# Federation Coffee - disappointing!



## Mrs Redboots (Feb 11, 2011)

I know that Federation Coffee, in Brixton Village, is supposed to be really good, but I went there today for the first time, and was horribly disappointed.  I ordered a filter coffee - the man recommended the Mauretania blend, as I like my coffee black and unsweetened - and when it came it was so weak it could barely crawl out of the cup, and was lukewarm into the bargain!  My companion enjoyed his flat white, but said it was nothing special.

Has anybody else been disappointed by it, or was I just very unlucky?


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## TruXta (Feb 11, 2011)

Only been once, it was nice but not mind-blowing.


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## Ms T (Feb 11, 2011)

I'm constantly impressed by the lattes that I have.  Among the best I've had.  The one time I had filter coffee, I wasn't that impressed.  But I like a lot of milk in my coffee, and it was best drunk black with a little sugar according to the owner.


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## editor (Feb 11, 2011)

Mrs Redboots said:


> I know that Federation Coffee, in Brixton Village, is supposed to be really good, but I went there today for the first time, and was horribly disappointed.  I ordered a filter coffee - the man recommended the Mauretania blend, as I like my coffee black and unsweetened - and when it came it was so weak it could barely crawl out of the cup, and was lukewarm into the bargain!  My companion enjoyed his flat white, but said it was nothing special.
> 
> Has anybody else been disappointed by it, or was I just very unlucky?


I've only ever drunk their cappucinnos which are lovely but they're normally happy to serve you a different coffee if you're not happy. Did you tell them you didn't like the brew?


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## zenie (Feb 11, 2011)

Sounds like the people who go there like 'weaker' coffee (lattes, cappucinnos) I'd ask for an extra shot next time


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## twistedAM (Feb 11, 2011)

Filter coffee? Do people still serve/drink that stuff? It's weak and almost as wretched as cafetiere coffee.

I hate to use the barista term of Americano, but that's the way to go - couple of shots of espresso filled up with hot water.


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## Ms T (Feb 11, 2011)

zenie said:


> Sounds like the people who go there like 'weaker' coffee (lattes, cappucinnos) I'd ask for an extra shot next time


 
They're actually very strong for lattes.  Much, much stronger than Starbucks and the like.  With a lot less milk.


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## nat1 (Feb 11, 2011)

All of the coffee's I've ever had there have been delicious and certainly not weak!


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## leanderman (Feb 11, 2011)

nat1 said:


> All of the coffee's I've ever had there have been delicious and certainly not weak!


 
I am a fan of Federation flat whites. Put Starbucks to shame.

However, I have gone off Goodbench, after they told me and a friend we could not bring in prams, despite the shop having just two customers.

To add insult, my friend was not allowed to change a dry nappy in the corner.


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## ash (Feb 11, 2011)

Why did a dry nappie need changing???


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## Pip (Feb 11, 2011)

While we're at it can I say how FUCKING RIDICULOUS it is that Franco Manca refused to serve me a coffee with milk. I went there for the first time the other day and the waitress looked at me like it was the most stupid request she'd ever heard, and told me I could get a coffee from somewhere else and bring it in


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## uk benzo (Feb 11, 2011)

leanderman said:


> I am a fan of Federation flat whites. Put Starbucks to shame.
> 
> However, I have gone off Goodbench, after they told me and a friend we could not bring in prams, despite the shop having just two customers.
> 
> To add insult, my friend was not allowed to change a dry nappy in the corner.



I am surprised at this, as we always take our buggy into the Goodbench and always welcomed with a friendly smile by the proprietor.


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## twistedAM (Feb 11, 2011)

Pip said:


> While we're at it can I say how FUCKING RIDICULOUS it is that Franco Manca refused to serve me a coffee with milk. I went there for the first time the other day and the waitress looked at me like it was the most stupid request she'd ever heard, and told me I could get a coffee from somewhere else and bring it in



How authentic more like. 

I remember, must have 15 years ago, when Costa Coffees started to appear and I went in one with an Italian girl and she ordered two coffees. they came with milk and there was an hilarious argument about between her and the server about the default presentation for coffee. The Costa girl offered to make two proper ones but Italiana refused saying she wanted her money back because she didn't trust the coffee in a place that would poison it with milk.

Trouble was it was the only coffee place open in the area so we had to have a beer instead.


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## Pip (Feb 11, 2011)

Er. Nope. Definitely meant ridiculous.


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## gaijingirl (Feb 11, 2011)

uk benzo said:


> I am surprised at this, as we always take our buggy into the Goodbench and always welcomed with a friendly smile by the proprietor.


 
I'm slightly surprised as I used to go with a buggy on occasions with other mothers and there was no problem - this was Monday mornings though when no one else was around.   However, recently I've noticed it has become ridiculously packed with buggies and it's not really suitable for that - so maybe they've had enough - or maybe it was a weekend/busy time?  It's completely unsuitable once they start cruising/walking anyway due to the low tables/upside down tea crates.


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## Kanda (Feb 11, 2011)

leanderman said:


> I am a fan of Federation flat whites. Put Starbucks to shame.
> 
> However, I have gone off Goodbench, after they told me and a friend we could not bring in prams, despite the shop having just two customers.
> 
> To add insult, my friend was not allowed to change a dry nappy in the corner.



Federation was designed to prevent people clogging it with prams apparently. The guy that helped design it had numerous meetings about this.


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## ShiftyBagLady (Feb 11, 2011)

I've never been disappointed with the coffee but their tea is less than spectacular.


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## editor (Feb 11, 2011)

We went there a couple of weeks ago and there was about six prams wedged inside! Some were of the yummy mummy 4x4 variety too, so much space was a-hogged.


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## gaijingirl (Feb 11, 2011)

Brixton is tough with a pram though.... Federation is much better with a pram than Goodbench.  Also it's better positioned for leaving a pram outside.  Plus they have space inside for putting the pram where customers can't sit (where the big grinder used to be and under the shelves that host the coffee machines).


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## editor (Feb 11, 2011)

gaijingirl said:


> Brixton is tough with a pram though.... Federation is much better with a pram than Goodbench.  Also it's better positioned for leaving a pram outside.  Plus they have space inside for putting the pram where customers can't sit (where the big grinder used to be and under the shelves that host the coffee machines).


Yes - the space and tables outside make it much easier for Mums to park their prams and not clog up the interior. 

Some bloke with a laptop got firmly told off today when he unravelled a big cable across the floor. He was told to sit right next to the power socket on a window seat in no uncertain terms!


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## ShiftyBagLady (Feb 11, 2011)

Yeah, federation is better than most especially with the outsde seating (excluding the high benches which are not so great for families) and I don't mind prams in places. If people want to spend their disposable cash in local coffee shops and take their kids out for elevenses then they jolly well should and those who complain about children having the gall to take up space in public can fuck off. Says I.


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## Kanda (Feb 11, 2011)

ShiftyBagLady said:


> those who complain about children having the gall to take up space in public can fuck off. Says I.


 
Apparently it's gentrification.....


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## editor (Feb 11, 2011)

ShiftyBagLady said:


> Yeah, federation is better than most especially with the outsde seating (excluding the high benches which are not so great for families) and I don't mind prams in places. If people want to spend their disposable cash in local coffee shops and take their kids out for elevenses then they jolly well should and those who complain about children having the gall to take up space in public can fuck off. Says I.


I'd imagine places like Federation rely heavily on the baby brigade to bring in the daily dollars too.


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## Kanda (Feb 11, 2011)

editor said:


> 4x4 variety


 
A pram with 4 wheels???? Oh.my.god!!!


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## gaijingirl (Feb 11, 2011)

I think a lot of places are happy to see mums with babies on weekday mornings when it would ordinarily be quiet.  The trouble is when the weekend hits and "normal" people want to come and suddenly it's too crowded.  It's worse in winter.


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## Ms T (Feb 11, 2011)

Pip said:


> While we're at it can I say how FUCKING RIDICULOUS it is that Franco Manca refused to serve me a coffee with milk. I went there for the first time the other day and the waitress looked at me like it was the most stupid request she'd ever heard, and told me I could get a coffee from somewhere else and bring it in


 
Apparently you can't digest coffee with milk and dairy laden pizza at the same time, or some such nonsense.  You have to go to Wild Caper and get a latte to take away.  It is very Italian though - they think it's weird to drink coffee with milk after breakfast time.  I also suspect they don't want people lingering over coffee and taking up table space.


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## aussw9 (Feb 11, 2011)

Filter coffee is not an antipodean thing... can do amazing espresso based drinks

as for the the goodbench not allowing prams, i highly doubt that comment, been there many a time clogged up with prams...


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## Belushi (Feb 11, 2011)

I've always had decent coffee when I've visited Federation.


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## editor (Feb 12, 2011)

Ms T said:


> I also suspect they don't want people lingering over coffee and taking up table space.


I think that's probably more to do with it. It's not like the place is run by an all-Italian staff either.


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## nagapie (Feb 12, 2011)

Kanda said:


> Federation was designed to prevent people clogging it with prams apparently.



Oh, so designed the same as everywhere else then. We're pretty good at wedging them in despite the attempts of all of society, from coffee shop designers to your average person, trying to force us to stay home or go to children only places.

Anyway many people may be pleased to note that the baby boom of the last few years is predicted to end due to the Conservatives and their anti people policies. You will all soon be drinking your coffee and beer in peace.


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## Winot (Feb 12, 2011)

editor said:


> Yes - the space and tables outside make it much easier for Mums to park their prams and not clog up the interior.


 
Dads push prams too.


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## Pip (Feb 12, 2011)

editor said:


> I think that's probably more to do with it. It's not like the place is run by an all-Italian staff either.


 
Yeah, that makes more sense, but is still stupid. I've drunk many a (really good) milky coffee in Italy and never been ed at.


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## DJWrongspeed (Feb 12, 2011)

Just had a very good americano from there, not enough seats though so i had a take out. Seem to take pride in each cup made.


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## wemakeyousoundb (Feb 12, 2011)

Pip said:


> While we're at it can I say how FUCKING RIDICULOUS it is that Franco Manca refused to serve me a coffee with milk. I went there for the first time the other day and the waitress looked at me like it was the most stupid request she'd ever heard, and told me I could get a coffee from somewhere else and bring it in


 the flipside of "you don't have to buy anything you don't want to"?


Ms T said:


> ...  I also suspect they don't want people lingering over coffee and taking up table space.


 Possibly not applicable if you read the statement till the end.


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## uk benzo (Feb 12, 2011)

I took my kid in his buggy into The Goodbench. Nowt was said to me. Maybe it was a one off- or maybe The Goodbench people read this thread?


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## timmu (Feb 12, 2011)

I've only had coffee in Federation once. It was ok, but Goodbench is always excellent. All of the staff there are nice, so I'm sure there was a good reason for not letting a pram in - it is quite small in there and can get easily clogged up


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## Ms T (Feb 12, 2011)

Pip said:


> Yeah, that makes more sense, but is still stupid. I've drunk many a (really good) milky coffee in Italy and never been ed at.


 
They do think it's odd to drink milky coffee after about 10am though - Italians just don't do that.  They don't pass comment because they're used to tourists.


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## Janh (Feb 12, 2011)

I never find Federation's espresso coffee hot enough. It's got good flavour, though. I prefer the way the Portuguese do coffee at cafe Max.


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## wrysmile (Feb 12, 2011)

Kanda said:


> Federation was designed to prevent people clogging it with prams apparently. The guy (Arno) that helped design it had numerous meetings about this.


 
Well, they must have been annoyed by me and my six friends with buggies that piled in the other day. We had two prams inside and the rest out, plus very noisy chirruping babies. There was only two other people in there and the staff seemed fine about it all. Imagine at a busier time it wouldn't suit prams. I had a truly excellent take-away latte from there this morning as well - only complaint is that I'd have liked it bigger, it was so nice.


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## uk benzo (Feb 12, 2011)

Janh said:


> I never find Federation's espresso coffee hot enough. It's got good flavour, though. I prefer the way the Portuguese do coffee at cafe Max.



I agree with this. Fed's cappuccinos taste great, but are just too lukewarm for my liking. I like my cappuccinos hot so that I have to sip them over time.


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## Ms T (Feb 12, 2011)

I think the issue with prams is that a lot of them are massive and space is at a premium in London.


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## jakejb79 (Feb 13, 2011)

I found the staff quite pretentious, i was told by the server 'We're quite expensive, can you afford it' i wouldnt mind but i dont look a tramp (well so i thought)


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## DaveCinzano (Feb 13, 2011)

Ms T said:


> I think the issue with prams is that a lot of them are massive and space is at a premium in London.


 
I do hope the memo has been sent round to all Londoners (especially the lower class sorts) to stop fucking, at least not without first bleaching through their plumbing. How terribly antisocial!


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## tarannau (Feb 13, 2011)

I'm sure prams used to be a lot smaller and more prone to being folded up. Some of the latest models are more giant aspirational baby carrier than mere pram. 

Don't dislike seeing folks out with their babies, but some parents are particularly inconsiderate.


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## nick h. (Feb 13, 2011)

Rosie's is also designed to keep out the yummy mummies. I'm addicted to their flat whites and have never been to Federation. What am I missing?


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## tarannau (Feb 13, 2011)

Kanda said:


> Federation was designed to prevent people clogging it with prams apparently. The guy (Arno) that helped design it had numerous meetings about this.


 
Are people taking this to mean that it's designed to keep out prams (how? - baby height mounted barbed wire, stingers designed for pram wheels?) or designed to help prams fit in more effectively and help customer flow around the shop? I took Kanda's phrase to mean the latter, but it appears I'm in the minority


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## Spark (Feb 13, 2011)

I took it to mean that it was designed to be able to accommodate prams too.


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## tarannau (Feb 13, 2011)

The basic problem is, as Ms T suggests, is that prams are generally increasingly big and these shops are small, with a smattering of tables. 

I do find the rants about (eg)  'all of society, from coffee shop designers to your average person, trying to force us to stay home or go to children only places' a bit weird and/or unreasonable with that in mind.


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## nagapie (Feb 13, 2011)

tarannau said:


> (eg)  'all of society, from coffee shop designers to your average person, trying to force us to stay home or go to children only places' a bit weird and/or unreasonable with that in mind.



That was supposed to be a joke, in response to the ridiculous suggestion that people are designing places to keep pushchairs out.  I'll put a smiley on next time. I don't really think people are trying to force us to stay at home, well maybe the Feds and Rosie .

 My pushchair is about medium size. It's not good for babies to be in those tiny ones you can fold up when they're very small and I don't want to spend money on a new one just so I can fold it up to people's liking. The places I like in Brixton are accomodating to everyone and it's not a big issue. I also find it a bit rubbish that mums get painted as inconsiderate all the time, although I don't think that happened on this thread.


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## ShiftyBagLady (Feb 13, 2011)

jakejb79 said:


> I found the staff quite pretentious, i was told by the server 'We're quite expensive, can you afford it' i wouldnt mind but i dont look a tramp (well so i thought)


 They said that to you in Federation?


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## Orang Utan (Feb 13, 2011)

i love it but they discriminate against left-handed people


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## tommers (Feb 13, 2011)

Just as well hatboy isn't still about.  This would have been carnage.


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## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Feb 13, 2011)

jakejb79 said:


> I found the staff quite pretentious, i was told by the server 'We're quite expensive, can you afford it' i wouldnt mind but i dont look a tramp (well so i thought)


 
That's beyond pretentious, that's fucking ridiculous. Did you accidentally order the coffee mixed with Kristal champagne with a diamond at the bottom?


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## gaijingirl (Feb 13, 2011)

tarannau said:


> Are people taking this to mean that it's designed to keep out prams (how? - baby height mounted barbed wire, stingers designed for pram wheels?) or designed to help prams fit in more effectively and help customer flow around the shop? I took Kanda's phrase to mean the latter, but it appears I'm in the minority


 
I wasn't 100% sure but I thought this might be the case too as it's much MORE pram friendly than any of the other place near there...


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## gaijingirl (Feb 13, 2011)

as for the size of prams - people tend to have larger ones for when they're babies - once they're a bit more mobile and not confined to the pram the whole time you can get away with tiny lightweight ones.


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## Laughing Toad (Feb 13, 2011)

The solution.


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## tarannau (Feb 13, 2011)

nagapie said:


> That was supposed to be a joke, in response to the ridiculous suggestion that people are designing places to keep pushchairs out.  I'll put a smiley on next time. I don't really think people are trying to force us to stay at home, well maybe the Feds and Rosie .


 
I don't think anyone made that suggestion though, which is why it seemed a little weird that people starting focusing on the prospect of designing pushchairs out, possibly from Kanda's post.


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## nagapie (Feb 13, 2011)

tarannau said:


> I don't think anyone made that suggestion though, which is why it seemed a little weird that people starting focusing on the prospect of designing pushchairs out, possibly from Kanda's post.



Yep, Kanda's post. Unless he meant the Feds designed it with prams in mind so they can fit them in without clogging it up. And someone else said Rosie's is designed to keep out the yummy mummies.


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## Belushi (Feb 13, 2011)

Its weird as I read Kandas post as meaning the complete opposite.


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## Spark (Feb 13, 2011)

I doubt that anywhere is designed to keep out prams.  The units in the covered parts of the market are all pretty small so its always going to be tricky to fit prams and buggies in as well as tables and chairs.


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## splishsplash (Feb 13, 2011)

*really disappointed too ...*

lattes are great and they used to be quite friendly but they've made me feel pretty unwelcome recently. for example, a couple of weeks ago i was asked to sit on the bar (because i had a laptop and they wanted to keep a table free in case anyone came in - i could have shared a table if they had have done, or i could moved if there was a group who came in together who wanted the table, just 'cos i'm nice and would have done! so seemed unnecessary, over zealous and a bit hostile really ). today my friend and i bought two coffees and a cake and we were hardly there 30 mins and we got these pointed looks and then asked in a slightly pointed rather than friendly way if we wanted anything else. thing is there always seem to be these hipster types hanging around over their coffees - i might be being sensitive but is it 'cos i's over 40 and not a hipster! really not liking the unfriendly vibe.


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## tarannau (Feb 13, 2011)

Belushi said:


> Its weird as I read Kandas post as meaning the complete opposite.


 
Same here. That's why I queried the weird way the thread turned - I took it as a positive approach on the side of Federation, not a chance for outraged mums to leap on the soapbox

And the accusations of Rosie's being designed to 'keep out the yummy mummies' seem entirely unsourced and more than a little unlikely. It's a small shop, but access wise it's seemingly no different for other small shops.


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## gaijingirl (Feb 13, 2011)

maybe someone should ask Kanda?


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## tarannau (Feb 13, 2011)

Given the post's potential ambiguity, you'd think folks would be a little circumspect before accusing local businesses of being chlld-unfriendly and making all kinds of assumptions though, wouldn't you?


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## gaijingirl (Feb 13, 2011)

well I think it was just one person and I can understand her frustration as a fellow pram pusher - you do get a bit tired of the whole "yummy mummy" thing which is just a back-handed insult really.  What does it actually mean anyway?


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## tarannau (Feb 13, 2011)

Frustration's one thing, but leaping to fairly unpleasant assumptions about local businesses is another

And to be honest it wasn't just one poster either - SBL was getting her 'fuck offs' early in the thread too. It just seemed a weirdly confrontational state of affairs based on fuck all more than hearsay


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## Pip (Feb 13, 2011)

gaijingirl said:


> well I think it was just one person and I can understand her frustration as a fellow pram pusher - you do get a bit tired of the whole "yummy mummy" thing which is just a back-handed insult really.  What does it actually mean anyway?


 
I agree with you and I have no desire to cleanse coffee shops of mothers and their progeny, but can I invite you to Clapham one morning, and try and have a conversation or read quietly while 6 or 7 braying mums yell over their children, who are _exploring_ my newspaper, playing with my cup and wiping their soggy rusks on me? It's _delightful_, oh children are so precious. I know they have as much right to be there as me (obviously, barely even worth expressing) but that behaviour is obnoxious, and I think totally understandable and forgivable things like e.g. babies crying or having to climb over buggies is perceived as such by a lot of people.


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## gaijingirl (Feb 13, 2011)

It's a problem I suppose that isn't going to go away.  I've said it before but it's just as frustrating for those of us with children.  You tend to get a handful of places that are truly welcoming to children so they become a bit rammed with kids - as opposed to whenever I've been overseas where it's just given that kids can come in - so, IME, you don't tend to get certain places rammed with kids - which does make it impossible for child-free people to have a quiet drink.  I remember in France asking if it was ok to stay in a B&B with my baby (most here don't take babies and to be fair, I can understand why) and they looked at me like I was asking something really strange and said "of course".  

At the end of the day though, there are far more child free places than child rammed places and those that are full of kids are generally so because they target mums - probably because all the office workers are at work and it's a good source of income.  For example, The Florence, in Herne Hill - personally I don't like it one little bit but I have been there quite a bit since sprogging simply because it serves a purpose.  There are places I'd rather be but can't go to.  It was my choice to have a child - so there's not much point in me moaning but there is a great deal of intolerance out there which does make life a bit shitty sometimes.  It's not helped by the fact that some people behave inconsiderately - but the same is of any kind of social group yet somehow it's acceptable to make sweeping "yummy mummy" type statements of anyone who had a child and - god forbid, drinks a hot beverage outside of their own home!

Anyway, when I hear what it was like for my mum when she had us and basically there was next to nowhere to go - I count myself lucky.


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## Thora (Feb 13, 2011)

tarannau said:


> I'm sure prams used to be a lot smaller and more prone to being folded up. Some of the latest models are more giant aspirational baby carrier than mere pram.
> 
> Don't dislike seeing folks out with their babies, but some parents are particularly inconsiderate.


 
Prams used to be massive!  They were like this:







They've got smaller in recent years, more like this:






I have only very rarely been irritated by children in public places - don't know how some people seem to be such magnets for poorly behaved kids with feckless parents


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## Mrs Magpie (Feb 13, 2011)

Clapham is full of braying mums with a sense of entitlement. I am a mum and a granny and I have to say posh Clapham mums give mums a bad name. I think it's because they are very affluent that gives them that sense of entitlement. Manners cost nothing, so they haven't encountered them yet.


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## Pip (Feb 13, 2011)

That's it, like any group people whinge about, it's the more conspicuous (i.e. annoying) ones that stand out and spoil it for everyone else.


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## editor (Feb 13, 2011)

gaijingirl said:


> I wasn't 100% sure but I thought this might be the case too as it's much MORE pram friendly than any of the other place near there...


Indeed. And here's the proof (there was another two I couldn't fit in as my mobile hasn't got wide enough lens!).


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## Pip (Feb 13, 2011)

Thora said:


> I have only very rarely been irritated by children in public places - don't know how some people seem to be such magnets for poorly behaved kids with feckless parents


 
Based on precisely nothing, I imagine Bristol to be more progressive and friendly in the way gg described than the places I'm thinking about.


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## gaijingirl (Feb 13, 2011)

Brixton Village really isn't suitable for kids though - the units are mostly too small to bring prams into and don't have high chairs. (An exception to this is the Columbian restaurant next to Federation which is very welcoming to children, quite spacious and has child seats). There are no toilets with baby facilities (Pope's Road has baby changing but I've never once seen it open and also not found anyone to open it).  I don't go there very often as a result - it might be better in summer when we can sit outside and let the littl'un run around a little.  Also, although I have been to Federation/Goodbench (I don't drink coffee but have been when friends have wanted to go), I get very nervous about both (especially Goodbench which I just wouldn't go to at all now as the tables are perfect height for curious little easily scalded hands).  Occasionally we've had a crepe at Brick Box 'cos we can sit outside and bother no one - or my partner has gotten takeaway coffee from Federation (which incidentally he loves - but he always gets something called a "flat white" - which means nothing to me).  So in short, it wouldn't be my first choice of venue with a child but then I am pleased to be invited to go with friends.  It would be doable I think to make it more welcoming though if businesses wanted to attract that sort of daytime business - but I don't think this would go down very well with a lot of people.


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## miss minnie (Feb 13, 2011)

A big treat today, had lunch at Bellantoni's in the Granville Arcade.  On being seated I'm afraid that we did all groan to find that we were next to a table with 2 small children.  However, they redeemed the name of children everywhere by being very well behaved and as soon as they got bored and started to whine they were whisked off for a stroll around the market by one of the adults.  Nothing was clogged up by prams either.

The staff were completely unfazed by the presence of tiny tots, lush food and a good time was had by all!


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## hendo (Feb 13, 2011)

Pip said:


> I agree with you and I have no desire to cleanse coffee shops of mothers and their progeny, but can I invite you to Clapham one morning, and try and have a conversation or read quietly while 6 or 7 braying mums yell over their children, who are _exploring_ my newspaper, playing with my cup and wiping their soggy rusks on me? It's _delightful_, oh children are so precious. I know they have as much right to be there as me (obviously, barely even worth expressing) but that behaviour is obnoxious, and I think totally understandable and forgivable things like e.g. babies crying or having to climb over buggies is perceived as such by a lot of people.



It's like this at the Lido Cafe, so not just a Clapham thing.


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## nagapie (Feb 13, 2011)

tarannau said:


> Frustration's one thing, but leaping to fairly unpleasant assumptions about local businesses is another



I think you're being a little overprotective. I was hardly outraged, you just read what was tongue in cheek as serious. And it was an easy assumption to make about the Feds as Kanda's post is a bit ambiguous. And I didn't post the info about Rosie's but I can only comment on what is said on the thread.


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## tarannau (Feb 13, 2011)

There's tongue in cheek and there's nuttily leaping to all sorts of conclusions based on fuck all of substance. I'd say that your contribution was more of the latter.

Either side, it's a bit graceless to blame someone else's slightly ambiguous message for jumping on a high horse gracelessly, then claiming that your even more ambiguous post was 'tongue in cheek.' There are real people and their livelihoods involved.


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## nagapie (Feb 13, 2011)

tarannau said:


> There's tongue in cheek and there's nuttily leaping to all sorts of conclusions based on fuck all of substance. I'd say that your contribution was more of the latter.
> 
> Either side, it's a bit graceless to blame someone else's slightly ambiguous message for jumping on a high horse gracelessly, then claiming that your even more ambiguous post was 'tongue in cheek.' There are real people and their livelihoods involved.



That's a load of shit. The sentence you were referring to was totally tongue in cheek, unless you consider me a nut, which it seems you do. And then I even followed it with a SMILEY to make it clearer. I've posted plenty of brilliant reviews about the Feds on this forum in the past, so get off your falsely constructed soapbox.


----------



## tarannau (Feb 13, 2011)

Stop with the revisionism - there was no smiley after the post in question, although you did add one in a subsequent post in direct response to me, claiming your original post was 'tongue in cheek'

Graceless bollocks frankly


----------



## nagapie (Feb 13, 2011)

You're full of bullshit. You know what I meant better than me because you're always right. This is why I never usually try to use humour on the internet. Whatevs.


----------



## tarannau (Feb 13, 2011)

PS: Love the comment about a 'falsely constructed soapbox' though. Given the context of your rant, that's seems more than a little rich



PPS: So where was this mystery smiley then - did the boards swallow it? Have some respect and post honestly


----------



## nagapie (Feb 13, 2011)

tarannau said:


> PS: Love the comment about a 'falsely constructed soapbox' though. Given the context of your rant, that's seems more than a little rich
> 
> 
> 
> PPS: So where was this mystery smiley then - did the boards swallow it? Have some respect and post honestly



The smiley was in the second post, which I had to write because you took my obviously not serious post seriously. So I clarified. 

And I see from your post above that you did realise my post was a joke. You've just got yourself so worked up you can't back down over something you read inaccurately.


----------



## tarannau (Feb 13, 2011)

No, I thought your post was entirely out of line, giving an entirely unnecessary set of assumptions based on one whole post. As jokes go, it was fucking unfunny and possibly harmful to some fairly decent businesses.

I'm not worked up - I just think you're a graceless arse that needs to take more care.


----------



## Ms T (Feb 13, 2011)

To be fair, nagapie, it wasn't obvious that your post was a joke. And it was in the context of other posts criticising Brixton businesses for supposedly actively discouraging mums and children.

Having said that, I think you're being a bit strong, tarranau.


----------



## tarannau (Feb 13, 2011)

Perhaps, but I do strongly object to this revisionist take that it was an obvious tongue in cheek 'joke', particularly when the same poster followed up with further hearsay about Rosies a couple of posts later.


----------



## Rushy (Feb 14, 2011)

Shabby weather we've been having. The forecast for tomorrow is sunny.


----------



## editor (Feb 14, 2011)

Actually, I might just pop down to Federation again tomorrow for another fine coffee. Obviously, I'll kick over any prams getting between me and my coffee fix.


----------



## paolo (Feb 14, 2011)

I really like coffee at Federation.

(minimalist post  )


----------



## Orang Utan (Feb 14, 2011)

i thought a yummy mummy was just a fit mum


----------



## Orang Utan (Feb 14, 2011)

anyway, as I mentioned earlier, the REAL issue is their persistent discrimination against left handed people.


----------



## ernestolynch (Feb 14, 2011)

What did this social class do before the current trend in posh coffee shops?


----------



## Orang Utan (Feb 14, 2011)

bought their own Jura espresso machines and showed them off at dinner parties of course.


----------



## ernestolynch (Feb 14, 2011)

Ah. Why do they like coffee so much?


----------



## Orang Utan (Feb 14, 2011)

cos you can discuss it for hours like wine, thus displaying your superior knowledge to your fellow dinner party goers. 
i like posh coffee too mind, though drink instant at home.


----------



## ernestolynch (Feb 14, 2011)

I think the US sitcom Friends brought them all out.


----------



## Winot (Feb 14, 2011)

gaijingirl said:


> Brixton Village really isn't suitable for kids though



Not really suitable for babies, but great for older kids - ours are 3 and 5 and it's really great taking them there to eat because there's loads to look at and if they get bored at the table they can wander around and there's no traffic.

There do need to get some loos sorted though.

And as I.m sure you know gg, the Lounge is great for babies.


----------



## Laughing Toad (Feb 14, 2011)

The cafe in the middle of Brockwell Park isn't suitable for babies, older kids, _or adults_.


----------



## silverfish (Feb 14, 2011)

ernestolynch said:


> Ah. Why do they like coffee so much?


 
I've never seen the appeal of something that makes you sweat and gives you palpitations :-(


----------



## tommers (Feb 14, 2011)

Orang Utan said:


> anyway, as I mentioned earlier, the REAL issue is their persistent discrimination against left handed people.


 
Yes, i saw that mentioned earlier. Tell me so that i can get all indignant.

Did you know that the latin for right is dexter. (dextrous, dexterity)? The latin for left? Sinister. 

That's how deep the discrimination against our kind goes.


----------



## Ms T (Feb 14, 2011)

Orang Utan said:


> anyway, as I mentioned earlier, the REAL issue is their persistent discrimination against left handed people.


 
Can't say that I've ever noticed that myself.  In what way are we discriminated against?


----------



## Ms T (Feb 14, 2011)

Winot said:


> Not really suitable for babies, but great for older kids - ours are 3 and 5 and it's really great taking them there to eat because there's loads to look at and if they get bored at the table they can wander around and there's no traffic.
> 
> There do need to get some loos sorted though.
> 
> And as I.m sure you know gg, the Lounge is great for babies.



There is a loo somewhere - you have to ask for the key (not that I've ever done it).  Pope's Rd toilets are open until 7pm.

I went for lunch at the Islander's Kitchen with my friend who has a baby, and the lovely lady who runs it (Marguerite) took her daughter off for a little walk round the market while she had her lunch!


----------



## silverfish (Feb 14, 2011)

tommers said:


> Yes, i saw that mentioned earlier. Tell me so that i can get all indignant.
> 
> Did you know that the latin for right is dexter. (dextrous, dexterity)? The latin for left? Sinister.
> 
> That's how deep the discrimination against our kind goes.



I bet you've got ginger hair as well


----------



## tarannau (Feb 14, 2011)

By the way, if you can struggle up the stairs, the newish Brazilian place in the market should be good for kids. It's fairly spacious up there, very friendly and has its own toilets

The feijoada ain't half bad too. And it's a slight novelty being able to sit upstairs at the market, looking down at familiar faces.


----------



## Orang Utan (Feb 14, 2011)

tommers said:


> Yes, i saw that mentioned earlier. Tell me so that i can get all indignant.
> 
> Did you know that the latin for right is dexter. (dextrous, dexterity)? The latin for left? Sinister.
> 
> That's how deep the discrimination against our kind goes.


 


Ms T said:


> Can't say that I've ever noticed that myself.  In what way are we discriminated against?


 have you not had a flat white from there? if you're left-handed, the pattern is upside down. they should ask first! it's OUTRAGEOUS! :MAD:


----------



## kyser_soze (Feb 14, 2011)

Lordy, i can imagine the howls of laughter if someone linked to a thread like this from the ED forum.

The next time there's a thread which bemoans the 'gentrifcation' of Brixton, this will be the first thread I link back to as evidence of a huge amount of denial of the OP of that thread. Just because it's bohemian and not rugger-bugger doesn't alter anything.

Had a flat white from there on Saturday, good, nice creamy milk, they put my sugar in _before_ anything else, which meant it dissolved properly and it was a nice bean. Pretty fucking titchy for £2.20 tho. Almost as bad a a coffee shop just off Ladbroke Grove that charges £2 for an Illy espresso.


----------



## tarannau (Feb 14, 2011)

I know - see also the thread about waitrose and it's remarkable similarity between the contributions of posters here and on the ED forum. This place is having an identity crisis


----------



## fortyplus (Feb 14, 2011)

Ms T said:


> There is a loo somewhere - you have to ask for the key (not that I've ever done it).  Pope's Rd toilets are open until 7pm.
> 
> I went for lunch at the Islander's Kitchen with my friend who has a baby, and the lovely lady who runs it (Marguerite) took her daughter off for a little walk round the market while she had her lunch!


 
Traders have a key for toilets which are provided for traders; letting the customers borrow the key is unofficial but the only solution after 7pm when Pope's Road closes.  And frankly unacceptable; just one of the many things wrong with the GA which if anyone involved in running the place actually gave a fuck might get sorted.


----------



## Ms T (Feb 14, 2011)

fortyplus said:


> Traders have a key for toilets which are provided for traders; letting the customers borrow the key is unofficial but the only solution after 7pm when Pope's Road closes.  And frankly unacceptable; just one of the many things wrong with the GA which if anyone involved in running the place actually gave a fuck might get sorted.


 
I am quite friendly with some of the traders which is how I know about the key - I can't see the people who own the market forking out for toilets somehow.  They're already trying to charge people quite a lot more rent for the late openings.


----------



## Ms T (Feb 14, 2011)

kyser_soze said:


> Lordy, i can imagine the howls of laughter if someone linked to a thread like this from the ED forum.
> 
> The next time there's a thread which bemoans the 'gentrifcation' of Brixton, this will be the first thread I link back to as evidence of a huge amount of denial of the OP of that thread. Just because it's bohemian and not rugger-bugger doesn't alter anything.
> 
> Had a flat white from there on Saturday, good, nice creamy milk, they put my sugar in _before_ anything else, which meant it dissolved properly and it was a nice bean. Pretty fucking titchy for £2.20 tho. Almost as bad a a coffee shop just off Ladbroke Grove that charges £2 for an Illy espresso.


 
Middle class people live in Brixton too shocker.


----------



## Belushi (Feb 14, 2011)

Orang Utan said:


> have you not had a flat white from there? if you're left-handed, the pattern is upside down. they should ask first! it's OUTRAGEOUS! :MAD:


 
It's worse than the holocaust


----------



## Kanda (Feb 14, 2011)

Ms T said:


> Middle class people live in Brixton too shocker.


 
Aye, it's not much different than Clapham judging by this thread


----------



## fortyplus (Feb 14, 2011)

Ms T said:


> I am quite friendly with some of the traders which is how I know about the key - I can't see the people who own the market forking out for toilets somehow.  They're already trying to charge people quite a lot more rent for the late openings.



Yes. They claim it costs them an extra grand a week to keep the place open later, which traders will have to pay from next month when the trial period ends.


----------



## tarannau (Feb 14, 2011)

Oh come on, it's probably fairer to say that this forum is more similar to the ED forum that it'd once like to have believed. 

However, this forum is hardly representative of Brixton as whole, same as it always has been and always will be. It's an internet forum after all.


----------



## miss minnie (Feb 14, 2011)

Kanda said:


> Aye, it's not much different than Clapham judging by this thread


And ofc a thread on the internets is always the best way to judge a locale.


----------



## Kanda (Feb 14, 2011)

miss minnie said:


> And ofc a thread on the internets is always the best way to judge a locale.


----------



## kyser_soze (Feb 14, 2011)

Ms T said:


> Middle class people live in Brixton too shocker.


 
I have no issue with m/c people living in or around Brixton. However, there are any number of posters, some of whom have posted on this very thread, who have form in ranting about gentrification in Brixton 'destroying' the character of the place (e.g. that Starbucks getting a store in the town was some kind of assault on the community), whereas what they actually mean is gentrification by _the wrong sort of people_. The sort of people who would buy coffee at a chain of overpriced coffee places, not some nominally independent store tucked away in 'Brixton Village' opposite an artisan pasta maker.

It's up there with 'wanky hipsters' in terms of the level of denial.



> However, this forum is hardly representative of Brixton as whole, same as it always has been and always will be. It's an internet forum after all.



Well yeah, in order to do that about 40% of the posters would have to be black Christians.


----------



## paolo (Feb 14, 2011)

fortyplus said:


> Yes. They claim it costs them an extra grand a week to keep the place open later, which traders will have to pay from next month when the trial period ends.


 
Out of interest do the units get electricity or gas included in the rent? What will the %ge increase in rent be?


----------



## tarannau (Feb 14, 2011)

It's always been that way though, albeit more so now. Some of the most vigorous anti-gentrification posters of the past were public schoolboys who came into the area. It's about self identification 

Personally I really want to see Brixton's older character and traditional traders survive, but I'm highly unconvinced that much trickle down effect will occur from these new units. And whilst I like the food discussions on here, it does sadden me a little that it's more about lattes, flat white coffees and eating in restaurants rather than about the huge range of decent produce all around us, even outside the Farmers Market.


----------



## editor (Feb 14, 2011)

kyser_soze said:


> I have no issue with m/c people living in or around Brixton. However, there are any number of posters, some of whom have posted on this very thread, who have form in ranting about gentrification in Brixton 'destroying' the character of the place (e.g. that Starbucks getting a store in the town was some kind of assault on the community), whereas what they actually mean is gentrification by _the wrong sort of people_. The sort of people who would buy coffee at a chain of overpriced coffee places, not some nominally independent store tucked away in 'Brixton Village' opposite an artisan pasta maker.
> 
> It's up there with 'wanky hipsters' in terms of the level of denial.


Wow. You're quite angry. 

For the record, Brixton has always had a middle class, and go back a hundred years or so and parts of the centre were positively posh.


----------



## Pip (Feb 14, 2011)

> gentrification





> gentrification





> gentrification



Please not this again


----------



## kyser_soze (Feb 14, 2011)

editor said:


> Wow. You're quite angry.
> 
> For the record, Brixton has always had a middle class, and go back a hundred years or so and parts of the centre were positively posh.


 
I'm well aware of that ed, I just wonder sometimes if people like yourself forget that when you kick off about Starbucks and the wrong kind of people moving to Brixton.


----------



## editor (Feb 14, 2011)

tarannau said:


> And whilst I like the food discussions on here, it does sadden me a little that it's more about lattes, flat white coffees and eating in restaurants rather than about the huge range of decent produce all around us, even outside the Farmers Market.


The 'start new thread' button is up there ^^^

It's as much to you as anyone else what gets discussed here.


----------



## tarannau (Feb 14, 2011)

editor said:


> Wow. You're quite angry.
> 
> For the record, Brixton has always had a middle class, and go back a hundred years or so and parts of the centre were positively posh.


 
To be fair to Kyser, he's not denying the existence of the middle class in Brixton in the slightest. He's more pointing out the mismatch between posters slagging off the ED forum and the very similar contributions on here. Hey ho.


----------



## editor (Feb 14, 2011)

kyser_soze said:


> I'm well aware of that ed, I just wonder sometimes if people like yourself forget that when you kick off about Starbucks and the wrong kind of people moving to Brixton.


If you love Starbucks and think it's great addition to Brixton then I'm delighted for you, but I'm entitled to voice my dislike of its overpriced, poor quality coffee and its anti-union activities.


----------



## editor (Feb 14, 2011)

tarannau said:


> To be fair to Kyser, he's not denying the existence of the middle class in Brixton in the slightest. He's more pointing out the mismatch between posters slagging off the ED forum and the very similar contributions on here. Hey ho.


Who are all these people slagging off the ED forum?


----------



## gabi (Feb 14, 2011)

What's the ED forum?


----------



## tarannau (Feb 14, 2011)

editor said:


> The 'start new thread' button is up there ^^^
> 
> It's as much to you as anyone else what gets discussed here.


 
Oh come on, I've spent plenty of time on here mentioning favourite foods, suggesting eats to try, talking about all kinds of veg and how to cook it. I'm passionate about spreading the word of places and things I like, from the roti woman to colombian chicarrons. I'm also not averse about talking about what I like from the Farmers Market either. 

But starting a thread to talk about which place has got the ripest mango, best lychees or meatiest ribs on sale at the time isn't my style - it's more the conversation I'll have with friends, family and down the pub than here. It's a different type of place online here - more about coffee, the best veggie outlets and so on. That's not a huge criticism, it's just the way it's always been, and quite probably more so recently.


----------



## Ms T (Feb 14, 2011)

I have clearly become so used to the BLATANT discrimination I don't even notice any more.  Mind you, they serve lattes in glasses now, so there is no upside down pattern issue.  Flat whites are too strong for me as I'm a big girl when it comes to coffeee.


----------



## editor (Feb 14, 2011)

gabi said:


> What's the ED forum?


 It's what everyone's always slagging off apparently! I *think* he means some East Dulwich forum. Or maybe it's a forum about me!


----------



## Ms T (Feb 14, 2011)

Kanda said:


> Aye, it's not much different than Clapham judging by this thread


 
I regularly drive through Clapham on a Friday/Sat night after work.  It really is very different to Brixton.


----------



## fortyplus (Feb 14, 2011)

paolo999 said:


> Out of interest do the units get electricity or gas included in the rent? What will the %ge increase in rent be?


 
Gas, electric etc is extra; so are business rates. 

Some traders (mostly the traditional ones) are on three- or ten-year leases,  and pay rent-plus-service charge.  The newer ones are mostly on one-year licences, at fixed rent-including-service-charge.

In their consultation document, LAP are talking about an extra 10% on the inclusive rent.

LAP could slap the extra service charge for late opening on to the traditional trades without changing any contracts, but not for the newer trades who are the ones to benefit from it.  Between 100 or so units the extra money would be very little, between the few who need to stay late, it's a lot.

The argument is twofold - first, whether it should be anywhere close to the amount LAP says it is, mainly for staff and "security" until 10pm; and second, how it is shared between the different trades. The new, mostly restaurant trades, need late/Sunday opening to make any money; the traditional trades don't (and don't stay open late).  

Echoes of the wider gentrification debate; LAP cynically exploiting differences?


----------



## editor (Feb 14, 2011)

Ms T said:


> I regularly drive through Clapham on a Friday/Sat night after work.  It really is very different to Brixton.


Of course it is. But them maybe he's trolling.


----------



## tarannau (Feb 14, 2011)

editor said:


> It's what everyone's always slagging off apparently! I *think* he means some East Dulwich forum. Or maybe it's a forum about me!


 
Oh come on, it's not hard to uncover - just type 'Dulwich Forum' and search by posts. Take your choice.  And that's only a fraction of what's been said, it being difficult to search for ED on this software.

I'm sure Kyser could pick out examples if he wanted, but it's not really necessary to make a serious evidential session of it - the ED forum has been a light hearted target of fun on here for a little while. Surprised you've missed the previous comments really.


----------



## Kanda (Feb 14, 2011)

editor said:


> Of course it is. But them maybe he's trolling.


 
Making a jokey comment with clearly visible smiley isn't trolling.


----------



## Ms T (Feb 14, 2011)

Federation may be "gentrified", although there's still a big mix of people in there imho, but you've still got a load of other places within a short distance, including several Colombian places, an old school greasy spoon (with pretty rubbish coffee!) and a couple of Poruguese caffs.  The latte or whateever the equivalent is in Portuguese at Cafe Max is good and cheap.


----------



## editor (Feb 14, 2011)

tarannau said:


> Oh come on, it's not hard to uncover - just type 'Dulwich Forum' and search by posts. Take your choice.  And that's only a fraction of what's been said, it being difficult to search for ED on this software.


So exactly who are these "posters slagging off the ED forum" that you've been referring to?


----------



## Pip (Feb 14, 2011)

Fuuurrrrget it.


----------



## tarannau (Feb 14, 2011)

<sigh> Sometimes I think you'd be better off letting things lie rather than being so touch and downright confrontational about things. 

On the first page using the search strings suggested above, you'll see B**** talking sarcastically 'about as good as the ED forum' (I'm slightly paraphrasing, but imagine it accompanied with a big smiley) and LC suggesting posting a picture of his arse to the ED forum.

That's all fairly mild, but I'm sure you can dig around and find more striking examples if you really can be arsed. Frankly I can't - feel free to continue in interrogation and denial mode.


----------



## editor (Feb 14, 2011)

tarannau said:


> <sigh> Sometimes I think you'd be better off letting things lie rather than being so touch and downright confrontational about things.
> 
> On the first page using the search strings suggested above, you'll see B**** talking sarcastically 'about as good as the ED forum' (I'm slightly paraphrasing, but imagine it accompanied with a big smiley) and LC suggesting posting a picture of his arse to the ED forum.
> 
> That's all fairly mild, but I'm sure you can dig around and find more striking examples if you really can be arsed. Frankly I can't - feel free to continue in interrogation and denial mode.


 OK. So you're just banging on about nothing then and hardly anyone's mentioned the ED forums, let alone slagged them off. Thanks for clearing that up.


----------



## tarannau (Feb 14, 2011)

Edit to take out quoted (and deleted) post


----------



## tarannau (Feb 14, 2011)

editor said:


> OK. So you're just banging on about nothing then and hardly anyone's mentioned the ED forums, let alone slagged them off. Thanks for clearing that up.


----------



## paolo (Feb 14, 2011)

fortyplus said:


> Gas, electric etc is extra; so are business rates.
> 
> Some traders (mostly the traditional ones) are on three- or ten-year leases,  and pay rent-plus-service charge.  The newer ones are mostly on one-year licences, at fixed rent-including-service-charge.
> 
> ...


 
I suspect - but may be wrong - that retail rents are not adjusted for tenants preferred opening hours. If so, I'd say LAP are possibly being unsympathetic in applying the norm, rather than this being an unusual rent system designed to flush non-late opening businesses out. (Perhaps they want that too - no idea on that)

Nonetheless - returning the original point - LAP should put loos in given the amount of catering trade they are clearly encouraging.


----------



## editor (Feb 14, 2011)

paolo999 said:


> Nonetheless - returning the original point - LAP should put loos in given the amount of catering trade they are clearly encouraging.


Indeed. It seems crazy that there's no loos about when they're having their late night openings - but there again, there's still no toilets in Windrush Square either and those 'pop up' loos are still a rare sight on a weekend.


----------



## paolo (Feb 14, 2011)

editor said:


> Indeed. It seems crazy that there's no loos about when they're having their late night openings - but there again, there's still no toilets in Windrush Square either and those 'pop up' loos are still a rare sight on a weekend.



I'm not sure I see the relevance.


----------



## Winot (Feb 14, 2011)

Ms T said:


> I regularly drive through Clapham on a Friday/Sat night after work.  It really is very different to Brixton.


 
Clapham always used to have a strongly white working class element to its nightlife on a Friday/Saturday night, which was very different to the 'upturned rugby shirt' stereotype which usually attracts comment here (which is also present of course).  Not sure if that's still the case.


----------



## Ms T (Feb 14, 2011)

Winot said:


> Clapham always used to have a strongly white working class element to its nightlife on a Friday/Saturday night, which was very different to the 'upturned rugby shirt' stereotype which usually attracts comment here (which is also present of course).  Not sure if that's still the case.


 
I can't really comment because I'm only passing through but there are hordes and hordes of the stereotype you mention milling about on the High St and Pavement.


----------



## T & P (Feb 14, 2011)

Ms T said:


> I regularly drive through Clapham on a Friday/Sat night after work.  It really is very different to Brixton.


 Clapham Common, yes, couldn't be more different. Clapham Junction is somewhat more similar though.


----------



## gabi (Feb 14, 2011)

I like clapham junction. I occasionally have to vist clapham common though to meet one or two misguided friends who live there and am almost physically repulsed by it.


----------



## editor (Feb 14, 2011)

paolo999 said:


> I'm not sure I see the relevance.


It's a general observation on the lack of public toilets for Brixton's burgeoning night economy, which now includes Brixton Village with its regular late night openings.


----------



## nagapie (Feb 14, 2011)

tarannau said:


> Perhaps, but I do strongly object to this revisionist take that it was an obvious tongue in cheek 'joke', particularly when the same poster followed up with further hearsay about Rosies a couple of posts later.



Ms T, as soon as I realised it hadn't been taken as a joke, I clarified. I realise everything isn't as cut and dry on line but I didn't let it drag on, said what I had meant straight away. It was a hyperbolic response to an over the top suggestion, and if I'd read Kanda's statement wrongly, that only had to be said as some did. 

tarannau - I only commented on what a poster had said about Rosie's. Surely your argument is with that person if you think they're slurring a Brixton business.

Without getting back into this argument it seems to me that the key issue is that the Feds have built a rep and customer base as much on their friendliness as well as the quality of their coffee. So it's quite startling to hear more than one complaint against them for being unwelcoming.


----------



## fortyplus (Feb 14, 2011)

paolo999 said:


> I suspect - but may be wrong - that retail rents are not adjusted for tenants preferred opening hours. If so, I'd say LAP are possibly being unsympathetic in applying the norm, rather than this being an unusual rent system designed to flush non-late opening businesses out. (Perhaps they want that too - no idea on that)


In a shop on the high st you're responsible for all the security etc yourself; you need extra staff to stay open late, you pay them. But LAP are making up the numbers; the "security" is a joke. They have offices in St James and they are only concerned about the rent coming in on time. 



> Nonetheless - returning the original point - LAP should put loos in given the amount of catering trade they are clearly encouraging.


Absolutely. They could find the space, too, for some ground-floor disabled-accessible loos.  The traders' ones are upstairs, so wouldn't pass DDA.  And considering the amount of catering trade, they should make sure the traders' loos are regularly cleaned; more often than not they're filthy. 

The basic problem is that no one in the market management actually gives a fuck about anything other than the rent, which is so shortsighted of them.


----------



## paolo (Feb 14, 2011)

@fortyplus - I was including shopping centres that open late. Do they charge rent according to preferred opening hours?

I'm not sure I like what LAP are doing either, but just want to be clear as to whether this is specifically designed to flush out certain types of business as you suggest. I suspect it's just they want to make more money, and aren't very sympathetic in how they do that.


----------



## editor (Feb 14, 2011)

Just been to Federation for a coffee and they were aware of this thread 

One of the owners was a bit baffled why someone wouldn't just ask for a hotter/stronger coffee at the time rather than saying nothing but then moaning on the internetz later.


----------



## Dan U (Feb 14, 2011)

editor said:


> Just been to Federation for a coffee and they were aware of this thread
> 
> One of the owners was a bit baffled why someone wouldn't just ask for a hotter/stronger coffee at the time rather than saying nothing but then moaning on the internetz later.



Despite that being a valid comment, tis not the way of the internetz


----------



## nick h. (Feb 14, 2011)

nagapie said:


> tarannau - I only commented on what a poster had said about Rosie's. Surely your argument is with that person if you think they're slurring a Brixton business.



Quite. The slurmonger was me. I overheard a remark from Rosie's mgmt that 'we don't get the yummy mummies' in here, and to be fair I can't be sure whether it was said with satisfaction or it was just an observation that there isn't space to manoeuvre a pushchair because it's a cramped, tiny shop in which even customers without babies struggle to squeeze between the tables. But as luck would have it I shared the place with a couple and their most entertaining baby this morning. I complimented them on getting a pushchair in there, and they said it was very small, which makes life a lot easier.


----------



## editor (Feb 14, 2011)

Dan U said:


> Despite that being a valid comment, tis not the way of the internetz


True. Far better to hold the disappointment and anger in and then EXPLODE WITH RAGE when you get home.


----------



## Dan U (Feb 14, 2011)

editor said:


> True. Far better to hold the disappointment and anger in and then EXPLODE WITH RAGE when you get home.



It's the British way!


----------



## Kanda (Feb 14, 2011)

They make coffee every day... you'd think they'd get it right!


----------



## tarannau (Feb 14, 2011)

nick h. said:


> Quite. The slurmonger was me. I overheard a remark from Rosie's mgmt that 'we don't get the yummy mummies' in here, and to be fair I can't be sure whether it was said with satisfaction or it was just an observation that there isn't space to manoeuvre a pushchair because it's a cramped, tiny shop in which even customers without babies struggle to squeeze between the tables. But as luck would have it I shared the place with a couple and their most entertaining baby this morning. I complimented them on getting a pushchair in there, and they said it was very small, which makes life a lot easier.


 
For the spirit of equality, you're both as bad as each each. It became a bit of an egging on session derived from no more than a couple of ambiguous comments. A few posts later and there's talk and allegations of market shops being deliberately designed to exclude prams from multiple posters, based on jack all of real substance. It's all a bit green inker conspiratastic - whether folks think I'm horribly harsh or not, those kind of chinese whispers are best avoided imo.


----------



## nick h. (Feb 14, 2011)

tarannau said:


> For the spirit of equality, you're both as bad as each each. It became a bit of an egging on session derived from no more than a couple of ambiguous comments. A few posts later and there's talk and allegations of market shops being deliberately designed to exclude prams from multiple posters, based on jack all of real substance. It's all a bit green inker conspiratastic - whether folks think I'm horribly harsh or not, those kind of chinese whispers are best avoided imo.


 
You've really spoiled the fun. I was quite intrigued by the idea of coffee shops being designed to keep out pushchairs. Then I started wondering why Caffe Nero always has fifteeen babies in it even though it's upstairs. Clearly I've got a lot to learn about catering and babies. Anyway, what I really want to know is how a Federation flat white compares to one at Rosie's.  Not that I could ever be persuaded to give up Rosie's sausage rolls with chili jam.


----------



## gaijingirl (Feb 14, 2011)

Just to answer your wonedring Nick H... Caffe Nero has high chairs and baby changing and a lift that can fit 2-3 prams in it.... when you've got an explosive poo machine these things tend to be the thing that determines your outings!


----------



## fortyplus (Feb 14, 2011)

paolo999 said:


> @fortyplus - I was including shopping centres that open late. Do they charge rent according to preferred opening hours?


I doubt it. Shopping centre leases often include minimum trading hours, as - in fact - do the leases/licences at BV. Mon-Sat, 8.30-5.30, 3pm on Wednesdays. 


> I'm not sure I like what LAP are doing either, but just want to be clear as to whether this is specifically designed to flush out certain types of business as you suggest. I suspect it's just they want to make more money, and aren't very sympathetic in how they do that.



 I don't think it's designed to flush out certain types of business. I think it's probably more designed to create a division where none exists, if they've thought about it at all. Earlier rental practices were designed to run the place down prior to demolition, but now that's out of the question, I think that LAP have no more ideas. The place is great, but it needs management with some coherent vision and policy to  create a sustainable cashflow from rents into the future.  That vision has to recognise that both the "traditional" and the newer trades are together its strengths.


----------



## paolo (Feb 14, 2011)

fortyplus said:


> The place is great, but it needs management with some coherent vision and policy to  create a sustainable cashflow from rents into the future. That vision has to recognise that both the "traditional" and the newer trades are together its strengths.


 
That I certainly agree with.


----------



## ernestolynch (Feb 14, 2011)

What the frig is a flat white?


----------



## twistedAM (Feb 15, 2011)

ernestolynch said:


> What the frig is a flat white?



I was just going to post the exact same thing.
"Nu coffee" terminology baffles me.


----------



## editor (Feb 15, 2011)

twistedAM said:


> I was just going to post the exact same thing.
> "Nu coffee" terminology baffles me.


I've no idea either, but then again I refuse to use terms like 'Caffè Americano.'  I don't even like the horrid Americanism 'skinny' to mean skimmed milk.

I'll just order a 'cappuccino' or a 'coffee with milk'. Incidentally, it you order a "white coffee" in the States they don't 'alf give you a funny look.


----------



## Belushi (Feb 15, 2011)

Flat White is much like a latte.

I like an Americano myself.


----------



## ernestolynch (Feb 15, 2011)

Double espresso topped up with hot water, that's what I make. Never bought a coffee though.


----------



## paolo (Feb 15, 2011)

Belushi said:


> Flat White is much like a latte.


 
What's the difference


----------



## Winot (Feb 15, 2011)

It's stronger and smoother.  Don't know how.


----------



## Ms T (Feb 15, 2011)

Winot said:


> It's stronger and smoother.  Don't know how.


 
Less milk, afaik.


----------



## kyser_soze (Feb 15, 2011)

There's less milk in a flat white, but it's steamed to a denser, creamier consistency than a latté. Despite what the Australians claim, it originated in NZ.

An Americano is a term invented in Italy during WWII by Italian baristas when the US soldiers, being Merkins and therefore unaccustomed to anything that had a strong taste, watered down their espressos. Ern's tipple above is an Americano.


----------



## T & P (Feb 15, 2011)

Well, I think this whole thread can be resumed as a storm in a coffee cup, anyway.


----------



## twistedAM (Feb 15, 2011)

kyser_soze said:


> There's less milk in a flat white, but it's steamed to a denser, creamier consistency than a latté. Despite what the Australians claim, it originated in NZ.
> 
> An Americano is a term invented in Italy during WWII by Italian baristas when the US soldiers, being Merkins and therefore unaccustomed to anything that had a strong taste, watered down their espressos. Ern's tipple above is an Americano.



"Americano" still tastes more of coffee that some stuff that's had a load of cowjuice squeezed into it.

Anyway well done New Zealand. I guess since Anchor has more competition these days you have to find a use for excess milk.


----------



## kyser_soze (Feb 15, 2011)

> I guess since Anchor has more competition these days you have to find a use for excess milk



I think the NZ Dairy Farmers Cooperative dries it to powder and sells it to the Chinese for $$$$s.

NZs biggest export now, much to the chagrin of locals who, despite living in the second largest dairy producing country in the world (after the USA) pay through the nose for milk & cheese (last time I was there the price of a kilo of cheese was a front page story)


----------



## Mrs Redboots (Feb 15, 2011)

editor said:


> Just been to Federation for a coffee and they were aware of this thread
> 
> One of the owners was a bit baffled why someone wouldn't just ask for a hotter/stronger coffee at the time rather than saying nothing but then moaning on the internetz later.


 
What was to complain about?  If that is how the coffees are at Federation, it just means they aren't to my taste.  Good, now I know that, I'll try some of the other independent places in Brixton!  The one on Brixton Station Road (can't remember its name) did me a lovely coffee the other week.... but mostly, to be fair, I make my own at home these days.

Incidentally, re children's pushchairs, they've hugely increased in size in recent years.  I used to push my daughter all over the market, back in the day, with no problems at all; our favourite place for a cuppa was that little greasy spoon in the now-vanished arcade just next to the Tube station (anybody else remember that?).  No problem at all finding space for her pushchair in there.  But my grandson's pushchair is about six times the size, really huge, and the one and only time I tried wheeling it about Brixton, I felt as though I were trying to drive a 4x4 in the aisles!


----------



## kyser_soze (Feb 15, 2011)

> But my grandson's pushchair is about six times the size



6 times? _Really_?  How big is your grandchild?


----------



## Kanda (Feb 15, 2011)

They've actually reduced in size over the years, there's pics earlier in the thread showing this.... 

You're Son/Daughter probably just bought a chunky trendy 4x4 pram cos it's the in thing, apparently.


----------



## kyser_soze (Feb 15, 2011)

Orang Utan said:


> i thought a yummy mummy was just a fit mum


 
It does, it's just wildly misappropriated here to mean 'Mother from a postcode we don't like (SW4, SE22) probably with a 4x4 and similar 'ridiculous' buggy to match.'


----------



## Mrs Redboots (Feb 15, 2011)

kyser_soze said:


> 6 times? _Really_?  How big is your grandchild?



He's about six times the size, too.....!  Seriously, though, they bought an all-in-one pram, pushchair and car seat, and it's massive - the daughter is now considering buying a folding Maclaren-style buggy to use on public transport as the other is so anti-social.


----------



## Thora (Feb 15, 2011)

Unless you can afford to buy a pram, and then later a buggy, it's cheaper to get an all-in-one from the start.


----------



## editor (Feb 15, 2011)

Kanda said:


> They've actually reduced in size over the years, there's pics earlier in the thread showing this....
> 
> You're Son/Daughter probably just bought a chunky trendy 4x4 pram cos it's the in thing, apparently.


Well, they were MASSIVE in Edwardian times, shrunk down in size over the years, and although there's still loads of modest pushchairs/buggies about, there has been something of a trend for what appear to be offroad-capable prams that seem to echo some characteristics of 4x4 sports vehicles.


----------



## kyser_soze (Feb 15, 2011)

Not to piss on anyone's fire here, but having fairly recently test driven a wide variety of all-in-ones, and basic fold-ups, there's not much in their pavement footprint. Certainly, the 'twinset' buggies that sit kids side by side _are_ huge (and their equivalent where they sit one slightly on top have a long wheelbase) but then they have to carry two kids!

Put it this way - our Bugaboo Gecko and the Maclaren Techno wry got for the Australia trip have a footprint different of about 1-2" width & length, if that. That the Maclaren is a fold up is only possible because it's only a pushchair, not a convertible pram-buggy-pushchair thing.

I suspect that what throws people's perceptions out are things like the chunky tyres.

Oh, and the Gecko is off-road capable thanks to it's chunky back wheels  Was a godsend in the snow.


----------



## Kanda (Feb 15, 2011)

editor said:


> Well, they were MASSIVE in Edwardian times, shrunk down in size over the years, and although there's still loads of modest pushchairs/buggies about, there has been something of a trend for what appear to be offroad-capable prams that seem to echo some characteristics of 4x4 sports vehicles.


 
That's kinda what I just said isn't it?


----------



## tommers (Feb 15, 2011)

Oh god, now the prams are the wrong size.  And the tyres are too big.  Where can I go for a skinny macchiato without having to brave hordes of braying yummy mummies who are all probably middle class with their uncontrollable kids?

All I want is a fairtrade organic mochachocachipachino!  Is that really too much to ask?!?!


----------



## Private Storm (Feb 15, 2011)

ernestolynch said:


> What the frig is a flat white?



http://tinyurl.com/3xlcc6a

First link


----------



## twistedAM (Feb 15, 2011)

Private Storm said:


> http://tinyurl.com/3xlcc6a
> 
> First link



So it's just a fucking latte in a cup.

Thanks for saving me  time though


----------



## kyser_soze (Feb 15, 2011)

I'd already answered it in #173.


----------



## Private Storm (Feb 15, 2011)

twistedAM said:


> Thanks for saving me  time though



Pleasure


----------



## nick h. (Feb 15, 2011)

twistedAM said:


> So it's just a fucking latte in a cup.
> 
> Thanks for saving me  time though


 
It tastes different - try it. Even a bad flat white is stronger than a latte because it has less milk. A good one has a lovely nose and the first sip rocks your socks off.


----------



## twistedAM (Feb 15, 2011)

nick h. said:


> It tastes different - try it. Even a bad flat white is stronger than a latte because it has less milk. A good one has a lovely nose and the first sip rocks your socks off.



Milk in coffee makes me gag. I can handle a macchiato but that's it.
Only commented on it cos I'm mesmerised by all the terminology and technology surrounding coffee these days.


----------



## ernestolynch (Feb 15, 2011)

Emperor's new brews,


----------



## twistedAM (Feb 15, 2011)

ernestolynch said:


> Emperor's new brews,



Not surprising given the mark-up and general gullibility.


----------



## gaijingirl (Feb 15, 2011)

Tea's a much nicer drink anyway... 


*scarpers*


----------



## ernestolynch (Feb 15, 2011)

Ipads, snoods, manbags, tweets, lattes, apps, what happened to the men in this country? 

Effetism.


----------



## killer b (Feb 15, 2011)

They're probably gay ern.


----------



## Belushi (Feb 15, 2011)

I was in Federation Coffee this afternoon as it happens so thought I'd try a flat white. Nice enough but too milky for my tastes really.


----------



## killer b (Feb 15, 2011)

Although, the only people I've met who wear snoods are rugged outdoor types. Us city dwelling metrosexuals tend to go for a narrow scarf instead.


----------



## TruXta (Feb 15, 2011)

ernestolynch said:


> Ipads, snoods, manbags, tweets, lattes, apps, what happened to the men in this country?
> 
> Effetism.


 
Racist.


----------



## fortyplus (Feb 15, 2011)

and while we're on about coffee, what is this "lartay" thing?


----------



## twistedAM (Feb 15, 2011)

fortyplus said:


> and while we're on about coffee, what is this "lartay" thing?



Coffee with lard.


----------



## lordnoise (Feb 15, 2011)

twistedAM said:


> Coffee with lard.



Skinny lartays made with skimmed lard then ?


----------



## killer b (Feb 15, 2011)

served in a narrow glass.


----------



## twistedAM (Feb 15, 2011)

lordnoise said:


> Skinny lartays made with skimmed lard then ?



Lard from a veal calf.


----------



## lordnoise (Feb 15, 2011)

twistedAM said:


> Lard from a veal calf.


 
Wash your Gaggia out with soap and water !


----------



## twistedAM (Feb 16, 2011)

lordnoise said:


> Wash your Gaggia out with soap and water !


 

Sssshhhh. You just gave away Starbuck's frappacino recipe.


----------



## gabi (Feb 16, 2011)

brixton starbucks is better than federation anyway. seriously. less of the yummy pretentious mummy about it.


----------



## paolo (Feb 16, 2011)

gabi said:


> brixton starbucks is better than federation anyway. seriously. less of the yummy pretentious mummy about it.


 
How do you rate the coffee?


----------



## nick h. (Feb 16, 2011)

gabi said:


> brixton starbucks is better than federation anyway. seriously. less of the yummy pretentious mummy about it.


 
Heresy! Where's my deckchair?


----------



## Belushi (Feb 16, 2011)

There was a young Mum in Federation yesterday afternoon. She didn't seem pretentious, and the child was beautifully behaved.


----------



## T & P (Feb 16, 2011)

ernestolynch said:


> Ipads, snoods, manbags, tweets, lattes, apps, what happened to the men in this country?
> 
> Effetism.


 I bet they read The Guardian too.


----------



## gabi (Feb 16, 2011)

its coffee... the guy who usually serves me does a pretty good job actually. starbucks' practice of adapting individual stores to fit in with their local environs seems to work, shock, horror... i know thats sacrilege.. but.. just my experience..


----------



## nick h. (Feb 16, 2011)

I walked in one day and walked straight out again. I didn't like the grubby, transient Victoria Coach Station feel of it. But then I am pretty antisocial. Especially before I've had my coffee.


----------



## ernestolynch (Feb 16, 2011)

No you're just a twat.


----------



## Belushi (Feb 16, 2011)

.


----------



## jakejb79 (Feb 16, 2011)

I like Starbucks, had a lovely Peppermint Mocha today


----------



## editor (Feb 16, 2011)

jakejb79 said:


> I like Starbucks, had a lovely Peppermint Mocha today


That's a bit like going in a pub and asking for a carrot cake and custard flavour ale.


----------



## Belushi (Feb 16, 2011)

.


----------



## aussw9 (Feb 18, 2011)

editor said:


> That's a bit like going in a pub and asking for a carrot cake and custard flavour ale.


----------



## Mrs Redboots (Feb 18, 2011)

paolo999 said:


> How do you rate the coffee?


 
I don't normally go into Starbucks - I object to being charged nearly £2 to dip a teabag into a mug of not-boiling water - but I did get a filter coffee there the other day when they were offering one for free if you printed out a token, and it was seriously nice!  Hot, strong, and just how I like it.


----------



## miss minnie (Feb 18, 2011)

leanderman said:


> I am a fan of Federation flat whites. Put Starbucks to shame.
> 
> However, I have gone off Goodbench, after they told me and a friend we could not bring in prams, despite the shop having just two customers.
> 
> To add insult, my friend was not allowed to change a dry nappy in the corner.


I had some time to kill around lunch so tried GoodBench for the first time.  They provide a box full of toys and books so can't be all that child-unfriendly.

Sorry, but as far as having babies being changed openly in eating establishments (no matter how dry the nappy) - no thank you.


----------



## Thora (Feb 18, 2011)

I don't understand why you would change a dry nappy anyway - if it was clean you wouldn't need to change it, if it was dirty then go to the toilets.


----------



## editor (Feb 18, 2011)

Thora said:


> I don't understand why you would change a dry nappy anyway - if it was clean you wouldn't need to change it, if it was dirty then go to the toilets.


Exactly.


----------



## leanderman (Feb 18, 2011)

[QUOTE I don't understand why you would change a dry nappy anyway - if it was clean you wouldn't need to change it, if it was dirty then go to the toilets. .[/QUOTE]



editor said:


> Exactly.



true - what i meant say was that the nappy had not been 'soiled'. it may well have been damp


----------



## Thora (Feb 18, 2011)

Very inappropriate to change a nappy in a cafe!  Why not go to the loos?


----------



## editor (Feb 18, 2011)

I'm no stranger to changing nappies but I can't think why I'd ever want to do it in a small, busy cafe.


----------



## ShiftyBagLady (Feb 18, 2011)

Some toilets (and I should think small places in particular) don't have changing facilities.


----------



## Thora (Feb 18, 2011)

A cafe isn't a changing facility either though.  Take a fold-up changing mat and change the nappy on the floor.


----------



## ShiftyBagLady (Feb 18, 2011)

On the floor in their toilet?
Yes, reasonable enough though I should think that I would prefer not to change a child on the floor of a toilet so I can see why the woman in question asked if she could change the child where she was


----------



## gaijingirl (Feb 18, 2011)

I mentioned it earlier on (not to sound too pogofish) - but there aren't changing facilities there - none of these shops have toilets.  There are toilets for traders.  There are nearby (but actually not that nearby Goodbench - nearby _some_ of the eateries) public toilets which have a baby changing area but I have never once seen it open - and I tend to use those toilets quite a bit whilst shopping in the market.  And whilst they may be nearby - it's not near in terms of leaking nappies.


----------



## killer b (Feb 18, 2011)

i've never known a wet nappy to leak so badly it can't wait a bit tbf.


----------



## Thora (Feb 18, 2011)

The last place you should be changing a leaky nappy is in a cafe where people are eating and drinking though!


----------



## gaijingirl (Feb 18, 2011)

Yes - that's (one of the reasons) why I said that the cafes there are not really suitable for babies earlier on in this thread.


----------



## Winot (Feb 18, 2011)

A wet disposable nappy can easily be changed without any hygiene risk to others in the vicinity.  I recognise though that those who don't realise this might think 'yuck', and that the cafe might not like it.


----------



## Ms T (Feb 18, 2011)

^^ 

Wot Thora said.


----------



## miss minnie (Feb 18, 2011)

Winot said:


> A wet disposable nappy can easily be changed without any hygiene risk to others in the vicinity.  I recognise though that those who don't realise this might think 'yuck', and that the cafe might not like it.


No thank you, really don't need any whiffs of urine or talcum powder while I eat or drink, cheers.


----------



## Geri (Feb 18, 2011)

jakejb79 said:


> I like Starbucks, had a lovely Peppermint Mocha today


 
Is that coffee or tea? Or neither?


----------



## killer b (Feb 18, 2011)

it's a chocolate-y coffee, with mint in to disguise the taste of the vile coffee even further.


----------



## miss minnie (Feb 18, 2011)

Like an After Eight melting in a mug of Nescafe.  That nice.


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Feb 19, 2011)

Winot said:


> A wet disposable nappy can easily be changed without any hygiene risk to others in the vicinity.  I recognise though that those who don't realise this might think 'yuck', and that the cafe might not like it.


I would never have considered changing a nappy in those circumstances. Ever. Not with my children or grandchildren. I think it displays a breathtaking disregard for people eating & drinking in the vicinity. It's nothing to do with a 'hygiene risk'. It's to do with manners (ie consideration for others).


----------



## Winot (Feb 19, 2011)

Mrs Magpie said:


> I would never have considered changing a nappy in those circumstances. Ever. Not with my children or grandchildren. I think it displays a breathtaking disregard for people eating & drinking in the vicinity. It's nothing to do with a 'hygiene risk'. It's to do with manners (ie consideration for others).


 
You can turn down the outrage: I wouldn't do it either.


----------



## Winot (Feb 19, 2011)

(double post)


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Feb 19, 2011)

Glad to hear it. Still outraged by those who'd even consider it. If I had a Christmas card list you'd be reinstated.


----------



## Mrs Redboots (Feb 20, 2011)

The difficult bit is when there simply isn't anywhere to change a baby - we got stuck with my poor grandson, dreadfully uncomfortable, up in the Brunswick Centre, which appeared not to have anywhere, and in the end we were reduced to my daughter doing a very quick change indeed on the edge of the fountains while I stood there to block the view from passers-by! 

On the other hand, we have never, ever encountered better baby-changing and -feeding facilities than those provided by Westfield, over in Shepherd's Bush.  Luxurious!!!  If they put one of those in the Market, they'd be swamped with parents and babies....


----------



## gaijingirl (Feb 20, 2011)

The Brunswick Centre has a Waitrose and a Giraffe - they'll both have baby-changing (just for future reference).

(eta.. and we've been stuck in some quite awkward places too - train station platforms seem to feature quite often).


----------



## isvicthere? (Jan 14, 2012)

Last two Sats I've been to Federation Coffee 11-ish and it's been so rammed I didn't go in.


----------



## story (Jan 14, 2012)

I never bother going there on the weekend any more, for that reason.


----------



## editor (Jan 14, 2012)

isvicthere? said:


> Last two Sats I've been to Federation Coffee 11-ish and it's been so rammed I didn't go in.


I give it a miss on the weekends. It's still a great place for a coffee in the week though.


----------



## gabi (Jan 14, 2012)

Go to the other one then, on brighton terrace. Went into the market today and even the old bit was heaving with prams, hipsters etc. Er. Hideously white  basically. Very depressing. Its changed so fast, and no, its not progress.


----------



## story (Jan 14, 2012)

(((hideous whites)))


----------



## gabi (Jan 14, 2012)

Its an expression. Widely used. The beauty of brixton lies in its diversity. This new market bullshit is destroying that.


----------



## Rushy (Jan 14, 2012)

gabi said:


> Its an expression. Widely used. The beauty of brixton lies in its diversity. This new market bullshit is destroying that.



I'm not all that familiar with the expression "hideously white" and accept that I am probably missing some of the subtle and clever nuances which apply to it's use and understanding.  However, I am fairly certain that I would feel like a bit of an intolerant twat if I came out with the statement "The Fridge Bar is hideously black". Even if it were an expression used regularly in common parlance.


----------



## Laughing Toad (Jan 14, 2012)

Rushy said:


> I'm not all that familiar with the expression "hideously white" and accept that I am probably missing some of the subtle and clever nuances which apply to it's use and understanding. However, I am fairly certain that I would feel like a bit of an intolerant twat if I came out with the statement "The Fridge Bar is hideously black". Even if it were an expression used regularly in common parlance.



Greg Dyke first used the expression 10 years ago to describe the BBC.


----------



## hendo (Jan 14, 2012)

Laughing Toad said:


> Greg Dyke first used the expression 10 years ago to describe the BBC.



And look what happened to him.


----------



## TruXta (Jan 14, 2012)

Was down in BV around 2.30, was pretty packed with tourists. Good for business of course, but it is a bit off-putting when it's that rammed.


----------



## story (Jan 14, 2012)

Laughing Toad said:


> Greg Dyke first used the expression 10 years ago to describe the BBC.



In gabi's post it strikes me as a stupid, lazy expression that suggests prejudice.

It meant something very different when Dyke said it about the BBC.

What is happening to Brixton is far more about class and money than it is about colour or race.

Trade is up all through the market, not just for the new places but for long-established traders as well.

Brixton has always always been a place that changes: how do you think existing residents felt when the theatre folk moved in, or the Jews?

And anyway idealising and romanticising the way things were is foolish.

There are things about the changes that don't please me, but on balance, at the moment at least, I'm feeling accepting and positive about it.



TruXta said:


> Was down in BV around 2.30, was pretty packed with tourists. Good for business of course, but it is a bit off-putting when it's that rammed.



Apparently Brixton was in Time Out this week. The traders are not unhappy about it.

I reckon it's going to be ker-razy over the summer.

There are still plenty of places to go that have not been discovered yet. How about all those cafes on Station Road?


----------



## quimcunx (Jan 14, 2012)

edit.  not for here.


----------



## leanderman (Jan 14, 2012)

If you think Brixton Village is 'hideously white' and touristy, try Borough Market. 

If it gets like that, even a 'gentrifier' like me will despair.


----------



## nagapie (Jan 14, 2012)

I was one of those people being hideously white at Federation this morning. As a South African I also don't mind being called hideously white as I'm well acquainted with the negatives of belonging to my race. Thankfully I had at least left my pushchair at home.


----------



## uk benzo (Jan 14, 2012)

I've given up on Federation coffee. On several occassions I've had to wait more than 15 minutes to get served my cappuccino. For £2.50, it's not worth the wait.

I now get my coffee fix from The Breadroom or San Marinos... not as good as Federation, but cheaper and without the waiting times.


----------



## quimcunx (Jan 14, 2012)

Cafe Sitifis coffee is delicious IMO. They are just off coldharbour lane before the dogstar.

I went to Federation for the first time a few weeks ago.  It was very nice IIRC.  I had a* bisuit too.

*two biscuits.


----------



## nagapie (Jan 14, 2012)

Cafe Sitifis is great but you can't beat BV if you've got a toddler as there's loads of place for them to run around. Hence the high number of pesky pushchairs.


----------



## boohoo (Jan 14, 2012)

I was being hideously white at Brick box this evening and that french and grace place on Thursday night. Enjoying trying all the different foods at reasonable prices.


----------



## boohoo (Jan 14, 2012)

gabi said:


> Go to the other one then, on brighton terrace. Went into the market today and even the old bit was heaving with prams, hipsters etc. Er. Hideously white basically. Very depressing. Its changed so fast, and no, its not progress.



Hideously white is a crap term. Me as a white local, tend to talk about it as an influx from Guardian reading Herne Hill, Dulwich and all the other more middle class surrounding areas. Some of that diversity is good. When I was a kid , we didn't have so many Asian market stall people and I really don't think we had a chinese supermarket. We didn't have the south American population and the Portuguese were still sorting out Vauxhall. We didn't have all the orientals working the nail bars and the Africans were in small numbers. Oh, and there was a lot more Irish around. There was not so much evidence of the Muslim community as there is evident in the local shops. If we had kept it as it was back in the 1980s, it would probably be fairly Irish and West Indian with a sprinkling of other cultures.

So personally, I think Brixton is more diverse than it has ever been. And throwing in a few "hideously white" people just adds to the accepting multi-cultural place that Brixton is.


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## Laughing Toad (Jan 15, 2012)

boohoo said:


> And throwing in a few "hideously white" people just adds to the accepting multi-cultural place that Brixton is.



Describing a corporation as 'hideously white', as Greg Dyke did, is acceptable. Describing an area of Brixton Village as 'hideously white', as Gabi did, is acceptable. Describing _people_ as hideously white is offensive.

And calling people 'oriental' is offensive too.


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## boohoo (Jan 15, 2012)

Laughing Toad said:


> Describing a corporation as 'hideously white', as Greg Dyke did, is acceptable. Describing an area of Brixton Village as 'hideously white', as Gabi did, is acceptable. Describing _people_ as hideously white is offensive.
> 
> And calling people 'oriental' is offensive too.



With the term oriental, I'm not sure what else to use. I don't like pin pointing people's background if I'm not sure. So I'm not going to say chinese when it's likely many of them might be Vietnamese. Please let me know what the current terminology is. The Americans use the word Asian but I'm not sure that's how the Vietnamese, Chinese and other Far Eastern communities describe themselves.

What would happen if we used the term "hideously black"? Is that not offensive? Is it only offensive if we include the word people and not an area?


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## ymu (Jan 15, 2012)

boohoo said:


> With the term oriental, I'm not sure what else to use. I don't like pin pointing people's background if I'm not sure. So I'm not going to say chinese when it's likely many of them might be Vietnamese. Please let me know what the current terminology is. The Americans use the word Asian but I'm not sure that's how the Vietnamese, Chinese and other Far Eastern communities describe themselves.
> 
> What would happen if we used the term "hideously black"? Is that not offensive? Is it only offensive if we include the word people and not an area?


South-East Asian is fine. (In the US "Asian" usually means South-East Asian whereas in the UK "Asian" usually means South Asian.)

I might use the term "hideously black" to describe the US prison population - it is not a good thing that [poor] black people are over-represented there any more than it is that white [middle-class] people are over-represented at the BBC. Given it's origin, "hideously white" is a term that refers to both race and class. I have used it to describe the areas we mostly find ourselves living in since moving onto a boat - the canalside has been colonised by the rich, and guess what - they're nearly all white. The kind of place where my partner feels like a freakshow because people act like they've never seen a black person before, where security guards follow him around shops and where women clutch their handbags tighter as their husbands move protectively in front of them.

It's often interesting to see who gets hung up on the perceived anti-white racism of the term whilst completely ignoring the point being made... (not aiming that at you personally at all).

And of course it's offensive if it's used to describe people rather than a place.


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## London_Calling (Jan 15, 2012)

Laughing Toad said:


> Describing a corporation as 'hideously white', as Greg Dyke did, is acceptable.


It might have been 10 years ago but it's less helpful today after the influx from eastern Europe; the BBC is as 'hideously white' as is manual labour in the farming industry.


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## boohoo (Jan 15, 2012)

ymu said:


> South-East Asian is fine. (In the US "Asian" usually means South-East Asian whereas in the UK "Asian" usually means South Asian.)
> 
> I might use the term "hideously black" to describe the US prison population - it is not a good thing that black people are over-represented there any more than it is that white [middle-class] people are over-represented at the BBC. Given it's origin, "hideously white" is a term that refers to both race and class. I have used it to describe the areas we mostly find ourselves living in since moving onto a boat - the canalside has been colonised by the rich, and guess what - they're nearly all white. The kind of place where my partner feels like a freakshow because people act like they've never seen a black person before, where security guards follow him around shops and where women clutch their handbags tighter as their husbands move protectively in front of them.
> 
> ...



You see "hideously white" to me is just referring to white, even if the intention is also about class (which I get from the BBC reference). When I lived in a solidly white working class area, any non-white people or actually anything unconventional was stared at (or abused!). I have seen both working class and middle class white people look utterly petrified in Brixton because they are just not use to so many non-white people.

Anyway... this is all a bigger discussion and slight de-rail from the original topic.

I'm quite excited to see Brixton Village being used and full of people. And actually I saw lots of not hideously white middle class people eating out there (or maybe they were only in Brick Box). Also alot of the people running these new eateries are not white - and the white ones, should we tell them to get back to their Clapham ghettos?

I'd much rather diversity in the use of Brixton retail units than another pound shop, supermarket (tescos or otherwise), wig shop.... etc.


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## ymu (Jan 15, 2012)

You can't really understand a newly-coined term taken out of context though. "Oppressed white male" is a similar term - it means "oppressed white, middle-class, able-bodied, heterosexual male" and is used to refer to anyone belonging to the more privileged group (in whatever context) who tries to equate their own experience of discrimination with that of the less privileged group(s). For example, men who object to _Loose Women_ not merely on the grounds that it is sexist crap - which it is - but further insist that men would never be allowed to get away with similar programming  and they are thus now the victims of discrimination that they themselves are no longer free to practice.

Kinda like all these newly passionate anti-racists lining up to condemn Diane Abbott ...


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## Maggot (Jan 15, 2012)

Laughing Toad said:


> Describing a corporation as 'hideously white', as Greg Dyke did, is acceptable. Describing an area of Brixton Village as 'hideously white', as Gabi did, is acceptable. Describing _people_ as hideously white is offensive.


 But when you are describing the area, surely you are describing the people in that area too.

Unless the term is referring to the buildings or something then I can't see the difference between describing the area, and the people in it.




			
				Laughing Toad said:
			
		

> And calling people 'oriental' is offensive too.


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## London_Calling (Jan 15, 2012)

wot about hideously oriental?


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## ymu (Jan 15, 2012)

how about hideously stupid?


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## editor (Jan 15, 2012)

Or hideously hideous?


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## Badgers (Jan 15, 2012)

Or stupidly stupid?


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## ajdown (Jan 15, 2012)

boohoo said:


> and the white ones, should we tell them to get back to their Clapham ghettos?



I'm sure if we told anyone else to "go home where they came from" it wouldn't go down too well on here - so why should it be fine to be offensive towards white people?


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## TruXta (Jan 15, 2012)

They live in Clapham and Wandsworth, they deserve no better.


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## story (Jan 15, 2012)

Badgers said:


> Or stupidly stupid?


 
stupidly hideous


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## story (Jan 15, 2012)

hideous kinky


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## story (Jan 15, 2012)

kinky english


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## quimcunx (Jan 15, 2012)

english breakfast.


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## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Jan 15, 2012)

boohoo said:


> and the white ones, should we tell them to get back to their Clapham ghettos?



Yes, they're the wrong sort of middle class white people. They're ruining the diversity for the right sort of middle class white people, like gabi.


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## DJWrongspeed (Jan 15, 2012)

If you want to have quiet cuppa @ Federation on saturday go b4 9.30, it's just possible. As for all these other folk turning up, what do you expect? it's a top notch artisan coffee bar not a stall selling cow foot.


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