# 100% Mortgage loans for students in Bath!



## cyberfairy (Mar 14, 2006)

Just seen on local news so don't ask me for link that the Bath Building Society is offering 100% loans for students wanting to buy a house  
So not only am I surrounded by loaded young glamorous rich types who don't pay council tax, work full time and wake me up all night, but they can buy sodding houses too  
Not anti-student really, was one myself few years ago but Bath is full of mostly pretty rich ones and there are far too many for a smallish city so why attract more? Working class people already are being driven out of area by silly house prices. Surely this will only create more of a gap between rich and poor, cause more animosity/resentment towards students?  They could also be saddled with a house they might have big problems keeping in good nick/getting money for renting rooms to other students to/affording to pay mortgage when finished uni as at least in my experience, getting a decent degree does not mean earning a decent wage or finding a job at the end of it...


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## tangerinedream (Mar 14, 2006)

*enrols at bath university*


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## cyberfairy (Mar 14, 2006)

Thankyou for replying  I was expecting a whole afternoon of savage political debate from my first ever post not relating to either my cat's numerous antisocial tendancies/problems or pies but no  Where can everyone be? 
*sits back and awaits tidalwave of posts about where They are and how crap it is there/here and thread to be binned*


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## munkeeunit (Mar 14, 2006)

They might be able to buy houses with 100% loans but how long will they keep them? 

It's an indication that things are getting desperate in the housing market when they start removing the normal requirement of a healthy deposit, and which is the surest sign people have enough disposable income to afford one.

The emergence of 100% loans and 100% mortages is a rough tea leaf reading indicator of an impending collapse in the housing market, which has been wobbling on the edge of one for a few years now.

Lucky them, or a poisoned challice?


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## cyberfairy (Mar 14, 2006)

munkeeunit said:
			
		

> They might be able to buy houses with 100% mortgages, but how long will they keep them? It's an indication that things are getting desperate in the housing market when they start removing the normal requirement of a healthy deposit - which is the surest sign people have enough disposable income to afford one.
> 
> The emergence of 100% mortages is a rough tea leaf reading indicator of an impending collapse in the housing market, which has been wobbling on the edge of one for a few years now.
> 
> Lucky them, or a poisoned challice?


I was reading though how the housing market in Bath is better than it has been in ages...Also it's always going to be a place attracting high prices and quick selling I would have thought as not many new houses will ever be able to be built there, it's famous, beautiful and has two universities so I can't imagine estate agents being desperate when a two bed terrace is over 200 grand...
I do think though this means that students will definately struggle to afford to pay off mortgages though as most graduates I know here are on well under fifteen grand as wages are low and there's far too much competition for the few graduate jobs there are. 
I'm thinking more poisoned chalice myself although had this happened when I was a student here, might have done it as a short sighted greedy idiot


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## wiskey (Mar 14, 2006)

personally i rekkon the thing to do is to buy a dirt cheap house over one of the holes in the hill, then wait for them to fill the hole with concrete and sell the house with great views of the city for a fortune.


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## cyberfairy (Mar 14, 2006)

wiskey said:
			
		

> personally i rekkon the thing to do is to buy a dirt cheap house over one of the holes in the hill, then wait for them to fill the hole with concrete and sell the house with great views of the city for a fortune.


That's one thing really pissing me off! the houses in Combe Down were bought cheap by rich people and now the tax payer ie me, is paying to shore them up and thus make them worth far more to the individual who owns them, despite them knowing the risks and getting them cheap as a result  They still cost a fortune now though....


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## munkeeunit (Mar 14, 2006)

The emergence of the 100% mortage was swiftly followed by the late 1980's collapse. Just because house prices are doing well is, oddly enough, not necessarily evidence of a healthy market, but of one which is overinflated and increasingly sustained in price by offering houses to people on terms they can't possibly sustain. 

Last time I checked the average person needed £30000 per year to buy a house, and with average income at around £15000 whatever  it is sustaining the market it certainly isn't an underlying ability to maintain the mortage payments.

One of the things holding up the market is the more active entry of women into the labour force over the last 20 - 30 yrs. The general result of which hasn't been an increase in income per family, but a halfing of income per man and woman in relation to the average cost of a house.

This is also evidence of a stark and serious collapse in the quality of job and level of income per head during that time, alongside a pretty dreadful use of feminism to achieve this slashing of incomes, while propping up a very wobbly and overflated housing market.


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## cyberfairy (Mar 14, 2006)

munkeeunit said:
			
		

> The emergence of the 100% mortage was swiftly followed by the late 1980's collapse. Just because house prices are doing well is, oddly enough, not necessarily evidence of a healthy market, but of one which is overinflated and increasingly sustained in price by offering houses to people on terms they can't possibly sustain.
> 
> Last time I checked the average person needed £30000 per year to buy a house, and with average income at around £15000 whatever  it is sustaining the market it certainly isn't an underlying ability to maintain the mortage payments.
> 
> ...



Also I think this obsession with getting on the property ladder/doing up your house/selling it rather than buying a house when you can finally afford it and staying in it for rest of life and the whole buy to let thing is causing that wobble and you're right-the house market can't last for ever like this...As I said, a twobed terrace at over twohundred grand can sell in a few days here even with no parking and a big walk into town.


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## munkeeunit (Mar 14, 2006)

One of the 'solutions; in Japan has been the emergence of the 'generational mortage', with repayments of 50 - 100 years! Things like this have propped up their housing market to some extent, but also risks exposing the absurdity of the idea that by going £200,000 into debt you in fact own something  

If you don't own a house until your greatgrandchildren have paid off the mortage (or not) how can it possibly be called anything other than renting?


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## cyberfairy (Mar 14, 2006)

munkeeunit said:
			
		

> One of the 'solutions; in Japan has been the emergence of the 'generational mortage', with repayments of 50 - 100 years! Things like this have propped up their housing market to some extent, but also risks exposing the absurdity of the idea that by going £200,000 into debt you in fact own something
> 
> If you don't own a house until your greatgrandchildren have paid off the mortage (or not) how can it possibly be called anything other than renting?


with house prices the way they are here, you'de be lucky if it took only 100 years  
In Australia, every first time buyer gets a non refundable grant of (I think) $30 000 but could be more..This gets people onto property ladder as houses far cheaper in Australia and stops so many buy to let landlords as most people can afford their own place and buy to let people and people who buy and sell a house in space of year are heavily taxed.People thus are more on an equal footing, have a better standard of lifestyle as not spending all money on mortgage so money goes back into economy as people buying other things...I reckon there is far less crime and vandalism there as well as generally people (although lets not get into how immigrants, aboriginies etc fare  ) are better off, more satisfied with their lives so not binge drinking etc..


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## tangerinedream (Mar 14, 2006)

house prices (for terraces) have increased from an average of £50,000 to £150,000 over ten years. For Bath the increase has been from £78,000 to £247,000 in the same period. 

If you accept that if you are lucky a cost of living wage rise each year will be 3% it doesn't take a mathmatic genius to suggest that something is wrong here. 

Houses nationally are grossly overpriced. I can see this becoming an electoral issue as the likes of myself and miss faerie reach our 30s and cannot afford to buy any house anywhere (following these trends - we won't) without bankrupting ourself. 

It will become an interesting balancing act for the government - how do they satisfy the demand for access to the housing ladder from an ever growing and increasingly disenchanted group of people, whilst calming the fears of the slowly declining numbers of home owners. 

I wonder.....

*Scarpers back to own forum*


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## wiskey (Mar 15, 2006)

cyberfairy said:
			
		

> That's one thing really pissing me off! the houses in Combe Down were bought cheap by rich people and now the tax payer ie me, is paying to shore them up and thus make them worth far more to the individual who owns them, despite them knowing the risks and getting them cheap as a result  They still cost a fortune now though....



absolutely, it stinks doesnt it! mind you it was a bit short sighted of them not to realise that if you took all the insides of the hill out and built houses on top of it eventually you'd end up with more hole than hill. 

tangerine i totally understand what you mean, i've lived in brixton for over 20 years since my childhood (after the move from the west country which entitles me to be in this forum ) but there isnt a hope in hell that i will be able to buy my own house here anytime soon. i find it really depressing cos i either keep renting and essentially throwing money away or move somewhere else and buy.


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## djbombscare (Mar 15, 2006)

They said about this on the radio as I was travelling to work yesterday and its not just Bath, Apparentlly the govt are backing proposals for under grads to have 100% mortgages upto the value of £250,000


Which TBH I've got mixed feelings about.

Basicaslly it annoys the fucking shit out of me cos I have to fight to get a fucking bank account let alone a mortgage. 

I have never been able to afford to buy a house as the house prices are too much for me. The amount of mortgage I would be able to get, wouldn't even cover 2/3 of the price of a house, based on my wages. 

Yeah there the 100 years option blah blah blah. Part ownership etc. But IMO its got to be affordable monthly as well and I dont want to pay through the nsoe for something I wouldn't own 100% 

I have never even been able to get a credit card. . not that I ever want one. Yet they seem to throw them at students. 

That was all only point one.

Another reason it makes me annoyed is that lets just face it, its a govt fucking sham to try and keep the house market afloat. Its been due a fall for a few years now, and with no real new first time buyers in the market they want to do everything they can to try and inject a bit of fresh blood in there. Lets face it the only people buying are property developers wannabe landlords or people who already have property as no-one else can really afford it. Especially in places like the southwest where we have London prop prices and dark ages wages. 

And from what I've seen a lot of the prop devs are now moving to Dubai and Romania for there next fast buck. When we were in Spain in Feb they said that the makert there is falling as there are now to many properties and they are too expensive . The locals as well as the expats cannot afford to buy them now 

So IMO its a cunning ploy to try and inject some life into a market that is due a major fall and the govt have been massaging it for years now. 

Which leads me onto the next point, its in the govt interest to keep people in debt. People in debt = tax paying individuals. You have to work to pay your debts and get money to spend. If you work you pay tax and if you spend money you pay tax. So alterior motive in getting under grads to sign up to 250g's worth of debt, keep em in the work force and turn em round faster. 

A student with a student loan that doesn't have to be paid back until they hit a certain pay threshold can fuck off round the world for eons. 

A student with a 250g mortgage pretty much goes straight into work.

So if any student does take up the offer than they gotta be mad.


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## oooomegrapes (Mar 15, 2006)

munkeeunit said:
			
		

> They might be able to buy houses with 100% loans but how long will they keep them?
> 
> It's an indication that things are getting desperate in the housing market when they start removing the normal requirement of a healthy deposit, and which is the surest sign people have enough disposable income to afford one.
> 
> ...


very irresponsible to offer such a huge amount of money and responsibility on a plate.......a mortgage is no easy thing to deal with and shouldnt be taken lightly, this is just setting them up to fail


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## wiskey (Mar 15, 2006)

i agree with DJB that its a bad offer, i work in the NHS and we are constantly offered these part buy/part rent deals on really crappy properties in really stupid places. now i understand the key worker schemes and i spose essentially they are a good idea, but they never seem to be in the right places. 

i think its appalling that young people are being swept into huge amounts of debt (other than their student loan), i was given my first Credit card without even applying! and an overdraft i didnt want but wasnt allowed to get rid of. from there its a downward spiral. 

its disgraceful that we educate people and then bury them.


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## maomao (Mar 15, 2006)

djbombscare said:
			
		

> A student with a 250g mortgage pretty much goes straight into work.
> 
> So if any student does take up the offer than they gotta be mad.



The alternative being paying out 4-6k a year for a room in a shared house/bedsit whil trying to save up enough money to start buying one?

I graduated last year and have just been offered the family home for 200k (it's been valued at 230-240) but my bank won't lend me more than 60k on my current wage (28pa). I'd much rather take on the debt and have something that I can rent out for money than move into a shared house again and pour 400 a month down the drain.


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## fractionMan (Mar 15, 2006)

I'm not sure how any student could afford to take up the offer.  100% mortgage is fine, but you have to meet the repayments, which are massive on a 150000 loan.

The only places I can afford in bath are snow hill or twerton, which I'm starting to consider.


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## munkeeunit (Mar 15, 2006)

maomao said:
			
		

> The alternative being paying out 4-6k a year for a room in a shared house/bedsit whil trying to save up enough money to start buying one?
> 
> I graduated last year and have just been offered the family home for 200k (it's been valued at 230-240) but my bank won't lend me more than 60k on my current wage (28pa). I'd much rather take on the debt and have something that I can rent out for money than move into a shared house again and pour 400 a month down the drain.




That's a logic which works for people when the market is on the up, or has just finished it's crash and you can pick up a 'bargain', but when it's wobbling the way it is and increasingly sustained with gimmicks over income, then you've got to be mad to buy a house full stop at present, either that or ignorant of basic economics, or a reckless gambler. 

Prior to the late 80's crash house prices almost *never* fell. They flattened out, or lagged behind inflation for awhile, but they didn't fall. This is a new form of instability that we've seen emerge. It's a very serious indicator that not only may prices collapse again, but that next time there's no guarantee they'll recover for a very long time, if at all.

Once the inflationary effect of gimmicks have worn off, and our real incomes are exposed, it'll take a very inventive new set of economic crisis mechanisms to reinflate the market, and they're scraping the barrel of ideas as it is.

And the reason why the housing market now *has* to be propped up against all the odds, is because it's the rising equity creamed off the top of the artificial housing price inflation, which is funding the credit card debt, and in particular retail and service sectors.

Once the housing market humpty dumpty falls off the wall, everything breaks at once, and there are few new ideas around to put it back together again.

The good side is that some of us will suddenly find we can afford homes, but we'll have to be the lucky ones who escape the mass unemployment triggered when the retail and service sectors plunge into recession following the housing crash and associated credit crunch.

A poisoned challice for everyone.


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## djbombscare (Mar 15, 2006)

maomao said:
			
		

> The alternative being paying out 4-6k a year for a room in a shared house/bedsit whil trying to save up enough money to start buying one?




So just like everyone else in the real world has to cope with then !!

but you will have the option of 100% mortgage upto 250 grand . . .unlike any non grad who will still keep paying 4-6k a year fro nowt because they have no alternative

So sorry no sympnathy from me



> I graduated last year and have just been offered the family home for 200k (it's been valued at 230-240) but my bank won't lend me more than 60k on my current wage (28pa). I'd much rather take on the debt and have something that I can rent out for money than move into a shared house again and pour 400 a month down the drain.



And again welcome to the real world grad or no grad. If you wanna take on that debt as well as a student loan then that is down to you.

repayments on a 250g mortgage at 6.1% ( which is the shit rate @ nationwide) are £1645.24 per rmonth. if you drop that down to 4.1 which you could get your looking at £1347.71. thats over 25 years. 

Oh and if you want interest only your looking at £854.16@ 4.1% and £1270.83 @ 6.1%

No doubt Student will get a better rate but thats the size of it for eveyone else.

So now your looking at paying somewhere between £9,500 to £20,000 per year to hand your house over to the bank if you cant afford the repayments. . . nice one !!.

Oh and that just the mortage dont forget the rates, council tax, utilites. and food. 

Hope you've got a 50k + wage packet coming in. Cos after tax you aint gonna have a lot left.


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## Zaskar (Mar 15, 2006)

Calm down, 100% mortgages have always been around and surely it is a case of buyer beware when it comes to the repayments and the housing market boom bust cycle.

I would rather buy than pay some scum bag landlord anyday.

I got my modest abode on a 100% mortgage and I am very pleased I did.  It cost me a third of my income at the time, but now my payments are only 100 a month, about 5 % of my income.  

Credit in all it's guises is not an obligation, it is a choice.  Many are carefull and benefit, many are not and suffer.  That is sad but many of those are driven by greed and bring it all on themselves.


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## maomao (Mar 15, 2006)

djbombscare said:
			
		

> Oh and that just the mortage dont forget the rates, council tax, utilites. and food.
> 
> Hope you've got a 50k + wage packet coming in. Cos after tax you aint gonna have a lot left.



I've got 28k coming in which isn;t enough on it's own but I've got three empty bedrooms in an area near a uni, that's worth 3x80pw during term time. I've sat down and done the sums, it works. Chances of getting a mortgage are still pretty low.


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## munkeeunit (Mar 15, 2006)

maomao said:
			
		

> I've got 28k coming in which isn;t enough on it's own but I've got three empty bedrooms in an area near a uni, that's worth 3x80pw during term time. I've sat down and done the sums, it works. Chances of getting a mortgage are still pretty low.



The sums probably only add up if you're assuming all prices remain at their peak, but they won't. As soon as the housing market slumps you'll be stuck with paying off your overflated mortage at the peak price, while the amount you can rake in in rent will start to collapse down to slump prices.

This will start to leave a pretty big and growing gap in your sums.

The banks know this, and is know doubt why they aren't interested.


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## djbombscare (Mar 16, 2006)

*Big post warning*

Hmmm yep, and to top it all once the bank start repossing and flogging off the houses at auction there go the prices. 

There a couple of factors that come into play last year and this is pretty much why the Govt stepped into to . . er . . .* whispers* assist the Rover thing last year. 

If you've got a job and money in your pocket your going to do your best to buy a house. Particularly if your feeling a bit flush.

Thing is at the moment cost are going up mostly above the rate of inflation. Energy costs in particular. There is also the revaluing of property on order to change the band that a proeprty is in. Basically my point is that everything is getting more expensive which in turn is leading to people feeling that they dont have money in there pocket. When you add in the cost of repayments on a mortgage it is slightly cheaper to rent. Thsi would lead to a lack of new buyers in the market. People WANT to buy BUT they've been priced out. 

Now with the Rover thing. If rover shut down that would be the pin to burst the property bubble, A workforce unemployed would lead to an huge leap in people looking for work and when the major producer in an area goes down there nowhere to go. So it is likely that this would lead to long term unemployment in that area. People without jobs cant pay mortgages. 

Not only that but then there are all the people that partly rely on that major industry as they supply it are contracted to it etc etc. When it shuts they have to lay off staff as well. So more people in the job market etc etc. 

Now this will work one of two way no payments on a mortgage and the banks start repossesing. They flog them at auction for stupid money. Prices are low and people from outside of the region will come into buy up, as people in the region may not have the cash. The reason why they buy them not important but what it means is that whether they are communting to there place of work renting them out, it will ower the dmenad in other area's for hosuing which in turn brings down the prices elsewhere. Its simple demand and supply stuff but you get me drift.

Now currenetly in the uk a lot of businesses are outsourcing employmnet to places like bangalore, a lot of manufacturing is going downsizing because production costs in Asia is cheaper. Even Terry's chocolate oranges are now being made in somewhere like Poland. 

Jobs in the UK are on the move to foreign lands, and what with prices going up etc we are exporting money abroad like its going out of style. Fooking hell even the govt changed their financial year end, moved it on six months or so so that they could BORROW MORE MONEY !!!

It feels a bit like the 1970's again when labour were last in. I really dont think they want to get in next time and look like they are on a bit of a self destruct in order to let the next govt deal with it all. 

Anyway point I'm trying to make is that that is only one factor and a way that the house market could go pop. 

There are shitloads more and unless your really in the financial markets you wont always see what is going on behind the scene's. 

The property market has been kept alive by the govt as it was safe bet after the stock market crashes round 2000 and was a way to have some growth in the UK. The housing market has been kept bouyant by some complete shams on behalf of the govt as they have a vested interest. And this bubble is unnaturally tooo big, its completely priced out. 

100 year motgages, part buys, oooh and my personal favorite tax free housebuying on brown field sites upto  I think it was the value of 60k when the hcepaest you could possibley get anywhere in the Uk was like 75k 

Anyway this is just the latest way to try and hoodwink the voting public in an attempt to keep it bouyant, and inject some newbuyers into the market.

Strange thing is this could be what brings it down

If you wanna pay over the next 100 years 250 grand for 50 grands worth of bricks and mortar. Thats your own personal choice. . maybe it wont go pop but if it does you are still paying 250k for soemthing that has a value of 100k.

You've got to take that into cosndieration as well before you make that choice.

Personaly I'm saving up to fuck off and buy abroad


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## cyberfairy (Mar 16, 2006)

Top post! Nowt much more thatpossible to add! All the people fecking off abroad is going to make things worse as well-a big glut of graduates leaving a hole behind them..My mum says *said in squeaky annoying voice* that Exeter carboot is filled with people fleeing the country and not iintending to come back..
See you in Bulgaria


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## tangerinedream (Mar 16, 2006)

cyberfairy said:
			
		

> Top post! Nowt much more thatpossible to add! All the people fecking off abroad is going to make things worse as well-a big glut of graduates leaving a hole behind them..My mum says *said in squeaky annoying voice* that Exeter carboot is filled with people fleeing the country and not iintending to come back..
> See you in Bulgaria



albania


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## munkeeunit (Mar 16, 2006)

Hmmmm... when 'we' flee the country due to economic conditions we get to buy up spanking spanish villas on the cheap. When others flee countries due to economic conditions they get demonised as 'bogus' immigrants and given £15 - £30 in vouchers to live on. 

The economic imbalances run very deep. 

And of course, when the housing market pops, and brings on the credit crunch, the current demonisation of others for having the courage to up sticks from their country of origin, for economic reasons, will no doubt become even more visceral and sick making in nature.

Despite everything, we're better off hoping they can prop up the housing market against all the odds, while (hopefully) economic fixes are made to the underlying economy. The 'British' still have a very ugly and racist underbelly, shared by all the main political parties at root in times of economic crisis.


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## cyberfairy (Mar 16, 2006)

munkeeunit said:
			
		

> Hmmmm... when 'we' flee the country due to economic conditions we get to buy up spanking spanish villas on the cheap. When others flee countries due to economic conditions they get demonised as 'bogus' immigrants and given £15 - £30 in vouchers to live on.
> 
> The economic imbalances run very deep.
> 
> ...



and also when we move to other countries we inflate their market value causing the locals there to have to search further afield  *considers moon*


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## tangerinedream (Mar 16, 2006)

cyberfairy said:
			
		

> and also when we move to other countries we inflate their market value causing the locals there to have to search further afield  *considers moon*



it's made of cheese y'know  

(mild cheese)


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## djbombscare (Mar 17, 2006)

munkeeunit said:
			
		

> Hmmmm... when 'we' flee the country due to economic conditions we get to buy up spanking spanish villas on the cheap. When others flee countries due to economic conditions they get demonised as 'bogus' immigrants and given £15 - £30 in vouchers to live on.
> 
> The economic imbalances run very deep.
> 
> ...



Er. . .mate I think you'll find there is a bit of a difference between people coming to the UK and people buying up property in foreign lands. 

I understand what your saying and can see the links, but I think you'll find that they're pretty much worlds apart.


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## munkeeunit (Mar 17, 2006)

djbombscare said:
			
		

> Er. . .mate I think you'll find there is a bit of a difference between people coming to the UK and people buying up property in foreign lands.
> 
> I understand what your saying and can see the links, but I think you'll find that they're pretty much worlds apart.



I think they are very much part of the same thing, although the links become more hazy and complex.

Old fashioned colonialism has largely shifted from direct miliary intervention (alhough with Iraq, Afghanistan, etc the pendulum is again shifting), to the colonialism of gated communities under armed guard to keep out the locals, and 'private' beaches, water and electricity supplies for 'tourists' only. 

Same old buying up of their resources on the artificially enforced cheap, it's just that the khaki uniform has been largely, for now, replaced by the bikini and suit.

Fortress europe is designed to keep foreigners out while we continue to buy up their assets via 'structural adjustment' programs designed by western banks for western profits. Not only are impoverished foreign countries denied use of their own resources, they are also increasingly denied access to resources by travelling to the countries they have been shipped back to.

It's all part of the same puzzle artificially propping up our economy against the odds. Even when we flee abroad the beauty / ugliness of the machine is that most of the wealth continues to be repatriated back into our national GNP measurements, as the 'gated areas' become defacto extensions of our own economic area known as Great Britain (& Europe).

Credit crunch furthed abated, housing market remains propped up.


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## djbombscare (Mar 17, 2006)

I dont think old fashoined colonialism is the same as a lot of OAP's moving to an area. 

Just to check I looked up on an online dictionary for a couple of proper defintions:



> A policy by which a nation maintains or extends its control over foreign dependencies.





> n : exploitation by a stronger country of weaker one; the use of the weaker country's resources to strengthen and enrich the stronger country





I know what your saying. . . but a load of old bids moving to spain is not an invading force to plunder the resources of the locality. 

I know what your saying but people are not moving to create gated private communties as a way of colonialisation. 

Yes they may be moving to gated communties but I think that is more to do with what property developers etc have created rather than lest lock ourselves away from the locals. If locals wanted to move to a gated community then I doubt that anyone would object. 

But as is the case say in somewhere like Torrevieja a lot of English ex pats have moved there and none of the Spanish locals would want to live there. Firstly as the prices are probably too expensive and secondly cos it is now classed as full of english and is a target for criminals, better pickings apparentelly. 

So Sorry man but to say that it is old fashioned colonialism is IMO trying to cut it in with a very broad brush. 

They're not moving to invade, its more a move to escape this country, and there not really there to plunder any resources more bring more money into a local economy. 

If you want to include that as old fashoined colonialism than on the same count anyone who comes to the UK to live off state handouts could also be classed as old fashoined colonialism. They are not bringing anything in but they are plundering what resources are available. 


It would be good to discuss this but I think we're seriously in danger of de-railling this thread


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## munkeeunit (Mar 17, 2006)

Except I didn't say it was old fashioned colonialism, but a more sophisticated breed of colonialism with which to achieve the same effects of artificially maintaining the huge inequalities between countries.

Nations will almost always prefer to achieve the plundering of resuources through established markets and the aggregated acts of individuals, who, from there own perspective are simply following price signals.

It may be an uncomfortable reality for us to accept, but the armed cordening off of the must affluent aspects of impoverished countries resources to satisfy our desire for consumer goods, cheap holidays, and gated community housing does make us very complicit in the very criminal, yet largely free-market orientated, morden economic colonialism.

Sorry, but I never have much faith in any argument which is reliant on a dictionary definition to sustain it. The world, and the ever evolving free market economics of colonialism, are a lot more complicated than that.


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## munkeeunit (Mar 17, 2006)

Interesting article. 

For the most part the Economist is a bastion of right-wing economic myth and spin to suit whatever denial of crisis is the flavour of the day, but every now and again their own bubble of self deluding spin bursts, and they themselves will admit to the severity of the crisis. 

This was written 9 months ago, and so the 'sometime next year' is about now.

http://www.economist.com/opinion/displayStory.cfm?story_id=4079458

"... This boom is unprecedented in terms of both the number of countries involved and the record size of house-price gains. Measured by the increase in asset values over the past five years, the global housing boom is the biggest financial bubble in history (see article). The bigger the boom, the bigger the eventual bust... "

Also linked to within the article.

http://www.economist.com/opinion/displaystory.cfm?story_id=4079027


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## djbombscare (Mar 17, 2006)

*Relating to post 33*

Er . . .nah. . . you've lost me now   

I understood before but I aint got a fecking clue what your on about now. 

I thought in your previous post that you said that: 

Old fashioned colonialism has largely shifted from direct miliary intervention *snips brackets* to the colonialism of gated communities under armed guard to keep out the locals, and 'private' beaches, water and electricity supplies for 'tourists' only.

So that says to me that your saying that old fashoined colonialism has changed into the gated community thing. Therefore you were saying that it is old fashoined colonialism.

There are also gated communities in the UK. So would that be colonialisation of locals by locals ? What countries are involved in artificially maintaining the huge inequalities between countries then ? Would it be regional colonialisation ? What if people who were locals also lived in that gated community would they be included in the colonialisation or are they just blind to the facts of who they are cos they have money ?



> Nations will almost always prefer to achieve the plundering of resuources through established markets and the aggregated acts of individuals, who, from there own perspective are simply following price signals



Thats not colonialisation thats an open market isn't it ? We dont colonise a country if we purchase goods from it do we ?




> It may be an uncomfortable reality for us to accept, but the armed cordening off of the must affluent aspects of impoverished countries resources to satisfy our desire for consumer goods, cheap holidays, and gated community housing does make us very complicit in the very criminal, yet largely free-market orientated, morden economic colonialism


.

That the point where I get lost so educate me  



> Sorry, but I never have much faith in any argument which is reliant on a dictionary definition to sustain it. The world, and the ever evolving free market economics of colonialism, are a lot more complicated than that.



The dictionary quote is a ref to what the definition of colonialisation is. Now as we operate on the english language it would be a good starting point for someone to understand the english meaning of a specific word. And I have given the two definitions of the word colonialisation, That is to help my point of what I understand colonialism to be. 

You might use it in a different context as much as I could say that "_the movement of OAP's abroad was not colonialisation but ideed was an act of Fred that relates purely and simply to the antidisestablishmentarianism of the Saggyits of the modern day cuckoo clock. _ " perfect clear and understandable to me but to eevryone else it means fuck all

So in order for me to put my point and where I couldn't really see the relationship between the two. I was using that to explain my take on the word colonialism. So its not an argument based on a dictonary

Anway lets open it up for debate on a new thread rather than derailing this one anymore, cos I wanna understand your points

You start the thread and I'll get the beers in. . when I get home and after some food that is


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## munkeeunit (Mar 17, 2006)

Colonialism continues to shift and change in nature while the unequal power relationships between countries and people fundamentally remain the same.

South Africa is the perfect example. 

Very little has changed in South Africa since the official ending of Apartheid, itself a relic of old fashioned colonialism.

The shanty towns are still as large and impoverished as ever, and South Africa also happens to be at the forefront of the gated community phenomena.

White people are still enjoying all the fruits of the economy behind armed guards, while, for example, the shanty towns have their water supplies increasigly cut off by a black governement.

A thin sliver of black middle classes have been allowed behind the gate. 

Apartheid and colonialism remain in place.

The British still have homes they can flee to in gated white South Africa.

PS: I consider this to be very much part of the same debate, so I'm not conceeding that it isn't by setting up a new thread.


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## Dissident Junk (Mar 17, 2006)

Good posts, guys.  

Over the last four years, I've kept a keen eye on house prices, largely because I couldn't quite believe how people accepted the massive increase in prices (I remember around 97, a friend of mine bought a 3-bed large flat in SE London for 97K, the same property is now worth 250K; two up/two downs in the same area are on the market for 230K when, in all reality, they are not worth much more than 100K).

I think we are heading for an economic mess beyond compare. The housing market, on a international basis, has been used to prop up consumer spending, as I see it, to avoid the shocks of a global recession we should have had about five years ago.  The air-filled centre of this bubble simply cannot continue to hold - there has to be a correction, and it is going to hurt.

Interestingly, there is also an unbelievable housing bubble in Cyprus at the moment, largely fuelled by the notion that loads of expats are going to buy up houses and flats at silly prices (like 110K for a two bed). The rate of development is extraordinary, yet these new builds are standing vacant for months and months while developers continue to ask for their high prices (This is a place where the average wage is around £600 a month). Considering the situation, a UK housing crash will probably wipe out a large section of the island's economy (seeing as it is, largely, all tourist and property developer-based).


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## djbombscare (Mar 17, 2006)

munkeeunit said:
			
		

> Colonialism continues to shift and change in nature while the unequal power relationships between countries and people fundamentally remain the same.
> 
> South Africa is the perfect example.
> 
> ...



Ok im with ya again and I can see where your going. 

I dont know if there is currently much of a mass migartion of people escaping the Uk to S Africa at the moment, is there ?

And that is a completely different kettle of fish, from what I was talking about. 

Historically it is already been a part of colonialisation from Northen Europeans. So communites already Existed out there before the end of Apartheid and the biggoted-ism behind those gated communities is very old indeed. 

But that to me is more and issue of racism from White people that consider themselves to be S african, than colonisation from OAP' s moving out to escape the bad weather and the UK. 

I thought we were talking about current migration of people selling up and moving abroad. so is this currently happening ?

And how could this be related to people moving to France, Spain, Portugal, Rromania, Florida, Dubai etc etc ?


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## munkeeunit (Mar 17, 2006)

Well, I definitely concede that the links get more fuzzy and a lot less clear cut, so the whole thing is a bit of a tangent. I think the main point I'm making is that these colonial  outposts are still fundamentaly in place, and when the housing market does go splatt there's a world of gated communities out there with housing at discounted prices for people to flock to (if not flood).

The extent to which these outposts are made use of very much depends on when people decide that the market has peaked, and whether they think the downturn will be severe enough for them risk uprooting themselves.

If they need to be used in this way by the 'elite' who can afford it, the option is very much being kept on the table.


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## djbombscare (Mar 17, 2006)

And now munkee I'm back with ya and know what your saying  

YAY !!!


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