendi? No,"chiamiamoli dall'estero" - Il Fatto Quotidiano
					

“Sempre meno giovani italiani vogliono mettersi al volante di un Tir”, esordisce così il Sole 24 Ore raccogliendo, in prima pagina, l’allarme di Anita, l’associazione degli autotrasportatori che fa capo a Confindustria (proprietaria del 61% dello stesso quotidiano). L’Associazione lamenta la...




					www.ilfattoquotidiano.it
				




A common theme is early retirement precipitated by the pandemic, combined with crap pay and strenuous working conditions that keep new workers away. Haulage companies in the US, like their UK counterparts, are calling for fewer visa restrictions. In the meantime, they are looking as far afield as South Africa to fill in their driver seats.

The response to the crisis by Matteo Salvini, as quoted in the _il Fatto Quotidiano_, is also revealing: "I am in contact with entrepreneurs and do not find staff because *they hear it is more comfortable for me to stay at home* without doing anything. On the other hand, a tool that was meant to create work creates problems and undeclared work. Staying at home for three years with 500 euros a month is an insult to those who wake up every morning and go to work for the same amount" (translated from Italian).

Apparently even within the paradise of frictionless labour movement, they can't entirely fill the gaps just by hiring cheaper labour from elsewhere.


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 24, 2021)

people not wanting to do jobs for shite money

its a universal problem and their always some right wing dick head trying to say solved the problem by cutting benifits

shocking news, the american bit is more interesting as their complicated immigration policy will put people off just like the uk atm


----------



## Badgers (Oct 24, 2021)

Thanks for this especially


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 24, 2021)

hmm now i wonder which party voted for this

Every UK MP who just voted to ALLOW water companies to continue dumping RAW SEWAGE in rivers and the sea - Carvemag.com

Tory scumbags


----------



## Badgers (Oct 24, 2021)




----------



## brogdale (Oct 24, 2021)

Badgers said:


>



Said that 6 months before Grenfell.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 24, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> hmm now i wonder which party voted for this
> 
> Every UK MP who just voted to ALLOW water companies to continue dumping RAW SEWAGE in rivers and the sea - Carvemag.com
> 
> Tory scumbags


----------



## Raheem (Oct 24, 2021)

Do you want the raw sewage in your house then? Sorry, but this is a clear Brexit benefit.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 24, 2021)

Raheem said:


> Do you want the raw sewage in your house then? Sorry, but this is a clear Brexit benefit.


We've got a shit in number ten


----------



## Raheem (Oct 24, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> We've got a shit in number ten


And wouldn't we be better off if he were poisoning fish?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 24, 2021)

Raheem said:


> And wouldn't we be better off if he were poisoning fish?


I'd prefer it if fish were poisoning him


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 24, 2021)

the great stink of 2021 


leading the world from london


----------



## Fairweather (Oct 24, 2021)

I’ve tried to bring this to the attention of the members of an angling forum that I’m on but the Tory cunt that runs the show has deleted my numerous attempts to do so.


----------



## two sheds (Oct 24, 2021)

We could all go round and have a shit in Rees Mogg's garden, show him we agree with his new policy.


----------



## Poot (Oct 24, 2021)

two sheds said:


> We could all go round and have a shit in Rees Mogg's garden, show him we agree with his new policy.


I'd be almost certain that he employs a shit-cleaner-upper amongst his staff, who's signed a contract never to divulge what's been flung/excreted into the garden.


----------



## philosophical (Oct 27, 2021)

In PMQ’s today that cunt Johnson more or less announced that he will invoke article 16.
To end the protocol he fully backed, and got elected on in 2019.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 27, 2021)

Treasury's own (OBR) official hindcast and projection on the economic cost of sovereignty:


----------



## TopCat (Oct 28, 2021)

UK boat detained by France amid fishing rights row
					

A minister says his officials are "urgently" investigating the situation surrounding the detained boat.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## ska invita (Oct 28, 2021)

its such a farce that the UK can impose restrictions on this patch - a historical anomaly


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 28, 2021)

China rations diesel amid fuel shortages
					

It is likely to contribute to the global supply chain crisis and inflation, analysts told the BBC.



					www.bbc.co.uk
				




You voted for it


----------



## bimble (Oct 28, 2021)

quite interesting to see how our trade deal with new zealand is being reported in new zealand. Basically they cant believe their luck and are baffled as to how come a country would do this to itself.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 28, 2021)

bimble said:


> quite interesting to see how our trade deal with new zealand is being reported in new zealand. Basically they cant believe their luck and are baffled as to how come a country would do this to itself.



"SaveBritishFarming"

The daft cunts voted leave.


----------



## Badgers (Oct 28, 2021)




----------



## TopCat (Oct 29, 2021)

Brexit fishing rights: what is row about and what happens next?
					

The clash between the UK and France over post-Brexit fishing arrangements has gathered pace




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## philosophical (Oct 29, 2021)

The UK is due fuck all consideration from any country in the EU.
What goes around comes around so it is said, so if the UK is cool about breaking international law (see TopCat’s fellow traveller Brandon Lewis, or the Northern Ireland protocol as potential examples), yet moans about France breaking international law, hypocritical.
I hope France tells the UK to stick it up it’s arse, and escalates hostility towards the UK as much or as little as it so chooses.
If I were able to, I would cut off electricity supplies from France to the tax dodging communities of the Channel Islands, because the Brexit vote was to leave the EU, so let leave mean leave. The UK can sort out the electricity supply itself.
It is very possible to accept the result, and then want the UK to be as fucked up as possible because of the result.


----------



## xenon (Oct 29, 2021)

The Channel islands aren’t all full of tax dodging megarich, you know. A bit weird you wishing harm on the likes of my mate and his family.


----------



## philosophical (Oct 29, 2021)

xenon said:


> The Channel islands aren’t all full of tax dodging megarich, you know. A bit weird you wishing harm on the likes of my mate and his family.


The people who voted leave are the ones who wished harm. 
I am enjoying the spectacle.
It is many mates and many families throughout the land Brexit voters wished harm to. You and your mate and his family can moan about my stance as much as they like, blame me for any harm simply because I observe the consequences of the leave vote.
Too bad.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 29, 2021)

xenon said:


> The Channel islands aren’t all full of tax dodging megarich, you know. A bit weird you wishing harm on the likes of my mate and his family.


Collateral damage.


----------



## xenon (Oct 29, 2021)

philosophical said:


> The people who voted leave are the ones who wished harm.
> I am enjoying the spectacle.
> It is many mates and many families throughout the land Brexit voters wished harm to. You and your mate and his family can moan about my stance as much as they like, blame me for any harm simply because I observe the consequences of the leave vote.
> Too bad.



You said if you could you would cut off the electricity. That is a bit more then enjoying the spectacle. That is fantasising about making the situation worse. You weirdo.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 29, 2021)

xenon said:


> You said if you could you would cut off the electricity. That is a bit more then enjoying the spectacle. That is fantasising about making the situation worse. You weirdo.


Sickboy without any lolz.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 29, 2021)

We have to be punished.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Oct 29, 2021)

Local warehouses near me are offering up to £20/hr overtime. Just saying 🤷‍♂️


----------



## Badgers (Oct 29, 2021)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> Local warehouses near me are offering up to £20/hr overtime. Just saying 🤷‍♂️


It will last past Christmas 100%


----------



## dessiato (Oct 29, 2021)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> Local warehouses near me are offering up to £20/hr overtime. Just saying 🤷‍♂️


That’s great but what’s the base rate? Also, how many hours do you have to do in order to get this rate? I once worked at a place where p/t staff only went onto o/t after they’d done 40 hours. Any hours over their contract where paid at standard rate until that 40.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 29, 2021)

TopCat said:


> We have to be punished.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Oct 29, 2021)

dessiato said:


> That’s great but what’s the base rate? Also, how many hours do you have to do in order to get this rate? I once worked at a place where p/t staff only went onto o/t after they’d done 40 hours. Any hours over their contract where paid at standard rate until that 40.



It seems that they are at least £10/hr for daytime and £12 for night, although I've seen higher - up £13/hr daytime and £15/hr for night shifts. I've also seen one place offering a sign-up bonus of £3000. Overtime was anything over 40 hours.


----------



## two sheds (Oct 29, 2021)

Apparently Co-op and others are paying £300 for a 10-hour shift in the south east, including for delivery vans. As noted though, not sure how long this is going to last.


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 29, 2021)

Funnily enough I just picked up my prescription from the farmacia and get charged the same as the Portuguese.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 29, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Funnily enough I just picked up my prescription from the farmacia and get charged the same as the Portuguese.


You're resident?


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 29, 2021)

brogdale said:


> You're resident?


Claro.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 29, 2021)

xenon said:


> The Channel islands aren’t all full of tax dodging megarich, you know. A bit weird you wishing harm on the likes of my mate and his family.


i note the channel islands weren't part of the eu EU referendum: What do the Channel Islands think?


----------



## philosophical (Oct 29, 2021)

xenon said:


> You said if you could you would cut off the electricity. That is a bit more then enjoying the spectacle. That is fantasising about making the situation worse. You weirdo.


Not quite. I added that the UK can supply the electricity.


----------



## bimble (Oct 29, 2021)

I don’t know where you get the energy from to wish for hellfire and damnation to rain down upon brexit island. I am surrounded here by people who have voted Tory forever but don’t have it in me to cackle with glee every time I walk past the food bank.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 29, 2021)

bimble said:


> I don’t know where you get the energy from to wish for hellfire and damnation to rain down upon brexit island. I am surrounded here by people who have voted Tory forever but don’t have it in me to cackle with glee every time I walk past the food bank.


you'll never be a proper remainer as long as you have that defeatist attitude


----------



## MrCurry (Oct 29, 2021)

philosophical said:


> In PMQ’s today that cunt Johnson more or less announced that he will invoke article 16.
> To end the protocol he fully backed, and got elected on in 2019.


Will this happen I wonder, or is it just fighting talk?  Would become a massive issue if he does light that particular touchpaper.


----------



## dessiato (Oct 29, 2021)

philosophical said:


> In PMQ’s today that cunt Johnson more or less announced that he will invoke article 16.
> To end the protocol he fully backed, and got elected on in 2019.


Just another load of crap from Johnson, sadly nothing new.


----------



## Yossarian (Oct 30, 2021)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> Local warehouses near me are offering up to £20/hr overtime. Just saying 🤷‍♂️



What's that got to do with Brexit?

Wages are going up all over the place because of COVID-related labour issues so there's no need to give Boris Johnson's government a reach-around.

It's a real fucking shame that the conditions in which workers are in a strong position against the bosses have coincided with the current bunch of cunts being in power - too many people might get the impression that there's a connection between wages going up and having a right-wing anti-immigration government.


----------



## Badgers (Oct 30, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> What's that got to do with Brexit?
> 
> Wages are going up all over the place because of COVID-related labour issues so there's no need to give Boris Johnson's government a reach-around.
> 
> It's a real fucking shame that the conditions in which workers are in a strong position against the bosses have coincided with the current bunch of cunts being in power - too many people might get the impression that there's a connection between wages going up and having a right-wing anti-immigration government.


Am not seeing many of these £20+ per hour wages on any job boards 🤔


----------



## brogdale (Oct 30, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Am not seeing many of these £20+ per hour wages on any job boards 🤔


Just take off those brown tinted remoaniac goggles and you'll start to believe.


----------



## andysays (Oct 30, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> What's that got to do with Brexit?
> 
> Wages are going up all over the place because of COVID-related labour issues so there's no need to give Boris Johnson's government a reach-around.
> 
> It's a real fucking shame that the conditions in which workers are in a strong position against the bosses have coincided with the current bunch of cunts being in power - too many people might get the impression that there's a connection between wages going up and having a right-wing anti-immigration government.


If you can face going back through the thread (I can't, TBH), you will find plenty of examples of posters swearing blind that the labour issues have nothing to do with Covid and are entirely Brexit related.

The reality, I suggest, is that they are a combination of the two things coming together.


----------



## Badgers (Oct 30, 2021)

andysays said:


> If you can face going back through the thread (I can't, TBH), you will find plenty of examples of posters swearing blind that the labour issues have nothing to do with Covid and are entirely Brexit related.
> 
> The reality, I suggest, is that they are a combination of the two things coming together.


About 60% Brexit and 40% Covid I read

Will dig out the source


----------



## Chilli.s (Oct 30, 2021)

30% Brexit, 30% Covid, 30% decade of austerity, 10% panic money grab


----------



## ska invita (Oct 30, 2021)

this seems relevant - video starts at the right point 2 minutes in



just a short 1 minute skit
march them off the cliffs of dover and wages go up!


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 30, 2021)

Has the empty shelf issue abated or have people just become immune to it and given up taking photos?


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 30, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Has the empty shelf issue abated or have people just become immune to it and given up taking photos?


They’re getting harder to find. Petrol stations are back to normal too, much to the disappointment of some. 😉


----------



## Yossarian (Oct 30, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Has the empty shelf issue abated or have people just become immune to it and given up taking photos?



Is living in an EU country still better than living in Brexit Britain?


----------



## TopCat (Oct 30, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> Is living in an EU country still better than living in Brexit Britain?


Legal weed and cheaper beer.


----------



## bimble (Oct 30, 2021)

Lol. Great timing.


----------



## gosub (Oct 30, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> They’re getting harder to find. Petrol stations are back to normal too, much to the disappointment of some. 😉


I thought they'd just introduced petrol rationing in China


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 30, 2021)

gosub said:


> I thought they'd just introduced petrol rationing in China


China rations diesel amid fuel shortages


----------



## Badgers (Oct 30, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> They’re getting harder to find. Petrol stations are back to normal too, much to the disappointment of some. 😉


Still lots round Hertfordshire. Not empty shelves but limited choice. Like I said before nobody is going hungry (apart from those fucked by the #ToryScum of course) but finding 20 shelves of potatoes but barely any greens is shit. Also the shelf life of products is really bad. Got some 'decent' garlic from a soopermarket last week and both cloves are rotting inside.

It is fun to laugh at remoaners and poor people for having less choice and worse quality fresh food isn't it?

Rivers of blood replaced by rivers of sewage #Shitehall should make the racist leavers happy so that is good 

Still, Sunlit Uplands can't be far off?


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 30, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Still lots round Hertfordshire. Not empty shelves but limited choice. Like I said before nobody is going hungry (apart from those fucked by the #ToryScum of course) but finding 20 shelves of potatoes but barely any greens is shit. Also the shelf life of products is really bad. Got some 'decent' garlic from a soopermarket last week and both cloves are rotting inside.
> 
> It is fun to laugh at remoaners and poor people for having less choice and worse quality fresh food isn't it?
> 
> ...


So you’re saying it’s better than it was?


----------



## Badgers (Oct 30, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> So you’re saying it’s better than it was?


About 7.9% better


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 30, 2021)

Badgers said:


> About 7.9% better


I reckon it’s at least 10.4% but good news anyway.

Rejoice, Badgers!


----------



## Badgers (Oct 30, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> I reckon it’s at least 10.4% but good news anyway.
> 
> Rejoice, Badgers!


The way things are going it is 104% certain to get better.


----------



## andysays (Oct 30, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Has the empty shelf issue abated or have people just become immune to it and given up taking photos?


There were some empty shelves in the Co op in Manor House yesterday morning when I went in to buy my breakfast.

I couldn't get any freshly baked croissants and instead had to make do with a packet of crisps and a box of mini Bakewell tarts.

According to a conversation I overheard between a couple of staff it was a computer issue which meant they couldn't reorder, but that's probably a lie from Brexit supporting Co op management desperate to hide the truth


----------



## two sheds (Oct 30, 2021)

andysays said:


> I couldn't get any freshly baked croissants and instead had to make do with a packet of crisps and a box of mini Bakewell tarts.


I feel your pain brother


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 30, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> Is living in an EU country still better than living in Brexit Britain?


When was the last time you benchmarked this comparison?


----------



## dessiato (Oct 30, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> Is living in an EU country still better than living in Brexit Britain?


Hell yes! I’ll not choose to go back. Even here in Galicia which doesn’t have the weather etc of Andalucia it’s better than the U.K.


----------



## Badgers (Oct 31, 2021)




----------



## MrSki (Oct 31, 2021)

Who is going to want to buy British fish when they are full of shit?


----------



## two sheds (Oct 31, 2021)

.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Oct 31, 2021)

MrSki said:


> Who is going to want to buy British fish when they are full of shit?



a lot of people seem happy to vote for politicians who are full of shit...


----------



## brogdale (Oct 31, 2021)

MrSki said:


> Who is going to want to buy British fish when they are full of shit?


----------



## Raheem (Oct 31, 2021)

brogdale said:


> View attachment 295003


I've never been to Whitstable, but would it be fair to count this as a minor Brexit benefit?


----------



## two sheds (Oct 31, 2021)

Couple of friends who live there, hope they didn't partake.


----------



## bimble (Oct 31, 2021)

ha. Good thing that we can't legally export any of our delicious shit-fed bivalves to the EU now anyway, that would have been a bit awkward.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 31, 2021)

Raheem said:


> I've never been to Whitstable, but would it be fair to count this as a minor Brexit benefit?


I think you're on to something there; poisoning the entitled DFL cunts is all win/win, but I'm really not happy with the effect of all that shit on the ecosystems of  N. Kent beaches & marshes.
Tough call.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 31, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Couple of friends who live there, hope they didn't partake.


Locals don't go into that that place.


----------



## two sheds (Oct 31, 2021)

Good point. I think they also live below sea level so probably have other things on their minds.


----------



## bimble (Oct 31, 2021)

Raheem said:


> I've never been to Whitstable, but would it be fair to count this as a minor Brexit benefit?


I have and yes.


----------



## dessiato (Oct 31, 2021)

I used to love going to Whitstable for oysters. I'll not be eating them there again


----------



## bimble (Oct 31, 2021)

The rivers of shit thing, is it really totally brexit related?
Are other countries not pumping magnificent quantities of raw sewage into their beaches and rivers day and night due to covid or something, is it just us?
A very short google suggests that England is number one in the world for privatising its water supply. I think that is probably relevant too.


----------



## dessiato (Oct 31, 2021)

bimble said:


> The rivers of shit thing, is it really totally brexit related?
> Are other countries not pumping magnificent quantities of raw sewage into their beaches and rivers day and night due to covid or something, is it just us?
> A very short google suggests that England is number one in the world for privatising its water supply. I think that is probably relevant too.


When I go fishing one thing that strikes me is how clean the rivers and beaches are. The same cannot be said for the UK.


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 31, 2021)

It's far better in Spain.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 31, 2021)

bimble said:


> The rivers of shit thing, is it really totally brexit related?
> Are other countries not pumping magnificent quantities of raw sewage into their beaches and rivers day and night due to covid or something, is it just us?
> A very short google suggests that England is number one in the world for privatising its water supply. I think that is probably relevant too.


I was struck by the stream of sewage which for me ruined the beach at ribeira grande


----------



## Chilli.s (Oct 31, 2021)

It has taken years for uk water quality to rise to what it was last year, now the green light has been given to water companies to tip untreated sewage into rivers when flooding occurs they are going to do it more and more.

the EU controls were a good thing


----------



## bimble (Oct 31, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> It's far better in Spain.


You see that word 'illegally' in yr headline there from Spain in 2019?
Its not illegal in Great Britian now, its totally fine, government approved, no problem to pump raw sewage into rivers and beaches, since a couple of weeks ago. Thats why people are talking about the rivers of shit.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Oct 31, 2021)

bimble said:


> The rivers of shit thing, is it really totally brexit related?
> Are other countries not pumping magnificent quantities of raw sewage into their beaches and rivers day and night due to covid or something, is it just us?
> A very short google suggests that England is number one in the world for privatising its water supply. I think that is probably relevant too.



It's partly down to the HGV shortage and partly down to massive quantities of rain and decades of under investing in literally sorting shit out.


----------



## Chilli.s (Oct 31, 2021)

In the past water companies were required to report if they had to tip it in rivers, they don't have to report that anymore   (as far as I can tell)


----------



## bimble (Oct 31, 2021)

the gov.uk website is pretty clear on what they think the cause is. "Unavoidable supply chain failure"  as Part Of Brexit


----------



## Artaxerxes (Oct 31, 2021)

One of the issues that's always struck me about living here, and has gotten worse as I've gotten older as power is held less and less accountable, is just how many things we've invented to protect us long term are criminally neglected or underfunded or left toothless.

I can't think of any agency that is funded anywhere near adequately, huge amounts of the health and safety industry is short on staff and kit and that's replicated everywhere, from tax to industry inspectors. Frequently after a hard battle in the early to mid 20th century to ensure they actually exist.

There's just no long term commitment to maintaining standards or funding, central government cuts again and again and again. God help us now we've left the EU and the eager fucks in power are keen to cut red tape.


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 31, 2021)

bimble said:


> You see that word 'illegally' in yr headline there from Spain in 2019?
> Its not illegal in Great Britian now, its totally fine, government approved, no problem to pump raw sewage into rivers and beaches, since a couple of weeks ago. Thats why people are talking about the rivers of shit.


More a comment on Des's fishing in beautifully clean Spanish rivers and sea.









						Anti-pollution protests in Spain after thousands of dead fish wash up on lagoon
					

Some 20 tonnes of dead fish have washed up on the shores of one of Europe's largest saltwater lagoons in Spain, sparking protests against deteriorating environmental conditions while local prosecutors opened an investigation.




					www.reuters.com
				











						Can Spain fix its worst ecological crisis by making a lagoon a legal person?
					

Murcia residents hope to protect the polluted Mar Menor, Europe’s largest saltwater lagoon, with a change in legal status




					www.theguardian.com
				











						How irresponsible agriculture has poisoned Spain's water resources
					

Spain faces a pressing problem concerning its groundwater reserves that affects the drinking water supply of towns and cities.




					www.euronews.com


----------



## bimble (Oct 31, 2021)

Thanks Spymaster .
So what if our government just voted to make the dumping of raw shit totally legal and penalty-free because of what they say are unavoidable brexit-related issues, you went and googled some random things about pollution in spain so its all good. cheers!


----------



## ska invita (Oct 31, 2021)

brogdale said:


> I think you're on to something there; poisoning the entitled DFL cunts is all win/win, but I'm really not happy with the effect of all that shit on the ecosystems of  N. Kent beaches & marshes.
> Tough call.


What is DFL?


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 31, 2021)

bimble said:


> Thanks Spymaster .
> So what if our government just voted to make the dumping of raw shit totally legal and penalty-free because of what they say are unavoidable brexit-related issues, you went and googled some random things about pollution in spain so its all good. cheers!



It seems I've enlightened you inadvertently. You're welcome!


----------



## bimble (Oct 31, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> It seems I've enlightened you inadvertently. You're welcome!


tbh the legalisation of shit dumping all over the land is where i lose my sense of humour,  its a fucking shame, its properly disgusting. The gov calling it an  'unavoidable' consequence of brexit pisses me off. I like oysters, and voles.


----------



## two sheds (Oct 31, 2021)

I've never tried voles  

but I agree with you on this.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 31, 2021)

ska invita said:


> What is DFL?


daaan from London


----------



## dessiato (Oct 31, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> More a comment on Des's fishing in beautifully clean Spanish rivers and sea.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Interesting reading. There’s certainly problems here in Spain. The Cantabrian Sea, where i fish, is, as far as I can tell, clean. You can see the fish swimming around ignoring the bait.


----------



## ska invita (Oct 31, 2021)

brogdale said:


> daaan from London



and just what is wrong with going from London to visit Whitstable hmmm?


----------



## Raheem (Oct 31, 2021)

Think dfl is an obscure and esoteric football reference.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 31, 2021)

ska invita said:


> and just what is wrong with going from London to visit Whitstable hmmm?


Nothing; it’s just that so many of them won’t stop at buying a Oysters...they want the houses and flats as well.


----------



## Badgers (Nov 1, 2021)

__





						Brexit is harming the UK economy, say 44% of voters | Brexit | The Guardian
					






					amp-theguardian-com.cdn.ampproject.org


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 1, 2021)

bimble said:


> You see that word 'illegally' in yr headline there from Spain in 2019?
> Its not illegal in Great Britian now, its totally fine, government approved, no problem to pump raw sewage into rivers and beaches, since a couple of weeks ago. Thats why people are talking about the rivers of shit.



They are doing a U-turn on that.









						Stir up the waters: how campaigners forced the UK to U-turn on raw sewage
					

Social media outrage and viral footage of effluent discharging into the sea forced the government to change course




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## TopCat (Nov 1, 2021)

How many here bought shares when they sold off water?


----------



## ska invita (Nov 1, 2021)

cupid_stunt said:


> They are doing a U-turn on that.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


'
...or more accurately they've said they will consider doing a u-turn. Nothing has actually changed and once the news cycle moves on there is no certainty laws will change accordingly.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 1, 2021)

TopCat said:


> How many here bought shares when they sold off water?


Very few, I’d imagine; most share ownership of the water corporations is foreign, institutional and tax haven based. Some on here will ‘own’ shares at some remove through their pension schemes eg the U.K. universities scheme owns 2% of all U.K. water shares.


----------



## Badgers (Nov 1, 2021)

TopCat said:


> How many here bought shares when they sold off water?


No


----------



## Chilli.s (Nov 1, 2021)

TopCat said:


> How many here bought shares when they sold off water?


I don't think we can criticise that too much, the buying of dead cert shares was basically a bribe. I would have had some of that free cash too had I been able to.  It was just a political ploy, the ideology behind it always was flawed. Pissing away the country's assets for political gain


----------



## two sheds (Nov 1, 2021)

True enough, I wanted none of it though for any of the sell-offs.


----------



## Chilli.s (Nov 1, 2021)

Of course insider dealing has only been illegal in the uk since 1980, before then it was a commonplace way of the moneyed class getting something for nothing. Trying to make the stock market appealing to lower classes was why these share give aways were used, and it worked I suppose.


----------



## bimble (Nov 1, 2021)

It’s mad, I can’t remember now where I saw it but apparently the amount of money given to shareholders since privatisation is a good match for the amount of investment it would have required to get the whole system to standard.


----------



## Chilli.s (Nov 1, 2021)

bimble said:


> It’s mad, I can’t remember now where I saw it but apparently the amount of money given to shareholders since privatisation is a good match for the amount of investment it would have required to get the whole system to standard.


Yeah it's insane.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Nov 1, 2021)




----------



## brogdale (Nov 1, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


>



Yanks "in town" as well....good timing.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Nov 1, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Yanks "in town" as well....good timing.



Great impression of the UK at this important time, sewage seas, garbage strikes, trains absolutely fucked and Norn on fire.

#outintotheworld


----------



## brogdale (Nov 1, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Great impression of the UK at this important time, sewage seas, garbage strikes, trains absolutely fucked and Norn on fire.
> 
> #outintotheworld


They know what they're doing.


----------



## two sheds (Nov 1, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Great impression of the UK at this important time, sewage seas, garbage strikes, trains absolutely fucked and Norn on fire.
> 
> #outintotheworld


and fish


----------



## sleaterkinney (Nov 1, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Great impression of the UK at this important time, sewage seas, garbage strikes, trains absolutely fucked and Norn on fire.
> 
> #outintotheworld


Voting intentions:

Conservatives +3


----------



## philosophical (Nov 1, 2021)

Criminals have caused this, absolutely nothing to do with the cunts who voted leave.









						Newtownards: Bus hijacked by masked men and set on fire
					

Nichola Mallon says it is understood the attackers referenced the Northern Ireland Protocol.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## bimble (Nov 2, 2021)

very brexity chicken now available at Morrisons.


----------



## TopCat (Nov 2, 2021)

Where does EU pepper grow?


----------



## ska invita (Nov 2, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Where does EU pepper grow?


who cares if it exists, the important thing is we arent eating that foreign muck


----------



## TopCat (Nov 2, 2021)

Morrisons apologises for ‘non-EU salt and pepper’ chicken label
					

Incident that prompted threat of boycott is latest front in Brexit culture war on supermarket shelves




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## 8ball (Nov 2, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Morrisons apologises for ‘non-EU salt and pepper’ chicken label
> 
> 
> Incident that prompted threat of boycott is latest front in Brexit culture war on supermarket shelves
> ...



Every season is silly season.


----------



## TopCat (Nov 2, 2021)

ska invita said:


> who cares if it exists, the important thing is we arent eating that foreign muck


You leading the boycott campaign with bimble? 

I would guess that most remainers prefer Waitrose anyway.


----------



## TopCat (Nov 2, 2021)

One customer, David Bright, said: “I’m done with shopping @Morrisons ... I can live with union flags on bananas, but the gratuitous slight on the EU is too much.”


----------



## TopCat (Nov 2, 2021)

Others liked the label because it was divisive. “Have to say a very well done to Morrisons, this has upset all the right people.”


----------



## two sheds (Nov 2, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Morrisons apologises for ‘non-EU salt and pepper’ chicken label
> 
> 
> Incident that prompted threat of boycott is latest front in Brexit culture war on supermarket shelves
> ...


boycott threatened


----------



## TopCat (Nov 2, 2021)

One customer described the union-flag on Mornflake porridge oats as “very unpleasant and quite intimidating”.









						Creamy Superfast Oats – Mornflake - Mighty Oats
					

We carefully cut the oats into three before gently rolling them. The smaller oat flakes absorb the water or milk quicker, making them cook superfast, perfect for a smooth and creamy porridge.




					www.mornflake.com
				




It's tiny!


----------



## TopCat (Nov 2, 2021)

It's hardly strength through Oi!


----------



## bimble (Nov 2, 2021)

Are there really union jacks on bananas?


----------



## TopCat (Nov 2, 2021)

bimble said:


> Are there really union jacks on bananas?


Whats your guess?


----------



## two sheds (Nov 2, 2021)

the answer depends on whether they were bendy bananas.


----------



## TopCat (Nov 2, 2021)

__





						Google Image Result for https://ind.ie/blog/british-government-goes-bananas/images/banana.jpg
					





					www.google.com


----------



## Raheem (Nov 2, 2021)

bimble said:


> Are there really union jacks on bananas?


Think the components mainly come from places like Belize, but they are assembled at a plant near Warrington.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 2, 2021)




----------



## two sheds (Nov 2, 2021)

__





						Google Image Result for https://ind.ie/blog/british-government-goes-bananas/images/banana.jpg
					





					www.google.com
				




rotten british banana


----------



## gosub (Nov 2, 2021)

Raheem said:


> Think the components mainly come from places like Belize, but they are assembled at a plant near Warrington.


pn a plant rather that at a plant surely


----------



## gosub (Nov 2, 2021)

TopCat said:


> One customer described the union-flag on Mornflake porridge oats as “very unpleasant and quite intimidating”.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Its porridge I find unpleasnat


----------



## Raheem (Nov 2, 2021)

Think it has been in the so-called interesting facts thread that all commercial bananas are of British heritage.


----------



## T & P (Nov 2, 2021)

It's great to see that the relentless push towards a (much more than before) nationalistic hard-right society that Brexit has undeniably caused is amusing to people, especially those who are left wing. A small price to pay to give the big bad EU a black eye, clearly


----------



## TopCat (Nov 2, 2021)

T & P said:


> It's great to see that the relentless push towards a (much more than before) nationalistic hard-right society that Brexit has undeniably caused is amusing to people, especially those who are left wing. A small price to pay to give the big bad EU a black eye, clearly


This is just bollocks all the way through?


----------



## Raheem (Nov 2, 2021)

TopCat said:


> This is just bollocks all the way through?


Exactly like post-Brexit sausages.


----------



## TopCat (Nov 2, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


>


Sweet and crunchy?


----------



## T & P (Nov 2, 2021)

TopCat said:


> This is just bollocks all the way through?


Yes, it is bollocks. Brexit has in fact caused British society to become more tolerant of foreigners, more open minded, more left-wing, and all around a much more pleasant place to live since Brexit. I don't know what I was thinking.


----------



## 19sixtysix (Nov 2, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


>


Ripe for a report to trading standards


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 2, 2021)

19sixtysix said:


> Ripe for a report to trading standards


it'll be months if not years before they attend to it


----------



## TopCat (Nov 2, 2021)

T & P said:


> Yes, it is bollocks. Brexit has in fact caused British society to become more tolerant of foreigners, more open minded, more left-wing, and all around a much more pleasant place to live since Brexit. I don't know what I was thinking.


You are still all over the place.


----------



## Badgers (Nov 2, 2021)

two sheds said:


> boycott threatened


I was already avoiding them due to their appalling new owners


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 2, 2021)

Badgers said:


> I was already avoiding them due to their appalling new owners


i read that as already avoiding them due to their appalling new omens and i was surprised you'd turned to soothsaying


----------



## two sheds (Nov 2, 2021)

yep I'm watching what happens with selloffs and wages and things - they took over a Cornish company a few months ago and all the wages went up by a fair amount.


----------



## Raheem (Nov 2, 2021)

19sixtysix said:


> Ripe for a report to trading standards


Probably overripe by now.


----------



## bimble (Nov 3, 2021)

i do find this funny, maybe in an evil cackling way not sure. the bit about how they wont be able to sell it as British Pork after its been on a journey to Europe to find a butcher is the best bit.








						Meat carcasses sent to EU for butchering amid UK worker shortage
					

Great Britain’s beef producers export to Ireland before reimporting, while pork processors consider the Netherlands




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## 8ball (Nov 3, 2021)

bimble said:


> i do find this funny, maybe in an evil cackling way not sure. the bit about how they wont be able to sell it as British Pork after its been on a journey to Europe to find a butcher is the best bit.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



"Cosmopolitan-Citizen-Of-Nowhere-Petty-Bourgeousie Pork"


----------



## TopCat (Nov 3, 2021)

Lots of bone in pork appearing in the shops at good prices. Rarely got big lumps bone in in the likes of Morrisons before but you do now.


----------



## Badgers (Nov 6, 2021)




----------



## Badgers (Nov 6, 2021)




----------



## andysays (Nov 6, 2021)

Chris Patten, John Major, whoever next?

Do we know if the ghost of Ted Heath has posted on Twitter recently?


----------



## Badgers (Nov 6, 2021)

> The UK Government proposed no measurable way to assess the success of Brexit, according to documents seen by Insider.











						The UK Government admitted it has no way to measure if Brexit is a success. Critics say it is a smokescreen for its failure.
					

Documents seen by Insider showed that, unlike with other UK policy priorities, the government suggested no measurable metrics for Brexit's success.




					www.businessinsider.com
				




Strange that ^ as a lot of the Brexit voters seem to have no problem measuring the success and Sunlit Uplands 🙄


----------



## seeformiles (Nov 6, 2021)

Yesterday Mrs SFM asked me to pick up a nice bottle of wine from the supermarket. For the first time I saw huge gaps on the shelves where the French wine normally sits.


----------



## The39thStep (Nov 6, 2021)

andysays said:


> Chris Patten, John Major, whoever next?
> 
> Do we know if the ghost of Ted Heath has posted on Twitter recently?


If they are pro EU/anti Brexit  any old shit will do


----------



## Badgers (Nov 7, 2021)




----------



## sleaterkinney (Nov 7, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Lots of bone in pork appearing in the shops at good prices. Rarely got big lumps bone in in the likes of Morrisons before but you do now.


No butchers.


----------



## Chilli.s (Nov 8, 2021)

Badgers said:


>



Lying scum cunt


----------



## Maggot (Nov 8, 2021)

UK’s Brexit losses more than 178 times bigger than trade deal gains
					

Exclusive: All trade deals combined worth less than 50p per person a year, analysis of government figures shows




					www.independent.co.uk


----------



## Badgers (Nov 8, 2021)

Maggot said:


> UK’s Brexit losses more than 178 times bigger than trade deal gains
> 
> 
> Exclusive: All trade deals combined worth less than 50p per person a year, analysis of government figures shows
> ...





> Mr Johnson has boasted of the deals creating a “new dawn” and representing “global Britain at its best” – but just two of the dozens announced since the UK left the EU are expected to have any measurable economic impact at all



More lies from #ToryScum Disgraced Prime Minister de Pfeffel Johnson  

Brexit has been a lie from the start. Sadly Brexit is being clinged onto by the leave voters as a victory and is the only thing keeping him in power.


----------



## existentialist (Nov 8, 2021)

Badgers said:


> More lies from #ToryScum Disgraced Prime Minister de Pfeffel Johnson
> 
> Brexit has been a lie from the start. Sadly Brexit is being clinged onto by the leave voters as a victory and is the only thing keeping him in power.


TBF, Brexiteers can't really do much other than see the whole thing as an unmitigated win. To consider it otherwise would be to introduce some cracks in the circular argument that it was a Thoroughly Good Thing, and that would inevitably result in the whole mental edifice collapsing.

I'd like to think that the Remain argument is somewhat more nuanced - most people I talk to about the EU definitely don't think it's wonderful or perfect, but feel that a better approach would have been to continue to work from within the EU to improve it. Whether they're right or not, there is at least scope for movement, rather than the utterly fixed picture that the pro-Brexit constituency generally tends to present.


----------



## Badgers (Nov 8, 2021)

existentialist said:


> TBF, Brexiteers can't really do much other than see the whole thing as an unmitigated win. To consider it otherwise would be to introduce some cracks in the circular argument that it was a Thoroughly Good Thing, and that would inevitably result in the whole mental edifice collapsing.


IT WOULD HAVE BEEN WORSE UNDER CORBYN 

Is one I hear a lot 🙄 despite them not having any sensible reasons why.


----------



## Serge Forward (Nov 8, 2021)

I've had that conversation...

"Why do you think it would have been worse under Corbyn?"
"It's obvious... it just _would_!"


----------



## existentialist (Nov 8, 2021)

Badgers said:


> IT WOULD HAVE BEEN WORSE UNDER CORBYN
> 
> Is one I hear a lot 🙄 despite them not having any sensible reasons why.


I think that, when someone has to invent hypotheticals to support their argument, the argument is probably lost.


----------



## Badgers (Nov 8, 2021)

Serge Forward said:


> I've had that conversation...
> 
> "Why do you think it would have been worse under Corbyn?"
> "It's obvious... it just _would_!"


_The country would be bankrupt_ 

_He hates Jews

He is a communist_ 

They struggle to find anything wrong with how Brexit is going. If anything they are putting more blame on the EU as the corrupt government propaganda aimed to.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 8, 2021)

Badgers said:


> IT WOULD HAVE BEEN WORSE UNDER CORBYN
> 
> Is one I hear a lot 🙄 despite them not having any sensible reasons why.


do you throw back, what, worse than it was under theresa may?


----------



## gosub (Nov 8, 2021)

Badgers said:


> IT WOULD HAVE BEEN WORSE UNDER CORBYN
> 
> Is one I hear a lot 🙄 despite them not having any sensible reasons why.


Well, Corbyn  couldn't stop Starmer et al voting down May's deal. And the subequent election Labour's policy was to negotiate a better deal and then campaign against it - which doesn't sound that sensible


----------



## Badgers (Nov 8, 2021)

gosub said:


> Well, Corbyn  couldn't stop Starmer et al voting down May's deal. And the subequent election Labour's policy was to negotiate a better deal and then campaign against it - which doesn't sound that sensible


Compared to the current outcomes?


----------



## gosub (Nov 8, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Compared to the current outcomes?


The current position being the government deciding it doesn't like the deal it negotiated and talking up walking away....I see your point.


----------



## Chilli.s (Nov 8, 2021)

Yeahrbut would it have been worse under the lib dems? eh? eh? answer me that eh?


(yes... probably)


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 8, 2021)

Chilli.s said:


> Yeahrbut would it have been worse under the lib dems? eh? eh? answer me that eh?
> 
> 
> (yes... probably)


everything would be worse under the lib dems. chocolate would taste like cigarette ash. tea would taste like pub slops. it'd be the 1950s but without any prospect of the 1960s. your skin would be grey and your hair a tepid beige.


----------



## Chilli.s (Nov 8, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> everything would be worse under the lib dems. chocolate would taste like cigarette ash. tea would taste like pub slops. it'd be the 1950s but without any prospect of the 1960s. your skin would be grey and your hair a tepid beige.


Sounds quite relaxing, is that their new slogan?


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 8, 2021)

Chilli.s said:


> Sounds quite relaxing, is that their new slogan?


no, they'd be doing better if they promised that


----------



## Badgers (Nov 10, 2021)

> It has previously been stated by a number of organisations that Cornwall would need to get at least £100m a year to match what it would have received if the UK had remained in the EU and Brexit had not happened.
> 
> The Government has said that Cornwall’s replacement funding will come from the new Shared Prosperity Fund (SPF) and while this is not due to start until 2022 a pilot scheme, the Community Renewal Fund, was announced to provide funding for 2021/22.
> 
> However, under this scheme local authority areas could only bid for a maximum of £3m and it was revealed last week that Cornwall will get just over £1m.












						Government gives Cornwall just £1m 'to replace EU's £100m'
					

Cornwall Council had been allowed to bid for £3m from the Community Renewal Fund but has been given just over £1m and there are fears that the Shared Prosperity Fund will not have enough to replace Cornwall's EU funding




					www.cornwalllive.com


----------



## Smangus (Nov 10, 2021)

Turkey's voting etc.


----------



## Badgers (Nov 11, 2021)




----------



## ska invita (Nov 12, 2021)

Laura K is being briefed that the Tories are almost certainly going to trigger Article 16 








						Brexit: UK looks likely to trigger Article 16 - then what?
					

An in-depth look at the likely consequences if post Brexit talks on the Northern Ireland border fail.



					www.bbc.co.uk
				




 I'm told there have been discussions about starting the process, even early next week.
Don't panic, this does not seem to have yet been resolved.
Some in government are arguing for more explanation of the case to the public before drastic action is taken.
One insider described a "reasonableness test". Another said that the UK government wanted to build an "evidence base" to demonstrate why they felt the action had to be taken, before going public.
Some of the smart money is on the bust-up not coming until December, with one government source suggesting on Thursday: "We're going to see a bit more time pass before it happens."

Whatever the moment, unless something very unexpected happens, or the negotiators and politicians on both sides have personality transplants, it seems like Article 16 will be introduced before too long.
The likely impact of the move seems less certain than whether Boris Johnson and Lord Frost take the decision.
It hasn't happened before, so there is no real precedent.
And there are different schools of thought. First, it's important to understand that triggering Article 16 is starting a dispute process.
It's not one moment, but the start of many.

One source says some Brexiteer MPs "think you trigger it and everyone starts singing Rule Britannia - no one is asking themselves what happens after you trigger".
Theoretically, the process begins with a month of intense technical talks to try to resolve the dispute.
If that doesn't work, there would probably then be an emergency meeting of EU leaders, to take the decision up to prime ministers, not just the EU Commission.
There could be different forms of restrictions on trade, specific sanctions, or they could give notice that they would tear up the whole trade agreement, which Ireland warned might happen this week.
Without getting too technical, the trigger could end up with grumpy talks dragging on over many months with lots of politicking but not much changing practically.
Both sides could, in a genuine way, join together to try to work things out.
Or the trigger could, as one observer warned, boil over into a "full scale trade war that undermines the UK and the EU's post-Covid economic recovery".

The economic consequences of that could be profound for us all, if the argument really went that far.
And what would Number 10 do in the end, if the UK didn't get what it wanted?
If, as another source suggests, Boris Johnson "triggers the process, it finds against the UK….and ultimately the European Court says you must comply - he's snookered".


----------



## Badgers (Nov 12, 2021)




----------



## brogdale (Nov 13, 2021)

Here you go remoaniacs...a genuine benefit of brexshit...





> Previously, when the UK was part of the EU, under a mechanism known as Dublin the UK could ask other EU countries to take back people they could prove had passed through safe European countries before reaching the UK.
> 
> The UK could make “take charge” requests and officials were often able to prove that asylum seekers had passed through other countries thanks to the Eurodac fingerprint database. But since Brexit the UK no longer has access to that database, so it is harder to prove definitively which other European countries small boat arrivals to the UK have previously passed through.
> 
> ...


----------



## Badgers (Nov 14, 2021)

Voters want to reverse Brexit amid shortages and EU clashes, polls show
					

‘Momentum shifting towards a majority who would now vote to rejoin the EU’ – including one in ten Leavers




					www.independent.co.uk
				






> The polls come as the economic damage from leaving the EU becomes clearer – after the Office for Budget Responsibility said GDP will fall by 4 per cent, twice the loss from the Covid pandemic.



#worldbeating and #ovenready


----------



## brogdale (Nov 14, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Voters want to reverse Brexit amid shortages and EU clashes, polls show
> 
> 
> ‘Momentum shifting towards a majority who would now vote to rejoin the EU’ – including one in ten Leavers
> ...


Giving up the pound?


----------



## Badgers (Nov 14, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Giving up the pound?


I won't miss the queen's face tbh. Also most the sterling left will be offshore soon.


----------



## andysays (Nov 16, 2021)

Workers call the shots as job vacancies boom​


> Job vacancies hit a fresh record high in October as employers continued to struggle with worker shortages, official figures show. The redundancy rate was also largely unchanged despite the end of the furlough scheme in September, making it even harder to fill empty posts. Employers report having to improve pay and benefits to attract new recruits.


----------



## ska invita (Nov 16, 2021)

happening across the US and the Eurozone too








						There are millions of jobs, but a shortage of workers: Economists explain why that's worrying
					

The pandemic has caused labor shortages all over the world at a time when demand is at a peak.




					www.cnbc.com
				








__





						Subscribe to read | Financial Times
					

News, analysis and comment from the Financial Times, the worldʼs leading global business publication




					www.ft.com


----------



## Badgers (Nov 17, 2021)




----------



## Artaxerxes (Nov 17, 2021)

Badgers said:


> View attachment 297216



"We want to be outside the EU but we don't want anything to be different"


----------



## brogdale (Nov 17, 2021)

Rank hy-pie-crisy


----------



## jakethesnake (Nov 17, 2021)

It's doing my crust in


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 17, 2021)

Badgers said:


> View attachment 297216


Spiemaster had a heart attack when he heard that


----------



## gosub (Nov 17, 2021)

Amazon may drop Visa as partner on U.S. credit card
					

(Reuters) -Amazon.com Inc is considering dropping Visa as partner on its U.S. co-branded credit card after earlier confirming it would stop accepting Visa credit cards in the United Kingdom as a dispute over payments intensified.  The e-commerce giant is in talks with several payment networks...




					finance.yahoo.com


----------



## gosub (Nov 17, 2021)

There's a lot to unpack in that not sure I'd laugh


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Nov 17, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Rank hy-pie-crisy





jakethesnake said:


> It's doing my crust in



put a (pastry) lid on it...


----------



## brogdale (Nov 17, 2021)

Puddy_Tat said:


> put a (pastry) lid on it...


But did the Confederation of British Pie-makers consult all of the steak holders?


----------



## Raheem (Nov 17, 2021)

brogdale said:


> But did the Confederation of British Pie-makers consult all of the steak holders?


If they didn't, the whole thing could mushroom.


----------



## mx wcfc (Nov 17, 2021)

gosub said:


> Amazon may drop Visa as partner on U.S. credit card
> 
> 
> (Reuters) -Amazon.com Inc is considering dropping Visa as partner on its U.S. co-branded credit card after earlier confirming it would stop accepting Visa credit cards in the United Kingdom as a dispute over payments intensified.  The e-commerce giant is in talks with several payment networks...
> ...


mrs mx got an email or text alert about that this morning.  She read it to me. We both laughed and said "that's a scam - just delete it"

10 mins later, I saw it on the telly news.  

Two monsters of international capitalism having a scrap.  😂


----------



## brogdale (Nov 17, 2021)

Raheem said:


> If they didn't, the whole thing could mushroom.


Especially as the suprastate will see the industry as fair game.


----------



## Raheem (Nov 17, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Especially as the suprastate will see the industry as fair game.


If there's any infraction, they'll probably suet.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 17, 2021)

Raheem said:


> If there's any infraction, they'll probably suet.


They'd be lawyered up to make mincemeat of the piemen, though.


----------



## Spymaster (Nov 17, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Spiemaster had a heart attack when he heard that


My immediate filling was one of woe.


----------



## krtek a houby (Nov 17, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> My immediate filling was one of woe.



You'll need the_ pie_zer jab


----------



## Artaxerxes (Nov 18, 2021)

Looking good lads.


----------



## ska invita (Nov 18, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Looking good lads.



From the end of 2022, British holidaymakers will need to pay a fee to simply step foot in the Schengen Zone.

The European Travel Information and Authorisation System (ETIAS) is due to be rolled out next year. The visa-waiver scheme means all third country nationals, including those from the UK, must fill in a form and pay a fee in order to travel to the EU. 

The new document adds another step to the growing list of pre-holiday admin, which now includes proof of vaccine certification, testing requirements, and possible quarantine, depending on your destination.

So what is the ETIAS, how much does it cost, and when will it start? Below, we answer all your questions on the new scheme and how it will affect you.

What is the ETIAS and how much does it cost?​The ETIAS is a visa-waiver scheme, similar to the ESTA system in the United States. Now the United Kingdom is considered a third country after Brexit, British travellers going to Schengen Area countries will have to pay a €7 ETIAS fee before travel.

Which countries will I need an ETIAS to visit?​All Schengen countries, so: Austria, Belgium, the Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Iceland, Italy, Latvia, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, the Netherlands, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden and Switzerland.

Will I need an ETIAS to visit Ireland?​No. Since Ireland is not part of the Schengen Area, you will not need an ETIAS to enter Ireland.

When does it start?​The ETIAS scheme was supposed to come in from January 2021, but European authorities have delayed the launch date. It is expected to be phased in from early 2022 and then to become fully operational by “the end of 2022”.

Can I get one now?​No. There are a number of official-looking websites containing information about ETIAS, but it is best to wait until the scheme officially launches on the European Commission website.

Has this come in because of Brexit?​Yes and no. The scheme has been in the pipeline since 2016, and will apply to nationals from 63 countries including the USA, Australia and Canada. The ETIAS was not introduced because of Brexit, although because the UK left the European Union, British citizens are now considered to be third country nationals and therefore will need to apply for an ETIAS.

Is the ETIAS authorisation a visa?​No. It is a visa-waiver scheme. This means there is no need to go to a consulate to make an application, and considerably less information will be required during the application process. Nationals from some countries will still need to apply for a visa to enter the European Union.

How will I pay?​Applicants will be able to pay for their ETIAS via an official website and/or app, yet to be launched. 

Does everyone have to pay?​According to the European Commission advice page, the €7 fee is required for applicants aged between 18 and 70. Those aged under 18 or over 70 will be exempt from paying the fee.

How long does the ETIAS form last?​The ETIAS approval will last for three years, or until your passport expires, at which point you will need to apply for a new one.

How long will it take to complete?​The ETIAS application will take no more than 10 minutes to complete. It is suggested that the automated approval will be communicated “within minutes” of payment, via email.

What do I need to complete it?​You will need a travel document (passport, or equivalent), and you will be asked to provide basic personal information such as your address, email address, full name, job status, and so on.

Is there a chance my application will be rejected?​The European Commission says that it estimates more that 95 per cent of applications will be successful. You may be rejected if you are using a travel document reported as stolen, if you pose a security or immigration risk, if you pose an epidemic risk, or if there is reasonable doubt about the authenticity of the information provided.


When verifying your information the system will automatically cross-check against Interpol databases, Europol data and the Schengen Information System among others. 

If you have a clean criminal record, a legitimate travel document and have not previously broken any immigration rules, you can expect your application to go through without a hitch.

Will I have to attend an interview?​No. Only a very small number of applications will have to attend in-person interviews, if their application raises any issues.

Do other countries have similar charges?​The USA has a similar process called the ESTA. This costs $14, and in most cases comes through in a matter of minutes.

What other changes to travel have occurred following Brexit?​The ETIAS is one in a number of changes to have come in, since the UK left the European Union.

British travellers can only spend 90 days in Europe over any 180-day period. This means that in any year, the maximum number of days you can spend in the EU is 180 days.

There is also confusion over passport expiry dates. The EU puts a 10-year limit on the overall validity of a British passport (or, to be precise, nine years and nine months after the date it was issued). But some British passports have a few extra months added to their expiry date. Some travellers have been caught out by this rule, so be sure to check in good time before you travel.

There are also new limits on how much alcohol and tobacco you can bring into the UK. The new limits are 42 litres of beer, 18 litres of still wine, four litres of spirits and nine litres of sparkling wine. For tobacco, the limit is 200 cigarettes.

Some phone operators are scrapping free data roaming in Europe, and bringing a pet into the continent has become trickier business. It is also worth checking what documentation is required to drive in your destination. See our full explainer for more information.


----------



## Spymaster (Nov 18, 2021)

So it takes 10 minutes, cost 7 euros, and lasts for 3 years?


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 18, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> So it takes 10 minutes, cost 7 euros, and lasts for 3 years?


Such an imposition I know


----------



## ska invita (Nov 18, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> So it takes 10 minutes, cost 7 euros, and lasts for 3 years?


Yes


----------



## Chemical needs (Nov 18, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> So it takes 10 minutes, cost 7 euros, and lasts for 3 years?


What, brexit? Nah, I think you have some of the numbers and units mixed up.


----------



## two sheds (Nov 18, 2021)

Chemical needs said:


> What, brexit? Nah, I think you have some of the numbers and units mixed up.


3 minutes, 10 euros and 7 years


----------



## Chemical needs (Nov 18, 2021)

Maybe the decimal points are in the wrong place too?


----------



## Yossarian (Nov 18, 2021)

Chemical needs said:


> Maybe the decimal points are in the wrong place too?



Probably a mistake converting from imperial time measurements.


----------



## Flavour (Nov 18, 2021)

nobody wants british pies in europe anyway i can't imagine that trade being worth more than say, the average london semi-detached, annually


----------



## Spymaster (Nov 18, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Yes



Bovvered


----------



## two sheds (Nov 18, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> So it takes 10 minutes, cost 7 euros, and lasts for 3 years?


Fuck of a better deal than buying the Telegraph.


----------



## TopCat (Nov 18, 2021)

‘Families are desperate’: an au pair agent on life without EU workers
					

Jamie Shackell used to place 500 young people with British families every year. She hasn’t matched any since December – and some working parents are being forced to cut their hours




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Raheem (Nov 18, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Fuck of a better deal than buying the Telegraph.


Plus, paying a bit extra for foreign travel should probably count as offsetting, so we can all carry on eating lamb chops. We're happy, the EU is happy and Greta's happy.


----------



## The39thStep (Nov 18, 2021)

TopCat said:


> ‘Families are desperate’: an au pair agent on life without EU workers
> 
> 
> Jamie Shackell used to place 500 young people with British families every year. She hasn’t matched any since December – and some working parents are being forced to cut their hours
> ...


“Au pairing is intended to offer a unique cultural exchange.” 

We have been here before . This is just another promotion for cheap domestic labour for the middle classes and above . Cultural exchanges don’t provide a liveable wage .


----------



## Badgers (Nov 19, 2021)

Thanks Leave voters and #ToryScum

Still got those blue/black passports made in the EU eh?



> The U.K. government’s preparations for a no-deal Brexit took “significant time and resources” away from planning for a potential pandemic, a major report found.
> 
> The National Audit Office said the government’s Civil Contingencies Secretariat -- responsible for coordinating the government’s emergency planning and response -- allocated more than half its staff to preparing for potential disruptions from a no-deal departure from the European Union, “limiting its ability” to focus on other risks.











						Brexit Distracted U.K. From Preparing for Covid, Watchdog Says
					






					www.bloomberg.com
				




Not sure why there was a plan for a 'no deal' Brexit when we had an 'oven ready deal' promised to us? 

🤔


----------



## gosub (Nov 19, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Thanks Leave voters and #ToryScum
> 
> Still got those blue/black passports made in the EU eh?
> 
> ...


That is a load of shit.


If honest I thought it was nuts May conducted a pandemic exercise at the same time as trying to do Brexit, but she did. 
It went badly and they covered it up. All prior to any of the no deal stuff


----------



## Badgers (Nov 19, 2021)

gosub said:


> That is a load of shit.


Cheers for clearing up the Brexit discussions


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 19, 2021)

gosub said:


> That is a load of shit.
> 
> 
> If honest I thought it was nuts May conducted a pandemic exercise at the same time as trying to do Brexit, but she did.
> It went badly and they covered it up. All prior to any of the no deal stuff


exercise cygnus involved fewer than a thousand people and it is an indictment of the pisspoor state of this country if it cannot manage to wave its hands with panic at the referendum result and spare 950 people to conduct a pandemic exercise at the same time.


----------



## Mezzer (Nov 19, 2021)

Ryanair takes flight from London listing in post-Brexit snub to UK financial centre
					

Europe's largest airline by passenger numbers says a fall in trading volumes of its stock mean its London-traded shares are no longer worth the complexity that Brexit added.




					news.sky.com


----------



## gosub (Nov 19, 2021)

Mezzer said:


> Ryanair takes flight from London listing in post-Brexit snub to UK financial centre
> 
> 
> Europe's largest airline by passenger numbers says a fall in trading volumes of its stock mean its London-traded shares are no longer worth the complexity that Brexit added.
> ...


At least that is in line with ICAO best practice.. Nevwr enjoyed dealing with Murphy.


----------



## The39thStep (Nov 21, 2021)

At last a bit of action from the Remainers 









						Full list of 44 Tory MPs who face cash bid to topple them over Aussie trade deal
					

The European Movement has said it is putting 'Blue Wall' MPs, including ministers Jacob Rees-Mogg and Dominic Raab, "on notice"




					www.mirror.co.uk
				




For those interested in Lord Adonis's European Movement 









						European Movement
					

The European Movement UK is standing up for European rights, standards and values in the UK.




					www.europeanmovement.co.uk


----------



## gosub (Nov 21, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> At last a bit of action from the Remainers


 Coz if nothing else, the last 5 years has shown just how magnimous in defeat the British can be


----------



## ska invita (Nov 22, 2021)

gosub said:


> Coz if nothing else, the last 5 years has shown just how magnimous in defeat the British can be


politics isn't a competition where one side packs up at some point and says good game well played, its never ending. Brexit isn't going away any time soon - i expect these are still the foothills


----------



## philosophical (Nov 22, 2021)

If nothing else the last five years have shown how pig ignorant, incompetent, dysfunctional, wasteful and mendacious in victory some British can be.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 22, 2021)

gosub said:


> Coz if nothing else, the last 5 years has shown just how magnimous in defeat the British can be


and the 5 years before that.


----------



## Chilli.s (Nov 22, 2021)

ska invita said:


> politics isn't a competition where one side packs up at some point and says good game well played, its never ending. Brexit isn't going away any time soon - i expect these are still the foothills


Exactly. 

A system that took 50 years or so to set up.

The hard core leavers like that awful cunt Reece Mogg said it would take a decade or so, that is of course the decade where he sews up his wealth to the level that would be a fantasy for most people.

I don't trust Mogg as far as I can spit so prolly looking at 12 to 15 years of hardship and restructuring


----------



## ska invita (Nov 22, 2021)

Chilli.s said:


> I don't trust Mogg as far as I can spit so prolly looking at 12 to 15 years of hardship and restructuring


definitely - the restructuring - the divergence (from the EU) bit - is what means brexit will be around for decades yet, as what happens in the UK will for a long time be both judged against neighbouring EU countries but also create legal issues of compliance regarding trade.
its also what makes the border issue never ending

to bring it to the present, thing i read recently in the FT with numerous Tory sources suggests the Tories are on pause at the moment over the Irish border, stringing it along a bit, and kicking it into next year, as there's just too much shit hitting fans at home at the moment and they dont want to "ruin christmas" with an article 16 trade war in the middle of that

btw Mogg said “The overwhelming opportunity for Brexit is over the next 50 years.”


----------



## Chilli.s (Nov 22, 2021)

TBH 50 years to get back to where we were does look quite likely


----------



## Serge Forward (Nov 22, 2021)

Eeee... it'll be just like it was in the 1950s. Round here it was all trees, that Bill Haley was top of the hit parade, and it were all no dogs, no Irish, no Blacks.


----------



## Chilli.s (Nov 22, 2021)

Fuckin hope not



Well luckily it can't...   so ha ha ha


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 22, 2021)

Serge Forward said:


> Eeee... it'll be just like it was in the 1950s. Round here it was all trees, that Bill Haley was top of the hit parade, and it were all no dogs, no Irish, no Blacks.



On the plus side Boris Johnson not born


----------



## gosub (Nov 22, 2021)

Serge Forward said:


> Eeee... it'll be just like it was in the 1950s. Round here it was all trees, that Bill Haley was top of the hit parade, and it were all no dogs, no Irish, no Blacks.


No that's 70 years ago. 50 years Beatles have split up and people have spent a couple of winters discontent


----------



## brogdale (Nov 22, 2021)

gosub said:


> No that's 70 years ago. 50 years Beatles have split up and people have spent a couple of winters discontent


Really? Winters (plural?) of discontent by 1971?


----------



## Chilli.s (Nov 22, 2021)

I fondly remember the winter of discontent. We had a special candle that went on the kitchen table that we all sat round in the no power dark evenings.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 22, 2021)

gosub said:


> No that's 70 years ago. 50 years Beatles have split up and people have spent a couple of winters discontent


you're getting confused between the winter of discontent and the winter of disco tent


----------



## The39thStep (Nov 22, 2021)

Nostagia never remembers


----------



## brogdale (Nov 22, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Nostagia never remembers


See the % of the population that believe the 3 day week/lights going out/candles lighting the BluePeter studio happened under Labour...even those that were around at the time.


----------



## Chilli.s (Nov 22, 2021)

brogdale said:


> See the % of the population that believe the 3 day week/lights going out/candles lighting the BluePeter studio happened under Labour...even those that were around at the time.


Exactly, never underestimate the power of fudge. A one party state is just what some want, the party of the ruling class


----------



## Serge Forward (Nov 22, 2021)

gosub said:


> No that's 70 years ago. 50 years Beatles have split up and people have spent a couple of winters discontent


I've never been that good at maths. It's like always say, the world is divided between three kinds of people: those who can count and those who can't.


----------



## andysays (Nov 22, 2021)

Chilli.s said:


> I fondly remember the winter of discontent. We had a special candle that went on the kitchen table that we all sat round in the no power dark evenings.


...and when things got really bad, you'd actually light the candle


----------



## Serene (Nov 22, 2021)

Europe is now enjoying riots. I need a new telly and a new pair of Louboutins and have been waiting patiently for the riots to start, and, well .... nothing.


----------



## Chilli.s (Nov 22, 2021)

Serene said:


> Europe is now enjoying riots. I need a new telly and a new pair of Louboutins and have been waiting patiently for the riots to start, and, well .... nothing.


I have some quite durable red paint and can "louboutinise" virtually any shoe you want, for a small price, in comparison


----------



## PR1Berske (Nov 22, 2021)

> Not a single scientist has applied to a UK government visa scheme for Nobel prize laureates and other award winners since its launch six months ago, _New Scientist _can reveal. The scheme has come under criticism from scientists and has been described as “a joke”.
> 
> In May, the government launched a fast-track visa route for award-winners in the fields of science, engineering, the humanities and medicine who want to work in the UK. This prestigious prize route makes it easier for some academics to apply for a Global Talent visa – it requires only one application, with no need to meet conditions such as a grant from the UK Research and Innovation funding body or a job offer at a UK organisation.
> 
> ...


----------



## ska invita (Nov 23, 2021)

> the L’Oréal-UNESCO for Women in Science International Awards


They're taking those 'here's the science bit' fake labs in their adverts a bit far arent they?


----------



## gosub (Nov 23, 2021)




----------



## brogdale (Nov 23, 2021)

Looks like something of a significant admission:


----------



## Raheem (Nov 23, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Looks like something of a significant admission:
> 
> View attachment 297917


To put it another way: "Brexit has failed, please can we have some tax cuts as consolation".


----------



## bimble (Nov 23, 2021)

I think that headline is just part of the manoeuvres against Johnson. Brexit can’t fail cos it has no goal.


----------



## Raheem (Nov 23, 2021)

It does have goals as far as some people are concerned. The main one being paying less tax. So, it will indeed have failed in that regard unless there are tax cuts. His Lordship is logical.


----------



## bimble (Nov 23, 2021)

True. And deregulation was sort of a goal from the start.


----------



## ska invita (Nov 23, 2021)

Raheem said:


> It does have goals as far as some people are concerned. The main one being paying less tax. So, it will indeed have failed in that regard unless there are tax cuts. His Lordship is logical.


The main one is deregulation. I can't see how less taxes can relate to Brexit. Tax is set by the chancellor not the EU.


----------



## Raheem (Nov 23, 2021)

The EU does/did have some say over UK tax, for example business taxes, VAT and tax avoidance measures.

IMO, though it's less about specific EU rules and more about the idea of moving to a low-tax low-regulation economic model which being in the EU prohibits. In a fashion, it's the only way to have a Brexit that makes sense. Brexit has to make UK businesses uncompetitive, all things being equal. So the only thing to do is undercut by reducing the costs of running a business.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Nov 23, 2021)

Raheem said:


> The EU does/did have some say over UK tax, for example business taxes, VAT and tax avoidance measures.
> 
> IMO, though it's less about specific EU rules and more about the idea of moving to a low-tax low-regulation economic model which being in the EU prohibits. In a fashion, it's the only way to have a Brexit that makes sense. Brexit has to make UK businesses uncompetitive, all things being equal. So the only thing to do is undercut by reducing the costs of running a business.





EU prohibits low tax, low regulation? Are you taking the piss? The former governor of the EU was previously the PM of fucking Luxembourg for crying out loud.


----------



## Raheem (Nov 23, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> EU prohibits low tax, low regulation? Are you taking the piss? The former governor of the EU was previously the PM of fucking Luxembourg for crying out loud.


Low tax, low regulation always has to be relative to something. Being in the EU prohibits having lower taxes and lower regulation than being in the EU allows.

This is, it prohibits the "Singapore on Thames" model that certain Brexiteers used to recommend.

(And also, the UK isn't Luxembourg.)


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Nov 23, 2021)

Raheem said:


> Low tax, low regulation always has to be relative to something. Being in the EU prohibits having lower taxes and lower regulation than being in the EU allows.
> 
> This is, it prohibits the "Singapore on Thames" model that certain Brexiteers used to recommend.
> 
> (And also, the UK isn't Luxembourg.)




Luxembourg is in the EU. Singapore on Alzette.


----------



## Raheem (Nov 23, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Luxembourg is in the EU. Singapore on Alzette.


Luxembourg isn't a particularly low-tax, low regulation economy. Compare payroll tax rates in Luxembourg, the UK and Singapore, for example.


----------



## ska invita (Nov 23, 2021)

Raheem said:


> The EU does/did have some say over UK tax, for example business taxes, VAT and tax avoidance measures.
> 
> IMO, though it's less about specific EU rules and more about the idea of moving to a low-tax low-regulation economic model which being in the EU prohibits. In a fashion, it's the only way to have a Brexit that makes sense. Brexit has to make UK businesses uncompetitive, all things being equal. So the only thing to do is undercut by reducing the costs of running a business.


There was that EU Tobin Tax type thing for the City as well due to come in- avoiding that was being said to add to the Brexit enthusiasm. Not sure how far that got to be implemented in the EU -anyone know? Im curious


----------



## Raheem (Nov 23, 2021)

ska invita said:


> There was that EU Tobin Tax type thing for the City as well due to come in- avoiding that was being said to add to the Brexit enthusiasm. Not sure how far that got to be implemented in the EU -anyone know? Im curious


I believe the process was put on hold because of Brexit. I think it's less than half of EU countries taking part, though.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Nov 24, 2021)

Raheem said:


> Luxembourg isn't a particularly low-tax, low regulation economy. Compare payroll tax rates in Luxembourg, the UK and Singapore, for example.




Yeah, all them banks, Amazon and so on just pretend to be there cos the hiking is good, that must be it.


----------



## gosub (Nov 24, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Yeah, all them banks, Amazon and so on just pretend to be there cos the hiking is good, that must be it.


Know a couple of people who wotk at Amazon in Luxembourg, non of them actually live there.  They all have to commute in from Germany and France


----------



## philosophical (Nov 24, 2021)

Whatever has happened that people now call ‘Brexit’ isn’t what was voted for, because the voting slip did not differentiate with regard to Northern Ireland.
Probably not an issue for the leave voting anti Irish racists.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Nov 24, 2021)

philosophical said:


> Whatever has happened that people now call ‘Brexit’ isn’t what was voted for, because the voting slip did not differentiate with regard to Northern Ireland.



Did it not? Why has no one mentioned this before?


----------



## Smangus (Nov 24, 2021)

The whole point of Brexit is to make the UK more competitive than the EU through a low tax low regulatory regime to directly compete with them (and others) . That's not to say that there are not areas in the EU that don't have historically low tax/financially favourable regimes also . 

But they are the minority of administrations there. We are only at the start of this process, if anyone thinks that this gvt won't drive done this particular avenue at every opportunity it gets they are deluded. This was my main reason for voting remain, not because I think that the EU offers some sort of utopia but, that their  social, environmental, etc legislation and ECJ offered the best checks and balances against this Tory gvts actions in this country. 

Yeah, and before people start citing Greece, migrants, etc, etc I know about all that and don't agree with it at all but that doesn't change my opinion that working people in this country will be well and truly fucked over from now on in.


----------



## philosophical (Nov 24, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Did it not? Why has no one mentioned this before?



It needs mentioning on a daily, indeed almost hourly basis.
Every time anybody anywhere says brexit has happened in fact, in my opinion.
I think there needs to be a constant reminder of the danger posed by leave voting racists.
I also think leave voters need to be constantly reminded they are utter cunts.

This morning that utter cunt Rabb was doing the media rounds talking of the ‘migrant crisis’ and the need for cooperation with France.
He is too thick to spot the irony.
I hope the French tell him to stick his cooperation up his arse.


----------



## gosub (Nov 24, 2021)

philosophical said:


> It needs mentioning on a daily, indeed almost hourly basis.
> Every time anybody anywhere says brexit has happened in fact, in my opinion.
> I think there needs to be a constant reminder of the danger posed by leave voting racists.
> I also think leave voters need to be constantly reminded they are utter cunts.
> ...


----------



## Raheem (Nov 24, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Yeah, all them banks, Amazon and so on just pretend to be there cos the hiking is good, that must be it.


Sure, but what I didn't say is that there's nothing wrong with Luxembourg. Just that it doesn't have an economic model that's even close to Singapore's.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Nov 24, 2021)

gosub said:


> Know a couple of people who wotk at Amazon in Luxembourg, non of them actually live there.  They all have to commute in from Germany and France



Isn't Luxembourg literally like 5 miles across?


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 24, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Isn't Luxembourg literally like 5 miles across?


At a thousand square miles, no
Singapore is rather smaller


----------



## gosub (Nov 24, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Isn't Luxembourg literally like 5 miles across?


About that. And most the people who work there can't afford to live there


----------



## MrSki (Nov 28, 2021)




----------



## MrSki (Nov 28, 2021)




----------



## Yossarian (Nov 28, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Isn't Luxembourg literally like 5 miles across?



It's almost exactly the same size as Dorset, with a slightly lower population.


----------



## TopCat (Nov 28, 2021)

This is fab. Even Macron still hopes Brexit Britain will come to its senses


----------



## Badgers (Nov 28, 2021)

TopCat said:


> This is fab. Even Macron still hopes Brexit Britain will come to its senses


Fair play Macron 😎

Compare that to our corrupt, bumbling, cheating, drunk of a PM and I want to be French 👏


----------



## philosophical (Nov 28, 2021)

Any leave voters successfully sorted the land border issue yet?


----------



## Badgers (Nov 28, 2021)

philosophical said:


> Any leave voters successfully sorted the land border issue yet?


No. It is the remain voters responsibility to find solutions to the leave voters bigoted, short sighted stupidity. 

They do have the blue/black passports manufactured in Poland and not 'completely empty' shelves to crow about. Ambivalent to the fact they enabled the #ToryScum to strip away any decency left in this country. 

#worldbeating


----------



## The39thStep (Nov 28, 2021)

TopCat said:


> This is fab. Even Macron still hopes Brexit Britain will come to its senses


Spain of course renowned for its observance of Remembrance Day.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 28, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Fair play Macron 😎
> 
> Compare that to our corrupt, bumbling, cheating, drunk of a PM and I want to be French 👏


je veux être français


----------



## Badgers (Nov 28, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Je veux être français


Oui


----------



## The39thStep (Nov 28, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Fair play Macron 😎
> 
> Compare that to our corrupt, bumbling, cheating, drunk of a PM and I want to be French 👏











						Protests against Emmanuel Macron - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## Badgers (Nov 28, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Protests against Emmanuel Macron - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The French protesting shocker?


----------



## The39thStep (Nov 28, 2021)

Badgers said:


> The French protesting shocker?


Aside from the Brit theory that its somehow in their blood there must be a reason to explain the level of protests by the French against Macron surely?


----------



## Badgers (Nov 28, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Aside from the Brit theory that its somehow in their blood there must be a reason to explain the level of protests by the French against Macron surely?


Pray tell...


----------



## Badgers (Nov 28, 2021)




----------



## Badgers (Nov 28, 2021)

> Brexit isn’t working. We were sold a false prospectus. Businesses, especially small and medium-size ones, are reeling. They are absorbing unwanted costs; paying hidden tariffs; suffering hitherto avoidable checks on exports; moving factories, depots and offices to within the EU; shedding workers and haemorrhaging orders. Children’s school trips to and from Europe have collapsed. It takes months to get a visa. British science remains outside the EU’s Horizon programme, the biggest international science programme in the world. So it goes on.







__





						As buyer’s remorse begins to stalk even ardent Brexiters, they can no longer indulge in fantasy | Brexit | The Guardian
					

The government has to give up on playing games and start to make deals with the EU




					amp.theguardian.com


----------



## Badgers (Dec 3, 2021)

Interesting times


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 3, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Interesting times



they're only a few years behind eirigi Éirígí For A New Republic  — Éirígí For A New Republic


----------



## Badgers (Dec 3, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> they're only a few years behind eirigi Éirígí For A New Republic  — Éirígí For A New Republic


Indeed


----------



## Badgers (Dec 3, 2021)

How far we done fall...


----------



## Maggot (Dec 6, 2021)

UK plays down Brexit link in US steel tariff row
					

Reports suggesting a US decision to maintain tariffs on UK steel is linked to Brexit are rejected.



					www.bbc.co.uk
				




US removing steel tarriffs for the EU but not UK.


Also hotelier Rocco Forte, who was a big Brexit supporter, now complaining that he can't get enough staff for his UK hotels.


----------



## existentialist (Dec 6, 2021)

Maggot said:


> Also hotelier Rocco Forte, who was a big Brexit supporter, now complaining that he can't get enough staff for his UK hotels.


Congenital cunts.


----------



## ska invita (Dec 6, 2021)

existentialist said:


> Congenital cunts.


had to google congenital..."of a disease or physical abnormality present from birth"?


----------



## existentialist (Dec 6, 2021)

ska invita said:


> had to google congenital..."of a disease or physical abnormality present from birth"?


Thus(ly), tends to imply "inherited"


----------



## Badgers (Dec 10, 2021)

Maggot said:


> UK plays down Brexit link in US steel tariff row
> 
> 
> Reports suggesting a US decision to maintain tariffs on UK steel is linked to Brexit are rejected.
> ...




Is Steel needed to make blue/black passports? Should not matter as that #brexitwin is manufactured in the EU anyway 🤔


----------



## brogdale (Dec 10, 2021)

Badgers said:


> View attachment 300034
> 
> Is Steel needed to make blue/black passports? Should not matter as that #brexitwin is manufactured in the EU anyway 🤔


Biden keeps that in place all the time that blustercunt and Frosty the No-man threaten to destabilise the GFA with article 16.


----------



## Badgers (Dec 10, 2021)




----------



## stdP (Dec 10, 2021)

Badgers said:


> View attachment 300074
> 
> View attachment 300075



Indeed. I'm not sure why anyone would be happy with only a £766 billion brexit boost. That only means every person living in the UK gets an ~£11bn dividend, whereas everyone knows brexit should be delivering more like £15bn per person.


----------



## Serene (Dec 10, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Protests against Emmanuel Macron - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The french are spot on at demonstrations. I watched one a few months ago where farmers drove past the politicians house in tractors and trailers and sprayed cow shít all over his house, and through the open window,


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 10, 2021)

Serene said:


> The french are spot on at demonstrations. I watched one a few months ago where farmers drove past the politicians house in tractors and trailers and sprayed cow shít all over his house, and through the open window,


you're always the bystander i note


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 10, 2021)

stdP said:


> Indeed. I'm not sure why anyone would be happy with only a £766 billion brexit boost. That only means every person living in the UK gets an ~£11bn dividend, whereas everyone knows brexit should be delivering more like £15bn per person.


i'd be quite happy with a £766 billion brexit boost. but when i get it it will be only £1.50 in current value


----------



## Serene (Dec 10, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> you're always the bystander i note


I am a pacifist.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 10, 2021)

Serene said:


> I am a pacifist.


pacificists don't have to be bystanders. you could be a pacifist and drive that shit-spraying tractor. if you had the gumption, of course.


----------



## Serene (Dec 10, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> pacificists don't have to be bystanders. you could be a pacifist and drive that shit-spraying tractor. if you had the gumption, of course.


Why would I do that when I am a pacifist?


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 10, 2021)

Serene said:


> Why would I do that when I am a pacifist?


oh i see! by 'i am a pacifist' you mean 'i don't do anything which stands any chance of getting me arrested' - you're _that _sort of pacifist, the ineffectual type.


----------



## Carvaged (Dec 10, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Interesting times




I'm wondering whether Dublin might be willing to consider applications to join their nation from other parts of the post-Brexshit UK as well 🤔


----------



## Serene (Dec 10, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> oh i see! by 'i am a pacifist' you mean 'i don't do anything which stands any chance of getting me arrested' - you're _that _sort of pacifist, the ineffectual type.


I am a pacifist. Look that up in a dictionary to clarify any delusions that you have.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 10, 2021)

Serene said:


> I am a pacifist. Look that up in a dictionary to clarify any delusions that you have.


yeh i know pacifists believe in pacifism

which part of that precludes you from driving a shit-spraying tractor? how is driving a shit-spraying tractor a violent act?


----------



## Carvaged (Dec 10, 2021)

Badgers said:


> View attachment 300074
> 
> View attachment 300075



Uh oh, expect more breaking news about Dodi and Diana or arthritis cures to try and bury the bad news...


----------



## Serene (Dec 10, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh i know pacifists believe in pacifism
> View attachment 300080
> which part of that precludes you from driving a shit-spraying tractor? how is driving a shit-spraying tractor a violent act?


Ask your lawyer to clarify any delusions that you have.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 10, 2021)

Serene said:


> Ask your lawyer to clarify any delusions that you have.


what a contemptible squirming weaselly creature you are


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 10, 2021)

Carvaged said:


> I'm wondering whether Dublin might be willing to consider applications to join their nation from other parts of the post-Brexshit UK as well 🤔


Spymaster has joined them


----------



## not a trot (Dec 10, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> i'd be quite happy with a £766 billion brexit boost. but when i get it it will be *only £1.50 in current value*


Try not to spend it all at once.


----------



## andysays (Dec 10, 2021)

Serene said:


> Ask your lawyer to clarify any delusions that you have.


I'm not sure exactly what you're trying to suggest about Pickman's model here, but I suspect that delusion isn't really the appropriate word.

A delusion can be defined as an idiosyncratic belief or impression maintained despite being contradicted by reality or rational argument, typically as a symptom of mental disorder.

An example of a delusion might be that your posts here are worthwhile and/or add anything to the discussion.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 10, 2021)

Recent FT article  (£wall?) heralding an "expected rebound" in business investment had a couple of graphs that might well excite remoaniac interest?


note that the trend is post 2008.

and for comparison (same indexing):



 the divergence post June 2016 is evident.


----------



## philosophical (Dec 13, 2021)

I doubt if Mark Francois and is leave ilk wrote this speech, and I can't think of one Brexiteer politician who could speak about _the _central issue (as far as I am concerned) of Brexit as well as this comedian.
Agree or disagree, like or dislike, here is somebody who is not a leave voting poseur retrospectively justifying their vote in relation to Ireland, but an eloquent man who has been up close and personal.


----------



## Badgers (Dec 18, 2021)




----------



## Badgers (Dec 18, 2021)




----------



## Badgers (Dec 18, 2021)




----------



## Badgers (Dec 18, 2021)




----------



## Badgers (Dec 18, 2021)

Conservative MP warns Brexit is destroying British agriculture
					

BREXIT IS ‘destroying’ the agricultural industry, yet the UK Government is refusing to take the labour shortage crisis seriously.




					www.thescottishfarmer.co.uk


----------



## bimble (Dec 18, 2021)

i think this thread has died because there is absolutely nobody left, anywhere, who has the energy to pretend to think that brexit is going great, or will ever in future seem like it was a good idea. 
Not even the government who were elected to do a brexit, nobody. 
 its like we're all limping along, we know we're hobbled, hopefully its not terminal let's just not talk about it cos its all a bit embarrassing an accident we did a while ago.


----------



## Badgers (Dec 18, 2021)

Lord Frost: Boris Johnson's Brexit minister resigns from cabinet
					

Lord Frost is unhappy with the direction of the government and rising taxes - but the final straw was the re-introduction of COVID measures due to the spread of Omicron variant, Sky News understands.




					news.sky.com


----------



## Badgers (Dec 18, 2021)




----------



## Badgers (Dec 18, 2021)




----------



## agricola (Dec 18, 2021)

something something unelected bureaucrats


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 18, 2021)

Lotta Continua


----------



## Badgers (Dec 18, 2021)




----------



## MrSki (Dec 18, 2021)

What a shower of shite.


----------



## T & P (Dec 18, 2021)

bimble said:


> i think this thread has died because there is absolutely nobody left, anywhere, who has the energy to pretend to think that brexit is going great, or will ever in future seem like it was a good idea.
> Not even the government who were elected to do a brexit, nobody.
> its like we're all limping along, we know we're hobbled, hopefully its not terminal let's just not talk about it cos its all a bit embarrassing an accident we did a while ago.


----------



## bimble (Dec 18, 2021)

T & P said:


>


----------



## Badgers (Dec 18, 2021)

MrSki said:


> What a shower of shite.




Which Uturn liar next then?


----------



## bimble (Dec 18, 2021)

fuck daffodils, middle class nonsense you cant eat them . 








						Millions of daffodils ‘will rot’ if Brexit denies UK farmers foreign workers
					

Flower growers fear end of the UK’s £100m industry as Covid and border restrictions lead to lack of seasonal workers




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 18, 2021)

bimble said:


> i think this thread has died because there is absolutely nobody left, anywhere, who has the energy to pretend to think that brexit is going great, or will ever in future seem like it was a good idea.
> Not even the government who were elected to do a brexit, nobody.
> its like we're all limping along, we know we're hobbled, hopefully its not terminal let's just not talk about it cos its all a bit embarrassing an accident we did a while ago.


----------



## bimble (Dec 18, 2021)

The39thStep said:


>



your internet life is really weird.


----------



## Badgers (Dec 18, 2021)

bimble said:


> fuck daffodils, middle class nonsense you cant eat them .
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank goodness the farmers and fishermen are all doing great new business.


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 18, 2021)

bimble said:


> your internet life is really weird.


Eclectic is the preferred nomenclature, but thank you.


----------



## philosophical (Dec 18, 2021)

Who's the next Brexit Minister then?
That moron Nadine Dorries?


----------



## Badgers (Dec 18, 2021)

philosophical said:


> Who's the next Brexit Minister then?
> That moron Nadine Dorries?


Hancock has some free time 🤔


----------



## bimble (Dec 18, 2021)

How many brexit ministers have we had already feels like hundreds .


----------



## Raheem (Dec 18, 2021)

philosophical said:


> Who's the next Brexit Minister then?
> That moron Nadine Dorries?


Apparently, she prefers "Mrs".


----------



## sleaterkinney (Dec 18, 2021)

Badgers said:


>



He knows the gig is up, people can see Johnson for the lying sack of shit he is and a brexit constituency voted in a LD.


----------



## Ax^ (Dec 18, 2021)

Can i just add a  


Brexit is no longer a poltical powerhouse in the mind of the public , quick everyone run away


----------



## ska invita (Dec 18, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Conservative MP warns Brexit is destroying British agriculture
> 
> 
> BREXIT IS ‘destroying’ the agricultural industry, yet the UK Government is refusing to take the labour shortage crisis seriously.
> ...


" there are thousands of animals backed up on farm, pigs developing respiratory diseases, increased reports of tail biting and facing imminent crisis that thousands will be slaughtered on farm and the government has the opportunity to urgently act in the short term"


----------



## Raheem (Dec 18, 2021)

National conversation a week from now is gonna be "What did you have instead of turkey?" innit?


----------



## tim (Dec 18, 2021)

Badgers said:


>



Farewell Frosty the "No" man
We had some fun before you melted away
Sadly, you won't be back on Christmas day


----------



## Sprocket. (Dec 18, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Hancock has some free time 🤔


Hopefully only a half hour!


----------



## Calamity1971 (Dec 18, 2021)




----------



## brogdale (Dec 18, 2021)

Sam Coates (Sky) is presenting this as real top notch Blue-on-Blue:



_Steve Baker removed Nadine Dorris_

It's nice, but isn't her surname Dorries?


----------



## brogdale (Dec 18, 2021)

Calamity1971 said:


>



Frost; what a melt!


----------



## brogdale (Dec 18, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Sam Coates (Sky) is presenting this as real top notch Blue-on-Blue:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



More juicy stuff here from Coates:


----------



## Calamity1971 (Dec 18, 2021)

brogdale said:


> More juicy stuff here from Coates:



Poor Doris


----------



## eatmorecheese (Dec 18, 2021)

I love a group of venal, grasping shitheads fighting each other. Has a calming effect on me


----------



## tim (Dec 18, 2021)

eatmorecheese said:


> I love a group of venal, grasping shitheads fighting each other. Has a calming effect on me


Really, most of us find it rather exhilarating, which is why we do it.


----------



## Nine Bob Note (Dec 19, 2021)

brogdale said:


> _Steve Baker removed Nadine Dorris_
> 
> It's nice, but isn't her surname Dorries?



Doris Cartoff


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 19, 2021)

philosophical said:


> Who's the next Brexit Minister then?
> That moron Nadine Dorries?



If we can get her away from Culture that'd be swell.


----------



## philosophical (Dec 19, 2021)

Except Brexit is anti culture and anti creativity. Unless it’s Ready Steady Cook Roadkill.


----------



## ska invita (Dec 19, 2021)

Although Frost has blamed his resignation  on PLan B etc etc I expect (instinctual guess) its very much to do with orders given about the direction of border negotiations. Sounds like Boris has slammed the brakes on Art 16 etc and Frost isnt having it


----------



## brogdale (Dec 19, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Although Frost has blamed his resignation  on PLan B etc etc I expect (instinctual guess) its very much to do with orders given about the direction of border negotiations. Sounds like Boris has slammed the brakes on Art 16 etc and Frost isnt having it


Of course; the rest was just his final factional leverage.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 19, 2021)

Is frost today's dead sheep?


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 19, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Sam Coates (Sky) is presenting this as real top notch Blue-on-Blue:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



She's dropped an e


----------



## Raheem (Dec 19, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Although Frost has blamed his resignation  on PLan B etc etc I expect (instinctual guess) its very much to do with orders given about the direction of border negotiations. Sounds like Boris has slammed the brakes on Art 16 etc and Frost isnt having it


Think it might be the reverse. That a climbdown is all sorted, but now all of a sudden it's the last thing Johnson needs.


----------



## DJWrongspeed (Dec 19, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> Can i just add a
> 
> 
> Brexit is no longer a poltical powerhouse in the mind of the public , quick everyone run away


That certainly came out in the n.Shropshire by-election. Brexit wasn’t the issue.


----------



## ska invita (Dec 19, 2021)

Raheem said:


> Think it might be the reverse. That a climbdown is all sorted, but now all of a sudden it's the last thing Johnson needs.


wouldnt that suggest Frost was on board with the climbdown...and if he was why would he resign now for maximum negative impact? I dont know tbh... i get the feeling this has sabotage written on it


----------



## brogdale (Dec 19, 2021)

ska invita said:


> wouldnt that suggest Frost was on board with the climbdown...and if he was why would he resign now for maximum negative impact? I dont know tbh... i get the feeling this has sabotage written on it


Yeah, despite all the distractionary guff, it looks like Johnson told Frost they were totally caving-in to the suprastate and he flounced.


----------



## gosub (Dec 19, 2021)

bimble said:


> i think this thread has died because there is absolutely nobody left, anywhere, who has the energy to pretend to think that brexit is going great, or will ever in future seem like it was a good idea.
> Not even the government who were elected to do a brexit, nobody.
> its like we're all limping along, we know we're hobbled, hopefully its not terminal let's just not talk about it cos its all a bit embarrassing an accident we did a while ago.


I disagree with a bit. I think history is going to show we didn't have any choice but to leave.  Granted it could have gone better but i think it's within the nature if thing it turned out the way it has. 

That we got out without kurplunuking EUrope  is to the  good (though we may still yet kurplunuking the UK


----------



## Raheem (Dec 19, 2021)

ska invita said:


> wouldnt that suggest Frost was on board with the climbdown.


Yes it would. He only plays a Brexiteer on TV, after all. More to the point, it's been pretty strongly and reliably rumoured over the last week or so that a climbdown is at the Is and Ts stage. I think Frost either doesn't want to complicit in kicking off a trade war, or else Johnson only actually wants delay and a theatrical row with the EU, which isn't really worth Frost's while, given that it would be transparently all about Johnson, and Johnson isn't exactly at the height of his powers.


----------



## bimble (Dec 19, 2021)

gosub said:


> I think history is going to show we didn't have any choice but to leave.


What are things that made it inevitable then ?


----------



## ska invita (Dec 19, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Yeah, despite all the distractionary guff, it looks like Johnson told Frost they were totally caving-in to the suprastate and he flounced.


for clarity "caving in" means agreeing _again _to the border they already agreed to.
if that border is agreed to and implemented - as in actually building some customs infastructure that the TOries have so far stalled on for the most part - then the whole saga rolls on courtesy of the Unionists
...and round we go again, but faster


----------



## ska invita (Dec 19, 2021)

bimble said:


> i think this thread has died


was a temporary government-led pause for xmas - this topic has a looooooooooooooooooooong way to go yet


----------



## gosub (Dec 19, 2021)

bimble said:


> What are things that made it inevitable then ?


The election of Juncker despirt UK protests and the veto that wasn't veto would do it. Beyond that you had the the growth of UKIP to be the UK largest party in Brussels over the years and a general cowardice of successive UK governments  to actually engage with the British electorate over what it was invloved in.

Not that there weren't pluses to being in the EU and in Juncker was a pretty stand up guy tbf.
But we are out.


----------



## bimble (Dec 19, 2021)

gosub said:


> The election of Juncker despirt UK protests and the veto that wasn't veto would do it. Beyond that you had the the growth of UKIP to be the UK largest party in Brussels over the years and a general cowardice of successive UK governments  to actually engage with the British electorate over what it was invloved in.
> 
> Not that there weren't pluses to being in the EU and in Juncker was a pretty stand up guy tbf.
> But we are out.


Oh aye but then you might as well say ‘history will show I had no choice’ but to trip over and land in a vat of shit because the shit was there & there was a sign hung up by some bastards saying walk this way.


----------



## ska invita (Dec 19, 2021)

of course it wasn't inevitable


----------



## philosophical (Dec 19, 2021)

Who’d have thought the action of leaving would lead to problems with the land border in Ireland?
Certainly not the moronic posing bastard cunts purporting to be of the left who voted leave, and now retrospectively justify their vote.
There is also a notion from more general leave voters who don’t purport to be of the left that ramping up trouble in Ireland is the lesser of two evils when remaining meant burgundy passports.
It is so funny that there is the lament that Brexit is done, and somehow the country needs to come together. It isn’t done, and somebody with my outlook would never exist in harmony with Farage and his ilk.
The division goes on forever, to paraphrase: ‘no surrender, no surrender, no surrender to the Brexit cunts’. The worse things are post Brexit the more it demonstrates the folly of voting leave.
As for a democratic deficit, it already exists because the ‘leave’ that was voted for excludes Northern Ireland.


----------



## philosophical (Dec 19, 2021)

gosub said:


> The election of Juncker despirt UK protests and the veto that wasn't veto would do it. Beyond that you had the the growth of UKIP to be the UK largest party in Brussels over the years and a general cowardice of successive UK governments  to actually engage with the British electorate over what it was invloved in.
> 
> Not that there weren't pluses to being in the EU and in Juncker was a pretty stand up guy tbf.
> But we are out.



Does that ‘we’ include the whole of the UK equally?
‘We’ are not out as an entire country.


----------



## gosub (Dec 19, 2021)

philosophical said:


> Does that ‘we’ include the whole of the UK equally?
> ‘We’ are not out as an entire country.



Not sure I know my Irish born wife now ex voted the other way to me in the Scottish independence referendum


----------



## not a trot (Dec 19, 2021)

Truss to replace Frost according to BBC. What could possibly go wrong.


----------



## two sheds (Dec 19, 2021)

European pork markets are ours


----------



## Badgers (Dec 19, 2021)




----------



## gosub (Dec 19, 2021)

Out of interest any one how many negotiatiors the EU side hav got through since this all started?


----------



## Smangus (Dec 19, 2021)

Well that's sorted , a complete capitulation to the EU in the offing now.


----------



## gosub (Dec 19, 2021)

Smangus said:


> Well that's sorted , a complete capitulation to the EU in the offing now.


Can't really see how it canbe anything else. Though I'm sure they will try and polish it


----------



## bimble (Dec 19, 2021)

Liz Truss. So she’s in charge of brexit, runs the foreign office & international aid and is also minister for women & equalities. Three jobs. Such talent. Is it 3 salaries ? Joke country.


----------



## rubbershoes (Dec 19, 2021)

Smangus said:


> Well that's sorted , a complete capitulation to the EU in the offing now.



Some may call it capitulation but others could say that the EU knew what they wanted whereas what the Brexiteers wanted was never achievable as it was only an ideology


----------



## bimble (Dec 19, 2021)

Smangus said:


> Well that's sorted , a complete capitulation to the EU in the offing now.


oh no what do think has gone wrong ? How come we haven't managed to get a brilliant brexit - will it be Liz Truss's fault now? 


thought this was spot on btw:


----------



## brogdale (Dec 19, 2021)

not a trot said:


> Truss to replace Frost according to BBC. What could possibly go wrong.


Johnson clearly regards her as a real threat if he's giving that poisoned chalice that he can spike even further.


----------



## philosophical (Dec 19, 2021)

Smangus said:


> Well that's sorted , a complete capitulation to the EU in the offing now.


Why would it be described as a capitulation if what happens is what the UK agreed in negotiation?


----------



## existentialist (Dec 19, 2021)

bimble said:


> Liz Truss. So she’s in charge of brexit, runs the foreign office & international aid and is also minister for women & equalities. Three jobs. Such talent. Is it 3 salaries ? Joke country.


TBF, and amazing as it might seem, they are running out of useful idiots...


----------



## bimble (Dec 19, 2021)

existentialist said:


> TBF, and amazing as it might seem, they are running out of useful idiots...


I think we are beyond that, there’s nobody in charge using these idiots. It’s idiots all the way up, just a vacuum.


----------



## gosub (Dec 19, 2021)

philosophical said:


> Why would it be described as a capitulation if what happens is what the UK agreed in negotiation?


Coz negotiations are cinntiuning, and usually a lot of dancing around before some hardcore negotiation at the end.  And we are putting on a sub


----------



## bimble (Dec 19, 2021)

gosub said:


> Coz negotiations are cinntiuning, and usually a lot of dancing around before some hardcore negotiation at the end.  And we are putting on a sub


Lol. Why do you think the great striker walked off the pitch.


----------



## gosub (Dec 19, 2021)

bimble said:


> Lol. Why do you think the great striker walked off the pitch.


Your words not mine. But its been every time a coconut. SHortly before every serious cut and thrust UK has switched out whoever is most on top of the breif.


----------



## bimble (Dec 19, 2021)

gosub said:


> Your words not mine. But its been every time a coconut. SHortly before every serious cut and thrust UK has switched out whoever is most on top of the breif.


Eh? I don’t know what you’re saying you suspect Sabotage ? By who ffs. Bizarre.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 19, 2021)

Oh, come on...it's...


----------



## gosub (Dec 19, 2021)

bimble said:


> Eh? I don’t know what you’re saying you suspect Sabotage ? By who ffs. Bizarre.


No incompetence and not wanting to get saddled with it suppose.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 19, 2021)

Smangus said:


> Well that's sorted , a complete capitulation to the EU in the offing now.



uWu is having to trade with your neighbours a hardship after pissing in their sink?


----------



## Smangus (Dec 19, 2021)

philosophical said:


> Why would it be described as a capitulation if what happens is what the UK agreed in negotiation?



I'm being ironic FYI (an anyone elses) 

An oblique reference to the fantastic    Oz trade deal wot she wrote


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 19, 2021)

Never knew Truss was an ex Lib Dem


----------



## ska invita (Dec 19, 2021)

rubbershoes said:


> Some may call it capitulation but others could say that the EU knew what they wanted


what the EU want here is some degree of a trade border with a country hell bent on deregulation

the UK could commit to maintain standards and the border issue goes away


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 19, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Never knew Truss was an ex Lib Dem



Didn't get chosen for a seat because she's a bit dim and wasn't willing to do the training before getting it.

Read into that what you will.


----------



## Badgers (Dec 20, 2021)

Happy New Year 👍👍👍









						New import formalities to bring goods from the EU into the UK as of 1 January 2022
					

In November and December 2021, the UK Government published two new versions of the Border Operating Model (B.O.M), which is a guide to how the border works with the European Union.




					ec.europa.eu


----------



## Ax^ (Dec 21, 2021)

would be more fun if i did not regular updates due to work


----------



## bluescreen (Dec 21, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Never knew Truss was an ex Lib Dem


A staunch ranting republican Lib Dem if the rumour I heard is true.


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 21, 2021)

bluescreen said:


> A staunch ranting republican Lib Dem if the rumour I heard is true.


Yes saw the video clip


----------



## stdP (Dec 21, 2021)

An optimistic article for a change detailing some of the advantages of the incoming customs rules come the first of January:



> This means that on top of all the supply-chain problems that manufacturers have been enduring in recent months, they’ll now face the double whammy of full customs controls for the first time. If businesses do not fulfil the new requirements, then goods won’t be able to leave the port.
> 
> Neither is the transition period complete on January 1. During the rest of 2022, we expect to see a range of other safety and security measures introduced. For example, physical checks on live animals will begin on July 1. This too will put more pressure on border controls, and further slow down the movement of trade from one side to the other.
> 
> ...











						Brexit: what the UK/EU customs changes mean for businesses from January 1
					

Exporters and importers alike are facing more bureaucracy as the full effect of many of the Brexit changes come into effect.




					theconversation.com


----------



## brogdale (Dec 21, 2021)

Ungrateful remoaniacs....


----------



## teqniq (Dec 22, 2021)

Interesting:


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 22, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Ungrateful remoaniacs....
> 
> View attachment 302233


----------



## ska invita (Dec 22, 2021)

teqniq said:


> Interesting:



Curious who has filmed and edited this?


----------



## teqniq (Dec 22, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Curious who has filmed and edited this?


As am I. Also I was latterly aware that it's from 2018.


----------



## ska invita (Dec 22, 2021)

teqniq said:


> As am I. Also I was latterly aware that it's from 2018.


"As a lot of people are asking... this is from Channel 4 documentary #InsideTheAmericanEmbassy"


----------



## bimble (Dec 22, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Ungrateful remoaniacs....
> 
> View attachment 302233


This is brilliant. I'm going to use that as the yardstick by which to judge the success of all my future life choices.


----------



## Carvaged (Dec 22, 2021)

Today we give thanks to Brexshit for the dust and water in our bowls.

Please Sir, I want some more...



> Food shortages hitting Britons more than many in EU, poll finds​Survey suggests UK residents more likely to have faced shortages than those in France, Germany and Spain

















						Food shortages hitting Britons more than many in EU, poll finds
					

Survey suggests UK residents more likely to have faced shortages than those in France, Germany and Spain




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 22, 2021)

Carvaged said:


> Today we give thanks to Brexshit for the dust and water in our bowls.
> 
> Please Sir, I want some more...
> 
> ...


Must say I’ve noticed this in the Urban Christmas meals preparation thread .


----------



## Raheem (Dec 22, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Must say I’ve noticed this in the Urban Christmas meals preparation thread .


Last week I was looking at the Spartan Xmas displays in local supermarkets and thinking there was going to be a massive thing of people not being able to buy their stuff.

But it seems to have turned around now and it feels pretty much normal. 

Double-edged, though, cos I had been imagining it would bring down the government.


----------



## mx wcfc (Dec 22, 2021)

Raheem said:


> Last week I was looking at the Spartan Xmas displays in local supermarkets and thinking there was going to be a massive thing of people not being able to buy their stuff.


After reports on here about Sainsburys not delivering turkeys, I was a teensy bit worried when we did the shop today, especially as it was really busy when we got there at lunchtime.

Nope, no problems at all.  Plenty of turkeys in particular.  There were a couple of special offer wines I might have bought, had someone else not cleared the shelves, but nothing worth worrying about.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Dec 23, 2021)

teqniq said:


> Interesting:





These people are clearly modern day Nostradamuses, when are their predictions going to be full filled? It’s coming up for 4 years since they were made. Has Russell Grant got anything to add?


----------



## teqniq (Dec 23, 2021)

Seriously? Lol.


----------



## Spymaster (Dec 23, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> These people are clearly modern day Nostradamuses, when are their predictions going to be full filled? It’s coming up for 4 years since they were made. Has Russell Grant got anything to add?



There were a few empty shelves though. And a petrol shortage for a week or two.


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 23, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> There were a few empty shelves though. And a petrol shortage for a week or two.


Pity they didn't forecast the supply chain problems in the States this year.


----------



## Ax^ (Dec 23, 2021)

well finally something positive in this thread to say about Brexit


we did not all starve to death just yet
inflation might catch out a few but alas


----------



## brogdale (Dec 23, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> These people are clearly modern day Nostradamuses, when are their predictions going to be full filled? It’s coming up for 4 years since they were made. Has Russell Grant got anything to add?


Most of the macroeconomic observations made were just that, observations. Although there was an implication that the trends seen 2016-2018 might extrapolate, they were noting the impact that Brexit had had on the UK economy in the two years between the referendum and this broadcast. GDP had stalled, investment (inc. FDI) had fallen and (stag)inflation had risen.

I surprised to see you fans of _neoliberalism in one nation_ to balk at such analysis; I thought the point was that this was all worth the economic cost?


----------



## not a trot (Dec 23, 2021)

My hair has gone grey since Brexit. Cunts.


----------



## ska invita (Dec 23, 2021)

brogdale said:


> _neoliberalism in one nation_



no no no, its not _neoliberalism in one nation_ it's _*Global lightly regulated low tax radical supply side reform Britain*_


----------



## MrCurry (Dec 23, 2021)

not a trot said:


> My hair has gone grey since Brexit. Cunts.


As long as it’s still in the remain camp. 🧑‍🦲


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Dec 23, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Most of the macroeconomic observations made were just that, observations. Although there was an implication that the trends seen 2016-2018 might extrapolate, they were noting the impact that Brexit had had on the UK economy in the two years between the referendum and this broadcast. GDP had stalled, investment (inc. FDI) had fallen and (stag)inflation had risen.
> 
> I surprised to see you fans of _neoliberalism in one nation_ to balk at such analysis; I thought the point was that this was all worth the economic cost?




I never wanted neoliberalism, just chaos and so far so good


----------



## brogdale (Dec 23, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> I never wanted neoliberalism, just chaos and so far so good


But it's not even that, is it?
More like a tired, resigned descent into gradual decline.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Dec 23, 2021)

brogdale said:


> But it's not even that, is it?
> More like a tired, resigned descent into gradual decline.




Good.


----------



## bimble (Dec 23, 2021)

Where’s the chaos? Brexit saved the Conservative party and the rest is just going to be a long boring journey towards recognising our own insignificance on the world stage. Crap chaos.


----------



## ska invita (Dec 23, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Good.


whut?
how is deregulated, workers rights crushing, NHS privatisation to US firms etc etc Global Britain good?


----------



## brogdale (Dec 23, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Good.


So why did you take issue with the US embassy staff describing that in macroeconomic terms?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Dec 23, 2021)

ska invita said:


> whut?
> how is deregulated, workers rights crushing, NHS privatisation to US firms etc etc Global Britain good?




Have any of those things happened yet? Or have we just witnessed the political class tearing itself to pieces, exposing itself as the fraud it always was?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Dec 23, 2021)

brogdale said:


> So why did you take issue with the US embassy staff describing that in macroeconomic terms?




Because they were saying it in the hope Brexit could be reversed, which is what that tweet was all about, cause they are the political class scum that can just fuck off.


----------



## bimble (Dec 23, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Because they were saying it in the hope Brexit could be reversed, which is what that tweet was all about, cause they are the political class scum that can just fuck off.


Are the people in charge now better than the people in charge before brexit?


----------



## brogdale (Dec 23, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Because they were saying it in the hope Brexit could be reversed, which is what that tweet was all about, cause they are the political class scum that can just fuck off.


Oh, OK.

I just didn't get that from your comment at all:


Bahnhof Strasse said:


> These people are clearly modern day Nostradamuses, when are their predictions going to be full filled? It’s coming up for 4 years since they were made. Has Russell Grant got anything to add?


Sounded to me like you were saying that their macroeconomic observations/forecasts(?) had not yet materialised as they stated?


----------



## Carvaged (Dec 23, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Have any of those things happened yet?



That's exactly what I said to my Mum when she said setting fire to the sofa in the lounge would burn the house down...


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Dec 23, 2021)

bimble said:


> Are the people in charge now better than the people in charge before brexit?




No, they’re even more hopeless, lurching from crisis to crisis, which is great.


----------



## bimble (Dec 23, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> No, they’re even more hopeless, lurching from crisis to crisis, which is great.


I don’t think it’s great tbh. Bad timing for a bunch of lunatics to be at the wheel really.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Dec 23, 2021)

Carvaged said:


> That's exactly what I said to my Mum when she said setting fire to the sofa in the lounge would burn the house down...




This didn’t happen.


----------



## Cerv (Dec 23, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> No, they’re even more hopeless, lurching from crisis to crisis, which is great.


"great" for who?


----------



## bimble (Dec 23, 2021)

Cerv said:


> "great" for who?


People who feel like it’s just a funny show and none of the government’s decisions or laws will impact them personally .


----------



## Yossarian (Dec 23, 2021)

mx wcfc said:


> Plenty of turkeys in particular.



Glad to see they're respecting the results of their referendum on Christmas.


----------



## Badgers (Dec 24, 2021)

Why would this be? 



> In 2016 there were 47 British parliamentarians holding an Irish passport.
> In 2021 there are 227


----------



## brogdale (Dec 24, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Why would this be?


Is that genuine?


----------



## Badgers (Dec 24, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Is that genuine?


My source says so but that is one man's word against 227 fine upstanding leaders.


----------



## Raheem (Dec 24, 2021)

Badgers said:


> In 2016 there were 47 British parliamentarians holding an Irish passport.
> In 2021 there are 227


Thank you Paul Hardcastle.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 24, 2021)

Badgers said:


> My source says so but that is one man's word against 227 fine upstanding leaders.


Interesting; wonder what his original source is?


----------



## Badgers (Dec 24, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Interesting; wonder what his original source is?


Mint and Teatree


----------



## Flavour (Dec 24, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Have any of those things happened yet? Or have we just witnessed the political class tearing itself to pieces, exposing itself as the fraud it always was?



Not particularly exciting if the result is... Lib dem victories in by elections


----------



## brogdale (Dec 24, 2021)

Bridgen, obviously!


----------



## two sheds (Dec 24, 2021)




----------



## two sheds (Dec 24, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Bridgen, obviously!
> 
> View attachment 302775


he's responsible for all of them?


----------



## brogdale (Dec 24, 2021)

two sheds said:


> View attachment 302776


I actually went back to check my spelling as well..yer cunts!


----------



## spitfire (Dec 24, 2021)

…


----------



## spitfire (Dec 24, 2021)

…


----------



## spitfire (Dec 24, 2021)

…


----------



## sleaterkinney (Dec 24, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> No, they’re even more hopeless, lurching from crisis to crisis, which is great.


It’s what I planned all along!. Never mind the bills being brought in by Patel or the way farmers and fishermen have been dumped.


----------



## Badgers (Dec 24, 2021)

The French word for a pint-sized champagne bottle is ‘gamon’

🤔


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Dec 24, 2021)

Badgers said:


> The French word for a pint-sized champagne bottle is ‘gamon’
> 
> 🤔




Gamon in French means gamon, the meat.

The French do not have a word for a pint of champagne, the only reference to your claim is James O’Brien’s tweet, an entitled posho who’s well in to his sixth year of his anti Brexit whinge.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Dec 24, 2021)

Brexit in French means great lovers with big cocks…


----------



## two sheds (Dec 24, 2021)

A pint of champagne is from now known as a gamon.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Dec 24, 2021)

two sheds said:


> A pint of champagne is from now known as a gamon.




It does work as the biggest cheerleader for such a thing was Winston Churchill, who’s got more than a touch of the Phil Mitchell about him.


----------



## Raheem (Dec 24, 2021)

I'm a bit sceptical about the idea of champagne in imperial bottle sizes. If it ever happened, I reckon it would have only been as a gimmick. We're being sold Orwellian memories of a fake past, IMO.


----------



## Mezzer (Dec 25, 2021)

They snuck this one out quietly.   It's all going so well, isn't it?








						Biggest visa boost for social care as Health and Care Visa scheme expanded
					

Care workers, care assistants and home care workers to become eligible for Health and Care Visa for 12 month period




					www.gov.uk


----------



## TopCat (Dec 26, 2021)

bimble said:


> i think this thread has died because there is absolutely nobody left, anywhere, who has the energy to pretend to think that brexit is going great, or will ever in future seem like it was a good idea.
> Not even the government who were elected to do a brexit, nobody.
> its like we're all limping along, we know we're hobbled, hopefully its not terminal let's just not talk about it cos its all a bit embarrassing an accident we did a while ago.


Your imagination is running hot.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 26, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Your imagination is running hot.


Guardian Opinium poll says 17%:



> “Now what we’re seeing is a significant minority of Leavers saying that things are going badly or at least worse than they expected. While 59% of Remain voters said, ‘I expected it to go badly and think it has’, *only 17% of Leave voters said, ‘I expected it to go well and think it has’.*


----------



## brogdale (Dec 26, 2021)

Guardian reckon you're in a cohort of 17% Bahnhof Strasse 



> only 17% of Leave voters said, ‘I expected it to go well and think it has’.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Dec 26, 2021)

83% of people resounding to Guardian poll are whinging bellends, shocker.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 26, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> 83% of people resounding to Guardian poll are whinging bellends, shocker.


Thought that might wake you up!

HBD


----------



## Badgers (Dec 26, 2021)

Mezzer said:


> They snuck this one out quietly.   It's all going so well, isn't it?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That should raise wages for PROPER British people 👍


----------



## brogdale (Dec 26, 2021)

Was an Opinium poll...but whatever's...


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 26, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Guardian reckon you're in a cohort of 17% Bahnhof Strasse





> 26% of Leave supporters said it had gone worse than they expected, while 16% of those who voted for Brexit said they had expected it to go badly and had been proved right.



Don't forget the 16% who love misery


----------



## brogdale (Dec 26, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Don't forget the 16% who love misery


tbf to Bahnhof Strasse I may have put them in the wrong category?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Dec 26, 2021)

brogdale said:


> tbf to Bahnhof Strasse I may have put them in the wrong category?




Never got on with any Stephen King books, too long and drawn out.


----------



## philosophical (Dec 26, 2021)

If you voted leave you are a nasty deliberately mendacious cunt who joins other flag shagging cunts like Rees Mogg and Mark Francois.
Yesterday we saw the Webb telescope launched, an example of international cooperation, cost a third of the Tory failed, wasted (and largely stolen) Track and Trace money.
As we enter the new rules of 2022 I hope the division between leavers and remainers gets deeper and becomes more bitter and confrontational.


----------



## gosub (Dec 26, 2021)

philosophical said:


> If you voted leave you are a nasty deliberately mendacious cunt who joins other flag shagging cunts like Rees Mogg and Mark Francois.
> Yesterday we saw the Webb telescope launched, an example of international cooperation, cost a third of the Tory failed, wasted (and largely stolen) Track and Trace money.
> As we enter the new rules of 2022 I hope the division between leavers and remainers gets deeper and becomes more bitter and confrontational.


----------



## Ax^ (Dec 26, 2021)

starting early on boxing Day it appear


look we did not all start to death before Christmas so it's going swimmingly


----------



## not a trot (Dec 26, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> starting early on boxing Day it appear
> 
> 
> look we did not all start to death before Christmas so it's going swimmingly


And the pressies are still just as naff. Two pairs of slippers this year ffs, and I only wear slippers to take the mutt for his nightly walk.


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 26, 2021)

philosophical said:


> If you voted leave you are a nasty deliberately mendacious cunt who joins other flag shagging cunts like Rees Mogg and Mark Francois.
> Yesterday we saw the Webb telescope launched, an example of international cooperation, cost a third of the Tory failed, wasted (and largely stolen) Track and Trace money.
> As we enter the new rules of 2022 I hope the division between leavers and remainers gets deeper and becomes more bitter and confrontational.


Happy Xmas to you as well.


----------



## RD2003 (Dec 26, 2021)

Regardless of what opinion polls say, I can't think of anybody I know who still mentions Brexit apart from one or two Remain weirdos, who weren't even weirdos before the Leave victory made them lose all sense of proportion or rationality. They are the types to sport that silly 'Still European' sticker. Presumably they think leaving the EU means that we've drifted onto a different continent entirely.


----------



## Carvaged (Dec 26, 2021)

philosophical said:


> If you voted leave you are a nasty deliberately mendacious cunt who joins other flag shagging cunts like Rees Mogg and Mark Francois.
> Yesterday we saw the Webb telescope launched, an example of international cooperation, cost a third of the Tory failed, wasted (and largely stolen) Track and Trace money.
> As we enter the new rules of 2022 I hope the division between leavers and remainers gets deeper and becomes more bitter and confrontational.



Fear not, when I ascend to the Throne following Camilla's next failed plot, I will immediately rejoin us into the EU and will stick Rees Mogg and his ilk on a duck pond with a large moat and high mobile roaming charges between us.


----------



## philosophical (Dec 26, 2021)

Maybe they look at the concept of ‘leave’ through the prism of the UK/EU land border.
Certainly not remain weirdos but people who have lived through the modern troubles that cost upward of 3000 lives.
Such weirdos to be concerned about that eh?


----------



## two sheds (Dec 26, 2021)

RD2003 said:


> Regardless of what opinion polls say, I can't think of anybody I know who still mentions Brexit apart from one or two Remain weirdos, who weren't even weirdos before the Leave victory made them lose all sense of proportion or rationality. They are the types to sport that silly 'Still European' sticker. Presumably they think leaving the EU means that we've drifted onto a different continent entirely.


Not largely arguing with that, although from the other side there are still lots of headbanger Brexiteers of the gammon type cheered on by the Daily Express and similar who still more than mention Brexit.


----------



## RD2003 (Dec 26, 2021)

I don't doubt it, but I never really encounter those types up close.


----------



## RD2003 (Dec 26, 2021)

philosophical said:


> Maybe they look at the concept of ‘leave’ through the prism of the UK/EU land border.
> Certainly not remain weirdos but people who have lived through the modern troubles that cost upward of 3000 lives.
> Such weirdos to be concerned about that eh?


Maybe they do, but they never talk to me about the land border or anything else caused by leaving the EU in any detail. It's more a kind of existential angst.


----------



## Badgers (Dec 26, 2021)

> Lord Frost’s exit from Brexit opens the door to the co-author of a book describing Brits as the world’s biggest wasters.







__





						Step forward Liz Truss – willing wicker woman for the Brexit bonfire | Brexit | The Guardian
					






					amp-theguardian-com.cdn.ampproject.org


----------



## philosophical (Dec 26, 2021)

RD2003 said:


> Maybe they do, but they never talk to me about the land border or anything else caused by leaving the EU in any detail. It's more a kind of existential angst.



Would you call a remain voter, if you encountered one that is, who was concerned about the UK/EU land border a ‘weirdo’?


----------



## brogdale (Dec 26, 2021)

RD2003 said:


> Regardless of what opinion polls say, I can't think of anybody I know who still mentions Brexit apart from one or two Remain weirdos, who weren't even weirdos before the Leave victory made them lose all sense of proportion or rationality. They are the types to sport that silly 'Still European' sticker. Presumably they think leaving the EU means that we've drifted onto a different continent entirely.


IME people never did mention it until the intra-tory beef was presented as the defining issue in 21st century UK politics. There never was any substance to a 'choice' between 2 contrasting visions of neoliberalism...and there still isn't.


----------



## bimble (Dec 26, 2021)

The 16% of leave voters who say they expected it to go badly and have been proved correct, what’s going on there? Are they all Bahnhof Strasse ?


----------



## RD2003 (Dec 26, 2021)

philosophical said:


> Would you call a remain voter, if you encountered one that is, who was concerned about the UK/EU land border a ‘weirdo’?


Probably, yes, if only for the hell of it. But not to their faces in case they thump me.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 26, 2021)

bimble said:


> The 16% of leave voters who say they expected it to go badly and have been proved correct, what’s going on there? Are they all Bahnhof Strasse ?


The other question that occurs, is what % of that cohort would have told us they knew it would have been "a success" if there had been any single manifestation of advantage to the change in neoliberal approach to trade.


----------



## Carvaged (Dec 26, 2021)

philosophical said:


> As we enter the new rules of 2022 I hope the division between leavers and remainers gets deeper and becomes more bitter and confrontational.



Statistically speaking, the Leavers are dying off at a far faster rate than Remainers, so the confrontation should slowly wither. Eventually the younger generation who, of course, overwhelming voted to remain within the EU into which they were born, will likely do the right thing and take us back in.


----------



## bimble (Dec 26, 2021)

I think maybe 16% of leave voting that way just to fuck shit up / for a laugh / to make david Cameron cry is quite low actually.  If that’s what ‘I thought it would be bad and I was correct’ means.


----------



## philosophical (Dec 26, 2021)

RD2003 said:


> Probably, yes, if only for the hell of it. But not to their faces in case they thump me.



I sense your attitude towards the Irish is basically dismissive. Would I be right?
The attitude of mainland Britain, mainly the English, has traditionally been anti Irish, something that might explain the victory of leave.


----------



## RD2003 (Dec 26, 2021)

philosophical said:


> I sense your attitude towards the Irish is basically dismissive. Would I be right?
> The attitude of mainland Britain, mainly the English, has traditionally been anti Irish, something that might explain the victory of leave.


No, both sides of my family originate from Ireland.

But I doubt if most of those voting leave ever really thought about Ireland as any kind of reason.


----------



## philosophical (Dec 26, 2021)

RD2003 said:


> No, both sides of my family originate from Ireland.
> 
> But I doubt if most of those voting leave ever really thought about Ireland as any kind of reason.



I used to think that. However I now think many many who voted leave did so because they are anti Irish.
The fact is, however, that we cannot know all the reasons why 17 million people voted leave, we are left to speculate.
What is not open to speculation though is that leave won. Leave won voting for the _whole _of the UK to leave the EU.
The vote was a deliberate act, and it ushers in problems in Ireland.
People like me who repeatedly mention that fact are mocked, dismissed, equivocated with, ignored, sneered at, told by leave voters that a solution is not theirs to find. 
I believe it is.
Right now I think every leave voting person, even the mythical half engaged sweet little old lady, are the ones who have caused the problem, and it is down to them to solve it.
Not the ‘weirdo’ (yet another deflecting term) remain voters.


----------



## RD2003 (Dec 26, 2021)

philosophical said:


> Right now I think every leave voting person, even the mythical half engaged sweet little old lady, are the ones who have caused the problem, and it is down to them to solve it.
> Not the ‘weirdo’ (yet another deflecting term) remain voters.


Don't worry, I'm working on it.


----------



## Badgers (Dec 26, 2021)

Carvaged said:


> Statistically speaking, the Leavers are dying off at a far faster rate than Remainers, so the confrontation should slowly wither. Eventually the younger generation who, of course, overwhelming voted to remain within the EU into which they were born, will likely do the right thing and take us back in.


Hopefully their short-sightedness, newspapers and racism die with them


----------



## Badgers (Dec 26, 2021)

philosophical said:


> The fact is, however, that we cannot know all the reasons why 17 million people voted leave, we are left to speculate.


Lies and greed?


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 26, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Lies and greed?





philosophical said:


> The fact is, however, that we cannot know all the reasons why 17 million people voted leave, we are left to speculate.




This isn't in a specific order but I can identify a fair number.

1) The shafted shaft back.
2) "It were better when I were a lad"
3) Yes I believe the lies the Mail told me
4) Fuck it, YOLO
5) Fuck the EU the neoliberal wankers.
6) No that Neoliberal pratt Cameron can't tell me what to do
7) Stop the Forrins comin over
8) We have only to kick the door and the whole rotten edifice of Westminster/EU will come crashing down and finally a socialist utopia will be born!
9) That nice Mr Farridge promised me it'd sort it out


----------



## philosophical (Dec 26, 2021)

RD2003 said:


> Don't worry, I'm working on it.


How much longer will it take?


----------



## brogdale (Dec 26, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> This isn't in a specific order but I can identify a fair number.
> 
> 1) The shafted shaft back.
> 2) "It were better when I were a lad"
> ...


2) Thing is, in many ways for many working class people things were better pre 1973(5).


----------



## Badgers (Dec 26, 2021)

brogdale said:


> 2) Thing is, in many ways for many working class people things were better pre 1973(5).


Voting the EU out under a tory government will fix that


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 26, 2021)

brogdale said:


> 2) Thing is, in many ways for many working class people things were better pre 1973(5).




I'm sure it was, but its also 10 years before I was born so idfk.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 26, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Voting the EU out under a tory government will fix that



Did you see number 8? We're going to hit socialism any minute now.


----------



## Badgers (Dec 26, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Did you see number 8? We're going to hit socialism any minute now.


At least the Brexit voting, Mail reading racists did not end up with that famous antisemitic communist Corbyn. That was a sunlit upland for them for a few years.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 26, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> I'm sure it was, but its also 10 years before I was born so idfk.


But large numbers of the key (voting) demographic were young (workers) in the _Les Trente Glorieuses;_ in part why vacuous, nationalistic guff had such resonance.


----------



## philosophical (Dec 26, 2021)

I entered the wider world from the care system in 1971.
I have no idea what class that put or puts me in.
However I don’t believe things were better before the UK joined the EU than what life has been like since.
Maybe things have changed _despite_ the UK being in the EU.
I do believe that because the Republic of Ireland and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland were both members of the EU, it made it easier to get to the Belfast (Good Friday) Agreement.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 26, 2021)

brogdale said:


> But large numbers of the key (voting) demographic were young (workers) in the _Les Trente Glorieuses;_ in part why vacuous, nationalistic guff had such resonance.



Sure sure, I'm not sure why your trying to convince me because I do know how nostalgia works and that the human brain really likes to think "oh I'm still 20 years old" despite the owner being 20,30,40,50 years older than that.


----------



## Badgers (Dec 26, 2021)

Blitz Spirt all, chocks away


----------



## brogdale (Dec 26, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Sure sure, I'm not sure why your trying to convince me because I do know how nostalgia works and that the human brain really likes to think "oh I'm still 20 years old" despite the owner being 20,30,40,50 years older than that.


I'm not really trying to convince anyone...it was so obviously a component of how the leave project connected with the older, voting cohorts. It's just that over the years some on here have expressed bewilderment at why the olders might have voted in the way that they did.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Dec 26, 2021)

Carvaged said:


> the younger generation who, of course, overwhelming voted to remain within the EU into which they were born, will likely do the right thing and take us back in.




Wow, that’s delusional to an alarming level, have you had a savage blow to the head or something?


----------



## Carvaged (Dec 26, 2021)

philosophical said:


> I don’t believe things were better before the UK joined the EU than what life has been like since



I don't think anyone was blaming the EU. Just stating that that is how a lot of people misunderstood things - largely thanks to the propaganda spewed out by the right-wing press to conceal the wealth and power grab by the rich.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 26, 2021)

philosophical said:


> I entered the wider world from the care system in 1971.
> I have no idea what class that put or puts me in.
> However I don’t believe things were better before the UK joined the EU than what life has been like since.
> Maybe things have changed _despite_ the UK being in the EU.
> I do believe that because the Republic of Ireland and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland were both members of the EU, it made it easier to get to the Belfast (Good Friday) Agreement.


Re. things being better for some/many working class folk pre-1973(5)...I'm only going on what I've heard from older rellies/friends regarding security of employment, quality of employment, community cohesion, relatively affordable housing and other basic aspirations, social housing availability, easily accessible health-care etc. etc.

e2a: I know that you and I can see that correlation ain't necessarily causation, but many folk operate on a much less subtle affective basis.


----------



## Serge Forward (Dec 26, 2021)

brogdale said:


> 2) Thing is, in many ways for many working class people things were better pre 1973(5).


That's not only a UK phenomenon though.


----------



## Yossarian (Dec 26, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Wow, that’s delusional to an alarming level, have you had a savage blow to the head or something?



Maybe saying "fuck you" to the status quo with a vote to leave/rejoin the EU will become a once-in-a-generation tradition.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 26, 2021)

Serge Forward said:


> That's not only a UK phenomenon though.


True, but it's weaponisation in the interests of those hoping to benefit from Brexit is.


----------



## andysays (Dec 26, 2021)

philosophical said:


> Would you call a remain voter, if you encountered one that is, who was concerned about the UK/EU land border a ‘weirdo’?


Anyone who bangs on about it as much as you do, as if it is literally the only aspect of Brexit worth talking about,* is* a fucking weirdo, whether you are able to recognise it or not


----------



## Ax^ (Dec 26, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> Maybe saying "fuck you" to the status quo with a vote to leave/rejoin the EU will become a once-in-a-generation tradition.



maybe next time it's a fuck you to the status quo we can pick not to go with the old Eatonions cause 

down with rich public school wankers running the show

well fuck


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Dec 26, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> Maybe saying "fuck you" to the status quo with a vote to leave/rejoin the EU will become a once-in-a-generation tradition.




It really is odd how some otherwise rational people believe the EU would have us back.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 26, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> It really is odd how some otherwise rational people believe the EU would have us back.


There'd be quite a price...certainly no more printing our own money for the populist right.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 26, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> maybe next time it's a fuck you to the status quo we can pick not to go with the old Eatonions cause
> 
> down with rich public school wankers running the show
> 
> well fuck


The old Etonians in power in 2016 asked us to vote remain.


----------



## Ax^ (Dec 26, 2021)

ok any side Rees fucking mogg or his brood is in favour of vote the other way

fuck that cunt


----------



## philosophical (Dec 26, 2021)

andysays said:


> Anyone who bangs on about it as much as you do, as if it is literally the only aspect of Brexit worth talking about,* is* a fucking weirdo, whether you are able to recognise it or not


You seem to be saying persistence is something that makes a person a weirdo. Or do you have some other definition?
I think you attacking me is an act of deflection from what is the central issue regarding the victorious leave vote.
The UK/EU land border.
Is there another aspect of brexit worth talking about? Perhaps you can say what they are.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 26, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> ok any side Rees fucking mogg or his brood is in favour of vote the other way
> 
> fuck that cunt


M8 they had an each-way bet; these fucking tax-dodging hedgies win however they divide us.


----------



## Ax^ (Dec 26, 2021)

brogdale said:


> M8 they had an each-way bet; these fucking tax-dodging hedgies win however they divide us.



you know his da was part of the ERF as well that line of wankers should be put down and the earth salted


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 26, 2021)

brogdale said:


> The old Etonians in power in 2016 asked us to vote remain.



Yeah they did, they also asked us to leave.


----------



## keybored (Dec 26, 2021)

philosophical said:


> If you voted leave you are a nasty deliberately mendacious cunt who joins other flag shagging cunts like Rees Mogg and Mark Francois.
> Yesterday we saw the Webb telescope launched, an example of international cooperation, cost a third of the Tory failed, wasted (and largely stolen) Track and Trace money.
> As we enter the new rules of 2022 I hope the division between leavers and remainers gets deeper and becomes more bitter and confrontational.


Your posts make me imagine a post-watershed James O'Brien.


----------



## philosophical (Dec 26, 2021)

keybored said:


> Your posts make me imagine a post-watershed James O'Brien.


James O'Brien frequently says brexit has happened, it is done. Whatever he calls brexit is not what was voted for, as it was supposed to be the _whole _of the UK equally, no differential regarding Northern Ireland was printed on the ballot paper. It is a pity that James O'Brien misleads his audience in this way.
He also uses the word 'Freedom' wrongly in my view, because freedom as such does not exist, what exists are constraints.
Sadly he also says 'obviously' almost as frequently as that evil Tory Priti Patel.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 26, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Yeah they did, they also asked us to leave.


Exactly.


----------



## bimble (Dec 26, 2021)

If it had posed any kind of a genuine threat to the status quo it would never have been served up as a referendum would it.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Dec 26, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> It really is odd how some otherwise rational people believe the EU would have us back.


Of course they would. Just with us using the euro, with no veto, and us in the Schengen area.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Dec 26, 2021)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> Of course they would. Just with us using the euro, with no veto, and us in the Schengen area.




They wouldn’t. Germany is now the uncontested #1, France is happy to be the 2nd biggest fish in the pond. By the time any effort gets going to rejoin the direction those two have taken it will be so unpalatable that even the yellow scum will be slinking away from it. 

It is coming up for 7 years since the vote, people need to face up to the fact that it has happened and make the most of what they have, crying in to your beer, bemoaning a past that never existed is the mindset what remainers are accusing leavers of having.


----------



## Yossarian (Dec 26, 2021)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> Of course they would. Just with us using the euro, with no veto, and us in the Schengen area.


The unlucky generation that came of age when COVID and Brexit were happening simultaneously might consider it a price worth paying to eradicate the last of Johnson's legacy, with the bonus of seeing a 75-year-old Nigel Farage crying on TV.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Dec 26, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> They wouldn’t. Germany is now the uncontested #1, France is happy to be the 2nd biggest fish in the pond. By the time any effort gets going to rejoin the direction those two have taken it will be so unpalatable that even the yellow scum will be slinking away from it.
> 
> It is coming up for 7 years since the vote, people need to face up to the fact that it has happened and make the most of what they have, crying in to your beer, bemoaning a past that never existed is the mindset what remainers are accusing leavers of having.



Unpalatable?. What direction do you think the UK is heading that you think is so much better?.

You need to face up to the fact that more and more people are realising that it’s a pile of shite and they were lied to.


----------



## Yossarian (Dec 26, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> It is coming up for 7 years since the vote, people need to face up to the fact that it has happened and make the most of what they have, crying in to your beer, bemoaning a past that never existed is the mindset what remainers are accusing leavers of having.



The 1975 referendum, which had a much clearer results, was followed by 40 years of complaining until another referendum was held, which doesn't bode well for the chances of the issue going away anytime soon - it seems that for as long as there's an EU, Britain will be in some kind of elliptical orbit around it.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 26, 2021)

I can accept its happening, while still bemoaning that it put this shower of cunts in charge and is still throwing up issues and nasty minded legislation.

More power to the HGV drivers but I'm not going to pretend I'm having a fun time while the dust settles.


----------



## Raheem (Dec 26, 2021)

The EU won't allow the UK to rejoin in the foreseeable future (although I'm not sure this has anything to do with Germany suddenly finding itself top tog in the EU).

But don't think it will take long for us to start on a gradual journey back to an EEA-type arrangement, free movement and all.


----------



## Badgers (Dec 26, 2021)

> Post-Brexit changes to Britain’s immigration rules have triggered an unprecedented collapse in bookings for school trips from the continent, organisers say, with countries such as Ireland and the Netherlands now more popular than the UK.











						‘Almost unsaleable’: slump in school trips to UK blamed on Brexit
					

Groups from the continent are going elsewhere, tour operators say, deterred more by passport and visa rules than the pandemic




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## RD2003 (Dec 26, 2021)

sleaterkinney said:


> Unpalatable?. What direction do you think the UK is heading that you think is so much better?.
> 
> You need to face up to the fact that more and more people are realising that it’s a pile of shite and they were lied to.


Gosh, lied to. That's a political innovation. 

These people need firm guidance and direction.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 26, 2021)

sleaterkinney said:


> Unpalatable?. What direction do you think the UK is heading that you think is so much better?.
> 
> You need to face up to the fact that more and more people are realising that it’s a pile of shite and they were lied to.


Lied to? By politicians? Tell me it ain't so


----------



## bimble (Dec 27, 2021)

Raheem said:


> The EU won't allow the UK to rejoin in the foreseeable future (although I'm not sure this has anything to do with Germany suddenly finding itself top tog in the EU).
> 
> But don't think it will take long for us to start on a gradual journey back to an EEA-type arrangement, free movement and all.


I don’t really see why they wouldn’t let us come crawling back looking a bit booody stupid, if somehow that was what the country decided to ask for next week. Just that in itself even without punishing terms would be a big PR victory for the Eu.


----------



## Spymaster (Dec 27, 2021)

bimble said:


> I don’t really see why they wouldn’t let us come crawling back looking a bit booody stupid, if somehow that was what the country decided to ask for next week. Just that in itself even without punishing terms would be a big PR victory for the Eu.


The fact that you can think in terms of “a PR victory for the EU”, vindicates the position of many leavers.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 27, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> The fact that you can think in terms of “a PR victory for the EU”, vindicates the position of many leavers.


That victory has been long won; we won't hear about any of other 27 bailing now they've seen what happens.


----------



## Spymaster (Dec 27, 2021)

brogdale said:


> That victory has been long won; we won't hear about any of other 27 bailing now they've seen what happens.


You reckon?

I’d be willing to bet you that Holland, Austria, and Finland, will have referendums in the next 5 years, probably Italy too.


----------



## Maggot (Dec 27, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> They wouldn’t. Germany is now the uncontested #1, France is happy to be the 2nd biggest fish in the pond. By the time any effort gets going to rejoin the direction those two have taken it will be so unpalatable that even the yellow scum will be slinking away from it.
> 
> It is coming up for 7 years since the vote,


How can 2 countries take it in a bad direction, when all 27 have a say? They don't control it. 

And you can't count.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 27, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> You reckon?
> 
> I’d be willing to bet you that Holland, Austria, and Finland, will have referendums in the next 5 years, probably Italy too.


I don't bet, but if I did I'd take you up on that.
Our sorry state will be enough pour encourager les autres


----------



## bimble (Dec 27, 2021)

Hungary might join us, that would be nice. Very vindicating.


----------



## 19sixtysix (Dec 27, 2021)

Back to the smaller more mundane total fuckups that are presented with Brexit. Getting goods shipped between here and germany. Just when you think you've got paperwork sorted another identical box being returned after repairs spends two weeks in Stanstead before being shipped back to Germany.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 27, 2021)

bimble said:


> Hungary might join us, that would be nice. Very vindicating.


Some of their fash politicians might like the idea, but polling from a year ago had 85% of those asked supporting continued membership of the neoliberal suprastate.


----------



## bimble (Dec 27, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Some of their fash politicians might like the idea, but polling from a year ago had 85% of those asked supporting continued membership of the neoliberal suprastate.


Yeah they might get kicked out though.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 27, 2021)

bimble said:


> Yeah they might get kicked out though.


----------



## Raheem (Dec 27, 2021)

bimble said:


> I don’t really see why they wouldn’t let us come crawling back looking a bit booody stupid, if somehow that was what the country decided to ask for next week.


Cos we're not great learners and, in ten years' time, we'd be threatening to leave again.


----------



## Spymaster (Dec 27, 2021)

bimble said:


> Hungary might join us, that would be nice. Very vindicating.


The fact that they’re in the bloc in the first place should raise eyebrows, but there’s little popular support for a withdrawal there. Austria, Finland and Holland, have sizeable anti-EU political movements and some suggest that up to 50% of Italians want to leave. Those are where the next movements will come from.


----------



## two sheds (Dec 27, 2021)

Wouldn't all the countries have to agree to expel Hungary? I'd have thought it would be blocked by any countries with right wing governments themselves.


----------



## bimble (Dec 27, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Wouldn't all the countries have to agree to expel Hungary? I'd have thought it would be blocked by any countries with right wing governments themselves.


Yeah it’s unlikely. But so is the much anticipated domino effect of everyone rushing to follow our brave lead.


----------



## Spymaster (Dec 27, 2021)

Kicking out Hungary would require principled decisions from the EU, that would create more instability. They’ll just keep treating them like Father Jack.


----------



## philosophical (Dec 27, 2021)

Nothing leavers or anti EU suprastaters think or say has any validity until they come up with a peaceful workable solution to the UK/EU land border.
It has been over five years since the vote and they have come up with fuck all.


----------



## Spymaster (Dec 27, 2021)

bimble said:


> Yeah it’s unlikely. But so is the much anticipated domino effect of everyone rushing to follow our brave lead.


But then the economic Armageddon that you remoniacs were hoping for, and predicting by summer, didn’t happen either!


----------



## RD2003 (Dec 27, 2021)

bimble said:


> Hungary might join us, that would be nice. Very vindicating.


Those damned Hungarians. If you go into a revolving door with an Hungarian behind you, when you come out, he'll be in front of you.


----------



## RD2003 (Dec 27, 2021)

If only people would stop electing the wrong people, and generally voting the wrong way. You can't trust people. It's people who like Coldplay and voted for Hitler.


----------



## Spymaster (Dec 27, 2021)

RD2003 said:


> Those damned Hungarians. If you go into a revolving door with an Hungarian behind you, when you come out, he'll be in front of you.


And he’ll have your watch!

But you’re right. It’s a very telling attitude from remoniacs regarding a fellow EU member. Everything that good is because of the Wonderstate. But not the bad bits.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 27, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> You reckon?
> 
> I’d be willing to bet you that Holland, Austria, and Finland, will have referendums in the next 5 years, probably Italy too.


Yeh to stomp on the idea of leaving once and for all


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 27, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Wouldn't all the countries have to agree to expel Hungary? I'd have thought it would be blocked by any countries with right wing governments themselves.


There isn't a mechanism for expulsion, only sanctions


----------



## RD2003 (Dec 27, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> And he’ll have your watch!
> 
> But you’re right. It’s a very telling attitude from remoniacs regarding a fellow EU member. Everything that good is because of the Wonderstate. Except the bad bits.


The funny thing is, the pro-EU liberals are as elitest as the old Etionians they wring their hands about except they have less money.


----------



## bimble (Dec 27, 2021)

RD2003 said:


> If only people would stop electing the wrong people, and generally voting the wrong way. You can't trust people. It's people who like Coldplay and voted for Hitler.


You can criticise every other vote the great people of great Britian have done, every one apart from the referendum & boaty mcboatface.  yes.


----------



## bimble (Dec 27, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> And he’ll have your watch!
> 
> But you’re right. It’s a very telling attitude from remoniacs regarding a fellow EU member. Everything that good is because of the Wonderstate. Except the bad bits.


I don’t think your hearts in it anymore. These last few jibes are very poor.


----------



## RD2003 (Dec 27, 2021)

bimble said:


> You can criticise every other vote the great people of great Britian have done, every one apart from the referendum & boaty mcboatface.  yes.


Should never have been allowed the vote in the first place.


----------



## Spymaster (Dec 27, 2021)

RD2003 said:


> Should never have been allowed the vote in the first place.


Or keep voting until we get the right result.


----------



## bimble (Dec 27, 2021)

RD2003 said:


> Should never have been allowed the vote in the first place.


We we only given it to save the Conservative party.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 27, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> The fact that they’re in the bloc in the first place should raise eyebrows, but there’s little popular support for a withdrawal there. Austria, Finland and Holland, have sizeable anti-EU political movements and some suggest that up to 50% of Italians want to leave. Those are where the next movements will come from.


Come on Spy, you can do better than this...all this stuff sounds like the bilge that Farage was coming out with in the peak period of pre-referendum falsehood peddling.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Dec 27, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Or keep voting until we get the right result.


You mean like ‘75?


----------



## Spymaster (Dec 27, 2021)

sleaterkinney said:


> You mean like ‘75?


The fall of Saigon?


----------



## Ax^ (Dec 27, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> The fact that they’re in the bloc in the first place should raise eyebrows, but there’s little popular support for a withdrawal there. Austria, Finland and Holland, have sizeable anti-EU political movements and some suggest that up to 50% of Italians want to leave. Those are where the next movements will come from.



50.precent of Italians cannot move out of their parents houses let alone the eu


----------



## Spymaster (Dec 27, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> 50.precent of Italians cannot move out of their parents houses let alone the eu



There's a fair bit of remoniac racism going on today. First bimble's hatred of the Hungarians, now this anti-Italian stuff from you.

I wonder what Badgers thinks of the French?


----------



## brogdale (Dec 27, 2021)

But...hold on a minute...from the people that brought you an "Arctic blast" in August and dead Diana's face in the sky...


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 27, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> There's a fair bit of remoniac racism going on today. First bimble's hatred of the Hungarians, now this anti-Italian stuff from you.
> 
> I wonder what Badgers thinks of the French?


but they like their food


----------



## Ax^ (Dec 27, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> There's a fair bit of remoniac racism going on today. First bimble's hatred of the Hungarians, now this anti-Italian stuff from you.
> 
> I wonder what Badgers thinks of the French?



where you not hint leaving to eu to was to get away from the control of those pesky Germans not long ago


----------



## two sheds (Dec 27, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> There's a fair bit of remoniac racism going on today. First bimble's hatred of the Hungarians, now this anti-Italian stuff from you.
> 
> I wonder what Badgers thinks of the French?


whereas leavers just hate all foreigners? 

/in with the false accusations


----------



## bimble (Dec 27, 2021)

My grandad was Hungarian. He was pretty great, always wore bow ties and farted a lot. it used to be quite easy to wind up remoaners but this is pathetic, nul points, where’s your mojo gone.


----------



## krtek a houby (Dec 27, 2021)

brogdale said:


> But...hold on a minute...from the people that brought you an "Arctic blast" in August and dead Diana's face in the sky...
> 
> View attachment 303271


A mere 15 years to go.


----------



## Spymaster (Dec 27, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> where you not hint leaving to eu to was to get away from the control of those pesky Germans not long ago



Nope, not me. That was probably brogdale


----------



## Badgers (Dec 27, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> There's a fair bit of remoniac racism going on today. First bimble's hatred of the Hungarians, now this anti-Italian stuff from you.
> 
> I wonder what Badgers thinks of the French?


Love France and don't dislike/like the French any more that the good old British.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 27, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Nope, not me. That was probably brogdale


eh?


----------



## bimble (Dec 27, 2021)

1st January is when the custom checks come in for 95% of imports from Europe isn't it. We will only be able to truly celebrate our freedom after that i think. Or maybe after July next year when some more of the grace periods end. 
HMRC urges businesses to prepare for January customs changes


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 27, 2021)

bimble said:


> 1st January is when the custom checks come in for 95% of imports from Europe isn't it. We will only be able to truly celebrate our freedom after that i think. HMRC urges businesses to prepare for January customs changes


I hope you've stocked up on champagne in advance of the change


----------



## bimble (Dec 27, 2021)

Maybe that’s part of why Lord Frost buggered off, if there are any issues with imports it’ll be nothing to do with him it’ll be someone else’s brexit.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 27, 2021)

philosophical said:


> If you voted leave you are a nasty deliberately mendacious cunt who joins other flag shagging cunts like Rees Mogg and Mark Francois.
> Yesterday we saw the Webb telescope launched, an example of international cooperation, cost a third of the Tory failed, wasted (and largely stolen) Track and Trace money.
> As we enter the new rules of 2022 I hope the division between leavers and remainers gets deeper and becomes more bitter and confrontational.


A cunts Christmas message. Should have been filmed and broadcast.


----------



## Carvaged (Dec 27, 2021)

bimble said:


> 1st January is when the custom checks come in for 95% of imports from Europe isn't it. We will only be able to truly celebrate our freedom after that i think. Or maybe after July next year when some more of the grace periods end.
> HMRC urges businesses to prepare for January customs changes



Nah, freedum day is when we're a 100% autarkic economy and have stopped trading with the rest of the world entirely.


----------



## Badgers (Dec 27, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> I hope you've stocked up on champagne in advance of the change


Pints of?


----------



## TopCat (Dec 27, 2021)

RD2003 said:


> Regardless of what opinion polls say, I can't think of anybody I know who still mentions Brexit apart from one or two Remain weirdos, who weren't even weirdos before the Leave victory made them lose all sense of proportion or rationality. They are the types to sport that silly 'Still European' sticker. Presumably they think leaving the EU means that we've drifted onto a different continent entirely.


My dad brought up Brexit over Christmas dinner.


----------



## Badgers (Dec 27, 2021)

bimble said:


> Maybe that’s part of why Lord Frost buggered off, if there are any issues with imports it’ll be nothing to do with him it’ll be someone else’s brexit.


Yeah. Truss is already a laughing stock and out of her depth. She will take the flak for this failing fucking shit fest.


----------



## bimble (Dec 27, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Yeah. Truss is already a laughing stock and out of her depth. She will take the flak for this failing fucking shit fest.


I still think she’ll be PM.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 27, 2021)

TopCat said:


> My dad brought up Brexit over Christmas dinner.


rEUflux ?


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 27, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Love France and don't dislike/like the French any more that the good old British.


what about the bad young British?


----------



## two sheds (Dec 27, 2021)

TopCat said:


> My dad brought up Brexit over Christmas dinner.


better than the other way round


----------



## Spymaster (Dec 27, 2021)

bimble said:


> 1st January is when the custom checks come in for 95% of imports from Europe isn't it.



We’re doomed! Doomed!


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 27, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> We’re doomed! Doomed!


I must get one of those 2020  Remainer Calendars , hopefully, will have Lord Adonis picture somewhere in it.


----------



## Flavour (Dec 27, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> The fact that they’re in the bloc in the first place should raise eyebrows, but there’s little popular support for a withdrawal there. Austria, Finland and Holland, have sizeable anti-EU political movements and some suggest that up to 50% of Italians want to leave. Those are where the next movements will come from.



Re: Italy, I don't think it's looking very likely, despite popular anti-EU sentiment. In the UK this anti-EU sentiment was channeled through UKIP, who were eating the Tory vote so much that the Tories gave the referendum on membership. There is no equivalent in Italy and neither of the two major right-wing parties (Lega and Fratelli) spend a significant amount of their time criticizing the EU or using it as a scapegoat. Fratelli more so than Lega but I don't think promising a referendum on EU membership would be seen as a big vote winner, so for the moment they won't bother. As much as many Italians would like to leave, there are also many who are utterly convinced that the country would collapse outside the EU. 

The major sentiment is against the Euro currency more so than the EU as a whole. I think if there was a referendum on EU membership as a whole then _remain _would win here. But if there was an option to stay in the EU while getting rid of the Euro that would probably win. Of course, given the way the Euro was structured, as an integral part of the EU, this is practically impossible. The death of the Euro currency (certain if Italy were to leave it) would also be the death of the EU


----------



## brogdale (Dec 27, 2021)




----------



## brogdale (Dec 27, 2021)

Crab it while you can!


----------



## brogdale (Dec 27, 2021)

Oh, come on...worth a few squid?


----------



## Ax^ (Dec 27, 2021)

another win for Brexit, bailing out the fishing industry with 75 mil due the impact of leaving the eu

as reported by the daily express


----------



## MysteryGuest (Dec 27, 2021)

Hake back control!


----------



## brogdale (Dec 27, 2021)

Just a ploy to get Sturgeon on board?


----------



## Carvaged (Dec 27, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> I must get one of those 2020  Remainer Calendars , hopefully, will have Lord Adonis picture somewhere in it.



Don't forget Clegg. He takes pride of place in my candle-lit Remoaniac worshipper's shrine, flanked by Cammy-poo and the dashing Lordonis (as us true believers call him), legs at half-mast. A bit like this, minus Brown...


----------



## Serge Forward (Dec 27, 2021)

The UK flexes its economic mussels


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 27, 2021)

About time we sealed the deal, for to long the French have been selling us something fishy. I can't wait for the Italians to tuna in to see what they say.


----------



## philosophical (Dec 27, 2021)

None of the people in that photograph above have a solution to a post leave land border between the UK and the EU.
They didn’t have to. The nature of that land border is down to those who promoted and voted leave.
And it is now over five years of waiting for the leave voters to come up with something that honours what was voted for.


----------



## Ax^ (Dec 27, 2021)

look if the majority of leave voters did not care about how wales or scotland voted its a bit of a push to ask them to care about
the situation in ireland

the tory party just got around it by throwing money are foster whilst stermount was suspended at the time due to the sniff of corruption


----------



## isvicthere? (Dec 27, 2021)

RD2003 said:


> If only people would stop electing the wrong people, and generally voting the wrong way. You can't trust people. It's people who like Coldplay and voted for Hitler.



But people like lager and nuts!


----------



## Ax^ (Dec 27, 2021)

not sure if im more annoyed with people who like coldplay


or people who voted for Boris


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 27, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> look if the majority of leave voters did not care about how wales or scotland voted its a bit of a push to ask them to care about
> the situation in ireland
> 
> the tory party just got around it by throwing money are foster whilst stermount was suspended at the time due to the sniff of corruption



Reminder, the residents of Wales voted Leave. The government of Wales repeatedly pretending this wasn't the case has been one of the more irritating aspects of this.

"but the _real_ Welsh didn't vote leave" yadayada I know, yawn.


----------



## Ax^ (Dec 27, 2021)

and england did not care 


hth


----------



## Ax^ (Dec 27, 2021)

good thing that brexit broke the westminster focus of politics in this  country...

changing the status quo


----------



## philosophical (Dec 27, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> look if the majority of leave voters did not care about how wales or scotland voted its a bit of a push to ask them to care about
> the situation in ireland
> 
> the tory party just got around it by throwing money are foster whilst stermount was suspended at the time due to the sniff of corruption


Whatever it looks like we will never know. 17+million people voted leave, for 17+ million reasons. So what?
They deliberately voted for a separation, therefore a differential between the UK and the EU, a border. Part of that border is a land border, overshadowed by the international treaty which is the Belfast Agreement.
I am not asking them to care about what they voted for, but to acknowledge it and sort it out for the future.
Now over five years of nothing from the leave voters, it is down to them, not remain voters.
I think they’re all cunts because of that nothing, and as time passes their cuntishness deepens.


----------



## Ax^ (Dec 27, 2021)

being from dublin if we get the 6 counties back due to the uk's indifference

i'm not going to be fighting that hard


----------



## Spymaster (Dec 27, 2021)

philosophical said:


> Now over five years of nothing from the leave voters, it is down to them, not remain voters.



Don't be ridiculous.


----------



## philosophical (Dec 27, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Don't be ridiculous.


Not as ridiculous as any sense at all that remain voters should sort out leaves mess.


----------



## AnnO'Neemus (Dec 27, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Reminder, the residents of Wales voted Leave. The government of Wales repeatedly pretending this wasn't the case has been one of the more irritating aspects of this.
> 
> "but the _real_ Welsh didn't vote leave" yadayada I know, yawn.


Bit like Cornwall, innit? 

Conservatives blaming economic fall-out or the industrial decline of fishing, mining and farming industries on the EU. And people fell for it - even though Wales and Cornwall have benefited from a lot of EU funding. 

The Welsh and Cornish folk were sold a pig in a poke by the Conservatives and Leave campaigns.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 28, 2021)

Brexit fishing deal: Kirkella owners 'devastated' by UK-Norway pact
					

The owners of the UK's biggest fishing vessel say the post-Brexit deal with Norway is not enough.



					www.bbc.co.uk
				






AnnO'Neemus said:


> Bit like Cornwall, innit?
> 
> Conservatives blaming economic fall-out or the industrial decline of fishing, mining and farming industries on the EU. And people fell for it - even though Wales and Cornwall have benefited from a lot of EU funding.
> 
> The Welsh and Cornish folk were sold a pig in a poke by the Conservatives and Leave campaigns.



Been a solid 40 year campaign to deflect all blame for anything the various governments have done to fuck over the British people on to the shoulders of the EU. From papers to parties themselves.

Absolute shit show.


----------



## AnnO'Neemus (Dec 28, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Brexit fishing deal: Kirkella owners 'devastated' by UK-Norway pact
> 
> 
> The owners of the UK's biggest fishing vessel say the post-Brexit deal with Norway is not enough.
> ...


Tbh, though, surely the fishing industry is fucked up from a sustainability perspective when you have one massive freezer-trawler ship that's responsible for catching 8-12 per cent of cod sold in all the UK's fish and chip shops?!?

Haven't the fishing industry partly shot themselves in the foot when you have one ship that's catching around a tenth of cod sold in chippies around the country? 

I mean, what's the equivalent, proportionally? One farm producing 10 per cent of all potatoes sold to make chips in chippies? How big would that farm have to be? (I don't know the answer, btw, but I'd imagine the answer would be 'fucking huge'.)

It's like property development and building high rise flats, it's all about greed and building bigger (not necessarily better) than the competitors. But then there comes a point where it all comes unstuck.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 28, 2021)

AnnO'Neemus said:


> Tbh, though, surely the fishing industry is fucked up from a sustainability perspective when you have one massive freezer-trawler ship that's responsible for catching 8-12 per cent of cod sold in all the UK's fish and chip shops?!?
> 
> Haven't the fishing industry partly shot themselves in the foot when you have one ship that's catching around a tenth of cod sold in chippies around the country?
> 
> ...



We've absolutely fucked the sea over when it comes to sustainability. The grand banks cod was a minor foretaste of what we've done the last couple of decades


----------



## AnnO'Neemus (Dec 28, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> We've absolutely fucked the sea over when it comes to sustainability. The grand banks cod was a minor foretaste of what we've done the last couple of decades


Like, as in agree, not like, obvs.


----------



## Humberto (Dec 28, 2021)

It's a clash of interests, isn't it? Whereas personalities, abstention and commandeering of emotion all have their part in the result and the consequences.


----------



## Humberto (Dec 28, 2021)

You don't respect a 'difference of opinion' with a Randian, for example. You can't reason with them.


----------



## bimble (Dec 29, 2021)

Brilliant, imagine if we were still lumped in with all those other countries having to accept the same deals as they collectively get.








						UK steel industry braces for slump in trade as US reduces tariffs on EU
					

Tariffs remain on UK exports to US as European Union rivals gain a 25% price advantage from New Year’s Day




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## brogdale (Dec 29, 2021)

bimble said:


> Brilliant, imagine if we were still lumped in with all those other countries having to accept the same deals as they collectively get.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don't think Biden will alter this situation until and unless the leave-loons give up on their NI protocol wrecking nonsense.


----------



## stdP (Dec 29, 2021)

brogdale said:


> I don't think Biden will alter this situation until and unless the leave-loons give up on their NI protocol wrecking nonsense.



Regardless of the details of the NI protocol, most of the fooferal around the "special relationship" was that the UK was the pathway for US markets in to europe (at first military, then financial and other things) so we were worth keeping sweet for that reason alone. No US president is going to jeopardise a deal with the EU for the sake of the comparatively piddling UK market.


----------



## bimble (Dec 29, 2021)

yep. Biden knew exactly what he was doing with this tweet back in October, which i think wasn't really about France.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 29, 2021)

I am still very glad we left.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 29, 2021)

bimble said:


> yep. Biden knew exactly what he was doing with this tweet back in October, which i think wasn't really about France.
> 
> View attachment 303626



Then he fucked them over and sold Australia nuclear subs


----------



## philosophical (Dec 29, 2021)

TopCat said:


> I am still very glad we left.


We haven’t left if the ‘we’ you intimate is the ‘we’ suggested by the ballot paper.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 29, 2021)

TopCat said:


> I am still very glad we left.


Left what?


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 29, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Left what?


Childish things behind


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Dec 29, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Then he fucked them over and sold Australia nuclear subs




He had already done it, bimble’s quote was Biden trying to placate Macron. bimble is trying to make it in to a Brexit thing when it was most clearly not, a cracking example which is why this is the most toxic thread on the boards.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 29, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Childish things behind


I'd be hard pressed to identify any aspect of neoliberal shite that we've left behind.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 29, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> He had already done it, bimble’s quote was Biden trying to make amends. bimble is trying to make it in to a Brexit thing when it was most clearly not, a cracking example which is why this is the most toxic thread on the boards.


The most toxic threads on these boards are the trans/terf ones


----------



## two sheds (Dec 29, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> He had already done it, bimble’s quote was Biden trying to placate Macron. bimble is trying to make it in to a Brexit thing when it was most clearly not, a cracking example which is why this is the most toxic thread on the boards.



We've not seen the half of it yet  









						English cricket is in disarray – and it’s a metaphor for the whole country | Martin Kettle
					

Cricket is ruled by upper-class white men, deluded about their abilities. It’s hard not to see a parallel between the Ashes shambles and Brexit, says Guardian columnist Martin Kettle




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Dec 29, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> The most toxic threads on these boards are the trans/terf ones




Which is why I have not posted on a single one, in spite of having a daughter who considers herself trans but I can’t ask the community here for help/advice cos of the way that shit goes.


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 29, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> The most toxic threads on these boards are the trans/terf ones


Surely not before Brexit, everything was better before then .


----------



## Yossarian (Dec 29, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> The most toxic threads on these boards are the trans/terf ones



If you wanted to trigger a total board meltdown you could try a "Will Brexit affect the rights of trans motorists?" thread.


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Dec 29, 2021)

I would say this thread isn't anywhere near as toxic as the trans threads because no one really gives a fuck outside of this bubble, if Bimble is pishing her pants about an empty shelf while the rest of us are dealing with covid then no one really cares. I don't think urban quite realises that people still balls deep in the brexit thing after 2 years of this hellish pandemic are just cranks. Me seeing Brogdale- and apparently sound person- on here day in day out is just fucking WEIRD.  I've seen some pure FBPE shit on fb and even half of those guys abandoned ship when covid hit. 

Get a fucking grip, guys.


----------



## Gramsci (Dec 29, 2021)

19sixtysix said:


> Back to the smaller more mundane total fuckups that are presented with Brexit. Getting goods shipped between here and germany. Just when you think you've got paperwork sorted another identical box being returned after repairs spends two weeks in Stanstead before being shipped back to Germany.



Company I sometimes work for regularly moves stuff between France/ Italy/ UK. Its had to employ extra person to deal with the extra paperwork. Even then things can go wrong. One lorry got held up overnight due to oversight ( not the fault of the company) in paperwork.

With 1st January few days away its only going to get more complicated.

Extra customs checks at borders from the first on January.

This was predictable consequence of Brexit. Tories had years to sort this out.

It could be argued it will only affect certain industries. ( fashion in this case) So who cares. They need to get with the programme of Brexit etc.

When people were encouraged to vote for Brexit was this really explained to them? I don't think so. It was all about getting control of our borders ( less immigrants) and getting back our sovereignty.

For some SME and those who depend on them for a living Brexit hasn't and won't be a good thing.

Maybe in long term this is all a price worth paying. So far I haven't seen anything positive.


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Dec 29, 2021)

Gramsci said:


> Company I sometimes work for regularly moves stuff between France/ Italy/ UK. Its had to employ extra person to deal with the extra paperwork. Even then things can go wrong. One lorry got held up overnight due to oversight ( not the fault of the company) in paperwork.
> 
> With 1st January few days away its only going to get more complicated.
> 
> ...


People voted leave for their own reasons and they differ widely- let me ask you when you voted remain was it explained to you that the institution you were asked to support was responsible for the deaths of 30,000 migrants at the time?


----------



## Maltin (Dec 29, 2021)

Gramsci said:


> Company I sometimes work for regularly moves stuff between France/ Italy/ UK. Its had to employ extra person to deal with the extra paperwork. Even then things can go wrong. One lorry got held up overnight due to oversight ( not the fault of the company) in paperwork.
> 
> With 1st January few days away its only going to get more complicated.
> 
> ...


Didn’t you read the previous post? COVID is the only thing anyone is interested in now. Get a grip!


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Dec 29, 2021)

Maltin said:


> Didn’t you read the previous post? COVID is the only thing anyone is interested in now. Get a grip!


Very childish response, there is space for linking things to the leave vote but this isn't the place for it. This thread is a dead end.


----------



## Yossarian (Dec 29, 2021)

Maltin said:


> Didn’t you read the previous post? COVID is the only thing anyone is interested in now. Get a grip!



It appears that poster has now been sucked back in.


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Dec 29, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> It appears that poster has now been sucked back in.


who me?


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Dec 29, 2021)

Yeah I'll speak for maybe 2 hours but this thread has been going years, that's the thing I'm identifying as a problem. It's not normal guys, let it go.


----------



## Gramsci (Dec 29, 2021)

HoratioCuthbert said:


> People voted leave for their own reasons and they differ widely- let me ask you when you voted remain was it explained to you that the institution you were asked to support was responsible for the deaths of 30,000 migrants at the time?



My partner is a immigrant and many of my ( working class) workmates are either immigrants or second generation.

Brexit was pushed by the right in this country for years by Farage and UKIP.

I remember at time of referendum white working class Londoner I now whose partner is Chinese asked me about which way to vote as he was swaying. I explained to him that there are two sides. 

Some time after I bumped into him. Told me he voted Remain as in run up to referendum there was so much anti immigrant stuff. Even though that was about EU migrants he correctly saw that this was about immigration in general.

So voted Remain. As I did.

On EU being racist. TBF if EU ended tomorrow I don't see countries lile Poland introducing immigration policies that are any more restrictive than EU. There are voters across European countries who are going to vote for parties that restrict immigration whether they are in EU or not. 

BTW since UK has left I don't see things improving for migrants trying to come to this country. So don't see how Brexit has helped.

Brexit was pushed by the right for years. As my workmate saw anti immigrant sentiment in this country would only be bolstered by Brexit vote.


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Dec 29, 2021)

Gramsci said:


> My partner is a immigrant and many of my ( working class) workmates are either immigrants or second generation.
> 
> Brexit was pushed by the right in this country for years by Farage and UKIP.
> 
> ...


I'm already aware that you think those living on the continent shouldn't have a fairly decent level of social democracy operating where they live on the basis that your anecdotal evidence proves most of them are racist. I've read your other posts on this subject.   I can't really be arsed with dealing with your other sentences here, I voted leave. I know sound people that voted remain. I know arseholes that voted leave. I know arseholes that voted remain. Politics for me spans way beyond this one vote in 2016.


----------



## MrSki (Dec 29, 2021)

HoratioCuthbert said:


> I would say this thread isn't anywhere near as toxic as the trans threads because no one really gives a fuck outside of this bubble, if Bimble is pishing her pants about an empty shelf while the rest of us are dealing with covid then no one really cares. I don't think urban quite realises that people still balls deep in the brexit thing after 2 years of this hellish pandemic are just cranks. Me seeing Brogdale- and apparently sound person- on here day in day out is just fucking WEIRD.  I've seen some pure FBPE shit on fb and even half of those guys abandoned ship when covid hit.
> 
> Get a fucking grip, guys.


Do you realise this thread was started almost a year after the pandemic started? It was the Government's hunger for popularity that stopped them delaying a political & economic transition that meant they had their eyes on two balls at once & dropped them both. 

People have to try and live through both & surely it is okay to discuss both?


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 29, 2021)

HoratioCuthbert said:


> I'm already aware that you think those living on the continent shouldn't have a fairly decent level of social democracy operating where they live on the basis that your anecdotal evidence proves most of them are racist. I've read your other posts on this subject.   I can't really be arsed with dealing with your other sentences here, I voted leave. I know sound people that voted remain. I know arseholes that voted leave. I know arseholes that voted remain. Politics for me spans way beyond this one vote in 2016.



Sure but brexits far more long lasting than one vote. The ripples will last decades.

It's fine to occasionally pop up and say look at this shower of cunts and this direct lie, it doesn't make you full fbpe loon spud. I'm not going to give the government a pass just because I can't change leave winning.


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Dec 29, 2021)

MrSki said:


> Do you realise this thread was started almost a year after the pandemic started? It was the Government's hunger for popularity that stopped them delaying a political & economic transition that meant they had their eyes on two balls at once & dropped them both.
> 
> People have to try and live through both & surely it is okay to discuss both?


Yes, I know when it was started I'm very familiar with urban. You've not understood the point of my post, and your contributions to this thread have been consistently pointless to boot.


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Dec 29, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Sure but brexits far more long lasting than one vote. The ripples will last decades.
> 
> It's fine to occasionally pop up and say look at this shower of cunts and this direct lie, it doesn't make you full fbpe loon spud. I'm not going to give the government a pass just because I can't change leave winning.


The problem is you are assuming everything that happens in the UK from 2016 onwards is a result of brexit, when the forces in operation right now are numerous and quite strong. Look at your analysis of the lorry driver crisis- IT'S BREXIT! and yet shortages in Poland and Germany were worse than ours.


----------



## Flavour (Dec 29, 2021)

HoratioCuthbert said:


> Yeah I'll speak for maybe 2 hours but this thread has been going years, that's the thing I'm identifying as a problem. It's not normal guys, let it go.


there are lots of posters who are living with the consequences of brexit and continue to have their lives made difficult by it on a daily basis.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 29, 2021)

HoratioCuthbert said:


> The problem is you are assuming everything that happens in the UK from 2016 onwards is a result of brexit, when the forces in operation right now are numerous and quite strong. Look at your analysis of the lorry driver crisis- IT'S BREXIT! and yet shortages in Poland and Germany were worse than ours.



I didn’t know I reported heavily on the hgv crisis. Hope I got paid for it.


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Dec 29, 2021)

Flavour said:


> there are lots of posters who are living with the consequences of brexit and continue to have their lives made difficult by it on a daily basis.


Sure, I don't think this thead serves them well, though.


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Dec 29, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> I didn’t know I reported heavily on the hgv crisis. Hope I got paid for it.


it was a sort of royal YOU. I said this thread was shite, you defended it. So I then just used shorthand from there.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 29, 2021)

HoratioCuthbert said:


> it was a sort of royal YOU. I said this thread was shite, you defended it. So I then just used shorthand from there.



I shall practice my curtesy


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Dec 29, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> I shall practice my curtesy


Yeah I mean i was taking the piss but a new curtesy for the working class would be fun


----------



## MrSki (Dec 29, 2021)

HoratioCuthbert said:


> Yes, I know when it was started I'm very familiar with urban. You've not understood the point of my post, and your contributions to this thread have been consistently pointless to boot.


Thank you very much for your constructive overview of my posts. 

A lot of my posts have been pointing out the stupidity of Brexit but I suppose you don't think Brexit was a stupid idea? Especially the timing of its implementation.

If you think Brexit is great than you are going to find anyone who is willing to disagree with your ideas is pointless. 

Don't talk about how shite Brexit is because you should be focusing on the pandemic when Brexit was introduced in the middle of a pandemic?

Really is that what you are trying to say or have I once again misunderstood your post?


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Dec 29, 2021)

MrSki said:


> Thank you very much for your constructive overview of my posts.
> 
> A lot of my posts have been pointing out the stupidity of Brexit but I suppose you don't think Brexit was a stupid idea? Especially the timing of its implementation.
> 
> ...


We have lived under neoliberal capitalism for as long as I've been alive. Yes I voted leave. I could have easily voted remain in slightly different circs. How someone voted doesn't matter to me at the end of the day, because real politics = everything around that. I know both leave and remain voters that don't differ from me remotely in terms of their politics.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 29, 2021)

HoratioCuthbert said:


> We have lived under neoliberal capitalism for as long as I've been alive. Yes I voted leave. I could have easily voted remain in slightly different circs. How someone voted doesn't matter to me at the end of the day, because real politics = everything around that. I know both leave and remain voters that don't differ from me remotely in terms of their politics.


That's what makes the thread so compulsive.


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Dec 29, 2021)

brogdale said:


> That's what makes the thread so compulsive.


nah you've got shit taste man, you should take up corrie instead. merry christmas


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Dec 29, 2021)

I'm away and going to shut this window, I didn't mean to get in a huge debate and I can't be arsed, genuinely. Good night


----------



## brogdale (Dec 29, 2021)

HoratioCuthbert said:


> I'm away and going to shut this window, I didn't mean to get in a huge debate and I can't be arsed, genuinely. Good night


Night HC


----------



## MrSki (Dec 29, 2021)

HoratioCuthbert said:


> We have lived under neoliberal capitalism for as long as I've been alive. Yes I voted leave. I could have easily voted remain in slightly different circs. How someone voted doesn't matter to me at the end of the day, because real politics = everything around that. I know both leave and remain voters that don't differ from me remotely in terms of their politics.


I agree that over five years later means you don't need to feel any guilt about the way you voted. I mean it was not down to one vote but to still try to claim that it has, so far, benefitted anyone apart from tax avoiders is a bit dodgy.
As you said yourself above the shortage of HGV drivers & their increase in pay is not really a direct impact of Brexit.


----------



## Calamity1971 (Dec 29, 2021)

HoratioCuthbert said:


> nah you've got shit taste man, you should take up corrie instead. merry christmas


It'll just depress him, you seen the bare shelves in Dev's?


----------



## brogdale (Dec 30, 2021)

Taking back control of borders is catching on, tbf...



bit of a shame for all those brexit-barmy ex-pats with their chateaus


----------



## philosophical (Dec 30, 2021)

If people are fucked up by the leave vote, then the leave voters can sort it out as far as I am concerned.
All the poseurs going on about neo liberalism or sovereignty and the like, not only have had the theory wrong
but they shrug regarding the practicals and suggest it is up to others to sort the problems out.
Even weirder is the notion that says it is all over and remainers should get with the programme, what programme?
All out foreigner hating? 
I wonder how comfortable leave voters are in admitting their vote, how many are still unashamed about what they have caused, how many are proud of the state of things.


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 30, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Taking back control of borders is catching on, tbf...
> 
> View attachment 303713
> 
> bit of a shame for all those brexit-barmy ex-pats with their chateaus


Devastating news for the readership base of the Guardian .


----------



## Yossarian (Dec 30, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Devastating news for the readership base of the Guardian .


 
Are you a Briton with a home in the EU, sir?


----------



## gosub (Dec 30, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Taking back control of borders is catching on, tbf...
> 
> View attachment 303713
> 
> bit of a shame for all those brexit-barmy ex-pats with their chateaus


Is that going to apply to haulage as well?


----------



## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Dec 30, 2021)

Gramsci said:


> BTW since UK has left I don't see things improving for migrants trying to come to this country. So don't see how Brexit has helped.


Oddly, for something trumpeted so hard as a reason for leaving the EU, it was  never a thing that needed a Brexit . . we could have made the immigration changes, and tighten boarder controls while still EU members, (as many other countries did) we just didn't (I assume because it was daft, and too much paperwork).


----------



## brogdale (Dec 30, 2021)

gosub said:


> Is that going to apply to haulage as well?


Unlikely, unless Macron wants to starve the population and destabilise the state.


----------



## gosub (Dec 30, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Unlikely, unless Macron wants to starve the population and destabilise the state.


Nope I think he just wants to mitigate as much risk as he can from covid, and he can't with regards EU nationals from other countries


----------



## brogdale (Dec 30, 2021)

gosub said:


> Nope I think he just wants to mitigate as much risk as he can from covid, and he can't with regards EU nationals from other countries


You asked about haulage.


----------



## bimble (Dec 30, 2021)

Lol at the idea that brexit is done and only weirdos would ever mention it again. It’s not even really started yet


----------



## gosub (Dec 30, 2021)

brogdale said:


> You asked about haulage.


I did coz I'm not sure as its being done under public health that there will be a divergence though agree would be a mess if there isnt


----------



## MrCurry (Dec 30, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Taking back control of borders is catching on, tbf...
> 
> View attachment 303713
> 
> bit of a shame for all those brexit-barmy ex-pats with their chateaus


Just to point out it’s not just second homers caught out by this. Anyone who lives in an EU country, who might have chosen to visit the UK by car for Christmas is now being turned back by the French, regardless of whether they can show documentary proof of legal right of residence in an EU country (applied for and granted via the Brexit withdrawal agreement process). Only French residence permits are accepted.

I have limited sympathy, because they shouldn’t be travelling in a pandemic anyway, but there is such a thing as essential travel which presumably covers some cases who are currently getting stranded somewhere when they’re just trying to get home (a home within the EU).

In any case, in the post Brexit world where mail ordering anything into the EU countries from U.K. has become more expensive, and in my experience sometimes literally causes months of customs delays, many more people are probably choosing to drive back to load up with marmite, bisto & other U.K. shopping.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Dec 30, 2021)

HoratioCuthbert said:


> I would say this thread isn't anywhere near as toxic as the trans threads because no one really gives a fuck outside of this bubble, if Bimble is pishing her pants about an empty shelf while the rest of us are dealing with covid then no one really cares. I don't think urban quite realises that people still balls deep in the brexit thing after 2 years of this hellish pandemic are just cranks. Me seeing Brogdale- and apparently sound person- on here day in day out is just fucking WEIRD.  I've seen some pure FBPE shit on fb and even half of those guys abandoned ship when covid hit.
> 
> Get a fucking grip, guys.


Tbf it comes up regularly as a topic of conversation with people I know, and a lot of them are not political in the u75 sense. 

The steel situation, the Aussie and nz trade deals are all stuff that will affect people, of course brexit should be judged against the promises made, but I can understand why you wouldn’t want to talk about it if you voted leave.


----------



## stdP (Dec 30, 2021)

Some restrained comment from Barnier's replacement, Maroš Šefčovič:



> DER SPIEGEL: Britain's Office for Budget Responsibility recently calculated that Brexit will cost the UK twice as much as the coronavirus pandemic. Are there times when you just want to shout over the English Channel: "We told you so!"?
> 
> Šefčovič: Schadenfreude isn’t helpful in building a strategic partnership with an important neighbor. I certainly sometimes feel regret when I look at how much time our best civil servants spent trying to prevent a chaotic Brexit and what we could have instead accomplished with that energy. But we have to look forward. Democracies should stick together and work together for climate protection, fair and free trade and peace. But we are still talking to the British government about customs controls and other things that we thought would be settled when the Northern Ireland Protocol was agreed in December 2020.
> 
> ...











						European Commission Vice President Maroš Šefčovič: "London Has Breached a Great Deal of Trust"
					

In an interview, European Union Commission Vice-President Maros Šefčovič discusses the troubled ongoing Brexit negotiations with Britain, even after it has left the bloc, and the tough negotiations over a new agreement between the EU and Switzerland.




					www.spiegel.de


----------



## bimble (Dec 30, 2021)

sleaterkinney said:


> Tbf it comes up regularly as a topic of conversation with people I know, and a lot of them are not political in the u75 sense.
> 
> The steel situation, the Aussie and nz trade deals are all stuff that will affect people, of course brexit should be judged against the promises made, but I can understand why you wouldn’t want to talk about it if you voted leave.


No no, you & they are only allowed to talk about covid. Nothing else. Boris Johnson never talks about brexit anymore and we should follow his lead.


----------



## contadino (Dec 30, 2021)

bimble said:


> No no, you & they are only allowed to talk about covid. Nothing else. Boris Johnson never talks about brexit anymore and we should follow his lead.


Moreover, the civil service have been told to no longer refer to Brexit or the transition period, and instead use dates as milestones. It was such a good idea that it should be wiped from history.

ETA: source today's torygraph front page: Newspaper headlines: 'Guilty Ghislaine' and 'testing in tatters'


----------



## bimble (Dec 30, 2021)

contadino said:


> Moreover, the civil service have been told to no longer refer to Brexit or the transition period, and instead use dates as milestones. It was such a good idea that it should be wiped from history.
> 
> ETA: source today's torygraph front page: Newspaper headlines: 'Guilty Ghislaine' and 'testing in tatters'


That’s odd. Get Brexit Done is what they campaigned with you’d think they’d want to talk about it loads.


----------



## contadino (Dec 30, 2021)

bimble said:


> That’s odd. Get Brexit Done is what they campaigned with you’d think they’d want to talk about it loads.


Brexit is now polling worse than Herpes so time to try and sweep it under the carpet. Done or not.


----------



## gosub (Dec 31, 2021)

France suspends rule denying British residents of other EU countries transit
					

Government says border officials will show tolerance toward those who had gone back to UK for Christmas




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 31, 2021)

gosub said:


> France suspends rule denying British residents of other EU countries transit
> 
> 
> Government says border officials will show tolerance toward those who had gone back to UK for Christmas
> ...


What a terrible response by Macron to the support that continuity remainers on here have given him over the years.


----------



## bimble (Dec 31, 2021)

Happy new year to this thread in particular.


----------



## Badgers (Dec 31, 2021)




----------



## two sheds (Dec 31, 2021)

So that's for anyone importing or exporting? Including people who sell across e-bay for example?


----------



## philosophical (Dec 31, 2021)

As far as I can tell from the government guidelines, anybody can import anything into the UK from the EU with no tariffs, paperwork, checks or sanctions.
Across land.
Anybody found any government guidelines that says that ain’t so?


----------



## Badgers (Dec 31, 2021)

two sheds said:


> So that's for anyone importing or exporting? Including people who sell across e-bay for example?


On paper. Yes.


----------



## bimble (Dec 31, 2021)

philosophical said:


> As far as I can tell from the government guidelines, anybody can import anything into the UK from the EU with no tariffs, paperwork, checks or sanctions.
> Across land.
> Anybody found any government guidelines that says that ain’t so?


Until tomorrow yes. It’s been a grace period, delayed i think three times.








						Full customs controls start on 1 January 2022
					

HMRC are urging businesses to prepare for customs changes that come into effect on 1 January 2022.




					www.gov.uk


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 31, 2021)

bimble said:


> Happy new year to this thread in particular.


And a Happy New Year to you Bimble


----------



## Ax^ (Dec 31, 2021)

philosophical said:


> As far as I can tell from the government guidelines, anybody can import anything into the UK from the EU with no tariffs, paperwork, checks or sanctions.
> Across land.
> Anybody found any government guidelines that says that ain’t so?



I call bullshit


----------



## philosophical (Dec 31, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> I call bullshit



If so can you kindly link to the rules governing imports from the EU to the UK across land, including checks and sanctions?
There are none that I can find.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Dec 31, 2021)

philosophical said:


> If so can you kindly link to the rules governing imports from the EU to the UK across land, including checks and sanctions?
> There are none that I can find.



I'm not really in to importing or exporting things, but surely the 'across land' bit means it's only relevant to the irish border?


----------



## Ax^ (Dec 31, 2021)

philosophical said:


> If so can you kindly link to the rules governing imports from the EU to the UK across land, including checks and sanctions?
> There are none that I can find.







__





						Transport goods out of the UK by road: step by step - GOV.UK
					

How to transport goods out of the UK by road - vehicle operator licences and permits, driver documents and road haulage rules.




					www.gov.uk


----------



## Ax^ (Dec 31, 2021)

oh the Irish board you mean well that 





__





						Carrying goods into Ireland from Great Britain (GB)
					

Obligations for hauliers and freight forwarders carrying goods into Ireland from Great Britain.




					www.revenue.ie
				




roro bit is what your are looking for


----------



## Ax^ (Dec 31, 2021)

.


----------



## philosophical (Dec 31, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I asked for the rules governing imports not exports.


----------



## philosophical (Dec 31, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> oh the Irish board you mean well that
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I am looking for the rules regarding imports not exports.


----------



## Ax^ (Dec 31, 2021)

if you export from Ireland you been importing to england


their are rules to it


----------



## keybored (Dec 31, 2021)

two sheds said:


> So that's for anyone importing or exporting? Including people who sell across e-bay for example?


Yes, although sellers will frequently and helpfully mark down the value on the customs declaration (no matter where in the world you buy from).


----------



## philosophical (Dec 31, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> if you export from Ireland you been importing to england
> 
> 
> their are rules to it



You could be exporting from the Republic of Ireland to anywhere. If you are exporting from the Republic of Ireland (which is in the EU) across land to the UK can you point me to the rules and regulations issued by the UK government for that land based activity, including information about checks and sanctions?


----------



## keybored (Dec 31, 2021)




----------



## Ax^ (Dec 31, 2021)

philosophical said:


> You could be exporting from the Republic of Ireland to anywhere. If you are exporting from the Republic of Ireland (which is in the EU) across land to the UK can you point me to the rules and regulations issued by the UK government for that land based activity, including information about checks and sanctions?



you know how much information that can cover

ok so basic RoRo info for EU to Uk

EU to UK RoRo Requirements



also now the entry have to send when the good arrive into the UK POE
which is another ballache for people to have to do


----------



## philosophical (Dec 31, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> you know how much information that can cover
> 
> ok so basic RoRo info for EU to Uk
> 
> ...



So you called what I wrote bullshit, when it turns out to be correct.

This is what I wrote:

_As far as I can tell from the government guidelines, anybody can import anything into the UK from the EU with no tariffs, paperwork, checks or sanctions.
Across land.
Anybody found any government guidelines that says that ain’t so?_

Roll on and roll off activity is rare along the 300 odd miles of UK/EU land border, and over 200 crossing points.


----------



## Ax^ (Dec 31, 2021)

how is it that rare seeming as we surrounded by  water you plank


----------



## Ax^ (Dec 31, 2021)

here is the Gov Guideline for importing into the united kingdom


knock yourself out

Import goods into the UK: step by step - GOV.UK


----------



## philosophical (Dec 31, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> how is it that rare seeming as we surrounded by  water you plank


'We' are not surrounded by water. Northern Ireland is part of the UK that has a land border with the EU.

I have read your link, and it does not apply to stuff coming into the UK overland from the Republic of Ireland.

Here is a visual aid that might help you:



Not surrounded by water as you mistakenly think.
So what in my post made earlier is what you call 'bullshit'?

Here is another visual aid to help you:


----------



## Ax^ (Dec 31, 2021)

bacause your first post was the below



philosophical said:


> As far as I can tell from the government guidelines, anybody can import anything into the UK from the EU with no tariffs, paperwork, checks or sanctions.
> Across land.
> Anybody found any government guidelines that says that ain’t so?


----------



## Ax^ (Dec 31, 2021)

also who is anyone if you going to start being a smart arse you plank


----------



## Ax^ (Dec 31, 2021)

seeming as you did not ask the right fucking question in the first place just for you

Customs implications of trade with Northern Ireland


----------



## philosophical (Dec 31, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> also who is anyone if you going to start being a smart arse you plank


Anyone means anyone.
Thanks for the 'smart arse' compliment. Commonly used by people who are wrong in this instance, like you, to people who are right, like me in this instance.
Would you like to re-visit your assertion that 'we' are surrounded by water?


----------



## philosophical (Dec 31, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> seeming as you did not ask the right fucking question in the first place just for you
> 
> Customs implications of trade with Northern Ireland



I asked about the rules, and how they're going to be enforced.
Because you are thrashing around for the non existent answer, and failing, you have descended into abuse.
Why can't you simply accept what I have said, that in a 300 mile land border, with over 200 crossing points, between the EU and the UK, anybody can do anything?
If I am wrong then prove it, your Government links don't prove that I am wrong in the slightest.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 31, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> bacause your first post was the below


It's wicked to mock the afflicted


----------



## Ax^ (Dec 31, 2021)

philosophical said:


> I asked about the rules, and how they're going to be enforced.
> Because you are thrashing around for the non existent answer, and failing, you have descended into abuse.
> Why can't you simply accept what I have said, that in a 300 mile land border, with over 200 crossing points, between the EU and the UK, anybody can do anything?
> If I am wrong then prove it, your Government links don't prove that I am wrong in the slightest.



why the fuck so you keep saying the UK when you mean North Ireland


----------



## philosophical (Dec 31, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> why the fuck so you keep saying the UK when you mean North Ireland


Because at present Northern Ireland is part of the descriptor of the UK.
In the brexit referendum, citizens of Northern Ireland voted in the same way as citizens of Scotland, Wales and England.
Are you saying that Northern ireland is not part of the UK, and unlike Wales, Scotland and England, Boris Johnson isn't it's Prime Minister?


----------



## Ax^ (Dec 31, 2021)

well you so know that 


> Implementation of the revised Protocol on Ireland and Northern Ireland
> Under the Revised Protocol on Ireland and Northern Ireland, Northern Ireland:
> 
> legally remains part of the customs territory of the UK
> effectively remains within the EU Single Market for the movement of goods only.


----------



## philosophical (Dec 31, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> well you so know that



Yes I know that. However in practical terms any goods and any people can cross into the UK from the EU unhindered. The protocol does not prevent that, nothing does in Ireland.
If some kind of legality is to come into play, how is it enforced?
Not at the land border that's for sure.


----------



## iveivan (Dec 31, 2021)

That’s why there‘s supposed to be a border in the Irish sea. That was the agreement in order to keep the frictionless border between the Republic (in the EU) and Northern Island (In U.K.) In order to protect the Good Friday agreement.


----------



## two sheds (Dec 31, 2021)

they tried that but the border posts kept sinking


----------



## philosophical (Jan 1, 2022)

iveivan said:


> That’s why there‘s supposed to be a border in the Irish sea. That was the agreement in order to keep the frictionless border between the Republic (in the EU) and Northern Island (In U.K.) In order to protect the Good Friday agreement.


Indeed that is the theory. It is a bit of a one way valve controlling stuff between the UK mainland and the part of the UK that is Northern Ireland. However there remains no controls on anything moving across the land border in Ireland from the EU to the UK, Northern Ireland being in the UK.
Anyway the protocol is disliked by the UK Government that agreed to it, and by many in Northern Ireland, and it is a good example of the apparently dreaded 'democratic deficit' because separate treatment for Northern Ireland is not what the UK voted for, any more than the UK voted for separate treatment for Staffordshire.


----------



## miktheword (Jan 1, 2022)

philosophical said:


> Anyway the protocol is disliked by many in Northern Ireland, and it is a good example of the apparently dreaded 'democratic deficit' because separate treatment for Northern Ireland is not what the UK voted for, any more than the UK voted for separate treatment for Staffordshire.


Philosophical, can I just say that if I was a capitalist, pro free markets, even a New Labour 'Democratic Socialist'. I may well have gone with the Protocol as It's the solution to Brexit within the capitalist system.

When you say that The Protocol is disliked by many  in Northern Ireland, it's by  political Unionists, who wanted a hard border as a result of voting for Brexit.

Yes there were many Nationalists who could see the upcoming clusterfuck and opportunity
  (it was Sinn Fein's previous position) and who also voted for the same thing but overwhelmingly the supporters of Brexit over here  were pro Union and pro hard border.

Even in voters over here who I knew, a hard border wasn't an issue.

In recent polls, despite the constant anti protocol rhetoric by pro Union media, the working of the protocol has gained  majority support. 

The major benefit of Brexit may well be the acceleration of a United Ireland; it has certainly accelerated the debate here. Sinn Fein lead the polls north and south; if that maintains, the other parties everywhere will be forced to come up with a programme to deal with unification.
Even Jamie Bryson has taken part in  two hour RTE debates recently on prospects for a United maybe New Ireland.

I understand why every, left behind by Labour, working class community, voted leave, irrespective of the charlatans leading the campaign; but, if a far greater chance of a United Ireland results, even in a free market area, I'll take that as a prize of sorts; I reckon that many of your protagonists in this debate would want the outcome of a United Ireland.


----------



## iveivan (Jan 1, 2022)

philosophical said:


> Indeed that is the theory. It is a bit of a one way valve controlling stuff between the UK mainland and the part of the UK that is Northern Ireland. However there remains no controls on anything moving across the land border in Ireland from the EU to the UK, Northern Ireland being in the UK.
> Anyway the protocol is disliked by the UK Government that agreed to it, and by many in Northern Ireland, and it is a good example of the apparently dreaded 'democratic deficit' because separate treatment for Northern Ireland is not what the UK voted for, any more than the UK voted for separate treatment for Staffordshire.


The protocol was needed to ‘Get Brexit Done’ and was part of the ‘Oven Ready Deal‘ that was bulldozed through by the U.K. Government. They are now saying they don’t like it because the NI economy can flourish by still being a de facto member of the EU, making it obvious what damage has been done to the rest of the U.K. by Brexit and that a better solution would have been for the whole of the U.K. to stay in the SM and CU.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jan 1, 2022)

New year Brexit changes ‘permanently damage’ EU trade, says food body
					

New customs checks will make imports more expensive and slower, says Cold Chain Federation




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Badgers (Jan 1, 2022)

> Amid growing public dismay at the negative impact of Brexit, the Cold Chain Federation said speciality food imports could face the same 70% decline that affected exports of food by small businesses this year after Britain quit the EU single market and customs union.



Sunlit Uplands 👍


----------



## Badgers (Jan 1, 2022)

Johnson lists returning crowns to pint glasses as a key Brexit success
					

New year message makes no mention of Northern Ireland amid boasts of ‘cutting back on EU red tape’




					www.theguardian.com
				






> Boris Johnson has named returning the crown stamps to pint glasses and scrapping a ban on selling goods in pounds and ounces on his list of the “key successes” of Brexit this year


----------



## ska invita (Jan 1, 2022)

key bit there (other than points based migration):

"Johnson also highlighted reviews of the regulatory regimes around artificial intelligence, self-driving vehicles, data rights, genetically modified food and medical devices as areas where the UK could deviate from the EU."


----------



## Raheem (Jan 1, 2022)

Badgers said:


> Boris Johnson has named returning the crown stamps to pint glasses and scrapping a ban on selling goods in pounds and ounces on his list of the “key successes” of Brexit this year


Neither of which have actually happened.


----------



## Ax^ (Jan 1, 2022)

people who want to buy things in pound and ounce should just expand the item  they regularly shop for


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jan 1, 2022)

miktheword said:


> Philosophical, can I just say that if I was a capitalist, pro free markets, even a New Labour 'Democratic Socialist'. I may well have gone with the Protocol as It's the solution to Brexit within the capitalist system.
> 
> When you say that The Protocol is disliked by many  in Northern Ireland, it's by  political Unionists, who wanted a hard border as a result of voting for Brexit.
> 
> ...




Beginning to suspect philosophical’s surname is Paisley; single-issue-nut-job, violent fantasies, banging on endlessly, doesn’t want a United Ireland…


----------



## philosophical (Jan 1, 2022)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Beginning to suspect philosophical’s surname is Paisley; single-issue-nut-job, violent fantasies, banging on endlessly, doesn’t want a United Ireland…



Fuck off you cunt.
I have spent the past five years demonstrating to leave voting cunts that you can’t square the circle where the GFA says remain and the referendum says leave. I would be relaxed enough with a United Ireland, it is nationalism I object to, unlike the nationalist foreigner hating leave voters.
I don’t give a toss whether you pretend you secretly work for a United Ireland, and if you voted leave that was your purpose. Backsliding lies. Disingenuous equivocation where you and your sneering ilk on Urban (leavers and remainers) patronisingly pose and write personals directed at me because I point out, endlessly, that your high falutin pose does not disguise your low down cuntishness in pretending it is possible to leave and remain at the same time.
You and your entourage can piss off and mutually wank each other into a stupor. Your single issue is to put down another to disguise the vacuousness of your own position.
Fuck off and continue with your fantasy of having Nigel Farage suck you off, you are a snide piece of shit who wants to give it out, but probably runs to moderators if you feel slighted in return.
Cunt.


----------



## contadino (Jan 1, 2022)

It's become a common meme over the last 12 months... coming up with justification for supporting a far right policy. "Forget the shortages, I voted to improve conditions for HGV drivers" "Tough shit if you want imported cheese, I voted leave to support domestic cheesemongers" "Food rotting in UK fields just demonstrates how over-reliant we were on forrin workers" "Sod the GFA, I voted leave in order for Ireland to be reunited"

Each time, it's becoming less and less credible and that's why polls are showing that support for Brexit is tanking and people are increasingly calling out the bullshit.

Far from done.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jan 1, 2022)

contadino said:


> It's become a common meme over the last 12 months... coming up with justification for supporting a far right policy. "Forget the shortages, I voted to improve conditions for HGV drivers" "Tough shit if you want imported cheese, I voted leave to support domestic cheesemongers" "Food rotting in UK fields just demonstrates how over-reliant we were on forrin workers" "Sod the GFA, I voted leave in order for Ireland to be reunited"
> 
> Each time, it's becoming less and less credible and that's why polls are showing that support for Brexit is tanking and people are increasingly calling out the bullshit.
> 
> Far from done.




This is just more bollocks. 99.9% of ALL English/Welsh/Scots voters gave no fucks at all to the UK border issue. An unintended consequence is that a United Ireland is pretty much guaranteed now. That, along with higher wages for various sectors are Brexit benefits, however much people such as yourself try to dismiss it.


----------



## contadino (Jan 1, 2022)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> This is just more bollocks. 99.9% of ALL English/Welsh/Scots voters gave no fucks at all to the UK border issue. An unintended consequence is that a United Ireland is pretty much guaranteed now. That, along with higher wages for various sectors are Brexit benefits, however much people such as yourself try to dismiss it.


Is high inflation a Brexit bonus too? Because that comes along right behind higher wages as sure as night follows day.

99.9% of statistics are made up, but maybe you have a source for that.


----------



## philosophical (Jan 1, 2022)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> This is just more bollocks. 99.9% of ALL English/Welsh/Scots voters gave no fucks at all to the UK border issue.


You are guessing.
You have no incontrovertible proof regarding who gave a fuck about what from wherever.
Every voter could have had a different reason, or given different fucks about different things, you have no idea what they cared about neither have I.
What is a know is the result of the referendum, for whatever reasons or none.
The vote was to leave.
Here is the ballot paper:



The answer is there, no matter what your interpretation is.
Leave won the most votes.
That means that the EU and the UK become separate.
That means the issues of what separation looks like on the land border have to be confronted.
Just because you arily declare nobody gives a fuck, the issue is there and has been exacerbated by the simple result, in numbers, from a simply worded voting slip.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jan 1, 2022)

contadino said:


> Is high inflation a Brexit bonus too? Because that comes along right behind higher wages as sure as night follows day.
> 
> 99.9% of statistics are made up, but maybe you have a source for that.



 5.2% in the UK vs 4.9% for the EU as a whole. Eurostat/ONS

Where's your evidence of Brexit causing high inflation? Or are you talking our of your hole?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jan 1, 2022)

philosophical said:


> You are guessing.
> You have no incontrovertible proof regarding who gave a fuck about what from wherever.
> Every voter could have had a different reason, or given different fucks about different things, you have no idea what they cared about neither have I.
> What is a know is the result of the referendum, for whatever reasons or none.
> ...




On the back it stated, in big green letters: "Would you like to raise the blood pressure to a dangerous level of some twerp in South London who will spend the next X years banging on about a border between two countries that will be joined as one if you vote leave"


----------



## contadino (Jan 1, 2022)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> 5.2% in the UK vs 4.9% for the EU as a whole. Eurostat/ONS
> 
> Where's your evidence of Brexit causing high inflation? Or are you talking our of your hole?


Prove that 99.9% of ALL English/Welsh/Scots voters gave no fucks at all to the UK border issue. Little steps....


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jan 1, 2022)

contadino said:


> Prove that 99.9% of ALL English/Welsh/Scots voters gave no fucks at all to the UK border issue. Little steps....




I asked every single one. 

Twice.


----------



## philosophical (Jan 1, 2022)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> On the back it stated, in big green letters: "Would you like to raise the blood pressure to a dangerous level of some twerp in South London who will spend the next X years banging on about a border between two countries that will be joined as one if you vote leave"



It didn't.
You are lying.
If you are a leave voter, own it, solve it.
I spent a lot of my life witnessing the terrorism and troubles and over 3000 deaths as a result, albeit from a safe distance.
Do you think all that nasty stuff was a bit of a joke?


----------



## contadino (Jan 1, 2022)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> I asked every single one.
> 
> Twice.


Right, so we'll file that claim with the £350 million/week to the NHS. You've demonstrated that you're full of shit. Moving along...


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jan 1, 2022)

philosophical said:


> It didn't.
> You are lying.
> If you are a leave voter, own it, solve it.
> I spent a lot of my life witnessing the terrorism and troubles and over 3000 deaths as a result, albeit from a safe distance.
> Do you think all that nasty stuff was a bit of a joke?




It did, your's didn't cos they wanted to wind you up down the polling station.

And you spent a lot of your life etc., what you tuned in to the news of an evening, as did everyone else, well done you. United Ireland is the end result of Brexit, you HATE Brexit with such a vengeance that you wish physical ills on everyone in the UK as it was voted for. You're a fucking fruit-loop.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 1, 2022)

contadino said:


> Prove that 99.9% of ALL English/Welsh/Scots voters gave no fucks at all to the UK border issue. Little steps....


Being as a major plank of the brexit campaign was taking back control of borders it's fair to say borders were high on the agenda


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jan 1, 2022)

contadino said:


> Right, so we'll file that claim with the £350 million/week to the NHS. You've demonstrated that you're full of shit. Moving along...



Along with your steaming pile of bollocks idea that Brexit is increasing inflation?


----------



## contadino (Jan 1, 2022)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Along with your steaming pile of bollocks idea that Brexit is increasing inflation?


99.9% of grownups can see you're a lying twat with a poor grasp of stats.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jan 1, 2022)

contadino said:


> 99.9% of grownups can see you're a lying twat with a poor grasp of stats.




102% of regular people don't give a flying fuck what you think, especially about a subject as boring as Brexit.


----------



## contadino (Jan 1, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> Being as a major plank of the brexit campaign was taking back control of borders it's fair to say borders were high on the agenda


Yes...









						UK ministers eager to ease immigration rules for Indian citizens
					

Offer could be on table in upcoming trade talks in Delhi in bid to access to country’s growing economy




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jan 1, 2022)

contadino said:


> Yes...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Another Brexit win. This thread delivers


----------



## contadino (Jan 1, 2022)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Another Brexit win. This thread delivers


Cheap labour for sale... Your ethics are as poor as your integrity and mathematics.

Still, it'll fix the wage rise/inflation issue/intended consequence.


----------



## philosophical (Jan 1, 2022)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> It did, your's didn't cos they wanted to wind you up down the polling station.
> 
> And you spent a lot of your life etc., what you tuned in to the news of an evening, as did everyone else, well done you. United Ireland is the end result of Brexit, you HATE Brexit with such a vengeance that you wish physical ills on everyone in the UK as it was voted for. You're a fucking fruit-loop.



Whatever.
Carry on with your delusion.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jan 1, 2022)

contadino said:


> Cheap labour for sale...




Wow, that's a shift from leavers being the racists, well played.


----------



## iveivan (Jan 1, 2022)

contadino said:


> Yes...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Immigrants are always needed for the government to point the finger of blame at and stir up racism. Brown immigrants work better for that.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jan 1, 2022)

iveivan said:


> Immigrants are always needed for the government to point the finger of blame at and stir up racism. Brown immigrants work better for that.




Fuck me, another one.


----------



## iveivan (Jan 1, 2022)

You are welcome


----------



## contadino (Jan 1, 2022)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Wow, that's a shift from leavers being the racists, well played.


Ha! That's a hell of a leap, but you've already demonstrated that you're a fantacist.


----------



## brogdale (Jan 1, 2022)

The BrexUrbz will love this...


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Jan 2, 2022)

contadino said:


> Is high inflation a Brexit bonus too? Because that comes along right behind higher wages as sure as night follows day.


The 1970s just called and would like their anti-working class slogan back.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## bimble (Jan 2, 2022)

lots of oddities in this poll here, like that only 39% of people who voted leave say they think it was good for the nation's interests, and that 4 out of 10 people think Johnson didn't lie about brexit, but this is the best bit:
'the Savanta poll found the UK still split down the middle on Brexit, with 46 per cent saying the 2016 decision to leave the EU was right and 46 per cent wrong. Some 10 per cent of former Leave voters who said they now think it was the wrong decision were balanced by 13 per cent of Remain voters who now think it was right to leave.'


----------



## gosub (Jan 2, 2022)

bimble said:


> lots of oddities in this poll here, like that only 39% of people who voted leave say they think it was good for the nation's interests, and that 4 out of 10 think Johnson didn't lie about brexit, but this is the best bit:
> 'the Savanta poll found the UK still split down the middle on Brexit, with 46 per cent saying the 2016 decision to leave the EU was right and 46 per cent wrong. Some 10 per cent of former Leave voters who said they now think it was the wrong decision were balanced by 13 per cent of Remain voters who now think it was right to leave.'


Whats odd?  It didn't go as hoped.  (as acknowledged by leavers) and some remainers it turns out to thiink democracy has some value.

What I do find a bit odd is the thinking that there is any real desire to keep picking at what is still an open wound, but it is a free country if some people want to use their perogative its down to them. Just would nice if they had some clue of what it entails.  Certainly won't happen under this parliament.  If those that do still want to be banging on about rejoining what will be 8 years after the plebicite they lost, then the ducks in a row will have to include joining the EUro and Schengen.


meanwhile the world keeps turning and all this 'l'esprit de l'escalier seems less relevent.


----------



## brogdale (Jan 2, 2022)

gosub said:


> Whats odd?  It didn't go as hoped.  (as acknowledged by leavers) and some remainers it turns out to thiink democracy has some value.
> 
> What I do find a bit odd is the thinking that there is any real desire to keep picking at what is still an open wound, but it is a free country if some people want to use their perogative its down to them. Just would nice if they had some clue of what it entails.  Certainly won't happen under this parliament.  If those that do still want to be banging on about rejoining what will be 8 years after the plebicite they lost, then the ducks in a row will have to include joining the EUro and Schengen.
> 
> ...


The reason we're in here discussing this is precisely because some interest groups expressed the "desire to keep picking at what is still an open wound" from 1973(75) onwards, and even before that in some instances.

The changed trading relationships effected in 1973 and 2016 obviously had/have ongoing consequences so it's no surprise that some people continue to "bang on" about it.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 2, 2022)

gosub said:


> it is a free country


You've really not been following current events over the past six years


----------



## gosub (Jan 2, 2022)

brogdale said:


> The reason we're in here discussing this is precisely because some interest groups expressed the "desire to keep picking at what is still an open wound" from 1973(75) onwards, and even before that in some instances.
> 
> The changed trading relationships effected in 1973 and 2016 obviously had/have ongoing consequences so it's no surprise that some people continue to "bang on" about it.


1973/75 shouldn't be classed as open wound (that it has been is part of why we are where we are) UK agreed by plebicite to join and stay in a common market. The EU is far more than that.  The goal posts moved  whilst debate over it was closed down for 40 years.


----------



## brogdale (Jan 2, 2022)

gosub said:


> 1973/75 shouldn't be classed as open wound (that it has been is part of why we are where we are) UK agreed by plebicite to join and stay in a common market. The EU is far more than that.  The goal posts moved  whilst debate over it was closed down for 40 years.


Bit late to re-write that political history, I'm afraid.
Right-wing/nationalist/empire-fanaticists were organising, campaigning and lobbying against UK membership of the 'common market' as early as 1961, some 12 years before UK accession.

e2a: _"...debate over it was closed down for 40 years." _


----------



## philosophical (Jan 2, 2022)

Whatever has happened has not been ‘democratic’ because the voting slip did not single out Northern Ireland to be treated differently.
The ‘democracy’ of the vote has not happened, so leave voters who might bang on about honouring democracy can’t use the referendum aftermath as an example.
The democratic deficit has been created by forces for leave, not remain.


----------



## gosub (Jan 2, 2022)

brogdale said:


> Bit late to re-write that political history, I'm afraid.
> Right-wing/nationalist/empire-fanaticists were organising, campaigning and lobbying against UK membership of the 'common market' as early as 1961, some 12 years before UK accession.
> 
> e2a: _"...debate over it was closed down for 40 years." _


Thats right, there was no consoldiation no further treaties no ever closer Union for 40 years it all stayed exactly as it was so there was no need for public engagement and anybody that thought there was was just some zenophobe with a thing about bananas..

And people old enough to politically involve themselves in 1961 were born in 1940 or before, all still hanging there and asserting there command of UK politics in 2016.


----------



## brogdale (Jan 2, 2022)

gosub said:


> Thats right, there was no consoldiation no further treaties no ever closer Union for 40 years it all stayed exactly as it was so there was no need for public engagement and anybody that thought there was was just some zenophobe with a thing about bananas..
> 
> And people old enough to politically involve themselves in 1961 were born in 1940 or before, all still hanging there and asserting there command of UK politics in 2016.


Not really sure what point you're trying to make, but to suggest that there was no debate about the UK's membership of the  EEC/EU before 2015 is just plain wrong.


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 2, 2022)

brogdale said:


> Bit late to re-write that political history, I'm afraid.
> Right-wing/nationalist/empire-fanaticists were organising, campaigning and lobbying against UK membership of the 'common market' as early as 1961, some 12 years before UK accession.
> 
> e2a: _"...debate over it was closed down for 40 years." _


As did the left untill the late 80s after the defeat of the miners .


----------



## bimble (Jan 2, 2022)

gosub said:


> Whats odd?  It didn't go as hoped.  (as acknowledged by leavers) and some remainers it turns out to thiink democracy has some value.
> 
> What I do find a bit odd is the thinking that there is any real desire to keep picking at what is still an open wound, but it is a free country if some people want to use their perogative its down to them. Just would nice if they had some clue of what it entails.  Certainly won't happen under this parliament.  If those that do still want to be banging on about rejoining what will be 8 years after the plebicite they lost, then the ducks in a row will have to include joining the EUro and Schengen.
> 
> ...


I was surprised by that bit too, where it says only 32% of respondents 'say the issue should never be reopened'. I'd have guessed it would be at least double that, everyone being sick of it. 

What do you mean when you say it didn't go as hoped?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jan 2, 2022)

I don’t know much, but I do know 



Spoiler: Brexit has made…


----------



## Ax^ (Jan 2, 2022)

philosophical said:


> Whatever has happened has not been ‘democratic’ because the voting slip did not single out Northern Ireland to be treated differently.
> The ‘democracy’ of the vote has not happened, so leave voters who might bang on about honouring democracy can’t use the referendum aftermath as an example.
> The democratic deficit has been created by forces for leave, not remain.




the sister moved to the north in 2012 so was back and forward for quite a bit weddings , holidays and  Christings

the campaign in north ireland at least the remain side made it clear that hard border check was the main reason for opposition to the vote
example below even after the result










you know if the hard unionist vote thought brexit was a good idea because of custom boarders on the land boarder of north ireland to the republic
and a return to the situations during the troubles

Well they were lied to by Boris and his Party, never trust a tory 
cannie really say my heart bleeds for them


----------



## philosophical (Jan 2, 2022)

Yes.
The leave apologists continue to either ignore the border implications, or treat it as a joke.
For me the land border is a fulcrum of the wider downsides of leave, but it is singular in one way and possible to use to demonstrate the folly of the whole malarkey. For example issues about trade, and free movement and collaboration.
The dismissal, and jokes about the border also resonate with age old anti Irish feeling from the mainland, where to my mind the English in particular regard the Irish as upstart colonials to be attacked, exploited, and betrayed.
I see all who voted leave to be part of that anti Irish constituency.


----------



## Ax^ (Jan 2, 2022)

if only it was that easy as that

it was a lack of care towards the subject that really shows thru

they did not plan for the effect in north ireland even when giving the DUP 1 billion pound to support the withdrawl agreement


----------



## Badgers (Jan 2, 2022)




----------



## donkyboy (Jan 2, 2022)

Give it about 10 years. We will be crying back into the EU. No doubting it . Decade will breeze by. Hopefully the condition for re-entry will be no more referendums on leaving for at least 300 years and any early exit will result in a 300 trillion euro fine.


----------



## High Voltage (Jan 2, 2022)

donkyboy said:


> Give it about 10 years. We will be crying back into the EU. No doubting it . Decade will breeze by. Hopefully the condition for re-entry will be no more referendums on leaving for at least 300 years and any early exit will result in a 300 trillion euro fine.


I would like to think "something" like that, but I doubt it'll be in my lifetime (I'm 60) and I'd be amazed if the Kingdom was allowed back under such reasonable conditions . . . I fear they would be truly punitive


----------



## Serge Forward (Jan 3, 2022)

They wouldn't be punitive, they'd be standard and without any "British exceptionalism" clauses.

By the way, I can't remember which Tory minister or negotiator it was, who when in the early days of Brexit  was asked by some Eurocrat, "what do you propose to do about the land border?" replied with "What land border?" Anyone remember?


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Jan 3, 2022)

.......


----------



## bimble (Jan 3, 2022)

HoratioCuthbert said:


> yeah i love the murderous EU.


ooh can i get that on a t shirt.


----------



## TopCat (Jan 3, 2022)

philosophical said:


> Fuck off you cunt.
> I have spent the past five years demonstrating to leave voting cunts that you can’t square the circle where the GFA says remain and the referendum says leave. I would be relaxed enough with a United Ireland, it is nationalism I object to, unlike the nationalist foreigner hating leave voters.
> I don’t give a toss whether you pretend you secretly work for a United Ireland, and if you voted leave that was your purpose. Backsliding lies. Disingenuous equivocation where you and your sneering ilk on Urban (leavers and remainers) patronisingly pose and write personals directed at me because I point out, endlessly, that your high falutin pose does not disguise your low down cuntishness in pretending it is possible to leave and remain at the same time.
> You and your entourage can piss off and mutually wank each other into a stupor. Your single issue is to put down another to disguise the vacuousness of your own position.
> ...


Pure loonspud now. A parody.


----------



## philosophical (Jan 3, 2022)

TopCat said:


> Pure loonspud now. A parody.


 Really?
Pure retaliation against an attack on me, likening me to Ian Paisley.
Solved the Irish border problem yet? You voted for it.
Attacking my perspective by continuous personal digs is a leave voters method for deflecting from the serious situation they have called on.
‘Look over there at Philosophical’, don’t look at the damage I’ve done, is the message.
You voted leave.
Now explain how you intend to make that work on the land border.


----------



## existentialist (Jan 3, 2022)

philosophical said:


> You voted leave.
> Now explain how you intend to make that work on the land border.


TBF, I don't think that's actually his job.


----------



## Spymaster (Jan 3, 2022)

philosophical said:


> Fuck off you cunt.
> I have spent the past five years demonstrating to leave voting cunts that you can’t square the circle where the GFA says remain and the referendum says leave. I would be relaxed enough with a United Ireland, it is nationalism I object to, unlike the nationalist foreigner hating leave voters.
> I don’t give a toss whether you pretend you secretly work for a United Ireland, and if you voted leave that was your purpose. Backsliding lies. Disingenuous equivocation where you and your sneering ilk on Urban (leavers and remainers) patronisingly pose and write personals directed at me because I point out, endlessly, that your high falutin pose does not disguise your low down cuntishness in pretending it is possible to leave and remain at the same time.
> You and your entourage can piss off and mutually wank each other into a stupor. Your single issue is to put down another to disguise the vacuousness of your own position.
> ...



If I were a leave voter, I'd be totally reveling in how cross it's made dickheads like you!


----------



## philosophical (Jan 3, 2022)

existentialist said:


> TBF, I don't think that's actually his job.



Why not? He (she?) voted for it.
One of the few certainties of ‘leave’ is it is or was a vote for a hard border in Ireland.
For evidence may I refer you back to the voting slip I reproduced above, and invite you to contemplate what ‘leave’ means.


----------



## philosophical (Jan 3, 2022)

Spymaster said:


> If I were a leave voter, I'd be totally reveling in how cross it's made dickheads like you!



I retaliated against personal abuse.
Being ‘cross’ (how quaint) because you’re likened to Ian Paisley is totally in order.
Now carry on revelling.


----------



## gosub (Jan 3, 2022)

donkyboy said:


> Give it about 10 years. We will be crying back into the EU. No doubting it . Decade will breeze by. Hopefully the condition for re-entry will be no more referendums on leaving for at least 300 years and any early exit will result in a 300 trillion euro fine.


Which would be a clear breach of the UK constitution


----------



## gosub (Jan 3, 2022)

Spymaster said:


> If I were a leave voter, I'd be totally reveling in how cross it's made dickheads like you!


No.  But fuck being accomadating  to their position.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jan 3, 2022)

gosub said:


> Which would be a clear breach of the UK constitution



Ah yes, the Magna Farta


----------



## gosub (Jan 3, 2022)

Artaxerxes said:


> Ah yes, the Magna Farta


Nope.  No parliament may bind its successors.


Magna Carta is an English thing, rather limited in scope but important in principal. The 1688 Bill of Rights is probably closer to what people think of as as a constitution though again only an English thing.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jan 3, 2022)

Worth a read. The happy go lucky backers and journalists striving to make Brexit a success an a reality.


----------



## ska invita (Jan 3, 2022)

Artaxerxes said:


> Worth a read. The happy go lucky backers and journalists striving to make Brexit a success an a reality.



this from that









but is a bit like I was saying on the Private Eye thread - its all a bit "yeah we know". Theres an establishment, and a good part of it is Brexit supporting. Not all of it though, you could do a similiar graphic with similar right wing groups and establishment figures that are pro-EU (less a lot of the press though tbf).

I do wonder how much the aristocracy is behind the project...Id expect majority yes. Sun reckons the Queen likes it


----------



## Thaw (Jan 3, 2022)

He seems to have decided its all a Papist plot.


----------



## Badgers (Jan 3, 2022)




----------



## xenon (Jan 3, 2022)

philosophical said:


> Why not? He (she?) voted for it.
> One of the few certainties of ‘leave’ is it is or was a vote for a hard border in Ireland.
> For evidence may I refer you back to the voting slip I reproduced above, and invite you to contemplate what ‘leave’ means.



I got a solution,. well take your pick.

1. UK stays in the customs union.
2. United Ireland.

I'd favour 1 at this point though I'm in favour of 2 but I gather there are some over in NI who are... Less kean.

I didn't vote leave BTW. But neither do I think it's on the voters that did to come up with solutions. I mean you don't order the sea bass off the menu only for another punter to demand how you're gonna catch, kill and cook it.


----------



## brogdale (Jan 3, 2022)

xenon said:


> I got a solution,. well take your pick.
> 
> 1. UK stays in the customs union.
> 2. United Ireland.
> ...


There was the option of not choosing to go into the smelly fish restaurant in the first place.


----------



## philosophical (Jan 3, 2022)

xenon said:


> I got a solution,. well take your pick.
> 
> 1. UK stays in the customs union.
> 2. United Ireland.
> ...


I am afraid I disagree.
If the vote was for men to have babies it might prove popular, but it has to be feasible.
For the whole of the UK to leave the EU, which is what won the vote, is it not reasonable to assume people knew what they were voting for? And that evidence is the words on the voting slip.
If people knew what they were voting for, it is a more than reasonable assumption that they had a workable solution to the land border issue.
Incidentally, I agree with you that the solution would be for the UK to stay in the customs union, but again that would not be what was voted for.


----------



## Serge Forward (Jan 3, 2022)

gosub said:


> Which would be a clear breach of the UK constitution


That would be the unwritten one?


----------



## gosub (Jan 3, 2022)

Serge Forward said:


> That would be the unwritten one?


Course. Coz a written one might be in breach of our constition


----------



## bimble (Jan 4, 2022)

gosub said:


> It didn't go as hoped.  (as acknowledged by leavers)


still wondering what you meant by this - what didn't go as hoped?


----------



## redsquirrel (Jan 4, 2022)

Badgers said:


>



And? What are you trying to say? That this is suspicious? That Ipsos MORI are hiding something? That it backs up the argument Horatio (and others) have made?

(Here's the link to the full poll on the Ipsos MORI website btw)


----------



## bimble (Jan 4, 2022)

The poll questions in that screenshot are designed to get the result they got , look at the state of it.
here's someone (thread) explaining. this is why the head of ipsos deleted their tweet.


----------



## redsquirrel (Jan 4, 2022)

Yeah that is the (loon) implication, I am asking Badgers if he agrees with it.

Polling on hypotheticals is always challenging.

You can do what YouGov do and simply ask if people favour (re)joining the EU but what you are likely to be polling there is highly unlikely to be an accurate picture of how people would vote if a referendum was actually on the table.

Ipsos MORI decided to ask a similar question in a different way, that comes with its own disadvantages (and advantages), and provides different information. The framing of questions and providing priming information does need to be done with a great deal of care and there is no doubt can skew results. But the idea that IM is engaged in some sinister conspiracy is as loony as the chart in post 9698 and the moron who's twitter thread you've linked to.


----------



## bimble (Jan 4, 2022)

it asked if you want to rejoin 'as soon as possible', which even i would say no to. I'm not going to fight over it but find it very surprising that anyone would think the question was _not _loaded and designed to get the headline result it did, eg this



its a nice example anyway of how polls can say all manner of stuff, this contrasted with the one a couple of days ago which found that 'only 32% of respondents say the issue should never be reopened'.


----------



## redsquirrel (Jan 4, 2022)

So Ipsos MORI are another of the "Brexit Enablers" are they? The fiends!
Are YouGov ok now? Or are they part of the conspiracy too? 

The fact that Matt Prescott retweets Kerry-Anne Mendoza speaks volumes about their loon nature.


----------



## bimble (Jan 4, 2022)

I have no conspiracy ideas like that, just think its interesting that's all, that those are basically two totally opposite results. 'less than a quarter think we should rejoin' and 'only 32% think we should never rejoin', its funny.


----------



## Yossarian (Jan 4, 2022)

bimble said:


> it asked if you want to rejoin 'as soon as possible', which even i would say no to. I'm not going to fight over it but find it very surprising that anyone would think the question was _not _loaded and designed to get the headline result it did, eg this
> 
> View attachment 304437
> 
> its a nice example anyway of how polls can say all manner of stuff, this contrasted with the one a couple of days ago which found that 'only 32% of respondents say the issue should never be reopened'.



Could as easily be "Brexiter hammer blow as two-thirds say we were wrong to leave to EU - poll suggests almost a million Leavers now want to REJOIN as soon as possible" - but I think the Express would have skewed its coverage no matter what the poll question was.

Do they do a "Brexit LIVE" thing every day?


----------



## bimble (Jan 4, 2022)

The detailed results that redsquirrel linked to are interesting. the gov will be glad that 65% of 2019 conservative voters still think we were right to leave (contrast with 13% of labour voters)


----------



## Badgers (Jan 4, 2022)

Imagine dishonesty and manipulated claims being part of Brexit... 

😲


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jan 4, 2022)

bimble said:


> it asked if you want to rejoin 'as soon as possible', which even i would say no to.



When do you think we should rejoin?


----------



## bimble (Jan 4, 2022)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> When do you think we should rejoin?


I think we should give it a generation or so, and if there’s still an EU there’ll be another referendum.


----------



## Yossarian (Jan 4, 2022)

bimble said:


> I think we should give it a generation or so, and if there’s still an EU there’ll be another referendum.



Probably best to at least leave it until Boris Johnson and his party are not leading the negotiations.


----------



## gosub (Jan 4, 2022)

bimble said:


> still wondering what you meant by this - what didn't go as hoped?


Go back and read the stuff I wrote at the time.  I had thought UK would coalesce around around an in Single Market outside EU position, (slightly ahead of EU offering it in their now heavily delayed next series of reforms).  As it was, when it was finally debated in Parliament that option ended up being 1st thing dismissed. 

There is so much about Brexit where you end up thinking why would you do it like that? But it is was it is..


----------



## gosub (Jan 4, 2022)

Yossarian said:


> Probably best to at least leave it until Boris Johnson and his party are not leading the negotiations.


what's the difference between that and ASAP?  (not endorsing btw)


----------



## bimble (Jan 4, 2022)

gosub said:


> Go back and read the stuff I wrote at the time.  I had thought UK would coalesce around around an in Single Market outside EU position, (slightly ahead of EU offering it in their now heavily delayed next series of reforms).  As it was, when it was finally debated in Parliament that option ended up being 1st thing dismissed.
> 
> There is so much about Brexit where you end up thinking why would you do it like that? But it is was it is..


Yep, just didn’t realise you meant it didn’t go as you yourself hoped.


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 4, 2022)

bimble said:


> I think we should give it a generation or so, and if there’s still an EU there’ll be another referendum.


Plenty of lead in time but best to start the campaign now


----------



## bimble (Jan 4, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Plenty of lead in time but best to start the campaign now


I’ll be living over there by then, like you, so will leave it to others to get on with designing the t shirts.


----------



## gosub (Jan 4, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Plenty of lead in time but best to* start* the campaign now


Get the impression those fixated on the EU never really stopped.


----------



## brogdale (Jan 4, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Plenty of lead in time but best to start the campaign now


Taking an example from the Anti Common-market League (formed 1961) the remainiacs should really have started their campaign against leaving in 2009.


----------



## Yossarian (Jan 4, 2022)

I think it's still technically possible for Johnson to take steps toward rejoining, which is what ASAP implies to me - though of course it's hard to imagine even Johnson becoming addled enough to try it.


----------



## gosub (Jan 4, 2022)

brogdale said:


> Taking an example from the Anti Common-market League (formed 1961) the remainiacs should really have started their campaign against leaving in 2009.


Definitely an air ofl'esprit de l'escalier about things like Ali Campbell's paper


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 4, 2022)

bimble said:


> I’ll be living over there by then, like you, so will leave it to others to get on with designing the t shirts.


Good news is the t shirts  are done and ready to go


----------



## brogdale (Jan 4, 2022)

gosub said:


> Definitely an air ofl'esprit de l'escalier about things like Ali Campbell's paper


I think the key difference is that the anti-suprastate lobby was always concerned that the electorate might be tempted by membership, whereas the pro-EU establishment never really believed that they'd lose the electorate.


----------



## existentialist (Jan 4, 2022)

brogdale said:


> I think the key difference is that the anti-suprastate lobby was always concerned that the electorate might be tempted by membership, whereas the pro-EU establishment never really believed that they'd lose the electorate.


TBF, the anti-EU establishment didn't really believe that the pro-EU one would lose the electorate, either, which is presumably why they went for so much misinformation, graft, lying, etc., and why they're in such a mess now and unable to cash the cheques they wrote during the campaign...


----------



## brogdale (Jan 4, 2022)

existentialist said:


> TBF, the anti-EU establishment didn't really believe that the pro-EU one would lose the electorate, either, which is presumably why they went for so much misinformation, graft, lying, etc., and why they're in such a mess now and unable to cash the cheques they wrote during the campaign...


Maybe; I've not really read around much about what the Leave campaign really thought about their prospects...but the opinion polling in the few years preceding the vote might have given them reason to believe?



Whereas, I'm lead to believe that the polling immediately preceding the 1975 plebiscite gave ratification a clear lead:


----------



## Mezzer (Jan 4, 2022)

Are these figures Brexit related? Given that there are no reciprocal agreements now in place with other EU countries for return to place of first landing?  Migrant crossings: 2021 marks record year with more than 28,300 people entering UK via English Channel


----------



## bimble (Jan 4, 2022)

Mezzer said:


> Are these figures Brexit related? Given that there are no reciprocal agreements now in place with other EU countries for return to place of first landing?  Migrant crossings: 2021 marks record year with more than 28,300 people entering UK via English Channel


I don’t know if it makes sense to say that more people are coming here as a result of brexit meaning the end of the rule that they could be returned to the EU country they first set foot in. I kind of doubt it but maybe.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 4, 2022)

Mezzer said:


> Are these figures Brexit related? Given that there are no reciprocal agreements now in place with other EU countries for return to place of first landing?  Migrant crossings: 2021 marks record year with more than 28,300 people entering UK via English Channel


These figures reflect the success in blocking other ways of getting here from France.


----------



## bemused (Jan 4, 2022)

bimble said:


> I don’t know if it makes sense to say that more people are coming here as a result of brexit meaning the end of the rule that they could be returned to the EU country they first set foot in. I kind of doubt it but maybe.


The return scheme in the EU wasn't huge numbers. The 'send them back' policy is a non-starter anyway, no country in Europe is going to agree the UK can ship back asylum applicants because they travelled through their country - the subject is as toxic in Europe as it is here.

Given how few failed applicants are actually returned home by the Home Office their current plan to reject out of hand people who travel here by boat seems more of a PR excercise than a real attempt to handle the situation. 

The Tories are trapped in a cage of their own making, if people weren't involved it would be very funny to watch.


----------



## bimble (Jan 4, 2022)

bemused said:


> The return scheme in the EU wasn't huge numbers. The 'send them back' policy is a non-starter anyway, no country in Europe is going to agree the UK can ship back asylum applicants because they travelled through their country - the subject is as toxic in Europe as it is here.
> 
> Given how few failed applicants are actually returned home by the Home Office their current plan to reject out of hand people who travel here by boat seems more of a PR excercise than a real attempt to handle the situation.
> 
> The Tories are trapped in a cage of their own making, if people weren't involved it would be very funny to watch.


I don’t know, maybe it suits them fine, going on about how they’ll make wave machines to push immigrants back into the sea and how it’s all France’s fault & so on is probably their most popular policy and they’ve not got much else to sell.


----------



## bemused (Jan 4, 2022)

bimble said:


> I don’t know, maybe it suits them fine, going on about how they’ll make wave machines to push immigrants back into sea and how it’s all France’s fault & so on is probably their most popular policy and they’ve not got much else to sell.


Every time they make a boat-related announcement it hilariously backfires when a Farage type posts a picture of a boat emptying people onto a beach the people the Tory party are dog-whistling moan the government has gone 'woke' and/or lying to them.


----------



## editor (Jan 4, 2022)




----------



## bimble (Jan 7, 2022)

I'm sure everyone here will enjoy this article as much as i did. 





						Brexiters now worry about the judgment of history
					

<a rel="me" href="https://mastodon.online/@ChrisGrey">Mastodon</a>




					chrisgreybrexitblog.blogspot.com


----------



## ska invita (Jan 7, 2022)

bimble said:


> I'm sure everyone here will enjoy this article as much as i did.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Agree with most of that, but a general error of perspective I think it makes is hinted at here:

"However, this latest spate of [negative] commentary [from pro-Brexiters] about the unfulfilled promises of Brexit does not mean that Brexiters have wised up to its realities. What the likes of Farage, Smith, and Hannan are engaged in is a rear-guard defence of their project which, whilst to a degree accepting that it hasn’t delivered, is also a doubling-down on the fantasies that it could, with one more push, be delivered. And, moreover, that if the government were sufficiently committed to Brexit then that final push would be forthcoming."

<that's true in essence, people like Farage are excellent at applying pressure to get their political way, but I think it misunderstands the timescale of what is happening here - its not "rearguard" at all - 'deviation' and deregulation won't happen overnight, especially so whilst the legalities with the EU are still up in the air (in regard NI). This is just the next phase of the campaign. There's no big readjustment in their minds necessary to warrant "doubling down".

Brexit jockeying, moaning and pressuring will go on for a long time yet and its wrong to see it as a sign of weakness: they have already won all the major battles and the pressure must be maintained to keep the project moving in the direction they want. We know what Farage and his ilk want, it includes seeing a US style health service. That and the deeper deregulation and privatisation of everything else they can get their hands on. Theres a long way to go yet, but they want to get there as soon as possible. Trump losing the election and Covid have slowed the project down, but there's no doubt where they want to go. The next Republican-Conservative conjunction will be telling.

Of course they could give zero shits about economic/social hardships normal people might be experiencing short term, or even general GPD contraction - they're not feeling it - stock holders are getting minted right now - but they do need to keep the general perception of what is happening sweet so as to grease the wheels onwards to their ultimate goal. They must fear the possibility of farmers, fishers, and exporters mobilising behind a rejoin the customs union position, but that seems very unlikely. Their project all looks fairly on track to me, short of the possible collapse of the union.

The article suggests their position is in retreat - seems nothing of the kind to me. Johnson is being a little too conscientious by their measure - Im sure Sunak will be a better fit for them - see his Charter Cities for a prototype.


----------



## bimble (Jan 7, 2022)

if Farage and friends really want to see a US style health service, if that's their 'ultimate goal' or was a part of their vision for brexit all along (i'm not convinced of this) even so hardly anybody else (voters i mean) wants to see that do they.
Idk, anyhow the writer there is convinced that 'any programme of major regulatory divergence are only achievable at such huge cost that it would require an even more reckless government than this one to undertake it',  and that's the main reason why he think brexit's promises were always destined to fail.


----------



## ska invita (Jan 7, 2022)

bimble said:


> if Farage and friends really want to see a US style health service, if that's their 'ultimate goal' or was a part of their vision for brexit all along *(i'm not convinced of this) *


Why not? have you not seen the video of him saying such? or the leaked dossier? Or the ongoing buy up of surgeries by US companies. Liam Fox's provisional trade deal and Sunak meeting with US healthcare companies a couple of weeks ago should be all the warning we need. But all that aside, what do you think neoliberal Tories want for the UK? Even without the evidence this is what we should expect after decades of previous.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 7, 2022)

bimble said:


> if Farage and friends really want to see a US style health service, if that's their 'ultimate goal' or was a part of their vision for brexit all along (i'm not convinced of this) even so hardly anybody else (voters i mean) wants to see that do they.
> Idk, anyhow the writer there is convinced that 'any programme of major regulatory divergence are only achievable at such huge cost that it would require an even more reckless government than this one to undertake it',  and that's the main reason why he think brexit's promises were always destined to fail.


I have seen farage say that in front of parliament. But please ignore what they actually say, obvs they don't mean it


----------



## bimble (Jan 7, 2022)

Why would you have to brexit in order to further privatise the health service though? You don't, so i'm not convinced the two things are really related. And anyway whatever they may want they know that the voters are definitely not with them on this one. They even stuck the NHS on the brexit bus because they know how people feel about it.


----------



## ska invita (Jan 7, 2022)

bimble said:


> the writer there is convinced that 'any programme of major regulatory divergence are only achievable at such huge cost that it* would require an even more reckless government than this one to undertake it',*  and that's the main reason why he think brexit's promises were always destined to fail.


its called successive tory governments


----------



## ska invita (Jan 7, 2022)

bimble said:


> Why would you have to brexit in order to further privatise the health service though? You don't,


its a fair point, but its part of a more general programme and ideological drive to deregulate and privatise, of which EU rules were a hinderance. The NHS sell off is symbolic of the wider picture


----------



## ska invita (Jan 7, 2022)

bimble said:


> And anyway whatever they may want they know that the voters are definitely not with them on this one.


and yet it is already happening
the timeframe is long - much longer than reactionary remainer articles - thats the point i was making


----------



## bimble (Jan 7, 2022)

ska invita said:


> and yet it is already happening


Sure. ‘Public private partnership’ stuff, was happening before brexit was even a twinkle in farage’s eye.


----------



## ska invita (Jan 7, 2022)

bimble said:


> Sure. ‘Public private partnership’ stuff, was happening before brexit was even a twinkle in farage’s eye.





ska invita said:


> its a fair point, but its part of a more general programme and ideological drive to deregulate and privatise, of which EU rules were a hinderance. The NHS sell off is symbolic of the wider picture


----------



## bimble (Jan 7, 2022)

Yeah fair enough. Deregulation was definitely a long term goal, and if voters actually want it or not might turn out to be irrelevant.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 7, 2022)

ska invita said:


> its called successive tory governments


Bimble's argument is one I heard on Whitehall at the student protests - they won't pen us in on _whitehall_ - they wouldn't do that. But they did, they are and unless checked they will


----------



## contadino (Jan 7, 2022)

bimble said:


> Why would you have to brexit in order to further privatise the health service though? You don't, so i'm not convinced the two things are really related. And anyway whatever they may want they know that the voters are definitely not with them on this one. They even stuck the NHS on the brexit bus because they know how people feel about it.


There's a raft of biotech being pushed by the US that's incompatible with EU health regulations. GM crops and their associated pesticides, light-touch pharma regulation, etc... It's not just the NHS that brexit hands over, it's the whole food chain too.


----------



## TopCat (Jan 7, 2022)

bimble said:


> I'm sure everyone here will enjoy this article as much as i did.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


For if – and in my view when - that judgment pronounces Brexit not just a mistake or a disappointment but an abject failure and a disastrous folly, then new possibilities will flow.

Bless


----------



## ska invita (Jan 7, 2022)

bimble said:


> Yeah fair enough. Deregulation was definitely a long term goal, and if voters actually want it or not might turn out to be irrelevant.


Of course voters interests are "irrelevant" - as are "brexit's promises" "destined to fail" or otherwise. That is the nature of govenrment by elite. Theres a bit of media management required, but theyre good at that - for example they're already successfully saying Freeports and Charter Cities are a sign of Levelling up and Brexit Dividend. They are adept at saying Night is Day.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 7, 2022)

TopCat said:


> For if – and in my view when - that judgment pronounces Brexit not just a mistake or a disappointment but an abject failure and a disastrous folly, then new possibilities will flow.
> 
> Bless


These things take time 

What's pissed me off is people who think that if it doesn't happen _now_ it'll never happen. What brexit has done is accelerate a range of contradictions which are only now _beginning_ to bear fruit.


----------



## bimble (Jan 7, 2022)

TopCat said:


> For if – and in my view when - that judgment pronounces Brexit not just a mistake or a disappointment but an abject failure and a disastrous folly, then new possibilities will flow.
> 
> Bless


does the word bless mean that you think brexit will _not_ go down in history as an abject failure and a disastrous folly? That's sweet.


----------



## TopCat (Jan 7, 2022)

bimble said:


> does the word bless mean that you think brexit will _not_ go down in history as an abject failure and a disastrous folly? That's sweet.


We got divorced, at last, it's still great.


----------



## bimble (Jan 7, 2022)

If I ever got divorced I’d probably enjoy it more if the ex didn’t live right next door forever.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 7, 2022)

bimble said:


> If I ever got divorced I’d probably enjoy it more if the ex didn’t live right next door forever.


you could move


----------



## Spymaster (Jan 7, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> you could move



That's what Bahnhof Strasse did when he was told that 95% of all traffic accidents occur within a mile of your home.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 7, 2022)

Spymaster said:


> That's what Bahnhof Strasse did when he was told that 95% of all traffic accidents occur within a mile of your home.


and since he moved more than a mile from me he reports no accidents.


----------



## ska invita (Jan 7, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> you could move


to the USA

simplistically, in its present incarnation Brexit is about swapping the EU for the USA+(dreams of 'Global' Britian). A dangerous swap. If something lexity can come of it long term well then great, but I dont see much reason to be hopeful of that in the short-mid term.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 7, 2022)

ska invita said:


> to the USA


bimble's never really struck me as someone who'd enjoy living in the states.


----------



## ska invita (Jan 7, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> bimble's never really struck me as someone who'd enjoy living in the states.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jan 7, 2022)

ska invita said:


>




Looks like Staines Google Maps


----------



## two sheds (Jan 7, 2022)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Looks like Staines Google Maps


Don't know, can't see his trousers in that shot.


----------



## gosub (Jan 7, 2022)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Looks like Staines Google Maps


Tree philistine.


Thats Floridaman


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jan 9, 2022)

Defra PEACH plant export IT system only works with IE11
					

You know, the browser used by 0.34% of netizens nowadays




					www.theregister.com


----------



## gosub (Jan 9, 2022)

Artaxerxes said:


> Defra PEACH plant export IT system only works with IE11
> 
> 
> You know, the browser used by 0.34% of netizens nowadays
> ...


How much money did HMG spend on -Are you ready for Brexit ad campaign? Who knew that included reinstalling obselete and unsupported  software.   Probably be easier just to fax them the info


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jan 9, 2022)

gosub said:


> How much money did HMG spend on -Are you ready for Brexit ad campaign? Who knew that included reinstalling obselete and unsupported  software.   Probably be easier just to fax them the info



At least a tenner, maybe twenty quid


----------



## TopCat (Jan 12, 2022)

‘No running water’: foreign workers criticise UK farm labour scheme
					

Government report on post-Brexit recruitment finds staff citing no health and safety equipment, racism and unsafe accommodation




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## brogdale (Jan 12, 2022)

TopCat said:


> ‘No running water’: foreign workers criticise UK farm labour scheme
> 
> 
> Government report on post-Brexit recruitment finds staff citing no health and safety equipment, racism and unsafe accommodation
> ...


The farmy cunts down in Kent have be getting away with treating their seasonal workforce like this for years and years.


----------



## Yossarian (Jan 13, 2022)




----------



## The39thStep (Jan 13, 2022)

Don't think she's taken the divorce well but fair play  to her for trying to start anew


----------



## ska invita (Jan 13, 2022)




----------



## Badgers (Jan 17, 2022)




----------



## brogdale (Jan 18, 2022)

Have also posted this in the appropriate UK Covid thread, but I thought it might produce some discussion here.
I know that expressing a voting preference for REFUK doesn't exactly equate to pro-Brexit, but I'm assuming it's a pretty close fit.



e2a: should have said; the data is from the latest (Wave 21) British Electoral Study with a 30k+ sample size which gave a REFUK sub-set sample size of 478.


----------



## Jennaonthebeach (Jan 20, 2022)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Which is why I have not posted on a single one, in spite of having a daughter who considers herself trans but I can’t ask the community here for help/advice cos of the way that shit goes.


Isn't someone who considers themselves trans just trans, or is there some sort of committee for designating trans people that I'm unaware of?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jan 20, 2022)

Jennaonthebeach said:


> Isn't someone who considers themselves trans just trans, or is there some sort of committee for designating trans people that I'm unaware of?




Thank you for demonstrating what I was on about.


----------



## Jennaonthebeach (Jan 20, 2022)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Thank you for demonstrating what I was on about.


i have no idea what you mean.
(hate to say it, but maybe the problem isn't everybody else)


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jan 20, 2022)

Jennaonthebeach said:


> i have no idea what you mean.
> (hate to say it, but maybe the problem isn't everybody else)




Oh just fuck off.


----------



## bimble (Jan 20, 2022)

brogdale said:


> Have also posted this in the appropriate UK Covid thread, but I thought it might produce some discussion here.
> I know that expressing a voting preference for REFUK doesn't exactly equate to pro-Brexit, but I'm assuming it's a pretty close fit.
> 
> 
> ...



I’m surprised by that. I know farage is pro-covid but that low vaccination rate in the older age group of reform uk fans is kind of alarming. Those are people who are properly committed to their delusions.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 20, 2022)

bimble said:


> I’m surprised by that. I know farage is pro-covid but that low vaccination rate in the older age group of reform uk fans is kind of alarming. Those are people who are properly committed to their delusions.


Farage can kiss his votes goodbye one by one as they succumb


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 20, 2022)

Jennaonthebeach said:


> i have no idea what you mean.
> (hate to say it, but maybe the problem isn't everybody else)


No indeed, I think we can all see who the problem is


----------



## brogdale (Jan 20, 2022)

bimble said:


> I’m surprised by that. I know farage is pro-covid but that low vaccination rate in the older age group of reform uk fans is kind of alarming. Those are people who are properly committed to their delusions.


Yeah, normally I'd warn against thinner sample sizes at the more aged end, but with the REFuks I'd imagine that the bulk of the 478 sample were up there in the over 60 cohorts.


----------



## Badgers (Jan 21, 2022)

Not heard much about this 🤔


----------



## teqniq (Jan 21, 2022)

Yes, I saw that yesterday. I't showing up on Google maps as well. Also there's this vid:


----------



## brogdale (Jan 21, 2022)

Badgers said:


> Not heard much about this 🤔



Reported as 8k atm.

useful site if you're interested in monitoring


----------



## two sheds (Jan 21, 2022)

The government knows that if lorries are passing through woods on a road near Dover but no cameras are on the jam doesn't exist.


----------



## philosophical (Jan 21, 2022)

The Ostrich manoeuvre.


----------



## philosophical (Jan 21, 2022)

Want to take this opportunity to remind any lexiters here that they have quite deliberately caused things to be shit for workers who drive stuff for us back and forth.
For what?
For some kind of ignorant pose that they are building a better world?
Every leave vote was a conscious act, they are totally responsible for the shit, and also responsible for this huge majority for these ‘get Brexit done’ bastards.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 21, 2022)

Badgers said:


> Not heard much about this 🤔



is that THE terry christian, late of the word?


----------



## ska invita (Jan 21, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> is that THE terry christian, late of the word?


yeah hes a full on remainiac


----------



## Badgers (Jan 21, 2022)




----------



## Spymaster (Jan 21, 2022)

Badgers said:


>




 What are these "new rules" that cause post to go missing?


----------



## Badgers (Jan 21, 2022)

Spymaster said:


> What are these "new rules" that cause post to go missing?


New rules from January? 

Am sure you have seen all the Tory government adverts telling people what to do?


----------



## Spymaster (Jan 21, 2022)

Badgers said:


> New rules from January?
> 
> Am sure you have seen all the Tory government adverts telling people what to do?



Yes. But now you just have to stick a customs label on stuff to Europe. It's no massive hardship. 

Which new rules make stuff "go missing" in the post?


----------



## Badgers (Jan 21, 2022)

Spymaster said:


> Yes. But now you just have to stick a customs label on stuff to Europe. It's no massive hardship.
> 
> Which new rules make stuff "go missing" in the post?


Not arguing with you mate. However we have 10+ miles outside ports and Customs/HMRC have no support and especially training.


----------



## ska invita (Jan 21, 2022)

I've experience of this - mail order to the EU is fucked
Sticking the customs label on it is the easy bit - though time consuming if you have a lot of mail order
When items arrive there is a lottery as whether the recipient has to pay a tax on it - a lottery decided by if the letter gets picked out or not. Most often it does IME.
The tax charge is WAY over what the acutall VAT element is - its extortionate

In theory it is possible to get the customer to pay the VAT element ahead of posting, which would remove this lottery and over charging aspect
To become eligible to be able to charge the tax costs thousands of pounds to register - big companies can do this, small traders no chance
Then the VAT element is different for every country so to be able to calculate this and charge at the point of sale is a computing nightmare
-so small traders have no chance

Then there's lost post. Non-UK post is incredibly slow and very often lost this last year, and this xmas was next level. Covid is a big factor for sure, but it would make sense that the extra level of bureaucracy is also slowing things down. 
how post ever gets lost I dont know, but its happening a lot now. Tracked post ( a lot more expensive) is becoming a necessity

Complaints of lost post and unexpected (and high) charges are many
Makes total sense that people are giving up on it


----------



## Badgers (Jan 21, 2022)

On paper it seems easy to deal with new import/export times and costs. The reality (aside from short term better wages for drivers) this is a shitshow of paperwork, government underfunding and much more.

If you are happy to live with this 'short term pains' then your grandchildren and/or great grandchildren might get a Sunlit benefit 😊

Anyone who thinks the Tories can manage something like this (while lining their pockets) is a fucking fool. 

I empathise with ANTI-EU rhetoric as I do with many trading countries. However none of you can consider this a good idea (short term) or a good idea under this Beshitted government or failures.


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 21, 2022)

Spymaster said:


> Yes. But now you just have to stick a customs label on stuff to Europe. It's no massive hardship.
> 
> Which new rules make stuff "go missing" in the post?


Very informative, if puzzling thread from MrBigGreenBookshop ("A one man book-selling machine")  There's clearly a problem but the mystery deepens as the thread develops:

Germany seems to be  a particular problem for this phenomena 



however, Jonathon Stott has also had problems with Italy as has Sharon Hattersly, a Brownie leader



Sweden ( where incidentally there has been citings of drones flying over restricted places in the last few days) also seems to be a blackhole for postal deliveries



Some good news about Hawaii though 



Although depressingly all isn't even good in the States however Canada sounds promising 



Seems the US also has problems with the EU as well but not clear

https://twitter.com/j_pineo/status/1484286255835795457?s=20

This business has got problems posting anywhere outside the UK ( which to be fair to MrGreenBookshop  is actually his original complaint  not Brexit)

https://twitter.com/BMonstersBooks/status/1484452191289192451?s=20

But some don't and BigGreenBookshop is going to find out how they do it and he can't

https://twitter.com/Biggreenbooks/status/1484275089503928325?s=20

https://twitter.com/Biggreenbooks/status/1484279005721284614?s=20


----------



## spitfire (Jan 21, 2022)

fuck it. cba.


----------



## ska invita (Jan 21, 2022)

the USA postal service is in a degree of meltdown - it is now more expensive to post to the USA than Australia from the UK
there are overlapping problems with covid and brexit and god knows what other factors


----------



## two sheds (Jan 21, 2022)

they only recently sacked their trumpian postmaster didn't they? His aim did  seem to have been to destroy the system.


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 21, 2022)

Postage/delivery between here and the UK , pre and post Brexit has always been a little hit and miss. For example pre brexit a present from the UK never arrived although the sender got her money back from Royal Mail, post Brexit I sent a signed hardcopy of a legal document back to the UK which arrived within 4 days. 

Deliveries within the EU aren't always quicker than deliveries from the UK and have on a couple of occasions never arrived. Transport costs can be very high within the EU and some of the UK transport costs are eye watering.


----------



## MrSki (Jan 21, 2022)

ETA love this rely.


----------



## MrSki (Jan 21, 2022)

National Highways deny CCTV has been intentionally switched off.










						National Highways deny CCTV of Brexit queues was intentionally turned off
					

National Highways rejected claims that they would have deliberately switched off traffic cameras showing Brexit-related lorry queues.




					www.thelondoneconomic.com


----------



## T & P (Jan 21, 2022)

I come to this thread this evening for a much needed dose of positiveness and harmony, after venturing in the Brewdog thread.

Sorry for the derail. As you were…


----------



## bimble (Jan 22, 2022)

The mad optimism of the true brexiteer, beautifully demonstrated here by mr banks.


----------



## teqniq (Jan 22, 2022)

Fuck me. He's properly full of shit isn't he? As a side note i am keeping my fingers crosses that he loses the libel case he bought against Carole Cadwallader.

E2a just read a scathing critique of 'The bad boys of Braxit', Bank's book penned by Isabel Oakeshott.


----------



## ska invita (Jan 22, 2022)

smoking the strong stuff


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 22, 2022)

I do find that the latest photography project of the Remainistas , that of lorry queues, to be more aesthetically pleasing . Also better for health , outdoors, sea winds etc. The supermarket self ones were often out of focus, poorly composed and to be frank, I doubt if many are still hanging on the walls of their homes.


----------



## Yossarian (Jan 22, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> I do find that the latest photography project of the Remainistas , that of lorry queues, to be more aesthetically pleasing . Also better for health , outdoors, sea winds etc. The supermarket self ones were often out of focus, poorly composed and to be frank, I doubt if many are still hanging on the walls of their homes.



And like with the supermarket shelves, people are being very selective by not including photos of all the roads that aren't clogged with lorries.


----------



## two sheds (Jan 22, 2022)

at least all those lorry drivers are productively WFH, they can catch up with all their paperwork and phone calls.


----------



## ska invita (Jan 22, 2022)

Supposedly biometric checks are going to be introduced in September 2022 and this will add "2 minutes of processing time per person" , which'll add miles onto queues. Not fun for the drivers


----------



## teqniq (Jan 22, 2022)

But what if the sea is closed?


----------



## Badgers (Jan 22, 2022)

teqniq said:


> But what if the sea is closed?



Use HS2?


----------



## Badgers (Jan 23, 2022)

Seems to be closer to 30km now


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 23, 2022)

I quite like this one


----------



## ska invita (Jan 23, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> I quite like this one
> 
> View attachment 306976


If thats what I think it is its a lovely cliftop walk along the left hand side of the picture, Folkestone to Dover, one of my favourite walks that
its just the last bit near Dover where you see the road

i think its here








						Google Maps
					

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.




					www.google.com


----------



## contadino (Jan 23, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> I quite like this one
> 
> View attachment 306976


Yes, great photo. On the right it captures a real essence of a vibrant export sector, and on the left you get a clear insight into how current shortages are just a blip.


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 23, 2022)

Surprised that none has posted up this recent and rather touching gesture from the ex ( or part of the ex but for analogy's sake we'll have to just say obviously in a good mood at the mo but behaviour can be unpredictable ) .


----------



## philosophical (Jan 27, 2022)

Yesterday at Prime Ministers Questions Boris Johnson was asked about the Northern Ireland Protocol he suggested and signed up to.
He said that it is such a bummer that the EU are sticking to his agreement.
Which of course is another example of his attitude to the rules (see also fidelity, lies, coronavirus etc).
Today in Stormont there will be a debate and conflict between Sinn Fein and the DUP. Sinn Fein are content that the Irish Sea Border situation should remain and continue, but the DUP are pissed off with it.
There had previously been relative harmony in Ireland, but this malarkey is another step inching towards conflict.

All of this present problem can be traced back directly to every single person who voted leave.
They may have thought there could be a work round.
They may have been ignorant.
They may have expected a hard border on the island.
They may have thought there would be a kind of Ealing Comedy turn a blind eye solution.
They may be anti Irish and want conflict leading to death and destruction.

Whatever leave voters may be, what they certainly are is cunts.
Every single one of them, with a special higher grade of cuntishness for leave voters purporting to be of the left.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Jan 27, 2022)




----------



## Badgers (Jan 27, 2022)

Seems to be improving 👍


----------



## ska invita (Jan 27, 2022)

government lying? I dont believe it


----------



## Anju (Jan 28, 2022)

I take back everything I said about Brexit for now I have drunk from the Brexit chalice, which was of course hidden in a remainer's bathroom unable to release it's power as they didn't have a single union jack flying.


----------



## TopCat (Jan 29, 2022)

ska invita said:


> Supposedly biometric checks are going to be introduced in September 2022 and this will add "2 minutes of processing time per person" , which'll add miles onto queues. Not fun for the drivers


Wasn't this an EU wide project? To introduce biometric checks at all ports? I think it was and we stuck with it. Long gone are the days of going to France on a dodgy visitors passport.


----------



## bimble (Jan 29, 2022)




----------



## teqniq (Jan 29, 2022)

As if anyone with half a brain cell thought there could be another reason:


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 29, 2022)

teqniq said:


> As if anyone with half a brain cell thought there could be another reason:



Investigative journalism at its best


----------



## Duncan2 (Jan 29, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Investigative journalism at its best


The cameras are all pointing up


----------



## TopCat (Jan 29, 2022)

teqniq said:


> As if anyone with half a brain cell thought there could be another reason:



Is that Badgers ?


----------



## bluescreen (Jan 29, 2022)

Thanks to Dystopiary for drawing attention to this









						MP steps in human poo in layby on Brexit trip to Kent
					

An MP on a trip to Kent experienced the traffic difficulties post Brexit first-hand when he stepped in human poo in a layby.




					www.kentonline.co.uk


----------



## bimble (Jan 31, 2022)

I’m really excited about Boris Johnson’s imminent Brexit Freedoms Bill, it’s going to be great.


----------



## bimble (Jan 31, 2022)

Ooh he’s done a piece of writing in the daily mail today, the prime minister mr brexit, to celebrate all the brilliant stuff that’s already happened as a result of brexit. Crowns on pints being key, again.


----------



## Ax^ (Jan 31, 2022)

blueish passports , crowns on pints and lower insurance of electric mower!!!


say it one say it all FreeeDummm


----------



## bimble (Jan 31, 2022)

its great cos its golf buggies as well, if you were still in the eu you'd have to insure your golf buggies and ride-on lawnmowers soon but now you wont have to. thank fuck for that. 




__





						UK government to scrap EU insurance law - Admiral
					

Brexit sees EU law dropped that would’ve required owners of golf buggies, mobility scooters and quad bikes to buy insurance.




					www.admiral.com


----------



## Boris Sprinkler (Jan 31, 2022)

you know, we can get pints here. I don't drink anymore, but word is you can get a pint in some bodegas for as low as £2.50


----------



## bimble (Jan 31, 2022)

Boris Sprinkler said:


> you know, we can get pints here. I don't drink anymore, but word is you can get a pint in some bodegas for as low as £2.50


ye but do they have little stamps of a crown on


----------



## philosophical (Jan 31, 2022)

I heard a government Brexit bastard on the radio this morning going on about the benefits of Brexit and further potential action to change old EU regulations.
He said the Northern Ireland protocol needs change, the presenter didn’t press the point, he said the EU are honouring the agreement which isn’t what they’re supposed to do.
The UK is over here, the EU is over there, and in Ireland there is a land border.
No Brexit bastard including those here who like to pretend superiority has suggested a workable solution to the land border there in the light of leaving.
There are not many degrees of separation needed to come to the conclusion that leave voters are anti Irish racists, especially as it is an age old tradition indulged by English bastards.


----------



## Boris Sprinkler (Jan 31, 2022)

Yes. And it’s vaguely related. Our horse faced aristocracy are from the same (ball)bag.


----------



## Ax^ (Jan 31, 2022)

odd thing about the who crown mark is no law ever banned it in the UK 


only thing that was required from the eu was a ce mark. now the crown mark could have also been applied but who want to spend money on secondary engraving If you don't need to 


but Frreeendommm


----------



## bluescreen (Jan 31, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> odd thing about the who crown mark is no law ever banned it in the UK
> 
> 
> only thing that was required from the eu was a ce mark. now the crown mark could have also been applied but who want to spend money on secondary engraving If you don't need to
> ...


Neither was a blue passport banned.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jan 31, 2022)

Excellent and cogent analysis from Larry Elliot as usual. He's right that the predicted apocalypse of cancelled Christmases, a collapse of exports, economic meltdown, capital flight etc etc etc have failed to materialise. He is also right that the post-Brexit future is up for grabs opening up the space for Labour to set out a vision for a proper industrial strategy, intervention in jobs and communities via a green new deal and common ownership, a radical expansion of ideas like the Preston model. The problem, of course, is the Labour Party and the paucity of its leadership. 









						The post-Brexit economic crisis never materialised – Labour is right to move on | Larry Elliott
					

The unpopular truth is that leaving the EU has not magically transformed Britain, but nor has it been calamitous, says Larry Elliott, the Guardian’s economics editor




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## rubbershoes (Jan 31, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Excellent and cogent analysis from Larry Elliot as usual. He's right that the predicted apocalypse of cancelled Christmases, a collapse of exports, economic meltdown, capital flight etc etc etc have failed to materialise. He is also right that the post-Brexit future is up for grabs opening up the space for Labour to set out a vision for a proper industrial strategy, intervention in jobs and communities via a green new deal and common ownership, a radical expansion of ideas like the Preston model. The problem, of course, is the Labour Party and the paucity of its leadership.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Good luck with that.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jan 31, 2022)

bimble said:


> Ooh he’s done a piece of writing in the daily mail today, the prime minister mr brexit, to celebrate all the brilliant stuff that’s already happened as a result of brexit. Crowns on pints being key, again.
> 
> View attachment 308153



Cutting air duty within the uk, top move within a climate crisis innit. 

Excuse to fuck around and not pay for decent trains or buses


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jan 31, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Excellent and cogent analysis from Larry Elliot as usual. He's right that the predicted apocalypse of cancelled Christmases, a collapse of exports, economic meltdown, capital flight etc etc etc have failed to materialise. He is also right that the post-Brexit future is up for grabs opening up the space for Labour to set out a vision for a proper industrial strategy, intervention in jobs and communities via a green new deal and common ownership, a radical expansion of ideas like the Preston model. The problem, of course, is the Labour Party and the paucity of its leadership.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




That ship sank when Labour did the chicken coup and it’s not coming back


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Jan 31, 2022)

Artaxerxes said:


> That ship sank when Labour did the chicken coup and it’s not coming back


Precisely why lexit was and remains a busted flush. Depending on the Labour Party to reshape the post Brexit landscape in favour of workers is, to put it mildly, preposterous. Even if Corbyn had won it was only a slim chance. 

I wish I could share the optimism that some feel about anything happening outside of the parliamentary system but I'm officially middle aged now and there's barely been a whiff of it so far in my lifetime.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jan 31, 2022)




----------



## Anju (Jan 31, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Excellent and cogent analysis from Larry Elliot as usual. He's right that the predicted apocalypse of cancelled Christmases, a collapse of exports, economic meltdown, capital flight etc etc etc have failed to materialise. He is also right that the post-Brexit future is up for grabs opening up the space for Labour to set out a vision for a proper industrial strategy, intervention in jobs and communities via a green new deal and common ownership, a radical expansion of ideas like the Preston model. The problem, of course, is the Labour Party and the paucity of its leadership.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



So we have a space for Labour to set out a vision for an industrial strategy, though other than setting VAT rates it's not made clear what's changed post EU. I know you think freedom from EU state aid rules is a benefit but I've not seen any plans for use of state aid which couldn't have been implemented within those rules. Infrastructure projects are the only proposals I have seen and they're exempt from the rules already. 

Luckily having control of VAT rates has long been known as the most effective weapon in the fight for a better world. Yay.

Meanwhile what's actually happening is this, a bill to allow easier scrapping of any bits EU law that might get in the way of the free market right wing Brexit we're getting. 








						Government plans to ‘cut £1bn in red tape’ with new post-Brexit legislation
					

No 10 announces bill to change status of EU law in legal framework but critics say leaving bloc has already led to billions in expenses




					www.theguardian.com
				




Direction of travel, turn right for US style nightmare, remains the same. Still, at least we're not limited like Spain who've only been able to do this to try and mitigate the impact of rising energy prices.

"Spain, which along with Italy and Portugal has experienced a steep rise in energy costs, has already slashed energy taxes, scrapped a 7% tax on power generation, cut an energy tariff on consumers from 5.1% to 0.5% and reduced the sales tax on household energy from 21% to 10%."


----------



## Yossarian (Jan 31, 2022)

Just realised that it's exactly two years since Britain left the EU and the first COVID case in the UK was confirmed on the same day - I'm surprised they never tried to create a Brexit Day holiday.


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 31, 2022)

Anju said:


> So we have a space for Labour to set out a vision for an industrial strategy, though other than setting VAT rates it's not made clear what's changed post EU. I know you think freedom from EU state aid rules is a benefit but I've not seen any plans for use of state aid which couldn't have been implemented within those rules. Infrastructure projects are the only proposals I have seen and they're exempt from the rules already.
> 
> Luckily having control of VAT rates has long been known as the most effective weapon in the fight for a better world. Yay.
> 
> ...


Fees and taxes  on electricity (the largest  company EDP is owned by the Chinese ) is around 40% of the bill in Portugal


----------



## Anju (Feb 1, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Fees and taxes  on electricity (the largest  company EDP is owned by the Chinese ) is around 40% of the bill in Portugal



Was reading about Portugal and the figures I saw show 67% of household electricity bills are from taxes and tariffs. 









						Portugal 2021 – Analysis - IEA
					

Portugal 2021 - Analysis and key findings. A report by the International Energy Agency.




					www.iea.org


----------



## bimble (Feb 1, 2022)

Yossarian said:


> Just realised that it's exactly two years since Britain left the EU and the first COVID case in the UK was confirmed on the same day - I'm surprised they never tried to create a Brexit Day holiday.


There was this beautifully designed image that got posted by several conservative MPs yesterday, to mark the happy day. The fonts are great, all the aesthetic charm of a really shit happy birthday father in law card.  They will put their logo on anything.


----------



## existentialist (Feb 1, 2022)

bimble said:


> There was this beautifully designed image that got posted by several conservative MPs yesterday, to mark the happy day. The fonts are great, all the aesthetic charm of a really shit happy birthday father in law card.  They will put their logo on anything.View attachment 308267


Clunky. Like the sentiment.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 1, 2022)

existentialist said:


> Clunky. Like the sentiment.


I suppose it says something that there is no actual organic recognition, marking or 'celebration' of such 'anniversary' dates out there in the real world; it's only in the mind of the governing party responsible for the change in our trading arrangements.


----------



## existentialist (Feb 1, 2022)

brogdale said:


> I suppose it says something that there is no actual organic recognition, marking or 'celebration' of such 'anniversary' dates out there in the real world; it's only in the mind of the governing party responsible for the change in our trading arrangements.


And desperate for any straw they can clutch to claim a win out of something...


----------



## High Voltage (Feb 1, 2022)

It feels a LOT longer than only two years


----------



## brogdale (Feb 1, 2022)

High Voltage said:


> It feels a LOT longer than only two years


Well, it is, isn't it?
In June it'll be 6 years since the referendum and then you have to factor in the 18 months that preceded it during which the vermin propelled the suprastate to be the only newsworthy issue.


----------



## ska invita (Feb 1, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Excellent and cogent analysis from Larry Elliot as usual. He's right that the predicted apocalypse of cancelled Christmases, a collapse of exports, economic meltdown, capital flight etc etc etc have failed to materialise. He is also right that the post-Brexit future is up for grabs opening up the space for Labour to set out a vision for a proper industrial strategy, intervention in jobs and communities via a green new deal and common ownership, a radical expansion of ideas like the Preston model. The problem, of course, is the Labour Party and the paucity of its leadership.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



dont think we needed Brexit so as to "open up the space" for the Preston Model, but still, Larry Elliot was right in reporting and agreeing with this CBI analysis, which still stands - the deflating balloon model:








						UK retail sales show Brexit effect will be more slow puncture than car crash | Larry Elliott
					

The CBI data should be treated with caution but alongside other evidence it is clear that if the post-referendum economy declines it will do so slowly




					www.theguardian.com
				



...in terms of economics that was what was expected and thats what seems to be happening - anecdotally and from trade figures.

heres the latest a year in:
"The government's official forecasters, the Office of Budget Responsibility, said the latest actual data were consistent with its forecasts from five years ago that the "trade intensity" of the UK economy could fall by 15% "a decade and a half."


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 1, 2022)

rubbershoes said:


> Good luck with that.





Good luck with that


----------



## bimble (Feb 1, 2022)

this has been published, thought i'd stick it here to read and marvel at later.


			https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1051323/benefits-of-brexit.pdf


----------



## teuchter (Feb 1, 2022)

The choice of cover image is interesting. I wonder if there were meetings about it.


----------



## Yossarian (Feb 1, 2022)

bimble said:


> There was this beautifully designed image that got posted by several conservative MPs yesterday, to mark the happy day. The fonts are great, all the aesthetic charm of a really shit happy birthday father in law card.  They will put their logo on anything.View attachment 308267



They're keeping the faith in Kettering.









						Kettering pub celebrates Brexit with anniversary bash
					

Punters turned out to mark the two-year anniversary of 'Brexit Day'




					www.northantstelegraph.co.uk


----------



## Raheem (Feb 1, 2022)

Yossarian said:


> They're keeping the faith in Kettering.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Drinking Guinness, the traitors.


----------



## Badgers (Feb 1, 2022)

Yossarian said:


> They're keeping the faith in Kettering.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


marty21 🤔


----------



## brogdale (Feb 1, 2022)

Yossarian said:


> They're keeping the faith in Kettering.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Reminds me of Rosindell's bash...the one that prompted a twitter question that got me blocked.


----------



## spitfire (Feb 1, 2022)

brogdale said:


> Reminds me of Rosindell's bash...the one that prompted a twitter question that got me blocked.
> 
> 
> View attachment 308347



Oh that’s worth a follow.


----------



## bimble (Feb 2, 2022)

the government's Benefits Of Brexit document i highly recommend it, genuinely cried loling reading bits of it with a friend yesterday evening.
It is full of stupidnesses of so many different kinds, a whole load of stuff that has absolutely nothing to do with leaving the EU, the use of World Beating almost as many times as the words Agile, Forward Looking, and Freedom. There's also stuff about quantum mechanics and harris tweed and how we will have the best Border in the whole world.
The thing that isnt funny though is that there is basically one theme a single idea running through the 108 pages and it is Deregulation, "Regulation only where absolutely necessary", ie getting rid of whatever stands in the way of business.


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Feb 2, 2022)

bimble said:


> Deregulation, "Regulation only where absolutely necessary", ie getting rid of whatever stands in the way of business.


Don't worry! Keir Starmer will save us and capitalism will be shaken to its very foundations. It will crumble to dust because of one island nation's decision to leave a trading block.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 2, 2022)

A touch of UDI?

I feel a philosophical post coming on...


----------



## Ax^ (Feb 2, 2022)

tbf edwin poots is a creationist , a homophobe, a racist and a fucking hat stand to boot


he was saying carnovirus favored catholics in recent history


him having spent time  being the leader of the DUP is a throwback and a embrasement to the party


let see who listens to him


----------



## philosophical (Feb 2, 2022)

I understand Poots has been deselected for his area in the next of his elections.
Who would have thought the post leave border situation could be a problem in Ireland eh?


----------



## TopCat (Feb 2, 2022)

philosophical said:


> I heard a government Brexit bastard on the radio this morning going on about the benefits of Brexit and further potential action to change old EU regulations.
> He said the Northern Ireland protocol needs change, the presenter didn’t press the point, he said the EU are honouring the agreement which isn’t what they’re supposed to do.
> The UK is over here, the EU is over there, and in Ireland there is a land border.
> No Brexit bastard including those here who like to pretend superiority has suggested a workable solution to the land border there in the light of leaving.
> There are not many degrees of separation needed to come to the conclusion that leave voters are anti Irish racists, especially as it is an age old tradition indulged by English bastards.


I must be self hating Irish! Bring on a United Ireland, in the eu or out, let the people decide.


----------



## two sheds (Feb 3, 2022)

EU Commissioner attacks international law breach over Northern Ireland port checks
					

UK government under fire after attempting to distance itself from the DUP’s decision




					www.independent.co.uk
				




what's going to happen here assuming it keeps up? EU's going to have to block all imports across the border aren't they, although that's not actually possible. And presumably NI would block all exports from Eire, too, in retaliation although that's not actually possible either.


----------



## Badgers (Feb 3, 2022)

Who could have foreseen such issues?


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 3, 2022)

Badgers said:


> Who could have foreseen such issues?


i fear there's a monomaniac among us who has little other conversation


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 3, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> tbf edwin poots is a creationist , a homophobe, a racist and a fucking hat stand to boot
> 
> 
> he was saying carnovirus favored catholics in recent history
> ...


he's by no means an embarrassment to the party, being their most forward thinking and progressive member


----------



## philosophical (Feb 3, 2022)

TopCat said:


> I must be self hating Irish! Bring on a United Ireland, in the eu or out, let the people decide.



Yeah right, you voted leave to get a United Ireland.
I say bollocks to whatever you or any other leave voter now say your reason for the vote was.
The one definite factor was that on the ballot paper it said the UK would leave the EU.
Not a vote for a United Ireland but a vote for further and deeper division…the clue is in the word ‘leave’.
You can retrofit a justification all you like, but it is disingenuous equivocation declared by cunt leave voters.


----------



## two sheds (Feb 3, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> i fear there's a monomaniac among us who has little other conversation


no idea who you mean


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 3, 2022)

two sheds said:


> no idea who you mean


how fortunate you are


----------



## philosophical (Feb 3, 2022)

Stalker alert.


----------



## two sheds (Feb 3, 2022)

yes sorry about that, I'll stop now


----------



## Ax^ (Feb 3, 2022)

so the DUP is throwing it toys our of the pram against and closing stormount

guessing they want some more cash to throw around


----------



## Badgers (Feb 3, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> so the DUP is throwing it toys our of the pram against and closing stormount
> 
> guessing they want some more cash to throw around


The Tories are probably already arranging a Russian donor to wire the filthy money to them.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 3, 2022)

philosophical said:


> Stalker alert.


I didn't say anything like this when you started 'liking' my posts. But you hold yourself to different standards than you expect from other people


----------



## philosophical (Feb 3, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> I didn't say anything like this when you started 'liking' my posts. But you hold yourself to different standards than you expect from other people


I have liked any of your posts?
News to me.
You stalk me because you have a personal beef, you don’t respond in order to discuss either leave, or how it applies in Ireland.


----------



## Dogsauce (Feb 3, 2022)

two sheds said:


> no idea who you mean


I’m guessing it’s the ever elusive Mr.”You are ignoring content by this member”.


----------



## andysays (Feb 3, 2022)

philosophical said:


> Stalker alert.





Never had you down as a Tarkovsky fan


----------



## philosophical (Feb 3, 2022)

My favourite creative Russian is Anton Chekhov.


----------



## gosub (Feb 3, 2022)

philosophical said:


> My favourite creative Russian is Anton Chekhov.


Nicoli Gogol


----------



## Serge Forward (Feb 3, 2022)

philosophical said:


> My favourite creative Russian is Anton Chekhov.


Lissitzky:


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 3, 2022)

philosophical said:


> I have liked any of your posts?
> News to me.
> You stalk me because you have a personal beef, you don’t respond in order to discuss either leave, or how it applies in Ireland.


I don't stalk you. I posted on this thread before you so if anyone's following anyone it's you following me


----------



## philosophical (Feb 3, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> I don't stalk you.


Put me on ignore.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 3, 2022)

philosophical said:


> Put me on ignore.


To repeat if anyone is following anyone, it's you following me. So pipe down.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Feb 3, 2022)

It’s here lads.


----------



## philosophical (Feb 3, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> To repeat if anyone is following anyone, it's you following me. So pipe down.


Bollocks.
Put me on ignore then your obsession can end.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 3, 2022)

philosophical said:


> Bollocks.
> Put me on ignore then your obsession can end.


It never started


----------



## Yossarian (Feb 3, 2022)

Artaxerxes said:


> It’s here lads.




Why did those slackers only start keeping those kinds of records 30 years ago?


----------



## bimble (Feb 3, 2022)

philosophical said:


> Put me on ignore.


Stop it, it’s not personal it’s not about you he is just like that, life being short you may find it’s improved by putting him on ignore instead of demanding he do it for you.


----------



## existentialist (Feb 3, 2022)

philosophical said:


> Bollocks.
> Put me on ignore then your obsession can end.


Why don't you take ownership of this, put Pickman's Model on ignore, and have nothing further to do with him? That would at least spare us the kind of bickering between you that's going on right now.


----------



## contadino (Feb 3, 2022)

Louis MacNeice said:


> The 1970s just called and would like their anti-working class slogan back.
> 
> Cheers - Louis MacNeice




Oh dear. Thanks to those pay rises, here comes inflation.  Hope someone's got a pithy reply to fend it off with.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Feb 3, 2022)

contadino said:


> Oh dear. Thanks to those pay rises, here comes inflation.  Hope someone's got a pithy reply to fend it off with.




You either haven't read or haven't  understood the material you posted; go and have (re)read of what they are actually saying.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## contadino (Feb 3, 2022)

Louis MacNeice said:


> You either haven't read or haven't  understood the material you posted; go and have (re)read of what they are actually saying.
> 
> Cheers - Louis MacNeice


Appreciate the concern but I've understood it fine, thanks.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Feb 3, 2022)

contadino said:


> Appreciate the concern but I've understood it fine, thanks.


You will be able to point to where the BoE report cites increased wages as the driver for their inflation  forecast, rather than higher prices for energy and goods from abroad, which is what they actually refer to.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## two sheds (Feb 3, 2022)

had tongue in cheek didn't they?


----------



## contadino (Feb 3, 2022)

Louis MacNeice said:


> You will be able to point to where the BoE report cites increased wages as the driver for their inflation  forecast, rather than higher prices for energy and goods from abroad, which is what they actually refer to.
> 
> Cheers - Louis MacNeice


A refreshing change from trying to pin the blame on Covid then. And with the UK having less than 1% of Europe's gas storage infrastucture, and you probably don't see Brexit paying a role in escalating energy price rises either, right?


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Feb 3, 2022)

contadino said:


> A refreshing change from trying to pin the blame on Covid then. And with the UK having less than 1% of Europe's gas storage infrastucture, and you probably don't see Brexit paying a role in escalating energy price rises either, right?


What has that got to do with anything I have just written?

Cheers  - Louis MacNeice


----------



## gosub (Feb 3, 2022)

Artaxerxes said:


> It’s here lads.



 You think thats all Brexit? No inflationary spikes elsewhere or intrest rate rises


----------



## gosub (Feb 3, 2022)

contadino said:


> A refreshing change from trying to pin the blame on Covid then. And with the UK having less than 1% of Europe's gas storage infrastucture, and you probably don't see Brexit paying a role in escalating energy price rises either, right?


 So if Brexit hadn't happened UK would have had more than 1% of EUrope's gas storage infastructure?


----------



## contadino (Feb 3, 2022)

Louis MacNeice said:


> What has that got to do with anything I have just written?
> 
> Cheers  - Louis MacNeice


_Sigh_ Spoon-feeding....

Boris Glass, senior UK Economist at S&P Global Ratings


> The tight labour market was a key element in the Bank’s assessment. Current wage negotiation rounds are likely to yield better than usual results for workers across many sectors and regions. If this trend continues and much higher wages become widely embedded in contracts, employers may have to raise prices further, translating into ongoing higher inflation.
> 
> 
> It’s that risk of unhealthy wage-price-inflation dynamics in the future that the Bank is worried about.











						Cost of living: families face biggest fall in disposable income for three decades, Bank of England warns – as it happened
					

Rolling coverage of the latest economic and financial news




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## contadino (Feb 3, 2022)

gosub said:


> So if Brexit hadn't happened UK would have had more than 1% of EUrope's gas toage infastructure?


The UK used to have access to European storage capacity. Come on, this isn't complicated.


----------



## Spymaster (Feb 3, 2022)

gosub said:


> You think thats all Brexit? No inflationary spikes elsewhere or intrest rate rises



Aye. Absolutely nothing to do with the world being shut down for 2 years by a global pandemic. 

Pure Brexit!


----------



## gosub (Feb 3, 2022)

contadino said:


> The UK used to have access to European storage capacity. Come on, this isn't complicated.


WHich hasn't been filled coz of Gazprom related stuff then with Ukraine thing. probably ahead of the curve in seeking alternative suppliers


----------



## gosub (Feb 3, 2022)

Spymaster said:


> Aye. Absolutely nothing to do with the world being shut down for 2 years by a global pandemic.
> 
> Pure Brexit!


Its a mixture of a lot of things including Pandemic, and Brexit.  But reapplying to join EU won't fix it.


----------



## Yossarian (Feb 3, 2022)

A lot of countries in the EU and elsewhere are experiencing near-identical labour shortages and corresponding pay rises, it seems to have more to do with people being sick with long COVID than with how many immigrants their governments have kept out, so I don't Brexit should be celebrated for creating wage rises - or blamed for inflation by tight-fisted companies trying to avoid raising wages.

But Britain does seem in store for higher inflation than its neighbours, according to a Reuters forecast.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Feb 3, 2022)

contadino said:


> _Sigh_ Spoon-feeding....
> 
> Boris Glass, senior UK Economist at S&P Global Ratings
> 
> ...



That is not from the Bank of England and it doesn't even say that wage increases to date have caused the current rise in inflation. You are really not getting this are you...perhaps there's a hole in your spoon?

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## Ax^ (Feb 3, 2022)

Spymaster said:


> Aye. Absolutely nothing to do with the world being shut down for 2 years by a global pandemic.
> 
> Pure Brexit!



pfft its all Spymaster fault


Get em


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 3, 2022)

gosub said:


> You think thats all Brexit? No inflationary spikes elsewhere or intrest rate rises


----------



## bimble (Feb 3, 2022)

Europe inflation rate by country 2022 | Statista
					

As of October 2022, the inflation rate in the European Union was 11.5 percent, with prices rising fastest in Estonia, which had an inflation rate of 22.5 percent.




					www.statista.com
				



so we are on target to come in 5th, doing better than estonia latvia lithuania and hungary but not as well as Romania?


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 3, 2022)

bimble said:


> Europe inflation rate by country 2022 | Statista
> 
> 
> As of October 2022, the inflation rate in the European Union was 11.5 percent, with prices rising fastest in Estonia, which had an inflation rate of 22.5 percent.
> ...


We are not in the eu


----------



## brogdale (Feb 3, 2022)

Louis MacNeice said:


> You will be able to point to where the BoE report cites increased wages as the driver for their inflation  forecast, rather than higher prices for energy and goods from abroad, which is what they actually refer to.
> 
> Cheers - Louis MacNeice


Yebbut, Bailey is a full-blown cunt.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 3, 2022)

brogdale said:


> Yebbut, Bailey is a full-blown cunt.
> 
> View attachment 308590


We've seen a decade of wage rises so moderate people in the public sector - the people who do the work anyway - are on between 3/4 and 4/5 of what they were paid in real terms in 2008. And in a year it'll be 7/10-3/4


----------



## brogdale (Feb 3, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> We've seen a decade of wage rises so moderate people in the public sector - the people who do the work anyway - are on between 3/4 and 4/5 of what they were paid in real terms in 2008. And in a year it'll be 7/10-3/4


Exactly.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Feb 3, 2022)

brogdale said:


> Yebbut, Bailey is a full-blown cunt.
> 
> View attachment 308590


No argument with that!

Cheers  - Louis MacNeice


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 3, 2022)

bimble said:


> Stop it, it’s not personal it’s not about you he is just like that, life being short you may find it’s improved by putting him on ignore instead of demanding he do it for you.


I am not 'just like that' as you know from the range of constructive advice I've given you over the years.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 3, 2022)

Brexit hastens the dominance of Sinn Fein in the North of Ireland and pushes forward a United Ireland free from British imposed borders.  A good day. Northern Ireland first minister resigns over Brexit checks on goods


----------



## Ax^ (Feb 3, 2022)

should get a poll the same time as the scottish one ...


----------



## TopCat (Feb 3, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> should get a poll the same time as the scottish one ...


One is important the other a bit of a tantrum.


----------



## gosub (Feb 3, 2022)

TopCat said:


> One is important the other a bit of a tantrum.


One is included in the Good Friday Agreement the other already happened


----------



## MrSki (Feb 4, 2022)

Well this all came true didn't it?


----------



## two sheds (Feb 5, 2022)

ok that's it there really was no point to brexit now  









						French champagne makers say ‘non merci’ to UK government’s Brexit pint bottles
					

Government’s Brexit push to bring back Winston Churchill’s favourite champagne measure met with indifference




					www.independent.co.uk


----------



## Badgers (Feb 6, 2022)

‘Fundamentally Meaningless’ - The Government's Brexit Benefits Paper – Byline Times
					

Chris Grey looks at the untruths, half truths and vague aspirations of the 102 page report on the benefits of leaving the EU, and discovers a ministerial power grab and a glaring failure to account for any of the costs




					bylinetimes.com


----------



## contadino (Feb 6, 2022)

Pinter never created a comedy as dark as the Brexit party


----------



## Artaxerxes (Feb 7, 2022)




----------



## bimble (Feb 8, 2022)

The fake victorian nonsense-monger is in charge of maximising the benefits of brexit now, which makes perfect sense. Things are looking up.


----------



## Sprocket. (Feb 8, 2022)

‘Brexit opportunities, the ones that never knock’


----------



## eatmorecheese (Feb 8, 2022)

Minister for Patronising Plebs. Oh joy


----------



## eatmorecheese (Feb 8, 2022)

.


----------



## gosub (Feb 8, 2022)

bimble said:


> The fake victorian nonsense-monger is in charge of maximising the benefits of brexit now, which makes perfect sense. Things are looking up. View attachment 309259


Its not just Brexit Opportunites its Govenrmnet Efficiency as well.  Which is bad news for the cival service, as you say that man seems to have made one Queen last 250years


----------



## contadino (Feb 8, 2022)

gosub said:


> Its not just Brexit Opportunites its Govenrmnet Efficiency Department of Administrative Affairs as well.  Which is bad news for the cival service, as you say that man seems to have made one Queen last 250years


FIFY


----------



## gosub (Feb 8, 2022)

contadino said:


> FIFY
> View attachment 309276


That was a classy program, shame Thick of It turned out be an adequte reflection of where things have moved to


----------



## ska invita (Feb 9, 2022)

this has amused me
"Lorries arriving at the port [Dover] will have to travel 60 miles to Ebbsfleet, if their consignments need to be physically checked by customs officers. That increases the risk, the committee warns, that goods could be offloaded on the way."

-fullproof system 

from this:








						Warning over border delays when new checks kick in
					

A cross-party committee of MPs warns of further disruption later this year as new import controls start.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 9, 2022)

ska invita said:


> this has amused me
> "Lorries arriving at the port will have to travel 60 miles to Ebbsfleet, if their consignments need to be physically checked by customs officers. That increases the risk, the committee warns, that goods could be offloaded on the way."
> 
> -fullproof system
> ...


Full proof is what they were drinking when they came up with this drive to ebbsfleet nonsense


----------



## two sheds (Feb 9, 2022)

Rees-Mogg should be renamed Minister for Increased Costs, Paperwork and Border Delays


----------



## contadino (Feb 9, 2022)

two sheds said:


> Rees-Mogg should be renamed Minister for Increased Costs, Paperwork and Border Delays, Shortages, Bankrupted Fishermen, Offshored Jobs, Poorer Education, Reduced Scientific Funding, Shitty Waterways and Damage to The Arts.


FIFY. That's quite a portfolio. You reckon him and Steve Baker are having a pissing contest?


----------



## bimble (Feb 9, 2022)

It's kind of amazing that Lord Frost reckons it would be a good idea for this country to become  pretty much the only place on earth into which you can bring any food & animal products you like with no boring rules . Or maybe he doesn't really think that at all is just making some power play in their weird little political game idk.
(his idea is to not implement the next set of controls on imports this summer, the ones the UK has already deferred at least 3 times. Cos allowing EU to send us whatever they like whilst we have to keep to their standards for any exports is totally logical and a great plan obvs. I do think he might be quite mad this one.


----------



## Dogsauce (Feb 9, 2022)

Who the fuck does this Randist cunt think he’s speaking for when he says ‘We’? Whose philosophy?

I suspect quite a large proportion of leave voters do believe in protectionism, not having ‘our’ farmers undercut etc. Taking back control was the whole point, not abandoning all controls.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 9, 2022)

Dangerously and wilfully stupid.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Feb 9, 2022)

brogdale said:


> Dangerously and wilfully stupid.
> 
> View attachment 309394



So close to realising and so far.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 9, 2022)

brogdale said:


> Dangerously and wilfully stupid.
> 
> View attachment 309394


But it's a pity it's not true: a road traffic accident might have left a lorry from Belgium losing its load of red tape just outside the Maidstone services, resulting in great tailback


----------



## Artaxerxes (Feb 9, 2022)

“We left the Eu and now they want us to have border checks”

Well duh.


----------



## bimble (Feb 9, 2022)

brogdale said:


> Dangerously and wilfully stupid.
> 
> View attachment 309394


its consistent though, everything that's not going great is always someone else's fault, usually the EUs.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 9, 2022)

bimble said:


> its consistent though, everything that's not going great is always someone else's fault, usually the EUs.


It is the supra-state's fault for existing.


----------



## Yossarian (Feb 9, 2022)

Dogsauce said:


> Who the fuck does this Randist cunt think he’s speaking for when he says ‘We’? Whose philosophy?
> 
> I suspect quite a large proportion of leave voters do believe in protectionism, not having ‘our’ farmers undercut etc. Taking back control was the whole point, not abandoning all controls.



"Let's take back control so we can get rid of controls. While that might effectively cede control to other countries, at least we know that we control the level of control."


----------



## Chilli.s (Feb 9, 2022)

"Let's take back control"  lmao, people are so dum


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 9, 2022)

bimble said:


> its consistent though, everything that's not going great is always someone else's fault, usually the EUs.


we've had people called wreckers and enemies of the people in the not so distant past, perhaps johnson will take a lead from stalin's book and try a purge to fix the blame for everything on theresa may and jeremy corbyn etc before hoying them off to some labour camp in the cairngorms


----------



## not a trot (Feb 9, 2022)

brogdale said:


> Dangerously and wilfully stupid.
> 
> View attachment 309394



Yeah, if you drive down there you'll see the biggest roll of red ever made.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 10, 2022)

One less brand of olive oil.


----------



## bimble (Feb 10, 2022)

TopCat said:


> One less brand of olive oil.


Probably more likely to mean extra brands of olive oil, exclusively for the UK market, the kind they’d previously had to dispose of or use for industrial purposes only cos it didn’t meet anyones safety standards.
ETA Yep, we are now liberated from these rules about what kinds of thing can be sold to us as olive oil and which can’t so yeah it’s great cos there’ll probably be cheaper stuff available here that you couldn’t buy in any EU country 


			https://ec.europa.eu/info/sites/default/files/food-farming-fisheries/plants_and_plant_products/documents/factsheet-olive-oil_en.pdf


----------



## bimble (Feb 10, 2022)

Rees-Mogg, in his new role as Minister for Brexit Opportunities, needs your help (if you read the sun).


----------



## teqniq (Feb 10, 2022)

CWS:


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Feb 10, 2022)

bimble said:


> Rees-Mogg, in his new role as Minister for Brexit Opportunities, needs your help (if you read the sun).



Repeal the Outer Space Act 1986.


----------



## Yossarian (Feb 10, 2022)

bimble said:


> Rees-Mogg, in his new role as Minister for Brexit Opportunities, needs your help (if you read the sun). View attachment 309484



"That must be a Brexit bonus in your pocket because nobody has ever been pleased to see me."


----------



## bimble (Feb 10, 2022)

Full ridiculous thing below because even though it’s just a shit little ploy to try to keep sun readers onside it’s quite something, 2 years after Freedom Day.

Maybe leave voters on here could write to him let him know if you’re feeling shocked & disappointed that he’s not interpreting your vote quite how you meant it.


----------



## existentialist (Feb 10, 2022)

Surely they must be running out of dead cats by now?


----------



## gosub (Feb 10, 2022)

existentialist said:


> Surely they must be running out of dead cats by now?


At least NOW we don't have to worry about any EU dead cat legilation, UK is free to import and export dead cats from all over the world.


----------



## not a trot (Feb 10, 2022)

existentialist said:


> Surely they must be running out of dead cats by now?


One thing in Johnsons favour. No footage of him kicking a cat round the kitchen has emerged, yet.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 10, 2022)

not a trot said:


> One thing in Johnsons favour. No footage of him kicking a cat round the kitchen has emerged, yet.


You won't believe what's leaked next


----------



## Duncan2 (Feb 10, 2022)

Does it make any sense for HR Departments to be delivering diversity training these days?In the giant Distribution Centre where i work at the edge of a Midlands railway town there are a couple of Ghanaians and six native Britons.Everyone else speaks Polish.We could hardly be more diverse already?


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 10, 2022)

Duncan2 said:


> Does it make any sense for HR Departments to be delivering diversity training these days?In the giant Distribution Centre where i work at the edge of a Midlands railway town there are a couple of Ghanaians and six native Britons.Everyone else speaks Polish.We could hardly be more diverse already?


Probably , for the Poles .


----------



## Artaxerxes (Feb 11, 2022)




----------



## two sheds (Feb 11, 2022)

I liked Slim Pickens ("brother of Easy") he was great in Blazing Saddles and Dr. Strangelove.


----------



## andysays (Feb 11, 2022)

two sheds said:


> I liked Slim Pickens ("brother of Easy") he was great in Blazing Saddles and Dr. Strangelove.


----------



## two sheds (Feb 11, 2022)

That's the image that comes to mind


----------



## Yossarian (Feb 11, 2022)




----------



## gosub (Feb 11, 2022)

Yossarian said:


> View attachment 309634


That's not fair to the entire history of the Sun, it was a very different publication before Murdoch got hold of it.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 11, 2022)

Remainers should grasp the oppertunity the haunted pencil is offering, rather than moaning as per, write to clown with your lists of EU regulations you'd like ended:

Customs checks for travel of people and goods between the UK and EU.
The banning of UK students from the Erasmus scheme.
And so on.


----------



## Dogsauce (Feb 11, 2022)

I vote for an end to roaming charges.


----------



## Raheem (Feb 11, 2022)

4-day week
Shakin' Stevens back in the charts
Cancel Coronation Street


----------



## Dogsauce (Feb 11, 2022)

Cars to come equipped with 8-track cassette players again.

(think I filched that off the film Armageddon)


----------



## Dogsauce (Feb 11, 2022)

Christmas to be unbanned permanently.


----------



## Dogsauce (Feb 11, 2022)

Reinstate the ban on ‘Nuclear Power - No Thanks!’ stickers in any language other than English.


----------



## Dogsauce (Feb 11, 2022)

Get rid of the woke nonsense requirement for racists to say ‘I’m not racist but…’ before saying something racist. Think of the conversational efficiency in golf clubhouses across the land.


----------



## Dogsauce (Feb 11, 2022)

Service stations to be allowed to issue Smurf window stickers again when buying petrol.


----------



## Badgers (Feb 11, 2022)




----------



## Raheem (Feb 11, 2022)

Noticed that he mentions salmon at the end of that. Someone posted some data here the other day showing that salmon was the only exported product that had seen an increase since Brexit (for which, I'll bet there's a specific explanation anyway).


----------



## two sheds (Feb 11, 2022)

Scottish salmon farms also have disease problems for themselves and also wild salmon in the area as Private Eye has detailed over the years.


----------



## existentialist (Feb 12, 2022)

Badgers said:


>



Jesus fucking Christ, that was damning. He's useless


----------



## two sheds (Feb 12, 2022)

existentialist said:


> Jesus fucking Christ, that was damning. He's useless


hence his name


----------



## redsquirrel (Feb 12, 2022)

Artaxerxes said:


>



A piece of shit that worked for Clegg, helping to push people into poverty.


----------



## existentialist (Feb 12, 2022)

two sheds said:


> hence his name


No! Surely not...


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 12, 2022)

Dogsauce said:


> Service stations to be allowed to issue Smurf window stickers again when buying petrol.


Green shield stamps


----------



## philosophical (Feb 12, 2022)

There once was a daily tabloid cartoon called Useless Eustace.
You could buy tatty tear off the edges tickets with two letters inside, if they were the first and last letters of the Useless Eustace caption you won some money.


----------



## existentialist (Feb 12, 2022)

philosophical said:


> There once was a daily tabloid cartoon called Useless Eustace.
> You could buy tatty tear off the edges tickets with two letters inside, if they were the first and last letters of the Useless Eustace caption you won some money.


Perhaps they should bring it back.


----------



## Serge Forward (Feb 12, 2022)

Useless Eustace was in the Daily Mirror I think. They're missing a trick by not reviving it.


----------



## philosophical (Feb 12, 2022)

Artist Jack Greenall drew Useless Eustace.
This is an example of his work featuring Tory long grass:




This is an example of the lottery ticket associated:


----------



## MrSki (Feb 12, 2022)




----------



## Smangus (Feb 12, 2022)

Quite like this. 

Lies come in all shapes and sizes. This government is familiar with them all | Nick Cohen


----------



## Smangus (Feb 12, 2022)

And this.


----------



## Badgers (Feb 18, 2022)

Thank goodness an honest grafter has taken the lead on this.









						Jacob Rees-Mogg says little evidence Brexit hit trade
					

The Brexit benefits minister says Covid is behind trade falls, and Brexit is helping the economy.



					www.bbc.co.uk
				




He also said there is no 'cost of living crisis' so must have a strong grip on economics.


----------



## Dogsauce (Feb 18, 2022)

Badgers said:


> He also said there is no 'cost of living crisis' so must have a strong grip on economics.


There isn’t for him. Not like he’d know the price of a loaf of bread anyway.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Feb 18, 2022)

(Yes)


----------



## Ax^ (Feb 18, 2022)

tbf Ress Mogg the cunt moved all of his own business out of the uk in advance of leave date
for reasons unrelated to brexit apparently 

so not surprisingly he not been presonnaly affected


----------



## Badgers (Feb 20, 2022)

__





						How much longer do we have to pretend that Brexit might work? | Economics | The Guardian
					






					amp-theguardian-com.cdn.ampproject.org


----------



## Duncan2 (Feb 20, 2022)

Badgers said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Quotes Juvenal but entirely misunderstands the point of view of the truck-driver.🙄


----------



## TopCat (Feb 22, 2022)

Keegan just froths for the faithful.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 22, 2022)

TopCat said:


> Keegan just froths for the faithful.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Feb 23, 2022)




----------



## two sheds (Feb 23, 2022)

followed by the economic benefits of reintroducing pounds shilling and pence, followed by groats


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 23, 2022)

Artaxerxes said:


>



sure everyone would feel better if jrm was shorter by two or three hands


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Feb 23, 2022)

two sheds said:


> followed by the economic benefits of reintroducing pounds shilling and pence, followed by groats


Bring back Norman French!


----------



## eatmorecheese (Feb 23, 2022)

GCSE Maths question:

How many straws is it possible for JRM to clutch in order to justify the clusterfuck? Please give your answer in imperial measurements.


----------



## Chilli.s (Feb 23, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> sure everyone would feel better if jrm was shorter by two or three hands


Rather he was drawn to seven feet


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Feb 23, 2022)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> Bring back Norman French!



who was he?


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 23, 2022)

Chilli.s said:


> Rather he was drawn to seven feet


Like Charles Hawtrey in carry on henry


----------



## Chilli.s (Feb 23, 2022)

The haunted pencil will squeak and tell us all the brexit benefits


----------



## skyscraper101 (Feb 23, 2022)

This country never really went totally metric anyway. Pints, and miles never went away. Body measurements in feet and stone. TV's still described by screen size in inches. Etc.

It's just more nonsense to tart up their failed project with.


----------



## teqniq (Feb 23, 2022)

eatmorecheese said:


> GCSE Maths question:
> 
> How many straws is it possible for JRM to clutch in order to justify the clusterfuck? Please give your answer in imperial measurements.


A load of straw is 11 hundredweight 2 quarters 8lb. That's quite a bit of straw to clutch, mind.









						Forgotten British and Irish units
					

Magna Carta, signed on 15 June 1215, said, “Let there be one measure …”. This week, we illustrate the consequences of ignoring this principle by looking at some old measurement un…




					metricviews.uk


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 23, 2022)

teqniq said:


> A load of straw is 11 hundredweight 2 quarters 8lb. That's quite a bit of straw to clutch, mind.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Is it the same as a load of bollocks?


----------



## Chilli.s (Feb 23, 2022)

Doing percentages with all that old money and weights must be a bit of a work up


----------



## PR1Berske (Feb 23, 2022)

Chilli.s said:


> Doing percentages with all that old money and weights must be a bit of a work up


12 old pence in a shilling
20 shillings in a pound

So that's base 12, base 20, and base 10, just from the money.


----------



## two sheds (Feb 23, 2022)

ah but 12's divisible by 2, 3, 4 _and _6 - much superior to 10 which is only divisible by 2 and 5 

so how do you divide a decimal price exactly if you buy a pizza between three, four or six people eh? eh? it can't be done


----------



## PR1Berske (Feb 23, 2022)

two sheds said:


> ah but 12's divisible by 2, 3, 4 _and _6 - much superior to 10 which is only divisible by 2 and 5
> 
> so how do you divide a decimal price exactly if you buy a pizza between three, four or six people eh? eh? it can't be done


If anyone you know kicks up a fuss because they can't divide £12.99 between three of you, get new friends.


----------



## Badgers (Feb 24, 2022)

Might be useful quimcunx 









						London to Edinburgh train single £14.90 (£9.80 railcard) / London to Newcastle £11.90 (£7.85 railcard) - May / June dates @ Lumo | hotukdeals
					

Lumo have a number of cheap train tickets. The cheapest fares are journeys booked for May and June travel (other months are higher cost). There are a number of




					www.hotukdeals.com


----------



## two sheds (Feb 24, 2022)

PR1Berske said:


> If anyone you know kicks up a fuss because they can't divide £12.99 between three of you, get new friends.


Yeh but what if it costs £13.00? Your smug examples won't work then to eliminate the unfairness for 3, 4 or 6 people. But with £13/0/0 everyone will be laughing, right up to 120 people.


----------



## keybored (Feb 24, 2022)

two sheds said:


> so how do you divide a decimal price exactly if you buy a pizza between three, four or six people eh? eh? it can't be done


Just drive up inflation till pizzas and everything else cost 12 times as much.


----------



## two sheds (Feb 24, 2022)

Fucking Brexit again


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 24, 2022)

two sheds said:


> ah but 12's divisible by 2, 3, 4 _and _6 - much superior to 10 which is only divisible by 2 and 5
> 
> so how do you divide a decimal price exactly if you buy a pizza between three, four or six people eh? eh? it can't be done


You stop being so damn precious about a few pennies


----------



## two sheds (Feb 24, 2022)

yeh easy for you to say


----------



## bluescreen (Feb 24, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> You stop being so damn precious about a few pennies


Back in the 1970s my brother worked in a shop where things had odd prices because VAT had just gone up. A woman, a posh type, came to the counter with a fancy mug priced at £2.01. She didn't have the odd penny and said to him, 'Oh, it's only a penny, it doesn't amount to anything.' He spotted the coins she had and said 'You're right madam, it doesn't amount to anything so that will be £2.02.'


----------



## brogdale (Feb 24, 2022)

We may not have a good war.


----------



## philosophical (Feb 24, 2022)

I grew up and was schooled before metrication everywhere.
It was a question of number bases.
Ten is regarded as good because most of us have ten digits to count on.
However, especially with getting yer money right being a motivator, the imperial system led to larger numbers of people with arithmetical mental agility.
It seems that these days if you pay a pound for something costing 77 pence the change gets worked out by a machine, most people I knew growing up could do that and more in their head.
We could subtract £5 13s 7d from £9 10s 6d quite quickly in our heads, mental arithmetic was a thing. £3 16s 11d is the answer.
We would jump around number bases with tens, and threes using yards for example, feet and inches, eight pints to a gallon and ounces pounds and stones. Even now height is commonly described in feet and inches.
I suppose my point is that the commonplace use of different number bases was used and accepted.
In which sport might 10.4 plus 6.5 equal 17.3?


----------



## Badgers (Feb 24, 2022)

__





						Britons living in EU can’t keep pre-Brexit rights, European court advised | Brexit | The Guardian
					






					amp-theguardian-com.cdn.ampproject.org


----------



## Badgers (Mar 2, 2022)

Sinless upLaNdS


----------



## Badgers (Mar 3, 2022)

🤔


----------



## philosophical (Mar 3, 2022)

Evidence gathering?
How does that get paid for?
There is no evidence to gather, the voters voted that the UK leaves the EU and that hasn’t happened.
Whatever is called ‘Brexit’ so far, is not what was voted for.
People who voted leave voted to crash the Belfast/Good Friday agreement.


----------



## two sheds (Mar 4, 2022)

Brexiteer Tory MP says new paperwork for trading with EU is ‘monstrous’
					

Desmond Swayne calls for border to be made digital and ‘seamless’




					www.independent.co.uk


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Mar 5, 2022)

PR1Berske said:


> 12 old pence in a shilling
> 20 shillings in a pound
> 
> So that's base 12, base 20, and base 10, just from the money.


Don't forget 16 ounces to the pound, 14 pounds to the stone, 8 stones to the hundredweight and 20 hundredweight to the ton. We can move onto fluid and distance measures in a bit.

Cheers  - Louis MacNeice


----------



## teqniq (Mar 5, 2022)

There is some weird shit going on here:


----------



## teqniq (Mar 5, 2022)

Hahahaha looks to have been hacked:


----------



## brogdale (Mar 5, 2022)

teqniq said:


> Hahahaha looks to have been hacked:



Lot's of vermin going back and deleting their LML retweets...

Politwoops


----------



## teqniq (Mar 5, 2022)

brogdale said:


> Lot's of vermin going back and deleting their LML retweets...
> 
> Politwoops


The Leave means leave account owner deleted all of the previous tweets which means anyone retweeting will have lost those retweets too.


----------



## 2hats (Mar 5, 2022)

Totally unrelated?


----------



## Artaxerxes (Mar 6, 2022)

2hats said:


> Totally unrelated?




The lawyers do what the government lets them do so this shifting the blame onto them is pathetic.


----------



## Duncan2 (Mar 7, 2022)

Thread won't be the same without Badgers😞


----------



## Artaxerxes (Mar 7, 2022)

Duncan2 said:


> Thread won't be the same without Badgers😞



Who else will post random twitter links and like my posts?

He'll be missed.


----------



## brogdale (Mar 7, 2022)

Duncan2 said:


> Thread won't be the same without Badgers😞


Have I missed something?


----------



## Ax^ (Mar 7, 2022)

brogdale said:


> Have I missed something?



have a look in the community forum
it not happy news


----------



## brogdale (Mar 7, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> have a look in the community forum
> it not happy news


Oh, fuck.

Oh fuck...that's the shittiest news...sorry for being behind.
fuck.


----------



## Ax^ (Mar 7, 2022)

ah nothing to be sorry about 

just really shite news


----------



## brogdale (Mar 7, 2022)

and you're right; this thread (one of many, I suspect) won't be the same without him.


----------



## Maggot (Mar 9, 2022)

Aid to Ukraine being held up by Brexit red tape.









						Brexit red tape sees Ukraine aid supplies held for days at Dover
					

Charity bosses say post-Brexit customs red tape at Dover has held up the transportation of aid shipments to Ukraine.




					www.kentonline.co.uk


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 9, 2022)

Maggot said:


> Aid to Ukraine being held up by Brexit red tape.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What's more important, the EU's red tape or Ukraine?


----------



## Yossarian (Mar 9, 2022)

Netherlands, France, and UK have reportedly cut red tape, though Brexit-induced confusion is still apparently causing delays.









						UK and France cut red tape to get aid to Ukraine faster - The Loadstar
					

As the logistics sector steps up efforts to aid the crisis in Ukraine, the UK and France have removed border controls and sanitary checks on humanitarian relief to keep trucks moving. Aid shipments for NGOs assisting in humanitarian relief now need only be cleared under sealed conditions, but...




					theloadstar.com
				




The fact that Ukrainian refugees are being required to prove that they have numerous close relatives in the UK, declare that they're willing to pick berries, pay hundreds of pounds in application fees, and collect a visa from an office hundreds of miles away from where they applied for it, meanwhile, shows Brexit is working in the spirit in which it was intended.

(I may be exaggerating, but not all that much, unfortunately.)


----------



## Dogsauce (Mar 10, 2022)

2hats said:


> Totally unrelated?




Notable that he seems to have missed politicians off his little list there. Off the hook.


----------



## seeformiles (Mar 10, 2022)

Badgers said:


> 🤔




Having flown to Belfast Harbour airport often in a twin prop plane, can I recommend that anyone contemplating the same does not eat before flying. The landing is rough as old arseholes at the best of times and I’ve seen many an unwary traveller lose their breakfast in spectacular fashion 🤢


----------



## Boris Sprinkler (Mar 10, 2022)

I was just reading about this on reddit and came across this post.


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Mar 10, 2022)

Boris Sprinkler said:


> I was just reading about this on reddit and came across this post.



Yeah but Britain is now leading the way in bringing about the collapse of Capitalism with our world beating Socialist reforms so it was all worth it.


----------



## Boris Sprinkler (Mar 10, 2022)

Since capitalism eventually consumes itself you are half right.


----------



## bimble (Mar 15, 2022)

Man of the moment, talking here about how much he wanted brexit to happen but only because he cares a lot about democracy & the will of the people, which is nice.


----------



## brogdale (Mar 15, 2022)

bimble said:


> Man of the moment, talking here about how much he wanted brexit to happen but only because he cares a lot about democracy & the will of the people, which is nice.



The Наро́дная во́ля


----------



## contadino (Mar 15, 2022)

bimble said:


> Man of the moment, talking here about how much he wanted brexit to happen but only because he cares a lot about democracy & the will of the people, which is nice.



...but you get labelled a conspiraloon for airing an opinion (backed by a fair bit of circumstancial evidence) that with hindsight it's pretty obvious that Putin did whatever he could to enable Brexit, as he (is arguably the only person who) stood to gain from it.


----------



## Boris Sprinkler (Mar 15, 2022)

Brexit means Brexit is exactly what the Novichok was intended to signify. 

As in "we had an agreement. Now deliver Brexit"


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 15, 2022)

contadino said:


> ...but you get labelled a conspiraloon for airing an opinion (backed by a fair bit of circumstancial evidence) that with hindsight it's pretty obvious that Putin did whatever he could to enable Brexit, as he (is arguably the only person who) stood to gain from it.


So Putin enabled it all through his behind the scenes puppetry of the Tory party, Nigel farage and the right wing press. Now there's a ct


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 15, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> So Putin enabled it all through his behind the scenes puppetry of the Tory party, Nigel farage and the right wing press. Now there's a ct




Almost as batshit as...



Boris Sprinkler said:


> Brexit means Brexit is exactly what the Novichok was intended to signify.
> 
> As in "we had an agreement. Now deliver Brexit"


----------



## brogdale (Mar 15, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> So Putin enabled it all through his behind the scenes puppetry of the Tory party, Nigel farage and the right wing press. Now there's a ct


"Puppetry" does sound like ct, but the findings of the ISC's Russia report are not theoretical:



> UK spy agencies took their "eye off the ball" over Russian interference and the government "badly underestimated" the threat, a watchdog has said.
> 
> A long-awaited report from parliament's Intelligence and Security Committee (ISC) found Vladimir Putin's administration has been engaged in "hostile foreign interference".
> 
> *It criticised the "illogical" approach by MI5 not to fully investigate how much Moscow tried to influence the Brexit referendum because of an "extreme caution" of being seen to interfere in "democratic processes".*



Precluding investigation into Russian influence in the EU referendum is obviously fuel for conspiracy theorists, though. But you don't have to be a remoaniac ct loon to find that a little smelly.


----------



## bimble (Mar 15, 2022)

It's not even a question is it that Putin wanted Brexit to happen, he most definitely did. If despite all the evidence you still feel the need to imagine that the Russian state wasn't instructed to try to help that come about, or that the Tory party and Vote Leave were too noble to be seduced by any such efforts, that's just really quite bizarre. Just cos you wanted brexit doesn't mean you have to try deny any of the above, its kind of ridiculous.


----------



## brogdale (Mar 15, 2022)

bimble said:


> It's not even a question is it that Putin wanted Brexit to happen, he most definitely did. If despite all the evidence you still feel the need to imagine that the Russian state wasn't instructed to try to help that come about, or that the Tory party and Vote Leave were too noble to be seduced by any such efforts, that's just really quite bizarre. Just cos you wanted brexit doesn't mean you have to try deny any of the above, its kind of ridiculous.


I (think) I know that last sentence is not addressed to me, but just to be clear (again) I chose not to engage with the Tory referendum in 2016.


----------



## bimble (Mar 15, 2022)

I should have used ‘one’ instead of ‘you’ but it never occurs to me to do so.


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 15, 2022)

Another example of outside influence , this time in our elections


----------



## teqniq (Mar 15, 2022)

Well there's a thing:


----------



## teqniq (Mar 15, 2022)

Banks got mentioned twice in Westminster today:


----------



## brogdale (Mar 15, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Another example of outside influence , this time in our elections
> 
> View attachment 314517


Influencing the crucial development of 12 to 11 seats! 🤣


----------



## steeplejack (Mar 15, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Another example of outside influence , this time in our elections
> 
> View attachment 314517



Sir Vince looks as though he's lost control of his bowels but realises- tragically- that he has to hold on for a few more seconds for the photo.


----------



## existentialist (Mar 15, 2022)

bimble said:


> Man of the moment, talking here about how much he wanted brexit to happen but only because he cares a lot about democracy & the will of the people, which is nice.



I've always had an uneasy feeling about the way the whole Brexit thing went...it seemed a lot more fucked-up than even our pretty seriously fucked-up system generally manages to be. I've always wondered just how Machiavellian ex-chekist Putin might be, and it struck me early on that, if nothing else, Russia's interests might well be nicely served by a rift between the UK and Europe: it's that _maskirovka _thing, just applied to geopolitics.

I even wonder about the timing of this Ukraine thing. Did Putin think that the EU was at peak flakiness, and that the somewhat vague Biden was unlikely to want to take a position, so he thought he'd go for the land grab? I'm reminded that Putin was in all likelihood quite closely involved as a KGB officer with the Baader-Meinhof gang back in the 1970s, so he's got form for cosying up to dubious parties in the name of achieving a greater good.

I'm drawing no conclusions, but let's just say that I'd be mildly unsurprised if it were to emerge that he had materially interfered in all kinds of things, including the Brexit referendum (and what led up to it). Not to mention the influence he's had over the media, either via ownership or gullibility.


----------



## contadino (Mar 15, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> So Putin enabled it all through his behind the scenes puppetry of the Tory party, Nigel farage and the right wing press. Now there's a ct


I didn't claim he did it all. I said he did whatever he could. Poor English comprehension showing...

It took a lot of fucking thick and selfish twats to enable Brexit, and only a handful of them got paid for it.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 15, 2022)

contadino said:


> I didn't claim he did it all. I said he did whatever he could. Poor English comprehension showing...
> 
> It took a lot of fucking thick and selfish twats to enable Brexit, and only a handful of them got paid for it.


My slight exaggeration pales into insignificance beside the stupidity and shitty superiority of your post.


----------



## teqniq (Mar 15, 2022)

Banks having a hissy fit about parliamentary privilege and quoting frogface. Two arseholes for the price of one:


----------



## contadino (Mar 15, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> My slight exaggeration pales into insignificance beside the stupidity and shitty superiority of your post.


Oh I understand now. You don't know the difference between exaggeration and being wrong. That explains a lot.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 15, 2022)

contadino said:


> Oh I understand now. You don't know the difference between exaggeration and being wrong. That explains a lot.


Yes, I was exaggerating and you are wrong.


----------



## Boris Sprinkler (Mar 15, 2022)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Almost as batshit as...


so batshit insane they had to hold an inquiry about whether or not there had been russian interference in the election.


----------



## brogdale (Mar 15, 2022)

contadino said:


> It took a lot of fucking thick and selfish twats to enable Brexit...


That's my old Mum & Dad told.


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 15, 2022)

brogdale said:


> That's my old Mum & Dad told.


Can't beat a detailed and perceptive analysis on why people voted to leave


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 15, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Can't beat a detailed and perceptive analysis on why people voted to leave


Sure he'll double down on it


----------



## philosophical (Mar 16, 2022)

Oakshott is bonking that bastard Tice, so she is trying to get at Banks to take attention away from her shagmate.


----------



## MrSki (Mar 16, 2022)

A good article worth a read.



> Byrne’s colleague Labour MP Ben Bradshaw was among the first British politicians to raise questions about possible Russian interference in the UK’s democratic processes.
> 
> “I was the first MP, in December 2016, to raise in Parliament the issue of possible criminal interference in the Brexit referendum”, Bradshaw tells _Byline Times._












						The Lone Voices Who Tried to Warn the British Establishment About Russia – Byline Times
					

A small band of politicians spent the past decade warning about the threat from Putin and Russian oligarchs in the UK but are only now being listened to, reports Adam Bienkov




					bylinetimes.com


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 16, 2022)




----------



## AmateurAgitator (Mar 16, 2022)

The39thStep said:


>



Another low life who abstained on the welfare reform bill in 2015.


----------



## gosub (Mar 16, 2022)

Never really forgot his y front dating pic if I'm honest


----------



## Maggot (Mar 18, 2022)

The P&O sackings wouldn't have been allowed under EU law. Another victory for the workers Smokeandsteam


----------



## Artaxerxes (Mar 18, 2022)

Maggot said:


> The P&O sackings wouldn't have been allowed under EU law. Another victory for the workers Smokeandsteam



I don't think they are even allowed under UK law.

Usually you need at least a month or two of meaningless HR work and forms before it happens


----------



## brogdale (Mar 18, 2022)

At the one public meeting about the the referendum that 
I went to,( Ruskin House), it was a representative of the RMT that argued for the leave position.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Mar 18, 2022)

Maggot said:


> The P&O sackings wouldn't have been allowed under EU law. Another victory for the workers Smokeandsteam


Glad you’ve raised this as one of your number raised the same issue on the P&O thread and then vanished. So, I’ll ask you what I asked him. What relevant laws existed in Britain before Brexit that do not now? When were these laws ‘deregulated’? How would they have prevented what P&O have done? What EU law are you referring to specifically?

Also, what P&O have done is - in my view - unlawful. Reading the guardian this morning it seems lawyers agree that the dismissals are likely to be automatically unfair, that the failure to consult was illegal as was the failure to notify the Government.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Mar 18, 2022)

It’s not often I agree with Aaron Bastani but he’s half right here. Where I disagree with him is his suggestion that those engaged in these practices- gleefully commentating on people losing their jobs and lying as to the reasons why they are - could be part of any movement of progressive politics…


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 18, 2022)

Maggot said:


> The P&O sackings wouldn't have been allowed under EU law. Another victory for the workers Smokeandsteam




That’s a great point apart from it being total bollocks.


----------



## bimble (Mar 18, 2022)

This is just really shit. French newspaper says the owners are going to replace the British staff with workers they’re bringing in from Columbia . Why haven’t they sacked the French staff as well?


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 18, 2022)

bimble said:


> This is just really shit. French newspaper says the owners are going to replace the British staff with workers they’re bringing in from Columbia . Why haven’t they sacked the French staff as well?


EU or French legislation no doubt which I believe has been covered on the p&o thread


----------



## NoXion (Mar 18, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> It’s not often I agree with Aaron Bastani but he’s half right here. Where I disagree with him is his suggestion that those engaged in these practices- gleefully commentating on people losing their jobs and lying as to the reasons why they are - could be part of any movement of progressive politics…




I bet the effects of the war in Ukraine, whenever they become more readily apparent, will also get blamed on Brexit by these kinds of shitehawks. They seem to have no politics outside of that.


----------



## bimble (Mar 18, 2022)

I’m not aware of employment law having changed yet post Brexit. That’s why I don’t understand how come the British staff are sacked but not the French.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 18, 2022)

It was always legal under British law to do this, even when we were in the saintly EU.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 18, 2022)

bimble said:


> I’m not aware of employment law having changed yet post Brexit. That’s why I don’t understand how come the British staff are sacked but not the French.


Try the p&o thread which i expect answers the question


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Mar 18, 2022)

NoXion said:


> I bet the effects of the war in Ukraine, whenever they become more readily apparent, will also get blamed on Brexit by these kinds of shitehawks. They seem to have no politics outside of that.



Their politics are shameful. No solidarity with the sacked workers, peddling the lie that some unidentified and now mysteriously repealed EU law would have prevented this, wilfully ignoring 40 plus years of history since Thatchers anti-TU laws. As I said on here during the debate about labour shortages their politics are leading in one direction: against the working class


----------



## andysays (Mar 18, 2022)

bimble said:


> I’m not aware of employment law having changed yet post Brexit. That’s why I don’t understand how come the British staff are sacked but not the French.



Maybe they just haven't got round to sacking the French staff yet, or maybe they think that it would be politically and economically less easy to get away with it in France (which has nothing to do with Brexit).

Either way, the way a few posters here have jumped on this with such glee is instructive

(not aimed at you bimble)


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 18, 2022)

andysays said:


> Maybe they just haven't got round to sacking the French staff yet, or maybe they think that it would be politically and economically less easy to get away with it in France (which has nothing to do with Brexit).
> 
> Either way, the way a few posters here have jumped on this with such glee is instructive
> 
> (not aimed at you bimble)


Def politically more difficult in France because here everyone knows it'll be froth for two weeks if that then complaisance from our nefandous government


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 18, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> Try the p&o thread which i expect answers the question




This is how they’ll get away with it:

Not changing the job description one jot but taking on agency staff to do the redundant jobs is allowed, under U.K. law approved by the EU.


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 18, 2022)

Maggot said:


> The P&O sackings wouldn't have been allowed under EU law. Another victory for the workers Smokeandsteam




" I have heard there is a tree at the end of the world with a fleece of gold hanging from its branches
I have heard this too
So have many men
They say it is a gift of the gods "


----------



## Yossarian (Mar 18, 2022)

I agree with this writer that it's time to bring in labour laws that will do what a lot of people thought Brexit was going to do.

_Leaving the European Union, Brexiteers on both the right and left argued, would mean an end to importing low-cost European labour that “undercut” British workers. But the P&O mass lay-off exposes this argument as a red herring. The problem was not freedom of movement, but a loosely regulated labour market and poorly enforced labour laws, particularly relating to agency work and bogus self-employment._









						P&O proves Brexit has failed on its own terms
					

800 crew members have been replaced by “cheap agency workers from eastern Europe” overnight.




					www.newstatesman.com


----------



## Maggot (Mar 18, 2022)




----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 18, 2022)

Maggot said:


>





Go on then, which part of the PSR would have stopped P&O from doing what they have done? The vague bit about employee rights? That refers to ensuring they have the same rights as other employees in the country, i.e. none in this situation in the UK. So what part are your referring to?


----------



## Raheem (Mar 18, 2022)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Go on then, which part of the PSR would have stopped P&O from doing what they have done? The vague bit about employee rights? That refers to ensuring they have the same rights as other employees in the country, i.e. none in this situation in the UK. So what part are your referring to?


AFAICT, assuming P&O's actions were unlawful on the face of it, then the regs would, in theory, have obliged UK port authorities to get involved, and they would have had the power to sanction. How that would have gone in practice idk, but it looks as if it means there was one less potential consequence to targeting the UK workers as opposed to the French ones.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 18, 2022)

Raheem said:


> AFAICT, assuming P&O's actions were unlawful on the face of it, then the regs would, in theory, have obliged UK port authorities to get involved, and they would have had the power to sanction. How that would have gone in practice idk, but it looks as if it means there was one less potential consequence to targeting the UK workers as opposed to the French ones.




As I have posted on this thread and the P&O one, the main reason they can do this in the UK and you can't in France (or Holland and Ireland) is that when companies in the UK make staff redundant they can take on agency staff to do the supposedly redundant job immediately. That glaring piss-take has been allowed in the UK forever, in France that's a big NON.


----------



## Raheem (Mar 18, 2022)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> As I have posted on this thread and the P&O one, the main reason they can do this in the UK and you can't in France (or Holland and Ireland) is that when companies in the UK make staff redundant they can take on agency staff to do the supposedly redundant job immediately. That glaring piss-take has been allowed in the UK forever, in France that's a big NON.


Sure, but it's possible that both things might be true, isn't it?


----------



## Chz (Mar 18, 2022)

It's certainly the case that history would tell them - irrespective of what regulations do and don't apply - that the UK government is the most likely one to roll over and take it with little more than a "How rude! Harumph!" I mean, they did comprehensively vote _against_ banning this sort of thing just last year.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 18, 2022)

Raheem said:


> Sure, but it's possible that both things might be true, isn't it?



Sure, but with most UK ports being privately owned I would imagine you'd be hard pressed to find the fucks they give.


----------



## Raheem (Mar 18, 2022)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Sure, but with most UK ports being privately owned I would imagine you'd be hard pressed to find the fucks they give.


Maybe, maybe not. I have zero experience in negotiating with a UK port authority.

I do think though that "UK port authorities can't touch us now" is unlikely to have been an irrelevant factor for P&O, even if it  wasn't the only or main one.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Mar 19, 2022)

Raheem said:


> Maybe, maybe not. I have zero experience in negotiating with a UK port authority.
> 
> I do think though that "UK port authorities can't touch us now" is unlikely to have been an irrelevant factor for P&O, even if it  wasn't the only or main one.


P&O's decision is not result of Brexit. It does not need Brexit. It is not even made easier by Brexit. It was easy for P&O to do. And it was easy to do because it is a result of over 40 years of consistent anti-working class and anti-trade union activity (legal, economic, social and cultural).

The failures to defend working class interests, failures from within the class and the trade unions, and their supposed and potential allies, are why the 800 jobs can be binned with apparent impunity.

To be clear I say this as someone who voted for Brexit but regrets doing so as I massively  misjudged the strength of the forces which could take advantage of a  vote to leave.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## gosub (Mar 19, 2022)

I don't think P&O will come back from this. And I mean all of P&O given the price of cruises and the nightmares at the beginning of Covid. ..fuck potentially being trapped on a ship being 'looked after' by a load of Columbine earning £2.60 an hour.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 19, 2022)

gosub said:


> I don't think P&O will come back from this. And I mean all of P&O given the price of cruises and the nightmares at the beginning of Covid. ..fuck potentially being trapped on a ship being 'looked after' by a load of Columbine earning £2.60 an hour.


sailing for columbine could be a sequel to michael moore's film


----------



## gosub (Mar 19, 2022)

Ducking auto correct


----------



## Chilli.s (Mar 19, 2022)

Stuff in the press about a hole in the pension fund too


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 19, 2022)

Chilli.s said:


> Stuff in the press about a hole in the pension fund too




Quelle fucking surprise.


----------



## contadino (Mar 19, 2022)

Are the P&O Ferries mass sackings a result of Brexit?
					

Analysis: UK government claimed EU exit would let it change employment law, but it has not yet done so




					www.theguardian.com
				




Tldr, Brexit didn't enable. It was always possible.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 19, 2022)

contadino said:


> Are the P&O Ferries mass sackings a result of Brexit?
> 
> 
> Analysis: UK government claimed EU exit would let it change employment law, but it has not yet done so
> ...


Glad you've caught up with yesterday


----------



## Yossarian (Mar 19, 2022)

What a colossal cunt.

_With Ukraine's ambassador to Britain present, Johnson told a Conservative Party conference it was the instinct of British people, like Ukrainians, to choose freedom every time.

"I can give you a couple of famous recent examples. When the British people voted for Brexit, in such large, large numbers, I don't believe it was because they were remotely hostile to foreigners. It's because they wanted to be free to do things differently and for this country to be able to run itself," Johnson said._









						Brexit shows Britons love freedom in same way as Ukrainians, Johnson says
					

Prime Minister Boris Johnson said on Saturday that Brexit showed British people loved freedom in the same way as Ukrainians fighting Russia's invasion, comments that were branded tasteless by opposition lawmakers and commentators.




					www.reuters.com


----------



## philosophical (Mar 19, 2022)

Louis MacNeice said:


> P&O's decision is not result of Brexit. It does not need Brexit. It is not even made easier by Brexit. It was easy for P&O to do. And it was easy to do because it is a result of over 40 years of consistent anti-working class and anti-trade union activity (legal, economic, social and cultural).
> 
> The failures to defend working class interests, failures from within the class and the trade unions, and their supposed and potential allies, are why the 800 jobs can be binned with apparent impunity.
> 
> ...


Did you have a plan for the UK/EU land border at the time you voted leave?


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Mar 19, 2022)

philosophical said:


> Did you have a plan for the UK/EU land border at the time you voted leave?


Yes because I am in charge of everything. 

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## philosophical (Mar 19, 2022)

Louis MacNeice said:


> Yes because I am in charge of everything.
> 
> Cheers - Louis MacNeice



What plan did you have in mind when you took back control with your vote?
Could it be that you didn't give the UK/EU land border a second thought when voting leave?


----------



## Artaxerxes (Mar 19, 2022)

Yossarian said:


> What a colossal cunt.
> 
> _With Ukraine's ambassador to Britain present, Johnson told a Conservative Party conference it was the instinct of British people, like Ukrainians, to choose freedom every time.
> 
> ...




"Your so vain, I bet you think this war is about you"


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 19, 2022)

Artaxerxes said:


> "Your so vain, I bet you think this war is about you"


Contender for post of the thread


----------



## brogdale (Mar 19, 2022)

Yossarian said:


> What a colossal cunt.
> 
> _With Ukraine's ambassador to Britain present, Johnson told a Conservative Party conference it was the instinct of British people, like Ukrainians, to choose freedom every time.
> 
> ...


Making Barwell look like the clever, decent voice of reason kind of demonstrates the depths of cuntitude being plumbed here...


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 19, 2022)

brogdale said:


> Making Barwell look like the clever, decent voice of reason kind of demonstrates the depths of cuntitude being plumbed here...
> 
> View attachment 315046


And the way we know that there were foreign interests influencing the result


----------



## Artaxerxes (Mar 25, 2022)




----------



## Chilli.s (Mar 26, 2022)

14% fall verses 8% rise

well who could have seen that coming


----------



## brogdale (Mar 26, 2022)

A graph from the FT illustrating the point:


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 26, 2022)

brogdale said:


> A graph from the FT illustrating the point:
> 
> View attachment 315920


They'll regret not charging the Ukrainians for the anti-tank missiles


----------



## Ranbay (Apr 3, 2022)




----------



## teuchter (Apr 3, 2022)

Over 60% of UK citizens have shoes?


----------



## Ax^ (Apr 4, 2022)

of course the EU ban on union jack dress brought in because the ginger spice incident I remember it well


----------



## Artaxerxes (Apr 11, 2022)




----------



## editor (Apr 12, 2022)




----------



## editor (Apr 14, 2022)

Thanks to Brexit asylum seekers can now be shunted off to Rwanda. Another great win!





__





						archive.ph
					





					archive.ph
				






> Mr Johnson added: 'The British people voted several times to control our borders – not to close them, but to control them.
> 
> 'So just as Brexit allowed us to take back control of legal immigration by replacing free movement with our points-based system, we are also taking back control of illegal immigration with a long-term plan for asylum in this country.
> 
> 'It is a plan that will ensure the UK has a world-leading asylum offer, providing generous protection to those directly fleeing the worst of humanity, by settling thousands of people every year through safe and legal routes.'



(From Daily Mail)


----------



## Ax^ (Apr 14, 2022)

ah it will get stopped by the courts and then they will blame the EU for not being able to throw people off to a country

that even the UK was asking for investigations into their human right records as late as last year

anything to distract from breaking lockdown rules the bastards


----------



## two sheds (Apr 14, 2022)

courts may stop it but legislation planned to reverse such woke judgements?


----------



## Smangus (Apr 14, 2022)

Comes to something when your hopes rest on the upper  chamber. Never seen a gvt flail around slinging shit every  which way so much as this one. What majority?


----------



## The39thStep (Apr 14, 2022)

Utterly appalling , inhumane and bonkers idea 









						Blunkett backed on asylum centres
					

A leading leftwing thinktank has come out in support of David Blunkett's plan to send all asylum seekers to processing centres outside the EU.




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Ax^ (Apr 14, 2022)

how long did it take you to find that link from 2003


----------



## The39thStep (Apr 14, 2022)

Apparently, Blunket's original idea ( actually it was a Demos publication) was that every asylum seeker arriving in Britain should be sent back to the processing centre in Russia or Albania. 









						UN puts forward 'fairer' alternative to Blunkett's asylum processing plan
					

The United Nations has tabled an alternative plan for dealing with asylum seekers coming to Britain amid fears that David Blunkett's scheme for an offshore processing centre outside Europe will be seen as dumping refugees on poorer countries.




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Ax^ (Apr 14, 2022)

ok so he suggested it the UN and Europe, well fella in Germany was against the idea

and some wanky think tank thought it sounded fun as long as the EU brought it across the board

fair do's for the history lesson


----------



## The39thStep (Apr 14, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> ok so he suggested it the UN and Europe, well fella in Germany was against the idea
> 
> and some wanky think tank thought it sounded fun as long as the EU brought it across the board
> 
> fair do's for the history lesson


No problem kid


----------



## Ax^ (Apr 14, 2022)

which demos mind was it the UK or us one

demos UK is more wanky centralist


----------



## brogdale (Apr 14, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Utterly appalling , inhumane and bonkers idea
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Was then; is now.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 14, 2022)

brogdale said:


> Was then; is now.


On the other hand it makes it ever easier to argue for relocating the former people to the Falklands, South Georgia and the British Antarctic Territory. Falkland sound will yet be drained


----------



## Ax^ (Apr 14, 2022)

in Blunkett case at least he was not backing the idea to save his own political skin after lying to pariliment and the country repeatly


----------



## The39thStep (Apr 14, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> which demos mind was it the UK or us one
> 
> demos UK is more wanky centralist


It was the UK one

http://www.demos.co.uk/files/peopleflow.pdf?1240939425


----------



## brogdale (Apr 14, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> On the other hand it makes it ever easier to argue for relocating the former people to the Falklands, South Georgia and the British Antarctic Territory. Falkland sound will yet be drained


I'd have no objection to those seeking refuge from the wrath of the people being given asylum amongst the Spheniscidae.


----------



## The39thStep (Apr 14, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> in Blunkett case at least he was not backing the idea to save his own political skin after lying to pariliment and the country repeatly


May well have been his motive, who knows? However, the idea was first mooted in a policy document, the previous year,  after Blair called for 'fresh' ideas on how to reduce the numbers of asylum seekers. I think it was then that  Demos worked it up into a fully blown thing and the idea got as far as being considered by the European Commission until the UN paper won the day and Blunket withdrew his support from the proposal.


----------



## bluescreen (Apr 14, 2022)

In Blunkett's case, at least he wasn't deporting them to Rwanda and leaving them there. He was talking of having the applications processed so they could come to UK if successful. Patel is just proposing to dump them in Rwanda and if successful they get to stay in Rwanda, if not they have to leave and go... god knows where.



> Home Office insiders confirmed the plan was to give detainees a “one-way ticket” to the country and “encourage” them to establish new lives there.











						Tens of thousands of asylum seekers could be sent to Rwanda, says Johnson
					

PM insists east African country is safe and scheme will prove ‘very considerable deterrent’




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## 8ball (Apr 14, 2022)

bluescreen said:


> In Blunkett's case, at least he wasn't deporting them to Rwanda and leaving them there. He was talking of having the applications processed so they could come to UK if successful. Patel is just proposing to dump them in Rwanda and if successful they get to stay in Rwanda, if not they have to leave and go... god knows where.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## ska invita (Apr 14, 2022)

bluescreen said:


> Patel is just proposing to dump them in Rwanda and if successful they get to stay in Rwanda, if not they have to leave and go... god knows where.


jesus i didnt know that - that must be illegal surely


----------



## bluescreen (Apr 14, 2022)

ska invita said:


> jesus i didnt know that - that must be illegal surely


It's unbelievable. They can't get away with it. 

I am so angry about this.....


----------



## brogdale (Apr 14, 2022)

ska invita said:


> jesus i didnt know that - that must be illegal surely


Probably...according to those that actually know how these things work...


----------



## Ax^ (Apr 14, 2022)

just a puff piece to get his wrong doing out of the papers for 24 hours


----------



## existentialist (Apr 14, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> just a puff piece to get his wrong doing out of the papers for 24 hours


Until the next FPN, anyway. He'll be hoping for some huge atrocity in Ukraine to help deal with that one. And the next...


----------



## The39thStep (Apr 14, 2022)

bluescreen said:


> In Blunkett's case, at least he wasn't deporting them to Rwanda and leaving them there. He was talking of having the applications processed so they could come to UK if successful. Patel is just proposing to dump them in Rwanda and if successful they get to stay in Rwanda, if not they have to leave and go... god knows where.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sure but both schemes started with the premise that numbers of asylum seekers were too high, that too many were bogus, and that they should be dealt with at an arms length in a processing centre that was not in the UK. ie the idea was to deter the flow and reduce numbers 

The proposal of Russia being a likely site should be viewed in the context of the fact that  the Blair and Blunket Labour Party were backing the Russians at the time.









						When Tony Blair backed Putin’s brutal war
					

Tony Blair and Vladimir Putin struck up an extraordinary bond in the early 2000s as Russia engaged in a destructive military campaign in Chechnya that was similar to its war on Ukraine.




					declassifieduk.org


----------



## nogojones (Apr 14, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> how long did it take you to find that link from 2003


Maybe some of just remember what a cunt Blunket and Labour really were


----------



## teqniq (Apr 14, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Utterly appalling , inhumane and bonkers idea
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Everyone and their dog knows that Blunkett is a complete cunt but this isn't a competition. If it was though the current crop would win by a country mile.


----------



## bluescreen (Apr 14, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Sure but both schemes started with the premise that numbers of asylum seekers were too high, that too many were bogus, and that they should be dealt with at an arms length in a processing centre that was not in the UK. ie the idea was to deter the flow and reduce numbers
> 
> The proposal of Russia being a likely site should be viewed in the context of the fact that  the Blair and Blunket Labour Party were backing the Russians at the time.
> 
> ...


Sure, I wasn't remotely defending Blunkett but saying that Patel is even worse, in a way scarcely imaginable.


----------



## Ax^ (Apr 14, 2022)

.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Apr 14, 2022)

Grim.


----------



## Ax^ (Apr 14, 2022)

exporting deaths in immigration centers to Rawanda to cover her tracks


----------



## brogdale (Apr 14, 2022)

people trafficking criminal gang


----------



## Ax^ (Apr 18, 2022)

well well

40,000 jobs at risk as foreign pupils shun UK language schools


----------



## ska invita (Apr 19, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> well well
> 
> 40,000 jobs at risk as foreign pupils shun UK language schools



There was no reason to ditch identity cards as a valid travel document .., another weird seemingly emotional, maybe class based?, Anti foreigner ruling


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Apr 19, 2022)

ska invita said:


> There was no reason to ditch identity cards as a valid travel document .., another weird seemingly emotional, maybe class based?, Anti foreigner ruling




No, Turkey allows entry with EU ID cards.

But that article is pure Guardian; “we’ve not had any tour groups since March 2020” they bleat…


----------



## philosophical (Apr 19, 2022)

There were arrests of Republicans under terrorism laws yesterday in Derry.
It looks as if evidence suggests a continual creeping increase in division and incidents in Northern Ireland, with the sea border providing a pivot for trouble in these times, a sea border created because of the people who voted leave.
The posters on here who pretend their referendum vote was actually a vote for Sinn Fein, as their main intention voting leave was to bring about a United Ireland, are to my mind disingenuous liars trying to retrofit a justification for their deliberately malicious vote.
Leave has not happened but trouble has increased.
Presumably leave voters are proud of that, as they declare they would vote leave again.


----------



## The39thStep (Apr 19, 2022)

ska invita said:


> There was no reason to ditch identity cards as a valid travel document .., another weird seemingly emotional, maybe class based?, Anti foreigner ruling


Absolutely, when we were in the EU I always thought we should have them in the UK. Social security number, health number and tax number all on one little plastic card,at a fraction of the cost of a passport.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Apr 19, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Absolutely, when we were in the EU I always thought we should have them in the UK. Social security number, health number and tax number all on one little plastic card,at a fraction of the cost of a passport.




Again Blair & Blunkett buggered it up as they wanted a load more info on the cards and the right to flog that info to the highest bidder, so there was rightly outrage and it never happened.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Apr 19, 2022)

philosophical said:


> There were arrests of Republicans under terrorism laws yesterday in Derry.
> It looks as if evidence suggests a continual creeping increase in division and incidents in Northern Ireland, with the sea border providing a pivot for trouble in these times, a sea border created because of the people who voted leave.
> The posters on here who pretend their referendum vote was actually a vote for Sinn Fein, as their main intention voting leave was to bring about a United Ireland, are to my mind disingenuous liars trying to retrofit a justification for their deliberately malicious vote.
> Leave has not happened but trouble has increased.
> Presumably leave voters are proud of that, as they declare they would vote leave again.




Yeah, they stopped the annual Easter Rising riot and replaced it with a border-in-the-Irish-Sea riot.


----------



## philosophical (Apr 19, 2022)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Yeah, they stopped the annual Easter Rising riot and replaced it with a border-in-the-Irish-Sea riot.



Whatever title you want to give it, it was trouble.
The present nascent troubles have been exacerbated by the vote to leave in my view.
I really don’t care how much you wish to sneer at my perspective, nor how fed up at how many times I repeat myself, all that does is to play the man not the ball to cover or distract from the disaster of the vote to leave.
Brandon Lewis, the Northern Ireland minister this morning said Johnson had ‘got Brexit done’ FFS, yet he is the minister for one of the most impacted areas where ‘leave’ has not happened.


----------



## gosub (Apr 19, 2022)

two sheds said:


> courts may stop it but legislation planned to reverse such woke judgements?


Odd one . Was never a big one on freedom 9f movement side of things so don't know migration routes ....but having a processing point sub Sahara that can be accessed locally seems sensible to me.

As to the 0eople sent there from UK ..does have an out of sight out of mind danger to it  wit regards to quality of life and accommodation issues. And such is the state of world, I 'know' I'm going to be shocked and appalled by the reality of it at some point in the future. But it bus some breathing room for the overstreched and deliapidated systems within the UK.You'd hope the window b4 it's all deemed unlawful is not squandered and repairs carried out


----------



## gosub (Apr 19, 2022)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Yeah, they stopped the annual Easter Rising riot and replaced it with a border-in-the-Irish-Sea riot.


You mean the Welsh Channel?


----------



## flypanam (Apr 19, 2022)

philosophical said:


> There were arrests of Republicans under terrorism laws yesterday in Derry.
> It looks as if evidence suggests a continual creeping increase in division and incidents in Northern Ireland, with the sea border providing a pivot for trouble in these times, a sea border created because of the people who voted leave.
> The posters on here who pretend their referendum vote was actually a vote for Sinn Fein, as their main intention voting leave was to bring about a United Ireland, are to my mind disingenuous liars trying to retrofit a justification for their deliberately malicious vote.
> Leave has not happened but trouble has increased.
> Presumably leave voters are proud of that, as they declare they would vote leave again.


In fairness division in the north has accelerated since the signing of the GFA and it’s parity of esteem selling point has meant that people self identify as nationalist/unionist/other, with other been next to useless as their not counted. 

That the loyalists haven’t been able to mobilise huge numbers, might suggest that for a majority of unionists are happy enough with the current arrangement. I suppose the elections will give a picture of where unionism stands but it won’t be cleat after the votes are counted.


----------



## 8ball (Apr 19, 2022)

gosub said:


> You mean the Welsh Channel?



What, S4C?


----------



## gosub (Apr 19, 2022)

8ball said:


> What, S4C?


no, the wet bit to the west of Wales


----------



## 8ball (Apr 19, 2022)

gosub said:


> no, the wet bit to the west of Wales



You mean Wales?


----------



## gosub (Apr 19, 2022)

8ball said:


> You mean Wales?


no thats the damp bit of land to the east of the Welsh Channel


----------



## philosophical (Apr 19, 2022)

flypanam said:


> In fairness division in the north has accelerated since the signing of the GFA and it’s parity of esteem selling point has meant that people self identify as nationalist/unionist/other, with other been next to useless as their not counted.
> 
> That the loyalists haven’t been able to mobilise huge numbers, might suggest that for a majority of unionists are happy enough with the current arrangement. I suppose the elections will give a picture of where unionism stands but it won’t be cleat after the votes are counted.


You have a case to say that the GFA has polarised division in the North, but it has seemed to me to have been pushed to the extremes, and the mid ground has enjoyed a lot of physical peace since it's signing.
If the GFA has given an edge to division it has also lead to a huge softening of actual bloodshed.


----------



## pseudonarcissus (Apr 19, 2022)

oh dear..









						Brexit-supporting Newark in shock as largest employer shuts up shop and heads for mainland Europe
					

Local media and residents in the English town of Newark, as well as its local MP Robert Jenrick, are said to be shocked and disappointed by the decision




					www.cityam.com


----------



## pseudonarcissus (Apr 19, 2022)

flypanam said:


> In fairness division in the north has accelerated since the signing of the GFA and it’s parity of esteem selling point has meant that people self identify as nationalist/unionist/other, with other been next to useless as their not counted.
> 
> That the loyalists haven’t been able to mobilise huge numbers, might suggest that for a majority of unionists are happy enough with the current arrangement. I suppose the elections will give a picture of where unionism stands but it won’t be cleat after the votes are counted.


I suspect any move to the unification of Ireland will be economic. Partition was so Great Britain could keep the prosperous, industrialised north. EU member ship levelled up, and diversified, the agricultural south as the north moved into post-Thatcherite de-industrialisation. 

A south that is significantly more prosperous than the north may cause the unionists to consider choosing between their loyalty and their livelihoods. Whether Brexit will bring this about is a matter for conjecture.


----------



## Ax^ (Apr 19, 2022)

gosub said:


> no, the wet bit to the west of Wales



Anglesey ?
​


----------



## existentialist (Apr 20, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> Anglesey ?
> ​


TBF, that's more to the north west...


----------



## ska invita (Apr 22, 2022)

Still unresolved, plan, keep kicking it down the road


----------



## philosophical (Apr 22, 2022)

Who’d of thought the UK/EU land border would be an issue after the victory by the vote to leave?
Coming up to six years after anti Irish racists voted leave they must be loving the ongoing turmoil.


----------



## teqniq (Apr 23, 2022)

i have nothing but contempts for Mogg. He is a national embarrassment:









						EU says Brexit deal is ‘legal obligation which binds UK’ after Jacob Rees-Mogg threat
					

Brexit opportunities minister said UK could break agreement if it wanted




					www.independent.co.uk
				




Say what? Jesus fucking H Christ:


----------



## philosophical (Apr 23, 2022)

It would’ve been shorter to declare ‘I and everybody else who voted leave say “fuck the Irish”’.


----------



## two sheds (Apr 23, 2022)

If they signed it on the understanding it would be reformed there will be a statement in the agreement that it will be reformed.


----------



## Yossarian (Apr 23, 2022)

teqniq said:


> i have nothing but contempts for Mogg. He is a national embarrassment:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



"Why should we treat this deal we signed as some kind of binding agreement? What does the word 'deal' mean, anyway? Is any of this real?" Brexit minister asks, coughing slightly as he passes the bong.


----------



## Cerv (Apr 23, 2022)

he's definitely more of an opium pipe than a bong kind of guy


----------



## The39thStep (Apr 23, 2022)

Portugal Now Applies Same Border Rules to UK Travellers as to EU Citizens to Reduce Airport Queues - SchengenVisaInfo.com
					

Portugal has become the first European Union Member State to treat travellers from the UK the same as those from the EU at its borders. The Portuguese authorities announced last week that the Foreigners and Borders Service started operating four new generation e-gates at Lisbon Airport in order...



					www.schengenvisainfo.com


----------



## Yossarian (Apr 23, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Portugal Now Applies Same Border Rules to UK Travellers as to EU Citizens to Reduce Airport Queues - SchengenVisaInfo.com
> 
> 
> Portugal has become the first European Union Member State to treat travellers from the UK the same as those from the EU at its borders. The Portuguese authorities announced last week that the Foreigners and Borders Service started operating four new generation e-gates at Lisbon Airport in order...
> ...



"Portugal generously exempts Britons from the consequences of their nation's bad choices."


----------



## 2hats (Apr 23, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Portugal Now Applies Same Border Rules to UK Travellers as to EU Citizens to Reduce Airport Queues - SchengenVisaInfo.com
> 
> 
> Portugal has become the first European Union Member State to treat travellers from the UK the same as those from the EU at its borders. The Portuguese authorities announced last week that the Foreigners and Borders Service started operating four new generation e-gates at Lisbon Airport in order...
> ...


Other EU countries have been directing UK passport holders to use their EU/EEA/CH e-gates for months now.


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 23, 2022)

Yossarian said:


> "Portugal generously exempts Britons from the consequences of their nation's bad choices understands that creating pointless border queues is in nobody's best interests"



Sorted.


----------



## The39thStep (Apr 23, 2022)

2hats said:


> Other EU countries have been directing UK passport holders to use their EU/EEA/CH e-gates for months now.


Good for them . At Faro they’ve always just let everyone through what ever manual gates are open but the e-gates have frequently been out of service .


----------



## T & P (Apr 23, 2022)

I think the fairest and best solution all round  would be to wave Brits who voted Remain through the EU gates, while letting Brexit voters fester in the same queue as other non-EU citizens.


----------



## The39thStep (Apr 23, 2022)

T & P said:


> I think the fairest and best solution all round  would be to wave Brits who voted Remain through the EU gates, while letting Brexit voters fester in the same queue as other non-EU citizens.


Not so fast. Surely there should be a question on the Irish border to filter out those who may have voted Remain but who did not consider any of the implications of the border issue when they voted?


----------



## Chilli.s (Apr 23, 2022)

T & P said:


> I think the fairest and best solution all round  would be to wave Brits who voted Remain through the EU gates, while letting Brexit voters fester in the same queue as other non-EU citizens.


harsh but fair


----------



## Ax^ (Apr 23, 2022)

Spymaster said:


> Sorted.



if only the english could understand that before voting to leave


----------



## MrSki (Apr 25, 2022)

How long will it take for any benefits from trade deals to show?

I am starting to doubt it will be in my lifetime.


----------



## teuchter (Apr 25, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Good for them .



I'd have thought that those who wanted to leave the EU due to its racist border policies would be condemning these racist border policies now being implemented by various member nations.


----------



## The39thStep (Apr 25, 2022)

teuchter said:


> I'd have thought that those who wanted to leave the EU due to its racist border policies would be condemning these racist border policies now being implemented by various member nations.


Would you really?


----------



## Maggot (Apr 26, 2022)

Brexit: Tonnes of beetroot left to rot as EU firms look elsewhere
					

Staffordshire farmer Will Woodhall says the lack of demand in Europe will cost him up to £90,000.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## The39thStep (Apr 26, 2022)

He made a very good point 



> Despite all that, Woodhall, who voted to remain in 2016, is remarkably upbeat about the country’s potential long-term prospects outside the EU – if its promises are properly delivered.
> 
> He believes the UK could be capitalising in a decade, but will need that long to adjust and has more questions than answers.
> 
> ...


----------



## andysays (Apr 26, 2022)

Maggot said:


> Brexit: Tonnes of beetroot left to rot as EU firms look elsewhere
> 
> 
> Staffordshire farmer Will Woodhall says the lack of demand in Europe will cost him up to £90,000.
> ...


Looks to me like he took a gamble and it didn't pay off



> After Brexit, Mr Woodhall said he had anticipated problems and so had grown a smaller crop. When business boomed, he decided to increase production again, only to be suddenly cut off.



Trying to predict how much of various crops you'll be able to sell (and actually make some sort of profit on) is a perennial problem within the agriculture industry, so suggesting this is all the result of Brexit is a bit disingenuous, TBH


----------



## Artaxerxes (Apr 26, 2022)

Love beetroot but I’d buy a lot more if it wasn’t always the horrific red variety it is in the supermarkets


----------



## philosophical (Apr 26, 2022)

Better or worse is only defined in monetary terms by complete tossers.


----------



## The39thStep (Apr 26, 2022)

Artaxerxes said:


> Love beetroot but I’d buy a lot more if it wasn’t always the horrific red variety it is in the supermarkets


I've grown white beetroot and for some reason didn't like it , the orange is good and  Chiogga is worth growing if only for plate presentation


----------



## Artaxerxes (Apr 26, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> I've grown white beetroot and for some reason didn't like it , the orange is good and  Chiogga is worth growing if only for plate presentation
> 
> View attachment 320164




The orange/yellow is my favourite. White can be little bland and once it went black due to oxidisation when cooking which was weird but it’s nice enough


----------



## teuchter (Apr 26, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Would you really?


Not really. Of course convenience while undertaking city breaks will win out in practice.


----------



## Maggot (Apr 26, 2022)

andysays said:


> Looks to me like he took a gamble and it didn't pay off
> 
> 
> 
> Trying to predict how much of various crops you'll be able to sell (and actually make some sort of profit on) is a perennial problem within the agriculture industry, so suggesting this is all the result of Brexit is a bit disingenuous, TBH


I love the mental gymnastics that Brexiteers use to try to deny that anything is the fault of Brexit. 

If were were still in the EU he would have been able to sell it.


----------



## eatmorecheese (Apr 26, 2022)

I heard on the radio about the plan to effectively ditch the NI Protocol. 

What a surprise. This will go well...

Dead cat-orama.


----------



## Ax^ (Apr 26, 2022)

the weird thing is many of these are

ok england do your want this


ok your twats


----------



## The39thStep (Apr 26, 2022)

We have a man down


----------



## Yossarian (Apr 26, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> We have a man down




He never seemed mad keen on the EU to start with.

_The leftwing case for Brexit is strategic and clear. The EU is not – and cannot become – a democracy. Instead, it provides the most hospitable ecosystem in the developed world for rentier monopoly corporations, tax-dodging elites and organised crime. It has an executive so powerful it could crush the leftwing government of Greece; a legislature so weak that it cannot effectively determine laws or control its own civil service. A judiciary that, in the Laval and Viking judgments, subordinated workers’ right to strike to an employer’s right do business freely.

Its central bank is committed, by treaty, to favour deflation and stagnation over growth. State aid to stricken industries is prohibited. The austerity we deride in Britain as a political choice is, in fact, written into the EU treaty as a non-negotiable obligation. So are the economic principles of the Thatcher era. A Corbyn-led Labour government would have to implement its manifesto in defiance of EU law.

....

That’s the principled leftwing case for Brexit.

Now here’s the practical reason to ignore it. In two words: Boris Johnson_









						The leftwing case for Brexit (one day)
					

There are many good reasons for the UK to leave the EU. But exiting now would allow Johnson and Gove to turn Britain into a neoliberal fantasy island




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## philosophical (Apr 26, 2022)

That article is bollocks.
So what if it is an 'old' article there is a glaring omission.
Not one word about the practicalities of the EU/UK land border.


----------



## contadino (Apr 27, 2022)

Post-Brexit trade barriers increase price of food imported from EU – report
					

Thinktank finds ‘clear and robust impact’ of Brexit on rising food prices, adding to cost of living crisis




					www.theguardian.com
				




Food prices rose 6% thanks to Brexit. Not covid, not Ukraine...Brexit (according to the LSE).  You can maybe dodge the bullet if you stick to eating tuna and pineapples - you know, low food miles items.


----------



## gosub (Apr 27, 2022)

contadino said:


> Post-Brexit trade barriers increase price of food imported from EU – report
> 
> 
> Thinktank finds ‘clear and robust impact’ of Brexit on rising food prices, adding to cost of living crisis
> ...


They are going to keep rising too, due to non Brexit factors


----------



## RedRedRose (Apr 27, 2022)

What is the consensus among the lexiters? (not trolling by the way) Do they regret their position?


----------



## Ax^ (Apr 27, 2022)

I cannot speak for all lexiters but this thread is 341 pages long and we yet to find out what the benefit of leaving was in the first place


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 27, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> I cannot speak for all lexiters but this thread is 341 pages long and we yet to find out what the benefit of leaving was in the first place


All this lovely debate


----------



## andysays (Apr 27, 2022)

contadino said:


> Post-Brexit trade barriers increase price of food imported from EU – report
> 
> 
> Thinktank finds ‘clear and robust impact’ of Brexit on rising food prices, adding to cost of living crisis
> ...


If you're interested in getting the complete picture, rather than just looking for support for a position you're already convinced of, it's probably good to read to the end of the article, rather than just the headline and first few paras, especially if it's the Guardian



> Jonathan Portes, a senior research fellow at UKICE, said: “While Brexit is not the main driver of rising inflation or the cost of living crisis, this report provides clear evidence that it has led to a substantial increase in food prices



So if food prices have risen by 6% because of Brexit, that suggests the broader cost of living has gone up by more than 6% for non-Brexit reasons.


----------



## Maggot (Apr 27, 2022)

andysays said:


> If you're interested in getting the complete picture, rather than just looking for support for a position you're already convinced of, it's probably good to read to the end of the article, rather than just the headline and first few paras, especially if it's the Guardian
> 
> 
> 
> So if food prices have risen by 6% because of Brexit, that suggests the broader cost of living has gone up by more than 6% for non-Brexit reasons.


Not all the price rises are caused by Brexit, just some of them.  What a ringing endorsement of leaving the EU!


----------



## brogdale (Apr 27, 2022)

A reminder of happier, more optimistic (pre-Brexit) times...


----------



## Ax^ (Apr 27, 2022)

i like we got to stage were defending brexit is now at the stage where whilst it maybe bad thing,

but its not as bad a global pandemic or a war on Europes doorstep


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Apr 27, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> i like we got to stage were defending brexit is now at the stage where whilst it maybe bad thing,
> 
> but its not as bad a global pandemic or a war on Europes doorstep




You seem to be overlooking that with food going up in price waistlines will go down, people will be in better shape, as will the NHS. Dunno why you hate people and the NHS so much?


----------



## Ax^ (Apr 27, 2022)

aye hear shiverring burns calories as well

so this winter the NHS will be in the best shape in years..


----------



## contadino (Apr 27, 2022)

Ah, malnutrition as a Brexit benefit..? Not one that I remember being dawbed on the side of a bus, but add it to the list.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Apr 27, 2022)

Gas and energy bills were meant to decrease to as we’d not be shackled to Europe


----------



## gosub (Apr 27, 2022)

Artaxerxes said:


> Gas and energy bills were meant to decrease to as we’d not be shackled to Europe


reopen  Rough.


----------



## Ax^ (Apr 27, 2022)

Artaxerxes said:


> Gas and energy bills were meant to decrease to as we’d not be shackled to Europe



Well at least the people who swallowed that lie were duped

hate linking to twitter but alas


----------



## RedRedRose (Apr 28, 2022)

Yes, but to what extent is Brexit solely to blame? It's difficult to extrapolate the carnage from both COVID and what's happening in Eastern Europe.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Apr 28, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> I cannot speak for all lexiters but this thread is 341 pages long and we yet to find out what the benefit of leaving was in the first place



Leta get this right. You can’t speak for lexiters because you weren’t and aren’t one. Just like I definitely wouldn’t want to speak to the question of when Remainers are going to be psychologically able to let things go and accept their irrelevance.

As for the latest nonsense: that the cost of living crisis is caused by Brexit rather than a global inflation surge as spending on goods increases I’ll not engage.

Infantile arguments citing Brexit ‘as the cause of everything bad’ rather than an energy shock, China/ Covid and a unique violent normalization of the world economy all operating at the same time, isn’t a debate worth having. There are serious things to discuss instead


----------



## brogdale (Apr 28, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Leta get this right. You can’t speak for lexiters because you weren’t and aren’t one. Just like I definitely wouldn’t want to speak to the question of when Remainers are going to be psychologically able to let things go and *accept their irrelevance*.
> 
> As for the latest nonsense: that Brexit rather than a global inflation surge as spending on goods increases I’ll not bother to engage. Fantasies that Brexit rather than an energy shock, China/ Covid and a unique violent normalization of the world economy, all operating at the same time, isn’t a debate worth having


Interesting take.

In what way(s) do you regard Brexit/Lexit supporters as any more relevant?


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Apr 28, 2022)

brogdale said:


> Interesting take.
> 
> In what way(s) do you regard Brexit/Lexit supporters as any more relevant?



I’m not arguing that. I’m arguing that remainers continue to believe that their arguments/complaints hold some sort of relevance or weight.


----------



## philosophical (Apr 28, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Leta get this right. You can’t speak for lexiters because you weren’t and aren’t one. Just like I definitely wouldn’t want to speak to the question of when Remainers are going to be psychologically able to let things go and accept their irrelevance.
> 
> As for the latest nonsense: that Brexit rather than a global inflation surge as spending on goods increases I’ll not bother to engage. Fantasies that Brexit rather than an energy shock, China/ Covid and a unique violent normalization of the world economy, all operating at the same time, isn’t a debate worth having



Maybe things can only be ‘let go’ when leavers provide a comprehensive solution for the issue of the UK/EU land border in Ireland that they voted for which clashes with the intention of the Belfast Agreement.
The ones with psychological issues over this matter are those who voted leave, but then doublethink themselves into believing the border will sort itself out.
Until lexiters resolve the border issue, remainers will be absolutely relevant.


----------



## bimble (Apr 28, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I’m not arguing that. I’m arguing that remainers continue to believe that their arguments/complaints hold some sort of relevance or weight.


The victors get to write history and the vanquished (thats everyone in the country who didn't queue up to vote leave 6 years ago) should know their place and shut up forever about anything to do with the effects of brexit, the losers. That totally makes sense yeah, especially if you're boris johnson. 

I can't be arsed with it anymore but seriously, if you'\re still looking at the world as divided between these two tribes brexiters & remainers who do you think benefits from you doing that.


----------



## Ax^ (Apr 28, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Leta get this right. You can’t speak for lexiters because you weren’t and aren’t one. Just like I definitely wouldn’t want to speak to the question of when Remainers are going to be psychologically able to let things go and accept their irrelevance.
> 
> As for the latest nonsense: that the cost of living crisis is caused by Brexit rather than a global inflation surge as spending on goods increases I’ll not engage.
> 
> Infantile arguments citing Brexit ‘as the cause of everything bad’ rather than an energy shock, China/ Covid and a unique violent normalization of the world economy all operating at the same time, isn’t a debate worth having. There are serious things to discuss instead



and here's to another 341 pages


----------



## existentialist (Apr 28, 2022)

RedRedRose said:


> Yes, but to what extent is Brexit solely to blame? It's difficult to extrapolate the carnage from both COVID and what's happening in Eastern Europe.


I don't think anyone could seriously suggest that Brexit is _solely_ to blame. But I think it is equally true to say that the protestations of pro-Brexit types that, because there are other confounding factors like Covid in play, there is no way to attribute any of the carnage to Brexit.

And there are things which ARE quite clearly Brexit-related. Look at the outrage at how UK citizens are having to queue longer at airports than their European counterparts, for example, or the stories of UK businesses no longer able to take orders from Eurozone customers because the paperwork burden and costs are so onerous - it's pretty hard to lay those at the door of Covid or the war in Ukraine.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Apr 28, 2022)

bimble said:


> The victors get to write history and the vanquished (thats everyone in the country who didn't queue up to vote leave 6 years ago) should know their place and shut up forever about anything to do with the effects of brexit, the losers. That totally makes sense yeah, especially if you're boris johnson.
> 
> I can't be arsed with it anymore but seriously, if you'\re still looking at the world as divided between these two tribes brexiters & remainers who do you think benefits from you doing that.



On your first paragraph, I think you misunderstand my point. I'm arguing that Remain as praxis, as a prism through which to understand economic, political or social issues is objectively _useless. _ As the traces of the forms of post neo-liberalism take shape there are some cogent arguments for the structure and agglomerated benefits of the EU (I should be clear that in over 350 pages on here NONE of those arguments have been advanced or discussed by remainers, which does tell us something very important in itself) but in Britain the debate is settled for a generation. It's done. It's over.

Despite that reality, there are remainers who vocally pronounce on every issue - rising inflation, P&O Ferries, global demand and prices, capital flight: the list is endless - as being related in some mysterious way 'to Brexit'. Normally this is pronounced in a way that suggests that Remainers are wise and predicted that all of this would happen. This practice gives rise to two problems. Firstly, what they are saying isn't actually true and is widely known to be untrue, making their irrelevance deeper and more abundantly clear. Secondly, its profoundly disorientating for middle class politics, because whilst remaniners are stuck in 2016 the world isn't. We've had perma-crisis since: Covid, War, global economic shocks etc. The failure to understand, discuss and engage with the questions being thrown up in 2022 is further politically paralyzing this layer of society thereby further increasing its rage. It's a vicious circle: the more the irrelevance, the more aggressive the assertion that 'Brexit is to blame'.

My own view on this is that Brexit has become some sort of signifier for a wider trauma within middle class liberalism and reflects, among the petit bourgeois and the PMC, its deep level of disorientation and frustration. It's politics are in retreat across the globe, it's all at sea in a 'culture war' it can't fully understand, its economic position is eroding in the same way our class suffered in the 80's and its role as the narrating class becomes ever more contingent. While Brexit is triggering: because it speaks to a number of those issues, what we are really dealing with here is some sort of middle class psychological episode.      

On your second paragraph, I'm not.

Hope that clarifies matters.


----------



## philosophical (Apr 28, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> On your first paragraph, I think you misunderstand my point. I'm arguing that Remain as praxis, as a prism through which to understand economic, political or social issues is objectively _useless. _ As the traces of the forms of post neo-liberalism take shape there are some cogent arguments for the structure and agglomerated benefits of the EU (I should be clear that in over 350 pages on here NONE of those arguments have been advanced or discussed by remainers, which does tell us something very important in itself) but in Britain the debate is settled for a generation. It's done. It's over.
> 
> Despite that reality, there are remainers who vocally pronounce on every issue - rising inflation, P&O Ferries, global demand and prices, capital flight: the list is endless - as being related in some mysterious way 'to Brexit'. Normally this is pronounced in a way that suggests that Remainers are wise and predicted that all of this would happen. This practice gives rise to two problems. Firstly, what they are saying isn't actually true and is widely known to be untrue, making their irrelevance deeper and more abundantly clear. Secondly, its profoundly disorientating for middle class politics, because whilst remaniners are stuck in 2016 the world isn't. We've had perma-crisis since: Covid, War, global economic shocks etc. The failure to understand, discuss and engage with the questions being thrown up in 2022 is further politically paralyzing this layer of society thereby further increasing its rage. It's a vicious circle: the more the irrelevance, the more aggressive the assertion that 'Brexit is to blame'.
> 
> ...



If you are a lexiter an issue that is grounded in reality is the land border in Ireland between the UK and the EU.
Are you psychologically able to accept responsibility for that aspect of leave?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Apr 28, 2022)

existentialist said:


> I don't think anyone could seriously suggest that Brexit is _solely_ to blame. But I think it is equally true to say that the protestations of pro-Brexit types that, because there are other confounding factors like Covid in play, there is no way to attribute any of the carnage to Brexit.
> 
> And there are things which ARE quite clearly Brexit-related. Look at the *outrage at how UK citizens are having to queue longer at airports than their European counterparts*, for example, or the stories of UK businesses no longer able to take orders from Eurozone customers because the paperwork burden and costs are so onerous - it's pretty hard to lay those at the door of Covid or the war in Ukraine.



Where's this outrage then? The only outrage I've heard about is the ludicrously long waits to cross the UK border at airports for all nationalities in the past 18 months.


----------



## existentialist (Apr 28, 2022)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Where's this outrage then? The only outrage I've heard about is the ludicrously long waits to cross the UK border at airports for all nationalities in the past 18 months.


I was under the impression that there had been some frothing in the usual dank corners of the Press about how UK citizens were being discriminated against in some (Iberian, I think) airports. I can't say that I was really paying all that much attention.


----------



## Ax^ (Apr 28, 2022)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Where's this outrage then? The only outrage I've heard about is the ludicrously long waits to cross the UK border at airports for all nationalities in the past 18 months.



quite sure the dippy ex pat who spent most of the year living in Spain and similar place were less than happy when it was pointed out to bugger off home


----------



## teuchter (Apr 28, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I'm arguing that Remain as praxis, as a prism through which to understand economic, political or social issues is objectively _useless. _



I think that what you really mean is that _Brexit as praxis, as a prism through which to understand economic, political or social issues is objectively useless. _

And this is equally true or untrue whether the person looking through the prism voted remain or leave or neither in the referendum.


----------



## philosophical (Apr 28, 2022)

Why is it useless?
In political and social terms ‘Brexit’ (whatever that is supposed to mean) is a chance to reflect on the concept of ‘nations’ and cooperation/collaboration between people on a shared planet.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Apr 28, 2022)

teuchter said:


> I think that what you really mean is that _Brexit as praxis, as a prism through which to understand economic, political or social issues is objectively useless. _
> 
> And this is equally true or untrue whether the person looking through the prism voted remain or leave or neither in the referendum.



I agree. Although I am unaware of any 'lexiters' who do that.


----------



## bimble (Apr 28, 2022)

Smokeandsteam I didn't realise that when you talk about Remainers what you're actually talking about are some people who exist (where?) who six years on are unable to perceive anything in the world apart from though the prism of brexit and how brexit is bad. I haven't come across those people & if they exist they are extremely irrelevant i agree.

but this bit


Smokeandsteam said:


> what we are really dealing with here is some sort of middle class psychological episode.


i think you've got a point there, something similar to 'trump derangement syndrome'  (stupid name but a phenomenon that did exist) where all those educated urbane people were left reeling by the shock of how they hadn't seen it coming & what was revealed about the world which they'd previously thought they understood.


----------



## Cerv (Apr 28, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> As for the latest nonsense: that the cost of living crisis is caused by Brexit rather than a global inflation surge as spending on goods increases I’ll not engage.


Has anyone seriously suggested that? 
Or in fact that Brexit has made a non-trivial contribution to the problem, and will continue to do so, and its contribution will get worse when the Brexit project is further implemented (e.g. the 4 times delayed customs checks).

There is no need to pretend it's an either/or that Brexit is perfectly blameless or the total cause of all life's problems.


----------



## brogdale (Apr 28, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I’m not arguing that. I’m arguing that remainers continue to believe that their arguments/complaints hold some sort of relevance or weight.


Well they do; precisely as much as yours...that's surely the salient point?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 28, 2022)

Given the clusterfuck that this brexit, the one that's actually happened, has been, I'd say that we should all have good reason to question how it was done and the rotten principles behind it. If you don't link the hostile environment towards refugees to the anti-immigration-enabling of brexit, I suggest you haven't been paying attention.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Apr 28, 2022)

existentialist said:


> I was under the impression that there had been some frothing in the usual dank corners of the Press about how UK citizens were being discriminated against in some (Iberian, I think) airports. I can't say that I was really paying all that much attention.




One or two gammons ranting doesn't count as outrage. The passport control issue that's causing problems is the UK border for all nationalities, under our esteemed home sec it has gone totally to shit, with >2 hour queues becoming very normal. This started with Covid as passenger locator forms needed to be checked which took time, but is now just a massive understaffing issue.


----------



## bimble (Apr 28, 2022)

4 times it’s been delayed already, the implementation of the brilliant plan. It’s just embarrassing really.








						New approach to import controls to help ease cost of living
					

The Government has concluded that it would be wrong to impose new administrative requirements on businesses who may pass-on the associated costs to consumers.




					www.gov.uk
				












						Rees-Mogg set to delay post-Brexit fresh food checks for fourth time
					

Minister expected to frame move as a use of UK’s independent powers despite industry reports of unreadiness




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Boris Sprinkler (Apr 28, 2022)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> One or two gammons ranting doesn't count as outrage. The passport control issue that's causing problems is the UK border for all nationalities, under our esteemed home sec it has gone totally to shit, with >2 hour queues becoming very normal. This started with Covid as passenger locator forms needed to be checked which took time, but is now just a massive understaffing issue.



Eh? No one checked my plf when I visited last. In fact I felt a bit mugged off. But that’s par for the course in the UK nowadays


----------



## brogdale (Apr 28, 2022)

bimble said:


> 4 times it’s been delayed already, the implementation of the brilliant plan. It’s just embarrassing really.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


'Nationalist neoliberalism' eating itself...


----------



## Rob Ray (Apr 28, 2022)

> this thread is 341 pages long and we yet to find out what the benefit of leaving was



It's not online afaik, but Rob Griffiths wrote in to the Star recently essentially arguing that the Lexit campaign always knew the outcome of leaving the EU would be an almighty battle for the future of Britain, but that battle was one worth having and even if lost, the act of Brexit would permanently leave more room for future left reform than staying would have. So in that part of the left's mind it's not about whether there's benefits now, or even in the medium term.

Personally I voted remain because while I actually semi-agree with the sentiment in terms of the direction and MO of the EU it seemed painfully obvious that the outcome of Leave in the way it went down would not lead to a left revival but a long era of chaotic, unfettered neoliberal war on working class people, worsened by bullying from greater powers, which would probably last for most of the rest of my life. I'm still hoping to be wrong.


----------



## T & P (Apr 28, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> It's not online afaik, but Rob Griffiths wrote in to the Star recently essentially arguing that the Lexit campaign always knew the outcome of leaving the EU would be an almighty battle for the future of Britain, but that battle was one worth having and even if lost, the act of Brexit would permanently leave more room for future left reform than staying would have. So in that part of the left's mind it's not about whether there's benefits now, or even in the medium term.
> 
> Personally I voted remain because while I actually semi-agree with the sentiment in terms of the direction and MO of the EU it was painfully obvious that the outcome of Leave in the way it went down would not lead to a left revival but a long era of chaotic, unfettered neoliberal war on working class people which would probably last for most of the rest of my life.


The elephant in the room that Lexists continue to ignore, and and fail to address when brought up in this forum, is that Brexit permanently and irrevocably fucked up the livelihoods, prospects and often lives of millions of ordinary working class people, both here and in the Continent, by voting for a system that automatically removed freedom of movement/ right to settle for everyone in this country, and those in the EU wishing to come here. In many cases this has already resulted in families being broken up or forced to live apart. A odious atrocity and heartbreaking tragedy needlessly imposed upon countless ordinary good people that I fucking hope will prey on the minds of those who voted for Brexit until the day they die.


----------



## Rob Ray (Apr 28, 2022)

He goes into some depth on the immediate/near-term impact in the below 2021 interview where his argument is on the lines of "it's not been as bad as Remainers were saying it'd be." Unsaid here but implicit (and sometimes explicit elsewhere) is the idea that sacrifice in the short term is justified by gains in the longer term. So fairly much in line with what most pro-Brexit people reckon really, albeit with a leftie twist.



Again as someone who was not personally convinced that the payoff would be worth the damage, it _is_ logical within the Lexit framework. Plus there's more or less reasonable additions that can be made since regarding the increased severity of what's happening now with the post-pandemic inflation spiral, global energy/food shortages etc that they could not have been predicted in the 2015-16 campaign period. How much of that would be accurate and how much obfuscation is difficult to say.


----------



## philosophical (Apr 28, 2022)

I would say the above podcast is bollocks because it does not address what leave means in terms of the land border.
It is all very well indulging in theoretical mental gymnastics, but there are practical issues to respect, for example if your house has it’s kitchen in one system, and your bathroom in another.
Or there is a border between two systems with over 200 crossing points.
So where are the practical solutions from the so called left wing pro Brexit forces?


----------



## bimble (Apr 28, 2022)

T & P said:


> The elephant in the room that Lexists continue to ignore, and and fail to address when brought up in this forum, is that Brexit permanently and irrevocably fucked up the livelihoods, prospects and often lives of millions of ordinary working class people, both here and in the Continent, by voting for a system that automatically removed freedom of movement/ right to settle for everyone in this country, and those in the EU wishing to come here. In many cases this has already resulted in families being broken up or forced to live apart. A odious atrocity and heartbreaking tragedy needlessly imposed upon countless ordinary good people that I fucking hope will prey on the minds of those who voted for Brexit until the day they die.


No no only posh people go abroad, or people who are coming here to depress our wages.


----------



## Rob Ray (Apr 28, 2022)

> I would say the above podcast is bollocks because it does not address what leave means in terms of the land border.



Not addressing a specific concern of yours doesn't make a thing bollocks, it just means a particular point remains unaddressed. Tbh the tone of "Remainers" with this stuff is one of the reasons I don't engage with the conversation much - it's all "AHAH, BUT WHAT ABOUT THIS"  as though at some point you'll get the (absent) foe to admit to their idiocy by cornering them on 'Issue 593 of Why Brexit Is Bad'. They won't, and it's a poor approach to take if you want to either understand them or change minds (if that's your aim, rather than just I dunno, indulging yourself in a bit of an anger wank).


----------



## Ax^ (Apr 28, 2022)

i take to the idea that philoso is from north ireland so take the land boarder issue inside of ireland 
as a little bit of a serious concern that some of us down in london or other parts of england

i can understand it diggin up issue in north ireland is not a good idea

hey its why the american president thinks Boris Johnson is a gobshite


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Apr 28, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> It's not online afaik, but Rob Griffiths wrote in to the Star recently essentially arguing that the Lexit campaign always knew the outcome of leaving the EU would be an almighty battle for the future of Britain, but that battle was one worth having and even if lost, the act of Brexit would permanently leave more room for future left reform than staying would have. So in that part of the left's mind it's not about whether there's benefits now, or even in the medium term.
> 
> Personally I voted remain because while I actually semi-agree with the sentiment in terms of the direction and MO of the EU it seemed painfully obvious that the outcome of Leave in the way it went down would not lead to a left revival but a long era of chaotic, unfettered neoliberal war on working class people, worsened by bullying from greater powers, which would probably last for most of the rest of my life. I'm still hoping to be wrong.


I think it will last for the rest of your life. I see the whole left revival thing punted by lexiters as being in the same bracket as people like Rees-Mogg saying we'll see economic benefits in 50 years time. Oh goody, 50 years eh? Voting for something that might happen in 50 years time is obviously what normal people base their votes on. 

I too voted remain for the same reasons as you. Anyone could see it would be a shit show but then it would've been a shit show had remain won because Cameron would've stayed in office. What a country! 

In the end I think most people on here want lexiters to be right but I just see very little sign of it even in the medium term. Long term perhaps but that will have very little, if anything, to do with Brexit and more to do with a failing eco system that may or may not force us to cooperate more with each other.


----------



## Yossarian (Apr 28, 2022)

The referendum was almost six years ago, I think it could be time to move on from referring to people as Remainers, Lexiters, and "Brexiteers" - Britain has exited the EU under a Tory government so the first two describe advocates of actions that are no longer possible and the third describes advocates of a process that has already been completed.

I think it's also time to stop Brexit-shaming those who voted Leave, to better draw a distinction between Brexit as a concept and the mess the Tories have made of it, right now we seem to be in a bizarre situation where supporters of the former feel compelled to defend the latter.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Apr 28, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> It's not online afaik, but Rob Griffiths wrote in to the Star recently essentially arguing that the Lexit campaign always knew the outcome of leaving the EU would be an almighty battle for the future of Britain, but that battle was one worth having and even if lost, the act of Brexit would permanently leave more room for future left reform than staying would have. So in that part of the left's mind it's not about whether there's benefits now, or even in the medium term.
> 
> Personally I voted remain because while I actually semi-agree with the sentiment in terms of the direction and MO of the EU it seemed painfully obvious that the outcome of Leave in the way it went down would not lead to a left revival but a long era of chaotic, unfettered neoliberal war on working class people, worsened by bullying from greater powers, which would probably last for most of the rest of my life. I'm still hoping to be wrong.



Oh I agree a leftist cause is worth fighting for brexit over it’s just there was none available, to fragmented to poor and every means of getting a left message across because the only left person about was an old fart and his antisemitic mates in the face of a locked down media


----------



## philosophical (Apr 28, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> Not addressing a specific concern of yours doesn't make a thing bollocks, it just means a particular point remains unaddressed. Tbh the tone of "Remainers" with this stuff is one of the reasons I don't engage with the conversation much - it's all "AHAH, BUT WHAT ABOUT THIS"  as though at some point you'll get the (absent) foe to admit to their idiocy by cornering them on 'Issue 593 of Why Brexit Is Bad'. They won't, and it's a poor approach to take if you want to either understand them or change minds (if that's your aim, rather than just I dunno, indulging yourself in a bit of an anger wank).


I disagree with you because I see my concern about the land border as the _fundamental_ concern attached to the word 'leave', not some side issue number 593.
I am not concerned about changing minds as wanting leave voters to deal with the practicality they voted for.
We disagree if I see peace in Ireland as an absolute fundamental, and you see it as some mere afterthought down the list in position 593.
In order to understand why people voted leave I need to understand why they voted that way when it risks fucking up a very hard won (and flawed) Belfast Agreement.
What would you say are the 593 more important issues that flow from the leave victory?


----------



## philosophical (Apr 28, 2022)

Yossarian said:


> The referendum was almost six years ago, I think it could be time to move on from referring to people as Remainers, Lexiters, and "Brexiteers" - Britain has exited the EU under a Tory government so the first two describe advocates of actions that are no longer possible and the third describes advocates of a process that has already been completed.
> 
> I think it's also time to stop Brexit-shaming those who voted Leave, to better draw a distinction between Brexit as a concept and the mess the Tories have made of it, right now we seem to be in a bizarre situation where supporters of the former feel compelled to defend the latter.


'Britain' might have somehow exited the UK under a Tory government, but not the 'UK' which is what was voted for on the ballot paper.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Apr 28, 2022)

philosophical said:


> I am not concerned about changing minds as wanting leave voters to deal with the practicality they voted for.


That’s a fundamental misunderstanding of the responsibilities of the electorate, but I guess we all need a hobby.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Apr 28, 2022)

Boris Sprinkler said:


> Eh? No one checked my plf when I visited last. In fact I felt a bit mugged off. But that’s par for the course in the UK nowadays



The UK was the first in Europe to drop all restrictions. But when they were in place you wouldn't have been able to board the flight without it being lodged in the system.


----------



## Rob Ray (Apr 28, 2022)

I didn't characterise it as a side issue philosophical, I said not addressing it didn't make the whole interview bollocks. A shortcoming would be fair enough to say. The "issue 593" thing was not aimed at you specifically either, rather a general trend.


----------



## Dystopiary (Apr 29, 2022)

T & P said:


> The elephant in the room that Lexists continue to ignore, and and fail to address when brought up in this forum, is that Brexit permanently and irrevocably fucked up the livelihoods, prospects and often lives of millions of ordinary working class people, both here and in the Continent, by voting for a system that automatically removed freedom of movement/ right to settle for everyone in this country, and those in the EU wishing to come here. In many cases this has already resulted in families being broken up or forced to live apart. A odious atrocity and heartbreaking tragedy needlessly imposed upon countless ordinary good people that I fucking hope will prey on the minds of those who voted for Brexit until the day they die.


Totally agree with you on this, but the last bit I don't feel, cause I don't think people were given anywhere near enough info. It was thrown out there by Cameron and I don't feel that level of angry with people who voted in favour, though I do feel bloody frustrated, particularly with people still banging on about how it was a good thing. (And the xenophobes can piss right off obviously.) I hate how divisive it's been.

In an ideal world there'd be no EU, it's essentially a capitalist trading bloc, but (maybe not the best analogy) you're not going to tell your boss to shove it or tell the DWP to get bent when you've got no other means to live. The Brexit vote gave other people the chance to do that for the rest. Plus how the hell anyone thought even the shower of shit in Wesrminster at the time would do a halfway decent job of anything, I have no idea.



bimble said:


> No no only posh people go abroad, or people who are coming here to depress our wages.


Yeah, I think lexiters really don't get how taking away freedom of movement has absolutely bollocksed it for people. 

And honestly, I think Brexit fans who aren't adversely affected by it are going to keep being sneery about cause they just don't get it. They have a good job, an alternative passport, or just a strong belief that this will one day be wonderful for the workers of the UK. So 🤷‍♀️


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Apr 29, 2022)

Dystopiary said:


> Yeah, I think lexiters really don't get how taking away freedom of movement has absolutely bollocksed it for people.


It's not only bollocksed things up in the actual removal of rights to live and work where you want it's not even good for workers in this country.

One of the main reasons people voted to leave was because of the perception that cheaper EU labour was undercutting wages. A fair enough reason but what's now happening is workers from outside the EU are now coming to work here and are coming in greater numbers than EU workers. How this wasn't predicted by a lot more people is beyond me. I saw it coming a mile off and I don't consider myself particularly impressive at making predictions like this.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Apr 29, 2022)

On seeing everything through the brexit prism, this is explicitly a brexit government, made up of vote leave people, elected on an “oven ready” deal which is unraveling in NI and like the whole thing was a pack of lies. The other things that they are pushing  now, voter Id, hotel Rwanda, the lack of help for p&o, this is their politics and they are there in power, able to carry them out because of brexit.


----------



## Boris Sprinkler (Apr 29, 2022)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> The UK was the first in Europe to drop all restrictions. But when they were in place you wouldn't have been able to board the flight without it being lodged in the system.


But why would that have caused delays at passport control? 
When no one was checking shit? Paying 50 odd quid for a 2 day test that wasn’t reported back for 8 days. 
Also they weren’t the first to drop all restrictions. Cos that was where I live. 
Nowhere else in Europe implemented such a system of wealth dispersal to Tory mates.


----------



## ska invita (Apr 29, 2022)

Doctor Carrot said:


> One of the main reasons people voted to leave was because of the perception that cheaper EU labour was undercutting wages. A fair enough reason but what's now happening is workers from outside the EU are now coming to work here and are coming in greater numbers than EU workers.


...and crucially coming with less rights and less protections
...points based immigration is class-based immigration
...its a step back for european working class people, on that level


----------



## gosub (Apr 29, 2022)

RedRedRose said:


> Yes, but to what extent is Brexit solely to blame? It's difficult to extrapolate the carnage from both COVID and what's happening in Eastern Europe.


+ the closing of Rough


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Apr 29, 2022)

Boris Sprinkler said:


> But why would that have caused delays at passport control?
> When no one was checking shit? Paying 50 odd quid for a 2 day test that wasn’t reported back for 8 days.
> Also they weren’t the first to drop all restrictions. Cos that was where I live.
> Nowhere else in Europe implemented such a system of wealth dispersal to Tory mates.




They were checking it again at passport control as they hadn't sorted out a system where the airlines could transmit the data to Border Force, yet the airline would be fined by HMG if they failed to check all was in order before carrying a passenger, so queues at check in and at passport control.



> so they weren’t the first to drop all restrictions.



Apologies, I meant to say "first major travel destination to drop restrictions." - of course Mexico never had any restrictions at all, so technically they were first.


----------



## bimble (Apr 30, 2022)

Its quite something, this bit by Rees-Mogg (Minister for Brexit Opportunities) the other day.
Here he is explaining that the reason they have yet again delayed the implementation of brexit is that _it would be an act of self harm to go through with it. _


They'll probably keep kicking it down the road until just before next election, if not for ever, but for him of all people to actually have said this out loud on camera is kind of amazing.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Apr 30, 2022)

The British papers of course being written by solid working class credential journalists


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## Ax^ (May 1, 2022)

Spain airport gives Irish tourists 'preferential treatment' leaving Brits angry


> Spain airport sees Irish tourists given 'preferential treatment' as angry Brits watch on, Malaga Airport has been accused by British passport holders of giving Irish passengers "preferential treatment" with an "express lane" as they watch on from a separate queue


----------



## gosub (May 1, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> Spain airport gives Irish tourists 'preferential treatment' leaving Brits angry


that is  I grant you but Spain not recognising UK driving licenses is taking the piss a bit


----------



## ska invita (May 1, 2022)

gosub said:


> Spain not recognising UK driving licenses is taking the piss a bit


whats the details of that?


----------



## Ax^ (May 1, 2022)

gosub said:


> that is  I grant you but Spain not recognising UK driving licenses is taking the piss a bit



not just spain, you need your passport if you go into ireland from the uk


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## Chilli.s (May 1, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> you need your passport if you go into ireland from the uk


Airlines want to see a passport to fly within the uk too


----------



## gosub (May 1, 2022)

Chilli.s said:


> Airlines want to see a passport to fly within the uk too


Only if you have hold luggage


----------



## Ax^ (May 1, 2022)

you can flight to North ireland with a Driving licease

Air lingus will ask for you passport


----------



## Raheem (May 1, 2022)

Can't they just tell you're British by looking into your eyes?


----------



## gosub (May 1, 2022)

ska invita said:


> whats the details of that?











						UK driving licences no longer valid in Spain
					

British residents with no Spanish licence to take Spanish tests!. Embassy still confident of a deal being reached.




					www.google.com
				





Not that I want to drive in Spain, the standard of driving there is appalling you constantly have to flash your headlights and beep your horn to remind people to get over to the left. Surprised there aren't more accidents


----------



## Ax^ (May 1, 2022)

Raheem said:


> Can't they just tell you're British by looking into your eyes?



only realable way to tell if someone is english or not is to wait and see if they form a queue around the depature gate without promting from the staff


----------



## andysays (May 1, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> only realable way to tell if someone is english or not is to wait and see if they form a queue around the depature gate without promting from the staff


And then tutting at those who don't queue properly...


----------



## Maltin (May 1, 2022)

gosub said:


> that is  I grant you but Spain not recognising UK driving licenses is taking the piss a bit


Why is it taking the piss? Why should brits be exempt from following the rules that others likely have to follow? Spain isn’t the only country in the world that requires people living there to take tests to get a license even if they have a license from another country. I believe that the UK do too.


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## teuchter (May 1, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> only realable way to tell if someone is english or not is to wait and see if they form a queue around the depature gate without promting from the staff


A good way to tell if someone is English is if they use "English" and "British" as interchangeable terms.


----------



## Elpenor (May 1, 2022)

teuchter said:


> A good way to tell if someone is English is if they use "English" and "British" as interchangeable terms.


IME that’s a confusion common to almost every nationality.


----------



## teuchter (May 1, 2022)

Elpenor said:


> IME that’s a confusion common to almost every nationality.


Thanks to English people, who ought to know better.


----------



## contadino (May 1, 2022)

teuchter said:


> A good way to tell if someone is English is if they use "English" and "British" as interchangeable terms.


I'm ashamed to be both/either.


----------



## Raheem (May 2, 2022)

Maltin said:


> Why is it taking the piss? Why should brits be exempt from following the rules that others likely have to follow? Spain isn’t the only country in the world that requires people living there to take tests to get a license even if they have a license from another country. I believe that the UK do too.


I think it's not that you can't drive in Spain using a UK driving licence, it's that you can't use it as a substitute for a passport to enter the country (which I think you couldn't before Brexit anyway).


----------



## bluescreen (May 2, 2022)

Raheem said:


> I think it's not that you can't drive in Spain using a UK driving licence, it's that you can't use it as a substitute for a passport to enter the country (which I think you couldn't before Brexit anyway).


No, you can't use it to drive in Spain. I have relatives in France who were worried the same thing would happen to them, but the respective governments managed to reach agreement.









						UK-Issued Driving Licences No Longer Valid for Britons Living in Spain From May 1 - SchengenVisaInfo.com
					

The United Kingdom authorities have announced that starting from May 1, all British citizens who have been residing in Spain for over six months will no longer be permitted to drive with their UK-issued driving licences. The news was announced last night by the British Ambassador to Spain, Hugh...



					www.schengenvisainfo.com


----------



## gosub (May 2, 2022)

bluescreen said:


> No, you can't use it to drive in Spain. I have relatives in France who were worried the same thing would happen to them, but the respective governments managed to reach agreement.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The work  around will IMO be the £5.50 Inernational Driving Permit same as the Yanks if they want to drive in Spain.  As usual  gov.uk isn't up to speed


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## philosophical (May 2, 2022)

All languages in the EU are official languages.
The three ‘working’ languages are French, German and English.
It should now be changed to French, German and Spanish in my opinion, and all the ‘working’ stuff previously only in English, should be required in either French, German and Spanish.
There are a lot of positive reasons why Spanish should now replace English as one of the three main EU working languages.
The UK voted leave so any decision made by the EU as to how they proceed is none of the UK’s business.


----------



## The39thStep (May 2, 2022)

philosophical said:


> All languages in the EU are official languages.
> The three ‘working’ languages are French, German and English.
> It should now be changed to French, German and Spanish in my opinion, and all the ‘working’ stuff previously only in English, should be required in either French, German and Spanish.
> There are a lot of positive reasons why Spanish should now replace English as one of the three main EU working languages.
> The UK voted leave so any decision made by the EU as to how they proceed is none of the UK’s business.


so why is it yours then?


----------



## Pickman's model (May 2, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> so why is it yours then?


Yeh you'd have thought he'd have given the Irish some thought before proposing the erection of a linguistic barrier


----------



## philosophical (May 2, 2022)

The English speakers in Ireland are about the same number as Flemish speakers in the EU.


----------



## philosophical (May 2, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> so why is it yours then?


Why is what mine?

I get it, why is it my business?
Because I have an EU passport, and also a long lapsed British one.
Anyway, I think Spanish would be a great choice.
It is a Southern European language with ‘Latin’ features which might benefit others like Italians and Portuguese . Spanish is a huge language in the Americas and certainly South America, and the EU adopting Spanish as a main working language might give a boost to language education in the UK and create jobs.


----------



## teuchter (May 2, 2022)

English is the world's most widely spoken language. And it's the world's main lingua franca whether anyone likes it or not. As the EU interacts with the rest of the world, it seems pretty sensible to have English as one of its official languages.

And aside from that, English is the most widely understood language within the EU too. It would be nuts to dump it as an official language - everyone would carry on using it anyway.


----------



## philosophical (May 2, 2022)

teuchter said:


> English is the world's most widely spoken language. And it's the world's main lingua franca whether anyone likes it or not. As the EU interacts with the rest of the world, it seems pretty sensible to have English as one of its official languages.
> 
> And aside from that, English is the most widely understood language within the EU too. It would be nuts to dump it as an official language - everyone would carry on using it anyway.


If they carry on using it anyway then dropping English as a formal working language and replacing it with (only my suggestion) Spanish would be no biggie.
There is a lot of the 'rest of the world' that use Spanish, and the use of Spanish would recognise the importance of an EU state.
The UK has left after all.
Latin used to be a pan European language previously, but it isn't one now, there may well be future circumstances where English becomes very marginal.
Confronting languages other than English may well be of huge benefit to the English speaking population in the UK.
Could even become a joint learning experience along with humility.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (May 2, 2022)

gosub said:


> The work around will IMO be the £5.50 Inernational Driving Permit same as the Yanks if they want to drive in Spain. As usual gov.uk isn't up to speed



Isn't the IDP more for people who are on a holiday or other shortish stay, rather than people who are now resident?

As far as I'm aware, when UK was in the EU, driving licences were interchangeable, but if you became resident in the UK, you were expected to exchange your (EU country issued) licence for a DVLA one (same as you can drive a non UK registered car here if you're on holiday but if you move here you are supposed to register it in the UK) or of course vice versa if you had a UK licence but moved somewhere else.

If Spain are singling out the UK for the lols, then not good.

If Spain are now treating UK the same as any other non EU country, 'taking back control'...


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (May 2, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> not just spain, you need your passport if you go into ireland from the uk


No you don’t, the common travel area is wholly unaffected by Brexit

Airlines want to see a passport to fly within the uk too

Nope



gosub said:


> Only if you have hold luggage



BA doesn’t. And Loganair and EasyJet’s insistence is as you say only tested when checking in baggage and they capitulate the moment you say you have jack.


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## gosub (May 4, 2022)

UK delays full checks on EU food imports -- again
					

Checks on certain food imports from Europe have been delayed once more by the government in the United Kingdom. Jacob Rees-Mogg, Brexit opportunities




					www.foodsafetynews.com
				




Came up in my FB feed by one of those types who seems inintent on trying to keep EU membership an a thing (he's only 50 doomiing yourself to 30 years of being seen as increasingly irrelevant and tedious seems an odd lfe choice, but it's a free country)

Checks ARE important. We were getting horsemeat lasagna before we left the EU, no checks and we end up a dumping ground for every substandard bit of food in the EU)

What is needed is a Vetinary standards in food HNC. That EU also acknowledges then they can do both the import and export checks. A lower qualification than currently required but it shouldn't take 7 years trading to sign off a packet of chocolate biscuits. Would reduce costs and bottleneck without endangering public.health


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## Artaxerxes (May 5, 2022)

Forgot this was on.



			https://mobile.twitter.com/unboxed2022
		


3000 followers for a 120 million festival seems a poor result.


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## sleaterkinney (May 5, 2022)

Boris has cracked it, food, lighting and heating all in one!


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## Artaxerxes (May 5, 2022)

sleaterkinney said:


> Boris has cracked it, food, lighting and heating all in one!


----------



## brogdale (May 7, 2022)

Old windy's not a happy camper!


----------



## Artaxerxes (May 8, 2022)




----------



## Yossarian (May 8, 2022)

Artaxerxes said:


>




"The Brexiting will continue until the economy improves."


----------



## brogdale (May 10, 2022)

_Bork markets



_


----------



## Ax^ (May 10, 2022)

hmm got love for all the hand wringing that the Torys will do about caring about North Ireland and the state of the union
they are quite happy to just ignore how people vote in ulster

after an election lose by the DUP due to being focused on removing the protocol, the fuck with Tories are willing to ignore
the rest of the population and go with the dickhead orange men ideas

and by the sounds of it just to satisfy Truss self interest in a premotion


----------



## brogdale (May 10, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> hmm got love for all the hand wringing that the Torys will do about caring about North Ireland and the state of the union
> they are quite happy to just ignore how people vote in ulster
> 
> after an election lose by the DUP due to being focused on removing the protocol, the fuck with Tories are willing to ignore
> ...


Amidst the class-war of stagflation, just what's needed...a trade war with the supra state


----------



## ska invita (May 10, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> and by the sounds of it just to satisfy Truss self interest in a premotion


The Truss thing is nonsense IMO, theyve been talking about tearing it up for months, from before they signed it really, and this most recent threat for a couple of weeks


----------



## philosophical (May 10, 2022)

Who’d have thought the vote to leave by the leave voting bastards would lead to trouble relating to the UK/EU land border?
All the Urbanites who have dug me out over this for the past years since 2016, leavers or remainers, have resorted to personals rather than confront the specific practical issues.
Makes me nostalgic for those more innocent days in the past when there was supposed to be ‘technological’ solutions.
I often return to the notion that there is deep lying, sometimes unconscious antipathy towards the Irish.
The remark about the shortage of potatoes on the local election thread is part of this.
Now we have the Irish issue used as a backdrop for power plays by vile politicians.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (May 10, 2022)

Macron is trying to drum up support to open the EU to the UK again without the UK having to join the EU...









						Macron floats European ‘community’ open to Ukraine and UK
					

French president says it will probably take ‘decades’ for Kyiv to join EU but his plan would offer closer links to countries outside the bloc.




					www.politico.eu
				




Which appears to be offering the UK the chance to cherry-pick the bits of the EU it wants, exactly what wasn't permitted in the leaving talks.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 10, 2022)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Macron is trying to drum up support to open the EU to the UK again without the UK having to join the EU...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


he seems to be the point man for the eu when dealing with difficult regimes, first putin and now johnson


----------



## two sheds (May 10, 2022)

philosophical said:


> leave voting bastards ... All the Urbanites ... have resorted to personals


----------



## Pickman's model (May 10, 2022)

it's like the history of ireland wasn't replete with examples of politicians using that country for their own power plays


----------



## steeplejack (May 10, 2022)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Macron is trying to drum up support to open the EU to the UK again without the UK having to join the EU...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Rhetorical flatulence designed to make him look like a great thinker on the world stage, whilst staving off a persistent far-right threat domestically, with peoples and nations from Skopje to Tblisi shrugged off as expendable, second class collateral.

In reality a snivelling, triangulating, Blairite cretin who copies Zelensky's khaki fashions whilst making wheedling and entirely useless phonecalls to Putin.


----------



## ska invita (May 10, 2022)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Macron is trying to drum up support to open the EU to the UK again without the UK having to join the EU...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


clearly a ruse to suck the UK back in...slippery slope....customs union before you know it


----------



## steeplejack (May 10, 2022)

The elephant in the room is this. Britain just can't turn around post-Johnson and say _"lads, we've fucked it, let's rejoin"_. The EU27 would have to agree and Britain has more than enough enemies on the continet that had their time wasted endlessly from 2016-2021 and who are now rolling their eyes as utter nonetities like Truss and Mogg talk about ripping up a solemnly agreed international treaty.

There is no way the EU would agree to a UK return for a generation- partly through spite, partly because the EU needs to demonstrate the painful consequences for anyone else thinking of jumping ship. Not that anyone is.

There has been some misleading stuff written lately as the Britain could just change it's mind. It's the descendant of the magical thinking that the UK could somehow enjoy the benefits of EU membership whilst also leaving.

I agree that the debate is over and we need to move on. History is getting faster and socio-economic conditions worse and worse. Who gives a fuck how people voted six years ago? We all have to address the now.


----------



## The39thStep (May 10, 2022)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Macron is trying to drum up support to open the EU to the UK again without the UK having to join the EU...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


“This new European organization would allow democratic European nations adhering to our set of values to find a new space for political cooperation"  Good to see Macron align Johnson's government with the EU's set of values


----------



## contadino (May 10, 2022)

steeplejack said:


> The elephant in the room is this. Britain just can't turn around post-Johnson and say _"lads, we've fucked it, let's rejoin"_. The EU27 would have to agree and Britain has more than enough enemies on the continet that had their time wasted endlessly from 2016-2021 and who are now rolling their eyes as utter nonetities like Truss and Mogg talk about ripping up a solemnly agreed international treaty.
> 
> There is no way the EU would agree to a UK return for a generation- partly through spite, partly because the EU needs to demonstrate the painful consequences for anyone else thinking of jumping ship. Not that anyone is.
> 
> ...


Yeah, you're right. However, despite what Brexiteers will have us believe, 'Brexit' isn't a single, binary thing. We could, for example, agree to rejoin the Erasmus programme, or agree to participate in Euratom, or agree regulatory alignment without being 'back in Europe.' There are hundreds of schemes that we opted to leave for no real purpose or benefit, and with no consultation.

The Brexit that we've ended up with is a largely idealistic demolition ball that benefits a small group of disaster capitalists.


----------



## Artaxerxes (May 10, 2022)

Happy to move on but I’m going to continue calling the bunch of self serving cunts who are in charge and wanted this a bunch of cunts and brexit a crap show.

I don’t expect to rejoin in the next few decades but I’d like a decent relationship with the EU which is apparently not on the cards


----------



## steeplejack (May 10, 2022)

contadino said:


> Yeah, you're right. However, despite what Brexiteers will have us believe, 'Brexit' isn't a single, binary thing. We could, for example, agree to rejoin the Erasmus programme, or agree to participate in Euratom, or agree regulatory alignment without being 'back in Europe.' There are hundreds of schemes that we opted to leave for no real purpose or benefit, and with no consultation.
> 
> The Brexit that we've ended up with is a largely idealistic demolition ball that benefits a small group of disaster capitalists.



Yes I agree, rejoining Erasmus would be a really positive step, ditto Euratom.

It's fine to be a full member of these supranational bodies without rejoining IMO. I'm also fine with a reasonable relation with the EU, currently not on the table, because of Tory posturing / infighting.

However having voted 'remain" by only a fag paper's margin have to accept that the debate is done. I'm also fine with that and hold no candle for the EU as some ideal.

There are many grim consequences to be dealt as a result of Brexit for a few years yet economically and politically. We'll like be dead by the time any "benefit" - if that's ever to happen- percolates downward. Much more interesting is trying to find some way to counter the normalisation of the lies, the propaganda, governmental shrugging at the cost of living crisis, racism, corruption and authoritarianism in the here and now.


----------



## Ax^ (May 10, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> “This new European organization would allow democratic European nations adhering to our set of values to find a new space for political cooperation"  Good to see Macron align Johnson's government with the EU's set of values



apart from the problem of Johnson and his government not having any values

why would Europe set up any new system with the UK when they are currently in the process of tearing up the agreements they created on brexit


----------



## Ax^ (May 10, 2022)

steeplejack said:


> There are many grim consequences to be dealt as a result of Brexit for a few years yet economically and politically. We'll like be dead by the time any "benefit" - if that's ever to happen- percolates downward. Much more interesting is trying to find some way to counter the normalisation of the lies, the propaganda, governmental shrugging at the cost of living crisis, racism, corruption and authoritarianism in the here and now.




round up the current Tory administration and take the round the back and shoot them all would be the easiest solution


----------



## steeplejack (May 10, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> round up the current Tory administration and take the round the back and shoot them all would be the easiest solution


----------



## The39thStep (May 10, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> apart from the problem of Johnson and his government not having any values
> 
> why would Europe set up any new system with the UK when they are currently in the process of tearing up the agreements they created on brexit


You need to address these important questions to Macron directly.  I'm only acting as a go between for the benefit of remainers.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 10, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> You need to address these important questions to Macron directly.  I'm only acting as a go between for the benefit of remainers.


an _intermédiaire _if you will


----------



## The39thStep (May 10, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> an _intermédiaire _if you will


exactement


----------



## The39thStep (May 11, 2022)

and there you have it


----------



## sleaterkinney (May 11, 2022)

Then, after Starmer took the knife our of Theresa May’s back, he plunged it deep into Corbyn, a principled man. Is there a more evil centrist in British politics?


----------



## TopCat (May 11, 2022)

UK’s threat to Northern Ireland protocol is boost to Putin, say EU insiders
					

Brussels officials ‘flabbergasted’ at timing of statement, which risks undermining international alliance




					www.theguardian.com
				



Undermining the EU boosts Putin says anon EN remain types.


----------



## Ax^ (May 11, 2022)

the UK not going by its own brexit bill will undermine it links to the EU is another way of putting it


----------



## The39thStep (May 11, 2022)

TopCat said:


> UK’s threat to Northern Ireland protocol is boost to Putin, say EU insiders
> 
> 
> Brussels officials ‘flabbergasted’ at timing of statement, which risks undermining international alliance
> ...


Meanwhile EU to pay Hungary if it follows agreement over Russian oil sanctions


----------



## sleaterkinney (May 11, 2022)

TopCat said:


> UK’s threat to Northern Ireland protocol is boost to Putin, say EU insiders
> 
> 
> Brussels officials ‘flabbergasted’ at timing of statement, which risks undermining international alliance
> ...


That's why he backed Brexit.


----------



## contadino (May 11, 2022)

TopCat said:


> UK’s threat to Northern Ireland protocol is boost to Putin, say EU insiders
> 
> 
> Brussels officials ‘flabbergasted’ at timing of statement, which risks undermining international alliance
> ...


So explain how a trade war on Europe's other flank could be anything other than beneficial to Putin then, yer fucking donkey.


----------



## Raheem (May 11, 2022)

TopCat said:


> UK’s threat to Northern Ireland protocol is boost to Putin, say EU insiders
> 
> 
> Brussels officials ‘flabbergasted’ at timing of statement, which risks undermining international alliance
> ...


TBF, it wouldn't strengthen their hand to be fighting a trade war on two fronts.


----------



## Ax^ (May 11, 2022)

and quite sure threating the good Friday agreement will win them so many friends in the states


----------



## TopCat (May 11, 2022)

contadino said:


> So explain how a trade war on Europe's other flank could be anything other than beneficial to Putin then, yer fucking donkey.


Not going to bother engaging with you re the donkey remark.


----------



## contadino (May 11, 2022)

TopCat said:


> Not going to bother engaging with you re the donkey remark.


i.e. you have no answer.


----------



## brogdale (May 12, 2022)

ska invita said:


> The Truss thing is nonsense IMO, theyve been talking about tearing it up for months, from before they signed it really, and this most recent threat for a couple of weeks


Nonsense, yes...but a useful metric of the the ultra-Vermin desperation.

Difficult to discern how much of this dangerous nonsense is Truss grandstanding before the selectorate or actually the emerging Johnsonite GE strategy to reignite the electoral magic of Brexit division. Blame the foreign bogeyman and cast their opponents as quislings for not joining the inflammatory charade.


----------



## bimble (May 12, 2022)

brogdale said:


> Nonsense, yes...but a useful metric of the the ultra-Vermin desperation.
> 
> Difficult to discern how much of this dangerous nonsense is Truss grandstanding before the selectorate or actually the emerging Johnsonite GE strategy to reignite the electoral magic of Brexit division. Blame the foreign bogeyman and cast their opponents as quislings for not joining the inflammatory charade.


Yep. I think it’s mostly the latter but I think it will fail. They’ve got nothing else apart from a repeat performance (vote for us patriots cos we did brexit) and last time that made sense, there was still energy and optimism and anger about it, but now  it’s just pathetic.


----------



## TopCat (May 12, 2022)

Sinn Féin’s victory won’t bring a united Ireland right away – but it’s getting closer | Fintan O'Toole
					

Brexit is helping to deliver the sense of an ending for Northern Ireland as we know it, says the Irish Times columnist Fintan O’Toole




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## philosophical (May 12, 2022)

I find it rather ironic that before the vote to leave Ireland was more united than it seems to be now.
There was no mention on the voting slip that Northern Ireland would be treated differently after the result, any more than there was mention that Leicestershire would be treated differently.
One thing that sickens me is leave voters retrospectively trying to justify their nastiness by trying to kid themselves and others that their leave vote was really a secret step along the road to Irish reunification.
In my view their vote to leave was a deliberate action, and implicit in that vote was an action to fuck things up in Ireland.
At the time of the referendum there was no particular thrust for reunification, but there was plenty of excitement about borders and controlling them.


----------



## _Russ_ (May 12, 2022)

TopCat said:


> Sinn Féin’s victory won’t bring a united Ireland right away – but it’s getting closer | Fintan O'Toole
> 
> 
> Brexit is helping to deliver the sense of an ending for Northern Ireland as we know it, says the Irish Times columnist Fintan O’Toole
> ...


To take just one quote out of that piece (theres plenty more I could point to)


> But Northern Ireland has never been normal. It was created to ensure one overwhelming imperative: to allow as many Protestants as possible to stay in the UK and exclude themselves from the emerging Irish state.


To me this shows partly why the very title given to the piece is disingenuous.
The comment itself may be completely true but it reveals the true feelings of one side towards the other. (works both ways of course)
I make no comment on whether either side should throw away the past, but Im pretty sure they can't


----------



## TopCat (May 12, 2022)

philosophical said:


> I find it rather ironic that before the vote to leave Ireland was more united than it seems to be now.
> There was no mention on the voting slip that Northern Ireland would be treated differently after the result, any more than there was mention that Leicestershire would be treated differently.
> One thing that sickens me is leave voters retrospectively trying to justify their nastiness by trying to kid themselves and others that their leave vote was really a secret step along the road to Irish reunification.
> In my view their vote to leave was a deliberate action, and implicit in that vote was an action to fuck things up in Ireland.
> At the time of the referendum there was no particular thrust for reunification, but there was plenty of excitement about borders and controlling them.


Ireland will be united and you can wander around the Catford shopping centre muttering. It will be fab.


----------



## brogdale (May 12, 2022)

bimble said:


> Yep. I think it’s mostly the latter but I think it will fail. They’ve got nothing else apart from a repeat performance (vote for us patriots cos we did brexit) and last time that made sense, there was still energy and optimism and anger about it, but now  it’s just pathetic.


Listening to this leads me to believe that the die may have been set for GE 2023...


----------



## Pickman's model (May 12, 2022)

_Russ_ said:


> To take just one quote out of that piece (theres plenty more I could point to)
> 
> To me this shows partly why the very title given to the piece is disingenuous.
> The comment itself may be completely true but it reveals the true feelings of one side towards the other. (works both ways of course)
> I make no comment on whether either side should throw away the past, but Im pretty sure they can't


No one can throw away the past


----------



## philosophical (May 12, 2022)

TopCat said:


> Ireland will be united and you can wander around the Catford shopping centre muttering. It will be fab.


You come across to me as constantly disingenuous.
If I remember correctly you voted leave.
You had no idea how that would manifest itself on the land border between the EU and the UK.
Once you realised you deliberately* voted to fuck things up in Ireland, you pretend you voted leave to get a United Ireland.
I mention it occasionally, and your only response is an allusion to me being a muttering old man in Catford.
Yeah, not only a doublethinking disingenuous leave voter with a self congratulatory sense of superiority over me, but someone who simply struggles to come to terms with the fact you deliberately* fucked things up.

*Going to a polling station, and marking a ballot paper is a deliberate act.


----------



## Smangus (May 12, 2022)

philosophical said:


> I mention it occasionally, and your only response is an allusion to me being a muttering old man in Catford.



Nothing wrong with being a muttering old man in  Catford, 

- shambles off  grumbling and shaking fist in the direction of The Ninth Life.......


----------



## TopCat (May 12, 2022)

philosophical said:


> You come across to me as constantly disingenuous.
> If I remember correctly you voted leave.
> You had no idea how that would manifest itself on the land border between the EU and the UK.
> Once you realised you deliberately* voted to fuck things up in Ireland, you pretend you voted leave to get a United Ireland.
> ...


We made it better. You just can’t adjust


----------



## Ax^ (May 12, 2022)

_Russ_ said:


> )
> 
> To me this shows partly why the very title given to the piece is disingenuous.
> The comment itself may be completely true but it reveals the true feelings of one side towards the other. (works both ways of course)
> I make no comment on whether either side should throw away the past, but Im pretty sure they can't




it the party of the Orangemen that is holding the north to ransom ATM cannot see that they are slowly passing into obscurity due to their own bullshite

hopefully going against what the population of North Ireland voted for speeds up the process


----------



## _Russ_ (May 12, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> it the party of the Orangemen that is holding the north to ransom ATM cannot see that they are slowly passing into obscurity due to their own bullshite
> 
> hopefully going against what the population of North Ireland voted for speeds up the process


Your attitude illustrates the problem perfectly,.
Power sharing doesnt work very well and I dont have any answers,  but Im a realist and in a Land with so much real hate and mistrust of the other side, having one side with most of the power is never going to work for long.
Pretending either side winning this power will be some sort of shining new beginning is naive


----------



## Ax^ (May 12, 2022)

the DUP lost seats to the alliance party not to Sinn fein, a party better suited to the future of North Ireland not the  orange men headbangers in the DUP


----------



## Pickman's model (May 12, 2022)

_Russ_ said:


> Your attitude illustrates the problem perfectly,.
> Power sharing doesnt work very well and I dont have any answers,  but Im a realist and in a Land with so much real hate and mistrust of the other side, having one side with most of the power is never going to work for long.
> Pretending either side winning this power will be some sort of shining new beginning is naive


every end is a new beginning
--intergalactic lovers, 'obstinate heart'


----------



## philosophical (May 12, 2022)

TopCat said:


> We made it better. You just can’t adjust



You made it worse. You can’t accept it.


----------



## Artaxerxes (May 12, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> the DUP lost seats to the alliance party not to Sinn fein, a party better suited to the future of North Ireland not the  orange men headbangers in the DUP




This. Larger portions of the Norn electorate supported the don’t care or the pro union side even though Sinn Fein is the largest party 

We don’t know the future of Norn but it’s not going to join Ireland overnight as part of some mythic brexit vote. The DUP have just shafted themselves to oblivion thanks to doubling down on the hard brexit now rhetoric and supping at the American religious evangelical teat. Your day to day voter just wants the bins taken out and by all accounts easy access to the Republic so they can go to work - a choice that was removed from them by brexit and the fighting over the protocol


----------



## Pickman's model (May 12, 2022)

Artaxerxes said:


> This. Larger portions of the Norn electorate supported the don’t care or the pro union side even though Sinn Fein is the largest party
> 
> We don’t know the future of Norn but it’s not going to join Ireland overnight as part of some mythic brexit vote. The DUP have just shafted themselves to oblivion thanks to doubling down on the hard brexit now rhetoric and supping at the American religious evangelical teat. Your day to day voter just wants the bins taken out and by all accounts easy access to the Republic so they can go to work - a choice that was removed from them by brexit and the fighting over the protocol


there needs to be a positive proposal for a future 32 county republic, be it the venerable _eire nua_ or some new invention. just shovelling 6 into 26 won't produce a state which would attract


----------



## brogdale (May 14, 2022)




----------



## T & P (May 15, 2022)

FWIW I thought it was a welcome and overdue vote trend change at this year’s Eurovision from citizens and judges alike regarding the UK. Some of the nul points of the last few years were clearly politically motivated, but perhaps the Ukraine conflict has channelled people’s animosity towards a bigger villain. 

But it’s still fucking laughable to try to spin this year’s result as a vindication of Brexit in the Continent. Brexit cheerleaders often  make even the likes of Donald Trump’s batshit claims look plausible by comparison.


----------



## krtek a houby (May 15, 2022)

Fuck the begrudgers. Brexit WILL deliver a united, inclusive Ireland.


----------



## Raheem (May 15, 2022)

T & P said:


> Some of the nul points of the last few years were clearly politically motivated


Bollocks. Unless not voting for a load of old shit counts as political.


----------



## ska invita (May 15, 2022)

T & P said:


> Some of the nul points of the last few years were clearly politically motivated,


i disagree, uk entrys of recent times have been dire - totally nil point worthy


----------



## gosub (May 15, 2022)

Fingers crossed that Ukraine is in fit state to host a couple of thousand of the continent's campest people but its got fuck all to do with Brexit, you could just as easlily link it to Blackcuurant Tango and bet Sebastian still hasn't withdrawn his complaint


----------



## High Voltage (May 15, 2022)

Hang on. Do we still have to have the bloody Eurovision song contest? FFS


----------



## TopCat (May 15, 2022)

This very very funny








						Cambridge spies and Brexiters have a lot in common
					

As Simon Kuper points out in his excellent book, both groups betrayed us to Moscow – but the former did it deliberately




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## two sheds (May 15, 2022)

Raheem said:


> Bollocks. Unless not voting for a load of old shit counts as political.


Not that I've ever watched it but I thought a load of old shit was what was generally performed


----------



## Pickman's model (May 15, 2022)

gosub said:


> Fingers crossed that Ukraine is in fit state to host a couple of thousand of the continent's campest people but its got fuck all to do with Brexit, you could just as easlily link it to Blackcuurant Tango and bet Sebastian still hasn't withdrawn his complaint


If they're unable to host then it will devolve on the UK as runners up


----------



## Ax^ (May 15, 2022)

T & P said:


> FWIW I thought it was a welcome and overdue vote trend change at this year’s Eurovision from citizens and judges alike regarding the UK. Some of the nul points of the last few years were clearly politically motivated, but perhaps the Ukraine conflict has channelled people’s animosity towards a bigger villain.
> 
> But it’s still fucking laughable to try to spin this year’s result as a vindication of Brexit in the Continent. Brexit cheerleaders often  make even the likes of Donald Trump’s batshit claims look plausible by comparison.



do we finally have a benefit of brexit to report coming second in Eurovision

 it a brave new dawn lads I must admit I had my concerns but worked out in the end


----------



## teqniq (May 15, 2022)

Hahaha:


----------



## Ax^ (May 15, 2022)

krtek a houby said:


> Fuck the begrudgers. Brexit WILL deliver a united, inclusive Ireland.



aye and we stragically plan not to win the eurovision after it almost bankrupted the republic in the 90's

*shakes fst at sky


----------



## Ax^ (May 15, 2022)

teqniq said:


> Hahaha:




fuck me they be saying it vindicates Boris johnson of partygate next


----------



## krtek a houby (May 15, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> aye and we stragically plan not to win the eurovision after it almost bankrupted the republic in the 90's
> 
> *shakes fst at sky


Did it, though? 


Surely Riverdance going global balanced it all out.


----------



## two sheds (May 15, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> aye and we stragically plan not to win the eurovision after it almost bankrupted the republic in the 90's
> 
> *shakes fst at sky


wasn't that just in a Father Ted episode?


----------



## Ax^ (May 15, 2022)

you just don't remember the damage this song caused


----------



## two sheds (May 15, 2022)

The highlights I've seen of Eurovision that would be up there in the top 5 most years.


----------



## iveivan (May 15, 2022)

teqniq said:


> Hahaha:



I guess that makes it all worthwhile to have left then.

Why did we get null points last year, after we had left?

Isn’t the second place actually because the singer is popular on social media in EU?


----------



## philosophical (May 15, 2022)

krtek a houby said:


> Fuck the begrudgers. Brexit WILL deliver a united, inclusive Ireland.



Do you think this will happen with or without bloodshed?


----------



## krtek a houby (May 15, 2022)

philosophical said:


> Do you think this will happen with or without bloodshed?


Hopefully the latterr. Obviously.


----------



## philosophical (May 15, 2022)

krtek a houby said:


> Hopefully the latterr. Obviously.



I share the same hope, but I fear the reality will be different.


----------



## krtek a houby (May 15, 2022)

philosophical said:


> I share the same hope, but I fear the reality will be different.



Maybe, maybe not. Don't think there's the stomach for a return to war.


----------



## gosub (May 15, 2022)

teqniq said:


> Hahaha:



Get my car back this week (with digital radio) really won't miss radio 2 daytime apart from popmaster


----------



## teqniq (May 16, 2022)

Not seen this before (it's from 2020 - the lower tweet) what a fucking state:


----------



## flypanam (May 16, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> you just don't remember the damage this song caused



And this beauty


----------



## Artaxerxes (May 17, 2022)




----------



## Artaxerxes (May 17, 2022)

Hurray?


----------



## Ax^ (May 17, 2022)

making themself look like untrustworthy fuckwits on an international scale surely another stunning victory for the Tory party


----------



## TopCat (May 18, 2022)

I think Ralph has shot his load. 
"the sadomasochistic compulsion to be oppressed by foreigners for fear of taking responsibility for the consequences of liberation.".


----------



## Ranbay (May 18, 2022)

A Guy i work with just admitted he was an idiot for voting Brexit and was purely swung by the 350m for the NHS, it's taken him till today to say this  we have had the odd chat about often, but he's final admitted it was all lies.


----------



## Ranbay (May 18, 2022)

Microsoft Forms
					






					forms.office.com
				




Just filled this in


----------



## Ranbay (May 18, 2022)

Hello, my name is Paweł Borowski, I am studying International Business on University of Economics in Wrocław (Poland). I am writing my Master’s thesis about the impact that Brexit have had on the society.

Below you can find an anonymous survey that is designed to investigate UK’s inhabitants opinions on "Brexit". It should not take more than 7 minutes. The information obtained via the form below is confidential and will be used for the purposes of the master's thesis only. 

Thank you for your time and contribution. It is very appreciated!


----------



## Smokeandsteam (May 18, 2022)

Ranbay said:


> A Guy i work with just admitted he was an idiot for voting Brexit and was purely swung by the 350m for the NHS, it's taken him till today to say this  we have had the odd chat about often, but he's final admitted it was all lies.



There was a bloke in a pub I used to use who constantly bored me to death about bands he liked. In the end I pretended to agree with him about his fucking awful views just to stop the droning noise.


----------



## Artaxerxes (May 18, 2022)

Taking back control









						EA chief: DEFRA ‘told us not to enforce farm water rules’
					

The government told the Environment Agency not to enforce new farm rules designed to protect water bodies from fertiliser pollution, the regulator’s chief executive told MPs yesterday.




					www.endsreport.com
				












						Brexit has increased risk of dangerous foods reaching UK, watchdog warns
					

Food Standards Agency is shut out of EU’s ’rapid alert system’ – and faces huge extra costs to build alternative defences




					www.independent.co.uk


----------



## Ax^ (May 18, 2022)

the whole north ireland reworking of the protocol is aside from pleasing the orangemen

preparing for a drop in food standands in the near future


----------



## contadino (May 18, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> the whole north ireland reworking of the protocol is aside from pleasing the orangemen
> 
> preparing for a drop in food standands in the near future


The drop in standards is a given for us poor saps. That's what we voted for. Along with shitty rivers, decimated worker and consumer rights, etc...

What they're angling for is a back door into the European single market. Oh if only Theresa May hadn't pre-warned the EU about that in 2017's Lancaster House speech. It would've been an oven ready stitch up if it weren't for that.


----------



## MrSki (May 21, 2022)

One day there will be a benefit to Brexit but not yet.


----------



## Artaxerxes (May 21, 2022)




----------



## The39thStep (May 21, 2022)

I realise that I will be in a minority on these boards but I'll put my cards on the table and say I'm totally against cheap labour to fill supermarket shelves or indeed to appease the Daily Mail supporters on here.









						Germany fears seasonal labour shortages as Ukraine war rages on
					

This year, labour supply bottlenecks could become a problem due to the Ukraine war and the ongoing pandemic, and while the German Farmers' Association (DBV) calls for the rules to be relaxed, critics argue deeper issues remain.




					www.euractiv.com


----------



## Ax^ (May 21, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> I realise that I will be in a minority on these boards but I'll put my cards on the table and say I'm totally against cheap labour to fill supermarket shelves or indeed to appease the Daily Mail supporters on here.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



ok i'm against cheap labour as well

so i would've  raise the wages


----------



## Ax^ (May 21, 2022)

before expecting english people to fill the remaing positions

at the moment the drive is to force people to work
but whatever means possible 


but i guess thats a benift of brexit


----------



## Artaxerxes (May 21, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> ok i'm against cheap labour as well
> 
> so i would've  raise the wages



Yes I’m not arguing for modern slavery that is farming and the import of cheap labourers on a seasonal basis.


The Mail campaigned to tell the migrants to fuck off and well well if it isn’t the consequences of their own actions. 

Pay people a living wage, give em decent conditions but that’s not what the Mail will be asking for


----------



## teqniq (May 22, 2022)

Nothing to do with Brexit... oh no....









						Disaster charity drafted in to rescue lorry drivers stuck in post-Brexit queues
					

RE:ACT Disaster Response has agreed a £180,000 six-month contract with Kent County Council to ease stuck truckers’ nightmare waits to board ferries and Eurotunnel shuttles




					www.mirror.co.uk


----------



## gosub (May 22, 2022)

MrSki said:


> One day there will be a benefit to Brexit but not yet.






Artaxerxes said:


> Yes I’m not arguing for modern slavery that is farming and the import of cheap labourers on a seasonal basis.
> 
> 
> The Mail campaigned to tell the migrants to fuck off and well well if it isn’t the consequences of their own actions.
> ...


No modern slavery is modern slavery 40 million people according to UN (more than were ever shipped across the Atlantic in Georgian times) some of those 40 million will be in agriculture granted others will be doing stuff Cockneys used to regard as a holiday


----------



## TopCat (May 23, 2022)

gosub said:


> others will be doing stuff Cockneys used to regard as a holiday


Arrogant fucker.


----------



## gosub (May 23, 2022)

TopCat said:


> Arrogant fucker.


What? For knowing history?


----------



## Pickman's model (May 23, 2022)

gosub said:


> What? For knowing history?


what puzzles me about most about your 10420 is the bit about more than were ever shipped across the atlantic in georgian times, like that meant something. why georgian times? why not from 1562, the date of hawkins' first slaving expedition, to 1833? or the period of spanish and portuguese slaving? what's so special about 1714-1830?


----------



## brogdale (May 23, 2022)

Shit just got real


----------



## 8ball (May 23, 2022)

brogdale said:


> Shit just got real
> 
> View attachment 323860



Cans be fine.


----------



## brogdale (May 23, 2022)

8ball said:


> Cans be fine.


1698 & Finger don't come in cans


----------



## Raheem (May 23, 2022)

Just cup your hands.


----------



## 8ball (May 23, 2022)

brogdale said:


> 1698 & Finger don't come in cans



They can be put in cans.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (May 23, 2022)

brogdale said:


> 1698 & Finger don't come in cans




If Brexit upsets the weird beard real ale bores then all the pain and hassle has been well worth while.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (May 23, 2022)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> If Brexit upsets the weird beard real ale bores then all the pain and hassle has been well worth while.



the serious weird beard real ale bores won't drink bottled beer...


----------



## krtek a houby (May 23, 2022)

This is all very "owning the libs" though. British ales and beers are something to admire and cherish and yes, be passionate about.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (May 23, 2022)

krtek a houby said:


> This is all very "owning the libs" though. British ales and beers are something to admire and cherish and yes, be passionate about.




Horrible muck. Like a nice, cool lager myself.


----------



## brogdale (May 23, 2022)

This thread gets worse.


----------



## TopCat (May 24, 2022)

Well it bugged me that when we were in the EU one could not tell if a lager had been brewed in the UK under licence (and brewed down to a price point of shite), it would say brewed in the EU. Now I just pick lager brewed in the EU, always been better quality if not brewed here.


----------



## gosub (May 24, 2022)

brogdale said:


> Shit just got real
> 
> View attachment 323860


Actually thats more a Ukraine thing than a Brexit one


----------



## Pickman's model (May 24, 2022)

gosub said:


> Actually thats more a Ukraine thing than a Brexit one


and you say this because...

it's my understanding that there was no 'ukraine thing' in january yet









						UK on Brink of Beer Bottle Shortage Amid Rising Costs, Warns Wholesaler
					

The UK is on the brink of a bottled beer shortage as stocks of glassware plummet and production costs soar, a leading Scottish wholesaler has warned.




					www.bloomberg.com
				




in germany they're blaming energy and difficulties maintaining supplies because of a lack of lorry drivers Germany beer bottle shortage: Industry warns of 'tense' situation

have you any of your actual evidence to support your ukraine claim, seems to me you regularly assert rather more than you can actually deliver and i think this is another of those occasions


----------



## MrSki (May 24, 2022)

Not just musicians being fucked about.



ETA copy of tweet


----------



## MrSki (May 24, 2022)




----------



## Raheem (May 24, 2022)

MrSki said:


> Not just musicians being fucked about.



Oh no! Poor Jon!


----------



## krtek a houby (May 25, 2022)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Horrible muck. Like a nice, cool lager myself.



Lager's great. Mid 20s yesterday, so a few of them went down well.

But British ales are ace. Missing them.


----------



## krtek a houby (May 25, 2022)

MrSki said:


>


 Some justified gloating from Scotland and Ireland, there


----------



## The39thStep (May 25, 2022)

MrSki said:


> Not just musicians being fucked about.
> 
> 
> 
> ETA copy of tweet



will no one think of former Channel 4 news presenters who were only being paid £1m a year ?


----------



## Pickman's model (May 25, 2022)

krtek a houby said:


> Some justified gloating from Scotland and Ireland, there


Scotland sadly being laid low by brexit


----------



## gosub (May 25, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> will no one think of former Channel 4 news presenters who were only being paid £1m a year ?


+ socks on expenses


----------



## TopCat (May 25, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> will no one think of former Channel 4 news presenters who were only being paid £1m a year ?


Struggling, no runners, no PA.


----------



## The39thStep (May 25, 2022)

TopCat said:


> Struggling, no runners, no PA.


What gets me is that there are loads of things to have a go at re the Tories about how they implemented the decision of the referendum, but cases like this and others desperately dredged up just don't cut the mustard and are open to ridicule.


----------



## Ax^ (May 25, 2022)

aye it's like asking someone for the benifits of brexit


----------



## Duncan2 (May 25, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> What gets me is that there are loads of things to have a go at re the Tories about how they implemented the decision of the referendum, but cases like this and others desperately dredged up just don't cut the mustard and are open to ridicule.


sums up the thread tbh.


----------



## Artaxerxes (May 27, 2022)




----------



## spitfire (May 29, 2022)

I have discovered a benefit of Brexit. 

1 litre of Absolut on the ferry between Holyhead and Dublin is €18 duty free. 

Sigh me up Nigel. I am going over to the darkside. 

#remoanernomore


----------



## brogdale (May 29, 2022)

Bit slow on the uptake is the fragrant Nat...


----------



## Raheem (May 29, 2022)

.


----------



## The39thStep (May 31, 2022)




----------



## Doctor Carrot (May 31, 2022)

The39thStep said:


>



Twitter really is a bag o shite isn't it? I'm glad I gave it a wide berth. In real life you just don't hear the kind of bollocks that people of all stripes spout on there.


----------



## ska invita (May 31, 2022)

Doctor Carrot said:


> Twitter really is a bag o shite isn't it? I'm glad I gave it a wide berth. In real life you just don't hear the kind of bollocks that people of all stripes spout on there.


you can choose who to follow tbf 
im more impressed 39 found this tweet!


----------



## xenon (May 31, 2022)

Doctor Carrot said:


> Twitter really is a bag o shite isn't it? I'm glad I gave it a wide berth. In real life you just don't hear the kind of bollocks that people of all stripes spout on there.



TBF there is a connection. Just not one the tweeter means.

All those things demonstrate an abundance of self serving mendacity.


----------



## gosub (May 31, 2022)

The39thStep said:


>



AS football issues seems a bit worse things happen at sea especially in relation to some of the football related stuff that happened whilst we were in EUrope


----------



## Pickman's model (May 31, 2022)

gosub said:


> AS football issues seems a bit worse things happen at sea especially in relation to some of the football related stuff that happened whilst we were in EUrope


you seem to be missing a word or two here


----------



## Yossarian (May 31, 2022)




----------



## Boris Sprinkler (May 31, 2022)

Yossarian said:


> View attachment 324879


this is exactly the kind of nonsense Trump was pulling with flushing toilet capacity.


----------



## bimble (May 31, 2022)

I’ve found the list! Hoovers is a high point.
It’s supposed to be rees mogg’s favourites from the replies to his appeal for ideas from his adoring public whenever that stunt was months ago in the daily mail or whatever.
Pitiful embarrassing wankery all round.


----------



## 8ball (May 31, 2022)

bimble said:


> I’ve found the list! Hoovers is a high point.
> It’s supposed to be rees mogg’s favourites from the replies to his appeal for ideas from his adoring public whenever that stunt was months ago in the daily mail or whatever.
> Pitiful embarrassing wankery all round.View attachment 324883



I think no.6 has been under discussion for some time.

The "experimental treatments on seriously ill patients" could have some merits.
The vacuum cleaner thing is bollocks - it was to address manufacturers who would just put a bigger motor in an inefficiently designed cleaner, making 'air watts' the standard measure.

The PAT testing thing is interesting - a lot of it is pretty pointless, but obv not all.


----------



## contadino (May 31, 2022)

With the notable exception of number 8, they all make the UK a more unpleasant and dangerous place to live.


----------



## A380 (May 31, 2022)

contadino said:


> With the notable exception of number 8, they all make the UK a more unpleasant and dangerous place to live.


Nah. Whilst I hate Mogg and am a staunch remainer, I quite fancy joining up the benefits of 2 and 5 and start going round nicking kids ice creams silently...


----------



## 8ball (May 31, 2022)

contadino said:


> With the notable exception of number 8, they all make the UK a more unpleasant and dangerous place to live.



2, 6 and 9 are arguable.  Though it's the Tories, so would likely be implemented in such a manner.


----------



## bimble (May 31, 2022)

8ball said:


> The PAT testing thing is interesting


Interesting is in the eye of the beholder I suppose.


----------



## A380 (May 31, 2022)

bimble said:


> Interesting is in the eye of the beholder I suppose.


Shocking thing to say.


----------



## 8ball (May 31, 2022)

bimble said:


> Interesting is in the eye of the beholder I suppose.



Practically no office spaces have been compliant since the point people started bringing their own phone chargers to work anyway.


----------



## bimble (May 31, 2022)

8ball said:


> Practically no office spaces have been compliant since the point people started bringing their own phone chargers to work anyway.


oh i see! I had no idea what it was talking about tbh. So currently workplaces are meant to safety check every phone charger that enters their buildings? Will be great when that stops happening thanks to brexit yeah.


----------



## 8ball (May 31, 2022)

bimble said:


> oh i see! I had no idea what it was talking about tbh. So currently workplaces are meant to safety check every phone charger that enters their buildings? Will be great when that stops happening thanks to brexit yeah.



It's not going to stop happening thanks to Brexit.
It would have to start happening first.


----------



## T & P (May 31, 2022)

Whether they want to admit it publicly or not, a significant proportion of all left wingers who voted to leave in 2016 must surely be feeling like right muppets by now? If not, they fucking ought to anyway.


----------



## contadino (May 31, 2022)

8ball said:


> 2, 6 and 9 are arguable.  Though it's the Tories, so would likely be implemented in such a manner.


2 = noisier, less efficient vacuum cleaners, plus on the off-chance anyone makes a vacuum for the UK market, they won't be able to sell it in europe
6 = increased risk of medical errors.
9 = increased risk of electrical faults, including chance of fires.


----------



## Doctor Carrot (May 31, 2022)

The ebike ruling is completely and utterly worthless. If I remember correctly anything over 15mph requires a motorbike license and insurance in the UK. Of course that doesn't stop people powering about on all sorts of electrical wheels but the fact they put that in there as a win shows how pathetic that list is.


----------



## 8ball (May 31, 2022)

contadino said:


> 2 = noisier, less efficient vacuum cleaners, plus on the off-chance anyone makes a vacuum for the UK market, they won't be able to sell it in europe
> 6 = increased risk of medical errors.
> 9 = increased risk of electrical faults, including chance of fires.



None of those (aside from potentially not being able to sell certain hoovers in Europe) are necessary causes of any of those things unless you add a bunch of assumptions.


----------



## Doctor Carrot (May 31, 2022)

T & P said:


> Whether they want to admit it publicly or not, a significant proportion of all left wingers who voted to leave in 2016 must surely be feeling like right muppets by now? If not, they fucking ought to anyway.


Of course not. Leave is good praxis don't you know? Capitalism is on its knees!


----------



## two sheds (May 31, 2022)

contadino said:


> With the notable exception of number 8, they all make the UK a more unpleasant and dangerous place to live.


and you'd think that'll be useless since companies will already calculate it using (for example) spreadsheets.


----------



## contadino (May 31, 2022)

8ball said:


> None of those (aside from potentially not being able to sell certain hoovers in Europe) are necessary causes of any of those things unless you add a bunch of assumptions.


Are you muddling cause and effect?

For a country still coming to terms with a horrendous electrical fire, I'd suggest the last thing we should be doing is reducing the need for testing of electrical appliances. I'd have thought we actually need more of it.


----------



## 8ball (May 31, 2022)

contadino said:


> Are you muddling cause and effect?
> 
> For a country still coming to terms with a horrendous electrical fire, I'd suggest the last thing we should be doing is reducing the need for testing of electrical appliances. I'd have thought we actually need more of it.



Which particular electrical fire are you talking about?

If you mean Grenfell, then PAT testing wouldn't seem relevant.


----------



## bimble (May 31, 2022)

anyhow that list is just load more stupid noise,  it is not a list of things that are happening or even intended to happen or draft legislation or back of a beermat or anything, its just the latest attempt at 'we could do all this IF we wanted to now, cos freedom'. 
Given that, it's even more laughably shit as an 'interesting ideas' list.


----------



## 8ball (May 31, 2022)

bimble said:


> anyhow that list is just load more stupid noise,  it is not a list of things that are happening or even intended to happen or draft legislation or back of a beermat or anything, its just the latest attempt at 'we could do all this IF we wanted to now, cos freedom'.



SOVNTY!!!


----------



## Raheem (May 31, 2022)

To be fair to jrm, Urban had a thread for compiling the benefits of the great heave-ho, and I don't think we came up with any of those.


----------



## bimble (May 31, 2022)

Raheem said:


> To be fair to jrm, Urban had a thread for compiling the benefits of the great heave-ho, and I don't think we came up with any of those.


True. They should have made me The Minister for Brexit Opportunities though, would have achieved about the same as he has in the past year.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 31, 2022)

Raheem said:


> To be fair to jrm, Urban had a thread for compiling the benefits of the great heave-ho, and I don't think we came up with any of those.


why would you want to be fair to jrm?


----------



## A380 (May 31, 2022)

T & P said:


> Whether they want to admit it publicly or not, a significant proportion of all left wingers who voted to leave in 2016 must surely be feeling like right muppets by now? If not, they fucking ought to anyway.


No. Because the UK was sleazed out of the EU socialism is just weeks away now. 

Taps watch….


----------



## bimble (May 31, 2022)

Just tried to find out what goes on in the Ministry For Brexit Opportunities and learned only that this job, to head up the show, for £120,000 a year, was only just filled last month. 








						Cabinet Office offers £120k for Brexit Opportunities Unit director
					

David Frost specifies “visionary, inventive and dedicated leader” to challenge policy and produce “creative new initiatives”




					www.civilserviceworld.com


----------



## Raheem (May 31, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> why would you want to be fair to jrm?


So that he feels betrayed on top of everything else on his walk to the scaffold.


----------



## The39thStep (May 31, 2022)

bimble said:


> Just tried to find out what goes on in the Ministry For Brexit Opportunities and learned only that this job, to head up the show, for £120,000 a year, was only just filled last month.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yup, I start in two weeks . Working from home.


----------



## A380 (May 31, 2022)




----------



## xenon (May 31, 2022)

8ball said:


> Practically no office spaces have been compliant since the point people started bringing their own phone chargers to work anyway.



Or working from home.


----------



## Elpenor (May 31, 2022)

contadino said:


> With the notable exception of number 8, they all make the UK a more unpleasant and dangerous place to live.


8 would clearly be a way to reduce holiday entitlement for agency staff and not a Good Thing


----------



## Raheem (May 31, 2022)

Elpenor said:


> 8 would clearly be a way to reduce holiday entitlement for agency staff and not a Good Thing


Certainly, you can guarantee that any way in which calculating holidays is supposedly "complicated" exists for a reason.


----------



## gosub (Jun 1, 2022)

Yossarian said:


> View attachment 324879


Do you think Rees-Mogg has ever met the cleaners at the Brexit Dept ?  Or are they the only ones helping him with his homework


----------



## TopCat (Jun 1, 2022)

The39thStep said:


>



Whata cunt.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 3, 2022)

Waitrose, the Remainers supermarket of choice, is  now a battle ground  for Boris Johnson 









						‘I’m at an impasse’: can Boris Johnson win over the ‘Waitrose woman’?
					

Shoppers at one branch of the upmarket supermarket have a mixed bag of views on the PM




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## spitfire (Jun 3, 2022)

Just scored another bottle of absolut for €18 on the way back. Thanks brexiteers.


----------



## Yossarian (Jun 3, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Waitrose, the Remainers supermarket of choice, is  now a battle ground  for Boris Johnson
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Co-op is the most Remain supermarket, according to YouGov - the most Remain supermarket is a Co-op in Lambeth, while the most Brexity is an Iceland in Boston. 

_"With a customer base of 52% Leave voters and 48% Remain voters, Lidl’s customer base is closest to that of the voting public"_









						Revealed: the most Brexity supermarket branch in the country | YouGov
					

New YouGov data shows that the Boston branch of Iceland and four Co-Op Food stores in Lambeth are the most pro-Leave pro-Remain supermarkets in Britain




					yougov.co.uk


----------



## 8ball (Jun 3, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Waitrose, the Remainers supermarket of choice, is  now a battle ground  for Boris Johnson
> 
> 
> 
> ...



There is a reference one of the women makes toward the end about "Waitrose man". 
I've no idea what she's going on about.

_"She questions the term “Waitrose woman”, adding: “It could be a Waitrose man, the way the future’s going. Maybe that’s what he should be thinking about.”_


----------



## two sheds (Jun 3, 2022)

I think I've seen "Waitrose woman" as being important to Johsnon as a target group. Not sure that helps though.


----------



## 8ball (Jun 3, 2022)

two sheds said:


> I think I've seen "Waitrose woman" as being important to Johsnon as a target group. Not sure that helps though.



One of the other women makes a very good point that maybe he should be less concerned with "Waitrose woman" and more concerned with people using food banks who cannot afford to heat their homes.


----------



## two sheds (Jun 3, 2022)

Not his voter profile unfortunately.


----------



## 8ball (Jun 3, 2022)

two sheds said:


> Not his voter profile unfortunately.



Oddly, the article talks about "Waitrose woman" having no interest in culture wars, then moves onto talking about Boris' attempt at connecting with women on Mumsnet.
It seems everyone is mixed up about demographics.


----------



## ska invita (Jun 4, 2022)

With polling like this 



And Tory MPs saying publicly the UK should rejoin the single market.... And the Irish border unresolved....I can't see Brexit as being resolved for good. Thread has legs yet!


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 4, 2022)

ska invita said:


> With polling like this
> 
> 
> 
> And Tory MPs saying publicly the UK should rejoin the single market.... And the Irish border unresolved....I can't see Brexit as being resolved for good. Thread has legs yet!



Vote Tory to rejoin the single market


----------



## ska invita (Jun 4, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Vote Tory to rejoin the single market


I can picture it down the line .. Remember even Johnson was Pro Remaining (until he saw the opportunity to use it to his personal advantage). I expect a significant number of Tories are 
Key point is Breggsit will rumble on for a long time yet


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 4, 2022)

ska invita said:


> I can picture it down the line .. Remember even Johnson was Pro Remaining (until he saw the opportunity to use it to his personal advantage). I expect a significant number of Tories are
> Key point is Breggsit will rumble on for a long time yet


To be honest it reminds me more of a poll where there is a majority that believe in UFOs and occasionally there is news of a distant indecipherable signal in outer space that briefly raises faint hopes and then disappears.


----------



## philosophical (Jun 4, 2022)

The word Brexit might need a better definition.
It is certainly not the same as leave, nor is it a definition of what was voted for.
To me the word Brexit means an almighty fuck up by morons, racists and selfish bastards, and as far as I can tell my definition is as valid as anybody else’s.
So when I hear the phrase ‘got Brexit done’ I interpret it as selfish racist morons fucking everything up.
What it most decidedly isn’t is what was on the ballot paper.


----------



## Ax^ (Jun 4, 2022)

ah well


----------



## BobDavis (Jun 4, 2022)

I notice the Express has now changed its position from benefits of brexit to betrayal of brexit. On the news today it was mentioned that in a recent poll 70% of leave voters stated they are unhappy with brexit. I don’t think they have turned into remainers they just believe they have been betrayed by this government. That the brexit they voted for has not been achieved.


----------



## Yossarian (Jun 4, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> ah well



"We're going to speak to our correspondent at Malaga Airport - Andrea, what are the British travellers stuck in the long passport queues doing?"

"They're glowering at foreigners, Bob."

"Ah. OK, now here's Sue with the weather..."


----------



## Raheem (Jun 4, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> ah well


"Other passengers fly through arrivals" doesn't sound like something to be envious of.


----------



## Maggot (Jun 8, 2022)

Brexit helping cause harmful increase in fake ecstasy, study warns
					

Covid and crackdowns also blamed as researchers find half of pills sold as MDMA at festivals in England contained none of the drug




					www.theguardian.com
				




Huge increase in 'MDMA' not actually containing any MDMA.

Athough TBF reading the article it sounds like the pandemic is more to blame than Brexit.


----------



## TopCat (Jun 8, 2022)

Maggot said:


> Brexit helping cause harmful increase in fake ecstasy, study warns
> 
> 
> Covid and crackdowns also blamed as researchers find half of pills sold as MDMA at festivals in England contained none of the drug
> ...


It's the lamest attempt thus far by the Grad to blame brexit for irrelevant stuff.


----------



## TopCat (Jun 8, 2022)

The report, led by The Loop, including researchers from Cardiff University and the University of Liverpool, says that dismantling criminal and dark web platforms may also have disrupted the availability of MDMA, and adds that the impact of Brexit, ranging from lorry driver shortages to fluctuations in currencies, probably played an important part.


----------



## gosub (Jun 8, 2022)

Rebel Tories Worry Brexit May Have Bounced Wavering MPs Into Saving Boris Johnson
					

Tory MPs who voted to oust Boris Johnson are split over how the result of the confidence vote was affected by a leading rebel calling for the UK to...




					www.politicshome.com


----------



## gosub (Jun 9, 2022)

Almost half of all pills sold at UK festivals last year contained no MDMA
					

You’ve been mugged off mate (apparently Brexit and Covid are to blame)




					www.dazeddigital.com


----------



## Cloo (Jun 9, 2022)

BobDavis said:


> I notice the Express has now changed its position from benefits of brexit to betrayal of brexit. On the news today it was mentioned that in a recent poll 70% of leave voters stated they are unhappy with brexit. I don’t think they have turned into remainers they just believe they have been betrayed by this government. That the brexit they voted for has not been achieved.


Unicorns in 'could not be rounded up and given to every citizen' shock


----------



## srb7677 (Jun 9, 2022)

Well Brexshit has demonstrated one thing. There never was any shortage of gammon here.

Those who voted for it form an hodge podge of a coalition.

Oldies seeing it as a way to vote for the 1950s, others glorying in the days of empire and thought we could be great again outside the EU. Some still seemed to think it was still 1940. There was the racist vote of course. And those fools who bought into the shit told by the tabloid press. And there were just those eager to give the establishment a good kicking.

The latter motive I can understand, though think people should pick their battles better.

And whilst not every Brexit voter is a racist, almost every racist is a Brexit supporter. And in view of the narrow margin of victory, it is an obvious truth that Brexit could never have been won without the racist vote, an obvious unwelcome truth that Brexiteers hate having pointed out to them.


----------



## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Jun 9, 2022)

srb7677 said:


> Well Brexshit has demonstrated one thing. There never was any shortage of gammon here.
> 
> Those who voted for it form an hodge podge of a coalition.
> 
> ...


Well indeed. 
And what is depressing is that this . . . . 


ska invita said:


> With polling like this
> 
> 
> 
> And Tory MPs saying publicly the UK should rejoin the single market.... And the Irish border unresolved....I can't see Brexit as being resolved for good. Thread has legs yet!



despite 'wrong' being on the up. . . it is still quite shocking that so many people, in the cold light of day, still think Brexit was right.


----------



## srb7677 (Jun 9, 2022)

ATOMIC SUPLEX said:


> Well indeed.
> And what is depressing is that this . . . .
> 
> despite 'wrong' being on the up. . . it is still quite shocking that so many people, in the cold light of day, still think Brexit was right.


I think the word "think" needs to be used advisedly in such cases. Many don't think. They emote. This should not be mistaken for any kind of logical thought process.


----------



## philosophical (Jun 9, 2022)

The one thing we know for certain is that people voted leave.
The guessed at motivations and demographics are interesting to contemplate, but the vote was baldly, simply, and coldly ‘leave’. For the whole of the UK.
That has not happened, one day those who go on about honouring the democratic vote will realise that there is a ‘democratic deficit’ and the referendum vote has not been honoured.


----------



## gosub (Jun 9, 2022)

ATOMIC SUPLEX said:


> Well indeed.
> And what is depressing is that this . . . .
> 
> despite 'wrong' being on the up. . . it is still quite shocking that so many people, in the cold light of day, still think Brexit was right.


Not this Brexit but it was a no brainer. On a different argument main stream media and politicians didn't want


----------



## srb7677 (Jun 9, 2022)

philosophical said:


> The one thing we know for certain is that people voted leave.
> The guessed at motivations and demographics are interesting to contemplate, but the vote was baldly, simply, and coldly ‘leave’. For the whole of the UK.
> That has not happened, one day those who go on about honouring the democratic vote will realise that there is a ‘democratic deficit’ and the referendum vote has not been honoured.


It was not with the support of the whole of the UK. 68 percent of Scots voted to Remain and were ignored.

And in what way has the vote not been honoured, by which I mean what more do you think needs to be done to honour it?

People were promised a have your cake and eat it outcome, all the benefits of membership without actual membership so all the freedoms of being outside too. This was always impossible, they might as well have been voting for rocket-propelled unicorns.


----------



## inva (Jun 9, 2022)

srb7677 said:


> And whilst not every Brexit voter is a racist, every racist is a Brexit supporter.


Always intrigued by the mystical purifying powers of the remain vote. Presumably David Cameron and Theresa May's (for example) support for remain at the time of the referendum means the hostile environment and go home van policies which preceded it aren't racist. Or is it that a remain supporter can act in racist ways but the way they voted renders them immune from being racist themselves? All you have to do is accept the EU into your heart


----------



## dessiato (Jun 9, 2022)

The courts of justice are about to give the verdict about the rights of EU citizenship which were stripped from us due to Brexit.






						CURIA - Streaming - Court of Justice of the European Union
					

Court of Justice of the European Union




					curia.europa.eu
				




thread here









						EU citizenship decision, live, now
					

For those of us who are negatively affected by Brexit, WRT our rights of move etc, the Court of Justice is about to deliver its ruling about our rights to EU citizenship having been stripped from us.  https://curia.europa.eu/jcms/jcms/p1_1477137/en/




					www.urban75.net


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jun 9, 2022)

We’ll be getting socialism, free of the EU shackles, any day now


----------



## dessiato (Jun 9, 2022)

Artaxerxes said:


> We’ll be getting socialism, free of the EU shackles, any day now


And pigs will fly


----------



## srb7677 (Jun 9, 2022)

inva said:


> Always intrigued by the mystical purifying powers of the remain vote. Presumably David Cameron and Theresa May's (for example) support for remain at the time of the referendum means the hostile environment and go home van policies which preceded it aren't racist. Or is it that a remain supporter can act in racist ways but the way they voted renders them immune from being racist themselves? All you have to do is accept the EU into your heart


Those with racist views who supported EU membership  are few in number. Most of the racists I know of saw Brexit as a means to keep all the bloody foreigners out.


----------



## philosophical (Jun 9, 2022)

srb7677 said:


> It was not with the support of the whole of the UK. 68 percent of Scots voted to Remain and were ignored.
> 
> And in what way has the vote not been honoured, by which I mean what more do you think needs to be done to honour it?
> 
> People were promised a have your cake and eat it outcome, all the benefits of membership without actual membership so all the freedoms of being outside too. This was always impossible, they might as well have been voting for rocket-propelled unicorns.


Let me make it clear I hate that the UK voted to leave the EU.
It hasn’t happened because Northern Ireland is being treated differently to the rest of the UK.


----------



## contadino (Jun 9, 2022)

inva said:


> Always intrigued by the mystical purifying powers of the remain vote. Presumably David Cameron and Theresa May's (for example) support for remain at the time of the referendum means the hostile environment and go home van policies which preceded it aren't racist. Or is it that a remain supporter can act in racist ways but the way they voted renders them immune from being racist themselves? All you have to do is accept the EU into your heart


Struggling to understand what you're saying.... Are you implying that because policies such as 'hostile environment' were implemented by May/Cameron (who apparently campaigned for remain), everyone who wanted to remain as part of the EU is a racist?


----------



## srb7677 (Jun 9, 2022)

philosophical said:


> Let me make it clear I hate that the UK voted to leave the EU.
> It hasn’t happened because Northern Ireland is being treated differently to the rest of the UK.


We know the reasons for that. Half the population there feels no allegience to the UK and don't want a land border with the Republic. There is a desire to avoid a return to the troubles. 

Trying to foce the issue actually risks driving Northern Ireland out of the uk. As well as playing fast and loose with peace itself.

The essential problem is that half the people owe their allegiance to Ireland, the other half to the UK. This is the impossible dilemma Brexit has thrown at our feet. A hard border between north and south appears to be unacceptable to many. The alternative of some sort of border in the Irish Sea is equally unacceptable to many others. How this circle is squared in the interests of peace is actually more important than a united UK, particularly in view of the large Scottish Remain vote being ignored resulting in an independent Scotland coming ever nearer anyway.

One of the rotten fruits of Brexit is going to be the break up of the UK.


----------



## srb7677 (Jun 9, 2022)

contadino said:


> Struggling to understand what you're saying.... Are you implying that because policies such as 'hostile environment' were implemented by May/Cameron (who apparently campaigned for remain), everyone who wanted to remain as part of the EU is a racist?


 The vast majority of racists wanted out of the EU.


----------



## A380 (Jun 9, 2022)

Artaxerxes said:


> We’ll be getting socialism, free of the EU shackles, any day now


Any day now, It was in a paper some university lecturer sold me out side a pub. Yes siree any time now.

Taps watch...


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 9, 2022)

Artaxerxes said:


> We’ll be getting socialism, free of the EU shackles, any day now


In Portugal everyday we have The Socialist Party in government however what we get is the EU, free of the shackles of socialism


----------



## philosophical (Jun 9, 2022)

srb7677 said:


> We know the reasons for that. Half the population there feels no allegience to the UK and don't want a land border with the Republic. There is a desire to avoid a return to the troubles.
> 
> Trying to foce the issue actually risks driving Northern Ireland out of the uk. As well as playing fast and loose with peace itself.
> 
> ...



One day it will dawn on leave voters that it is down to them to square the circle you mentioned.
In the recent past it wasn’t so much of an issue was it?
In that there is a clue for leave voters how it can be resolved, but they are not prepared to see it.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 9, 2022)

srb7677 said:


> One of the rotten fruits of Brexit is going to be the break up of the UK.


you say that like it was a bad thing


----------



## inva (Jun 9, 2022)

srb7677 said:


> Those with racist views who supported EU membership  are few in number. Most of the racists I know of saw Brexit as a means to keep all the bloody foreigners out.


That may be true, although it's already a welcome step back from your earlier claim. If we can get away from the cartoon politics though the reality is that the uncouth racism represented within Leave and the sanitised, managerial racism represented among, for example, 'moderate Tories', Lib Dems and the Labour Party (and for that matter the EU itself) of Remain, work hand in hand.

If all racists voted to leave then many of the architects of racist policies who sustained, enouraged and attempted to make political use of that racism supported remain. For purposes of clarity I don't think that makes everyone who wanted to stay in the EU in some way morally compromised.


----------



## srb7677 (Jun 9, 2022)

philosophical said:


> One day it will dawn on leave voters that it is down to them to square the circle you mentioned.
> In the recent past it wasn’t so much of an issue was it?
> In that there is a clue for leave voters how it can be resolved, but they are not prepared to see it.


It wasn't an issue in the recent past because EU membership effectively abolished any border between north and south without requiring one anywhere else, like the Irish Sea.
The unsquareable circle now is entirely due to the fact that we have left the EU, thereby requiring a border between us and it. How we do that in a way that satisfies those with an allegiance to Ireland and those with an allegience to the UK is the impossible dilemma.


----------



## inva (Jun 9, 2022)

contadino said:


> Struggling to understand what you're saying.... Are you implying that because policies such as 'hostile environment' were implemented by May/Cameron (who apparently campaigned for remain), everyone who wanted to remain as part of the EU is a racist?


No not at all, I was just replying to the claim that all racists voted to leave by pointing out it's obviously untrue.


----------



## srb7677 (Jun 9, 2022)

inva said:


> That may be true, although it's already a welcome step back from your earlier claim. If we can get away from the cartoon politics though the reality is that the uncouth racism represented within Leave and the sanitised, managerial racism represented among, for example, 'moderate Tories', Lib Dems and the Labour Party (and for that matter the EU itself) of Remain, work hand in hand.
> 
> If all racists voted to leave then many of the architects of racist policies who sustained, enouraged and attempted to make political use of that racism supported remain. For purposes of clarity I don't think that makes everyone who wanted to stay in the EU in some way morally compromised.


For the purposes of clarification I don't think everyone who voted to Leave was morally compromised either. But the margin of victory was so small and the racist vote largely backing Brexit so comparatively large that it wouldnt have happened without the aid of the racist vote. That is my fundamental point.

I will however acknowledge that you made a good point when stating that the architects of the hostile environment policies were Remainers. Which has induced me to acknowledge that there were racists on the Remain side too. Hence my concession that I no longer view all racists as Leavers, just most. Enough to have swung it for Leave. Farage was an example of someone who pandered to such ugly sentiments.

Incidentally, I have edited my original post from "every racist" to "almost every racist" being a Brexit supporter.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 9, 2022)

srb7677 said:


> It wasn't an issue in the recent past because EU membership effectively abolished any border between north and south without requiring one anywhere else, like the Irish Sea.
> The unsquareable circle now is entirely due to the fact that we have left the EU, thereby requiring a border between us and it. How we do that in a way that satisfies those with an allegiance to Ireland and those with an allegience to the UK is the impossible dilemma.


the thing is you look on the border as an administrative matter whereas it's always been a much bigger thing than that - if the border was really abolished it would have a great impact on the economics of ireland as a whole, because it's dislocated development for the past hundred years. driving from donegal to louth through the six counties without having to go through border checks is convenient. but the border is to say the least very inconvenient for planning for the island as a whole. there are no real reasons why the border shouldn't be actually abolished and a new settlement for ireland reached


----------



## contadino (Jun 9, 2022)

inva said:


> No not at all, I was just replying to the claim that all racists voted to leave by pointing out it's obviously untrue.


It's not obvious by any stretch that racists voted to leave. It's obviously untrue that all leave voters are racists, though.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 9, 2022)

contadino said:


> It's not obvious by any stretch that racists voted to leave. It's obviously untrue that all leave voters are racists, though.


jesus mary and joseph, it's as though we hadn't considered this at excruciating length over the past six years


----------



## gosub (Jun 9, 2022)

contadino said:


> It's not obvious by any stretch that racists voted to leave. It's obviously untrue that all leave voters are racists, though.


*Sixty-two thousand four hundred repetitions don't make a truth.  But it doesn't stop them trying *


----------



## srb7677 (Jun 9, 2022)

contadino said:


> It's not obvious by any stretch that racists voted to leave. It's obviously untrue that all leave voters are racists, though.


That first sentence is just rubbish. On every forum and amongst everyone we meet, the racist types tend mostly to be Leavers. It is also logically blindingly obvious that for racist xenophobe types, leaving the EU to "regain control of our borders" and all that shite would be far more appealing than Remain. So of course most racists wanted out of the EU. It is patently obvious both by observation and logic.

You are in denial and faced with this reality are deploying a standard tactic of implying the Remainers were just as bad. When it comes to racism, most of them were not nearly as bad. There is you know a definite link between anti-immigrant sentiment and racism and xenophobia, and an obvious link between anti-immigrant sentiment and a desire to leave the EU to supposedly regain control of our borders. Join the dots, man, instead of trying unconvincingly to deny the obvious.


----------



## srb7677 (Jun 9, 2022)

gosub said:


> *Sixty-two thousand four hundred repetitions don't make a truth.  But it doesn't stop them trying *


Repeated denials of the patently obvious do not undo unwelcome facts either.


----------



## inva (Jun 9, 2022)

contadino said:


> It's not obvious by any stretch that racists voted to leave. It's obviously untrue that all leave voters are racists, though.


Yes, I think that's what I was saying more or less.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 9, 2022)

srb7677 said:


> That first sentence is just rubbish. On every forum and amongst everyone we meet, the racist types tend mostly to be Leavers. It is also logically blindingly obvious that for racist xenophobe types, leaving the EU to "regain control of our borders" and all that shite would be far more appealing than Remain. So of course most racists wanted out of the EU. It is patently obvious both by observation and logic.
> 
> You are in denial and faced with this reality are deploying a standard tactic of implying the Remainers were just as bad. When it comes to racism, most of them were not nearly as bad. There is you know a definite link between anti-immigrant sentiment and racism and xenophobia, and an obvious link between anti-immigrant sentiment and a desire to leave the EU to supposedly regain control of our borders. Join the dots, man, instead of trying unconvincingly to deny the obvious.


it's not at all logically obvious that for racists leaving the eu to gain control of our borders would be far more appealing than remain. consider (although i know you won't) - is it better to have the eu to take action at the borders of the union and for the eu to work in concert with the authorities in countries bordering the european union or in north africa over refugees or to pull up the drawbridge and hope that this country on its own can prevent people coming over the channel or through ireland or whatnot? how the uk would 'take control' of its borders was always painted only in very broad strokes, anyone who gave the matter more than a moment's thought would have realised that instead of taking control of borders leaving the eu meant the uk was more dependent than ever on countries remaining in the eu to stop people coming here. and that this wasn't likely to be something the french or belgians or whoever was going to see as a great priority - because for them it's people leaving their territory for an external country, not going to somewhere whose ministers can raise merry hell in the upper echelons of the eu.

i think you're perhaps not giving this matter the consideration it deserves if you feel that all this is patently obvious both by observation and logic.,


----------



## planetgeli (Jun 9, 2022)

Maggot said:


> Brexit helping cause harmful increase in fake ecstasy, study warns
> 
> 
> Covid and crackdowns also blamed as researchers find half of pills sold as MDMA at festivals in England contained none of the drug
> ...












						Brexit even ruining MDMA now
					

BREXIT is such an endless black hole of misery that it has even managed to make MDMA less fun, research has revealed.




					www.thedailymash.co.uk


----------



## Raheem (Jun 9, 2022)

It will be all the extra paperwork mules have been landed with.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jun 9, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> it's not at all logically obvious that for racists leaving the eu to gain control of our borders would be far more appealing than remain. consider (although i know you won't) - is it better to have the eu to take action at the borders of the union and for the eu to work in concert with the authorities in countries bordering the european union or in north africa over refugees or to pull up the drawbridge and hope that this country on its own can prevent peo



In addition to the avowedly and nakedly racist EU border policy highlighted here, it’s also worth noting that - for the first time - over 1 million foreign nationals were permitted to live in the post-Brexit UK last year.  



srb7677 said:


> That first sentence is just rubbish. On every forum and amongst everyone we meet, the racist types tend mostly to be Leavers. It is also logically blindingly obvious that for racist xenophobe types, leaving the EU to "regain control of our borders" and all that shite would be far more appealing than Remain.



Your evidence is this is it? Forums and ‘the people you meet’?


----------



## Ax^ (Jun 9, 2022)

hmm racist was a part of the vote mind if we going to start talking about a Racist EU


saying that Boris is going to cause a no deal situation in an attempt to save his own skin so there is always that to look forward to


----------



## Mezzer (Jun 9, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> it's not at all logically obvious that for racists leaving the eu to gain control of our borders would be far more appealing than remain. consider (although i know you won't) - is it better to have the eu to take action at the borders of the union and for the eu to work in concert with the authorities in countries bordering the european union or in north africa over refugees or to pull up the drawbridge and hope that this country on its own can prevent people coming over the channel or through ireland or whatnot? how the uk would 'take control' of its borders was always painted only in very broad strokes, anyone who gave the matter more than a moment's thought would have realised that instead of taking control of borders leaving the eu meant the uk was more dependent than ever on countries remaining in the eu to stop people coming here. and that this wasn't likely to be something the french or belgians or whoever was going to see as a great priority - because for them it's people leaving their territory for an external country, not going to somewhere whose ministers can raise merry hell in the upper echelons of the eu.
> 
> i think you're perhaps not giving this matter the consideration it deserves if you feel that all this is patently obvious both by observation and logic.,


You're overthinking this.  Leaving was overwhelmingly portrayed as 'patriotic' and 'taking back control' of virtually everything, which clearly appealed to racists.  You just need to accept the truism that not all leave voters were racist, but racists would invariably be leave voters.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jun 9, 2022)

Mezzer said:


> You're overthinking this.  Leaving was overwhelmingly portrayed as 'patriotic' and 'taking back control' of virtually everything, which clearly appealed to racists.  You just need to accept the truism that not all leave voters were racist, but racists would invariably be leave voters.



By way of contrast you don’t seem capable of thinking about anything very usefully. All you’ve done here is parrot lazy stereotypes from the mainstream media and disgruntled middle class liberals.

I’ve posted a number of research articles _on this thread _that suggest a myriad and complex set of reasons drove the leave vote.

As for racists, I’d imagine that the EU policy of walling off Europe from refugees would have been very appealing to them.

ETA: the Institute of Directors, the CBI, Cameron, Osborne, half of the Conservative party, Blair etc etc. All remainers: all supporters of racist policies….


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 9, 2022)

Mezzer said:


> You're overthinking this.  Leaving was overwhelmingly portrayed as 'patriotic' and 'taking back control' of virtually everything, which clearly appealed to racists.  You just need to accept the truism that not all leave voters were racist, but racists would invariably be leave voters.


Oh you know that's bollocks don't you. Utter shit. Like David Cameron and Theresa may etc etc were leave voters. You say I'm overthinking this. I think you've picked up a phrase you thought sounded clever - not all leave voters were racist but ... - and didn't think about it at all. You don't think may, the architect of the hostile environment, is racist I suppose


----------



## srb7677 (Jun 9, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> In addition to the avowedly and nakedly racist EU border policy highlighted here, it’s also worth noting that - for the first time - over 1 million foreign nationals were permitted to live in the post-Brexit UK last year.
> 
> 
> 
> Your evidence is this is it? Forums and ‘the people you meet’?


Plus commom sense and painfully obvious logic.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 9, 2022)

srb7677 said:


> Plus commom sense and painfully obvious logic.


Common sense is remarkably rare and the painful think about your logic is how you twist and turn things without rhyme or reason


----------



## rubbershoes (Jun 9, 2022)

And don't forget folks, if a middle class liberal thinks something , it's wrong


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jun 9, 2022)

srb7677 said:


> Plus commom sense and painfully obvious logic.



Two useful qualities, common sense and logic. A pity you’ve opted for stereotypes and ‘what I think’ instead. 

I’ve posted above the details of thousands of _leading remainers _all of whom have supported, initiated or helped to embed racist policies or practises. Pickmans has directed you to the nakedly racist EU borders policy.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jun 9, 2022)

rubbershoes said:


> And don't forget folks, if a middle class liberal thinks something , it's wrong



Best post on this thread by a mile.


----------



## srb7677 (Jun 9, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Two useful qualities, common sense and logic. A pity you’ve opted for stereotypes and ‘what I think’ instead.
> 
> I’ve posted above the details of thousands of _leading remainers _all of whom have supported, initiated or helped to embed racist policies or practises. Pickmans has directed you to the nakedly racist EU borders policy.


I also chose common sense and logic which you chose to use as an opportunity to bury your head in a bucket whilst singing la la la I cant hear you.

Again, anti-immigrant sentimiment is often going to be motivated by racism, and is also likely to cause those feeling it to oppose the EU to control our borders.

Join the dots. It's a simple enough equation. Anti-immigrant feelings = racism. Anti-immigrant feelings = support for Bexit. Therefore it follows that most racists will be Brexit supporters. And we all see this to be true all around us.


----------



## srb7677 (Jun 9, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Pickmans has directed you to the nakedly racist EU borders policy.


He has directed me nowhere since I have chosen to ignore him due to incessant negativity and personal animosity and borderline trolling. He doesn't like me. I don't like him. I have zero interest in anything he has to say and choose to see and hear none of it.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 9, 2022)

srb7677 said:


> I also chose common sense and logic which you chose to use as an opportunity to bury your head in a bucket whilst singing la la la I cant hear you.
> 
> Again, anti-immigrant sentimiment is often going to be motivated by racism, and is also likely to cause those feeling it to oppose the EU to control our borders.
> 
> Join the dots. It's a simple enough equation. Anti-immigrant feelings = racism. Anti-immigrant feelings = support for Bexit. Therefore it follows that most racists will be Brexit supporters. And we all see this to be true all around us.


How many racists do you know as a proportion of your acquaintance network?


----------



## srb7677 (Jun 9, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> By way of contrast you don’t seem capable of thinking about anything very usefully. All you’ve done here is parrot lazy stereotypes from the mainstream media and disgruntled middle class liberals.
> 
> I’ve posted a number of research articles _on this thread _that suggest a myriad and complex set of reasons drove the leave vote.
> 
> ...


There are numerous reasons why different people voted for Brexit. But plenty of racists voted for it for anti-immigrant, racist reasons. They'd never have won the referendum without the racist vote. Uncomfortable fact that must be denied or explained away because the truth hurts.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jun 9, 2022)

srb7677 said:


> He has directed me nowhere since I have chosen to ignore him due to incessant negativity and personal animosity and borderline trolling. He doesn't like me. I don't like him. I have zero interest in anything he has to say and choose to see and hear none of it.



Then allow me to: https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/78881269.pdf

A policy approach that the most disciplined BNP member would be proud of


----------



## srb7677 (Jun 9, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Then allow me to: https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/78881269.pdf
> 
> A policy approach that the most disciplined BNP member would be proud of


Will check it out tomorrow. Just got home from work and am tired, so zero patience for reading links of any kind right now.

But assuming for now that this references racistly motivated policies by the EU, that itself does not mean the anti-immigrant vote didn't want out. Of course they did. If you deny that you are kidding yourself. And with that I am done for tonight.

I have few fucks left to give about anything very much right now this side of sleep, and in this tired state would be likely to be a bit tetchy. I best fuck off until the morning.

Goodnight all.


----------



## srb7677 (Jun 10, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Then allow me to: https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/78881269.pdf
> 
> A policy approach that the most disciplined BNP member would be proud of


Having read most of that it seems that various national governments inside the EU have been pursuing racist immigration policies to those from outside. Shocker. Ours did the same.

Nevertheless our own racist and xenophobe vote wanted to stop bloody foreigners from within the EU from coming here too. Hence their support for Brexit.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 10, 2022)

srb7677 said:


> Having read most of that it seems that various national governments inside the EU have been pursuing racist immigration policies to those from outside. Shocker. Ours did the same.
> 
> Nevertheless our own racist and xenophobe vote wanted to stop bloody foreigners from within the EU from coming here too. Hence their support for Brexit.


if you'd been following this with half the assiduity you claim you'd have noticed that since 2016 migrants from the eu coming into britain have been replaced by migrants from without the eu coming into britain, which i don't suppose will please these racists much at all given that racism against black and asian people is more prevalent than racism against e.g. french or german (white) people.


----------



## teuchter (Jun 10, 2022)

rubbershoes said:


> And don't forget folks, if a middle class liberal thinks something , it's wrong


Unless they happen to be an academic who's written a wordy sociology paper on EU immigration policy.


----------



## Boris Sprinkler (Jun 10, 2022)

Are you aware of Frontex? 





__





						Abolish Frontex
					






					abolishfrontex.org


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 10, 2022)

Boris Sprinkler said:


> Are you aware of Frontex?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


the list of things teuchter's unaware of would, printed in 12 point times new roman, stretch from here to alpha centauri


----------



## Mezzer (Jun 10, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> Oh you know that's bollocks don't you. Utter shit. Like David Cameron and Theresa may etc etc were leave voters. You say I'm overthinking this. I think you've picked up a phrase you thought sounded clever - not all leave voters were racist but ... - and didn't think about it at all. You don't think may, the architect of the hostile environment, is racist I suppose


Crap.  You seem to be just trying to muddy the waters with tangential stuff that wouldn't have entered the minds of most Brexit voters.  If you don't like the Brexit company you keep, tough shit.  I'd bet my life on the fact that every far right group in the county voted Brexit.  Don't you recall them showing up en masse whenever there was a vote?  Anyway, I haven't got time to read more of your shit  - you seem to on here 24/7 mouthing off about something or other.


----------



## Chz (Jun 10, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> if you'd been following this with half the assiduity you claim you'd have noticed that since 2016 migrants from the eu coming into britain have been replaced by migrants from without the eu coming into britain, which i don't suppose will please these racists much at all given that racism against black and asian people is more prevalent than racism against e.g. french or german (white) people.


All the much sillier because there were plenty that pointed out the UK economy is heavily reliant on immigration and that exactly this would happen. With added nuance that a UK cut off from the EU is actually _less_ appealing to most of the Anglosphere that they'd prefer to attract here. As an ex-pat myself, f I were still a single bloke with no dependents I'd have very seriously considered moving on to elsewhere.


----------



## teuchter (Jun 10, 2022)

Boris Sprinkler said:


> Are you aware of Frontex?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If you're asking me, yes, but I'm not sure why you ask.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 10, 2022)

Mezzer said:


> Crap.  You seem to be just trying to muddy the waters with tangential stuff that wouldn't have entered the minds of most Brexit voters.  If you don't like the Brexit company you keep, tough shit.  I'd bet my life on the fact that every far right group in the county voted Brexit.  Don't you recall them showing up en masse whenever there was a vote?  Anyway, I haven't got time to read more of your shit  - you seem to on here 24/7 mouthing off about something or other.


Every far right group - perhaps. racism not solely their preserve, there's loads of racists in the main parties. But two of the biggest and most important racists, people with the power to affect millions, voted remain. Hardly invariably racists voted leave.


----------



## Boris Sprinkler (Jun 10, 2022)

I wasn’t asking anyone teuchter but i Can certainly see how other posters apparent irritation with you might make you ask. I was just throwing it into the conversation, in case anyone reading is interested.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 10, 2022)

Mezzer said:


> Crap.  You seem to be just trying to muddy the waters with tangential stuff that wouldn't have entered the minds of most Brexit voters.  If you don't like the Brexit company you keep, tough shit.  I'd bet my life on the fact that every far right group in the county voted Brexit.  Don't you recall them showing up en masse whenever there was a vote?  Anyway, I haven't got time to read more of your shit  - you seem to on here 24/7 mouthing off about something or other.


Please don't bet your life on the fact that every far right group in the country voted Brexit.  

What's left of the Mosleyites ( actually Mosely was very enthusiastic about a European Union post WW2)  were very much against Brexit


----------



## teuchter (Jun 10, 2022)

Boris Sprinkler said:


> I wasn’t asking anyone teuchter but i Can certainly see how other posters apparent irritation with you might make you ask. I was just throwing it into the conversation, in case anyone reading is interested.


It gave Pickman's model an excuse to type out an unprovoked insult, which possibly prevented him from engaging in negative activity elsewhere so it's all good.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 10, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Please don't bet your life on the fact that every far right group in the country voted Brexit.
> 
> What's left of the Mosleyites ( actually Mosely was very enthusiastic about a European Union post WW2)  were very much against Brexit


yeh i thought anyone in the tradition of the union movement might have been gnashing their teeth at brexit


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 10, 2022)

teuchter said:


> It gave Pickman's model an excuse to type out an unprovoked insult, which possibly prevented him from engaging in negative activity elsewhere so it's all good.


believe you me it was not an unprovoked comment.


----------



## teuchter (Jun 10, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> believe you me it was not an unprovoked comment.


Doesn't really matter. It had no effect on me and prevented you from harassing others so it was a good thing, thanks to me. Your reply to this comment will fall into the same category.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 10, 2022)

Mezzer said:


> Crap.  You seem to be just trying to muddy the waters with tangential stuff that wouldn't have entered the minds of most Brexit voters.  If you don't like the Brexit company you keep, tough shit.  I'd bet my life on the fact that every far right group in the county voted Brexit.  Don't you recall them showing up en masse whenever there was a vote?  Anyway, I haven't got time to read more of your shit  - you seem to on here 24/7 mouthing off about something or other.


further to my previous post i voted remain as i've said on a number of occasions. i'm very happy however with the brexit company i keep here, people like topcat and smokeandsteam. what's happened here is you've been handed your arse after making what are obviously bollocks comments: the instigators of the windrush scandal are racist, and what's more rather more successful racists than the twats in national action, generation identity, the various currents which came out of the bnp and so on. so as a remainer you're in less good company than you may have wished. as for my mouthing off about things, it's what we do here. if you don't like mouthing off then perhaps you're on the wrong website


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 10, 2022)

teuchter said:


> Doesn't really matter. It had no effect on me and prevented you from harassing others so it was a good thing, thanks to me. Your reply to this comment will fall into the same category.


no it won't


----------



## bimble (Jun 10, 2022)

Ten thousand five hundred and eighty two posts are we nearly there yet.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 10, 2022)

bimble said:


> Ten thousand five hundred and eighty two posts are we nearly there yet.


no


----------



## Yossarian (Jun 10, 2022)

bimble said:


> Ten thousand five hundred and eighty two posts are we nearly there yet.



The true meaning of Brexit won't be revealed until post 50208


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 10, 2022)

bimble said:


> Ten thousand five hundred and eighty two posts are we nearly there yet.


We keep getting spurts of more posters, refreshingly just regurgitating what has been said years ago.


----------



## bimble (Jun 10, 2022)

I experienced a benefit of brexit yesterday.  My very annoying next door neighbour, who voted brexit and said back then that he didn’t think it would change anything (except there’d be less immigrants and less health & safety gawn mad laws) he’s having a hard time trying to get EU citizenship which he really wants now so he can go retire in his spare house in France, the idiot. Made me smile on the inside whilst listening with a very blank face.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 10, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> We keep getting spurts of more posters, refreshingly just regurgitating what has been said years ago.


yeh people have chucked all over the thread


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 10, 2022)

bimble said:


> I experienced a benefit of brexit yesterday.  My very annoying next door neighbour, who voted brexit and said back then that he didn’t think it would change anything (except there’d be less immigrants and less health & safety gawn mad laws) he’s having a hard time trying to get EU citizenship which he really wants now so he can go retire in his spare house in France, the idiot. Made me smile on the inside whilst listening with a very blank face.


Is this the yoga retreat people or is that another neighbour


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 10, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Is this the yoga retreat people or is that another neighbour


is it the dog hater? we should be told


----------



## bimble (Jun 10, 2022)

It’s always the same one yep ! I only have the one immediate neighbour, the yoga teaching dog abandoner.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 10, 2022)

bimble said:


> It’s always the same one yep ! I only have the one immediate neighbour, the yoga teaching dog abandoner.


don't think france will want him


----------



## Chilli.s (Jun 10, 2022)

Ring him up in the middle of the night and put on a french accent, tell him "ze roof 'as... 'ow you say... blown off"


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 10, 2022)

Yossarian said:


> The true meaning of Brexit won't be revealed until the year 50208


Fify


----------



## srb7677 (Jun 11, 2022)

contadino said:


> It's obviously untrue that all leave voters are racists, though.


I've never claimed that they were. But go ahead with your attacks on straw men if you feel the need.

I said the racist vote swung it for Brexit. That is a far cry from trying to claim that all Brexit voters are racists which would be ridiculous.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jun 11, 2022)

srb7677 said:


> I've never claimed that they were. But go ahead with your attacks on straw men if you feel the need.
> 
> I said the racist vote swung it for Brexit. That is a far cry from trying to claim that all Brexit voters are racists which would be ridiculous.



But, as we’ve established, you’ve got no evidence whatsoever to back up your claim. Bar what you read on forms and ‘the people you meet’.


----------



## srb7677 (Jun 11, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> But, as we’ve established, you’ve got no evidence whatsoever to back up your claim. Bar what you read on forms and ‘the people you meet’.


You yourself are providing ample evidence thatr your head is buried in a bucket. Because twice now I have actually demonstrated the logical connection between anti-immigrant feeling and racism, and anti-immigrant feeling and a desire for Brexit. And that therefore Brexit is an attractive option to most racists  for racist reasons.

I have now just pointed that out for a third time.

The evidence of obvious logic might well be unwelcome to you but pretending I have not demonstrated it makes you look ridiculous and blinkered.

Here is some evidence of the obvious....









						Prejudice against immigrants was a 'major' factor in Brexit vote, study finds
					

People who met EU citizens living in Britain tended to have a good experience and were therefore more likely to vote Remain




					www.independent.co.uk


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jun 11, 2022)

Chz said:


> All the much sillier because there were plenty that pointed out the UK economy is heavily reliant on immigration and that exactly this would happen. With added nuance that a UK cut off from the EU is actually _less_ appealing to most of the Anglosphere that they'd prefer to attract here.



Over 1/4 million people - from all over the world and in the middle of a pandemic - came in the UK last year. The idea that only exploited labour from the EU could be attracted here is another remain fantasy that has no substance in fact


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 11, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Over 1/4 million people - from all over the world and in the middle of a pandemic - came in the UK last year. The idea that only exploited labour from the EU could be attracted here is another remain fantasy that has no substance in fact


Yeh exploited labour from elsewhere can come here too. And exploiters are particularly welcomed by this government


----------



## srb7677 (Jun 11, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> But, as we’ve established, you’ve got no evidence whatsoever to back up your claim. Bar what you read on forms and ‘the people you meet’.


Here is yet more evidence of the link between anti-immigrant prejudice and support for Brexit....






						British Social Attitudes 34
					

Introduction to the 34th British Social Attitudes Report.



					bsa.natcen.ac.uk
				




So "we" (you and whose army? lol) have demonstrated nothing of the kind beyond your own failure to read properly anything you don't like.


----------



## philosophical (Jun 11, 2022)

Any leave voters on here are unable to describe how leave works around the land border in Ireland.
It might be because they are anti Irish racists, but that would be (educated) guesswork.
However because they don’t have a solution to the Irish border problem they have invited on (and bollocks to their attempt to retrofit a justification by saying they had a master plan for a United Ireland) it indicated those leave voters are morons.
Here is an invitation to the lurking leave voters. Given the reality of the living experience right now in Ireland, especially the bit that is in the UK, suggest practical solutions as to how leave should work on the border. 
What tends to happen next is leave voters say ‘it’s not my problem’. That advances leave voters from morons to cunts.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 11, 2022)

philosophical said:


> Any leave voters on here are unable to describe how leave works around the land border in Ireland.
> It might be because they are anti Irish racists, but that would be (educated) guesswork.
> However because they don’t have a solution to the Irish border problem they have invited on (and bollocks to their attempt to retrofit a justification by saying they had a master plan for a United Ireland) it indicated those leave voters are morons.
> Here is an invitation to the lurking leave voters. Given the reality of the living experience right now in Ireland, especially the bit that is in the UK, suggest practical solutions as to how leave should work on the border.
> What tends to happen next is leave voters say ‘it’s not my problem’. That advances leave voters from morons to cunts.



Personally, didn't have a master plan or anything like that. Was fairly against Brexit and all (voted remain), but the dawning realization that it's a good thing for Ireland (and Scotland) trumps most concerns for the less favorable byproducts of Brexit. 

Stressing most. Not all. Plenty of people have been fucked over by it.


----------



## philosophical (Jun 11, 2022)

krtek a houby said:


> Personally, didn't have a master plan or anything like that. Was fairly against Brexit and all (voted remain), but the dawning realization that it's a good thing for Ireland (and Scotland) trumps most concerns for the less favorable byproducts of Brexit.
> 
> Stressing most. Not all. Plenty of people have been fucked over by it.



Like it or not the bloody Unionist community in the north of Ireland exists, and has done for hundreds of years.
In my lifetime there has been terrible examples of violent attacks because of the division of that landmass.
Having both the UK and the ROI in the EU diluted division, and the Good Friday agreement has gone a long way to establishing peaceful coexistence.
The leave vote, as we can see in front of our eyes right now, not see as a dawning realisation, threatens the equilibrium that has brought relative peace, threatens it right now.
Leave voters (not you) have fucked it up and now appear to wash their hands of their responsibility to find solutions. Nearly six years on and still they have nothing (do you remember the talk of ‘technological’ solutions?) because a solution that honours what ‘leave’ means is either the dogs dinner of the failing Irish Sea border, or a hard border on the Irish mainland.
Is there an immediate practical solution I am missing?


----------



## rubbershoes (Jun 11, 2022)

srb7677 said:


> I've never claimed that they were. But go ahead with your attacks on straw men if you feel the need.
> 
> I said the racist vote swung it for Brexit. That is a far cry from trying to claim that all Brexit voters are racists which would be ridiculous.




Leave played the anti immigrant card strongly 




In the months leading up to the vote, the TV showed large numbers of Syrian refugees moving across Europe. I'm convinced that was a factor in the vote.


----------



## Spymaster (Jun 11, 2022)

philosophical said:


> Any leave voters on here are unable to describe how leave works around the land border in Ireland.
> It might be because they are anti Irish racists, but that would be (educated) guesswork.
> However because they don’t have a solution to the Irish border problem they have invited on (and bollocks to their attempt to retrofit a justification by saying they had a master plan for a United Ireland) it indicated those leave voters are morons.
> Here is an invitation to the lurking leave voters. Given the reality of the living experience right now in Ireland, especially the bit that is in the UK, suggest practical solutions as to how leave should work on the border.
> What tends to happen next is leave voters say ‘it’s not my problem’. That advances leave voters from morons to cunts.



 I voted remain but am not too fussed at leaving and if it pisses people like you off, I'm all for it!


----------



## srb7677 (Jun 11, 2022)

rubbershoes said:


> Leave played the anti immigrant card strongly
> 
> View attachment 326680
> 
> ...


Of course it was a factor and such racism played it's part. It is and always was blatantly obvious to anyone except those burying their heads in the sand about such unwelcome facts.
We can all remember Turkey being used to attract the racist vote, pandering to both racists and islamaphobes. And we can all remember the anti-immigrant rantings of that darling of the Leave cause Nigel Farage. 

In trying to deny that the racist vote swung it for Brexit, the usual suspects here are taking most of us for fools. Supporting evidence is very easy to find if they ignore simple logic.

They also tend to wilfully misinterpret, attacking me and others for trying to say that all Leave voters are racists which we have never said. Merely that enough were to make the difference.


----------



## xenon (Jun 11, 2022)

I see the old death spiral is still in operation.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 11, 2022)

I can see why forums , Blairite or otherwise, kick people off now.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 11, 2022)

philosophical said:


> Having both the UK and the ROI in the EU diluted division,


Bilge. Both the UK and 26 cos were in the common market / eec  / EU for most of the years of the troubles and I didn't see it doing much in eg 1981, 1985 to dilute division. You underestimate the work done by the likes of Bertie ahern, John major, Gerry Adams and John Hume towards the peace process. Don't remember loyalists sticking their necks out for peace until republicans forced their hand




Spoiler


----------



## teuchter (Jun 11, 2022)

srb7677 said:


> Of course it was a factor and such racism played it's part. It is and always was blatantly obvious to anyone except those burying their heads in the sand about such unwelcome facts.
> We can all remember Turkey being used to attract the racist vote, pandering to both racists and islamaphobes. And we can all remember the anti-immigrant rantings of that darling of the Leave cause Nigel Farage.
> 
> In trying to deny that the racist vote swung it for Brexit, the usual suspects here are taking most of us for fools. Supporting evidence is very easy to find if they ignore simple logic.
> ...


Can you remind us what your main point is? As in, even if loads of racists voted for brexit... So, therefore.... what?

Were non racists in favour of brexit supposed to vote for remain instead, or something?


----------



## srb7677 (Jun 11, 2022)

teuchter said:


> Can you remind us what your main point is? As in, even if loads of racists voted for brexit... So, therefore.... what?
> 
> Were non racists in favour of brexit supposed to vote for remain instead, or something?


My point is simple. That the victory of Brexit relied on the racist vote swinging it their way. Some like Farage openly pandered to it.
Brexit is therefore a victory for racism.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 11, 2022)

srb7677 said:


> My point is simple. That the victory of Brexit relied on the racist vote swinging it their way. Some like Farage openly pandered to it.
> Brexit is therefore a victory for racism.


Perhaps you have it the wrong way round and it's the non-racists who swung it.


----------



## srb7677 (Jun 11, 2022)

teuchter said:


> Were non racists in favour of brexit supposed to vote for remain instead, or something?


Non-racists were of course free to vote for Brexit too. But they ought to have sufficient integrity and honesty to ackowledge that they needed the backing of the racists too, without whom they would have lost.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 11, 2022)

srb7677 said:


> Non-racists were of course free to vote for Brexit too. But they ought to have sufficient integrity and honesty to ackowledge that they needed the backing of the racists too, without whom they would have lost.



Behind every non-racist is a racist?


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Jun 11, 2022)

Well, nearly 6 years in and the arguments are exactly the same, so it’s clearly been a success


----------



## philosophical (Jun 11, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> Bilge. Both the UK and 26 cos were in the common market / eec  / EU for most of the years of the troubles and I didn't see it doing much in eg 1981, 1985 to dilute division. You underestimate the work done by the likes of Bertie ahern, John major, Gerry Adams and John Hume towards the peace process. Don't remember loyalists sticking their necks out for peace until republicans forced their hand
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Where have I underestimated the work done by the people you mention?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 11, 2022)

philosophical said:


> Where have I underestimated the work done by the people you mention?


You claimed that both UK and 26 cos in EU diluted division -> gfa. But without the people I mentioned no gfa. No reduction in division, insofar as there has been such a reduction tho the way the uup have been relegated and the dup become the largest unionist party doesn't to me suggest a reduction in division.


----------



## srb7677 (Jun 11, 2022)

krtek a houby said:


> Behind every non-racist is a racist?


Straw man time again is it?

I never said that as you of course know. Non racists as well as racists voted for Brexit. But there were not enough of the former to win it on their own. The racist vote made the difference.


----------



## Spymaster (Jun 11, 2022)

srb7677 said:


> Straw man time again is it?
> 
> I never said that as you of course know. Non racists as well as racists voted for Brexit. But there were not enough of the former to win it on their own. The racist vote made the difference.



And the non-racists who voted to leave fucked it for the remainers. 

This is a stunning piece of analysis you’ve got going on here.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 11, 2022)

Spymaster said:


> And the non-racists who voted to leave fucked it for the remainers.
> 
> This is a stunning piece of analysis you’ve got going on here.





Pickman's model said:


> Perhaps you have it the wrong way round and it's the non-racists who swung it.


Hmm. You've missed your tack here spy


----------



## Spymaster (Jun 11, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> Hmm. You've missed your tack here spy



Great minds Herr Model


----------



## srb7677 (Jun 11, 2022)

Spymaster said:


> And the non-racists who voted to leave fucked it for the remainers.
> 
> This is a stunning piece of analysis you’ve got going on here.


All the racists who voted for Leave won it for Leavers.

The evidence of which is overwhelming.

Try and twist it into something else as much as you like.


----------



## Spymaster (Jun 11, 2022)

srb7677 said:


> All the racists who voted for Leave won it for Leavers.



I reckon it was the bricklayers. 

If every bricklayer who voted to leave had voted to remain, things would be different now, I can tell ya!


----------



## teqniq (Jun 11, 2022)

They were hardly going to vote for anything else were they?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 11, 2022)

teqniq said:


> They were hardly going to vote for anything else were they?




What way did Cameron and May vote?


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 11, 2022)

Spymaster said:


> I reckon it was the bricklayers.
> 
> If every bricklayer who voted to leave had voted to remain, things would be different now, I can tell ya!


How did the cyclist vote breakdown?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 11, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> How did the cyclist vote breakdown?



The recumbent vote swung it.


----------



## two sheds (Jun 11, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> Perhaps you have it the wrong way round and it's the non-racists who swung it.


This is I think a point you need to respond to srb7677


----------



## teuchter (Jun 11, 2022)

srb7677 said:


> Non-racists were of course free to vote for Brexit too. But they ought to have sufficient integrity and honesty to ackowledge that they needed the backing of the racists too, without whom they would have lost.


Once they've "acknowledged" this, then what?


----------



## Ax^ (Jun 11, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Over 1/4 million people - from all over the world and in the middle of a pandemic - came in the UK last year. The idea that only exploited labour from the EU could be attracted here is another remain fantasy that has no substance in fact



ah so leave the EU has no stop the exploration of foreign cheap labour


so leaving the EU was a complete and utter waste of time


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 11, 2022)

srb7677 said:


> Straw man time again is it?
> 
> I never said that as you of course know. Non racists as well as racists voted for Brexit. But there were not enough of the former to win it on their own. The racist vote made the difference.



By how much?


----------



## teqniq (Jun 11, 2022)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> What way did Cameron and May vote?


Perhaps i should have worded it 'the vast majority of the populace who could be considered racists were hardly going to vote any other way'. But as for Cameron and May - the latter was certainly responsible for the roving billboard ads and the 'hostile environment' does that make her racist? Possibly and yet she would almost certainly have voted remain. As for Cameron tbh i have no certain idea off the top of my head but of one thing I am certain is that politicians will very often pursue policies and do or say things that are calculated to curry favour with their current perception of the public mood.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jun 11, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> ah so leave the EU has no stop the exploration of foreign cheap labour
> 
> 
> so leaving the EU was a complete and utter waste of time



The propulsive force - for working class voters - for leaving the EU was to deliver a metaphorical kick in the bollocks to the political class. For those involved in pro working class politics, a second motivator for the vote was the opportunity to break with neo-liberal economic orthodoxy: which was and is the underpinning and fundamental reason for the existence of the EU project. 

So leaving the EU was very much a good use of time….


----------



## Ax^ (Jun 11, 2022)

kick in the ballocks for the party at campaigned for the leave vote for 30 years
and even with a fuck wit like boris johnson in the top job will likely been in power for the next 10 years

with we gave you brexit being brought up in every election till we all die


soild win for the working man


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jun 11, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> kick in the ballocks for the party at campaigned for the leave vote for 30 years
> and even with a fuck wit like boris johnson in the top job will likely been in power for the next 10 years
> 
> with we gave you brexit being brought up in every election till we all die
> ...



The Conservative party leadership campaigned for remain. Cameron, Osborne and then May were all remainers. The Labour Party, Liberals, Greens, SNP also campaigned for remain.

Even if they had all been leavers the simple fact is that the EU economic project - and it was this that voters were asked to decide on - was and is inherently counter to the interests of workers in the UK (and the rest of the Europe for that matter).


----------



## Ax^ (Jun 11, 2022)

the leader ship at the time  of the conservative party campaigned to remain

not the whole party


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jun 11, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> the leader ship at the time  of the conservative party campaigned to remain
> 
> not the whole party



That’s exactly what I wrote. 

And as for your second point, the emergence of Boris Johnson, two points will suffice:

1. The 2019 election result - had Labour gone into it promising to respect the referendum result, and not pandered to middle class liberal remainers demanding another vote - would have been very different.
2. Johnson is a lifelong remainer too, right up until he opportunistically saw a path to power via backing leave. (Corbyn and McDonnell, tragically, took the opposite journey). I’ll leave you to decide what it says about remain politics when a fuckwit like Johnson is a fellow traveller.


----------



## andysays (Jun 11, 2022)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> Well, nearly 6 years in and the arguments are exactly the same, so it’s clearly been a success


----------



## teuchter (Jun 11, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> For those involved in pro working class politics, a second motivator for the vote was the opportunity to break with neo-liberal economic orthodoxy


Assuming you still think this opportunity really existed, who was it that was supposed to take advantage of it and why have they failed?


----------



## philosophical (Jun 11, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> You claimed that both UK and 26 cos in EU diluted division -> gfa. But without the people I mentioned no gfa. No reduction in division, insofar as there has been such a reduction tho the way the uup have been relegated and the dup become the largest unionist party doesn't to me suggest a reduction in division.


Whatever,
The land border in Ireland has become more of a problem than it was because of the vote to leave.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 11, 2022)

philosophical said:


> Whatever,
> The land border in Ireland has become more of a problem than it was because of the vote to leave.


Yeh I didn't think you'd back up your dissolving division bit


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 11, 2022)

philosophical said:


> Whatever,
> The land border in Ireland has become more of a problem than it was because of the vote to leave.


----------



## philosophical (Jun 11, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> Yeh I didn't think you'd back up your dissolving division bit


I don’t have to because I wrote _diluting _division.
If you want to show off then get your facts right.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 11, 2022)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> What way did Cameron and May vote?






teqniq said:


> As for Cameron tbh i have no certain idea off the top of my head but of one thing I am certain is that politicians will very often pursue policies and do or say things that are calculated to curry favour with their current perception of the public mood.



The prime minister who quit cos the vote went leave, I think the pig fucking Etonian dicksplash may have been a remain racist. Just a hunch.


----------



## ska invita (Jun 11, 2022)

bimble said:


> Ten thousand five hundred and eighty two posts are we nearly there yet.


Slow start but exciting work is occurring at the Office of Brexit Opportunities and Government Efficiencies .... Any moment now...


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 11, 2022)

philosophical said:


> I don’t have to because I wrote _diluting _division.
> If you want to show off then get your facts right.


Strangely you said nothing to support your bit about diluting division in your response to this post:


Pickman's model said:


> You claimed that both UK and 26 cos in EU diluted division -> gfa. But without the people I mentioned no gfa. No reduction in division, insofar as there has been such a reduction tho the way the uup have been relegated and the dup become the largest unionist party doesn't to me suggest a reduction in division.


I'm asking you now to substantiate your diluting division claim. If you don't have to back stuff up when someone puts the wrong word in their post I suppose you have to , by your own code of honour, when they ask you directly using the words you did


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 11, 2022)

philosophical there are but two references to the EU in Tim pat coogan's the troubles, neither of which are about the EU doing anything about division. So where are you getting your info on the EU from? Or are you just making it up?


----------



## philosophical (Jun 11, 2022)

Both the ROI and the UK being in the same system, following the same rules by the introduction of the single market in 1993, made it easier in some areas of life on the island for people to get along better because it got rid of any customs controls. Hence some reasons for folk on the island to complain they are divided were lessened, hence diluted.
The single market was an EU thing.
When do you think customs controls between the north and the south were fully abolished, and did the EU have anything to do with that?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 11, 2022)

philosophical said:


> Both the ROI and the UK being in the same system, following the same rules by the introduction of the single market in 1993, made it easier in some areas of life on the island for people to get along better because it got rid of any customs controls. Hence some reasons for folk on the island to complain they are divided were lessened, hence diluted.
> The single market was an EU thing.
> When do you think customs controls between the north and the south were fully abolished, and did the EU have anything to do with that?


Yes but what's your actual evidence for division being diluted on anything more than a bureaucratic level?


----------



## philosophical (Jun 11, 2022)

This is more than a bureaucratic level thing, it is a practical level thing.
It stopped existing after 1993.


----------



## rubbershoes (Jun 11, 2022)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> Well, nearly 6 years in and the arguments are exactly the same, so it’s clearly been a success



We're all feeling the benefit of it now. Who can deny it was a good idea?


----------



## Ax^ (Jun 11, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> That’s exactly what I wrote.
> 
> And as for your second point, the emergence of Boris Johnson, two points will suffice:
> 
> ...



if only the remainer had included works rights on the exit bill


no wait its the Torys


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 11, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> if only the remainer had included works rights on the exit bill
> 
> 
> no wait its the Torys


Let's face it, most remainers weren't bothered about workers' rights. They just thought the EU was somehow better than the Tories.


----------



## two sheds (Jun 11, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Let's face it, most remainers weren't bothered about workers' rights. They just thought the EU was somehow better than the Tories.


Let's face it, that wouldn't be difficult


----------



## Ax^ (Jun 11, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Let's face it, most remainers weren't bothered about workers' rights. They just thought the EU was somehow better than the Tories.



about as most left leave voters where interested in the racist element of the win percentage


----------



## bluescreen (Jun 11, 2022)

two sheds said:


> Let's face it, that wouldn't be difficult


Especially when there was this narrative








						Nigel Farage: The story of 'Mr Brexit'
					

There are, Farage-watchers say, two Nigels: Nice Nigel and Nasty Nigel. And the election could still turn on which one emerges in the campaign.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## Ax^ (Jun 11, 2022)

two sheds said:


> Let's face it, that wouldn't be difficult



hey we got brexit and strong legacy tory party

sure we are all fine as working people


----------



## gosub (Jun 11, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> hey we got brexit and strong legacy tory party
> 
> sure we are all fine as working people


Is that a strong tory party as in strong and stable  May or strong as in >40% that don't have confidence in their PM?


----------



## spitfire (Jun 11, 2022)

rubbershoes said:


> We're all feeling the benefit of it now. Who can deny it was a good idea?



Me. The 2 litres of duty free vodka did not make me feel benefits. Short term perhaps but felt a bit groo afterwards. 

So am now 50/50 remain/leave.


----------



## Ax^ (Jun 11, 2022)

gosub said:


> Is that a strong tory party as in strong and stable  May or strong as in >40% that don't have confidence in their PM?



Terresa had a better result of a no confidence vote, did not help her

the european research group wankers around Johnson will instruct him to clining on


----------



## brogdale (Jun 11, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> The propulsive force - for working class voters - for leaving the EU was to deliver a metaphorical kick in the bollocks to the political class.


We have been round this route many times...but just for old times sake, I'll bite once again.

Though I do accept that there's some truth in this type of analysis of the Leave vote I really do think it's quite reductive. My recollections of talking with, albeit older, working class relatives and friends in the lead to up 2016 seemed to inevitably end up with two key themes. One was a general perception that, although much was promised economically at the time of UK accession, our joining coincided with a period of decline in quality of working class life, community cohesion and that general sense that since 73/75 things had gone to shit. Now many on here know that the secular attacks on our class result from the rise of neoliberalism, the destruction of the social contract and the waning threat of system competition, but many of the Leave voters I know didn't. Understandably, they went with the correlation as causation line and voted Leave for change to all that. Not wishing to stir up the "they're all racists" debate, but the second thing that I remember really engaging with the Leave voters I know was the "European migrant crisis" that unfolded in the year before the referendum. It dominated the MSM agenda for months on end and clearly worried, maybe even frightened older voters in particular.

Obviously I'm generalising from the specifics of my recollection of the time, and I know there are obviously many more dimensions to what motivated the vote; it's just that I've never been particularly persuaded by the "kick in the bollocks" line. It just seems patronising to me suggesting that working class Leave voters were incapable of anything other than the most basic of gut reactions to the "choice" on offer.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 11, 2022)

philosophical said:


> This is more than a bureaucratic level thing, it is a practical level thing.
> It stopped existing after 1993.
> 
> View attachment 326808


Hey bureaucratic things can be practical as in the example you've used


----------



## philosophical (Jun 11, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> Hey bureaucratic things can be practical as in the *example you've used*



As in the evidence you asked for.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 12, 2022)

philosophical said:


> As in the evidence you asked for.


If it really diluted division you'd have thought the vote for the dup wouldn't have risen and indeed that examples from elsewhere in the EU might be found but you see from eg Ireland and eg Spain that the EU does not dilute division - one need look no further than the principled stand on democracy the eu has taken on catalonia or euskadi. And your example isn't about the EU diluting division in terms of reducing the actual causes of conflict. But from what you're saying, the eec/ec/eu didn't do anything in Ireland that it wasn't doing in Germany or Portugal or Scotland or Carinthia, that any benefit to the situation in Ireland was purely coincidental


----------



## tommers (Jun 12, 2022)

brogdale said:


> We have been round this route many times...but just for old times sake, I'll bite once again.
> 
> Though I do accept that there's some truth in this type of analysis of the Leave vote I really do think it's quite reductive. My recollections of talking with, albeit older, working class relatives and friends in the lead to up 2016 seemed to inevitably end up with two key themes. One was a general perception that, although much was promised economically at the time of UK accession, our joining coincided with a period of decline in quality of working class life, community cohesion and that general sense that since 73/75 things had gone to shit. Now many on here know that the secular attacks on our class result from the rise of neoliberalism, the destruction of the social contract and the waning threat of system competition, but many of the Leave voters I know didn't. Understandably, they went with the correlation as causation line and voted Leave for change to all that. Not wishing to stir up the "they're all racists" debate, but the second thing that I remember really engaging with the Leave voters I know was the "European migrant crisis" that unfolded in the year before the referendum. It dominated the MSM agenda for months on end and clearly worried, maybe even frightened older voters in particular.
> 
> Obviously I'm generalising from the specifics of my recollection of the time, and I know there are obviously many more dimensions to what motivated the vote; it's just that I've never been particularly persuaded by the "kick in the bollocks" line. It just seems patronising to me suggesting that working class Leave voters were incapable of anything other than the most basic of gut reactions to the "choice" on offer.


All my parents voted leave, 

My mum "to piss David Cameron off" 
My dad "to get power to people we can vote out" 
Stepmum 1 “immigration"
Stepmum 2 “actually believed the bus"

I have hardly looked at this thread but just seems to be the same arguments repeating forever.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 12, 2022)

Ah yes, that heady combination of remain and  workers rights that Ax^  swims in


----------



## Chilli.s (Jun 12, 2022)

tommers said:


> My mum "to piss David Cameron off"
> My dad "to get power to people we can vote out"
> Stepmum 1 “immigration"
> Stepmum 2 “actually believed the bus"


This is why brexit is a fail, the 2 choice allowed in the ballot meant different things to different people.

The result is not failure of the people though but failure of the politicians and civil servants who came up with the stupid in or out choice.

What party was that again... torys, theres ways of making money out of every situation, war, famine, pestilence... always money to be made


----------



## two sheds (Jun 12, 2022)

tommers said:


> All my parents voted leave,
> 
> My mum "to piss David Cameron off"
> My dad "to get power to people we can vote out"
> ...


See, 25% voted leave because of immigration. Proves it


----------



## philosophical (Jun 12, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> If it really diluted division you'd have thought the vote for the dup wouldn't have risen and indeed that examples from elsewhere in the EU might be found but you see from eg Ireland and eg Spain that the EU does not dilute division - one need look no further than the principled stand on democracy the eu has taken on catalonia or euskadi. And your example isn't about the EU diluting division in terms of reducing the actual causes of conflict. But from what you're saying, the eec/ec/eu didn't do anything in Ireland that it wasn't doing in Germany or Portugal or Scotland or Carinthia, that any benefit to the situation in Ireland was purely coincidental



It may have been coincidental, but it happened. The EU wide adoption of the single market in 1993 led to things like the customs post I pictured going away.
I see that as a factor in the dilution of conflict even if you don’t, or even if you don’t think it was enough.
I do not see the adoption of the single market to be the only bit of progress made to tackle the conflict in Ireland, but I believe it helped, as I say if only for the reason that such border infrastructure went away.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 12, 2022)

philosophical said:


> It may have been coincidental, but it happened. The EU wide adoption of the single market in 1993 led to things like the customs post I pictured going away.
> I see that as a factor in the dilution of conflict even if you don’t, or even if you don’t think it was enough.
> I do not see the adoption of the single market to be the only bit of progress made to tackle the conflict in Ireland, but I believe it helped, as I say if only for the reason that such border infrastructure went away.


But the border infrastructure wasn't the cause or a major cause of the conflict and its removal did nothing about the occupation of the six counties or the structural inequalities in them.  Or for that matter inequalities in the 26 cos


----------



## philosophical (Jun 12, 2022)

Yeah whatever.
It is said that a journey of a thousand miles starts with a single step, I would add to make sure the first step is in the right direction.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 12, 2022)

philosophical said:


> Yeah whatever.
> It is said that a journey of a thousand miles starts with a single step, I would add to make sure the first step is in the right direction.


It's been interesting to see the only thing you think the eu did in Ireland to dilute division is removal of border infrastructure.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jun 12, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Ah yes, that heady combination of remain and  workers rights that Ax^  swims in
> 
> View attachment 326853



Labour Remain


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 12, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Labour Remain
> 
> View attachment 326867


I am in awe of their numbers


----------



## Ax^ (Jun 12, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Ah yes, that heady combination of remain and  workers rights that Ax^  swims in
> 
> View attachment 326853



does this guy make government policy anymore 

now lets look at the current shower


> Grant Shapps says law change could allow agency workers to break strikes
> 
> 
> Transport secretary also says workers could be banned from overtime, as rail industrial action looms
> ...



Brexit helping the right of workers a brave new future


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 12, 2022)

Not the same Tom Watson who said 



> I think it’s very likely that a Labour government would want to reform the European Union and yes, if we get to a general election in 2020, of course we would have to listen to our voters. They’re giving us a pretty clear signal in this referendum, and I think we should be listening very clearly to what they’re telling us ...
> 
> I’m very proud of Jeremy’s very long-held view that Britain should rightly lead the world in its reputation for providing haven for people fleeing war-torn areas or fleeing persecution, but that pride risks being undermined if we don’t address the concerns of British workers who have been affected by a de-regulated labour market. And they’ve been telling us for some time now that we need to look at these issues. So I think it could be that we go into a UK general election with that reform proposals on offer ...
> 
> With freedom of movement, it’s one issue that’s coming up on the doorstep. A future government - whether it be Labour or Conservative - has to hear what voters are telling them and if you look across the continent of Europe, voters are telling political elites the same thing. So to me it’s inevitable that whoever wins the next general election will have to make it their negotiating position when it comes to future European reform and David Cameron has the opportunity to do that as prime minister now if he makes it the priority for Britain’s leadership of the presidency of the EU next year.


----------



## philosophical (Jun 12, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> It's been interesting to see the only thing you think the eu did in Ireland to dilute division is removal of border infrastructure.


Will you link to the post where I said it was the _only _thing?
Do you think the removal of border infrastructure was beneficial?
I doubt you are genuinely interested in what I think, to me your modus operandi with me and some other posters seems to be all about trying to put people down in order to position yourself as somehow superior.
It doesn’t work with me.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 12, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> does this guy make government policy anymore
> 
> now lets look at the current shower
> 
> ...


Sorry but in what way is this proposal anything to do with Brexit?


----------



## Ax^ (Jun 12, 2022)

and was does adonis latest rambling have to do with it


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 12, 2022)

philosophical said:


> Will you link to the post where I said it was the _only _thing?
> Do you think the removal of border infrastructure was beneficial?
> I doubt you are genuinely interested in what I think, to me your modus operandi with me and some other posters seems to be all about trying to put people down in order to position yourself as somehow superior.
> It doesn’t work with me.


What else has the eu done to dilute division in Ireland then?


----------



## philosophical (Jun 12, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> What else has the eu done to dilute division in Ireland then?


My example isn’t enough for you then? Although you don’t dispute it.
Do you think the Erasmus scheme helped cross border study, and as a ‘soft’ benefit developed better understanding between divided communities, especially in the context of the separateness of secondary schooling in Northern Ireland?
What are you expecting some kind of list?
What do you think is meant by the word ‘dilution’?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 12, 2022)

.


----------



## Maggot (Jun 12, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Ah yes, that heady combination of remain and  workers rights that Ax^  swims in
> 
> View attachment 326853


OOOH, one remainer against one strike. That's enough evidence for me. 

Mind mind all the EU legislation on pay, hours, equality, part-time workers, and the right to strike.


----------



## Colin Hunt (Jun 12, 2022)

Maggot said:


> Mind mind all the EU legislation on pay, hours, equality, part-time workers, and the right to strike.


The EU has systematically worked against workers' rights in recent years, as I've previously discussed here, here, and here. While the EU provided some benefits in many areas for workers, it remains a neoliberal institution and has been an architect of anti-worker law changes in its member states, particularly with regard to collective bargaining and the right to strike.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jun 12, 2022)

Maggot said:


> OOOH, one remainer against one strike. That's enough evidence for me.
> 
> Mind mind all the EU legislation on pay, hours, equality, part-time workers, and the right to strike.



I think Colin Hunt has comprehensively dealt with your main point, but I think it’s worth adding one other point. Adonis isn’t just ‘one remainer’, he’s an important and influential ‘thinker’ amongst  labour and liberal leaders. He’s the epitome, in fact, of the British professional middle class.


----------



## Ax^ (Jun 12, 2022)

Colin Hunt said:


> The EU has systematically worked against workers' rights in recent years, as I've previously discussed here, here, and here. While the EU provided some benefits in many areas for workers, it remains a neoliberal institution and has been an architect of anti-worker law changes in its member states, particularly with regard to collective bargaining and the right to strike.



and of course the Tory party enshrined worker right into the exit bill and are not treating the rights to strike atm

no wait


----------



## A380 (Jun 12, 2022)

Spymaster said:


> I reckon it was the bricklayers.
> 
> If every bricklayer who voted to leave had voted to remain, things would be different now, I can tell ya!


They had a real bond, it cemented the victory.


----------



## Yossarian (Jun 12, 2022)

A380 said:


> They had a real bond, it cemented the victory.



They must be mortarfied by how badly it's turned out.


----------



## A380 (Jun 12, 2022)

Yossarian said:


> They must be mortarfied by how badly it's turned out.


In the light of your response I'm throwing in the trowel.


----------



## A380 (Jun 12, 2022)

philosophical said:


> This is more than a bureaucratic level thing, it is a practical level thing.
> It stopped existing after 1993.
> 
> View attachment 326808


The main issue is that 3/10ths of a second after going operational it would look like:


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 12, 2022)

philosophical said:


> My example isn’t enough for you then? Although you don’t dispute it.
> Do you think the Erasmus scheme helped cross border study, and as a ‘soft’ benefit developed better understanding between divided communities, especially in the context of the separateness of secondary schooling in Northern Ireland?
> What are you expecting some kind of list?
> What do you think is meant by the word ‘dilution’?


i don't think that the removal of the border infrastructure you've mentioned, customs posts, diluted - reduced - division one iota. it did not lead to the island becoming a single unit in terms of planning, in terms of development, in terms of any form of policy setting. while the border posts might have gone in the early 90s, security checkpoints were still there until as a result of the gfa they were dismantled between 1998 and 2005. even so, the border is still there with taxation on one side very different from taxation on the other. donegal has not become tied in to its natural hinterland of derry or the other way round. the removal of the border infrastructure is basically cosmetic as on one side of it british law is enforced, and on the other irish. the essence of the conflict remains intact, namely that britain - despite claiming no selfish interest in the six counties - continues to hold it despite the clear iniquities of the division of ireland for the island's population both north and south.

the erasmus scheme is not taken up by many students from the six counties - 649 from the six counties in 2019/20. now the irish government will support ni students' use of erasmus (Erasmus for Northern Irish Students from September - Fine Gael). but i don't know where they study, if protestants from east belfast go to study in cork or galway, and i doubt you do either. and it's a peculiar choice when over the period in which the erasmus scheme has existed divisions - inequalities - have increased in english society, in german society, in french society - it would be a great surprise if the erasmus scheme had had anything more than a tangential impact on divisions in the six counties.

none of this answers my query about what the cm/eec/eu did to dilute division in ireland in the 20 years prior to the creation of the single market, for which you've been utterly silent.

as for superiority, i don't feel personally superior to you. but the arguments you advance especially on this point under discussion - well, they're so feeble you'd do better not to make them. because from everything you've said brussels did nothing to dilute division in the six counties or the twenty-six except what they were doing elsewhere, that in other words they did not care.


----------



## A380 (Jun 12, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> i don't think that the removal of the border infrastructure you've mentioned, customs posts, diluted - reduced - division one iota. it did not lead to the island becoming a single unit in terms of planning, in terms of development, in terms of any form of policy setting. while the border posts might have gone in the early 90s, security checkpoints were still there until as a result of the gfa they were dismantled between 1998 and 2005. even so, the border is still there with taxation on one side very different from taxation on the other. donegal has not become tied in to its natural hinterland of derry or the other way round. the removal of the border infrastructure is basically cosmetic as on one side of it british law is enforced, and on the other irish. the essence of the conflict remains intact, namely that britain - despite claiming no selfish interest in the six counties - continues to hold it despite the clear iniquities of the division of ireland for the island's population both north and south.
> 
> the erasmus scheme is not taken up by many students from the six counties - 649 from the six counties in 2019/20. now the irish government will support ni students' use of erasmus (Erasmus for Northern Irish Students from September - Fine Gael). but i don't know where they study, if protestants from east belfast go to study in cork or galway, and i doubt you do either. and it's a peculiar choice when over the period in which the erasmus scheme has existed divisions - inequalities - have increased in english society, in german society, in french society - it would be a great surprise if the erasmus scheme had had anything more than a tangential impact on divisions in the six counties.
> 
> ...



Pedants point. There was and remains a single policy between North and South for  electricity generation, distribution and supply. 

The whole of the island of Ireland is a synchronous transmission system and has a single market for electricity.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 12, 2022)

A380 said:


> Pedants point. There was and remains a single policy between North and South for  electricity generation, distribution and supply.
> 
> The whole of the island of Ireland is a synchronous transmission system and has a single market for electricity.


have your pedant's point. but i am not sure that was a european initiative


----------



## A380 (Jun 12, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> have your pedant's point. but i am not sure that was a european initiative



Uk / Ireland bilateral to the best of my knowledge.


----------



## Serge Forward (Jun 12, 2022)

Yossarian said:


> They must be mortarfied by how badly it's turned out.


Mortarfied? They're literally bricking it.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 12, 2022)

A380 said:


> Uk / Ireland bilateral to the best of my knowledge.


yeh i suspected the eu had nothing to do with it


----------



## Raheem (Jun 12, 2022)

Serge Forward said:


> Mortarfied? They're literally bricking it.


Where is all this pointing?


----------



## A380 (Jun 12, 2022)

Raheem said:


> Where is all this pointing?


Hod only knows.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 13, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> and of course the Tory party enshrined worker right into the exit bill and are not treating the rights to strike atm
> 
> no wait


I'm finding it increasingly difficult to understand anything you post tbh.


----------



## Ax^ (Jun 13, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> I'm finding it increasingly difficult to understand anything you post tbh.



oh do fuck off

you got that one right?

from someone who tagged me then posted a ransom tweet from Adonis about train strikes and you saying you have to figure out what I'm getting at twat


----------



## philosophical (Jun 13, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> i don't think that the removal of the border infrastructure you've mentioned, customs posts, diluted - reduced - division one iota. it did not lead to the island becoming a single unit in terms of planning, in terms of development, in terms of any form of policy setting. while the border posts might have gone in the early 90s, security checkpoints were still there until as a result of the gfa they were dismantled between 1998 and 2005. even so, the border is still there with taxation on one side very different from taxation on the other. donegal has not become tied in to its natural hinterland of derry or the other way round. the removal of the border infrastructure is basically cosmetic as on one side of it british law is enforced, and on the other irish. the essence of the conflict remains intact, namely that britain - despite claiming no selfish interest in the six counties - continues to hold it despite the clear iniquities of the division of ireland for the island's population both north and south.
> 
> the erasmus scheme is not taken up by many students from the six counties - 649 from the six counties in 2019/20. now the irish government will support ni students' use of erasmus (Erasmus for Northern Irish Students from September - Fine Gael). but i don't know where they study, if protestants from east belfast go to study in cork or galway, and i doubt you do either. and it's a peculiar choice when over the period in which the erasmus scheme has existed divisions - inequalities - have increased in english society, in german society, in french society - it would be a great surprise if the erasmus scheme had had anything more than a tangential impact on divisions in the six counties.
> 
> ...



Can you remind me where you specified the time period between 1973 and 1993?
Would you like to narrow down the impact of EU influence in Ireland to a specific day, and ask me to be specific about dilution at that moment?
The UK leaving the EU is presently ratcheting up tension in Ireland, why do you think that is? We will get more news about that dog’s dinner today.
I accept that you have moved from a position that my stance has no basis to it being ‘feeble’, I disagree that the removal of border infrastructure is a feeble or merely a bureaucratic event, so we have different opinions on that. 
Whether the EU specifically ‘cared’ about the specific situation in Ireland or not is irrelevant, what the EU did generally (you use the word elsewhere) was an aid to pan European harmony (less violence) which was a help to dilute the problems in Ireland.
If you say that both the UK and the ROI being in the EU at the same time had no upside then I disagree, for the reasons stated above.
If you want to go round and round on this issue fill your boots, you certainly won’t persuade me.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 13, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> oh do fuck off
> 
> you got that one right?
> 
> from someone who tagged me then posted a ransom tweet from Adonis about train strikes and you saying you have to figure out what I'm getting at twat


No need to be abusive chum, it's 0900hrs on a  Monday morning. BTW what is a ransom tweet?


----------



## Ax^ (Jun 13, 2022)

9 am on Monday morning is great time to be abusive you cunt


----------



## Maggot (Jun 13, 2022)

Remainer's Brexit is a delicious oxymoron.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 13, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> 9 am on Monday morning is great time to be abusive you cunt


Trust me , I'm not trying to be abusive . I'm simply saying that I have had problems understanding your most recent posts. For example what were you trying to say in this one ?



> and of course the Tory party enshrined worker right into the exit bill and are not treating the rights to strike atm


----------



## Ax^ (Jun 13, 2022)

oh piss off it 09:15 on a monday morning 


*sips tea


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 13, 2022)

philosophical said:


> Can you remind me where you specified the time period between 1973 and 1993?
> Would you like to narrow down the impact of EU influence in Ireland to a specific day, and ask me to be specific about dilution at that moment?
> The UK leaving the EU is presently ratcheting up tension in Ireland, why do you think that is? We will get more news about that dog’s dinner today.
> I accept that you have moved from a position that my stance has no basis to it being ‘feeble’, I disagree that the removal of border infrastructure is a feeble or merely a bureaucratic event, so we have different opinions on that.
> ...


i thought that as someone who claims to have given a spot of thought to ireland and brexit you'd actually know something of the subject and be able to rattle off a list of what the europeans had ever done for that island. instead you come up with two things which are tangential to the situation in ireland during the troubles, and don't er trouble yourself to look any further back than 1993. if there was ever a time to start to dilute divisions in ireland, i'd have thought that time was at some point between 1969 and 1994 when the ira ceasefire was announced. surely, i felt, you'd have put some small effort into finding out how brussels - be it brussels with a common market, a european economic community or european union hat on - had done _for ireland _(32 cos)_. _instead you come out with some tosh about the single market and erasmus, the first of which didn't really affect the crossing of the border for some years as security checkpoints only began to be removed following the gfa, the second of which can't be measured in terms of where people from the six counties went to study - though if you've had any better luck than i in finding that information i hope you'll share it.

i thought that _at the very least_ you'd have looked for a website like this Ireland's EU membership | Ireland European Commission, this article CAIN: Issues: Europe: The European Union and Relationships Within Ireland by Jeson Ingraham or this StackPath. i thought that you might even have mentioned this book Ireland and the European Union or this one The European Union and the Northern Ireland Peace Process. they say an empty vessel makes the loudest noise, and on this subject you've definitely been a far emptier vessel than i expected.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 13, 2022)

BBC article on fruit pickers









						UK farmers turn to Nepal and Tajikistan for fruit pickers
					

No longer able to rely on workers from places like Ukraine, the UK is recruiting from further afield.



					www.bbc.com
				






> Tim Chambers, who owns a network of 24 farms in south east England, has told the recruitment firms he doesn't want workers from countries like Indonesia, Vietnam or the Philippines.
> "It's not because I in any way have an issue with race, creed, or colour," he says. "[But] if you suddenly bring in a whole new country, culture, way of life, into your farm, it can cause major problems.
> "In terms of efficiency, a new recruit in the first season is 25% less productive," he says.
> "There will be cultural and lifestyle things too," he says.
> ...



This is the same entrepreneur who said in 2019



> The situation we as fruit farmers find ourselves in today is a scenario that periodically arises as the source of our labour becomes capable of rewarding its own workers to a level that makes them no longer economic migrants. Realistically, the government is going to have to allow workers from the next most economically impoverished nation into the country to undertake the work that UK citizens simply don’t want to do. Hence the solution to our labour problem is quite simple and has been solved countless times in the past, however the political will to make it happen is understandably not.
> 
> "We would be better placed to grow our crops in countries where the wages are lower and then airfreight the berries back to the UK."


----------



## two sheds (Jun 13, 2022)

They always say "work that UK citizens simply don’t want to do" rather than "work that we won't pay UK citizens a wage they can pay rent with"


----------



## Chilli.s (Jun 13, 2022)

Any excuse not to pay minimum wage


----------



## philosophical (Jun 13, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> i thought that as someone who claims to have given a spot of thought to ireland and brexit you'd actually know something of the subject and be able to rattle off a list of what the europeans had ever done for that island. instead you come up with two things which are tangential to the situation in ireland during the troubles, and don't er trouble yourself to look any further back than 1993. if there was ever a time to start to dilute divisions in ireland, i'd have thought that time was at some point between 1969 and 1994 when the ira ceasefire was announced. surely, i felt, you'd have put some small effort into finding out how brussels - be it brussels with a common market, a european economic community or european union hat on - had done _for ireland _(32 cos)_. _instead you come out with some tosh about the single market and erasmus, the first of which didn't really affect the crossing of the border for some years as security checkpoints only began to be removed following the gfa, the second of which can't be measured in terms of where people from the six counties went to study - though if you've had any better luck than i in finding that information i hope you'll share it.
> 
> i thought that _at the very least_ you'd have looked for a website like this Ireland's EU membership | Ireland European Commission, this article CAIN: Issues: Europe: The European Union and Relationships Within Ireland by Jeson Ingraham or this StackPath. i thought that you might even have mentioned this book Ireland and the European Union or this one The European Union and the Northern Ireland Peace Process. they say an empty vessel makes the loudest noise, and on this subject you've definitely been a far emptier vessel than i expected.



Yeah whatever.
I am not going to dance to your tune.
Put simply I believe that the ROI and the UK both being in the EU diluted some problems.
You don’t think it was enough, or significant.
We will find out a bit more today whether leave has increased some problems.
As for making the most noise, that is quite funny coming from a poster who seems to be here continually and commenting on nearly every thread. I for one have already got your repeated messages about ways Boris Johnson could die, don’t you think that line taken by you could be freshened up, not in order to make more noise, but to be less boring?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 13, 2022)

philosophical said:


> Yeah whatever.
> I am not going to dance to your tune.
> Put simply I believe that the ROI and the UK both being in the EU diluted some problems.
> You don’t think it was enough, or significant.
> ...


i don't think you're going to dance at all, certainly you've shown no agility over the past few years - simply repeating the same auld line, which is far duller than anything i've inflicted on these boards. if you think commenting on a range of subjects is a bad thing then i don't know why you bother posting here.


----------



## two sheds (Jun 13, 2022)

Thank fuck for this eh









						Arron Banks loses libel action against reporter Carole Cadwalladr
					

Judge rules Guardian journalist successfully established public interest defence under Defamation Act




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## contadino (Jun 13, 2022)

Arron Banks loses libel action against reporter Carole Cadwalladr
					

Judge rules Guardian journalist successfully established public interest defence under Defamation Act




					www.theguardian.com
				




So Aaron Banks was lying about having no replationship with the Russian state.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 13, 2022)

philosophical said:


> Put simply I believe that the ROI and the UK both being in the EU diluted some problems.
> You don’t think it was enough, or significant.


that's a complete misrepresentation of the posts above, i've said that _from what you've said _it was neither enough or significant. i made no comment on whether i thought what the eu had in fact done was enough or significant.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 13, 2022)

two sheds said:


> Thank fuck for this eh
> 
> 
> 
> ...


should have a rubbing hands with glee smiley - it's turned out nice again


----------



## two sheds (Jun 13, 2022)

contadino said:


> Arron Banks loses libel action against reporter Carole Cadwalladr
> 
> 
> Judge rules Guardian journalist successfully established public interest defence under Defamation Act
> ...


Not sure from the article, could I think have alternatively been a public interest in publishing the information. I didn't think he'd lose tbh, the judge made an initial ruling that seemed to make it very difficult for her.

Eta: let's hope the legal costs were nice and exorbitant


----------



## srb7677 (Jun 13, 2022)

two sheds said:


> This is I think a point you need to respond to srb7677


Not interested in anything he has to say. I am ignoring him after an excess of negativity and borderline trolling.

If anyone else wishes to make the same point - whatever it is - I may well respond to it if I feel the need.


----------



## Combustible (Jun 13, 2022)

contadino said:


> Arron Banks loses libel action against reporter Carole Cadwalladr
> 
> 
> Judge rules Guardian journalist successfully established public interest defence under Defamation Act
> ...


Not necessarily because she didn't rely on a defence of truth but on a public interest defence. The judge also seems to have found that she couldn't justify her statements on public interest grounds after the later report from the electoral commission, but by that point any damage to his reputation was done so continuing to publish the TED talk wasn't defamatory.


----------



## two sheds (Jun 13, 2022)

Yes:



> In a written judgment handed down on Monday, Mrs Justice Steyn ruled the threshold for serious harm had only been met in the Ted Talk but that Cadwalladr initially had successfully established a public interest defence under section 4 of the Defamation Act.
> 
> The defence fell away after the Electoral Commission found no evidence of law-breaking by Banks with respect to donations but by that time – 29 April 2020 – the court was not satisfied that the continuing publication of the TED Talk caused or was likely to cause serious harm to his reputation.
> 
> ...



That last sentence was the one that made me think he'd win. But apparently not .









						Arron Banks loses libel action against reporter Carole Cadwalladr
					

Judge rules Guardian journalist successfully established public interest defence under Defamation Act




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## editor (Jun 13, 2022)

And so it goes on









						Brexit helping cause harmful increase in fake ecstasy, study warns
					

Covid and crackdowns also blamed as researchers find half of pills sold as MDMA at festivals in England contained none of the drug




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## bimble (Jun 13, 2022)

This is good. I love having loads of pointlessly different wires tangled around the house .


----------



## srb7677 (Jun 13, 2022)

bimble said:


> This is good. I love having loads of pointlessly different wires tangled around the house .
> View attachment 327063


Well at least we will all have our blue passports.


----------



## bimble (Jun 13, 2022)

Maybe there’ll be a growing list of this sort of utterly pointless differentiation, to go with our plugs and driving on the wrong side of the road and all that, just to make us feel special.

But the non-funny stuff is the bit where today the gov released their post brexit food strategy which says they want ‘liberalisation’ of animal welfare standards for imports in their free trade agreements, which just means lower ones.


----------



## Ax^ (Jun 13, 2022)

breaking international law of North Ireland to secure support from hard line brexiters in the Tory party and the DUP

whilst showing that no deal with the UK can be trusted

*slow hand clap


----------



## gosub (Jun 13, 2022)

bimble said:


> Maybe there’ll be a growing list of this sort of utterly pointless differentiation, to go with our plugs and driving on the wrong side of the road and all that, just to make us feel special.


UK plugs are safer than ones without an earth and keeping oncoming traffic on the right hand side of you  a standard globally for millenias b4 Napoleon but other than that... Good point


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Jun 13, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> breaking international law of North Ireland to secure support from hard line brexiters in the Tory party and the DUP
> 
> whilst showing that no deal with the UK can be trusted
> 
> *slow hand clap


I heard that it is just a trivial adjustment...this was from the person who assured me that there were no lock down parties at his home...so it's more than likely all good.

Anyway here's to a united Ireland an independent Scotland and the English having to grow up a bit.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## bimble (Jun 13, 2022)

gosub said:


> UK plugs are safer than ones without an earth and keeping oncoming traffic on the right hand side of you  a standard globally for millenias b4 Napoleon but other than that... Good point


Is that true?
I never thought about it but mostly they’re not earthed are they ? Just read that the reason we have those big chunky plugs is because of a post war copper shortage


----------



## two sheds (Jun 13, 2022)

gosub said:


> UK plugs are safer than ones without an earth and keeping oncoming traffic on the right hand side of you  a standard globally for millenias b4 Napoleon but other than that... Good point


Although there are continental plugs with an earth.


----------



## gosub (Jun 13, 2022)

Most people right handed passing on the side of sword arm was convention. 


Plus the additional cover guard over the L & N the longer earth pushes out the way


----------



## Yossarian (Jun 13, 2022)

bimble said:


> This is good. I love having loads of pointlessly different wires tangled around the house .



"It's not about chargers, it's about freedom," wrote Minister for Brexit Opportunities Jacob Rees-Mogg, beckoning a servant to refill his inkwell.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 13, 2022)

bimble said:


> Is that true?
> I never thought about it but mostly they’re not earthed are they ? Just read that the reason we have those big chunky plugs is because of a post war copper shortage











						Government nearly half-way to recruiting 20,000 more officers
					

Figures show an extra 9,814 police officers have been recruited as the government launches its Beating Crime Plan.




					www.gov.uk


----------



## contadino (Jun 13, 2022)

two sheds said:


> Although there are continental plugs with an earth.


Yes, just like there are also UK plugs that don't use the earth, there are European plugs that have earth and those that don't.


----------



## srb7677 (Jun 13, 2022)

two sheds said:


> Although there are continental plugs with an earth.


But is there an earth with a plug? Would explain the tide going out.


----------



## bimble (Jun 13, 2022)

I would really love to get a fly on wall view of what’s going on in the Ministry For Brexit Opportunities. What are they doing in there haven’t heard anything since the idea about hoovers.


----------



## A380 (Jun 13, 2022)

bimble said:


> Maybe there’ll be a growing list of this sort of utterly pointless differentiation, to go with our plugs and driving on the wrong side of the road and all that, just to make us feel special.
> 
> But the non-funny stuff is the bit where today the gov released their post brexit food strategy which says they want ‘liberalisation’ of animal welfare standards for imports in their free trade agreements, which just means lower ones.



I am in no way a British nationalist. But our theee pin plugs (shared with Ireland, Hong Kong and parts of China) are definitely the best in the world.


----------



## two sheds (Jun 13, 2022)

A380 said:


> I am in no way a British nationalist. But our theee pin plugs (shared with Ireland, Hong Kong and parts of China) are definitely the best in the world.


yes can't argue with that, the continental ones are shite.

eta as in really difficult to wire up


----------



## A380 (Jun 13, 2022)

Louis MacNeice said:


> I heard that it is just a trivial adjustment...this was from the person who assured me that there were no lock down parties at his home...so it's more than likely all good.
> 
> Anyway here's to a united Ireland an independent Scotland and the English having to grow up a bit.
> 
> Cheers - Louis MacNeice



It’s the Welsh I feel sorry for. Locked in here with us…


----------



## bimble (Jun 13, 2022)

A380 said:


> I am in no way a British nationalist. But our theee pin plugs (shared with Ireland, Hong Kong and parts of China) are definitely the best in the world.


How are they better than the Swiss 3 pin ones? Which are less massive.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Jun 13, 2022)

A380 said:


> It’s the Welsh I feel sorry for. Locked in here with us…


Hopefully they'll get the message.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## gosub (Jun 13, 2022)

bimble said:


> How are they better than the Swiss 3 pin ones? Which are less massive.


That's coz they've only got neutral pins being swiss


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 13, 2022)

bimble said:


> This is good. I love having loads of pointlessly different wires tangled around the house .
> View attachment 327063


Just get one from Amazon they’ll have warehouses full of them .


----------



## MrSki (Jun 13, 2022)

A380 said:


> I am in no way a British nationalist. But our theee pin plugs (shared with Ireland, Hong Kong and parts of China) are definitely the best in the world.


What 'World beating'


----------



## Raheem (Jun 13, 2022)

Has Johnson announced the return of three-pin plugs yet?


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Jun 13, 2022)

Raheem said:


> Has Johnson announced the return of three-pin plugs yet?


I doubt he is aware of how many pins a plug has or even how to insert it; that sort of stuff is for others to do...I'm joking but only just.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## Ax^ (Jun 13, 2022)

bimble said:


> I would really love to get a fly on wall view of what’s going on in the Ministry For Brexit Opportunities. What are they doing in there haven’t heard anything since the idea about hoovers.



it mostly just ress mogg shouting at his nanny to stay up late each evening


----------



## T & P (Jun 13, 2022)

A380 said:


> I am in no way a British nationalist. But our theee pin plugs (shared with Ireland, Hong Kong and parts of China) are definitely the best in the world.


That’s the thing isn’t it? No country in the world has got everything absolutely right, and one would have to be a sad nationalist shit to pretend otherwise. UK three pin plugs are also best in my European mind. And bayonet bulbs are less likely to become disconnected over time than screw cups (don’t know if there are any technical or safety advantages of the latter over the former, though).

So I really hope we don’t go the way of the USA, where they employ certain units of measure and manufacturing standards that are both inferior and at odds with those of the majority if not the entire rest of the world. Like their fucking MM/DD/YYYY date system, or the prevalence to use or assume imperial measurements even in technological and scientific environments, which once led to a satellite being burnt up in the Martian atmosphere because NASA assumed the measurements provided by the ESA for tge mission were in god-fearing miles, feet and inches.

The rest of the world including Europe are mature enough to have let non-native customs prevail if they have become more commonplace. TV screen sizes are given in inches in the Continent, and nobody feels it constitutes an existential threat to their country’s identity. If only similar Johnny Foreigner transgressions were seen in the same light in the US, and increasingly in here, by the government and large sections of the voting public and press at least.


----------



## Cerv (Jun 13, 2022)

bimble said:


> This is good. I love having loads of pointlessly different wires tangled around the house .
> View attachment 327063


it's an irrelevance. Apple, Samsung, etc selling their phones all over the world aren't going to make separate SKUs just for the UK.
so when the EU imposes these standards, they'll become defacto standards in the UK market too. only now the UK government has no input into the drafting of those standards anymore.

there are other cases where diverging product rules between UK to EU will actually might result in a difference to what we get in the UK. but it's not consumer electronics mass produced in China by foreign multinationals.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 13, 2022)

T & P said:


> That’s the thing isn’t it? No country in the world has got everything absolutely right, and one would have to be a sad nationalist shit to pretend otherwise. UK three pin plugs are also best in my European mind. And bayonet bulbs are less likely to become disconnected over time than screw cups (don’t know if there are any technical or safety advantages of the latter over the former, though).
> 
> So I really hope we don’t go the way of the USA, where they employ certain units of measure and manufacturing standards that are both inferior and at odds with those of the majority if not the entire rest of the world. Like their fucking MM/DD/YYYY date system, or the prevalence to use or assume imperial measurements even in technological and scientific environments, which once led to a satellite being burnt up in the Martian atmosphere because NASA assumed the measurements provided by the ESA for tge mission were in god-fearing miles, feet and inches.
> 
> The rest of the world including Europe are mature enough to have let non-native customs prevail if they have become more commonplace. TV screen sizes are given in inches in the Continent, and nobody feels it constitutes an existential threat to their country’s identity. If only similar Johnny Foreigner transgressions were seen in the same light in the US, and increasingly in here, by the government and large sections of the voting public and press at least.


Very good example of TV sizes not being metric


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 13, 2022)

bimble said:


> Is that true?
> I never thought about it but mostly they’re not earthed are they ? Just read that the reason we have those big chunky plugs is because of a post war copper shortage




Our leccy and plugs are truly world beating. And three EU states drive on the left.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 13, 2022)

bimble said:


> I would really love to get a fly on wall view of what’s going on in the Ministry For Brexit Opportunities. What are they doing in there haven’t heard anything since the idea about hoovers.




They are rimming Rees Mogg 24/7 and you would love to see it, always knew you was a wrong’un.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 13, 2022)

We have the leccy system that we do cos they thought there would be limitless supply cos nuclear, so built a system that could take a heft voltage, 240v. And that’s what we have. In the US folk don’t have kettles cos their wimpy leccy can’t boil one…


----------



## two sheds (Jun 13, 2022)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Our leccy and plugs are truly world beating. And three EU states drive on the left.


sure that wasn't just you?


----------



## two sheds (Jun 13, 2022)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> We have the leccy system that we do cos they thought there would be limitless supply cos nuclear, so built a system that could take a heft voltage, 240v. And that’s what we have. In the US folk don’t have kettles cos their wimpy leccy can’t boil one…


although with the different +/- tolerances 240 V is the same as 220 V.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 13, 2022)

two sheds said:


> sure that wasn't just you?




Strong continental lagers, in it.


----------



## bimble (Jun 14, 2022)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> They are rimming Rees Mogg 24/7 and you would love to see it, always knew you was a wrong’un.


i should send in my cv.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jun 14, 2022)

Super powered Hoover's will make the last 8 years worth it


----------



## MrSki (Jun 14, 2022)

Artaxerxes said:


> Super powered Hoover's will make the last 8 years worth it


Don't forget lawnmowers. They were restricted too.


----------



## flypanam (Jun 14, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> breaking international law of North Ireland to secure support from hard line brexiters in the Tory party and the DUP
> 
> whilst showing that no deal with the UK can be trusted
> 
> *slow hand clap


Aye true enough, but this legislation going through actually makes life difficult for the DUP. First they have to join the Stormont administration led by O’Neill and second anything that affects the performance of the Northern economy (whether it be reduced access to Europe or a global meltdown) will be laid at their doorstep. If anything this legislation could actually fracture unionism further.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 14, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> breaking international law of North Ireland to secure support from hard line brexiters in the Tory party and the DUP
> 
> whilst showing that no deal with the UK can be trusted
> 
> *slow hand clap


That's a real improvement. I can understand this post, even though I disagree with some of the sentiment. 

Thanks


----------



## Ax^ (Jun 14, 2022)

this from a guy who linked to a government page about recruiting police officers on a brexit thread


tell me I'm talking ballocks when you are now cheerleading Tory policy

get to fuck all ready


----------



## brogdale (Jun 16, 2022)

"Phil"


----------



## ska invita (Jun 16, 2022)

T & P said:


> That’s the thing isn’t it? No country in the world has got everything absolutely right, and one would have to be a sad nationalist shit to pretend otherwise. UK three pin plugs are also best in my European mind. And bayonet bulbs are less likely to become disconnected over time than screw cups (don’t know if there are any technical or safety advantages of the latter over the former, though).



have to disagree on the lightbulbs - the bayonet action (Push In and Turn) can damage the socket over time and loosen it, a screw in is much more long lasting. Ive been in charge of lightbulbs as part of my work duties in my life and only ever had to replace bayonet fittings .

Strip lights are fucking shit and hopefully will be a thing of the past soon once LED becomes ubiquitous.

There are some other little shit fittings too, the one with two little circular knobs on, but lets leave it there before my blood pressure gets up


----------



## two sheds (Jun 16, 2022)

ska invita said:


> There are some other little shit fittings too, the one with two little circular knobs on, but lets leave it there before my blood pressure gets up


GU10 - I came on here to throw some insults at them


----------



## ska invita (Jun 16, 2022)

two sheds said:


> GU10 - I came on here to throw some insults at them











						to think that whoever designed and created the GU10 halogen lamp is a fucking maniac and an altogether Bad Thing? - Mumsnet
					

Fucking sodding fucking GU10 halogen bulbs. What fucking maniac designed them?  I've spent 35 minutes changing 2 of them. The third is still waiting...




					www.mumsnet.com


----------



## two sheds (Jun 16, 2022)

I've got a fucking GU10 that doesn't fit the fucking socket - I assume the fucking socket pins are bent.


----------



## Ax^ (Jun 16, 2022)

Blames nato



*shakes pins at the sky


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 16, 2022)

two sheds said:


> GU10 - I came on here to throw some insults at them


I've got them in the bathrooms, hallway  and kitchen . Fiddly little fuckers and to make matters worse you have to make sure they have the exact same pattern or clear or opaque thing on the front otherwise they don't match. I tend to buy them in fours to avoid all that. tbf they do last a while


----------



## Ax^ (Jun 16, 2022)

light bulbs on a brexit thread

the great comparison


heard they made henry hoovers weaker as well...


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 17, 2022)




----------



## Yossarian (Jun 17, 2022)

"Vote Leave to shake things up and wipe the smiles off the faces of smug politicians."


----------



## Ax^ (Jun 17, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> That's a real improvement. I can understand this post, even though I disagree with some of the sentiment.
> 
> Thanks



what sentiment do you disagree with btw


----------



## steeplejack (Jun 20, 2022)

Long read on the real economic costs of Brexit in today's _FT._ The political mood of the country is sumamrised: "_British politicians — and the wider country — are still traumatised by the bitter Brexit saga, and deeply unwilling to revisit it". _Interesting that it points out that Shur Kieth is just as fucked by any re-opening of the Brexit debate as the Tories.

worth a look- The Deafening Silence over Brexit's economic fallout


----------



## ska invita (Jun 20, 2022)

steeplejack said:


> Long read on the real economic costs of Brexit in today's _FT._ The political mood of the country is sumamrised: "_British politicians — and the wider country — are still traumatised by the bitter Brexit saga, and deeply unwilling to revisit it". _Interesting that it points out that Shur Kieth is just as fucked by any re-opening of the Brexit debate as the Tories.
> 
> worth a look- The Deafening Silence over Brexit's economic fallout


summary

lowest growth in the G20, apart from sanctioned Russia.

 Brexit would ultimately reduce productivity and UK gross domestic product by 4 per cent compared with a world where the country remained inside the EU. It says that a little over half of that damage has yet to occur.
 That level of decline, worth about £100bn a year in lost output, would result in lost revenues for the Treasury of roughly £40bn a year. That is £40bn that might have been available to the beleaguered Johnson for the radical tax cuts demanded by the Tory right — the equivalent of 6p off the 20p in the pound basic rate of income tax.

 The first and most obvious economic blow delivered by Brexit came when sterling fell almost 10 per cent after the referendum in June 2016, against currencies that match the UK’s pattern of imports. It did not recover. This sharp depreciation was not followed by a boom in exports as UK goods and services became cheaper on global markets, but it did raise the price of imports and pushed up inflation.

 By June 2018, a team of academic economists at the Centre for Economic Policy Research calculated that there had been a Brexit inflation effect, raising consumer prices by 2.9 per cent, with no corresponding increase in wages.

 results have been increasingly ugly, especially for small companies trading with Europe. Red tape caused a “steep decline” in the number of trading relationships after January 2021, according to a study by the Centre for Economic Performance at the London School of Economics. The number of buyer-seller relationships fell by almost one-third, it found. 

The same group found food prices had risen as a result of Brexit. Comparing the prices of imported food such as pork, tomatoes and jam, which predominantly came from the EU, with those that came from further afield such as tuna and pineapples, it found a substantial Brexit effect. “Brexit increased average food prices by about 6 per cent over 2020 and 2021,” according to the research.

 “everybody else sees a recovery in trade following Covid and the UK sits flat”.

 In the first quarter of 2022, real business investment was 9.4 per cent lower than in the second quarter of 2016. That fall was mostly due to Covid, but it had flatlined since the referendum, ending a period of growth since 2010 and falling well short of the performance of other G7 countries. .....  negative perceptions of the UK have continued among business with the chancellor finding he had little bang for his £25bn buck of super deductions in corporation tax to encourage capital spending.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 20, 2022)

ska invita said:


> summary
> 
> lowest growth in the G20, apart from sanctioned Russia.
> 
> ...


tbh it's a tribute to the country's resilience that despite a dozen years of tory misrule, and six years of shit since the referendum, things are flatlining rather than going into freefall


----------



## Ax^ (Jun 20, 2022)

but blueish black passports to hold whilst queuing in customs


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 20, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> but blueish black passports to hold whilst queuing in customs


does anyone queue in customs? never seen that at all.


----------



## ska invita (Jun 20, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> does anyone queue in customs? never seen that at all.


ive never seen anyone get a luggage search in Nothing To Declare - or even any staff there - If I were smuggling something id recommend to go through nothing to declare <Top Tip


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 20, 2022)

ska invita said:


> ive never seen anyone get a luggage search in Nothing To Declare - or even any staff there - If I were smuggling something id recommend to go through nothing to declare <Top Tip


i've had a search in nothing to declare. one of the hazards of travelling while a teenager.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jun 20, 2022)

steeplejack said:


> worth a look- The Deafening Silence over Brexit's economic fallout



Behind a paywall when I try to access it.


----------



## Lurdan (Jun 20, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Behind a paywall when I try to access it.





			archive.ph


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 20, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> does anyone queue in customs?




You do in Lahore. If Pakistan joined the EU that queue would vanish, for sure. Would probably solve the agg between there and India, seeing as the EU has brought peace to Europe since the 1940’s. Apart from that genocide in the 1990’s. And the current shit, of course.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Jun 22, 2022)

> Brexit will reduce the future wages of workers across Britain, a think tank has said, as experts revealed which areas will be worst hit.
> 
> According to a report by the Resolution Foundation, in partnership with LSE, pay packets will be £470 lower per worker every year by 2030 compared to if the UK had remained in the EU.
> 
> ...











						Brexit: The UK area that will see the biggest drop in wages
					

Leaving the trading bloc has reduced how open and competitive Britain’s economy is, researchers have found.




					uk.news.yahoo.com


----------



## Anju (Jun 22, 2022)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Brexit: The UK area that will see the biggest drop in wages
> 
> 
> Leaving the trading bloc has reduced how open and competitive Britain’s economy is, researchers have found.
> ...


Nothing to worry about though as they're going to remove restrictions on executives renumeration so it will even out as ordinary people can just get a second or third job working for one of the newly lured businesses. 









						UK Weighs Dropping Curbs on Executive Pay to Lure Firms
					

The UK government is studying plans to relax restrictions on executives’ remuneration to make the City of London more appealing to businesses post-Brexit.




					www.bloomberg.com


----------



## Ax^ (Jun 22, 2022)

but wait we broken away from the Neoliberalism Baggage of the EU

its not like the Tory believe in trickled down economics and voters as consumers


----------



## TopCat (Jun 23, 2022)

Six years ago the UK voted to leave the EU. Brexit remains ‘open wound’ for EU citizens living in UK

_I decided to apply for British citizenship, not because I wanted to be British, but so I could sleep at night again. When I got my British passport, I spat on it.”_


----------



## brogdale (Jun 23, 2022)

TopCat said:


> Six years ago the UK voted to leave the EU. Brexit remains ‘open wound’ for EU citizens living in UK
> 
> _I decided to apply for British citizenship, not because I wanted to be British, but so I could sleep at night again. When I got my British passport, I spat on it.”_


Ah, it's independence day, is it?


----------



## philosophical (Jun 23, 2022)

The vote was to leave.
Whatever motivated diverse people to vote was compressed into a binary choice, leave or remain.
Leave means having a different system between two entities with a line of demarcation in between.
One part of that line is a land border which right now is fully open.
Whatever is called Brexit is not the same as leave.
Leavers who go on about the democratic will of the people have yet to experience it, there is a ‘democratic deficit’ that loads voting leave fail to acknowledge.


----------



## bimble (Jun 23, 2022)

This is what The Ministry For  Brexit Opportunities has been up to they made this website:

https://public.tableau.com/app/prof.../UKGovernment-RetainedEULawDashboard/Guidance  which Rees-Mogg proudly announced yesterday.

Its got all the retained EU laws listed on it and the very serious idea is that the great british public will be able to write to Jacob to tell him which ones they want rid of, and we will get to "count down" as they're removed 1 by 1.

Same as all of it, since back before the referendum, this isn't about laws at all its just another pathetic stunt hoping to stir up the same old divisions which they know are their best & only chance of clinging to power.

Here he is talking about it in HOC, just reminding everyone he still hasn't got any idea what the benefits might be that he's supposed to be ministering.


What a massive waste of time & resources would be funny if it wasn't so sad.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 23, 2022)

TopCat said:


> Six years ago the UK voted to leave the EU. Brexit remains ‘open wound’ for EU citizens living in UK
> 
> _I decided to apply for British citizenship, not because I wanted to be British, but so I could sleep at night again. When I got my British passport, I spat on it.”_


it's the best way to get the blue to shine


----------



## Maggot (Jun 23, 2022)




----------



## Yossarian (Jun 23, 2022)

"Brexit 'not Brexity enough,' Brexiteer-in-chief complains on Brexiversary"


----------



## two sheds (Jun 23, 2022)

philosophical said:


> The vote was to leave.
> Whatever motivated diverse people to vote was compressed into a binary choice, leave or remain.
> Leave means having a different system between two entities with a line of demarcation in between.
> One part of that line is a land border which right now is fully open.
> ...


Yes but what do you think about the Ireland question? You always seem to ignore that.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 23, 2022)

two sheds said:


> Yes but what do you think about the Ireland question? You always seem to ignore that.


i think we should be tolled


----------



## two sheds (Jun 23, 2022)

He borders on ignoring the question altogether.


----------



## Raheem (Jun 23, 2022)

Yossarian said:


> View attachment 328592


"I'm never eating here again! I hope you're not expecting a tip!"


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jun 23, 2022)

steeplejack said:


> Long read on the real economic costs of Brexit in today's _FT._ The political mood of the country is sumamrised: "_British politicians — and the wider country — are still traumatised by the bitter Brexit saga, and deeply unwilling to revisit it". _Interesting that it points out that Shur Kieth is just as fucked by any re-opening of the Brexit debate as the Tories.
> 
> worth a look- The Deafening Silence over Brexit's economic fallout



I've now had the chance to read this. I have also read some of the other articles posted up here subsequently. The FT piece isn't bad. It is quite correct to suggest that Johnson and Starmer, and the parties that they lead, do not have an idea, or a convincing vision, of the type of economic landscape that needs to be adopted post-Brexit and that large swathes of Britian's political and narrating class is currently paralyzed as a result: rabbits in the economic headlights. The article doesn't say, but should, that one effect of this is that they do not have a serious approach to dealing with the current crisis either, caused by rising prices and inflation caused by excessive corporate profit and the historically unprecedented transfer of wealth from us to the 1%. A process which frankly dwarves the sum of £40bn discussed by the FT in its article.

The article also, conveniently, overlooks 40 years of economic activity and policy making in the UK - whilst it was part of the EU economic arrangements - that perhaps better suggests why the UK economy is tanking and why wages are falling. Low levels of investment, poor productivity, a lack of international competitiveness and exports failing to keep up with imports are not problems that have arisen in the last 5 years. They have been gradually embedding facts and deformities of the British economy since 1973. The manufactured goods base in the accounts for less than 10% of the economy: the smallest in the G7 and across much of Europe. Almost everything that we buy – TVs, washing machines, mobile phones – is imported (and imported from outside of the EU) and has been for decades. Britain has not had a trade surplus for almost 50 years and our trade deficit has grown each year (arguably the decline has been sped up since the pandemic and Brexit but the underlying trend is much longer run).  So, when economists say that the British economy is performing worse than the EU (which is true, but is merely comparing two dreadful economic forecasts) they are correct but conveniently overlook the structural economic reasons.

The reality is that in or out of the EU the grim spectre of the Thatcherite market economy on the British economy and its operation for the last 40 plus years has led to decades of falling wages, a historic rise in the gini coefficient that measures inequality, a collapse in the ability of ordinary people to build decent lives and an economy floating on a sea of debt, credit and property speculation. Money is used to buy money. It is not invested, it is accumulated and retained.

What would be a disaster for the left, compounding other disasters, would be to now swim along with liberalism in assuming that the answer and the necessary debate about these systemic problems is best done through the prism of the EU. What is needed instead is a vision for what a better economy: based on economic justice, collective bargaining and a generational shift in money and wealth away from the 1% and back towards the rest of us: and to consider how that might be achieved post Brexit. Neither the EU or the existing order in the UK offers anything like this.

As we are on the Brexit thread I will say again that its real tragedy was the defeat of a disorientated Labour leadership and a manifesto that at least pointed in that direction, and would _in a post Brexit economy _have taken a small but seismically important step away from the path we've been on since 1973. As for those who say an alternative vision is too ambitious and can't be done I'd point out that the left used to possess such ambition and ideas and went out and argued for them and stood by them:. In fact, in 1973 the Labour Party's Alterative Economic Strategy set out an economic plan - also ground in an anguished debate about the EU - based on a political understanding of economic policy as class struggle and aimed to impose greater working class political control on each of the forms of capital and approach that in 2022 is essential to unpick the damage of the last 50 years. Perhaps, the need - and the method of achieving it - for a similar strategy is a more pressing question than which form of neo-liberal economic arrangements is the least worst?


----------



## Dandred (Jun 23, 2022)

Anyone know which MPs and Lords, or is this just a false claim?


----------



## philosophical (Jun 23, 2022)

two sheds said:


> Yes but what do you think about the Ireland question? You always seem to ignore that.



Ideally Ireland would be one single country administered from Dublin, but as part of a pan European system that also includes Wales, Scotland, England and countries in mainland Europe. Given the climate crisis that has to be faced, I would also like to see a decent pan global system of some benevolent kind.
As far as the vote to leave is concerned what I want wasn't an option.
Leave has not been implemented as voted for.


----------



## two sheds (Jun 23, 2022)

Although Wales and England voted for Brexit. And I'm not sure you can blame brexit voters for leave not being implemented as voted for. I'm sure we'd be nearly as much in the shit if we'd stayed in Europe. I didn't vote because whichever side won, the tories were going to be in power. If we'd stayed in Europe I'm sure Johnson would have fucked that up, too, perhaps for example by cutting the NHS budget by an extra £350 million a week.


----------



## Ranbay (Jun 23, 2022)

as voted for?

was in or out on the card wasn't it not?


----------



## two sheds (Jun 23, 2022)

true but Johnson et al made all sorts of broken promises that I'm sure swayed a lot of people.


----------



## Ranbay (Jun 23, 2022)

two sheds said:


> true but Johnson et al made all sorts of broken promises that I'm sure swayed a lot of people.



Farage gave out the old Norway deal speech about 100 times...  there was so many people spouting so many versions and ideas...  Nobody gave a clear single version of what it was going to be.... other than a cluster fuck which everyone else knew.


----------



## Ranbay (Jun 23, 2022)

Posted this on my Facebook in 2016


----------



## Ax^ (Jun 23, 2022)

Dandred said:


> Anyone know which MPs and Lords, or is this just a false claim?
> 
> View attachment 328625



if I remember from straight after the vote you had figures like Iain Paisley son coming out telling people to get an Irish passport thought that was very telling


----------



## Yossarian (Jun 23, 2022)

What I posted on 17 June, 2016:



Yossarian said:


> I'll vote for a Lexit when Britain starts electing itself leftist governments. Until then, there's no use shifting power from Brussels to the horrible Tory cunts running the country.
> 
> A "Leave" vote isn't a vote against capitalism, it's a vote to get in bed with the Ukippers and no good will come of it.



In response, I think some bellend asked me to declare my income.


----------



## Dandred (Jun 23, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> if I remember from straight after the vote you had figures like Iain Paisley son coming out telling people to get an Irish passport thought that was very telling


I can find plenty of articles from 2016 saying that MP were doing this, I just wonder were this figure of 321 has come from.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 23, 2022)

philosophical said:


> Ideally Ireland would be one single country administered from Dublin, but as part of a pan European system that also includes Wales, Scotland, England and countries in mainland Europe. Given the climate crisis that has to be faced, I would also like to see a decent pan global system of some benevolent kind.
> As far as the vote to leave is concerned what I want wasn't an option.
> Leave has not been implemented as voted for.


why do you think it should be a unitary state run from dublin as opposed to, say, federal as proposed by _eire nua_?


----------



## bimble (Jun 23, 2022)

i note that  Lord Frost celebrated the day by announcing that "brexit is working".
Normally in order to say whether a thing is working or not, you have know first what it is supposed to do and can look and say yes its doing that (eg a bucket is working if it holds water). By this measure alone, his is an astonishing claim.


----------



## two sheds (Jun 23, 2022)

They're still in power so it's working for them


----------



## stdP (Jun 23, 2022)

bimble said:


> Normally in order to say whether a thing is working or not, you have know first what it is supposed to do and can look and say yes its doing that (eg a bucket is working if it holds water). By this measure alone, his is an astonishing claim.



I suspect he's collected a _lot_ of underpants, so by that measure the plan is going very well so far.


----------



## Raheem (Jun 23, 2022)

Dandred said:


> Anyone know which MPs and Lords, or is this just a false claim?
> 
> View attachment 328625


I definitely couldn't name them, so it must be made up.


----------



## Ax^ (Jun 23, 2022)

bimble said:


> i note that  Lord Frost celebrated the day by announcing that "brexit is working".
> Normally in order to say whether a thing is working or not, you have know first what it is supposed to do and can look and say yes its doing that (eg a bucket is working if it holds water). By this measure alone, his is an astonishing claim.



this the same guy who continuing tries to blame the EU for the problem with the exit bill and north ireland protocol that he brought into effect 

he a strange fellow at the best of times


----------



## Dandred (Jun 23, 2022)

Raheem said:


> I definitely couldn't name them, so it must be made up.


I would have thought there must have been some kind of list..... to get an exact figure, if you can or can't name them is beside the point.


----------



## philosophical (Jun 23, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> why do you think it should be a unitary state run from dublin as opposed to, say, federal as proposed by _eire nua_?


In order to become a decently functioning unitary state it would take rapprochement between the divided society particularly in the North.
I would say tackling that difficult scenario would be a starting point.


----------



## andysays (Jun 23, 2022)

philosophical said:


> The vote was to leave.
> Whatever motivated diverse people to vote was compressed into a binary choice, leave or remain.
> Leave means having a different system between two entities with a line of demarcation in between.
> One part of that line is a land border which right now is fully open.
> ...


----------



## Ax^ (Jun 23, 2022)

hmm tbf to philos he coming at it as someone from north ireland

quite a few people care over their , the problem is that the UK really did not take the impact of the leave vote for most of the other
parts  within the united kingdom

wales was just turkeys voting for Christmas and the Scots and North ireland population voted to remain


----------



## Ax^ (Jun 23, 2022)




----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 23, 2022)

Ax^ said:


>


Should have read the small print


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 23, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> hmm tbf to philos he coming at it as someone from north ireland
> 
> quite a few people care over their , the problem is that the UK really did not take the impatch of the leave vote for most of the other
> parts  within the united kingdom
> ...


He knows nothing about the EU and the six counties (or the 26 for that matter) as we established the other week


----------



## philosophical (Jun 23, 2022)

andysays said:


> View attachment 328660





Pickman's model said:


> He knows nothing about the EU and the six counties (or the 26 for that matter) as we established the other week



'We.'
LOL


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 23, 2022)

philosophical said:


> 'We.'
> LOL


You and me


----------



## philosophical (Jun 24, 2022)

‘You and me’
LOL.
Your modus operandi of desperate need to try to be superior to others, without offering anything of your own, means I would never ever establish anything with you.
Go back to your imaginary hoards who you might believe have your back.
My take on the implications of the vote to leave has been consistent and openly expressed, your take on many other posters is to try and fail to mock them.
You are a chameleon with no rock to rest on.


----------



## Ranbay (Jun 24, 2022)

Ax^ said:


>


----------



## ska invita (Jun 27, 2022)

We have arrived at Lexit - according to the Telegraph


----------



## A380 (Jun 27, 2022)

But there can be CROWNS on Pint glasses in spoons!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## two sheds (Jun 27, 2022)

Socialism = making millions of people poorer


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jun 27, 2022)

ska invita said:


> We have arrived at Lexit - according to the Telegraph
> 
> View attachment 329155



Great stuff, combining - as it does - all of the villains and specters currently haunting British neo-liberal cheerleaders.

Mind you, even I didn't envisage a Tory PM introducing subsidies to protect the British steel industry.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jun 27, 2022)

ska invita said:


> We have arrived at Lexit - according to the Telegraph
> 
> View attachment 329155





Comrades we did it!


----------



## bimble (Jun 27, 2022)

my new shoes have been stuck in customs for a week  serves me right should've bought some shit ones from china.


----------



## gosub (Jun 27, 2022)

Ranbay said:


> Farage gave out the old Norway deal speech about 100 times...  there was so many people spouting so many versions and ideas...  Nobody gave a clear single version of what it was going to be.... other than a cluster fuck which everyone else knew.


I don't think Farage did.  Norway deal would have had free movement. Which is hardly comparable with what Farage agitates for

Turned out Norway was anon runner an option cos the other members of EFTA had concerns about the size of the UK in relation to them. Which is a shame. I think anyway


----------



## ska invita (Jun 27, 2022)

gosub said:


> I don't think Farage did.  Norway deal would have had free movement. Which is hardly comparable with what Farage agitates for
> 
> Turned out Norway was anon runner an option cos the other members of EFTA had concerns about the size of the UK in relation to them. Which is a shame. I think anyway


Google Farage Norway, lots of examples


----------



## Ranbay (Jun 27, 2022)

gosub said:


> I don't think Farage did.  Norway deal would have had free movement. Which is hardly comparable with what Farage agitates for
> 
> Turned out Norway was anon runner an option cos the other members of EFTA had concerns about the size of the UK in relation to them. Which is a shame. I think anyway


----------



## gosub (Jun 27, 2022)

Ranbay said:


>



Ah I actually personally believed in the a Norway route. I don't see how a bloke who put out that billboard he did or who addresses TV from a boat in the channel could do though


----------



## gosub (Jun 27, 2022)

gosub said:


> Ah I actually personally believed in the a Norway route. I don't see how a bloke who put out that billboard he did or who addresses TV from a boat in the channel could do though


But then we didn't get a national interest Brexit. We got a UKIP tanks on Tory lawns one


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 27, 2022)

Ranbay said:


>



on a wing and a prayer


----------



## Elpenor (Jun 27, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> on a wing and a prayer
> View attachment 329192


Surely someone should have photoshopped in a pint of British ale in his hand


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 27, 2022)

Elpenor said:


> Surely someone should have photoshopped in a pint of British ale in his hand


i'd rather they'd have placed a propeller in his head


----------



## eatmorecheese (Jun 27, 2022)

ska invita said:


> We have arrived at Lexit - according to the Telegraph
> 
> View attachment 329155


Is Tim Stanley related to Tucker Carlson? Or Patrick Bateman?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 27, 2022)

eatmorecheese said:


> Is Tim Stanley related to Tucker Carlson? Or Patrick Bateman?


Distantly


----------



## gosub (Jun 27, 2022)

ska invita said:


> We have arrived at Lexit - according to the Telegraph
> 
> View attachment 329155


Can somebody wake me up when we get to luxury communism


----------



## bimble (Jun 27, 2022)

ska invita said:


> We have arrived at Lexit - according to the Telegraph
> 
> View attachment 329155


This is the genius of the Brexit isn’t it, everybody can stay pissed off and resentful, I would be really surprised if there’s a single person in the whole country who is happy with the brexit they are having.


----------



## philosophical (Jun 28, 2022)

The nightmare develops with the launch of an attempt to change the agreed Northern Irish protocol.
The vote was ‘leave’.
It hasn’t happened.
What people call ‘Brexit’ is not ‘leave’.
There remains the ‘democratic deficit’.
Those who voted leave are responsible for this particular nightmare, not those who voted remain.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 28, 2022)

we have always been at way with eastasia


----------



## Ax^ (Jun 28, 2022)

damn the EU for expecting the British to stick to agreements they made

and forget the population of North Ireland who are in favour of the protocol, we their unionist master will tell them what they like


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 28, 2022)

When Johnson and co skip off to war, could be time for another Rising....

Got to grab those opportunities.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 28, 2022)

krtek a houby said:


> When Johnson and co skip off to war, come be time for another Rising....
> 
> Got to grab those opportunities.


it is for just this reason that there is no general post office in belfast


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 28, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> it is for just this reason that there is no general post office in belfast



The revolution will be emailed


----------



## contadino (Jun 28, 2022)

krtek a houby said:


> When Johnson and co skip off to war, could be time for another Rising....
> 
> Got to grab those opportunities.


The problem is they don't skip off to war. They create a war, and then fuck off somewhere safe.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 28, 2022)

contadino said:


> The problem is they don't skip off to war. They create a war, and then fuck off somewhere safe.


where is this war they have created?


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 28, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> where is this war they have created?



War ina Babylon


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 28, 2022)

krtek a houby said:


> War ina Babylon


i daresay that that was going long before johnson was a glint in a lab technician's eyes


----------



## bimble (Jun 29, 2022)

Brilliant! We couldn’t have this if we were still in the EU. 









						UK to lift import restrictions on food from Fukushima
					

Remaining curbs on food imports imposed after 2011 nuclear disaster to be scrapped




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Ax^ (Jun 29, 2022)

radioactive mushrooms from japan


well that the brexit arguement sorted


----------



## Chilli.s (Jun 29, 2022)

So just a lowering of food standards that enables some businesses the opportunity to sell inferior (used to be banned) goods to poor people


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 29, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> radioactive mushrooms from japan
> 
> 
> well that the brexit arguement sorted


It is expected to allow the UK to fill its quota of superheroes by 2035


----------



## Ax^ (Jun 29, 2022)

working class across this country after we start importing the radioactive mushrooms









also explains why the  wittering  on about leveling up


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 29, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> It is expected to allow the UK to fill its quota of superheroes by 2035



So true. Over here we fly to and from work every day.


----------



## two sheds (Jun 29, 2022)

You people are always complaining.  Food you won't need to microwave


----------



## MickiQ (Jun 29, 2022)

two sheds said:


> You people are always complaining.  Food you won't need to microwave


A whole new meaning to the phrase "Ready Cooked Meal"


----------



## Ax^ (Jun 29, 2022)

Full English breakfast with a side order of Godzilla

beats hash browns anyday


----------



## Fuzzy (Jun 29, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> on a wing and a prayer
> View attachment 329192


so close to changing the course of history


----------



## bimble (Jun 30, 2022)

More great deregulation news. It didn’t have to be like this. 








						UK government to scrap European law protecting special habitats
					

Environment secretary George Eustice wants to amend Habitats Directive, which protects Natura 2000 sites




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 30, 2022)

bimble said:


> More great deregulation news. It didn’t have to be like this.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


pity we can't just scrap eustice


----------



## Chilli.s (Jun 30, 2022)

it seems that european standards were actually loads better than anything our rulers are prepared to offer, and a leave vote was a vote to have worse


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 30, 2022)

Chilli.s said:


> it seems that european standards were actually loads better than anything our rulers are prepared to offer, and a leave vote was a vote to have worse


Well apart from standards on minimum annual leave , maternity pay etc and that very often there was no point in coming up with something different as the Directives applied to the U.K. but I see where you are coming from .


----------



## Ax^ (Jun 30, 2022)

unless you are in France mind


----------



## Spymaster (Jun 30, 2022)

So, 6 months on and the country hasn't imploded financially, everyone's travelling around Europe pretty much as before, the supermarket shelves are full, loads of fuel at petrol stations and pump prices in the UK are lower than those in Germany, Italy, Holland, and Luxembourg.

The remoaniacs must be fuming!


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 30, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> unless you are in France mind


‘reform’ of working conditions and pensions is a key part of Macrons ( who incidentally just announced a pact with the right) manifesto. That the French working class have so far resisted these attempts is to be applauded , however I think you’ll find that the EU isn't leaping in to aid them as it’s busy being an excuse for Macrons ‘reforms’ .


----------



## Ax^ (Jun 30, 2022)

talk more about the 28 days holiday and the 35hour  working week


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 30, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> talk more about the 28 days holiday and the 35hour  working week


You talk and I will listen . I’m sitting comfortably.


----------



## Ax^ (Jun 30, 2022)

don't be a tit the French working week plus holiday entitlement is much more generous that the UK


----------



## Yossarian (Jun 30, 2022)

Spymaster said:


> So, 6 months on and the country hasn't imploded financially, everyone's travelling around Europe pretty much as before, the supermarket shelves are full, loads of fuel at petrol stations and pump prices in the UK are lower than those in Germany, Italy, Holland, and Luxembourg.



Yep, not fully implementing Brexit appears to have been one of the government's more successful Brexit policies.









						Britain delays full post-Brexit import checks until late 2023
					

Britain has delayed imposing its full post-Brexit import controls on goods from the European Union again, pushing it back until the end of next year, saying it did not want to add more fuel to fast-rising inflation.




					www.reuters.com


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 30, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> don't be a tit the French working week plus holiday entitlement is much more generous that the UK


So nothing to do with the EU legislation/ directives ?


----------



## Ax^ (Jun 30, 2022)

you'd mentioned not better alternative the UK holiday entitlement 


France has got a better alternative


----------



## Chilli.s (Jun 30, 2022)

and doesn't everywhere else have better pensions than here too


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 30, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> you'd mentioned not better alternative the UK holiday entitlement
> 
> 
> France has got a better alternative


I'm not sure what you mean in the first sentence but predictably the issue in your second sentence has absolutely nothing to do with EU  legislation.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 30, 2022)

Chilli.s said:


> and doesn't everywhere else have better pensions than here too


UK state pensions are an absolute disgrace but there is no EU legislation on a minimum state pension rate.


----------



## Ax^ (Jun 30, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Well apart from standards on minimum annual leave , maternity pay etc and that very often there was no point in coming up with something different as the Directives applied to the U.K. but I see where you are coming from .



France has more holiday entitlement that the UK

not sure what confusing you fella


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 30, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> France has more holiday entitlement that the UK
> 
> not sure what confusing you fella


I will repeat once more, albeit in lower case,  that this is absolutely nothing to do with EU legislation.


----------



## Chilli.s (Jun 30, 2022)

great examples of how europe as a whole does it better for their citizens than uk


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jun 30, 2022)

Yossarian said:


> Yep, not fully implementing Brexit appears to have been one of the government's more successful Brexit policies.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Promising they’d implement it and then not doing it and blaming the EU for asking them to actually impose the border they agreed to is an absolute masterstroke.


The obstinate EU, still to blame for all of the  UKs problems, forever and ever amen. Please do not look to closely at Westminster thank you


----------



## Calamity1971 (Jun 30, 2022)

Spymaster said:


> loads of fuel at petrol stations


You've not tried to get fuel in Durham then? Twice I've had to get super fucking unleaded because the forecourts are dry. Diesel the past week has been as rare as rocking horse shit.


----------



## Ax^ (Jun 30, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> I will repeat once more, albeit in lower case,  that this is absolutely nothing to do with EU legislation.



Neither did the post I was replying too 

HTH


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 30, 2022)

Chilli.s said:


> great examples of how europe as a whole does it better for their citizens than uk


There are examples of how conditions in individual states in Europe are better than some in the UK but we are dealing with conditions in 26 individual states, however, none of those are laid down by the EU. There are also many examples of conditions in the UK that are better than those in the  26 states.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jun 30, 2022)

Bit tough for some but I can still get a twix in Tesco so really no downsides to our socialist brexit paradise so far.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 30, 2022)

Calamity1971 said:


> You've not tried to get fuel in Durham then? Twice I've had to get super fucking unleaded because the forecourts are dry. Diesel the past week has been as rare as rocking horse shit.


it's helping us get to net zero faster than expected


----------



## Calamity1971 (Jun 30, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> it's helping us get to net zero faster than expected


It's helping me get to net fuck all running my gardening equipment on super unleaded.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 30, 2022)

Calamity1971 said:


> It's helping me get to net fuck all running my gardening equipment on super unleaded.




Buy a pencil and put the sharpening in the petrol, nice bit o’ lead there…


----------



## Calamity1971 (Jun 30, 2022)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Buy a pencil and put the sharpening in the petrol, nice bit o’ lead there…


Graphite..


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 30, 2022)

Calamity1971 said:


> Graphite..




Hipster


----------



## two sheds (Jun 30, 2022)

Calamity1971 said:


> Graphite..


Good lubricant


----------



## Raheem (Jun 30, 2022)

two sheds said:


> Good lubricant


Hipster pervert.


----------



## Calamity1971 (Jun 30, 2022)

Raheem said:


> Hipster pervert.


I didn't like to ask.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 30, 2022)

Ipsos-MORI have just released its latest Brexit polling.

Lots in there but one, possibly unsurprising, feature is that views appear to be firming up about the merits or otherwise of Brexit:



My eye was taken by the 10% of self-identifying remain voters & 26% leave who expressed the view that Brexit had made their daily life better. I wonder what those folk are seeing as better in their daily lives?


----------



## Dystopiary (Jun 30, 2022)

brogdale said:


> Ipsos-MORI have just released its latest Brexit polling.
> 
> Lots in there but one, possibly unsurprising, feature is that views appear to be firming up about the merits or otherwise of Brexit:
> 
> ...


Increase of intolerance towards immigrants and asylum seekers? Anti-GRT law now in place, Rwanda scheme, eg.
Not all Brexiters, obvs, but there were definitely a lot of people who voted leave because they're flag-shagger types.


----------



## bimble (Jul 2, 2022)

brogdale said:


> Ipsos-MORI have just released its latest Brexit polling.
> 
> Lots in there but one, possibly unsurprising, feature is that views appear to be firming up about the merits or otherwise of Brexit:
> 
> ...


It's fascinating that, 1 in 4 leave voters saying their lives are better because of brexit, seems a lot to me because i can't imagine what they mean like in what ways their life is better, but on the other hand 80% of people saying its either not impacted them at all or made things worse for them suggests that 'we got brexit done' isn't likely to be that great a vote winner going forward is it.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 2, 2022)

bimble said:


> It's fascinating that, 1 in 4 leave voters saying their lives are better because of brexit, seems a lot to me because i can't imagine what they mean like in what ways their life is better, but on the other hand 80% of people saying its either not impacted them at all or made things worse for them suggests that 'we got brexit done' isn't likely to be that great a vote winner going forward is it.


Imagine how shit their lives must have been before if the current clusterfuck is preferable


----------



## bimble (Jul 2, 2022)

seriously what could they be thinking of as we haven't even got the super strength hoovers yet. 
Suspect its more like when you've got a dawning awareness that you've done a stupid thing but think you'd better just brazen it out and pretend you totally meant to do that all along and are in fact delighted with your choice of having put salt in your tea.


----------



## brogdale (Jul 2, 2022)

bimble said:


> It's fascinating that, 1 in 4 leave voters saying their lives are better because of brexit, seems a lot to me because i can't imagine what they mean like in what ways their life is better, but on the other hand 80% of people saying its either not impacted them at all or made things worse for them suggests that 'we got brexit done' isn't likely to be that great a vote winner going forward is it.


I think it demonstrates, once again, the power of the affective domain for a fair chunk of that faithful demographic including the "lexit" believers who regard their daily lives as improved because they think they live in a context in which socialism in one country is now, hypothetically, a greater possibility. ie. nothing whatsoever to do with the lived reality of their daily lives.


----------



## bimble (Jul 2, 2022)

yeah, that 1 in 4 of leavers probably did ignore the 'daily life' bit and chose to interpret the question as are you happy we left.


----------



## philosophical (Jul 2, 2022)

The UK has not left the EU because there is a wide open land border.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 2, 2022)

brogdale said:


> I think it demonstrates, once again, the power of the affective domain for a fair chunk of that faithful demographic including the "lexit" believers who regard their daily lives as improved because they think they live in a context in which socialism in one country is now, hypothetically, a greater possibility. ie. nothing whatsoever to do with the lived reality of their daily lives.


i think there is no chance for socialism in one country in the uk anymore as everyone wants out. socialism in four nations on a good day


----------



## Yossarian (Jul 2, 2022)

bimble said:


> seriously what could they be thinking of as we haven't even got the super strength hoovers yet.
> Suspect its more like when you've got a dawning awareness that you've done a stupid thing but think you'd better just brazen it out and pretend you totally meant to do that all along and are in fact delighted with your choice of having put salt in your tea.



 I think it was established on previous threads, or possibly this one, that "getting a warm fuzzy feeling when you think about Britain no longer being in the EU" technically counts as a benefit of Brexit.


----------



## bimble (Jul 2, 2022)

Yossarian said:


> I think it was established on previous threads, or possibly this one, that "getting a warm fuzzy feeling when you think about Britain no longer being in the EU" technically counts as a benefit of Brexit.


true. and maybe those 1 in 4 remember to do that daily, making their daily lives significantly nicer.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 2, 2022)

bimble said:


> true. and maybe those 1 in 4 remember to do that daily, making their daily lives significantly nicer.


25% of 52% of 72.2% = ~9.4% of the adult population reporting better lives. it'll be fewer than that of course because many of the aged leave voters will have gone on to a perhaps better world, which may of course have been a significant improvement in their lives: don't suppose many of them completed the survey tho


----------



## iveivan (Jul 3, 2022)

bimble said:


> It's fascinating that, 1 in 4 leave voters saying their lives are better because of brexit, seems a lot to me because i can't imagine what they mean like in what ways their life is better, but on the other hand 80% of people saying its either not impacted them at all or made things worse for them suggests that 'we got brexit done' isn't likely to be that great a vote winner going forward is it.


Some people must feel their lives are better because they stuffed some foreigners and have a government that wants to send others to Rwanda.


----------



## Ax^ (Jul 3, 2022)

Yossarian said:


> I think it was established on previous threads, or possibly this one, that "getting a warm fuzzy feeling when you think about Britain no longer being in the EU" technically counts as a benefit of Brexit.



bullshit doesn't count  

need to be a tangible 

and anyone who gets a warm fuzzy feeling in that manner of brexit need shooting


----------



## A380 (Jul 3, 2022)

brogdale said:


> Ipsos-MORI have just released its latest Brexit polling.
> 
> Lots in there but one, possibly unsurprising, feature is that views appear to be firming up about the merits or otherwise of Brexit:
> 
> ...



Crowns on pint glasses!
Blue passports!!!!


----------



## krtek a houby (Jul 3, 2022)

Can almost smell the euphoria


----------



## Ax^ (Jul 3, 2022)

plus we agree upthread that having radioactive mushroom from Fukushima  is the real benifit of brexit


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 3, 2022)

Another Brexit bill to be paid


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jul 3, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Another Brexit bill to be paid
> 
> 
> View attachment 330354



Not with these leccy bills


----------



## Ax^ (Jul 3, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Another Brexit bill to be paid
> 
> 
> View attachment 330354


----------



## krtek a houby (Jul 3, 2022)

Ax^ said:


>



Top Gurn


----------



## existentialist (Jul 3, 2022)

srb7677 said:


> Not interested in anything he has to say. I am ignoring him after an excess of negativity and borderline trolling.
> 
> If anyone else wishes to make the same point - whatever it is - I may well respond to it if I feel the need.


There's more to Pickman's model than meets the eye. It's worth the effort, in the long run. I've met the bloke, and he's sound (and he'll probably rip me a new one for saying this  )


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 3, 2022)

existentialist said:


> There's more to Pickman's model than meets the eye. It's worth the effort, in the long run. I've met the bloke, and he's sound (and he'll probably rip me a new one for saying this  )


Very kind of you to say so  but srb7677 has left the building


----------



## krtek a houby (Jul 4, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> Very kind of you to say so  but srb7677 has left the building


Possibly still chilling with a friend


----------



## bimble (Jul 4, 2022)

is this actually a real thing i can't tell:
It looks like, if you want to take your laptop (or any other thing that's valuable and used for your work) from here to the EU and back with you it will cost you import duties or you have to buy a 'carnet' for £300?


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 4, 2022)

The awful sound of the stable door being bolted long after the horse has bolted is unmistakable. But the commitment that an incoming “Labour government would not seek to rejoin the EU’s single market or customs union or reintroduce freedom of movement” at least indicates some recognition at the long term damage done. 






						Subscribe to read | Financial Times
					

News, analysis and comment from the Financial Times, the worldʼs leading global business publication




					www.ft.com


----------



## two sheds (Jul 4, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> commitment


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 4, 2022)

bimble said:


> is this actually a real thing i can't tell:
> It looks like, if you want to take your laptop (or any other thing that's valuable and used for your work) from here to the EU and back with you it will cost you import duties or you have to buy a 'carnet' for £300?


I've had visitors this year who have brought laptops and macs over so that they can do work meetings who haven't had any such issue


----------



## bimble (Jul 4, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> I've had visitors this year who have brought laptops and macs over so that they can do work meetings who haven't had any such issue


well yeah, i'm sure its not strictly and consistently enforced, just trying to understand if its even a thing (in theory or officially) or if i've misunderstood
eg) Take goods temporarily out of the UK cos i'm taking my stuff to eu in a couple of weeks and only just heard of it.

i saw it here but dont know whether its true or what.


----------



## philosophical (Jul 4, 2022)

The Labour position on the leave vote would have to explain how the land border between the two different systems would work.
I would assume a Labour activist might attack me for raising the issue rather than come up with a post leave vote solution.
If Labour had any idea how they would resolve the land border conundrum they would’ve been shouting it from the rooftops.
They aren’t because they’re delusional wankers on this issue, maybe not quite the lexit and ukip cunts, but not far off.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 4, 2022)

bimble said:


> well yeah, i'm sure its not strictly and consistently enforced, just trying to understand if its even a thing (in theory or officially) or if i've misunderstood
> eg) Take goods temporarily out of the UK cos i'm taking my stuff to eu in a couple of weeks and only just heard of it.
> 
> i saw it here but dont know whether its true or what.
> ...


I recall this issue being raised on here ( and on Twitter) before tbh a few months ago.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 4, 2022)

.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 4, 2022)

philosophical said:


> The Labour position on the leave vote would have to explain how the land border between the two different systems would work.
> I would assume a Labour activist might attack me for raising the issue rather than come up with a post leave vote solution.
> If Labour had any idea how they would resolve the land border conundrum they would’ve been shouting it from the rooftops.
> They aren’t because they’re delusional wankers on this issue, maybe not quite the lexit and ukip cunts, but not far off.


this doesn't make sense. any labour activist worth their salt would rip you to shreds over it as saying 'we're not taking the uk back into europe or the single market or the customs union' is a result of their position on the leave vote. and they'd doubtless say 'we have to see what we have when we return to power or write our manifesto for future elections, we can't talk about hypotheticals on the border mechanism until we see how they look in 2024 or 2029 (the latter if they're particularly honest) as we know the position is likely to change over the course of the next 2 (or 7) years'


----------



## philosophical (Jul 4, 2022)

The existence of the land border between the EU and the UK has not changed in the last six years.
At the moment it is wide open, and the UK has not left the EU as voted for.


----------



## bimble (Jul 4, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> I recall this issue being raised on here ( and on Twitter) before tbh a few months ago.


From what i can see, there's so far not been a single known case of anyone being charged or fined or whatever for failing to have a carnet, but there are plenty of people saying that they have needed to buy them in order to take their equipment tools etc with them from Uk to Eu for a work trip.
It's very unclear imo, seems a case of all is fine dont even think about it until one day a customs man doesn't like your face or is having a bad day and then its not.

Never mind though. Like this response (to some remoaner moaning about having to buy a couple of carnets), puts things into perspective. t


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jul 4, 2022)

bimble said:


> From what i can see, there's so far not been a single known case of anyone being charged or fined or whatever for failing to have a carnet, but there are plenty of people saying that they have needed to buy them in order to take their equipment tools etc with them from Uk to Eu for a work trip.
> It's very unclear imo, seems a case of all is fine dont even think about it until one day a customs man doesn't like your face or is having a bad day and then its not.
> 
> Never mind though. Like this response (to some remoaner moaning about having to buy a couple of carnets), puts things into perspective. tView attachment 330420




It's bollocks.

In theory you could need a carnet (temporary import license) but in reality you don't, any more than you've never needed one to take your laptop to the US and so on. When I travel I have a laptop, (£1800), iPhone (£1000), iPad (£800), watch (£600) and so on. Never once has this been raised by customs, they are clearly personal effects and business tools.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 4, 2022)

Just checking back on issues previously raised here, has the chronic shortage of frozen petit pois in the UK  been alleviated yet?


----------



## High Voltage (Jul 4, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Just checking back on issues previously raised here, has the chronic shortage of frozen petit pois in the UK  been alleviated yet?


You fucking what?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 4, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Just checking back on issues previously raised here, has the chronic shortage of frozen petit pois in the UK  been alleviated yet?


you're taking the peas


----------



## bimble (Jul 4, 2022)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> It's bollocks.
> 
> In theory you could need a carnet (temporary import license) but in reality you don't, any more than you've never needed one to take your laptop to the US and so on. When I travel I have a laptop, (£1800), iPhone (£1000), iPad (£800), watch (£600) and so on. Never once has this been raised by customs, they are clearly personal effects and business tools.


But you do need one for a musical instrument ? Or is that just in theory too. Are the people buying carnets for trips to eu idiots? It’s all a bit confusing.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jul 4, 2022)

bimble said:


> But you do need one for a musical instrument ? Or is that just in theory too. Are the people buying carnets for trips to eu idiots? It’s all a bit confusing.



Depends on the value.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 4, 2022)

bimble said:


> But you do need one for a musical instrument ? Or is that just in theory too. Are the people buying carnets for trips to eu idiots? It’s all a bit confusing.


Do you want to take a laptop and a musical instrument to the EU?


----------



## bimble (Jul 4, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Do you want to take a laptop and a musical instrument to the EU?


No. Just a laptop & it’s not worth £1,500 so am exempt , even in theory. I think.


----------



## TopCat (Jul 4, 2022)

Labour to rule out Brexit reversal and unveil plan to resolve NI protocol issues
					

Keir Starmer to insist on no return to single market, saying it would be recipe for further division




					www.theguardian.com
				




Provision for travelling players. Will probably cheer editor


----------



## bimble (Jul 4, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Just checking back on issues previously raised here, has the chronic shortage of frozen petit pois in the UK  been alleviated yet?


The peas are back! They just cost more now.

And happy Great British Pea week.








						Great British Pea Week - Yes Peas!
					

Great British Pea Week, running from 4th to 10th July 2022, is an annual celebration of peas! It aims to increase awareness and understanding of the provenance and heritage of peas, giving British consumers a reason to celebrate the little green nutritional wonders during harvesting time.




					peas.org


----------



## editor (Jul 4, 2022)

TopCat said:


> Labour to rule out Brexit reversal and unveil plan to resolve NI protocol issues
> 
> 
> Keir Starmer to insist on no return to single market, saying it would be recipe for further division
> ...



Doesn't  the possibility of musicians finally being able to make a living abroad after several years of being totally fucked over by Brexit cheer you too? 

Not that it's likely to happen any time soon, mind.


----------



## Ax^ (Jul 4, 2022)

bimble said:


> No. Just a laptop & it’s not worth £1,500 so am exempt , even in theory. I think.


 it fine as carry on luggage


----------



## MrSki (Jul 4, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Just checking back on issues previously raised here, has the chronic shortage of frozen petit pois in the UK  been alleviated yet?


When I could get them, I stocked up so have not had to buy any for a good few months.

Fresh veg still seems to be a bit thin on the ground though.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 4, 2022)




----------



## Yossarian (Jul 4, 2022)




----------



## bimble (Jul 4, 2022)

Did you know that Batchelors make two different tins of mushy peas, one produced in the Uk and one made in Ireland and the uk one is much smaller? things that brexit has taught me. 








						Brexit and the mushy pea conundrum
					

"We Brits tried to fit in here, really, we did. We adopted crevette grise, buckets of moules-frites, and mayonnaise in place of ketchup."




					www.brusselstimes.com


----------



## scalyboy (Jul 4, 2022)

bimble said:


> The peas are back! They just cost more now.
> 
> And happy Great British Pea week.
> 
> ...


Peas in our time


----------



## scalyboy (Jul 4, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> View attachment 330482


Peas and (Francis) bacon


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 4, 2022)

bimble said:


> Did you know that Batchelors make two different tins of mushy peas, one produced in the Uk and one made in Ireland and the uk one is much smaller? things that brexit has taught me.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Are mushy peas a particular U.K. thing ( aside from Ireland possibly) ?


----------



## bimble (Jul 4, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Are mushy peas a particular U.K. thing ( aside from Ireland possibly) ?


yes! everyone else thinks they're disgusting which they are not obvs.


----------



## bimble (Jul 4, 2022)

absolutely shocking behaviour thats 120g less of peas we get, and they have the temerity to claim that both tins contain 3 portions. The fact that the Irish ones are being exported to Eu now whilst we have to carry on buying the miserly British ones is pretty tragic tbh.

eta i have sent batchelors an email enquiring as to why this injustice is happening and will notify thread if any poor sod there is obligated to reply to me.


----------



## Raheem (Jul 4, 2022)

So what's going to happen to peas in Northern Ireland?


----------



## Ax^ (Jul 4, 2022)

oddly enough we got enough farms on both side of the boarders

kinda makes me laugh everytime someone brings up british sausage into the the north or south


keep you manky british bangers


----------



## bimble (Jul 4, 2022)

irish people please tell me the price of one 420g tin of batchelors mushy peas thank you.


----------



## spitfire (Jul 4, 2022)

€1.55









						Batchelors Mushy Peas (420 g)
					

Batchelors Mushy Peas 420g




					shop.supervalu.ie


----------



## bimble (Jul 4, 2022)

well. 
great british mushy peas are a lot cheaper then.


----------



## spitfire (Jul 4, 2022)

I must admit I don't remember mushy peas being a thing when I lived in Ireland. Ax^ is considerably more Irish than me so may have a view.


----------



## bimble (Jul 4, 2022)

they didn't just start manufacturing them to take advantage of the brexit opportunity surely.


----------



## spitfire (Jul 4, 2022)

Maybe!

Beans are cheaper in Ireland.

€1.19 v £1.20









						Heinz Baked Beans (415 g)
					

Heinz Baked Beanz 415g




					shop.supervalu.ie
				








__





						Loading…
					





					www.sainsburys.co.uk


----------



## bimble (Jul 4, 2022)

one of the things i learned today is that great britian is 90% self sufficient in peas, which makes the shortage of frozens last year even more specific, it was about the amount of people needed to get 45,000 tonnes of them 'from field to bag' in whatever it was 2 and a half hours, within the short harvest season.


----------



## bimble (Jul 4, 2022)

spitfire said:


> Maybe!
> 
> Beans are cheaper in Ireland.
> 
> ...


some of this must be just the £'s mysterious demise since 2016


----------



## two sheds (Jul 4, 2022)

I wish I were 90% self sufficient in peas, fresh peas are lovely.


----------



## spitfire (Jul 4, 2022)

bimble said:


> some of this must be just the £'s mysterious demise since 2016
> 
> View attachment 330529



How did that happen? What's going on?


----------



## bimble (Jul 4, 2022)

spitfire said:


> How did that happen? What's going on?


remoaners did it.


----------



## spitfire (Jul 4, 2022)

bimble said:


> remoaners did it.



I thought everything was NATO's fault.

Bloody remoaners. Coming over here, stealing our voteses.


----------



## NoXion (Jul 4, 2022)

bimble said:


> View attachment 330493 View attachment 330494
> absolutely shocking behaviour thats 120g less of peas we get, and they have the temerity to claim that both tins contain 3 portions. The fact that the Irish ones are being exported to Eu now whilst we have to carry on buying the miserly British ones is pretty tragic tbh.
> 
> eta i have sent batchelors an email enquiring as to why this injustice is happening and will notify thread if any poor sod there is obligated to reply to me.



Those 300g cans existed before Brexit. I should know, since at one point cans of mushy peas was one of the cheap foods I lived off of. Looks to me like they just use the standard size tins in the Irish market.

Portion sizes have always been complete and utter bollocks. Far too fucking small, in my experience. Again, different markets, so no reason to assume that portion sizes are standardised across them both. Are portion sizes even standardised within the EU?


----------



## Ax^ (Jul 4, 2022)

spitfire said:


> I must admit I don't remember mushy peas being a thing when I lived in Ireland. Ax^ is considerably more Irish than me so may have a view.



not as comman as over here we prefer curry sauce with chips

but have them with a roast from time to time


----------



## Ax^ (Jul 4, 2022)

bimble said:


> some of this must be just the £'s mysterious demise since 2016
> 
> View attachment 330529



Ireland itself can produce enough food for a population of 34 million with a national population of 6 million

that also helps

just a shame we export so much of it as Ireland is expensive as hell to live in


----------



## bimble (Jul 4, 2022)

NoXion said:


> Those 300g cans existed before Brexit. I should know, since at one point cans of mushy peas was one of the cheap foods I lived off of. Looks to me like they just use the standard size tins in the Irish market.
> 
> Portion sizes have always been complete and utter bollocks. Far too fucking small, in my experience. Again, different markets, so no reason to assume that portion sizes are standardised across them both. Are portion sizes even standardised within the EU?


Portion sizes are always lies yes. Especially the “sharing / family size” bollocks.


----------



## not a trot (Jul 4, 2022)

spitfire said:


> Maybe!
> 
> Beans are cheaper in Ireland.
> 
> ...



Wifey got 2 six packs for 8 quid in Morrisons this afternoon.


----------



## bluescreen (Jul 4, 2022)

scalyboy said:


> Peas and (Francis) bacon


Which reminds me








						Knowledge Is Power. France Is Bacon. • The Habit
					

Last week my friend and nemesis John Barber posted a very funny story that first appeared on Reddit ten years ago, posted by a Lard_Baron in response to the question,Read More




					thehabit.co


----------



## Ax^ (Jul 4, 2022)

not a trot said:


> Wifey got 2 six packs for 8 quid in Morrisons this afternoon.



just how far up north do you live


----------



## not a trot (Jul 4, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> just how far up north do you live


Hampshire.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 4, 2022)

I’ve been saying for some time that Project Remain’s refusal to leave 2016 has become increasingly less about politics or political economy and more about a psychological collapse amongst a particular demographic.

This is a classic case in point. Here, Brexit is presented in purely emotional terms. A set of economic, legal and constitutional obligations become something achievable by ‘faith’ and resolution inevitable by waiting for the traditional stages of grief to be worked through.

The threat itself - and the comments about it, that apparently accept that this way of understanding Brexit is normal is highly disturbing…


----------



## brogdale (Jul 5, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I’ve been saying for some time that Project Remain’s refusal to leave 2016 has become increasingly less about politics or political economy and more about a psychological collapse amongst a particular demographic.
> 
> This is a classic case in point. Here, Brexit is presented in purely emotional terms. A set of economic, legal and constitutional obligations become something achievable by ‘faith’ and resolution inevitable by waiting for the traditional stages of grief to be worked through.
> 
> The threat itself - and the comments about it, that apparently accept that this way of understanding Brexit is normal is highly disturbing…



Maybe, but what is remarkable about this?

We are where we are precisely because Project Leave’s refusal to leave 1975 had become increasingly less about politics or political economy and more about a psychological collapse amongst a particular demographic.

And so it goes...


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jul 5, 2022)

two sheds said:


> I wish I were 90% self sufficient in peas, fresh peas are lovely.




Right from the pod, absolutely amazing


----------



## TopCat (Jul 5, 2022)

spitfire said:


> Maybe!
> 
> Beans are cheaper in Ireland.
> 
> ...


Crazy prices. I get Lidl beans. £0.32 a can and they are the best. Baked beans compared at UK supermarkets from Lidl to Heinz - with a clear winner


----------



## bimble (Jul 5, 2022)

Maybe mushy pea tin size is in some way related to number of people in average household.


----------



## TopCat (Jul 5, 2022)

editor said:


> Doesn't  the possibility of musicians finally being able to make a living abroad after several years of being totally fucked over by Brexit cheer you too?
> 
> Not that it's likely to happen any time soon, mind.


It is good that Labour are not trying to undo what was done but are wanting to fix some of the glaring Tory errors.  The policy announcement in itself is not enough to get my vote. What about you? Would it swing your vote?


----------



## philosophical (Jul 5, 2022)

Labour (Starmer) is saying what they’re saying because they are scared of leaver reaction, not because they have a clue about how to make leave work.
Leave can’t work unless the land border in Ireland is resolved, Labour has no more clue than any of the tossers who voted leave, especially the lexit poseur cunts.


----------



## brogdale (Jul 5, 2022)

TopCat said:


> It is good that Labour are not trying to undo what was done but are wanting to fix some of the glaring Tory errors.  The policy announcement in itself is not enough to get my vote. What about you? Would it swing your vote?


I reckon the blairite delusion extends to the 3 term project...lie to get into office for 1st term, promote referendum on re-entering single market in term 2 and then have ref/re-enter in the glorious 3rd term.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 5, 2022)

TopCat said:


> It is good that Labour are not trying to undo what was done but are wanting to fix some of the glaring Tory errors.  The policy announcement in itself is not enough to get my vote. What about you? Would it swing your vote?


no, i'll still be spoiling my ballot


----------



## Yossarian (Jul 6, 2022)

The Daily Express isn't buying the Starmer plan


----------



## bimble (Jul 6, 2022)

So far it really does look like lower food standards are the only definite concrete thing we have got as a result of our new sovereignty.

This is a few months old and i only saw it because of the news about 'deadly superbug found in british pork'. 








						UK risks falling behind on reducing farm antibiotics after EU ban
					

New restrictions on administering drugs to healthy animals come into force across EU to tackle critical overuse, but UK fails to follow suit




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## existentialist (Jul 6, 2022)

Yossarian said:


> The Daily Express isn't buying the Starmer plan
> 
> View attachment 330711


I suspect that's more because Project Labour Fear is about the only way they can make a case for people voting to keep this discredited and corrupt government in, and nothing to do with, y'know, facts or anything.


----------



## Yossarian (Jul 6, 2022)

Ha, he would fit in on this thread


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jul 7, 2022)

bimble said:


> So far it really does look like lower food standards are the only definite concrete thing we have got as a result of our new sovereignty.




Those pesky Europeans have spoiled our fun by having lower food-animal welfare standards than us 









						UK supermarkets urged to stop selling Parma ham from EU caged sows
					

Animal welfare groups find sows in Europe forced to spend weeks in cages so small they can only stand and lie down




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 7, 2022)

Alas... how terrible is wisdom when it brings no profit to the wise, Johnny?


----------



## Ax^ (Jul 7, 2022)

at least no tory leader can pledge to be the man who brought about or got brexit done


could lead to a net lose of typical none voters next time around for the Tories


of course anyone not voting is a bit of  a shame but if its Boris fans

we need more small violins


----------



## editor (Jul 7, 2022)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Those pesky Europeans have spoiled our fun by having lower food-animal welfare standards than us
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Time to massively cut back on eating meat then, yes?


----------



## existentialist (Jul 8, 2022)

editor said:


> Time to massively cut back on eating meat then, yes?


It would do an end run around a lot of the problems, Brexit-related and otherwise, that seem to plague the meat industry, for sure...

But I'm vegetarian, so I would say that, wouldn't I?


----------



## editor (Jul 8, 2022)

This is how fucking shit Brexit is:



> New polling by Ipsos UK in partnership with the EU:UK Forum shows that the proportion of Britons who think the UK’s exit from the EU has made their daily life worse has risen from three in ten in June 2021 to 45% now. Seven in ten of those who voted Remain feel this is the case, up from half last year – and the proportion of Leave voters who say the same has doubled over the same period, from 10 to 22 per cent.







			https://www.ipsos.com/en-uk/almost-half-britons-say-brexit-has-made-their-daily-life-worse-1-3-say-it-has-made-little


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 8, 2022)

Has anyone got access to this account ?

Has Brexit caused an increase in vegan dogs?​
https://doi.org/10.1002/vetr.1744


----------



## 2hats (Jul 8, 2022)

It's about dog food companies reporting a rise in interest in their vegan products, after travellers from Great Britain were banned from bringing meat and dairy products into the EU as personal imports after Brexit, acclimatising dogs to a vegan diet ahead of travelling.

Also mentions this recent study which suggests that "the pooled evidence to date indicates that the healthiest and least hazardous dietary choices for dogs, are nutritionally sound vegan diets".
_Vegan versus meat-based dog food: Guardian-reported indicators of health_, DOI: 10.1371/journal.pone.0265662.


----------



## existentialist (Jul 8, 2022)

editor said:


> This is how fucking shit Brexit is:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


When I see polls like this, I'm fascinated to know in what way the 17% who think their daily life has been made better by Brexit. I can't help wonder whether, if you asked them, they'd mutter something about sovereignty or straight bananas.

I wonder this, because whenever I've had a conversation with a pro-leaver, even when I was being careful not to make my own position clear, their reasoning was invariably rather nebulous about the whole thing...as if they were waiting for the choirs of angels and Great British Sunbeams to shine down from the clouds, rather than actually having something concrete about it to feel good about.

I suspect that a lot of the group who've moved into the "worse" category are those whose faith in angel choirs and sunbeams has diminished in the face of the evidence.


----------



## teqniq (Jul 10, 2022)

UK ports threaten legal action after spending millions on 'white elephant' post-Brexit border control posts


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jul 22, 2022)

We English do love a good queue.


----------



## Chz (Jul 22, 2022)

Artaxerxes said:


> We English do love a good queue.



It's why we paid an extra £100 for Le Shuttle next weekend. "Next available service" isn't nearly the same level of inconvenience. To be sure, it will be backed up to hell and back as well, just that it's less annoying to cope with.


----------



## Fuzzy (Jul 23, 2022)

Chz said:


> It's why we paid an extra £100 for Le Shuttle next weekend. "Next available service" isn't nearly the same level of inconvenience. To be sure, it will be backed up to hell and back as well, just that it's less annoying to cope with.


those pesky French border guards not turning up to work. lol


----------



## brogdale (Jul 23, 2022)

New entry for the Brexicon...


----------



## editor (Jul 23, 2022)




----------



## editor (Jul 23, 2022)




----------



## The39thStep (Jul 23, 2022)

I couldn't think of anything worse than a holiday driving in a car tbh


----------



## andysays (Jul 23, 2022)

editor said:


> View attachment 334068



Laughing at people stuck in a queue for hours on end isn't a great look, whoever they are.

How do you or Toby know what percentage of them wanted a hard border with France, or even voted to leave the EU (the two things are not synonymous)?

And for all you know some of them might even be touring musicians


----------



## bimble (Jul 23, 2022)

There were 2 queues to get into Switzerland the other day, one for Swiss& EU and one for everyone else. The everyone else queue was very very long and it was about 40 degrees in there. Woman with UK passport was told by a member of staff “no, that doesn’t work anymore” and sent to the back of the everyone else. I think I half expected them to treat us as honorary members but no. Was smugly glad as always that I’d brought all my various passports. Stupid brexit is stupid.


----------



## editor (Jul 23, 2022)

andysays said:


> Laughing at people stuck in a queue for hours on end isn't a great look, whoever they are.
> 
> How do you or Toby know what percentage of them wanted a hard border with France, or even voted to leave the EU (the two things are not synonymous)?
> 
> And for all you know some of them might even be touring musicians


I'm not laughing at them. I'm just exasperated that we're in this never ending shitstorm and equally baffled by the Brexit fans who continue to insist that it's all been worth it because [insert vague wibble here].


----------



## editor (Jul 23, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> I couldn't think of anything worse than a holiday driving in a car tbh


Maybe the Brexit fans will spin it into a cunningly clever environmental move, just like it was somehow really all about bringing abut a united Ireland.


----------



## JimW (Jul 23, 2022)

bimble said:


> Was smugly glad as always that I’d brought all my various passports.


Who were you tasked with assassinating this time?


----------



## bimble (Jul 23, 2022)

JimW said:


> Who were you tasked with assassinating this time?


That is a private matter.


----------



## contadino (Jul 23, 2022)

andysays said:


> Laughing at people stuck in a queue for hours on end isn't a great look, whoever they are.
> 
> How do you or Toby know what percentage of them wanted a hard border with France, or even voted to leave the EU (the two things are not synonymous)?
> 
> And for all you know some of them might even be touring musicians


Maybe the ire was aimed at leave voters, rather than the people in the photo? It's not beyond the realms of possibly.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 23, 2022)

bimble said:


> There were 2 queues to get into Switzerland the other day, one for Swiss& EU and one for everyone else. The everyone else queue was very very long and it was about 40 degrees in there. Woman with UK passport was told by a member of staff “no, that doesn’t work anymore” and sent to the back of the everyone else. I think I half expected them to treat us as honorary members but no. Was smugly glad as always that I’d brought all my various passports. Stupid brexit is stupid.


What's the big attraction of Switzerland to non EU/everyone else  people ?


----------



## bimble (Jul 23, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> What's the big attraction of Switzerland to non EU/everyone else  people ?


No idea tbh. Probably cheese. Or the £10 coffees? I think many were transiting through zurich to get elsewhere cos it’s cheaper than flying direct.


----------



## Ax^ (Jul 23, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> What's the big attraction of Switzerland to non EU/everyone else  people ?



nazi gold. clocks and chocolate


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jul 23, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> What's the big attraction of Switzerland to non EU/everyone else  people ?


Loot


----------



## bimble (Jul 23, 2022)

Switzerland is completely ridiculous but has its charms (am a bit Swiss so know it quite well). Incidentally whilst there I chatted to a couple of randoms who when I mentioned uk politics in a passing way just laughed, not fake laughter just genuine spontaneous amusement at the absolute state of us.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 23, 2022)

bimble said:


> Switzerland is completely ridiculous but has its charms (am a bit Swiss so know it quite well). Incidentally whilst there I chatted to a couple of ransoms who when I mentioned uk politics in a passing way just laughed, not fake laughter just genuine amusement at the state of us.


Randoms?


----------



## bimble (Jul 23, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Randoms?


Yes. That’s what young people call strangers isn’t it idk. Oh I see typo.
We are a joke country now, is the point. This Tory election show is just adding to the comedy of watching your once respected neighbour shoot itself in the foot and then go on for six years pretending it doesn’t hurt at all and was a great idea and not in any way a mistake.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 23, 2022)

bimble said:


> Yes. That’s what young people call strangers isn’t it idk.


Big term in Manchester as it goes. 

If you have any problems with ransoms in the future this might be useful 






						Kidnap and ransom insurance - Switzerland | Aon
					

Aon Kidnap and ransom insurance in Switzerland



					www.aon.com


----------



## spitfire (Jul 23, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> I couldn't think of anything worse than a holiday driving in a car tbh



Fair enough but some friends of ours are taking their kids to the BMX world championships in Nantes and 2 bikes + luggage is only really doable sensibly with a vehicle, just one example. And they left yesterday so I imagine the trip was horrible.


----------



## bimble (Jul 23, 2022)

I should find out if my citizenship there entitles me to a bed in the swiss nuclear bunkers, just in case liz truss PM doesn’t do a great job at international diplomacy.


----------



## planetgeli (Jul 23, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> I couldn't think of anything worse than a holiday driving in a car tbh



Horses for courses but two of the best holidays I've ever had were West Wales to Croatia and West Wales to Finisterre by car. Helps if you have 6 weeks like...


----------



## bimble (Jul 23, 2022)

spitfire said:


> Fair enough but some friends of ours are taking their kids to the BMX world championships in Nantes and 2 bikes + luggage is only really doable sensibly with a vehicle, just one example. And they left yesterday so I imagine the trip was horrible.


It’s just the most recent of an increasingly pathetic array of responses that say ‘anyone negatively impacted by brexit is a shit kind of a person anyway so who cares. ‘


----------



## spitfire (Jul 23, 2022)

bimble said:


> It’s just the most recent of an increasingly pathetic array of responses that say ‘anyone negatively impacted by brexit is a shit kind of a person anyway so who cares. ‘



They are a bit middle class though tbf. But one of the guys travelling with them isn't so that complicates matters as to whether it is a good thing or a bad thing.


----------



## bimble (Jul 23, 2022)

spitfire said:


> They are a bit middle class though tbf. But one of the guys travelling with them isn't so that complicates matters as to whether it is a good thing or a bad thing.


Only the 17% who say their lives have been improved by it are Good People.


----------



## MrSki (Jul 23, 2022)

editor said:


> View attachment 334068


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 23, 2022)

planetgeli said:


> Horses for courses but two of the best holidays I've ever had were West Wales to Croatia and West Wales to Finisterre by car. Helps if you have 6 weeks like...


Yes of course.  I think when I was younger , in my late teens or early 20s I would have done a car trip to Europe  and often thought about doing one in the states. Now the idea just doesn't appeal what so ever.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 23, 2022)

bimble said:


> It’s just the most recent of an increasingly pathetic array of responses that say ‘anyone negatively impacted by brexit is a shit kind of a person anyway so who cares. ‘


Sorry to disappoint but actually that wasn't what I was saying and quite unnecessary of you to infer it was. I can't stand the idea of traffic jams and a car load of people whether the hold up is in or outside the EU. especially on holiday. I've also got no hesitation in condemning both the UK government and the EU for the way in which Brexit has been implemented.


----------



## bimble (Jul 23, 2022)

It looks like it’s due to our government Getting Brexit Done but expecting other people elsewhere to pay for it. We need to get our UK passports stamped now, upon entry or exit to any EU country (to prove we haven’t overstayed our visas), which for the time being pending robot advances means we require extra time from border staff wherever we are going, but we want that extra time from them for free so here we are.


----------



## bimble (Jul 23, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Sorry to disappoint but actually that wasn't what I was saying and quite unnecessary of you to infer it was. I can't stand the idea of traffic jams and a car load of people whether the hold up is in or outside the EU. especially on holiday. I've also got no hesitation in condemning both the UK government and the EU for the way in which Brexit has been implemented.


How would you have implemented it to make it be great?


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Jul 23, 2022)

bimble said:


> It looks like it’s due to our government Getting Brexit Done but expecting other people elsewhere to pay for it.



"we're going to build a brexit and make the french pay for it" ?


----------



## Ax^ (Jul 23, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Sorry to disappoint but actually that wasn't what I was saying and quite unnecessary of you to infer it was. I can't stand the idea of traffic jams and a car load of people whether the hold up is in or outside the EU. especially on holiday. I've also got no hesitation in condemning both the UK government and the EU for the way in which Brexit has been implemented.



Seeming as the airport are fooked as well due to the airlines thinking it was a good idea to lay everyone off during the pandemic and then try to rehire them on less money

You been queuing and waiting around if you drive or fly 


Just with extra queuing for British tourists


----------



## bimble (Jul 23, 2022)

In relation to nothing much at all, I realised the other day that dyson must have supported brexit (before he moved production to Singapore) because of the chance we’d get a loosening of those eu laws about super powerful hoovers. Export the things outside EU and let the nhs deal with the fallout when people have the naked accidents.


----------



## bimble (Jul 23, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> Seeming as the airport are fooked as well due to the airlines thinking it was a good idea to lay everyone off during the pandemic and then try to rehire them on less money
> 
> You been queuing and waiting around if you drive or fly
> 
> ...


Nice thing at Luton airport last night, when the luggage carousel spat out the first bag after an hour of waiting some people clapped & cheered.


----------



## contadino (Jul 23, 2022)

Puddy_Tat said:


> "we're going to build a brexit and make the french pay for it" ?


Remarkably similar to "we're going to build a wall and make Mexico pay for it"

I don't think that came to much either, but the maga mouthpieces will reel it out on the election trail.

Exactly the same playbook.


----------



## bimble (Jul 23, 2022)

Because what is the point of this thread anyway, here’s a thing I just enjoyed from a 1980 edition of the British medical journal. A metaphor for brexit maybe.


----------



## JimW (Jul 23, 2022)

bimble said:


> Because what is the point of this thread anyway, here’s a thing I just enjoyed from a 1980 edition of the British medical journal. A metaphor for brexit maybe. View attachment 334082


Made me look up phimosis and I wish I could pull back now.


----------



## Cat Fan (Jul 23, 2022)

bimble said:


> Because what is the point of this thread anyway, here’s a thing I just enjoyed from a 1980 edition of the British medical journal. A metaphor for brexit maybe. View attachment 334082


A fan blade 15cm from the inlet. Ouch!


----------



## planetgeli (Jul 23, 2022)

bimble said:


> Because what is the point of this thread anyway, here’s a thing I just enjoyed from a 1980 edition of the British medical journal. A metaphor for brexit maybe. View attachment 334082



Not sure I follow the Brexit analogy. Is Rees-Mogg both the hoover and the cock?

You are a bad person bimble  who does bad things to my brain. WTF were your search terms? And why?


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jul 23, 2022)

Puddy_Tat said:


> "we're going to build a brexit and make the french pay for it" ?



Swear I heard that seriously bandied about at the time.


----------



## existentialist (Jul 23, 2022)

bimble said:


> I should find out if my citizenship there entitles me to a bed in the swiss nuclear bunkers, just in case liz truss PM doesn’t do a great job at international diplomacy.


"just in case"


----------



## tommers (Jul 24, 2022)

We live near Dover and the traffic has to be seen to be believed. We went to Lenham for a friend's birthday last night and the queues of lorries on the motorway were miles long. Nothing new there really (at least since That Which Shall Not Be Named happened) but also absolute gridlock on loads of secondary roads all around with cars trying to get into the tunnel or Dover itself. Luckily we could avoid most of it, had to go up on the verge to get round some, but people were outside their cars and looked like they hadn't moved for hours. 

Came back at 11 (god bless Waze for taking us down country roads to avoid it) and they were all still there. Looked like they'd be there all night tbh.


----------



## brogdale (Jul 24, 2022)

tommers said:


> We live near Dover and the traffic has to be seen to be believed. We went to Lenham for a friend's birthday last night and the queues of lorries on the motorway were miles long. Nothing new there really (at least since That Which Shall Not Be Named happened) but also absolute gridlock on loads of secondary roads all around with cars trying to get into the tunnel or Dover itself. Luckily we could avoid most of it, had to go up on the verge to get round some, but people were outside their cars and looked like they hadn't moved for hours.
> 
> Came back at 11 (god bless Waze for taking us down country roads to avoid it) and they were all still there. Looked like they'd be there all night tbh.


Any local intel on the Wootton, Densole, Hawkinge road? I'm due to go down to Hawkinge tomorrow and wondered how that road down from the A2 was faring?


----------



## tommers (Jul 24, 2022)

brogdale said:


> Any local intel on the Wootton, Densole, Hawkinge road? I'm due to go down to Hawkinge tomorrow and wondered how that road down from the A2 was faring?


Dunno tbf. We came back through Peen and Sellindge but it was all literally pitch black country roads with no signs. Just trusted the Waze. Stick a journey into it, see what it says. It was pretty impressive, considering how many roads are closed. At one point we came up to a gridlocked roundabout but we could use the only unblocked lane to get round it and out. Otherwise I think we'd still be there. 

It is an absolute pain tbh. Makes getting anywhere into a complete ballache.


----------



## tommers (Jul 24, 2022)

Whoop whoop 

 brogdale


----------



## Ax^ (Jul 24, 2022)

tommers said:


> Whoop whoop
> 
> brogdale




Hmm I'll give it another 2 hour before that tweet looks premature


----------



## High Voltage (Jul 24, 2022)

tommers said:


> Whoop whoop
> 
> brogdale



When they say "flowing normally" is this at pre- or post-Brexit levels of normal traffic flow?


----------



## tommers (Jul 24, 2022)

High Voltage said:


> When they say "flowing normally" is this at pre- or post-Brexit levels of normal traffic flow?


Haha, I think they mean it's fine. 

Looks like the issue now is the Tunnel. Holidaymakers travel overnight to make Channel crossings as drivers told to brace for more 'severe' delays


----------



## Elpenor (Jul 24, 2022)

Normally until next Friday?


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jul 24, 2022)

Better be ok when I get the Eurostar next week.


----------



## DJWrongspeed (Jul 24, 2022)

It's all very well moaning about the French border force but if you look at the queues at Heathrow we're not exactly great at it either ?

I was on the German - Swiss border recently and didn't realise because of Schengen you can just flip across no problem. I cycled across a bridge and thought, hang on , do I need to get my passport out?


----------



## MrSki (Jul 24, 2022)




----------



## Ming (Jul 24, 2022)

Are any Brexiteers still posting about the benefits on this thread? How it’ll free us from the threat of the Neo-liberal European project. Rather than the reality that the whole thing was an asset grab by international capital.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 25, 2022)

Ming said:


> Are any Brexiteers still posting about the benefits on this thread? How it’ll free us from the threat of the Neo-liberal European project. Rather than the reality that the whole thing was an asset grab by international capital.



We’re still here. But the thread is now little more than postings from ‘hilarious’ FBPE Twitter so there isn’t anything from planet remain to actually engage with. It’s akin to an 80’s band constantly touring and playing their one hit to an increasingly smaller audience

Interested in your final point, which as I understand, posits that ‘international capital’ simultaneously campaigned for remain whilst secretly planning ‘an asset grab’. Sounds like you’ve stumbled upon a conspiracy there…


----------



## Chilli.s (Jul 25, 2022)

so still no benefits at all then


----------



## Elpenor (Jul 25, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> We’re still here. But the thread is now little more than postings from ‘hilarious’ FBPE Twitter so there isn’t anything from planet remain to actually engage with. It’s akin to an 80’s band constantly touring and playing their one hit to an increasingly smaller audience
> 
> Interested in your final point, which as I understand, posits that ‘international capital’ simultaneously campaigned for remain whilst secretly planning ‘an asset grab’. Sounds like you’ve stumbled upon a conspiracy there…


I have termed FBPE Twitter the IRA (Internet Remain Army)


----------



## brogdale (Jul 25, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> We’re still here. But the thread is now little more than postings from ‘hilarious’ FBPE Twitter so there isn’t anything from planet remain to actually engage with. It’s akin to an 80’s band constantly touring and playing their one hit to an increasingly smaller audience
> 
> Interested in your final point, which as I understand, posits that ‘international capital’ simultaneously campaigned for remain whilst secretly planning ‘an asset grab’. Sounds like you’ve stumbled upon a conspiracy there…


Capital ("international" or otherwise) was less engaged in in the 2016 referendum that had been the case in 1975 when many businesses communicated directly with their workforces to influence the 'stay' vote. With the obvious high-profile exceptions of Martin, Dyson et al and the Collective bodies of UK business, Capital's engagement with the referendum was pretty muted. I suspect some of that derives from the penetration of genuinely international capital in the UK economy; the outcome of one nation's membership of one regional market didn't really matter that much to global, neoliberal capital. They simply adjusted their business models and maybe re-located some activities to other states still within the single market without noticeable impacts on their returns.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 25, 2022)

Elpenor said:


> I have termed FBPE Twitter the IRA (Internet Remain Army)



They more resemble dads army. A dwindling and ageing group whose nostalgia for the 'good old days' - when the UK was a happy prosperous place, safe in the bosom of a failing and unelected neo-liberal economic construct  - becomes more unreliable every time they tell their story. Give it a moment and they'll be claiming that you could leave your back door open and nobody would rob you when we were in the EU.


----------



## A380 (Jul 25, 2022)




----------



## Artaxerxes (Jul 25, 2022)

The mistake is always to assume international capital is a monolith - which is how you end up with lunatic conspiracy theories about The Jews. 

Capital is made up of a variety of capitalists out for themselves, mostly it aligns in the pursuit of profit but there were clearly a substantial number of influential capitalists who for various reasons wanted to make more money pursuing Brexit and have done so quite well. Plenty of others stood quietly by and while disproving of it saw no point spending money stopping it, partly because they didn't think it would happen.


----------



## Yossarian (Jul 25, 2022)

Ming said:


> Are any Brexiteers still posting about the benefits on this thread? How it’ll free us from the threat of the Neo-liberal European project. Rather than the reality that the whole thing was an asset grab by international capital.



They have seemingly retreated to a fantasy world where the overwhelming success of the Brexit project is being questioned only by a dwindling, out-of-touch minority.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jul 25, 2022)

Yossarian said:


> They have seemingly retreated to a fantasy world where the overwhelming success of the Brexit project is being questioned only by a dwindling, out-of-touch minority.




Living in a lexit paradise


----------



## bimble (Jul 25, 2022)

i just spent a little while reading about the connection between our leaving the EU and our current (not new just worse than before) NHS staffing crisis.
There were of course ways that a brexit could probably have been done without leading to an even more dangerously understaffed health service with 50,000 vacancies but those are not the brexit we are enjoying.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 25, 2022)

Yossarian said:


> They have seemingly retreated to a fantasy world where the overwhelming success of the Brexit project is being questioned only by a dwindling, out-of-touch minority like me.



ffy


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jul 25, 2022)

DJWrongspeed said:


> It's all very well moaning about the French border force but if you look at the queues at Heathrow we're not exactly great at it either ?



Flew in to Heathrow on Saturday, less than 10 minutes from the aircraft reaching the gate to getting in a cab home


----------



## bimble (Jul 25, 2022)

The people who voted leave because they don't like foreigners coming over here, they will probably never see this graph, but it does kind of kill the whole argument about how UK workers wages are going to get better now that Poles and Lithuanians cant take our jobs doesnt it.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jul 25, 2022)

DJWrongspeed said:


> I was on the German - Swiss border recently and didn't realise because of Schengen you can just flip across no problem. I cycled across a bridge and thought, hang on , do I need to get my passport out?




And Switzerland is not in the EU.

There is no reason why they haven't sorted something out yet. They have done so in Portugal. Hopefully once cunthead Johnson fucks off some of the animosity felt towards the UK by various political leaders in the EU may subside and we can get back to being friendly neighbours.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 25, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> We’re still here. But the thread is now little more than postings from ‘hilarious’ FBPE Twitter so there isn’t anything from planet remain to actually engage with. It’s akin to an 80’s band constantly touring and playing their one hit to an increasingly smaller audience
> 
> Interested in your final point, which as I understand, posits that ‘international capital’ simultaneously campaigned for remain whilst secretly planning ‘an asset grab’. Sounds like you’ve stumbled upon a conspiracy there…


Might be a cunning plot by the international companies  that own 70% of our railway routes


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 25, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Might be a cunning plot by the international companies  that own 70% of our railway routes



Or the ones who own the energy companies? I hope all of those who voted Brexshit will be happy when they get their gas bills. They deserve it etc.


----------



## andysays (Jul 25, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Or the ones who own the energy companies? I hope all of those who voted Brexshit will be happy when they get their gas bills. They deserve it etc.


I'm especially looking forward to the crazy memes mocking people freezing to death this winter because they can't afford to heat their homes.

Most will probably be Brexit voters, so it serves them right, just like it does all those stuck in queues at Dover at the weekend.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 25, 2022)

andysays said:


> I'm especially looking forward to the crazy memes mocking people freezing to death this winter because they can't afford to heat their homes.
> 
> Most will probably be Brexit voters, so it serves them right, just like it does all those stuck in queues at Dover at the weekend.



Yes, we can add them to the list of shame: the delight at job losses in northern towns and cities, the suggestion that P&O workers had nobody else to blame but themselves because they were RMT members, condemnation of the inflationary effects created by striking food distribution workers, British people who dare to live abroad but rejected the EU , British people who dare to go on holiday but don't obsessively hanker for racist EU closed borders etc

In all cases the class contempt and the reactionary consequences of the praxis are palpable.


----------



## two sheds (Jul 25, 2022)

andysays said:


> I'm especially looking forward to the crazy memes mocking people freezing to death this winter because they can't afford to heat their homes.
> 
> Most will probably be Brexit voters, so it serves them right, just like it does all those stuck in queues at Dover at the weekend.


And the rest will probably be Remoaners, so they deserve it too


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 25, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Or the ones who own the energy companies? I hope all of those who voted Brexshit will be happy when they get their gas bills. They deserve it etc.


The TUC has just come out with nationalising the energy companies. I was astounded to learn that in 2020 the French state company EDF made £106 million profit from the UK alone.


----------



## A380 (Jul 25, 2022)

Anyway, what’s a few queues when the Lexit enabled revolution will deliver socialism soon. Any minute now… Any minute…


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 25, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> The TUC has just come out with nationalising the energy companies. I was astounded to learn that in 2020 the French state company EDF made £106 million profit from the UK alone.


Yeh I'd have thought it'd be more than that


----------



## bimble (Jul 25, 2022)

Well, French people have their gas fixed at last years prices & won’t be charged any increase above 4% for their electricity because of the cap they have introduced there. So someone’s got to help their energy companies out.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 25, 2022)

bimble said:


> Well, French people have their gas fixed at last years prices & won’t be charged any increase above 4% for their electricity because of the cap on prices they have introduced there. So someone’s got to help their energy companies out.


As you say the decision to force millions of people into poverty here is a choice, not something forced on the government or energy companies. After all the massive profits they've made you could be forgiven for thinking they might swallow a year or two of smaller profits to prevent people dying of hypothermia


----------



## bimble (Jul 25, 2022)

It’s absolutely a choice, and really nothing to do with brexit apart from in that the government we have now, who are guaranteed to fail at making things this winter even slightly less bad, the stupid ukip-flavoured government is itself a brexit consequence.


----------



## philosophical (Jul 25, 2022)

A380 said:


> Anyway, what’s a few queues when the Lexit enabled revolution will deliver socialism soon. Any minute now… Any minute…


Will that come before or after a Lexit enabled United Ireland?


----------



## A380 (Jul 25, 2022)

philosophical said:


> Will that come before or after a Lexit enabled United Ireland?


After obvs. But before the whole of Europe adopts anarcho-communism  as a direct result of the shock to international capitalist  elites caused by Lexit. Probably Thursday week apparently…


----------



## A380 (Jul 25, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> … they might swallow a year or two of smaller profits to prevent people dying of hypothermia



Are you some kind of lunatic?


----------



## Maggot (Jul 25, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Yes of course.  I think when I was younger , in my late teens or early 20s I would have done a car trip to Europe  and often thought about doing one in the states. Now the idea just doesn't appeal what so ever.


Fascinating.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 25, 2022)

A380 said:


> Anyway, what’s a few queues when the Lexit enabled revolution will deliver socialism soon. Any minute now… Any minute…



Meanwhile  in The Workers Paradise of the EU  38 million workers can't afford a holiday


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 25, 2022)

Maggot said:


> Fascinating.



we should meet up, it would be electric 


Maggot said:


> Felt really tired when woken by by alarm radio this morning. Hmmm, why is Farming Today on?  I had accidentally set my alarm for 5.30 instead of 6.30, and of course couldn't get back to sleep again.


----------



## Yossarian (Jul 25, 2022)

This thread:

"Any sign of any benefits of Brexit?"

"STOP LAUGHING ABOUT THE DEATHS OF OLD PEOPLE YOU HEARTLESS REMOANSTER"


----------



## Raheem (Jul 25, 2022)

I don't see why the antagonism. Traffic congestion in Kent also affects foreigners, so a win for both sides, really.


----------



## brogdale (Jul 25, 2022)

Artaxerxes said:


> The mistake is always to assume international capital is a monolith - which is how you end up with lunatic conspiracy theories about The Jews.
> 
> Capital is made up of a variety of capitalists out for themselves, mostly it aligns in the pursuit of profit but there were clearly a substantial number of influential capitalists who for various reasons wanted to make more money pursuing Brexit and have done so quite well. Plenty of others stood quietly by and while disproving of it saw no point spending money stopping it, partly because they didn't think it would happen.


I not sure about that last point. I get the impression that most actual UK capital, (rather than their collective mouthpieces), were reluctant to engage too readily on either side in such a 'hot' political issue for fear of commercial comeback. Added to which they were secure in the knowledge that they had a compliant political wing in power whatever the outcome. As I said above, I don't think that genuinely global capital really gave a hoot about the outcome; they had alternative coping strategies that ensured that their returns were unaffected whatever the outcome of the nationalist desires.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jul 25, 2022)

brogdale said:


> I not sure about that last point. I get the impression that most actual UK capital, (rather than their collective mouthpieces), were reluctant to engage too readily on either side in such a 'hot' political issue for fear of commercial comeback. Added to which they were secure in the knowledge that they had a compliant political wing in power whatever the outcome. As I said above, I don't think that genuinely global capital really gave a hoot about the outcome; they had alternative coping strategies that ensured that their returns were unaffected whatever the outcome of the nationalist desires.



I think overall there was a very complacent attitude of "of course it won't happen" and a rather strong arrogance that of course Britain would choose the path of least economic harm. While you had a few people putting long punts on it the majority of institutions and political actors around the world were very much in the "you aren't actually going to do this?" camp. 

Much as its fun for people to label me a FBPE remainer I understand that brexit is an issue caused by a range of issues, starting with the above and working your way through the gamut of "fuck the state" and ending in "send em back". Its just a fucking disaster run by arseholes like Farage, Mogg and Johnson egged on by Trump, and much as it disgusted me to stand at the ballot box and put a tick in the box belonging to the pork fucker I stand by the decision. The UK is a fucking mess right now and while its easy to point at the rest of the world having similar issues thats not my concern, my concern is that the economy here is in the toilet and I'm stuck with these fucking cretins in charge.

A worry that I had at the time. I didn't want to be trapped here with the Tories but here I am.


----------



## oxygenthief (Jul 25, 2022)

Artaxerxes said:


> I think overall there was a very complacent attitude of "of course it won't happen" and a rather strong arrogance that of course Britain would choose the path of least economic harm. While you had a few people putting long punts on it the majority of institutions and political actors around the world were very much in the "you aren't actually going to do this?" camp.
> 
> Much as its fun for people to label me a FBPE remainer I understand that brexit is an issue caused by a range of issues, starting with the above and working your way through the gamut of "fuck the state" and ending in "send em back". Its just a fucking disaster run by arseholes like Farage, Mogg and Johnson egged on by Trump, and much as it disgusted me to stand at the ballot box and put a tick in the box belonging to the pork fucker I stand by the decision. The UK is a fucking mess right now and while its easy to point at the rest of the world having similar issues thats not my concern, my concern is that the economy here is in the toilet and I'm stuck with these fucking cretins in charge.
> 
> A worry that I had at the time. I didn't want to be trapped here with the Tories but here I am.


Pretty much sums my attitude at the time. Not an EU fanboi, but leaving under conditions dictated by the piss-smogg, farage, etc. collective seemed unlikely to improve the life of proles like me.


----------



## editor (Jul 25, 2022)

And now Brexit is fucking things up for disabled drivers









						Blue badges may be rejected in Europe, drivers warned
					

Eleven countries including France, Spain and Greece are yet to decide whether to recognise the badges.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## Ming (Jul 25, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> We’re still here. But the thread is now little more than postings from ‘hilarious’ FBPE Twitter so there isn’t anything from planet remain to actually engage with. It’s akin to an 80’s band constantly touring and playing their one hit to an increasingly smaller audience
> 
> Interested in you final point, which as I understand, posits that ‘international capital’ simultaneously campaigned for remain whilst secretly planning ‘an asset grab’. Sounds like you’ve stumbled upon a conspiracy





Smokeandsteam said:


> We’re still here. But the thread is now little more than postings from ‘hilarious’ FBPE Twitter so there isn’t anything from planet remain to actually engage with. It’s akin to an 80’s band constantly touring and playing their one hit to an increasingly smaller audience
> 
> Interested in your final point, which as I understand, posits that ‘international capital’ simultaneously campaigned for remain whilst secretly planning ‘an asset grab’. Sounds like you’ve stumbled upon a conspiracy there…


It started before the referendum result had even been confirmed old bean.


----------



## bimble (Jul 26, 2022)

It's been six years we've basically had this ukip-flavoured bunch of lunatics in power banging on about how they are the champions of brexit and still now there's this mad posturing that it's somehow the anti-establishment underdog stance, it is genuinely weird.


----------



## Yossarian (Jul 26, 2022)

bimble said:


> It's been six years we've basically had this ukip-flavoured bunch of lunatics in power banging on about how they are the champions of brexit and still now there's this mad posturing that it's somehow the anti-establishment underdog stance, it is genuinely weird.



Finally, a candidate prepared to take on the orthodoxy of ... the Brexit status quo that she helped deliver? 

Or maybe she means taking on the orthodoxy of non-magical thinking, in which Brexit has utterly failed to do what its supporters from anywhere on the political spectrum claimed it would do - or maybe she's just planning to take on the Russian Orthodox church in a misguided gesture that she thinks will help Ukraine.


----------



## teuchter (Jul 26, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> We’re still here. But the thread is now little more than postings from ‘hilarious’ FBPE Twitter so there isn’t anything from planet remain to actually engage with. It’s akin to an 80’s band constantly touring and playing their one hit to an increasingly smaller audience



Can you tell us what happened to this campaign, which you introduced on the brexit thread at the time?





__





						Loading…
					





					twitter.com
				




Do they consider their work is done now, or have they just got bored?


----------



## johny76239 (Jul 26, 2022)

This topic reminded me of a story. Some of my friends were voting for the Brexit just for a meme, because they didn't seriously think that there will be more votes for that against.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jul 26, 2022)

johny76239 said:


> This topic reminded me of a story. Some of my friends were voting for the Brexit just for a meme, because they didn't seriously think that there will be more votes for that against.


For a meme???


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 26, 2022)

johny76239 said:


> This topic reminded me of a story. Some of my friends were voting for the Brexit just for a meme, because they didn't seriously think that there will be more votes for that against.



Eh?


----------



## Ax^ (Jul 26, 2022)

was it this meme


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 26, 2022)

teuchter said:


> Can you tell us what happened to this campaign, which you introduced on the brexit thread at the time?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Given the genuineness of your query I was tempted to respond by saying 'our work is done here'.

However, the network that came together under the Lexit campaign still exists in a number of forms.

1. The Political Education Project, has provided training for hundreds of working class activists. This directly emerged out of and by Lexit campaign supporters:   Political Education Project – Understanding the World in order to change it

2. A number of Groups formed at the time - in Manchester, the north of Ireland, the West Midlands and elsewhere have continued to meet and engage in  variety of campaigns in workplaces and communities. 

3. Most of the Lexit Network supporters were active in their own unions and organizations before the formation of Lexit and continue to be now. The Network was formed in recognition that it was vital that we leave the EU (and defeat attempts by Remainers to overturn the result). This was achieved. However, we also recognised that we do so on the basis that we seek to transform Britain in the process: a much longer term process and building on the central motivation driving the vote to leave the European Union - working class dissatisfaction with the present.

You'll no doubt be pleased to learn that the network of socialists, trade unionists, community activists and others that comprised the Network remains very much active. 

Why do you ask?


----------



## teuchter (Jul 26, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Given the genuineness of your query I was tempted to respond by saying 'our work is done here'.
> 
> However, the network that came together under the Lexit campaign still exists in a number of forms.
> 
> ...


Well, I recognise that if the central aim was to make sure "leave" happened, then that was achieved, and perhaps therefore the work is indeed done and there's no need for any entity to continue under that "LeFT" banner.

But it also seemed quite outspoken in its message that Brexit was necessary to "transform" the country in the direction it espoused. That is, not just taking advantage of the dissatisfaction made visible by the Brexit vote, but actually taking some of the real world consequences of Brexit and using them to further those transformative aims. To do stuff that would not be possible, or would be more difficult had Brexit not happened.

Of course the people that made these claims have no particular duty to demonstrate to me, or others sceptical about them, that there are, now, positive things actually happening as a result of Brexit having been implemented. But if they wanted to, then the "LeFT" banner would be under which they could do so.

I don't doubt that people involved with that campaign are doing, and continuing to do useful stuff. I do however doubt a bit that they are doing stuff that is happening and useful because of Brexit having been implemented, because I'm not really aware of any evidence anywhere of this. Like I say, if it's happening and they aren't interested in bringing it to the attention of people like me then that's their call.

I think it's important to be clear though, that positive stuff "emerging out of and by Lexit campaign supporters" is not at all the same thing as positive stuff emerging as a result of the implementation of Brexit.


----------



## Smangus (Jul 26, 2022)

Lexit isn't a horse in the current race, it's not even left the stable yet.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Jul 26, 2022)

Full Lexit has never been tried...


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 26, 2022)

teuchter said:


> But it also seemed quite outspoken in its message that Brexit was necessary to "transform" the country in the direction it espoused. That is, not just taking advantage of the dissatisfaction made visible by the Brexit vote, but actually taking some of the real world consequences of Brexit and using them to further those transformative aims. To do stuff that would not be possible, or would be more difficult had Brexit not happened.



I’ve got absolutely no idea what you are getting at here. At no point was LeFT committed to ‘using the real world consequences of Brexit (a sentence that’s not a clever as you think it is by the way). In fact, as was made abundantly clear by the founding signatories, the aims could be summarised as 1. To ensure Brexit took place and was not overturned by anti democratic middle class liberals 2. To organise so that Brexit  transforms Britain and moves away from neoliberalism. At the time this meant campaigning for a Corbyn led Labour Government committed to enacting a social democratic post Brexit programme. Following the defeat of Corbyn (in no small measure due to middle class remainers) the focus now is on first principles: work in the unions, workplaces and working class communities, which brings us on to 3. To tap into, give form to and to intervene in working class disaffection and the forms this takes. I’ve already given some examples of work underway.


teuchter said:


> 2) Of course the people that made these claims have no particular duty to demonstrate to me,


On that, we agree completely. We’ve got no duty whatsoever to you or others crying in to their keyboards about the result. They are, at best, an irrelevance. At worst, likely recruits for reaction. 


teuchter said:


> think it's important to be clear though, that positive stuff "emerging out of and by Lexit campaign supporters" is not at all the same thing as positive stuff emerging as a result of the implementation of Brexit.



Even his staunchest supporters would accept that Johnson failed to concretise, let alone deliver, a Tory vision of post Brexit UK. As for Labour the picture is more mixed. Proposed changes to state aid and procurement principles are directly lifted from our demands. However, and as was made crystal clear at the time, it’s the long game or nothing. As the pandemic recedes and as the cost of living crisis deepens the debate about what economic, social and political ideas should guide the UK in a post Brexit world will remain up for grabs.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 26, 2022)

sleaterkinney said:


> Full Lexit has never been tried...



Christ….as I said upthread, remain as praxis becomes more damaging by the day.


----------



## Ax^ (Jul 26, 2022)

Do we have a expect time frame for the benefits of leaving to start being felt by the working class of this country?


Just pondering if this thread will go one for another 6 to ten years


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Jul 26, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> Do we have a expect time frame for the benefits of leaving to start being felt by the working class of this country?
> 
> 
> Just pondering if this thread will go one for another 6 to ten years


Get Climate Change sorted first, then the consequences of Brexit.


----------



## teuchter (Jul 26, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I’ve got absolutely no idea what you are getting at here. At no point was LeFT committed to ‘using the real world consequences of Brexit (a sentence that’s not a clever as you think it is by the way). In fact, as was made abundantly clear by the founding signatories, the aims could be summarised as 1. To ensure Brexit took place and was not overturned by anti democratic middle class liberals 2. To organise so that Brexit  transforms Britain and moves away from neoliberalism. At the time this meant campaigning for a Corbyn led Labour Government committed to enacting a social democratic post Brexit programme. Following the defeat of Corbyn (in no small measure due to middle class remainers) the focus now is on first principles: work in the unions, workplaces and working class communities, which brings us on to 3. To tap into, give form to and to intervene in working class disaffection and the forms this takes. I’ve already given some examples of work underway.



Well, it's aim 2 I'm on about. 

You say "organise so that Brexit transforms Britain and moves away from neoliberalism".

Not "organise so that after Brexit Britain is transformed and moves away from neoliberalism".

Don't you agree there's a difference?


----------



## sleaterkinney (Jul 26, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Christ….as I said upthread, remain as praxis becomes more damaging by the day.


Damaging to whom?. Do you not see the damage that Leaving has done and continues to do?


----------



## editor (Jul 26, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Christ….as I said upthread, remain as praxis becomes more damaging by the day.


I see fucking_ shit loads _of endless damage being caused by Brexit - both personally and elsewhere - so could you elaborate on how "remain as praxis becomes more damaging by the day"?


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 26, 2022)

sleaterkinney said:


> Damaging to whom?. Do you not see the damage that Leaving has done and continues to do?



Damaging to the perspective of the individuals whose entire worldview has become ridiculously narrowed and warped by the referendum. One of the side effects seems to be the adoption of old right wing tropes used to attempt to dismiss those who point out the inherent flaws of capitalism. Embarrassing.


----------



## Yossarian (Jul 26, 2022)

Smangus said:


> Lexit isn't a horse in the current race, it's not even left the stable yet.



Unless Latvia, Lithuania, or Luxembourg head for the door, it's hard to see much future for the term Lexit except maybe as an obscure answer at the most boring quiz night on Earth.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Jul 26, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Damaging to the perspective of the individuals whose entire worldview has become ridiculously narrowed and warped by the referendum. One of the side effects seems to be the adoption of old right wing tropes used to attempt to dismiss those who point out the inherent flaws of capitalism. Embarrassing.


Patronising post of the year.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 26, 2022)

sleaterkinney said:


> Patronising post of the year.



Unlike yours of course...Chat shit. Get patronised.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 26, 2022)

editor said:


> so could you elaborate on how "remain as praxis becomes more damaging by the day"?



See the last 371 pages of this thread. Endless tracts, memes, FBPE nonsense that’s become increasingly deranged and lacking in perspective.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 26, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> See the last 371 pages of this thread. Endless tracts, memes, FBPE nonsense that’s become increasingly deranged and lacking in perspective.


The canonisation of the eu


----------



## editor (Jul 26, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> See the last 371 pages of this thread. Endless tracts, memes, FBPE nonsense that’s become increasingly deranged and lacking in perspective.


Intellectual musings, forum posts and random memes rarely impact people's livelihoods though, do they? Whereas Brexit is absolutely fucking over many, many  people and small businesses.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Jul 26, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Unlike yours of course...Chat shit. Get patronised.


Chat shit as opposed to what?. Lexit?


----------



## Ax^ (Jul 26, 2022)

still have no idea how putting the tory party in power for at least the next ten years was a victory for the left


----------



## inva (Jul 26, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> still have no idea how putting the tory party in power for at least the next ten years was a victory for the left


Absolutely, Labour had shown so much promise in the blissful days of the 2015 general election before Brexit ruined everything.


----------



## bimble (Jul 26, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> still have no idea how putting the tory party in power for at least the next ten years was a victory for the left


i think, silver linings, its highly likely that they (the tory party, now morphed into a kind of ukip who they had to impersonate because it threatened them) will be absolutely screwed by the fact that they Got Brexit Done, they are responsible for it, the referendum and the brexit we are having.
 i suspect that they'll try to not mention it at all come the next GE, like some embarrassing thing we did in our youth and don't like to think about.
 Think this is almost certainly the mood inside the party now, and certainly at the Ministry for Brexit Opportunities, where i'd still love to know what a typical work day looks like.


----------



## ska invita (Jul 26, 2022)

bimble said:


> at the Ministry for Brexit Opportunities, where i'd still love to know what a typical work day looks like.


----------



## bimble (Jul 26, 2022)

ska invita said:


>


I think he has a very sad face when nobody is looking, sad and afraid. What do they do all day though at the Ministry?


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jul 26, 2022)

sleaterkinney said:


> Patronising post of the year.



To question Brexit or apportion blame for the current sorry state of affairs and say "what the fuck is this shit?"  is to piss on The Working Class and call them big smelly racists.

Even when your not doing that, just calling Boris a rapey clown homunculus.


----------



## ska invita (Jul 26, 2022)

bimble said:


> I think he has a very sad face when nobody is looking, sad and afraid. What do they do all day though at the Ministry?


plan cuts to public/state expenditure i gather


----------



## bimble (Jul 26, 2022)

Artaxerxes said:


> To question Brexit or apportion blame for the current sorry state of affairs and say "what the fuck is this shit?"  is to piss on The Working Class and call them big smelly racists.
> 
> Even when your not doing that, just calling Boris a rapey clown homunculus.


yes. the polite thing to do is not mention brexit ever again.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jul 26, 2022)

bimble said:


> yes. the polite thing to do is not mention brexit ever again.



Done and dusted like, its over now. Time to move on and never mention it again.


----------



## Anju (Jul 26, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Given the genuineness of your query I was tempted to respond by saying 'our work is done here'.
> 
> However, the network that came together under the Lexit campaign still exists in a number of forms.
> 
> ...


So 6 years and you've got a one page website and had some nice chats. Meanwhile opportunities for working class people to work and retire in the EU  have been massively reduced and the direction of travel has veered further to the right with more cuts coming for the most vulnerable and no guarantee that EU funding will be replaced. 


There's no details of these courses where "hundreds" of activists have been trained. Only an invitation to sign up for the first 10 week course, again with zero details of where, when and what the course involves. The only information on the website is about the, as you would pompously put it "founding signatories".

I can't be certain but I think it was possible to create a website while we were in the EU.


----------



## A380 (Jul 26, 2022)

Any day now... any. day. now...


----------



## A380 (Jul 26, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> still have no idea how putting the tory party in power for at least the next ten years was a victory for the left


That's because you aren't pure enough in your left wing politics  to know its always better to have a Tory government than a Labour one, because reasons.


----------



## ska invita (Jul 27, 2022)

A380 said:


> That's because you aren't pure enough in your left wing politics  to know its always better to have a Tory government than a Labour one, because reasons.


well done, dont bother engaging with any substance, reduce everything to a lump of oversimplified nonsense
maybe you can do the sarcastic NATO MADE THEM DO IT one too, thats a classic

"because reasosn"


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 27, 2022)

Anju said:


> So 6 years and you've got a one page website and had some nice chats. Meanwhile opportunities for working class people to work and retire in the EU  have been massively reduced and the direction of travel has veered further to the right with more cuts coming for the most vulnerable and no guarantee that EU funding will be replaced.
> 
> 
> There's no details of these courses where "hundreds" of activists have been trained. Only an invitation to sign up for the first 10 week course, again with zero details of where, when and what the course involves. The only information on the website is about the, as you would pompously put it "founding signatories".
> ...



So, 6 years and we've trained hundreds of working class people (for many their first taste of activity). Enduring networks have been been built. In fact I've just met some fellow LeFT supporters at the RMT picket. Personally, I've been involved in supporting a number of disputes and campaigns in Birmingham. It. I also spend about 20-25 hours a week doing unpaid union work helping fellow members with grievances and disciplinaries and organizing workers. 

What have you done, bar crying into your keyboard that you lost a popular vote?


----------



## Tanya1982 (Jul 27, 2022)

Still waiting for my 'dividend'. Perhaps it got lost in the post.


----------



## not a trot (Jul 27, 2022)

Tanya1982 said:


> Still waiting for my 'dividend'. Perhaps it got lost in the post.



Oh fuck, you've turned up here now.


----------



## two sheds (Jul 27, 2022)

not a trot said:


> Oh fuck, you've turned up here now.


errrrm what?


----------



## not a trot (Jul 27, 2022)

two sheds said:


> errrrm what?



I know that poster from somewhere else. I'll leave it at that.


----------



## two sheds (Jul 27, 2022)

Ah ok - I'm just going from the posts they've made on here so far. The ones I've seen have been spot on.


----------



## Tanya1982 (Jul 27, 2022)

not a trot said:


> I know that poster from somewhere else. I'll leave it at that.


You may recognize my name from one of the two websites I've previously used, but no, you don't 'know' me. Let's leave it there, because I get the sense we are both perfectly happy not knowing each other. There is something very odd, socially speaking, that you feel that you know me and yet I don't have a clue who you are, and you didn't say. The online equivalent of someone wearing a balaclava who insists they've met you before.


----------



## A380 (Jul 27, 2022)

ska invita said:


> well done, dont bother engaging with any substance, reduce everything to a lump of oversimplified nonsense
> maybe you can do the sarcastic NATO MADE THEM DO IT one too, thats a classic
> 
> "because reasosn"


It's not 'NATO made them do it'  that would just  be silly. 

The line is "It's NATO's fault."

I presume it's NATO's fault you got this wrong...


----------



## Yossarian (Jul 27, 2022)

Anju said:


> I can't be certain but I think it was possible to create a website while we were in the EU.



Apparently the real Lexit was the friends they made along the way.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 27, 2022)

Yossarian said:


> Apparently the real Lexit was the friends they made along the way.



An embarrassing liberal writes..


----------



## A380 (Jul 27, 2022)

Yossarian said:


> Apparently the real Lexit was the friends they made along the way.


Indeed, it turned out that Lexit was in their hearts all along....


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 27, 2022)

A380 said:


> Indeed, it turned out that Lexit was in their hearts all along....



An embarrassing liberal writes (2)


----------



## Yossarian (Jul 27, 2022)

A380 said:


> Indeed, it turned out that Lexit was in their hearts all along....


----------



## A380 (Jul 27, 2022)

Yossarian said:


>



Every time someone says they don't believe in Lexit a pixie dies...


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 27, 2022)

A380 said:


> Every time someone says they don't believe in Lexit a pixie dies...


But monkey gone to heaven


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Jul 28, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> So, 6 years and we've trained hundreds of working class people (for many their first taste of activity). Enduring networks have been been built. In fact I've just met some fellow LeFT supporters at the RMT picket. Personally, I've been involved in supporting a number of disputes and campaigns in Birmingham. It. I also spend about 20-25 hours a week doing unpaid union work helping fellow members with grievances and disciplinaries and organizing workers.
> 
> What have you done, bar crying into your keyboard that you lost a popular vote?


That's great but please tell me you don't use terms like praxis when talking to them. I remember 15 years ago on here people having the piss taken out of them for using words like that.


----------



## MrSki (Jul 28, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> So, 6 years and we've trained hundreds of working class people (for many their first taste of activity). Enduring networks have been been built. In fact I've just met some fellow LeFT supporters at the RMT picket. Personally, I've been involved in supporting a number of disputes and campaigns in Birmingham. It. I also spend about 20-25 hours a week doing unpaid union work helping fellow members with grievances and disciplinaries and organizing workers.
> 
> What have you done, bar crying into your keyboard that you lost a popular vote?


So what you are saying is you are an active union rep but have found a new network in LeFT? 
Total respect for been so active in your union but what exactly has Brexit enabled you to do that you couldn't do before? Is it just the networking?


----------



## krtek a houby (Jul 28, 2022)

Rejoice

Brexit has given the electorate Sir Keir Starmer who stands firmly on stuff and is on his way to becoming the newspapers darling

What a time to be alive


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 28, 2022)

MrSki said:


> So what you are saying is you are an active union rep but have found a new network in LeFT?
> Total respect for been so active in your union but what exactly has Brexit enabled you to do that you couldn't do before? Is it just the networking?


No. Haven’t said any of that or anything approximate to it.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 28, 2022)

Doctor Carrot said:


> That's great but please tell me you don't use terms like praxis when talking to them. I remember 15 years ago on here people having the piss taken out of them for using words like that.



15 years ago people on here wouldn’t have believed this thread would exist. A 6 year long middle class psychodrama.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 28, 2022)

krtek a houby said:


> Rejoice
> 
> Brexit has given the electorate Sir Keir Starmer who stands firmly on stuff and is on his way to becoming the newspapers darling
> 
> What a time to be alive



You’ll need to explain how Brexit has produced Starmer. It’s an odd claim given that he led the middle class revolt within Labour demanding a 2nd referendum and was the shadow Brexit secretary responsible for the manifesto commitment that cost Labour 5 million votes.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jul 28, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> You’ll need to explain how Brexit has produced Starmer. It’s an odd claim given that he led the middle class revolt within Labour demanding a 2nd referendum and was the shadow Brexit secretary responsible for the manifesto commitment that cost Labour 5 million votes.



Exactly

Brexit made him

And he destroyed Labour


----------



## philosophical (Jul 28, 2022)

Forget the psychodrama Lexiters.
Provide your practical solution to the land border between the UK and the EU that you chose to leave.
Without retrofitting your weasel justification that secretly you voted for a United Ireland.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jul 28, 2022)

Tanya1982 said:


> Still waiting for my 'dividend'. Perhaps it got lost in the post.




What dividend are you waiting for Tanya?


----------



## brogdale (Jul 28, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> 15 years ago people on here wouldn’t have believed this thread would exist. A 6 year long middle class psychodrama.


tbf, in 2007 nobody but a few right-wing wonks and loons paid any attention to the UK's membership of the supra state


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 28, 2022)

brogdale said:


> tbf, in 2007 nobody but a few right-wing wonks and loons paid any attention to the UK's membership of the supra state


Precisely. But in 2022 it’s taken on a quasi-religious status for middle class liberals.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 28, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Precisely. Now it’s a religion.


holy robert schumann, father of eu, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our brexit


----------



## krtek a houby (Jul 28, 2022)

philosophical said:


> Forget the psychodrama Lexiters.
> Provide your practical solution to the land border between the UK and the EU that you chose to leave.
> Without retrofitting your weasel justification that secretly you voted for a United Ireland.


As have stated numerous times, voted remain as didn't know would be leaving your country

Was wrong about various aspects of Brexit

But delighted at the prospect of a 32 county ROI


----------



## brogdale (Jul 28, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Precisely. But in 2022 it’s taken on a quasi-religious status for middle class liberals.


Maybe, but as a demographic, they're hardly alone in attaching quasi-spiritual belief to their preferred referendum outcome. Many working class Leave supporters continue to justify their choice based exclusively on elements of the affective domain. This is all completely unsurprising given the reductive nature of the binary choice that the tories elevated to the defining political issue of our times.


----------



## SysOut (Jul 28, 2022)

Divide and rule. God save the Queen.


----------



## bimble (Jul 28, 2022)

I keep reading on here about the Working Class-ness of the brexit vote and its weird because i live in the middle of a really smug affluent bit of middle England which voted leave, its as if you are ignoring all of my neighbours, the whole village full of retired accountants and national trust members in their vastly overpriced quaint cottages with their stupid bunting still up. Both the archetypes are stupid fictions i dont get why people feel the need to keep pushing them.


----------



## philosophical (Jul 28, 2022)

krtek a houby said:


> As have stated numerous times, voted remain as didn't know would be leaving your country
> 
> Was wrong about various aspects of Brexit
> 
> But delighted at the prospect of a 32 county ROI



I am delighted at the prospect of a united planet, good to dream. However in the meantime there are the practical realities to deal with.


----------



## brogdale (Jul 28, 2022)

bimble said:


> I keep reading on here about the Working Class-ness of the brexit vote and its weird because i live in the middle of a really smug affluent bit of middle England which voted leave, its as if you are ignoring all of my neighbours, the whole village full of retired accountants and national trust members in their vastly overpriced quaint cottages with their stupid bunting still up. Both the archetypes are stupid fictions i dont get why people feel the need to keep pushing them.


Of course it's wrong to over-generalise in such an evenly divided outcome but, as has been posted before, there were significant differences between the proportions of R/L voters by socio-economic groupings:


----------



## bimble (Jul 28, 2022)

brogdale said:


> Of course it's wrong to over-generalise in such an evenly divided outcome but, as has been posted before, there were significant differences between the proportions of R/L voters by socio-economic groupings:
> 
> View attachment 334854


yes, i know. i must just live in a bit thats full of those 43% . I remember poring over the data years ago and owning your own home seemed to be the biggest indicator of voting leave, more consistent than anything else. Owning your own home goes with being old obvs but it was even stronger than that correlation as i recall.


----------



## Karl Masks (Jul 28, 2022)

what did left brexit voters think would happen?


----------



## teuchter (Jul 28, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> So, 6 years and we've trained hundreds of working class people (for many their first taste of activity). Enduring networks have been been built. In fact I've just met some fellow LeFT supporters at the RMT picket. Personally, I've been involved in supporting a number of disputes and campaigns in Birmingham. It. I also spend about 20-25 hours a week doing unpaid union work helping fellow members with grievances and disciplinaries and organizing workers.
> 
> What have you done, bar crying into your keyboard that you lost a popular vote?



I don't think it's right to criticise you or the PEP project or suggest it hasn't been working hard or achieving stuff.

The point you keep ignoring is that good things coming out of the Lexit campaign is a completely different thing from good things coming out of Brexit.

When I looked at the PEP twitter feed I noticed this



Seems like the word "pandemic" could simply be swapped for "brexit" there and we'd have a typical Lexit statement. And it might even be true, but it doesn't demonstrate that the pandemic was a good thing, or was worth going through in order to gain these opportunities does it?


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 28, 2022)

brogdale said:


> Maybe, but as a demographic, they're hardly alone in attaching quasi-spiritual belief to their preferred referendum outcome. Many working class Leave supporters continue to justify their choice based exclusively on elements of the affective domain. This is all completely unsurprising given the reductive nature of the binary choice that the tories elevated to the defining political issue of our times.



Not in my experience. They/we have long moved on. It was the right decision at the time. A generational kick in the bollocks to our rulers and would be rulers. I accept the cranks and Tory leavers want to fight the battle over and again but I'm talking about our side.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 28, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> what did left brexit voters think would happen?



Why don't you tell us what you think we thought Karl? You know you want to...


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 28, 2022)

teuchter said:


> The point you keep ignoring is that good things coming out of the Lexit campaign is a completely different thing from good things coming out of Brexit.



This has already been dealt with. 

Thanks for your analysis of the PEP by the way. I will pass it on and we will treat it with the seriousness it deserves.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 28, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> This has already been dealt with.
> 
> Thanks for your analysis of the PEP by the way. I will pass it on and we will treat it with the seriousness it deserves.


----------



## Karl Masks (Jul 28, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Why don't you tell us what you think we thought Karl? You know you want to...


what i want is to understand why left wing people voted thus. if you are one such person i'd rather hear why from you


----------



## bimble (Jul 28, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> A generational kick in the bollocks to our rulers and would be rulers.


How on earth was it that? Next thing was an 80 seat majority for boris Johnson’s get brexit done party and rees-mogg the cartoon toff as the iconic champion of the Ministry of it.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 28, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> what i want is to understand why left wing people voted thus. if you are one such person i'd rather hear why from you



Read the thread. Skip the middle class liberal whining/psychodrama/meltdown/FBPE Twitter dribble bits which will reduce the thread down to about 5 pages.


----------



## Karl Masks (Jul 28, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Read the thread. Skip the middle class liberal whining/psychodrama/meltdown/FBPE Twitter dribble bits which will reduce the thread down to about 5 pages.


it's 373 pages. that's not gonna happen. If you don't want to share your position, that's fine, but i see no benefits to voting leave. This appears to be evident now


----------



## brogdale (Jul 28, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Not in my experience. They/we have long moved on. It was the right decision at the time. A generational kick in the bollocks to our rulers and would be rulers. I accept the cranks and Tory leavers want to fight the battle over and again but I'm talking about our side.


QED

Claims that it is possible to "move on" from the consequences of the referendum outcome, (good or ill), that the outcome was "right", that it represented a "kick in the bollocks to our rulers" are all very much located in the affective domain and can sound very much like the quasi-religious hopes of the newly converted zealot.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 28, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> it's 373 pages. that's not gonna happen. If you don't want to share your position, that's fine, but i see no benefits to voting leave. This appears to be evident now



I've shared 'my position' on here at great length (as my remain 'friends' will attest). If you cba to read it that's fine by me.


----------



## teuchter (Jul 28, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Thanks for your analysis of the PEP by the way.


I wasn't aware that I had provided one.


----------



## Karl Masks (Jul 28, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I've shared 'my position' on here at great length (as my remain 'friends' will attest). If you cba to read it that's fine by me.


you're absolutely right. I cba to read 373 pages. 

so here we are, economy tanking, ERG in charge. Did you think that would happen?


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 28, 2022)

brogdale said:


> QED
> 
> Claims that it is possible to "move on" from the consequences of the referendum outcome, (good or ill), that the outcome was "right", that it represented a "kick in the bollocks to our rulers" are all very much located in the affective domain and can sound very much like the quasi-religious hopes of the newly converted zealot.



No it doesn't.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 28, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> you're absolutely right. I cba to read 373 pages.
> 
> so here we are, economy tanking, ERG in charge. Did you think that would happen?


no, i thought it would be worse than this


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 28, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I've now had the chance to read this. I have also read some of the other articles posted up here subsequently. The FT piece isn't bad. It is quite correct to suggest that Johnson and Starmer, and the parties that they lead, do not have an idea, or a convincing vision, of the type of economic landscape that needs to be adopted post-Brexit and that large swathes of Britian's political and narrating class is currently paralyzed as a result: rabbits in the economic headlights. The article doesn't say, but should, that one effect of this is that they do not have a serious approach to dealing with the current crisis either, caused by rising prices and inflation caused by excessive corporate profit and the historically unprecedented transfer of wealth from us to the 1%. A process which frankly dwarves the sum of £40bn discussed by the FT in its article.
> 
> The article also, conveniently, overlooks 40 years of economic activity and policy making in the UK - whilst it was part of the EU economic arrangements - that perhaps better suggests why the UK economy is tanking and why wages are falling. Low levels of investment, poor productivity, a lack of international competitiveness and exports failing to keep up with imports are not problems that have arisen in the last 5 years. They have been gradually embedding facts and deformities of the British economy since 1973. The manufactured goods base in the accounts for less than 10% of the economy: the smallest in the G7 and across much of Europe. Almost everything that we buy – TVs, washing machines, mobile phones – is imported (and imported from outside of the EU) and has been for decades. Britain has not had a trade surplus for almost 50 years and our trade deficit has grown each year (arguably the decline has been sped up since the pandemic and Brexit but the underlying trend is much longer run).  So, when economists say that the British economy is performing worse than the EU (which is true, but is merely comparing two dreadful economic forecasts) they are correct but conveniently overlook the structural economic reasons.
> 
> ...



Karl Masks


----------



## brogdale (Jul 28, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> No it doesn't.


On that, we won't agree.


----------



## Karl Masks (Jul 28, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> no, i thought it would be worse than this


sunlit uplands


----------



## bimble (Jul 28, 2022)

How was it “a generational kick in the teeth for our rulers and would be rulers” seriously I would love to know.
If it was remotely that how come the Tory party served it up on a plate and then got back in riding it’s coattails to a massive majority?
Crazy talk.


----------



## Karl Masks (Jul 28, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Karl Masks


 thanks.

So can you tell me what a successful lexit, whatever term is preferred I don't mind, would look like? How could it have been achieved?


----------



## brogdale (Jul 28, 2022)

bimble said:


> How was it “a generational kick in the teeth for our rulers and would be rulers” seriously I would love to know.
> If it was remotely that how come the Tory party served it up on a plate and then got back in riding it’s coattails to a massive majority?
> Crazy talk.


What happens when Base & Superstructure are misinterpreted.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 28, 2022)

bimble said:


> How on earth was it that? Next thing was an 80 seat majority for boris Johnson’s get brexit done party and rees-mogg the cartoon toff as the iconic champion of the Ministry of it.


You seem to be missing the two years and three months between the 2019 election and jrm being appointed minister for brexit opportunities. Perhaps you were just dozing


----------



## bimble (Jul 28, 2022)

David Cameron having a bad day isn’t quite the same thing as “a generational kick in the bollocks to our would be rulers’ is it. Slim pickings.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jul 28, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> You seem to be missing the two years and three months between the 2019 election and jrm being appointed minister for brexit opportunities. Perhaps you were just dozing



Ah yes, when Britain became a socialist wonderland. Golden era.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 28, 2022)

Artaxerxes said:


> Ah yes, when Britain became a socialist wonderland. Golden era.


I don't know what you've taken but I hope you brought enough for the rest of us


----------



## teuchter (Jul 28, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> So can you tell me what a successful lexit, whatever term is preferred I don't mind, would look like?


A slight increase in the number of essays pontificating on the opportunities existing in the post Brexit landscape that others should work out how to take advantage of.


----------



## Yossarian (Jul 28, 2022)

bimble said:


> I keep reading on here about the Working Class-ness of the brexit vote and its weird because i live in the middle of a really smug affluent bit of middle England which voted leave, its as if you are ignoring all of my neighbours, the whole village full of retired accountants and national trust members in their vastly overpriced quaint cottages with their stupid bunting still up. Both the archetypes are stupid fictions i dont get why people feel the need to keep pushing them.



Yeah, the Leave/Remain voters can be broken down into all kind of subgroups, with the Leave majorities including young people, Black people, Scottish people, Londoners, Scousers, and an astonishing 97% of people who insist on pronouncing "ciabbata" correctly. 

As I've probably said on this thread before, the vote by class would probably have looked a lot closer if the barriers to citizenship for the million of working-class people from Eastern Europe who had made their homes in Britain before 2016 weren't so high.


----------



## SysOut (Jul 28, 2022)

Alf Garnett was a leftist?


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Jul 28, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> no, i thought it would be worse than this


Give it time.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jul 28, 2022)

philosophical said:


> I am delighted at the prospect of a united planet, good to dream. However in the meantime there are the practical realities to deal with.


Talking about Ireland, not the planet. One step at a time.

A long overdue end to the horrors of partition is very much practical.


----------



## Cerv (Jul 28, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Precisely. But in 2022 it’s taken on a quasi-religious status for middle class liberals.



"quasi-religious" sounds like a better description for e.g. Liz "I'll do a second brexit" Truss


----------



## editor (Jul 28, 2022)

In other great Brexit news



> Britain’s exporters have seen their overseas trade stagnate over the past year despite strong growth in domestic demand for their products and booming export markets, according to a survey.
> 
> The British Chambers of Commerce (BCC) said that a survey of 2,600 exporters found a quarter had suffered a fall in exports and another 46% reported no change.
> 
> ...











						British exporters report stagnating trade as post-Brexit delays blamed
					

Customs checks and border queues cited as leading barriers, as only 29% of firms say sales increased in Q2




					www.theguardian.com
				




And:










						Brexit: UK's divorce bill from EU could rise to £42.5bn
					

A minister says inflation could increase the bill for outstanding UK spending commitments to the EU.



					www.bbc.co.uk
				












						EU launches fresh legal action over Northern Ireland border rules
					

The fresh claims come amid a worsening diplomatic row over the Northern Ireland Protocol.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## Ax^ (Jul 28, 2022)

bimble said:


> How was it “a generational kick in the teeth for our rulers and would be rulers” seriously I would love to know.
> If it was remotely that how come the Tory party served it up on a plate and then got back in riding it’s coattails to a massive majority?
> Crazy talk.



But Cameron was a remainer so it was clearly a victory for the working class that most of the country vote in line with Jacob ress Mogg and the ERG

i mean look he working class he eating ready salt walkers


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 28, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> But Cameron was a remainer so it was clearly a victory for the working class that most of the country vote in line with Jacob ress Mogg and the ERG
> 
> i mean look he working class he eating ready salt walkers


he's thinking, now i've got it out the bag what do i do with it


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 28, 2022)

krtek a houby said:


> As have stated numerous times, voted remain as didn't know would be leaving your country
> 
> Was wrong about various aspects of Brexit
> 
> But delighted at the prospect of a 32 county ROI


if it's some bigger 26 cos then it will just be a larger free state


----------



## krtek a houby (Jul 28, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> if it's some bigger 26 cos then it will just be a larger free state


Oh, it'll be a bumpy ride, but it will be free


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 28, 2022)

krtek a houby said:


> Oh, it'll be a bumpy ride, but it will be free


from the northern highlands to the western islands
from the hills of kerry to the streets of free derry
this land was made for you and me (that's how the song goes)


----------



## philosophical (Jul 28, 2022)

krtek a houby said:


> Talking about Ireland, not the planet. One step at a time.
> 
> A long overdue end to the horrors of partition is very much practical.



The end to partition will hopefully happen without a new beginning of terrorism.
In the meantime the EU is over one side and the UK the other side of a border that Lexiters amongst others voted for.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 28, 2022)

‘To the center of the city where all roads meet, waiting for you
To the depths of the ocean where all hopes sank, searching for you’


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 28, 2022)

krtek a houby said:


> Oh, it'll be a bumpy ride, but it will be free


the rocky road to dublin


----------



## SysOut (Jul 28, 2022)

Irish unification would have been easier in a unified western europe.


----------



## Raheem (Jul 28, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> what did left brexit voters think would happen?


That remain would win, I expect.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 28, 2022)

SysOut said:


> Irish unification would have been easier in a unified western


I’d rather tackle the project of creating a United Ireland first and leave creating a unified Western Europe till later tbh


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 28, 2022)

SysOut said:


> Irish unification would have been easier in a unified western europe.


yeh well there's never been a unified western europe


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 28, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> I’d rather tackle the project of creating a United Ireland first and leave creating a unified Western Europe till later tbh


yeh baby steps first


----------



## bimble (Jul 28, 2022)

The idea that the referendum was a massive ‘generational’ setback for ‘our rulers’ is so baffling I’m still wondering about it hours later, outside McDonald’s in Watford.
It’s a bit like how we Jews are still waiting for the messiah who will when he finally turns up make the world all good whilst somehow  other religions are able to think he already came and all is now as it should be. Completely weird. Where is any evidence at all that it was a seismic victory against the ruling class in any way?


----------



## Cerv (Jul 28, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> But Cameron was a remainer so it was clearly a victory for the working class that most of the country vote in line with Jacob ress Mogg and the ERG
> 
> i mean look he working class he eating ready salt walkers


double parked with two different types of crisp.
but not even different flavours.


----------



## SysOut (Jul 28, 2022)

> The39thStep said: #11,206
> I’d rather tackle the project of creating a United Ireland first and leave creating a unified Western Europe till later tbh


Yes. First Ireland, then Britain.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 28, 2022)

SysOut said:


> Yes. First Ireland, then Britain.


don't think you'll have much luck with a united britain


----------



## krtek a houby (Jul 28, 2022)

SysOut said:


> Yes. First Ireland, then Britain.



Freedom for Scotland you mean


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 28, 2022)

Faro border control : one set of desks / booths EU , the others the Rest of World . 
Went to the former with U.K. passport , no problem


----------



## krtek a houby (Jul 28, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> the rocky road to dublin


Dublin fatigue is setting in after over 3 weeks here

But not going to blame it on Brexit


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 28, 2022)

krtek a houby said:


> Dublin fatigue is setting in after over 3 weeks here
> 
> But not going to blame it on Brexit


try forno 500 at 74 dame street, really good pizza at a reasonable price but you might want to book


----------



## SysOut (Jul 28, 2022)

Woodrow Wilson's dream of ethnic nations.
(aka Apartheid)


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 28, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh well there's never been a unified western europe


Nothing wrong with a bit of blue sky thinking rather than the normal sky is falling down stuff that we get from the more excitable types on here .


----------



## krtek a houby (Jul 28, 2022)

SysOut said:


> Woodrow Wilson's dream of ethnic nations.
> (aka Apartheid)



Yes, we had that in Ireland, didn't go down too well

(Aka Sectarianism and Partition and brutal colonisation)


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 28, 2022)

krtek a houby said:


> Yes, we had that in Ireland, didn't go down too well
> 
> (Aka Sectarianism and Partition and brutal colonisation)


luckily you never had to put up with woodrow wilson


----------



## krtek a houby (Jul 28, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> luckily you never had to put up with woodrow wilson


There's a few Wilsons we could have done without, tbf


----------



## Chilli.s (Jul 28, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> It was the right decision at the time. A generational kick in the bollocks to our rulers and would be rulers.


I think you are right about it being a kick in the bollocks, but it was actually a cutting the nose off despite the face kinda kick. And not at all directed at our rulers, sadly directed at everyone. Just own it, it was a shit decision and has no benefit.

Ironic that the few people who possibly can twist this to their own advantage will be doing it  anyway and give not a fuck what way the wind blows


----------



## bimble (Jul 28, 2022)

Oh I missed that bit of Smokeandsteam about how “it was the right decision At the time”
What is that supposed to mean? It usually means that if you had the same choice today you’d choose differently but it can’t possibly be that because look at the ruling class observe their generationally kicked bollocks.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 28, 2022)

Chilli.s said:


> I think you are right about it being a kick in the bollocks, but it was actually a cutting the nose off despite the face kinda kick. And not at all directed at our rulers, sadly directed at everyone. Just own it, it was a shit decision and has no benefit.



You've made 3 points there. I disagree with all of them. 

On point 1, I've posted research on this thread showing the widespread popular working class view that there lives couldn't get worse and therefore the dire warnings about what would happen if they dared to vote to leave the EU cut absolutely no ice. All of the evidence is that 6 years on their views haven't changed much. The Remainers often demand 'evidence' of how Brexit has improved the lives of our side. But for many of our class the vote wasn't about that and wasn't done with that expectation at all.
On point 2, the widespread view that I heard again and again was "if they (the rich/politicians/the sneering PMC types) want x we will vote y. In that sense the kick was perfectly aimed and delivered. Looking at the endless wailing in some quarters 6 years on only adds to the impression of the success of the blow. 
On point 3, if there was another vote tomorrow I'd campaign and vote to Leave again. The EU is rotten to the core. A bloated and failing neo-liberal construct that offers nothing for us but a race to the bottom. For those tempted to bleat that the Tories are worse I'd say a) they weren't in the referendum b) had Labour stuck to its original position or even better campaigned to leave things would be very different and a vey different type of Brexit could have been delivered. It still can be.


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## Smokeandsteam (Jul 28, 2022)

.


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## Smokeandsteam (Jul 28, 2022)

bimble said:


> Oh I missed that bit of Smokeandsteam about how “it was the right decision At the time”
> What is that supposed to mean? It usually means that if you had the same choice today you’d choose differently but it can’t possibly be that because look at the ruling class observe their generationally kicked bollocks.



Nope. See above.


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## bimble (Jul 28, 2022)

Well tbh it’s nice to know that at least one person is having a good brexit, you seem quite happy. Very much hope you’re wrong about this being as good as it gets for a generation though. Or whatever you meant .


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## Karl Masks (Jul 28, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> .


So what did you think leaving would achieve? What do you want to happen now?


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## philosophical (Jul 28, 2022)

Why any individual voted is guesswork...unless I suppose you have consulted all 17+ million.
However the 'what' is easily answered, it was for the whole of the UK to leave the whole of the EU.
If Lexiters could acknowledge that is what they voted for, then maybe they could accept that they are responsible for explaining how that happens on the land border with the EU in practical terms.
Perhaps it would help them turn their minds from their poseur ideological wankfest, and think up some immediate real world solutions. 
Six years and counting.


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## bimble (Jul 28, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> On point 2, the widespread view that I heard again and again was "if they (the rich/politicians/the sneering PMC types) want x we will vote y. In that sense the kick was perfectly aimed and delivered. Looking at the endless wailing in some quarters 6 years on only adds to the impression of the success of the blow.


The people whose views you heard again & again, presumably they didn’t vote in the 2019 GE. Those were other brexit supporters who did that, not the kind you choose to ventriloquise for. Your ones who dealt the deadly blow etc are a select number who definitely didn’t go on to vote for BJ and the get brexit done party.


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## Yossarian (Jul 28, 2022)

A generational fondling of Ukippers' bollocks, more like.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Jul 28, 2022)

bimble said:


> The people whose views you heard again & again, presumably they didn’t vote in the 2019 GE. Those were other brexit supporters who did that,



No they weren't.


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## Duncan2 (Jul 28, 2022)

Smokeandsteam is perfectly right to say that there is little or no evidence that those millions of working class people who voted for Brexit have no regrets and would vote leave again tomorrow if that became necessary.I would humbly suggest that people on here who seem unable to accept that this is the case quite likely have it in common with our chancellor that they don't actually know that many working class people.There is a new militancy about and I think it is a mistake to discount the extent to which for good or ill working class folk feel empowered as they have not been for decades .


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## Ax^ (Jul 28, 2022)

no evidence that they have no regrets

so we should just talk one person take as the will of the working class

jebus the presumption that every other poster on here with a different option is a middle class liberal is slight tedious


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## Duncan2 (Jul 28, 2022)

How else to explain the fact that after everything that has been revealed Johnson is still PM and contemplating an eventual comeback.


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## Kevbad the Bad (Jul 28, 2022)

Duncan2 said:


> Smokeandsteam is perfectly right to say that there is little or no evidence that those millions of working class people who voted for Brexit have no regrets and would vote leave again tomorrow if that became necessary.I would humbly suggest that people on here who seem unable to accept that this is the case quite likely have it in common with our chancellor that they don't actually know that many working class people.There is a new militancy about and I think it is a mistake to discount the extent to which for good or ill working class folk feel empowered as they have not been for decades .


Your first sentence contains a double negative and may be missing some punctuation. Or may be contradictory. Or it may just be me. But I can't make out what you're saying.


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## Duncan2 (Jul 28, 2022)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> Your first sentence contains a double negative and may be missing some punctuation. Or may be contradictory. Or it may just be me. But I can't make out what you're saying.


You're right meant to say have regrets 😃


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## contadino (Jul 28, 2022)

Duncan2 said:


> Smokeandsteam is perfectly right to say that there is little or no evidence that those millions of working class people who voted for Brexit have no regrets and would vote leave again tomorrow if that became necessary.I would humbly suggest that people on here who seem unable to accept that this is the case quite likely have it in common with our chancellor that they don't actually know that many working class people.There is a new militancy about and I think it is a mistake to discount the extent to which for good or ill working class folk feel empowered as they have not been for decades .


There's plenty of polls, stats, and analysis that people are calling time on Brexit. This from today...









						Truss's journey from remain to leave may have to become a circular tour
					

She was right to oppose Brexit during the 2016 referendum campaign




					yorkshirebylines.co.uk
				




By all means, ignore it. Or harp on about how fucking over the poor is all part of a plan to help the poor.


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## Duncan2 (Jul 28, 2022)

contadino said:


> There's plenty of polls, stats, and analysis that people are calling time on Brexit. This from today...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah read it not exactly conclusive?


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## contadino (Jul 28, 2022)

Duncan2 said:


> Yeah read it not exactly conclusive?


Like I said, ignore it.


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## teuchter (Jul 28, 2022)

Duncan2 said:


> How else to explain the fact that after everything that has been revealed Johnson is still PM and contemplating an eventual comeback.


It's certainly the case that the campaign to bring down Johnson has been a snooty middle class one, led by Dominic Cummings and cheered on by the Guardian, liberal academic types on u75 and so on, as I'm sure we can all agree.


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## bimble (Jul 28, 2022)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> No they weren't.


What do you mean? You think people who voted leave were to a large extent the same people who voted conservative at the 2019 GE? I think so too. Certainly the case round here. Which makes it a bit of a rubbish ‘generational kick in the bollocks to the ruling class’ really.
ETA yep look at it. Areas with strong leave vote were much more likely to go on a couple of years later to vote tory. Inspiring stuff.



			https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/general-election-2019-brexit/


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## krtek a houby (Jul 28, 2022)

teuchter said:


> It's certainly the case that the campaign to bring down Johnson has been a snooty middle class one, led by Dominic Cummings and cheered on by the Guardian, liberal academic types on u75 and so on, as I'm sure we can all agree.



Ugh


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## The39thStep (Jul 28, 2022)

Often think , quite fondly ,that this thread is a marvellous modern tribute to the likes of Hiroo Onoda.


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## Ax^ (Jul 28, 2022)

not sure which side of the argument

you are hinting at


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## krtek a houby (Jul 28, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> not sure which side of the argument
> 
> you are hinting at



Things can only get better?

No surrender?

You can have the sword now?


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## Dystopiary (Jul 28, 2022)

As disabled people on benefits get more and more shafted (thanks for introducing that shit, New Labour), Brexit has made it harder for any of them who could, and wanted to, to make a new life elsewhere. What class are they if they started off working class and ended up in the shit? Underclass? I don't see much solidarity with those people from any quarters.


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## existentialist (Jul 29, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> But Cameron was a remainer so it was clearly a victory for the working class that most of the country vote in line with Jacob ress Mogg and the ERG
> 
> i mean look he working class he eating ready salt walkers


I bet he's never eaten a crisp in his life.


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## inva (Jul 29, 2022)

Dystopiary said:


> As disabled people on benefits get more and more shafted (thanks for introducing that shit, New Labour), Brexit has made it harder for any of them who could, and wanted to, to make a new life elsewhere. What class are they if they started off working class and ended up in the shit? Underclass? I don't see much solidarity with those people from any quarters.


What class are imaginary poor disabled people flocking to the EU to start a new life with nothing? Who knows tbh. And you already made pretty much this exact post before except even more into the realm of fantasy:


Dystopiary said:


> For some people - some of the most disadvantaged in the UK - the idea of being able to get out of here and live somewhere else with little or no money was a bit of hope. That when trying to jump through hoops of fire to get a pittance off the state to live off became too much, or when the government decided to make it even harder to claim disability benefits, that rather than starve to death they could get out, try their luck at the mercy of the EU. People who can't work.
> 
> No chance of that now. Hardly a middle-class bougeois stance.
> 
> Waiting for someone who doesn't have to worry about this to come and pick holes in that argument.


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## maomao (Jul 29, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> it's 373 pages. that's not gonna happen. If you don't want to share your position, that's fine,


You read half the thread as glitch hiker anyway.


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## Doctor Carrot (Jul 29, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> no evidence that they have no regrets
> 
> so we should just talk one person take as the will of the working class
> 
> jebus the presumption that every other poster on here with a different option is a middle class liberal is slight tedious


This, this is what really fucks me off about this thread. Several posters on here think they're some sort of spokes persons for the working class as if the entire working class all think one way and that if you think Brexit wasn't exactly a great idea you're some how not working class enough, don't know anybody who's working class or aren't really working class at all and that you only voted remain because you're some sort of wet liberal who thinks the EU is a flawless institution. 

The idea that those same people are now saying things like 'if only Labour got their act together we'd have a different Brexit' is comedy gold. 

There is of course the beginngs of a fight back from unions but I don't see how Brexit has enabled that. Being in the EU hasn't exactly stunted France's Unions has it?


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## bimble (Jul 29, 2022)

The only ten seats that the tories lost at the last election had all voted remain so they must be full of middle class liberal bastards out of touch with working class concerns. Meanwhile three quarters of the seats where the tories won in 2019 had just been part of that epic generational anti ruling class bollocks kicking.
It’s so ridiculous that it’s funny, watching people on here striving try to keep the faith with their made up heroic story about what the referendum meant.


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## inva (Jul 29, 2022)

Doctor Carrot said:


> This, this is what really fucks me off about this thread. Several posters on here think they're some sort of spokes persons for the working class as if the entire working class all think one way and that if you think Brexit wasn't exactly a great idea you're some how not working class enough, don't know anybody who's working class or aren't really working class at all and that you only voted remain because you're some sort of wet liberal who thinks the EU is a flawless institution.
> 
> The idea that those same people are now saying things like 'if only Labour got their act together we'd have a different Brexit' is comedy gold.
> 
> There is of course the beginngs of a fight back from unions but I don't see how Brexit has enabled that. Being in the EU hasn't exactly stunted France's Unions has it?


Apart from that the thread has been entirely reasonable 😁


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## The39thStep (Jul 29, 2022)




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## Yossarian (Jul 29, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> View attachment 335030



"A different type of Brexit could still be delivered!"


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## Doctor Carrot (Jul 29, 2022)

bimble said:


> The only ten seats that the tories lost at the last election had all voted remain so they must be full of middle class liberal bastards out of touch with working class concerns. Meanwhile three quarters of the seats where the tories won in 2019 had just been part of that epic generational anti ruling class bollocks kicking.
> It’s so ridiculous that it’s funny, watching people on here striving try to keep the faith with their made up heroic story about what the referendum meant.


I'm reminded of that Harry Enfield character who went on about being considerably richer than you. Only on here it's 'I'm considerably more working class than you'


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## Ax^ (Jul 29, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> View attachment 335030



Little bit mean smoke has not been at it for 10000 nights


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## Doctor Carrot (Jul 29, 2022)

.


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## Smokeandsteam (Jul 29, 2022)

Doctor Carrot said:


> I'm reminded of that Harry Enfield character who went on about being considerably richer than you. Only on here it's 'I'm considerably more working class than you'



Top marks for the snark about how people from Birmingham speak. Wonder who that's aimed at 


Doctor Carrot said:


> This, this is what really fucks me off about this thread. Several posters on here think they're some sort of spokes persons for the working class as if the entire working class all think one way and that if you think Brexit wasn't exactly a great idea you're some how not working class enough, don't know anybody who's working class or aren't really working class at all and that you only voted remain because you're some sort of wet liberal who thinks the EU is a flawless institution.
> 
> The idea that those same people are now saying things like 'if only Labour got their act together we'd have a different Brexit' is comedy gold.
> 
> There is of course the beginngs of a fight back from unions but I don't see how Brexit has enabled that. Being in the EU hasn't exactly stunted France's Unions has it?



This is all over the shop. Your comment about people acting as the 'spokes persons' for the working class is simply untrue. You've conflated the use of research and people mentioning their own lived experience either mistakenly or disingenuously here. Of course, not all remainers intent on fighting 2016 over and over again are middle class liberals, but I'd argue that a sample of FBPE twitter does suggest a _predominance _of middle class liberals amongst their rank. Would you agree?

Nobody has airily said "if only Labour got their act together". What has actually been said is a) that Corbyn and McDonnell paid a heavy price for abandoning their share lifelong opposition to the EU and that b) the real disaster was Remain supporters pushing Corbyn away from Labour position of respecting and enacting the result to the car carsh of a second referendum and labour campaigning against any deal it would have negotiated. Remainers need to own that by the way: they created the conditions for Johnson.

On your final point, I agree. There is the beginning of a fightback. RMT, CWU, Unite and others are explicitly fighting back and making clear that they are not waiting for Labour to do so. One of the reasons for that is the lessons learnt from the disaster that was the Party's handling of Brexit. As Len McCLuskey said  “The more that Labour slid into being perceived as a Remain party the more we were saying that there would be consequences in our heartlands and unfortunately that's what has come about”. The lesson for Mick Lynch, Sharon Graham and others is that we can't wait for Labour to repair the damage or to fight back.


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## Doctor Carrot (Jul 29, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Top marks for the snark about how people from Birmingham speak. Wonder who that's aimed at


I've no idea where you're from and it was nothing to do with the accent just the character. I speak with a mild cockney accent, bit like Mick Lynch. Am I working class enough for you now? 


Smokeandsteam said:


> This is all over the shop. Your comment about people acting as the 'spokes persons' for the working class is simply untrue. You've conflated the use of research and people mentioning their own lived experience either mistakenly or disingenuously here. Of course, not all remainers intent on fighting 2016 over and over again are middle class liberals, but I'd argue that a sample of FBPE twitter does suggest a _predominance _of middle class liberals amongst their rank. Would you agree?


I do agree, yes. I'm not on twitter and I doubt anyone here is really in the cohort you suggest.

Obviously my spokesperson for the working class thing is aimed at you because you seem a bit desperate to prove just how working class you are at times. My beef is your snarky remarks at me at and several posters being middle class remoaners because we don't precisely align with you on Brexit. It's a bit too purist, nevermind the fact it's incorrect. 


Smokeandsteam said:


> Nobody has airily said "if only Labour got their act together". What has actually been said is a) that Corbyn and McDonnell paid a heavy price for abandoning their share lifelong opposition to the EU and that b) the real disaster was Remain supporters pushing Corbyn away from Labour position of respecting and enacting the result to the car carsh of a second referendum and labour campaigning against any deal it would have negotiated. Remainers need to own that by the way: they created the conditions for Johnson.


Fair enough because it sounded like you were depending on labour to deliver something. I think a whole load of factors contributed to them not winning in 2019 but I don't think you can attribute Johnson to remainers in the labour party. You can attribute him to Brexit and now Truss. You voted for it so I think it's leavers that need to own it more than remainers do but we're not gonna agree on that. 



Smokeandsteam said:


> On your final point, I agree. There is the beginning of a fightback. RMT, CWU, Unite and others are explicitly fighting back and making clear that they are not waiting for Labour to do so. One of the reasons for that is the lessons learnt from the disaster that was the Party's handling of Brexit. As Len McCLuskey said  “The more that Labour slid into being perceived as a Remain party the more we were saying that there would be consequences in our heartlands and unfortunately that's what has come about”. The lesson for Mick Lynch, Sharon Graham and others is that we can't wait for Labour to repair the damage or to fight back.


Totally agree with all that but the heartlands being lost started a long time before this shit show. 

In essence everyone on this site is on the same side as far as union fight back is concerned and probably more broadly, except for Brexit obviously. I just think dismissing everyone's concerns about the shit Brexit has put this country in as 'middle class psychodrama' especially on this thread is just as sneery as you accuse others of being. Loads of young working class people wanted to remain because the EU meant something different to them than it does to you. I'm sure you don't just dismiss all them in the same way do you?


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## Smokeandsteam (Jul 29, 2022)

bimble said:


> The only ten seats that the tories lost at the last election had all voted remain so they must be full of middle class liberal bastards out of touch with working class concerns. Meanwhile three quarters of the seats where the tories won in 2019 had just been part of that epic generational anti ruling class bollocks kicking.
> It’s so ridiculous that it’s funny, watching people on here striving try to keep the faith with their made up heroic story about what the referendum meant.



You might have a point there Bimble to be fair. I mean, what could the connection be between historically Labour voting working class areas - that were pro-leave - and their voting against a remain Labour Party that put before them the offer of a second vote to attempt to overturn the first one. The Labour Party would have also offered to negotiate a deal to leave the EU and then to campaign against their own deal. A brilliant idea by Starmer and the politically sophisticated remain campaign.

Similarly your research indicates that some middle class remain areas voted against the Tories and for pro-remain parties.

It's all one big mystery....


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## Doctor Carrot (Jul 29, 2022)

And you made me feel bad with your sad face on my post now! Honestly it was just the character and not the accent. Mrs Carrot is from your part of the world.


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## bimble (Jul 29, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> You might have a point there Bimble to be fair. I mean, what could the connection be between historically Labour voting working class areas - that were pro-leave - and their voting against a remain Labour Party that put before them the offer of a second vote to attempt to overturn the first one. The Labour Party would have also offered to negotiate a deal to leave the EU and then to campaign against their own deal. A brilliant idea by Starmer and the politically sophisticated remain campaign.
> 
> Similarly your research indicates that some middle class remain areas voted against the Tories and for pro-remain parties.
> 
> It's all one big mystery....


So it was an epic generational kick in the bollocks to our rulers and would be rulers which also quite naturally led to a massive win for the Tory party and there’s no contradiction there at all, Ok. I do think it’s funny your characterisation of events, and how much you need to ignore to stick to it.


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## Smokeandsteam (Jul 29, 2022)

Doctor Carrot said:


> I've no idea where you're from and it was nothing to do with the accent just the character.



Fair enough.



Doctor Carrot said:


> I do agree, yes. I'm not on twitter and I doubt anyone here is really in the cohort you suggest.
> 
> Obviously my spokesperson for the working class thing is aimed at you because you seem a bit desperate to prove just how working class you are at times. My beef is your snarky remarks at me at and several posters being middle class remoaners because we don't precisely align with you on Brexit. It's a bit too purist, nevermind the fact it's incorrect.


This thread is littered with FBPE stuff. Do you accept that those posting that stuff might have some empathy?

Also, to clarify, I am not suggesting that all of those who want to fight 2016 over and over again are middle class liberals. What I am saying is the political form that remain has taken very much is middle class liberalism. It's limits are calling for the UK to return to the EU and some vagueness about reform (let's set aside the tendencies for unedified crowing about job losses showing they were right and the deliberate conflation of Brexit with the pandemic and economic crisis for now). As a political formation it has nothing to say about the crisis across Europe: populists on the rise in France, Hungary, Italy, Portugal and Spain. Germany engulfed in crisis, growing economic and political divergence between north and south, the sovereign debt crisis, the racist closed border policy operated etc etc. In that sense its become something more than a rational set of political demand and the actual real existing EU (which we were members of for 60 years) has been replaced by something else.   



Doctor Carrot said:


> Fair enough because it sounded like you were depending on labour to deliver something. I think a whole load of factors contributed to them not winning in 2019 but I don't think you can attribute Johnson to remainers in the labour party. You can attribute him to Brexit and now Truss. You voted for it so I think it's leavers that need to own it more than remainers do but we're not gonna agree on that.



We agree then that Johnson and the insurgent tory true believers are the symptoms. However, as you say, we do not agree on the cause.  All I would add is that it might be worth thinking through how things might have been different had Corbyn and McDonnell (two lifelong opponents of the EU in the Benn/Labour Left tradition) had faced down the remainers in their own party and set out their own vision for a post-Brexit Britain in 2017 and had then gone in to the 2019 GE fighting for it. Instead the only option for leave voters was either not to vote or to vote for Johnson.   



Doctor Carrot said:


> Totally agree with all that but the heartlands being lost started a long time before this shit show.
> 
> In essence everyone on this site is on the same side as far as union fight back is concerned and probably more broadly, except for Brexit obviously. I just think dismissing everyone's concerns about the shit Brexit has put this country in as 'middle class psychodrama' especially on this thread is just as sneery as you accuse others of being. Loads of young working class people wanted to remain because the EU meant something different to them than it does to you. I'm sure you don't just dismiss all them in the same way do you?



That is not correct - sadly. There have been arguments on here about a number of issues - strikes in the distribution sector, agricultural workers, P&O and the RMT and other matters.

As for young people being pro-remain I agree with you - although there are important geographical and class differentials even within that group. But, once you engage and talk to young people you soon discover that what they want and what the EU economic union is are not always the same things. Their desire to be Europeans, to travel freely and to live in a diverse multi-racial society isn't contingent on our membership of an economic strategy imposed by neo-liberals in the EU. 

The final thing I'd add is that I have refrained from posting on this thread for months. It's a circular argument, the thread isn't doing anything useful and I'd rather spend my time on here talking about the now - the economy, the cost of living crisis etc. But, when the silence is interpreted as 'a dawning realization that we were wrong and remain was right' then it'll need to be responded to...


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## Smokeandsteam (Jul 29, 2022)

Doctor Carrot said:


> And you made me feel bad with your sad face on my post now! Honestly it was just the character and not the accent. Mrs Carrot is from your part of the world.



Just replied to you on that. No offence taken.


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## Smokeandsteam (Jul 29, 2022)

bimble said:


> So it was an epic generational kick in the bollocks to our rulers and would be rulers which also quite naturally led to a massive win for the Tory party and there’s no contradiction there at all, Ok. I do think it’s funny your characterisation of events, and how much you need to ignore to stick to it.



Let's try again. 

At the election one party committed to honoring the result of the referendum. The rest of the parties committed to try to overturn it and had spent the entre run up to the election trying to. How surprising it is that those who felt strongly in a) the result and b) the attempt to overturn it was wrong would vote for the former and not the latter or at best not vote?


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## bimble (Jul 29, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Let's try again.
> 
> At the election one party committed to honoring the result of the referendum. The rest of the parties committed to try to overturn it and had spent the entre run up to the election trying to. How surprising it is that those who felt strongly in a) the result and b) the attempt to overturn it was wrong would vote for the former and not the latter or at best not vote?


Yes yes, I understand, people voted brexit and then of course they voted for the get brexit done party led by boris Johnson. It’s just the bit about the generational kick in bollocks to our rulers that I’m laughing at, days later. It was a good one.


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## Smokeandsteam (Jul 29, 2022)

bimble said:


> It’s just the bit about the generational kick in bollocks to our rulers that I’m laughing at, days later. It was a good one.



Christ, you’re tedious. Have a read. Have a word with yourself after. No need to apologise. No need to reply with ‘you think’, I don’t care



			https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/0309816819873310
		




			https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/1468-4446.12329
		




			https://repository.uel.ac.uk/download/9a7c68478eb643920be40e4866de0a9cd2db3826153587d42503294823063025/500668/7829.pdf


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## Yossarian (Jul 29, 2022)

bimble said:


> So it was an epic generational kick in the bollocks to our rulers and would be rulers which also quite naturally led to a massive win for the Tory party and there’s no contradiction there at all, Ok. I do think it’s funny your characterisation of events, and how much you need to ignore to stick to it.



With a prominent Remainer-turned-Brexiteer who served in the Cameron, May, and Johnson cabinets now on course to become the next Tory PM, the effect of Brexit on the country's rulers seems much like the effect of nuclear war on cockroaches.


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## bimble (Jul 29, 2022)

Oh dear. That’s some properly aggressive link posting there Smokeandsteam. You seem upset. Not my intention. You claimed that the ruling class was dealt a terrible once in a generation blow by brexit. That’s not about why people voted leave it’s a claim about the impact of the vote on the ruling class. But I won’t try to annoy you further.


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## Smokeandsteam (Jul 29, 2022)

bimble said:


> Oh dear. That’s some properly aggressive link posting there Smokeandsteam. You seem upset. Not my intention. You claimed that the ruling class was dealt a terrible once in a generation blow by brexit. That’s not about why people voted leave it’s a claim about the impact of the vote on the ruling class. But I won’t try to annoy you further.



Bored. Not upset.


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## Ax^ (Jul 29, 2022)

hmm so we are saying that a significant percentage of the leave vote was just a protest  vote against
the middle class liberals in London who have not been listening them 30 years


we should of just had a referendum on which red sauce  is superior or cheese before beans


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## bimble (Jul 29, 2022)

The desire to kick someone in the bollocks is a noble thing but it’s not at all the same as causing them an actual injury. But yes boring now.


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## ska invita (Jul 29, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> All I would add is that it might be worth thinking through how things might have been different had Corbyn and McDonnell (two lifelong opponents of the EU in the Benn/Labour Left tradition) had faced down the remainers in their own party and set out their own vision for a post-Brexit Britain in 2017 and had then gone in to the 2019 GE fighting for it.


Out of interest would you have been happy with the UK staying in the customs union? Labour policy 2017 was essentially Norway - aka Brexit In Name Only to the Kippers.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 29, 2022)

ska invita said:


> Out of interest would you have been happy with the UK staying in the customs union? Labour policy 2017 was essentially Norway - aka Brexit In Name Only to the Kippers.


Good question that . At the time of the referendum I was for leave and negotiate something like Norway. 
We can only speculate how negotiations would have gone if there had been a Labour victory.


----------



## ska invita (Jul 29, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Good question that . At the time of the referendum I was for leave and negotiate something like Norway.
> We can only speculate how negotiations would have gone if there had been a Labour victory.


How it played out in reality is one thing but there is detail of the position Lab wouldve taken in the  2017 manifesto.

I also was 'happy' for a rule-taking/alignment Norway outcome


----------



## JimW (Jul 29, 2022)

bimble said:


> Oh dear. That’s some properly aggressive link posting there Smokeandsteam. You seem upset. Not my intention. You claimed that the ruling class was dealt a terrible once in a generation blow by brexit. That’s not about why people voted leave it’s a claim about the impact of the vote on the ruling class. But I won’t try to annoy you further.


It's why I voted leave. Genuinely a once in a generation opportunity to chuck a spanner in the works of a key ruling class project eta simply by voting. The technocratic project really is greater threat over the longer term to democratic interests than the short term ascendancy of the worst of our worst governing party.


----------



## ska invita (Jul 29, 2022)

JimW said:


> It's why I voted leave. Genuinely a once in a generation opportunity to chuck a spanner in the works of a key ruling class project eta simply by voting. The technocratic project really is greater threat over the longer term to democratic interests than the short term ascendancy of the worst of our worst governing party.



Would Norway have satisfied an exit from that for you?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jul 29, 2022)

I think we could have had a more bespoke thing; staying in the CU and everything else but without freedom of movement. We were never in Schengen, so half way there anyway, since 2016 France has been looking in to how they can have exactly that for themselves.


----------



## JimW (Jul 29, 2022)

ska invita said:


> Would Norway have satisfied an exit from that for you?


Yes, it was really the surprise at them offering us a vote on things they'd deliberately e.g. prevented Ireland having because of internal Tory strife and never expecting the outcome they got. Miss that and it wouldn't have come round again.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 29, 2022)

ska invita said:


> How it played out in reality is one thing but there is detail of the position Lab wouldve taken in the  2017 manifesto.
> 
> I also was 'happy' for a rule-taking/alignment Norway outcome


Also at the time there was a brief and short lived remain but reform position by some on the left . Of course that attempt at some critical thinking just evaporated into hot air leaving the liberal FBPE obsessives to fly the flag .


----------



## bimble (Jul 29, 2022)

JimW said:


> It's why I voted leave. Genuinely a once in a generation opportunity to chuck a spanner in the works of a key ruling class project eta simply by voting. The technocratic project really is greater threat over the longer term to democratic interests than the short term ascendancy of the worst of our worst governing party.


i do understand that, in principle. Maybe my main problem is i'm too pessimistic but also impatient as well. So the amount of IFs involved in a good outcome from brexit are far too many and stretch too far from anything here and now to seem important.

Do you think within your own lifetime you'll see the UK having become a better place to live in than it would have been had it stayed inside the project?


----------



## JimW (Jul 29, 2022)

bimble said:


> i do understand that, in principle. Maybe my main problem is i'm too pessimistic but also impatient as well. So the amount of IFs involved in a good outcome from brexit are far too many and stretch too far from anything here and now to seem important.
> 
> Do you think within your own lifetime you'll see the UK having become a better place to live in than it would have been had it stayed inside the project?


I don't know, I'm also pessimistic as I think external factors from the climate/environmental crisis are going to create a really unpleasant and dangerous situation, but genuinely feel that the technocratic style both undermines democracy over the long run - world now too complex for us little folk to understand - and has an active part in making that complexity and remoteness (and thus ultimate fragility) in its push for the current global trade framework, which is after all what its initial remit was (trading bloc), then it followed the logic of that, which included abrogating all sorts of powers that popular actors like unions could no longer be trusted to wield.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Jul 29, 2022)

bimble said:


> i do understand that, in principle. Maybe my main problem is i'm too pessimistic but also impatient as well. So the amount of IFs involved in a good outcome from brexit are far too many and stretch too far from anything here and now to seem important.
> 
> Do you think within your own lifetime you'll see the UK having become a better place to live in than it would have been had it stayed inside the project?


When we were in the EU there was already a steady decline in living standards happening year on year for most people in the UK. Brexit has disrupted that in a bunch of quite complicated ways, some of them postive and some of them negative.

Brexit was an indicator that a lot of people had had enough. So not Brexit itself, but what it indicated, shows that there is the potential to reset "business as usual". These things are messy though, so I can't offer any utopian visions or even a certaintly that things will get better.


----------



## bimble (Jul 29, 2022)

Similar to JimW i'm much more worried about environmental collapse & its consequences right now, here and very soon i mean not in the future or elsewhere. I think that's made it even harder to have any kind of long term hopes for this or any other one country going its own way, just cant seem to do it, it feels almost frivolous tbh.


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Jul 29, 2022)

Remain and reform was my position. I was really surprised there wasn't some sort of fudge deal that more or less pleased everyone or something like Norway. That would've been my vote. I really wasn't expecting it to be a completely hard Brexit, even with Johnson leading because he's always been in favour of the EU until he realised he could become PM by campaigning for leave.


----------



## existentialist (Jul 29, 2022)

Doctor Carrot said:


> I'm reminded of that Harry Enfield character who went on about being considerably richer than you. Only on here it's 'I'm considerably more working class than you'


"Prolier than thou"


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 29, 2022)

JimW said:


> It's why I voted leave. Genuinely a once in a generation opportunity to chuck a spanner in the works of a key ruling class project eta simply by voting. The technocratic project really is greater threat over the longer term to democratic interests than the short term ascendancy of the worst of our worst governing party.



Spot on. Perfectly put


----------



## MrSki (Jul 29, 2022)

Doctor Carrot said:


> Mrs Carrot is from your part of the world.


Any relation to Jasper?


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Jul 29, 2022)

MrSki said:


> Any relation to Jasper?


Yes


----------



## Ax^ (Jul 29, 2022)

JimW said:


> It's why I voted leave. Genuinely a once in a generation opportunity to chuck a spanner in the works of a key ruling class project eta simply by voting. The technocratic project really is greater threat over the longer term to democratic interests than the short term ascendancy of the worst of our worst governing party.



Fair point would be happeir if the governing party was not having a firesale of working class right and appear they still be in power for a decade


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## Artaxerxes (Jul 29, 2022)

Doctor Carrot said:


> Remain and reform was my position. I was really surprised there wasn't some sort of fudge deal that more or less pleased everyone or something like Norway. That would've been my vote. I really wasn't expecting it to be a completely hard Brexit, even with Johnson leading because he's always been in favour of the EU until he realised he could become PM by campaigning for leave.




Other Leaves were available (indeed at one point the MPs from all parties spent a day voting down half a dozen options while the fbpe Twitter cheered them on)


What we got is the worst of leaves and the only leave that we were likely to get while the conservatives let the lunatics dictate policy and into cabinet.


----------



## Yossarian (Jul 30, 2022)

JimW said:


> It's why I voted leave. Genuinely a once in a generation opportunity to chuck a spanner in the works of a key ruling class project eta simply by voting. The technocratic project really is greater threat over the longer term to democratic interests than the short term ascendancy of the worst of our worst governing party.



Well said - the vote was, as usual, essentially a choice between flavours of shit sandwich and I don't know why the discussion so often goes back to how and why people voted in 2016, who the fuck cares anymore? 

There was a period when other Brexits were possible but unless Dr. Strange has zapped us into the multiverse, the Brexit that ended up happening was the only Brexit, and people who voted Leave six long and strange years ago shouldn't feel personally wounded when people criticise how badly the Tory government has fucked it up.

The whole marching around with EU flags and calling for a second referendum thing seemed kind of stupid to me at the time, Britain appears doomed to an elliptical orbit around the more enthusiastic EU members and the issue's never going to go away. 

And there is one definite benefit of Brexit - the British experience has set an example other countries seem disinclined to follow, making it easier to present a united front against China and Russia.


----------



## brogdale (Jul 30, 2022)

JimW said:


> It's why I voted leave. Genuinely a once in a generation opportunity to chuck a spanner in the works of a key ruling class project eta simply by voting. The technocratic project really is greater threat over the longer term to democratic interests than the short term ascendancy of the worst of our worst governing party.


A well argued and expressed position.

Although I accept that for some Leave voters the 'spanner in the works' of the "ruling class" idea was foremost, I still feel unconvinced about this line of argument. In the neoliberal context there has to be reductive risks to identifying politicians as a "ruling class". Globalised and finnancialised capital with no perceived regional, let alone national, obligations appeared and continue to appear  comfortable with the UK's withdrawal from the European trading and regulatory project. After all the 'choice' put before the UK electorate was alternative visions of how best to accommodate or accelerate neoliberal capital's interests.


----------



## bimble (Jul 30, 2022)

Deregulation, “liberating businesses to maximise on the opportunities of brexit” etc etc is the only thing that is a clear next step so far, as in an actually happening result of brexit, that and a weak currency. How that impacts people who live here we don’t really know yet but seems very unlikely to hurt the bosses more than it hurts everyone else.


----------



## philosophical (Jul 30, 2022)

Leave voters voted for a land border between the UK and the EU.
All speculation beyond this about aspiration and motivation of voters is simply that, speculation.
Leavers voted for a controlled border between the UK and the EU on the island of Ireland. A border that has provoked terrible terrorism and bloodshed which has been to the fore in my lifetime.
Until the Belfast/Good Friday Agreement.


----------



## Duncan2 (Jul 30, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> Fair point would be happeir if the governing party was not having a firesale of working class right and appear they still be in power for a decade


I have to say the thing about Tories still being in power for a decade looks a bit shakier now they have been obliged to jettison their poster boy for Brexit notwithstanding the current disorientation of the Labour Party.


----------



## JimW (Jul 30, 2022)

brogdale said:


> A well argued and expressed position.
> 
> Although I accept that for some Leave voters the 'spanner in the works' of the "ruling class" idea was foremost, I still feel unconvinced about this line of argument. In the neoliberal context there has to be reductive risks to identifying politicians as a "ruling class". Globalised and finnancialised capital with no perceived regional, let alone national, obligations appeared and continue to appear  comfortable with the UK's withdrawal from the European trading and regulatory project. After all the 'choice' put before the UK electorate was alternative visions of how best to accommodate or accelerate neoliberal capital's interests.


It's not about personifying a ruling class - the driving logic is the set of economic arrangements it serves and further embeds - and of course capital is never a monolith, but the current most dangerous strand in terms of presenting a plausible stable system is this democracy lite technocratic strand; it has much in common with the Chinese state in its direction of travel despite the different history.
Thatcher famously said economics is the method, and that's the purpose of a suprastate that can take various aspects of the economy out of reach of electorates in member states, not because it's some dastardly scheme, because that's the vision. An horrible historical error.


----------



## brogdale (Jul 30, 2022)

JimW said:


> It's not about personifying a ruling class - the driving logic is the set of economic arrangements it serves and further embeds - and of course capital is never a monolith, but the current most dangerous strand in terms of presenting a plausible stable system is this democracy lite technocratic strand; it has much in common with the Chinese state in its direction of travel despite the different history.
> Thatcher famously said economics is the method, and that's the purpose of a suprastate that can take various aspects of the economy out of reach of electorates in member states, not because it's some dastardly scheme, because that's the vision. An horrible historical error.


Yep, that's certainly a coherent rationale for engaging with the Tory referendum and it was pretty much Streeck's view as well. The thing I struggle with is that it seems like it's necessary to have faith/belief in the capacity for 1 national polity (sat between technocratic, de-democratised blocs) to impose any democratic influence on neoliberal capital. Personally, I can't see any players within what passes for our representative democracy with any political will to do that, let alone ability. We may be invited to choose different sets of sub-contracted managers of the scaffolding around the neoliberal project, but 'the economy' remains out of reach to the electorate whether we're in to out of the supra state.


----------



## JimW (Jul 30, 2022)

brogdale said:


> Yep, that's certainly a coherent rationale for engaging with the Tory referendum and it was pretty much Streeck's view as well. The thing I struggle with is that it seems like it's necessary to have faith/belief in the capacity for 1 national polity (sat between technocratic, de-democratised blocs) to impose any democratic influence on neoliberal capital. Personally, I can't see any players within what passes for our representative democracy with any political will to do that, let alone ability. We may be invited to choose different sets of sub-contracted managers of the scaffolding around the neoliberal project, but 'the economy' remains out of reach to the electorate whether we're in to out of the supra state.


Why does it imply faith? It just means that of the two shit options you have a somewhat better chance here, plus the hiatus in the glorious roll to a new dispensation. Again, don't think anyone thought it was sufficient to deliver much of anything, it was just the correct choice of the binary. All the work is still left to do.


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## philosophical (Jul 30, 2022)

Do the work of sorting out the land border.


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## brogdale (Jul 30, 2022)

JimW said:


> Why does it imply faith? It just means that of the two shit options you have a somewhat better chance here, plus the hiatus in the glorious roll to a new dispensation. Again, don't think anyone thought it was sufficient to deliver much of anything, it was just the correct choice of the binary. All the work is still left to do.


Yep, maybe 'faith' is too value-laden a term to use, but I think I'm reading you right that you do believe the Lexit position that exiting the supra state has improved the chance of working towards a democratic challenge to neoliberal capital. I suppose where we diverge is that I don't think that I ever real bought into the Lexit belief that being in or out of the Union made any real difference to the prospect of democratic socialism in the UK capable of challenging the neoliberal order. 

My perception is that there were significant numbers of voters who did believe that Brexit, in and of itself, would be sufficient to deliver real change, and some still do. To that extent the Tories' ongoing framing of the spectacle as an 'insurgent' triumph of national liberation was and is, IMO, a damaging distraction from the realities of the neoliberal base that impoverishes our class. 

I'm yet to hear any convincing argument explaining what exiting the trading arrangements with the supra state did to enhance the chances of challenge to neoliberal capital.


----------



## Chilli.s (Jul 30, 2022)

It doesnt matter what was voted for and what the outcome was when such a complicated event is reduced to an in/out decision. The failure in all this lies squarely at the feet of the people who instigated it. It aint a binary choice by any stretch of anyones imagination


----------



## not a trot (Jul 30, 2022)

Doctor Carrot said:


> This, this is what really fucks me off about this thread. Several posters on here think they're some sort of spokes persons for the working class as if the entire working class all think one way and that if you think Brexit wasn't exactly a great idea you're some how not working class enough, don't know anybody who's working class or aren't really working class at all and that you only voted remain because you're some sort of wet liberal who thinks the EU is a flawless institution.
> 
> The idea that those same people are now saying things like 'if only Labour got their act together we'd have a different Brexit' is comedy gold.
> 
> There is of course the beginngs of a fight back from unions but I don't see how Brexit has enabled that. Being in the EU hasn't exactly stunted France's Unions has it?



Immigration will have been the main reason most working class people voted leave.


Artaxerxes said:


> Other Leaves were available (indeed at one point the MPs from all parties spent a day voting down half a dozen options while the fbpe Twitter cheered them on)
> 
> 
> What we got is the worst of leaves and the only leave that we were likely to get while the conservatives l*et the lunatics dictate policy and into cabinet.*


Bollocks. The lunatics were the ones who gave Johnson his thumping majority. And all because they believed Brexit would stop immigrants coming in. The thick cunts still don't understand the difference between, immigration and freedom of movement. And as for the neoliberalism bollocks, how many genuine working class people even know what that is, or even care.


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## Artaxerxes (Jul 30, 2022)

not a trot said:


> Immigration will have been the main reason most working class people voted leave.
> 
> Bollocks. The lunatics were the ones who gave Johnson his thumping majority. And all because they believed Brexit would stop immigrants coming in. The thick cunts still don't understand the difference between, immigration and freedom of movement. And as for the neoliberalism bollocks, how many genuine working class people even know what that is, or even care.




I was referring to the ERG group that May went over and above to placate.


----------



## brogdale (Jul 30, 2022)

Chilli.s said:


> It doesnt matter what was voted for and what the outcome was when such a complicated event is reduced to an in/out decision. The failure in all this lies squarely at the feet of the people who instigated it. It aint a binary choice by any stretch of anyones imagination


I dunno, it was perfectly legitimate for pressure groups to agitate and organise to instigate a withdrawal from the supra state even by means of a binary plebiscite. After all that's exactly what the UK electorate were offered in 1975 when asked to ratify the governmental decision to join. I suppose the key difference is that back then the 'change' option was pretty much 'remain', whereas 41 years later the 'change' option was out. If blame is to be attached to anyone it is surely to the Tory administration that drove the referendum for intra-party political purposes with little if any thought given to the chances of success for the 'change' option.


----------



## Dystopiary (Jul 30, 2022)

not a trot said:


> Immigration will have been the main reason most working class people voted leave.



Not sure about that. Of course it was a reason for lots of people but most working class people aren't anti-immigrant. And surely there were at least as many middle class people who voted leave for that reason.



> Bollocks. The lunatics were the ones who gave Johnson his thumping majority. And all because they believed Brexit would stop immigrants coming in. The thick cunts still don't understand the difference between, immigration and freedom of movement. And as for the neoliberalism bollocks, how many genuine working class people even know what that is, or even care.



Honestly not sure working class people - especially younger wc people - are any less likely to know what it is than mc.


----------



## Duncan2 (Jul 31, 2022)

Dystopiary said:


> Not sure about that. Of course it was a reason for lots of people but most working class people aren't anti-immigrant. And surely there were at least as many middle class people who voted leave for that reason.
> 
> 
> 
> Honestly not sure working class people - especially younger wc people - are any less likely to know what it is than mc.


This


----------



## editor (Aug 3, 2022)

This does a good job of showing the very real damage that Brexit has done



> In the face of Westminster’s mixture of silence and forced optimism, Brexit is having a measurably dire effect on just about all of us. A recent survey done by the opinion pollsters Ipsos showed that the proportion of Britons who think the UK’s exit from the EU has made their daily life worse has gone up from 30% in June 2021 to 45% now, a figure that includes just under a quarter of people who voted leave.











						Spiralling inflation, crops left in the field and travel chaos: 10 reasons Brexit has been disastrous for Britain
					

As small businesses crumble, shelves get emptier and the care-worker shortage intensifies, life outside the EU is having a dire effect on many of us. Why aren’t politicians talking about it?




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Aug 3, 2022)

editor said:


> This does a good job of showing the very real damage that Brexit has done
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm afraid your bias is showing through here. Your examples may well be true, but you fail to point out all the benefits of Brexit, like er, um, you know, thingy and suchlike.


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## Artaxerxes (Aug 3, 2022)

Me and Games Workshop have a varied and sometimes antagonistic history but this little zinger from its financial statement is a lovely little bit of snark.


----------



## TopCat (Aug 3, 2022)

editor said:


> I'm not laughing at them. I'm just exasperated that we're in this never ending shitstorm and equally baffled by the Brexit fans who continue to insist that it's all been worth it because [insert vague wibble here].


After all these years I think you are just too stupid to understand. It’s been explained again and again and again and all you hear or process is er wibble


----------



## TopCat (Aug 3, 2022)

Chilli.s said:


> so still no benefits at all then


(Insert wanker smiley here)


----------



## Ax^ (Aug 3, 2022)

Rees-Mogg stumbles through Brexit defence as he blasts France 'Portugal is more fun!’


wanker cosplaying as Ebenezer scrooge  admits he was wrong but to avoid any responsibility blames the French and suggest the plebs go to Portugal
as it more fun


ah the benefits of Brexit


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## Karl Masks (Aug 3, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> Rees-Mogg stumbles through Brexit defence as he blasts France 'Portugal is more fun!’
> 
> 
> wanker cosplaying as Ebenezer scrooge  admits he was wrong but to avoid any responsibility blames the French and suggest the plebs go to Portugal
> ...


I'd like the brexit the cunt in the face. Then he can cosplay as someone needing emergency trauma care.

In minecraft obviously


----------



## SysOut (Aug 3, 2022)

Where do the car ferries to Portugal leave from?


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## brogdale (Aug 3, 2022)

TopCat said:


> After all these years I think you are just too stupid to understand. It’s been explained again and again and again and all you hear or process is er wibble


Are you upset because nothing has changed for the better?


----------



## 2hats (Aug 3, 2022)

SysOut said:


> Where do the car ferries to Portugal leave from?


Near the entrance to the rail tunnel to Portugal.


----------



## ska invita (Aug 3, 2022)

brogdale said:


> Are you upset because nothing has changed for the better?


Wages have gone up!


----------



## Ax^ (Aug 3, 2022)

thankfully inflation has stopped us all going crazy with the extra money


----------



## editor (Aug 3, 2022)

TopCat said:


> After all these years I think you are just too stupid to understand. It’s been explained again and again and again and all you hear or process is er wibble


One minute you're avoiding tricky questions by telling everyone you've put me on ignore but then - _would you believe it?!_ - you pop up again 24 hours later to do the exact same thing, but this time with a nasty personal insult thrown in.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Aug 3, 2022)

Sunlit uplands from Giffgaff.



> We will be making some changes to our EU roaming allowance to ensure we can continue to offer great value at home and still provide you with data while you’re abroad. From 9th August, giffgaff members will be able to use up to 5GB of their goodybag allowance in the EU and selected destinations at no extra cost. Beyond this, there’ll be a charge of 10p/mb while roaming.
> 
> 
> We know that having data while in the EU is important to you all, however, as some of you might know, we incur interconnect costs when people roam in the EU. Under the EU legislation, all UK mobile networks had to absorb this cost. Considering the difficulties that arise from the cost of living crisis, we wanted to do as much as we can to help so we have taken the decision to mitigate some of that cost, so that we can at least give our members up to 5GB to roam in the EU, at no extra cost.


----------



## editor (Aug 3, 2022)

The Brexit wins keep on coming for businesses: 



> *Cattle exports to European countries are at a standstill post-Brexit, a Dorset breeder has said.*
> Wessex Lowlines rears high-pedigree Lowline breed cows, which it sells outside the UK.
> After Brexit, no border control posts were set up at European ports to process livestock entering from the UK.
> As result, the breeder said it was currently unable to export its cattle and had lost £150,000 worth of orders since February.











						Dorset cattle breeder says exports at a standstill post-Brexit
					

Dorset farm says lack of border control posts to check animals entering Europe has cost it £150,000.



					www.bbc.co.uk
				




And for ordinary folks wanting to go on holiday 



> Post-Brexit travel rules have been in force since January 1, 2021. But there are even more restrictions set to be placed on British travellers since the UK left the EU.
> Currently, UK nationals need to abide by new passport rules and entry requirements, but later this year, they will also be expected to register for a new visa waiver programme before entering a country in the Schengen Zone.
> Since leaving the EU, UK nationals must now follow the same rules as people from non-EU countries, which tend to be stricter.
> Holiday makers must ensure they meet the new requirements for entering EU countries like France and Spain before travelling–or they could be turned away at the airport.





			archive.ph


----------



## existentialist (Aug 3, 2022)

TopCat said:


> (Insert wanker smiley here)


Is that like "do your own research"?


----------



## teuchter (Aug 4, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> I'd like the brexit the cunt in the face.


I see.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Aug 4, 2022)

Got my first EU passport stamp.

A memento to cherish


----------



## Ax^ (Aug 4, 2022)

something tangible from brexit

/end of thread


----------



## bimble (Aug 4, 2022)

Brexit harm denial and how it’s very much like a conspiracy theory, thought this idea was pretty good.




__





						Brexit supporters constantly deny that that problems caused by Brexit have anything to do with Brexit. Does this remind you of anything?
					

I hope this will not come as a shock to US readers, but one of the constants of UK culture is to laugh at the ability of so many in the US...




					mainlymacro.blogspot.com


----------



## brogdale (Aug 6, 2022)

Have we had this continental mainland story of brexit benefits yet?


----------



## Artaxerxes (Aug 6, 2022)

brogdale said:


> Have we had this continental mainland story of brexit benefits yet?
> 
> View attachment 336300



Bootstraps for them


----------



## sleaterkinney (Aug 6, 2022)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> I think we could have had a more bespoke thing; staying in the CU and everything else but without freedom of movement. We were never in Schengen, so half way there anyway, since 2016 France has been looking in to how they can have exactly that for themselves.


More fantasy. We hold all the cards. Italian prosecco makers.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Aug 6, 2022)

JimW said:


> It's why I voted leave. Genuinely a once in a generation opportunity to chuck a spanner in the works of a key ruling class project eta simply by voting. The technocratic project really is greater threat over the longer term to democratic interests than the short term ascendancy of the worst of our worst governing party.


My vote means the same as it did before the referendum, and politicians had plenty of means of making lives better or worse. Now the worst of the worst is in power for nothing.


----------



## contadino (Aug 6, 2022)

brogdale said:


> Have we had this continental mainland story of brexit benefits yet?
> 
> View attachment 336300


"Yeah well. It's not conclusive, is it" seems to be the standard response.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Aug 6, 2022)

sleaterkinney said:


> More fantasy. We hold all the cards. Italian prosecco makers.



Yeah? We couldn’t have what France actually wants? Well, out we go then, hope it brings you everything you bellends want.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Aug 6, 2022)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Yeah? We couldn’t have what France actually wants? Well, out we go then, hope it brings you everything you bellends want.


Even Le Pen has stopped pushing Frexit because they can see the disaster it is.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 6, 2022)

sleaterkinney said:


> My vote means the same as it did before the referendum, and politicians had plenty of means of making lives better or worse. Now the worst of the worst is in power for nothing.


The worst of the worst? You ain't seen nothing yet


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 6, 2022)

sleaterkinney said:


> Even Le Pen has stopped pushing Frexit because they can see the disaster it is.


Actually she has changed tack because the fortress ethno EU project her and other far right elements want is now thought to be more achievable in the EU than outside .


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 6, 2022)

brogdale said:


> Have we had this continental mainland story of brexit benefits yet?
> 
> View attachment 336300


This is about a delay in issuing the biometric residency card . This also applies to the Brazilians, the Ukrainians and other foreigners who live here as well as the Brits.


----------



## brogdale (Aug 6, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> This is about a delay in issuing the biometric residency card . This also applies to the Brazilians, the Ukrainians and other foreigners who live here as well as the Brits.


Control, eh?


----------



## Ax^ (Aug 6, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> This is about a delay in issuing the biometric residency card . This also applies to the Brazilians, the Ukrainians and other foreigners who live here as well as the Brits.


of course this not being a problem for Brits before the vote has nothing to do with brexit and it's just the remainers being petty


----------



## Ax^ (Aug 6, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Actually she has changed tack because the fortress ethno EU project her and other far right elements want is now thought to be more achievable in the EU than outside .


----------



## Tanya1982 (Aug 7, 2022)

I read yesterday that British pawnbrokers are absolutely booming. It wasn't one of the promised dividends, but it could prove to be that elusive Brexit benefit that's been MIA all these years.


----------



## Raheem (Aug 7, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Actually she has changed tack because the fortress ethno EU project her and other far right elements want is now thought to be more achievable in the EU than outside .


That's a good one.


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 7, 2022)

Raheem said:


> That's a good one.


Thanks . Certainly more plausible than sleaterkinneys post. I think Le Pens strategy was to implement her manifesto , the legislation that would ‘provoke’ the EU , show the electorate it that national sovereignty was impossible and take it from there .


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 7, 2022)

brogdale said:


> Control, eh?


Dunno about that but applied for a biometric card during the first lockdown and still haven’t had an appointment just the barcoded acknowledgment of application . I’ve used this to fly to England and back and go to Spain and never had any trouble and never seen anyone else have any either. 
Obviously if the Guardian’s full time Brexit correspondent is on the case the Portuguese govt won’t spare the horses in getting it fixed .


----------



## brogdale (Aug 7, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Dunno about that but applied for a biometric card during the first lockdown and still haven’t had an appointment just the barcoded acknowledgment of application . I’ve used this to fly to England and back and go to Spain and never had any trouble and never seen anyone else have any either.
> Obviously if the Guardian’s full time Brexit correspondent is on the case the Portuguese govt won’t spare the horses in getting it fixed .


Surely the UK government urging member states to fully implement the withdrawal agreement will solve the issue, eh?


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 7, 2022)

brogdale said:


> Surely the UK government urging member states to fully implement the withdrawal agreement will solve the issue, eh?
> 
> View attachment 336332



In the same way as the Brazilian govt , Cape Verde , Ukrainian, Chinese  govt and govts of other residents from outside the EU will have done. about protecting the rights of their citizens who are all affected by the inefficient rollout.


----------



## brogdale (Aug 7, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> In the same way as the Brazilian govt , Cape Verde , Ukrainian, Chinese  govt and govts of other residents from outside the EU will have done. about protecting the rights of their citizens who are all affected by the inefficient rollout.


In the same way that they've agreed, signed and threatened to renege on a withdrawal from?


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 7, 2022)

brogdale said:


> In the same way that they've agreed, signed and threatened to renege on a withdrawal from?


It might not be to the liking of some posters on here but the Portuguese government hasn't threatened to renege.


----------



## Cerv (Aug 7, 2022)

I think brogdale meant that the UK government by "they" in that post.

who are threatening to renege on it, specifically regarding the NI arrangements.


----------



## bimble (Aug 7, 2022)

brogdale said:


> Surely the UK government urging member states to fully implement the withdrawal agreement will solve the issue, eh?
> 
> View attachment 336332


This is pretty funny in a hollow laugh sort of way. It’s like they think a few select parts of the agreement we signed should be adhered to properly but not the rest of it, the inconvenient bits should be politely ignored else it’s a case of uppity spiteful foreigners.


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 7, 2022)

Cerv said:


> I think brogdale meant that the UK government by "they" in that post.
> 
> who are threatening to renege on it, specifically regarding the NI arrangements.


Really?


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 7, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> of course this not being a problem for Brits before the vote has nothing to do with brexit and it's just the remainers being petty


I think the problem mainly is excitable posters getting carried away by Guardian headlines and hoping that Brits would somehow be punished for Brexit. 

It is with regret, as I didn't want to pop your balloon and for you to put the fizzy cider away, that I have to inform you that before Brexit the certificate of residence in Portugal was mandatory.  Along with a fiscal number this gives you access to their NHS  and other services and allows you to pay tax etc. 

The biometric change is to comply with an EU rollout to prevent fraud.


----------



## Ax^ (Aug 7, 2022)

hmm during the time in the EU you had one that lat five years


now outside the EU, ex pat's would need to have one issues  for the first year and then have renewed it every 2 year to the five year limit has been reached before you can get the permanent  

so don't want to spill your sagres but it's still more hassle that before brexit


----------



## bimble (Aug 7, 2022)

I do love it that the person who is probably our most enthusiastic Brexiter happens to live in the eu.


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 7, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> hmm during the time in the EU you had one that lat five years
> 
> 
> now outside the EU, ex pat's would need to have one issues  for the first year and then have renewed it every 2 year to the five year limit has been reached before you can get the permanent
> ...


Again , and I’m drinking white port and tonic , if you google quicker , faster and harder you will find that the biometric card renewal is done on line after the first initial appointment whereas before it was all paper and appointments . The new ones will also come with health number / fiscal / social security . 

This affects all foreigners . 


This whole story is bigger amongst the Guardian reading remain fbpe types in the U.K. than it actually is for people living here but I thank you for your concern . Sincerely .


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 7, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Again , and I’m drinking white port and tonic , if you google quicker , faster and harder you will find that the biometric card renewal is done on line after the first initial appointment whereas before it was all paper and appointments . The new ones will also come with health number / fiscal / social security .
> 
> This affects all foreigners .
> 
> ...


Fbpe is fuck Britain prefer Europe, isn't it


----------



## Ax^ (Aug 7, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Again , and I’m drinking white port and tonic , if you google quicker , faster and harder you will find that the biometric card renewal is done on line after the first initial appointment whereas before it was all paper and appointments . The new ones will also come with health number / fiscal / social security .
> 
> This affects all foreigners .
> 
> ...



oh fuck off with the guardian shite 

that was the rules regarding EU members that British had before brexit


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 7, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> oh fuck off with the guardian shite
> 
> that was the rules regarding EU members that British had before brexit


I've noticed over our years of correspondence, some up/some down,  that you have a tendency to resort to swearing when the going gets tough. It's not necessary.


----------



## Ax^ (Aug 7, 2022)

I'm from the north side of Dublin ya daft twat

not swearing is the exception, and I noticed that the tend to start trolling about the guardian when you have  talked yourself into a corner and are talking ballocks 


ex pat living in Portugal trying to so the " I'm more working class" that you troupe. cop on to yourself..


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 7, 2022)

bimble said:


> I do love it that the person who is probably our most enthusiastic Brexiter happens to live in the eu.



Wait till you meet the Portuguese Communist Party or Left Bloc


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 7, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> I'm from the north side of Dublin ya daft twat
> 
> not swearing is the exception, and I noticed that the tend to start trolling about the guardian when you have  talked yourself into a corner and are talking ballocks
> 
> ...


What, drumcondra or points further north?


----------



## brogdale (Aug 7, 2022)

Cerv said:


> I think brogdale meant that the UK government by "they" in that post.
> 
> who are threatening to renege on it, specifically regarding the NI arrangements.


The39thStep knew that.


----------



## Ax^ (Aug 7, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> What, drumcondra or points further north?


close more or less next door, currently posting from my aunties garden in Finglas west


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 7, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> I'm from the north side of Dublin ya daft twat
> 
> not swearing is the exception, and I noticed that the tend to start trolling about the guardian when you have  talked yourself into a corner and are talking ballocks
> 
> ...



I'm not all all sure why you edited your original post  to try and get a dig in. No matter let me reassure you I am far from the more working class than you type. as those who are still left on the boards would bear out.  I am a pro working class militant and anti fascist but I've never hidden my  career, what I ended up doing, how I got there and I'd probably bore you senseless about my bourgeois tastes if we met.


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 7, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> Fbpe is fuck Britain prefer Europe, isn't it


Normally with a Ukraine flag next to it for some reason.


----------



## brogdale (Aug 7, 2022)

bimble said:


> I do love it that the person who is probably our most enthusiastic Brexiter happens to live in the eu.


Well holding particular views regarding the supra state are not necessarily geographically or nationally determined; it's perfectly reasonable for EU member state residents to take a view on Brexit. That said, views expressed from beyond our independent polity will obviously be open to criticism that they are formed in a context insulated from the most evident downsides of the process.


----------



## teuchter (Aug 7, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Actually she has changed tack because the fortress ethno EU project her and other far right elements want is now thought to be more achievable in the EU than outside .


Can you explain this a little more?

For example, if France was outside of the EU why would she want to achieve an ethno-fortress EU?

And why is it more easy for France to become an ethno-Fortress inside the EU than outside?


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 7, 2022)

brogdale said:


> Well holding particular views regarding the supra state are not necessarily geographically or nationally determined; it's perfectly reasonable for EU member state residents to take a view on Brexit. That said, views expressed from beyond our independent polity will obviously be open to criticism that they are formed in a context insulated from the most evident downsides of the process.


I am sure that you will acknowledge that there is a difference, which the more sensible posters on here have discussed , between the downsides of Johnsons Brexit and what may have been possible. 

I'm more in the Mélenchon camp ( I know,  the bloody French eh?) although I suspect that if he was English and running the same campaign in the UK he would have also stirred the hornet's nest of FPBEs on here.


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 7, 2022)

teuchter said:


> Can you explain this a little more?
> 
> For example, if France was outside of the EU why would she want to achieve an ethno-fortress EU?
> 
> And why is it more easy for France to become an ethno-Fortress inside the EU than outside?


Let me come back to you on that. My visitors have returned with a load of food .


----------



## Ax^ (Aug 7, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> I'm not all all sure why you edited your original post  to try and get a dig in. No matter let me reassure you I am far from the more working class than you type. as those who are still left on the boards would bear out.  I am a pro working class militant and anti fascist but I've never hidden my  career, what I ended up doing, how I got there and I'd probably bore you senseless about my bourgeois tastes if we met.



I edit for spelling and grammar seeming as I'm on a phone and not at a desk as I'm not at home

and the dig just came in cause you spending all morning waffling in and throwing dig as the guardian readers like you are a cut above anyone else posting on the thread, but feel free to get defensive


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 7, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> I edit for spelling and grammar seeming as I'm on a phone and not at a desk as I'm not at home
> 
> and the dig just came in cause you spending all morning waffling in and throwing dig as the guardian readers like you are a cut above anyone else posting on the thread, but feel free to get defensive


Come on be honest . You edited to add a last sentence about me not to correct spelling and grammar .

We were discussing an article in the Guardian btw . Anyway sorry you feel this way .


----------



## Ax^ (Aug 7, 2022)

please feel free to continue defending brexit when consequences of it are being high lighted to you


----------



## Tanya1982 (Aug 7, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Wait till you meet the Portuguese Communist Party or Left Bloc


I'll look forward to having dinner with the two of them. They can tell me how it feels to pull Portugal out of the EU, in their dreams. Enjoy your port and freedom of movement.


----------



## bimble (Aug 7, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> what may have been possible.


Well, yes, in a parallel and quite different universe I agree brexit could have been a good idea, but we don’t live there and that was blindingly obvious back in 2016 as well.
All sorts of things that are thoroughly shit could have been good in another parallel universe, and probably seemed a good idea to a lot of people at the time, for instance Christianity or Facebook, but here we are stuck in this singular stupid universe and those things are not good just because you can imagine how they might once upon a time have turned out nicely.


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 7, 2022)

Tanya1982 said:


> I'll look forward to having dinner with the two of them. They can tell me how it feels to pull Portugal out of the EU, in their dreams. Enjoy your port and freedom of movement.


Thanks Tanya . Don't think we have met before. Out of interest what would you eat if you were dining with them?


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 7, 2022)

bimble said:


> Well, yes, in a parallel and quite different universe I agree brexit could have been a good idea, but we don’t live there and that was blindingly obvious back in 2016 as well.
> All sorts of things that are thoroughly shit could have been good in another parallel universe, and probably seemed a good idea to a lot of people at the time, for instance Christianity or Facebook, but here we are stuck in this singular stupid universe and those things are not good just because you can imagine how they might once upon a time have turned out nicely.


You don't sound your normal chipper self Bimble, whats up ?


----------



## brogdale (Aug 7, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> I am sure that you will acknowledge that there is a difference, which the more sensible posters on here have discussed , between the downsides of Johnsons Brexit and what may have been possible.
> 
> I'm more in the Mélenchon camp ( I know,  the bloody French eh?) although I suspect that if he was English and running the same campaign in the UK he would have also stirred the hornet's nest of FPBEs on here.


It’s a bit of an obvious truism to say that there’s a difference between the Tory Brexit and what may have been possible. 

Not sure where that takes discussion tbh?


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 7, 2022)

brogdale said:


> It’s a bit of an obvious truism to say that there’s a difference between the Tory Brexit and what may have been possible.
> 
> Not sure where that takes discussion tbh?


On! On! Towards page 400


----------



## bimble (Aug 7, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> You don't sound your normal chipper self Bimble, whats up ?


Funnily enough I’m chipperer today than I’ve been for a while, had a brilliant time just grubbing around in the garden for about hours, have dirt under all nails now including toes.


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 7, 2022)

brogdale said:


> It’s a bit of an obvious truism to say that there’s a difference between the Tory Brexit and what may have been possible.
> 
> Not sure where that takes discussion tbh?


This isn’t a thread for taking discussion in any direction , as I suspect you probably know . A lot of posters on here would be very upset if that was the case and their routine was disturbed .


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 7, 2022)

bimble said:


> Funnily enough I’m chipperer today than I’ve been for a while, had a brilliant time just grubbing around in the garden for about hours, have dirt under all nails now including toes.


Good for you .


----------



## bimble (Aug 7, 2022)

brogdale said:


> It’s a bit of an obvious truism to say that there’s a difference between the Tory Brexit and what may have been possible.
> 
> Not sure where that takes discussion tbh?


Its just him saying that he voted for a different brexit, a really cool one that goes to a different school, not this crappy one that we are living in. If he voted from Portugal idk.


----------



## bimble (Aug 7, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Good for you .


It is. I love it.  Btw my favourite weird little  plant selling man told me today that he’s packing up shop because it doesn’t work anymore with the cost of importing stuff from Europe, so he’s shutting down in a month or two, the place is going to be sold to a developer for flats. Which is shit, he has a grey parrot who lives in the shed and doesn’t talk but whistles many tunes. I’ll miss them a lot,


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 7, 2022)

bimble said:


> Its just him saying that he voted for a different brexit, a really cool one that goes to a different school, not this crappy one that we are living in. If he voted from Portugal idk.


‘Him’? Sort of cats whiskers thing that Bimble . Wouldn’t dream of referring to you like that . Actually I was in the U.K. at the time .


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 7, 2022)

bimble said:


> It is.


That’s what I meant , sincerely. I love a bit of gardening and pottering about


----------



## bimble (Aug 7, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> ‘Him’? Sort of cats whiskers thing that Bimble . Wouldn’t dream of referring to you like that . Actually I was in the U.K. at the time .


Cats mother ? apologies most heartfelt, .


----------



## philosophical (Aug 7, 2022)

People throw the word ‘Brexit’ around without explaining what it means.
So far it does not mean the whole of the UK leaving the whole of the EU as voted for.


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 7, 2022)

If it’s any assistance bimble my position very clearly is that on one hand we had the Tory Brexit hardliners , on the other hand the absolutist remainers .These were unfortunately the two main runners .  The latter mainly in the Labour Party but also in the Lib Dem’s . 

Both the hardliners and absolutists played a game of chicken which most normal people , either leave or remain , didn’t want to get dragged into. The absolutionists , who were always bound to lose, absolutely hamstrung Labour making them look incoherent. The absolutists eventually brought down Corbyn and the hardliners brought down May . The price we pay is a Johnson led Brexit , Starmer mugging off his remain acolytes leaving a rump of nutty obsessed FBPE types who no doubt when they die will pass on miniature shrines of the EU to their nearest and dearest . 

All the people who spoke about reforming the EU or who had criticisms or reservations about it have seemingly disappeared and the absolutionists deny they ever existed . 

I hate to say this but when I was in the U.K. Brexit never came up once in any conversation I had apart from a cab driver asking me if it was true that at border control going on holiday they checked if you had the equivalent of 8 euros  a day.


----------



## bimble (Aug 7, 2022)

Oh, on this thing we agree! The way the whole sad show played out was truly awful and it didn’t need to be like that, idiots on all sides. If remain hadn’t been so arrogant and unimaginative then we’d probably have remained.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Aug 7, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Thanks . Certainly more plausible than sleaterkinneys post. I think Le Pens strategy was to implement her manifesto , the legislation that would ‘provoke’ the EU , show the electorate it that national sovereignty was impossible and take it from there .


Had brexit been even a slight success though, her and the other racists would have been laughing, now they have to think about something else.


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 7, 2022)

sleaterkinney said:


> Had brexit been even a slight success though, her and the other racists would have been laughing, now they have to think about something else.


one positive then ?


----------



## brogdale (Aug 7, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> This isn’t a thread for taking discussion in any direction , as I suspect you probably know . A lot of posters on here would be very upset if that was the case and their routine was disturbed .


OK, fair point...I did start a few threads intended to offer scope for Brexit related discussion but, as is the Darwinian nature of forum dynamics, this one won out. That said, its title shouldn't preclude discussion and I'm always happy to use it to call out the deluded aspects of both camps that chose to engage with the Tory referendum on varieties of neoliberalism.


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 7, 2022)

bimble said:


> It is. I love it.  Btw my favourite weird little  plant selling man told me today that he’s packing up shop because it doesn’t work anymore with the cost of importing stuff from Europe, so he’s shutting down in a month or two, the place is going to be sold to a developer for flats. Which is shit, he has a grey parrot who lives in the shed and doesn’t talk but whistles many tunes. I’ll miss them a lot,


How’s he taking his parrot back ?


----------



## Tanya1982 (Aug 7, 2022)

Double post.


----------



## Tanya1982 (Aug 7, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Thanks Tanya . Don't think we have met before. Out of interest what would you eat if you were dining with them?


Valium.


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 7, 2022)

Tanya1982 said:


> Valium.


Not a big eater then ?


----------



## Tanya1982 (Aug 7, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Not a big eater then ?


I didn't mean to sound rude.

Strangely enough, I have actually had dinner with Portuguese communists. I think I had salted cod with salad. Good vinho. It was pre Brexit, so the concept wasn't discussed.


----------



## teuchter (Aug 7, 2022)

Those people who spoke about reforming the EU from within - it's an absolute disgrace that they aren't now stepping up. I can't see what's stopping them.


----------



## Tanya1982 (Aug 7, 2022)

teuchter said:


> Those people who spoke about reforming the EU from within - it's an absolute disgrace that they aren't now stepping up. I can't see what's stopping them.


Exhaustion?

Perhaps all the gloating, haha, 'move to the EU then', 'enemies of the people', 'citizens of nowhere' stuff had the effect of making those it was aimed at think 'well, OK, fuck you - this is all yours, so you get on with it'. People heard, and listened, reflected, and have acted accordingly.

Nobody has so much energy that even more can be expended in helping Brexiters to navigate the reality of their victory.


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 7, 2022)

Tanya1982 said:


> I didn't mean to sound rude.
> 
> Strangely enough, I have actually had dinner with Portuguese communists. I think I had salted cod with salad. Good vinho. It was pre Brexit, so the concept wasn't discussed.


Great stuff bacalhau. My fave is bacalhau com natas  ie with cream. Like a lot of the proper albeit flawed left in Europe the position is, we will do this and this, and if they don't allow us we will go. Very polite the Portuguese CP.


----------



## RD2003 (Aug 7, 2022)

bimble said:


> Its just him saying that he voted for a different brexit, a really cool one that goes to a different school, not this crappy one that we are living in. If he voted from Portugal idk.


I don't get this idea that Britain is a drastically different place after Brexit. It isn't.


----------



## RD2003 (Aug 7, 2022)

bimble said:


> It is. I love it.  Btw my favourite weird little  plant selling man told me today that he’s packing up shop because it doesn’t work anymore with the cost of importing stuff from Europe, so he’s shutting down in a month or two, the place is going to be sold to a developer for flats. Which is shit, he has a grey parrot who lives in the shed and doesn’t talk but whistles many tunes. I’ll miss them a lot,


This kind of thing makes you wonder how European countries ever functioned before the corrupt EU gravy train was set in motion.


----------



## Raheem (Aug 7, 2022)

Tanya1982 said:


> Exhaustion?
> 
> Perhaps all the gloating, haha, 'move to the EU then', 'enemies of the people', 'citizens of nowhere' stuff had the effect of making those it was aimed at think 'well, OK, fuck you - this is all yours, so you get on with it'. People heard, and listened, reflected, and have acted accordingly.
> 
> Nobody has so much energy that even more can be expended in helping Brexiters to navigate the reality of their victory.



Could also be to do with not being within anymore.


----------



## RD2003 (Aug 7, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> That’s what I meant , sincerely. I love a bit of gardening and pottering about


I hate gardening, although I enjoy looking at or being in nice gardens. but I always get a sense of satisfaction after I've done it. Took advantage of the good weather yesterday to not only tidy up the garden, but also treat our wooden balcony and steps with wood preserve. I felt  I really deserved the bottle of Cava afterwards.


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 7, 2022)

RD2003 said:


> I hate gardening, although I enjoy looking at or being in nice gardens. but I always get a sense of satisfaction after I've done it. Took advantage of the good weather yesterday to not only tidy up the garden, but also treat our wooden balcony and steps with wood preserve. I felt  I really deserved the bottle of Cava afterwards.


Think its a marmite thing tbh . Used to hate it as a kid but strangely grew into it in my mid 30s.


----------



## RD2003 (Aug 7, 2022)

bimble said:


> Oh, on this thing we agree! The way the whole sad show played out was truly awful and it didn’t need to be like that, idiots on all sides. If remain hadn’t been so arrogant and unimaginative then we’d probably have remained.


These kind of people don't seem to know how unbearably smug they come across. Much of the post-Brexit Remainer angst was pure shock at the realisation that, for once, they don't get the world they want. Their reaction to the Ukraine war is explained by the same sense of disorientation.


----------



## RD2003 (Aug 7, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Think its a marmite thing tbh . Used to hate it as a kid but strangely grew into it in my mid 30s.


Yeah, since we moved I'm actually contemplating growing a few vegetables. I quite like getting to be an old cunt despite my knees going.


----------



## RD2003 (Aug 7, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Very polite the Portuguese CP.


They all were in the end. I remember some 1980s RCPers calling the CPGB  'Her Majesty's communist party.'


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 7, 2022)

RD2003 said:


> They all were in the end. I remember some 1980s RCPers calling the CPGB  'Her Majesty's communist party.'


My favorite was when they interviewed Cunhal on a program for ITV during the early part of the revolution. He was asked about 'political prisoners/ and replied 'no these men are bankers.'


----------



## teuchter (Aug 8, 2022)

RD2003 said:


> These kind of people don't seem to know how unbearably smug they come across. Much of the post-Brexit Remainer angst was pure shock at the realisation that, for once, they don't get the world they want. Their reaction to the Ukraine war is explained by the same sense of disorientation.


I can guess who the "these kind of people" you are talking about are, but I dunno if they generally tend to get what they want at, say, general elections. Not to worry - what you've written will have the effect you want nonetheless.


----------



## RD2003 (Aug 8, 2022)

teuchter said:


> I can guess who the "these kind of people" you are talking about are, but I dunno if they generally tend to get what they want at, say, general elections. Not to worry - what you've written will have the effect you want nonetheless.


At General Elections they don't, at least not since Blair. But it doesn't matter, as they tend to get what they want anyway. Except in the case of Brexit, where the realisation that those who don't think like them might actually have an influence suddenly smacked them in the chops, and the shock-horror of the (entirely predictable for at least ten years) Ukraine war. 

Not sure if anything I write on here ever has the desired effect tbh. Even if I knew what it was.


----------



## philosophical (Aug 8, 2022)

RD2003 said:


> I don't get this idea that Britain is a drastically different place after Brexit. It isn't.


What about the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, all unchanged after the vote to leave?
I would argue it is a different place after the referendum…’drastically’ is down to a matter of opinion, and in my opinion the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is drastically different after the vote to leave…even now before that vote is properly implemented.


----------



## teuchter (Aug 8, 2022)

RD2003 said:


> At General Elections they don't, at least not since Blair. But it doesn't matter, as they tend to get what they want anyway. Except in the case of Brexit, where the realisation that those who don't think like them might actually have an influence suddenly smacked them in the chops, and the shock-horror of the (entirely predictable for at least ten years) Ukraine war.



So it doesn't matter that they don't get what they want at general elections, but it does with Brexit. How come? Obviously you think that brexit has some kind of profound consequence for them - what is it?


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Aug 8, 2022)

teuchter said:


> So it doesn't matter that they don't get what they want at general elections, but it does with Brexit. How come? Obviously you think that brexit has some kind of profound consequence for them - what is it?



'Brexit' for planet remainers has become a signifier and code for all sorts of social, cultural and political issues.  

Remainer trauma is emblematic of a wider and deeper crisis of middle class liberalism.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Aug 8, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> 'Brexit' for planet remainers has become a signifier and code for all sorts of social, cultural and political issues.
> 
> Remainer trauma is emblematic of a wider and deeper crisis of middle class liberalism.


Brexit for (some) Brexiteers has always been a signifier and code for all sorts of social, cultural and political issues. Brexiteer trauma probably began, for some, with loss of Empire, or mass immigration. The EU became a convenient hook to hang all manner of unsavoury garments on. 

Middle class liberals. Hmmmn. Scotland and Northern  Ireland must be awash with such people.


----------



## philosophical (Aug 8, 2022)

Remainer trauma for some is realising there are those of the left who voted leave without a ready made solution to the land border in Ireland.
The vindictive lexiters.


----------



## Yossarian (Aug 8, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> My own view on this is that Brexit has become some sort of signifier for a wider trauma within middle class liberalism and reflects, among the petit bourgeois and the PMC, its deep level of disorientation and frustration. It's politics are in retreat across the globe, it's all at sea in a 'culture war' it can't fully understand, its economic position is eroding in the same way our class suffered in the 80's and its role as the narrating class becomes ever more contingent. While Brexit is triggering: because it speaks to a number of those issues, what we are really dealing with here is some sort of middle class psychological episode.





Smokeandsteam said:


> Part of the problem for Remain is the fact that, politically speaking, it’s an empty vessel, as this contribution from the labour spokesperson demonstrates. As this - presumable Blairite - demonstrates they are utterly disorientated by a result that damaged everything they thought about themselves and their position as the narrating class. They have been unable to move beyond the trauma and remain politically paralysed and therefore irrelevant as a result.





Smokeandsteam said:


> 'Brexit' for planet remainers has become a signifier and code for all sorts of social, cultural and political issues.
> 
> Remainer trauma is emblematic of a wider and deeper crisis of middle class liberalism.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Aug 8, 2022)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> Brexit for (some) Brexiteers has always been a signifier and code for all sorts of social, cultural and political issues. Brexiteer trauma probably began, for some, with loss of Empire, or mass immigration. The EU became a convenient hook to hang all manner of unsavoury garments on.
> 
> Middle class liberals. Hmmmn. Scotland and Northern  Ireland must be awash with such people.



I agree. But don't think anyone on here comes from that mileu. No doubt had leave lost then the internet would be full of their nostalgia and angst instead of the middle class remainer variant.

As for Scotland and the north of Ireland other factors and considerations were and are in play.


----------



## teuchter (Aug 8, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> 'Brexit' for planet remainers has become a signifier and code for all sorts of social, cultural and political issues.
> 
> Remainer trauma is emblematic of a wider and deeper crisis of middle class liberalism.



Was the victory of Boris Johnson at the general election a signifier and code for all sorts of social, cultural and political issues for these awful people? But was it also for you?


----------



## Artaxerxes (Aug 8, 2022)

No true leftist voted remain\leave and only bourgeoise miss the status quo/want to leave the EU.


Same old nuanced arguments


----------



## philosophical (Aug 8, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I agree. But don't think anyone on here comes from that mileu. No doubt had leave lost then the internet would be full of their nostalgia and angst instead of the middle class remainer variant.
> 
> As for Scotland and the north of Ireland other factors and considerations were and are in play.



Do you mean were in play in the minds of individual voters when they voted?
How could anybody know?


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Aug 8, 2022)

teuchter said:


> Was the victory of Boris Johnson at the general election a signifier and code for all sorts of social, cultural and political issues for these awful people? But was it also for you?



That doesn’t make any sense. Have a lie down


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Aug 8, 2022)

The other aspect of Remain annoyance and anger was how close the vote was. That closeness varied enormously around the regions, but it was still close. If Leave had had 75% and Remain 25% that would have been the end of the matter, for the vast majority. But if you live in one of those areas that was heavily Remain you would hardly know anyone who voted Leave and admitted to it. The news since, and the knowledge that the demographics indicate that Remain would have won if the vote was held now, just add to the ongoing annoyance.


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 8, 2022)

Artaxerxes said:


> No true leftist voted remain\leave and only bourgeoise miss the status quo/want to leave the EU.
> 
> 
> Same old nuanced arguments


what is a leftist?


----------



## Ax^ (Aug 8, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> 'Brexit' for planet remainers has become a signifier and code for all sorts of social, cultural and political issues.
> 
> Remainer trauma is emblematic of a wider and deeper crisis of middle class liberalism.



and the only benefit is a sense of a fuzzy warm feeling of winning for people who voted leave

other tangible benefits are  questionable at best


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> and a sense of a fuzzy warm feeling of winning someone for some members of the left
> 
> other tangible benefits are  questionable at best


by no means
the printers of blue passports are enjoying a great boom


----------



## A380 (Aug 8, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> by no means
> the printers of blue passports are enjoying a great boom


I for one am glad we have assisted the French/Dutch/Polish  security printing industry so much.


----------



## teuchter (Aug 8, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> That doesn’t make any sense. Have a lie down


Which bit of the question do you have a problem with?


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Aug 8, 2022)

teuchter said:


> Which bit of the question do you have a problem with?



All of it


----------



## Karl Masks (Aug 8, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> 'Brexit' for planet remainers has become a signifier and code for all sorts of social, cultural and political issues.
> 
> Remainer trauma is emblematic of a wider and deeper crisis of middle class liberalism.


Remainer trauma sounds like something the NHS could treat, if thousands of workers hadn't been drive out by the Brexit campaign you seem to think is good for us all.

Can you explain 'middle class liberalism'?

Do you think Eddie Dempsey was right when he said we should have a no deal Brexit?


----------



## Artaxerxes (Aug 8, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> what is a leftist?




An working class hero


----------



## A380 (Aug 8, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> Remainer trauma sounds like something the NHS could treat, if thousands of workers hadn't been drive out by the Brexit campaign you seem to think is good for us all.
> 
> Can you explain 'middle class liberalism'?
> 
> Do you think Eddie Dempsey was right when he said we should have a no deal Brexit?


Don't you get it? All those Romanian farm workers, Polish builders and Lithuanian waiters were latte drinking effete middle class liberals. Now the country is purged of them the way to true sunlit socialist uplands lies open.


----------



## Karl Masks (Aug 8, 2022)

A380 said:


> Don't you get it? All those Romanian farm workers, Polish builders and Lithuanian waiters were latte drinking effete middle class liberals. Now the country is purged of them the way to true sunlit socialist uplands lies open.


where, according to the Guardian, we can enjoy the freedom to glue home made teeth into our gums.


----------



## A380 (Aug 8, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> where, according to the Guardian, we can enjoy the freedom to glue home made teeth into our gums.


Indeed a resounding victory for the working classes. Proper dentistry is so middle class.


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 8, 2022)

Are Pret still going in the Uk?


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 8, 2022)

A380 said:


> Indeed a resounding victory for the working classes. Proper dentistry is so middle class.


I must say that getting dental treatment here ( none of it SNS)  is easier and mostly cheaper than in the UK. Have to wait for appointments though unless you want to pay more.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Are Pret still going in the Uk?



yeh but they're really dear now


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 8, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh but they're really dear now


no wonder there are all these strikes


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> no wonder there are all these strikes


if i could strike because of the price of pret being so high i'd have been on a picket line for years now


----------



## bimble (Aug 8, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> How’s he taking his parrot back ?


What? His parrot is British. It’s not leaving the country it’s just losing its job.


----------



## Tanya1982 (Aug 8, 2022)

RD2003 said:


> This kind of thing makes you wonder how European countries ever functioned before the corrupt EU gravy train was set in motion.


Pretty badly. Lots of wars, pestilence, ignorance, want, piracy, unchecked tribal vendettas, genocides, and very many aristocratic squabbles that turned countless innocent people from each generation into cannon fodder/plant food. Like Somalia but with rococo palaces and artfully arranged loot for the very few. The good old days, before Brussels ruined your life.


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 8, 2022)

bimble said:


> What? His parrot is British. It’s not leaving the country it’s just losing its job.


was it born and bred here?


----------



## bimble (Aug 8, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> was it born and bred here?


I am not sure tbh. Maybe born but not bred, depending on what on earth bred means in that bizarre turn of phrase so beloved of nationalist weirdos.


----------



## bimble (Aug 8, 2022)

RD2003 said:


> This kind of thing makes you wonder how European countries ever functioned before the corrupt EU gravy train was set in motion.


Things are more expensive, to import & export, without the common market. So there were fewer affordable foreign things from Europe, and that’s why this little man’s business is no longer viable, because he sold his plants cheap and isn’t in a location where he could charge a load more and still get business. I took you off ignore just to help you with this have a nice day.


----------



## RD2003 (Aug 8, 2022)

bimble said:


> Things are more expensive, to import & export, without the common market. So there were fewer affordable foreign things from Europe, and that’s why this little man’s business is no longer viable, because he sold his plants cheap and isn’t in a location where he could charge a load more and still get business. I took you off ignore just to help you with this have a nice day.


Won't somebody think of the little man?


----------



## RD2003 (Aug 8, 2022)

Tanya1982 said:


> Pretty badly. Lots of wars, pestilence, ignorance, want, piracy, unchecked tribal vendettas, genocides, and very many aristocratic squabbles that turned countless innocent people from each generation into cannon fodder/plant food. Like Somalia but with rococo palaces and artfully arranged loot for the very few. The good old days, before Brussels ruined your life.


And now we have a war raging in Europe once more. The second major conflict in a generation. Cannon fodder aplenty.

How did European countries fare at times they weren't resembling Somalia?


----------



## RD2003 (Aug 8, 2022)

teuchter said:


> So it doesn't matter that they don't get what they want at general elections, but it does with Brexit. How come? Obviously you think that brexit has some kind of profound consequence for them - what is it?


Because, by and large, they are the people all major political parties pander to. Having a Tory government is merely a problem of aesthetics.

I don't know what it is with Brexit, other than, as I said, it offends their self-image.


----------



## Tanya1982 (Aug 8, 2022)

A380 said:


> Indeed a resounding victory for the working classes. Proper dentistry is so middle class.


Real Brits use a piece of string tied to a door handle. Brandy and pliers, with a smack around the head for crying, are namby pamby comforts for children only.


----------



## Tanya1982 (Aug 8, 2022)

RD2003 said:


> And now we have a war raging in Europe once more. The second major conflict in a generation. Cannon fodder aplenty.
> 
> How did European countries fare at times they weren't resembling Somalia?


Generally best when they fully cooperated and were interconnected, free exchange of ideas, flow of people, and structures in place to support that - which is a tradition with a very long history.

The war is raging in the former USSR, which cannot be blamed on the EU, even by the most creative Brexiters out there. The beleaguered state in question dearly hopes for all you flushed away.


----------



## RD2003 (Aug 8, 2022)

Tanya1982 said:


> Generally best when they fully cooperated and were interconnected, free exchange of ideas, flow of people, and structures in place to support that - which is a tradition with a very long history.


Don't see why those commendable things necessitate the bloated bureaucratic monster that is the corrupt EU gravy train.


----------



## bimble (Aug 8, 2022)

RD2003 said:


> Won't somebody think of the little man?


I’m thinking of him because he’s coming round here later today with a medium sized apple tree that he sold me yesterday for ten pounds, which he has probably been taking care of for many years.
Businesses closing because they aren’t big or profitable or professional enough to deal with the new situation is fine though, fuck them right? Even though he employed nobody apart from his parrot to whom I am pretty sure he was a good boss.


----------



## JimW (Aug 8, 2022)

Tanya1982 said:


> Pretty badly. Lots of wars, pestilence, ignorance, want, piracy, unchecked tribal vendettas, genocides, and very many aristocratic squabbles that turned countless innocent people from each generation into cannon fodder/plant food. Like Somalia but with rococo palaces and artfully arranged loot for the very few. The good old days, before Brussels ruined your life.


The Walloon tribal vendettas were indeed notorious.


----------



## RD2003 (Aug 8, 2022)

bimble said:


> I’m thinking of him because he’s coming round here later today with a medium sized apple tree that he sold me yesterday for ten pounds, which he has probably been taking care of for many years.
> Businesses closing because they aren’t big or profitable or professional enough to deal with the new situation is fine though, fuck them right? Even though he employed nobody apart from his parrot to whom I am pretty sure he was a good boss.


This is the mirror image of the tales right-wing anti-EU types used to tell about small traders put out of business by EU regulations etc.


----------



## RD2003 (Aug 8, 2022)

A380 said:


> Indeed a resounding victory for the working classes. Proper dentistry is so middle class.


All the current problems at my local dentist's seem to be a legacy of the pandemic rather than anything else.


----------



## JimW (Aug 8, 2022)

Tanya1982 said:


> Generally best when they fully cooperated and were interconnected, free exchange of ideas, flow of people, and structures in place to support that - which is a tradition with a very long history.


And let's not forget the free flow of capital from the periphery to the northern core. Greece is cheap this year, dahling.


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 8, 2022)

JimW said:


> And let's not forget the free flow of capital from the periphery to the northern core. Greece is cheap this year, dahling.


Can't say things like that on here, you'll be accused of supporting Russia and being more prole than thou


----------



## A380 (Aug 8, 2022)

Tanya1982 said:


> Real Brits use a piece of string tied to a door handle. Brandy and pliers, with a smack around the head for crying, are namby pamby comforts for children only.


If you have door handles are you really properly working class?


----------



## Tanya1982 (Aug 8, 2022)

RD2003 said:


> All the current problems at my local dentist's seem to be a legacy of the pandemic rather than anything else.


Do they really discuss the ins and ours of their business with you? That seems a little extra.


----------



## Tanya1982 (Aug 8, 2022)

JimW said:


> And let's not forget the free flow of capital from the periphery to the northern core. Greece is cheap this year, dahling.


So I heard. I used to live in Athens. It was not cheap. Not by any stretch of the imagination was it a cheap city to live in. The post crisis notion that it was some naive little backwater full of plucky peasants about to be robbed of their life savings by Germany is untrue, and unfair to all parties.


----------



## RD2003 (Aug 8, 2022)

Tanya1982 said:


> Do they really discuss the ins and ours of their business with you? That seems a little extra.


No, it's what they tell me when I try to make an appointment. Can't get one until after the end of September unless an emergency.


----------



## Tanya1982 (Aug 8, 2022)

JimW said:


> The Walloon tribal vendettas were indeed notorious.


No idea. I'm re-reading Antonia Frasers atmospheric biog of Mary, Queen of Scots, which I do every few years because it's brilliant and ever relevant. So I wasn't even looking as far as Belgium. This island offers enough examples of blood feud/vendetta, and the battle between what became the British establishment and 'Europe' - for cultural, political, symbolic and financial control of these islands v a more diffuse pan European vision.

It was published in the 60's, so even the Brexiters would be hard pushed to suggest it was some remain heavy fairytale. It's interesting to think that the sadists who made sure the woman's name was trashed and her head severed, after being branded a femme fatale, danger to the nascent Godly state, etc, ended up being the same people that ended up in what became the USA, burning women in the 17th c, banning medical access in 2022.

When I first read it aged 10 or 11 I saw it as the complex but - even then - fully understandable story of a young woman (with what we'd today class as 'liberal' or pragmatic views on international relations, criminal justice, religious liberty, personal relationships, LGBT, etc)  trapped, and stripped of power in really vulgar and unnecessarily sexualized ways. That still comes through. In 2022 I still find newly relevant perspectives within it.


----------



## Tanya1982 (Aug 8, 2022)

RD2003 said:


> No, it's what they tell me when I try to make an appointment. Can't get one until after the end of September unless an emergency.


I'd be quite annoyed if my dental receptionist offered me a Brexit/remain run through of why they couldn't see me.

I normally see my dentist every four months or so. At the very week of lockdown one, I took a millimetre corner off a tooth after biting too hard on a fork during a takeaway curry on the Saturday night - they saw me first thing on the Monday morning, and built it so beautifully I was considering having all my teeth rounded off that way. Lockdown officially began that very week. I next saw them, without issue, in September 2020.

Admittedly, at some point in 2021 the receptionist did say they were only seeing emergencies. So I told them it was an emergency, which would include an emergency scale and polish, and was back in the attentive hands of my sexy Brazilian dentist who works to Samba beats, within the very same week.

Of all the things we've discussed, Brexit has never been mentioned. The only medical person who ever raised it with me was a Botox butcher in Mexico City, who (this was August 2016) asked me when I was in his chair 'what on earth is happening in your country?', and 'why can't your queen stop this chaos?' before admitting 'I'm sorry, but it feels a little bit good to watch the Brits making a mess like the world associates with Mexico' - the local news was on the television during, and it didn't stop. It was fully reported as a crisis of a country in a state of collapse.

When they ask if it's an emergency, just say 'yes' instead of getting into a political to and fro with the poor sod on the phone.


----------



## Tanya1982 (Aug 8, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Can't say things like that on here, you'll be accused of supporting Russia and being more prole than thou


By the ignorant perhaps, but not by me. I am not more prole than thou (even though I actually am). Athens was a pretty glamorous city - up there with London, Paris, and the major Italian cities. In 2005 it was reported to be the sixth richest capital in Europe. That feels about right.

At one point, my landlord was renting out my balcony to a girl who slept there on a sun lounger. Upstairs was a woman who had two actual lion cubs as pets - she rented them out to a Cartier party - I still have the photos of me holding them. I still think of that as extravagantly rich. The post crash notion that Athens was some kind of backwater full of financial fools might be comforting, but it's wrong. What it always was, weirdly, was honest - even if on the sneak, it was with a wink.

Emporio Armani branches were there on high streets like branches of Next. Yes, you could pay off your speeding tickets and parking fines. I had a fairly regular employer at first - nothing glam - but her regular bank turned out to be in the Channel Islands. A good friend of mine from LA had romantic dreams of history, and complained how like LA it was, but more lawless. There were street/Romany kids being run like something from Oliver Twist - maybe worse. Reality doesn't have a British censor.

Just as the slurs against Greeks as tax avoiding con artists was never accurate, neither is the idea that they were victims of heartless northern European functionaries. It just isn't true. It was a highly developed county, with a primate city just as complex as any other.

People talk so much bullshit about Greece, always from either end. Innocent victim or deserving culprit. It was neither and both - just unlucky to be in the spotlight when the music stopped.

It's absolutely true (to back up the right wing critiques) that Athens in particular was the kind of town where everyone who could was 'at it', far more so than London, and that a lot of cash that should've paid for debt repayments and social services was stuck on the never never.

It's also absolutely true (to back up left wing critiques) that there were underlying issues with how the state functioned and how those who relied on only it were very badly exposed when it had its knickers pulled down.

What isn't true, 'dahling', is that Greece unwittingly underwrote Germany and Benelux, and ended up bankrupt for doing so.


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 8, 2022)

Tanya1982 said:


> By the ignorant perhaps, but not by me. I am not more prole than thou (even though I actually am). Athens was a pretty glamorous city - up there with London, Paris, and the major Italian cities. In 2005 it was reported to be the sixth richest capital in Europe. That feels about right.
> 
> At one point, my landlord was renting out my balcony to a girl who slept there on a sun lounger. Upstairs was a woman who had two actual lion cubs as pets - she rented them out to a Cartier party - I still have the photos of me holding them. I still think of that as extravagantly rich. The post crash notion that Athens was some kind of backwater full of financial fools might be comforting, but it's wrong. What it always was, weirdly, was honest - even if on the sneak, it was with a wink.
> 
> ...


Have you ever lived next door to bimble ?


----------



## Tanya1982 (Aug 8, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Have you ever lived next door to bimble ?


Quite possibly. I leave it to him/her to confirm that they've lived next door to me.


----------



## JimW (Aug 8, 2022)

Tanya1982 said:


> It was published in the 60's, so even the Brexiters would be hard pushed to suggest it was some remain heavy fairytale.


The fairy-tale here is ascribing all social progress in Europe to membership of the EC. Soviet Bloc would probably be a better candidate for ending what vendetta based culture was still knocking around in the post-war period and that would be a ridiculous stretch too.


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 8, 2022)

Thought this was a parody video but apparently not


----------



## Ax^ (Aug 8, 2022)

hmm how did we end up in this situation having to pick between sunak or Truss

_strokes chin_


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Aug 8, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> hmm how did we end up in this situation having to pick between sunak or Truss
> 
> _strokes chin_



Are you a Tory party member? If not you don’t get a pick.


----------



## Raheem (Aug 8, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Are you a Tory party member? If not you don’t get a pick.


And if you are, you may one day be handed a spade.


----------



## Ax^ (Aug 8, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Are you a Tory party member? If not you don’t get a pick.



come to think about it,  you might secretly  be a deep undercover party tory member

just got a shifty look about you


----------



## bimble (Aug 9, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Thought this was a parody video but apparently not



bloody hell. i was sure it must be parody too, especially with the knuckle cracking, but its not.
Anyway though what sort of tagline is 'Keep Brexit Safe' and how does it go with the content of the idiotic video. Sinister as hell i think, the faceless man and the bombastic. But this is all it was ever going to be about, deregulation.


----------



## bimble (Aug 9, 2022)

Do wish I’d bought one of these.


----------



## Yossarian (Aug 9, 2022)

bimble said:


> bloody hell. i was sure it must be parody too, especially with the knuckle cracking, but its not.
> Anyway though what sort of tagline is 'Keep Brexit Safe' and how does it go with the content of the idiotic video. Sinister as hell i think, the faceless man and the bombastic. But this is all it was ever going to be about, deregulation.



That video has left me with some questions - 

1) How does Sunak intend to repeal post-Brexit EU laws?
2) Why doesn't the Brexit Delivery Department have a proper sign on its door instead of a folded sheet of paper?
3) Why does EU legislation come with such vague titles, must be a filing nightmare if it's all just labeled "EU Legislation" or "EU Red Tape."
4) Does he understand that shredding paper copies of the legislation isn't the same thing as repealing it? 
5) Wouldn't it be a good idea to keep that stuff on file anyway in case somebody needs to look something up?
6) Why is all the paper blank?
7) Is he sure "Brexit Delivery Unit" isn't Remainer slang for the human excretory system?


----------



## teuchter (Aug 9, 2022)

I initially read "keep brexit safe" as advice to keep myself safe from brexit, a bit like saying "stay covid safe".


----------



## bimble (Aug 9, 2022)

It must have come out of a brainstorming session with very well paid people, keep brexit safe from the treacherous saboteurs probably? Rather than keep brexit safe don’t let it hurt the country.


----------



## Tanya1982 (Aug 9, 2022)

JimW said:


> *The fairy-tale here is ascribing all social progress in Europe to membership of the EC. *Soviet Bloc would probably be a better candidate for ending what vendetta based culture was still knocking around in the post-war period and that would be a ridiculous stretch too.


It would be, but I didn't, so it isn't.


----------



## Tanya1982 (Aug 9, 2022)

Raheem said:


> And if you are, you may one day be handed a spade.


To do what? Batter what they see as the surplus population to death?


----------



## Raheem (Aug 9, 2022)

Tanya1982 said:


> To do what? Batter what they see as the surplus population to death?


You know very well they have people for that.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 9, 2022)

Tanya1982 said:


> To do what? Batter what they see as the surplus population to death?


Surplus people are not what the order needs


----------



## bimble (Aug 9, 2022)

Tanya1982 you’re a breath of fresh air what are you doing on this fetid decomposing thread please stay.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Aug 9, 2022)

Tanya1982 said:


> It would be, but I didn't, so it isn't.



It would also be odd if you take a cursory glance at the leaders of the respective for and against campaigns (eta: during the first referendum campaign in 1974):

In: the Tory party, the labour right, the CBI, ICI, Rothschild, General Electric, Vickers, Lever, Boots, Austin, Ford, Rolls Royce, Monsanto, Lancashire Steel, United Steel and the media.

Out: the labour left

The EU can only be understood as an economic project: a free trade and then a globalisation project, albeit with some military considerations too.

What the EU is - teleologically - and what some of its most resolute fans claim it is would make a superb PhD thesis


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Aug 9, 2022)

bimble said:


> what are you doing on this fetid decomposing thread



On which you are the most prolific poster. By a distance!!


----------



## Ax^ (Aug 9, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> It would also be odd if you take a cursory glance at the leaders of the respective for and against campaigns:
> 
> In: the Tory party, the labour right, the CBI, ICI, Rothschild, General Electric, Vickers, Lever, Boots, Austin, Ford, Rolls Royce, Monsanto, Lancashire Steel, United Steel and the media.
> 
> ...




the Tory party line is a bit disingenuous as it was parts of the Tory party the 1922 , ERG and a few well placed Aussie billionaires that made brexit happen


if it was just the left we still be in the Eu


----------



## bimble (Aug 9, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> On which you are the most prolific poster. By a distance!!


Bloody hell I am. Had no idea. I’m obviously not over the neoliberal middle class trauma yet . Which is a bit weird seeing as I’m a citizen of Slovakia.


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 9, 2022)

bimble said:


> Bloody hell I am. Had no idea. I’m obviously not over the neoliberal middle class trauma yet . Which is a bit weird seeing as I’m a citizen of Slovakia.


Also you are crowding out the likes of Ax^ and Tanya1982


----------



## bimble (Aug 9, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Also you are crowding out the likes of Ax^ and Tanya1982


Six more and I get to 1,000 petulant posts about brexit. Might take a week off at that point.


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 9, 2022)

bimble said:


> Six more and I get to 1,000 petulant posts about brexit. Might take a week off at that point.


how do you see who has posted the most on this thread ?


----------



## bimble (Aug 9, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> how do you see who has posted the most on this thread ?


The ellipsis with an arrow & ‘who replied’.
5 more.


----------



## Ax^ (Aug 9, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Also you are crowding out the likes of Ax^ and Tanya1982



amazing how much this thread is like arguing with marty1 at times

one side always trying to own the libs


----------



## sleaterkinney (Aug 9, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> It would also be odd if you take a cursory glance at the leaders of the respective for and against campaigns:
> 
> In: the Tory party, the labour right, the CBI, ICI, Rothschild, General Electric, Vickers, Lever, Boots, Austin, Ford, Rolls Royce, Monsanto, Lancashire Steel, United Steel and the media.
> 
> ...



Wait, the media, murdoch and the daily mail were In?. Out was the right wing of the Tory party + farage and a few far left types who saw it as the end of capitalism or something.


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 9, 2022)

bimble said:


> The ellipsis with an arrow & ‘who replied’.
> 5 more.


Third so deffo so your description of me being ‘enthusiastic ‘ is apt .


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 9, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> amazing how much this thread is like arguing with marty1 at times
> 
> one side always trying to own the libs


Watch your language


----------



## bimble (Aug 9, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Third so deffo so your description of me being ‘enthusiastic ‘ is apt .


Your delight is obviously a bit but not much smaller than my pissedoffness .


----------



## two sheds (Aug 9, 2022)

bimble said:


> Bloody hell I am. Had no idea. I’m obviously not over the neoliberal middle class trauma yet . Which is a bit weird seeing as I’m a citizen of Slovakia.


That's nothing - Wilf's stopped posting on the Vardy Rooney thread which means I'm leading up the _other_ key debate on the site.


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 9, 2022)

bimble said:


> Your delight is obviously a bit but not much smaller than my pissedoffness .


Delight may be over egging it tbh


----------



## brogdale (Aug 9, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Third so deffo so your description of me being ‘enthusiastic ‘ is apt .


Trailing in a sad, medal-less fourth.


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 9, 2022)

brogdale said:


> Trailing in a sad, medal-less fourth.


As befits the lonely burden of arguing against the govt plebiscite on the neo liberal suprastate and the U.K. national capitalist state Brogdale


----------



## Artaxerxes (Aug 9, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> It would also be odd if you take a cursory glance at the leaders of the respective for and against campaigns:
> 
> In: the Tory party, the labour right, the CBI, ICI, Rothschild, General Electric, Vickers, Lever, Boots, Austin, Ford, Rolls Royce, Monsanto, Lancashire Steel, United Steel and the media.
> 
> ...




Out: the Tory right, Nigel Farage and a variety of weird businessmen.



sleaterkinney said:


> Wait, the media, murdoch and the daily mail were In?. Out was the right wing of the Tory party + farage and a few far left types who saw it as the end of capitalism or something.




The media were in but you'd never notice for most of them, a lot swung behind remain in the last week or so after breathlessly parroting bollocks about project fear for the previous decade.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Aug 9, 2022)

Artaxerxes said:


> Out: the Tory right, Nigel Farage and a variety of weird businessmen.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



sleaterkinney and Artaxerxes : the point I was replying to was about the origins of the EU and the first referendum in 1975. You are both right though, fast forward to 2016 and not much had changed (bar the labour left and that the British corporations have become largely subsumed into global corporates).


----------



## bimble (Aug 9, 2022)

Artaxerxes said:


> The media were in but you'd never notice for most of them


Was daily mail ‘in’ at some point?  Did they just do a giant ferret after the vote don’t think so but can’t remember. They did years and years of bendy banana anti eu stuff and then lots of this?


----------



## Ax^ (Aug 9, 2022)

Artaxerxes said:


> Out: the Tory right, Nigel Farage and a variety of weird businessmen.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 which way did the sun go if you talking about the media 

it was like the mail and express out for our freedoms


----------



## bimble (Aug 9, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> which way did the sun go if you talking about the media
> 
> it was like the mail and express out for our freedoms


The sun was very out.


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 9, 2022)

bimble said:


> Was daily mail ‘in’ at some point?  Did they just do a giant ferret after the vote don’t think so but can’t remember. They did years and years of bendy banana anti eu stuff and then lots of this?
> View attachment 336760


Apparently the Mail prides itself as having the largest female readership of any paper in the U.K.


----------



## bimble (Aug 9, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Apparently the Mail prides itself as having the largest female readership of any paper in the U.K.


Yes. But if only women voted, we’d have remained.


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 9, 2022)

bimble said:


> Yes. But if only women voted, we’d have remained.


Same with the vote for Thatcher


----------



## Artaxerxes (Aug 9, 2022)

bimble said:


> Was daily mail ‘in’ at some point?  Did they just do a giant ferret after the vote don’t think so but can’t remember. They did years and years of bendy banana anti eu stuff and then lots of this?
> View attachment 336760



Leave I think, but it didn't make an explicit "fuck it and go" call till the last minute. They had a bunfight with the Sunday version because Dacre didn't like the editor.

Then it got worse when Leave won.

Fairly even split looking at it tbf, Times went for In, Mirror and Guardian as well. Usual lunatic rags for Remain. These Are The British Newspapers Backing Brexit. Its been a long time and a fuck lot has happened so my memory was less than perfect.


----------



## Yossarian (Aug 9, 2022)

Telegraph was definitely out - they were the ones who had that Brussels correspondent for years who used to just make shit up about bans on prawn cocktail crisps, etc. - whatever happened to that twat?


----------



## philosophical (Aug 10, 2022)

I am pissed off with myself for being drawn to post on this thread where a significant word in the thread title is yet to be defined or explained.
For me it would be more calming if the title was ‘A thank you to leave voters’.
Then I could ask them when is leave going to happen.


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 10, 2022)




----------



## editor (Aug 10, 2022)




----------



## Ax^ (Aug 10, 2022)

a brave new future for the working man

and blueish black passports


----------



## Artaxerxes (Aug 11, 2022)

Much of this was mentioned (and dismissed) in the project fear headlines.

By you, the Telegraph


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Aug 11, 2022)

The U.K. is to impose a similar system, Ireland will have to impose checks to comply with this as they are not prepared to join Schengen, rather happier to stay in the Common Travel Area, sucking up the benefits the U.K. grants them, which are clearly greater than those offered by the EU. Those who voted remain should be made to work at the border to ensure no queues, as this is the sole reason they voted, the EU hating racist paedophiles that they must be?


----------



## brogdale (Aug 11, 2022)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> The U.K. is to impose a similar system, Ireland will have to impose checks to comply with this as they are not prepared to join Schengen, rather happier to stay in the Common Travel Area, sucking up the benefits the U.K. grants them, which are clearly greater than those offered by the EU. Those who voted remain should be made to work at the border to ensure no queues, as this is the sole reason they voted, the EU hating racist paedophiles that they must be?


13 million working at the border? Think of the traffic chaos!


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Aug 11, 2022)

brogdale said:


> 13 million working at the border? Think of the traffic chaos!



Philosophical should have thought of that before he selfishly cast his vote.


----------



## Ax^ (Aug 11, 2022)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> The U.K. is to impose a similar system, Ireland will have to impose checks to comply with this as they are not prepared to join Schengen, rather happier to stay in the Common Travel Area, sucking up the benefits the U.K. grants them, which are clearly greater than those offered by the EU. Those who voted remain should be made to work at the border to ensure no queues, as this is the sole reason they voted, the EU hating racist paedophiles that they must be?



oh fuck off from a Irish perspective.
irelands location and the realities of having to put up a hard boarder within ireland are the reason not to join the Schengen area


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Aug 12, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> oh fuck off from a Irish perspective.
> irelands location and the realities of having to put up a hard boarder within ireland are the reason not to join the Schengen area




Nonsense, Ireland made a choice to stay in the Common Travel Area rather than Schengen long before the spectre of Brexit reared it's head. That choice was made as it was considered beneficial to the people of ROI to do so, it is still considered beneficial to continue along those lines. Ireland can leave the Common Travel Area any time it chooses.


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 12, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> oh fuck off from a Irish perspective.
> irelands location and the realities of having to put up a hard boarder within ireland are the reason not to join the Schengen area


language please


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 12, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> language please


fuck's been used so frequently on here that it's utterly commonplace. unless your animus is directed at the hard boarder. incidentally the first person to say fuck/fucking on here seems to have been Blagsta back in 2001 https://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/g8-protester-murdered.8/#post-1468 tho surely there were aulder examples before the great post cull


----------



## Ax^ (Aug 12, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> language please


it often been said that people who are in favour of brexit wanted to drag the whole world back to the 1950's

fun that you keep quote caps line from avengers


----------



## Ax^ (Aug 12, 2022)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Nonsense, Ireland made a choice to stay in the Common Travel Area rather than Schengen long before the spectre of Brexit reared it's head. That choice was made as it was considered beneficial to the people of ROI to do so, it is still considered beneficial to continue along those lines. Ireland can leave the Common Travel Area any time it chooses.



you are talking out of your arse btw 
I'll make it simple go look at a map of Europe and then look up the Amsterdam treaty


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 12, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> it often been said that people who are in favour of brexit wanted to drag the whole world back to the 1950's
> 
> fun that you keep quote caps line from avengers


Why particularly the 1950s?


----------



## philosophical (Aug 12, 2022)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Philosophical should have thought of that before he selfishly cast his vote.


Thought of what?
One easy bit of thinking was do I want to vote the same way as Farage, Johnson, Rees Mogg, Tice and others?
Lexiters got into bed with those bastards in a florid display of Stockholm Syndrome.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Aug 12, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Why particularly the 1950s?



Dreadful times. The beginning of two awful decades where the wages and living standards of working class people rose faster than at any time in recorded history, there was an unprecedented expansion of free healthcare and education and council house building. Inequality began to drop and would reach the lowest levels measured by the Gini co-efficient. It was also the era of legislation to open up education resulting in an explosion of working class cultural production in music, plays and film and arts. There would be legislation promoting the rights of women, anti racism and gay rights. Trade unions were embedded in every key part of the economy. 

The thing about some Remainers is that they dismiss or sneer at interpretive nostalgia and seemingly overlook that their own meta narrative is soaked in  a particular form of it (without the interpretive bit).


----------



## Ax^ (Aug 12, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Dreadful times. The beginning of two awful decades where the wages and living standards of working class people rose faster than at any time in recorded history, there was an unprecedented expansion of free healthcare and education and council house building. Inequality began to drop and would reach the lowest levels measured by the Gini co-efficient. It was also the era of legislation to open up education resulting in an explosion of working class cultural production in music, plays and film and arts. There would be legislation promoting the rights of women, anti racism and gay rights. Trade unions were embedded in every key part of the economy.
> 
> The thing about some Remainers is that they dismiss or sneer at interpretive nostalgia and seemingly overlook that their own meta narrative is soaked in  a particular form of it (without the interpretive bit).



oh shut up you cunt


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Aug 12, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> oh shut up you cunt



Wise words, that I have been tempted use myself many times on this thread, ya balloon


----------



## Ax^ (Aug 12, 2022)

after that diatribe of nonsense wind your neck in

saying that with the cost of living crisis which is exacerbating the consequences of brexit we might all start feeling we are living in the 1950's quicker than you would like


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Aug 12, 2022)

philosophical said:


> Thought of what?
> One easy bit of thinking was do I want to vote the same way as Farage, Johnson, Rees Mogg, Tice and others?
> Lexiters got into bed with those bastards in a florid display of Stockholm Syndrome.




Once you saw austerity-cunt Gideon and his pig-fucking mate you just knew you had to throw your lot in with them, yeah?


----------



## Karl Masks (Aug 12, 2022)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Once you saw austerity-cunt Gideon and his pig-fucking mate you just knew you had to throw your lot in with them, yeah?


Austerity cunt and pig fucker aren't advocating transphobic child-hatred at CPAC though, are they. Didn't weaponise xenophobia to the point half the NHS stayed abroad. Didn't endorse an orange fascist in the white house? 

Shit choice is shit, but still a choice.

Just a shit one


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 12, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> Austerity cunt and pig fucker aren't advocating transphobic child-hatred at CPAC though, are they. Didn't weaponise xenophobia to the point half the NHS stayed abroad. Didn't endorse an orange fascist in the white house?
> 
> Shit choice is shit, but still a choice.
> 
> Just a shit one


Most NHS staff who aren't from the UK are actually non EU


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 12, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> Austerity cunt and pig fucker aren't advocating transphobic child-hatred at CPAC though, are they. Didn't weaponise xenophobia to the point half the NHS stayed abroad. Didn't endorse an orange fascist in the white house?
> 
> Shit choice is shit, but still a choice.
> 
> Just a shit one


shit or vomit is not a choice


----------



## Karl Masks (Aug 12, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> shit or vomit is not a choice


'Or'


----------



## philosophical (Aug 12, 2022)

In a binary choice it was easy to focus on the word leave.


----------



## bimble (Aug 12, 2022)

philosophical said:


> In a binary choice it was easy to focus on the word leave.


Maybe it could all have gone different if the other side had gone with Stay instead, remain is a crap word. Leave definitely had all of the good slogans.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 12, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> 'Or'


something disgusting v something disgusting is not a choice. like work or starve. tory or labour. or lib dem.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 12, 2022)

bimble said:


> Leave definitely had all of the good slogans.


the devil has all the best tunes.


----------



## Karl Masks (Aug 12, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> something disgusting v something disgusting is not a choice. like work or starve. tory or labour. or lib dem.


How are brexit and remain the same?


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 12, 2022)

bimble said:


> Maybe it could all have gone different if the other side had gone with Stay instead, remain is a crap word. Leave definitely had all of the good slogans.


 We could have a thread on re running the referendum with better slogans


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 12, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> How are brexit and remain the same?


they broadly are or you wouldn't have seen people come down effectively divided in two with ~50% going for either option. of course, after the precedent of the welsh devolution referendum - and even more perfect 50% split with about half the electorate turning out and pro and con divided by a gnat's whisker - there was no way even a 50% split wouldn't have been seized upon as the will of the people


----------



## Yossarian (Aug 12, 2022)

bimble said:


> Maybe it could all have gone different if the other side had gone with Stay instead, remain is a crap word. Leave definitely had all of the good slogans.



I don't know,  a Stay campaign sounds a bit like it could have been followed up with Sit and Heel campaigns.


----------



## andysays (Aug 12, 2022)

Yossarian said:


> I don't know,  a Stay campaign sounds a bit like it could have been followed up with Sit and Heel campaigns.


They could have got Barbara Woodhouse to lead the campaign, if she wasn't already dead.


----------



## JimW (Aug 12, 2022)

andysays said:


> They could have got Barbara Woodhouse to lead the campaign, if she wasn't already dead.


You could say the same for Johnson, though admittedly only inside for now.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 12, 2022)

andysays said:


> They could have got Barbara Woodhouse to lead the campaign, if she wasn't already dead.


she would have been a far better pm than johnson even in that state


----------



## Ax^ (Aug 12, 2022)

did we ever get around to the benefits of brexit


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 12, 2022)

Did we ever get around to why it was the 1950s that anyone who voted to leave the EU wanted to go back to?


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 12, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Did we ever get around to why it was the 1950s that anyone who voted to leave the EU wanted to go back to?


At least a million of the votes were to go back before Indian and Pakistani independence


----------



## Ax^ (Aug 12, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Did we ever get around to why it was the 1950s that anyone who voted to leave the EU wanted to go back to?



we as mostly. a crack about you going language like  someone's fucking granny but make what you want of it

but smoke can wander in and do his ress mogg impression again if he feels like it 

ya cunt


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 12, 2022)

bimble said:


> Maybe it could all have gone different if the other side had gone with Stay instead ...



Stayniacs


----------



## Yossarian (Aug 12, 2022)

Doomstayers and go-nads.


----------



## brogdale (Aug 12, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Dreadful times. The beginning of two awful decades where the wages and living standards of working class people rose faster than at any time in recorded history, there was an unprecedented expansion of free healthcare and education and council house building. Inequality began to drop and would reach the lowest levels measured by the Gini co-efficient. It was also the era of legislation to open up education resulting in an explosion of working class cultural production in music, plays and film and arts. There would be legislation promoting the rights of women, anti racism and gay rights. Trade unions were embedded in every key part of the economy.
> 
> The thing about some Remainers is that they dismiss or sneer at interpretive nostalgia and seemingly overlook that their own meta narrative is soaked in  a particular form of it (without the interpretive bit).


That first paragraph is spot on and is an observation that has been made a number of times in Brexit related threads. Where we may disagree is over the contention that a significant element of the Leave 'offer' rested upon a nostalgia for 'happier times' that emphasised the correlation with our, then, non-membership of the supra state with the implied causal relationship between membership and socio-economic decline for working people. This cute device, of course, overlooked the neoliberal turn that affected the interests of all working people whether resident within the trading bloc or not.


----------



## brogdale (Aug 12, 2022)

perhaps should have added...ya cunt!


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Aug 12, 2022)

bimble said:


> Maybe it could all have gone different if the other side had gone with Stay instead, remain is a crap word. Leave definitely had all of the good slogans.



If they had Stay Another Day as their theme tune it would have been 52% remain, that's a known fact. But instead of Brian 'Potato' Harvey they went with Bob 'Cunt' Geldof.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Aug 12, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Dreadful times. The beginning of two awful decades where the wages and living standards of working class people rose faster than at any time in recorded history, there was an unprecedented expansion of free healthcare and education and council house building. Inequality began to drop and would reach the lowest levels measured by the Gini co-efficient. It was also the era of legislation to open up education resulting in an explosion of working class cultural production in music, plays and film and arts. There would be legislation promoting the rights of women, anti racism and gay rights. Trade unions were embedded in every key part of the economy.
> 
> The thing about some Remainers is that they dismiss or sneer at interpretive nostalgia and seemingly overlook that their own meta narrative is soaked in  a particular form of it (without the interpretive bit).


It's not something I've ever said, for precisely the reasons you give in the first para. 

But it's a stretch to blame the reversal of these trends on EU membership. If anything, I'd put the causal effect the other way around - through the 80s and 90s, the EU was shaped in some important ways in the Thatcherite image under the influence of the UK. 

Also, it says nothing about the effect this Tory-led Brexit, the Brexit that has actually happened, is having and is likely to have in the future. And let's not kid ourselves here. A tory-led Brexit was the only Brexit ever on the table. So far, it's turned out even worse than I anticipated in 2016, but the direction of travel is entirely unsurprising and it will take some effort just to get back to where we were whenever this period of tory rule comes to an end.


----------



## brogdale (Aug 12, 2022)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> If they had Stay Another Day as their theme tune it would have been 52% remain, that's a known fact. But instead of Brian 'Potato' Harvey they went with Bob 'Cunt' Geldof.


In Fav, (where he lives up on the hill above the pond), the cunt is known as _King Rat_


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 12, 2022)

brogdale said:


> That first paragraph is spot on and is an observation that has been made a number of times in Brexit related threads. Where we may disagree is over the contention that a significant element of the Leave 'offer' rested upon a nostalgia for 'happier times' that emphasised the correlation with our, then, non-membership of the supra state with the implied causal relationship between membership and socio-economic decline for working people. This cute device, of course, overlooked the neoliberal turn that affected the interests of all working people whether resident within the trading bloc or not.


----------



## Ax^ (Aug 12, 2022)

odd the 1950s were the start a 13 year period of a  Tory lead government.. sure it just a consequence


----------



## brogdale (Aug 12, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> odd the 1950s were a start a 13 year Tory lead government..


Didn't really matter whether it was the right or left parties of capital managing the, then, welfare state. What mattered is that capital still had the fear that drove the concessions to labour that characterised during _Les Trente Glorieuses. _


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Aug 12, 2022)

brogdale said:


> That first paragraph is spot on and is an observation that has been made a number of times in Brexit related threads. Where we may disagree is over the contention that a significant element of the Leave 'offer' rested upon a nostalgia for 'happier times' that emphasised the correlation with our, then, non-membership of the supra state with the implied causal relationship between membership and socio-economic decline for working people. This cute device, of course, overlooked the neoliberal turn that affected the interests of all working people whether resident within the trading bloc or not.


Yes, you erm cunt, I think that’s an important question. My view is that far more research and work needs to be done on it. I’ve told you before about the views of my dad and his pals.
But I accept that the experience - and conclusions (legitimately) drawn - by redundant steelworkers isn’t necessarily universal. As you say we probably won’t agree on the extent to which lived experience and the collective memory of previously industrial and organised working class communities motivated the vote without proper ethnographic research of which there is currently little.  

But, I also think it’s inarguable that the EU from the outset, and in a quite pronounced way by the time the UK joined, was explicitly a free trade economic project. Entry did, as we can see with the steelworkers, undermine sections of a distinct British national economy (a significantly nationalised economy). Entry also marked the point at which Britain’s history as a net exporter producer economy, first in extractive industries and then as manufacturers, was overwhelmed.


----------



## xenon (Aug 12, 2022)

Spymaster said:


> Stayniacs



Leavils, as in ships biscuits.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Aug 12, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> odd the 1950s were the start a 13 year period of a  Tory lead government.. sure it just a consequence



Every time you post on this you further reveal your ignorance. Firstly, Labour was in power at the start of the two decade period mentioned. Secondly, Labour was in power for the last half of the second decade. Third, during the period there was a consensus about the need for a national economy based on production and growth, there was consensus about self sufficiency and there was even - some - consensus on the need for the state to own, direct and control large sections of the most important parts of the economy. As such wage growth, improved standards of living, improvement in healthcare, education and housing were planned by the state through the period. To join the EU, and accept it’s free trade  rules, directly impacted on the approach of the last two decades.

ETA: I bet you had to Google to find out who was in government….ya cunt


----------



## brogdale (Aug 12, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Yes, you erm cunt, I think that’s an important question. My view is that far more research and work needs to be done on it. I’ve told you before about the views of my dad and his pals.
> But I accept that the experience - and conclusions (legitimately) drawn - by redundant steelworkers isn’t necessarily universal. As you say we probably won’t agree on the extent to which lived experience and the collective memory of previously industrial and organised working class communities motivated the vote without proper ethnographic research of which there is currently little.
> 
> But, I also think it’s inarguable that the EU from the outset, and in a quite pronounced way by the time the UK joined, was explicitly a free trade economic project. Entry did, as we can see with the steelworkers, undermine sections of a distinct British national economy (a significantly nationalised economy). Entry also marked the point at which Britain’s history as a net exporter producer economy, first in extractive industries and then as manufacturers, was overwhelmed.


I think you're right to say that it's an area ripe for much research, but as I've said before, I can recall many convos at the time in which predominantly older family/friends were articulating that "things" were better before we joined. Now, to what extent those comments reflected Leave campigning and/or their own views is, of course debatable and I'm very conscious, as a non-Facebook person, that I may have significant gaps in my knowledge here. That said, my gut reaction is that Leave were very happy to see correlation and causation conflated and probably helped that where they could.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Aug 12, 2022)

brogdale said:


> I think you're right to say that it's an area ripe for much research, but as I've said before, I can recall many convos at the time in which predominantly older family/friends were articulating that "things" were better before we joined. Now, to what extent those comments reflected Leave campigning and/or their own views is, of course debatable and I'm very conscious, as a non-Facebook person, that I may have significant gaps in my knowledge here. That said, my gut reaction is that Leave were very happy to see correlation and causation conflated and probably helped that where they could.



I think you need to think about it without the lens of the leave campaign. The view that things were better before we joined the EU was widespread long long before the referendum campaign. 

As you rightly say we can debate to what extent the EU was actually responsible (and we won’t agree on that) but there is absolutely no doubt that the popular link between the two existed before the referendum.


----------



## Ax^ (Aug 12, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Every time you post on this you further reveal your ignorance. Firstly, Labour was in power at the start of the two decade period mentioned. Secondly, Labour was in power for the last half of the second decade. Third, during the period there was a consensus about the need for a national economy based on production and growth, there was consensus about self sufficiency and there was even - some - consensus on the need for the state to own, direct and control large sections of the most important parts of the economy. As such wage growth, improved standards of living, improvement in healthcare, education and housing were planned by the state through the period. To join the EU, and accept it’s free trade  rules, directly impacted on the approach of the last two decades.
> 
> ETA: I bet you had to Google to find out who was in government….ya cunt




I only mentioned the 1950's , they were in power till 1951 general election 

and I only mentioned it whilst buzzing off 39 for his waffling on about swearing.

come on you really are Jeff ress mogg and I claim my 5 fiver, both of you waffle on about brexit opportunities with fuck all tangible to  show for it


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Aug 12, 2022)

littlebabyjesus said:


> But it's a stretch to blame the reversal of these trends on EU membership. If anything, I'd put the causal effect the other way around - through the 80s and 90s, the EU was shaped in some important ways in the Thatcherite image under the influence of the UK.



I’m not arguing that joining the EU alone ‘reversed these trends’ - the 1973 oil crisis, the loss of colonial markets and the generalised capitalist slump were also factors. But to deny that joining a free trade bloc, which saw import controls withdrawn, had no effect is not credible in my view. But, the debate here is about popular perception. My point is that the sense that joining the EU was ‘responsible’ for the collapse of working class communities was widespread. More widespread than other factors. And it was a view long held before the referendum or the campaign


----------



## brogdale (Aug 12, 2022)

brogdale said:


> I think you're right to say that it's an area ripe for much research, but as I've said before, I can recall many convos at the time in which predominantly older family/friends were articulating that "things" were better before we joined. Now, to what extent those comments reflected Leave campigning and/or their own views is, of course debatable and I'm very conscious, as a non-Facebook person, that I may have significant gaps in my knowledge here. That said, my gut reaction is that Leave were very happy to see correlation and causation conflated and probably helped that where they could.


Yeah, but it's not the prevalence of such views amongst certain demographics that we're arguing about, is it? Of course older folk were prone to reflect on 'better times' before 1973/5 way before Jimmy Goldsmith's party was a glint in the eye of the swivel-eyed, right-wing fraternity. What, I think, we disagree upon, is the extent to which that (justified) nostalgia was weaponised by the Leave campaign and embedded within their appeals to the affective domain, conflating correlation with causation.


----------



## brogdale (Aug 12, 2022)

Sorry...wrong quote there; that was in reply to you, ya cunt! (not myself)


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Aug 12, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> I only mentioned the 1950's , they were in power till 1951 general election


You do know what came after the 1950’s though right? And what came before it?


Ax^ said:


> and I only mentioned it whilst buzzing off 39 for his waffling on about swearing.


Do not understand the sentence


Ax^ said:


> come on you really are Jeff ress mogg and I claim my 5 fiver, both of you waffle on about brexit opportunities with fuck all tangible to  show for it



So what does that make you? Blair? Cameron? Paul Mason? Andrew Adonis? Ed Davey? The Head of the CBI? Maybe, Alistair Campbell: consumed by a - normally incoherent - rage and condemned to a lonely future refighting the remain campaign over and over and over again? A fight where this time the flaccid middle class liberal offer wins in his head?
Whoever it is I claim my 10 tenner.


----------



## Ax^ (Aug 12, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> You do know what came after the 1950’s though right? And what came before it?



did I mention the war or the 1940's


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Aug 12, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> did I mention the war or the 1940's



I was referring to the 1945 government…we were talking about periods in office remember ..


----------



## Ax^ (Aug 12, 2022)

you gone off into your own tangent on this one I'm afraid


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Aug 12, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I’m not arguing that joining the EU alone ‘reversed these trends’ - the 1973 oil crisis, the loss of colonial markets and the generalised capitalist slump were also factors. But to deny that joining a free trade bloc, which saw import controls withdrawn, had no effect is not credible in my view. But, the debate here is about popular perception. My point is that the sense that joining the EU was ‘responsible’ for the collapse of working class communities was widespread. More widespread than other factors. And it was a view long held before the referendum or the campaign



Plus there are UK-specific factors, no.1 among them Thatcher. You only have to look at the current difference in asset size between the UK and French states (French state approx three times larger iirc) to see the difference Thatcher made.

As for the sense that joining the EU was responsible and how widespread it was, whatever the truth in that, all it does is explain why certain people voted Leave. It doesn't explain how leaving the EU helps those people. I would argue that it doesn't, that it has given the tories the opportunity to rip those communities apart even more.

At the time of the campaign, I was with Yannis Varoufakis on this point. He acknowledged the anger and he acknowledged the faults within the EU, but he pleaded with people not to vote leave because of this anger - because, however much you might want it to be the answer, it isn't; it just makes everything even worse.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Aug 12, 2022)

i think it's probably correct to say that people rarely used the word 'fuck' on the internet in the 1950s...


----------



## ska invita (Aug 12, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Did we ever get around to why it was the 1950s that anyone who voted to leave the EU wanted to go back to?


Playing in bomb craters?


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 12, 2022)

ska invita said:


> Playing in bomb craters?


could have been 1940s for that  or  1980s N.Ireland


----------



## Ax^ (Aug 12, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> could have been 1940s for that  or  1980s N.Ireland


any but the swore a bit in 1980 north Ireland so you'd be a little offended


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 12, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> any but the swore a bit in 1980 north Ireland so you'd be a little offended


Have you got a problem with your keyboard or is there still a problem with your phone in your Aunt's back garden. It's like reading an  online  version of Norman Collier on occasions.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Aug 12, 2022)

bimble said:


> Maybe it could all have gone different if the other side had gone with Stay instead, remain is a crap word. Leave definitely had all of the good slogans.



Ready made campaign song with built in 50s nostalgia...why did no one think of it?



Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Aug 12, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> odd the 1950s were the start a 13 year period of a  Tory lead government.. sure it just a consequence


It's like Butskillism never happened.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## Karl Masks (Aug 12, 2022)

Well, at least we stuck it to Austerity Cunt and Pig Fucker.

A sentence that I rather enjoyed typing


----------



## bimble (Aug 12, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> Well, at least we stuck it to Austerity Cunt and Pig Fucker.
> 
> A sentence that I rather enjoyed typing


They are fine though. Cameron is on the board of a whole list of companies published his memoirs and he’s perfectly rich and happy. He just had a bad day, six years ago, the idea that it was worth it to piss him off is just, very stupid.


----------



## Karl Masks (Aug 12, 2022)

Of course it is. Brexit is the grift that keeps on taking


----------



## Artaxerxes (Aug 12, 2022)

bimble said:


> They are fine though. Cameron is on the board of a whole list of companies published his memoirs and he’s perfectly rich and happy. He just had a bad day, six years ago, the idea that it was worth it to piss him off is just, very stupid.




We made Boris and Nigel really happy though.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 12, 2022)

Artaxerxes said:


> We made Boris and Nigel really happy though.


The greatest indictment of all


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Aug 12, 2022)

bimble said:


> They are fine though. Cameron is on the board of a whole list of companies published his memoirs and he’s perfectly rich and happy. He just had a bad day, six years ago, the idea that it was worth it to piss him off is just, very stupid.




It wasn’t to piss him off, it was to stop him and his mate from their chosen course. In that regard it worked, they went. That call me Dave is coining it is no surprise, that seems to be the way of things now, at least Blair can’t enjoy his riches, by all accounts his security detail won’t let him enter a Starbucks (or whatever) lest people mob him in a negative manner. He’s an uber-pariah. Dave can’t go anywhere without folk oinking at him. They can make their dough but we can make living with it a miserable experience. As a remainer you should be hating on hug a hoodie too, he caused all this, after all…


----------



## bimble (Aug 12, 2022)




----------



## SysOut (Aug 12, 2022)

> We made Boris and Nigel really happy though.


But John was very angry.
Not to mention Tony.


----------



## bimble (Aug 12, 2022)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> It wasn’t to piss him off, it was to stop him and his mate from their chosen course. In that regard it worked, they went.


yes, it was great, we got Boris Johnson instead, to Get Brexit Done. Much better.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Aug 12, 2022)

bimble said:


> yes, it was great, we got Boris Johnson instead, to Get Brexit Done. Much better.



And due to him they are falling to bits.

Shame there’s nothing to oppose them, but there you go.

All fucking wankers.

Really can’t get my head around why folk care who’s in charge, none of them do jack for you. Fuck their shit up is all we have, boo-hoo if that means an extra five minutes at passport control, or Erasmus.

Btw are you still in the market for some jim-jams?


----------



## bimble (Aug 12, 2022)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> And due to him they are falling to bits.
> 
> Shame there’s nothing to oppose them, but there you go.
> 
> ...


Why are you flying 1st class again yes please.

I’m less optimistic than you, I think some politicians are worse than others, a lot worse, I don’t think ‘it’s all fucked anyway so lol whatever it can’t get worse’ I know it can. Look at the abortion ban in America that’s a direct result of the fuck it candidate getting in.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Aug 12, 2022)

bimble said:


> Why are you flying 1st class again yes please.



Yep, Brexit dividend is alive in Chez Bahn. Frau Bahn and the baby Bahn’s coming too, so should be able to sneak some small ones for you. They have a new design now, only says first on the inside label. Nice all the same though.




bimble said:


> I’m less optimistic than you, I think some politicians are worse than others, a lot worse, I don’t think ‘it’s all fucked anyway so lol whatever it can’t get worse’ I know it can. Look at the abortion ban in America that’s a direct result of the fuck it candidate getting in.



Whoever runs shit they will be a cunt, it’s pretty much guaranteed by the way they have to go to get there. So fuck’em. And that abortion shit in the US is bollocks too, Kansas has opposed it, others will follow in time. Crap as it is, the dinosaurs are dying and won’t be back for good.


----------



## bimble (Aug 12, 2022)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Yep, Brexit dividend is alive in Chez Bahn. Frau Bahn and the baby Bahn’s coming too, so should be able to sneak some small ones for you. They have a new design now, only says first on the inside label. Nice all the same though.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Excellent news, no visible label is even posher! 

Nah some politicians really are worse than others I assure you it’s a fact, one of them a while back killed all my grandparents siblings and so on, for instance, not here in Great Britain but yeah, they’re not all the same.


----------



## Smangus (Aug 12, 2022)

Only on Urban can a brexit benefits discussion lead to a bimble pyjama bonanza


----------



## two sheds (Aug 12, 2022)

Rise in smuggling brexit consequence shock.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Aug 12, 2022)

Smangus said:


> Only on Urban can a brexit benefits discussion lead to a bimble pyjama bonanza




With a smattering of holocaust.


----------



## Ax^ (Aug 12, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Have you got a problem with your keyboard or is there still a problem with your phone in your Aunt's back garden. It's like reading an  online  version of Norman Collier on occasions




look gobshite boy are you really that precious that little foul language offends you


or are you just being an arse

i'm going with the later

seeming as you spend your time on the boards as an ex pat defending the notion  UK leaving the  EU
think you would of returned to face the new bright future you are so in favour of


----------



## Ax^ (Aug 12, 2022)

.


----------



## two sheds (Aug 14, 2022)

Good example of how the tory brexit goes about keeping prices down while getting rid of annoying red tape 









						Revealed: Indonesian workers on UK farm ‘at risk of debt bondage’
					

As farms look further afield for labour, investigation finds Kent pickers saying they struggle to pay fees charged by unlicensed brokers




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## JimW (Aug 14, 2022)

two sheds said:


> Good example of how the tory brexit goes about keeping prices down while getting rid of annoying red tape
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The Morecambe Bay cockle pickers died while we were in the EU, scum gangers aren't a new thing.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Aug 15, 2022)

JimW said:


> The Morecambe Bay cockle pickers died while we were in the EU, scum gangers aren't a new thing.


Yes, but they were trafficked illegally.


----------



## JimW (Aug 15, 2022)

sleaterkinney said:


> Yes, but they were trafficked illegally.


The article notes that this would be illegal if happening as the Indonesian workers describe, as no doubt it is. Some understaffed and unmotivated agencies are looking into it.


----------



## SysOut (Aug 15, 2022)

JimW said:


> The article notes that this would be illegal if happening as the Indonesian workers describe, as no doubt it is. Some understaffed and unmotivated agencies are looking into it.


The cockle pickers were _illegal immigrants_. which is quite different. They officially didn't exist. Like those who died while being smuggled in containers.

That's not the same as illegal working conditions.


----------



## JimW (Aug 15, 2022)

SysOut said:


> The cockle pickers were _illegal immigrants_. which is quite different. They officially didn't exist. Like those who died while being smuggled in containers.
> 
> That's not the same as illegal working conditions.


Agree it's not the same (though the main issue does still relate to recruitment rather than on-farm conditions it seems), but the contention appears to be that Brexit has encouraged illegality in migrant labour, whereas given the incentives it's been there all along, just adapts to the current legal environment.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Aug 15, 2022)

JimW said:


> The article notes that this would be illegal if happening as the Indonesian workers describe, as no doubt it is. Some understaffed and unmotivated agencies are looking into it.


This sort of thing though, along with charter cities are specifically what the brexiteers had in mind.


----------



## Maggot (Aug 15, 2022)

Here's a Brexit benefit. Gove has been stuck an an airport for 30 hours due to staff shortages. 









						Gove stuck in 30 hour delay caused by Brexit-related travel chaos
					

Michael Gove's EasyJet flight from Athens was delayed by almost 30 hours as the prominent Brexiteer experienced travel chaos for himself.




					www.thelondoneconomic.com


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 15, 2022)

Maggot said:


> Here's a Brexit benefit. Gove has been stuck an an airport for 30 hours due to staff shortages.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sorry for his fellow travellers tho. Fucking 29h59m of do you know who I am?


----------



## TopCat (Aug 16, 2022)

As a Brit abroad post-Brexit, I wanted to wear a badge saying: ‘Don’t look at me – I didn’t vote for this!’ | Zoe Williams
					

It used to be fun holidaying with the French, but now the rest of Europe doesn’t seem to know what to make of us, writes Zoe Williams




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## TopCat (Aug 16, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> look gobshite boy are you really that precious that little foul language offends you
> 
> 
> or are you just being an arse
> ...


I think it was the grammar and the syntax (or lack of it) rather than foul language.


----------



## Ax^ (Aug 16, 2022)

TopCat said:


> I think it was the grammar and the syntax (or lack of it) rather than foul language.



oh really 



The39thStep said:


> language please


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Aug 16, 2022)

Maggot said:


> Here's a Brexit benefit. Gove has been stuck an an airport for 30 hours due to staff shortages.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Curious that a story which is 100% about tweets made by someone with an EU flag next to their name should blame Brexit for delays from Athens, in Greece, famously in the EU. Did they also focus on the omni-shambles that is Schiphol, CDG or FRA right now? No, blow me down with a feather.


----------



## Ax^ (Aug 16, 2022)

They should put Gove, and only Gove, onto a plane. It should take off, reach its peak height, and then all the crew should parachute down to safety, leaving him in a falling airliner with no hope of rescue. It should give him an adequate simulation of post-Brexit Britain.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 16, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> They should put Gove, and only Gove, onto a plane. It should take off, reach its peak height, and then all the crew should parachute down to safety, leaving him in a falling airliner with no hope of rescue. It should give him an adequate simulation of post-Brexit Britain.


Or they could fly the plane back _sans_ gove


----------



## brogdale (Aug 16, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> They should put Gove, and only Gove, onto a plane. It should take off, reach its peak height, and then all the crew should parachute down to safety, leaving him in a falling airliner with no hope of rescue. It should give him an adequate simulation of post-Brexit Britain.


Really think you've missed the obvious solution there; just give him a plane to pilot single-handedly and fly home...after all..._we've had enough of experts..._

Come on remainers, you can do better than this!


----------



## Ax^ (Aug 16, 2022)

we could do better but how to trick Boris to get on the same plane as Gove


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 16, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> we could do better but how to trick Boris to get on the same plane as Gove


Have you never seen how the a team get ba baracus onto planes?


----------



## SysOut (Aug 16, 2022)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Curious that a story which is 100% about tweets made by someone with an EU flag next to their name should blame Brexit for delays from Athens, in Greece, famously in the EU. Did they also focus on the omni-shambles that is Schiphol, CDG or FRA right now? No, blow me down with a feather.



Report didn't say the airports were to blame, but the lack of staff at Easyjet.

Never had these problems with state owned airlines. Then you could just get yourself transferred to another flight with another carrier - they cooperated with each other, just like the railways did.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Aug 16, 2022)

SysOut said:


> Report didn't say the airports were to blame, but the lack of staff at Easyjet.
> 
> Never had these problems with state owned airlines. Then you could just get yourself transferred to another flight with another carrier - they cooperated with each other, just like the railways did.



The issue with the lack of staff has not absolutely nothing to do with Brexit. The airports and airlines used Covid as an opportunity to lay off thousands of staff, particularly low paid baggage handlers/check in staff etc, despite the furlough scheme:









						‘Final call' for aviation support: 5,164 aviation jobs lost every month as industry ‘forgotten’ by government
					

…




					www.unitetheunion.org
				




They also attempted mass fire and re-hire attacks on workers: Heathrow Airport braced for fresh strikes in ‘bitter’ fire and rehire dispute

Now things have opened up again they have found  it hard to recruit workers on the shitty contracts they offer hence the staffing shortages.

So the Gove story is yet another example of Remainers working hand in hand with corporations and capital to muddy the factual waters. You thought they might have learnt after P&O, but no...


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 16, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> The issue with the lack of staff has not absolutely nothing to do with Brexit. The airports and airlines used Covid as an opportunity to lay off thousands of staff, particularly low paid baggage handlers/check in staff etc, despite the furlough scheme:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


still it was an appealing story, to think gove was hoist by his own petard


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 16, 2022)

Where to start


Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Curious that a story which is 100% about tweets made by someone with an EU flag next to their name should blame Brexit for delays from Athens, in Greece, famously in the EU. Did they also focus on the omni-shambles that is Schiphol, CDG or FRA right now? No, blow me down with a feather.


The trouble with such accounts is that whilst scouring the news for anything that affects the UK that could possibly or impossibly be blamed on Brexit is that they ignore similar issues in their beloved EU.  I had a friend come over here three weeks ago via Lisbon on TAP , the flight from Manchester was delayed because of a shortage of baggage handlers, the connecting flight from Lisbon to here was canceled and she had to book a hotel to fly the next day and that flight was delayed due to staff shortages at Lisbon airport. Both in the UK and in the EU airports and airlines laid off staff and tried to take advantage of covid by rehiring on less wages .


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Aug 16, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> still it was an appealing story, to think gove was hoist by his own petard



The Tories sat back and allowed the airports and airlines to lay off staff and use fire and re-hire during the pandemic: despite Unite urging them to step in to prevent the exact problems we have now. So, the oily prick getting delayed as a result _is _amusing, but nothing to do with Brexit.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 16, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> The Tories sat back and allowed the airports and airlines to lay off staff and use fire and re-hire during the pandemic: despite Unite urging them to step in to prevent the exact problems we have now. So, the oily prick getting delayed as a result is amusing, but nothing to do with Brexit.


no wonder there's been fuck all investment in the future in this country, the tories (and labour, for that matter) are all short-termist wankers.


----------



## Ax^ (Aug 16, 2022)

so 388 pages and all the get from brexiters is nothing is brexit fault and we cannot name a benefit of leaving 


so can we come to the conclusion that the whole thing was a fucking pointless exercise that just cost a lot of money and has achieved absolutely nothing


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 16, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> so 388 pages and all the get from brexiters is nothing is brexit fault and we cannot name a benefit of leaving
> 
> 
> so can we come to the conclusion that the whole thing was a fucking pointless exercise that just cost a lot of money and has achieved absolutely nothing


i've named a benefit - that we've had more than six years of chat about it.


----------



## Ax^ (Aug 16, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> i've named a benefit - that we've had more than six years of chat about it.



was it the warm fuzzy feeling it gave you 
the nation have a collective wank would of been cheaper


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 16, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> was it the warm fuzzy feeling it gave you


i don't associate brexit with a warm fuzzy feeling but with having occupied at least as much time for me since 2016 as i've spent working, or rather working at work


----------



## SysOut (Aug 16, 2022)

Off course the false dichotomy facing Brexiteers, is that the _rules_ come from the USA... the elephant in the room. Was the reason why BP had to be pre-privatised, for example.

This all goes back to the opening of China and Japan, the Open Door policy forced upon them by the imperial powers, who then formed an imperial cartel in Shanghai.
A sign of things to come, with the USA leading from behind.

BTW - the term "Lexit" is false. Improving the conditions of workers _within_ Capitalism is necessary and understandable - it just business, and good business with strong unions.

But the term "Left" refers to radical opposition to the present system, and started with the likes of Robespierre.

Apart from Sinn Fein, no MPs are radical, since they have all taken the oath of loyalty to the boss - the monarch.

There's been no serious viable Leftism in the UK since WW2. just the normal state approved, harmless ersatz movements of the 4/5/6th internationals and the anarchists.

Please correct me.

If the UK were to become socialist - would it be viable?

Europe has still got some interesting left movements, and, of course, a socialist EU would be viable.

Interest in a viable socialist movement in the UK was already waning before WW2. It was no longer being watched with hope from abroad and MI5 reckoned that by 1935, the CPGB represented no security risk - through incompetence and lack of support. It's leader's interview with Stalin after Churchill's election also showed that.
The USA and West Germany had to ban the then CP's. The UK didn't have to bother.

I'm just stating my opinion and I know that nearly no one will agree with it - just wanted you to know where I stand and that I consider the Lexiteers charlatans or foot soldiers led by charlatans.


----------



## brogdale (Aug 16, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Where to start
> 
> The trouble with such accounts is that whilst scouring the news for anything that affects the UK that could possibly or impossibly be blamed on Brexit is that they ignore similar issues in their beloved EU.  I had a friend come over here three weeks ago via Lisbon on TAP , the flight from Manchester was delayed because of a shortage of baggage handlers, the connecting flight from Lisbon to here was canceled and she had to book a hotel to fly the next day and that flight was delayed due to staff shortages at Lisbon airport. Both in the UK and in the EU airports and airlines laid off staff and tried to take advantage of covid by rehiring on less wages .


I'm almost nostalgic for the days when the swivel-eyed fraternity and their client press could blame everything on the supra-state.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Aug 16, 2022)

brogdale said:


> I'm almost nostalgic for the days when the swivel-eyed fraternity and their client press could blame everything on the supra-state.




They still do? 

We haven’t brexited hard enough that’s why X is a problem.


----------



## brogdale (Aug 16, 2022)

Artaxerxes said:


> They still do?
> 
> We haven’t brexited hard enough that’s why X is a problem.


Oh, right...it's just I got the impression from the leavists on here that this was exclusively a remainarian trope.

Both sides at it, eh?
All very divisive this malarkey, innit?


----------



## Artaxerxes (Aug 16, 2022)

brogdale said:


> Oh, right...it's just I got the impression from the leavists on here that this was exclusively a remainarian trope.
> 
> Both sides at it, eh?
> All very divisive this malarkey, innit?



Oh it’s never going to end.


----------



## brogdale (Aug 16, 2022)

Artaxerxes said:


> Oh it’s never going to end.


Not only that, but I've always enjoyed the fact that for the swivel-eyed loons the war started at least 11 years before the first battle of the UK state's accession; and the same lineage of nationalist ideologues are the ones telling the remainiacs to shut-up and move on.


----------



## 8ball (Aug 16, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> oh really



Maybe "language, please" didn't mean "no bad language, please".

Maybe it just meant "language, please".


----------



## SysOut (Aug 16, 2022)

Brexit threw the baby out with the bath water.


----------



## Ax^ (Aug 16, 2022)

8ball said:


> Maybe "language, please" didn't mean "no bad language, please".
> 
> Maybe it just meant "language, please".



it this context it was for the swearing

and I can also like to point out that someone bring up the comman travel area between the UK and Ireland something that predates the establishment of the Republic of Ireland in the context of brexit was one of the dumbest things I've read on this thread


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Aug 16, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> so 388 pages and all the get from brexiters is nothing is brexit fault and we cannot name a benefit of leaving
> 
> 
> so can we come to the conclusion that the whole thing was a fucking pointless exercise that just cost a lot of money and has achieved absolutely nothing



The benefits of Brexit have been spelt out, it's just that planet remain refuses to acknowledge them. To do so would render the endless sulk even more ridiculous maybe?

Put in its simplest form the benefits can be summarized as: greater democracy and democratic control over the national economy, the removal of undemocratic constraints on state aid, planning, investment and management of the economy, more progressive immigration rules and an escape from a doomed EU neo-liberal project which will inevitably lead to further political and economic union and which will inevitably lead to further withering away of democratic accountability and control. As night follows day right wing populism will continue to grow across Europe in response.

Some of us can see that - in the midst of a cost of living crisis and recession - that the debate about how we should respond to it will deepen and sharpen. Questions about public ownership, nationalisation, planning, democratic control are everywhere. The trade unions have scored spectacular victories and disputes are happening now across the economy. A general strike is back on the agenda. The range of levers that government can pull – procurement, import and export control, public ownership, regulation, investment in infrastructure, subsidies for new industries, trade policy – are easier, simpler and made more possible without the dead hand of the Troika (the ECB, the EU and the IMF).

As I said in post #10797:

_What would be a disaster for the left, compounding other disasters, would be to now swim along with liberalism in assuming that the answer and the necessary debate about these systemic problems is best done through the prism of the EU. What is needed instead is a vision for what a b*etter economy: based on economic justice, collective bargaining and a generational shift in money and wealth away from the 1% and back towards the rest of us: and to consider how that might be achieved post Brexit. Neither the EU or the existing order in the UK offers anything like this.*

As we are on the Brexit thread I will say again that its real tragedy was the defeat of a disorientated Labour leadership and a manifesto that at least pointed in that direction, and would in a post Brexit economy have taken a small but seismically important step away from the path we've been on since 1973. As for those who say an alternative vision is too ambitious and can't be done I'd point out that the left used to possess such ambition and ideas and went out and argued for them and stood by them:. In fact, in 1973 the Labour Party's Alterative Economic Strategy set out an economic plan - also ground in an anguished debate about the EU - based on a political understanding of economic policy as class struggle and aimed to impose greater working class political control on each of the forms of capital. A similar approach is needed in 2022 to unpick the damage of the last 50 years. _

It is only possible to deny these possibilities now exist if you assume that Britain will have right wing governments in perpetuity. That Truss and Starmer are undefeatable. I don't accept that for one second. It's bizarre that people on here get away with it, given that we came within a few thousand votes of a Government in 2017 that would have been genuinely social democratic. Their authority diminishes with each new crisis and their utter lack of a vision or credible response, the desire for change as the perma-crisis lengthens and deepens.   

The other, equally ludicrous charge, is to pretend that having left the EU in 2020 with a dysfunctional tory government (elected in no small measure to due to Labour Remainers) and the worst pandemic in living memory that a) everything that has gone wrong is due to Brexit and that b) there are no benefits and the proof is the last 2 years. Both arguments deliberately evade the facts of a global capitalist economic crisis and empty out the need for struggle and organization on our side: pre-requisites' for change in our favour at every point in history.

It used to be the left who welcomed change and the right that wanted things to remain the same. Now now. The inability to envisage what a progressive government or even better us could do - and the concomitant - meek and craven argument that the arrangements that existed up until 2016 were the 'best we can hope for' is indicative of a colossal and profound political disorientation.


----------



## ska invita (Aug 16, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> The benefits of Brexit have been spelt out, it's just that planet remain refuses to acknowledge them. To do so would render the endless sulk even more ridiculous maybe?
> 
> Put in its simplest form the benefits can be summarized as: greater democracy and democratic control over the national economy, the removal of undemocratic constraints on state aid, planning, investment and management of the economy, more progressive immigration rules and an escape from a doomed EU neo-liberal project which will inevitably lead to further political and economic union and which will inevitably lead to further withering away of democratic accountability and control. As night follows day right wing populism will continue to grow across Europe in response.
> 
> ...


broadly agree with that (though there are clear threats of deregulation over time to consider), but disagree with "more progressive immigration rules " - this has been the biggest sacrifice IMO, not just loss of the freedom of free movement, not just the troubled fate of EU citizens living here, but the fact immigration to the UK is now for the wealthier, and people coming to the UK from the EU as workers are now second class citizens in a whole host of ways, particular those with the least wealth and power.


----------



## Ax^ (Aug 16, 2022)

more progressive immigration policy is a load of shite to be fare and brexit currently re-enforced the London centric view point can see less investment going to other parts of the UK in the near future 

also brexit strengthen populism with the United Kingdom it why we had years of Boris and the incoming truss


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Aug 16, 2022)

ska invita said:


> and people coming to the UK from the EU as workers are now second class citizens in a whole host of ways, particular those with the least wealth and power.



Was that not always thus?


----------



## ska invita (Aug 16, 2022)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Was that not always thus?


very much no - the situation has changed quite drastically
 i havent got the energy to go through how peoples status has changed and rights decreased once here and how harsh the border is now as theres only so much repeating on these threads i can muster


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Aug 16, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> more progressive immigration policy is a load of shite to be fare and brexit currently re-enforced the London centric view point can see less investment going to other parts of the UK in the near future
> 
> also brexit strengthen populism with the United Kingdom it why we had years of Boris and the incoming truss



On immigration you are wrong. The EU operates and requires a racist EU only migration policy and is seeking to seal its borders to shut to the rest of the world out, in particular the impoverished global south. Outside of the EU a more progressive approach is possible.

Brexit actually led to a collapse in the insurgent populist support - it went to the Tories as the election posed a choice between them and remainers (Labour, Liberals, SNP, Greens etc). As I have a million times before a Corbyn/McDonnell led Labour Party committed to delivering the popular vote and with a plan to re-shape the economy of the back of it would have presented an all together different opposition to Johnson. As it was the remainers in Labour emptied the hope and optimism out from the Corbyn surge.


----------



## Ax^ (Aug 16, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> On immigration you are wrong. The EU operates and requires a racist EU only migration policy and is seeking to seal its borders to shut to the rest of the world out, in particular the impoverished global south. Outside of the EU a more progressive approach is possible.



you are aware post brexit the UK has been trying to adopt the Australian model for immigration

including shipping migrates off to other countries to be settled and processed


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Aug 16, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> you are aware post brexit the UK has been trying to adopt the Australian model for immigration
> 
> including shipping migrates off to other countries to be settled and processed



The Government is perfectly entitled to attempt to. Just like a future one will be free to adopt an entirely different approach. That's because the EU is unable to set the policy now or in the future.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Aug 16, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> you are aware post brexit the UK has been trying to adopt the Australian model for immigration
> 
> including shipping migrates off to other countries to be settled and processed



I'll provide a brief summary of the way the next few posts will go:

 "yeah but the EU is doing X so really its them who are evil. Britain has a chance to be democratic lefty wonderland now"
"Leave was racist"
"UR BOURGOUSIE"
"My Band can't go abroad"
"Remainers are entitled fucks"


etc. etc.


----------



## SysOut (Aug 16, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> brexit strengthen populism



Yes. And the populism previously mentioned, which is spreading around in the EU, is anti-EU, though they dont want to throw out the baby with the water.

The Brexit workers movement also have to see how they are going to leave NATO.

Without radicalism, these are just dreams.

If there is a crisis in capitalism, then of course, the strongest and best organised will prevail; the extreme conservatives. After all, that is what this is really all about - a conflict between the conservatives and liberals in the elite.

Having got rid of many guarantees for workers and the public generally, the rest will be got rid off and the UK will end up like Russia, well on the way to Victorianism, banning Gays , Abortion etc. Standing up for "Traditional/Family/European" values - but never going into details because that would frighten everybody.

The strikes mentioned are economic strikes, and with Brexit, it is far easier to ban strikes and unions than in the EU.

The attempt to ban important strikes in the EU was made in the Draft for an EU Constitution, which was defeated in the referendums in France and the Netherlands.

Please note that the UK "Left", in the form of the CWI Socialist Party, though it opposed the Draft Constitution in its glossy paper, categorically refused to campagin against the Draft Constitution, claiming that the EU was a capitalist organisation and it didn't concern them... as if the UK state, a monarchical and capitalist organisation, wasn't the same.

As I mentioned - charlatans.

Look at George Galloway - a populist alt-right - with his "Marxist-Leninist" party...
Friend of the gamekeepers and against Scottish independence.


----------



## brogdale (Aug 16, 2022)

Artaxerxes said:


> I'll provide a brief summary of the way the next few posts will go:
> 
> "yeah but the EU is doing X so really its them who are evil. Britain has a chance to be democratic lefty wonderland now"
> "Leave was racist"
> ...


I think you may have over-looked my regular and repetitive 'ignostic' rants calling for plagues on both neoliberal 'houses'


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Aug 16, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Brexit actually led to a collapse in the insurgent populist support



Prime minister from 2019 to 2022 was, um?

Likely prime minister from 2022–? is, um? 

Labour leader from 2020–? is, um?

If Brexit has reshaped the political landscape, it's done so in a way that has turned the main right party into an avowedly populist r/w party and dragged the main left party far to the right. 

I agree with you btw regarding the way that the Corbyn/McDonnell platform was scuppered by remain labour types. It was a massive missed opportunity. But that's gone up in smoke now.


----------



## Karl Masks (Aug 16, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> On immigration you are wrong. The EU operates and requires a racist EU only migration policy and is seeking to seal its borders to shut to the rest of the world out, in particular the impoverished global south. Outside of the EU a more progressive approach is possible.


can you cite a credible source for this please


----------



## philosophical (Aug 16, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> The benefits of Brexit have been spelt out, it's just that planet remain refuses to acknowledge them. To do so would render the endless sulk even more ridiculous maybe?
> 
> Put in its simplest form the benefits can be summarized as: greater democracy and democratic control over the national economy, the removal of undemocratic constraints on state aid, planning, investment and management of the economy, more progressive immigration rules and an escape from a doomed EU neo-liberal project which will inevitably lead to further political and economic union and which will inevitably lead to further withering away of democratic accountability and control. As night follows day right wing populism will continue to grow across Europe in response.
> 
> ...



I notice you use the term ‘Brexit’ and later reference ‘Britain’.
My take is that the vote was for the whole of the United Kingdom.
A United Kingdom that has a land border with the EU.
So in terms of the benefits you allude to, what is the benefit for peace and harmony related to that border?
I imagine your answer might contain some kind of riff regarding direction of travel…which is something yet to happen and is therefore not a benefit.


----------



## brogdale (Aug 16, 2022)

Yeah, and Artaxerxes missed that, as well.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Aug 16, 2022)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I agree with you btw regarding the way that the Corbyn/McDonnell platform was scuppered by remain labour types. It was a massive missed opportunity. But that's gone up in smoke now.



It has. But, Starmer and his pals won't be here long. *None* of the conditions that gave rise to 'Corbynism' have gone away. In fact, they have become sharper and more acute. The morbid condition of the late capitalist economy and its symptoms: wage decline, collapsing standards of living, food and energy poverty, negative or anemic growth, environmental blowback, pandemic etc are all here for good and will get worse. Of course the right see the possibilities for their side opening up. It's about time some of those who profess to be on ours do as well.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Aug 16, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> can you cite a credible source for this please



Certainly:



			https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/anti.12670
		




			https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/78881269.pdf
		


The rise of the racists in the EU parliament:





__





						In the Wake of Xenophobia: The New Racism in Europe | United Nations
					

Europe was torn apart by fascism in the 1930s, and when the Second World War ended in 1945, remnants of extreme right parties re-emerged on the margins of politics. By the 1980s, when the forgetting had started, some began to pick up protest votes as immigrants became an issue, driven by tabloid...




					www.un.org
				




Evidence of the EU directly facilitating human rights abuses:  









						The EU's racist migration policies are complicit in a system of slavery
					

‘Stop the boats’ creates and supports the very same trafficking networks the EU condemns



					study.soas.ac.uk
				






Any comments?


----------



## sleaterkinney (Aug 16, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> It has. But, Starmer and his pals won't be here long. *None* of the conditions that gave rise to 'Corbynism' have gone away.


I thought the trot entryists had been seen off?.


----------



## Karl Masks (Aug 16, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> It has. But, Starmer and his pals won't be here long. *None* of the conditions that gave rise to 'Corbynism' have gone away. In fact, they have become sharper and more acute. The morbid condition of the late capitalist economy and its symptoms: wage decline, collapsing standards of living, food and energy poverty, negative or anemic growth, environmental blowback, pandemic etc are all here for good and will get worse. Of course the right see the possibilities for their side opening up. It's about time some of those who profess to be on ours do as well.


but the labour right has shut out any left wing alternative to starmer so if he does go he'll be replaced by aonother right winger


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Aug 16, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> but the labour right has shut out any left wing alternative to starmer so if he does go he'll be replaced by aonother right winger



Didn't Tony Blair do that as well?


----------



## Karl Masks (Aug 16, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Certainly:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


what part, if any, did the british government play in the creation of those policies?

How does our isolation from the eu change those policies?

Are our current policies better?


----------



## Karl Masks (Aug 16, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Didn't Tony Blair do that as well?


do what?


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Aug 16, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> what part, if any, did the british government play in the creation of those policies?
> 
> How does our isolation from the eu change those policies?
> 
> Are our current policies better?



Karl, let's deal with one thing at a time. Do you have any comments on the credible research you asked for and which I supplied? Or just more questions?


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Aug 16, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> do what?



'Shut out left wing alternatives'


----------



## Chz (Aug 16, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> 'Shut out left wing alternatives'


I think some people forget how wildly popular he was with the general populace at the time. Handily winning elections does tend to "shut out" anything different to what's proven to work. Whether it's consciously or not. The left side of the party did not have a hope in hell of anything until after Brown lost. And it's not because oh they hate the lefties and blahblahblah, it's because they were _*winning *_up 'til then.

Edit: If Corbyn had beaten May, the right wing of the party wouldn't have stood a look-in for years either.


----------



## Ax^ (Aug 16, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> The Government is perfectly entitled to attempt to. Just like a future one will be free to adopt an entirely different approach. That's because the EU is unable to set the policy now or in the future.



you know the uk always had control over its immigration policy for non eu emigrants right?

only thing that really changed is more control of  immigration from the eu


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Aug 16, 2022)

Chz said:


> I think some people forget how wildly popular he was with the general populace at the time.



Certainly for a period he was and definitely when compared to Starmer (who is hugely unpopular). Which kind of adds evidence for my point: history and political ideas are dynamic.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Aug 16, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> you know the uk always had control over its immigration policy for non eu emigrants right?
> 
> only thing that really changed is more control of  immigration from the eu



I did. If you’ll cast your mind back Cameron used the excuse of open migration from the EU to impose further restrictions on the rest of the world. A key reason for lots of BAME Brummies voting to leave actually.

Thank to Ax for reminding of us of this and adding to the weight of the argument.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Aug 16, 2022)

sleaterkinney said:


> I thought the trot entryists had been seen off?.



Indeed. The AWL and Socialist Apology have been seen off. All 50 of them. 

It’s the hundreds of thousands of non ‘trots’ who joined and are politically engaged who you’d be better advised to keep an eye on.


----------



## Ax^ (Aug 16, 2022)

Has brexit lead to a reduction in restrictions on immigration from the rest of the world or lead to more

not sure how you can proclaim we had to leave the EU due to its racist immigration policies when it lead to Patel and more restrictions but at some point in the distant future that can be changed


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Aug 16, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> Has brexit lead to a reduction in restrictions on immigration from the rest of the world or lead to more
> 
> not sure how you can proclaim we had to leave the EU due to its racist immigration policies when it lead to Patel and more restrictions but at some point in the distant future that can be changed



Brexit didn’t lead to that. The election of a Tory government did.


----------



## teuchter (Aug 16, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> The benefits of Brexit have been spelt out, it's just that planet remain refuses to acknowledge them. To do so would render the endless sulk even more ridiculous maybe?


I think that where the misunderstanding is happening is that when people ask about the "benefits of Brexit" they want examples of real things that have really happened in the real world as a real result of brexit. And that can be convincingly shown to have come about because of Brexit, rather than have happened to happen after Brexit.

What they don't want is the list of "possibilities", which have been outlined ad nauseum since before the vote.


----------



## Ax^ (Aug 16, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Brexit didn’t lead to that. The election of a Tory government did.



hmm are you saying that immigration was not a issue that was raised during the campaign for brexit and the resulting Tory government policies were not a reaction to the result


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Aug 16, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Brexit didn’t lead to that. The election of a Tory government did.


This is the weakest point of your argument. The way immigration policy has gone since 2016 has very clearly been a response to/enabled by the Brexit referendum. It's been a disgusting shitshow that shows absolutely no sign of changing any time soon. 

And this was predicted by many on here back in 2016. It was all too foreseeable.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Aug 16, 2022)

Protesting the EU’S immigration policy while standing shoulder to shoulder with Farage etc is probably the best one.


----------



## Maggot (Aug 16, 2022)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Curious that a story which is 100% about tweets made by someone with an EU flag next to their name should blame Brexit for delays from Athens, in Greece, famously in the EU. Did they also focus on the omni-shambles that is Schiphol, CDG or FRA right now? No, blow me down with a feather.





Smokeandsteam said:


> The issue with the lack of staff has not absolutely nothing to do with Brexit. The airports and airlines used Covid as an opportunity to lay off thousands of staff, particularly low paid baggage handlers/check in staff etc, despite the furlough scheme:
> 
> 
> 
> ...





The39thStep said:


> Where to start
> 
> The trouble with such accounts is that whilst scouring the news for anything that affects the UK that could possibly or impossibly be blamed on Brexit is that they ignore similar issues in their beloved EU.  I had a friend come over here three weeks ago via Lisbon on TAP , the flight from Manchester was delayed because of a shortage of baggage handlers, the connecting flight from Lisbon to here was canceled and she had to book a hotel to fly the next day and that flight was delayed due to staff shortages at Lisbon airport. Both in the UK and in the EU airports and airlines laid off staff and tried to take advantage of covid by rehiring on less wages .


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Aug 16, 2022)

teuchter said:


> I think that where the misunderstanding is happening is that when people ask about the "benefits of Brexit" they want examples of real things that have really happened in the real world as a real result of brexit. And that can be convincingly shown to have come about because of Brexit, rather than have happened to happen after Brexit.
> 
> What they don't want is the list of "possibilities", which have been outlined ad nauseum since before the vote.


It’s amazing how easy it is to find actual, tangible, measurable, negative consequences, yet for anything positive we have to accept mere _possibilities_


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Aug 16, 2022)

I also find it a bit frustrating to hear about things that, yes, were good for capital, such as free movement of people around the EU to work, study or play, and frictionless trade with no customs duties, as if these were purely elitist concerns. They're really not. Many working class people are badly affected by the removal of these things, reducing the possibilities of what they can do with their lives - particularly young people, the group that voted against Brexit overwhelmingly across all social classes.

To deny this requires you to reduce working class people to a patronising stereotype.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Aug 16, 2022)

Maggot said:


> View attachment 337971



I've posted evidence from the union representing airline and airport workers showing how the staff shortages were directly caused by bosses using the pandemic as a pretext to lay staff off and use fire and re-hire. You've posted a meme of a crying child.  We'll leave it there eh.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Aug 16, 2022)

teuchter said:


> I think that where the misunderstanding is happening is that when people ask about the "benefits of Brexit" they want examples of real things that have really happened in the real world as a real result of brexit. And that can be convincingly shown to have come about because of Brexit, rather than have happened to happen after Brexit.
> 
> What they don't want is the list of "possibilities", which have been outlined ad nauseum since before the vote.



It's not 'people'. It's a small group who want to fight the Referendum over and over again. And whatever is said they just come back with endless questions seeking to shift the goalposts or change the subject. 

Anyway, it's been fun seeing you all. I'll be back in a few months to see how you are getting on. Remember not to play with sharp things!


----------



## SysOut (Aug 16, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> It used to be the left who welcomed change and the right that wanted things to remain the same.


No. The liberals have been the most successful revolutionaries.
The french revolution was a complete success and even in those countriees where the revolutions per se failed, the liberals nevertheless prevailed without revolution, e.g. Germany.

In the UK there was no revolution, but the monarch, like the Kaiser, accommodated their wishes which is where we are today.



Smokeandsteam said:


> As we are on the Brexit thread I will say again that its real tragedy was the defeat of a disorientated Labour leadership


Where's the self-criticism?
If you haven't fixed the problem with Labour, nor created another party, as has happened in some EU countries, your talk of "possibilities" is absurd - don't you agree?


----------



## Karl Masks (Aug 16, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> 'Shut out left wing alternatives'


No doubt, but he didn't follow an actual left wing leader of the party who stood as leader in two generl elections. Said leader is then blamed vociferously and solely for all Labour's failings, the point being that they are now even more determined to make sure that never happens again. Besides, if Starmer goes who is there that could stand?


----------



## Karl Masks (Aug 16, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Karl, let's deal with one thing at a time. Do you have any comments on the credible research you asked for and which I supplied? Or just more questions?


I haven't read it all yet, so I'm happy to accept the conclusion that the EU has racist immigration policies for the sake of this conversation. I'm not saying it doesn't, btw, it's a capitalist instituation after all, but the alternative is where we, Britain, is at right now, and we are sending a small number of refugees to Rwanda as red meat for Tory supporters (while bring some back from Rwanda btw).

I just don't know how this helps the case for leaving


----------



## Karl Masks (Aug 16, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Brexit didn’t lead to that. The election of a Tory government did.


A specific Tory government, shaped by Brexit


----------



## SysOut (Aug 16, 2022)

SysOut said:


> No. The liberals have been the most successful revolutionaries.


To correct myself: of course, as revolutionaries, the liberals are "left"
Now they are the right, i.e. status quo, but their colour revolutions can be seen as left.

Btw, to confirm this idea of "left" and "right", during the Yeltsins putsch  against the putsch against Gorbatschov, C-Span, at least, referred to Yeltsin's lot as the "left", and the pro-soviets as the "right".....

Ah, to win, one must also control the narrative - and the vocabulary. With that, "right" have won hands down.

They've redefined "antisemitism", "socialism", "left" "working class", "middle class".. even "genocide". Newspeak.

Once, the left controlled the vocabulary, but that was with Marx, Engels and Lenin


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Aug 16, 2022)

Maggot said:


> View attachment 337971




Have you the slightest fuck what is going on in the world?


----------



## Ax^ (Aug 16, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> It's not 'people'. It's a small group who want to fight the Referendum over and over again. And whatever is said they just come back with endless questions seeking to shift the goalposts or change the subject.
> 
> Anyway, it's been fun seeing you all. I'll be back in a few months to see how you are getting on. Remember not to play with sharp things!



in my own defence you brought up immigration, 

saying that if i'd made the mental gymnastics that would be required to think that  the Brexit vote was for Britain to get a more inclusive 
and less racist immigration policy i'd more than likely want a few months off to think about it


----------



## editor (Aug 16, 2022)

So remind me how things have improved for casual workers since Brexit...



> Why are farms recruiting fruit pickers from 7,000 miles away?​
> A shortage of farm workers created by Brexit led to 8,000 tonnes of berries going unpicked last year. Russia’s invasion of Ukraine only made the shortage more critical – Ukrainians made up two-thirds of all workers arriving on seasonal worker visas in 2021, with almost 20,000 working on British farms. When war broke out weeks before the picking season was due to start, recruiters had to look beyond Ukraine, with a rise reported in farm workers arriving from Indonesia, Nepal, Vietnam, Kyrgyzstan and Kazakhstan.
> 
> How much do farms rely on seasonal workers from overseas?​A great deal. In 2019 about 2,500 workers came to Britain on a pilot of the seasonal worker visa. This year the number is expected to be 40,000, with many coming from distant countries and little funding or infrastructure to investigate the circumstances of their recruitment.
> ...











						Why UK farms are recruiting fruit pickers from 7,000 miles away
					

Last year, Ukrainians helped plug post-Brexit labour shortages. With the focus now on Asia, it’s unclear who should police issues such as illegal broker fees




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## editor (Aug 16, 2022)

Taking back control etc etc 









						Immigration has increased since Brexit, admits Tory MP
					

A Brexiteer Tory MP on Monday admitted immigration has increased since Britain voted to leave the EU.




					www.standard.co.uk


----------



## brogdale (Aug 16, 2022)

editor said:


> Taking back control etc etc
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Any chance of a pay-wall bust here?


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 16, 2022)

brogdale said:


> Any chance of a pay-wall bust here?


Don't need one with the standard


----------



## Ax^ (Aug 16, 2022)

just open the article in an incognito window

does not store cookies so you cool


----------



## bimble (Aug 16, 2022)

editor said:


> Taking back control etc etc
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I am glad that standard readers are going to realise this, if people understand what’s happening (brexit hasn’t reduced immigration) that might lead somewhere better possibly. This graph makes it clear as day, everything is & will continue to be done to try to keep the labour pool big and pliable.


----------



## Raheem (Aug 16, 2022)

bimble said:


> I am glad that standard readers are going to realise this, if people understand what’s happening (brexit hasn’t reduced immigration) that might lead somewhere better possibly. This graph makes it clear as day, everything is & will continue to be done to try to keep the labour pool big and pliable.
> View attachment 338010


Maybe so, but your graph seems to show a drop in overall numbers of getting on for a quarter since the referendum. So, Brexit has reduced immigration, according to that. As a result the workers are, as predicted, all living the high life due to the unstoppable operation of supply and demand. Or maybe there's a lot of vacancies going unfilled. I haven't checked which it is.


----------



## editor (Aug 16, 2022)

Raheem said:


> Maybe so, but your graph seems to show a drop in overall numbers of getting on for a quarter since the referendum. So, Brexit has reduced immigration, according to that.


You're forgetting the impact of Covid.


----------



## Raheem (Aug 16, 2022)

editor said:


> You're forgetting the impact of Covid.


Maybe so, but (again, purely going off the graph Bimble posted) the impact you might attribute to Covid looks fairly modest in the scheme of things.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Aug 16, 2022)

Illegal immigration has probably increased, though. Undocumented. I can't prove it but I feels it in me bones.


----------



## two sheds (Aug 16, 2022)

Is this price cap thing true?


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 16, 2022)

I didn't think there was one for all of the EU tbh. I know Spain and Portugal implemented their own price cap after not getting a decision from the EU around April. The EU later endorsed it. It is staggered over a year , starts at a cap of 40 euros  per mega watt hour  for six months and rises 5 euros a month ending on 70 euros  per mega watt hour . The average price over the year is 50 euros  per mega watt hour

(edited) Portugal are also refusing to agree to the EU call for a 15% reduction in gas as that would push up electricity prices. The drought has reduced the capacity for hydropower to create electricity.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Aug 16, 2022)

two sheds said:


> Is this price cap thing true?
> 
> View attachment 338044



Probably an EU average, there isn't a unitary energy policy or cap afaik, but from what I can tell all the EU countries are doing a lot more than us.









						Factbox: Europe's efforts to shield households from soaring energy costs
					

Europe is facing a sharp rise in power bills driven by sky-rocketing gas prices, as war in Ukraine and European sanctions on Russia heighten concerns over the security of gas supplies.




					www.reuters.com


----------



## Raheem (Aug 16, 2022)

In France, the cap is 4% every six months or something.

Britain does seem to be the only place where forcing a large proportion of the public into sudden destitution is seen as sensible politics.


----------



## xenon (Aug 16, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> in my own defence you brought up immigration,
> 
> saying that if i'd made the mental gymnastics that would be required to think that  the Brexit vote was for Britain to get a more inclusive
> and less racist immigration policy i'd more than likely want a few months off to think about it



I generally appreciate smokeandsteams posts but this^ did make me LOL.

I was actually one of those Brexit spoiler voters cos stood in the booth I thought a remain endorses fortress Europe, ever more neo liberal reforms, but a no lines up with Farage, racists, Mogg Johnson etc. Course I thought remain would win narrowly.

Anyway, I said all this 5 years ago. Nothing's changed for the better as a result of Brexit IMO.  I don't think Brexit is a win. The Lexit stuff is a week joke by no one near any levers of power except those they could have already wrestled away under the EU. But also, we are where we are. The brexiters I have beef with are the nationalistic, proudly racist Tory voting anti working class  filth. Not those generally on the same side but with a different take.


----------



## stdP (Aug 16, 2022)

Raheem said:


> Britain does seem to be the only place where forcing a large proportion of the public into sudden destitution is seen as sensible politics.



It makes the eyes of every true patriotic Briton well up to see the invisible hand of the market use the efficiencies of the private sector to bring the liberating effect of commodity hiatus externalities to the public with such strategic elan, in a way that precious few other countries could hope to imagine. Let us all feast upon hypothermic bulldogs this winter, and rejoice!


----------



## xenon (Aug 16, 2022)

Raheem said:


> In France, the cap is 4% every six months or something.
> 
> Britain does seem to be the only place where forcing a large proportion of the public into sudden destitution is seen as sensible politics.



Shush, You can't interfear with the market. Banking crisis, well OK that was a one off. Covid OK, well yep.... Look it's about time we just let the people experience penuary it's the only way to achieve growth. Making average people richer doesn't do any wonders for the economy, you know. Also, you just lack graft.


----------



## Humberto (Aug 17, 2022)

I argued for remain to an extent, but now it is gone I'm glad we won't be tied to the hard right currents that are rising abroad and can isolate and deal with those in our own country first of all.

The layers of neoliberal bureaucracy it would take while democracy is a background concern is suspicious. And to not be seen as not with the programme too as perhaps ethno-nationalism would accelerate (and still may).

That's not abstract surely?

Lovely sunshine though.


----------



## philosophical (Aug 17, 2022)

Raheem said:


> In France, the cap is 4% every six months or something.
> 
> Britain does seem to be the only place where forcing a large proportion of the public into sudden destitution is seen as sensible politics.



Is it more accurate to say the ‘United Kingdom’ rather than ‘Britain’?


----------



## Raheem (Aug 17, 2022)

philosophical said:


> Is it more accurate to say the ‘United Kingdom’ rather than ‘Britain’?


Yes, although the whole thing is time-sensitive.


----------



## mojo pixy (Aug 17, 2022)

Raheem said:


> Britain does seem to be the only place where forcing a large proportion of the public into sudden destitution is seen as sensible politics.


viz the many Inclosures acts that fed thousands upon thousands of peasants into glorious imperial workhouses, factories and armies of conquest. And like that, I don't think any of this is unplanned, unforseen, or accidental.


----------



## editor (Aug 17, 2022)




----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Aug 17, 2022)

They missed off the huge list of _potential_ benefits. You know, the ones that will be with us any day now.


----------



## Maggot (Aug 17, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I've posted evidence from the union representing airline and airport workers showing how the staff shortages were directly caused by bosses using the pandemic as a pretext to lay staff off and use fire and re-hire. You've posted a meme of a crying child.  We'll leave it there eh.


Here's an aviation expert. 








						Brexit staff shortages are causing travel chaos, explains aviation expert
					

Brexit is making it harder for airports and airlines to recruit staff, adding to shortages that are causing travel chaos, according to a leading recruiter.




					www.lbc.co.uk


----------



## brogdale (Aug 17, 2022)

Maggot said:


> Here's an aviation expert.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ah, but the British people "have had enough of experts."


----------



## andysays (Aug 17, 2022)

Maggot said:


> Here's an aviation expert.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So nothing to do with all the staff sacked at the beginning of Covid.

And LBC describe the managing director of the Aviation Recruitment Network as an "aviation expert" and you swallow it hook, line and sinker.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Aug 17, 2022)

While other countries are suffering from Covid, late stage capitalism and fucking stupid decisions so we’re not alone in our misery, I do think it’s fair to say brexit has so far only exacerbated these issues on this green and foetid isle.

Sure in maybe 5-10 years we may possibly move towards socialism as a result but in the meantime it’s going to be so shit and I don’t see the brakes going onto our slide yet.


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 17, 2022)

Maggot said:


> Here's an aviation expert.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Doesn't really explain why scores of EU airports are in the same boat though, does it?

And even if it was the case, have we really got to stage where supposed lefties are complaining that Brexit has made it more difficult for chiselling employers to find people to pay shit wages???

Someone was moaning about the lack of fruit pickers from Europe the other day, and them being replaced by ones from Asia. Isn't that a good thing for the Asian fruit pickers? If not, why was it a good thing for the European ones?


----------



## Maggot (Aug 17, 2022)

andysays said:


> So nothing to do with all the staff sacked at the beginning of Covid.
> 
> And LBC describe the managing director of the Aviation Recruitment Network as an "aviation expert" and you swallow it hook, line and sinker.


Simon Calder, the bosses of Easyjet and Ryanair alll say the same thing.


----------



## Maggot (Aug 17, 2022)

Spymaster said:


> Doesn't really explain why scores of EU airports are in the same boat though, does it?


The delays and cancellations are worse in the UK than the rest of Europe.



			https://www.fitchratings.com/research/infrastructure-project-finance/uk-airports-are-most-exposed-to-air-travel-disruptions-in-europe-13-07-2022
		




Spymaster said:


> Someone was moaning about the lack of fruit pickers from Europe the other day, and them being replaced by ones from Asia. Isn't that a good thing for the Asian fruit pickers? If not, why was it a good thing for the European ones?


Because they have to travel much further.


----------



## Raheem (Aug 17, 2022)

Spymaster said:


> Someone was moaning about the lack of fruit pickers from Europe the other day, and them being replaced by ones from Asia. Isn't that a good thing for the Asian fruit pickers? If not, why was it a good thing for the European ones?


I don't really know, but Asian fruitpickers are no more able to come to the UK than EU ones, so it's quite possible that they are here illegally, getting paid next to nothing, sleeping on the floor, and no-one is paying any NI.


----------



## andysays (Aug 17, 2022)

Maggot said:


> Simon Calder, the bosses of Easyjet and Ryanair alll say the same thing.


Of course they do.

Bosses blame Brexit and you lap it up.


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 17, 2022)

Maggot said:


> Simon Calder, the bosses of Easyjet and Ryanair alll say the same thing.


Not the same bosses of EasyJet and Ryanair who have been in dispute with employees in several European countries over staffing and pay ?


----------



## Ax^ (Aug 18, 2022)

Spymaster said:


> Someone was moaning about the lack of fruit pickers from Europe the other day, and them being replaced by ones from Asia. Isn't that a good thing for the Asian fruit pickers? If not, why was it a good thing for the European ones?



they should just follow the next PM mantra and get the lazy feckless Brits to do it all

could even think up a snazzy slogan "Dig for Brexit"

sure the party or brexit has some plans along these lines just waiting to come out of the wood work, make it part of getting Universal Credit


----------



## Artaxerxes (Aug 18, 2022)

“Not checking items at the border is much more efficient than having to check items at the border like we agreed to do”


----------



## Karl Masks (Aug 18, 2022)

a brexit benefit: the ability to suspend brexit


----------



## Ax^ (Aug 18, 2022)

Artaxerxes said:


> “Not checking items at the border is much more efficient than having to check items at the border like we agreed to do”




it almost like good from the EU are of such a high standard that they don't need to be check at the boarder taking back control by not having any yay

next the plank will say the UK will take back complete control of its boarder in the name of efficiency by rejoining the EFTA and most of the people who voted to leave won't know the difference


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 18, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> it almost like good from the EU are of such a high standard that they don't need to be check at the boarder taking back control by not having any yay
> 
> next the plank will say the UK will take back complete control of its boarder in the name of efficiency by rejoining the EFTA and most of the people who voted to leave won't know the difference


i can't believe it's not brussels


----------



## Yossarian (Aug 18, 2022)

Artaxerxes said:


> “Not checking items at the border is much more efficient than having to check items at the border like we agreed to do”




Did they run Brexit border scenarios through a NORAD supercomputer?


----------



## Yossarian (Aug 18, 2022)




----------



## A380 (Aug 20, 2022)




----------



## Cloo (Aug 24, 2022)

Thanks to the wonderful combo of Brexit and Covid, we probably now won't have a hire car on our holiday this week because we need an International Drivers' License and,  while husband was clever enough to get some in advance just in case in 2019, they ran out in 2020 and as we haven't been abroad for two fucking years we forgot about that particular joy.

Fortunately holiday should be quite manageable without as we're staying within a small area and I understand buses are good and a lot of people go without cars anyway,  but thank fuck we weren't planning on anything where a car is essential.


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 24, 2022)

Cloo said:


> Thanks to the wonderful combo of Brexit and Covid, we probably now won't have a hire car on our holiday this week because we need an International Drivers' License and,  while husband was clever enough to get some in advance just in case in 2019, they ran out in 2020 and as we haven't been abroad for two fucking years we forgot about that particular joy.
> 
> Fortunately holiday should be quite manageable without as we're staying within a small area and I understand buses are good and a lot of people go without cars anyway,  but thank fuck we weren't planning on anything where a car is essential.



Where are you going, and when? 

You can get an International Driving Permit over the counter at a Post Office if you have a valid UK licence.


----------



## Cloo (Aug 24, 2022)

I'm on my way to post office right now! Gsv may or may not be able to in time but we'll be ok if at least I can


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 24, 2022)

Cloo said:


> I'm on my way to post office right now! Gsv may or may not be able to in time but we'll be ok if at least I can



You'll need a passport photo, your driving licence, and passport if you still have an old style licence with a paper counterpart.


----------



## Cloo (Aug 24, 2022)

Yeah, had the photo and my license with me. Dashed out and missing a (large group) meeting,  but you can't take your chances with Post Offices - 'Sorry, we've run out', 'Only Fred can do those and he's not in today' etc,  so did not want to chance end of day.


----------



## Elpenor (Aug 24, 2022)

I’ve had one a few times for driving in the US (technically needed but they never asked) and Korea (very much was needed). Always found it funny that it looks like something you could make at home!


----------



## Ax^ (Aug 24, 2022)

just remember you only got 3rd party fire and thief whilst driving in europe with most providers


----------



## Cloo (Aug 24, 2022)

Elpenor said:


> I’ve had one a few times for driving in the US (technically needed but they never asked) and Korea (very much was needed). Always found it funny that it looks like something you could make at home!


Yeah,  very old school!


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 24, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> just remember you only got 3rd party fire and thief whilst driving in europe with most providers


----------



## Ax^ (Aug 24, 2022)

government advise  




> Insurance for your vehicle, caravan or trailer​All UK vehicle insurance provides the minimum third party cover to drive in the EU (including Ireland).
> 
> You do not need to carry a green card when you drive in the EU (including Ireland), Andorra, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Iceland, Liechtenstein, Norway, Serbia, or Switzerland. You still need valid vehicle insurance.




some of us have different things mentioned in their policy if you pick them, who know what Cloo has on her policy after 2 years of covid

i should of cancelled my sports package with sky during it but was daft


----------



## SysOut (Aug 24, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> just remember you only got 3rd party fire and thief whilst driving in europe with most providers


just remember you only got 3rd party fire and thief whilst driving in europe, 007.


----------



## Ax^ (Aug 24, 2022)

i'd check before doing it

jebus you be surprised about the fuckwits who expect their insurance to cover them for a spin around the nuremberg ring


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 24, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> government advise
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That's the minimum level of cover that UK insurers are required to provide by law. Most policies will cover the holder for driving in Europe to the same level as they do in the UK. Worth checking though. 

Cloo is hiring a car though. Hire car insurance is comprehensive, but subject to pretty hefty excesses (which can be insured themselves).


----------



## Elpenor (Aug 24, 2022)

Yes and for hiring a car you can arrange your own policy in advance for far cheaper than what they’ll try to charge you when you collect the car and then decline their coverage


----------



## TopCat (Aug 29, 2022)

Maggot said:


> Simon Calder, the bosses of Easyjet and Ryanair alll say the same thing.


The bosses who sacked loads of their staff rather than pay the 20% furlough employers segment. Then can't recruit as the jobs are shite, with terrible pay and conditions and have to be airside accredited (like a turbo DRB).


----------



## _Russ_ (Aug 29, 2022)




----------



## The39thStep (Aug 29, 2022)

_Russ_ said:


>


Russ can you explain how by being in the EU electricity price rises are lower ?


----------



## _Russ_ (Aug 29, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Russ can you explain how by being in the EU electricity price rises are lower ?


Sorry, possibly a poor choice of thread to post this, I think it has little to do with being in the EU directly but is more an indication of how countries that do choose to be in the EU also choose to actually support their general population as oppossed to fucking them over and letting the corporate world take all the pie


----------



## andysays (Aug 29, 2022)

_Russ_ said:


> Sorry, possibly a poor choice of thread to post this, I think it has little to do with being in the EU directly but is more an indication of how countries that do choose to be in the EU also choose to actually support their general population as oppossed to fucking them over and letting the corporate world take all the pie



It's much more to do with the UK's huge dependency on gas to generate electricity, largely imported now that North Sea gas is running out.

It's a deep seated structural problem which has its origins long before Brexit was a gleam in Farage's eye.

Dash for Gas​


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 29, 2022)

_Russ_ said:


> Sorry, possibly a poor choice of thread to post this, I think it has little to do with being in the EU directly but is more an indication of how countries that do choose to be in the EU also choose to actually support their general population as oppossed to fucking them over and letting the corporate world take all the pie



How are they doing that though. Let’s take Italy, from your picture. What are Italy doing to support their general population?


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 29, 2022)

_Russ_ said:


> Sorry, possibly a poor choice of thread to post this, I think it has little to do with being in the EU directly but is more an indication of how countries that do choose to be in the EU also choose to actually support their general population as oppossed to fucking them over and letting the corporate world take all the pie


There's precious little evidence of thought there. If what you said was true then there wouldn't be the housing crisis in Ireland there is. You see one thing and extrapolate too far from it


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 29, 2022)

Spymaster said:


> How are they doing that though. Let’s take Italy, from your picture. What are Italy doing to support their general population?


It's wicked to mock the afflicted


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 29, 2022)

_Russ_ said:


> Sorry, possibly a poor choice of thread to post this, I think it has little to do with being in the EU directly but is more an indication of how countries that do choose to be in the EU also choose to actually support their general population as oppossed to fucking them over and letting the corporate world take all the pie


Ha ha I'm not sure that if you went to those countries that residents would say the same tbh.

Here's a comparison of prices across a range of countries in Europe. The cheapest aren't actually in the EU .


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 29, 2022)

Spymaster said:


> How are they doing that though. Let’s take Italy, from your picture. What are Italy doing to support their general population?


----------



## Maggot (Aug 29, 2022)

TopCat said:


> The bosses who sacked loads of their staff rather than pay the 20% furlough employers segment. Then can't recruit as the jobs are shite, with terrible pay and conditions and have to be airside accredited (like a turbo DRB).


And Simon Calder? He isn't a boss, just a travel expert. 

They didn't have recruitment problems before Brexit and they are much worse here than in most EU countries.


----------



## brogdale (Aug 29, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Ha ha I'm not sure that if you went to those countries that residents would say the same tbh.
> 
> Here's a comparison of prices across a range of countries in Europe. The cheapest aren't actually in the EU .
> 
> View attachment 340154


There are some non-EU states there with significantly cheaper (July) prices, but when 26 of the 27 member states do have lower electricity prices, it's no surprise that pro-suprastate folk point that out.

Goodness knows how the impending UK cap hikes would make the UK look on any updated version of that chart.


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 29, 2022)

brogdale said:


> There are some non-EU states there with significantly cheaper (July) prices, but when 26 of the 27 member states do have lower electricity prices, it's no surprise that pro-suprastate folk point that out.
> 
> Goodness knows how the impending UK cap hikes would make the UK look on any updated version of that chart.


Again I’ll ask the question how does being in the EU account for lower electricity prices ?


----------



## Artaxerxes (Sep 3, 2022)

Legitimate thanks to this brexiteer 









						Jacob Rees-Mogg blocking major UK tourism campaign
					

Exclusive: Despite ‘Global Britain’ rhetoric, Brexit opportunities minister refused to sign off budget to revive pandemic-hit industry




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Cloo (Sep 3, 2022)

Cloo said:


> Yeah, had the photo and my license with me. Dashed out and missing a (large group) meeting,  but you can't take your chances with Post Offices - 'Sorry, we've run out', 'Only Fred can do those and he's not in today' etc,  so did not want to chance end of day.


Of course, after that,  turned out the hire guys didn't care if we had it or not


----------



## teqniq (Sep 3, 2022)

Oh, whoops, never mind...









						Aaron Banks ‘writes off £7m loan’ as Leave.EU goes into liquidation
					

Brexit campaign group fronted by Nigel Farage leaves thousands in unpaid fines for data law breaches




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Ming (Sep 3, 2022)

Have we had this one yet? So Brexit has led to an attack on workers rights and unions. Surprise, surprise.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Sep 4, 2022)

Ming said:


> Have we had this one yet? So Brexit has led to an attack on workers rights and unions. Surprise, surprise.



If only some people had said this was the plan all along, eh?


----------



## A380 (Sep 4, 2022)

Ming said:


> Have we had this one yet? So Brexit has led to an attack on workers rights and unions. Surprise, surprise.



Ah, but that actually shows Lexit is working, because... um...look over there! A Squirrel!


----------



## gosub (Sep 4, 2022)

A380 said:


> Ah, but that actually shows Lexit is working, because... um...look over there! A Squirrel!


----------



## Yossarian (Sep 4, 2022)

A380 said:


> Ah, but that actually shows Lexit is working, because... um...look over there! A Squirrel!



Now then, we have been reminded - at great length - that Lexit is on a path to success because Brexit has removed barriers to the "removal of undemocratic constraints on state aid, planning, investment and management of the economy," opening the door to socialist reforms as soon as the people of Britain start voting for a party that will implement them.

Some might argue that Brexit has only cemented Tory rule and made such reforms more distant than ever, or that popular support for a Lexit would only occur if a leftist government was elected and encountered EU obstacles to its plans - and those skeptics are the ones who sabotaged Lexit and are solely responsible for the current shitscape.


----------



## A380 (Sep 4, 2022)

Yossarian said:


> Now then, we have been reminded - at great length - that Lexit is on a path to success because Brexit has removed barriers to the "removal of undemocratic constraints on state aid, planning, investment and management of the economy," opening the door to socialist reforms as soon as the people of Britain start voting for a party that will implement them.
> 
> Some might argue that Brexit has only cemented Tory rule and made such reforms more distant than ever, or that popular support for a Lexit would only occur if a leftist government was elected and encountered EU obstacles to its plans - and those skeptics are the ones who sabotaged Lexit and are solely responsible for the current shitscape.



Indeed,  feed from the shackles of the EU our new plucky prime minister will start to dismantle the anti worker legislation that was only there at the diktat of Brussels. My money’s on Thursday…


----------



## inva (Sep 4, 2022)

The funny thing is the lexiters weren't too far off were they, in 2017 they came relatively close to getting a Labour government comitted to leaving the EU - close enough that the lexit gamble doesn't seem too wild anyway. Of course to sensible liberals it is always abhorrent for socialists to stick to their principles in any circumstances as it can only enable the Tories but there you go.


----------



## A380 (Sep 4, 2022)

.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 4, 2022)

A380 said:


> .


Don't drive yourself dotty


----------



## philosophical (Sep 4, 2022)

inva said:


> The funny thing is the lexiters weren't too far off were they, in 2017 they came relatively close to getting a Labour government comitted to leaving the EU - close enough that the lexit gamble doesn't seem too wild anyway. Of course to sensible liberals it is always abhorrent for socialists to stick to their principles in any circumstances as it can only enable the Tories but there you go.


Trouble is the lexiter wankers, and now the Labour (make Brexit work) party is they still have no solution to the EU/UK land border.
Some will deflect by attacking anybody like me raising the issue, others will try to retrofit a justification for their leave vote by saying they were secretly voting for a United Ireland.
Nah, those of the left who voted leave without a ready to go land border solution are the same as Farage. Cunts.


----------



## inva (Sep 4, 2022)

philosophical said:


> Trouble is the lexiter wankers, and now the Labour (make Brexit work) party is they still have no solution to the EU/UK land border.
> Some will deflect by attacking anybody like me raising the issue, others will try to retrofit a justification for their leave vote by saying they were secretly voting for a United Ireland.
> Nah, those of the left who voted leave without a ready to go land border solution are the same as Farage. Cunts.


I voted leave but wasn't a lexiter so I reckon I'm alright then thank goodness!


----------



## brogdale (Sep 4, 2022)

inva said:


> I voted leave but wasn't a lexiter so I reckon I'm alright then thank goodness!


So, going as you hoped, then?


----------



## Ax^ (Sep 4, 2022)

liz truss as pm a shite Boris knock off 

getting brexit done


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 4, 2022)

inva said:


> I voted leave but wasn't a lexiter so I reckon I'm alright then thank goodness!


Nobody who voted Leave will escape the wrath of that poster. Actually, those who voted remain but who didn't think about the border issue aren't safe either


----------



## Ax^ (Sep 4, 2022)

if i was from north Ireland and the general idea was we did not give a shite about you
aside from giving the DUP money to support Teresa May

i might of been a little upset to

Plus sensible  people of north Ireland in 2022, we are quite content with how the protocol is working out
nope sorry the orange men and right wing brexiters are upset so go fuck yourselves

we messing with the protocol for reasons and you can deal with it


----------



## brogdale (Sep 4, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Nobody who voted Leave will escape the wrath of that poster. Actually, those who voted remain but who didn't think about the border issue aren't safe either


I didn't vote, wasn't a lexiter so I reckon I'm alright then thank goodness!
Or am I?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Sep 4, 2022)

brogdale said:


> I didn't vote, wasn't a lexiter so I reckon I'm alright then thank goodness!
> Or am I?



How many months did you spend pondering the border issue before choosing not to vote


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 4, 2022)

brogdale said:


> I didn't vote, wasn't a lexiter so I reckon I'm alright then thank goodness!
> Or am I?


If you abstained without thinking about the border you are toast , in fact you are toast anyway because if you had thought about the border according to that poster you would have voted remain.


----------



## Ax^ (Sep 4, 2022)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> How many months did you spend pondering the border issue before choosing not to vote



from the guy who came out with the below nonsense



Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Nonsense, Ireland made a choice to stay in the Common Travel Area rather than Schengen long before the spectre of Brexit reared it's head. That choice was made as it was considered beneficial to the people of ROI to do so, it is still considered beneficial to continue along those lines. Ireland can leave the Common Travel Area any time it chooses.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Sep 4, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> from the guy who came out with the below nonsense




Which part of that isn't true?


----------



## Ax^ (Sep 4, 2022)

the common travel area predating the EU

Ireland not have a land boarder or close port with Europe

and some fuckers nicking 6 counties


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Sep 4, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> the common travel area predating the EU




Where did I say that?


----------



## brogdale (Sep 4, 2022)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> How many months did you spend pondering the border issue before choosing not to vote


Funnily enough...in my head, I'd started a thread about the border issue years before the referendum, and thought I'd offer you a smart-arse response. On checking, turns out that the thread was started by ska invita after the referendum and I didn't have anything to say about the issue until 2 days after the referendum! Just shows how the mind plays tricks or mebbe it's just the Bishops!


----------



## Ax^ (Sep 4, 2022)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Where did I say that?



not sure what your original remark was meant to say aside ,if the Irish don't like what we are doing, you can  pay for a hard boarder yourselves?


----------



## Ax^ (Sep 4, 2022)

hopefully Scotland gets an  independence vote

and both governments can share notes


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Sep 4, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> not sure what your original remark was meant to say aside ,if the Irish don't like what we are doing, you can  pay for a hard boarder yourselves?



Stop trying to move the fucking goalposts, answer the question:



Ax^ said:


> from the guy who came out with the below nonsense






Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Which part of that isn't true?


----------



## Ax^ (Sep 4, 2022)

before i continue do you classify your self as English


----------



## two sheds (Sep 4, 2022)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Which part of that isn't true?


might have been true, accurate nonsense have you thought of that?


----------



## Superdupastupor (Sep 4, 2022)

€280~~ because we forgot that you cannot travel on a biometric national-identity anymore (fuuuuuuuuuuuuuk) so a same day temporary passport, interview with border police, signing an official state document stating any false info provided would lead to a €5000 fine or cantpay/won'tpay for 6 months in the bighouse.

nobody knows the 12 or so laws associated- I felt I was better informed than all of the officials on both borders.

Of course, if you have *contracted work* you can still use the selfsame ID card to enter the UK


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Sep 4, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> before i continue do you classify your self as English




British, for whatever that is worth.


----------



## Ax^ (Sep 4, 2022)

don't worry the arrogance is understood 


carry on


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Sep 4, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> don't worry the arrogance is understood
> 
> 
> carry on




Stupid, racist prick.


----------



## Ax^ (Sep 4, 2022)

what not arrogance in saying

if the irish don't like it they can leave the CTA


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Sep 4, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> what not arrogance in saying
> 
> if the irish don't like it they can leave the CTA




They can if they wish, the moment the UK becomes less financially and culturally attractive to the ROI than Schengen they'll be off, and quite right too, it's not some long-held love of the UK that keeps the CTA in place.


----------



## Ax^ (Sep 4, 2022)

and he called me a racist ...


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Sep 4, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> and he called me a racist ...




You really are some kind of cunt, fuck off.


----------



## Ax^ (Sep 4, 2022)

still never called you a racist


feel free to fuck off to


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Sep 4, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> still never called you a racist
> 
> 
> feel free to fuck off to




Too, unless you want me to fuck off to somewhere. Either way another fine demonstration of your ignorance.


----------



## Ax^ (Sep 4, 2022)

the cta is due to the landborder and family ties

and of course the republic should just leave if we don't like it

feel free to carry on


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 4, 2022)

It's border not boarder, isn't it?


----------



## inva (Sep 4, 2022)

brogdale said:


> So, going as you hoped, then?


We've left the EU which was what I wanted, it's not like I imagined I would have any control over the withdrawal agreement or something. I know you chest prodding liberals seem to think leave voters as a whole should feel responsible for the results of successive general elections since the referendum but I can't say I do.


----------



## existentialist (Sep 4, 2022)

inva said:


> you chest prodding liberals


----------



## brogdale (Sep 4, 2022)

inva said:


> We've left the EU which was what I wanted, it's not like I imagined I would have any control over the withdrawal agreement or something. I know you chest prodding liberals seem to think leave voters as a whole should feel responsible for the results of successive general elections since the referendum but I can't say I do.


OK, but that comes across as a tad defensive tbh. I asked if leaving the EU was going as you hoped; as someone who didn't feel inclined to engage with the tory referendum I'm always interested in the views of those who did. Presumably you voted Leave knowing that you wouldn't be able to control subsequent election results?


----------



## inva (Sep 4, 2022)

brogdale said:


> OK, but that comes across as a tad defensive tbh. I asked if leaving the EU was going as you hoped; as someone who didn't feel inclined to engage with the tory referendum I'm always interested in the views of those who did. Presumably you voted Leave knowing that you wouldn't be able to control subsequent election results?


Oh come on 'it was a genuine question!' 😁
Yes obviously I voted leave knowing I couldn't control subsequent elections what kind of a question is that?


----------



## brogdale (Sep 4, 2022)

inva said:


> Oh come on 'it was a genuine question!' 😁
> Yes obviously I voted leave knowing I couldn't control subsequent elections what kind of a question is that?


s'OK if you don't have a view.


----------



## philosophical (Sep 4, 2022)

inva said:


> I voted leave but wasn't a lexiter so I reckon I'm alright then thank goodness!


What solution did you have in mind for the open land border between the EU and the UK when you voted leave?
It would be great if you could tell us, because after more than six years no other bugger has one.


----------



## inva (Sep 4, 2022)

brogdale said:


> s'OK if you don't have a view.


A view on what? Or are you still asking if it's going as I hoped? My motivation was anti-EU rather than for some particular vision of the UK, do I support policies enacted by the Conservative governments that have followed? No, and I doubt I'd have a much better opinion of any likely Labour government that might have happened either.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 4, 2022)

inva said:


> A view on what? Or are you still asking if it's going as I hoped? My motivation was anti-EU rather than for some particular vision of the UK, do I support policies enacted by the Conservative governments that have followed? No, and I doubt I'd have a much better opinion of any likely Labour government that might have happened either.


Fair enough.


----------



## inva (Sep 4, 2022)

philosophical said:


> What solution did you have in mind for the open land border between the EU and the UK when you voted leave?
> It would be great if you could tell us, because after more than six years no other bugger has one.


I'm glad you've asked because I think we can clear this one up once and for all. I had no solution in mind for the land border between the EU and the UK when I voted leave, in fact I didn't give it a second's thought. And before you ask I haven't thought about it since either.


----------



## philosophical (Sep 4, 2022)

I was born in 1953.
My mother Irish, and I have one brother living in County Clare.
Not unique though.
However my lived experience up until what was a great relief of the internationally agreed and ratified Belfast Agreement (the Good Friday Agreement to some), was frankly hugely coloured by the terrorism of the modern troubles. When I was a student in the early seventies I went out with somebody from Halesowen who knew victims of the Birmingham Pub Bombings, routine searches for people were common, people with Irish connections were vilified, there were miscarriages of justice all over. I was stunned by bloody Sunday, I was with my future partner in the City of London in the early 90's when a massive bomb exploded, visits to Ireland had the spectre of the troubles in the air constantly...there is much more but the summation is that it all was very hard to ignore, and it was a worry and it was stressful.
For me that was part of my lived reality, and I repeat the relative peace and relief from all that brought about by the GFA was significant.
Now I don't know about the age and the lived experience of posters here, and if they wish to wave away the 'Irish Question' then that is where they place themselves, but in regard to the vote to leave, and my constant question about leave in relation to the UK/EU land border many posters here find a lot of ways to mock me for mentioning it.
It is easier to attack me than to confront the reality of the implication of the vote to leave on the land border, there is extra incentive to have a go at me if you voted for leave, there is extra extra incentive to mock if you didn't give the land border circumstances a second thought when voting.
Well I am sorry but the issue isn't going away, indeed we now have Truss weighing in saying she wants to dismantle the unsatisfactory 'protocol' and saying Sinn Fein wants to drive a wedge between Northern Ireland and Great Britain, churning the potential for trouble further. 
The vote for the UK to leave the EU has ongoing unresolved matters, and lurking is the division in Ireland that has cost thousands of lives. On this thread there are posters who in my view actually relish the risk of further troubles judging by some of their comments. Maybe they are too young to realise what voting leave is inexorably ushering in, but leave voters have caused it and they should fix it, a better use of their energy than attacking me for constantly mentioning it.


----------



## philosophical (Sep 4, 2022)

inva said:


> I'm glad you've asked because I think we can clear this one up once and for all. I had no solution in mind for the land border between the EU and the UK when I voted leave, in fact I didn't give it a second's thought. And before you ask I haven't thought about it since either.


Maybe you haven't thought about it yet because what you voted for hasn't happened.


----------



## two sheds (Sep 4, 2022)

It's not your view that attracts ridicule from what I've seen. It's the _constant_ blaming of people who voted leave when in reality it's Johnson and the tory party who are to blame - they're the ones who've made the decisions.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Sep 4, 2022)

two sheds said:


> It's not your view that attracts ridicule from what I've seen. It's the _constant_ blaming of people who voted leave when in reality it's Johnson and the tory party who are to blame - they're the ones who've made the decisions.




Check the fool's opening gambit on this thread, it's been downhill from there.


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 4, 2022)

two sheds said:


> It's not your view that attracts ridicule from what I've seen. It's the _constant_ blaming of people who voted leave when in reality it's Johnson and the tory party who are to blame - they're the ones who've made the decisions.


Far too sensible thing to say for this thread


----------



## two sheds (Sep 4, 2022)

It would be similar to people demanding in every post that philosophical should solve the problems of the EU because he voted to remain.


----------



## Ax^ (Sep 4, 2022)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Check the fool's opening gambit on this thread, it's been downhill from there.







Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Nonsense, Ireland made a choice to stay in the Common Travel Area rather than Schengen long before the spectre of Brexit reared it's head. That choice was made as it was considered beneficial to the people of ROI to do so, it is still considered beneficial to continue along those lines. Ireland can leave the Common Travel Area any time it chooses.


----------



## philosophical (Sep 4, 2022)

two sheds said:


> It's not your view that attracts ridicule from what I've seen. It's the _constant_ blaming of people who voted leave when in reality it's Johnson and the tory party who are to blame - they're the ones who've made the decisions.


I disagree. Those who voted leave are responsible. That was a decision.


----------



## Ax^ (Sep 4, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Far too sensible thing to say for this thread



oddly enough, our man in Portugal


is not that interested


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 4, 2022)

two sheds said:


> It would be similar to people demanding in every post that philosophical should solve the problems of the EU because he voted to remain.


I wouldn't wish that on the eu


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 4, 2022)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> British, for whatever that is worth.


Not a lot


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Sep 4, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> Not a lot




Perhaps if the silly rabbit wasn’t resident in the British Isles the average IQ of these putrid islands would raise enough to make it worth more. A cross we all have to bear.


----------



## Ax^ (Sep 4, 2022)

is my intelligence in question because I'm Irish,
or are you just a shite orator


----------



## gosub (Sep 5, 2022)

inva said:


> Oh come on 'it was a genuine question!' 😁
> Yes obviously I voted leave knowing I couldn't control subsequent elections what kind of a question is that?


An odd one.  Does that mean in a parallel universe where remain won, all subsequent elections would be some how rigged?


----------



## gosub (Sep 5, 2022)

two sheds said:


> It's not your view that attracts ridicule from what I've seen. It's the _constant_ blaming of people who voted leave when in reality it's Johnson and the tory party who are to blame - they're the ones who've made the decisions.


You can't leave "I've done my best" May out of all this.  I mean you can blame Johnson for a fair bit wtf was she on?


----------



## Maltin (Sep 5, 2022)

inva said:


> I'm glad you've asked because I think we can clear this one up once and for all. I had no solution in mind for the land border between the EU and the UK when I voted leave, in fact I didn't give it a second's thought. And before you ask I haven't thought about it since either.


This probably sums up why we shouldn’t have referendums on complex matters.


----------



## Serge Forward (Sep 5, 2022)

I've forgotten, so can anyone remember, which minister it was who, when asked by some EU big shot, what the UK intended to do about its land border with the EU said "What land border?"


----------



## Raheem (Sep 5, 2022)

Serge Forward said:


> I've forgotten, so can anyone remember, which minister it was who, when asked by some EU big shot, what the UK intended to do about its land border with the EU said "What land border?"


David Davis, supposedly. Doubt it's a true story, though.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Sep 5, 2022)

Raheem said:


> David Davis, supposedly. Doubt it's a true story, though.



Raab wasn’t aware Dover was a port, never underestimate the ignorance of MPs


----------



## Karl Masks (Sep 5, 2022)

Why did some on the left believe leaving was the only way to facilitate re-nationalisation?


----------



## Artaxerxes (Sep 5, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> Why did some on the left believe leaving was the only way to facilitate re-nationalisation?



EU laws.

Much of the “nationalisation is bad” bumf is used by the WTO though to ensure “competition is fair” and both France and Germany tend to quite ignore the anti-nationalisation aspects of being in the EU


----------



## two sheds (Sep 5, 2022)

Quite:









						France to renationalise EDF
					

On 6 July the French government announced that it will take the country's primary electricity utility, EDF, back into full public ownership. This reverses the part-privatisation of 2005, from which 16% of the shares of EDF are now in private hands. The rationale of the decision is one which...




					www.workersliberty.org


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 5, 2022)

As I understand it the legal advice that ASLEF, TSSA and RMT received was that The Fourth Rail Package,  which was passed in 2016 by the EU,  explicitly creates a statutory role for the private sector in the railways ruling out nationalisation of the railways. I'm not sure what legal advice Workers Liberty received.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 5, 2022)

Raheem said:


> David Davis, supposedly. Doubt it's a true story, though.


I think you're confusing dermot murnaghan with an EU big shot The Brexit minister David Davis thinks the Republic of Ireland is part of the UK


----------



## teqniq (Sep 5, 2022)

That moment when you know you've fucked up:


----------



## Karl Masks (Sep 5, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> As I understand it the legal advice that ASLEF, TSSA and RMT received was that The Fourth Rail Package,  which was passed in 2016 by the EU,  explicitly creates a statutory role for the private sector in the railways ruling out nationalisation of the railways. I'm not sure what legal advice Workers Liberty received.











						Fact Check: do new EU rules make it impossible to renationalise railways?
					

Brexiters on the Left fear that a UK vote to Remain would permanently put the railways in private hands. Here’s our Fact Check verdict.




					theconversation.com
				




would suggest they were advised incorrectly, or misinterpreted that advice.

I'm sure there are other/better sources but it's before my breakfast


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Sep 5, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> Fact Check: do new EU rules make it impossible to renationalise railways?
> 
> 
> Brexiters on the Left fear that a UK vote to Remain would permanently put the railways in private hands. Here’s our Fact Check verdict.
> ...



Yeah, you probably do need a better source because the author of your source is forced to admit:

"What the package does propose *is to open up each country’s rail network to competition and ultimately create a single European market in rail services*. The three main components of the changes, which are currently awaiting European parliament approval, are that *each member state liberalises passenger services*; develops *common operating standards for both trains and the workforce* and has an independent infrastructure manager (even while ownership of infrastructure and services can be under the same company).

When it comes to liberalising passenger services, the word “liberalise” is open to interpretation. It could be taken to mean they must be run by private companies, which would rule out any renationalisation in mainland Britain. But that looks to me like the very worst-case scenario."

I left the last sentence in for the LoL because if anyone seriously thinks that these proposals pave the way for the re-nationalisation of the railways they need a lie down.


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 5, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> Fact Check: do new EU rules make it impossible to renationalise railways?
> 
> 
> Brexiters on the Left fear that a UK vote to Remain would permanently put the railways in private hands. Here’s our Fact Check verdict.
> ...


They must be feeling very embarrassed now . If only they had just emailed a Lecturer in Transport Economics at a former Tech College rather than paying hefty fees to barristers who specialise in EU law they could have been advised correctly and saved a hefty fee.  

Of course, as you say they could still 'misinterpret' even his worthy opinion.


----------



## MrSki (Sep 5, 2022)

So Corbyn's 2019 manifesto pledge to nationalise the rail network was all bollocks?


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 5, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> Fact Check: do new EU rules make it impossible to renationalise railways?
> 
> 
> Brexiters on the Left fear that a UK vote to Remain would permanently put the railways in private hands. Here’s our Fact Check verdict.
> ...


perhaps you should have read down as far as the end of the page


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 5, 2022)

MrSki said:


> So Corbyn's 2019 manifesto pledge to nationalise the rail network was all bollocks?


i don't think it need have been, because that could have been done at any point after leaving the eu. so, if liz truss decided overnight to renationalise the railways now and could muster a parliamentary majority to agree with her then it could be done before xmas.


----------



## Karl Masks (Sep 5, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> They must be feeling very embarrassed now . If only they had just emailed a Lecturer in Transport Economics at a former Tech College rather than paying hefty fees to barristers who specialise in EU law they could have been advised correctly and saved a hefty fee.
> 
> Of course, as you say they could still 'misinterpret' even his worthy opinion.


This silly attitude isn't really productive is it. I didn't say they were definitively wrong. I simply said there is evidence to suggest they might be.


----------



## Chz (Sep 5, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Yeah, you probably do need a better source because the author of your source is forced to admit:
> 
> "What the package does propose *is to open up each country’s rail network to competition and ultimately create a single European market in rail services*. The three main components of the changes, which are currently awaiting European parliament approval, are that *each member state liberalises passenger services*; develops *common operating standards for both trains and the workforce* and has an independent infrastructure manager (even while ownership of infrastructure and services can be under the same company).
> 
> ...


Note that there's nothing that prevents a government-owned railway company from taking part in open competition. And if the government owned railway is run in such a way that nothing can compete with it, well then so be it. If the common operating standards are such that it would be difficult for anyone who's not a subsidised railway to meet them, then so be it. That's pretty much the way other EU countries have interpreted it. We've already temporarily re-nationalised TOCs and no-one in the EU batted an eyelid about it.


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 5, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> This silly attitude isn't really productive is it. I didn't say they were definitively wrong. I simply said there is evidence to suggest they might be.


Can you please post up something that backs your view  up then


----------



## Karl Masks (Sep 5, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Yeah, you probably do need a better source because the author of your source is forced to admit:
> 
> "What the package does propose *is to open up each country’s rail network to competition and ultimately create a single European market in rail services*. The three main components of the changes, which are currently awaiting European parliament approval, are that *each member state liberalises passenger services*; develops *common operating standards for both trains and the workforce* and has an independent infrastructure manager (even while ownership of infrastructure and services can be under the same company).
> 
> ...


Fair enough, I just googled. I'm not at this time minded to do a more in depth research, besides which it's the sort of claim that, without knowing good sources to begin with, makes the job impossible given that you'll find a ton of results either way and nothing definitive


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 5, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> This silly attitude isn't really productive is it. I didn't say they were definitively wrong. I simply said there is evidence to suggest they might be.





Karl Masks said:


> Fact Check: do new EU rules make it impossible to renationalise railways?
> 
> 
> Brexiters on the Left fear that a UK vote to Remain would permanently put the railways in private hands. Here’s our Fact Check verdict.
> ...


yeh but you didn't read your link to the end


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 5, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> Fair enough, I just googled. I'm not at this time minded to do a more in depth research, besides which it's the sort of claim that, without knowing good sources to begin with, makes the job impossible given that you'll find a ton of results either way and nothing definitive


a good man knows his limitations
--harry callahan


----------



## Karl Masks (Sep 5, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Can you please post up something that backs your view  up then


A thank you to Brexiteers. wasn't a view, it was a question. I don't know what the truth is, else I wouldn't have asked


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Sep 5, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> Fair enough, I just googled. I'm not at this time minded to do a more in depth research, besides which it's the sort of claim that, without knowing good sources to begin with, makes the job impossible given that you'll find a ton of results either way and nothing definitive



Yeah, but if you are going to make statements like this: 


Karl Masks said:


> Why did some on the left believe leaving was the only way to facilitate re-nationalisation?



probably best to read up before doing so?


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Sep 5, 2022)

MrSki said:


> So Corbyn's 2019 manifesto pledge to nationalise the rail network was all bollocks?



Um, no, we were leaving the EU and therefore the 4th package no longer applied to Britain.


----------



## MrSki (Sep 5, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Um, no, we were leaving the EU and therefore the 4th package no longer applied to Britain.


After a 2nd referendum that was also an election pledge?


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Sep 5, 2022)

Chz said:


> Note that there's nothing that prevents a government-owned railway company from taking part in open competition. And if the government owned railway is run in such a way that nothing can compete with it, well then so be it. If the common operating standards are such that it would be difficult for anyone who's not a subsidised railway to meet them, then so be it. That's pretty much the way other EU countries have interpreted it. We've already temporarily re-nationalised TOCs and no-one in the EU batted an eyelid about it.



True. But to do so would mean the government owned railway competing on the basis of a race to to the bottom of cost savings, attacking terms and conditions, lowering pay etc. Surely you can see why a trade union would be opposed to that?


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Sep 5, 2022)

MrSki said:


> After a 2nd referendum that was also an election pledge?



Aye, hard to believe Labour's position - crafted by Starmer and his remainer mates - lost them 5 million votes isn't it.


----------



## Karl Masks (Sep 5, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Yeah, but if you are going to make statements like this:
> 
> 
> probably best to read up before doing so?


Sure, but that wasn't a statement. Asserting it was is bad faith on your part.

Now, if you can cite some credible sources I'm happy to take a look. I'm not a cheerleader for the EU like much of left wing british youtube these days.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Sep 5, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> Sure, but that wasn't a statement. Asserting it was is bad faith on your part.
> 
> Now, if you can cite some credible sources I'm happy to take a look. I'm not a cheerleader for the EU like much of left wing british youtube these days.



I do not believe that there are any credible sources that lend credence to any suggestion that the best way to facilitate the re-nationalisation of key sections of the national economy was best achieved by remining in the neo-liberal EU.


----------



## mojo pixy (Sep 5, 2022)

this is brilliant. teams of lawyers were wrong for years but wells got it sussed by googling for 2 mins. awesome.

actually, edit: the biggest shit is a brexit done by saying "we need to leave because of EU rules" when members (including the UK) broke and still break those rules all the time.

oh well. ship/sailed.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 5, 2022)

mojo pixy said:


> this is brilliant. teams of lawyers were wrong for years but wells got it sussed by googling for 2 mins. awesome.
> 
> actually, edit: the biggest shit is a brexit done by saying "we need to leave because of EU rules" when members (including the UK) broke and still break those rules all the time.
> 
> oh well. ship/sailed.


what, carping karl masks is whiny 'awesome' wells? i'm shocked


----------



## two sheds (Sep 5, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> a good man knows his limitations
> --harry callahan


I think you'll find that was Plato


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 5, 2022)

two sheds said:


> I think you'll find that was Plato


thank you for making me check my source - the precise quote is 'a good man always knows his limitations', and it's from harry callahan, 1973. not plato, fuck knows when


----------



## two sheds (Sep 5, 2022)

Plato said everything first


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Sep 5, 2022)

two sheds said:


> Plato said everything first


Including that.

Cheers  - Louis MacNeice


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Sep 5, 2022)

Anyway, surely we can agree that today is a historic day for planet remain to celebrate? Confirmed remain supporters now head up all of the establishment parties. A long overdue return to the established order with experts calling the shots.

Surely, together, they can save us from the Brexshit inflicted upon us by the unwashed sheeple?

Remainers….your time has come!


----------



## Chz (Sep 5, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> True. But to do so would mean the government owned railway competing on the basis of a race to to the bottom of cost savings, attacking terms and conditions, lowering pay etc. Surely you can see why a trade union would be opposed to that?


You're being disingenuous. Why would a fully nationalised railway be any different? Certainly the days of British Rail suggest that they wouldn't be, and SNCF strikes haven't changed a whit since the rules changed in France.


----------



## editor (Sep 5, 2022)

Well this is embarrassing for those Brexit fans



> A Kent brewery chosen to help champion export opportunities for the government after Brexit has revealed that burdensome customs checks and paperwork have left it with just one remaining customer in the EU.
> 
> The Old Dairy Brewery in Kent – a Department for International Trade export champion for the south-east – appeared in a government video last year promoting the potential to boost Brexit export sales.
> 
> ...











						Kent brewery hailed as Brexit ‘export champion’ has one EU customer left
					

The Old Dairy Brewery, named in a government video, has seen sales slump because of excessive paperwork




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## editor (Sep 5, 2022)

Chz said:


> You're being disingenuous. Why would a fully nationalised railway be any different?.


Well, they wouldn't be wasting so much money on exec golden handshakes, endless rebranding and endless cash and asset-sucking franchises, for starters.


----------



## Karl Masks (Sep 5, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I do not believe that there are any credible sources that lend credence to any suggestion that the best way to facilitate the re-nationalisation of key sections of the national economy was best achieved by remining in the neo-liberal EU.


I asked you for credible sources. You have a position, that exiting the EU was the right thing to do. So what source convinced you that, wrt to nationalisation specifically, would only be possible if we left.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 5, 2022)

Chz said:


> You're being disingenuous. Why would a fully nationalised railway be any different? Certainly the days of British Rail suggest that they wouldn't be, and SNCF strikes haven't changed a whit since the rules changed in France.


back in the days of british rail proper you could get kippers for breakfast on the train. Mrs Miggins take note


----------



## Chz (Sep 5, 2022)

editor said:


> Well, they wouldn't be wasting so much money on exec golden handshakes, endless rebranding and endless cash and asset-sucking franchises, for starters.


You missed the OP, which was about a government owned railway competing in an "open" market, the way it's done in France. 
Though I would point out that, despite being 100% government owned, SNCF still has stupidly paid executives, endless rebranding, and a load of franchises that mostly _make_ money.


----------



## Karl Masks (Sep 5, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Anyway, surely we can agree that today is a historic day for planet remain to celebrate? Confirmed remain supporters now head up all of the establishment parties. A long overdue return to the established order with experts calling the shots.
> 
> Surely, together, they can save us from the Brexshit inflicted upon us by the unwashed sheeple?
> 
> Remainers….your time has come!View attachment 341095View attachment 341096View attachment 341097View attachment 341101


Why are you trying to smear people that support remaining? This is idiotic


----------



## two sheds (Sep 5, 2022)

Surely any rail contract could specify minimum pay and conditions for the workforce to even up the 'competition'.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 5, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> Why are you trying to smear people that support remaining? This is idiotic


the shit you're smearing on people that supported remaining is far worse than anything Smokeandsteam has smeared anyone with


----------



## TopCat (Sep 5, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> still never called you a racist
> 
> 
> feel free to fuck off to


It's marginally better than the usual schtick on this thread of just posting up shit  memes and adoration for the EU. Keep fucking each other off please.


----------



## editor (Sep 5, 2022)

Chz said:


> You missed the OP, which was about a government owned railway competing in an "open" market, the way it's done in France.
> Though I would point out that, despite being 100% government owned, SNCF still has stupidly paid executives, endless rebranding, and a load of franchises that mostly _make_ money.


Want to compare fares with the UK?


----------



## Chz (Sep 5, 2022)

editor said:


> Want to compare fares with the UK?


My post was very much in favour of an SNCF model. Where Smokeandsteam and I disagreed is that he feels a _fully _nationalised railway - eg a department for Rail - would be less wasteful than an SNCF style arrangement. I vehemently disagree, given British Rail's glorious past. It's all about whether EU rules allow for a _sufficiently_ nationalised railway, and some feel that the French model doesn't measure up.

No one, at any time, has suggested that the current mess in the UK is a good model. You're arguing with phantoms.


----------



## editor (Sep 5, 2022)

Chz said:


> I vehemently disagree, given British Rail's glorious past.


Not sure if you're being sarcastic, but British Rail was actually a reasonably efficient railway, hampered by underfunding and poor decisions.



			https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0155998214000416
		






__





						Subscribe to read | Financial Times
					

News, analysis and comment from the Financial Times, the worldʼs leading global business publication




					www.ft.com


----------



## Chz (Sep 5, 2022)

editor said:


> Not sure if you're being sarcastic, but British Rail was actually a reasonably efficient railway, hampered by underfunding and poor decisions.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Exactly! It was suggested that a private, but government-owned railway would be a race to the bottom - but that's exactly what British Rail was. Much like TfL, they performed seeming miracles on limited funds, but they were constantly under spending pressure.


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 5, 2022)

two sheds said:


> Plato said everything first


Edith Piaf said it better than me


----------



## bimble (Sep 5, 2022)

Man’s a genius, brexit flavoured gin in red white and blue, only available from farage’s own website hurry while stocks last etc.


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 5, 2022)

bimble said:


> Man’s a genius, brexit flavoured gin in red white and blue, only available from farage’s own website hurry while stocks last etc.



There's some interesting tittle tattle behind this from a Twitter account 
C:\
@BryceElder

I'll summarise their tweets for  posters are not on Twitter 

The gin is made by a company called Cornish Rock who by chance were already making the same gin, in the same colours in the same bottles before our Nige threw his dosh in . 









						Cornish Rock Blue Angel Gin
					

A deep blue hue is unmistakably present in this gin, which is followed to a recipe of traditional botanicals.




					www.southwestspirits.co.uk
				





The company are owned by Angie and George Malde who previously were racehorse owners who had several winners 









						An Interview with Former Owners George and Angie Malde
					

George and Angie Malde had a lot of fun owning several successful racehorses. These include dual Welsh National winner Bonanza Boy who, when trained by the great Martin Pipe, also won 1989 Racing Post Chase, Rehearsal Chase and a 1991 Midland Grand National. He contested five Grand Nationals...




					www.overthestabledoor.com
				






and before that ran a clothing business subject to conviction and fines  



The back of the bottle on the advert says "Baxter Laois Limited" (called "LF Consultancy Services" until Feb 2022). It's a micro company wholly owned by Farage's French long-term girlfriend Laure Ferrari.)


----------



## Yossarian (Sep 5, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Confirmed remain supporters now head up all of the establishment parties.



Voting Leave to shake up the political establishment is going well than I see.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 6, 2022)

Here you go friends of the Brexit; Furry Frank's clan bigging up the High Priest of the sacred will-o-the-people!


----------



## ska invita (Sep 6, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> The back of the bottle on the advert says "Baxter Laois Limited"


an anagram of Male Brexit Idealist...coincidence?


----------



## A380 (Sep 6, 2022)

Here’s a benefit, To Chinese sticker makers.


----------



## teqniq (Sep 8, 2022)

And he's off! I put it here as there's not really anywhere else suitable, fucking loon:


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 8, 2022)

teqniq said:


> And he's off! I put it here as there's not really anywhere else suitable, fucking loon:



Here's up the rebels, get back our teddy's head


----------



## gosub (Sep 11, 2022)

teqniq said:


> And he's off! I put it here as there's not really anywhere else suitable, fucking loon:



Good luck  Eire, bailing out Italy,Greece, Portugal et al (again).  Commission will most likely be as proactive as they were on the covid vaccine malarkey 

Could go either way I think, next  debacle  most likely lead to an exit mech for the EUro or tax harmonizing in return for Germany holding sway on foreign policy.


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 11, 2022)

gosub said:


> Good luck  Eire, bailing out Italy,Greece, Portugal et al (again).  Commission will most likely be as proactive as they were on the covid vaccine malarkey
> 
> Could go either way I think, next  debacle  most likely lead to an exit mech for the EUro or tax harmonizing in return for Germany holding sway on foreign policy.


What is it within the EU that makes their southern states such a target for mockery ?


----------



## gosub (Sep 11, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> What is it within the EU that makes their southern states such a target for mockery ?


Balance sheets


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 11, 2022)

gosub said:


> Balance sheets


Balance sheets and the EU  regulations are a big issue for the EU but why the mockery ?


----------



## gosub (Sep 11, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Balance sheets and the EU  regulations are a big issue for the EU but why the mockery ?


It's not mockery....but looking like there may be global shortages of magic and moonlight this winter


----------



## Ax^ (Sep 11, 2022)

mean while the improvement for workers right in the uk  increases at a pace since leave the eu


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 11, 2022)

gosub said:


> It's not mockery....but looking like there may be global shortages of magic and moonlight this winter


That’s a situation I’m sure everyone would want to avoid


----------



## gosub (Sep 11, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> That’s a situation I’m sure everyone would want to avoid


Bit late now


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 11, 2022)

gosub said:


> Bit late now


Lack of forward planning ?


----------



## gosub (Sep 11, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Lack of forward planning ?


Chaotic events, can kicking, wishful thinking, you name it. Perfect storm (maybe) 

But in relation to Eire -you bail out southern EU states (again) in exchange for tax harmonization and common German led foreign policy. Doesn't sound like much of a deal to me


----------



## two sheds (Sep 11, 2022)

I thought one idea behind the EU was for the richer northern nations to subsidize the southern nations somewhat?


----------



## gosub (Sep 11, 2022)

two sheds said:


> I thought one idea behind the EU was for the richer northern nations to subsidize the southern nations somewhat?


Tis (though grudgingly it seems)


----------



## two sheds (Sep 13, 2022)

two sheds said:


> yes can't argue with that, the continental ones are shite.
> 
> eta as in really difficult to wire up


talking of which I got one of these:



fucking great idea, the plug's really stable as opposed to the two-pin plug wobbling around precariously in a socket.


----------



## T & P (Sep 13, 2022)

two sheds said:


> talking of which I got one of these:
> 
> View attachment 342579
> 
> fucking great idea, the plug's really stable as opposed to the two-pin plug wobbling around precariously in a socket.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 15, 2022)

An additional €140 bn in windfall taxes on the energy corps in the supra state, while the UK Government has taken back control to tax us £200 bn to gift to the energy companies.

 And the doubters say there are no brexit benefits?


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 15, 2022)

Ironically part of the debate for the EU's position on an energy windfall tax was that Spain, Italy, and the UK ( under Johnson)  had already imposed them.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Sep 15, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Ironically part of the debate for the EU's position on an energy windfall tax was that Spain, Italy, and the UK ( under Johnson)  had already imposed them.


Johnson’s tax was 25% of profits, but they can write off 91p of every £1 invested in fossil fuel extraction.


----------



## Ax^ (Sep 15, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Ironically part of the debate for the EU's position on an energy windfall tax was that Spain, Italy, and the UK ( under Johnson)  had already imposed them.



not sure what that ironic about it sounds like a solid plan the EU one that is


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 15, 2022)




----------



## Artaxerxes (Sep 15, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> mean while the improvement for workers right in the uk  increases at a pace since leave the eu




This is from a 2013 speech


----------



## Ax^ (Sep 15, 2022)

which part?

plus he not changed his mind 

11 times Rees-Mogg revealed what he thinks about your rights


----------



## gosub (Sep 15, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> which part?
> 
> plus he not changed his mind
> 
> 11 times Rees-Mogg revealed what he thinks about your rights


Careful now.  Urban seems full of people complaining about having a bank holiday.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Sep 15, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> not sure what that ironic about it sounds like a solid plan the EU one that is



Good to see the support on here for the ECB and unelected Commissioners after they bravely announce a 'plan'.


----------



## Ax^ (Sep 15, 2022)

taxing the companies making money from this is better than add 200 billion to the UK debt and asking working people to pay it back

anyone would think Lizzie used to work for BP


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Sep 15, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> taxing the companies making money from this is better than add 200 billion to the UK debt and asking working people to pay it back
> 
> anyone would think Lizzie used to work for BP



Don't disagree, but the EU haven't actually taxed anyone yet. As for the UK Government its plan is to discuss wholesale prices with suppliers and fix a lower rate. We haven't adopted that approach because we've left the EU, its because we voted for a Tory Government. Labour has already committed to a windfall tax. 

But do not let that stop the full throated support for the ECB and the unelected EU Commissioners.


----------



## Maggot (Sep 15, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Good to see the support on here for the ECB and unelected Commissioners after they bravely announce a 'plan'.


It's a much better plan than the one our unelected Prime Minister announced.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Sep 15, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Don't disagree, but the EU haven't actually taxed anyone yet. As for the UK Government its plan is to discuss wholesale prices with suppliers and fix a lower rate. We haven't adopted that approach because we've left the EU, its because we voted for a Tory Government. Labour has already committed to a windfall tax.
> 
> But do not let that stop the full throated support for the ECB and the unelected EU Commissioners.


So you mean leaving the EU had no effect on whether we could tax these companies or not?


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Sep 15, 2022)

Maggot said:


> It's a much better plan than the one our unelected Prime Minister announced.



Further admirable support for the ECB and EU Commissioners. I'm heartened to see remainers finally embracing their real political position. Uncritical support for the Kleptocracy was always the logical end point of the psychological move to their own Lubang Island.


----------



## andysays (Sep 15, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> mean while the improvement for workers right in the uk  increases at a pace since leave the eu



Because everyone knows that paid holidays didn't exist until the EU created them


----------



## Yossarian (Sep 15, 2022)

"This EU policy seems better than what the Tories have come up with."

"EUSSR-LOVING REMAINER EXTREMIST ADMITS HE HATES DEMOCRACY"


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Sep 15, 2022)

Yossarian said:


> "This EU policy seems better than what the Tories have come up with."



What a reasonable tone you remainers adopt    Unfortunately, the post didn't say that. It suggested that the fact the EU has a 'plan' that is better than the UK's 'plan' is Brexit related. It isn't. It's tory related.

Another one for the ECB/EU Commissioner Urban supporter club.


----------



## Karl Masks (Sep 15, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> What a reasonable tone you remainers adopt    Unfortunately, the post didn't say that. It suggested that the fact the EU has a 'plan' that is better than the UK's 'plan' is Brexit related. It isn't. It's tory related.
> 
> Another one for the ECB/EU Commissioner Urban supporter club.


You must have known Brexit was going to put the ERG and the like in charge.


----------



## not a trot (Sep 15, 2022)

Artaxerxes said:


> This is from a 2013 speech



Yeah, the cunt was just a lowly backbencher then, dreaming of having some real power.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Sep 15, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> You must have known Brexit was going to put the ERG and the like in charge.



I do not have Nostradamus like qualities, otherwise I'd play the lottery. Who knows, without your type in the Labour Party we could have had Corbyn and McDonnell in charge eh?

ETA: Another EU/ECB fan clubber.


----------



## Ax^ (Sep 15, 2022)

andysays said:


> Because everyone knows that paid holidays didn't exist until the EU created them



aye but the EU not the secretary of state for business ya plank


----------



## ska invita (Sep 15, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> You must have known Brexit was going to put the ERG and the like in charge.


Yeah the political trajectory was Writ Very Large and was literally-physically sickening but the argument at the time was short term pain for long term gain...hold tight riders here we go


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Sep 15, 2022)

ska invita said:


> Yeah the political trajectory was Writ Very Large and was literally-physically sickening but the argument at the time was short term pain for long term gain...hold tight riders here we go



No it wasn't. On both points.


----------



## ska invita (Sep 15, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> No it wasn't. On both points.


if you say so


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Sep 15, 2022)

ska invita said:


> if you say so



What actually happened then says so. At the time the expectation was that Corbyn would win the next election. That's what people were focused on.


----------



## ska invita (Sep 15, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> What actually happened then says so. At the time the expectation was that Corbyn would win the next election. That's what people were focused on.


i told you what happened, lexiters argued here that the long term gains are worth it and if you want to fuck with the system then thats necessary short term pain 

...meanwhile the atmosphere here in London ahead of the referendum was one of racial/ethnic tension driven by explicit waves of Brexit ethnonationalism, felt keenly by those on the sharp end - it was fucking vile and the day after when the shouts of We Voted Leave Now Leave rang out on the streets it was worse than feared. The direction of travel was WRIT LARGE.


----------



## Ax^ (Sep 15, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> No it wasn't.



oh yes it was !!


----------



## teqniq (Sep 15, 2022)

ska invita said:


> i told you what happened, lexiters argued here that the long term gains are worth it and if you want to fuck with the system then thats necessary short term pain
> 
> ...meanwhile the atmosphere here in London ahead of the referendum was one of racial/ethnic tension driven by explicit waves of Brexit ethnonationalism, felt keenly by those on the sharp end - it was fucking vile and the day after when the shouts of We Voted Leave Now Leave rang out on the streets it was worse than feared. The direction of travel was WRIT LARGE.


The pain looks very much to be long-term, particularly with the vermin in charge. Who would have guessed?


----------



## Karl Masks (Sep 15, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> What actually happened then says so. At the time the expectation was that Corbyn would win the next election. That's what people were focused on.


What did you think would have happened had Labour won in 2017 wrt to the effects of Brexit?


----------



## Raheem (Sep 15, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> oh yes it was !!


He's already told you it wasn't!!!


----------



## teqniq (Sep 15, 2022)

Too early for pantomime season innit.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 15, 2022)

teqniq said:


> Too early for pantomime season innit.


oh no it isn't


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Sep 15, 2022)

ska invita said:


> i told you what happened, lexiters argued here that the long term gains are worth it and if you want to fuck with the system then thats necessary short term pain
> 
> ...meanwhile the atmosphere here in London ahead of the referendum was one of racial/ethnic tension driven by explicit waves of Brexit ethnonationalism, felt keenly by those on the sharp end - it was fucking vile and the day after when the shouts of We Voted Leave Now Leave rang out on the streets it was worse than feared. The direction of travel was WRIT LARGE.



I was posting on here at the time. I don’t remember any supporter of leaving the EU argue that.

As for the ‘atmosphere’ in London you report I don’t live there so I can’t say how accurate this latest recollection of yours is. However, the points you initially made and that I replied to were that a) everyone knew the Tories/ERG would be in power and b) that the pro working class leave vote was predicated on ‘short term pain’. As I’ve pointed out you are wrong on both points.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Sep 15, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> What did you think would have happened had Labour won in 2017 wrt to the effects of Brexit?



A tiny, but perceptible, step away from the neo-liberal orthodoxy would have taken place.


----------



## Ax^ (Sep 15, 2022)

the 3 month post brexit vote period had a well documented rise in ethnic tension and a raise in hate crimes quite broadly across the country btw police data backs it up


----------



## sleaterkinney (Sep 15, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> What actually happened then says so. At the time the expectation was that Corbyn would win the next election. That's what people were focused on.


When the brexit vote happened there was zero expectation Corbyn would win the next election. He never won anything, even when he was full brexit.


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 15, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> A tiny, but perceptible, step away from the neo-liberal orthodoxy would have taken place.


Half this board would have been up in arms


----------



## contadino (Sep 15, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I was posting on here at the time. I don’t remember any supporter of leaving the EU argue that.
> 
> As for the ‘atmosphere’ in London you report I don’t live there so I can’t say how accurate this latest recollection of yours is. However, the points you initially made and that I replied to were that a) everyone knew the Tories/ERG would be in power and b) that the pro working class leave vote was predicated on ‘short term pain’. As I’ve pointed out you are wrong on both points.


Just to be clear, a leave vote was a leave vote. A "pro working class leave vote" is something you've made up.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Sep 15, 2022)

More airport chaos today...


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Sep 15, 2022)

contadino said:


> Just to be clear, a leave vote was a leave vote. A "pro working class leave vote" is something you've made up.



I mean by that those on here who supported Brexit. I was replying to a post about what was said by posters on here.


----------



## Raheem (Sep 15, 2022)

sleaterkinney said:


> When the brexit vote happened there was zero expectation Corbyn would win the next election. He never won anything, even when he was full brexit.


If Corbyn had won there would have been a second referendum.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Sep 15, 2022)

If Corbyn had won half the PLP would have quit and the government collapsed


----------



## contadino (Sep 15, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I mean by that those on here who supported Brexit. I was replying to a post about what was said by posters on here.


No. There were only two options and "pro working class leave" wasn't one of them. Attributing the same fallacy to others doesn't make it valid.

What you're actually doing is trying to justify voting with Gove, Johnson and Farage.


----------



## Karl Masks (Sep 15, 2022)

i'm not sure the working class did swing brexit 









						Brexit was not the voice of the working class nor of the uneducated – it was of the squeezed middle
					

Lorenza Antonucci, Laszlo Horvath, and André Krouwel challenge the popular view of Leave voters as those left behind educationally and financially. They explain why it is individuals from an interm…




					blogs.lse.ac.uk


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 15, 2022)

Artaxerxes said:


> If Corbyn had won half the PLP would have quit and the government collapsed


Flesh this scenario out a bit more please ,its   interesting.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Sep 15, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Flesh this scenario out a bit more please ,its   interesting.



Imagine the TIG group but substantially larger, probably a law suit to try and get the Labour brand and a few crossing the aisle to the Lib Dems.

Corbyn winning throws up all sort of interesting quirks of behaviour, I suspect more than a few MPs couldn’t stomach it.


----------



## mojo pixy (Sep 15, 2022)

contadino said:


> No. There were only two options and "pro working class leave" wasn't one of them. Attributing the same fallacy to others doesn't make it valid.
> 
> What you're actually doing is trying to justify voting with Gove, Johnson and Farage.


There was no clean way to vote though. Voting Remain sided with other fuckers who don't care about me / us .. obviously there was 'abstain' but the more of those there were, the more motivated side (IMO that was Leave) had to gain the advantage. Arguably it was abstainers that pushed it the way it went - but there are a load of reasons people abstained so no way to know how it'd have been different if everyone eligible to vote had done so, one way or the other.


----------



## Raheem (Sep 15, 2022)

Surely abstainers can't have pushed it one way or the other, any more than people who voted leave but could have voted remain if their opinion were different.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Sep 15, 2022)

The ref saw a higher turnout than any vote in recent history so this is one that I’m more  than happy to not count abstainers or lack of turnout as an issue.


----------



## contadino (Sep 15, 2022)

mojo pixy said:


> There was no clean way to vote though. Voting Remain sided with other fuckers who don't care about me / us .. obviously there was 'abstain' but the more of those there were, the more motivated side (IMO that was Leave) had to gain the advantage. Arguably it was abstainers that pushed it the way it went - but there are a load of reasons people abstained so no way to know how it'd have been different if everyone eligible to vote had done so, one way or the other.


Sorry to be the person to break it to you, but whenever you vote, you're voting for someone who doesn't care about you. They only care about your vote.

In this instance it was fucking obvious what a leave win would herald and it wasn't ever gonna be pro working class.


----------



## mojo pixy (Sep 15, 2022)

contadino said:


> Sorry to be the person to break it to you, but whenever you vote, you're voting for someone who doesn't care about you. They only care about your vote.
> 
> In this instance it was fucking obvious what a leave win would herald and it wasn't ever gonna be pro working class.


Well, you're not the person to break it to me so no need to apologize.

As far as I gathered, there was some weird radicalistic (made up word) undercurrent that sounded like, vote leave -> hypercapitalist shitstorm -> social unrest -> fundamental systemic change

I always thought it was a shit plan but I didn't vote Leave.


----------



## mojo pixy (Sep 15, 2022)

I think my opinion was and is still, Remain is a shit sandwich and Leave is a diarrhoea sandwich. Take your pick.

I'd have put that in a spoiler but this thread doesn't deserve such courtesy


----------



## Ax^ (Sep 15, 2022)

Artaxerxes said:


> The ref saw a higher turnout than any vote in recent history so this is one that I’m more  than happy to not count abstainers or lack of turnout as an issue.



it carried one of the highest turn out in history due to a massive press campaign by forces on the right for years
then coupled with the idea that it was a one in a life time chance to make your opinion mean something

giving people the idea that voting for something changes the political landscape and changes it is quite powerful


the leave Campaign tactics are quite similar to how trump got elected

the bullshite that it was for political change when all it did was reinforce the same political system  is quite telling as well


----------



## Artaxerxes (Sep 15, 2022)

Sure, won’t deny any of that but there’s a frequent defence of “well not everyone voted” that’s more hollow about this than the usual elections.

The reason all the polling companies fucked up is that a great many people who hadn’t voted for years actually turned out again to say fuck you, whether that was to Davey Cameron or Farage


----------



## Yossarian (Sep 15, 2022)

mojo pixy said:


> I think my opinion was and is still, Remain is a shit sandwich and Leave is a diarrhoea sandwich. Take your pick.
> 
> I'd have put that in a spoiler but this thread doesn't deserve such courtesy



Good analogy - the shit sandwich is obviously extremely unappealing, being a literal shit sandwich, while the latter option would be unable to even maintain its integrity as a sandwich and would fall apart into a shitty mess.


----------



## Ax^ (Sep 15, 2022)

Artaxerxes said:


> Sure, won’t deny any of that but there’s a frequent defence of “well not everyone voted” that’s more hollow about this than the usual elections.
> 
> The reason all the polling companies fucked up is that a great many people who hadn’t voted for years actually turned out again to say fuck you, whether that was to Davey Cameron or Farage




i agree my da never vote in his life but he was 60 and has been mumbling on about to many different races taking over the building game for years


he did not like me point out to him that we only moved to England in the 90's oddly enough


----------



## mojo pixy (Sep 15, 2022)

Raheem said:


> Surely abstainers can't have pushed it one way or the other, any more than people who voted leave but could have voted remain if their opinion were different.





Artaxerxes said:


> The ref saw a higher turnout than any vote in recent history so this is one that I’m more  than happy to not count abstainers or lack of turnout as an issue.



The margin was <4% and >25%of the electorate didn't vote. There's no way to know what difference 100% participation could have made but from the conversations and arguments I had at the time it seemed people who wanted to Leave, they voted. People who _wanted_ to Remain, they voted. I believe based on nothing but my inelegant braining that the majority of people who didn't vote didn't particularly want to leave but either 1. didn't care enough to bother voting Remain (despite IMO tacitly supporting Remain as the status quo position lol jokes about status quo) or 2. assumed Leave could never win because it was dumb racists etc. I knew a few like this.

It's done, and these are reckons, and I'm not blaming anyone for anything.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Sep 15, 2022)

contadino said:


> No. There were only two options and "pro working class leave" wasn't one of them. Attributing the same fallacy to others doesn't make it valid.
> 
> What you're actually doing is trying to justify voting with Gove, Johnson and Farage.



I’ve already explained the statement and the _context _in which is was used. I wasn’t ‘attributing’ anything to anyone. I was pointing out that what Ska attributed to some posters was wide of the mark.

And given you voted with Blair, Cameron, Truss, Starmer, Sturgeon, Davey, the members of the CBI and the IoD and the detritus of celebland you are barking up the wrong tree there pal.

Being gratingly pompous and erroneously pedantic is par for the course on planet remain I know, but you seem to be suffering from a particular severe strain of the condition.


----------



## _Russ_ (Sep 16, 2022)

Watched about 3 quarters of the EU state of the Union address yesterday, good example of how the centre left can sometimes be almost as good at spouting bollox as the right but without actually admitting it to them selves (straight faced  through the whole spiel). The main difference being the right are often quite aware that they are talking bollox but dont care due to being cunts.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 16, 2022)

_Russ_ said:


> Watched about 3 quarters of the EU state of the Union address yesterday, good example of how the centre left can sometimes be almost as good at spouting bollox as the right but without actually admitting it to them selves (straight faced  through the whole spiel). The main difference being the right are often quite aware that they are talking bollox but dont care due to being cunts.


says the man who speaks of the power of the jewish lobby in the united states


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 16, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I’ve already explained the statement and the _context _in which is was used. I wasn’t ‘attributing’ anything to anyone. I was pointing out that what Ska attributed to some posters was wide of the mark.
> 
> And given you voted with Blair, Cameron, Truss, Starmer, Sturgeon, Davey, the members of the CBI and the IoD and the detritus of celebland you are barking up the wrong tree there pal.
> 
> Being gratingly pompous and erroneously pedantic is par for the course on planet remain I know, but you seem to be suffering from a particular severe strain of the condition.


tbh no matter how you voted, pretty much no matter how you vote, you'll still be voting on the same side as wankers


----------



## two sheds (Sep 21, 2022)

"is taking" rather than "has taken" but seems relevant to whether EU countries can nationalize 









						Germany nationalises gas giant amid energy crisis
					

The German government is taking a 98.5% stake in Uniper, one of the country's biggest suppliers.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## Ax^ (Sep 21, 2022)

we are all better off giving more  money to the gas provider as it gives us security

not info structurer to store gas within our own borders for crises like this  but security


by the way we going to empty the north sea and start fracking again

making Britain better

 btw bankers are  get bigger bonuses by government decree


----------



## _Russ_ (Sep 21, 2022)

The rest of Europe will increasingly distance themselves from the UK and rightly so


----------



## Yossarian (Sep 21, 2022)

two sheds said:


> "is taking" rather than "has taken" but seems relevant to whether EU countries can nationalize
> 
> 
> 
> ...



#TakingBachControl


----------



## Ax^ (Sep 21, 2022)

_Russ_ said:


> The rest of Europe will increasingly distance themselves from the UK and rightly so



has Europe noticed that  the UK shat it  in its own sandbox over the northern Ireland protocol Russ  

are your worried about prices rises


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 21, 2022)

_Russ_ said:


> The rest of Europe will increasingly distance themselves from the UK and rightly so


Yes, every year the channel widens by a fraction of a metre while the Irish Sea widens by multiples of an inch and the border between the six counties and the neighbouring 26 becomes measurable


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 21, 2022)

two sheds said:


> "is taking" rather than "has taken" but seems relevant to whether EU countries can nationalize
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Not knocking this at all, I think all utility services should be nationalised however isn't this possible under some definition of emergency or crisis?

Speaking of which both the TUC and European Federation of Trade Unions are campaigning separately against threats to remove the right to strike in the UK and EU .( in some EU countries minimum staffing etc is already law) 









						SMEI: Right to strike still not protected
					

The right to strike is still not protected in the European Commission’s proposal for a Single Market Emergency Instrument (SMEI). The ETUC wrote to the Commission earlier this month to raise concerns about their plans to repeal a regulation* which protects the right to strike as part of their...




					www.etuc.org
				




They also covered the demonstrations in Belgium today


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Sep 21, 2022)

gosub said:


> Careful now.  Urban seems full of people complaining about having a bank holiday.


I didn't  have a bank holiday; I had a day taken out of my annual leave as did many other tens/hundreds of thousands of people.

Cheers  - Louis MacNeice


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Sep 21, 2022)

two sheds said:


> "is taking" rather than "has taken" but seems relevant to whether EU countries can nationalize
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Good that they are nationalizing, all utilities and public transport should be. Not sure what that has to do with Brexit though, and it's a bit iffy imposing a maximum temperature that offices may be heated to. Perhaps they need to as Germany has no natural gas of its own and relies on funding slaughter in Ukraine for theirs?


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Sep 21, 2022)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Not sure what that has to do with Brexit though



one of the arguments that was being made from the left for brexit was that being under EU law meant that things like railways couldn't be (re) nationalised.  (think this was one of the main reasons for RMT union being pro brexit)


----------



## brogdale (Sep 21, 2022)

Puddy_Tat said:


> one of the arguments that was being made from the left for brexit was that being under EU law meant that things like railways couldn't be (re) nationalised.  (think this was one of the main reasons for RMT union being pro brexit)


Oh no, don't wake them up...all the Lexit mob will pop up to witter on about the stella legal advice that the RMT paid for.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Sep 21, 2022)

brogdale said:


> the stella legal advice



you're saying the lawyer was pissed?


----------



## inva (Sep 21, 2022)

Puddy_Tat said:


> one of the arguments that was being made from the left for brexit was that being under EU law meant that things like railways couldn't be (re) nationalised.  (think this was one of the main reasons for RMT union being pro brexit)


Surely those arguments were about the nationalisation of whole industries thereby eliminating sacred competition, not governments taking control of individual companies?
This from the article seems to spell out the intention pretty clearly:



			
				German Economy Minister Habeck said:
			
		

> "The state will… do everything necessary to keep companies stable on the market at all times," he said.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Sep 21, 2022)

inva said:


> Surely those arguments were about the nationalisation of whole industries thereby eliminating sacred competition, not governments taking control of individual companies?



that i don't know.

i'm not a lawyer, i'm a cat


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 21, 2022)

brogdale said:


> Oh no, don't wake them up...all the Lexit mob will pop up to witter on about the stella legal advice that the RMT paid for.


anarchists against legal advice


----------



## Maggot (Sep 21, 2022)




----------



## SysOut (Sep 22, 2022)




----------



## SysOut (Sep 22, 2022)




----------



## brogdale (Sep 22, 2022)

The UK government's official view of what a list of Brexit benefits would include:



> The Bill’s introduction will build on the significant progress the government has made since delivering Brexit on 31 January 2020, which include:
> 
> 
> ending free movement and taking back control of our borders – replacing freedom of movement with a points-based immigration system and making it easier to kick out foreign criminals
> ...


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 22, 2022)

SysOut said:


>



Femi ,bless .


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 23, 2022)

Good news boppers Here's something many of you will want to attend


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Sep 23, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Good news boppers Here's something many of you will want to attend




Any news on speakers yet?


----------



## Ax^ (Sep 23, 2022)

the mini budget today

nuff said

here what Tories Brexiters wanted and you voted for it


----------



## ska invita (Sep 28, 2022)

Bloody remainers


----------



## Artaxerxes (Sep 28, 2022)

Whetherspoons flogging off 30 or so pubs so I guess that counts as sunlit uplands


----------



## ska invita (Sep 28, 2022)

Artaxerxes said:


> Whetherspoons flogging off 30 or so pubs so I guess that counts as sunlit uplands


depends who the buyer is


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 28, 2022)

Artaxerxes said:


> Whetherspoons flogging off 30 or so pubs so I guess that counts as sunlit uplands


Every so often they get rid of a load, like the former moon under water in Barnet, the bankers draft in new Southgate, the dog in archway, the tally ho in North finchley and so on


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 28, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Any news on speakers yet?



17 so far and a chair/compere so a  star studded list with a cast of thousands tbh which many remainers on here will enjoy. 

This includes 3 ex MEPs, a bloke who got 1% in the Mayoral elections, a poet, the woman who runs Bremain in Spain, chap who works full time for Scientists for EU, a Lib Dem Baroness, and a former Lib Dem Mayoral candidate now independent. 

Also ex Eastenders star Lord Cashman, the ex physics teacher who now does YouTube videos on economics,  a German Green Party MEP.

I'll post up the rest later


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Sep 28, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> 17 so far and a chair/compere so a  star studded list with a cast of thousands tbh which many remainers on here will enjoy.
> 
> This includes 3 ex MEPs, a bloke who got 1% in the Mayoral elections, a poet, the woman who runs Bremain in Spain, chap who works full time for Scientists for EU, a Lib Dem Baroness, and a former Lib Dem Mayoral candidate now independent.
> 
> ...


----------



## Ax^ (Sep 28, 2022)

ah the brexit paradise of Liz truss first 8 days

when she going to get around to fucking over north Ireland is that set for Friday


----------



## Karl Masks (Sep 28, 2022)

Phil Moorhouse, the youtube sensation, with his centrist answer to everything.

Is that Michael Cashman the same actor that played Colin? I never recognised him from almost 40 years ago. Wild.

Who the fuck any of the rest of them are is anyone's guess, but at least the scientific advisor to the Brothers Gibb is in attendance


----------



## editor (Sep 28, 2022)

Fucking Brexit



> The extra passport checks the UK requested after leaving the EU are “not sustainable”: that is the damning view of Jacques Damas, outgoing chief executive of Eurostar.
> 
> The boss of the cross-Channel train operator revealed that post-Brexit border arrangements have reduced capacity on links from London to Brussels and Paris by one-third – forcing Eurostar “to charge higher prices to our customers”.











						Brexit has cut Eurostar capacity by 30 per cent, says chief executive
					

Capacity at London St Pancras is down by one-third because of extra passport checks – meaning fewer seats and higher fares




					www.independent.co.uk


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 28, 2022)

Main stage :

Lib Dem, ex coin dealer  and full time 'activist'


----------



## ska invita (Sep 28, 2022)

editor said:


> Fucking Brexit
> 
> 
> 
> ...


its pretty crazy in st pancras during any holidays, queuing through the length and then out the station - used to just be little check in lobby bit












fine in term time though


----------



## Ax^ (Sep 28, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Main stage :
> 
> Lib Dem, ex coin dealer  and full time 'activist'
> 
> View attachment 344798



i say most people will be preoccupied with the results of ERG wishes

happy days


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 28, 2022)




----------



## Ax^ (Sep 28, 2022)

just because I want to ask, 

did you even vote in the referendum?


----------



## Yossarian (Sep 28, 2022)

Maybe the bears should fight it out


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 29, 2022)

Headliners :

The second referendum rejoin why sue me champion of Remainderland


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 29, 2022)

and..................

EU Supergirl


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Sep 29, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Headliners :
> 
> The second referendum rejoin why sue me champion of Remainderland
> 
> View attachment 344950



Planet Remain icon.

Surely the fact that him and Bray are on the same platform makes this a must attend for all Remain supporters.

Who’s going?


----------



## brogdale (Sep 29, 2022)

Appears that we Remain in the grip of the financial markets.


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 29, 2022)

Ahh... Now we are getting somewhere!


----------



## philosophical (Oct 3, 2022)

So that cunt Steve Baker is now saying that he and his cunt mates (including in my view all who call themselves lexiters) have been dissing Ireland because of the vote to leave.
Cunts.
They can now redeem themselves by suggesting a practical and workable solution to the land border between the UK and the EU in the light of both the GFA and the vote to leave.
Six fucking years and counting


----------



## MrSki (Oct 3, 2022)

A brewery dubbed Brexit export champion calls in administrators as EU exports dry up.









						News Archives
					

The latest News, Stories and updates about News .




					www.thelondoneconomic.com


----------



## scalyboy (Oct 3, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> Every so often they get rid of a load, like the former moon under water in Barnet, the bankers draft in new Southgate, the dog in archway, the tally ho in North finchley and so on


I miss the Bankers Draft; cheap beer and a good place to watch football; it's astonishing and sad that there are hardly any pubs in the area any more. When I moved there - admittedly a couple of decades years ago - there were 3 or 4 pubs within 10 mins walking distance, my neighbours can remember even more... the only ones round there I can think of still remaining are the Irish pub opposite the Catholic church and the Arnos Arms, both near Arnos Grove tube. The Bankers Draft building is still boarded up, as is the York Arms on Oakleigh Road, the other one (Rising Sun IIRC?) became a Tesco Metro years ago 

Do you know what became of the Tally Ho ?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 3, 2022)

scalyboy said:


> I miss the Bankers Draft; cheap beer and a good place to watch football; it's astonishing and sad that there are hardly any pubs in the area any more. When I moved there - admittedly a couple of decades years ago - there were 3 or 4 pubs within 10 mins walking distance, my neighbours can remember even more... the only ones round there I can think of still remaining are the Irish pub opposite the Catholic church and the Arnos Arms, both near Arnos Grove tube. The Bankers Draft building is still boarded up, as is the York Arms on Oakleigh Road, the other one (Rising Sun IIRC?) became a Tesco Metro years ago
> 
> Do you know what became of the Tally Ho ?


it's been more than a year since i went to north finchley  but the tarty whore is still there, under new colours https://www.greatukpubs.co.uk/tallyholondon sadly the auld coach stop is lost and gone forever

back in the glory days of new southgate i went to a few parties at the turrets - had my 19th there, in the dim and distant past


----------



## teuchter (Oct 3, 2022)

MrSki said:


> A brewery dubbed Brexit export champion calls in administrators as EU exports dry up.
> 
> 
> 
> ...






> She said the brewery’s one remaining EU customer had faced multiple challenges. She said: “The first time he came over, we were up all night trying to get him through customs at Dover and out of the country.
> 
> 
> “He was stuck because of the paperwork. He used to come over for just one night, but now it takes four days because of all the problems.”




Sounds like quite a big Brexit Boost for Kent hoteliers with trade up by at least 300%.


----------



## contadino (Oct 3, 2022)

teuchter said:


> Sounds like quite a big Brexit Boost for Kent hoteliers with trade up by at least 300%.


...then down to zero.


----------



## Chz (Oct 3, 2022)

MrSki said:


> A brewery dubbed Brexit export champion calls in administrators as EU exports dry up.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


To be fair, I'm not sure of their business acumen if they expected trade barriers to _increase_ the amount they exported. Sounds like they were doomed to eventual failure anyhow if that's the way they run things.


----------



## contadino (Oct 3, 2022)

Chz said:


> To be fair, I'm not sure of their business acumen if they expected trade barriers to _increase_ the amount they exported. Sounds like they were doomed to eventual failure anyhow if that's the way they run things.


So to play the Brexit Bonus game........Brexit has increased the average level of business acumen by making previously profitable companies bankrupt. That's almost good enough to put on the side of a bus.


----------



## scalyboy (Oct 3, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> it's been more than a year since i went to north finchley  but the tarty whore is still there, under new colours https://www.greatukpubs.co.uk/tallyholondon sadly the auld coach stop is lost and gone forever
> 
> back in the glory days of new southgate i went to a few parties at the turrets - had my 19th there, in the dim and distant past


I find memory of landscape is a strange thing (and I don't mean my failing memory due to ageing); when I moved there, and for some years thereafter, the Turrets was a notable landmark, although closed by the time I was there, I think. Now it's been demolished I can't quite place where it used to be - there's a newish Co-Op around there that _may_ have been built on the site... even more strange is a new development of no doubt unaffordable flats up at Whetstone next to Barclays - these flats have only gone up in the last year or two _but I cannot for the life of me_ recall what was there before, despite having walked or bussed past there many, many times. 

I guess it's only if there was some memorable or distinctive building there previously (like the Turrets, or the interesting old junk / antique shop where Whetstone Boots now is, or the odd little Victorian fireman's hut, also at Whetstone) that I _don't_ feel like the current building has always been there - even though I know it hasn't always been IYSWIM. 
Another example would be that other new development of unaffordable flats where the old Sweets Way council / HA flats were; I only remember them because of the campaign to save them and prevent its tenants from being forcibly rehoused - high-profile (but unfortunately unsuccessful) campaign in the local and London press, with big banners outside


----------



## angusmcfangus (Oct 3, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> it's been more than a year since i went to north finchley  but the tarty whore is still there, under new colours https://www.greatukpubs.co.uk/tallyholondon sadly the auld coach stop is lost and gone forever
> 
> back in the glory days of new southgate i went to a few parties at the turrets - had my 19th there, in the dim and distant past


Pickman's was the coach stop the cricketers?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 3, 2022)

angusmcfangus said:


> Pickman's was the coach stop the cricketers?


I think so,  it was right by the end of the old bus station


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 3, 2022)

scalyboy said:


> I find memory of landscape is a strange thing (and I don't mean my failing memory due to ageing); when I moved there, and for some years thereafter, the Turrets was a notable landmark, although closed by the time I was there, I think. Now it's been demolished I can't quite place where it used to be - there's a newish Co-Op around there that _may_ have been built on the site... even more strange is a new development of no doubt unaffordable flats up at Whetstone next to Barclays - these flats have only gone up in the last year or two _but I cannot for the life of me_ recall what was there before, despite having walked or bussed past there many, many times.
> 
> I guess it's only if there was some memorable or distinctive building there previously (like the Turrets, or the interesting old junk / antique shop where Whetstone Boots now is, or the odd little Victorian fireman's hut, also at Whetstone) that I _don't_ feel like the current building has always been there - even though I know it hasn't always been IYSWIM.
> Another example would be that other new development of unaffordable flats where the old Sweets Way council / HA flats were; I only remember them because of the campaign to save them and prevent its tenants from being forcibly rehoused - high-profile (but unfortunately unsuccessful) campaign in the local and London press, with big banners outside


The turrets just the new Southgate side of the bridge, on the north side of the road. There was the auld butchers pub on the west side of the road in whetstone. Think the Swan and pyramids gone now too, got chucked out of lock in there once, didn't realise it was a cop pub till we were in


----------



## angusmcfangus (Oct 3, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> The turrets just the new Southgate side of the bridge, on the north side of the road. There was the auld butchers pub on the west side of the road in whetstone. Think the Swan and pyramids gone now too, got chucked out of lock in there once, didn't realise it was a cop pub till we were in


The ex landlady of the Swan and pyramid is sitting with me now, reckons it was never an old bill haunt.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 3, 2022)

angusmcfangus said:


> The ex landlady of the Swan and pyramid is sitting with me now, reckons it was never an old bill haunt.


How ex? This was round 91


----------



## brogdale (Oct 14, 2022)

So the markets can change political programmes & governments they don't like with credit strikes...funny how they never flickered over Brexit, innit?


----------



## Raheem (Oct 14, 2022)

brogdale said:


> So the markets can change political programmes & governments they don't like with credit strikes...funny how they never flickered over Brexit, innit?


Rivers can drown people, but Thatcher died of old age.

Markets don't think about what they are doing.

(Also, is a "credit strike" an actual thing?)


----------



## brogdale (Oct 14, 2022)

Raheem said:


> Markets don't think about what they are doing.


Yes & no.
The players that make up 'the markets' know what they're prepared to lend to or not and at what price. The numbers suggest that collectively they don't want to lend cheaply to the Truss project...but they were OK with the Brexit project. Just saying.


----------



## Raheem (Oct 14, 2022)

brogdale said:


> Yes & no.
> The players that make up 'the markets' know what they're prepared to lend to or not and at what price. The numbers suggest that collectively they don't want to lend cheaply to the Truss project...but they were OK with the Brexit project. Just saying.


It's not whether they want to, as in whether they approve or not, it's what risk they would be taking. Truss effectively declared she would like the government to be structurally insolvent, which unsurprisingly had an effect on the cost of government borrowing.


----------



## MrSki (Oct 15, 2022)

I've found one!


----------



## bimble (Oct 15, 2022)

scalyboy said:


> I find memory of landscape is a strange thing (and I don't mean my failing memory due to ageing); when I moved there, and for some years thereafter, the Turrets was a notable landmark, although closed by the time I was there, I think. Now it's been demolished I can't quite place where it used to be - there's a newish Co-Op around there that _may_ have been built on the site... even more strange is a new development of no doubt unaffordable flats up at Whetstone next to Barclays - these flats have only gone up in the last year or two _but I cannot for the life of me_ recall what was there before, despite having walked or bussed past there many, many times.
> 
> I guess it's only if there was some memorable or distinctive building there previously (like the Turrets, or the interesting old junk / antique shop where Whetstone Boots now is, or the odd little Victorian fireman's hut, also at Whetstone) that I _don't_ feel like the current building has always been there - even though I know it hasn't always been IYSWIM.
> Another example would be that other new development of unaffordable flats where the old Sweets Way council / HA flats were; I only remember them because of the campaign to save them and prevent its tenants from being forcibly rehoused - high-profile (but unfortunately unsuccessful) campaign in the local and London press, with big banners outside


The Sweets Way estate, thats where my primary school was, next door, and about half of the kids at the school lived there, all army families i think. I haven't thought about it much since never been back but your post just made me go and have a look, on the google streetview, where nothing at all is left of the landscape it's all completely new too-clean fake looking houses. Every piece of what i remember compulsory purchased and demolished. Well that was disturbing, uncanny. So thanks for that.


----------



## ska invita (Oct 16, 2022)

I thought this was a good line




now it looks like its the morning after and despite feeling a bit rough Brexits on the phone trying to score some crack - amazing piece in the Telegraph ("Tories ‘risk voter desertion’ if Liz Truss drops post-Brexit pledges") archive.ph



strong drugs


----------



## Rob Ray (Oct 18, 2022)

This is a long (and obviously FT is a pro-EU partisan) but very damning analysis of the broad economic impact of Brexit taking into account the situation of comparable nations. A lot of the complaints from companies about difficulties with sending stuff in and out ring bells with what what we've been seeing Freedom, for example, where even though books aren't supposed to attract the same taxes we regularly get stuff sent back from the likes of Germany and Greece. 



A particularly interesting part notes that Britain's trade intensity has bottomed out against the rest of the G7. This is important because Britain's economy is (has been) one of the most trade intensive in the world, and obv increased trade opportunities was one of the supposed selling points of the Leave campaign.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 18, 2022)

one of the benefits of brexit, from an eu point of view, is no longer having to put up with a superannuated arse being sent to brussels to be the british eu commissioner


----------



## Maggot (Oct 18, 2022)

brogdale said:


> So the markets can change political programmes & governments they don't like with credit strikes...funny how they never flickered over Brexit, innit?


They did


----------



## brogdale (Oct 18, 2022)

Maggot said:


> They did
> View attachment 347690


Good point, well illustrated.
In defence, I'd say I was thinking more about the bond (gilt) markets.


----------



## Jimmy Don't (Oct 18, 2022)

scalyboy said:


> I miss the Bankers Draft; cheap beer and a good place to watch football; it's astonishing and sad that there are hardly any pubs in the area any more. When I moved there - admittedly a couple of decades years ago - there were 3 or 4 pubs within 10 mins walking distance, my neighbours can remember even more... the only ones round there I can think of still remaining are the Irish pub opposite the Catholic church and the Arnos Arms, both near Arnos Grove tube. The Bankers Draft building is still boarded up, as is the York Arms on Oakleigh Road, the other one (Rising Sun IIRC?) became a Tesco Metro years ago
> 
> Do you know what became of the Tally Ho ?


Molly's is the Irish pub, was The Letrim Inn. The Rising Sun is long gone, as is The Woodman that was a little further down the road. The Cavalier on Russell Lane survives and has taken on the few regulars from when The York closed last year.

The best pub for miles around was Toolans on North Finchley High Road for decades, but it's gone rapidly down hill since Nancy Toolan sold it a few years back. The Bohemia was next best and is probably Finchley's finest now. I heartily reccomend their 'Wings Wednesday'.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 20, 2022)

Some visible post-Brexit trade numbers:



Boo to that anti-growth coalition...tofu, blah, blah


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 20, 2022)

brogdale said:


> Some visible post-Brexit trade numbers:
> 
> View attachment 347931
> 
> Boo to that anti-growth coalition...tofu, blah, blah


I was surprised it was just 16%


----------



## brogdale (Oct 20, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> I was surprised it was just 16%


20% the other way round.


----------



## bluescreen (Oct 20, 2022)

brogdale said:


> Some visible post-Brexit trade numbers:
> 
> View attachment 347931
> 
> Boo to that anti-growth coalition...tofu, blah, blah


Brexit benefits, though...


----------



## bimble (Oct 20, 2022)

I wonder what sort of EU made things they are, that there's 20% less of here now. Hope its not cheese.


----------



## teqniq (Oct 20, 2022)




----------



## ska invita (Oct 20, 2022)

brogdale said:


> Some visible post-Brexit trade numbers:
> 
> View attachment 347931
> 
> Boo to that anti-growth coalition...tofu, blah, blah


yeah but wages are going up!


----------



## brogdale (Oct 20, 2022)

ska invita said:


> yeah but wages are going up!


investment bankers' wages


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 20, 2022)

now lad if their is anything for the lexit to start

its now

GO GO GO....


----------



## Yossarian (Oct 21, 2022)

A few good lines in here, including "Since Brexit, Britain’s Conservative leaders have worked tirelessly to prove that EU membership was very far from the problem.”









						EU media and leaders blame Brexit for UK political ‘insanity’ as Truss quits
					

Observers suggest PM’s failure could spell end of ‘wishful thinking’ of a sovereign UK going its own way




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## ska invita (Oct 22, 2022)

Brexit isnt going away is it....rejoiners marching....swivel eyed complaining about remainer coups....irish border still unresovled....on it goes....


----------



## Karl Masks (Oct 22, 2022)

The James O Brien Brigade


----------



## gosub (Oct 22, 2022)

brogdale said:


> investment bankers' wages


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 22, 2022)

ska invita said:


> Brexit isnt going away is it....rejoiners marching....swivel eyed complaining about remainer coups....irish border still unresovled....on it goes....



still not as daft as twats in the Tory party trying to bring back Boris


----------



## gosub (Oct 22, 2022)

brogdale said:


> investment bankers' wages


No they are going down.  Lower wage, lower redundancy payment..Its bonuses for that are going up...oh and tax on banks...



			https://money.usnews.com/investing/news/articles/2022-10-21/eu-proposes-matching-uk-move-to-boost-dark-share-trading-documents-show


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 22, 2022)

ska invita said:


> Brexit isnt going away is it....rejoiners marching....swivel eyed complaining about remainer coups....irish border still unresovled....on it goes....


Be interested to hear a report back from the  continuity remain activists on here


----------



## ska invita (Oct 22, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> still not as daft as twats in the Tory party trying to bring back Boris


i dont particularly see it as daft, more an interesting phenomenon that brexit will rumble on and on for years to come yet


----------



## gosub (Oct 22, 2022)

ska invita said:


> i dont particularly see it as daft, more an interesting phenomenon that brexit will rumble on and on for years to come yet


Events though!

Not the only (or defining) elephant in the room!


----------



## scalyboy (Oct 22, 2022)

Jimmy Don't said:


> Molly's is the Irish pub, was The Letrim Inn. The Rising Sun is long gone, as is The Woodman that was a little further down the road. The Cavalier on Russell Lane survives and has taken on the few regulars from when The York closed last year.
> 
> The best pub for miles around was Toolans on North Finchley High Road for decades, but it's gone rapidly down hill since Nancy Toolan sold it a few years back. The Bohemia was next best and is probably Finchley's finest now. I heartily reccomend their 'Wings Wednesday'.


Thanks for the tip about The Bohemia - just been looking at their menu - a fine selection of beers! It's within walking distance from me too


----------



## Yossarian (Oct 22, 2022)

Looks like a bigger turnout than I would have expected, and it's getting international coverage - while they are of course correct about the failure of Brexit, I'm not sure it that's good an idea to be holding anti-Brexit marches at the moment, especially with one of its chief architects seeking a return to power. The short-term chances of reversing the policy seem to be zero and if Johnson does lead the Tories into the next election, it could be a lifeline in 'Red Wall' seats if he can say 'Kier Starmer wants to help these people take your Brexit away, only I can stop him.'


----------



## Tanya1982 (Oct 22, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Be interested to hear a report back from the  continuity remain activists on here


If you weren't enjoying your freedom of movement on the terrace of your Portuguese home, you could've gone along to have a look for yourself.


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 22, 2022)

it rude to mention the champion of Brexit on the boards whilst he remarks from his Portuguese home


we've yet to confirm if he returned to vote for Brexit whilst applying for a passport in his country of residence  


would not bring it up if it was not for 6 years of bring up the brexit vote btw


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 22, 2022)

Tanya1982 said:


> If you weren't enjoying your freedom of movement on the terrace of your Portuguese home, you could've gone along to have a look for yourself.


Obviously you didn’t go ?


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 22, 2022)

hmm pro Brexit vote protest  have been co oped by racist, antivaxxers , piers Morgan and Steven Yaxley


but its the Remoaners who are the problem


----------



## ska invita (Oct 22, 2022)

Yossarian said:


> Looks like a bigger turnout than I would have expected, and it's getting international coverage - while they are of course correct about the failure of Brexit, I'm not sure it that's good an idea to be holding anti-Brexit marches at the moment, especially with one of its chief architects seeking a return to power. The short-term chances of reversing the policy seem to be zero and if Johnson does lead the Tories into the next election, it could be a lifeline in 'Red Wall' seats if he can say 'Kier Starmer wants to help these people take your Brexit away, only I can stop him.'
> 
> 
> View attachment 348416


That pic looks like 500 people tops, but of course will be extra publicised by those who want to amplify. And on it goes


----------



## Karl Masks (Oct 22, 2022)

ska invita said:


> That pic looks like 500 people tops, but of course will be extra publicised by those who want to amplify. And on it goes


Not sure how much you can tell from one cropped photo, tbf. I'd be surprised if it was that few. But at least that guy from the Bee Gee's is there. It'd be a tragedy if otherwise


----------



## ska invita (Oct 22, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> Not sure how much you can tell from one cropped photo, tbf. I'd be surprised if it was that few. But at least that guy from the Bee Gee's is there. It'd be a tragedy if otherwise


It's the fact it's cropped that makes me suspicious


----------



## Elpenor (Oct 23, 2022)

Some great quotes from the anti-democratic protestors 

Thousands of London protesters call for UK to rejoin EU 

Please spare thoughts and prayers for Tony



> Tony Harold, 44, from Poole, who works in the share market, said that Brexit affected him as he has a property in Spain.
> 
> He said: “We’ve seen the damage and it’s all been downhill ever since it started.
> 
> “Personally, I have a second home in Spain, and I’ve been impacted directly.”


----------



## Tanya1982 (Oct 23, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Obviously you didn’t go ?


I don't march in the streets. Never have. Not my bag.

I was visiting my newly born premature niece anyway.


----------



## ska invita (Oct 23, 2022)

Elpenor said:


> Some great quotes from the anti-democratic protestors


A 4 in the morning point: if you believe in (direct) democracy there's no subject area that doesn't warrant continuous approval and reappraisal from the people. Ive no agenda about Brexit but there's a principle here about extending democracy always. Just because one vote goes one way doesn't mean its set in stone for all time. ( Though there are some things that are big enough that it's ridiculous to keep revoting on within a short time frame).


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 23, 2022)

Tanya1982 said:


> I don't march in the streets. Never have. Not my bag.
> 
> I was visiting my newly born premature niece anyway.


Thought so


----------



## bimble (Oct 23, 2022)

My idiot brexit-voting next door neighbour says he wants to move to Portugal now, I think because it’s the easiest or only place in the EU for getting a residence visa as a Brit, if you’ve got money obvs. If he actually goes that might count as a brexit benefit not sure though.


----------



## Tanya1982 (Oct 23, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Thought so


You thought my brothers baby was born a month premature before I said so? That was remarkably prescient of you, but then Brexiters are gifted like that I suppose.


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 23, 2022)

bimble said:


> My idiot brexit-voting next door neighbour says he wants to move to Portugal now, I think because it’s the easiest or only place in the EU for getting a residence visa as a Brit, if you’ve got money obvs. If he actually goes that might count as a brexit benefit not sure though.


I thought he had a yoga retreat place in France? What happened to your shopkeeper with a second home in Spain?


----------



## bimble (Oct 23, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> I thought he had a yoga retreat place in France? What happened to your shopkeeper with a second home in Spain?


Yes neighbour does have a house in France but he can’t be there more than 90 days in a year now can he. Very sad.
I have to try hard to keep a straight face when he moans about this after he voted for it the big idiot.

Liverpool bookshop man is trying to sell his mobile home in spain , no longer has any hope of moving there to retire / die.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 23, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> still not as daft as twats in the Tory party trying to bring back Boris


Certainly in the daft as a brush category.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 23, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> it rude to mention the champion of Brexit on the boards whilst he remarks from his Portuguese home
> 
> 
> we've yet to confirm if he returned to vote for Brexit whilst applying for a passport in his country of residence
> ...


This is a bit shit even for you.


----------



## Karl Masks (Oct 23, 2022)

Elpenor said:


> Some great quotes from the anti-democratic protestors
> 
> Thousands of London protesters call for UK to rejoin EU
> 
> Please spare thoughts and prayers for Tony


"we want our star back"

and they want to be taken seriously?


----------



## TopCat (Oct 23, 2022)

Tanya1982 said:


> I don't march in the streets. Never have. Not my bag.
> 
> I was visiting my newly born premature niece anyway.


You sit idling on your Portuguese porch, I visit my premature niece. Love it.


----------



## inva (Oct 23, 2022)

TopCat said:


> Certainly in the daft as a brush category.








Pre referendum rally


----------



## TopCat (Oct 23, 2022)

inva said:


> Pre referendum rally


A Venn diagram with that lot and remainers would be droll.


----------



## bimble (Oct 23, 2022)

rejoin rallies look silly and pointless right now but only because it’s too soon, it will almost certainly happen, just not for a while.


----------



## inva (Oct 23, 2022)

TopCat said:


> A Venn diagram with that lot and remainers would be droll.







As we can see the shock of Brexit has really aged them 😟


----------



## inva (Oct 23, 2022)

bimble said:


> rejoin rallies look silly and pointless right now but only because it’s too soon, it will almost certainly happen, just not for a while.
> View attachment 348478


In a similar way to how the Conservative Party is forever on the brink of dying out as ghastly old reactionaries are replaced by lovely young progressives?


----------



## bimble (Oct 23, 2022)

inva said:


> In a similar way to how the Conservative Party is forever on the brink of dying out as ghastly old reactionaries are replaced by lovely young progressives?


I’ve not heard that one before. They will reverse brexit at some point in the future though.  I might not live to see it, or might be cheering feebly from my retirement villa in Italy.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 23, 2022)

inva said:


> As we can see the shock of Brexit has really aged them 😟


It really does look like a, well what is the term for multiple Waitrose shoppers? A March held in London, not a black face amongst them. Lamenting their increased costs for employing cleaners post Brexit.


----------



## Serge Forward (Oct 23, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> Not sure how much you can tell from one cropped photo, tbf. I'd be surprised if it was that few. But at least that guy from the Bee Gee's is there. It'd be a tragedy if otherwise


You can see the back of the march. I'd say about 800.


----------



## rubbershoes (Oct 23, 2022)

Serge Forward said:


> You can see the back of the march. I'd say about 800.



Were you there?


----------



## TopCat (Oct 23, 2022)

Thousands according to the Guardian. No mention of any other metric.


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 23, 2022)

TopCat said:


> This is a bit shit even for you.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 23, 2022)

Ax^ said:


>


Go on, post another meme that reflects your feelings.


----------



## Serge Forward (Oct 23, 2022)

rubbershoes said:


> Were you there?


Why would I be?  

I do enjoy the whole guess the weight competition element. It's just a pity we won't find out the answer and there's no cake up for grabs.


----------



## existentialist (Oct 23, 2022)

Tanya1982 said:


> You thought my brothers baby was born a month premature before I said so? That was remarkably prescient of you, but then Brexiters are gifted like that I suppose.


I really wouldn't bother engaging. It just feeds the snide.


----------



## teqniq (Oct 23, 2022)

A stopped clock is right twice a day...etc. The Torygraph drawing some wrong conclusions at the the UK's malaise:

After Brexit there is nobody Britain can blame for this mess but itself


----------



## Karl Masks (Oct 23, 2022)

This guy says thousands. YMMV


----------



## gosub (Oct 23, 2022)

Yossarian said:


> View attachment 348416





teqniq said:


> A stopped clock is right twice a day...etc. The Torygraph drawing some wrong conclusions as the the UK's malaise:
> 
> After Brexit there is nobody Britain can blame for this mess but itself


Not really....Ukraine war, China's place in the world, QE turning to QT all up there as significant issues and really don't see EU membership as a panacea to those... Elephant in the room is SW1  though, the think tanks and lobbyists


----------



## TopCat (Oct 23, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> This guy says thousands. YMMV



What guy?


----------



## gosub (Oct 23, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> This guy says thousands. YMMV



So about as many as went to see Icke and Corbyn say COVID wasn't a thing


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 23, 2022)

TopCat said:


> What guy?


Isn't he a failed science teacher who now does videos on the economy on  YouTube? He was on the speaker's list for yesterday's rally.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 23, 2022)

gosub said:


> So about as many as went to see Icke and Corbyn say COVID wasn't a thing


This lot matter more though.


----------



## gosub (Oct 23, 2022)

TopCat said:


> This lot matter more though.


You think? 
They get better press, I'll give you that


----------



## TopCat (Oct 23, 2022)

gosub said:


> You think?
> They get better press, I'll give you that


They think they matter more. That’s the whole point of remainers moaning about the result.


----------



## gosub (Oct 23, 2022)

TopCat said:


> They think they matter more. That’s the whole point of remainers moaning about the result.


Oh don't! Met a Steve Bannon acolyte yesterday  (who defo thought COVID wasn't a thing). He very much thought he mattered..hope not .. came across like a bit of a death cult to me.


----------



## philosophical (Oct 23, 2022)

Some remainers don’t so much moan about the result as wonder why leave voters haven’t enacted the result after over six years.
It’s like lexiters and leave voters didn’t want the outcome they won after all.


----------



## teqniq (Oct 23, 2022)

gosub said:


> Not really....Ukraine war, China's place in the world, QE turning to QT all up there as significant issues and really don't see EU membership as a panacea to those... Elephant in the room is SW1  though, the think tanks and lobbyists


What have these conclusions got to do with the Ukraine war and China?


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 23, 2022)

bimble said:


> They will reverse brexit at some point in the future though. I might not live to see it ...



Impossible. 

The EU will cease to exist within your lifetime.


----------



## bimble (Oct 23, 2022)

Spymaster said:


> Impossible.
> 
> The EU will cease to exist within your lifetime.


Lol. Because our leaving has made them all think going it alone is a great idea. I don’t think so. Massive trading blocks is where it’s headed.
Did you get your Irish passport btw?


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 23, 2022)

TopCat said:


> Go on, post another meme that reflects your feelings.



hmm not sure what your hated for Memes is , do you have a batman like origin story involving  a nefarious meme 

also this is not  a meme thread


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 23, 2022)

bimble said:


> Because our leaving has made them all think going it alone is a great idea.



No. Because it's a failing entity, run by crooks.



> Did you get your Irish passport btw?



Years ago. Love it. I used it for the first time in anger this year though. I went to Faro in June and there was a special entry queue for Brits. Several flights had just landed from the UK, and the immigration hall was absolutely packed except for the completely clear EU channel. I elbowed my way through and used that one, then looked back at the crowd and grinned at the thought that it was probably full of remoniacs!


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 23, 2022)

Spymaster said:


> No. Because it's a failing entity, run by crooks.




and the uk  government does not need the competition


----------



## bimble (Oct 23, 2022)

Spymaster said:


> No. Because it's a failing entity, run by crooks.
> 
> 
> 
> Years ago. Love it. I used it for the first time in anger this year though. I went to Faro in June and there was a special entry queue for Brits. Several flights had just landed from the UK, and the immigration hall was absolutely packed except for the completely clear EU channel. I elbowed my way through and used that one, then looked back at the crowd and grinned at the thought that it was probably full of remoniacs!


Yeah it’s fun doing that, going in the EU queue, laughing at the English and feeling all smug. Maybe that counts as a brexit benefit, for arseholes like you and me, idk.


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 23, 2022)

bimble said:


> Maybe that counts as a brexit benefit, for arseholes like you and me ...



Totally!


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 23, 2022)

Spymaster said:


> No. Because it's a failing entity, run by crooks.
> 
> 
> 
> Years ago. Love it. I used it for the first time in anger this year though. I went to Faro in June and there was a special entry queue for Brits. Several flights had just landed from the UK, and the immigration hall was absolutely packed except for the completely clear EU channel. I elbowed my way through and used that one, then looked back at the crowd and grinned at the thought that it was probably full of remoniacs!


you never put in the adoption papers


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 23, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> you never put in the adoption papers



You should marry bimble .


----------



## sleaterkinney (Oct 23, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> and the uk  government does not need the competition


The UK might break up before the EU does.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 23, 2022)

Spymaster said:


> Impossible.
> 
> The EU will cease to exist within your lifetime.


Nah, it'll just mutate again, like a virus. It's too beneficial to its two senior members, to be dissolved.


----------



## Tanya1982 (Oct 23, 2022)

ViolentPanda said:


> Nah, it'll just mutate again, like a virus. It's too beneficial to its two senior members, to be dissolved.


Doing better than the UK then, which can't even boast being too beneficial for even one of its members.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 23, 2022)

ViolentPanda said:


> Nah, it'll just mutate again, like a virus. It's too beneficial to its two senior members, to be dissolved.


the decision may be removed from the chancelleries of berlin and paris


----------



## Karl Masks (Oct 23, 2022)

gosub said:


> So about as many as went to see Icke and Corbyn say COVID wasn't a thing


Probably less entertainin too


----------



## Karl Masks (Oct 23, 2022)

TopCat said:


> What guy?


uh, the guy who made that video, who's presenting it. His name is Phil and he talks about politics. Quite popularly too, it seems


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 23, 2022)

Spymaster said:


> No. Because it's a failing entity, run by crooks.
> 
> 
> 
> Years ago. Love it. I used it for the first time in anger this year though. I went to Faro in June and there was a special entry queue for Brits. Several flights had just landed from the UK, and the immigration hall was absolutely packed except for the completely clear EU channel. I elbowed my way through and used that one, then looked back at the crowd and grinned at the thought that it was probably full of remoniacs!


I know someone who works at Faro for SEF ( border control) You can just ignore the non EU Lane at Faro and use any of them as they all have the same terminals to the system . All passports or EU ID cards get scanned anyway now. Obviously U.K. passports get stamped unless the the holder has residency in an EU state.


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 23, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> I know someone who works at Faro for SEF ( border control) You can just ignore the non EU Lane at Faro and use any of them as they all have the same terminals to the system . All passports or EU ID cards get scanned anyway now. Obviously U.K. passports get stamped unless the the holder has residency in an EU state.



That didn't look to be an option when I was there this summer. The crowd in the hall was going all the way back up the stairs and there were officials funnelling people towards the non-EU lanes. Every now and then a woman came by asking if anyone had EU passports and dragged us through.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Oct 23, 2022)

Spymaster said:


> Impossible.
> 
> The EU will cease to exist within your lifetime.


This used to be “the EU will collapse in a few months when the UK pulls out, France, Italy will all leave”. Now it’s “within your lifetime”. Progress…


----------



## bimble (Oct 23, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> You can just ignore the non EU Lane at Faro and use any of them ..Obviously U.K. passports get stamped unless the the holder has residency in an EU state.


err. do you see the issue here? The scanning machines they don't do stamps. thats why theres big queues, for people with the Uk passports, cos they need stamps.


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 23, 2022)

sleaterkinney said:


> This used to be “the EU will collapse in a few months when the UK pulls out, France, Italy will all leave”. Now it’s “within your lifetime”. Progress…



Bimble's quite old though.


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 23, 2022)

bimble said:


> err. do you see the issue here? The scanning machines they don't do stamps. thats why theres big queues, for people with the Uk passports, cos they need stamps.


Not only do I see the issue I also understand how it works , the bloke who works for SER knows how it works and I use the EU aisles as well as the non EU . Theory /practice/ theory / practice.


----------



## bimble (Oct 23, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Not only do I see the issue I also understand how it works , the bloke who works for SER knows how it works and I use the EU aisles as well as the non EU . Theory /practice/ theory / practice.


ok. Maybe Spy was there on a bad day then , a theory day or something.


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 23, 2022)

Spymaster said:


> That didn't look to be an option when I was there this summer. The crowd in the hall was going all the way back up the stairs and there were officials funnelling people towards the non-EU lanes. Every now and then a woman came by asking if anyone had EU passports and dragged us through.


We can only go on each of our own experiences. I went out and back first week July , then first week October . Despite being modernised a few years ago that airport is fucked if they get three flights arriving at once . Very often the scab self scan terminals aren’t even open .


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 23, 2022)

bimble said:


> ok. Maybe Spy was there on a bad day then , a theory day or something.


No need to feed into the snide that was identified up thread Bimble .


----------



## bimble (Oct 23, 2022)

I’m not being snide! It's just a fact that UK passports need to be stamped now, and the self scan gates can't do that, so it all takes much longer. I always carry at least 2 of my passports with me.


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 23, 2022)

snide on this thread never

tbf after Brexit it does take longer to get through airports and ports even going back to Dublin even been an irish citizen
the checks are now longer and the ports now have more security than before


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 23, 2022)

bimble said:


> I’m not being snide! It's just a fact that UK passports need to be stamped now, and the self scan gates can't do that, so it all takes much longer. I always carry at least 2 of my passports with me.


We weren’t talking about self scan . As I’ve said those terminals at Faro very often aren’t open . 
How many passports have you got btw ?


----------



## bimble (Oct 23, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> We weren’t talking about self scan . As I’ve said those terminals at Faro very often aren’t open .
> How many passports have you got btw ?


3.
When the self scan ones are open at Faro, the Uk passports can't use them though can they, because stamps.
So when they are open, people like Spy and me can use them, and get out the airport relatively quickly, but the Uk passport peope have to wait in a different slower queue. don't they.


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 23, 2022)

bimble said:


> 3.
> When the self scan ones are open at Faro, the Uk passports can't use them though can they, because stamps.
> So when they are open, people like Spy and me can use them, and get out the airport relatively quickly, but the Uk passport peope have to wait in a different slower queue. don't they.


3 passports ? I shouldn’t have asked tbh as you could be inundated with questions from one poster as to if you got these before during or after the referendum and which way you voted . 

We will all have to meet at Faro and test this out , bit like a time trial .


----------



## CyberRose (Oct 23, 2022)

When I flew from France to Prague and back early in the year, there were big queues at the EU lines but nobody at the non-EU lines so I got through quicker than everyone else. Swings and roundabouts


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 23, 2022)

bimble said:


> 3.
> When the self scan ones are open at Faro, the Uk passports can't use them though can they, because stamps.
> So when they are open, people like Spy and me can use them, and get out the airport relatively quickly, but the Uk passport peope have to wait in a different slower queue. don't they.



I'm pretty sure UK passports work at biomentric gates in Spain and Portugal.


----------



## bimble (Oct 23, 2022)

Spymaster said:


> I'm pretty sure UK passports work at biomentric gates in Spain and Portugal.


It’s the stamping thing, post brexit.


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 23, 2022)

bimble said:


> It’s the stamping thing, post brexit.



The gates still work for UK passport holders though. They're urged to get stamps as well but most won't bother.


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 23, 2022)

Spymaster said:


> The gates still work for UK passport holders though. They're urged to get stamps as well but most won't bother.


I am sure I read that a) the stamping thing was at the request of the U.K. govt. (The SER bloke says that their  system is a simple ‘fingerprint’ of passport in/ out )
b) that you are right that the self service gates  do work for U.K. passports at Faro and Lisbon . ( I’ll see if I can find the big in one of the Brit Portuguese papers ) 

Anyway it’s true to say that some travellers have suffered and will suffer some relatively minor inconvenience .


----------



## brogdale (Oct 23, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Anyway it’s true to say that some travellers have suffered and will suffer some relatively minor inconvenience .


...but it was all worth it for the....


----------



## bimble (Oct 23, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> I am sure I read that a) the stamping thing was at the request of the U.K. govt. (The SER bloke says that their  system is a simple ‘fingerprint’ of passport in/ out )
> b) that you are right that the self service gates  do work for U.K. passports at Faro and Lisbon . ( I’ll see if I can find the big in one of the Brit Portuguese papers )
> 
> Anyway it’s true to say that some travellers have suffered and will suffer some relatively minor inconvenience .



I have done a helpful google for you.
Some airports in Portugal and Spain do have e-gates that UK passport holders can use but the rest of the EU apparently does not.









						The airports in Spain and Portugal with electronic gates for UK passports
					

Brexit means electronic passport gates in most EU countries no longer accept British passports, but Spain and Portugal do at major airports




					www.chroniclelive.co.uk
				




And the stamping thing is about checking that we haven't overstayed our 90 day limit per year else they can fine us, by assuming we have overstayed if they cant see the stamp,  so why would it be at the request of UK gov i'm not sure that makes any sense does it.


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 23, 2022)

bimble said:


> I have done a helpful google for you.
> Some airports in Portugal and Spain do have e-gates that UK passport holders can use but the rest of the EU apparently does not.
> 
> 
> ...


No the swiping of the passport into the system ( in/out) is the computer check according to the SEF bloke . I had my passport stamped after I landed in a late flight . The bloke was talking to a colleague and didn’t look at the residencia on my phone which I put on the counter , swiped and stamped the passport . I told him I’d got a residencia , he scanned it and said yes it’s in our system like everything, don’t worry about it. The SEF fella who I met weeks confirmed that’s the process . 

Can’t remember where I read it was the UKs request .


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 23, 2022)

brogdale said:


> ...but it was all worth it for the....


Never had inconvenience or queues before Brexit ? Oh no they just waived you through down a path of scattered rise petals , putting garlands round your neck . Run free we are in the EU. they cheered .


----------



## brogdale (Oct 23, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Never had inconvenience or queues before Brexit ? Oh no they just waived you through down a path of scattered rise petals , putting garlands round your neck . Run free we are in the EU. they cheered .


Wrong; the answer was "control".


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 23, 2022)

brogdale said:


> Wrong; the answer was "control".


As in the Joy Division film?


----------



## bimble (Oct 23, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> No the swiping of the passport into the system ( in/out) is the computer check according to the SEF bloke . I had my passport stamped after I landed in a late flight . The bloke was talking to a colleague and didn’t look at the residencia on my phone which I put on the counter , swiped and stamped the passport . I told him I’d got a residencia , he scanned it and said yes it’s in our system like everything, don’t worry about it. The SEF fella who I met weeks confirmed that’s the process .
> 
> Can’t remember where I read it was the UKs request .


thats all extremely interesting.

Portugal's doing quite a bit better than Uk at the moment i see, inflationwise. that's nice.


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 23, 2022)

at least we have a sort of benefit of brexit


you can get through Lisbon airport a little bit quicker


but not as quick as before the vote


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 23, 2022)

CyberRose said:


> When I flew from France to Prague and back early in the year, there were big queues at the EU lines but nobody at the non-EU lines so I got through quicker than everyone else. Swings and roundabouts




There are no passport checks between France and Czechia.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 23, 2022)

I’m impressed at how much Bimble travels that an extra 20 minutes here and there is such a big fucking deal.

Maybe check yer carbon footprint?


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 23, 2022)

dear god and i get Topcat popping up if i slag off posters on this thread


----------



## bimble (Oct 23, 2022)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> I’m impressed at how much Bimble travels that an extra 20 minutes here and there is such a big fucking deal.
> 
> Maybe check yer carbon footprint?


From the man who sells flights for a living! Very good. I don’t travel that much I just carry the passports everywhere, like to Tesco’s, clutching them tightly to remind me that I can leave brexit island anytime.


----------



## CyberRose (Oct 23, 2022)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> There are no passport checks between France and Czechia.


That's right! Now I've confused myself, must have been the Gatwick to Paris leg on a plane load of French people!


----------



## bimble (Oct 23, 2022)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> There are no passport checks between France and Czechia.


Wait why not , that sounds great.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 23, 2022)

bimble said:


> From the man who sells flights for a living! Very good. I don’t travel that much I just carry the passports everywhere, like to Tesco’s, clutching them tightly to remind me that I can leave brexit island anytime.




Doesn’t sound unhinged in the slightest.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 23, 2022)

bimble said:


> Wait why not , that sounds great.




Every now and then they do though, they just don’t advertise it in advance, often when they are fearing an influx of brown skinned people they throw up the barriers, but that’s just cos they’re racist.


----------



## bimble (Oct 23, 2022)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Doesn’t sound unhinged in the slightest.


I’m not being serious ffs. this thread it brings out the best in us all.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 23, 2022)

bimble said:


> I’m not being serious ffs. this thread it brings out the best in us all.




You don’t say!

I only have a U.K. passport and can also leave the country whenever if wish. Weird, innit.


----------



## bimble (Oct 23, 2022)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> You don’t say!
> 
> I only have a U.K. passport and can also leave the country whenever if wish. Weird, innit.


Yeah for 90 days.


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 23, 2022)

bimble said:


> thats all extremely interesting.
> 
> Portugal's doing quite a bit better than Uk at the moment i see, inflationwise. that's nice.


Same issues here tbh for most Portuguese  ( aside from the fact we’ve had the same PM for what seems to be an eternity) inflation, diesel and petrol costs , building material costs , effect on wheat prices due to war , veg prices up due to drought ,  strikes on the railways etc . 
Weather and food are better though


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 23, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> dear god and i get Topcat popping up if i slag off posters on this thread


Topcat is just the first in a queue pal


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 23, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Same issues here tbh for most Portuguese  ( aside from the fact we’ve had the same PM for what seems to be an eternity) inflation, diesel and petrol costs , building material costs , effect on wheat prices due to war , veg prices up due to drought ,  strikes on the railways etc .
> Weather and food are better though



We had the ERG Group fuck up mortgages in the uk  if that helps


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 23, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Topcat is just the first in a queue pal



the queue mate, you made this your little pool to slag off remainers not me

be busy with the chaos the party that brought us brexit

made what 10 posts a month on this thread in 3 months...


damn have i been gunning you


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 23, 2022)

bimble said:


> Yeah for 90 days.



How long are your fucking holidays???


----------



## Karl Masks (Oct 23, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Isn't he a failed science teacher who now does videos on the economy on  YouTube? He was on the speaker's list for yesterday's rally.


Yes, although I'm not sure it's fair to say he's a failed teacher (he could be, I won't make that assumption)

but he's just another supertanskii type: slags off Corbyn while ignorant of the fact that his hero Keith caused Labour's shitty brexit position which contributed to their election loss. etc etc

who cares


----------



## TopCat (Oct 23, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> dear god and i get Topcat popping up if i slag off posters on this thread


The temerity.


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 23, 2022)

I'm slightly confused,

why don't you explain it for me?


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 23, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> the queue mate, you made this your little pool to slag off remainers not me
> 
> be busy with the chaos the party that brought us brexit
> 
> ...











						✂️ what does this mean
					

15 seconds · Clipped by jonnyfavorite · Original video "Take the Money and Run - I Have a Gub, Apt Natural" by James Anderson




					youtube.com


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 23, 2022)

ponders 


 when people give me YouTube links,

I tend to loose faith in their argument


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 23, 2022)

waits for the queue...


----------



## stethoscope (Oct 24, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> and the uk  government does not need the competition


Even now any criticism of the EU is met with 'but...but... the UK government'. Yeah they're both shit ya liberals.


----------



## gosub (Oct 24, 2022)

stethoscope said:


> Even now any criticism of the EU is met with 'but...but... the UK government'. Yeah they're both shit ya liberals.


Doesn't matter who you vote for, you still get governed


----------



## bimble (Oct 28, 2022)

This 'black hole' that they keep talking about to prepare us for massive cuts to public services, the number being put about was 60 billion wasn't it.
The best calculations of what brexit has cost so far are :
32 billion PER YEAR in lost tax revenue due to shrunken economy plus the divorce bill of 35 billion.
Weird coincidence that, definitely covid though nothing to see here.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Oct 28, 2022)

bimble said:


> This 'black hole' that they keep talking about to prepare us for massive cuts to public services, the number being put about was 60 billion wasn't it.
> The best calculations of what brexit has cost so far are :
> 32 billion PER YEAR in lost tax revenue due to shrunken economy plus the divorce bill of 35 billion.
> Weird coincidence that, definitely covid though nothing to see here.



No doubt the economy has suffered and contracted after Britain left the single market. No doubt this is over and above what has occurred everywhere due to a worldwide pandemic and capitalist economic crisis.

However, the question is this, was that inevitable or was it caused by a combination of covid and Tory incompetence that botched exiting?

Put another way, is is possible to imagine a successful economy without the UK being in the single market? I suspect you and I would not agree on the answer, but I maintain a vibrant national economy is both desirable and entirely achievable.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 28, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> No doubt the economy has suffered and contracted after Britain left the single market. No doubt this is over and above what has occurred everywhere due to a worldwide pandemic and capitalist economic crisis.
> 
> However, the question is this, was that inevitable or was it caused by a combination of covid and Tory incompetence that botched exiting?
> 
> Put another way, is is possible to imagine a successful economy without the UK being in the single market? I suspect you and I would not agree on the answer, but I maintain a vibrant national economy is both desirable and entirely achievable.


If you're going to talk about a successful economy you have to think about who it's successful for. And if you have in mind the people you'd like it to be successful for that I think you do then no, a successful economy is not possible in the current circumstances.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 28, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> If you're going to talk about a successful economy you have to think about who it's successful for. And if you have in mind the people you'd like it to be successful for that I think you do then no, a successful economy is not possible in the current circumstances.


Yes, if the last 7 weeks have reiterated anything, it's just that; there is no taking back control whilst neoliberal fincap corps determine macro-economic policy of national polities.


----------



## bimble (Oct 28, 2022)

A "vibrant national economy" i'm not sure what that means or would look like in the context of the world as it is. Can you give an example of a place that has achieved this in recent times? We haven't been self sufficient even in food since sometime in the 1800s.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 28, 2022)

bimble said:


> A "vibrant national economy" i'm not sure what that means or would look like in the context of the world as it is. Can you give an example of a place that has achieved this in recent times? We haven't been self sufficient even in food since sometime in the 1800s.


is autarky the goal?


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Oct 28, 2022)

bimble said:


> A "vibrant national economy" i'm not sure what that means or would look like in the context of the world as it is. Can you give an example of a place that has achieved this in recent times? We haven't been self sufficient even in food since sometime in the 1800s.



That's not true. We were largely self sufficient in food and energy (in fact a net exporter of both) up until the beginning of the 1970's.


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 28, 2022)

I think this sets the path out that needs to followed by Rejaimers


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## Smokeandsteam (Oct 28, 2022)

brogdale said:


> Yes, if the last 7 weeks have reiterated anything, it's just that; there is no taking back control whilst neoliberal fincap corps determine macro-economic policy of national polities.



That, I'd have thought, goes without saying. However, addressing the historically low levels of balance of payments, the record low levels of investment, the obsessions with outsourcing and offshoring, the low levels of public ownership and absence of a central direction of a national and strategic industrial strategy are all entirely possible.


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 28, 2022)

hmm last few week were brought to you by the ERG group same group who brought us Brexit


Cannie blame it all on Covid and outside of the UK factors


----------



## Smangus (Oct 28, 2022)

Sovereignty is an illusion, lunch-sovereignty doubly so.


----------



## Yossarian (Oct 28, 2022)

Britain hasn't been self-sufficient in food for centuries - according to Farmers Weekly, self-sufficiency peaked in the 1980s, around a decade after EEC membership.









						UK self-sufficiency in food - how bad is it? - Farmers Weekly
					

The UK's self-sufficiency in staple foods like meat and fresh vegetables has plummeted since the highs of the 1980s, according to DEFRA's own




					www.fwi.co.uk


----------



## bimble (Oct 28, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> That's not true. We were largely self sufficient in food and energy (in fact a net exporter of both) up until the beginning of the 1970's.


Energy does seem to be an entirely unforced and serious fuckup, there is no good reason at all why we are so dependent on imports for that.
But trying to get back to the pre-1970s foodscape i dunno if that’s the way forward.


----------



## bimble (Oct 28, 2022)

Yossarian said:


> Britain hasn't been self-sufficient in food for centuries - according to Farmers Weekly, self-sufficiency peaked in the 1980s, around a decade after EEC membership.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What’s “indigenous type food”. Even if we were almost self sufficient in that it doesn’t include avocados does it.


----------



## Yossarian (Oct 28, 2022)

bimble said:


> What’s “indigenous type food”. Even if we were almost self sufficient in that it doesn’t include avocados does it.



The NFU describes "non-indigenous foods" as "items such as exotic fruit – bananas, mangoes, tea, coffee and spices – foods that cannot be grown (either at all or on a meaningful scale) in the UK."


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Oct 28, 2022)

Yossarian said:


> Britain hasn't been self-sufficient in food for centuries - according to Farmers Weekly, self-sufficiency peaked in the 1980s, around a decade after EEC membership.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Read David Edgerton’s History of 20th Century Britain for an extensive discussion of this. I’d argue he’s more of an authority than farmers weekly. You may disagree


----------



## bluescreen (Oct 28, 2022)

Until we achieve self-sufficiency, post-Brexit border friction is a serious impediment to the trade and co-operation we used to enjoy. 

This post is from a Czech trucker/journalist who lived in UK for 17 years until Brexit:


----------



## bimble (Oct 28, 2022)

Smokeandsteam the "vibrant national economy" you talk about, can you point to any country who has one of those currently?

eta i see that the number one most self sufficient country in the world at the moment is apparently Sudan, lowest import & export figures of anywhere, but i don't think you'd call it vibrant, its just fucked.


----------



## Yossarian (Oct 28, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Read David Edgerton’s History of 20th Century Britain for an extensive discussion of this. I’d argue he’s more of an authority than farmers weekly. You may disagree



I'll add it to the list, but I think you might have misremembered its content - according to this review, he said Britain was "self-sufficient in food" in the 1980s, which aligns with the DEFRA statistics used by Farmers Weekly, when "non-indigenous" foods are excluded.

_By the Thatcher era Britain – “uniquely” in her modern history – was “self-sufficient in food” and, for the first time since 1939, “a net exporter of energy”. Therefore, the country no longer had to export manufactured products to balance imports of food and energy: “The basic relations of the economy to the rest of the world had changed.” But do any of us properly understand even our own recent past? As Edgerton notes, “this epochal transformation” has “barely registered”, either in political argument or in historical analysis.

_


----------



## Karl Masks (Oct 28, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> That's not true. We were largely self sufficient in food and energy (in fact a net exporter of both) up until the beginning of the 1970's.


"largely" being the operative word. It depends on what the food in question is and what people are eating then and now.


----------



## gosub (Oct 28, 2022)

bimble said:


> What’s “indigenous type food”. Even if we were almost self sufficient in that it doesn’t include avocados does it.


Be a bit odd to blame a tea shortage on Brexit


----------



## Yossarian (Oct 28, 2022)

In this post from 2018, Edgerton credits the "self-sufficiency" in the 1980s to the British economy becoming more like European ones.

_Even in 1950 the British economy was different from the continental European ones, not least in its weak agriculture. Even in war, Britain couldn’t feed itself. That historical reality was profoundly changed by British national policy, which transformed the nation after 1945. In many, many ways, continental Europe and the UK converged, on a continental model of national self-sufficiency. By the 1980s the UK was nearly self-sufficient in food, something nearly unthinkable in 1945 or 1914. After 1945 it also became a modern industrialised nation.

....Too many commentators have asserted that the Brexit vote represented an imperial throwback. A more plausible explanation is that it was an inchoate cry of nationalist rage from inner England, largely from those who grew up in a national age when there was national industry making national goods. There has also been far too much emphasis on the ideas of Brexiter politicians as imperialist or nationalist. Far more significant is a pining for Edwardian unilateral free trade. Rather than rebuild what is left of the British nation’s industry and agriculture, they would destroy it.

What Brexiters say about the British present deserves more attention. Where once there was a ludicrous declinism seriously underestimating British power, now a daft revivalism seems to be at the core of buccaneering Brexiter thinking...

Brexit is not a portentous destiny that overhangs our politics. It is a mess of irreconcilable nostalgias. We shouldn’t grant to the Brexiters their own argument that they are somehow more in tune with the essence of Britishness as experienced through history, which we risk doing if we think they are helped by ghosts from the past. It is not a reflection on the realities of British life, of the present or of the past. It’s a very local phenomenon, which even if carried through, would barely register at European, much less global level. For the only power Brexiters have is to make us poorer, to inflict self-harm on the economy, and to damage further what little reputation British politicians have. Delusional as well as deluding, these banana-monarchy conmen and conduits for dark money want to trap us in a historicised never-never land._






						The idea of deep continuity in British history is absurd. We’ve always been in flux — David Edgerton
					

From the  Observer  18 November 2018   There is something ridiculous about Brexit Britain. It is a Carry On movie set in the past: we are living not at a historic moment but one laden with trivialised history. Boris Johnson tells us that with Brexit the nation will find its bojo as it found




					www.davidedgerton.org


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Oct 28, 2022)

Yossarian said:


> In this post from 2018, Edgerton credits the "self-sufficiency" in the 1980s to the British economy becoming more like European ones.
> 
> _Even in 1950 the British economy was different from the continental European ones, not least in its weak agriculture. Even in war, Britain couldn’t feed itself. That historical reality was profoundly changed by British national policy, which transformed the nation after 1945. In many, many ways, continental Europe and the UK converged, on a continental model of national self-sufficiency. By the 1980s the UK was nearly self-sufficient in food, something nearly unthinkable in 1945 or 1914. After 1945 it also became a modern industrialised nation.
> 
> ...



Indeed he does. However, Edgerton's argument and beef is with the particular form of Brexit as conceptualized by Tories and right wingers rather than one based on building a national economy for the 21st Century. I am happy to agree with you that Edgerton proves that Britain was entirely self sufficient in terms of food until Thatcher bar "non-indigenous foods". 

Returning to that point now - as well as being a net exporter of energy with public ownership of large sections of both sectors - would be a step forward wouldn't it.


----------



## Flavour (Oct 28, 2022)

bimble said:


> What’s “indigenous type food”. Even if we were almost self sufficient in that it doesn’t include avocados does it.



The world can't afford for the West to eat avocados at the current rate, that much is obvious.


----------



## gosub (Oct 28, 2022)

Flavour said:


> The world can't afford for the West to eat avocados at the current rate, that much is obvious.


Tea though!

Not sure the UK govenment has thought this through


----------



## bimble (Oct 28, 2022)

Flavour said:


> The world can't afford for the West to eat avocados at the current rate, that much is obvious.


We brexited to save the environment? Whose going to tell the avocado farmers.

Anyway, not sure how we got back onto this old chestnut of food self sufficiency, I was just pointing out that brexit seems to have cost the country aprox sixty billion to date which coincidentally is the same number they keep going on about as the 'black hole' in the public finances.


----------



## Yossarian (Oct 28, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I am happy to agree with you that Edgerton proves that Britain was entirely self sufficient in terms of food until Thatcher bar "non-indigenous foods".



He says the opposite - he says Britain wasn't self-sufficient in food during the imperial period, but self-sufficiency increased after World War II as Britain became more like its European counterparts, reaching a peak early in the Thatcher years before declining once more.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Oct 28, 2022)

Yossarian said:


> He says the opposite - he says Britain wasn't self-sufficient in food during the imperial period, but self-sufficiency increased after World War II as Britain became more like its European counterparts, reaching a peak early in the Thatcher years before declining once more.



No he doesn't. He says that the development of, focus on and prioritization of the building of a national economy after the war led to relatively rapid self sufficiency in food (bar non-indigenous foods) and that this was reversed by Thatcherite policies that use the state to defeat, demolish and sell off the key sections of the national economy. He doesn't say - but should after showing what a pro-EU figure Thatcher was initially- that the CAP played a key role in this in respect of food self sufficiency.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 28, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> That, I'd have thought, goes without saying. However, addressing the historically low levels of balance of payments, the record low levels of investment, the obsessions with outsourcing and offshoring, the low levels of public ownership and absence of a central direction of a national and strategic industrial strategy are all entirely possible.


Not sure what you mean by low levels of balance of payments but, since leaving the supra state's single market, all of the metrics for the UK's BoP have deteriorated negatively. Foreign direct investment (as % of GDP) has also fallen off a cliff edge. Given the neoliberal context of globalised/financialised capital, these things are completely unsurprising when a polity withdraws from a trading bloc.

The getting back of control under Brexit always was a complete myth.


----------



## bimble (Oct 28, 2022)

Can't believe there's no longer a Ministry For Brexit Opportunities, that didn't last long, they must have closed up shop because they'd already found all of them the opportunities.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Oct 28, 2022)

brogdale said:


> Not sure what you mean by low levels of balance of payments but, since leaving the supra state's single market, all of the metrics for the UK's BoP have deteriorated negatively. Foreign direct investment (as % of GDP) has also fallen off a cliff edge. Given the neoliberal context of globalised/financialised capital, these things are completely unsurprising when a polity withdraws from a trading bloc.
> 
> The getting back of control under Brexit always was a complete myth.



What I mean by balance of payments is the increase of imports and relative decline of exports. The balance of payments was once the key metric by which the health or otherwise of the UK economy was measured (instead of inflation, the control of which was the metric prioritized by the Thatcherites). It has, as you suggest, sharply declined post Brexit and that this was predictable in the short term. 

But, the reasons for its decline are longer run (as you well know) and the prioritization of a national economy ('taking back control' as you put it): a central industrial strategy, strategic direction of the economy via a national investment bank and a programme of insourcing, re-nationalization, infrastructure and housing spending and a balanced economy would all help address those reasons. 

In terms of the EU trading bloc a serious government committed to serious negotiation with the EU (as opposed to the abysmal approach of Johnson) should be able to come up with an adult set of arrangements.


----------



## RD2003 (Oct 28, 2022)

This is interesting from John Gray, whatever anybody may think of the article as a whole. on which the emphasis is the instabilty of contemporay world (something the radical left would once have welcomed as an opportunity.) The revenge of the technocrats

*What the Tories get wrong about Brexit*

Insofar as Brexit’s a Tory project, it is: Global Britain, supply-side reforms, free market, open the British economy even more to the buffeting of the world. Whereas what people wanted in the North and the Midlands, and other parts of the country, from Brexit, I think, was some shelter from those storms. They wanted not a smaller state, a state that had retreated even further. They wanted actually, maybe not a bigger state, although most of them I think probably did, but one which was more protective of them and more concerned with their wellbeing and more active. So the majority of those who voted for Brexit did not vote — perhaps the overwhelming majority — for the reasons that the Tory Brexiteers thought. And that, of course, introduced a contradiction in the whole Tory Brexit project, which meant it couldn’t work.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Oct 28, 2022)

RD2003 said:


> This is interesting from John Gray, whatever anybody may think of the article as a whole. on which the emphasis is the instabilty of contemporay world (something the radical left would once have welcomed as an opportunity.) The revenge of the technocrats
> 
> *What the Tories get wrong about Brexit*
> 
> Insofar as Brexit’s a Tory project, it is: Global Britain, supply-side reforms, free market, open the British economy even more to the buffeting of the world. Whereas what people wanted in the North and the Midlands, and other parts of the country, from Brexit, I think, was some shelter from those storms. They wanted not a smaller state, a state that had retreated even further. They wanted actually, maybe not a bigger state, although most of them I think probably did, but one which was more protective of them and more concerned with their wellbeing and more active. So the majority of those who voted for Brexit did not vote — perhaps the overwhelming majority — for the reasons that the Tory Brexiteers thought. And that, of course, introduced a contradiction in the whole Tory Brexit project, which meant it couldn’t work.



We've had the debate on here many times about the reasons as to why people voted to leave and the clear difference in motivations between those voting to leave in the deindustrialized towns and left behind coastal places and the Tories/neo-libs. All one big amorphous blob for the remainers of course, even though the evidence suggests otherwise.


----------



## editor (Oct 28, 2022)

This is what the Brexiteers fought for!


> No more right to paid holiday. Goodbye TUPE. Farewell limits on working hours. This article takes a first look at the government’s Brexit Freedoms Bill and the potentially major implications for UK employment law.











						Lewis Silkin - What might the Brexit Freedoms Bill mean for employment law?
					

No more right to paid holiday.  Goodbye TUPE.  Farewell limits on working hours. This article takes a first look at the government’s Brexit Freedoms Bill and the potentially major implications for UK employment law.




					www.lewissilkin.com


----------



## contadino (Oct 28, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> We've had the debate on here many times about the reasons as to why people voted to leave and the clear difference in motivations between those voting to leave in the deindustrialized towns and left behind coastal places and the Tories/neo-libs. All one big amorphous blob for the remainers of course, even though the evidence suggests otherwise.


I like the way you've lumped 'the remainers' into one amorphous blob, yet imply that you're somehow above that.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 28, 2022)

contadino said:


> I like the way you've lumped 'the remainers' into one amorphous blob, yet imply that you're somehow above that.


if you look again at what he wrote, and this time read it, you 'll find you're wrong


----------



## contadino (Oct 28, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> if you look again at what he wrote, and this time read it, you 'll find you're wrong


No, "the remainers" is the phrase used. To paraphrase...all remainers are unable to separate the motivation of all leavers.  If you look again at what was written, you'll see the hypocrisy.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 28, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> What I mean by balance of payments is the increase of imports and relative decline of exports. The balance of payments was once the key metric by which the health or otherwise of the UK economy was measured (instead of inflation, the control of which was the metric prioritized by the Thatcherites). It has, as you suggest, sharply declined post Brexit and that this was predictable in the short term.
> 
> But, the reasons for its decline are longer run (as you well know) and the prioritization of a national economy ('taking back control' as you put it): a central industrial strategy, strategic direction of the economy via a national investment bank and a programme of insourcing, re-nationalization, infrastructure and housing spending and a balanced economy would all help address those reasons.
> 
> In terms of the EU trading bloc a serious government committed to serious negotiation with the EU (as opposed to the abysmal approach of Johnson) should be able to come up with an adult set of arrangements.


Yes, but gone are the days when national governments represent the interests of national capital; they don't care where their returns come from spatially. Even if the UK or rump UK were ever to elect a democratic socialist government, rather than the varieties of neoliberalism we have, "the markets" wouldn't realistically allow the realisation of any of these social democratic goals as they would threaten rates of return and represent a brake on neoliberal progress. It really doesn't matter whether the UK state is a member of the EU or not.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 28, 2022)

editor said:


> This is what the Brexiteers fought for!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Precisely what the organised campaign groups were fighting for; probably not what many leave voters were voting for.

e2a ...or thought they were


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 28, 2022)

.cba.


----------



## Yossarian (Oct 28, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> No he doesn't. He says that the development of, focus on and prioritization of the building of a national economy after the war led to relatively rapid self sufficiency in food (bar non-indigenous foods) and that this was reversed by Thatcherite policies that use the state to defeat, demolish and sell off the key sections of the national economy. He doesn't say - but should after showing what a pro-EU figure Thatcher was initially- that the CAP played a key role in this in respect of food self sufficiency.



Yeah, I see he argues that while food self-sufficiency peaked under Thatcher, it was due to long-term postwar policies that she soon reversed.

I will definitely be reading more of Edgerton, rarely have I seen anybody criticise Brexit so eloquently.

_
The other aspect is that the politics of the Brexiteers themselves aren’t the politics of Brexit voters. The Brexit vote is an old vote, just like the Conservative vote. One has to credit the Conservatives with realizing that their vote was an old one and doing everything they could to sustain that vote — for example, by keeping NHS spending and pension spending up, systematically targeting welfare at the elderly and taking it away from the young.

But many of those old people were in effect “Lexiter” protest voters — people who wanted national industry back and perhaps national agriculture as well. They were expressing an entirely legitimate disapproval of where the economy had been going for the last forty years. But instead of voting out the powers that be in London, they were convinced that they had to vote out the powers that be in Brussels. I think that they made, from their point of view, an appalling mistake, and that’s going to add to what I think will be a most incendiary time in British politics._









						Brexit and Boris Johnson Are the Legacies of Tony Blair
					

Tony Blair and New Labour consolidated the economic policies of Thatcherism and fostered a deep cynicism about politics through their lies about Iraq. The crisis of the last decade and its potentially ruinous consequences are their legacy to modern Britain.




					jacobin.com


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 28, 2022)

Didn't anyone from here go to last week's march and rally?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 28, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Didn't anyone from here go to last week's march and rally?


i was working last weekend


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Oct 28, 2022)

Yossarian said:


> Yeah, I see he argues that while food self-sufficiency peaked under Thatcher, it was due to long-term postwar policies that she soon reversed.
> 
> I will definitely be reading more of Edgerton, rarely have I seen anybody criticise Brexit so eloquently.
> 
> ...



Sadly, for you, you’ve already quoted most of his frothing about Brexit. The book, conversely, is excellent and a compelling account.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Oct 28, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Didn't anyone from here go to last week's march and rally?



What happens on planet remain stays on planet remain clearly


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 28, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> What happens on planet remain stays on planet remain clearly


tbh remainers would put pretty much anyone off wanting to campaign for the uk to re-enter the european union


----------



## Yossarian (Oct 28, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Sadly, for you, you’ve already quoted most of his frothing about Brexit. The book, conversely, is excellent and a compelling account.



I guess he has a Jekyll and Hyde thing going on, veering from excellent authority to frothing loon depending on whether you agree with what he says.


----------



## bimble (Oct 28, 2022)

Yossarian said:


> I guess he has a Jekyll and Hyde thing going on, veering from excellent authority to frothing loon depending on whether you agree with what he says.


The bit you quoted says that people who voted leave for perfectly lexity reasons “made an appealing mistake”.
That’s got to be dismissed out of hand here, no matter who says it.


----------



## Karl Masks (Oct 28, 2022)

bimble said:


> The bit you quoted says that people who voted leave for perfectly lexity reasons “made an appealing mistake”.
> That’s got to be dismissed out of hand here, no matter who says it.


why? They did, it was


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Oct 28, 2022)

We


Yossarian said:


> I guess he has a Jekyll and Hyde thing going on, veering from excellent authority to frothing loon depending on whether you agree with what he says.



Correct


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 28, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> why? They did, it was


What was so appealing in your view about this mistake ?


----------



## Raheem (Oct 28, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> What was so appealing in your view about this mistake ?


Come on, it was quite obviously an autocorrect error and should have read "appealing pisstake".


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 28, 2022)

Raheem said:


> Come on, it was quite obviously an autocorrect error and should have read "appealing pisstake".


Would fit in with the thread


----------



## stethoscope (Oct 28, 2022)

> _But many of those old people were in effect “Lexiter” protest voters — people who wanted national industry back and perhaps national agriculture as well. They were expressing an entirely legitimate disapproval of where the economy had been going for the last forty years. But instead of voting out the powers that be in London, they were convinced that they had to vote out the powers that be in Brussels. I think that they made, from their point of view, an appalling mistake, and that’s going to add to what I think will be a most incendiary time in British politics._



FWIW, thats not really my left-leave position. Very simply in my view, if you oppose capitalism and neoliberalism, as a libertarian communist, it means opposing all structures that support that - both state (UK government) and superstate (EU).

I'd also argue that most left leavers I've met very actively oppose the Tories in government (and indeed centrist/right Labour) AND EU. If anything, the liberal mass of 'FBPE's including some on the left are the ones that are now pre-occupied on rejoining the EU as the 'solution' rather than actually fighting on pro-working class, socialist grounds.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 28, 2022)

stethoscope said:


> FWIW, thats not really my left-leave position. Very simply in my view, if you oppose capitalism and neoliberalism, as a libertarian communist, it means opposing all stuctures that support that - both state (UK government) and superstate (EU).
> 
> I'd also argue that most left leavers I've met very actively oppose the Tories and government AND EU. If anything, the liberal mass of 'FBPE's including some on the left are the ones that are now pre-occupied on rejoining the EU as the 'solution' rather than actually fighting on pro-working class, socialist grounds.


.


----------



## inva (Oct 28, 2022)

stethoscope said:


> FWIW, thats not really my left-leave position. Very simply in my view, if you oppose capitalism and neoliberalism, as a libertarian communist, it means opposing all structures that support that - both state (UK government) and superstate (EU).
> 
> I'd also argue that most left leavers I've met very actively oppose the Tories in government (and indeed centrist/right Labour) AND EU. If anything, the liberal mass of 'FBPE's including some on the left are the ones that are now pre-occupied on rejoining the EU as the 'solution' rather than actually fighting on pro-working class, socialist grounds.


It's a muddled paragraph all round tbh, would be mildly interested to know how he squares seemingly thinking leave voters are right to want nationalised industries and to reject the trajectory of the last 40 years with thinking they're wrong to oppose an obstacle to nationalised industries and a key structure through which the current trajectory has been organised and enforced. Or maybe he's one of those reform people who are surely the most bonkers of us all 😁


----------



## Karl Masks (Oct 28, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> What was so appealing in your view about this mistake ?


Not sure I follow. I'm simply saying that voting leave was a mistake


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 28, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> Not sure I follow. I'm simply saying that voting leave was a mistake


It was a typo mistake that read appealing rather than appalling. However whilst you have popped in are you a rejoiner?


----------



## Karl Masks (Oct 28, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> It was a typo mistake that read appealing rather than appalling. However whilst you have popped in are you a rejoiner?


I suppose I am. I don't really see much of an alternative in an increasingly fraught global village. 

I accept the EU is problematic, but then so is Westmisnter, the Tories, and Labour, etc.

I am prepared to be proven wrong but Brexit is a hiding to nowhere. I just don't see any good coming from it at all. But we won't be joining for a while which means a painful period in the wilderness possibly ending up with a visit from the IMF. 

Either that or perhaps we join the customs union or something because the NI situation is just ridiculous


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 28, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> I suppose I am. I don't really see much of an alternative in an increasingly fraught global village.
> 
> I accept the EU is problematic, but then so is Westmisnter, the Tories, and Labour, etc.
> 
> ...


What would you like to change in the EU and Westminster?


----------



## Karl Masks (Oct 28, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> What would you like to change in the EU and Westminster?


I don't want to live in a capitalist society


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 28, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> It was a typo mistake that read appealing rather than appalling. However whilst you have popped in are you a rejoiner?



and seeming as your asking people ..

which way did you vote or where you not eligible


not that nasty of  a question spy voted remain but is now a leave proponent


----------



## bimble (Oct 29, 2022)

Going on about the pure and righteous reasons why a handful of people voted leave in the referendum six years ago, I don't really get the point.
In what world does that even matter anymore?
Is it just saying 'well it might be a shitshow but my personal reasons for voting leave were good reasons' or is it that you still hope it will turn out in the fulness of time to have been a decisive blow to capitalism and neoliberalism ?


----------



## brogdale (Oct 29, 2022)

According to Ipsos, the Trusspocalypse events appears to have had an impact on public attitudes to Brexit:


----------



## bimble (Oct 29, 2022)

All the no difference people are like someone who bought a very expensive thing on credit that hasn’t made their lives any better so they should be counted with the negative impact slice.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 29, 2022)

bimble said:


> All the no difference people are like someone who bought a very expensive thing on credit that hasn’t made their lives any better so they should be counted with the negative impact slice.


ISWYM, but not “all”; if pressed, that would probably be the most appropriate response that I would be able to choose.


----------



## bimble (Oct 29, 2022)

Yeah. I’m just starting the weekend as I mean to go on, by being annoying.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 29, 2022)

bimble said:


> Yeah. I’m just starting the weekend as I mean to go on, by being annoying.


Fair enough; I’m just trying to get in an early argument myself before starting the weekend Geri-runs.


----------



## MrSki (Oct 29, 2022)

Worth a watch unless you are sick of the so called experts.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 29, 2022)

So no one admits to being on that rejoin march then?


----------



## bimble (Oct 29, 2022)

TopCat said:


> So no one admits to being on that rejoin march then?


Why bother going on a march for something that is inevitably going to happen anyway.
First it'll be just customs & standards alignment, and nobody will make a fuss, then in due course the actual rejoining process but that'll be a while yet.


----------



## philosophical (Oct 29, 2022)

Because the marches are on Saturday’s when the football is on. Alistair Campbell went to Sunderland verses Burnley.


----------



## bimble (Oct 29, 2022)

For the moment they all feel compelled to say exactly the same thing, but they'll stop mentioning it and just treat it like an embarrassing thing that happened once, as soon as they think its safe to do so.


----------



## Yossarian (Oct 29, 2022)

TopCat said:


> So no one admits to being on that rejoin march then?



How many pro-Brexit marches were you on? Did you maybe decide they were people you didn't want to march with?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 29, 2022)

bimble said:


> For the moment they all feel compelled to say exactly the same thing, but they'll stop mentioning it and just treat it like an embarrassing thing that happened once, as soon as they think its safe to do so.
> View attachment 349285


Which is no doubt why there's that law going through about deleting thousands of eu laws at the end of next year, lulling the brexiteers into a false sense of security clearly while sunak is secretly planning to align more closely with Europe.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 29, 2022)

bimble said:


> Why bother going on a march for something that is inevitably going to happen anyway.
> First it'll be just customs & standards alignment, and nobody will make a fuss, then in due course the actual rejoining process but that'll be a while yet.


You have read about this I suppose Britain faces chaos if it scraps EU laws, warns ex-Whitehall legal boss it would be nice if your prediction had some connection with reality


----------



## bimble (Oct 29, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> Which is no doubt why there's that law going through about deleting thousands of eu laws at the end of next year, lulling the brexiteers into a false sense of security clearly while sunak is secretly planning to align more closely with Europe.


i think they're binning that, JRM's law. 








						Brexit: Sunak considers easing UK plans to quickly bin retained EU laws
					

Rishi Sunak is considering scrapping plans to review or replace all retained EU laws by the end of 2023, while also U-turning on a pledge to create a




					www.cityam.com


----------



## Yossarian (Oct 29, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> Which is no doubt why there's that law going through about deleting thousands of eu laws at the end of next year, lulling the brexiteers into a false sense of security clearly while sunak is secretly planning to align more closely with Europe.



I think he promised 100 days, I'd almost forgotten about this ad..


----------



## Karl Masks (Oct 29, 2022)

bimble said:


> i think they're binning that, JRM's law.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


of course they are, diverging from standards will only further inhibit trade.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 29, 2022)

bimble said:


> i think they're binning that, JRM's law.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeh. That says nothing of the sort, merely that he's thinking about binning it. E2a it's difficult to see how someone recently described here as in hock to the erg expects to pull the wool over their eyes and fly in the face of the past six years of the tory decision to make brexit as hard as can be - I think he might kick the repeal of eu laws into the long grass for the next administration but there's no way the erg would allow sunak to align more closely with Europe


----------



## bimble (Oct 29, 2022)

he will not bin it, he'll kick into the very long grass. Even if it passes, which i very much doubt, "The Retained EU Law Bill which had its second reading in the House of Commons on Tuesday, does contain “a power of extension” that could allow the deadline to be pushed back to 2026, if necessary."


----------



## Boris Sprinkler (Oct 29, 2022)

bimble said:


> For the moment they all feel compelled to say exactly the same thing, but they'll stop mentioning it and just treat it like an embarrassing thing that happened once, as soon as they think its safe to do so.
> View attachment 349285


They are all thick as mince. 
For Brexit to have worked, it would have relied on British exceptionalism.
Now sure, boarding schools may tell you you are exceptional. In order to give you that headstart once mummy or daddy asks their friends about internships. 
A cossetted world of ilusions. Which they cannot see beyond because of their privilege. 
The man in the street is painfully aware he isn't exceptional, and his labour can be easily transferred to a man in the street elsewhere in the world.
Literally noone else in the world thinks Britiain is exceptional. Unless their interest is banking or arms deals. 
I used to buy alot of records from UK shops online. Now I don't, because I know it's going to be stuck with 20 quid customs fee each time. Everyone else I speak to says the same. Those small record shops are going to feel it. I assume it is the same in other industries. 
Privileged arseholes brainswashed half the population with lies via facebook.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 29, 2022)

bimble said:


> he will not bin it, he'll kick into the very long grass. Even if it passes,
> "The Bill includes an extension mechanism for the sunset of specified pieces of retained EU law until 2026. "


Is there any actual evidence for your claim about standards and customs tho?


----------



## bimble (Oct 29, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> Is there any actual evidence for your claim about standards and customs tho?


no. I am doing a reckon.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 29, 2022)

bimble said:


> no. I am doing a reckon.


That's a great step back from your assertion it's inevitable


----------



## bimble (Oct 29, 2022)

This is the most important bit of Rees Mogg's bill:


So it says whatever the new rules are that the UK comes up with (to replace EU law) they must be less 'burdonsome' to business. That's the whole point & always was.
Which means lower standards of food safety environment & workers rights, there in black and white.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 29, 2022)

bimble said:


> This is the most important bit of Rees Mogg's bill:
> View attachment 349289
> 
> So it says whatever the new rules are that the UK comes up with (to replace EU law) they must be less 'burdonsome' to business. That's the whole point & always was.
> Which means lower standards of food safety environment & workers rights, there in black and white.


This isn't supporting your assertion of er aligning standards. It's really weird to see you arguing against your recent posts


----------



## bimble (Oct 29, 2022)

I'm just saying I don't think Mogg and co will get their way in the end. I hope not anyway.


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 29, 2022)

Yossarian said:


> How many pro-Brexit marches were you on? Did you maybe decide they were people you didn't want to march with?
> 
> View attachment 349286


Fair point if that is a reason why you didn't attend the rejoin march. However who are/ where are the rejoiners that you would march with?


----------



## bimble (Oct 29, 2022)

This is interesting .
How come this is happening, maybe it’s just that post brexit people have been more worried about other things. Or maybe they just think we’ve got control back so that’s it job done.


----------



## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Oct 29, 2022)

editor said:


> This is what the Brexiteers fought for!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well this sucks. This was always my first thought when brexit didn't even have a name and was still only known as 'leaving the European union' . . . All I knew was that tories wanted to change employment law and couldn't because of the EU.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Oct 29, 2022)

TopCat said:


> So no one admits to being on that rejoin march then?




The wife said she’d have gone if she knew it was on when she saw the news about it that day


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Oct 29, 2022)

bimble said:


> This is interesting .
> How come this is happening, maybe it’s just that post brexit people have been more worried about other things. Or maybe they just think we’ve got control back so that’s it job done.View attachment 349302



The new narrative is that there is good, important and welcome immigration which arrives in the form of a reservoir of cheap labour. You can’t fail to have noted the Tories, media, CBI types making this point over and over again. Those bogs aren’t going to clean themselves, them pensioners need feeding and those lattes need serving up to middle class liberals.

Then there is bad immigration. The symbol of this is those arriving across the channel on boats. The endless Orwellian ‘crackdown’ will focus on ‘bad immigration’ with ever more lunatic ideas from ministers and commentators to ‘close the border whilst the overall number of migrants increases steadily each year without rivers of blood flowing.

The evidence - both from this poll, from the actual evidence of numbers arriving and from our own eyes and eyes - does suggest that those who like to paint Britain as under siege from racists and nativists, with migrants cowering from the English working class othered ‘Untermensch’ has been somewhat overdone.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 29, 2022)

bimble said:


> I'm just saying I don't think Mogg and co will get their way in the end. I hope not anyway.


I don't think Sunak's going to turn around and say oops we did it again, and align with European standards etc, the man who appoints the disgraced braverman home secretary isn't going to alienate the erg now or before 2025


----------



## Yossarian (Oct 29, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Fair point if that is a reason why you didn't attend the rejoin march. However who are/ where are the rejoiners that you would march with?



I wouldn't go on any rejoiner march - there was a mandate for Brexit and Britain left the EU less than three years ago, I think more years and more elections need to go by and a Labour government needs to have a shot at making Brexit work before rejoining can be seen as a serious option. Calling for it at this point is just going to piss off Brexit voters and push them towards the Tories, who will no doubt ramp up talk about being the true defenders of Brexit before the next GE.


----------



## not a trot (Oct 29, 2022)

Yossarian said:


> I wouldn't go on any rejoiner march - there was a mandate for Brexit and Britain left the EU less than three years ago, I think more years and more elections need to go by and a Labour government needs to have a shot at making Brexit work before rejoining can be seen as a serious option. Calling for it at this point is just going to piss off Brexit voters and push them towards the Tories, who will no doubt ramp up talk about being the true defenders of Brexit before the next GE.



And it's Brexit that will deliver these cunts another victory. Labour is the remoaner party in their eyes, and the media will encourage such bollocks too. A smaller majority will still be enough to see the absolute destruction of the NHS. Workers rights abolished etc.  So thankyou Brexiteers.


----------



## philosophical (Oct 29, 2022)

Yossarian said:


> I wouldn't go on any rejoiner march - there was a mandate for Brexit and Britain left the EU less than three years ago, I think more years and more elections need to go by and a Labour government needs to have a shot at making Brexit work before rejoining can be seen as a serious option. Calling for it at this point is just going to piss off Brexit voters and push them towards the Tories, who will no doubt ramp up talk about being the true defenders of Brexit before the next GE.



Maybe you think Britain left the EU, but the vote was for the whole of the UK.
Hasn’t happened after over six years.


----------



## contadino (Oct 29, 2022)

Yossarian said:


> Calling for it at this point is just going to piss off Brexit voters and push them towards the Tories, who will no doubt ramp up talk about being the true defenders of Brexit before the next GE.


Oh, Brexit voters are already well pissed off.


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 29, 2022)

tbf if you voted for brexit and the Tory party were floating the idea of allowing more immigration to get the economy going

you be a little pissed off


----------



## teqniq (Oct 29, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> The new narrative is that there is good, important and welcome immigration which arrives in the form of a reservoir of cheap labour. You can’t fail to have noted the Tories, media, CBI types making this point over and over again. Those bogs aren’t going to clean themselves, them pensioners need feeding and those lattes need serving up to middle class liberals.
> 
> Then there is bad immigration. The symbol of this is those arriving across the channel on boats. The endless Orwellian ‘crackdown’ will focus on ‘bad immigration’ with ever more lunatic ideas from ministers and commentators to ‘close the border whilst the overall number of migrants increases steadily each year without rivers of blood flowing.
> 
> The evidence - both from this poll, from the actual evidence of numbers arriving and from our own eyes and eyes - does suggest that those who like to paint Britain as under siege from racists and nativists, with migrants cowering from the English working class othered ‘Untermensch’ has been somewhat overdone.


Interestingly something I sometimes check because of my job is the Home Office shortage occupations list This is a list of jobs that asylum seekers can apply for and predictably many of the jobs require quite hight levels of qualifications - engineering/medical etc but also strangely including ballet dancers/choreographers. This list did not change much up until recently then I noticed a few months ago that care workers/managers had been added and now healthcare workers have their own list (this is new to me since I last looked). You can check out the list here:





__





						Skilled Worker visa: shortage occupations
					






					www.gov.uk
				




The link to the new healthcare list is on that page. Something to do with Brexit? Undoubtedly imo.


----------



## bimble (Oct 30, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> I don't think Sunak's going to turn around and say oops we did it again, and align with European standards etc, the man who appoints the disgraced braverman home secretary isn't going to alienate the erg now or before 2025


lets see what happens, but i think he will, as quietly as possible & just out of economic pragmatism. If not him then the next one. 

The once very brexity Telegraph has just published this thing saying  "six years after Britain voted to leave the European Union, all we've got to show for it so far is political, economic and financial chaos .. "more harmonious economic relations with our near neighbours are no longer simply a desirable goal, but a matter of urgent necessity. Splendid isolation is proving a far from happy disposition.."


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 30, 2022)

Does this article still hold true?









						‘Loud, obsessive, tribal’: the radicalisation of remain
					

The long read: They hate Boris Johnson and Jeremy Corbyn. They no longer trust the BBC. They love civil servants, legal experts and James O’Brien. And now, consumed by the battle against Brexit, hardcore remainers are no longer the moderates




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## teuchter (Oct 30, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Does this article still hold true?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Who are you asking and why?


----------



## gosub (Oct 30, 2022)

bimble said:


> lets see what happens, but i think he will, as quietly as possible & just out of economic pragmatism. If not him then the next one.
> 
> The once very brexity Telegraph has just published this thing saying  "six years after Britain voted to leave the European Union, all we've got to show for it so far is political, economic and financial chaos .. "more harmonious economic relations with our near neighbours are no longer simply a desirable goal, but a matter of urgent necessity. Splendid isolation is proving a far from happy disposition.."


Bit late in the day! Channel will be getting foggy this time of year,  chances are coninentals we be cut off again


----------



## bimble (Oct 30, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> The new narrative is that there is good, important and welcome immigration which arrives in the form of a reservoir of cheap labour. You can’t fail to have noted the Tories, media, CBI types making this point over and over again. Those bogs aren’t going to clean themselves, them pensioners need feeding and those lattes need serving up to middle class liberals.
> 
> Then there is bad immigration. The symbol of this is those arriving across the channel on boats. The endless Orwellian ‘crackdown’ will focus on ‘bad immigration’ with ever more lunatic ideas from ministers and commentators to ‘close the border whilst the overall number of migrants increases steadily each year without rivers of blood flowing.
> 
> The evidence - both from this poll, from the actual evidence of numbers arriving and from our own eyes and eyes - does suggest that those who like to paint Britain as under siege from racists and nativists, with migrants cowering from the English working class othered ‘Untermensch’ has been somewhat overdone.


Yes but what changed in 2016 to make people all of a sudden stop putting immigration high up in their list of concerns?

Most likely answer is a sad one to do with how much power the leave campaigns and leave-backing newspapers had in the runup to the referendum isn’t it.


----------



## bimble (Nov 2, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> I don't think Sunak's going to turn around and say oops we did it again, and align with European standards etc, the man who appoints the disgraced braverman home secretary isn't going to alienate the erg now or before 2025


You might be right.
I forgot that he put this person in as trade secretary, someone who thinks that trade barriers are good for free trade, or something, and that ideology will triumph over economics.







__





						Bloomberg - Are you a robot?
					





					www.bloomberg.com


----------



## bimble (Nov 4, 2022)

This hasn’t aged well at all.


----------



## Karl Masks (Nov 4, 2022)

bimble said:


> This hasn’t aged well at all.



JFC, if they only knew...


----------



## ska invita (Nov 4, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> JFC, if they only knew...


They knew


----------



## Karl Masks (Nov 4, 2022)

ska invita said:


> They knew


I meant the voters. Even if Leave.EU knew, they didn't care so it doesn't matter either way.


----------



## Yossarian (Nov 4, 2022)

I wouldn't be that surprised if they recycled the ad as "This is the Brexit wonderland Remoaners stole from you."


----------



## Ax^ (Nov 4, 2022)

id only we'd kept the faith


----------



## brogdale (Nov 5, 2022)

The bus.


----------



## stdP (Nov 5, 2022)

brogdale said:


> The bus.
> 
> View attachment 350422



Bus be damned - given that this rise in unmet healthcare needs started in 2016, it's pretty clear that it's still the bitter and resentful remoaniacs holding the rest of us back.


----------



## Dandred (Nov 6, 2022)

Anyone know who funds this crappy site? Seems full of bullshit.





__





						Brexit facts for voters in the UK, based on official EU and UK information
					

Brexit Facts4EU.Org is the most prolific researcher and publisher of original Brexit facts in the World since 2015. Facts researched from official EU & UK sources.




					facts4eu.org


----------



## bimble (Nov 11, 2022)

I think "bespoke supply problem" is an inspired turn of phrase. 









						Why is the UK struggling more than any other big country?
					

The UK is the only G7 nation whose economy is smaller than it was before the Covid pandemic.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## Yossarian (Nov 11, 2022)

Dandred said:


> Anyone know who funds this crappy site? Seems full of bullshit.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



They say they're "ordinary people, mostly but not exclusively in business, previously minding our own business and living our everyday lives. We just felt we had to step up to the plate."

"For Remoaners obsessed with conspiracy theories, we should mention that we have funded 90% of the costs ourselves, with the balance coming from small, individual public subscriptions that have helped us to keep going somehow. None of the subscribers have so far have been named Vladimir. Sorry to disappoint Remainers who can't deal with facts and prefer to try to attack us personally, but the money is infinitessimally small compared to the funding of Remain campaigns. We suggest Remainers address the facts rather than imaginary conspiracy theories."

I don't know what the fuck's going on with their Brexit Toolbox, that hammer appears to be defying gravity.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 11, 2022)

Dandred said:


> Anyone know who funds this crappy site? Seems full of bullshit.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Read that as bullshit facts about brexit


----------



## Yossarian (Nov 11, 2022)

They had a sideline in "facts" on COVID, which they apparently viewed as some kind of hoax designed to thwart Brexit.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Nov 11, 2022)

bimble said:


> This is interesting .
> How come this is happening, maybe it’s just that post brexit people have been more worried about other things. Or maybe they just think we’ve got control back so that’s it job done.View attachment 349302


Or the right wing newspapers have stopped pushing it. It was always just a means to an end for them anyway.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 11, 2022)

bimble said:


> This is interesting .
> How come this is happening, maybe it’s just that post brexit people have been more worried about other things. Or maybe they just think we’ve got control back so that’s it job done.View attachment 349302


Maybe the only people worried about immigration are tory voters


----------



## bimble (Nov 11, 2022)

sleaterkinney said:


> Or the right wing newspapers have stopped pushing it. It was always just a means to an end for them anyway.


Yes I think it is this, but to what end, why would they the owners of these papers have seriously wanted brexit? that i can't figure out at all. They've been pushing it again now, in hopes of saving the conservative party from a long wilderness years, and maybe that's what it was back then too, maybe they just thought it'd be good for the continued dominance of the party they prefer, which it was.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 11, 2022)

bimble said:


> Yes I think it is this, but to what end, why would they the owners of these papers have seriously wanted brexit? that i can't figure out at all. They've been pushing it again now, in hopes of saving the conservative party from a long wilderness years, and maybe that's what it was back then too, maybe they just thought it'd be good for the continued dominance of the party they prefer, which it was.


Probably a great deal of truth in that, but also the case that the billionaire class, that have no allegiance to national polities or economies, saw the potential to accelerate the neoliberal agenda of state consolidation and regressive wealth transfer by undermining the supra-state.


----------



## Raheem (Nov 11, 2022)

bimble said:


> Yes I think it is this, but to what end, why would they the owners of these papers have seriously wanted brexit?


Historically, media barons didn't like the EU because of its regulation of media plurality, which restricts the number of newspapers, TV stations etc you can buy, particularly cross-border ownership.

Not sure Brexit has really changed this very much, but it's part of the why.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 11, 2022)

Very good from David Edgerton (hey, remainers..he’s one of you as well):









						The woes of startup Britishvolt should shock the UK out of its Brexit self-delusion | David Edgerton
					

The government must accept the limitations of its industrial strategy and focus on services that improve people’s lives, says David Edgerton, professor of modern British history




					www.theguardian.com
				




This is precisely the type of post Brexit economic discussion we should be having: about the development of a national everyday economy.


----------



## bimble (Nov 11, 2022)

Also its likely that these papers & their owners didn't spend much time seriously considering that they might actually win the prize, of a real Brexit. like Farage himself, they probably thought it was just an expedient posture a rebellious stance to take, and did not expect leave to actually win the referendum.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 12, 2022)

brogdale said:


> The bus.
> 
> View attachment 350422



The wheels on the bus go..

...bloody flying off!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 12, 2022)

Yossarian said:


> They say they're "ordinary people, mostly but not exclusively in business, previously minding our own business and living our everyday lives. We just felt we had to step up to the plate."
> 
> "For Remoaners obsessed with conspiracy theories, we should mention that we have funded 90% of the costs ourselves, with the balance coming from small, individual public subscriptions that have helped us to keep going somehow. None of the subscribers have so far have been named Vladimir. Sorry to disappoint Remainers who can't deal with facts and prefer to try to attack us personally, but the money is infinitessimally small compared to the funding of Remain campaigns. We suggest Remainers address the facts rather than imaginary conspiracy theories."
> 
> ...



Smells like some dog wankers from Reform UK.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 12, 2022)

bimble said:


> Also its likely that these papers & their owners didn't spend much time seriously considering that they might actually win the prize, of a real Brexit. like Farage himself, they probably thought it was just an expedient posture a rebellious stance to take, and did not expect leave to actually win the referendum.


& more importantly, didn't give a shit what happened to the 99% if "their" side did win.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Nov 12, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Very good from David Edgerton (hey, remainers..he’s one of you as well):
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It doesn’t matter if it’s a startup or an existing company, we’ve cut ourselves out of a big marketplace for manufactured goods and also cut out European funding for research. It’s not boosterism to make stuff here. Manufacturing is important.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Nov 12, 2022)

Yossarian said:


> They say they're "ordinary people, mostly but not exclusively in business, previously minding our own business and living our everyday lives. We just felt we had to step up to the plate."
> 
> "For Remoaners obsessed with conspiracy theories, we should mention that we have funded 90% of the costs ourselves, with the balance coming from small, individual public subscriptions that have helped us to keep going somehow. None of the subscribers have so far have been named Vladimir. Sorry to disappoint Remainers who can't deal with facts and prefer to try to attack us personally, but the money is infinitessimally small compared to the funding of Remain campaigns. We suggest Remainers address the facts rather than imaginary conspiracy theories."
> 
> ...


Especially as Russian interference is a matter of public record:


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 12, 2022)

sleaterkinney said:


> we’ve cut ourselves out of a big marketplace for manufactured goods



How have we ‘cut ourselves out’ exactly? Do you mean by the withdrawal agreement that provides a Trade and Cooperation Agreement (“TCA”), which provides a tariff-free environment for goods originating in the UK and the EU being exported into the customs territory of the other party”. 



sleaterkinney said:


> It’s not boosterism to make stuff here. Manufacturing is important.



Correct. But that’s not Edgerton’s argument


----------



## Karl Masks (Nov 12, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> How have we ‘cut ourselves out’ exactly? Do you mean by the withdrawal agreement that provides a Trade and Cooperation Agreement (“TCA”), which provides a tariff-free environment for goods originating in the UK and the EU being exported into the customs territory of the other party”.


This is so disingenuous I can only assume you're deliberately dense.

Our economy has shrunk by billions, for the foreseeable future. Trade now requires crippling amounts of paperwork and we aren't even checking the borders.

Again; show us the benefits of brexit. Not the sad anarcho fantasy you think happened. Why are you even using the term 'remainer'?


----------



## Ax^ (Nov 12, 2022)

hmm not be in here in a whilst but whilst we deal with the aftermath of the ERG groups pick of PM Liz Truss

we can all be take the next 10 years of austerity on the chin  as  a benefit of Brexit


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 12, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> This is so disingenuous I can only assume you're deliberately dense.
> 
> Our economy has shrunk by billions, for the foreseeable future. Trade now requires crippling amounts of paperwork and we aren't even checking the borders.
> 
> Again; show us the benefits of brexit. Not the sad anarcho fantasy you think happened. Why are you even using the term 'remainer'?


Say what you like about Smokeandsteam but he's not an anarchist.


----------



## Mezzer (Nov 12, 2022)

Not even a mention.  Surely any reasonable analysis would have at the very least partially attributed the UKs position to being Brexit driven. 









						Why Britain is worse off than others in the big economic crunch
					

Unlike many of its neighbours, the UK has not yet returned to pre-pandemic GDP levels




					www.telegraph.co.uk


----------



## Ax^ (Nov 12, 2022)

it because the remainers did not believe enough


----------



## Serge Forward (Nov 13, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> This is so disingenuous I can only assume you're deliberately dense.
> 
> Our economy has shrunk by billions, for the foreseeable future. Trade now requires crippling amounts of paperwork and we aren't even checking the borders.
> 
> Again; show us the benefits of brexit. Not the sad anarcho fantasy you think happened. Why are you even using the term 'remainer'?


"Anarcho fantasy" ??? What are you on about?


----------



## _Russ_ (Nov 13, 2022)

sleaterkinney said:


> Especially as Russian interference is a matter of public record:



Not quite, the piece you refer to is a record of one person's opinion of facts and circumstances that lead him to believe there was Russian Interference, he may be correct


----------



## Karl Masks (Nov 13, 2022)

Serge Forward said:


> "Anarcho fantasy" ??? What are you on about?


lexiteers presumably voted because they thought it would embolden them politically


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Nov 13, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> lexiteers presumably voted because they thought it would embolden them politically


That's a lot of presumption going on there.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## Karl Masks (Nov 13, 2022)

Louis MacNeice said:


> That's a lot of presumption going on there.
> 
> Cheers - Louis MacNeice


Yes, I'm going to assume lexiteers voted to leave because they thought we'd be better off outside the EU


----------



## philosophical (Nov 13, 2022)

Nobody knows for certain what each leave voter thought.
However leave means two different systems side by side with a land border between them in Ireland.
Lexiter wankers try to retrofit a justification that they were secretly working towards a United Ireland.
Were they too stupid to realise four basic things before voting, what ‘leave’ means, what ‘remain’ means, what the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is, and what the European Union is?
Those four things were written on the ballot paper people marked their cross on.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Nov 13, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> Yes, I'm going to assume lexiteers voted to leave because they thought we'd be better off outside the EU


That's not what you typed, as you well know you little scamp.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## xenon (Nov 13, 2022)

philosophical said:


> Nobody knows for certain what each leave voter thought.
> However leave means two different systems side by side with a land border between them in Ireland.
> Lexiter wankers try to retrofit a justification that they were secretly working towards a United Ireland.
> Were they too stupid to realise four basic things before voting, what ‘leave’ means, what ‘remain’ means, what the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is, and what the European Union is?
> Those four things were written on the ballot paper people marked their cross on.



And has been said dozens of times already. Why should the majority of the UK public be prohibited from exercising their right to leave a trading block because of the situation in NI. This is a situation the politicians should have made provisions for. Blaming voters for the mess is entirely wrongheaded and counter productive.

That isn't to say individuals may have had reasons for voting either way that we might argue with but the onus for this sorry state of affairs has always been down to the politicians and those behind the mendatious campaigning.


----------



## A380 (Nov 13, 2022)

Glorious lexit is coming, any day now... any day...


----------



## xenon (Nov 13, 2022)

Brexit is a fucking shit show what ever way you look at it.


----------



## Karl Masks (Nov 13, 2022)

Louis MacNeice said:


> That's not what you typed, as you well know you little scamp.
> 
> Cheers - Louis MacNeice



Yes, I used different words to convey the same point: lexiteers thought leaving would be beneficial in all the ways that matter. So, I assume, they voted to politically empower themselves.


----------



## Karl Masks (Nov 13, 2022)

xenon said:


> Brexit is a fucking shit show what ever way you look at it.


Was never going to be anything else. one look at who advocated and campaigned for it should have been enough to send genuine radicals running for the hills. Instead they stood on a platform with fascists that lied to them.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Nov 13, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> Yes, I used different words to convey the same point: lexiteers thought leaving would be beneficial in all the ways that matter. So, I assume, they voted to politically empower themselves.


Different words mean different things; as a result your posts mean different things. This is true whatever your intention.

It also does nothing to address the two gaping holes in your first offering; the first of which concerns the difference between would and could, while the second I'll leave you and all other remoaners to work out.

Cheers  - Louis MacNeice


----------



## philosophical (Nov 13, 2022)

xenon said:


> And has been said dozens of times already. Why should the majority of the UK public be prohibited from exercising their right to leave a trading block because of the situation in NI. This is a situation the politicians should have made provisions for. Blaming voters for the mess is entirely wrongheaded and counter productive.
> 
> That isn't to say individuals may have had reasons for voting either way that we might argue with but the onus for this sorry state of affairs has always been down to the politicians and those behind the mendatious campaigning.



One provision the politicians made with regard to Northern Ireland was the Belfast Agreement.


----------



## Karl Masks (Nov 13, 2022)

Louis MacNeice said:


> Different words mean different things; as a result your posts mean different things. This is true whatever your intention.
> 
> It also does nothing to address the two gaping holes in your first offering; the first of which concerns the difference between would and could, while the second I'll leave you and all other removers to work out.
> 
> Cheers  - Louis MacNeice


Again: lexiteers voted because they thought leaving would be beneficial. Agree?


----------



## Serge Forward (Nov 13, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> lexiteers presumably voted because they thought it would embolden them politically


And the "anarcho fantasy" bit?


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 13, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> Was never going to be anything else. one look at who advocated and campaigned for it should have been enough to send genuine radicals running for the hills. Instead they stood on a platform with fascists that lied to them.


Unlike the racists on the remain side who were utterly truthful I suppose


----------



## xenon (Nov 13, 2022)

philosophical said:


> One provision the politicians made with regard to Northern Ireland was the Belfast Agreement.



Yes but since then. Cameron et al should have probably made plane some possible resolutions to the situation in NI before the referendam. Again, the responsibility is on those with the power to have done something about it. Telling the UK populas at large they must forever be tied to the EU because of the Good Friday agreement is profoundly undemocratic.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Nov 13, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> Was never going to be anything else. one look at who advocated and campaigned for it should have been enough to send genuine *radicals* running for the hills. Instead they stood on a platform with fascists that lied to them.


Yeah nothing says 'radical' more than being in the E fucking U


----------



## philosophical (Nov 13, 2022)

xenon said:


> Yes but since then. Cameron et al should have probably made plane some possible resolutions to the situation in NI before the referendam. Again, the responsibility is on those with the power to have done something about it. Telling the UK populas at large they must forever be tied to the EU because of the Good Friday agreement is profoundly undemocratic.



I disagree. The GFA was fashioned by democratically elected politicians, and cemented by a referendum, what is profoundly undemocratic about that?
Those in power made the agreement, one main driver was to stop the bloodshed of the troubles, it was a tough achievement.
What possible resolutions do you think could have been set out before the 2016 referendum?


----------



## xenon (Nov 13, 2022)

philosophical said:


> I disagree. The GFA was fashioned by democratically elected politicians, and cemented by a referendum, what is profoundly undemocratic about that?
> Those in power made the agreement, one main driver was to stop the bloodshed of the troubles, it was a tough achievement.
> What possible resolutions do you think could have been set out before the 2016 referendum?



I'm saying telling the UK populus they are bound forever more to be part of the EU because of the GFA is profoundly undemocratic.

for 1. What they could have done is say we're staying in the customs union. I'm not going to do the govt's work for them and come up with other solutions for a problem I had no hand in creating just for the sake of discussion.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 13, 2022)

philosophical said:


> I disagree. The GFA was fashioned by democratically elected politicians, and cemented by a referendum, what is profoundly undemocratic about that?
> Those in power made the agreement, one main driver was to stop the bloodshed of the troubles, it was a tough achievement.
> What possible resolutions do you think could have been set out before the 2016 referendum?


Whoa there. There were two referenda, the one on the gfa, the other on getting rid of articles 2 & 3 from the Irish constitution.  And yeh it is profoundly undemocratic because of this. No one in the southern state voted on the gfa. Tbh I don't suppose anyone in the six counties voted for what's happened in the last 24 years


----------



## inva (Nov 13, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> Was never going to be anything else. one look at who advocated and campaigned for it should have been enough to send genuine radicals running for the hills. Instead they stood on a platform with fascists that lied to them.


As I remember it Lexit was a campaign to leave the EU under a left wing government, so basically you were supporting Lexit when you were shouting at all the 'anarchists' to vote Labour in 2017 👍


----------



## philosophical (Nov 13, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> Whoa there. There were two referenda, the one on the gfa, the other on getting rid of articles 2 & 3 from the Irish constitution.  And yeh it is profoundly undemocratic because of this. No one in the southern state voted on the gfa. Tbh I don't suppose anyone in the six counties voted for what's happened in the last 24 years


Yes there were two referenda. I have been clumsy in trying to streamline my point. I don’t see things so much in strata of referenda, as in the chronology.
When the 2016 referendum happened, the GFA was already in place wasn’t it? The GFA impacts the UK population if Northern Ireland is regarded as being in the UK.
Do you think politicians ought to have outlined some scenarios with regard to the Irish border as a plan a,b,c and so on to the UK population, taking into account the GFA, before the 2016 referendum? It didn’t happen, so voters were left to deal with the situation we had, not some fantasy ‘it’ll be all right on the night’ notion.


----------



## Karl Masks (Nov 13, 2022)

inva said:


> As I remember it Lexit was a campaign to leave the EU under a left wing government, so basically you were supporting Lexit when you were shouting at all the 'anarchists' to vote Labour in 2017 👍


What left wing government?


----------



## Karl Masks (Nov 13, 2022)

Serge Forward said:


> And the "anarcho fantasy" bit?


the idea that leaving the EU would somehow collapse it, or that a brexit government would ever nationalise anything


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Nov 13, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> Again: lexiteers voted because they thought leaving would be beneficial. Agree?


You're still not getting the difference between could and would, let alone having the self awareness to step away from claims of knowing what's in everybody else's (or at least all 'lexiteers') heads.

I hope it's helping you because it's doing very little for the discussion of brexit and its aftermath.

Cheers  - Louis MacNeice


----------



## inva (Nov 13, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> What left wing government?


Labour under Corbyn was presumably the idea at the time, who would then have been in charge of the withdrawal.


----------



## two sheds (Nov 13, 2022)

I'd have voted for that - but couldn't bring myself to vote for brexit under a tory government


----------



## inva (Nov 13, 2022)

two sheds said:


> I'd have voted for that - but couldn't bring myself to vote for brexit under a tory government


If it hadn't of been for remainer sabotage in 2019 we'd be living in a lexit wonderland right now 😊


----------



## Karl Masks (Nov 13, 2022)

inva said:


> If it hadn't of been for remainer sabotage in 2019 we'd be living in a lexit wonderland right now 😊


Actual footage of Lexit Wonderland


----------



## Karl Masks (Nov 13, 2022)

Louis MacNeice said:


> You're still not getting the difference between could and would, let alone having the self awareness to step away from claims of knowing what's in everybody else's (or at least all 'lexiteers') heads.
> 
> I hope it's helping you because it's doing very little for the discussion of brexit and its aftermath.
> 
> Cheers  - Louis MacNeice


I don't know about you, but I'm still waiting to hear from the brexit voters hereabouts what the benefits are? 

Do you know of any?


----------



## Artaxerxes (Nov 13, 2022)

A380 said:


> Glorious lexit is coming, any day now... any day...




You’ll take your Starmer and like it


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 13, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> the idea that leaving the EU would somehow collapse it, or that a brexit government would ever nationalise anything


The eu will collapse and a brexit government took lner back into public ownership


----------



## Serge Forward (Nov 14, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> the idea that leaving the EU would somehow collapse it, or that a brexit government would ever nationalise anything


And what has that to do with "anarcho" anything? Your words make no sense.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Nov 14, 2022)

_Russ_ said:


> Not quite, the piece you refer to is a record of one person's opinion of facts and circumstances that lead him to believe there was Russian Interference, he may be correct


Have you actually read the link?. It’s a woman.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 14, 2022)

Serge Forward said:


> And what has that to do with "anarcho" anything? Your words make no sense.


it's the only thing that makes him halfway tolerable


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 14, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> Say what you like about Smokeandsteam but he's not an anarchist.



I do have a sneaking regard for libertarian communists though....


----------



## The39thStep (Nov 14, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I do have a sneaking regard for libertarian communists though....


Coming to terms with late onset of libertarian socialism


----------



## brogdale (Nov 14, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Coming to terms with late onset of libertarian socialism


ouch


----------



## _Russ_ (Nov 14, 2022)

sleaterkinney said:


> Have you actually read the link?. It’s a woman.


Yes I read it and despite my little gender mix up (which affects nothing in the post and is more like the sort of impotent criticism I would expect from that Pickman twat) I actually understood it, instead of pretending it was something it isnt.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 14, 2022)

_Russ_ said:


> Yes I read it and despite my little gender mix up (which affects nothing in the post and is more like the sort of impotent criticism I would expect from that Pickman twat) I actually understood it, instead of pretending it was something it isnt.


now see if you can understand something else before bigging yourself up about your levels of comprehension


----------



## bimble (Nov 14, 2022)

How many years is it going to take before people like Jeremy hunt feel its safe for them and their stupid political party to admit that brexit has been a fucking disaster. I'm sick of it, the lying and the damage, its no longer hypothetical its just a fact, and he goes on tv to talk about the 'black hole in the country's finances', sits in front of a chart that shows we are the only G7 country worse off now than before the pandemic and says he reckons we just haven't unleashed the benefits yet.
How much longer are they just going to lie about it like its a new state religion, even the ones like him who never wanted the bloody thing in the first place.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 14, 2022)

bimble said:


> How many years is it going to take before people like Jeremy hunt feel its safe for them and their stupid political party to admit that brexit has been a fucking disaster. I'm sick of it, the lying and the damage, its no longer hypothetical its just a fact, and he goes on tv to talk about the 'black hole in the country's finances', sits in front of a chart that shows we are the only G7 country worse off now than before the pandemic and says he reckons we just haven't unleashed the benefits yet.
> How much longer are they just going to lie about it like its a new state religion, even the ones like him who never wanted the bloody thing in the first place.


the answer is, sadly, the number of years it'll take before the country answers john lydon's question at winterland, ever get the feeling you've been cheated?


----------



## sleaterkinney (Nov 14, 2022)

_Russ_ said:


> Yes I read it and despite my little gender mix up (which affects nothing in the post and is more like the sort of impotent criticism I would expect from that Pickman twat) I actually understood it, instead of pretending it was something it isnt.


It's from a very prominent brexiteer.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 14, 2022)

bimble said:


> How many years is it going to take before people like Jeremy hunt feel its safe for them and their stupid political party to admit that brexit has been a fucking disaster. I'm sick of it, the lying and the damage, its no longer hypothetical its just a fact, and he goes on tv to talk about the 'black hole in the country's finances', sits in front of a chart that shows we are the only G7 country worse off now than before the pandemic and says he reckons we just haven't unleashed the benefits yet.
> How much longer are they just going to lie about it like its a new state religion, even the ones like him who never wanted the bloody thing in the first place.


They won't ever admit that principally because, for the interests that they represent, it hasn't been a disaster.


----------



## bimble (Nov 14, 2022)

brogdale said:


> They won't ever admit that principally because, for the interests that they represent, it hasn't been a disaster.


For what interests has it been beneficial so far ? Apart from the tory party itself just as a political party, it may have helped them for a time, but who else? (real question, genuinely don't know).


----------



## brogdale (Nov 14, 2022)

bimble said:


> For what interests has it been beneficial so far ? Apart from the tory party itself just as a political party, it may have helped them for a time, but who else? (real question, genuinely don't know).


Those interests that regarded the bureaucracy and regulation of the supra state as a brake on their returns/accumulation. Global, financialised capital is more than happy to see polities free to accelerate supply side "reforms" that enable populations to be exploited more efficiently.


----------



## bimble (Nov 14, 2022)

brogdale said:


> Those interests that regarded the bureaucracy and regulation of the supra state as a brake on their returns/accumulation. Global, financialised capital is more than happy to see polities free to accelerate supply side "reforms" that enable populations to be exploited more efficiently.


yeah but that hasnt happened yet has it, its just an idea, so far they are just paying more to fly their fruit pickers over from Nepal and stuff, and paying more to export and import. And this sort of thing, idk if global capital cares where it’s traded but the big financial interests of uk are not rejoicing .








						Paris overtakes London as Europe's most valuable stock market
					

London has lost its position as Europe’s most valuable stock market, as Britain’s economic downturn continues to weigh on listed UK companies.




					www.investmentweek.co.uk
				




I really think it’s just become a taboo now for all politicians, the massive elephant in the crumbling room. It’s just impossible for them to say a bad word about brexit cos they’ve all bought the idea that it was the Will Of The People.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 14, 2022)

bimble said:


> yeah but that hasnt happened yet has it, its just an idea, so far they are just paying more to fly their fruit pickers over from Nepal and stuff, and paying more to export and import. And this sort of thing, idk if global capital cares where it’s traded but the big financial interests of uk are not rejoicing .
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Financialised globalised capital not fruit farmers.


----------



## bimble (Nov 14, 2022)

brogdale said:


> Financialised globalised capital not fruit farmers.
> 
> View attachment 351515


You’re saying brexit has been good for profits ? How though.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 14, 2022)

bimble said:


> You’re saying brexit has been good for profits ? How though.


If it had the potential to harm them it wouldn't have happened.


----------



## bimble (Nov 14, 2022)

But everyone who isn't lying does seem to agree that brexit has led to economic contracation, predictions of a longer and worse recession than if we hadn't brexited are not partisan or controversial.





						Brexit analysis - Office for Budget Responsibility
					

Since the announcement of the EU referendum we have been producing analysis and writing about the potential effects of Brexit on the economy and public finances. We have compiled our assumptions, judgements and analysis on this page.




					obr.uk
				




If somebody is getting rich from brexit I just want to know who, cos that would count as a benefit, maybe, even if it's just for that person. Not even the hoover man is happy is he, and there's loads of whining from people like this:








						‘Not the Brexit I wanted’: Next boss calls for more foreign workers in UK
					

Leave backer Lord Wolfson says UK must let in much-needed overseas workers to plug chronic labour shortages




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## brogdale (Nov 14, 2022)

A slightly less flippant answer might be that the interests served by the right party of capital do not rely on the economy of the UK to make their returns/accumulation, so some deregualtion in one polity to free up/accelarate neoliberal reforms is fine by them. Just a useful little test case of how far things can be taken without the pesky drag of the supra state.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 14, 2022)

The Guardian alerts me to another brexit benefit:


----------



## bimble (Nov 14, 2022)

And those silly Ukrainians went and put an eu flag up in Kherson, the ungrateful bastards.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 14, 2022)

lol; someone's worked out there's farmers in their constituency


----------



## brogdale (Nov 14, 2022)

and the Truss legacy lives on...


----------



## two sheds (Nov 14, 2022)

Err now I'm not a minister I don't need to lie ....


----------



## TopCat (Nov 14, 2022)

bimble said:


> And those silly Ukrainians went and put an eu flag up in Kherson, the ungrateful bastards.


The _von der_ _Leyen Brigade._


----------



## bimble (Nov 14, 2022)

Even my next door neighbour is moaning about brexit now every time I have the misfortune of seeing him, and he was more than happy to vote for it.
I think the politicians are just lagging way behind, or else they think that the country is full of people who are too embarrassed to admit that brexit is basically a Boaty mcBoatface.
They think their job depends on politely covering up that embarrassment until it stops hurting.


----------



## The39thStep (Nov 14, 2022)

Second home owners for rejoin


----------



## bimble (Nov 14, 2022)

Brexit is absolutely a Boaty McBoatface isnt it, just less of a laugh.
Didn't realise that was the very same year.


----------



## contadino (Nov 14, 2022)

bimble said:


> Even my next door neighbour is moaning about brexit now every time I have the misfortune of seeing him, and he was more than happy to vote for it.
> I think the politicians are just lagging way behind, or else they think that the country is full of people who are too embarrassed to admit that brexit is basically a Boaty mcBoatface.
> They think their job depends on politely covering up that embarrassment until it stops hurting.


They'll all be long gone by the time it's no longer a massive drag on the public finances. As will most of the welfare state.


----------



## bimble (Nov 14, 2022)

If you're on here posting Hilarious brexiteer quips still now, instead of looking at the reality of the consequences of it, you're just a boaty mcboatface extremist. It hasn't been funny for a while.


----------



## Karl Masks (Nov 14, 2022)

bimble said:


> How many years is it going to take before people like Jeremy hunt feel its safe for them and their stupid political party to admit that brexit has been a fucking disaster. I'm sick of it, the lying and the damage, its no longer hypothetical its just a fact, and he goes on tv to talk about the 'black hole in the country's finances', sits in front of a chart that shows we are the only G7 country worse off now than before the pandemic and says he reckons we just haven't unleashed the benefits yet.
> How much longer are they just going to lie about it like its a new state religion, even the ones like him who never wanted the bloody thing in the first place.


Until Labour are in power and can safely be blamed


----------



## brogdale (Nov 14, 2022)

bimble said:


> Even my next door neighbour is moaning about brexit now every time I have the misfortune of seeing him, and he was more than happy to vote for it.
> I think the politicians are just lagging way behind, or else they think that the country is full of people who are too embarrassed to admit that brexit is basically a Boaty mcBoatface.
> They think their job depends on politely covering up that embarrassment until it stops hurting.


Is your neighbour embarrassed?


----------



## Karl Masks (Nov 14, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I do have a sneaking regard for libertarian communists though....


as well as lassaiz faire capitalists


----------



## bimble (Nov 14, 2022)

brogdale said:


> Is your neighbour embarrassed?


I think he's coming close to it, not quite there maybe but nearly. It is very very hard to admit you did a foolish thing. I said to him the other day that at some point I think it’ll be reversed, when enough people are ready to say it was a mistake, and he just sort of stood there.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 14, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> as well as lassaiz faire capitalists



Give it a rest ya daft twat


----------



## Karl Masks (Nov 14, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Give it a rest ya daft twat


Thought of any brexit benefits yet?


----------



## brogdale (Nov 14, 2022)

bimble said:


> I think he's coming close to it, not quite there maybe but nearly. It is very very hard to admit you did a foolish thing. I said to him the other day that at some point I think it’ll be reversed, when enough people are ready to say it was a mistake, and he just sort of stood there.


Foolish sounds a bit harsh; millions voted Leave in good faith based on what the campaigns had told them. I think anger might be a more appropriate response from folk who feel that they were misled/used.


----------



## 8ball (Nov 14, 2022)

brogdale said:


> Foolish sounds a bit harsh; millions voted Leave in good faith based on what the campaigns had told them. I think anger might be a more appropriate response from folk who feel that they were misled/used.



I've only met one Brexiter who was angry about what was written on that bus.


----------



## bimble (Nov 14, 2022)

brogdale said:


> Foolish sounds a bit harsh; millions voted Leave in good faith based on what the campaigns had told them. I think anger might be a more appropriate response from folk who feel that they were misled/used.


Yeah, I’m just thinking of him, who is an unequivocal fool with a house in France that he can’t move to now the twat. what he said at the time was that it wouldn’t change anything, and he meant it wouldn’t impact him personally, so he’s affronted to realise it has changed things, for himself.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 14, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> Thought of any brexit benefits yet?



Answered that some time ago (#10797).

Thought how you’ve ended up on the same side as Blair, Cameron, the CBI, the Institute of Directors, Starmer, Ed Davey, Sturgeon, Liz Truss, Gina Millar, Tom Watson, Paul Mason and loads of smug middle class celebz given that you seem to think that whichever side you backed means you ‘support’ everyone else who did?


----------



## 8ball (Nov 14, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Though how you’ve ended up on the same side as....


Oh, come on - this is piss weak.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 14, 2022)

bimble said:


> Yeah, I’m just thinking of him, who is an unequivocal fool with a house in France that he can’t move to now the twat. what he said at the time was that it wouldn’t change anything, and he meant it wouldn’t impact him personally, so he’s affronted to realise it has changed things, for himself.


Increased supply of housing to the (French) property market -> lower prices might just be a brexit benefit?


----------



## sleaterkinney (Nov 14, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Answered that some time ago (#10797).
> 
> Thought how you’ve ended up on the same side as Blair, Cameron, the CBI, the Institute of Directors, Starmer, Ed Davey, Sturgeon, Liz Truss, Gina Millar, Tom Watson, Paul Mason and loads of smug middle class celebz given that you seem to think that whichever side you backed means you ‘support’ everyone else who did?


I’d take that lot over Farage any day.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 14, 2022)

8ball said:


> Oh, come on - this is piss weak.


I agree. It’s pathetic. I’m quoting back Karl’s argumen that all those who voted leave support ‘laissez faire capitalism’


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 14, 2022)

sleaterkinney said:


> I’d take that lot over Farage any day.



I don’t doubt it


----------



## 8ball (Nov 14, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I agree. It’s pathetic. I’m quoting back Karl’s logic that all those who voted leave support ‘laissez faire capitalism’



I guess if it's countering a piss-weak argument with another make a point...

Sure people can agree that there are arseholes on both sides with this argument.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 14, 2022)

8ball said:


> I guess if it's countering a piss-weak argument with another make a point...
> 
> Sure people can agree that there are arseholes on both sides with this argument.



I’d have thought it went without saying that the leaders of both sides are politically repulsive. But, looking at some of the comments on here, clearly not


----------



## bimble (Nov 14, 2022)

is it 2016 again?
what the fuck is the point of arguing who was on what side back then.


----------



## 8ball (Nov 14, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I’d have thought it went without saying that the leaders of both sides are politically repulsive. But, looking at some of the comments on here, clearly not



I don't dip into this subject very often (having a hyper-minority take on things), but I'd hope posters could agree that is fairly self-evident.


----------



## Serge Forward (Nov 14, 2022)

8ball said:


> I guess if it's countering a piss-weak argument with another make a point...
> 
> Sure people can agree that there are arseholes on both sides with this argument.


Karl Masks can't.


----------



## The39thStep (Nov 14, 2022)

bimble said:


> Yeah, I’m just thinking of him, who is an unequivocal fool with a house in France that he can’t move to now the twat. what he said at the time was that it wouldn’t change anything, and he meant it wouldn’t impact him personally, so he’s affronted to realise it has changed things, for himself.


Whats the conditions for residency in France, assuming that's what he is after, that he Cant meet?


----------



## bimble (Nov 14, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Whats the conditions for residency in France, assuming that's what he is after, that he Cant meet?


Dunno. Money I think, proving yr income or wealth.


----------



## The39thStep (Nov 14, 2022)

bimble said:


> Dunno. Money I think, proving yr income or wealth.


Cant be that difficult if he owns a posh place next to you and another place in France which he was running some yoga retreat business from, surely?


----------



## bimble (Nov 14, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Cant be that difficult if he owns a posh place next to you and another place in France which he was running some yoga retreat business from, surely?


I don’t know his personal finances but he obvs can’t show them whatever it is that’s required, and I’m glad tbh. Anyway he’s probably moving to Portugal now to join you or so he claims. Easier apparently,


----------



## The39thStep (Nov 14, 2022)

bimble said:


> I don’t know his personal finances but he obvs can’t show them whatever it is that’s required, and I’m glad tbh. Anyway he’s probably moving to Portugal now to join you or so he claims. Easier apparently,


It's the minimum wage for both countries


----------



## bimble (Nov 14, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> It's the minimum wage for both countries


Nah there’s a special thing with Portugal, but can’t remember what. Golden visa for cash I think.


----------



## Karl Masks (Nov 14, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Answered that some time ago (#10797).


You didn't, and that seems a very strange way to argue your position when you could just point out the thing you believe is worth all the misery you helped cause.


Smokeandsteam said:


> Thought how you’ve ended up on the same side as Blair, Cameron, the CBI, the Institute of Directors, Starmer, Ed Davey, Sturgeon, Liz Truss, Gina Millar, Tom Watson, Paul Mason and loads of smug middle class celebz given that you seem to think that whichever side you backed means you ‘support’ everyone else who did?


None of them lied about leaving the EU did they. None of them are Steve Bannon, Putin, or Farage are they, you utter delusional clown.


----------



## The39thStep (Nov 14, 2022)

bimble said:


> Nah there’s a special thing with Portugal, but can’t remember what. Golden visa for cash I think.


That's being ended and its more expensive than the minimum wage route ( think its property or business worth 350k euro , but might be more) . I'd take what he is telling you with a big pinch of salt tbh.


----------



## Karl Masks (Nov 14, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I agree. It’s pathetic. I’m quoting back Karl’s argumen that all those who voted leave support ‘laissez faire capitalism’


Do you believe you were lied to and made a decision based on lies? It doesn't seem so.

My argument is that you supported actual fascists. Not just awful politicians. We live in a world where that is an unfortunate reality and sometimes a necessity. But to believe people who were suerly obvious liars and deceivers. Steve fucking Bannon, the architect of Trump and modern white supremacy. Farage, Banks, fucking Putin ffs.


----------



## 8ball (Nov 14, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> None of them lied about leaving the EU did they.own.



Well, at least you didn't include Donald Tusk. 
The Brexit lot lied their arses off, granted, but I recall the Remainers matching them lie for lie during the campaign.

If you Google a bit, you can see that some people wrote a lot of this stuff down.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 14, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> Do you believe you were lied to and made a decision based on lies? It doesn't seem so.



No. Because I didn’t vote leave for the reasons advanced by the official Leave campaign. 



Karl Masks said:


> My argument is that you supported actual fascists. Not just awful politicians.



Your argument is shit then.


----------



## The39thStep (Nov 14, 2022)

There is something about this thread that attracts 'eccentrics' isn't there?


----------



## 8ball (Nov 14, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> There is something about this thread that attracts 'eccentrics' isn't there?



It's an argument over a vote that happened 6 years ago - what were you expecting?


----------



## Karl Masks (Nov 14, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> No. Because I didn’t vote leave for the reasons advanced by the official Leave campaign.
> 
> 
> 
> Your argument is shit then.


secret special reasons cleverly hidden behind endless social division and economic collapse. 

Slow clap


----------



## 8ball (Nov 14, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> secret special reasons cleverly hidden behind endless social division and economic collapse.
> 
> Slow clap



You do realise people voted Remain for a diverse set of reasons too, right?


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 14, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> Do you believe you were lied to and made a decision based on lies? It doesn't seem so.
> 
> My argument is that you supported actual fascists. Not just awful politicians. We live in a world where that is an unfortunate reality and sometimes a necessity. But to believe people who were suerly obvious liars and deceivers. Steve fucking Bannon, the architect of Trump and modern white supremacy. Farage, Banks, fucking Putin ffs.


You supported racists. But you seem to ignore that. And not just tinpot shitty little racists, big proper racists like Theresa may of the hostile environment. Do you feel pleased with yourself?


----------



## 8ball (Nov 14, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> You supported racists. But you seem to ignore that. And not just tinpot shitty little racists, big proper racists like Theresa may of the hostile environment. Do you feel pleased with yourself?



Or "Fortress EU" racists.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 14, 2022)

8ball said:


> Or "Fortress EU" racists.


Just so


----------



## The39thStep (Nov 14, 2022)

8ball said:


> It's an argument over a vote that happened 6 years ago - what were you expecting?


God knows but it's like a plague


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 14, 2022)

8ball said:


> It's an argument over a vote that happened 6 years ago - what were you expecting?


It's not so much that as you get racist-supporting twats like masks turn up and deploy arguments first proposed in 2016 only in a far less interesting or coherent fashion than they were laid out then or in 2017 and 2018


----------



## TopCat (Nov 14, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> It's not so much that as you get racist-supporting twats like masks turn up and deploy arguments first proposed in 2016 only in a far less interesting or coherent fashion than they were laid out then or in 2017 and 2018


It's the same but with a bit more arrogance.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Nov 15, 2022)

Louis MacNeice said:


> You're still not getting the difference between could and would, let alone having the self awareness to step away from claims of knowing what's in everybody else's (or at least all 'lexiteers') heads.
> 
> I hope it's helping you because it's doing very little for the discussion of brexit and its aftermath.
> 
> Cheers  - Louis MacNeice


As in I could score the winning goal in the World Cup. That sort of idea.


----------



## Karl Masks (Nov 15, 2022)

8ball said:


> You do realise people voted Remain for a diverse set of reasons too, right?


Remain didn't crash our economy. You had two choices only and this was the least worst


Pickman's model said:


> You supported racists. But you seem to ignore that. And not just tinpot shitty little racists, big proper racists like Theresa may of the hostile environment. Do you feel pleased with yourself?


The choice was either support people like THeresa May, who is nowhere near as dangerous as Steve Bannon or Putin or even Farage, or support them. NO other option was on the table so whoever you sided with you sided with scumbags. But if you don't see a difference between May and Bannon then you aren't fit to listen to.

Idiots like Eddie Dempsey didn't go around telling people to reject (and thus remain) the refernedum. They should have done this by correctly recognising it was not in working class interests to leave the EU and would only embolden the grifters they were listening to.
So again: what benefits can you point to?


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 15, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> Remain didn't crash our economy. You had two choices only and this was the least worst
> 
> The choice was either support people like THeresa May, who is nowhere near as dangerous as Steve Bannon or Putin or even Farage, or support them. NO other option was on the table so whoever you sided with you sided with scumbags. But if you don't see a difference between May and Bannon then you aren't fit to listen to.
> 
> ...


The difference between May and bannon is May created the 'hostile atmosphere' and the Windrush scandal. See you're unapologetic about your choice of racist


----------



## The39thStep (Nov 15, 2022)

Frothing


----------



## Karl Masks (Nov 15, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Frothing


this is just tone policing


----------



## Karl Masks (Nov 15, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> The difference between May and bannon is May created the 'hostile atmosphere' and the Windrush scandal. See you're unapologetic about your choice of racist


A complete lack of critical thinking. You obviously don't know who Steve Bannon is and yet here you are bloviating


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 15, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Frothing



Too wet to play with the traffic lights today....


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 15, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> A complete lack of critical thinking. You obviously don't know who Steve Bannon is and yet here you are bloviating


I know entirely who Steve Bannon is. And he has never been in government in the UK. You point to bannon and putin and ignore the real racist remain shits who have made so many people's lives a misery in this country. The drowning and deaths the eu has presided over. There's only one of us with a want of thinking, critical or otherwise, and it's you


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 15, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> I know entirely who Steve Bannon is. And he has never been in government in the UK. You point to bannon and putin and ignore the real racist remain shits who have made so many people's lives a misery in this country. The drowning and deaths the eu has presided over. There's only one of us with a want of thinking, critical or otherwise, and it's you



He demanded evidence of the racist EU Border Policy a while ago after one of his pompous outbursts. It was supplied, but clearly not read. His enthusiastic support for those responsible for actual existing racist government policy in the UK, and rage at the fantasies of long busted flush Bannon (a political nonentity in the UK), is revealing.


----------



## TopCat (Nov 15, 2022)

A low rent Tom Watson.


----------



## Karl Masks (Nov 15, 2022)

Argues for nuance....complains about nuance....doesn't understand the concept of supporting the least worst option when no other option is on the table. Welcome to radical politics in Britain.


----------



## bimble (Nov 15, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> There is something about this thread that attracts 'eccentrics' isn't there?


Show me a better place to come for an instant on tap argument, any time of the day, for free.


----------



## Karl Masks (Nov 15, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> He demanded evidence of the racist EU Border Policy a while ago after one of his pompous outbursts. It was supplied, but clearly not read. His enthusiastic support for those responsible for actual existing racist government policy in the UK, and rage at the fantasies of long busted flush Bannon (a political nonentity in the UK), is revealing.


How has us leaving the EU defeated the policy you allege exists (it may, it may not, I'm not convinced of your understanding given you fall for easy lies told by your enemies)?

Does Bannon have to be a political entity in the UK or does what happens to the US have no bearing on anywhere else? Hard to argue that he is a nonentity given he persuaded you to vote against your own interests so completely. Crippling budget on the way, economy in the toilet, worst performance in the G7, lies told and believed (broadly) about the vaccine, the rise of vicious private media interests stoking up cultural wars (GB, Talk TV), but granny hasn't heard of Steve Bannon so he's not an issue.

You're all over the place


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 15, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> How has us leaving the EU defeated the policy you allege exists (it may, it may not, I'm not convinced of your understanding given you fall for easy lies told by your enemies)?
> 
> Does Bannon have to be a political entity in the UK or does what happens to the US have no bearing on anywhere else? Hard to argue that he is a nonentity given he persuaded you to vote against your own interests so completely. Crippling budget on the way, economy in the toilet, worst performance in the G7, lies told and believed (broadly) about the vaccine, the rise of vicious private media interests stoking up cultural wars (GB, Talk TV), but granny hasn't heard of Steve Bannon so he's not an issue.
> 
> You're all over the place



On point 1: the answer is that it is not possible for the UK to ‘defeat’ the racist EU border policy. However, the historic decision to dump the flaccid failing neo-liberal construct means that we are no longer subject to it.

On point 2: huge LoL. Not even sure Talk TB and GB news _existed _at the time of the referendum but, hey, don’t let that stop you..

By the way, are you David Clapson? The sneering ‘Granny doesn’t know Steve Bannon’ suggests you share the same laughably misplaced superiority complex..


----------



## bimble (Nov 15, 2022)

The argument that says remoaners are the real racists is one of my favourites tbh, I admire it because its got just enough truth to it (why should europeans have any more right to come here than anyone else, isn't it great that we now have more immigrants than before and most from the global south instead of from next door) whilst also brazenly ignoring the fact that if it were not for the full on racists (breaking point poster etc) this great step forwards would never have been possible.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Nov 15, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> On point 1: the answer is that it is not possible for the UK to ‘defeat’ the racist EU border policy. However, the historic decision to dump the flaccid failing neo-liberal construct means that we are no longer subject to it.
> 
> On point 2: huge LoL. Not even sure Talk TB and GB news _existed _at the time of the referendum but, hey, don’t let that stop you..
> 
> By the way, are you David Clapson? The sneering ‘Granny doesn’t know Steve Bannon’ suggests you share the same laughably misplaced superiority complex..


Hang on, it was perfectly possible to strike whatever deals and give visas to whomever we wanted while we were in the EU.


----------



## The39thStep (Nov 15, 2022)

bimble said:


> Show me a better place to come for an instant on tap argument, any time of the day, for free.


I've got used to you


----------



## bimble (Nov 15, 2022)

To look at this country and its conversation about immigrants and try to argue that brexit dealt a blow to the racism the UK was forced to enact by the nasty EU, that is kind of admirably deluded.
People didn’t vote to control are borders because they were fed up with most of the immigrants being white.


----------



## xenon (Nov 15, 2022)

brogdale said:


> Foolish sounds a bit harsh; millions voted Leave in good faith based on what the campaigns had told them. I think anger might be a more appropriate response from folk who feel that they were misled/used.



I think piss taking at some of the pro Brexit business gobs on sticks who are now saying it's all terrible is fine TBH.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 15, 2022)

bimble said:


> People didn’t vote to control are borders because they were fed up with most of the immigrants being white



As usual Bimble the truth is somewhat more complex than your binary statements. There is plenty of evidence that some people did vote to leave for that precise reason. Several people I work with voted leave precisely for that reason. 









						Why do some ethnic minority voters want to leave the EU?
					

Polls suggest most BAME voters favour remain, but there are fears about eastern European migrants, the arrival of neo-Nazis and pressures on poor communities




					www.theguardian.com
				












						The British Asian vote for Brexit contains a few surprises
					

Months on from the EU referendum, our understanding of the Leave vote is still patchy in certain areas. We’ve learnt that older people and the less affluent were more likely to choose Brexit, but w…




					blogs.lse.ac.uk


----------



## bimble (Nov 15, 2022)

At the time of the referendum 77% of people said they wanted to see fewer immigrants in total numbers let into the country so I'm not totally convinced that the main driver was a desire to replace the french with people from pakistan or whatver. 

Like i said, I find the attempt to argue that Remoan was the real racist's choice impressive, please continue.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 15, 2022)

bimble said:


> the country so I'm not totally convinced that the main driver was a desire to replace the french with people from pakistan or whatver.



As I said binary statements rarely give us the whole picture, even your chat indicates the complexity demonstrating a clear hierarchy of migrant among leavers *and* remainers…


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 15, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> As usual Bimble the truth is somewhat more complex than your binary statements. There is plenty of evidence that some people did vote to leave for that precise reason. Several people I work with voted leave precisely for that reason.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


But the majority didn't. Most BAME people voted remain. In my bit of London, it was about 80% remain. I can guarantee you that most of my Bengali neighbours didn't vote remain because they love the EU or _feel themselves to be European_ or any of that guff. More than anything, they were voting against the racists.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 15, 2022)

littlebabyjesus said:


> But the majority didn't.



Who said they did?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 15, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Who said they did?


Who cares how someone you know voted and the reasons for it? If you're trying to work out what this stuff means, you need to engage with who voted for what and why at a large scale. It's disingenuous not to start there. 

And it's also worth repeating here that in the months after the referendum, it was precisely places like this one, which massively rejected Brexit, that suffered from the emboldening of racists. Open racism in the streets in a way that had not happened for years before. And guess what? We could all see that was coming. Did you see it? Did you even give a shit?


----------



## bimble (Nov 15, 2022)

one sure way of preventing brexit would obvs have been to have a more ethnically diverse population in the first place. 
so maybe in the fulness of time it'll all be to the good as the diversification of where our same amount of immigrants come from will lead to a less racist UK.


----------



## Karl Masks (Nov 15, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> On point 1: the answer is that it is not possible for the UK to ‘defeat’ the racist EU border policy. However, the historic decision to dump the flaccid failing neo-liberal construct means that we are no longer subject to it.


Our relationship to Europe necessitates that. Where once we had influence, to whatever degree, within the EU and thus it's border policies, now we're just rule takers. The EU remains one of the world's most successful trading blocs, Britain has shifted into irrelevance as demonstrated by the US response to a trade deal with us vs one with the EU. These trading relationships will obviously be capitalist in nature, but they are also essential given the world in which we live and not the fantasy island you seem to occupy.


Smokeandsteam said:


> On point 2: huge LoL. Not even sure Talk TB and GB news _existed _at the time of the referendum but, hey, don’t let that stop you..


They didn't. They have appeared in the post Brexit climate and vociferously peddle pro Leave propaganda of the most extreme kind. Brexit proved fertile ground for this kind of project.

So again: how are we better off outside the EU. So far we have that the EU's border policies are racist. I'm happy to steelman that argument, but you can't explain how leaving changes that. Support for the EU increased after the rest of the world watched us shit into our hands and applaud our own short sightedness. But even so, wanting to remain does not entail support for every EU policy or attitude at all times. The bottom line is you are advocating cutting off our noses with a rusty razor covered in dog shit to spite our faces.


----------



## bimble (Nov 15, 2022)

Totally worth it though.








						Brexit a major cause of UK’s return to austerity, says senior economist
					

Former Bank of England policymaker Michael Saunders says leaving EU has ‘permanently damaged’ economy




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## ska invita (Nov 15, 2022)

For old times sake

Is the EU position on Fortress Europe either: #1, one that is imposed unwillingly on countries by EU technocrats, which member states in fact wanted something more open-borderish, or #2 was it an accord pushed by delegates_ from_ those sovereign countries _to_ the supranational policy making organs at EU level?

For all intents and purposes it was #2.

At the height of the Syrian+ refugee crisis "The EU" pushed for a common policy on taking in refugees fairly allocated across different member countries, a plan which was utterly rejected by the individual member states, including the UK.
This resulted with Merkel in desperation and political risk to take 1 million refugees in to Germany.


----------



## ska invita (Nov 15, 2022)

bimble said:


> Totally worth it though.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So you're on the same side as a senior economist at the BOE are you?
etc


----------



## Tanya1982 (Nov 15, 2022)

bimble said:


> Totally worth it though.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It was predicted. They said they knew what they were voting for, and that it was a price worth paying _ and_ that it wouldn't happen. It was to be champagne and Italian sports cars and German household appliances, complete with cheap wine from Chile and discount shoes from Vietnam. A consumer paradise would begin, but a protectionist one too - and depending on your political position, a socialist paradise freed from global pressure at that. We were to have an NHS firing on all cylinders like never before, rising wages across the board, empowered workers bargaining for ever better conditions, and we'd all generally enjoy rights but no responsibilities, fantasies but no realities, rewards but no risks, and cakes to be eaten over and over again - and all while nothing much would really change.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 15, 2022)

Tanya1982 said:


> It was predicted. They said they knew what they were voting for, and that it was a price worth paying _ and_ that it wouldn't happen. It was to be champagne and Italian sports cars and German household appliances, complete with cheap wine from Chile and shoes from Vietnam. A consumer paradise would begin, but a protectionist one too - and depending on your political position, a socialist paradise freed from global pressure at that. We were to have an NHS firing on all cylinders like never before, rising wages across the board, workers bargaining for even better rights, and we'd enjoy rights but no responsibilities, fantasies but no realities, rewards but no risks, and cakes to be eaten over and over again.


And if you're even a little bit pissed off about any of this, you're a 'remoaner'.

More than that, it's cos of remoaners that Brexit is going so badly.


----------



## Tanya1982 (Nov 15, 2022)

littlebabyjesus said:


> And if you're even a little bit pissed off about any of this, you're a 'remoaner'.
> 
> More than that, it's cos of remoaners that Brexit is going so badly.


Never mind. It'll turn round any day now. Just hope a little harder.


----------



## TopCat (Nov 15, 2022)

bimble said:


> Totally worth it though.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Support capitalism! Support fortress Europe! Waitrose for all!


----------



## TopCat (Nov 15, 2022)

littlebabyjesus said:


> More than that, it's cos of remoaners that Brexit is going so badly.


Remoaners have no influence. The Tories are fucking up many things, Brexit included.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 15, 2022)

bimble said:


> one sure way of preventing brexit would obvs have been to have a more ethnically diverse population in the first place.
> so maybe in the fulness of time it'll all be to the good as the diversification of where our same amount of immigrants come from will lead to a less racist UK.
> 
> View attachment 351593


for 'diversification' read 'replacement'


----------



## bimble (Nov 15, 2022)

TopCat said:


> Support capitalism! Support fortress Europe! Waitrose for all!


lol. What's wrong with Waitrose For All?


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 15, 2022)

ska invita said:


> So you're on the same side as a senior economist at the BOE are you?
> etc


He seems to be suggesting a 4 point plan to ameliorate the damage:

Rejoin the EU
Import cheap labour
Force the disabled and sick back to work
Education to upskill

A useful guide to what the remain side is fighting for.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 15, 2022)

bimble said:


> lol. What's wrong with Waitrose For All?


because everyone should pay waitrose prices


----------



## Tanya1982 (Nov 15, 2022)

To Topcat - Nobody said that, but to go with your hyperbole for a moment, Waitrose for all is certainly more appealing than Waitrose for nobody.

I didn't think you were in favour of open borders for Britain. A couple of weeks ago there was a thread on that, and I don't recall you saying anything much other than that all the Albanian guys you knew were drug dealers who were 'well at it'. Why that had to be said on an immigration thread is anyone's guess, but it definitely doesn't speak to you approving of and believing in higher rates of immigration.

As an example, I could say that the only Rwandan guy I know beats his wife up. That means it would be technically true to say that 'all the Rwandans I know are wife beaters - they're well at it'. It would be _technically_ true, but if I was to phrase it that way, in the context of a discussion about immigration, it would be entirely fair for people to assume that I was actually very thoughtless at best, and racist at worst.

Therefore, it would perhaps surprise them to find a person who'd do that trying to skewer anyone else for racism or xenophobia.


----------



## bimble (Nov 15, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> He seems to be suggesting a 4 point plan to ameliorate the damage:
> 
> Rejoin the EU
> Import cheap labour
> ...


who is "the remain side" now, in your view, is it a handful of obsessive weirdos or is it the clear & growing majority of the country who now say they think brexit was a mistake? Just checking.


----------



## TopCat (Nov 15, 2022)

bimble said:


> who is "the remain side" now, in your view, is it a handful of obsessive weirdos or is it the clear & growing majority of the country who now say they think brexit was a mistake? Just checking.


The former


----------



## bimble (Nov 15, 2022)

TopCat said:


> The former


But why ? Most people in the country think it was a mistake. Remoaners are the majority.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 15, 2022)

bimble said:


> who is "the remain side" now, in your view, is it a handful of obsessive weirdos or is it the clear & growing majority of the country who now say they think brexit was a mistake? Just checking.



The former: a dwindling number of obsessive weirdos who view everything through the prism of Brexit.

The majority of the country recognise a) that a multiplicity of factors are at work b) that the structural economic problems that Britain faces pre-date Brexit and c) that the Tories have botched Brexit and Truss’ budget lit the fuse.

Most people recognise that the EU debate is settled and want an economic plan that improves matters. They don’t have a disabling confirmation bias. Unlike remainers.


----------



## TopCat (Nov 15, 2022)

bimble said:


> But why ? Most people in the country think it was a mistake. Remoaners are the majority.


Majority my arse. Voting different today is rather different than wishing to ignore a democratic vote because you don’t agree with it.


----------



## Tanya1982 (Nov 15, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> for 'diversification' read 'replacement'


Why?


----------



## bimble (Nov 15, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> The former: a dwindling number of obsessive weirdos who view everything through the prism of Brexit.
> 
> The majority of the country recognise a) that a multiplicity of factors are at work b) that the structural economic problems that Britain faces pre-date Brexit and that c) that the Tories have botched Brexit and Truss’ budget lit the fuse.


I think you’ve got it upside down. Nobody is saying everything is solely the fault of brexit, including that banker. But there’s a dwindling number of weirdos who are trying to deny the fact that brexit has made things significantly worse.


----------



## inva (Nov 15, 2022)

ska invita said:


> For old times sake
> 
> Is the EU position on Fortress Europe either: #1, one that is imposed unwillingly on countries by EU technocrats, which member states in fact wanted something more open-borderish, or #2 was it an accord pushed by delegates_ from_ those sovereign countries _to_ the supranational policy making organs at EU level?
> 
> ...


I think your two propositions make a false distinction. If we can dismiss criticism of the EU for Fortress Europe as merely a reflection of the political balance of the member states, then what exactly can we criticise the EU for or for that matter credit it with?

As this piece by Kenan Malik points out:



			
				Kenan Malik said:
			
		

> Consider the case of Spain and the EU. Until 1991, Spain had an open border with North Africa. Migrant workers would come to Spain for seasonal work and then return home. In 1986, the newly democratic Spain joined the EU. As part of its obligations as a EU member, it had to close its North African borders. The closing of the borders did not stop migrant workers trying to enter Spain. Instead, they took to small boats to cross the Mediterranean and smuggle themselves in. This was the start of the ‘migration crisis’.
> 
> Spain had exercised national sovereignty by keeping its borders open. Closed borders were imposed by Brussels.


I don't think this, which goes to the heart of central EU agreements, can really be waved away like that.


----------



## bimble (Nov 15, 2022)

TopCat said:


> Majority my arse. Voting different today is rather different than wishing to ignore a democratic vote because you don’t agree with it.


Nobody is trying to overthrow the will of the people ffs, it’s over, you won, relax.


----------



## Tanya1982 (Nov 15, 2022)

inva said:


> I think your two propositions make a false distinction. If we can dismiss criticism of the EU for Fortress Europe as merely a reflection of the political balance of the member states, then what exactly can we criticise the EU for or for that matter credit it with?
> 
> As this piece by Kenan Malik points out:
> 
> I don't think this, which goes to the heart of central EU agreements, can really be waved away like that.


_Or_ Spain fully exercised its national sovereignty by choosing to enter a new agreement, knowing that made a prior agreement untenable.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 15, 2022)

bimble said:


> I think you’ve got it upside down. Nobody is saying everything is solely the fault of brexit, including that banker. But there’s a dwindling number of weirdos who are trying to deny the fact that brexit has made things significantly worse.



Yeah, there are some leave supporters who deny that. But, again, most of us recognise that a) a multiplicity of factors are at work b) that the structural economic problems that Britain faces pre-date Brexit c) that the Tories have botched Brexit and Truss’ budget lit the fuse and d) the argument for Brexit remains what it always was: an opportunity to look at an under-performing economy in a new light and to do things differently.


----------



## TopCat (Nov 15, 2022)

bimble said:


> Nobody is trying to overthrow the will of the people ffs, it’s over, you won, relax.


I’m chilled. It’s remainers who froth a lot.


----------



## Tanya1982 (Nov 15, 2022)

bimble said:


> Nobody is trying to overthrow the will of the people ffs, it’s over, you won, relax.


Yes, exactly, that's what's so odd about that line. Nobody is trying to ignore it - chance would be a fine thing. On the contrary, we've lived every last day and detail of it for the past six years, and continue to. Only Brexiters think it's still 2016. They got their Brexit - a full Brexit, this is it, its what they wanted and what they got - *this is Brexit.*


----------



## TopCat (Nov 15, 2022)

Tanya1982 said:


> Yes, exactly, that's what's so odd about that line. Nobody is trying to ignore it - chance would be a fine thing. On the contrary, we've lived every last day and detail of it for the past six years, and continue to. Only Brexiters think it's still 2016. They got their Brexit - a full Brexit, this is it, its what they wanted and what they got - *this is Brexit.*


Drivel


----------



## bimble (Nov 15, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Yeah, there are some leave supporters who deny that. But, again, most of us recognise that a) a multiplicity of factors are at work b) that the structural economic problems that Britain faces pre-date Brexit c) that the Tories have botched Brexit and Truss’ budget lit the fuse and d) the argument for Brexit remains what it always was: an opportunity to look at an under-performing economy in a new light and to do things differently.


The argument for brexit is "an opportunity to look at an under-performing economy in a new light and to do things differently"?
How long does this remain the case? Is it.. for ever and ever, because even if for the next 100 years the opportunity is actually used to make things worse instead of better it's still an opportunity?
That would mean there is no possible outcome that would make you feel it had been a bad idea after all, which i get why that might be nice to think that way.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 15, 2022)

TopCat said:


> I’m chilled. It’s remainers who froth a lot.



Yeah, it’s an odd quirk of remainers. They explode in righteous indignation at being defeated by the ignorant proles and spend hours hammering away at their keyboard in support of increasingly wild theories (normally posited by capital) about Brexit but keep telling us to calm down. Weird.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 15, 2022)

Tanya1982 said:


> Why?


because it's more accurate


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 15, 2022)

bimble said:


> The argument for brexit is "an opportunity to look at an under-performing economy in a new light and to do things differently"?
> How long does this remain the case? Is it.. for ever and ever, because even if for the next 100 years this opportunity is used to do things worse instead of better it's still an opportunity?



I’d argue that longer than 3 years - 2 of which saw a global pandemic, 1 a war and a worldwide economic downturn. Would you agree?


----------



## Tanya1982 (Nov 15, 2022)

TopCat said:


> Drivel


No, reality. Brexit happened - this is it. Enjoy it, or don't, but don't pretend it's not actually what it is.


----------



## bimble (Nov 15, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I’d argue that longer than 3 years - 2 of which saw a global pandemic, 1 a war and a worldwide economic downturn. Would you agree?


Sure. Rees Mogg suggested 50 years didn't he, to really see the benefits, and that seems a bit long. Maybe see where we are at around 2030?


----------



## TopCat (Nov 15, 2022)

bimble said:


> The argument for brexit is "an opportunity to look at an under-performing economy in a new light and to do things differently"?


That’s one argument rather than THE argument.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 15, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Yeah, there are some leave supporters who deny that. But, again, most of us recognise that a) a multiplicity of factors are at work b) that the structural economic problems that Britain faces pre-date Brexit c) that the Tories have botched Brexit and Truss’ budget lit the fuse and d) the argument for Brexit remains what it always was: an opportunity to look at an under-performing economy in a new light and to do things differently.


This last sentence is totally deluded. Everything that has happened so far has been the action of those who want to strip the UK economy down. And this shouldn't have come as a surprise. It's the tory Brexit, after all. And now you have Starmer's Labour vowing to maintain the essence of it. 

Brexit was an opportunity for spiv vermin to steal even more for themselves at the expense of the rest of us. Your argument for Brexit needs to change now that it's actually happened. You are arguing for something that as a point of historical fact did not happen. And 'remoaners' are the cranks who won't accept reality?


----------



## bimble (Nov 15, 2022)

'real brexit has never been attempted'. So the brexit of the mind stays perfect, an ideal, could dawn any day. It doesn't matter if the reality is shit, this is not the brexit they voted for.


----------



## TopCat (Nov 15, 2022)

bimble said:


> 'real brexit has never been attempted'. So the brexit of the mind stays perfect, an ideal, doesn't matter if the reality is shit, this is not the brexit they voted for.


It’s in place now


----------



## bimble (Nov 15, 2022)

TopCat said:


> It’s in place now


This brexit is the one you wanted? Congratulations then, I think you might be the only person in the country who is happy with it.


----------



## TopCat (Nov 15, 2022)

bimble said:


> This brexit is the one you wanted?


I wanted to leave the EU. It’s happened.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 15, 2022)

littlebabyjesus said:


> This last sentence is totally deluded. Everything that has happened so far has been the action of those who want to strip the UK economy down. And this shouldn't have come as a surprise. It's the tory Brexit, after all. And now you have Starmer's Labour vowing to maintain the essence of it.



Your argument is nonsensical. Give one example of where Brexit has allowed those ‘who wish to strip the UK down’ has actually occurred. By that I mean where has Brexit been used to ‘strip things down’….

Yes, it is a Tory Brexit and - leaving aside whose fault that is - our task is to make it a Brexit ground in rebuilding a national economy. 


littlebabyjesus said:


> And 'remoaners' are the cranks who won't accept reality?



Correct.


----------



## bimble (Nov 15, 2022)

Smokeandsteam out of interest which country or countries in the world would you point to as places we should strive to be more like, now we have this freedom, in the way they run their ‘national economy’?


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 15, 2022)

bimble said:


> It’s been just over three years since brexit, two of those have seen a worldwide pandemic, followed by war and a capitalist economic crisis. It’s also the case that rather than a Corbyn led Labour Govenrment the anti democratic actions of remainers led to a situation at the last election where the only party promising to honour the referendum result were the Tories.  So the possibilities opened up by Brexit remain untested and unrealised.



Corrected for you.


----------



## bimble (Nov 15, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Corrected for you.


Eh?


----------



## Tanya1982 (Nov 15, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> The former: a dwindling number of obsessive weirdos who view everything through the prism of Brexit.
> 
> The majority of the country recognise a) that a multiplicity of factors are at work b) that the structural economic problems that Britain faces pre-date Brexit and c) that the Tories have botched Brexit and Truss’ budget lit the fuse.
> 
> Most people recognise that the EU debate is settled and want an economic plan that improves matters. *They don’t have a disabling confirmation bias. Unlike remainers *


That's confirmation bias in itself, unless you were being ironic there? You immediately followed the condemnatory declaration with your own confirmation bias. Your confirmation bias is literally your conclusion to that post.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 15, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Corrected for you.


And there it is. Brexit failed cos remoaners.


----------



## bimble (Nov 15, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Corrected for you.


I suggested we see where we are in 2030 maybe, but you will always have your untapped potential of brexit, nothing that actually happens can take that away from you.
Still curious if there’s a country you think is doing a good job of a national economy, at this point in history.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 15, 2022)

littlebabyjesus said:


> And there it is. Brexit failed cos remoaners.



Nope. Labour under Corbyn failed because of remainers.

Remainers split the party, overturned the position of the 2017 GE, forced a second ref position, forced a policy where labour would negotiate the withdrawal agreement and then campaign against it: remainers cost labour 5 million votes.

Own it.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 15, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Yes, it is a Tory Brexit and - leaving aside whose fault that is - our task is to make it a Brexit ground in rebuilding a national economy.


for me, the leftwing vote to leave was as i've said before more to provide the opportunity for something better to emerge. to put a stick in the spokes of business as usual. the notion that the political opportunities of brexit have all vanished is to me really foolish. the idea that everything has to be really quick puts me in mind of what zhou enlai said about significance of the french revolution, that it was too early to tell. and for me it's certainly too soon to see how everything here might play out over brexit. the tory party seems to be in something of a death spiral and their demise would be an event of really great importance. the now now now insistence of the remainers seems to me to be based on little of actual substance. the departure may have occurred but the game is still in play.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 15, 2022)

bimble said:


> I suggested we see where we are in 2030 maybe, but you will always have your untapped potential of brexit, nothing that actually happens can take that away from you.
> Still curious if there’s a country you think is doing a good job of a national economy, at this point in history.



Assuming Labour win the next election I’d say at the end of its first term would be a point at which a serious discussion could take place


----------



## TopCat (Nov 15, 2022)

bimble said:


> I suggested we see where we are in 2030 maybe, but you will always have your untapped potential of brexit, nothing that actually happens can take that away from you.
> Still curious if there’s a country you think is doing a good job of a national economy, at this point in history.


What’s your favourite capitalist country? That’s what you are asking?


----------



## bimble (Nov 15, 2022)

.


----------



## TopCat (Nov 15, 2022)

What’s your favourite colour will be next.


----------



## Tanya1982 (Nov 15, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Nope. Labour under Corbyn failed because of remainers. Split the party, overturned the position at the 2017 GE, forced a second ref position, forced a policy where labour would negotiate the withdrawal agreement and then campaign against it: cost labour 5 million votes.
> 
> Own it.


Oh, _that's_ why he lost much of what his party already held, while not getting the swing seats or winning back the Scottish seats, all while being too weak not to get tangled up in endless rows about anti-Semitism and foreign policy, and couldn't put clear water between himself and the briefing against him from all sides? Well, that's certainly an _interpretation_ - but that's all it is. There's nothing wrong with having in interpretation, but you can't demand someone 'own' your view.


----------



## TopCat (Nov 15, 2022)

What’s your favourite capitalist country bimble?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 15, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Nope. Labour under Corbyn failed because of remainers. Split the party, overturned the position at the 2017 GE, forced a second ref position, forced a policy where labour would negotiate the withdrawal agreement and then campaign against it: cost labour 5 million votes.
> 
> Own it.


fwiw I thought the idea of 'Common Market 2.0' was the right way to go at the time. I said as much on here. Brexit but 'Norway-style', a compromise that avoided the worst aspects of the Brexit that actually happened while still reflecting the views of a significant number of people who voted leave.

Labour botched its approach to Brexit right from the start. I've said that on here as well. It allowed the Tories to control the narrative that the referendum had to mean closing borders. Farage, Rees-Mogg and the rest were all allowed to win that argument. And so here we are now.


----------



## bimble (Nov 15, 2022)

TopCat said:


> What’s your favourite capitalist country bimble?


Brexit Britian is gonna build a National Economy the like of which you've never seen, not since the pre-industrial age, there's never been anything to close it,  it'll be very self sufficient but in a good way, not like Sudan is, no 5 yr plans or anything, we'll have all the best cheese but definitely no waitroses, it'll be great.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 15, 2022)

bimble said:


> Smokeandsteam out of interest which country or countries in the world would you point to as places we should strive to be more like, now we have this freedom, in the way they run their ‘national economy’?



As I pointed out earlier in the thread…

Put in its simplest form the benefits of Brexit can be summarized as: greater democracy and democratic control over the national economy, the removal of undemocratic constraints on state aid, planning, investment and management of the economy, more progressive immigration rules and an escape from a doomed EU neo-liberal project which will inevitably lead to further political and economic union and which will inevitably lead to further withering away of democratic accountability and control. As night follows day right wing populism will continue to grow across Europe in response.

Some of us can see that - in the midst of a cost of living crisis and recession - that the debate about how we should respond to it will deepen and sharpen. Questions about public ownership, nationalisation, planning, democratic control are everywhere. The trade unions have scored spectacular victories and disputes are happening now across the economy. A general strike is back on the agenda. The range of levers that government can pull – procurement, import and export control, public ownership, regulation, investment in infrastructure, subsidies for new industries, trade policy – are easier, simpler and made more possible without the dead hand of the Troika (the ECB, the EU and the IMF).

As I said in post #10797:

_What would be a disaster for the left, compounding other disasters, would be to now swim along with liberalism in assuming that the answer and the necessary debate about these systemic problems is best done through the prism of the EU. What is needed instead is a vision for what a b*etter economy: based on economic justice, collective bargaining and a generational shift in money and wealth away from the 1% and back towards the rest of us: and to consider how that might be achieved post Brexit. Neither the EU or the existing order in the UK offers anything like this.*

As we are on the Brexit thread I will say again that its real tragedy was the defeat of a disorientated Labour leadership and a manifesto that at least pointed in that direction, and would in a post Brexit economy have taken a small but seismically important step away from the path we've been on since 1973. As for those who say an alternative vision is too ambitious and can't be done I'd point out that the left used to possess such ambition and ideas and went out and argued for them and stood by them:. In fact, in 1973 the Labour Party's Alterative Economic Strategy set out an economic plan - also ground in an anguished debate about the EU - based on a political understanding of economic policy as class struggle and aimed to impose greater working class political control on each of the forms of capital. A similar approach is needed in 2022 to unpick the damage of the last 50 years. _

It is only possible to deny these possibilities now exist if you assume that Britain will have right wing governments in perpetuity. That Truss and Starmer are undefeatable. I don't accept that for one second. It's bizarre that people on here get away with it, given that we came within a few thousand votes of a Government in 2017 that would have been genuinely social democratic. Their authority diminishes with each new crisis and their utter lack of a vision or credible response, the desire for change as the perma-crisis lengthens and deepens.  

The other, equally ludicrous charge, is to pretend that having left the EU in 2020 with a dysfunctional tory government (elected in no small measure to due to Labour Remainers) and the worst pandemic in living memory that a) everything that has gone wrong is due to Brexit and that b) there are no benefits and the proof is the last 2 years. Both arguments deliberately evade the facts of a global capitalist economic crisis and empty out the need for struggle and organization on our side: pre-requisites' for change in our favour at every point in history.

It used to be the left who welcomed change and the right that wanted things to remain the same. Now now. The inability to envisage what a progressive government or even better us could do - and the concomitant - meek and craven argument that the arrangements that existed up until 2016 were the 'best we can hope for' is indicative of a colossal and profound political disorientation.

That bimble is what I’m fighting for. Not to copy what other countries are doing.


----------



## TopCat (Nov 15, 2022)

bimble said:


> Brexit Britian is gonna build a National Economy the like of which you've never seen, not since the pre-industrial age, it'll be very self sufficient but in a good way, not like Sudan is, we'll have all the best cheese but definitely no waitroses, it'll be great.


You asked another three times but don’t want to answer your own question?


----------



## bimble (Nov 15, 2022)

You're right Smokeandsteam i am a defeatist, a pessimist, compared to you. I am more & more convinced that's what the dividing line really was, or at least some of it, remoaners are and were not the side of the optimists.


----------



## philosophical (Nov 15, 2022)

I don’t see how it can be said the EU debate has been settled.
The Northern Ireland assembly isn’t working because some of them are pissed off with an EU issue, and the UK government is running with that pissed offness.
In the meantime a lot of ordinary life in that part of the UK is getting worse as a result.
Doesn’t look settled to me.


----------



## Tanya1982 (Nov 15, 2022)

Important to remember that 'came within a few thousand votes of winning' still means lost. And equally important to remember it's not 2017 anymore - you can't honestly characterize someone negatively as being stuck in 2016 when you're stuck yourself at a point not even one full year later.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 15, 2022)

bimble said:


> You're right Smokeandsteam i am a defeatist, a pessimist, compared to you. I do think more and more that that's what the dividing line really was, or some of it, remoaners are and were not the side of the optimists.


what's that saying about pessimists never being disappointed?


----------



## TopCat (Nov 15, 2022)

philosophical said:


> I don’t see how it can be said the EU debate has been settled.
> The Northern Ireland assembly isn’t working because some of them are pissed off with an EU issue, and the UK government is running with that pissed offness.
> In the meantime a lot of ordinary life in that part of the UK is getting worse as a result.
> Doesn’t look settled to me.


The Unionists don’t want to lose their current power hence a refusal to participate in govt. They will never be happy with diminished  power. Fuck them.


----------



## bimble (Nov 15, 2022)

TopCat said:


> You asked another three times but don’t want to answer your own question?


i think it would be ok if we were a bit more like sweden economically, for example, which is a country that exists, where people all the time vote for high tax in exchange for decent services, but thats no good cos its in the eu.


----------



## TopCat (Nov 15, 2022)

…


----------



## ska invita (Nov 15, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> for me, the leftwing vote to leave was as i've said before more to provide the opportunity for something better to emerge. to put a stick in the spokes of business as usual. the notion that the political opportunities of brexit have all vanished is to me really foolish. the idea that everything has to be really quick puts me in mind of what zhou enlai said about significance of the french revolution, that it was too early to tell. and for me it's certainly too soon to see how everything here might play out over brexit. the tory party seems to be in something of a death spiral and their demise would be an event of really great importance. the now now now insistence of the remainers seems to me to be based on little of actual substance. the departure may have occurred but the game is still in play.


Truth in that but it's an immiserationist* position in practice

*Good word I learnt on urban this month


----------



## bimble (Nov 15, 2022)

TopCat said:


> The Eugenics and racism not a concern then?


can you read? i said the word economically. You're not the argument i come here for, you do try hard but never hit the spot .


----------



## TopCat (Nov 15, 2022)

bimble said:


> i think it would be ok if we were a bit more like sweden economically, for example, which is a country that exists, where people all the time vote for high tax in exchange for decent services, but thats no good cos its in the eu.


Swedish structural racism would not bother you?


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 15, 2022)

ska invita said:


> Truth in that but it's an immiserationist* position in practice
> 
> *Good word I learnt on urban this month


the economic policies of the tory government have always been immiserationist, be they the policies of the cameron, may, johnson, truss or sunak administrations. brexit has not changed the tack they're on.


----------



## ska invita (Nov 15, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> the economic policies of the tory government have always been immiserationist, be they the policies of the cameron, may, johnson, truss or sunak administrations. brexit has not changed the tack they're on.


It's objectively true and obvious that a hard Brexit was a Fuck Business immiserationist policy


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 15, 2022)

ska invita said:


> It's objectively true and obvious that a hard Brexit was a Fuck Business immiserationist policy


that's hardly a change in direction.


----------



## ska invita (Nov 15, 2022)

It is if you look on a graph


Left wing support for immiserationist positions is not new and can be justified, in fact I remember it being justified on here in 2015...

An honest take would acknowledge the fuck business, short term hardship effect.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 15, 2022)

ska invita said:


> It is if you look on a graph
> 
> 
> Left wing support for immiserationist positions is not new and can be justified, in fact I remember it being justified on here in 2015...
> ...


if you want to be honest you might acknowledge the longer term drive towards hardship for millions of public sector workers, not to mention so many people in the private sector.

from the tenor of your posts you're not so fussed about them as you are about business.


----------



## Yossarian (Nov 15, 2022)

This 'crappy Brexit memes' thread has become the 'TLR Brexit rants' thread, didn't there used to be another one?


----------



## Karl Masks (Nov 15, 2022)

Tanya1982 said:


> Never mind. It'll turn round any day now. Just hope a little harder.


and while you're at it, vote trump


----------



## bimble (Nov 15, 2022)

Yossarian said:


> This 'crappy Brexit memes' thread has become the 'TLR Brexit rants' thread, didn't there used to be another one?


In the golden age of brexit fighting i am sure we had loads on the go at the same time but this is now the preserve of extremists and masochists only. Move along if thats not your scene.


----------



## Karl Masks (Nov 15, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Your argument is nonsensical. Give one example of where Brexit has allowed those ‘who wish to strip the UK down’ has actually occurred. By that I mean where has Brexit been used to ‘strip things down’….
> 
> Yes, it is a Tory Brexit and - leaving aside whose fault that is - our task is to make it a Brexit ground in rebuilding a national economy.
> 
> ...


the bonfire of eu regulations that will make trade impossible since diverging from regulatory alignment would be a huge blunder


----------



## TopCat (Nov 15, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> and while you're at it, vote trump


Your least worst option?


----------



## Karl Masks (Nov 15, 2022)

TopCat said:


> Your least worst option?


No, a joke.

Did you vote to leave those as well?


----------



## TopCat (Nov 15, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> No, a joke.
> 
> Did you vote to leave those as well?


It’s a crap joke.


----------



## TopCat (Nov 15, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> the bonfire of eu regulations that will make trade impossible since diverging from regulatory alignment would be a huge blunder


It won’t make trade impossible. Capital likes to trade and finds a way.


----------



## gentlegreen (Nov 15, 2022)

Australia free trade deal a failure for UK, says George Eustice
					

George Eustice helped negotiate the free trade agreement with Australia while environment secretary.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## TopCat (Nov 15, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> Australia free trade deal a failure for UK, says George Eustice
> 
> 
> George Eustice helped negotiate the free trade agreement with Australia while environment secretary.
> ...


Tory is fucking idiot shock


----------



## gosub (Nov 15, 2022)

bimble said:


> who is "the remain side" now, in your view, is it a handful of obsessive weirdos or is it the clear & growing majority of the country who now say they think brexit was a mistake? Just checking.


In my view (though you didn't ask for it) THIS Brexit was a mistake, but it is what it is.  An even bigger mistake would be to rejoin, and those who favour such an option should start being honest about what it would entail....Also going to find its not just the UK that's going to face austere few years, because there are a number of other factors at play....EU membership is far from a panacea


----------



## teqniq (Nov 15, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> The former: a dwindling number of obsessive weirdos who view everything through the prism of Brexit.
> 
> The majority of the country recognise a) that a multiplicity of factors are at work b) that the structural economic problems that Britain faces pre-date Brexit and c) that the Tories have botched Brexit and Truss’ budget lit the fuse.
> 
> Most people recognise that the EU debate is settled and want an economic plan that improves matters. They don’t have a disabling confirmation bias. Unlike remainers.


You'll be happy to provide evidence for all the above assertions I would hope because I saw a very recent poll that showed a majority of people in the UK thought leaving the EU was a mistake (only 52% but still a majority) and there are a number of polls going back further that all indicate that people want to rejoin:









						Brexit opinion poll 2022 | Statista
					

As of December 2022, 51 percent of people in Great Britain thought that it was wrong to leave the European Union, compared with 34 percent who thought it was the right decision.




					www.statista.com
				












						Brexit: Rejoining EU takes record 14-point lead in latest poll
					

Economic problems driving support for reversing Brexit ‘mistake’




					www.independent.co.uk
				












						Support for Brexit is collapsing as poll finds big majority of British people want to be in the EU
					

A newly released survey found that 57% of British people wanted to rejoin the European Union, with support for Brexit collapsing.




					www.businessinsider.com


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 15, 2022)

gosub said:


> In my view (though you didn't ask for it) THIS Brexit was a mistake, but it is what it is.  An even bigger mistake would be to rejoin, and those who favour such an option should start being honest about what it would entail....Also going to find its not just the UK that's going to face austere few years, because there are a number of other factors at play....EU membership is far from a panacea


Brexit wasn't some kind of natural phenomenon. And THIS Brexit is an ongoing mistake. The conversation ought to be about how to fix the problems it's caused. The idea that 'the EU debate is settled', as suggested upthread, is patently wrong. This relationship with the EU is a disaster and will need to be changed. Nothing is settled.


----------



## gosub (Nov 15, 2022)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Brexit wasn't some kind of natural phenomenon. And THIS Brexit is an ongoing mistake. The conversation ought to be about how to fix the problems it's caused. The idea that 'the EU debate is settled', as suggested upthread, is patently wrong. This relationship with the EU is a disaster and will need to be changed. Nothing is settled.


I get that,  also get that a return to the same relationship UK had pre 2016 is impossible (not sure most people do).  In the meantime the EU has challenges of its own to overcome


----------



## Artaxerxes (Nov 15, 2022)

It has been _0_ days since the thread degenerated into slagging off Leave\Remain voters


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 15, 2022)

gosub said:


> I get that,  also get that a return to the same relationship UK had pre 2016 is impossible (not sure most people do).  In the meantime the EU has challenges of its own to overcome


A return to pre-2016 is impossible, yes. The UK had a unique status in the EU. It was like Norway's relationship but with voting rights. They won't get that back.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 15, 2022)

littlebabyjesus said:


> A return to pre-2016 is impossible, yes. The UK had a unique status in the EU. It was like Norway's relationship but with voting rights. They won't get that back.


Nor the rebate nor the commissioner etc


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Nov 15, 2022)

TopCat said:


> Tory is fucking idiot shock


Tory is fucking lying idiot shock. 

He got called on the lying on the radio today and just said 'I wasn't lying, that's collective responsibility'; as if both things were somehow mutually exclusive!

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## Karl Masks (Nov 15, 2022)

TopCat said:


> It’s a crap joke.


you're the expert


----------



## Karl Masks (Nov 15, 2022)

TopCat said:


> It won’t make trade impossible. Capital likes to trade and finds a way.


Cool, what are the options on the table? Go...


----------



## Karl Masks (Nov 15, 2022)

Artaxerxes said:


> It has been _0_ days since the thread degenerated into slagging off Leave\Remain voters


just the clowns who, despite the evidence, still believe we're better off in fantasy land.

I don't hold anyone who fell for a complex well funded campaign of deceit. People are entitled to be wrong and make mistakes. To continue arguing for this now is an act of utter folly and self harm


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 15, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> I don't hold anyone who fell for a complex well funded campaign of deceit.


Good. It'd be better if it meant something.


----------



## Tanya1982 (Nov 15, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> and while you're at it, vote trump


Indeed. Brexit's twin. All that manufacturing will be racing back to the rust belt any day now. Any day. Probably tomorrow. Almost certainly this century. Just hang on and hope - just as with Brexit the horizon depends on what you're looking for and changes frequently, so you can project whatever dreams and fantasies you want onto it.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 15, 2022)

Tanya1982 said:


> Indeed. Brexit's twin. All that manufacturing will be racing back to the rust belt any day now. Any day. Probably tomorrow. Almost certainly this century. Just hang on and hope - just as with Brexit the horizon depends on what you're looking for and changes frequently, so you can project whatever dreams and fantasies you want onto it.



You do realise he isn’t President anymore right?

As for the slightly patronising tone you favour, as usual with middle class liberals the symptoms are often mistaken for the cause when it comes to ire. How dare these ignorant sheeple want jobs to come back to their community eh? How dare these imbeciles turn their backs on their self professed leaders (who didn’t nothing to prevent the jobs going) eh?


----------



## gosub (Nov 15, 2022)

littlebabyjesus said:


> A return to pre-2016 is impossible, yes. The UK had a unique status in the EU. It was like Norway's relationship but with voting rights. They won't get that back.


No Norway deal is different EFTA and its transparency on payments...UK can't even go down that route EFTA considers UKs size makes it incompatible with membership.


----------



## gosub (Nov 15, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> just the clowns who, despite the evidence, still believe we're better off in fantasy land.
> 
> I don't hold anyone who fell for a complex well funded campaign of deceit. People are entitled to be wrong and make mistakes. To continue arguing for this now is an act of utter folly and self harm


I know, yet years after the tax payer funded sham ended there are people who carry on like they can't accept the result


----------



## gosub (Nov 15, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> You do realise he isn’t President anymore right?


Not sure he's fully absorbed that himself tbh


----------



## newme (Nov 15, 2022)

gosub said:


> Not sure he's fully absorbed that himself tbh


Which is remarkable considering how fucking horrified he looked to be elected to begin with


----------



## Karl Masks (Nov 15, 2022)

Tanya1982 said:


> Indeed. Brexit's twin. All that manufacturing will be racing back to the rust belt any day now. Any day. Probably tomorrow. Almost certainly this century. Just hang on and hope - just as with Brexit the horizon depends on what you're looking for and changes frequently, so you can project whatever dreams and fantasies you want onto it.


We've just given away our agriculture to the Aussies and then admitted that was a terrible idea. But Project Fear....


----------



## Karl Masks (Nov 15, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> You do realise he isn’t President anymore right?
> 
> As for the slightly patronising tone you favour, as usual with middle class liberals the symptoms are often mistaken for the cause when it comes to ire. How dare these ignorant sheeple want jobs to come back to their community eh? How dare these imbeciles turn their backs on their self professed leaders (who didn’t nothing to prevent the jobs going) eh?


Extraordinary. Nothing in that post inspires such a bad faith reading.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 16, 2022)

gosub said:


> No Norway deal is different EFTA and its transparency on payments...UK can't even go down that route EFTA considers UKs size makes it incompatible with membership.


EFTA has expressed concerns, yes. A good faith UK could work something out, though. One of the problems - the biggest problem - is that nobody trusts the good faith of the UK. The UK was a founding member of EFTA. Its relative size wasn't a problem then.

There was total transparency on the UK's payments to the EU, btw, if that's what you're getting at. One of the big lies put about by Johnson was the idea that the UK pays all this money and it goes 'god knows where'. Johnson himself knew full well that all the money was accounted for, and that EU payments are all laid out online for anyone to have a look at. One of the many lies of the Leave campaign.

And if people think I'm obsessing on this, I'm not. I'm just posting on a thread about Brexit. I don't think about Brexit that much, but whenever I do, I reflect on how much of a total fuck up it has been and how fucking deluded everyone who still thinks it was a good idea is.


----------



## _Russ_ (Nov 16, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> just the clowns who, despite the evidence, still believe we're better off in fantasy land.
> 
> I don't hold anyone who fell for a complex well funded campaign of deceit. People are entitled to be wrong and make mistakes. To continue arguing for this now is an act of utter folly and self harm


So why do you keep doing it.


P.S. Fuck off


----------



## TopCat (Nov 16, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> Extraordinary. Nothing in that post inspires such a bad faith reading.


It deserves a harsher response you pompous twat.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 16, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> You do realise he isn’t President anymore right?
> 
> As for the slightly patronising tone you favour, as usual with middle class liberals the symptoms are often mistaken for the cause when it comes to ire. How dare these ignorant sheeple want jobs to come back to their community eh? How dare these imbeciles turn their backs on their self professed leaders (who didn’t nothing to prevent the jobs going) eh?


Yeh the crop in power now have presided over the selling off of not just the family jewels but the family home.


----------



## Tanya1982 (Nov 16, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> Extraordinary. Nothing in that post inspires such a bad faith reading.


There's not much to be said to someone who thinks that an arguable 'slightly patronizing' tone is worse than a definitely 'fucking lying' tone. It's not me who's lying to those people as part of my grift, so I rest easy.

Candlestick makers of the world unite!


----------



## Maggot (Nov 16, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> The former: a dwindling number of obsessive weirdos who view everything through the prism of Brexit.
> 
> The majority of the country recognise a) that a multiplicity of factors are at work b) that the structural economic problems that Britain faces pre-date Brexit and c) that the Tories have botched Brexit and Truss’ budget lit the fuse.
> 
> Most people recognise that the EU debate is settled and want an economic plan that improves matters. They don’t have a disabling confirmation bias. Unlike remainers.


This is hilaroius. 

Brexit has shrunk our economy by 4%, cost billions; Damaged exports and made them almost impossible or uneconomic for many firms; contributed to labour shortages in hospitality, social care and other areas; Led to an unsolvable problem with the Good Friday Agreement;  Screwed fisherman and farmers.  

Yet the people who point this out are 'a dwindling number of obsessive weirdos'.


----------



## gosub (Nov 17, 2022)

Maggot said:


> This is hilaroius.
> 
> Brexit has shrunk our economy by 4%, cost billions; Damaged exports and made them almost impossible or uneconomic for many firms; contributed to labour shortages in hospitality, social care and other areas; Led to an unsolvable problem with the Good Friday Agreement;  Screwed fisherman and farmers.
> 
> Yet the people who point this out are 'a dwindling number of obsessive weirdos'.


Can you colour in the impacts of other things such as covid, Ukraine, QE+QT to give a percentage impact on the economy, just out of interest? Or have you decided to say 4% Brexit and started laughing....If so is probably hysteria rather than hilarity


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 17, 2022)

Maggot said:


> This is hilaroius.



Thanks. What’s tragic is the number of people on here who endlessly bemoan the termination of membership of a trading bloc managed by unelected bureaucrats, the ECB and IMF. Weep at the relative drying up of cheap labour and who trot out estimates produced by administrators of capital that try to explain away the structural and  corporeal consequences of it.

To have had your horizons lowered to the extent that the restoration of the EU order is what you are fighting for is depressing.


----------



## Maggot (Nov 17, 2022)

gosub said:


> Can you colour in the impacts of other things such as covid, Ukraine, QE+QT to give a percentage impact on the economy, just out of interest? Or have you decided to say 4% Brexit and started laughing....If so is probably hysteria rather than hilarity


That is the figure given by the statisticians at the Office for Budget  Responsibility.  They also said that Brexit has reduced imports and exports by 15%.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 17, 2022)

Maggot said:


> That is the figure given by the statisticians at the Office for Budget  Responsibility.  They also said that Brexit has reduced imports and exports by 15%.



No. It’s an assumption and forecast made by the OBR. You can tell this because it’s in the section of the report marked as such. I can forecast that the OBR - produced by those working at the heart of establishment remain - will be wrong because it’s based on a series of assumptions frozen at a particular moment in time and given the war, covid, Brexit and the cost of living crisis inevitably can only be a guess.


----------



## Maggot (Nov 17, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> No. It’s an assumption and forecast made by the OBR. You can tell this because it’s in the section of the report marked as such. I can forecast that the OBR - produced by those working at the heart of establishment remain - will be wrong because it’s based on a series of assumptions frozen at a particular moment in time and given the war, covid, Brexit and the cost of living crisis inevitably can only be a guess.


I'm sure you know much better than the professional statisticians who spend their working lives analysing and producing these figures.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 17, 2022)

Maggot said:


> I'm sure you know much better than the professional statisticians who spend their working lives analysing and producing these figures.


Maybe, but I definitely know the difference between an assumption and a fact


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 17, 2022)

Maggot said:


> I'm sure you know much better than the professional statisticians who spend their working lives analysing and producing these figures.


Liars, damned liars, and statisticians


----------



## bimble (Nov 17, 2022)

When this gets to around 80% I think the politicians might feel safe enough to mention brexit again.

(For respondents under the age of 50 this poll got only 19% thinking we were right to leave).


----------



## Mezzer (Nov 17, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Maybe, but I definitely know the difference between an assumption and a fact



The irony is, you're happy to assume that having cut our close ties with our closest trading partners, there's no appreciable downturn in trade.   How completely unlikely that is.


----------



## bimble (Nov 17, 2022)

Mezzer said:


> The irony is, you're happy to assume that having cut our close ties with our closest trading partners, there's no appreciable downturn in trade.   How completely unlikely that is.


Our current international trade secretary and chancellor also profess to believe this, tbf.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 17, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Maybe, but I definitely know the difference between an assumption and a fact


On this OBR "4%" point you are entirely correct, however there is a degree of irony in seeing a Lexiteer outline the difference between assumption and fact. If I've understood the Lexit position correctly, it was based on the assumption that the right would not use the Lexit desired referendum outcome to accelerate their small-state consolidation and that a leftist government would be elected to use the nationalist freedom to turn the UK into a democratic socialist polity?


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 17, 2022)

Mezzer said:


> The irony is, you're happy to assume that having cut our close ties with our closest trading partners, there's no appreciable downturn in trade.   How completely unlikely that is.


 
How have we 'cut our close ties' economically exactly? 
When have I said that there is no 'appreciable downturn in trade' 
On your irony scale how ironic do you find it to see alleged 'radicals' pining for a return to the order that existed for the 40 years before the referendum and making this the issue that exercises them more than, for example, the crisis of capitalism, the cost of living crisis, war, environmental catastrophe?  

Looking forward to hearing from you.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 17, 2022)

brogdale said:


> On this OBR "4%" point you are entirely correct, however there is a degree of irony in seeing a Lexiteer outline the difference between assumption and fact. If I've understood the Lexit position correctly, it was based on the assumption that the right would not use the Lexit desired referendum outcome to accelerate their small-state consolidation and that a leftist government would be elected to use the nationalist freedom to turn the UK into a democratic socialist polity?



You can do better than this Brogdale. 3/10.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 17, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> You can do better than this Brogdale. 3/10.





> Looking forward to hearing from you.


----------



## ska invita (Nov 17, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Making this the issue that exercises them more than, for example, the crisis of capitalism, the cost of living crisis, war, environmental catastrophe?


Agree with you.... Though this Hard Brexit is part of the cost of living crisis tbf, but rejoining is not a solution.......and immiserationist though it is this is at least degrowth, though implicated like this it literally kills people....more details at 11.30am


----------



## ska invita (Nov 17, 2022)

brogdale said:


> On this OBR "4%" point you are entirely correct, however there is a degree of irony in seeing a Lexiteer outline the difference between assumption and fact. If I've understood the Lexit position correctly, it was based on the assumption that the right would not use the Lexit desired referendum outcome to accelerate their small-state consolidation and that a leftist government would be elected to use the nationalist freedom to turn the UK into a democratic socialist polity?


What does consolidation mean again? You did explain once but it didn't sink in.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 17, 2022)

ska invita said:


> What does consolidation mean again? You did explain once but it didn't sink in.


incremental cuts to size/scope of state via privatisation etc.


----------



## Mezzer (Nov 17, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> How have we 'cut our close ties' economically exactly?
> When have I said that there is no 'appreciable downturn in trade'
> On your irony scale how ironic do you find it to see alleged 'radicals' pining for a return to the order that existed for the 40 years before the referendum and making this the issue that exercises them more than, for example, the crisis of capitalism, the cost of living crisis, war, environmental catastrophe?
> 
> Looking forward to hearing from you.



I'm not wasting my time debating with you.  It's utterly pointless.  A case in point being the above ascertain that the issue  "exercises them more than, for example, the crisis of capitalism, the cost of living crisis, war, environmental catastrophe."  Where on earth do you get that from? It's a meaningless sentence. There's no sliding scale of importance for such issues.   Brexit related problems are just one of a number of problems facing this country.  Those that highlight these issues (radicals? wtf??) aren't focused on this exclusively, despite your perception that they do.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 17, 2022)

Mezzer said:


> I'm not wasting my time debating with you. It's utterly pointless.



You do know this is a messageboard? Debating stuff is kind of a key reason for its existence.

Anyway, cheerio..


----------



## Mezzer (Nov 17, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> You do know this is a messageboard? Debating stuff is kind of a key reason for its existence.
> 
> Anyway, cheerio..


Conveniently ignored the rest of the posting and the reason though, didn't you?  Just a wind up merchant.


----------



## Karl Masks (Nov 17, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Thanks. What’s tragic is the number of people on here who endlessly bemoan the termination of membership of a trading bloc managed by unelected bureaucrats, the ECB and IMF. Weep at the relative drying up of cheap labour and who trot out estimates produced by administrators of capital that try to explain away the structural and  corporeal consequences of it.
> 
> To have had your horizons lowered to the extent that the restoration of the EU order is what you are fighting for is depressing.


We didn't vote on a relationship with the IMF, so what's the relevance there?

What alternative to the EU exists that was on the ticket? You Lamar everyone else for being middle class liberals yet over nothing towork with. Meanwhile we can see the harm brexit causes


----------



## The39thStep (Nov 17, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> You do know this is a messageboard? Debating stuff is kind of a key reason for its existence.
> 
> Anyway, cheerio..


Obviously better things to do


----------



## ska invita (Nov 17, 2022)

brogdale said:


> incremental cuts to size/scope of state via privatisation etc.


so what is being "consolidated" - private ownership of previously state assets?


----------



## gosub (Nov 17, 2022)

ska invita said:


> so what is being "consolidated" - private ownership of previously state assets?


Principal driver appears, to me, reducing number of people on civil service pension


----------



## brogdale (Nov 17, 2022)

ska invita said:


> so what is being "consolidated" - private ownership of previously state assets?


In the Streeck(ian) sense, he viewed the consolidation in terms of the process whereby the state is increasingly de-democratised making any challenge to the (supra) state's neoliberalism harder, thus consolidating the hegemony of financialised capital.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 17, 2022)

gosub said:


> Principal driver appears, to me, reducing number of people on civil service pension


A helpful consequence for the consolidators but not the principle driver, no. Their's is a more ambitious agenda.


----------



## gosub (Nov 17, 2022)

brogdale said:


> A helpful consequence for the consolidators but not the principle driver, no. Their's is a more ambitious agenda.


The cynic in me suspects its to be on the board or major a shareholder of the firms involved


----------



## brogdale (Nov 17, 2022)

gosub said:


> The cynic in me suspects its to be on the board or major a shareholder of the firms involved


Yeah, undoubtedly these sociopaths are driven by self-interest but that risks underplaying the ideology that underpins the policy trajectory that they drive/support.


----------



## philosophical (Nov 17, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Thanks. What’s tragic is the number of people on here who endlessly bemoan the termination of membership of a trading bloc managed by unelected bureaucrats, the ECB and IMF. Weep at the relative drying up of cheap labour and who trot out estimates produced by administrators of capital that try to explain away the structural and  corporeal consequences of it.
> 
> To have had your horizons lowered to the extent that the restoration of the EU order is what you are fighting for is depressing.


Where do you get elected bureaucrats?


----------



## bimble (Nov 17, 2022)

Jeremy hunt promising a bonfire of EU red tape for our financial services industry to max out “our brexit freedoms” .Great news and so unexpected!


----------



## Mezzer (Nov 17, 2022)

inews:

While Mr Hunt has not held back from blaming Russia for economic problems, experts said it was striking to see the Government ignore one major factor: Brexit.

“Studies have shown, compared to European countries, when you look at bounce back from pandemic, we have not bounced back so strongly,” said Hargreaves Lansdown senior investment and markets analyst Susannah Streeter.


“What was missing from statement was any talk about a reassessment of the UK’s trading relationship with the EU… If that red tape is taken away, it would really help boost the prospects for a faster recovery for the UK.”

Although Mr Hunt did not address Brexit, he would have no doubt seen the Office for Budget Responsibility’s assessment of Britain leaving the EU. The body said: “The latest evidence suggests that Brexit has had a significant adverse impact on UK trade, via reducing both overall trade volumes and the number of trading relationships between UK and EU firms.”


----------



## brogdale (Nov 18, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> You do know this is a messageboard? Debating stuff is kind of a key reason for its existence.
> 
> Anyway, cheerio..


And yet a few posts above you had the opportunity to outline the assumptions that lay behind your decision to engage with the Tories’ EU referendum as a Lexiteer.

Presumably you didn’t assume it would turn out like this?


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 18, 2022)

brogdale said:


> And yet a few posts above you had the opportunity to outline the assumptions that lay behind your decision to engage with the Tories’ EU referendum as a Lexiteer.
> 
> Presumably you didn’t assume it would turn out like this?



I didn't assume or presume _anything_.  The position adopted was a) a recognition of the political opportunity to divest Britain of the dead weight of the neo-liberal EU and its gathering political federalism (plus the increasing control and punishment beatings of countries who refused to impose savage austerity like Greece by the troika of the IMF, ECB and unelected bureaucrats) with the key organising principle a race to the bottom b) the political opportunity to further widen and deepen the debate about what type of economy and society we should organise and fight for with the opportunity (still extant) to rebuild a national economy based on a shift towards economic democracy c) a chance to boot the established order in the bollocks, including all of the parties represented in the HoC who suported remain and d) a question of class solidarity - leaving aside the foul politics of the leadership of Official Leave and Official Remain - the leave vote where I live and work was overwhelmingly working class and the remain support most strident amongst useless middle class liberals. 

I have explained all of this many time before on this groundhog day of a thread...


----------



## ska invita (Nov 18, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I didn't assume or presume _anything_.  The position adopted was a) a recognition of the political opportunity to divest Britain of the dead weight of the neo-liberal EU and its gathering political federalism (plus the increasing control and punishment beatings of countries who refused to impose savage austerity like Greece by the troika of the IMF, ECB and unelected bureaucrats) with the key organising principle a race to the bottom b) the political opportunity to further widen and deepen the debate about what type of economy and society we should organise and fight for with the opportunity (still extant) to rebuild a national economy based on a shift towards economic democracy c) a chance to boot the established order in the bollocks, including all of the parties represented in the HoC who suported remain and d) a question of class solidarity - leaving aside the foul politics of the leadership of Official Leave and Official Remain - the leave vote where I live and work was overwhelmingly working class and the remain support most strident amongst useless middle class liberals.
> 
> I have explained all of this many time before on this groundhog day of a thread...


All good apart from D, a very localist notion of class solidarity. Majority working class near me voted remain and it was wealthy boomers who voted leave, so now what.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 18, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I didn't assume or presume _anything_.  The position adopted was a) a recognition of the political opportunity to divest Britain of the dead weight of the neo-liberal EU and its gathering political federalism (plus the increasing control and punishment beatings of countries who refused to impose savage austerity like Greece by the troika of the IMF, ECB and unelected bureaucrats) with the key organising principle a race to the bottom b) the political opportunity to further widen and deepen the debate about what type of economy and society we should organise and fight for with the opportunity (still extant) to rebuild a national economy based on a shift towards economic democracy c) a chance to boot the established order in the bollocks, including all of the parties represented in the HoC who suported remain and d) a question of class solidarity - leaving aside the foul politics of the leadership of Official Leave and Official Remain - the leave vote where I live and work was overwhelmingly working class and the remain support most strident amongst useless middle class liberals.
> 
> I have explained all of this many time before on this groundhog day of a thread...


Fair play and I appreciate the concise resume of what what motivated you to engage.

From the minority perspective of someone who choose not to engage with the tory referendum I'd say that your position does, inevitably, include a number of assumptions as no-one could know what outcomes might result from the binary choice. 

I suppose they include the assumptions that leaving the supra state would offer:

greater opportunities to challenge neoliberalism and austerity
more opportunity to shift debate for economic reform
represent a "kicking" for the "established order"
an expression of class solidarity
I can't really see that any of those Lexit assumptions/presumptions have been realised, but I can see that they represent a coherent basis for your support of Leave. But to say that they were not assumptions/presumptions is nonsense.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 18, 2022)

brogdale said:


> I can't really see that any of those Lexit assumptions/presumptions have been realised, but I can see that they represent a coherent basis for your support of Leave. But to say that they were not assumptions/presumptions is nonsense.


yeh but as i've said above the ripples from the brexit vote haven't yet settled and potentially the biggest losers from it are the conservative party, whose rabid adherence to the most fuckwitted sort of brexit imaginable may lead to their ejection and quite possibly electoral annihilation at the next general election. i suppose 'a chance to fuck shit up' would come under Smokeandsteam's (a)


----------



## ska invita (Nov 18, 2022)

brogdale said:


> Fair play and I appreciate the concise resume of what what motivated you to engage.
> 
> From the minority perspective of someone who choose not to engage with the tory referendum I'd say that your position does, inevitably, include a number of assumptions as no-one could know what outcomes might result from the binary choice.
> 
> ...


Even if assumptions, you never get to meaningfully vote for them so can't fault a punt on that logic


----------



## brogdale (Nov 18, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh but as i've said above the ripples from the brexit vote haven't yet settled and potentially the biggest losers from it are the conservative party, whose rabid adherence to the most fuckwitted sort of brexit imaginable may lead to their ejection and quite possibly electoral annihilation at the next general election. i suppose 'a chance to fuck shit up' would come under Smokeandsteam's (a)


Possibly; but any such electoral annihilation would bring about another set of neoliberal, consolidator state actors. Nothing changes.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 18, 2022)

ska invita said:


> Even if assumptions, you never get to meaningfully vote for them so can't fault a punt on that logic


True, the ultimate assumption being that voting can change anything.


----------



## The39thStep (Nov 18, 2022)

Very concerned about the consequences for this thread if Twitter goes down


----------



## Serge Forward (Nov 18, 2022)

ska invita said:


> All good apart from D, a very localist notion of class solidarity. Majority working class near me voted remain and it was wealthy boomers who voted leave, so now what.


That's because the 'D' isn't so much class politics as a form of local populism.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 18, 2022)

brogdale said:


> Possibly; but any such electoral annihilation would bring about another set of neoliberal, consolidator state actors. Nothing changes.


let the dust settle and see if all your assumptions for your conclusion hold true.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 18, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Very concerned about the consequences for this thread if Twitter goes down


and not just this thread but all of urban. poor gosub will go apoplectic


----------



## ska invita (Nov 18, 2022)

my presupmtion/assumption was that it would be 

a - a firesale of deregulation
b - an extension of nationialism
c - introduction of an antiworking class points based migration system
d -my solidarity was with antiracists, antixenophobes and those who might lose their existing rights as a result

i think my assumptions were based on reality rather than wishful thinking


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 18, 2022)

and so it begins again


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Nov 18, 2022)

ska invita said:


> All good apart from D, a very localist notion of class solidarity. Majority working class near me voted remain and it was wealthy boomers who voted leave, so now what.


Thats a fair point. I think it was about 60% of the brexit vote that came from the middle class and up.


----------



## ska invita (Nov 18, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> and so it begins again



TUNE!!!


----------



## brogdale (Nov 18, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> let the dust settle and see if all your assumptions for your conclusion hold true.


But you're assuming that the (Brexit) dust hasn't yet settled!   

I assume we're actually at peak brexit now; the only trajectory left will be gradual reintegration into aspects of the single market/trading area.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 18, 2022)

brogdale said:


> But you're assuming that the (Brexit) dust hasn't yet settled!
> 
> I assume we're actually at peak brexit now; the only trajectory left will be gradual reintegration into aspects of the single market/trading area.


it'd be interesting if the tories try to claim the mantle of european integrationists in future


----------



## bimble (Nov 18, 2022)

Whoever does it first or most convincingly will get the votes of the under 50s, so sooner or later it’ll be politically expedient to do so, to abandon the current ploy of appeasing the brexiteers only.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 18, 2022)

bimble said:


> Whoever does it first or most convincingly will get the votes of the under 50s, so sooner or later it’ll be politically expedient to do so, to abandon the current ploy of appeasing the brexiteers only.


It's not worked for the lib dems


----------



## bimble (Nov 18, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> It's not worked for the lib dems


Too soon, and nobody likes them anyway.


----------



## Karl Masks (Nov 18, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I didn't assume or presume _anything_.  The position adopted was a) a recognition of the political opportunity to divest Britain of the dead weight of the neo-liberal EU and its gathering political federalism (plus the increasing control and punishment beatings of countries who refused to impose savage austerity like Greece by the troika of the IMF, ECB and unelected bureaucrats) with the key organising principle a race to the bottom b) the political opportunity to further widen and deepen the debate about what type of economy and society we should organise and fight for with the opportunity (still extant) to rebuild a national economy based on a shift towards economic democracy c) a chance to boot the established order in the bollocks, including all of the parties represented in the HoC who suported remain and d) a question of class solidarity - leaving aside the foul politics of the leadership of Official Leave and Official Remain - the leave vote where I live and work was overwhelmingly working class and the remain support most strident amongst useless middle class liberals.
> 
> I have explained all of this many time before on this groundhog day of a thread...


You haven't explained fuck all. I'm still waiting to hear the benefits of leaving. Go....


----------



## brogdale (Nov 18, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> You haven't explained fuck all. I'm still waiting to hear the benefits of leaving. Go....


That's not a fair representation of Smokeandsteam 's response, tbf.
They've explained very clearly what motivated them to engage with the tory EU referendum and vote to leave. You, or I, might not be convinced of their assumptions, but they have very clearly explained themselves.


----------



## philosophical (Nov 18, 2022)

I am waiting to hear where bureaucrats are elected.
They seem to me to be those appointed by those elected.


----------



## Karl Masks (Nov 18, 2022)

brogdale said:


> That's not a fair representation of Smokeandsteam 's response, tbf.
> They've explained very clearly what motivated them to engage with the tory EU referendum and vote to leave. You, or I, might not be convinced of their assumptions, but they have very clearly explained themselves.


But that wasn't my question. I have repeeatedly asked, in the wake of the considerable damage caused, what the benefits of leaving actually are. We can all be critical of the EU, but we cannot ignore it


----------



## brogdale (Nov 18, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> But that wasn't my question. I have repeeatedly asked, in the wake of the considerable damage caused, what the benefits of leaving actually are. We can all be critical of the EU, but we cannot ignore it


Then quote your own convo; I asked them about the assumptions that lay behind their vote and they responded.


----------



## Karl Masks (Nov 18, 2022)

brogdale said:


> Then quote your own convo; I asked them about the assumptions that lay behind their vote and they responded.


It's a simple question: what are the benefits? surely there is an answer brexiteers can point to


----------



## brogdale (Nov 18, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> It's a simple question: what are the benefits? surely there is an answer brexiteers can point to


Not something I can offer, I'm afraid.
As set out by the lexiteer community they all appear potential/hypothetical benefits to me.


----------



## philosophical (Nov 18, 2022)

Booze cruises.
Isn't that supposed to be the big benefit?


----------



## A380 (Nov 18, 2022)

Lexit benefits any moment now, yes siree, any. moment. now.


----------



## Maggot (Nov 18, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> It's a simple question: what are the benefits? surely there is an answer brexiteers can point to


I started a thread about this once - and it got binned. 

Good luck.


----------



## inva (Nov 18, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> No. It’s an assumption and forecast made by the OBR. You can tell this because it’s in the section of the report marked as such. I can forecast that the OBR - produced by those working at the heart of establishment remain - will be wrong because it’s based on a series of assumptions frozen at a particular moment in time and given the war, covid, Brexit and the cost of living crisis inevitably can only be a guess.


As a technocratic body designed to entrench and depoliticise austerity its easy to see the OBR's shared appeal with the EU 👍


----------



## The39thStep (Nov 18, 2022)

Meanwhile in another world not to far away  from this thread


----------



## Yossarian (Nov 18, 2022)

Did something happen in March 2020?


----------



## Yossarian (Nov 18, 2022)

These pollsters found a much lower percentage of people giving a shit about EU membership before the referendum was called.


----------



## Raheem (Nov 18, 2022)

Yossarian said:


> Did something happen in March 2020?


February.

But, yeah, I believe they've also stopped taking bets about when the Queen will die.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 18, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Meanwhile in another world not to far away  from this thread
> 
> View attachment 351967


Interesting metric of how people were played by the campaigns.


----------



## ska invita (Nov 18, 2022)

brogdale said:


> Interesting metric of how people were played by the campaigns.


are you calling people stupid/manipulated/gullible???


----------



## brogdale (Nov 18, 2022)

ska invita said:


> are you calling people stupid/manipulated/gullible???


der der de der de der der de der...


----------



## bimble (Nov 18, 2022)

How come that ‘worried about relationship w EU’ line keeps climbing sharply atter the referendum is it remoaners ?


----------



## ska invita (Nov 18, 2022)

"What is making this the issue that exercises them more than, for example, the crisis of capitalism, the cost of living crisis, war, environmental catastrophe?"

(a bit of Friday afternoon fun  happy weekend brexit thread)


----------



## 2hats (Nov 18, 2022)

ska invita said:


> What is making this the issue that exercises them more than, for example, the crisis of capitalism, the cost of living crisis, war, environmental catastrophe?


Suspect you might want to examine the x-axis more closely.
​​Source: Ipsos Issues Index, June 2022.


----------



## ska invita (Nov 18, 2022)

2hats said:


> Suspect you might want to examine the x-axis more closely.
> View attachment 351982​View attachment 351983​Source: Ipsos Issues Index, June 2022.


i was repeating verbatim the question Smokey asked this morning of Remoaners.
Guess you had to be there


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 18, 2022)

Louis MacNeice said:


> Different words mean different things; as a result your posts mean different things. This is true whatever your intention.
> 
> It also does nothing to address the two gaping holes in your first offering; the first of which concerns the difference between would and could, while the second I'll leave you and all other remoaners to work out.
> 
> Cheers  - Louis MacNeice


I suppose "remoaners" is slightly better than the "remainiac" trope.
Slightly.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 18, 2022)

Serge Forward said:


> And the "anarcho fantasy" bit?


My own anarcho fantasies tend to involve me getting some of that "free love" I hear so much about, but never see (probably because I have "film star" looks - I look like Shrek!).


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 18, 2022)

AmateurAgitator said:


> Yeah nothing says 'radical' more than being in the E fucking U


Nothing says "reactionary" more than leaving the EU without a fucking plan, like Johnson & his neoliberal knobcheeses deliberately did. I voted "leave", but I didn't vote for a "no deal" Brexit, the like of which was imposed on us after the fact.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 18, 2022)

brogdale said:


> The Guardian alerts me to another brexit benefit:



Why is it that every time I hear that arrogant poncing gobshite speak, I want to rip off his lower jaw and take a shit in it?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 18, 2022)

bimble said:


> And those silly Ukrainians went and put an eu flag up in Kherson, the ungrateful bastards.


We are truly an ingratitudinous people.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 18, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> Thought of any brexit benefits yet?


Syphilis is at an all-time high since we left the EU!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 18, 2022)

brogdale said:


> Foolish sounds a bit harsh; millions voted Leave in good faith based on what the campaigns had told them. I think anger might be a more appropriate response from folk who feel that they were misled/used.


Some of us couldn't see that a govt - any govt - would be so criminally stupid as to leave the customs union given the obvious consequences of doing so. We under-estimated how criminally stupid (and absolutely corrupt) our govt was (and is).


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 18, 2022)

sleaterkinney said:


> I’d take that lot over Farage any day.


Nah. Smarmer can fuck right off. He'd be a Farageista if he thought there was political mileage in it. He truly is a man without qualities.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 18, 2022)

TopCat said:


> A low rent Tom Watson.


You're making the assumption that Tom Watson isn't already the lowest-rent Tom Watson around.


----------



## eatmorecheese (Nov 18, 2022)

ViolentPanda said:


> Why is it that every time I hear that arrogant poncing gobshite speak, I want to rip off his lower jaw and take a shit in it?


A normal Pavlovian reaction


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 18, 2022)

bimble said:


> Sure. Rees Mogg suggested 50 years didn't he, to really see the benefits, and that seems a bit long. Maybe see where we are at around 2030?


Of course, Creepy Rees Smug was careful enough to put a slice of his personal wealth & potential earnings beyond Brexit's reach by incorporating in the RoI, which speaks loudly to his own hypocrisy on the subject of "Brexit benefits", even ones half a century away.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 18, 2022)

TopCat said:


> Swedish structural racism would not bother you?


Not as much as Parsnipish structural racism would.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 18, 2022)

gosub said:


> Principal driver appears, to me, reducing number of people on civil service pension


Cutting down the Civil Service employment roll only has any benefit in about 20-30 yrs time though. As it is, the govt has to keep paying into PCSPS & the satellite schemes at current rates, even though they've already kicked Final Salary schemes into touch (except for the Mandarins, of course).


----------



## Karl Masks (Nov 18, 2022)

ViolentPanda said:


> Syphilis is at an all-time high since we left the EU!


that explains Mogg


----------



## sleaterkinney (Nov 19, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I didn't assume or presume _anything_.  The position adopted was a) a recognition of the political opportunity to divest Britain of the dead weight of the neo-liberal EU and its gathering political federalism (plus the increasing control and punishment beatings of countries who refused to impose savage austerity like Greece by the troika of the IMF, ECB and unelected bureaucrats) with the key organising principle a race to the bottom b) the political opportunity to further widen and deepen the debate about what type of economy and society we should organise and fight for with the opportunity (still extant) to rebuild a national economy based on a shift towards economic democracy c) a chance to boot the established order in the bollocks, including all of the parties represented in the HoC who suported remain and d) a question of class solidarity - leaving aside the foul politics of the leadership of Official Leave and Official Remain - the leave vote where I live and work was overwhelmingly working class and the remain support most strident amongst useless middle class liberals.
> 
> I have explained all of this many time before on this groundhog day of a thread...


I mean, none of this was on offer or came to pass. It’s like saying “I voted brexit to ban marmite” . It’s a Groundhog Day of a thread because we can’t argue against something that has never existed.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 19, 2022)

sleaterkinney said:


> I mean, none of this was on offer or came to pass. It’s like saying “I voted brexit to ban marmite” . It’s a Groundhog Day of a thread because we can’t argue against something that has never existed.


Yes we can. Let me give you an example - god. People have been arguing against god for centuries


----------



## inva (Nov 19, 2022)

sleaterkinney said:


> I mean, none of this was on offer or came to pass. It’s like saying “I voted brexit to ban marmite” . It’s a Groundhog Day of a thread because we can’t argue against something that has never existed.


I don't think Smokeandsteam wants EU imposed austerity or unelected bureaucrats here


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Nov 19, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> Yes we can. Let me give you an example - god. People have been arguing against god for centuries


Well they try and have an argument, but the fucker never answers back.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Nov 19, 2022)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> Well they try and have an argument, but the fucker never answers back.


At least, not in ways that us mere mortals can understand.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Nov 19, 2022)

inva said:


> I don't think Smokeandsteam wants EU imposed austerity or unelected bureaucrats here


We have that anyway without the EU.


----------



## Ax^ (Nov 19, 2022)

points at the house of lords and the latest unelected pm


----------



## inva (Nov 19, 2022)

sleaterkinney said:


> We have that anyway without the EU.


I'm sure left wing leave voters oppose that as well, consistency that's the thing 👍


----------



## pogofish (Nov 20, 2022)

ruffneck23 said:


> Carole Malone an express hack and twat



Who just got her backside handed to her by Janey Godley..!


----------



## MrCurry (Nov 20, 2022)

Whispers the U.K. wants to move the goalposts and change their deal with EU (Twitter thread below). Sounds very much like the cherry picking approach the EU side repeatedly ruled out back in 2016:


----------



## Karl Masks (Nov 20, 2022)

pogofish said:


> Who just got her backside handed to her by Janey Godley..!



Brexit benefit?


----------



## TopCat (Nov 20, 2022)

pogofish said:


> Who just got her backside handed to her by Janey Godley..!



Who are these people? What's the relevance?


----------



## bimble (Nov 20, 2022)

MrCurry said:


> Whispers the U.K. wants to move the goalposts and change their deal with EU (Twitter thread below). Sounds very much like the cherry picking approach the EU side repeatedly ruled out back in 2016:



What does Swiss style actually mean ?


----------



## Artaxerxes (Nov 20, 2022)

bimble said:


> What does Swiss style actually mean ?



Milk powder and nazi gold


----------



## two sheds (Nov 20, 2022)

I wouldn't have thought there'd be much chance of increased trade if the tories go ahead with this planned mass revoking of EU laws we've been hearing of.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 20, 2022)

bimble said:


> What does Swiss style actually mean ?


They've fucked up and are going back cap-in-hand.


----------



## bimble (Nov 20, 2022)

two sheds said:


> I wouldn't have thought there'd be much chance of increased trade if the tories go ahead with this planned mass revoking of EU laws we've been hearing of.


They’re not going to go ahead with it.


----------



## MrCurry (Nov 20, 2022)

bimble said:


> What does Swiss style actually mean ?


Rule takers from EU and paying into EU budget. Not exactly what vote Leave promised their voters.


----------



## two sheds (Nov 20, 2022)

bimble said:


> They’re not going to go ahead with it.


That decision must be fairly recent, they were  banging on about it just a few days ago.


----------



## bimble (Nov 20, 2022)

two sheds said:


> That decision must be fairly recent, they were  banging on about it just a few days ago.


It’s just me doing a reckon but they have announced kicking it into the long grass.


----------



## bimble (Nov 20, 2022)

Lol .


----------



## Karl Masks (Nov 20, 2022)

he's even got a blue tick!


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## Karl Masks (Nov 20, 2022)

bimble said:


> What does Swiss style actually mean ?


It's a bit like making love to a beautiful woman....first you have to tell Nigel Farage to fuck off


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## skyscraper101 (Nov 20, 2022)

Another victory for Brexit


----------



## Tanya1982 (Nov 20, 2022)

Nigel Farage used to go on and on about the 'Swiss model' being a shining example to Britain. How has it suddenly become a threat requiring the crushing of anyone involved?


----------



## pogofish (Nov 20, 2022)

TopCat said:


> Who are these people? What's the relevance?



She’s an unpleasant English journalist who stuck her oar into Brexit but is clearly one who can’t take what she dishes-out.

South of the Border, Janey is probably best known as the “Trump is a Cunt” woman:









						Janey Godley welcomes Trump to Scotland
					

When his helicopter landed at Turnberry, Donal Trump was greeted with this affectionate sign held by Scottish comedian Janey Godley.




					thehobbledehoy.com


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## brogdale (Nov 20, 2022)

Tanya1982 said:


> Nigel Farage used to go on and on about the 'Swiss model' being a shining example to Britain. How has it suddenly become a threat requiring the crushing of anyone involved?


Because the interests behind the leave campaigns have got what they wanted and don't want any backsliding towards rapprochement with the supra state.


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## ska invita (Nov 20, 2022)

MrCurry said:


> Whispers the U.K. wants to move the goalposts and change their deal with EU (Twitter thread below). Sounds very much like the cherry picking approach the EU side repeatedly ruled out back in 2016:



Haha this could fuck the Tories even further as the infighting goes on
I wonder what position Starmer will take

Reported here too








						No 10 seeks to quell hardline Brexiters’ fears over reports of Swiss-style EU deal
					

Minister rubbishes reports of ‘Chequers’-style plan, as businesses expected to call for more ‘practical’ immigration rules




					www.theguardian.com
				




"But the move would require the UK to pledge alignment, at least temporarily, on food and agriculture standards. Doing so would be anathema to champions of a hard Brexit, including Boris Johnson’s former chief negotiator, Lord Frost, as well as members of the hardline ERG." 

It's so obviously what should happen


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 20, 2022)

ska invita said:


> Haha this could fuck the Tories even further as the infighting goes on
> I wonder what position Starmer will take
> 
> Reported here too
> ...


Shammer will take the same position as the tories as he always does. Only he'll say he'd be more efficient.


----------



## ska invita (Nov 20, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> Shammer will take the same position as the tories as he always does. Only he'll say he'd be more efficient.


A good development for him then as he can ride in Sunaks slipstream on this... Doubt he'd have dared propose it himself


----------



## existentialist (Nov 20, 2022)

Tanya1982 said:


> Nigel Farage used to go on and on about the 'Swiss model' being a shining example to Britain. How has it suddenly become a threat requiring the crushing of anyone involved?


Ah, I think you're making the mistake of trying to apply logic to the Brexit cult hivemind.

The diehards are egging a certain proportion of the electorate on towards some ever-more-extreme ideal of Brexit, probably involving Spitfires, Standing Alone, and True British Moral Fibre. All (except for the Spitfires) mythical.

Pragmatic solutions are, by definition, inconceivable.


----------



## spitfire (Nov 20, 2022)

existentialist said:


> Ah, I think you're making the mistake of trying to apply logic to the Brexit cult hivemind.
> 
> The diehards are egging a certain proportion of the electorate on towards some ever-more-extreme ideal of Brexit, probably involving Spitfires, Standing Alone, and True British Moral Fibre. All (except for the Spitfires) mythical.
> 
> Pragmatic solutions are, by definition, inconceivable.



Nothing to do with me guv.


----------



## Chz (Nov 20, 2022)

skyscraper101 said:


> Another victory for Brexit



Lina Stores is still there with full shelves. But it was _originally _priced for its mid-Soho location and has got a lot more so since the tariffs kicked in.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Nov 20, 2022)

Chz said:


> Lina Stores is still there with full shelves. But it was _originally _priced for its mid-Soho location and has got a lot more so since the tariffs kicked in.




Amici and Sons nearby is always better than Lina


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## Puddy_Tat (Nov 20, 2022)

bimble said:


> What does Swiss style actually mean ?



holes in it?


----------



## bimble (Nov 20, 2022)

Tanya1982 said:


> Nigel Farage used to go on and on about the 'Swiss model' being a shining example to Britain. How has it suddenly become a threat requiring the crushing of anyone involved?


I think the point is to be eternally betrayed by the dastardly remoaners that’s the grift, he really didn’t want leave to win the referendum in the first place.


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## Chz (Nov 20, 2022)

Artaxerxes said:


> Amici and Sons nearby is always better than Lina


Camisa? I always found they were better for fresh stuff and Lina for the stored goods. Meaning they are actually better at being a _deli_. One of the things I miss about working from home all the time is a quick shop through Soho. I only go in about once a month now, and generally have enough to keep me busy all day.


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## Serge Forward (Nov 20, 2022)

bimble said:


> What does Swiss style actually mean ?


----------



## andysays (Nov 20, 2022)

bimble said:


> What does Swiss style actually mean ?



It means the proposals are full of holes...

ETA Puddy_Tat got there first


----------



## teuchter (Nov 20, 2022)

Seeing as "remoaner" seems to have become an accepted term for a group of people whose preferred outcome or arrangement got rejected by the broader populace, and yet keep going on about it, can't we also have moanarchists, or urmoan75 or moanti-capitalists? Any other suggestions?


----------



## brogdale (Nov 20, 2022)

teuchter said:


> Seeing as "remoaner" seems to have become an accepted term for a group of people whose preferred outcome or arrangement got rejected by the broader populace, and yet keep going on about it, can't we also have moanarchists, or urmoan75 or moanti-capitalists? Any other suggestions?


Cunt


----------



## skyscraper101 (Nov 20, 2022)

What an utter twunt


----------



## contadino (Nov 20, 2022)

bimble said:


> What does Swiss style actually mean ?


Regulatory alignment.


----------



## Raheem (Nov 20, 2022)

bimble said:


> What does Swiss style actually mean?


Free movement, Schengen, contributing to the EU budget, toothpick, corkscrew.


----------



## bimble (Nov 20, 2022)

contadino said:


> Regulatory alignment.


but it's not some simple thing, like yes to regulatory alignment but no to FOM. Between the swiss and the EU there's hundreds of different bits and pieces of legislation and they're constantly haggling both ways aren't they.


----------



## Lurdan (Nov 20, 2022)

teuchter said:


> Seeing as "remoaner" seems to have become an accepted term for a group of people whose preferred outcome or arrangement got rejected by the broader populace, and yet keep going on about it, can't we also have moanarchists, or urmoan75 or moanti-capitalists? Any other suggestions?





brogdale said:


> Cunt



I think moanarchist is quite witty, although a quick google search suggests it's not necessarily original.

Hmmm - I suppose you could have moanarchist-commoanist. Not nearly as witty and a bit of an awkward hybrid.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 20, 2022)

brogdale said:


> Cunt


Is that a suggestion or simply your opinion of teuchter?


----------



## brogdale (Nov 20, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> Is that a suggestion or simply your opinion of teuchter?


I'd need to go back and review that.


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## contadino (Nov 20, 2022)

bimble said:


> but it's not some simple thing, like yes to regulatory alignment but no to FOM. Between the swiss and the EU there's hundreds of different bits and pieces of legislation and they're constantly haggling both ways aren't they.


Yeah, I think the legal status is made up of a series of bilateral agreements on various subjects between Switzerland and the EU.

The big one, though is an acceptance by the UK government that growth isn't gonna happen while regulatory alignment doesn't exist with our neighbouring trading block. I remember reading a few years ago that regulatory alignment also would mean that the border issue in NI gets solved.

ETA Oh, it seems the EU offered the UK regulatory alignment without fom in June but Johnson rejected it.


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## andysays (Nov 20, 2022)

Lurdan said:


> I think moanarchist is quite witty, although a quick google search suggests it's not necessarily original.
> 
> Hmmm - I suppose you could have moanarchist-commoanist. Not nearly as witty and a bit of an awkward hybrid.


Moanarchist sounds like someone unhappy about the continued existence of the Royal family


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## Pickman's model (Nov 20, 2022)

contadino said:


> Yeah, I think the legal status is made up of a series of bilateral agreements on various subjects between Switzerland and the EU.
> 
> The big one, though is an acceptance by the UK government that growth isn't gonna happen while regulatory alignment doesn't exist with our neighbouring trading block. I remember reading a few years ago that regulatory alignment also would mean that the border issue in NI gets solved.


There is only one solution to the border issue in Ireland and it's not regulatory alignment


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## bimble (Nov 20, 2022)

which countries in the world apart from South Sudan and the UK are not in any regional trading block?


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## teuchter (Nov 20, 2022)

andysays said:


> Moanarchist sounds like someone unhappy about the continued existence of the Royal family


That would be a moanti-monarchist.


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## teuchter (Nov 20, 2022)

bimble said:


> which countries in the world apart from South Sudan and the UK are not in any regional trading block?


North Korea?


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## brogdale (Nov 20, 2022)

bimble said:


> which countries in the world apart from South Sudan and the UK are not in any regional trading block?


Trouble with you remoaniacs; you always exaggerate.


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## Lurdan (Nov 20, 2022)

bimble said:


> which countries in the world apart from South Sudan and the UK are not in any regional trading block?


Aren't we in the "final stage of accession" to the Trans-Pacific Partnership?

Shame we can't move the country out there. Reduced transport costs might sweeten that Australian Trade Deal.


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## Artaxerxes (Nov 20, 2022)

teuchter said:


> North Korea?



So far up China's arse it can floss China's teeth


----------



## bimble (Nov 20, 2022)

I think Afghanistan Venezuela and Iran, aren’t members of any trading blocs. ETA ok there’s quite a few of us grey bits.


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## _Russ_ (Nov 20, 2022)

Artaxerxes said:


> So far up China's arse it can floss China's teeth


Its another one of those special relationships


----------



## bimble (Nov 21, 2022)

Brexit very much back in the news now, after that statement from the chancellor about wanting frictionless trade or whatever pie in sky thing he said, and sadik khan piping up to say lets be honest brexit is not working.
I am very happy about this, did think the omerta from press & politicians would last longer than this.
And the tone of the conversation now seems to be almost sane, like people are willing to talk about the actual brexit we are enjoying and not just shut it down with claims that it’s simultaneously too late (get over it) and too early (Covid Russia) to even discuss changing it.


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## Kaka Tim (Nov 21, 2022)

Its grimly fascinating  observing the contortions of  the political establishment have been going through in order to ignore  the throbbing reality of just how shit brexit is. Looks like we are approaching the stage where that is no longer possible with the economy mired in the ditch.


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## bimble (Nov 21, 2022)

Kaka Tim said:


> Its grimly fascinating  observing the contortions of  the political establishment have been going through in order to ignore  the throbbing reality of just how shit brexit is. Looks like we are approaching the stage where that is no longer possible with the economy mired in the ditch.


Yep they’ll have been closely observing all these polls as well showing that a growing majority of the electorate thinks it’s shit, so the sacred 17 million they’ve been focussed on for six years is done.


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## bimble (Nov 21, 2022)

How did we end up with a country thats basically being blackmailed by this weird little cult of extremists that call themselves the ERG.


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## TopCat (Nov 21, 2022)

The EU certainly never offered the UK a Swiss type arrangement and seem unlikely to do so now or in the future. 
The reality for the Swiss is that every bit of Swiss legislation has to be checked for compatibility with EU law and regulations and signed off by the EU in order to proceed. 

Can’t see this floating over here. 

Good to see remainer hopes up though. Soon I hope to be dashed.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 21, 2022)

TopCat said:


> The EU certainly never offered the UK a Swiss type arrangement and seem unlikely to do so now or in the future.
> The reality for the Swiss is that every bit of Swiss legislation has to be checked for compatibility with EU law and regulations and signed off by the EU in order to proceed.
> 
> Can’t see this floating over here.
> ...


they so regularly are


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## brogdale (Nov 21, 2022)

TopCat said:


> The EU certainly never offered the UK a Swiss type arrangement and seem unlikely to do so now or in the future.
> The reality for the Swiss is that every bit of Swiss legislation has to be checked for compatibility with EU law and regulations and signed off by the EU in order to proceed.
> 
> Can’t see this floating over here.
> ...


Reckon you're right; too many interests are perfectly happy with the outcomes achieved following the referendum.


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## bimble (Nov 21, 2022)

Isn't "swiss style" basically what teresa may was selling but she failed cos of the ERG so we got the hard brexit of their dreams.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 21, 2022)

bimble said:


> Isn't "swiss style" basically what teresa may was selling but she failed cos of the ERG so we got the hard brexit of their dreams.


no

don't you remember theresa may's red lines? What are Theresa May's Brexit red lines?


----------



## bimble (Nov 21, 2022)

idk her former advisor thinks it is more or less the same, what TM failed to get  years ago and what they're making noises about wanting now. It's all nonsense anyway but still good that its being discussed, instead of everyone pretending that brexit is done and dusted and must not be mentioned ever again.


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## TopCat (Nov 21, 2022)

bimble said:


> Isn't "swiss style" basically what teresa may was selling but she failed cos of the ERG so we got the hard brexit of their dreams.


No it was not the same.


----------



## bimble (Nov 21, 2022)

TopCat said:


> No it was not the same.


ok. Are you worried that we might get regulatory alignment would that ruin your brexit?
Do you need it to stay exactly like this for ever, the brexit you want is the one that boris johnson made?


----------



## TopCat (Nov 21, 2022)

Labour voted against Mays deal remember.


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## TopCat (Nov 21, 2022)

bimble said:


> ok. Are you worried that we might get regulatory alignment would that ruin your brexit?
> Do you need it to stay exactly like this for ever, the brexit you want is the one that boris johnson made?


Allowing the EU to effectively have a veto on UK legislation is not acceptable.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 21, 2022)

bimble said:


> idk her former advisor thinks it is more or less the same, what TM failed to get  years ago and what they're making noises about wanting now. It's all nonsense anyway but still good that its being discussed, instead of everyone pretending that brexit is done and dusted and must not be mentioned ever again.



Have you heard of the customs Union and the European  economic area?


----------



## bimble (Nov 21, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> Have you heard of the customs Union and the European  economic area?


I have! Why do you ask. The Swiss aren't in either are they?


----------



## Karl Masks (Nov 21, 2022)

Six fucking years....


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 21, 2022)

bimble said:


> I have! Why do you ask. The Swiss aren't in either are they?


You're right, I was thinking eea = sm


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 21, 2022)

But you'll recall tm against sm


----------



## xenon (Nov 21, 2022)

Dunno about Swiss arrangement but how far are we from talk of rejoining customs union. Fuck the ERG. I mean normal people. Is that still unthinkable because we wont' be able to do brilliant deals like the Australia one. Or the US one, soon to happen in the next 15 years or so .


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## littlebabyjesus (Nov 21, 2022)

So the only solution that doesn't fuck the economy is one that involves regulatory alignment with a group in which the UK doesn't have a vote?

Whodathunk?

Brexit's great, isn't it? So much better than being in the EU.

But hey, at least we've stopped those pesky Romanians coming over here.


----------



## bimble (Nov 21, 2022)

xenon said:


> Dunno about Swiss arrangement but how far are we from talk of rejoining customs union. Fuck the ERG. I mean normal people. Is that still unthinkable because we wont' be able to do brilliant deals like the Australia one. Or the US one, soon to happen in the next 15 years or so .


Chancellor a few days ago whilst admitting that our hard brexit has given the economy a kicking said :

“I have great confidence that over the years ahead we will find outside the single market we are able to *remove the vast majority of the trade barriers that exist *between us and the EU..”

which sounds like he's still just imagining sky pie so who knows. I reckon what will happen is a sort of silent creeping rejoin. Will take a while but if tories are out at the next GE it might go quicker because labour doesn't have an ERG pulling its strings from inside.


----------



## TopCat (Nov 21, 2022)

littlebabyjesus said:


> So the only solution that doesn't fuck the economy is one that involves regulatory alignment with a group in which the UK doesn't have a vote?
> 
> Whodathunk?
> 
> ...


Your talking shite, again. Over one million Romanians have settled status in the UK.


----------



## bimble (Nov 21, 2022)

This, an annoying twitter thread, is i think a decent summary of what stage of the fuckup we are currently at:


----------



## brogdale (Nov 21, 2022)

TopCat said:


> Your talking shite, again. Over one million Romanians have settled status in the UK.


By definition, those EU member state citizens must have been resident for 5 years prior to 31/12/2020. I think that LBJ was referring to the decline beyond the UK's formal exit which was, (wasn't it?), one of the main points of the whole exercise?


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 21, 2022)

littlebabyjesus said:


> So the only solution that doesn't fuck the economy is one that involves regulatory alignment with a group in which the UK doesn't have a vote?
> 
> Whodathunk?
> 
> ...


The economy is fucked anyway as the notion of a return to growth is incompatible with keeping global warming at a reasonable level


----------



## brogdale (Nov 21, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> The economy is fucked anyway as the notion of a return to growth is incompatible with keeping global warming at a reasonable level


Wholeheartedly agree with that sentiment but, within the here and now, there is a degree of UK exceptionalism about capital's failure to raise GDP in our polity.


----------



## The39thStep (Nov 21, 2022)




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## ska invita (Nov 21, 2022)

TopCat said:


> The EU certainly never offered the UK a Swiss type arrangement and seem unlikely to do so now or in the future.


Regulatory alignment was always an option - one rejected by the UK, not "never offered" by the EU.
This whole story is based on:
"Senior government figures were said by the Sunday Times to be *revisiting a Brexit trading arrangement** offered by the EU last year*, which would get rid of 80% of the checks between Great Britain and Northern Ireland and open up access to the single market."
It was on the table  with Frost negotiating NI Protocol, rejected for the publicly stated reason that the UK-state didn't want to align with EU standards - which suggests it wanted to lower those standards.


----------



## TopCat (Nov 21, 2022)

ska invita said:


> Regulatory alignment was always an option - one rejected by the UK, not "never offered" by the EU.
> This whole staroy is based on:
> "Senior government figures were said by the Sunday Times to be *revisiting a Brexit trading arrangement** offered by the EU last year*, which would get rid of 80% of the checks between Great Britain and Northern Ireland and open up access to the single market."
> It was on the table  with Frost negotiating NI Protocol, rejected for the publicly stated reason that the UK-state didn't want to align with EU standards - which suggests it wanted to lower those standards.


When did the EU offer a Swiss style deal requiring regulatory alignment but no free movement?


----------



## ska invita (Nov 21, 2022)

TopCat said:


> When did the EU offer a Swiss style deal requiring regulatory alignment but no free movement?


i just said:
"Senior government figures were said by the Sunday Times to be *revisiting a Brexit trading arrangement** offered by the EU last year*, which would get rid of 80% of the checks between Great Britain and Northern Ireland and open up access to the single market."


----------



## TopCat (Nov 21, 2022)

ska invita said:


> i just said:
> "Senior government figures were said by the Sunday Times to be *revisiting a Brexit trading arrangement** offered by the EU last year*, which would get rid of 80% of the checks between Great Britain and Northern Ireland and open up access to the single market."



Thanks for clarifying


----------



## bimble (Nov 21, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> View attachment 352353


----------



## Tanya1982 (Nov 21, 2022)

bimble said:


> View attachment 352356


And she wasn't even on a march - she was just going into Tesco when that photo was taken.


----------



## bimble (Nov 21, 2022)

Tanya1982 said:


> And she wasn't even on a march - she was just going into Tesco when that photo was taken.


Hopefully to the laundrette with that coat.


----------



## TopCat (Nov 21, 2022)

Tesco vs Waitrose


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 21, 2022)

TopCat said:


> Tesco vs Waitrose


what a choice. it'd have to be waitrose, they've fewer links to the tory party


----------



## Raheem (Nov 21, 2022)

TopCat said:


> Tesco vs Waitrose


Shittest FA Cup draw ever.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 21, 2022)

TopCat said:


> Tesco vs Waitrose


Multinational, neoliberal, finacialised corporate vs national, trust held/workers PLC, eh?


----------



## bimble (Nov 21, 2022)

TopCat you seem to have an unhealthy obsession with waitrose can you explain it, did something happen ?


----------



## TopCat (Nov 21, 2022)

bimble said:


> TopCat you seem to have an unhealthy obsession with waitrose can you explain it, did something happen ?


Fave shop of remoaners and rich people


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 21, 2022)

TopCat said:


> Fave shop of remoaners and rich people


it's not as good as it used to be


----------



## The39thStep (Nov 21, 2022)

bimble said:


> Hopefully to the laundrette with that coat.


Its a bit  grubby


----------



## Artaxerxes (Nov 21, 2022)

bimble said:


> This, an annoying twitter thread, is i think a decent summary of what stage of the fuckup we are currently at:





It’s Peston so automatically not worth reading


----------



## bimble (Nov 21, 2022)

TopCat said:


> Fave shop of remoaners and rich people


its a really shit shorthand you know, like for instance now i live in a Waitrise type place, massive Waitrose with a huge wine selection, and the place is full of old rich people who led to it being a leave constituency whilst where i lived before, brixton, no waitrose in sight and one of the biggest remoan places in the whole country.


----------



## TopCat (Nov 21, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Its a bit  grubby


Reminds me of an interview I did re Thatchers death. Loads of tanks commented on my English teeth.


----------



## bimble (Nov 21, 2022)

Artaxerxes said:


> It’s Peston so automatically not worth reading


would usually agree, thought his take on this moment was about right though.
Short version: The endless pathetic drama of warring factions of tories, the same thing that caused brexit in the first place, continues now to define how it goes.


----------



## TopCat (Nov 21, 2022)

bimble said:


> its a really shit shorthand you know, like for instance now i live in a Waitrise type place, massive Waitrose with a huge wine selection, and the place is full of old rich people who and it voted leave, whilst before, brixton, there wasn't a waitrose in sight and it was one of the biggest remoan places in the whole country.


Brixton voted remain but hardly anyone moans on about the result. That’s more the bourgeoisie that does that.


----------



## Karl Masks (Nov 21, 2022)

bimble said:


> TopCat you seem to have an unhealthy obsession with waitrose can you explain it, did something happen ?


It's where officer dibble shops


----------



## Karl Masks (Nov 21, 2022)

TopCat said:


> Brixton voted remain but hardly anyone moans on about the result. That’s more the bourgeoisie that does that.


And people taht don't want to live in a collapsing economy with tiny horizons ruled by loons


----------



## bimble (Nov 21, 2022)

TopCat said:


> Brixton voted remain but hardly anyone moans on about the result. That’s more the bourgeoisie that does that.


why did it vote remain do you think? Was it the avocado people ?


----------



## Yossarian (Nov 21, 2022)

Hardworking, salt-of-the-earth Remain types tended to be Tesco shoppers, while Leave voters were more inclined to take their Range Rovers to Sainsbury's, according to this pre-referendum poll.


----------



## TopCat (Nov 21, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> And people taht don't want to live in a collapsing economy with tiny horizons ruled by loons


Capitalist types like you. Go for growth eh?


----------



## TopCat (Nov 21, 2022)

bimble said:


> why did it vote remain do you think? Was it the avocado people ?


I spoke to loads. A wide range of opinions and motivations.


----------



## TopCat (Nov 21, 2022)

Yossarian said:


> Hardworking, salt-of-the-earth Remain types tended to be Tesco shoppers, while Leave voters were more inclined to take their Range Rovers to Sainsbury's, according to this pre-referendum poll.
> 
> View attachment 352369


Where is Waitrose?


----------



## Karl Masks (Nov 21, 2022)

TopCat said:


> Capitalist types like you. Go for growth eh?


of all the stupidest things to say, that was certainly one of them


----------



## bimble (Nov 21, 2022)

TopCat said:


> Capitalist types like you. Go for growth eh?


Unlike Jacob Rees Mogg and Boris Johnson and the tory party in general, the vanguard of Britain's anti capitalist revolution.
It's been six years of this shit and you still manage to imagine that brexit is some sort of triumph for the working man, its quite amazing.


----------



## Raheem (Nov 21, 2022)

TopCat said:


> Where is Waitrose?


Down south, mostly.

Manchester voted remain, but there isn't a Waitrose in Manchester.

(ETA wasn't at the time, but there's a mini one in Piccadilly train station now, for the Londoners. A benefit of Brexit, I suppose.)


----------



## TopCat (Nov 21, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> of all the stupidest things to say, that was certainly one of them


Says Mr Pompous


----------



## Karl Masks (Nov 21, 2022)

TopCat said:


> Says Mr Pompous


Him too.


----------



## bimble (Nov 21, 2022)

It wasn’t whether you ate avocados or not it was whether or not you owned your own home, home ownership & oldness, that was the strongest predictor of voting leave.


----------



## TopCat (Nov 21, 2022)

bimble said:


> It wasn’t whether you ate avocados or not it was whether or not you owned your own home, home ownership & oldness, that was the strongest predictor of voting leave.


Not for me.


----------



## xenon (Nov 21, 2022)

Quite enjoying this thread today. The supermarket stuff in particular.


----------



## bimble (Nov 21, 2022)

TopCat said:


> Not for me.


No, you are an outlier, a rare creature, like a remoaner who doesn’t drink lattes.


----------



## xenon (Nov 21, 2022)

Avocados are rank.  Been into Waitrose once, maybe twice. Spoiled Ballot.


----------



## TopCat (Nov 21, 2022)

bimble said:


> No, you are an outlier, a rare creature, like a remoaner who doesn’t drink lattes.


People who don’t own houses are not rare.


----------



## TopCat (Nov 21, 2022)

Though people I know of who own houses and don’t need to work all voted remain.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Nov 21, 2022)

That’s nice, I don’t own a house, never went to uni and I voted remain to.

Middle  class by association I guess


----------



## TopCat (Nov 21, 2022)

Artaxerxes said:


> That’s nice, I don’t own a house, never went to uni and I voted remain to.
> 
> Middle  class by association I guess


Aspiring


----------



## bimble (Nov 21, 2022)

TopCat said:


> People who don’t own houses are not rare.


I was talking about the fact that people who own houses were far more likely to vote leave. Your replies are always to something that nobody has said, it’s a bit boring.


----------



## TopCat (Nov 21, 2022)

bimble said:


> I was talking about the fact that people who own houses were far more likely to vote leave. Your replies are always to something that nobody has said, it’s a bit boring.


Better than your drivel to be fair.


----------



## bimble (Nov 21, 2022)

TopCat said:


> Better than your drivel to be fair.


no, my drivel is better than yours.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 21, 2022)

xenon said:


> Avocados are rank.  Been into Waitrose once, maybe twice. Spoiled Ballot.


I like avocados, shop anywhere I can find yellow reduction labels and didn't bother voting in the tory referendum; I reckon we must representing statistical outliers or summat!


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 21, 2022)

bimble said:


> no, my drivel is better than yours.


by better do you mean more drivelly?


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 21, 2022)

TopCat said:


> Though people I know of who own houses and don’t need to work all voted remain.



Not all Remain voters are pious and irritable middle class liberals who shop at Waitrose. But all pious and irritable middle class liberals who shop at Waitrose voted remain. 

Surely we can all agree with that?


----------



## ouirdeaux (Nov 21, 2022)

It doesn't sound all that likely to me, but it's nice to see you are trying to find the good even in the pious and irritable middle-class liberals you presumably despise.


----------



## bimble (Nov 21, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Not all Remain voters are pious and irritable middle class liberals who shop at Waitrose. But all pious and irritable middle class liberals who shop at Waitrose voted remain.
> 
> Surely we can all agree with that?


nope! My next door neighbours fit that description perfectly, and they were leave.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 21, 2022)

ouirdeaux said:


> It doesn't sound all that likely to me, but it's nice to see you are trying to find the good even in the pious and irritable middle-class liberals you presumably despise.



I’ve met loads of sound working class people who voted remain. But, I’ve never met a middle class liberal who voted out.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 21, 2022)

bimble said:


> nope! My next door neighbours fit that description perfectly, and they were leave.



If you bang on at them like you do here they might have voted out just to annoy you rather than as a matter of conviction, so I’m not allowing that one.


----------



## bimble (Nov 21, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> by better do you mean more drivelly?


TopCat just makes me feel a bit sad, because i come here for a barney and though he tries very hard to be annoying he fails, because he just posts stuff about waitrose and seems totally happy with the tory brexit he's won so what can you say really.


----------



## bimble (Nov 21, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I’ve met loads of sound working class people who voted remain. But, I’ve never met a middle class liberal who voted out.


You should meet the yoga teachers next door. I think there must be quite a few just like them, and plenty round here.
 They thought that they'd be insulated from any potential downsides that's the thing, cushioned by their secure little lives.

Appetite for risk & willingness to dismiss "project fear" was to some extent related to how well insulated people felt, so whilst some of leave was definitely 'it cant get any worse for me so fuck it / let’s try something different’, some of it was 'i'm fine anything that goes badly with it can't possibly hurt me'.


----------



## Raheem (Nov 21, 2022)

EFTA enthusiasts shop in Iceland.


----------



## Kaka Tim (Nov 21, 2022)

the idea that leave and remain was driven by, or defined by class is total and utter bollocks. As has been pointed out - it was defined by how old people were more than anything else - followed by home ownership and level of education. Older, white working class people from poorer northern towns and hadn't been to university ended up being help up as representative of "typical leave voter" - ignoring everybody else. Younger people overwhelmingly voted remain - it was there futures that were being fucked over, whilst retired people were insulated and could indulge their grudges/xenophobia/romantic nationalism/ delusional ultra-leftism.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 21, 2022)

Kaka Tim said:


> the idea that leave and remain was driven by, or defined by class is total and utter bollocks. As has been pointed out - it was defined by how old people were more than anything else - followed by home ownership and level of education. Older, white working class people from poorer northern towns and hadn't been to university ended up being help up as representative of "typical leave voter" - ignoring everybody else. Younger people overwhelmingly voted remain - it was there futures that were being fucked over, whilst retired people were insulated and could indulge their grudges/xenophobia/romantic nationalism/ delusional ultra-leftism.


Much as I'd like to agree with that, there was a clear socio-economic trend to the binary vote. We've had this posted many times before but it bears repetition:


----------



## Karl Masks (Nov 21, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I’ve met loads of sound working class people who voted remain. But, I’ve never met a middle class liberal who voted out.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 21, 2022)

brogdale said:


> Much as I'd like to agree with that, there was a clear socio-economic trend to the binary vote. We've had this posted many times before but it bears repetition:
> 
> View attachment 352386


The devil is in the detail, though. A majority of under-25s voted remain across the class spectrum. And a majority of over-65s voted leave across the spectrum. And of course, a higher percentage of over-65s vote. Plus the class structure of the vote differed markedly in different parts of the country. The w/c leave vote in much of northern England was real enough. But so was the w/c remain vote in London, Liverpool and Manchester.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 21, 2022)

littlebabyjesus said:


> The devil is in the detail, though. A majority of under-25s voted remain across the class spectrum. And a majority of over-65s voted leave across the spectrum. And of course, a higher percentage of over-65s vote.


Accepted that the cross-breaks would add nuance, but to deny the basic pattern is clearly wrong.


----------



## Yossarian (Nov 21, 2022)

Kaka Tim said:


> the idea that leave and remain was driven by, or defined by class is total and utter bollocks. As has been pointed out - it was defined by how old people were more than anything else - followed by home ownership and level of education. Older, white working class people from poorer northern towns and hadn't been to university ended up being help up as representative of "typical leave voter" - ignoring everybody else. Younger people overwhelmingly voted remain - it was there futures that were being fucked over, whilst retired people were insulated and could indulge their grudges/xenophobia/romantic nationalism/ delusional ultra-leftism.



The people almost entirely ignored, of course, were the millions of working-class permanent residents from EU countries and beyond who didn't get a say  - there would no doubt have been many more of them voting if the cost of applying for citizenship wasn't an exorbitant £1,330 per adult and £1,012 per child.


----------



## bimble (Nov 21, 2022)

i just enjoyed this, someone over at Conservative Home has looked at the evidence and knows the game is up. "The fight for Brexit is on again and time is running out."


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 21, 2022)

brogdale said:


> Accepted that the cross-breaks would add nuance, but to deny the basic pattern is clearly wrong.


I agree that it shouldn't be denied. However, the difference in age make-up of those class groups is also a factor. Some methods of defining class produce marked bias by age. For example, this paper's definitions, the 'traditional working class' in the UK has an average age of 65. So I'd want to see how the classes were defined in the above. I suspect age bias.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 21, 2022)

Yossarian said:


> The people almost entirely ignored, of course, were the millions of working-class permanent residents from EU countries and beyond who didn't get a say  - there would no doubt have been many more of them voting if the cost of applying for citizenship wasn't an exorbitant £1,330 per adult and £1,012 per child.


And no reason to apply for it before Brexit. 3 million people, many of them resident here for decades. No vote.


----------



## ouirdeaux (Nov 21, 2022)

Like many who were born here, they couldn't believe that there were that many citizens who were thick as pigshit.


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## Tanya1982 (Nov 21, 2022)

I hate avocados.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 21, 2022)

ouirdeaux said:


> Like many who were born here, they couldn't believe that there were that many citizens who were thick as pigshit.



Good to see a remainer call it as they see it. Let’s replace the trashy Untermensch with hard working plucky migrants who can serve us our lattes eh!


----------



## Tanya1982 (Nov 21, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


>



'Meet the Brexit Britons' - no thank you.


----------



## B.I.G (Nov 21, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Good to see a remainer call it as they see it. Let’s replace the trashy Untermensch with hard working plucky migrants who can serve us our lattes eh!



Is that how you see the Europeans that live here, as people that work in coffee shops?


----------



## Yossarian (Nov 21, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Good to see a remainer call it as they see it. Let’s replace the trashy Untermensch with hard working plucky migrants who can serve us our lattes eh!



So you think the elites want ... a great replacement?


----------



## bimble (Nov 21, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Good to see a remainer call it as they see it. Let’s replace the trashy Untermensch with hard working plucky migrants who can serve us our lattes eh!


Replace is an interesting choice there, why would you go for that do you think immigrants were making our homegrown untermenschen disappear or something?
Nobody drinks lattes anymore though.


----------



## ouirdeaux (Nov 21, 2022)

The foreigners are sneaky. They go abroad. They even learn foreign languages! How can a proper Brit compete against that sort of foul play?


----------



## Yossarian (Nov 21, 2022)

bimble said:


> Replace is an interesting choice there, why would you go for that do you think immigrants were making our homegrown untermenschen disappear or something?
> Nobody drinks lattes anymore though.



"They want to replace us with migrants who can serve them their lattes" could be straight from the mouth of Tucker Carlson, ffs.


----------



## The39thStep (Nov 21, 2022)




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## TopCat (Nov 21, 2022)

Its less now about who voted what in 2016. The anti democratic rump of people _still _moaning about Brexit are much more middle class and richer than those who voted remain in 2016. It's an exercise in self entitled arrogance by a small minority, many of whom absolutely adore Waitrose and totally loathe chippy, lazy working class people. The mask is off and it's an ugly face.


----------



## bimble (Nov 21, 2022)

How long before the democratic thing to do would be to have another vote on it. What when the polls get to 80% saying they think brexit was a mistake is the overwhelming 52% from 2016 sacred for ever and ever?


----------



## TopCat (Nov 21, 2022)

Tanya1982 said:


> blah blah blah





bimble said:


> How long before the democratic thing to do would be to have another vote on it. What when the polls get to 80% saying they think brexit was a mistake.


If remain had won you lot would have said never another vote. Cast in stone it would have been.


----------



## bimble (Nov 21, 2022)

TopCat said:


> If remain had won you lot would have said never another vote. Cast in stone it would have been.


We had a vote back in the 70s didnt we, and it was 67% wanting to be part of the Eu.
Bunch of anti-democratic moaners mostly members of the conservative party just wouldn't let it lie.


----------



## TopCat (Nov 21, 2022)

bimble said:


> We had a vote back in the 70s didnt we, and it was 67% wanting to be part of the Eu.
> Bunch of anti democratic moaners wouldn't let it lie.


It's the one good point you have made in months.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 21, 2022)

bimble said:


> We had a vote back in the 70s didnt we, and it was 67% wanting to be part of the Eu.
> Bunch of anti democratic moaners wouldn't let it lie.



I’m with you Bimble. We should vote every 40 years or so on membership. If the EU still exists in 2056 we should have a vote then


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 21, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I’m with you Bimble. We should vote every 40 years or so on membership. If the EU still exists in 2056 we should have a vote then



Added bonus, think how long this thread will be by then…


----------



## JimW (Nov 21, 2022)

Ireland's second vote on the Lisbon treaty had a much quicker turnaround, nothing says democracy like keeping voting until we get the answer we want.


----------



## bimble (Nov 21, 2022)

17.4 million seems to be the magic number. in 2016 it was 17,410,742 leave and 16,141,241 remain, back in 1975 it went like this, pointless observation but odd.


----------



## TopCat (Nov 21, 2022)

JimW said:


> Ireland's second vote on the Lisbon treaty had a much quicker turnaround, nothing says democracy like keeping voting until we get the answer we want.


The EU took democracy and wiped it's arse on it.


----------



## ruffneck23 (Nov 21, 2022)

.


----------



## bimble (Nov 21, 2022)

But seriously, how long do we have to "respect" a result from a 52 48 referendum in 2016?
Is it really democratic to keep respecting it for a generation or two even if polls carry on showing a large & growing majority of currently-alive people think that it was a mistake?


----------



## TopCat (Nov 21, 2022)

bimble said:


> But seriously, how long do we have to "respect" a result from a 52 48 referendum in 2016?
> Is it really democratic to keep respecting it for a generation or two even if polls carry on showing a large & growing majority of currently-alive people think that it was a mistake?


Well the route to changing things is to get a mainstream party to adopt re-joining and support them to win a general election with a big majority. The Lib Dems embraced this. Didn't do so well. I suspect though that Labour will get pushed into this position by Liberals (who give not a fuck for working class people) with the result being more Tory wins.


----------



## bimble (Nov 21, 2022)

TopCat said:


> Well the route to changing things is to get a mainstream party to adopt re-joining and support them to win a general election with a big majority. The Lib Dems embraced this. Didn't do so well. I suspect though that Labour will get pushed into this position by Liberals (who give not a fuck for working class people) with the result being more Tory wins.


Thats not what happened this time though is it. Maybe there'll just be something like a rejoin version of ukip which which will eventually get enough votes that it scares whoever is in power into adopting all its aims in order to neutralise the threat, just like the tories ended up doing with ukip.


----------



## bimble (Nov 21, 2022)

early 90s Ukip started, and they are proud of it. So it took them 20 years to gain maximum influence which seems about right, but a rejoin party would probably have better graphic designers.


----------



## The39thStep (Nov 21, 2022)

Cue the rejaimers on here for the next ten years hopefully looking into the distance asking “is this our cab? “


----------



## bimble (Nov 21, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> the rejaimers


this doesn't work.


----------



## The39thStep (Nov 21, 2022)

bimble said:


> this doesnt work.


Be patient, could be a go-er ?


----------



## bimble (Nov 21, 2022)

It'll probably be called something crappy to do with a star, the rejoin party. It will be not much better than ukip was but will probably have more diverse funding streams.


----------



## JimW (Nov 21, 2022)

Careful, smack of 5 Star in Italy


----------



## bimble (Nov 21, 2022)

The ERG is losing support (fewer MPs happy to give them our money than before).  
That is probably a little sign of where the wind's blowing for all the noise they still make. 








						European Research Group Loses Two-Thirds of its Paid-Up Members – Byline Times
					

The hard-Brexit lobbying group, which produces research paid for by taxpayer-funded expenses, appears to be losing support




					bylinetimes.com


----------



## Artaxerxes (Nov 21, 2022)

bimble said:


> View attachment 352399
> 
> early 90s Ukip started, and they are proud of it. So it took them 20 years to gain maximum influence which seems about right, but a rejoin party would probably have better graphic designers.



Doubt.


----------



## gosub (Nov 21, 2022)

bimble said:


> But seriously, how long do we have to "respect" a result from a 52 48 referendum in 2016?
> Is it really democratic to keep respecting it for a generation or two even if polls carry on showing a large & growing majority of currently-alive people think that it was a mistake?


I think the idea of respecting the result sailed ages ago. 
But we've only had two of the four horseman so far so loads more stuff to come where the important thing that isn't is being in the EU


----------



## Serge Forward (Nov 21, 2022)

Tanya1982 said:


> I hate avocados.


Try them with oil and vinegar dressing. They're much better.


----------



## The39thStep (Nov 21, 2022)

Chester by election does indeed have a rejoin candidate . Perhaps this will be the spark



> Local Chester resident & voter Peter Forster-Dean welcomed the Rejoin EU Party’s presence in the by-election:
> “This election is a chance for Chester to change the direction of British politics."











						Election 22: Richard Hewison of the Rejoin EU party
					

1.Tell us about yourself and why you’re standingMy name is Richard Hewison and whilst I am not a professional politician, I am someone who believes passionately in maximising personal freedom…




					thechesterblog.com


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## Karl Masks (Nov 21, 2022)

TopCat said:


> Well the route to changing things is to get a mainstream party to adopt re-joining and support them to win a general election with a big majority. The Lib Dems embraced this. Didn't do so well. I suspect though that Labour will get pushed into this position by Liberals (who give not a fuck for working class people) with the result being more Tory wins.


whereas brexiteers give all the damns about working class people, by trashing the economy and putting us under the bootheel of utter maniacs. Well done


----------



## ouirdeaux (Nov 21, 2022)

Hey, we've got all that sovereignty, remember?


----------



## Chz (Nov 22, 2022)

Yossarian said:


> The people almost entirely ignored, of course, were the millions of working-class permanent residents from EU countries and beyond who didn't get a say  - there would no doubt have been many more of them voting if the cost of applying for citizenship wasn't an exorbitant £1,330 per adult and £1,012 per child.


Whilst that is the main reason thst I'm not a UK citizen, I got to vote anyway because Commonwealthers are special somehow. (I think that's inane, but I'm not going to complain too loudly about it!) Btw, it costs a lot more than that in terms of time, effort and possible legal fees. I can't justify it for something that essentially grants me no benefits (since I can vote). Other countries might encourage their migrants to become citizens... My son is the only one in the house with a British passport.


----------



## MrCurry (Nov 22, 2022)

Truly bonkers how much U.K. citizenship applications cost. My Swedish citizenship cost me 1,500kr last year - about £120..


----------



## bimble (Nov 22, 2022)

i had no idea it cost that much to be British. Becoming a slovakian was a lot of paperwork but i think about £200 in the end including the passport.


----------



## Tanya1982 (Nov 22, 2022)

Serge Forward said:


> Try them with oil and vinegar dressing. They're much better.


I've tried them in various formats over the course of my life, prepared in diverse ways in many countries where they're a commonplace ingredient or standalone. I don't like them. I'm not eating them wrongly, I just don't like them.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 22, 2022)

bimble said:


> i had no idea it cost that much to be British. Becoming a slovakian was a lot of paperwork but i think about £200 in the end including the passport.


It was ramped up in the late 90s/early 2000s. Used to cost a couple of hundred quid and involved doing a short ceremony in front of a solicitor. Now you have to sit a written exam and do all sorts of stupid, meaningless shit.

There are now also various kinds of work visas that cost thousands.


----------



## Tanya1982 (Nov 22, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Chester by election does indeed have a rejoin candidate . Perhaps this will be the spark
> 
> 
> 
> ...


How much was your Portuguese citizenship/residency/whatever?


----------



## The39thStep (Nov 22, 2022)

Tanya1982 said:


> How much was your Portuguese citizenship/residency/whatever?


Residency , I think about 25/30 euros .( reminds me I need to sort out renewing it) . 
I can vote in local ie municipal elections but not national and that would include a national referendum. I don’t think there are many countries that allow foreigners who haven’t got full citizenship to vote in national elections .


----------



## Serge Forward (Nov 22, 2022)

Tanya1982 said:


> I've tried them in various formats over the course of my life, prepared in diverse ways in many countries where they're a commonplace ingredient or standalone. I don't like them. I'm not eating them wrongly, I just don't like them.


I promise not to make any moral judgements about you not liking them


----------



## Tanya1982 (Nov 22, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Residency , I think about 25/30 euros .( reminds me I need to sort out renewing it) .
> I can vote in local ie municipal elections but not national and that would include a national referendum. I don’t think there are many countries that allow foreigners who haven’t got full citizenship to vote in national elections .


For €25, you can't complain. Those living in the UK, excluded by the prohibitive cost of changing their status, are in a different position.


----------



## The39thStep (Nov 22, 2022)

Tanya1982 said:


> For €25, you can't complain. Those living in the UK, excluded by the prohibitive cost of changing their status, are in a different position.


I’m haven’t complained , I simply answered your question .  The fees and conditions for residency vary from country to country . 
How  much is settled status in the U.K.?


----------



## JimW (Nov 22, 2022)

My two year spousal residency costs CNY1,000 or so IIRC, would be technical eligible for a green card equivalent next time I think after over five years straight in residence but there are some income requirements I'd likely not meet. Should be able to renew current status indefinitely until war breaks out at least. Coming the other way been hard to even bring family home on a visit due to racist UK requirements, not helped by wife being Fujianese so top of list of suspected illegal immigrants.


----------



## Chz (Nov 22, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> I’m haven’t complained , I simply answered your question .  The fees and conditions for residency vary from country to country .
> How  much is settled status in the U.K.?


You've made me look up some of the costs to see what's changed. For most, settled status is £1500. But resident EU citizens got a sweet deal as a part of brexit that's a small fraction of that. More interesting to me is that they've closed my loophole - indefinite leave to remain is now an absurd £2400 so it would be cheaper to become a citizen now as it's a grand cheaper. I'm glad I got that sorted before the Home Office went totally bonkers.


----------



## The39thStep (Nov 22, 2022)

Chz said:


> You've made me look up some of the costs to see what's changed. For most, settled status is £1500. But resident EU citizens got a sweet deal as a part of brexit that's a small fraction of that. More interesting to me is that they've closed my loophole - indefinite leave to remain is now an absurd £2400 so it would be cheaper to become a citizen now as it's a grand cheaper. I'm glad I got that sorted before the Home Office went totally bonkers.


Thanks , I had no idea of whether there were costs or not for the pre Brexit citizens. My new post Brexit residencia is due but I haven't looked up the new cost.


----------



## Tanya1982 (Nov 23, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> I’m haven’t complained , I simply answered your question .  The fees and conditions for residency vary from country to country .
> How  much is settled status in the U.K.?


Don't be so defensive. I was saying 'you can't complain' as in the generic you, and the common phrase 'can't complain'.

I know I simply asked you a question and you simply answered it, so I simply responded to it in what I thought was a fairly friendly and generic way. If it wasn't, I'll reflect on that, but your response there _was_ incredibly defensive and lacking generosity for no real reason.

I think we've exchanged a couple of posts in the past that have been fairly good natured on each side, so I'm a little disappointed and surprised with this one.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 23, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> I’m haven’t complained , I simply answered your question .  The fees and conditions for residency vary from country to country .
> How  much is settled status in the U.K.?


Basic point.

You benefitted from the UK's membership of the EU in a way that people can't benefit from now.

Yet you support Brexit.

Is there a way of squaring that circle? I'll be honest. Every single pro-brexit post from you comes across to me as someone who still lives in the UK as completely and utterly clueless. And to be specific, any post from you that mentions class is particularly clueless.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 23, 2022)

Meanwhile there are other pro-brexit people on here banging on about class who thought nothing back in the day of spunking 100 quid on drugs on a night out. You're not downtrodden working class heroes. You're middle class degenerates.

And yes, ---, among other shitty things that you are, that's you. Don't ask me to elaborate. Don't fucking dare.

[ed: real name removed]


----------



## prunus (Nov 23, 2022)

I’m just going to leave this here for the headline. 









						Danish Crown to build £100m gammon plant in UK despite Brexit red tape
					

Pork producer said it was required to produce an additional 33,000 pages of paperwork per year




					www.telegraph.co.uk


----------



## prunus (Nov 23, 2022)

brogdale said:


> Much as I'd like to agree with that, there was a clear socio-economic trend to the binary vote. We've had this posted many times before but it bears repetition:
> 
> View attachment 352386



I think that is showing the effect of education levels for which class is a proxy.  Control for the former and the apparent correlation reverses, iirc.


----------



## The39thStep (Nov 23, 2022)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Basic point.
> 
> You benefitted from the UK's membership of the EU in a way that people can't benefit from now.
> 
> ...



Thank you and how's your good self at one in the morning comrade


----------



## mojo pixy (Nov 23, 2022)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Basic point.
> 
> You benefitted from the UK's membership of the EU in a way that people can't benefit from now.
> 
> Yet you support Brexit.





littlebabyjesus said:


> Meanwhile there are other pro-brexit people on here banging on about class who thought nothing back in the day of spunking 100 quid on drugs on a night out. You're not downtrodden working class heroes. You're middle class degenerates.


Yes and yes. The grandstanding is real.


----------



## bimble (Nov 23, 2022)

Pressure to rejoin the EU will only grow if Brexit is not seen to deliver
"We have seen all the downsides and none of the potential benefits.  . Brexit has become an article of faith that brooks no apostasy, whatever the damage that may be inflicted on the country by rigid adherence.."

The Telegraph, of all places, publishing this sort of take has got to be a sign of things shifting.


----------



## ska invita (Nov 23, 2022)

amusing article that. 
i wonder what someone has to do to "help to make it work"?


----------



## bimble (Nov 23, 2022)

“Make brexit work” in those exact words is what all politicians keep promising to do but for how many years longer they’ll feel obligated to keep saying it idk.


----------



## inva (Nov 23, 2022)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Don't ask me to elaborate.


Better off deleting it tbh.


----------



## ska invita (Nov 23, 2022)

bimble said:


> “Make brexit work” in those exact words is what all politicians keep promising to do but for how many years longer they’ll feel obligated to keep saying it idk.


if we get a Republican & Tory leadership synchronised in the US and UK we'll start to see it really work


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 23, 2022)

ska invita said:


> if we get a Republican & Tory leadership synchronised in the US and UK we'll start to see it really work


You say that. But you might see Ireland intrude as an obstacle between the two governments, the United States being a guarantor of the gfa


----------



## Yossarian (Nov 23, 2022)

bimble said:


> “Make brexit work” in those exact words is what all politicians keep promising to do but for how many years longer they’ll feel obligated to keep saying it idk.



I think it'll be "make Brexit work" - or at least "verb Brexit verb" - through the next election at least. In the one after that, when there will be people voting who were four or five years old at the time of the referendum, the conversation might be different.


----------



## philosophical (Nov 23, 2022)

Those who voted remain are not obliged to help leave to work.
Those who voted remain are at liberty to point out or highlight the problems created, and the bad things that have arisen as a result of the vote to leave.
Isn’t it patronising to assume that leave voters didn’t know what they were voting for?
I assume they knew, and they now have to solve all the problems they have created, and they can have first dibs at all the benefits and great things they have invited on for all I care.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 23, 2022)

Yossarian said:


> I think it'll be "make Brexit work" - or at least "verb Brexit verb" - through the next election at least. In the one after that, when there will be people voting who were four or five years old at the time of the referendum, the conversation might be different.


You think the next parliament will last five years?


----------



## bimble (Nov 23, 2022)

Yossarian said:


> I think it'll be "make Brexit work" - or at least "verb Brexit verb" - through the next election at least. In the one after that, when there will be people voting who were four or five years old at the time of the referendum, the conversation might be different.


Probably.
Trying to think of anything else that people regularly claim that they are trying to “make … work”, and all I can think of is doomed marriages or broken electrical appliances, nothing that lasts very long.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 23, 2022)

ska invita said:


> amusing article that.
> i wonder what someone has to do to "help to make it work"?
> View attachment 352561


That "make it work" bollocks from the Telegraph feels of a piece with advice to workers that they shouldn't expect pay rises/strike because it's against the "national interest". It also singularly fails to acknowledge that RW anti-Common-market pressure groups were actively campaigning against the trade bloc throughout the 47 years of UK membership and for 12 years before the UK's accession to the EEC.


----------



## bimble (Nov 23, 2022)

It’s a weird situation where all of them (sunak starmer) go on about how they are determined to ‘make brexit work’ which every time they say it is obviously an acknowledgment that they do not think brexit is working. But of course they would never dream of admitting that apart from when they constantly do. Funny country.


----------



## ska invita (Nov 23, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> You say that. But you might see Ireland intrude as an obstacle between the two governments, the United States being a guarantor of the gfa


No point overly speculating, but the big Brexit dividend that hasn't happened was Liam Foxs US trade deal which Trump and Johnson would've persued with gusto. They will definitely try again when the opportunity comes up


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 23, 2022)

ska invita said:


> No point overly speculating, but the big Brexit dividend that hasn't happened was Liam Foxs US trade deal which Trump and Johnson would've persued with gusto. They will definitely try again when the opportunity comes up


You'll no doubt recall Pelosi said how important Ireland was to that discussion


----------



## prunus (Nov 23, 2022)

ska invita said:


> No point overly speculating, but the big Brexit dividend that hasn't happened was Liam Foxs US trade deal which Trump and Johnson would've persued with gusto. They will definitely try again when the opportunity comes up



They might try (and those two might have tried had they not both slipped in their own faeces and fell on their faces), but the way US politics works means that it ain’t going to happen unless a) the unsolvable NI problem is solved and b) the UK totally capitulates to a royal rumping.

The first is impossible and the second would be very bad for the UK.  And this is the big dividend?


----------



## ska invita (Nov 23, 2022)

prunus said:


> And this is the big dividend?


Yes.


----------



## gosub (Nov 23, 2022)

prunus said:


> They might try (and those two might have tried had they not both slipped in their own faeces and fell on their faces), but the way US politics works means that it ain’t going to happen unless a) the unsolvable NI problem is solved and b) the UK totally capitulates to a royal rumping.
> 
> The first is impossible and the second would be very bad for the UK.  And this is the big dividend?


Only dividend I can see is being nowhere near the EU as it tries to resolve the intractable issues of the EUro that it has kicked down the road over a decade.  As much as the UK may have been an obstacle in the past, haven't had that excuse for years


----------



## TopCat (Nov 23, 2022)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Meanwhile there are other pro-brexit people on here banging on about class who thought nothing back in the day of spunking 100 quid on drugs on a night out. You're not downtrodden working class heroes. You're middle class degenerates.
> 
> And yes, <redacted>, among other shitty things that you are, that's you. Don't ask me to elaborate. Don't fucking dare.


Ok LBJ. You carry on with your bile.  Mention my name on here again although and we will have proper beef.


----------



## TopCat (Nov 23, 2022)

inva said:


> Better off deleting it tbh.


His entitled bile must be heard?


----------



## inva (Nov 23, 2022)

TopCat said:


> His entitled bile must be heard?


Fair enough! Out of order using anyones real name out of the blue like that so hope you get an apology at least.


----------



## bimble (Nov 23, 2022)

Yeah that was below the belt, and out of character. There have to be rules of engagement on this thread even more than elsewhere because its year six in the trenches and everyone's feet are rotting.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 23, 2022)

bimble said:


> Yeah that was below the belt, and out of character. There have to be rules of engagement on this thread even more than elsewhere because its year six in the trenches and everyone's feet are rotting.


Will there be a thread kick about in no-mans-land in a month?


----------



## bimble (Nov 23, 2022)

brogdale said:


> Will there be a thread kick about in no-mans-land in a month?


christmas 2027 maybe


----------



## A380 (Nov 23, 2022)

prunus said:


> ...to a royal rumping....


I'm stealing this and will endeavour to use it conversation at least three times in the next week.


----------



## prunus (Nov 23, 2022)

A380 said:


> I'm stealing this and will endeavour to use it conversation at least three times in the next week.



I would consider it an honour.


----------



## Tanya1982 (Nov 24, 2022)

ska invita said:


> amusing article that.
> i wonder what someone has to do to "help to make it work"?
> View attachment 352561


On the first morning, shortly after currency trading was suspended and tens of billions of pounds had to be injected to stop the economy crashing, Brexiters were already taking a break from crowing to demand remainers get behind it and start coming up with ideas as to how to make it work. It might've been laughable had it not been so glaringly ominous. It's demoralizing to realise that after the better part of a decade, they're still doing that, looking around in a daze, demanding the impossible while simultaneously taking people to task for not interpreting their own absence of ideas into guaranteed dream delivery.


----------



## bimble (Nov 24, 2022)

Haha just seen Farage is promising that the Reform Party is going to stand a candidate everywhere for the GE and not make any deals.

There’ll probably be Make Britain Great Again hats and their thing is all about stopping immigrants and ‘doing brexit properly’, tories are so very fucked.











						I didn't spend 25 years battling for Brexit only to watch the Tories give it away
					

No more deals or standing aside: Reform UK will field a full slate of candidates at the next election




					www.telegraph.co.uk


----------



## Cerv (Nov 24, 2022)

didn't he make the same promise with the Brexit Party in 2019, right up until they decided not to stand against most Tories?


----------



## bimble (Nov 24, 2022)

Cerv said:


> didn't he make the same promise with the Brexit Party in 2019, right up until they decided not to stand against most Tories?


yeah but thats cos boris was all in to Get Brexit Done.
These ones you can't trust them, the chancellor is obviously shifty because he wants to do more trade with foreigners.

Its quite an 'article' he wrote there, he knows his audience, he's speaking to the people who voted leave to get rid of immigrants and that will be a good stick to beat the tories with, the new numbers came out today, showing record numbers of immigrants now we have taken back control.
Minus numbers of Europeans, they're still leaving, but record immigration.


----------



## spitfire (Nov 24, 2022)

bimble said:


> Haha just seen Farage is promising that the Reform Party is going to stand a candidate everywhere for the GE and not make any deals.
> 
> There’ll probably be Make Britain Great Again hats and their thing is all about stopping immigrants and ‘doing brexit properly’, tories are so very fucked.
> 
> ...



What a racist cunt. Not even hiding it.

"When British citizens *–* many of whom are struggling to pay their own bills *–* see young men from different cultures hanging around in their towns and villages, they feel an understandable sense of confusion and anger at the lack of control shown by the state. The state’s first duty is to protect its own people, a principle that seems to have been shredded without discussion. "

But yeah, this should do for the tories good and proper. Forward to a socialist paradise with Kieth Stärmer.


----------



## bimble (Nov 24, 2022)

Course he's not hiding it he knows who butters his toast. Is that even an expression idk.


----------



## spitfire (Nov 24, 2022)

bimble said:


> Course he's not hiding it he knows who butters his toast. Is that even an expression idk.



It is now.


----------



## bimble (Nov 24, 2022)

The Betrayal of Brexit is a pretty toxic narrative, but what else is there, they can't say that it failed because it was a rubbish idea so it has to be about betrayal by the enemies of brexit, even though every one of the array of PMs we have had (and are likely to have next) stand there banging on all day about how much they believe in brexit and are going to make it work.


----------



## Yossarian (Nov 24, 2022)

spitfire said:


> What a racist cunt. Not even hiding it.



I'm surprised he hasn't just gone ahead and named it the "Send 'Em Back Where They Came From Party."


----------



## bimble (Nov 24, 2022)

What if he gets really good numbers. It seems possible. but then who would find his stupid party this time.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 24, 2022)

Yossarian said:


> I'm surprised he hasn't just gone ahead and named it the "Send 'Em Back Where They Came From Party."


The repatry party


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 24, 2022)

bimble said:


> What if he gets really good numbers. It seems possible. but then who would find his stupid party this time.


Good numbers. Perfect numbers. Numbers like 6, 28, 496, 8128


----------



## Yossarian (Nov 24, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> The repatry party



"There appears to have been a misunderstanding, when we said we wanted an Australian-style immigration system we were talking about imprisoning refugees on remote islands, not this points business."


----------



## not a trot (Nov 24, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> The repatry party



The Enoch was right party.


----------



## Serge Forward (Nov 24, 2022)

bimble said:


> The Betrayal of Brexit is a pretty toxic narrative, but what else is there, they can't say that it failed because it was a rubbish idea so it has to be about betrayal by the enemies of brexit, even though every one of the array of PMs we have had (and are likely to have next) stand there banging on all day about how much they believe in brexit and are going to make it work.


The Dolchstoßlegende Party.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 24, 2022)

Yossarian said:


> "There appears to have been a misunderstanding, when we said we wanted an Australian-style immigration system we were talking about imprisoning refugees on remote islands, not this points business."


Back in the day there was only one point you needed to get into Australia, a criminal record


----------



## brogdale (Nov 24, 2022)

bimble said:


> Haha just seen Farage is promising that the Reform Party is going to stand a candidate everywhere for the GE and not make any deals.
> 
> There’ll probably be Make Britain Great Again hats and their thing is all about stopping immigrants and ‘doing brexit properly’, tories are so very fucked.
> 
> ...


We've been here before; cunts saying out loud what tories actually believe has not previously led to them being fucked.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 24, 2022)

bimble said:


> Haha just seen Farage is promising that the Reform Party is going to stand a candidate everywhere for the GE and not make any deals.
> 
> There’ll probably be Make Britain Great Again hats and their thing is all about stopping immigrants and ‘doing brexit properly’, tories are so very fucked.
> 
> ...


Yeh they'll do as well as the national front did in 1979, if they're lucky


----------



## existentialist (Nov 24, 2022)

bimble said:


> What if he gets really good numbers. It seems possible. but then who would find his stupid party this time.


He's too niche. It just won't happen, in our electoral system. But it splits the Tory vote, so it's all good


----------



## contadino (Nov 24, 2022)

existentialist said:


> He's too niche. It just won't happen, in our electoral system. But it splits the Tory vote, so it's all good


And if it splits the Labour vote too, like last time?


----------



## The39thStep (Nov 24, 2022)

contadino said:


> And if it splits the Labour vote too, like last time?


why should it split the Labour vote  this time?


----------



## bimble (Nov 24, 2022)

Most people, including those who voted for it, think brexit has been shit so far.
 So a ‘the deep state betrayed our brexit’ party might do ok, just as a way of feeling better about the whole mess.


----------



## TopCat (Nov 24, 2022)

Well I reported the post  by little baby jesus that named me, slurred me and threatened me. No response but editor did take the time to hilariously attempt to slag me off on another thread.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 24, 2022)

TopCat said:


> Well I reported the post  by little baby jesus that named me, slurred me and threatened me. No response but editor did take the time to hilariously attempt to slag me off on another thread.


I reported someone posting my real name recently and no action was taken. But we're all equal here, even if some are more equal than others. I reported lbj's post too, so I might have poisoned that well topcat


----------



## ska invita (Nov 24, 2022)

TopCat said:


> Well I reported the post  by little baby jesus that named me, slurred me and threatened me. No response


the post has been edited by mods


----------



## ItStillWontWork (Nov 24, 2022)

MrSki said:


> A thank you to all the Brexiteers on the boards



You're welcome.


----------



## The39thStep (Nov 24, 2022)

ska invita said:


> the post has been edited by mods


post #12,844 needs editing as well


----------



## existentialist (Nov 24, 2022)

ItStillWontWork said:


> You're welcome.


And it's not often you'll here a Brexiteer say that


----------



## ItStillWontWork (Nov 24, 2022)

existentialist said:


> And it's not often you'll here a Brexiteer say that



I'm special though


----------



## existentialist (Nov 24, 2022)

ItStillWontWork said:


> I'm special though


I've always thought that about you


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 24, 2022)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Meanwhile there are other pro-brexit people on here banging on about class who thought nothing back in the day of spunking 100 quid on drugs on a night out. You're not downtrodden working class heroes. You're middle class degenerates.


They also buy expensive clothes. These building site workers that you clearly haven't met other than on the telly.
They don't have dinner parties though.


----------



## ska invita (Nov 24, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> post #12,844 needs editing as well


Reported


----------



## bimble (Nov 25, 2022)

how are they even trying to explain this now, is it still covid and russia? 
eta oh yeah, the thing now is to say that you do not agree with any of these gloomy predictions because we have had enough of experts etc.


----------



## ItStillWontWork (Nov 25, 2022)

I think one of the reasons Remain lost because they mistakenly believed Brexit was about economics. It wasn't. it was about sovereignty, identity, and representation. 

I am not French or German or Italian or whatever. I have no problem with Europeans, but I don't want to be one. I am English, and want politics to be carried out as close to home as possible. Looking back on it, that is ultimately why I voted Brexit.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 25, 2022)

ItStillWontWork said:


> I think one of the reasons Remain lost because they mistakenly believed Brexit was about economics. It wasn't. it was about sovereignty, identity, and representation.
> 
> I am not French or German or Italian or whatever. I have no problem with Europeans, but I don't want to be one. I am English, and want politics to be carried out as close to home as possible. Looking back on it, that is ultimately why I voted Brexit.


the problem with politics being carried out as close to home as possible is that our politicians, the people carrying them out, are as sorry a bunch of incompetent, lacklustre, shitferbrains misfits and fuckwits in the worst sense of all those words as you'll ever encounter


----------



## The39thStep (Nov 25, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> the problem with politics being carried out as close to home as possible is that our politicians, the people carrying them out, are as sorry a bunch of incompetent, lacklustre, shitferbrains misfits and fuckwits in the worst sense of all those words as you'll ever encounter


You'll find that sentiment in just about every EU state as well tbh


----------



## ItStillWontWork (Nov 25, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> the problem with politics being carried out as close to home as possible is that our politicians, the people carrying them out, are as sorry a bunch of incompetent, lacklustre, shitferbrains misfits and fuckwits in the worst sense of all those words as you'll ever encounter



Well I’d vote to ditch them in the channel too


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 25, 2022)

ItStillWontWork said:


> Well I’d vote to ditch them in the channel too


i'd go for the south sandwich trench, about 60 miles west of the south sandwich islands.


----------



## two sheds (Nov 25, 2022)

Mogg doesn't seem to have heard about dropping the EU laws wholesale according to Trading Standards and other watchdogs: 









						Brexit rush to axe EU laws ‘puts safety standards at risk’
					

Trading standards officers fear ‘recklessly irresponsible’ legislation poses danger to public




					www.independent.co.uk


----------



## bimble (Nov 25, 2022)

I really don’t think there’s a chance of them passing mogg’s stupid law. But then again who knows with this lot.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 25, 2022)

bimble said:


> I really don’t think there’s a chance of them passing mogg’s stupid law. But then again who knows with this lot.



the difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits


----------



## bimble (Nov 25, 2022)

ItStillWontWork said:


> I am not French or German or Italian or whatever. I have no problem with Europeans, but I don't want to be one. I am English


Do you feel more English now that we’ve left ?


----------



## bimble (Nov 25, 2022)

Maybe if we didn’t glorify the world wars so much in this country we wouldn’t have had to brexit. I reckon Poppy Day and all that is part of our problem. 

Pretty sure the French manage to feel French and the Italians feel Italian without finding it necessary to leave  in order to do so.


----------



## bimble (Nov 25, 2022)

Freedom from safe working hours & holiday pay and the return of our god given right to club seals over the head 👍


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 25, 2022)

bimble said:


> Maybe if we didn’t glorify the world wars so much in this country we wouldn’t have had to brexit. I reckon Poppy Day and all that is part of our problem.
> 
> Pretty sure the French manage to feel French and the Italians feel Italian without finding it necessary to leave  in order to do so.


remembrance has become more mawkish as the number of actual ww2 veterans dwindled. but they highlight the world wars as the small wars of retreat from empire and the wars in iraq and afghanistan have much less cachet


----------



## ItStillWontWork (Nov 25, 2022)

bimble said:


> Do you feel more English now that we’ve left ?



I feel more recognised as English than I did before. Is there anything wrong with that?


----------



## bimble (Nov 25, 2022)

ItStillWontWork said:


> I feel more recognised as English than I did before. Is there anything wrong with that?


More recognised as English by who? Foreigners? 
 I'm not actually trying to be rude i just really don't understand, but then i wouldn't cos different background.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 25, 2022)

ItStillWontWork said:


> I feel more recognised as English than I did before. Is there anything wrong with that?


Yeh, it's for all the wrong reasons


----------



## Yossarian (Nov 25, 2022)

bimble said:


> More recognised as English by who? Foreigners?
> I'm not actually trying to be rude i just really don't understand, but then i wouldn't cos different background.



How soon we forget the constant fear of being mistaken for a Dutchman that people lived with pre-2016.


----------



## two sheds (Nov 25, 2022)

Nou je zegt dat wel maar ...


----------



## bimble (Nov 25, 2022)

i really don't get 'i feel more recognised as English'.
Where is this joyous experience happening is it at airports or just day to day as you go about your English life in England.


----------



## The39thStep (Nov 25, 2022)

Has anyone ever had a phone call from someone who just talks and talks, probably for the fun of it,  and you've put the phone down walked into the kitchen, made a cup of tea and a sandwich, picked the phone up again and they are still in full flow oblivious?
Edit . Sorry wrong thread


----------



## Artaxerxes (Nov 25, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Has anyone ever had a phone call from someone who just talks and talks, probably for the fun of it,  and you've put the phone down walked into the kitchen, made a cup of tea and a sandwich, picked the phone up again and they are still in full flow oblivious?



No but I see people talking like that on the train and oh lord it tires me. How are you talking all the way to Zone 6? How?


----------



## ItStillWontWork (Nov 25, 2022)

bimble said:


> More recognised as English by who? Foreigners?
> I'm not actually trying to be rude i just really don't understand, but then i wouldn't cos different background.



It's ok, I don't think you're being rude. It's a good question, and I don't really know by who. My answer won't satisfy you if you are looking for a compelling economic or political argument, but I'm content intuiting my conclusions rather than deducing them with watertight syllogisms.

To elaborate; I could easily be considered a foreigner myself, and most likely am by some people. But then maybe that was part of my motivation for voting the way I did - the feeling that I don't fully belong anywhere, and that an increasing movement toward centralisation of power in a distant bureaucracy would make that feeling more pronounced. 

At heart, I'm parochial in my sensibilities, valuing family and community above any notion of supranational unity. But communities are rooted in place, and place is tied together by an overarching culture that ties localities together. By keeping our politics national, I sensed that we could foster particularities as a country that make us unique, rather than a bland, homogenised enclave of a corporatist structure I feel alienated from.

It's foolish, I know. But that's my analysis of my decision 6 years after making it.


----------



## bimble (Nov 25, 2022)

thanks for trying to explain.
 Your post reminds me of the day in the middle of the brexit wars when Theresa May said *“If you believe you are a citizen of the world, you are a citizen of nowhere" *and i can't really explain why but that scared the shit out of me. So yeah we are very different people.


----------



## ItStillWontWork (Nov 25, 2022)

bimble said:


> thanks for trying to explain.
> Your post reminds me of the day in the middle of the brexit wars when Theresa May said *“If you believe you are a citizen of the world, you are a citizen of nowhere" *and i can't really explain why but that scared the shit out of me. So yeah we are very different people.



Well I hope my response doesn't also scare you. I'm certain there're plenty of flaws in my position, but being frightening would be a particularly bad one.


----------



## bimble (Nov 25, 2022)

nope you are not scary.


----------



## ItStillWontWork (Nov 25, 2022)

bimble said:


> nope you are not scary.



Well that's a relief. Scary is a bad look


----------



## gosub (Nov 25, 2022)

Tanya1982 said:


> On the first morning, shortly after currency trading was suspended and tens of billions of pounds had to be injected to stop the economy crashing, Brexiters were already taking a break from crowing to demand remainers get behind it and start coming up with ideas as to how to make it work. It might've been laughable had it not been so glaringly ominous. It's demoralizing to realise that after the better part of a decade, they're still doing that, looking around in a daze, demanding the impossible while simultaneously taking people to task for not interpreting their own absence of ideas into guaranteed dream delivery.





bimble said:


> View attachment 352762
> how are they even trying to explain this now, is it still covid and russia?
> eta oh yeah, the thing now is to say that you do not agree with any of these gloomy predictions because we have had enough of experts etc.


I suppose you are going with 'they' coz the responses you are actually getting from leave voters on here don't help you. You forgot QE to QT and rhats a buggy IMO.  Though the global economic fallout from both covid and Russias unlawful population of UKraine are far from over

Also that graphic, odd collection  of countries


----------



## bimble (Nov 25, 2022)

gosub said:


> You forgot QE to QT and rhats a buggy IMO.


are you speaking dutch


----------



## Tanya1982 (Nov 25, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Has anyone ever had a phone call from someone who just talks and talks, probably for the fun of it,  and you've put the phone down walked into the kitchen, made a cup of tea and a sandwich, picked the phone up again and they are still in full flow oblivious?
> Edit . Sorry wrong thread


No. Btw - would you really do that to people who call you?


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 25, 2022)

Tanya1982 said:


> No. Btw - would you really do that to people who call you?


Yes


----------



## gosub (Nov 25, 2022)

bimble said:


> are you speaking dutch


Sorry biggy not buggy


----------



## Tanya1982 (Nov 25, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Has anyone ever had a phone call from someone who just talks and talks, probably for the fun of it,  and you've put the phone down walked into the kitchen, made a cup of tea and a sandwich, picked the phone up again and they are still in full flow oblivious?
> Edit . Sorry wrong thread


Having thought more on your example, maybe it's similar to the ignore button here. I've used that in one or two cases, and everything is so much more peaceful and enjoyable. If someone in your life is wasting your time as well as their own, do them and yourself a favour - just hang up, and enjoy your sandwich in peace. Life's short enough.


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## mojo pixy (Nov 25, 2022)

Yossarian said:


> How soon we forget the constant fear of being mistaken for a Dutchman that people lived with pre-2016.


tbf when I was living in France (Britanny anyway) most people I met thought I was Belgian from my accent. And when I lived in Dalston years later, the shopkeepers at the end of my road thought I was Turkish the first time I went into their shop. (Actually that happened quite a bit round there.)

Weirdly I've always kind of wished I wasn't British. When i was a kid i used to fantasise about being from somewhere else, Iceland, Italy, Russia all had their moment. And then for a while when I was a kid I actually nearly got to be a Kiwi for real, I'm still a bit pissed off that got wrecked by my stupid parents.

This is probably why I voted Remain, it makes sense now.


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## JimW (Nov 25, 2022)

Get some interesting guesses here, Chinese people often say Russian or German and Americans think I'm an Aussie fairly frequently as my accent isn't Dick Van Dyke or BBC I suspect.


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## Tanya1982 (Nov 25, 2022)

mojo pixy said:


> tbf when I was living in France (Britanny anyway) most people I met thought I was Belgian from my accent. And when I lived in Dalston years later, the shopkeepers at the end of my road thought I was Turkish the first time I went into their shop. (Actually that happened quite a bit round there.)
> 
> Weirdly I've always kind of wished I wasn't British. When i was a kid i used to fantasise about being from somewhere else, Iceland, Italy, Russia all had their moment. And then for a while when I was a kid I actually nearly got to be a Kiwi for real, I'm still a bit pissed off that got wrecked by my stupid parents.
> 
> This is probably why I voted Remain, it makes sense now.


How deeply upsetting all that must've been. I do understand the trauma - people have asked if I'm various things over the years, and in France particularly for some reason, I've often been spoken to by the natives in a way that makes clear they have initially taken me for one of their own - the temerity.


----------



## Boris Sprinkler (Nov 25, 2022)

ItStillWontWork said:


> It's ok, I don't think you're being rude. It's a good question, and I don't really know by who. My answer won't satisfy you if you are looking for a compelling economic or political argument, but I'm content intuiting my conclusions rather than deducing them with watertight syllogisms.
> 
> To elaborate; I could easily be considered a foreigner myself, and most likely am by some people. But then maybe that was part of my motivation for voting the way I did - the feeling that I don't fully belong anywhere, and that an increasing movement toward centralisation of power in a distant bureaucracy would make that feeling more pronounced.
> 
> ...



You’re already a serf giving your power away to an elite you didn’t vote for you berk.  
Your answer doesn’t make me respect your argument more. It makes me feel sad how fucking stupid people are when they have every opportunity to read about things and better their position. But when all your opinions are given to you by social media, why bother eh.


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## ItStillWontWork (Nov 25, 2022)

Boris Sprinkler said:


> You’re already a serf giving your power away to an elite you didn’t vote for you berk.
> Your answer doesn’t make me respect your argument more. It makes me feel sad how fucking stupid people are when they have every opportunity to read about things and better their position. But when all your opinions are given to you by social media, why bother eh.



Ok then


----------



## The39thStep (Nov 25, 2022)

Tanya1982 said:


> No. Btw - would you really do that to people who call you?


In my sisters case ,who I always imagine is sitting by the phone with a pack of fags and half a bottle of brandy having no doubt exhausted friends on Facebook, yes .


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 25, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> In my sisters case ,who I always imagine is sitting by the phone with a pack of fags and half a bottle of brandy having no doubt exhausted friends on Facebook, yes .


Otherwise you'd be like sybil out of faulty towers, always spending hours on the phone going 'I know' etc


----------



## Serge Forward (Nov 26, 2022)

ItStillWontWork said:


> I feel more recognised as English than I did before. Is there anything wrong with that?


That's odd because I recognise you as a weirdo.


----------



## Raheem (Nov 26, 2022)

ItStillWontWork said:


> I feel more recognised as English than I did before. Is there anything wrong with that?


Think right and wrong is probably not the main issue.


----------



## two sheds (Nov 26, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> Otherwise you'd be like sybil out of faulty towers, always spending hours on the phone going 'I know' etc


Yes I know


----------



## MysteryGuest (Nov 26, 2022)

Serge Forward said:


> That's odd because I recognise you as a weirdo.


True, but the thing about this place is that there isn't anybody on here who isn't a weirdo...


----------



## Smangus (Nov 26, 2022)

MysteryGuest said:


> True, but the thing about this place is that there isn't anybody on here who isn't a weirdo...


Fuck, I've been outed!


----------



## MysteryGuest (Nov 26, 2022)

Smangus said:


> Fuck, I've been outed!



Well here we all are then, all the lads together (with Fr Todd Unctuous' bare b.o.t.t.y right in front of the camera there!)


----------



## bimble (Nov 26, 2022)

a football joke that i understand!


----------



## mojo pixy (Nov 26, 2022)

MysteryGuest said:


> True, but the thing about this place is that there isn't anybody on here who isn't a weirdo...


Fuck off, I'm completely normal.


----------



## ska invita (Nov 26, 2022)

For many Brexit has been a cathartic experience for English identity

 There is a credible case to say that 'English Independence' sentiment, as there is Scottish and Welsh and Irish independence sentiment, contributed significantly to the spirit of the vote (Scotland and Ireland majority voted remain), and English traditional tropes were wheeled out to stir that sentiment.

At its best it was a healthy expression of localist democratic rights - sovereignty - at its worst it was open xenophobia - shouting We Voted Leave Now Leave at people at bus stops.

Theres a lot been said already about English identity recently, and how it doesn't get to express itself coherently, mainly because England dominates the Union. The Union isn't really a union at all, its English dominance over the other three. Independence sentiment is based on repression, so hard to feel that within the union. Within the EU on the other hand...

On a symbolic cultural level Brexit put English (not Scottish, not Welsh, not Irish) cultural signifiers up against the Other of 'Europe' and won. So the feeling that English things are more English now is not surprising.


Order is restored, England runs Britain again, subservient to no one, in parliamentary politics democratic choice has been narrowed again, the establishment firmly in the driving seat, feels familiar and traditional


----------



## bimble (Nov 26, 2022)

Aside from the identity stuff, it's interesting to just take what people say about Sovereignty on face value;
Why did so many English feel that it would be an obvious plus for our own politicians to have full power over everything that goes on in the country without any meddling foreigners getting involved in our legislation. Which is a feeling that our neighbours in Europe do not share obvs. Why not. Do we have more trust in our politicians and electoral system than they do it can't be but apparently so.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 26, 2022)

ItStillWontWork said:


> I think one of the reasons Remain lost because they mistakenly believed Brexit was about economics. It wasn't. it was about sovereignty, identity, and representation.
> 
> I am not French or German or Italian or whatever. I have no problem with Europeans, but I don't want to be one. I am English, and want politics to be carried out as close to home as possible. Looking back on it, that is ultimately why I voted Brexit.



I’m not convinced by either argument.

Remain lost, fundamentally, because it was the campaign for the retention of the status quo. It offered no coherent reform agenda or any vision for a better future. Given it was the campaign of ALL mainstream political parties, the CBI, the Institute of Directors and those with high levels of cultural and economic capital this isn’t a surprise.

Second, the leave vote did have, in my view, a very explicit economic element. Part of the attraction of dumping the EU wasn’t just the fact that it’s undemocratic and set on a federal structure. At base, the EU is an economic idea and project after all. It renders rebuilding a national economy impossible. It blocks state aid and greater state ownership and it increasingly bullies and imposed austerity on countries who refused or simply couldn’t sign up to its neo-liberal economic orthodoxy.


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## mojo pixy (Nov 26, 2022)

bimble said:


> Why did so many English feel that it would be an obvious plus for our own politicians to have full power over everything that goes on in the country without any meddling foreigners getting involved in our legislation.


Weirdly, many of these people no doubt feel that the 'glorious revolution' of 1688 was a good thing.


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## bimble (Nov 26, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> At base, the EU is an economic idea and project after all. It renders rebuilding a national economy impossible. It blocks state aid and greater state ownership and it increasingly bullies and imposed austerity on countries who refused or simply couldn’t sign up to its neo-liberal economic orthodoxy.


How do you explain that the rich and not at all bullied UK is the one who wanted to leave, whist the actual Greeks that people on here are always using as an example of the unacceptable face of the EU, were were strongly 'remain' even when at the height of being bullied and austeritied. Its obviously a very niche reason for the leave vote, yours, we know that but i think maybe you forget sometimes.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 26, 2022)

bimble said:


> Aside from the identity stuff, it's interesting to just take what people say about Sovereignty on face value;
> Why did so many English feel that it would be an obvious plus for our own politicians to have full power over everything that goes on in the country without any meddling foreigners getting involved in our legislation. Which is a feeling that our neighbours in Europe do not share obvs. Why not. Do we have more trust in our politicians and electoral system than they do it can't be but apparently so.



If you read Tony Benn on this stuff Bimble you’ll see a line of argument that reframed this question in a very different manner to how you’ve posed it.

Benn said ‘The Parliamentary democracy we have developed and established in Britain is based, not upon the sovereignty of Parliament, but _upon the sovereignty of the People,_ who, by exercising their vote lend their sovereign powers to Members of Parliament, to use on their behalf, for the duration of a single Parliament only — Powers that must be returned intact to the electorate to whom they belong, to lend again to the Members of Parliament they elect in each subsequent general election.’

You can trace this specifically English idea back through the centuries back to The Levellers of 1646 and through the subsequent development of the earliest non-conformist and working class movements.


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## bimble (Nov 26, 2022)

Seriously? So you think we have a more democratic system than other European countries or are you just saying we the British are the ones who bestowed the blessings of democracy upon the world so thats why we put more store in it than others do,


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## Smokeandsteam (Nov 26, 2022)

bimble said:


> How do you explain that the rich and not at all bullied UK is the one who wanted to leave, whist the actual Greeks that people on here are always using as an example of the unacceptable face of the EU, were were strongly 'remain' even when at the height of being bullied and austeritied. Its obviously a very niche reason for the leave vote, yours, we know that but i think maybe you forget sometimes.



Support for anti-EU parties is increasing across Europe on the left and right:









						Support for Eurosceptic parties doubles in two decades across EU
					

Research reveals one in three voters now back parties that are critical of or hostile to the bloc




					www.theguardian.com


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## mojo pixy (Nov 26, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> You can trace *this specifically English idea* back through the centuries back to The Levellers of 1646 and through the subsequent development of the earliest non-conformist and working class movements.


Yes, the French (to take just one example from our immediate neighbourhood) had a revolution (that was obvs nothing to do with the people), have a parliament of two elected chambers (that are obvs nothing to do with the people), have a written constitution (which anyone can read), and even elect their head of state (unlike the fantastically democratic UK where ours is born into it).

What a bastion of fairness and accountability we are, Mr. Benn


----------



## Boris Sprinkler (Nov 26, 2022)

So now you have self governance (    ) and it's really clear that the wankers that govern you are as much on the take as the people they told you are on the take, the question is, what have you done about it?  Now it's patently obvious you are getting mugged off by fascists.


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## Boris Sprinkler (Nov 26, 2022)

The best I can offer is voting for matt hancock to have to do another bush tucker challenge.


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## Smokeandsteam (Nov 26, 2022)

bimble said:


> Seriously? So you think we have a more democratic system than other European countries or are you just saying we the British are the ones who bestowed the blessings of democracy upon the world so thats why we put more store in it than others do,



No, Bimble. I’m not arguing that the Levellers and the formative working class of England developed an idea of sovereignty to show Johnny Foreigner how it’s done. 

Christ, why do I waste my time on here….


----------



## Karl Masks (Nov 26, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Support for anti-EU parties is increasing across Europe on the left and right:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Just look at the kinds of politician representing that position though


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 26, 2022)

mojo pixy said:


> Yes, the French (to take just one example from our immediate neighbourhood) had a revolution (that was obvs nothing to do with the people), have a parliament of two elected chambers (that are obvs nothing to do with the people), have a written constitution (which anyone can read), and even elect their head of state (unlike the fantastically democratic UK where ours is born into it).
> 
> What a bastion of fairness and accountability we are, Mr. Benn



I was replying to Bimble’s post #12932

Bimble wasn’t arguing that French democracy was a better idea and I wasnt challenging it.

Don’t let that stop you though


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 26, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> Just look at the kinds of politician representing that position though



The chart shows support for left and right anti-EU parties rising sharply. As the research shows their rise is a symptom, the causes of the symptoms is the EU itself.


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## Louis MacNeice (Nov 26, 2022)

bimble said:


> Aside from the identity stuff, it's interesting to just take what people say about Sovereignty on face value;
> Why did so many English feel that it would be an obvious plus for our own politicians to have full power over everything that goes on in the country without any meddling foreigners getting involved in our legislation. Which is a feeling that our neighbours in Europe do not share obvs. Why not. Do we have more trust in our politicians than they do it can't be.


It doesn't  have to have anything to do with the levels of trust or even appreciations of competence. Of course the inverse position is not necessarily true of remainers; ie. they don't have to believe that all other European politicians are more trust worthy/competent than their UK counterparts.

Perhaps people felt that their Westminster MPs were more democratically accountable and 'closer' to them than their MEPs and the unelected/appointed EU policy makers.

I think the democratic point is pretty easy to argue (albeit with all the caveats and limitations that go with our parliamentary system). The notion of 'closeness' is of course an illusion, but it is at least explicable. The bottom line being that people's voting decisions are more complicated, diverse and nuanced than this thread sometimes  allows for.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


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## mojo pixy (Nov 26, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I was replying to Bimble’s post #12932
> 
> Bimble wasn’t arguing that French democracy was a better idea and I wasnt challenging it.
> 
> Don’t let stop you though


Yeah I was arguing with Tony Benn really, but he's dead and you're not, and I strongly dispute the idea that there's something uniquely valuable or important about our version of parliamentary democracy. Especially when examining what it does, what it's done, and what it's likely to do.


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## MrSki (Nov 26, 2022)

MysteryGuest said:


> about this place is that there isn't abody on here who isn't a weirdo...


I was at this last weekend a felt that I fitted right in.


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## Serge Forward (Nov 26, 2022)

MysteryGuest said:


> True, but the thing about this place is that there isn't anybody on here who isn't a weirdo...


----------



## bimble (Nov 26, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> No, Bimble. I’m not arguing that the Levellers and the formative working class of England developed an idea of sovereignty to show Johnny Foreigner how it’s done.
> 
> Christ, why do I waste my time on here….


But what were you saying then?
The history lesson from tony benn and you is fine but what is the relevance of it to why we just left whilst the democracies next door don't seem much interested in reclaiming their sovereignty in this way.

Are you saying we value our national democratic system more than say the french do ?
If not that then what was the point of your history lesson.


----------



## Serge Forward (Nov 26, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> If you read Tony Benn on this stuff Bimble you’ll see a line of argument that reframed this question in a very different manner to how you’ve posed it.
> 
> Benn said ‘The Parliamentary democracy we have developed and established in Britain is based, not upon the sovereignty of Parliament, but _upon the sovereignty of the People,_ who, by exercising their vote lend their sovereign powers to Members of Parliament, to use on their behalf, for the duration of a single Parliament only — Powers that must be returned intact to the electorate to whom they belong, to lend again to the Members of Parliament they elect in each subsequent general election.’
> 
> You can trace this specifically English idea back through the centuries back to The Levellers of 1646 and through the subsequent development of the earliest non-conformist and working class movements.


The Levellers is a bit of a leap. You could say the same of the Muntzerites and the German peasant army of the 1520s... or not


----------



## bimble (Nov 26, 2022)

It's a bit bonkers anyway, to claim that the idea that power is lent to the politicians by voting then given to the next one at an election is a "specifically English idea" . Sorry Tony. Athens is a bit older than 1646 isn't it.
And we only got to one man one vote about a hundred years ago, took bloody ages. Dunno if you can really say the hundreds of years when only that 5% of the population who were rich enough to be given a vote were a prize won by working class movements.


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## Louis MacNeice (Nov 26, 2022)

bimble said:


> But what were you saying then?
> The history lesson from tony benn and you is fine but what is the relevance of it to why we just left whilst the democracies next door don't seem much interested in reclaiming their sovereignty in this way.
> 
> Are you saying we value our national democratic system more than say the french do ?
> If not that then what was the point of your history lesson.


Can't you think of any other historical and structural reasons why many French people are more committed to the EU than their English and Welsh counterparts?

Just off the top of my head how about their country's experience of occupation as well as their founding and continuing central role in the EU? 

The point I am making is that French people may have very different reasons for being pro EU, compared to the democratic deficit arguments of some UK antis.

Cheers  - Louis MacNeice


----------



## B.I.G (Nov 26, 2022)

bimble said:


> It's a bit bonkers anyway, to claim that the idea that power is lent to the politicians by voting then given to the next one at an election is a "specifically English idea" . Sorry Tony. Its a bit older than 1646 isn't it that idea.



Other parliaments operate within a written constitution. Its a definite idea that English parliaments cannot bind another.

Its possible/probable that this is what he was thinking about.


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## Serge Forward (Nov 26, 2022)

Aye, Mr Benn was always a bit rosy about the merits of the British parliament


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## bimble (Nov 26, 2022)

Louis MacNeice said:


> Can't you think of any other historical and structural reasons why many French people are more committed to the EU than their English and Welsh counterparts?
> 
> Just off the top of my head how about their country's experience of occupation as well as their founding and continuing central role in the EU?
> 
> ...


Absolutely, agree that experiences and national memories / mythologising of the war are a major factor. I think its true with me as well, my remoaner-ness has a lot to do with that. 
The only place that has not been invaded for hundreds and hundreds of years, whilsy busily invading everyone else, being the one to cherish 'sovereignty' so highly is just an interesting thing.


----------



## Humberto (Nov 26, 2022)

bimble said:


> It's a bit bonkers anyway, to claim that the idea that power is lent to the politicians by voting then given to the next one at an election is a "specifically English idea" . Sorry Tony. Athens is a bit older than 1646 isn't it.
> And *we only got to one man one vote about a hundred years ago, took bloody ages*. Dunno if you can really say the hundreds of years when only that 5% of the population who were rich enough to be given a vote were a prize won by working class movements.


As it stands that is effectively being limited now with ID now being required to vote.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 26, 2022)

bimble said:


> Are you saying we value our national democratic system more than say the french do ?
> If not that then what was the point of your history lesson.



2 quick points:

1. The French aren’t quite the fans of their own democratic system or the EU in the way they once might have been, the solid and growing vote for the Front National and Le Pen’s rise (another symptom rather than cause) indicates a deep dissatisfaction with both. 
2. The point of the ‘history lesson’ was to respond to the query, made by you, in #12,933 about English notions of sovereignty.


----------



## Boris Sprinkler (Nov 26, 2022)

bimble said:


> Absolutely, agree that experiences and national memories / mythologising of the war are a major factor. I think its true with me as well, my remoaner-ness has a lot to do with that.
> The only place that has not been invaded for hundreds and hundreds of years, whilsy busily invading everyone else, being the one to cherish 'sovereignty' so highly is just an interesting thing.


When call the midwife is among the most popular TV programs. Fake history porn does have it's fair share of blame. 
Turns out the kids on why don't you? weren't lying.


----------



## bimble (Nov 26, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> The point of the ‘history lesson’ was to respond to the query, made by you, in #12,933 about English notions of sovereignty.


You suggesting that we value our sovereignty more because parliamentary democracy is "a specifically English idea" isn't a response that i was expecting but ok.


----------



## The39thStep (Nov 26, 2022)

Humberto said:


> As it stands that is effectively being limited now with ID now being required to vote.


It’s required here in Portugal as well . Might be the case in other EU states , I don’t know .


----------



## bimble (Nov 26, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> The French aren’t quite the fans of their own democratic system or the EU in the way they once might have been, the solid and growing vote for the Front National and Le Pen’s rise (another symptom rather than cause) indicates a deep dissatisfaction with both.


Why did Le Pen drop the idea of frexit as one of her big plans though, if the french are so keen? She dropped it because she reckons that the people don't want it,  i thought.


----------



## Humberto (Nov 26, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> It’s required here in Portugal as well . Might be the case in other EU states , I don’t know .


Unsurprisingly the implementation of it here appears to favour Tory voting demographics.


----------



## The39thStep (Nov 26, 2022)

Humberto said:


> Unsurprisingly the implementation of it here appears to favour Tory voting demographics.


I think the Tories are going to need a lot of favours tbh


----------



## The39thStep (Nov 26, 2022)

bimble said:


> Why did Le Pen drop the idea of frexit as one of her big plans though, if the french are so keen? She dropped it because she reckons that the people don't want it,  i thought.


Both Le Pen and Melechon had a position which pretty much said that  if elected they would pass legislation that would bring them into conflict with the EU and then let the people decide .


----------



## bimble (Nov 26, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Both Le Pen and Melechon had a position which pretty much said that  if elected they would pass legislation that would bring them into conflict with the EU and then let the people decide .


ye but she used to have frexit as one of her key policies and then she dropped it, to try to appeal to more voters, cos it wasn't very popular


----------



## The39thStep (Nov 26, 2022)

bimble said:


> ye but she used to have frexit as one of her key policies and then she dropped it, to try to appeal to more voters, cos it wasn't very popular


I think that the success of the ‘two fingers to the EU but we will take the money ‘populist far right in government in Hungary, Poland , Italy and now Sweden has created a position whereby Le Pen , the AFD , VOX and other larger far right groups think it is possible to either have an EU which fits their political objectives or an EU that accommodates them .


----------



## Ax^ (Nov 26, 2022)

well at least brexit cut down on immigration

no wait...


----------



## bimble (Nov 26, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Le Pen , the AFD , VOX and other larger far right groups think it is possible to either have an EU which fits their political objectives or an EU that accommodates them .


but we didn't think so, despite all the special arrangements and opt outs we had to leave.


----------



## teqniq (Nov 26, 2022)

This is pretty nuts:









						UK Pork Producer Flies in Filipino Butchers to Replace Lost EU Workers
					

(Bloomberg) -- One of the UK’s biggest pork producers has spent £4 million ($4.8 million) hiring butchers from the Philippines, after a staffing crisis threatened to hamper production. Most Read from BloombergBinance’s Zhao Flags Possible $1 Billion for Distressed AssetsMalaysia PM Anwar Plans...




					uk.news.yahoo.com


----------



## The39thStep (Nov 26, 2022)

teqniq said:


> This is pretty nuts:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Absolutely, they have had five years to develop a recruitment and retention programme .


----------



## brogdale (Nov 26, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Absolutely, they have had five years to develop a recruitment and retention programme .


Looks like they have, tbh; they've amassed a ready trained, minimum wage workforce of predominantly younger, (fitter?), workers who will likely be less organised/more compliant and without family responsibilities. As close to transnational off-shoring as is feasible with perishable goods.


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## Karl Masks (Nov 26, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> The chart shows support for left and right anti-EU parties rising sharply. As the research shows their rise is a symptom, the causes of the symptoms is the EU itself.


far left parties probably represent a tiny portion of any electorate. Whereas the far right have people in power, including here, right now. Orban, for example is in charge of Hungary: far right. 

So are the reasons for the euroscepticism, which may well be on the rise, wholesome? or are they, as the article seems to suggest, based on dodgy shit. Like immigration. Something the capitalist class has no answer to when it exploits international labour. Something we're doing right now, despite leaving the EU.

I don't know how you're claiming this vindicates your position and you have still not posted an example of Brexit providing any benefits at all.


----------



## mojo pixy (Nov 26, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> you have still not posted an example of Brexit providing any benefits at all.


Thing is, there aren't any - not unless you fundamentally, ideologically think _the UK not being in the EU_ is all by itself a benefit, and some people genuinely do. But that's all there is to it, there are literally zero other benefits. I don't even think anyone except Jacob Rees-Mogg is pretending otherwise any more.


----------



## A380 (Nov 26, 2022)

ItStillWontWork said:


> I think one of the reasons Remain lost because they mistakenly believed Brexit was about economics. It wasn't. it was about sovereignty, identity, and representation.
> 
> I am not French or German or Italian or whatever. I have no problem with Europeans, but I don't want to be one. I am English, and want politics to be carried out as close to home as possible. Looking back on it, that is ultimately why I voted Brexit.


Sorry,  You are a European if you live in England, that's just geography...


----------



## Ax^ (Nov 26, 2022)

ItStillWontWork said:


> I think one of the reasons Remain lost because they mistakenly believed Brexit was about economics. It wasn't. it was about sovereignty, identity, and representation.
> 
> I am not French or German or Italian or whatever. I have no problem with Europeans, but I don't want to be one. I am English, and want politics to be carried out as close to home as possible. Looking back on it, that is ultimately why I voted Brexit.



can we have the 6 counties back then , you can bring the DUP and orangemen home


----------



## A380 (Nov 26, 2022)

Direct legacy of the Levellers apparently:


----------



## A380 (Nov 26, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> can we have the 6 counties back then , you can bring the DUP and orangemen home


DUP and orangemen are Irish. That's kind of the point. Besides why would we want them in England or Wales?


----------



## brogdale (Nov 26, 2022)

mojo pixy said:


> Thing is, there aren't any - not unless you fundamentally, ideologically think _the UK not being in the EU_ is all by itself a benefit, and some people genuinely do. But that's all there is to it, there are literally zero other benefits. I don't even think anyone except Jacob Rees-Mogg is pretending otherwise any more.


Just because there's nothing for our class doesn't mean that the changed trading arrangements benefit no-one; there's a reason why the  right have organised against UK membership of the bloc since 1961.


----------



## Ax^ (Nov 26, 2022)

A380 said:


> DUP and orangemen are Irish. That's kind of the point. Besides why would we want them in England or Wales?



ask them if they are Irish


----------



## A380 (Nov 26, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> ask them if they are Irish


But that would be like asking ItStillWontWork  if they are European...


----------



## ItStillWontWork (Nov 26, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> can we have the 6 counties back then



Yes



> you can bring the DUP and orangemen home



No thanks


----------



## The39thStep (Nov 26, 2022)

brogdale said:


> Looks like they have, tbh; they've amassed a ready trained, minimum wage workforce of predominantly younger, (fitter?), workers who will likely be less organised/more compliant and without family responsibilities. As close to transnational off-shoring as is feasible with perishable goods.


It’s almost as if they are replicating an EU type workforce


----------



## brogdale (Nov 26, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> It’s almost as if they are replicating an EU type workforce


_Same as it ever was._


----------



## The39thStep (Nov 26, 2022)

A380 said:


> Direct legacy of the Levellers apparently:
> 
> View attachment 352972


Never liked that sort of traveller type British folk scene tbh


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Nov 26, 2022)

mojo pixy said:


> there are literally zero other benefits. I don't even think anyone except Jacob Rees-Mogg is pretending otherwise any more



dunno - the hedge funds seem to have done well out of it, and didn't brexit mean that some EU laws about tax avoidance didn't come in to effect in the UK?



The39thStep said:


> It’s almost as if they are replicating an EU type workforce



but without the same rights that EU nationals had before brexit?

how do visas like this work?  is it more like a 'guest worker' thing where if you fall out with employer, or employer decides you're redundant, then off you fuck?  that would probably appeal to employers...


----------



## brogdale (Nov 26, 2022)

Puddy_Tat said:


> but without the same rights that EU nationals had before brexit?
> 
> how do visas like this work?  is it more like a 'guest worker' thing where if you fall out with employer, or employer decides you're redundant, then off you fuck?  that would probably appeal to employers...


Yes, that is a benefit to capital compared with the EU FoM migrant workforce. Less secure = generally more compliant and with lower expectations, less family 'baggage' and limited ability to organise. Win, win, win for the employers


----------



## bimble (Nov 26, 2022)

It’s not that much like replicating EU free movement really, current system is more similar to the Saudi workforce in many ways.


----------



## bimble (Nov 26, 2022)

That pork factory which says 65% of their butchers used to be from ‘central Europe’, where are those butchers now? I mean they must be choosing to not come here on temporary visas so maybe they’re butchering in Germany or France instead idk whilst we get people in from further away who are willing to put up with these crappier conditions that the UK now offers.


----------



## The39thStep (Nov 26, 2022)

Puddy_Tat said:


> dunno - the hedge funds seem to have done well out of it, and didn't brexit mean that some EU laws about tax avoidance didn't come in to effect in the UK?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Be interesting to find out


----------



## The39thStep (Nov 26, 2022)

bimble said:


> That pork factory which says 65% of their butchers used to be from ‘central Europe’, where are those butchers now? I mean they must be choosing to not come here on temporary visas so maybe they’re butchering in Germany or France instead idk whilst we get people in from further away who are willing to put up with these crappier conditions that the UK now offers.


I'll leave it to you to track down the missing Central European butchers


----------



## Yossarian (Nov 26, 2022)

Puddy_Tat said:


> how do visas like this work?  is it more like a 'guest worker' thing where if you fall out with employer, or employer decides you're redundant, then off you fuck?  that would probably appeal to employers...



Not sure if it is the visa involved in this particular case, but the Seasonal Worker immigration rules were changed a year ago to include "specified pork butchery work."

According to the Seasonal Worker rules, visa holders can come to the UK for a limited time - 6 months for fruit-pickers etc, a couple of months for poultry workers, it doesn't say how long for pork butchers. The rules state:

_You cannot:_

_take a permanent job_
_work in a second job or a job that isn’t described in your certificate of sponsorship_
_get public funds_
_bring family members with you_


----------



## bimble (Nov 26, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> I'll leave it to you to track down the missing Central European butchers


Well, they are choosing to work somewhere with less shit working conditions is the obvious thing. So perhaps they are in Portugal. 
whilst we get to eat delicious British bacon chopped up by people from the Philippines who haven’t seen their families for months. Winning.


----------



## The39thStep (Nov 26, 2022)

A little  more detail in this Times article ( not detail about the visas, unfortunately)



			Welcome to nginx!
		


This advert is saying just under £28k for Philippine butchers so Cranswick are doing well getting them for £14k









						United Kingdom is looking for 8 Butchers
					

United Kingdom is an island country located off the northwestern coast of mainland Europe. The United Kingdom comprises the whole of the island of Great Britain-which contains England, Wales, and Scotland-as well as the northern portion of the island of Ireland. The name Britain is sometimes...




					announcement.ph


----------



## bimble (Nov 26, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> A little  more detail in this Times article ( not detail about the visas, unfortunately)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


the 10-12 k is on top isn't it, that's their flights visas and accomodation for their brief stays.


----------



## The39thStep (Nov 26, 2022)

bimble said:


> Well, they are choosing to work somewhere with less shit working conditions is the obvious thing. So perhaps they are in Portugal.
> whilst we get to eat delicious British bacon chopped up by people from the Philippines who haven’t seen their families for months. Winning.


Portugal has the same shit jobs tbh . Refuse collection ( mainly done at night ) is east Europeans and farm labourers are being brought in both legally and illegally from the Indian sub continent , hotels staff etc very often African or Brazilian .


----------



## brogdale (Nov 26, 2022)

Same shit jobs in same shit economies...in or outside of the supra state; it's almost like there's something else that's amiss?


----------



## bimble (Nov 26, 2022)

Point was just that if i was a skilled butcher from say Slovakia, why would i even consider coming to the UK now, when there's a load of other countries where i could bring my kids with me, maybe build a life. Those people have left to go elsewhere and their labour is being replaced by people in temporary accommodation on short lonely contract visas. That's all that's changed.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 26, 2022)

A380 said:


> DUP and orangemen are Irish. That's kind of the point. Besides why would we want them in England or Wales?


But you wouldn't mind them in scotland


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 26, 2022)

ItStillWontWork said:


> I am not French or German or Italian or whatever. I have no problem with Europeans, but I don't want to be one. I am English


England is in Europe. You are a European.


----------



## A380 (Nov 26, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> But you wouldn't mind them in scotland


I wouldn't dream of speaking on behalf of Scotland ...


----------



## A380 (Nov 26, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> England is in Europe. You are a European.


I had a map and everything when I made this point earlier...


----------



## bimble (Nov 26, 2022)

I definitely feel less English now than i did before 2016. Belonging to imaginary communities is a funny thing.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Nov 26, 2022)

bimble said:


> I definitely feel less English now than i did before 2016. Belonging to imaginary communities is a funny thing.



I used to be fine calling myself British, I wasn't happy or proud of it, but I could pretend I wasn't anything to do with the red cross on white racism brigade but since 2016 they have become ever more the same thing.

So that sucks. Hoping to change nationality at some point.


----------



## bimble (Nov 26, 2022)

Artaxerxes said:


> Hoping to change nationality at some point.


yep have heard that a lot lately. if i ever do online dating again which i won't,  i'll be sure to put 'has EU passport' in my sales pitch.


----------



## editor (Nov 29, 2022)




----------



## Duncan2 (Nov 29, 2022)

Yep fruit rotting in the fields -fuck that -time for a grown-up conversation about immigration i say.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 29, 2022)

Duncan2 said:


> Yep fruit rotting in the fields -fuck that -time for a grown-up conversation about immigration i say.


Flip side; if you can't pay enough to attract labour, you ain't got a business.


----------



## Tanya1982 (Nov 29, 2022)

brogdale said:


> Flip side; if you can't pay enough to attract labour, you ain't got a business.


Yes, sadly. Happens in every industry. It's tragic, but it's true. If you rely on private profit/loss, you have to accept that sometimes it'll be a loss, and if the staff wages can't be cut to fit then you don't have a business, you have a liability. I sympathize on a personal level.


----------



## _Russ_ (Nov 29, 2022)

Double post


----------



## _Russ_ (Nov 29, 2022)

Artaxerxes said:


> I used to be fine calling myself British, I wasn't happy or proud of it, but I could pretend I wasn't anything to do with the red cross on white racism brigade but since 2016 they have become ever more the same thing.
> 
> So that sucks. Hoping to change nationality at some point.


Bye


----------



## Tanya1982 (Nov 29, 2022)

Artaxerxes said:


> I used to be fine calling myself British, I wasn't happy or proud of it, but I could pretend I wasn't anything to do with the red cross on white racism brigade but since 2016 they have become ever more the same thing.
> 
> So that sucks. Hoping to change nationality at some point.


I looked at some options. After the vote, my grandmother was still alive so I couldn't have left. My son is settled at school, so realistically until that's done I can't leave. I would like to. I see no long term future for myself in Britain, and that's a recent development, last five or six years. The 'citizens of nowhere' speech was terrifying stuff. I was appalled and stunned by it. I don't feel invested in things now. Probably since then actually.


----------



## Maltin (Nov 29, 2022)

brogdale said:


> Flip side; if you can't pay enough to attract labour, you ain't got a business.


They didn’t struggle so much before Brexit. If you can’t pay enough once your government cuts off the supply of labour and thereby increases the cost, you ain’t got a business may be more accurate. See also increases in fuel costs since the reduction in supply recently.


----------



## Maltin (Nov 29, 2022)

Also, the flip side is if there is no business, there are no jobs.


----------



## Raheem (Nov 30, 2022)

Maltin said:


> Also, the flip side is if there is no business, there are no jobs.


What about cyber?


----------



## MrSki (Nov 30, 2022)

Raheem said:


> What about cyber?


Or being a ballerina?


----------



## Mezzer (Dec 1, 2022)

In The Times, no less:  Brexit adds £200 to food bills



			Welcome to nginx!


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 1, 2022)

Maltin said:


> They didn’t struggle so much before Brexit. If you can’t pay enough once your government cuts off the supply of labour and thereby increases the cost, you ain’t got a business may be more accurate. See also increases in fuel costs since the reduction in supply recently.



Cuts off the supply of labour?


----------



## Karl Masks (Dec 1, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Cuts off the supply of labour?


Labour from outside the UK, presumably. People don't want to work here because it's a shithole and people that aren't being allowed.


----------



## Karl Masks (Dec 1, 2022)

Mezzer said:


> In The Times, no less:  Brexit adds £200 to food bills
> 
> 
> 
> Welcome to nginx!


To say nothing of the quality of food. Veg is now much closer to expiry when bought, I find, as well as being dearer.


----------



## Karl Masks (Dec 1, 2022)

editor said:


>



And those rivers and coasts will be polluted by BRITISH excrement. Just as foretold in the Magna Carta. Long live the King, and his shit.


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 1, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> Labour from outside the UK, presumably. People don't want to work here because it's a shithole and people that aren't being allowed.


How does that increase the costs?


----------



## brogdale (Dec 1, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> How does that increase the costs?


Significantly the attached Times piece doesn't appear to mention labour costs at all; it seems to focus on the impact of non-tariff barriers being "passed on to consumers".


----------



## Karl Masks (Dec 1, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> How does that increase the costs?


Basic supply and demand theory I'd assume. With a smaller pool of labour to choose from, the price of that labour can increase. Isn't that why people complain about foreign labour undercutting local wages?


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 1, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> To say nothing of the quality of food. Veg is now much closer to expiry when bought, I find, as well as being dearer.



Bought tomatoes in online shop last month, went mouldy within three days.

Sainsbury's is particularly bad


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 1, 2022)

brogdale said:


> Significantly the attached Times piece doesn't appear to mention labour costs at all; it seems to focus on the impact of non-tariff barriers being "passed on to consumers".


sorry brogdale which Times piece?


----------



## Serge Forward (Dec 1, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> Basic supply and demand theory I'd assume. With a smaller pool of labour to choose from, the price of that labour can increase. Isn't that why people complain about foreign labour undercutting local wages?


Hmm... wages haven't really gone up though.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 1, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> sorry brogdale which Times piece?


My bad; #13017


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 1, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> Basic supply and demand theory I'd assume. With a smaller pool of labour to choose from, the price of that labour can increase. Isn't that why people complain about foreign labour undercutting local wages?


you mean bosses getting away with paying some workers less than others.


----------



## Maltin (Dec 1, 2022)

Serge Forward said:


> Hmm... wages haven't really gone up though.


Average wages have gone up 5.4%. Alas, inflation is much higher so there has been a fall in “real terms” but wages have gone up quite a bit.






						Average weekly earnings in Great Britain - Office for National Statistics
					

Estimates of growth in earnings for employees before tax and other deductions from pay.



					www.ons.gov.uk


----------



## Serge Forward (Dec 1, 2022)

I keep hearing that but I don't see the day to day evidence. Must be that I don't know anyone who's had a pay rise anywhere near 5%. And yes, taking in inflation, etc, it's pay cuts all round.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 1, 2022)

Serge Forward said:


> I keep hearing that but I don't see the day to day evidence. Must be that I don't know anyone who's had a parish anywhere near 5%. And yes, taking in inflation, etc, it's pay cuts all round.


as you say









						Real wages effectively flatlined in lost decade of growth - but there's a glimmer of light
					

Metals are up by 77% since COVID-19 struck, crude oil prices are up 200% since COVID, and food prices have increased by 40% - which in any given period would be considered very high.




					news.sky.com


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 1, 2022)

I don’t subscribe to the theory that businesses have a right to cheap labour or that it’s the job of the government to source that cheap labour for them . In Mick Lynch’s words ‘everyone needs a pay rise ‘


----------



## two sheds (Dec 1, 2022)

Everyone does. It would be a lot easier for a government to bring back rent controls, though. I'd have thought that most landlords - certainly those who bought 10+ years ago - would still be making a profit if rents were halved.


----------



## Maltin (Dec 1, 2022)

Serge Forward said:


> I keep hearing that but I don't see the day to day evidence. Must be that I don't know anyone who's had a pay rise anywhere near 5%. And yes, taking in inflation, etc, it's pay cuts all round.


A very small sample but a group of friends on a what’s app chat in September in various industries and roles (although in the same region) were talking about it and all five of us had increases in the year. One factory got a 4% increase, another 10%. Another factory got an increase too and the other who works for a maintenance company also gave frontline staff a cost of living increase (I don’t know what percentages). I was fortunate and got an above inflation increase. While a tiny sample, it’s seems roughly similar to what the ONS report.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Dec 1, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> Basic supply and demand theory I'd assume. With a smaller pool of labour to choose from, the price of that labour can increase. Isn't that why people complain about foreign labour undercutting local wages?


Less to export so less demand for labour.


----------



## Maltin (Dec 1, 2022)

sleaterkinney said:


> Less to export so less demand for labour.


I don’t see less demand for labour currently but possibly we might see that next year.


----------



## Karl Masks (Dec 1, 2022)

sleaterkinney said:


> Less to export so less demand for labour.


not exactly a brexit win.


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 1, 2022)

Serge Forward said:


> I keep hearing that but I don't see the day to day evidence. Must be that I don't know anyone who's had a pay rise anywhere near 5%. And yes, taking in inflation, etc, it's pay cuts all round.



Just a quick google search at half time for this year 

13% pay rise for thousands of British Airways staff
Stagecoach bus drivers in Aldershot and Guildford 13% and 12%
700 Heinz workers secure pay rise worth 11%
Banbury Barry Callebaut chocolate workers 10% pay increase
300 workers at Gatwick get 21 per cent pay rise
10 per cent pay rise at Glasgow Airport
 Glasgow Airport workers win 28.5 per cent pay rise
12 per cent pay rise for Rugby Council  street cleaners and refuse collectors
 300 HGV drivers at McPhersons win 20 per cent pay rise over two years
 Lloyds  has offered UK staff a minimum 2,000 pounds  8-13% for lower paid staff
Local authorities have offered school support staff and other council workers a £1,925 pay rise.The offer, if agreed by unions, would mean a 10.5 per cent hike for the lowest-paid and 4.04 per cent for higher earners 
Liverpool dockers employed by Peel Ports have won pay hikes between 14 per cent and 18 per cent plus


----------



## Duncan2 (Dec 1, 2022)

Strewth must draw this to the attention of my employer who has been working out what a fair payrise would amount to since we petitioned him in week thirty seven.very complicated calculation it seems😁😟


----------



## Serge Forward (Dec 1, 2022)

Yep, that's workers who struck, or threatened strike action who got a bit more.


----------



## editor (Dec 1, 2022)

Another Brexit win!



> Brexit added almost £6bn to UK food bills in the two years to the end of 2021, affecting poorest households the most, research has found.
> 
> The cost of food imported from the EU shot up because of extra red tape, adding £210 to the average household food bills over 2020 and 2021, London School of Economics (LSE) researchers discovered.
> 
> ...











						Brexit added nearly £6bn to UK food bills in two years, research finds
					

Cost of food imported from EU rose because of extra red tape, with poorest most affected




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## ItStillWontWork (Dec 4, 2022)

Maltin said:


> They didn’t struggle so much before Brexit. If you can’t pay enough once your government cuts off the supply of labour and thereby increases the cost, you ain’t got a business may be more accurate. See also increases in fuel costs since the reduction in supply recently.



So agriculture is an unviable business without a supply of cheap labour to exploit?


----------



## prunus (Dec 4, 2022)

ItStillWontWork said:


> So agriculture is an unviable business without a supply of cheap labour to exploit?



At the current prices people want/expect to pay for food in this country, yup, looks like it.


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 4, 2022)

prunus said:


> At the current prices people want/expect to pay for food in this country, yup, looks like it.


That doesn't really explain how  in July this year the top four supermarkets projected profit for 2021/22 was over £4billion before tax , the Co-op profits of £57m for 2021 and Waitrose, £14.44m.


----------



## prunus (Dec 4, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> That doesn't really explain how  in July this year the top four supermarkets projected profit for 2021/22 was over £4billion before tax , the Co-op profits of £57m for 2021 and Waitrose, £14.44m.



Well, a large proportion, probably the vast majority (?) of those profits will have come from retailing products other than British agricultural ones, but for more precision I suppose one could add “(adding in the retailers’ and other intermediaries’ profit margins)” after “pay for food” without changing the sense of it.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 4, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> That doesn't really explain how  in July this year the top four supermarkets projected profit for 2021/22 was over £4billion before tax , the Co-op profits of £57m for 2021 and Waitrose, £14.44m.


Nationalise the supermarkets


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 4, 2022)

prunus said:


> Well, a large proportion, probably the vast majority (?) of those profits will have come from retailing products other than British agricultural ones, but for more precision I suppose one could add “(adding in the retailers’ and other intermediaries’ profit margins)” after “pay for food” without changing the sense of it.


Good question about where the vast majority of those profits will have come from though .


----------



## Maltin (Dec 4, 2022)

ItStillWontWork said:


> So agriculture is an unviable business without a supply of cheap labour to exploit?


Did I say that?


----------



## ItStillWontWork (Dec 4, 2022)

Maltin said:


> Did I say that?



It certainly seemed that way. What was it you were saying then?


----------



## Ax^ (Dec 8, 2022)

finally a benefit of brexit new coal mine

all we need to do now is started sending school children down it


----------



## A380 (Dec 8, 2022)




----------



## The39thStep (Dec 8, 2022)

A380 said:


> View attachment 354880


Oldie but goldie


----------



## Ax^ (Dec 8, 2022)

sorta like a coal mine whilst attempting to restrict peoples right to strike


----------



## Ming (Dec 19, 2022)

If you were ever naive enough to think that Brexit wasn’t a total Tory stitch up look at this interaction between a Tory voting wine importer and JRM.

This is disaster capitalism (JRM’s dad wrote a fucking book about it and junior moved his funds over to Ireland after the result).



ETA:
It’s funny having this weird confluence of some education in financial understanding and having been a front line psychiatric bod. When i watch JRM watch his eyes. His paralanguage. Look at the nervousness in his eyes.


----------



## gosub (Dec 19, 2022)

A380 said:


> View attachment 354880


 Had the misfortune to see the Killers earlier this year, more a popular beat combo than rap, and they mentioned (rather a lot) that they were from Las Vagas


----------



## Tanya1982 (Dec 19, 2022)

gosub said:


> Had the misfortune to see the Killers earlier this year, more a popular beat combo than rap, and they mentioned (rather a lot) that they were from Las Vagas


How were they pronouncing that? Soft or hard G?


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 19, 2022)

A380 said:


> View attachment 354880


one for the bandwidth thread there, a380


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 19, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> finally a benefit of brexit new coal mine
> 
> all we need to do now is started sending school children down it


we could start with sending everyone at eton down it. and winchester, westminster etc


----------



## mojo pixy (Dec 19, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> we could start with sending everyone at eton down it. and winchester, westminster etc


Natural leaders


----------



## Ax^ (Dec 19, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> we could start with sending everyone at eton down it. and winchester, westminster etc



sounds like a plan they been able to pull themselves up by their boot straps and restart the industry


----------



## brogdale (Dec 21, 2022)

Polling trend:


----------



## ska invita (Dec 23, 2022)

Quite a lot of public spending money tbf










						Brexit costs government £40 billion a year in lost tax revenue | ITV News
					

The evidence increasingly shows that our decision to leave the EU has lifted the price of imported goods, flattened business investment and damaged trade.  | ITV National News




					www.itv.com


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 23, 2022)

brogdale said:


> Polling trend:



when is the vote?


----------



## Yossarian (Dec 23, 2022)

ska invita said:


> Quite a lot of public spending money tbf
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Works out to enough to "send the EU £350 million a week," which was a bogus claim in the first place, plus £420 million a week for the NHS.


----------



## hash tag (Dec 23, 2022)

ska invita said:


> Quite a lot of public spending money tbf
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Think of the money we have been saving.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 23, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> when is the vote?


Sooner than we might think, I'd imagine?


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 23, 2022)

brogdale said:


> Sooner than we might think, I'd imagine?


That depends on what 'we' think tbh. Take it you will be abstaining cometh the great day?


----------



## brogdale (Dec 23, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> That depends on what 'we' think tbh. Take it you will be abstaining cometh the great day?


Difficult to see myself engaging with a plebiscite about versions of neoliberal acceleration, but silly to say never; who knows?


----------



## Maltin (Dec 23, 2022)

hash tag said:


> Think of the money we have been saving.
> 
> View attachment 356766


To be fair, we’re still paying them £200m a week for our previous agreed liability.


----------



## Maggot (Dec 29, 2022)

So Retained EU Law bill is due to be passed by the end of next year. 

Amongst the laws under threat are:

The right to paid holiday
The right to paid maternity leave
Equal rights for agency workers
Protection for part time and short-term contract workers
Protection for workers whose employers have been taken over by another company.


And those are just the ones dealing with workers. 









						The Retained EU Law Bill is a disaster in the making
					

Trade unionists should recognise what is at risk from the Bill and its sunset clauses.




					leftfootforward.org


----------



## Ax^ (Dec 29, 2022)

brave new world


----------



## T & P (Dec 29, 2022)

Maggot said:


> So Retained EU Law bill is due to be passed by the end of next year.
> 
> Amongst the laws under threat are:
> 
> ...


Oh well, not a concern anyway. I’m sure the workers’ revolution we were told would come about if the UK left the EU is really, genuinely just about to happen any moment now


----------



## bimble (Dec 29, 2022)

I still don't think they'll be passing that bill. If they want to get rid of existing workers rights they can just do it, with their new Brexit Freedoms, but the 'lets delete every single eu law automatically without thinking about what will replace them first' was just JRM's stupid gesture.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 30, 2022)

Here you go Leavists; fill yer boots with the wealthy, remainiac angst


----------



## MrCurry (Dec 30, 2022)

brogdale said:


> Here you go Leavists; fill yer boots with the wealthy, remainiac angst



I strongly suspect Geneva Airport does not have a separate queue line for British passport holders, and the picture is actually of the non-EU passport line which is always much longer in every EU border crossing, due to the extra checks made, stamps in passports, etc.


----------



## Cerv (Dec 30, 2022)

the tweet doesn't say it's a British only queue.


----------



## Raheem (Dec 30, 2022)

I'd dread to think what happens if one of them doesn't make it to the desk before the tax quarter ends.


----------



## MrCurry (Dec 30, 2022)

Cerv said:


> the tweet doesn't say it's a British only queue.


ok, fair enough. I see that on second reading


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 30, 2022)

TopCat said:


> If remain had won you lot would have said never another vote. Cast in stone it would have been.


Don't be so fucking stupid.
The thing with a referendum - of even acknowledging the existence of referenda by having one - is that by its nature it allows the possibility of another vote. I know you're a bit obsessive about "leave", but do try to not chat shite. It makes the rest of us look foolish.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 30, 2022)

Cerv said:


> didn't he make the same promise with the Brexit Party in 2019, right up until they decided not to stand against most Tories?


They carried on taking donations right up to the wire - over £1 million according to Private Eye - on the premise of standing candidates in every constituency. Never refunded the donations, either. Odd, that.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 30, 2022)

spitfire said:


> What a racist cunt. Not even hiding it.
> 
> "When British citizens *–* many of whom are struggling to pay their own bills *–* see young men from different cultures hanging around in their towns and villages, they feel an understandable sense of confusion and anger at the lack of control shown by the state. The state’s first duty is to protect its own people, a principle that seems to have been shredded without discussion. "
> 
> But yeah, this should do for the tories good and proper. Forward to a socialist paradise with Kieth Stärmer.


The ludicrous thing is that we know the likes of Tice, Farage, Banks - the other "Gobshites of Brexit" - would be to the fore in exploiting immigrants & immigration if they ever achieved power. They're no different than Labour or the Tories in that regard. They'll do anything to feed the capitalist beast.


----------



## philosophical (Dec 30, 2022)

So after the vote for the whole of the UK to leave the EU and have two different systems either side of a border when are the leave voters going to establish what they voted for?
So far the leave voting morons have established nothing beyond absolute damaging crap.
As far as I can tell every person who voted leave are allies of Farage and the rest of them. Lexiters are shameless in their retrofit justification, but as things stand Lexiters and Farage, and Rees Mogg, and all the others are people with the same vile outlook.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 30, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> the problem with politics being carried out as close to home as possible is that our politicians, the people carrying them out, are as sorry a bunch of incompetent, lacklustre, shitferbrains misfits and fuckwits in the worst sense of all those words as you'll ever encounter


Fuck you for being so polite about them, you cunt!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 30, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> You'll find that sentiment in just about every EU state as well tbh


The difference being that in many of those states, & even in the benighted US of A, there are methods in place whereby odious politicians can be threatened with removal (recall) at any time during their tenure if they wander too far from what a majority of their constituents want. Here, we're utterly fucking kebabed in that regard.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 30, 2022)

Yossarian said:


> How soon we forget the constant fear of being mistaken for a Dutchman that people lived with pre-2016.


Sorry. Ik spreek geen Nederlandstalig!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 30, 2022)

bimble said:


> View attachment 352841
> Freedom from safe working hours & holiday pay and the return of our god given right to club seals over the head 👍


Great!!! I fucking love seal-clubbing!!!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 30, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Has anyone ever had a phone call from someone who just talks and talks, probably for the fun of it,  and you've put the phone down walked into the kitchen, made a cup of tea and a sandwich, picked the phone up again and they are still in full flow oblivious?
> Edit . Sorry wrong thread


I watch my mate Ren do this at least twice a week when his mum phones. She lets fly with "stream of consciousness" rants that last at least 45 minutes, sometimes double that. He's made us both tea & a cheese toastie then returned, picked up the phone & started speaking again. Amazing!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 30, 2022)

bimble said:


> i really don't get 'i feel more recognised as English'.
> Where is this joyous experience happening is it at airports or just day to day as you go about your English life in England.


"English" is bollocks. I get why my Slovakian friend feels Hungarian - she's ethnic Hungarian & spent the first 20 years of her life being treated as a 2nd class Slovak because of it. The English though, they've not really faced systemic & systematic oppression as a nationality since the 11th century. I don't feel "English". I'm a Briton, & so are my mates whose parents came from African nations, from Hong Kong, from the Indian subcontinent, from the Caribbean etc. Even the Jocks, the Taffs & King Billy's favourite sons are Britons.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 30, 2022)

Tanya1982 said:


> No. Btw - would you really do that to people who call you?


Why not?


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Dec 30, 2022)

ViolentPanda said:


> Great!!! I fucking love seal-clubbing!!!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 30, 2022)

A380 said:


> Direct legacy of the Levellers apparently:
> 
> View attachment 352972


Fucking shite band. Neo-hippy cunts!!!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 30, 2022)

Puddy_Tat said:


> View attachment 357790


Where's me baseball bat???


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 30, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> ask them if they are Irish


Then leg it.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 30, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> It’s almost as if they are replicating an EU type workforce


At much cheaper cost, though.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 30, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> Nationalise the supermarkets


Hurrah for Victory Gin from the Victory Supermarket!!!


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Dec 30, 2022)

brogdale said:


> Here you go Leavists; fill yer boots with the wealthy, remainiac angst





There is no EU and Swiss line at GVA. There is arrivals from Schengen Zone (no inspection for any nationality), arrivals for EU and several other non-EU nationalities, (Swiss, Icelandic, Norwegian, San Marino, Holy See etc.) from outside the Schengen Zone, and a rest of the world lane. The sole reason that the U.K. isn’t added to the list of non-EU nationalities is a political decision. Some EU countries are a bit more grown up about these things (Portugal), regional airports all over the EU also don’t give a toss.

The U.K. isn’t so petty as to take part in these childish games, EU and a shed—load more can use the same lane as U.K. passports. And due to nearly 13 years of Tory rule every cunt must have a long wait…


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 30, 2022)

philosophical said:


> So after the vote for the whole of the UK to leave the EU and have two different systems either side of a border when are the leave voters going to establish what they voted for?
> So far the leave voting morons have established nothing beyond absolute damaging crap.
> As far as I can tell every person who voted leave are allies of Farage and the rest of them. Lexiters are shameless in their retrofit justification, but as things stand Lexiters and Farage, and Rees Mogg, and all the others are people with the same vile outlook.


Merry Xmas and a Happy New Year btw


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Dec 30, 2022)

As I basically heard someone say the other day - Brexit hasn't helped but it didn't create the awful problems that were already there when we were in the EU -  the crises involving housing, the NHS, the 'education' system, inflation, our dying infrastucture and the rotten, crumbling  political institutions and incompetance of those in power. The current situation would've happened with or without brexit. Its just one of the things, along with the pandemic, thats sped things up. Its time to drop all this brexit/remain shit along with all of the political parties and top-down politics in general and create/build up a genuine alternative of our own..


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 30, 2022)

ViolentPanda said:


> At much cheaper cost, though.


All about margins - over 70% of workers in Portugal earn less than 1000 euros a month  ( about £900) . God knows what the eastern  European states figures are .


----------



## brogdale (Dec 30, 2022)

AmateurAgitator said:


> As I basically heard someone say the other day - Brexit hasn't helped but it didn't create the awful problems that were already there when we were in the EU -  the crises involving housing, the NHS, the 'education' system, inflation, our dying infrastucture and the rotten, crumbling  political institutions and incompetance of those in power. The current situation would've happened with or without brexit. Its just one of the things, along with the pandemic, thats sped things up. Its time to drop all this brexit/remain shit along with all of the political parties and top-down politics in general and create/build up a genuine alternative of our own..


That's a fair take, but i've tended to look at it from the other way round. We got Brexit because of all of those crises resulting from the neoliberal consolidator state. I'm still convinced that many of the boomer/silent generations, (for want of better descriptors), were convinced that "change" was needed because they genuinely remembered the better times of the social contract.


----------



## philosophical (Dec 30, 2022)

AmateurAgitator said:


> As I basically heard someone say the other day - Brexit hasn't helped but it didn't create the awful problems that were already there when we were in the EU -  the crises involving housing, the NHS, the 'education' system, inflation, our dying infrastucture and the rotten, crumbling  political institutions and incompetance of those in power. The current situation would've happened with or without brexit. Its just one of the things, along with the pandemic, thats sped things up. Its time to drop all this brexit/remain shit along with all of the political parties and top-down politics in general and create/build up a genuine alternative of our own..


Go on then.
Start with solving the land border issue in light of the Belfast Agreement.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Dec 30, 2022)

philosophical said:


> Go on then.
> Start with solving the land border issue in light of the Belfast Agreement.


You're completely missing the point - and is what I said about the problems we already had while we were in the EU not true?


----------



## philosophical (Dec 30, 2022)

AmateurAgitator said:


> You're completely missing the point - and is what I said about the problems we already had while we were in the EU not true?



I am completely on point. If you vote to leave somewhere you create a border. In this case a land border in Ireland.
The UK was front and centre of the EU, so any problems were UK problems


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Dec 30, 2022)

philosophical said:


> I am completely on point. If you vote to leave somewhere you create a border. In this case a land border in Ireland.
> The UK was front and centre of the EU, so any problems were UK problems


I did say that brexit hadn't helped things. Is it not true that we already had the crises involving housing, the NHS, the 'education' system, inflation, our dying infrastucture and the rotten, crumbling  political institutions and the incompetance of those in power when we were in the EU? Or was everything absolutely fine?


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Dec 30, 2022)

brogdale said:


> We got Brexit because of all of those crises resulting from the neoliberal consolidator state.


I agree with this. Are you referring to Callaghan's social contract?


----------



## brogdale (Dec 30, 2022)

AmateurAgitator said:


> I agree with this. Are you referring to Callaghan's social contract?


Not specifically; more the post-war "consensus" when fear of really existing system competition gave capital enough fear to concede the concessions associated with Beveridge and the pillars of the welfare state.


----------



## philosophical (Dec 30, 2022)

AmateurAgitator said:


> I did say that brexit hadn't helped things. Is it not true that we already had the crises involving housing, the NHS, the 'education' system, inflation, our dying infrastucture and the rotten, crumbling  political institutions and the incompetance of those in power when we were in the EU? Or was everything absolutely fine?



Yes I agree many areas of life were crap before the leave victory in 2016. But it is not about leave failing to help things, it is about the leave victory making things worse.
You mention building up a credible alternative of 'our' own.
I am assuming that by 'our' you mean the whole of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, so if it is time to 'drop all this brexit/remain shit', perhaps, for the sake of 'credibility' you can suggest a solution to the land border between 'us' and the EU that honours the Belfast Agreement.
Or do you favour a 'take no notice and hope it all goes away' solution?


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Dec 30, 2022)

brogdale said:


> Not specifically; more the post-war "consensus" when fear of really existing system competition gave capital enough fear to concede the concessions associated with Beveridge and the pillars of the welfare state.


Yeah I see what you're saying


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Dec 30, 2022)

philosophical said:


> Yes I agree many areas of life were crap before the leave victory in 2016. But it is not about leave failing to help things, it is about the leave victory making things worse.
> You mention building up a credible alternative of 'our' own.
> I am assuming that by 'our' you mean the whole of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, so if it is time to 'drop all this brexit/remain shit', perhaps, for the sake of 'credibility' you can suggest a solution to the land border between 'us' and the EU that honours the Belfast Agreement.
> Or do you favour a 'take no notice and hope it all goes away' solution?


Well I doubt I  have all the answers all by myself, but how about trying to unify across borders and aiming to dissolve nation states? Worth a try surely. I think that ultimately thats what we need to work towards as working class people.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 30, 2022)

How does one work towards the dissolution of nation states? 

Can you name a thing we can all do to further the cause?


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Dec 30, 2022)

littlebabyjesus said:


> How does one work towards the dissolution of nation states?
> 
> Can you name a thing we can all do to further the cause?


I think we can make a start by building up and creating autonomous alternatives from below. But I also did say that I doubt I have all the answers all by myself.

And btw are you really that clueless about what anarchists think?


----------



## philosophical (Dec 30, 2022)

AmateurAgitator said:


> Well I doubt I  have all the answers all by myself, but how about trying to unify across borders and aiming to dissolve nation states? Worth a try surely. I think that ultimately thats what we need to work towards as working class people.


 Were you alive during the modern Irish troubles that resulted in over 3000 deaths, and many more severely injured?

If you are all about unifying across borders don't you think the vote to leave was about damaging unity (yes unsatisfactory unity though it may have been), and perhaps as a first step, in the light of the modern Irish troubles and the Belfast Agreement, sorting out that border should be a first priority?
That won't happen if we 'drop all this brexit/remain shit' because the land border is all about 'the brexit/remain' shit.
Unless, as I have said, you think take no notice and hope it all goes away is the solution.
Don't worry about not having all the answers by yourself, no bugger has any answer, let alone all of them.


----------



## editor (Dec 30, 2022)

Fucking Brexit








						UK ministers pledged to match EU funds after Brexit. How’s that going?
					

Delays to new programmes have affected support for vulnerable people, ‘throwing the baby out with the bathwater’




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## StakerOne (Dec 31, 2022)

ViolentPanda said:


> Don't be so fucking stupid.
> The thing with a referendum - of even acknowledging the existence of referenda by having one - is that by its nature it allows the possibility of another vote. I know you're a bit obsessive about "leave", but do try to not chat shite. It makes the rest of us look foolish.


OK. So when should this referendum take place? 
2024?
Im no mathematian, that's 8 years after the first. 
You're happy with a referendum in 2032, right?


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 1, 2023)

Just slip out the back, jack
Make a new plan, stan


----------



## not a trot (Jan 1, 2023)

The39thStep said:


> Just slip out the back, jack
> Make a new plan, stan
> View attachment 358029



Broadsheet in those days.


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 1, 2023)

not a trot said:


> Broadsheet in those days.


There was that whole learning curve with broadsheets of opening, turning the pages, and then folding it correctly if you were on a bus or train


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 1, 2023)

The39thStep said:


> There was that whole learning curve with broadsheets of opening, turning the pages, and then folding it correctly if you were on a bus or train


Broadsheets make the best Millwall bricks


----------



## Serge Forward (Jan 2, 2023)

not a trot said:


> Broadsheet in those days.


Nope. It had already gone tabloid. I delivered it to one or two houses on my paper round in 1973. Obviously to the local wrong uns.

Eta: looked it up and t'internet sez it went tabloid in 71.


----------



## A380 (Jan 2, 2023)

editor said:


> Fucking Brexit
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It’s almost like the right of the Tory Party,  BoJo the clown and the man frog* lied..


 ( * heroes of Lexit obvs) l


----------



## brogdale (Jan 2, 2023)

If only the UK had voted to Leave the supra state...


----------



## Yossarian (Jan 2, 2023)

brogdale said:


> If only the UK had voted to Leave the supra state...




Wow, that's ... something.

"OK, we're gong to film the 'Outside the EU' segment now, can everybody except a few cheerful white people leave the waiting room please."


----------



## Raheem (Jan 2, 2023)

The punchline is everyone was staying away from A&E because it was too expensive.


----------



## TopCat (Jan 3, 2023)

philosophical said:


> So after the vote for the whole of the UK to leave the EU and have two different systems either side of a border when are the leave voters going to establish what they voted for?
> So far the leave voting morons have established nothing beyond absolute damaging crap.
> As far as I can tell every person who voted leave are allies of Farage and the rest of them. Lexiters are shameless in their retrofit justification, but as things stand Lexiters and Farage, and Rees Mogg, and all the others are people with the same vile outlook.











						Brexit: Mistakes were made on all sides, says Leo Varadkar
					

The Irish prime minister says perhaps the Northern Ireland protocol is a "little bit too strict".



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## brogdale (Jan 3, 2023)

TopCat said:


> Brexit: Mistakes were made on all sides, says Leo Varadkar
> 
> 
> The Irish prime minister says perhaps the Northern Ireland protocol is a "little bit too strict".
> ...


But what do you think?


----------



## philosophical (Jan 3, 2023)

TopCat said:


> Brexit: Mistakes were made on all sides, says Leo Varadkar
> 
> 
> The Irish prime minister says perhaps the Northern Ireland protocol is a "little bit too strict".
> ...



And?
What does your mate Farage say?


----------



## prunus (Jan 3, 2023)

TopCat said:


> Brexit: Mistakes were made on all sides, says Leo Varadkar
> 
> 
> The Irish prime minister says perhaps the Northern Ireland protocol is a "little bit too strict".
> ...



In the negotiation there were certainly mistakes made on the UK side, as we've ended up with something unworkable for us (I mean - assuming that was a mistake and not the aim...).  It's not clear that the EU have ended up in such a bad position, and I'd read this statement as mollifying politics rather than anything else.

Of course none of those mistakes were as bad as doing brexit in the first place, which was obviously always going to be, has been, is, and will continue until functionally reversed to be a shitshow for the UK.


----------



## Ranbay (Jan 3, 2023)

brogdale said:


> But what do you think?



Mostly about Jet from Galdiators....


----------



## ouirdeaux (Jan 3, 2023)

I was listening to talk radio last night, for my sins. Apparently Brexit isn't working because people don't believe in it enough.


----------



## brogdale (Jan 3, 2023)

ouirdeaux said:


> I was listening to talk radio last night, for my sins. Apparently Brexit isn't working because people don't believe in it enough.


Very Brechtian...


----------



## TopCat (Jan 3, 2023)

brogdale said:


> But what do you think?


I think the lack of leakage or smuggling shows a better deal can be made and that a lot of the issues stopping such a deal (EU egos) have lessened.


----------



## TopCat (Jan 3, 2023)

philosophical said:


> And?
> What does your mate Farage say?


<insert wanker emoji here>


----------



## brogdale (Jan 3, 2023)

TopCat said:


> I think the lack of leakage or smuggling shows a better deal can be made and that a lot of the issues stopping such a deal (EU egos) have lessened.


It comes down to a matter of trust between 2 polities; for whatever reason(s) there wasn't sufficient trust until now?


----------



## Ax^ (Jan 3, 2023)

TopCat said:


> I think the lack of leakage or smuggling shows a better deal can be made and that a lot of the issues stopping such a deal (EU egos) have lessened.



eu egos hmm seeming as brexit was rushed thru without forward planning on the north Ireland issue 

not the only egos that need to be checked


----------



## two sheds (Jan 3, 2023)

TopCat said:


> I think the lack of leakage or smuggling shows a better deal can be made and that a lot of the issues stopping such a deal (EU egos) have lessened.


Any figures on that? (Difficult because it would by definition not really be visible.) It was the problem I thought there'd be.


----------



## JimW (Jan 3, 2023)

I think I've come up with a solution to the Irish border issue.

Oh no, hang on, that wouldn't work.


----------



## Ax^ (Jan 3, 2023)

just deporting the orangemen back to the mainland would work wonders


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 3, 2023)

Ax^ said:


> just deporting the orangemen back to the mainland would work wonders


if you look on the tricolour there's orange and green with the bar of white for peace between them, not for shipping them off


----------



## Yossarian (Jan 3, 2023)

ouirdeaux said:


> I was listening to talk radio last night, for my sins. Apparently Brexit isn't working because people don't believe in it enough.



Did anybody suggest having three ghosts visit Remoaners to teach them the true meaning of Brexit?


----------



## Ax^ (Jan 3, 2023)

Pickman's model said:


> if you look on the tricolour there's orange and green with the bar of white for peace between them, not for shipping them off



I don't mean the whole protestant population of north Ireland they are grand just the current shower of orangemen link MPs who are happy to fuck the entire of the north over to score political points


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 3, 2023)

Ax^ said:


> I don't mean the whole protestant population of north Ireland they are grand just the current shower of orangemen link MPs who are happy to fuck the entire of the north over to score political points


----------



## bimble (Jan 4, 2023)

Let’s stop sending money to the eu and fund humanitarian aid for lorry drivers stuck in Kent for days instead. 








						Disaster response charity enlisted to aid drivers stuck in UK queues for Channel
					

Exclusive: military veterans’ group RE:ACT gets £200,000 yearly contract to ensure welfare of lorry drivers gridlocked in Kent




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## two sheds (Jan 4, 2023)

Rising number of foreign objects found in patients after surgery in England
					

In what NHS calls ‘never events’, items including swabs, blades and drill bits left in patients 291 times in England in 2021-22




					www.theguardian.com
				




Bloody foreigners coming over here ...  
​


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 4, 2023)

bimble said:


> Let’s stop sending money to the eu and fund humanitarian aid for lorry drivers stuck in Kent for days instead.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Reminds me of this  









						Lorry drivers given free vegan sandwiches that can’t be confiscated by EU customs
					

Lorry drivers heading from the UK to the EU via the Channel Tunnel were handed free vegan sandwiches last weekend as part of a promo campaign by LoveSeitan a...




					trans.info


----------



## Lurdan (Jan 4, 2023)

two sheds said:


> Rising number of foreign objects found in patients after surgery in England
> 
> 
> In what NHS calls ‘never events’, items including swabs, blades and drill bits left in patients 291 times in England in 2021-22
> ...



Not very sensible for the NHS to be doing this when the British people are perfectly capable of doing it to themselves.






Metro story from November 2021 (archived)

The Brexit metaphors just write themselves now.


----------



## Wilf (Jan 4, 2023)

Lurdan said:


> Not very sensible for the NHS to be doing this when the British people are perfectly capable of doing it to themselves.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'd love to see the maths on that. Perhaps that R4 programme More or Less should do a special on it?


----------



## Wilf (Jan 4, 2023)

philosophical said:


> Go on then.
> Start with solving the land border issue in light of the Belfast Agreement.


I haven't been on this thread for months, but here you are still partying like it's 2016.


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 4, 2023)

Lurdan said:


> Not very sensible for the NHS to be doing this when the British people are perfectly capable of doing it to themselves.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Probably a French thing that got imported here under the EU


----------



## Wilf (Jan 4, 2023)

The39thStep said:


> Probably a French thing that got imported here under the EU


Yeah, I think you are right. It was originally a subsection of the _Straight Banana Protocol_.


----------



## Lurdan (Jan 4, 2023)

The39thStep said:


> Probably a French thing that got imported here under the EU



Actually, I think it's a cosmopolitan thing.






It's a real article.


----------



## JimW (Jan 4, 2023)

Lurdan said:


> Actually, I think it's a cosmopolitan thing.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


One from your bookmarks?


----------



## Lurdan (Jan 4, 2023)

JimW said:


> One from your bookmarks?


How very dare you. I'm still perfectly capable of googling up light-hearted silliness without resorting to my 'private stash'.


----------



## Wilf (Jan 4, 2023)

Should we merge the Brexit and Up the Arse threads?


----------



## two sheds (Jan 4, 2023)

Lurdan said:


> Not very sensible for the NHS to be doing this when the British people are perfectly capable of doing it to themselves.


So we could save £350,000 a year just by leaving them all there


----------



## Lurdan (Jan 4, 2023)

two sheds said:


> So we could save £350,000 a year just by leaving them all there



Indeed. From that Metro article:


> John O’Connell, chief executive of the thinktank TaxPayers’ Alliance, argued taxpayers will be ‘more than uncomfortable’ with the rising cost for these surgeries.


----------



## Karl Masks (Jan 4, 2023)

what about non random objects? What if I planned to shove a carrot up there? What then?


----------



## Wilf (Jan 4, 2023)

Karl Masks said:


> what about non random objects? What if I planned to shove a carrot up there? What then?


I always find it's best to be in the moment rather than plan these things. _You come home with the shopping, a carrot or other root vegetable tumbles out of the bag..._


----------



## Wilf (Jan 4, 2023)

Lurdan said:


> Indeed. From that Metro article:


I like how the taxpayer's alliance has been elevated to a 'thinktank'. Well, if harrumphing after your third double at the 19th hole is _thinking_...


----------



## Lucy Fur (Jan 4, 2023)

The39thStep said:


> Probably a French thing that got imported here under the EU


"Un papy se présente aux urgences avec un obus dans l’anus à Toulon: l’hôpital partiellement évacué - Nice-Matin" Un papy se présente aux urgences avec un obus dans l’anus à Toulon: l’hôpital partiellement évacué
Just a few days ago.


----------



## Ax^ (Jan 4, 2023)

Wilf said:


> Should we merge the Brexit and Up the Arse threads?



to quote Irvine Walsh for all the good it will do they might as well shove it up their arse


----------



## Elpenor (Jan 4, 2023)

Karl Masks said:


> what about non random objects? What if I planned to shove a carrot up there? What then?


The ancient Greeks used to shove radishes up there as a punishment.


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## andysays (Jan 4, 2023)

Elpenor said:


> The ancient Greeks used to shove radishes up there as a punishment.



What had the radishes done to deserve such a punishment?


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## The39thStep (Jan 4, 2023)

Elpenor said:


> The ancient Greeks used to shove radishes up there as a punishment.


I knew there was a reason for those elongated red and white ones being called French Breakfast


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## bimble (Jan 4, 2023)

That was ginger. It’s still quite popular so I hear, amongst certain people.


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## bimble (Jan 4, 2023)

.


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## two sheds (Jan 4, 2023)

Elpenor said:


> The ancient Greeks used to shove radishes up there as a punishment.


Their medical system must have cost a fortune.


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## The39thStep (Jan 4, 2023)

bimble said:


> That was ginger. It’s still quite popular so I hear, amongst certain people.


Probably in Kent


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## Elpenor (Jan 4, 2023)

andysays said:


> What had the radishes done to deserve such a punishment?











						ῥαφανιδόω: Never Look at A Radish in the Same Way Again
					

Aristophanes, Clouds 1083-104 Just Argument: “What if he should have a radish shoved up his ass because he trusted you and then have hot ashes rip off his hair? What argument will he be able to off…




					sententiaeantiquae.com
				




Nothing, it was an early example of vegetable mistreatment. I’m sure Brussels would not allow the practice nowadays, not even for Swedes.


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## Karl Masks (Jan 4, 2023)

Elpenor said:


> The ancient Greeks used to shove radishes up there as a punishment.


If you can't do the crime....


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## scalyboy (Jan 4, 2023)

News item in current Fortean Times (or was it today’s Metro?) about a bloke who rocked up at A&E with unexploded ordnance lodged up his jacksey


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## two sheds (Jan 4, 2023)

Nothing recently about downpours of frogs?


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## teqniq (Jan 4, 2023)

Originally from Private Eye:


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## Artaxerxes (Jan 4, 2023)

scalyboy said:


> News item in current Fortean Times (or was it today’s Metro?) about a bloke who rocked up at A&E with unexploded ordnance lodged up his jacksey




So they do, in fact, like it up em?


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## Raheem (Jan 4, 2023)

scalyboy said:


> News item in current Fortean Times (or was it today’s Metro?) about a bloke who rocked up at A&E with unexploded ordnance lodged up his jacksey


This is probably the French guy from the article linked to above.

Say what you like about the NHS, but they never ask you to shell out.


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## Karl Masks (Jan 6, 2023)

Good to see O'Brien using brexit to poison the well when interviewing Mick lynch on LBC the other day


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## AmateurAgitator (Jan 6, 2023)

Karl Masks said:


> Good to see O'Brien using brexit to poison the well when interviewing Mick lynch on LBC the other day


O'Brien is a centrist, establishment prick.


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## Karl Masks (Jan 6, 2023)

AmateurAgitator said:


> O'Brien is a centrist, establishment prick.


but he's not trapped under a cow


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## philosophical (Jan 6, 2023)

Karl Masks said:


> Good to see O'Brien using brexit to poison the well when interviewing Mick lynch on LBC the other day



Well I like Lynch, but his position on the vote to leave stank, and probably still stinks.
Feet of clay.


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## AmateurAgitator (Jan 6, 2023)

Karl Masks said:


> but he's not trapped under a cow


This is utter jibberish. I'm putting you on ignore.


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## Karl Masks (Jan 6, 2023)

philosophical said:


> Well I like Lynch, but his position on the vote to leave stank, and probably still stinks.
> Feet of clay.


I agree, the RMT brexit position is not one I feel is evidence based. Even if that were the case it ignores the overall economic harm and social devision and eclipsed opportunities now enjoyed by everyone not an international financier. 

However, Obrien's points are disingenuous. His line of attack is partisan and divisive: he's trying to blame Mick/the RMT for facilitating the verya ttack on workers rights now proposed by the Tories, by asserting that a berxit vote enabled them. This is true, but it ignores the fact Mick voted for Labour while Obrine loudly and regularly smeared him; the only alternative to the Tories. I don't know what brexit would have looked like under JC, but I'm not convinced it would have meant firing striking nurses - or even having the situation that currently exists where nurses feel compelled to strike for the first time.

IOW: Obrine is arguing with himself


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## Elpenor (Jan 6, 2023)

AmateurAgitator said:


> This is utter jibberish. I'm putting you on ignore.


Alan partridge reference


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## Pickman's model (Jan 6, 2023)

Elpenor said:


> Alan partridge reference


i don't suppose aa knows who alan partridge is, and he's certainly never seen watership alan


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## brogdale (Jan 6, 2023)

In his latest Substack piece, Prof Goodwin presents some polling data in which he attempts to demonstrate that when people are made aware of how harsh the conditions might be for the UK to rejoin the supra state, their preference for Brejoinery is diminished.


Whilst there was an undeniably significant impact when respondents were made aware of likely conditions of re-entry, I was struck by how little impact that had, and that still a majority of his respondents favoured rejoining.

The brexit project really does appear to have fallen out of favour.


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## prunus (Jan 6, 2023)

brogdale said:


> In his latest Substack piece, Prof Goodwin presents some polling data in which he attempts to demonstrate that when people are made aware of how harsh the conditions might be for the UK to rejoin the supra state, their preference for Brejoinery is diminished.
> 
> View attachment 358551
> Whilst there was an undeniably significant impact when respondents were made aware of likely conditions of re-entry, I was struck by how little impact that had, and that still a majority of his respondents favoured rejoining.
> ...


 
"in the second group [given details of all that rejoining will entail] this lead is slashed to a barely statistically significant [52 to 48] 4-points..."

🤣🤣🤣


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## TopCat (Saturday at 10:06 AM)

philosophical said:


> Well I like Lynch, but his position on the vote to leave stank, and probably still stinks.
> Feet of clay.


He was/is right.


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## The39thStep (Saturday at 10:09 AM)

Karl Masks said:


> I agree, the RMT brexit position is not one I feel is evidence based. Even if that were the case it ignores the overall economic harm and social devision and eclipsed opportunities now enjoyed by everyone not an international financier.
> 
> However, Obrien's points are disingenuous. His line of attack is partisan and divisive: he's trying to blame Mick/the RMT for facilitating the verya ttack on workers rights now proposed by the Tories, by asserting that a berxit vote enabled them. This is true, but it ignores the fact Mick voted for Labour while Obrine loudly and regularly smeared him; the only alternative to the Tories. I don't know what brexit would have looked like under JC, but I'm not convinced it would have meant firing striking nurses - or even having the situation that currently exists where nurses feel compelled to strike for the first time.
> 
> IOW: Obrine is arguing with himself


What evidence do you have that the RMT position was not evidence based?


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## Pickman's model (Saturday at 10:15 AM)

The39thStep said:


> What evidence do you have that the RMT position was not evidence based?


Just his feelings


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## Pickman's model (Saturday at 10:17 AM)

Karl Masks said:


> I agree, the RMT brexit position is not one I feel is evidence based. Even if that were the case it ignores the overall economic harm and social devision and eclipsed opportunities now enjoyed by everyone not an international financier.
> 
> However, Obrien's points are disingenuous. His line of attack is partisan and divisive: he's trying to blame Mick/the RMT for facilitating the verya ttack on workers rights now proposed by the Tories, by asserting that a berxit vote enabled them. This is true, but it ignores the fact Mick voted for Labour while Obrine loudly and regularly smeared him; the only alternative to the Tories. I don't know what brexit would have looked like under JC, but I'm not convinced it would have meant firing striking nurses - or even having the situation that currently exists where nurses feel compelled to strike for the first time.
> 
> IOW: Obrine is arguing with himself


Oh it's mick is it. Like you're on the same first name terms with him you were with Boris Johnson.


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## Chz (Saturday at 10:19 AM)

The39thStep said:


> What evidence do you have that the RMT position was not evidence based?


I'm going to take a stab at answering for him, but I think it was the lack of any being provided. Both sides of the debate are seriously guilty of dreaming up sugarplum fairies in their head and then applying their wishes to whichever side they prefer the look of. There's scant evidence for a majority of things promised by both sides in the run up to the referendum. I don't think it's picking on the RMT, it's true of most organisations that put a stake in the ground on the issue.


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## Yossarian (Saturday at 10:29 AM)

Mick Lynch didn't become general secretary of the RMT until almost 5 years after the referendum and with no plans to renegotiate the issue on the horizon, I don't know why the fuck O'Brien would be badgering him about his position.


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## The39thStep (Saturday at 10:33 AM)

Chz said:


> I'm going to take a stab at answering for him, but I think it was the lack of any being provided. Both sides of the debate are seriously guilty of dreaming up sugarplum fairies in their head and then applying their wishes to whichever side they prefer the look of. There's scant evidence for a majority of things promised by both sides in the run up to the referendum. I don't think it's picking on the RMT, it's true of most organisations that put a stake in the ground on the issue.


The RMT position was based on the aim of full  nationalisation of the railways.


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## brogdale (Saturday at 10:39 AM)

The39thStep said:


> The RMT position was based on the aim of full  nationalisation of the railways.


Yes, but technically based on (contested) legal opinion regarding the prospects of nationalisation within/without the supra state. Although I rarely listen to the loathsome LBC, I did happen to catch the Lynch interview in a car and he did appear to concede that supporting Brexit with the primary objective of nationalisation had the potential to see worker rights undermined in the UK faster than they might have been in the supra state. Lynch was quite nuanced and is no fool.


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## AmateurAgitator (Saturday at 10:43 AM)

Yossarian said:


> I don't know why the fuck O'Brien would be badgering him about his position.


Coz he's a prick who used to write for the Daily Express


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## andysays (Saturday at 10:51 AM)

TopCat said:


> He was/is right.



<philosophical posting>

He hasn't solved the Irish border issue though, has he..?


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## Yossarian (Saturday at 10:55 AM)

It all seems like divide-and-conquer stuff to me, Lynch has been an extremely effective advocate for his union and trade unions in general and I don't care for the opinions of anybody saying "But he's a Brexiteer!"


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## Chz (Saturday at 11:04 AM)

Yossarian said:


> It all seems like divide-and-conquer stuff to me, Lynch has been an extremely effective advocate for his union and trade unions in general and I don't care for the opinions of anybody saying "But he's a Brexiteer!"


I don't think, at this point, that should really be a deciding factor in these things. It's done, it's gone. I think Lynch does a good job depite the whole Brexit thing, because that's not the thing to focus on. He's managing the RMT quite well, and he's managing to protect his members without pissing off the rest of the public the way some predecessors did. There was some behaviour in the past that was great for members in the short term, but turned the RMT into the bete-noire/scapegoat for absolutely everything and that wasn't a viable long term strategy. In the long run, unions need public support to thrive and Lynch has been very, very good at managing their public face. I still think they were wrong to support Brexit (because it's totally possible to have a state run railway under EU regs), but in the here and now that's totally irrelevant.


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## brogdale (Saturday at 11:11 AM)

Chz said:


> I don't think, at this point, that should really be a deciding factor in these things. It's done, it's gone. I think Lynch does a good job depite the whole Brexit thing, because that's not the thing to focus on. He's managing the RMT quite well, and he's managing to protect his members without pissing off the rest of the public the way some predecessors did. There was some behaviour in the past that was great for members in the short term, but turned the RMT into the bete-noire/scapegoat for absolutely everything and that wasn't a viable long term strategy. In the long run, unions need public support to thrive and Lynch has been very, very good at managing their public face. I still think they were wrong to support Brexit (because it's totally possible to have a state run railway under EU regs), but in the here and now that's totally irrelevant.


At risk of a major derail here...  ...I'm not so convinced that having such an effective communicator as leader is necessarily a totally good thing for the interests of RMT members. I'm concerned that Lynch has made such mincemeat of the tory line on the dispute, (and achieved such popularity into the bargain) that the government will never allow the ToCs etc. to concede. I fear that, a la Scargill, the effective rabble rouser cannot be seen to win.

I suppose what I'm getting at is that it would be far better if the TUC had a Lynch to articulate class conflict so eloquently thus offering up a fire-wall to the actual unions...but I suppose that'll never happen?


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## The39thStep (Saturday at 11:36 AM)

brogdale said:


> Yes, but technically based on (contested) legal opinion regarding the prospects of nationalisation within/without the supra state. Although I rarely listen to the loathsome LBC, I did happen to catch the Lynch interview in a car and he did appear to concede that supporting Brexit with the primary objective of nationalisation had the potential to see worker rights undermined in the UK faster than they might have been in the supra state. Lynch was quite nuanced and is no fool.


I think he was stating a fact ie the potential rather than conceding anything . Ironically the proposed legislation on minimum staffing brings the U.K. in line with similar legislation in some European states including Portugal where in a mirror image we have railway workers , nurses and teachers all taking industrial action over pay , conditions and funding of a national health system . Workers inside and outside the EU are fighting the same issues .


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## brogdale (Saturday at 11:40 AM)

The39thStep said:


> I think he was stating a fact ie the potential rather than conceding anything . Ironically the proposed legislation on minimum staffing brings the U.K. in line with similar legislation in some European states including Portugal where in a mirror image we have railway workers , nurses and teachers all taking industrial action over pay , conditions and funding of a national health system . Workers inside and outside the EU are fighting the same issues .


They are; irrespective of whether their polity has membership of the supra state or not.
A fact which has never strengthened the (RMT) lexis case, IMO


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## The39thStep (Saturday at 12:05 PM)

brogdale said:


> They are; irrespective of whether their polity has membership of the supra state or not.
> A fact which has never strengthened the (RMT) lexis case, IMO


Which was based on full nationalisation of the railways


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## Karl Masks (Saturday at 12:34 PM)

TopCat said:


> He was/is right.


How so? Citations please


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## Karl Masks (Saturday at 12:36 PM)

Yossarian said:


> Mick Lynch didn't become general secretary of the RMT until almost 5 years after the referendum and with no plans to renegotiate the issue on the horizon, I don't know why the fuck O'Brien would be badgering him about his position.


Because Obrien works for LBC. At best this is considered 'robust debate' which some people think is a substitute for fact based evidence and calm discourse. At worst his job is to throw mud and see what sticks. Lynch upsets capital, capital pushes back, Obrien can do that job jsut as well as any of his creepy colleagues


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## philosophical (Saturday at 1:19 PM)

andysays said:


> <philosophical posting>
> 
> He hasn't solved the Irish border issue though, has he..?


Exactly.


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## andysays (Saturday at 1:39 PM)

philosophical said:


> Exactly.


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## Wilf (Saturday at 4:02 PM)

philosophical said:


> Exactly.


Every day, I look myself in the mirror and offer up the anguished cry: 'neither have I'. Every damn day.


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## brogdale (Yesterday at 8:59 AM)

A brexit benefit for the supra state; pour encourager les autres....


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## T & P (Yesterday at 10:32 AM)

brogdale said:


> A brexit benefit for the supra state; pour encourager les autres....
> 
> View attachment 359143


And here, finally, we have the very first (and almost certainly, last) real and tangible benefit Brexit has ever produced. Sadly, not to us.


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## bimble (Yesterday at 12:17 PM)

Spymaster said:


> Austria, Finland and Holland, have sizeable anti-EU political movements and some suggest that up to 50% of Italians want to leave. Those are where the next movements will come from.


Not anytime soon though; looks a lot like the appeal of leaving has plummeted since we led the way.










						Support for leaving EU has fallen significantly across bloc since Brexit
					

People less likely to vote leave in every EU member state for which data was available than in 2016-17, survey finds




					www.theguardian.com
				




Maybe its more to do with Russia than with our inspiring example, idk.

eta i see brogdale has done this already but still, why do people reckon this is happening?


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