# I've been accused of being part of clique.



## Part 2 (Mar 29, 2014)

Yesterday I met with my manager who advised me that I was perceived as being part of a clique. No-one has actually named me or the others involved but the desks where myself and a number of close friends sit have been spoken of. My manager said there have been several reports of peoole feeling they wouldnt feel comfortable sitting with us and the words 'excluded' and ' intimidating' have been used. She herself said she has noticed things over about 12 months and believes that because we are friends outside work that this is spilling over into the office causing people to feel excluded.

I'm not comfortable with this. I've always been seen as someone who's approachable and the reason we support each other imo is because that's what teams do, particularly when the management support is minimal. We dont actively exclude, in fact different people come to sit on the adjacent desks quite frequently. We get on with the job and do it very well, never any complaints.

Without the specifics of the situation being known or who it is I've upset I'm at a loss as to what I can do and I cant help but think who if might be but manager is saying it could be construed as bullying and harassment...which oddly is how I feel.

Any advice? 

I'm going to speak with the union today just to see what they have to say.


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## fredfelt (Mar 29, 2014)

You could start by asking in what way your manager wants you to change your behaviour. 

Then at least you can do something about it - even if that is to tell your manager to fuck off, in so many words.


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## fucthest8 (Mar 29, 2014)

I'm a member of a really close knit team and we have to be really careful about exactly this sort of thing. Its very easy for that closeness to be intimidating to outsiders. Like you, I _think_ I'm really approachable, but the very way a team like mine and yours works means it doesn't always look that way.

Wind your neck in a bit and discuss how you can improve the situation. In our case, just a bit of mindfulness helps - actively being welcoming when people come to see us.


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## Miss-Shelf (Mar 29, 2014)

Its a tricky one cos imo people have a right to be friends with colleagues and not have to include others in that as long as they are approachable for work matters - other colleagues need to be able to approach you to get on with their work
as fucthest8 says you may not appear to be approachable to others and this might be impeding work relationships

I suppose your next move depends on what you think of your manager and how she has gone about this.  In one way she might have done the right thing speaking with you ahead of any more formal grievance from a colleague in an effort to diffuse a situation.  If you have good communication with her and you think she has all the teams best interests at heart then maybe you're willing to play ball

If you think she's either being played by other  team members and passing that on to you or that this is coming from her own feelings or if you don't have a good relationship with her then you might not want to play this one


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## Glitter (Mar 29, 2014)

I think what fredfelt said is really important. What you've been told is, currently, a matter of perception so you could all take steps that you perceive to have solved the problem but since it's so subjective you could spend all your time second guessing what they actually want and achieving nothing but strained and stilted relationships within your team with nobody knowing if/when they're 'allowed' to talk to each other.

You need to ask your manager what exactly they want, what would it look like, what steps you can take to achieve it and what measures will be in place.


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## friedaweed (Mar 29, 2014)

God I miss open plan offices 

Sea monkeys in the water fountain, swapping people coffee, leaving the fridge untidy LOL

Personally I'd go with fredfelt  and ask her what she suggests you do to appease these precious little darlings who are probably the real clique in all of this


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## Voley (Mar 29, 2014)

Glitter said:


> You need to ask your manager what exactly they want, what would it look like, what steps you can take to achieve it and what measures will be in place.


Totally agree with this. Go back to your manager saying you've had a think about what s/he said and would like some advice on what steps can be taken to resolve the situation. If they don't come up with anything concrete you shouldn't be expected to, either. I bet they'll come back with some wishy-washy 'well there's a perception that you're ...' type stuff. Stick to your guns and ask what you've got to do to sort it out.


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## DaveCinzano (Mar 29, 2014)

Without knowing more about the specifics of all this, it's difficult to say very much, except perhaps that the manager has failed to manage appropriately.

That “there have been several reports of peoole feeling they wouldnt feel comfortable sitting with us”, whilst “She herself said she has noticed things over about 12 months” suggests that any potential issue could (and maybe should) have been dealt with long before it became an actual problem.


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## goldenecitrone (Mar 29, 2014)

fredfelt said:


> You could start by asking in what way your manager wants you to change your behaviour.
> 
> Then at least you can do something about it - even if that is to tell your manager to fuck off, in so many words.



Definitely. Get it in writing if you can. That could be fun.


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## DotCommunist (Mar 29, 2014)

tell him its a workplace not  a playground so go fuck himself


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## DaveCinzano (Mar 29, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> tell him its a workplace not  a playground so go fuck himself


I'm telling Laurie you gendered someone.


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## spanglechick (Mar 29, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> tell him its a workplace not  a playground so go fuck himself


Him?

The OP mentions that the manager is a woman.  Careful, your patriarchy is showing.


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## spanglechick (Mar 29, 2014)

Also, while it's doubtlessly unpleasant for the OP, and the manager has been a little woolly in how they've addressed it, I think this sort of social thing does need addressing at work.  The 'it's a school not a playground' line could be used to say workplace bullying shouldn't be addressed either.

If a situation has formed, albeit inadvertently, where others feel less welcome or uneasy about contributing with the wider team, because of in-jokes, or conversations they can't join in with or whatever, than it's a good manager's job to address that - not just because it may effect the work that is done, but because management have a duty of care for Health and Safety, and that includes emotional health and safety.


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## Part 2 (Mar 29, 2014)

Thanks. I think every suggestion is something I've already thought of. I'm not unwilling to accept that someone feels uncomfortable and wouldn't want them to feel this way so if there's something I can do by all means I'll give it a go and I'm sure my 'clique' will too. I'm very wary though that any efforts made to improve things could make things worse if this is about perception.

My relationship with my manager is good but on this there's definitely the possibility she's being played. 

One of my friends already suggested we should ask to meet and get them to state exactly what they want us to change. She has a different manager who so far has dealt with the issue very differently to mine, in fact denying that she felt there was an issue when asked.


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## bmd (Mar 29, 2014)

Knowing you on a personal basis I would just like to add that if ever there was a less cliquey person, someone who in fact actively hates cliques, it's you. I'm not trying to dismiss their concerns when I say this but if this is the first you've heard of it then what has happened to the step where they take you to one side, outline their concerns and ask you if there's anything you can both do to address them? Again, knowing you like I do I believe you'd bend over backwards to sort it out. Sorry but this seems like someone who hasn't got the skills to interact, feels left out and won't own their behaviour.

Oh and one more thing, I'm not going to mention the field you work in but if they can't talk to a colleague about this issue then I'm rather surprised they're working in that job.


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## equationgirl (Mar 29, 2014)

Now I work somewhere where there _is_ a clique. It does have a detrimental effect on the rest of the department, because the clique applies rules and guidelines differently depending on whether you're part of the clique or not (and I'm definitely not).

If your manager can't give you specific instances of how this 'clique' has affected others and what should be changed about your behaviour, then it is (in my opinion) not a valid comment. If you, Chip Barm are always approachable and professional then I don't understand what more you can do.

Ultimately, we are not at work to make friends. Sometimes, though, we do and that's great, but that's almost an unintended consequence. Most of the time we have to work with people we are not friends with. We can be friendly with them (i.e. not rude or objectionable) but not necessary friends.


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## Part 2 (Mar 29, 2014)

Good to see you back mate.


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## bmd (Mar 29, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> Now I work somewhere where there _is_ a clique. It does have a detrimental effect on the rest of the department, because the clique applies rules and guidelines differently depending on whether you're part of the clique or not (and I'm definitely not).
> 
> If your manager can't give you specific instances of how this 'clique' has affected others and what should be changed about your behaviour, then it is (in my opinion) not a valid comment. If you, Chip Barm are always approachable and professional then I don't understand what more you can do.
> 
> Ultimately, we are not at work to make friends. Sometimes, though, we do and that's great, but that's almost an unintended consequence. Most of the time we have to work with people we are not friends with. We can be friendly with them (i.e. not rude or objectionable) but not necessary friends.


 
A clique at work is just shit and when they actively try to ostracise anyone who's not a part of it then a manager should step in. Most of us spend more time with work colleagues than our loved ones so any attempt by anyone to make that harder than it is can have a huge impact. I really understand how detrimental to a positive work environment a clique can be but Chip just isn't like that. Makes me want to rip their face off, run it through a mangle and nail it on backwards. Proportional response and all that.


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## tim (Mar 29, 2014)

Sorry, incompetent posting.

If  you were as inept as me you'd need a clique to protect you.


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## bmd (Mar 29, 2014)

You've used invisible ink tim.


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## tim (Mar 29, 2014)

Perhaps, those in management feel threatened by your solidarity. In which case carry on as normal.


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## tim (Mar 29, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> Ultimately, we are not at work to make friends. Sometimes, though, we do and that's great, but that's almost an unintended consequence. Most of the time we have to work with people we are not friends with. We can be friendly with them (i.e. not rude or objectionable) but not necessary friends.



Ultimately, we are at work to make our employers richer and to get the resources we ne to survive. So, whilst we may not be at work to make fiends, we would be fools not to build alliances of solidarity with our co-workers. Those employing us would be fools if they'd didn't do their best to stop those alliances being built


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## equationgirl (Mar 29, 2014)

bmd said:


> A clique at work is just shit and when they actively try to ostracise anyone who's not a part of it then a manager should step in. Most of us spend more time with work colleagues than our loved ones so any attempt by anyone to make that harder than it is can have a huge impact. I really understand how detrimental to a positive work environment a clique can be but Chip just isn't like that. Makes me want to rip their face off, run it through a mangle and nail it on backwards. Proportional response and all that.


I have no doubt that Chip Barm is a decent chap.

I used to sit next to two members of a clique. I would leave my desk to go to the kitchen or whatever and when I would come back they would whispering and stop when I got close. They would talk about nights out and meals out and I would never get invited, and they would make it clear I wasn't invited. The only time the ringleader was vaguely nice to me was when her daughter started doing those candle party things and she gave me a catalogue for ghastly expensive candles expecting me to buy something! The catalogue was returned with a firm but polite 'no thank you'. In the end I moved to a different desk because the clique was loud, rude and disruptive and our manager wasn't interested in actually managing them. 

It can be very lonely sitting next to people who make it clear you're not part of their group.


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## Puddy_Tat (Mar 29, 2014)

Dunno really.

An existing community where people already know each other can take a bit of effort to get the hang of / integrate with.  That does not necessarily make it a 'clique'

Having said that, it is possible to behave (without actively trying to do) in a way that can exclude newcomers, for example if there's a lot of in jokes etc which are never explained to newcomers.

In the workplace, it's difficult to strike a sensible balance.

Are the newcomers being actively and genuinely invited to join in with things?  And the smaller (but can be significant) things like rounds when tea is made, sharing of cakes*, the pools / lottery syndicate, after work drinks and so on?

On the other hand, some people feel uncomfortable if they feel forced to join in with 'compulsory fun' in the workplace.

What is 'the done thing' at workplaces does vary - if someone has joined from an environment where you address each other as 'mr smith' (or whatever) and social interaction doesn't go much further than a quiet 'good morning' then a much less formal workplace may come as something of a shock.

If boss is talking about 'bullying and harrassment' then at the very least someone has really got hold of the wrong end of the stick here, quite possibly some of what goes on within the team is open to misinterpretation, at worst, some stuff is being (probably unintentionally) done which is making one or more newcomers uncomfortable.

I'd be inclined to ask boss wtf they mean

* - the significance of cake in workplace dynamics is significantly under-recognised.


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## equationgirl (Mar 29, 2014)

The significance of cake in workplace dynamics IS under-recognised Puddy_Tat - it is amazing how much smoother things can go with the aid of some lemon drizzle cake or some millionaire's shortbread.


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## bmd (Mar 29, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> I have no doubt that Chip Barm is a decent chap.
> 
> I used to sit next to two members of a clique. I would leave my desk to go to the kitchen or whatever and when I would come back they would whispering and stop when I got close. They would talk about nights out and meals out and I would never get invited, and they would make it clear I wasn't invited. The only time the ringleader was vaguely nice to me was when her daughter started doing those candle party things and she gave me a catalogue for ghastly expensive candles expecting me to buy something! The catalogue was returned with a firm but polite 'no thank you'. In the end I moved to a different desk because the clique was loud, rude and disruptive and our manager wasn't interested in actually managing them.
> 
> It can be very lonely sitting next to people who make it clear you're not part of their group.


 
This is truly shit. And bullying really because they will know their behaviour is hurtful. Take some paraquat drizzle cake in and offer them a large slice.


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## equationgirl (Mar 29, 2014)

bmd said:


> This is truly shit. And bullying really because they will know their behaviour is hurtful. Take some paraquat drizzle cake in and offer them a large slice.


It wasn't great. Moving desk was the best thing I did and totally worth it for the looks on their faces. It also got me away from a junior colleague who starting acting like he was my boss when he categorically wasn't.

These days I am sat with our in-house software team who are fab, and my boss is decent. I mostly get to ignore the clique who have been split up and two are being sent to different offices. Karmic payback


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## Part 2 (Mar 29, 2014)

That does sound really awful eqgirl.

The amount of cakes/food/sweets in my office is pretty obscene at times!

We've had quite a few new members of staff over the period in question. One has obviously come from a very different office environment, we're quite casual and she's been surprised at how much so I think. All the same she's joined us at times and we got her involved in crumpet taste tests (she was wrong mind you,  Aldi > Warburtons). Several others have come to sit with us too so just for that reason I wonder what kind of person might feel less able to do so.

In fact the manager dropped one big hint saying that someone may feel judged or vulnerable after coming back from long term sick. There's a someone who's had two periods of 6 months off in the last 2 years and has said in the office about wanting more time off. I suspect she may be creating a situation.


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## Schmetterling (Mar 29, 2014)

Sounds like someone baaaaadly wants to be your friend and be liked by you!  I am exaggerating, of course. 

Excellent advice above about asking the manager to define exactly what it is that has made other people uncomfortable; as you have already thought of asking.  Because, I think, if no specifics are given, then that can leave you (by the way, have the others in your 'clique' been spoken to as well?) really insecure, forever thinking about your actions and modifying behaviour for fear of upsetting and that, as stated above, would be a form of bullying you.


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## equationgirl (Mar 29, 2014)

Chip Barm said:


> That does sound really awful eqgirl.
> 
> The amount of cakes/food/sweets in my office is pretty obscene at times!
> 
> ...


It is hard when someone comes back from a long time off sick. There's always someone being judgmental about whether or not the illness was (in their judgmental eyes) real. With the long-term sick and chronically ill being so judged in the media at the moment I'm not surprised that someone may feel this way. 

But if that isn't happening, this person is being treated like everybody else and there are no malicious rumours about the nature of their illness then you have to wonder why they are being like this.


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## Glitter (Mar 29, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> It is hard when someone comes back from a long time off sick. There's always someone being judgmental about whether or not the illness was (in their judgmental eyes) real. With the long-term sick and chronically ill being so judged in the media at the moment I'm not surprised that someone may feel this way.
> 
> But if that isn't happening, this person is being treated like everybody else and there are no malicious rumours about the nature of their illness then you have to wonder why they are being like this.



I suspect that in this case the person returning from long term sick has been managed back in before they felt they were ready and are now looking for a situation that could create another absence - if the sick policy is similar to ours at the very least it would need to be another illness to swerve disciplinary action. 'Work related stress' would be something new that would also put the responsibility onto the employer with all that comes with it.

I could be barking up the wrong dog but that's how I read Chip Barm 's post.


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## Part 2 (Mar 29, 2014)

That's about it.


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## equationgirl (Mar 29, 2014)

Chip Barm said:


> That's about it.


Is this person on a phased return at all, where they build back up to full time hours over a few weeks?


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## Part 2 (Mar 29, 2014)

She's been back at least 6 months, works part time and did get phased return yes.

(Do remember I'm speculating it's even her of course.)


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## equationgirl (Mar 29, 2014)

Chip Barm said:


> She's been back at least 6 months, works part time and did get phased return yes.
> 
> (Do remember I'm speculating it's even her of course.)


Of course.

It's very hard to do anything if you haven't been given anything specific to go on. And without specifics it does make me think there's nothing really there. So long as you continue to behave professionally, as I'm sure you do at work, and remain approachable without being overly welcoming around any one person, then for now I think that's as much as you can do.


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## Glitter (Mar 29, 2014)

Chip Barm said:


> That's about it.



In which case I think it's even more important you get it nailed down what they want with a paper/email trail.

If the employer ends up in a situation where they may be liable for this person's health issues they might want to find scapegoats.


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## DairyQueen (Mar 29, 2014)

Chip Barm said:


> Yesterday I met with my manager who advised me that I was perceived as being part of a clique. No-one has actually named me or the others involved but the desks where myself and a number of close friends sit have been spoken of. My manager said there have been several reports of peoole feeling they wouldnt feel comfortable sitting with us and the words 'excluded' and ' intimidating' have been used. She herself said she has noticed things over about 12 months and believes that because we are friends outside work that this is spilling over into the office causing people to feel excluded.
> 
> I'm not comfortable with this. I've always been seen as someone who's approachable and the reason we support each other imo is because that's what teams do, particularly when the management support is minimal. We dont actively exclude, in fact different people come to sit on the adjacent desks quite frequently. We get on with the job and do it very well, never any complaints.
> 
> ...



Speak to a union mate, try and get a new manager.  Sounds like a right tit.


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## Cloo (Mar 30, 2014)

I think the key thing, as has been suggested is to focus on solutions and not be defensive, even if you feel wronged.


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## Schmetterling (Mar 30, 2014)

One other thought; you said the manager had mentioned that she had noticed cliquy (?how the hell is that spelt?) for about twelve months and that she had made hints about a person who was returning from sick leave possibly feeling alienated from your group?  Mmm-kay; bit too far maybe but it did make me think it is actually the manager who is feeling 'left out' but shifting focus away from herself.

Now I read that the returnee has been back for six months but the manager had spoken of a 12 month period?  Hmmmm.... 

ETA I see you said 'at least six months'.


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## equationgirl (Mar 30, 2014)

Managers can't be part of the group though, not if they still want to manage properly.


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## Corax (Mar 30, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> Managers can't be part of the group though, not if they still want to manage properly.


I disagree tbh. Depends on the style of management. And if you've got a good team then a consensual style not only works, but makes people happier too. A 'manager' isn't a superior person to the people they're managing, they've just got a different role - and are (should be) more accountable for their team's performance.


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## equationgirl (Mar 30, 2014)

Corax said:


> I disagree tbh. Depends on the style of management. And if you've got a good team then a consensual style not only works, but makes people happier too. A 'manager' isn't a superior person to the people they're managing, they've just got a different role - and are (should be) more accountable for their team's performance.


Where I've seen it not work is when the manager is too much part of the group (or in what I've seen, too friendly with the clique), which then seems to have the effect of alienating those not in the clique.


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## dessiato (Mar 30, 2014)

I've spent a little time reading this thread. One thing occurs to me. Is it only you, out of this alleged clique, that has been spoken to, and, if so, why not the others?


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## Part 2 (Mar 30, 2014)

Schmetterling said:


> Mmm-kay; bit too far maybe but it did make me think it is actually the manager who is feeling 'left out' but shifting focus away from herself.



No this has been suggested too, in fact almost admitted by her. She hates sitting in an office on her own and occasionally comes out to talk about what people are doing at the weekend, her dog, whats been on telly etc. 

Today my head was up my arse with it again so I wrote down and considered things that were said, there's a lot of inconsistency. 

I'm gonna speak with union tomorrow. I've got a problem with them saying no-one has been named then saying "it's these desks here" where the same people regularly sit. It feels sly. 

I'll ask to meet first thing Tuesday when I'm back in, tell them what I think they could do and ask what specific things need to change. The inference is that friendships are 'spilling over into the workplace'. I'm really struggling to think what things I can not do.


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## Part 2 (Mar 30, 2014)

dessiato said:


> I've spent a little time reading this thread. One thing occurs to me. Is it only you, out of this alleged clique, that has been spoken to, and, if so, why not the others?



Only me so far as I know. In fact my mate went to her manager to ask when we'd heard whispers and she told her she didn't feel there was an issue.


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## dessiato (Mar 30, 2014)

Chip Barm said:


> Only me so far as I know. In fact my mate went to her manager to ask when we'd heard whispers and she told her she didn't feel there was an issue.


This bothers me a little. When I was a manager I would have spoken to everyone in the alleged clique rather than just one person. After all, if someone is being excluded from a clique, then the whole clique should be told, not just one part of it. Is it possible that there is some other agenda to which you are not party? 

The other thing is that if other managers are not aware of an issue, why aren't they aware? Or is there something else going on?

Whatever the case, keep full notes and diary of all that happens. Hopefully I'm just paranoid, but I get an uncomfortable feeling about the whole thing.


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## Part 2 (Mar 30, 2014)

I think maybe my mates manager will address it differently, in her team meeting. 

I do have a feeling there may be another agenda. I turned down another job with the company in January and the service manager has never spoken to me about why, which I thought she might. She also made a snide comment about my mate making dinner for me and I've little doubt that there's been speculation about whether we're in a relationship from various staff.


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## FridgeMagnet (Mar 30, 2014)

This all sounds like it is being handled very unprofessionally. You can't accuse people of harassment and then not give examples of what not to do, or guidelines, or in fact do _anything_ to find a solution (it appears). And hinting at who it is makes things worse to me. Either the complainant is anonymous or they're not - "nudge nudge" is not appropriate.

I would be saying something along the lines of "given that there are no specific details here and that I and others are behaving properly in all ways that we can see, what solution to this problem would you propose?" If they're throwing this stuff about they need to take responsibility for dealing with it as well, that being their job and all. It's way beyond a friendly word.


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## Miss-Shelf (Mar 30, 2014)

In my work there's all sorts of cliques - partly because we're human and humans tend to form smaller groups from a whole group don't they?  And then there has been all sorts of stresses that people have tried to get through as best as they could including off loading on each other and hashing it over with more trusted colleagues.  

Sometimes the loyalties people have towards colleagues does affect the work of other colleagues to a minor/medium degree  but I wouldn't go to my manager and say 'miss they won't play with me'  I might go to her and ask if we can put some better systems in place for work projects so that friendships/loyalties don't play into the way we complete our work.  Who people laugh with or go to lunch with is not my business.  Same as who I go to lunch with is no one elses business. how we get our work done is all our business.


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## equationgirl (Mar 30, 2014)

Chip Barm said:


> I think maybe my mates manager will address it differently, in her team meeting.
> 
> I do have a feeling there may be another agenda. I turned down another job with the company in January and the service manager has never spoken to me about why, which I thought she might. She also made a snide comment about my mate making dinner for me and I've little doubt that there's been speculation about whether we're in a relationship from various staff.


See, to my mind the manager has no business making comments like that. So what if you mate makes dinner for you? Or if you make dinner for her? It's nobody's business but yours.

What I will say is that regardless of the facts, some people will believe what they want to believe.


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## dessiato (Mar 30, 2014)

I am reminded of the time a colleague at the same time accused me of both being gay and having an affair with a married woman. My boss had to give me an unofficial warning about my behaviour. Some people complain because they can.


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## Schmetterling (Mar 30, 2014)

dessiato said:


> I am reminded of the time a colleague at the same time accused me of both being gay and having an affair with a married woman. My boss had to give me an unofficial warning about my behaviour. Some people complain because they can.


Is there a typo??? A colleague accused you = made a complaint about your sexuality and you having an affair with a colleague ... and you received a warning????????


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## dessiato (Mar 30, 2014)

Schmetterling said:


> Is there a typo??? A colleague accused you = made a complaint about your sexuality and you having an affair with a colleague ... and you received a warning????????


That's exactly what happened. It was called inappropriate behaviour. He didn't see the ridiculousness of being accused of, allegedly, being gay and, allegedly, having an affair with a married woman. As I argued, if one is true the other was very unlikely to be true.

Some people just like to complain, even if there is little merit in the complaint. I suspect that might be the case in the OP.


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## Casually Red (Mar 30, 2014)

Chip Barm said:


> Yesterday I met with my manager who advised me that I was perceived as being part of a clique. No-one has actually named me or the others involved but the desks where myself and a number of close friends sit have been spoken of. My manager said there have been several reports of peoole feeling they wouldnt feel comfortable sitting with us and the words 'excluded' and ' intimidating' have been used. She herself said she has noticed things over about 12 months and believes that because we are friends outside work that this is spilling over into the office causing people to feel excluded.
> 
> I'm not comfortable with this. I've always been seen as someone who's approachable and the reason we support each other imo is because that's what teams do, particularly when the management support is minimal. We dont actively exclude, in fact different people come to sit on the adjacent desks quite frequently. We get on with the job and do it very well, never any complaints.
> 
> ...




sounds like jealousy . Its a female David Brent .


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## Schmetterling (Mar 30, 2014)

dessiato said:


> That's exactly what happened. It was called inappropriate behaviour. He didn't see the ridiculousness of being accused of, allegedly, being gay and, allegedly, having an affair with a married woman. As I argued, if one is true the other was very unlikely to be true.
> 
> Some people just like to complain, even if there is little merit in the complaint. I suspect that might be the case in the OP.



Couldn't you have had their arses over that?  Was any evidence offered for your alleged misconducts - and I still can't get my head around a complaint being made about someone's sexuality - and if not why were you spoken to/did you receive a warning?  Bloody hell; when was this? In the 50s?


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## dessiato (Mar 30, 2014)

Schmetterling said:


> Couldn't you have had their arses over that?  Was any evidence offered for your alleged misconducts - and I still can't get my head around a complaint being made about someone's sexuality - and if not why were you spoken to/did you receive a warning?  Bloody hell; when was this? In the 50s?


It was about ten years ago, while I was working in the civil service. I left some short time afterwards. I sometimes regret not hauling them over the coals for this though.


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## Schmetterling (Mar 30, 2014)

dessiato said:


> It was about ten years ago, while I was working in the civil service. I left some short time afterwards. I sometimes regret not hauling them over the coals for this though.


Bloody hell.  I bet you do.  I can understand that you didn't though because we choose when to fight as we can't fight everything.


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## equationgirl (Mar 30, 2014)

dessiato said:


> It was about ten years ago, while I was working in the civil service. I left some short time afterwards. I sometimes regret not hauling them over the coals for this though.


Sorry to hear about the awful time you had, dessiato


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## Part 2 (Apr 1, 2014)

Update...Met with manager today. Told her I'd lost sleep, that I haven't felt so bad about going in work for years and felt I had been accused. I said I'd spent some time trying to think who it might be but now just wanted it sorting out, that it needs nipping in the bud  right away. I said they need to name the things that are being done and that I am fully prepared to be addressed with the clique to be told what is and isn't acceptable conduct as long as it's applied across the board consistently. She suggested it may be an issue to be discussed in a whole service meeting with everyone present. Again, fine be me. 

She's made it clear that there's no suggestion any of this has been done intentionally, ie, that the clique has systematically been bullying anyone which I felt was a positive. I'm a bit annoyed though that I think what the managers have done is intentional and the consequences of dealing with things in this way should've been considered.

I'd said to her on Friday about the snide comments made to my mate about making my dinner and she said she said she'd been thinking about it over the weekend. She said she would want me to name that too. When I told her it was her manager who said it she was gobsmacked. I really reckon it's her manager whose directing this now tbh, my mate has had trouble with her for years.

I think I came out well today but my mate is really worried because her manager hasn't yet acknowledged any issue so it's all about supporting her now, I really feel for her.


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## Voley (Apr 1, 2014)

Chip Barm said:


> Update...Met with manager today. Told her I'd lost sleep, that I haven't felt so bad about going in work for years and felt I had been accused. I said I'd spent some time trying to think who it might be but now just wanted it sorting out, that it needs nipping in the bud  right away. I said they need to name the things that are being done and that I am fully prepared to be addressed with the clique to be told what is and isn't acceptable conduct as long as it's applied across the board consistently. She suggested it may be an issue to be discussed in a whole service meeting with everyone present. Again, fine be me.
> 
> She's made it clear that there's no suggestion any of this has been done intentionally, ie, that the clique has systematically been bullying anyone which I felt was a positive. I'm a bit annoyed though that I think what the managers have done is intentional and the consequences of dealing with things in this way should've been considered.
> 
> ...



You've done the right thing, mate. Ball is firmly in their court now. I'd suggest that if they just back off and nothing happens you should request another meeting in a few weeks time to confirm categorically that the issue is over. I think they've fucked up tbh.


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## equationgirl (Apr 1, 2014)

Chip Barm said:


> Update...Met with manager today. Told her I'd lost sleep, that I haven't felt so bad about going in work for years and felt I had been accused. I said I'd spent some time trying to think who it might be but now just wanted it sorting out, that it needs nipping in the bud  right away. I said they need to name the things that are being done and that I am fully prepared to be addressed with the clique to be told what is and isn't acceptable conduct as long as it's applied across the board consistently. She suggested it may be an issue to be discussed in a whole service meeting with everyone present. Again, fine be me.
> 
> She's made it clear that there's no suggestion any of this has been done intentionally, ie, that the clique has systematically been bullying anyone which I felt was a positive. I'm a bit annoyed though that I think what the managers have done is intentional and the consequences of dealing with things in this way should've been considered.
> 
> ...


If there are people at the whole service meeting who aren't part of the alleged clique then I'm not sure they should be involved. Else the meeting will be devoted to answering their questions about who is in the clique and what the accusations are.


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## Part 2 (Apr 1, 2014)

I think if they deal with it in the wsm it will be more a case of going over the bullying and harassment policy. 

I suggested they need to put it in writing what is and isn't acceptable and supposedly it's all covered by said policy anyway. 

I shall be making myself fully clued up on it before they bring it up.


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## sim667 (Apr 1, 2014)

I think you should get a little violin and play it to people whenever they seem to "skirt" round your clique.


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## equationgirl (Apr 1, 2014)

Also, your mate's manager may have already have dismissed this allegation out of hand because she sees it as outrageous and ridiculous. I know my manager does that with any issues he thinks are basically spurious, because he doesn't want to waste my time with ridiculous crap. I know he dismissed someone's fake concern about one of our team because this person was trying to make herself look better than she actually is by claiming that the team member needed extra training and was lacking in confidence (both of which were actually bullshit).


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## Part 2 (Apr 1, 2014)

I did have a bit of a moment just before leaving. I was collecting cups on my desk and thought 'oh no I'd better ask other desks if they have any'. 

Two women noticed this as not regular behaviour for me and made a joke of it....so I told them to stop bullying me. I could have a right laugh with this if they don't reign it in quick.


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## Phlegm (Apr 15, 2014)

Chip Barm said:


> Yesterday I met with my manager who advised me that I was perceived as being part of a clique. No-one has actually named me or the others involved but the desks where myself and a number of close friends sit have been spoken of. My manager said there have been several reports of peoole feeling they wouldnt feel comfortable sitting with us and the words 'excluded' and ' intimidating' have been used. She herself said she has noticed things over about 12 months and believes that because we are friends outside work that this is spilling over into the office causing people to feel excluded.
> 
> I'm not comfortable with this. I've always been seen as someone who's approachable and the reason we support each other imo is because that's what teams do, particularly when the management support is minimal. We dont actively exclude, in fact different people come to sit on the adjacent desks quite frequently. We get on with the job and do it very well, never any complaints.
> 
> ...


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## Phlegm (Apr 15, 2014)

Sounds to me like the manager is the one who has the problem.  She probably sees your 'clique' as a threat. United we stand - divided we fall.


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## Miss Caphat (Apr 15, 2014)

While I am sympathetic to your plight, op, as I just was accused of something totally bogus by a new co-worker (I think my boss knows it's bogus though) I wouldn't worry _at all. _
The thing you were accused of is really not that negative, and not something most employers would be overly critical of. It's like being accused of being popular. Your manager is not going to think less of you for it. Just be nice and welcoming to everyone and problem solved, plus extra bonus for becoming more well-liked, and gaining more allies at your office.


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## Part 2 (Apr 29, 2014)

This is still dragging on. 

I've been away on holiday and met with my manager before I went. She added something to my supervision notes about what I said but  played it down as if it'll go away and I'll forget about it. I'm fairly sure I know who the complainant is, manager has dropped too many hints and the person in question has used the same phrases in conversation with people as my manager has used in describing things. I told my manager I think she's being played by someone they can't manage and being drawn into her chaos. She said as a management team they'd agreed to address the issue individually but one of the managers has chosen to go away and do it her own way, ie, do nothing...that'll be my mate's manager then. When this all started mate went to her manager and asked if there was something she needed to discuss with her. Her manager told her there wasn't anything and has still not spoken to her. (I've know her manager for years and I can well imagine she doesn't see there being any issue whatsoever. Also she and my manager clearly don't get on.) 

Meanwhile in my absence my manager met with two other members of my team and come down on one of them quite hard as if to make a point that I'm not being singled out, (although they don't sit at the desks in question). If I were that person I'd be seeing the union as the terms bullying and intimidation are specifically written in her notes along with the threat of disciplinary but she's quite a new worker who's only with us until September so i can't see her rocking the boat. 

The other worker was apparently told that there's a problem with friendships spilling over into the office. Apparently she asked what sort of thing this meant and asked "do you mean like sharing fruit?" and was told "Yes". Me and my mate share food all the time. I need to check with the worker but if she's definitely been told that I will kick off like they won't believe, cheeky cunts.

Sorry, bit of a waffle that.


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## Voley (Apr 29, 2014)

Chip Barm said:


> The other worker was apparently told that there's a problem with friendships spilling over into the office. Apparently she asked what sort of thing this meant and asked "do you mean like sharing fruit?" and was told "Yes". Me and my mate share food all the time.


Ffs.  If that's right, they're off their fucking heads.


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## Puddy_Tat (Apr 29, 2014)

Chip Barm said:


> This is still dragging on.
> 
> I've been away on holiday and met with my manager before I went. She added something to my supervision notes about what I said but  played it down as if it'll go away and I'll forget about it. I'm fairly sure I know who the complainant is, manager has dropped too many hints and the person in question has used the same phrases in conversation with people as my manager has used in describing things. I told my manager I think she's being played by someone they can't manage and being drawn into her chaos. She said as a management team they'd agreed to address the issue individually but one of the managers has chosen to go away and do it her own way, ie, do nothing...that'll be my mate's manager then. When this all started mate went to her manager and asked if there was something she needed to discuss with her. Her manager told her there wasn't anything and has still not spoken to her. (I've know her manager for years and I can well imagine she doesn't see there being any issue whatsoever. Also she and my manager clearly don't get on.)
> 
> ...



sounds like manager is the one doing the bullying and intimidation...


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## equationgirl (Apr 29, 2014)

Chip Barm said:


> This is still dragging on.
> 
> I've been away on holiday and met with my manager before I went. She added something to my supervision notes about what I said but  played it down as if it'll go away and I'll forget about it. I'm fairly sure I know who the complainant is, manager has dropped too many hints and the person in question has used the same phrases in conversation with people as my manager has used in describing things. I told my manager I think she's being played by someone they can't manage and being drawn into her chaos. She said as a management team they'd agreed to address the issue individually but one of the managers has chosen to go away and do it her own way, ie, do nothing...that'll be my mate's manager then. When this all started mate went to her manager and asked if there was something she needed to discuss with her. Her manager told her there wasn't anything and has still not spoken to her. (I've know her manager for years and I can well imagine she doesn't see there being any issue whatsoever. Also she and my manager clearly don't get on.)
> 
> ...


It does sound like someone's playing silly buggers. Your manager should really have been a bit more discreet and not repeated things parrot-fashion if phrases are that obviously identifiable though. She also should be treating all the team equally.

And so fucking what if people share a bit of food? Hardly the crime of the century.


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## sim667 (Apr 29, 2014)

Take in a massive fruit salad with paper bowls and plastic spoons tomorrow for people to help themselves.


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## Part 2 (Apr 29, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> And so fucking what if people share a bit of food? Hardly the crime of the century.



Exactly. If she's said anything about it she'll regret it. Until January my mate and another were doing weight watchers and cooking for each other every day. Nothing was ever said. 

If she really has said anything now that it's me it'll confirm what I think that it's the service manager or her manager who's also behind this. It was the service manager who made a comment to my mate about cooking for me and my mate has long believed she's got it in for her, I really can imagine there's been gossip about whether we're in a relationship.


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## equationgirl (Apr 29, 2014)

Chip Barm said:


> Exactly. If she's said anything about it she'll regret it. Until January my mate and another were doing weight watchers and cooking for each other every day. Nothing was ever said.
> 
> If she really has said anything now that it's me it'll confirm what I think that it's the service manager or her manager who's also behind this. It was the service manager who made a comment to my mate about cooking for me and my mate has long believed she's got it in for her, I really can imagine there's been gossip about whether we're in a relationship.


God I hate that 'oh you two are doing something together therefore you MUST be in a relationship' bullshit. I was stood talking to my manager outside in the carpark the other day and someone who should have known better said 'careful, there'll be a rumour about you two'. Considering he's married and two young children quite apart from being the guy I sit next to for 37 hours a week, I found it a bit distasteful to say the least.


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## Part 2 (Apr 29, 2014)

sim667 said:


> Take in a massive fruit salad with paper bowls and plastic spoons tomorrow for people to help themselves.



Thankfully I'm on the sick for the time being. When I return it'll be with big cakes from Costco. In fact I might even send some in while I'm off.


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## RedDragon (Apr 29, 2014)

When the management aren't tied-up with monitoring fruit sharing, does any work get done?


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## Part 2 (Apr 29, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> God I hate that 'oh you two are doing something together therefore you MUST be in a relationship' bullshit.



I've laid it on very thick with my manager how abhorrent I find any such suggestion. I've been in a relationship for 25 years and my mate is 17 years my younger, I'm like her dad. It's very distasteful to say the least. On a night out a few years back someone asked her if we were having an affair and it was really upsetting for her without even thinking of the potential effects on my own family.


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## Part 2 (Apr 29, 2014)

RedDragon said:


> When the management aren't tied-up with monitoring fruit sharing, does any work get done?



By me and my clique, yeah.


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## Supine (Apr 29, 2014)

I'd suggest playing it cool. Sounds like you guys are getting in trouble for nothing. It'll blow over and you can only make it worse if you kick off.

Don't stop sharing fruit as any good manager should acknowledge that nutrition is a good thing for a work force


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## Miss-Shelf (Apr 29, 2014)

omg I gave a colleague a banana yesterday in front of the whole team

and before that I wandered through the office depositing mini creme eggs but I ran out before I got to two people at the end of the office

yesterday I offered two students to share one of my cakes and then another student came in and there wasn't any more cake to share

today I gave one of my colleagues three packets of biscuits I salvaged from a meeting but I didn't ask anyone else

and then a colleague asked if I was eating a doughnut but I was eating a pasty - maybe she thinks I'm saving my doughnuts for colleagues I prefer 

I think I need to book a meeting with HR and turn myself in as a food mono clique 

sorry Chip Barm  I am very sympathetic about your situation because it sounds like a load of made up projection but because its going on you have to deal with it in case it turns into a more serious accusation - what a waste of time and work energy - hope you can get through it


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## equationgirl (Apr 29, 2014)

Miss-Shelf you are a food sharing clique just waiting to happen


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## equationgirl (Apr 29, 2014)

Keep a work diary Chip Barm - if this is part of a deluded campaign by the manager then a record of the incidents may be taken as a pattern of harassment by HR.


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## Voley (Apr 29, 2014)

On hot days our boss has been known to distribute a box of Magnums to all and sundry. 

I WILL NOT STAND FOR THIS VICTIMISATION ANY LONGER!


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## equationgirl (Apr 29, 2014)

My boss bought back bacon-flavoured chocolate from a US business trip last year. We wished he hadn't, it was rather vile.


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## DaveCinzano (Apr 30, 2014)

Voley said:


> On hot days our boss has been known to distribute a box of Magnums to all and sundry.


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## Voley (May 1, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> View attachment 53092


You get to ask yourself one little question. Shall I have chocolate or shall I have almond? Well? Will ya, punk?


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## Greebo (May 1, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> My boss bought back bacon-flavoured chocolate from a US business trip last year. We wished he hadn't, it was rather vile.


That's a whole new level of cruel and unusual punishment.


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## equationgirl (May 1, 2014)

Greebo said:


> That's a whole new level of cruel and unusual punishment.


It was odd stuff. It was made with unsmoked bacon, smoked salt and milk chocolate, and although the initial taste was ok there was an extremely vile and long-lingering aftertaste. Two of us ended up eating a bag of skittles to take the taste away, and I'm really not a skittles fan (desperate times and all that).


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## Part 2 (May 9, 2014)

Right. Forget the fruit, something about treats was said but that's by the by.

I've come to the realisation that my issue is with how the clique accusations have been dealt with. We have 3 team managers and they've all approached the situation differently despite my managers insistence that they were given management instruction to address it as she has, particularly in identifying my desk. My mates manager told her it was a general thing and there was no mention of our desk.

In my supervision notes my manager hasn't specified our desks, rather she has referred to downstairs. She has also failed to record a statement she made about myself and 4 others who as a group of friends 'give off an aura'. She now denies using this phrase but I'm going to ask her to record the names on my notes aswell.

If she won't amend my notes I'll tell her I need to take it further. If she does I've got it in writing and can start grievance procedures in which case the union will ask for their management meeting minutes to see if she's gone with the instruction or if she's got her own agenda. I've also learnt she has form for altering notes and was taken to formal grievance over it. I discovered that part of the section referring to this issue was written before we had even met, most likely a c+p that's used for the whole team.

Basically I don't think I've anything to lose now bringing the matter to a head and if I do nothing I'm a mug. In a bit of a twist one of the other team managers is leaving  and I'm being encouraged to go for the acting up job. If I do end up sat in managers meeting I think it'll be a good statement to kick off with.

If anyone can see any problems with my plan I'd really appreciate any feedback. Cheers for all the support (and fun) so far.


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## equationgirl (May 9, 2014)

Chip Barm said:


> Right. Forget the fruit, something about treats was said but that's by the by.
> 
> I've come to the realisation that my issue is with how the clique accusations have been dealt with. We have 3 team managers and they've all approached the situation differently despite my managers insistence that they were given management instruction to address it as she has, particularly in identifying my desk. My mates manager told her it was a general thing and there was no mention of our desk.
> 
> ...


The only potential downside I can see is that if you raise it now it might work against you for the acting manager post. However, if your management prefer strong decisive leaders that aren't afraid to follow policy when required, it might actually work FOR you.

Either way, her handling of the notes is not correct and if she has form for it the union may be waiting for the last bit of evidence to put the nails in her coffin.


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## Part 2 (May 9, 2014)

The team leaders role is a mugs job in our service anyway, if I don't get it it's no biggy tbh. It would be good experience for 3 months but I wouldn't want it full time.


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## Pickman's model (May 9, 2014)

Chip Barm said:


> The team leaders role is a mugs job in our service anyway, if I don't get it it's no biggy tbh. It would be good experience for 3 months but I wouldn't want it full time.


a nice place to visit but i wouldn't want to live there


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## Part 2 (May 12, 2014)

Met today to ask her to change the things on my notes as requested. 

She got *really* defensive and was obviously pissed off, I've definitely hit a nerve. She didn't want to add specifics and kept on about how we've met enough times now and I haven't brought this up etc etc. Next minute she was saying 'we've never had a problem' as if I'm supposed to feel guilty for upsetting her. She mentioned grievance and then mediation and said  she will have to see the service manager. She asked me what outcome I want from this and I said I couldn't answer at the moment; I just want these amendments making to reflect accurately the things which we've discussed. She wanted to keep going over old ground so I said we weren't going to get anywhere and left her with the three things I want changing.

It's proper bizzare for me to force a confrontation like this tbh but if anything I feel more confident now. The ball is rolling and that hopefully means an end to this is coming.


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## Voley (May 12, 2014)

I think you're in the right, mate. If a manager's got a problem with you, the very least they can do is spell out exactly what the problem is and what they expect you to do to rectify it. Wishy-washy drivel like 'giving off an aura' just won't wash. You need to be told exactly what it is you're supposed to have done. If she's getting defensive i expect it's because she realises she's fucked up/approached it differently to the other managers/realises you have a right to be treated fairly.

I'm not one for confrontation either but I'd be inclined to stick with this one, too. Good luck with it.


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## equationgirl (May 12, 2014)

Chip Barm said:


> Met today to ask her to change the things on my notes as requested.
> 
> She got *really* defensive and was obviously pissed off, I've definitely hit a nerve. She didn't want to add specifics and kept on about how we've met enough times now and I haven't brought this up etc etc. Next minute she was saying 'we've never had a problem' as if I'm supposed to feel guilty for upsetting her. She mentioned grievance and then mediation and said  she will have to see the service manager. She asked me what outcome I want from this and I said I couldn't answer at the moment; I just want these amendments making to reflect accurately the things which we've discussed. She wanted to keep going over old ground so I said we weren't going to get anywhere and left her with the three things I want changing.
> 
> It's proper bizzare for me to force a confrontation like this tbh but if anything I feel more confident now. The ball is rolling and that hopefully means an end to this is coming.





Voley said:


> I think you're in the right, mate. If a manager's got a problem with you, the very least they can do is spell out exactly what the problem is and what they expect you to do to rectify it. Wishy-washy drivel like 'giving off an aura' just won't wash. You need to be told exactly what it is you're supposed to have done. If she's getting defensive i expect it's because she realises she's fucked up/approached it differently to the other managers/realises you have a right to be treated fairly.
> 
> I'm not one for confrontation either but I'd be inclined to stick with this one, too. Good luck with it.


Pretty much what Voley says really. If your manager receives a complaint but cannot give you details about what the issue is, then my advice is that the issue is not a valid one. Even more so if she got all passive-aggressive on you and tried to push it back onto you - in my opinion that sounds and over-the-top reaction for a simple request to get some notes changed.

A decent manager will ask you for your side of any matter before making a decision on a potential way forward, and not take someone's word for what happened without talking to you.


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## Part 2 (Jun 9, 2014)

I feel I owe an update. You've all been really helpful with this. 

It was all settled amicably. I got a written apology, no need to take it further than that I don't think. Bit more to it but I'll leave it at that.

Also i got the acting up job. Feel like I can sit with the rest of them with the knowledge I won't be pushed about.


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## pogo 10 (Jun 9, 2014)

Chip Barm said:


> Yesterday I met with my manager who advised me that I was perceived as being part of a clique. No-one has actually named me or the others involved but the desks where myself and a number of close friends sit have been spoken of. My manager said there have been several reports of peoole feeling they wouldnt feel comfortable sitting with us and the words 'excluded' and ' intimidating' have been used. She herself said she has noticed things over about 12 months and believes that because we are friends outside work that this is spilling over into the office causing people to feel excluded.
> 
> I'm not comfortable with this. I've always been seen as someone who's approachable and the reason we support each other imo is because that's what teams do, particularly when the management support is minimal. We dont actively exclude, in fact different people come to sit on the adjacent desks quite frequently. We get on with the job and do it very well, never any complaints.
> 
> ...


Bunch of dicks, sounds like they want you all to be robots. Got sacked for talking once, ffs.


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## Mr Moose (Jun 9, 2014)

Excellent. What favours can you now bestow upon your clique? Whoops...


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## Part 2 (Jan 28, 2015)

So fuck if it isn't starting again.

The office politics are on fire. I've been in the acting up manager role for 7 months. One worker who didn't get the job has really been a prick. Rather stupidly they left him on the team to be managed by me. He's always looked busy but I quickly sussed he's not been managed and does very little. Anyway cut a long story short after canvassing a number of staff he could get on board,he wrote an email to my manager clearly trying to put me in the shit about something but everyone was fully behind me and I'd followed procedure. His email was shared only with the management team and after getting it my new manager sent an email out to the whole service advising that his complaints were being acknowledged.

Workers read this and 3 asked 'what email?' and raised issues with their own managers, wanting to distance themselves from him. My old manager saw who they were. 2 are my friends. Once again she's made a massive assumption and got the idea that I've shared the email that was meant only for the management team and I'm certain has said this to my new manager. Thought she'd have learnt but seems not.


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## equationgirl (Jan 28, 2015)

Chip Barm said:


> So fuck if it isn't starting again.
> 
> The office politics are on fire. I've been in the acting up manager role for 7 months. One worker who didn't get the job has really been a prick. Rather stupidly they left him on the team to be managed by me. He's always looked busy but I quickly sussed he's not been managed and does very little. Anyway cut a long story short after canvassing a number of staff he could get on board,he wrote an email to my manager clearly trying to put me in the shit about something but everyone was fully behind me and I'd followed procedure. His email was shared only with the management team and after getting it my new manager sent an email out to the whole service advising that his complaints were being acknowledged.
> 
> Workers read this and 3 asked 'what email?' and raised issues with their own managers, wanting to distance themselves from him. My old manager saw who they were. 2 are my friends. Once again she's made a massive assumption and got the idea that I've shared the email that was meant only for the management team and I'm certain has said this to my new manager. Thought she'd have learnt but seems not.


You would have thought that she would learn about jumping to conclusions on only part of the story last time.

Document your side of events clearly and concisely and make it clear this is another groundless complaint.

In a similar situation defending my actions of six months ago. Everything was documented so I'm not that worried but it leaves a nasty taste in the mouth.


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## bmd (Jan 29, 2015)

It's great to hear you have some support there. I will just remind you that you are amazing at that job, a truly lovely person and... what the fuck is wrong with these people? Seriously.


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## Part 2 (Jan 29, 2015)

I'm confident we will beat this again mate. These are just tests. And as we say...what doesn't kil us..


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## Puddy_Tat (Jan 29, 2015)

Chip Barm said:


> I'm confident we will beat this again mate. These are just tests. And as we say...what doesn't kil us..



... makes us stranger


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## equationgirl (Jan 29, 2015)

Chip Barm said:


> I'm confident we will beat this again mate. These are just tests. And as we say...what doesn't kil us..


drives us postal?????


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## Bob_the_lost (Jan 29, 2015)

equationgirl said:


> drives us postal?????


Leaves us maimed, bitter and twisted?


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