# 20 year old man dies after being tasered by police



## roctrevezel (Aug 17, 2011)

I have been waiting for this to happen. I have been uneasy about Taser being issued to non-firearms officers ever since some police forces started to do so. (I have no idea if that applies in this case.)
Tasers are not "non-lethal."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cumbria-14553613
*17 August 2011* Last updated at 09:03 

_A man has died after being Tasered by police officers in Cumbria._

_Police were called to Hartington Street, in Barrow, at 18:30 BST on Tuesday, following reports of a man causing a disturbance._

_A Taser was used during the arrest of the man, who was in his 20s, and he later complained of feeling unwell. He was taken to hospital, where he died._


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## 100% masahiko (Aug 17, 2011)

Police are so improperly trained in unarmed combat that they have to rely on crappy taser guns...coppers in this country are a joke.


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## editor (Aug 17, 2011)

100% masahiko said:


> Police are so improperly trained in unarmed combat that they have to rely on crappy taser guns...coppers in this country are a joke.


Wait... you think that every cop should be an expert in unarmed combat and be able to take on _anyone_?

I've no doubt there's shit coppers out there but maybe it might be an idea to get the full story first? For all you know this guy could have been waving a chainsaw about.


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## SpookyFrank (Aug 17, 2011)

You'd think the pigs might keep a lid on the murdering people for a couple of weeks at least, considering what's happened. Is there any way we can get the police done for incitement to riot?


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## 100% masahiko (Aug 17, 2011)

editor said:


> Wait... you think that every cop should be an expert in unarmed combat and be able to take on _anyone_?
> 
> I've no doubt there's shit coppers out there but maybe it might be an idea to get the full story first? For all you know this guy could have been waving a chainsaw about.



True that.
Am jumping to conclusions too soon.


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## editor (Aug 17, 2011)

SpookyFrank said:


> You'd think the pigs might keep a lid on the murdering people for a couple of weeks at least, considering what's happened. Is there any way we can get the police done for incitement to riot?


Again, you know nothing about what actually happened, so it is utterly ridiculous to start slopping around accusations of 'murder.'


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## junglevip (Aug 17, 2011)

editor said:


> Wait... you think that every cop should be an expert in unarmed combat and be able to take on _anyone_?
> 
> I've no doubt there's shit coppers out there but maybe it might be an idea to get the full story first? For all you know this guy could have been waving a chainsaw about.



I dont think its a matter of being an expert in 'unarmed combat' (unfortunate term) but trying more reasonable force might have been a better start. I think that mashico might have been at the roids again. That said, you seem a bit frothy yourself


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## editor (Aug 17, 2011)

junglevip said:


> I dont think its a matter of being an expert in 'unarmed combat' (unfortunate term) but trying more reasonable force might have been a better start. I think that mashico might have been at the roids again


But you've no idea what actually happened yet. The cop may have been a testosterone fuelled beast behaving irresponsibly with trigger happy force. Or perhaps it was a small woman PC being confronted by a dangerous, drug crazed individual juggling knives on fire. Without knowing what happened, no one is any position at all to judge whether appropriate or inappropriate force was used.


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## roctrevezel (Aug 17, 2011)

editor said:


> Again, you know nothing about what actually happened, so it is utterly ridiculous to start slopping around accusations of 'murder.'



Quite. I started this thread because of the calls from rabid right wingers over the last few days for police to be issued with tasers.
I have severe doubts about rank and file non-firearms trained officers being issued with what are described with "non-lethal" weapons which have a record, although rare of not being "non-lethal."
If you have mindset you are using a "non-lethal" weapon you may use it for reasons of making your life easy and not appropriately.


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## silverfish (Aug 17, 2011)

Last time Cumbrian police were in the shit it was for not shooting some fucker who was killing people.

You can't have it both ways

More people have died after I've applied elecktrickary to them than any coppers zapping naughty people..perhaps they should take my heartstart away from me.

Shit happens people die of bee stings, falling kitchen sinks, undiagnosed heart defects, all sorts of shit.

Uk coppers can't kid glove nasty people any more than they do already.


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## junglevip (Aug 17, 2011)

Your a reasonable man Ed, but I think you might be over egging it on this one.


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## Captain Hurrah (Aug 17, 2011)

Barrow is a sad place.


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## junglevip (Aug 17, 2011)

Fuck it! I am gonna join the police service this afternoon and then tazer anyone who looks suspicious.

That will make up for any shortfalls in my ability to handle a physical confrontation


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## editor (Aug 17, 2011)

Captain Hurrah said:


> Barrow is a sad place.


Even sadder now for the victim's family.


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## editor (Aug 17, 2011)

junglevip said:


> Fuck it! I am gonna join the police service this afternoon and then tazer anyone who looks suspicious.


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## roctrevezel (Aug 17, 2011)

junglevip said:


> Fuck it! I am gonna join the police service this afternoon and then tazer anyone who looks suspicious.



It is school holidays, you would soon need your taser re-charged.


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## junglevip (Aug 17, 2011)

editor said:


>



Any chance of a like on this post please?  It'd be nice to get one off the ED.


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## editor (Aug 17, 2011)

Like pleading. Never a pretty sight...


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## editor (Aug 17, 2011)

roctrevezel said:


> It is school holidays, you would soon need your taser re-charged.


They could wear massive black leather backpacks full of batteries. Or get it recharged by lightning bolts.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 17, 2011)

editor said:


> Wait... you think that every cop should be an expert in unarmed combat and be able to take on _anyone_?
> 
> I've no doubt there's shit coppers out there but maybe it might be an idea to get the full story first? For all you know this guy could have been waving a chainsaw about.


no chainsaw appears in the guardian, nw evening mail, bbc or mirror articles on the subject.

but police ARE improperly trained in self-defence, often raising the emotional temperature of an encounter at the best of times, accusing people of being aggressive when they're nothing of the sort, and the officer safety tactics taught at hendon don't look like they're aiming always to calm things down.


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## junglevip (Aug 17, 2011)

editor said:


> Like pleading. Never a pretty sight...



You really know how to hurt someones feelings.  I dont want a like from you if your going to be like that you cruel man.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 17, 2011)

silverfish said:


> Last time Cumbrian police were in the shit it was for not shooting some fucker who was killing people.
> 
> You can't have it both ways
> 
> ...


than any coppers? there've been numerous cases of people in america dying after being tasered. you might want to reconsider your crass post.


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## junglevip (Aug 17, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> no chainsaw appears in the guardian, nw evening mail, bbc or mirror articles on the subject.
> 
> but police ARE improperly trained in self-defence, often raising the emotional temperature of an encounter at the best of times, accusing people of being aggressive when they're nothing of the sort, and the officer safety tactics taught at hendon don't look like they're aiming always to calm things down.



On a serious note; I agree


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## editor (Aug 17, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> no chainsaw appears in the guardian, nw evening mail, bbc or mirror articles on the subject.


So you know the exact circumstances of this incident? Or are you're just as clueless as everyone else?


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## junglevip (Aug 17, 2011)

editor said:


> So you know the exact circumstances of this incident? Or are you're just as clueless as everyone else?



With respect Ed, you sound a bit defensive. (I mean that with respect too)


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## Pickman's model (Aug 17, 2011)

editor said:


> So you know the exact circumstances of this incident? Or are you're just as clueless as everyone else?


there are only a very few people who know 'the exact circumstances' of what happened, and one of them is dead. however, i have referenced four reputable sources which do not support claims of a weapon being used by the victim.


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## Barking_Mad (Aug 17, 2011)

Where i used to live a couple of guys had been fighting in the street, proper kicking lumps out of each other they were. Anyhow, the fighting finished and one of the guys brothers came to drag him home but the guy was obviously hammered and was struggling to get away. His brother held him down in an alley that ran round the side of our car park where a metal fence ran.

They lay struggling for half an hour or so although they were so tired there was nothing happening, basically laid in a heap with one brother holding the other. It turned out that one of my neighbours in the flats had at some point called the police. As the brothers were laid in the alley 3 police cars arrived, half a dozen officers jumped out, failed to ask anyone what was happening (despite the number of people stood around watching) before running down the alley and tazering guy who has been fighting (his brother was dragged off and left untouched.

I've never seen someone tazerd close up before, but it was pretty disturbing stuff. The policeman must have zapped him at least four times, despite the fact there were 6 of them who could quite easily restrained him, handcuffed him and marched him off. The guys mother had turned up and was screaming at the officers that he had a medical/mental problem and that he would listen to her if they just let her speak to him. They ignored her.

I along with several other people went ballistic at the coppers asking what the fuck they thought they were doing. One copper then pulled out a tazer and started pointing it at people telling them to get back.

They were fucking useless, spinless cunts.


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## editor (Aug 17, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> there are only a very few people who know 'the exact circumstances' of what happened, and one of them is dead. however, i have referenced four reputable sources which do not support claims of a weapon being used by the victim.


You've only mentioned them and not linked to the articles and as far as I can see they have no real information about the incident either. So in other words, it's far too early to be jumping to conclusions about 'murder' or improper use of the taser.


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## editor (Aug 17, 2011)

junglevip said:


> With respect Ed, you sound a bit defensive. (I mean that with respect too)


Because I'm not jumping to wild, evidence-free conclusions about murder and improper conduct? I'll take that as a compliment, thanks.


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## TopCat (Aug 17, 2011)

editor said:


> But you've no idea what actually happened yet. The cop may have been a testosterone fuelled beast behaving irresponsibly with trigger happy force. Or perhaps it was a small woman PC being confronted by a dangerous, drug crazed individual juggling knives on fire. Without knowing what happened, no one is any position at all to judge whether appropriate or inappropriate force was used.


Given the polices tendency to lie through their teeth with regard to the circumstances of deaths at their hands this attitude is remarkably forgiving.


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## editor (Aug 17, 2011)

TopCat said:


> Given the polices tendency to lie through their teeth with regard to the circumstances of deaths at their hands this attitude is remarkably forgiving.


 Jumping to wild conclusions of 'murder' really helps no one, you know.


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## gabi (Aug 17, 2011)

> The Independent Police Complaints Commission has been informed.



Thank fuck for that!


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## DotCommunist (Aug 17, 2011)

gabi said:


> Thank fuck for that!


 


all is certain to become clear now


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## pseudonarcissus (Aug 17, 2011)

Captain Hurrah said:


> Barrow is a sad place.


but Hartington Street!!?? what's on Hartington street except for the launderette I used to go to? That was 25 years ago, mind


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## TopCat (Aug 17, 2011)

editor said:


> Jumping to wild conclusions of 'murder' really helps no one, you know.


Nor does assuming that the actions of the police were proportionate.


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## junglevip (Aug 17, 2011)

editor said:


> Because I'm not jumping to wild, evidence-free conclusions about murder and improper conduct? I'll take that as a compliment, thanks.



Your welcome


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## editor (Aug 17, 2011)

TopCat said:


> Nor does assuming that the actions of the police were proportionate.


Unless you have evidence of that, a far more sensible approach would be to wait for the actual evidence to emerge. Boring, I know, and not half as much fun as a knee jerk reaction, but a bit more grown up overall, really.


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## Captain Hurrah (Aug 17, 2011)

pseudonarcissus said:


> but Hartington Street!!?? what's on Hartington street except for the launderette I used to go to? That was 25 years ago, mind



Connected to Abbey Road. Few bars on there, along with the magistrates court. A fair few streets are nice and leafy, with big houses. Pity the place is fucked. Last time I was there was in 2007, not long after my father passed away. Some of the buildings near the roundabout at Ramsden Square, opposite the library, were boarded up the same as when I was there in 1997.


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## pseudonarcissus (Aug 17, 2011)

Captain Hurrah said:


> Connected to Abbey Road. Few bars on there, along with the magistrates court. A fair few streets are nice and leafy, with big houses. Pity the place is fucked. Last time I was there was in 2007, not long after my father passed away. Some of the buildings near the roundabout at Ramsden Square, opposite the library, were boarded up the same as when I was there in 1997.


I used to live in Dundonald Street in 1985. I imagine it's grim, there were 16,000 working in the yard back then, probably a couple of thousand now.


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## TopCat (Aug 17, 2011)

editor said:


> Unless you have evidence of that, a far more sensible approach would be to wait for the actual evidence to emerge. Boring, I know, and not half as much fun as a knee jerk reaction, but a bit more grown up overall, really.


Given the history of the police lying over the details of deaths at their hands and the history of the IPCC of lying with regard to the same your approach is quaintly naive at best.


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## krtek a houby (Aug 17, 2011)

For all we know the poor guy has a heart condition or something. Shouting "murder" is not a big help.


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## Captain Hurrah (Aug 17, 2011)

pseudonarcissus said:


> I used to live in Dundonald Street in 1985. I imagine it's grim, there were 16,000 working in the yard back then, probably a couple of thousand now.


 
About that, I would imagine mate.  Even though they're building those new Astute class nuclear submarines.  The Vickers/BAE yard is the only place in the UK that specialises in them.


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## editor (Aug 17, 2011)

krtek a houby said:


> For all we know the poor guy has a heart condition or something. Shouting "murder" is not a big help.


A rare sensible comment! Yes, the police may well have overstepped the mark again - and if they have the cops responsible should be slapped down hard - but until we know the full facts, screaming 'murder' isn't going to help. In fact, it may end up hurting people.


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## krtek a houby (Aug 17, 2011)

editor said:


> A rare sensible comment! Yes, the police may well have overstepped the mark again - and if they have the cops responsible should be slapped down hard - but until we know the full facts, screaming 'murder' isn't going to help. *In fact, it may end up hurting people*.



And that's what worries me. Of course the police involved will have to undergo severe scrutiny and investigation to determine what happened but these things don't happen overnight; as opposed to speculation/rumour which spreads like wildfire.


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## TopCat (Aug 17, 2011)

krtek a houby said:


> And that's what worries me. Of course the police involved will have to undergo severe scrutiny and investigation to determine what happened but these things don't happen overnight; as opposed to speculation/rumour which spreads like wildfire.


Severe scrutiny? When did deaths at the hands of the police get subjected to severe scrutiny?


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## Pickman's model (Aug 17, 2011)

editor said:


> You've only mentioned them and not linked to the articles and as far as I can see they have no real information about the incident either. So in other words, it's far too early to be jumping to conclusions about 'murder' or improper use of the taser.


don't put words in my mouth. i said nothing about murder, nor about improper use of the taser.


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## editor (Aug 17, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> don't put words in my mouth.


What are you on about?


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## krtek a houby (Aug 17, 2011)

TopCat said:


> Severe scrutiny? When did deaths at the hands of the police get subjected to severe scrutiny?


 All the time, I imagine


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## Pickman's model (Aug 17, 2011)

editor said:


> What are you on about?


you said "it's far too early to be jumping to conclusions about 'murder' or improper use of the taser", suggesting i had made such claims. which i haven't.


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## xes (Aug 17, 2011)

editor said:


> A rare sensible comment! Yes, the police may well have overstepped the mark again - and if they have the cops responsible should be slapped down hard - but until we know the full facts, screaming 'murder' isn't going to help. In fact, it may end up hurting people.


where do you expect this magical evidence to come from? The police, the media, the IPCC?

And how can you possibly trust it?


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## editor (Aug 17, 2011)

xes said:


> where do you expect this magical evidence to come from? The police, the media, the IPCC?
> 
> And how can you possibly trust it?


Eye witnesses, CCTV, doctor's reports. That kind of thing.

Thing is, I doubt if there's any evidence that would satisfy you anyway, because your mind is already tightly made up.


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## editor (Aug 17, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> you said "it's far too early to be jumping to conclusions about 'murder' or improper use of the taser", suggesting i had made such claims. which i haven't.


Did I say _you_ were making those claims? No, I didn't. I was talking in context of the thread.  Try paying more attention.


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## TopCat (Aug 17, 2011)

krtek a houby said:


> All the time, I imagine


Why would you imagine this? Why would you think it? can you re collect an investigation into deaths at the hands of the police that was thorough and fair? If so perhaps you would consider why no police person has ever been convicted in any sense for causing the death of some one they have attacked.


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## pseudonarcissus (Aug 17, 2011)

_The Independent Police Complaints Commission has been informed._

one of the scary things about people talking about this American policeman as a Met chief constable or advisor, or whatever, is that in the US there is not even the pretense of independent investigation of police killings, that is handled by "Internal Affairs"


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## Pickman's model (Aug 17, 2011)

editor said:


> Did I say _you_ were making those claims? No, I didn't. I was talking in context of the thread. Try paying more attention.


in the context of quoting me. the use of 'murder' in quotation marks certainly suggested it was aimed at something i'd said.


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## krtek a houby (Aug 17, 2011)

TopCat said:


> Why would you imagine this? Why would you think it? can you re collect an investigation into deaths at the hands of the police that was thorough and fair? If so perhaps you would consider why no police person has ever been convicted in any sense for causing the death of some one they have attacked.



I'll consider innocence until proven guilty. And I'll have all the facts before I start irresponsible gossip and hearsay.


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## xes (Aug 17, 2011)

editor said:


> Eye witnesses, CCTV, doctor's reports. That kind of thing.
> 
> Thing is, I doubt if there's any evidence that would satisfy you anyway, because your mind is already tightly made up.


funny you should say that. I just posted on another forum simular to what you have been saying, that there is not enough evidence to say what has happened. (I'm more than willing to pm you where I did that if you like) Infact, I refrained from posting simular in your defence earler. As i can tell that you've not made any sort of judgment at all on the case. And whilst yes, I am a cop hater, and can see that the police routinely lie about deaths in their presense. I can also see that the media also lie, and leave things very open to missenterpretation, which they have done here. So I'm going to refrain from commenting on this in full, until, like you, more details are released. I also know that these details will probably be skewed, and not to be trusted. So yes, in a way , my mind is made up, but thas is becasue the pigs lie like fuck all the time, and the IPCC is just an extention of the police, so I can't trust them either. I'll allow for the actual facts to emege, should they do so, but to what extent I'll believe anything printed, will have to be revealed in due course.


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## likesfish (Aug 17, 2011)

police tend not to be zap happy with tasers the ones we issue tag the fact they have been discharged so you just can't use them without everybody knowing and have to back up the fact you zapped somebody with it. unlike a baton.
 on the tv programme a copper was saying he liked tasers because the little laser sight on them 9 times out of ten persuaded people to give up rather than trying to fight which saved everybody's face and everybody from getting injured.
 its actually really hard to cuff somebody who doesn't want to be cuffed without hurting them so much they end up in hospital


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## TopCat (Aug 17, 2011)

krtek a houby said:


> I'll consider innocence until proven guilty. And I'll have all the facts before I start irresponsible gossip and hearsay.


Where are you going to get all the facts? From the IPCC?


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## Pickman's model (Aug 17, 2011)

krtek a houby said:


> I'll consider innocence until proven guilty. And I'll have all the facts before I start irresponsible gossip and hearsay.


in that case the dead man will in your eyes remain innocent.


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## krtek a houby (Aug 17, 2011)

TopCat said:


> Where are you going to get all the facts? From the IPCC?


Certainly not from the more vociferous urbanits


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## TopCat (Aug 17, 2011)

krtek a houby said:


> Certainly not from the more vociferous urbanits


So where from?


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## Pickman's model (Aug 17, 2011)

krtek a houby said:


> Certainly not from the more vociferous urbanits


you wouldn't know a fact if it nipped your left bollock off.


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## krtek a houby (Aug 17, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> in that case the dead man will in your eyes remain innocent.


Whatever you say, pal


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## krtek a houby (Aug 17, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> you wouldn't know a fact if it nipped your left bollock off.


is this a reference to my recent testicular scare? nice


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## TopCat (Aug 17, 2011)

So where do you get the facts from eh?


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## Pickman's model (Aug 17, 2011)

krtek a houby said:


> is this a reference to my recent testicular scare? nice


i didn't know you'd had a recent testicular scare. nor do i particularly care.


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## TopCat (Aug 17, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> i didn't know you'd had a recent testicular scare.


People post all sorts of bollocks on urban.


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## likesfish (Aug 17, 2011)

Mr Dale Burns was 27
http://www.nwemail.co.uk/home/dad-dies-after-taser-shot-arrest
 big body builder either very very good or using steroids which are neither good for controlling rage or your heart.
  nightmare for any copper to deal with very big very angry bloke who's not rational. most coppers don't carry a plate of chicken breasts or some weights.
 so calming the bloke down possibly not an option


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## krtek a houby (Aug 17, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> i didn't know you'd had a recent testicular scare. nor do i particularly care.


Of course you don't care about human life and it's frailties, this is why day in day out you pose and throw shapes here, in between following me around taking snipes wherever possible.

You are a fake and are using this opportunity to shout down the police without knowing the truth of the matter.


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## krtek a houby (Aug 17, 2011)

TopCat said:


> People post all sorts of bollocks on urban.



Gosh, you're a wit, aren't you


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## TopCat (Aug 17, 2011)

Pickmans. Stop throwing shapes immediately.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 17, 2011)

krtek a houby said:


> Of course you don't care about human life and it's frailties, this is why day in day out you pose and throw shapes here, in between following me around taking snipes wherever possible.
> 
> You are a fake and are using this opportunity to shout down the police without knowing the truth of the matter.


if i followed you about i would have found about your little scare. but i don't.

i do care about a great number of people. but you're somewhat of a wanker and i don't mind what happens to you as long as it's not good.

as for the police, they provide so many opportunities to shout them down i don't need to make them up myself. and the truth? like jack nicholson says in 'a few good men', you can't handle the truth.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 17, 2011)

likesfish said:


> Mr Dale Burns was 27
> http://www.nwemail.co.uk/home/dad-dies-after-taser-shot-arrest
> big body builder either very very good or using steroids which are neither good for controlling rage or your heart.
> nightmare for any copper to deal with very big very angry bloke who's not rational. most coppers don't carry a plate of chicken breasts or some weights.
> so calming the bloke down possibly not an option


how do you know he wasn't rational? by rational do you mean kowtowing to the police?


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## DotCommunist (Aug 17, 2011)

TopCat said:


> Pickmans. Stop throwing shapes immediately.


 
Pickmans is doing vogue as we speak.

Nice to see likefish asserting a mans steroid addiction before the evidence


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## krtek a houby (Aug 17, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> if i followed you about i would have found about your little scare. but i don't.
> 
> i do care about a great number of people. but you're somewhat of a wanker and* i don't mind what happens to you as long as it's not good.*
> 
> as for the police, they provide so many opportunities to shout them down i don't need to make them up myself. and the truth? like jack nicholson says in 'a few good men', you can't handle the truth.



As I have said on plenty of occasions, you wanted a panto villain - you got one. As for the police, I have never claimed they are all angels - simply that we need to reign in irresponsible chatter about murder and so forth until we know for sure.

If that makes me a wanker; so be it.

The veiled death threats do raise a smile. You've been pulled up on them before with other posters. Too chicken to come right out and say what you want. I think they'll come back to haunt you in the end, all the same.


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## TopCat (Aug 17, 2011)

Your cracked if you think that was a veiled death threat.


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## krtek a houby (Aug 17, 2011)

H


TopCat said:


> Your cracked if you think that was a veiled death threat.



Got form, that one. And I would expect you to bat his corner.


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## DotCommunist (Aug 17, 2011)




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## krtek a houby (Aug 17, 2011)

DotCommunist said:


>


 
yeah, you done that before. amusing. however, this thread is not about me, it's about the usual suspects jumping to conclusions and trying to stifle debate like the fascists they are.


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## xes (Aug 17, 2011)

death threats? Fucking LOL 

talk about deluded.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 17, 2011)

krtek a houby said:


> As I have said on plenty of occasions, you wanted a panto villain - you got one. As for the police, I have never claimed they are all angels - simply that we need to reign in irresponsible chatter about murder and so forth until we know for sure.
> 
> If that makes me a wanker; so be it.
> 
> The veiled death threats do raise a smile. You've been pulled up on them before with other posters. Too chicken to come right out and say what you want. I think they'll come back to haunt you in the end, all the same.


newsflash: i haven't said anything about the cops murdering this man. neither have i made death threats against you, veiled or otherwise.


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## Badgers (Aug 17, 2011)

I have noticed that sometimes people die.
Sometimes naturally, sometimes a combination of things, sometimes due to one thing.


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## krtek a houby (Aug 17, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> newsflash: i haven't said anything about the cops murdering this man. neither have i made death threats against you, veiled or otherwise.


Uh huh. Can we get back to the thread matter, this is fucking boring as usual


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## TopCat (Aug 17, 2011)

Badgers said:


> I have noticed that sometimes people die.
> Sometimes naturally, sometimes a combination of things, sometimes due to one thing.


This is the sort of death threat that krtek was on about.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 17, 2011)

Badgers said:


> I have noticed that sometimes people die.
> Sometimes naturally, sometimes a combination of things, sometimes due to one thing.


everyone dies, sadly not everyone when they should.


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## DotCommunist (Aug 17, 2011)

fascism is definetly about disagreeing with someone else based on evidence of how the police behave. Il Duce is reborn and posting on urbans


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## Fruitloop (Aug 17, 2011)

There really is no safe way to electrocute people into submission. Who knew?


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## krtek a houby (Aug 17, 2011)

DotCommunist said:


> fascism is definetly about disagreeing with someone else based on evidence of how the police behave. Il Duce is reborn and posting on urbans


 Il duce. Is that a Godwins as well?


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## TopCat (Aug 17, 2011)

krtek a houby said:


> Il duce. Is that a Godwins as well?


no


----------



## krtek a houby (Aug 17, 2011)

TopCat said:


> no


near enough. so. anyone want to speculate on the actual topic?


----------



## gabi (Aug 17, 2011)

krtek a houby said:


> near enough. so. anyone want to speculate on the actual topic?



not much point until more details are released really


----------



## pseudonarcissus (Aug 17, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> how do you know he wasn't rational? by rational do you mean kowtowing to the police?


if they are pointing a gun or a tazer at you, yes, I'm afraid kowtowing is the rational response...doesn't even have to be a policeman pointing the thing


----------



## TopCat (Aug 17, 2011)

But safe to assume that the information that will leak to the corrupt press from the police will be self serving and will contain lies.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 17, 2011)

krtek a houby said:


> near enough. so. anyone want to speculate on the actual topic?


you've said you don't hold with speculation.


----------



## krtek a houby (Aug 17, 2011)

TopCat said:


> But safe to assume that the information that will leak to the corrupt press from the police will be self serving and will contain lies.


 It's possible but that's assuming they did commit a crime


----------



## krtek a houby (Aug 17, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> you've said you don't hold with speculation.



*JUST FUCK OFF RIGHT FUCK OFF AND FIND SOMEONE ELSE WHO CAN BE ARSED YOU CUNTING FUCKPISTON*


----------



## Badgers (Aug 17, 2011)

TopCat said:


> This is the sort of death threat that krtek was on about.







Pickman's model said:


> everyone dies, sadly not everyone when they should.



Yup, it is shit but people die getting restrained by police, fighting each other, driving cars, eating peanuts and stuff.

Not excusing any potential police brutality or endorsing the taser. Sounds like a fucking tough lad they were dealing with though and he was probably going to get hurt if they had tried to manhandle him. Shitty for all concerned.


----------



## TopCat (Aug 17, 2011)

krtek a houby said:


> *JUST FUCK OFF RIGHT FUCK OFF AND FIND SOMEONE ELSE WHO CAN BE ARSED YOU CUNTING FUCKPISTON*


Cunting fuckpiston? Sorry Pickmans but this is just not you at all.


----------



## gabi (Aug 17, 2011)

'cunting fuckpiston'

im nickin that


----------



## likesfish (Aug 17, 2011)

from the picture in he press he looked fucking huge and ripped.
 to be fair no idea when and where said photo was taken but bodybuilders and steroids very common.
 so huge bodybuilder roid rage dodgy ticker taser= tragedy
  not exactly sure how else you get somebody that size to do what you want. which is what the Police want as somebody called them to do something.
pileing mob handed isn't exactly going to guarantee anyone comes out unharmed.


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 17, 2011)

krtek a houby said:


> *JUST FUCK OFF RIGHT FUCK OFF AND FIND SOMEONE ELSE WHO CAN BE ARSED YOU CUNTING FUCKPISTON*


 
Shitlathe or cumwrench would also make me laugh as much as fuckpiston did


----------



## editor (Aug 17, 2011)

TopCat said:


> But safe to assume that the information that will leak to the corrupt press from the police will be self serving and will contain lies.


Yeah! Just like with the hacking scandal and the info that the Guardian published! Oh, err, hang on....


----------



## editor (Aug 17, 2011)

gabi said:


> not much point until more details are released really


Well, that's a bit boring. Surely you could just throw around a few fact-free murder accusations just to keep things interesting?


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 17, 2011)

editor said:


> Yeah! Just like with the hacking scandal and the info that the Guardian published! Oh, err, hang on....


 
10 years after the fact


----------



## xes (Aug 17, 2011)

editor said:


> Yeah! Just like with the hacking scandal and the info that the Guardian published! Oh, err, hang on....


that's been going on (and known to the police)  for how many years? And only come out now becasue they don't really have much option but to bring it out.


----------



## editor (Aug 17, 2011)

DotCommunist said:


> 10 years after the fact


Err, no.


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 17, 2011)

nick davies detailed a practise he'd seen going on for many years in his 2008 book Flat Earth News. So err, yes


----------



## Badgers (Aug 17, 2011)

xes said:


> that's been going on (and known to the police) for how many years? And only come out now becasue they don't really have much option but to bring it out.



Cunting fuckpistons


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 17, 2011)

er...

http://www.basildonrecorder.co.uk/n..._Jones_s_mobile_hacked_by_News_of_the_World_/

2001

you are wrong. make the beep beep noise that trucks do and back up


----------



## TopCat (Aug 17, 2011)

I don't think the police deserve the benefit of the doubt at the moment.


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 17, 2011)

Or ever, to be fair. But yes, the reputation of her majesties finest is worth the steam off of my shit in particular at this time given the year they have had. Tonlinson, phone bribery, duggan and so on


----------



## Badgers (Aug 17, 2011)

TopCat said:


> I don't think the police deserve the benefit of the doubt at the moment.



They don't think the public deserve the benefit of the doubt at the moment


----------



## editor (Aug 17, 2011)

TopCat said:


> I don't think the police deserve the benefit of the doubt at the moment.


What specific details of this particular case are leading you to that conclusion?


----------



## TopCat (Aug 17, 2011)

The attitudes and actions of the police, to lie about the deaths they cause, have fatally undermined the trust many people had in them. It's reasonable given the context of police and IPCC lies to disbelieve the police when they issue press releases concerning another person dead at the hands of a weapon wielding copper.


----------



## XR75 (Aug 17, 2011)

likesfish said:


> police tend not to be zap happy with tasers the ones we issue tag the fact they have been discharged so you just can't use them without everybody knowing and have to back up the fact you zapped somebody with it.



The justification for tasering people seems to be getting lower when people who are running away get hit.


----------



## Nine Bob Note (Aug 17, 2011)

I was overwhelmed by the inbox full of pms checking to see I wasn't the 27-year-old Barrovian in question  If I remember rightly, he was in the year below at my school(s).

As has already been said, the incident took place accross from the courthouse loading bay, so it's very likely to have been captured on cctv.


----------



## Streathamite (Aug 17, 2011)

Captain Hurrah said:


> Connected to Abbey Road. Few bars on there, along with the magistrates court. A fair few streets are nice and leafy, with big houses. Pity the place is fucked. Last time I was there was in 2007, not long after my father passed away. Some of the buildings near the roundabout at Ramsden Square, opposite the library, were boarded up the same as when I was there in 1997.


i've been told barrow is incredibly grim and depressing, a sorta post-industrial wasteland. Is that so?


----------



## Streathamite (Aug 17, 2011)

krtek a houby said:


> You are a fake and are using this opportunity to shout down the police without knowing the truth of the matter.


Has it occurreed to you that the past 12 months have given people profound reason to distrust the police? this is the THIRd time, in as many months that a police arrest has resulted in the death of the arrestee.


----------



## Streathamite (Aug 17, 2011)

krtek a houby said:


> yeah, you done that before. amusing. however, this thread is not about me, it's about the usual suspects jumping to conclusions and trying to stifle debate like the fascists they are.


yes, but your endless victim complex has propelled itself to centre stage AGAIN!


----------



## Streathamite (Aug 17, 2011)

editor said:


> Yeah! Just like with the hacking scandal and the info that the Guardian published! Oh, err, hang on....


surely, that's a rather different kettle of kippers? Withthe NOTW phone hacking thing, the problem was the rozzers sitting on masses of evidence of criminal behaviour, suppressing it and deciding to do nothing about it?
Can't see the connection with that and a f-up in barrow, tbh


----------



## GarfieldLeChat (Aug 17, 2011)

sorry but really this guy was on steroids clearlly he was on steroids look at his panda eyed creosote covered face and neck...







Roids cause heart attacks by weakening the heart muscle, heart attacks are caused by weakening of the heard often caused by sever dehydration and body builders are known to dehydrate to get their muscle tone often in a dangerous manner... 

So regardless of the coppers actions he was a walking heart attack time bomb... the taser probably did exacerbate the preexisting condition but so could a big thump to the chest...

I'm more outraged tbh by his mates saying they find it all shocking... I mean really, really that's the comment you've come out with after your mates been electrocuted... not the sharpest tools in the box are they....


----------



## Streathamite (Aug 17, 2011)

I'm more outraged tbh by his mates saying they find it all shocking... I mean really, really that's the comment you've come out with after your mates been electrocuted... not the sharpest tools in the box are they....[/quote]
well,yeah garf, but who is a beacon of eloquence when they're dealing with the trauma of grief and bereavement


----------



## GarfieldLeChat (Aug 17, 2011)

Streathamite said:


> me said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


oh learn to quote granddad and lol sometimes...


----------



## weltweit (Aug 17, 2011)

Still, tazers can be fatal.

Should they not only be issued to firearms officers?


----------



## roctrevezel (Aug 17, 2011)

weltweit said:


> Still, tazers can be fatal.
> 
> Should they not only be issued to firearms officers?



That was one of the reasons I started this thread, they should only be issued to firearms trained officers.


----------



## Streathamite (Aug 17, 2011)

GarfieldLeChat said:


> oh learn to quote granddad and lol sometimes...


ahh...sorry
it's the old age, y'see.
who am I again?


----------



## GarfieldLeChat (Aug 17, 2011)

Streathamite said:


> ahh...sorry
> it's the old age, y'see.
> who am I again?



your name is Paul Francis Gadd


----------



## Streathamite (Aug 17, 2011)

GarfieldLeChat said:


> your name is Paul Francis Gadd


oh you wanker that really is out of order!


----------



## GarfieldLeChat (Aug 17, 2011)

Streathamite said:


> oh you wanker that really is out of order!




sorry Mr Langham...


----------



## claphamboy (Aug 17, 2011)

likesfish said:


> from the picture in he press he looked fucking huge and ripped.
> to be fair no idea when and where said photo was taken but bodybuilders and steroids very common.
> so huge bodybuilder roid rage dodgy ticker taser= tragedy
> not exactly sure how else you get somebody that size to do what you want. which is what the Police want as somebody called them to do something.
> pileing mob handed isn't exactly going to guarantee anyone comes out unharmed.



This ^^^



GarfieldLeChat said:


> sorry but really this guy was on steroids clearlly he was on steroids look at his panda eyed creosote covered face and neck...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



& this ^^^

Looking at the size of the guy, and assuming he was kicking-off in some way, it's hardly surprising the cops used a taser rather then tried to restrain him in any other way.

The only two people I've known IRL that were that pumped-up got there by abusing steroids to a massive level, both ended-up with heart conditions.


----------



## GarfieldLeChat (Aug 17, 2011)

why assume he was kicking off... he took roids, roids fuck hearts... everything else will not in any way unless he was shot at the same time have had a big contributory to his heart failure the roids will be responsible... what caused him to met his roid precipitated death is almost irrelevant, it could have been a leaf hitting him on the head... do the investigation because he died in police custody but really we know what they outcome is already...


----------



## SpineyNorman (Aug 17, 2011)

krtek a houby said:


> yeah, you done that before. amusing. however, this thread is not about me, it's about the usual suspects jumping to conclusions and trying to stifle debate like the fascists they are.


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Aug 17, 2011)

Streathamite said:


> i've been told barrow is incredibly grim and depressing, a sorta post-industrial wasteland. Is that so?



Not far off...it's certainly one of the shitter parts of Cumbria that's for sure!


----------



## Fedayn (Aug 17, 2011)

Strangely enough Channel 4 News didn't metnion a chainsaw or any other lethal weapon being brandished by this fella....


----------



## editor (Aug 17, 2011)

Fedayn said:


> Strangely enough Channel 4 News didn't metnion a chainsaw or any other lethal weapon being brandished by this fella....


Looking at his Amazing Hulk proportions, I guess he wouldn't need one.


----------



## GarfieldLeChat (Aug 17, 2011)

Fedayn said:


> Strangely enough Channel 4 News didn't metnion a chainsaw or any other lethal weapon being brandished by this fella....


other than a horrific tan and enough guns to be lethal...


----------



## GarfieldLeChat (Aug 17, 2011)

editor said:


> Looking at his Amazing Hulk proportions, I guess he wouldn't need one.


surprisingly the muscle marys of the world who neck the roids aren't actually very strong although they look it... in essence to get that kind of definition you need to be close to death dehydrated (well liver failure dehydrated) hence the very papery look to the skin even though they are covered from head to toe in creosote


----------



## Fedayn (Aug 17, 2011)

editor said:


> Looking at his Amazing Hulk proportions, I guess he wouldn't need one.



I'd like to see a picture of him yesterday as opposed to one of him all pumped up at a competition, I think there might be a bit of a difference in the way he looks..... Nowt like a nice wee pic to make people jump to conclusions.....


----------



## cool herc (Aug 17, 2011)

editor said:


> Looking at his Amazing Hulk proportions, I guess he wouldn't need one.



Thats just gym and steroid bulk. He probably has a tiny winkle. Or had, as is the case now.


----------



## GarfieldLeChat (Aug 17, 2011)

Fedayn said:


> I'd like to see a picture of him yesterday as opposed to one of him all pumped up at a competition, I think there might be a bit of a difference in the way he looks..... Nowt like a nice wee pic to make people jump to conclusions.....


roids dude take years to work their way out of a system and to be that big he's been using them for at least 2 years if not longer... which means he's also affect his muscle growth longer term as he would have been taking them during his teenage years when he was still developing...


----------



## editor (Aug 17, 2011)

cool herc said:


> Thats just gym and steroid bulk. He probably has a tiny winkle. Or had, as is the case now.


How big was the Amazing Hulk's winkle?


----------



## cool herc (Aug 17, 2011)

editor said:


> How big was the Amazing Hulk's winkle?



Before or after roid rage turned him green?


----------



## Fedayn (Aug 17, 2011)

GarfieldLeChat said:


> roids dude take years to work their way out of a system and to be that big he's been using them for at least 2 years if not longer... which means he's also affect his muscle growth longer term as he would have been taking them during his teenage years when he was still developing...



And? he would look nothing like the picture being bandied about here. The pic being touted is being used for a pretty obvious reason and his alleged, as yet unproven, steroid use to establish him as looking and sounding dangerous so as to automatically make him the aggressor and the police as in peril. We don't know what happened but the softening up is already well under way.....


----------



## Streathamite (Aug 17, 2011)

it's worth pointing out that we are STILL ALL ASSUMING; the steroids, the circs of death, the rage. Hard, provable facts are taking their time...


----------



## GarfieldLeChat (Aug 17, 2011)

Fedayn said:


> And? he would look nothing like the picture being bandied about here. The pic being touted is being used for a pretty obvious reason and his alleged, as yet unproven, steroid use to establish him as looking and sounding dangerous so as to automatically make him the aggressor and the police as in peril. We don't know what happened but the softening up is already well under way.....


mate there's no alleged about it you cannot physically get muscle definition like that without roids.

Not possible, at all, unless you manage to change the physical properties of gravity.

I'm not saying it was roid rage which provoked the incident but if a 20 year old adult looks like that then they have been caining the roids end of story.  if you cain the roids then your hear get's weak as has to over work down narrowed arteries and veins and has to pump harder and faster to maintain the circulation.  What's more you won't notice the side effects of this because the roids mask them...

as to the circumstances of his death that's a different matter but the roids would definitely have caused the heart condition which cause the heart attack, did sever thousand volts help sure probably did, but was his health in a precarious position due to roids it certainly was... read up on them you'll see all the evidence (which is why they are banned) points to heart problems and liver failure... every time...


----------



## GarfieldLeChat (Aug 17, 2011)

Streathamite said:


> it's worth pointing out that we are STILL ALL ASSUMING; the steroids, the circs of death, the rage. Hard, provable facts are taking their time...


roids aren't an assumption.  If that is a picture of him, he was on or had done sever amounts or roids... no question.


----------



## roctrevezel (Aug 17, 2011)

roids also shrink the willy.


----------



## Streathamite (Aug 17, 2011)

GarfieldLeChat said:


> roids aren't an assumption. If that is a picture of him, he was on or had done sever amounts or roids... no question.


I think you're prolly right, but the fact you have an 'if' in your post underlines the point I was trying to make; no hard facts yet, just a police force whose counterparts elsewhere are historically only too willing to smear their victims, and a newspaper whose counterparts elsewhere are only to willing to do that for them


----------



## Fedayn (Aug 17, 2011)

GarfieldLeChat said:


> mate there's no alleged about it you cannot physically get muscle definition like that without roids.
> 
> Not possible, at all, unless you manage to change the physical properties of gravity.
> 
> ...



He was 27 for a start.

I am aware what steroids do, that is irrelevant as to whether he should have been tasered however. it may well affect what happened to him as a result of the taser being used, but that too is irrelevamnt as to whether the taser should have been used or whether the procedures were adhreed to. Perhaps we should jump to conclusions about the copper..... ??. We don't know but already presumptions are being made about him and what was happening.... We might even find that chainsaw if we keep digging.


----------



## GarfieldLeChat (Aug 17, 2011)

Fedayn said:


> He was 27 for a start.
> 
> I am aware what steroids do, that is irrelevant as to whether he should have been tasered however. it may well affect what happened to him as a result of the taser being used, but that too is irrelevamnt as to whether the taser should have been used or whether the procedures were adhreed to. Perhaps we should jump to conclusions about the copper..... ??. We don't know but already presumptions are being made about him and what was happening.... We might even find that chainsaw if we keep digging.


when did you stop reading and can you please point to where I've said that taking roids would lead to him being tasered...

if we're into the relems of arguing things which other people have not said then I recon you can't say it was because he had sex with a chicken...


----------



## GarfieldLeChat (Aug 17, 2011)

Streathamite said:


> I think you're prolly right, but the fact you have an 'if' in your post underlines the point I was trying to make; no hard facts yet, just a police force whose counterparts elsewhere are historically only too willing to smear their victims, and a newspaper whose counterparts elsewhere are only to willing to do that for them


not saying they're not but equally you can say the dude in the image would certainly have had heart liver problems...

see http://www.anabolic-bible.org/ShowPage.aspx?callpage=side_effects


----------



## Fedayn (Aug 17, 2011)

GarfieldLeChat said:


> when did you stop reading and can you please point to where I've said that taking roids would lead to him being tasered...
> 
> if we're into the relems of arguing things which other people have not said then I recon you can't say it was because he had sex with a chicken...



I never said you did say that.... I was making the point myself.


----------



## Streathamite (Aug 17, 2011)

GarfieldLeChat said:


> not saying they're not but equally you can say the dude in the image would certainly have had heart liver problems...
> 
> see http://www.anabolic-bible.org/ShowPage.aspx?callpage=side_effects


agreed with that


----------



## likesfish (Aug 17, 2011)

worked at a gym at owner was quoted as his mate been into bodybuilding since his teens using steroids a given even if only for a few months would fuck his system up
apparently the ambulance was called before the arrest was made sounds like coppers realized they were dealing with someone who for whatever reason wasn't all there. now getting a "mad" person into an ambulance is highly distressing and quite difficult if you've got two big coppers and a small mad person.
 put a huge mountain of a bloke and it becomes much much harder especially if they look like they can rip your head off
   much as the abcab crowd would like it to look bad likely went down he refused to come with them and was violent unless he radically thinned down being slapped by him would be game over so the toys come out the box. not sure how effective a taser is against man mountain and the copper would be bricking it and possibly choking on pepper spray best not used in a confined space


----------



## likesfish (Aug 17, 2011)

worked at a gym at owner was quoted as his mate been into bodybuilding since his teens using steroids a given even if only for a few months would fuck his system up
apparently the ambulance was called before the arrest was made sounds like coppers realized they were dealing with someone who for whatever reason wasn't all there. now getting a "mad" person into an ambulance is highly distressing and quite difficult if you've got two big coppers and a small mad person.
 put a huge mountain of a bloke and it becomes much much harder especially if they look like they can rip your head off
   much as the abcab crowd would like it to look bad likely went down he refused to come with them and was violent unless he radically thinned down being slapped by him would be game over so the toys come out the box. not sure how effective a taser is against man mountain and the copper would be bricking it and possibly choking on pepper spray best not used in a confined space 
 unfortunately the bloke would look like a massive threat with although with a seriously compromised system so the police use what they see as reasonable force considering they are facing a huge aggressive angry bloke who doesn't appear to be rational.
 oh when subdued karks it


----------



## Captain Hurrah (Aug 18, 2011)

Streathamite said:


> i've been told barrow is incredibly grim and depressing, a sorta post-industrial wasteland. Is that so?



Yep.  It isn't pretty.  People I knew there were sound, just the heart was ripped out if it with the shipyard's loss of contracts. It  has never recovered from that.   Went to college there from 1997-2000, doing a painting and decorating apprenticeship, which I never finished.  They did try and regenerate when I was there, by tarting up the centre into a pedestrianised shopping area, and built a retail park (Hollywood Park ).  You know the thing: multiplex cinema, bowling alley, fast food outlets, gym etc.  Even paid for a new bus service, to try and bring in shoppers from elsewhere in the county.  It didn't take off, and anyway, shitty retail/service jobs paying the minimum aren't the same as the skilled or highly-skilled, and better paying jobs people had at the shipyard.


----------



## free spirit (Aug 18, 2011)

> A spokesman for the IPCC said: "The Independent Police Complaints Commission (IPCC) investigation into the death of a man following his arrest in Barrow yesterday evening is under way.
> "IPCC investigators are in Barrow and have begun the investigation gathering evidence, examining police logs and gaining initial accounts from officers.
> "Information known so far is that at around 6.30pm officers were called to a report of a concern for welfare for a man at an upstairs flat in Hartington Street, Barrow.
> "Officers attended around 10 minutes later and on speaking to the man decided to call an ambulance which then arrived.
> ...


[source]
unless the guy was actually in severe danger / actually being attecked there's no excuse for using the taser multiple times on someone IMO.

A taser should be a weapon of second to last resort, but seems to increasingly be being used far more often than can really be justified for situations where there's no real danger to the officers, but they use it or threaten it's use just to give themselves an easier arrest.


----------



## likesfish (Aug 18, 2011)

An easier arrest hmm.
 if you have a taser you get to use it as a threat hands up or else alternative is to end up getting into a struggle where the prisoner is more likely to get hurt.
  seen the size of the bloke? if he wasn't being rational he would be a definite threat


----------



## TopCat (Aug 18, 2011)

So the police admit pepper spraying the bloke and tasering him.


----------



## Streathamite (Aug 18, 2011)

Captain Hurrah said:


> Yep. It isn't pretty. People I knew there were sound, just the heart was ripped out if it with the shipyard's loss of contracts. It has never recovered from that. Went to college there from 1997-2000, doing a painting and decorating apprenticeship, which I never finished. They did try and regenerate when I was there, by tarting up the centre into a pedestrianised shopping area, and built a retail park (Hollywood Park ). You know the thing: multiplex cinema, bowling alley, fast food outlets, gym etc. Even paid for a new bus service, to try and bring in shoppers from elsewhere in the county. It didn't take off, and anyway, shitty retail/service jobs paying the minimum aren't the same as the skilled or highly-skilled, and better paying jobs people had at the shipyard.


ta for the info - that is all pretty sad


----------



## krtek a houby (Aug 18, 2011)

Streathamite said:


> yes, but your endless victim complex has propelled itself to centre stage AGAIN!



er, no - a handful of people tend to go nuts when I post here. I can't help that.

You rightly decry the police using bullets so they use tasers instead, sadly, there will be occasional fatalities but what are the police left with to discipline the unruly amongst us?


----------



## Streathamite (Aug 18, 2011)

krtek a houby said:


> You rightly decry the police using bullets so they use tasers instead, sadly, there will be occasional fatalities but what are the police left with to discipline the unruly amongst us?


you're jumping the gun a tad there - we don't know yet whether the victim was 'unruly' or in what way a threat.
if you're making a general point, OK, but good, skilled officers usually know how to make sure things don't get to that stage, and have the expertise to defuse potentially dicey situations.


----------



## cirrus (Aug 22, 2011)

Ok I have been training brazilian jiujitsu with Dale up in Kendal. That photo is old and looks nothing like the Dale I know. This is Dale:





Yes he was a powerful guy approx 100 kg probably but not like body builder physique that photo suggests. He may have been in the past. He was not tall either about my height well under 6foot I would say. He was always very normal and calm in training not angry/prone to lose his rag by any means, and that includes when we were sparring hard which is full contact. Nice fella.
He wasn't easy to spar with as he was so powerful but I (under 70kg 5'8 and only a blue belt in bjj-the first belt,) was able to take him down on occasion and pin him/control him on the ground to an extent. On my own.
I don't know what happened that day or much about Dale out of training, but from my point of view the cops overreacted and need some more skills in controlling a person.
Why did they feel the need to spray him (which tbh is only going to piss off some people more I think,) AND tazer him as many times as they did??
Totally over the top and badly managed in my book.
Oh and btw assuming that someone took steroids just because he was a bodybuilder is 'a given' is wrong. The guy may never have taken steroids in his life!
RIP Dale.


----------



## editor (Aug 22, 2011)

cirrus said:


> Why did they feel the need to spray him (which tbh is only going to piss off some people more I think,) AND tazer him as many times as they did??
> Totally over the top and badly managed in my book.


Sorry to hear about the loss of your friend, but surely you should really only be posting up judgements about whether the police's conduct was "badly managed" and "over the top" when the precise circumstances of the incident are released?


----------



## cirrus (Aug 22, 2011)

editor said:


> Sorry to hear about the loss of your friend, but surely you should really only be posting up judgements about whether the police's conduct was "badly managed" and "over the top" when the precise circumstances of the incident are released?



Well I think tasering someone MULTIPLE TIMES is OTT.
Tasering someone once should surely be sufficient then they could be jumped on. (Not that I really agree with tasering particularly.) As I said I could pin the guy down on my own and I am under 70kg. Its not like he had an AK or a massive sword or owt.

The guy is dead. If you dont think they managed that situation badly you are crazy.. or are the Cumbrian cops PR..


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 23, 2011)

editor said:


> Sorry to hear about the loss of your friend, but surely you should really only be posting up judgements about whether the police's conduct was "badly managed" and "over the top" when the precise circumstances of the incident are released?


i think it's safe to say that when someone dies after being tasered multiple times and sprayed with cs it's a fair bet something's been badly managed. of course the courts may have a different verdict, but then they always do, don't they. liddle towers anyone?


----------



## editor (Aug 23, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> i think it's safe to say that when someone dies after being tasered multiple times and sprayed with cs it's a fair bet something's been badly managed. of course the courts may have a different verdict, but then they always do, don't they. liddle towers anyone?


All that depends on a multitude of factors, almost none of which you are currently privy to, so I'd say that it's fair to say that anyone making conclusions about the specific circumstances of this case are  jumping to conclusions, at the very least.


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## editor (Aug 23, 2011)

cirrus said:


> The guy is dead. If you dont think they managed that situation badly you are crazy.


Exactly what was the situation? Were you there?


cirrus said:


> . or are the Cumbrian cops PR..


Grow up, FFS. I know _more than enough_ about police malpractice, thanks very much.

If the cops were out of order, then I want to see the guilty fuckers facing justice, but that doesn't mean I'm going to jump to conclusions without knowing some of the facts first.


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## Fedayn (Aug 23, 2011)

Has anyone found this chainsaw yet?


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## editor (Aug 23, 2011)

Fedayn said:


> Has anyone found this chainsaw yet?


Wow. How very mature you are.


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## Fedayn (Aug 23, 2011)

editor said:


> Wow. How very mature you are.



As opposed to your maturity making all sorts of daft claims eh silly bollocks? Yes, wild uttely irrelevant claims by 'editor' = ok, reminding him of this stupidity = immature.


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## editor (Aug 23, 2011)

Fedayn said:


> As opposed to your maturity making all sorts of daft claims eh silly bollocks? Yes, wild uttely irrelevant claims by 'editor' = ok, reminding him of this stupidity = immature.


I have made no 'claims' about liability, misconduct or what supposedly _really happened_ anywhere in this thread, and that's because until some evidence is realised, I haven't the faintest idea of the precise circumstances of this case.

As far as I can see, you have no inside info here, but that doesn't seemed to have stopped you projecting your opinions based on, well, thin air.

If the cops are found to have acted illegally, then I want to see them slapped down in the courts hard but until I know some *facts*, I'm not going to jump to conclusions. Maybe you should try that sometime.


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## 888 (Aug 23, 2011)

Worthless police scum. I got tasered myself a few weeks ago...



> If the cops are found to have acted illegally, then I want to see them slapped down in the courts


That will never happen regardless of the extent o f their crimes.


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## Fedayn (Aug 23, 2011)

editor said:


> I have made no 'claims' about liability, misconduct or what supposedly _really happened_ anywhere in this thread, and that's because until some evidence is realised, I haven't the faintest idea of the precise circumstances of this case.
> 
> As far as I can see, you have no inside info here, but that doesn't seemed to have stopped you projecting your opinions based on, well, thin air.
> 
> If the cops are found to have acted illegally, then I want to see them slapped down in the courts hard but until I know some *facts*, I'm not going to jump to conclusions. Maybe you should try that sometime.



Now, where did I jump to any conlcusions? Here's a thought, have a look at what I said on this thread. Funnily enough I suggested people don't jump to conlusions, or make decisions about the dead man based upon his bodybuilding. I didn't make any suggestions about him possibly being tooled up either.... Funny that.....


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## editor (Aug 23, 2011)

Fedayn said:


> Now, where did I jump to any conlcusions? Here's a thought, have a look at what I said on this thread. Funnily enough I suggested people don't jump to conlusions, or make decisions about the dead man based upon his bodybuilding. I didn't make any suggestions about him possibly being tooled up either.... Funny that.....


You emphatically claimed that there was a media-wide policy of "softening up" being employed to paint the police in a more sympathetic light. What is your evidence for that, exactly?


Fedayn said:


> And? he would look nothing like the picture being bandied about here. The pic being touted is being used for a pretty obvious reason and his alleged, as yet unproven, steroid use to establish him as looking and sounding dangerous so as to automatically make him the aggressor and the police as in peril. We don't know what happened but the softening up is already well under way.....


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## Fedayn (Aug 23, 2011)

editor said:


> You emphatically claimed that there was a media-wide policy of "softening up" being employed to paint the police in a more sympathetic light. What is your evidence for that, exactly?



Was that picture in the press taken at the time of the incident? Is that picture anything like the one posted by cirrus. Do you think he looked like the oiled up picture all the time? What is different about the two pictures would you say? Take your time now won't you....


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## editor (Aug 23, 2011)

Fedayn said:


> Was that picture in the press taken at the time of the incident? Is that picture anything like the one posted by cirrus. Do you think he looked like the oiled up picture all the time? What is different about the two pictures would you say? Take your time now won't you....


Have you considered the possibility that it was the only photo immediately available to the press? But seeing as you're the one insisting that this was part of a carefully orchestrated campaign of 'softening up,' the onus is on you to provide proof of that claim, rather than presenting opinion as fact.

So, what proof have you got?


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## cirrus (Aug 23, 2011)

editor said:


> Exactly what was the situation? Were you there?
> Grow up, FFS. I know _more than enough_ about police malpractice, thanks very much.
> 
> If the cops were out of order, then I want to see the guilty fuckers facing justice, but that doesn't mean I'm going to jump to conclusions without knowing some of the facts first.



Jeesus ---- you've been doing this forum for tooo long..


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## Fedayn (Aug 23, 2011)

editor said:


> Have you considered the possibility that it was the only photo immediately available to the press? But seeing as you're the one insisting that this was part of a carefully orchestrated campaign of 'softening up,' the onus is on you to provide proof of that claims, rather than fact-free opinion.
> 
> So, what have you got?



So what? The picture fitted the nasty roid rage perfectly, it was very helpful. Now the press nor police would never use such a picture to give such a story a helpful narrative, oh no, perish the thought. What have I got? What have you got, apart from no chainsaw exactly?


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## editor (Aug 23, 2011)

cirrus said:


> Jeesus ---- you've been doing this forum for tooo long..


Sorry I can't join in with your knee-jerking and insist on doing boring old things like waiting for facts to emerge. I guess that's the journalist in me.

Oh, and don't use my real name please.


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## Fedayn (Aug 23, 2011)

editor said:


> Sorry I can't join in with your knee-jerking and insist on doing boring old things like waiting for facts to emerge. I guess that's the journalist in me.



Was specualating about a possible chainsaw part of the journalist in you?


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## editor (Aug 23, 2011)

Fedayn said:


> So what? The picture fitted the nasty roid rage perfectly, it was very helpful. Now the press nor police would ever use such a picture to gice such a story a narrative, oh no.


You made an emphatic claim of some sort of conspiratorial action, yet you have been unable to back it up. That is exactly what I was referring to when I talked of you 'jumping to conclusions.'

But if we run with your exciting 'softening up' theory, how do you explain the fact that media outlets ran other photographs, like the one posted by cirrus? Do I really need to tell you how many papers ran that photo?


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## editor (Aug 23, 2011)

Fedayn said:


> Was specualating about a possible chainsaw part of the journalist in you?


This is desperate and totally irrelevant stuff. I was describing a _scenario_ and a rather daft one at that. I was not making a _claim_, and have been at lengths throughout this thread to suggest others desist from doing so until some *facts* emerge.

You, on the other hand, have made an empathic claim about a police/media conspiracy and it's one that you seem unable to back up in any meaningful way at all.


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## cirrus (Aug 23, 2011)

Fact: Dale is dead. Fact: the police tasered him multiple times. Fact: the guy was alone in the flat for chrissakes. That is enough facts for me to _think_ the police badly mis-managed the situation. It is my _belief_ their actions were totally ott.
That is my opinion. I'm not going to wait until the IPCC has done their thing to post an opinion ffs.

I always tend to give police the deficit of the doubt as I know for a FACT that most of them are thick as 2 short planks and will post up the evidence for that when I get a chance..


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## Fedayn (Aug 23, 2011)

editor said:


> You made an emphatic claim of some sort of conspiratorial action, yet you have been unable to back it up. That is exactly what I was referring to when I talked of you 'jumping to conclusions.'
> 
> But if we run with your exciting 'softening up' theory, how do you explain the fact that media outlets ran other photographs, like the one posted by cirrus? Do I really need to tell you how many papers ran that photo?



At no point did I say it was the only photo being used, it is however a pretty glaring image that certainly has a narrative to it. I think it was a very carefully chosen picture yes. It tells a story as well you know because of how it shows him, the reaction by some on here tells us that story.... You made a remark about how he wouldn'#t need to be tooled up because of how he looks so it did it's job.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 23, 2011)

editor said:


> All that depends on a multitude of factors, almost none of which you are currently privy to, so I'd say that it's fair to say that anyone making conclusions about the specific circumstances of this case are jumping to conclusions, at the very least.


pls show me where i drew a conclusion. i said it was safe to say it was a fair bet they mismanaged it, not sergeant plum did it in the hall with the taser.


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## Streathamite (Aug 23, 2011)

editor said:


> I have made no 'claims' about liability, misconduct or what supposedly _really happened_ anywhere in this thread, and that's because until some evidence is realised, I haven't the faintest idea of the precise circumstances of this case.
> 
> As far as I can see, you have no inside info here, but that doesn't seemed to have stopped you projecting your opinions based on, well, thin air.
> 
> If the cops are found to have acted illegally, then I want to see them slapped down in the courts hard but until I know some *facts*, I'm not going to jump to conclusions. Maybe you should try that sometime.


I'm asking this purely out of curiosity; does not the OB's extensive pedigree of smearing their victims (jarrett/De Menezes/Tomlinson/duggan etc.) make you ever-so-suspicious?


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## Streathamite (Aug 23, 2011)

cirrus said:


> Ok I have been training brazilian jiujitsu with Dale up in Kendal. That photo is old and looks nothing like the Dale I know. This is Dale:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


my deepest and most heartfelt condolences over the death of your mate.


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## editor (Aug 23, 2011)

Streathamite said:


> I'm asking this purely out of curiosity; does not the OB's extensive pedigree of smearing their victims (jarrett/De Menezes/Tomlinson/duggan etc.) make you ever-so-suspicious?


I'm always suspicious of the OB, but I'm failing to be convinced that some media-wide smearing campaign was put into action here seeing as other photos appeared.


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## Streathamite (Aug 23, 2011)

editor said:


> I'm always suspicious of the OB, but I'm failing to be convinced that some media-wide smearing campaign was put into action here seeing as other photos appeared.


Ok fair enough


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## editor (Aug 23, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> pls show me where i drew a conclusion.


Try reading my post properly. I didn't make any such claim about you.


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## cirrus (Aug 23, 2011)

Thankyou Streathamite.

Another young man has died after being detained by the police:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-pepper-sprayed-arrested-ELEVEN-officers.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/23/suspect-dies-police-pepper-spray


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## Streathamite (Aug 23, 2011)

cirrus said:


> Thankyou Streathamite.
> 
> Another young man has died after being detained by the police:
> 
> ...


fucking hell.


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## TopCat (Aug 23, 2011)

editor said:


> Sorry to hear about the loss of your friend, but surely you should really only be posting up judgements about whether the police's conduct was "badly managed" and "over the top" when the precise circumstances of the incident are released?


It's his mate! You are coming across really badly here.


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## Streathamite (Aug 23, 2011)

cirrus said:


> Fact: Dale is dead. Fact: the police tasered him multiple times. Fact: the guy was alone in the flat for chrissakes. That is enough facts for me to _think_ the police badly mis-managed the situation. It is my _belief_ their actions were totally ott.
> That is my opinion. I'm not going to wait until the IPCC has done their thing to post an opinion ffs.
> 
> I always tend to give police the deficit of the doubt as I know for a FACT that most of them are thick as 2 short planks and will post up the evidence for that when I get a chance..


agree with this, but i think it's prolly best to keep calm and wait for further info to emerge, tho' I can appreciate you don't feel overly inclined that way right now, and neither would I, were I you.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 23, 2011)

editor said:


> Try reading my post properly. I didn't make any such claim about you.


you quoted my post and talked about making conclusions and jumping to conclusions so the conclusion i drew was you were talking about me. what other conclusion would you suggest i draw?


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## editor (Aug 23, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> you quoted my post and talked about making conclusions and jumping to conclusions so the conclusion i drew was you were talking about me. what other conclusion would you suggest i draw?


Here's what I wrote:





> ..so I'd say that it's fair to say that *anyone* making conclusions about the specific circumstances of this case *are* jumping to conclusions, at the very least


See? It's not all about you, Mr Ego.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 23, 2011)

editor said:


> Here's what I wrote:See? It's not all about you, Mr Ego.


this is the first time i've seen someone selectively quote themselves!

you seem to have forgotten the 'you' earlier in the sentence you partially quote.


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## editor (Aug 23, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> this is the first time i've seen someone selectively quote themselves!
> 
> you seem to have forgotten the 'you' earlier in the sentence you partially quote.


To repeat: it really isn't all about you, unless your name is 'Anyone'.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 23, 2011)

editor said:


> To repeat: it really isn't all about you, unless your name is 'Anyone'.


i'd like to believe you but you make it difficult when you go about quoting people and apparently replying to them ('All that depends on a multitude of factors, almost none of which you are currently privy to...'). in that context it seems perverse for you to persist in asserting your post wasn't a reply to me.


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## TopCat (Aug 24, 2011)

editor said:


> I'm always suspicious of the OB, but I'm failing to be convinced that some media-wide smearing campaign was put into action here seeing as other photos appeared.


Despite the proven corrupt relationship between News International and the police?

How many similar corrupt relationships are there between the police and the media?

Given the repeated lies published by many sections of the media when the police kill people, a dollop of scepticism would seem sensible with regard to anything that has been published by the media pointing to reasonable actions by the police as an explanation for killing yet another person.


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## editor (Aug 24, 2011)

TopCat said:


> Despite the proven corrupt relationship between News International and the police?
> 
> How many similar corrupt relationships are there between the police and the media?
> 
> Given the repeated lies published by many sections of the media when the police kill people, a dollop of scepticism would seem sensible with regard to anything that has been published by the media pointing to reasonable actions by the police as an explanation for killing yet another person.


Scepticism is always healthy, but jumping to outright conclusions and making bold claims of media-wide conspiracies needs proof. Besides, the claim is laughably weak anyway seeing as other, less aggressive photos of the victim have been widely published by the media.


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## TopCat (Aug 24, 2011)

I don't think the claim was weak and it's certainly not a laughing matter. Carry on giving the benefit of the doubt to the police if you wish, perhaps exercise a bit of sensitivity as to where you do it though.


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## editor (Aug 24, 2011)

TopCat said:


> I don't think the claim was weak and it's certainly not a laughing matter.


So what evidence do you have that a media-wide conspiracy was in place to misrepresent the victim, and how do you get around the argument-crushing fact that other photos of him were being freely published in the mainstream press _at exactly the same time?_


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## Fedayn (Aug 24, 2011)

editor said:


> Scepticism is always healthy, but jumping to outright conclusions and making bold claims of media-wide conspiracies needs proof. Besides, the claim is laughably weak anyway seeing as other, less aggressive photos of the victim have been widely published by the media.



Can you point to anyone saying there was a 'media-wide conspiracy'? Was that phrase used by anyone who was/is a tad more sceptical/suspicious than you re the behaviopur actions of the police in this case? I looked at my posts and can't find any claim of a media-wide conspiracy. Imho there is a notable difference between claiming a 'media wide conspiracy' and sayin that the particular photo in has a rather clear narrative. And that it's use certainly softens the reader/public/viewer up for what may come.....


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## editor (Aug 24, 2011)

Fedayn said:


> Can you point to anyone saying there was a 'media-wide conspiracy'? Was that phrase used by anyone who was/is a tad more sceptical/suspicious than you re the behaviopur actions of the police in this case? I looked at my posts and can't find any claim of a media-wide conspiracy. Imho there is a notable difference between claiming a 'media wide conspiracy' and sayin that the particular photo in has a rather clear narrative. And that it's use certainly softens the reader/public/viewer up for what may come.....


But your 'softening up' claims don't make any sense at all _because other photos were being published across multiple media outlets_.


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## Fedayn (Aug 24, 2011)

editor said:


> But your 'softening up' claims don't make any sense at all _because other photos were being published across multiple media outlets_.



They make perfect sense, a photo had a certain use, the readership of that particular bit of media would have a view formed based on the article and picture. That it may be changed by other outlets does not negate the effect the first pic had was intended to have. I should have been more accurate, I should have been less ambiguous, but it does not change the fact that a picture published in the press carried a very certain 'look' of the accused. How someone who read that article and saw that picture would be different to how someone who saw the pic cirrus posted would it not? You even made a remark about him not needing a weapon based on his picture ie the all muscled up one. Would you have made the same comment if you'd only seen cirrus pic at that point?


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## editor (Aug 24, 2011)

Fedayn said:


> I should have been more accurate, I should have been less ambiguous....


Perhaps you should have said that at the time, while noticing that just about all the media outlets were publishing 'softer' photos too, thus destroying any argument you were attempting to construct. And, again, you've yet to counter the possibility that the photo might have been the only one that was available to the editor when the story broke.

Your posts on this have been all speculation, knee jerk and agenda-led supposition and that _never_ helps when you're trying to find the truth of the matter and having a go at me for pointing this out doesn't do you any favours either.


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## Fedayn (Aug 24, 2011)

editor said:


> Perhaps you should have said that at the time, while noticing that just about all the media outlets were publishing 'softer' photos too, *thus destroying any argument you were attempting to construct*.



No it doesn't destroy it at all. I never said it was media wide for one, so your claims regarding that little fallacy are a non-starter. Secondly just because other media outlets did something different doesn't make the story and narrative carried by the outlet in question any less deliberate or make their attempted narrative any less real.


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## WWWeed (Aug 24, 2011)

GMP have just killed another man with a tazer, making this the third 'non-lethal' weapon deployment this week that has resulted in the death of a member of the public.


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## claphamboy (Aug 24, 2011)

WWWeed said:


> GMP have just killed another man with a tazer, making this the third 'non-lethal' weapon deployment this week that has resulted in the death of a member of the public.



How can you claim GMP killed him with a tazer, *when he had already stabbed himself?*


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## WWWeed (Aug 24, 2011)

claphamboy said:


> How can you claim GMP killed him with a tazer, *when he had already stabbed himself?*


From what I can tell they shot first and then found out he had been stabbed. Tazer shots dont tend to do young healthy people any good let alone 53 year olds.

Fair enough it may or may not have killed him. We will have to wait and see.


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## hegley (Aug 24, 2011)

WWWeed said:


> *From what I can tell they shot first and then found out he had been stabbed.* Tazer shots dont tend to do young healthy people any good let alone 53 year olds.



That's not what the article says at all ...



> Police were told that Hulmes, who was armed with a knife, had locked himself in, was making threats and had begun to stab himself.


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## DaveCinzano (Sep 7, 2012)

*Update*

Dale Burns' younger brother and a friend have been convicted of obstruction & assault after giving a copper the finger...



> PC Gareth Sargent told the court he had been driving a police van when he passed Jordan Burns who stuck up his middle finger.
> PC Sargent said he stopped and got out to talk to Burns.
> 
> He said: “Mr Burns was shouting something in relation to the fact I had killed his brother.”


 
As the defence brief put it, there were “inconsistencies in the crown’s case”.

http://www.nwemail.co.uk/news/scuff...w-taser-incident-1.992994?referrerPath=sport/


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