# My six year old daughter's literacy homework has literacy errors.



## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Sep 15, 2013)

She has two questions and both contain grammatical errors.
Should I complain? The kids are supposed to read these questions and act on them, so I am slightly outraged that an adult teacher couldn't write them properly. Also, I am fairly sure that all the kids in the year get the same homework, but not one of the six teachers or support teachers noticed?

Or am I over reacting? We all make mistakes, perhaps the whole thing was rushed.
My current thought is to correct it in red ink and give them a bad mark.



> _1. Describe the setting of two rooms in your house. Please *uses adjective* in your writing.
> 
> 2. Your adult at home is in the kitchen. Use time connectives to describe *how they make you drink.*_


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## Maurice Picarda (Sep 15, 2013)

Like the Freudian slip.


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## Athos (Sep 15, 2013)

ATOMIC SUPLEX said:
			
		

> She has two questions and both contain grammatical errors.
> Should I complain? The kids are supposed to read these questions and act on them, so I am slightly outraged that an adult teacher couldn't write them properly. Also, I am fairly sure that all the kids in the year get the same homework, but not one of the six teachers or support teachers noticed?
> 
> Or am I over reacting? We all make mistakes, perhaps the whole thing was rushed.
> ...



What would be the point of pointing out what are just typos?


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## Thora (Sep 15, 2013)

Do you pick her up from school?  Just point it out in person to the teacher.  I don't think it is acceptable either.


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## Thora (Sep 15, 2013)

Athos said:


> What would be the point of pointing out what are just typos?


Because there shouldn't be typos on children's homework.


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## Frankie Jack (Sep 15, 2013)

Had to read the second one a few time to make sense of it. It still doesn't.


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## Pickman's model (Sep 15, 2013)

ATOMIC SUPLEX said:


> She has two questions and both contain grammatical errors.
> Should I complain? The kids are supposed to read these questions and act on them, so I am slightly outraged that an adult teacher couldn't write them properly. Also, I am fairly sure that all the kids in the year get the same homework, but not one of the six teachers or support teachers noticed?
> 
> Or am I over reacting? We all make mistakes, perhaps the whole thing was rushed.
> My current thought is to correct it in red ink and give them a bad mark.


how many six year old daughters do you have?


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## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Sep 15, 2013)

Athos said:


> What would be the point of pointing out what are just typos?


These are 'typos' in a child's literacy homework. The children should be able to read the questions without having to figure out if the teacher has made a mistake or not. It's only two questions, four sentences, and there are two errors. 

They are not typos in an email to parents. The second mistake changes the question completely.


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## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Sep 15, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> how many six year old daughters do you have?


One. What is your point caller?
If you are referring to 'the kids', I mean all 'the kids' that get homework, all the kids in the class. If you mean something else I don't see it.


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## zenie (Sep 15, 2013)

Broken Britain, of course you should complain!


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## _pH_ (Sep 15, 2013)

Was there a thread about this before? About how a lot of educational stuff is available to buy off the shelf but can be full of typos/spelling mistakes/bad grammar?


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## Poot (Sep 15, 2013)

I don't think it's acceptable. Unless they were testing to see whether the children notice. But I doubt they were


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## Athos (Sep 15, 2013)

ATOMIC SUPLEX said:
			
		

> These are 'typos' in a child's literacy homework. The children should be able to read the questions without having to figure out if the teacher has made a mistake or not. It's only two questions, four sentences, and there are two errors.
> 
> They are not typos in an email to parents. The second mistake changes the question completely.



There's a grammatical error in the title of this thread. Physician heal thyself.


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## isvicthere? (Sep 15, 2013)

A few years ago (well, the 90s I think) a school got a damning OFSTED report. However, it was so badly written, and riddled with misspellings and bad grammar, that they complained to the DoE, who upheld their complaint, and rejected the report. 

What that meant, though, was the school had to go though another OFSTED inspection almost immediately.


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## zenie (Sep 15, 2013)

Athos said:


> There's a grammatical error in the title of this thread. Physician heal thyself.



AS isn't educating our kids.


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## Pickman's model (Sep 15, 2013)

ATOMIC SUPLEX said:


> One. What is your point caller?
> If you are referring to 'the kids', I mean all 'the kids' that get homework, all the kids in the class. If you mean something else I don't see it.


perhaps you should revisit the thread title.

you're not familiar with the apostrophe, are you?


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## JimW (Sep 15, 2013)

Second one not necessarily an error - e.g. "They held me down in the high chair and forced the sippy cup between my lips" was how they made me drink. No time connectives in that example, I realise.


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## Athos (Sep 15, 2013)

zenie said:
			
		

> AS isn't educating our kids.



Thank fuck.


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## Maurice Picarda (Sep 15, 2013)

I would trust him to teach them the  ukelele.


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## Pickman's model (Sep 15, 2013)

zenie said:


> AS isn't educating our kids.


should be 'as isn't educating our kids '


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## isvicthere? (Sep 15, 2013)

ATOMIC SUPLEX said:


> One. What is your point caller?
> If you are referring to 'the kids', I mean all 'the kids' that get homework, all the kids in the class. If you mean something else I don't see it.



I think he's suggesting you've missed out an apostrophe in the OP.


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## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Sep 15, 2013)

Athos said:


> There's a grammatical error in the title of this thread. Physician heal thyself.


Yes I saw that but I can't edit it. 
I am not a teacher and I am not setting questions for six year old children's literacy homework. 

PS I now see what pickman's was referring to, for some reason I assumed it was the body text.


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## wayward bob (Sep 15, 2013)

ATOMIC SUPLEX said:


> My current thought is to correct it in red ink and give them a bad mark.



i've been known to correct spellings in school reports and write "see me"  in my defence they never get sent back to the teachers 

wtf is a time connective?


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## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Sep 15, 2013)

PPS. Oh you can edit it. Wish I had just done that in the first place and not suffered the 'oh so humorous' derailment.


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## Pickman's model (Sep 15, 2013)

ATOMIC SUPLEX said:


> PPS. Oh you can edit it. Wish I had just done that in the first place and not suffered the 'oh so humorous' derailment.


PPS? surely FFS. but it doesn't show a great grasp of grammar if you can't employ it yourself.


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## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Sep 15, 2013)

wayward bob said:


> i've been known to correct spellings in school reports and write "see me"  in my defence they never get sent back to the teachers
> 
> wtf is a time connective?



Yes, See me, that's a good one, i'll do that. 

I assume a time connective is - first, then, next etc. I'm pretty sure we didn't do time connectives when I was a kid. We didn't have phonics either.


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## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Sep 15, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> PPS? surely FFS. but it doesn't show a great grasp of grammar if you can't employ it yourself.


PS - Post script.

PPS - Post post script.


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## Pickman's model (Sep 15, 2013)

ATOMIC SUPLEX said:


> Post post script.


yeh and i think it would have been better 'for fuck's sake' than pps.


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## Thora (Sep 15, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> PPS? surely FFS. but it doesn't show a great grasp of grammar if you can't employ it yourself.


Why does his grasp of grammar matter?  Teachers getting things right is even more important if parents' don't have the language/grammar skills to spot or correct mistakes.


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## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Sep 15, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh and i think it would have been better 'for fuck's sake' than pps.


But it was a post post script and not a sweary moment. 
My mistake was a typo that I spotted. I did not think I could edit it. I did not think it was a big deal as I was only writing to an internet forum, not teaching children. If you don't mind I would rather you pathetically troll a thread of a more casual content.


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## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Sep 15, 2013)

Thora said:


> Why does his grasp of grammar matter?  Teachers getting things right is even more important if parents' don't have the language/grammar skills to spot or correct mistakes.



Indeed. I am certainly not the dopiest parent at my daughter's school, the second question becomes confusing, not least because (as mentioned before) time connectives (or connective at all) were not taught when I was a lad. 
"My mum makes me drink by firstly grabbing my throat and then ramming the drink down my gullet"


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## Corax (Sep 15, 2013)

It's depressingly common.  There's lots of good things about my nipper's junior school - the general attitude to developing and nurturing the kids being a prime one - but the letters that come home, and the posters around the school, are often riddled with grammatical fuck ups.  The use (or not) of apostrophes being the most frequent.


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## Athos (Sep 15, 2013)

ATOMIC SUPLEX said:
			
		

> My mistake was a typo that I spotted.



Don't worry; it could happen to anyone. 

A busy teacher with an enormous workload and tight deadlines. Or a bloke who likes to fill his spare time by grumbling on the internet.

Pick the teacher up on it if you like, but, given your own irritable reaction at having your mistakes pointed out, don't be surprised if he or she thinks you're a dick.


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## ash (Sep 15, 2013)

I have seen my daughters grammer corrected incorrectly. I spoke to the teacher and it was the TA that had marked the work and he was pleased to get the feedback. At homework club this week she was told (by another TA) that it didn't matter if she put the X or Y axis first when plotting a graph, so 1.6 is the same as 6.1!!!   It's bloody annoying as they look up to the teachers and TA's and it takes a bit of persuading to explain why it's wrong.


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## Thora (Sep 15, 2013)

Athos said:


> Don't worry; it could happen to anyone.
> 
> A busy teacher with an enormous workload and tight deadlines. Or a bloke who likes to fill his spare time by grumbling on the internet.
> 
> Pick the teacher up on it if you like, but, given your own irritable reaction at having your mistakes pointed out, don't be surprised if he or she thinks you're a dick.


It's important that the teacher gets it right, even if they are busy.  It doesn't matter if some bloke on the internet misses an apostrophe.


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## xenon (Sep 15, 2013)

ATOMIC SUPLEX said:


> She has two questions and both contain grammatical errors.
> Should I complain? The kids are supposed to read these questions and act on them, so I am slightly outraged that an adult teacher couldn't write them properly. Also, I am fairly sure that all the kids in the year get the same homework, but not one of the six teachers or support teachers noticed?
> 
> Or am I over reacting? We all make mistakes, perhaps the whole thing was rushed.
> My current thought is to correct it in red ink and give them a bad mark.



I don't even know what number 2 means? Looks like a shonky translation.

Speaking as someone who realises his spelling is atrotious and typos abound, I have little sympathy for people producing such shoddy documents. Assuming they're not dyslexic. Use a spell / grammer check. Or don't set literacy homework IMO.


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## wayward bob (Sep 15, 2013)

personally i wouldn't sweat it as long as i could actually understand what was intended and correct it so the kids knew how it should read. save bringing up stuff with the teachers for things that really matter. so ignoring the slip in the assembly where they'd been learning about the universe and at one point - i swear! - said the sun revolves around the earth  vs talking to them about the trips to the creationist zoo (which no longer happen  )


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## littlebabyjesus (Sep 15, 2013)

Regardless of the grammatical correctness of the questions, these are absolutely absurd things to ask a six-year-old. They should still be learning first and foremost through play at this age.


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## Corax (Sep 15, 2013)

Thora said:


> It's important that the teacher gets it right, even if they are busy.  It doesn't matter if some bloke on the internet misses an apostrophe.


Quite.

I'm not expected to know what the appropriate dosage for a prescription drug is.  But I'd be a little pissed off if my GP got it wrong.

This is their _*job*_ ffs.


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## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Sep 15, 2013)

Athos said:


> Don't worry; it could happen to anyone.
> 
> A busy teacher with an enormous workload and tight deadlines. Or a bloke who likes to fill his spare time by grumbling on the internet.
> 
> Pick the teacher up on it if you like, but, given your own irritable reaction at having your mistakes pointed out, don't be surprised if he or she thinks you're a dick.


Wow.
So you equate - The only two questions in a year wide (three classroom, six teacher) set of *literacy* homework, both being written wrong, (to the point of meaning something completely different), to a man missing an apostrophe on the internet?
I think you have pointed to the wrong person who is being a dick on this particular thread.


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## dessiato (Sep 15, 2013)

The one thing that really annoys me is English teachers setting homework with grammatical and spelling mistakes. How can a student be expected to learn English properly if the teacher is not able to write/speak English properly in the first place?


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## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Sep 15, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Regardless of the grammatical correctness of the questions, these are absolutely absurd things to ask a six-year-old. They should still be learning first and foremost through play at this age.



This I also agree on, it's also quite a leap from last year and in my experience children do not react well when the learning curve is too high. I try and make all my daughter's homework far more fun than it is at face value, but it can be quite time consuming building it into a game or adventure and I am not always available at the weekends and evenings to do this.


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## littlebabyjesus (Sep 15, 2013)

I don't think children should be given homework at all at this age. It's a control thing - even outside school hours, the school is attempting to exert control over what the children do.


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## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Sep 15, 2013)

wayward bob said:


> personally i wouldn't sweat it as long as i could actually understand what was intended and correct it so the kids knew how it should read. save bringing up stuff with the teachers for things that really matter. so ignoring the slip in the assembly where they'd been learning about the universe and at one point - i swear! - said the sun revolves around the earth  vs talking to them about the trips to the creationist zoo (which no longer happen  )



Well I certainly won't be bothering the teacher at the school gates or writing to the headmaster, but I will write my corrections in red, and maybe add a "see me please" (as a joke - though I worry it will be taken too seriously).


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## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Sep 15, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I don't think children should be given homework at all at this age. It's a control thing - even outside school hours, the school is attempting to exert control over what the children do.



In general I don't really mind, it helps me to know what is being learnt at school and also helps to give me an idea of what stage my daughter is at. 
For the most part it has been quite easy, but this weekend we have had quite a large set of maths homework, the work described in this thread, two books to read and a spelling test set.


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## bi0boy (Sep 15, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Regardless of the grammatical correctness of the questions, these are absolutely absurd things to ask a six-year-old. They should still be learning first and foremost through play at this age.



In school I spent most of my sixth year singing songs, playing in the sandpit, and making papier mâché objects. However we also learnt about tesselations, efficacious medicinal compounds and phosphoric acid.


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## Pickman's model (Sep 15, 2013)

Thora said:


> Why does his grasp of grammar matter?  Teachers getting things right is even more important if parents' don't have the language/grammar skills to spot or correct mistakes.


who do children spend more time with, parents or teachers? it seems to me that if what teachers try to instill is undermined by parents' casual grasp of grammar then it does matter. who is the greater role model, parents or teachers?


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## Citizen66 (Sep 15, 2013)

ash said:
			
		

> I have seen my daughters grammer corrected incorrectly.



Daughter's grammar.


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## Pickman's model (Sep 15, 2013)

ATOMIC SUPLEX said:


> One. What is your point caller?
> If you are referring to 'the kids', I mean all 'the kids' that get homework, all the kids in the class. If you mean something else I don't see it.


strange how you only 'spotted' it after it was pointed out to you.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Sep 15, 2013)

wayward bob said:


> i've been known to correct spellings in school reports and write "see me"  in my defence they never get sent back to the teachers
> 
> wtf is a time connective?



I certainly didn't deal with time connectives at that age.  I don't think we ever did.


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## Pickman's model (Sep 15, 2013)

ATOMIC SUPLEX said:


> Well I certainly won't be bothering the teacher at the school gates or writing to the headmaster, but I will write my corrections in red, and maybe add a "see me please" (as a joke - though I worry it will be taken too seriously).


write any corrections in pencil first then once you're sure they are in fact corrections you can ink them in.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Sep 15, 2013)

ATOMIC SUPLEX said:


> Indeed. I am certainly not the dopiest parent at my daughter's school, the second question becomes confusing, not least because (as mentioned before) time connectives (or connective at all) were not taught when I was a lad.
> "My mum makes me drink by firstly grabbing my throat and then ramming the drink down my gullet"



I don't understand the second question either, and ignore Pickman's.  You're NOT the teacher, so it's irrelevant whether you're making mistakes yourself.  Well, not irrelevant, but less relevant than the teacher's mistakes.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Sep 15, 2013)

Prepositions is another one.

I've heard English language students ask me about prepositions and I have no idea what they're talking about


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## Pickman's model (Sep 15, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> I don't understand the second question either, and ignore Pickman's.  You're NOT the teacher, so it's irrelevant whether you're making mistakes yourself.  Well, not irrelevant, but less relevant than the teacher's mistakes.


doesn't matter to me, not my child. everyone knows teachers don't teach so much any more, that they teach to the test rather than educate.


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## gentlegreen (Sep 15, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Prepositions is another one.
> 
> I've heard English language students ask me about prepositions and I have no idea what they're talking about


"durch für gegen ohne um"

I wouldn't know what a preposition was had I not studied German for O level.
(I passed German, but failed English


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## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Sep 15, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> strange how you only 'spotted' it after it was pointed out to you.


I know you won't believe me but I spotted it as soon as I had posted the thread, being only too aware that a thread about grammar should be double checked for it. 
I could not figure how to change it at first glance but did not think it was that important. When you made your comment I assumed (as I mentioned before) it was about something I had written in the body, and not some daft and pointless pedant trolling.


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## littlebabyjesus (Sep 15, 2013)

gentlegreen said:


> "durch für gegen ohne um"
> 
> I wouldn't know what a preposition was had I not studied German for O level.
> (I passed German, but failed English


You don't need to know what a preposition is to be able to use one properly. Or a noun or a verb or an adjective, for that matter. 

Analysing grammar like this is no doubt useful, particularly for learning other languages, but not at six years old. I'd like to see the developmental evidence this teaching is based on. Everything I know about development suggests that this kind of abstract analysis should be left to 11+.


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## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Sep 15, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> I don't understand the second question either, and ignore Pickman's.  You're NOT the teacher, so it's irrelevant whether you're making mistakes yourself.  Well, not irrelevant, but less relevant than the teacher's mistakes.



Indeed, I don't think my grammatical errors will ever be worthy of their own thread. I make plenty daily, mainly spelling errors due to dyslexia (thank goodness for that spell detect red line thingy). When I teach music I don't mind parents not knowing what notes are named, however I would be a bit peeved if I were a parent and found out that my child's music teacher was teaching the kids C was A.


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## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Sep 15, 2013)

gentlegreen said:


> "durch für gegen ohne um"
> 
> I wouldn't know what a preposition was had I not studied German for O level.
> (I passed German, but failed English



I too had no idea what particles or articles etc were in English until I started learning Japanese, and was supposed to translate them.


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## silverfish (Sep 15, 2013)

The second one reads like a translation


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## littlebabyjesus (Sep 15, 2013)

silverfish said:


> The second one reads like a translation


By babelfish.


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## silverfish (Sep 15, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> By babelfish.



exactly from Finnish


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## andysays (Sep 15, 2013)

ATOMIC SUPLEX said:


> I know you won't believe me but I spotted it as soon as I had posted the thread, being only too aware that a thread about grammar should be double checked for it.
> I could not figure how to change it at first glance but did not think it was that important. *When you made your comment I assumed (as I mentioned before) it was about something I had written in the body, and not some daft and pointless pedant trolling.*



You have encountered Pickman's model before, surely? I can understand and forgive apostrophe errors, but this is beyond me...


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## madamv (Sep 15, 2013)

Well AS  this sort of thing has annoyed me throughout my daughter's school life.  In year 5 it generally stopped, mostly the homework was written properly.  Largely because it was copied from the whiteboard by her, but it seemed they had upped their game.

I always corrected it and moaned.  All they did was apologise and said that it was just photocopied from the internet etc.....    Pedants will always be pedantic


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## gentlegreen (Sep 15, 2013)

Am I the only one who doesn't understand what the "setting" of a room means ?


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## Thora (Sep 15, 2013)

madamv said:


> Well AS  this sort of thing has annoyed me throughout my daughter's school life.  In year 5 it generally stopped, mostly the homework was written properly.  Largely because it was copied from the whiteboard by her, but it seemed they had upped their game.
> 
> I always corrected it and moaned.  All they did was apologise and said that it was just photocopied from the internet etc.....    Pedants will always be pedantic


If it's just photocopied from the internet, what's the point in them even doing it


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## silverfish (Sep 15, 2013)

gentlegreen said:


> Am I the only one who doesn't understand what the "setting" of a room means ?



its very clunky


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## Athos (Sep 15, 2013)

ATOMIC SUPLEX said:
			
		

> Wow.
> So you equate - The only two questions in a year wide (three classroom, six teacher) set of literacy homework, both being written wrong, (to the point of meaning something completely different), to a man missing an apostrophe on the internet?
> I think you have pointed to the wrong person who is being a dick on this particular thread.



It's just a couple of typos,  ffs.


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## Thora (Sep 15, 2013)

Athos said:


> It's just a couple of typos,  ffs.


One of them changes the meaning of the question.  If a 6 year old doesn't have parents who read/write English well, what chance do they have if even the teachers can't be arsed?


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## madamv (Sep 15, 2013)

I suspect its a teachers resource site.  I don't mind that so much as I mind it having mistakes.   We have even had a couple of papers that have no possible correct answer because the question is so ambiguous. 

The teachers always apologised though and were embarrassed.  I think they are really pushed for time sometimes and I have teachers as friends and I know how hard they work.


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## Thora (Sep 15, 2013)

madamv said:


> I suspect its a teachers resource site.  I don't mind that so much as I mind it having mistakes.   We have even had a couple of papers that have no possible correct answer because the question is so ambiguous.
> 
> The teachers always apologised though and were embarrassed.  I think they are really pushed for time sometimes and I have teachers as friends and I know how hard they work.


This is why homework in primary school is so ridiculous - if teachers just grab any old vaguely related thing off the internet to hand out, then what are the children really gaining from it?  If there isn't actually a reason to give young children homework then they shouldn't be doing just because that's the policy.


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## spanglechick (Sep 15, 2013)

Thora said:


> This is why homework in primary school is so ridiculous - if teachers just grab any old vaguely related thing off the internet to hand out, then what are the children really gaining from it?  If there isn't actually a reason to give young children homework then they shouldn't be doing just because that's the policy.


Schools set homework because parents complain if they don't. I absolutely promise you that teachers hate the whole business from beginning to end.  A bit of reading at home, and a weekly spellings list is all that's needed up to year six, and in many subjects, even further.


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## Thora (Sep 15, 2013)

Then it should at least be clearly optional with no sanctions for children who don't do it.


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## rioted (Sep 15, 2013)

Thora said:


> Then it should at least be clearly optional with no sanctions for children who don't do it.


That should apply to school itself.


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## Gromit (Sep 15, 2013)

Last week my mum said I couldn't have a pony and that Santa doesn't exist. The trauma has this week led into early alcohol dependency.


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## ash (Sep 15, 2013)

Citizen66 said:


> Daughter's grammar.


I refer you to the comment posted earlier:


Corax said:


> Quite.
> 
> I'm not expected to know what the appropriate dosage for a prescription drug is.  But I'd be a little pissed off if my GP got it wrong.
> 
> This is their _*job*_ ffs.


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## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Sep 15, 2013)

Athos said:


> It's just a couple of typos,  ffs.


So tell me, can you really not see that it is a couple of typos (FFS FFS) that a six year old that is supposed to be reading from to lean about literacy? Can you not see why that is more of a fundamental problem than grown adults reading a typo on the internet? Can you really not see why that is on a completely different level and not really comparable? It's not a couple of errors in a newspaper article, it's two errors in two one line questions set for _*literacy *_homework at school. 

There are apparently 68 languages spoken by children at my daughters school, not all of them their first. It's not always going to be easy for the parents to spot these errors and they could well end up confusing the child. The questions are not even written in in a particularly clear manner besides the errors.


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## zog (Sep 15, 2013)

ATOMIC SUPLEX said:


> _1. Describe the setting of two rooms in your house. Please *uses adjective* in your writing._




At the age of 6 I wouldn't have a clue what adjective meant


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## equationgirl (Sep 15, 2013)

ash said:


> I have seen my daughters grammer corrected incorrectly. I spoke to the teacher and it was the TA that had marked the work and he was pleased to get the feedback. At homework club this week she was told (by another TA) that it didn't matter if she put the X or Y axis first when plotting a graph, so 1.6 is the same as 6.1!!!   It's bloody annoying as they look up to the teachers and TA's and it takes a bit of persuading to explain why it's wrong.


If I had a child that was told that when plotting a graph I would be seriously unimpressed. No wonder children struggle with maths so much.

By the way, it's TAs not TA's - plural not possessive


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## Athos (Sep 15, 2013)

ATOMIC SUPLEX said:
			
		

> So tell me, can you really not see that it is a couple of typos (FFS FFS) that a six year old that is supposed to be reading from to lean about literacy? Can you not see why that is more of a fundamental problem than grown adults reading a typo on the internet? Can you really not see why that is on a completely different level and not really comparable? It's not a couple of errors in a newspaper article, it's two errors in two one line questions set for literacy homework at school.
> 
> There are apparently 68 languages spoken by children at my daughters school, not all of them their first. It's not always going to be easy for the parents to spot these errors and they could well end up confusing the child. The questions are not even written in in a particularly clear manner besides the errors.



I never claimed equivalence. But I do think you're overreacting.


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## equationgirl (Sep 15, 2013)

I don't think it's too much to ask that a school sends out homework which is accurate for the subject being taught.


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## weepiper (Sep 15, 2013)

spanglechick said:


> Schools set homework because parents complain if they don't. I absolutely promise you that teachers hate the whole business from beginning to end.  A bit of reading at home, and a weekly spellings list is all that's needed up to year six, and in many subjects, even further.



Heads should be better at telling the parents who complain if they don't get lots of homework to fuck off IMO. It seems everyone involved hates it except for a few mouthy pushy middle class parents who get their own way at everyone's expense. I've complained about homework every parents' evening for 5 years and we're still getting way too much, in fact if anything it's getting worse. My seven year old gets reading twice a week (with a set of questions to answer about the reading too) spelling words to copy out + spelling activity to be done 3 nights, a maths sheet and sometimes another activity sheet. It's bloody ridiculous and it's like pulling teeth to get him to do it, and frankly I think he'd be better off playing outside, building lego or playing Minecraft, he's been 'good' at school all day FFS give the kid some down time.


----------



## wayward bob (Sep 15, 2013)

yet another reason i love our school. kid2's homework so far (age 6) is for the whole term, they have shoeboxes to fill with whatever they like on their theme of fairytales. she's got a load stuffed in hers already cos she loves it. little drawings and models (her rapunzel with enormous hair extensions is awesome ) and toys and shit. she's writing her own fairytale atm just cos she wants to. that's what i call good homework


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## gentlegreen (Sep 15, 2013)

Even without the grammar mistakes I still couldn't do this homework.

I have never encountered the expression "setting" in the context of a room.
Is this a term specific to interior design ?
Or is it regional ?


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## equationgirl (Sep 15, 2013)

gentlegreen said:


> Even without the grammar mistakes I still couldn't do this homework.
> 
> I have never encountered the expression "setting" in the context of a room.
> Is this a term specific to interior design ?
> Or is it regional ?


No idea - I think would struggle with this homework too.


----------



## Leafster (Sep 15, 2013)

gentlegreen said:


> Even without the grammar mistakes I still couldn't do this homework.
> 
> I have never encountered the expression "setting" in the context of a room.
> Is this a term specific to interior design ?
> Or is it regional ?


I have recently heard it used in the context of a room...by an estate agent when I was discussing how to make a house look good.

Is your daughter's school turning out estate agents AS? 

To answer the OP, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect homework questions on literacy to be free from typos and grammatically correct.


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## kittyP (Sep 15, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:
			
		

> I don't think children should be given homework at all at this age. It's a control thing - even outside school hours, the school is attempting to exert control over what the children do.



As a parent, are you allowed to tell the school that if you deem the homework to be too highly educational focused (like in the op) and not exploratory or play based, that for now at that age, that you will not be doing it?


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## weepiper (Sep 15, 2013)

kittyP said:


> As a parent, are you allowed to tell the school that if you deem the homework to be too highly educational focused (like in the op) and not exploratory or play based, that for now at that age, that you will not be doing it?



I have tried this approach in the past; all that happens IME is that the child gets guilt-tripped for not having done it


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## emanymton (Sep 15, 2013)

madamv said:


> Well AS  this sort of thing has annoyed me throughout my daughter's school life.  In year 5 it generally stopped, mostly the homework was written properly.  Largely because it was copied from the whiteboard by her, but it seemed they had upped their game.
> 
> I always corrected it and moaned.  All they did was apologise and said that it was just photocopied from the internet etc.....    Pedants will always be pedantic


How do you photocopy from the internet? Slap your monitor face down on the copier? 

Anyway, this is homework for a six your old? I'd struggle with it now.


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## kittyP (Sep 15, 2013)

weepiper said:
			
		

> I have tried this approach in the past; all that happens IME is that the child gets guilt-tripped for not having done it



That's fucking awful 

What kinda professional would guilt trip a kid?


----------



## silverfish (Sep 15, 2013)

zog said:


> At the age of 6 I wouldn't have a clue what adjective meant



I'm not sure I do now


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## Poot (Sep 15, 2013)

If there was an error in her numeracy homework, I'm sure you'd point it out to the teacher.


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## Citizen66 (Sep 15, 2013)

I think downloading homework with mistakes in makes it worse!


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## fishfinger (Sep 15, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Regardless of the grammatical correctness of the questions, these are absolutely absurd things to ask a six-year-old. They should still be learning first and foremost through play at this age.



Learning grammar isn't play?!?!?!? 

You make the baby rebus cry


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## zog (Sep 15, 2013)

silverfish said:


> I'm not sure I do now



sadly, this is the truth for me as well


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## nagapie (Sep 15, 2013)

gentlegreen said:


> Am I the only one who doesn't understand what the "setting" of a room means ?



It's literary. Although a bit poorly used in that particular sentence. 'Describe the room' should have been more than enough. In fact, it's redundant in that sentence.


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## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Sep 15, 2013)

Silas Loom said:


> I would trust him to teach them the  ukelele.


Which is a shame because I do.


Athos said:


> There's a grammatical error in the title of this thread. Physician heal thyself.





Athos said:


> I never claimed equivalence. But I do think you're overreacting.


Yes well maybe it was more pickmans, but you can't see why it would be irritating? It's a sheet with two questions that should have been looked at by at least six teachers, that's pretty weak. 
I am over reacting by starting a thread? I'll draw a red ring around it and hope they pay attention but I'm not going to burn the school down. 
If it starts happening a lot I might bring it up at school.


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## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Sep 15, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> No idea - I think would struggle with this homework too.


I am not entirely sure myself exactly what they want from here here. 
2, _First daddy pours the milk and then he gives it to me_. Are they expecting us to be making cocktails?


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## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Sep 15, 2013)

Poot said:


> If there was an error in her numeracy homework, I'm sure you'd point it out to the teacher.


There was last year. I can't remember exactly what it was now though.


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## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Sep 15, 2013)

nagapie said:


> It's literary. Although a bit poorly used in that particular sentence. 'Describe the room' should have been more than enough. In fact, it's redundant in that sentence.


Yes, it really confuses the issue. I kind of makes you want to somehow map out exactly where everything is, which is way beyond a six year old.


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## Orang Utan (Sep 15, 2013)

AS's daughter's school is not the only one that has illiterate teachers:


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## gentlegreen (Sep 15, 2013)

Sports teacher though.


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## white rabbit (Sep 16, 2013)

It's shoddy to say the least.

How do you describe something without using adjectives?


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## DaveCinzano (Sep 16, 2013)

Orang Utan said:


> AS's daughter's school is not the only one that has illiterate teachers:



Must cut slack to PE teacher who clearly dictated poster text via telegram from sinking ship stop HENCE SHOUTING STOP MANY LOUD VOICES STOP THE SCREAMING STOP THE HORROR THE HORROR STOP DON'T EVEN LIKE KIDS


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## DaveCinzano (Sep 16, 2013)

white rabbit said:


> It's shoddy to say the least.
> 
> How do you describe something without using adjectives?



Use German.


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## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Sep 16, 2013)

white rabbit said:


> It's shoddy to say the least.
> 
> How do you describe something without using adjectives?



It is a room, there is a chair, there is a window on one side, there is a picture of a woman on the opposite side. It's size is  five meters by five meters, etc etc. Probably what a six year old would write if not told to insert adjectives. I might have added to the homework in brackets that adjectives were 'describing words', so that every time they see the word, the children are reminded of it's meaning.


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## mwgdrwg (Sep 16, 2013)

Get a red pen and circle the mistakes, write "must do better" at the bottom. In red.


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## Lemon Eddy (Sep 16, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> If I had a child that was told that when plotting a graph I would be seriously unimpressed. No wonder children struggle with maths so much.



My daughter is now in year 3 (just turned 8).  She gets no numeracy homework at all.  And I'm still not clear on just why Maths had to be renamed numeracy in the first place.


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## equationgirl (Sep 16, 2013)

Lemon Eddy said:


> My daughter is now in year 3 (just turned 8).  She gets no numeracy homework at all.  And I'm still not clear on just why Maths had to be renamed numeracy in the first place.


people are scared of the word maths. Numeracy is less scary.

My 6 year old nephew gets one worksheet of 10 questions every week.


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## equationgirl (Sep 16, 2013)

mwgdrwg said:


> Get a red pen and circle the mistakes, write "must do better" at the bottom. In red.


With SEE ME underneath


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## Leafster (Sep 16, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> *people are scared of the word maths. Numeracy is less scary.*
> 
> My 6 year old nephew gets one worksheet of 10 questions every week.


It's odd that people are scared of the word "maths" when the word "numeracy" has more syllables and therefore seems more scary to me but then maybe I'm just a maths person.  

I suspect they call it numeracy as it's closer to what we would have called arithmetic and that the kids won't be learning about other areas of mathematics until they get much older.


----------



## equationgirl (Sep 16, 2013)

Leafster said:


> It's odd that people are scared of the word "maths" when the word "numeracy" has more syllables and therefore seems more scary to me but then maybe I'm just a maths person.
> 
> I suspect they call it numeracy as it's closer to what we would have called arithmetic and that the kids won't be learning about other areas of mathematics until they get much older.


Except no-one can do any maths without the four foundation stones of addition, subtraction, division and multiplication. So you need to get those up and running first before even thinking about anything else.


----------



## Orang Utan (Sep 16, 2013)

Isn't just a matter of accuracy?
They don't teach much actual maths at primary school, do they?


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## andysays (Sep 16, 2013)

Leafster said:


> It's odd that people are scared of the word "maths" when the word "numeracy" has more syllables and therefore seems more scary to me but then maybe I'm just a maths person.
> 
> I suspect they call it numeracy as it's closer to what we would have called arithmetic and that the kids won't be learning about other areas of mathematics until they get much older.



I suspect they call it numeracy because it's easier to talk about measuring numeracy than measuring how good you are at maths, and as we all know, it's now officially all about the measuring and testing.



equationgirl said:


> Except no-one can do any maths without the four foundation stones of addition, subtraction, division and multiplication. So you need to get those up and running first before even thinking about anything else.



Agreed. At the stage we're talking about, I would have thought the word "sums" would cover it adequetely.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 16, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> Except no-one can do any maths without the four foundation stones of addition, subtraction, division and multiplication. So you need to get those up and running first before even thinking about anything else.


Or, _exactly what Leafster said_.


----------



## emanymton (Sep 16, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> people are scared of the word maths. Numeracy is less scary.
> 
> My 6 year old nephew gets one worksheet of 10 questions every week.


Speaking as a dyslexic, Maths is a much less scary word than numeracy.


----------



## Leafster (Sep 16, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> Except no-one can do any maths without the four foundation stones of addition, subtraction, division and multiplication. So you need to get those up and running first before even thinking about anything else.


I definitely agree with that.  All I was suggesting was that the basic numeracy skills you listed are a very small (but vital) subset of mathematics and perhaps the people responsible for naming the areas of learning at that age thought a more specific term would be more appropriate. Although, I don't agree with their decision to call it numeracy. I'd rather it was called maths!


----------



## equationgirl (Sep 16, 2013)

Leafster said:


> I definitely agree with that.  All I was suggesting was that the basic numeracy skills you listed are a very small (but vital) subset of mathematics and perhaps the people responsible for naming the areas of learning at that age thought a more specific term would be more appropriate. Although, I don't agree with their decision to call it numeracy. I'd rather it was called maths!


Me too - speaking as another maths person!


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## Lemon Eddy (Sep 16, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> Except no-one can do any maths without the four foundation stones of addition, subtraction, division and multiplication. So you need to get those up and running first before even thinking about anything else.



At the risk of attracting condemnation for being a pushy middle class parent, I was so unimpressed with the way maths is now taught at primary school that we signed sprogger up for a maths club.  In a year she went from being particularly defeatist about her ability to do maths to feeling happy and confident about the subject.


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## equationgirl (Sep 16, 2013)

Lemon Eddy said:


> At the risk of attracting condemnation for being a pushy middle class parent, I was so unimpressed with the way maths is now taught at primary school that we signed sprogger up for a maths club.  In a year she went from being particularly defeatist about her ability to do maths to feeling happy and confident about the subject.


Well she clearly enjoys it by the sounds of things


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## kittyP (Sep 16, 2013)

Orang Utan said:


> Isn't just a matter of accuracy?
> They don't teach much actual maths at primary school, do they?



I think this is the point. 

It's still called maths in secondary school isn't it?


----------



## kittyP (Sep 16, 2013)

andysays said:


> I suspect they call it numeracy because it's easier to talk about measuring numeracy than measuring how good you are at maths, and as we all know, it's now officially all about the measuring and testing.
> 
> 
> 
> Agreed. At the stage we're talking about, I would have thought the word "sums" would cover it adequetely.



No coz lots of it isn't sums, it's graphs and data collecting etc.


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## Lemon Eddy (Sep 16, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> Well she clearly enjoys it by the sounds of things



Enjoys is probably a stretch   She's gone from being terrified of the topic though, with that negativity leading to lots of mistakes, to being capable and confident in it.


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## andysays (Sep 16, 2013)

kittyP said:


> No coz lots of it isn't sums, it's graphs and data collecting etc.



I thought we were talking about six year olds.

I can't remember for absolutely certain what my daughter was doing at that age, but I'm pretty sure it was all about sums and times tables. Obviously they go on to do graphs and data collecting and other things beyond that later, by which time it becomes maths (the term "numeracy" doesn't cover all those other things either)


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## kittyP (Sep 16, 2013)

andysays said:


> I thought we were talking about six year olds.
> 
> I can't remember for absolutely certain what my daughter was doing at that age, but I'm pretty sure it was all about sums and times tables. Obviously they go on to do graphs and data collecting and other things beyond that later, by which time it becomes maths (the term "numeracy" doesn't cover all those other things either)



Data collecting can be as simple as putting all the blue cars in one pot and red cars in a another, counting them and they writing the numbers in a table. 

Or asking your class mates what are their favorite whatevers are, getting them to stand together in groups of liking things and then count the people.


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## clicker (Sep 16, 2013)

And while we're at it... what kind of inane cruelty is giving homework during holidays? They have worked hard all term, the 6 weeks summer holiday is not the time for a sodding project on the murghal empire.


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## Orang Utan (Sep 16, 2013)

kittyP said:


> I think this is the point.
> 
> It's still called maths in secondary school isn't it?


Yes


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## kittyP (Sep 16, 2013)

kittyP said:


> Data collecting can be as simple as putting all the blue cars in one pot and red cars in a another, counting them and they writing the numbers in a table.



And then you can physically make a graph using the red and blue cars.
The teacher would give a pre draw axis and then they physically line the red cars up and then blue cars to make the graph.
They you say "which one has more" or something. It helps give them a physical representation of the what an amount actually is and what more and less is, rather than just a written number which is more abstract.

I reckon that is about 6 year old level.


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## andysays (Sep 16, 2013)

kittyP said:


> Data collecting can be as simple as putting all the blue cars in one pot and red cars in a another, counting them and they writing the numbers in a table.
> 
> Or asking your class mates what are their favorite whatevers are, getting them to stand together in groups of liking things and then count the people.



Sure, I appreciate that it doesn't need to be super-complex. I'm just surprised that that six year olds are doing that already, but maybe things have changed in the 12 years since my daughter was that age or the 40+ years since I was, or maybe I'm misremembering.

I doubt Martha has saved her homework from way back then, so I can't check, but as she's now doing Maths A level, whatever she was taught at the age obviously laid the right foundation!


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## kittyP (Sep 16, 2013)

andysays said:
			
		

> Sure, I appreciate that it doesn't need to be super-complex. I'm just surprised that that six year olds are doing that already, but maybe things have changed in the 12 years since my daughter was that age or the 40+ years since I was, or maybe I'm misremembering.
> 
> I doubt Martha has saved her homework from way back then, so I can't check, but as she's now doing Maths A level, whatever she was taught at the age obviously laid the right foundation!



I worked in a secondary special needs school recently and we were often working at pre primary level and we would be doing similar to what I described so I reckon six year olds in mainstream are probably around that level. 
Numeracy is broken down in to different sub subjects of which sums are only one.

They change the focus sometimes even within the year so things are very different to when I first started working at that school 11 years ago.


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## Frumious B. (Sep 16, 2013)

The second question is so monstrous that it makes me wonder whether the teacher can speak English. AS, have you met the teacher? I don't understand how anyone hired as a teacher can produce such drivel.  Inflicting it on a class of 6 year olds is verging on criminal negligence.


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## equationgirl (Sep 17, 2013)

kittyP said:


> And then you can physically make a graph using the red and blue cars.
> The teacher would give a pre draw axis and then they physically line the red cars up and then blue cars to make the graph.
> They you say "which one has more" or something. It helps give them a physical representation of the what an amount actually is and what more and less is, rather than just a written number which is more abstract.
> 
> I reckon that is about 6 year old level.


And learning what different shapes look like - triangle, square etc. learning about area and length, measuring different things. Weight too, by measuring different things like lentils and beans into containers.


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## Puddy_Tat (Sep 17, 2013)

wayward bob said:


> wtf is a time connective?



^ that


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## gentlegreen (Sep 17, 2013)

Has anyone sent this to Gove yet ?


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## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Sep 17, 2013)

I mentioned it in passing to a couple of other parents today but nobody else seems to have even noticed.


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## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Sep 17, 2013)

Puddy_Tat said:


> ^ that


First, then, next etc. 
First I put on my socks then my shoes, next I tie my shoes before finally leaving for work.


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## Puddy_Tat (Sep 17, 2013)

ATOMIC SUPLEX said:


> First, then, next etc.
> First I put on my socks then my shoes, next I tie my shoes before finally leaving for work.



I see.

I probably understood the concept when I was 6, but not heard it called that before.


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## friedaweed (Sep 17, 2013)

This is what happens when you send your kids to private school.


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## friedaweed (Sep 18, 2013)

zog said:


> At the age of 6 I wouldn't have a clue what adjective meant


Innit. You'd have been bullied in my school for understanding that sort of thing

((((((London's posh kids)))))))


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## Riklet (Sep 19, 2013)

it's ridiculous homework to be setting a 6 year old, regardless of the mistakes.

god, we were still learning to write the animal letters joined up at 6 iirc.  don't think I got hardly any homework.  I wanted to read books at home anyway...


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## Greebo (Sep 19, 2013)

Riklet said:


> it's ridiculous homework to be setting a 6 year old, regardless of the mistakes.
> 
> god, we were still learning to write the animal letters joined up at 6 iirc.  don't think I got hardly any homework.  I wanted to read books at home anyway...


That's part of the point - almost anything you do with a child of that age is educational in one way or another.  IMHO they don't need homework as much as encouragement and stimuli.


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## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Sep 19, 2013)

I really don't think the homework is a big deal. It gives me an idea of what they are working on in school. Out side of the homework I can then just throw in a few 'sums' or whatever that crop up in natural life without worrying that I am going to fast or whatever. 
Sometimes it can be frustrating if I don't have the time to go through the homework with my daughter (If I am working in town I won't be back until she is in bed, and I can be very busy at the weekend). 
She can get a bit stuck on math and is too quick to scatter gun guess everything. The math homework this week was a bit tricky for her at first, but at least I got an idea of what level she should be at and what she should be able to achieve. 
As best as I can, I always try to make it all into a bit of a fun game, some sort of adventure project. But as mentioned before, this is even more time consuming. I can see this being a real problem for a single working parent.


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## purenarcotic (Sep 19, 2013)

What do mean what level she 'should' be at?  According to whom?

I hate this, how at age six children are already being pushed towards things they 'should' or 'shouldn't' be.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Sep 19, 2013)

purenarcotic said:


> What do mean what level she 'should' be at?  According to whom?
> 
> I hate this, how at age six children are already being pushed towards things they 'should' or 'shouldn't' be.


Studies have been done into this. Basically, different children develop different abilities at different times. We don't all acquire the same things in the same order. But kids are being marked, assessed and ranked at earlier and earlier ages. It's bonkers.


----------



## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Sep 19, 2013)

purenarcotic said:


> What do mean what level she 'should' be at?  According to whom?
> 
> I hate this, how at age six children are already being pushed towards things they 'should' or 'shouldn't' be.


Of for goodness sake, why all the outrage? 
The level they are currently working at on the school curriculum. For better or worse, that it what they are working on in school  at the movement. I like to know how it's going, go over it with my daughter and judge for myself. Maybe I should have said 'expected to be at'. Either way, I would rather be involved and receive that information than not know anything at all. 

Yes all kids develop at different rates, and I won't push too hard if something is a struggle, she will pick it up in time. Yes being marked and assessed at such a young age is stupid, but I am not sticking my head in the sand and just telling her to go and play in the fields until she is ten. 


On thing that did recently annoy me though. These phonics. My daughter started to learn to read before school, and while at school we read together, and I taught her the only way I knew how (I never did phonics and had no idea about them). The first I really heard about these phonics was when I was told that she might fail her phonics test last year. Some government test or something that tests the school and the kids (I get the impression the kids that don't pass get put in a different group and are tested again the following year). 
One of the problems I had with this was that my daughter can read fine, she knows the sounds in the words etc but she was not 100% on all the phonics sounds. So she was being tested on sounds that make up words, might fail and be put into a slower reading group, despite actually being able to read better than most of the other kids.  It was a test for the school and the kids that completely bypassed any practical use. What if she was perfect with phonics but  froze during tests with strangers? These kids were 5 and 6. If Gove gets his way I assume there will be way more of this idiocy.


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## Thora (Sep 19, 2013)

ATOMIC SUPLEX said:


> On thing that did recently annoy me though. These phonics. My daughter started to learn to read before school, and while at school we read together, and I taught her the only way I knew how (I never did phonics and had no idea about them). The first I really heard about these phonics was when I was told that she might fail her phonics test last year. Some government test or something that tests the school and the kids (I get the impression the kids that don't pass get put in a different group and are tested again the following year).
> One of the problems I had with this was that my daughter can read fine, she knows the sounds in the words etc but she was not 100% on all the phonics sounds. So she was being tested on sounds that make up words, might fail and be put into a slower reading group, despite actually being able to read better than most of the other kids.  It was a test for the school and the kids that completely bypassed any practical use. What if she was perfect with phonics but  froze during tests with strangers? These kids were 5 and 6. If Gove gets his way I assume there will be way more of this idiocy.


Having a secure base in phonics is really important for children though, as it is how they can tackle new words.  The school should be checking her phonic knowledge anyway and filling in the gaps on the sounds she is not secure on, certainly by 6.  A good teacher would have done this even without the phonics check.  The check is done in class time with her class teacher so no strangers - children shouldn't even know they are being tested really.


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## Thora (Sep 19, 2013)

Anyway, she wouldn't be put in a slower reading group - she'd be put in a phonics group with other children with the same level of phonics knowledge as her so they could catch up on the sounds they didn't know.


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## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Sep 19, 2013)

Thora said:


> Having a secure base in phonics is really important for children though, as it is how they can tackle new words.  The school should be checking her phonic knowledge anyway and filling in the gaps on the sounds she is not secure on, certainly by 6.  A good teacher would have done this even without the phonics check.  The check is done in class time with her class teacher so no strangers - children shouldn't even know they are being tested really.



Maybe, but my point was that they were judging school reading results on this, my understanding was not that they would put her in a different phonics group, but a different reading group. 
They all seemed a bit evasive of my questioning on the subject and it was more than a little vague. 
. . . and yes they were checking her phonics knowledge etc, that's why they contacted me. 
Anyway she passed. 

Also, I'm not against phonics in general, but I didn't do it and I can read, and there is another school near by that doesn't use phonics at all. Also, when I had a look at the phonics, there does seem to be a heck of a lot of times when they just don't work. My daughter was fine just getting on with the reading, and making up the relationships between letters as we went.


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## Thora (Sep 19, 2013)

What do you mean by "they just don't work" 

You didn't learn using an explicit phonics method, but you will have intuitively worked out the phonics code for yourself.  The problem comes for children who are taught to memorise words but then can't work out the phonics code intuitively, so struggle whenever they come across new words - some children who appear to be strong readers at first have this problem.  Phonics isn't the same as reading or reading ability - it's a skill taught to enable children to decode the sounds in words.

The school reading results aren't judged through the phonics check, their phonics teaching is what is being checked.  A school that doesn't teach phonics at all or well will be caught out as many of their children won't be able to sound out new words.


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## purenarcotic (Sep 19, 2013)

I think he means that there are always irregularities.  There are some words which we'll have to learn by recognition and memorisation as opposed to being able to deduce from patterns of sounds.

But I agree that on the whole it's a very sound method of teaching to read.


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## gentlegreen (Sep 19, 2013)

Is your daughter bilingual AS ?


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## Thora (Sep 19, 2013)

purenarcotic said:


> I think he means that there are always irregularities.  There are some words which we'll have to learn by recognition and memorisation as opposed to being able to deduce from patterns of sounds.
> 
> But I agree that on the whole it's a very sound method of teaching to read.


You mean like completely unique pronunciations? - eg. St. John = Sinjun.  Or yacht.


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## purenarcotic (Sep 19, 2013)

Thora said:


> You mean like completely unique pronunciations? - eg. St. John = Sinjun.  Or yacht.



Yes. But as I said, I think it's a very sound method overall.


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## Orang Utan (Sep 19, 2013)

Phonics does seem a really weird way to teach people to read. Seems counter-intuitive.
But I say that from the perspective of someone who wasn't taught that way and found reading 'natural' and easy.


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## Thora (Sep 19, 2013)

Why is it counter-intuitive?  I think phonics has always been the way people have been taught to read, except for a brief time when word memorisation/look and say was fashionable.  The only difference now is that schools have to take a pure phonics approach rather than mixed methods (phonics with a bit of word memorisation and guessing from pictures).  When I learned to read in about 1990 it was definitely mixed methods - mostly sounding out but with a bit of sight words and guessing encouraged.


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## Orang Utan (Sep 19, 2013)

I don't know. I'm only talking about it from my perspective. It's not how you read is it? You see the whole word, not bits of it.
I don't think I was actually taught to read though. It just happened. This is not usual, I admit.


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## Thora (Sep 19, 2013)

Orang Utan said:


> I don't know. I'm only talking about it from my perspective. It's not how you read is it? You see the whole word, not bits of it.
> I don't think I was actually taught to read though. It just happened. This is not usual, I admit.


Unless you see a new word.  How else can you decode a new word?  Every word is new when children are first learning - as they begin to read fluently they don't sound out every word anymore, but it's important for accuracy that they are reading the whole word not just looking at the beginning and assuming/guessing.


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## Sweet FA (Sep 19, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> everyone knows teachers don't teach so much any more, that they teach to the test rather than educate.


8/10 


Orang Utan said:


> They don't teach much actual maths at primary school, do they?


Naaaaaah 


andysays said:


> I thought we were talking about six year olds...obviously they go on to do graphs and data collecting and other things beyond that later


Data collection, pictograms etc start in Early Years/Year 1.


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## purenarcotic (Sep 19, 2013)

Orang Utan said:


> I don't know. I'm only talking about it from my perspective. It's not how you read is it? You see the whole word, not bits of it.
> I don't think I was actually taught to read though. It just happened. This is not usual, I admit.



Of course you don't read like that once you know how to, but they're learning.  It's a process that develops.


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## Orang Utan (Sep 19, 2013)

Sweet FA said:


> 8/10
> 
> Naaaaaah
> 
> Data collection, pictograms etc start in Early Years/Year 1.


Why the facepalm?
I got told on here recently that the maths I did at school was mostly arithmetic and that maths was more advanced than arithmetic. Though I'm still not sure what actual maths is. Algebra maybe - all that x = y/z stuff
I don't think they teach much more than +*/- at primary school.


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## friedaweed (Sep 19, 2013)

ATOMIC SUPLEX said:


> One thing that did recently annoy me though.


FIFY See me after class 

You should have a boy next  Then tell me doing homework is hard. 

Anyway as a single parent now on 3rd child spread over 22 years of parenthood who's just got on with it and his kids have turned out just fine and performed way beyond their expected capabilities, apart from the eldest who's wasted his intelligence on pursuing a career in the music industry, I can honestly say.....you need to chill FFS and trust her teachers or put her in private school where they will listen to your every whim so long as you're paying


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## Orang Utan (Sep 19, 2013)

purenarcotic said:


> Of course you don't read like that once you know how to, but they're learning.  It's a process that develops.


I wish I could remember properly but I'm sure my school taught it more from a whole language perspective. But I'm sure even that approach most start with a little sounding out.


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## Sweet FA (Sep 19, 2013)

Orang Utan said:


> Why the facepalm?
> I got told on here recently that the maths I did at school was mostly arithmetic and that maths was more advanced than arithmetic. Though I'm still not sure what actual maths is. Algebra maybe - all that x = y/z stuff
> I don't think they teach much more than +*/- at primary school.


The facepalm was because it was a stupid thing to say 

Here's the link to the old Maths Framework. Fill your boots.


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## Orang Utan (Sep 19, 2013)

Sweet FA said:


> The facepalm was because it was a stupid thing to say
> 
> Here's the link to the old Maths Framework. Fill your boots.


Not stupid. Ignorant maybe.
Eta: I'm not reading that, so will have to stay ignorant.


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## Sweet FA (Sep 19, 2013)

Orang Utan said:


> I'm not reading that, so will have to stay ignorant.


OK, perhaps best you stay off threads re: current primary maths education then eh?


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## Orang Utan (Sep 19, 2013)

Sweet FA said:


> OK, perhaps best you stay off threads re: current primary maths education then eh?


This thread is about literacy initially


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## andysays (Sep 19, 2013)

Sweet FA said:


> ...Data collection, pictograms etc start in Early Years/Year 1.



OK, you must have more recent experience than me.

Saying "it wasn't like that in my daughter's day" makes me feel old as fuck, BTW, so thanks for that


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## Sweet FA (Sep 19, 2013)

Orang Utan said:


> This thread is about literacy initially


Enough with your so called _facts _


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## Thora (Sep 19, 2013)

Orang Utan said:


> I wish I could remember properly but I'm sure my school taught it more from a whole language perspective. But I'm sure even that approach most start with a little sounding out.


Whole word/look and say method was popular from about the 60s onwards - Dick and Jane books and lots of repetition so children would memorise the words.  Most children, including you probably, would deduce that letter combinations = sounds - so you'd memorise the word "elephant" and then when you saw the word "phobia" you'd remember that the "ph" in elephant made an "f" sound.  Some children would only memorise whole words though, and not break them down into parts, which obviously is a problem when you reach the limit of your memory.  So now in schools children are explicity taught the sounds and letter combinations in a systematic way, so right at the beginning of learning to read are taught that the "f" sound can be represented as f/ph/ff/ffe/gh.


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## kittyP (Sep 19, 2013)

Sweet FA said:


> OK, perhaps best you stay off threads re: current primary maths education then eh?



I may be wrong but I think when OU said that there is not much "maths" in primary he was explaining why it is called "numeracy". That "numeracy" kinda covers different things that the "maths" you do in secondary school.


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## Sweet FA (Sep 19, 2013)

kittyP said:


> I may be wrong but I think when OU said that there is not much "maths" in primary he was explaining why it is called "numeracy". That "numeracy" kinda covers different things that the "maths" you do in secondary school.


And hot on the heels of Orang Utan and his _facts _comes kittyP with her _reasonableness_ and _interpretation _


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## kittyP (Sep 19, 2013)

Sweet FA said:


> And hot on the heels of Orang Utan and his _facts _comes kittyP with her _reasonableness_ and _interpretation _


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## madamv (Sep 19, 2013)

I was taught using ITA.   Was anyone else?  I think it was precursor to phonics?


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## goldenecitrone (Sep 20, 2013)

kittyP said:


> I may be wrong but I think when OU said that there is not much "maths" in primary he was explaining why it is called "numeracy". That "numeracy" kinda covers different things that the "maths" you do in secondary school.



There is an overlap.


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## barney_pig (Sep 20, 2013)

madamv said:


> I was taught using ITA.   Was anyone else?  I think it was precursor to phonics?


I was also 'taught' using ITA, I think it was a precursor to illiteracy.


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## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Sep 20, 2013)

Thora said:


> What do you mean by "they just don't work" .


I mean that there seems to be many occasions in words where the phonics sounds don't actually make their phonics sounds. Just as in all the horrible little english rules that I learnt. I am not saying either way is better, but having to learn all the phonics sounds takes a long time and does still not set a 100% hard and fast solution / rule to reading / spelling. I am suggesting it's quite possible that just getting on with it instead of being side tracked might be just as good. 
Anyway, I am not really arguing and I am not a teacher. I have only one child that I have taught to read, I am sure they are all different and I am certainly not an authority on the subject.


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## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Sep 20, 2013)

purenarcotic said:


> I think he means that there are always irregularities.  There are some words which we'll have to learn by recognition and memorisation as opposed to being able to deduce from patterns of sounds..


Yes I think that is what I meant.


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## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Sep 20, 2013)

gentlegreen said:


> Is your daughter bilingual AS ?


Yes.


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## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Sep 20, 2013)

Thora said:


> You mean like completely unique pronunciations? - eg. St. John = Sinjun.  Or yacht.



I can't think of any off the top of my head but far simpler words than that. Ones we have come across in children's reading books or even (I think) some of the spelling tests she takes home (I think they deliberately slip in some exceptions to the rule (the tests are roughly phonics themed).


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## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Sep 20, 2013)

Orang Utan said:


> Phonics does seem a really weird way to teach people to read. Seems counter-intuitive.
> But I say that from the perspective of someone who wasn't taught that way and found reading 'natural' and easy.


This is probably my angle with all of this.  I don't remember learning to read but I am pretty sure there were no phonics (as I know them today) involved. 


Thora said:


> Why is it counter-intuitive?  I think phonics has always been the way people have been taught to read, except for a brief time when word memorisation/look and say was fashionable.  The only difference now is that schools have to take a pure phonics approach rather than mixed methods (phonics with a bit of word memorisation and guessing from pictures).  When I learned to read in about 1990 it was definitely mixed methods - mostly sounding out but with a bit of sight words and guessing encouraged.


I am pretty sure there wasn't word memorisation involved either. As best as I can recall it, I knew the basic sounds of each letter, I would then read a word, if it did not work one way I would try another. I do remember being told that if some letters followed others it would change the sound. I guess that was sort of phonics, but each letter would still be treated individually.


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## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Sep 20, 2013)

Thora said:


> Unless you see a new word.  How else can you decode a new word?


The way I just mentioned. I actually see my daughter doing it this way when we read (despite the phonics teaching). She reads the new word with the sounds she knows, if it sounds wrong or doesn't sound like a word she knows she very quickly changes the sounds until it fits. It's not as awkward as it sounds and she actually reads lightening quick, even with new words. 
I can see the problem with new and long words she has never heard before but I assume these will come at a time that she can deal with them. 
Also, I am not really all that bummed out by phonics (I know it sounds like it) and I do quite often (when she stumbles) say "break it down, use your phonics . . . what sound do those two letters make when they are together?"


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## purenarcotic (Sep 20, 2013)

No method is perfect, nobody is suggesting it is.  Phonics has a very high and good success rate.  Most methods don't account for parents teaching to read before school: speak to her teachers if it is annoying you so much.  I could read before school so just picked my own books and essentially did my own thing when it came to reading because my mum told them that's what was going to happen as I could already read 'this is pig, this is cow'.


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## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Sep 20, 2013)

friedaweed said:


> FIFY See me after class
> 
> You should have a boy next  Then tell me doing homework is hard.
> 
> Anyway as a single parent now on 3rd child spread over 22 years of parenthood who's just got on with it and his kids have turned out just fine and performed way beyond their expected capabilities, apart from the eldest who's wasted his intelligence on pursuing a career in the music industry, I can honestly say.....you need to chill FFS and trust her teachers or put her in private school where they will listen to your every whim so long as you're paying



That's a typo and I'm not a teacher setting homework. 
I don't need to 'chill', I didn't start a campaign to bring down the school, I started an internet thread.


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## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Sep 20, 2013)

purenarcotic said:


> speak to her teachers if it is annoying you so much.  I


I think you misunderstand. It's not annoying me anywhere near enough to speak to the teachers more than I briefly did at the time (when I was told to set extra daily phonics lessons at home).
It's just a discussion.


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## goldenecitrone (Sep 20, 2013)

ATOMIC SUPLEX said:


> As best as I can recall it, I knew the basic sounds of each letter, I would then read a word, if it did not work one way I would try another. I do remember being told that if some letters followed others it would change the sound. I guess that was sort of phonics, but each letter would still be treated individually.


 
Certainly sounds like phonics. There are about 40 sounds in English, but only 26 letters, so knowing the letters is not enough.


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## Orang Utan (Sep 20, 2013)

It's all coming back to me now - I didn't pay much attention in class as I was reading on my own, but there was stuff like kicking k, curly c and the magic e.


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## goldenecitrone (Sep 20, 2013)

Orang Utan said:


> It's all coming back to me now - I didn't pay much attention in class as I was reading on my own, but there was stuff like kicking k, curly c and the *magic e*.


 
Must have been happy Mondays at your school.


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## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Sep 20, 2013)

goldenecitrone said:


> Certainly sounds like phonics. There are about 40 sounds in English, but only 26 letters, so knowing the letters is not enough.



The phonics my daughter is taught is completely separate of words. 

I was only taught that a letter might change it's sound in certain situations, not that the all phonics sounds were essentially separate letters that could be joined to make words. A bit like Japanese, which in english would pretty much all be syllables - a, tsu, ba, ka, shi, etc.


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## goldenecitrone (Sep 20, 2013)

ATOMIC SUPLEX said:


> The phonics my daughter is taught is completely separate of words.
> 
> I was only taught that a letter might change it's sound in certain situations, not that the all phonics sounds were essentially separate letters that could be joined to make words. A bit like Japanese, which in english would pretty much all be syllables - a, tsu, ba, ka, shi, etc.




That video shows all the sounds in the context of the words they are used for.


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## Pickman's model (Sep 20, 2013)

goldenecitrone said:


> Must have been happy Mondays at your school.


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## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Sep 20, 2013)

goldenecitrone said:


> That video shows all the sounds in the context of the words they are used for.



Yes. Yes it does. 
But the kids are taught the phonics sounds. I posted the video because it showed that all the sounds were taught first, as a block. They have charts and stuff with all the sounds together (though having said that, I can't seem to find a definitive chart) . 

We were not taught the phonics sounds in a block like that. Just that a single letter would change a sound sometimes. It's not quite the same.


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## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Sep 20, 2013)

goldenecitrone said:


> Must have been happy Mondays at your school.


They actually did have Happy Mondays at my school.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Sep 20, 2013)

ATOMIC SUPLEX said:


> Well I certainly won't be...writing to the headmaster...


 
Probably for the best.


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## gentlegreen (Sep 20, 2013)

I'm amazed my primary reader from 1964-ish isn't online somewhere.

"Sam and Jock" rather than "Dick and Jane" - I'm sure I can remember "Sam has a nut in a bag"


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## Leafster (Sep 20, 2013)

gentlegreen said:


> I'm amazed my primary reader from 1964-ish isn't online somewhere.
> 
> "Sam and Jock" rather than "Dick and Jane" - I'm sure I can remember "Sam has a nut in a bag"



We had "Janet and John" when I was learning to read in the sixties. 








http://www.janetandjohn.com/


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## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Sep 20, 2013)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Probably for the best.


Hilarious.


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## Thora (Sep 20, 2013)

ATOMIC SUPLEX said:


> Yes. Yes it does.
> But the kids are taught the phonics sounds. I posted the video because it showed that all the sounds were taught first, as a block. They have charts and stuff with all the sounds together (though having said that, I can't seem to find a definitive chart) .
> 
> We were not taught the phonics sounds in a block like that. Just that a single letter would change a sound sometimes. It's not quite the same.


Yes, the way phonics is taught has changed - so children are systematically taught the sounds in English and the letter combinations used to make them.  They learn sounds in different phases, and in each phase they use phonics to decode words.


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## Maurice Picarda (Sep 20, 2013)

My daughter's maths homework asks her to "half" some numbers, which is depressing.


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## equationgirl (Sep 20, 2013)

purenarcotic said:


> No method is perfect, nobody is suggesting it is.  Phonics has a very high and good success rate.  Most methods don't account for parents teaching to read before school: speak to her teachers if it is annoying you so much.  I could read before school so just picked my own books and essentially did my own thing when it came to reading because my mum told them that's what was going to happen as I could already read 'this is pig, this is cow'.


Mine too


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## equationgirl (Sep 20, 2013)

Silas Loom said:


> My daughter's maths homework asks her to "half" some numbers, which is depressing.


Cross it out with 'divide by 2' written next to it in red, with 'could try harder. see me' written in big caps across the top.

Then send it back to the teacher


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## Maurice Picarda (Sep 20, 2013)

I would have been happy with "halve".


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## equationgirl (Sep 20, 2013)

Silas Loom said:


> I would have been happy with "halve".


Your standards are slipping


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## kittyP (Sep 20, 2013)

Leafster said:


> We had "Janet and John" when I was learning to read in the sixties.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



We had Peter and Jane


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## Maurice Picarda (Sep 20, 2013)

All four of them are preferable to Biff, Chip and Kipper.


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## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Sep 20, 2013)

Silas Loom said:


> All four of them are preferable to Biff, Chip and Kipper.


I assume they have such crazy names to teach the kids something or other. I am glad we seem to be over them. The magic key ones were a little better.


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## weltweit (Sep 20, 2013)

I was looking at someone's web page today. They claimed all sorts of complicated skills, which were totally let down because the page was littered with typos.


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## purenarcotic (Sep 20, 2013)

I had Bangers and Mash.  They were bloody brilliant.  Great illustrations, hilarious stories, proper good stuff. 

I have kept all of them they were that good.


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## weepiper (Sep 20, 2013)

I don't mind Biff Chip and Kipper. My kids generally enjoy(ed) them although apparently they use a fairly limited set of vocabulary so don't teach them much past a certain level (middle boy got taken off them and onto 'chapter books' in his second year of school because his teacher could see him coasting on the ORT ones, to his annoyance because he liked the stories and the chapter books they gave him were boring)


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## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Sep 20, 2013)

weepiper said:


> I don't mind Biff Chip and Kipper. My kids generally enjoy(ed) them although apparently they use a fairly limited set of vocabulary so don't teach them much past a certain level (middle boy got taken off them and onto 'chapter books' in his second year of school because his teacher could see him coasting on the ORT ones, to his annoyance because he liked the stories and the chapter books they gave him were boring)



My daughter showed no real interest in biff chip and kipper, I can't say I really felt for it either. 
Since year one (where it was nearly all BC&K) my daughter has suddenly improved massively. It's odd. I have been working long hours all through the summer so have not really been able to help my daughter with any reading. She told me there are no books at holiday club, and her mum will have only read japanese with her. However she zoomed through the first two books she got from her first day in year two, and every book since. 
I'm hoping her love of adventure time will coax her into some more grown up reading soon (we have just about all the books lying around). I like to think of reading and math, as a secret code / key that can unlock stories and adventures and solve all sorts of problems that can promote her independence.


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## friedaweed (Sep 21, 2013)

ATOMIC SUPLEX said:


> That's a typo and I'm not a teacher setting homework.
> I don't need to 'chill', I didn't start a campaign to bring down the school, *I started an internet thread.*


A thread asking for advice about what to do relating to your child. Here's my advice. Chill and have a couple more kids. If you don't like it that's fine but you asked for peoples opinions. I assume you wanted answers or was this just a thinly veiled "look at me aren't I a super duper parent" thread 

Your first example of 'literacy errors' is clearly a typo. It would appear even experts like your good self are capable of them.  People are human people make mistakes

Talk about sense of humor failure


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## bi0boy (Sep 21, 2013)

If it's good enough for the BBC News website it's good enough for a four year old.


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## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Sep 21, 2013)

friedaweed said:


> A thread asking for advice about what to do relating to your child. Here's my advice. Chill and have a couple more kids. If you don't like it that's fine but you asked for peoples opinions. I assume you wanted answers or was this just a thinly veiled "look at me aren't I a super duper parent" thread
> 
> Your first example of 'literacy errors' is clearly a typo. It would appear even experts like your good self are capable of them.  People are human people make mistakes
> 
> Talk about sense of humor failure



Fair enough, though I did decide on page one not to take any action other than some red pen. I don't think two typos in two lines of children's homework is exceptable, especially when it is 'literacy' homework. How hard is it to read back two lines before firing off homework for the whole school? How hard is it for six other teachers to read the homework they are setting before handing it out? The kids are supposed to be reading the questions themselves and I think it is confusing. I am not having a fit of rage, I just don't agree with your advice to 'chill' and have more kids. 
My point was that I don't need to 'chill' as I am not freaking out, I am just upset with the error. I didn't want to make a big deal about it but I did want to point it out (hence the thread). As mentioned, this was all resolved last week on page one. 
I am not a literacy expert and never claimed to be, in fact I suffer form dyslexia and would be lost without a spell check (and even then miss or substitute words all the time without being able to see my errors). 
Humans make errors, but I really don't think there should be two grammatical errors in the only two lines of literacy homework set for a six year old and copied hundreds of times. It's not worth going to the school board about, but I did want to point (my mild disappointment) without causing trouble or offence.


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## kittyP (Sep 21, 2013)

weepiper said:


> I don't mind Biff Chip and Kipper. My kids generally enjoy(ed) them although apparently they use a fairly limited set of vocabulary so don't teach them much past a certain level (middle boy got taken off them and onto 'chapter books' in his second year of school because his teacher could see him coasting on the ORT ones, to his annoyance because he liked the stories and the chapter books they gave him were boring)



There does seem to be a massive failing in the in-between books. 
At least the ORT books are short so its more obvious it's for reading practice. But then the first level of chapter books are (in the most part) soooooooooooooo soooooooooo boring. I swear it really puts kids off. 
There is nothing attention grabbing and they are just longer pieces of practice.


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