# Are the Welsh a separate "race"?



## TeeJay (Jun 23, 2004)

Over to you.


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## ernestolynch (Jun 23, 2004)

What's it to do with you?


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## butchersapron (Jun 23, 2004)

*unsubscribes from thread*
*and*
*bangs on perspex screen*


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## Pingu (Jun 23, 2004)

no we are not a seperate race..  a seperate culture yes.

Try this same thread but using "indians" or Jamacans" and see what sort of response you get




muppet


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## ernestolynch (Jun 23, 2004)

*Votes the opposite of Teejay's vote*
AND
*Tears England flag off of flimsier (thief)'s car*

*And bangs on perspex screen after butchers*


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## butchersapron (Jun 23, 2004)

*Votes the opposite of Teejay's vote*
AND
*Tears England flag off of flimsier (thief)'s car*

*And bangs on perspex screen after butchers*

*and*
*puts moron back on ignore*


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## Pingu (Jun 23, 2004)

anyone got a book going on how long till this hits the bin?


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## ernestolynch (Jun 23, 2004)

*Votes the opposite of Teejay's vote*
AND
*Tears England flag off of flimsier (thief)'s car*

*And bangs on perspex screen after butchers*

*and*
*puts moron back on ignore*

_and_
*Unsubscribes to thread*


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## Belushi (Jun 23, 2004)

A separate ethnic group rather than a separate race, but it really depends on what you mean by 'race'.


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## butchersapron (Jun 23, 2004)

*and goes to do some work*


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## Funky_monks (Jun 23, 2004)

No, Wales is a nation where the *Welsh* live. Many separate *races* exist there.


Twat.




<edited to add> If you really are that bothered about the various *races* present in Wales try reading "A History of Wales" by John Davies. If, as I suspect you're being a trolling prick, you can fuck off.


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## ernestolynch (Jun 23, 2004)

Rascist!!!


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## Jorum (Jun 23, 2004)

All in all race is a fairly artificial idea.

You can look at genetic similarities in groups, but even then it doesn't really equate to anything meaningful.

Social customs etc are more meaningful, but that isn't what most people call "race" anyway.
Although it is fairly meaningless, people might be interested to know that there is apparently quite a noticable genetic "divide" between the welsh and other UK populations. (for example english/europe is generally much closer genetically)

Although the mDNA analysis methods usually used for these comparisons are, in the opinion of some, faulty and misleading.


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## Corax (Jun 23, 2004)

Someone was bored and wanted a fight then...


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## ernestolynch (Jun 23, 2004)

Are the Japs a seperate race? What about the Septics?


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## bosco (Jun 23, 2004)

what about the goms?


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## ernestolynch (Jun 23, 2004)

or the gays?


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## goldenecitrone (Jun 23, 2004)

Don't know about race, but a different species, definitely


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## Macabre (Jun 23, 2004)

Genetically celts have different characteristic markers from the english but the expresion of these genes doesnt create a distinct physical difference.  So genetically yes they are but in practice no.


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## ernestolynch (Jun 23, 2004)

What about all the Scots ginger nuts then ?


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## veracity (Jun 23, 2004)

A separate race from whom?

Oh do grow up.


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## rubbershoes (Jun 23, 2004)

gertcha


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## Strumpet (Jun 23, 2004)

*wanders in.....looks around....*    

gwirionyn  @ TeeJay


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## ernestolynch (Jun 23, 2004)

Mae'r boi Teejay yn ddigri iawn pan mae o wedi ddechrau malu cachu fel hyn, y twp.


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## FreddyB (Jun 23, 2004)

My cousins welsh and he's in a seperate reality. Nothin to do with him bein welsh, he's just a nutter.


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## Pingu (Jun 23, 2004)

actually if being pedantic are we gogs a seperate race from the southern welsh?


my favourite race was the 800 metres I was quite good at that


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## ernestolynch (Jun 23, 2004)

Gogs are racially purer than the hwntwrs. On Ynys Mon you will find the purest Cymric race. On Lleyn the blood was mixed with Irish from Leinster (hence the name). Further East towards the Clwydian Range you will encounter a mixture of Pure Cymry and Brythonic refugees from Elmet and other Celtic nations over-run by the Hunnish invaders.

In the midlands - Powys  - you will find a hybrid of Cymry and some Mercian stock, from when Welsh raiders would kidnap the less-ugly women of Saxon race and take them back to breed.

Pembrokeshire is known as Little England although French and Flemish were settled there by the Norman overlords, then English people were settled and the local Welsh kicked off the land.

In the South Wales industrial heartlands you will find a mongrelised Welshman - a mixture of immigrants during the industrial age from Italy, Spain, Ireland, Scotland and England. 

Monmouthshire (Gwent) are practically English.

Kernow (Cernyw) was known as 'South Wales' until recently and the Cornish race is the same as the Cymric, as are the Bretons in Breizh, who fled overseas to escape the  Germanic hordes.



Stick that in your pipe and smoke it, TJ.


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## Hocus Eye. (Jun 23, 2004)

Come on then Ernesto lets have your Bibliography and other sources for this. Have you got any primary evidence?

Hocus Eye - you'm not from round these parts are you?


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## ernestolynch (Jun 23, 2004)

*Taps on head*
Its all up here, kid.


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## Funky_monks (Jun 23, 2004)

"Racially purer" eh, Ern?

Does this mean that someone from Rhyl is more "genetically pure" than someone from Pontyprydd?

The whole question's fucked up if you ask me. It's the same as asking if the  English or French or Spanish etc are a 'race'. Your race is not nescessarily based on your geographical location, is it?


If you want an example of how many 'races' are also Welsh, take a look at the national rugby team.


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## Streathamite (Jun 23, 2004)

If you regard the anglo-saxons as a race, and the Seppoes as a race by now, and the Franks, then yes.
Some I know see all these groups as _nations_, and part of the caucasian race.  
As one who says 'long live racial interbreeding' and 'up the mongrels' (mongrels like me), I'd say it's dangerous to get obsessed by all these issues of racial status/purity.


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## ernestolynch (Jun 23, 2004)

Funky_monks said:
			
		

> "Racially purer" eh, Ern?
> 
> Does this mean that someone from Rhyl is more "genetically pure" than someone from Pontyprydd?.



Duw duw duw.

The only pure thing Rhylians concern themselves with is their bags of smack!


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## Funky_monks (Jun 23, 2004)

Red Jezza said:
			
		

> If you regard the anglo-saxons as a race, and the Seppoes as a race by now, and the Franks, then yes.
> Some I know see all these groups as _nations_, and part of the caucasian race.
> As one who says 'long live racial interbreeding' and 'up the mongrels' (mongrels like me), I'd say it's dangerous to get obsessed by all these issues of racial status/purity.



Yes, but there are many French people who aren't 'Frankish' and many Americans who aren't Native Americans. And yes, I do find all this talk of race in this context mildly disturbing. Oh, and I'm very much a mongrel too (albeit one who's ancestors where all caucasian).


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## Pingu (Jun 23, 2004)

Funky_monks said:
			
		

> Does this mean that someone from Rhyl is more "genetically pure" than someone from Pontyprydd?




oh come on now... fairs fair.. probably a scouser if living in rhyl at this time of year anyhow. 

seeing as I am originally from Bae Cemaes I now feel quite smug.. in a welsh sort of way.

so whos up for a rumble then? we will drive our sheep south and you drive yours north and we can have a "battle of the flocks" in say... welshpool?


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## Funky_monks (Jun 23, 2004)

ernestolynch said:
			
		

> Duw duw duw.
> 
> The only pure thing Rhylians concern themselves with is their bags of smack!






			
				Pingu said:
			
		

> oh come on now... fairs fair.. probably a scouser if living in rhyl at this time of year anyhow.



I have a Rhylian mate who would probably resent being called a smackhead and a Scouser. I imagine he might decide to punch you in the face and nick your wallet upon being called either (note: this is not a serious comment).  

Eh! Eh! Calm down!


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## WasGeri (Jun 23, 2004)

I voted yes. 

So are the Cornish.


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## tom796 (Jun 23, 2004)

ernestolynch said:
			
		

> In the midlands - Powys  - you will find a hybrid of Cymry and some Mercian stock, from when Welsh raiders would kidnap the less-ugly women of Saxon race and take them back to breed.



*aaacchhhummm!* the mercians were *not* saxons, ern, but angles. really old chap, if you're going to play the game...


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## ernestolynch (Jun 23, 2004)

Angles, Saxons, all fucking big-nosed Krauts to me, boyo. Hairy-arse women and weak-chinned men!


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## Funky_monks (Jun 23, 2004)

Just to labout my original point pedantically and somewhat annoyingly. Both of these sporting personalities are Welsh. Are they of the same race?

1) 






2)


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## ernestolynch (Jun 23, 2004)

You're an English anyway aren't you fyncimyncs? Whassit to yee?


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## Pickman's model (Jun 23, 2004)

didn't tom jones sing something about the grass of home?

a song i'm sure TeeJay would appreciate.


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## Dr. Christmas (Jun 23, 2004)

*bangs head _off_ perspex screen*

TJ= Trolling Jizzstain....


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## ernestolynch (Jun 23, 2004)

For someone who denies the existence of 'races' he's pretty much a full-blown _rascist_ like his 'idiot' mate...


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## Pickman's model (Jun 23, 2004)

he has _mates_?


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## Dr. Christmas (Jun 23, 2004)

...ahh yes, the true blue middle england tory with the name of an american state....


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## Pickman's model (Jun 23, 2004)

someone who used to own a gardening tool?


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## ernestolynch (Jun 23, 2004)

I meant the eponymous idiot, the uncalm one...of the jasperite variety.


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## Dr. Christmas (Jun 23, 2004)

This thread's getting like Radio Free Europe before D-Day...

[Nasal RP voice]_'The Trolling Jizzstain will use a gardening tool to plough a Jasperite furrow in Middle England'_[/Nasal RP voice]


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## Pickman's model (Jun 23, 2004)

i'd a hoe?


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## Funky_monks (Jun 23, 2004)

ernestolynch said:
			
		

> You're an English anyway aren't you fyncimyncs? Whassit to yee?



Well, Ern, I am and English in that I was born in England. It all depends however on how you want to define race. If you go back to my grandparents and great-grandparents generations then I'm a mongrel made up of Irish, Welsh, German and English roots. Hence my point. Although I do concede it’s a point made on an idiotic thread almost certainly intended to troll. And possibly therefore the thread may need more talk of pitched battles between various herds of sheep to take place in Welshpool than serious debate as to whether nationality constitutes race.


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## Dr. Christmas (Jun 23, 2004)

The right implement there, pm.


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## ernestolynch (Jun 23, 2004)

Funky_monks said:
			
		

> Well, Ern, I am and English in that I was born in England. It all depends however on how you want to define race. If you go back to my grandparents and great-grandparents generations then I'm a mongrel made up of Irish, Welsh, German and English roots. Hence my point. Although I do concede it’s a point made on an idiotic thread almost certainly intended to troll. And possibly therefore the thread may need more talk of pitched battles between various herds of sheep to take place in Welshpool than serious debate as to whether nationality constitutes race.



Iawn boi, but them there Japs - are they a race? That there Teejay said I was a 'rascist' for talking about my Jap's Eye...so are they a race or a nation...is there a Welsh word for 'race' anyway? Cenedl means a nation.


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## jms (Jun 23, 2004)

Yes they are
they have enhanced vision
When they see English people, to them it looks like our foreheads are glowing
thats how they know we're English


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## oddjob (Jun 23, 2004)

ernestolynch said:
			
		

> I meant the eponymous idiot, the uncalm one...of the jasperite variety.



what the fuck does that mean


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## Dr. Christmas (Jun 23, 2004)

ernestolynch said:
			
		

> Iawn boi, but them there Japs - are they a race? That there Teejay said I was a 'rascist' for talking about my Jap's Eye...so are they a race or a nation...is there a Welsh word for 'race' anyway? Cenedl means a nation.



hiliol= rascist

hiliaeth= rascism


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## ernestolynch (Jun 23, 2004)

In its honour, I won't answer that question. (oddjob)


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## ernestolynch (Jun 23, 2004)

Dr. Christmas said:
			
		

> hiliol= rascist
> 
> hiliaeth= rascism



When was that put into the language, Dr C? Interested to know.


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## Funky_monks (Jun 23, 2004)

ernestolynch said:
			
		

> Iawn boi, but them there Japs - are they a race? That there Teejay said I was a 'rascist' for talking about my Jap's Eye...so are they a race or a nation...is there a Welsh word for 'race' anyway? Cenedl means a nation.



I dunno about wether or not the Japanese are a race, or a nation made up of various races? I'm not up on my history of the East. I'm not sure about a Welsh word for 'race' either as my Welsh aint that fantastic. What's the Welsh for the 'tribes' that you find round here (e.g. Cofis)? Would that roughly equate to 'race'? I wouldnt take that much notice of what TJ says, he's gone from simply being dull to a trolling dickhead (IMO).


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## ernestolynch (Jun 23, 2004)

How comes you're so sure then that the Welsh aren't a race, but you're not about the Japs? What about the Basques then? Or the Hottentots?


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## Dr. Christmas (Jun 23, 2004)

ernestolynch said:
			
		

> When was that put into the language, Dr C? Interested to know.



...dunno ern...it's been the word ever since I started taking an interest in the language in the late 90s. So, since at least 1997.


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## Dr. Christmas (Jun 23, 2004)

Funky_monks said:
			
		

> I wouldnt take that much notice of what TJ says, he's gone from simply being dull to a trolling dickhead (IMO).



ain't that the truth....


...I always thought 'Cofi' was the term for someone from Caernarfon. No?


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## Funky_monks (Jun 23, 2004)

ernestolynch said:
			
		

> How comes you're so sure then that the Welsh aren't a race, but you're not about the Japs? What about the Basques then? Or the Hottentots?



Because I know diddly squat about Japan. I'm guessing the Basques are a race, which kind of illustrates my point. They don't have a nation as such, do they (at least not 'officially')? And again I'm pretty sure there are many 'races' within the nation that is Wales, including all those which you mentioned in your previous post about the make-up of the genetics of various regions of Wales and various others who may have immigrated later, such as those of Italian, Afro-Carribean, Pakistani, Indian, etc etc (and of the races which may exist in those geographical areas) descent who can all call themselves 'Welsh'.


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## Streathamite (Jun 23, 2004)

there's a question lurking at the heart of this; what is the difference between a 'race' and a 'nation' - can anyone come up with a good explanation of the distinction?


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## Funky_monks (Jun 23, 2004)

Dr. Christmas said:
			
		

> ...I always thought 'Cofi' was the term for someone from Caernarfon. No?



It is, in essence. But the way it was explained to me by a person who lives there, is that to be a true 'Cofi' you and your family have to have lived inside the old city walls for as long as anyone can remember. Or something like that. I was quie drunk at the time. Maybe Ern can clarify more?


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## WasGeri (Jun 23, 2004)

Is it true that there is a Welsh language committee that meet to make up Welsh words for things that didn't exist previously?


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## Funky_monks (Jun 23, 2004)

Red Jezza said:
			
		

> there's a question lurking at the heart of this; what is the difference between a 'race' and a 'nation' - can anyone come up with a good explanation of the distinction?



That's what I was thinking. But I'm at a loss to come up with a coherent definition of either, as the two often appear to be intertwined. Perhaps they are less intertwined now than they ever have been throughout history.   

I realise this may seem hypocritical in the light of my assertation that the Welsh are not a race. But I certainly have met people in Wales who would argue strongly that they are Welsh, but also black or Asian (the first appearing to be a nationality, the second (possibly) a race).


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## Idaho (Jun 23, 2004)

'r ddeillia ydy atalnwyd a yn diddori hun. Whereas Cymru 'n ddiau has a 'n eglur a 'n arwyddocaol gwrteithia , dydy 'n anghywir at awgryma a 'na exists rhyw seperate cenedl. Amcanion chan nationhood gwisga t 'n sylweddol gofyn rhyw racial chyfiawnhad. 'n gyfryw chyfiawnhad would i mewn itself bod 'n fawr 'n anghywir yn ôl 'n ddiweddar hymchwil.


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## Strumpet (Jun 23, 2004)

*snigger*


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## Idaho (Jun 23, 2004)

Dr. Christmas said:
			
		

> ...ahh yes, the true blue middle england tory with the name of an american state....



You mean there's another true blue tory on the boards with the name of an american state? Oh.. you mean me don't you.

Hehehe... because I disagree with your political views eh? Well fair enough.


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## Idaho (Jun 23, 2004)

Strumpet said:
			
		

> *snigger*



'n chwith 'm Cymraeg ydy 'n amdlawd hyn ddiwrnodau. Amheua hunrhywun all ddeall 'i.


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## oddjob (Jun 23, 2004)

Geri said:
			
		

> Is it true that there is a Welsh language committee that meet to make up Welsh words for things that didn't exist previously?



well if they don't, someone else will


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## ernestolynch (Jun 23, 2004)

Idaho said:
			
		

> 'r ddeillia ydy atalnwyd a yn diddori hun. Whereas Cymru 'n ddiau has a 'n eglur a 'n arwyddocaol gwrteithia , dydy 'n anghywir at awgryma a 'na exists rhyw seperate cenedl. Amcanion chan nationhood gwisga t 'n sylweddol gofyn rhyw racial chyfiawnhad. 'n gyfryw chyfiawnhad would i mewn itself bod 'n fawr 'n anghywir yn ôl 'n ddiweddar hymchwil.



err...heinrich himmler????


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## TeeJay (Jun 23, 2004)

'r ddeillia ydy atalnwyd a yn diddori hun. Whereas Cymru 'n ddiau has a 'n eglur a 'n arwyddocaol gwrteithia , dydy 'n anghywir at awgryma a 'na exists rhyw seperate cenedl. Amcanion chan nationhood gwisga t 'n sylweddol gofyn rhyw racial chyfiawnhad. 'n gyfryw chyfiawnhad would i mewn itself bod 'n fawr 'n anghywir yn ôl 'n ddiweddar hymchwil.

http://www.tranexp.com:2000/InterTran/

' group I proceed he is being complex I go interesting self. Whereas Wales ' heartburn true ace I go ' heartburn clear I go ' heartburn significant I manure , he is being ' heartburn incorrect to I hint I go ' I do exists sex seperate nation. Purposes with nationhood I dress tower ' heartburn substantial ask sex racial justification. ' heartburn like justification would in itself be ' heartburn large ' heartburn incorrect according to ' heartburn recent research.



Sounds like he needs some Rennies!


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## RubberBuccaneer (Jun 23, 2004)

Don't we have this argument every 3 weeks?

I would say the Celts were a race, and we're part of that race.

There was a study done a few years back showing a predominance of blood group A in North Wales akin to the Iberian Peninsular.

There was also a programme on the Valleys that showed because of the periods of migration into Wales that Pontypridd was a very English town, something as a Cardiffian cheered me up no end.

In summary we all hate each other, the closer geographically the greater the hatred, but if you so much as dare slag any of our countrymen off, we're all Welsh and stick like glue. ( it works to a cetain extent for any Celtic country too )


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## Macabre (Jun 23, 2004)

ernestolynch said:
			
		

> What about all the Scots ginger nuts then ?



Thats because of a mutation, wereas I'm Scotish and have auburn hair which apparently means I've Viking blood in me.


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## red3k (Jun 23, 2004)

My great gran only spoke Welsh, my mum's just moved there from Bristol and says everyone is SO friendly in Wales. Most of the Welsh people I've met have been clubbing in Bristol and they're always really muntered - but nice.
I love 'em.


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## Idaho (Jun 23, 2004)

Macabre said:
			
		

> Thats because of a mutation, wereas I'm Scotish and have auburn hair which apparently means I've Viking blood in me.



We're all a mish-mash. The 'purest' human groups genetically (albeit a fundamentally flawed concept) are the Basques, Aboriginal Australians, certain central asians, Ainu of Japan and some tribes in Africa. Probably the rest of us on this board probably share common ancestors within 10 generations.


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## Idaho (Jun 23, 2004)

RubberBuccaneer said:
			
		

> I would say the Celts were a race, and we're part of that race.
> 
> There was a study done a few years back showing a predominance of blood group A in North Wales akin to the Iberian Peninsular.



Well that's settled it then 

Celtic is really an archeological reference point rather than any definition of genetics. It refers to similar styles of art, burial and other features predominating during a certain period across areas of europe.

Recent DNA studies have also shown that Sussex and Hampshire are as genetically 'celtic' as Wales and Cornwall!


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## Idaho (Jun 23, 2004)

TeeJay said:
			
		

> http://www.tranexp.com:2000/InterTran/
> 
> ' group I proceed he is being complex I go interesting self. Whereas Wales ' heartburn true ace I go ' heartburn clear I go ' heartburn significant I manure , he is being ' heartburn incorrect to I hint I go ' I do exists sex seperate nation. Purposes with nationhood I dress tower ' heartburn substantial ask sex racial justification. ' heartburn like justification would in itself be ' heartburn large ' heartburn incorrect according to ' heartburn recent research.
> 
> ...



Wtf! You need to get a better translator!


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## ernestolynch (Jun 23, 2004)

Idaho said:
			
		

> Well that's settled it then
> 
> Celtic is really an archeological reference point rather than any definition of genetics. It refers to similar styles of art, burial and other features predominating during a certain period across areas of europe.
> 
> Recent DNA studies have also shown that Sussex and Hampshire are as genetically 'celtic' as Wales and Cornwall!



No they haven't - unless you are treating Stormfront as a proper source, nazi-boy....


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## RubberBuccaneer (Jun 23, 2004)

> Recent DNA studies have also shown that Sussex and Hampshire are as genetically 'celtic' as Wales and Cornwall!



And why not?
It's reasonable.

Interested by the purity of the Basques considering how small and enclosed they are, you'd think only the most isolated could remain 'pure' ( and hence inbred )
hang on does that make European monarchies a race?


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## Funky_monks (Jun 23, 2004)

red3k said:
			
		

> My great gran only spoke Welsh, my mum's just moved there from Bristol and says everyone is SO friendly in Wales.



I've generally found this to be the case too. Going to Wales from the south of England is a bit like going back up North. It's nice isn't it?


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## TeeJay (Jun 23, 2004)

Idaho said:
			
		

> Wtf! You need to get a better translator!


Any suggestions?


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## Idaho (Jun 23, 2004)

ernestolynch said:
			
		

> No they haven't - unless you are treating Stormfront as a proper source, nazi-boy....



I don't really know where to start unpicking this moronic response. Calling someone 'nazi boy' is probably against the posting FAQs for starters. Secondly since when are Stormfront interested in declaring themselves Celts?

I suggest you take a night off from the sauce and clear your head.


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## Idaho (Jun 23, 2004)

RubberBuccaneer said:
			
		

> And why not?
> It's reasonable.
> 
> Interested by the purity of the Basques considering how small and enclosed they are, you'd think only the most isolated could remain 'pure' ( and hence inbred )
> hang on does that make European monarchies a race?



The suggestion from archeological and genetic data is that the Basques were a group that seperated off from the main emmigration from africa. Most of which went east. Eventually this eastern group returned and repopulated Europe but missed off the Basque country leaving them genetically relatively untouched.


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## ernestolynch (Jun 23, 2004)

You're always quoting shit which is straight from Tyndall circa 1975....


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## Strumpet (Jun 23, 2004)

red3k said:
			
		

> My great gran only spoke Welsh, my mum's just moved there from Bristol and says everyone is SO friendly in Wales. Most of the Welsh people I've met have been clubbing in Bristol and they're always really muntered - but nice.
> I love 'em.



And Wales loves you tooooooo red and funky


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## frogwoman (Jun 23, 2004)

NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Not the Celtic/Slavic/Saxon/Mediterrainean shit they love to endlessly tlak about on Stormfront. 

Please no. 

Next people will be wanting a "racial classifications forum". pleae dont let this happen. 
Its not just racist, its truyl truly sad and pathetic. 

Will you be looking at pictures of people from different countries - or celebs and saying "oh, his face looks rather nordic, but he has brachiocyphalic features, and could be 1/256ths mediterranean"?

Please, please spare me.....................

Anyone who has ever been on a fascist site will know what i am talking about. this classifications bullshit is beyond belief and truly tragic.


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## frogwoman (Jun 23, 2004)

lmao@anyone who's into that sort of thing.

Its like a racist's form of stamp collecting, except that stamp collecting can be remotely interesting sometimes...


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## tom796 (Jun 23, 2004)

Idaho said:
			
		

> Recent DNA studies have also shown that Sussex and Hampshire are as genetically 'celtic' as Wales and Cornwall!



if that's true, i'd be very surprised as hampshire was the heartland of wessex and sussex probably the oldest and most insular of the saxon kingdoms. i'd be really interested to see the evidence. any links idaho?


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## ernestolynch (Jun 23, 2004)

The BNP peddle this myth as part of their 'British race' bullshit.


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## oddjob (Jun 23, 2004)

frogwoman said:
			
		

> lmao@anyone who's into that sort of thing.
> 
> Its like a racist's form of stamp collecting, except that stamp collecting can be remotely interesting sometimes...




what  does that mean


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## Funky_monks (Jun 23, 2004)

Which bit do they peddle ern?


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## tom796 (Jun 23, 2004)

ernestolynch said:
			
		

> The BNP peddle this myth as part of their 'British race' bullshit.



and you'd never misquote, distort or outright lie to back up a spurious idea of racial purity would you ern?


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## ernestolynch (Jun 23, 2004)

The stuff about the Celts mixing in fully and accepting the Germanics...fits in nicely with their races=black or white issues....like what Lee Jasper does as well


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## Clintons Cat (Jun 23, 2004)

> what does that mean?



the catagorisation of people innit

Like rosenberg and his catergorisations of people based on caranium size as an indicator of racial purity


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## ernestolynch (Jun 23, 2004)

tom796 said:
			
		

> and you'd never misquote, distort or outright lie to back up a spurious idea of racial purity would you ern?



If I knew who the fuck you were I could reply - but you seem to be one of those 'rolleyes' twats.

  = the sign of a moron.


----------



## MightyAphrodite (Jun 23, 2004)

ive never met a welsh person who wasnt kind and considerate - and ive met quite a few. 
i dont know if theyre a serperate race. 
they are if they wanna be i suppose.


----------



## tom796 (Jun 23, 2004)

so what explanation would you give for the sudden disappearance of celtic culture from england (bar cumbria and cornwall) shortly after the germanic invasions?


----------



## tom796 (Jun 23, 2004)

ernestolynch said:
			
		

> If I knew who the fuck you were I could reply - but you seem to be one of those 'rolleyes' twats.



odd thing to say.



> = the sign of a moron.



 

(oops!)


----------



## ernestolynch (Jun 23, 2004)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/2076470.stm


----------



## Funky_monks (Jun 23, 2004)

ernestolynch said:
			
		

> The stuff about the Celts mixing in fully and accepting the Germanics...fits in nicely with their races=black or white issues....like what Lee Jasper does as well



Ah, so thats what makes them think they can stand in Wales and get away with it. Pricks.


----------



## ernestolynch (Jun 23, 2004)

tom796 said:
			
		

> so what explanation would you give for the sudden disappearance of celtic culture from england (bar cumbria and cornwall) shortly after the germanic invasions?



Ethnic cleansing, and a mass emigration of British refugees (who were Christians for their sins) westwards to escape the Germanic 'heathens'


----------



## ernestolynch (Jun 23, 2004)

Funky_monks said:
			
		

> Ah, so thats what makes them think they can stand in Wales and get away with it. Pricks.



Exactly, fynci!


----------



## oddjob (Jun 23, 2004)

ernestolynch said:
			
		

> The stuff about the Celts mixing in fully and accepting the Germanics...fits in nicely with their races=black or white issues....like what Lee Jasper does as well




yep

*bet is portugal*

edit: fuck, wrong mind


----------



## ernestolynch (Jun 23, 2004)

super bock me up


----------



## tom796 (Jun 23, 2004)

ernestolynch said:
			
		

> Ethnic cleansing, and a mass emigration of British refugees (who were Christians for their sins) westwards to escape the Germanic 'heathens'



so why does the evidence of place names suggest that many celtic bubbles remained alongside the invaders? and why were the celtic christians so successful in reconverting the angles (before augustine & co)? the picture you paint is pure romance.


----------



## Funky_monks (Jun 23, 2004)

But still, the Prydain are one of the many races that may call themselves Welsh, agreed? (Am I doing this to death now, if so, sorry   )


----------



## ernestolynch (Jun 23, 2004)

Some place names remained eg Pontefract, Thames (Tafwys), Dover (Dwfr), but not many. The last British place to hold out was Elmet (Elfed) in present day south Yorkshire. 

However how much British carried through into the English language? Fuck all. Explain that, GCSE-boy. The picture you paint is Anglocentric Yookay Nationalism.


----------



## tom796 (Jun 23, 2004)

interesting article ern, thanks, though i'm a little suspicious of blood of the vikings-esque history!   ps: the bit in the article about offa's dyke and ethnic cleansing is bollocks, as any cursory glance at the history of eighth century mercia will show. the interesting bit is, i think, the 'lost' period of the invasions themselves and the aftermath.


----------



## oddjob (Jun 23, 2004)

ernestolynch said:
			
		

> Ethnic cleansing, and a mass emigration of British refugees (who were Christians for their sins) westwards to escape the Germanic 'heathens'




can you explain that in 100 words please


----------



## ernestolynch (Jun 23, 2004)

Funky_monks said:
			
		

> But still, the Prydain are one of the many races that may call themselves Welsh, agreed? (Am I doing this to death now, if so, sorry   )



Welsh=Prydeinig.

Welsh is a Saxon insult given to the British. It means 'foreign slaves/vassals'. (Weallas).

Why am I arguing with this Tom chap btw who until an hour ago thought that the West Saxons were Celts?


----------



## tom796 (Jun 23, 2004)

ernestolynch said:
			
		

> Some place names remained eg Pontefract, Thames (Tafwys), Dover (Dwfr), but not many. The last British place to hold out was Elmet (Elfed) in present day south Yorkshire.



Few _major_ towns in England have Celtic place names, but plenty of smaller places do. I don't think Thames is Celtic. Or maybe it's romano-british. not sure...



> However how much British carried through into the English language? Fuck all. Explain that, GCSE-boy. The picture you paint is Anglocentric Yookay Nationalism.



the tiny influence of the celtic language on old english suits my argument of the surprising absence of celtic culture in early anglo-saxon england! (and i aint one of your students ern, so enough of the silly remarks please)


----------



## tom796 (Jun 23, 2004)

ernestolynch said:
			
		

> Why am I arguing with this Tom chap btw who until an hour ago thought that the West Saxons were Celts?



erm... what the fuck?


----------



## oddjob (Jun 23, 2004)

ernestolynch said:
			
		

> Some place names remained eg Pontefract, Thames (Tafwys), Dover (Dwfr), but not many. The last British place to hold out was Elmet (Elfed) in present day south Yorkshire.


----------



## ernestolynch (Jun 23, 2004)

tom796 said:
			
		

> Few _major_ towns in England have Celtic place names, but plenty of smaller places do. I don't think Thames is Celtic. Or maybe it's )



Thames is from Tafwys can't you read???

Name all your heap big plenty small places then, cowboy...


----------



## ernestolynch (Jun 24, 2004)

oddjob said:
			
		

>


http://www.kessler-web.co.uk/History/FeaturesBritain/BritishMap.htm


----------



## Funky_monks (Jun 24, 2004)

ernestolynch said:
			
		

> Welsh=Prydeinig.
> 
> Welsh is a Saxon insult given to the British. It means 'foreign slaves/vassals'. (Weallas).
> 
> Why am I arguing with this Tom chap btw who until an hour ago thought that the West Saxons were Celts?



Ok, I just put Prydain to avoud confusion over the word "Briton" (It could be taken, by some people as meaning anyone who lives in the modern day area that some people call Britain). I suppose I meant: "The Prydain (i.e. those who are descended from aincient Britons) are one of many races that, today can call themselves Cymraeg, no?"


----------



## tom796 (Jun 24, 2004)

in response to idaho's comment about the celtic ethnicity of hampshire i say



> if that's true, i'd be very surprised as hampshire was the heartland of wessex



i'm sorry i don't have the evidence to hand. i'll try and dredge up an article when i can.


----------



## tom796 (Jun 24, 2004)

> Welsh is a Saxon insult given to the British. It means 'foreign slaves/vassals'. (Weallas).



don't know which dictionary you're referring to - weallas = foreigners. i.e. cornwall is a conflation (correct me if i'm wrong) of the celtic word for themselves and the germanic name for them.


----------



## Funky_monks (Jun 24, 2004)

ernestolynch said:
			
		

> Some place names remained eg Pontefract, Thames (Tafwys), Dover (Dwfr), but not many. The last British place to hold out was Elmet (Elfed) in present day south Yorkshire.



In that case, are Llyndain, Caer (when it is used for Chester) and Briste Welsh translations of saxon words?


----------



## oddjob (Jun 24, 2004)

differing boundaries  

'there is no such thing as a nation' 

probably tony benn

edit: reading the handout


----------



## Stanley Edwards (Jun 24, 2004)

Interesting map. Dyfed AKA Demetia - is that wher the term Dementia derives from?

Genuine question. Know it could be taken the wrong way.


----------



## Macabre (Jun 24, 2004)

Although the classification of race through genetics is highly unfashionable for obvious reasons it does have a leg to stand on, dismissing it as racist doesn't negate the fact that it is there.  

Groups of people that breed together, usually because of separation of geographical, tend to have characteristic genetic mutations that are passed down.  But the racism behind it falls down because the differences are largely supperficial and the guidelines that the facists use to show that the Aryans are the master race actually show the Canadian Inuits to be the purest and most beutiful of man kind.


----------



## ernestolynch (Jun 24, 2004)

Funky_monks said:
			
		

> In that case, are Llyndain, Caer (when it is used for Chester) and Briste Welsh translations of saxon words?



No because those names were in use a thousand years before the Saxons came over from Germany for a weekend and decided to out-stay their welcome.

(The British king Gwrtheyrn (Vortigern) actually invited the Germans over to help fight against the Vikings, but being Germans as they are, they decided they like Britain and stayed here...centuries of British v English (German) wars followed)


----------



## Funky_monks (Jun 24, 2004)

ernestolynch said:
			
		

> No because those names were in use a thousand years before the Saxons came over from Germany for a weekend and decided to out-stay their welcome.
> 
> (The British king Gwrtheyrn (Vortigern) actually invited the Germans over to help fight against the Vikings, but being Germans as they are, they decided they like Britain and stayed here...centuries of British v English (German) wars followed)



So, is 'Chester' just a corruption of the word 'Caer' or is it Roman in origin? (I know this is slightly off topic). 


Must read more of my "A History of Wales", I'm only up to the Romans leaving......


----------



## oddjob (Jun 24, 2004)

*...*




			
				Macabre said:
			
		

> Although the classification of race through genetics is highly unfashionable for obvious reasons it does have a leg to stand on, dismissing it as racist doesn't negate the fact that it is there.
> 
> Groups of people that breed together, usually because of separation of geographical, tend to have characteristic genetic mutations that are passed down.




and you want your kids iq to be systemised sp

done


----------



## Clintons Cat (Jun 24, 2004)

Macabre said:
			
		

> Although the classification of race through genetics is highly unfashionable for obvious reasons it does have a leg to stand on, dismissing it as racist doesn't negate the fact that it is there.
> 
> Groups of people that breed together, usually because of separation of geographical, tend to have characteristic genetic mutations that are passed down.  But the racism behind it falls down because the differences are largely supperficial and the guidelines that the facists use to show that the Aryans are the master race actually show the Canadian Inuits to be the purest and most beutiful of man kind.




Yeah, but the range of genetic mutations inherent within a specific race far exceed any pecieved diferences between the races themselves.


----------



## ernestolynch (Jun 24, 2004)

Clintons Cat said:
			
		

> Yeah, but the range of genetic mutations inherent within a specific race far exceed any pecieved diferences between the races themselves.



Please explain further, include what you perceive to be _the races_.


----------



## Stanley Edwards (Jun 24, 2004)

ernestolynch said:
			
		

> Please explain further, include what you perceive to be _the races_.



Like Dementia perhaps? Those crazy welsh loony militants in the farthest SW corner?

_They're all mad!!!_


----------



## Funky_monks (Jun 24, 2004)

ernestolynch said:
			
		

> Please explain further, include what you perceive to be _the races_.



Aren't they held at Newbury, Ascot, Goodwood, Aintree, etc?


----------



## ernestolynch (Jun 24, 2004)

Stanley Edwards said:
			
		

> Like Dementia perhaps? Those crazy welsh loony militants in the farthest SW corner?
> 
> _They're all mad!!!_



It's not known as Little England for nothing.

(BTW try a Latin dick-shunary)


----------



## Clintons Cat (Jun 24, 2004)

sure i'm game,

The three major racial groups

Afro-Caucasian-Asian.

Usually catagorised as _races_ due to melolin content of skin pigmentation,hair type ect.


----------



## Clintons Cat (Jun 24, 2004)

which all goes to make the eugenic cobblers that follows DNA marking a bit redundent


----------



## Loki (Jun 24, 2004)

It's thought that the Vikings established up to 25 settlements in Wales, there are certainly plenty of placenames like "Anglesea" in Wales that derive from Old Norse. But it seems the viking settlers adopted the customs of their hosts rapidly and integrated and so didn't leave many clues... apart from the genetic evidence.


----------



## Funky_monks (Jun 24, 2004)

Loki said:
			
		

> It's thought that the Vikings established up to 25 settlements in Wales, there are certainly plenty of placenames like "Anglesea" in Wales that derive from Old Norse.



Isn't Anglesey just the English name for Ynys Mon?


----------



## oddjob (Jun 24, 2004)

Clintons Cat said:
			
		

> which all goes to make the eugenic cobblers that follows DNA marking a bit redundent



eugenics


----------



## ernestolynch (Jun 24, 2004)

Clintons Cat said:
			
		

> which all goes to make the eugenic cobblers that follows DNA marking a bit redundent



If you could spell melanin I'd be more inclined to take you seriously on this subject, however ****************


----------



## Corax (Jun 24, 2004)

Funky_monks said:
			
		

> Isn't Anglesey just the English name for Ynys Mon?



Ynes Mon = Isle of Man, I thought...?


----------



## Idaho (Jun 24, 2004)

Corax said:
			
		

> Ynes Mon = Isle of Man, I thought...?



No it's Anglesey - Black Island?


----------



## Idaho (Jun 24, 2004)

ernestolynch said:
			
		

> If you could spell melanin I'd be more inclined to take you seriously on this subject, however ****************



I doubt you would Mr Lynch. Anything that detracts away from your Welsh master race fantasy is quickly dismissed. What I can't work out is how this squares with your communist credentials. Was Stalin a Georgian nationalist?


----------



## Pingu (Jun 24, 2004)

Funky_monks said:
			
		

> So, is 'Chester' just a corruption of the word 'Caer' or is it Roman in origin? (I know this is slightly off topic).
> 
> 
> Must read more of my "A History of Wales", I'm only up to the Romans leaving......



the roman name for chester was Deva


this is actually becomming quite interesting.


----------



## Belushi (Jun 24, 2004)

I'm sure Im right in thinking that both 'Caer' and 'Chester' are corruptions of the Latin 'Caister'.


----------



## Pingu (Jun 24, 2004)

may well be ( I dont know any latin) but the roman name for chester was Deva ( dunno what this means either but a quick google should turn something up)


"The ancient settlement started out as the important Roman legionary fortress of Deva, safe in its loop of the River Dee. 

When the Romans left, three centuries later, the Saxons extended the walls down to the river to create a fortified town, or burh, against marauding Danes.

Following the Norman conquest of 1066, the first Earl of Chester built Chester Castle to dominate the Welsh border. By the Middle Ages, the city walls bristled with defensive towers and fortified gates. Until the estuary silted up, Chester was the largest trading port in northern England; and global trading brought affluence and influence to the city."


----------



## Clintons Cat (Jun 24, 2004)

ernestolynch said:
			
		

> If you could spell melanin I'd be more inclined to take you seriously on this subject, however ****************



oh boo fucking hoo,spelt a word wrong


----------



## Idaho (Jun 24, 2004)

Got this off a dodgy website! However it was legitimately printed in the Telegraph originally (oxymoronic as that sounds).

Refers to some research done by UCL. 



> Genetic survey reveals hidden Celts of England
> 
> JOHN ELLIOTT AND TOM ROBBINS
> 
> ...


----------



## Rollem (Jun 24, 2004)

i always thought there was only one race..................


----------



## TeeJay (Jun 24, 2004)

Separate and distinct "races" do not exist. Science shows that all human beings are descended from a common ancestor. There are many biological differences between people that are not taken into account by so-called "race" (for example, your blood type). The genetaic differences between people who are lumped into the same so-called "races" have actually been shown to be greater than the average genetic difference between their "group" and the other "groups" (eg so-called 'black' v. so-called 'white' v. so-called 'asian'). For example, the variation in blood types within specific "groups" is 94%, but the total variation between these "groups" is only 6%. Which kind of fucks all over the concept that there is actually anything scientifically or genetically meaningful about the so called separate "races". 

The truth is that the general public, including people like Ernesto, have been conditioned to viewing human races as natural and separate divisions within the human species based on visible physical differences. 

However science has now made it clear that human populations are not unambiguous, clearly demarcated, biologically distinct groups. Evidence from the analysis of genetics (e.g., DNA) indicates that most physical variation, about 94%, lies within *so-called* "racial" groups. Conventional geographic "racial" groupings differ from one another only in about 6% of their genes. This means that there is greater variation within "racial" groups than between them. In neighboring populations there is much overlapping of genes and their phenotypic (physical) expressions. Throughout history whenever different groups have come into contact, they have interbred. The continued sharing of genetic materials has maintained all of humankind as a single species.

To quote the American Anthropological Association Statement on "Race":

"Physical variations in any given trait tend to occur gradually rather than abruptly over geographic areas. And because physical traits are inherited independently of one another, knowing the range of one trait does not predict the presence of others. For example, skin color varies largely from light in the temperate areas in the north to dark in the tropical areas in the south; its intensity is not related to nose shape or hair texture. Dark skin may be associated with frizzy or kinky hair or curly or wavy or straight hair, all of which are found among different indigenous peoples in tropical regions. These facts render any attempt to establish lines of division among biological populations both arbitrary and subjective.

Historical research has shown that the idea of "race" has always carried more meanings than mere physical differences; indeed, physical variations in the human species have no meaning except the social ones that humans put on them...

"Race" ... evolved as a worldview, a body of prejudgments that distorts our ideas about human differences and group behavior. Racial beliefs constitute myths about the diversity in the human species and about the abilities and behavior of people homogenized into "racial" categories. The myths fused behavior and physical features together in the public mind, impeding our comprehension of both biological variations and cultural behavior, implying that both are genetically determined. Racial myths bear no relationship to the reality of human capabilities or behavior. Scientists today find that reliance on such folk beliefs about human differences in research has led to countless errors.

At the end of the 20th century, we now understand that human cultural behavior is learned, conditioned into infants beginning at birth, and always subject to modification. No human is born with a built-in culture or language. Our temperaments, dispositions, and personalities, regardless of genetic propensities, are developed within sets of meanings and values that we call "culture." Studies of infant and early childhood learning and behavior attest to the reality of our cultures in forming who we are." [ends]

I didn't start this thread because I believe in the concept of "race" - I started it because I wanted to see how many people on urban75 still think in terms of "race". I have been surprised as to how many people here do still believe in the false concept of separate races, even to the extent of thinking of people with Welsh and English ancestry as separate "races" - although obviously it is ambigious as to what people actually mean by the term "race".


----------



## TeeJay (Jun 24, 2004)

Rollem said:
			
		

> i always thought there was only one race..................


I agree. The human race.


----------



## Idaho (Jun 24, 2004)

From the Golstein research on the bbc Blood of the Vikings site:



> The results were interesting. England (and most of mainland Scotland) were a mixture of Angles, Saxons, Danish Vikings and Ancient Britons. The highest percentage of DNA signatures from the invading groups (Angles, Saxons and Danish Vikings) was found in the North and East of England. Interestingly the place with the highest 'invader input' was York, a well-known Viking settlement site.
> 
> There was one result in the North and East of England which did not fit this pattern. In Penrith a significant proportion of the men tested had Norwegian DNA signatures on their Y chromosomes. It seems likely that the Norwegian Vikings who travelled along the sea road from Shetland down to the Isle of Man may well have stopped off in Cumbria. It may also have been a safe haven for Vikings expelled from Dublin at the beginning of the 10th century. This finding fits in remarkably well with archaeological finds of Viking burials, Norse-style place-names and stone sculpture. The input of the Angles and Saxons, who arrived in England in the 5th century AD, were represented by DNA samples from Schleswig-Holstein and Northern Saxony respectively.
> 
> ...



Of course Goldstein and UCL have long been in league with Stormfront, so take their findings with a pinch of salt.


----------



## Idaho (Jun 24, 2004)

Rollem said:
			
		

> i always thought there was only one race..................



Famous bit of graffitti in Brighton - the original was written by some NF types and the add ons came later:

*One Race*_The Rat Race_
*One Nation*_Urination_

I still at times say that I'm going for a 'one nation'.


----------



## goldenecitrone (Jun 24, 2004)

TeeJay said:
			
		

> The truth is that the general public, including people like Ernesto, have been conditioned to viewing human races as natural and separate divisions within the human species based on visible physical differences.
> 
> However science has now made it clear that human populations are not unambiguous, clearly demarcated, biologically distinct groups.



Spot on, though you can see why people with a political agenda are going to find this a very troubling idea.


----------



## ernestolynch (Jun 24, 2004)

TeeJay said:
			
		

> Separate and distinct "races" do not exist. Science -


 zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz




			
				TeeJay said:
			
		

> - although obviously it is ambigious as to what people actually mean by the term "race".



Whu-wha-whuzzgoin on?   

*Unsubscribes from thread*


----------



## TeeJay (Jun 24, 2004)

What a fool.


----------



## ernestolynch (Jun 24, 2004)

TeeJay  
now has an ignore list :   
What a fool.


----------



## TeeJay (Jun 24, 2004)

You haven't left the thread? Well how about answering some of the points I have made. If you are having trouble with some of the details I will gladly try and find you some easy-to-understand links which explain about the science involved. However, since "race" is a socially constructed concept, maybe you don't think it is simply all about genetics anyway? (btw ernie I have taken you off my list because unlike many of the other muppets you actually make a lot of posts that are, for various reasons, worth reading)


----------



## ernestolynch (Jun 24, 2004)

Because you're an arse and you'll be crying by 4pm...


----------



## ernestolynch (Jun 24, 2004)

TeeJay said:
			
		

> (btw ernie I have taken you off my list because unlike many of the other muppets you actually make a lot of posts that are, for various reasons, worth reading)



Please put me back on your list....


----------



## TeeJay (Jun 24, 2004)

ernestolynch said:
			
		

> Because you're an arse and you'll be crying by 4pm...


Why will I be crying by 4pm. FWIW you have never made me cry ever Ernie, and you are deluding yourself if you think that I have taken you seriously enough for anything you say to upset me that much for a long time now. I kind of got over that after you started taking the piss out of my mental health and started accusing me of being a neo-nazi or whatever. I soon realised that you are a buffoon. However, I would still like to know what you understand by the term "race" and I would like to see what you have to say about the fact that 75% or so of people in Southern England have "Celtic ancestry" in terms of genetics. I can imagine that kind of fucks with your head a bit doesn't it, if you rerally do believe that being welsh or celtic or whatever is about 'genes' or 'blood'? If on the other hand it is really about culture, then it shouldn't be a massive problem for you. I would have thought that if you really do value welsh culture and its differences to english culture, you would be far better off admitting that "race" had nothing to do with it?


----------



## Idaho (Jun 24, 2004)

I really wouldn't worry about it Teejay. The best thing to do with Ernesto is to enjoy the sport of winding him up and savaging his flimsy grasp on logic, science, history, social skills, gardening, etc.


----------



## ernestolynch (Jun 24, 2004)

Idaho said:
			
		

> I really wouldn't worry about it Teejay. The best thing to do with Ernesto is to enjoy the sport of winding him up and savaging his flimsy grasp on logic, science, history, social skills, gardening, etc.



Shut it Tory boy. Bigots like you are on borrowed time.


----------



## TeeJay (Jun 24, 2004)

Idaho said:
			
		

> I really wouldn't worry about it Teejay. The best thing to do with Ernesto is to enjoy the sport of winding him up and savaging his flimsy grasp on logic, science, history, social skills, gardening, etc.


I have done that in the past and sometimes that all you can do, since he refuses to be serious or engage with any points at all. However the reason I have left it so late to actually contribute to this thread was so that he, and others, could set out their racial theories in a bit more detail, rather than just turn it into a silly slagging match immediately and lose any meaning ful or interesting debate under a deluge of insults, counter-insults and derailments.

It is worth looking at how many people have actually voted that they think the Welsh are a 'separate "race"', and how many people have supported this concept on this thread. Rather than shouting at each other or trying to accuse each other of being neo-nazis etc, isn't it worth trying to understand why people actually believe these things, and more specifically *what* they do actually believe? I don't think that any BNP-twats have crawled into this thread yet, there really is the basis of an interesting debate here. Ernie baiting will destroy any decent debate.


----------



## Idaho (Jun 24, 2004)

ernestolynch said:
			
		

> Shut it Tory boy. Bigots like you are on borrowed time.



Awww Ernest - now you've hurt my feewings.

Borrowed from whom? Tory Boy eh? I'll have you know I switched to UKIP


----------



## TeeJay (Jun 24, 2004)

Idaho said:
			
		

> Awww Ernest - now you've hurt my feewings.
> 
> Borrowed from whom? Tory Boy eh? I'll have you know I switched to UKIP


Will you two shut up with the school playground taunting and try and actually establish what you disagree about?

I don't believe there are such things as separate "races", but apparently most people in the UK think there are (although whether most people think the Welsh "qualify" as a separate "race" is more doubtful). The vast majority of these people are not what would be typically called "racist" - in that they think there are separate races but would probably say that everyone is equal and no race is better than any other. There are two issues:

1. Are there separate races?
2. Is everyone equal?

I take it that both of you, being fairly left-wing, agree that (2) everyone is equal. The issue we are discussing is (1).


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 24, 2004)

Do you not believe that there are seprate races teejay?


----------



## Idaho (Jun 24, 2004)

TeeJay said:
			
		

> Ernie baiting will destroy any decent debate.



Ernest himself routinely destorys any decent debate. He's very good at it. If your challenges start to hit home he either bails out or starts the insult/threat combo as in:



> Shut it Tory boy. Bigots like you are on borrowed time.



It's a good tactic on his part. It hints at a threat without being enough to call him out on. And it suggests that I am a supporter of the Conservative Party - in order to try and rally support against me. I only have a few options from here and most of them are not great. 


Go running to the mods saying Ernest is a meany - bad show and he hasn't done enough
Vehemently deny alliegence to the Tory Party! Hehehe - and get bogged down in that nonsense? Naah...
Try and pull the debate back on track with evidence - Already done it. In fact the info I gave comes from the exact same bit of research that he himself cited in the BBC article! Fat lot of good it did.
Bait him and throw his same tactics back at him - yeah that's more like it.

So Ernesto - was Stalin a Georgian nationalist?


----------



## reallyoldhippy (Jun 24, 2004)

ernestolynch said:
			
		

> Because you're an arse and you'll be crying by 4pm...


If you heard one of the kids at school say this to another, would you just let it go? Have you got a school bullying policy?


----------



## TeeJay (Jun 24, 2004)

butchersapron said:
			
		

> Do you not believe that there are seprate races teejay?


No. I don't believe separate and distinct "races" exist at all. I have already made that completely clear in my posts on this thread, including my last one:






			
				TeeJay said:
			
		

> ...I don't believe there are such things as separate "races"...


How about you butchersapron?


----------



## flimsier (Jun 24, 2004)

Teejay has me on ignore but not butchers!?


----------



## TeeJay (Jun 24, 2004)

Idaho and reallyoldhippy - if Ernie tries to derail the thread, don't let him or give into his tactics by reacting to them, otherwise you are giving him exactly what he wants. Just keep it on topic and keep exposing the flaws in his racial theories. If he tries to change the subject, don't go along with it. If he resorts to personal abuse or accusations, don't go along with it. If he breaches the faqs then report the post. But don't let him change the subject away from things he doesn't want to see debated.


----------



## reallyoldhippy (Jun 24, 2004)

butchersapron said:
			
		

> Do you not believe that there are seprate races teejay?


Do you? How many are there? How are they defined? Are the welsh a "race"?


----------



## flimsier (Jun 24, 2004)

TeeJay said:
			
		

> If he breaches the faqs then report the post.



Maybe I should have done this with another poster.


----------



## reallyoldhippy (Jun 24, 2004)

TeeJay said:
			
		

> If he breaches the faqs then report the post.


No way.


----------



## TeeJay (Jun 24, 2004)

flimsier said:
			
		

> Maybe I should have done this with another poster.


You said you didn't even want an apology.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 24, 2004)

TeeJay said:
			
		

> No. I don't believe separate and distinct "races" exist at all. I have already made that completely clear in my posts on this thread, including my last one:How about you butchersapron?


 No i don't believe that you believe in races either.

And i was referring more to the fact that you spent about a month letting everyone know that you didn't believe in races on all manner of threads now matter how unconnected to your hobby horse, quite recently, in the same manner as your recent bout of green-spamming.

And no, of course i don't believe in gentic races.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 24, 2004)

...and you've not quite managed to get behind what erns 'racial theories' are designed to do have you?


----------



## ernestolynch (Jun 24, 2004)

What does the Walsall Metropolitan Borough Council have to say on it I wonder?


----------



## Idaho (Jun 24, 2004)

butchersapron said:
			
		

> ...and you've not quite managed to get behind what erns 'racial theories' are designed to do have you?



To annoy people? To inspire the second coming? To bring about the dawn of a new age of man?


----------



## Idaho (Jun 24, 2004)

ernestolynch said:
			
		

> What does the Walsall Metropolitan Borough Council have to say on it I wonder?



Me too. Fhtang Ole Biscuit Barrel.


----------



## flimsier (Jun 24, 2004)

TeeJay said:
			
		

> You said you didn't even want an apology.



What happened to your ignore list? Did it even exist?


----------



## Hocus Eye. (Jun 24, 2004)

Idaho

You said "
Try and pull the debate back on track with evidence - Already done it. In fact the info I gave comes from the exact same bit of research that he himself cited in the BBC article! Fat lot of good it did."

Dont forget that there may be people reading the thread who do not get their hands dirty by posting.

I spotted that the UCL research you quoted was the same source as Ernestos.  I think it proved the conclusive argument and demolished the idea of races.

Ernesto did not go to the actual source but used the BBC report which had much less detail.  Nowhere in the article was the word 'race' used except in the title which referred to the English and Welsh being "races apart".  It was just a catchy headline.  

Moreover if you read only the BBC website version you might come to conclusions in favour of Ernesto whereas if you went to the source the opposite was the conclusion.

I suspect that Ern found the article by googling on the word "races" and he did not check the source or if he did was selective just as the writer of the origninal article was.  The BBC is no different to other media sources they simplify a story to make it eye catching.  It is a bit tough on the researchers.

I do not think that the concept of 'race' is very useful.  The genetic differences between different human groups are not important, just minor adaptations to different environments fed into heredity.  As populations move around more these are breaking up and new adaptations occur.

So I conclude by saying  to Idaho that your post _did _ make a difference and effectively won the debate.

Hocus Eye


----------



## ernestolynch (Jun 24, 2004)

Idaho said:
			
		

> To annoy people? To inspire the second coming? To bring about the dawn of a new age of man?



You're getting tedious now, you racist idiot. If I was a lunatic I'd have an ignore list and proclaim that you were on it.


----------



## Idaho (Jun 24, 2004)

butchersapron said:
			
		

> No i don't believe that you believe in races either.
> 
> And i was referring more to the fact that you spent about a month letting everyone know that you didn't believe in races...



The science behind the absence of any real notion of race is one of the most powerful tools to defeat racism. Makes me wonder why you are so luke warm on the issue.


----------



## ernestolynch (Jun 24, 2004)

I can tell the racial origins, going back to the grandparents, of posters by analysing their posting-styles.


----------



## TeeJay (Jun 24, 2004)

flimsier said:
			
		

> What happened to your ignore list? Did it even exist?


I think the last few posts have just proved to me the wisdom of having you and butchers on ignore. I did just take it off today on this thread because I was willing to believe that you might actually be trying to make some kind of contribution to the topic of the thread. However, I can see now that you just want to continue to behave like total arseholes.

*puts the two arseholes back on ignore*


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 24, 2004)

Idaho said:
			
		

> The science behind the absence of any real notion of race is one of the most powerful tools to defeat racism. Makes me wonder why you are so luke warm on the issue.


 Becaue, i'm  quite clearly one of them rascists aren't i - despite the bit of my post that you lopped off that said that i don't believe in the idea of genetic races either.


----------



## Idaho (Jun 24, 2004)

ernestolynch said:
			
		

> You're getting tedious now, you racist idiot. If I was a lunatic I'd have an ignore list and proclaim that you were on it.



Keep them coming Ernest. Surely you haven't been on the ales already? Tsk tsk.


----------



## Idaho (Jun 24, 2004)

butchersapron said:
			
		

> Becaue, i'm  quite clearly one of them rascists aren't i - despite the bit of my post that you lopped off that said that i don't believe in the idea of genetic races either.



Sozzer.. the Ernest-style is rubbing off on me. I withdraw the remark.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 24, 2004)

TeeJay said:
			
		

> I think the last few posts have just proved to me the wisdom of having you and butchers on ignore. I did just take it off today on this thread because I was willing to believe that you might actually be trying to make some kind of contribution to the topic of the thread. However, I can see now that you just want to continue to behave like total arseholes.
> 
> *puts the two arseholes back on ignore*


 How have i behaved like an arshole bluey - i asked you a question, you replied and asked me one in return which i immediately replied to. What a rotter i am.

*takes himself off teejays ignore list*


----------



## TeeJay (Jun 24, 2004)

ernestolynch said:
			
		

> You're getting tedious now, you racist idiot.


Ernesto, how do you define racism? You seem to have very weird ideas about race, so I am intrigued what you think racism is.


----------



## ernestolynch (Jun 24, 2004)

*Can't see someone's posts due to ignore list*
*Can still identify their racial origins*


----------



## Idaho (Jun 24, 2004)

ernestolynch said:
			
		

> *Can't see someone's posts due to ignore list*
> *Can still identify their racial origins*



(hands over ears) I'M NOT LISTENING... LA-DE-DAR-DEE-DOO-DAY


----------



## TeeJay (Jun 24, 2004)

ernestolynch said:
			
		

> *Can't see someone's posts due to ignore list*
> *Can still identify their racial origins*


So you think you can "see" someone's "racial origins" by the way they post on urban75? You have claimed this before, although last time when questioned on it further you changed your mind and said you were "just joking".


----------



## ernestolynch (Jun 24, 2004)

Yeah I'm analysing you right now, TJ!


----------



## Idaho (Jun 24, 2004)

ernestolynch said:
			
		

> Yeah I'm analysing you right now, TJ!



Look out TJ - he's drunk and horny


----------



## ernestolynch (Jun 24, 2004)

Idaho said:
			
		

> Look out TJ - he's drunk and horny


LOL Teejay and I'd a Hoe - the meanest, wittiest, funniest double act since Syd Little and Eddie Large.


----------



## Idaho (Jun 24, 2004)

ernestolynch said:
			
		

> LOL Teejay and I'd a Hoe - the meanest, wittiest, funniest double act since Syd Little and Eddie Large.



Now now Ernest - flattery will get you everywhere.


----------



## TeeJay (Jun 24, 2004)

ernestolynch said:
			
		

> Gogs are racially purer than the hwntwrs. On Ynys Mon you will find the purest Cymric race. On Lleyn the blood was mixed with Irish from Leinster (hence the name). Further East towards the Clwydian Range you will encounter a mixture of Pure Cymry and Brythonic refugees from Elmet and other Celtic nations over-run by the Hunnish invaders.
> 
> In the midlands - Powys  - you will find a hybrid of Cymry and some Mercian stock, from when Welsh raiders would kidnap the less-ugly women of Saxon race and take them back to breed.
> 
> ...


Any more racial theories to share with us Ernie?


----------



## TeeJay (Jun 24, 2004)

ernestolynch said:
			
		

> How comes you're so sure then that the Welsh aren't a race, but you're not about the Japs? What about the Basques then? Or the Hottentots?


Erneto - who are the Hottentots?


----------



## TeeJay (Jun 24, 2004)

ernestolynch said:
			
		

> The stuff about the Celts mixing in fully and accepting the Germanics...fits in nicely with their races=black or white issues....like what Lee Jasper does as well


Can you explain how the historical theory that celts, angles, saxons, jutes and norse all intermarried fits in with a theory of "separate races"?


----------



## TeeJay (Jun 24, 2004)

ernestolynch said:
			
		

> Because you're an arse and you'll be crying by 4pm...


It's 5pm and I'm still smiling ernie boy. You are obviously losing your touch.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 24, 2004)

TeeJay said:
			
		

> It's 5pm and I'm still smiling ernie boy. You are obviously losing your touch.


 You're crying inside feverish spam-boy and potential cheka agent - and you know it.


----------



## TeeJay (Jun 24, 2004)

And as for you butchertwat - whatever it is you are dribbling on about now, I don't care since you have deservedly gone straight back on the ignore list with your pathetic fucktard mates. If you want to talk to me then you'll have to wait for a few days and then I'll see if you have grown a brain. I kind of doubt it tho' although I am always willing to see if you have finally grown up, and will be checking up on your periodically. However, you few posts on this thread that I read were more than enough dribbly-shit for this week thank you very much. Now be a good chap and fuck off back under your stone.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 24, 2004)

TeeJay said:
			
		

> And as for you butchertwat - whatever it is you are dribbling on about now, I don't care since you have deservedly gone straight back on the ignore list with your pathetic fucktard mates. If you want to talk to me then you'll have to wait for a few days and then I'll see if you have grown a brain. I kind of doubt it tho' although I am always willing to see if you have finally grown up, and will be checking up on your periodically. However, you few posts on this thread that I read were more than enough dribbly-shit for this week thank you very much. Now be a good chap and fuck off back under your stone.


 Yes! 

What on earth is the point of ignoring someone if you then write a longer, more boring reply to the ignored post than that which you would have done if you'd read the post (which you have) - actually thinking about it, the content of the post would remain the same - crappy amateur splenetics. This ego driven logorheaa is really not healthy you know.


----------



## flimsier (Jun 24, 2004)

TeeJay said:
			
		

> I think the last few posts have just proved to me the wisdom of having you and butchers on ignore. I did just take it off today on this thread because I was willing to believe that you might actually be trying to make some kind of contribution to the topic of the thread. However, I can see now that you just want to continue to behave like total arseholes.
> 
> *puts the two arseholes back on ignore*



Errm, before today I hadn't posted on the thread you dick.

Oh, I forgot the celebration!


----------



## flimsier (Jun 24, 2004)

TeeJay said:
			
		

> And as for you butchertwat - whatever it is you are dribbling on about now, I don't care since you have deservedly gone straight back on the ignore list with your pathetic fucktard mates. If you want to talk to me then you'll have to wait for a few days and then I'll see if you have grown a brain. I kind of doubt it tho' although I am always willing to see if you have finally grown up, and will be checking up on your periodically. However, you few posts on this thread that I read were more than enough dribbly-shit for this week thank you very much. Now be a good chap and fuck off back under your stone.



What the fuck? This was a reply to a post you're claiming to ignore? Only a nutter would believe you've got either of us on ignore!

Can I have a reply like that please!


----------



## TeeJay (Jun 24, 2004)




----------



## flimsier (Jun 24, 2004)

That your reply to not seeing my message? Yeah right!


----------



## TeeJay (Jun 24, 2004)

And as for you flimsitwat - whatever it is you are dribbling on about now, I don't care since you have deservedly gone straight back on the ignore list with your pathetic fucktard mates. If you want to talk to me then you'll have to wait for a few days and then I'll see if you have grown a brain. I kind of doubt it tho' although I am always willing to see if you have finally grown up, and will be checking up on your periodically. However, you few posts on this thread that I read were more than enough dribbly-shit for this week thank you very much. Now be a good chap and fuck off back under your stone.


----------



## TinyCrendon (Jun 24, 2004)

.


----------



## reallyoldhippy (Jun 24, 2004)

*Not a dig - genuine question*




			
				butchersapron said:
			
		

> Becaue, i'm  quite clearly one of them rascists aren't i - despite the bit of my post that you lopped off that said that i don't believe in the idea of genetic races either.


Do you think that racists need to believe in an idea of genetic race? Do you think that racists hate the Irish, Gypsies (and Welsh) because of some idea of genetic purity? Do you think that many racists have such a rationality behind their racism? Or is it the "difference" that is abhorred rather than the "genetic difference"?


----------



## TeeJay (Jun 24, 2004)

adzp said:
			
		

> Is this serious?
> Are the Welsh/Japanese/Catalans/Scots/Basques/Jewish people/A.N. Other a `race`? No of course not. Is that a serious question?


I agree with you that the answer is "no". However, at the moment 25% of people have voted "yes", and I don't think we have had any ST**MF***T trolls voting either - judging from the fact that several long-term and left-wing posters have actually said on the thread itself they voted 'yes'.

You will see fom my posts in this thread that I definitely don't believe in the idea of so-called separate and distinct "races" at all.


----------



## Dr. Christmas (Jun 24, 2004)

Interesting point, hippy: for the more sinister 'intellectual' racists subjects such as phrenology and quack science such as 'racial hygiene' a la nazi germany give a veneer of 'academic credibility' to their prejudice.

The majority rationale I suspect is fear/hatred of the 'other', irrationally expressed..


----------



## TeeJay (Jun 24, 2004)

reallyoldhippy said:
			
		

> Do you think that racists need to believe in an idea of genetic race? Do you think that racists hate the Irish, Gypsies (and Welsh) because of some idea of genetic purity? Do you think that many racists have such a rationality behind their racism? Or is it the "difference" that is abhorred rather than the "genetic difference"?


Surely people can hate "the other" on the basis of:

* so-called "race" (eg appearance, skin, eye, hair colour etc)
* nationality/citizenship
* ethnicity (eg culture, language, religion, regional accent)
* culture/sub-culture/lifestyle choice
* random things that they decide to pick on - including gender, sexuality, disabilities for example.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 24, 2004)

reallyoldhippy said:
			
		

> Do you think that racists need to believe in an idea of genetic race? Do you think that racists hate the Irish, Gypsies (and Welsh) because of some idea of genetic purity? Do you think that many racists have such a rationality behind their racism? Or is it the "difference" that is abhorred rather than the "genetic difference"?


 No i don't - that was a direct reply to idahos now taken back attempt to place me in the racists camp - i argued nothing beyond the idea that genetic race doesn't exist. So ask someone else please.


----------



## Funky_monks (Jun 24, 2004)

So, TeeJay, given that 'race' does not exist in your mind, does this therefore mean that racism cannot exist? 

IMO, quite an interesting discussion about race and nationality was starting to emerge. Race and racism being quite an important issue, no? 

The discussion may perhaps have shed some light on how people sought to define race, which, yes, is a purley human concept based, until recently on phenotype. This was, of course until that you saw that the thread which you had started with clear intention to troll (probably to use as ammo against certain posters when they cry 'racist' in the face of xenophobic commments made about the Welsh). You then felt the need to destroy it with a massive cut and paste plagurism session which neither effectivley utilised nor attempted to add to any of the science in your sources, and then to resort to petty bickering, as seems to be the case of late. 

Actually got anything useful to add (which actually comes from you as oppose to plagurising off someone else)?

<edited to add: and which dosent involve you posting stupid pictures of livestock?>


----------



## Dr. Christmas (Jun 24, 2004)

Re: Chester: there is a welsh idiom, _cael Cwn Ci Caer_ , used to indicate having to get up very early. It literally means 'before the dogs of Chester'. This was because Chester was onew of those places where welshmen could be killed legally during daylight. hence A Welshman in Chester had to get up and leave before dawn to avoid the possible consequences.

_mae rhaid i fi codi cael cwn ci Caer 'fory_- I must get up very early tomorrow


----------



## TeeJay (Jun 24, 2004)

Funky_monks said:
			
		

> So, TeeJay, given that 'race' does not exist in your mind, does this therefore mean that racism cannot exist?


So-called separate "races" don't exist, but people can invent labels for themselves and other people based on physical appearances etc and claim that they therefore belong to a certain "race". When they then discrimate based on these false labels then that is racism.





> Actually got anything useful to add (which actually comes from you as oppose to plagurising off someone else)?


Yes: Fuck off, twat! And don't bother replying to that because guess what I am doing now...

*adds yet another dribbling arsehole to ignore list*


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 24, 2004)

I've seen someone else say that - be original at least bluey.

*bangs on door of plagiarists smelly and unclean flat*


----------



## ernestolynch (Jun 24, 2004)

I reckon I've got Teejay's racial origins pegged now. These last posts have been the final pieces in his eugenic jigsaw.

More later.


----------



## flimsier (Jun 24, 2004)

TeeJay said:
			
		

> And as for you flimsitwat - whatever it is you are dribbling on about now, I don't care since you have deservedly gone straight back on the ignore list with your pathetic fucktard mates. If you want to talk to me then you'll have to wait for a few days and then I'll see if you have grown a brain. I kind of doubt it tho' although I am always willing to see if you have finally grown up, and will be checking up on your periodically. However, you few posts on this thread that I read were more than enough dribbly-shit for this week thank you very much. Now be a good chap and fuck off back under your stone.



What was it you were saying about reporting posts?

Thing is, I wouldn't, you are too much entertainment.

I think he's flipped again!


----------



## ernestolynch (Jun 24, 2004)

Definitely ran out of tablets.  Poor Teejay.


----------



## flimsier (Jun 24, 2004)

TeeJay said:
			
		

> So-called separate "races" don't exist, but people can invent labels for themselves and other people based on physical appearances etc and claim that they therefore belong to a certain "race". When they then discrimate based on these false labels then that is racism.Yes: Fuck off, twat! And don't bother replying to that because guess what I am doing now...
> 
> *adds yet another dribbling arsehole to ignore list*



Do you think he thinks that pretending he's added to his ignore list upsets people?

Its funny how he pretends to ignore everyone who disagrees with him.


----------



## ernestolynch (Jun 24, 2004)

He is fucking great though isn't he!


----------



## NoEgo (Jun 24, 2004)

I'm glad that I'm not the only person on U75 who is perceived to ask silly questions....


----------



## flimsier (Jun 24, 2004)

ernestolynch said:
			
		

> He is fucking great though isn't he!



I think we should start a Teejay fan club! 

It'd be mental!


----------



## ernestolynch (Jun 24, 2004)

flimsier said:
			
		

> I think we should start a Teejay fan club!
> 
> It'd be mental!



Fucking loony idea!!!


----------



## flimsier (Jun 24, 2004)

ernestolynch said:
			
		

> Fucking loony idea!!!



OK, I was acting as a bit of a nutter!


----------



## Funky_monks (Jun 25, 2004)

Question: 

Have you actually got anything useful to add, which desn't involve you plagurising someone else?

Answer:




			
				TeeJay said:
			
		

> Yes: Fuck off, twat! And don't bother replying to that because guess what I am doing now...
> 
> *adds yet another dribbling arsehole to ignore list*




So, thats actually a 'no' then?


----------



## guinnessdrinker (Jun 25, 2004)

adzp said:
			
		

> Is this serious?
> Are the Welsh/Japanese/Catalans/Scots/Basques/Jewish people/A.N. Other a `race`? No of course not. Is that a serious question?
> 
> Why not read some stuff about `race`, start with New Scientist. There the general thought is that (after mapping the human genome) that race doesnt really exist. For example 3 out of 10 American black men are genetically `caucasian`. Homo sapiens (and indeed it seems Neanderthals with whom it seems increasingly likely that Homo Sapiens interbred with) have moved about the planet back and forth for up to 1m years (depending on your definition of Homo Sapiens) and at least 250,000. Thats a lot of time to move about, even by foot.
> ...



what do you mean by some black men being "genetically caucasian"? are they not "genetically african" as well? do you mean that they happen to have european blood in them?

what's this nonsense about these seven races around the world? do you mean general human phenotypes? race is not a biological concept.

and the catalans and basques are definitely not celtic, mate. try galicia, perhaps. and the catalans (the name came from the gothic invaders, but the population is of mediterranean origin) and the basques never went to ireland and england. indeed the basques are assumed to have stayed in their mountains for thousands of years and their language is unique in the world, never mind not being indo-european. 

do read up.


----------



## flimsier (Jun 25, 2004)

Funky_monks said:
			
		

> So, thats actually a 'no' then?



Why use one word when you can cutnpaste five hundred?


----------



## Idaho (Jun 25, 2004)

guinnessdrinker said:
			
		

> and the basques never went to ireland and england. indeed the basques are assumed to have stayed in their mountains for thousands of years and their language is unique in the world, never mind not being indo-european.



The basques are a fascinating exception to just about everything to do with human migration and development out of africa. And quite so - they predate the 'celts' by tens of thousands of years.


----------



## Belushi (Jun 25, 2004)

Basques and Celts


----------



## guinnessdrinker (Jun 25, 2004)

Belushi said:
			
		

> Basques and Celts



interesting link, but what it says, really, is that when the celts invaded Britain, they took over existing populations posibly genetically related to the basques and bred with them. the celts moved to western europe 2500 to 3000 years ago, the basques are said to be so separate from other european people that it may have been 40000 years ago that genetic differences started to occur. sounds to me that it is going back to the time when the first Cro Magnons arrived and beat the shit out of the Neanderthals. there is a theory out there, actually, that a few neanderthals managed to breed with the sapiens. ernie is the nearest proof we have of that theory.


----------



## Idaho (Jun 25, 2004)

> "But we also noticed that there's something quite striking about the Celtic populations, and that is that there's not a lot of genetic variation on the Y-chromosome," he said.



Arf arf...

All the evidence given throughout this thread has come form the exact same bit of research. It will be interesting in a few years time when there are more studies out there to compare with.


----------



## TeeJay (Jun 25, 2004)

If people were *really* serious about this subject rather than being far more interested in tribalistic/nationalistic flag-waving then wouldn't they be interested in studies on populations all over the world? If you divided the global population up into "Welsh-sized" groups (c.3 million iirc) you'd have over 2000 of them.

I am reminded slightly of the Japanese (Shinto) creation myth with the Ni-Hon-Jin (lit. True/original-Sun-People) being created when Ameratsu - the sun goddess - dipped her spear into the ocean and formed Japan. This story says that they are the 'original humans'. Everyone else is a "Gai-Jin" (outside-person). Many cultures have their own equivalent foundation or creation myth that places them at the centre of the universe or proposes some divinely-inspired or prestigous origins for their 'people/nation'. 

You don't get many which say "we are all just a mish-mash of intermarriage, migration and borrowed culture, and really there isn't anything special or unique about us at all". It seems that even some scientists are still pandering to national boundaries, asking questions that bound by preconcieved identities and using the language of so-called "race" (or this might just be the BBC journalist?). I think you will see some far more serious research happening as the human genome project starts to be used for medical applications and is rolled out internationally. There will be no demand for romanticised and pre-determined boxes based on historical and national/cultural myths as health systems and reseachers in each country will simply want to know the genetic profile of their target population, for medical purposes. They won't be trying to prove or disprove some bogus or politically-charged rewriting of the history books or be having tenuous arguments over national/cultural identity being linked to genetics.


----------



## ernestolynch (Jun 25, 2004)

Are you a Nipponese? (Nip for short)


----------



## RubberBuccaneer (Jun 25, 2004)

If we're not a seperate race how come we look like this?


----------



## TeeJay (Jun 25, 2004)

Too many drugs?


----------



## ernestolynch (Jun 25, 2004)

I believe that the Celts are a seperate race from all the others. Scientists have proven that the IQ of Celts is on average 20% higher than other races. This can even be passed on to half-Celts and quatro-Celts. 

The purest of Celts would be located in the western-most parts of Wales, Scotland, Ireland, Cornwall, Breizh and Galicia. 

It is reported that the Celtic Race is as close to perfection as is possible.


----------



## chieftain (Jun 25, 2004)

ernestolynch said:
			
		

> I believe that the Celts are a seperate race from all the others. It is reported that the Celtic Race is as close to perfection as is possible.



I bet you're a ginger arent you ernestolynch?


----------



## ernestolynch (Jun 25, 2004)

*Proof of Celtic Superiority*






Knightley is half-Celt, as you can see in her face.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 25, 2004)

The ugly half  - the half in shadow?


----------



## ernestolynch (Jun 25, 2004)

A pure Celt this time, notice the unique features...


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 25, 2004)

That dippy studen,t vaguely staring into space and thinking deep thoughts, must be RW...


----------



## ernestolynch (Jun 25, 2004)

A Pure Celt of Irish descent


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 25, 2004)

Not gonna argue with that one.


----------



## chieftain (Jun 25, 2004)

all famously flat chested though??


----------



## ernestolynch (Jun 25, 2004)

Another 100% Celt, this time half Welsh half Irish.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 25, 2004)

You referained from the Bonnie Tyler one for this example then -would've been more represebtative though.

Got any shaky ones for the pure south wales male?


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 25, 2004)

"half Welsh half Irish."

100% airbrush and computer program.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 25, 2004)

Pure male celt - he's only got 7 eyelashes!


----------



## TeeJay (Jun 25, 2004)




----------



## butchersapron (Jun 25, 2004)

Oi, that's their town mayor you're jeering at.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 25, 2004)

OI, that's thei town mayor you're jeering at.


----------



## chieftain (Jun 25, 2004)

*more pure blooded beautys here*

cant get the ruddy pictures on


----------



## TeeJay (Jun 25, 2004)

"The largest ethnic group of signatories (16 in all) on the original draft of the American Declaration of Independence were Welsh! Thomas Jeffersons' family who came from Snowdonia spoke Welsh too!"

Richard Amerik was a Welshman based in Bristol as a British customs official. Amerik invested in the explorations of John Cabot, who arrived in the 'New World' in 1497, becoming the first recorded European to do so. This predates the Amerigo Vespucci claim. The name "Amerik" would have appeared on maps and documents used by these early adventurers, those used by Vespucci too.

So now we know who to blame.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 25, 2004)

You, you boring cunt!


----------



## RubberBuccaneer (Jun 25, 2004)

Its been corrupted by WASPs since its foundation as a break away to King George.


----------



## TeeJay (Jun 25, 2004)




----------



## butchersapron (Jun 25, 2004)

*bans teejay*

You know the rules.


----------



## redsquirrel (Jun 25, 2004)

I hardly think it's an insult to Wales to have Pete Townsend coming from there. (Tho I never knew he was Welsh).


----------



## TeeJay (Jun 25, 2004)

redsquirrel said:
			
		

> I hardly think it's an insult to Wales to have Pete Townsend coming from there. (Tho I never knew he was Welsh).


Insult? Wasn't this a "beautiful Welsh people" appreciation thread? Or a "spot the non-Celt" competition?

Pete Townsend had a Welsh father btw.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 25, 2004)

You're banned weirdo - i'll not tell you again...


----------



## TeeJay (Jun 25, 2004)

I just want to let butcherstwat that I have him on ignore so if he is dribbling at the mouth with abuse aimed at me (I have a senaky sixth sense that he is) he might as well give it up because I am not interested in anything the moron has to say about anything.


----------



## redsquirrel (Jun 25, 2004)

TeeJay said:
			
		

> I just want to let butcherstwat that I have him on ignore so if he is dribbling at the mouth with abuse aimed at me (I have a senaky sixth sense that he is) he might as well give it up because I am not interested in anything the moron has to say about anything.


Then why are you posting about it?


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 25, 2004)

I also have a 'senaky sixth sense' that tells me that you're reading my posts - stop doing it and stop telling people that you're not doing it you boring old rubber.


----------



## TeeJay (Jun 25, 2004)

The email notification means that a preview appears in Outlook, and despite having certain arseholes on ignore and despite doing my best to not bother reading any email notifications that say they come from these people, I do sometimes catch sight of my username in some of these posts. Sometimes I also use the "view this post" button in a thread when someone posts as a one off *if* it makes it easier to follow a thread or debate that is going on. The reason I am telling everyone that I am ignore this dribbling arsehole is by way of any kind of reply to their shite. I don't want to talk to them since they are proved themselves not worthy of even being given any time or attention due to being utter twats and using this forum simply for moronic personal abuse instead of intelligent debate.


----------



## RubberBuccaneer (Jun 25, 2004)

Every race has a 'lost tribe',
here's ours  
http://www.kodie.demon.co.uk/mandan.htm


Conflict of interest declared ....Welsh twat


----------



## ernestolynch (Jun 25, 2004)

TeeJay said:
			
		

> The email notification means that a preview appears in Outlook, and despite having certain arseholes on ignore and despite doing my best to not bother reading any email notifications that say they come from these people, I do sometimes catch sight of my username in some of these posts. Sometimes I also use the "view this post" button in a thread when someone posts as a one off *if* it makes it easier to follow a thread or debate that is going on. The reason I am telling everyone that I am ignore this dribbling arsehole is by way of any kind of reply to their shite. I don't want to talk to them since they are proved themselves not worthy of even being given any time or attention due to being utter twats and using this forum simply for moronic personal abuse instead of intelligent debate.



Send in the men in white coats!!!!


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 25, 2004)

*tries new pills*


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 25, 2004)

**banned**


----------



## past caring (Jun 25, 2004)

I'm feeling all left out......

How do I get on this famous ignore list?

Got to say TearJerker, that last one was top stuff.

"No, really everybody, I _really, really_ am ignoring them. I know it _looks_ like I'm an utter blusterer and psychologically dependent on the attention - but see, it's that bastard Bill gates wot done it!!!"

Will that do?


----------



## reallyoldhippy (Jun 25, 2004)

how old are you lot?


----------



## flimsier (Jun 25, 2004)

Has Teejay finally gone mad?


----------



## flimsier (Jun 25, 2004)

past caring said:
			
		

> I'm feeling all left out......
> 
> How do I get on this famous ignore list?
> 
> ...


 

No I am, and whatever they just said (even though it might not be about me I suspect it is) is obviously bollocks because they are all twats and I know that's gonna bother them.

Don't ban him, its entertainment!


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 25, 2004)

*unbanned*...for now...


----------



## guinnessdrinker (Jun 25, 2004)

ernestolynch said:
			
		

> I believe that the Celts are a seperate race from all the others. Scientists have proven that the IQ of Celts is on average 20% higher than other races. This can even be passed on to half-Celts and quatro-Celts.
> 
> The purest of Celts would be located in the western-most parts of Wales, Scotland, Ireland, Cornwall, Breizh and Galicia.
> 
> It is reported that the Celtic Race is as close to perfection as is possible.



so, that statement must make you a rascist. just try replacing the word "celt" with the word "aryan".


----------



## ernestolynch (Jun 25, 2004)

guinnessdrinker said:
			
		

> so, that statement must make you a rascist. just try replacing the word "celt" with the word "aryan".



It's quotes like the above that keep me going!


----------



## JWH (Jun 25, 2004)

LOL!bollocks shite and mung beans


----------



## pbman (Jun 25, 2004)

ernestolynch said:
			
		

> It's quotes like the above that keep me going!



WTF if they so smart, why did they get their ass kicked back into the backwater of the nation?

They must be really frail then, with skinny arms that can't swing a sword, or something.

You shure you want to go down this road?

ROFLMAO


----------



## ernestolynch (Jun 25, 2004)

pbman said:
			
		

> WTF if they so smart, why did they get their ass kicked back into the backwater of the nation?
> 
> They must be really frail then, with skinny arms that can't swing a sword, or something.
> 
> ...




    
i am a legend!!!!!!!!!


----------



## pbman (Jun 26, 2004)

ernestolynch said:
			
		

> i am a legend!!!!!!!!!



With scrawny arms apperently.

Anywasy it look like you guys got you ass kick fair and square, why you whinning about it 1,000 years latter?


----------



## past caring (Jun 26, 2004)

I wouldn't say too much pal - not given the way your mob are getting your arses kicked _right now_.........


----------



## pbman (Jun 26, 2004)

past caring said:
			
		

> I wouldn't say too much pal - not given the way your mob are getting your arses kicked _right now_.........



O come on, if we were loosing no one here would complain.


----------



## ernestolynch (Jun 26, 2004)

You're winning in Iraq? Why are you begging for help then?


----------



## TeeJay (Jun 26, 2004)

past caring said:
			
		

> I'm feeling all left out......
> 
> How do I get on this famous ignore list?
> 
> ...


Is this post aimed at me?


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jun 26, 2004)

*Please Note*

Okay - while a bit of knockabout "robust debate" is one thing, these pointed references to "men in white coats", taking pills etc are beyond the pale.

I believe this has been mentioned before. Taking the piss out of personal issues like that is not on.

Kindly don't do it.

Thank you.


----------



## pbman (Jun 26, 2004)

ernestolynch said:
			
		

> You're winning in Iraq? Why are you begging for help then?




Election stratagy.


----------



## past caring (Jun 26, 2004)

FridgeMagnet said:
			
		

> Okay - while a bit of knockabout "robust debate" is one thing, these pointed references to "men in white coats", taking pills etc are beyond the pale.
> 
> I believe this has been mentioned before. Taking the piss out of personal issues like that is not on.
> 
> ...



Nobody is taking the piss out of TJ because of any past mental health problems he may have had. What people are referring to is _current_ behaviour - which is a little odd to say the least. This has included publicly proclaiming (ad nauseum) that he has certain posters "on ignore" when he's been (relatively mildly) challenged on some of his claims/arguments.

Frankly, he gives as good as he gets in terms of personal abuse........


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jun 26, 2004)

In that case, I'm sure the ingenuity of posters here will stretch to formulating comments referring to their opinion of TeeJay's current behaviour that don't also make reference to past issues.

I don't want to drag this out but even apart from this instance I don't think it helps create a very good atmosphere in general, on a board where a number of people have had similar problems. That sort of reference may be appropriate when applied to someone without a history (or may not be - something that's been debated at length not too long ago) but when there is one, it starts to look unpleasantly pointed.


----------



## past caring (Jun 26, 2004)

I'm _really_ not trying to be awkward here - just trying to be sure I've understood you. You're saying that if he behaves/posts in a way that's irrational, we shouldn't say "that's mad", "are you on drugs or something?", "that's totally out of touch with reality" and so forth?


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jun 26, 2004)

It's obvious mental health references like "men in white coats" and "forgotten to take your pills" etc that are the problem.


----------



## pbman (Jun 26, 2004)

past caring said:
			
		

> Nobody is taking the piss out of TJ because of any past mental health problems he may have had. What people are referring to is _current_ behaviour - which is a little odd to say the least. This has included publicly proclaiming (ad nauseum) that he has certain posters "on ignore" when he's been (relatively mildly) challenged on some of his claims/arguments.
> 
> Frankly, he gives as good as he gets in terms of personal abuse........



WEll a lot of people are going after him, from what i've seen, when that happnes you have to fight back, any witch way you can.

I like talk to the hand myslef.  

And i never heard any thing about any past issues, if thats the case, show some decency.


----------



## past caring (Jun 26, 2004)

Yeah - a lot of people are. But much like your case, it's because of the _shit_ that's spouted, rather than awful people being nasty.

See, much like _real life_ (or much like in the case of your and TurdJid's postings), where a diverse group of people, who in other circumstances wouldn't normally agree with one another, are _all_ telling you that you're spouting bollocks, most sensible people would have pause for thought.

Not you and TJ. Although from different political perspectives, there's a certain symbiosis in your responses. You? You bash yourself over the head one more time with the butt of your Colt Python, put fingers to keyboard and plough on regardless.

And "Lofty" TeeJay? The virtual equivalent of sticking his fingers in his ears, poking his tongue out and shouting "Ner, ner, ner, neh-neh". And when that doesn't work? Runs to teacher and says "All the other children are being _nasty_ to me - make them _stop it!_".

"Why do whisper, green grass? 
Why tell the trees what ain't so?
Whispering grass, the trees don't have to know, no, no"


----------



## TeeJay (Jun 26, 2004)

past caring said:
			
		

> And "Lofty" TeeJay? The virtual equivalent of sticking his fingers in his ears, poking his tongue out and shouting "Ner, ner, ner, neh-neh". And when that doesn't work? Runs to teacher and says "All the other children are being _nasty_ to me - make them _stop it!_".


So past caring, is it better for me to take on people head on and trade their abuse with them, blow-for-blow? Or is it better to try and ignore them and not descend into the gutter and drag the whole forum into a 24-hour slag-fest of vile abuse? Do you think that abusing people on the basis of gender, sexuality, "race", ethnicity, disability and so forth is acceptable? Is that really the kind of place you want urban75 to be? It is true that I have got really pissed of recently by the lies, abuse and sectarian in-fighting, and I obviously a fair number of P&P posters hate my guts after the run up to the recent elections - all this abuse can be traced entirely to a small clique of anarchist and far-left posters who hate anyone who dares step into "their" UK P&P forum and voice any kind of alternative to their "class struggle" dieologies. I am also not the only Green Party supporter who has been lied about and subjected to personal abuse by ideologues who seek to hound out and wear done anyone who they see as a threat to their monopoly on spamming P&P. 

Anyway, if this really is the kind of place you want urban75 to be, can I suggest that you go and find yourself a sewer to go and swim in, and excuse me if I do *not* join you there.


----------



## Corax (Jun 26, 2004)

To be fair though Teej (and I have *so* not gotten involved in the petty squabbling, so please don't take this the wrong way) you _*do*_ bang on about it a bit.

Can you not let it lie, and hope that others get bored?  I don't mean discontinuing your posts about the issues at hand, but just ignoring anything that you consider insulting for a bit.  After all, it seems fairly clear that the intention most of the time is to get a reaction out of you.

It's got out of hand, and I, for one, am tired of trawling through the bitching to try and find the _real_ content.

Again, I'm *not* taking either side on this.  It seems that it's a P&P fight, and I'm not a frequent visitor there.  It has taken on a life of its own now though, and is swamping other forums.


----------



## TeeJay (Jun 26, 2004)

Corax said:
			
		

> Can you not let it lie, and hope that others get bored?  I don't mean discontinuing your posts about the issues at hand, but just ignoring anything that you consider insulting for a bit.  After all, it seems fairly clear that the intention most of the time is to get a reaction out of you.
> 
> It's got out of hand, and I, for one, am tired of trawling through the bitching to try and find the _real_ content.
> 
> Again, I'm *not* taking either side on this.  It seems that it's a P&P fight, and I'm not a frequent visitor there.  It has taken on a life of its own now though, and is swamping other forums.


I agree it's got out of hand and I am also tired of completely pointless and off-topic abuse. I do not go through urban75 throwing abuse at people who I hate but I admit I have been guilty of reacting to it when it is thrown at me, and maybe this is the wrong way to react. However, I am not going to be hounded off any forum - including UK P&P by people who don't care how low they stoop to piss people off. I believe in debating the issues and showing at least a minimum amount of respect even to people who I completely disagree with. However there are a small and extreme clique of people here who will do or say anything that they think they can get away with to attack people they disagree with, and they will specifically target people who they feel are 'problems' for them. Up until now most of this poisonous stuff has been flying between the various groups of 'anarchists', SWP members and other parties/groups and despite me being on urban75 for ages and saying very similar kinds of things for all this time, it was only as soon as I started promoting a Green Party 'line' on things rthat the attacks started. I amk sure that they are deliberately entended to try and make me so upset that I wil stop posting, and is a typical extremist and anti-democratic tactic used by many of these groups in a lot of situations - be it meetings, within their own organisations or anywhere else that they think that bully-boy tactics, personal abuse and out-and-out lies will help them achieve the aims.


----------



## Dr. Christmas (Jun 26, 2004)

TeeJay said:
			
		

> 1.Do you think that abusing people on the basis of gender, sexuality, "race", ethnicity, disability and so forth is acceptable? Is that really the kind of place you want urban75 to be?
> 
> 2.It is true that I have got really pissed of recently by the lies, abuse and sectarian in-fighting, and I obviously a fair number of P&P posters hate my guts after the run up to the recent elections - all this abuse can be traced entirely to a small clique of anarchist and far-left posters who hate anyone who dares step into "their" UK P&P forum and voice any kind of alternative to their "class struggle" dieologies.
> 
> 3. I am also not the only Green Party supporter who has been lied about and subjected to personal abuse by ideologues who seek to hound out and wear done anyone who they see as a threat to their monopoly on spamming P&P.



This truly is breathtakingly sanctimonious humbug.

1. Personally, no, and I doubt many other u75ers do either. What's your point?

2. I too am a supporter of a 'mainstream' democratic party. Jesus, joining the Scottish Greens is a potential option for me when I move back there. Since I joined here I've had endless arguments with the posters you allude to (and let's have a little bit of fucking backbone and name them- ernestolynch, butchersapron, past caring, rednblack, flimsier, doubtless there are others currently on your ever-shifting 'ignore' list) about the electoral system, trade union things, political nationalism, political/class demographics and so on. At the end of the day you've got to have the confidence in your arguments and see it through, even if you don't win them round to their point of view. You earn respect by arguing a position cogently even if its light years away from what you perceive as the 'mainstream' P & P view. That forum is an antagonistic bearpit at the best of times and you will insist on making it worse for yourself by having childish tanturms and filling up half a dozen posts with updates to your ignore list at the first sign of trouble. Your attempt to present yourself as some kind of 'alternative' martyr hounded out by an anarchist mainstream is pathetic and frankly, gut-wrenching.

Oh, and your comment on 'spamming' the forum is fucking comic genius- this from the man without an original thought of his own, and utterly reliant on reams of C&P from the Green Party website and sundry on-line academic bibliographies, on topics as diverse as regional policy and horse dung.

3. Again this is self-pitying claptrap. I can think of other Greens- including Matt S- who were actively congratulated on political achievements and praised for their honesty in analysis of political problems that the party faces. (such as in the Leeds thread). 

You, on the other hand, are widely regarded as deceitful (schools thread where you were caught out lying in a major way), irritating, (your much-vaunted ignore list is now seen as a joke more than anything though), hypocritical, (i.e. in spite of your complaints about bullying/trolling this thread is yet another recycling of your favoured 'are the Welsh a race' theme, started as little more than a shit-stirring troll) peevish, lacking in credibility, and balefully unoriginal (reams of C & P prefaced by the disclaimer 'I am not a Green Party member'). 

On this board people only have typed thoughts to go on. I've no idea who you are or what you do other than what you write on here. It's that that's causing the problem and it's about time you recognised it and did something about it.

I'm all for taking personal responsibility for one's actions. Yes you've taken a lot of flak this week. Yes some of it has been out of order (including the 'boring twat' ephitet I fired at you in sheer frustration the other day).

But, No, it's not everyone else's fault. You're largely the architect of your own present difficult position and only you can really do anything about that to be honest.


----------



## ernestolynch (Jun 26, 2004)

What a very open, honest and downright spot-on post, Doc. Chwarae teg.


----------



## TeeJay (Jun 26, 2004)

Just one little gem from your list of my supposed "crimes"






			
				Dr. Christmas said:
			
		

> You, on the other hand, are widely regarded as deceitful (schools thread where you were caught out lying in a major way)


On a thread about schools in general I was asked where I went to school and I told everyone. I was then accused of being a "rich cunt" who had been to a fee paying school. I then told everyone that the majority of the students at my school either pay nothing at all or paid 25% of the fees. I said that I didn't know which one applied to me as I had never discussed it with my parents. I was then accused of lying and people started saying that I *did* pay fees. I answered one of these people by saying "I didn't pay fees", and was immediately jumped all over by people shouting "Liar, liar, pants on fire". The second "lie" that a lot of people started creaming themselves about was that, from memory, I said I thought that the majority of people paid no fees back in the 1980s when I was at the school. I even provided a link to the school website. Someone looked up the link, found some figures for 2004 which were different from my recollections of the 80s, and started shouting "liar, liar, pants on fire" again.  

It is extremely pathetic to claim that this amounts to having shown I am a liar or dishonest, and it is also false to claim that I am "widely regarded as deceitful" since you are talking about a tiny clique who wouldn't know a truth or falsehood if it came up and smacked them in the face with a rolled up copy of Socialist Worker. It is easy to throw around claims of people being dishonest - maybe I should just say that *you* are widely regarded as dishonest, and maybe if I repeat it enough some people might start believing it?


> Your attempt to present yourself as some kind of 'alternative' martyr hounded out by an anarchist mainstream is pathetic and frankly, gut-wrenching.


Where did you get this bizarre idea? I am not presenting myself as "alternative" and the minority of posters who seem to love wallowing in shit are actually the minority. I wonder where you would locate yourself on this spectrum? It probably says more about your own self-image than anything else, and maybe about the fact that you have also started being abusive when you had arguments with me in the past, and this has colored a lot of your comments about me ever since.


> your favoured 'are the Welsh a race' theme


Would you care to find me one single thread that I have started on this so-called "theme" before? It is very obvious that "the Welsh are a separate race" is a claim frequently made by Ernestolynch, and my asking the question is by way of wanting to challenging the false beliefs around race, rather than anything to do with any interest I have in the specific question 'are the Welsh a race'. This should be so obvious to anyone who has a brain and can actually read English that I am really surprised that you are willing to actually try and make such a claim when it is so easy to prove as untrue. 


> I'm all for taking personal responsibility for one's actions. Yes you've taken a lot of flak this week. Yes some of it has been out of order (including the 'boring twat' ephitet I fired at you in sheer frustration the other day).
> 
> But, No, it's not everyone else's fault. You're largely the architect of your own present difficult position and only you can really do anything about that to be honest.


Thank you for saying that some of the abuse has been out of order and I will also admit that I have thrown abuse at people in reaction to getting laid into. As the tension goes up so does the tendancy to tell people to "fuck off" rather than try and and keep things civil and just argue the case. However, I am not saying it is "everyone's" fault. The vast majority of people on urban75 are totally fine, and many of the others know where to draw the line. I am talking about a mere handful of posters who deliberately go out of their way to have fights, be abusive, lie and generally behave like scumbags.


----------



## TeeJay (Jun 26, 2004)

ernestolynch said:
			
		

> What a very open, honest and downright spot-on post, Doc. Chwarae teg.


It gets the Stalinist stamp of approval for grade A propaganda does it?


----------



## TeeJay (Jun 26, 2004)

Dr. Christmas said:
			
		

> You're largely the architect of your own present difficult position and only you can really do anything about that to be honest.


So what are you suggesting?


----------



## ernestolynch (Jun 26, 2004)

So why *are* you obsessed with the Welsh sub-race (part of the Celtic Race)? Jealous?


----------



## Dr. Christmas (Jun 26, 2004)

I don't have any suggestions.

It's up to you to decide what you want to do in response. 

I'm not going to get into line-by-line scrutiny of your response above. It's my honest opinion as to why you've taken so much flak recently, and why you seem to be extremely and increasingly unpopular with a group of posters. If you disagree with it or see it as 'Stalinist propaganda' well, that's up to you.

Edited to add: one thing, though: you've been involved in endless discussions of the celtic 'races' ever since I've been reading this board. The fact that such threads no longer exist is not 'proof' that they never happened.


----------



## TeeJay (Jun 26, 2004)

ernestolynch said:
			
		

> So why *are* you obsessed with the Welsh sub-race (part of the Celtic Race)? Jealous?


I am not obsessed with them. You are the one who constantly makes claims about the Welsh being a separate "race". If someone arrived on these boards and started claiming that poeple from Outer Mongolia were a separate "race" I would challenge them as well. I might even start a thread entitled "Are Mongolians a separate race" and use it to argue that they aree not and the concept of separate and distinct "races" is false.


----------



## ernestolynch (Jun 26, 2004)

No, the Welsh are not a seperate race, they are a sub-race of the Celtic Race. You are in denial, Teejay-San....what's up, your punka-wallah on strike?


----------



## TeeJay (Jun 26, 2004)

Dr. Christmas said:
			
		

> I don't have any suggestions.


Come on don't be shy! How about setting out your own approach? If you can see negative things so clearly then surely you must be able to suggest postive behaviours as well? Of course everyone has to decide for themselves, but why not set out the options for dealing with the situation when arguments get heated? 


> I'm not going to get into line-by-line scrutiny of your response above. It's my honest opinion as to why you've taken so much flak recently, and why you seem to be extremely and increasingly unpopular with a group of posters. If you disagree with it or see it as 'Stalinist propaganda' well, that's up to you.


"extremely and increasingly unpopular with a group of posters" - I can agree with this, if you put it like that.


> you've been involved in endless discussions of the celtic 'races' ever since I've been reading this board.


I contribute to a whole range of threads. Most (maybe all apart from this one) of the "celtic" threads have been started by other people. The issue of regional assemblies in England, Wales, Scotland and NI is a current political issue, and as someone who wasn't even born in the UK and who has a "mixed" family and heritage, I actually feel more affiliation to the UK as a whole than to any of the individual countries that make it up. I therefoe feel entirely justified in arguing in favour of maninatin the UK as a single country, althoiugh I fully respect anyone's rights to disagee and their right to argue for devolution and independence. I don't agree with this and argue against it, but ultimately it should be the decision of the people in that region, although I would argue that people there who might want to retain some kinds of rights to live and work in the rest of the UK and were faced with losing these should have their rights as UK citizens protected somehow. What is wrong with people having an opinion about the UK as a whole and its political structures? It is currently one country and all UK citizens have the right to live and work anywhere within it, stand for election and help shape legislation and laws for all of it. The vast majority of people don't have any trouble with the fact that Blair, Brown and other cabinet members are Scottish, or that other cabinet members were not even born in the UK. I am not going to apologise for voicing an opinion about issues such as devolution or challenging people who try and claim that ther are such things as separate "races".


----------



## TeeJay (Jun 26, 2004)

What's a punka-wallah?


----------



## ernestolynch (Jun 26, 2004)

TeeJay said:
			
		

> The issue of regional assemblies in England, Wales, Scotland and NI is a current political issue, and as someone who wasn't even born in the UK and who has a "mixed" family and heritage, I actually feel more affiliation to the UK as a whole than to any of the individual countries that make it up. I therefoe feel entirely justified in arguing in favour of maninatin the UK as a single country



So you're a foreigner who is a British Nationalist....charming....


----------



## pbman (Jun 26, 2004)

past caring said:
			
		

> Yeah - a lot of people are. But much like your case, it's because of the _shit_ that's spouted, rather than awful people being nasty.
> no"



So it can't be both?

Do you live on earth or what?



> See, much like real life (or much like in the case of your and TurdJid's postings), where a diverse group of people, who in other circumstances wouldn't normally agree with one another, are all telling you that you're spouting bollocks, most sensible people would have pause for thought.



What diverse group of people are after me?

I get along with everyone pretty but the trots.

And claiming majority support in an argument is pathetic, and weak, as their plenty of silly group thought in the world it means little.


----------



## pbman (Jun 26, 2004)

ernestolynch said:
			
		

> So you're a foreigner who is a British Nationalist....charming....



Don't say shit like that without warning, i laughed so hard i spit coffee all over my keyboard.


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## Dr. Christmas (Jun 26, 2004)

1. My approach?

Briefly: 1. axe the endless C & P- a link will do 2. This isn't the House of Commons nor is u75 Hansard: perhaps cut down on the verbiage? In a 'here today, gone tomorrow' throwaway medium like a busy BB, no-one reads thesis-length justifications of a particular point. 3. stop going on and on about your fucking ignore list and indulging in 'withering' valedictory paragraphs of people you've added to it. It makes you look about 5. 4. Stop taking everything so personally- it's only typing on the internet.


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## ernestolynch (Jun 26, 2004)

Dr. Christmas said:
			
		

> 1. My approach?
> 
> Briefly: 1. axe the endless C & P- a link will do 2. This isn't the House of Commons nor is u75 Hansard: perhaps cut down on the verbiage? In a 'here today, gone tomorrow' throwaway medium like a busy BB, no-one reads thesis-length justifications of a particular point. 3. stop going on and on about your fucking ignore list and indulging in 'withering' valedictory paragraphs of people you've added to it. It makes you look about 5. 4. Stop taking everything so personally- it's only typing on the internet.



If he took this advice, we'd have a lot less fun.


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## TeeJay (Jun 26, 2004)

ernestolynch said:
			
		

> So you're a foreigner


How did you work this one out then?   

I am a UK citizen. I have family and connections with a whole range of countries within and outside the UK. I do not believe in separate races and I hate racists. I support the Green Party.

You labelling is way off the mark.


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## TeeJay (Jun 26, 2004)

What's a punka-wallah?


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## ernestolynch (Jun 26, 2004)

I'm not a Yookay Citizen. I didn't know there was such a thing. You're Johhny Foreigner on some British Nationalist meal-ticket!


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## METH LAB (Jun 26, 2004)

"What's a punka-wallah?"

A big ass tri-pod with a hot ass heat ray.... and 3 legs.


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## ernestolynch (Jun 26, 2004)

I think our Crazy American British Nationalist mainlines rather than uses one of those.


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## TeeJay (Jun 26, 2004)

Dr. Christmas said:
			
		

> 1. My approach?
> 
> Briefly: 1. axe the endless C & P- a link will do 2. This isn't the House of Commons nor is u75 Hansard: perhaps cut down on the verbiage? In a 'here today, gone tomorrow' throwaway medium like a busy BB, no-one reads thesis-length justifications of a particular point. 3. stop going on and on about your fucking ignore list and indulging in 'withering' valedictory paragraphs of people you've added to it. It makes you look about 5. 4. Stop taking everything so personally- it's only typing on the internet.


Thank you for this. 

However:

*1. axe the endless C & P - a link will do*

I don't see why a very short C&P of something that expresses a pint far better than I am able to is any worse than trying to type out the same thing myself, except not as well, if it is roughly the same length of text or whatever, so I will continue to do this where I feel that relevant or useful. It is also worth letting people know that a view or point of information isn't just coming from my imagination - that it is coming from a source that has had input from a much wider group of people. In fact doing this makes a very different point than just stating my perosonal opinion on something. 

*2. ...cut down on the verbiage?*

Plenty of people write very long posts, or make hundreds of shorter posts which add to to very much the same thing. It is very easy to not bother reading a long or boring post so why would anyone get angry about this? If someone really was being excessive I am sure the mods would be able to ask them to cut things down, and they often do remove excessive C&Ps if they have to (although I have never had one of mine removed).


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## TeeJay (Jun 26, 2004)

ernestolynch said:
			
		

> I think our Crazy American British Nationalist mainlines rather than uses one of those.


What is this comment mean to mean exactly? Surely not a reference to travelling by train surely?


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## TeeJay (Jun 26, 2004)

ernestolynch said:
			
		

> If he took this advice, we'd have a lot less fun.


Which "fun" are you referring to Ernesto? Are you saying you actually enjoy reading Green Party press releases? I'd better sign you up to the daily email lists then!


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## METH LAB (Jun 26, 2004)

"Surely not a reference to travelling by train surely?"

 lmao


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## TeeJay (Jun 26, 2004)

ernestolynch said:
			
		

> I didn't know there was such a thing.


So you are a completely ignorant fool then? Do you have a passport? What does it say in the front? Who is the issuing authority for the passport (you will find this on the photo page)? You really are a bizarre troglodyte aren't you?


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## ernestolynch (Jun 26, 2004)

TeeJay said:
			
		

> So you are a completely ignorant fool then? Do you have a passport? What does it say in the front? Who is the issuing authority for the passport (you will find this on the photo page)? You really are a bizarre troglodyte aren't you?



You're doing it again, Teejay-san....are you saying that the Celtic race are 'troglodytes' now? RASCIST!


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## ernestolynch (Jun 26, 2004)

I have a Welsh passport anyway, Teejay-san.


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## TeeJay (Jun 26, 2004)

ernestolynch said:
			
		

> You're doing it again, Teejay-san....are you saying that the Celtic race are 'troglodytes' now? RASCIST!


No - *you* are a troglodyte.

And what do you have against "rascs" anyway?   

Oh, I see! RASC = The Royal Astronomical Society of Canada, motto "Quo Ducit Urania" (Where Urania leads).

So what have you got against Uranus Ernie?


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## ViolentPanda (Jun 26, 2004)

ernestolynch said:
			
		

> You're doing it again, Teejay-san....are you saying that the Celtic race are 'troglodytes' now? RASCIST!



No ern, he's saying *you're* a troglodyte. 
Bit unfair on trogs tbh.


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## ernestolynch (Jun 26, 2004)

TeeJay said:
			
		

> No - *you* are a troglodyte.
> 
> And what do you have against "rascs" anyway?
> 
> ...



ADHOMINEM!!!! BAN HIM! BAN HIM NOW!!!!!
*Post reported*


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## TeeJay (Jun 26, 2004)

trog·lo·dyte    ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (trgl-dt)
n.

1.
1. A member of a fabulous or prehistoric race of people that lived in caves, dens, or holes.
2. A person considered to be reclusive, reactionary, out of date, or brutish.

2.
1. An anthropoid ape, such as a gorilla or chimpanzee.
2. An animal that lives underground, as an ant or a worm.

Hmm - I see what you mean. Probably is a bit unfair on the trogs.


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## TeeJay (Jun 26, 2004)

ernestolynch said:
			
		

> ADHOMINEM!!!! BAN HIM! BAN HIM NOW!!!!!
> *Post reported*


Who to Ernie? The Central Committee?

I thought you left the SWP years ago?


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