# Tory ex-Minister arrested on suspicion of rape



## MrCurry (Aug 2, 2020)

Conservative MP arrested on suspicion of rape
					

Police say the allegations relate to four separate incidents alleged to have taken place over six months.



					www.bbc.com
				




I wonder who this is.  How many ex-ministers in their 50s are still current Tory MPs? Alleged offences took place last year. 



> The Sunday Times, which first reported the story, said the complainant alleges that the MP assaulted her, forced her to have sex and left her so traumatised that she had to go to hospital.
> 
> <snip>
> 
> "These offences are alleged to have occurred at addresses in Westminster, Lambeth and Hackney between July 2019 and January 2020.


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## maomao (Aug 2, 2020)

MrCurry said:


> Conservative MP arrested on suspicion of rape
> 
> 
> Police say the allegations relate to four separate incidents alleged to have taken place over six months.
> ...


After May's government 'former minister' + 'man in fifties' covers a few dozen people I would think. Is it all over Twitter yet?


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## MrCurry (Aug 2, 2020)

maomao said:


> After May's government 'former minister' + 'man in fifties' covers a few dozen people I would think. Is it all over Twitter yet?



First thread I found on twitter says there are only three who fit the criteria provided in the Sunday Times piece.


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## maomao (Aug 2, 2020)

MrCurry said:


> First thread I found on twitter says there are only three who fit the criteria provided in the Sunday Times piece.


I've come up with two so far. Chris Grayling and Jeremy Hunt are both current MPs, ex ministers and in their fifties.


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## MickiQ (Aug 2, 2020)

maomao said:


> I've come up with two so far. Chris Grayling and Jeremy Hunt are both current MPs, ex ministers and in their fifties.


Sajid Javid also fits the description


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## platinumsage (Aug 2, 2020)

I know you can’t judge a book by its cover but...


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## Athos (Aug 2, 2020)

We should be careful here.  It's possible that naming the arrested MP will reveal the victim's identity.


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## MrCurry (Aug 2, 2020)

Athos said:


> We should be careful here.  It's possible that naming the arrested MP will reveal the victim's identity.


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## dessiato (Aug 2, 2020)

MrCurry said:


> Especially since they were apparently in a relationship together.


Not a relationship if you have to resort to rape. Just a nasty abuse of another person.


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## maomao (Aug 2, 2020)

Greg Clark, Liam Fox, Damian Hinds, David Mundell. There's more than 3 people that fit the description. That's at least seven (thereby making speculation on which one even more pointless). Twitter's full of shit.


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## SpookyFrank (Aug 2, 2020)

dessiato said:


> Not a relationship if you have to resort to rape. Just a nasty abuse of another person.



Most cases of rape are within relationships IIRC.


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## dessiato (Aug 2, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> Most cases of rape are within relationships IIRC.


Probably so. But I don't think that if you need to resort to rape it's much of a relationship.


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## maomao (Aug 2, 2020)

'Needing to resort to' is a very odd way of putting it. As if rape implies a lack of the ability to obtain sex 'properly' and that men have to have sex.


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## SpookyFrank (Aug 2, 2020)

maomao said:


> 'Needing to resort to' is a very odd way of putting it. As if rape implies a lack of the ability to obtain sex 'properly' and that men have to have sex.



Yes and I've heard versions of this along the lines of 'he wouldn't need to rape anyone, he could have any woman he wanted' used to dismiss allegations against men not seen as 'the type' who could be rapists. As if anyone needs to commit rape.


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## dessiato (Aug 2, 2020)

Badly worded on my part. I was trying to make the point that if you are in a relationship surely your consideration of that person would be such that, if your partner refused to have sex with you, you would be understanding of that. You would not force yourself on your partner against their wishes. If your partner means so little to you that you would rape them it is not a relationship worthy of the name.


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## SpookyFrank (Aug 2, 2020)

dessiato said:


> Badly worded on my part. I was trying to make the point that if you are in a relationship surely your consideration of that person would be such that, if your partner refused to have sex with you, you would be understanding of that. You would not force yourself on your partner against their wishes. If your partner means so little to you that you would rape them it is not a relationship worthy of the name.



I'd stop digging on this one if I were you.


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## MickiQ (Aug 2, 2020)

Athos said:


> We should be careful here.  It's possible that naming the arrested MP will reveal the victim's identity.


It's not going to be a secret for very long, there are going to be a lot of people attempting to find out who he is and the details of the accusations.
The days when the courts could gag a few newspapers have long gone.
Making any kind of accusation against a public figure is fraught with risk these days.
At least with ex-Ministers there is unlikely to be a swell of public opinion defending them.


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## Roadkill (Aug 2, 2020)

By my reckoning there are eight or nine MPs who fit the facts we know so far.


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## andysays (Aug 2, 2020)

BBC does include this though


> The Sunday Times reported that the allegations against the former minister were made by an ex-parliamentary employee.



(First part of original post removed)


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## MrCurry (Aug 2, 2020)

andysays said:


> Is that part of the original ST story, or is it from some random on Twitter? It certainly doesn't appear in the BBC's version of the story you opened with.
> 
> The BBC does include this though



Yes, unverified from Twitter, so you’re right, it should not be repeated as fact. My bad.


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## platinumsage (Aug 2, 2020)

Roadkill said:


> By my reckoning there are eight or nine MPs who fit the facts we know so far.



More than that I think. It doesn't have to be an ex- cabinet minster.


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## andysays (Aug 2, 2020)

MrCurry said:


> Yes, unverified from Twitter, so you’re right, it should not be repeated as fact. My bad.


In that case, you might consider going back and removing your mention of it, before we get dragged further down this particular rabbit hole


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## Roadkill (Aug 2, 2020)

platinumsage said:


> More than that I think. It doesn't have to be an ex- cabinet minster. But when you add two and two together, such as them not tweeting yesterday due to being in a police cell...



Re, the underlined bit, yes, I do know that.  If it did we'd be down to two or three.


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## MickiQ (Aug 2, 2020)

There are different grades of Ministers, there are Cabinet ones, junior ones, PPS. Saying ex-Minister I think makes most people assume Cabinet and there are indeed only three i can think of (and I know which of those three I would put money on) but it could be a dozen plus ( too much effort to draw up a list). 
But even the larger number isn't that great and I suspect come the end of this week we will all know who is accused and by whom.
The thing is if it turns out that they were having an affair then once again it is   probably going to come down to one person's word against another's.
That's the problem with rape accusations in relationships it always comes down to "She said Yes but we fell out and now she is saying she said No" and "I said No but he refused to listen".
I can see a ruined political career and an expensive divorce happening but not a jail sentence.


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## phillm (Aug 2, 2020)

Twitter seems to have got their man. An actual piece of filth I'll let you do your own digging  - but none of the names mentioned thus far.


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## kalidarkone (Aug 2, 2020)

dessiato said:


> Badly worded on my part. I was trying to make the point that if you are in a relationship surely your consideration of that person would be such that, if your partner refused to have sex with you, you would be understanding of that. You would not force yourself on your partner against their wishes. If your partner means so little to you that you would rape them it is not a relationship worthy of the name.


Rape is about entitlement and control.


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## Badgers (Aug 2, 2020)

Wonder why the Standard left out the words
'Tory minister' from the headline?


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## phillm (Aug 2, 2020)

Badgers said:


> Wonder why the Standard left out the words
> 'Tory minister' from the headline?



Maybe their lawyers warned them about jigsaw identification as he has been accused at this stage not charged. That said what's the point if the BBC et al have already jumped the gun. 

Edit - have read the link  - sloppy subbing I would have thought.


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## SpookyFrank (Aug 2, 2020)

Badgers said:


> Wonder why the Standard left out the words
> 'Tory minister' from the headline?




Why would a publication owned by Lord Evgeny of Lebedev omit such a detail? The mind fair boggles.


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## platinumsage (Aug 2, 2020)

phillm said:


> Twitter seems to have got their man. An actual piece of filth I'll let you do your own digging  - but none of the names mentioned thus far.



Have they fuck.

Some of them have even convinced themselves it’s the Prime Minister.


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## Badgers (Aug 2, 2020)

phillm said:


> Maybe their lawyers warned them about jigsaw identification as he has been accused at this stage not charged. That said what's the point if the BBC et al have already jumped the gun.
> 
> Edit - have read the link  - sloppy subbing I would have thought.





SpookyFrank said:


> Nah
> Why would a publication owned by Lord Evgeny of Lebedev omit such a detail? The mind fair boggles.


Possibly


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Aug 2, 2020)

I didn’t know that East Hampshire was a constituency.


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## brogdale (Aug 2, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> I didn’t know that East Hampshire was a constituency.


Every day is a school day!


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## phillm (Aug 2, 2020)

platinumsage said:


> Have they fuck.
> 
> Some of them have even convinced themselves it’s the Prime Minister.


I discounted him early on as he is a currently serving (Prime) Minister. I should have said the list is narrow and the 'aside sneery' jokes seem to be consistent and they chime with my own prejudices. Thank god for twitter I was late to the party of understanding it.


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## Ted Striker (Aug 2, 2020)

Guess Who: Tory Rapist special edition


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## JuanTwoThree (Aug 2, 2020)

'Presumption of innocence, let's not be hasty, besmirch an innocent man etc'

OTOH

'Goolies, cable ties, Westminster Bridge'


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## brogdale (Aug 2, 2020)

No Tory ex-minister is ever innocent.


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## Dogsauce (Aug 2, 2020)

Ted Striker said:


> Guess Who: Tory Rapist special edition



More like Cluedo really, if the rumours are correct.


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## maomao (Aug 2, 2020)

Dogsauce said:


> More like Cluedo really, if the rumours are correct.


That one's 64.


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## Badgers (Aug 2, 2020)

Spokesperson: 


> These are serious allegations and it is right that they are investigated fully. The Whip has not been suspended. This decision will be reviewed once the police investigation has been concluded.


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## brogdale (Aug 2, 2020)

Badgers said:


> Spokesperson:


Not consistent with May's (initial) response to the (now) convicted Elphicke:


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## equationgirl (Aug 2, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> Most cases of rape are within relationships IIRC.


I think it's more accurate to state that in most cases of rape, the rapist is known by the victim. But relationship implies some kind of romantic relationship and there's an awful lot of acquittance rape - the rapist and the victim know each other but are not necessarily involved in a romantic context. 

Stranger rape is not the most common type of rape, that's for sure.


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## SpookyFrank (Aug 2, 2020)

equationgirl said:


> I think it's more accurate to state that in most cases of rape, the rapist is known by the victim. But relationship implies some kind of romantic relationship and there's an awful lot of acquittance rape - the rapist and the victim know each other but are not necessarily involved in a romantic context.
> 
> Stranger rape is not the most common type of rape, that's for sure.



This is what I meant to say.


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## brogdale (Aug 2, 2020)

equationgirl said:


> I think it's more accurate to state that in most cases of rape, the rapist is known by the victim. But relationship implies some kind of romantic relationship and there's an awful lot of acquittance rape - the rapist and the victim know each other but are not necessarily involved in a romantic context.
> 
> Stranger rape is not the most common type of rape, that's for sure.


Any adjectival descriptors seem essentially redundant; it is what it is.


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## platinumsage (Aug 2, 2020)

I wouldn’t have thought they could suspend the whip without identifying him. Doesn’t seem much point either if parliament isn’t sitting, he’s in a cell, and a charging decision is due within hours. Just wait until then.


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## brogdale (Aug 2, 2020)

platinumsage said:


> I wouldn’t have thought they could suspend the whip without identifying him. Doesn’t seem much point either if parliament isn’t sitting, he’s in a cell, and a charging decision is due within hours. Just wait until then.


Of course they could suspend him without identification and announce that they'd done just that.


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## maomao (Aug 2, 2020)

They wouldn't even have to actually do anything as parliament isn't sitting. If he does somehow turn out to be innocent they could reinstate him equally discreetly.


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## andysays (Aug 2, 2020)

platinumsage said:


> I wouldn’t have thought they could suspend the whip without identifying him. Doesn’t seem much point either if parliament isn’t sitting, he’s in a cell, and a charging decision is due within hours. Just wait until then.


This is broadly correct although, as I understand it, he isn't in a cell, he's out on bail while they decide whether or not to charge.

As has already been mentioned, IDing him may also help to ID his victim, so it's something that should be done carefully and in an appropriate manner.


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## MickiQ (Aug 2, 2020)

platinumsage said:


> I wouldn’t have thought they could suspend the whip without identifying him. Doesn’t seem much point either if parliament isn’t sitting, he’s in a cell, and a charging decision is due within hours. Just wait until then.


He is highly unlikely to be sitting in a cell, he will have probably spent a couple of hours sitting in one waiting for his brief but that's all, he will have been interviewed and told to return at a given time but I can't imagine he has been detained, whoever he is, he's not a threat to public safety nor a likely flight risk so the plod will have no grounds to  detain him.
And much though I understand the sentiment that Tory Minister is just a fancy word for bastard, he hasn't yet been tried and convicted of anything so why should he expelled from the Tory Party yet?


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## equationgirl (Aug 2, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Any adjectival descriptors seem essentially redundant; it is what it is.


I'm not getting in a debate about descriptors, I was clarifying what spookyfrank said about most rape happening in s relationship.

Rape is rape, no matter how it's described.


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## brogdale (Aug 2, 2020)

MickiQ said:


> And much though I understand the sentiment that Tory Minister is just a fancy word for bastard, he hasn't yet been tried and convicted of anything so why should he expelled from the Tory Party yet?


That's not even the justification the vermin have offered; they've said something vacuous about Police enquiries concluding or something.
Anyhow, the most recent precedent, set initially by May, was quite different; Elphicke was suspended PDQ.


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## MickiQ (Aug 2, 2020)

brogdale said:


> That's not even the justification the vermin have offered; they've said something vacuous about Police enquiries concluding or something.
> Anyhow, the most recent precedent, set initially by May, was quite different; Elphicke was suspended PDQ.
> 
> View attachment 224779


Much though it might stick in the craw to say this, they don't have to justify it. All they do have to is not interfere in the police investigations.  They're not bound by precedents, Tory Party rules aren't the same things as laws.
Boris has no doubt been fully briefed on this and the decision will be made to do whatever they might think is best for the Tory Party. Which will probably be to do nothing but leave it to plod and see what happens. I doubt they are trying to protect him why should they? It won't alter their huge majority, probably won't even cost them the seat though it will probably have a different bum on it eventually.


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## Badgers (Aug 2, 2020)




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## Cid (Aug 2, 2020)

brogdale said:


> That's not even the justification the vermin have offered; they've said something vacuous about Police enquiries concluding or something.
> Anyhow, the most recent precedent, set initially by May, was quite different; Elphicke was suspended PDQ.
> 
> View attachment 224779



Then reinstated when May needed his vote.


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## brogdale (Aug 2, 2020)

Cid said:


> Then reinstated when May needed his vote.


Yep.


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## brogdale (Aug 2, 2020)

MickiQ said:


> Much though it might stick in the craw to say this, they don't have to justify it. All they do have to is not interfere in the police investigations.  They're not bound by precedents, Tory Party rules aren't the same things as laws.
> Boris has no doubt been fully briefed on this and the decision will be made to do whatever they might think is best for the Tory Party. Which will probably be to do nothing but leave it to plod and see what happens. I doubt they are trying to protect him why should they? It won't alter their huge majority, probably won't even cost them the seat though it will probably have a different bum on it eventually.


True, just that they've nothing to lose in suspending. The decision not to do so is obviously deliberate.


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## SpookyFrank (Aug 2, 2020)

brogdale said:


> True, just that they've nothing to lose in suspending. The decision not to do so is obviously deliberate.



Suggests it's someone they want to keep inside the tent. Or that they just have no reason to give a fuck.


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## existentialist (Aug 2, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> Suggests it's someone they want to keep inside the tent. Or that they just have no reason to give a fuck.


Well, they're Tories - of course they don't give a fuck. I'd be willing to bet that a sizeable handful of senior Tories are operating on the basis that the victim somehow had it coming to her - she was probably wearing the wrong clothes, or was a feminist, or some such.


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## MickiQ (Aug 2, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> Suggests it's someone they want to keep inside the tent. Or that they just have no reason to give a fuck.


They give plenty of fucks just not about the accused or accuser, May was in a difficult position with Elphicke, she was the leader of an unpopular minority government that was teetering from one crisis to the next, she probably felt that she needed to be seen to be doing the right thing (especially given she was a woman herself) and couldn't be seen to be soft on someone accused of serious crimes. Yet at the same time she was struggling to make every vote count in the middle of one political crisis afer another.
(Not that I have any sympathy for her of course)
BoZo has no such problems, he was elected less than a year ago on a wave of popular support (my keyboard shakes as I type that) with an unshakeable majority and over 4 years before it will be challenged. He can afford to let it play out, I don't think he will try and protect someone. Boris is a twat but he is a shrewd political operator and cares mostly for himself. This is a far more serious accusation than going for a 60 mile long eyesight test. If it goes to trial and the guy gets convicted then not a finger will be lifted to save him.


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## MickiQ (Aug 2, 2020)

existentialist said:


> Well, they're Tories - of course they don't give a fuck. I'd be willing to bet that a sizeable handful of senior Tories are operating on the basis that the victim somehow had it coming to her - she was probably wearing the wrong clothes, or was a feminist, or some such.


Sadly I am sure you absolutely right there are a lot of men who think that way period not just senior Tories and it is a stain on our sex that there are.


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## existentialist (Aug 2, 2020)

MickiQ said:


> Sadly I am sure you absolutely right there are a lot of men who think that way period not just senior Tories and it is a stain on our sex that there are.


I think they are probably disproportionately represented within the ranks of the fairly notoriously reactionary Tory MPs, though.


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## equationgirl (Aug 2, 2020)

existentialist said:


> Well, they're Tories - of course they don't give a fuck. I'd be willing to bet that a sizeable handful of senior Tories are operating on the basis that the victim somehow had it coming to her - she was probably wearing the wrong clothes, or was a feminist, or some such.


You forgot wearing makeup, had flirted before, was asking for it etc


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## platinumsage (Aug 2, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Of course they could suspend him without identification and announce that they'd done just that.



No, you can't suspend an MP, remove them from the party machinery, without revealing their identity to people who would previously have been unaware. If their identity needs to be kept from the public to avoid identifying the victim, then you don't suspend them unless and until they are charged or their identity is otherwise made public.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Aug 2, 2020)

If you are arrested for an offence such as this there is no reason why your employment should be affected unless it involves children/vulnerable groups, no? Once charged it becomes something else, that is the point at which he will be named (unless naming him makes it obvious who his victim is) and an employer would be free to suspend if not fire him.


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## brogdale (Aug 2, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> If you are arrested for an offence such as this there is no reason why your employment should be affected unless it involves children/vulnerable groups, no? Once charged it becomes something else, that is the point at which he will be named (unless naming him makes it obvious who his victim is) and an employer would be free to suspend if not fire him.


Suspension from a political party does not prevent an MP from fulfilling their role, assuming they're not in custody. It does, though, act as some form of institutional damage limitation/'fire-wall' for the party.


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## brogdale (Aug 2, 2020)

platinumsage said:


> No, you can't suspend an MP, remove them from the party machinery, without revealing their identity to people who would previously have been unaware. If their identity needs to be kept from the public to avoid identifying the victim, then you don't suspend them unless and until they are charged or their identity is otherwise made public.


I can see that argument if Parliament were sitting.


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## two sheds (Aug 2, 2020)

they could put him on double secret probation


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## brogdale (Aug 2, 2020)

Even if the cunt gets acquitted, if the party had suspended him, they'd be be able to point to the fact that they'd done the responsible thing. As it stands they just look like the rapey apologists that they are.


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## DexterTCN (Aug 2, 2020)




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## Bahnhof Strasse (Aug 2, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Suspension from a political party does not prevent an MP from fulfilling their role, assuming they're not in custody. It does, though, act as some form of institutional damage limitation/'fire-wall' for the party.



No, but it sails along the same line as employment and if it turns out to be utter bollocks then it would be good to follow the protocol of companies than employ people.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Aug 2, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Even if the cunt gets acquitted, if the party had suspended him, they'd be bale to point to the fact that they'd done the responsible thing. As it stands they just look like the rapey apologists that they are.



Most people arrested on a Saturday for rape, questioned for x number of hours and bailed, they probably would go to work on Monday and not mention it. The shit would hit the fan later when charged.


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## phillm (Aug 2, 2020)

DexterTCN said:


>



I just noticed that why would someone do that ?

Here's the full list of current male tory mps ex ministers in their 50s.


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## Supine (Aug 2, 2020)

DexterTCN said:


>




Fake news. Reading that Twitter link takes about ten seconds to debunk it


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## phillm (Aug 2, 2020)

Supine said:


> Fake news. Reading that Twitter link takes about ten seconds to debunk it


Correct he is alive and kicking. Some 'wag' has put up a fake Facebook account and then set it to private and then shared it on Twatter.









						Mark Francois
					

Mark Francois. 9,363 likes · 178 talking about this. Politician




					www.facebook.com
				




I've spent a little time looking through his FB account and I now feel very dirty and not in a good way. 

As ever the sleuths of Reddit are on the case.


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## DexterTCN (Aug 2, 2020)

Supine said:


> Fake news. Reading that Twitter link takes about ten seconds to debunk it


Or you could just link to his account.


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## cupid_stunt (Aug 2, 2020)

Supine said:


> Fake news. Reading that Twitter link takes about ten seconds to debunk it



Hardly surprising, coming from urban's number one thick as shit, misogynistic, racist, and convicted rapist hero worshipper, poster.


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## phillm (Aug 2, 2020)

DexterTCN said:


> Or you could just link to his account.


Someone should tip him off he's tweeting fake news or it could bring into question all his other news/views.


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## Supine (Aug 2, 2020)

DexterTCN said:


> Or you could just link to his account.



Or you could. I didn't post the link!


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## DexterTCN (Aug 2, 2020)

Supine said:


> Or you could. I didn't post the link!


Although these things are always fluid and social media moves quickly, and things can certainly be debunked...I looked myself for his twitter account and couldn't find it.  You said that you were on twitter and had confirmed it was not true.   But you didn't link to his account as the simplest of proof.  I'm certainly willing to accept I can fuck up a search like that.

I don't really use facebook.


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## AmateurAgitator (Aug 2, 2020)

Well, we know Elphicke is guilty, just have to see about his sentencing: Ex-MP Charlie Elphicke convicted of sexual assault


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## platinumsage (Aug 2, 2020)

DexterTCN said:


> Although these things are always fluid and social media moves quickly, and things can certainly be debunked...I looked myself for his twitter account and couldn't find it.  You said that you were on twitter and had confirmed it was not true.   But you didn't link to his account as the simplest of proof.  I'm certainly willing to accept I can fuck up a search like that.
> 
> I don't really use facebook.



He doesn’t have a twitter account and never has.






						MPs on Twitter
					

MPs on Twitter: an interactive tool for exploring the ways in which Members of UK Parliament use the social media website Twitter.




					www.mpsontwitter.co.uk


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## phillm (Aug 2, 2020)

Once many moons ago I had an opportunity to go with a friend who was friendly with a female researcher of a south coast Tory MP in the strangers' bar. The young women were all classically 'English Rose beautiful' and the young men Adonii whilst the few MP's that came into the bar  (all-male that night) and went mostly looked like some dystopian extras from a zombie movie - coupled with faces flushed with the red hue of a claret well served with a peacocking strut.


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## brogdale (Aug 2, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> No, but it sails along the same line as employment and if it turns out to be utter bollocks then it would be good to follow the protocol of companies than employ people.


MPs are not employed by the parties they represent, though.


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## brogdale (Aug 2, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Most people arrested on a Saturday for rape, questioned for x number of hours and bailed, they probably would go to work on Monday and not mention it. The shit would hit the fan later when charged.


Most people are not elected representatives presuming to govern their fellow citizens.


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## not a trot (Aug 2, 2020)

phillm said:


> I just noticed that why would someone do that ?
> 
> Here's the full list of current male tory mps ex ministers in their 50s.
> 
> View attachment 224789



And everyone of them qualifies as being a dodgy cunt.


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## Puddy_Tat (Aug 2, 2020)

not a trot said:


> And everyone of them qualifies as being a dodgy cunt.



isn't it an occupational requirement of being a tory MP?


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## Badgers (Aug 3, 2020)

Would Mogg have known about this for a while? Perhaps before the police?


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## phillm (Aug 3, 2020)

Badgers said:


> Would Mogg have known about this for a while? Perhaps before the police?


From the Reddit link above. 


> _There are also reports that the Conservative Party's chief whip, Mark Spencer, had been aware of allegations - and previously spoke with the alleged victim_


_That's the real scandal for me

Rees Mogg also knew about it. Another MP raised the issue with him and Spencer, according to The Times.

It's also a criminal offense not to report this to the police - when will he be arrested?_


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## maomao (Aug 3, 2020)

phillm said:


> From the Reddit link above.
> 
> _That's the real scandal for me
> 
> ...


I'm pretty sure it's not a criminal offence not to report a crime to the police.


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## existentialist (Aug 3, 2020)

maomao said:


> I'm pretty sure it's not a criminal offence not to report a crime to the police.


I'm pretty sure you're right. But, for a political party which just _loves _to wave the law'n'order stick around, it's a pretty poor show when the behaviour implies that it's only other people's misbehaviour you're concerned about, and not those in your own group.


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## brogdale (Aug 3, 2020)

There's a reason that the vermin have no developed or published safeguarding policy; it's how they've always tried to hose down scandals by leaning on victims.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 3, 2020)

existentialist said:


> I'm pretty sure you're right. But, for a political party which just _loves _to wave the law'n'order stick around...



That's never held any water though. The law has always been for the peons, not for them.


----------



## phillm (Aug 3, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> That's never held any water though. The law has always been for the peons, not for them.


The Assange/Andrew paradox.


----------



## Badgers (Aug 3, 2020)

Disgraced Prime Minister Johnson removed the whip from 21 rebel MP's to punish them for voting to block a no-deal Brexit, 

He has not suspended the Tory MP accused of rape.


----------



## Badgers (Aug 3, 2020)

Tory chief whip and Jacob Rees Mogg 'sat on Tory MP rape allegation for a month' before police involved
					

A former Tory minister has been arrested on suspicion of rape. Sky News understands the MP was accused by a young woman who used to work in parliament.He was arrested and taken to an east London police station on Saturday morning and was released on bail on Saturday night. A police statement...




					dorseteye.com


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 3, 2020)

Badgers said:


> Disgraced Prime Minister Johnson removed the whip from 21 rebel MP's to punish them for voting to block a no-deal Brexit,
> 
> He has not suspended the Tory MP accused of rape.


obvs political offences worse for him than criminal ones


----------



## rasputin (Aug 3, 2020)

maomao said:


> I'm pretty sure it's not a criminal offence not to report a crime to the police.



Not quite true.  It's a criminal offence not to report suspicion of money laundering, for example. But that's a rare exception as it is, of course, so much more serious than any other crime.


----------



## Chilli.s (Aug 3, 2020)

rasputin said:


> Not quite true.  It's a criminal offence not to report suspicion of money laundering, for example. But that's a rare exception as it is, of course, so much more serious than any other crime.


Unless it's by Russian friends, then it's all tickety boo.


----------



## Streathamite (Aug 3, 2020)

Athos said:


> We should be careful here.  It's possible that naming the arrested MP will reveal the victim's identity.


err yea, ffs, careful people - you may also land U75 in the legal shit


----------



## killer b (Aug 3, 2020)

I don't think there's an angle here that the party has done anything criminal by not reporting it - it's for the victim to decide whether they want to report their rape, and considering the likelyhood of a successful conviction who could blame them if they choose not to bother?


----------



## Badgers (Aug 3, 2020)

rasputin said:


> Not quite true.  It's a criminal offence not to report suspicion of money laundering, for example. But that's a rare exception as it is, of course, so much more serious than any other crime.


With this disgraced government?


----------



## phillm (Aug 3, 2020)

not a trot said:


> And everyone of them qualifies as being a dodgy cunt.


Though apparently only 4 are regarded as 'senior' not difficult to guess which ones.


----------



## redsquirrel (Aug 3, 2020)

Need to be very careful here.
There is nothing in the Times story about Rees-Mogg


> The alleged victim of a senior Conservative MP arrested on suspicion of raping a former parliamentary aide has said that she was “devastated” that he was not suspended from the party.
> 
> Mark Spencer, the chief whip, is understood to have decided not to take immediate action against the MP until the police investigation was concluded.
> 
> ...



BBC has


> There are also reports that the Conservative Party's chief whip, Mark Spencer, had been aware of allegations - and previously spoke with the alleged victim.
> 
> According to sources, Mr Spencer had not known the "magnitude" of the allegations.
> 
> ...



And Guardian


> In the latest case, a fellow Conservative MP first raised the woman’s allegation with Mark Spencer, the chief whip, and Jacob Rees-Mogg, the leader of the House of Commons, after speaking to the alleged victim a month ago.
> 
> Questions will also be raised about the conduct of Spencer, who spoke to the woman directly but took no action, according to the Sunday Times.
> 
> ...


----------



## Badgers (Aug 3, 2020)




----------



## Raheem (Aug 3, 2020)

maomao said:


> I'm pretty sure it's not a criminal offence not to report a crime to the police.


There might be a bit of assisting an offender in the mix though, not that it would ever be pursued.


----------



## killer b (Aug 3, 2020)

Raheem said:


> There might be a bit of assisting an offender in the mix though.


there really isn't.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Aug 3, 2020)

maomao said:


> Greg Clark, Liam Fox, Damian Hinds, David Mundell. There's more than 3 people that fit the description. That's at least seven (thereby making speculation on which one even more pointless). Twitter's full of shit.



I think that you can remove Mundell from the list.


----------



## brogdale (Aug 3, 2020)

killer b said:


> there really isn't.


This won't help the vermin convince otherwise:









						Cabinet minister 'lobbied Boris Johnson to help Charlie Elphicke'
					

Exclusive: PM ‘initially sympathetic’ but was warned against helping MP who was last week convicted of sexual assault




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Sasaferrato (Aug 3, 2020)

Badgers said:


> Spokesperson:



Whereas I agree the whip should be withdrawn, this would immediately identify the complainant. That said, if he is charged then the person will be identified. Awkward one this.


----------



## brogdale (Aug 3, 2020)

Sasaferrato said:


> Whereas I agree the whip should be withdrawn, this would immediately identify the complainant. That said, if he is charged then the person will be identified. Awkward one this.


In a recess I don't see why the party could not have suspended the whip without naming (if that is appropriate?) and announcing to the world that they'd done the decent thing.


----------



## killer b (Aug 3, 2020)

brogdale said:


> This won't help the vermin convince otherwise:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sure, but it's silly to have half the thread wondering whether the party has a legal case to answer to over not reporting it, when they don't. They have a moral case to answer if - as it looks like - they just sat on it and did fuck all. But that's a different thing.


----------



## brogdale (Aug 3, 2020)

killer b said:


> Sure, but it's silly to have half the thread wondering whether the party has a legal case to answer to over not reporting it, when they don't. They have a moral case to answer if - as it looks like - they just sat on it and did fuck all. But that's a different thing.


Yep, all fair.


----------



## brogdale (Aug 3, 2020)

On the face of it, their apparent reluctance to do the obviously political 'right thing', can only worsen the problems they have with women voters.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Aug 3, 2020)

maomao said:


> I'm pretty sure it's not a criminal offence not to report a crime to the police.



Indeed. Drive twenty miles, then spend a week reporting everyone who was over the speed limit, including yourself.


----------



## brogdale (Aug 3, 2020)

Sasaferrato said:


> Indeed. Drive twenty miles, then spend a week reporting everyone who was over the speed limit, including yourself.


Rather than attempting to draw some parallel between rape and speeding offences, it might be more useful to consider why an organisation  presuming to be a national political party appears to have no established protocols regarding a duty of care/advice about disclosure to anyone making such a serious allegation against one of their members.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Aug 3, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Rather than attempting to draw some parallel between rape and speeding offences, it might be more useful to consider why an organisation  presuming to be a national political party appears to have no established protocols regarding a duty of care/advice about disclosure to anyone making such a serious allegation against one of their members.




its not like this is something new for them either


----------



## existentialist (Aug 3, 2020)

Raheem said:


> There might be a bit of assisting an offender in the mix though, not that it would ever be pursued.


Nah. The worst it will ever be is a bit of iffy PR, and that's the long and short of it.


----------



## maomao (Aug 3, 2020)

Sasaferrato said:


> I think that you can remove Mundell from the list.


Maybe he's a closet heterosexual. You never know with Tories cause they lie about everything.


----------



## Badgers (Aug 3, 2020)




----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 3, 2020)

Chilli.s said:


> Unless it's by Russian friends, then it's all tickety boo.



Or HSBC...









						HSBC escaped US money-laundering charges after Osborne's intervention
					

UK chancellor and a British banking regulator warned of ‘global financial disaster’ if bank were prosecuted, House report says




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## agricola (Aug 3, 2020)

killer b said:


> I don't think there's an angle here that the party has done anything criminal by not reporting it - it's for the victim to decide whether they want to report their rape, and considering the likelyhood of a successful conviction who could blame them if they choose not to bother?



Thats true, but the problem some (the Chief Whip especially) might have is that they are technically ministers.  

Crown servants (including ministers) are covered by misconduct in a public office; failing to do something about something they are aware of (when it forms part of their public duties) is something that they could, in theory, be held criminally liable for.


----------



## Roadkill (Aug 3, 2020)

agricola said:


> Thats true, but the problem some (the Chief Whip especially) might have is that they are technically ministers.
> 
> Crown servants (including ministers) are covered by misconduct in a public office; failing to do something about something they are aware of (when it forms part of their public duties) is something that they could, in theory, be held criminally liable for.



_Quis custodiet ipsos custodes_...

Or, to put it more elegantly, not bloody likely.


----------



## brogdale (Aug 3, 2020)

I'll be honest; I've read through loads of this poster's timeline & I really can't decide if its parody or not. If not...how dumb.


----------



## Roadkill (Aug 3, 2020)

brogdale said:


> I'll be honest; I've read through loads of this poster's timeline & I really can't decide if its parody or not. If not...how dumb.


----------



## splonkydoo (Aug 3, 2020)

In one sense... no surprise the Chief Whip or JRM weren't forthcoming on this to the authorities. Even with a large governing majority, it's not beyond these pricks to use  issues like this as leverage against their own.


----------



## Gerry1time (Aug 3, 2020)

brogdale said:


> MPs are not employed by the parties they represent, though.



I remember asking my then local MP years ago what happens if he has to go off sick. Does he have to drop the Queen a line to let her know he won't be in that day? Turns out he just had to let one of the whips know.


----------



## maomao (Aug 4, 2020)

Gerry1time said:


> I remember asking my then local MP years ago what happens if he has to go off sick. Does he have to drop the Queen a line to let her know he won't be in that day? Turns out he just had to let one of the whips know.


Whips are just line managers.


----------



## brogdale (Aug 4, 2020)

Like much of our constitutional arrangements, the employment status of MPs is not well defined; the best that Parliament can express is that their employment status is somewhat like office holders with a 'stipend':



That said, they represent private organisations called parties and, as such, should be bound by the safeguarding/duty of care protocols developed by those institutions. This is where the vermin appear deliberately unprepared as it has always suited them to hush up offending to save repetitional damage and then allow the whips to hold the knowledge with the potential to weaponise in tight 3 line votes etc.


----------



## MrCurry (Aug 4, 2020)

brogdale said:


> I'll be honest; I've read through loads of this poster's timeline & I really can't decide if its parody or not. If not...how dumb.
> 
> View attachment 224902





Roadkill said:


>




Just about batshitcrazy enough to be heavily involved in a local association.


----------



## phillm (Aug 4, 2020)

In the twisdom of crowds the rumours seem to have coalesced around one particular odious slug.


----------



## Raheem (Aug 4, 2020)

Just follow the trail of slime.


----------



## moomoo (Aug 4, 2020)

phillm said:


> In the twisdom of crowds the rumours seem to have coalesced around one particular odious slug.



That doesn’t exactly narrow it down tbf...


----------



## killer b (Aug 4, 2020)

He means Francois, but I don't believe it - he's just so hateful and gross they all just want it to be him.


----------



## phillm (Aug 4, 2020)

moomoo said:


> That doesn’t exactly narrow it down tbf...


He's normally very gobby but has gone deadly quiet. Maybe he's on holiday. That said Cold War Steve has given IDS a rare star billing probably some other context I have missed.

Edit this  *and yet here is Iain Duncan Smith arguing against the withdrawal agreement he voted for because HE DIDN'T KNOW WHAT HE VOTED FOR  *


----------



## phillm (Aug 6, 2020)

_ Ed: nope. No 'here's a clue' nonsense.  _


----------



## editor (Aug 6, 2020)

*DON'T POST UP YOUR FUCKING GUESSES*. Jeez.


----------



## phillm (Aug 7, 2020)

editor said:


> *DON'T POST UP YOUR FUCKING GUESSES*. Jeez.


Sincere apologies Ed, a contrite lesson learned I should have known better and appreciated the risks you have running a wonderful board such as this.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 7, 2020)

phillm said:


> Sincere apologies Ed, a contrite lesson learned I should have known better and appreciated the risks you have running a wonderful board such as this.


Keep your guesses to pms like everyone else


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 7, 2020)

phillm said:


> He's normally very gobby but has gone deadly quiet. Maybe he's on holiday. That said Cold War Steve has given IDS a rare star billing probably some other context I have missed.
> 
> Edit this  *and yet here is Iain Duncan Smith arguing against the withdrawal agreement he voted for because HE DIDN'T KNOW WHAT HE VOTED FOR  *
> 
> View attachment 225072


The sign should danger don't let any of the former tory  ministers into your car


----------



## Buddy Bradley (Aug 7, 2020)

killer b said:


> He means Francois, but I don't believe it - he's just so hateful and gross they all just want it to be him.


Unfortunate for the person running the amusing parody Twitter account if it is.


----------



## killer b (Aug 7, 2020)

Anyone running a twitter parody account deserves a punch in the face


----------



## Teaboy (Aug 7, 2020)

Well, I for one am looking forward to the Rose Garden press conference when the man in question explains that it was just a simple case of needing to check that his cock still works.


----------



## Streathamite (Aug 8, 2020)

killer b said:


> He means Francois, but I don't believe it - he's just so hateful and gross they all just want it to be him.


Francois has never been a minister though....


----------



## maomao (Aug 8, 2020)

Streathamite said:


> Francois has never been a minister though....


He was minister for the armed forces until they realised he was too thick for a proper job. Though several sources have said 'a senior minister' which would seem to rule him out.


----------



## existentialist (Aug 8, 2020)

maomao said:


> He was minister for the armed forces until they realised he was too thick for a proper job.


You wouldn't have thought it'd have taken them long to realise that...


----------



## maomao (Aug 8, 2020)

existentialist said:


> You wouldn't have thought it'd have taken them long to realise that...


Have you seen the rest of the tory party?


----------



## existentialist (Aug 8, 2020)

maomao said:


> Have you seen the rest of the tory party?


Ah. Fair point. Yes, it has turned into a bit of a cretinocracy


----------



## Streathamite (Aug 8, 2020)

maomao said:


> He was minister for the armed forces until they realised he was too thick for a proper job. Though several sources have said 'a senior minister' which would seem to rule him out.


ahh....didn't realise that. ta for the heads-up


----------



## Raheem (Aug 8, 2020)

maomao said:


> He was minister for the armed forces until they realised he was too thick for a proper job. Though several sources have said 'a senior minister' which would seem to rule him out.


What's a _senior minister_, though, except someone some people will have heard of? If we were talking about a cabinet minister, we would probably know that by now.


----------



## tim (Aug 8, 2020)

killer b said:


> He means Francois, but I don't believe it - he's just so hateful and gross they all just want it to be him.




I can't believe that any Prime Minister, however Tory, however desperate, thought the idiot capable of managing a ministerial portfolio, but they did.


----------



## maomao (Aug 8, 2020)

Raheem said:


> What's a _senior minister_, though, except someone some people will have heard of? If we were talking about a cabinet minister, we would probably know that by now.


Well minister for armed forces is junior to secretary of state for defence so I took it as meaning that.


----------



## killer b (Aug 8, 2020)

tim said:


> I can't believe that any Prime Minister, however Tory, however desperate, thought the idiot capable of managing a ministerial portfolio, but they did.


You're talking about a government that includes Gavin Williamson and Liz Truss in senior roles, remember


----------



## Raheem (Aug 8, 2020)

maomao said:


> Well minister for armed forces is junior to secretary of state for defence so I took it as meaning that.


Except it must not do, or he would have been described somewhere as a cabinet minister.


----------



## Badgers (Aug 8, 2020)

Paywall but enough info:









						Whips knew of concerns about rape suspect Tory MP ‘for years’
					

The Conservative whips’ office has been aware of concerns relating to the alleged behaviour of the MP arrested last weekend on suspicion of rape dating back to 2010, The Times understands.Multiple sources claimed that ministers had to intervene to “manage” his conduct in 2016 and 2019. Present




					www.thetimes.co.uk
				






> The Conservative whips’ office has been aware of concerns relating to the alleged behaviour of the MP arrested last weekend on suspicion of rape dating back to 2010, The Times understands.
> 
> Multiple sources claimed that ministers had to intervene to “manage” his conduct in 2016 and 2019. Present and former parliamentary workers claimed that he had also allegedly been involved in inappropriate behaviour at a party conference. They claim he was considered to be erratic in his dealings with colleagues, crass and quick to anger.


----------



## Badgers (Aug 8, 2020)

Still. There were a few desperate people in a dinghy keeping the media busy.


----------



## Dogsauce (Aug 8, 2020)

Can we thus assume an MP since at least 2010? Does that narrow the field at all? Nor that I’m too curious as to who it is (and a little amused by how much some people on Twitter etc. want it to be one particular person even though probably not them).


----------



## Raheem (Aug 8, 2020)

The Times said:
			
		

> They claim he was considered to be erratic in his dealings with colleagues, crass and quick to anger.


Can't be who I thought it was, then.


----------



## Sprocket. (Aug 8, 2020)

Appalled as I am that this has happened, I am less appalled that the Tories brushed it under the carpet and kept a lid on it.


----------



## phillm (Aug 8, 2020)

Sprocket. said:


> Appalled as I am that this has happened, I am less appalled that the Tories brushed it under the carpet and kept a lid on it.


And by all accounts as far as we know, the victim still has to work in  Westminster with her rapist who hospitalised her. The sooner the police finish their initial investigations and arrest the culprit if there is a case to answer for the better. On Twitter apart from the obvious name that keeps occurring he isn't an ex 'senior' minister no other names are bubbling up with any veracity. Which means the police/journalists and those in the know are keeping tighter than a duck's arse on this which is unusual as thousands must know and leaks like shit usually happens. 

*The Times article in full ...*


The Conservative whips’ office has been aware of concerns relating to the alleged behaviour of the MP arrested last weekend on suspicion of rape dating back to 2010, The Times understands.

Multiple sources claimed that ministers had to intervene to “manage” his conduct in 2016 and 2019. Present and former parliamentary workers claimed that he had also allegedly been involved in inappropriate behaviour at a party conference. They claim he was considered to be erratic in his dealings with colleagues, crass and quick to anger.

However, two sources close to the MP said they had not been aware of any alleged sexual impropriety before last week and were surprised by his arrest.

A Conservative Party spokeswoman said: “As there is a police investigation, it would be inappropriate to comment.”

The former minister was arrested last Saturday after a former parliamentary aide accused him of assault and sexual offences. The woman, in her early twenties, took her allegations to Mark Spencer, the chief whip, in April. She claims that he took no action and did not encourage her to contact the police.

It is understood that Mr Spencer does not believe that she reported a sexual assault to him in their conversation but acknowledges that she reported abusive behaviour and threats. Once the police became involved, the Tory party made clear he would not be suspended while the allegations were investigated, attracting criticism from MPs, trade unions and women’s charities.

The Conservatives defended their procedures, with a spokeswoman saying: “We take any complaint incredibly seriously. We have a code of conduct where people can report complaints in confidence. If a serious allegation is raised, we would immediately advise the individual to contact the police.”

The case has invited scrutiny of the tension between the secrecy of the whips’ office and the #MeToo movement encouraging women to speak out against harassment.

Whips are primarily responsible for getting the government’s business through parliament, but also for maintaining standards of conduct. The term dates to the 18th century, when it was known as “whipping-in”, a reference to the assistant in a fox hunt whose job it is to stop hounds straying from the pack.

Although an independent complaints system was set up in 2018 to take the handling of misconduct out of parties’ hands, the whips’ office acts as a pressure valve for unhappy MPs and staff. Only the whips, with the approval of the prime minister, can summarily suspend an MP.

The main parties have stated their commitment to rooting out sexual harassment, and the Tories have made progress with domestic abuse legislation. However, staff claim that the rhetoric does not match what happens when wrongdoing is alleged.

One Labour official said: “The whips’ office is hopeless in dealing with complaints. They are only concerned with protecting their MPs. It’s dispiriting to see whips dining with MPs thought to be abusive. It acts as another layer of protection for dodgy MPs.” A former aide to a Tory MP said: “Can you imagine [going] to work knowing one of your colleagues was arrested for rape but not knowing who?”

Others defended the whips’ actions as necessary to defend the privacy of MPs accused of wrongdoing and protect them from trial by public opinion.

Michael Fabricant, a former whip and Tory MP for Lichfield, tweeted after Labour had called for the arrested MP to be suspended: “In this country, you are innocent until proven guilty.”

Another senior Tory said: “Withdrawing the whip means that both the alleged perpetrator and the alleged victim will become obvious. All that will happen next is a media pile-on.”

Several former occupants of the whips’ office contrasted events with its “professionalisation” under David Cameron, when it came closer to resembling a human resources service, with more women and an eye to pastoral care. “It wasn’t about being fluffy but the idea that happier workers will be more supportive and make it easier to get business through,” one observed.

A sea change happened with the loss of the Tory majority in 2017. “There was a choice between being kind and putting the thumb screws on and Theresa May said she did not want to lose a single vote,” the same ex-whip said.

Boris Johnson’s arrival heralded a more disorganised approach, according to many insiders, driven by Downing Street’s apparent lack of interest in parliament, remote working amid the pandemic and by the influx of new MPs with looser party ties. One special adviser claimed that the prime minister and his team “don’t think about parliament very often at all — it’s an afterthought”.

The whips’ office has been dominated by men to an even greater extent than the Commons in general. One former whip said: “The thing with the Commons is it smells of boys, and this government smells of boys.”


----------



## brogdale (Aug 8, 2020)

phillm said:


> And by all accounts as far as we know, the victim still has to work in  Westminster with her rapist who hospitalised her. The sooner the police finish their initial investigations and arrest the culprit if there is a case to answer for the better. On Twitter apart from the obvious name that keeps occurring he isn't an ex 'senior' minister no other names are bubbling up with any veracity. Which means the police/journalists and those in the know are keeping tighter than a duck's arse on this which is unusual as thousands must know and leaks like shit usually happens.
> 
> *The Times article in full ...*
> 
> ...


He has already been arrested and then released on bail.


----------



## phillm (Aug 8, 2020)

brogdale said:


> He has already been arrested and then released on bail.


So Nigel Evans was arrested and named why not this guy - I guess since they say he raped his researcher then the anonymity of the victim is precarious. If so then why haven't they named him but not in the context of an unspecified female in the first instance. The whole stinking thing reeks of corruption and cover-up.

EDIT from facebook 
_
Parliament decided a couple of years ago not to divulge the name of any MP accused of any offence until they are actually charged. He's been bailed to appear, but not charged..... yet..._









						Tory MP Nigel Evans arrested after sex assault claims by two men
					

Deputy speaker in House of Commons held and house searched following allegations




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## andysays (Aug 8, 2020)

phillm said:


> And by all accounts as far as we know, *the victim still has to work in  Westminster with her rapist* who hospitalised her. The sooner the police finish their initial investigations and arrest the culprit if there is a case to answer for the better. On Twitter apart from the obvious name that keeps occurring he isn't an ex 'senior' minister no other names are bubbling up with any veracity. Which means the police/journalists and those in the know are keeping tighter than a duck's arse on this which is unusual as thousands must know and leaks like shit usually happens.
> 
> *The Times article in full ...*
> 
> ...


Have you actually read the article you've posted?

Because the accuser is described there, as she has been elsewhere, as 





> a *former* parliamentary aide



It appears, although this is just speculation on my part, like she may well have resigned her role and gone to the police after it became clear the Tory whip wasn't interested in taking any action or supporting her in any way.


----------



## Streathamite (Aug 8, 2020)

Raheem said:


> What's a _senior minister_, though, except someone some people will have heard of? If we were talking about a cabinet minister, we would probably know that by now.


pretty much cabinet rank, or minister of state in the 'big 4'; cabinet office, home, foreign, treasory


----------



## Raheem (Aug 8, 2020)

Streathamite said:


> pretty much cabinet rank, or minister of state in the 'big 4'; cabinet office, home, foreign, treasory


Bet you £20 to the server fund it's a junior minister.


----------



## maomao (Aug 8, 2020)

Raheem said:


> Bet you £20 to the server fund it's a junior minister.


A _senior_ junior minister?


----------



## phillm (Aug 8, 2020)

Raheem said:


> Bet you £20 to the server fund it's a junior minister.


If you win I'll add 20 to that as well. Or stop stupid bets and just donate the 20 quid would be nobler. Which is what I'll do.

DONE !


----------



## Raheem (Aug 8, 2020)

For clarity, a _former_ junior minister. It's public record, I think, that whoever it is is currently a backbencher.


----------



## phillm (Aug 8, 2020)




----------



## not-bono-ever (Aug 8, 2020)

approaching the the whip as the first contact over a criminal allegation ? some some fucked up grievance procedure they have got going on there.


----------



## existentialist (Aug 8, 2020)

not-bono-ever said:


> approaching the the whip as the first contact over a criminal allegation ? some some fucked up grievance procedure they have got going on there.


Sounds like they've got it just how they like it


----------



## phillm (Aug 9, 2020)

Tory MP’s rape accuser: I’ve had no help
					

Wednesday, April 1, was a difficult day at No 10. Britain had been in lockdown for just over a week and the prime minister was isolated in his flat upstairs get




					www.thetimes.co.uk
				




Wednesday, April 1, was a difficult day at No 10. Britain had been in lockdown for just over a week and the prime minister was isolated in his flat upstairs getting steadily weaker from the coronavirus. At about 9am the Downing Street switchboard called a young woman to connect her to the Conservative chief whip, Mark Spencer.The conversation that followed has raised questions about the Tory party’s duty of care to parliamentary staffers and the general welfare of junior employees in the Palace of Westminster.
The woman, a former parliamentary staffer in her twenties, was deeply apprehensive about talking to Spencer, the burly Nottinghamshire farmer who is Boris Johnson’s enforcer on the Tory back benches. She had never spoken to him before but she was determined to report disturbing claims of sexual assault and rape by a Conservative MP. According to confidential sources, she hoped the MP might be suspended by the party.
Spencer appeared well intentioned but clearly was unprepared for a conversation of such sensitivity, the sources said. The Sherwood MP is alleged to have asked how he could help and to have told her: “People who make threats rarely act upon them.”
He then advised her that he was “reluctant” to suspend the MP over the allegations, according to the sources, but that she should go to the “relevant authorities”. Spencer allegedly promised to investigate the MP informally by speaking to witnesses familiar with his suspected behaviour, before getting back to her in “a week or so”. We understand that he has not contacted her since.
The chief whip’s office said last week that Spencer “takes all allegations of harassment and abuse extremely seriously”, but sources close to the woman say she was disappointed. She said he was “just trying to pacify me” and she felt she did not have the opportunity to detail her allegations in full.
Last weekend the MP was arrested on suspicion of rape and remains under investigation for sexual offences allegedly committed between last summer and January.
The Conservative Party has refused to suspend him, saying that it would be premature to do so before the police conclude their investigation. That decision has prompted a serious row, with some senior MPs insisting that the whip should be taken away. It asks questions not only of the party, but also of parliament itself.When a young woman complains to whips that she has been attacked by a powerful MP, what should they do? How are parties meant to balance the privacy and reputation of MPs accused of wrongdoing with the safeguarding of staff?
Despite the changes in attitude prompted by the #MeToo scandal, these questions still do not invite simple answers. Nor has the reality of working in parliament changed for most young people: MPs continue to act as their effective employers, responsible not only for their work but also for their wellbeing and career development.
The cramped office suites, corridors and bars of parliament are an ideal arena for the potential abuse of power. According to the latest figures, the parliamentary bullying and harassment hotline received 704 calls in 2018-19.
Dave Penman, general secretary of the FDA, the civil servants’ and public service union, said: “Whatever the ingredients — power and alcohol — there is no other workplace like it where so many have complained about inappropriate behaviour.”
Parliament’s systems for handling complaints appear to be as arcane as the procedures of the House of Commons. In this case, the young woman’s search for help started on March 12 when she went to the Members’ and Peers’ Staff Association, which acts as an informal union and staff social club.It advised her to use parliament’s anonymous hotline and informally acted as a go-between, seeking access for her to the chief whip.There is no document or rulebook governing when the whips should suspend an MP, but when sexual assault allegations first emerged in 2017 against Charlie Elphicke, who at the time was the Tory MP for Dover and Deal, the then chief whip, Julian Smith, suspended him and ensured that members of his team accompanied the alleged victims to Scotland Yard.According to a person familiar with the decision to suspend Elphicke, who last month was convicted of three charges of sexual assault, the rationale was threefold: encouraging other women to come forward, safeguarding young staff and demonstrating that the party took such claims seriously.That principle appears to have been forgotten. Today’s approach may have been best summarised by Michael Fabricant, the Tory backbencher, who last week tweeted: “In THIS country, you are innocent until proven guilty.” Tories also argue that if they suspended the MP accused of rape, they would identify him, risking legal consequences and a backlash if he was later exonerated.We have learnt that the young woman’s next step, shortly before she spoke to the chief whip, was to contact parliament’s independent complaints and grievance scheme (ICGS), which was set up two years ago under the premiership of Theresa May as a bullying and harassment helpline.It assigned her an “advocate” from a women’s charity to help her navigate the process. Two options were available: she could submit a complaint against the MP, triggering a parliamentary investigation, or she could go to the police.
According to a parliamentary source, contacting the ICGS is the “right thing to do”, although complainants must be willing to go through a potentially years-long investigation into their former employers. The source said: “Parliament is not a place for quick fixes.”
The process of drafting a complaint to the ICGS and finding a counsellor and medical professionals, who can diagnose any health problems such as post-traumatic stress disorder, takes weeks. For the young woman, this became all the more complicated earlier in summer when the ICGS was taken over by a new contractor.This meant that her advocate could no longer work for her and all the data had to be transferred to a new charity. Her allegations had to be retold all over again. One source revealed that the woman said: “It’s quite distressing as I had a close and genuine understanding relationship with my advocate and now I’ll have to go through that all again with someone new.”


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## phillm (Aug 9, 2020)

Last Saturday an unmarked vehicle pulled up outside the MP’s home and officers took him to an east London police station. Scotland Yard said he had been arrested “on suspicion of rape”. He was later released on bail.For decades the Speaker was required to name and notify the House of Commons in the event that an MP was arrested. But in 2016 the rule was removed after it was decided that it violated the right to privacy enshrined in human rights laws.Sir Lindsay Hoyle, the current Speaker, was formally told of the MP’s arrest last Saturday night by the clerk of the House, but he was unable to act.This meant that the chief whip could not rely on parliamentary authorities to act or create a situation in which he was forced to suspend an MP.
Now Spencer must act alone to decide the MP’s fate while being seen to safeguard other young staffers who may come into contact with him when parliament returns from its summer recess next month.Johnson has asked the chief whip to provide a full explanation of his handling of the alleged victim, who has told confidantes that she is “devastated” by his apparent inaction.Spencer insists that he has a full note of the conversation with the alleged victim, showing that he had acted properly. He is understood to insist that the woman had not made allegations of serious sexual assault or sexual abuse when she spoke to him in April.Police officers are due to speak to the MP again on August 25. The investigation remains at an early stage but, while detectives look into the claims, the ICGS is unable to proceed with its own inquiry.Between the parliamentary authorities and the Conservative Party there is no known safeguarding plan in place for other aides. As a result, the FDA union wants to have urgent meetings with the House authorities to improvise an emergency plan. “They want [the accused MP] to be banned from the parliamentary estate,” said a person familiar with the discussions.Last night friends of the victim said that she feels abandoned by the party. The chief whip might not be required to make contact but, as a former parliamentary aide, she is “shocked” that nobody from the Conservative Party has approached her, they said.The chief whip’s office said: “The chief whip takes all allegations of harassment and abuse extremely seriously and has strongly encouraged anybody who has approached him to contact the appropriate authorities, including parliament’s independent complaints and grievance scheme, which can formally carry out independent and confidential investigations.
“The matter is now in the hands of the police and any action taken will be decided once the investigation has been concluded.”

When the #MeToo scandal hit Westminster in 2017, the leaders of all the main parties agreed a new system was needed for MPs’ and peers’ staff to report bullying and sexual harassment allegations, writes Gabriel Pogrund.As the parliamentary authorities have since acknowledged, the Palace of Wesminster had operated as a workplace in “more or less the same way for over 700 years”.The top priority post-”Pestminster” was to prevent people from having to report bad behaviour to their line managers — often the MPs accused of misconduct. It also sought to remove power from politicians in deciding on the outcome of complaints.Two-and-a-half years on, women’s groups and trade unions deliver a mixed verdict on whether the reforms have gone far enough, or been implemented with sufficient speed.The centrepiece of the new regime is an independent complaints and grievance scheme (ICGS).As part of the service, victims can anonymously contact a helpline via telephone or email and make a complaint about any MP, MP’s staff or member of House of Commons staff.Since last October, allegations can be “non-recent” as well, meaning that the ICGS can trigger investigations into historic abuse. The parliamentary commissioner for standards, an official approved by MPs, will then conduct a confidential probe.It was only in June that MPs went further and voted to create an independent panel to decide on sanctions for those found to have bullied or harassed staff. The panel of eight experts, none of whom are MPs, will have the power to suspend or exclude MPs in serious cases.So far, not one has suffered such a punishment. But Amy Leversidge, assistant general secretary of the senior civil servants’ FDA union, said at the time it was an “amazing result”.In June, MPs also decided by a slender margin of five votes to ditch plans to have debates on certain panel decisions. That such plans were even considered was then described as “re-traumatising” and a “slap in the face” for victims.According to the latest figures, the ICGS had received 201 calls and emails in the first quarter of this year alone. The resulting complaints prompted 26 investigations. Last year, 806 calls and emails were received, leading to about 100 investigations.


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## killer b (Aug 9, 2020)

not-bono-ever said:


> approaching the the whip as the first contact over a criminal allegation ? some some fucked up grievance procedure they have got going on there.


Damn right a rape complaint against an MP should get the immediate and full attention of the chief whip. Who else do you think should be the point of contact?


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## andysays (Aug 9, 2020)

killer b said:


> Damn right a rape complaint against an MP should get the immediate and full attention of the chief whip. Who else do you think should be the point of contact?


I think you may have what I take to be missed not-bono-ever 's point, which is that the unavoidable partially of the chief whip and their obvious interest in covering things up make them inappropriate to be the one dealing with such allegations.

At the very least, there should be someone within parliament who doesn't have an explicit party interest to uphold who can deal with such matters.


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## maomao (Aug 9, 2020)

killer b said:


> Damn right a rape complaint against an MP should get the immediate and full attention of the chief whip. Who else do you think should be the point of contact?


It probably warrants a full-time appointment tbf.


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## SpookyFrank (Aug 9, 2020)

not-bono-ever said:


> approaching the the whip as the first contact over a criminal allegation ? some some fucked up grievance procedure they have got going on there.



There doesn't seem to be a procedure. Taking it to the most senior person you can find seems like a sensible course of action in those circumstances. 

And anyway, there is no correct way for victims to respond to these situaitons or to seek recourse. They correct thing would be for people not to commit acts of abuse. Beyond that, victims should be supported no matter what course of action they choose. 

I very much doubt you would disagree with any of that, but it's worth saying anyway.


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## SpookyFrank (Aug 9, 2020)

phillm said:


> For decades the Speaker was required to name and notify the House of Commons in the event that an MP was arrested. But in 2016 the rule was removed after it was decided that it violated the right to privacy enshrined in human rights laws.



Ha, this explains all those prosecutions of coppers who have violated the human rights of arrestees by leaking their details to the press when there is no public interest reason for them to do so.

What about the human rights of this person's co-workers, or their constituents?


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## not-bono-ever (Aug 9, 2020)

killer b said:


> Damn right a rape complaint against an MP should get the immediate and full attention of the chief whip. Who else do you think should be the point of contact?



the cops


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## andysays (Aug 9, 2020)

maomao said:


> It probably warrants a full-time appointment tbf.


It's starting to look like it needs a whole section within parliament.

General question - who are parliamentary researchers etc actually employed by, is it by the party or MP they work for, or by Parliament itself?


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## killer b (Aug 9, 2020)

andysays said:


> I think you may have what I take to be missed not-bono-ever 's point, which is that the unavoidable partially of the chief whip and their obvious interest in covering things up make them inappropriate to be the one dealing with such allegations.
> 
> At the very least, there should be someone within parliament who doesn't have an explicit party interest to uphold who can deal with such matters.


But that imagines political parties and the people who work for them to be something other than they actually are. I'd imagine the complainant - being a tory staffer - complained internally in the first instance because she didn't want a massive party-damaging fallout, just something done about it. Even with an external ombudsman or similar, most complaints would most likely still be initially internal because of the bonds of party loyalty that most party staff feel.


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## killer b (Aug 9, 2020)

not-bono-ever said:


> the cops


that's up to the complainant though. the party can't just turn over the complaint to the cops unless she wanted them to.


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## andysays (Aug 9, 2020)

killer b said:


> But that imagines political parties and the people who work for them to be something other than they actually are. I'd imagine the complainant - being a tory staffer - complained internally in the first instance because she didn't want a massive party-damaging fallout, just something done about it. Even with an external ombudsman or similar, most complaints would most likely still be initially internal because of the bonds of party loyalty that most party staff feel.


As mentioned above, I'm unclear about whether parliamentary staff, in general, are employed by party or parliament.

If they are explicitly party staff, then I agree, though this maybe calls into question whether it would be better if they were actually employed by parliament rather than party.

There is definitely something highly problematic about the idea that the Chief Whip is the person to deal with this sort of situation,though that certainly isn't meant to excuse his behaviour in this case in anyway, or to blame or criticize the victim for choosing to go to him.


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## not-bono-ever (Aug 9, 2020)

yeah I know, but in any other workplace , going to HR for a serious sexual assault allegation would be utter lunacy- but saying that, you would expect any HR department to immdiately move this up to the filth. Not blaming the victim at all here, but its a strange setup when the party are by deafult expected to deal with such an issue internally.


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## killer b (Aug 9, 2020)

not-bono-ever said:


> you would expect any HR department to immdiately move this up to the filth.


You wouldn't though, its not up to them. Its up to the complainant.


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## killer b (Aug 9, 2020)

andysays said:


> As mentioned above, I'm unclear about whether parliamentary staff, in general, are employed by party or parliament.
> 
> If they are explicitly party staff, then I agree, though this maybe calls into question whether it would be better if they were actually employed by parliament rather than party.
> 
> There is definitely something highly problematic about the idea that the Chief Whip is the person to deal with this sort of situation,though that certainly isn't meant to excuse his behaviour in this case in anyway, or to blame or criticize the victim for choosing to go to him.


I think their employment status is a bit of a red herring - if you work for a political party as a researcher etc, it's not just a job - you're working towards the electoral success of a party who's ideology you share, and which probably feels like a family as much as a job. There's lots of very powerful reasons why someone might actually want a quiet internal complaint process rather than a damaging external one.


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## redsquirrel (Aug 9, 2020)

andysays said:


> At the very least, there should be someone within parliament who doesn't have an explicit party interest to uphold who can deal with such matters.


There is, the independent complaints and grievance scheme - which according to reports Spencer suggested she inform,

I'm not going to defend Spencer, he's a cunt and sounds to have been shit here, but even when there is an official body for people to report issues to, some people are going to go elsewhere, for a variety of perfectly good reasons.


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## Supine (Aug 9, 2020)

Rape has got nothing to do with any HR / internal complaint process. She should have been taken directly to a police station. It’s a police matter.


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## Badgers (Aug 9, 2020)

Supine said:


> Rape has got nothing to do with any HR / internal complaint process. She should have been taken directly to a police station. It’s a police matter.


This ^ 

It is not difficult to understand. However without knowing the victims circumstances given the cruel, lying vindictiveness of this disgraced government it is not black and white.


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## cyril_smear (Aug 9, 2020)

Has any body used their powers of deduction to speculate as to who it might be?


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## Steel Icarus (Aug 9, 2020)

cyril_smear said:


> Has any body used their powers of deduction to speculate as to who it might be?


Probably. But posting such stuff on Urban is a definite no-no.


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## killer b (Aug 9, 2020)

Supine said:


> Rape has got nothing to do with any HR / internal complaint process. She should have been taken directly to a police station. It’s a police matter.


What if she didn't want to go to the police? Do her employers not still have a duty of care - to her, but also to other people who may come into contact with the accused rapist - to investigate and if necessary act? There are many good (and bad) reasons someone might not wish to complain to the police - the appalling conviction rate, the likelihood that your colleagues and party members will consider you a gold-digging slut, the damage allegations like this are likely to do to the political organisation you believe in and want to be in power, etc, etc. Should women who don't wish to put themselves through that particularly grimy wringer have no other recourse?


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## equationgirl (Aug 9, 2020)

Equally though, after reporting the rape to the police, I think she's entitled to tell senior officials that 'this MP raped me and I want something done about it'.


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## equationgirl (Aug 9, 2020)

cyril_smear said:


> Has any body used their powers of deduction to speculate as to who it might be?


Not on urban, ed would be facing a lawsuit and there would be no urban. So don't speculate, please.


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## redsquirrel (Aug 9, 2020)

Supine said:


> Rape has got nothing to do with any HR / internal complaint process. She should have been taken directly to a police station. It’s a police matter.


Right so despite the complaint's own wishes the police should be called in at once. 

As killer b said there are loads of reasons why a victim may choose not to want to go to the police, but the matter still needs to be dealt with in some manner. That's why most large business/public bodies do have policies about this type of issue.


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## brogdale (Aug 9, 2020)

redsquirrel said:


> Right so despite the complaint's own wishes the police should be called in at once.
> 
> As killer b said there are loads of reasons why a victim may choose not to want to go to the police, but the matter still needs to be dealt with in some manner. That's why most large business/public bodies do have policies about this type of issue.


I'm sure that the tory whips have a 'policy' with how to deal with such events...it's just not one that they'd be able to commit to paper.


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## Badgers (Aug 9, 2020)

redsquirrel said:


> That's why most large business/


We have seen the disgraced governments 'policies' sadly


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## redsquirrel (Aug 9, 2020)

I really don't think people should be playing party politics with this, not only is it too serious but the Tories are not the only party that needs to have questions asked about it, Labour, LibDems, SNP all have their own shit.


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## Badgers (Aug 9, 2020)

redsquirrel said:


> I really don't think people should be playing party politics with this, not only is it too serious but the Tories are not the only party that needs to have questions asked about it, Labour, LibDems, SNP all have their own shit.


Don't talk soft


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## redsquirrel (Aug 9, 2020)

Badgers said:


> Don't talk soft


What you missed Salmond? Hopkins? 
This is serious using it as some sort of stick to bash "the tories" is pathetic, and insulting to victims.


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## Badgers (Aug 9, 2020)

redsquirrel said:


> What you missed Salmond? Hopkins?
> This is serious using it as some sort of stick to bash "the tories" is pathetic, and insulting to victims.


Salmond?


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## brogdale (Aug 9, 2020)

redsquirrel said:


> I really don't think people should be playing party politics with this, not only is it too serious but the Tories are not the only party that needs to have questions asked about it, Labour, LibDems, SNP all have their own shit.


Certainly correct, but there's absolutely no reason whatsoever why their approach to handling such issues shouldn't be used to attack the them.


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## andysays (Aug 9, 2020)

killer b said:


> What if she didn't want to go to the police? Do her employers not still have a duty of care - to her, but also to other people who may come into contact with the accused rapist - to investigate and if necessary act? There are many good (and bad) reasons someone might not wish to complain to the police - the appalling conviction rate, the likelihood that your colleagues and party members will consider you a gold-digging slut, the damage allegations like this are likely to do to the political organisation you believe in and want to be in power, etc, etc. Should women who don't wish to put themselves through that particularly grimy wringer have no other recourse?



I think some of the discussion here is people talking past each other, or talking at cross purposes.

Her employers clearly *do *have a duty of care, but this contradicts your earlier assertion that who actually employs parliamentary staff is a red herring.


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## redsquirrel (Aug 9, 2020)

Badgers said:


> Salmond?


Alex Salmond, former leader of the SNP


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## killer b (Aug 9, 2020)

andysays said:


> I think some of the discussion here is people talking past each other, or talking at cross purposes.
> 
> Her employers clearly *do *have a duty of care, but this contradicts your earlier assertion that who actually employs parliamentary staff is a red herring.


it doesn't though, piss off.


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## Badgers (Aug 9, 2020)

redsquirrel said:


> Alex Salmond, former leader of the SNP


I did not realise he was guilty?


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## redsquirrel (Aug 9, 2020)

Badgers said:


> I did not realise he was guilty?


As opposed to someone who has not yet even been charged? FFS 
Even if Salmond was innocent there are plenty of questions about his actions, and actions of the party and government.


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## andysays (Aug 9, 2020)

killer b said:


> it doesn't though, piss off.


It does though, just you're apparently not interested in discussing anything to do with that, which is fair enough, but really no need to tell me to piss off


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## equationgirl (Aug 9, 2020)

Badgers said:


> I did not realise he was guilty?


Not guilty on 12 charges, not proven on a further charge.


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## killer b (Aug 9, 2020)

andysays said:


> It does though, just you're apparently not interested in discussing anything to do with that, which is fair enough, but really no need to tell me to piss off


The reason her eventual employer's status is a red herring is because regardless who pays her salary her loyalty is to the party, and the party still has a duty of care to her even if parliament is paying for her. This is pretty obvious isn't it?


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## tim (Aug 9, 2020)

killer b said:


> that's up to the complainant though. the party can't just turn over the complaint to the cops unless she wanted them to.



Can't they? Surely if you are informed of a crime by a victim, you are advised to inform the relevant authorities, even if the victim asks you not to. That is what we have had drilled into us as part of our safeguarding training.


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## maomao (Aug 9, 2020)

tim said:


> Can't they? Surely if you are informed of a crime by a victim, you are advised to inform the relevant authorities, even if the victim asks you not to. That is what we have had drilled into us as part of our safeguarding training.


You can certainly be arrested for a crime of violence even if you're victim hasn't made a complaint or if they have made and withdrawn a complaint. That's what happened to Caroline Flack.


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## killer b (Aug 9, 2020)

tim said:


> Can't they? Surely if you are informed of a crime by a victim, you are advised to inform the relevant authorities, even if the victim asks you not to. That is what we have had drilled into us as part of our safeguarding training.


I've only really heard 'safeguarding' discussed in reference to children and vulnerable adults, and even then my understanding is disclosure is only advised where you've judged there to be an ongoing risk of further abuse. Do you work with children or vulnerable adults?


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## tim (Aug 9, 2020)

killer b said:


> I've only really heard 'safeguarding' discussed in reference to children and vulnerable adults, and even then my understanding is disclosure is only advised where you've judged there to be an ongoing risk of further abuse. Do you work with children or vulnerable adults?




I sometimes teach under 18s but mainly adults who have come to the UK to study. The training has mostly focussed on the former group, although we were told at one point that our adult students as non-nationals are vulnerable adults. I would that think lowly assistants, in reality, working in a hierachical workplace like Westminster are also vulnerable adults.  As to judgements of ongoing risk, it's made clear that it is not our role or indeed that of the school's to make  them. If there are allegations of criminal activity, they have to be reported. We've been told very clearly in every training event I have attended that we are not allowed to guarantee confidentiality about any allegation.


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## killer b (Aug 9, 2020)

SPADs and westminster researchers are not vulnerable adults just because they work in a hierarchical workplace.


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## Badgers (Aug 16, 2020)




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## brogdale (Aug 16, 2020)

This should make it a bit easier:


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## andysays (Aug 16, 2020)

brogdale said:


> This should make it a bit easier:
> 
> View attachment 226857


It will make it easier to identify him, and therefore identify the woman who's accused him of rape.

I suppose that was more or less inevitable in a case where there is such a high level of public curiosity.


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## Badgers (Aug 16, 2020)

brogdale said:


> This should make it a bit easier:
> 
> View attachment 226857


Yup. It is not a good outcome coming to light early or late. The fault lies with the disgraced party though. They held information back and would have brought said person back in for their own ends. 

Speculation is understandable. Said speculation is not where blame lies.


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## brogdale (Aug 16, 2020)

andysays said:


> It will make it easier to identify him, and therefore identify the woman who's accused him of rape.
> 
> I suppose that was more or less inevitable in a case where there is such a high level of public curiosity.


Those that might want to be so cultish as to publish her name already know it. I suspect most folk are more interested in the identity of the slime vermin rapist.


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## existentialist (Aug 16, 2020)

andysays said:


> It will make it easier to identify him, and therefore identify the woman who's accused him of rape.
> 
> I suppose that was more or less inevitable in a case where there is such a high level of public curiosity.


I think she's said she doesn't mind if in identifying him, she might be identified.


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## maomao (Aug 16, 2020)

There's probably loads of the cunts don't turn up for weeks at a time tbh.


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## Raheem (Aug 16, 2020)

maomao said:


> There's probably loads of the cunts don't turn up for weeks at a time tbh.


Maybe he's got a little I-am-Spartacus gang quite happy to extend their holidays in solidarity.


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## brogdale (Aug 16, 2020)

Raheem said:


> Maybe he's got a little I-am-Spartacus gang quite happy to extend their holidays in solidarity.


Just call a VoNC to out the cunt.


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## SpookyFrank (Aug 16, 2020)

brogdale said:


> This should make it a bit easier:
> 
> View attachment 226857



So, the workshy one. That narrows it down.


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## existentialist (Aug 16, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> So, the workshy one. That narrows it down.


Not by much.


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## Raheem (Aug 16, 2020)

He'll be named as soon as the HoC is sitting, though, won't he?


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## two sheds (Aug 16, 2020)

aren't a lot of them still self isolating?


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## brogdale (Aug 16, 2020)

two sheds said:


> aren't a lot of them still self isolating?


Ex ministers in their 50's?


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## two sheds (Aug 16, 2020)

i would if i were them


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## Badgers (Aug 16, 2020)

two sheds said:


> aren't a lot of them still self isolating?


Hopefully self dying


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## Streathamite (Aug 16, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Just call a VoNC to out the cunt.


Unfortunately, there isn't the mechanism to VoNC an MP who is no longer a minister. That only happens at GEs. The recall provision, OTOH...


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## existentialist (Aug 16, 2020)

Streathamite said:


> Unfortunately, there isn't the mechanism to VoNC an MP who is no longer a minister. That only happens at GEs. The recall provision, OTOH...


So we can presumably expect, pretty well as soon as he's identified, that someone in his constituency will start a recall petition? That's an interesting possibility, because I imagine he won't have been convicted of any offence by that stage...


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## cyril_smear (Aug 16, 2020)

Gave they officially named him yet


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## platinumsage (Aug 16, 2020)

existentialist said:


> So we can presumably expect, pretty well as soon as he's identified, that someone in his constituency will start a recall petition? That's an interesting possibility, because I imagine he won't have been convicted of any offence by that stage...



Only possible to recall if they’ve been convicted and sentenced to prison, or been suspended from the house for at least two weeks, or been convicted of expenses fraud.


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## existentialist (Aug 16, 2020)

cyril_smear said:


> Gave they officially named him yet


Nope. Don't be the first.


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## Raheem (Aug 16, 2020)

Streathamite said:


> Unfortunately, there isn't the mechanism to VoNC an MP who is no longer a minister. That only happens at GEs. The recall provision, OTOH...


Think the idea is that everyone would have to attend for a VoNC in the gov, and so he would be the only one not there. Probably he would just turn up, though, because what does a promise mean at the end of the day?


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## Streathamite (Aug 16, 2020)

Raheem said:


> Think the idea is that everyone would have to attend for a VoNC in the gov, and so he would be the only one not there. Probably he would just turn up, though, because what does a promise mean at the end of the day?


ahh..see what you mean, didn't read  that into Brogdale's post. My bad


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## Streathamite (Aug 16, 2020)

Raheem said:


> Think the idea is that everyone would have to attend for a VoNC in the gov, and so he would be the only one not there. Probably he would just turn up, though, because what does a promise mean at the end of the day?


Yes, he'd turn up. and they'd cover up.


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## Wilf (Aug 16, 2020)

Apparently the (alleged) beast has agreed to not return to work next month, which should make it easy enough to identify him by a process of elimination (I'm sure a lot of people know already but I've resisted the temptation to search):








						Tory MP accused of rape agrees not to attend Commons next month
					

Labour had called for the former minister to be suspended after his bail date was extended




					www.theguardian.com
				



Edit: ah, as said about 3 hours ago.


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## MickiQ (Aug 16, 2020)

Wilf said:


> Apparently the (alleged) beast has agreed to not return to work next month, which should make it easy enough to identify him by a process of elimination (I'm sure a lot of people know already but I've resisted the temptation to search):
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I dunno, if you watch it on BBC Parliament even Pre-Covid loads of the fuckers never seemed to be there


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## two sheds (Aug 16, 2020)

they're social distancing


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## Wilf (Aug 16, 2020)

MickiQ said:


> I dunno, if you watch it on BBC Parliament even Pre-Covid loads of the fuckers never seemed to be there


Statement on Commons Business: 
'The Government will not be holding any 3 Line Whipped Votes as this would reveal who the rapist amongst our ranks is'.


----------



## brogdale (Aug 16, 2020)

Streathamite said:


> Yes, he'd turn up. and they'd cover up.


Do a May/Elphicke.


----------



## Wilf (Aug 16, 2020)

This would be a good one for the  Moral Maze, 'Should rapey MPs be allowed to turn into work'.  They'll have Lady Fox for continuity, but perhaps get Lord Botham in as the new blood.


----------



## Cerv (Aug 16, 2020)

would taking a whole month off like this be beyond the normal bounds of what the whips' office agree to in pairing?
admittedly it's unlikely to be an issue that actually comes to a head given how large the government majority is. but what if Labour make a point of not taking anyone out in return for him. it's not like he's off sick, or unavailable away on government business is it.


----------



## Wilf (Aug 16, 2020)

Cerv said:


> would taking a whole month off like this be beyond the normal bounds of what the whips' office agree to in pairing?
> admittedly it's unlikely to be an issue that actually comes to a head given how large the government majority is. but what if Labour make a point of not taking anyone out in return for him. it's not like he's off sick, or unavailable away on government business is it.


Wouldn't put anything past this lot of scummers but I doubt they'd have the nerve to ask for a pair on this. Mind, if they did, there'd be bluster from Labour but they're so into westminster protocol that I bet they wouldn't name the MP, even then.


----------



## two sheds (Aug 16, 2020)

they hardly need the pairings now though


----------



## cyril_smear (Aug 17, 2020)

existentialist said:


> Nope. Don't be the first.


I'm still trying to find out who it is.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 17, 2020)

cyril_smear said:


> I'm still trying to find out who it is.


Your best efforts seem unlikely to be crowned by success


----------



## maomao (Aug 17, 2020)

Cerv said:


> would taking a whole month off like this be beyond the normal bounds of what the whips' office agree to in pairing?
> admittedly it's unlikely to be an issue that actually comes to a head given how large the government majority is. but what if Labour make a point of not taking anyone out in return for him. it's not like he's off sick, or unavailable away on government business is it.


It would make no difference given the size of the government majority. He wouldn't even be needed for a vonc. And lots of MPs rarely turn up at the HoC. Sinn Fein _never_ turn up.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 17, 2020)

maomao said:


> It would make no difference given the size of the government majority. He wouldn't even be needed for a vonc. And lots of MPs rarely turn up at the HoC. Sinn Fein _never_ turn up.


sinn fein often turn up at the house of commons. they have never formally taken their seats but they have availed themselves of the facilities available to mps like offices and funds for administrative support. see eg this 2001 article BBC News | UK POLITICS | Sinn Fein 'to get Commons offices' this later but still 2001 guardian article Sinn Fein offered offices at Westminster and there are numerous other articles


----------



## Streathamite (Aug 17, 2020)

cyril_smear said:


> I'm still trying to find out who it is.


whatever you do, don't post speculation here. Editor will - understandably - have a fit


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 17, 2020)

Streathamite said:


> whatever you do, don't post speculation here. Editor will - understandably - have a fit


frankly it's harder to work out who of the possible cohort it couldn't be than who it could.

which male tory mps wouldn't you suspect of some sort of sexual crime?


----------



## Raheem (Aug 17, 2020)

There are probably one or two who have been there long enough to have left loopholes for themselves in the legislation.


----------



## polly (Aug 17, 2020)

Gosh I wonder who it could possibly be.


----------



## Streathamite (Aug 17, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> frankly it's harder to work out who of the possible cohort it couldn't be than who it could.
> 
> which male tory mps wouldn't you suspect of some sort of sexual crime?


certainly can't think of any off hand


----------



## phillm (Aug 17, 2020)

Having trawled through the open sewer that is twitter opinions seem to have hardened around the original 'prime suspect' who is keeping an unusually low profile. He really should clean up his Facebook profile comments though as should all MPs if they want to appear 'contemporary'.


----------



## two sheds (Aug 17, 2020)

phillm said:


> Having trawled through the open sewer that is twitter opinions seem to have hardened around the original 'prime suspect' who is keeping an unusually low profile. He really should clean up his Facebook profile comments though as should all MPs if they want to appear 'contemptible'.



cfu


----------



## cyril_smear (Aug 17, 2020)

Edit...


----------



## two sheds (Aug 17, 2020)

or not


----------



## Streathamite (Aug 17, 2020)

cyril_smear said:


> Name names


er no - don't!
Immunity will eventually have to be lifted, but there is such a thing as contempt of court


----------



## cyril_smear (Aug 17, 2020)

two sheds said:


> or not


Or not. I've had one too many and being a knob head. 

I don't agree with naming.


----------



## Streathamite (Aug 17, 2020)

cyril_smear said:


> Or not. I've had one too many and being a knob head.
> 
> I don't agree with naming.


fair enough.


----------



## tim (Aug 17, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> sinn fein often turn up at the house of commons. they have never formally taken their seats but they have availed themselves of the facilities available to mps like offices and funds for administrative support. see eg this 2001 article BBC News | UK POLITICS | Sinn Fein 'to get Commons offices' this later but still 2001 guardian article Sinn Fein offered offices at Westminster and there are numerous other articles



Frank  Maguire, pub landlord and the independent Republican MP for Fermanagh and South Tyrone turned up in Westminster to abstain in person in the vote of confidence for Jim Callaghan in 1979. Callaghan lost it by one vote and as a result we got the election that brought in Thatcher. Maguire died two years later and Bonny Sands won the seat in the subsequent by-electio


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 18, 2020)

tim said:


> Frank  Maguire, pub landlord and the independent Republican MP for Fermanagh and South Tyrone turned up in Westminster to abstain in person in the vote of confidence for Jim Callaghan in 1979. Callaghan lost it by one vote and as a result we got the election that brought in Thatcher. Maguire died two years later and Bonny Sands won the seat in the subsequent by-electio


Sadly sands, elected on a smash h-block ticket, never given the opportunity to attend


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 18, 2020)

Streathamite said:


> er no - don't!
> Immunity will eventually have to be lifted, but there is such a thing as contempt of court


Immunity? What Immunity?


----------



## Streathamite (Aug 18, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> Immunity? What Immunity?


the embargo on naming names, done in this instance to protect not the accused but the victim's anonymity. The last thing she needs right now is the media camped on her doorstep


----------



## phillm (Aug 18, 2020)

Streathamite said:


> the embargo on naming names, done in this instance to protect not the accused but the victim's anonymity. The last thinbg she needs right now is the media camped on her doorstep


She is working with Time's journalists on this which is why they have more detailed scoops than others on details of the case.









						Tory MP accused of rape stays away from parliament
					

A former Conservative minister arrested on suspicion of rape has agreed not to return to Westminster next month after his bail was extended to November.The MP has voluntarily agreed not to return to parliament when the summer recess ends on September 1. Opposition MPs had called for him to be suspen




					www.thetimes.co.uk
				




T_ory MP accused of rape stays away from parliament
Steven Swinford, Deputy Political Editor
Monday August 17 2020, 12.01am, The Times

The MP has voluntarily agreed not to return to parliament when the summer recess ends on September 1
A former Conservative minister arrested on suspicion of rape has agreed not to return to Westminster next month after his bail was extended to November.
The MP has voluntarily agreed not to return to parliament when the summer recess ends on September 1. Opposition MPs had called for him to be suspended but the Conservatives are resisting calls to remove the whip.
A spokesman for the whips’ office said: “These are serious allegations and it is right that they are investigated fully. A decision on the whip will be reviewed once the police investigation has been concluded.”

The MP was taken into custody in east London on August 1 and then released pending investigations.

The complainant reported four incidents alleged to have taken place between July 2018 and January this year. She alleges that the MP assaulted her, forced her to have sex and left her so traumatised that she had to go to hospital. The allegations were reported to the chief whip, Mark Spencer. Mr Spencer does not believe that a sexual assault was reported to him during his conversation with the complainant, but he recalls that she reported “abusive behaviour and threats”.

He told her to go to parliament’s independent complaints and grievance scheme, which she did earlier this year.
Unions for parliament staff, the TUC, Centenary Action Group, Fawcett Society and Women’s Aid have said that the MP should be suspended pending a full investigation.

“The House of Commons should be no different from any other workplace. Safety and the safeguarding of staff must be paramount. Failure to suspend is yet another example of minimising violence against women and girls and failure to believe victims and survivors when they bravely speak out,” they said.

Details of the former minister’s arrest emerged days after Charlie Elphicke, the former Tory whip, became the first MP in a generation to be convicted of sexual assault._


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 18, 2020)

Streathamite said:


> the embargo on naming names, done in this instance to protect not the accused but the victim's anonymity. The last thinbg she needs right now is the media camped on her doorstep


yeh they should be socially distancing


----------



## Streathamite (Aug 18, 2020)

phillm said:


> She is working with Time's journalists on this which is why they have more detailed scoops than others on details of the case.


ahhh...didn't know that. Still think the anonymity is a good idea.


----------



## Streathamite (Aug 18, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh they should be socially distancing


that'll be the day!


----------



## phillm (Aug 18, 2020)

Streathamite said:


> ahhh...didn't know that. Still think the anonymity is a good idea.



I think she did that as she was getting nowhere with the Chief Whip and internal party procedures. From the content and tone of their articles, they are supporting and helping her.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 18, 2020)

phillm said:


> I think she did that as she was getting nowhere with the Chief Whip and internal party procedures. From the content and tone of their articles, they are supporting and helping her.


she should be wary of them, never trust a journalist is an adage i have kept by since the one time i did trust a journalist they nearly (metaphorically) shafted me. and that they didn't wasn't down to any skill on my part but that they drank about 15 pints before writing their story. these were (pre-guardian) observer journalists, someone or other harrison iirc and his photographer chum.


----------



## Streathamite (Aug 18, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> she should be wary of them, never trust a journalist is an adage i have kelp by since the one time i did trust a journalist they nearly (metaphorically) shafted me. and that they didn't wasn't down to any skill on my part but that they drank about 15 pints before writing their story. these were (pre-guardian) observer journalists, someone or other harrison iirc and his photographer chum.


agreed, raisesd the question of who to trust less, journoes or Tory pols! 
having said that, _Time _magazine (I assume Plhillm really means _Time_, not the _Times)_ have an industry rep for noth ethics and high quality journalism.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 18, 2020)

Streathamite said:


> agreed, raisesd the question of who to trust less, journoes or Tory pols!
> having said that, _Time _magazine (I assume Plhillm really means _Time_, not the _Times)_ have an industry rep for noth ethics and high quality journalism.


i would trust tories less as there is a chance of getting a drink out of journalists


----------



## phillm (Aug 18, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> she should be wary of them, never trust a journalist is an adage i have kept by since the one time i did trust a journalist they nearly (metaphorically) shafted me. and that they didn't wasn't down to any skill on my part but that they drank about 15 pints before writing their story. these were (pre-guardian) observer journalists, someone or other harrison iirc and his photographer chum.


Sure and these are News International ones to boot...


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 18, 2020)

phillm said:


> Sure and these are News International ones to boot...


----------



## existentialist (Aug 18, 2020)

Streathamite said:


> agreed, raisesd the question of who to trust less, journoes or Tory pols!
> having said that, _Time _magazine (I assume Plhillm really means _Time_, not the _Times)_ have an industry rep for noth ethics and high quality journalism.


Given that the link posted in the same post was from The Times, I suspect he did mean the UK Murdoch-owned rag, not the respected US publication.


----------



## maomao (Aug 18, 2020)

Streathamite said:


> agreed, raisesd the question of who to trust less, journoes or Tory pols!
> having said that, _Time _magazine (I assume Plhillm really means _Time_, not the _Times)_ have an industry rep for noth ethics and high quality journalism.


I'm pretty sure he meant the Times seeing as it was a Times article he C&P'd.


----------



## Streathamite (Aug 18, 2020)

maomao said:


> I'm pretty sure he meant the Times seeing as it was a Times article he C&P'd.


ahhh....I didn't see that C&P, my bad.
In that case, the poor woman really is caught between a rock and a hard place.
e2a: serves me right for skim-reading. I really should have seen that C&P


----------



## phillm (Aug 18, 2020)

Streathamite said:


> ahhh....I didn't see that C&P, my bad.
> In that case, the poor woman really is caught between a rock and a hard place.
> 2a: serves me right for skim-reading. I really should have seen that C&P


Yeah, the Times I took out a free sub for a month just to take a peek over the paywall - not worth the eye-watering 26 quid a month they want for it.


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 19, 2020)

cyril_smear said:


> I'm still trying to find out who it is.


Do that away from urban, please. Don't get this site shut down with your speculations.


----------



## Streathamite (Aug 19, 2020)

equationgirl said:


> Do that away from urban, please. Don't get this site shut down with your speculations.


Yes, I think he got that the second time I told him. Thanks for reminding him though


----------



## phillm (Aug 19, 2020)

.


----------



## andysays (Aug 19, 2020)

phillm said:


> The moment Johnson found out...
> 
> View attachment 227158


I'm not sure this is really a suitable subject for what I think is intended as a "joke".

This post, combined with your earlier speculation about the ID of the accused and your "trolling through life" tagline are all combining to create a bit of a bad smell about you, as far as I'm concerned.


----------



## phillm (Aug 19, 2020)

andysays said:


> I'm not sure this is really a suitable subject for what I think is intended as a "joke".
> 
> This post, combined with your earlier speculation about the ID of the accused and your "trolling through life" tagline are all combining to create a bit of a bad smell about you, as far as I'm concerned.



Yes I accept was in poor taste - the trolling comment came from years ago when there was an active JBishop thread and I've never bothered to update my profile. I certainly don't wish to intentionally offend anyone here far from it I'll leave it up to shame myself and consider it a lesson learned in thinking before posting


----------



## Wilf (Aug 19, 2020)

andysays said:


> I'm not sure this is really a suitable subject for what I think is intended as a "joke".
> 
> This post, combined with your earlier speculation about the ID of the accused and your "trolling through life" tagline are all combining to create a bit of a bad smell about you, as far as I'm concerned.


I think post 284 is in even worse taste than that - given that Carrie Symonds herself is a rape survivor.


----------



## phillm (Aug 19, 2020)

Wilf said:


> I think post 284 is in even worse taste than that - given that Carrie Symonds herself is a rape survivor.


I had no idea of that just and have just looked it up absolutely terrible - I shall delete it forthwith - sincere apologies for any offence caused.


----------



## andysays (Aug 19, 2020)

Wilf said:


> I think post 284 is in even worse taste than that - given that Carrie Symonds herself is a rape survivor.


I'd forgotten that, TBH, but you're right.

And it's not my intention to get into "shaming", phillm, just a suggestion to think before you post...


----------



## Streathamite (Aug 19, 2020)

As a general note, please can *everyone* think *very* carefully before posting *anything* on this thread


----------



## Teaboy (Aug 20, 2020)

Streathamite said:


> As a general note, please can *everyone* think *very* carefully before posting *anything* on this thread



If this was a sticky at the top of each thread we'd have about 6 threads in total and none totaling more than 7 posts.


----------



## Streathamite (Aug 20, 2020)

Teaboy said:


> If this was a sticky at the top of each thread we'd have about 6 threads in total and none totaling more than 7 posts.


Agreed, but no one is suggesting it should be a sticky atop each thread, or anything even _remotely_ like that.
FTR: the *only *reason why I posted that is because the subject matter has to do with ongoing and very serious legal proceedings involving a criminal matter, and absolutely the last thing this site - or anyone connected with it needs - is for either m'Learned Friends or inspector Knacker to come crawling over these baords.
There are laws of Contempt.


----------



## Teaboy (Aug 20, 2020)

I feel like you missed the humour there.  I should have used a smillie.


----------



## Streathamite (Aug 20, 2020)

Teaboy said:


> I feel like you missed the humour there.  I should have used a smillie.


OK, sorry, my bad, work stress has drained my humour-o-meter


----------



## andysays (Aug 20, 2020)

Teaboy said:


> I feel like you missed the humour there.  I should have used a smillie.


Should have used a simile...


----------



## Teaboy (Aug 20, 2020)

andysays said:


> Should have used a simile...


Like I did that other time?


----------



## Dogsauce (Aug 22, 2020)

Streathamite said:


> Agreed, but no one is suggesting it should be a sticky atop each thread, or anything even _remotely_ like that.
> FTR: the *only *reason why I posted that is because the subject matter has to do with ongoing and very serious legal proceedings involving a criminal matter, and absolutely the last thing this site - or anyone connected with it needs - is for either m'Learned Friends or inspector Knacker to come crawling over these baords.
> There are laws of Contempt.



is it a matter of contempt at the moment, or more a case of getting in trouble for naming the wrong person? Just curious as I don’t know what the legal situation is regarding the reporting of an arrest - whether something specific to this case or in general. Also aware that there is a moral case for not naming names as it can lead to identifying the alleged victim.


----------



## existentialist (Aug 22, 2020)

Dogsauce said:


> is it a matter of contempt at the moment, or more a case of getting in trouble for naming the wrong person? Just curious as I don’t know what the legal situation is regarding the reporting of an arrest - whether something specific to this case or in general. Also aware that there is a moral case for not naming names as it can lead to identifying the alleged victim.


I reckon it probably comes down to how big your lawyering budget is. 

But perhaps a more important consideration is to ensure that some slippery cunt (well, he IS a senior Tory ) isn't able to claim that he didn't get a fair trial. There'll be plenty of time to drag his name through the mud after conviction...


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 22, 2020)

existentialist said:


> I reckon it probably comes down to how big your lawyering budget is.
> 
> But perhaps a more important consideration is to ensure that some slippery cunt (well, he IS a senior Tory ) isn't able to claim that he didn't get a fair trial. There'll be plenty of time to drag his name through the mud after conviction...


His name should be dragged through the mud now, not simply as the perp in this instance but because of the misery he has helped inflict on the country. There's 22 people who fit the info released, so all of them should have their public misdeeds aired.


----------



## Kaka Tim (Aug 23, 2020)

Doesn't his name get released if he is charged?


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 23, 2020)

Kaka Tim said:


> Doesn't his name get released if he is charged?


Yes, if he is imprisoned his name will go free but will be shunned by all right-thinking people and wander the streets emblazoned with the mark of Caine. While the former minister will only be known as a number in future, most likely 3.99


----------



## Streathamite (Aug 23, 2020)

Kaka Tim said:


> Doesn't his name get released if he is charged?


I don't know this for sure, but it may be down to the discretion of the judge,depending on certain variable factors (need for anonymity of the victim etc). However, I'm no lawyer, so I'm not the best guide on this!


----------



## cyril_smear (Aug 24, 2020)

Streathamite said:


> I don't know this for sure, but it may be down to the discretion of the judge,depending on certain variable factors (need for anonymity of the victim etc). However, I'm no lawyer, so I'm not the best guide on this!


Yes, a judge can do that but he'd have to go before the judge first. So if there were a bail period between charge and court, you could argue, he could be named.


----------



## Streathamite (Aug 24, 2020)

cyril_smear said:


> Yes, a judge can do that but he'd have to go before the judge first. So if there were a bail period between charge and court, you could argue, he could be named.


who would 'he' be in this instance? the accused, the victim (she, I would have thought), or a 3rd party such as a media outlet?


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 24, 2020)

cyril_smear said:


> Yes, a judge can do that but he'd have to go before the judge first. So if there were a bail period between charge and court, you could argue, he could be named.


I don't suppose he's been before a magistrate yet. And with the great backlog in cases it could easily be 2022 before this case is concluded


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 24, 2020)

Streathamite said:


> who would 'he' be in this instance? the accused, the victim (she, I would have thought), or a 3rd party such as a media outlet?


Sure yer man will be depicted in some quarters as the victim here


----------



## Streathamite (Aug 24, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> Sure yer man will be depicted in some quarters as the victim here


yup - absolutely and depressingly true. I am just waiting for the _Daily Mail_ sob story


----------



## Streathamite (Aug 24, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> I don't suppose he's been before a magistrate yet. And with the great backlog in cases it could easily be 2022 before this case is concluded


yes, good point. This onew will run and run (pre-trials, psychiatric assessments, procedural motions and filings...)


----------



## killer b (Aug 24, 2020)

cyril_smear said:


> Yes, a judge can do that but he'd have to go before the judge first. So if there were a bail period between charge and court, you could argue, he could be named.


There are specific and totally unambiguous rules about the naming of victims and the publication of information which could lead to their identification, and you couldn't argue that he could be named at all, so stop it.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 24, 2020)

Streathamite said:


> yes, good point. This onew will run and run (pre-trials, psychiatric assessments, procedural motions and filings...)


All sorts of fun on its way


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 24, 2020)

cyril_smear said:


> Yes, a judge can do that but he'd have to go before the judge first. So if there were a bail period between charge and court, you could argue, he could be named.


Give it a fucking rest. Stop obsessing about naming this person on here. If you persist in this I will report you because the risks to urban are too great.

Go obsess on Facebook or whatever. Not here.


----------



## existentialist (Aug 24, 2020)

cyril_smear said:


> Yes, a judge can do that but he'd have to go before the judge first. So if there were a bail period between charge and court, you could argue, he could be named.


In general terms, and with due regard for editor's blood pressure, I don't think we should even be *hinting* at gaming the system. Urban doesn't need to be first-with-the-news on this one, nor should it be. Leave that to organisations with bigger pockets to keep their lawyers in.

ETA: snap, equationgirl


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 24, 2020)

Also I don't believe the victim has waived her right to anonymity at this point, so any speculations about naming the MP could lead to her a) being identified and b) being hounded by the media, and that's absolutely not on.


----------



## killer b (Aug 24, 2020)

fwiw I don't think speculation here is ever likely to cause any problems for the site or for any trial etc further down the line, just commenting on the legalities and what's actually 'arguable'. Plus it's really dull having sneer bring this up every other day.


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 24, 2020)

killer b said:


> fwiw I don't think speculation here is ever likely to cause any problems for the site or for any trial etc further down the line, just commenting on the legalities and what's actually 'arguable'. Plus it's really dull having sneer bring this up every other day.


I don't think collectively we should even be thinking about speculating and editor has made it quite clear the site could be put at risk. We just can't say 'it's unlikely to cause problems down the line' because we just don't know that for certain.

You're right about the constant raising of the topic and looking for loopholes being seriously fucking dull though.


----------



## existentialist (Aug 24, 2020)

I think that, regardless of the actual risk to the site, editor has made it abundantly clear on many occasions that this kind of speculation makes him uneasy. Regardless of the actual, legal, risks, that ought to be enough not to do it.

And yes, it does get rather tedious when the same people keep trying oh-so-hard to play the "edgy" card.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 24, 2020)

equationgirl said:


> Also I don't believe the victim has waived her right to anonymity at this point, so any speculations about naming the MP could lead to her a) being identified and b) being hounded by the media, and that's absolutely not on.


not 'any speculation'. that's just plain wrong. there's a group of 22 people who fit criteria which have been made public and yer man is almost certainly among them. it's when someone gets down to the 'ooh i reckon it's charles clarke' or 'my money's on it being robin cook' level of naming people that you're on dangerous territory. not that it is charles clarke or robin cook, i hasten to add.


----------



## killer b (Aug 24, 2020)

The important issue here isn't the legal position or risks to the site, or what's actually allowable as far as speculation goes - it's that there's a woman who's been raped who's right to anonymity is put at risk by the speculation. That's why we shouldn't be doing it, not because there's some infinitesimal legal risk to the site should he be named here.


----------



## existentialist (Aug 24, 2020)

killer b said:


> The important issue here isn't the legal position or risks to the site, or what's actually allowable as far as speculation goes - it's that there's a woman who's been raped who's right to anonymity is put at risk by the speculation. That's why we shouldn't be doing it, not because there's some infinitesimal legal risk to the site should he be named here.


Fair enough. That makes *two* reasons why those intent on playing with the idea of identifying the (alleged) perpetrator shouldn't.


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 24, 2020)

I did already point out that speculation could lead to the identification of the woman which is absolutely not on, something Cyril smear seems to have forgotten.


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 24, 2020)

And, to be fair, pretty much everyone isn't speculating in any way.

Imagine going to work knowing the man who raped you is there and you will see him, possibly even have  to have meetings with him, be in a small room with him. It would be horrific


----------



## existentialist (Aug 24, 2020)

equationgirl said:


> And, to be fair, pretty much everyone isn't speculating in any way.
> 
> Imagine going to work knowing the man who raped you is there and you will see him, possibly even have  to have meetings with him, be in a small room with him. It would be horrific


And, while this is probably rather unfair of me to say so, the Conservative Party hasn't exactly covered itself in glory around issues like this - or even this specific case, given the apparent lack of urgency about referring the matter on - and I can well imagine some Party grandee giving it the old "what's she got to worry about?" routine.


----------



## pesh (Aug 24, 2020)

unfair to say so? they ignored it for 4 months hoping she wouldn't go to the police and when she did they refuse to suspend him. i don't think you're being particularly unfair there...


----------



## existentialist (Aug 24, 2020)

pesh said:


> unfair to say so? they ignored it for 4 months hoping she wouldn't go to the police and when she did they refuse to suspend him. i don't think you're being particularly unfair there...


Well, I am rather broadly stereotyping the entire Conservative Party, and I am sure even such a gang of unrepentant reactionary scumsuckers has a few naive and clueless people amongst its membership who don't subscribe to the "well, she must have done something to deserve it" mindset so popular amongst a certain sort of person.


----------



## Lucy Fur (Aug 24, 2020)

Since there's precious little to be said, other than speculation / legal loop holes etc, perhaps it's time to lock this thread until such time as it can be discussed?


----------



## brogdale (Aug 24, 2020)

Save for the daily opportunity of reminding ourselves that Charlie Elphicke is a convicted sex offender.


----------



## Lucy Fur (Aug 24, 2020)

fair point, well made.


----------



## polly (Aug 24, 2020)

The alleged victim has said that she's happy for his name to be released, as she never worked for him and doesn't believe it could lead to her being identified. This is not an argument in favour of speculating here, btw; more that the party should have suspended him.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 24, 2020)

polly said:


> The alleged victim has said that she's happy for his name to be released, as she never worked for him and doesn't believe it could lead to her being identified. This is not an argument in favour of speculating here, btw; more that the party should have suspended him.


Speculation is our meat and drink while unfounded allegations against Tory MPs may lead to the high court

Tho I cannot think what worse things could be said about Tory MPs than what is said in public already without actions for defamation


----------



## Streathamite (Aug 24, 2020)

equationgirl said:


> Give it a fucking rest. Stop obsessing about naming this person on here. If you persist in this I will report you because the risks to urban are too great.
> 
> Go obsess on Facebook or whatever. Not here.


well said. There's a time, and a place - and this isn't it.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 24, 2020)

Streathamite said:


> well said. There's a time, and a place - and this isn't it.


it is the place but it is not the time


----------



## cyril_smear (Aug 25, 2020)

killer b said:


> There are specific and totally unambiguous rules about the naming of victims and the publication of information which could lead to their identification, and you couldn't argue that he could be named at all, so stop it.


Edited because I misunderstood your post. Sorry.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Sep 15, 2020)

Two years for Chaz


----------



## Badgers (Sep 15, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Two years for Chaz


?


----------



## gosub (Sep 15, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Two years for Chaz



I hope the whom the thread is about gets similar


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Sep 15, 2020)

Badgers said:


> ?



Wrong thread 









						Westminster sexual abuse scandals
					

Beech got 18 years. That's for the perverting course of justice charges and one count of fraud (criminal compensation payout for Saville allegation) not the child porn. A chunky old sentence.




					www.urban75.net


----------



## not-bono-ever (Sep 15, 2020)

elphickkkk


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 15, 2020)

not-bono-ever said:


> elphickkkk


You've one k too many there


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Sep 15, 2020)

not-bono-ever said:


> elphickkkk



Peak Boon.


----------



## Badgers (Sep 15, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Peak Boon.


Hi Ho Silver


----------



## Streathamite (Sep 15, 2020)

Badgers said:


> ?


Charles Elphicke, ex Tory MP


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Sep 15, 2020)

Natalie Elphicke still supporting her husband. Just goes to show that the thing with misogyny is it's always the victim's fault. Women can be misogynists and she is a Tory. Disgusting.


----------



## Roadkill (Dec 13, 2020)

Times reporting that police have dropped the investigation.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 13, 2020)

Roadkill said:


> Times reporting that police have dropped the investigation.


and on No Deal day itself; truly the right-wing Gods are beneficent at present.


----------



## steveo87 (Dec 13, 2020)

Spoiler: Delete if not appropriate 



So does that mean Marc Francois will be making a glorious return to PMQs soon?


----------



## maomao (Dec 13, 2020)

Post deleted.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 13, 2020)

.


----------



## existentialist (Dec 13, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Really? Is that so?
> 
> So people have been barking up the wrong tree, then?
> 
> Any idea why this previously very vocal individual has been so quiet of late, then?


Perhaps even Johnson's Tories saw him as a liability?


----------



## maomao (Dec 13, 2020)

I may be wrong. In which case we'd better all shut up.

🤐


----------



## maomao (Dec 13, 2020)

Though it kind of hinges on whether MPs can still vote from home. I understood that arrangement stopped in May. Though they may have stopped it for shielding MPs and kept it for rapists. That would be consistent with the current ruling party's mores.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 13, 2020)

maomao said:


> I may be wrong. In which case we'd better all shut up.
> 
> 🤐


Yep.


----------



## cyril_smear (Dec 13, 2020)

steveo87 said:


> Spoiler: Delete if not appropriate
> 
> 
> 
> So does that mean Marc Francois will be making a glorious return to PMQs soon?


yes, probably.


----------



## cyril_smear (Dec 13, 2020)

maomao said:


> Though they may have stopped it for shielding MPs and kept it for rapists.



shit sticks i see.


----------



## MrSki (Dec 13, 2020)

maomao said:


> XXXX? has taken part in committees and votes over the last four months. Which means it is not him.


Not been seen in the House & voting by proxy. Presumably video link for committees.


----------



## maomao (Dec 13, 2020)

I've deleted my post. I only said it because I thought it definitely wasn't him and therefore not a problem but that just invited lots of posts pointing out my errors.


----------



## MrSki (Dec 13, 2020)

maomao said:


> I've deleted my post. I only said it because I thought it definitely wasn't him and therefore not a problem but that just invited lots of posts pointing out my errors.


I have edited my quote.


----------



## gosub (Dec 13, 2020)

.


----------



## killer b (Dec 13, 2020)

Has to be said the current laws for this kind of thing are hopelessly out of date - for the whole of this afternoon on the sidebar of twitter, it told you that '#toryrapist is trending with <name redacted>' (except it wasn't redacted).


----------



## Fez909 (Dec 30, 2020)

Here's an interesting Twitter post:

(ed: sorry not worth the risk)


----------



## killer b (Dec 30, 2020)

I wonder how you'd go about suing an anonymous MI6 'leaks' twitter account.


----------



## gosub (Dec 30, 2020)

Fez909 said:


> Here's an interesting Twitter post:
> 
> --



That guy is part of the reason charges were dropped IMO.


----------



## belboid (Dec 30, 2020)

killer b said:


> I wonder how you'd go about suing an anonymous MI6 'leaks' twitter account.


by demanding twitter reveals who the account owner is.  Not that he will, but it is commonly done.


----------



## gosub (Dec 30, 2020)

killer b said:


> I wonder how you'd go about suing an anonymous MI6 'leaks' twitter account.



If it still is then it shouldn't be. At the time he definitely did have a desk @Vx would n't have been too hard to find the source from some of the details he gave.
He's burned (just not burnt out).


----------



## tim (Oct 18, 2021)

Hopefully, this granting of online anonymity travesty will not happen again if the government have the guts to follow the lead of fearless Tory MP Marc Gino François.


----------



## andysays (Dec 10, 2021)

Is this the same case?

*Ex-Tory minister Andrew Griffiths found to have raped wife*​


> A former Conservative minister has been found to have raped and physically abused his wife. A family court judge concluded Andrew Griffiths, 51, pressurised Kate Griffiths, MP for Burton-upon-Trent, into engaging in sexual activity.





> Mr Griffiths, a former MP for the Staffordshire town, used "coercive and controlling behaviour". In July 2018 he resigned after it was reported he sent "depraved" messages to two women constituents. The ex-MP denied allegations made by Ms Griffiths and "adamantly denied" rape.


----------



## killer b (Dec 10, 2021)

andysays said:


> Is this the same case?
> 
> *Ex-Tory minister Andrew Griffiths found to have raped wife*​


I'd guess not, Griffiths wasn't an MP when this thread was started - this is a family court judgement's justification why Griffiths can't see his kids rather than a rape trial judgement


----------



## andysays (Dec 10, 2021)

killer b said:


> I'd guess not, Griffiths wasn't an MP when this thread was started - this is a family court judgement's justification why Griffiths can't see his kids rather than a rape trial judgement


Yeah, when I read the headline it reminded me of this thread, but having now read through the thread to refresh my memory it appears this is in fact an entirely different case of a Tory ex minister accused of rape.

In my defence, it seems to happen frequently enough that it can be difficult to keep up sometimes.


----------



## killer b (Dec 10, 2021)

facts of this case aside, I'm finding the current trend for tory wives replacing their estranged sex-beast husbands in parliament a bit weird.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 10, 2021)

killer b said:


> facts of this case aside, I'm finding the current trend for tory wives replacing their estranged sex-beast husbands in parliament a bit weird.


Elphicke syndrome.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 10, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Elphicke syndrome.


The elphicke substitution


----------



## brogdale (Dec 10, 2021)

I'd missed this fact about the rapist; FFS:


----------



## keybored (Dec 10, 2021)

brogdale said:


> I'd missed this fact about the rapist; FFS:
> 
> View attachment 300114


It was quite the scandal at the time.









						Married Tory minister quits over perverted demands in 2,000 texts to barmaids
					

EXCLUSIVE: The Tory MP and small business minister sent Imogen Treharne and her pal £700 and offered to rent a flat to meet for sex, the Sunday Mirror can reveal




					www.mirror.co.uk


----------



## brogdale (Dec 10, 2021)

keybored said:


> It was quite the scandal at the time.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I probably knew that once, but it was news to me tonight.


----------



## ouirdeaux (Dec 10, 2021)

To be fair, 'Tory politician turns out to be a cunt' is a bit like 'dog bites man'.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Dec 14, 2021)

ouirdeaux said:


> To be fair, 'Tory politician turns out to be a cunt' is a bit like 'dog bites man'.



Bit more than a mere cunt in this case though. He was a sadistic torturer and serial rapist. 'human cancer' is a better descriptor: 








						Griffiths v Griffiths - Tortoise
					

A former MP and government minister was found by a family judge to have raped and abused his wife over nearly a decade. It would all have been kept secret – if we hadn’t fought to publish the truth




					www.tortoisemedia.com


----------



## maomao (May 17, 2022)

Unclear if this is the same Mark Francois or another rapist. 









						Tory MP arrested on suspicion of rape and banned from Commons
					

MP arrested on suspicion of indecent assault, sexual assault, rape, abuse of position of trust and misconduct




					www.theguardian.com
				




Stab them all.


----------



## brogdale (May 17, 2022)

maomao said:


> Unclear if this is the same Mark Francois or another rapist.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So the by-elections will go in the order paedo, porno and rapist.
All normal tory stuff.


----------



## William of Walworth (May 17, 2022)

Genuinely new story, the above,, I take it??


----------



## Sasaferrato (May 17, 2022)

brogdale said:


> So the by-elections will go in the order paedo, porno and rapist.
> All normal tory stuff.



Like:

McGarry - thief (Awaiting sentencing)
Mackay - Sexually harassing a boy 30 years younger than him.
Patrick Grady - Sexual Harassment.
Patricia Gibson - Sexual Harassment.


Oh yes, it is only Tory MPs that are guilty of abysmal conduct.

Get a fucking grip brogdale.


----------



## Smangus (May 17, 2022)

Just goes to show you can't really trust any of the fuckers.


----------



## killer b (May 17, 2022)

Sasaferrato said:


> Like:
> 
> McGarry - thief (Awaiting sentencing)
> Mackay - Sexually harassing a boy 30 years younger than him.
> ...


This is the 'Tory ex-Minister arrested on suspicion of rape' thread, so people are posting about the Tory ex minister arrested on suspicion of rape?

Looks like you're having a really great holiday.


----------



## paulhackett (May 17, 2022)

Isn't it in the public interest to name the MP if they can't represent their constituents in Parliament?


----------



## friedaweed (May 17, 2022)

Sasaferrato said:


> Like:
> 
> McGarry - thief (Awaiting sentencing)
> Mackay - Sexually harassing a boy 30 years younger than him.
> ...


7 wrongs don't make a right Toryboy.


----------



## Sasaferrato (May 17, 2022)

friedaweed said:


> 7 wrongs don't make a right Toryboy.


Fuck off wanker chops.


----------



## friedaweed (May 17, 2022)

killer b said:


> Looks like you're having a really great hoholiday.



According to my mother there's always good WiFi coverage on Saga Holidays because there's no kids choking the bandwidth.


----------



## Sasaferrato (May 17, 2022)

paulhackett said:


> Isn't it in the public interest to name the MP if they can't represent their constituents in Parliament?


One would have thought so. The name will be out tomorrow no doubt.


----------



## friedaweed (May 17, 2022)

Sasaferrato said:


> Fuck off wanker chops.


😁 Happy Hour is it?


----------



## killer b (May 17, 2022)

friedaweed said:


> According to my mother there's always good WiFi coverage on Saga Holidays because there's no kids choking the bandwidth.


Some people like to go to the beach, or read a novel by the pool. Sas prefers unhinged shrieking at people on the internet. by the pool, presumably.


----------



## Sasaferrato (May 17, 2022)

friedaweed said:


> According to my mother there's always good WiFi coverage on Saga Holidays because there's no kids choking the bandwidth.


Go fuck yourself you obnoxious piece of smegma, and have a while on ignore.


----------



## killer b (May 17, 2022)

Seriously though Sasaferrato - are you ok?


----------



## friedaweed (May 17, 2022)

killer b said:


> Some people like to go to the beach, or read a novel by the pool. Sas prefers unhinged shrieking at people on the internet. by the pool, presumably.


I bet he's just killing time waiting for the aqua Zumba to start.


----------



## planetgeli (May 17, 2022)

killer b said:


> Some people like to go to the beach, or read a novel by the pool. Sas prefers unhinged shrieking at people on the internet. by the pool, presumably.



Tbf he's gone for the popular 4th 
option of just getting completely pissed. Shrieking on the internet.


----------



## Sasaferrato (May 17, 2022)

Smangus said:


> Just goes to show you can't really trust any of the fuckers.


Indeed. I do not support any person who molests others, irrespective of party.

I have a strong feeling we need a General Election, see if Labour can get their act together and form a government, albeit a coalition. The Greens or lib Dems are generally available.

The current government has had it's time, more than its's time.


----------



## Sasaferrato (May 17, 2022)

killer b said:


> Seriously though Sasaferrato - are you ok?


The query as to whether it was 'Happy Hour', I'm in a hotel where all drinks are free.

I haven't had a drop for the last two days, because I've been looking after my unwell wife.


----------



## not-bono-ever (May 17, 2022)

Another one ? Fucking hell


----------



## brogdale (May 17, 2022)

Sasaferrato said:


> Like:
> 
> McGarry - thief (Awaiting sentencing)
> Mackay - Sexually harassing a boy 30 years younger than him.
> ...


I really haven't heard of any of those people but, assuming they're also elected representatives (?)...that kind of confirms in part why I'm drawn to the anarchist ideology. You're keen on representative democracy, aren't you?


----------



## two sheds (May 17, 2022)

True that, I can't remember an anarchist MP being accused of anything


----------



## friedaweed (May 17, 2022)

Clearly the "unhappy hour" then. 

Gws Mrs Sass


----------



## bellaozzydog (May 17, 2022)

Sasaferrato said:


> Like:
> 
> McGarry - thief (Awaiting sentencing)
> Mackay - Sexually harassing a boy 30 years younger than him.
> ...


See rape and sexual harassment isn’t really a single party issue

Kind of a cross party thing,

Try not to defend it if you can help it


----------



## killer b (May 17, 2022)

Sasaferrato said:


> I've been looking after my unwell wife.


sorry to hear mrs sas is unwell - hope she gets well soon.


----------



## cupid_stunt (May 17, 2022)

not-bono-ever said:


> Another one ? Fucking hell


----------



## gosub (May 17, 2022)

paulhackett said:


> Isn't it in the public interest to name the MP if they can't represent their constituents in Parliament?


Its not in the interest  of either the defendant or the victim.  If you want to try playing top trumps with a judge about 'interest' he'll throw contempt of court at you


----------



## friedaweed (May 17, 2022)

> the unnamed male Tory currently remains in custody, after being arrested for alleged sexual offences committed between 2002 and 2009 in London. Police first received a report of the allegations in January 2020 and has conducted a two-year investigation into the claims



I wonder how long it will take for the name to leak out. 🤔


----------



## maomao (May 17, 2022)

not-bono-ever said:


> Another one ? Fucking hell


It could be the same one, not enough info yet.


----------



## MickiQ (May 17, 2022)

friedaweed said:


> I wonder how long it will take for the name to leak out. 🤔


Not very long I suspect, the press undoubtly have a short list of likely suspects and probably have someone lurking outside their homes and/or relevant police stations


----------



## brogdale (May 17, 2022)

Can't speak for the veracity...only a random on twatter, but....


----------



## gosub (May 17, 2022)

friedaweed said:


> I wonder how long it will take for the name to leak out. 🤔


MP's rarely miss 2-3 PMQ's in a row


----------



## MickiQ (May 17, 2022)

brogdale said:


> Can't speak for the veracity...only a random on twatter, but....



If there are only seven it isn't going to take long to eliminate six


----------



## cupid_stunt (May 17, 2022)

brogdale said:


> Can't speak for the veracity...only a random on twatter, but....




I'll be pissed off if it's Tim Loughton, having braked heavily when the twat step out in front of my van, as he crossed the road outside Worthing hospital, what a missed opportunity that was.


----------



## platinumsage (May 17, 2022)

gosub said:


> MP's rarely miss 2-3 PMQ's in a row



Pretty sure they won’t miss a single one if it removes them from a shortlist of rape suspects.


----------



## Raheem (May 17, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> I'll be pissed off if it's Tim Loughton, having braked heavily when the twat step out in front of my van, as he crossed the road outside Worthing hospital, what a missed opportunity that was.


Wait until he's further from a hospital.


----------



## planetgeli (May 17, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> what a missed opportunity that was.



Regardless of whether it's him or not.


----------



## MickiQ (May 17, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> I'll be pissed off if it's Tim Loughton, having braked heavily when the twat step out in front of my van, as he crossed the road outside Worthing hospital, what a missed opportunity that was.


A mate of mine briefly joined the Young Conservatives back in the early 1970's because he had the hots for a certain female member (didn't get anywhere with her) but he did get to meet the then Education Secretary a certain Margaret Thatcher.
He later confessed his great regret that he lacked the ability to see the future.


----------



## friedaweed (May 17, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> A mate of mine briefly joined the Young Conservatives back in the early 1970's because he had the hots for a certain female member (didn't get anywhere with her) but he did get to meet the then Education Secretary a certain Margaret Thatcher.
> He later confessed his great regret that he lacked the ability to see the future.


What and tried to woo the Iron lady instead?


----------



## gosub (May 17, 2022)

friedaweed said:


> I wonder how long it will take for the name to leak out. 🤔


tbf if someone from Paul Staines outfit rang, I'd hang up too


----------



## not a trot (May 17, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> View attachment 323040



Wonder how her wedding night went.


----------



## izz (May 17, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> I'll be pissed off if it's Tim Loughton, having braked heavily when the twat step out in front of my van, as he crossed the road outside Worthing hospital, what a missed opportunity that was.


Oh don't feel too bad, he would have made a terrible mess over the front of your van.


----------



## cupid_stunt (May 17, 2022)

izz said:


> Oh don't feel too bad, he would have made a terrible mess over the front of your van.



There was a car wash just down the road.


----------



## steveseagull (May 17, 2022)

He has been named by a fairly reliable source. (Alex Tiffin)

It is not Penfold but geographically close.


----------



## Ax^ (May 17, 2022)

I think it the big man himself if I was the missus I'd be worried about him trying to mount their little dog with his history

that the fella who was making Scouse claim down voices last week


----------



## brogdale (May 17, 2022)

steveseagull said:


> He has been named by a fairly reliable source. (Alex Tiffin)
> 
> It is not Penfold but geographically close.


The thickest tory MP


----------



## Supine (May 17, 2022)

steveseagull said:


> He has been named by a fairly reliable source. (Alex Tiffin)


Crap at spelling though. He managed to spell ‘the’ wrong twice in a short article. Tne and tje ffs!!!


----------



## Kaka Tim (May 17, 2022)

never heard of "black isle media" but they have named the mp.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 17, 2022)

brogdale said:


> The thickest tory MP


And as you might imagine that's up against some stiff competition


----------



## cupid_stunt (May 17, 2022)

In case anyone has missed it...









						Romford By-election 2022
					

Not confirmed yet but the next by-election could be Romford.  Tories have an 18k majority so an uphill battle for Keith (providing Keith is still a thing by then)




					www.urban75.net


----------



## Ax^ (May 17, 2022)

Kaka Tim said:


> never heard of "black isle media" but they have named the mp.



ah so he likes to make advance on other things aside from Flags


----------



## maomao (May 17, 2022)

Was the identity of the original one ever confirmed? Because that was an ex-minister (however junior) and Rosindell can barely fucking read and write so can't have held any real power.


----------



## Ax^ (May 17, 2022)

Just said mp this time

and the flag shagger was a follower of Robinson on twitter
oddly quite a few sex offender follow that prick as well


----------



## quiet guy (May 17, 2022)

Birds of a feather flocking together and all that


----------



## Ax^ (May 17, 2022)

must of seen the grooming gangs as competition


----------



## eatmorecheese (May 17, 2022)

I'd really really like to see the cunt in a cell for a decent stretch.


----------



## Sasaferrato (May 17, 2022)

two sheds said:


> True that, I can't remember an anarchist MP being accused of anything


That'll be because their never has been one.


----------



## Sasaferrato (May 17, 2022)

bellaozzydog said:


> See rape and sexual harassment isn’t really a single party issue
> 
> Kind of a cross party thing,
> 
> Try not to defend it if you can help it


I most certainly am not defending any sexual offender. Were there to be a plebiscite that those in authority automatically got a double tariff, I would vote in favour.


----------



## Ax^ (May 17, 2022)

is anyone old enough to remember the sleeze that outted the tory last time

everyone of them must be feeling like


----------



## marty21 (May 18, 2022)

steveseagull said:


> He has been named by a fairly reliable source. (Alex Tiffin)
> 
> It is not Penfold but geographically close.


I'm playing the national anthem


----------



## not a trot (May 18, 2022)

maomao said:


> Was the identity of the original one ever confirmed? Because that was an ex-minister (however junior) and Rosindell can barely fucking read and write so can't have held any real power.


I'm hoping it's not the same person making the allegations. Just saying.


----------



## kalidarkone (May 18, 2022)

Sasaferrato said:


> The query as to whether it was 'Happy Hour', I'm in a hotel where all drinks are free.
> 
> I haven't had a drop for the last two days, because I've been looking after my unwell wife.


Hope she gets well soon Sasaferrato  xxx I've sent her some healing vibes xxx


----------



## Sasaferrato (May 18, 2022)

kalidarkone said:


> Hope she gets well soon Sasaferrato  xxx I've sent her some healing vibes xxx



Thank you. Your healing vibes and 500mg of  clarithromycin bd are doing the trick, she is a good bit better today.


----------



## Wilf (May 18, 2022)

brogdale said:


> Can't speak for the veracity...only a random on twatter, but....



If anyone can spot any of these assorted cunts in the PMQ crowd scenes, we'll be getting closer:


----------



## Wilf (May 18, 2022)

Can't remember if Hansard just records votes or whether it does attendance as well.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 18, 2022)

Wilf said:


> Can't remember if Hansard just records votes or whether it does attendance as well.


Yes


----------



## killer b (May 18, 2022)

Wilf said:


> If anyone can spot any of these assorted cunts in the PMQ crowd scenes, we'll be getting closer:



we already know though?


----------



## Dystopiary (May 18, 2022)

I wonder if he hasn't been named - well he has but not officially - to protect the victim. There've definitely been cases were that's happened before. If that's not the case then there's no good reason for him not be.


----------



## RainbowTown (May 18, 2022)

This tweet from one of the most odious of Tory MP's is made even worse by the emoji added at the end. It's basically trivializing the allegation of sexual assault and rape. What an absolute turd of a man is he.









						Tory MP Michael Fabricant condemned over 'grotesque' tweet
					

Michael Fabricant's tweet related to the arrest of another MP who is accused of rape and sexual assault.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## killer b (May 18, 2022)

Dystopiary said:


> I wonder if he hasn't been named - well he has but not officially - to protect the victim. There've definitely been cases were that's happened before. If that's not the case then there's no good reason for him not be.


don't they usually only name them after they've been charged?


----------



## xenon (May 18, 2022)

Fabricant is human waste.


----------



## Raheem (May 18, 2022)

killer b said:


> don't they usually only name them after they've been charged?


Think that was a rule invented fairly recently (for Mark Francois, possibly).

Thing with the situation as is is that there's a constituency that effectively doesn't currently have a working MP, but the constituents are not supposed to know about it.


----------



## Ax^ (May 18, 2022)

they voted for a change after Nigel Evans and David Ruffley were arrested then acquitted of rape


talking about the culture of Tory MPs jebus


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## Lurdan (May 18, 2022)

Twitter link






Twitter link


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## David Clapson (May 18, 2022)

Have we had this yet? Caution, link to poisonous Tory blogger Andrew Rosindell's Office Not Answering Queries

Edit: can't be him, because he thinks rapists should be castrated Four Conservative hardliners who could win seats at the election


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## Cid (May 18, 2022)

David Clapson said:


> Have we had this yet? Andrew Rosindell's Office Not Answering Queries



No, because people on here generally don't link to that piece of shit's website.


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## David Clapson (May 18, 2022)

Cid said:


> No, because people on here generally don't link to that piece of shit's website.


When studying slime we sometimes have to swim in the gutter


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## Cid (May 18, 2022)

David Clapson said:


> When studying slime we sometimes have to swim in the gutter



There are other sources that have made similar er... 'suggestions', no need to give Staines the clicks.


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## David Clapson (May 18, 2022)

Cid said:


> There are other sources that have made similar er... 'suggestions', no need to give Staines the clicks.


Which ones? I couldn't find any that I've heard of


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## Cid (May 18, 2022)

David Clapson said:


> Which ones? I couldn't find any that I've heard of



Just search that MP's name on twitter. Alex Tiffin (see upthread) was on it a day ago.


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## David Clapson (May 18, 2022)

Cid said:


> Just search that MP's name on twitter. Alex Tiffin (see upthread) was on it a day ago.


That's exactly what I did!  Maybe I missed something obvious. My brain is foggy right now


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## cupid_stunt (May 18, 2022)

Cid said:


> No, because people on here generally don't link to that piece of shit's website.



True, but sometimes it's justified, and this is one of those occasions.


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## Cid (May 18, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> True, but sometimes it's justified, and this is one of those occasions.



It really just says he's been calling the constituency office and getting nothing from them.

Well, I won't labour the point, but I dunno - think if you're going to do that at least 'noted twat Staines says...' and maybe spoiler code. I have omitted the spoiler code on shitty links before mind you, but y'know - we all strive to be better.


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## belboid (May 19, 2022)

Raheem said:


> Think that was a rule invented fairly recently (for Mark Francois, possibly).
> 
> Thing with the situation as is is that there's a constituency that effectively doesn't currently have a working MP, but the constituents are not supposed to know about it.


That’s true in parliament, but we can blame cliff richard for the rest of the media failing to say so. Good piece in the grauniad on it









						Why is Tory MP arrested on suspicion of rape not being named?
					

Met policy is not to identify detainees pre-charge, but reasons media are not naming politician are more complex




					www.theguardian.com


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## Petcha (May 19, 2022)

As someone on Sky News just said, the MP in question, and his name's all over the net but I won't post it here, has been banned from the Commons but is still free to hold his weekly surgeries in his constituency with the general public, go to schools etc. But not to slurp heavily subsidised pinot noir in westminster. Crazy. Just sack him. Or completely suspend him at least.


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## gosub (May 19, 2022)

belboid said:


> That’s true in parliament, but we can blame cliff richard for the rest of the media failing to say so. Good piece in the grauniad on it
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don't blame Cliff Richard for that.

Irrespective of what he may or may not have done.  Met tipping off beeb to have a news chopper there coz they were raiding was wrong... Whole approach on Yewtree was iffy as they got Ted Hastings to point out in one the finales of Line of Duty.

What happened to Nigel Evans was pretty shitty too


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## Brainaddict (May 19, 2022)

Some people on Twitter are saying it's about not prejudicing the trial to the point it becomes impossible to hold it, but the guardian article suggests otherwise. But I thought that had been the reason for anonymity in some other high profile cases.

Meanwhile others on Twitter are saying his constituents deserve to know so they can steer well clear of him. Anyway, you can now find his name if you want, but it's not plastered all over the front pages, which is perhaps useful to stop his defence team claiming an unfair trial.


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## gosub (May 19, 2022)

Brainaddict said:


> Some people on Twitter are saying it's about not prejudicing the trial to the point it becomes impossible to hold it, but the guardian article suggests otherwise. But I thought that had been the reason for anonymity in some other high profile cases.
> 
> Meanwhile others on Twitter are saying his constituents deserve to know so they can steer well clear of him. Anyway, you can now find his name if you want, but it's not plastered all over the front pages, which is perhaps useful to stop his defence team claiming an unfair trial.


So he been charged then??


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## Brainaddict (May 19, 2022)

gosub said:


> So he been charged then??


No, in the event that he's charged.


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## gosub (May 19, 2022)

Brainaddict said:


> No, in the event that he's charged.


I think it's more than fair enough he ain't named while he ain't even been charged


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## Wilf (May 19, 2022)

gosub said:


> I think it's more than fair enough he ain't named while he ain't even been charged


Maybe, but he should be under full suspension from the party and his job.


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## andysays (May 19, 2022)

Wilf said:


> Maybe, but he should be under full suspension from the party and his job.


I understand the reasons why we might want that, but it's a bit tricky to do it in such a high profile case and still retain his anonymity and also not risk the anonymity of others involved, eg possible accusers.

Tricky shouldn't mean impossible though.


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## maomao (Dec 8, 2022)

MP Julian Knight has had the Conservative whip suspended after a complaint to police. Must be pretty bad given Rosindell is still there.


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## cupid_stunt (Dec 8, 2022)

maomao said:


> MP Andrew Knight has had the Conservative whip suspended after a complaint to police. Must be pretty bad given Rosindell is still there.



Julian Knight.









						Senior Tory MP suspended after complaint to police
					

Julian Knight suspended as Conservative MP after complaint made to Metropolitan Police, party spokeswoman says



					www.bbc.co.uk


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## Lurdan (Dec 8, 2022)

From this morning's Politico newsletter:



> *BREAKING OVERNIGHT: *The Tories have removed the party whip from Julian Knight following a complaint made to the Metropolitan Police. He will now sit as an independent MP. There had been growing frustration among female Tory MPs over the past week about the party’s apparent inaction over allegations against Knight, who chaired a DCMS committee hearing as normal on Tuesday. One MP told Playbook they were “sick” of serving in the party against that backdrop.



Perhaps he's one of the unnamed Tory MPs referred to in this Times article from last Saturday. Bit hard to keep up.

Whips warned rape claim Tory about behaviour - The Times (archived)


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## Lurdan (Dec 8, 2022)

Goodness, it seems that Julian Knight has been the victim of an appalling miscarriage of justice.







twitter link

As he said on Tuesday

View attachment ezgif.com-crop.mp4

At least I assume that is what he was talking about.


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## Sasaferrato (Dec 8, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> Julian Knight.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


FFS! What next?


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## Sweet FA (Dec 9, 2022)

Sasaferrato said:


> FFS! What next?


String him up?


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## Pickman's model (Dec 9, 2022)

Sweet FA said:


> String him up?


Bring back the birch


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## Sweet FA (Dec 9, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> Bring back the birch


For Sas or Knight?


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## Sue (Dec 9, 2022)

TBH, I've kind of lost track, given half the Commons seem to be sexual predators or otherwise up to no good. 🤷‍♀️


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## Pickman's model (Dec 9, 2022)

Sweet FA said:


> For Sas or Knight?


Let's start with knight


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## Pickman's model (Dec 9, 2022)

Sue said:


> TBH, I've kind of lost track, given half the Commons seem to be sexual predators or otherwise up to no good. 🤷‍♀️


With quotes the great majority are either from Shakespeare or the bible. With sexual miscreants these days so many seem to be MPS or MPs


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## Sweet FA (Dec 9, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> Let's start with knight


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## tim (Dec 9, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> Bring back the birch




Yes give these Tories not only what they deserve but, curiously, also want.


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