# Anglophone Welsh Only: Would You Feel More Welsh If You Spoke Welsh?



## phildwyer (May 19, 2010)

Anyone is free to comment, but please do _not_ answer the poll unless you are an Anglophone Welsh person.

Would you feel "more Welsh" if you spoke Welsh?

Public poll to follow (thought it should be public to prevent unqualified imposters voting)...


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## tarannau (May 19, 2010)

I'd like to speak a little more Welsh tbh. I learnt a little as an adult in Aberystwyth, but it wasn't a part of my childhood unsurprisingly.

I'm far from the world's greatest patriot, but it seems remiss, if not self-defeating to not take the opportunity to learn the language of your home country.


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## mattie (May 19, 2010)

My Irish mother speaks not a word of Irish, which was simply an end result of her circumstances.

Although the nuns did try to beat it into her.


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## editor (May 19, 2010)

Not really sure how you _couldn't_ feel a little bit more Welsh if you're speaking the language of the land and able to understand the old folk songs, the poetry, the books and the place names, to be honest.


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## Proper Tidy (May 19, 2010)

editor said:


> Not really sure how you _couldn't_ feel a little bit more Welsh if you're speaking the language of the land and able to understand the old folk songs, the poetry, the books and the place names, to be honest.



But what is Wales and Welshness? Isn't it everything, surely?

By the same token, those who can't read English very well can't enjoy the bulk of Dylan Thomas' work, or for that matter the majority of today's output from Welsh writers, poets etc - yet would we say that Welsh monoglots are less Welsh that people who are bilingual?


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## phildwyer (May 19, 2010)

editor said:


> Not really sure how you _couldn't_ feel a little bit more Welsh if you're speaking the language of the land



The land has no language.

The people have a language.  And the language of 80% of Welsh people is English.


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## editor (May 19, 2010)

Proper Tidy said:


> But what is Wales and Welshness? Isn't it everything, surely?
> 
> By the same token, those who can't read English very well can't enjoy the bulk of Dylan Thomas' work, or for that matter the majority of today's output from Welsh writers, poets etc - yet would we say that Welsh monoglots are less Welsh that people who are bilingual?


It's a personal thing.  

Would I have felt a little bit ore Welsh if I could have gone into a rural pub in Cardigan and chatted to locals in Welsh? Yes, I would. 

That doesn't mean I don't feel Welsh already, of course.


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## phildwyer (May 19, 2010)

editor said:


> and able to understand the old folk songs, the poetry, the books and the place names, to be honest.



That's not my culture.  Anglophone Wales has its own distinct culture, and a very rich one it is too.  That's my culture, and I rather suspect it is also yours.


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## editor (May 19, 2010)

phildwyer said:


> That's not my culture.  Anglophone Wales has its own distinct culture, and a very rich one it is too.  That's my culture, and I rather suspect it is also yours.


What a strange outlook.

I've booked Welsh speaking bands at Offline and never felt they were part of some mysterious 'other' culture that had no relation to mine. We're all Welsh. Some of us speak the language, some don't. It's hardly the great divide.


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## phildwyer (May 19, 2010)

editor said:


> the old folk songs



Phil Tanner, Wales's greatest-ever folk singer, sang only in English:

http://www.folkwales.org.uk/arcgopt3.html



editor said:


> the books



Dylan Thomas, Wales's greatest-ever writer, wrote only in English.


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## editor (May 19, 2010)

phildwyer said:


> Phil Tanner, Wales's greatest-ever folk singer, sang only in English:
> 
> http://www.folkwales.org.uk/arcgopt3.html
> 
> ...


Is this ignorance your attempt to troll? Or part of some sort of weird anti-Welsh language obsession?

There's been loads of hugely acclaimed Welsh-speaking poets, writers and musicians, with a rich culture dating back centuries. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Literature_of_Wales_(Welsh_language)


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## Proper Tidy (May 19, 2010)

editor said:


> Is this ignorance your attempt to troll? Or part of some sort of weird anti-Welsh language obsession?
> 
> There's been loads of hugely acclaimed Welsh-speaking poets, writers and musicians, with a rich culture dating back centuries.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Literature_of_Wales_(Welsh_language)



No doubt, but the same can be said of English-speaking Welsh poets, writers and musicians.

I personally think saying some people are more Welsh than others is dodgy territory, same as saying some people are more British than others would be. Can see where you're coming from, as a personal thing, but still.


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## phildwyer (May 19, 2010)

editor said:


> Is this ignorance your attempt to troll? Or part of some sort of weird anti-Welsh language obsession?
> 
> There's been loads of hugely acclaimed Welsh-speaking poets, writers and musicians, with a rich culture dating back centuries.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Literature_of_Wales_(Welsh_language)



I'm well aware of that.

Wales has two languages, and thus two cultures.  Neither is "more Welsh" than the other.  In fact the idea that there are degrees of Welshness is pathetic and absurd.


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## phildwyer (May 19, 2010)

Proper Tidy said:


> I personally think saying some people are more Welsh than others is dodgy territory, same as saying some people are more British than others would be.



Indeed.  A glance at recent European history shows where such ideas can lead.  Not to say that they always or inevitably lead there, but it pays to be vigilant like.


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## editor (May 19, 2010)

phildwyer said:


> Indeed.  A glance at recent European history shows where such ideas can lead.  Not to say that they always or inevitably lead there, but it pays to be vigilant like.


What parallels with modern European history are you trying to draw here and what, specifically, should Welsh people be 'vigilant' about?


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## cesare (May 19, 2010)

Sospan fac*h* yn berwi ar y tân 

See me.


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## phildwyer (May 19, 2010)

editor said:


> What parallels with modern European history are you trying to draw here and what, specifically, should Welsh people be 'vigilant' about?



Racism.

Nationalism has often historically tipped over into racism.  For example the idea that some Germans were more "more German" than others was a leading ideological component behind the rise of the Nazis.

Note that I do not imply that Welsh cultural nationalism is racist at present.  I do however believe that the concept of some people being "more Welsh" than others has the potential to evolve in a racist direction if other circumstances permit.  

That is why Welsh people should be vigilant about it.  Apart from the fact that it is inherently irrational.


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## editor (May 19, 2010)

phildwyer said:


> Note that I do not imply that Welsh cultural nationalism is racist at present.  I do however believe that the concept of some people being "more Welsh" than others has the potential to evolve in a racist direction if other circumstances permit.


What a load of hoary old cobblers you spout, phil.


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## phildwyer (May 19, 2010)

editor said:


> What a load of hoary old cobblers you spout, phil.



What a _twp_ response, Ed.


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## niclas (May 19, 2010)

phildwyer said:


> Racism.
> 
> Nationalism has often historically tipped over into racism.  For example the idea that some Germans were more "more German" than others was a leading ideological component behind the rise of the Nazis.
> 
> ...



Phew, for a minute I thought you were going to expose the Urdd as the Welsh Hitler Youth... but we should all remain vigilant of course. Have you seen that Elfyn Llwyd's moustache?

Nationalism comes in many guises - Mandela and Gandhi were nationalists and James Connolly was for national liberation. 

Your snide insinuations are smears that you can't back up with any proof.


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## editor (May 20, 2010)

phildwyer said:


> What a _twp_ response, Ed.


Careful with that language, phil! Start using any more Welsh words and before you'll know it you'll be goose-stepping down the Boulevard De Nantes demanding the deportation of the Englisch.

From little Taffy acorns etc etc....


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## littlebabyjesus (May 20, 2010)

editor said:


> From little Taffy acorns etc etc....




I went to a holiday camp in Scotland when I was 10 and I was called taffy by the other kids there. I had to ask my dad what they meant. I'd never heard it before – the one place nobody will call you taffy is Wales, I suppose.

Made me feel Welsh, though...


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## ddraig (May 20, 2010)

seriously dwyer
fuck off with this shit


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## editor (May 20, 2010)

So there we have it. A clear and emphatic two thirds of voters here say that they would feel a little bit more Welsh if they spoke the language and dwyer's been proved wrong.


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## phildwyer (May 20, 2010)

If it drives Ddraig into one of his rages, you _know_ it makes sense.


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## phildwyer (May 20, 2010)

editor said:


> So there we have it. A clear and emphatic two thirds of voters here say that they would feel a little bit more Welsh if they spoke the language and dwyer's been proved wrong.



Ahem.  Not so fast if you don't mind.  

Not only is the poll in its infancy, but several of the votes will have to be discounted.  

Recall that the poll was strictly limited to Anglophone Welsh people.  And yet we find Ernesto and Ddraig among the voters, and both of them are known to be Welsh-speakers.  Furthermore, since when was Santino a Welshman?

Once the votes have been adjusted to exclude the frauds, I find the tallies just about equal.  So far.


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## cesare (May 20, 2010)

I'm ½ Welsh and non-Welsh speaking. Am I allowed to vote?


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## phildwyer (May 20, 2010)

cesare said:


> I'm ½ Welsh and non-Welsh speaking. Am I allowed to vote?



Yes.


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## cesare (May 20, 2010)

phildwyer said:


> Yes.



Thanks


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## editor (May 20, 2010)

phildwyer said:


> Ahem.  Not so fast if you don't mind.
> 
> Not only is the poll in its infancy, but several of the votes will have to be discounted.
> 
> ...


LOL at the pitiful desperation. 

Even if the poll results were equal (which they're not) your claims have been harpooned as it's clear a lot of Welsh people most certainly would feel a little bit more Welsh if the spoke Welsh.

Now eat your humble pie.


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## ddraig (May 20, 2010)

phildwyer said:


> If it drives Ddraig into one of his rages, you _know_ it makes sense.



i was yawning actually
you really are not as clever as you think you know!


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## phildwyer (May 20, 2010)

cesare said:


> Thanks



Oh, you said _half_ Welsh?

Sorry, you can't vote after all.


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## cesare (May 20, 2010)

phildwyer said:


> Oh, you said _half_ Welsh?
> 
> Sorry, you can't vote after all.



Too late  You can halve my vote if you like.


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## editor (May 20, 2010)

phildwyer said:


> Oh, you said _half_ Welsh?
> 
> Sorry, you can't vote after all.


Double LOL.


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## phildwyer (May 20, 2010)

editor said:


> Even if the poll results were equal (which they're not) your claims have been harpooned as it's clear a lot of Welsh people most certainly would feel a little bit more Welsh if the spoke Welsh.



I never said they wouldn't.

Now you will please wait until all the votes are in before leaping to wild conclusions?


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## phildwyer (May 20, 2010)

cesare said:


> Too late  You can halve my vote if you like.



I'm afraid that in cases like this, your vote counts for the other side.

And of course fraudulent votes count _twice_ for the other side.

I don't make the rules.


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## ddraig (May 20, 2010)

and you decide when of course!
tiresome tiresome tiresome


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## cesare (May 20, 2010)

phildwyer said:


> I'm afraid that in cases like this, your vote counts for the other side.
> 
> And of course fraudulent votes count _twice_ for the other side.
> 
> I don't make the rules.



 If you have to reassign my vote, you can give it to the saucepan.


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## fogbat (May 20, 2010)

Wouldn't "Anglophone-Only Welsh" make more sense?

I'm Welsh and I speak English, so should qualify.


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## samk (May 20, 2010)

I'm 1/4 welsh and I voted


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## Infidel Castro (May 20, 2010)

I went YES, but only in that it would be a different kind of Welshness, and having two kinds of Welshness would amount to more Welshness, if you see what i mean.  But then, I'm not advocating that i have to learn Welsh to be 'proper' Welsh, just 'different' Welsh.  I don't occupy the world of the Welsh-speaker and so I can't experience the benefit of that (and what is quite often a very different culture), but as Welsh-speakers are as separate as we are from them (culturally) neither can they properly experience a non-Welsh-speaking way of life, so they equally cannot understand what being Welsh is for the large majority of us in Wales.  

Actually, back to the OP, being bilingual does not necessarily preclude an understanding of both cultures, so maybe I should have voted NO.  I'm getting confused now...


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## fogbat (May 20, 2010)

If this ends up being the extended setup for another proof of god's existence, I'm going to be _awfully_ impressed


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## editor (May 20, 2010)

It doesn't need that much thinking about, to be honest. It's just a simple question: if you could suddenly start speaking Welsh and - say - could start enjoying conversations with the locals in a Cardigan boozer - would you feel a tiny bit more connected to your homeland, and therefore a little bit more 'Welsh'? I would., no question.

When I was staying in west Wales, I wished I could speak Welsh.


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## Infidel Castro (May 20, 2010)

It could be seen as an admission that I'm lacking some vital Welshness by not speaking Welsh.  I think that's tosh.  It's more like Welsh+ I suppose.


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## fogbat (May 20, 2010)

Cymraeg dau-pwynt-ddim


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## Infidel Castro (May 20, 2010)

fogbat said:


> Cymraeg dau-pwynt-ddim


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## editor (May 20, 2010)

Infidel Castro said:


> It could be seen as an admission that I'm lacking some vital Welshness by not speaking Welsh.  I think that's tosh.  It's more like Welsh+ I suppose.


Not really. It's just how you might _personally_ feel, that's all.

Would I feel a tiny bit more connected to Wales if I could read and speak the language, converse with the locals in obscure little boozers and understand the place names ? 

I reckon so. How about you?

But my current inability to do so doesn't make me feel like I'm not still totally Welsh.


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## Belushi (May 20, 2010)

I spoke Welsh as a child but I've been in England since I was 11 and have nearly all of it; which I do regret as I grow older. If I were ever to live in Wales again I would relearn the language.


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## Infidel Castro (May 20, 2010)

editor said:


> I reckon so. How about you?



I'd be inclined to feel more Welsh if I knew more of the history and geography of the place, as well as language, so the language would be a contributory factor to a more generalised increase.  But yes, I suppose it would .

And yet the outside stereotype of Wales in mining, rugby and singing hymns, none of them overtly linked to the language.  What a palaver!


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## editor (May 20, 2010)

Infidel Castro said:


> And yet the outside stereotype of Wales in mining, rugby and singing hymns, none of them overtly linked to the language.  What a palaver!


I'd say that Welsh place names and the language are very much linked to the stereotype of Wales.

And leeks.


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## mattie (May 20, 2010)

editor said:


> I'd say that Welsh place names and the language are very much linked to the stereotype of Wales.
> 
> And leeks.



Don't forget the Dragons.



We've all been to Swansea on a saturday night.


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## zog (May 20, 2010)

Oh noes. I wasn't born in Wales and I voted. I have however spent more time here than in any other country so I may have caught it.

I spent some time growing up in the NW of Ireland where gaelic was the 1st language and I know as much of that as I know Welsh - not much.

Personally I could be fluent in both and not really feel much more Welsh or Irish, but I may just be odd (or English).


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## Brockway (May 20, 2010)

phildwyer said:


> Phil Tanner, Wales's greatest-ever folk singer, sang only in English:
> 
> http://www.folkwales.org.uk/arcgopt3.html
> 
> ...



Most famous, yes, but "greatest"? Bow locks.


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## Brockway (May 20, 2010)

phildwyer said:


> That's not my culture.  Anglophone Wales has its own distinct culture, and a very rich one it is too.  That's my culture, and I rather suspect it is also yours.



Well, if there are two distinct cultures in Wales based upon language (your view not mine), then having access to both would, surely, broaden your Welsh cultural experience.

Give us a few examples of what defines you culturally from a Welsh point of view, and then let's see if we all agree with your choices.


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## Infidel Castro (May 20, 2010)

editor said:


> I'd say that Welsh place names and the language are very much linked to the stereotype of Wales.
> 
> And leeks.



Yes and no.  And yes to leeks.

On the OP, I've come to a firm YES, but it's not a straightforward one to answer.  It needs some thoughts to quantify a lot of stuff that's hard to explain without demeaning/degrading what it might mean to be Welsh as an English-speaker.  It can be done, but it's the typical Welsh problem - we're completely schizophrenic.


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## phildwyer (May 20, 2010)

editor said:


> But my current inability to do so doesn't make me feel like I'm not still totally Welsh.



But if you are already "totally" Welsh, you could not possibly be any _more_ Welsh.


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## editor (May 21, 2010)

phildwyer said:


> But if you are already "totally" Welsh, you could not possibly be any _more_ Welsh.


I'm totally Cardiff City. But if I put on a CCFC shirt, I feel _even more_ CCFC.  See how it works? My love for Cardiff City is infinite.

Your poll isn't really working out like you hoped, is it?


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## LilMissHissyFit (May 21, 2010)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I went to a holiday camp in Scotland when I was 10 and I was called taffy by the other kids there. I had to ask my dad what they meant. I'd never heard it before – the one place nobody will call you taffy is Wales, I suppose.
> 
> Made me feel Welsh, though...



the worst thing you can call a jack is a taffy

In answer to the original post.. nope I wouldnt feel "more" welsh but I would like to be able to speak welsh.

Id be in favour of all state schools being bilingual ( ie 'welsh' schools) so all children learned the language right from the start as a proper language which was used, not as a tokenistic gesture as it is now which ends with the vast majority of students sitting "short course" GCSE welsh to satisfy a legal requirement which essentially teaches them little of the language and is roundly resented by the kids and its quickly forgotten.

If thats what you wind up with why bother wasting the money teaching it half heartedly to disinterested kids? With the present situation in english medium schools Id favour it being treated like RE and parents being able to opt their children out of it in favour of them being able to spend their time more usefully


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## Proper Tidy (May 21, 2010)

Nah I still don't buy it. I mean, what's Welshness (apart from not strictly speaking being a word)? Being in the North, my view of Wales will be different to somebody in the Valleys, and we'll both see it different again from somebody in the West, particularly North West.

For example, rugby has bollocks all to do with being Welsh for people up here, and most of them would either laugh or take offense if you said 'you would be more Welsh if you liked rugby'.

Having degrees of Welshness just makes it exclusive, like a club with a couple of Druid thugs on the door.


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## Infidel Castro (May 21, 2010)

Proper Tidy said:


> Having degrees of Welshness just makes it exclusive, like a club with a couple of Druid thugs on the door.



I've had that vibe before.  My ex is a Welsh-speaker, and the degrees of Welshness are ridiculous.  The worst is the criticism of how other Welsh-speakers speak, with each area thinking they're correct and others are completely wrong.  That snobbishness made me almost afraid to want to learn.  If anyone is thinking of learning, don't expect support from your dyed-in-the-wool Welsh-speakers.  Some will look right down their noses at you and make you feel like shit.

Back to the OP, I've kind of gone back to a maybe.  It's a nasty question.


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## phildwyer (May 21, 2010)

editor said:


> I'm totally Cardiff City. But if I put on a CCFC shirt, I feel _even more_ CCFC.  See how it works? My love for Cardiff City is infinite.



Unlike your grasp of logic it seems.



editor said:


> Your poll isn't really working out like you hoped, is it?



I had neither hope nor fear of the result.  But it is certainly working out _exactly_ as I predicted:



phildwyer said:


> I think it would be "no" in Cardiff, Newport and the Valleys, and "yes" elsewhere.



So I was absolutely, 100% bang on the nail.  Anyway, this thread has raised some important questions that I feel demand a new and different poll.  Hang on a second...


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## ddraig (May 21, 2010)

such a wriggler phil! how many polls you gonna do til you get your way!


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## editor (May 21, 2010)

phildwyer said:


> Unlike your grasp of logic it seems.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


FFS. You got it wrong. It has been proved beyond all doubt that a large majority of Welsh posters here would feel a little but more Welsh if they spoke the language - exactly as* I* predicted. 

Live with it and spare us any more pointless polls.


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## Random (May 21, 2010)

I'm one sixteenth Welsh. As there are people with less American Indian blood who identify with one of the indigenous nations I think I'm allowed to identify with the indigenous Britons.

Both 'Welsh' and 'Indian' are, of course, insulting names applied by Saxons to genocide victims and I apologise for using them.


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