# Brixton venues requiring photo ID for entry



## editor (Apr 1, 2013)

I'm going to compile a list of all the Brixton venues currently foisting scan ID on its customers for BrixtonBuzz - hopefully by forewarning people they can make the decision whether to take ID out with them or go somewhere else.

These are four that I know about - are there any others?

Hootananny (photo ID and membership needed for entry after 11pm - membership can be bought on the door for £2, but only after an interview to "to decide whether you are appropriate to be a member." Scheme operates Thurs-Fri)
Dogstar: Photo ID scan required
Club 414: Photo ID scan required
Plan B: Photo ID scan required


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## Belushi (Apr 1, 2013)

The only photo ID I have is my passport and there's no way I want to take that out with me when I'm out drinking.


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## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Apr 1, 2013)

editor said:


> I'm going to compile a list of all the Brixton venues currently foisting scan ID on its customers for BrixtonBuzz - hopefully by forewarning people they can make the decision whether to take ID out with them or go somewhere else.
> 
> These are four that I know about - are there any others?
> 
> ...


 
Has anyone been interviewed for suitability for Hootenanny membership yet? 

More seriously I'd like to now abut the data procedures. I'm not so worried about just showing ID although it's a pain for a lot of people who don't carry it, but the whole scan and store thing is a bit more than that.


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## Maltin (Apr 1, 2013)

Not related to Brixton but this is pissing me off. As Belushi says, the only photo ID I have is my passport. Why the fuck should I need to carry photo ID with me at al times just to get in pubs and clubs.  Queued about 30 minutes trying to get in somewhere on Sat night only to be turned away as we had no ID   Walkabout down the road has also introduced this when showing football for "big games" whatever that means.


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## editor (Apr 1, 2013)

Belushi said:


> The only photo ID I have is my passport and there's no way I want to taking that out with me when I'm out drinking.


The 414 - bless 'em - even offer to look after your ID while you enjoy a night at their club.

Here's a comment from the BrixtonBuzz article on the club: 


> See…thats the sort of place this is..Our “I.D will be looked after until we are ready to leave,”!! Wouldn’t expect or get that at ‘egg’ (for example) or say Bagleys…would we? and for sure I have seen the owner fetch one of her own jumpers from her own wardrobe , because a girl was feeling cold on the roof terrace one morning!!!! <3 414


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## Ms Ordinary (Apr 1, 2013)

Belushi said:


> The only photo ID I have is my passport and there's no way I want to take that out with me when I'm out drinking.


 
I'm getting used to the idea that I'm going to have to sometimes, thread is a good idea as it's the kind of thing that would take me by surprise.


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## Pickman's model (Apr 1, 2013)

I stopped bothering carrying id when I was 19. Is this id nonsense to catch out underage drinkers or so they know who you are if you get assaulted?


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## MrSki (Apr 1, 2013)

My passport e





Belushi said:


> The only photo ID I have is my passport and there's no way I want to take that out with me when I'm out drinking.


My passport expired in 2006. Currently have no photo ID.


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## fortyplus (Apr 1, 2013)

This seems to me to be an utter shambles.
 I'm pretty certain that scanning photo ID is data collection that needs to be notified to the Information Commissioner. Failure to notify is a criminal offence. Has anyone from the police, or from Lambeth, told these licensees that they have to do this?  Do they care? 
The register of data controllers is on the ICO website and is searchable. I've searched by postcode for Hootananny and Dogstar, which have been doing it for longest. No results found. 

In my view, the police, having insisted on this as a condition of the licence, should also ensure that the data collected (which is mainly for their benefit) is legally (and securely) stored.  It's quite possible to do this, but it needs robust procedures, kit, and staff training. I don't get the impression that any of this is happening.


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## editor (Apr 1, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> I stopped bothering carrying id when I was 19. Is this id nonsense to catch out underage drinkers or so they know who you are if you get assaulted?


It will obviously work well for that (it flashes your age up on the screen in big letters, so that may cause embarrassment for some people!) but I'd suggest the driving force for installing scanners is not catching under-age drinkers but for targeting crimes like bag theft and enforcing bans (either from the original venue or those in the surrounding area).

Talking of which, I'd be interested to know how far the ban 'net extends. Is it by street? borough? city?


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## editor (Apr 1, 2013)

You can read more on club scans here:http://www.nightclub.co.uk/uk_products_clubscan.php

Spot the typ


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## Gramsci (Apr 1, 2013)

editor said:


> You can read more on club scans here:http://www.nightclub.co.uk/uk_products_clubscan.php
> 
> Spot the typ
> 
> View attachment 30973


 
This is intrusive. Its also about collecting general info that is unrelated to security or policing.

Such as male to female ratio and graphic demographic report ( I assume where the customers come from)

Demographics on wickepedia




> *Demographics* are the quantifiable statistics of a given population. Demographics is also used to identify the study of quantifiable subsets within a given population which characterize that population at a specific point in time.
> These types of data are used widely in public opinion polling and marketing. Commonly examined demographics include gender, age, ethnicity, knowledge oflanguages, disabilities, mobility, home ownership, employment status, and even location.


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## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Apr 1, 2013)

Gramsci said:


> This is intrusive. Its also about collecting general info that is unrelated to security or policing.


 
Yes. I think amongst a lot of 'the powers that be' there's been a development of an attitude that monitoring people will just work, in some way they haven't worked out yet. It just seems instinctively a good idea to people like the Police and politicians to gather as much info as you can.

MONITOR EVERYONE


?????


PROFIT!


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## editor (Apr 1, 2013)

Interesting article here from 2009: 


> Good news for fetishists wishing to protect their privacy on a night out in South London. Less good news for the rest of us, as Police and Government obsession with crime prevention continues to make inroads into our personal privacy and security - but some comfort, as senior politicians from all parties take up an issue first highlighted by The Register.
> 
> Last month we reported how, following an incident at South London nightclub SEOne, police requested a licensing condition be set for all future events that "all persons entering the premises must supply verifiable identification details that are passed through a digital scanning and recording system". This also applied to fetish events put on there by Torture Garden, despite the fact that these have historically been less likely to attract anti-social behaviour.
> 
> El Reg reported concerns about this latest approach to preventive policing: there was no evidence that anything about the running of the SEOne scheme was improper, but a proliferation of one-off security databases, in clubs, pubs and all High St premises where age-restricted items were sold, could pose a massive threat to privacy, as well as provide a ready source of unsecured data for criminals to take advantage of.





> The good news comes from Torture Garden, where a spokesman told us: "We have now met again with SEOne and explained the Data Protection Act. They accept that they do not need to retain data for three years, and have agreed with police and local council that in respect of TG events, and in the absence of serious incident, data will only be kept for 31 days.
> 
> "They have also now accepted their obligation to register and appoint a named data controller: and are looking at the possibility of extending the 31-day policy to other events that they host."
> 
> ...


http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/05/12/id_scanner/


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## editor (Apr 1, 2013)

I am a bit worried how shoddy some of these websites are - it doesn't make me want to trust them with my data. 

Here's another ID scanning company. 


> IDsmart − In addition to verifying the validity of the presented ID document, IDscan takes document authentication to the next level in a seamless cost-effective process to make further checks on the individual, by cross referencing the ID information harvested from the scanned and authenticated ID against multiple data sets including anti-money laundering, KYC, insolvency, birth, death, insolvency and electoral registrars.
> 
> http://idscan.co.uk/


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## laughalot (Apr 1, 2013)

Hello..
Rather than questions and answer format…I will write a piece trying to cover points.

All clubs using the technology to scan and record information either on CCTV or scanners must register with ‘The Data Commissioner’s Office’
They must also put up signage disclosing their company’s name, or the name of a person to contact and telephone number.
This sign must be in a prominent place to comply with ‘The Data Protection act 1998’.

The technology enables the venues to collect the photo ID from persons entering their premises. Passports world wide (most countries) and driving licences (most countries)
The information that a venue gathers remains on the system they have indefinitely. This information can not be deleted by the venues only by the company who has supplied the product and software. They have stringent rules to follow also by ‘The Data Protection Act’.

Information can be accessed by the venue should they wish to asses the information but only by persons listed with the company who installed the machine this would be protected by names and passwords.

The police will not have any information sent to them UNLESS a venue has put ‘A BAN’ on to a person. It will then be a decision made by the police should the person’s details be shared with other venues in the area.

Should a venue give a caution to a customer for breaking a rule or misbehaving, that does not warrant a ban, will registrar only on the venue’s system and can be lifted at a time when the venue is ready to do so.

I will have a meeting soon to ask a few more question’s that have been asked over the weekend and will be more than willing to come and let you all know more at a later date.


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## Tolpuddle (Apr 1, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> I stopped bothering carrying id when I was 19. Is this id nonsense to catch out underage drinkers or so they know who you are if you get assaulted?


 
I think it is to identify who has assaulted you as they know who was there at the time...


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## Maltin (Apr 1, 2013)

Seems like the Home Office was giving grants for pubs and clubs to install these. 

http://www.thisiscornwall.co.uk/Gra...tory-15577531-detail/story.html#axzz2PDefInCM


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## Gramsci (Apr 1, 2013)

laughalot said:


> The police will not have any information sent to them UNLESS a venue has put ‘A BAN’ on to a person. It will then be a decision made by the police should the person’s details be shared with other venues in the area.
> 
> .


 
Reading the pdf on the application under the section ID scan and Search Arch says in

1. An ID scanning system shall be installed at the premises and maintained in good Working
order. The system should be able to share banned customers with other venues, identify
the hologram of an lD and read both Passports and lD cards,* the system should be able*
*to send a Weekly statistical report to the licensing team,* the system to be used as a
minimum at all times when door staff are used and or when money for entry is operated.

3. That an ID Scan be installed and maintained at the premises and be operational
whenever door staff are on duty and *reports made available to the Metropolitan Police *
*Service on request.*


Were these two requirements agreed? As in that case info is not only sent to Met if someone is banned. But also if they request it. Do u know what a weekly statistical report contains? What info would be in reports to the Met if requested?


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## editor (Apr 1, 2013)

Here's yet another ID scan company with a dodgy looking site (most of the images are broken on the front page). It troubles me deeply that all this is being run by the private sector because those machines can pick up more than enough data for identity theft.


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## Gramsci (Apr 1, 2013)

Maltin said:


> Seems like the Home Office was giving grants for pubs and clubs to install these.
> 
> http://www.thisiscornwall.co.uk/Gra...tory-15577531-detail/story.html#axzz2PDefInCM


 
Like CCTV this is being encouraged without evidence that it stops crime.


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## skyscraper101 (Apr 1, 2013)

These look well dodge. Privately owned machines capturing ID scans? Then when it inevitably fails as an initiative they've still got plenty of captured data to er, sell on to make back some of the losses. I hope the whole thing fails spectacularly.


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## joustmaster (Apr 1, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> I stopped bothering carrying id when I was 19. Is this id nonsense to catch out underage drinkers or so they know who you are if you get assaulted?


I went out in camden some months a go, and a lot of places wanted photo ID. The bouncers said it was a measure that was to reduce pickpockets and bag snatchers.


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## Mrs Magpie (Apr 1, 2013)

joustmaster said:


> I went out in camden some months a go, and a lot of places wanted photo ID. The bouncers said it was a measure that was to reduce pickpockets and bag snatchers.


I'm 99% sure that's why it was introduced at the Dogstar, because professional teams of bag thieves were targeting the venue.


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## joustmaster (Apr 2, 2013)

Mrs Magpie said:


> I'm 99% sure that's why it was introduced at the Dogstar, because professional teams of bag thieves were targeting the venue.


The bouncers I talked to in Camden said it had made a huge difference.
Although we whined and pleaded at a few bars, who eventually let us in with out ID


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## editor (Apr 2, 2013)

joustmaster said:


> Although we whined and pleaded at a few bars, who eventually let us in with out ID


They could risk the venue's licence by doing that.


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## gabi (Apr 2, 2013)

ive got a scan of my passport ID page saved on my email. can i just show them the email on my ipod?


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## Private Storm (Apr 2, 2013)

I know it's not Brixton, but not too far away.....went to Fire in Vauxhall on Thursday night and the first anyone hears about photo ID being essential to entry is when we get to the front of the queue. Not when we bought the tickets, not on the venue website, the night's website, nowhere. We blagged it with a European Health care, an expired AMEX etc, but did meet some people inside whose friends had been refused entry. They weren't scanning them, just "checking" (didn't notice there were three people, one after the other, with the same name). Would have been fuming if we hadn't been allowed entry.


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## editor (Apr 2, 2013)

gabi said:


> ive got a scan of my passport ID page saved on my email. can i just show them the email on my ipod?


No, you have to produce full paper documentation.

I'm running a piece about this on BrixtonBuzz tomorrow.


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## laughalot (Apr 2, 2013)

Gramsci said:


> Reading the pdf on the application under the section ID scan and Search Arch says in
> 
> 1. An ID scanning system shall be installed at the premises and maintained in good Working
> order. The system should be able to share banned customers with other venues, identify
> ...


 
This is one of the questions we will be asking.
We not sure if we have installed the same equipment as other venue's in Brixton, but we are of the understanding, the police central licencing team only can approve the sharing of information. The question will be asked again and conformation will be given as soon as possible.


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## editor (Apr 2, 2013)

I'll be interested in your comments about the article that's going up tomorrow!


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## Gramsci (Apr 2, 2013)

laughalot said:


> This is one of the questions we will be asking.
> We not sure if we have installed the same equipment as other venue's in Brixton, but we are of the understanding, the police central licencing team only can approve the sharing of information. The question will be asked again and conformation will be given as soon as possible.


 
Not having a go at you. Also I think, given the good record of your club, that ID scanning as requirement was unnecessary.

I think police want to bring it to point where all late night clubs have it. 

I asked the question as it seems to me that this is a good way for the police to have a source of information- for free. As you pay for all the equipment. The police like to have source of info about an area. General intelligence. This can add to it.

The license requirement does not specify on what grounds they can access this data. So I assume they do not have to give premises owner a reason. Which I notice is kept indefinitely. To my surprise. As I thought its normal that data like this , for entry to premises, would be deleted after a few months for reasons of personal privacy.

So I am suspicious that this is not just about safety in clubs.


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## laughalot (Apr 2, 2013)

A concern I do have by sharing information without having the authorities overseeing the process would be should a person upset a someone working at a venue and then their scaned information is then used to get them refused entry to every other venue in town for no proper reason other than spite.


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## editor (Apr 2, 2013)

With different clubs running different scanning systems, it's entirely possible that in one single night you might end up with your personal data and photos being uploaded to multiple databases. That worries me very much.


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## laughalot (Apr 2, 2013)

Gramsci said:


> Not having a go at you. Also I think, given the good record of your club, that ID scanning as requirement was unnecessary.
> 
> I think police want to bring it to point where all late night clubs have it.
> 
> ...


 
Alot of our customers over this weekend have thought so too and the metal arch is so big it does not fit in our doorway .....giggle....
We too were suprised at the information gathered would remain indefinitely, we were of the opinion it should delete itself after 31 days.
Maybe as all this new technology developes 'the powers that be' will reconsider some of these points.
I think everything in life now is about information that can be gathered.....

I'm showing my age now...reminds me of the programe 'Danger man'.....'we need information'


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## editor (Apr 2, 2013)

There's loads of grey areas in here. How big an area may a punter find themselves banned from if a club sticks them on the police database? A street? A city centre? A borough?

Who is checking the companies running these ID scan services?
How secure is their technology?
Has it been independently tested? etc etc


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## gabi (Apr 2, 2013)

editor said:


> No, you have to produce full paper documentation.
> 
> I'm running a piece about this on BrixtonBuzz tomorrow.


 
Are you sure? I dont even print boarding passes for flights these days, flashing the email on the ipod is enough. im not gonna carry round my passport when clubbing and i dont drive.


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## editor (Apr 2, 2013)

gabi said:


> Are you sure? I dont even print boarding passes for flights these days, flashing the email on the ipod is enough. im not gonna carry round my passport when clubbing and i dont drive.


Yes. Take a look at the scanning sites linked earlier on.


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## r0bb0 (Apr 2, 2013)

I see it as an erosion of our civil liberties. Where will it stop, personal GPS trackers because if we're not causing any harm it shouldn't be a problem?


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## Pickman's model (Apr 2, 2013)

joustmaster said:


> I went out in camden some months a go, and a lot of places wanted photo ID. The bouncers said it was a measure that was to reduce pickpockets and bag snatchers.


What do you do if you've been bag-snatched and want a pint?


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## Pickman's model (Apr 2, 2013)

Tolpuddle said:


> I think it is to identify who has assaulted you as they know who was there at the time...


& if it was a bouncer?


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## fortyplus (Apr 2, 2013)

Although not directly affected as I hardly ever go out these days, the privacy implications of this practice are alarming. I have written to the Information Commissioner's Office and asked if they are aware that the police are imposing these conditions and whether they have issued any good practice guidelines.
The fact that two venues mentioned in my earlier post didn't come up in the search doesn't necessarily mean that they aren't complying with the law, it could well be that the data controller operates from a different address (if, say, data protection is handled by the provider of the scanning service). Nevertheless there is a transparency issue and in my opinion the ICO registration should be made under the address of the venue collecting the data.


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## editor (Apr 2, 2013)

I've just posted up a fairly lengthy piece that references many of the points made here. If you think I've missed anything, please post here and I'll amend/update the piece. 

http://www.brixtonbuzz.com/2013/04/concerns-grow-over-the-rise-of-compulsory-id-scanning-in-venues/


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## freemaniac (Apr 2, 2013)

ID SCAN EXPLAINED BY A USER
I work at a venue using IDscan, and frankly it is a worry. Fortunately we are a decent bunch (by and large) however after playing with the system for a few minutes I managed to pull up a staggering amount of information on a customer that had been, very willingly, scanned into the system. Perhaps on the old presumption.. 'If I have nothing to hide, I have nothing to fear'. A very ignorant attitude adopted by big brother sympathisers. With a few touches I had the woman's Name, Age, DOB, Address with a googlemaps link, Place of birth, Star sign, email address and more. THAT, methinks, _is_ something to hide. 

How much of the data is shared? Well obviously some is for other machines to recognize the status of a barred id. And it is up to the user to determine the length and breath of the ban. For example I took an image of my genitalia and barred them within a hundred mile radius. Now any system that also sets its radius within my catchment area will be alerted to my meat and two veg being barred in Brixton for lewd conduct... 

Shame as they are usually so well behaved unless they drink vodka. 

Aside from that the guy who installed the system assured me that all the data is stored on site and should the police require a list of witnesses they can download the data manually by visiting the premises. 

So the crime-fighting capabilities of these machines are potentially worthwhile. And since the system was installed we have seen and almost 100% drop in petty theft from the venue. Which is exactly what the system was installed to do. However we have had the odd bar fight, theft and bad behavior as can be expected from any establishment providing late night 'refreshment'. Although we have a list of everyone who was in the venue at the time of the incidents including the perps themselves. Not once have the police popped over to gather the intel. I'm not sure they even know how to.

The main use of these machines is a deterrent. And in that it succeeds. But that begs the question; If these things are a glorified scarecrow. Does this scarecrow need brains?


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## editor (Apr 2, 2013)

freemaniac said:


> ID SCAN EXPLAINED BY A USER
> I work at a venue using IDscan, and frankly it is a worry. Fortunately we are a decent bunch (by and large) however after playing with the system for a few minutes I managed to pull up a staggering amount of information on a customer that had been, very willingly, scanned into the system. Perhaps on the old presumption.. 'If I have nothing to hide, I have nothing to fear'. A very ignorant attitude adopted by big brother sympathisers. With a few touches I had the woman's Name, Age, DOB, Address with a googlemaps link, Place of birth, Star sign, email address and more. THAT, methinks, _is_ something to hide.


The potential for abuse from, say, security staff is huge.

If a bouncer took an unhealthy shine to a girl coming in to his bar, he'd have the entire stalker's kit at his fingertips.


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## editor (Apr 2, 2013)

freemaniac said:


> Aside from that the guy who installed the system assured me that all the data is stored on site and should the police require a list of witnesses they can download the data manually by visiting the premises.


Do you know if it's securely encrypted? Given the huge rise in data theft, you'd think that a big juicy database of personal details would prove a very tempting target for criminals.


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## freemaniac (Apr 2, 2013)

editor said:


> The potential for abuse from, say, security staff is huge.
> 
> If a bouncer took an unhealthy shine to a girl coming in to his bar, he'd have the entire stalker's kit at his fingertips.


Exactly, one can even access streetview to see what the girls front door looks like. (not that I've done so)


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## freemaniac (Apr 2, 2013)

I dont know if its encrypted or not, or how much data is available over the network, encrypted or not. But given how these systems are peddled and thrown at venues as a quick fix by licencing officers I doubt there are any regulations being heeded.


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## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Apr 2, 2013)

editor said:


> The potential for abuse from, say, security staff is huge.


 
I think that's a big issue tbh. With respect to the good ones out there, a lot of security firms and staff working clubs have often been borderline (or not so borderline) gangsters. Licencing might have improved them but not to the point where you'd feel comfortable with them having access to that sort of information.


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## freemaniac (Apr 2, 2013)

fortyplus said:


> In my view, the police, having insisted on this as a condition of the licence, should also ensure that the data collected (which is mainly for their benefit) is legally (and securely) stored. It's quite possible to do this, but it needs robust procedures, kit, and staff training. I don't get the impression that any of this is happening.


 
It's not.


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## freemaniac (Apr 2, 2013)

I just phoned the police asking for some guidance regarding my business' legal responsibilities regarding data collection.. as that is what we are doing and not only did they not seem to know what an ID scan system is they couldn't provide me with any relevant information... Advice was to go to the police station and ask there...

Seems this one has totally slipped through the net. Furthermore I believe this whole scheme has been adopted as a knee-jerk reaction and that it has been sold to licencing authorities by playing on their desire for tighter controls.

Will keep everyone updated on my findings.


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## fortyplus (Apr 2, 2013)

Thanks for the info, freemaniac. I will report back if I get a response from the ICO; it's the sort of thing they do take seriously but their resources keep getting cut. 

Since it's a criminal offence not to notify the ICO, it seems to me that a conviction would put a licence in jeopardy.  Might also be worth asking Lambeth licensing what advice they give about the data protection implications of the conditions they impose.


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## freemaniac (Apr 2, 2013)

IDscan, the company that provide our machine have offered me only a copy of a notice to display to cover ourselves legally. No more information on our legal responsibilities. So you can  Seems that access to the data on the machine and the training of those granted access is down to the licence holder. That being said, has anybody enforced that, or offered guidance? No. The data is encrypted, however. 

Will pop down the copshop later to see what they are doing to prevent misuse of the systems, at least in Brixton.


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## freemaniac (Apr 2, 2013)

fortyplus said:


> Since it's a criminal offence not to notify the ICO, it seems to me that a conviction would put a licence in jeopardy. Might also be worth asking Lambeth licensing what advice they give about the data protection implications of the conditions they impose.


 
This is exactly what I am concerned about. If and when this whole scheme blows up in everyone's face due to some dodgy member of staff abusing the info, who is then liable? I think this is another example of the law not keeping up with the technology.


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## ddraig (Apr 2, 2013)

and it makes Policing easier of course
in Cardiff, it started last year
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-south-east-wales-15497733


> *'Many benefits'*
> "If you are in town in a night out and you mess up, you could be banned from every club in Cardiff. It would definitely put me off."
> Mr Newman, whose forum represents about 100 premises in the city, said the benefits of digital ID scheme were "many and varied".
> In addition to identifying fake identify documents, information could be shared between venues about people who have been banned, he said.
> ...


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## Dan U (Apr 2, 2013)

freemaniac said:


> For example I took an image of my genitalia and barred them within a hundred mile radius. Now any system that also sets its radius within my catchment area will be alerted to my meat and two veg being barred in Brixton for lewd conduct...
> 
> Shame as they are usually so well behaved unless they drink vodka.


 
i know this is a serious subject but


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## Brixton Hatter (Apr 2, 2013)

No offence to 414 and laughalot but I won't be going to the 414 again because of this ID scanning. It pains me to say that, cos I've loved going to 414 over the years.

This is the police taking the piss basically - extending their powers into areas where they shouldn't. ID cards by the back door. Anything seems to be justified in the name of fighting crime. I don't like the idea of bouncers, security, police and venues having access to people's personal details - it is just not needed. One of the systems mentioned above scans for insolvency - are you barred from going out for a drink because you were bankrupt sometime earlier in your life?

And where will it stop? Will all pubs have this in future? Music venues? Cafes and restuarants? Posh shopping centres? Schools?

And what if you don't have a photo driving licence (like me) or a passport (like 18 million people in the UK)?

The insecurity of the data is a huge problem. Loads of people will have access to it and it only takes one person to steal the data - and they *will* steal it. Don't be naive about this - your personal data is being bought and sold right now on the internet. And stuff like passport and driving licence data is really useful for criminals/hackers because they have stuff like birth dates and home addresses on.

I am off to investigate further. This is shit and it needs to be resisted....


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## Dan U (Apr 2, 2013)

i have to say i would think twice about going to any all night venue where i might be getting a bit - erm - lively if i knew my information was held in this way. 

i've also been pretty shocked at some of the stuff i've read on here about how the data is stored, who by etc. 

the only place i've ever been which wanted ID like this was Shunt, iirc they had to change to this system after a shooting at SE1 nearby and I didn't really give it another thought, but clearly I should have done. really shit stuff.


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## DJWrongspeed (Apr 2, 2013)

I shan't be participating in any of this.


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## editor (Apr 2, 2013)

DJWrongspeed said:


> I shan't be participating in any of this.


What's particularly unfair is that it's usually not the venue who wants this stuff installed. It loses them customers and often is unnecessary.


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## freemaniac (Apr 2, 2013)

The Fruits of my labour... 

IDscan - Just a printable disclaimer
Lambeth Licencing - Not our problem
Information commissioner - Very helpful chat.

The onus is on the Licencee to provide a comprehensive data protection policy. Although this is not enforced by law. The same way as Employees personal documents would be kept safe. The problem is, and this I made known to the ICO, is that while you would lock sensitive documents away in a filing cabinet in an office and not leave them lying around the premises. An IDscanner is tantamount to doing just that. 

So I guess we just do what we always do and assume everything is ok and wait for something bad to happen then have a out of proportion response to a sensationalised story from the Daily Start-Shit.


----------



## editor (Apr 2, 2013)

freemaniac said:


> The Fruits of my labour...
> 
> IDscan - Just a printable disclaimer
> Lambeth Licencing - Not our problem
> ...


A recipe for disaster waiting to happen then. It's surely a fucked up world when untrained staff have access to detailed data on a customer's name, date of birth, phone number, home address and more.


----------



## Brixton Hatter (Apr 2, 2013)

freemaniac said:


> The onus is on the Licencee to provide a comprehensive data protection policy. Although this is not enforced by law.


This is ridiculous. You can't really expect licensees to put in place data protection policies - well, not properly anyway. Many businesses already have serious problems with information/data storage. Companies are being hacked all over the place. This is a proper shambles.


----------



## keithy (Apr 2, 2013)

I don't have any photo ID... kind of glad now...


----------



## laughalot (Apr 2, 2013)

No offence taken BrixtonHatter......feel good you are going to investicate this further...big hug to you...


----------



## fortyplus (Apr 2, 2013)

Frankly the most shocking thing is that IDScan don't take this more seriously. They're selling a solution to the problem imposed by the police, and if it doesn't include data protection advice (particularly about notification) and training it's a defective one.  If they don't even tell you that it's a legal requirement to notify the Information Commissioner if you ever use this thing they're selling you, that's getting pretty close to forcing you to commit the offence.


----------



## fortyplus (Apr 2, 2013)

freemaniac said:


> IDscan, the company that provide our machine have offered me only a copy of a notice to display to cover ourselves legally. No more information on our legal responsibilities. So you can Seems that access to the data on the machine and the training of those granted access is down to the licence holder. That being said, has anybody enforced that, or offered guidance? No. The data is encrypted, however.
> 
> Will pop down the copshop later to see what they are doing to prevent misuse of the systems, at least in Brixton.


As I understand it, I don't think a notice does cover yourselves legally. I'm pretty sure you (your venue) need to notify the ICO that you're processing personal information.  There's a fee, of course.


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 2, 2013)

freemaniac said:


> The Fruits of my labour...
> 
> Lambeth Licencing - Not our problem
> .


 
Thanks for all your efforts freemaniac.

Lambeth Licensing to say its not there problem is totally irresponsible of them. 

Whilst the Police wanted the license reviewed its up to Lambeth Licensing to oversee the conditions. 

So Lambeth Licensing attitude toward those who go to venues and hand over a lot of personal information is that they do not give a monkeys.


----------



## 8115 (Apr 2, 2013)

The main benefits of this system is to try and tackle bag thefts and serious criminality (ie serious assault) in a club. I can't really see any other benefit apart from possibly marketing and frankly I don't think most bars are well organised enough to do this, quite apart from any legal implications.

If bag-snatching etc is a problem it makes me starts to wonder a bit more about the venues, do people regularly take their bags out if they don't need to, and don't they keep an eye on their bags? I don't know, people don't really take bags into town round here, or there are cloakrooms. And serious assaults etc are up to clubs and bouncers to prevent and deal with as part of a wider theme on keeping people safe.

Brixton is probably different to areas I've known but I would have thought that there are better ways to tackle those problems than ID scanning.


----------



## editor (Apr 2, 2013)

8115 said:


> If bag-snatching etc is a problem it makes me starts to wonder a bit more about the venues, do people regularly take their bags out if they don't need to, and don't they keep an eye on their bags?


People can be ridiculously stupid with their belongings when they're out for the night. A not uncommon end to the night in some venues goes along the lines of:

Upset drunk man/woman: "I've had my fucking bag/jacket nicked... mumble... shit security... shit club.. wankers etc"
Me/Security/Barstaff person: "I'm sorry to hear that. Where was your bag?"
Upset drunk man/woman: (points to far corner) "Over there"
Me/Security/Barstaff person: "So where were you?
Upset drunk man/woman: (points to opposite corner) "Dancing with all my friends over there."


----------



## 8115 (Apr 2, 2013)

That conversation probably usually ends with "oh no, here it is" (somewhere completely different).  You don't have to tell me the public are stupid, I know it already.

If bag snatching is a big problem though it implies mass carelessness.  I'm imagining Brixton as some bar/ nightclub seventh circle of hell.  I'm sure it's not that bad.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Apr 2, 2013)

8115 said:


> If bag snatching is a big problem though it implies mass carelessness.


 
I don't think it does tbh. Obviously it happens that people aren't paying attention (I lost a rucksack in the Albert that I didn't realise I'd lost until I got home ) but bags can be taken very quickly, even if people are close by and keeping an eye out.


----------



## Maltin (Apr 2, 2013)

Here's a document that the Information Commissioner produced in 2009. Not sure if they've updated it since. 

http://www.ico.org.uk/for_organisat...on/SCANNING_DEVICES_IN_PUBS_AND_CLUBS_V1.ashx

They and other documents I've seen suggest the devices are mainly to check for underage drinkers. I'm happy if that's what pubs and clubs want to use them for but blanket use to identify and track everyone (that the police and licensing authorities seem to want to push) doesn't sit right with me.


----------



## editor (Apr 2, 2013)

8115 said:


> If bag snatching is a big problem though it implies mass carelessness.


It'a a bit of both. Brixton has increasingly been targeted by professional bag/phone thieves for some time. They've even been cunning enough to pay into big gigs to do their stealing - remember the thefts from the Carter USM Academy gigs in 2009?


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 4, 2013)

Maltin said:


> Here's a document that the Information Commissioner produced in 2009. Not sure if they've updated it since.
> 
> http://www.ico.org.uk/for_organisat...on/SCANNING_DEVICES_IN_PUBS_AND_CLUBS_V1.ashx
> 
> They and other documents I've seen suggest the devices are mainly to check for underage drinkers. I'm happy if that's what pubs and clubs want to use them for but blanket use to identify and track everyone (that the police and licensing authorities seem to want to push) doesn't sit right with me.


 
That was given as initial reason. But showing ID on request to prove you are not underage is not unreasonable. Ive seen it happen in shops. But shops do not ask for it to be scanned. To have it scanned and kept is not reasonable.

From what posters have put up here looks to me like this has never been thought through properly. Like CCTV. Then after a while police/ councils regard it as normal to request it.

What happens then is that over time there is "mission creep". Like the CCTV for congestion charge. People were promised that this was only to check people had paid. Know police have full access to it.


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 4, 2013)

editor said:


> It'a a bit of both. Brixton has increasingly been targeted by professional bag/phone thieves for some time. They've even been cunning enough to pay into big gigs to do their stealing - remember the thefts from the Carter USM Academy gigs in 2009?


 
Its also a problem in the lunchtime pubs in West End. People go out of there offices to get lunch in a pub. The thieves target the pubs at this time. Or the after work drinkers between 6 and 7.

Does not mean that these pubs make everyone scan ID. Would not be good for business.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Apr 4, 2013)

Gramsci said:


> Its also a problem in the lunchtime pubs in West End. People go out of there offices to get lunch in a pub. The thieves target the pubs at this time. Or the after work drinkers between 6 and 7.
> 
> Does not mean that these pubs make everyone scan ID. Would not be good for business.


 
I work in a uni and the pubs around there are chronic for it.

Some of the students are incredibly naive about it mind you.


----------



## critical1 (Apr 5, 2013)

The manufacturer claims that "Clubscan is voluntary: You are not obliged to permit a venue to scan your identification through clubscan".[5] It is unclear how this might interact with a club's right to refuse entry.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clubscan


----------



## Kanda (Apr 5, 2013)

It's not that unclear at all tbh.. if it's a requirement of their licence, you aint getting in.


----------



## Brixton Hatter (Apr 5, 2013)

laughalot said:


> No offence taken BrixtonHatter......feel good you are going to investicate this further...big hug to you...


We have machine-gunned the authorities (Lambeth, police etc) with emails and FOI requests about this, including whether anyone has a policy on the use of ID scanners, or if there are any governance arrangements. 

I'll report back if we get any replies.


----------



## Giles (Apr 5, 2013)

Gramsci said:


> That was given as initial reason. But showing ID on request to prove you are not underage is not unreasonable. Ive seen it happen in shops. But shops do not ask for it to be scanned. To have it scanned and kept is not reasonable.
> 
> From what posters have put up here looks to me like this has never been thought through properly. Like CCTV. Then after a while police/ councils regard it as normal to request it.
> 
> What happens then is that over time there is "mission creep". Like the CCTV for congestion charge. People were promised that this was only to check people had paid. Know police have full access to it.


 
It's not about ID'ing underage drinkers at all, really. I mean, if someone IS underage, they're hardly going to produce ID at the door that confirms that they are underage, are they?

They either won't get let in cos the door staff think they look too young and they can't produce anything to say they're 18, or else they have a convincing enough fake to get in, in which case scanning it won't make a difference.

But combined with decent CCTV, including a recording of everyone swiping their IDs as they enter, it will mean that after something bad happens, it might be possible to trace "bloke in red shirt who glassed somebody and then legged it" back to the scan of his driving licence or whatever he showed coming in.

Are they just scanning images of ID for use later on if there is trouble? Or are these systems linked to some central database?

Giles..


----------



## ddraig (Apr 5, 2013)

marketing and profiling of customers too obv


----------



## Giles (Apr 5, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> What do you do if you've been bag-snatched and want a pint?


 
Once everyone is being tracked by "the system" all the time, there will be no bag-snatchers, so no need to worry


----------



## editor (Apr 23, 2013)

I've posted up an update here (with thanks from an urbanite)
http://www.brixtonbuzz.com/2013/04/club-photo-id-scanners-your-information-and-the-law-update/


----------



## Brixton Hatter (Jun 19, 2013)

Some time ago I submitted an FOI request on this to the Met and to Lambeth Council. Lambeth still havent replied properly, but the Met have.

They basically wash their hands of all responsibility saying businesses use it voluntarily...then go on to say a small number of venues (3) have been forced to use it as part of their licence. They have no policies on its use apparently.

And they admit - as ddraig suggested - that venues use it for marketing/profiling as well as for security.

They refer to a case study from Devon & Cornwall Police that suggests it reduces crime. I'll see if I can attach that somehow. [Edit: I can't as it's too large. Can't cut & paste it either...basically they used ID scanners in Newquay to stop underage people getting into bars etc when they'd finished their exams and gone to celebrate. Completely different context ]





> Dear Mr Hatter
> 
> *Freedom of Information Request Reference No: 2013040000328*
> 
> ...


----------



## laughalot (Jun 19, 2013)

Well done Brixton Hatter.....just for the record....club 414 did register the day our scanner was installed and before using it with 'information commissioners office'


----------



## Brixton Hatter (Jun 20, 2013)

I am more concerned with what Lambeth have to say about this - and I am still pursuing it. We can't have this ID system creeping in all over the place with no-one taking any responsibility for it.


----------



## pardon (Jul 29, 2013)

thanks to everyone who contributed to this thread...


----------



## porno thieving gypsy (Jul 30, 2013)

Brixton Club House - now known as The Lambeth (place above KFC) now ask for ID...


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## editor (Jul 30, 2013)

porno thieving gypsy said:


> Brixton Club House - now known as The Lambeth (place above KFC) now ask for ID...


 
Do they scan it, or just ask for ID to be produced?


----------



## porno thieving gypsy (Jul 30, 2013)

Just checked with the crew I went with and you only had to show ID - they didn't scan it (I managed to go through without being asked, but everyone else was).


----------



## pardon (Jul 30, 2013)

porno thieving gypsy said:


> Just checked with the crew I went with and you only had to show ID - they didn't scan it (I managed to go through without being asked, but everyone else was).



Providing party organisers notify you in advance I don't have an issue showing ID if that is necessary, there is a big difference between that and inserting your id into a data store, taking a photo of you and holding it forever while possibly sharing it with the authorities or 3rd parties.


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## porno thieving gypsy (Jul 30, 2013)

Agreed - although just to say this was not notified in advance, we know the promoters and it was announced as policy on the day. It was also a ticketed event...


----------



## editor (Dec 30, 2015)

I'm updating this guide now and its growing depressingly longer.








The Prince Of Wales now requires full photo ID as a condition of entry
The Albert has a random checking policy
Phonox does the full photo scan
Brixton JAMM - photo ID on weekends

Anywhere else?

No ID, No Entry. Brixton clubs demanding Photo ID and ID scans as a condition of entry


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Dec 30, 2015)

Are market house carrying this out at weekends? I've never seen it happening....


----------



## editor (Dec 30, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Are market house carrying this out at weekends? I've never seen it happening....


Yep, I've seen them checking ID, although no scanning and not for everyone. It seems to depend on the bouncer.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Dec 30, 2015)

editor said:


> Yep, I've seen them checking ID, although no scanning and not for everyone. It seems to depend on the bouncer.



I never knew that....


----------



## editor (Dec 30, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> I never knew that....


I think with them it's more an age checking thing, like the Satay next door.


----------



## Mr Retro (Dec 30, 2015)

editor said:


> I'm updating this guide now and its growing depressingly longer.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Is this for everybody no matter how old they look, like in the US?


----------



## editor (Dec 30, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> Is this for everybody no matter how old they look, like in the US?


Yes. In most instances, it has nothing to do with age. I've seen a 50+ year old turned away from the Prince.


----------



## Winot (Dec 30, 2015)

And our friends in their mid-40s were turned away from the Dogstar a few weeks ago. 

By contrast, I can confirm no ID check at all at Market House a few weeks back (on a Friday). Mind you I am an old fucker.


----------



## editor (Dec 30, 2015)

Winot said:


> And our friends in their mid-40s were turned away from the Dogstar a few weeks ago.
> 
> By contrast, I can confirm no ID check at all at Market House a few weeks back (on a Friday). Mind you I am an old fucker.


The Dogstar ID Scan is an enforced condition of their licence and it doesn't matter how ancient you are: if you haven't got valid ID you won't get in.


----------



## Winot (Dec 30, 2015)

editor said:


> The Dogstar ID Scan is an enforced condition of their licence and it doesn't matter how ancient you are: if you haven't got valid ID you won't get in.



Interestingly, I walked in without any checks at about 8.45pm. Does it apply only after a certain time, or were they just being slack?


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## ddraig (Dec 30, 2015)

Prob after certain time


----------



## editor (Dec 30, 2015)

Winot said:


> Interestingly, I walked in without any checks at about 8.45pm. Does it apply only after a certain time, or were they just being slack?


Yes, it usually cuts in after 10pm (it's free entry before then).


----------



## SpamMisery (Dec 30, 2015)

I don't mind it. If its the scan which records the ID, then combined with CCTV it helps identify dickheads who bottle someone then slip away


----------



## BigMoaner (Dec 30, 2015)

What's the logic? Get up to no good, they can identify you?


----------



## Maharani (Dec 30, 2015)

BigMoaner said:


> What's the logic? Get up to no good, they can identify you?


Thought it might be to do with the threat of terrorism perhaps.


----------



## editor (Dec 30, 2015)

A local adds on FB:


> I hate these machines . Why can't I go out in Brixton anymore and just have a Pint and enjoy myself without someone telling me to remove my Tam or have to produce ID just to walk into a Pub . A passport is probably one of your most important documents . Its not something you should be carrying around with you when your out on the tiles . Anyway if they think it improves the area they're wrong . The drunkenness I see going on in Brixton nowadays is faaaar worse than when I hung round there back in the 90's .



I've also got real concerns about the safety of the data these private companies are scooping up and how individuals can find themselves banned from multiple venues for nothing more than pissing off a bouncer. 

Concerns grow over the rise of compulsory ID scanning in pubs, clubs and venues


----------



## editor (Dec 30, 2015)

Maharani said:


> Thought it might be to do with the threat of terrorism perhaps.


Nothing to do with terrorism, really. Some venues were compelled to install scanning ID machines in response to gangs of pickpockets and phone thieves moving into Brixton - with so many cash-laden people staggering around blind drunk in clubs there's easy pickings to be had. 

That said I recently saw a phone thief get nabbed in a well known club and he was using fake ID to get past the scan machine.


----------



## Maharani (Dec 30, 2015)

editor said:


> Nothing to do with terrorism, really. Some venues were compelled to install scanning ID machines in response to gangs of pickpockets and phone thieves moving into Brixton - with so many cash-laden people staggering around blind drunk in clubs there's easy pickings to be had.
> 
> That said I recently saw a phone thief get nabbed in a well known club and he was using fake ID to get past the scan machine.


Oh I see.


----------



## CH1 (Dec 31, 2015)

editor said:


> Nothing to do with terrorism, really. Some venues were compelled to install scanning ID machines in response to gangs of pickpockets and phone thieves moving into Brixton - with so many cash-laden people staggering around blind drunk in clubs there's easy pickings to be had.
> 
> That said I recently saw a phone thief get nabbed in a well known club and he was using fake ID to get past the scan machine.


How did it become apparent that he was using a fake ID?

Just asking - I'm not going to try it at home!


----------



## editor (Dec 31, 2015)

CH1 said:


> How did it become apparent that he was using a fake ID?
> 
> Just asking - I'm not going to try it at home!


They searched him and found loads of fake ID documents.


----------



## Mr Retro (Dec 31, 2015)

editor said:


> Nothing to do with terrorism, really. Some venues were compelled to install scanning ID machines in response to gangs of pickpockets and phone thieves moving into Brixton - with so many cash-laden people staggering around blind drunk in clubs there's easy pickings to be had.


It's nonsensical to me that this is the response to a the odd drunken clown getting his phone nicked. What an over the top response.

If a pickpocket had come into the Canterbury the staff there would see them from a mile away. But then that was a real pub with good staff who cared for and looked out for their customers. Imagine Pat on the old Albert needing an ID scanning machine?


----------



## Winot (Dec 31, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> It's nonsensical to me that this is the response to a the odd drunken clown getting his phone nicked. What an over the top response.
> 
> If a pickpocket had come into the Canterbury the staff there would see them from a mile away. But then that was a real pub with good staff who cared for and looked out for their customers. Imagine Pat on the old Albert needing an ID scanning machine?



Agreed but as pointed out upthread it's imposed on the venues. Not their choice.


----------



## Mr Retro (Dec 31, 2015)

Winot said:


> Agreed but as pointed out upthread it's imposed on the venues. Not their choice.


Ah - missed that.


----------



## editor (Dec 31, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> Imagine Pat on the old Albert needing an ID scanning machine?


I'm just imagining her face if she was told to install one


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Dec 31, 2015)

I think the ID thing is ultimately part of an instinctive urge to control everyone that seemingly comes with the current mono-culture of those in power. They don't understand nightclubs, at all, they don't have the vaguest idea how exactly this will make them safer, but it instinctively feels like a good idea to them.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Dec 31, 2015)

I'm sure there are commercial interests involved. This equipment doesn't come cheap.


----------



## Casaubon (Jan 2, 2016)

editor said:


> I'm just imagining her face if she was told to install one


Pat could forensically scan the entire pub with a couple of glances. 
I think she may have had x-ray vision to see into the toilets.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Jan 2, 2016)

Casaubon said:


> Pat could forensically scan the entire pub with a couple of glances.
> I think she may have had x-ray vision to see into the toilets.



I'm sure she did. She collared me 'induldging' twice.....and threw me out....


----------



## editor (Jan 2, 2016)

I liked the way she dispensed firm but fair retribution for offences committed in her pub, with bans measured in days or weeks depending on multiple factors. And she rarely forgot a face.


----------



## peterkro (Jan 2, 2016)

Casaubon said:


> Pat could forensically scan the entire pub with a couple of glances.
> I think she may have had x-ray vision to see into the toilets.


I got caught bringing in a couple of cans of pils by Pat, after a battering from her umbrella I decided not to do that again.


----------



## Voley (Jan 2, 2016)

editor said:
			
		

> And she rarely forgot a face.



She certainly didn't. I was hardly a regular there but my brother turned up really fucked once and she was iffy on serving him. I wondered whether my 'It's OK, he's with me' would suffice, but it did.


----------



## isvicthere? (Jan 2, 2016)

Ah, Pat. Is it 14 years now?


----------



## Voley (Jan 2, 2016)

14 years? Fucking hell!


----------



## Mattym (Jan 2, 2016)

Electric Brixton had it splashed all over the tickets that photo id was required for the Autechre night, but nobody asked for any on entry.


----------



## friendofdorothy (Jan 2, 2016)

SpamMisery said:


> I don't mind it. If its the scan which records the ID, then combined with CCTV it helps identify dickheads who bottle someone then slip away


 I do. I dont have any ID -why would I? I haven't had to prove my age in over 30yrs, I don't drive and I refuse to take my passport to go to fucking pub in Brixton. I have very serious concerns about my privacy and what these venues are doing with all this scanned data - how do they store it and what do they do with it? - it seems to be uncontrolled, unregulated and possibly open to fraud or abuse to me.  

I don't like all this Big Brother stuff - I instinctively mistrust it. Do the police ever use this data to track down criminals?   Is there any proof all this surveilance is making venues safer or stopping antisocial behaviour? The behaviour on the streets of Brixton late night appals me.

It means I am very limited in where I can go late at night now, I no longer just pop into the Albert, etc, for a late one on the way home for instance. I think its tough on us older drunks.


----------



## Gramsci (Jan 2, 2016)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I'm sure there are commercial interests involved. This equipment doesn't come cheap.



Yes there are other commercial interests. Using info gained for ID purposes for marketing.

Venues are supposed to put signs up to say they may use ones data for marketing as well as proof of ID

This company that supplies ID scanning equipment sells it on its usefulness to also to collect info and marketing data. Very intrusive imo.


----------



## Casaubon (Jan 3, 2016)

editor said:


> I liked the way she dispensed firm but fair retribution for offences committed in her pub, with bans measured in days or weeks depending on multiple factors. And she rarely forgot a face.


She banned her own son. Twice. 
(I still feel guilty about one of these. I'd just handed him a spliff when Pat, alerted by her spidey-senses, appeared in the garden.)


----------



## editor (Jan 3, 2016)

Gramsci said:


> Yes there are other commercial interests. Using info gained for ID purposes for marketing.
> 
> Venues are supposed to put signs up to say they may use ones data for marketing as well as proof of ID
> 
> This company that supplies ID scanning equipment sells it on its usefulness to also to collect info and marketing data. Very intrusive imo.


I find it deeply worrying: 


> *Male/Female ratio – A balanced venue is a profitable venue.
> Average Age – Who am I targeting?
> Average Entry Time – Too many staff when it’s quiet? Do I need promotions to increase early trade?
> Top postcodes – One press of a button ScanNET can print your address labels.
> ...


----------



## Tom Kenny (Oct 3, 2016)

Belushi said:


> The only photo ID I have is my passport and there's no way I want to take that out with me when I'm out drinking.



Carry the Civilian Card PASS 18+ photo ID card and leave your passport safely at home. The PASS card is specifically designed to be a secure, affordable, safe-to-lose, easy-to-replace means of ID and proof-of-age when accessing age-restricted products, services & premises. More information at civiliancard.com 

My interest: I own and manage Civilian Card.


----------



## editor (Oct 3, 2016)

Tom Kenny said:


> Carry the Civilian Card PASS 18+ photo ID card and leave your passport safely at home. The PASS card is specifically designed to be a secure, affordable, safe-to-lose, easy-to-replace means of ID and proof-of-age when accessing age-restricted products, services & premises. More information at civiliancard.com
> 
> My interest: I own and manage Civilian Card.


And how much does one of these things cost and how much profit do you make out of it?


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 3, 2016)

Tom Kenny said:


> Carry the Civilian Card PASS 18+ photo ID card and leave your passport safely at home. The PASS card is specifically designed to be a secure, affordable, safe-to-lose, easy-to-replace means of ID and proof-of-age when accessing age-restricted products, services & premises. More information at civiliancard.com
> 
> My interest: I own and manage Civilian Card.





> To help keep the fee as low as possible we ask your permission to send you information about products and services relevant to young people, and to share your data with other carefully selected organisations.







> *Fees*
> Fees are shown inclusive of VAT and payable by debit card, credit card or PayPal during the online application process.
> 
> Standard application fee, 10-day service £23
> ...


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 3, 2016)

Gramsci said:


> This company that supplies ID scanning equipment sells it on its usefulness to also to collect info and marketing data. Very intrusive imo.



See above - seems to be a recurring feature of such outfits


----------



## Tom Kenny (Oct 3, 2016)

editor said:


> And how much does one of these things cost and how much profit do you make out of it?


*Fees*
Fees are shown inclusive of VAT and payable by debit card, credit card or PayPal during the online application process.

Standard application fee, 10-day service £23
Express application supplementary fee, 5-day service £5
Spare or replacement card when ordered together with initial application £10
Spare or replacement card when ordered separately after initial application £13
Postage & packing £1.95

However we usually make discount codes available online and via distribution partners. Enter discount code OCT400 at online checkout when prompted and save £4; that particular code expires on 31 October 2016.

We might introduce a discount code for Urban 75 users once I've gotten to know the forum a bit better.

Like most businesses we make a profit by earning revenues which exceed our costs of production(!), but additionally the company has in the past received EU funding.

The business earns revenue in 3 ways:

(1) card application fees: this is the bulk of our revenue;

(2) affiliate marketing fees: this is revenue that we receive when one of our customers purchases a third party product or service that we have advertised;

(3) data sales: sales of customer data to corporate third parties.

Customers are free to opt out of affiliate marketing and data sales at any stage. The company is registered with the Information Commissioner's Office (ICO) and audited regularly by the Chartered Trading Standards Institute whose logo appears on the card, alongside other official logos and security features.


----------



## Tom Kenny (Oct 3, 2016)

Belushi said:


> The only photo ID I have is my passport and there's no way I want to take that out with me when I'm out drinking.



Wise man: UK Home Office stats show that young adults are x3 more likely to lose their passport than older ones. The reason is that so many people carry them on a day to day basis to use as ID within the UK.

Carry a Civilian Card PASS 18+ photo ID card instead. It's affordable, secure photo ID and proof-of-age that means you can get into ID-only pubs, clubs & bars whilst leaving your passport or other high-value ID safe at home when you go out.

I don't want to spam the forum but you can find out more about it at civiliancard.com

My interest: I own and run Civilian Card.


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## Tom Kenny (Oct 3, 2016)

Gramsci said:


> Like CCTV this is being encouraged without evidence that it stops crime.


Here's some fairly recent evidence from Australia: Kings cross id scanners help fight crime 

UK police officers working in this field have told me informally that similar or better results have been achieved in the UK.


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## editor (Oct 3, 2016)

Tom Kenny said:


> Wise man: UK Home Office stats show that young adults are x3 more likely to lose their passport than older ones. The reason is that so many people carry them on a day to day basis to use as ID within the UK.
> 
> Carry a Civilian Card PASS 18+ photo ID card instead. It's affordable, secure photo ID and proof-of-age that means you can get into ID-only pubs, clubs & bars whilst leaving your passport or other high-value ID safe at home when you go out.
> 
> ...


You are getting very spammy now. We're not here to promote your business.


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## Nanker Phelge (Oct 3, 2016)

editor said:


> You are getting very spammy now. We're not here to promote your business.



There goes the U75 discount....


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## Tom Kenny (Oct 3, 2016)

Nanker Phelge said:


> There goes the U75 discount....



I'm sorry you feel that way. I've done my best to be transparent and helpful, but then I would say that.

By way of amends, I've set up discount code URBAN750 at civiliancard.com for a limited period.

Enter that code at online checkout when prompted, and get a whopping £7.50 off a Civilian Card PASS 18+ photo ID card.

Friends again?


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## editor (Oct 3, 2016)

Tom Kenny said:


> I'm sorry you feel that way. I've done my best to be transparent and helpful, but then I would say that.
> 
> By way of amends, I've set up discount code URBAN750 at civiliancard.com for a limited period.
> 
> ...


Perhaps you're not aware of the urban75 rules? The ones you're supposed to read before you came on here (and on Brixton Buzz) to relentlessly plug your own commercial project. 


> *No advertising.* We are not interested in hearing about your company/website/club/gig/song/product. This is a non-profit, community discussion forum, not a free advertising resource and offenders will be banned.
> You may advertise gigs/events/parties but you *must* obtain permission from a moderator first. No exceptions. Note that charity or free events are the most likely to be accepted. Next come those for which there is a big discount for Urban75 members. If you're trying to plug a straightforward commercial event, don't bother, no matter how many people you think might be interested.
> The Brixton Noticeboard forum is an exception to the above. Guidelines can be found in that forum.


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## IC3D (Oct 3, 2016)




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## Tom Kenny (Oct 3, 2016)

editor said:


> Perhaps you're not aware of the urban75 rules? The ones you're supposed to read before you came on here (and on Brixton Buzz) to relentlessly plug your own commercial project.


Sorry - no I wasn't. TBH I jumped straight in without reading the rules 

I'll do my best to take more care in future. The discount code URBAN750 will still work though.

Have a nice evening. Bye for now.


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## DaveCinzano (Oct 3, 2016)

Well, that went well


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## editor (Oct 3, 2016)

Tom Kenny said:


> Sorry - no I wasn't. TBH I jumped straight in without reading the rules
> 
> I'll do my best to take more care in future. The discount code URBAN750 will still work though.
> 
> Have a nice evening. Bye for now.


Will you fucking stop promoting your opportunistic business?


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## Nanker Phelge (Oct 3, 2016)

C'mon...the geezer said sorry...haha


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## Gramsci (Oct 3, 2016)

Tom Kenny said:


> Here's some fairly recent evidence from Australia: Kings cross id scanners help fight crime
> 
> UK police officers working in this field have told me informally that similar or better results have been achieved in the UK.



The evidence is all from police and Australian government website. I am a bit of a sceptic when police say this. They would say this wouldn’t they.

There are civil liberty issues here. Balancing public safety with the authorities knowing where we go. Showing id for age purposes is one thing. Having it recorded is another.


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## friendofdorothy (Oct 3, 2016)

Tom Kenny said:


> I'm sorry you feel that way. I've done my best to be transparent and helpful, but then I would say that.
> 
> By way of amends, I've set up discount code URBAN750 at civiliancard.com for a limited period.
> 
> ...


 Will it say my age/dob on it? The ones I've looked at online do. I'm not keen on telling everyone I'm the same age as their gran.


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## friendofdorothy (Oct 3, 2016)

Gramsci said:


> The evidence is all from police and Australian government website. I am a bit of a sceptic when police say this. They would say this wouldn’t they.
> 
> There are civil liberty issues here. Balancing public safety with the authorities knowing where we go. Showing id for age purposes is one thing. Having it recorded is another.


I want to know if we as the British public aren't generally required to prove who we are, why does the republic of brixton need it?


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## editor (Oct 3, 2016)

friendofdorothy said:


> Will it say my age/dob on it? The ones I've looked at online do. I'm not keen on telling everyone I'm the same age as their gran.


Some flash your age up in fucking huge numbers on a screen visible by everyone in the queue behind you as they;re scanned in. It varies from machine to machine. The whole club ID scanning system is hateful and of dubious worth when balanced with privacy and database concerns.


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## editor (Oct 3, 2016)

Like this:







F U C K  O F F


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## Gramsci (Oct 3, 2016)

friendofdorothy said:


> I want to know if we as the British public aren't generally required to prove who we are, why does the republic of brixton need it?



My concern is that this is part of a slippery slope. The last Labour government failed in its bid to make everyone have an ID card. ( Remember Blunkett enthusing about this. Getting one to swipe it every time one went to GP is an example he gave.) Having to show ID starts to become compulsory in incremental way instead. 

The business offering to make an ID card for people is imo part of the slippery slope.


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## friendofdorothy (Oct 3, 2016)

Gramsci said:


> My concern is that this is part of a slippery slope. The last Labour government failed in its bid to make everyone have an ID card. ( Remember Blunkett enthusing about this. Getting one to swipe it every time one went to GP is an example he gave.) Having to show ID starts to become compulsory in incremental way instead.
> 
> The business offering to make an ID card for people is imo part of the slippery slope.


My european colleagues are surprised that we haven't had them since ww2. Now with leaving europe - who knows what will happen.


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## Gramsci (Oct 3, 2016)

friendofdorothy said:


> My european colleagues are surprised that we haven't had them since ww2. Now with leaving europe - who knows what will happen.



We can thank Clarence Willcock for that. Back in 1950 he was stopped by police and they demanded he show them his identity card. He refused. The case went to the High Court and he won. Shortly after the ID card system was ended.

This was a good example of mission creep. An ID card brought in during war for security and rationing purposes continued to operate after the war with the police regarding it as there right to demand to see a persons identity card.


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## CH1 (Oct 4, 2016)

Gramsci said:


> We can thank Clarence Willcock for that. Back in 1950 he was stopped by police and they demanded he show them his identity card. He refused. The case went to the High Court and he won. Shortly after the ID card system was ended.
> 
> This was a good example of mission creep. An ID card brought in during war for security and rationing purposes continued to operate after the war with the police regarding it as there right to demand to see a persons identity card.


Thanks for this interesting piece of history. As a life-long Liberal I'm quite proud of Clarence Wilcok's cockiness - and also peased to see he garnered a lot of support from m'learned friends at the Bar. In 1951.

I think the politics of this are no longer applicable though. Everyone who drives needs a licence, and can be asked to produce it and their insurance at random by the police.

Everyone who opens a bank account currently is required to produce their passport if they don't have a driving licence. Passports cost £70 and rising.

I could go on - because I believe the NHS bears a lot of costs of treating people who would have to pay in other countries - simply because the NHS is not geared up to checking entitlement.

The effect of this is visible in local surgeries I venture to suggest - and is one of the reasons that GP surgeries claim to be unable to give appointments.


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## Tom Kenny (Oct 4, 2016)

friendofdorothy said:


> Will it say my age/dob on it? The ones I've looked at online do. I'm not keen on telling everyone I'm the same age as their gran.


The card states your name, date of birth and shows your passport photo. If you're over 18 years of age then it says "18+" in the bottom right hand corner.

There's a picture of one on our home page, and we'll put more on our Instagram later today.


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## Nanker Phelge (Oct 4, 2016)

Lol


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## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Oct 4, 2016)

Tom Kenny said:


> The card states your name, date of birth and shows your passport photo. If you're over 18 years of age then it says "18+" in the bottom right hand corner.
> 
> There's a picture of one on our home page, and we'll put more on our Instagram later today.



What happens when some bouncer goes 'what the fuck is that' and laughs in your face?


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## Tom Kenny (Oct 4, 2016)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> What happens when some bouncer goes 'what the fuck is that' and laughs in your face?


The Proof of Age Standards Scheme (PASS) - under whose auspices Civilian Card operates - is endorsed by the Securities Industry Authority (SIA) which regulates door staff. The SIA officially encourages door staff to accept the PASS card, as do the police, Home Office and Chartered Trading Standards Institute.

The card comes with a money-back guarantee. In the unlikely event that it is declined, simply return it to us and we will refund the application fee. Conditions apply; check website for details.


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## Nanker Phelge (Oct 4, 2016)

He liked it so much he bought the company...


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## editor (Oct 4, 2016)

Tom Kenny said:


> The Proof of Age Standards Scheme (PASS) - under whose auspices Civilian Card operates - is endorsed by the Securities Industry Authority (SIA) which regulates door staff. The SIA officially encourages door staff to accept the PASS card, as do the police, Home Office and Chartered Trading Standards Institute.
> 
> The card comes with a money-back guarantee. In the unlikely event that it is declined, simply return it to us and we will refund the application fee. Conditions apply; check website for details.


Will you refund the disappointment from a missed night out?


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## Rushy (Oct 4, 2016)




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## Mr Retro (Oct 4, 2016)

friendofdorothy said:


> My european colleagues are surprised that we haven't had them since ww2. Now with leaving europe - who knows what will happen.


When I lived in Amsterdam the Dutch were also surprised we didn't have them. You are required to carry one at all times. For us that meant carrying our passports as we couldn't get Dutch ID cards. Which we never did carry. Was stopped once and luckily my wife was at home and shot down to where I was with my passport. Otherwise I was going to be arrested for being unable to identify myself. 

Ended up getting a €480 fine. Not sure what portion was for no ID coz I was also driving a scooter without a licence, through a restricted area. I was rushing to the pub. Expensive fucking pint that was.


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## Tom Kenny (Oct 4, 2016)

editor said:


> Will you refund the disappointment from a missed night out?


Neither the passport office nor the DVLA compensate their customers in the way that you suggest, and nor does Civilian Card.

In fact no form of ID - passport and driving licence included - provides a legal entitlement to admission or service, which are always at the venue operator's discretion.


ED: SPAM SPAM SPAM REMOVED


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## Nanker Phelge (Oct 4, 2016)

Ha ha ha.....this one has some gumption!!!


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## editor (Oct 4, 2016)

Tom Kenny said:


> Neither the passport office nor the DVLA compensate their customers in the way that you suggest, and nor does Civilian Card.


But that is the whole point of your spammy card. Drivers' licenses and passports have actual uses.


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## Nanker Phelge (Oct 4, 2016)

...but people don't like to take them out for fear of losing them on their drunken rambling chaotic nights.....


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## Gramsci (Oct 4, 2016)

How is it I used to go out back in 80s without needing this kind of ID? 

I don't remember feeling unsafe.


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## Tom Kenny (Oct 4, 2016)

editor said:


> But that is the whole point of your spammy card. Drivers' licenses and passports have actual uses.


The point of the card is to provide legally-valid, secure, affordable and widely-accepted means of assuring the cardholder's ID and age; thereby empowering young people and protecting responsible venue operators & retailers.

That is its "actual use".


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## editor (Oct 4, 2016)

Nanker Phelge said:


> ...but people don't like to take them out for fear of losing them on their drunken rambling chaotic nights.....


Real tears here.


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## editor (Oct 4, 2016)

Tom Kenny said:


> The point of the card is to provide legally-valid, secure, affordable and widely-accepted means of assuring the cardholder's ID and age; thereby empowering young people and protecting responsible venue operators & retailers.
> 
> That is its "actual use".


Gosh, so you're actually "_empowering young people_"?  What a selfless hero you are.


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## Nanker Phelge (Oct 4, 2016)

editor said:


> Real tears here.



Hey....I aint creating this stupid shit....this stupid shit is just stupid shit feeding stupid shit...I don't go to venues that require ID.


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## Gramsci (Oct 4, 2016)

CH1 said:


> Thanks for this interesting piece of history. As a life-long Liberal I'm quite proud of Clarence Wilcok's cockiness - and also peased to see he garnered a lot of support from m'learned friends at the Bar. In 1951.
> 
> I think the politics of this are no longer applicable though. Everyone who drives needs a licence, and can be asked to produce it and their insurance at random by the police.
> 
> ...



I think it still applicable. 

The wartime ID was used to prove your right to rations Postwar with the building of the Welfare State the existing ID would have proved useful. 

It's about politics. The establishment in this country,you are right to mention the judges, were liberal. In the sense that the individual rights should be protected from the state This still holds now. 

Back in WW1 ID was also put forward. It was considered something the Prussians did. 

The use of ID in WW2 was about the State being on a war footing. Being able to manage the whole population. The State is not a benign institution. It is coercive. The further extension of ID into people's lives should be questioned.


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## Gramsci (Oct 4, 2016)

CH1 said:


> Thanks for this interesting piece of history. As a life-long Liberal I'm quite proud of Clarence Wilcok's cockiness - and also peased to see he garnered a lot of support from m'learned friends at the Bar. In 1951.
> 
> I think the politics of this are no longer applicable though. Everyone who drives needs a licence, and can be asked to produce it and their insurance at random by the police.
> 
> ...



Issue of NHS. 

This comes up periodically about immigrants. Whether GPs should question patients visa or asylum status. Most doctors in London are loath to do this. There first thing is to heal people. Not grass them up to immigration authorities or turn them away.


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## Tom Kenny (Oct 4, 2016)

editor said:


> Gosh, so you're actually "_empowering young people_"?  What a selfless hero you are.


It's kind of you to think that, but I'm no hero: I'm in this business to turn a profit.

Happily for Civilian Card's customers and society at large, we find that the best way to do so is by providing products & services that meet our customers' needs better, faster or cheaper than those of our competitors.

Adam Smith's "invisible hand" at work, if you will.


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## Brixton Hatter (Oct 4, 2016)

Gramsci said:


> My concern is that this is part of a slippery slope. The last Labour government failed in its bid to make everyone have an ID card. ( Remember Blunkett enthusing about this. Getting one to swipe it every time one went to GP is an example he gave.) Having to show ID starts to become compulsory in incremental way instead.


What's actually happening is the Govt is sort of introducing ID cards by stealth. Technically you don't need an ID card, but increasingly public services are only available online, which requires you to prove your ID and get yourself added to a database. In fact, the entire infrastructure for an ID card system basically already exists: everything except the card itself.


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## Gramsci (Oct 4, 2016)

Tom Kenny said:


> The point of the card is to provide legally-valid, secure, affordable and widely-accepted means of assuring the cardholder's ID and age; thereby empowering young people and protecting responsible venue operators & retailers.
> 
> That is its "actual use".



Now ur annoying me This has nothing to do with" empowering " young people. If you want to make money out of this that's up to you. But you are not providing a social service. You aren't empowering young people.


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## editor (Oct 4, 2016)

Tom Kenny said:


> It's kind of you to think that, but I'm no hero: I'm in this business to turn a profit.
> 
> Happily for Civilian Card's customers and society at large, we find that the best way to do so is by providing products & services that meet our customers' needs better, faster or cheaper than those of our competitors.


You're just in it for your own personal gain so save the pathetic  'empowering' bullshit please.


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## T & P (Oct 4, 2016)

TBF he declared an interest in his first post and was quite open about being the owner of the business. Though perhaps it'd be best for him not to try to put a positive spin on every argument or feedback about the card (the empowering comment being an example) and accept not everyone here is going to like it. He's got some free exposure to his product already, which is more than most other businesses would get.


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## friendofdorothy (Oct 4, 2016)

Tom Kenny said:


> The point of the card is to provide legally-valid, secure, affordable and widely-accepted means of assuring the cardholder's ID and age; thereby empowering young people and protecting responsible venue operators & retailers.


 But I'm not a young person, this isn't empowering me at all. I'm over 50yrs old and I can no longer go drinking in most of brixton late at night. I no longer go to pubs I've drank in for 30yrs - because I don't own any photo ID. Is this the unintended social benefit these responsible venues had in mind? Rather against the 2010 equality act, I think.  'invisible hand' oh do fuck off.



Tom Kenny said:


> Happily for Civilian Card's customers and society at large, we find that the best way to do so is by providing products & services that meet our customers' needs better, faster or cheaper than those of our competitors.



Produce one that doesn't say my date of birth on then. Its more than obvious I'm of age. The card could say I'm over 18, perhaps even say over 25yrs - and charge half the price and I might consider it.


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## editor (Oct 4, 2016)

T & P said:


> TBF he declared an interest in his first post and was quite open about being the owner of the business. Though perhaps it'd be best for him not to try to put a positive spin on every argument or feedback about the card (the empowering comment being an example) and accept not everyone here is going to like it. He's got some free exposure to his product already, which is more than most other businesses would get.


He's pushed his luck to the absolute limit here with his spammy posts, but to claim that he's on some heartfelt mission to 'empower' young people is really taking the piss.


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## editor (Oct 4, 2016)

friendofdorothy said:


> But I'm not a young person, this isn't empowering me at all. I'm over 50yrs old and I can no longer go drinking in most of brixton late at night. I no longer go to pubs I've drank in for 30yrs - because I don't own any photo ID. Is this the unintended social benefit these responsible venues had in mind? Rather against the 2010 equality act, I think.  'invisible hand' oh do fuck off.


Tom wants more of this, he wants every bar, club, restaurant, sports facility and everywhere else to demand ID so he can make more money for himself. He doesn't give a fuck about personal liberties, that's why he tries to spin his card into something that is supposedly 'empowering' for young people when in fact it's part of the process that forces all people to carry around ID. And that's not very empowering at all.


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## Rushy (Oct 4, 2016)

I don't understand why it's an issue for anyone that they should earn money for providing this service? Obviously no one and no organisation is currently motivated to provide it cheaper or for free. And no one is obliged to use it.

Agree it should probably just say over 18,21,25.

I hate the name Civilian Card though. Big turn off. Only armed forces use that term in everyday speak. Sounds horribly officious.

Personally, I've always carried my drivers licence since it was reissued as a card about twenty years ago. But I'd object to *having* to carry it. And I tend to avoid anywhere requiring ID scans these days, for no better reason than that it just feels too controlled and managed.


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## friendofdorothy (Oct 4, 2016)

Am I right in thinking that brixton pubs demanding ID is a requirement of Lambeth licencing?


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## T & P (Oct 4, 2016)

In Spain it has always been compulsory to carry ID at all times, which is not very nice really, though people there have never known any different so don't see it as much of an affront as British people would do if forced.

Having said that the existence of a national ID card makes many tasks from opening bank accounts to age checks to even travelling abroad much simpler. But having to carry it on you at all times is draconian.


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## Rushy (Oct 4, 2016)

friendofdorothy said:


> Am I right in thinking that brixton pubs demanding ID is a requirement of Lambeth licencing?


In some cases. In others they are trying to avoid a review which could impose stricter conditions.


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## editor (Oct 4, 2016)

friendofdorothy said:


> Am I right in thinking that brixton pubs demanding ID is a requirement of Lambeth licencing?


As i understand it, some venues have had Photo ID scanning forced on them for fear of losing their licence/having their hours restricted etc, while some have elected to use it anyway.

Almost all the venues around Brixton ask for some kind of ID on weekends (or randomly ask people coming in, like at the Albert), although a smaller number do the full scanning thing. I'm going to compile an updated list of venues that request ID because it is getting depressingly long now.


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## friendofdorothy (Oct 4, 2016)

Rushy said:


> And no one is obliged to use it.
> <snip>
> Personally, I've always carried my drivers licence


 Well they need some sort of photo ID if they want to go drinking in Brixton then they are obliged.

My over 60s pals have photo ID on their bus passes, but what about anyone over 25 and under 60? Lots of people don't drive and dont travel.


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## friendofdorothy (Oct 4, 2016)

editor said:


> As i understand it, some venues have had Photo ID scanning forced on them for fear of losing their licence/having their hours restricted etc, while some have elected to use it anyway.
> 
> Almost all the venues around Brixton ask for some kind of ID on weekends (or randomly ask people coming in, like at the Albert), although a smaller number do the full scanning thing. I'm going to compile an updated list of venues that request ID because it is getting depressingly long now.


does anyone think this could be illegal under anti age discrimation legislation?  Are other cities / places doing this? Any campaigns against it out there?

Its one thing to ask for proof of age its another to scan your passport to prove who you are - what happens to those scans -is the information commissioner involved in this process?
If police aren't allowed to do this why are doormen of bars allowed to so?


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## editor (Oct 4, 2016)

friendofdorothy said:


> does anyone think this could be illegal under anti age discrimation legislation?  Are other cities / places doing this? Any campaigns against it out there?
> 
> Its one thing to ask for proof of age its another to scan your passport to prove who you are - what happens to those scans -is the information commissioner involved in this process?
> If police aren't allowed to do this why are doormen of bars allowed to so?


It's a mess - just read the comments on Buzz (yes, Ken has spammed that to fuck too):
Concerns grow over the rise of compulsory ID scanning in pubs, clubs and venues


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## Rushy (Oct 4, 2016)

friendofdorothy said:


> Well they need some sort of photo ID if they want to go drinking in Brixton then they are obliged.


No they're not.
a) plenty of places don't require it - I can't actually recall providing ID for a night in Brixton in ages.
b) even if they do need ID, they can produce another type of ID. No one is forcing them to pay for this Civilian Card thing.


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## Brixton Hatter (Oct 4, 2016)

friendofdorothy said:


> Am I right in thinking that brixton pubs demanding ID is a requirement of Lambeth licencing?


IIRC in most cases it's actually the police insisting on it.


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## peterkro (Oct 4, 2016)

friendofdorothy said:


> Well they need some sort of photo ID if they want to go drinking in Brixton then they are obliged.
> 
> My over 60s pals have photo ID on their bus passes, but what about anyone over 25 and under 60? Lots of people don't drive and dont travel.


Probably just muddying the waters but Freedoms Passes are available to others than us old fogeys and I believe they all look the same so you could be 16 and have a Freedom Pass.


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## SpamMisery (Oct 4, 2016)

Being asked for ID has never bothered me personally. Never really understood why people get so angry about the idea.


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## friendofdorothy (Oct 4, 2016)

Rushy said:


> No they're not.
> a) plenty of places don't require it - I can't actually recall providing ID for a night in Brixton in ages.
> b) even if they do need ID, they can produce another type of ID. No one is forcing them to pay for this Civilian Card thing.



a)  I was asked for ID before 8pm at the Effra Social once - fortunately he let me in without, but it really pissed me off. I tended to avoid late night Brixton - I don't want to walk down there just on the off chance that I'll be sent home. It used to be just the Dog star and some other places I didn't want to go to anyway, but how long before Herne Hill pubs and other places demand them.

b)  Produce what type of ID? - I don't mean the particular brand of PASS ID card, I mean what other type of ID - I have credit cards, TU membership card and an Iceland loyalty card - none of them have photos, what would you suggest?


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## friendofdorothy (Oct 4, 2016)

Brixton Hatter said:


> IIRC in most cases it's actually the police insisting on it.


Bit rich considering they can't demand to scan your passport, so they demand pubs do it for them. Its worse than suss.


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## friendofdorothy (Oct 4, 2016)

SpamMisery said:


> Being asked for ID has never bothered me personally. Never really understood why people get so angry about the idea.


Apart from it being a stalkers fucking dream? I can see all sorts of personal safety issues here. What if the doorman is hitting on a customer - he then has access to her home address and other info.

and they can use the details for all that crap marketing stuff.  

Some of us value our privacy.  I come from a more paranoid age where the idea of someone or worse the govt keeping data on all your clubbing /pubbing habits was a creepy nightmare at the very least.


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## friendofdorothy (Oct 4, 2016)

peterkro said:


> Probably just muddying the waters but Freedoms Passes are available to others than us old fogeys and I believe they all look the same so you could be 16 and have a Freedom Pass.


Over 60s have a free bus pass - don't think thats the same as a freedom pass - my mates use it as age ID to get in for free swimming etc.


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## editor (Oct 4, 2016)

friendofdorothy said:


> b)  Produce what type of ID? - I don't mean the particular brand of PASS ID card, I mean what other type of ID - I have credit cards, TU membership card and an Iceland loyalty card - none of them have photos, what would you suggest?


It usually has to be accredited photo ID, so even my NUJ photo card isn't enough.


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## editor (Oct 4, 2016)

SpamMisery said:


> Being asked for ID has never bothered me personally. Never really understood why people get so angry about the idea.


I don't supposed you care much about privacy, personal freedom or having to entrust your personal information to databases that could be hacked/sold or used for nefarious purposes either. Or the cost of hassle/expense of forgetting it/losing it.

All those silly people worrying their silly little heads about such trifling matters, eh? So long as you don't have a problem with it, there must be nothing wrong with the idea!


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## SpamMisery (Oct 4, 2016)

There are risks but most of the arguments against border on conspiralunacy; typified by the "you dont understand the problem" mentality


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## Rushy (Oct 4, 2016)

Brixton Hatter said:


> IIRC in most cases it's actually the police insisting on it.


Yes. Through the licensing process. Licencing can't impose many conditions themselves. They basically consult police, fire, planning, counselors, etc.. And manage the objections. Or representations, as they are known.


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## peterkro (Oct 4, 2016)

friendofdorothy said:


> Over 60s have a free bus pass - don't think thats the same as a freedom pass - my mates use it as age ID to get in for free swimming etc.


It is a Freedom Pass I have one and I've seen photos of Freedom Passes given for other reasons and they look the same.

E2a:Freedom Pass | London Councils
Whoops,apologies I see there is a TFL 60+ Oyster card that I'd never heard of, sorry.


----------



## Rushy (Oct 4, 2016)

friendofdorothy said:


> a)  I was asked for ID before 8pm at the Effra Social once - fortunately he let me in without, but it really pissed me off. I tended to avoid late night Brixton - I don't want to walk down there just on the off chance that I'll be sent home. It used to be just the Dog star and some other places I didn't want to go to anyway, but how long before Herne Hill pubs and other places demand them.
> 
> b)  Produce what type of ID? - I don't mean the particular brand of PASS ID card, I mean what other type of ID - I have credit cards, TU membership card and an Iceland loyalty card - none of them have photos, what would you suggest?


So we are talking about different things. My post said that I didn't understand why people objected to them charging for their particular card, since no one is obliged to use it (and no one seems to be motivated to provide a free alternative).

It doesn't surprise me at all that you were asked for ID at the Effra with your sprightly demeanor and youthful looks.


----------



## editor (Oct 4, 2016)

SpamMisery said:


> There are risks but most of the arguments against border on conspiralunacy; typified by the "you dont understand the problem" mentality


Lumping in people's valid fears about privacy, and concerns about database security with 'conspiralunacy' is both insulting and shows how little you understand the risks. It's a short step from compelling people to carry ID just to go for a drink to compulsory ID for all and it's one I'm strongly against, even if it doesn't appear to bother you.


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## SpamMisery (Oct 4, 2016)

Think i'll step out of this discussion because itll only end with me on forced ignore or a ban. You crack on with telling everyone else theyre wrong and you know best.


----------



## editor (Oct 4, 2016)

SpamMisery said:


> Think i'll step out of this discussion because itll only end with me on forced ignore or a ban. You crack on with telling everyone else theyre wrong and you know best.


Or you could actually try and have an intelligent discussion on the topic. Here's a few links to get you started, from various 'non conspiraloon' sources:

We have everything to fear from ID cards
Security fears 8,500 military ID cards lost or stolen in one year
Identity Cards


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## SpamMisery (Oct 4, 2016)

Hahaha that Telegraph article is just rhetoric (and wrong). Dear me, I hope the other two links were better.


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## Mr Retro (Oct 4, 2016)

In Boston last year we went to a basketball ball game and they wouldn't serve us a beer because though my wife had a UK driving licence neither of us had a passport. The fucking jobsworths. 

Fucked off at halftime because who wants to watch basketball anywhere approaching sober.


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## editor (Oct 4, 2016)

SpamMisery said:


> Hahaha that Telegraph article is just rhetoric (and wrong). Dear me, I hope the other two links were better.


Perhaps you should step out of this discussion because it seems increasingly obvious that you're not actually interested in adding anything of worth.


----------



## Rushy (Oct 4, 2016)

Mr Retro said:


> In Boston last year we went to a basketball ball game and they wouldn't serve us a beer because though my wife had a UK driving licence neither of us had a passport. The fucking jobsworths.
> 
> Fucked off at halftime because who wants to watch basketball anywhere approaching sober.


In NYC I was intending to celebrate completing the marathon with a meal and a pint or two in a pub but was refused because my UK passport was not an approved form of identity. Mind you, that was 1998. Things may be different now .

We did blag it later in the evening. My mate had two sips before quite literally falling asleep with his face in a bowl of pasta.


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## Gramsci (Oct 4, 2016)

SpamMisery said:


> There are risks but most of the arguments against border on conspiralunacy; typified by the "you dont understand the problem" mentality



That would include Lord Goddard back in the 1950 case I posted about earlier.

Here is what he said in his judgement.



> It is obvious that the police now, as a matter of routine, demand the production of national registration identity cards whenever they stop or interrogate a motorist for whatever cause...Further, in this country we have always prided ourselves on the good feeling that exists between the police and the public and such action tends to make the people resentful of the acts of the police and inclines them to obstruct the police instead of to assist them.



The man who refused to show the police his identity card was a Liberal. What underlies this is a view that the individual should be able to go about his/her business without intrusion by the State or its agents. ( The police have access to card scanning data in bars btw).Its a position on the liberty of the individual. An old school Liberal one. Its not conspiralunacy its a serious take on the relationship between the individual and the State.

Another one is Blunkett when the Labour Party was pushing the idea of identity cards. He saw it as as not just about proving identity but to bolster the idea of citizenship. A rather authoritarian socialist one that can be traced back to Fabians like Webb.


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## Gramsci (Oct 5, 2016)

Tom Kenny said:


> It's kind of you to think that, but I'm no hero: I'm in this business to turn a profit.
> 
> Happily for Civilian Card's customers and society at large, we find that the best way to do so is by providing products & services that meet our customers' needs better, faster or cheaper than those of our competitors.
> 
> Adam Smith's "invisible hand" at work, if you will.



This is not about supplying peoples real needs like clothing and food through individuals making and exchanging them in the market. 

This is about the State making people require this. This as Brixton Hatter points out done incrementally without proper debate.


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## madolesance (Oct 5, 2016)

So does anyone have a solution to the problem of some form of identity being needed to gain entry into all the bars and clubs that have been forced/ introduced it them selfs?


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## editor (Oct 5, 2016)

madolesance said:


> So does anyone have a solution to the problem of some form of identity being needed to gain entry into all the bars and clubs that have been forced/ introduced it them selfs?


One way is to get to know the bouncers so they don't ask you any more. Or work there in some capacity


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## discobastard (Oct 5, 2016)

editor said:


> One way is to get to know the bouncers so they don't ask you any more. Or work there in some capacity


Which is something only available to a very privileged few, less a solution, sadly.


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## editor (Oct 5, 2016)

discobastard said:


> Which is something only available to a very privileged few, less a solution, sadly.


It's really not hard to get to know a bouncer. I did it in one venue in Brixton (which I had no work connection with) and have never had to drag out ID since. Good job too because I'm _really_ not into taking ID out with me.


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## friendofdorothy (Oct 5, 2016)

SpamMisery said:


> conspiralunacy ...


 thanks


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## friendofdorothy (Oct 5, 2016)

Rushy said:


> It doesn't surprise me at all that you were asked for ID at the Effra with your sprightly demeanor and youthful looks.


sprightly? that sounds like I'm in my dotage. You won't get round me like that young man!
-stern look-


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## friendofdorothy (Oct 5, 2016)

editor said:


> One way is to get to know the bouncers so they don't ask you any more. Or work there in some capacity


 Thats hardly practical for those of us who don't get to go out as often as you. 

I don't think I'll look to you for career advice either, thanks.


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## editor (Oct 5, 2016)

friendofdorothy said:


> I don't think I'll look to you for career advice either, thanks.


I wasn't offering you any advice. I wasn't even talking to you, so why the stroppy answer?


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## friendofdorothy (Oct 5, 2016)

editor said:


> I wasn't offering you any advice. I wasn't even talking to you, so why the stroppy answer?


I thought we were all in this conversation? And I did say thank you.

and I'm menopausal and I feel like being stroppy, so there. 

...stern look....


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## Winot (Oct 5, 2016)

Mr Retro said:


> In Boston last year we went to a basketball ball game and they wouldn't serve us a beer because though my wife had a UK driving licence neither of us had a passport. The fucking jobsworths.
> 
> Fucked off at halftime because who wants to watch basketball anywhere approaching sober.



Same thing happened to me buying hash cakes in Colorado in the summer. 

Fucking police state I tell you.


----------



## Greebo (Oct 5, 2016)

CH1 said:


> <snip> I believe the NHS bears a lot of costs of treating people who would have to pay in other countries - simply because the NHS is not geared up to checking entitlement.
> 
> The effect of this is visible in local surgeries I venture to suggest - and is one of the reasons that GP surgeries claim to be unable to give appointments.


You _believe,_ you cannot prove it.  A lot of surgeries in the Brixon area want to see photo ID plus proof of address when you register, even though it's not offically required by the national system.

At the endoscopy unit at St Thomas's yesterday, VP saw a man being asked to prove that he was entitled to NHS treatment.  His son produced naturalisation papers with the wry comment of "this happens more often than you'd believe".


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## T & P (Oct 5, 2016)

In the 90s the lads mags used to be full of adverts for companies selling dodgy-looking ID/ age proof cards. None of them recognised by any government department or police force of course. I doubt a single person ever managed to gain access to an over-18s venue with one of those, but clearly a lot of fools forked out £20 to buy one.


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## Gramsci (Oct 5, 2016)

SpamMisery said:


> There are risks but most of the arguments against border on conspiralunacy; typified by the "you dont understand the problem" mentality



Bit more reading for you from Liberty



> The importance of the right to personal privacy become self-evident in the immediate aftermath of the horrors of the Second World War. The right to a private life is based on principles of human dignity and is inherently linked to many other rights such as equal treatment and free expression. *A society that does not pay proper regard to personal privacy is one where dignity, autonomy and trust are fatally undermined*.



I agree with Liberty about WW2. People fought for these rights.

To add the people who finally ended New Labours bid to make us all have ID cards was the well known lefties Clegg and Cameron. Oh and the PM who abolished the WW2 ID system was Churchill. He was never keen on them.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 5, 2016)

Greebo said:


> You _believe,_ you cannot prove it.  A lot of surgeries in the Brixon area want to see photo ID plus proof of address when you register, even though it's not offically required by the national system.
> 
> At the endoscopy unit at St Thomas's yesterday, VP saw a man being asked to prove that he was entitled to NHS treatment.  His son produced naturalisation papers with the wry comment of "this happens more often than you'd believe".



My friend who rents out her old flat was complaining to me that its now a requirement of landlords to make sure the people they rent to are not "illegal"immigrants.

There is an obnoxious move by the State to make third parties police immigration.


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## Tom Kenny (Oct 6, 2016)

editor said:


> Tom wants more of this, he wants every bar, club, restaurant, sports facility and everywhere else to demand ID so he can make more money for himself. He doesn't give a fuck about personal liberties, that's why he tries to spin his card into something that is supposedly 'empowering' for young people when in fact it's part of the process that forces all people to carry around ID. And that's not very empowering at all.



I don't think that's fair. My family, friends and I all have to live in society as well, and I have no desire for us all to be required to show our papers at every turn. What I would very much like to see is a more open and fully-informed debate about ID checking, and more transparent regulatory & licensing decision-making processes and communications to customers regarding electronic scanning machines. I've set out some of my thoughts on this below.

But before I come to that, please have a look at this video: FinovateEurope 2016 - IDscan Biometrics - Finovate

It's a presentation by the CEO of ID scanning terminal supplier IDScan: Tamlyn Thompson.

At 6:36 he demonstrates how IDScan's software can electronically read a driving licence, then within 5 seconds produce a Know Your Customer (KYC) and Anti Money Laundering (AML) Report on the licence-holder. The Report includes Land Registry details, Electoral Roll, Birth Marriage & Death Index, a Crime Report, ID Scan Register (whatever that is), Utility Check and Sanction Check (whatever that is).

IDScan's software can access all that information about you simply by scanning your driving licence, and - I suspect - a good deal of it by scanning your passport. Were you aware of that the last time you had your ID scanned at a pub / bar / club? Did you agree to it? How do you feel about it now?

In my view:

* When the Licensing Committee require a venue to deploy ID scanners, the Committee should be obliged to provide an unambiguous and evidenced justification for that requirement (e.g. "to help verify that customers are of legal age"; and / or "to deter criminal activity"; and / or "to share information about excluded customers with third parties including other venues and the police");

* Before any customer's ID is scanned, the venue should be obliged to communicate to the customer the purpose(s) for which the scanned data is to be used, by whom and for what period, and to obtain the customer's consent for such use. That includes both purposes required by the Licensing Committee and any other purposes (e.g. sale of data to third parties, marketing activities);

* The venue and / or the scanning machine supplier should be inspected and penalised for any use of scanned data in a manner to which the customer has not consented. For example, a venue cannot pretend that it is scanning ID merely to help verify that its customers are of legal age, then store that data, use it to access other data and drive marketing activities. Trading Standards could check compliance with this, including carrying out "test purchasing".


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## Winot (Oct 6, 2016)

Coincidentally I tried to get into a nightclub in the West End last night (The Roxy in Rathbone Place) and couldn't because I had no photo ID. They seemed to be taking a photo of punters going in as well as scanning their ID.

They had very officious security on the door who wanted all of my party to wait for management to come and talk to us. So we went elsewhere and they lost 5 paying customers.


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## editor (Oct 6, 2016)

Tom Kenny said:


> I don't think that's fair. My family, friends and I all have to live in society as well, and I have no desire for us all to be required to show our papers at every turn. What I would very much like to see is a more open and fully-informed debate about ID checking, and more transparent regulatory & licensing decision-making processes and communications to customers regarding electronic scanning machines.


I have no desire whatsoever to have to produce a paid-for ID card every time I want to go to the pub, club, restaurant, but that's the very thing you're pushing for, because your business model depends on the growth of compulsory ID checking.

I don't want my private data going to private companies like you, or being subjected to inspection by bouncers and anyone else who sees fit to demand to see it in exchange for entry to a place I want to go to, neither do I want to see my details going into innumerable privately held databases (which is what your ID card encourages).

Moreover, in this ID card laden future, innocent punters can find themselves excluded from bars and clubs on the whims of individual bouncers with a grudge or in cases of mistaken identity. Far from 'empowering' anyone, your ID card future means that people will enjoy less freedom (see post above) and also increase their chances of their private data being hacked and shared from multiple sources.


----------



## Tom Kenny (Oct 6, 2016)

friendofdorothy said:


> But I'm not a young person, this isn't empowering me at all. I'm over 50yrs old and I can no longer go drinking in most of brixton late at night. I no longer go to pubs I've drank in for 30yrs - because I don't own any photo ID. Is this the unintended social benefit these responsible venues had in mind? Rather against the 2010 equality act, I think.  'invisible hand' oh do fuck off.
> 
> 
> 
> Produce one that doesn't say my date of birth on then. Its more than obvious I'm of age. The card could say I'm over 18, perhaps even say over 25yrs - and charge half the price and I might consider it.



Actually Civilian Card would very much like to offer a card that proved merely that the cardholder (whose photo would appear on it) was over 18 years of age: no name, no date of birth, no contact details. After all, the law does not require the vendor of age-restricted products & services to verify your identity, merely your age.

The reason that we don't is that such a card would be no use in practice. That's because retailers, door staff, trading standards officials and police are all trained to recognise only the "mandatory standard" 18+ PASS card design which includes the cardholder's date of birth.

Charge half the price? I'm afraid £7.50 off with discount code URBAN750 is the best I can do


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## editor (Oct 6, 2016)

Tom Kenny said:


> Actually Civilian Card would very much like to offer a card that proved merely that the cardholder (whose photo would appear on it) was over 18 years of age: no name, no date of birth, no contact details. After all, the law does not require the vendor of age-restricted products & services to verify your identity, merely your age.
> 
> The reason that we don't is that such a card would be no use in practice. That's because retailers, door staff, trading standards officials and police are all trained to recognise only the "mandatory standard" 18+ PASS card design which includes the cardholder's date of birth.
> 
> Charge half the price? I'm afraid £7.50 off with discount code URBAN750 is the best I can do


If you try to plug your products one more time you will be banned. You have been warned enough times. You are welcome to discuss the issues around ID cards, but endlessly spamming your own products is not on. Unlike your business, urban75 is entirely non profit, so you trying to use it as a free billboard really grates.


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## Nanker Phelge (Oct 6, 2016)

'Wanna buy an ID card, Guv, I'll knock off £7.50.....getcha in the club....'


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## Greebo (Oct 6, 2016)

Nanker Phelge said:


> <snip> 'Wanna buy an ID card, Guv, I'll knock of £7.50.....getcha in the club....'


It's a long time since I've seen a spiv, even a fictional one.


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## Nanker Phelge (Oct 6, 2016)

Greebo said:


> It's a long time since I've seen a spiv, even a fictional one.



Tommy's a virtual spiv....got a coat full of ID cards...and his mother loves him...


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## Greebo (Oct 6, 2016)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Tommy's a virtual spiv....got a coat full of ID cards...and his mother loves him...


Then his mother ought to be ashamed of herself for bringing him into the world.


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## Rushy (Oct 6, 2016)

Tom Kenny said:


> I don't think that's fair. My family, friends and I all have to live in society as well, and I have no desire for us all to be required to show our papers at every turn. What I would very much like to see is a more open and fully-informed debate about ID checking, and more transparent regulatory & licensing decision-making processes and communications to customers regarding electronic scanning machines. I've set out some of my thoughts on this below.
> 
> But before I come to that, please have a look at this video: FinovateEurope 2016 - IDscan Biometrics - Finovate
> 
> ...


Unfortunately every "debate" around these parts requires a villain and you are designated ID ogre. Attempts to argue your corner will be utterly futile. It's easy to forget that most readers don't post or even"like" so the views expressed on here are not necessarily very representative (although some will argue that everyone they have ever spoken to anywhere agrees with them).

Where ID scanning is imposed, I agree with your three points above. Licensing do generally need evidence (how well considered it is is another matter) and unnecessary or punitive conditions can be challenged. In practice I think many operators just find it easier to comply.

Interesting idea regarding the nameless cards. Users would still need to be somehow identifiable though (perhaps not to the venue) as the purpose of these schemes is security as well as age.


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## Nanker Phelge (Oct 6, 2016)

Greebo said:


> Then his mother ought to be ashamed of herself for bringing him into the world.



That's mean...


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## Greebo (Oct 6, 2016)

Nanker Phelge said:


> That's mean...


Tough on spivs, tough on the causes of spivs. 

But you're right (and a better person than me); his mother probably did her best, only to see him led astray.


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## Nanker Phelge (Oct 6, 2016)

The geezer's only trying to flog IDs, he aint a serial killer....I'm starting to feel  sorry for him.


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## friendofdorothy (Oct 6, 2016)

Tom Kenny said:


> After all, the law does not require the vendor of age-restricted products & services to verify your identity, merely your age.
> 
> The reason that we don't is that such a card would be no use in practice. That's because retailers, door staff, trading standards officials and police are all trained to recognise only the "mandatory standard" 18+ PASS card design which includes the cardholder's date of birth.


Well, the law may not require mature adults to verify our identity - but for some reason an increasing number of pubs in Brixton do. NOT age - IDENTITY. 

As I don't want to spend good money _proving_ I'm 56, when anyone without special training should be able to recognise that I'm old enough to have an 18 yr old grandchild - so your mandatory standard card isn't really for me. I'd rather just drink elsewhere.


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## friendofdorothy (Oct 6, 2016)

Does anyone know if these ID requiring venues will accept out of date passports? 

I have 3 of those including the old 'blue' british one.  Though I'm not sure if I even want them to scan that either.


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## editor (Oct 6, 2016)

friendofdorothy said:


> Does anyone know if these ID requiring venues will accept out of date passports?.


In my experience, no. Which is, of course, fucking ridiculous.


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## Tom Kenny (Oct 7, 2016)

You're going to love this:

How the street light has been given a hi-tech makeover - BBC News


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## Rushy (Oct 7, 2016)

You can add to this list the Vale Street recycling depot. I was asked for ID yesterday!

They didn't scan it but they do scan number plates...


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## nick (Oct 7, 2016)

Vale St started asking for proof of address a couple of weeks ago. I don't think that they ask for proof of age though.
This from the depths of the Lambeth web site:


> Every time you visit site, you will need to show proof of an address in Lambeth such as a:
> 
> current council tax bill
> drivers licence
> ...


Lambeth Reuse and Recycling Centre - Vale Street | Lambeth Council


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## CH1 (Oct 15, 2016)

Greebo said:


> You _believe,_ you cannot prove it.  A lot of surgeries in the Brixon area want to see photo ID plus proof of address when you register, even though it's not offically required by the national system.
> 
> At the endoscopy unit at St Thomas's yesterday, VP saw a man being asked to prove that he was entitled to NHS treatment.  His son produced naturalisation papers with the wry comment of "this happens more often than you'd believe".


Don't know if you caught this interesting article: Pregnant women will have to show ID to give birth at London hospital

I am not saying people should not be be treated - and in fact I was treated free when I had severe malaria in northern Ghana in 1996 (though this by Catholic nuns as there was no government hospital or doctor in the village).

But the fact remains that health services are funded according to population, NI contributions etc and it has to right that entitlement to free treatment is checked.

This situation would not arise in France, where the patient has to pay and then claim back treatment costs from the council on a means tested basis. And of course THEY (the French) have ID cards.


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## Greebo (Oct 15, 2016)

CH1 said:


> Don't know if you caught this interesting article: Pregnant women will have to show ID to give birth at London hospital.  <snip>



I heard of that on Woman's Hour  - IMHO it would merely lead to people going without medical care and supervision when they need it most.  I know it's unusual, but it's possible to go through an entire pregnancy  (bleeding can occur which mimicks a light period) without reallising until halfway through labour.  Also, younger people and pooer people in urban areas are less likely to have a current passport, so they'd be up the creek without a paddle.

I honestly don't foresee many doctors on the ground enforcing it, it'd break "first do no harm".  Similar happened in London with TB patients when it was decreed that their entitlement to NHS treatment should be verified - the danger of letting people wander around untreated (and therefore infectious) was deemed a far greater harm than letting a few possible freeloaders get antibiotics etc.


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## CH1 (Oct 15, 2016)

Greebo said:


> I heard of that on Woman's Hour  - IMHO it would merely lead to people going without medical care and supervision when they need it most.  I know it's unusual, but it's possible to go through an entire pregnancy  (bleeding can occur which mimicks a light period) without reallising until halfway through labour.  Also, younger people and pooer people in urban areas are less likely to have a current passport, so they'd be up the creek without a paddle.
> 
> I honestly don't foresee many doctors on the ground enforcing it, it'd break "first do no harm".  Similar happened in London with TB patients when it was decreed that their entitlement to NHS treatment should be verified - the danger of letting people wander around untreated (and therefore infectious) was deemed a far greater harm than letting a few possible freeloaders get antibiotics etc.


Isn't TB a notifiable disease? Or have they done away with all that as part of the cuts?

I remember in about 1985 when I worked in a factory in  Surbiton someone joined the staff who it tuned out a few days later was diagnoses with TB.
The whole company was offered immunisation and screening (by the local health authority). I was quite impressed.

Regarding people coming here to have babies, or elective surgery, I still think they should pay. NHS does not exist to provide free healthcare for people who would have to pay for it in their home country.


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## editor (Apr 5, 2017)

I've noticed more and more venues are asking for Photo ID - the Prince of Wales is now going for the full photo scan treatment, while the Blues Kitchen insist on some ID along with these rules: 


> PLEASE BE PREPARED TO SHOW SOME ID TO PROVE THAT YOU ARE OVER THE RIPE OLD AGE OF 18. LASTLY, YOU CAN WEAR WHAT YOU DAMN WELL PLEASE SO LONG AS YOU’RE LOOKING FRESH, AND YOUR FANCY DRESS BOX IS LEFT ALONE. GROUPS OF SIX OR MORE MUST BE MIXED SO THIS ISN’T THE RIGHT KINDA JOINT FOR HENS OR STAGS.


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## editor (Apr 6, 2017)

I've just seen this event advertised for Ministry and found it rather strange:



> This event is strictly over 21's for Females and over 23's for Males
> Back to 95


----------



## sim667 (Apr 8, 2017)

I had my ID scanned at fire in Vauxhall last night. They don't seem to have a privacy policy regarding this on their website. I would have thought they should, but don't know. Does anyone know if they should?


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## Gramsci (Apr 10, 2017)

sim667 said:


> I had my ID scanned at fire in Vauxhall last night. They don't seem to have a privacy policy regarding this on their website. I would have thought they should, but don't know. Does anyone know if they should?



Yes they should. And it should be on display. Like do you wish to have your details passed on for advertising purposes. 

This is a big problem with ID. Your info can be used for marketing purposes.


----------



## editor (Apr 10, 2017)

Gramsci said:


> Yes they should. And it should be on display. Like do you wish to have your details passed on for advertising purposes.
> 
> This is a big problem with ID. Your info can be used for marketing purposes.


Club owners often hate the scanners too, but they've usually being compelled to install them.


> "Say I don't like the look of you. If I've scanned in your ID, I could ban you not only from my club but, by sharing that data, from every nightclub in London. How the fuck is that not illegal? How are there not data protection issues with that?"
> 
> Alex Proud, owner of Proud Camden, has a reputation for being a bit opinionated and gobby, but this issue – the harvesting of personal data from clubbers, which is increasingly becoming mandatory for late night venues – has him firing words out with furious, spitfire precision.
> 
> ...


----------



## T & P (Apr 11, 2017)

Like most people I don't like the concept of having to carry ID to gain entry to a nightclub at all. It's well OTT and a big inconvenience, and much more so for those who don't have a driving licence, which at least fits easily in your wallet and most of those of us who have one carry pretty much every day.

Having said that, I must say I'm very little bothered by both possibilities of being targetted by marketing or my data being stored. In case of the former, bin any flyer/ email that one might receive.

In case of the latter... well perhaps I am being naive but I doubt any nightclub would have reason to store my prints or pass on records of my visiting their establishment to the Big Man. And frankly, couldn't actually give a flying fuck in the very unlikely case they did. It'd be a different matter if we were discussing nightclubs selling personal information to criminals for identity theft purposes of course, but I don't think that's the angle here.


----------



## editor (Apr 11, 2017)

T & P said:


> Like most people I don't like the concept of having to carry ID to gain entry to a nightclub at all. It's well OTT and a big inconvenience, and much more so for those who don't have a driving licence, which at least fits easily in your wallet and most of those of us who have one carry pretty much every day.
> 
> Having said that, I must say I'm very little bothered by both possibilities of being targetted by marketing or my data being stored. In case of the former, bin any flyer/ email that one might receive.
> 
> In case of the latter... well perhaps I am being naive but I doubt any nightclub would have reason to store my prints or pass on records of my visiting their establishment to the Big Man. And frankly, couldn't actually give a flying fuck in the very unlikely case they did. It'd be a different matter if we were discussing nightclubs selling personal information to criminals for identity theft purposes of course, but I don't think that's the angle here.


I'd more worried about the personal information being hacked/stolen and passed on to people who would be only too delighted to have such details.


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## sim667 (Apr 11, 2017)

Well I've facebooked and email them...

No response as yet.


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## sim667 (Nov 13, 2017)

sim667 said:


> Well I've facebooked and email them...
> 
> No response as yet.



I did actually get a response to this, they're kept on file for 3 months at fire, so the bouncer on the door flat out lied to me when he said they were deleted at the end of the night.

Had another night out on Saturday, same deal, ID scanning, but at least they told you they were going to do it (I've been to venues where they just disappear behind a door with your ID without telling you. 

But this venue in Brixton at least has its info on the website, I haven't had to go chasing random people up by email and facebook who work for the venue to find out what the deal is with my data privacy.

So the POW in Brixton
Membership Policy – POW / The Prince Of Wales


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## pogofish (Nov 13, 2017)

sim667 said:


> I did actually get a response to this, they're kept on file for 3 months at fire, so the bouncer on the door flat out lied to me when he said they were deleted at the end of the night.



That's interesting.  The Protection of Freedom Act 2012 has resulted in stricter interpretation of DPA guidelines for storing data and established an "only keep for as long as actually needed" principle.  IIRC, unless there is some sort of "high risk" element/special condition to the licence on this particular club, licensing authorities normally only advise thirty days data retention to comply with the current legislation.

Might it be worth pursuing with the ICO?


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## sim667 (Nov 13, 2017)

pogofish said:


> That's interesting.  The Protection of Freedom Act 2012 has resulted in stricter interpretation of DPA guidelines for storing data and established an "only keep for as long as actually needed" principle.  IIRC, unless there is some sort of "high risk" element/special condition to the licence on this particular club, licensing authorities normally only advise thirty days data retention to comply with the current legislation.
> 
> Might it be worth pursuing with the ICO?



I've just checked the email from Orangenation about it, its actually 3 years.



> We hold the information securely for 3 years.
> 
> 
> 
> This information is not shared with anyone external to our business.


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## pogofish (Nov 13, 2017)

sim667 said:


> I've just checked the email from Orangenation about it, its actually 3 years.



If it is purely ID data, then that sounds pretty unreasonable to me - Is there some sort of marketing/other permission included in the conditions of entry - and where can people inspect it?


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## sim667 (Nov 13, 2017)

pogofish said:


> If it is purely ID data, then that sounds pretty unreasonable to me - Is there some sort of marketing/other permission included in the conditions of entry - and where can people inspect it?


This is literally all the information I have, there is nothing on their website, nothing on the door, and I had to ask 3 people just to find this two lines of information our.

The only information I've not posted from the email where this was confirmed is the word "Hi" and the name of the person responding.


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## sim667 (Nov 13, 2017)

Also, I've just looked at the ICO website, they won't look into as its over 3 months since I contacted Fire about my concerns.


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## editor (Nov 13, 2017)

sim667 said:


> I did actually get a response to this, they're kept on file for 3 months at fire, so the bouncer on the door flat out lied to me when he said they were deleted at the end of the night.
> 
> Had another night out on Saturday, same deal, ID scanning, but at least they told you they were going to do it (I've been to venues where they just disappear behind a door with your ID without telling you.
> 
> ...


I had to take out my passport and get it scanned in at PoW on Saturday. It really pissed me off.


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## sim667 (Nov 13, 2017)

editor said:


> I had to take out my passport and get it scanned in at PoW on Saturday. It really pissed me off.



It irritated me too, at least their website tells you how long they keep it for though....... It looks like they've got a license for members only and the scan works as a temporary membership. Good to bump into you though, Ill drop you a PM to the photos when I've gone through them


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## snowy_again (Nov 13, 2017)

sim667 said:


> It irritated me too, at least their website tells you how long they keep it for though....... It looks like they've got a license for members only and the scan works as a temporary membership. Good to bump into you though, Ill drop you a PM to the photos when I've gone through them



So it's a members club now? Albeit one with a work around for non members?


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## sim667 (Nov 13, 2017)

snowy_again said:


> So it's a members club now? Albeit one with a work around for non members?


Upstairs is...... I believe there's a pub too? So no idea about that..... Not going to lie I don't really know Brixton and Brixton venues that well.


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## Gramsci (Nov 13, 2017)

So what Ive learned from above is that venues require proof which is scanned into a database. 

The data protection of this information is "light touch" regulation. Depends on someone spending a lot of time pursuing this. 

Also depends on venues doing what they say. As the regulation of this personal data storage appears minimal I think people's personal privacy is at risk.


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## snowy_again (Nov 13, 2017)

Hmm, I'd disagree. Some are becoming Data Controllers, under the ICO, but are doing it for different purposes.

Fines under DPA and then the GDPR from next year are massive.


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## DietCokeGirl (Nov 14, 2017)

Data protection law is changing massively from next year in terms of what data 'controllers' can collect, store, and share.  I wonder if this will affect these venues? 
On a personal level, I don't have a drivers license and I don't take my passport out routinely in case I loose it, so it's making it much harder to do those spontaneous 'fuck it, let's go and have a dance' nights out.


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## Farmer Giles (Nov 20, 2017)

`The scanner at Phonox didn't recognise my Irish credit card sized passport. Win.


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## editor (Nov 24, 2017)

So the Prince of Wales now demands full photo scanning on Thursdays. Some old boy who had been coming to the jazz nights for years was turned away last night.


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## editor (Jun 11, 2019)

So I'm doing an update on this and - blimey - what a palaver for Hootananny:


> For your safety and security, we have installed an IDscan system at the gate. This means – regardless of age or appearance – you need to bring valid ID, which may be:
> 
> Passport
> Driving Licence
> Home Office approved proof-of-age card





> Hootananny’s licence requires everyone who comes after 11pm to become a club member.
> Bring regular ID,  as is usual to enter any UK club and we will scan it with our IDscan. This will admit or confirm you as club members.
> You will be admitted to the Music Lovers Club at the box office, but as a membership club, the club can turn down membership on the basis of age, state of inebriation, or prior bad behaviour, or concern of future bad behaviour





> To gain entrance after 11pm on a Thursday, Friday or Saturday, you need to become a club member.


So you need both valid ID and a member's card to get in some nights (on top of the admission free) and you may still get refused on account of their "concern of future bad behaviour"...


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## Gramsci (Jun 11, 2019)

editor said:


> So I'm doing an update on this and - blimey - what a palaver for Hootananny:
> 
> 
> 
> So you need both valid ID and a member's card to get in some nights (on top of the admission free) and you may still get refused on account of their "concern of future bad behaviour"...



Regardless of age and appearance. And scan your ID. Its Orwellian. 

The concern of future had behaviour is insidious. You might be innocent of any offence and stil get turned down due to what is in effect hearsay. 

One point of this intrusive ID scanning is to share information. 

Really puts me off.


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## jimbarkanoodle (Jun 12, 2019)

editor said:


> So I'm doing an update on this and - blimey - what a palaver for Hootananny:
> 
> 
> 
> So you need both valid ID and a member's card to get in some nights (on top of the admission free) and you may still get refused on account of their "concern of future bad behaviour"...




I dont think you need a membership card. Its just a completely pointless way of saying you need I.D to come in, the POW have a similar policy. Why i have no idea.

Saying that i seem to recall that a few years back, later on Friday and Saturday nights, once they scanned your I.D at Hootanannys, you were required to show some kind of membership card, and if you didn't have one in your wallet from a previous visit you had to pay a couple of quid for a new one!


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## sim667 (Jun 12, 2019)

Bit off topic, but I've seen Parklife Festival Security were performing strip searches without police presence over the weekend..... Surely thats got to be a legal grey area too? I thought SIA weren't allowed to perform a strip search even with consent.


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## editor (Jun 12, 2019)

jimbarkanoodle said:


> I dont think you need a membership card. Its just a completely pointless way of saying you need I.D to come in, the POW have a similar policy. Why i have no idea.
> 
> Saying that i seem to recall that a few years back, later on Friday and Saturday nights, once they scanned your I.D at Hootanannys, you were required to show some kind of membership card, and if you didn't have one in your wallet from a previous visit you had to pay a couple of quid for a new one!


The text on their site seems quite specific: 


> To gain entrance after 11pm on a Thursday, Friday or Saturday, you need to become a club member.
> Non-members already in Hootananny by 11pm can stay. But only Hootananny Music Lovers Club members can join the party after 11pm.


Info | Hootananny Brixton, Live Music Venue & Mexican Restaurant, Ska Roots Reggae World Folk Music, DJs, London UK


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## editor (Jun 12, 2019)

sim667 said:


> Bit off topic, but I've seen Parklife Festival Security were performing strip searches without police presence over the weekend..... Surely thats got to be a legal grey area too? I thought SIA weren't allowed to perform a strip search even with consent.


This explains what they can do i some detail: 



> If you are searched, it must be compliant and based around surface area only – they cannot go under clothing to search. They are allowed to ask you to remove a coat/jacket/jumper, but that’s it.
> 
> They can search quite thoroughly – and well trained security staff are good at this. You will know how good they are when you are first “touched” – if they start with a collar check, you are probably meeting someone that has been trained by someone with a background in military, police or prison searches.
> 
> They are not allowed to touch genitals, but are allowed to “back hand” your buttocks/boobs – and also to run their hands up the insides of your legs.



Festival security, drug searches and your safety – an insider’s guide, 2018 update


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## snowy_again (Jun 12, 2019)

Hmm, well they broke that ^^^ at Cross the Tracks last weekend.


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## editor (Jun 12, 2019)

snowy_again said:


> Hmm, well they broke that ^^^ at Cross the Tracks last weekend.


They almost always do. 

Trouble is that if you complain, they simply won't let you in.


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