# Is Brixton now irrevocably and fundamentally on the turn?



## teuchter (May 27, 2011)

I know that Brixton, like anywhere else in London, has been many things over the years, and that change is inevitable.

All the time I've lived here (which is only ten years) there's been a sort of feeling that it's been gentrifying and so on, but it's seemed to be a gradual process and I haven't felt that the essence of the place has really changed that much.

But recently, in the space of the last year, say, it's started to feel like the Brixton I know and love hasn't got much time left. In a few years it's just not going to be the same place.

What do you reckon - am I being melodramatic or not?


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## lizzieloo (May 27, 2011)

It's the same everywhere, things change. Is Brixton the same place now that it was 30 years ago? or 60?


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## Kanda (May 27, 2011)

I'd say the gentrification has definitely speeded up over the last year or so with all the pop up shops/coffee shops/poncy bakeries and such...  oh, and all those hipsters!!!


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## tarannau (May 27, 2011)

Yep. It's a little disappointing really. Some of the things that made Brixton unique are been washed over with a dull Spitalfields Mk2 remake. Bring on Giraffe and another srtisan pizza place and it'll be almost there.


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## editor (May 27, 2011)

Mind you, you can still get sold fake drugs and get beaten up to a pulp in central Brixton at night, so the good old days haven't gone completely.


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## Hocus Eye. (May 27, 2011)

editor said:


> Mind you, you can still get sold fake drugs and get beaten up to a pulp in central Brixton at night, so the good old days haven't gone completely.



So it really is just like everywhere else in the UK.


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## Badgers (May 27, 2011)

We will always have Windrush Square


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## teuchter (May 27, 2011)

Kanda said:


> I'd say the gentrification has definitely speeded up over the last year or so with all the pop up shops/coffee shops/poncy bakeries and such...  oh, and all those hipsters!!!


 
But it doesn't bother you?


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## teuchter (May 27, 2011)

lizzieloo said:


> It's the same everywhere, things change. Is Brixton the same place now that it was 30 years ago? or 60?


 
Please read the OP.


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## leanderman (May 27, 2011)

I completely agree. The gentrification has speeded up hugely in the past 12 months.

And that can be good, for example with 'Brixton Village'.

I wouldn't worry about a middle-class influx 

My friends who can afford to buy prefer a west london shoebox or southernmost tooting to brixton


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## Streathamite (May 27, 2011)

teuchter said:


> I know that Brixton, like anywhere else in London, has been many things over the years, and that change is inevitable.
> 
> All the time I've lived here (which is only ten years) there's been a sort of feeling that it's been gentrifying and so on, but it's seemed to be a gradual process and I haven't felt that the essence of the place has really changed that much.
> 
> ...


Congratulations on starting the one zillionth u75 Beware The Ides Of Gentrification thread! 
are you now, or have you ever been, known as Hatboy?


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## teuchter (May 27, 2011)

editor said:


> get beaten up to a pulp in central Brixton at night


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## teuchter (May 27, 2011)

leanderman said:


> I
> And that can be good, for example with 'Brixton Village'.


 
Why is it good? It's just going to speed the demise of the real market and doesn't provide anything you can't get in loads of other bits of London.


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## lizzieloo (May 27, 2011)

teuchter said:


> Please read the OP.



I did, you said the same thing is happening everywhere else in London, my point was it's happening everywhere, not just london.

Plus the fact that you are older than you were means you're looking at things from a different perspective.


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## leanderman (May 27, 2011)

teuchter said:


> Why is it good? It's just going to speed the demise of the real market and doesn't provide anything you can't get in loads of other bits of London.


 
It's good, because I like the cafes ... and I like them local.


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## nagapie (May 27, 2011)

leanderman said:


> My friends who can afford to buy prefer a west london shoebox or southernmost tooting to brixton



This is a true point. All the middle class families I know in Brixton or the surrounding neighbourhoods keep telling me of their plans to leave the area.


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## boohoo (May 27, 2011)

The early to mid 90s felt like the last big wave of gentrification - when Brixton was really trendy to move into. It will change. That is the nature of things.


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## paolo (May 27, 2011)

teuchter said:


>


 
Axe attack outside KFC last night?


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## teuchter (May 27, 2011)

paolo999 said:


> Axe attack outside KFC last night?


 
Oh


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## urbanspaceman (May 27, 2011)

My neighbourhood has definitely gentrified over the longer term. 150 years ago (only three times as long as I've been alive) my street in Brixton was bucolic cow pasture, sloping down to the banks of the River Effra. So - if we accept that humans are more gentrified than cows, the first wave of gentrification then occurred in 1870, when the terraces around here were bult for solidly bourgeois clerks and tradesmen, who took the new train and trams into Town. Things were up and down for decades, with Charles Booth's poverty map stating: "Mixed. Some comfortable others poor."

At the end of WWII and subsequently, people from all over the world have arrived in Brixton. As the UK has grown richer, and London particularly so, I don't think it's such a surprise that Brixton is partially reverting to its original nature, that of a close-in suburb for professionals and white collar commuters, now as then attracted by good transport links. 

So, to freeze Brixton at some particular stage in its history, you have to justify which period within the past 150 years. And during its short period of inhabitation, Brixton has been a bourgeois suburb more than it's been anything else.


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## teuchter (May 27, 2011)

urbanspaceman said:


> My neighbourhood has definitely gentrified over the longer term. 150 years ago (only three times as long as I've been alive) my street in Brixton was bucolic cow pasture, sloping down to the banks of the River Effra. So - if we accept that humans are more gentrified than cows, the first wave of gentrification then occurred in 1870, when the terraces around here were bult for solidly bourgeois clerks and tradesmen, who took the new train and trams into Town. Things were up and down for decades, with Charles Booth's poverty map stating: "Mixed. Some comfortable others poor."
> 
> At the end of WWII and subsequently, people from all over the world have arrived in Brixton. As the UK has grown richer, and London particularly so, I don't think it's such a surprise that Brixton is partially reverting to its original nature, that of a close-in suburb for professionals and white collar commuters, now as then attracted by good transport links.
> 
> So, to freeze Brixton at some particular stage in its history, you have to justify which period within the past 150 years. And during its short period of inhabitation, Brixton has been a bourgeois suburb more than it's been anything else.


 
I thought I'd put a sufficient "yes yes change is inevitable" disclaimer in the OP to prevent posts like this but obviously not.

The point is that I feel we are at some kind of tipping point right now. I am wondering if others agree.

And it's not just about "gentrification". My feeling is that Brixton has for various reasons tended to attract people with a certain set of attitudes and a tendency to be quite loyal to the area. Loads of these people are and always have been middle class. I'm one of them. I don't think this is just about a sudden influx of affluence. It feels like people are coming to and living in Brixton for different things now. It's hard to define exactly what it is about Brixton that made me feel somehow "at home" since I first came here, but I feel this is now being lost. Again not in an easily definable way. And I don't think it's just me getting older.


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## Orang Utan (May 27, 2011)

teuchter said:


> But it doesn't bother you?


 
doesn't bother me, there are nice shops.
this attitude may change when i return to brixton and can't afford to shop in any of them.


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## marty21 (May 27, 2011)

if you are upset about the gentrification of Brixton - move to Upper Clapton, an area highly unlikely to ever be gentrified.


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## leanderman (May 27, 2011)

teuchter said:


> It feels like people are coming to and living in Brixton for different things now. .


 
I arrived five years ago and suspect I am one of these people with 'different attitudes'.

But my wife and I love Brixton, are loyal to it and are determined that our three young daughters will grow up here.


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## teuchter (May 27, 2011)

leanderman said:


> I arrived five years ago and suspect I am one of these people with 'different attitudes'.
> 
> But my wife and I love Brixton, are loyal to it and are determined that our three young daughters will grow up here.


 
Why do you love Brixton and why do you feel loyal to it?


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## teuchter (May 27, 2011)

marty21 said:


> if you are upset about the gentrification of Brixton - move to Upper Clapton, an area highly unlikely to ever be gentrified.


 
Please refer to comments above about this not really being just about gentrification.


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## mwareing1 (May 27, 2011)

Different people want different things from an area. I like Brixton because it feels very non conformist and special! People who live here, black or white, rich or poor believe in Brixton.They want it to succeed. There are middle (and upper and lower) classes everywhere in London. Of course i am happy to live here. My flat has risen £140K in 8 years. If you dont like an area leave! It was inevitable that Brixton was going to become more gentrifide. We are on the boarders of Balham and Clapham.....You could never fight it!


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## ash (May 27, 2011)

mwareing1 said:


> Different people want different things from an area. I like Brixton because it feels very non conformist and special! People who live here, black or white, rich or poor believe in Brixton.They want it to succeed. There are middle (and upper and lower) classes everywhere in London. Of course i am happy to live here. My flat has risen £140K in 8 years. If you dont like an area leave! It was inevitable that Brixton was going to become more gentrifide. We are on the boarders of Balham and Clapham.....You could never fight it!


 
Does Brixton have a border with Balham??  Don't think so!


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## Greebo (May 27, 2011)

mwareing1 said:


> <snip>We are on the boarders of Balham and Clapham.....You could never fight it!


Not forgetting Herne Hill, one side of which is almost Dulwich!

Brixton used to be genteel once upon a time, and maybe it will be again.  All the same, I hope it doesn't happen just yet.


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## mwareing1 (May 27, 2011)

ash said:


> Does Brixton have a border with Balham??  Don't think so!


 
Point taken, but what i meant was its surrounding areas.


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## TruXta (May 27, 2011)

Honestly I don't give a shit about this gentrification lak. I'm probably part of it socio-economically, but for me Brixton is great because it's a place unto itself in many ways - its own market, cinema, square, high street, brand, rep, rumour, you name it, it's never boring. Simply put I don't have to move anywhere to have a great time. That for me is enough.


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## Orang Utan (May 27, 2011)

really? i love living there, but can't say it's that great for going out and stuff. i always tend to leave for entertainment, drinkin and dancing n that. oh, except for cinema-going.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (May 27, 2011)

Orang Utan said:


> really? i love living there, but can't say it's that great for going out and stuff. i always tend to leave for entertainment, drinkin and dancing n that. oh, except for cinema-going.


 

Just great for sitting in or outside fancy coffee and cake shops


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## teuchter (May 27, 2011)

mwareing1 said:


> Different people want different things from an area. I like Brixton because it feels very non conformist and special! People who live here, black or white, rich or poor believe in Brixton.*They want it to succeed*. There are middle (and upper and lower) classes everywhere in London. Of course i am happy to live here. My flat has risen £140K in 8 years. If you dont like an area leave! It was inevitable that Brixton was going to become more gentrifide. We are on the boarders of Balham and Clapham.....You could never fight it!


 
What does that actually mean?


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## teuchter (May 27, 2011)

Orang Utan said:


> really? i love living there, but can't say it's that great for going out and stuff. i always tend to leave for entertainment, drinkin and dancing n that.


 
Yeah but you are one of those checked-shirt wearers.


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## teuchter (May 27, 2011)

TruXta said:


> Honestly I don't give a shit about this gentrification lak. I'm probably part of it socio-economically, but for me Brixton is great because it's a place unto itself in many ways - its own market, cinema, square, high street, brand, rep, rumour, you name it, it's never boring. Simply put I don't have to move anywhere to have a great time. That for me is enough.


 
You're right, one of the great things about Brixton is that it's "a place unto itself in many ways". There's an incredible amount of different stuff going on all at the same time and managing to co-exist. Something tells me that this will become increasingly less true over the next few years.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (May 28, 2011)

I heard The Phoenix cafe is going to become a twee cake shop


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## leanderman (May 28, 2011)

teuchter said:


> Why do you love Brixton and why do you feel loyal to it?


 
i love it because the people are unpretentious. and because it has lots of great things to do within walking distance, especially family things.

i feel loyal to brixton in a millwall 'no one likes us, we don't care' way.

despite the withering scorn of friends who know no better


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## teuchter (May 28, 2011)

leanderman said:


> i love it because the people are unpretentious.


 
And you have no concern about this situation changing?


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## nick h. (May 28, 2011)

There seem to be lots more tourists this year. Probably the Rosie's and Franco Manca effect, augmented by the seating outside the Ritzy. But the crime will always stop the place from going all Clapham. So the people who come here to buy oregano are keeping it real.


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## boohoo (May 28, 2011)

teuchter said:


> And it's not just about "gentrification". My feeling is that Brixton has for various reasons tended to attract people with a certain set of attitudes and a tendency to be quite loyal to the area. Loads of these people are and always have been middle class. I'm one of them. I don't think this is just about a sudden influx of affluence. It feels like people are coming to and living in Brixton for different things now. It's hard to define exactly what it is about Brixton that made me feel somehow "at home" since I first came here, but I feel this is now being lost. Again not in an easily definable way. And I don't think it's just me getting older.



You make a presumption that a lot of people who live in the area have had a choice to live here. Most social housing tenants would not have had much choice about where they are located and there are a fair amount of these properties in the Brixton area therefore social hosuing tenants making do with where they are. 

I think you are suffering with a dose of nostalgia. Places change I love 1997 Liverpool before they pulled down half the old warehouses and 1979 Southwark cathedral when it looked like 1997 Liverpool (warehouses again).


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## boohoo (May 28, 2011)

teuchter said:


> You're right, one of the great things about Brixton is that it's "a place unto itself in many ways". There's an incredible amount of different stuff going on all at the same time and managing to co-exist. Something tells me that this will become increasingly less true over the next few years.


 Brixton changes it is less _and _more diverse than it was back in the 1990s.


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## mwareing1 (May 29, 2011)

nick h. said:


> There seem to be lots more tourists this year. Probably the Rosie's and Franco Manca effect, augmented by the seating outside the Ritzy. But the crime will always stop the place from going all Clapham. So the people who come here to buy oregano are keeping it real.


 
Lol keeping it real!!! Is that why you moved here...............If that what excites you about a place. How very shallow and boring.


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## mwareing1 (May 29, 2011)

I think you are suffering with a dose of nostalgia. Places change I love 1997 Liverpool before they pulled down half the old warehouses and 1979 Southwark cathedral when it looked like 1997 Liverpool (warehouses again). 



But lets not forget that the warehouses were converted, giving a new regeneration in a poor dilapitated area. This gives jobs etc. You cant compare Liverpool to London in any way.


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## Kanda (May 29, 2011)

leanderman said:


> i love it because the people are unpretentious. and because it has lots of great things to do within walking distance, especially family things.
> 
> i feel loyal to brixton in a millwall 'no one likes us, we don't care' way.
> 
> despite the withering scorn of friends who know no better



Thing is, this is what is changing... ^^ It's becoming all hip/trendy etc...


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## nick h. (May 29, 2011)

mwareing1 said:


> Lol keeping it real!!! Is that why you moved here...............If that what excites you about a place. How very shallow and boring.


 
Your irony detector needs adjusting.


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## boohoo (May 29, 2011)

Kanda said:


> Thing is, this is what is changing... ^^ It's becoming all hip/trendy etc...



It went through a phase of being hip and trendy in the early 1990s - it was the place to move to. Then it stayed stagnant.


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## Gramsci (May 29, 2011)

Its how Brixton changes and who has a say in it that is the issue. 

Saying its a longstanding gradual process make it sound almost natural like the change in seasons. 

The one thing that stops gentrification is the large amount of social housing built around central market area. This was done due to political will and decisions in the 60s and 70s. The government is bringing in legislation to effectively gradually destroy social housing.

See here:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/may/18/localism-bill-social-housing

This could change the composition of Brixton.

Also looking at specifically at Brixton is perhaps not the only way to look at issues of gentrification. London as a whole has become a playground for the Super rich who jet around the world. Look at One Hyde Park for example.

There is danger with gentrification debates that people fight each other but lose the bigger picture. The problem with London is the parasitical classes of Bankers and Super rich ( oligarchs etc).



See here Mike Davis (author of Planet of Slums) on this issue:


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## Gramsci (May 29, 2011)

http://books.google.co.uk/books?hl=...20BbVHf8K8hxPsGNh2Y8KuTzs#v=onepage&q&f=false

Found this book in Foyles. Have not read it all as its expensive. But this extract gives you an idea. She looks at "gentrifiers" in a sympathetic light. Makes a more subtle argument about gentrification than the them and us one. It looks at the ideology and practise of those classified as Gentrifiers. She has different terms for different gentrifiers. She invents the term Social Preservationists for those who try to preserve the areas they move to in terms of the cultural mix in the neighbourhood. Rather than just architecture.


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## Kanda (May 29, 2011)

boohoo said:


> It went through a phase of being hip and trendy in the early 1990s - it was the place to move to. Then it stayed stagnant.


 
Not really stagnant. Tons of old Victorian houses getting converted into 2 bed flats affordable to middle class couples... it's been happening since the 90's and affordable credit etc.. they just used to go out in Clapham, now they have all the 'wonderful' new coffee shops/pop up shops... It's gone from an 'edgy' desirable area to Spitalfields MkII


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## Diamond (May 29, 2011)

Change.

Mainly a function of getting older.

Quite often takes the form of a process of alienation.


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## TruXta (May 29, 2011)

Kanda said:


> Not really stagnant. Tons of old Victorian houses getting converted into 2 bed flats affordable to middle class couples... it's been happening since the 90's and affordable credit etc.. they just used to go out in Clapham, now they have all the 'wonderful' new coffee shops/pop up shops... It's gone from an 'edgy' desirable area to Spitalfields MkII


 
That's a bit harsh.


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## Pickman's model (May 29, 2011)

TruXta said:


> That's a bit harsh.


 
true tho. brixton as i knew and loved it ended when the baked potato place down the way from the station, brady's and the 121 disappeared.


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## boohoo (May 29, 2011)

Kanda said:


> Not really stagnant. Tons of old Victorian houses getting converted into 2 bed flats affordable to middle class couples... it's been happening since the 90's and affordable credit etc.. they just used to go out in Clapham, now they have all the 'wonderful' new coffee shops/pop up shops... It's gone from an 'edgy' desirable area to Spitalfields MkII



That property conversion has gone on all over London though. I refer it's stagnant state to the fact it has not been perceived as really trendy since the 90s. However the arrival of the eateries aimed at the middle classes outside of Brixton are an attempt to make it a place people visit. However, to make a really big change they would have to reduce the social housing in the area. It's not really like Spitalfields at all unless you are talking about  the earlier market which was "upgraded".


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## Pickman's model (May 29, 2011)

boohoo said:


> That property conversion has gone on all over London though. I refer it's stagnant state to the fact it has not been perceived as really trendy since the 90s. However the arrival of the eateries aimed at the middle classes outside of Brixton are an attempt to make it a place people visit. However, to make a really big change they would have to reduce the social housing in the area. It's not really like Spitalfields at all unless you are talking about  the earlier market which was "upgraded".


 give it a couple of years.


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## boohoo (May 29, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> give it a couple of years.



Might happen, might not. These gentrification threads are littered all over the brixton forum.

Back in day, gentrification was when we got Bodyshop - the beginning of the end - the retailers deciding it were safe to come back after the riots.


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## Kanda (May 29, 2011)

boohoo said:


> That property conversion has gone on all over London though. I refer it's stagnant state to the fact it has not been perceived as really trendy since the 90s. However the arrival of the eateries aimed at the middle classes outside of Brixton are an attempt to make it a place people visit. However, to make a really big change they would have to reduce the social housing in the area. It's not really like Spitalfields at all unless you are talking about  the earlier market which was "upgraded".


 
There's been a reduction of social housing going on for years...


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## Pickman's model (May 29, 2011)

boohoo said:


> Might happen, might not. These gentrification threads are littered all over the brixton forum.
> 
> Back in day, gentrification was when we got Bodyshop - the beginning of the end - the retailers deciding it were safe to come back after the riots.


 
i didn't know there was a bodyshop in brixton before the riots.


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## boohoo (May 30, 2011)

There wasn't  - many shops disappeared after the riots so everything turned to pound stretcher type things. It was like the retail world decided Brixton was a bad investment. As a teen, you didn't shop in Brixton, it had nothing to offer. However when Bodyshop arrived, it was a newish brand to the High Street so it seem liked we were finally getting some decent shops that appealed to a younger audience.


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## Pickman's model (May 30, 2011)

boohoo said:


> There wasn't  - many shops disappeared after the riots so everything turned to pound stretcher type things. It was like the retail world decided Brixton was a bad investment. As a teen, you didn't shop in Brixton, it had nothing to offer. However when Bodyshop arrived, it was a newish brand to the High Street so it seem liked we were finally getting some decent shops that appealed to a younger audience.


 so what you mean is  retailers never went away and some extra ones arrived.


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## Kanda (May 30, 2011)

Oh well. We have a Starbucks now!!


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## Pickman's model (May 30, 2011)

Kanda said:


> Oh well. We have a Starbucks now!!


 
oh dear


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## boohoo (May 30, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> so how did bodyshop decide it was safe to come back after the riots?



I said the retailers  decided it was safe to come back after the riots. Do you remember this then? And we got an Our Price.


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## boohoo (May 30, 2011)

Kanda said:


> Oh well. We have a Starbucks now!!



That was like when we got McDonalds - brixton is a bit Johnny come lately with the fast food.


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## Pickman's model (May 30, 2011)

boohoo said:


> I said the retailers  decided it was safe to come back after the riots.


 what you mean is chain stores decided it was safe to open in brixton, not that the retailers all went away. a rather different thing. i mean, morleys has been there since, what, the 1880s?


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## Pickman's model (May 30, 2011)

boohoo said:


> That was like when we got McDonalds - brixton is a bit Johnny come lately with the fast food.


 
there was a very nice baked potato place about 50 yards up if you turned right out the station in the early 90s.


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## boohoo (May 30, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> what you mean is chain stores decided it was safe to open in brixton, not that the retailers all went away. a rather different thing. i mean, morleys has been there since, what, the 1880s?



you are being picky. Do you want me to go to the archives and search out the particular store names that left Brixton during that period?


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## Pickman's model (May 30, 2011)

boohoo said:


> you are being picky. Do you want me to go to the archives and search out the particular store names that left Brixton during that period?


 
if you could. and where they went to.


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## boohoo (May 30, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> there was a very nice baked potato place about 50 yards up if you turned right out the station in the early 90s.


 
jackets- they had/have one in Clapham


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## boohoo (May 30, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> if you could. and where they went to.



C & A went and BHS became a sale outlet before disappearing. The stores from my youth are the stationers, Mothercare, Marks and Spencers, Boots, Morleys.


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## Gramsci (May 30, 2011)

boohoo said:


> However, to make a really big change they would have to reduce the social housing in the area.



Precisely and the Tory LD government is doing its best to get rid of social housing.


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## Gramsci (May 30, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> true tho. brixton as i knew and loved it ended when the baked potato place down the way from the station, brady's and the 121 disappeared.


 
And u missed out the (in)famous 7-11 between Spud U Like and the tube station.

That was a great place late at night.


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## boohoo (May 30, 2011)

Gramsci said:


> And u missed out the (in)famous 7-11 between Spud U Like and the tube station.
> 
> That was a great place late at night.


I really like the 7-11   - I'd forgot about that. 

We had a wimpy at some point too - I'm sure of it... (Plan B Building!)


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## Mrs Magpie (May 30, 2011)

Yup, it was indeed in the Plan b building.


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## Pickman's model (May 30, 2011)

there is no plan b


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## Mrs Magpie (May 30, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> there was a very nice baked potato place about 50 yards up if you turned right out the station in the early 90s.


The owner became a Lloyd's Name which is what did for him.


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## Pickman's model (May 30, 2011)

Mrs Magpie said:


> The owner became a Lloyd's Name which is what did for him.


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## Voley (May 30, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> there was a very nice baked potato place about 50 yards up if you turned right out the station in the early 90s.


 
I used to like that one, too. I used to eat there quite often if I couldn't be arsed cooking that night.


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## Pickman's model (May 30, 2011)

NVP said:


> I used to like that one, too. I used to eat there quite often if I couldn't be arsed cooking that night.


 
they had nice potatoes with ratatouille


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## Badgers (May 30, 2011)

Brixton needs a Spudulike


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## phildwyer (May 30, 2011)

TruXta said:


> Honestly I don't give a shit about this gentrification lak. I'm probably part of it



Just classic.  The best yet.


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## Mrs Magpie (May 30, 2011)

Aren't you banned from this forum, dwyer?


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## phildwyer (May 30, 2011)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Aren't you banned from this forum, dwyer?



Possibly.  I'll say goodnight now.


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## teuchter (May 30, 2011)

boohoo said:


> That property conversion has gone on all over London though. I refer it's stagnant state to the fact it has not been perceived as really trendy since the 90s. However the arrival of the eateries aimed at the middle classes outside of Brixton are an attempt to make it a place people visit. However, to make a really big change they would have to reduce the social housing in the area. It's not really like Spitalfields at all unless you are talking about  the earlier market which was "upgraded".


 

I don't think the amount of social housing is really relevant. Look at Brick Lane and how quickly that changed.


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## boohoo (May 30, 2011)

teuchter said:


> I don't think the amount of social housing is really relevant. Look at Brick Lane and how quickly that changed.



Brick lane is very close to the city unlike Brixton.


----------



## nick h. (May 31, 2011)

Won't the crime hold gentrification back? Other areas which have been gentrified don't have drug tourists and crowds of street dealers.


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## Orang Utan (May 31, 2011)

there will be a farmers' drug market selling heritage drugs such as laudanum and coca tea, and ethically sourced fairtrade organic cocaine and heroin


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## twistedAM (May 31, 2011)

Gramsci said:


> And u missed out the (in)famous 7-11 between Spud U Like and the tube station.
> 
> That was a great place late at night.



I loved that 7-11. Sausage Rolls for 5p or something stupid like that about 3am. Brixton Road at night seemed a LOT less busy in those days.


That's the place that I really miss; fuck Brady's you can get a late drink elsewhere but where could you get semi-edible food at those prices?


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## Ms T (May 31, 2011)

nick h. said:


> Won't the crime hold gentrification back? Other areas which have been gentrified don't have drug tourists and crowds of street dealers.


 
I dunno about that.  Parts of Hoxton/Shoreditch aren't very safe, especially if you're gay or a teenager.  

I've lived in Brixton since 1993 - I am middle-class and probably classed as a "gentrifier" but we didn't move here because it was "trendy", but because we happened to find a nice flat and as soon as I came out of the tube station I felt "at home" here for some reason.  I now live halfway between Brixton and Herne Hill and my road is very mixed indeed.  There are some more recent middle class couples/families, but my next door neighbour has lived there for 30 years and the same with the people across the road.  There are still quite a few council houses or housing association houses.  I can't see it changing that much.

My parents clearly think they've come to the Wild West when they visit.  My Mum spends her whole time clutching her bag and complaining about graffiti and litter.


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## Ms T (May 31, 2011)

twistedAM said:


> I loved that 7-11. Sausage Rolls for 5p or something stupid like that about 3am. Brixton Road at night seemed a LOT less busy in those days.
> 
> 
> That's the place that I really miss; fuck Brady's you can get a late drink elsewhere but where could you get semi-edible food at those prices?


 
That place was burnt down in a mini-riot shortly after I bought my first flat in Brixton.  

A lot of people thought I was mad to live here in the mid-nineties -  I'm not sure it was considered that "trendy" to be honest.


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## Pickman's model (May 31, 2011)

Ms T said:


> I dunno about that.  Parts of Hoxton/Shoreditch aren't very safe, especially if you're gay or a teenager.


 it's no great surprise parts of hoxton / shoreditch aren't safe when there's fuck loads of pissed up wankers wandering about.


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## teuchter (May 31, 2011)

nick h. said:


> Won't the crime hold gentrification back? Other areas which have been gentrified don't have drug tourists and crowds of street dealers.


 
What crime? It's just a perception and perceptions change.

And there aren't any "crowds of street dealers" any more anyway.


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## story (May 31, 2011)

teuchter, either you're being disingenuous or you're not paying attention.

The way they operate has changed to take account of the way policing responded to them. They no longer hang about in gangs, they wander about more haphazardly.

And as for "what crime?"... Were you not paying attention this weekend? Or in recent weeks? The number of really serious assaults has probably done the job of a small-to-medium riot in terms of keeping some potential buyers away from the area.


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## Ms T (May 31, 2011)

story said:


> teuchter, either you're being disingenuous or you're not paying attention.
> 
> The way they operate has changed to take account of the way policing responded to them. They no longer hang about in gangs, they wander about more haphazardly.
> 
> And as for "what crime?"... Were you not paying attention this weekend? Or in recent weeks? The number of really serious assaults has probably done the job of a small-to-medium riot in terms of keeping some potential buyers away from the area.


 

There've been two break-ins right opposite my house in the last couple of weeks as well.  Not conducive to making you feel safe, that's for sure.

I'm not sure you'd know about the two serious assaults/murders if you don't live here though - they haven't exactly been widely reported. 

As for the dealers, when I worked a shift that ended at 1 in the morning a few years ago I would regularly see the drug dealers hanging out on the corner of Kellett/Saltoun Roads on my way home.  It was laughably obvious that's what they were.  Are they still there or have they been dispersed?


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## teuchter (May 31, 2011)

I don't buy it that Brixton is really significantly more dangerous than most other similarly centrally located parts of London, in a way that would actually affect people looking to move into private housing in the area. I'll change my view if you can show me statistics that prove otherwise though.


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## story (May 31, 2011)

I wasn't saying anything about crime stats: I was responding to your question "What crime?"


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## TruXta (May 31, 2011)

teuchter said:


> I don't buy it that Brixton is really significantly more dangerous than most other similarly centrally located parts of London, in a way that would actually affect people looking to move into private housing in the area. I'll change my view if you can show me statistics that prove otherwise though.


 
The Coldharbour sub-ward has a "high level" of crime per the Met London crime map, as does the Ferndale ward. Less central parts of Brixton are average. http://maps.met.police.uk/


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## Mrs Magpie (May 31, 2011)

To be honest that crime map is deeply flawed. No crime on my street at all which I know is completely wrong.


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## TruXta (May 31, 2011)

Mrs Magpie said:


> To be honest that crime map is deeply flawed. No crime on my street at all which I know is completely wrong.


 
I'm sure it has its faults. Any better sources?

e2a it does say "low or no crime" on the legend.


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## teuchter (May 31, 2011)

story said:


> I wasn't saying anything about crime stats: I was responding to your question "What crime?"


 
Fair enough, but I was responding to nick h's mention of the crime that 'will hold gentrification back'. It's a perception of crime that holds gentrification back and it doesn't usually bear much resemblance to the actual amount of 'crime'. Especially when it comes to Brixton.


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## nick h. (May 31, 2011)

teuchter said:


> And there aren't any "crowds of street dealers" any more anyway.



The crowd by the Acre Lane bus stop is nearly always there and has been much discussed on urban lately.


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## Mrs Magpie (May 31, 2011)

TruXta said:


> I'm sure it has its faults. Any better sources?
> 
> e2a it does say "low or no crime" on the legend.


Well all the local crime is reported as being on an adjacent street and it's not that low. I just think it's really more misleading than no map at all really. I don't know of any other maps.


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## MrSilly (May 31, 2011)

As a lifelong Brixton resident, hater of hipsters and all things identikit and remotely cool, I'm a big fan of Brixton Village, especially since it's been opening later.  Brixton's had a serious dearth of places to eat out in the evenings for too long - chucking in a few more places (the Brick Box being my favourite) at Brixton Village is a good thing.  

Why do I love Brixton and feel so loyal?  The nutters outside the tube haven't changed in 20 years...


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## Cowley (May 31, 2011)

boohoo said:


> That property conversion has gone on all over London though. I refer it's stagnant state to the fact it has not been perceived as really trendy since the 90s. However the arrival of the eateries aimed at the middle classes outside of Brixton are an attempt to make it a place people visit. However, to make a really big change they would have to reduce the social housing in the area. It's not really like Spitalfields at all unless you are talking about  the earlier market which was "upgraded".



I think more than reducing the social housing will need to change, Islington & Notting Hill area still has large pockets of Social Housing but both areas are fashionable to Middle Class couples & families.

Brixton has gentrified in the sense that it appeals to the young first time buyers/couples who can afford the 300K + 2 Bed flat.  It's not and has some way to go before it gets to the Balham/Clapham level where Families will happily pay 500-750K for quite pokey terrace houses.  Obviously there needs to be whole Houses available before Families move in en mass but  there are still a number of other things preventing Brixton from getting the Balham/Clapham treatment, perception is one of them, the lack of decent state schools is another...I'm not saying there isn't decent state schools...just not enough. The lack of Private schools possibly is another issue, though Dulwich is nearby. 

Pretty much everything else is in Brixton makes it appealing to the Middle Class families IMHO.  There's a Tube Station/Excellent Transport Links, it's Close to Central London, Lots of Period Housing, Coffee Shops, Gastropubs, A big park, a High Street with all the basics, Big Supermarket. Of course there is Middle Class families that live in Brixton now, just not the same amount as what you have in Balham or Clapham.


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## editor (May 31, 2011)

Judging by the last week or so, Brixton seems to be turning noticeably more violent


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## Gramsci (May 31, 2011)

Cowley said:


> .
> 
> Pretty much everything else is in Brixton makes it appealing to the Middle Class families IMHO.  There's a Tube Station/Excellent Transport Links, it's Close to Central London, Lots of Period Housing, Coffee Shops, Gastropubs, A big park, a High Street with all the basics, Big Supermarket. Of course there is Middle Class families that live in Brixton now, just not the same amount as what you have in Balham or Clapham.


 
Like other areas in London in Brixton different social classes live nearby each other. There is nothing new about this. This was commented on just after the first riots. 

My other post linking a different way to look at "gentrifiers" is relevant here. Post 49. In late 70s 80s it was middle class "Guardian readers" ( social workers and other public sector workers) who moved into Brixton. They liked the cultural mix etc. 

They definitely were not the Thatcherite middle class- the new Loads of Money City boys.

The lack of schools and the perception of the Council that once people have children they move out of Brixton is dealt with on the primary school thread. Its worth a look. 

The trouble with a lot of the discussion about Gentrification is that they are descriptive but do no task questions. 

One question to be asked is why does so much have to depend on House prices? Is this inevitable? 

Many of the issues that affect Brixton affect the whole of London. They mostly seem to revolve around housing.


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## Pickman's model (May 31, 2011)

Gramsci said:


> Like other areas in London in Brixton different social classes live nearby each other. There is nothing new about this. This was commented on just after the first riots.
> 
> My other post linking a different way to look at "gentrifiers" is relevant here. Post 49. In late 70s 80s it was middle class "Guardian readers" ( social workers and other public sector workers) who moved into Brixton. They liked the cultural mix etc.
> 
> ...


 
what sort of other task questions are you thinking of?


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## Gramsci (Jun 1, 2011)

What is Gentrification? Is it some inevitable process that cant be stopped? ( See link I put up to book on gentrification)

Is it inevitable that house prices go up? Is home ownership even desirable? See here another excellant article by Owen Hatherley:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/may/31/home-ownership-debt-renting

Is there a way to retain an areas social and racial mix whilst allowing for change?

How can people have control of what happens in there area instead of assuming that its part of some process that just happens?


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## bluestreak (Jun 1, 2011)

i've been posting here a decade now, and tbh this thread could have been posted back then.  everywhere changes.  except romford.


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## teuchter (Jun 1, 2011)

nick h. said:


> The crowd by the Acre Lane bus stop is nearly always there and has been much discussed on urban lately.


 
I've not been aware of this Acre Lane "crowd", but the fact remains that they are much less noticeable when you come out of the tube than they were a few years ago.


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## editor (Jun 1, 2011)

It's a *lot* more pleasant around the tube station than it was back in 2002/3.


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## teuchter (Jun 1, 2011)

editor said:


> It's a *lot* more pleasant around the tube station than it was back in 2002/3.


 
It is, although I'd say that's more to do with the improvements to the pavements than the lack of dealers, who never really bothered me I have to say.

Maybe one day they'll actually get round to finishing the tube station itself.


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## editor (Jun 1, 2011)

teuchter said:


> It is, although I'd say that's more to do with the improvements to the pavements than the lack of dealers, who never really bothered me I have to say.


The switch to Oyster cards made a big difference. I've seen the guys who used to lurk by the stairs physically threaten women who didn't want to hand over their travelcards.


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## Cowley (Jun 1, 2011)

Gramsci said:


> Like other areas in London in Brixton different social classes live nearby each other. There is nothing new about this. This was commented on just after the first riots.
> 
> My other post linking a different way to look at "gentrifiers" is relevant here. Post 49. In late 70s 80s it was middle class "Guardian readers" ( social workers and other public sector workers) who moved into Brixton. They liked the cultural mix etc.
> 
> ...



I've enjoyed reading your posts on this thread Gramsci.

I've browsed through the Schools thread a few times...it doesn't directly affect me as I no longer live in South Brixton, though it's an interesting read all the same. The same kind of discussions are rife in the part of Streatham I live in...it's the State v Church v Private argument, it's all about choices.

Anyhow back on topic, I agree that Brixton is much more of a Family area now than say 10 or even 15 years ago but the point I was making is that it's still not a Family area of Choice like Balham or Clapham. Brixton is not that  different from say 10 or 15 years ago. Yes the amenities have improved, the council & housing associations have sold off a lot of the housing stock & more families live & stay in the area long term. 

Whilst it's not really seen as that radical for the middle classes to live in Brixton anymore, the area is also not that different than say 10 or 15 years ago, not to the extent that it's been gentrified beyond recognition.

In regards to your question re: does Gentrification depend on House prices? I don't think it necessarily has to but it does.

Prices rise, folks are priced out, a new type of buyer moves into the area.

Brixton is now a very expensive place to buy a Property. It's marketed now to middle class type clientele with good incomes.


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## Secateur (Jun 1, 2011)

been in Brix for three years now and last 12 months have really seen big changes. Didnt realise Franco Manca was open on Sundays now..that place has been great for the area imo.

anyway, I am one of those evil yuppies who buy in the area who may read the guardian from time to time.


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## Mrs Magpie (Jun 1, 2011)

Got to say, the the thread title having 'on the turn' in it makes me think of milk going rancid.


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## Cowley (Jun 1, 2011)

Secateur said:


> been in Brix for three years now and last 12 months have really seen big changes. Didnt realise Franco Manca was open on Sundays now..that place has been great for the area imo.
> 
> anyway, I am one of those evil yuppies who buy in the area who may read the guardian from time to time.



A Pizza place great for an area? Great for who?


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## TruXta (Jun 1, 2011)

Cowley said:


> A Pizza place great for an area? Great for who?


 
For people who like good pizza?


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## Cowley (Jun 1, 2011)

TruXta said:


> For people who like good pizza?



Haha 

At least his/hers post was honest, esp the end paragraph regarding them being one of those evil yuppies.


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## TruXta (Jun 1, 2011)

I think what he meant was that it partly set a new tone for that bit of the market and brought with it an influx of more well-off daytrippers. Blame the Guardian for reviewing the place so favourably if you wanna blame anyone.


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## editor (Jun 1, 2011)

TruXta said:


> I think what he meant was that it partly set a new tone for that bit of the market and brought with it an influx of more well-off daytrippers. Blame the Guardian for reviewing the place so favourably if you wanna blame anyone.


I suppose we could all blame Franco Manca for making such delicious and reasonably priced pizzas.


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## TruXta (Jun 1, 2011)

editor said:


> I suppose we could all blame Franco Manca for making such delicious and reasonably priced pizzas.


 
Well, if they're not responsible, then who are? BTW is that tattoo/hair shop opposite still going - the one you had such a great experience with?


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## Pickman's model (Jun 1, 2011)

Cowley said:


> A Pizza place great for an area? Great for who?


 
the people who run the business


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## Cowley (Jun 1, 2011)

TruXta said:


> I think what he meant was that it partly set a new tone for that bit of the market and brought with it an influx of more well-off daytrippers. Blame the Guardian for reviewing the place so favourably if you wanna blame anyone.


 
I fully understand what he was saying and wasn't blaming anyone.

Given the context of the thread and some of the other points mentioned,  I just thought it was quite ironic that using a Pizza Place as an example of a positive change. 

Gentrification should be beneficial for ALL of the community.

FWIW I use Franco Manca and have nothing against the place.


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## editor (Jun 1, 2011)

TruXta said:


> Well, if they're not responsible, then who are? BTW is that tattoo/hair shop opposite still going - the one you had such a great experience with?


I went past yesterday and a family were all sat on the seats in front of the barbers and scoffing ice creams. Perhaps he liked that because it helped block the view of his wanky fucking store.


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## Cowley (Jun 1, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> the people who run the business



Sure, be interesting to see what other businesses have been successful in the market since the influx of daytrippers.


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## Badgers (Jun 1, 2011)

editor said:


> I suppose we could all blame Franco Manca for making such delicious and reasonably priced pizzas.


 
I would like to see them expand as long as price and quality stay the same.


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## Mrs Magpie (Jun 1, 2011)

When I moved to Brixton 30 years ago many parts of it were derelict, surrounded with corrugated iron fences. Social housing was under-occupied (the council block I lived in had 25% occupancy and I'm including squatters as occupants as well as tenants). The market was much more lively and had a far greater range of stuff. Some of the changes have been good, some not so good and some dire.


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## editor (Jun 1, 2011)

Mrs Magpie said:


> When I moved to Brixton 30 years ago many parts of it were derelict, surrounded with corrugated iron fences. Social housing was under-occupied (the council block I lived in had 25% occupancy and I'm including squatters as occupants as well as tenants). The market was much more lively and had a far greater range of stuff. Some of the changes have been good, some not so good and some dire.









Large chunks of Atlantic Road by Coldharbour Lane were near derelict. The Lounge made a huge difference and should be credited for opening up that stretch. 

http://www.urban75.org/blog/atlantic-road-brixton-archive-photos-from-2001/


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## TruXta (Jun 1, 2011)

What did they have then that they don't know, Mrs M?


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## Ms T (Jun 1, 2011)

Badgers said:


> I would like to see them expand as long as price and quality stay the same.


 
They have already - there's a branch in Chiswick and another one opening in central London afaik.


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## Mrs Magpie (Jun 1, 2011)

@ TruXta
A pet shop, second hand stuff, cheap rents, variety.


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## Ms T (Jun 1, 2011)

To be fair, Franco Manca is used by a good cross-section of the community.


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## Badgers (Jun 1, 2011)

Ms T said:


> They have already - there's a branch in Chiswick and another one opening in central London afaik.


 
I don't care about Chiswick and Central London  

They need another Brixton branch. Ideally nearer to us


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## TruXta (Jun 1, 2011)

Mrs Magpie said:


> @ TruXta
> A pet shop, second hand stuff, cheap rents, variety.


 
A pet shop - that would be nice. I don't have any myself, but I can imagine a lot of people do have or would want cats, dogs, birds or fishes. Even in Brixton.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jun 1, 2011)

Mrs Magpie said:


> @ TruXta
> A pet shop, second hand stuff, cheap rents, variety.


 

That pet shop was great.


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## Secateur (Jun 1, 2011)

its not like I am talking about Pizza Express (boo herne hill) or starbucks....you can see the change in the market since Franco Mancas explosion in popularity..I couldnt believe it when I was there on Sunday!

I firmly believe any increase in footfall is a good thing....though the hipsters sometimes get my goat.


Is it too outlandish to say the spacemakers project played a large part in all this?


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## TruXta (Jun 1, 2011)

Re Spacemakers see the previous thread. Somewhere.


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## Gramsci (Jun 1, 2011)

TruXta said:


> What did they have then that they don't know, Mrs M?


 
There were also the secondhand market stalls on Saturdays. Always busy disappeared gradually.


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## Mrs Magpie (Jun 1, 2011)

TruXta said:


> A pet shop - that would be nice. I don't have any myself, but I can imagine a lot of people do have or would want cats, dogs, birds or fishes. Even in Brixton.


Well, it was the hay, sawdust, loose dog biscuits, bird feed etc that I miss. I don't particularly remember much in the way of animals except for kittens.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jun 1, 2011)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Well, it was the hay, sawdust, loose dog biscuits, bird feed etc that I miss. I don't particularly remember much in the way of animals except for kittens.


 
I remember there being fish in tanks for sale, but don't remember much else


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## Mrs Magpie (Jun 1, 2011)

They went because the rent went up so much that they couldn't stay in business.


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## editor (Jun 1, 2011)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Well, it was the hay, sawdust, loose dog biscuits, bird feed etc that I miss. I don't particularly remember much in the way of animals except for kittens.


I think I've got some pics somewhere. I think it's fair to say that the shop hadn't exactly moved with the times.


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## Mrs Magpie (Jun 1, 2011)

How does selling hay and dog biscuits need to move with the times?


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## editor (Jun 1, 2011)

Mrs Magpie said:


> How does selling hay and dog biscuits need to move with the times?


Look in a modern pet shop and you'll see the difference. People are prepared to pay a fortune on their beloved pooches and pets if you offer the right stuff for sale e.g. http://www.petsathome.com/


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## miss minnie (Jun 1, 2011)

Secateur said:


> its not like I am talking about Pizza Express (boo herne hill) or starbucks....you can see the change in the market since Franco Mancas explosion in popularity..I couldnt believe it when I was there on Sunday!
> 
> I firmly believe any increase in footfall is a good thing....though the hipsters sometimes get my goat.
> 
> Is it too outlandish to say the spacemakers project played a large part in all this?



You mean since Franco's became Franco Manca or since it started opening on Sundays or since "hipsters" started going there?

I remember having to queue for Franco's in the '80s, it was always mega popular.  On a Saturday you had to either get there about 11:30am or be prepared to queue for an hour.  They would take orders while you were in the queue.  They were so popular that a branch opened in Islington.  Later, there was a branch in Clapham.  I don't think Spacemakers were around back then.

As for "hipsters"... you mean young people in "funny" clothes?  You mean like punks and goths?  Teds and mods?


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## Mrs Magpie (Jun 1, 2011)

What's wrong with going in and buying a bag of sawdust and dog biscuits? I can't bear this pointless wasteful consumerism where I can buy a diamante chihuahua raincoat but can't get bedding for a hamster.


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## miss minnie (Jun 1, 2011)

Mrs Magpie said:


> What's wrong with going in and buying a bag of sawdust and dog biscuits? I can't bear this pointless wasteful consumerism where I can buy a diamante chihuahua raincoat but can't get bedding for a hamster.


I doubt that there is enough revenue in dog biscuits and sawdust what with all the online pet shops that deliver to your door nowadays.  If you have to pay rent on a bricks&mortar shop you will need more turnover than pet food can provide, probably.


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## Mrs Magpie (Jun 1, 2011)

Well, that pet shop went when no-one had home computers or word processors.


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## TruXta (Jun 1, 2011)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Well, that pet shop went when no-one had home computers or word processors.


 
Maybe all the pets got et in the 80s?


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## twistedAM (Jun 1, 2011)

miss minnie said:


> As for "hipsters"... you mean young people in "funny" clothes?  You mean like punks and goths?  Teds and mods?


 

Yeah what the fuck's wrong with funny clothes?


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## wtfftw (Jun 1, 2011)

Is Pet's Pantry still on brixton road?


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## Mrs Magpie (Jun 1, 2011)

Yes, but as Tescos are hoping to have TWO stores within spitting distance of that parade of shops, I fear for its future (along with the vast majority of its neighbouring businesses).


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## editor (Jun 1, 2011)

Mrs Magpie said:


> What's wrong with going in and buying a bag of sawdust and dog biscuits? I can't bear this pointless wasteful consumerism where I can buy a diamante chihuahua raincoat but can't get bedding for a hamster.


I'm not a fan of all those daft 'precious doggy outfits' but the point is that a modern small business has to offer something attractive that the big stores/online can't - whether that be better service, niche products or whatever.

An old fashioned pet store selling the kind of pet food you can pick up for a quarter of the price in Poundland ain't going to last long.


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## Mrs Magpie (Jun 1, 2011)

What that shop offered, which few chains do, was really good service. They'd get in stuff specially if asked rather than chant the mantra 'There's no demand for it.'


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## wtfftw (Jun 1, 2011)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Yes, but as Tescos are hoping to have TWO stores within spitting distance of that parade of shops, I fear for its future (along with the vast majority of its neighbouring businesses).


  I read about that. Probably on here. Quite  as that's my childhood. Y'know, when the Russell Hotel was a pub etcetc.


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## miss minnie (Jun 1, 2011)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Well, that pet shop went when no-one had home computers or word processors.


Maybe there was illness in the owner's family or something?  Not every shop that closes is the victim of market forces.


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## Mrs Magpie (Jun 1, 2011)

Well, I went there weekly and they told me it was the hike in rent. A lot of other places in the covered market went at the same time too.


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## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Jun 1, 2011)

bluestreak said:


> i've been posting here a decade now, and tbh this thread could have been posted back then.  everywhere changes.  except romford.




I find it hard to believe someone who's currently in Lincolnshire would say that.


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## Aquamarine (Jun 1, 2011)

I moved here on the strength of a few visits to my brother who lived here in the early 90s; what was special about Brixton at that time is no longer for lots of reasons  - what it represented relative to the mainstream etc.


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## Winot (Jun 1, 2011)

I'm amazed if people's delight in Brixton is shaken by a few shops closing, others opening, and a few more Claphamites being around. Suggests rather shallow foundations.


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## Gramsci (Jun 1, 2011)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Well, I went there weekly and they told me it was the hike in rent. A lot of other places in the covered market went at the same time too.


 
Correct. A friend of mine used to use it. They were helpful and friendly and stocked a good range of products.


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## Gramsci (Jun 1, 2011)

TruXta said:


> What did they have then that they don't know, Mrs M?


 
There were also more shops in CHL. Such as a hardware/ toolshop, Clothes shop, cobblers , TV repair shop, deli (where the Thai place is now). It was more of a shopping street than a row of restaurants and bars.

 The market area had more shops. A large bakery , Currys ( electrical goods) , travel agent and yes the original Tescos - later my favourite Kwiksave.


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## TruXta (Jun 1, 2011)

Cheers, Gramsci. One other thing - did Brixton as a whole have more shops around or was it more concentrated? My gut feeling would lean towards the former conclusion.


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## boohoo (Jun 1, 2011)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Well, it was the hay, sawdust, loose dog biscuits, bird feed etc that I miss. I don't particularly remember much in the way of animals except for kittens.



Was that the pet shop at the back of Brixton village (kind of where Brix box is now?) That was always a treat to persuade my mum to let us look at all the pets.


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## boohoo (Jun 1, 2011)

We had saxone & freeman & hardy willis, a bookshop and a pie and mash place. I think I mentioned C&As earlier. Bon Marche was on it's last legs as functioning as a store. Nationwide was in a different building. We also had Candy fashions.


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Jun 1, 2011)

Yes, that's the place.


----------



## Gramsci (Jun 1, 2011)

Cowley said:


> I've enjoyed reading your posts on this thread Gramsci.
> 
> I've browsed through the Schools thread a few times...it doesn't directly affect me as I no longer live in South Brixton, though it's an interesting read all the same. The same kind of discussions are rife in the part of Streatham I live in...it's the State v Church v Private argument, it's all about choices.
> 
> Brixton is now a very expensive place to buy a Property. It's marketed now to middle class type clientele with good incomes.



Thanks for that comment Cowley.

The same thing is happening in other parts of London. A friend of mine lived in Walthamstow for many years. She bought a small house. But it was difficult as every time the City boys got there bonuses etc the house prices went up in London. She realised that if she didnt do it soon she would not be able to .There is a ripple effect on prices from the centre. Its getting ridiculous. My friend is a journo and needed a place where she could work from home and have good transport links.

She also said she was competing with small developers who bought houses to turn into flats to rent. The market in rented properties has held up in London.

No party is willing to take on the City or those who do quite nicely ( small/big developers and Buy to Let people) out of this housing market in London.


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Jun 1, 2011)

Winot said:


> I'm amazed if people's delight in Brixton is shaken by a few shops closing, others opening, and a few more Claphamites being around. Suggests rather shallow foundations.


I'm talking about changes over three decades. Gramsci has been here longer than me, but we're talking the long view.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jun 1, 2011)

boohoo said:


> We had saxone & freeman & hardy willis, a bookshop and a pie and mash place. I think I mentioned C&As earlier. Bon Marche was on it's last legs as functioning as a store. Nationwide was in a different building. We also had Candy fashions.



I remember the old pie and mash shop and the tiles.

Don't forget Burton's and Dunn's


----------



## Gramsci (Jun 1, 2011)

TruXta said:


> Cheers, Gramsci. One other thing - did Brixton as a whole have more shops around or was it more concentrated? My gut feeling would lean towards the former conclusion.


 
Ur correct it had more shops around. 

See also BooHoo post as she grew up around here. Id forgotten about the pie and mash shop in CHL.


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## boohoo (Jun 1, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> I remember the old pie and mash shop and the tiles.
> 
> Don't forget Burton's and Dunn's



Where was burtons - or is it that site which was next to Dunns and then came the cheap shop? Do you remember the chinese shop in the alley way by the tube?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jun 1, 2011)

boohoo said:


> Where was burtons - or is it that site which was next to Dunns and then came the cheap shop? Do you remember the chinese shop in the alley way by the tube?


 

Yeah, I loved that Chinese shop.  I bought my sister a kimono there 25 years ago.  I also bought one of those little carvings in glass  

Later on, and further down, there was that candle shop


----------



## boohoo (Jun 1, 2011)

Woolworths, of course, H Samuels, and the jewellers under the bridge - Sanders but part of Ratners. Does anyone remember the vintage type clothing shop which was briefly in what is now Joy?

And another point, who remembers when Woolworths had 3 exits?


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## boohoo (Jun 1, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Yeah, I loved that Chinese shop.  I bought my sister a kimono there 25 years ago.  I also bought one of those little carvings in glass
> 
> Later on, and further down, there was that candle shop



we got my mum a little glass wind chime type thing from the Chinese shop it was cheap, but very pretty - And if we ran out of idea, we'd buy her incense from there.


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## Mrs Magpie (Jun 1, 2011)

Yes, it was great, that vintage shop...the name will come to me soon. I bought a really thick leather jerkin (£3!) there that I still use when cutting back brambles, pyracantha and the like.


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## Mrs Magpie (Jun 1, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Yeah, I loved that Chinese shop.  I bought my sister a kimono there 25 years ago.  I also bought one of those little carvings in glass


Kowloon Emporium. She gave me a lovely jade carving when Pip was born.


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## Gramsci (Jun 1, 2011)

As I said to a friend a lot of the "Hipsters" work in media which is very precarious living-- The new "Precariat". I bump into these people in Soho. They are actually ok. Quite liberal Though , as another friend says who works with a lot of them, many of them get by on allowances from there families. They are often from well heeled backgrounds.

But I wouldn't classify them as Yuppies in the Thatcherite sense.


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## Mrs Magpie (Jun 1, 2011)

boohoo said:


> the cheap shop?


Robills


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## bluestreak (Jun 1, 2011)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> I find it hard to believe someone who's currently in Lincolnshire would say that.


 
true, but i don't know what lincolnshire looked like ten years ago!


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## Mrs Magpie (Jun 1, 2011)

Mrs Magpie said:


> the name will come to me soon.


The Thrift Shop!


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## gavman (Jun 1, 2011)

teuchter said:


> Why do you love Brixton and why do you feel loyal to it?


 
it's probably the mountain views


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## Belushi (Jun 1, 2011)

bluestreak said:


> true, but i don't know what lincolnshire looked like ten years ago!


 
There were Mountains.

And Trees. Great forests that seemed to go on forever


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## Mrs Magpie (Jun 1, 2011)

boohoo said:


> a bookshop


Index Books, run by the WRP



boohoo said:


> and a pie and mash place.


Don't stand outside and be miserable, come inside and be fed up!


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jun 1, 2011)

boohoo said:


> Woolworths, of course, H Samuels, and the jewellers under the bridge - Sanders but part of Ratners. Does anyone remember the vintage type clothing shop which was briefly in what is now Joy?
> 
> And another point, who remembers when Woolworths had 3 exits?



You mean an exit on Coldharbour Lane?


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jun 1, 2011)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Kowloon Emporium. She gave me a lovely jade carving when Pip was born.


 
Lovely.  

And there was the key cutter's down there as well


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jun 1, 2011)

and who can forget Murray's Meat Market


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## Mrs Magpie (Jun 1, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Lovely.
> 
> And there was the key cutter's down there as well


...and the flower stall people had a great caff there. It was always promised they could move back when the station modernisation was finished.....they lied


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jun 1, 2011)

Mrs Magpie said:


> ...and the flower stall people had a great caff there. It was always promised they could move back when the station modernisation was finished.....they lied


 

Blimey, totally forgot about that cafe and I even went in there a few times!


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## Mrs Magpie (Jun 1, 2011)

George's. I loved that caff. Their coffee was always far better than in The Phoenix.


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## Winot (Jun 1, 2011)

Mrs Magpie said:


> I'm talking about changes over three decades. Gramsci has been here longer than me, but we're talking the long view.


 
Right, but you're still talking about shops. Not the most important thing in the world, imo.


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## boohoo (Jun 1, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> and who can forget Murray's Meat Market



Which made me remember the singer sewing shop ... can't quite make out the connection there!


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## boohoo (Jun 1, 2011)

Winot said:


> Right, but you're still talking about shops. Not the most important thing in the world, imo.


 
three decades ago, there wasn't many big supermarkets that offered everything you needed in one destination so all the small shops were important. Less car ownership so local was important.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jun 1, 2011)

boohoo said:


> Which made me remember the singer sewing shop ... can't quite make out the connection there!


 
and, I've just found a photo of further along, where Boots used to be, and now I remember Jeans City being on that side of the road!  Which is weird really, as I don't remember the Boots being further down.  Not sure I remember the Singer shop either

http://collage.cityoflondon.gov.uk/collage/app?service=external/Item&sp=Z%22Brixton+Road%22&sp=88867&sp=X


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## Mrs Magpie (Jun 1, 2011)

Winot said:


> Right, but you're still talking about shops. Not the most important thing in the world, imo.


Well, if you're on a low income with several kids, it often is very important. I used to walk round the market twice before buying anything because every penny really counted and if you wanted to feed them enough every day, it really mattered. Still does for a lot of people. My kids are grown up now so I have more disposable income than I did.


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## boohoo (Jun 1, 2011)

I don't remember Boots being there - as far as I remember, it was where it is now. The singer shop was around the corner from the current Boots.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jun 1, 2011)

Mrs Magpie said:


> George's. I loved that caff. Their coffee was always far better than in The Phoenix.



You've got a great memory for names Mrs M


for a nonagenarian


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## Mrs Magpie (Jun 1, 2011)

Yes it was where the sort of pound shop is now, round the side of Boots.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jun 1, 2011)

boohoo said:


> I don't remember Boots being there - as far as I remember, it was where it is now. The singer shop was around the corner from the current Boots.


 
That picture's dated 1974.  Were you in Brixton then?

What about Jeans City?  Do you remember that?


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## boohoo (Jun 1, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> That picture's dated 1974.  Were you in Brixton then?
> 
> What about Jeans City?  Do you remember that?



No, we arrived in Brixton/Stockwell area when i was about 4 & 1/2 so about 1977.

Don't remember jean city - if it wasn't a charity shop, then we wouldn't have gone in it!  Me and my siblings use to ask my mum if we could stand outside banardos as we didn't want anyone from school to see us!


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## Mrs Magpie (Jun 1, 2011)

I remember Jeans City, but not where it was.


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## Mrs Magpie (Jun 1, 2011)

To be honest I'd forgotten a lot about what it was like years ago but boohoo's sister's animated film really jogged my memory about what it was like to live here then and loads of memories flooded back....she should show it round Old Folk's homes as a memory therapy!


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jun 1, 2011)

Mrs Magpie said:


> I remember Jeans City, but not where it was.


 

I'm starting to wonder if there was another jeans shop along from where the current one is?  I *know* there were *two* jeans shops


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jun 1, 2011)

Here's Burton's for you Boohoo

http://collage.cityoflondon.gov.uk/collage/app?service=external/Item&sp=Z%22Brixton+Road%22&sp=88932&sp=X


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## Mrs Magpie (Jun 1, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> I *know* there were *two* jeans shops


 You're right, but I just can't remember where.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jun 1, 2011)

Mrs Magpie said:


> You're right, but I just can't remember where.


 

It was either where it is in that picture I posted (ie. the *opposite* side of the road, or it may have been a few doors away from where the current one is


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jun 1, 2011)

London Electricity Board shop.  Anyone remember that?  I bought my fridge from there.


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## Mrs Magpie (Jun 1, 2011)

Yes, and do you remember the Gas Showroom? The Fridge club (formerly the Ram Jam Club) was originally down some stairs under the gas showroom. My mate Les decorated the old Fridge interior and hung all the old fridges from the ceiling.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jun 1, 2011)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Yes, and do you remember the Gas Showroom? The Fridge club (formerly the Ram Jam Club) was originally down some stairs under the gas showroom. My mate Les decorated the old Fridge interior and hung all the old fridges from the ceiling.


, 

No, but probably, like Singer, I had no interest as I had an electric cooker, so probably didn't notice it!

I remember when The Fridge had real fridges up there though, not just those plasticky looking doors


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## Mrs Magpie (Jun 1, 2011)

I'm talking about when the Fridge was down the road, past the police station


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jun 1, 2011)

Mrs Magpie said:


> I'm talking about when the Fridge was down the road, past the police station



Ah right.  *Past* the police station?

oh, I'm thinking other side of the road, Amazonica strip of buildings?


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jun 1, 2011)

hang on, that's not right is it.

Iceland area?

I'm lost


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## Mrs Magpie (Jun 1, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Ah right.  *Past* the police station?
> 
> oh, I'm thinking other side of the road, Amazonica strip of buildings?


Yes.


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## Mrs Magpie (Jun 1, 2011)

In fact under Amazonica I think


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jun 1, 2011)

Mrs Magpie said:


> In fact under Amazonica I think


 

Vaguely

Didn't really go that far down Brixton Road


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## TruXta (Jun 1, 2011)

boohoo said:


> three decades ago, there wasn't many big supermarkets that offered everything you needed in one destination so all the small shops were important. Less car ownership so local was important.


 
This was true even when I grew up in semi-rural Norway in the 70s and 80s. Not to mention the towns. My local town centre is now home mainly to a couple of massive underground car parks, two or three enormous shopping centres and a slowly rotting old core which is either left to the shadier segments of society, or knocked down and turned into upper-m/c apartment blocks. OTOH they say Oslo now is miles better than the Oslo of the 70s-80s.


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## boohoo (Jun 2, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> I'm starting to wonder if there was another jeans shop along from where the current one is?  I *know* there were *two* jeans shops



I'm sure the jean shop by plan b is in the same place from when I was a kid.


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## boohoo (Jun 2, 2011)

Mrs Magpie said:


> To be honest I'd forgotten a lot about what it was like years ago but boohoo's sister's animated film really jogged my memory about what it was like to live here then and loads of memories flooded back....she should show it round Old Folk's homes as a memory therapy!



I'll tell her!  Your story about going around the market several times before buying things reminds me of shopping with my mum. It was lots of queueing and all your veg would probably go in the same carrier or sometimes a brown bag. We would all hold onto each others coat tails so that we would not get lost. My mum did manage to lose my brother once - he queued next to the wrong lady!


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## Winot (Jun 2, 2011)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Well, if you're on a low income with several kids, it often is very important. I used to walk round the market twice before buying anything because every penny really counted and if you wanted to feed them enough every day, it really mattered. Still does for a lot of people. My kids are grown up now so I have more disposable income than I did.


 
I can understand that.  To what extent do you think the changes to Brixton's shops are the result of socioeconomoic changes which have affected all areas of the country, and to what extent are they due to localised gentrification? For example, the proportion of income which is spent on food and clothes has gone down over the years, so perhaps the point you make isn't the issue it once was.  Also boohoo's comment about the rise of supermarkets is no doubt important.

And to what extent are the changes to shops emblematic of your discomfort at an area changing? To be honest, it reminds me a bit of my grandparents complaining about the 'foreign' shops appearing in Tottenham in the late 1950s.

I'm posting this from Kendal, by the way, which I can report has haberdashers and bad coffee.


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## Ms T (Jun 2, 2011)

boohoo said:


> Woolworths, of course, H Samuels, and the jewellers under the bridge - Sanders but part of Ratners. Does anyone remember the vintage type clothing shop which was briefly in what is now Joy?
> 
> And another point, who remembers when Woolworths had 3 exits?


 
Yes!  I bought an ace leather jacket from there which I wore for years.


----------



## Ms T (Jun 2, 2011)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Robills


 
Goes all misty eyed.  I loved that shop.


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## Ms T (Jun 2, 2011)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Yes, and do you remember the Gas Showroom? The Fridge club (formerly the Ram Jam Club) was originally down some stairs under the gas showroom. My mate Les decorated the old Fridge interior and hung all the old fridges from the ceiling.


 
I remember renting our telly from a place on Electric Avenue.  Noone rents tellies any more!


----------



## Ms T (Jun 2, 2011)

To be honest, much of my delight at living in Brixton is based on the people I know here.  Have made lots of lovely friends in the past 18 (18!) years.


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## Mrs Magpie (Jun 2, 2011)

boohoo said:


> My mum did manage to lose my brother once - he queued next to the wrong lady!


My little sister went missing on a shopping trip once. A woman brought her back to my frantic Mum and my little sister was wailing "I followed the wrong legs!".


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## Mrs Magpie (Jun 2, 2011)

Winot said:


> And to what extent are the changes to shops emblematic of your discomfort at an area changing? To be honest, it reminds me a bit of my grandparents complaining about the 'foreign' shops appearing in Tottenham in the late 1950s.


Our complaint is a lot of the 'foreign' shops are disappearing and faceless chains are coming in so it's the other way around for us. Look for the Nour thread (which thankfully seems to be staying despite a whacking £10,000 pound 'backdated rent increase')


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## Mrs Magpie (Jun 2, 2011)

Winot said:


> to what extent are they due to localised gentrification


This is the main problem. Rents are shooting up and little places can't afford it. My rent has shot up over the last two years as well (over 20%). Also the difference in price with rising food prices doesn't help. Also my income has gone down drastically. I was in a different job 10 years ago that paid more. My money has £100 a month left over after the rent is paid. My husband's salary has remained static for a long time. I'm slightly better off though because two of my children have left home (the youngest moved back and he's earning much less than he did 3 years ago). Supermarket veg is much more expensive than in the market. The market traders complain that they can't get the quality of veg that they used to because supermarkets get first dibs.


edited to add...my memory is playing tricks...up to 1996 was a lot longer than ten years ago


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## peterkro (Jun 2, 2011)

I thought the original Fridge was on the first floor (it may have been in the basement as well I don't remember).I seem to recollect a C&A (as in the man at) somewhere near Jean City as well. The fibreglass mouldings of fridges at the big Fridge are relatively recent for a long time they were actual fridges.


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## Mrs Magpie (Jun 2, 2011)

The original Fridge was in a completely different building.


----------



## peterkro (Jun 2, 2011)

Aah,have I got this right,it was originally under the Gas showroom but then moved to the space above the Youngs the DIY shop before moving up by the townhall? (you need to remember the 70's and 80's are a bit hazy to me now)


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## Mrs Magpie (Jun 2, 2011)

If there was a middle stage between the gas showroom and the old cinema I don't remember it but it would have coincided with me having babies and not going clubbing anymore.


----------



## peterkro (Jun 2, 2011)

Mrs Magpie said:


> If there was a middle stage between the gas showroom and the old cinema I don't remember it but it would have coincided with me having babies and not going clubbing anymore.



It's all a bit confusing,I defiantly remember it on the first floor above what is now the barbershop/market/restauranty place.I remember the Ace when it showed Kung Fu movies and then for a short while it was a roller disco before becoming the Fridge, I worked there for a few years so I know that building like the back of my hand.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jun 2, 2011)

peterkro said:


> The fibreglass mouldings of fridges at the big Fridge are relatively recent for a long time they were actual fridges.


 
The real fridges were much better.  Those fibreglass ones look shit


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jun 2, 2011)

boohoo said:


> I'm sure the jean shop by plan b is in the same place from when I was a kid.



Yes it is, but there was another jeans shop.  Jeans City is shown in one of the pictures I posted and it's diagonally opposite Jeans Corner, but I'm not sure if that's the one I remember.  I definitely remember two places in very close proximity


----------



## eroom (Jun 2, 2011)

Speaking of jeans - wasn't there a Dickie Dirts too? 

I recall my dad dragging me round one fairly regularly in the early 80s and I always remember it as being Brixton, though we weren't living here at the time so i may be wrong.


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## Mrs Magpie (Jun 2, 2011)

Dickie Dirts was in an old cinema in Camberwell. Now demolished.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jun 2, 2011)

eroom said:


> Speaking of jeans - wasn't there a Dickie Dirts too?
> 
> I recall my dad dragging me round one fairly regularly in the early 80s and I always remember it as being Brixton, though we weren't living here at the time so i may be wrong.


 

Yeah, always used to drive past there with my grandfather and every time he said, "they'll go bust one day selling jeans that cheap"


----------



## eroom (Jun 2, 2011)

Ah Camberwell was it? Yeah that makes sense.

My eight-year-old self thought Dickie Dirts was impossibly glamorous: combining cinema, denim and dark corners.

Suspect it was anything but glamorous.

Apologies for going off-topic geographically - the nostalgia took hold.


----------



## gaijingirl (Jun 2, 2011)

I have a similar memory of Dickie Dirts.. I remember being so excited when my Dad took us there - I was probably about the same age too.


----------



## miss minnie (Jun 2, 2011)

peterkro said:


> It's all a bit confusing,I defiantly remember it on the first floor above what is now the barbershop/market/restauranty place.I remember the Ace when it showed Kung Fu movies and then for a short while it was a roller disco before becoming the Fridge, I worked there for a few years so I know that building like the back of my hand.


Old Fridge was definitely on the first floor and had a room upstairs known as the Ice Box.  At no point was it in the basement as I recall.


----------



## teuchter (Jun 2, 2011)

So this thread has now degenerated into a reminiscence session for U75's most ancient posters.


----------



## gaijingirl (Jun 2, 2011)

I'm not cocking ancient just yet you cheeky sod...


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jun 2, 2011)

eroom said:


> Ah Camberwell was it? Yeah that makes sense.
> 
> My eight-year-old self thought Dickie Dirts was impossibly glamorous: combining cinema, denim and dark corners.
> 
> ...


 
You forget incredibly cheap!


----------



## eroom (Jun 2, 2011)

Eight-year-old self didn't realise it was incredibly cheap: just exciting. 

Now I know how cheap it was my dad's sudden enthusiasm for it becomes clearer.

Actually - to get back on topic - my dad worked in Lambeth town hall throughout the late 70s early 80s (picture him in his cheap ill-fitting denim) and always claims Brixton stopped being fun sometime around 1980.


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Jun 2, 2011)

I just want to point out that my moving to Brixton had nothing whatsoever with eroom's Dad feeling a sense of ennui as I didn't move here till early 1981.


----------



## MellySingsDoom (Jun 2, 2011)

gaijingirl said:


> I have a similar memory of Dickie Dirts.. I remember being so excited when my Dad took us there - I was probably about the same age too.



I remember Dickie Dirts too!  Although I was living with me mum and stepdad in Milton Keynes at the time, my Dad took me there one time to buy some jeans for me - there used to be load of ads on Capital Radio for them, I remember, and I thought the store way cool as well....also remember the furniture store Scallywag in Camberwell too - wonder what happened to that?

My first memory of Brixton was going to see the first Muppets movie with my sister and Dad at the Ritzy (was it called the Ritzy then?) in the late 70's - remember liking the big screen and stuff...went back years later (when living in Croydon) to see a David Cronenberg all-nighter, and fell in love with the place again.  It's v nice having the Ritzy and the Picture House round my way 

As for Brixton changing?  Well, I remember the days of the 121 Centre, rehearsing at a bunker recording studio off Coldharbour Lane, visiting the Hero of Switzerland pub, which did a great pint of Guinness, and cycling round Brixton with a guitar on my back, returning home after a very late night music session.  I also remember the pub which preceded the Dogstar (the Atlantic???), and told not to go in there due to very dubious business (didn't it get firebombed at one point?), and various geezers hanging around with unseemly intent...Brixton to me has changed over the years of course, but I wouldn't personally say it's lost its vibe or what have you, or been invaded by out-of-towners - which you can certainly say to a greater degree about Clapham, I think.


----------



## Streathamite (Jun 2, 2011)

TruXta said:


> Maybe all the pets got et in the 80s?


nope, my pet-eating project only started in the 90s


----------



## Badgers (Jun 2, 2011)

Windrush Square has a fair turnout today. 
Barely an empty seat on the chairs but the turd is pretty empty.


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## editor (Jun 2, 2011)

Badgers said:


> Windrush Square has a fair turnout today.
> Barely an empty seat on the chairs but the turd is pretty empty.


The place has been considerably improved by the Ritzy shunting a shedload of chairs by the tree so people have got somewhere to sit.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jun 2, 2011)

eroom said:


> Eight-year-old self didn't realise it was incredibly cheap: just exciting.
> 
> Now I know how cheap it was my dad's sudden enthusiasm for it becomes clearer.
> 
> Actually - to get back on topic - my dad worked in Lambeth town hall throughout the late 70s early 80s (picture him in his cheap ill-fitting denim) and always claims Brixton stopped being fun sometime around 1980.



Yeah, I think I remember it sold Levis for under £10.  I always wished my grandfather would take us in there but he didn't like jeans on ladies so it never happened.

I remember it had a huge sign outside as well


----------



## teuchter (Jun 2, 2011)

gaijingirl said:


> I'm not cocking ancient just yet you *cheeky sod*...


 
Trademark ancient person turn of phrase.


----------



## TruXta (Jun 2, 2011)

teuchter said:


> So this thread has now degenerated into a reminiscence session for U75's most ancient posters.


 
I think I might be slightly to blame for this, if you look about 150 posts back I asked "were there many other shops in Brixton in ye olden days". Question answered I should think. 

By the by, is it possible that one could geo-tag, map, or otherwise geographically index all these memories onto something? It'd be cool to know, walking past say the Footlocker (vile place btw), that back in the days this was so and so shop.


----------



## eroom (Jun 3, 2011)

I think what's happened is that this thread has gradually become gentrified.


----------



## netbob (Jun 3, 2011)

I'm finding the brixton village twitter account increasing depressing - it's as though the older business don't exist: http://twitter.com/#!/BrixtonVillage


----------



## editor (Jun 3, 2011)

T'is a different world indeed.


----------



## quimcunx (Jun 3, 2011)

who runs the twitter account?


----------



## netbob (Jun 3, 2011)

That's what I've been trying to find out:

http://twitter.com/#!/memespring/status/76571243695964161
http://twitter.com/#!/memespring/status/76571973337104384

No reply though, maybe they need a bit more polite nudging?


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## bosie (Jun 3, 2011)

i have to say, with Brixton Village at least, I haven't seen anything transform as quickly, ever, as it has. New burger place opening, Japanese, Thai etc.. the place won't be recognisable soon. Have any of the 'old' places shut down or are they all still surviving at the moment? That would be a real shame, it's one thing new businesses joining them but if they start to replace the existing businesses it will have gone a step too far IMO.


----------



## netbob (Jun 3, 2011)

bosie said:


> i have to say, with Brixton Village at least, I haven't seen anything transform as quickly, ever, as it has. New burger place opening, Japanese, Thai etc.. the place won't be recognisable soon. Have any of the 'old' places shut down or are they all still surviving at the moment? That would be a real shame, it's one thing new businesses joining them but if they start to replace the existing businesses it will have gone a step too far IMO.



The owners have been putting up rent for old businesses (retrospectively). Several have gone out of business of cut down in size.


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## gaijingirl (Jun 3, 2011)

It is amazing how fast it's changed isn't it.  Incredible really.


----------



## Ms T (Jun 3, 2011)

What's also incredible is the number of people who supposedly live in Brixton who hadn't ever visited the place until recently.  I've overheard several people say that they didn't even know it existed.  Weren't they ever remotely curious of what lay behind the big iron gates on CHL, or beyond the entrance on Atlantic Rd.  

As for the old businesses - the fishmongers, the Colombian butcher, the Indian/Pakistani (?) grocery store, the African shop, the fabric place are all stil there.  Some of the new businesses have already left - the Filipina lady, for example.  I'm sorry about that, because she was lovely and her food was delicious.

The creative director of Browns fashion was in Brixton Village last night - she bought something from my friend's shop!


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## Pickman's model (Jun 3, 2011)

Gramsci said:


> What is Gentrification? Is it some inevitable process that cant be stopped? ( See link I put up to book on gentrification)


gentrification is the process by which a working class neighbourhood sees large numbers of working class people depart as homes and amenities become oriented to an interloping middle class population. ruth glass coined the term in the 1960s. 






			
				ruth class said:
			
		

> One by one, many of the working class neighborhoods of London have been invaded by the middle-classes — upper and lower. Shabby, modest mews and cottages — two rooms up and two down — have been taken over, when their leases have expired, and have become elegant, expensive residences ... Once this process of 'gentrification' starts in a district it goes on rapidly, until all or most of the original working-class occupiers are displaced and the whole social character of the district is changed.


although it's not an inexorable process that can't be stopped, it's quite insidious because in its early stages it isn't that obvious unless you know what you're looking for. for example, hackney used to be famous for the number of artists in the borough. but the presence of arty, bohemian types is often a precursor to gentrification - look at hoxton, for example. these bohemians are the vanguard. but gentrification's also like imperialism, like colonialism. you'll read about places being discovered - when, of course, there is already an indigenous population. 



> Is it inevitable that house prices go up? Is home ownership even desirable? See here another excellant article by Owen Hatherley:
> 
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/may/31/home-ownership-debt-renting


it's of course not inevitable house prices increase: but it is a predictable aspect of the process. as for home ownership, perhaps a question for another thread.



> Is there a way to retain an areas social and racial mix whilst allowing for change?


oh dear. oh dear. which racial mix do you wish to retain? brixton 1960? brixton 1970? brixton 1980? and what sort of change do you mean? there is no way to retain that - look at eg whitechapel between (say) 1950 and 2000 and the changes there. an area can change its poopulation without necessarily changing its class mix.



> How can people have control of what happens in there area instead of assuming that its part of some process that just happens?


with difficulty


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## eroom (Jun 3, 2011)

I think the thing that bothers people about Brixton Village is that it feels like a hot-house version of what is happening to the rest of Brixton.

I don't think that's actually the case though. 

I think what happening in BV is the result of a specific (and successful in my book) attempt to regenerate a struggling area. I also think it's a bit of a bubble: give it a year or so and the explosion of start-ups will have tailed off leaving only the decent business propositions that appeal to both locals and tourists - and, hopefully, the majority of the better businesses that have been there for ages.


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## teuchter (Jun 3, 2011)

eroom said:


> I think the thing that bothers people about Brixton Village is that it feels like a hot-house version of what is happening to the rest of Brixton.
> 
> I don't think that's actually the case though.
> 
> I think what happening in BV is the result of a specific (and successful in my book) attempt to regenerate a struggling area.


 
It's a specific and successful attempt to attract higher-rent paying businesses to the Granville Arcade.


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## netbob (Jun 3, 2011)

From their annual report 


> Since late 2009, we have invested considerable time and effort in establishing our two Brixton markets  as cutting edge retail and leisure locations. Initially we worked with a specialist marketing company to offer pop-up shops to entice new retailers into a location that had suffered over
> the years from high vacancies and low investment. The vast majority
> of these early retailers converted into full leases at market rents at the end of their trial periods.  Once we had established a critical mass of new exciting retailers, word of mouth and positive press articles created suffi cient  interest to  ensure that these markets are now fully let for the fi rst time in approximately 20 years.
> 
> ...



http://www.lap.co.uk/downloads/lap10.pdf

(ignores the fact they made no attempt to let units during the period they were planning to pull the whole place down, and point to the idea they are trying to raise rents)


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jun 3, 2011)

eroom said:


> I think the thing that bothers people about Brixton Village is that it feels like a hot-house version of what is happening to the rest of Brixton.
> 
> I don't think that's actually the case though.
> 
> I think what happening in BV is the result of a specific (and successful in my book) attempt to regenerate a struggling area. I also think it's a bit of a bubble: give it a year or so and the explosion of start-ups will have tailed off leaving only the *decent business propositions that appeal to both locals and tourists* - and, hopefully, the majority of the better businesses that have been there for ages.



Do you mean the richer middle class locals?


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## editor (Jun 3, 2011)

Look who's coming to Brixton!
http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/threads/349916-TK-Maxx-coming-to-Brixton


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## Gramsci (Jun 3, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> gentrification is the process by which a working class neighbourhood sees large numbers of working class people depart as homes and amenities become oriented to an interloping middle class population. ruth glass coined the term in the 1960s. although it's not an inexorable process that can't be stopped, it's quite insidious because in its early stages it isn't that obvious unless you know what you're looking for. for example, hackney used to be famous for the number of artists in the borough. but the presence of arty, bohemian types is often a precursor to gentrification - look at hoxton, for example. these bohemians are the vanguard. but gentrification's also like imperialism, like colonialism. you'll read about places being discovered - when, of course, there is already an indigenous population.
> 
> it's of course not inevitable house prices increase: but it is a predictable aspect of the process. as for home ownership, perhaps a question for another thread.
> 
> ...



However in the case of Brixton it had a "boho" element from the start. As it was a place actors and those who worked in West end Theatreland. They found it a convenient place to live due to railway giving easy access to West End.

So it can hardly be said that a "boho"element arrived later who were  vanguard for gentrification. I remember a friend of mine who was squatting old Council flat. One of his (friendly ) Council tenant neighbours was elderly gent who had lived in Brixton for years and had worked in Theatreland.

Property ownership and speculative development for profit is integral part of gentrification. There is a legacy from 60s and 70s of Council house building by a Labour party who believed in expanding affordable rented housing. However imperfect that was.

No more. Property has increasingly become , since Thatchers time, a speculative wealth creator.

I was asking the question not trying to give answer on racial mix. Its an interesting but fraught topic.

After all part of the reason that the covered market was given listed status is due to its importance to Afro Carribean heritage. Which was fairly recent in the covered markets history. Changes in racial mix arent necessarily connected to gentrification. I have a lot of East European friends and they certainly are not gentrifiers. They have come to London only in the past few years.


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## Gramsci (Jun 3, 2011)

memespring said:


> From their annual report
> 
> 
> http://www.lap.co.uk/downloads/lap10.pdf
> ...



http://twitter.com/#!/BrixtonVillage

Thanks for that info. Ur right the Twitter ignores the remaining shops which are not "cutting edge retail".


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## Belushi (Jun 3, 2011)

Brixton and Streatham were both very popular with theatre types pre-war.  Streatham Cemetery has a 'Variety Artistes Corner' where hundred of them are buried.


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## Cid (Jun 5, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> gentrification is the process by which a working class neighbourhood sees large numbers of working class people depart as homes and amenities become oriented to an interloping middle class population. ruth glass coined the term in the 1960s. although it's not an inexorable process that can't be stopped, it's quite insidious because in its early stages it isn't that obvious unless you know what you're looking for. for example, hackney used to be famous for the number of artists in the borough. but the presence of arty, bohemian types is often a precursor to gentrification - look at hoxton, for example. these bohemians are the vanguard. but gentrification's also like imperialism, like colonialism. you'll read about places being discovered - when, of course, there is already an indigenous population.



But gentrification isn't as simple as m/c moving to w/c neighbourhoods because they become trendy... A big part of it is always going to be the fundamental change in the nature of employment over the last 40 years or so. Back in the '60s and '70s there was still an industrial base in London, you obviously get a strong w/c community around that but we've changed to a service economy. The nature of industries that remained changed fundamentally too, so you see the great markets moving to newer facilities with better access to transport infrastructure (Billingsgate, New Covent Garden), Smithfields being the only one that stuck around. It's particularly obvious to us in Shoreditch of course, but the same thing happened in Covent garden; the bottom falls out of the industry located there (or in CG's case the market has to move for practical reasons) and the nature of the community changes completely. Unskilled labour just isn't found as much in the centre of cities anymore, you can stick call centres, admin blocks etc wherever the hell you feel like it. 

Once an area is on the decline property prices plummet and you get young people on the up who need to live fairly centrally for their work buying or renting... Once they've established a bit of a 'scene' more people follow, property prices rise and you have a gentrified area. You can see the alternative in most cities; derelict warehouses, empty streets etc. It's similar to the second-homification of the countryside, it's not just because rich people want a rural pad, it's because pretty large amounts of farming are now automated; a farm that employed 50 now employs 5, suddenly you have a lot of unemployed people looking to sell their homes and move to new labour markets.



Gramsci said:


> However in the case of Brixton it had a "boho" element from the start. As it was a place actors and those who worked in West end Theatreland. They found it a convenient place to live due to railway giving easy access to West End.
> 
> So it can hardly be said that a "boho"element arrived later who were  vanguard for gentrification. I remember a friend of mine who was squatting old Council flat. One of his (friendly ) Council tenant neighbours was elderly gent who had lived in Brixton for years and had worked in Theatreland.



But you wouldn't be able to get cheap property/have a lot of squatting in an area with plenty of employment.



> Property ownership and speculative development for profit is integral part of gentrification. There is a legacy from 60s and 70s of Council house building by a Labour party who believed in expanding affordable rented housing. However imperfect that was.
> 
> No more. Property has increasingly become , since Thatchers time, a speculative wealth creator.



Yes, but the whole point in speculative development is to predict trends... Many a developer has fallen fowl of thinking they can buy up land and simply make an area popular.

It's a feedback loop to an extent of course, but I suppose what I'm saying is that gentrification is a symptom of changes in the labour market... The only way you stop it is by having something in the area that can sustain a local community, or by reforming the economy.


----------



## trabuquera (Jun 5, 2011)

Normally I sit gentrification threads out 'cos I just end up shrugging and thinking 'So? why shouldn't we in SW9 have nice things?' - but this afternoon I just got my first flicker of agreement that things might be on the turn (like a carton of rancid milk hehehe) when I overheard this from some hipster strolling past Feds:

"ooooOOOOooo, it's like the Brick Lane of Brixton down here"


worst thing was, it was said in a tone of genuine excitement and admiration. i had a funny sort of stabby feeling and if I wasn't dangerously close to a gentrifier myself that would have been a whole new postcode war right there.
cheeky sod.


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## teuchter (Jun 5, 2011)

trabuquera said:


> Normally I sit gentrification threads out 'cos I just end up shrugging and thinking 'So? why shouldn't we in SW9 have nice things?' - but this afternoon I just got my first flicker of agreement that things might be on the turn (like a carton of rancid milk hehehe) when I overheard this from some hipster strolling past Feds:
> 
> "ooooOOOOooo, it's like the Brick Lane of Brixton down here"


 
Yeah, this is the point that most people are not getting on this thread. It's not just about gentrification which has been a longstanding gradual process. It's a sudden lurch towards a certain kind of change and that's exactly where it's heading, the Brick Lane/Spitalfields route.


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## magneze (Jun 5, 2011)

So, these "hipsters" ... have they moved from the East or are they a new batch?


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## editor (Jun 5, 2011)

Gramsci said:


> However in the case of Brixton it had a "boho" element from the start. As it was a place actors and those who worked in West end Theatreland. They found it a convenient place to live due to railway giving easy access to West End.


Indeed. Brixton's 'boho' connections stretch back to Edwardian times, where apparently the expression, "are you married or do you live in Brixton?" was popular?!


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## Mrs Magpie (Jun 6, 2011)

Even before then. It had theatrical connections way back in the 1850s. My great-great uncle and great-great grandfather who were from a theatre family were sent to school just off Brixton Hill.


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## teuchter (Jun 6, 2011)

Mrs Magpie said:


> My great-great uncle and great-great grandfather who were from a theatre family were sent to school just off Brixton Hill.


 
Are you related to John Major?


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## Mrs Magpie (Jun 6, 2011)

Fuck off! NO!


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## Winot (Jun 6, 2011)

teuchter said:


> Yeah, this is the point that most people are not getting on this thread. It's not just about gentrification which has been a longstanding gradual process. It's a sudden lurch towards a certain kind of change and that's exactly where it's heading, the Brick Lane/Spitalfields route.


 
I agree that the change in Brixton Village (and to a lesser extent, Market Row) has been very quick.  I've been living in Brixton since 1995 and although I have seen a gradual process as you describe, it has been a bit up and down.  On its own terms, the Spacemakers project seems to have been an extraordinary success.  

I think you are being a touch pessimistic though if you think this is the start of an inexorable slide towards homogeneity.  First, a lot of the new businesses in BV have used empty units.  That part of the market has been dead for years.  Secondly, the new businesses are small, independent concerns offering (to my mind) a great service, not faceless chains.  For the last 16 years I have, with some exceptions (RIP 20 Trinity Gardens, Versailles, Helter Skelter) eaten outside of Brixton.  These days I eat in the Market at least once a week, and that's better food at less cost than in other locations.

I do recognise the broader concerns that people have (for example the Nour issues), but I don't think that decrying the presence of the likes of Federation Coffee, Franco Manca & Cornercopia is the answer.


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## Winot (Jun 6, 2011)

One other point: the sudden lurch has been confined to the covered market, no?

Meanwhile, in other news, a music venue frequented by hipsters closes down and is replaced by a TKMaxx.


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## twistedAM (Jun 6, 2011)

Winot said:


> One other point: the sudden lurch has been confined to the covered market, no?
> 
> Meanwhile, in other news, a music venue frequented by hipsters closes down and is replaced by a TKMaxx.



Hipsters are alright. Looks like we have loads of food hipsters anyway.


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## ska invita (Jun 6, 2011)

Im not sure Brixton has changed in anyway differently from the rest of the country - more a cultural shift than a gentrification thing IMO


----------



## Cowley (Jun 6, 2011)

Gramsci said:


> Thanks for that comment Cowley.
> 
> The same thing is happening in other parts of London. A friend of mine lived in Walthamstow for many years. She bought a small house. But it was difficult as every time the City boys got there bonuses etc the house prices went up in London. She realised that if she didnt do it soon she would not be able to .There is a ripple effect on prices from the centre. Its getting ridiculous. My friend is a journo and needed a place where she could work from home and have good transport links.
> 
> ...


 
You're welcome re: the comment.

Yeah HPI (House Price Inflation) has skewed many folks opinion on areas and given Estate Agents a convenient excuse to talk up areas. There are many areas in London that have doubled/tripled in price over the past 10 years despite those said areas not improving, be they improvements in schools/transport/infrastructure/amenities. 

In fact some of these areas have declined even though prices have risen...due to the ripple effect which you have described.

Gentrification is a very complex subject IMHO, different folks want different things of an area and whilst change can be very beneficial to some sections of the community it doesn't necessarily mean it will be beneficial to all.


----------



## mwareing1 (Jun 6, 2011)

Cowley said:


> You're welcome re: the comment.
> 
> Yeah HPI (House Price Inflation) has skewed many folks opinion on areas and given Estate Agents a convenient excuse to talk up areas. There are many areas in London that have doubled/tripled in price over the past 10 years despite those said areas not improving, be they improvements in schools/transport/infrastructure/amenities.
> 
> ...




Very well put.


----------



## editor (Jun 6, 2011)

ska invita said:


> Im not sure Brixton has changed in anyway differently from the rest of the country - more a cultural shift than a gentrification thing IMO


Many dodgy old pubs would seem posh as fuck to drinkers teleporting in from the 1970s. Ditto cafes, clothes stores etc.


----------



## Gramsci (Jun 6, 2011)

Cid said:


> But gentrification isn't as simple as m/c moving to w/c neighbourhoods because they become trendy... A big part of it is always going to be the fundamental change in the nature of employment over the last 40 years or so. Back in the '60s and '70s there waase in London, you obviously get a strong w/c community around that but we've changed to a service economy. The nature of industries that remained cs still an industrial bhanged fundamentally too, so you see the great markets moving to newer facilities with better access to transport infrastructure (Billingsgate, New Covent Garden), Smithfields being the only one that stuck around. It's particularly obvious to us in Shoreditch of course, but the same thing happened in Covent garden; the bottom falls out of the industry located there (or in CG's case the market has to move for practical reasons) and the nature of the community changes completely. Unskilled labour just isn't found as much in the centre of cities anymore, you can stick call centres, admin blocks etc wherever the hell you feel like it.
> 
> Once an area is on the decline property prices plummet and you get young people on the up who need to live fairly centrally for their work buying or renting... Once they've established a bit of a 'scene' more people follow, property prices rise and you have a gentrified area. You can see the alternative in most cities; derelict warehouses, empty streets etc. It's similar to the second-homification of the countryside, it's not just because rich people want a rural pad, it's because pretty large amounts of farming are now automated; a farm that employed 50 now employs 5, suddenly you have a lot of unemployed people looking to sell their homes and move to new labour markets.
> 
> ...



I think you make a good point about changes in labour market and gentrification.And the need to reform the economy.

It is correct to say that the traditional W/C jobs in London- printers , dockers and market porters have almost gone. At the point they were going the workers had finally got themselves good wages. I remember talking to old Dockers and market porters about this.

A lot of the squatting in London was due to Councils CPO property and emptying it out for vast schemes of "slum clearance" that never went ahead. This was particularly true of Brixton. It was not about lack of jobs. It was , in the eyes of the Labour party of the time, about giving working people decent housing and amenities. By late 70s that utopian vision fell on hard times leaving a lot of empty properties.

Also I grew up in a working class area with high employment. The housing was relatively cheap and available if substandard.

I disagree with you about the service economy in London that has replaced the traditional working class jobs. The newer service jobs are all over central London. Who makes the cappuchino, cleans the office, sweeps the streets, shop assistants, receptionists etc etc? The working class never went away it just changed. 

I agree with you about reforming the economy. In London it needs to be made to benefit the great majority of Londoners. At the moment London works for the benefit of the City bankers and the multicultural super rich elite who like living in London. All we get is crumbs off the rich mans table whilst keeping the city functioning for these people.


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## Crispy (Jun 6, 2011)

London has a chronic housing problem (of multiple causes) that is compounded by our distaste for dense, mid/high-rise housing. London needs to be twice as dense to be compared with other major European cities (not to mention worldwide). Our creaking metro rail and underground just can't cope with such a sparse city. Instead of turning family homes into commuter flats, we should be building (and living in) taller buildings, closer to the center and major transport interchanges.


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## leanderman (Jun 7, 2011)

... all backed up by the TUC report today that showed wages in 'working-class' occupations had flatlined in real terms from 1978-2008 while those for doctors have risen by 150 per cent and for lawyers by 100 per cent. The bankers probably did even better.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jun 7, 2011)

Crispy said:


> London has a chronic housing problem (of multiple causes) that is compounded by our distaste for dense, mid/high-rise housing.


 
I'm not sure it's so much that as a distaste for shit, poorly designed, badly lit, muggers' paradise type of estates


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## Crispy (Jun 7, 2011)

The sort of which haven't been build for decades


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## teuchter (Jun 7, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> I'm not sure it's so much that as a distaste for shit, poorly designed, badly lit, muggers' paradise type of estates


 
It's not just that, it's a long-standing and peculiarly English obsession with having your own front door.


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## editor (Jun 7, 2011)

teuchter said:


> It's not just that, it's a long-standing and peculiarly English obsession with having your own front door.


I'd say most people - given the choice - would prefer to live in a low rise house with a front door, garden an' t'ing.


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## Pickman's model (Jun 7, 2011)

Crispy said:


> London has a chronic housing problem (of multiple causes) that is compounded by our distaste for dense, mid/high-rise housing.


 which is doubtless why there have been so many mid/high-rise blocks go up in london in recent years.


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## Crispy (Jun 7, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> which is doubtless why there have been so many mid/high-rise blocks go up in london in recent years.


 
Indeed. Still nowhere near enough though (and especially not enough suitable for families)


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## Pickman's model (Jun 7, 2011)

Crispy said:


> Indeed. Still nowhere near enough though (and especially not enough suitable for families)


 
because that's not where the money is. the money's in accommodation for students or for yups (eg the housing put up along the canal between limehouse and the angel).


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## Crispy (Jun 7, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> because that's not where the money is. the money's in accommodation for students or for yups (eg the housing put up along the canal between limehouse and the angel).


 
Yep. Although councils could force the matter if they so wished, through planning conditions.


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## Pickman's model (Jun 7, 2011)

Crispy said:


> Yep. Although councils could force the matter if they so wished, through planning conditions.


 
if they wished... but they never do.


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## Belushi (Jun 7, 2011)

editor said:


> I'd say most people - given the choice - would prefer to live in a low rise house with a front door, garden an' t'ing.


 
I really wouldn't, I like living in flats, though I would like a balcony.  I guess I'm in a minority though.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jun 7, 2011)

Crispy said:


> The sort of which haven't been build for decades


 


teuchter said:


> It's not just that, it's a long-standing and peculiarly English obsession with having your own front door.


 


editor said:


> I'd say most people - given the choice - would prefer to live in a low rise house with a front door, garden an' t'ing.


 
Agree on all three comments.  I think the British do like to do a bit of gardening as well which is a bit difficult in a tower block


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## Cowley (Jun 7, 2011)

Belushi said:


> I really wouldn't, I like living in flats, though I would like a balcony.  I guess I'm in a minority though.


 
You're not the only one. Plenty of Families & young folks in Europe live in apartments in City Centres.

I live in a House, but would happily trade it to live in a semi-spacious apartment in the City.

Problem in London is the Housing, it's totally rubbish & totally overpriced.


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## TruXta (Jun 7, 2011)

I lived in apartments for years when in Oslo, didn't miss gardens or such at all, and would happily live in one in London if there was just anywhere nice-ish and affordable. Seems like it's either ghastly noveau riche glass and steel condos or ex-council estates. If I had to choose I think I'd go with the latter. But what I'd like to see is more like this:


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## Crispy (Jun 7, 2011)

Yep. 5-6 storeys lets you have decent streetscapes and high density. London actually has lots of examples of this sort of housing in 'traditional' styles - the area around Albert Hall for example, but little of it gets built today.


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## TruXta (Jun 7, 2011)

Crispy said:


> Yep. 5-6 storeys lets you have decent streetscapes and high density. London actually has lots of examples of this sort of housing in 'traditional' styles - the area around Albert Hall for example, but little of it gets built today.


 
Yeah, there's still bits and pieces I see around, but I guess a lot of it has been converted to offices and shops?


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## Crispy (Jun 7, 2011)

TruXta said:


> Yeah, there's still bits and pieces I see around, but I guess a lot of it has been converted to offices and shops?


 
Lots of it is still residential, but in those areas the price is insane.


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## TruXta (Jun 7, 2011)

Crispy said:


> Lots of it is still residential, but in those areas the price is insane.


 
Oh, you mean in Kensington? Fuck, I don't even want to think about what it would cost..... [googles]  You're looking at 3 mill and upwards. Nice.


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## Cid (Jun 7, 2011)

Gramsci said:


> A lot of the squatting in London was due to Councils CPO property and emptying it out for vast schemes of "slum clearance" that never went ahead. This was particularly true of Brixton. It was not about lack of jobs. It was , in the eyes of the Labour party of the time, about giving working people decent housing and amenities. By late 70s that utopian vision fell on hard times leaving a lot of empty properties.



Don't know much about that... Or at least I know about 60s/70s visions of housing and the collapse of that, but hadn't realised they'd cleared so many out. Will read further.



> I disagree with you about the service economy in London that has replaced the traditional working class jobs. The newer service jobs are all over central London. Who makes the cappuchino, cleans the office, sweeps the streets, shop assistants, receptionists etc etc? The working class never went away it just changed.



True, didn't think that through entirely... I suppose my point relates more to established communities changing, so stuff which was location dependent like industry, markets etc either collapsed or changed and the communities around them left too. The w/c community that replaced it is much more transient and has been shunted out to zone 3+. 



Minnie_the_Minx said:


> I'm not sure it's so much that as a distaste for shit, poorly designed, badly lit, muggers' paradise type of estates


 
Estates turning into mugger's paradises is less about the architecture and more about chronic underfunding and the idea of sink estates etc.



editor said:


> I'd say most people - given the choice - would prefer to live in a low rise house with a front door, garden an' t'ing.


 
Given the choice, yes, but if the choice is an old terrace in Croydon or a modern flat near Brixton? Or a flat in the Barbican vs a house in Enfield? So much housing is being converted into studios and flats now anyway, have to say it really pisses me off - so much of it is just sub-standard, people end up living in damp little shitholes paying the kind of rent that would get you a lovely place anywhere else in the UK. The state of housing in London is truly woeful.


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## TruXta (Jun 7, 2011)

Cid said:


> Estates turning into mugger's paradises is less about the architecture and more about chronic underfunding and the idea of sink estates etc.


 
Hmmmm... I've seen good arguments on both sides of the "shit design leads to shit estates" debate. Clearly some of the high-rises built in the 60s and 70s "failed", but then when people built low-rise estates they equally failed. One of my current fave thinkers on urban design, Bill Hillier of UCL - has this to say:



> This paper addresses the controversy about the relationship between crime and spatial design. There are tow divergent views: the one which advocates open and permeable environments in which strangers as well as inhabitants pans through spaces and the second based on the model of defensible space in single mix which advocates closed and impermeable environments.
> 
> The paper identifies the hidden dangers of research into crime and its spatial distribution and warns against over-simplistic assumptions, particularly at the larger scale of analysis. Research by Simon Shu and other crime–space studies carried out by the Space Syntax Laboratory have some striking results – they found no correlation between crime and density, only a poor correlation between affluence and crime, but a very strong correlation between layout type and all kinds of crime, with traditional street patterns the best and the most ‘modern’ hierarchical layouts the worst. The results linking socio-economic as well as spatial data are preliminary but strongly indicate that rich and poor alike benefit from living in traditional streets. The paper offers some simple design guidance: join buildings together, avoid any kind of secondary access, make sure that all public spaces are continuously ‘constituted’ by dwelling entrances and maximise the intervisibility of these entrances by a linear rather than a broken up layout. The research draws out a critical lesson in space syntax crime analysis that spatial factors do not operate one at a time to increase or reduce security, they interact and both global and local factors must be right if security is to be enhanced.



Full PDF here: http://www.spacesyntax.com/Files/MediaFiles/CAN_STREETS_BE_MADE_SAFE.pdf


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## editor (Jun 7, 2011)

Cid said:


> Given the choice, yes, but if the choice is an old terrace in Croydon or a modern flat near Brixton? Or a flat in the Barbican vs a house in Enfield?


Sadly, an awful lot of tower blocks were built to a low standard and that's what most people associate with them.


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## teuchter (Jun 7, 2011)

editor said:


> I'd say most people - given the choice - would prefer to live in a low rise house with a front door, garden an' t'ing.


 
I'd say most people - given the choice - would prefer to live in a giant chateaux with a gate house, full domestic staff an' t'ing.

Almost everywhere else in Europe (including Scotland) mid-rise apartment blocks are common and have been for some time in urban areas. As Crispy says, there is some of this in London (often referred to as "mansion blocks") but it's mainly limited to the very centre of town.

English people are basically anti-social and can't deal with sharing a front door with others, and like to live in a sort of pretend-rural environment if at all possible. The result of this is that London is actually a really weird city. I remember the first time I came down here, seeing the rows and rows of 2 or 3 storey terrace houses, and noticing that this continued right up to the very edge of central London. You don't see anything like this in any other major European city I can think of.

Of course, these narrow terrace houses (although quite cleverly planned for use as a whole house) convert pretty terribly into smaller units which is why so many people now live in awkward pokey flats.

Go to a Scottish city, where people have always been a bit cleverer, and the standard of flats there is much better.


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## Crispy (Jun 7, 2011)

Rushcroft Road should set the standard for housing density all the way around Brixton centre, for example. Instead, one road over, there's essentially suburban density housing. But the demand is for the sort of housing provided by Rushcroft Road, so it's all being chopped up into flats.

I've been to some Glasgow tenement flats and they're absolutely fantastic


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## London_Calling (Jun 7, 2011)

The point has probably been made tenfold but there is a wider context; London as a city has undergone the most dramatic economic regeneration - to the point where you can list the un-regenerated/unpretentious areas south of the river quite easily. 20 years ago it was the reverse.


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## editor (Jun 7, 2011)

Crispy said:


> I've been to some Glasgow tenement flats and they're absolutely fantastic


Indeed. But they weren't the ones built in the 1960s and 1970s. 



> In Glasgow, where Scotland's highest concentration of tenement dwellings can be found, the urban renewal projects of the 1950s, 1960s and 1970s brought an end to the city's slums, which had primarily consisted of older tenements built in the early 19th century in which large extended families would live together in cramped conditions. They were replaced by high-rise blocks that, within a couple of decades, became notorious for crime and poverty.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apartment


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## Crispy (Jun 7, 2011)

No, they weren't. They were good buildings, solidly constructed with granite facades. Bet they cost a fortune to run, mind.


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## editor (Jun 7, 2011)

Crispy said:


> No, they weren't. They were good buildings, solidly constructed with granite facades. Bet they cost a fortune to run, mind.


Well, that's how they built 'em back in the old days, but for many people, the memory of cheap 60s/70s high rise blocks is unlikely to warm them to the idea of high rise living in a hurry.


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## Crispy (Jun 7, 2011)

I know. That's the problem we have. It is generational in scope.


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## leanderman (Jun 7, 2011)

Anyway, the gun gangs have now had their say on Brixton's gentrification.

Their efforts will surely slow down the process


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## lighterthief (Jun 7, 2011)

Crispy said:


> Indeed. Still nowhere near enough though (and especially not enough suitable for families)


High rises are preferred by developers for the simple reason that land is expensive, therefore there is a desire to maximise density as much as possible per sq foot.


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## Crispy (Jun 7, 2011)

lighterthief said:


> High rises are preferred by developers for the simple reason that land is expensive, therefore there is a desire to maximise density as much as possible per sq foot.


 
*hand waggle* not always the case. Building very high brings its own expenses and is only profitable when land is very expensive or the sale price of the flats is very high. True high-rise is not required for London, in any case. Mixed size accommodation can be built at high density in 5-6 stories, without compromising the human scale at street level.


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## teuchter (Jun 7, 2011)

Crispy said:


> No, they weren't. They were good buildings, solidly constructed with granite facades. Bet they cost a fortune to run, mind.


 
If you are talking about Glasgow tenements, can I just add a pedant's note that in Glasgow they are pretty much universally built with sandstone. For granite you need to head for Aberdeen.


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## lighterthief (Jun 7, 2011)

Crispy said:


> Building very high brings its own expenses and is only profitable when land is very expensive


In what way would it be less profitable is land was cheap?


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## quimcunx (Jun 7, 2011)

Crispy said:


> No, they weren't. They were good buildings, solidly constructed with granite facades. Bet they cost a fortune to run, mind.


 
Tenement flats in Dundee are decent properties but are cheap because parking is usually very limited so anyone who owns a car ( and most people who can buy a property in Dundee probably own a car) is put off.

they are neither granite nor lovely red or blond sandstone.  Whatever stone it is it's grey.


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## Crispy (Jun 7, 2011)

teuchter said:


> If you are talking about Glasgow tenements, can I just add a pedant's note that in Glasgow they are pretty much universally built with sandstone. For granite you need to head for Aberdeen.


 
Ah thank you. Very nice they were anyway 

High land price generally means high property prices. You can only build very tall if you are guarunteed  to get a higher return on each flat.


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## lighterthief (Jun 7, 2011)

Crispy said:


> Ah thank you. Very nice they were anyway
> 
> High land price generally means high property prices. You can only build very tall if you are guarunteed  to get a higher return on each flat.


Or you simply need to develop/sell more units of accommodation on the same area of land to clear an acceptable profit.


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## teuchter (Jun 7, 2011)

Also, I think I'm right in saying that building tall (ie more than about 6-8 storeys) doesn't actually increase density very much unless you are really willing to sacrifice daylight. The higher the buildings, the larger their shadows are, and the more sky they block out, and the more space you need between them. I think the height of around 6 storeys-ish is considered good because a reasonable amount of spacing between blocks that high corresponds to a convenient width for an urban street. If you apply the same geometry to 2-3 storey high blocks (ie to achieve similar levels of daylighting) they end up too close together - either too close for a useful street width, or you get problems with people looking straight into each others' houses.

Also, there are diminishing returns because the higher you go, the more of the building volume has to be taken up as circulation space (passageways, lifts, fire escapes, etc). In lower rise situations that most of that circulation space is provided by streets and pavements that are pretty cheap to build.

So, you can build really tall if rents are very high (like Manhattan) because people will sacrifice access to daylight for a convenient/desirable location. This coupled with the expense per unit as Crispy says of building very high is why it only makes sense where land values are very high.

Obviously there are special circumstances where building very high works - if for some reason the high building stands on its own, or is next to a park or river or something, in which case you can get a very high density but that doesn't work averaged over a larger area.


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## Crispy (Jun 7, 2011)

Same argument, really  there's also things that make the cost of building more than just a linear extrapolation based on height.
Above about 30m, building regs kick in that make things more complex in terms of fire safety. Engineering and access get more expensive and so on. But down at 5 stories, 'domestic' construction methods and regs still apply.


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## teuchter (Jun 7, 2011)

...another thing that determines an optimum height is lifts. Most Glasgow tenement buildings are about 4 storeys high because that's about as many stairs as most people want to carry their shopping up.

Now that we have lifts (and also now that they are considered necessary for accessibility for people with mobility problems etc, rather than a luxury) that changes things a little. Probably, if building regs had required lifts at the time they were building the tenement blocks, they would have been built a bit taller.


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## Gramsci (Jun 7, 2011)

Crispy said:


> I know. That's the problem we have. It is generational in scope.


 
I agree high rise could be an answer. If built and maintained properly. With proper sound insulation between flats.

Trellick Tower in west London has had its ups and downs. Now its sought after address. Some flats are still Council. Others private (RTB)

Article here: http://www.newstatesman.com/200507180049

Interesting points from article:

"the failure of high-rise council flats in Britain was often owing to local authority budget cuts rather than architectural shortcomings. It was the stinginess of the Greater London Council in refusing to provide a concierge for the tower that led to Trellick’s lifts and corridors being overrun by vandals and criminals in the 1970s, earning it the sobriquet "Tower of Terror"."

And

"Most of Britain’s tower blocks were not the work of "elitist" architects but of large contracting firms such as Wimpey and Laing, which had stand-ardised designs, in-house engineers and package deals with local authorities. The responsibility of state socialism for the high-rise experiment is well documented; capitalism’s role, for some strange reason, seems to have been written out of history."

That is the poor build of some of the 60s blocks was due to corner cutting by capitalist business. Trellick Tower was unusual in being designed and built by well known architect.


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## Gramsci (Jun 7, 2011)

The other example of high density that works is the Brunswick Centre:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brunswick_Centre

Its been refurbished recently. Some of the old walkways have been removed.

Ive go there a lot as the Renoir cinema is there. Its changed over the years but the building still functions well.


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## Crispy (Jun 7, 2011)

No need at all to build as high as Trellick in most cases. The 60s and 70s tower blocks were designed not for density, but to free up open space. Often, the population of a set of terraced roads would be scooped up into a single tower and the previous area razed, in the name of health and a beautiful landscape. As we now know, this results in wasteland, not pleasant parks.

The brunswick is not particularly high density - no more so that the surrounding buildings


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## Winot (Jun 7, 2011)

Crispy said:


> Yep. 5-6 storeys lets you have decent streetscapes and high density. London actually has lots of examples of this sort of housing in 'traditional' styles - the area around Albert Hall for example, but little of it gets built today.


 
I was in Paris recently for the first time in years and stayed in an apartment in a Hausmann block.  I hadn't realised how uniform they were - each 7 stories high, balconies on the 2nd and 5th floors etc.  Result is a high density city which works.


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## Gramsci (Jun 7, 2011)

leanderman said:


> ... all backed up by the TUC report today that showed wages in 'working-class' occupations had flatlined in real terms from 1978-2008 while those for doctors have risen by 150 per cent and for lawyers by 100 per cent. The bankers probably did even better.



http://tuc.org.uk/britainslivelihoodcrisis

And Guardian article here:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentis...cable-minister-no-business-unions?INTCMP=SRCH

The UK economy has doubled in size in 30 years, but the bottom fifth of earners have enjoyed real pay rises of only a quarter, and those on middle incomes of little more than a half. In contrast, the real wages of top professionals such as doctors and lawyers has more than doubled. The pay of many relatively unskilled and semi-skilled workers (including bakers, forklift-truck drivers, packers and bottlers) has actually fallen in real terms since the 1970s. The proportion of workers on poverty pay – one in eight in 1977 – has almost doubled.

Up to a third of working people today face what can best be called a "livelihood crisis" – poorer job opportunities, stagnant living standards and growing insecurity, making life more of a struggle each year. Those caught in this crisis have little or no prospect of escape, and their children face an even more uncertain economic future.

 The great deregulation experiment of the last 30 years – embraced by all the political parties – turned Britain from a high-wage, low-debt and relatively equal society into a low-wage, high-debt and deeply unequal nation.

Our real economic problem is not the deficit – that is simply a symptom of a profoundly dysfunctional economy that fails to serve the interests of the majority. The real challenge is how we can reduce inequality and drive recovery by putting spending power back into the pockets of the many.

Sometimes I think  Gentrification can be a seen as aspect of this "deregulation experiment". The state has gradually withdrawn from "interfering" with house housing and regeneration leaving it increasingly to market forces. Gentrification is in effect one particular form of regeneration. But its not the only one and its not inevitable.


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## Gramsci (Jun 7, 2011)

Crispy said:


> The brunswick is not particularly high density - no more so that the surrounding buildings



Ur right there is a lot of housing around Bloomsbury which is older  blocks of flats. People often assume no one lives in central London. Unless its in new "loft apartments". 

My examples were only to show that this kind of modernist housing can work.


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## Crispy (Jun 7, 2011)

It can indeed, although the mere style of it is offputting to many. I'd have nothing whatsoever against pastiche if it ends up making denser housing morenattractive to the general public.


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## teuchter (Jun 8, 2011)

Crispy said:


> It can indeed, although the mere style of it is offputting to many. I'd have nothing whatsoever against pastiche if it ends up making denser housing morenattractive to the general public.


 
More often than not, pastiche (badly) hides dumb-headed internal planning and generally crap design throughout. Better surely to aim for good coherent design ending up making denser housing more attractive to the "general public".

Saying that "modernist" style puts people off is oversimplifying things I think. There are certain elements of modernist architecture that people have bad associations with, some of them with good reason, but it's stupid to throw the baby out with the bathwater. I think it's perfectly possible to build stuff that isn't pastiche but still appeals to people.

Developers like pastiche because they can buy bits of PVC and reconstituted stone mouldings off the shelf and stick them on the outside of rubbish, badly designed buildings, and get away with it because so many town planners let them on the basis of it being "traditional" and therefore somehow in keeping with its surroundings. The reality being that it's an insult to any kind of actual historical architecture, and will look just as terrible in 20 years time as many of the cheaply built 60s tower blocks everyone hates now.


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## teuchter (Jun 8, 2011)

This kind of nonsense, and there's much worse than this:



If future civilisations discover record of this sort of thing - what will they think of us...


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## Greenfish (Jun 8, 2011)

White educated liberals hating white educated liberals shocker!


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## boohoo (Jun 8, 2011)

Greenfish said:


> White educated liberals hating white educated liberals shocker!



You got out the wrong side of the bed! 

*hands Greenfish a coffee and a piece of toast*


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## stereotypical (Jun 9, 2011)

mwareing1 said:


> But lets not forget that the warehouses were converted, giving a new regeneration in a poor dilapitated area. This gives jobs etc. You cant compare Liverpool to London in any way.


 
As opposed to investment in the outer rim of the city with places like Kensington and Anfield now largely made up of entire derilict estates.

The urban regeneration project in Liverpool is a sham based largely upon making it 'nice' for tourists.

As for jobs, the only bloody jobs we have here now are in the minumum wage service industry as jobs based around manufacturing and the docks have all largely disappeared (which to some extent provided work for residents living along the river e.g places in North Liverpool like Bootle).

I hate whats happened to my city and the ignorant city planners and renewal idiots have a lot to answer for.

Oh yeah and all them converted warehouses are now trendy galleries (which we cant afford to patron) and empty flats.  Great.


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## teuchter (Dec 7, 2012)

So, a year and a half on from the original posting of my prescient thread - would 71% of people still vote for the third option, I wonder?


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## TruXta (Dec 7, 2012)

Yeah.


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## teuchter (Dec 7, 2012)

Oh yeah?


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## TruXta (Dec 7, 2012)

yeah. To me it seems like what was last summer has merely been amplified. No massive shifts, just a ramping up of the volume.


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## editor (Dec 7, 2012)

Now this is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning.


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## prunus (Dec 7, 2012)

Yes, 'tis Ning!


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## Nanker Phelge (Dec 7, 2012)

Graffiti in the Albert is more but less......


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## Winot (Dec 7, 2012)

editor said:


> Now this is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning.


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## Winot (Dec 7, 2012)

leanderman said:


> I wouldn't worry about a middle-class influx
> 
> My friends who can afford to buy prefer a west london shoebox or southernmost tooting to brixton


 
Still true?


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## Manter (Dec 7, 2012)

Winot said:


> Still true?


 Yes, IME.  Gave someone chocolate from our new chocolate museum today and some v interesting, um, cliches about Brixton were trotted out


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## Winot (Dec 7, 2012)

Manter said:


> Yes, IME. Gave someone chocolate from our new chocolate museum today and some v interesting, um, cliches about Brixton were trotted out


 
I hope you took the chocolates back in that case.


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## leanderman (Dec 7, 2012)

Winot said:


> Still true?


 

A little less true.

Also, young colleagues, largely renters, are now very positive about Brixton.

The prejudices of older people are harder to shift


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## MillwallShoes (Dec 9, 2012)

all i know is that brixton used to be my favorite place in london, spent many years of my youth there, in the pubs,clubs, etc

but now i don't love it as much. either i've changed or it has - probably both! it always had the proper sense of a town, but an open minded, interesting one, where people can live side by side in almost perfect peace. the other thing, was because of it's "problems" it kept close minded, biggoted people out, they were too scared or racist to go there - you had to see through the bullshit to live there. i am pretty sure i might have a different perspective if i lived on a moody estate with a lot of crime, but from what i could make out brixton was a little oasis.

now it just seems overrun with young professionals, not that there is anything wrong with young professionals, but no doubt the feel of the place has changed!


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## Winot (Dec 9, 2012)

MillwallShoes said:


> the other thing, was because of it's "problems" it kept close minded, biggoted people out, they were too scared or racist to go there - you had to see through the bullshit to live there


 
^^^
very good point


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## Ms T (Dec 10, 2012)

leanderman said:


> A little less true.
> 
> Also, young colleagues, largely renters, are now very positive about Brixton.
> 
> The prejudices of older people are harder to shift


Many of my work colleagues, for example, who are generally lovely, but annoyingly blinkered about Brixton.


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## Cowley (Dec 10, 2012)

The gentrification in Brixton is still moving on up. I suppose the market is aimed mainly at youngsters and singles/couples with disposable incomes without families. I mean honestly...where else in the Country (London excluded) would folks sit in a freezing cold market to be served average food?

I admit I've been there maybe 2 or 3 times in the past year and each time I've left mildly disappointed. The Caribbean fish place was the best of the bunch, Wild Caper is pretty decent too..I went to that Spanish restuarant that everybody raves about and the service was rubbish and food extremely average...it wasn't cheap either.

Each to their own though, I suppose if you are "young and hip" it's the place to be but generally there is quite a lot of places to eat and drink in Brixton and IMHO a lot of the best ones aren't in the market.

Fair play to the places that have opened up in there, some of them are charging outrageous prices for some of the food they are serving but they are busy so are doing something right.


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## boohoo (Oct 14, 2013)

Bumping this thread as it's interesting to see what people voted for.


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## Belushi (Oct 14, 2013)

I've only been back a few times since I moved north of the river but it seems to be gentrifying at a fair old clip now.


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## teuchter (Oct 14, 2013)

Worth bearing in mind whilst rereading the first few pages that they were written less than 3 years ago. Things move quickly.


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## editor (Oct 15, 2013)

I'm pretty sure the poll would look very different if the same questions were asked today. I'd certainly change my vote.


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