# Would a "Business Improvement District" (BID) be good for Brixton?



## Gramsci (Aug 12, 2012)

I had heard might be happening a while back but saw article in SLP on Friday. BIDs started in the US and the idea was brought here by the last Government. They are controversial both here and in US. There has been no consultation with Brixton residents about this. From what I have read residents do not get much say in it. Though it could affect people who live and work in a BID area who do not run a business in the area.

The one proposed in Fitsrovia has caused debate in the local press. Worth a look as Fitsrovia also has large residential population. In a BID area there is no obligation to consult residents.

http://news.fitzrovia.org.uk/2012/0...t-business-improvement-district-is-announced/

"Under BID regulations it is not necessary to consult smaller businesses or residents. When BIDs are created in areas dominated by businesses of a similar size and where there are no residents living the decision to approve a BID or not becomes a simple case of a democratic vote. But in mixed-use areas like Fitzrovia where there are thousands of residents and smaller businesses these are excluded from the consultation process and about environmental changes that affect them. Critics of BIDs point out this democratic deficit."

And also this article:

http://news.fitzrovia.org.uk/2012/0...itzrovia-partnership-and-what-are-they-up-to/


" So what is a business improvement district? As wereportedon 6 June, Camden Council informed businesses with a rateable value of over £100,000, saying:

A Business Improvement District (BID) is an arrangement through which the business community can elect to generate additional funding to re-invest in the local area to improve the public realm, promote business and make the area more profitable for business. Under these arrangements, business ratepayers agree to contribute a small additional levy on their business rate bill to finance a BID. In order to go ahead with the renewal of the BID, agreement is needed from business ratepayers through a formal voting process, which is required to be conducted by the Returning Officer for Elections for the London Borough of Camden.

If successful, a new commercial district would be created in the heart of Fitzrovia and be managed by The Fitzrovia Partnership who would market the area and employ private security. They would foster more evening and weekend commercial activity and tip the balance from Fitzrovia’s mix of residents and small businesses towards a central area that is more frenetic and increasingly dominated by chain stores. It will be branded and packaged, rents will go up and it will lose its much-loved character and identity."



The article in SLP says that the BID group for Brixton comprises 10 businesses and would be a "unifying voice " business in Brixton. Also that it would work with smaller businesses who need help.

So there are different views on BIDs. Also they are recent idea so no one can be sure how one in Brixton would work exactly.

This article in Guardian looks at both sides of argument.

What concerns me is that residents are not consulted though it looks like if Brixton did become a BID area whoever runs the BID would have some powers that would have come under local authority ( democratically elected) powers.


Anyone know about more about how BIDs work?
What do people think?


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## Pickman's model (Aug 12, 2012)

short answer: no


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## Gramsci (Aug 12, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> short answer: no


 
Id be interested in why u think that.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 12, 2012)

lack of subsequent consultation and apparent agenda to fuck over the area / make it more 'business-friendly'. this wouldn't be a problem if businesses in brixton were all like bookmongers or some of the other lovely local small businesses. but from the op  they'll get no more say than the residents. it seems to be licence for big business to ride roughshod over local interests, regardless of the hue of those interests, in the pursuit of profit.


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## Gramsci (Aug 12, 2012)

Also found this article by writer on housing and regeneration Anna Minton. Here on this site as pdf.

http://againstbids.wordpress.com/20...-critique-of-business-improvement-districtss/

from page 19 of article:

But the big difference with the US is the question of‘additionality’ – in other words whether or not BIDs will provide additional services to local government or whether they will replace them. As in the US this has significant implications for local democracy as it determines whether locally-elected officials or unelected business leaders decide how best to manage and maintain the local environment. At the same time many local businesses are loath to pay a tax for improvements which they feel the local authority should provide. As in the US the larger BIDs have considerable urban planning powers and match funding abilities. For example, the New West End Company in Central London has drawn up a strategic development framework and will receive £18 million over three years from the Mayor’s office to fund improvements. So far the jury is out as regards the weakening of local democracy. ‘Will the public sector see it as a loosening of democracy? Some local authorities will, some won’t. Inevitably there will be some decisions made by this new body which would historically have been made by others,’ a retailer predicted. Another important difference with the UK response to BIDs is that, while broadly supportive of the policy, the police are not happy with the emphasis on private security, preferring that their own Police Community Support Officers (PCSOs) be used to police BID areas. BIDs on the other hand prefer to employ private security, because it is cheaper and easier to control and manage. The other concern in the UK is that the BID model adopted is too focussed on the trading environment and ‘footfall’ as a result of the ODPM’s close collaboration with the Association of Town Centre Managers in working up the policy. For some critics, this model is too driven by a single-minded desire to increase footfall and consumption, rather than the broader list of priorities that should drive the creation ofsuccessful, sustainable places. ‘BIDs come from town centre management and town centre management comes from the drive to increase footfall. It’s Bluewater and the out-of-town mall model influencing how we look at all other retail and commercial space,’ said one leading private sector developer."

BTW the New West End Company does have private uniformed security I see in what I assume are public pavements.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 13, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> BTW the New West End Company does have private uniformed security I see in what I assume are public pavements.


the new west end company are scum


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## Gramsci (Aug 13, 2012)

Here is Lambeth Council webpage on BIDs


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## FridgeMagnet (Aug 13, 2012)

Would privatising an area of Brixton be good for Brixton?


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## FridgeMagnet (Aug 13, 2012)

The answer by the way is "no, it's a completely disgraceful idea and anyone supporting it should be ashamed of themselves".


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## quimcunx (Aug 13, 2012)

My gut instinct is fuck off.


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## Greebo (Aug 13, 2012)

quimcunx said:


> My gut instinct is fuck off.


Quite.


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## Gramsci (Aug 13, 2012)

What Id like to know is:

Who are the ten business behind the BID application?
How will the interests of the small traders and shopkeepers be represented?
Will residents have a say? ( does not look like it)
What powers will a Brixton BID have in relation to policing and planning?
In what way is the Council involved in this possible BID?


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## Winot (Aug 13, 2012)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Would privatising an area of Brixton be good for Brixton?


 
What aspect of the BIDs proposed by Lambeth do you consider to equate to "privatising an area of Brixton"?  There's no suggestion (as far as I can see) of land privatisation.  I would be concerned however if the privatised security resulted in a cleansing of 'undesirables' from a public area.


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## Winot (Aug 13, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> What Id like to know is:
> 
> <snip>
> In what way is the Council involved in this possible BID?


 
That's answered in the Lambeth FAQ:




			
				Lambeth website said:
			
		

> *What is the role of the local authority?*
> 
> The local authority has a statutory responsibility to support the development of BIDs and facilitate their establishment. In Lambeth this includes conducting the ballot and collecting and enforcing the levy. The authority must also confirm that the proposed BID does not conflict with area plans and strategies.


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## fortyplus (Aug 13, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> What Id like to know is:
> 
> Who are the ten business behind the BID application?




Let me guess. Tesco. Tesco stores plc. Tesco Metro. Tesco Finance. Tesco Home Delivery. Tesco Direct. Tescopoly Unlimited. 
And three other businesses owned and controlled by Tesco.


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## Brixton Lioness (Aug 13, 2012)

Apologies if this is adding unneccessary detail but thought that a brief summary of a BID might be useful:

A BID proposal is generally worked up in conjunction with local government and key community stakeholders (such as town centre managers, local business leaders, MDs of local industry). This working party will define the area to which the BID will relate. I imagine in Brixton that this will cover the high street, Coldharbour Lane, Atlantic Road, the market etc. The working party should then consult local rate payers on what improvements they would like to see undertaken within the district and then write the BID business plan, which will be voted upon.

Those who can vote are payers of business rates. Therefore residents (who pay council tax) would be neither consulted nor asked to vote. Businesses who lie outside the district will be neither consulted nor asked to vote.

Previous BID business plans have covered initiatives such as marketing and events, cleanliness, security, bulk purchasing power (such as refuse or insurance) etc. BIDS established nearby include Southbank and Kingston. The council is obliged to provide base services (so they can't just withdraw street cleaning for example) but this has to be set out in the business plan.

If a BID is voted in (I believe that this has to be both 50% of rate payers AND 50% of rateable value). Generally turnout for these votes is very low but it is incredibly important for local businesses to engage.  All rate payers in the district will be obliged pay an additional % on the rates payable. This can range from 1 - 3%. This is how the BID is funded.

An Interim Board would be established after a successful vote and I think that they have 6-12 months to organise an election for permanent Board members. The BID would last for 5 years and then a further vote would be held for its renewal (or not).

BIDS, if run properly and are fully accountable, can be great for an area. Engagement by local businesses is key to this.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 13, 2012)

But they would be accountable to other businesses and not to eg gramsci or mrs magpie


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## fortyplus (Aug 13, 2012)

[





Brixton Lioness said:


> Apologies if this is adding unneccessary detail but thought that a brief summary of a BID might be useful:
> 
> A BID proposal is generally worked up in conjunction with local government and key community stakeholders (such as town centre managers, local business leaders, MDs of local industry). This working party will define the area to which the BID will relate. I imagine in Brixton that this will cover the high street, Coldharbour Lane, Atlantic Road, the market etc. The working party should then consult local rate payers on what improvements they would like to see undertaken within the district and then write the BID business plan, which will be voted upon.
> 
> ...


 
This is very useful information, thanks. It is good to know that most small businesses are included, but there is still a concern about market traders - who would not normally pay business rates on their pitches, as far as I know. Clearly excluding them from the governance of an organisation having such a potential impact on their area would not be a good thing. I would hope that some provision could be made to include market traders in the governance of any Brixton BID.

The danger with any such initiative is that it ends up being hijacked by the larger organisations. This is simply because the big companies can afford to second someone to engage, while small businesses and sole traders don't have the resources to do so.  You say it is incredibly important for local businesses to engage, and I agree, but it's also incredibly important for the people who promote these things to understand how incredibly difficult it is for small businesses to do so. Say a meeting is booked for 4pm - do we shut up shop so we can come?


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## Brixton Lioness (Aug 13, 2012)

It's the interim board’s responsibility to engage and if they want a yes vote, they have no choice. If they fail,  vote no.


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## Brixton Lioness (Aug 13, 2012)

P.S. The drawback of BIDS is that they affect those who don't have the vote. Only plus side of this is that they don't have to contribute financially.


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## Gramsci (Aug 13, 2012)

Brixton Lioness said:


> Those who can vote are payers of business rates. Therefore residents (who pay council tax) would be neither consulted nor asked to vote. Businesses who lie outside the district will be neither consulted nor asked to vote.
> 
> Previous BID business plans have covered initiatives such as marketing and events, cleanliness, security, bulk purchasing power (such as refuse or insurance) etc. BIDS established nearby include Southbank and Kingston. The council is obliged to provide base services (so they can't just withdraw street cleaning for example) but this has to be set out in the business plan.
> 
> ...


 
Unlike the US model in the UK it is business not property owners who have to cough up the levy. Do you know if this means that owners of property who do not pay business rates cannot be on the BID board? There are large owners of property in Brixton- the covered markets being one and some of the High street is owned by property companies. I assume the owners of the covered market do not pay business rates but the tenants do pay.

Some BIDs do seem to have planning / urban design function as well as the initiatives you describe. Such as the New West End company ( see #5 Anna Minton quote). I could see that a Brixton BID might want to have similar influence on area. Is this a possibility? The Council is supposed to facilitate BIDs ( see Winots post #14). I can see a possible conflict with Brixton Masterplan and Cooperative Council. As these are supposed to produce community engagement from all sectors of community not just business.

As the Fitsrovia lot say what is point of BIDs when the local community has already engaged with Council on plans for area which among other things cover the business sector?

BIDs are not fully accountable in areas where there is a large residential population living alongside retail and entertainment business. I would not get any sort of say as a resident. It would be up to largess of BID board.

Also the issue of security employed by BID. The police are not happy with this nor am I. Its all very well for large shop or club to have its own security on premises but uniformed "wardens" around my public streets. No thanks. I have seen that in West End. At least the police in theory are accountable to general public.


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## Gramsci (Aug 13, 2012)

Answer my own question here. Despite the fact that only business rate payers pay levy owners of property can draw up BID proposals

The following persons may draw up BID proposals —
(a)​any person who, at the date they send BID proposals to the relevant billing authority under regulation 4(2)(a) —​(i)​is a non-domestic ratepayer in relation to a hereditament situated in the proposed BID;​(ii)​has an interest in land (situated in the area to be comprised in such proposals) as freeholder, mortgagee or lessee, or directly or indirectly receives rent for the land (whether or not they are a non-domestic ratepayer in relation to that land); or​(iii)​is a body (whether corporate or not corporate) one of whose purposes is or includes developing BID proposals; and​(b)​the relevant billing authority.​


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## Gramsci (Aug 13, 2012)

fortyplus said:


> [
> 
> This is very useful information, thanks. It is good to know that most small businesses are included, but there is still a concern about market traders - who would not normally pay business rates on their pitches, as far as I know. Clearly excluding them from the governance of an organisation having such a potential impact on their area would not be a good thing. I would hope that some provision could be made to include market traders in the governance of any Brixton BID.
> 
> The danger with any such initiative is that it ends up being hijacked by the larger organisations. This is simply because the big companies can afford to second someone to engage, while small businesses and sole traders don't have the resources to do so. You say it is incredibly important for local businesses to engage, and I agree, but it's also incredibly important for the people who promote these things to understand how incredibly difficult it is for small businesses to do so. Say a meeting is booked for 4pm - do we shut up shop so we can come?


 
Large property owners in Brixton it appears can be involved in drawing up a BID.

If street market traders do not pay business rates then under the legislation they do not get a vote. I wonder if they realise this as the Chair of BMTA supports the idea of a BID.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 13, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> Answer my own question here. Despite the fact that only business rate payers pay levy owners of property can draw up BID proposals:
> 
> The following persons may draw up BID proposals —
> (a)​any person who, at the date they send BID proposals to the relevant billing authority under regulation 4(2)(a) —​(i)​is a non-domestic ratepayer in relation to a hereditament situated in the proposed BID;​(ii)​has an interest in land (situated in the area to be comprised in such proposals) as freeholder, mortgagee or lessee, or directly or indirectly receives rent for the land (whether or not they are a non-domestic ratepayer in relation to that land); or​(iii)​is a body (whether corporate or not corporate) one of whose purposes is or includes developing BID proposals; and​(b)​the relevant billing authority.​


yeh. but given who's in charge of the purse strings i wouldn't expect these proposals to get anywhere.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 13, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> Large property owners in Brixton it appears can be involved in drawing up a BID.
> 
> If street market traders do not pay business rates then under the legislation they do not get a vote. I wonder if they realise this as the Chair of BMTA supports the idea of a BID.


by 'large property owners' do you mean yuppies or large landlords?


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## Gramsci (Aug 13, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> by 'large property owners' do you mean yuppies or large landlords?


 
Large landlords that own parts of High street and covered markets.

But the SLP article did not name the 10 organisation behind the proposed Brixton BID. So Im in the dark here as are all residents of Brixton as there is not statutory need to tell us. All that needs to happen is that the Council and the proposed BID ballot business rate payers. 

This is what happened in Fitsrovia.


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## Gramsci (Aug 14, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh. but given who's in charge of the purse strings i wouldn't expect these proposals to get anywhere.


 
Not so sure. A BID board would probably be a not for profit company. It can also apply for funding from GLA and Council for projects. So its like a public private partnership relationship between local government and local Business through the BID. The part privatisation issue comes in here that a couple of posters have brought up. When a BID is set up the Council and BID agree what "baseline" services the Council will provide and what the BID will provide. This could get into part privatisation of services.

Also the London BIDs will get access to GLA and TFL:

The Greater London Authority (GLA) supports BIDs by hosting bi-annual round-table meetings between London BIDs and senior GLA group officials; the annual Mayor of London’s BIDs Awards; and political support to help allow BID schemes that conform to the Mayor’s to go ahead. Transport for London (TfL) holds briefing sessions on specific initiatives of interest to BIDs, such as cycling. They also produce a monthly bulletin to update BIDs on relevant projects and news on transport infrastructure developments​ 
My question is were do residents come in all this? Transport infrastructure is also relevant to non business owners. This is where part privatisation of space comes in. Its not so much that the business is given space its that a BID area means that the BID board gets given a lot of weight when decisions are taken.


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## Gramsci (Aug 14, 2012)

Brixton Lioness said:


> An Interim Board would be established after a successful vote and I think that they have 6-12 months to organise an election for permanent Board members. The BID would last for 5 years and then a further vote would be held for its renewal (or not).
> 
> BIDS, if run properly and are fully accountable, can be great for an area. Engagement by local businesses is key to this.


 
This is also an important issue. The articles of association of a proposed BID could mean that non business rate payers could be on board. Also that smaller business rate payers could be excluded from Board. As in Fitzrovia:

"The Articles of Association state that the BID board consists of 3-8 representative members with qualifying contributions of £10, 000 or over per annum. The BID proposal claims that there will be 12 members on the BID board but does not make clear that businesses contributing under £10, 000 are not eligible to be board members except by invitation. Why the deception? Derwent is making a voluntary contribution to ensure its control"

So the devil is in the detail (as usual). The proposed Brixton BID may not be set up like this. Or it might. Either way its potentially important organisation in Brixton.


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## Brixton Hatter (Aug 15, 2012)

I don't think Brixton needs a Business Improvement District. New businesses are falling over themselves to come here, there's loads of proposals for new buildings/flats etc, the area is constantly promoted in the press/media etc. Yes, there is poverty and unemployment, but we're hardly a declining area in the north east with a falling population and all the young people moving out etc.

I suspect this might be 'cooperative council' style move to get businesses to stump up for local improvements so that the council doesn't have to pay for them itself.


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## FitzroviaNews (Aug 27, 2012)

There was a comment by the actor and writer Griff Rhys Jones in the Evening Standard last week about business improvement districts (BIDs). I've tried to find a source for the Brixton BID in the South London Press but not been able to find it. Anyone got details? Where did you see it Gramsci? This blog was also curious about the Brixton BID.


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## Gramsci (Aug 28, 2012)

FitzroviaNews said:


> There was a comment by the actor and writer Griff Rhys Jones in the Evening Standard last week about business improvement districts (BIDs). I've tried to find a source for the Brixton BID in the South London Press but not been able to find it. Anyone got details? Where did you see it Gramsci? This blog was also curious about the Brixton BID.


 
There was article in SLP. Not every article is on the SLP website. The SLP website is partial paywall.


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## Gramsci (Sep 7, 2012)

Article in Brixton Blog about BID and interview with one of the people behind it.


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## editor (Jun 25, 2013)

This seems to be becoming more and more likely.

I remain a tad cynical seeing as it seems to require zero input from residents.

There's a site set up against them here: 


> Against BIDs is intended to be a news blog taking a critical look at the increasing use of Business Improvement Districts (BIDs) to part-privatise our streets and public open spaces, and the increasing use of private security. The focus of this news blog is about BIDs in London, but we welcome contributions from elsewhere in the UK, Europe, the USA and worldwide. We are looking for authors to collaborate with this news blog.
> 
> A brief history of BIDs
> 
> ...


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## snowy_again (Jun 25, 2013)

They're not for residents though are they - they're for businesses.


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## editor (Jun 25, 2013)

snowy_again said:


> They're not for residents though are they - they're for businesses.


It's something that's quite likely to have some sort of impact on us though, one way or another. At least we can have some influence on what our rates get used for.


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## editor (Jun 28, 2013)

Been hearing a bit more about this. It seems that not all local businesses are on-message with this bid concept, and there could be the potential for a bit of _snouts in the trough-age_ with some insider entrepreneurial types looking to exploit the expanded revenue flow that a favourable outcome may bring them - and that may hurt other similar businesses who aren't being included in this highly selective process.

Can't say any more for now, sorry.


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## CH1 (Jun 28, 2013)

The vote in favour for a BID in Streatham was hardly resounding, despite it being vigorously backed by MP Chuka - at least according to his website.
http://www.lambeth.gov.uk/NR/rdonly...5FD71346CE05/0/StreathamBIDBallotOfficial.pdf
Cynical as ever I had thought it was a new business-oriented variant of the "Wimbledon Common rate" - i.e. a surcharge to pay for servicing a common right - in our case the right to operate or use a shop in Brixton.


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## editor (Jun 28, 2013)

Interesting piece here: London BIDs: friends and foes


> BIDs have been around in London for around ten years. I'm told there are around 20 of them now, including the New West End Company, London Riverside and Camden Town Unlimited. Boris Johnson is a fan, but not everyone is.
> 
> Not far from "Midtown" a proposed BID for Fitzrovia has been met with deep suspicion atFitzrovia News, which is urging Camden Council to exercise its power of veto. The authorswrite:
> 
> ...


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## Sirena (Oct 24, 2013)

I understand the Brixton Bid organization will have eight salaried staff initially, though I don't know the details of the salary levels they will grant themselves.  

I suspect - if the bid succeeds - this will just be the first step towards the growth of a monster.


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## editor (Oct 24, 2013)

The more I hear about BIDs the more dubious I become.


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## Rushy (Oct 24, 2013)

I have seen at least one person with a rates hike quite literally frothing with rage about it!


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## Sirena (Oct 24, 2013)

I can't see much in the brochure that falls outside what you would normally expect the Council to be doing.  There is something about setting up collective negotiation mechanisms to get better deals on phone services (or whatever businesses might need) but you have to set any speculative savings against the annual levy you will have to pay.  It could work out businesses will end up worse off even if they take advantage of these negotiated deals.

It seems the Council might be keen to promote the Bid in order to outsource (privatise) certain areas of their responsibilities, in a way that will be paid largely by businesses who are already paying for the same services through their rates.  And, once the levy is introduced, it would create a precedent and there would be no way to be sure that the business levy would not be racked up in subsequent years.  Businesses would then become hostages to fortune.

And, in case people think 'it's just businesses - they can pay it', you have to remember that Brixton is full of small businesses, already struggling to make ends meet in a depressed business world.


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## 8ball (Oct 24, 2013)

editor said:


> The more I hear about BIDs the more dubious I become.


 
Never even heard the term.  Is it an area where you're only allowed to trade if you're really good or something?


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## Sirena (Oct 24, 2013)

8ball said:


> Never even heard the term.  Is it an area where you're only allowed to trade if you're really good or something?


A private company will be set up, half funded by the Council and half paid by a levy on local businesses, based on the size of their business properties.  The private company will have staff and a Committee made up of certain local business people and they will create initiatives to bring more people into Brixton (that sort of thing).  But most of the areas they are proposing to work in are areas you would normally expect to be the responsibility of the Council.

It seems to me that, if businesses want to propose initiatives, they could do this easily through an (unpaid) Committee and pass their proposals through to the Council.


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## 8ball (Oct 24, 2013)

It sounds a bit like one of those admin tricks that basically passes public money into private hands.


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## editor (Oct 24, 2013)

There's no shortage of local concerns all lobbying to get their greasy palms on some of the BID moollah too.


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## 8ball (Oct 24, 2013)

So who owns the 'private business that is set up'?


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## youngian (Oct 24, 2013)

Brixton centre isn't an homgenous shopping destination in the same way as some of the other BIDs are. It has a different character to Fitzrovia but the arguments Rhys Jones was putting forward are similar to Brixton.


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## 8ball (Oct 24, 2013)

Brixton seems like a weirdly structured place to me.  Absolutely lovely in the summer, a little bit _Bladerunner_ in the winter (with some suitably lovely Japanese food on Coldharbour Lane).

I do like the 'organic' feel of Brixton, the way it feels unplanned and like it 'just happened'.  Schemes like this, aside from my political reservations, smack of overthinking and 'brand management'.

I'm in full 'whimsically talking shite' mode tonight.


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## Sirena (Oct 24, 2013)

8ball said:


> So who owns the 'private business that is set up'?


 
I think it will be a partnership but of whom I don't know.


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## 8ball (Oct 24, 2013)

Sirena said:


> I think it will be a partnership but of whom I don't know.


 
That's the tricky bit - if it's 'private', then who is it accountable to?


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## Effrasurfer (Oct 24, 2013)

Oddly enough, our TRA has been sent a BID ballot form with a covering letter from the council saying they are in favour.


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## Sirena (Oct 24, 2013)

Effrasurfer said:


> Oddly enough, our TRA has been sent a BID ballot form with a covering letter from the council saying they are in favour.


The Council are pushing the concept quite hard and will already have supplied the Bid company with details of the rates paid by your TRA (whatever one of those is......) and other relevant information about it.


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## Gramsci (Oct 25, 2013)

Sirena said:


> And, in case people think 'it's just businesses - they can pay it', you have to remember that Brixton is full of small businesses, already struggling to make ends meet in a depressed business world.



One I talked to recently is only just getting by week by week.


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## Gramsci (Oct 25, 2013)

Effrasurfer said:


> Oddly enough, our TRA has been sent a BID ballot form with a covering letter from the council saying they are in favour.



I am intrigued by this. I thought the ballot would be only of the business owners in the BID area.

So does your TRA get a vote on this BID?

One of the problems with the BID idea is also that residents do not get a say. Brixton is also a residential area.

BIDs work with Council and Police. But if you are a resident u do not get a say. Some BIDs for example employ there own security staff/ wardens to patrol the BID. I would be concerned if issues around policing and street life started to be controlled by a body I as resident can have no say over.


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## Sirena (Oct 25, 2013)

What's a TRA?


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## Gramsci (Oct 25, 2013)

I did point out to one of the main movers behind the BID that residents do not get a say in it. He replied they were looking into it and were thinking of possible resident involvement. Whatever that is he did not elaborate. It certainly would be at the largesse of the BID. Its not a requirement.


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## Gramsci (Oct 25, 2013)

Sirena said:


> What's a TRA?



Tenants and Residents Association.

Residents as Council estates also have leaseholders under RTB.

Probably one on a Council estate as the Council sent letter to the TRA.


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## Sirena (Oct 25, 2013)

Gramsci said:


> Tenants and Residents Association.
> 
> Residents as Council estates also have leaseholders under RTB.
> 
> Probably one on a Council estate as the Council sent letter to the TRA.


Does a TRA have a rateable business premises or is it just a committee?  I understood the former was required to qualify for involvement in (and payment to...) the bid


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## Gramsci (Oct 25, 2013)

youngian said:


> Brixton centre isn't an homgenous shopping destination in the same way as some of the other BIDs are. It has a different character to Fitzrovia but the arguments Rhys Jones was putting forward are similar to Brixton.



I think the one BID that is comparable to Brixton would be the Camden one. 

The central London ones are led by larger developers/ owners. Which is why the Fitsrovia one is controversial. 

The argument for one put to me was that the Council are encouraging them. That if local people do not set one up a larger owner / business might. That it is necessary to make sure a BID is set up including all the smaller shops. That it would be there to try to protect the long time small business/ shop keepers.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 25, 2013)

Sirena said:


> Does a TRA have a rateable business premises or is it just a committee?  I understood the former was required to qualify for involvement in (and payment to...) the bid



Really a question for Effrasurfer

I would think that a TRA would be just a committee.

Which is why I wondered that they got a ballot paper.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 25, 2013)

Sirena said:


> I can't see much in the brochure that falls outside what you would normally expect the Council to be doing.



Can u post up the brochure?


----------



## Sirena (Oct 25, 2013)

Gramsci said:


> That if local people do not set one up a larger owner / business might. That it is necessary to make sure a BID is set up including all the smaller shops. That it would be there to try to protect the long time small business/ shop keepers.


I think a simple majority of local businesses have to vote yes for a bid to succeed, so there is little scope for an outsider or a large commercial enterprise to bully their way in because they would not get enough local support to succeed.

I think the Council here is trying to create the impression that the bid is inevitable and it would be better if it were local small businesses involved.  But, so far as I can see, there is absolutely no need or justification for one in Brixton.  Bring more people to Brixton?  Brixton has never been busier and probably couldn't cope with more people coming in.  Bring more business in?  I get the feeling there is already a queue of business wanting to come in.

My objection is that I just don't like unnecessary governmental or sub-governmental organizations or pointless quangos.  And I certainly don't like the precedent of paying extra for what we should already be receiving.  And I don't like the idea of snouts in the trough.


----------



## Sirena (Oct 25, 2013)

Gramsci said:


> Can u post up the brochure?


 My handy little brochure is at work.  I think this site (http://www.brixtonbid.co.uk/) is really the same as the brochure, if you can open it.  My computer is a bit slow and I couldn't open the link to see everything that was in it.


----------



## Sirena (Oct 25, 2013)

Gramsci said:


> I did point out to one of the main movers behind the BID that residents do not get a say in it. He replied they were looking into it and were thinking of possible resident involvement. Whatever that is he did not elaborate. It certainly would be at the largesse of the BID. Its not a requirement.


 Be careful of that because that might put the idea into their heads to extend the scheme to residents too.  And that may mean they will be levied too.

It's this idea of the levy being used as a precedent that worries me.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 25, 2013)

I took the Chevy to the levy but the levy was dry.


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## Effrasurfer (Oct 26, 2013)

Gramsci said:


> Really a question for Effrasurfer
> 
> I would think that a TRA would be just a committee.
> 
> Which is why I wondered that they got a ballot paper.



Yes, it's a bit mystifying. Unless our Bar and Social Club pays business rates, but I've never heard them mention it.


----------



## CH1 (Oct 26, 2013)

Sirena said:


> My handy little brochure is at work.  I think this site (http://www.brixtonbid.co.uk/) is really the same as the brochure, if you can open it.  My computer is a bit slow and I couldn't open the link to see everything that was in it.


I'm dying to know if the vice chair of Brixton BID has sorted his licensing issues out. Emergency licence meeting on Wednesday morning following the shooting incident at the veranda the previousSaturday night. Since when total silence. Nothing in Standard, SLP or on Urban. Maybe it just never happened?


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 26, 2013)

CH1 said:


> I'm dying to know if the vice chair of Brixton BID has sorted his licensing issues out. Emergency licence meeting on Wednesday morning following the shooting incident at the veranda the previousSaturday night. Since when total silence. Nothing in Standard, SLP or on Urban. Maybe it just never happened?



Its on page 12 of this Fridays SLP.


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## Manter (Oct 26, 2013)

Gramsci said:


> Its on page 12 of this Fridays SLP.


What was the conclusion? I don't see SLP regularly


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## Gramsci (Oct 26, 2013)

Sirena said:


> Be careful of that because that might put the idea into their heads to extend the scheme to residents too.  And that may mean they will be levied too.
> 
> It's this idea of the levy being used as a precedent that worries me.



BIDs are only for business. 

Thanks for link to the Brixton BID website. 

I see the principal of Lambeth College is involved. The same one who is doing his bit to make Brixton a better place by proposing to sell the college site on Brixton Hill to a developer. 

Apart from that some of the things proposed the Council should be doing. Such as extra street cleaning. 

I agree there is danger that Council could unload some of its responsibilities onto a BID. Easy way to make cuts in services and expect a quango to replace them. 

See there is no mention of asking what Brixton residents might want or nor want.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 27, 2013)

Manter said:


> What was the conclusion? I don't see SLP regularly



A man was shot in the leg. Trident are asking for witnesses. Police say some people have come forward.

There website says they are closed 

Due to "unforeseen circumstances".


----------



## Manter (Oct 27, 2013)

Thx


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## CH1 (Oct 27, 2013)

Gramsci said:


> A man was shot in the leg. There website says they are closed
> Due to "unforeseen circumstances".


Must have got a temporary suspension then.
Funny how Lambeth Committee section Tweet away at normal licensing hearings, but give no info on their "specials".


----------



## CH1 (Nov 13, 2013)

Brixton Blog is tweeting that 83% of eligible businesses voted yes on a 31.5% turnout.
Anyone know if this means it goes ahead or not?


----------



## DietCokeGirl (Nov 13, 2013)

The process was a joke - I had a couple of attempts at finding out of I was eligible to vote, as a business leaseholder, but found it impossible to get hold of anyone from their side.


----------



## CH1 (Nov 13, 2013)

DietCokeGirl said:


> The process was a joke - I had a couple of attempts at finding out of I was eligible to vote, as a business leaseholder, but found it impossible to get hold of anyone from their side.


I would like to know who is paying for it - given there is a budget of £435,000 apparently. Obviously Morelys (department store - not fried chickens). Yet another price hike in store at the Ritzy? Mind you if the Academy have to pay a bid wad that's great - a bit of inward investment from people who only come here for the bands and probably go straight home again at 11 pm.


----------



## editor (Nov 13, 2013)

It gets 'vibrant,' 'hub' and 'iconic' in its first intro paragraph too.  


> Brixton, already identified as one of Greater London’s 35 major centres, is an up-and-coming district, bursting with vibrant street culture. As a major hub for South London commuters, Brixton is famed for its market, its iconic streets and its notable roots in the music industry (to name just a few)
> http://www.brixtonbid.co.uk/aboutus.html


----------



## CH1 (Nov 13, 2013)

editor said:


> It gets 'vibrant,' 'hub' and 'iconic' in its first intro paragraph too.


What iconic streets did they have in mind?


----------



## Gramsci (Nov 14, 2013)

CH1 said:


> I would like to know who is paying for it - given there is a budget of £435,000 apparently. Obviously Morelys (department store - not fried chickens). Yet another price hike in store at the Ritzy? Mind you if the Academy have to pay a bid wad that's great - a bit of inward investment from people who only come here for the bands and probably go straight home again at 11 pm.



The budget is from the levy on top of business rates. According to Brixton Blog is will be 



> It will be funded by an additional levy of 1.5% on all businesses with a rateable value above £5,000.



The vote on a turnout of 31.5% of those eligable to vote was for yes.

It will therefore be officially set up. 

The levy on top of business rates is levied on a business whether it wants to be part of BID or not. This is not a voluntary organisation. If you set up a business in the BID area you will pay the extra levy whether you like it or not. 

I have had a couple of shopkeepers complain about this. Its about an extra £300 on top of business rates for average shop. So its not insignificant amount for hard pressed local business. 

Also its thought that the market stallholders will not pay anything towards the BID even though they are represented on the BID board. 

Seems to me there is a lot of grumbling going on about the BID. Not everyone sees the point of it. Or what exactly its supposed to do to make a difference to there business.


----------



## Gramsci (Nov 14, 2013)

DietCokeGirl said:


> The process was a joke - I had a couple of attempts at finding out of I was eligible to vote, as a business leaseholder, but found it impossible to get hold of anyone from their side.



I have had shopkeeper ask me about when vote was supposed to happen as he had not had voting papers. I wonder if everyone eligible to vote was notified.


----------



## editor (Nov 14, 2013)

Gramsci said:


> The levy on top of business rates is levied on a business whether it wants to be part of BID or not. This is not a voluntary organisation. If you set up a business in the BID area you will pay the extra levy whether you like it or not.
> 
> I have had a couple of shopkeepers complain about this. Its about an extra £300 on top of business rates for average shop. So its not insignificant amount for hard pressed local business.


And as far as I can understand it, they are unlikely to have any real input on what they will spend all that money on. Have I got that right?


----------



## Gramsci (Nov 14, 2013)

editor said:


> And as far as I can understand it, they are unlikely to have any real input on what they will spend all that money on. Have I got that right?



Looking at the website it has business plan and board members already. Now that has been a vote  for yes it will be set up to start beginning of next year (Jan 1st according to BB). So I reckon the BID board would reckon that a Yes vote is a vote of confidence in the business plan. 

I cannot see structure of BID company ( it will be a company) on the website. So do not know if board will be elected every year. 

My problem is that this is not voluntary organization. Now its voted in its compulsory.


----------



## Gramsci (Nov 14, 2013)

Actually I was incorrect about the levy. It will only cover some of the projected budget. 

The BID levy will amount to £335 000 a year. They are assuming they will bring in grants of £100 000 a year. Making total of £435 000 a year. (page 18 of business plan).


----------



## CH1 (Nov 14, 2013)

Gramsci said:


> My problem is that this is not voluntary organization. Now its voted in its compulsory.


My problem is that we seem to get endless consultation - often as not attended by 8 people of whom half are officers. And the end result is construed to be in support of what the expensive consultants said in the first place.
I would like to see less fripperies in Brixton and more preservation of essential services.


----------



## Gramsci (Nov 14, 2013)

CH1 said:


> My problem is that we seem to get endless consultation - often as not attended by 8 people of whom half are officers. And the end result is construed to be in support of what the expensive consultants said in the first place.
> I would like to see less fripperies in Brixton and more preservation of essential services.



As one of the shopkeepers said he already pays business rates. This should cover such things as looking after the streets etc.

According to the business plan part of the levy will pay for road sweeping, Lambeth College to "deliver training" , "Greening and place making".

All things that the Council / Government should be doing already I would have thought.

Also 26% of Levy will go on marketing. As the shopkeepers said they do not need this.


----------



## CH1 (Nov 15, 2013)

Gramsci said:


> As one of the shopkeepers said he already pays business rates. This should cover such things as looking after the streets etc.
> According to the business plan part of the levy will pay for road sweeping, Lambeth College to "deliver training" , "Greening and place making".
> All things that the Council / Government should be doing already I would have thought.
> Also 26% of Levy will go on marketing. As the shopkeepers said they do not need this.


A bit rich showing a map featuring Lambeth College (Brixton Campus) on the BID web site suggesting it is for training - when the authorities are planning to sell the site for property development!


----------



## editor (Nov 15, 2013)

Talking to a few local businesses tonight about the BID. They are NOT happy.


----------



## editor (Nov 15, 2013)

Gramsci said:


> Also 26% of Levy will go on marketing.


And there'll be snouts in the trough for that too, mark my words.


----------



## DrRingDing (Nov 15, 2013)

Are they having the private police in with this too?


----------



## editor (Nov 15, 2013)

DrRingDing said:


> Are they having the private police in with this too?


Who knows? It's all privately arranged stuff where the views of the public are neither wanted or elicited. 

This is worth reposting: 


> BIDs have been accused of being by their very nature undemocratic, and that they concentrate power in a geographic area into the hands of the few.[15] Small businesses who fall below the BID levy threshold, although not liable to pay the BID levy, are often priced out of an area because BIDs tend to increase rental values. Larger businesses are more able to absorb these rent increases, particularly the multiple stores.
> 
> BIDs have also been criticized in the past by anti-poverty groups for being too harsh on the homeless and poor who may congregate around businesses.[17] BIDs have also been known to be opposed to street vendors such as hot dog vendors and chip wagons.[citation needed] In London, street traders who sold small items to tourists were barred from Oxford Street in London.
> 
> ...


And...


> This month, behind closed doors, the Fitzrovia Partnership has corralled the larger businesses of Fitzrovia into a “Business Improvement District” (BID). Under the sponsorship of a property developer, these companies will put money into a central fund to “improve” this much-loved district — for business.
> 
> I asked my barber what he thought of it. He had never heard of the BID. Neither had my optician, my newsagent, or Honey, the miniature miracle of a Lebanese café where I had lunch. Only businesses with a rateable value over £100,000 are eligible to vote.
> 
> ...


----------



## DrRingDing (Nov 15, 2013)

"intriguing small shops"


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## editor (Nov 15, 2013)

DrRingDing said:


> "intriguing small shops"


Is that phrase really important in the grand scheme of things?


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## CH1 (Feb 17, 2014)

Who will be the lucky jackpot winner tomorrow?
*Up to £65,000* to advise Brixton businesses to improve themselves.
Local person, north London entryist, C + F fancier or Beehive boozer?


I hope we will be told. My bet's on an insider.


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## editor (Feb 17, 2014)

I've been hearing of a growing unrest among some of the businesses who have been invited/compelled/coerced to participate.


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## CH1 (Feb 17, 2014)

editor said:


> I've been hearing of a growing unrest among some of the businesses who have been invited/compelled/coerced to participate.


Not surprised. Yet more consultant capture IMHO.


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## TruXta (Feb 17, 2014)

The Fitzrovia BID one year on

http://news.fitzrovia.org.uk/2013/09/03/whats-in-store-the-fitzrovia-partnership-bid-one-year-on/

Excerpt


> Since its inception many local people have held a deep distrust for the Fitzrovia BID: a public-private partnership with Camden Council. There was no consultation with residents and small businesses, and _Fitzrovia News_ had to make Freedom of Information Requests to Camden Council to extract information about the BID. Since then some concessions have been won: there are seats on the board of the BID for residents and small businesses, and _Fitzrovia News_ has been invited to briefings.
> 
> Visibly, little has changed over the last year in Fitzrovia. There are no unsightly canvas banners hanging from lamposts or garish posters declaring “Enjoy Fitzrovia”. Little to suggest marketing Fitzrovia on a large scale and pushing the hours of commercial activity.
> 
> There has, however, been an increase in alcohol licence applications and change of use from retail to restaurant in the BID area, but this may not be directly linked to the Fitzrovia BID’s efforts to market the Charlotte Street area as an eating and drinking destination. Some of these changes are the result of the coalition government’s deregulation of town planning regulations. There is no longer a need to submit a planning application for change of use from retail to restaurant use and several premises in Fitzrovia have now taken the opportunity to make use of this. There is also a London-wide trend for new restaurant openings.


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## editor (Feb 17, 2014)

I know that several people involved in the BID read this thread. Wouldn't it be great if they took a little bit of time out to explain more about their proposals and point out the benefits to the wider community?


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## Brixton Hatter (Feb 18, 2014)

65 grand! 

Nice work if you can get it. 

No wonder some of the businesses are annoyed at having to chuck cash into this….

The sort of person a job like this is likely to attract, makes me worry….


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## FridgeMagnet (Feb 18, 2014)

I am glad to see that my initial scepticism has been borne out (though it wasn't a tough one really).


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## Rushy (Feb 18, 2014)

If any of the BID team are gullible enough to be goaded into a U75 anti-capitalist bunfight, they deserve to fail.


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## Rushy (Feb 18, 2014)

Interesting to see that Paul Bassey is still on the BID board after his dire performance managing Veranda.


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## TruXta (Feb 18, 2014)

Rushy said:


> If any of the BID team are gullible enough to be goaded into a U75 anti-capitalist bunfight, they deserve to fail.


Errrr... so there's no reasonable criticism of the BID that isn't anti-capitalist?


----------



## Rushy (Feb 18, 2014)

TruXta said:


> Errrr... so there's no reasonable criticism of the BID that isn't anti-capitalist?


I didn't say that, _did _I.  But your comment helps illustrate why they are simply better off steering clear of engagement on the boards if they want to maintain a professional and business like manner image. According to Ed they read it, so by expressing your concerns on here you will be presumably be heard, even if you don't get a reply.


----------



## TruXta (Feb 18, 2014)

Rushy said:


> I didn't say that, _did _I.  But your comment helps illustrate why they are simply better off steering clear of engagement on the boards if they want to maintain a professional and business like manner image. According to Ed they read it, so by expressing your concerns on here you will be presumably be heard, even if you don't get a reply.


You very much implied it. Either way the likes of these people are never gonna chance doing real community engagement - even narrowing the definition of "community" to the whole business community - as doing so would so quickly expose the basic shortcomings of this and similar schemes.


----------



## CH1 (Feb 18, 2014)

Rushy said:


> Interesting to see that Paul Bassey is still on the BID board after his dire performance managing Veranda.


Does the BID board operate by a constitution then?


----------



## Rushy (Feb 18, 2014)

CH1 said:


> Does the BID board operate by a constitution then?


I've no idea. Why?


----------



## CH1 (Feb 18, 2014)

Rushy said:


> I've no idea. Why?


Well that would determine if you had to resign if your performance was "dire"
I see the the total budget over the period 2104 - 2019 is £2,326,961 of which £500,000 is scheduled to be public money.

A bit worrying if an amorphous body with no constitution is handling that sort of money.

Precedent suggests much will vanish unaccountably.


----------



## TruXta (Feb 18, 2014)

I presume the BID voting members will decide whether the BID as a whole is worth it through the ballot box every 4 years or whatever it is.


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## CH1 (Feb 18, 2014)

TruXta said:


> I presume the BID voting members will decide whether the BID as a whole is worth it through the ballot box every 4 years or whatever it is.


They should have the right to do it every year - so they can adjust or scrap the 3% business rate levy accordingly, I feel.


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## TruXta (Feb 18, 2014)

CH1 said:


> They should have the right to do it every year - so they can adjust or scrap the 3% business rate levy accordingly, I feel.


I agree, but from a cursory reading it doesn't seem to be the case generally. This page has some more info http://www.britishbids.info/AboutBIDs/WhatisaBID.aspx


----------



## editor (Feb 18, 2014)

Rushy said:


> I didn't say that, _did _I.  But your comment helps illustrate why they are simply better off steering clear of engagement on the boards if they want to maintain a professional and business like manner image.


Not sure why you're so confident that the two are mutually exclusive. If the idea is sound and genuinely good for the community, then it should be able to stand up to a bit of scrutiny. Most people I know - including some local businesses - genuinely have trouble understanding the exact benefits and mechanism of the BID in Brixton.


----------



## TruXta (Feb 18, 2014)

editor said:


> Not sure why you're so confident that the two are mutually exclusive. If the idea is sound and genuinely good for the community, then it should be able to stand up to a bit of scrutiny. Most people I know - including some local businesses - genuinely have trouble understanding the exact benefits and mechanism of the BID in Brixton.


That'd be because the benefits can't be quantified beforehand. It's essentially a punt - put x money into this scheme and we promise to make x+y amount of money for all.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 18, 2014)

TruXta said:


> That'd be because the benefits can't be quantified beforehand. It's essentially a punt - put x money into this scheme and we promise to make x+y amount of money for all.


tbh it's not imo a punt, it's a certainty that this (bid) isn't going to do anything for the sort of brixton most people here seem to want.


----------



## TruXta (Feb 18, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> tbh it's not imo a punt, it's a certainty that this (bid) isn't going to do anything for the sort of brixton most people here seem to want.


Well, if you put it like that.


----------



## editor (Feb 21, 2014)

I'm out in Brixton now and am hearing more about businesses who feel that they've been steamrollered into the BID.


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## editor (Feb 21, 2014)

I now know of at least two businesses who are now thinking of withholding their payments, such is their unhappiness in the way that this is being handled. "Jobs for the boys" seems to be the most common criticism.


----------



## :-D (Feb 21, 2014)

I run a business that'll be affected by the charge and I'm not happy. I voted against it but I know many others who don't see the value of this BID didn't. So with a 'Yes' vote from 26% from those eligible to vote they have given themselves a mandate to spend my money ( which Lambeth council collect on their behalf, apparently for a fee )
There was nothing described to me by their happy clappers that wasn't already being done or offered elsewhere. Nearly 3/4 of businesses affected by this didn't want it,so why are we  paying to be in this  cosy little club.


----------



## Rushy (Feb 21, 2014)

83% of those who turned out voted yes.
But is was only a 31% turn out.
IMO it is also a good example of why minimum turnout requirements should be set to carry action.

Still, it was a bit silly of people not to vote if they felt strongly about it.


----------



## editor (Feb 21, 2014)

Rushy said:


> 83% of those who turned out voted yes.
> But is was only a 31% turn out.
> IMO it is also a good example of why minimum turnout requirements should be set to carry action.
> 
> Still, it was a bit silly of people not to vote if they felt strongly about it.


I imagine that a lot of businesses have got far better things to do than get involved in these things, especially when it seems that the consequences of the voting procedures weren't adequately explained to them.

Exactly how many people voted?  

And seeing as they're asking for money off businesses, surely a non-vote should count as a no vote?


----------



## :-D (Feb 21, 2014)

Rushy said:


> 83% of those who turned out voted yes.
> But is was only a 31% turn out.
> IMO it is also a good example of why minimum turnout requirements should be set to carry action.
> 
> Still, it was a bit silly of people not to vote if they felt strongly about it.




Organ donor card


----------



## :-D (Feb 21, 2014)

10 or 20 years ago this would have sounded like a good idea but as you'll gather by the property prices in foxtons window, there are people out there, who are happy to pay a lot of money to live here now!  
My concern is the effect all this popularity is having on business rents.


----------



## Rushy (Feb 21, 2014)

editor said:


> And seeing as they're asking for money off businesses, surely a non-vote should count as a no vote?


Er - why? People should be free to take no interest / have no opinion / allow their vote to go either way / go to the pub instead without having their opinion dictated to them.
A low turn out suggests a general lack of engagement, so there should be a threshold turnout below which the action fails.


----------



## Rushy (Feb 21, 2014)

:-D said:


> Organ donor card


Not quite sure I understand your point. Did you mean to quote Ed's post rather than mine?

Good name , by the way!


----------



## editor (Feb 21, 2014)

Rushy said:


> Er - why? People should be free to take no interest / have no opinion / allow their vote to go either way / go to the pub instead without having their opinion dictated to them.


Except not being interested in this particular niche scheme can end up with your small business being compelled to hand over money.


Rushy said:


> A low turn out suggests a general lack of engagement, so there should be a threshold turnout below which the action fails.


Well, indeed, and I'd suggest the low level of engagement in this BID should have stopped it in its tracks.


----------



## :-D (Feb 21, 2014)

Rushy said:


> Not quite sure I understand your point. Did you mean to quote Ed's post rather than mine?
> 
> Good name , by the way!



Sorry, you're right, wrong post. I'm a bit new to this game, hence the hour it took me to come up with a nom de plume.


----------



## editor (Feb 21, 2014)

Market Row Wines aren't happy either.


----------



## Sirena (Feb 21, 2014)

I had my bill a couple of weeks ago too.  It was only £25 but (if I remember rightly) my resident parking bill was only £40 the first time I got it and now look at it....!

I think it would be interesting to have a look at all who were invited to vote.  I am not sure they were all businesses paying business rates.

And, as I mentioned before, once a precedent has been set, once the foot is in the door, there's no telling where it might go.  Businesses today, residents tomorrow....


----------



## :-D (Feb 21, 2014)

Sirena said:


> I had my bill a couple of weeks ago too.  It was only £25 but (if I remember rightly) my resident parking bill was only £40 the first time I got it and now look at it....!
> 
> I think it would be interesting to have a look at all who were invited to vote.  I am not sure they were all businesses paying business rates.
> 
> And, as I mentioned before, once a precedent has been set, once the foot is in the door, there's no telling where it might go.  Businesses today, residents tomorrow....


When the nice lady from BID came canvassing, if I understood how she explained it, every business location with a rateable value over 5000 that is located within the designated inclusion zone gets 1 vote....so that means Sainsburys gets like, 6 votes to my 1. 

Cool!


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## ViolentPanda (Feb 22, 2014)

Rushy said:


> Er - why?



Because a non-vote is otherwise taken as an endorsement, when it isn't.



> People should be free to take no interest / have no opinion / allow their vote to go either way / go to the pub instead without having their opinion dictated to them.
> A low turn out suggests a general lack of engagement, so there should be a threshold turnout below which the action fails.



A low turn out can suggest a lot of different things, not just a lack of engagement.  It might, for example, suggest a level of disenchantment with the council so deep that traders can't bring themselves to interact with the town hall scrotums.


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## FridgeMagnet (Feb 22, 2014)

And/or that people assume that whatever happens the council and the big players will just force through whatever they wanted to and their voting won't make any difference anyway, so they might as well get on with some real work instead of bothering with this nonsense. Which is hardly an irrational position.


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## Sirena (Feb 22, 2014)

:-D said:


> When the nice lady from BID came canvassing, if I understood how she explained it, every business location with a rateable value over 5000 that is located within the designated inclusion zone gets 1 vote....so that means Sainsburys gets like, 6 votes to my 1.
> 
> Cool!


If you check back to p2 of this thread, you will see that Tenants and Residents Associations were also invited to vote, even though I do not believe they are businesses with rateable business premises. I may be wrong, though.


----------



## editor (Feb 22, 2014)

Sirena said:


> If you check back to p2 of this thread, you will see that Tenants and Residents Associations were also invited to vote, even though I do not believe they are businesses with rateable business premises. I may be wrong, though.


We weren't.


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## ViolentPanda (Feb 23, 2014)

FridgeMagnet said:


> And/or that people assume that whatever happens the council and the big players will just force through whatever they wanted to and their voting won't make any difference anyway, so they might as well get on with some real work instead of bothering with this nonsense. Which is hardly an irrational position.



That too!


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## :-D (Feb 24, 2014)

I'm still not happy,

 I'm a shopkeeper within the area affected by the BID and can confirm that every other shopkeeper I've spoken to who didn't vote, feel that this initiative doesn't hold anything of benefit for them. Au contraire, we see a scheme which will benefit a minority of board members. Whose levy will increase dramatically over the next 5 years for no discernible benefit to us.
I can't see any economy of scale savings for any business services that aren't available to me already if I shop around. 

It's here now and I can't see the possibility of asking for a second vote.

I want as little to do with this as possible.

Are there any other shopkeepers out there who feel the same and fancy being a bit non cooperative with BID?

I've already checked to see what the maximum quantity of small coins I can use to pay the levy and if anyone with a legal bent could suggest other ways to demonstrate not being a happy bunny, I'm all ears!


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## editor (Feb 24, 2014)

:-D said:


> Are there any other shopkeepers out there who feel the same and fancy being a bit non cooperative with BID?


*Tweeted....


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## editor (Nov 13, 2014)

it looks like a lot of these businesses that the BID is supposed to be helping aren't keen on being forced to pay for the privilege: 

Lambeth Council issues court summons to 141 Brixton businesses for non-payment of Brixton BID



> Lambeth Council has issued court summons to 141 local Brixton businesses for non-payment of the BrixtonBusiness Improvement District [BID] levy.
> 
> The Council has so far spent £23,970 on legal action against local traders. In total 255 businesses out of 721 in Brixton still have an outstanding balance on the BID levy – 35% of all businesses.
> 
> ...


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## shakespearegirl (Nov 13, 2014)

Absolutely fucking ridiculous. Forcing small businesses to contribute to a scheme they haven't agreed to be part of.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 13, 2014)

editor said:


> it looks like a lot of these businesses that the BID is supposed to be helping aren't keen on being forced to pay for the privilege:
> 
> Lambeth Council issues court summons to 141 Brixton businesses for non-payment of Brixton BID


how much are the lambeth mafia demanding?


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## mwgdrwg (Nov 13, 2014)

editor said:


> Market Row Wines aren't happy either.




Perhaps they should've voted.


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## editor (Nov 13, 2014)

mwgdrwg said:


> Perhaps they should've voted.


It seems that a lot of businesses were too busy, well, getting on with doing their business to go through all the gumph about the BID, and a few have also said that they had no idea that the charges were going to be forced on them regardless.

I also know of at least one business that walked out of their meetings because they thought it was a complete waste of time, and another that was so angered by the way this appeared to have been steamrollered through that they were considering paying off the charge in pennies: frozen in a block of ice!


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## mwgdrwg (Nov 13, 2014)

editor said:


> It seems that a lot of businesses were too busy, well, getting on with doing their business to go through all the gumph about the BID, and a few have also said that they had no idea that the charges were going to be forced on them regardless.
> 
> I also know of at least one business that walked out of their meetings because they thought it was a complete waste of time, and another that was so angered by the way this appeared to have been steamrollered through that they were considering paying off the charge in pennies: frozen in a block of ice!



If the business was unaware due to a lack of communication from the local authority, then I can see why there's anger.

But that quote in isolation seems like crying over spilt milk. Why did they choose not to vote?


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## editor (Nov 13, 2014)

mwgdrwg said:


> If the business was unaware due to a lack of communication from the local authority, then I can see why there's anger.


There does appear to have been a real lack of communication.


mwgdrwg said:


> But that quote in isolation seems like crying over spilt milk. Why did they choose not to vote?


Perhaps they were just to damn busy working their small business.

Either way, the BID should never have been allowed to go through with such piss-poor community engagement - and that's the fault of the BID team, not the businesses.


> Out of the 721 local businesses in the catchment area, only 227 voted, with 183 of these voting yes to set up the BID – a number lower than the 255 businesses that haven’t paid the non-negotiable BID contribution.


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## mwgdrwg (Nov 13, 2014)

editor said:


> There does appear to have been a real lack of communication.
> Perhaps they were just to damn busy working their small business.
> 
> Either way, the BID should never have been allowed to go through with such piss-poor community engagement - and that's the fault of the BID team, not the businesses.



With such a low turnout it does seem like the whole thing wasn't run properly at all. 

Saying that, If I was aware of a vote about possible business rate increases then I'd make sure to vote, instead of choosing not to.


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## editor (Nov 13, 2014)

mwgdrwg said:


> With such a low turnout it does seem like the whole thing wasn't run properly at all.
> 
> Saying that, If I was aware of a vote about possible business rate increases then I'd make sure to vote, instead of choosing not to.


Yes, you've made that point, but then you're assuming that the full ramifications of the BID were carefully explained to each of the 721 businesses.


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## Tolpuddle (Nov 13, 2014)

:-D said:


> I've already checked to see what the maximum quantity of small coins I can use to pay the levy and if anyone with a legal bent could suggest other ways to demonstrate not being a happy bunny, I'm all ears!



I wonder if they take the Brixton Pound?


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## editor (Dec 1, 2014)

mwgdrwg said:


> With such a low turnout it does seem like the whole thing wasn't run properly at all.
> 
> Saying that, If I was aware of a vote about possible business rate increases then I'd make sure to vote, instead of choosing not to.


One of the traders did a local survey of 12 businesses in his street (all of whom have to pay the BID levy).

Seven had *never ever heard of the BID *until the summons arrived.

There's a lot of very angry traders out there. They're having to pay for the BID's inability to properly advertise what they're up to, and they're having to pay large sums of money for something that was voted through by a very small minority of traders.


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## happyshopper (Dec 1, 2014)

Can we assume that 580 businesses have now paid the levy?


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## editor (Dec 1, 2014)

happyshopper said:


> Can we assume that 580 businesses have now paid the levy?


Some caved in fearful of having to incur greater costs, while a number were in court last week. There may be more cases coming up.

I heard that they were _extremely _unhappy. Some feel that the tax - you know, the one that is supposed to help local businesses - may even kill off their business. 

Some are really struggling to find the money to pay for something that they don't want, that appears to offer no tangible benefits, and that they didn't vote for - and if the recent straw poll is anything to go by, the thing that many _hadn't even heard of_.


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## Rushy (Dec 1, 2014)

How much are we talking for the street traders? Even village business owners I know who are against it said it was a pretty inconsequential amount. I don't like BID but it surprises me to hear that the cost itself is enough to cripple a viable business.


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## editor (Dec 1, 2014)

Rushy said:


> How much are we talking for the street traders? Even village business owners I know who are against it said it was a pretty inconsequential amount. I don't like BID but it surprises me to hear that the cost itself is enough to cripple a viable business.


Why are you limiting this to street traders? Some non-trendy traditional shops are suffering to stay afloat too.

But you'll have to take it from me (or at least until we get another BID feature on B Buzz together, if they're prepared to go on record) that some businesses are finding it _very hard_ to pay out this kind of money. And we're talking four figure sums for something that appears to offer them nothing in return.


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## Rushy (Dec 1, 2014)

editor said:


> Why are you limiting this to street traders? Some non-trendy traditional shops are suffering to stay afloat too.
> 
> But you'll have to take it from me (or at least until we get a BID feature together, if they're prepared to go on record) that some businesses are finding it _very hard_ to find this money. And we're talking four figure sums.


Surely not? The BID is supposed to be charged at 1.5pc on top of currentbusiness rates. Four figures would equate to businesses with annual rates of 70k and more already. No?


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## editor (Dec 1, 2014)

Rushy said:


> Surely not?


If you say so.


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## editor (Dec 1, 2014)

Look at this for a depressing page.


> Brixton has undergone a large amount of regeneration over the last few years with a number of high end residential developments, notably Barrett Homes’ Brixton Square development on Coldharbour Lane. Retail in the area is also continuing to strengthen, with increasing demand from boutique and multi-national retailers looking to acquire new shop units in Brixton. As a result, the area is now a vibrant, trendy location for shopping, dining and drinking. The Premier Inn is also currently developing a new hotel at 430 Coldharbour Lane.
> http://www.rightmove.co.uk/commercial-property-to-let/property-43862818.html



And this shop on Coldharbour Lane? £70,000/annum to you, squire.



Sold!


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## DietCokeGirl (Dec 1, 2014)

BID sent out generic mail shots, addressed 'business owner', that looked very much like junk mail - the kind of stuff shops and businesses get sent TONNES of by suppliers, advertisers, insurance companies, god knows who else - very easy to overlook, especially if you haven't been following all the fuss online.


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## DietCokeGirl (Dec 1, 2014)

To be fair, that's 70K pa rent, not business rates, which is what BID 's levy is based on, I *think*. I know some traders are currently looking into the legality of the demands and if they are actually obliged to pay, or if the demand letters are just bully tactics.


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## editor (Dec 1, 2014)

DietCokeGirl said:


> BID sent out generic mail shots, addressed 'business owner', that looked very much like junk mail - the kind of stuff shops and businesses get sent TONNES of by suppliers, advertisers, insurance companies, god knows who else - very easy to overlook, especially if you haven't been following all the fuss online.


Indeed. They should have been compelled to go around to each and every business, explained exactly what they had in mind, and then got the owner to sing something to that effect.


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## editor (Dec 1, 2014)

DietCokeGirl said:


> To be fair, that's 70K pa rent, not business rates, which is what BID 's levy is based on, I *think*. I know some traders are currently looking into the legality of the demands and if they are actually obliged to pay, or if the demand letters are just bully tactics.


Se have ALREADY been taken to court and ordered to pay.


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## DietCokeGirl (Dec 1, 2014)

I reckon the lack of consultation and communication was deliberate to push through some jobs for the boys all hush-hush.


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## DietCokeGirl (Dec 1, 2014)

editor said:


> Se have ALREADY been taken to court and ordered to pay.


No way. That is awful.


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## editor (Dec 1, 2014)

DietCokeGirl said:


> To be fair, that's 70K pa rent, not business rates, which is what BID 's levy is based on, I *think*. I know some traders are currently looking into the legality of the demands and if they are actually obliged to pay, or if the demand letters are just bully tactics.


Here's how businesses are charged:


> BIDs raise money through a levy from businesses with a rateable value over a certain amount. In Brixton, this levy would be 1.5% and the rateable value £5k.
> http://www.brixtonbid.co.uk/brochure.pdf


And to answer your point: 


> *What is a rateable value?*
> Apart from those properties which are exempt from rates, each non-domestic property has a rateable value. The *rateable value broadly represents the annual rent *the property could have been let for on the open market on a particular date, on full repairing and insuring terms. For the current rating lists, this date was set as 1 April 2008.
> http://www.voa.gov.uk/corporate/Publications/businessRatesAnIntro.html


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## editor (Dec 1, 2014)

DietCokeGirl said:


> No way. That is awful.


Yep. And although I heard that the judge sympathised with their plight, their defence of not knowing about the scheme before it was voted through meant they had to pay up in full - with costs.


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## DietCokeGirl (Dec 1, 2014)

I just read back a couple of pages and the BB article, so now I'm a bit more caught up. It's really shit. I wish there was a stronger traders association or such to give a united voice on the subject. I wonder if some of the more thriving businesses can help put together a legal fund for some of the smaller ones. Thoughts to mull over.


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## Rushy (Dec 1, 2014)

editor said:


> Look at this for a depressing page.
> 
> 
> And this shop on Coldharbour Lane? £70,000/annum to you, squire.
> ...


Rent is not ratable value ffs. Christ. At least_ try _to know what you are talking about.


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## editor (Dec 1, 2014)

Rushy said:


> Rent is not ratable value ffs. Christ. At least_ try _to know what you are talking about.


I haven't actually stated that rent is rentable value, by the way.

Now, admittedly I'm not a big property owner like you, so forgive me if I'm not up with all the terminology, but this does seems to make a broad connection:


> *What is a rateable value?*
> Apart from those properties which are exempt from rates, each non-domestic property has a rateable value. The *rateable value broadly represents the annual rent *the property could have been let for on the open market on a particular date, on full repairing and insuring terms. For the current rating lists, this date was set as 1 April 2008.
> http://www.voa.gov.uk/corporate/Publications/businessRatesAnIntro.html


Perhaps you could explain the differences?


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## Rushy (Dec 2, 2014)

editor said:


> I haven't actually stated that rent is rentable value, by the way.
> 
> Now, admittedly I'm not a big property owner like you, so forgive me if I'm not up with all the terminology, but this does seems to make a broad connection:
> 
> Perhaps you could explain the differences?



To give you an idea, Foxtons rent is about £200-250K pa. According to the VOA their ratable value is £63,000p.a. Their rates are worked out on a roughly about 47% of rateable value - that means they pay £29,000 rates per annum. The BID levy is 1.5% of rateable value - so that is £945 to BID. Even a company the size of Foxtons is not paying 4 figures to BID.


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## editor (Dec 2, 2014)

Rushy said:


> To give you an idea, Foxtons rent is about £200-250K pa. According to the VOA their ratable value is £63,000p.a. Their rates are worked out on a roughly about 47% of rateable value - that means they pay £29,000 rates per annum. The BID levy is 1.5% of rateable value - so that is £945 to BID. Even a company the size of Foxtons is not paying 4 figures to BID.


Edit: thanks for the explanation.

Whatever the figure it certainly seems to be far more than some businesses can afford - especially when it's for something that appears to offer them no tangible benefits.

My confusion about the numbers also seems to be echoed amongst some of the people who are being compelled to pay up.

Personally, I think they should scrap the whole thing and start again, and this time ensure they get a meaningful mandate from a true majority of traders.


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## Rushy (Dec 2, 2014)

Looking at parts of Market Row, a number are exempt from the BID levy (under £5,000 rateable value) and the rest would pay between £6 and £22pcm, typically about £10 per month. (Nour is a notable exception at £45pcm, but it is about 4-5 times larger than the next largest units). This £10 levy is on top of business rates of about £390pcm and rents of about £1,000+ pcm. To be blunt, any business threatened by that amount of levy on top of existing costs is probably not long for this world anyway.

I’m not convinced by the argument that it is too complicated to understand. Anyone running a business should be aware of their rateable value – they pay their rates every month already – and it is simply a small percentage on top of that.

Regarding a re-vote, it is worth noting that their pre vote gumph read:


> _BIDs have had huge success across the country, in London and in Lambeth itself, where three successful BIDs exist to date – Waterloo Quarter, Vauxhall One and in Streatham. *Based on their success, all BIDs who have completed a first term have been voted in for a second.*_


This appears to suggest that there will be a second vote. Anyone know?

Now I’m not sure about this – someone correct me if I’m wrong – but I think their representation system is “one business one vote” so the smaller businesses should in theory be very well represented by the BID. If they want to they could be quite powerful in directing it.

The recent performance of one time key figures – such as incoherent ranting on here about the racism of the council towards black owned businesses; and attempts by another to obstruct an investigation into a gun attack in their venue – did not instil confidence in me – but I’m not sure what their involvement is now. There seem to be some pretty competent people on the board.

Without seeing some specifics, I don’t think there is much evidence that the levy itself could cause financial hardship to any business. BID is in now, so they need to pull out all the stops to show that they can be truly representative, inclusive and effective. That is what they should be judged on.


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## editor (Dec 2, 2014)

Rushy said:


> Without seeing some specifics, I don’t think there is much evidence that the levy itself could cause financial hardship to any business.


Of course it bloody might if your business is struggling. Even £100 will hurt when you're already being hit by soaring rents.

And unbelievably though it seems for you to accept, some local businesses are struggling to understand what the BID is about and what benefits it will bring. I know this because I've talked to several. In fact, a few have asked me to explain it to them.


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## ricbake (Dec 2, 2014)

The Valuation Office Agency will give the rateable value of any business premises just enter the post code
Take the rateable value and use the multiplier 
*2013/2014* Standard - 47.1p Small Business -46.2p
to calculate the actual amount in rates

So Morleys Brixton Road rateable value £202,000 pay £95.142 in Business rates

BID contribution = £1427

"Brixton BID will be funded by an annual levy of 1.5% of the rateable
value of all eligible businesses (with a rateable value of £5,000 or over)."


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## Rushy (Dec 2, 2014)

editor said:


> Of course it bloody might if your business is struggling. Even £100 will hurt when you're already being hit by soaring rents.
> 
> And unbelievably though it seems for you to accept, some local businesses are struggling to understand what the BID is about and what benefits it will bring. I know this because I've talked to several. In fact, a few have asked me to explain it to them.


As I said, £10 per month on top of rates and rent of £1,400 per month, not to mention utilities and other business costs, is not going to cause hardship. If the business is struggling it will not be as a result of the BID levy. Soaring rents - yes. High rates -yes. Increasing utilities - yes. The BID levy, controversial and unpopular as it might be, is insignificant compared to these other fixed business costs. No business will go over the edge as a result of it.


----------



## editor (Dec 2, 2014)

Rushy said:


> As I said, £10 per month on top of rates and rent of £1,400 per month, not to mention utilities and other business costs, is not going to cause hardship. If the business is struggling it will not be as a result of the BID levy. Soaring rents - yes. High rates -yes. Increasing utilities - yes. The BID levy, controversial and unpopular as it might be, is insignificant compared to these other fixed business costs. No business will go over the edge as a result of it.


You _really_ have no idea about how some people struggle, do you?

£10/month for a service you don't even want (and quite possibly does nothing for you) may be just loose change and 'insignificant' to someone as well off as you, but to others it can be a hard sum to find on top of everything else - even more so if they've been compelled to pay court costs.


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## ricbake (Dec 2, 2014)

Sorry Rushy kind of repeated all you have done - didn't check the thread properly this morning...

A Small business with a Rateble Value of £5001 would pay £23.10 per year to BID


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## Rushy (Dec 2, 2014)

editor said:


> You _really_ have no idea about how some people struggle, do you?
> 
> £10/month for a service you don't even want (and quite possibly does nothing for you) may be just loose change and 'insignificant' to someone as well off as you, but to others it can be a hard sum to find on top of everything else - even more so if they've been compelled to pay court costs.



I look forward to your break down and analysis of the figures of your case in point. Doubtless mixed in with a few more personal digs for good measure.


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## editor (Dec 2, 2014)

Rushy said:


> I look forward to your break down and analysis of the figures of your case in point. Doubtless mixed in with a few more personal digs for good measure.


It's nothing to do with personal digs - it's about your inability to recognise that some people will struggle to find monthly sums of money that you dismiss out of hand as 'insignificant'.


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## ricbake (Dec 2, 2014)

I personally voted against the BID levy as I believe Business Improvement is something that should be part of the core duty of the Council and therefore paid for out of the Business Rates that they already charge - but 1.5% increase in the business rates is not a large amount in the great scheme of things...
But only of it is put to good use!


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## editor (Dec 2, 2014)

ricbake said:


> But only of it is put to good use!


Anyone got any ideas on what they will be doing with all that dosh (after they've paid their exec up to £65k/year)?


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## ricbake (Dec 2, 2014)

BID Website  made by people in Piano House so money is being spent in Brixton

"Current BID services include:

Lower cost waste collection and free cardboard recycling
Free training for employees in Health and Safety; Food Hygiene; Customer Service; First Aid; Maths & English
BID members can advertise for free in the BID section of Brixton Bugle, with discounted rates for additional advertising
Should you wish to request a meeting with one of the BID board or team please contact us on admin@brixtonbid.co.uk.
The Brixton BID has been established to work with all local businesses to improve trading conditions and provide a voice for Brixton businesses.
Since becoming a BID, we have begun to deliver on our promise to provide services that benefit Brixton businesses and the area as a whole. We'd love to have your input and will be running meetings for businesses to have an impact on how money is spent.

Our new website is on its way in autumn 2014" (Late)

Free training is worth a lot to small businesses - tell people to get their moneys worth!


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## Rushy (Dec 2, 2014)

editor said:


> It's nothing to do with personal digs - it's about your inability to recognise that some people will struggle to find monthly sums of money that you dismiss out of hand as 'insignificant'.



I recognise that some businesses are struggling. I am saying that they are not struggling _because_ of the BID levy, which is a tiny proportion of fixed costs. Perhaps if you would post some actual details everyone could make up their own minds about whether your example is an exception which proves me wrong.


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## editor (Dec 2, 2014)

Oh, they can advertise for free in the Brixton Bugle. Well, that's money well spent then. But why not not the Lambeth Weekender given its far wider circulation?


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## ricbake (Dec 2, 2014)

According to VOA details Kaff Bar has appealed the rateable value twice in the last 3 years but not got anywhere, the first time using an agent.
I calculate Kaff's maximum BID levy to be £2.25 per week - did Steve vote No last November...


----------



## editor (Dec 2, 2014)

ricbake said:


> According to VOA details Kaff Bar has appealed the rateable value twice in the last 3 years but not got anywhere, the first time using an agent.
> I calculate Kaff's maximum BID levy to be £2.25 per week - did Steve vote No last November...


What do you think?

Lambeth Council issues court summons to 141 Brixton businesses for non-payment of Brixton BID


----------



## ricbake (Dec 2, 2014)

editor said:


> What do you think?


Just re read it and can't see if he exercised his democratic rights - I wish more people had, like I said earlier I voted no!


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## elmpp (Dec 2, 2014)

editor said:


> Edit: thanks for the explanation.
> 
> Whatever the figure it certainly seems to be far more than some businesses can afford - especially when it's for something that appears to offer them no tangible benefits.
> 
> ...


----------



## DietCokeGirl (Dec 3, 2014)

So far then it seems they've got funding for (not paid for) the planters on station road, and created the Brixton Flavours food festival which I get the impression was not exactly viewed as a success.....


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## Pickman's model (Dec 3, 2014)

ricbake said:


> Just re read it and can't see if he exercised his democratic rights - I wish more people had, like I said earlier I voted no!


oh dear. oh dear. i think you'll find he DID exercise his democratic right, in electing not to vote. if you have the right to vote, you also have the right not to.


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## ricbake (Dec 3, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> oh dear. oh dear. i think you'll find he DID exercise his democratic right, in electing not to vote. if you have the right to vote, you also have the right not to.



Along with 494 others who "abstained" 

So 183 voted yes - 44 voted no - 141 haven't paid - be interested to know how many no voters are among those being summonsed.

May be democracy would have worked better if they sent out the bills with the ballot papers


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## Pickman's model (Dec 3, 2014)

ricbake said:


> Along with 494 others who "abstained"
> 
> So 183 voted yes - 44 voted no - 141 haven't paid - be interested to know how many no voters are among those being summonsed.
> 
> May be democracy would have worked better if they sent out the bills with the ballot papers


but we don't live in a democracy.


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## ricbake (Dec 3, 2014)

It only feels like an Oligarchy if you choose not to get involved in the process


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## Pickman's model (Dec 3, 2014)

ricbake said:


> It only feels like an Oligarchy if you choose not to get involved in the process


it feels like an oligarchy if you do get involved in the process.


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## editor (Dec 3, 2014)

ricbake said:


> Along with 494 others who "abstained"
> 
> So 183 voted yes - 44 voted no - 141 haven't paid - be interested to know how many no voters are among those being summonsed.
> 
> May be democracy would have worked better if they sent out the bills with the ballot papers


I'd be more interested to learn how many of the 494 actually knew that the thing was going ahead - judging by the straw poll taken by in trader, it would seem that it might be quick a few.

I've heard some say that they thought the BID forms that were sent out were circulars and just binned them with all the other junk mail.


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## ricbake (Dec 3, 2014)

They looked a bit like planning notifications - but reading the incoming mail is a quite basic and fairly essential aspect of running a business.


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## editor (Dec 3, 2014)

ricbake said:


> They looked a bit like planning notifications - but reading the incoming mail is a quite basic and fairly essential aspect of running a business.


Come on - you can't blame the shopkeepers for not paying enough attention to something they've never heard of. And even if they read it, perhaps it wasn't worded very clearly. 

The BID should have gone around and explained what they're doing to each business. Compelling hard-up businesses to give them money on a tiny vote is outrageous.


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## Dan U (Dec 3, 2014)

Of course you can blame them, it's their job. 

I run my own business and I read every single thing that is addressed to it just in case it's something from the revenue etc that I might miss. 

What a ridiculous argument


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## editor (Dec 3, 2014)

Dan U said:


> Of course you can blame them, it's their job.
> 
> I run my own business and I read every single thing that is addressed to it just in case it's something from the revenue etc that I might miss.
> 
> What a ridiculous argument


Good that you've got the time.


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## Dan U (Dec 3, 2014)

editor said:


> Good that you've got the time.


I don't. I make the time, it is in my interests. 

It's been demonstrated this can be as little as the price of a cup of coffee per week for some businesses. The idea that is going to send someone to the wall is a bit much. 

The scandal here is the resorting to the court system to settle this.


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## ricbake (Dec 3, 2014)

They weren't trying to be sneaky, establishing it without anyone realising what they were doing... 
http://brixtonbid.co.uk/Brixton-BID-Development-Consultation.pdf


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## CH1 (Dec 3, 2014)

ricbake said:


> They weren't trying to be sneaky, establishing it without anyone realising what they were doing...
> http://brixtonbid.co.uk/Brixton-BID-Development-Consultation.pdf


The cost is hardly displayed prominently in that document is it?
And given many people's "I can't change a light-bulb" attitude to mental arithmetic these days I doubt anyone actually worked out what 1.5% of the business rate bill would be!


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## Dan U (Dec 3, 2014)

CH1 said:


> The cost is hardly displayed prominently in that document is it?
> And given many people's "I can't change a light-bulb" attitude to mental arithmetic these days I doubt anyone actually worked out what 1.5% of the business rate bill would be!



They are running a business ffs. 

You can't have that attitude to arithmetic, mental or otherwise. 

Oh sorry HMRC I am shit at maths my Vat bill is wrong.


----------



## editor (Dec 3, 2014)

Dan U said:


> They are running a business ffs.
> 
> You can't have that attitude to arithmetic, mental or otherwise.
> 
> Oh sorry HMRC I am shit at maths my Vat bill is wrong.


So you haven't a problem with the BID being voted through on a minority of businesses, or the fact that many businesses say they never even knew abut the BID. 

Did they follow up and check with businesses that they'd actually received the letter?


----------



## editor (Dec 3, 2014)

ricbake said:


> They weren't trying to be sneaky, establishing it without anyone realising what they were doing...
> http://brixtonbid.co.uk/Brixton-BID-Development-Consultation.pdf


You think that slab of small text clearly explains what the BID is about and makes it REALLY obvious that all businesses will be _compelled_ to stump up cash whether they have an interest not?  It just looks like a survey to me.


----------



## Dan U (Dec 3, 2014)

editor said:


> So you haven't a problem with the BID being voted through on a minority of businesses, or the fact that many businesses say they never even knew abut the BID.
> 
> Did they follow up and check with businesses that they'd actually received the letter?


I have no view either way on the BID without doing some more reading. This thread has views on both sides of the argument re it's validity, purpose etc 

I take issue with the fact you think business owners are too stupid to read their own mail 

This idea that every change that impacts on a business must be accompanied by a cosy 1:1 is as laughable as it is insulting. Should the VAT man come and sit down with me everytime I have to do a return? 

Based upon the calculations clearly shown in this thread you have also gone somewhat OTT on its financial impact, court costs etc aside.


----------



## Dan U (Dec 3, 2014)

ricbake said:


> According to VOA details Kaff Bar has appealed the rateable value twice in the last 3 years but not got anywhere, the first time using an agent.
> I calculate Kaff's maximum BID levy to be £2.25 per week - did Steve vote No last November...


For context. 

One of your hobby horse businesses. That's the price of a coffee per week

If a business can't work out a way to recover that, even whilst working to extricate themselves from the BID with other business owners, well come on.


----------



## editor (Dec 3, 2014)

Dan U said:


> I take issue with the fact you think business owners are too stupid to read their own mail.


At no point did I make such a claim. Kindly do not post up silly fibs. Thanks.


----------



## editor (Dec 3, 2014)

Dan U said:


> If a business can't work out a way to recover that, even whilst working to extricate themselves from the BID with other business owners, well come on.


Yeah, fuck 'em.


----------



## Dan U (Dec 3, 2014)

editor said:


> At no point did I make such a claim. Kindly do not post up silly fibs. Thanks.


It's your implication. They didn't read the letters, no one came and personally  held their hand and told them what was happening


----------



## Dan U (Dec 3, 2014)

editor said:


> Yeah, fuck 'em.


No one is getting fucked for 2.25 a week, despite what you think.


----------



## DietCokeGirl (Dec 3, 2014)

Dan U said:


> I take issue with the fact you think business owners are too stupid to read their own mail



Truth is, a lot of traders say they hadn't heard about BID until they started getting summons letters. I can see how that letter would have been discarded, there's nothing to imply it's any more consequential than the usual fluff Lambeth send out. It hardly looks like an official and legally binding piece of documentation. I can see how people would think nothing more would come of it if they just ignored it, given there's not enough hours in the day as it is.


----------



## editor (Dec 3, 2014)

Dan U said:


> No one is getting fucked for 2.25 a week, despite what you think.


Love the way you're just rolling with this all-purpose figure without actually knowing its true. But even if we go with this low figure, it's still well over £100 thrown away every year for something that some traders say _provides no benefits at all_. Do you think they can all afford to throw away that kind of money for nothing, then?


----------



## editor (Dec 3, 2014)

DietCokeGirl said:


> Truth is, a lot of traders say they hadn't heard about BID until they started getting summons letters. I can see how that letter would have been discarded, there's nothing to imply it's any more consequential than the usual fluff Lambeth send out. It hardly looks like an official and legally binding piece of documentation. I can see how people would think nothing more would come of it if they just ignored it, given there's not enough hours in the day as it is.


Exactly. And some of those people are fucking furious about the way it was handled.


----------



## Rushy (Dec 3, 2014)

editor said:


> Love the way you're just rolling with this all-purpose figure without actually knowing its true. But even if we go with this low figure, it's still well over £100 thrown away every year for something that some traders say _provides no benefits at all_. Do you think they can all afford to throw away that kind of money for nothing, then?


What are you saying is questionable about the cost? The VOA record of Kaff's rateable value or Ric's ability to multiply it by 1.5pc?


----------



## Dan U (Dec 3, 2014)

DietCokeGirl said:


> Truth is, a lot of traders say they hadn't heard about BID until they started getting summons letters. I can see how that letter would have been discarded, there's nothing to imply it's any more consequential than the usual fluff Lambeth send out. It hardly looks like an official and legally binding piece of documentation. I can see how people would think nothing more would come of it if they just ignored it, given there's not enough hours in the day as it is.


Ok but to be honest you should read every bloody thing you are sent just in case it is something like this 

I am sure they will in the future.


----------



## DietCokeGirl (Dec 3, 2014)

An official letter in with the business rates invoice would surely have set a more appropriate tone for the introduction of something that is going to have legal consequences for your business. And even if people do feel the cost is small and easily absorbed, to suddenly be hit with an unexpected bill is never easy or pleasant for anyone, let alone a Capita demand letter which could affect your businesses credit. And for what? Rubbish removal that was covered by service charges and business rates anyway, an unpopular food festival (as if the food businesses need anymore promotion) and some flower beds that the traders association could have installed themselves if they were desperately needed. I've never heard about or sent information about the training that's supposedly on offer, no dates, venues, details of courses or how to sign up. I've emailed to request details because I doubt it actually exists.


----------



## editor (Dec 3, 2014)

I


Rushy said:


> What are you saying is questionable about the cost? The VOA record of the rateable value or Ric's ability to multiply it by 1.5pc?


I'd rather get the figure directly from the owner, but that's not the point anyway. 

Do you think businesses should just put up with having to throw over a £100/year at the BID for no good reason, even when they argue that they knew nothing about it? 

And do you concede that some businesses might struggle to find £100 on top of their other business costs for something they don't want/need?


----------



## Dan U (Dec 3, 2014)

editor said:


> Love the way you're just rolling with this all-purpose figure without actually knowing its true. But even if we go with this low figure, it's still well over £100 thrown away every year for something that some traders say _provides no benefits at all_. Do you think they can all afford to throw away that kind of money for nothing, then?


It was backed up with a fairly solid foundation tbf

But yeah if a business is turning over a grand a week it's 0.25pc of turnover

That is manageable until a way out is dealt with, which is hopefully what all these businesses are in the process of doing.


----------



## editor (Dec 3, 2014)

DietCokeGirl said:


> . I've never heard about or sent information about the training that's supposedly on offer, no dates, venues, details of courses or how to sign up. I've emailed to request details because I doubt it actually exists.


That's what I've heard from others too.


----------



## editor (Dec 3, 2014)

Dan U said:


> But yeah if a business is turning over a grand a week it's 0.25pc of turnover


Oh, that's a nice  random figure!


----------



## ricbake (Dec 3, 2014)

There were plenty of places to find out more about it
Link
Brochure


----------



## Rushy (Dec 3, 2014)

editor said:


> I
> I'd rather get the figure directly from the owner, but that's not the point anyway.
> 
> Do you think businesses should just put up with having to throw over a £100/year at the BID for no good reason, even when they argue that they knew nothing about it?
> ...


£100 per year. For a business with a premises the size of Kaff. No.

I can understand being bothered by the principle of it. But if a business that size can't cover £2 a week it is simply not viable.


----------



## editor (Dec 3, 2014)

ricbake said:


> There were plenty of places to find out more about it
> Link
> Brochure


Oh come on.  A PDF (unreadable on some phones/machines) and a 200 post thread here hardly represents the pinnacle of accessibility.


----------



## editor (Dec 3, 2014)

Rushy said:


> £100 per year. For a business with a premises the size of Kaff. No.
> 
> I can understand being bothered by the principle of it. But if a business that size can't cover £2 a week it is simply not viable.


They might last a bit longer if they didn't have to hand over £100+/year for something they don't want/need.

I know you can't see it from your comfortable position, but some businesses and people really do struggle on the breadline, and a £100 can make a big difference.


----------



## ricbake (Dec 3, 2014)

Rushy said:


> What are you saying is questionable about the cost? The VOA record of Kaff's rateable value or Ric's ability to multiply it by 1.5pc?



Rateable Value X Multiplier for small business X 1.5%


----------



## Dan U (Dec 3, 2014)

editor said:


> Oh, that's a nice  random figure!


It's not random. I've stated my working. 

Feel free to disagree with it


----------



## Dan U (Dec 3, 2014)

editor said:


> They might last a bit longer if they didn't have to hand over £100+/year for something they don't want/need.
> 
> I know you can't see it from your comfortable position, but some businesses and people really do struggle on the breadline, and a £100 can make a big difference.


For a business, divided by 52 weeks? 

That is what you are seriously arguing? 

If they want out I hope they all get out but your position isn't credible, sorry. 

This isn't people struggling on defined benefits we are talking about here, this is business owners who can impact what they do and how they do it.


----------



## Dan U (Dec 3, 2014)

Anyway made my point, I'm out.


----------



## editor (Dec 3, 2014)

Oh and just to clear something up. 

I know it always seems cheaper when you cite a tax as a weekly thing, but it's not a weekly charge is it? 
Doesn't it come in one big fat yearly/bi-yearly bill? The sort of unexpected lump sum that can be hard to find in hard times?


----------



## ricbake (Dec 3, 2014)

editor said:


> They might last a bit longer if they didn't have to hand over £100+/year for something they don't want/need.
> 
> I know you can't see it from your comfortable position, but some businesses and people really do struggle on the breadline, and a £100 can make a big difference.


If they send some of their staff for some free training they will get their moneys worth


ricbake said:


> Free training for employees in Health and Safety; Food Hygiene; Customer Service; First Aid; Maths & English


----------



## editor (Dec 3, 2014)

ricbake said:


> If they send some of their staff for some free training they will get their moneys worth


Did you miss this post?


DietCokeGirl said:


> I've never heard about or sent information about the training that's supposedly on offer, no dates, venues, details of courses or how to sign up. I've emailed to request details because I doubt it actually exists.


----------



## Rushy (Dec 3, 2014)

editor said:


> I know you can't see it from your comfortable position, but some businesses and people really do struggle on the breadline, and a £100 can make a big difference.


The expert on small businesses founders on the facts and decides to take a personal angle again. Tedious.


----------



## editor (Dec 3, 2014)

Rushy said:


> The expert on small businesses founders on the facts and decides to take a personal angle again. Tedious.


So no small businesses ever struggle to find the money to pay a £100+ bill? Get out of your bubble.


----------



## ricbake (Dec 3, 2014)

If there is a problem with what the BID is doing or not doing talk to the people involved in setting it up and yes it does include Macdonalds and Tesco along with many local small business people!

Chair:
Elly Foster, Director, Satay Bar
Vice Chair:
Devon Thomas, Executive
Director, Lambeth Enterprise
Vice Chair/ Director:
Paul Bassey, Director,
Veranda Restaurant
Calvin Rattray, Director,
Hype Coiffure
Enza Schifano, Director,
San Marino
Jackie Meldrum, Deputy Leader
of the Council, Lambeth Council
Grant Winters, Director,
El Panzon @ La Cabaña
Hammant Patel Villa, Director,
The Courtesan
Jeremy Keates, Town Centre
Manager, Lambeth Council
Jeanette Pritchard, Director,
JPCreative
Laverne Walker, Director,
Sackville Travel
Mark Silverman, Principal
and Chief Executive,
Lambeth College
Mellissa Morgan, Director,
Ms. Cupcake
Michael Smith, Director,
Smith-Scafeand Associates
LTD, London (Consumer/
Resident board member)
Ord Henry, Co-owner,
Market House
Stacey Raymond, General
Manager, Morleys
Steven Boswell, Inspector,
Brixton Police Station,
Stuart Horwood, CEO, Brixton
Market Federation
Terence Eagle, Managing
Director, Manor Restaurants
T/A McDonalds UK
Enzo Antinoro, General
Manager, Tesco
Nigel Downs, General Manager,
O2 Academy Brixton


----------



## editor (Dec 3, 2014)

ricbake said:


> If there is a problem with what the BID is doing or not doing talk to the people involved in setting it up and yes it does include Macdonalds and Tesco along with many local small business people!
> 
> Chair:
> Elly Foster, Director, Satay Bar
> ...


One of the BID's directors has had his own business shut down for over a year because of a shooting on his premises. Not the greatest advert, perhaps.


----------



## ricbake (Dec 3, 2014)

editor said:


> One of the BID's directors has had his own business shut down for over a year because of a shooting on his premises. Not the greatest advert, perhaps.


I am not an apologist for the Brixton BID or anyone involved with it - I voted NO because I didn't want it - now its there I will make what use I can of it because my company is contributing to its cost - and yes I don't have any choice about that - and yes I will make a noise about it if I think they are taking the piss - but they did go through an open process in setting it up.


----------



## editor (Dec 3, 2014)

ricbake said:


> I am not an apologist for the Brixton BID or anyone involved with it - I voted NO because I didn't want it - now its there I will make what use I can of it because my company is contributing to its cost - and yes I don't have any choice about that - and yes I will make a noise about it if I think they are taking the piss - but they did go through an open process in setting it up.


But you accept that - through no fault of their own - some businesses weren't sufficiently consulted (if at all)?

Do you agree with what I said yesterday, "Personally, I think they should scrap the whole thing and start again, and this time ensure they get a meaningful mandate from a true majority of traders."


----------



## ricbake (Dec 3, 2014)

People really do need to pay some attention to what is going on - The BID went through a two stage consultation process over a year before there was a postal vote in which about a third of those eligible (who will have received a vote form at the address their business rates bill is sent) bothered to respond. Of those who responded about 80% were in favour. We now have it for 5 years unless they turn out to be criminal or completely incompetent.


----------



## ricbake (Dec 3, 2014)

A 40% discount on waste collection from these people http://www.thefirstmile.co.uk/services/ 
And training at Lambeth College for employees 
plus an ad in the BBugle.... 
it is possible for a business the size of Kaff Bar to get their £100 worth


----------



## editor (Dec 3, 2014)

ricbake said:


> People really do need to pay some attention to what is going on - The BID went through a two stage consultation process over a year before there was a postal vote in which about a third of those eligible (who will have received a vote form at the address their business rates bill is sent) bothered to respond. Of those who responded about 80% were in favour. We now have it for 5 years unless they turn out to be criminal or completely incompetent.


I don't think it's fair to keep blaming people for not knowing something that wasn't adequately promoted/advertised. As I said earlier, a straw poll by one trader found that 7 out of 12 businesses knew nothing about it before the bills came in. Why is that their fault?


ricbake said:


> A 40% discount on waste collection from these people http://www.thefirstmile.co.uk/services/
> And training at Lambeth College for employees
> plus an ad in the BBugle....
> it is possible for a business the size of Kaff Bar to get their £100 worth


Have you gone out and spoken to traders to see if they _actually want any of that stuff?_

Or if it actually being delivered anyway?

Oh, and again: Do you agree with what I said yesterday, "Personally, I think they should scrap the whole thing and start again, and this time ensure they get a meaningful mandate from a true majority of traders."


----------



## ricbake (Dec 3, 2014)

Hopefully through the letters of complaint that those objecting to this "imposition" will write and via the Brixton Buzz article, the Brixton BID people will respond for themselves, they might even respond here


----------



## Rushy (Dec 3, 2014)

editor said:


> So no small businesses ever struggle to find the money to pay a £100+ bill? Get out of your bubble.


 Of course they did. If they were a business which was already insolvent or on the brink of it. Or of such a minute turnover that 100 a year would make any difference. But then such a small business would not reasonably have a premises with a rateable value of 5k+ and consequently would would be exempt from BID levy. I doubt you have any examples of a business based in a premises with a rateable value of 7k struggling_ because _of a bill for £100/yr. If you do, please feel free to illustrate your argument with some details.


----------



## editor (Dec 3, 2014)

Rushy said:


> Of course they did. If they were a business which was already insolvent or on the brink of it.


Great. It's sinking in. Some businesses are indeed on the brink and that final £100+ bill - plus the extra court costs if they can't immediately pay it - could well be the thing that tips them over the edge. And for what?


----------



## ricbake (Dec 3, 2014)

Any business struggling that badly needs some help - perhaps they could go and talk to a group set up specifically to help small local businesses - I wonder if there is such a group?


----------



## Rushy (Dec 3, 2014)

editor said:


> Great. It's sinking in.


It really does not look like it from where I'm standing.


----------



## editor (Dec 3, 2014)

ricbake said:


> Any business struggling that badly needs some help - perhaps they could go and talk to a group set up specifically to help small local businesses - I wonder if there is such a group?


I don't imagine that would be a group who start off by issuing over 140 court summons to the very businesses it's supposed to be helping.


----------



## CH1 (Dec 4, 2014)

Dan U said:


> They are running a business ffs.
> You can't have that attitude to arithmetic, mental or otherwise.
> Oh sorry HMRC I am shit at maths my Vat bill is wrong.


The HMRC had that attitude to 2 million "customers" about their 2007/8/9 PAYE tax, and some are still having to pay back tax from that period.

I think HMRC is a bad example - if I might be so bold.


----------



## CH1 (Dec 4, 2014)

CH1 said:


> The HMRC had that attitude to 2 million "customers" about their 2007/8/9 PAYE tax, and some are still having to pay back tax from that period.
> I think HMRC is a bad example - if I might be so bold.


Actually thinking about it - it is exactly the same situation.
Lambeth Council assumed everyone checks their leaflets with a fine toothcomb.
HMRC assumes 2 million people with part-time jobs know what a tax code means.

Dan U - you must be a Tax Accountant!


----------



## leanderman (Dec 4, 2014)

CH1 said:


> Actually thinking about it - it is exactly the same situation.
> Lambeth Council assumed everyone checks their leaflets with a fine toothcomb.
> HMRC assumes 2 million people with part-time jobs know what a tax code means.
> 
> Dan U - you must be a Tax Accountant!



Making exceptions to the idea of a strict liability is unwise.


----------



## CH1 (Dec 4, 2014)

leanderman said:


> Making exceptions to the idea of a strict liability is unwise.


I don't disagree, but if Lambeth were bending over backwards to help people understand they would have a section:
"How much is it going to cost me?"	[Enter your rateable value here] x 1.5/100   = THIS IS IT MATE

Or no?


----------



## leanderman (Dec 4, 2014)

CH1 said:


> I don't disagree, but if Lambeth were bending over backwards to help people understand they would have a section:
> "How much is it going to cost me?"	[Enter your rateable value here] x 1.5/100   = THIS IS IT MATE
> 
> Or no?



Probably. But, without judging this case, some times people have to take responsibility, get involved.


----------



## editor (Dec 4, 2014)

leanderman said:


> Probably. But, without judging this case, some times people have to take responsibility, get involved.


Sure, but you can get only involved if (a) know about it and (b) have it explained to you properly.

Most people I talk to really have no idea what the BID is. In fact, most have never even heard of it, let alone know what it's supposed to do.


----------



## leanderman (Dec 4, 2014)

editor said:


> Sure, but you can get only involved if (a) know about it and (b) have it explained to you properly.
> 
> Most people I talk to really have no idea what the BID is. In fact, most have never even heard of it, let alone know what it's supposed to do.



Efforts in this street - whether by email, Twitter, posters, lampposts, door knocks, importuning, feigning death - to get people involved in anything suggest the sheer difficulties


----------



## editor (Dec 4, 2014)

leanderman said:


> Efforts in this street - whether by email, Twitter, posters, lampposts, door knocks, importuning, feigning death - to get people involved in anything suggest the sheer difficulties


Sure it's not easy, but if they afford to splash out up to £65k for a Exec Director and spend £24k pursuing legal action against local traders, I'm sure they could have made a bit more effort with making sure they distributed appropriately targeted  publicity.

I don't find their current website particularly user friendly, neither do I understand what that weird Brixton in a City Car video has to do with the BID.


----------



## leanderman (Dec 4, 2014)

editor said:


> Sure it's not easy, but if they afford to splash out up to £65k for a Exec Director and spend £24k pursuing legal action against local traders, I'm sure they could have made a bit more effort with making sure they distributed appropriately targeted  publicity.
> 
> I don't find their current website particularly user friendly, neither do I understand what that weird Brixton in a City Car video has to do with the BID.



A better example: 

An Atlantic rd trader, who lives on Leander rd, told me he was sometimes the only person attending traders' meetings. 

And said how depressing/embarrassing it was to be alone, trying to persuade the Lambeth officials in attendance to do this, that or the other.

He's now joined the BID people, according to the list #Ricbake posted.


----------



## Tricky Skills (Dec 4, 2014)

ricbake said:


> plus an ad in the BBugle...



Who is this designed to help? The local business? The Bugle? Probably both.

It also means that you probably won't be reading stories in the BBugle about how Lambeth Council is taking out court summons on 141 locals businesses at a cost of almost £24k.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 4, 2014)

ricbake said:


> If they send some of their staff for some free training they will get their moneys worth


it isn't free training if you have to pay for it


----------



## Rushy (Dec 4, 2014)

CH1 said:


> Actually thinking about it - it is exactly the same situation.
> Lambeth Council assumed everyone checks their leaflets with a fine toothcomb.
> HMRC assumes 2 million people with part-time jobs know what a tax code means.
> 
> Dan U - you must be a Tax Accountant!




The key difference with your example is that the business owner is not expected to work it out for themselves - they are sent a bill telling them exactly how much to pay.

In order that they may anticipate how much the bill will be, how much clearer would you have made it than this?



> Brixton BID will be funded by an annual levy of 1.5% of the rateable
> value of all eligible businesses (with a rateable value of £5,000 or over).
> If the rateable value on your business is:
> • £5,000 your levy will be £75 p/a
> ...


----------



## Rushy (Dec 4, 2014)

ricbake said:


> Rateable Value X Multiplier for small business X 1.5%


I am pretty sure that it is an even simpler calculation than that. It is based on the rateable value before the small business multiplier is applied. It is simply rateable value x 1.5%.


----------



## ricbake (Dec 4, 2014)

Rushy said:


> I am pretty sure that it is an even simpler calculation than that. It is based on the rateable value before the small business multiplier is applied. It is simply rateable value x 1.5%.



I may be wrong then but if this is the case the amount of the BID levy would be just over double my earlier calculation.


----------



## Rushy (Dec 4, 2014)

ricbake said:


> I may be wrong then but if this is the case the amount of the BID levy would be just over double my earlier calculation.


It is calculated in the same way as the rates. Whereas rates are 47%ish of rateable value the BID is 1.5%. With a rateable value of 10K rates are £4,700 a year; BID levy is £150.

Kaff's rateable value is £16,000 making their BID levy about £20 a month: that's 3 of their lovely engineer cocktails.

It is worth noting that they have a 200sqm triple unit. The three single units next to it all fall below the threshold and pay nothing.


----------



## CH1 (Dec 4, 2014)

Rushy said:


> The key difference with your example is that the business owner is not expected to work it out for themselves - they are sent a bill telling them exactly how much to pay.
> 
> In order that they may anticipate how much the bill will be, how much clearer would you have made it than this?


The table you quote is commendably clear. But not in the consultation document alluded to earlier [http://brixtonbid.co.uk/Brixton-BID-Development-Consultation.pdf]

So where is it then?

BTW my Inland Revenue example really did happen to millions of people - people who expected their employers to deduct the correct amount of tax - not people doing self assessments. And they all had to pay up - no ifs no buts apparently!


----------



## editor (Dec 4, 2014)

Rushy said:


> An Atlantic rd trader, who lives on Leander rd, told me he was sometimes the only person attending traders' meetings.
> 
> And said how depressing/embarrassing it was to be alone, trying to persuade the Lambeth officials in attendance to do this, that or the other.
> 
> He's now joined the BID people, according to the list #Ricbake posted.


And what difference has that made?  I talk to a lot of businesses and traders and I've yet to hear one tell me how the BID has improved things for them.


----------



## Rushy (Dec 4, 2014)

editor said:


> And what difference has that made?  I talk to a lot of businesses and traders and I've yet to hear one tell me how the BID has improved things for them.


Erm - some truly impressive misquoting going on there Ed. I didn't say any of that.


----------



## editor (Dec 4, 2014)

Rushy said:


> Erm - some truly impressive misquoting going on there Ed. I didn't say any of that.


Wake up. I asked you a question (which, as usual, you're ignoring) and haven't "misquoted" anything.


----------



## Rushy (Dec 4, 2014)

CH1 said:


> The table you quote is commendably clear. But not in the consultation document alluded to earlier [http://brixtonbid.co.uk/Brixton-BID-Development-Consultation.pdf]
> 
> So where is it then?



The document you are linking to is a survey or questionnaire intended to get the business owners feedback about the proposal. A 24 page brochure setting out how BID works was also distributed.

Www.brixton.co.UK/brochure.pdf


----------



## editor (Dec 4, 2014)

Rushy said:


> The document you are linking to is a survey or questionnaire intended to get the business owners feedback about the proposal. A 24 page brochure setting out how BID works was also distributed.
> 
> Www.brixton.co.UK/brochure.pdf


Link doesn't work.


----------



## Rushy (Dec 4, 2014)

Rushy said:


> The document you are linking to is a survey or questionnaire intended to get the business owners feedback about the proposal. A 24 page brochure setting out how BID works was also distributed.
> 
> Www.brixton.co.UK/brochure.pdf


Try typing it in without caps. I'm on my phone.


----------



## Rushy (Dec 4, 2014)

editor said:


> Wake up. I asked you a question (which, as usual, you're ignoring) and haven't "misquoted" anything.


It's a bit early for you isn't it. Go back and check whether I said any of what you have attributed to me in that post .


----------



## snowy_again (Dec 4, 2014)

I'm not a fan of BIDs but to be honest, they haven't been set up for long and


editor said:


> Link doesn't work.



It's http://www.brixtonbid.co.uk/brochure.pdf

And you quoted Leanderman, but somehow attributed his comments to Rushy.


----------



## CH1 (Dec 4, 2014)

Rushy said:


> The document you are linking to is a survey or questionnaire intended to get the business owners feedback about the proposal. A 24 page brochure setting out how BID works was also distributed.
> 
> Www.brixton.co.UK/brochure.pdf





editor said:


> Link doesn't work.


I have deduced that Rushy's link is actually: http://www.brixtonbid.co.uk/brochure and the illustrative table of BID levy charges is on page 21

My question now is this - did all the businesses get this document before being asked to vote?


----------



## Rushy (Dec 4, 2014)

snowy_again said:


> And you quoted Leanderman, but somehow attributed his comments to Rushy.


And then demanded I "wake up and respond" when I pointed out I never said it. Dear oh dear.


----------



## editor (Dec 4, 2014)

Rushy said:


> And then demanded I "wake up and respond" when I pointed out I never said it. Dear oh dear.


Oh, that was clearly a quirk of the software. Apologies anyway.


----------



## Rushy (Dec 4, 2014)

editor said:


> Oh, that was clearly a quirk of the software. Apologies anyway.


Accepted. Thanks.


----------



## leanderman (Dec 4, 2014)

editor said:


> And what difference has that made?  I talk to a lot of businesses and traders and I've yet to hear one tell me how the BID has improved things for them.



I'll ask him. But that was not my point.

My point was that engagement is/was very low.


----------



## editor (Dec 4, 2014)

leanderman said:


> I'll ask him. But that was not my point.
> 
> My point was that engagement is/was very low.


That's not true for all traders though, and unless the BID is adding some kind of meaningful, profitable engagement then the traders will be _worse off_.


----------



## Rushy (Dec 4, 2014)

editor said:


> That's not true for all traders though, and unless the BID is adding some kind of meaningful, profitable engagement then the traders will be _worse off_.


What sort of traders are you talking about. I am still not sure what sort of businesses you are talking about?


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 4, 2014)

editor said:


> That's not true for all traders though, and unless the BID is adding some kind of meaningful, profitable engagement then the traders will be _worse off_.


the training ricbake was going on about above can often be accessed for free anyway so it's not like employers would gain that from the bid payments. and anyway this isn't aimed at your brixton small trader but at attracting the sort of thing you'd associate more with dalston or hoxton. while i don't know what everyone in brixton feels about the way those areas have developed, i do know it's not been wholly welcome in hackney.


----------



## editor (Dec 4, 2014)

Rushy said:


> What sort of traders are you talking about. I am still not sure what sort of businesses you are talking about?


I talk to lots of different businesses because I'm out and about a lot in Brixton and know a lot of them - and their opinions on the BID. I'm not going to start naming them though.


----------



## editor (Dec 4, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> the training ricbake was going on about above can often be accessed for free anyway so it's not like employers would gain that from the bid payments. and anyway this isn't aimed at your brixton small trader but at attracting the sort of thing you'd associate more with dalston or hoxton. while i don't know what everyone in brixton feels about the way those areas have developed, i do know it's not been wholly welcome in hackney.


Yes, but they get a FREE ADVERT in the Bugle! Woofuckinghoo.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 4, 2014)

editor said:


> Yes, but they get a FREE ADVERT in the Bugle! Woofuckinghoo.


and what sort of people read this periodical?


----------



## Rushy (Dec 4, 2014)

editor said:


> I talk to lots of different businesses because I'm out and about a lot in Brixton and know a lot of them - and their opinions on the BID. I'm not going to start naming them though.


You don't need to name them, of course. Just some details such as type of business, type of premises, how much BID they are being asked to pay, etc.. Small traders with small premises (shop or stall), shared premises or even no premises should be /are exempt.


----------



## editor (Dec 4, 2014)

Rushy said:


> You don't need to name them, of course. Just some details such as type of business, type of premises, how much BID they are being asked to pay, etc.. Small traders with small premises (shop or stall), shared premises or even no premises should be /are exempt.


Why don't you do what I do and get out and have a talk to the traders yourself? Coldharbour Lane would be a good place to start.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 4, 2014)

editor said:


> Why don't you do what I do and get out and have a talk to the traders yourself? Coldharbour Lane would be a good place to start.


he's cosier posting from a nicely heated room.


----------



## Rushy (Dec 4, 2014)

editor said:


> Why don't you do what I do and get out and have a talk to the traders yourself? Coldharbour Lane would be a good place to start.


I rather suspected that you may be reluctant to add any detail to your argument.


----------



## editor (Dec 4, 2014)

Rushy said:


> I rather suspected that you may be reluctant to add any detail to your argument.


What's the point?  If you're truly that interested, try getting off your arse and finding out these things for yourself.  That's what I do, and that's what I post about.

I frankly don't give a toss if you believe me or not because it strikes me that you don't really give much of a fuck for those at the bottom of the pile. They don't live in your world, after all.


----------



## snowy_again (Dec 4, 2014)

Can you wind back on the personal digs?


----------



## Rushy (Dec 4, 2014)

snowy_again said:


> Can you wind back on the personal digs?


I doubt it. It's just background noise.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 4, 2014)

snowy_again said:


> Can you wind back on the personal digs?


no


----------



## Rushy (Dec 4, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> he's cosier posting from a nicely heated room.


Does that remark suggest that you are talking about outdoor stall holders? And in the context of this thread, those with premises with rateable values over 5k?


----------



## snowy_again (Dec 4, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> no



good.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 4, 2014)

Rushy said:


> Does that remark suggest that you are talking about outdoor stall holders? And in the context of this thread, those with premises with rateable values over 5k?


i'm talking about your reluctance to abandon your computer and venture into the grey desolation than is se24 and sw9


----------



## Rushy (Dec 4, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> i'm talking about your reluctance to abandon your computer


I'm on my phone, smarty pants.



> and venture into the white waste than is se24 and sw9


Er, OK then


----------



## snowy_again (Dec 4, 2014)

((SW2))


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 4, 2014)

Rushy said:


> I'm on my phone, smarty pants.


yes. and instead of going out and doing the research editor suggested you're sat somewhere pissing about instead of talking to people and bolstering your case. and god knows it could do with bolstering.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 4, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> i'm talking about your reluctance to abandon your computer and venture into the grey desolation than is se24 and sw9


and of course sw2


----------



## Winot (Dec 4, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> yes. and instead of going out and doing the research editor suggested you're sat somewhere pissing about instead of talking to people and bolstering your case. and god knows it could do with bolstering.



What "case" is that exactly? The one that pointed out that the original "four figure" sum was way off the mark?


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 4, 2014)

Winot said:


> What "case" is that exactly? The one that pointed out that the original "four figure" sum was way off the mark?


this should of course be 





> which "case" is that exactly?


----------



## Winot (Dec 4, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> this should of course be



Quite right. Posting in haste (from my phone, in SW2).


----------



## Rushy (Dec 4, 2014)

.


----------



## Rushy (Dec 4, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> yes. and instead of going out and doing the research editor suggested you're sat somewhere pissing about instead of talking to people and bolstering your case. and god knows it could do with bolstering.


So pick a hole in the case you believe I have made so badly. Beyond the tedious "you're so privileged you don't understand" which the two of you reach for like a security blanket in times of uncertainty.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 4, 2014)

Rushy said:


> So pick a hole in the case you believe I have made so badly. Beyond the tedious "you're so privileged you don't understand" which the two of you reach for like a security blanket in times of uncertainty.



i haven't anywhere said anything along the lines of 'you're so privileged you don't understand' so you'll understand me when i think you're being less than honest.


----------



## Rushy (Dec 4, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> i haven't anywhere said anything along the lines of 'you're so privileged you don't understand' so you'll understand me when i think you're being less than honest.


You really don't have anything to contribute to the discussion do you!


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 4, 2014)

Rushy said:


> You really don't have anything to contribute to the discussion do you!


and that's your response to being called a liar


----------



## Rushy (Dec 4, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> and that's your response to being called a liar


Like I said earlier, background noise.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 4, 2014)

Rushy said:


> Like I said earlier, background noise.


right. and that's why you had felt driven to lie about what i'd said.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 4, 2014)

Rushy said:


> I have seen at least one person with a rates hike quite literally frothing with rage about it!


background noise

and, incidentally, months after i'd joined the thread

that was your only post on this thread last year

and your subsequent posts on this thread appear to be mithering wank aimed more at getting a rise out of editor than any genuine interest in the subject.


----------



## Rushy (Dec 4, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> right. and that's why you had felt driven to lie about what i'd said.


Dear God!


----------



## editor (Dec 4, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> and your subsequent posts on this thread appear to be mithering wank aimed more at getting a rise out of editor than any genuine interest in the subject.


That's pretty much how I view the majority of his contributions, sadly. It's a shame because he has some useful knowledge that he could bring to the debate but it seems he's rather keep on disrupting important discussion just to score points.

Back to the BID, I know that the Dogstar staff walked out of at least one of their meetings because they found the process so infuriating/pointless.

Example:
BID: "Let's fund a community bulletin board"
Dogstar: "Why? We already have the brilliant and hugely successful urban75"
BID: "Yes, but they don't always agree with us"


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 4, 2014)

Rushy said:


> Dear God!


ok, so why did you lie about what i'd said?


----------



## Rushy (Dec 4, 2014)

I'll leave you two carry on making the 


editor said:


> brilliant and hugely successful urban75


 what it is.


----------



## Winot (Dec 4, 2014)

Rushy said:


> Dear God!



Pickman's model is the only poster on U75 I have on 'ignore'.  Unfortunately the ignore function doesn't work on my phone, and so occasionally I see his posts and get drawn in to responding.  It's never worth it.

It's a shame because he has some useful knowledge that he could bring to the debate but it seems he's rather keep on disrupting important discussion just to score points.


----------



## Winot (Dec 4, 2014)

And the best thing is, I'm now back on my desktop so I won't be able to see any response he posts


----------



## snowy_again (Dec 4, 2014)

editor said:


> That's pretty much how I view the majority of his contributions, sadly. It's a shame because he has some useful knowledge that he could bring to the debate but it seems he's rather keep on disrupting important discussion just to score points.
> 
> Back to the BID, I know that the Dogstar staff walked out of at least one of their meetings because they found the process so infuriating/pointless.
> 
> ...



Hmm, that first bit could apply to many people - so why highlight one poster who asks questions over another?

As for the latter point - I've mentioned before that this place is firewalled by lots of organisations / LA's / Schools / charities etc.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 4, 2014)

Winot said:


> Pickman's model is the only poster on U75 I have on 'ignore'.  Unfortunately the ignore function doesn't work on my phone, and so occasionally I see his posts and get drawn in to responding.  It's never worth it.
> 
> It's a shame because he has some useful knowledge that he could bring to the debate but it seems he's rather keep on disrupting important discussion just to score points.


tell you what, i'll do you a favour and put you on ignore as i've seen nothing from you which is worth reading.


----------



## editor (Dec 4, 2014)

snowy_again said:


> Hmm, that first bit could apply to many people - so why highlight one poster who asks questions over another?


Mainly because it happens with such relentless frequency that it's hard not to mention it sometimes. (see below)


----------



## editor (Dec 4, 2014)

Rushy said:


> I'll leave you two carry on making the
> what it is.


What is the point of this post please? How does it contribute to the discussion?
I was quoting a conversation about the BID.


----------



## editor (Dec 4, 2014)

Winot said:


> Pickman's model is the only poster on U75 I have on 'ignore'.  Unfortunately the ignore function doesn't work on my phone, and so occasionally I see his posts and get drawn in to responding.  It's never worth it.


Then don't do it.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 4, 2014)

editor said:


> What is the point of this post please? How does it contribute to the discussion?
> I was quoting a conversation about the BID.


he's very happy to call other people out - and call other people liars - but he's not so keen on being held to account.


----------



## snowy_again (Dec 4, 2014)

Which is a shame, cos I dislike BIDs as much as everyone else on here - I live near one and work in another and can't see the massive benefits yet. The 'Midtown' one was also appalling. 

It's just that some of the arguments re. 'close to subsistence level' trader income and affordability have been questioned; and not answered.


----------



## Winot (Dec 4, 2014)

snowy_again said:


> Which is a shame, cos I dislike BIDs as much as everyone else on here - I live near one and work in another and can't see the massive benefits yet. The 'Midtown' one was also appalling.
> 
> It's just that some of the arguments re. 'close to subsistence level' trader income and affordability have been questioned; and not answered.



Exactly.  Classic paper tiger, which risks undermining broader point.  And unfortunately part of a pattern here (cf. "nu-Brixton restaurants don't buy from established market" row).


----------



## editor (Dec 4, 2014)

snowy_again said:


> Which is a shame, cos I dislike BIDs as much as everyone else on here - I live near one and work in another and can't see the massive benefits yet. The 'Midtown' one was also appalling.
> 
> It's just that some of the arguments re. 'close to subsistence level' trader income and affordability have been questioned; and not answered.


I've quoted what I was told. 

Either you think that £100+ bills (with possible court costs on top) are 'inconsequential' or you accept that for _some_ struggling traders that unwanted bill may prove a real hardship. 

And - of course - that is by* no means* the only argument that has presented against the BID here, but it happens to be the one that certain individuals have jumped on because they're only interested in scoring points.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 4, 2014)

i'd have thought that at least some of the £333+ per month market traders pay in lambeth would go towards street cleaning. so why should they pay 1.5% or whatever on top of that towards, in part, street cleaning? not to mention the "free" training that could be got elsewhere genuinely without charge.


----------



## editor (Dec 4, 2014)

Winot said:


> And the best thing is, I'm now back on my desktop so I won't be able to see any response he posts


You really are being childish here. If you've put him on ignore, the please leave it that rather than constantly goading for a reaction.


----------



## Winot (Dec 4, 2014)

editor said:


> You really are being childish here. If you've put him on ignore, the please leave it that rather than constantly goading for a reaction.



You're right, I am being childish.  I'll stop.


----------



## editor (Dec 4, 2014)

Here is some of the criticisms that BIDs have attracted:


> Whilst BIDs have been heralded for improving the trading environment, BIDs have also received noteworthy criticism.
> 
> BIDs have been accused of being by their very nature undemocratic, and that they concentrate power in a geographic area into the hands of the few. Small businesses who fall below the BID levy threshold, although not liable to pay the BID levy, are often priced out of an area because BIDs tend to increase rental values. Larger businesses are more able to absorb these rent increases, particularly the multiple stores.
> 
> ...


----------



## Winot (Dec 4, 2014)

editor said:


> I've quoted what I was told.
> 
> Either you think that £100+ bills (with possible court costs on top) are 'inconsequential' or you accept that for _some_ struggling traders that unwanted bill may prove a real hardship.
> 
> And - of course - that is by* no means* the only argument that has presented against the BID here, but it happens to be the one that certain individuals have jumped on because they're only interested in scoring points.



The thing is Ed, you clearly care passionately about the market traders, and that's great, but you're not the best person to represent them on here because you pile in with this sort of thing:



editor said:


> But you'll have to take it from me (or at least until we get another BID feature on B Buzz together, if they're prepared to go on record) that some businesses are finding it _very hard_ to pay out this kind of money. And we're talking four figure sums for something that appears to offer them nothing in return.



and then when it's questioned you get defensive, back-pedal and accuse anyone that is sceptical of scoring points.


----------



## snowy_again (Dec 4, 2014)

editor said:


> I've quoted what I was told.
> 
> Either you think that £100+ bills (with possible court costs on top) are 'inconsequential' or you accept that for _some_ struggling traders that unwanted bill may prove a real hardship.
> 
> And - of course - that is by* no means* the only argument that has presented against the BID here, but it happens to be the one that certain individuals have jumped on because they're only interested in scoring points.



See there it is again - I've not mentioned 'inconsequential'. 

What was questioned was the rate at which people are being asked to pay above and beyond what they already pay in rates, for potentially duplicating services. 

I think the point being made was the £100 is over 12 months. That's £1.90 per week. At £200 that's £3.84 a week. 

If that's unaffordable and the traders are risking having to close their business because of this additional BID costs, what happens if there's a week of terrible weather causing no shoppers to shop? Or staff sickness meaning they can't trade? Or a plague on sprouts? Or a vandalised stall?


----------



## editor (Dec 4, 2014)

Winot said:


> and then when it's questioned you get defensive, back-pedal and accuse anyone that is sceptical of scoring points.


That's a particularly disingenuous and selective summary there. The subsequent discussion (which you've just conveniently skipped to make your point) clarified that the sums would be less than I was told, and I didn't dispute that.


----------



## editor (Dec 4, 2014)

snowy_again said:


> See there it is again - I've not mentioned 'inconsequential'.


I wasn't quoting you. That's why I used ' and not ".


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 4, 2014)

snowy_again said:


> See there it is again - I've not mentioned 'inconsequential'.
> 
> What was questioned was the rate at which people are being asked to pay above and beyond what they already pay in rates, for potentially duplicating services.
> 
> ...


you seem to me to be missing a point, which is that much of what they're supposed to be paying for is already paid for by for example the money they pay for having a stall in a market, or is available free elsewhere, like the training. why would anyone want to pay twice for the one and at all for the other?


----------



## editor (Dec 4, 2014)

snowy_again said:


> If that's unaffordable and the traders are risking having to close their business because of this additional BID costs, what happens if there's a week of terrible weather causing no shoppers to shop? Or staff sickness meaning they can't trade? Or a plague on sprouts? Or a vandalised stall?


That's a really bizarre comparison and one that misses the point so far I'm going to have to leave it.


----------



## oryx (Dec 5, 2014)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-30338663

This story (broadly similar parallels, I reckon) made me think of this thread.

"We are aiming to work with a smaller number of strategic suppliers in the future that can better support and invest in our growth ideas."
He added: "We will now require you to make an investment payment to support our growth.
"I understand that this approach may lead to some questions.
"However, it is important that we take the right steps now to support our future growth."


----------



## CH1 (Dec 18, 2014)

Taking my cue from the Streatham BID thread, I was wondering how people felt about the Brixton Christmas lights this year?

Maybe lights are redundant - after all Coors are paying for that garish Ice-tent thingy, a bright beacon of commerce which only 1 Urbanite admits to having been in! (Not me by the way)


----------



## editor (Dec 18, 2014)

CH1 said:


> Taking my cue from the Streatham BID thread, I was wondering how people felt about the Brixton Christmas lights this year?


Worse than last year and they were shit.


----------



## CH1 (Dec 18, 2014)

editor said:


> Worse than last year and they were shit.


Maybe if they came out of the BID budget this year they were hit by low collection rates.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 18, 2014)

if the lights are by the bid and in previous years they were done by lb lambeth then lambeth must be saving some money. what have they done with it?


----------



## CH1 (Dec 18, 2014)

Its on page 9 of the consultation document: http://www.brixtonbid.co.uk/brochure.pdf


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 18, 2014)

CH1 said:


> Its on page 9 of the consultation document: http://www.brixtonbid.co.uk/brochure.pdf


i don't see how a staffed town centre booth would cure a confusing bus parade and deal with illegal cabs, nor how it would declutter the area.
how is their online brixton business forum - presumably urbansw9 or similar - doing?

what a pile of shit


----------



## editor (Dec 18, 2014)

I don't think I've met a single trader recently who is happy about the BID.


----------



## DietCokeGirl (Dec 19, 2014)

Got a reply to my enquiry about training, asking for course details, dates and venues and any conditions, got a one line response telling me to email someone at lambeth college, Lambeth college have offered courses on stuff like H&S, first aid for the work place, etc. for years.


----------



## editor (Jan 16, 2015)

Small local businesses must feel reassured that the BID is on hand with some great solutions:
Some ‘simple tips and guidelines’ to avoid burglaries at your business, courtesy of Brixton BID


----------



## DrRingDing (Jan 16, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> I had heard might be happening a while back but saw article in SLP on Friday. BIDs started in the US and the idea was brought here by the last Government. They are controversial both here and in US. There has been no consultation with Brixton residents about this. From what I have read residents do not get much say in it. Though it could affect people who live and work in a BID area who do not run a business in the area.
> 
> The one proposed in Fitsrovia has caused debate in the local press. Worth a look as Fitsrovia also has large residential population. In a BID area there is no obligation to consult residents.
> 
> ...



I think you need to change your username


----------



## editor (Apr 28, 2015)

The scheme is a total embarrassment. 
Lambeth Council spends £25,000 on court summons with 27% of local traders yet to pay the Brixton BID


----------



## CH1 (Oct 5, 2015)

For those business oriented citizens who wonder what Brixgton BID has done about the Network Rail business cleansing initiative the is a BBID meeting all morning on Tuesday 6th October at the Satay Bar (whose licensee is I believe the boss of Brixton BID) Brixton BID | We're Talking Business


----------



## 8ball (Oct 6, 2015)

We had a BID in the small town where I live - the businesses just voted to end it. 
In our case the stuff they did seemed to be quite well-intentioned though results were a bit mixed.
Seemed to have been mostly scuppered by the larger businesses (who didn't feel their larger contribution was proportionately rewarded in influence) and Tory councilors.


----------



## editor (Oct 6, 2015)

I think it's fair to say that a "Business Improvement District" (BID) was of absolutely no use whatsoever to the A&C deli. In fact they made things worse, given that they demanded money off them.


----------



## Tricky Skills (Oct 6, 2015)

editor said:


> I think it's fair to say that a "Business Improvement District" (BID) was of absolutely no use whatsoever to the A&C deli. In fact they made things worse, given that they demanded money off them.



Ditto for Kaff, presented with court summons by Lambeth Council chasing the BID tax levy.

Watch out Tulse Hill and West Norwood - you're next as part of Jacko's plans to 'support' local businesses.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 6, 2015)

editor said:


> I think it's fair to say that a "Business Improvement District" (BID) was of absolutely no use whatsoever to the A&C deli. In fact they made things worse, given that they demanded money off them.



I think the one near me also involved businesses paying for it.


----------



## editor (Aug 16, 2018)

So they're trying to get another 5 years, I can't say I've heard many local businesses sing their praises. 

Brixton BID looks set for second term with Lambeth Council asked to approve local tax scheme for five more years

This sounds rather like Brixton Wave, no? 



> Promote Brixton as a visitor destination through proactive promotion and events


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 16, 2018)




----------



## happyshopper (Aug 16, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> View attachment 144194


 So where's this in Brixton? And if it's not Brixton, what's your point?


----------



## 8ball (Aug 16, 2018)

editor said:


> So they're trying to get another 5 years, I can't say I've heard many local businesses sing their praises.
> 
> Brixton BID looks set for second term with Lambeth Council asked to approve local tax scheme for five more years
> 
> This sounds rather like Brixton Wave, no?



I expect these things are very variable in their results, but a few years (well, nearly 3) after my last post about my local one there are a good few traders in the town who miss it.

Where I live is very different to Brixton, so can't make comparisons.


----------



## editor (Aug 16, 2018)

8ball said:


> I expect these things are very variable in their results, but a few years (well, nearly 3) after my last post about my local one there are a good few traders in the town who miss it.
> 
> Where I live is very different to Brixton, so can't make comparisons.


On the one hand they're set up to make Brixton more of a 'destination' yet when it comes to providing toilets for the flood of incomers, the best they can offer is some _posters_ telling people to go to the loo before they leave a bar.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 16, 2018)

happyshopper said:


> So where's this in Brixton? And if it's not Brixton, what's your point?


I don't know where in Brixton it is but it is in Brixton apparently  

What's your point?


----------



## happyshopper (Aug 16, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> I don't know where in Brixton it is but it is in Brixton apparently
> 
> What's your point?


I don’t recognise it as Brixton. What’s your evidence that it’s in Brixton? Otherwise it’s just a lazy stereotype.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 16, 2018)

happyshopper said:


> I don’t recognise it as Brixton. What’s your evidence that it’s in Brixton? Otherwise it’s just a lazy stereotype.


Where's your evidence it isn't? At a rough guess I'd say it was round 418 brixton Road if there was a jeans corner there in April 1981

I am glad to have given you a hobbyhorse for the evening


----------



## 8ball (Aug 16, 2018)

editor said:


> On the one hand they're set up to make Brixton more of a 'destination' yet when it comes to providing toilets for the flood of incomers, the best they can offer is some _posters_ telling people to go to the loo before they leave a bar.



Pretty sure the provision of public conveniences wasn’t on the remit of our lot either.


----------



## editor (Aug 16, 2018)

8ball said:


> Pretty sure the provision of public conveniences wasn’t on the remit of our lot either.


The whole thing is a nonsense. They want more and more people flooding into Brixton to spend their money at the cocktail bars, trendy bars and booze-dispensing restaurants while making no provision to spend their (often unbidden) earnings on improving the already lamentable toilet provision. 

But - hey! - posters! That'll do the trick. 



> Brixton BID is launching its latest anti-street urination campaign.
> 
> The Brixton BID has, together with Brixton Brewery, commissioned new posters and beer mats to be distributed to Brixton’s hospitality businesses to raise awareness around street urination.
> 
> ...


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 16, 2018)

My problem with the BID concept is that business are already paying business rates.

These business rates should already be covering issues like street cleaning, policing and toilets.

Local business should not have the pay twice.

Secondly Brixton is a mixed use area. Shopping , entertainment and residential.

Whatever the pros and cons of Brixton BID I don't think its right that elected Council should give a body like a BID such a lot of influence on an area. Who just represent business


----------



## 8ball (Aug 17, 2018)

Gramsci said:


> My problem with the BID concept is that business are already paying business rates.
> 
> These business rates should already be covering issues like street cleaning, policing and toilets.
> 
> Local business should not have the pay twice.



You seem a bit confused about what these BID things are actually for.


----------



## CH1 (Aug 17, 2018)

editor said:


> The whole thing is a nonsense. They want more and more people flooding into Brixton to spend their money at the cocktail bars, trendy bars and booze-dispensing restaurants while making no provision to spend their (often unbidden) earnings on improving the already lamentable toilet provision.


How about the pools of sick one encounters walking along the streets - often still there the next morning?

I think Brixton BID should copy the street pastors and have mobile co-ordinated ladies with sick buckets and gentlemen with mobile pissoirs to avoid all this unpleasantness for us innocent citizens.


----------



## 8ball (Aug 17, 2018)

They really need to sort out climate change too - that’s looking a bit ominous!


----------



## editor (Aug 17, 2018)

There's been a reduction in public loos across Lambeth - now there's only 19 in the entire borough. 

Where have all the public toilets gone?


----------



## ricbake (Aug 17, 2018)

The BID is privatisation of the Council services at an additional charge - they used to have town centre managers. 
Bizarrly the Council contributes about £50,000 in BID levy for their own buildings...

*What is a Business Improvement District?*
BIDs provide additional or improved services, identified by the local businesses. This could include extra safety, cleaning or environmental measures.
BIDs are business-led organisations. They’re funded by a mandatory levy on all eligible businesses after a successful ballot.
View our interactive map of London BIDs


----------



## CH1 (Aug 17, 2018)

ricbake said:


> The BID is privatisation of the Council services at an additional charge - they used to have town centre managers.
> Bizarrly the Council contributes about £50,000 in BID levy for their own buildings...
> 
> *What is a Business Improvement District?*
> ...


Looks like this is a genuine one: Beddington for Business  Beddington Industrial Area, London Borough of Sutton

I can't see how you can justify an organisation promoting vertical drinking establishments. They are essentially subsidising hipsters IMHO. Good job it doesn't come out of the council tax!


----------



## 8ball (Aug 17, 2018)

ricbake said:


> The BID is privatisation of the Council services at an additional charge - they used to have town centre managers.
> Bizarrly the Council contributes about £50,000 in BID levy for their own buildings...
> 
> *What is a Business Improvement District?*
> ...



It depends on the BID and its remit as to what they decide to do.
Though if they promised improvements to toilet facilities and didn't deliver, then they're clearly fair game for criticism.


----------



## editor (Aug 17, 2018)

8ball said:


> It depends on the BID and its remit as to what they decide to do.
> Though if they promised improvements to toilet facilities and didn't deliver, then they're clearly fair game for criticism.


There's also the issue of the fact that a lot of traders had no idea that they'd be compelled to hand over their cash the BID: 



> A Brixton Buzz Freedom of Information request showed that Lambeth Council was chasing non-payment of the BID for 255 out of 721 local business in 2014/15. This represents 35% of the businesses that formed part of the BID.
> 
> This led to Lambeth Council issuing 141 court summons to local traders. This came at a cost of £23,970 to the Council.
> 
> ...


----------



## 8ball (Aug 17, 2018)

editor said:


> There's also the issue of the fact that a lot of traders had no idea that they'd be compelled to hand over their cash the BID:



The quote does not appear to say that.  Nor is it leaping out of the article at me.


----------



## editor (Aug 17, 2018)

8ball said:


> The quote does not appear to say that.  Nor is it leaping out of the article at me.


"Out of the 721 local businesses in the catchment area, only 227 voted, with 183 of these voting yes to set up the BID – a number lower than the 255 businesses that haven’t paid the non-negotiable BID contribution." So only a _quarter_ of businesses voted yes to the scheme. 

Many of the businesses I spoke to thought it was just some sort of Lambeth spam and didn't even bother opening the letter. Next thing they know they're being taken to court to pay for something they didn't even want. 

Did you talk to any of the local traders at the time?


----------



## 8ball (Aug 17, 2018)

editor said:


> "Out of the 721 local businesses in the catchment area, only 227 voted, with 183 of these voting yes to set up the BID – a number lower than the 255 businesses that haven’t paid the non-negotiable BID contribution." So only a _quarter_ of businesses voted yes to the scheme.
> 
> Many of the businesses I spoke to thought it was just some sort of Lambeth spam and didn't even bother opening the letter. Next thing they know they're being taken to court to pay for something they didn't even want.
> 
> Did you talk to any of the local traders at the time?



Maybe you should make your quotes relate to your claims.


----------



## editor (Aug 17, 2018)

8ball said:


> Maybe you should make your quotes relate to your claims.


Did you talk to any of the traders at the time? I did.

Why do you think so few bothered voting on something that was going to financially affect them? Why do you think such a large number ended up being taken to court?

I stand by my claims.

Lambeth Council issues court summons to 141 Brixton businesses for non-payment of Brixton BID


----------



## 8ball (Aug 17, 2018)

In other news - earth confirmed flat.


----------



## editor (Aug 17, 2018)

8ball said:


> In other news - earth confirmed flat.


What on earth has this got to do with a discussion on Brixton BID?


----------



## 8ball (Aug 17, 2018)

editor said:


> What on earth has this got to do with a discussion on Brixton BID?



Have you even *been* to a flat earth convention?


----------



## editor (Aug 17, 2018)

8ball said:


> Have you even *been* to a flat earth convention?


And now you're asking really stupid questions. Please stop trying to disrupt this thread.


----------



## 8ball (Aug 17, 2018)

editor said:


> And now you're asking really stupid questions. Please stop trying to disrupt this thread.





You are a card.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 17, 2018)

8ball said:


> You are a card.


mind you don't get a red one


----------



## editor (Aug 17, 2018)

8ball said:


> You are a card.


I'm banning you from this thread for a week because I really don't understand why you'r being so needlessly weird and disruptive.


----------



## Lambeth Boy (Aug 17, 2018)

Lambeth Council send the invoices out and receive a  ‘ commission  ‘ from Brixton BID for collecting it , what was the hundreds of thousands spent on ? It really is a scam as nothing has improved in Brixton , I would love someone like Private Eye to run a feature on this


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 17, 2018)

8ball said:


> You seem a bit confused about what these BID things are actually for.



Brixton BID is paying for extra Police constable, hss bought a street cleaning machine it funds to clean streets and has funded a poster campaign about pissing in the Street.

My point is that shopkeepers have told me , correctly imo, that they have already paid for this through business rates.

The levy is being used to pay for things like policing which should be covered by existing charges on business. Same with street cleaning.

And I am not happy with Brixton BID paying for extra PC. Police should be independent of particular organisations. Makes for conflict of interest imo.


----------



## CH1 (Aug 18, 2018)

Gramsci said:


> And I am not happy with Brixton BID paying for extra PC. Police should be independent of particular organisations. Makes for conflict of interest imo.


Can anyone clarify when doormen at the Beehive, Pop Brixton etc wear emblazoned with "Brixton BID", does this mean the security is provided by Brixton BID, endorsed by Brixton BID or required by Brixton BID?


----------



## editor (Aug 18, 2018)

They've wasted the businesses' money on a load of pointless street clutter too.



What does 'Cleaner For Brixton' even mean? Are they advertising for one?


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 18, 2018)

editor said:


> They've wasted the businesses' money on a load of pointless street clutter too.
> 
> View attachment 144399
> 
> What does 'Cleaner For Brixton' even mean? Are they advertising for one?



Its advertising for the Brixton Renewal Ballot next October. The banners are promoting the existence of Brixton BID and what it reckons it does for area.

A BID has to re ballot business to see if business want it to continue.

RENEWAL BALLOT - Brixton BID


----------



## ricbake (Aug 20, 2018)

Lambeth Boy said:


> Lambeth Council send the invoices out and receive a  ‘ commission  ‘ from Brixton BID for collecting it , what was the hundreds of thousands spent on ? It really is a scam as nothing has improved in Brixton , I would love someone like Private Eye to run a feature on this


It won't be Lambeth Council sending out invoices but Capita who probably take a percentage and charge a fee from the Council and the BID


----------



## alcopop (Aug 20, 2018)

ricbake said:


> It won't be Lambeth Council sending out invoices but Capita who probably take a percentage and charge a fee from the Council and the BID


I think they probably add a surcharge on to be paid by the slow paying business


----------



## ricbake (Aug 20, 2018)

alcopop said:


> I think they probably add a surcharge on to be paid by the slow paying business


They send out invoices that take 5 days to reach your business and with just 14 days from the date of invoice to the due date - At the due date they send reminders with a surcharge and threats of court action


----------



## editor (Aug 20, 2018)

ricbake said:


> They send out invoices that take 5 days to reach your business and with just 14 days from the date of invoice to the due date - At the due date they send reminders with a surcharge and threats of court action


And many of those businesses are already struggling to pay their bills, and even if they were well informed enough to know about the vote beforehand, they can't opt out.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 20, 2018)

editor said:


> They've wasted the businesses' money on a load of pointless street clutter too.
> 
> View attachment 144399
> 
> What does 'Cleaner For Brixton' even mean? Are they advertising for one?


when they say (in very small letters at the  bottom of the banner) 'we're talking business', i suppose that's a tacit admission they're more a talking shop than a benefit to their members.


----------



## ricbake (Aug 20, 2018)

At the 2014 ballot
Only 152 businesses out of 445 eligible voted, just 89 – or 20 per cent – voted in favour of the BID.
63 voted against giving a majority for of 59 per cent



Street cleaning (particularly around the Board members businesses) has certainly improved - would the services the BID believe they are responsible for be lost if they don't get a further remit?


----------



## shakespearegirl (Aug 20, 2018)

Be interesting to find out how much the 'anti street urination campaigns' cost and whether that money would have been better spent providing proper places for people to urinate in...


----------



## editor (Aug 20, 2018)

ricbake said:


> At the 2014 ballot
> Only 152 businesses out of 445 eligible voted, just 89 – or 20 per cent – voted in favour of the BID.
> 63 voted against giving a majority for of 59 per cent
> 
> ...


I wonder if they're including Brixton Wave in those '65 local cultural events'.
That "83% YES by voters" really is putting a tornado speed spin in the actual local support for the BID. 

While they're throwing figures about, maybe they should add:
141 COURT SUMMONS SENT TO LOCAL TRADERS BY THE BID


----------



## editor (Aug 20, 2018)

ricbake said:


> At the 2014 ballot
> Only 152 businesses out of 445 eligible voted, just 89 – or 20 per cent – voted in favour of the BID.
> 63 voted against giving a majority for of 59 per cent
> 
> ...


How hard is it to spell 'trees' right, FFS?


----------



## ricbake (Aug 20, 2018)

It does give employment to these guys - don't know if any of them are proof readers!


https://moderngov.lambeth.gov.uk/documents/s97472/Appendix 1 Brixton BID Renewal Ballot Proposal.pdf


----------



## Mr Retro (Aug 20, 2018)

editor said:


> I wonder if they're including Brixton Wave in those '65 local cultural events'.
> That "83% YES by voters" really is putting a tornado speed spin in the actual local support for the BID.


In this case the local businesses will be able to get rid of them this October won’t they? Now that they are all aware of the vote coming up. Or am I missing something?


----------



## editor (Aug 20, 2018)

Mr Retro said:


> In this case the local businesses will be able to get rid of them this October won’t they? Now that they are all aware of the vote coming up. Or am I missing something?


What makes you think "they're all aware of the vote"? Small businesses tend to be distracted by the everyday struggle to keep going and those pointless banners aren't particularly useful or informative.

I very much doubt they'll get anywhere near a 100% response but - hey - you seem to know better so let's see how the figures look after the vote.


----------



## Mr Retro (Aug 20, 2018)

editor said:


> What makes you think "they're all aware of the vote"? Small businesses tend to be distracted by the everyday struggle to keep going and those pointless banners aren't particularly useful or informative.
> 
> I very much doubt they'll get anywhere near a 100% response but - hey - you seem to know better so let's see how the figures look after the vote.


If they were not aware of the first vote they will surely be aware of the second given they are paying for an unwanted service that they can get rid of?


----------



## shakespearegirl (Aug 20, 2018)

The payment of the BID levy over the last 3 years should have made local businesses very aware of the group and it’s upcoming re-vote


----------



## alcopop (Aug 20, 2018)

shakespearegirl said:


> The payment of the BID levy over the last 3 years should have made local businesses very aware of the group and it’s upcoming re-vote


Can’t argue with the logic of that


----------



## editor (Aug 20, 2018)

Mr Retro said:


> If they were not aware of the first vote they will surely be aware of the second given they are paying for an unwanted service that they can get rid of?


Well, let's see if that sunny outlook translates to a hugely impressive turn out for the vote. 

I take it you're all for the concept of BIDs?


----------



## discobastard (Aug 20, 2018)

editor said:


> What makes you think "they're all aware of the vote"? Small businesses tend to be distracted by the everyday struggle to keep going and those pointless banners aren't particularly useful or informative.
> 
> I very much doubt they'll get anywhere near a 100% response but - hey - you seem to know better so let's see how the figures look after the vote.


Are you including the cocktail bars and posh chicken shops/burger bars in that definition of small businesses?  Just for clarity.

Be interesting to know the businesses that *did* respond to the survey ricbake  quoted. 

Don't have the info available but it seems like the 83% based on ricbake 's figures is very wrong (if the majority was only 59%).  In which event there is a very real case to take them to task over their figures.

When producing research reports, any organisation that does not include the proportion of 'don't know' or 'not answered' responses is being deceptive.

I.e. they are either deceiving themselves (which is not unusual) or they are deliberately trying to deceive the audience).


----------



## shakespearegirl (Aug 20, 2018)

editor said:


> Well, let's see if that sunny outlook translates to a hugely impressive turn out for the vote.
> 
> I take it you're all for the concept of BIDs?



I don’t think that’s a very fair comment. 

I can see how a small biz would overlook it the first time and get shafted into paying it. However, now Is the opportunity to do something about it.


----------



## Mr Retro (Aug 20, 2018)

shakespearegirl said:


> The payment of the BID levy over the last 3 years should have made local businesses very aware of the group and it’s upcoming re-vote


Of course it should. I don’t know anything much about the BID’s but I know if it’s as unpopular in Brixton as is being made out then it will be gone by this November. Job done.


----------



## editor (Aug 20, 2018)

discobastard said:


> Are you including the cocktail bars and posh chicken shops/burger bars in that definition of small businesses?  Just for clarity.


This is particularly stupid question, no doubt loaded with some really fucking tedious attempt to score some points.

As I would have thought most people already know, the criteria for paying the BID is the same for any business, whether they be a trendy cocktail bar or supermarket:


> The amount billed is proportional to the size of the business premises. In Brixton, the BID bill is 1.5% of the rateable value of the business and only applies to premises with a rateable value of £8,000 or more.


Just for clarity, can you explain why you've singled out "cocktail bars and posh chicken shops/burger bars" as it seems to be a particularly odd thing to bring up.


----------



## Mr Retro (Aug 20, 2018)

editor said:


> I take it you're all for the concept of BIDs?


On what do you base that assumption please?


----------



## editor (Aug 20, 2018)

Mr Retro said:


> Of course it should. I don’t know anything much about the BID’s but I know if it’s as unpopular in Brixton as is being made out then it will be gone by this November. Job done.


Who said it was unpopular with all businesses? Can you find the quote to support that claim? Thanks.


----------



## editor (Aug 20, 2018)

Mr Retro said:


> On what do you base that assumption please?


See this thing -  *? *

It's a question. Simple yes or no will suffice. Thanks.


----------



## discobastard (Aug 20, 2018)

editor said:


> This is particularly stupid question, no doubt loaded with some really fucking tedious attempt to score some points. But just for clarity, can you explain why you've singled out "cocktail bars and posh chicken shops/burger bars"?
> 
> As I would have thought most people already know, the criteria for paying the BID is the same for any business, whether they be a trendy cocktail bar or supermarket:



I think it's perfectly fair given the general bad feeling here about those kind of businesses.  You talk about high prices in these places and 'profit', but actually for any small business it is tough.  

I don't need to score points, I am just trying to clarify whether your sympathy for these small businesses extends to the cocktail bars and 'foodie' places that tend to be despised here.  I.e. is it a level playing field.  Don't take it personally.


----------



## editor (Aug 20, 2018)

discobastard said:


> I think it's perfectly fair given the general bad feeling here about those kind of businesses.  You talk about high prices in these places and 'profit', but actually for any small business it is tough.
> 
> I don't need to score points, I am just trying to clarify whether your sympathy for these small businesses extends to the cocktail bars and 'foodie' places that tend to be despised here.  I.e. is it a level playing field.  Don't take it personally.


That's the feeblest excuse for an explanation I've seen in a long time. What I think about cocktail bars is *completely and totally irrelevant *to the debate about BIDs. It's just you trying to make it personal. Again.

Oh, and there's plenty of support for cocktail bars and 'foodie' places here, as well you know.


----------



## Mr Retro (Aug 20, 2018)

editor said:


> Who said it was unpopular with all businesses? Can you find the quote to support that claim? Thanks.


Ah! This childish playground style of debate for which you are well known. 
I wasn’t looking for an argument when I asked the first question but as you are desperate for one I’ll bow out and leave to your usual style of “debate”.


----------



## editor (Aug 20, 2018)

Mr Retro said:


> Ah! This childish playground style of debate for which you are well known.
> I wasn’t looking for an argument when I asked the first question but as you are desperate for one I’ll bow out and leave to your usual style of “debate”.


What is 'childish' about asking you to support your own claim? I guess you can't do that, so see ya.


----------



## Mr Retro (Aug 20, 2018)

editor said:


> What is 'childish' about asking you to support your own claim? I guess you can't do that, so see ya.


What claim was this?


----------



## discobastard (Aug 20, 2018)

editor said:


> That's the feeblest excuse for an explanation I've seen in a long time. What I think about cocktail bars is *completely and totally irrelevant *to the debate about BIDs. It's just you trying to make it personal. Again.
> 
> Oh, and there's plenty of support for cocktail bars and 'foodie' places here, as well you know.


OK.  If you want to discuss the 'personal' issue then you can again (as I've said before), take me at my word that I think you do great things, and that I have nothing against you.  I have great admiration for many of the issues that you raise. I can't argue fairer than that.

Fuck that nonsense about support for cocktail bars and foodie places.  I know you don't support them.  I support some diversity, and I don't like to see small independent businesses struggling.  But *some* diversity is good.  We have that in Tulse Hill without it being a hipster takeover.

It's perfectly reasonable to ask whether your problem with the BID levy extends to those new businesses that some people seem to hate. I.e. is it unfair to them as well.  Because as you know, many of them are struggling too and some have gone out of business.

Not a difficult question to answer, nor is it irrelevant.  Just clarity.


----------



## editor (Aug 20, 2018)

Mr Retro said:


> What claim was this?





Mr Retro said:


> I’ll bow out and leave to your usual style of “debate”.


----------



## Mr Retro (Aug 20, 2018)

editor said:


>


Changed my mind. What did I claim that I can’t back up please?


----------



## editor (Aug 20, 2018)

discobastard said:


> It's perfectly reasonable to ask whether your problem with the BID levy extends to those new businesses that some people seem to hate. I.e. is it unfair to them as well.  Because as you know, many of them are struggling too and some have gone out of business.


No, it is NOT reasonable to try and single out individual types of businesses and then try to frame any discussion around my personal opinion about them. It is totally fucking irrelevant to the issue of the Brixton BID which affects *all *businesses above a certain size.


----------



## editor (Aug 20, 2018)

Mr Retro said:


> Changed my mind. What did I claim that I can’t back up please?


Oh just fuck off you tedious troll.


----------



## Mr Retro (Aug 20, 2018)

editor said:


> Oh just fuck off you tedious troll.


I’ve asked you to support your incorrect claim and you can’t so I’m a troll?


----------



## editor (Aug 20, 2018)

Mr Retro said:


> I’ve asked you to support your incorrect claim and you can’t so I’m a troll?


Let me make your mind up for you: take a week off this thread,


----------



## discobastard (Aug 20, 2018)

editor said:


> No, it is NOT reasonable to try and single out individual types of businesses and then try to frame any discussion around my personal opinion about them. It is totally fucking irrelevant to the issue of the Brixton BID which affects *all *businesses above a certain size.



OK, why don't you just say then that it's unfair to any business. 

I said in my first post on this that we don't know which type of business responded to the 2014 survey, and it would be interesting to know (implicitly) whether it was the 'profit guzzling' new businesses or not that favour the BID.

And it's not a personal opinion I'm attacking.  I'm asking questions not supporting a particular cause.  If you can't accept these questions when you are trying to present an argument then you're fucked.

Try and respond for a change by listening to the question rather than trying to make it personal or an attack.  This forum is not all about you.

ETA: why not give me a week off too.  Abusive language towards Mr Retro and any kind of disagreement evidently means a ban.  Fuck's sake.  Get a grip dude.


----------



## editor (Aug 20, 2018)

discobastard said:


> OK, why don't you just say then that it's unfair to any business.


When have I EVER argued that it was only unfair to some businesses?

Why do you keep trying to make the discussion revolve around my personal beliefs? Because that's all you've tried to do by bringing up fucking cocktail bars and trendy burger bars.


----------



## discobastard (Aug 20, 2018)

editor said:


> When have I EVER argued that it was only unfair to some businesses?
> 
> Why do you keep trying to make the discussion revolve around my personal beliefs? Because that's all you've tried to do by bringing up fucking cocktail bars and trendy burger bars.


If these discussions aren't about personal beliefs then why are we bothering.


----------



## discobastard (Aug 20, 2018)

editor said:


> When have I EVER argued that it was only unfair to some businesses?



Please show me where i have argued that you think it is only unfair to some businesses.
Thanks.


----------



## editor (Aug 20, 2018)

discobastard said:


> If these discussions aren't about personal beliefs then why are we bothering.


Brixton BID is not a "personal belief". It's a tax on small businesses. That is what we're (trying) to discuss, but you only seem interested in trying to reduce it down to some nonsense about me not being a fan of cocktail bars. Why, exactly?


----------



## discobastard (Aug 20, 2018)

Why have you banned Mr Retro?  You have been abusive twice in a row after simple questions.  We should get a mod to review this.


----------



## editor (Aug 20, 2018)

discobastard said:


> Please show me where i have argued that you think it is only unfair to some businesses.
> Thanks.


What the fuck are you on about now? But well done, one interesting Brixton thread duly disrupted with personal shit.


----------



## discobastard (Aug 20, 2018)

editor said:


> Brixton BID is not a "personal belief". It's a tax on small businesses. That is what we're (trying) to discuss, but you only seem interested in trying to reduce it down to some nonsense about me not being a fan of cocktail bars. Why, exactly?


OK.  So do you feel that *all* businesses, irrespective of their type, should be exempt from this fee?  Yes or no.


----------



## discobastard (Aug 20, 2018)

editor said:


> What the fuck are you on about now? But well done, one interesting Brixton thread duly disrupted with personal shit.


A very clear response to your previous post.  My stance on it being personal was noted clearly above.  Which included what I thought were very complimentary thoughts about what you do.


----------



## editor (Aug 20, 2018)

discobastard said:


> OK.  So do you feel that *all* businesses, irrespective of their type, should be exempt from this fee?  Yes or no.


I've made my opinions and thoughts about the BID very clear throughout this thread. Please read it if you want this discussion to continue.


----------



## discobastard (Aug 20, 2018)

Yes or no.


----------



## editor (Aug 20, 2018)

discobastard said:


> Yes or no.


Seeing as you can't be bothered to read the thread and are trying to go all Paxman on me, I'll have one last go before giving up talking to you.

BIDS may work in some towns, but I've held deep concerns about their undemocratic  not convinced by the Brixton one. I have stated this from the staRT

Gramsci worded the local concerns about the BID back in 2013 very well. His interactions with local shopkeepers were consistent with mine.
Would a "Business Improvement District" (BID) be good for Brixton?
TruXta added a useful post from another BID:
Would a "Business Improvement District" (BID) be good for Brixton?
And I agree with his post here:
Would a "Business Improvement District" (BID) be good for Brixton?

I posted my own concerns here: Would a "Business Improvement District" (BID) be good for Brixton?

And I stand by what I said here: Would a "Business Improvement District" (BID) be good for Brixton? and here Would a "Business Improvement District" (BID) be good for Brixton?

And here's one local shopkeeper's response: Would a "Business Improvement District" (BID) be good for Brixton?

I could go on, but I'll probably just get a daft reply and this thread has already been derailed enough to make the last couple of pages worthless.


----------



## SpamMisery (Aug 20, 2018)

Brixton Bid do some good stuff according to their website


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 20, 2018)

shakespearegirl said:


> I don’t think that’s a very fair comment.
> 
> I can see how a small biz would overlook it the first time and get shafted into paying it. However, now Is the opportunity to do something about it.



As much as I support small business they aren't that good at campaigning.

Most of them I know know are sole traders. They complain to me but aren't good at pushing campaign to vote no for BID. 

I think what people forget is that a BID includes all those who pay business rates. Includes MET cop shop in Brixton road.


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 20, 2018)

Mr Retro said:


> Of course it should. I don’t know anything much about the BID’s but I know if it’s as unpopular in Brixton as is being made out then it will be gone by this November. Job done.



I do know about Brixton BID. As I talk to local small business I know. Business I have used for number of years. I have also met Brixton BID director at local community meetings.

I'm surprised as you being involved in business they you don't know much about Brixton BID.


----------



## discobastard (Aug 20, 2018)

discobastard said:


> Yes or no.





editor said:


> Seeing as you can't be bothered to read the thread and are trying to go all Paxman on me, I'll have one last go before giving up talking to you.
> 
> BIDS may work in some towns, but I've help deep concerns about their undemocratic  not convinced by the Brixton one. I have stated this from the staRT
> 
> ...



I acknowledge all of these concerns.  I've already made clear how I think that the stats don't add up.  All I asked was whether you feel it was unfair for *all* businesses, including those that get maligned on this thread.  It's not complicated.


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 20, 2018)

SpamMisery said:


> Brixton Bid do some good stuff according to their website



Please give examples.


----------



## editor (Aug 20, 2018)

discobastard said:


> I acknowledge all of these concerns.  I've already made clear how I think that the stats don't add up.  All I asked was whether you feel it was unfair for *all* businesses, including those that get maligned on this thread.  It's not complicated.


FFS: what point are you trying to achieve here? I have deep concerns about the BID in Brixton in general and I've detailed many of them here. In some detail. That's it.

Hundreds of businesses are affected by it. Some have voiced concerns, others haven't. Some support it, some don't. Trying to split up the businesses along a bizarre narrative of whether they're universally liked or not by me or anyone else is _completely irrelevant_.


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 20, 2018)

Mr Retro said:


> In this case the local businesses will be able to get rid of them this October won’t they? Now that they are all aware of the vote coming up. Or am I missing something?



So do you think hard pressed sole traders paying an extra fee on top of business rates for this  BID concept is good idea?


----------



## editor (Aug 20, 2018)

Gramsci said:


> So do you think hard pressed sole traders paying an extra fee on top of business rates for this  BID concept is good idea?


I've booted him off the thread for 7 days because he was acting like dick, but I'll take his ban down to one day so he can answer your points later.


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 20, 2018)

Well sole traders I know don't see why they should pay estra for policing and street cleaning through Brixton BID when they already pay for this in business rates.

They have enough problems keeping afloat anyway. 

I don't think some people realise for a lot of small shopkeepers breaking even and going under is fact of life.

Perhaps they should try harder. Make "sandwiches".


----------



## editor (Aug 20, 2018)

Gramsci said:


> Well sole traders I know don't see why they should pay estra for policing and street cleaning through Brixton BID when they already pay for this in business rates.


Which is exactly my problem with this. 

The notion of the BID funding and having a say where extra police officers get allocated also makes me feel very uneasy.


----------



## ricbake (Aug 21, 2018)

SpamMisery said:


> Brixton Bid do some good stuff according to their website


I bet even you do good stuff according to your own website....


----------



## shakespearegirl (Aug 21, 2018)

editor said:


> Which is exactly my problem with this.
> 
> The notion of the BID funding and having a say where extra police officers get allocated also makes me feel very uneasy.



I agree, business rates are already being paid and should be set at a level that covers the services they provide. If businesses want to chip in to pay for additional security, cleaning, toilets, advertising, that’s fine. But it should be voluntary and transparent, not compulsory because a ./. Voted for it. That said, business owners however big or small shouldn’t be ignoring communications from Lambeth or Lambeth will get these kind of schemes through. Now is their opportunity to kick the BID out and only they can do it


----------



## Southlondon (Aug 21, 2018)

shakespearegirl said:


> I agree, business rates are already being paid and should be set at a level that covers the services they provide. If businesses want to chip in to pay for additional security, cleaning, toilets, advertising, that’s fine. But it should be voluntary and transparent, not compulsory because a ./. Voted for it. That said, business owners however big or small shouldn’t be ignoring communications from Lambeth or Lambeth will get these kind of schemes through. Now is their opportunity to kick the BID out and only they can do it


There’s a BID running in Vauxhall which after initial resistance from a minority of businesses has proved to be quite popular. The income from business rates doesn’t go to the council but into central government. Some of that is returned to the council and is a component of their austerity reduced income. The BID money faiswd from businesses with a rateable value above £8000 are kept locally for the businesses to spend as they see fit. In Vauxhall they pay for extra street cleaning which makes a big difference at weekends after the clubbers have left the area strewn with vomit, drugs paraphernalia, and the usual litter generated by the night time economy. As well as things like hanging baskets pavement flushings and extra litter bins, the BID have paid for and promoted community events like the open air cinema in the summer and an ice rink in winter, which attract huge numbers of visitors into the BID area. Businesses including the ones too small to pay into the BID benefit from extra customers, and these events provide some compensation for the local community. I appreciate the fact that I can walk up to Vauxhall’s shops on a Sunday morning without playing hopscotch along the pavement trying to dodge vomit, shit and nitrogen canisters. Of course small businesses are suffering with buisness rates, but I believe that’s the issue that should be looked at which is a central government issue not local council. Local austerity means the council are struggling to maintain core services  and street cleaning and buisness peomotion has suffered. So if local buisnesses vote to pay a levy to fund their local priorities then why shouldn’t they.? People on my estate have to put up with the inconvenience of having a local night time economy, so the BID If well managed benfits is as well as the buisness owners.


----------



## shakespearegirl (Aug 21, 2018)

Southlondon said:


> There’s a BID running in Vauxhall which after initial resistance from a minority of businesses has proved to be quite popular. The income from business rates doesn’t go to the council but into central government. Some of that is returned to the council and is a component of their austerity reduced income. The BID money faiswd from businesses with a rateable value above £8000 are kept locally for the businesses to spend as they see fit. In Vauxhall they pay for extra street cleaning which makes a big difference at weekends after the clubbers have left the area strewn with vomit, drugs paraphernalia, and the usual litter generated by the night time economy. As well as things like hanging baskets pavement flushings and extra litter bins, the BID have paid for and promoted community events like the open air cinema in the summer and an ice rink in winter, which attract huge numbers of visitors into the BID area. Businesses including the ones too small to pay into the BID benefit from extra customers, and these events provide some compensation for the local community. I appreciate the fact that I can walk up to Vauxhall’s shops on a Sunday morning without playing hopscotch along the pavement trying to dodge vomit, shit and nitrogen canisters. Of course small businesses are suffering with buisness rates, but I believe that’s the issue that should be looked at which is a central government issue not local council. Local austerity means the council are struggling to maintain core services  and street cleaning and buisness peomotion has suffered. So if local buisnesses vote to pay a levy to fund their local priorities then why shouldn’t they.? People on my estate have to put up with the inconvenience of having a local night time economy, so the BID If well managed benfits is as well as the buisness owners.



Don't disagree with anything you are saying. 

If businesses want to chip in and pay for additional services, then they should be able to do so. The complaints here were that a substantial number of the businesses weren't aware of the scheme, didn't understand that payments would be compulsory or aren't happy with the way it is being run and feel that certain businesses are being prioritised. Now that there is an opportunity to vote again on something that they have a clearer understanding of, they shouldn't waste that opportunity. 

I think people in the Brixton community are very cynical of Lambeth local government and most things they do. 

The relentless promotion of a 'nighttime economy' without any additional provision to manage it or the mess it leaves behind is a major issue.


----------



## SpamMisery (Aug 21, 2018)

ricbake said:


> I bet even you do good stuff according to your own website....



eh...


----------



## teuchter (Aug 21, 2018)

Look, can everyone stop disrupting this discussion by taking part in the discussion please? It's very hard to get anywhere if everything keeps getting messed up by too many people's different opinions. Thanks.


----------



## editor (Aug 21, 2018)

shakespearegirl said:


> The relentless promotion of a 'nighttime economy' without any additional provision to manage it or the mess it leaves behind is a major issue.


But at least we got some 'please don't urinate here' posters! Brixton stinks at night with piss. Instead of wasting money with pointless and oblique flapping banners, the BID could have at least hired in some portable loos.


----------



## shakespearegirl (Aug 21, 2018)

That’s exactly what I said earlier in the thread -
Obvs can’t find it now!!


----------



## discobastard (Aug 21, 2018)

editor said:


> But at least we got some 'please don't urinate here' posters! Brixton stinks at night with piss. Instead of wasting money with pointless and oblique flapping banners, the BID could have at least hired in some portable loos.


Perhaps it is worth approaching the BID and asking whether portaloos is a possibility.  It sounds like a very sensible idea to me, and a good use of subscriber cash.  

Completely agree that posters is a pretty weak approach. 

Worth compiling a list of practical solutions to some of the problems.  I’m sure many businesses would be happy to be involved.


----------



## alex_ (Aug 21, 2018)

discobastard said:


> Perhaps it is worth approaching the BID and asking whether portaloos is a possibility.  It sounds like a very sensible idea to me, and a good use of subscriber cash.
> 
> Completely agree that posters is a pretty weak approach.
> 
> Worth compiling a list of practical solutions to some of the problems.  I’m sure many businesses would be happy to be involved.



What about pop up urinals ?

Toilets are popping up on city streets at night  | CityMetric

Alex


----------



## discobastard (Aug 21, 2018)

alex_ said:


> What about pop up urinals ?
> 
> Toilets are popping up on city streets at night  | CityMetric
> 
> Alex


Decent idea but very expensive.  Thought there was one in Brixton at some point? Expensive to maintain.  

The alternative is to introduce something that makes it socially unacceptable and raises awareness. Rather than saying ‘go before you go’, which is kind of meaningless, you put up posters of people caught in the act. Same as they’ve done with people texting while driving.  

If you want to change behaviour you need to make it personal.  

And that’s something the community can do.


----------



## editor (Aug 21, 2018)

discobastard said:


> Perhaps it is worth approaching the BID and asking whether portaloos is a possibility.  It sounds like a very sensible idea to me, and a good use of subscriber cash.


They would be seriously lacking in their duties if they weren't already fully aware of the problem:


> Back in August 2014, a petition was launched asking Lambeth Council to provide more public toilets in Brixton, but nothing has been done since. We also wrote a piece highlighting these concerns last year: Brixton’s lack of loos and the Great British Public Toilet Map.
> 
> Public toilets in Brixton – a guide to public conveniences for those in need


And there's a 160 post thread here: Petition launched to provide more public toilets in Brixton



alex_ said:


> What about pop up urinals ?
> 
> Toilets are popping up on city streets at night  | CityMetric
> 
> Alex


We've already got one. Problem is that it hardly ever pops up (and it's in a ridiculously exposed position).


----------



## editor (Aug 21, 2018)

discobastard said:


> Decent idea but very expensive.  Thought there was one in Brixton at some point? Expensive to maintain.
> 
> The alternative is to introduce something that makes it socially unacceptable and raises awareness. Rather than saying ‘go before you go’, which is kind of meaningless, you put up posters of people caught in the act. Same as they’ve done with people texting while driving.
> 
> ...


Give the increasing amount of people pissing all over Brixton every weekend - a _direct_ result of the huge increase in bars, clubs and licensed premises, the oft-repeated desire to make Brixton a 'destination' and the reduction in the already-paltry amount of public toilets - how do you envision you'll get pissed people to change their behaviour?

Without more toilets to cater for the cocktail-bloated, booze-addled masses, the streets will continue to stink of piss every night, and no poster campaign is going to make any noticeable difference.


----------



## discobastard (Aug 21, 2018)

editor said:


> They would be seriously lacking in their duties if they weren't already fully aware of the problem:
> And there's a 160 post thread here: Petition launched to provide more public toilets in Brixton
> 
> 
> We've already got one. Problem is that it hardly ever pops up (and it's in a ridiculously exposed position).


No reason to give up though eh? I was trying to add something constructive.  

Why not ask them again, or we could come up with a community initiative as outlined in previous post.


----------



## discobastard (Aug 21, 2018)

editor said:


> Give the increasing amount of people pissing all over Brixton every weekend - a _direct_ result of the huge increase in bars, clubs and licensed premises, the oft-repeated desire to make Brixton a 'destination' and the reduction in the already-paltry amount of public toilets - how do you envision you'll get pissed people to change their behaviour?
> 
> Without more toilets to cater for the cocktail-bloated, booze-addled masses, the streets will continue to stink of piss every night, and no poster campaign is going to make any noticeable difference.


Did you even read my post? [emoji849]


----------



## editor (Aug 21, 2018)

discobastard said:


> No reason to give up though eh? I was trying to add something constructive.
> 
> Why not ask them again, or we could come up with a community initiative as outlined in previous post.


Could you explain how this "community initiative" would actually work please?


discobastard said:


> Did you even read my post? [emoji849]


Yes I did and answered with salient points. How would you get pissed up people to change their behaviour without the provision of far more toilets?


----------



## discobastard (Aug 21, 2018)

editor said:


> Could you explain how this "community initiative" would actually work please?
> Yes I did and answered with salient points. How would you get pissed up people to change their behaviour without the provision of far more toilets?


You approach the council/BID and make a very professional case that street pissing is is a serious problem.  

You put forward a potential solution, or at least discuss some of them.  You might even try and solicit some sponsorship from businesses (e.g. BT who have those big digital screen things) and who have a CSR budget.  

One of which, as I have suggested, is for people to submit pictures of people who are pissing in the street, which then are shown on the screens or somesuch.  

It is not a fully formed idea, but is fairly consistent with a lot of successful behaviours change initiatives in the past.  

If you don’t want constructive suggestions to something you clearly feel strongly about then please just say.  Glass half full or half empty?

ETA: happy to be involved.


----------



## discobastard (Aug 21, 2018)

Oh, and lots of the most successful behaviour change programmes are delivered by the community.  

Pink flags on dogshit etc.


----------



## discobastard (Aug 21, 2018)

We could try and crowdsource a proper solution here if you could just stop objecting to everything.


----------



## editor (Aug 21, 2018)

discobastard said:


> You approach the council/BID and make a very professional case that street pissing is is a serious problem.


Members of the public aren't invited to BID meetings. That's because - as their names says  -it's for businesses only.

And why the hell should I or anyone else have to make a "professional" case to anyone? Why don't you do that if you're so sure it's the way forward?
Everyone knows the size of the problem in Brixton and I've done more than my fair share writing about the problem several times, tweeting it to tens of thousands of followers and telling one councillor directly.



discobastard said:


> One of which, as I have suggested, is for people to submit pictures of people who are pissing in the street, which then are shown on the screens or somesuch.


I'd love to hear constructive suggestions but going around taking sneaky pictures of drunk people in the street is (a) unlikely to make any real difference and (b) could put the photographer at risk of serIous injury as this case from just one day ago proves conclusively. It's a really stupid and dangerous idea.



> A couple were "viciously" attacked after challenging a man who was urinating in a north London street.
> 
> Police are appealing for information about the "needless" assault. The 43-year-old man suffered a bleed on the brain, a broken jaw, eye damage and severe bruising.
> 
> ...



Couple viciously attacked after confronting man urinating in street


----------



## editor (Aug 21, 2018)

discobastard said:


> We could try and crowdsource a proper solution here if you could just stop objecting to everything.


Forgive me for objecting to an idea that could lead to people getting their faces smashed in. Who the hell would want to risk life and limb going around the streets late at night taking pictures of people with their cocks out? And why do you think that's going to stop the thousands of other people pissing everywhere else?

I see multiple people pissing outside my block every weekend. There is no way on earth I'm going to come up to them to take a picture.


----------



## discobastard (Aug 21, 2018)

editor said:


> Members of the public aren't invited to BID meetings. That's because - as their names says  -it's for businesses only.
> 
> And why the hell should I or anyone else have to make a "professional" case to anyone? Why don't you do that if you're so sure it's the way forward?
> Everyone knows the size of the problem in Brixton and I've done more than my fair share writing about the problem several times, tweeting it to tens of thousands of followers and telling one councillor directly.
> ...


I told you I’d be happy to be involved in putting a professional business case forward.  I have no idea why you put the word professional in quotes.   

Obviously I am not suggesting that people ‘confront’ street pissers.  

I am trying to suggest some ideas that others might think on and come up with some decent suggestions.  

I am on the same side as you are, so I’m not really sure why you’re being such a dick about it. 

Are you suggesting that we should *stop* trying to come up with ideas to prevent street pissing? Because it looks that way to me.  

Behaviour change is complex, but I bet we can come up with some great ideas if we put our minds to it.   

But you don’t seem to want that. FFS.


----------



## discobastard (Aug 21, 2018)

editor said:


> Forgive me for objecting to an idea that could lead to people getting their faces smashed in. Who the hell would want to risk life and limb going around the streets late at night taking pictures of people with their cocks out? And why do you think that's going to stop the thousands of other people pissing everywhere else?
> 
> I see multiple people pissing outside my block every weekend. There is no way on earth I'm going to come up to them to take a picture.


You could take a photo from a distance couldn’t you?

Jesus.

ETA: Or you could use CCTV pictures of people pissing in the street.


----------



## editor (Aug 21, 2018)

discobastard said:


> You could take a photo from a distance couldn’t you?


Honestly, your idea is insane. You're telling people to put their personal safety at risk in the frankly quite bizarre quest to capture people's faces as they take a piss around town?

People tend to piss in dark alleyways, so to achieve your stated aim of 'shaming' someone, you'd have to get up very close to capture their face and use a flash to capture any detail. To attempt to capture someone pissing in the dark from afar you'd need an expensive SLR camera with an expensive zoom lens and even then you'd struggle to get any damning detail.

It's a ridiculous and dangerous idea, but if you think it's a winner, why don't you get on the streets at 2 in the morning this weekend and see how you get on?


----------



## editor (Aug 21, 2018)

discobastard said:


> I told you I’d be happy to be involved in putting a professional business case forward.  I have no idea why you put the word professional in quotes.
> 
> Obviously I am not suggesting that people ‘confront’ street pissers.
> 
> ...


The only practical way to stop people pissing over the streets is to put up more toilets. Everywhere. All over Brixton. It's now being promoted heavily - by the BID and Lambeth - as a night destination so if you have massively increased crowds of people being encouraged to come into Brixton and spend their money in licensed premises, there's going to be a massively increased amount of people wanting a piss. The night tube just exacerbates the situation with the streets packed every weekend until very late. 

Do you know how many public toilets are available in central Brixton at 2am?


----------



## discobastard (Aug 21, 2018)

editor said:


> Honestly, your idea is insane. You're telling people to put their personal safety at risk in the frankly quite bizarre quest to capture people's face as they take a piss around town?
> 
> People tend to piss in dark alleyways, so to achieve your stated aim of 'shaming' someone, you'd have to get up very close to capture their face and use a flash to capture any detail. To attempt to capture someone pissing in the dark from afar you'd need an expensive SLR camera with an expensive zoom lens and even then you'd struggle to get any damning detail.
> 
> It's a ridiculous and dangerous idea, but if you think it's a winner, why don't you get on the streets at 2 in the morning this weekend and see how you get on?


Fucks sake.  

You don’t understand behaviour change do you? You don’t need to get up in people’s faces.  All you need to do is show that there are examples of people pissing in the street and have been captured doing so.  

I told you that these are just ideas, I don’t claim to have the best solution, but that people can put forward ideas here to try and tackle the issue. 

But you seem to be crushing any kind of positive action.  I don’t know why. 

What’s your solution then?

If anybody wants to discuss it and come up with some clever solutions (which may or may not be a final answer), then let’s meet at the Effra Social at 8pm on Thursday and see if we can come up with some good ideas to knock around.   

It might not arrive at the perfect solution but it’s better than your glass half full bullshit.  And at least we’ll have tried to come up with some ideas.   

Hope you can join us.


----------



## editor (Aug 21, 2018)

discobastard said:


> What’s your solution then?.


I've already told you: fewer pointless flapping advert banners, fewer pointless 'take a piss before you go' posters and MORE PUBLIC TOILETS.
That's extremely positive action and - in my opinion - the only thing that's likely to have any noticeable impact on the twats who use the streets and doorways of Brixton - and my block - as toilets every weekend. 

Oh and you didn't answer my question: Do you know how many public toilets are available in central Brixton at 2am?
The answer to that is absolutely central the the problem.

Good luck with your meeting. Be sure to post up your solutions.


----------



## discobastard (Aug 21, 2018)

editor said:


> I've already told you: fewer pointless flapping advert banners, fewer pointless 'take a piss before you go' posters and MORE PUBLIC TOILETS.
> That's extremely positive action and - in my opinion - the only thing that's likely to have any noticeable impact on the twats who use the streets and doorways of Brixton - and my block - as toilets every weekend.
> 
> Oh and you didn't answer my question: Do you know how many public toilets are available in central Brixton at 2am?
> ...


I have no idea how many public toilets are available in Brixton at 2am.  

I take it from your comment that you aren’t interested in getting involved in any effort to come up with an effective solution.  Shame, given your standing in the local community.


----------



## SpamMisery (Aug 21, 2018)

That's an interesting concept discobastard

There was a really interesting study where an office put up a photo of someone's eyes (from ear to ear but not the parts of the face above or below) next to the office fridge with words to the effect of "food theft is still theft". Theft of food virtually disappeared. People hate sensing they are being watched by unseen individuals and, consequently, modify their behaviour.


----------



## editor (Aug 21, 2018)

discobastard said:


> I have no idea how many public toilets are available in Brixton at 2am.


Maybe that should be your starting point if you want to find out an effective solution? The answer is none. Zero

Even the Blog has written about it so there's been no shortage of publicity about this situation.


> Local MP Helen Hayes listened as he and others demanded to know why public conveniences in Windrush Square – closed for 30 years – were up for rent when, in March this year, he and other campaigners had been given hope by Lambeth council that they might be reopened.
> 
> Forum members said they had been raising the issue with the councillors for at least 10 years.
> 
> ...





discobastard said:


> I take it from your comment that you aren’t interested in getting involved in any effort to come up with an effective solution.


I've already offered up what I believe would be the ONLY effective solution.


----------



## discobastard (Aug 21, 2018)

SpamMisery said:


> That's an interesting concept discobastard
> 
> There was a really interesting study where an office put up a photo of someone's eyes (from ear to ear but not the parts of the face above or below) next to the office fridge with words to the effect of "food theft is still theft". Theft of food virtually disappeared. People hate sensing they are being watched by unseen individuals and, consequently, modify their behaviour.


Quite right.  There are some really interesting ways of getting people to change behaviour.  

I can’t say I’m an expert but am happy to try and facilitate a discussion for those that are interested.  And also try and approach people (like BT) who may be able to further help some way of changing behaviour.   

I’m only going to turn up if others commit to coming obviously (sounds like Editor isn’t interested) but if anybody else does want to come along and knock some ideas round to address the issue then can they drop me a PM or say so here.  

Cheers.


----------



## discobastard (Aug 21, 2018)

editor said:


> Maybe that should be your starting point if you want to find out an effective solution? The answer is none. Zero
> 
> Even the Blog has written about it so there's been no shortage of publicity about this situation.
> 
> I've already offered up what I believe would be the ONLY effective solution.


That’s fine dude. I understand your position.  Total respect for that.  

If anybody else is up for discussing it on Thursday I’ll keep you in the loop.


----------



## discobastard (Aug 21, 2018)

.


----------



## ricbake (Aug 22, 2018)

People pissing in the street is a world wide problem, providing toilets has to be the best solution.
Lambeth Council spent £110 million on the Town Hall and Civic Centre but provide no public toilets.
Out of the BIDs half million £ per annum budget they aren't going to make much impression.
The venues selling the booze need to be given responsibility - 10pee on a drink to the urinal fund?

The Academy attracting 5,000 punters a concert who drink before arriving and then have their fill at the event, supply literally 100s of pisser to the surrounding streets and door steps.

4 inventive ways cities deal with public urination  | CityMetric
Paris seeks to stem the flow of public urination
San Francisco’s Solution to Public Urination Problem Could Work in NYC


----------



## shakespearegirl (Aug 22, 2018)

I really can't see BT's CSR department donating to a scheme where you publicly shame people and show their images on giant screens.. 

The logical answer is public toilets that are open when the public are leaving venues and security between major venues and the tube to move people along and stop them pissing on the streets. And the main thoroughfares being thoroughly cleaned every day! 

I work near Gillet Square in Dalston, there is a massive street scene - from temporary kids playgrounds being set up, to hundreds of people partying on a hot evening - there it a pissoir permanently in the square and it is hosed down every morning. At least the council is doing something to control the impact.


----------



## alcopop (Aug 22, 2018)

They used to do something like this in Lambeth I think

Community Toilet Scheme (CTS) - City of London


----------



## shakespearegirl (Aug 22, 2018)

Lambeth do have a community scheme. 

Find a public toilet | Lambeth Council

Don't think its very well publicised though and I've heard of places like McDonalds not honouring it during busy times.


----------



## alcopop (Aug 22, 2018)

shakespearegirl said:


> Lambeth do have a community scheme.
> 
> Find a public toilet | Lambeth Council
> 
> Don't think its very well publicised though and I've heard of places like McDonalds not honouring it during busy times.


Cool, maybe Brixton BID could publicise it using posters?


----------



## shakespearegirl (Aug 22, 2018)

Why not just open some public toilets!!


----------



## alcopop (Aug 22, 2018)

shakespearegirl said:


> Why not just open some public toilets!!


Easier and cheaper to do posters tbh


----------



## Southlondon (Aug 22, 2018)

editor said:


> They would be seriously lacking in their duties if they weren't already fully aware of the problem:
> And there's a 160 post thread here: Petition launched to provide more public toilets in Brixton
> 
> 
> We've already got one. Problem is that it hardly ever pops up (and it's in a ridiculously exposed position).


We have a urinal on the Vauxhall transport interchange, and one adjacent to the Vauxhall Tavern. I’m not sure if they’re funded by the BID or the council, but it’s worth raising it with the BID. Also worth pointing out the effectiveness of BIDs depends on how well they’re managed, and how effectively they engage with the local community.


----------



## editor (Aug 22, 2018)

shakespearegirl said:


> Lambeth do have a community scheme.
> 
> Find a public toilet | Lambeth Council
> 
> Don't think its very well publicised though and I've heard of places like McDonalds not honouring it during busy times.


I'm not sure McD has honoured it all at night recently, and even if they were, it still wouldn't address the major problem of the complete absence of late night toilets. We need pissoirs not posters!


----------



## shakespearegirl (Aug 22, 2018)

We need actual toilets as well as pissoirs. As a woman I wouldn’t feel comfortable using a pissoirs. I think a problem with the community toilet scheme is the need for toilets is most accute late at night by pissed people. Private companies are going to be reluctant to let them into their premises, especially when there is no financial return


----------



## Winot (Aug 22, 2018)

Need more regulation - venues simply need to add a unique radio-opaque marker to the drinks they sell. Piss can then be tested and venues fined per litre found on the street. The income can be used to fund public loos.


----------



## editor (Aug 22, 2018)

shakespearegirl said:


> We need actual toilets as well as pissoirs. As a woman I wouldn’t feel comfortable using a pissoirs. I


Well yes. I was just using pissoirs for alliterative effect!

Let me extend my sloganeering: 

Pissoirs no posters!
Proper toilets not pop ups!


----------



## shakespearegirl (Aug 22, 2018)

Strong sloganeering!!

Wouldn’t the Popes Road toilets be a logical one to open in the evenings? Very close to POP Brixton


----------



## editor (Aug 22, 2018)

shakespearegirl said:


> Strong sloganeering!!
> 
> Wouldn’t the Popes Road toilets be a logical one to open in the evenings? Very close to POP Brixton


I think the licensed premises on Pop Brixton, Market Row and Brixton Village should directly pay for late night toilets. The toilet facilities in the last two is almost non existent.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 22, 2018)

editor said:


> I think the licensed premises on Pop Brixton, Market Row and Brixton Village should directly pay for late night toilets. The toilet facilities in the last two is almost non existent.


i suspect that a large number of people having a piss in brixton late at night will have come through the tube or by bus and their full bladders won't have come from pop brixton etc. perhaps the council should fund late night toilets (and indeed daytime ones too), or the bid.


----------



## editor (Aug 22, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> i suspect that a large number of people having a piss in brixton late at night will have come through the tube or by bus and their full bladders won't have come from pop brixton etc. perhaps the council should fund late night toilets (and indeed daytime ones too), or the bid.


A lot will have also come from Pop Brixton etc as the residents of Electric Avenue will testify.


----------



## T & P (Aug 22, 2018)

They will have come from any and all of the local bars and night venues in Brixton. Not that residents would have a way to know at which specific venue the urinators had been, of course.


----------



## editor (Aug 22, 2018)

T & P said:


> They will have come from any and all of the local bars and night venues in Brixton. Not that residents would have a way to know at which specific venue the urinators had been, of course.


But long term residents will certainly have noticed the changes. Before Pop Brixton there was hardly any footfall (or indeed, pissfall), in that area.

Old school pubs and clubs have to provide toilets in their own premises. Brixton Village is stuffed full of places selling drink, but how many free toilets are in there?


----------



## aka (Aug 22, 2018)

Winot said:


> Need more regulation - venues simply need to add a unique radio-opaque marker to the drinks they sell. Piss can then be tested and venues fined per litre found on the street. The income can be used to fund public loos.


Ridiculous.  The only solution is DNA testing for 100% of the population, and then roving teams of 'piss tasters' who can then fine and imprison any street pissers.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 22, 2018)

aka said:


> Ridiculous.  The only solution is DNA testing for 100% of the population, and then roving teams of 'piss tasters' who can then fine and imprison any street pissers.


i think within hours they'd be known as 'piss takers'


----------



## alcopop (Aug 22, 2018)

aka said:


> Ridiculous.  The only solution is DNA testing for 100% of the population, and then roving teams of 'piss tasters' who can then fine and imprison any street pissers.


Ludicrous. All you need is complete coverage by HD Cctv cameras. Would be simple then to use a network of drones to deliver a non lethal electric shock to the offenders.


----------



## aka (Aug 22, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> i think within hours they'd be known as 'piss takers'


and *that* is why I am not in the Marketing Department.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 22, 2018)

alcopop said:


> Ludicrous. All you need is complete coverage by HD Cctv cameras. Would be simple then to use a network of drones to deliver a non lethal electric shock to the offenders.


why  non-lethal?


----------



## alcopop (Aug 22, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> why  non-lethal?


Non lethal for Brixton residents but lethal for out of town, middle class instagrammas?


----------



## editor (Aug 22, 2018)

alcopop said:


> Non lethal for Brixton residents but lethal for out of town, middle class instagrammas?


Why don't you go along to discobastard's  meeting and tell him all about your idea?


----------



## alcopop (Aug 24, 2018)

editor said:


> Why don't you go along to discobastard's  meeting and tell him all about your idea?


Because it was a joke


----------



## editor (Aug 24, 2018)

alcopop said:


> Because it was a joke


Pissing in people's doorways is no joke.


----------



## SpamMisery (Aug 24, 2018)

Walls that 'pee back' tackle people who urinate in public


----------



## alcopop (Aug 24, 2018)

editor said:


> Pissing in people's doorways is no joke.


I never said it was


----------



## BusLanes (Sep 24, 2018)

So apologies if this is too obvious, but how do BID board members get appointed? Who actually decides? Is there a vote by the levy payers?


----------



## discobastard (Sep 24, 2018)

BusLanes said:


> So apologies if this is too obvious, but how do BID board members get appointed? Who actually decides? Is there a vote by the levy payers?



Business Improvement Districts

ABOUT BRIXTON BID - Brixton BID

Understand they are set up by collective of local businesses applying for a grant to help with set up costs.  Board members likely to be the more vocal members of the business community, obviously not all businesses will be happy paying for the levy if they don't see any obvious benefits for themselves. I imagine this is not unusual, not all businesses will have time or inclination to get heavily involved.  Suspect many may also not respond to ballots or 

Notably two S&P employees on the Brixton board, but also good to see some of the longer established businesses on there as well (Satay Bar, Brixton Market Traders Federation, Kashmir Halal Butchers).


----------



## discobastard (Sep 24, 2018)

Brixton BID's latest publication, a research survey conducted by pupils from Elmgreen School in Tulse Hill (with support from Ipsos Mori, research company).  Not a huge sample size so would suggest it is not really robust at all (and you need a method for selecting people at random, i.e. every 5th person that walks past you as well as randomised physical sampling points).  But interesting nonetheless.

http://www.brixtonbid.co.uk/version...8/07/Brixton-BID-WeRise-Consumer-Research.pdf

Slides 28, 29 and 30 probably the most interesting in terms of what would improve Brixton.  Some reference to gentrification, more toilets and cleaner air.

Best comment in there: _'they need different culture shops like bubble tea'._


----------



## BusLanes (Sep 24, 2018)

discobastard said:


> Business Improvement Districts
> 
> ABOUT BRIXTON BID - Brixton BID
> 
> ...



Looks like there are two Labour councillors on that - as Kashmir's owner is a Ferndale councilor - although he's newly elected and I assume his BID membership long predates that


----------



## Gramsci (Sep 24, 2018)

BusLanes said:


> So apologies if this is too obvious, but how do BID board members get appointed? Who actually decides? Is there a vote by the levy payers?



Good question and I cannot find definite answer on the BID website.



> A Business Improvement District (BID) is a not-for-profit collective of local businesses who have come together to help improve their immediate area. There are currently over 60 BIDs in London, each of whom creates, develops and funds projects that benefit local business and the community.



This on the website is somewhat misleading. New Labour liked the BID concept which came from US. The Brixton BID was idea pushed by the Labour Council.

So its not collective of business who came together it was Council led.

I can't find a constitution for the "collective". Can anyone else? Maybe I've missed something.

I did find a Brixton BID private company.

BRIXTON BID LIMITED - Overview (free company information from Companies House)

Its not run as collective.


----------



## alex_ (Sep 25, 2018)

Gramsci said:


> Good question and I cannot find definite answer on the BID website.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Is it a company because they need to employ people and an llc is a better structure ?


----------



## discobastard (Sep 25, 2018)

Gramsci said:


> Good question and I cannot find definite answer on the BID website.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It is only Brixton BID that uses the term collective, it is not used in the gov.uk or Mayor's Office literature, so I suspect they are either willfully misrepresenting themselves (highly doubtful) or they are using the adjective collective rather than the noun collective (more likely).


----------



## ricbake (Sep 26, 2018)

BusLanes said:


> So apologies if this is too obvious, but how do BID board members get appointed? Who actually decides? Is there a vote by the levy payers?



*BID BOARD*
The board is entirely made up of Brixton business owners, who volunteer their time to improve the area from a business perspective. *Applications welcome*


----------



## ricbake (Sep 26, 2018)

There is some confusion about how many businesses they serve.
There are the Levy paying businesses which I though would be those entitled to vote
 Which looks like 667
but on twitter they say different


There maybe 155 too small to pay the Levy or with other criteria to exclude them but they seem to be affected and have no vote....


E2A
“BID Members” means those members of the Company who are non-domestic ratepayers responsible for paying the BID Levy and who were eligible to have voted in the ballot conducted by London Borough of Lambeth in respect of the BID;


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 26, 2018)

Gramsci said:


> Good question and I cannot find definite answer on the BID website.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


draft articles of association http://www.brixtonbid.co.uk/version...16/10/Brixton-BID_Articles-of-Association.pdf


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 26, 2018)

ricbake said:


> There is some confusion about how many businesses they serve.
> There are the Levy paying businesses which I though would be those entitled to vote
> Which looks like 667
> but on twitter they say different
> ...


page 3 of the articles of association 

so there is no business too small apparently


----------



## ricbake (Sep 26, 2018)

If your business premises is below a certain rateable value you don't pay the Levy - not sure if you still get to vote...


----------



## BusLanes (Sep 26, 2018)

All very interesting stuff thanks all.

Is anyone organising against renewal?


----------



## Gramsci (Sep 27, 2018)

discobastard said:


> It is only Brixton BID that uses the term collective, it is not used in the gov.uk or Mayor's Office literature, so I suspect they are either willfully misrepresenting themselves (highly doubtful) or they are using the adjective collective rather than the noun collective (more likely).



In my earlier post I was saying it was misleading as Brixton BID was something that the Labour led Council promoted for Brixton. Not a " collective" of business that asked for it.

Take this for example,




> The Brixton Business Improvement District (‘the BID’) was first established with support
> and facilitation from the council in November 2013 and is now coming to the end of its first
> five year term. During its first term, the BID has invested approximately £1,750,000 in Brixton



BIDs were part of Nu Labour project.

The money "invested" is the extra money extracted from local business on top of the business rates. To pay for things like policing and street cleaning which should already be covered by the business rates they pay.


----------



## Gramsci (Sep 27, 2018)

BusLanes said:


> All very interesting stuff thanks all.
> 
> Is anyone organising against renewal?



Problem is the whilst local business I know grumble about paying levy they aren't that welll organised.


----------



## Gramsci (Sep 27, 2018)

discobastard said:


> It is only Brixton BID that uses the term collective, it is not used in the gov.uk or Mayor's Office literature, so I suspect they are either willfully misrepresenting themselves (highly doubtful) or they are using the adjective collective rather than the noun collective (more likely).



They could have used the more neutral word group instead of collective.

Using the word collective has for me connotations of something that is voluntary.

BIDs aren't. A business can't leave a BID and then not pay the levy. In my mind a collective , in everyday modern usage, is something one can join and leave . Not the case with a BID.


----------



## editor (Sep 27, 2018)

Gramsci said:


> They could have used the more neutral word group instead of collective.
> 
> Using the word collective has for me connotations of something that is voluntary.
> 
> BIDs aren't. A business can't leave a BID and then not pay the levy. In my mind a collective , in everyday modern usage, is something one can join and leave . Not the case with a BID.


Calling themselves a "collective" is clearly misleading.


----------



## alex_ (Sep 27, 2018)

editor said:


> Calling themselves a "collective" is clearly misleading.



The dictionary disagrees

collective | Definition of collective in English by Oxford Dictionaries

“Done by people acting as a group”


----------



## editor (Sep 27, 2018)

alex_ said:


> The dictionary disagrees
> 
> collective | Definition of collective in English by Oxford Dictionaries
> 
> “Done by people acting as a group”


Actually, common sense disagrees. You don't take people to court when you're supposed to be working together.


----------



## Favelado (Sep 27, 2018)

editor said:


> Actually, common sense disagrees. You don't take people to court when you're supposed to be working together.



I love it when people pull out dictionary definitions. Context is everything when teaching vocabulary.


----------



## discobastard (Sep 27, 2018)

Gramsci said:


> They could have used the more neutral word group instead of collective.
> 
> Using the word collective has for me connotations of something that is voluntary.
> 
> BIDs aren't. A business can't leave a BID and then not pay the levy. In my mind a collective , in everyday modern usage, is something one can join and leave . Not the case with a BID.



That doesn't matter.  They could have used a different word, but they didn't and I doubt they tried to misrepresent themselves. 

I suspect most small businesses couldn't give a toss what it is called - nor are they as interested or well versed in political theory as you are (not a criticism).  It's just distraction.

But you are right that some of them are very unhappy about having to pay the levy and not feeling like they get much in return, as I know from personal acquaintances.  And that is what is important.  I doubt any them went into it thinking it was a cooperative enterprise and felt short changed.  In fact some of them won't even have bothered to read the letter that got sent to them and won't have voted in the first place.  Hence what then gets put in place is dictated by the minority.


----------



## snowy_again (Nov 1, 2018)

So they secured the BID contract.

"Some 302 of 513 eligible businesses, a turnout of 59%, voted by 228 to 56, with 18 spoilt ballot papers, to renew."

http://www.brixtonbid.co.uk/version2/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/BB-Booklet-Complete-01-V2.pdf


----------



## 8ball (Nov 1, 2018)

I wonder what a spoilt ballot means in this context.  Maybe "we don't mind the idea of a BID but we don't want this one"?


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 1, 2018)

It's a bad bid, bud


----------



## snowy_again (Nov 1, 2018)

8ball said:


> I wonder what a spoilt ballot means in this context.  Maybe "we don't mind the idea of a BID but we don't want this one"?


Or just 'no to BIDs'?


----------



## 8ball (Nov 1, 2018)

snowy_again said:


> Or just 'no to BIDs'?



I think if you vote against continuing the BID (or not enough people vote in favour) it gets dissolved (which is what happened where I live).  
So I would have thought the spoils might mean something different.


----------



## editor (Nov 1, 2018)

I see Squire & Partners have no less than two people on the board of 20 - the only company to have such representation.


----------



## aka (Nov 1, 2018)

editor said:


> I see Squire & Partners have no less than two people on the board of 20 - the only company to have such representation.


10% of the vote? Wake me up when they get to over 25%. Well done BID, good luck with it. I’d much rather LBL did all the stuff BID do, but the fact is LBL don’t, so BID it is.


----------



## alex_ (Nov 2, 2018)

editor said:


> I see Squire & Partners have no less than two people on the board of 20 - the only company to have such representation.



From the articles of association

The board shall consist of not more than:
5 directors from BID members from large businesses
7 directors from BID members from medium businesses
7 directors from BID members from small businesses
1 director as a landowner
1 director from London Borough of Lambeth, elected member 1 director from the Brixton Markets Federation
1 director as a markets representative

http://www.brixtonbid.co.uk/version...16/10/Brixton-BID_Articles-of-Association.pdf

There are only ten directors in total, two are from the markets or council that means only 8 of the 19 “business” slots are filled. Without knowing the definitions of large medium small, id guess that McDonald’s and squires are large ( though McDonald’s could be small medium if it is a franchise ). So i suspect there are free slots in every category.

So in order to be on the board all these guys have done is volunteered.

You imply this is some form of stitch up, but really it just looks like people from squires stepping up to help run Brixton Bid.

Alex


----------



## Winot (Nov 2, 2018)

It’s good to see Squires getting involved with the local community.


----------



## alex_ (Nov 2, 2018)

Winot said:


> It’s good to see Squires getting involved with the local community.



Just imagine the outrage if they’d not....

Similar to the outrage of “too much” i suspect.

Alex


----------



## editor (Nov 2, 2018)

Winot said:


> It’s good to see Squires getting involved with the local community.


_Business_ community. HTH. They're still excluding the 'ordinary' community from their elitist, exclusive rooftop bar and gardens.


alex_ said:


> Just imagine the outrage if they’d not....
> 
> Similar to the outrage of “too much” i suspect.


I can't imagine any 'outrage' being generated either way, so I've no idea what you're going on about here.


----------



## editor (Nov 2, 2018)

alex_ said:


> You imply this is some form of stitch up...


Again, that is all in your mind. Please stop making things up. Thank you.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 2, 2018)

alex_ said:


> You imply this is some form of stitch up, but really it just looks like people from squires stepping up to help run Brixton Bid.
> 
> Alex


there are none so blind as those that will not see


----------



## alcopop (Nov 2, 2018)

Winot said:


> It’s good to see Squires getting involved with the local community.


Dammed if they do and dammed if they don’t.


----------



## alex_ (Nov 2, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> there are none so blind as those that will not see



There are at least 10 places left on the Brixton bid board


----------



## alex_ (Nov 2, 2018)

editor said:


> _Business_ community. HTH. They're still excluding the 'ordinary' community from their elitist, exclusive rooftop bar and gardens



They’ve created something, I couldn’t go there before ( because it didn’t exist ), I can’t go there now.

My life is ruined.


----------



## editor (Nov 2, 2018)

alex_ said:


> They’ve created something, I couldn’t go there before ( because it didn’t exist ), I can’t go there now.
> 
> My life is ruined.


Except it's not about you. It's about the community. Creating new elitist, unaffordable spaces causes division and underlines social inequality. If that doesn't bother you, jog on.


----------



## 8ball (Nov 2, 2018)

editor said:


> Except it's not about you. It's about the community. Creating new elitist, unaffordable spaces causes division and underlines social inequality. If that doesn't bother you, jog on.



I’m a bit confused about what this is tbf.  Just found a roof garden at an architect’s practice.  Is that what you’re talking about?


----------



## editor (Nov 2, 2018)

8ball said:


> I’m a bit confused about what this is tbf.  Just found a roof garden at an architect’s practice.  Is that what you’re talking about?


If you're late to this discussion - which has taken place for some considerable time on another thread here - forgive me if I can't be arsed to restate it all over again.


----------



## 8ball (Nov 2, 2018)

editor said:


> If you're late to this discussion - which has taken place for some considerable time on another thread here - forgive me if I can't be arsed to restate it all over again.



Guess it must be something complex, then.  Otherwise you've just spent longer spluttering than it would have taken to answer the question.


----------



## editor (Nov 2, 2018)

8ball said:


> Guess it must be something complex, then.  Otherwise you've just spent longer spluttering than it would have taken to answer the question.


Please stop acting like a dick and read the posts if you're that interested rather than whining at me. Thanks.


----------



## 8ball (Nov 2, 2018)

editor said:


> Please stop acting like a dick and read the posts if you're that interested rather than whining at me. Thanks.


----------



## editor (Nov 2, 2018)

8ball said:


>


Why are you so determined to disrupt this thread with nonsense?


----------



## 8ball (Nov 2, 2018)

editor said:


> Why are you so determined to disrupt this thread with nonsense?



I think I'm a little late to that party.


----------



## alex_ (Nov 2, 2018)

8ball said:


> I’m a bit confused about what this is tbf.  Just found a roof garden at an architect’s practice.  Is that what you’re talking about?



Basically - a fancy architecture practice have beautifully renovated a knackered but significant building in Brixton.

Editor is angry because the previously private building, which has been privately done up at great expense isn’t open to the public.

Bringing this back on track Editor is also angry that two people who work for squires are on the board of Brixton BID.

Alex


----------



## 8ball (Nov 2, 2018)

Was it a previously-beloved-but-kinda-scuzzy-boozer which has been snapped up by moneyed bigwigs who have turned it into a private members’ club?

I could understand people feeling aggrieved if that were the case.  Something similar happened in my area a while back.


----------



## editor (Nov 2, 2018)

alex_ said:


> Basically - a fancy architecture practice have beautifully renovated a knackered but significant building in Brixton.
> 
> Editor is angry because the previously private building, which has been privately done up at great expense isn’t open to the public.
> 
> ...


I'm not "angry" about anything, so kindly shut the fuck up with your constant inflammatory misrepresentations.


----------



## alcopop (Nov 2, 2018)

8ball said:


> Was it a previously-beloved-but-kinda-scuzzy-boozer which has been snapped up by moneyed bigwigs who have turned it into a private members’ club?
> 
> I could understand people feeling aggrieved if that were the case.  Something similar happened in my area a while back.


No it wasn’t. It wasn’t anything really until they renovated it.


----------



## SpamMisery (Nov 2, 2018)

It was a long time rundown shell on a tatty street badly in need of some love


----------



## Gramsci (Nov 3, 2018)

8ball said:


> Was it a previously-beloved-but-kinda-scuzzy-boozer which has been snapped up by moneyed bigwigs who have turned it into a private members’ club?
> 
> I could understand people feeling aggrieved if that were the case.  Something similar happened in my area a while back.



It was that Squires, when first opened the building, were promising ( and I heard Squires junior saying this,) that the building would be available to community. The roof space for instance. Now you have to pay to be member.

The early pronouncements by Squires were PR fluff. They knew coming here would be potentially controversial.

Squires were heavily involved in design of "regeneration" of Kings Cross.They had offices in Kings Cross. The end result was that they wanted to move to Brixton. As it had more sense of community. Which Kings Cross lacked after there  years of designing a new community at Kings Cross.


----------



## alcopop (Nov 3, 2018)

Gramsci said:


> The early pronouncements by Squires were PR fluff. They knew coming here would be potentially controversial.



They are not even slightly controversial, apart from about 3 people on urban who have taken exception to them.


----------



## TruXta (Nov 3, 2018)

alcopop said:


> They are not even slightly controversial, apart from about 3 people on urban who have taken exception to them.


Funny how you complain about other posters speaking for the community when you pretend to do exactly the same.


----------



## editor (Nov 3, 2018)

Gramsci said:


> It was that Squires, when first opened the building, were promising ( and I heard Squires junior saying this,) that the building would be available to community. The roof space for instance. Now you have to pay to be member.
> 
> The early pronouncements by Squires were PR fluff. They knew coming here would be potentially controversial.
> 
> Squires were heavily involved in design of "regeneration" of Kings Cross.They had offices in Kings Cross. The end result was that they wanted to move to Brixton. As it had more sense of community. Which Kings Cross lacked after there  years of designing a new community at Kings Cross.


They managed their PR expertly, just like they way they essentially bribed Pure Vinyl into their buildings so they looked more inclusive.

And once the job was done, the free community spaces vanishes and the rooftop bar becomes elitist and exclusive. Just for them and their pals.


----------



## snowy_again (Nov 3, 2018)

editor said:


> They managed their PR expertly, just like they way they essentially bribed Pure Vinyl into their buildings so they looked more inclusive.
> 
> And once the job was done, the free community spaces vanishes and the rooftop bar becomes elitist and exclusive. Just for them and their pals.


----------



## editor (Nov 3, 2018)

Buzz piece: Less than half of Brixton businesses vote in favour of another five years of the Business Improvement District


----------



## Southlondon (Nov 4, 2018)

editor said:


> Buzz piece: Less than half of Brixton businesses vote in favour of another five years of the Business Improvement District


But the overwhelming majority who voted supported the BID. Only a handful voted against it. It’s not a ‘tax’ it’s a levy that businesses have opted to pay. They then choose how to spend it, as opposed to the business rates which are public funds. In Vauxhall we get urinals, enhanced pavement cleaning, open air cinema in the summer, we’ve had an ice rink at Xmas, and plenty of other initiatives that benefit the businesses and us locals. I don’t understand why you Brixton bods are so against it. If businesses were not in favour more would have voted against. It’s a brilliant initiative that seems to work well. Of course if at some point it is no longer deemed successful the businesses can vote to end it at the next vote. The landslide result in favour of the BID shows his popular the idea is amongst the businesses. 
I appreciate the Brixton Buzz is instinctively against anything connected to Lambeth Council, but speaking as a resident in a BID area, I think they’re a good idea


----------



## Mr Retro (Nov 4, 2018)

Using the Buzz figures 75% in favour. It must be doing some good


----------



## Southlondon (Nov 4, 2018)

Mr Retro said:


> Using the Buzz figures 75% in favour. It must be doing some good


Exactly. The way the Buzz reports it, you’d assume it was a close vote. And voter turnout is as good or better that most by-elections. It’s a very dishonest  way to report. Worthy of a Murdoch jurno


----------



## editor (Nov 4, 2018)

Southlondon said:


> Exactly. The way the Buzz reports it, you’d assume it was a close vote. And voter turnout is as good or better that most by-elections. It’s a very dishonest  way to report. Worthy of a Murdoch jurno


You think comparing it to an by-election is a valid comparison? The real question is why hasn't the BID engaged more businesses? 

And you may think it's a great idea but there's plenty who don't, including the 141 traders who got taken to court as a result. 

And yes, I'm against the idea of the BID on principal. But - hey! - at least they fixed the pissing in the street problem. With a poster.


----------



## TruXta (Nov 4, 2018)

editor said:


> You think comparing it to an by-election is a valid comparison? The real question is why hasn't the BID engaged more businesses?
> 
> And you may think it's a great idea but there's plenty who don't, including the 141 traders who got taken to court as a result.
> 
> And yes, I'm against the idea of the BID on principal. But - hey! - at least they fixed the pissing in the street problem. With a poster.


Still a poor way to report it.


----------



## editor (Nov 4, 2018)

TruXta said:


> Still a poor way to report it.


Compared to the relentless spin that the BID have been generating, I'd say it's a decent counter point. 

Are you for the Blairite BIDs in principle, btw? 

Business Improvement Districts: Local firms charged with funding BIDs


----------



## Southlondon (Nov 4, 2018)

editor said:


> You think comparing it to an by-election is a valid comparison? The real question is why hasn't the BID engaged more businesses?
> 
> And you may think it's a great idea but there's plenty who don't, including the 141 traders who got taken to court as a result.
> 
> And yes, I'm against the idea of the BID on principal. But - hey! - at least they fixed the pissing in the street problem. With a poster.


Maybe the 141 businesses that were taken to court just don’t like paying their dues as opposed to no t liking the   BID. If they were against it they could have easily voted it down. Your night time economy has been expanding in Brixton so that would be a good issue to work with the BID on to spend this additional pot of money. That’s one of the priorities for spending in Vauxhall.


----------



## editor (Nov 4, 2018)

Southlondon said:


> Maybe the 141 businesses that were taken to court just don’t like paying their dues as opposed to no t liking the   BID. If they were against it they could have easily voted it down. Your night time economy has been expanding in Brixton so that would be a good issue to work with the BID on to spend this additional pot of money. That’s one of the priorities for spending in Vauxhall.


They shouldn't have to pay extra for the services that Lambeth should be providing in the first place.


----------



## Southlondon (Nov 4, 2018)

editor said:


> Compared to the relentless spin that the BID have been generating, I'd say it's a decent counter point.
> 
> Are you for the Blairite BIDs in principle, btw?
> 
> Business Improvement Districts: Local firms charged with funding BIDs


It’s got fuck all to do with Blair. I think it’s healthy for local businesses ( over a certain size)  to pay a bit towards mitigating against the impact they have on the local community, at the same time working towards improving the local environment to enhance trading conditions. Try working with the BID , and then decide if it works or not


----------



## editor (Nov 4, 2018)

Southlondon said:


> It’s got fuck all to do with Blair.


it was his idea, actually. 


Southlondon said:


> Try working with the BID , and then decide if it works or not


I'm not a business feeding them money so I can not work with them, even if I wanted to.


----------



## alex_ (Nov 4, 2018)

editor said:


> They shouldn't have to pay extra for the services that Lambeth should be providing in the first place.



What should Lambeth do less of instead ?

Perhaps they should take money away from social services or kids so that businesses in Brixton don’t have to pay to clean up their own mess.

Alex


----------



## Southlondon (Nov 4, 2018)

editor said:


> They shouldn't have to pay extra for the services that Lambeth should be providing in the first place.


Lambeth, as you are fully aware, had had a cut of 50% in funding. A lot of things that the businesses might want money spent on to benefit their needs, are not priorities in this age of Tory/libdem imposed austerity when compared to the needs of children’s services, community care, street cleaning etc. The money businesses vote to pay is for spending on their identified priorities which are in addition to core council services


----------



## Southlondon (Nov 4, 2018)

editor said:


> it was his idea, actually.
> I'm not a business feeding them money so I can not work with them, even if I wanted to.


You will have plenty of opportunities to engaywitg then if you choose to I’m sure


----------



## TruXta (Nov 4, 2018)

editor said:


> Compared to the relentless spin that the BID have been generating, I'd say it's a decent counter point.
> 
> Are you for the Blairite BIDs in principle, btw?
> 
> Business Improvement Districts: Local firms charged with funding BIDs


Two wrongs don't make a right, as you well know. Besides, reporting it like that makes it that much easier for supporters to dismiss the more substantial criticisms of the BID.

I'm not a fan of BIDS no.


----------



## editor (Nov 4, 2018)

Southlondon said:


> You will have plenty of opportunities to engaywitg then if you choose to I’m sure


Seeing as they are - by definition - a closed shop to non-paying outsiders - any attempt at engagement would have to come from them.


----------



## Mr Retro (Nov 4, 2018)

editor said:


> Compared to the relentless spin that the BID have been generating, I'd say it's a decent counter point.


No it isn’t. Bad reporting is bad reporting.


----------



## editor (Nov 4, 2018)

Southlondon said:


> Lambeth, as you are fully aware, had had a cut of 50% in funding. A lot of things that the businesses might want money spent on to benefit their needs, are not priorities in this age of Tory/libdem imposed austerity when compared to the needs of children’s services, community care, street cleaning etc. The money businesses vote to pay is for spending on their identified priorities which are in addition to core council services


Trouble is that the small businesses that are forced to pay this tax rarely find that their needs come very highly in BIDs priorities. 

The BID, for example, offered precisely nothing of value to some of the small traders in the arches, and one was so incensed at being compelled to pay this unwanted tax, he considered paying it in pennies, encased in ice. That's how fucked off he was.


----------



## editor (Nov 4, 2018)

Mr Retro said:


> No it isn’t. Bad reporting is bad reporting.


I'll be sure to pass on your vital criticism. How come you've never challenged the council's or the BID's spin and bullshit here recently?


----------



## aka (Nov 4, 2018)

editor said:


> it was his idea, actually.


 Well sort of.  A think tank member or SPAD suggested to the government of the day (led by Blair) that it might be good to have a similar initiative that has already been working pretty well in Canada and the USA.  Blair championed it for sure, but didn't invent the concept.


----------



## alex_ (Nov 4, 2018)

editor said:


> Trouble is that the small businesses that are forced to pay this tax rarely find that their needs come very highly in BIDs priorities.
> 
> The BID, for example, offered precisely nothing of value to some of the small traders in the arches, and one was so incensed at being compelled to pay this unwanted tax, he considered paying it in pennies, encased in ice. That's how fucked off he was.



More policing, and a cleaner Brixton benefits pretty much all traders in Brixton.

Alex


----------



## editor (Nov 4, 2018)

alex_ said:


> More policing, and a cleaner Brixton benefits pretty much all traders in Brixton.
> 
> Alex


So you think extra policing should be paid for by the BID and employed where they see fit?


----------



## alex_ (Nov 4, 2018)

editor said:


> So you think extra policing should be paid for by the BID and employed where they see fit?



No, it should be paid for centrally.

But if the BID do pay for policing they should be deployed where the BID sees fit.

Alex


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 4, 2018)

alex_ said:


> More policing, and a cleaner Brixton benefits pretty much all traders in Brixton.
> 
> Alex


Swamp '19, sounds a good idea


----------



## Gramsci (Nov 4, 2018)

Southlondon said:


> Lambeth, as you are fully aware, had had a cut of 50% in funding. A lot of things that the businesses might want money spent on to benefit their needs, are not priorities in this age of Tory/libdem imposed austerity when compared to the needs of children’s services, community care, street cleaning etc. The money businesses vote to pay is for spending on their identified priorities which are in addition to core council services



Im not clear what you are saying here. 

Are you saying that all BID levy goes to services additional to the Council or that BID is plugging the gap due to cuts in non statutory Council services?

When I say all BID levy I mean money left after paying for the BID bureaucracy.


----------



## Gramsci (Nov 4, 2018)

alex_ said:


> But if the BID do pay for policing they should be deployed where the BID sees fit.
> 
> Alex



This is one of the dangers of a BID.

The Police are a public/ state institution. They aren't supposed to be for hire like private security guards.

So no I don't think that police should be deployed as BID see fit.

Its a move to semi privatisation of policing.


----------



## Gramsci (Nov 4, 2018)

alex_ said:


> More policing, and a cleaner Brixton benefits pretty much all traders in Brixton.
> 
> Alex



Street cleaning should be done to good standard whether a BID exists or not. If the BID had been voted out do you think streets should be left dirty?

Imo street cleaning is core Council service.


----------



## Gramsci (Nov 4, 2018)

Southlondon said:


> You will have plenty of opportunities to engaywitg then if you choose to I’m sure



How?

I used to live by the market. Now I am short walk from Brixton. I'm a private individual not a business owner.

This is another issue I have with BID concept.

Ive seen BID at local meetings. They aren't there to represent local residents. To be fair its not there remit. At least with Council I can vote them out. I have no say in a BID. Its not how BIDs are set. 

The Brixton BID has been looking at street improvements. I'm not happy with this. Changes to public space should be led by the Council. They are the elected public body.

The Council should consult residents and business. It should be done through them.

What I have seen with Brixton BID is blurring of responsibilities. At times BID has come across to me as extension of the Council. This isn't democratic.


----------



## alex_ (Nov 4, 2018)

Gramsci said:


> Street cleaning should be done to good standard whether a BID exists or not. If the BID had been voted out do you think streets should be left dirty?



No, but I’m sure that they would have been.

The Brixton nighttime economy needs to wipe its own arse, local residents shouldn’t pay to cleanup after it.

It sounds like you are arguing in favour of public subsidy of private businesses.

Do you think that football clubs should pay for the policing of their events ?

Alex


----------



## Southlondon (Nov 4, 2018)

Gramsci said:


> This is one of the dangers of a BID.
> 
> The Police are a public/ state institution. They aren't supposed to be for hire like private security guards.
> 
> ...


Rubbish. It’s additional policing services paid for by local businesses, which is a welcome addition when police service has suffered in excess of 20% cuts thanks to Tory/LibDem austerity. They will be working on BID priorities in the BID district but are still metropolitan police officers, not a private police force


----------



## alcopop (Nov 4, 2018)

Southlondon said:


> Exactly. The way the Buzz reports it, you’d assume it was a close vote. And voter turnout is as good or better that most by-elections. It’s a very dishonest  way to report. Worthy of a Murdoch jurno


Shoddy journalism, very shoddy.


----------



## Gramsci (Nov 4, 2018)

Southlondon said:


> Rubbish. It’s additional policing services paid for by local businesses, which is a welcome addition when police service has suffered in excess of 20% cuts thanks to Tory/LibDem austerity. They will be working on BID priorities in the BID district but are still metropolitan police officers, not a private police force



You have just confirmed my point. They will be working on BID priorities is what you say. 

Also you are saying that this levy is being used to fill the gaps due to politically driven austerity cuts. BID levy should not be used to fill funding gaps in another public service. Business sre already paying for these services through business rates and taxes.


----------



## Southlondon (Nov 4, 2018)

editor said:


> Trouble is that the small businesses that are forced to pay this tax rarely find that their needs come very highly in BIDs priorities.
> 
> The BID, for example, offered precisely nothing of value to some of the small traders in the arches, and one was so incensed at being compelled to pay this unwanted tax, he considered paying it in pennies, encased in ice. That's how fucked off he was.


I would suggest that some of the small businesses you refer to, paying 1.5% of their rateable  value to ensure a cleaner safer trading environment might turn out to be good value for money. The lions share of the BID income is raised from the largest businesses, which is how it should be. I’m aware of small businesses that were vocally opposed to the Vauxhall BID, but who now find it a success and value for money. You should look talk to some residents in other BID areas - I think it’s a good initiative based on my personal experience


----------



## DietCokeGirl (Nov 4, 2018)

BID funding goes towards the SIA security on pub and club doors (at the insistance of Lambeth licencing). I can understand why retail business feel short changed paying their levy when this is the most visible use of BID money.


----------



## DietCokeGirl (Nov 4, 2018)

Also, street cleaning/refuse collection is covered by business rates, as I understand.


----------



## Gramsci (Nov 4, 2018)

alex_ said:


> No, but I’m sure that they would have been.
> 
> The Brixton nighttime economy needs to wipe its own arse, local residents shouldn’t pay to cleanup after it.
> 
> ...



Street cleaning is a core service of the Council. My point is that BID or no BID in Brixton it should be done to good standard


----------



## Southlondon (Nov 4, 2018)

editor said:


> They shouldn't have to pay extra for the services that Lambeth should be providing in the first place.


I know it’s tedious to keep repeating this, but Tory/LibDem austerity has cut funding to our Borough by 50% etc etc ...


----------



## alex_ (Nov 4, 2018)

Southlondon said:


> I know it’s tedious to keep repeating this, but Tory/LibDem austerity has cut funding to our Borough by 50% etc etc ...



But, but, but this is the blairite Brixton bids fault.


----------



## Gramsci (Nov 4, 2018)

editor said:


> Buzz piece: Less than half of Brixton businesses vote in favour of another five years of the Business Improvement District



Given the usual kicking that Buzz gets here read this

Gives all the figures for the vote. Plus gives figures for the administration charges and saleries of Brixton BID. Which I didn't know. As well as number of court actions for non payment.

Given that Brixton BID have regular two page spread in Brixton Bugle to promote positive side of BID I think for purposes of local media balance its fair enough for another local media outlet to take less positive view.


----------



## alex_ (Nov 4, 2018)

Gramsci said:


> Given the usual kicking that Buzz gets here read this
> 
> Gives all the figures for the vote. Plus gives figures for the administration charges and saleries of Brixton BID. Which I didn't know. As well as number of court actions for non payment.
> 
> Given that Brixton BID have regular two page spread in Brixton Bugle to promote positive side of BID I think for purposes of local media balance its fair enough for another local media outlet to take less positive view.



Are the revenue numbers over five years or annual ?

Alex


----------



## Gramsci (Nov 4, 2018)

Southlondon said:


> I know it’s tedious to keep repeating this, but Tory/LibDem austerity has cut funding to our Borough by 50% etc etc ...



Previously you said this:




> The money businesses vote to pay is for spending on their identified priorities which are in addition to core council services




I covered this in previous post 580


----------



## Southlondon (Nov 4, 2018)

Gramsci said:


> Given the usual kicking that Buzz gets here read this
> 
> Gives all the figures for the vote. Plus gives figures for the administration charges and saleries of Brixton BID. Which I didn't know. As well as number of court actions for non payment.
> 
> Given that Brixton BID have regular two page spread in Brixton Bugle to promote positive side of BID I think for purposes of local media balance its fair enough for another local media outlet to take less positive view.


It was a ridiculously biased way to report on the outcome of a vote. The simple message is - the vast majority of the voters backed the BID. I’m sure most people will see it for the one sided propaganda piece it is. I appreciate some people are incredibly conservative in Brixton and instinctively oppose any change from whatever quarter it comes, but the majority of businesses voted to invest money on improving their trading environment, and I’m confident based on my experience in Vauxhall, local residents will benefit from this


----------



## Gramsci (Nov 4, 2018)

alex_ said:


> Are the revenue numbers over five years or annual ?
> 
> Alex



You read the Buzz article. I didn't write it.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 4, 2018)

alex_ said:


> Are the revenue numbers over five years or annual ?
> 
> Alex


Yes


----------



## Gramsci (Nov 4, 2018)

Southlondon said:


> It was a ridiculously biased way to report on the outcome of a vote. The simple message is - the vast majority of the voters backed the BID. I’m sure most people will see it for the one sided propaganda piece it is. I appreciate some people are incredibly conservative in Brixton and instinctively oppose any change from whatever quarter it comes, but the majority of businesses voted to invest money on improving their trading environment, and I’m confident based on my experience in Vauxhall, local residents will benefit from this



Not the point I was making.

So you are now speakiing on behalf of "most people".


----------



## Southlondon (Nov 4, 2018)

editor said:


> Trouble is that the small businesses that are forced to pay this tax rarely find that their needs come very highly in BIDs priorities.
> 
> The BID, for example, offered precisely nothing of value to some of the small traders in the arches, and one was so incensed at being compelled to pay this unwanted tax, he considered paying it in pennies, encased in ice. That's how fucked off he was.


But it’s begs the question, if the BID is so bad for the more numerous small businesses, why didn’t more of them bother to register their dissatisfaction by voting against it when they had the well publicised opportunity?


----------



## Southlondon (Nov 4, 2018)

Gramsci said:


> Not the point I was making.
> 
> So you are now speakiing on behalf of "most people".


Don’t be silly


----------



## editor (Nov 4, 2018)

Southlondon said:


> But it’s begs the question, if the BID is so bad for the more numerous small businesses, why didn’t more of them bother to register their dissatisfaction by voting against it when they had the well publicised opportunity?


You really can't think of any reason why struggling, over-worked small businesses may not be able to place the BID stuff as a priority? From my experience of talking to small readers, quite a few still don't even understand the concept or the need and they don't have the time to start working it all out.


----------



## Gramsci (Nov 4, 2018)

Southlondon said:


> Don’t be silly



I'm not. Its what you say in your post. Go back and read it again.


----------



## editor (Nov 4, 2018)

Southlondon said:


> I know it’s tedious to keep repeating this, but Tory/LibDem austerity has cut funding to our Borough by 50% etc etc ...


What do you think of the self promoting banners the BID stuck all over town? Look like a good use of traders' money to you? How about those posters telling people to have a piss after they've been enjoying the much-pushed boozy night economy?


----------



## Gramsci (Nov 4, 2018)

Southlondon said:


> Don’t be silly



So far you've said I'm talking rubbish and being silly but you haven't engaged with issues I've brought up.


----------



## editor (Nov 4, 2018)

alex_ said:


> No, it should be paid for centrally.
> 
> But if the BID do pay for policing they should be deployed where the BID sees fit.
> 
> Alex


You don't see any potential pitfalls to an undemocratic few deciding where some police resources are allocated in your area?


----------



## editor (Nov 4, 2018)

Southlondon said:


> It was a ridiculously biased way to report on the outcome of a vote. The simple message is - the vast majority of the voters backed the BID.


But NOT the majority of businesses. In the face of relentless propaganda for the BID - including the paid for glowing PR masquerading as journalism in the Bugle - I'd say its fucking vital that the hard facts are made public, and if it takes a tabloid-style approach to make people aware, that's fine by me.


----------



## alex_ (Nov 4, 2018)

Southlondon said:


> But it’s begs the question, if the BID is so bad for the more numerous small businesses, why didn’t more of them bother to register their dissatisfaction by voting against it when they had the well publicised opportunity?



10.9% of businesses voted against.

Alex


----------



## alex_ (Nov 4, 2018)

editor said:


> You don't see any potential pitfalls to an undemocratic few deciding where some police resources are allocated in your area?



They are deciding where the police resources they pay for are allocated.

This might displace street crime to places where there are less police.

Alex


----------



## editor (Nov 4, 2018)

alex_ said:


> They are deciding where the police resources they pay for are allocated.
> 
> This might displace street crime to places where there are less police.
> 
> Alex


So that is in effect a private police force, whose employment is not decided by the pubic, or by public need, but by the needs of the businesses who have most influence on the BID board. And you support this, right?


----------



## alex_ (Nov 4, 2018)

editor said:


> What do you think of the self promoting banners the BID stuck all over town? Look like a good use of traders' money to you? How about those posters telling people to have a piss after they've been enjoying the much-pushed boozy night economy?



I’d be interested to know if the don’t piss in the street posters make a difference, id imagine they were very cheap compared to more toilets.


----------



## editor (Nov 4, 2018)

alex_ said:


> I’d be interested to know if the don’t piss in the street posters make a difference, id imagine they were very cheap compared to more toilets.


What do you think? I'd say they made just about zero difference and were as useful as their pointless self-promoting banners.


----------



## alex_ (Nov 4, 2018)

editor said:


> So that is in effect a private police force, whose employment is not decided by the pubic, or by public need, but by the needs of the businesses who have most influence on the BID board. And you support this, right?



Hilarious. I’m pretty sure they are members of the met, so are in no way shape or form a private police force.

Brixton BID have created some roles in the met, which are focused on the centre of Brixton. These will have replaced some of the hundreds of police roles in London cut in the last 5-10 years.

How is this undemocratic ?

Alex


----------



## alex_ (Nov 4, 2018)

editor said:


> What do you think? I'd say they made just about zero difference and were as useful as their pointless self-promoting banners.



I think I’d I’d like to see some data, re arrests or complaints from residents.

I’d imagine they made some difference, if I saw a poster on the way out of the pub saying “no toilets between here and the tube” I’d probably nip to the bog. 

Alex


----------



## editor (Nov 4, 2018)

alex_ said:


> How is this undemocratic ?


Can the public exert any influence over where these police are allocated YES/NO?

There's your answer.


----------



## editor (Nov 4, 2018)

alex_ said:


> I think I’d I’d like to see some data, re arrests or complaints from residents.
> 
> I’d imagine they made some difference, if I saw a poster on the way out of the pub saying “no toilets between here and the tube” I’d probably nip to the bog.


I'm out late in Brixton very, very often and I've seen absolutely no improvement. In fact, I've hardly even seen any of those posters either. People don't need posters. They need toilets.


----------



## alex_ (Nov 4, 2018)

editor said:


> Can the public exert any influence over where these police are allocated YES/NO?
> 
> There's your answer.



They can call 999 and report a crime in central Brixton.

I don’t see any issue with businesses paying for police and saying we want them to patrol the area we are in. It frees up other police to work elsewhere.

Alex


----------



## editor (Nov 4, 2018)

Here's some of the very valid criticisms levied against BIDs: 



> BIDs have been accused of being by their very nature undemocratic, and that they concentrate power in a geographic area into the hands of the few.[15] Small businesses who fall below the BID levy threshold, although not liable to pay the BID levy, are often priced out of an area because BIDs tend to increase rental values. Larger businesses are more able to absorb these rent increases, particularly the multiple stores.
> 
> Business improvement district - Wikipedia





> Bid companies remove the democratic principles of public community and transfer urban governance to the hands of an unelected elite motivated purely by business profit.
> Log in to Facebook | Facebook


----------



## DietCokeGirl (Nov 4, 2018)

alex_ said:


> 10.9% of businesses voted against.
> 
> Alex


Not exactly accurate, only 59%of eligable buissnesses returned their ballot. I'dbe interesting to know more about why there was such a low number to votes returned.


----------



## Gramsci (Nov 4, 2018)

alex_ said:


> I don’t see any issue with businesses paying for police and saying we want them to patrol the area we are in.
> 
> Alex



That is semi privatisation. 

Ive covered this in previous posts.

Police are state/ public body. There to serve the public. 

As you said previously



> But if the BID do pay for policing they should be deployed where the BID sees fit.



This isn't how policing is supposed to work.


----------



## alex_ (Nov 4, 2018)

editor said:


> Here's some of the very valid criticisms levied against BIDs:



These are all valid criticisms, but until we have a central government which decides to fund councils properly. BIDs seem like a reasonable policy.

You could ensure that smaller businesses none paying business were represented, by letting them be members for free.

Alex


----------



## Gramsci (Nov 4, 2018)

I'm still not clear what the pro BID argument here is.

That it does good works for area that are in addition to publicly run services like street cleaning or policing or that its good idea because government "austerity" cuts mean an extra tax on business means cut services can be propped up.


----------



## alex_ (Nov 4, 2018)

Gramsci said:


> I'm still not clear what the pro BID argument here is.
> 
> That it does good works for area or that are in addition to publicly run services like street cleaning or policing or that its good idea because government "austerity" cuts mean an extra tax on business means cut services can be propped up.



BIDs let districts collectively decide to raise additional funding to pay for improvements which benefit their businesses.

Many of these services are services which have been cut back under austerity.

It also means that some costs of businesses can be transferred back to those businesses which otherwise would be paid for by all rate payers.

Alex


----------



## Gramsci (Nov 4, 2018)

alex_ said:


> These are all valid criticisms, but until we have a central government which decides to fund councils properly. BIDs seem like a reasonable policy.
> 
> Alex



So this is extra tax on business to fund services they used to get anyway before they were cut in politically driven "austerity" cuts.


----------



## Gramsci (Nov 4, 2018)

alex_ said:


> BIDs let districts collectively decide to raise additional funding pay for improvements which benefit their businesses



See your post 662.


----------



## editor (Nov 4, 2018)

alex_ said:


> You could ensure that smaller businesses none paying business were represented, by letting them be members for free.


But that doesn't happen to smaller businesses have no representation or influence, while bigger businesses do. And the biggest sometimes end up with more people on the board than others...


----------



## alex_ (Nov 4, 2018)

editor said:


> But that doesn't happen to smaller businesses have no representation or influence, while bigger businesses do. And the biggest sometimes end up with more people on the board than others...



Which isn’t outlawed in the articles of association, but is a natural function of larger companies having more potential candidates.

Alex


----------



## alex_ (Nov 4, 2018)

Gramsci said:


> So this is extra tax on business to fund services they used to get anyway before they were cut in politically driven "austerity" cuts.



I don’t think anyone is disputing this - this is 100% correct.


----------



## alex_ (Nov 4, 2018)

DietCokeGirl said:


> Not exactly accurate, only 59%of eligable buissnesses returned their ballot. I'dbe interesting to know more about why there was such a low number to votes returned.



There were 513 eligible businesses who could have voted, of that total 56 voted against.

That’s 10.9%

Alex


----------



## DietCokeGirl (Nov 4, 2018)

alex_ said:


> There were 513 eligible businesses who could have voted, of that total 56 voted against.
> 
> That’s 10.9%
> 
> Alex


"Some 302 of 513 eligible businesses, a turnout of 59%, voted by 228 to 56, with 18 spoilt ballot papers, to renew" from Brixton Blog. So 41% of eligable buissnesses didn't vote. I'm curious why that percentage is so high.


----------



## editor (Nov 4, 2018)

DietCokeGirl said:


> "Some 302 of 513 eligible businesses, a turnout of 59%, voted by 228 to 56, with 18 spoilt ballot papers, to renew" from brixton Blog. So 41% of eligable buissnesses didn't vote. I'm curious why that percentage is so high.


And as Buzz reported, there's been even less engagement this time around:



> The number of businesses voting to endorse the renewal is lower than the 255 that hadn’t paid the non-negotiable tax in the first year.


----------



## Gramsci (Nov 4, 2018)

alex_ said:


> It also means that some costs of businesses can be transferred back to those businesses which otherwise would be paid for by all rate payers.
> 
> Alex



What costs?


----------



## alex_ (Nov 4, 2018)

DietCokeGirl said:


> "Some 302 of 513 eligible businesses, a turnout of 59%, voted by 228 to 56, with 18 spoilt ballot papers, to renew" from Brixton Blog. So 41% of eligable buissnesses didn't vote. I'm curious why that percentage is so high.



Surely we are both right.

228 of 513 businesses voted for
56 of 513 voted against.

Alex


----------



## alex_ (Nov 4, 2018)

Gramsci said:


> What costs?



Piss on the streets ?


----------



## alcopop (Nov 4, 2018)

DietCokeGirl said:


> "Some 302 of 513 eligible businesses, a turnout of 59%, voted by 228 to 56, with 18 spoilt ballot papers, to renew" from Brixton Blog. So 41% of eligable buissnesses didn't vote. I'm curious why that percentage is so high.


I think that a turnout of 59% is relatively high for this kind of thing


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## Gramsci (Nov 4, 2018)

alex_ said:


> Piss on the streets ?



That's due to lack of public toilets.


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## Gramsci (Nov 4, 2018)

alex_ said:


> Piss on the streets ?



As I keep saying a core service like street cleaning is supposed to happen regardless of BID.


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## Rushy (Nov 4, 2018)

alcopop said:


> I think that a turnout of 59% is relatively high for this kind of thing


I've not been paying much attention of late but I've not been a fan of BID from a resident's pov in the past. It has felt far too focused on expanding the night time economy at residents' expense. However, in so far as far as the vote is concerned, the turn out is high enough and result sufficiently polarised to be pretty convincing. To swing the vote in the other direction, 201 of the 227 who didn't vote - almost 90% - would need to have turned out against the BID. Possible, yes. Likely, no.


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## alex_ (Nov 5, 2018)

Gramsci said:


> As I keep saying a core service like street cleaning is supposed to happen regardless of BID.



Did it happen prd BID ?

Alex


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## alex_ (Nov 5, 2018)

alcopop said:


> I think that a turnout of 59% is relatively high for this kind of thing



Yes - turnout for the Brixton one is very high.

A higher % voted yes, than turn out for most BID elections. 

Turnout by some bids i found in 10m on the train ( I searched for - uk business improvement district election)

Neath 38% https://www.npt.gov.uk/media/5359/elections_neath_bid_2015.pdf
Fulham 32% https://www.lbhf.gov.uk/sites/default/files/section_attachments/bid_2018_declaration_of_result.pdf
Dunblaine 61% Stirling Council - Dunblane Business Improvement District 2015
Wood Green 33% https://www.haringey.gov.uk/sites/haringeygovuk/files/declaration_of_result_of_ballot_march_2018.pdf
Nairn 51% https://www.highland.gov.uk/download/downloads/id/19534/nairn_bid.pdf
Swansea 38% https://www.swansea.gov.uk/media/15...istrict-ballot-2016/pdf/BID_Ballot_Result.pdf
St Albans 37% https://www.stalbans.gov.uk/Images/Declaration of result BID_tcm15-56288.pdf


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## alex_ (Nov 5, 2018)

Rushy said:


> I've not been a fan of BID from a resident's pov in the past. It has felt far too focused on expanding the night time economy at residents' expense.



Surely this is council policy and in line with planning ?

( all of which residents can comment upon, and have represenatation on ? ) 

Alex


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## editor (Nov 5, 2018)

Feel the spin! 80% of Brixton businesses did NOT vote for the BID, you twisting feckers.


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## 8ball (Nov 5, 2018)

editor said:


> Feel the spin! 80% of Brixton businesses did NOT vote for the BID, you twisting feckers.



I've got a feeling, charitably speaking, that you might have misread that tweet.


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## editor (Nov 5, 2018)

8ball said:


> I've got a feeling, charitably speaking, that you might have misread that tweet.


Saying "We believe we are doing great work #ForBrixton and so do *80% of the businesses who voted in favour*" suggests that they had the support of 80% of local businesses. That's how I believe it would read to the casual reader. There are  far more accurate ways of wording their actual support. 

No need for your patronising 'charity' either.


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## 8ball (Nov 5, 2018)

editor said:


> Saying "We believe we are doing great work #ForBrixton and so do *80% of the businesses who voted in favour*" suggests that they had the support of 80% of local businesses. That's how I believe it would read to the casual reader. There are  far more accurate ways of wording their actual support.



Well, if nothing else I'm sure you gave them a good laugh down at the office.


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## editor (Nov 5, 2018)

8ball said:


> Well, if nothing else I'm sure you gave them a good laugh down at the office.


I just read the quote to someone and they took it to mean what I suggested, so the laugh's on you. Quite why you're so keen to make it all personal and sarcastic here is anyone's guess, mind.


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## 8ball (Nov 5, 2018)

editor said:


> I just read the quote to someone and they took it to mean what I suggested, so the laugh's on you.



I think it depends on the level of literacy they are aiming at.


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## editor (Nov 5, 2018)

8ball said:


> I think it depends on the level of literacy they are aiming at.


Wow, you're really being quite unpleasant today.  Feel good about that, do you?


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## 8ball (Nov 5, 2018)

editor said:


> Wow, you're really being quite unpleasant today.  Feel good about that, do you?



It's pre-GCSE level reading comprehension - I don't think there's a Machiavellian plot going on here.  
They even provided figures really promptly, giving you an off-ramp that wasn't particularly merited.


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## editor (Nov 5, 2018)

8ball said:


> It's pre-GCSE level reading comprehension.


Just stop this.


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## 8ball (Nov 5, 2018)

editor said:


> Just stop this.



Stop disagreeing with you?
You could have just pointed out to them how their initial response was a little oblique and speculated on why.

I expect you know a good deal more than me about online marketing, but Brixton BID seem to have this one covered without your help.


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## editor (Nov 5, 2018)

8ball said:


> Stop disagreeing with you?


Stop being so aggressively rude, needlessly personal and patronising.


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## Rushy (Nov 5, 2018)

alex_ said:


> Surely this is council policy and in line with planning ?
> 
> ( all of which residents can comment upon, and have represenatation on ? )
> 
> Alex


Local Plan S.6 policy ED7 states:


> The Council wishes to support the evening economy in town centers whilst making sure that any adverse impact on local community is minimised.
> 
> Evening and food and drink uses will not be supported where this would cause unacceptable harm to community safety or the community of neighbouring residential areas ... as a result of noise, litter, etc..



So no, the Local Plan which was consulted upon and ratified does not include a clearly stated policy to expand the nighttime economy at residents' expense.


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## editor (Nov 5, 2018)

I'd like a bit of clarity about the relationship between the Brixton BID and Lambeth Council. At times they seem to be one and the same and that might raise questions about democracy and accountability to the general public.


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## 8ball (Nov 5, 2018)

editor said:


> I'd like a bit of clarity about the relationship between the Brixton BID and Lambeth Council. At times they seem to be one and the same and that might raise questions about democracy and accountability to the general public.



Are you suggesting it is significantly different to the relationship between any other BID and the local council in the area?


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## editor (Nov 5, 2018)

8ball said:


> Are you suggesting it is significantly different to the relationship between any other BID and the local council in the area?


I could be wrong but I found it odd when Brixton BID were actively encouraging people to vote for Lambeth Labour recently, and Labour were encouraging people to vote for the BID. That's the kind of thing that clouds the issue for me.


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## 8ball (Nov 5, 2018)

editor said:


> I could be wrong but I found it odd when Brixton BID were actively encouraging people to vote for Lambeth Labour recently, and Labour were encouraging people to vote for the BID. That's the kind of thing that clouds the issue for me.



That sounds (at _very_ best) massively unprofessional. 

I'd expect there to be some very clear distance between arrangements like BIDs and party politics.  I don't know what the actual stated rules are though tbh.


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## Gramsci (Nov 6, 2018)

8ball said:


> That sounds (at _very_ best) massively unprofessional.
> 
> I'd expect there to be some very clear distance between arrangements like BIDs and party politics.  I don't know what the actual stated rules are though tbh.



In Coldharbour Ward recently a Cllr died. Matt Parr. Decent guy. I didn't agree with his politics but I liked him personally.

In Coldharbour Ward its usual that Labour get in. The by election due to tragic death of  Matt Parr  there was by election.

As Greens had done well at Council elections this time the Labour party campaigned in Coldharbour. Instead of regarding it as safe seat.

To my surprise I was canvassed.

I kept the election literature New Labour put out.

Here is Micheal Smith , chief executive of Brixton Bid ( salary £65 thousand) in the leaflet from Labour party

"I'm confident that Scarlett ( the Labour candidate) will support Brixton business and work with Brixton BID to protect and enhance our town centre. A vote for Scarlett is a vote for Brixton business."

This is what I got posted in my letterbox.

The highly paid Chief executive of Brixton Bid allowed himself to be quoted in Labour party literature for Coldharbour Ward.

Totally out of order imo. His role as Chief executive is to represent BID members. He should not support a candidate of a particular party. He is paid post to represent BID members.



"


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## Gramsci (Nov 6, 2018)

The Labour party were really crapping themselves over the Coldharbour Ward by election. As long-term resident of Coldharbour Ward it was amusing to see them canvassing.


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## ricbake (Nov 6, 2018)

The BID ballots were sent out to the addresses where Business Rates bills are sent. For chains like the Phone Companies, KFC, Nandos, TK Max etc with shops rated over £12,000 RV,  the votes generally won't have been cast because they would have disappeared into back offices. Shops and Restarants smaller than something like 50 or 60 sq m don't pay and don't vote, but are heard.
The BID team were out canvassing through October, they were making efforts to contact all Levy paying voters. They are interested in doing good for Brixton, they were looking to understand how their constituents interpreted that - Pissing in the Street and protecting the identity of the area were raised.
They were informed that people regarded their remit as an unfortunate but inevitable privatisation of Council Services. They have regular meetings with the  council, councillors, interest groups - It is something of a club and the board does get filled by people giving time and energy through enlightened self-interest. It does create jobs including the part of its budget assigned to the cost of the police people who wouldn't be there otherwise.


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## ricbake (Nov 6, 2018)

editor said:


> I could be wrong but I found it odd when Brixton BID were actively encouraging people to vote for Lambeth Labour recently, and Labour were encouraging people to vote for the BID. That's the kind of thing that clouds the issue for me.


Mutual appreciation by people who are in regular contact over the same issues isn't surprising, perhaps not right though. Not sure if the BID should be apolitical, difficult with this Council's current political make up.


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## Gramsci (Nov 6, 2018)

ricbake said:


> Mutual appreciation by people who are in regular contact over the same issues isn't surprising, perhaps not right though. Not sure if the BID should be apolitical, difficult with this Council's current political make up.



Of course as an organisation Brixton Bid should not endorse a particular candidate. 

The Chief executive of Brixton Bid is paid post. 

It is imo totally out of order for Brixton Bid employee to use his post to endorse a particular candidate at an election.


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## Gramsci (Nov 6, 2018)

ricbake said:


> Mutual appreciation by people who are in regular contact over the same issues isn't surprising, perhaps not right though. Not sure if the BID should be apolitical, difficult with this Council's current political make up.



What issues?


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## Gramsci (Nov 6, 2018)

Can I make it clear the elected ruling Council and Brixton Bid are in legal terms separate entities.

They should behave as separate bodies. With different responsibilities as laid out in legislation.

"Mutual appreciation" should not happen. Both Council and BID should negotiate on basis they are separate and distinct bodies.


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## Gramsci (Nov 6, 2018)

ricbake said:


> The BID ballots were sent out to the addresses where Business Rates bills are sent. For chains like the Phone Companies, KFC, Nandos, TK Max etc with shops rated over £12,000 RV,  the votes generally won't have been cast because they would have disappeared into back offices. Shops and Restarants smaller than something like 50 or 60 sq m don't pay and don't vote, but are heard.
> The BID team were out canvassing through October, they were making efforts to contact all Levy paying voters. They are interested in doing good for Brixton, they were looking to understand how their constituents interpreted that - Pissing in the Street and protecting the identity of the area were raised.
> They were informed that people regarded their remit as an unfortunate but inevitable privatisation of Council Services. They have regular meetings with the  council, councillors, interest groups - It is something of a club and the board does get filled by people giving time and energy through enlightened self-interest. It does create jobs including the part of its budget assigned to the cost of the police people who wouldn't be there otherwise.



You do realise the Chief executive of Brixton BID gets paid a handsome salary? He doesn't do it purely for enlightened self interest?

So this levy is about semi privatisation of Council services?

Yes BID creates jobs. Whole chunk of levy goes to paying for Chief executive salary plus the other bureaucracy of BID. In that sense it creates jobs.


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## Gramsci (Nov 6, 2018)

ricbake said:


> The BID ballots were sent out to the addresses where Business Rates bills are sent. For chains like the Phone Companies, KFC, Nandos, TK Max etc with shops rated over £12,000 RV,  the votes generally won't have been cast because they would have disappeared into back offices. Shops and Restarants smaller than something like 50 or 60 sq m don't pay and don't vote, but are heard.
> The BID team were out canvassing through October, they were making efforts to contact all Levy paying voters. They are interested in doing good for Brixton, they were looking to understand how their constituents interpreted that - Pissing in the Street and protecting the identity of the area were raised.
> They were informed that people regarded their remit as an unfortunate but inevitable privatisation of Council Services. They have regular meetings with the  council, councillors, interest groups - It is something of a club and the board does get filled by people giving time and energy through enlightened self-interest. It does create jobs including the part of its budget assigned to the cost of the police people who wouldn't be there otherwise.



The police should be there BID or no BID.

BID is supposed to supplement services not pay for services that have been cut by central government.


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## Gramsci (Nov 6, 2018)

I'm no great supporter of capitalism. But making small business pay extra for street cleaning and policing stinks to me.

Its also nauseating to see it justified here.

Sole traders I know are really struggling. Some posters here don't have a clue.


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## alcopop (Nov 6, 2018)

Gramsci said:


> I'm no great supporter of capitalism. But making small business pay extra for street cleaning and policing stinks to me.
> 
> Its also nauseating to see it justified here.
> 
> Sole traders I know are really struggling. Some posters here don't have a clue.


The sole traders had a chance to vote against the BID if they didn’t want it.

 If they didn’t think the levy was worth it they should have voted!


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## alex_ (Nov 6, 2018)

alcopop said:


> The sole traders had a chance to vote against the BID if they didn’t want it.
> 
> If they didn’t think the levy was worth it they should have voted!



Compared to other BIDs the Brixton one has strong support, with a very high turnout to vote in favour.

Only 11% of the total number of traders voted against the BID.

Alex


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## ricbake (Nov 6, 2018)

Gramsci said:


> You do realise the Chief executive of Brixton BID gets paid a handsome salary? He doesn't do it purely for enlightened self interest?
> 
> So this levy is about semi privatisation of Council services?
> 
> Yes BID creates jobs. Whole chunk of levy goes to paying for Chief executive salary plus the other bureaucracy of BID. In that sense it creates jobs.


BID Board = enlightened self interest
BID CEO = well paid job - part of his remit is to raise funds from other sources and grants which seems to be successful
Yes it is privatisation of Council Services


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## ricbake (Nov 6, 2018)

Very few sole traders have to pay it - the Levy affects businesses with an RV over £12,000. Anyone with a business premises in the BID area with a property of higher RV is very unlikely to be a sole trader, not good business sense.


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## ricbake (Nov 6, 2018)

Mutual appreciation across this arena should not be so overt - but does the BID remit expressly require the CEO to be apolitical - please refer me to the rule...


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## ricbake (Nov 6, 2018)

I didn't set out to be a defender of the BID but emotional aversion to the philosophy behind it doesn't actual equate to a reasonable argument that it is all wrong.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 6, 2018)

ricbake said:


> I didn't set out to be a defender of the BID but emotional aversion to the philosophy behind it doesn't actual equate to a reasonable argument that it is all wrong.


on the grounds that...


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## Pickman's model (Nov 6, 2018)

ricbake said:


> Mutual appreciation across this arena should not be so overt - but does the BID remit expressly require the CEO to be apolitical - please refer me to the rule...


it is impossible to be apolitical in such a political organisation


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## Pickman's model (Nov 6, 2018)

ricbake said:


> Yes it is privatisation of Council Services


right. so as i said it is very political.


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## editor (Nov 6, 2018)

ricbake said:


> Mutual appreciation by people who are in regular contact over the same issues isn't surprising, perhaps not right though. Not sure if the BID should be apolitical, difficult with this Council's current political make up.


Mutual self appreciation is one thing but using their influence - and official channels - to try to get people to vote for one person/party over another is *waaay* outside their remit to my eyes.


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## editor (Nov 6, 2018)

ricbake said:


> Very few sole traders have to pay it - the Levy affects businesses with an RV over £12,000. Anyone with a business premises in the BID area with a property of higher RV is very unlikely to be a sole trader, not good business sense.


The family run (and now closed) A&C Deli were compelled to pay the BID tax, very much against their wishes, and these are the kind of small businesses that Brixton needs. The Bid just adds an extra burden to these traders. If they don't get involved they have to pay anyway, even if they struggle very hard to find any tangible benefits.

By their very nature, BIDs are anti-democratic, part-privatising and not interested in the wishes of residents and smaller businesses. And the more they cosy up to the council, the worse it might be for everyone who's not in the club.


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## Rushy (Nov 6, 2018)

ricbake said:


> I didn't set out to be a defender of the BID but emotional aversion to the philosophy behind it doesn't actual equate to a reasonable argument that it is all wrong.



I have to say that I can’t see much of a philosophical argument against the general idea. It makes sense to have a union of people working together to identify needs goals and action. My own objections to the Brixton BID were originally based on the composition of its board which seemed very night time economy focused. It also had some very questionable characters on the board such as, I forget his name, the guy who tried to cover up a shooting in his bar on Acre Lane. It gave the impression of a suspicious little cartel.  I haven’t followed its progress in any detail but I know of a couple of businesses who were originally infuriated by the general idea but now are keen supporters so it must be doing some things right.

My main concern now, as a resident, is that it creates a big imbalance where the interests of residents and traders are in conflict. The night time economy is one of those areas. BID is a well funded body with well paid permanent staff, access to consultants and legal advice etc. , putting forward a united voice. And possibly most importantly, it has smooth channels into the council and local press. Residents don’t have anything like that and our councillors and unfunded part time scrappy resident associations do not fill that gap. And let’s not pretend that the businesses set this up for themselves and that residents should sort their own shit out. It was a government backed initiative, spoon fed to businesses which would never have happened without the government devising and supporting the means of funding it. 

The solution might be as simple as local resident associations having meaningful and effective representation within BID. Or BID part funding an independent resident equivalent. But at the moment I don't much like the balance. Of course, BID has PR support which will constantly remind us that it is looking after the needs of residents every step of the way!


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## Tricky Skills (Nov 6, 2018)

editor said:


> I could be wrong but I found it odd when Brixton BID were actively encouraging people to vote for Lambeth Labour recently, and Labour were encouraging people to vote for the BID. That's the kind of thing that clouds the issue for me.



Sitting on the BID board are two Lambeth Labour Cllr's: Mary Atkins and Irfan Mohammed.


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## alex_ (Nov 6, 2018)

Tricky Skills said:


> Sitting on the BID board are two Lambeth Labour Cllr's: Mary Atkins and Irfan Mohammed.



I assume they are there as business representatives ?

Iirc the council is capped to one rep.

Alex


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## editor (Nov 6, 2018)

Tricky Skills said:


> Sitting on the BID board are two Lambeth Labour Cllr's: Mary Atkins and Irfan Mohammed.


Well, that's nice and cosy.


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## ricbake (Nov 6, 2018)

editor said:


> The family run (and now closed) A&C Deli were compelled to pay the BID tax, very much against their wishes, and these are the kind of small businesses that Brixton needs. The Bid just adds an extra burden to these traders. If they don't get involved they have to pay anyway, even if they struggle very hard to find any tangible benefits.
> 
> By their very nature, BIDs are anti-democratic, part-privatising and not interested in the wishes of residents and smaller businesses. And the more they cosy up to the council, the worse it might be for everyone who's not in the club.


3 Atlantic Rd had a RV of £7,000 rising to £13,250 in April 2017 - they could have appealed that and got it under the £12,000 threshold but even at £13,250 they would pay less than £100 a year and they could have voted against the BID

At my building we appealed the 2017 Rate increase of over 35% and it was reduced to an increase of about 4%


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## editor (Nov 6, 2018)

ricbake said:


> 3 Atlantic Rd had a RV of £7,000 rising to £13,250 in April 2017 - they could have appealed that and got it under the £12,000 threshold but even at £13,250 they would pay less than £100 a year and they could have voted against the BID
> 
> At my building we appealed the 2017 Rate increase of over 35% and it was reduced to an increase of about 4%


To a struggling business, an additional £100 in exchange for no palpable benefits could be enough to tip them over the edge. Straw/camel#s back and all that.


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## ricbake (Nov 6, 2018)

If there were no benefits - no one would have voted for it


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## alcopop (Nov 6, 2018)

ricbake said:


> If there were no benefits - no one would have voted for it


If there were no benefits you would expect a big no vote or a low turnout, and there were neither


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## ricbake (Nov 6, 2018)

Tricky Skills said:


> Sitting on the BID board are two Lambeth Labour Cllr's: Mary Atkins and Irfan Mohammed.


I think perhaps Cllr Mohammed is doing too well out of his Council connection


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## editor (Nov 6, 2018)

ricbake said:


> If there were no benefits - no one would have voted for it


I'm sure there's plenty of benefits for big companies like Squire & Partners or for people seeking local influence, or for those looking to get cosy with the council. But of the 513 eligible businesses in the area, only 228 were in favour.

And let's not forget: 


> The number of businesses voting to endorse the renewal is lower than the 255 that hadn’t paid the non-negotiable tax in the first year.
> 
> A Brixton Buzz Freedom of Information request showed that Lambeth Council was chasing non-payment of the BID for 255 out of 721 local business in 2014/15. This represents 35% of the businesses that formed part of the BID.
> 
> This led to Lambeth Council issuing 141 court summons to local traders. This came at a cost of £23,970 to the Council.


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## TruXta (Nov 6, 2018)

editor said:


> I'm sure there's plenty of benefits for big companies like Squire & Partners or for people seeking local influence, or for those looking to get cosy with the council. But of the 513 eligible businesses in the area, only 228 were in favour.
> 
> And let's not forget:


That's not true, as has been pointed out repeatedly. Neither you nor I know how non-voting businesses would have swung.


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## editor (Nov 6, 2018)

TruXta said:


> That's not true, as has been pointed out repeatedly. Neither you nor I know how non-voting businesses would have swung.


Let me reword it: 'But of the 513 eligible businesses in the area, only 228 could be bothered to engage positively.' Better?

Any thoughts about all the small businesses Lambeth took to court because of the BID?


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## TruXta (Nov 6, 2018)

editor said:


> Let mew reword it: But of the 513 eligible businesses in the area, only 228 could be bothered to engage positively. Better?


Not really imo. All votes are sign of positive engagement regardless of how they voted.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 6, 2018)

TruXta said:


> Not really imo. All votes are sign of positive engagement regardless of how they voted.


yeh don't vote, it only encourages them


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## ricbake (Nov 6, 2018)

ricbake said:


> The BID ballots were sent out to the addresses where Business Rates bills are sent. For chains like the Phone Companies, KFC, Nandos, TK Max etc with shops rated over £12,000 RV, the votes generally won't have been cast because they would have disappeared into back offices


Abstentions should not necessarily be regarded as negative

It was only possibleto vote by returning the Ballot paper supplied


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## TruXta (Nov 6, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh don't vote, it only encourages them


There's that.


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## TruXta (Nov 6, 2018)

editor said:


> Any thoughts about all the small businesses Lambeth took to court because of the BID?


Yeah, Lambeth are cunts. What's new?


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## alex_ (Nov 6, 2018)

editor said:


> I'm sure there's plenty of benefits for big companies like Squire & Partners or for people seeking local influence, or forBut of the 513 eligible businesses in the area, only 228 were in favour.



Which is a very large turnout for this kind of thing.

If business in Brixton has such an issue with the BID why did so few vote against it ?

Alex


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## Tricky Skills (Nov 6, 2018)

ricbake said:


> I think perhaps Cllr Mohammed is doing too well out of his Council connection



Yes. Looks like he didn't have any issues in offloading his Electric Avenue business premise after it was tarted up with Council sourced Lottery Heritage Fund money.


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## editor (Nov 6, 2018)

Tricky Skills said:


> Yes. Looks like he didn't have any issues in offloading his Electric Avenue business premise after it was tarted up with Council sourced Lottery Heritage Fund money.


Utterly despicable. I wonder how much extra he trousered for himself out of this fortuitous arrangement?


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## ricbake (Nov 6, 2018)

editor said:


> Let me reword it: 'But of the 513 eligible businesses in the area, only 228 could be bothered to engage positively.' Better?
> 
> Any thoughts about all the small businesses Lambeth took to court because of the BID?



They use CAPITA for "customer service" 


Nine spectacular council outsourcing failures


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## editor (Dec 16, 2020)

They've made a nice Christmas video but forgotten to add the names of the businesses featured


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