# knife violence and murders among youth



## DotCommunist (Nov 7, 2018)

Further to a derail on another thread, this week sees yet another fatal stabbing. I read this piece and thought it made some interesting points. The pervasiveness of violence in young mens lives, the 'logic' of weaponry. All too familiar from working class male upbringing. 
Adolescents | Richard Seymour on Patreon



> Whether or not the violence of adolescents ends, the violence of adolescence usually does. Not always and not immediately, but it winds down. The struggle for survival and social position changes gears after secondary school. It stops being about who can batter whom at least, for most people, one-on-one. The tempo of social violence shifts. It stops being so omnipresent. It becomes more avoidable. Helplessness is, by increment, reduced. Boys are being murdered, or becoming murderers, in squalid circumstances in tube stations and chicken shops before they get the chance to find this out.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Nov 7, 2018)

Where do you go though? Other than legalise and regulate the drugs market. Cos at the end of the day, these killings are about the drugs market.


But you can't get a sensible debate on legalising drugs.

You can't get a sensible debate on the current carnage; LBC this morning Ferrarri commends caller who went: Not allowed to discipline kids ----> not allowed to educate them ----> National service ----> death penalty


----------



## ElizabethofYork (Nov 7, 2018)

Is it really all about the drugs market?


----------



## editor (Nov 7, 2018)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Where do you go though? Other than legalise and regulate the drugs market. Cos at the end of the day, these killings are about the drugs market.
> 
> 
> But you can't get a sensible debate on legalising drugs.
> ...


Twitter and FB is full of people thinking that a permanent Section 60 stop and search policy is the way to fix things.


----------



## eatmorecheese (Nov 7, 2018)

ElizabethofYork said:


> Is it really all about the drugs market?


In terms of how youth violence became so lethal? Yes imo.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Nov 7, 2018)

ElizabethofYork said:


> Is it really all about the drugs market?



Maybe not, it's probably a question of degree. But there's one good way to find out.


----------



## Smangus (Nov 7, 2018)

maybe we should look to Glasgow and how they fixed their problems for an answer.


----------



## 8ball (Nov 7, 2018)

Knives are very easy to obtain and it's difficult to regulate in the same manner as guns.  
A cultural change towards less lethal weaponry and sanctioned areas for them to beat seven bells out of each other might be a start.


----------



## hammerntongues (Nov 7, 2018)

Smangus said:


> maybe we should look to Glasgow and how they fixed their problems for an answer.



I think we are but it took 10 years


----------



## 8ball (Nov 7, 2018)

hammerntongues said:


> I think we are but it took 10 years



Hard to do these things fast.


----------



## Manter (Nov 7, 2018)

Smangus said:


> maybe we should look to Glasgow and how they fixed their problems for an answer.


What did they do?


----------



## maomao (Nov 7, 2018)

ElizabethofYork said:


> Is it really all about the drugs market?


It's not the reason for every deadly quarrel but it's the main economic driver of London's gangs and one of the main reasons that the violence has become acceptable to parts of society.


----------



## hammerntongues (Nov 7, 2018)

8ball said:


> Hard to do these things fast.



Agreed and yes it did seem to be particularly effective BUT it needs financial commitment for a long period , somehow politics always seeks a quick fix .


----------



## hammerntongues (Nov 7, 2018)

Manter said:


> What did they do?



About the Violence Reduction Unit


----------



## Cid (Nov 7, 2018)

It’s worth actually reading the article linked in the op- talking about violence as endemic in school age boys. In a sense that may or may not see expression in gangs, but in the context of the article is something much deeper, rooted in fear.


----------



## likesfish (Nov 7, 2018)

the Drug market is the main mover of this thing the amount of cash available raises the stakes and being on something offer lowers your rationality.
 most of the rest is fallout by wannabes trying to get in with a gang or seeing them as role models so stupid arguments become lethal.
  the weird thing about knives it's very easy to kill when you didn't intend too quite hard to stab someone to death quickly and quietly though.
	One of those pass the time lessons that got really interesting SAS Sgt reckoned silenced pistols were overall a much better choice than fucking about with blades.. 
   militarily if you end up having to kill someone with a knife things have really gone tits up and the guy bleeding out hours later isn't really going to help you.


----------



## hammerntongues (Nov 7, 2018)

I am sure that at the extreme end of the problem then drugs and the drugs trade will make things worse and the easy  profits from the trade will ensure that it is protected by extreme violence but I am not so sure that the drugs trade is ultimately the problem . I grew up in a relatively respectable part of Essex and in my young teens was witness to and at times party to casual violence , it wasnt drug related is was territorial  . Later it drifted into football violence , again not drugs related but tribal . Drugs were out there but it wasnt the cause .


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 7, 2018)

8ball said:


> Knives are very easy to obtain and it's difficult to regulate in the same manner as guns.
> A cultural change towards less lethal weaponry and sanctioned areas for them to beat seven bells out of each other might be a start.


yeh, back in the 90s there were regular fights in north finchley on a friday and saturday night, large scale affairs too, involving a couple of dozen or more people,  by the auld bus station. quite gentlemanly affairs, you could watch from quite close quarters without being dragged into the event. sadly stopped after someone got killed (run over, not stabbed)


----------



## stuff_it (Nov 7, 2018)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Where do you go though? Other than legalise and regulate the drugs market. Cos at the end of the day, these killings are about the drugs market.
> 
> 
> But you can't get a sensible debate on legalising drugs.
> ...


IME a lot of the kids suppplying drugs actually provide an essential income stream to their impoverished families. This is what needs to be tackled if the gang-related knife crime is to stop. They're fighting over crumbs, tbh not unlike our political overlords. You don't generally get ripped off by these kids - they know that there are 10 others waiting to take their place.

As I may have mentioned before, I'm not against gentrification per se so long as the people already in the area have real opportunity to also raise their level concurrently. This is something that will take a huge shift in economics that the country may not yet be ready for.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 7, 2018)

editor said:


> Twitter and FB is full of people thinking that a permanent Section 60 stop and search policy is the way to fix things.


yeh swamp 81 worked so well the first time round


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 7, 2018)

It would have been a surprise if 'austerity' hadn't seen a rise in violence, tbh.

Difficult to discuss in mainstream political debate because the law and order types will point to the poor kids not 'turning to crime' and seek to highlight the individual moral failings of those who do. And they would of course be partly right - being poor doesn't 'turn you into' a criminal. It just makes the rewards of such a turn far more appealing. Lots of poor kids don't turn to crime. But funnily enough a lot more rich kids don't.

Bleeding obvious point really, but it does get shouted down on the likes of Question Time.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 7, 2018)

stuff_it said:


> As I may have mentioned before, I'm not against gentrification per se so long as the people already in the area have real opportunity to also raise their level concurrently. This is something that will take a huge shift in economics that the country may not yet be ready for.


Urban regeneration without gentrification is what is needed. And for that, essentially you need social housing, and lots of it.


----------



## stuff_it (Nov 7, 2018)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Urban regeneration without gentrification is what is needed. And for that, essentially you need social housing, and lots of it.


Social housing doesn't fix the problem on it's own, especially in these days of housing associations and increasing social rents. Something needs to change about the lack of income streams and opportunity as well.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 7, 2018)

stuff_it said:


> Social housing doesn't fix the problem on it's own, especially in these days of housing associations and increasing social rents. Something needs to change about the lack of income streams and opportunity as well.


Lack of social housing is a huge part of why people are forced out of areas to be replaced by more affluent types, and is the driving force behind gentrification - people are forced out of the area because they're a million miles away from buying, they stand zero chance of a council flat, and private rents are going through the roof. Especially somewhere like London, where you'll be paying, say, 700 quid a month for a room in a house even in a cheaper area. Social housing with a proper social rent, of course - I'm not talking part-rent part-buy cons or anything like that. Properly affordable social housing would raise the effective income of a great many people by stopping private landlords from stealing their wages.


----------



## stuff_it (Nov 7, 2018)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Lack of social housing is a huge part of why people are forced out of areas to be replaced by more affluent types, and is the driving force behind gentrification - people are forced out of the area because they're a million miles away from buying, they stand zero chance of a council flat, and private rents are going through the roof. Especially somewhere like London, where you'll be paying, say, 700 quid a month for a room in a house even in a cheaper area. Social housing with a proper social rent, of course - I'm not talking part-rent part-buy cons or anything like that. Properly affordable social housing would raise the income of a great many people while stopping private landlords from stealing their wages.


A lot of the violence is from families who haven't been forced out - rather it's the children of families who have been ghettoized in increasingly affluent areas.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 7, 2018)

stuff_it said:


> A lot of the violence is from families who haven't been forced out - rather it's the children of families who have been ghettoized in increasingly affluent areas.


Social housing doesn't solve all problems, but I am suggesting that it does solve the current problem, which stretches back years now, whereby urban regeneration inevitably leads to gentrification, and that is destructive in many different ways.


----------



## stuff_it (Nov 7, 2018)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Social housing doesn't solve all problems, but I am suggesting that it does solve the current problem, which stretches back years now, whereby urban regeneration inevitably leads to gentrification, and that is destructive in many different ways.


I'm not denying that it would help solve some of the current issues. However, I feel that systemic issues to do with lack of opportunity and betterment are also essential to solving the problem. With boys especially, there isn't the 'out' of getting pregnant and thus getting housed, for example. If you can never afford your social rent if you work, why bother, etc...


----------



## stuff_it (Nov 7, 2018)

Also if crime means your littler brothers and sisters have shoes that fit and access to a playstation, and even that your family has enough electricity in the meter - well that's an attractive prospect that brings a lot of self respect.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 7, 2018)

stuff_it said:


> Also if crime means your littler brothers and sisters have shoes that fit and access to a playstation, and even that your family has enough electricity in the meter - well that's an attractive prospect that brings a lot of self respect.


Absolutely. Sorry to be clear, I was replying specifically to your gentrification point. I don't agree with you that gentrification isn't a bad thing in and of itself. I think it really is, and the trick has to be to improve areas while preventing it from happening. 

There are all kinds of things that need to be done to change the structures of society. That's one. Increasing investment in youth services is another - currently they are being decimated. A complete change in attitudes towards the criminalisation of drug-taking is another. Further reform of the racist police force and its racist policies is another. 

Or... bring back the birch/borstal/national service, etc, etc, etc.


----------



## 8ball (Nov 7, 2018)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Urban regeneration without gentrification is what is needed. And for that, essentially you need social housing, and lots of it.



Some degree of influx will be a good thing in some cases (for instance, doctors, nurses, schoolteachers moving into the area), but on the broad point, yeah.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 7, 2018)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Lack of social housing is a huge part of why people are forced out of areas to be replaced by more affluent types, and is the driving force behind gentrification


no, the driving force behind gentrification is the middle class moving into an area:

2. History and Explanation of Gentrification - Gentrification


----------



## not-bono-ever (Nov 7, 2018)

It’s all of the above and more- I don’t think you can pin it down to any overriding cause apart from deprivation and class. Massive insecurity and a sprinkling of mental illness that is pretty much ignored doesn’t help. The behaviours exhibited can be seen as early as primary school school starters now / this isn’t going to go away in a score of years , never mind a decade. Horrendous. Utterly sickening negligence by successive governments.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Nov 7, 2018)

Cunts 


Sorry, had to get it out


----------



## likesfish (Nov 7, 2018)

Glasgow has managed it so it proves it can be turned around even if it takes decades no reason not to start now.
It's not a crime problem Its a Social Health problem.
Poverty lack of opportunities in education because without qualifications and education your opportunities are limited.
 take the poverty away the gangs will wither you don't see undergraduates hanging around street corners starting fights with knives (you don't need to go to college you do need a job though).


----------



## PursuedByBears (Nov 7, 2018)

Cid said:


> It’s worth actually reading the article linked in the op- talking about violence as endemic in school age boys. In a sense that may or may not see expression in gangs, but in the context of the article is something much deeper, rooted in fear.



The article really resonated with my memories of growing up in a crappy midlands town in the 80s, the threat of violence was always there.  No idea how to change things though


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 7, 2018)

likesfish said:


> Glasgow has managed it so it proves it can be turned around even if it takes decades no reason not to start now.
> It's not a crime problem Its a Social Health problem.
> Poverty lack of opportunities in education because without qualifications and education your opportunities are limited.
> take the poverty away the gangs will wither you don't see undergraduates hanging around street corners starting fights with knives (you don't need to go to college you do need a job though).



Iceland is also worth looking at. They tackled a growing drug problem among the youth with two measures, one of which you couldn't do here but the other you could. The one you couldn't do here was the imposition of a curfew! No chance here - it would be counterproductive, racist police, etc. But with that came the opportunity to do all kinds of activities - sports, music, arts, etc. It's been credited as a major reason for the rise in the Iceland football team. 

This is what makes me despair at the slashing of youth services budgets. Aside from the human cost, it is a classic example of false economy  - it costs way more long term.


----------



## crossthebreeze (Nov 7, 2018)

While its no where near as entrenched or the murder rate as high as in London, I'm increasingly aware that something is going on in the west end of Newcastle where I live and work.  There was a stabbing murder of a young man at the weekend, a few others over the last couple of years, and a few incidents of fights with weapons.  Part of my job involves looking after public space, and over the last month or two I keep finding weapons hidden in bushes or behind walls - and not the pocket knifes and paring knives and box cutters that I've found before that could possibly have been carried for a legitimate reason and dropped by accident - large kitchen knives, cleavers, baseball bats, a hammer with what looks like blood on it wrapped in a bag, someone's Bangladeshi nana's Bonti - its definitely about weapons aimed to scare (but which also would do damage). There's definitely a change in behaviour and increase in tension with some of the young people. Its scary.  And at just this moment the local youth club loses funding and closes (after every other service has closed or been cut in some way).  Cunts.


----------



## stuff_it (Nov 7, 2018)

I strongly feel that knife crime is a symptom of failings in the economy.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 7, 2018)

Social housing is certainly needed, but where's the space for it, especially in inner London? 

Here in Worthing we have a problem with space, the borough has built-out to the borders of the district councils to the west & east, and likewise to the north & south, where we border the South Downs National Park & the sea. 

Some brown field/former retail sites are being developed for housing, the council has recently taken over a former pub to turn into 12 or so flats to house the homeless, but these options are limited, and go no near to what is required, it's a serious problem, surely it's even worst in London?


----------



## Edie (Nov 7, 2018)

Ive been pretty shocked at the level of casual violence at my sons school. I’m a woman but I just don’t remember it being that bad in the 90s. There seem to be pretty vicious fights on a weekly basis that the kids film. I mean lads on the floor being booted and stamped on kind of shocking violence, not just lots of mouth and squaring up and maybe a few punches thrown. There also seems to be a trade in ‘weapons’ (knuckle dusters, BB guns, fireworks, never a knife that I’ve heard of). The school has a dedicated police officer and it’s not just for show the guy actually arrests if he needs to (my eldest is in year 11 and I still can’t get over this fact, a fucking police officer to try and protect kids in school!).

I dunno how much the drug trade is fuelling this, it’s leeds not London. Lack of opportunity definitely. Poverty. A lot of parents frankly not giving enough of a shit. One of the biggest problems they have is non attendance, kids just don’t go and parents don’t make them. Any point excluding a kid like that? No. It becomes really difficult for the school to discipline kids cos essentially they do as they please, they simply walk out.

I think the lack of proper authority figures, basically proper adults, in a lot of these young people’s lives means there’s a general attitude of survival of the most violent. And it’s matched with this stupid culture of not snitching at any cost, and the cost is high. When my eldest fell out with some lads who went on to get arrested for burglary he was threatened repeatedly with being stabbed. He was fourteen! It almost certainly was bravado bullshit but I still had to talk with him that in no circumstances was he ever to carry a knife even for self defence. It really is shit and it’s not all poor families it comes down to opportunity yes but also just decency.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 7, 2018)

Lord of the Flies


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 7, 2018)

What about Stop and Search policies?
I know they’re regarded as racist but surely kids having this intrusion to their civil liberties is preferable to the fear they’re currently living under and them dying at the rate they are?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 7, 2018)

As an ex-police officer I know stop and search is no solution to knife crime | Leroy Logan



> When I was the deputy borough commander of Hackney, east London, from 2004 to 2007, I was in charge of the safer neighbourhood teams, whose purpose was to build trust and confidence and improve two-way information sharing. I also had safer schools officers in each of the borough’s secondary schools. These all generated significant intelligence on why and where violent crime was occurring, and helped in crime prevention.
> 
> *I realised then that we could not arrest our way out of the knife crime problem, since it bore no correlation with stop and search. This is still the case today, according to Home Office data: the proportion of stop and searches that end in arrest for carrying a knife is less than 5%.* The Met undertook 300,000 stop and searches last year (more than 50% of all stops nationally); and given that black people are eight times more likely to be stopped than white people, there’s little doubt the resentment it causes has an impact on community intelligence, an essential ingredient in effective policing. Added to this, the safer neighbourhood teams have now been drastically cut under austerity, like many police resources. The Met has fewer than 30,000 officers for the first time in 15 years, and has 700 fewer detectives than it had a few years ago.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 7, 2018)

It’s almost like they’re not bothered about building intelligence-led profiles of those committing these types of offences in working class communities but have everything at their disposal to follow political activists about.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 7, 2018)

Police powers and procedures, England and Wales, year ending 31 March 2018

Stop and search


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 7, 2018)

What’s your argument then. You’re against stop and search as a form of pressure against this type of offending?


----------



## 8ball (Nov 7, 2018)

As well as adult role models, I think these kids need credible peers that can show them alternatives, and also speak to them about the stupid bloody waste that comes from taking certain paths.

They also need confidence that society at large has their back.  

Theirs is a mini-society that feels totally detached from other generations and from what is going on generally, like it’s own little parallel universe existing in the same space.

I carried a knife to school myself for a while.  These kids feel totally alone and vulnerable when outside their “manor”, and feel they need to defend their area and friends with violence because they don’t see other options.  How could they when the world just regards then as a pest control problem?

Stop and search just confirms to them what society at large thinks of them.


----------



## agricola (Nov 7, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> It’s almost like they’re not bothered about building intelligence-led profiles of those committing these types of offences in working class communities but have everything at their disposal to follow political activists about.



That is perhaps not unconnected to the fact that money has been taken out of the units that are based in or deal with local communities (and in many cases the units themselves or their stations have been taken out of the communities) whilst money has been put into those units that deal with extremism, counterrorism etc.


----------



## Edie (Nov 7, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> What about Stop and Search policies?
> I know they’re regarded as racist but surely kids having this intrusion to their civil liberties is preferable to the fear they’re currently living under and them dying at the rate they are?


The problem with them is that young black & Asian men are stopped more often than young white men, and when they are stopped & searched the police often seem to abuse their power.

What’s needed are good stable jobs and less people on benefits, with more housing and lower housing costs. Then there’s a solid future.

There’s also a massive need for youth clubs. You’d think kids would scorn these but again & again from my sons and their mates I hear that they’d want to go. All they want to do at this age is hang out with a few activities (pool table, drinks machine, basketball hoop, console). This doesn’t exist in my area, the nearest ones are miles away (I’ve driven them and their mates sometimes). Between the ages of 12 and 16 the choices are the street, your bedroom or your mates bedroom. I try and not have mine out on the street after dark (in winter that’s hard).

There needs to be more responsibility among men to actively bring up their kids, and on women if they’re separated to allow and encourage that. Sons especially need fathers.

And this may be unpopular but I think there needs to be a change in culture around kids and young people respecting adults. If a teacher disciplines your kid then in all but the most exceptional circumstances (basically unless the teacher is being abusive in some way) as a parent you support the teacher. My kids constantly bitch on at me that I don’t ‘have their backs’ like other parents do, that I’m not on their side. Cos I’m bloody not! If they feel hard done by then they need to learn how to deal with the situation, even if it really is unfair. 

I just don’t hold with this ‘all coppers are bastards’ or my kids shouldn’t be put in isolation or shouted at or excluded. In over a decade of school I’ve yet to come across a teacher who if you have an actual conversation with them doesn’t actually have a proper handle on your kid and where it’s going wrong. They’re your partners, so do your kid a favour and work with them. Same with the PCOS I’ve had dealings with. Kids need boundaries no matter how much they (pretend) they don’t like them. My two tell me ‘it’s really annoying your so strict but I know it’s cos you care’. And there it is.

Anyway that’s my take on it.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 7, 2018)

8ball said:


> As well as adult role models, I think these kids need credible peers that can show them alternatives, and also speak to them about the stupid bloody waste that comes from taking certain paths.
> 
> They also need confidence that society at large has their back.
> 
> ...



Oh Fuck off. It’s mostly drug related (and protecting/expanding territories) so stop and search will completely change the way those involved organise.
And the important people to consider are those whose communities are hell because of this stuff, not the lumpen cunts causing the problems.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 7, 2018)

Edie said:


> The problem with them is that young black & Asian men are stopped more often than young white men, and when they are stopped & searched the police often seem to abuse their power.
> 
> What’s needed are good stable jobs and less people on benefits, with more housing and lower housing costs. Then there’s a solid future.
> 
> ...



I agree that there has to be an economic answer, I’m a communist but we have a conservative govt. 
I’d rather my kid had the inconvenience of police intrusion though than be dead.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 7, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> What’s your argument then. *You’re against stop and search as a form of pressure against this type of offending?*





You aren't interested in stats then? You posited this question...



> What about Stop and Search policies?
> I know they’re regarded as racist but surely kids having this intrusion to their civil liberties is preferable to the fear they’re currently living under and them dying at the rate they are?



I provided some evidence to help us all think about this issue more fully...you respond by demanding I outline an argument and then ascribe one for me...Fuck off. I've spent my day making older people safer and more independent at home, excuse me if I've yet to have my dinner and write you an essay.

I'll get back to this in my own time, not yours.


----------



## 8ball (Nov 7, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Oh Fuck off. It’s mostly drug related (and protecting/expanding territories) so stop and search will completely change the way those involved organise.
> And the important people to consider are those whose communities are hell because of this stuff, not the lumpen cunts causing the problems.



Yeah, it means knives are more likely to be stashed rather than carried, while the targeting of stop and search generates more alienation and resentment.


----------



## Edie (Nov 7, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I agree that there has to be an economic answer, I’m a communist but we have a conservative govt.
> I’d rather my kid had the inconvenience of police intrusion though than be dead.


Yes. And my eldests two best mates are both black. And their mothers are waaaaaay more strict than me (I’m talking 15yo lads who have to be in their home or my house by 9pm, who ring to check with me that they are where they’re saying they are etc). I recently had a talk with one of them after our boys had got into trouble (well, mine turned out to be covering for hers for a change) and she TOLD me that’s partly because she doesn’t want him to be stopped by the police. That cannot be right can it.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 7, 2018)

8ball said:


> Yeah, it means knives are more likely to be stashed rather than carried, while the targeting of stop and search generates more alienation and resentment.



Amongst whom? Those fearing for their lives/communities?


----------



## Cid (Nov 7, 2018)

What are you going to do Magnus? A couple of coppers on every street corner? Knife arches if you want to leave your building?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 7, 2018)

Cid said:


> What are you going to do Magnus? A couple of coppers on every street corner? Knife arches if you want to leave your building?



It’s astonishing that cops are able to track any political activists who tickle their alerts and even insert officers into their lives but can’t work out which cunts carry knives, isn’t it?


----------



## killer b (Nov 7, 2018)

Tomorrow, the revolution! But until then, I guess we'll just have to support racist stop and search policies.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 7, 2018)

Edie said:


> Yes. And my eldests two best mates are both black. And their mothers are waaaaaay more strict than me (I’m talking 15yo lads who have to be in their home or my house by 9pm, who ring to check with me that they are where they’re saying they are etc). I recently had a talk with one of them after our boys had got into trouble (well, mine turned out to be covering for hers for a change) and she TOLD me that’s partly because she doesn’t want him to be stopped by the police. That cannot be right can it.



She is scared. The 'TALK' is a thing that many Black parents have with their male children. Even those that aren't out and about.

Black parents describe "The Talk" they give to their children about police

African-American parents say ‘The Talk’ is a life-and-death matter


----------



## Cid (Nov 7, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> It’s astonishing that cops are able to track any political activists who tickle their alerts and even insert officers into their lives but can’t work out which cunts carry knives, isn’t it?



Not remotely similar situation. 

I mean how many 10-17 year old coppers have you met?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 7, 2018)

Things I always think about when having this conversation:

I spent my younger years (from about 6 years old) frightened that my eldest brothers would be killed by the police or the NF.
I spent my teens and 20's-30's scared that my younger brother would be killed by the police or someone from ours or neighbouring areas.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 7, 2018)

killer b said:


> Tomorrow, the revolution! But until then, I guess we'll just have to support racist stop and search policies.



Yeah, Black lives don’t Matter.


----------



## likesfish (Nov 7, 2018)

stop and search can be a deterrent do enough of it and you disrupt the ability of anyone to carry a weapon in the area not sure the met have enough people on the street to do it and even if they did is it worth the hassle of pissing everybody off in the area.
  Political activists are an easy small specific group who advertise who they are.
 knife carrying working class  males between 12 and 25 to London don't advertise


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 7, 2018)

Rutita1 said:


> Things I always think about when having this conversation:
> 
> I spent my younger years (from about 6 years old) frightened that my eldest brothers would be killed by the police or the NF.
> I spent my teens and 20's-30's scared that my younger brother would be killed by the police or someone from ours or neighbouring areas.



Which is more likely?


----------



## Cid (Nov 7, 2018)

The idea this is drug related is wrong too... It's always been like this in London. In fact looking at the stats (pdf) it was worse in the 90s. I remember growing up as a boy violence was basically endemic. I lived in a nice house in Camden, but everywhere you went you looked over your shoulder. Mugging happened all the time, down any side street you care to chose. I can't definitely say what their motives were; boredom, attempt to get some sense of power. Drugs trade is just an arena for that violence and disaffection to play in.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 7, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Which is more likely?



My oldest brothers no longer live in the UK.
My youngest is now in his 40's.

So actually, probably the police.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 7, 2018)

Rutita1 said:


> My oldest brothers no longer live in the UK.
> My youngest is now in his 40's.
> 
> So actually, probably the police.



We’re discussing Nov 2018 though. And not your family in particular.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 7, 2018)

Cid said:


> The idea this is drug related is wrong too... It's always been like this in London. In fact looking at the stats (pdf) it was worse in the 90s. I remember growing up as a boy violence was basically endemic. I lived in a nice house in Camden, but everywhere you went you looked over your shoulder. Mugging happened all the time, down any side street you care to chose. I can't definitely say what their motives were; boredom, attempt to get some sense of power. Drugs trade is just an arena for that violence and disaffection to play in.



And we just let them get on with their civil liberties. Fuck the lumpen cunts. Ideally communities should organise against them but failing that yeah, let the bourgeoisie courts deal with them.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 7, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> We’re discussing Nov 2018 though. And not your family in particular.



You asked me...



> Which is more likely?



Based on a post about my older and younger brothers.

If you wanted to talk about other families you should have made that clear.


----------



## Edie (Nov 7, 2018)

Rutita1 said:


> She is scared. The 'TALK' is a thing that many Black parents have with their male children. Even those that aren't out and about.
> 
> Black parents describe "The Talk" they give to their children about police
> 
> African-American parents say ‘The Talk’ is a life-and-death matter


That video is heartbreaking. I struggle to imagine how it would feel to not be able to trust the police with my sons, if they themselves were also a threat. I know if my sons get caught doing something (so far shoplifting and being a little wanker on the bus, youngest and oldest respectively) the police will give them a bollocking. Even a fake asbo. But that’s been _helpful_ to me. But to have two fears, first that your kid might make the wrong choices, and a separate one that the police may just victimise your kid, that’s horrible.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 7, 2018)

Rutita1 said:


> You asked me...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



We’re talking about London in 2018. Only you think your family in the 90s is relevant.


----------



## Cid (Nov 7, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> And we just let them get on with their civil liberties. Fuck the lumpen cunts. Ideally communities should organise against them but failing that yeah, let the bourgeoisie courts deal with them.



There were a handful of occasions where we got the police involved. They never managed to catch anyone.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 7, 2018)

Cid said:


> There were a handful of occasions where we got the police involved. They never managed to catch anyone.



I bet there’s lots of other occasions where you’d get the police involved. But not black people being murdered. Three in the last week.


----------



## stuff_it (Nov 7, 2018)

likesfish said:


> stop and search can be a deterrent do enough of it and you disrupt the ability of anyone to carry a weapon in the area not sure the met have enough people on the street to do it and even if they did is it worth the hassle of pissing everybody off in the area.
> Political activists are an easy small specific group who advertise who they are.
> knife carrying working class  males between 12 and 25 to London don't advertise


They don't, but they do chuck an astonishing number of knives in London's waterways. I'd love to fish them all out and make a sculpture for the empty plinth.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 7, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> We’re talking about London in 2018. Only you think your family in the 90s is relevant.



Do you get a thrill out of being such a fucking meany or what? It's relevant as it provides context to how things have changed in our relationship with these issues over time. You've got  zero to offer in that regard it seems?

You didn't need to respond to my post about my brothers, nor be a prick about me linking to actual stats on this subject.

So shall I talk about my nieces and nephews now...shall I tell you about my god-children, my neighbour's kid, the kids of my friends?

You clearly have nothing to offer this conversation other than.._Yeah, search'em...not my problem._


----------



## Cid (Nov 7, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I bet there’s lots of other occasions where you’d get the police involved. But not black people being murdered. Three in the last week.



Yeah. Because when the police have a shit relationship with a group, e.g through regular stop and search, that group will close ranks.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 7, 2018)

Rutita1 said:


> Do you get a thrill out of being such a fucking meany or what? It's relevant as it provides context to how things have changed in our relationship with these issues over time. You've got  zero to offer in that regard it seems?
> 
> You didn't need to respond to my post about my brothers, nor be a prick about me linking to actual stats on this subject.
> 
> ...



Blimey. For some reason you think I’m arguing against your nephews and nieces rather than batting on their side.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 7, 2018)

Cid said:


> Yeah. Because when the police have a shit relationship with a group, e.g through regular stop and search, that group will close ranks.



So it has to be done with community consent.


----------



## stuff_it (Nov 7, 2018)

If you want to assume that the number of knives even just visible in the waterway/stream between Victoria Park and Hackney Wick alone are in the water because they have been used, then we can assume that they have literally NO idea how bad knife crime is in London.


----------



## Cid (Nov 7, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> So it has to be done with community consent.



To get that you'll need a racism-free, competent, well managed police force.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 7, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Blimey. For some reason you think I’m arguing against your nephews and nieces rather than batting on their side.



Blimey indeed.

You think my nieces and nephews experiences are completely different from my younger and older brothers?

There is no correlation?

You get to resign my comments and experiences to the 90's but have zero to offer yourself.

No.


----------



## stuff_it (Nov 7, 2018)

stuff_it said:


> If you want to assume that the number of knives even just visible in the waterway/stream between Victoria Park and Hackney Wick alone are in the water because they have been used, then we can assume that they have literally NO idea how bad knife crime is in London.


... And if every London waterway has at least that many knives...


----------



## Cid (Nov 7, 2018)

But y'know, we can fix this all by stopping knife sales on eBay.


----------



## Edie (Nov 7, 2018)

stuff_it said:


> If you want to assume that the number of knives even just visible in the waterway/stream between Victoria Park and Hackney Wick alone are in the water because they have been used, then we can assume that they have literally NO idea how bad knife crime is in London.


You can see knives in the stream?!


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 7, 2018)

Edie said:


> You can see knives in the stream?!



Canal. Yes, sometimes. Mostly it's still shopping trollys and tin cans though, like elsewhere.


----------



## stuff_it (Nov 7, 2018)

Edie said:


> You can see knives in the stream?!


Have a look if you're passing. There's bare knives in there.


----------



## Edie (Nov 7, 2018)

Rutita1 said:


> Canal. Yes, sometimes.


Bloody hell


----------



## DotCommunist (Nov 7, 2018)

more crude intervention policing of working class communities doesn't strike me as the winning ticket here. Taken to its logical conclusion  you get broken window policing and a lot more people in jail, people getting lifed off for peanuts. And it doesn't even solve anything, if the US experience is anything to go by it just makes shit worse.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 7, 2018)

Edie said:


> Bloody hell



See my edit... sorry.


----------



## Edie (Nov 7, 2018)

stuff_it said:


> Have a look if you're passing.


I’ve not lived in London for 16 years. But wow yeah I find that pretty shocking.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 7, 2018)

Rutita1 said:


> Blimey indeed.
> 
> You think my nieces and nephews experiences are completely different from my younger and older brothers?
> 
> ...



Ok. So given police intervention isn’t possible, what are you actually doing about the problem?


----------



## stuff_it (Nov 7, 2018)

Edie said:


> I’ve not lived in London for 16 years. But wow yeah I find that pretty shocking.


This is where I got the idea that I would like to fish them out and make a sculpture.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 7, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Ok. So given police intervention isn’t possible, what are you actually doing about the problem?



I am tackling it single-handedly as you know ...to even have an opinion and experiences here on Urban, under your watch that is the very least I should be  doing.

What are you doing no experience, self-righteous twit?


----------



## Cid (Nov 7, 2018)

What about you magnus? You thought of becoming Magistrate McGinty? Give 'em twelve months for looking shifty in the wrong place...


----------



## Edie (Nov 7, 2018)

stuff_it said:


> This is where I got the idea that I would like to fish them out and make a sculpture.


Why? It’s hardly something to be celebrated?


----------



## stuff_it (Nov 7, 2018)

Edie said:


> Why? It’s hardly something to be celebrated?


Which will be the point of the sculpture ...

Most people have no idea there is enough there to even make one, it's meant to draw attention to the issue.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 7, 2018)

Rutita1 said:


> I am tackling it single-handedly as you know ...to even have an opinion and experiences here on Urban, under your watch that is the very least I should be  doing.
> 
> What are you doing no experience, self-righteous twit?



I admit to myself that where community action isn’t possible, I have to defer to those my taxes pay to protect me rather than simply shrug as another child is disembowelled.
And you?


----------



## stuff_it (Nov 7, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I admit to myself that where community action isn’t possible, I have to defer to those my taxes pay to protect me rather than simply shrug as another child is disembowelled.
> And you?


If you and everyone you know pay taxes rather than receiving them then you probably have little experience of the matter.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 7, 2018)

stuff_it said:


> If you and everyone you know pay taxes rather than receiving them then you probably have little experience of the matter.



Given I live in London, and you don’t, perhaps your opinions are best directed to those slumming it in vans.


----------



## stuff_it (Nov 7, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Given I live in London, and you don’t, perhaps your opinions are best directed to those slumming it in vans.


I have lived in London plenty, some of the time in vans. The concepts aren't mutually exclusive.


----------



## Edie (Nov 7, 2018)

stuff_it said:


> If you and everyone you know pay taxes rather than receiving them then you probably have little experience of the matter.


That’s a daft thing to say.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 7, 2018)

stuff_it said:


> I have lived in London plenty, some of the time in vans. The concepts aren't mutually exclusive.



The victims of these crimes should shut up if they pay taxes because they don’t understand not paying taxes?


----------



## stuff_it (Nov 7, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> The victims of these crimes should shut up if they pay taxes because they don’t understand not paying taxes?


They shouldn't claim to have solutions for the problems they have only tangential experience of.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 7, 2018)

Edie said:


> That’s a daft thing to say.





Magnus McGinty said:


> Given I live in London, and you don’t, perhaps your opinions are best directed to those slumming it in vans.



So is this. 'Slumming it in vans' A real man of the people...a communist, who lives in London and shows almost zero awareness of it.   Am I missing something here? Fucking hell.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 7, 2018)

stuff_it said:


> They shouldn't claim to have solutions for the problems they have only tangential experience of.



Only perpetrators of crime can offer solutions?
This sounds quite mad.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 7, 2018)

Rutita1 said:


> So is this. 'Slumming it in vans' A real man of the people...a communist, who lives in London and shows almost zero awareness of it.   Am I missing something here? Fucking hell.



You didn’t answer my last question. Because you can’t.


----------



## stuff_it (Nov 7, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Only perpetrators of crime can offer solutions?
> This sounds quite mad.


Because if you're poor you're a criminal... 

Shilly rabbit, tricks are for kids.


----------



## Cid (Nov 7, 2018)

Rutita1 said:


> So is this. 'Slumming it in vans' A real man of the people...a communist, who lives in London and shows almost zero awareness of it.   Am I missing something here? Fucking hell.



Dunno, perfect material for the NKVD or similar...


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 7, 2018)

stuff_it said:


> Because if you're poor you're a criminal...
> 
> Shilly rabbit, tricks are for kids.



Kenneth Noye isn’t poor. 
So we support lumpen parasitism if it comes from poverty?


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Nov 7, 2018)

when I was  at a PRU it did seem that most of the knife carrying  kids  seemed to have had them under the impression that  there are already knives out there so you had to carry them or  you would be defenceless and that it would act as a deterrent.

it seems a vicious cycle. I need a knife  because everyone has knifes leading to  lots of people actually carrying knives  to knife normalcy.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 7, 2018)

Cid said:


> Dunno, perfect material for the NKVD or similar...



A posh lad speaks..


----------



## DotCommunist (Nov 7, 2018)

stuff_it said:


> This is where I got the idea that I would like to fish them out and make a sculpture.


the iron throne


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Nov 7, 2018)

DotCommunist said:


> the iron throne


The Stainless Steel Stool


----------



## MrSki (Nov 7, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> A posh lad speaks..


Thank god there are still some working class heroes that we can all look up to. 

I have not read that many of your posts so please excuse me if I have got the wrong impression but you do come across as a bit of a know-all twat.


----------



## dylanredefined (Nov 7, 2018)

Shippou-Sensei said:


> when I was  at a PRU it did seem that most of the knife carrying  kids  seemed to have had them under the impression that  there are already knives out there so you had to carry them or  you would be defenceless and that it would act as a deterrent.
> 
> it seems a vicious cycle. I need a knife  because everyone has knifes leading to  lots of people actually carrying knives  to knife normalcy.


 Which is bollocks either you stab someone or they stab you. You can't use a knife defensively .Pulling one out is not going to scare people off.


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Nov 7, 2018)

Not unless you're paul hogan


----------



## ska invita (Nov 8, 2018)

Cid said:


> The idea this is drug related is wrong too... It's always been like this in London. In fact looking at the stats (pdf) it was worse in the 90s. I remember growing up as a boy violence was basically endemic. I lived in a nice house in Camden, but everywhere you went you looked over your shoulder. Mugging happened all the time, down any side street you care to chose. I can't definitely say what their motives were; boredom, attempt to get some sense of power. Drugs trade is just an arena for that violence and disaffection to play in.


mate 90s camden was drugs nonstop...plus recession...plus there's still a lot of poverty in camden never mind then
id like to see that pdf  but the link isnt working...if you can be arsed to try again please do


----------



## ska invita (Nov 8, 2018)

two more stabbings tonight
Teenager fighting for his life after being stabbed in Shepherd's Bush
Man stabbed in broad daylight in Hackney in latest London violence


----------



## Cid (Nov 8, 2018)

ska invita said:


> mate 90s camden was drugs nonstop...plus recession...plus there's still a lot of poverty in camden
> id like to see that pdf  but the link isnt working...if you can be arsed to try again please do



It was, but it would be a stretch to link much of the day to day violence to drugs. I think drugs related violence implies something directly related to the trade, rather than kid who mugged someone might buy an eighth if you see what I mean. 

For links search 'SN04304 knife' it's a summary of some govt statistics, focussed on recent stuff, but some charts go back to 90s.


----------



## ska invita (Nov 8, 2018)

Cid said:


> It was, but it would be a stretch to link much of the day to day violence to drugs. I think drugs related violence implies something directly related to the trade, rather than kid who mugged someone might buy an eighth if you see what I mean.
> 
> For links search 'SN04304 knife' it's a summary of some govt statistics, focussed on recent stuff, but some charts go back to 90s.


thanks. yeah in that A2: OFFENCES RECORDED AS HOMICIDE BY APPARENT METHOD OF KILLING, sharp instrument
its been on average 200 since 1980 with peaks in mid 90s and early 2000s
interesting


----------



## maomao (Nov 8, 2018)

Cid said:


> but it would be a stretch to link much of the day to day violence to drugs. I think drugs related violence implies something directly related to the trade, rather than kid who mugged someone might buy an eighth if you see what I mean.


Cannabis isn't a major driver of petty crime. Heroin and cocaine are.


----------



## Edie (Nov 8, 2018)

Shippou-Sensei said:


> when I was  at a PRU it did seem that most of the knife carrying  kids  seemed to have had them under the impression that  there are already knives out there so you had to carry them or  you would be defenceless and that it would act as a deterrent.
> 
> it seems a vicious cycle. I need a knife  because everyone has knifes leading to  lots of people actually carrying knives  to knife normalcy.


This. And probably why you don’t get it so much in cities like Leeds? I feel so much for parents of teenage lads in London. It must be absolutely terrifying every time they’re out.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 8, 2018)

Cid said:


> The idea this is drug related is wrong too... It's always been like this in London. In fact looking at the stats (pdf) it was worse in the 90s. I remember growing up as a boy violence was basically endemic. I lived in a nice house in Camden, but everywhere you went you looked over your shoulder. Mugging happened all the time, down any side street you care to chose. I can't definitely say what their motives were; boredom, attempt to get some sense of power. Drugs trade is just an arena for that violence and disaffection to play in.


I was mugged on queen's crescent in 93, no knives used tho


----------



## stuff_it (Nov 8, 2018)

dylanredefined said:


> Which is bollocks either you stab someone or they stab you. You can't use a knife defensively .Pulling one out is not going to scare people off unless you're Crocodile Dundee.


CFY


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 8, 2018)

MrSki said:


> Thank god there are still some working class heroes that we can all look up to.
> 
> I have not read that many of your posts so please excuse me if I have got the wrong impression but you do come across as a bit of a know-all twat.



You’ve clearly read enough for them to irk you, but not enough to form a coherent counter argument.


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Nov 8, 2018)

stuff_it said:


> CFY



You're late to the joke


----------



## 8ball (Nov 8, 2018)

stuff_it said:


> Which will be the point of the sculpture ...
> 
> Most people have no idea there is enough there to even make one, it's meant to draw attention to the issue.



You might be subconsciously remembering something.

The Knife Angel – A Sculpture Made of 100,000 Knives Confiscated by the Police


----------



## stuff_it (Nov 8, 2018)

8ball said:


> You might be subconsciously remembering something.
> 
> The Knife Angel – A Sculpture Made of 100,000 Knives Confiscated by the Police


I expect that's it!


----------



## 8ball (Nov 8, 2018)

stuff_it said:


> I expect that's it!



That’s not the one I half-remembered, so there’s been at least one other.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Nov 8, 2018)

editor said:


> Twitter and FB is full of people thinking that a permanent Section 60 stop and search policy is the way to fix things.



I appreciate where you are coming from on this, and an upsurge in 'stop and search' is probably not the answer, do you have an answer?


----------



## skyscraper101 (Nov 8, 2018)

I'm in favour of banning drill music for a start.

Not necessarily because I think it'd help. Just because I think its mostly crap.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 8, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> You didn’t answer my last question. Because you can’t.



Just seen this. Self important twit demands I answer his questions then insists I can't answer them because I choose not to dance to his tune. Well if it makes you feel all big, strong and clever, carry on.


----------



## 8ball (Nov 8, 2018)

Sasaferrato said:


> I appreciate where you are coming from on this, and an upsurge in 'stop and search' is probably not the answer, do you have an answer?



Well, you're Scottish - there has been a lot of success in reducing knife crime in Scotland.
Some of the things done there may work, but some of the differences compared with the situation in London might mean some differences in approach.

And like has been said, even if done right it's going to take a long time.


----------



## 8ball (Nov 8, 2018)

8ball said:


> That’s not the one I half-remembered, so there’s been at least one other.



Also this.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Nov 8, 2018)

8ball said:


> Well, you're Scottish - there has been a lot of success in reducing knife crime in Scotland.
> Some of the things done there may work, but some of the differences compared with the situation in London might mean some differences in approach.
> 
> And like has been said, even if done right it's going to take a long time.



We do still have knife crime, but only a fraction of that in London, thankfully.


----------



## ElizabethofYork (Nov 8, 2018)

8ball said:


> Well, you're Scottish - there has been a lot of success in reducing knife crime in Scotland.
> Some of the things done there may work, but some of the differences compared with the situation in London might mean some differences in approach.
> 
> And like has been said, even if done right it's going to take a long time.



Really interesting about the approach taken in Scotland.  This is from The Guardian:

_"The Scottish approach was quite conventional at first. “The police played a central role in the beginning,” explains Christine Goodall, who along with two other surgeons founded Medics Against Violence in 2008, a campaign group which works with health professionals, law enforcement, social services and other bodies to thwart violent behaviour. “They campaigned really hard to get the legislation around knife crime changed so people would be more likely to get a mandatory sentence. There was also, at the outset, a lot of stop and search.”

The average sentence for carrying a knife in Scotland has tripled, from four months in 2005-06 to an average of 13 months in 2014-15.

The issues, says Goodall, were concentrated in certain areas, particularly around Glasgow. Using intelligence from police operations, the VRU identified those people most likely to offend and asked them to voluntarily attend the sheriff’s court. “They didn’t have to come but they were encouraged to by community police, teachers and social workers and a lot of them did come,” says Goodall.

“The police had mapped all the gangs and when people got there they saw their own pictures up in the court. The session started off with a warning: ‘We know who you are and if you carry on with this lifestyle we’re going to come down on you really hard. We’re going to arrest you and we’ll arrest the rest of the gang. You will be going to prison if this carries on.’”

But at that point the intervention at the court took a more creative and holistic approach.

“We spoke about the injuries we see as a result of the violence and had a mum talk about losing her son. That really hit home,” explains Goodall. Finally, they were offered a way out. “There was help with housing, relocation, employment and training. They were given a number to call if they wanted to take the offer up. Huge numbers of them did so, were put into the programme, and are no longer in the gang lifestyle.”

The decision to treat knife crime as a public health issue – rather than simply a police matter – appears to have underpinned both the direction and support."_


----------



## eatmorecheese (Nov 8, 2018)

ElizabethofYork said:


> Really interesting about the approach taken in Scotland.  This is from The Guardian:
> 
> _"The Scottish approach was quite conventional at first. “The police played a central role in the beginning,” explains Christine Goodall, who along with two other surgeons founded Medics Against Violence in 2008, a campaign group which works with health professionals, law enforcement, social services and other bodies to thwart violent behaviour. “They campaigned really hard to get the legislation around knife crime changed so people would be more likely to get a mandatory sentence. There was also, at the outset, a lot of stop and search.”
> 
> ...


Absolutely the right approach. Intensive, a lot of ups and downs, but a clear message underpinning everything that their lives and future have value.


----------



## ElizabethofYork (Nov 8, 2018)

So coming down hard on knife crime, with lots of stop and search and heavy penalties, coupled with practical support with housing, employment, etc. seems to have worked.  Why can't we have something similar in London?


----------



## 8ball (Nov 8, 2018)

ElizabethofYork said:


> So coming down hard on knife crime, with lots of stop and search and heavy penalties, coupled with practical support with housing, employment, etc. seems to have worked.  Why can't we have something similar in London?



In that article, some of the obstacles to doing it in *quite* the same way are outlined.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Nov 8, 2018)

ElizabethofYork said:


> So coming down hard on knife crime, with lots of stop and search and heavy penalties, coupled with practical support with housing, employment, etc. seems to have worked.  Why can't we have something similar in London?



London is about 15 times the size of Glasgow. The cost of such programs is quite high, but of course, if they save one person from getting their guts spilled onto the pavement, then the saving from that is huge.

A serious knife injury can easily top £50k to treat. ICU is about £2k a day on its own.


----------



## 8ball (Nov 8, 2018)

Sasaferrato said:


> ICU is about £2k a day on its own.



£6k for three of the shittiest days of my life.

<fires up TripAdvisor...>


----------



## ska invita (Nov 8, 2018)

ElizabethofYork said:


> Really interesting about the approach taken in Scotland.  This is from The Guardian:
> 
> _"The Scottish approach was quite conventional at first. “The police played a central role in the beginning,” explains Christine Goodall, who along with two other surgeons founded Medics Against Violence in 2008, a campaign group which works with health professionals, law enforcement, social services and other bodies to thwart violent behaviour. “They campaigned really hard to get the legislation around knife crime changed so people would be more likely to get a mandatory sentence. There was also, at the outset, a lot of stop and search.”
> 
> ...


what we get in London is the stop and search without this bit
_“There was help with housing, relocation, employment and training. They were given a number to call if they wanted to take the offer up. Huge numbers of them did so, were put into the programme, and are no longer in the gang lifestyle.”_
and without it, the stick bit is counterproductive


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 8, 2018)

ska invita said:


> what we get in London is the stop and search without this bit
> _“There was help with housing, relocation, employment and training. They were given a number to call if they wanted to take the offer up. Huge numbers of them did so, were put into the programme, and are no longer in the gang lifestyle.”_
> and without it, the stick bit is counterproductive


And tbh I would suspect that with this bit but without the stick, there would still have been similar results. Tougher sentencing, etc, does well to swell prisons, but I'm not sure how effective it is at anything else, and it risks entrenching the problem rather than solving it.

In New York, violent crime has continued to fall since courts ruled its aggressive stop and search policy unconstitutional. Like London, its measures had appalling racial bias. And like London, I suspect it just made the problem even worse. It just identifies the police as the enemy for whole sections of society, criminal or not.



> New York City cops stopped and frisked nearly 700,000 people, mostly young black and Latino men, in 2011. These numbers dropped to less than 46,000 in 2014, after a federal court ruled the NYPD’s stop-and-frisk procedures unconstitutional. In 2016, NYPD officers stopped roughly 12,400 people.
> 
> “Like many conservatives, I had grave concerns about curtailing the New York City police department’s controversial tactic of stopping and frisking potential suspects for weapons,” writes Kyle Smith, a critic of Mayor Bill de Blasio, in a National Review article, “We Were Wrong About Stop and Frisk.” “Crime is literally off the charts – the low end of the charts. To compare today’s crime rate to even that of ten years ago is to observe a breathtaking decline.”



Why New York crime has plunged to record lows


----------



## 8ball (Nov 8, 2018)

ska invita said:


> what we get in London is the stop and search without this bit
> _“There was help with housing, relocation, employment and training. They were given a number to call if they wanted to take the offer up. Huge numbers of them did so, were put into the programme, and are no longer in the gang lifestyle.”_
> and without it, the stick bit is counterproductive



Elements of the "stick" bit are also more difficult; relatively speaking, in Scotland there was a lot less distrust of the police in minority communities, which meant the initial increases in stop-and-search had more consent.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 8, 2018)

tbh any measure anywhere that leads a young black man to be treated as a criminal suspect by the police because he is a young black man is always going to just make everything worse. In itself it is a measure that rules out even the possibility of building trust.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 8, 2018)

.


----------



## A380 (Nov 8, 2018)

ska invita said:


> what we get in London is the stop and search without this bit
> _“There was help with housing, relocation, employment and training. They were given a number to call if they wanted to take the offer up. Huge numbers of them did so, were put into the programme, and are no longer in the gang lifestyle.”_
> and without it, the stick bit is counterproductive


Police enforcement, operations  and prosecutions are only ever a sticking plaster ( really no pun intended) . Old bill actions can buy a temporary respite or move a problem from somewhere to somewhere else. Any sane system would use the police to create a space that other agencies and communities could then work in to address the more systematic issues.



Spoiler: Spolier Alert



This is almost never what happens.


----------



## Manter (Nov 8, 2018)

8ball said:


> You might be subconsciously remembering something.
> 
> The Knife Angel – A Sculpture Made of 100,000 Knives Confiscated by the Police


That is v near where my parents live. It is staggering in real life- and the size of some of the knives too. They want to exhibit it in London on the 4th plinth but have been turned down repeatedly.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 8, 2018)

A380 said:


> Police enforcement, operations  and prosecutions are only ever a sticking plaster ( really no pun intended) . Old bill actions can buy a temporary respite or move a problem from somewhere to somewhere else. Any sane system would use the police to create a space that other agencies and communities could then work in to address the more systematic issues.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



We know this but presently we have a Govt that has cut services to the bone. I’d argue for a change of system than Govt (obvs) but in the meantime what can be done with what we’ve got?
Just as social resources are moved away from working class communities so are policing ones. Surely it isn’t such an anti-radical move to demand that the police start doing what we pay them to do? This wouldn’t happen in the leafy avenues of Chelsea or Kensington so why is it acceptable anywhere else?


----------



## A380 (Nov 8, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> We know this but presently we have a Govt that has cut services to the bone. I’d argue for a change of system than Govt (obvs) but in the meantime what can be done with what we’ve got?
> Just as social resources are moved away from working class communities so are policing ones. Surely it isn’t such an anti-radical move to demand that the police start doing what we pay them to do? This wouldn’t happen in the leafy avenues of Chelsea or Kensington so why is it acceptable anywhere else?


The poor are massively over policed as it is. The reason* you don’t get multiple stabbings there  isn’t that the TSG are out doing section 60 operations on the leafy avenues of Kensington and Chelsea. 

* Obvs there are multiple reasons, but my train’s getting in.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 8, 2018)

Are you living on a different planet?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 8, 2018)

littlebabyjesus said:


> It just identifies the police as the enemy for whole sections of society, criminal or not.



Much better that communities are being shit on from within than the police to be seen as the enemy.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 8, 2018)

Maybe the police could work WITH those communities in getting this shit sorted? It’s like there’s a decision between no policing or racial profiling stop and search with no sensible options in between.


----------



## stuff_it (Nov 8, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Maybe the police could work WITH those communities in getting this shit sorted? It’s like there’s a decision between no policing or racial profiling stop and search with no sensible options in between.


Happy well fed teenagers who have a wealth of excellent life opportunities ahead of them don't need anyone working with the police to stop them getting stabby.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 8, 2018)

As I posted on another thread, it is also important not to blow this out of proportion. London isn't in some kind of recently started meltdown. Yes there are problems, but they won't and can't be solved overnight, and there are dangers to knee-jerk reactions, especially any involving giving the Met new powers or resources. Let's not forget that the Met are also part of the problem in London. Have been for a long time.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 8, 2018)

stuff_it said:


> Happy well fed teenagers who have a wealth of excellent life opportunities ahead of them don't need anyone working with the police to stop them getting stabby.



I agree with this, my politics are geared towards it, but there’s nothing that can be done towards that under the present political regime. All we can do is pressurise the system into changing whilst pressurising those paid to protect us into doing what they’re paid to do.
Community action would be better still but a lot of people are simply too frightened to take these lumpen parasites on.


----------



## MrSki (Nov 8, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Just as social resources are moved away from working class communities so are policing ones. Surely it isn’t such an anti-radical move to demand that the police start doing what we pay them to do? This wouldn’t happen in the leafy avenues of Chelsea or Kensington so why is it acceptable anywhere else?


Where are these working class communities that you speak of? Which part of London is a wc community? It is all a bit mixed up these days. Are you referring to council estates? If so why not just say so? In the mid/late 80s I lived on the Wellington Estate in Bethnal Green & the Police would only ever attend in a riot van. That was 30 years ago.
There are not many avenues in Chelsea or Kensington so I don't really get your point. 
What is your obsession with working class come from? Should not everyone be treated equally both in the eye of the law & how they are policed?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 8, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I agree with this, my politics are geared towards it, but there’s nothing that can be done towards that under the present political regime. All we can do is pressurise the system into changing whilst pressurising those paid to protect us into doing what they’re paid to do.
> Community action would be better still but a lot of people are simply too frightened to take these lumpen parasites on.


And here I'm afraid I'm rather pessimistic. As society changes to become even more unequal and as social mobility continues to decline, we are likely to see more violent crime, not less. Calling for tougher policing in isolation is worse than pointless. Calling people lumpen parasites doesn't help much either. Dehumanising 'gang members' doesn't help.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 8, 2018)

MrSki said:


> Where are these working class communities that you speak of? Which part of London is a wc community? It is all a bit mixed up these days. Are you referring to council estates? If so why not just say so? In the mid/late 80s I lived on the Wellington Estate in Bethnal Green & the Police would only ever attend in a riot van. That was 30 years ago.
> There are not many avenues in Chelsea or Kensington so I don't really get your point.
> What is your obsession with working class come from? Should not everyone be treated equally both in the eye of the law & how they are policed?



The analysis being that this type of offending is simply managed by keeping it in less desirable areas rather than tackled. The analysis runs deeper but I can’t be arsed going into it with people who can’t even recognise that simple point and agree on it.


----------



## Humberto (Nov 8, 2018)

The huge inequality in London has to be poisoning things severely. I'm echoing others but it bears repeating.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 8, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> The analysis being that this type of offending is simply managed by keeping it in less desirable areas rather than tackled. The analysis runs deeper but I can’t be arsed going into it with people who can’t even recognise that simple point and agree on it.


You post for the benefit of the whole thread, not just single posters. I'd be interested to see this analysis. Can you give some specific examples? Thing is, where this is true, direct police intervention becomes even less viable an option, even if that's what you want.

Do you accept the point about London being very mixed up? Even where you have a particularly notorious estate, it is very often literally just across the street from somewhere very different.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 8, 2018)

littlebabyjesus said:


> You post for the benefit of the whole thread, not just single posters. I'd be interested to see this analysis. Can you give some specific examples? Thing is, where this is true, direct police intervention becomes even less viable an option, even if that's what you want.



There’s plenty of stuff written about the CIA deliberately introducing crack to black communities to suppress them organising against their conditions. This stuff simply exists as it benefits capital that it does. So surely the way out is to apply pressure to those involved along with pressure to those taking taxes as the service aimed to protect?
I’m not sure at all what your answer is. More money? Well yeah.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 8, 2018)

The police don't protect people living in the worst estates, though. Or even people living in ok estates. They never have. That seems a rather naive thought, tbh.

My answer as I said is a rather pessimistic one probably in your eyes, namely that there is no answer if you don't change society. And you tackle crime more effectively by opening a local youth centre than you do by sending out more coppers onto the streets. Currently youth centres are closing all around the city. Council grants are being slashed. That's happening now - 'stop doing that' would be the first thing I'd say to the authorities if they were to ask me about youth crime.


----------



## MrSki (Nov 8, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> The analysis being that this type of offending is simply managed by keeping it in less desirable areas rather than tackled. The analysis runs deeper but I can’t be arsed going into it with people who can’t even recognise that simple point and agree on it.


Or the use of the stupid fucking word Lumpen? 
When I lived in Loughborough Road in Brixton from 1996 till 2012 it was a working class/unworking area. Now if I return it has £500K flats intermingled. It is now an area that is mixed with the poor & the rich. When I lived there gun crime was a problem but that seems to have been overtaken with kids & knives. When guns were a problem there were less fights in the pub but for the wrong reasons. Is this a WC community or has it been tainted by wealth? 

PS Please stop using the word " Lumpen" it does you no favours.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 8, 2018)

littlebabyjesus said:


> The police don't protect people living in the worst estates, though. Or even people living in ok estates. They never have. That seems a rather naive thought, tbh.
> 
> My answer as I said is a rather pessimistic one probably in your eyes, namely that there is no answer if you don't change society.



I said the same thing several posts ago and got a demand to define what I meant (not from you) and now you apparently agree with me.
Ok so your answer is that there isn’t an answer. I’ve given a solution but you simply don’t like it.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 8, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I said the same thing several posts ago and got a demand to define what I meant (not from you) and now you apparently agree with me.
> Ok so your answer is that there isn’t an answer. I’ve given a solution but you simply don’t like it.


No, I think there is an answer, just not your one.  As I said in my edit (sorry, I edited to add), 'stop closing youth clubs' would be first thing on my list of things to do.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 8, 2018)

MrSki said:


> PS Please stop using the word " Lumpen" it does you no favours.



I most certainly do have a word for parasitical cunts who make the lives of working class people a misery by dealing drugs to their kids and/or murdering them.
I couldn’t give a fuck what you think tbh.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 8, 2018)

littlebabyjesus said:


> No, I think there is an answer, just not your one.  As I said in my edit (sorry, I edited to add), 'stop closing youth clubs' would be first thing on my list of things to do.



I’d say job prospects more important than youth clubs, you sound like Boris Johnson.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 8, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I’d say job prospects more important than youth clubs, you sound like Boris Johnson.


Of course. But you can stop closing youth clubs tomorrow. I said 'first thing' on my list, not only thing. And youth services budgets have been slashed right across London. And I mean slashed - the one I know about is Chiswick, which has been cut from £800k a year to £200k. Centres are closing because of it. This can be stopped and reversed right now - first thing tomorrow morning, this could be stopped.

Nothing like Boris Johnson, btw. He did nothing to increase funding for youth services.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 8, 2018)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Of course. But you can stop closing youth clubs tomorrow. I said 'first thing' on my list, not only thing. And youth services budgets have been slashed right across London. And I mean slashed - the one I know about is Chiswick, which has been cut from £800k a year to £200k. Centres are closing because of it. This can be stopped and reversed right now - first thing tomorrow morning, this could be stopped.



This shit was happening ten years ago too. And longer.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 8, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> This shit was happening ten years ago too. And longer.


It is accelerating. This is the real meaning of 'austerity'. But yes, these kinds of neglect have long been happening.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 8, 2018)

littlebabyjesus said:


> It is accelerating. This is the real meaning of 'austerity'. But yes, these kinds of neglect have long been happening.



I agree it’s a systemic issue. But let’s not deny agency.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 8, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I agree it’s a systemic issue. But let’s not deny agency.


I'm not denying agency. Someone stabs someone, I want them to be caught and locked up. I would also not want to give up on them as wronguns for good, mind, but caught and locked up would have to be the first step. But that is of course after the fact. We're discussing prevention here, no? And prevention involves systemic issues.


----------



## MrSki (Nov 8, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I most certainly do have a word for parasitical cunts who make the lives of working class people a misery by dealing drugs to their kids and/or murdering them.
> I couldn’t give a fuck what you think tbh.


Well I am surprised.  
I think you will find that it is working class people selling drugs to other working class people & murdering them that is the problem. Are the stabbers all posh boys? No. Admit it is working class children stabbing other working class children that is the current problem. Or maybe it is people stabbing people regardless of which class they might think they are from.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Nov 8, 2018)

ElizabethofYork said:


> So coming down hard on knife crime, with lots of stop and search and heavy penalties, coupled with practical support with housing, employment, etc. seems to have worked.  Why can't we have something similar in London?



Because housing is for cunts to make money out of, not for people to live in.


----------



## A380 (Nov 8, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Are you living on a different planet?


To you? I imagine so yes.


----------



## Humberto (Nov 8, 2018)

I suppose children stabbing eachother is a price worth paying for some. They may not be deliberate about it but I still believe its true. So you live in what are basically poor quality housing, which are replaced with housing for super rich property speculators and landlords. Its always the worst off isn't it? I mean they are not 'really' important or actual citizens. Tolerated. Inequality is poisonous. Its obscene in London.  The richest, living next to the poorest.

London is an old city. Nowadays its a playground for the rich. Worthlessness, unemployment, and yes extreme violence are the dark side of this 'happy scheme'. Where is the hope or fairness? I'm not scared for myself, I'm scared for them. They DO try - fucking hard - yet they are always stamped down. The ills of society are most keenly felt by the poorest and least welcome. Then what, they are vilified and targeted for daring to exist?

Give everyone a future, a wage, a voice, a stake and we might get somewhere. Because, quite simply the opposite is becoming the reality for more and more working class youth. If youth services (one spec in a larger picture) are slashed, its not a police matter, its a political matter. A matter of life and death, of justice, as we can see. The article linked to in the opening post is very perceptive, read that and tell me we need tougher policing.

Don't give in to the bourgeois 'lock em up',' be more decent', false arguments. That's not the problem. One problem is leaving children a hopeless task to survive whilst others make millions out of nothing. The government is not on their side. In other words; why aren't these kids, their families, their communities wholly in focus and treated as an emergency task, to be put right? Because of racism? Certainly. No doubt in my mind. But also very significant is the system of massive inequality, which in London is severe and saddening.


----------



## Old Spark (Nov 9, 2018)

Much of this violence in London is gang and drug related .It's also black on black.

For some black families dad legs it leaving mum to bring up the kids on her own.Does this fuel  ultra masculine attitudes where slights are exaggerated and lead to murder.

The gang becomes the family and drugs equals a very good income.Drill videos wind both sides up.

Glasgow has made progress by forcing the gangs to talk to each other and former gang members to mentor.


----------



## stuff_it (Nov 9, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> ... but a lot of people are simply too frightened to take these lumpen parasites on.



Maybe if they didn't have armed guards or a big gate things would be different...


----------



## Celyn (Nov 9, 2018)

Sasaferrato said:


> ...
> 
> A serious knife injury can easily top £50k to treat. ICU is about £2k a day on its own.



Eek! Had no idea it was so very much.


----------



## Celyn (Nov 9, 2018)

stuff_it said:


> Happy well fed teenagers who have a wealth of excellent life opportunities ahead of them don't need anyone working with the police to stop them getting stabby.


Yes, agreed. However, lots of teenagers, in fact the majority of teenagers, don't go around attacking other people, and that includes teenagers who do don't have "a wealth of excellent life opportunities" .


----------



## Celyn (Nov 9, 2018)

stuff_it said:


> Maybe if they didn't have armed guards or a big gate things would be different...
> 
> View attachment 152068


Yes, that is certainly a sign of a government that thinks the people  trust them.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 9, 2018)

MrSki said:


> Well I am surprised.
> I think you will find that it is working class people selling drugs to other working class people & murdering them that is the problem. Are the stabbers all posh boys? No. Admit it is working class children stabbing other working class children that is the current problem. Or maybe it is people stabbing people regardless of which class they might think they are from.



Perhaps you should learn what the word means before demanding I stop using it.


----------



## bellaozzydog (Nov 9, 2018)

Its OK Sajid has got this

*Police furious after Sajid Javid tells them to ‘step up response’ to knife attacks in capital*

*London police furious after Sajid Javid tells them to ‘step up response’ to knife attacks in capital*


----------



## OzT (Nov 9, 2018)

I would have thought people growing up in the 50s, 60s and 70s had heapsa slum estates too to live in, in fact I would have thought the less well off in those days had less than they do now, in material pocessions. Food quality/quantity would have been poor, home entertainments wouldn't have been flat screen tellys or steroes, clothings usually hand me downs, and schools probably cared less then in those days. I would have thought life was much harder, and duller then too, also without prospects, and deffo without mobile phones and designer trainers. And yes drugs was available in those days, maybe not fashionable but enough hard and soft drugs were available. A lot of youths too in those days were also disenfranchised. 

But teenagers then didn't go round stabbing each other, joining in gangs or initmdating the public. Of course there was trouble then, there is in every generation, just not the scale it seems to be now. 

I have no solution, and though I have some idea why culture has now come to this, in some areas, I do not think a lack of public money, or even policing, is the main reason for the knife deaths.

But I do think it will get better, or maybe just hope it will. New role models for the kids will start springing out, and lead to a better life for all, specially to lead them away from a rather dead end life choice of gangs and knives.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 9, 2018)

OzT said:


> I would have thought people growing up in the 50s, 60s and 70s had heapsa slum estates too to live in, in fact I would have thought the less well off in those days had less than they do now, in material pocessions. Food quality/quantity would have been poor, home entertainments wouldn't have been flat screen tellys or steroes, clothings usually hand me downs, and schools probably cared less then in those days. I would have thought life was much harder, and duller then too, also without prospects, and deffo without mobile phones and designer trainers. And yes drugs was available in those days, maybe not fashionable but enough hard and soft drugs were available. A lot of youths too in those days were also disenfranchised.
> 
> But teenagers then didn't go round stabbing each other, joining in gangs or initmdating the public. Of course there was trouble then, there is in every generation, just not the scale it seems to be now.
> 
> ...


There speaks someone who hasn't read richard allen or the newspapers of the time. No gangs in the auld days? No mods or rockers or peaky blinders? No knife crime? Soz your post has it all wrong.


----------



## OzT (Nov 9, 2018)

No, I didn't say there were no gangs in those days. Just not at prevelant than now. I get the feeling, maybe wrongly, that it is almost common place for knifings now a days. A lad that used to hang round my station here, 15 years old, was a bit mouthy but no more than you'd expect from any lad, was killed a couple of weeks ago by some other lads from down the road. I don't think that woudl have happened back then. Maybe a good thumping, but the almost careless use of weapons seems common now, as to the earlier times I was mentioning.


----------



## MrSki (Nov 9, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Perhaps you should learn what the word means before demanding I stop using it.


I am not demanding that you stop using it. 

It is your choice but to me it just reinforces your superiority complex. 

I am sure if you went round talking to these stabby teenagers that the problem would be solved. 

What working class community do you actually live in?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 9, 2018)

Do you want my mother’s maiden name too?


----------



## OzT (Nov 9, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Do you want my mother’s maiden name too?



I often get prople handing over their cards to me when they get a ticket from me, I ask them then for the 4 numbers and their mother's maiden name . . . . . luckily it usually ends up with a laugh


----------



## MrSki (Nov 9, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Do you want my mother’s maiden name too?


No. I would like you to explain why you think you are better than the lumpen who you keep going on about. What makes you special?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 9, 2018)

MrSki said:


> No. I would like you to explain why you think you are better than the lumpen who you keep going on about. What makes you special?



I’m not a parasite on the community by selling drugs to my neighbours kids or stabbing them to death. In fact no different than most decent folk, nothing ‘special’ about it.


----------



## MrSki (Nov 9, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I’m not a parasite on the community by selling drugs to my neighbours kids or stabbing them to death. In fact no different than most decent folk, nothing ‘special’ about it.


So you are no different from your "lumpen" neighbours?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 9, 2018)

MrSki said:


> So you are no different from your "lumpen" neighbours?



I’m not sure if you’re simply not reading my posts or are being deliberately obtuse.


----------



## MrSki (Nov 9, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I’m not sure if you’re simply not reading my posts or are being deliberately obtuse.


I am asking a simple question. What makes you better than your lumpen neighbours?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 9, 2018)

MrSki said:


> I am asking a simple question. What makes you better than your lumpen neighbours?



I answered in post #192. I don’t believe I’ve suggested my neighbours are lumpen. I’ve said dealers are.


----------



## ElizabethofYork (Nov 9, 2018)

Has "working class" become a euphemism for "black"?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 9, 2018)

ElizabethofYork said:


> Has "working class" become a euphemism for "black"?



No, some people around here usually use it as a euphemism for 'White'.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 9, 2018)

Well I don’t.


----------



## Celyn (Nov 9, 2018)

ElizabethofYork said:


> Has "working class" become a euphemism for "black"?


 I am confused about that too.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 9, 2018)

Yeah, because liberals never see minorities in terms of class so it causes a brain spasm when anyone talks about them in those terms.


----------



## Celyn (Nov 9, 2018)

Rutita1 said:


> No, some people around here usually use it as a euphemism for 'White'.


 Really?   . Oh wrong. But a useful way to split people.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Nov 9, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I’m not a parasite on the community by selling drugs to my neighbours kids or stabbing them to death. In fact no different than most decent folk, nothing ‘special’ about it.



Now I understand the constant ire about 'liberals'. It's because you're a fucking 1950's tory.


----------



## Celyn (Nov 9, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Yeah, because liberals never see minorities in terms of class so it causes a brain spasm when anyone talks about them in those terms.



Fine. Whatever it pleases you to say.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 9, 2018)

SpookyFrank said:


> Now I understand the constant ire about 'liberals'. It's because you're a fucking 1950's tory.



For real? The only people this shit affects are ‘fucking 1950s tories’? Perhaps everyone should suck it up because Spooky Frank that doesn’t live there has spoken.


----------



## ska invita (Nov 9, 2018)

OzT


Pickman's model said:


> There speaks someone who hasn't read richard allen or the newspapers of the time. No gangs in the auld days? No mods or rockers or peaky blinders? No knife crime? Soz your post has it all wrong.


definitely. I watched a thing about kids street games of 30s-50s or so. All kids played out doors all the time until the rise of the car in the 60s, and there was full on turf war. Kids would have a patch of about 6-8 streets lets say, and stray over that border and youd get a beating.  And thats not gang stuff, thats everyone basically.

Then theres gangs:

---
worth reading this long post London Street Gangs Blog: London Gangs (Mobs) & Firms Before the 1950s
extract:
*London Gangs (Mobs) & Firms Before the 1950s*

The 1700's to 1940

In the 1700's and 1800's London was plagued with crime and gangs. During this time it would have been considered the gang capital of the world. As the city grew and expanded outwards the wealthier residents moved into the suburbs leaving only the most deprived in the central areas to fend for themselves. Prostitution, robbery, pick-pocketing and protection rackteering were amongst the most common crimes. Children as young as 10 could face capital punishment for crimes as petty as thievery. There were a mix of gangs, usually known as mobs, who claimed territory - usually a stretch of street - and often took their name from their territory (i.e. Elephant & Castle Boys). There were also a number of crime families who operated in districts surrounding what is today known as the 'City of London'.

In the East End alone it was estimated that a third of the population lived below the poverty line and 50% of children born their died before the age of 5. Most of the gangs and families listed below were active between the late 1800's and up to 1940. By 1937 the police and government identified what were London's most gang infested districts, they were Hackney & Hoxton, the East End (referring to Tower Hamlets & Newham), north London (Islington, Camden & Tottenham), north east London (referring to Stratford, Leytonstone, Leyton) and the West End which was being carved up by organised firms from across the city.

Up to as many as 70 gangs battled on London streets from the 1900's onwards. Gun battles, stabbings, teen on teen killings, colours and gang identities, sub-cliques, rivalries and alliances were all common features of the old Gangs of London. The social disorganisation theory holds true, with many of the affected areas still suffering from gangs today (some even have the same names).

The book "Gangs of London" by Brian McDonald chronicles the gang histoies (click here to buy book or see more details). Below are excerpts from the chapter "Street Gangs" (NB: below is copyright of Brian McDonald 2010; this piece may have to be removed at short notice if requested by the author whose contact details we could not obtain).

Brian McDonald; "Street Gangs" (excerpts from the Gangs of London, 2010, p.59-72)

----

As posted up thread government stats show knife killings are a fair bit down on on early 2000 and mid 1990s, and not much up from 1980s


----------



## SpookyFrank (Nov 9, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> For real? The only people this shit affects are ‘fucking 1950s tories’? Perhaps everyone should suck it up because Spooky Frank that doesn’t live there has spoken.



Violence among young people is not just a problem in London. And it certainly isn't a problem of people simply failing to live up to the standard of decency set by the likes of you. The opposite really, it's a problem that comes from large chunks of society being written off as inherently bad by those who don't wish to feel responsible for the ills of a society they're part of.

There are many ways to be a parasite. Many ways to be a parasite and still be a 'decent person' so long as you dress right, talk right, and make enough money doing it.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 9, 2018)

SpookyFrank said:


> Violence among young people is not just a problem in London. And it certainly isn't a problem of people simply failing to live up to the standard of decency set by the likes of you. The opposite really, it's a problem that comes from large chunks of society being written off as inherently bad by those who don't wish to feel responsible for the ills of a society they're part of.
> 
> There are many ways to be a parasite. Many ways to be a parasite and still be a 'decent person' so long as you dress right, talk right, and make enough money doing it.



Nobody here has a problem condemning wealthy parasites, it just becomes an issue when  it’s those amongst us in our own communities. It’s fucking bizarre tbh.


----------



## Edie (Nov 9, 2018)

I think we should expect more from our police even if stop and search isn’t a big part of it. Young men (and some young women) are being stabbed at an appalling, frankly barely believable rate, in London. It should be one of the polices absolute priorities to deal with- what could be more important?!

If I was a parent in London I’d be wanting the police to announcing a very clear well researched strategy to deal with it, and then do it. If that’s taking elements of the Glasgow plan (which sounds excellent) then crack on. Disrupt the gangs, move problem individuals/families, go into schools, more coppers on the streets.

Surely this is just a whatever it takes situation? Kids are being stabbed to death on a weekly or even daily basis, an entire generation of young men can’t feel safe in their own communities, are growing up with their brothers/mates/classmates being stabbed as just something that happens?! They deserve better, we really must be demanding better for those young men.


----------



## 8ball (Nov 9, 2018)

Edie said:


> Surely this is just a whatever it takes situation?



In that case the solution is very simple - incarcerate all men between the ages of 15 and 34.


----------



## ska invita (Nov 9, 2018)

Edie said:


> Disrupt the gangs, move problem individuals/families, go into schools, more coppers on the streets.


a couple of thoughts about moving families;

-this is already happening as a 'solution' to social problems via urban councils knocking down social housing - brushing the problems away is a big motivating factor in those policies
-if young people, especially involved in gangs, get moved into other troubled urban areas - say from Walworth to Thamesmead, they and their families then experience a ton of shit along the outsiders/postcode wars line from local crews. <<<a big issue that, which social services don't seem to give a shit about.
-where people get moved to are often the poorest areas with the least resources, creating new problems there. Robbing Peter to pay Paul type thing.

not sure what you had in mind about going into schools, police in corridors?  metal detectors at the door? or talks from people affected/police? Police in schools is already increasingly happening and the US shows us where this ends up. Prison schools.

Bobbies on the Beat isnt going to do much.

Not trying to pour cold water, just thougths.


----------



## Edie (Nov 9, 2018)

Yeah I can see moving families may have issues. But it seems to be part of what worked in Glasgow? 

I’m not against police in schools cos the officer in my sons school is actually brilliant. He’s been a massive help to me with my sons and with trouble related to some of the kids there. The kids generally like him, and he’s a stopper between them and the police down the station as he has a lot of discretion.

And yes. Police on the streets. 

What are your thoughts/suggestions ska?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 9, 2018)

Police in schools? What a sorry state of affairs to reach. In London there is a huge problem there in that the police in the schools will be from the Met. The Met are part of the problem here.

What exactly does more police on the streets do? Serious question. I think it's easy to overestimate the idea that the police can prevent crime. They can catch people who commit crimes, but their capacity for direct prevention is limited, and I think should be limited. And this will vary from person to person I guess, and region to region, but seeing coppers does not make me feel safer. Quite the opposite.

I don't think it can be stressed too much that a rise in violence is a direct consequence of 'austerity'. An inevitable consequence really. That's nothing to do with policing. It's to do with creating a sick society.


----------



## ska invita (Nov 9, 2018)

Edie said:


> What are your thoughts/suggestions ska?


Glasgow;
_"There was help with housing, relocation, employment and training. They were given a number to call if they wanted to take the offer up. Huge numbers of them did so, were put into the programme, and are no longer in the gang lifestyle.”
_
Having a government who cares about ordinary people, who wants to make society more equal. Tory governments have a duty to create inequality. That's not bluster, that's their ideological world view. Stratification is their purpose.

The solution is killing Austerity and investing in people.

Its amazing that after the shock of 2011 riots not only did nothing change but the cuts to youth services just went on deeper and deeper.

Does everyone know what Connexions centres were? They had them in London, not sure if they were cross country. They were like job centres for young people, helping with CVs , training and job placements. I was genuinely shocked that the Tories shut them. I thought they want everyone to get on a bike and get a job? They were proven to work.

The Ema was another good policy that blatantly worked and was money well spent.


----------



## andysays (Nov 9, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Maybe the police could work WITH those communities in getting this shit sorted? It’s like there’s a decision between no policing or racial profiling stop and search with no sensible options in between.


Didn't you used to identify as an anarchist?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 9, 2018)

andysays said:


> Didn't you used to identify as an anarchist?



I don’t know any anarchists who never phone the police if they’re victims of crime. 
Ideally I’d argue for organised community action, but where that doesn’t happen (in most cases) then why not hold the authorities to account?


----------



## andysays (Nov 9, 2018)




----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 9, 2018)

I favour bottom up rather than top down politics. I’m not some punk throwback with a dog on a string slumming it in some squat.


----------



## andysays (Nov 9, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I favour bottom up rather than top down politics. I’m not some punk throwback with a dog on a string slumming it in some squat.



But you're quite happy to call for more top down action from the authorities, as long as it's only people who you've decided are 'other' who are affected by it...


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 9, 2018)

andysays said:


> But you're quite happy to call for more top down action from the authorities, as long as it's only people who you've decided are 'other' who are affected by it...



Why shouldn’t the police make the lives of the working class less miserable? They’re paid from our taxes. You appear to be on the side of those causing the misery because of political purism.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 9, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I don’t know any anarchists who never phone the police if they’re victims of crime.


we've been through this before. we all know the police won't do anything about many crimes, for example phone theft. but people need a crime number for things, which is why many people will call the police - not expecting action but as it is a step on the way to claiming insurance etc. it's something imposed by companies, not something people do when they've lost a phone expecting the cops to drop everything and get on the case.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 9, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Why shouldn’t the police make the lives of the working class less miserable? They’re paid from our taxes. You appear to be on the side of those causing the misery because of political purism.


i don't think you've really grasped the role of the police in society


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 9, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> i don't think you've really grasped the role of the police in society



I have. The difference between us is that you think political pressure shouldn’t be applied to them because anarchism. I disagree.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 9, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I have. The difference between us is that you think political pressure shouldn’t be applied to them because anarchism. I disagree.


that's an invention of your own imagination.

the difference between us is i recognise that political pressure is applied to them, from people with far more power than you or i.

while there is pressure on the police, they will - temporarily - act on it. but the issue here is that there is not a policing solution to the matter at hand.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 9, 2018)

saying there's a policing solution to knife crime is like saying there's a policing solution to drugs.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 9, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> that's an invention of your own imagination.
> 
> the difference between us is i recognise that political pressure is applied to them, from people with far more power than you or i.
> 
> while there is pressure on the police, they will - temporarily - act on it. but the issue here is that there is not a policing solution to the matter at hand.



Most of the wc aren’t anti-police in the way anarchists are. To nail your colours to the mast of absolutely not involving the police whilst trying to engage those communities - I don’t think it’s a winner to any cause, is it?


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 9, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Most of the wc aren’t anti-police in the way anarchists are. To nail your colours to the mast of absolutely not involving the police whilst trying to engage those communities - I don’t think it’s a winner to any cause, is it?


perhaps you could point me to where i have said or suggested that, before you come out with some other imaginary confection of what i think


----------



## SpookyFrank (Nov 9, 2018)

ska invita said:


> .
> 
> Does everyone know what Connexions centres were? They had them in London, not sure if they were cross country. They were like job centres for young people, helping with CVs , training and job placements. I was genuinely shocked that the Tories shut them. I thought they want everyone to get on a bike and get a job? They were proven to work.



Yep, they had them nationwide. 

Don't go looking for the sense in tory policies because there is none.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Nov 9, 2018)

8ball said:


> In that case the solution is very simple - incarcerate all men between the ages of 15 and 34.



Can we make it 32? Asking for a friend...


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 9, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> perhaps you could point me to where i have said or suggested that, before you come out with some other imaginary confection of what i think



You’ve just spent the last few posts setting out that stall.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 9, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> You’ve just spent the last few posts setting out that stall.


I've said in two of them you're making things up. And again you're making things up. I would be very happy to have police involvement at a broad-based meeting, there is no better way to demonstrate their utter uselessness. Do you really think this will be a priority for them, knife crime? They'll use it as a counter in the game of playing politics with people's lives. And they'll be onto something else when it suits their agenda. I say again, there is no policing solution to knife crime. Having the police involved will only impress the credulous. The police cannot do anything meaningful about the complex social problems, many of them emanating from government, which maintain knife carrying and use.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 9, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> I've said in two of them you're making things up. And again you're making things up. I would be very happy to have police involvement at a broad-based meeting, there is no better way to demonstrate their utter uselessness. Do you really think this will be a priority for them, knife crime? They'll use it as a counter in the game of playing politics with people's lives. And they'll be onto something else when it suits their agenda. I say again, there is no policing solution to knife crime. Having the police involved will only impress the credulous. The police cannot do anything meaningful about the complex social problems, many of them emanating from government, which maintain knife carrying and use.



They can do more than they’re presently doing, which appears to be containment of the issue in poor areas whilst wealthier areas are free from such trouble.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 9, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> They can do more than they’re presently doing, which appears to be containment of the issue in poor areas whilst wealthier areas are free from such trouble.


Don't piss about, say what more you think they could be doing, and do tell us more about how this containment works.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 9, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> Don't piss about, say what more you think they could be doing, and do tell us more about how this containment works.



Fuck me Pickman’s. They’re the police. Surely it doesn’t need explaining what they should or shouldn’t be doing and that their resources are directed more towards protecting wealthy areas than poorer ones.


----------



## Edie (Nov 9, 2018)

It’s ridiculous to say that there isn’t a role for the police. Completely out of touch with reality.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 9, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Fuck me Pickman’s. They’re the police. Surely it doesn’t need explaining what they should or shouldn’t be doing and that their resources are directed more towards protecting wealthy areas than poorer ones.


I've asked you so obvs I do think it needs explaining. Tell me this wonderful policing solution you have in your imagination. And while you're about it tell me more about this containment thing.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 9, 2018)

Edie said:


> It’s ridiculous to say that there isn’t a role for the police. Completely out of touch with reality.


Who has said there's no role for the police?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 9, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> I've asked you so obvs I do think it needs explaining. Tell me this wonderful policing solution you have in your imagination. And while you're about it tell me more about this containment thing.



I just think you’re completely removed from reality. Honestly, this stuff doesn’t need explaining.


----------



## Edie (Nov 9, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> saying there's a policing solution to knife crime is like saying there's a policing solution to drugs.


You.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 9, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I just think you’re completely removed from reality. Honestly, this stuff doesn’t need explaining.


You're full of fail. You bluster away and fart out guff about they can do more but when questioned about what you'd like to see then do you cannot say. Pisspoor. Doesn't need explaining? It's that your bluff's been called and there's nothing to show.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 9, 2018)

Edie he doesn’t understand because he’s forming a theoretical argument not born from living and working with the working class and what they think.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 9, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> You're full of fail. You bluster away and fart out guff about they can do more but when questioned about what you'd like to see then do you cannot say. Pisspoor. Doesn't need explaining? It's that your bluff's been called and there's nothing to show.



You haven’t a clue because you’re not one of us.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 9, 2018)

Edie said:


> You.


By no means. I have said there is no policing solution to this. And there isn't, as you have recognised. This does not mean no role for the police. It means that this has to be dealt with by a host of agencies, as in Scotland, rather than as we do in England as a criminal issue.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 9, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> You haven’t a clue because you’re not one of us.


I haven't a clue what you think the police should do because you refuse to say. You always pull this card out the pack when you can't argue the point.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 9, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> I haven't a clue what you think the police should do because you refuse to say. You always pull this card out the pack when you can't argue the point.



I’m coming from a wc position based on what people actually think in those communities. You’re coming from the mc position of telling me why I’m wrong. Same as it ever was.


----------



## Edie (Nov 9, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> By no means. I have said there is no policing solution to this. And there isn't, as you have recognised. This does not mean no role for the police. It means that this has to be dealt with by a host of agencies, as in Scotland, rather than as we do in England as a criminal issue.


I really can’t be arsed to play silly semantics. Of course policing is part of the solution, therefore the police have a role. Who do you think I called when my son was being threatened by 15 yo arsewipes and my tyres where done one night? The school policeman. And for the record he was brilliant, and didn’t go in like a bull in a china shop but actually discussed with me what felt best/safe.

I know it’s not the same as London, and it’s awful that these young lads are caught up in gangs (mine was just local shitheads being stupid kids). And it’s awful what Rutita1 says about how if you’re black that community just doesn’t even have that option.

But the police do have a role, most people want them to have a role and more of a role. But yes, I do get that they don’t hold the solution and less poverty and more hope and stronger communities are the actual solution.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 9, 2018)

It’s literally no different to Trot central committees.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 9, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> You always pull this card out the pack when you can't argue the point.



And how do you think it feels like for me when someone who has superior education ignores my points in favour of an easy win against that disadvantage?


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 9, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I’m coming from a wc position based on what people actually think in those communities. You’re coming from the mc position of telling me why I’m wrong. Same as it ever was.


Yeh. Now, if that's the case then please tell me what more you'd have the police do because it's plainly supremely obvious to you. As for this violence happening in wc areas, and not wealthier areas, it shouldn't come as much surprise being as it was reported a day or two back that the majority of knife crime happens when kids have just finished school, when they're on their way home. I don't think the police are containing anything, they're out of their depth on this knife crime thing, and while they may respond rapidly to something happening in eg hampstead it's a response, not a prevention. All any police response can be is something like stop and search, something reactive, something that's just responding to symptoms rather than attacking the driving forces. If you think the cops can do something more please tell me what as it's not at all clear to me.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 9, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> I haven't a clue what you think the police should do because you refuse to say. You always pull this card out the pack when you can't argue the point.



Incredible how his lived experience is really important but when others talk about theirs he dismisses it. Just like he claims no one here/the liberals care about Ireland or have a position on the situation there but he cares so much he doesn't post on any of the Ireland threads.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 9, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> And how do you think it feels like for me when someone who has superior education ignores my points in favour of an easy win against that disadvantage?


there's never an easy win with you! I don't think my education makes me in any way superior to you, might be better working in a library than you but that's about all.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 9, 2018)

Edie said:


> I really can’t be arsed to play silly semantics. Of course policing is part of the solution, therefore the police have a role. Who do you think I called when my son was being threatened by 15 yo arsewipes and my tyres where done one night? The school policeman. And for the record he was brilliant, and didn’t go in like a bull in a china shop but actually discussed with me what felt best/safe.
> 
> I know it’s not the same as London, and it’s awful that these young lads are caught up in gangs (mine was just local shitheads being stupid kids). And it’s awful what Rutita1 says about how if you’re black that community just doesn’t even have that option.
> 
> But the police do have a role, most people want them to have a role and more of a role. But yes, I do get that they don’t hold the solution and less poverty and more hope and stronger communities are the actual solution.



I 'm not sure which point of mine you are responding to here Edie, can you quote it for me?

I want to come back to this thread to add some more personal stuff at some point. Just need to shake the working week off a little more as I am feeling a bit frazzled.

I liked your post about your boys, the level of violence at their school, how their mates' mum is dealing with her fear for them with being so restrictive about what they can and can't do. It echos a lot of what my friends/neighbours are having to do with their teenage boys and to some extent girls.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 9, 2018)

Rutita1 said:


> Incredible how his lived experience is really important but when others talk about theirs he dismisses it. Just like he claims no one here/the liberals care about Ireland or have a position on the situation there but he cares so much he doesn't post on any of the Ireland threads.



I’m giving the perspective of many. Not ‘me’.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 9, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> there's never an easy win with you! I don't think my education makes me in any way superior to you, might be better working in a library than you but that's about all.



You’re digging into points that are obvious to me / everyone else for me to explain. Seriously, it shows you as out of touch.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 9, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> You’re digging into points that are obvious to me / everyone else for me to explain. Seriously, it shows you as out of touch.


Yeh. If they were really that obvious you'd have said x y z, can't you see Pickman's, it's as simple as 1 2 3, that education of yours didn't do you much good irl did it, or words to that effect.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 9, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> You’re digging into points that are obvious to me / everyone else for me to explain. Seriously, it shows you as out of touch.


All your posts over the last few months are mental.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 9, 2018)

You've been posting like some white choudrey.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 9, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> Yeh. If they were really that obvious you'd have said x y z, can't you see Pickman's, it's as simple as 1 2 3, that education of yours didn't do you much good irl did it, or words to that effect.



It’s surprising that drug dealing / murders are contained to poorer areas? I’m sure drug use happens everywhere. Even on Royal estates.


----------



## Edie (Nov 9, 2018)

Rutita1 said:


> I 'm not sure which point of mine you are responding to here Edie, can you quote it for me?
> 
> I want to come back to this thread to add some more personal stuff at some point. Just need to shake the working week off a little more as I am feeling a bit frazzled.
> 
> I liked your post about your boys, the level of violence at their school, how their mates' mum is dealing with her fear for them with being so restrictive about what they can and can't do. It echos a lot of what my friends/neighbours are having to do with their teenage boys and to some extent girls.


It wasn’t specifically anything you said. But I watched that video you posted about The Talk that black parents give their sons about how to react when the police stop them, and how the police are a threat to them. And honestly? That is just not my experience because frankly I’m white. And it just really struck a cord with me how awful it must be to have the police themselves as an additional actual threat to your sons if you’re from the black community. Like everyone I will avoid the police where at all possible and they make me nervous in the way all authority (social services included) do. But I know that if or when I do interact with them, or my kids do, they are not biased against me before I open my mouth. On the whole I find them one to one decent people, that’s my experience.

Damn I’m wording this badly. Does any of that make sense? The young black men getting stabbed have both the fear of random deadly violence and the fear of police violence to contend with. That’s not right is all I’m saying.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 9, 2018)

Oops, both above to magnus.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 9, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> Oops, both above to magnus.



Possibly. I run with all sorts for fun really. I want to know what people think. But there’s some seriousness within it. It’s a testing ground for positions.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 9, 2018)

Edie said:


> It wasn’t specifically anything you said. But I watched that video you posted about The Talk that black parents give their sons about how to react when the police stop them, and how the police are a threat to them. And honestly? That is just not my experience because frankly I’m white. And it just really struck a cord with me how awful it must be to have the police themselves as an additional actual threat to your sons if you’re from the black community. Like everyone I will avoid the police where at all possible and they make me nervous in the way all authority (social services included) do. But I know that if or when I do interact with them, or my kids do, they are not biased against me before I open my mouth. On the whole I find them one to one decent people, that’s my experience.
> 
> Damn I’m wording this badly. Does any of that make sense? The young black men getting stabbed have both the fear of random deadly violence and the fear of police violence to contend with. That’s not right is all I’m saying.




Thanks for explaining,  yes it makes sense.


----------



## planetgeli (Nov 9, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> You've been posting like some white choudrey.



Anjem? (Choudary) Surely not the CEO of Bestway, Zameer (Choudrey)? God forbid Sabah, #queer, brown, hairy, trans, Muslim?


----------



## Cid (Nov 9, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Possibly. I run with all sorts for fun really. I want to know what people think. But there’s some seriousness within it. It’s a testing ground for positions.



Positions that are too obvious for you to bother setting out?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 9, 2018)

Cid said:


> Positions that are too obvious for you to bother setting out?



I learn from debate. Don’t we all?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 9, 2018)

Cid said:


> Positions that are too obvious for you to bother setting out?



And that will be done politically, not on here.


----------



## Cid (Nov 9, 2018)

So... It's not a testing ground then.

Fuck it, dunno why I'm bothering.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 9, 2018)

Not sure how you arrived at that from what I said.


----------



## Cid (Nov 9, 2018)

You just repeatedly contradicted yourself, read your own posts...

At this point I have to just assume you're taking the piss and leave you to it.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 9, 2018)

Yeah, maybe do that then.


----------



## Saul Goodman (Nov 9, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I most certainly do have a word for parasitical cunts who make the lives of working class people a misery by dealing drugs to their kids and/or murdering them.
> I couldn’t give a fuck what you think tbh.


You seem to be a tad confused. You don't seem to realise that it's working class people who are selling drugs to other working class people, and it's working class people who are murdering other working class people.
Or are you suggesting that affluent children are selling teenths to cover the insurance on their Porsches, and stabbing anyone who dares to question their deal size?


----------



## Saul Goodman (Nov 9, 2018)

OzT said:


> I would have thought people growing up in the 50s, 60s and 70s had heapsa slum estates too to live in, in fact I would have thought the less well off in those days had less than they do now, in material pocessions. Food quality/quantity would have been poor, home entertainments wouldn't have been flat screen tellys or steroes, clothings usually hand me downs, and schools probably cared less then in those days. I would have thought life was much harder, and duller then too, also without prospects, and deffo without mobile phones and designer trainers. And yes drugs was available in those days, maybe not fashionable but enough hard and soft drugs were available. A lot of youths too in those days were also disenfranchised.
> 
> But teenagers then didn't go round stabbing each other, joining in gangs or initmdating the public. Of course there was trouble then, there is in every generation, just not the scale it seems to be now.
> 
> ...


I'll hazard a guess that you didn't grow up in the UK?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 9, 2018)

Saul Goodman said:


> You seem to be a tad confused. You don't seem to realise that it's working class people who are selling drugs to other working class people, and it's working class people who are murdering other working class people.
> Or are you suggesting that affluent children are selling teenths to cover the insurance on their Porsches, and stabbing anyone who dares to question their deal size?



What do you think ‘lumpen’ means that everyone has being having a fit about?
Are you a new profile of casually red btw?


----------



## Saul Goodman (Nov 9, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Edie he doesn’t understand because he’s forming a theoretical argument not born from living and working with the working class and what they think.


From your replies on this thread, I'm starting to doubt that you've ever even met a working class person. You seem to be a bit of a communist Walter Mitty.


----------



## Saul Goodman (Nov 9, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> What do you think ‘lumpen’ means that everyone has being having a fit about?
> Are you a new profile of casually red btw?


I know what lumpen means.
Have you ever met a working class person?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 9, 2018)

Saul Goodman said:


> I know what lumpen means.
> Have you ever met a working class person?



No. I’m making it all up. Really I went to private school in North London and studied acting.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 9, 2018)

_Because this stuff is so important...why don't you lot take it more seriously?
...fucking liberal/MC/Identarians...I'm having fun, debating, something...no one else seems to understand but I STILL win okay!    _


----------



## Saul Goodman (Nov 9, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> No. I’m making it all up. Really I went to private school in North London and studied acting.


I honestly believe you are living in an insular bubble of affluence. You seem to have absolutely no clue whatsoever about the things you think you're so clued up on.
I was being a bit tongue-in-cheek when I asked if you'd ever met a working class person but you read like you've only read books about them.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Nov 9, 2018)

what the fuck has happened with this thread?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 9, 2018)

not-bono-ever said:


> what the fuck has happened with this thread?



Magnus.


----------



## MrSki (Nov 9, 2018)

It has gone lumpen,


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 9, 2018)

Saul Goodman said:


> I honestly believe you are living in an insular bubble of affluence. You seem to have absolutely no clue whatsoever about the things you think you're so clued up on.
> I was being a bit tongue-in-cheek when I asked if you'd ever met a working class person but you read like you've only read books about them.



I read books about north eastern de-industrialisation of the steel works and chemical industry. What books did you read?


----------



## Saul Goodman (Nov 9, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I read books about north eastern de-industrialisation of the steel works and chemical industry. What books did you read?


I experienced it, you fucking fraud!


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 9, 2018)

Honestly, this place is full of actors accusing you of being an actor.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 9, 2018)

MrSki said:


> It has gone lumpen,



Nah...that would be helping it stay more coherent, however challenging.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 9, 2018)

Saul Goodman said:


> I experienced it, you fucking fraud!



Of course you did.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 9, 2018)

You didn’t even get that I was being sarcastic.


----------



## Saul Goodman (Nov 9, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Of course you did.


Chez Mitty


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 9, 2018)

_hahahahah I am right whatever...ahahahaha it's all a fucking laugh...hahahahaha _


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 9, 2018)

Saul Goodman said:


> Chez Mitty



Yeah. Even those arguing against me on here know vaguely who I am and aren’t saying I’m lying. Who are you?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 9, 2018)

_Vaguely. Have no fucking clue. Not one person agreeing. hahaha freedom of speech. hahahaha!_


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 9, 2018)

Rutita1 said:


> _Vaguely. Have no fucking clue. Not one person agreeing. hahaha freedom of speech. hahahaha!_



Couldn’t you be doing something vaguely like fun on a Friday evening instead of whatever it is you’re doing now?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 9, 2018)

It’s just a personal slagfest now. I’ll take it from Rutii but not from some twat hiding behind a new profile.


----------



## Saul Goodman (Nov 9, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> It’s just a personal slagfest now. I’ll take it from Rutii but not from some twat hiding behind a new profile.


I'm hiding behind nothing. I'm merely commenting based on my observations.
I've no idea who you are but you read like a middle-class wannabe Chez.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 9, 2018)

Saul Goodman said:


> I'm hiding behind nothing. I'm merely commenting based on my observations.
> I've no idea who you are but you read like a middle-class wannabe Chez.



I suggest you improve your reading abilities.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 9, 2018)

Sing Danny Boy, go on..


----------



## Saul Goodman (Nov 9, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Sing Danny Boy, go on..


Is that supposed to be funny because I'm a paddy?


----------



## DexterTCN (Nov 9, 2018)

not-bono-ever said:


> what the fuck has happened with this thread?


People who can't even have a civil conversation are trying to address the problem of violence in the community.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 9, 2018)

Saul Goodman said:


> Is that supposed to be funny because I'm a paddy?



Aren’t you just claiming that though? From reading books?


----------



## Saul Goodman (Nov 9, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Aren’t you just claiming that though? From reading books?


Fuck off you weirdo.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 9, 2018)

Saul Goodman said:


> Fuck off you weirdo.



You made that argument about me


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 9, 2018)

Anti-racist, WC hero...FAKE FUCKING NEWS.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 9, 2018)

I’m gifted in making idiots react.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 9, 2018)

MY FRIDAY NIGHT


----------



## pocketscience (Nov 9, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> It’s just a personal slagfest now. I’ll take it from Rutii but not from some twat hiding behind a new profile.


wasn't you someone else once too? Slagging off a working-class car mechanic who was being fucked over by gentrifiers, who'd committed the heinous crime of starting his own business?


----------



## Saul Goodman (Nov 9, 2018)

pocketscience said:


> wasn't you someone else once too? Slagging off a working-class car mechanic who was being fucked over by gentrifiers, who'd committed the heinous crime of starting his own business?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 9, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I’m gifted in making idiots react.





Magnus McGinty said:


> MY FRIDAY NIGHT





pocketscience said:


> wasn't you someone else once too? Slagging off a working-class car mechanic who was being fucked over by gentrifiers, who'd committed the heinous crime of starting his own business?


He is not a number he is a free [ed: name removed]. Fun, fun, fun!


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 9, 2018)

pocketscience said:


> wasn't you someone else once too? Slagging off a working-class car mechanic who was being fucked over by gentrifiers, who'd committed the heinous crime of starting his own business?



Did I? To clarify, I don’t have a problem with people setting up their own business but were they planning on exploiting wage labour? I might have had something to say about that.


----------



## MrSki (Nov 9, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> You made that argument about me





Magnus McGinty said:


> I’m gifted in making idiots react.


Yeah you sad twat. I am an idiot who thinks you are about as working class as my fucking hoover. I hope you get a buzz out of being a tosser. Is it the vibrations?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 9, 2018)

Rutita1 said:


> He is not a number he is a free citizen 666. Fun, fun, fun!



Calm down.


----------



## Saul Goodman (Nov 9, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Did I? To clarify, I don’t have a problem with people setting up their own business but were they planning on exploiting wage labour? I might have had something to say about that.


Tilting at virtue signalling.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 9, 2018)

MrSki said:


> Yeah you sad twat. I am an idiot who thinks you are about as working class as my fucking hoover. I hope you get a buzz out of being a tosser. Is it the vibrations?



I think you live close to me. You’re on the Victoria line - Walthamstow or Finsbury Park kind of way?


----------



## pocketscience (Nov 9, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Did I? To clarify, I don’t have a problem with people setting up their own business but were they planning on exploiting wage labour? I might have had something to say about that.


You didn't/ couldn't have known. Yet you held forth about having no sympathy that his working-class business was being screwed over by a billionaire property developer


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 9, 2018)

Saul Goodman said:


> Tilting at virtue signalling.



Like I pretend to be working class.


----------



## Saul Goodman (Nov 9, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Like I pretend to be working class.


Exactly like.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 9, 2018)

pocketscience said:


> You didn't/ couldn't have known. Yet you held forth about having no sympathy that his working-class business was being screwed over by a billionaire property developer



Evidence?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 9, 2018)

Saul Goodman said:


> Exactly like.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 9, 2018)

MrSki said:


> Yeah you sad twat. I am an idiot who thinks you are about as working class as my fucking hoover. I hope you get a buzz out of being a tosser. Is it the vibrations?



Come on, I’ll meet you for a beer. I’m pleasant company.


----------



## Saul Goodman (Nov 9, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Come on, I’ll meet you for a beer. I’m pleasant company.


Don't forget to call into a charity shop on your way and pick up a working-class cap.


----------



## MrSki (Nov 9, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Like I pretend to be working class.


So what makes you so working class? Were you a miner ot a steel worker? No you are just a twat who claims that all your neighbours are lumpen yet you are so enlightened. 
You might be a lovely bloke but you come across as  a twat & a half.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 9, 2018)

Saul Goodman said:


> Don't forget to call into a charity shop on your way and pick up a working-class cap.



Come along too.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 9, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Edie he doesn’t understand because he’s forming a theoretical argument not born from living and working with the working class and what they think.


I'm not forming a theoretical argument, and you have no notion where I've lived or with who. Strange how in person you're all hail fellow well met but on the Internet you lie and invent like your life depended on it


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 9, 2018)

MrSki said:


> So what makes you so working class? Were you a miner ot a steel worker? No you are just a twat who claims that all your neighbours are lumpen yet you are so enlightened.
> You might be a lovely bloke but you come across as  a twat & a half.



I have worked at British Steel Lackenby plant yes.


----------



## Saul Goodman (Nov 9, 2018)

MrSki said:


> So what makes you so working class?


He read a book about them and once wore a peaked cap.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 9, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> I'm not forming a theoretical argument, and you have no notion where I've lived or with who. Strange how in person you're all hail fellow well met but on the Internet you lie and invent like your life depended on it



I could say the same about you. You’re not the same in person as you are online.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 9, 2018)

Saul Goodman said:


> He read a book about them and once wore a peaked cap.



You’re a complete fantasist who nobody knows.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 9, 2018)

Knife crime and youth killing each other... Magnus is the real victim here, fuck off everyone else.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 9, 2018)

Nobody has claimed that, including me. At least make your pile on mean something.


----------



## Saul Goodman (Nov 9, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> You’re a complete fantasist who nobody knows.


Plenty of people know me, Mr. Nondescript Chez.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 9, 2018)

Saul Goodman said:


> Plenty of people know me, Mr. Nondescript Chez.



I get that you’re having a go at me because a pile on is happening, but you haven’t done so independently in the past. I appreciate the new found confidence though.


----------



## pocketscience (Nov 9, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Evidence?





Citizen66 said:


> Small businesses can fuck off. Unless they support working class actions (I'm sure some do) and/ or stuff in the community, they can't suddenly come crying for working class support when it suddenly dawns on them that the shit can affect them too.


----------



## fucthest8 (Nov 9, 2018)

<ignores entire thread>

"So if you hate yourself enough, and hate others enough, then doing terrible things to them becomes your only pastime, your only pleasure. Because in the moment when ... you slip your blade behind their eyeball, you have control, and that means something. It means something when someone else is your master and that’s the only control you’ll ever have.”


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 9, 2018)

Which is still my stance pocketscience  so I don’t know what exciting news you’re revealing.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 9, 2018)

MrSki said:


> So what makes you so working class? Were you a miner ot a steel worker? No you are just a twat who claims that all your neighbours are lumpen yet you are so enlightened.
> You might be a lovely bloke but you come across as  a twat & a half.



If you want more specific info I worked in the beam mill of British Steel Lackenby Plant circa 1993-4.


----------



## pocketscience (Nov 9, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Which is still my stance pocketscience  so I don’t know what exciting news you’re revealing.


working class locals lost their jobs for the finacial  gain of a billionaire property developer, cashing in on affluent millenials doing faux raves.
your hard nosed rationale said 'fuck off mr garage man, not supporting working class actions' regardless of him creating working class jobs.
I'm with mr goodmann here - I reckon you aint got a clue about the working class and there's a guilt complex hidden in there somewhere.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 9, 2018)

pocketscience said:


> working class locals lost their jobs for the finacial  gain of a billionaire property developer, cashing in on affluent millenials doing faux raves.
> your hard nosed rationale said 'fuck off mr garage man, not suppirting working class actions' regardless of him creating working class jobs.
> I'm with mr goodmann here - I reckon you aint got a clue about the working class and there's a guilt complex hidden in there somewhere.



Yeah. What we need is to have our labour value exploited by small businesses otherwise it’ll be big businesses doing it anyway.


----------



## pocketscience (Nov 9, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Yeah. What we need is to have our labour value exploited by small businesses otherwise it’ll be big businesses doing it anyway.


no irony in that wrt the context of this thread. working class jobs wiped out in hackney so the middle class can sniff coke. 
quick, call the old bill!!!


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 9, 2018)

pocketscience said:


> no irony in that wrt the context of this thread. working class jobs wiped out in hackney so the middle class can sniff coke.
> quick, call the old bill!!!



What we need is those good friendly bosses.
I appreciate your faculties in remembering what I said years back, I didn’t remember it, but it hardly damages me in any way given I think the same today.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 9, 2018)

_Working class people can't have trades, be self employed/be business starters and employ others? We should just leave that to others so we can stay in the disempowered fucking misery of not  being able to create or have jobs and working for the likes of each other? Leave that to the experts ye fucking SHILL LIBERAL MIDDLE CLASS SCUM!_


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 9, 2018)

And you shake it all about. And that’s what it’s all about!


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 9, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I could say the same about you. You’re not the same in person as you are online.


none of my arguments end in as homs: but you resort to that all the fucking time like it's a trump card. But it isn't, it just shows the weakness of your claims when it's all you're left with. Disappointing.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 9, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> none of my arguments end in as homs: but you resort to that all the fucking time like it's a trump card. But it isn't, it just shows the weakness of your claims when it's all you're left with. Disappointing.



I agree I shouldn’t do that. Accept my apologies, I’ll refrain in future.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Nov 9, 2018)




----------



## fucthest8 (Nov 9, 2018)

I am considerably more working class that yow.

Every time I wonder why I barely ever come here any more, a thread like this pops up to remind me. Stupid, point scoring bullshit, with no-one actually interested in discussing anything, just _winning_, that's all that matters isn't it? Fucking tragic. Literally, what, 15 years of watching you cunts at this? Feeling like I've got nothing to contribute when actually it's YOU, you've got nothing new to say, no actual insight, just the same tired shit over and over and over again. So fucking dull.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 10, 2018)

Well just fuck off then.
For what it’s worth- it’s others who demand to know my class credentials for the crime of talking about it in those terms. That they think I’m lying just exposes themselves. Edie liked a lot of my posts and didn’t think I was lying and that’s no surprise as she isn’t pretending either.


----------



## fucthest8 (Nov 10, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Well just fuck off then.
> For what it’s worth- it’s others who demand to know my class credentials for the crime of talking about it in those terms. That they think I’m lying just exposes themselves. Edie liked a lot of my posts and didn’t think I was lying and that’s no surprise as she isn’t pretending either.



REALLY? That's your response? "Fuck off and a person liked my posts so there ner?" 

Good grief.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 10, 2018)

It’s Friday and I’m copping all the grief


----------



## fucthest8 (Nov 10, 2018)

Also, interesting that you respond to a post aimed at the ENTIRE FUCKING PLACE like it was aimed at you. Hmmmmm.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 10, 2018)

*sigh*


----------



## Smoking kills (Nov 10, 2018)

MrSki said:


> Yeah you sad twat. I am an idiot who thinks you are about as working class as my fucking hoover. I hope you get a buzz out of being a tosser. Is it the vibrations?


Henry Hoover is PFWC, you fucking idiot!


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 10, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Well just fuck off then.
> For what it’s worth- it’s others who demand to know my class credentials for the crime of talking about it in those terms. That they think I’m lying just exposes themselves. Edie liked a lot of my posts and didn’t think I was lying and that’s no surprise as she isn’t pretending either.


I've resisted that temptation but it does beg several questions. You're almost daring people to tell you of their experiences living in various bits of down at heel London. And lots of us have those experiences. What most of is I suspect don't have, including you, is the experience of bringing up a kid in those areas. In that  I  do defer to the likes of edie on certain things. Doesn't mean I agree with her, mind you. I don't. But I respect that she has experiences that I don't have.


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Nov 10, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> It’s Friday and I’m copping all the grief


WANKER

kidding


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Nov 10, 2018)

Mildly amused at the class credentials chat... did you work down pit? 
Lassies with absent dads must be the underclass


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 10, 2018)

I was in the middle of one of those pile ons where the obvious come forward to have a pop along with the less obvious and those you’ve never heard of. It’s glorious but I’m not sure who you mean that I lashed out at incorrectly littlebabyjesus


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 10, 2018)

HoratioCuthbert said:


> Mildly amused at the class credentials chat... did you work down pit?
> Lassies with absent dads must be the underclass



Can I at least get a few hours sleep?


----------



## Smoking kills (Nov 10, 2018)

ska invita said:


> a couple of thoughts about moving families;
> 
> -this is already happening as a 'solution' to social problems via urban councils knocking down social housing - brushing the problems away is a big motivating factor in those policies
> -if young people, especially involved in gangs, get moved into other troubled urban areas - say from Walworth to Thamesmead, they and their families then experience a ton of shit along the outsiders/postcode wars line from local crews. <<<a big issue that, which social services don't seem to give a shit about.
> ...


This. I think that the migration of "looked after" children to cheap accomodation miles from their home areas and family networks followed the same economic and political logic.


----------



## Edie (Nov 10, 2018)

Magnus McGinty you’re Citizen66?! I didn’t know that. Hullo! I remember you were about to become a dad, how’s it going?

(And littlebabyjesus I may be a mum of teens but I’ve never parented in London. And in all honesty, this is overwhelmingly a London problem. Leeds just isn’t anywhere near as bad for knife crime and young lads thank the lord).


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 10, 2018)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I've resisted that temptation but it does beg several questions. You're almost daring people to tell you of their experiences living in various bits of down at heel London. And lots of us have those experiences. What most of is I suspect don't have, including you, is the experience of bringing up a kid in those areas. In that  I  do defer to the likes of edie on certain things. Doesn't mean I agree with her, mind you. I don't. But I respect that she has experiences that I don't have.



There is something really upsetting/frustrating about this kind of _baiting_ and _it's all a bit of debating fun _bravado and I fully expect that it's the kind of behaviour that would stop people posting about their actual experiences anyway. It has stopped me this week for example.

I just can't bear to read any more of his shitty, dismissive comments and then acting the victim and claiming he is being piled onto when others rightly question why he is being such a disengenuos, have his cake and eat it, batshit twit.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 10, 2018)

Well worth a listen.

Perspective, honesty and a lesson in the challenges young people, youth workers and other community members actually face day to day.


----------



## Athos (Nov 10, 2018)

Rutita1 said:


> _Working class people can't have trades, be self employed/be business starters and employ others? We should just leave that to others so we can stay in the disempowered fucking misery of not  being able to create or have jobs and working for the likes of each other? Leave that to the experts ye fucking SHILL LIBERAL MIDDLE CLASS SCUM!_



Whilst I'm not defending Magnus's posts, your implication that the way for individual working class people to gain empowerment is to exercise a freedom to become capitalists is literally classical liberalism!

If you're going to reply, please address the point, rather than a load of _ad hominem_.

ETA: Actually, don't bother; it'd be a shame to derail this thread further.


----------



## ska invita (Nov 10, 2018)

Athos said:


> Whilst I'm not defending Magnus's posts, your implication that the way for individual working class people to gain empowerment is to exercise a freedom to become capitalists is literally classical liberalism!


lol
these working class people...why cant they all take the bar? 
Sunday sermons from the rich lawyer.... wake me up when its over


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 10, 2018)

It would be nice if the stench of desperate attention seeking bullshit didn't succeed in distracting/derailing this thread today.

If anyone has the time please listen to that vid I put up a few posts back.


----------



## Athos (Nov 10, 2018)

ska invita said:


> lol
> these working class people...why cant they all take the bar?
> Sunday sermons from the rich lawyer.... wake me up when its over



I'm not a lawyer (and have never been a member of the bar).  And, when I was a solicitor, I was employed; I sold my labour power, as I still have to do.  I was then, as I have always been, working class.

But, as I said, let's not derail this thread (especially if it's for this _ad hominem_ stuff, rather than addressing the point I made about Rutita's idea for working class improvement being to become capitalists).


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 10, 2018)

I’m busy all day so crack on without me


----------



## Edie (Nov 10, 2018)

Rutita1 ive done this to death on urban when my now ex husband started his own business and made a success of it and now employs 50 people. It’s frowned upon. Seems crazy to me but there you go.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 10, 2018)

Edie said:


> Rutita1 ive done this to death on urban when my now ex husband started his own business and made a success of it and now employs 50 people. It’s frowned upon. Seems crazy to me but there you go.




Edie I'm not gonna get drawn into a discussion started by anyone who has put words into my mouth/posts (not you). I also won't discuss that derailing nonsense further unless someone starts a thread elsewhere. I give zero fucks what they think.

SWEET DREAMS!


----------



## Cid (Nov 10, 2018)

Rutita1 said:


> Well worth a listen.
> 
> Perspective, honesty and a lesson in the challenges young people, youth workers and other community members actually face day to day.




This was excellent... Athos give it a watch so you can get on the right track for this thread.


----------



## Athos (Nov 10, 2018)

Edie said:


> Rutita1 ive done this to death on urban when my now ex husband started his own business and made a success of it and now employs 50 people. It’s frowned upon. Seems crazy to me but there you go.



It's not a moral judgement about him; it's about the best way for society to be. Some think that's an end to capitalism; others think it would be for individual workers to pull themselves up to become capitalists. Maybe start a thread?


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Nov 10, 2018)

Oh. I came to the thread to read what people had to say about knife violence and murders among youth.

Reading recent posts it seems I still have much to learn about the internet.

Instead of any wrangling with the nature of male violence on the streets, I'm faced instead with (probably) male willy-waving about class on an internet board.

In some ways it's pretty tasteless tbh.

Anyhow, my opinion is probably clear enough - we can and should talk about dynamics particular to certain communities and groups. This gets done a lot. The r/w are especially keen to underline the extent to which this is often "black" crime. When muslims are violent, it is "muslim" or "asian" violence. When whites are violent, it's "violence".

As it happens, in all cases it's nearly always male violence. But saying that is PCGM (tm)


----------



## Edie (Nov 10, 2018)

Rutita1 said:


> Well worth a listen.
> 
> Perspective, honesty and a lesson in the challenges young people, youth workers and other community members actually face day to day.



Wow. Well there it is. There’s the answer to the thread.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 10, 2018)

Fucking hell.

Lives 'put at risk' after names from secret Met gangs matrix leaked


----------



## eatmorecheese (Nov 10, 2018)

Rutita1 said:


> Fucking hell.
> 
> Lives 'put at risk' after names from secret Met gangs matrix leaked


 ffs


----------



## klang (Nov 10, 2018)

Rutita1 said:


> Fucking hell.
> 
> Lives 'put at risk' after names from secret Met gangs matrix leaked


why would somebody do this? just to be vicious and cause problems?


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 10, 2018)

Rutita1 said:


> Fucking hell.
> 
> Lives 'put at risk' after names from secret Met gangs matrix leaked


Not sure how anyone can have confidence in the met, when they've been so cavalier with people's information, not that it's much surprise given that when I worked for a local authority archive we got an email asking for information regarding historical child sex abuse where the cop writing had included an email chain including dates of alleged abuse, a user's name, victim's name and details of what this person claimed to have suffered. Heads should roll over this, but I doubt anything more than a gently slapped wrist will result


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 10, 2018)

littleseb said:


> why would somebody do this? just to be vicious and cause problems?


Stupidity


----------



## Saul Goodman (Nov 10, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I get that you’re having a go at me because a pile on is happening, but you haven’t done so independently in the past. I appreciate the new found confidence though.


But I have pulled you on your bullshitting in the past. I did it on your 'Online Aggressiveness' bullshit thread, without help from anyone else.
You invent shit and post it as fact to try to impress people. It doesn't impress people. It just makes you look silly.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 10, 2018)

Well done you. Have a fuckin banana.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 10, 2018)

littleseb said:


> why would somebody do this? just to be vicious and cause problems?





> Tanya O’Carroll, lead researcher on a separate Amnesty International report into the matrix, said the breach was “shocking but not surprising”.
> 
> She added: “The police share the gangs matrix with hundreds of partner agencies … some don’t understand the importance of it.


----------



## Athos (Nov 10, 2018)

Cid said:


> This was excellent... Athos give it a watch so you can get on the right track for this thread.



I have watched it.  It was ok.  He made a handful of points I agreed with, and some I didn't. The best thing about it was his sincerity and desire to help the community. But it didn't really hang together that well, or say anything new or particularly insightful.  What, in particular, did you think was "excellent" about it? What were the main points you took from it?


----------



## Edie (Nov 10, 2018)

Athos said:


> I have watched it.  It was ok.  He made a handful of points I agreed with, and some I didn't. The best thing about it was his sincerity and desire to help the community. But it didn't really hang together that well, or say anything new or particularly insightful.  What, in particular, did you think was "excellent" about it? What were the main points you took from it?


Oh gosh really? It really blew me away. I thought he spoke so powerfully. He clearly has an absolutely excellent grasp of exactly _what_ the problem is, what _caused_ the problem, and what will and won’t work in solving it. And more to the point, he’s one of the people on the actual ground working to solve it, working with young black men who he obviously sees as his own, who he feels for and takes responsibility for.

When he said ‘your responsibility does not end with your child’ I wanted to stand up and cheer. If only that message was shared by more of us. THATS the most important part of the fucking solution right there, in a sentence.

Not only all that, but he outlines clearly and with justified rage how the fucking system at city hall, and of the racism (and classism), that CREATES the conditions for these kids making these choices is corrupt and how it works. When he’s talking about what choices young kids have between drug running or money for the metre, THAT’S the problem. And then he gives  an actual example of how Boris Johnson’s administration used cronyism to fuck over the working class solution to the problem. And THATS the problem too.

So yeah. Imo it’s men like that who should be leading the solution in London. Give that man the fucking job and the resources, and let him and the other black men who went to city hall that day make the changes.

We can all sit here in different parts of the country worrying at the catastrophe, and the papers can write their headlines of shock and bemused horror, but this man? He’s grasped it, and he HAS the answer.

Anyway, that’s how I felt watching it. How come you felt different mate?


----------



## Edie (Nov 10, 2018)

It’s possible my critical appraisal of stuff like this isn’t top notch mind you


----------



## Athos (Nov 10, 2018)

Edie said:


> Oh gosh really? It really blew me away. I thought he spoke so powerfully. He clearly has an absolutely excellent grasp of exactly _what_ the problem is, what _caused_ the problem, and what will and won’t work in solving it. And more to the point, he’s one of the people on the actual ground working to solve it, working with young black men who he obviously sees as his own, who he feels for and takes responsibility for.
> 
> When he said ‘your responsibility does not end with your child’ I wanted to stand up and cheer. If only that message was shared by more of us. THATS the most important part of the fucking solution right there, in a sentence.
> 
> ...



Yes, he spoke passionately. And respect to him for doing stuff on the ground; I agree with him that we all need to do stuff in and for our communities, of course.  And I agree that was a good line. 

But I don't agree with you that he clearly sets out the causes of the problem at all - it's a scatter-gun, ranging from parents, the police (who he wants to work with and see more of), racism in schools, and City Hall (with which he persuaded other people to work, despite their cynicism).  In my opinion, he came closest when he was talking about poverty as the driver (and said that crosses racial lines). But he didn't really look into that with any depth.

I didn't really get a sense of what he thinks the solution is.  What he'd do with these thousand black boys, and how that would make a profound and lasting difference.  Or even how what he would do would address those things he identified as causes.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 10, 2018)

Edie said:


> It’s possible my critical appraisal of stuff like this isn’t top notch mind you



There isn't anything wrong with your critical appraisal. Paul Lawrence knows what he is talking about and articulated very well the range of issues as he sees and experiences them in his work and as a member of this society. It would be interesting to know what the mentor-ship program was of course.

Of course there will be people here who will criticise what he has said...they'll have zero experience of actually doing this work though and they'll have fuck all solutions to offer...they just know think better, but they clearly don't.


----------



## Athos (Nov 10, 2018)

Rutita1 said:


> There isn't anything wrong with your critical appraisal. Paul Lawrence knows what he is talking about and articulated very well the range of issues as he sees and experiences them in his work and as a member of this society. It would be interesting to know what the mentor-ship program was of course.
> 
> Of course there will be people here who will criticise what he has said...they'll have zero experience of actually doing this work though and they'll have fuck all solutions to offer...they just know think better, but they clearly don't.



I explained why I didn't think his video was all that. You've not engaged with the content of my post, of course.  Instead you've tried to smear me again.  But you're completely wrong in that; I've got lots of experience of community youth projects, in both professional and personal capacities.


----------



## Edie (Nov 10, 2018)

Athos said:


> Yes, he spoke passionately. And respect to him for doing stuff on the ground; I agree with him that we all need to do stuff in and for our communities, of course.  And I agree that was a good line.
> 
> But I don't agree with you that he clearly sets out the causes of the problem at all - it's a scatter-gun, ranging from parents, the police (who he wants to work with and see more of), racism in schools, and City Hall (with which he persuaded other people to work, despite their cynicism).  In my opinion, he came closest when he was talking about poverty as the driver (and said that crosses racial lines). But he didn't really look into that with any depth.
> 
> I didn't really get a sense of what he thinks the solution is.  What he'd do with these thousand black boys, and how that would make a profound and lasting difference.  Or even how what he would do would address those things he identified as causes.


Thing is, in that speech (or whatever you want to call it) it came from the heart but with a background of knowledge and experience. But it wasn’t intended to be a comprehensive analysis. And it’s more powerful for that imo. He was speaking to other people.

But I bet my bottom dollar that he could he could (and has) that analysis. Because much in what he said showed the depth of his understanding.

The causes ARE scattergun. They are all those things! Driven underneath by a system based on classism and racism. That’s what he says (better than me).

And as for solutions, the solutions are what he knows. The solutions are ALREADY being offered by all the groups he links to under the post. The grassroots charities making a difference. Already doing the work. Crying out for money and volunteers. More kids and more parents wanting their help than they can give. *Fund them*.

And yes, the ultimate solution is to end the shitty classist and racist way the entire fucking system is based on. He knows that, we know that. But in the absence of total political... well, revolution, frankly... he acknowledges that as young men are dying NOW we need to act now within the system. And that means funding proper grassroots solutions (which already exist). And actually listening to the black (and white) communities where this complete atrocity is taking place.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 10, 2018)

Edie said:


> Thing is, in that speech (or whatever you want to call it) it came from the heart but with a background of knowledge and experience. But it wasn’t intended to be a comprehensive analysis. And it’s more powerful for that imo. He was speaking to other people.
> 
> But I bet my bottom dollar that he could he could (and has) that analysis. Because much in what he said showed the depth of his understanding.
> 
> ...



Like I said...There isn't anything wrong with your critical appraisal.


----------



## Athos (Nov 10, 2018)

Edie said:


> Thing is, in that speech (or whatever you want to call it) it came from the heart but with a background of knowledge and experience. But it wasn’t intended to be a comprehensive analysis. And it’s more powerful for that imo. He was speaking to other people.
> 
> But I bet my bottom dollar that he could he could (and has) that analysis. Because much in what he said showed the depth of his understanding.
> 
> ...



Yes, I certainly wouldn't take issue with the idea that grassroots organisations need funding.

Maybe he does have a really good analysis, but that wasn't clear from the video.

Albeit I accept what he did say was put passionately.

Don't get me wrong; it's not like I vehemently disagree with what he says. Rather, I found it a bit superficial and hackneyed.


----------



## Edie (Nov 10, 2018)

> LAST UPDATED MAY 2018...
> 
> BLACK CHARITIES and ORGANISATIONS supporting our young people.
> 
> ...


There. Imagine a world where all of them were funded to reach every young man, every family, every father and mother who wanted them.

Where our young people were inspired to lift their eyes, educate themselves, know they could achieve and that was a _reality_. Not one where more than 50% of black graduates can’t get a job.

Where a young man going off the rails WAS mentored, offered support, his family _were_ helped by neighbours and these organisations, by the community.

This IS the future we want, and we HAVE failed them that it’s not the reality. That their reality is so shit that running drugs and carrying knives is the better solution. 

I just wish there were more men like that in positions of power and less Boris bloody Johnsons.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 10, 2018)

Worth a read for more details of what went sideways...

Mentor programme under scrutiny

Will Boris mentoring scheme at last succeed?


----------



## Athos (Nov 10, 2018)

Edie said:


> There. Imagine a world where all of them were funded to reach every young man, every family, every father and mother who wanted them.
> 
> Where our young people were inspired to lift their eyes, educate themselves, know they could achieve and that was a _reality_. Not one where more than 50% of black graduates can’t get a job.
> 
> ...



I'm sure more funding for those groups would be a good thing. As would fewer people like Boris. But neither of those things would mean there's sufficient e.g. jobs, housing, or educational opportunities for those boys (or other working class kids).


----------



## purenarcotic (Nov 11, 2018)

I think we need to have a better acknowledgment that young boys groomed into selling drugs / carrying weapons for gangs etc are being exploited and are victims of abuse. They are cannon fodder for grown men happy to exploit vulnerable kids. These adults are disgusting child abusers, they should be painted as such much more explicitly.


----------



## DotCommunist (Nov 11, 2018)

purenarcotic said:


> I think we need to have a better acknowledgment that young boys groomed into selling drugs / carrying weapons for gangs etc are being exploited and are victims of abuse. They are cannon fodder for grown men happy to exploit vulnerable kids. These adults are disgusting child abusers, they should be painted as such much more explicitly.


interestingly the trafficking laws were use to convict someone running 'county lines' kids no so long ago


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 11, 2018)

purenarcotic said:


> I think we need to have a better acknowledgment that young boys groomed into selling drugs / carrying weapons for gangs etc are being exploited and are victims of abuse. They are cannon fodder for grown men happy to exploit vulnerable kids. These adults are disgusting child abusers, they should be painted as such much more explicitly.



Trafficking of children & 'county lines' - a new guide for professionals and lawyers working with victims of child criminal exploitation

Children caught up in drugs gangs being failed by police, says Home Office report

Drug dealer who trafficked children jailed


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 11, 2018)

Was he the first one to be convicted of trafficking in this way?

Only 21 himself. Fucking nuts.


----------



## purenarcotic (Nov 11, 2018)

Rutita1 said:


> Trafficking of children & 'county lines' - a new guide for professionals and lawyers working with victims of child criminal exploitation
> 
> Children caught up in drugs gangs being failed by police, says Home Office report
> 
> Drug dealer who trafficked children jailed



Aye am aware of that particular case. In comparison to the number of kids shunted through the youth offending system though there’s a long way to go innit.


----------



## Athos (Nov 11, 2018)

purenarcotic said:


> I think we need to have a better acknowledgment that young boys groomed into selling drugs / carrying weapons for gangs etc are being exploited and are victims of abuse. They are cannon fodder for grown men happy to exploit vulnerable kids. These adults are disgusting child abusers, they should be painted as such much more explicitly.



I agree with alll that.  Though it's important (in terms of not confusing or obscuring the real cause) to recognise a distinction between these cases and others where that terminology is used i.e. sexual exploitation.  The recruitment of foot soldiers to drugs gangs is largely economic conscription (for the boys) and the exploitation of labour (for the 'generals').  And, if they weren't selling drugs, those kids would be being ruthlessly exploited in precarious, minimum-wage, zero-hours, non-unionised, dead-end jobs with no hope of e.g. buying a home, or building a pension, if they were 'lucky' enough to get one.  They need to be offered a way out of both of types of exploitation that's more than aspiring to become one of the exploiters (since there'll always be more exploited people than exploiters).


----------



## GarveyLives (Nov 11, 2018)

Make of it what you will:

Tory police cuts behind wave of knife crime, says ex-Met chief (click for more)


----------



## ska invita (Nov 11, 2018)

GarveyLives said:


> Make of it what you will:
> 
> Tory police cuts behind wave of knife crime, says ex-Met chief (click for more)


I make of it police lobbying for more money for the police. There isnt a problem the police dont think can be solved by more money for the police.
Ex army generals do a good line in this too.

ETA: The police have been cut a lot, and its clear a lot of crime is going uninvestigated, even when theres plenty of evidence.


----------



## agricola (Nov 11, 2018)

ska invita said:


> I make of it police lobbying for more money for the police. There isnt a problem the police dont think can be solved by more money for the police.
> Ex army generals do a good line in this too.
> 
> ETA: The police have been cut a lot, and its clear a lot of crime is going uninvestigated, even when theres plenty of evidence.



There is certainly an aspect of that, but it really needs to be appreciated how much has actually been cut over the past ten years (and of course the process is continuing apace).  

For example, Lambeth fourteen years ago had three sub-command stations (Streatham, Brixton, Kennington) that response teams worked out of as well as several other subsidary stations (Gipsy Hill, Cavendish Road, even Clapham Road for a brief time)that had SNTs and other units - as well as a considerable number of police staff in the control room, station officers and acting as gaolers which meant that those roles didn't need to be covered by a PC for most of the time.  

First the communications staff (which at that time would have been 2 controllers and 6-8 communications officers per shift) went up to what was then Metcall, many of them left, were only partially replaced (by people on worse terms and conditions) and now their functions are covered by one controller and three communications officers (some of whom are police officers because of losses to police staff).  Then many of the subsidary stations were sold off, the sub-commands merged and followed eventually by Streatham being sold as well and Kennington closing for most of the time (and being next on the list to go, it seems).  Station officers were got rid of (either retired, took voluntary redundancy or accepted worse terms and became PCSOs - though the role has been brought back now) and the gaolers found themselves transferred to the centralized Met Detention command.  The loss of police staff was especially crippling because many of the roles they used to fill did not go away and someone (ie: a police officer) had to be found to fill them.  Meanwhile the response teams themselves went from having 2-3 Inspectors, 3-6 Sergeants and probably around 50 PCs per shift to about two thirds of that, and had to cover a wider area than before.  Now Lambeth itself is being amalgamated with Southwark, seemingly because of the recognition that borough-based policing is financially unsustainable and this is the only way the Met can deliver a similar level of service.

This has happened all over London and apparently things are even worse in the counties.  There has been an awful lot of good work and effort put into trying to improve the service that people get from the Police despite these cuts (body-worn video, the recent improvements to 101 and expanding the ways in which people can report things to name three) and many of the officers are working far more than they used to (which is not to say that they were lazy before, more that there was more of the downtime that is a healthy if not fundamental thing in any emergency service), but no organization can continue after sustaining the hits that have been recieved ever since Boris became Mayor in 2008 and the Coalition winning the 2010 GE.  Sadly the results are now becoming obvious to all.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Nov 11, 2018)

Its ok guys, the police are going to just stop and search everyone and solve knife crime.

Police in talks to scrap 'reasonable grounds' condition for stop and search


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 11, 2018)

Artaxerxes said:


> Its ok guys, the police are going to just stop and search everyone and solve knife crime.
> 
> Police in talks to scrap 'reasonable grounds' condition for stop and search


Riots next summer then


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 11, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> Riots next summer then



Presumably including those affected.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 11, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Presumably including those affected.


Let's wait and see


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 11, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> Let's wait and see



The IWCA had it right last time (and you’re basically predicting the same)

Dealing with the renegades «  IWCA national website


----------



## ska invita (Nov 11, 2018)

Artaxerxes said:


> Its ok guys, the police are going to just stop and search everyone and solve knife crime.
> 
> Police in talks to scrap 'reasonable grounds' condition for stop and search


Since when have they needed reasonable grounds? Serious question.
You fit the description, or I saw you acting suspiciously by that car you walked past seem to work without any trouble all these years


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 11, 2018)

ska invita said:


> Since when have they needed reasonable grounds? Serious question.
> You fit the description, or I saw you acting suspiciously by that car you walked past seem to work without any trouble all these years



The contention is racial profiling. So anyone who is black gets stopped and searched by virtue of being black.
But like I suggested earlier- they’re able to identify political activists and insert officers into their lives, yet don’t have the resources or political will to identify and crush the gangs. And the reason is they care far more about any threat to the status quo than they do the living conditions of working class communities.


----------



## ska invita (Nov 11, 2018)

Who employs spycops? its not the Met is it (for London)?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 11, 2018)

ska invita said:


> Who employs spycops? its not the Met is it (for London)?



Special Branch are a policing unit so yeah.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 11, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> The contention is racial profiling. So anyone who is black gets stopped and searched by virtue of being black.
> But like I suggested earlier- they’re able to identify political activists and insert officers into their lives, yet don’t have the resources or political will to identify and crush the gangs. And the reason is they care far more about any threat to the status quo than they do the living conditions of working class communities.


Given the recent revelations about the police gang matrix I think it's fair to say they can identify at least some gang members as they've thousands of people on their radar.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 11, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> Given the recent revelations about the police gang matrix I think it's fair to say they can identify at least some gang members as they've thousands of people on their radar.



Which makes it all the more obvious as to why they’re not acting on it.


----------



## ska invita (Nov 11, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> Given the recent revelations about the police gang matrix I think it's fair to say they can identify at least some gang members as they've thousands of people on their radar.


what revelations are that?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 11, 2018)

Rutita1 said:


> Fucking hell.
> 
> Lives 'put at risk' after names from secret Met gangs matrix leaked





ska invita said:


> what revelations are that?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 11, 2018)

There will be some decent intelligence in that matrix but I personally would err on the side of caution in terms of some of the associations and how they are characterised. There has been criticism before now about the description 'gang' being overused in describing what are basically aqcuaintances and not formal/organisaed involvements.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 11, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> The IWCA had it right last time (and you’re basically predicting the same)
> 
> Dealing with the renegades «  IWCA national website


People embracing a 'non-work ethic' is nothing new, mind. Plenty of that in the 1980s. Maybe I'm a bad person, but I'm more sympathetic to it than that article, which appears to be condemning people for not settling for whichever crap job they might be able to get. 

This bit in particular seems to miss a few points for me:



> a perverse pride in subverting a core socialist tenet: ‘you only take out exactly what you’ve put in’



Again, maybe I'm a bad person, but there's nothing perverse in my book about feeling good about taking a bit more than the state tells you you're entitled to when you think the state has basically fucked you over. 

I don't pretend to know much about the gang culture being referred to, so maybe the article's characterisation of it is accurate, but it reads a bit like a caricature to me.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 11, 2018)

I’m not sure how being stabbed by a gang member is different to being stabbed by a non gang member though. They are both coming from the same social malaise.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 11, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> The contention is racial profiling. So anyone who is black gets stopped and searched by virtue of being black.
> But like I suggested earlier- they’re able to identify political activists and insert officers into their lives, yet don’t have the resources or political will to identify and crush the gangs. And the reason is they care far more about any threat to the status quo than they do the living conditions of working class communities.


The police infiltration of activist groups is profoundly anti-democratic and something no police should be engaging in _at all_. Not sure it is really relevant here for that reason - the political will behind covert operations is a sinister political will, one we should oppose.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 11, 2018)

littlebabyjesus said:


> The police infiltration of activist groups is profoundly anti-democratic and something no police should be engaging in _at all_. Not sure it is really relevant here for that reason - the political will behind covert operations is a sinister political will, one we should oppose.



My point was the resources they’re willing to employ against progressive groups vs the resources that are available keeping working class communities free of and safe from harm.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 11, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> My point was the resources they’re willing to employ towards progressive groups vs the resources that are available keeping working class communities free and safe from harm.


I suspect they're happy with their allocation of resources both of which tend toward their desired end


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 11, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> My point was the resources they’re willing to employ towards progressive groups vs the resources that are available keeping working class communities free and safe from harm.


There are plenty of resources. Have you seen Britain's armed forces? The nuclear bomb? The wars Britain has engaged in over the last couple of decades? So with political will, resources can be found to do all kinds of things. That's a given, surely. But I'm not clear what you're calling for here. A series of covert operations to bring down the gangs? That sounds like something that would backfire spectacularly.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 11, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> I suspect they're happy with their allocation of resources both of which tend toward their desired end



I agree completely mate. But not everyone realises that.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 11, 2018)

littlebabyjesus said:


> There are plenty of resources. Have you seen Britain's armed forces? The nuclear bomb? The wars Britain has engaged in over the last couple of decades? So with political will, resources can be found to do all kinds of things. That's a given, surely. But I'm not clear what you're calling for here. A series of covert operations to bring down the gangs? That sounds like something that would backfire spectacularly.



I imagine people would applaud. It has to appear alongside social policies though- I agree with that.


----------



## ska invita (Nov 11, 2018)

littlebabyjesus said:


> People embracing a 'non-work ethic' is nothing new, mind. Plenty of that in the 1980s. Maybe I'm a bad person, but I'm more sympathetic to it than that article, which appears to be condemning people for not settling for whichever crap job they might be able to get.
> 
> This bit in particular seems to miss a few points for me:
> 
> ...


yeah it doesnt read right on a few points.

how about this


> well over 50 teen murders in London alone in two years and counting. That there is nothing similar in working class culture in the past half century to match this level of pathology cannot be ignored. The razor gangs, teddy boys, mods and rockers, punks and skinheads, and football hooligans did not come close.


the age has come down but the scale hasn't at all... the age coming down thing i think thats part of the pulling up of the economic ladder on this generation and the weird culture we have here relating to children in general.

Maybe this isnt the right moment to bring this up but the national culture doesnt value children and young people. Students and  mums with prams are open insults. Children crying or playing loudly is a social crime. the difference between attitudes in the UK and mainland Europe is enormous. More widely if your not in employment British culture doesnt value you...im sure there are deep historic roots to it.

There's a good point within this somewhere but im feeling tired to make it properly.



> Which suggests that the type of individuals being steadily immersed into the gang culture are themselves the product of a new social formation. Instead of being the representative of alienated working class youth as portrayed especially in liberal and right wing circles, the leaders and opinion formers are more often than not the progeny of the ‘fallen idle’ – a renegade section of the working class that has learned to embrace the ‘no-work ethic’.


have i understood that right, its saying the kids in gangs come from the homes of the 'fallen idol'. what a slur on the parents - its just outright wrong that in many cases. Reads like the Daily Mail. Lots of the parents will be working their arses off and thats even part of the problem.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 11, 2018)

Did I just imagine that Britain in general, and London in particular, has a long history of violent gang culture? 

Knife crime in London is up in the last couple of years, but only back to levels that existed as recently as 5 years ago. There is more than a whiff of moral panic around some of this.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 11, 2018)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Did I just imagine that Britain in general, and London in particular, has a long history of violent gang culture?
> 
> Knife crime in London is up in the last couple of years, but only back to levels that existed as recently as 5 years ago. There is more than a whiff of moral panic around some of this.



I’m not sure what use the argument is of it being a ‘new’ thing. Almost like it doesn’t matter if we can trace it back. 
Kids dying is actually just preserved heritage.


----------



## ska invita (Nov 11, 2018)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Did I just imagine that Britain in general, and London in particular, has a long history of violent gang culture?
> 
> Knife crime in London is up in the last couple of years, but only back to levels that existed as recently as 5 years ago. There is more than a whiff of moral panic around some of this.


upthread weve got figures going back to the 80s

though it doesnt show the age of attackers and victims

that is a spike of 50% in 2 years though in graph above


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 11, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I’m not sure what use the argument is of it being a ‘new’ thing. Almost like it doesn’t matter if we can trace it back.
> Kids dying is actually just preserved heritage.


No, but a lot of the coverage I've read has spoken of this as if it were new. Yes, the trends are worrying, but London isn't suddenly a completely different place. It appears much the same to me, just with a bit of added violence due to the shitfest that is austerity.


----------



## ska invita (Nov 11, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I’m not sure what use the argument is of it being a ‘new’ thing. Almost like it doesn’t matter if we can trace it back.
> Kids dying is actually just preserved heritage.


id like to think its like a #metoo enough is enough moment. would be good if so. so long as it doesnt lead to a watershed moment of just MORE POLICE NOW


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 11, 2018)

ska invita said:


> id like to the its like a #metoo enough is enough moment. would be good if so. so long as it doesnt lead to a watershed moment of just MORE POLICE NOW


No one's going to offer more police now, it's ok


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 11, 2018)

I’m against MORE POLICE NOW.
But that’s easy enough for me to say given it isn’t my child being slaughtered.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 11, 2018)

littlebabyjesus said:


> No, but a lot of the coverage I've read has spoken of this as if it were new. Yes, the trends are worrying, but London isn't suddenly a completely different place. It appears much the same to me, just with a bit of added violence due to the shitfest that is austerity.


You might have observed that surgeons are reporting that stabbing incidents now feature multiple stab wounds more frequently than they used to, the attacks are more severe than they used to be.


----------



## A380 (Nov 11, 2018)

agricola said:


> There is certainly an aspect of that, but it really needs to be appreciated how much has actually been cut over the past ten years (and of course the process is continuing apace).
> 
> For example, Lambeth fourteen years ago had three sub-command stations (Streatham, Brixton, Kennington) that response teams worked out of as well as several other subsidary stations (Gipsy Hill, Cavendish Road, even Clapham Road for a brief time)that had SNTs and other units - as well as a considerable number of police staff in the control room, station officers and acting as gaolers which meant that those roles didn't need to be covered by a PC for most of the time.
> 
> ...


Even worse in the counties. Pick any unitary authority, or borough and it’s almost certain there will be more people working in the McDonalds in that area than police officers / PCSOs responding to incidents and working in local teams. This is probably true for places that don’t have McDonalds.

The county line phenomenon is partly down to this vacuum. The level of violence in smalker towns between people involved in the drug trade, and the levels of force to keep the local people they are cuckooing in line has increased almost exponentially in the last five or so years.

A perfect storm of the cuts the rest of the public sector faced and Cameron’s personal vendetta for having his first forray into politics scupperd. (Pig fucker...)


----------



## stuff_it (Nov 12, 2018)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Did I just imagine that Britain in general, and London in particular, has a long history of violent gang culture?
> 
> Knife crime in London is up in the last couple of years, but only back to levels that existed as recently as 5 years ago. There is more than a whiff of moral panic around some of this.


Two points about this graph -


There's no mention of age ranges involved, or changes in the age ranges involved

What counts as 'knife crime' for the purposes of these figures? People injured/killed? People who reported being threatened with a knife? People caught carrying?



Pickman's model said:


> You might have observed that surgeons are reporting that stabbing incidents now feature multiple stab wounds more frequently than they used to, the attacks are more severe than they used to be.


Another thing the graph doesn't mention.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 12, 2018)

stuff_it said:


> Another thing the graph doesn't mention.


And why should it? It is a reflection of the number of incidents reported to police, not the number of stab wounds discovered by doctors


----------



## stuff_it (Nov 12, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> And why should it? It is a reflection of the number of incidents reported to police, not the number of stab wounds discovered by doctors



It would be nice to have one that did is all.


----------



## A380 (Nov 12, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> And why should it? It is a reflection of the number of incidents reported to police, not the number of stab wounds discovered by doctors


A&E data is normally perceived a better indicator for soundings and other serious assaults. But, for some strange reason, it’s not normay collected and published nationally.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 12, 2018)

A380 said:


> A&E data is normally perceived a better indicator for soundings and other serious assaults. But, for some strange reason, it’s not normay collected and published nationally.


Also a lot easier to just ask the cops to use the five bar gate to count the number of incidents reported to them


----------



## A380 (Nov 12, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> Also a lot easier to just ask the cops to use the five bar gate to count the number of incidents reported to them


If only... the many and constantly changing  filters between the street and published crime stats make that less than reliable. Besides for some strange reasons quite a lot of people who’ve been  stabbed don’t fancy a chat with their local constabulary.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 12, 2018)

A380 said:


> If only... the many and constantly changing  filters between the street and published crime stats make that less than reliable. Besides for some strange reasons quite a lot of people who’ve been  stabbed don’t fancy a chat with their local constabulary.


Didn't say better, just easier, more expedient


----------



## A380 (Nov 12, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> Didn't say better, just easier, more expedient


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 12, 2018)

A380 said:


> View attachment 152294 View attachment 152294 View attachment 152294


Don't give them ideas


----------



## Athos (Nov 12, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I’m not sure what use the argument is of it being a ‘new’ thing. Almost like it doesn’t matter if we can trace it back.
> Kids dying is actually just preserved heritage.



Surely the issue is why it has been catapulted back to the top of the news agenda.  The cynic in me suspects that the Tories will soon need a lot of support from the right (who might otherwise be attracted to e.g. UKIP), and that an increasingly authoritarian approach (stop and search) to the problem of knife crime (a proxy for social problems caused by black people) might be convenient.


----------



## Winot (Nov 12, 2018)

Police seek power to stop and search when their grounds for suspicion are unreasonable:

Police in talks to scrap 'reasonable grounds' condition for stop and search


----------



## Athos (Nov 12, 2018)

Winot said:


> Police seek power to stop and search when their grounds for suspicion are unreasonable:
> 
> Police in talks to scrap 'reasonable grounds' condition for stop and search



As is the current requirement for reasonable grounds restrains them!  He smelled of cannabis, appeared to throw/swallow something, was nervous of my approach, saw us and changed his route etc., etc.


----------



## Winot (Nov 12, 2018)

Athos said:


> As is the current requirement for reasonable grounds restrains them!  He smelled of cannabis, appeared to throw/swallow something, was nervous of my approach, saw us and changed his route etc., etc.


----------



## Dogsauce (Nov 12, 2018)

The ‘moral panic’ is amplified by papers like the Standard to have a dig at Khan, for obvious reasons. Not that there isn’t a problem. 

Wasn’t there also some transparently insincere banners/statements at the alt right Khan balloon bollocks about him being responsible for rising knife crime? (And how this should be a priority for him rather than insulting trump or whatever?).


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 12, 2018)

Athos said:


> Surely the issue is why it has been catapulted back to the top of the news agenda.  The cynic in me suspects that the Tories will soon need a lot of support from the right (who might otherwise be attracted to e.g. UKIP), and that an increasingly authoritarian approach (stop and search) to the problem of knife crime (a proxy for social problems caused by black people) might be convenient.


Yep. Whether or not they created it this is how they will use it. And to repeat violent crime in NY has fallen sharply since the ending of its racist stop and search policy.  Even conservative commentators admit they were wrong on the issue. Yet now we have calls to extend it here.


----------



## Edie (Nov 12, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> The IWCA had it right last time (and you’re basically predicting the same)
> 
> Dealing with the renegades «  IWCA national website


Thats really excellent. One of the sticking points for me has always been having a problem with people who have a non-work ethic, basically the bloody idle, and the problems they bring to communities. That attitude of entitlement is divisive and it breeds anti social crime, and the sooner it’s called out and not tolerated the better.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 12, 2018)

...I haven't read that article yet but will today...I suppose I am hoping the author hasn't over looked the fact that when there is no access to education, training or employment young people may appear like they don't have a _work ethic_. Also, drug dealing is a form of working, even if it isn't the kind of work we want people to be doing.

I wonder how many places there are in this country where there is adequate provision of education/training/apprenticeships/jobs and young people are basically saying nah, fuck that, I prefer crime! That certainly isn't happening in London...Perhaps someone can tell me where that is happening?


----------



## GarveyLives (Nov 12, 2018)




----------



## ska invita (Nov 12, 2018)

Someone was asking earlier about knife hospital admission stats





Knife-related hospital admissions rise

This group Redthread  do really good work intervening with young people admitted to (primarily) south london hospitals....seeing it as a moment of possible intervention in their lives when they are away from their peer group and might be going through a bit of existential angst having been hospitalised.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 12, 2018)

Edie said:


> Thats really excellent. One of the sticking points for me has always been having a problem with people who have a non-work ethic, basically the bloody idle, and the problems they bring to communities. That attitude of entitlement is divisive and it breeds anti social crime, and the sooner it’s called out and not tolerated the better.


When you say non-work do you mean an aversion to paid toil or an aversion to doing something useful? The two are very different. Anyway you meet lots of employed people with a non-work ethic, however you want to define it.


----------



## A380 (Nov 12, 2018)

Winot said:


> Police seek power to stop and search when their grounds for suspicion are unreasonable:
> 
> Police in talks to scrap 'reasonable grounds' condition for stop and search


Never going to happen.


----------



## Edie (Nov 12, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> When you say non-work do you mean an aversion to paid toil or an aversion to doing something useful? The two are very different. Anyway you meet lots of employed people with a non-work ethic, however you want to define it.


I mean earning a living. Grafting.


----------



## ska invita (Nov 12, 2018)

A380 said:


> Never going to happen.


One of the heads of police was on the news saying just that today and suggesting the press have got carried away with themselves


----------



## A380 (Nov 12, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> When you say non-work do you mean an aversion to paid toil or an aversion to doing something useful? The two are very different. Anyway you meet lots of employed people with a non-work ethic, however you want to define it.


I’ve been working for thirty five years now, made an ok success at a few jobs and I’m a right lazy fucker.


----------



## mojo pixy (Nov 12, 2018)

.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 12, 2018)

If there aren’t  enough jobs (and there aren’t) then those at the sharp end of that (I’ve been there myself) should organise against that, rather than simply becoming dealers and making things worse for everyone else. Work ethic can mean alsorts. Unpaid community work for the benefit of all rather than becoming the dark underside to Thatcherite dreams.


----------



## mojo pixy (Nov 12, 2018)

I hate to state the glaringly obvious, but there's money in dealing drugs that there isn't in social enterprise. That's why it's hard to know where to begin.

Bank robbery might unite communities but it'd take a brave leader to say so.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 12, 2018)

I come from an area of the country where de-industrialisation had (and continues to have) a massive impact on prospects and employment. If only we’d all decided to be drug dealers and pimps! At least some on here, who didn’t live there, would have had our backs.


----------



## Humberto (Nov 13, 2018)

What we are, or should be talking about, is reasons for children and young adults joining gangs and having a lifestyle that directs them towards danger. In a society that deports Windrush immigrants we should remember. Drug dealers and pimps is one thing, work ethic another. You can't write off people that age as some kind of societal parasite. Its lack of choice, not choices lacking in 'decency'/'moral fibre'. It starts with, or at least a crucial factor is in my opinion, inequality. It glaringly bad in London in particular.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 13, 2018)

I can’t disagree with that, lack of economic opportunity is obviously a factor. But that said, we can’t simply use that as apologism: there’s people suffering the dual effects of low prospects AND gang violence. Our solidarity should be with them.


----------



## Celyn (Nov 13, 2018)

People who have a "work ethic" can cause problems too. And people without a paid job often do constructive and socially useful things.

I'm sure Harold Shipman had a "work ethic". Likewise Jimmy Savile. The guys burning a model of Grenfell tower were mostly gainfully employed, as were those child abuse guys in Rotherham.


----------



## LiamO (Nov 13, 2018)

Celyn said:


> People who have a "work ethic" can cause problems too. And people without a paid job often do constructive and socially useful things.
> 
> I'm sure Harold Shipman had a "work ethic". Likewise Jimmy Savile. The guys burning a mode of Grenfell tower were mostly gainfully employed, as were those child abuse guys in Rotherham.



Multiple "Likes". Top post.


----------



## A380 (Nov 13, 2018)

I’m with the German First World War General Kurt  von Hammerstein-Equord ; both on his opposition to the Nazi’s and this:

“I divide my officers into four groups. There are clever, diligent, stupid, and lazy officers. Usually two characteristics are combined.

Some are clever and diligent -- their place is the General Staff.

The next lot are stupid and lazy -- they make up 90 percent of every army and are suited to routine duties.

Anyone who is both clever and lazy is qualified for the highest leadership duties, because he possesses the intellectual clarity and the composure necessary for difficult decisions.

One must beware of anyone who is stupid and diligent -- he must not be entrusted with any responsibility because he will always cause only mischief.”


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 13, 2018)

Celyn said:


> People who have a "work ethic" can cause problems too. And people without a paid job often do constructive and socially useful things.
> 
> I'm sure Harold Shipman had a "work ethic". Likewise Jimmy Savile. The guys burning a model of Grenfell tower were mostly gainfully employed, as were those child abuse guys in Rotherham.


The late rev Ian Kyle Paisley most certainly had a work ethic, as do most politicians and I think I can say without fear of contradiction that people like Ian Duncan Smith have wreaked far more havoc on communities up and down the land than out of work idle people.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 13, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> If there aren’t  enough jobs (and there aren’t) then those at the sharp end of that (I’ve been there myself) should organise against that, rather than simply becoming dealers and making things worse for everyone else. Work ethic can mean alsorts. Unpaid community work for the benefit of all rather than becoming the dark underside to Thatcherite dreams.



'Simply becoming dealers' Is that what's happening then? Your rose spectacled rant doesn't seem to factor in the fact that people need money to live/survive. Many young people who end up in gangs or turn to crime are not in education/training/work, perhaps you can tell me how volunteering is gonna help them live and where all these volunteering opportunities are for the types of socially excluded individuals we are discussing here.



Magnus McGinty said:


> I come from an area of the country where de-industrialisation had (and continues to have) a massive impact on prospects and employment. If only we’d all decided to be drug dealers and pimps! At least some on here, who didn’t live there, would have had our backs.



I notice you don't name the utopia from which you hail. I can only imagine that is because it is world famous for it's social cohesion, youth mentorship programs, lack or crime etc. Can you also link to these thriving youth led movements that are challenging the lack of prospects/jobs too so we can all see where your informaed advice above comes from?

Moreover, who are this 'we' you are factoring yourself into and excluding others from? And who are you talking about as '_all_ drug dealers and pimps'? 




Magnus McGinty said:


> I can’t disagree with that, lack of economic opportunity is obviously a factor. But that said, we can’t simply use that as apologism: there’s people suffering the dual effects of low prospects AND gang violence. Our solidarity should be with them.



No one here is apologising for anything of the bloody sort. Also, again your logic fails to acknowledge that very often those suffering the dual effects of low prospects and gang violence are the very people caught up in and participating in it. If only the world was as simple as you make out, where victims and perps could be so easily distinguished between.

I really hope you were drunk last night. The cack you come out with belongs to red faced arseholes on QT.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 13, 2018)

Humberto said:


> What we are, or should be talking about, is reasons for children and young adults joining gangs and having a lifestyle that directs them towards danger. In a society that deports Windrush immigrants we should remember. Drug dealers and pimps is one thing, work ethic another. You can't write off people that age as some kind of societal parasite. Its lack of choice, not choices lacking in 'decency'/'moral fibre'. It starts with, or at least a crucial factor is in my opinion, inequality. It glaringly bad in London in particular.


Sure many dealers and pimps have a work ethic


----------



## Athos (Nov 13, 2018)

A lot of people on this thread confusing individual 'choices' (judged from a 'moral' perspective) with structural issues.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 13, 2018)

Celyn said:


> I'm sure Harold Shipman had a "work ethic". Likewise Jimmy Savile.



Slightly disturbing that you use a doctor who murdered his patients and a Children’s TV personality that preyed on kids as examples of having a work ethic.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Nov 13, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> Sure many dealers and pimps have a work ethic



pimpin' ain't easy.


----------



## ElizabethofYork (Nov 13, 2018)

A380 said:


> I’ve been working for thirty five years now, made an ok success at a few jobs and I’m a right lazy fucker.



Same here except I haven't really made a success of any of my jobs.  I do _just enough_.  Not a jot more.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 13, 2018)

Jeff Robinson said:


> pimpin' ain't easy.


yeh, you need to be able to recruit and motivate your workforce in what may not always be the easiest of circumstances


----------



## Celyn (Nov 13, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Slightly disturbing that you use a doctor who murdered his patients and a Children’s TV personality that preyed on kids as examples of having a work ethic.


Well, they weren't "bloody idle".   .  Kept themselves busy, sadly.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 14, 2018)

In Birmingham a group has been set up called ‘We Stand Determined’. This is a community ‘vigilante’ group that will operate where the community feels under attack rather than where the police direct them. At present the group say they aren’t anti police but note that the police are incapable of tackling violent anti social behaviour. Self defence will be taught and patrols are being mounted. Over 400 people have signed up in 3 weeks according to this:

Over 400 people join Brum vigilante group to protect streets


----------



## andysays (Nov 15, 2018)

Smokeandsteam said:


> In Birmingham a group has been set up called ‘We Stand Determined’. This is a community ‘vigilante’ group that will operate where the community feels under attack rather than where the police direct them. At present the group say they aren’t anti police but note that the police are incapable of tackling violent anti social behaviour. Self defence will be taught and patrols are being mounted. Over 400 people have signed up in 3 weeks according to this:
> 
> Over 400 people join Brum vigilante group to protect streets


Are you involved with group?

I notice the names of the organisers are Wayne, Tracy and Michael. Do you think they represent the whole community, or just a particular section of it?


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 15, 2018)

andysays said:


> Are you involved with group?
> 
> I notice the names of the organisers are Wayne, Tracy and Michael. Do you think they represent the whole community, or just a particular section of it?



No. I’m in the process of finding out more about it and it’s aims and if members of any political group are prominent - we can, of course, rule the ‘left’ out of that line of inquiry. 

I’m not sure what your point about the names of the organisers is. What would you like them to be?


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 15, 2018)

Smokeandsteam said:


> In Birmingham a group has been set up called ‘We Stand Determined’. This is a community ‘vigilante’ group that will operate where the community feels under attack rather than where the police direct them. At present the group say they aren’t anti police but note that the police are incapable of tackling violent anti social behaviour. Self defence will be taught and patrols are being mounted. Over 400 people have signed up in 3 weeks according to this:
> 
> Over 400 people join Brum vigilante group to protect streets


Have they taken out any form of insurance?


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 15, 2018)

Smokeandsteam said:


> In Birmingham a group has been set up called ‘We Stand Determined’. This is a community ‘vigilante’ group that will operate where the community feels under attack rather than where the police direct them. At present the group say they aren’t anti police but note that the police are incapable of tackling violent anti social behaviour. Self defence will be taught and patrols are being mounted. Over 400 people have signed up in 3 weeks according to this:
> 
> Over 400 people join Brum vigilante group to protect streets


Self defence. Grand. And legal training? This will end in tears and possible jail time or penury.


----------



## ElizabethofYork (Nov 15, 2018)

Smokeandsteam said:


> No. I’m in the process of finding out more about it and it’s aims and if members of any political group are prominent - we can, of course, rule the ‘left’ out of that line of inquiry.
> 
> I’m not sure what your point about the names of the organisers is. What would you like them to be?



Tarquin, Lavender and Benedict.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 15, 2018)

ElizabethofYork said:


> Tarquin, Lavender and Benedict.


Charles Philip Arthur George


----------



## hammerntongues (Nov 15, 2018)

I also think when things become normalised the fear diminishes , what to the majority would seem a crazy dangerous life just becomes LIFE , many of us would not even venture outside our front doors if there was a genuine threat of being stabbed but to a lot of these these guys its just normal . I would even go as far to say that they enjoy it , the thrill and danger , the bragging about it and the reputations gained . To get young guys , which the majority are , to give up something they enjoy is a tough ask  . I revert back to football violence of the 80`s which has many similarities , it wont be the intervention of the government or the forces of law that halt the progression of violence  it has to be a cultural change .  I am not suggesting dishing out Es by the handful but it might help .


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 15, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> Self defence. Grand. And legal training? This will end in tears and possible jail time or penury.



You’ve conflated things. As I understand it the self defence training isn’t for the residents patrols. At the moment they call the police to report crime. 

Of course you are right, there are risks with this type of activity - from the cops who don’t like being exposed as essentially anti community and not very interested in this type of crime and the areas in which it is committed, as well as initially from those not used to being challenged. How the group think these challenges through and if and how it addresses them will decide if this fizzles out or not. They are now reporting over 1,000 people wanting to get involved in community patrols.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 15, 2018)

Smokeandsteam said:


> You’ve conflated things. As I understand it the self defence training isn’t for the residents patrols. At the moment they call the police to report crime.
> 
> Of course you are right, there are risks with this type of activity - from the cops who don’t like being exposed as essentially anti community and not very interested in this type of crime and the areas in which it is committed, as well as initially from those not used to being challenged. How the group think these challenges through and if and how it addresses them will decide if this fizzles out or not. They are now reporting over 1,000 people wanting to get involved in community patrols.


Yeh stupid me I've conflated things  still at least I'm not stupid enough to recruit people for vigilante patrols and send them out without some legal training or insurance. Do you know the law on citizen's arrests or assault? I'd have hoped there'd be some basic screening of volunteers so no obvious bias against 'ethnics' or 'coloureds' or whatnot slipped through. How long before this comes a cropper? Weeks? Months? Days?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 15, 2018)

Smokeandsteam said:


> At the moment they call the police to report crime.



You can definitely rule out left involvement then on top of telling you not to do anything as you don’t have the right training.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 15, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> You can definitely rule out left involvement then on top of telling you not to do anything as you don’t have the right training.


Yeh you'd have people go on the streets without training and then when they're nicked for assault for fucking up a citizen's arrest you'd leave them high and dry


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 15, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> Yeh stupid me I've conflated things  still at least I'm not stupid enough to recruit people for vigilante patrols and send them out without some legal training or insurance. Do you know the law on citizen's arrests or assault? I'd have hoped there'd be some basic screening of volunteers so no obvious bias against 'ethnics' or 'coloureds' or whatnot slipped through. How long before this comes a cropper? Weeks? Months? Days?



If this is a genuine community initiative, as it appears to be, then it is likely that these types of issues won’t have been considered. I don’t know however, perhaps they have been. I’ve already said I’m keen to learn more about the group and it’s organsiers.

What I do know if that mistakes will inevitably be made. Of course, there will be a learning curve. And, there will come a point where political questions will need to be confronted.

I’m glad I posted on here - already it’s been attacked because of the ‘names’ of the organisers, received veiled accusations of racism and suggestions that the group should seek legal advice before getting involved in their own community. Telling.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 15, 2018)

Smokeandsteam said:


> If this is a genuine community initiative, as it appears to be, then it is likely that these types of issues won’t have been considered. I don’t know however, perhaps they have been. I’ve alresy said I’m keen to learn more about the group and it’s organsiers.
> 
> What I do know if that mistakes will inevitably be made. Of course, there will be a learning curve. And, there will come a point where political questions will need to be confronted.
> 
> I’m glad I posted on here - already it’s been attacked because of the ‘names’ of the organisers, received veiled accusations of racism and suggestions that the group should seek legal advice before getting involved in their own community.


if as i suspect you're referring to my post above about screening as a veiled accusation of racism, you're wrong. we already have a racist force patrolling the streets of birmingham and other cities, and we certainly don't need another - hence my hope that there'd be some sort of basic interview to among other things ascertain legal knowledge and to try to avoid certain pitfalls like including people who are racist.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 15, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> if as i suspect you're referring to my post above about screening as a veiled accusation of racism, you're wrong. we already have a racist force patrolling the streets of birmingham and other cities, and we certainly don't need another - hence my hope that there'd be some sort of basic interview to among other things ascertain legal knowledge and to try to avoid certain pitfalls like including people who are racist.



Before self styled experts pile in and start telling others what to do and/or leaping to conclusions without any evidence whatsoever, a better approach might be to find out some basic facts about the group and, if it’s legit, to offer some supportive advice based on past experience as and when the time is right.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 15, 2018)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Before self styled experts pile in


i haven't styled myself an expert. 





> and start telling others what to do and/or leaping to conclusions without any evidence whatsoever, a better approach might be to find out some basic facts about the group and, if it’s legit, to offer some supportive advice based on past experience as and when the time is right.


i think pointing out the need for insurance, screening and appropriate legal training is supportive. and the time's right now, before it all goes tits up because no one's pointed these things out.


----------



## andysays (Nov 15, 2018)

Smokeandsteam said:


> No. I’m in the process of finding out more about it and it’s aims and if members of any political group are prominent - we can, of course, rule the ‘left’ out of that line of inquiry.
> 
> I’m not sure what your point about the names of the organisers is. What would you like them to be?


I don't have a problem with the names of the organisers, but if they are to represent the whole community, I would hope that at least some of the 400 members have names like Ahmed and Ayesha.

And I was asking if you were involved because if you were you might be able to give us more info.

Maybe you can let us know more about the make up of the group once you've found out yourself.


----------



## andysays (Nov 15, 2018)

Smokeandsteam said:


> If this is a genuine community initiative, as it appears to be, then it is likely that these types of issues won’t have been considered. I don’t know however, perhaps they have been. I’ve already said I’m keen to learn more about the group and it’s organsiers.
> 
> What I do know if that mistakes will inevitably be made. Of course, there will be a learning curve. And, there will come a point where political questions will need to be confronted.
> 
> I’m glad I posted on here - already it’s been attacked because of the ‘names’ of the organisers, received veiled accusations of racism and suggestions that the group should seek legal advice before getting involved in their own community. Telling.


To be clear, I wasn't attacking anything or anyone, I was asking what I consider to be an important question.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 15, 2018)

I wonder how many Ahmeds and Ayeshas we have here on Urban.


----------



## DotCommunist (Nov 15, 2018)

metro article headline '400 hundred join vigilante mob'

Nearly 400 join Birmingham vigilante mob We Stand Determined after losing trust in police | Metro News


the headline is very judgy there, that choice of words.


----------



## andysays (Nov 15, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I wonder how many Ahmeds and Ayeshas we have here on Urban.


As far as I'm aware, Urban isn't involved in self-titled vigilante crime fighting action or claiming to represent a whole community,  though there may be threads in the Brixton forum I've missed.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 15, 2018)

andysays said:


> As far as I'm aware, Urban isn't involved in self-titled vigilante crime fighting action or claiming to represent a whole community,  though there may be threads in the Brixton forum I've missed.


there's dozens in the dulwich hamlets forum, it's a hotbed of community crime fighting


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 15, 2018)

andysays said:


> As far as I'm aware, Urban isn't involved in self-titled vigilante crime fighting action or claiming to represent a whole community,  though there may be threads in the Brixton forum I've missed.



Perhaps you could draft up a constitution including a clause outlining the correct ethic quotas.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 15, 2018)

andysays said:


> I don't have a problem with the names of the organisers, but if they are to represent the whole community, I would hope that at least some of the 400 members have names like Ahmed and Ayesha.
> 
> And I was asking if you were involved because if you were you might be able to give us more info.
> 
> Maybe you can let us know more about the make up of the group once you've found out yourself.



I've already said I'm not involved. I found out about the group via social media. 

However, this morning I have taken steps to find out a bit more about the organisers and check if there is any political group involved. The initial indications are that this is a genuine community initiative, albeit one that has snowballed from one estate into something much bigger after the press locally picked up on it. As such, the organisers are now having to do some thinking about what they want to do next. So an important point. 

To date the activity has been small stuff limited to escorting vulnerable residents upon request as they go about the estate and occupation of space by the community. Already, the cops are showing a negative interest. Positive signs. Less positively the organisers allegedly want funding from local business to build the group and fund activity. However, at this point they should be afforded the benefit of the doubt as I am told that for all of them this is the first 'political' activity for any of them.	 

At present, and inevitably, all sorts of detritus is sniffing about given the levels of interest and support -like our old pals the bearded bros (who ran the botched scabbing operation during the bins strike last year). 

It is likely that a public meeting will be called shortly possibly in Stechford I am told.


----------



## andysays (Nov 15, 2018)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I've already said I'm not involved. I found out about the group via social media.
> 
> However, this morning I have taken steps to find out a bit more about the organisers and check if there is any political group involved. The initial indications are that this is a genuine community initiative, albeit one that has snowballed from one estate into something much bigger after the press locally picked up on it. As such, the organisers are now having to do some thinking about what they want to do next. So an important point.
> 
> ...


Fair enough. I am genuinely interested in hearing more as you discover more.

But as a general point, simply calling yourselves a community group doesn't mean you represent the whole community, and if you're deliberately calling yourselves a vigilante group, I think you need to make extra sure you can't be mistaken for representing only one part of the community.


----------



## andysays (Nov 15, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Perhaps you could draft up a constitution including a clause outlining the correct ethic quotas.


Perhaps you could fuck off deliberately distorting what others are saying


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 15, 2018)

Perhaps MM could finally tell us about the utopia from which he hails and link us to how 'his' community do things. From the way he posts he certainly has it all worked out. I am puzzled why he won't provide more details tbh. Sharing is caring afterall.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 15, 2018)

Do you think you’ve caught me out or something? I simply got tired of that line of discussion so withdrew in order to keep the thread on track.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 15, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Do you think you’ve caught me out or something? I simply got tired of that line of discussion so withdrew in order to keep the thread on track.



You mean you couldn't back up the silly boasts you made, nor justify the absolute cack you posted so chose to ignore the questions you were asked hoping people would forget. Yes, we know.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 15, 2018)

Rutita1 said:


> You mean you couldn't back up the silly boasts you made, nor justify the absolute cack you posted so chose to ignore the questions you were asked hoping people would forget. Yes, we know.



No, I mean I didn’t even read your post as I find discussing anything with you draining.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 15, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> No, I mean I didn’t even read your post as I find discussing anything with you draining.



Oh...cutting. Ouch! 

Convenient way to avoid backing up lies and nonsense. 

At least you are not claiming to be joking this time.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 15, 2018)

At least you’ve decided I’m being truthful now.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 15, 2018)

Nah,  we both know that isn't likely.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 15, 2018)

andysays said:


> But as a general point, simply calling yourselves a community group doesn't mean you represent the whole community, and if you're deliberately calling yourselves a vigilante group, I think you need to make extra sure you can't be mistaken for representing only one part of the community.



I think at present managing the interest and deciding what to do next is their focus. They have seen a very concentrated local initiative attract massive attention and have been inundated with support - positive and otherwise. They need to carefully think through the next steps. I'm really not sure what else I can add at this point other than to say you've made this point previously and that I have said that as far as I know this isn't the case.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 15, 2018)

Smokeandsteam said:


> They have seen a very concentrated local initiative attract massive attention and have been inundated with support - positive and otherwise.




both positive and negative support


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 15, 2018)

8ball said:


> Yeah, it means knives are more likely to be stashed rather than carried, while the targeting of stop and search generates more alienation and resentment.



There's a lot of stashing around Tulse Hill, that I see. I try to do my bit by going out with my litter grabber in the early hours, picking up stuff from under bushes etc and binning it in the nearest dumpster. Kids just go and shoplift another cheap kitchen knife from Morleys, though, so it's kind of never-ending.

The solutions to these problems aren't simple. Most important of all, we need decent community support systems in place, so struggling parents can be supported by their peers, whether that's regarding parenting, budgeting or whatever. Also important is to impress upon kids that fighting each other only benefits the state. A dead working class kid is just one fewer potential dole claimant, as far as the state is concerned.
It's all very well to talk about getting more police out there, but unless the pattern of policing in multicultural areas is changed radically, then criminalisation of black youth will continue, and the cycle of social ills caused by racist policing practices will continue too.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 15, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Maybe the police could work WITH those communities in getting this shit sorted? It’s like there’s a decision between no policing or racial profiling stop and search with no sensible options in between.



There are very few options in between, currently. Across London "Safer Neighbourhood" teams have seen staffing levels reduced by an average of two thirds, so the intelligence led and on the doorstep policing that helped attenuate and/or ameliorate poverty related problems, has been flushed down the shitter, and we're back to the nostrums of Michael Howard and Margaret Thatcher: Toughness on crime, with no regard to the causes. For the state, stop and search is the only feasible policy, because it's not middle class white kids/their kids being affected.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 15, 2018)

ViolentPanda said:


> There are very few options in between, currently. Across London "Safer Neighbourhood" teams have seen staffing levels reduced by an average of two thirds, so the intelligence led and on the doorstep policing that helped attenuate and/or ameliorate poverty related problems, has been flushed down the shitter, and we're back to the nostrums of Michael Howard and Margaret Thatcher: Toughness on crime, with no regard to the causes. For the state, stop and search is the only feasible policy, because it's not middle class white kids/their kids being affected.



Conversely, White liberals argue the opposite and it’s not their kids being murdered. It’s almost like the deaths are preferable to people being searched.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 15, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> No. I’m making it all up. Really I went to private school in North London and studied acting.


I knew it, you Jude Law cunt!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 15, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Conversely, White liberals argue the opposite and it’s not their kids being murdered. It’s almost like the deaths are preferable to people being searched.


Don't be a tit. What's preferable would be no deaths, therefore no S60 notices. If you absolutely have to have stop and search though, is it too much to ask that the people doing the stopping deracialise their practice's, so that we don't get the further perpetuation of bogus criminalisation of black youths? For every knife happy youth that gets righteously nicked, two or three straight kids get nicked too. We've had decades of this shit. You'd have thought that even the morons manning the Home Office would have worked out that racial profiling is worthless and discriminatory.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 15, 2018)

ViolentPanda said:


> Don't be a tit. What's preferable would be no deaths, therefore no S60 notices. If you absolutely have to have stop and search though, is it too much to ask that the people doing the stopping deracialise their practice's, so that we don't get the further perpetuation of bogus criminalisation of black youths? For every knife happy youth that gets righteously nicked, two or three straight kids get nicked too. We've had decades of this shit. You'd have thought that even the morons manning the Home Office would have worked out that racial profiling is worthless and discriminatory.



You obviously didn’t read my earlier post properly (which you quoted) where I said there should be a middle ground between feeling everyone’s collar and doing very little to prevent it.
It’s funny that policing is thrown out of the window yet community action has also been sneered at on this thread.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 15, 2018)

Don’t do heavy policing - it’s racist.
Don’t do community action - it’s racist.

*black kids continue to die*


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 15, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Don’t do heavy policing - it’s racist.
> Don’t do community action - it’s racist.
> 
> *black kids continue to die*



What do you care? You characterised them as all 'pimps and drug dealers' the other night.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 15, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Conversely, White liberals argue the opposite and it’s not their kids being murdered. It’s almost like the deaths are preferable to people being searched.


You did see the thing I posted about New York's experience with stop and search, yes? You have read various posters' objections to the idea of black kids being targetted for being black by racist stop and search policies, and the disastrous effect this has? One very simple thing the Met could do right now to help the situation would be to end its stop and search policy - unless they suspect someone of a specific crime, they leave everyone alone. Read up on what's happened in NY since they were forced by a court to end stop and search, or stop and frisk as they called it. It's part of the problem here, not part of the solution, just as it was in New York.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 15, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Don’t do heavy policing - it’s racist.
> Don’t do community action - it’s racist.
> 
> *black kids continue to die*


Heavy policing is stupid because it alienates lots of people with very little in the way of results.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 15, 2018)

Rutita1 said:


> What do you care? You characterised them as all 'pimps and drug dealers' the other night.



I’d be surprised if I had written off all black kids as pimps and drug dealers. If I talk about pimps and drug dealers I mean pimps and drug dealers.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 15, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> Heavy policing is stupid because it alienates lots of people with very little in the way of results.



I obviously mean intelligence led rather than racial profiling.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 15, 2018)

littlebabyjesus said:


> You did see the thing I posted about New York's experience with stop and search, yes? You have read various posters' objections to the idea of black kids being targetted for being black by racist stop and search policies, and the disastrous effect this has? One very simple thing the Met could do right now to help the situation would be to end its stop and search policy - unless they suspect someone of a specific crime, they leave everyone alone. Read up on what's happened in NY since they were forced by a court to end stop and search, or stop and frisk as they called it. It's part of the problem here, not part of the solution, just as it was in New York.



I wouldn’t argue to stop everyone. The police only do that because they can’t be arsed to spend resources on identifying the right culprits as the victims aren’t Royal or Maddie McCann. What’s wrong with pressurising them into doing their job properly?


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 15, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I obviously mean intelligence led rather than racial profiling.


There's some cognitive dissonance going on here


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 15, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I’d be surprised if I had written off all black kids as pimps and drug dealers. If I talk about pimps and drug dealers I mean pimps and drug dealers.




The scariest thing here is that you either don't remember and/or you don't actually care enough to deal with and review the crap you have been posting here of late.




			
				Magnus said:
			
		

> I come from an area of the country where de-industrialisation had (and continues to have) a massive impact on prospects and employment. If only we’d all decided to be drug dealers and pimps! At least some on here, who didn’t live there, would have had our backs.



Who are this 'we' you are factoring yourself into and excluding others from? And who are you talking about as '_all_ drug dealers and pimps'?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 15, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I obviously mean intelligence led rather than racial profiling.


That can amount to the same thing. Intelligence: 'it was a group of black boys'; stop and search policy: 'we target black boys in this area tonight'. You can't get away from that: any intelligence worthy of the name is going to include some kind of physical description of potential suspects. Also, the areas targeted will skew results. So much so that if you're a young black male you are far more likely to be stopped than a young white male, or a young Chinese male for that matter. Here are a few stats broken down by ethnicity across the UK. Rates have fallen, which is good, but they need to fall way more.

Do you know the figures for how many stop and searches result in any kind of conviction for anything? Looking at some of the raw numbers, it has to be a very very low percentage. And every stop and search that doesn't lead to a conviction for something is another kid alienated that bit more from the police and from society in general. If that kid is black, you can add in that they now feel criminalised just for stepping out into the street in possession of dark skin, particularly after the second or third time it has happened to them. It's a disastrous policy. It creates a self-fulfilling prophecy. Also, because black people are so much more likely to be stopped, you'll get more black people arrested for carrying drugs/weapons. Simply because they're way more likely to be stopped, for no other reason. And that feeds back in to the 'intelligence' system.

ETA:

Thing is, all of the above is true even with an assumption of good faith and non-prejudice from the police. Add in the fact that it is the Met we are talking about here, with their ingrained bigotry and prejudice, their 'us and them' culture, and their reflex reaction to blame the victim whenever they fuck up, and the situation on the ground is in fact far worse.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 16, 2018)

Rutita1 said:


> The scariest thing here is that you either don't remember and/or you don't actually care enough to deal with and review the crap you have been posting here of late.
> 
> Who are this 'we' you are factoring yourself into and excluding others from? And who are you talking about as '_all_ drug dealers and pimps'?



The working class / lumpenproletariat. As I’d set out in previous posts.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 16, 2018)

Pretty amusing that the only racism you’ve managed to expose is your own.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 16, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Pretty amusing that the only racism you’ve managed to expose is your own.


It would be if that were true but it isn't. You don't remember posting that do you? If you had meant WC you would have said so at the time. 

It's pretty pathetic that you don't have the balls to back up the dodgey shit you post. I'd laugh if it were funny but it isn't.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 16, 2018)

Rutita1 said:


> It would be if that were true but it isn't. You don't remember posting that do you? If you had meant WC you would have said so at the time.
> 
> It's pretty pathetic that you don't have the balls to back up the dodgey shit you post. I'd laugh if it were funny but it isn't.



There are black victims in wc communities of these lumpen parasites. I include those in the ‘we’ (we don’t all become drug dealers and pimps). 
You’re simply projecting how *you* think onto my words, hence you exposing your own racism, not mine.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 16, 2018)

IWCA piece on London knife crime below:

Unlike the working class youngsters who signed up to fight ‘the Hun’ in 1918, today's knife wielders need no conditioning to kill. Still part of the working class, or the enemy of it? 

The controversy over knife crime and stop and search rumbles on. Professor Green, the white rapper and television presenter, is the latest to weigh in. He states that presenting knife crime as a problem in black communities, even in London, is racist. For him and a whole regiment of other Guardian worthies it is as simple as that. Writing on Instagram after an interview with Good Morning Britain, Professor Green said there was bias in how recent stabbings had been reported. “There had been a lot of reference to a statistic that its largely black youths stabbing each other – what was left out that this was only true in certain areas. As anyone with a brain can work out in more densely populated areas the face of knife crime is white. That’s never represented in the media. The fact that the face of knife crime they project nationally is black youths implies institutional racism and criminalises a whole race, fitting their agenda to bring back racially profiled stop and search.”

He concluded: “I don’t think stop and search works to do anything apart from create more division, friction and a lack of trust of an organisation ever proven to growingly corrupt.”

Here is some data from the Mayor of London’s office for policing: last year approximately half of all knife crime victims and offenders were black or minority ethnic. Regarding knife crime that resulted in injury, 69 per cent of offenders and 55 per cent of victims were black or minority ethnic, while 64 per cent of non-domestic knife homicide came from the same racial demographic. Knife crime in London is disproportionately a young black male problem and at the very least it is deeply dishonest to pretend otherwise.

Liberal opponents of efforts to clamp down on the gangs - which are the drivers and inspiration for much of the carnage - point to the need for a more holistic approach as adopted by the successful Glaswegian model, but they side step the reality that stop and search had to be increased eight fold to provide the underpinning for the overall strategy to be effective. Even then it took a decade to fully kick in. So in resisting the use of stop and search even in the working class neighbourhoods where knife killings are rampant, there is a tacit acceptance that in order to be true to a growingly corrupt liberal ideology the loss of young black lives is a price worth paying: collateral damage at best. From that very narrow angle, not making this a black issue is where the real bias lies.

In 1914-18 when working class youngsters signed up to fight ‘the Hun’ they had to be conditioned by exasperated NCO’s to kill. That the knife wielders terrorising entire estates and even boroughs need no such conditioning points to them being representative of a different social demographic with markedly different values, instincts and interests. In truth they are the high profile representatives of a class apart and brazenly proud of it. The drill music videos (which are also defended by liberals naturally) are used as a propaganda tool by various crews to add glamour, vindication, and intricacy to their grisly trade. On the surface it is all about insults, stabbings and post codes, but deep down it is also about indoctrinating thousands of children and youngsters not directly involved into their wolf and lamb worldview. The resulting social contagion is arguably more deadly than the gangs themselves, a political dimension which is, needless to say, also totally ignored.

In short, the lawless lumpen are not in any way representative of the working class historically, not even the roughest end of it. Indeed in many black working class neighbourhoods especially in London they represent a visible enemy.

Yet as Professor Green and others would have it, blameless black youth versus institutionally racist police is what it is really about. To call this superficial is to put the kindest spin on it. Fundamentally, the unspoken (and uneven) struggle is between working class communities white and black on one hand, and their lumpen and liberal opponents on the other. 

If you still doubt this analysis, ask yourself a simple question. Could the gangs ever be trusted as class allies? The answer will tell you whose side you are actually on.


----------



## ManchesterBeth (Nov 16, 2018)

Why aren't they talking about large swathes of the UK being made an industrial reserve army?

Also professor Green was always a joke.


----------



## ManchesterBeth (Nov 16, 2018)

lumpens are not a scientifically defined class with historical interests in the sense that proletariat/bourgeoisie is.

Are all the drug gangs lumpen as well?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 16, 2018)

If we ever expect to rebuild class solidarity/consciousness in communities then drug gangs are one of the obstacles to that so will need confronting at some stage along the line. Unless they somehow represent a progressive element?


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 16, 2018)

dialectician said:


> Why aren't they talking about large swathes of the UK being made an industrial reserve army?
> 
> Also professor Green was always a joke.


perhaps was always a joke counts as an incisive political argument in your tradition but it's a bit light here


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 16, 2018)

dialectician said:


> lumpens are not a scientifically defined class with historical interests in the sense that proletariat/bourgeoisie is.
> 
> Are all the drug gangs lumpen as well?



It's not about individuals or this mob or that mob its about the collective dynamic - which is directly detrimental to the interests of our class. As the article correctly states 'the struggle is between working class communities, white and black on one hand, and their lumpen and liberal opponents'.


----------



## ManchesterBeth (Nov 16, 2018)

well yeah. that isn't really saying anything though. I've seen similar stuff by some left comms attacking leftist support for the panthers and all it is a sectarian beef that people who aren't in leftist orgs simply don't care about. like this whole analysis seems to revolve around the spectre of professor green that the guardianistas get their pants in a twist about. come on the left's social base went over to neoliberalism starting as early as the 1970s.


----------



## ManchesterBeth (Nov 16, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> If we ever expect to rebuild class solidarity/consciousness in communities then drug gangs are one of the obstacles to that so will need confronting at some stage along the line. Unless they somehow represent a progressive element?



right on, trotbot.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 16, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> There are black victims in wc communities of these lumpen parasites. I include those in the ‘we’ (we don’t all become drug dealers and pimps).
> You’re simply projecting how *you* think onto my words, hence you exposing your own racism, not mine.



I am not sure that you understand what racism is tbh 

Whilst it seems like a step forward that you are now trying to pass off points that others have had to make to you as your own you still don't appear to engage with your own associations at all. Blaming me for noticing is piss poor.

For example compare...
'There are Black victims in working class communities'
'There are Black working class victims'

There is a difference.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 16, 2018)

Smokeandsteam said:


> IWCA piece on London knife crime below:
> 
> Unlike the working class youngsters who signed up to fight ‘the Hun’ in 1918, today's knife wielders need no conditioning to kill. Still part of the working class, or the enemy of it?
> 
> ...


I do like the image of plucky young men signing up to fight the gun in 14-18, nicely forgetting the introduction of conscription in 1916. And it's not like people fighting in subsequent wars were entirely eager to kill. What the article doesn't consider in its haste to denigrate its target is the role computer games, in particular first person shooter games, may play. The US army reports keen game players make better soldiers and have i think developed games themselves. I don't think it's a particularly good article with its peculiar contrast of upstanding working class (white) men of 1914-18 who needed conditioning to kill and the lumpen young (black) men of today who need no such compulsion


----------



## ManchesterBeth (Nov 16, 2018)

Basically i am trying to understand who this article's target audience is Smokeandsteam


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 16, 2018)

dialectician said:


> right on, trotbot.



Sorry if my posts aren’t academic enough for your well educated ass.


----------



## ManchesterBeth (Nov 16, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Sorry if my posts aren’t academic enough for your well educated ass.



Actually that was a comment about your 'conditioning.'


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 16, 2018)

dialectician said:


> , trotbot.



LOL


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 16, 2018)

Rutita1 said:


> I am not sure that you understand what racism is tbh
> 
> Whilst it seems like a step forward that you are now trying to pass off points that others have had to make to you as your own you still don't appear to engage with your own associations at all. Blaming me for noticing is piss poor.
> 
> ...



You view everything along racial lines (which is part of what racism is) and then project that onto my words. I’ve explained what I meant and it follows logically from my earlier posts (where you were claiming things like working class is code for ‘white’) - I’m not doing retrospective acrobatics.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 16, 2018)

dialectician said:


> Actually that was a comment about your 'conditioning.'



Ive never been part of any trot tradition.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 16, 2018)

Rutita1 said:


> LOL



Childish.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 16, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> *You view everything along racial lines *(which is part of what racism is) and then project that onto my words. I’ve explained what I meant and it follows logically from my earlier posts (where you were claiming things like working class is code for ‘white’) - I’m not doing retrospective acrobatics.



No I don't, I am pointing that habit out in you, you're not even conscious of it! It's tiresome to read you continually doing this whilst also claiming class warrior-dom. 

Also you do use WC as code for _White_, i've pointed that out to you on another thread too. I see you don't want to engage with the example I have offered you from your posts this morning either. Convenient.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 16, 2018)

Bizarre then, when my colleagues and neighbours etc are of mixed ethnicities that you think I exclude them when referring to the wc. It’s because that’s how YOU think, not me.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 16, 2018)

Rutita1 said:


> For example compare...
> 'There are Black victims in working class communities'
> 'There are Black working class victims'
> 
> There is a difference.



This is just pedantry at how I phrased something.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 16, 2018)

dialectician said:


> Basically i am trying to understand who this article's target audience is Smokeandsteam



You aren’t the target audience.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 16, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Bizarre then, when my colleagues and neighbours etc are of mixed ethnicities that you think I exclude them when referring to the wc. It’s because that’s how YOU think, not me.



Dear me...you are even trying the some of my friends/colleagues/neighbours are x line now. You don't think it yet it is evident in your associations and posts? Right.

That winky smilie is really creepy btw, in this context.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 16, 2018)

Working class communities tend to be more racially mixed than others - especially in London. So how is it code for ‘white’? 
I’m tiring of you again tbh.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 16, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> *Working class communities tend to be more racially mixed than others - especially in London. *So how is it code for ‘white’?
> I’m tiring of you again tbh.


Yes, we know, hence repeatedly making a similar point/challenge to you! If you can continue to reflect that in your posts from now on I think we've probably achieved something.


----------



## ManchesterBeth (Nov 16, 2018)

Smokeandsteam said:


> You aren’t the target audience.



Did I say I was? ffs.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 16, 2018)

Rutita1 said:


> Yes, we know, hence repeatedly making a similar point/challenge to you! If you can continue to reflect that in your posts from now on I think we've probably achieved something.



I don’t need to add caveats to ‘working class’ for it to mean many ethnicities ffs. It already means that.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 16, 2018)

dialectician said:


> Did I say I was? ffs.



No. You asked who the target audience was. Who the IWCA are trying to engage with.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 16, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I don’t need to add caveats to ‘working class’ for it to mean many ethnicities ffs. It already means that.



No-one is saying you do. It's the implied exclusions that are the problem as you well know.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 16, 2018)

Rutita1 said:


> No-one is saying you do. It's the implied exclusions that are the problem as you well know.



There are no ‘implied exclusions’- that’s entirely down to your misinterpretation.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 16, 2018)




----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 16, 2018)

Yes, that’s you. You’re arguing against what you think I mean despite me repeatedly saying that isn’t what I mean.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 16, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Don’t do heavy policing - it’s racist.
> Don’t do community action - it’s racist.
> 
> *black kids continue to die*



Community action should always be the first resort. It's hard for some antisocial knobhead to cry racism when it's the people around him (and it is almost always a male or males), of every colour, condemning him. Use the tools available, and if/when they don't work, THEN bring in the Old Bill, who won't do fuck all, but at least you can make sure your complaint is officially registered. 

Bear in mind, folks, that ASB has to be of the order of dealing out of your council home, for eviction proceedings to even be considered. Local authorities prefer to look the other way regarding ASB less serious than that.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 16, 2018)

ViolentPanda said:


> Community action should always be the first resort. It's hard for some antisocial knobhead to cry racism when it's the people around him (and it is almost always a male or males), of every colour, condemning him. Use the tools available, and if/when they don't work, THEN bring in the Old Bill, who won't do fuck all, but at least you can make sure your complaint is officially registered.
> 
> Bear in mind, folks, that ASB has to be of the order of dealing out of your council home, for eviction proceedings to even be considered. Local authorities prefer to look the other way regarding ASB less serious than that.


I think by community action Magnus means people patrolling and calling the cops on the suspicious or trying to detain them, vigilantes anyway


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 16, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> If we ever expect to rebuild class solidarity/consciousness in communities then drug gangs are one of the obstacles to that so will need confronting at some stage along the line. Unless they somehow represent a progressive element?



If we liquidate those elements of the _bourgeoisie _ that use cocaine, we could remove a substantial amount of drug gang trade.

Just a thought.[/I]


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 16, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> I think by community action Magnus means people patrolling and calling the cops on the suspicious or trying to detain them, vigilantes anyway



Local vigilantism should always be a last resort, because the potential for blowback is so great.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 16, 2018)

ViolentPanda said:


> Community action should always be the first resort. It's hard for some antisocial knobhead to cry racism when it's the people around him (and it is almost always a male or males), of every colour, condemning him. Use the tools available, and if/when they don't work, THEN bring in the Old Bill, who won't do fuck all, but at least you can make sure your complaint is officially registered.





Pickman's model said:


> I think by community action Magnus means people patrolling and calling the cops on the suspicious or trying to detain them, vigilantes anyway



Its great that you both have your own ideas around what you deem to be acceptable responses. No phoning the cops! No vigilantism! Ethnic quotas of activists!
If only the working class were all perfectly turned out libertarian communists, like you two!
Until then, we’ll just have to accept that they might organise in ways us sneering outsiders find unpalatable.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 16, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> I do like the image of plucky young men signing up to fight the gun in 14-18, nicely forgetting the introduction of conscription in 1916. And it's not like people fighting in subsequent wars were entirely eager to kill. What the article doesn't consider in its haste to denigrate its target is the role computer games, in particular first person shooter games, may play. The US army reports keen game players make better soldiers and have i think developed games themselves. I don't think it's a particularly good article with its peculiar contrast of upstanding working class (white) men of 1914-18 who needed conditioning to kill and the lumpen young (black) men of today who need no such compulsion



Why not take it up with them personally?


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 16, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Why not take it up with them personally?


Next time I bump into them I will


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 16, 2018)

I wasn’t being serious. Was just dying to say that since you said it to me.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 16, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Its great that you both have your own ideas around what you deem to be acceptable responses. No phoning the cops! No vigilantism! Ethnic quotas of activists!
> If only the working class were all perfectly turned out libertarian communists, like you two!
> Until then, we’ll just have to accept that they might organise in ways us sneering outsiders find unpalatable.


Who appointed you Spokesman for the Working Classes all of a sudden?

How do you know those you're replying to aren't already in one way or another involved in community action of a kind they think is part of a solution to these problems? You're the one 'othering' posters constantly on here, like these are problems that are somehow 'over there' for all of the rest of us posting, and that's the only possible reason we might think as we do. Can't be because people have thought about it and think some things work while others don't, and have good solid reasons for thinking that. 

wrt calling the police, a rather obvious point I would make there is that you can get yourself into serious shit for calling the police on your neighbours. Something that needs very careful consideration.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 16, 2018)

I know that none of them (including me) are based in Birmingham - which was the action under consideration earlier in the thread.
And having been involved in something similar myself I know very well the feeling when know-alls pop up to offer their expert tips on where you’ve been going wrong.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 16, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Yes, that’s you. You’re arguing against what you think I mean despite me repeatedly saying that isn’t what I mean.



Unitl you do the exact same thing again then deny you did it/are doing it because it's all a fucking laugh/competition/game. /sigh.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 16, 2018)

Rutita1 said:


> Unitl you do the exact same thing again then deny you did it/are doing it because it's all a fucking laugh/competition/game. /sigh.



Look - this bit of conversation happened A WEEK ago:

 

A WEEK! 

But you’re still arguing the point today that I really mean white when I say working class.
It’s tedious as fuck.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 16, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Look - this bit of conversation happened A WEEK ago:
> 
> View attachment 152694
> 
> ...



Yes you denied doing it a week ago. You then went on to do it again. You keep doing it. You also keep positioning yourself as an authority of what the WC do/think/are from other perspectives and dismiss anyone who disagrees with you as a liberal or MC too. Tedious as fuck as you say.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 16, 2018)

Actually best I just put you on ignore.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 16, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Working class communities tend to be more racially mixed than others - especially in London. So how is it code for ‘white’?
> I’m tiring of you again tbh.



In Birmingham there isnt a ‘white working class community’ any more. Given immigration patterns into the city it’s arguable that there hasn’t been for a long time. And even when the place was white it was made up of Irish, Welsh and others who moved here to work in the factories.

It’s so self evident that having to even make the point is fucking annoying.

For the last time - this is about working class communities, of all hues, and the lumpen and liberal opposition.

The gang dynamic is directly counter to our interests. They are subject to the same external conditions and pressures as we are but set themselves apart by their response.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 16, 2018)

Smokeandsteam said:


> In Birmingham there isnt a ‘white working class community’ any more.



What none at all? 

British white people set to become a minority in Birmingham




> Given immigration patterns into the city it’s arguable that there hasn’t been for a long time. And even when the place was white it was made up of Irish, Welsh and others who moved here to work in the factories.



So these workers that you describe as 'Irish, Welsh and others' who worked in factories were not WC either?


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 16, 2018)

Rutita1 youve asked two questions here:

1. There are a lot of white working class people in Birmingham. The point I was making, as I suspect you know, is that they live, love, drink, work in multi ethnic communities and workplaces. There isn’t a ‘whites only’ othering of predominately black gangs here. I suspect London is exactly the same.
2. Your second question makes no sense. The point I was making is simple. In every working class community in Birmingham there are people who come from everywhere or their families do. The majority- subject to the same pressures, exploitation, shit futures, precarious work etc etc - do not respond by stabbing, shooting, terrorising their own or living a life of arrid individualism.

For pro working class politics to succeed - at some point - the militant wing of lumpenism will need to be confronted. At present, preventing it from overwhelming parts of our city is important.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 16, 2018)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Rutita1 youve asked two questions here:
> 
> 1. There are a lot of white working class people in Birmingham. The point I was making, as I suspect you know, is that they live, love, drink, work in multi ethnic communities and workplaces. There isn’t a ‘whites only’ othering of predominately black gangs here. I suspect London is exactly the same.



No I didn't know what you were getting at because it wasn't clear. You have been clearer now by saying 'There isn’t a ‘whites _*only*_’...Now you make sense where as before you seemed to be suggesting there were no White Working class people in Brum.




			
				you said:
			
		

> In Birmingham there isnt a ‘white working class community’ any more.





> 2. Your second question makes no sense. The point I was making is simple. In working class communities there are people who come from everywhere or their families do.


 See above. You weren't clear. You are now.


----------



## purenarcotic (Nov 17, 2018)

Smokeandsteam said:


> In Birmingham there isnt a ‘white working class community’ any more. Given immigration patterns into the city it’s arguable that there hasn’t been for a long time. And even when the place was white it was made up of Irish, Welsh and others who moved here to work in the factories.
> 
> It’s so self evident that having to even make the point is fucking annoying.
> 
> ...



Have you never been to Frankley? Or Kings Norton? 

Birmingham is extremely racially segregated, I don’t think people realise it but if you work in schools you see it really clearly. I’ve been into schools with no white British children across the entire year group and schools where white faces are all you see.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 17, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Its great that you both have your own ideas around what you deem to be acceptable responses. No phoning the cops! No vigilantism! Ethnic quotas of activists!
> If only the working class were all perfectly turned out libertarian communists, like you two!
> Until then, we’ll just have to accept that they might organise in ways us sneering outsiders find unpalatable.


Don't put words in my mouth, there's a good boy. It makes you look like a fool. Well, more of a fool, anyway.

Oh, and "libertarian communist"? : . You don't have a clue.


----------



## GarveyLives (Nov 19, 2018)




----------



## Sasaferrato (Nov 19, 2018)

In the Guardian:

The British state has given up on the children who need it most | Gary Younge

It occurred to me that 'grandparents.com' could be helpful. Older people who would be willing to give their time to mentor youngsters who are having 'directional issues'. I realise that there is no quick fix, but the day I read that article, Master Sas (Grandson) spent a long time with Mrs (Granny) Sas discussing something (If I needed to know, I'd have been told. ). They have a strong bond, and Mrs Sas has a sound head and good moral compass.

Both my grandfathers were gone by the time I was five, grannies ditto, so I didn't ever have that opportunity to discuss things with a close relative, but not my parents. 

I expect that I'll now be told that such an organisation already exists.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 20, 2018)

Stealing workers’ tools in your own community has to be one of the lowest crimes out there besides violence against others. 

People with the wrong ethnic quotas taking things into their own hands in Hartlepool in this report: 

The town where ‘police don’t come out’


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 20, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> *People with the wrong ethnic quotas* taking things into their own hands in Hartlepool in this report:


That's a particularly crass and stupid comment.


----------



## agricola (Nov 20, 2018)

littlebabyjesus said:


> That's a particularly crass and stupid comment.



It was also an incredibly inaccurate headline for the article.


----------



## Edie (Nov 20, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Stealing workers’ tools in your own community has to be one of the lowest crimes out there besides violence against others.
> 
> People with the wrong ethnic quotas taking things into their own hands in Hartlepool in this report:
> 
> The town where ‘police don’t come out’


God that makes me SO angry. Hartlepool deserves so much better. 10 coppers on a night, and at one point not a single one available to respond to an emergency. How is that safe? How is that even _allowed_? And crimes like the theft of that man’s tools, with cctv evidence, not even investigated. To all intents and purposes there isn’t a police force. No wonder locals are having to do it themselves. But they’re untrained, have jobs, have no safety backup like radios or even protective gear, have no power. It’s an outrage.

People want a functioning police service. I want to know that if I dial 999 in the middle of the night in an emergency that police will respond, and quickly. It’s what every decent person wants.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 20, 2018)

littlebabyjesus said:


> That's a particularly crass and stupid comment.



People weren’t saying that earlier in the thread?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 20, 2018)

agricola said:


> It was also an incredibly inaccurate headline for the article.



Who cares about that though?


----------



## agricola (Nov 20, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Who cares about that though?



Because if you were lazy enough to glance at that piece, you'd inevitably think that the Police do not come out in Hartlepool.  Of course the report actually said that the small number of officers who had to deal with one of the two busiest nights of the week actually had gone out but were overwhelmed by events, as well as the fact that because of cuts they'd lost hundreds of colleagues *and* had to drive half an hour away every time they nicked someone because their state of the art custody couldn't be opened.


----------



## Edie (Nov 20, 2018)

The poor coppers who are left as well. Busting a bloody gut but nothing they can do will be good enough. It’s like working on an understaffed ward. You have to work 100% harder but get almost no job satisfaction cos you just can’t win, you’re literally running from patient to patient just in an effort to keep people safe, but there’s no time to listen, to help, to bloody care.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 20, 2018)

agricola said:


> Because if you were lazy enough to glance at that piece, you'd inevitably think that the Police do not come out in Hartlepool.  Of course the report actually said that the small number of officers who had to deal with one of the two busiest nights of the week actually had gone out but were overwhelmed by events, as well as the fact that because of cuts they'd lost hundreds of colleagues *and* had to drive half an hour away every time they nicked someone because their state of the art custody couldn't be opened.



But I’ve argued that short of community action the authorities should be held to account for not policing effectively.
Perhaps your arguments are best placed towards those who think policing has no place?


----------



## Edie (Nov 20, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> But I’ve argued that short of community action the authorities should be held to account for not policing effectively.
> Perhaps your arguments are best placed towards those who think policing has no place?


Think he’s just quibbling the headline. It should read ‘desperately understaffed and resourced police in Hartlepool work flat out but still can’t provide a safe or functioning service’. I’m not a journalist tho.


----------



## agricola (Nov 20, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> But I’ve argued that short of community action the authorities should be held to account for not policing effectively.
> Perhaps your arguments are best placed towards those who think policing has no place?



Well no, because you posted the piece without a comment on the headline and it appeared as if you were saying that inaction was why those blokes felt the need to patrol their own streets.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 20, 2018)

Edie said:


> Think he’s just quibbling the headline. It should read ‘desperately understaffed and resourced police in Hartlepool work flat out but still can’t provide a safe or functioning service’. I’m not a journalist tho.



Of course. But there’s people on this thread who appear to opt for a ‘no police’ solution so I was adding this to the mix.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 20, 2018)

agricola said:


> Well no, because you posted the piece without a comment on the headline and it appeared as if you were saying that inaction was why those blokes felt the need to patrol their own streets.



Surely the context was this thread rather than the article in some vacuum?


----------



## Edie (Nov 20, 2018)

Tbf I think it’s about the police not going out for the tools theft. But how can they? At that level they’re literally dealing with emergencies, threats to life.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 20, 2018)

It reflects loads about policing priorities. The fact there’s no police in working class areas down to what they prioritise with what resources they have.


----------



## Edie (Nov 20, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Of course. But there’s people on this thread who appear to opt for a ‘no police’ solution so I was adding this to the mix.


I never know what to say to people who take that line. It just seems so incredibly out of touch with reality.


----------



## Edie (Nov 20, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> It reflects loads about policing priorities. The fact there’s no police in working class areas down to what they prioritise with what resources they have.


Absolutely. And poor northern towns are bottom of the list. That’s a lot worse than Leeds I’d imagine. Which in turn will be worse than say Cambridge. At a guess?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 20, 2018)

Edie said:


> I never know what to say to people who take that line. It just seems so incredibly out of touch with reality.



It’s out of touch with reality that tool thefts are a given but a small protest against a business heralds a major response?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 20, 2018)

Sorry, might have misunderstood you.


----------



## Edie (Nov 20, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> It’s out of touch with reality that tool thefts are a given but a small protest against a business heralds a major response?


The fracking stuff?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 20, 2018)

Exactly mate.


----------



## Edie (Nov 20, 2018)

For the record, I don’t think business should be protected disproportionately by the police. They *should* be a community resource. That’s no doubt naive from the opposite direction.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 20, 2018)

It would be nice if business was a community resource but that'd need a great change in business outlook


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 20, 2018)

Police will always protect the flow of capital over the individual. Yet we fund them through taxation.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 20, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> It would be nice if business was a community resource but that'd need a great change in business outlook



In an ideal world but we don’t inhabit that yet.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 20, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> In an ideal world but we don’t inhabit that yet.


I love it when you tell me what I've just said


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 20, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> I love it when you tell me what I've just said



#metoo


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 20, 2018)

But you argue as if it is the present, pickmans.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 20, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> #metoo


Maybe you could get a parrot or parakeet as your avatar


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 20, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> Maybe you could get a parrot or parakeet as your avatar



I’ll make sure it has Ba hons in several subjects.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 20, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I’ll make sure it has Ba hons in several subjects.


You do that


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 20, 2018)

I’m thinking of how a modern day Punch and Judy show would pan out. You’ve got the guy and his wife with a baby. He’s stressed out by work but also having his tools nicked. The policeman doesn’t exist. The crocodile lowers his wages and the left all laugh without any answers.
Catch you in Blackpool.


----------



## GarveyLives (Nov 23, 2018)

​


----------



## andysays (Nov 30, 2018)

In response to the calls earlier in the thread for the police to 'do something', here's the 'something' you wanted

London's Metropolitan Police force considers armed foot patrols








> The Metropolitan Police is considering deploying armed officers on foot patrols to prevent violence in areas "where gang activity is likely".





> In the memo seen by the BBC, email recipients were told the idea of armed police on foot patrol was part of a "recent internal discussion" into how to reduce violent deaths in the capital. If adopted, the armed patrols would be "based on an informed and reliable intelligence picture of where gang activity is likely", only be done in "full consultation with the local policing borough" and be used as a "temporary measure for short periods of time", the memo stated.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 30, 2018)

Edie said:


> For the record, I don’t think business should be protected disproportionately by the police. They *should* be a community resource. That’s no doubt naive from the opposite direction.


Coming back to this and the potential role for police in society, I think there are three distinct positive roles the police are potentially asked to play.

The first is to act as 'the long arm of the law'. So the bloke who had his tools nicked can report it to the police and the police can investigate and potentially catch the thieves and retrieve the tools.

The second is to act as the 999 emergency service, so there is a fight, the police are called and have the resources and training to do something about it.

The third is 'crime prevention', and this is where I think there can be unrealistic views. The police don't, and can't, keep us safe in this direct way. For the vast majority of our lives, there is no police officer anywhere in sight. To an extent we need to look out for one another, but also we need to trust in our society - the vast majority of people are not out to get us. When there are calls for more of this third role for the police because society has broken down to the extent that people feel unsafe in their own streets, that is when my antennae start whirring. Many so-called crime prevention measures in response to this, such as stop and search, just make matters worse. Many others, including covert operations, severely impinge on our freedoms without making us any safer, and very often are carried out primarily in the interests of the fourth and very important role that the police play in our society - namely to protect the property and authority of those in power.


----------



## DotCommunist (Nov 30, 2018)

andysays said:


> In response to the calls earlier in the thread for the police to 'do something', here's the 'something' you wanted
> 
> London's Metropolitan Police force considers armed foot patrols


guns will deffo solve things, we can just look to americas eerily crime free cities


----------



## treelover (Jan 19, 2019)

The IWCA FB site claims there were 69000 knife woundings of young people in the first half of 2018, that is an awful lot and if correct surely merits the title 'crisis'

doesn't provide a source.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Jan 19, 2019)

Probably a separate thing but thought I’d ask.

Is “County Lines” really a new thing or just a new-ish term for something that’s long happened in some form, latched onto by a media that loves such catch-phrases? Ta.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 19, 2019)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> Probably a separate thing but thought I’d ask.
> 
> Is “County Lines” really a new thing or just a new-ish term for something that’s long happened in some form, latched onto by a media that loves such catch-phrases? Ta.


I think it's when people go from eg London to Essex to flog drugs, crossing to a different police area


----------



## Manter (Jan 19, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> I think it's when people go from eg London to Essex to flog drugs, crossing to a different police area


Surely they’ve always done that? I vaguely remember there was some programme on TV in the ?80s where an inspector somewhere up north was talking about dealers from another city and the trouble is was causing. I’m sure dealers are bright enough to look at a map and identify that the rest of the country exists...


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 19, 2019)

Manter said:


> Surely they’ve always done that? I vaguely remember there was some programme on TV in the ?80s where an inspector somewhere up north was talking about dealers from another city and the trouble is was causing. I’m sure dealers are bright enough to look at a map and identify that the rest of the country exists...


Yeh it's strange it's become such a thing recently


----------



## OneStrike (Jan 19, 2019)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> Probably a separate thing but thought I’d ask.
> 
> Is “County Lines” really a new thing or just a new-ish term for something that’s long happened in some form, latched onto by a media that loves such catch-phrases? Ta.



It has always happened but I think it is now a known thing, by that I mean it is a common strategy for dealers to generate revenue.  Its odd, but dealers from Wolverhampton have been trading in Aberdeen for as long as I can remember, not necessarily adopting the cuckoo approach but its an established line none the less.  The county lines thing is bogus as criminal history is littered with gangsters trying to move in on new territory (every city in the midlands has a 'repelled the Krays' story). The cuckoo thing is not new, but in the climate we have now it is a specific problem, gangs will always exploit the vulnerable but now it has a name the public can label it.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jan 19, 2019)

I don't think it's the cockoo-ing as if it's a new thing that is drawing attention tbh. It's the amount of it going on now and that it's generally young people/children being exploited/used to do it. The recent conviction for child trafficking speaks volumes.


----------



## OneStrike (Jan 19, 2019)

The kids getting expelled from education fuel this problem, society gives up on them rather than applying some resources to see how we can help.  Bombed out of school at 14 and labelled a wrong'un? What the hell do you do when your mum can't afford the heating bill and the rug rats won't stop screaming?  Big bad Tr#v has plenty of cash and needs a labourer, you just need to relocate to Bournemouth for 4 days a week. Before you know it, things are on top.


----------



## Cid (Jan 20, 2019)

treelover said:


> The IWCA FB site claims there were 69000 knife woundings of young people in the first half of 2018, that is an awful lot and if correct surely merits the title 'crisis'
> 
> doesn't provide a source.



Sounds very unlikely... Parliament research briefings has total knife crime 2017/18 at around 40,000, with 5,000 hospital admissions. Maybe there's bias and under reporting creeping in there, and obviously some young people just wouldn't go to hospital. But I've no idea where you'd get accurate statistics on how much of an effect that has.

5050 hospital admissions/year is still awful mind you.


----------



## love detective (Jan 20, 2019)

> The BMJ Open data echoes [that] the most common time of day for violence is after school. In 2018 so far, our data across London, Nottingham and Birmingham shows 30% of weapon-enabled assaults occur between 4pm to 8pm.”
> 
> Jackie Sebire, the National Police Chiefs’ Council spokeswoman on violent crime, warned last week that children as young as nine and 10 were carrying out knife assaults. Levels of violence she had not seen in her 26-year career were leading to scenes reminiscent of “the Wild West,” said Sebire, the assistant chief constable of Bedfordshire police.
> In all, 69,000 children aged between 10 and 15 were wounded as a result of being stabbed or injured in some other way in the year to June.



Knife crime: stagger school leaving times, say London doctors
Under 16s are at highest risk of being stabbed going home from school, UK study finds


----------



## Dogsauce (Jan 20, 2019)

Rutita1 said:


> I don't think it's the cockoo-ing as if it's a new thing that is drawing attention tbh. It's the amount of it going on now and that it's generally young people/children being exploited/used to do it. The recent conviction for child trafficking speaks volumes.



I think Leeds used to get a lot of stuff coming across from Liverpool & Manchester, but this was always older scary types, not kids, and I don't think there was much aggro associated with it, just settled supply lines. I guess this was before the prevalence of mobile phones so different levels of supply would have been developed as personal relationships, you couldn't just nick a phone off someone to take over their business.  Definitely think the use of kids and the territorial aspect of it is a newer development.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Jan 21, 2019)

Rutita1 said:


> I don't think it's the cockoo-ing as if it's a new thing that is drawing attention tbh. It's the amount of it going on now and that it's generally young people/children being exploited/used to do it. The recent conviction for child trafficking speaks volumes.



Yep, strikes me there’s nothing new to geographical diversity, but the grooming problem has worsened. Austerity plays a huge role - a social Darwinist policy with the added bonus of the poor killing each other in line with the same ideology.


----------



## GarveyLives (Mar 5, 2019)

​


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Mar 5, 2019)

Useful and important article by criminologists Hall, Treadwell and Winlow below which punctures both of the current wrong headed narratives around this epidemic:

*Article excerpt*
A Note on Lower-Class Masculinities, Criminality, and the Media Industry 

THOUGH THE IDEA OF A "CRISIS OF MASCULINITY" MIGHT BE A HASTY EXPLANATION of the problems experienced by males in today's radically altering world (Beynon, 2002), there is little doubt that the recent foundational change in the capitalist economy has negatively affected those unlucky enough to be born in locales of permanent recession (Taylor, 1999; Lea, 2002). The decline of traditional heavy industries and the communities that grew around them has destabilized what was once a fairly organized context for working-class male culture and biographies, rooted in collectivism and shaped by the rhythms and structures of the industrial economy. Transplantation of capital's socioeconomic heart from these stable industrial settlements to neurotic postindustrial cities and the global arteries of commerce has posed a number of important questions that criminology has yet to address satisfactorily. For instance, the decline of community and the emergence of individualized "lifestyle" consumerism pose serious questions about social order and the maintenance of civilized social interactions (Hall and Winlow, 2004). Answering them requires a critical analysis of the relationship between the neo-capitalist economy, extreme social exclusion, the problematic forms of masculinity (Beynon, 2002), and "street culture" (Jacobs et al., 2003), which are beginning to dominate micro-communities cut off from the legitimate economy and expelled from mainstream society

"Radgies, Gangstas, and Mugs: Imaginary Criminal Identities in the Twilight of the Pseudo-Pacification Process" by Hall, Steve; Winlow, Simon; Ancrum, Craig - Social Justice, Vol. 32, Issue 1, Spring 2005 | Online Research Library: Questia


----------



## Patteran (Mar 5, 2019)

Doesn't paint a pretty picture when it takes the murder of a suburban girl & a Manchester Grammar School boy to prompt urgent demands for political action on knife crime after so many other thousands of deaths & woundings. Echoes of Judith Butler's 'grievable lives', maybe.


----------



## Dogsauce (Mar 5, 2019)

^ this.

Was just going to post something similar, the press have found some nice ‘blameless’ respectable-looking white(ish) victims to put on the front page. Stuff never changes and it sickens me.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 5, 2019)

Patteran said:


> Doesn't paint a pretty picture when it takes the murder of a suburban girl & a Manchester Grammar School boy to prompt urgent demands for political action on knife crime after so many other thousands of deaths & woundings. Echoes of Judith Butler's 'grievable lives', maybe.



Same as it ever was


----------



## Mr Moose (Mar 5, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Useful and important article by criminologists Hall, Treadwell and Winlow below which punctures both of the current wrong headed narratives around this epidemic:
> 
> *Article excerpt*
> A Note on Lower-Class Masculinities, Criminality, and the Media Industry
> ...



Yeah, but anyone who grew up in the sixties/seventies will tell you it was rough as hell, more collective or not. 

Fighting was everywhere, gigs, football, leaving the pub and I didn’t live in an area of desperate need. I got attacked half a dozen times between 16-18 by randoms I’d never met. My mate Mike not at school one day as someone had run a Stanley knife down his back. Not much safer there as school was a place of regular fights, one kid got a dart in an eye one day. I don’t think I even bothered to mention it at home.

However bad it is today my son has no expectation that any fights will take place at his school, it would not be tolerated.

There does appear something different though. However many times I got chased by a group of blokes it never occurred to me that it would be more than a pasting if they caught up. There seems to be a degree of gratuitous wounding and recklessness about today’s violence or at least that’s what they say at Kings College Hospital. But it’s hard to compare as deaths among youths weren’t big news back then, fights rarely recorded or noted.

I’m not arguing against a class component, nor extreme social exclusion, merely that it isn’t simply because hundreds don’t go to the same factory anymore. Generally it was more widely violent then.


----------



## Celyn (Mar 5, 2019)

Mr Moose said:


> Yeah, but anyone who grew up in the sixties/seventies will tell you it was rough as hell, more collective or not.
> 
> Fighting was everywhere, gigs, football, leaving the pub and I didn’t live in an area of desperate need. I got attacked half a dozen times between 16-18 by randoms I’d never met....


I think it might not be the case, really, that anyone who grew up in the seventies will tell you there was fighting everywhere.

I grew up in the seventies in a working-class area in Glasgow. I don't remember all of this "rough as hell" stuff.


----------



## Saul Goodman (Mar 6, 2019)

Celyn said:


> I think it might not be the case, really, that anyone who grew up in the seventies will tell you there was fighting everywhere.
> 
> I grew up in the seventies in a working-class area in Glasgow. I don't remember all of this "rough as hell" stuff.


I grew up in Manchester and went to school there in the 70s and early 80s, and I remember only too well the fighting that went on. The only difference back then was the fighting was mostly organised. Everyone knew when Moss SIde were visiting (insert my home town), and everyone was prepared for a proper good fight, and the early 80s was the the first time we experienced blades. Nobody had ever dreamt of bringing knives to a fight, until Moss Side started hacking and slashing our lot, then knives became more commonplace.
Don't kid yourself. Fighting was a lot more prevalent back then, but random knife attacks on strangers was almost unheard of.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Mar 6, 2019)

Saul Goodman said:


> I grew up in Manchester and went to school there in the 70s and early 80s, and I remember only too well the fighting that went on. The only difference back then was the fighting was mostly organised. Everyone knew when Moss SIde were visiting (insert my home town), and everyone was prepared for a proper good fight, and the early 80s was the the first time we experienced blades. Nobody had ever dreamt of bringing knives to a fight, until Moss Side started hacking and slashing our lot, then knives became more commonplace.
> Don't kid yourself. Fighting was a lot more prevalent back then, but random knife attacks on strangers was almost unheard of.



And it was exactly the same in Birmingham.

There was fighting and rucking everywhere and all the time it’s true, but it was practically unheard of for people to die.

Plus knife carrying by lads was not done. It was seen as cowardice and anyone carrying them seen as ‘effeminate’ and unable to handle themselves. The first time I became aware of anyone carrying a knife would have been in my mid teens and even then it was limited to the football and known firm members activity.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 6, 2019)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Same as it ever was


Am I the only person here to remember damilola taylor?

Grievable lives, yeh. But they're not all white or white(ish)


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 6, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> And it was exactly the same in Birmingham.
> 
> There was fighting and rucking everywhere and all the time it’s true, but it was practically unheard of for people to die.
> 
> Plus knife carrying by lads was not done. It was seen as cowardice and anyone carrying them seen as ‘effeminate’ and unable to handle themselves. The first time I became aware of anyone carrying a knife would have been in my mid teens and even then it was limited to the football and known firm members activity.


Out of curiosity did you see the hoolies as effeminate?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 6, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> Am I the only person here to remember damilola taylor?
> 
> Grievable lives, yeh. But they're not all white or white(ish)



Tbf he was 10 and fortunately it is exceedingly rare that 10 year olds are stabbed to death.


----------



## Sodapop (Mar 6, 2019)

London, if you weren't in the right gang then you had no protection


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 6, 2019)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Tbf he was 10 and fortunately it is exceedingly rare that 10 year olds are stabbed to death.


I'm sorry, I thought the point you were making was it was only when auld whitey gets stabbed, and in particular a white girl, that the theme of knife crime gets this sort of attention


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 6, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> I'm sorry, I thought the point you were making was it was only when auld whitey gets stabbed, and in particular a white girl, that the theme of knife crime gets this sort of attention



Kind of, more that when the victim is atypical that the attention gets focused, whereas every victim is a life cut short, has a mum who will never recover, has other family who will forever be scarred and so on.


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 6, 2019)

As I was told as a youngster growing up in an incredibly violent area of South Yorkshire, ‘if tha can’t fate, wear a daft hat’
I quickly learned to use humour and act daft to get out of some terribly sticky moments at times. If I thought I had a chance I’d get stuck in, otherwise try to laugh my way out. I still got some proper hammerings but it would never enter my mind to carry a knife. Have these values been lost to society?


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Mar 6, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> As I was told as a youngster growing up in an incredibly violent area of South Yorkshire, ‘if tha can’t fate, wear a daft hat’
> I quickly learned to use humour and act daft to get out of some terribly sticky moments at times. If I thought I had a chance I’d get stuck in, otherwise try to laugh my way out. I still got some proper hammerings but it would never enter my mind to carry a knife. Have these values been lost to society?



You could and did expect a kicking if you were unlucky or outnumbered or whatever. I’m not pretending their haven’t always been gangs. I’m also not pretending there wasn’t violence on a regular basis.

But teenagers being murdered on this scale and for such trivial reasons? Unprecedented in any gang culture in history. The research I posted earlier sets out the lines of inquiry that must be followed. The dominant narratives - that more cops are the answer (labour) or that this is a modern version of mod/teddy boy/skin/casual culture (liberals) - are both palpably ridiculous


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 6, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> You could and did expect a kicking if you were unlucky or outnumbered or whatever. I’m not pretending their haven’t always been gangs. I’m also not pretending there wasn’t violence on a regular basis.
> 
> But teenagers being murdered on this scale and for such trivial reasons? Unprecedented in any gang culture in history. The research I posted earlier sets out the lines of inquiry that must be followed. The dominant narratives - that more cops are the answer (labour) or that this is a modern version of mod/teddy boy/skin/casual culture (liberals) - are both palpably ridiculous


it can't be that unprecedented if a 2005 article sets out the lines of inquiry which must be followed.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Mar 6, 2019)

Sodapop said:


> London, if you weren't in the right gang then you had no protection


London, where and when. A serious question .Certai Cer not long me that for my elder brother s in the 70s and not for my peer group in the 80s either


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 6, 2019)

I didn't find the 70's or 80's to be particularly violent. I avoided hanging around with 'hard' people though as I thought they were dicks. 

Knives have always been used, what does seem to have changed a bit is that kids today feel that the loss of face from a pasting is the worst thing ever, so go to extreme lengths to avoid it, where as amongst fighty twats of yore you had a punch up and either won or lost, it didn't really matter beyond some physical bruising, the ego didn't take the battering and so lived to (literally) fight another day.


----------



## andysays (Mar 6, 2019)

Rutita1 said:


> London, where and when. A serious question .Certai Cer not long me that for my elder brother s in the 70s and not for my peer group in the 80s either


Nor for me or anyone I know/knew. I suspect Sodapop has been on the sodapop themselves to make such a ridiculous claim


----------



## bellaozzydog (Mar 6, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> I'm sorry, I thought the point you were making was it was only when auld whitey gets stabbed, and in particular a white girl, that the theme of knife crime gets this sort of attention



There is a definite "sleepy village" "white kid" how could this happen? tone to the reporting


----------



## crossthebreeze (Mar 6, 2019)

Just saw this on facebook.
Alex Beresford, the weatherman on shit show Good Morning Britain, interrupted an interview with Mr Apter, Chairman of the Police Federation of England and Wales about knife crime with some sensible talk.  Good on him!

Mr Apter demanded we build more prisons to act as a punishment.

"Prison doesn't work though," Alex shouted across the studio, as the camera panned to him. 

The weatherman added: "It does not work.  I've grown up in some of these communities you guys are talking about.  Prison is not a deterrent.  Some of these boys don't fear prison.  If you don't change the environment you wont change anything and that's the key thing.  This has been happening for years.  And it's not always in the media.  It won't change.  It's going to take several things to come together.  Yes policing is one thing."​
Alex later added: "At the end of the day, if you don't change these boys' environment.  All of you guys on that side have benefited from the environment you've grown up in.  You've benefited from this work environment.  I've benefited from it.  But these boys, not all of them get to benefit from the enivironment.  If we don't show them something else you won't change it, sorry."

Alex continued: "Avon and Somerset Police I know for a fact do knife sweeps.  Often you get the innocent young black boy who gets stopped by police and gets frustrated.  We've all seem them on social media where they get arrested because they can't control their anger.  That's how that relationship with the police breaks down."​


----------



## mojo pixy (Mar 6, 2019)

I'm reliably informed by an old school friend who recently suggested I move back to Portsmouth, that it's not as violent and scummy as it was when we were kids in the 70's-80's (and it was). I have to believe him, but I also wonder what difference it makes to be a well-to-do middle-aged father-of-three living in the suburbs, rather than a teenage lad at school in the city centre.


----------



## Patteran (Mar 6, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> Am I the only person here to remember damilola taylor?
> 
> Grievable lives, yeh. But they're not all white or white(ish)



I made the original point, & deliberately swerved the word 'white' while highlighting class. The poor sod from Manchester Grammar School hasn't made headlines because of his (absent) whiteness - he's made headlines because he attended a top private school & was murdered on a road where every house costs around a million pounds. I understand why it's important to post counter-examples to challenge lazy thinking, easy narratives. But I stand by the original assertion - the victim in Hale has created more headlines, more calls for action, than previous murders in contexts where headline writers & politicians expect this to happen, & even apparently tolerate it happening. Knife crime has been on the rise in Mcr for years - this is the first time the story has gone national & prompted a visit from the Home Secretary (politicians responding to the coverage, rather than the causes). We have, of course, had community-based responses to the horror of teen murders that have gone beyond grief & outrage & found ways to impact positively - the family of young Jesse James being a fairly recent example - but this cabinet-level response is atypical.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 6, 2019)

Patteran said:


> I made the original point, & deliberately swerved the word 'white' while highlighting class. The poor sod from Manchester Grammar School hasn't made headlines because of his (absent) whiteness - he's made headlines because he attended a top private school & was murdered on a road where every house costs around a million pounds. I understand why it's important to post counter-examples to challenge lazy thinking, easy narratives. But I stand by the original assertion - the victim in Hale has created more headlines, more calls for action, than previous murders in contexts where headline writers & politicians expect this to happen, & even apparently tolerate it happening. Knife crime has been on the rise in Mcr for years - this is the first time the story has gone national & prompted a visit from the Home Secretary (politicians responding to the coverage, rather than the causes). We have, of course, had community-based responses to the horror of teen murders that have gone beyond grief & outrage & found ways to impact positively - the family of young Jesse James being a fairly recent example - but this cabinet-level response is atypical.


yeh the white(ish) bit came from Dogsauce. the poor sod's alleged assailants are allegedly from the same privileged background, i hear, so that would be utterly unusual. and yeh it has garnered more publicity and (apparent) action, although there's been few days over the last year or two when knife crime has been wholly absent from the papers. i doubt you'll see a home secretary in manchester for many months to come, barring party conferences, and can only wish you would host him more often (not for more stabbings, just to get the cunt out of london).


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 6, 2019)

mojo pixy said:


> I'm reliably informed by an old school friend who recently suggested I move back to Portsmouth, that it's not as violent and scummy as it was when we were kids in the 70's-80's (and it was). I have to believe him, but I also wonder what difference it makes to be a well-to-do middle-aged father-of-three living in the suburbs, rather than a teenage lad at school in the city centre.


i'd have thought that parents know rather less than they believe of what their children experience or hear about.


----------



## mojo pixy (Mar 6, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> i'd have thought that parents know rather less than they believe of what their children experience or hear about.



I know my parents would have denied a lot of what happened around me, had I told them more of it. I don't think generations change much in this respect.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 6, 2019)

Treat knife crime like a disease - Javid

 

Treat knife crime like terrorism, urges MP

 



Any other offers? A war? A plague? An earthquake?


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 6, 2019)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Treat knife crime like a disease - Javid
> 
> View attachment 163710
> 
> ...


an asteroid strike

an unwelcome piece of junk mail (which is the level of urgency you're actually going to see)


----------



## ska invita (Mar 6, 2019)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Any other offers? A war? A plague? An earthquake?


A Something I DIdnt Give A Shit About Until Yesterday (and wont again next week)


----------



## extra dry (Mar 6, 2019)

I know one contriversul way would be, give every law abiding and able well trained indivuals on urban, guns and ammo. 

A school vfriend of mine was slahed a couple of days ago in Darlington, police told him to keep it quiet, as they have a lead or two.


----------



## pbsmooth (Mar 6, 2019)

yeah, that's worked really well in the US.


----------



## extra dry (Mar 6, 2019)

crojoe said:


> yeah, that's worked really well in the US.


Knife crime is everywhere, timeless, goes back to sticks and flint.

 Best solve the needs/drivers for carrying, treat survivours and preps as in need of social/mental/positive challenges stuff other than violence.


----------



## likesfish (Mar 6, 2019)

crojoe said:


> yeah, that's worked really well in the US.



tbf they aren't well trained or trained at all. remember on another board somebody asking for help as they brought a brand new AK 47 semiautomatic rifle but couldn't figure out how to make it go bang he'd managed to buy the wrong type of 7.62 ammo didn't even understand there were different types. Fortunately somebody lived nearby and took him to a range and installed some basic idea of safety in him


----------



## Saul Goodman (Mar 6, 2019)

There are some proper nasty cunts out there. They've always been out there but it seems there are a lot more of them these days. Maybe nastiness propagates through the internet, I dunno, but in the 90s, the craze was to carry a Stanley knife with 2 blades in it and a matchstick between the blades, so the wound would have to be sewn up between the 2 outer lacerations and would leave a proper scar. 
SIck fucks have always existed, and it seems they're always playing one-upmanship. Acid attacks are a prime example.


----------



## Humberto (Mar 7, 2019)

We are (although hopefully to a lesser extent nowadays) a society of racism. Of classism and formerly one of colonialism. This all needs to be thoroughly disowned rather than cherished. This is a state/society in which Windrush immigrants are told to 'go home', with little repercussion. This supposedly in a liberal democracy. I don't want to get into an argument about agency and criminal responsibility, not least because I'm not the one to attempt it. I do however think its fair to say that some sections of society, class stratas and indeed ethnicities are considered more important/worthy of attention than others.

If for example someone has a cultural background and an unusual or unfamiliar name to say, Tory voting baby-boomers, then they still carry that legacy of discrimination. Of that unabandoned British exceptionalism. So to bring it to the point, there are massive systemic and societal problems that are unreasonably unaddressed for fear of 'political correctness gone mad' narratives; and that doesn't give so many youngsters a fair chance, fair treatment. Decency is lacking in many quarters.


----------



## Saul Goodman (Mar 7, 2019)

Humberto said:


> ...Decency.


And therein lies the rub!
Decency? You think that anyone in power, be it labour/conservative, whatever, give the slightest flying fuck about 'US', the people? All we are is numbers and stats. That's what we need to realise.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Mar 7, 2019)

Patteran said:


> I made the original point, & deliberately swerved the word 'white' while highlighting class. The poor sod from Manchester Grammar School hasn't made headlines because of his (absent) whiteness - he's made headlines because he attended a top private school & was murdered on a road where every house costs around a million pounds. I understand why it's important to post counter-examples to challenge lazy thinking, easy narratives. But I stand by the original assertion - the victim in Hale has created more headlines, more calls for action, than previous murders in contexts where headline writers & politicians expect this to happen, & even apparently tolerate it happening.



 Once the slaughter crosses class boundaries then the debate takes on a greater urgency for sure. Race and class has problematised the pathetic debate over knife crime for ages.

Liberals are terrified to inquire into some of the blindingly obvious questions that arise for fear of committing racist thought crimes and instead limit their concerns to the impact of the return of stop and search whilst demanding more police. Conservatives can safely ignore the issue on the basis that its black kids in drug gangs in cities like Manchester and Birmingham. We had something like one fatal murder and three stabbing a week here last year and it largely went on without anyone outside of the communities impacted noticing and the media ascribing every death as ‘gang’ related


----------



## likesfish (Mar 7, 2019)

stanley knives and the traditional straight razor are horrible weapons but slashing is horrible and leaves scars stabbing is much more lethal  though.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 7, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Once the slaughter crosses class boundaries then the debate takes on a greater urgency for sure. Race and class has problematised the pathetic debate over knife crime for ages.
> 
> Liberals are terrified to inquire into some of the blindingly obvious questions that arise for fear of committing racist thought crimes and instead limit their concerns to the impact of the return of stop and search whilst demanding more police. Conservatives can safely ignore the issue on the basis that its black kids in drug gangs in cities like Manchester and Birmingham. We had something like one fatal murder and three stabbing a week here last year and it largely went on without anyone outside of the communities impacted noticing and the media ascribing every death as ‘gang’ related


According to Knife crime deaths at highest level since WW2 there've been 72 murders in brum in the last five years. So I'd be interested to know where you derive your one a week from


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 7, 2019)

likesfish said:


> stanley knives and the traditional straight razor are horrible weapons but slashing is horrible and leaves scars stabbing is much more lethal  though.


I still remember seeing a cop just outside brockwell park at the 20/10/90 anti-poll tax march who had a scar from the right hand corner of his mouth all up his cheek to his ear


----------



## Part 2 (Mar 7, 2019)

How common is it to get bail on a murder charge?

Teen charged with murdering grammar school pupil Yousef Makki released on bail


----------



## likesfish (Mar 7, 2019)

not very having rich parents helps. thats a seriously fucked up case posh kids tend not to murder one another.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 7, 2019)

Almost unheard of.


----------



## Part 2 (Mar 7, 2019)

Just been asking my lad about it. It all sounds a very odd set of circumstances if what's being said is to be believed.


----------



## Poi E (Mar 8, 2019)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Treat knife crime like a disease - Javid


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 8, 2019)

Part 2 said:


> Just been asking my lad about it. It all sounds a very odd set of circumstances if what's being said is to be believed.



Kids at the school are being warned of severe consequences if they speculate on social media about this case. Possibly best we heed that too.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 8, 2019)

Poi E said:


>


Cue Javid mangling Friday I'm in love


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 8, 2019)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Kids at the school are being warned of severe consequences if they speculate on social media about this case. Possibly best we heed that too.


Yeh after all the rich can afford libel lawyers


----------



## likesfish (Mar 8, 2019)

I'm pretty sure once you've murdered one of your classmates suing for libels going to be hard unless they accuse you of being a liberal Democrat as well


----------



## Part 2 (Mar 8, 2019)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Kids at the school are being warned of severe consequences if they speculate on social media about this case. Possibly best we heed that too.



Oh for sure, I had no plans.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 8, 2019)

Smokeandsteam where do you get your rather higher figures from?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Mar 8, 2019)

Came across this on iplyer this evening.



> *EastEnders: The Real Stories*
> BBC three uncovers the real stories behind the landmark EastEnders storyline, as told by six families who have each lost a child to knife crime.


 6 episodes available.
BBC iPlayer - EastEnders: The Real Stories


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Mar 11, 2019)

700 plus child victims of knife crime in the West Midlands and over 3,000 reported knife incidents last year. Some at primary school. Sobering facts for the ‘it’s just youth culture, move along’ proponents. Difficult questions too fo those who argue  ‘get more cops on the streets’ and addresses the motives and drivers of thie pathology:

Revealed: 700 child knife crime victims in West Midlands last year


----------



## Poi E (Mar 12, 2019)

England might do well to look north: How Scotland stemmed the tide of knife crime


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 12, 2019)

Poi E said:


> England might do well to look north: How Scotland stemmed the tide of knife crime


Yeh there was considerable discussion of the Scottish approach here some months ago


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 12, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> 700 plus child victims of knife crime in the West Midlands and over 3,000 reported knife incidents last year. Some at primary school. Sobering facts for the ‘it’s just youth culture, move along’ proponents. Difficult questions too fo those who argue  ‘get more cops on the streets’ and addresses the motives and drivers of thie pathology:
> 
> Revealed: 700 child knife crime victims in West Midlands last year


Could you say where you got your something like one fatal murder a week from in post 668 pls?


----------



## GarveyLives (Mar 25, 2019)

​


----------



## GarveyLives (May 25, 2019)

Footage of recent activity by Operation Shutdown:

*17 April 2019:*



​

*10 May 2019:*

​


----------



## Pickman's model (May 25, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> View attachment 163877
> Smokeandsteam where do you get your rather higher figures from?


Smokeandsteam


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 8, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Liberals are terrified to inquire into some of the blindingly obvious questions that arise for fear of committing racist thought crimes and instead limit their concerns to the impact of the return of stop and search whilst demanding more police. Conservatives can safely ignore the issue on the basis that its black kids in drug gangs in cities like Manchester and Birmingham.  We had something like one fatal murder and three stabbing a week here last year and it largely went on without anyone outside of the communities impacted noticing and the media ascribing every death as ‘gang’ related


Pls could you share your source which supplies murder figures more than seven times higher than the number of bodies the cops have found

I'm starting to think you made up your claim of a murder a week


----------



## Cid (Jun 8, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> Pls could you share your source which supplies murder figures more than seven times higher than the number of bodies the cops have found
> 
> I'm starting to think you made up your claim of a murder a week



Maybe they accidentally included the non-fatal murders.


----------



## GarveyLives (Aug 29, 2019)

This does not appear to be very responsible corporate behaviour:

*Tesco*, *Asda*, *Poundland* and *Home Bargains* illegally sold knives to children


----------



## GarveyLives (Sep 1, 2019)

On Friday 23 August 2019, Watford footballer, *Andre Gray* joined a protest outside Parliament on Friday - and accused government of "turning a blind eye" to violent attacks

Prem star *Andre Gray* says Boris Johnson 'will _never_ understand' knife crime







(Source: dailymail.co.uk)​
*Andre Gray thinks Boris Johnson's privileged background means he will never understand knife crime or poverty*​


----------



## GarveyLives (Sep 6, 2019)

GarveyLives said:


> This does not appear to be very responsible corporate behaviour:
> 
> *Tesco*, *Asda*, *Poundland* and *Home Bargains* illegally sold knives to children



From someone quite literally at the sharp end of the consequences of knife violence:

NHS chief condemns illegal trade in deadly 'zombie' knives and blasts shops for 'helping to murder teens' by selling the barbaric weapons






(Source: as stated in image)

*Martin Griffiths, the NHS's clinical director for violence reduction, has criticised retailers who are illegally selling knives to children for being ‘complicit’ in murder.*​


----------



## GarveyLives (Nov 28, 2019)

How tragic that child murders which were once considered extraordinary are now, in many cases, barely considered newsworthy:  

Damilola Taylor's father: Youth violence is now normalised in society






(Source: as stated in image)

*Rest in Peace*​


----------



## GarveyLives (Jul 21, 2020)

This rather tragic sounding case has been raised elsewhere (it remains unclear what it has to do with Brixton) - why and how this happened will, no doubt, be the subject of wider investigation, once the criminal trial has concluded:

*Hakim Sillah* death: Teen stabbed _at knife awareness course_


----------



## GarveyLives (Aug 6, 2020)

GarveyLives said:


> This rather tragic sounding case has been raised elsewhere (it remains unclear what it has to do with Brixton) - why and how this happened will, no doubt, be the subject of wider investigation, once the criminal trial has concluded:
> 
> *Hakim Sillah* death: Teen stabbed _at knife awareness course_


No doubt there will be an "inquiry", as a result of which we will hear about "lessons learned" ... 



> _"A teenager facing life in prison for stabbing a rival to death at a knife awareness course had been released from another knife crime sentence just five months earlier ..."_




Hakim Sillah murder: Killer *Vladimir Nachev* stabbed teenage victim with Rambo knife _just months after being released from jail_






(Source:  Metropolitan Police)​
*DCI Vicky Tunstall, of the Metropolitan Police'’s specialist crime command, said: “The search history on Nachev’s mobile phone, shortly before the fatal stabbing, demonstrates that he was a highly dangerous individual, who was intent on carrying out a violent attack. Hakim’s death is another tragic example of a young life lost at the hands of another young man, over a seemingly trivial matter.”*


----------



## GarveyLives (Jul 26, 2022)

> _"Children can buy cheap killer knives in high street stores *with shocking ease*, a Mirror investigation found.
> 
> Our 16-year-old undercover shopper Martha *was illegally sold big blades in 15 UK outlets*, some for the price of a soft drink ..."_






EXCLUSIVE: Killer knives sold to kids for price of fizzy drink with absolutely NO age checks


----------



## story (Jul 26, 2022)

Shocking and frightening as this is, I wonder if some shop keepers are bullied into selling knives? Maybe their children are bullied too? If they’re running a small local shop they’re pretty much a sitting target for bullying shoplifting and worse. 



Just done a Google search for “shopkeepers scared of gangs” and there’s loads of it, seems endemic.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 26, 2022)

Thinking an age limit will help is faintly ridiculous also. Given it’s mostly gang related the gang elders could simply arm those unable to purchase weapons.


----------



## NoXion (Jul 26, 2022)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Thinking an age limit will help is faintly ridiculous also. Given it’s mostly gang related the gang elders could simply arm those unable to purchase weapons.



Even if they couldn't buy them or have someone older do it for them, they can just nick them at the end of the day. If I'd had any inclination as a kid, I could have gone out pretty tooled up after raiding my mum's knife drawer.


----------



## ska invita (Jul 26, 2022)

kids in gangs can get guns, of course any kid can get a knife
stopping knives being sold is not the solution to this problem - it will make zero difference
you solve it by dealing with the root causes of child violence


----------



## Edie (Jul 26, 2022)

ska invita said:


> kids in gangs can get guns, of course any kid can get a knife
> stopping knives being sold is not the solution to this problem - it will make zero difference
> you solve it by dealing with the root causes of child violence


Except it’s entirely possible on a population level that this kind of intervention does work. You could argue that a minimum price per unit of alcohol doesn’t prevent alcoholism, but at the population level it certainly reduces alcohol morbidity and mortality.


----------



## ska invita (Jul 26, 2022)

Edie said:


> Except it’s entirely possible on a population level that this kind of intervention does work. You could argue that a minimum price per unit of alcohol doesn’t prevent alcoholism, but at the population level it certainly reduces alcohol morbidity and mortality.


i take your point, but kids can buy illegal drugs and all sorts - knives are ubiquitous -  of course they shouldnt be allowed to buy them, but a kid who wants a knife will get a knife.


----------



## Edie (Jul 26, 2022)

ska invita said:


> i take your point, but kids can buy illegal drugs and all sorts - knives are ubiquitous -  of course they shouldnt be allowed to buy them, but a kid who wants a knife will get a knife.


You’re missing the point. If a population wide intervention works, then clearly for _some_ young people it’s acting as a deterrent. 

Of course any young person determined or coerced to get a knife will be able to do so. At the other end of the spectrum, a young person who acts on impulse or who won’t pursue it if it’s difficult, might not.

A lot of lads seem to go through a fascination with knives stage in early teens. The majority will never own a knife tho, and it shouldn’t be easy for them to buy one. Lads scrap all the time, knives make it a totally different ball game.


----------



## ska invita (Jul 26, 2022)

Edie said:


> The majority will never own a knife tho, and it shouldn’t be easy for them to buy one.


i agree


----------



## bellaozzydog (Jul 26, 2022)

Edie said:


> Except it’s entirely possible on a population level that this kind of intervention does work. You could argue that a minimum price per unit of alcohol doesn’t prevent alcoholism, but at the population level it certainly reduces alcohol morbidity and mortality.


I agree with you that intervention can impact stats on a national level just wondering by how much. Some one has already pointed out the ubiquitous nature of knives 

To be rather cold about it it needs a cost benefit analysis and some pragmatism 

The only point of legal control of access to knives is at the retailer level. There is already legislation in place, according to this story this is just being ignored, do you harden up policing of retailers selling knives? More checks, more punative punishment for not doing age checks 


The proposed update (below) 





__





						Draft sentencing guidelines for underage sale of knives published – Sentencing
					





					www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk
				




_The proposed guideline for individuals provides for a range of non-custodial sentences, from discharge to high-level community order. The guideline for organisations provides for a range of fines from £500 to £1 million, with fines linked to turnover to make penalties proportionate to the size of organisation (organisations cannot be sentenced to custody or community orders).  _

None of it matters unless you are testing the system (trading standards doing test buys with kids)  and courts dishing out the correct tariff 

The country is going to shit, everything appears to be getting defunded including less sexy stuff like treading standards, the legal system is at collapse with backlogged cases, Barristers are rightly striking. 

“tougher legislation” if I’m being cynical is just a way of looking tough without measurably changing anything and without spending money on services and as some one else above said dealing with the root causes of child violence in society (vast quantities of money that have been culled from school, community social and youth services)


----------



## Edie (Jul 26, 2022)

bellaozzydog said:


> I agree with you that intervention can impact stats on a national level just wondering by how much. Some one has already pointed out the ubiquitous nature of knives
> 
> To be rather cold about it it needs a cost benefit analysis and some pragmatism
> 
> ...


Well you’ll get no argument from me about that


----------

