# South London mob attack cops after 15yr old told to pick up litter



## editor (Jul 18, 2008)

Imagine the cheek of it! Being asked to pick up your own shit! They wos asking for it man.



> Two police officers were attacked by a mob in south London when they asked a 15-year-old girl to pick up some litter she dropped.
> 
> Metropolitan Police said one of the officers suffered injuries including a bite wound in the attack in North End in Croydon, on Wednesday afternoon.
> 
> ...


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## pk (Jul 18, 2008)

Typical Croydon chav scum at their best. 

If 30 people put the boot in then how come only two were charged?

Shame it wasn't a fight with these guys...


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## zenie (Jul 18, 2008)

On the bus yesterday morning, driver tells a teenage schoolgirl to get off as she didn't have an oyster to touch in with,. Girl kicks off starts shouting at the driver that she's gonna slap his face and all that. Fuck being a bus driver when that's the shit you get for doing your job 

Kids these days, no respect!!


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## Badgers (Jul 18, 2008)

You could make it up


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## zoltan (Jul 18, 2008)

"Two men, aged 34 and 38 and both from South Norwood, were held on Thursday morning on suspicion of assault and violent disorder"

 a bit fuckin poor for people of this age


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## bluestreak (Jul 18, 2008)

*mob attacks police officers over litter?*

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/london/7513416.stm

over litter?  i wonder if up to 30 people were really so incensed that a girl was asked to pick up litter that they laid into some coppers, or if there is more to it than that.  perhaps one should ask why it is that in a large london satellite town antipathy towards the police is so great that this sort of thing happens?  heavy-handed policing?  social alienation?  something in the water?


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## jæd (Jul 18, 2008)

editor said:


> Imagine the cheek of it! Being asked to pick up your own shit! They wos asking for it man.






			
				News said:
			
		

> A girl who was arrested on suspicion of assault has been released on bail.



Translation: The girl was ticked off and told not to do it again. 

No wonder there's nowt regard for others nowdays. She should've been locked in the cells for a day or so at the least to cool off.  

Awaits arrival of liberal brigade to tell me how that would be a police-state if we treated criminals like criminals...


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## editor (Jul 18, 2008)

Disrespectin' my right to litter the streets with me fast food carton innit?


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## pk (Jul 18, 2008)

Chav scum.


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## bluestreak (Jul 18, 2008)

we're already living in a police state.  it's just in disguise as a liberal paradise.

or is it the other way round.  i can never remember.  either way, no-one's happy.

i think the punishment for talking back to cops should be a day in the stocks, and the punishment for litter dropping should be four years litter picking.  and we should remove the need for evidence, so that the cops don't need to waster their time proving it.


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## editor (Jul 18, 2008)

jæd said:


> Translation: The girl was ticked off and told not to do it again.
> 
> No wonder there's nowt regard for others nowdays. She should've been locked in the cells for a day or so at the least to cool off.
> 
> Awaits arrival of liberal brigade to tell me how that would be a police-state...


Maybe her part in it was just dropping the litter and giving out a bit of teenage petulance, but all the subsequent aggro came from the older fuckwits?


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## bluestreak (Jul 18, 2008)

what are the causes of chav scum, pk?  from whence are they spawned?


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## d.a.s.h (Jul 18, 2008)

> Metropolitan Police said one of the officers suffered injuries including a bite wound



Kids really should have a proper breakfast before leaving the house.


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## likesfish (Jul 18, 2008)

take off and nuke them from orbit bit of extra radiation might help them evolve


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## bouncer_the_dog (Jul 18, 2008)

the welfare state?


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## FridgeMagnet (Jul 18, 2008)

This is bizarre. There must be more to it than is being described here.


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## Gavin Bl (Jul 18, 2008)

Croydon.

You've gotta love it (well someone's got to, as long as its not me)


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## Mr Moose (Jul 18, 2008)

Like in all these reports you'd want to know a bit more. 

Even in Croydon mobs don't generally attack the plod at the slightest provocation.

So my thoughts would be was this rough and disrespectful from the PC's? - in which case they might have provoked it themselves.

If not its totally out of order and you'd have no sympathy for mouthy trouble making gurls and older eejits.


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## Darios (Jul 18, 2008)

> Two men, aged 34 and 38 and both from South Norwood, were held on Thursday morning on suspicion of assault and violent disorder.



For some reason this makes it seem even sadder to me. It reminds me when there was a series of arrests up here in the football firms; the average age was 35.


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## jæd (Jul 18, 2008)

editor said:


> Maybe her part in it was just dropping the litter and giving out a bit of teenage petulance, but all the subsequent aggro came from the older fuckwits?



I should find it astounding that 30 fuckwits would back up a kid against the police. But somehow I don't...


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## pk (Jul 18, 2008)

bluestreak said:


> what are the causes of chav scum, pk?  from whence are they spawned?



They appeared overnight in winter 1996 wearing Kappa tracksuits.

I have no idea what causes them to breed, however. Stella Artois would be my guess.

Let's face it, the gene pool could use a little chlorine. Especially in Croydon.


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## jæd (Jul 18, 2008)

Mr Moose said:


> So my thoughts would be was this rough and *disrespectful* from the PC's? - in which case they might have provoked it themselves.



I wish people wouldn't use this word. Means totally fuck-all unless you're in a Hollywood wank-fantasy...


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## Melinda (Jul 18, 2008)

Children who are raised not to respect 'No, you cant do that.' 

Fucked up ideas of shame and respect. That girl should be made to sweep the entire fucking street every Saturday morning for 3 months.  

She needs to be taught whatever manners that her parents/ guardian/ school failed to teach her.


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## Badgers (Jul 18, 2008)

FridgeMagnet said:


> This is bizarre. There must be more to it than is being described here.


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## bouncer_the_dog (Jul 18, 2008)

Thats the idea Bluestreak!!


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## Mr Moose (Jul 18, 2008)

jæd said:


> I wish people wouldn't use this word. Means totally fuck-all unless you're in a Hollywood wank-fantasy...



Er...its not actually a made up word though..


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## Melinda (Jul 18, 2008)

Mr Moose said:


> So my thoughts would be was this rough and disrespectful from the PC's? - in which case they might have provoked it themselves.


Asked to pick up the littter, she reportedly picked it up and threw it back down again. 

Even if the police had been arsey- she needs some f-ing manners.


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## Dan U (Jul 18, 2008)

living in Croydon and seeing *some* of the kids acting in a completely feral way this is no great surprise to be honest.

having said that i've also seen some of the police treat them like utter shit as well.


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## Dravinian (Jul 18, 2008)




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## pk (Jul 18, 2008)

Melinda said:


> Asked to pick up the littter, she reportedly picked it up and threw it back down again.
> 
> Even if the police had been arsey- she needs some f-ing manners.



The police are always arsey, it's their job. And most of them are arseholes anyway.

But this stupid chav kid thought she'd be clever and what would have been a simple matter turns into a "o no dont diss mi!" screaming and petulant foot-stamping exercise and 30 similarly inbred fuckwits pile in thinking she was getting attacked.

Welcome to Croydon.


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## pk (Jul 18, 2008)

Dan U said:


> i've also seen some of the police treat them like utter shit as well.



Because by and large, they are utter shit and known to the cops as such.


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## bluestreak (Jul 18, 2008)

*bangs head on desk*


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## Crispy (Jul 18, 2008)

Threads merged


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## dylanredefined (Jul 18, 2008)

Dan U said:


> living in Croydon and seeing *some* of the kids acting in a completely feral way this is no great surprise to be honest.
> 
> having said that i've also seen some of the police treat them like utter shit as well.



   How long do you have to deal with people acting like that till you feel like
giving some back ?


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## TitanSound (Jul 18, 2008)

dylanredefined said:


> till you feel like
> giving some back ?


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## Dan U (Jul 18, 2008)

dylanredefined said:


> How long do you have to deal with people acting like that till you feel like
> giving some back ?



well i am sure that comes in to play.

in fact i know it does from talking to my friend who is dibble.

however we do expect standards from them but they are only human.


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## nick h. (Jul 18, 2008)

FFS, half of these posts look like they'e been copied from readers' comments at the Daily Hate.  Any of you who live in Brixton ought to know what bullies the police here can be.  You should be able to imagine any number of scenarios that might cause 30 people to riot over what may appear at first to be a trivial issue. 

You're all joking, aren't you?


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## bluestreak (Jul 18, 2008)

nick h. said:


> FFS, half of these posts look like they'e been copied from readers' comments at the Daily Hate. Any of you who live in Brixton ought to know what bullies the police here can be. You should be able to imagine any number of scenarios that might cause 30 people to riot over what may appear at first to be a trivial issue.
> 
> You're all joking, aren't you?


 

Sadly most of them aren't.


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## pk (Jul 18, 2008)

nick h. said:


> FFS, half of these posts look like they'e been copied from readers' comments at the Daily Hate.  Any of you who live in Brixton ought to know what bullies the police here can be.  You should be able to imagine any number of scenarios that might cause 30 people to riot over what may appear at first to be a trivial issue.
> 
> You're all joking, aren't you?



But in the same sense - anyone who has lived in Croydon ought to know what fucking trash the chavs who live there can be.

And don't start on that whole underclass crap - it's not a class issue, no matter what the fuckwit Fabians say.

The chav scum have a completely different moral code to regular people, chav lads wouldn't think twice about punching a girl in the face, for example.



> 'Genuine social phenomenon'
> 
> Tony Thorne, a language consultant for Kings College London, said people who were called chavs actually used the word themselves.
> 
> ...



http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7509968.stm


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## FridgeMagnet (Jul 18, 2008)

nick h. said:


> FFS, half of these posts look like they'e been copied from readers' comments at the Daily Hate.  Any of you who live in Brixton ought to know what bullies the police here can be.  You should be able to imagine any number of scenarios that might cause 30 people to riot over what may appear at first to be a trivial issue.



Yah. Even if it's not that, there must be _something_ going on, you don't just get 30 people beating up a pair of coppers for no reason.

I notice that on the radio though it's already being labelled as "police officers attacked by teenagers", despite the fact that the two people mentioned as having been arrested were in their 30s. So we can expect more shite about feral teens etc then.


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## pk (Jul 18, 2008)

FridgeMagnet said:


> So we can expect more shite about feral teens etc then.



If it's Croydon it's probably not shite.


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## Nougat (Jul 18, 2008)

zenie said:


> On the bus yesterday morning, driver tells a *teenage schoolgirl* to get off as she didn't have an oyster to touch in with,. Girl kicks off starts shouting at the driver that she's gonna slap his face and all that. Fuck being a bus driver when that's the shit you get for doing your job
> 
> Kids these days, no respect!!



Assuming this was in London, you, I and the bus driver know that she is entitled to free bus travel so what is the big deal? Yes, an inspector could get on and ask all passengers to present their pass but as she is evidently in SCHOOL UNIFORM & of SCHOOL AGE & on her way to SCHOOL, I am sure the driver could have been a bit more understanding of her plight. She could be waiting for her form to be processed or left it on the dining table!

Haven't you ever left home without your travelcard 

This is why whenever I witness this I pay the pittance required to let the young person continue on their journey. How quick we forget that we were young once.

Adults these days. No empathy .


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## Structaural (Jul 18, 2008)

bouncer_the_dog said:


> Thats the idea Bluestreak!!


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## Dravinian (Jul 18, 2008)

London and the South East?

As if a gang of 30 people attacking coppers isn't a story that will interest everyone in the country?


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## Melinda (Jul 18, 2008)

woodyrocks said:


> Assuming this was in London, you, I and the bus driver know that she is entitled to free bus travel so what is the big deal? Yes, an inspector could get on and ask all passengers to present their pass but as she is evidently in SCHOOL UNIFORM & of SCHOOL AGE & on her way to SCHOOL, I am sure the driver could have been a bit more understanding of her plight. She could be waiting for her form to be processed or left it on the dining table!
> 
> Haven't you ever left home without your travelcard
> 
> ...


Are you actually defending the behaviour described? Oyster or not/ school unifrom or not, why should she threaten to slap the driver? Is that ok by you? 

Its not ok for this girl to resolve issues by threatening people. It's wrong.


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## gnoriac (Jul 18, 2008)

woodyrocks said:


> Adults these days. No empathy .



Bet you're not a bus driver.


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## Leafster (Jul 18, 2008)

woodyrocks said:


> Assuming this was in London, you, I and the bus driver know that she is entitled to free bus travel so what is the big deal? Yes, an inspector could get on and ask all passengers to present their pass but as she is evidently in SCHOOL UNIFORM & of SCHOOL AGE & on her way to SCHOOL, I am sure the driver could have been a bit more understanding of her plight. She could be waiting for her form to be processed or left it on the dining table!
> 
> Haven't you ever left home without your travelcard
> 
> ...


It is possible that she had her free Oystercard revoked for some reason so the bus driver was only doing his job. As Melinda said, whatever the reasons she was asked to leave the bus, it doesn't excuse her threatening behaviour.


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## London_Calling (Jul 18, 2008)

woodyrocks said:


> Haven't you ever left home without your travelcard


She wouldn't have forgotten her phone, or her mp3 player, or anything else she wanted. Generally, someone who would respond by saying she'll slap you in the face is already looking for opportunities for confrontation. No different with droppping litter in front of police, and then dropping it a second time.


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## jæd (Jul 18, 2008)

Mr Moose said:


> Er...its not actually a made up word though..



No, but its basically bollocks and anyone who uses it should be given a 5 year jail term for being stupid enough to think I give a shit about some scruffy teenager who hasn't had their first set of spots, let alone a fuck.

It also implies some kind of unspoken honour system that doesn't exist outside said Hollywood wank-fantasy...


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## jæd (Jul 18, 2008)

bluestreak said:


> Sadly most of them aren't.



Some of us live in the real world and not some nice little dream-park...


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## onenameshelley (Jul 18, 2008)

zenie said:


> On the bus yesterday morning, driver tells a teenage schoolgirl to get off as she didn't have an oyster to touch in with,. Girl kicks off starts shouting at the driver that she's gonna slap his face and all that. Fuck being a bus driver when that's the shit you get for doing your job
> 
> /QUOTE]
> 
> ...


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## editor (Jul 18, 2008)

Dravinian said:


> London and the South East?
> 
> As if a gang of 30 people attacking coppers isn't a story that will interest everyone in the country?


So how does having a London story in the London forum stop anyone else "in the country" reading it?


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## London_Calling (Jul 18, 2008)

There you go again Ed with those stupid diversions.


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## bluestreak (Jul 18, 2008)

jæd said:


> Some of us live in the real world and not some nice little dream-park...


 

What is it that makes your world more real than mine, exactly?

In list form, if you could.  I'd like to know what I'm missing out on.


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## Morphius69 (Jul 18, 2008)

pk said:


> Chav scum.



middle-class twat


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## zoltan (Jul 18, 2008)

bluestreak said:


> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/london/7513416.stm
> 
> over litter?  i wonder if up to 30 people were really so incensed that a girl was asked to pick up litter that they laid into some coppers, or if there is more to it than that.  perhaps one should ask why it is that in a large london satellite town antipathy towards the police is so great that this sort of thing happens?  heavy-handed policing?  social alienation?  something in the water?




there will be a bit more I would have thought - tho Im not familair with the area that much

Maybe / likely  the coppers were heavy handed - mos of them are twats anyway,. but at the age of 30+, you would think a bit of level headedness would come into it - getting arrested over some youth dumping her shite on the street - It does show a rubbish level of common sense amongest the nicked - its not exactly storming the Winter Palace in terms of political activism

respect for the coppers ? I cant ever go for that Im afraid , but I have a beef with people who dump their shite all over the place with no consieration for their environment they/we have to live in

Um


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## chainsaw cat (Jul 18, 2008)

jæd said:


> Translation: *The girl was ticked off and told not to do it again. *
> No wonder there's nowt regard for others nowdays. She should've been locked in the cells for a day or so at the least to cool off.
> 
> Awaits arrival of liberal brigade to tell me how that would be a police-state if we treated criminals like criminals...



No, you get bail pending possible charges.


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## pk (Jul 18, 2008)

Morphius69 said:


> middle-class twat



LOL!


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## Callie (Jul 18, 2008)

Croydon is terrible, I don't think I have ever been anywhere else where you see so much violence just walking around in your everyday life, its just constant.

The people here are just rude, obnoxious, everyone is looking for a fight all the time and they kick off at the slightest little thing. You basically can't walk down the street with out someone starting. That never happens anywhere else in the UK ever. I just don't understand it. Everywhere else is friendly, kittens playing in the street and everyone says hello to each other and asks how your family is, under a shining sun with rainbows in the sky.


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## untethered (Jul 18, 2008)

We really have reached rock bottom, at least in Croydon.

We need to have the kind of society where no-one would ever dream of dropping litter. Where if someone accidentally dropped some, someone else would immediately and without a second thought pick it up and hand it back to them, to the embarrassed thanks and apologies of the recipient.

A society where people genuinely fear the consequences of littering might be a useful intermediate step on the way.


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## ViolentPanda (Jul 18, 2008)

bluestreak said:


> what are the causes of chav scum, pk?  from whence are they spawned?



They were traumatised at an early age by witnessing an arson attack on their local boozer, innit?


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## Melinda (Jul 18, 2008)

Listening to this story on PM, with eyewitness accounts. 

The girl was told to pick up the litter, she did and droped it again in front of them. A friend of hers got aggressive and then lots of others bundled in and it all kicked off. 

Three different witnesses spoke about the crowd advancing on the policemen, who kept telling the crowd to stay back. 

When the crowd continued to advance, apparently one policeman got out his night stick and some spray (CS?) and the other got on the radio.

The two police were bruised and one was bitten.

Reinforcements were on the scene in 2 minutes - the police turned up in vans with sticks out. 

Just heard a girl say if the backup police hadnt turned up- the situation 'could have gone another way.'


Ive seen things kick off in Croydon several times before with 50-60 kids steaming through the high street fighting. This sounds another order of magnitude altogether.


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## Melinda (Jul 18, 2008)

Radio 4 coverage is fucked up. 

In depth piece with witnesses reacalling what happened, it ends with what we know, a 15 yr old girl and 2 others in their 30s being bailed. 

Headlines at 5.30pm 'A group of 30 teenagers have attacked 2 policemen.'


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## FridgeMagnet (Jul 18, 2008)

They were saying that all day - they carefully avoided mentioning the ages of the two men arrested. You can see how this is being spun....


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## agricola (Jul 18, 2008)

This does happen from time to time - its happened to me once in the West End (admittedly with drunken twats rather than chavs, and I didnt get a kicking), it even happened to a FIT team who the NF/BNP took objection to in Covent Garden (albeit the NF didnt realise there was a horde of TSG and other officers about 50 metres away  ), and I seem to recall a thread around 2002 here where it happened to a female PC in Brixton.  

I would imagine this would all be on CCTV though, North End is fairly well covered and so arrests will no doubt follow once the guilty people are recognized.


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## JHE (Jul 18, 2008)

*The colour of chavvery?*



pk said:


> Typical Croydon chav scum at their best.
> 
> If 30 people put the boot in then how come only two were charged?
> 
> Shame it wasn't a fight with these guys...





pk said:


> Chav scum.





pk said:


> They appeared overnight in winter 1996 wearing Kappa tracksuits.
> 
> I have no idea what causes them to breed, however. Stella Artois would be my guess.
> 
> Let's face it, the gene pool could use a little chlorine. Especially in Croydon.





pk said:


> The police are always arsey, it's their job. And most of them are arseholes anyway.
> 
> But this stupid chav kid thought she'd be clever and what would have been a simple matter turns into a "o no dont diss mi!" screaming and petulant foot-stamping exercise and 30 similarly inbred fuckwits pile in thinking she was getting attacked.
> 
> Welcome to Croydon.





pk said:


> But in the same sense - anyone who has lived in Croydon ought to know what fucking trash the chavs who live there can be.
> 
> And don't start on that whole underclass crap - it's not a class issue, no matter what the fuckwit Fabians say.
> 
> ...



You're quite a chavologist, PK!

'Chav' means _white plebeian youth_ or _delinquent white plebeian youth_, doesn't it?

I ask because I've just read in The Times:  "All members of the gang were described as black."

(BTW, one of the police officers was white and the other was black.)

If anyone here had assumed that the yobs were black and posted repeatedly against 'rude boys' - or rather 'rude boys and girls' - that would be thought presumptious and racist.

I think your assumption that the yobs were 'chavs' is just as unreasonable - unless of course you are going to claim with a straight face that the term 'chav' can equally refer to white, black and other people.

If you do claim that, I won't be able to disprove that's how you in particular choose to use the term, but please don't try to kid us that that is how it is generally used.


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## Melinda (Jul 18, 2008)

JHE, since you are so interested in language- why repeat the use of the word 'gang'? 

What images do you think 'gang' projects?


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## JHE (Jul 18, 2008)

Melinda said:


> JHE, since you are so interested in language- why repeat the use of the word 'gang'?
> 
> What images do you think 'gang' projects?



My only use of the word 'gang' is in the quotation from The Times.  It is perfectly obvious that the word refers to the group who attacked the police.  (I don't think there is any suggestion that the 30 people usually form any sort of pre-existing organised gang.)

Personally, I call them 'yobs' or 'thugs', but there's nothing wrong with calling them various other things.  I've nothing against the use of the word 'gang'  here - nor anything against the use of 'mob' in the thread title.  Have you?

What do you think of PK's attribution of the thuggery to 'chavs'?


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## detective-boy (Jul 18, 2008)

pk said:


> If 30 people put the boot in then how come only two were charged?


Probably a combination of (a) exaggeration (there weren't actually 30 directly involved at all); (b) minimal involvement (of those actually taking a direct role, some/many would have been guilty of no more than a bit of low-level pushing, shoving and shouting) and (c) a lack of evidence immediately available / officers immediately available to make multiple arrests (as I suspect the majority would leg it as soon as assistance turned up).

There will probably be a review of CCTV and other evidence, with a view to identifying and arresting any _main_ culprits, responsible for significant criminal offences.  There will not, however, be a massive reactive investigation to trace people who will only ever be convicted on trivial public disorder / common assault level offences - it simply is not worth the resources.

(This approach is nothing new, by the way.  It has ben thus for donkeys years - in fact, there is probably MORE chance of some more serious offenders being traced and arrested subsequently now that there was previously, not least as CCTV provides good identification evidence that did not exist then).


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## detective-boy (Jul 18, 2008)

bluestreak said:


> ...or if there is more to it than that.


Maybe ... but there is absolutely no reason that there would have to be.  _Any_ sort of challenge, no matter that there is not actually any penalty intended to it, is perceived as "disrespect" by large swathes of the population now.  They will kick off over anything (see the post about the bus - you _must_ have seen that loads of times), you see it on Police, Camera, Action type programmes all the time.


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## editor (Jul 18, 2008)

It used to be quite common to see 'insta-mobs' popping up around Brixton whenever a street arrest was going down.


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## detective-boy (Jul 18, 2008)

pk said:


> The police are always arsey, it's their job. And most of them are arseholes anyway.


No, they aren't.  No, it isn't.  And no, they're not.

There are certainly some who fail to recognise their responsibility to break the aggression cycle, no matter how provoked they are ... but there is absolutely no reason to suspect that that _must_ have happened here as the response happens regardess of the attitude of the officers.


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## pk (Jul 18, 2008)

detective-boy said:


> No, they aren't.  No, it isn't.  And no, they're not.
> 
> There are certainly some who fail to recognise their responsibility to break the aggression cycle, no matter how provoked they are ... but there is absolutely no reason to suspect that that _must_ have happened here as the response happens regardess of the attitude of the officers.



In my extensive experience of dealing with cops, in both a polite and confrontational context, is that most of them are dickheads.

As for the dickhead:nice person ratio, I'd put it at about 7 in 10. Feel sorry for the remaining 3 in 10 who are decent people, but that's how it is.


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## detective-boy (Jul 18, 2008)

onenameshelley said:


> Yup thats the sort of shit my dad had to put up with on a daily basis, being spat at and all sorts, thank fuck he moved to Dorset


Just as well he moved to Dorset, to be honest.  Clearly he was provoking these responses by the way he dealt with them, poor lickle victimised darlings.  We're better off without him.  God help Dorset ...

 ... according to some of the posters on here, anyway ...


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## detective-boy (Jul 18, 2008)

editor said:


> It used to be quite common to see 'insta-mobs' popping up around Brixton whenever a street arrest was going down.


Tell me about it ... I was at the centre of it a number of times when I was trying to arrest the fucking drug dealers the "community" kept moaning that we didn't arrest enough of ...


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## Mr Smin (Jul 18, 2008)

I read this thread in the hope that someone who was there would post. 
I'm currently picturing either lots of people laid into some cops on a very flimsy pretext, or the cops did something really provocative which the media are keeping quiet about.


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## detective-boy (Jul 18, 2008)

pk said:


> As for the dickhead:nice person ratio, I'd put it at about 7 in 10. Feel sorry for the remaining 3 in 10 who are decent people, but that's how it is.


Maybe you need to look in the mirror ...


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## JHE (Jul 18, 2008)

Mr Smin said:


> I read this thread in the hope that someone who was there would post.
> I'm currently picturing either lots of people laid into some cops on a very flimsy pretext, or the cops did something really provocative which the media are keeping quiet about.



You don't think that telling the girl to pick up the litter was provocation enough?


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## snadge (Jul 18, 2008)

emerging news seems to be that the 2 coppers in question used CS gas and batons BEFORE it kicked off


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## agricola (Jul 18, 2008)

snadge said:


> emerging news seems to be that the 2 coppers in question used CS gas and batons BEFORE it kicked off



that would probably be during the kickoff


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## Melinda (Jul 18, 2008)

JHE said:


> My only use of the word 'gang' is in the quotation from The Times.  It is perfectly obvious that the word refers to the group who attacked the police.  (I don't think there is any suggestion that the 30 people usually form any sort of pre-existing organised gang.)
> 
> Personally, I call them 'yobs' or 'thugs', but there's nothing wrong with calling them various other things.  I've nothing against the use of the word 'gang'  here - nor anything against the use of 'mob' in the thread title.  Have you?
> 
> What do you think of PK's attribution of the thuggery to 'chavs'?


Its PK innit! Force of nature. law unto himself etc etc ...  I may be wrong about that. 

Actually I didnt read it as him dissembling or attempting to mislead-  I saw it as his word for young scrotes in general- with no intention of indicating race or colour in this specific instance.  

Its not a word I would have used it myself. Its was you objecting to chav but using 'gang' that jarred with me. 

'Chav' and 'gang' are both loaded and serve as political shorthand to label and stigmatise specific groups of young people. 
Call any group of kids a 'gang' and suddenly people are nodding and they know who you’re talking about.


----------



## snadge (Jul 18, 2008)

agricola said:


> that would probably be during the kickoff



nope before according to BBC scotland.


----------



## Melinda (Jul 18, 2008)

agricola said:


> that would probably be during the kickoff



According to  eye witness on Radio4  it was to stave off the kick off/ imminent beat down.


----------



## weltweit (Jul 18, 2008)

Personally I tend not to tell people to pick up their litter ... 

I don't fancy the abuse I am undoubtedly going to get if I do ...


----------



## weltweit (Jul 18, 2008)

Would your telling someone off for dropping their litter change them into a better person? 

I don't think so. 

Is it your job to turn them into a better person?

Whose job is it?


----------



## Melinda (Jul 18, 2008)

weltweit said:


> Would your telling someone off for dropping their litter change them into a better person?
> 
> I don't think so.
> 
> ...


Do you think appeasing violent morons is the way forward then?


----------



## snadge (Jul 18, 2008)

Melinda said:


> Do you think appeasing violent morons is the way forward then?



what, the coppers, I agree, keep out of their way is what I say, keep off the radar.


----------



## JHE (Jul 18, 2008)

Melinda said:


> Actually I didnt read it as him dissembling or attempting to mislead-



No, nor did I.  I think he believed what he had simply imagined.



> ... I saw it as his word for young scrotes in general- with no intention of indicating race or colour in this specific instance.



I'd like to read his response - but, anyway, do you - or does anyone here - think 'chav' is not racially-coded?


----------



## snadge (Jul 18, 2008)

JHE said:


> I'd like to read his response - but, anyway, do you - or does anyone here - think 'chav' is not racially-coded?



No and could I ask why you do?


----------



## untethered (Jul 18, 2008)

Melinda said:


> Do you think appeasing violent morons is the way forward then?



It'd be nice for a "mob" to come to the assistance of the police once in a while.


----------



## weltweit (Jul 18, 2008)

Melinda said:


> Do you think appeasing violent morons is the way forward then?



I think it is not my job to be the litter police!

And it is not my job to make youngsters behave themselves because their parents and schools have failed to make decent young people out of them. 

First it is the job of their parents, then it is the job of their school to make them into decent young people. 

I was already busy doing my job, why should I pause and do theirs?


----------



## Melinda (Jul 18, 2008)

untethered said:


> It'd be nice for a "mob" to come to the assistance of the police once in a while.


Well it only takes one person to step up. 

During the rampage of the Glasgow rangers fans through Manchester the other month, minimal attention was given to the former squaddie who stopped the policeman in the middle of the scrum from getting a real beating.


----------



## JHE (Jul 18, 2008)

snadge said:


> No and could I ask why you do?


Because (i) every portrayal of a 'chav' I have ever seen and every person I have seen and then heard described to as a 'chav' has been white and (ii) because I  have read and been told that other people have noticed the same thing.

Can you give us any example of the use of 'chav' to refer to a non-white person?


----------



## snadge (Jul 18, 2008)

JHE said:


> Because (i) every portrayal of a 'chav' I have ever seen and every person I have seen and then heard described to as a 'chav' has been white and (ii) because I  have read and been told that other people have noticed the same thing.
> 
> Can you give us any example of the use of 'chav' to refer to a non-white person?




.


chav, how's that?

actually we call 'em charvers up here and they come in all fucking colours.


----------



## Melinda (Jul 18, 2008)

weltweit said:


> I think it is not my job to be the litter police!
> 
> And it is not my job to make youngsters behave themselves because their parents and schools have failed to make decent young people out of them.
> 
> ...


See, I couldnt live like that.  

If I see a kid fucking about doing something dangerous, I speak up. 
I got it off my mum who also intervenes. 

Takes a village innit.


----------



## untethered (Jul 18, 2008)

Melinda said:


> Well it only takes one person to step up.
> 
> During the rampage of the Glasgow rangers fans through Manchester the other month, minimal attention was given to the former squaddie who stopped the policeman in the middle of the scrum from getting a real beating.



Admirable.

I think it's Gladwell's _The Tipping Point_ that he talks about disinhibition theory. As I remember it, different people have different thresholds at which they'll "have a go" (whether in a good or bad way). So depending on the mix of people in a situation after a given provocation, it could either come to nothing or you could get a chain reaction, as easily-provoked people react and provide the context in which less easily provoked people will join in.

I don't remember him saying anything about Croydon, though.


----------



## snadge (Jul 18, 2008)

Melinda said:


> See, I couldnt live like that.
> 
> If I see a kid fucking about doing something dangerous, I speak up.
> I got it off my mum who also intervenes.
> ...



From the OP, I suppose you could class dropping litter as "dangerous"


----------



## weltweit (Jul 18, 2008)

Melinda said:


> See, I couldnt live like that.
> 
> If I see a kid fucking about doing something dangerous, I speak up.
> I got it off my mum who also intervenes.
> ...



Doing something dangerous is different. If people might get hurt then I will intervene but if they are just dropping litter then sorry but I have more important things to do.


----------



## Melinda (Jul 18, 2008)

snadge said:


> From the OP, I suppose you could class dropping litter as "dangerous"


Perhaps I should have said anti-social then. 



weltweit said:


> Doing something dangerous is different. If people might get hurt then I will intervene but if they are just dropping litter then sorry but I have more important things to do.


Nah, Litter is ugly. 

Standing at the bus stop on Crystal Palace parade, watching hoards of kids chomping their way through chicken wings and then tossing the bones on the ground or onto the embankment below when there is a bin 3 metres away is horrid.


----------



## snadge (Jul 18, 2008)

Melinda said:


> Perhaps I should have said anti-social then.




No, I wouldn't intervene, too many people have ended up in A&E through that.

Call me a coward if you want but I'll be fucked if I'll put myself in the firing line again, I've had it before you see and I know how useless the law is in this position.


----------



## Melinda (Jul 18, 2008)

snadge said:


> No, I wouldn't intervene, too many people have ended up in A&E through that.
> 
> Call me a coward if you want but I'll be fucked if I'll put myself in the firing line again, I've had it before you see and I know how useless the law is in this position.


Id never call anyone a coward- plus its different- Im a girl and rightly or wrongly (!) I think people are less threatened if I say something.  It may be different if a bloke did it.


----------



## untethered (Jul 18, 2008)

In part I do actually blame the police for the breakdown of order. Not these individual officers, of course.

We are often told that we shouldn't get involved, that if we see trouble we should call the police and let the "professionals" handle it.

The problem is that if we routinely do so, we undermine the natural authority of the community to determine in a direct and specific way how people should behave in a given situation. The law and the formal structures of the criminal justice system are necessary but essentially crude tools to moderate the worst kinds of behaviour. The absence of various traditional forms of authority has left a vacuum in which anti-social behaviour, normally below the threshold of the criminal law, has been allowed to flourish.

Now it seems to have got to the stage where all forms of authority are disregarded, even the obvious and official ones such as the law and police.

The answer, of course, isn't to extend the law down, but to extend authority back up from the community base. Reminding people of their responsibilities in an appropriate way can help to rebuild the foundations on which the whole system depends.

All that said, never forget that discretion is the better part of valour.


----------



## paolo (Jul 18, 2008)

pk said:


> In my extensive experience of dealing with cops, in both a polite and confrontational context, is that most of them are dickheads.
> 
> As for the dickhead:nice person ratio, I'd put it at about 7 in 10. Feel sorry for the remaining 3 in 10 who are decent people, but that's how it is.



My experience is much better. When I've been under suspission of something (mostly stop and searches, and one arrest) has been that about 1 out of 10 are dickheads. The rest have been polite and professional.

_(Context... I am white, reasonably literate/well spoken, and older than many of the beat coppers. That may or not have any significance - no way for me to judge that one; though I strongly suspect that the age thing helps. I seem to remember that I was quite a bit younger, the police were more arsey to me.)_


----------



## weltweit (Jul 18, 2008)

untethered said:


> In part I do actually blame the police for the breakdown of order. Not these individual officers, of course.
> 
> We are often told that we shouldn't get involved, that if we see trouble we should call the police and let the "professionals" handle it.
> 
> The problem is that if we routinely do so, we undermine the natural authority of the community to determine in a direct and specific way how people should behave in a given situation. The law and the formal structures of the criminal justice system are necessary but essentially crude tools to moderate the worst kinds of behaviour. The absence of various traditional forms of authority has left a vacuum in which anti-social behaviour, normally below the threshold of the criminal law, has been allowed to flourish.



There is a lot to be said for communities taking some responsibility for behaviour in their territories. 

I am helping someone buy a house at the moment and I can say that there is a clear and obvious measure of areas where there is social breakdown, antisocial behaviour and poor facilities. 

The measure is : house prices 

If a community takes charge of their area and makes it a better place to live, aside from the fact that it is a better place to live which should be enough, they will also feel it in their house prices. Those that own obviously.



untethered said:


> Now it seems to have got to the stage where all forms of authority are disregarded, even the obvious and official ones such as the law and police.
> 
> The answer, of course, isn't to extend the law down, but to extend authority back up from the community base. Reminding people of their responsibilities in an appropriate way can help to rebound the foundations on which the whole system depends.
> 
> All that said, never forget that discretion is the better part of valour.



There was a story recently about a place that had done just that. I forget its name unfortunately.


----------



## detective-boy (Jul 18, 2008)

agricola said:


> that would probably be during the kickoff


Indeed.  One witness was saying they were surrounded and started shouting at people to back off while one was on the radio - sounds like the standard drawn batons and brandished CS with loud "Get backs!".

Usually it has the desired effect ... sometimes (as it would appear here) it doesn't ...


----------



## detective-boy (Jul 18, 2008)

untethered said:


> It'd be nice for a "mob" to come to the assistance of the police once in a while.


It happens sometimes ... but I think significantly less than the other way round sadly ...


----------



## detective-boy (Jul 18, 2008)

untethered said:


> So depending on the mix of people in a situation after a given provocation, it could either come to nothing or you could get a chain reaction, as easily-provoked people react and provide the context in which less easily provoked people will join in.


If we all joined in and supported someone making a stand or confronting unacceptable, or at least violent, behaviour then we would win hands down - the scrotes who _think_ they own the street are in a tiny minority.  They only "own" the streets because we collectively let them.

Look at any of the numerous stories about estates being "turned round" when someone manages to get the residents to cooperate and confront the bad guys.

(In fact, we can learn something from the Croydon incident - faced with two coppers brandishing batons and CS did they go "Oh, I might get hurt, I'm not getting involved and pretend not to have noticed, stick their heads in the paper, hope the ground swallows them up ..." ... No.  They continued to advance, knowing full well that despite the weapons, two people could not overcome thirty (or however many it turns out to be ...).  If good people realised that, and acted upon it, the world could be a very different place.  They can't intimidate, persecute, injure and kill us all.  But if we allow them to divide and conquer, they can, one at a time ... )


----------



## detective-boy (Jul 18, 2008)

Melinda said:


> I think people are less threatened if I say something.  It may be different if a bloke did it.


Just as a matter of general advice ... be _very_ careful of confronting other females - they are just as likely (if not more likely) to attack you as they would attack a man.


----------



## detective-boy (Jul 18, 2008)

untethered said:


> In part I do actually blame the police for the breakdown of order.... We are often told that we shouldn't get involved, that if we see trouble we should call the police and let the "professionals" handle it.


Absolutely.

The police as an organisation are notorious for saying "leave it to us" (for the best of motives), even though the reality is that they cannot / will not deal with it even if they were somehow mysteriously able to spontaneously appear at the scene at the precise moment needed to stop something happening, witness it for themselves (and hence not need anyone as a witness) or detain the fleeing suspect.

It is organisational fuckwittery of the highest order!


----------



## snadge (Jul 18, 2008)

detective-boy said:


> (In fact, we can learn something from the Croydon incident - faced with two coppers brandishing batons and CS did they go "Oh, I might get hurt, I'm not getting involved and pretend not to have noticed, stick their heads in the paper, hope the ground swallows them up ..." ... No.  They continued to advance, knowing full well that despite the weapons, two people could not overcome thirty (or however many it turns out to be ...).  If good people realised that, and acted upon it, the world could be a very different place.  They can't intimidate, persecute, injure and kill us all.  But if we allow them to divide and conquer, they can, one at a time ... )




LOL, then get done off the law.

no chance, how many times are we told by the police " vigilante action will not be tolerated"


----------



## detective-boy (Jul 18, 2008)

paolo999 said:


> _(Context... I am white, reasonably literate/well spoken, and older than many of the beat coppers. That may or not have any significance - no way for me to judge that one; though I strongly suspect that the age thing helps. I seem to remember that I was quite a bit younger, the police were more arsey to me.)_


Did you forget to add "and I wasn't immediately in their faces, spitting and snarling and shouting abuse ..."?

Seriously, there is a massive age and authority issue running through police and community relations.  It was one of the big bits of learning from the CRR training programme that what appeared to be white (police) -v- black (youth) issues were, in fact, youth -v- authority issues with the races of the police and the youth being only part of the deal.

And, wider than that, youth -v- authority is more than just the police - they are just the most obvious representation.  The issue is easily seen in schools, in attitudes to bus drivers / park keepers / shopkeepers, etc.

The "feral youth" have a major problem dealing with any sort of authority.  I'm not saying they should be entirely passive and do what they're told, but they need to learn ways of making their views known within the bounds of acceptable behaviour.  Assertiveness skills would be a start, as would a better understanding of what makes that different from aggression.


----------



## Belushi (Jul 18, 2008)

> Assertiveness skills would be a start, as would a better understanding of what makes that different from aggression.



They can learn what Respect actually means while they're at it.


----------



## detective-boy (Jul 18, 2008)

snadge said:


> " vigilante action will not be tolerated"


Calling the police and witnessing what happens is not "vigilante action".

Pointing out the offenders when police arrive and providing a witness statement is not "vigilante action".

Lawfully using reasonable and necessary force to protect yourself or others, or to prevent serious crime is not "vigilante action".

Making a lawful "citizens" arrest, and using such force as is reasonable and necessary to do so, is not "vigilante action".

All the above are, actually, fulfilling your civic _duty_.  "Vigilante action" is taking the law into your own hands and administering your own arbitrary punishment outside the legal framework and without involving the relevant authorities.  

The police quite rightly tell us that "vigilante action" will not be tolerated.  They _advise_ against "having a go" at using lawful force out of concern that we may get hurt ... but they can't _tell_ us not to.  They _ask_ us to do the other two bits.

Even if we all only did the first two bits, surrounding the bad guys passively, making 999 calls, taking photographs, making notes, taking down car numbers, etc. it would have a massive effect on those behaving violently ... they'd feel like they were fighting in the middle of a herd of inquisitive cows ...


----------



## snadge (Jul 18, 2008)

detective-boy said:


> Calling the police and witnessing what happens is not "vigilante action".
> 
> Pointing out the offenders when police arrive and providing a witness statement is not "vigilante action".
> 
> ...



1st scenario, if the 2 coppers didn't know who was guilty at that point, why are they coppers?



Look mate I've been in the firing line of little scrotes like that getting my windows put out etc and after ringing the law and identifying them, the law accused me of drug dealing and left me to it, to my detriment, now they knew I had incvolved the police, they ramped up my attacks, the police dismissing my calls.

I found out later that  they were extremely active police informants and the coppers use to let them get away with murder.

fuck your laws.


----------



## Gavin Bl (Jul 18, 2008)

untethered said:


> The problem is that if we routinely do so, we undermine the natural authority of the community to determine in a direct and specific way how people should behave in a given situation.



This is a really important point I think - go back maybe to the 50s, and this 'community' power was overweening - but it was rolled back too far. It was right to destroy deference, but civility came down with it, and that was 'a bad thing'.


----------



## Stoat Boy (Jul 18, 2008)

Personally I am impressed that Police officers actually asked somebody to pick up their litter. Whatever you might think about the incident that followed it seems to me that many 'youth' seem happy to drop anything and everything they want. 

More of this sort of zero tolerance Policing might make a difference in the long run although that part of Croydon is getting such a terrible reputation that it cannot be long before its just walled off and the inhabitants allowed to do what they want.


----------



## detective-boy (Jul 18, 2008)

snadge said:


> I found out later that  they were extremely active police informants and the coppers use to let them get away with murder.


Yeah, happens all the time "mate" ...


----------



## JHE (Jul 18, 2008)

Stoat Boy, I think the "zero tolerance" policy (in Noo Yoik) was to stop people committing even the most trivial of offences and to prosecute culprits of even trivial offences - not to end up with Mr Plod in hospital after being bitten and kicked by an angry mob.  Even with the best will in the world and a large dash of courage, the two Plods at the centre of this little ruck are going to be more wary in Croydon and less inclined to tell people to pick up their litter.  Thuggery frightens people.


----------



## snadge (Jul 18, 2008)

detective-boy said:


> Yeah, happens all the time "mate" ...



well it did in this case, these scrotes terrorised the neighbourhood I used to live, they did this with no police intervenment at all, even though everyone around me had reported the same scrotes for other crimes

I had to move in the dead of night, packing all my expensive belongings into a mates van whilst a police car stayed with us and that was hard work, keeping the coppers there, they kept trying to fuck off for doughnuts or something, I lost my temper with them in the end and told them to stay and protect us while we were emptying the flat, ie do your job.

My mates terrorised them until they shifted after I had gone, I still get free beer when I go visit friends that still live there.


----------



## Stoat Boy (Jul 18, 2008)

JHE said:


> Stoat Boy, I think the "zero tolerance" policy (in Noo Yoik) was to stop people committing even the most trivial of offences and to prosecute culprits of even trivial offences - not to end up with Mr Plod in hospital after being bitten and kicked by an angry mob.  Even with the best will in the world and a large dash of courage, the two Plods at the centre of this little ruck are going to be more wary in Croydon and less inclined to tell people to pick up their litter.  Thuggery frightens people.




Or the local Cop shop will decide that they cannot be seen to back down over this and flood the area with Police looking for even the most minor infringement. 

I want a Police force that makes people pick up their litter. Its shit bag behaviour and needs to be stamped out. Perhaps if people know they will get pinched for dropping a crisp packet they might think twice about doing anything else.


----------



## Mr Moose (Jul 18, 2008)

jæd said:


> No, but its basically bollocks and anyone who uses it should be given a 5 year jail term for being stupid enough to think I give a shit about some scruffy teenager who hasn't had their first set of spots, let alone a fuck.
> 
> It also implies some kind of unspoken honour system that doesn't exist outside said Hollywood wank-fantasy...



Touchy aren't we?


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jul 18, 2008)

Christ, I don't. If we're going to have a police force I want one that nicks people for stealing shit from the market and local shops then selling it in the bookie's, or breaks up fights in pubs, or arrests people who beat up their partners, or cleans up after road accidents and finds drunk drivers. Fuck litter.


----------



## Stoat Boy (Jul 18, 2008)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Christ, I don't. If we're going to have a police force I want one that nicks people for stealing shit from the market and local shops then selling it in the bookie's, or breaks up fights in pubs, or arrests people who beat up their partners, or cleans up after road accidents and finds drunk drivers. Fuck litter.



Litter matters as well. But I am a fan of zero tolerance and a bit of a right wing lunatic who hates people who dont clear up their own mess. 

For example I would not hang murderers but would happily execute people who let their Dogs shit in public spaces and dont clear it up. But I do have a mild case of OCD when it comes to being tidy.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jul 18, 2008)

There are pills for that these days.


----------



## 8ball (Jul 18, 2008)

I see nothing wrong with the police telling someone to pick their litter up, nor do I see much problem with them tear-gassing the cunts that get arsey about being told to pick it up, but agree with those that say there may be more to this one than meets the eye.


----------



## snadge (Jul 18, 2008)

FridgeMagnet said:


> There are pills for that these days.




do they work?

I'll tell my neighbour about 'em, his wife is terrible for it.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jul 18, 2008)

snadge said:


> do they work?



no


----------



## snadge (Jul 18, 2008)

FridgeMagnet said:


> no



oh I see, ok, he'll be gutted, she hates me cos' my house is a constant building site.


----------



## pk (Jul 19, 2008)

LOL as if chavs are determined by the colour of their skin. Fuck off!

Seriously, start to view chavness as an attitude and one might recognise the signs in real life.

If one tears oneself away from t'internet long enough and checks out reality for a while that is...


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Jul 19, 2008)

*yawn*


----------



## JHE (Jul 19, 2008)

Yeah, right, it was black 'chavs' all along - and 'chav' is not some nasty British equivalent of 'white trash'.


----------



## JHE (Jul 19, 2008)

"Yeah!  PK thinks I may be black!"


----------



## ThorHawkDru (Jul 19, 2008)

detective-boy said:


> Yeah, happens all the time "mate" ...



Yes it does to be perfectly honest. Too often.


----------



## emanymton (Jul 19, 2008)

untethered said:


> A society where people genuinely fear the consequences of littering might be a useful intermediate step on the way.



This is a joke? Please tell me it's a joke.


----------



## emanymton (Jul 19, 2008)

Melinda said:


> Do you think appeasing violent morons is the way forward then?



Dropping litter is an act of violence?


----------



## Melinda (Jul 19, 2008)

emanymton said:


> Dropping litter is an act of violence?



I refer you to a post I made a while back. 

http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=7784541&postcount=99


----------



## Stoat Boy (Jul 19, 2008)

JHE said:


> Yeah, right, it was black 'chavs' all along - and 'chav' is not some nasty British equivalent of 'white trash'.





Is there a word for Black Chavs that is 'acceptable' ? I mean we have Chav, Pikey, White Trash and so on but that seems to be solely for us pale-faces. I know African-Americans have this 'cracker' thing going about whites but is there an equivalent ?

I suppose you do have the N word when its used by Black people in terms of the old Chris Rock rant but white people cannot use that.


----------



## zoltan (Jul 19, 2008)

what does give m some worries on this subject is that people seem to be defending ( not really on this MB ) anti social behavior, in its widest sense -I can accomodate cases of police heavy handndness and a group response to perceived Police overkill, but ( it would appear ) that someone got caught bang to rights doing something that  should not be acceptable & affects everyone else, and overreacts causing this street kerfuffle

As I mentioned earlier, being mid thirties and getting nicked for defending someone who committed a minor but shoddy bit of law breaking is a bit fuckin poor

sill everyones happy - 2 plod off sick and a few arests / possible cases for disorder in the pipleine - what a waste time and effort for everyone involved

I can see where DB is coming from on this topic


----------



## likesfish (Jul 19, 2008)

its all about respect isn't it they got dissed cause there human rights were not respected 
 bunch of potential donor organs 
 how do you teach fuckwits that you are not the centre of the universe and to survive in society some rules have to be obeyed 
  Not talking about being a serf just getting into there thick skulls nobody is dissing them if they have to wait, pick up litter,somebody bumps into them, or they get told no. 
  none of which requires the use of lethal force


----------



## Melinda (Jul 19, 2008)

Stoat Boy said:


> Is there a word for Black Chavs that is 'acceptable' ? I mean we have Chav, Pikey, White Trash and so on but that seems to be solely for us pale-faces. I know African-Americans have this 'cracker' thing going about whites but is there an equivalent ?
> 
> I suppose you do have the N word when its used by Black people in terms of the old Chris Rock rant but white people cannot use that.


Why dont you use the words you would usually use to describe the group you are concerned abut?

Or try inventing your own word, since you're so exercised about not having enough words to call black people.


----------



## snadge (Jul 19, 2008)

JHE said:


> Yeah, right, it was black 'chavs' all along - and 'chav' is not some nasty British equivalent of 'white trash'.



Are you for fucking real?

No wonder nothing gets done about the problem when people are more concerned about the terminology and the colour of the miscreants.

fool.


----------



## Groucho (Jul 19, 2008)

FridgeMagnet said:


> This is bizarre. There must be more to it than is being described here.



Yes, that's what I thought when I saw the report on the BBC. 2 cops tell a girl to pick up a bit of litter she dropped. She does then drops it again. When the cops again tell her to pick up the litter an unprovoked crowd of 30 including adults attack the cops until riot police arrive (within minutes) to batton the crowd.

None of this makes any sense taken at face value.


----------



## Groucho (Jul 19, 2008)

bluestreak said:


> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/london/7513416.stm
> 
> over litter?  i wonder if up to 30 people were really so incensed that a girl was asked to pick up litter that they laid into some coppers, or if there is more to it than that.  perhaps one should ask why it is that in a large london satellite town antipathy towards the police is so great that this sort of thing happens?  heavy-handed policing?  social alienation?  something in the water?



All the right questions, together with your later comment about where does anti-social behaviour spring from? There was a lot more of it in Victorian England than there is now. But there appears to be a sudden increase lately (either in reality or in media coverage and concern). Why?

New Labour are adopting Thatcherite talk of working for benefits (something Thatcher didn't dare actually do). Well if we are to return to Victorian values and attitudes.....how long before we get a revival of garrotting? Remember there is no such thing as society, only individuals and families...


----------



## poster342002 (Jul 19, 2008)

Gavin Bl said:


> This is a really important point I think - go back maybe to the 50s, and this 'community' power was overweening - but it was rolled back too far. It was right to destroy deference, but civility came down with it, and that was 'a bad thing'.



Sort of "baby-thrown-out-with-the-bathwater" scenario.


----------



## Stoat Boy (Jul 19, 2008)

Melinda said:


> Why dont you use the words you would usually use to describe the group you are concerned abut?
> 
> Or try inventing your own word, since you're so exercised about not having enough words to call black people.




Blash ? A mix of Black and trash ?. 

'Look at that Blash scum, attacking two plods for having the audacity to ask them not to drop litter'


----------



## detective-boy (Jul 19, 2008)

snadge said:


> ... these scrotes terrorised the neighbourhood I used to live, they did this with no police intervenment at all


There are gangs around the country that do that without any of them ever even _thinking_ of being police informants ... sadly police incompetence in these cases does not have to be due to corruption ...



> ...whilst a police car stayed with us...


You an informant too then?  If not, why the fuck did they help?  If your story is to be believed they would have tipped off their "informants" and ensured all your "expensive stuff" got nicked or wrecked in an ambush as you moved out ...


----------



## detective-boy (Jul 19, 2008)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Fuck litter.


You do not think that a uniformed police officer, seeing someone blatantly drop litter, should _not_ point it out and ask them to pick it up / report them as appropriate?  

What other crimes and anti-social behaviour do you think they should ignore?  Who draws up the list?


----------



## detective-boy (Jul 19, 2008)

ThorHawkDru said:


> Too often.


Too often can be once or twice.

It certainly _doesn't_ "happen all the time".


----------



## Badgers (Jul 19, 2008)

detective-boy said:


> What other crimes and anti-social behaviour do you think they should ignore?



Murder, but only if done in the privacy of your own home.


----------



## detective-boy (Jul 19, 2008)

Groucho said:


> None of this makes any sense taken at face value.


I suspect there was a bit in the middle, after the second dropping and before the intervention of the others which went something like:

- Girl drops litter blatantly again
- Police say "OK, you can get reported then"
- Girl responds with a load of abuse.  Maybe starts calling in friends.  Certainly starts attracting attention.
- Police say "Give us your name and address for the report/ticket or you will be arrested"
- Girl responds with more, louder abuse.  Crowd grows bigger, including friends of hers.
- Police attempt to arrest her (i.e. take hold of her arm, whatever)
- Girl pulls away / starts resisting / tries to walk off
- Friends / others intervene trying to rescue her, also abusing / threatening the officers
- Officers realise they need help and draw batons / CS and call for assistance
- Crowd over power them

Happens all day and every day.  Watch any Cop Camera Action programme and you will see _exactly_ the same scenario played out time and again.


----------



## detective-boy (Jul 19, 2008)

Badgers said:


> Murder, but only if done in the privacy of your own home.


Get it right and this is ...


----------



## emanymton (Jul 19, 2008)

detective-boy said:


> You do not think that a uniformed police officer, seeing someone blatantly drop litter, should _not_ point it out and ask them to pick it up / report them as appropriate?
> 
> What other crimes and anti-social behaviour do you think they should ignore?  Who draws up the list?



Don’t know about ignore but I would become better disposed to the police if they did something about cyclists riding on the pavement as they seem to think they have a right to. 
That really is ant-social, especially when it’s on the pavement next to a cycle path. Fucking tossers.


----------



## snadge (Jul 19, 2008)

detective-boy said:


> There are gangs around the country that do that without any of them ever even _thinking_ of being police informants ... sadly police incompetence in these cases does not have to be due to corruption ...
> 
> 
> You an informant too then?  If not, why the fuck did they help?  If your story is to be believed they would have tipped off their "informants" and ensured all your "expensive stuff" got nicked or wrecked in an ambush as you moved out ...



oh piss off will you, I demanded of the police in the car that they do their job "as I was in fear of my life" and protect me and my friends from these well known scrotes, they did but under duress.

for your information the next morning our friends car had been trashed, the place where I stayed that night.

what can't you understand?

There were witnesses who stood up to these scrotes, one got stabbed several times and the other put in hospital for 3 weeks, nothing done by the police, by then nobody was willing to stand up.

what is your problem with criticism of the police?


----------



## detective-boy (Jul 19, 2008)

snadge said:


> what is your problem with criticism of the police?


I have no problem with criticism of the police where it is justified.  If you actually read what I post you would know that.

In fact, if you actually read the post you fucking quote you will see that I comment about police incompetence in cases like the one you describe.

But when someone like you posts that the police are allowing estates to be terrorised by yobs because they are police informants you are talking bollocks and will get challenged to provide some basis for that.  Especially when you imply it is commonplace.  It isn't.  

If the police do not deal with yobs terrorising an estate it may be due to any number of reasons ... but the fact the yobs are informants is, frankly, laughable.


----------



## snadge (Jul 19, 2008)

detective-boy said:


> I have no problem with criticism of the police where it is justified.  If you actually read what I post you would know that.
> 
> In fact, if you actually read the post you fucking quote you will see that I comment about police incompetence in cases like the one you describe.
> 
> ...



I am afraid to say that these scrotes were high profile informants, well into the gangster scene and protected by a few wanky coppers.

No problems though, a few years later it all came out in the wash and there were a few demotions down at the local nick when their drug fuelled rampages got well out of control, didn't help all the people that got fucked over by them in the past though.


----------



## George & Bill (Jul 20, 2008)

pk said:


> But in the same sense - anyone who has lived in Croydon ought to know what fucking trash the chavs who live there can be.



yeah - the sort of scumbags who will get into a self-righteous rage at the slightest provocation and begin making threats of extreme violence...

<...re-checks other threads...>

do you live in croydon and own a pair of reebok classics, PK?


----------



## George & Bill (Jul 20, 2008)

Melinda said:


> Are you actually defending the behaviour described? Oyster or not/ school unifrom or not, why should she threaten to slap the driver? Is that ok by you?
> 
> Its not ok for this girl to resolve issues by threatening people. It's wrong.


----------



## George & Bill (Jul 20, 2008)

detective-boy said:


> And, wider than that, youth -v- authority is more than just the police - they are just the most obvious representation.  The issue is easily seen in schools, in attitudes to bus drivers / park keepers / shopkeepers, etc.
> 
> The "feral youth" have a major problem dealing with any sort of authority.  I'm not saying they should be entirely passive and do what they're told, but they need to learn ways of making their views known within the bounds of acceptable behaviour.  Assertiveness skills would be a start, as would a better understanding of what makes that different from aggression.



The problem is that while society overall has reviewed the nature of its respect for authority - and adjusted it from the absolute respect of past generations to one that is more conditional - there are groups on either side who have not gone with the flow. On one side, as the post I have quoted says, there are a significant number of younger people who cannot tolerate being subject to any form of authority. _But_, there are also people _in_ traditional positions of authority - whether parents or police officers - who refuse to accept that their authority is not of the same variety as in the past. I have never been arrested, but have once or twice been stopped by the police, and each time I've been surprised at the way even young officers react to a lively debate - they often imply that 'answering back' is somehow tantamount to a criminal offence. Likewise there are many parents who still seem to think they can command their kids to do exactly what they think they should do, however arbitrary the demand might be. 

The sort of social unrest discussed in this thread always comes about when society is trying to move on and become more socially equitable and less stratified - some try to resist and stick to their old, outdated ways, and some try to rush ahead to some kind of free-for-all dystopia. These groups naturally tend to aggrivate each other.


----------



## detective-boy (Jul 20, 2008)

slowjoe said:


> _But_, there are also people _in_ traditional positions of authority - whether parents or police officers - who refuse to accept that their authority is not of the same variety as in the past. I have never been arrested, but have once or twice been stopped by the police, and each time I've been surprised at the way even young officers react to a lively debate - they often imply that 'answering back' is somehow tantamount to a criminal offence.


Indeed ... but this actually opens up another mystery.  Within the police service at the moment there is a debate about the falling dress and other standards of young PCs and their "challenging" attitudes to sergeants when pulled up.  The older officers (which by definition includes most senior officers) throw their hands up in anguish and blame our society which now encourages young people to challenge and ask (this isn't new - it was happening as long ago as the early 90s).  This doesn't fit with the old, more miltaristic way of the police operating, where orders were accepted and acted on without question or you got an almight bollocking (or worse).

(I always used to try and establish a level of understanding on my teams that there was a time and place for debate and a time and place for just doing it - we usually managed some level of understanding!)   

The discrepancy comes when you look at how the police and young people interact - I think if you spoke to most youngsters they would say that the older PCs were not the problem - they would more often explain what was happening and be patient and calm things down.  It would be the _younger_ ones who would expect immediate compliance or launch into using force, etc.

Bizarre - the young cops spend half their lifes challenging authority when it is applied to them by their sergeants and the other half expecting immediate obedience from the youngsters they encounter on the street ...


----------



## George & Bill (Jul 20, 2008)

detective-boy said:


> Indeed ... but this actually opens up another mystery.  Within the police service at the moment there is a debate about the falling dress and other standards of young PCs and their "challenging" attitudes to sergeants when pulled up.  The older officers (which by definition includes most senior officers) throw their hands up in anguish and blame our society which now encourages young people to challenge and ask (this isn't new - it was happening as long ago as the early 90s).  This doesn't fit with the old, more miltaristic way of the police operating, where orders were accepted and acted on without question or you got an almight bollocking (or worse).
> 
> (I always used to try and establish a level of understanding on my teams that there was a time and place for debate and a time and place for just doing it - we usually managed some level of understanding!)
> 
> ...



Well its hardly a surprise that young police officers exhibit the characteristics both of _police officers_ in general, and of _young people_ in general, is it? 

You will find the same paradox within the troublesome young people themselves - they are highly disrespectful towards and intolerant of authority, but in a way that itself uses the language of respect - the very language they are rebelling against. 

i.e., we're in an era of social transition, and people have confused values.


----------



## detective-boy (Jul 20, 2008)

slowjoe said:


> Well its hardly a surprise that young police officers exhibit the characteristics both of _police officers_ in general, and of _young people_ in general, is it?


The point is that they don't display them _together_ in a _consistent_ way in their dealings with supervisors and their dealings with the public.  They apply them in a "Jeckyll and Hyde" sort of way.

Logic would suggest that they either would either both act in a challenging way with their supervisors, but be far more relaxed about challenging behaviour from the public *or* they would be accepting of taking orders without question and expect the public not to challenge them.

Not only that, this is observable from very shortly after joining (before it would be expected that organisational culture has had an opportunity to change their behaviours greatly).


----------



## poster342002 (Jul 20, 2008)

detective-boy said:


> Bizarre - the young cops spend half their lifes challenging authority when it is applied to them by their sergeants and the other half expecting immediate obedience from the youngsters they encounter on the street ...



This paradox runs right through society. It's like how you get union reps who are also managers. They spend half their time crapping on about "fight the bosses! Worker rights!" etc - yet they are the first to pull you up and threaten you with disciplinary action over your "attitude" to them as your manager. 

I call it "hypocritical, two-faced twat syndrome". It's the logic of "do as I say, not as I do" and a belief that it's alright for _them_ to behave in any manner they chose, but not for those they believe should "respect their authoritah".


----------



## the Magus (Jul 20, 2008)

I teachin a Croydon school. Some of the kids in the area are absolutely out of control (with the route causes in poverty) there is a group strength mentality combined with a perception of 'they do nothing for me so why I should I do anything for them?', a total lack of empathy and the idea that 'people should be able to do what they want with nobody telling them otherwise'.


----------



## Gavin Bl (Jul 20, 2008)

detective-boy said:


> Bizarre - the young cops spend half their lifes challenging authority when it is applied to them by their sergeants and the other half expecting immediate obedience from the youngsters they encounter on the street ...



this isn't wildly different from the kind of aggro that started this thread though is it - that no-one can tell 'me' what to do, but when I want something everyone else has to jump. 

While it has been beneficial in many ways, individualism is in danger of becoming a monster.


----------



## detective-boy (Jul 20, 2008)

poster342002 said:


> I call it "hypocritical, two-faced twat syndrome".


* Bookmarks for future reference *


----------



## detective-boy (Jul 20, 2008)

Gavin Bl said:


> this isn't wildly different from the kind of aggro that started this thread though is it - that no-one can tell 'me' what to do, but when I want something everyone else has to jump.


Exactly.  I think it is a failure to balance rights with responsibilities.  Probably started with the whole "there's no such thing as society" approach of Thatcherism (I _know_ she never actually said those words ... ) and has just got worse from there with the (appallingly understood) Human Rights law and paedo-paranoia scaring teachers and others into not confronting kids ...


----------



## George & Bill (Jul 20, 2008)

detective-boy said:


> The point is that they don't display them _together_ in a _consistent_ way in their dealings with supervisors and their dealings with the public.  They apply them in a "Jeckyll and Hyde" sort of way.
> 
> _Logic would suggest that they either would either both act in a challenging way with their supervisors, but be far more relaxed about challenging behaviour from the public *or* they would be accepting of taking orders without question and expect the public not to challenge them._
> 
> Not only that, this is observable from very shortly after joining (before it would be expected that organisational culture has had an opportunity to change their behaviours greatly).



(my emphasis)

That logic would only work if it was a case of people making some sort of ideological decision to either conform to a traditional hierarchy of authority on one hand, or to resist such a system on the other. In reality people don't do this - they do what feels right at any given time. Resisting the authority _of_ other people and exercising authority _over_ other people might be ideologically at odds, but in emotional terms they satisfy a similar need.


----------



## Gavin Bl (Jul 20, 2008)

slowjoe said:


> they do what feels right at any given time. Resisting the authority _of_ other people and exercising authority _over_ other people might be ideologically at odds, but in emotional terms they satisfy a similar need.



But isn't the above the absolute kernel of the ideology of individualism? It is coherent, the indivivdual is at the core of all those actions.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 20, 2008)

zoltan69 said:


> "Two men, aged 34 and 38 and both from South Norwood, were held on Thursday morning on suspicion of assault and violent disorder"
> 
> a bit fuckin poor for people of this age



You're being ageist!! I'm older than them and would still put the boot in to cops THe Last time was a coupla years ago on Holloway road - goes to find thread


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 20, 2008)

Here is the thread on the incident. Descriptions of what happened start half way down the first page and carry on for lots more;

http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/sh...ight=anarchist+bookfair+holloway+road&page=13


----------



## detective-boy (Jul 20, 2008)

Attica said:


> THe Last time was a coupla years ago on Holloway road - goes to find thread


You really _don't_ know what a fucking pathetic parody you are, do you?  Care in the community has a lot to answer for ...


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 20, 2008)

detective-boy said:


> You really _don't_ know what a fucking pathetic parody you are, do you?  Care in the community has a lot to answer for ...



You do not know when you are a cunt


----------



## claphamboy (Jul 20, 2008)

Attica said:


> Here is the thread on the incident. Descriptions of what happened start half way down the first page and carry on for lots more;
> 
> http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/sh...ight=anarchist+bookfair+holloway+road&page=13



Wow what a hero.


----------



## Nougat (Jul 20, 2008)

Have not been ignoring these comments but have been away for a couple of days.



Melinda said:


> Are you actually defending the behaviour described? Oyster or not/ school unifrom or not, why should she threaten to slap the driver? Is that ok by you?
> 
> Its not ok for this girl to resolve issues by threatening people. It's wrong.



No, I am not defending the teen's behaviour but I honestly believe that there are ways of positively managing these type of situations and the course the driver took was not the most positive. 



Leafster said:


> It is possible that she had her free Oystercard revoked for some reason so the bus driver was only doing his job. As Melinda said, whatever the reasons she was asked to leave the bus, it doesn't excuse her threatening behaviour.



I respect the fact that the driver was trying to do his job as much as I respect that fact that the YP was trying to get to school. 



London_Calling said:


> She wouldn't have forgotten her phone, or her mp3 player, or anything else she wanted. *Generally, someone who would respond by saying she'll slap you in the face is already looking for opportunities for confrontation. *No different with droppping litter in front of police, and then dropping it a second time.



I disagree with you there. As you pointed out she said this in response to what must have seemed like aggravation in her eyes. An off the cuff statement such as the one uttered by the YP does not a threat make in my eye. 

@ Gnoriac, I seem to have missed you out of the multi quotes - No, I am not a bus driver. I teach KS3&4.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 20, 2008)

claphamboy said:


> Wow what a hero. :



Thanks.


----------



## STFC (Jul 21, 2008)

Attica said:


> Here is the thread on the incident. Descriptions of what happened start half way down the first page and carry on for lots more;
> 
> http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/sh...ight=anarchist+bookfair+holloway+road&page=13





Most people who commented on that 'incident' (a bit of pushing and shoving by the sound of it) seemed to find it embarrassing. Good old Attica though, claims to have been involved and is proud of it. What an absolute clown!


----------



## Groucho (Jul 21, 2008)

detective-boy said:


> I suspect there was a bit in the middle, after the second dropping and before the intervention of the others which went something like:
> 
> - Girl drops litter blatantly again
> - Police say "OK, you can get reported then"
> ...




Well times have certainly changed since my Grandad's day. When a copper stepped on my Grandad's heal over and over again until my Grandad lost his rag and decked him..the family panicked expecting a call at the door and an arrest. They expected the community to automatically assume my Grandad was in the wrong because people (excepting those involved in the General Strike etc) generally respected the police. 

Nowadays it seems, from your own account, most people assume the cops are in the wrong, and a substantial proportion of the population are prepared to take direct and violent action to protect fellow community members from the police. Seems to me that folk are generally more clued up these days then.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 21, 2008)

STFC said:


> Most people who commented on that 'incident' (a bit of pushing and shoving by the sound of it) seemed to find it embarrassing. Good old Attica though, claims to have been involved and is proud of it. What an absolute clown!



You dimwit can't recognise different things happened.


----------



## detective-boy (Jul 22, 2008)

Groucho said:


> Seems to me that folk are generally more clued up these days then.


No, there's just more wankers about ...


----------



## tarannau (Jul 22, 2008)

Groucho said:


> d the police.
> 
> Nowadays it seems, from your own account, most people assume the cops are in the wrong, and a substantial proportion of the population are prepared to take direct and violent action to protect fellow community members from the police. Seems to me that folk are generally more clued up these days then.



Indeed. I wonder why people have such negative views of the police. 

It just couldn't be a lack of confidence and the bitter voice of experience, could it.


----------



## poster342002 (Jul 22, 2008)

Groucho said:


> Nowadays it seems, from your own account, most people assume the cops are in the wrong, and a substantial proportion of the population are prepared to take direct and violent action to protect fellow community members from the police. Seems to me that folk are generally more clued up these days then.



Yeah - that simplistic approach serves as well when the cops _are_ trying to arrest a violent prick or a drug dealer (for examples), eh?


----------



## tarannau (Jul 22, 2008)

No, but after you've been stopped and searched for the second time in a week by rude cuntbags of officers then your view does tend to change. And I and others won't be alone in that experience - I'd expect a hefty minority of BME folks to feel to feel that way.


----------



## London_Calling (Jul 22, 2008)

I spoke with a probationer pc based at Croydon nick last night. What he said was pretty much as expected, it wasn’t a gang but rather random people joining in after the initial incident with the girl. As it all happened in the main High Street (between Tiger Tiger and, say, Primark) the police are still looking at the cctv.


----------



## d.a.s.h (Jul 22, 2008)

Was it 'proper coppers' or PCSOs involved in the Croydon incident?

Am asking because various people have popped up on the local newspaper website claiming to have seen the incident. Needless to say two totally different versions of the story are being touted in the comments section: innocent cops being attacked by vicious mob vs innocent youngsters being attacked by vicious cops. 

(But if it was PCSOs involved, they wouldn't have had batons.)

http://www.yourlocalguardian.co.uk/....2402362.0.police_attacked_in_rubbish_row.php


----------



## GarfieldLeChat (Jul 22, 2008)

the Magus said:


> I teachin a Croydon school. Some of the kids in the area are absolutely out of control (with the route causes in poverty) there is a group strength mentality combined with a perception of 'they do nothing for me so why I should I do anything for them?', a total lack of empathy and the idea that 'people should be able to do what they want with nobody telling them otherwise'.



you're a teacher and you don't know it's root causes as in at the root of the problem ... no wonder the kids in the area are fucked...


----------



## STFC (Jul 22, 2008)

Attica said:


> You dimwit can't recognise different things happened.



Dimwit? You linked to a description of the 'incident'. The recurring theme throughout that thread is that the whole thing was an embarrassment. More than two years down the line, you're trying to claim you gave the old bill a kicking.

Attaboy, Attica!


----------



## TopCat (Jul 22, 2008)

What a load of bollocks being talked on this thread, ignorant bollocks. 

The facts are that the police are carrying out what many are reffering to as a modern day swamp style operation in Croydon in order to "clamp down hard" on several gangs which are prone to stabbing each other. They are targetting every black kid in the area and are full on, with armed plod in the stations, carrying out stop and searches without reasonable suspicion, pushing people about, illegally stopoping people from travelling and all that wank that does not affect nice middle class white sneerers here. 

If this policy carries on we will end up having riots and the Whitgift Centre burnt to the ground. Oh what fun consolation that will be.


----------



## TopCat (Jul 22, 2008)

pk said:


> They appeared overnight in winter 1996 wearing Kappa tracksuits.
> 
> I have no idea what causes them to breed, however. Stella Artois would be my guess.
> 
> Let's face it, the gene pool could use a little chlorine. Especially in Croydon.



Can it dickhead.


----------



## Dan U (Jul 22, 2008)

TopCat said:


> Whitgift burnt to the ground. Oh what fun consolation that will be.



that would be safe.

they certainly stop a disproportionate amount of black kids at East and West Croydon train stations.


----------



## TopCat (Jul 22, 2008)

detective-boy said:


> If we all joined in and supported someone making a stand or confronting unacceptable, or at least violent, behaviour then we would win hands down - the scrotes who _think_ they own the street are in a tiny minority.  They only "own" the streets because we collectively let them.
> 
> Look at any of the numerous stories about estates being "turned round" when someone manages to get the residents to cooperate and confront the bad guys.
> 
> (In fact, we can learn something from the Croydon incident - faced with two coppers brandishing batons and CS did they go "Oh, I might get hurt, I'm not getting involved and pretend not to have noticed, stick their heads in the paper, hope the ground swallows them up ..." ... No.  They continued to advance, knowing full well that despite the weapons, two people could not overcome thirty (or however many it turns out to be ...).  If good people realised that, and acted upon it, the world could be a very different place.  They can't intimidate, persecute, injure and kill us all.  But if we allow them to divide and conquer, they can, one at a time ... )



I will try and get involved next time, add a 41 year old man to the charge sheet if they spray another teenage girll in the face with cs.


----------



## TopCat (Jul 22, 2008)

Dan U said:


> that would be safe.
> 
> they certainly stop a disproportionate amount of black kids at East and West Croydon train stations.



On the day of Lewisham peoples day recently the police would not allow any black kids to travel out of East Croydon and West Croydon Stations, they backed this illegal shit up with dogs and guns and threats. They will reap what they sow as always.


----------



## detective-boy (Jul 22, 2008)

tarannau said:


> No, but after you've been stopped and searched for the second time in a week by rude cuntbags of officers then your view does tend to change. And I and others won't be alone in that experience - I'd expect a hefty minority of BME folks to feel to feel that way.


You have, of course, complained each time, haven't you?

* Waits for usual "It's a waste of time, nothing ever happens" bleating ... *


----------



## detective-boy (Jul 22, 2008)

TopCat said:


> ...carrying out stop and searches without reasonable suspicion, pushing people about, illegally stopoping people from travelling ...


Ditto.

And engaging with all the local police/community consultative arrangements that are in place too I suppose ...


----------



## TopCat (Jul 22, 2008)

detective-boy said:


> You have, of course, complained each time, haven't you?
> 
> * Waits for usual "It's a waste of time, nothing ever happens" bleating ... *



I complain from time to time by throwing blunt objects at police people when they have gone too far.


----------



## detective-boy (Jul 22, 2008)

TopCat said:


> ... if they spray another teenage girll in the face with cs.


What would you rather they do?  Baton her ...  

Or just go "Oh, if you're going to kick off, that's fine love.  Just ignore whatever laws you like .."  and walk away?


----------



## detective-boy (Jul 22, 2008)

TopCat said:


> I complain from time to time by throwing blunt objects at police people when they have gone too far.


So that's a "no" then, in getting engaged with any of the various arrangements in place for the community influencing how policing takes place and raising issues about how it is delivered.  How fucking helpful ...


----------



## TopCat (Jul 22, 2008)

detective-boy said:


> Ditto.
> 
> And engaging with all the local police/community consultative arrangements that are in place too I suppose ...



Why would I wish to engage with police forums that are soley concerned with ensuring as much hassle free shopping goes on? They harrass the street drinkers (after forcing the pubs not to serve them), they harrass the kids of all hues, they really harrass the black kids, the refusal to allow people to travel is totally wrong and illegal and it's on orders from their bosses.

They carry on and Croydon will slap them.


----------



## Crispy (Jul 22, 2008)

Detectiveboy and Topcat pace the edge of the ring, watching each other's moves, making feints and shuffles. These two titans of the interwebs prepare to lock horns for another 10 rounds of inspired verbal pugulism.

Or, you know, don't. Ta.


----------



## TopCat (Jul 22, 2008)

detective-boy said:


> What would you rather they do?  Baton her ...
> 
> Or just go "Oh, if you're going to kick off, that's fine love.  Just ignore whatever laws you like .."  and walk away?



They caused this situation by treating people like animals based on their age and the colour of their skin for _months_. This did not start that day any more than the Brixton riots started the day your cuntish collegeues shot Cherry Groce.


----------



## TopCat (Jul 22, 2008)

detective-boy said:


> So that's a "no" then, in getting engaged with any of the various arrangements in place for the community influencing how policing takes place and raising issues about how it is delivered.  How fucking helpful ...



"Community forums" re the police in Croydon are all about getting more budgets for the police. They offer no meaningful way of influencing policy at all. They are just a front for politicians on the make to show how hard they are.


----------



## detective-boy (Jul 22, 2008)

TopCat said:


> ... the refusal to allow people to travel is totally wrong and illegal...


Of course it is ... which is why, if you have _evidence_ of it (you do have more than some unsubstantiated allegation of rumour, don't you?) you shouldn't let it go.

And your "I'm not getting involved with consultative arrangements cos they want different things" is, frankly pathetic.  How the fuck does anyone expect anything to change if they do not engage with the issue.  In my experinece the police would _love_ to have people involved in their various meetings who wnat to improves things that really matter instead of just being confronted with more busybody, right-wing lunatics with nothing better to do with their time than whinge on about their personal hobby-horse ...


----------



## detective-boy (Jul 22, 2008)

TopCat said:


> "Community forums" re the police in Croydon are all about getting more budgets for the police. They offer no meaningful way of influencing policy at all. They are just a front for politicians on the make to show how hard they are.


Wrong on all counts.  

Well done!  They have no role in getting budgets.  They are all about influencing policy.  There may be politicians involved ... but if real people turned up, they'd get frozen out / made to actually do something useful themselves.


----------



## detective-boy (Jul 22, 2008)

Crispy said:


> Or, you know, don't. Ta.


What on earth is the point of these boards if you cannot challenge another posters position?  To ask for them to substantiate their view?  

If we are not allowed to do that we'll just end up with a load of threads which read:

OP:  I'd really like the moon on a stick.

Everyone else:  That's nice, dear.


----------



## STFC (Jul 22, 2008)

tarannau said:


> Indeed. I wonder why people have such negative views of the police.
> 
> It just couldn't be a lack of confidence and the bitter voice of experience, could it.



I suppose it must work the other way too. The police probably deal with so many tossers on a daily basis that after a while they just think most people are tossers so they'll treat them accordingly. It's a vicious circle.


----------



## Guineveretoo (Jul 22, 2008)

I not only live in Croydon, but in South Norwood, but completely missed the news about this because I was away. I can, however, say that I don't think Croydon is worse than lots of other town centres in London. It's got a huge shopping centre, and everyone knows that shopping centres attract teenagers. My daughter used to hang around in the one in Cambridge, in fact...

There is something scary about the way that disputes seem to be turning into knifings, but that is not just a Croydon phenomenon.

I can't quite work out what happened in this instance, and all I have seen is this thread, but I would just say that I have heard the word "chav" used to describe black kids as well as white ones. In fact, there really are stereotypical "chav" teenage girls around on the buses and in the pubs around here. I had to smile the other day when I was in a local pub on my own, watching a group of teenage girls having a drink, and idly noticing how they were all dressed in the "uniform" of the teenage "chav", even down to the "Croydon facelift". After they had had a drink, a group of boys came in, bringing the pushchairs with the children. I kid you not. It was like that Vicky Pollard being cloned. They were all black.

Anyway, that's a bit irrelevant, since they were all having innocent fun, and didn't even mind me staring at them. They were quite friendly towards me, in fact.

I know my experience is different, but I do live round here, and I have always found the local plod to be good guys. I really don't think the bastard coppers who certainly do exist, would survive around here for long...


----------



## Crispy (Jul 22, 2008)

detective-boy said:


> What on earth is the point of these boards if you cannot challenge another posters position?  To ask for them to substantiate their view?


I'm not asking you not to argue, I'm warning both of you not to start slagging each other off.


----------



## TopCat (Jul 22, 2008)

Crispy said:


> I'm not asking you not to argue, I'm warning both of you not to start slagging each other off.



Reading this thread with all the anti croydon anti working class abuse gave me the arse. Don't clamp too hard on me please given the light touch previously given to moderation earlier on.


----------



## TopCat (Jul 22, 2008)

STFC said:


> I suppose it must work the other way too. The police probably deal with so many tossers on a daily basis that after a while they just think most people are tossers so they'll treat them accordingly. It's a vicious circle.



This is a kernel of truth. Supervision may be the answer, and democratic accountability for the police?


----------



## detective-boy (Jul 22, 2008)

STFC said:


> I suppose it must work the other way too. The police probably deal with so many tossers on a daily basis that after a while they just think most people are tossers so they'll treat them accordingly. It's a vicious circle.


It does and they do.  It is, however, their responsibility to be grown-up about it and break the cycle.  If they don't they are not doing their job properly, however understandable it may be.

That said, there is a time and place in every discussion about the commission of some offence to say "OK, I'm bored now - you're nicked!" and abandon any further intention of applying discretion.  The officers in this case, for instance, could not just keep picking it up, smiling sweetly and giving it back to her.


----------



## TopCat (Jul 22, 2008)

detective-boy said:


> That said, there is a time and place in every discussion about the commission of some offence to say "OK, I'm bored now - you're nicked!" and abandon any further intention of applying discretion.  .



This goes both ways. From time to time people will stop tolerating the police blatantly over reaching their authority and slap them.


----------



## Crispy (Jul 22, 2008)

TopCat said:


> Reading this thread with all the anti croydon anti working class abuse gave me the arse. Don't clamp too hard on me please given the light touch previously given to moderation earlier on.


No clamping, just friendly advice


----------



## detective-boy (Jul 22, 2008)

TopCat said:


> Supervision may be the answer, and democratic accountability for the police?


They are both parts of the answer.  But how are they to work if people like you, seeing police malpractice / observing misguided police policies and tactics being put into practice do nothing about it?  Do you suggest that a sergeant follows every PC around 24/7 ... and an Inspector follows every Sgt ... continues _ad infinitum_?

The only way that the police can effectively be supervised is if the public play their part in a responsible manner.


----------



## detective-boy (Jul 22, 2008)

TopCat said:


> From time to time people will stop tolerating the police blatantly over reaching their authority and slap them.


Indeed - and over the years I have seen a number of gobby officers learn this lesson the hard way.  Unfortunately the use of physical force will _never_ be viewed by the Courts as a reasonable response to someone being over-authoratitive (or even rude / abusive) ... and thus the person doing the slapping inevitably ends up in more trouble than the copper who started the whole thing and they undermine the complaint they originally had.


----------



## TopCat (Jul 22, 2008)

detective-boy said:


> They are both parts of the answer.  But how are they to work if people like you, seeing police malpractice / observing misguided police policies and tactics being put into practice do nothing about it?  Do you suggest that a sergeant follows every PC around 24/7 ... and an Inspector follows every Sgt ... continues _ad infinitum_?
> 
> The only way that the police can effectively be supervised is if the public play their part in a responsible manner.



The police (which I personally witnessed) who were refusing to let people board trains at East Croydon based on their "race" were not doing so on their own intiative, they were obviously under orders. You don't get armed cops, cops with dogs, a whole clutch of CSO's and ordinary plods plus TFL staff all over reaching together like that. Hence any complaint to their boss is a laughable suggestion.


----------



## TopCat (Jul 22, 2008)

detective-boy said:


> Indeed - and over the years I have seen a number of gobby officers learn this lesson the hard way.  Unfortunately the use of physical force will _never_ be viewed by the Courts as a reasonable response to someone being over-authoratitive (or even rude / abusive) ... and thus the person doing the slapping inevitably ends up in more trouble than the copper who started the whole thing and they undermine the complaint they originally had.



You presume that every one gets caught. Further you put forward that any over reaching is just an issue with that officer rather than orders from above, from the very top as it were.


----------



## TopCat (Jul 22, 2008)

Croydon gets a massive amount of police and CSO's and wardens etc because of the huge amount of money that gets spent there in the various shopping centres. Money is king and nothing must get in the way of people spending. Hence we have to put up with legions of police at our stations taking enforcement to degrees of absurdness (East Croydon has more arrests than anywhere I think). It's getting worse, we could well end up with a riot or certainly more scuffles before the summer is out.


----------



## zoltan (Jul 22, 2008)

I didnt realsie it was that bad down that way


----------



## TopCat (Jul 22, 2008)

On the whole Croydon is pretty hassle free. Chuggers have returned though.


----------



## Guineveretoo (Jul 22, 2008)

zoltan69 said:


> I didnt realsie it was that bad down that way




It's not!


----------



## poster342002 (Jul 22, 2008)

zoltan69 said:


> I didnt realsie it was that bad down that way



To be honest, these agressive, heavy handed stops at stations (usually on the pretext of detecting fare evasion) are not limited to Croydon and they're not limited to race. I've seen them everywhere and they are thoroughly unpleasant, over the top, do not deal with people in a reasonable manner and refuse to hear reasoned argument - however politely put. They just kafakesquely accuse someone, issue fines and summonses like some inadequate little wannabe "judge dredd" and then go into "dalek/repeat" mode when the person tries to put their side of the story - winding the person up into a tearful rage.

And I say all that as someone who pays their fare, but still finds these operations distasteful. They just come across as an obnoxious and confrontational excercise in rubbing people's noses in it.


----------



## Dan U (Jul 22, 2008)

Croydon is bare safe bruv.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jul 22, 2008)

TopCat said:


> Croydon gets a massive amount of police and CSO's and wardens etc because of the huge amount of money that gets spent there in the various shopping centres. Money is king and nothing must get in the way of people spending. Hence we have to put up with legions of police at our stations taking enforcement to degrees of absurdness (East Croydon has more arrests than anywhere I think). It's getting worse, we could well end up with a riot or certainly more scuffles before the summer is out.



Quite a few big corporate buildings down there as well aren't there? I don't know, I've not really been back there for a long time, but they were certainly trying to encourage them.


----------



## TopCat (Jul 22, 2008)

After 08:15 in the morning there are more people communting to work in Croydon than commuting out of it into London.


----------



## London_Calling (Jul 22, 2008)

zoltan69 said:


> I didnt realsie it was that bad down that way


With all due respect to Top Cat, it's not. At least imo.

The policing policy at the moment to target the yoof crime and especially knifes is causing tension among the yoof - no great surprise there. But it doesn't really extend far beyond that demographic group because there isn't the serious  disenfranchised base you might see in proper innner London areas. 

Yep, there's some, but Croydon is as much about doing your thing in Primark or Tiger Tiger or Lunar House or the office blocks or making your transport connection.


----------



## TopCat (Jul 22, 2008)

About four years back during the world cup we saw the police plan to protect the money (e.g the Whitgift and other shopping centres) at all costs put into action.  A few drunks in the Yates's were upset at England losing to Portugal in the World cup and started being dangerously violent e.g shouting and throwing plastic chairs about. The riot police arrived and battered them down the hill into South End away from the shops then got them all years in nick as it's all camered up.


----------



## Dan U (Jul 22, 2008)

i started a thread on here about the police in Croydon on a Saturday recently.

it was a few days after that kid got stabbed in Thornton Heath and i assumed that the literally 100+ police in and around the centre was to do with that.

however it was to protect the Home Office building from about 30-40 protesters on bikes according to subsequent news coverage.

epic over reaction.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 22, 2008)

TopCat said:


> What a load of bollocks being talked on this thread, ignorant bollocks.
> 
> The facts are that the police are carrying out what many are reffering to as a modern day swamp style operation in Croydon in order to "clamp down hard" on several gangs which are prone to stabbing each other. They are targetting every black kid in the area and are full on, with armed plod in the stations, carrying out stop and searches without reasonable suspicion, pushing people about, illegally stopoping people from travelling and all that wank that does not affect nice middle class white sneerers here.
> 
> If this policy carries on we will end up having riots and the Whitgift Centre burnt to the ground. Oh what fun consolation that will be.



SUS is back! It didn't end too well last time either. They learn nothing...


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 22, 2008)

STFC said:


> Dimwit? You linked to a description of the 'incident'. The recurring theme throughout that thread is that the whole thing was an embarrassment. More than two years down the line, you're trying to claim you gave the old bill a kicking.
> 
> Attaboy, Attica!




Giving t'owd bill a kick is easy is what was claimed wally... That is totally different to a kicking. I did give a particularly inneffective kick to the old bill once - at the Anti globalisation do in B'ham about 10 years ago - i misjudged the distance and it skimmed him - didn't get nicked for that either. Could have been something to do with the militant crowd around me

Also I gave the old bill an imaginary kick in the balls once!! I did get nicked nearly 20 years ago for fighting t'owd bill in Trafalgar square. BUT instead of using real events they fabricated and said I kicked the plod in the balls while laying on my back underneath a scrum of filth trying to pig me. Magistrates didn't believe their story and I got a not guilty I was guilty of something else, and tbh I wouldn't have minded half so much if they just tried to convict me on what I did do. BUT instead they fabricate evidence and in doing so it weakens their case, over and over again...


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 22, 2008)

Originally Posted by zoltan69  
"Two men, aged 34 and 38 and both from South Norwood, were held on Thursday morning on suspicion of assault and violent disorder"

a bit fuckin poor for people of this age



Attica said:


> You're being ageist!! I'm older than them and would still put the boot in to cops THe Last time was a coupla years ago on Holloway road - goes to find thread



Ageism is a worse crime than anything I have been guilty of


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jul 22, 2008)

The Whitgift Centre needs fucking bombing to be quite honest.


----------



## TopCat (Jul 23, 2008)

We had three plod plus 2 CSO plus TFL staff at East Croydon yesterday. When I stroll up there in my suit without a ticket I get to pay a penalty fare of a tenner. If you are under 21 or so whatever your skin colour, they nick you. Fucking breeding madness with this policy of waging war on Croydon's youth.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 23, 2008)

TopCat said:


> We had three plod plus 2 CSO plus TFL staff at East Croydon yesterday. When I stroll up there in my suit without a ticket I get to pay a penalty fare of a tenner. If you are under 21 or so whatever your skin colour, they nick you. Fucking breeding madness with this policy of waging war on Croydon's youth.



Is it your suggestion that ageism such as this should be outlawed?


----------



## brasicritique (Jul 23, 2008)

pk said:


> Chav scum.



so what does that make you?


----------



## brasicritique (Jul 23, 2008)

personally i am sad that the police did not get hospitalised - its funny how so many poster moan about being arrested on demos for not doing anything but if a girl gets asked to pick up littter and it kicks off then she was.. like ..asking for it man..yknow..  but then i have always said some people seem to think there civil rights and freedoms are more important then others - sad that


----------



## detective-boy (Jul 24, 2008)

TopCat said:


> Fucking breeding madness with this policy of waging war on Croydon's youth.


Quite right.  You should have been nicked too.


----------



## detective-boy (Jul 24, 2008)

brasicritique said:


> personally i am sad that the police did not get hospitalised


Personally I am sad that you have not topped yourself yet ...


----------



## Crispy (Jul 24, 2008)

detective-boy said:


> Personally I am sad that you have not topped yourself yet ...


You do yourself a disservice by treating attacks on the police in general as attacks on your person. This is a very nasty comment and was not justified.


----------



## STFC (Jul 24, 2008)

brasicritique said:


> personally i am sad that the police did not get hospitalised - its funny how so many poster moan about being arrested on demos for not doing anything but if a girl gets asked to pick up littter and it kicks off then she was.. like ..asking for it man..yknow..  but then i have always said some people seem to think there civil rights and freedoms are more important then others - sad that



The right to drop litter? I'm happy to see that one curtailed, quite frankly.


----------



## TopCat (Jul 24, 2008)

detective-boy said:


> Quite right.  You should have been nicked too.



You'll never take me alive copper....


----------



## TopCat (Jul 24, 2008)

detective-boy said:


> Personally I am sad that you have not topped yourself yet ...



Suicide seems quite prevalent amongst police people at the moment. Guilty conciences perhaps, holidays in Jersey biting their arses?


----------



## detective-boy (Jul 24, 2008)

TopCat said:


> Suicide seems quite prevalent amongst police people at the moment.


Performance management and mindless bureaucracy, actually ...


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 24, 2008)

detective-boy said:


> Performance management and mindless bureaucracy, actually ...



The corruption catches up with them in the end, covering each others backs all the times, the backhanders, the drug deals, too much stress = the way out via a bullet.


----------



## pk (Jul 24, 2008)

TopCat said:


> Suicide seems quite prevalent amongst police people at the moment. Guilty conciences perhaps, holidays in Jersey biting their arses?


----------



## goldenecitrone (Jul 24, 2008)

Crispy said:


> You do yourself a disservice by treating attacks on the police in general as attacks on your person. This is a very nasty comment and was not justified.



Although, many attacks on the police in general do get directed DB's way. So I can see why he may sometimes take it personally.


----------



## JHE (Jul 25, 2008)

In another recent incident in the Croydon area a 10-year-old boy slashed the arm of a middle-aged woman who had refused to give him a cigarette.

_“It is understood they used either a Stanley knife or a sharp razor blade.

“The cut didn't go right to the bone, but it was still a pretty deep cut and the woman was left in deep shock.”_​
http://www.thisiscroydontoday.co.uk...oy-aged-10/article-235262-detail/article.html


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## detective-boy (Jul 25, 2008)

Crispy said:


> You do yourself a disservice by treating attacks on the police in general as attacks on your person. This is a very nasty comment and was not justified.


When a prick starts a post with a wish that police officers had been injured to the extent of being hospitalised, as a result of doing their job, it so IS justified.

The mirroring of the posters words was intended to draw attention to the fact it was a direct response to their post.  Clearly the subtlety was lost.  Perhaps I should have just put "Fuck off and die" ...


----------



## detective-boy (Jul 25, 2008)

JHE said:


> .... a middle-aged woman who had refused to give him a cigarette.


* Takes bets on who will be first to post a "Yeah but, no but, yeah but...she was really, like, rude...she so deserved it ..." style post *


----------



## TopCat (Jul 25, 2008)

detective-boy said:


> When a prick starts a post with a wish that police officers had been injured to the extent of being hospitalised, as a result of doing their job, it so IS justified.
> 
> The mirroring of the posters words was intended to draw attention to the fact it was a direct response to their post.  Clearly the subtlety was lost.  Perhaps I should have just put "Fuck off and die" ...



They were not "just doing their job" though were they?


----------



## TopCat (Jul 25, 2008)

detective-boy said:


> * Takes bets on who will be first to post a "Yeah but, no but, yeah but...she was really, like, rude...she so deserved it ..." style post *



I bet no one will. The two situations are totally different.


----------



## detective-boy (Jul 25, 2008)

TopCat said:


> They were not "just doing their job" though were they?


The incident started with them challenging a girl who dropped litter.  That is indisputed by anyone else.  Whilst it is only a trivial matter (and hence their simple request for her to pick it up and dispose of it in a bin as a means of dealing with the incident) it is certainly within their job description.  Everything else, no matter who's account you believe, stemmed from that.


----------



## TopCat (Jul 26, 2008)

detective-boy said:


> The incident started with them challenging a girl who dropped litter.  That is indisputed by anyone else.  Whilst it is only a trivial matter (and hence their simple request for her to pick it up and dispose of it in a bin as a means of dealing with the incident) it is certainly within their job description.  Everything else, no matter who's account you believe, stemmed from that.



So your bets not going well eh? As for your revisionism, you well know the happy slapping your two big cops got was the result of a backlash against a sustained period of police actions (some clearly illegal) against mainly black youths in Croydon.  Add to this the unreported revenge taken since by the police against members of that bunch of berks MDP in South Norwood, well the mix gets hotter by the day.


----------



## cesare (Jul 26, 2008)

I dunno why, but it does piss me off when people diss Croydon. I've been looking at this thread for days whilst harbouring evil thoughts of smacking pk's nose and  simultaneously tickling him ruthlessly until he squeaks and collapses on the floor begging for mercy


----------



## detective-boy (Jul 26, 2008)

TopCat said:


> As for your revisionism, you well know the happy slapping your two big cops got was the result of a backlash against a sustained period of police actions (some clearly illegal) against mainly black youths in Croydon.


I (and I suspect you) "know" nothing of the sort.  And talking of revisionism, are you denying that the whole incident started when a girl dropped litter, was told to pick it up, did so and then deliberately dropped it again?


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 27, 2008)

detective-boy said:


> I (and I suspect you) "know" nothing of the sort.  And talking of revisionism, are you denying that the whole incident started when a girl dropped litter, was told to pick it up, did so and then deliberately dropped it again?



It was a protest But seriously, she was havin a larf, people regularly take the piss out of authority you know.


----------



## detective-boy (Jul 27, 2008)

Attica said:


> It was a protest But seriously, she was havin a larf, people regularly take the piss out of authority you know.


You were there were you?

I'll happily have a tenner with you that when / if the CCTV comes out it'll be perfectly plain that she was sticking two fingers up, not having a larf.


----------



## co-op (Jul 28, 2008)

detective-boy said:


> I'll happily have a tenner with you that when / if the CCTV comes out it'll be perfectly plain that she was sticking two fingers up, not having a larf.




CCTV can't tell you which of those two things she was doing since the difference between them is pure interpretation. And any half-decent teenager know instinctively how to find the exact half-way point between the two, just to piss us middle-aged people off. Twas ever so?

Our choice is whether to rise to the bait or find a better way. My guess is the police here got a bit suckered in from something very petty to something much bigger by taking this as a personal challenge and starting to worry about 'losing face'. 

Street Rule #1 has got to be "don't play losing-face-games with rudegirls because you will lose". 

OK maybe it's not Rule #1, but it's got to be top 10.


----------



## STFC (Jul 28, 2008)

co-op said:


> Street Rule #1 has got to be "don't play losing-face-games with rudegirls because you will lose".
> 
> OK maybe it's not Rule #1, but it's got to be top 10.



The day the old bill back down from gobby young girls is the day we really will have lost it.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 28, 2008)

detective-boy said:


> You were there were you?
> 
> I'll happily have a tenner with you that when / if the CCTV comes out it'll be perfectly plain that she was sticking two fingers up, not having a larf.



If she was sticking 2 fingers up she would have been.....   sticking 2 fingers up. I bet the filth over reacted. They just cannot take being mocked. 

They are not called 'Little Hitlers' for nothing


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 28, 2008)

co-op said:


> CCTV can't tell you which of those two things she was doing since the difference between them is pure interpretation. And any half-decent teenager know instinctively how to find the exact half-way point between the two, just to piss us middle-aged people off. Twas ever so?
> 
> Our choice is whether to rise to the bait or find a better way. My guess is the police here got a bit suckered in from something very petty to something much bigger by taking this as a personal challenge and starting to worry about 'losing face'.
> 
> ...



Fantastic post.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 28, 2008)

STFC said:


> The day the old bill back down from gobby young girls is the day we really will have lost it.



Hahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahaha


----------



## STFC (Jul 28, 2008)

Attica said:


> Hahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahaha



It appears you have acquired a sense of humour. A bit of a weird one, but congratulations nonetheless.

Do you find it amusing that two people could go to prison for assaulting police, as a direct result of this lairy youngster's behaviour?


----------



## detective-boy (Jul 28, 2008)

co-op said:


> My guess is the police here got a bit suckered in from something very petty to something much bigger by taking this as a personal challenge and starting to worry about 'losing face'.


Maybe.  

Depends what their reaction to the second dropping was.  If they calmly moved into we're going to report you mode and she then kicked off because they dare report her, that is not their problem - what do you expect them to do, shrug and walk away?  If they responded excessively, then, yes, they have contributed to the outcome.   Sadly in this day and age I would not at all rule out her kicking off in response to a perfectly calm and proper move to reporting her ... (you have seen how similar situations kick off when bus drivers have the temerity to politely tell someone they can't get on without a valid pass, or when rail ticket collectors have the temerity to try to report someone without a ticket, haven't you? )  

You'd be surprised how revealing non-verbal communication captured on CCTV can be, too ... not _evidence_ obviously, but anyone watching it would know for sure ...


----------



## lights.out.london (Jul 28, 2008)

We need shock n' awe to surpress the Croydon insurgency cell. Or something.


----------



## co-op (Jul 28, 2008)

detective-boy said:


> Maybe.
> 
> Depends what their reaction to the second dropping was.  If they calmly moved into we're going to report you mode and she then kicked off because they dare report her, that is not their problem - what do you expect them to do, shrug and walk away?  If they responded excessively, then, yes, they have contributed to the outcome.



Well this is all in the areas of 'maybes' because I don't know what happened, I just mean it's incredibly easy to get sucked into confrontations with people who are highly confrontationally-oriented (eg your typical Croydon rudegirl). 

I quite often get involved in silly little street things (obviously I choose my battles carefully...) but as I'm 45 years old, grey-haired, quite big and tall I reckon I have a slight duty to do so. 

The last one was on Sunday, some kid trying to take another kids bike off him on Wandsworth Rd ( - they were both pre-teens, this isn't a big brag ) - so I pull the bigger one off the littler one and bandy a few words on the rightness and wrongness of bullying etc, and again I was shocked by the speed and the slipperyness of the wordplay - and this from a real tiddler who was obviously out-gunned in size by me. I got him on a point of logic though (he was claiming that the other kid had nicked the bike off a really little kid, so there you go - if he was wrong to do that, then you're wrong to do it to him, bingo gotcha). But you can quickly get lured into saying the wrong thing or of demanding that someone else do something and both of those will scupper your intervention. Also I think if you're trying to stop something, you have to do it by genuine example - eg if I see a kid being picked on by several others, that's bullying and I'm not (imo) allowed to sort it out by bullying the bullies - that simply corroborates the general rule that Might is Right.


Littering is tricky. Demanding that someone pick some rubbish up is a highly shaming demand if it is in front of her mates, or in a very public arena. I wouldn't ask it in those circumstances and not expect trouble. Last time I did the littering one was round the corner from my house when two boys threw an ice-cream wrapper down, practically in front of me as I walked along (a very oblique challenge, full of plausible deniability). I said "Excuse me!" in my best school-teacher voice made full eye-contact with both of them, picked it up, put it in a bin and turned and walked back towards them with just enough purpose that I _might_ have been going to whack someone... and said "_that's_ what you do with rubbish.....(pause + eye-contact)....alright?" I even got a mumbled apology...result.

I wouldn't do it with more than a couple or three I guess. Choose your battles wisely, innit.


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## The Black Hand (Jul 28, 2008)

STFC said:


> It appears you have acquired a sense of humour. A bit of a weird one, but congratulations nonetheless.
> 
> Do you find it amusing that two people could go to prison for assaulting police, as a direct result of this lairy youngster's behaviour?



I find it amusing that your right wing sensibilities can detect the end of civilisation in just about anything.


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## STFC (Jul 28, 2008)

Attica said:


> I find it amusing that your right wing sensibilities can detect the end of civilisation in just about anything.



Yes, I can detect the end of civilisation in a situation that will never actually come to pass.


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## The Black Hand (Jul 28, 2008)

STFC said:


> Yes, I can detect the end of civilisation in a situation that will never actually come to pass.


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## STFC (Jul 28, 2008)

STFC said:


> The day the old bill back down from gobby young girls is the day we really will have lost it.



It won't happen. Get it?


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## The Black Hand (Jul 28, 2008)

Attica said:


> I find it amusing that your right wing sensibilities can detect the end of civilisation in just about anything.










.


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## brasicritique (Jul 29, 2008)

STFC said:


> The right to drop litter? I'm happy to see that one curtailed, quite frankly.



yeh those dealy litter bugs who dont bother putting litter in the corect recycling bin which then gets put into third world landfills trific


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## brasicritique (Jul 29, 2008)

detective-boy said:


> Personally I am sad that you have not topped yourself yet ...



typical police response but then i suppose one of your D.I'S took your stash of puff  we only have to look at your defence of anything related to the erosion of civil liberties in context to your comment above to see where your coming from


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## detective-boy (Jul 29, 2008)

brasicritique said:


> typical police response but then i suppose one of your D.I'S took your stash of puff  we only have to look at your defence of anything related to the erosion of civil liberties in context to your comment above to see where your coming from


* Checks to see if we have any more razor blades ... *


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## brasicritique (Jul 31, 2008)

detective-boy said:


> * Checks to see if we have any more razor blades ... *



whys that surely you can use your warrent card to chop a line up  

At least other old bill have friends in the force look at you trying to be the cool policeman hanging out in the urban forums


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## detective-boy (Jul 31, 2008)

brasicritique said:


> At least other old bill have friends in the force look at you trying to be the cool policeman hanging out in the urban forums


I haven't been a policeman for five years, fuckwit.  Try and keep up ... 

And the ONLY reason I'm here is to try and provide accurate information about crime, criminal law and police and court procedure.  Some people seem to be grateful for that.  

But with cunts like you, I wonder why I bother ... twat.


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## Skimix (Aug 1, 2008)

I was quite impressed with the fines for dropping litter in California...$1000!  One of the first things I noticed when I got back was the amount of crap all over the floor here, really is totally disgusting, dunno what the fuck is wrong with people.


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## TopCat (Aug 1, 2008)

Skimix said:


> I was quite impressed with the fines for dropping litter in California...$1000!  One of the first things I noticed when I got back was the amount of crap all over the floor here, really is totally disgusting, dunno what the fuck is wrong with people.



There are more people and fewer bins available.


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## TopCat (Aug 1, 2008)

detective-boy said:


> I haven't been a policeman for five years, fuckwit.  Try and keep up ...
> 
> And the ONLY reason I'm here is to try and provide accurate information about crime, criminal law and police and court procedure.  Some people seem to be grateful for that.
> 
> But with cunts like you, I wonder why I bother ... twat.



Mouthy pig cunt ain't you? I bet you can't back it up now you can't call on your porky pals to assist.


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## detective-boy (Aug 1, 2008)

Skimix said:


> ... dunno what the fuck is wrong with people.


It's their _right_, innit.  Anyone telling them otherwise is _disrepectin'_ them.  

(Though why we have still not replaced the litter bins on stations, etc. taken away at the height of the IRA bombing campaigns in the 70s and 80s God only knows ... )


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## detective-boy (Aug 1, 2008)

TopCat said:


> Mouthy pig cunt ain't you?


As opposed to just a mouthy cunt, like you, you mean?  



> I bet you can't back it up now you can't call on your porky pals to assist.


Cor, you're hard ...   You really do live in a pathetic playground world, don't you?


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## tarannau (Aug 1, 2008)

Said the man who shouts and rounds on anybody who disagrees with him like a petulant, foot stomping child.


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## The Black Hand (Aug 2, 2008)

tarannau said:


> Said the man who shouts and rounds on anybody who disagrees with him like a petulant, foot stomping child.


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