# a thread for pedants and 'politicos' to pick apart Welsh language



## ddraig (Aug 30, 2006)

so can you please leave my 'siarad cymraeg siarad cymraeg' thread for the purpose it was intended now please, forfucksake!  

anyone want a dig, offload their shoulder chips or can't help but whinge, stir and moan, please do so below

diolch


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## Brockway (Aug 30, 2006)

ddraig said:
			
		

> so can you please leave my 'siarad cymraeg siarad cymraeg' thread for the purpose it was intended now please, forfucksake!



So it's the "_my_" siarad cymraeg siarad cymraeg thread now is it? Just because you started it doesn't mean you own it - it's the people's siarad cymraeg siarad cymraeg thread if you don't mind.


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## llantwit (Aug 30, 2006)

[Moved from basic welsh thread to carry on bunfight over here]




			
				bonheddwr said:
			
		

> Twit by name, Twit by nature. Where's the chip on your shoulder come from? Your attitude is pathetic and childish.
> 
> Fine, deny your children their birth right, but remember one thing. Children in bilingual schools in Wales reach a much higher academic level than their counterparts in English only schools. They even get better results than the average school in England IN ENGLISH!
> 
> The more languages you speak, the easier it is to pick up others. I'd make Welsh and English compulsory from 3years old onwards, so that everyone in Wales is bilingual, and ONLY THEN would they have a choice. At the moment there is no choice. Most Welsh children are denied their right to the Welsh language.


Since we're going to be abusive...
Boneheader by name boneheader by nature, eh? You patronising pompous shrill cunt.
We can all do that, but it's not the most constructive thing in the world is it?
Of course I've nothing against bilingualism - my kids will be bilingual English and German. And while they grow up the more languages they get the opportunity to learn the better. 
But (and this is a big but) I want a choice over the ones they HAVE to learn as primary languages - and my choice is the 1st language of their father and that of their mother, not some language which we've got no attachment to and neither has any of their family members, that's all.
And that's my considered view as a welshman - live with it and don't try and steamroller over it with abuse because it doesn't fit with your vision of wales, OK? I think it's shared by a lot more people than you might want to imagine.


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## llantwit (Aug 30, 2006)

Brockway said:
			
		

> So it's the "_my_" siarad cymraeg siarad cymraeg thread now is it? Just because you started it doesn't mean you own it - it's the people's siarad cymraeg siarad cymraeg thread if you don't mind.


I don't want it.


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## llantwit (Aug 30, 2006)

~


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## bonheddwr (Aug 30, 2006)

llantwit said:
			
		

> [Moved from basic welsh thread to carry on bunfight over here]
> 
> 
> Since we're going to be abusive...
> ...



I may WANT my children to be bilingual in Punjabi and Clingon, but hey, that wouldn't really be practical would it?

What you must respect is that Wales is a bilingual country, with two official languages - Welsh and English. No children coming out of Welsh medium education are monoglot Welsh speakers, but MOST children coming out of english medium schools are monoglot English speakers. A very small percentage would be fluent(ish) in maybe French, or German, but that percentage is small, and decreasing.

By giving your child a bilingual education, you are not forcing the language on them, but rather, giving them the opportunity to use the Welsh language if they so wish. An opportunity you haven't been given, and therefore if you make the choice of wanting to speak Welsh, it will be a very hard, costly and time consuming exercise as an adult.

By giving your children a bilingual education, they will have a choice of using the Welsh language or not. It is entirely up to them. This is not forcing the language on them, but the complete opposite. It is empowering them to make a choice when they are older.

Most children would oppose to compulsory maths, science, history, geography etc, etc at school, and you could argue that these subjects are also being FORCED on to the children, are you also opposed to this. Should we sit a three year old down and ask him/her what subjects they wish to learn? Can you see now how daft the argument is?

And being bilingual DOES NOT stop your child from learning French, or German etc. It actually makes them better prepared for the challenge. This is a fact, and the test results speak for themselves. French grammar is actually rather similar to Welsh (and totally different to English) in many ways.

So why not have a tri-lingual child speaking fluent Welsh, English and German? Why are you so opposed to giving them the opportunity to learn a language their Welsh forefathers have spoken for thousands of years?

You talk about choice, but if you deny your child the chance to become fluent in Welsh - he/she has no choice!

Sory for being patronising, but I just cannot understand this sort of argument. There is no argument really, but there must be an underlying cause. What has made you feel this way???


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## Brockway (Aug 30, 2006)

bonheddwr said:
			
		

> By giving your child a bilingual education, you are not forcing the language on them, but rather, giving them the opportunity to use the Welsh language if they so wish. An opportunity you haven't been given, and therefore if you make the choice of wanting to speak Welsh, it will be a very hard, costly and time consuming exercise as an adult.
> 
> By giving your children a bilingual education, they will have a choice of using the Welsh language or not. It is entirely up to them. This is not forcing the language on them, but the complete opposite. It is empowering them to make a choice when they are older.
> 
> ...



Well said. I don't understand why people are so afraid to make their kids more intelligent.


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## llantwit (Aug 30, 2006)

First off - just a tip. Stop with the patronising tone, OK. Don't be telling me what I must respect.
I've made my point clearly - it's not as you seem to suggest about what the child might want - that would be absurd, as you suggest... 
It's about what I want for my children - and that's to be brought up as anglo-welsh (just like their family and forefathers running back three generations - before that they were Irish and English, sorry), and German (that's what their mother is, and so half of our kids family will be too).
These are the languages that we, as adults, have chosen for our kids. they will speak both German and English at home. They can learn welsh in school as a second language and if they want to they can keep learning it along with whatever else they decide to do when the choices present themselves.
But we both want them to have an English medium education in school... nothing through the medium of Welsh apart from Welsh. That should be our decision, and not something that is imposed by the legislature without proper consultation, which I feel is happening at the moment to an extent.


> I may WANT my children to be bilingual in Punjabi and Clingon, but hey, that wouldn't really be practical would it?


I don't understand what you're driving at here. Obviously a totally bilingual education in English and Punjabi would be silly in this country outside of the relatively small communities that speak Punjabi and English. I feel the same about Welsh, tbh. I don't feel any bond with the language, and don't see it as offering all of these opportunities that you speak of.


> What you must respect is that Wales is a bilingual country, with two official languages - Welsh and English. No children coming out of Welsh medium education are monoglot Welsh speakers, but MOST children coming out of english medium schools are monoglot English speakers. A very small percentage would be fluent(ish) in maybe French, or German, but that percentage is small, and decreasing.


I know - I grew up here too, OK? I've already explained what I meant by the German comment, to give you my particular context.


> By giving your children a bilingual education, they will have a choice of using the Welsh language or not. It is entirely up to them. This is not forcing the language on them, but the complete opposite. It is empowering them to make a choice when they are older.


Don't give me this opportunity crap. I don't value the 'opportunities' you speak of, OK? I'd rather they use their time in education to follow different 'opportunities' - that's my parental perogative.


> Most children would oppose to compulsory maths, science, history, geography etc, etc at school, and you could argue that these subjects are also being FORCED on to the children, are you also opposed to this. Should we sit a three year old down and ask him/her what subjects they wish to learn? Can you see now how daft the argument is?


Like I say above - this is a misreading of my argument, and one I've clarified.


> And being bilingual DOES NOT stop your child from learning French, or German etc. It actually makes them better prepared for the challenge. This is a fact, and the test results speak for themselves. French grammar is actually rather similar to Welsh (and totally different to English) in many ways.


Like I said - they will be bilingual - English and German, and yes, this will enable them to learn welsh later if they want to. And I know a lot about French grammar, too. I speak English, German and French fluently - just to dispel the possible idea that I'm some kind of limited monglot (heaven forbid).


> So why not have a tri-lingual child speaking fluent Welsh, English and German? Why are you so opposed to giving them the opportunity to learn a language their Welsh forefathers have spoken for thousands of years?


Because, my friend, and this is what it's gonna keep coming back to: my wife and I don't want our kids to learn welsh as a primary language. Just the way it is. You might find that hard to fathom, but people often differ in their opinions, don't they? As a second/foreign language - that's fine, and they'll always have the chance to improve or become fluent if they want to. I mentioned what I think of the 'forefathers' argument earlier.


> You talk about choice, but if you deny your child the chance to become fluent in Welsh - he/she has no choice!


Yes, well that's not true is it? They can learn it later if they want in addition to the languages they will learn from birth.


> Sory for being patronising, but I just cannot understand this sort of argument. There is no argument really, but there must be an underlying cause. What has made you feel this way???


There's no 'underlying cause' dude - it's quite manifest. We, as parents, want to be able to decide which languages our children are educated in. 
At home that will be English and German, at school it'll be English.

Let me ask you one question that I'd like you to answer without any recourse to invective or mock shock that someone's got different ideas about early years education to you:
Do you think that the responsibility for deciding what languages your children are educated in should be taken away from parents and decided by the state?

I don't think the state should decide that all children should be educated in English and Welsh - because that takes away my choice as a citizen and parent to have my kids school-educated in my mother tongue only, and not some other language that some (a small minority of) people in my country speak.

At the moment Welsh medium schools exist, and if poeple want to send their kids there they do. That's choice. What you're proposing is a forced bilingualism. That's not choice - it's taking choice away.

Bear in mind that NONE of your arguments will make me change my mind on this long-considered and mutually agreed upon decision between a man and his wife...

Should my choice be taken away because a minority of Welsh speakers values the language more than me?


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## llantwit (Aug 30, 2006)

Brockway said:
			
		

> Well said. I don't understand why people are so afraid to make their kids more intelligent.


My kids will be bilingual anyway - they just won't be educated through the medium of Welsh in school.
I've got no beef with bilingualism - I'd just like to decide the languages they will be bilingual in.
It seems more and more on this thread that if some people got their way the only way I could retain this choice would be to move away from my own country or pay for a private education. That is just fucking absurd.


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## Brockway (Aug 31, 2006)

"Do you think that the responsibility for deciding what languages your children are educated in should be taken away from parents and decided by the state?

I don't think the state should decide that all children should be educated in English and Welsh - because that takes away my choice as a citizen and parent to have my kids school-educated in my mother tongue only, and not some other language that some (a small minority of) people in my country speak."

Shame Welsh parents didn't have that choice when _their_ kids were forced to speak English by er, your ancestors.


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## Brockway (Aug 31, 2006)

llantwit said:
			
		

> My kids will be bilingual anyway - they just won't be educated through the medium of Welsh in school.
> I've got no beef with bilingualism - I'd just like to decide the languages they will be bilingual in.
> It seems more and more on this thread that if some people got their way the only way I could retain this choice would be to move away from my own country or pay for a private education. That is just fucking absurd.



Why not make them trilingual?


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## llantwit (Aug 31, 2006)

Brockway said:
			
		

> Why not make them trilingual?


That's a decision we made. Emphasis on the 'we', just to ram home the point it should be 'our' decision.


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## llantwit (Aug 31, 2006)

Brockway said:
			
		

> "Do you think that the responsibility for deciding what languages your children are educated in should be taken away from parents and decided by the state?
> 
> I don't think the state should decide that all children should be educated in English and Welsh - because that takes away my choice as a citizen and parent to have my kids school-educated in my mother tongue only, and not some other language that some (a small minority of) people in my country speak."
> 
> Shame Welsh parents didn't have that choice when _their_ kids were forced to speak English by er, your ancestors.


Yeah - we really fucked you taffies over good didn't we. 
Seriously, though. Of course I fucking hate the history of English imperialism in Wales.


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## Jim2k5 (Aug 31, 2006)

Brockway said:
			
		

> So it's the "_my_" siarad cymraeg siarad cymraeg thread now is it? Just because you started it doesn't mean you own it - it's the people's siarad cymraeg siarad cymraeg thread if you don't mind.



damn right he owns it


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## Jim2k5 (Aug 31, 2006)

and now he owns this one, ddraigs owning threads all over this shit


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## ddraig (Aug 31, 2006)

are u mashup jimboy?


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## nwnm (Aug 31, 2006)

comrades! in case you missed it - there is only one true path http://www.davewheelbarrow.org.uk/


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## zog (Aug 31, 2006)

> I may WANT my children to be bilingual in Punjabi and Clingon, but hey, that wouldn't really be practical would it?



Where my kids go to school, they'd find it far more useful to learn Punjabi than Welsh, and as far as Clingon goes.... well we'd never travel further north than Merthyr so they'll never need it.


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## llantwit (Aug 31, 2006)

nwnm said:
			
		

> comrades! in case you missed it - there is only one true path http://www.davewheelbarrow.org.uk/


I reckon I know him!


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## llantwit (Aug 31, 2006)

Ben Bore on other thread said:
			
		

> I'm not looking for an argument, but by insiting your child is'nt subjected to that horrible useless and dangerous language (Welsh), are you not taking the choice away from them?  If they are fluent in both, then the can make the choice.  if they can only speak English, they have no choice what langugae they speak unless they spend time learning Welsh as a second language when adults


They will be bilingual - it's all up there... /\
And I don't think Welsh is harrible or dangerous.
Welsh isn't important enough to me or my wife to want to take the momentous decision of having our kids grow up speaking it, that's all.
If you want your kids to, then great... 
But universal fully bilingual education in Wales? No ta.


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## Brockway (Aug 31, 2006)

zog said:
			
		

> Where my kids go to school, they'd find it far more useful to learn Punjabi than Welsh, and as far as Clingon goes.... well we'd never travel further north than Merthyr so they'll never need it.



But when they leave school Zog they are going to want a decent job. Why deny them the opportunity of walking into a cosy number at the beeb? Or in PR? Or the numerous independent TV companies that are in Cardiff. Maybe they wouldn't want to do any of these anyway but you are already narrowing their opportunities by denying them the chance. There are loads of non-Welsh speaking parents who are sending their kids to Welsh-medium schools for this very reason.


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## Brockway (Aug 31, 2006)

llantwit said:
			
		

> They will be bilingual - it's all up there... /\
> And I don't think Welsh is harrible or dangerous.
> Welsh isn't important enough to me or my wife to want to take the momentous decision of having our kids grow up speaking it, that's all.
> If you want your kids to, then great...
> But universal fully bilingual education in Wales? No ta.



Your kids might end up having to move to England (or Germany) to get a decent job because of your narrow minded outlook. What if they decide to get a job in the media? They'll be fucked. You've probably already ruined their lives. I hope you're proud of yourself llantwit......


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## ddraig (Aug 31, 2006)

Brockway said:
			
		

> But when they leave school Zog they are going to want a decent job. Why deny them the opportunity of walking into a cosy number at the beeb? Or in PR? Or the numerous independent TV companies that are in Cardiff. Maybe they wouldn't want to do any of these anyway but you are already narrowing their opportunities by denying them the chance. There are loads of non-Welsh speaking parents who are sending their kids to Welsh-medium schools for this very reason.



can u point me in the direction of one of these cosy numbers please brocks?

i could do with a spell off the rock'n'roll


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## Brockway (Aug 31, 2006)

ddraig said:
			
		

> can u point me in the direction of one of these cosy numbers please brocks?
> 
> i could do with a spell off the rock'n'roll



First thing's first mate. Get yourself a nice smart haircut and buy a suit.

Now tell me... what are your skills?


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## ddraig (Aug 31, 2006)

nooooooooooooooo, never owned a suit and only wear something resembling one for weddings & funerals, so meh for that one.

might be gettin a haircut anyways, not to fit in, oh no, perish the thought, just bored with long locks again 

my skills - i speak welsh, thought that was all i needed for one of thesy cushy numbers in the media


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## Brockway (Aug 31, 2006)

ddraig said:
			
		

> nooooooooooooooo, never owned a suit and only wear something resembling one for weddings & funerals, so meh for that one.
> 
> might be gettin a haircut anyways, not to fit in, oh no, perish the thought, just bored with long locks again
> 
> my skills - i speak welsh, thought that was all i needed for one of thesy cushy numbers in the media



It is, but you've got to make a bit of an effort with your appearance if only for the interview stage. Have you got any other qualifications?


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## ddraig (Aug 31, 2006)

i got an ology! (a 3rd in)
and that was by the skin of my teeth like


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## Brockway (Aug 31, 2006)

ddraig said:
			
		

> i got an ology! (a 3rd in)
> and that was by the skin of my teeth like



Was it sociology? You don't need Welsh for that mun - you just have to be able to smoke roll-ups. Get yerself down the job centre now they're crying out for ASBO assessors.


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## ddraig (Aug 31, 2006)

ewww, hate rollies and tweed and elbow pads come to think of it.

would assessing asbo's mean i could tell the nimby's to stop being so silly?


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## llantwit (Aug 31, 2006)

Brockway said:
			
		

> Your kids might end up having to move to England (or Germany) to get a decent job because of your narrow minded outlook. What if they decide to get a job in the media? They'll be fucked. You've probably already ruined their lives. I hope you're proud of yourself llantwit......


 How will I live with myself?


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## editor (Aug 31, 2006)

Brockway said:
			
		

> Why not make them trilingual?


Although I'm the first to admit that Welsh isn't exactly a vital world language, there seems to be enough documented evidence that kids taught in the medium of Welsh do tend to do better than monoglot speakers.

Those arguing that the second language should be something other than Welsh are missing the point: if you're being taught Welsh in Wales there's more to it than just another language - by learning the ancient language of the land you can understand more about the history and culture of the country - and make sense of road signs!

Being taught Spanish in, for example, Llandrindod Wells simply doesn't have the same cultural resonance and would perhaps make pupils less inclined to follow it through - but once a kid has two languages under their belt, learning more is a lot easier.


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## ddraig (Aug 31, 2006)

editor said:
			
		

> Although I'm the first to admit that Welsh isn't exactly a vital world language, there seems to be enough documented evidence that kids taught in the medium of Welsh do tend to do better than monoglot speakers.
> 
> *Those arguing that the second language should be something other than Welsh are missing the point: if you're being taught Welsh in Wales there's more to it than just another language - by learning the ancient language of the land you can understand more about the history and culture of the country - and make sense of road signs!*
> 
> Being taught Spanish in, for example, Llandrindod Wells simply doesn't have the same cultural resonance and would perhaps make pupils less inclined to follow it through - but once a kid has two languages under their belt, learning more is a lot easier.



very good point and one i've been trying to get my brain to formulate since all this kicked off, ta.


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## llantwit (Aug 31, 2006)

editor said:
			
		

> Although I'm the first to admit that Welsh isn't exactly a vital world language, there seems to be enough documented evidence that kids taught in the medium of Welsh do tend to do better than monoglot speakers.
> 
> Those arguing that the second language should be something other than Welsh are missing the point: if you're being taught Welsh in Wales there's more to it than just another language - by learning the ancient language of the land you can understand more about the history and culture of the country - and make sense of road signs!
> 
> Being taught Spanish in, for example, Llandrindod Wells simply doesn't have the same cultural resonance and would perhaps make pupils less inclined to follow it through - but once a kid has two languages under their belt, learning more is a lot easier.


Like I've said before - I totally buy the bilingualism argument. That's fine. Also - my championing of German as my future kids' other language is cos it's gonna be their mother tongue, like. Very specific to my situation.

BUT, I do think that people not having a choice about whether they're kids are gonna be educated half through the medium of Welsh sucks big huge ass.

I allso take your point about the value of Welsh - I agree, to an extent. But for me - this whole debate isn't about the value of Welsh as a language. It's about compulsory bilingual education.

It's not my language, and I don't like the fact that I might well not have a choice in future about my kids being taught in it in school because of the will of a minority in my own country.


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## editor (Aug 31, 2006)

llantwit said:
			
		

> It's not my language, and I don't like the fact that I might well not have a choice in future about my kids being taught in it in school because of the will of a minority in my own country.


But _it's the native language of the country_, so why shouldn't people who live there be encouraged to learn it?

Learning Welsh gives kids a better understanding of the history, heritage and culture of their country. It helps them make sense of modern Wales.

What's wrong with that?


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## llantwit (Aug 31, 2006)

editor said:
			
		

> But _Learning Welsh gives kids a better understanding of the history, heritage and culture of their country. It helps them make sense of modern Wales._


_
First, I'm just not convinced by that. I understand my country's history, heritage, and culture really well (including the rather nasty suppression of the welsh language), and I don't speak it.

But - for the umpteenth time, I've got nothing against kids learning Welsh. I just don't want half of my kids' education delivered to them through the medium of Welsh.


Also, on a separate point... I'm not convinced of the merits of spending huge amounts of public money ressurecting the language, and making it compulsory for all to do their learning through the language.
That money could be better spent elswhere._


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## llantwit (Aug 31, 2006)

editor said:
			
		

> But _it's the native language of the country_, so why shouldn't people who live there be encouraged to learn it?


I'm not even against people being encouraged to learn it. Opposing that would be pointless and mean-spirited. What I'm against is not giving people the option to be educated through the medium of English only. Which is where we're headed.


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## editor (Aug 31, 2006)

llantwit said:
			
		

> What I'm against is not giving people the option to be educated through the medium of English only. Which is where we're headed.


So you don't think people should be taught the language of the land that they choose to live in?


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## editor (Aug 31, 2006)

llantwit said:
			
		

> But - for the umpteenth time, I've got nothing against kids learning Welsh. I just don't want half of my kids' education delivered to them through the medium of Welsh.


Seeing as it's likely to give them a better education, a better understanding of their culture, heritage and locality as well as improved skills for learning other languages, I can't see why you're so bothered.


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## munkeeunit (Aug 31, 2006)

I'm such a pedant when it comes to the welsh language that I can't even begin to pull it apart even if I wanted to for a laugh. I'd just have a couple of dum and stupid comments to make, which would make me look like such a low grade of dimwitted pedant that I won't even bother to embarass myself.


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## llantwit (Aug 31, 2006)

editor said:
			
		

> So you don't think people should be taught the language of the land that they choose to live in?


Come on... we don't choose where we're born, do we, and not many of us really get to choose which country we live in. But more to the point, the language of the country I live in is English - some others who live here also speak Welsh. That's great.
I should add that I'm (relatively) happy here... I'm just unhappy with this rather new turn in the thinking behind state education policy in Wales, that's all.


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## editor (Aug 31, 2006)

llantwit said:
			
		

> But more to the point, the language of the country I live in is English - some others who live here also speak Welsh.


Actually, the  language of the country you live in was - for many, many hundreds of years - Welsh and that was only changed as a result of England forcing English on the population.


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## llantwit (Aug 31, 2006)

editor said:
			
		

> Seeing as it's likely to give them a better education, a better understanding of their culture, heritage and locality as well as improved skills for learning other languages, I can't see why you're so bothered.


Yeah, well, like I said, I don't agree with you on that one - people can get a rich understanding of Welsh culture, history, and whatnot, even if they don't speak Welsh.
I'm bothered because a fundamental change in the way our children are educated is being introduced through the back door without any proper public debate.


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## llantwit (Aug 31, 2006)

editor said:
			
		

> Actually, the  language of the country you live in was - for many, many hundreds of years - Welsh.


No shit.
Doesn't change my experience growing up speaking English as a third generation non-welsh speaker though, does it?


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## editor (Aug 31, 2006)

llantwit said:
			
		

> Doesn't change my experience growing up speaking English as a third generation non-welsh speaker though, does it?


Sure - but I don't understand why you're so against your kids being taught in the native language of their own country -especially when there's clear educational benefits to them learning the language.


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## Belushi (Aug 31, 2006)

I don't agree with llantwit but I see where he's coming from - he doesn't want to risk his kids turning into Gogs


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## munkeeunit (Aug 31, 2006)

Very similar situation in Ireland with this one. As far as I understand it both languages were stamped out by force, and still just within living memory. That still makes it a live issue doesn't it?

Third generation is still within spitting distance of those who experienced first hand what it was like to have a language nearly snuffed out by force. That gives it far more of an edge as an issue than the idea of resurrecting a language which fizzled out more of it's own accord, as they also do.

But as 3rd generation Irish, who has always lived in the U.K, I don't feel fully able to give a definitive opinion on either really.


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## llantwit (Aug 31, 2006)

Because I'm not convinced of those clear educational benefits (to do with welsh in particular - as you know the kids'll be bilingual anyway).
Because As a family we have no cultural or political links or bond with Welsh (you can call it my 'native' lanuage as much as you like, but that's not gonna change this).
And, cos they'll already be fluent in two languages in the home - and there is a very strong school of thought that suggests that intensive early years education in more than two languages could be detrimental to learning.*











*this opinion is based on numerous conversations with a range of early years experts and linguists - I could try and dig up some refs for you, but you don't really wanna read them, and I haven't got time as wasted too much of it today already .


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## llantwit (Aug 31, 2006)

Belushi said:
			
		

> I don't agree with llantwit but I see where he's coming from - he doesn't want to risk his kids turning into Gogs


Absofuckinlutely!
At last someone understands!!


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## llantwit (Aug 31, 2006)

editor said:
			
		

> the native language of their own country


As you know - there are two official languages - like in other countries, people should be able to choose which ones they and their families learn, and shouldn't HAVE to learn both.
That's all I'm saying.


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## editor (Aug 31, 2006)

llantwit said:
			
		

> Because I'm not convinced of those clear educational benefits (to do with welsh in particular - as you know the kids'll be bilingual anyway).


Here you go:


> *Access to two cultures*
> One of the advantages of being bilingual is having access to two cultures - two different worlds of experience. With a language comes idiom and sayings, folk stories and history, poetry, literature and music, both traditional and contemporary.
> 
> Being able to speak Welsh also allows young people who speak Welsh to play a full part in community life in those areas of Wales where the language is widely used.
> ...


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## llantwit (Aug 31, 2006)

Do you speak Welsh?
Just curious.


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## ddraig (Aug 31, 2006)

right   can we take it back a bit please?

what has changed in the education system for you to have these concerns llantwit? i've either missed it or not be following this properly. i think i understand both sides as i mentioned before.

anyway, my own experience in breif afaicr
went to junior school which was welsh then the only welsh speaking comp in our town out of about 4 or 5 comps. got taught a fair few subjects through the medium of welsh some which were fair enough like history, geography and welsh obviously and some which were a bit daft like french and some of the sciences which weren't strictly to be taught in welsh but were which was down to the individual teachers.
we would get in trouble if we spoke english as much as we would for running in school or walking down the wrong side of the corridor etc. this was counterproductive and led the majority of us to rebel, which is something i now regret with hindsight. we didn't talk much welsh at home as though my mum tried, my dad wasn't at that time a welsh speaker and again, we were rebelling. also with mates we would converse in english apart from the hardcore few who mostly spoke welsh.
this maybe natural etc but imo contributed to the decline in the use and maybe in some eyes the usefullness of the mother tongue.  

so i went to college in london and apart from the odd meeting with a fellow student or tourist i did not get to utilise my language and even then it was kind of embarrassing, i don't know why and still don't, something to do with the hiraeth/inbuilt shame of being 'away'.  and after years of getting it from both sides - look he's a cockerney when i went 'home' and taff this, baaa that when i was in 'exile' i missed wales and welsh more and more and began to question whether i was happy in london and more importantly whether i could live with myself if i lost my welsh and welshness.
that and some other shit conspired to me returning a couple of years ago after 15yrs in london, mostly as i explain to people who ask 'to be welsh again'. yes i know it's silly and i can 'be' welsh anywhere in the world but it's how i felt/rationalised it.
despite not having had the opportunity to use the language much at all since i've been back i have not regretted it and feel better in myself.

so while i'm not up for forcing kids these days to learn welsh, i feel it's too precious to lose and would like to be able to polish up on it and use it in interactions now and again, not down the mochyn du or in the beeb with the crachach (who turn my stomach with their superiority complex) but with my fellow countrypeople who do speak it.  and i would love to see the use of it spread as long as it's not to the detriment of others of course.
i hope that makes sense...


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## llantwit (Aug 31, 2006)

//


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## ddraig (Aug 31, 2006)

llantwit said:
			
		

> //


ce?


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## editor (Aug 31, 2006)

llantwit said:
			
		

> Do you speak Welsh?
> Just curious.


Nope - when I was at school, Welsh but all but dead and buried off the curriculum and I've regretted it all my life.


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## llantwit (Aug 31, 2006)

ddraig said:
			
		

> right   can we take it back a bit please?
> what has changed in the education system for you to have these concerns llantwit? i've either missed it or not be following this properly. i think i understand both sides as i mentioned before.



OK - so what's changed. The new Welsh Language Act has set an objective for Wales to be fully bilingual by 2020.
In education a couple of things have already changed or are being implemented at the moment.
By 2008 the Founadtion Phase (early years) Curriculum has had a 'bilinguaism' subject area added to it which will make provision for education through the medium of Welsh compulsory accross the board in all state schools (not just Welsh schools, as was previously the case).
The new farmework for the inspection of schools (put out by the inspections body ESTYN) calso contains a 'bilingualism' category for inspection in previously English medium schools.
It's basically soon gonna be the law that all schools in wales will have to provide bilingual education through the medium of Welsh and English.

This means, as I've been carping on about for ages, I'll no longer be able to excercise choice over what languages my kids are educated in.

Now whether you value welsh or not, and of course there's gonna be a range of opinions accross the country varying between apathy either way, and strong support and opposition, you gotta admit that's a fairly big policy change that there wasn't a huge big public debate about and I'll warrant not many people know about even today.

It's cost fucking millions - and will cost even more in training of teachers and classroom assistants, and like the parents, the teachers won't be given a choice. If they don't want to learn Welsh they will be assessed under inspection as failing in their duty under the law.

These millions, I feel, could have been better spent in a whole range of more deserving places. I think that the language, particularly with regards to education, is given disproportionate importance by a legislature out of touch with what people really want.


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## llantwit (Aug 31, 2006)

Off home now - not ignoring anyone.
tata


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## ddraig (Aug 31, 2006)

cheers for that, much appreciated, i didn't know any of it tbh.

and there's no chance of 





> The new Welsh Language Act has set an objective for Wales to be fully bilingual by 2020.


 whatever your viewpoint.


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## llantwit (Aug 31, 2006)

Just to reiterate:

I'm not against the promotion of the Welsh language, and investment in more welsh-medium schools to create provision for welsh language or bilingual education for thos that want it.
I know a family in Cardiff who send one of their kids to Welsh medium school, and the other one goes to an English medium one cos there aren't enough places at the Welsh school. That's wrong, and shouldn't be the case.

I just want to be able to have a choice about what language my kids are educated in, and not to be forced to send them to a bilingual school when I don't want that for them.
That's not unreasonable, I think.


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## zog (Aug 31, 2006)

> Although I'm the first to admit that Welsh isn't exactly a vital world language, there seems to be enough documented evidence that kids taught in the medium of Welsh do tend to do better than monoglot speakers.



It might be because their parents tend to be of the middle classes down here, and that may have more to do with educational succsess than what language they are taught in.

and Ddraig, as far as getting a job in s4c i think you is speaking the wrong sort of Welsh.

I'm not knocking compulsory Welsh. If I could choose a compulsory subject for my kids not to take it would be religion.


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## ddraig (Aug 31, 2006)

zog said:
			
		

> It might be because their parents tend to be of the middle classes down here, and that may have more to do with educational succsess than what language they are taught in.
> 
> *and Ddraig, as far as getting a job in s4c i think you is speaking the wrong sort of Welsh.*
> 
> I'm not knocking compulsory Welsh. If I could choose a compulsory subject for my kids not to take it would be religion.


  init tho!


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## bonheddwr (Aug 31, 2006)

llantwit said:
			
		

> OK - so what's changed. The new Welsh Language Act has set an objective for Wales to be fully bilingual by 2020.



erm, since when? The most recent Welsh Language Act was in 1993. The UK Parliament has certainly not passed any new legistlation since then, and the crappy Assembly isn't allowed to pass Primary legistlation.


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## chilango (Aug 31, 2006)

llantwit said:
			
		

> Just to reiterate:
> 
> I'm not against the promotion of the Welsh language, and investment in more welsh-medium schools to create provision for welsh language or bilingual education for thos that want it.
> I know a family in Cardiff who send one of their kids to Welsh medium school, and the other one goes to an English medium one cos there aren't enough places at the Welsh school. That's wrong, and shouldn't be the case.
> ...



Fair enough.

Do you think the state or you yourself should pay for it though?

Like if you had a strong parental belief that you wanted your kids educated in a faith school or something?


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## llantwit (Aug 31, 2006)

OK, I might have my wires crossed with the act - but the stuff about education still holds (relating to the inspection of schools and the new curriculum) - new rules relating to bilingual teaching, and that.


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## llantwit (Aug 31, 2006)

chilango said:
			
		

> Fair enough.
> 
> Do you think the state or you yourself should pay for it though?
> 
> Like if you had a strong parental belief that you wanted your kids educated in a faith school or something?


Is that a piss-take?
Are you suggesting I should pay? I
'm already paying for massive expansion in Welsh medium teaching through my taxes, btw.
And I have a strong feeling I'm not in the minority, too. It's just that recent changes in policy haven't been widely publicised.


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## llantwit (Aug 31, 2006)

zog said:
			
		

> It might be because their parents tend to be of the middle classes down here, and that may have more to do with educational succsess than what language they are taught in.
> 
> and Ddraig, as far as getting a job in s4c i think you is speaking the wrong sort of Welsh.
> 
> I'm not knocking compulsory Welsh. If I could choose a compulsory subject for my kids not to take it would be religion.


I'm not knocking compulsory Welsh - I'm knocking the compulsory teaching of other subjects through the medium of Welsh.


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## chilango (Aug 31, 2006)

llantwit said:
			
		

> Is that a piss-take?
> Are you suggesting I should pay? I
> 'm already paying for massive expansion in Welsh medium teaching through my taxes, btw.



Nah. not a piss take. Nor even really arguing that you _should_ pay.

Just that in most cases, if parents don`t agree with the type of education the state provides they have to go and pay for a private education.


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## bonheddwr (Aug 31, 2006)

llantwit said:
			
		

> I just want to be able to have a choice about what language my kids are educated in, and not to be forced to send them to a bilingual school when I don't want that for them.
> That's not unreasonable, I think.



1, Do you think that your child's English language skills would be worse in a bilingual (Welsh-English) school?

2, Do you think that your child's German language skills would be worse in a bilingual (Welsh-English) school?

If NO is the answer to the questions above, your child will be just as skilled in English and German if they go to a Welsh medium school or not, it's just that if they go to a Welsh medium school, they'd have Welsh language skills as well. Not instead of, but as well.

So why are you opposed to giving your children the opportunity to speak one of their native languages again?

Regarding Welsh history, culture etc. My father was a learner, his family came from London. I can only take his word on the matter, but he stated that he understood Welsh culture and history much better after learning Welsh. From simple things like the names of places, and the history behind the name  to the chance to read ancient Welsh poetry from the 6th century, which is still similar enough to modern Welsh to be read today.

What does Llantwit Major mean? Well Llan is a Welsh word for Church (although Eglwys is used more today) I haven't got a clue what TWIT stands  for (other than the obvious English meaning, which is stupid), and major is obvious. Llanilltud Fawr on the other hand is easy. 

llan = Church
Illtud = A Welsh saint, and founder of Llanilltud Fawr
mawr = great/large/big

The connection between the language, and Welsh history is massive.


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## llantwit (Aug 31, 2006)

zog said:
			
		

> It might be because their parents tend to be of the middle classes down here, and that may have more to do with educational succsess than what language they are taught in.


Spot on there, mate.


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## llantwit (Aug 31, 2006)

bonheddwr said:
			
		

> 1, Do you think that your child's English language skills would be worse in a bilingual (Welsh-English) school?
> 
> 2, Do you think that your child's German language skills would be worse in a bilingual (Welsh-English) school?
> 
> ...



I'm from Llantwit Fardre - Llanilltyd Faerdref.
And I know what it means without being a fluent Welsh speaker.

Like I keep saying - the issue isn't about the merits of Welsh, or the merits of bilingualism for me.

It's about having the CHOICE to decide what languages my kids are educated in, and not having a language that has no connection with me or my family foisted upon them.

That's a pretty fundamental right that I had up until pretty recently.

It's fine and dandy if you want to learn Welsh or your kids to learn Welsh. I respect your right to that kind of education. Why can't my right (as an english speaker in a predominantly english speaking country) be respected equally?


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## Brockway (Aug 31, 2006)

"So the statistic you have quoted is something you heard on the radio? Given that I've never heard or seen a similar statistic anywhere else i cannot but conclude that you misheard something.Indeed you play rather loose with facts again when you assert that China has three languages. In fact it has dozens of languages. Although Han Chinese is spoken by the vast majority and the ruling class hae had a long standing policy of forcing it on minority groups.

Again you assert that 75% of the worlds populations are bilingual. And then use this as an argument for a fully bilingual education system in Wales. But the fact is that with not a single exception people only speak one language at a time. Very few peope being equally 'at home' in more than one language. There is no good reason to assume that people in Wales would break with this universal pattern and why should they?

Your vision of Wales as bilingual - begging the question of which language individuals will choose to speak to other individuals given a free choice - is utopian. Languages are no more equal than individuals. Certainly individuals should have equal rights and opportunities but it is crazy to believe that they are equal in every way. Similarly languages are not equal and even if by some magic everybody in Wales was able to speak both languages we would still live in a world in which Welsh is a minority language and English a world language spoken by hundreds of millions.

At most by boosting the number of Welsh speakers you would be boosting the market for Welsh medium cultural products. Assuming, an unwarranted asumption in my opnion, that people would choose such products over their English medum rivals in the market. In no other way would you be boosting Welsh culture, whatever that means, given that popular culture everywhere is increasing international - which in reality all too often means Anglo-Amercian of course - based on the bourgeois values of this society. Viewed in this way what is specifically Welsh about People of the Valley that differntiates it as such from Coronation Street or Manuredale?

To conclude we live in a society in which a world culture exists and i the tendencies towards it sfurther development are massive. Some such endencies are deplorable in my opinion and others very positive. But the development of such a culture and the sheer impossiblity for any national or minority language culture, 'Welsh culture' would of course be both, is clear for all to see. Your vision of a vibrant Welsh language based cuture in all parts of Wales is as utopian and socially reactionary as say the vision of Wales held by Saunders Lewis that we would all return to an agricultural Roman Catholc Wales.

Face facts Wales has two languages that are unequal. More state aid must be given to the minority culture as its speakers must also fight the market in order to prerserve and develop their language. But it is their language not ours thank you very much."

by NEP


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## Brockway (Aug 31, 2006)

Brockway said:
			
		

> "So the statistic you have quoted is something you heard on the radio? Given that I've never heard or seen a similar statistic anywhere else i cannot but conclude that you misheard something.Indeed you play rather loose with facts again when you assert that China has three languages. In fact it has dozens of languages. Although Han Chinese is spoken by the vast majority and the ruling class hae had a long standing policy of forcing it on minority groups.
> 
> Again you assert that 75% of the worlds populations are bilingual. And then use this as an argument for a fully bilingual education system in Wales. But the fact is that with not a single exception people only speak one language at a time. Very few peope being equally 'at home' in more than one language. There is no good reason to assume that people in Wales would break with this universal pattern and why should they?
> 
> ...



Yes I heard that statistic on the radio. No, I didn't mishear it. Send your complaint to Bush House and stop infering that I made it up - you cheeky git.

I didn't "assert" that China has 3 languages - I said "I think" it has 3 languages which was in response to your assertion that it is mostly monoglot. You now seem to have acquired a vast wealth of knowledge about linguistics in that area of the world. But thanks for the info that China has dozens of languages - I'm sure at least some of the population are bilingual don't you, probably in their local tongue and the official language of the area (hmmm... sounds familiar).

I'm not using the 75% statistic to argue for a bilingual education system in Wales (although I believe in one). I'm just pointing out that learning another language isn't that uncommon, in fact it's the norm in large parts of the world.

Yes English is a more influential language than Welsh. It's more influential than Icelandic too which is why they learn both. Ditto Dutch, Danish etc etc. Because English is more dominant and influential as a world language do you think these peoples should give up their native tongue and only speak culturally dominant English? Me neither.

Culture isn't measured in "cultural products" - culture is everything from discussing _Pirates of the Caribbean _in Welsh, to having a cup of coffee in an Italian cafe in Merthyr.

No, my vision of a vibrant bilingual Welsh culture in all parts of Wales is not Utopian it's perfectly achievable - and in a relatively short space of time with proper planning. Your comparison to Saunders Lewis is hilarious btw and nowhere near my personal politics. My vision of a bilingual Welsh culture is not reactionary either - it's liberating and inclusive.

And what does "it is their language not ours mean"? Who are you speaking on behalf of now? Don't tell me what my language is Nep. Like I said before - English is the language I speak but it's NOT my language.


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## bonheddwr (Aug 31, 2006)

llantwit said:
			
		

> That's a pretty fundamental right that I had up until pretty recently.



I'm afraid that SHOULDN'T be your fundamental right. Wales is a bilingual country, and therefore in my view, every child SHOULD HAVE THE RIGHT to learn Welsh, and then its up to them to speak it whenever they wish.

If you could prove that teaching your child to be fluent in Welsh would be negative in educational terms, then maybe you would have a point. But you cannot, as all research points to bilingual schools achieveing higher grades in all subjects - including English!

You just don't want your child to be a fluent Welsh speaker. You do not give any reasons for this. I may not want my child to learn maths, but tough luck. If its on the curricilum my child would have to learn it.

If the situation did arise (and I doubt it very much in our lifetime) where all schools in Wales were bilingual, you could always send your child to a private school. Where do you live by the way? If you really want to keep your child away from the Welsh language, and you live near the border, you could always send him/her to a school in England.


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## ddraig (Aug 31, 2006)

bonheddwr
you've quoted selectively and contradicted yourself in that post and are still coming over a bit ott in my opinion, which is uneeded. nowhere has llantwit said he wants to keep his children away from the Welsh language just, afaics, that he slightly resents the possible compulsaryness of it. 
and generally if/when you start SHOUTING the odds and what peoples rights should be, people tend to stop listening.

dere m'lan nawr, dydi hon dim y ffordd ydw e?


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## bonheddwr (Aug 31, 2006)

ddraig said:
			
		

> bonheddwr
> you've quoted selectively and contradicted yourself in that post and are still coming over a bit ott in my opinion, which is uneeded. nowhere has llantwit said he wants to keep his children away from the Welsh language just, afaics, that he slightly resents the possible compulsaryness of it.
> and generally if/when you start SHOUTING the odds and what peoples rights should be, people tend to stop listening.
> 
> dere m'lan nawr, dydi hon dim y ffordd ydw e?



Where is the contradiction? And yes, I do agree, I need to stop SHOUTING.


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## ddraig (Aug 31, 2006)

bonheddwr said:
			
		

> I'm afraid that SHOULDN'T be your fundamental right. Wales is a bilingual country, and therefore in my view, every child SHOULD HAVE THE RIGHT to learn Welsh, and then its up to them to speak it whenever they wish.
> <snip>


that he SHOULDN'T have the right but his offspring SHOULD perchance?


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## Brockway (Aug 31, 2006)

Bonheddwr hasn't said anything OTT or out of order Ddraig. It's llantwit who's out of order for inventing children. He's a fantasisit, a Walter Mitty character. He should be in Whitchurch mental hospital.


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## ddraig (Sep 1, 2006)

yeah! but that's bye-the-bye mun


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## llantwit (Sep 1, 2006)

Brockway said:
			
		

> Bonheddwr hasn't said anything OTT or out of order Ddraig. It's llantwit who's out of order for inventing children. He's a fantasisit, a Walter Mitty character. He should be in Whitchurch mental hospital.


But I alreay AM there - gotta problem with place of abode?


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## llantwit (Sep 1, 2006)

bonheddwr said:
			
		

> I'm afraid that SHOULDN'T be your fundamental right.


Hmm... true colours, anyone? Nutter.




			
				bonheddwr said:
			
		

> every child SHOULD HAVE THE RIGHT to learn Welsh, and then its up to them to speak it whenever they wish.


Yes, I agree. There should be enough Welsh medium schools for everyone who wants their children to be educated in the medium of welsh.




			
				bonheddwr said:
			
		

> If you could prove that teaching your child to be fluent in Welsh would be negative in educational terms, then maybe you would have a point. But you cannot, as all research points to bilingual schools achieveing higher grades in all subjects - including English!


Look, this has nothing to do with my argument - which is about parental freedom. No, I'm not convinced of the merits of a welsh/english bilingual education - But, and for the last time: this. is. not. my. point.




			
				bonheddwr said:
			
		

> You just don't want your child to be a fluent Welsh speaker. You do not give any reasons for this. I may not want my child to learn maths, but tough luck. If its on the curricilum my child would have to learn it.


Yes, you're right on the first point. Not on the 2nd - there are plenty of reasons - but that's not what I'm arguing principally here.
And the maths thing is a red herring - I don't mind my kids learning Welsh in school - as I've said many times on this thread and others... I do mind a substantial portion of their education being delivered in the medium of Welsh (for reasons - read the thread).




			
				bonheddwr said:
			
		

> If the situation did arise (and I doubt it very much in our lifetime) where all schools in Wales were bilingual, you could always send your child to a private school. Where do you live by the way? If you really want to keep your child away from the Welsh language, and you live near the border, you could always send him/her to a school in England.



I was wondering how long it would take before you lost it and started getting abusive, authoritarian, and telling me to send my kids to school in England. 
So predictable.
I've meade my points pretty clearly a number of times on this thread already - and you've not engaged with them at all, so we'd better just leave it there. I'm not gonna repeat myself ad nauseum for your dimwitted benefit.
Fucking Welsh Taleban.


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## Belushi (Sep 1, 2006)

> Fucking Welsh Taleban.



Considers a change of tag line


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## llantwit (Sep 1, 2006)

:d


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## Ben Bore (Sep 1, 2006)

I understand your point  llantwit about parental freedom 100%, but I don't don't understand why your so aginst your children being bilingual ( you say it's stated within this thread somewhere, so I'll have to re-read it)

I have to disagree with you on some points:
You say that you can understand Welsh history just as well in English, I don't think this is the case.  They say history is written by the victor, so if you can only source information written in English, you're restricting yourself to a certain viewpoint.  Granted, not everybody is that bothered about history.  But the same applies to poetry and music, both of which played/plays a large part in Welsh history and culture.

You say you'r not happy with the amounts of money spent on Welsh medium education from your taxes.  Well I pay for English medium education from my taxes.  Some families (as you've pointed out) have to send their kids to Engish medium schools even though they want their children to a Welsh medium one.  This is a situation where parental choice is severly restricted.  
(I'm not holding you directly responsible for the lach of Welsh medium school by the way - yet  )

Also you have nothing against a bilingual Wales, yet you don't want your children speaking Welsh.  How can a counrty be bilingual if half the population  (or 75-80% can't/won't speak one of the languages).  If some parents in Wales decided to go out of their way not to teach their children English, I bet they'd be prosecuted.

Anyway, I'm off to my cave now to wait for the airstrikes to stop


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## ddraig (Sep 1, 2006)

<cries>
bore da pawb!


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## llantwit (Sep 1, 2006)

Ben Bore said:
			
		

> I understand your point  llantwit about parental freedom 100%, but I don't don't understand why your so aginst your children being bilingual ( you say it's stated within this thread somewhere, so I'll have to re-read it)
> 
> I have to disagree with you on some points:
> You say that you can understand Welsh history just as well in English, I don't think this is the case.  They say history is written by the victor, so if you can only source information written in English, you're restricting yourself to a certain viewpoint.  Granted, not everybody is that bothered about history.  But the same applies to poetry and music, both of which played/plays a large part in Welsh history and culture.
> ...



I'm not being rude - I've been doing this for more than a day now - sorry you weren't in from the beginning to have the debate... but I really gotta have a bit of a break now.
In short:
I'm not happy with a universal bilingual education for all - that's the bottom line. I feel it's coming given recent changes in education policy, and I feel there hasn't been a full and proper public debate about it. I feel that a lot of anglos would share my views (as well as a lot of immigrants from non-english (or welsh) speaking countries) if they knew of the changes that had been, are being made to the ed. system.
Any amount of trying to persuade me of the benefits of making everyone learn through the medium of Weslh as well as English is beside the point I'm trying to argue.


> How can a counrty be bilingual if half the population  (or 75-80% can't/won't speak one of the languages).


Quite - but the way to increase use of a language is not to enforce it from above. It's wrong, I think. But equally important, it won't work cos people won't like it.
I do take your point about history and culture (and I know about history - I'm a historian by trade) - to an extent - but it's not really relevant to what I'm arguing. To be honest, I'm a bit tired of the argument at the moment - but I'd like to come back to it some day.



> You say you'r not happy with the amounts of money spent on Welsh medium education from your taxes.  Well I pay for English medium education from my taxes.  Some families (as you've pointed out) have to send their kids to Engish medium schools even though they want their children to a Welsh medium one.  This is a situation where parental choice is severly restricted.
> (I'm not holding you directly responsible for the lach of Welsh medium school by the way - yet  )


OK, just one more point - as you saw, I made this point myself a few posts up. And As I said before - more Welsh schools (enough to cover demand) would be great - as long as the choice existed to not send my kids there, I don't mind paying for it out of my taxes at all, so please don't think I begrudge paying for the development ofWelsh. As I've said over and over on here, I don't.


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## llantwit (Sep 1, 2006)

What I do feel a bit worried about is the vehemence with which some people seem to want to stamp out debate with anger and abuse. Obviously not you Ben - you've been really measured and cool. But I've experienced it before, and I've been told on many occasions that I'm not really welsh because of my feelings about the language (we've also seen it to an extent in the letters pages of the WM this week, I think). It's just absurd and annoying, and it doesn't do the language lobby any favours at all when certain sections of itcome accross like foaming nutters, and pseudo-religious zealots.


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## ddraig (Sep 1, 2006)

llantwit said:
			
		

> What I do feel a bit worried about is the vehemence with which some people seem to want to stamp out debate with anger and abuse. Obviously not you Ben - you've been really measured and cool. But I've experienced it before, and I've been told on many occasions that I'm not really welsh because of my feelings about the language (we've also seen it to an extent in the letters pages of the WM this week, I think). It's just absurd and annoying, and it doesn't do the language lobby any favours at all when certain sections of itcome accross like foaming nutters, and pseudo-religious zealots.


seconded, but then there's always gonna be crachach/young passionate/slightly misguided types where language and nations are involved. 
i've had to check myself in the past and have mellowed (a bit) with age.
anyone who tells you you're not really welsh are wrong and has lost the argument really.


----------



## Ben Bore (Sep 1, 2006)

Anyone who thinks anyone is less Welsh because they don't speak Welsh is obviously a loon.  I do know that a *tiny* fraction o Welsh speakers hold that view, sadly they are the only ones who can be arsed to write the Western Mail, which makes all Welsh speakers look bad/mad.

I honestly do belive that Welsh only education will not be introduced in our lifetimes or that of our children, but if it was, there should be an open an honest debate about it.  Personally I'd be in favour of it, if that makes me seem like a crazy extremist, then so be it.


----------



## llantwit (Sep 1, 2006)

Ben Bore said:
			
		

> Anyone who thinks anyone is less Welsh because they don't speak Welsh is obviously a loon.  I do know that a *tiny* fraction o Welsh speakers hold that view, sadly they are the only ones who can be arsed to write the Western Mail, which makes all Welsh speakers look bad/mad.
> 
> I honestly do belive that Welsh only education will not be introduced in our lifetimes or that of our children, but if it was, there should be an open an honest debate about it.  Personally I'd be in favour of it, if that makes me seem like a crazy extremist, then so be it.


I don't think it does at all (make you look like a crazy extremist) - it just means that we differ in opinion. That's fine.
But on the othr point - if you look at recent education legisation (referenced earlier) universal bilingual education is already being introduced - and I think without any kind of adequate public debate.


----------



## Karac (Sep 1, 2006)

llantwit said:
			
		

> But on the othr point - if you look at recent education legisation (referenced earlier) universal bilingual education is already being introduced - and I think without any kind of adequate public debate.


Is it though?
Do you have any references for this?
As far as i know it could be an "aspiration" by the WAG much the same as full employment,Arts for all and top notch Cancer care-doesnt really mean its going to happen though!


----------



## niclas (Sep 1, 2006)

Karac said:
			
		

> Is it though?
> Do you have any references for this?
> As far as i know it could be an "aspiration" by the WAG much the same as full employment,Arts for all and top notch Cancer care-doesnt really mean its going to happen though!



I think Llantwit's referring to Iaith Pawb (Everybody's language), which is one of those crap aspirational policy documents that came out about a year ago. I'm not aware of any change of policy or compulsion in schools and certainly no law.

If there was, there are plenty of bigots who'd be jumping up and down (why do you think that private schools are thriving in Gwynedd - people moving into Wales don't want their kiddies learning Welsh)


----------



## llantwit (Sep 1, 2006)

No, I'm not. I'm refering to the documents that I listed in post no #56.


----------



## Karac (Sep 1, 2006)

llantwit said:
			
		

> No, I'm not. I'm refering to the documents that I listed in post no #56.


AFAIK there is no new Welsh Language Act.
<pedant alert>-in fact the last one was in 1993-and id lay my life on the line that it didnt say that all Welsh schools should be bi-lingual.
Actually theres been a reasonably vociferous campaign in favour of a new Welsh Language Act-but its being ignored by the powers that be.


----------



## llantwit (Sep 1, 2006)

Yeah, which is what I say in post #64.
The other two documents are more pertinent to my argument.
An argument which I'm too stoned to inclined to repeat to people who can't be bothered to read the thread.


----------



## Karac (Sep 1, 2006)

llantwit said:
			
		

> Yeah, which is what I say in post #64.
> The other two documents are more pertinent to my argument.
> An argument which I'm too stoned to inclined to repeat to people who can't be bothered to read the thread.


Ive read the thread and i think your tilting at Windmills here llantwit.


----------



## llantwit (Sep 1, 2006)

Then why did you ask two questions in succession that you'd know the answers to if you'd read the thread?


----------



## llantwit (Sep 1, 2006)

Look, that was unneccessarilly arsey. Sorry, I'm stoned.


----------



## Karac (Sep 1, 2006)

llantwit said:
			
		

> Then why did you ask two questions in succession that you'd know the answers to if you'd read the thread?


Ive read the thread-point me to the links that say that all Welsh schools will be bi-lingual.


----------



## Karac (Sep 1, 2006)

llantwit said:
			
		

> Look, that was unneccessarilly arsey. Sorry, I'm stoned.


Goodboy-my missus has banned me from smoking-just have to make do with red wine


----------



## llantwit (Sep 1, 2006)

Karac said:
			
		

> Ive read the thread-point me to the links that say that all Welsh schools will be bi-lingual.


I just did - 56. The two education docs I refer to after the WLA.


----------



## Karac (Sep 1, 2006)

llantwit said:
			
		

> OK - so what's changed. The new Welsh Language Act has set an objective for Wales to be fully bilingual by 2020.


There is no new Welsh Language Act


----------



## llantwit (Sep 1, 2006)

Am I in the twighlight zone?
Yes. I know. Someone said that before, which is why in post 64 I admit that I got my wires crossed withy that one.
And why in my last post to you I point you to the OTHER docs I name AFTER the welsh language act.


----------



## llantwit (Sep 1, 2006)

Just for you, in case I really have lost the power to communicate... Here's the docs I'm refering to, quoted fropm my post 56:


> In education a couple of things have already changed or are being implemented at the moment.
> By 2008 the Founadtion Phase (early years) Curriculum has had a 'bilinguaism' subject area added to it which will make provision for education through the medium of Welsh compulsory accross the board in all state schools (not just Welsh schools, as was previously the case).
> The new farmework for the inspection of schools (put out by the inspections body ESTYN) calso contains a 'bilingualism' category for inspection in previously English medium schools.
> It's basically soon gonna be the law that all schools in wales will have to provide bilingual education through the medium of Welsh and English.


----------



## Karac (Sep 1, 2006)

llantwit said:
			
		

> Just for you, in case I really have lost the power to communicate... Here's the docs I'm refering to, quoted fropm my post 56:


Wheres that from?I agree with it -but is it an official statement from somewhere?


----------



## Karac (Sep 1, 2006)

Farking hell that documents got so many spelling mistakes its untrue.
"In education a couple of things have already changed or are being implemented at the moment.
By 2008 the Founadtion Phase (early years) Curriculum has had a 'bilinguaism' subject area added to it which will make provision for education through the medium of Welsh compulsory accross the board in all state schools (not just Welsh schools, as was previously the case).
The new farmework for the inspection of schools (put out by the inspections body ESTYN) calso contains a 'bilingualism' category for inspection in previously English medium schools.
It's basically soon gonna be the law that all schools in wales will have to provide bilingual education through the medium of Welsh and English.


"bilinguaism","Founadtion","farmework","calso"

Iesu Mawr sooner these fuckers get down the Welsh school the better.


----------



## llantwit (Sep 1, 2006)

Karac said:
			
		

> Wheres that from?I agree with it -but is it an official statement from somewhere?


The Foundation Phase Curriculum is the new early years national curriculum for Wales coming into effect in 2008. Was due to be introduced by summer 2006, but bedgetary constraints delayed it.
The new framework for the inspection of schools from ESTYN lays out the rules by which schools inspectors evaluate teaching in Welsh schools.
I'm glad you agree with it. That's nice for you and yours.


----------



## Karac (Sep 1, 2006)

llantwit said:
			
		

> The Foundation Phase Curriculum is the new early years national curriculum for Wales coming into effect in 2008. Was due to be introduced by summer 2006, but bedgetary constraints delay it.


What is it though?
Whats your beef?


----------



## llantwit (Sep 1, 2006)

I'm sorry. You gotta be winding me up here.
Or don't you know what the national curriculum is?
If not - it's the template for what every child is taught in school. It is a document that tells all teachers what and how they have to teach.


----------



## Karac (Sep 1, 2006)

[


----------



## llantwit (Sep 1, 2006)

I give up.


----------



## Karac (Sep 1, 2006)

llantwit said:
			
		

> I'm sorry. You gotta be winding me up here.
> Or don't you know what the national curriculum is?
> If not - it's the template for what every child is taught in school. It is a document that tells all teachers what and how they have to teach.


Please link to this document you mention


----------



## Karac (Sep 1, 2006)

llantwit said:
			
		

> I give up.


You give up?
Youve failed to link to anything that backs up your statements


----------



## llantwit (Sep 2, 2006)

What? Are you calling me a liar?
I didn't make it up, ffs.
Surely the fact that I've given references to specific documents backs up my claims. That's usually how it works, I think you'll find, and it's pretty bad form to bandy around implications like that. Talking with you isn't debate - it's fucking kindergarten. Well I'm not gonna waste any more time explaining perfectly transparent statements to you, Karac, I've got more fulfilling things to do, like picking my nasal hair, and cleaning my toilet.
If you must know I've been told about them by a few teachers and early-years experts, who are also concerned about thier implications.
I don't even know if they're available online, and I can't be arsed spending my weekend looking for them to satisfy your lazy arse.
Why don't you look for them if you don't believe me?


----------



## llantwit (Sep 2, 2006)

Karac said:
			
		

> You give up?
> Youve failed to link to anything that backs up your statements


'I give up' was written after I read the comment you then edited out - so don't come accross all innocent you cheeky cunt.


----------



## Karac (Sep 2, 2006)

llantwit said:
			
		

> What? Are you calling me a liar?
> I didn't make it up, ffs.
> Surely the fact that I've given references to specific documents backs up my claims. That's usually how it works, I think you'll find, and it's pretty bad form to bandy around implications like that. Talking with you isn't debate - it's fucking kindergarten. Well I'm not gonna waste any more time explaining perfectly transparent statements to you, Karac, I've got more fulfilling things to do, like picking my nasal hair, and cleaning my toilet.
> If you must know I've been told about them by a few teachers and early-years experts, who are also concerned about thier implications.
> ...


Hang on a minute-you havent referenced any documents-if your going to go into one about supposed bilingualism in all schools in Wales then surely its up to you to find these imaginary documents not me 
You referenced one quote which somewhat bizarrely you appeared to have written yourself or at least written in your own words. 
A chat with a few teachers isnt good enough evidence im afraid.

I really would find it almost unbelievable that a Labour administration would ever even contemplate such a wildly controversial move.


----------



## llantwit (Sep 2, 2006)

Last chance:

Karac man, I NAMED THE DOCUMENTS. The names of the documents are (again, for the 3rd time, just for you):
1) The Foundation Phase Curriculum
2) ESTYN's Framework for the Inspection of Schools*
I referred to relevant sections of the documents to do with bilingualism too - yes, in my own words, cos I didn't have copies to hand when I posted (I don't own copies, but have seen them, and heard them referred to many times, just in case you still don't believe they exist).
I think you'll find paraphrase to be relatively common occurence when making a point, and in general conversation. Unfortunately I don't own copies of them, and am not going to find them just to prove to some no-mark dimwitted fucker that I'm not a liar and a fantasist. 
I tend to take it for granted when chatting and debating with people that they aren't making shit up for the fun of it, btw. You obviously don't.






*Estyn is the office of Her Majesty's Chief Inspector of Education and Training in Wales - just for you - AGAIN.


----------



## Karac (Sep 2, 2006)

llantwit said:
			
		

> 'I give up' was written after I read the comment you then edited out - so don't come accross all innocent you cheeky cunt.


Your the cheeky cunt by the way-going into a sub-Western Mail letters page rant about "millions of pounds of public money" "bilingualism in all schools" "could be spent better elsewhere" without a single shred of fucking evidence!
Youve insulted people and demanded that your kids should not be educated "half in Welsh" 
THIS IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN FFS 
There maybe a few more Welsh medium schools here and there- thats all.
If it is then youve probably uncovered the single most revolutionary act in Welsh Education for many generations-all by yourself llantwit-but i doubt it i just think your being an hysterical twat.


----------



## llantwit (Sep 2, 2006)

If this is a wind up - OK, you got me. Well done.
But fuck off you stupid cunt.
If this is not a wind up - I marvel at the level of your stupidity.


----------



## llantwit (Sep 2, 2006)

Karac said:
			
		

> Youve insulted people


I've insulted you - because you've called me a liar.
I gave evidence - not just evidence, I've given you a fucken reading list.


----------



## Karac (Sep 2, 2006)

llantwit said:
			
		

> Last chance:
> 
> Karac man, I NAMED THE DOCUMENTS. The names of the documents are (again, for the 3rd time, just for you):
> 1) The Foundation Phase Curriculum
> ...


Just had a look at that document and it states
"How will bilingualism be delivered in the Foundation Phase? 

Welsh medium schools will continue to use the immersion strategy for developing children’s Welsh language skills but the Foundation Phase will bring a requirement for all English medium schools to provide children with more opportunities to learn and enjoy using the Welsh language through daily access to appropriate Welsh medium play based activities"

So that could mean 10 minutes of counting in Welsh or a quick flick through a childrens book in Welsh-thats not bilingualism you fucking cretin!
And id bet that goes on in most schools in Wales anyway-now!


----------



## llantwit (Sep 2, 2006)

Yawn.


----------



## llantwit (Sep 2, 2006)

Well done. At least you've noticed it is a document now.


----------



## niclas (Sep 2, 2006)

The Foundation Phase Curriculum is for kids aged 3-7. As Karac says, there'll be a bit of Welsh in class and that's it. Like when they introduce kids to French at primary school. Bilingual education? No way.

 Who the hell's going to teach it - there's a shortage of Welsh-speaking teachers as it is (although Glyn might change that  )

Anyway, you can all make up your own minds by going to http://new.wales.gov.uk/topics/educ...planning/104009-wag/foundation_phase/?lang=en

That's a link by the way - to a real document. Simple really.

I've searched the Estyn site and can't find its "Framework for the Inspection of Schools in Wales". Can Llantwit provide a link?


----------



## Karac (Sep 2, 2006)

llantwit said:
			
		

> Well done. At least you've noticed it is a document now.


I didnt read the document until half an hour ago because its basically obvious to any reasonably informed person that there is no move to bilingualism in all schools in Wales.
Now ive read the document its still obvious to me there is no move to bilingualism in all schools in Wales.

Bilingualism to me would mean equal weight given to teaching in Welsh and English not "the Foundation Phase will bring a requirement for all English medium schools to provide children with more opportunities to learn and enjoy using the Welsh language through daily access to appropriate Welsh medium play based activities" which could quite easily mean 10 minutes of un,dau,tri.

So all this hysterical guff about "millions of pounds,could be better spent elsewhere,i dont want my child taught half in Welsh,enforced bilingualism etc-i tell you its just around the corner"  (well at least you didnt play the "could pay for a Childrens Hospital card" to your credit) was just ill-informed cobblers.
I see your yawning now but it really pisses me off when conjecture and gossip is paraded as FACT! especially as it so often is around the Welsh language.


----------



## llantwit (Sep 3, 2006)

Karac said:
			
		

> its basically obvious to any reasonably informed person that there is no move to bilingualism in all schools in Wales.
> Now ive read the document its still obvious to me there is no move to bilingualism in all schools in Wales.


Before this document there was never any mention of bilingualism or the move towards bilingualism in documents that govern what's taught in English medium schools.
That suggests to me that this new development clearly represents 'a move towards bilingualism in schools'.
The very fact it's there surely suggests that.
Before there was Welsh on the curriculum, but it was as a separate subject - which is where I'd rather it stayed. This is a move towards introducing more general education through the medium of Welsh.




			
				Karac said:
			
		

> Bilingualism to me would mean equal weight given to teaching in Welsh and English not "the Foundation Phase will bring a requirement for all English medium schools to provide children with more opportunities to learn and enjoy using the Welsh language through daily access to appropriate Welsh medium play based activities" which could quite easily mean 10 minutes of un,dau,tri.


Which is why there's a difference between saying there's been a 'move towards' someting, and suggesting that it's already been implemented in full.




			
				Karac said:
			
		

> So all this hysterical guff about "millions of pounds,could be better spent elsewhere,i dont want my child taught half in Welsh,enforced bilingualism etc-i tell you its just around the corner"  (well at least you didnt play the "could pay for a Childrens Hospital card" to your credit) was just ill-informed cobblers.


The 'hysterical guff' you refer to is far from it. It's merely a statement of fact about the money that's already been spent on implementing this step towards bilingualism. It refers, specifically, to the milllions that have been spent on upgrading Carmarthen Training College (as was, dunno if it's a Uni now) to train the new classroom assistants to instruct kids in the Welsh language. I'm afraid I don't have evidence for this in the form of a link, but I was told it by  a senior early-years advisory teacher in Cardiff who consults for the Welsh Assembly on matters relating to early-years education.

[/QUOTE]I see your yawning now but it really pisses me off when conjecture and gossip is paraded as FACT! especially as it so often is around the Welsh language.[/QUOTE]
In the words of the imortal bard Taliesin: 'What-ever.'


----------



## llantwit (Sep 3, 2006)

niclas said:
			
		

> The Foundation Phase Curriculum is for kids aged 3-7. As Karac says, there'll be a bit of Welsh in class and that's it. Like when they introduce kids to French at primary school. Bilingual education? No way.


It's not like introducing French in class at all - otherwise it wouldn't be under the category 'Bilingual Education'. See post above.




			
				niclas said:
			
		

> Who the hell's going to teach it - there's a shortage of Welsh-speaking teachers as it is


They're gonna have to train and retrain a hell of a lot, and this will cost loads.




			
				niclas said:
			
		

> Anyway, you can all make up your own minds by going to http://new.wales.gov.uk/topics/educ...planning/104009-wag/foundation_phase/?lang=en
> That's a link by the way - to a real document. Simple really.
> I've searched the Estyn site and can't find its "Framework for the Inspection of Schools in Wales". Can Llantwit provide a link?


No I can't - I'll ask a friend for a copy just to please you, though, you sarcastic fucker.


----------



## niclas (Sep 3, 2006)

Nothing sarcastic - you've made a big claim so you should have a link to back it up rather than "paraphrasing".

As for retraining, er, if it's bilingual education that means *every* teacher is going to have to speak Welsh. You think that's just gone through on the nod? You think the teaching unions will just sign up for that? You think the finances are in place? You think it can be done by 2008? Do you honestly think there's such a policy in place or are you listening too much to scaremongering teachers?

*sees ghost of Kinnock and shivers*


----------



## llantwit (Sep 3, 2006)

Nowhere did I claim that there'd be full-on bilingual education by 2008.
The first (major) part of this thread was all about me arguing against the principal of bilingual welsh/english education for all - then, somewhere around post #50, Ddraig asked me what had changed recently to worry me, so I quoted the 2 docs I mentioned.
I see them as the thin end of the wedge, and an attempt to start the process of a transition to universal bilingual education in Wales on the quiet, that's all.


----------



## Brockway (Sep 3, 2006)

Llantwit could you clear a couple of things up for me which I'm still not quite clear on... are you against bilingual education and the Welsh language?  

How are your imaginary children today? Did they have a nice tea?


----------



## llantwit (Sep 3, 2006)

They say hello to Uncle Brockway - all 16 of them.
All together now:
'Bore Da Brockway!'
Heartwarming, eh?


----------



## llantwit (Sep 3, 2006)

And no, I'm not against the Welsh language - or bilingual education.
I'm against the *principle* of universal bilingual welsh-english education for all in Wales.
And I'm really, really, tired of this thread now, too. Like totally fed up with it, so if nobody minds, I'll leave it there.


----------



## Col_Buendia (Sep 4, 2006)

How do you feel about your lard-ass kids being denied their right to choose to eat deep-fried mars bars at school, though, that's the question??

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/5305990.stm


----------



## neprimerimye (Sep 5, 2006)

bonheddwr said:
			
		

> What you must respect is that Wales is a bilingual country, with two official languages - Welsh and English.QUOTE]
> 
> What you must realise is that individual people and states are bilingual. Countries do not speak any particular language at all.
> 
> Another thing you must realise is that the other Welsh language that is not English has no relevance to most English speakers in this country.


----------



## neprimerimye (Sep 5, 2006)

Brockway said:
			
		

> Your kids might end up having to move to England (or Germany) to get a decent job because of your narrow minded outlook. What if they decide to get a job in the media? They'll be fucked. You've probably already ruined their lives. I hope you're proud of yourself llantwit......



Hey thats would be terrible having to move to Germany where wages and conditions are better than in Wales.


----------



## neprimerimye (Sep 5, 2006)

editor said:
			
		

> Actually, the  language of the country you live in was - for many, many hundreds of years - Welsh and that was only changed as a result of England forcing English on the population.



Myth. It is certainly true that the Welsh language was persecuted and that did have an adverse affect on the numbers speaking the language. But the overall decline in percentage of the population speaking Welsh cannot be attributed to that alone.

For example there was, as a result of industrialisation, a massive influx of Irish and English workers who were monolingual in English. Their presence distorted the percentage speaking Welsh by a conisiderable degree. It is also quite obvious that their descendents have no Welsh heritage in the sense of having been deprived of a language their forebears did not speak.


----------



## neprimerimye (Sep 5, 2006)

editor said:
			
		

> But _it's the native language of the country_, so why shouldn't people who live there be encouraged to learn it?
> 
> Learning Welsh gives kids a better understanding of the history, heritage and culture of their country. It helps them make sense of modern Wales.
> 
> What's wrong with that?



Plenty.

Who decides what the history, heritage and culture of a country is?

For my part I would like to see the history of Wales taught as the history of the class struggle in this little country. I would like to see the Merthyr Rising, Rebecca, the Chartist movement, the Fed and so forth celebrated. But to do that properly history must be taught from a working class and internationalist perspective.

What I do not want to see is the history of Wales presented as revolving around a bunch of parasitic Princes who oppressed the peasantry, regardless of what language they spoke, and a folkloric vision of an idyllic rural Wales that never existed. Fuck that nationalist shit.


----------



## neprimerimye (Sep 5, 2006)

Brockway said:
			
		

> Yes I heard that statistic on the radio. No, I didn't mishear it. Send your complaint to Bush House and stop infering that I made it up - you cheeky git.
> 
> I didn't "assert" that China has 3 languages - I said "I think" it has 3 languages which was in response to your assertion that it is mostly monoglot. You now seem to have acquired a vast wealth of knowledge about linguistics in that area of the world. But thanks for the info that China has dozens of languages - I'm sure at least some of the population are bilingual don't you, probably in their local tongue and the official language of the area (hmmm... sounds familiar).
> 
> ...



On statistics i'm afraid you must d better. Check out the CIA on line resources on this and you will find your 'fact' is hokum.

As for China I again refer you to the CIA or if you like to Wikipedia. But whatever the resource you choose to use you wll find that the overwhelming majority of the population is monoglot or that their second language is English.

As for your 'vision' - drunken phantasy more like - of a bilingual Wales I note that it revolves around the state using monies collected from monoglot English speakers to 'persuade' their children to speak a language not their own. How very democratic.  

It is however curious that you recognise that even in a 'bilingual' Wales popular culture would be dictated not by the mass of the population but by massive capitalist companies such as the one that made Pirates of the Caribbean.

I can only conclude that for all your talk of choice you understand that word in a fashion rather akin to Henry Ford. You can choose any colour car you want as long as its black.


----------



## neprimerimye (Sep 5, 2006)

A quick note on China that should disprove the nonsense that 75% oof the worlds population are bilingual. There are in China 800 million speakers of Mandarin and from year two the entire education system, other than in the numerically insignificant autonomous regions, is based on that language regardless of the dialect spoken locally.

I further note that according to The Economist 20% of the entire population speaks or is studying English. In additon to which I note that Mandarin speakers constitute a pluraility of the population with only 9% of the population belonging to miinority ethnic groups not all of whom have their own languages ie the Hui (Muslim Chinese) speak Mandarin. Although it should not be ignored that millions of ethnic Chinese speak dialects other than Mandarin of course.

In any case well over half of all Chinese speak Mandarin and Mandarin alone. Given that China is the most populous country on this planet it follows that if 75% of the worlds population are bilingual there must be some countries, with hundreds of millions in population, that are almost completely bilingual. Strangely none come to mind.


----------



## ICB (Sep 5, 2006)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> Given that China is the most populous country on this planet it follows that if 75% of the worlds population are bilingual there must be some countries, with hundreds of millions in population, that are almost completely bilingual. Strangely none come to mind.



India?  India's population is going to overtake China's pretty soon.




			
				The Times of India said:
			
		

> Professor David Crystal, author of the Cambridge Encyclopaedia of the English Language, says that no one 'owns' English anymore. It is the global language and a quarter of the world's population uses it. Three-quarters of the world's people are naturally bilingual, he adds.


source

List of multilingual countries and regions


----------



## neprimerimye (Sep 5, 2006)

ICB said:
			
		

> India?  India's population is going to overtake China's pretty soon.
> 
> source
> 
> List of multilingual countries and regions



Good useful material for which I thank you. That English is no longer the exclusive property of Britain is however old news. Indeed its dissasociation from imperialism since political independence was achieved for India has often been remarked on. Just as the use of Hindi by adocates of Hindutva ideology is a point which Welsh nationalists ought to find of some interest.

But the idea that 3/4 of the worlds populations is 'naturally bilingual' is academic sleight of hand. The point being that either 3/4 of the worlds population either are or are not bilingual. What counts is not being 'naturally bilingual', whatever that might mean, but actually being bilingual. That is really having the ability to speak two seperate languages to some degree of fluency.


----------



## Col_Buendia (Sep 5, 2006)

Here Nep, does it really matter *what* language you speak if no one is talking back to you?


----------



## neprimerimye (Sep 5, 2006)

Col_Buendia said:
			
		

> Here Nep, does it really matter *what* language you speak if no one is talking back to you?



Well those who disagree with me are, or would like to be, bilingual so I'm struck by their lack of arguments in any language.


----------



## niclas (Sep 6, 2006)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> As for your 'vision' - drunken phantasy more like - of a bilingual Wales I note that it revolves around the state using monies collected from monoglot English speakers to 'persuade' their children to speak a language not their own. How very democratic.



Mmm, by the same token shall we stop giving money to disabled people who are unable to work because it comes from taxes from those in work? How very unsocialist. 

What a fucked up world you live in.

And even that warped logic is flawed. The state only provides Welsh-language schools where there is a demand from parents. How is the state "persuading" monoglots to speak an extra language?


----------



## neprimerimye (Sep 6, 2006)

niclas said:
			
		

> Mmm, by the same token shall we stop giving money to disabled people who are unable to work because it comes from taxes from those in work? How very unsocialist.
> 
> What a fucked up world you live in.
> 
> And even that warped logic is flawed. The state only provides Welsh-language schools where there is a demand from parents. How is the state "persuading" monoglots to speak an extra language?



Indeed I live in a fucked up world this one.

But I see that you choose to take a stand on the issue of logic. A pity then that your command of it is so weak.

For example you deny that the state has programs designed to persuade Anglophone Welsh speakers to learn Welsh as as evidence of that assertion point out that Welsh medium schools are only provided when demand exists for them. Which is true but besides the point entirely. And ignores completely the state financed programs aimed at persuading Anglophones to learn Welsh that are advertised in the media.

Logically speaking your argument in lacking any evidence for its central assertion is false. I note that there are, contrary to your assertions, a number of state financed and sponsored programs designed to encourage and persuade adults to learn or use the Welsh language.

I also find myself disgusted by your emotive comparison of benefits paid to individuals due to their disabilities to state financed programs which are of benefit to one section of the polity at the expense of the majority. Clearly in any civilised society all citizens should have the right to work or full benefit at a decent rate. No direct comparison can be made legitinately between bebefits paid to individuals and to language rights which are by definition collective in nature and must be dealt with as such. Again your 'logic' once examined is in fact bullshit.


----------



## Brockway (Sep 6, 2006)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> Well those who disagree with me are, or would like to be, bilingual so I'm struck by their lack of arguments in any language.



Out of interest Nep when are you coming down to my council estate to deliver us from oppression? Top Tip: don't do it when Eastenders is on.  

No offence but you seem more connected to your computer than the man on the street.


----------



## neprimerimye (Sep 6, 2006)

Brockway said:
			
		

> Out of interest Nep when are you coming down to my council estate to deliver us from oppression? Top Tip: don't do it when Eastenders is on.
> 
> No offence but you seem more connected to your computer than the man on the street.



I aint. You gotta do it yerself innit. 

No offence but you know shit about me. How about sticking to the issues?


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## RubberBuccaneer (Sep 6, 2006)

What's the point in viewing the whole world/history etc in one view - that of a class struggle.

It's just as bad as seeing everything through a Christian or Islamic point of view.


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## neprimerimye (Sep 6, 2006)

RubberBuccaneer said:
			
		

> What's the point in viewing the whole world/history etc in one view - that of a class struggle.
> 
> It's just as bad as seeing everything through a Christian or Islamic point of view.



Off topic but I'll answer anyway.

The argument for viewing history as in essence the history of the struggle between classes is that it, historical materialism, that is based on a non-ideological interpretation of world history. That is to say it is based on material facts.

Idealist interpretations of history, Xian or nationalist interpretations for example, are on the contrary based on pre-existing ideas which are not related to the facts as known. They are then ideological in that they develop a world view that is based on a false consciousness.

I note that Marxism is not the only possible school of historical materialism they are for example the annalles and subaltern studies schools. I further note that historical materialism does not reduce all historical phenomena to crude questions of economic class as is often alleged.


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## RubberBuccaneer (Sep 6, 2006)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> Off topic but I'll answer anyway.
> 
> The argument for viewing history as in essence the history of the struggle between classes is that it, historical materialism, that is based on a non-ideological interpretation of world history. That is to say it is based on material facts.
> 
> ...



Facts or interpretations ( as in all history ), you may have statistics sayin ghow many miners worked in eash pit e.g. but history apart from that is interpretaion - see any two reports on the sam football match/demo 

Besides was facts are certain about the Egyptians, or does history only start in the last two centuries.


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## Brockway (Sep 6, 2006)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> Off topic but I'll answer anyway.
> 
> The argument for viewing history as in essence the history of the struggle between classes is that it, historical materialism, that is based on a non-ideological interpretation of world history. That is to say it is based on material facts.
> 
> ...



No offence but you haven't got an original idea in your head Nep. You learnt that from a book and take it as gospel. It's just another rigid systematic theory inappropriately applied to people - one which no doubt suits your self-image. It doesn't take into account the vagaries or complexities of human nature. But worst of all it is incredibly boring. When are you coming down to my area to explain the above to the people so that we can liberate ourselves? 

Out of interest is there currently a country on earth which successfully applies your political beliefs?


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## neprimerimye (Sep 6, 2006)

RubberBuccaneer said:
			
		

> Facts or interpretations ( as in all history ), you may have statistics sayin ghow many miners worked in eash pit e.g. but history apart from that is interpretaion - see any two reports on the sam football match/demo
> 
> Besides was facts are certain about the Egyptians, or does history only start in the last two centuries.



Certainly the historical record is open to interpretation but a materialist interpretation, unlike idealist interpretations, is bound to the facts as known. Equally importantly Marxist historical studies ae concerned with the materialist method as well as cold statistics which tell us little of course in isolation from the living class struggle.

There are plenty of known and verifiable facts concerning the Egyptians as my old pal Al Richardson whose hobby it was to translate stylae would have informed you.


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## neprimerimye (Sep 6, 2006)

Brockway said:
			
		

> No offence but you haven't got an original idea in your head Nep. You learnt that from a book and take it as gospel. It's just another rigid systematic theory inappropriately applied to people - one which no doubt suits your self-image. It doesn't take into account the vagaries or complexities of human nature. But worst of all it is incredibly boring. When are you coming down to my area to explain the above to the people so that we can liberate ourselves?
> 
> Out of interest is there currently a country on earth which successfully applies your political beliefs?



More and more of topic. Perhaps you ought to begin a new thread? But as you ask direct questions of me it would be churlish not to reply.

In which case I'm, amused that you think that my having studied history and indeed historical materialism n books is somehow suspect. Where else would I have come across such ideas by the way? But while I make no arrogant claims to have developed 'original ideas' of my own, who has pray tell, I have made efforts to understand those ideas as best I can which is the most any of us can do. Which means that it is not taken as gospel but is open to criticism more so than your own false gospels, wherever they be, given that the Marxist method is one that demands self criticism as Korsch noted.

That tyou do not have the slightest comprehension of this method, despite your arrogant dismissal of it, is evidence by your sily remark that it makes no acount of "the vagaries or complexities of human nature." Which remark is doubly wrong in that in the first instance it presumes that human nature is a fixed static thing unchanging regardless of material circumstances which I would suggest is simplistic and very dull indeed. In the second instance it is quite wrong in that Marxism has long maintained that the role of the individual is as a matter of course of incredible importance for any materialist understanding of history. As evidence I mention only the well known, in its day at least, essay of Plekhanov 'The Role of the Individual in History'.

DIY and No.


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## Gavin Bl (Sep 6, 2006)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> Who decides what the history, heritage and culture of a country is?
> 
> For my part I would like to see the history of Wales taught as the history of the class struggle in this little country. I would like to see the Merthyr Rising, Rebecca, the Chartist movement, the Fed and so forth celebrated. But to do that properly history must be taught from a working class and internationalist perspective.
> 
> What I do not want to see is the history of Wales presented as revolving around a bunch of parasitic Princes who oppressed the peasantry, regardless of what language they spoke, and a folkloric vision of an idyllic rural Wales that never existed. Fuck that nationalist shit.



IME, the teachers keenest on the teaching of welsh, were also keenest on the teaching of its radical history. I was taught alot more about the Chartism, Rebecca etc, than I ever was about Owain Glyndwr and so on.


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## RubberBuccaneer (Sep 6, 2006)

It is relevant to the thread tho...a thread about the Welsh language boiled down to a world view that's yours.

I maintain that this view takes no account into the majority of peoples feelings, beliefs or sense of their identity...which is one of the most important things with a language....

We all share various identities whether it's UK born Somali, North Walian, Valley boy, punk rocker, punk veggie.....many world views all mixed and interacting.

Your thinking is black and white. One view fits all.


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## neprimerimye (Sep 6, 2006)

Gavin Bl said:
			
		

> IME, the teachers keenest on the teaching of welsh, were also keenest on the teaching of its radical history. I was taught alot more about the Chartism, Rebecca etc, than I ever was about Owain Glyndwr and so on.



Fine and good but there is no direct causal connection between your having been taught a little about popular movements of the past and your having been taught it in Welsh. I can write this with absolute confidance as I too was taught abiout such movements, together with shit loads about various chapels, only in the English language. The fact is that Welsh historiography, even today, is loosely speaking Labourite regarding of language or party affiliation.


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## neprimerimye (Sep 6, 2006)

RubberBuccaneer said:
			
		

> It is relevant to the thread tho...a thread about the Welsh language boiled down to a world view that's yours.
> 
> I maintain that this view takes no account into the majority of peoples feelings, beliefs or sense of their identity...which is one of the most important things with a language....
> 
> ...



You can maintain what you wll but the fact is that the historical materialist view of history does take into account the attachment of peoples t their languages and/or national/ethnic identities. But in the fianal analyssis, which never arrives mark you, history is determined by the contradiction between the forces and means of production. Given that labour is one such force of production it follows, quite logically, that the feelings and desires (political consciouisness if you like) of the individuals that make up the toiling classes are a material force if acted on by the masses.

While I agree that we all have many different aspects to our indentities, though I fall into none of those you name, these are not of equal weight. It would be silly for example to pretend that an assumed identity as a punk is as important as one national identity regardless of ones views of either punk rock or nationalism. More fundamentally I would sugest that a materialist understanding will indicate that at base the most important aspect that constitutes ones social identity is, in the modern era, that of social class.


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## Brockway (Sep 6, 2006)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> More and more of topic. Perhaps you ought to begin a new thread? But as you ask direct questions of me it would be churlish not to reply.
> 
> In which case I'm, amused that you think that my having studied history and indeed historical materialism n books is somehow suspect. Where else would I have come across such ideas by the way? But while I make no arrogant claims to have developed 'original ideas' of my own, who has pray tell, I have made efforts to understand those ideas as best I can which is the most any of us can do. Which means that it is not taken as gospel but is open to criticism more so than your own false gospels, wherever they be, given that the Marxist method is one that demands self criticism as Korsch noted.
> 
> ...



You can get ideas from a lot places other than in history books. Like talking to people; or empirical observation. 

How can a phrase like "the vagaries or complexities of human nature" be read as human nature being a "fixed static thing" ffs? I'm saying the exact opposite - that human nature is varied and complex and not fixed at all.  

'The Role of the Individual in History' - thanks for the tip, good read is it?  The truth is Nep you have spent a lot of time and effort studying all that shit and to admit that it's just another bullshit catch-all system would mean the collapse of your entire life.

And what about the psychology of why you believe in Marxism and not say Buddhism? Don't you think that upbringing, for instance, has any effect on political viewpoints and belief systems? If you had been say the son of a shopkeeper in Cheltenham you would think that Marxism was bollocks. So why the absolute certainty now that you are right - isn't that just terrible egocentricity and borderline megalomania?  

It's a shame no country on earth successfully applies your political beliefs we could have had a whip-round to send you there.


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## RubberBuccaneer (Sep 6, 2006)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> There are plenty of known and verifiable facts concerning the Egyptians as my old pal Al Richardson whose hobby it was to translate stylae would have informed you.



written by who ?

The victors no doubt


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## neprimerimye (Sep 6, 2006)

Brockway said:
			
		

> You can get ideas from a lot places other than in history books. Like talking to people; or empirical observation.
> 
> How can a phrase like "the vagaries or complexities of human nature" be read as human nature being a "fixed static thing" ffs? I'm saying the exact opposite - that human nature is varied and complex and not fixed at all.
> 
> ...



Certainly you can get ideas from many different sources. The point is how and why do those ideas originate. Given which I prefer to take ideas on, for sake of example, the origin of the species from Darwin and Gould than from the Bible or Quran. And certainly not from some numbskull in a pub or empircal observation which will yield nothing of value on its own.

In view of your latest remarks and your failure to actually take on board and counter the arguments I have ut to you I cannot but conclude that you are some kind of enthusiast for pomo. In which case you will indeed know a lot about shite as that is all that idiotic doctrine consists of.

Which opinion is born out by your final impotent salvo which actually suggests that the Marxist conception of material being determining social consciousness is correct. Not that you realised that when writing it no doubt. But then you also write that of my alleged "absolute certainty now that you are right" which is utter nonsense and refuted by my previous post which indicated that Marxism is first of all a critical theory.

Feel free to have a whip round for me mind.


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## bonheddwr (Sep 6, 2006)

Llantwit, you've been changing your story from your first post. You started by saying that a New Welsh Language Act had been passed and meant that ALL schools would now become bilingual! Is anyone really supposed to take you seriously after that? You are now back-tracking BIG TIME! 

There is only a small refernce in the 'Foundation Phase 3-7 Years' document to do with 'bilingualism' which states:

"the Foundation Phase will bring a requirement for all English medium schools to provide children with more opportunities to learn and enjoy using the Welsh language through daily access to appropriate Welsh medium play based activities"

You've obviously got a massive chip on your shoulder, you've made things up as you go along to try and strengthen your argyment, but have been caught out.

All schools in Wales SHOULD be bilingual, so that the children of ignorant parents are not deprived the right of speaking both of Wales' national languages. But this is not the case at present, so don't worry, the nasty Welshies won't get your children... jus yet!


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## Brockway (Sep 6, 2006)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> Feel free to have a whip round for me mind.



You should be exiled to Flat Holm until you pass your Welsh GCSE. Then, and only then, should you be allowed back on the mainland. The same goes for that other dangerous radical Llantwit.


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## neprimerimye (Sep 6, 2006)

Brockway said:
			
		

> You should be exiled to Flat Holm until you pass your Welsh GCSE. Then, and only then, should you be allowed back on the mainland. The same goes for that other dangerous radical Llantwit.



So no whip round and no rational argument........  

At a push I reckon I could swim back from Flat Holm.


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## neprimerimye (Sep 6, 2006)

bonheddwr said:
			
		

> All schools in Wales SHOULD be bilingual, so that the children of ignorant parents are not deprived the right of speaking both of Wales' national languages. But this is not the case at present, so don't worry, the nasty Welshies won't get your children... jus yet!



Llantwit, if I understand him correctly, as Welsh as you soft lad.

Now getting back to the question why should all schools in Wales be bilingual? Cos you want them to be? Not much of an argument.

Face facts national languages simply cannot compete, and compete they must, with languages of world status. And in a country where one of the two competing languages is also a world language the simple fact is that even should they have the ability to use the other language most people for whom the world status language is also their mother tongue wil always chose to use that first in any and al concievable situations.

In other words without state backing and support the smaller language will not be used even if people have the ability to use it. And attempts to persuade anglophones to do so will not, in the long run, make any difference.

That said as an imperiled minority language Welsh should receive state support to a degree disproportionate, over and above, its base precisely because that is the only way to guarantee the rights of those who speak it. But not at the expense of anglophone Welsh people to speak our language in our country.


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## Gentleman Taff (Sep 7, 2006)

Arise ye workers from your slumbers
Arise ye prisoners of want
For reason in revolt now thunders
And at last ends the age of cant.
Away with all your superstitions
Servile masses arise, arise
We'll change henceforth the old tradition
And spurn the dust to win the prize.

Refrain:
So comrades, come rally
And the last fight let us face
The Internationale unites the human race.

No more deluded by reaction
On tyrants only we'll make war
The soldiers too will take strike action
They'll break ranks and fight no more
And if those cannibals keep trying
To sacrifice us to their pride
They soon shall hear the bullets flying
We'll shoot the generals on our own side.

No saviour from on high delivers
No faith have we in prince or peer
Our own right hand the chains must shiver
Chains of hatred, greed and fear
E'er the thieves will out with their booty
And give to all a happier lot.
Each at the forge must do their duty
And we'll strike while the iron is hot

Fucking cultural imperialist


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## llantwit (Sep 7, 2006)

Fuck you Bonheddwr - if I've got a chip on my shoulder it's about fundy cunts like you who want to impose a minority language on everyone in Wales irrespective of what they want. That chip I'm proud to have. Twat.




			
				bonheddwr said:
			
		

> Llantwit, you've been changing your story from your first post. You started by saying that a New Welsh Language Act had been passed and meant that ALL schools would now become bilingual! Is anyone really supposed to take you seriously after that? You are now back-tracking BIG TIME!
> 
> There is only a small refernce in the 'Foundation Phase 3-7 Years' document to do with 'bilingualism' which states:
> 
> ...


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## Gavin Bl (Sep 7, 2006)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> Fine and good but there is no direct causal connection between your having been taught a little about popular movements of the past and your having been taught it in Welsh. I can write this with absolute confidance as I too was taught abiout such movements, together with shit loads about various chapels, only in the English language. The fact is that Welsh historiography, even today, is loosely speaking Labourite regarding of language or party affiliation.



Who said I was taught it in Welsh? I was taught in English. My point was that there was not a separation you implied in your post, between English speaking socialists who wanted to teach 1831 and all that, and Welsh speakers who wanted to teach about Glyndwr. Very often the ones most pro-Welsh were the also the ones most pro-radical history.

Despite mistrust of welsh speakers in parts of south wales, nationalism and socialism are welded together quite strongly in many valleys' peoples view - and as there is a greater embracing of the language in the valleys, that is likely to increase.

There are undoubtedly fault lines in there, as there always is with left-wing nationalism, but that doesn't mean it isn't a very widely-held view or that it can't be a vehicle for progressive change.


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## neprimerimye (Sep 7, 2006)

Gavin Bl said:
			
		

> Who said I was taught it in Welsh? I was taught in English. My point was that there was not a separation you implied in your post, between English speaking socialists who wanted to teach 1831 and all that, and Welsh speakers who wanted to teach about Glyndwr. Very often the ones most pro-Welsh were the also the ones most pro-radical history.
> 
> Despite mistrust of welsh speakers in parts of south wales, nationalism and socialism are welded together quite strongly in many valleys' peoples view - and as there is a greater embracing of the language in the valleys, that is likely to increase.
> 
> There are undoubtedly fault lines in there, as there always is with left-wing nationalism, but that doesn't mean it isn't a very widely-held view or that it can't be a vehicle for progressive change.



In point of fact I implied nothing of the kind. In fact I pointed out that Anglophone teachers taught the same interpretation of Welsh history for the same reason ie the hegemony of the labourite/populist tradition over Welsh historiography. But it is labourite, laterly populist, interpretation of history and not openly socialist. That is important to realise I believe.

However I agree with your cmment that there is a convergence of what remains of labourite ideology, the Welsh language and Welsh nationalism in the valleys region. And I wrote labourism because that is what itis not socialism. Such a convergence should not be overestimated however and the allegiance of many people to the Labour Party remains, more or less intact, and the tide of nationalism/welsh language is not as strong as you hope I suspect. Moreover this is overall a declining region which has an aging population base. It weight in Wales as a whole is then likely to diminish in the long run just as much as the Barry-Cardiff-Newport belt is likely to increase in importance.

But this is far off discussing the Welsh language now is it not? So i'll end this post by laughing  at your absurd suggestion that very soft left nationalism, tied to a party that is essentially bourgeois such as Plaid Cymru, can ever be a practical vehicle for either socialism or a Welsh state.


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## Karac (Sep 7, 2006)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> But this is far off discussing the Welsh language now is it not? So i'll end this post by laughing  at your absurd suggestion that very soft left nationalism, tied to a party that is essentially bourgeois such as Plaid Cymru, can ever be a practical vehicle for either socialism or a Welsh state.


Unlike the mass based Neprimimye Party centered around an OAP College Lecturer who was previously a long standing member of Militant,until he was flirty fished by the swoppies-and then kicked out for being too sectarian (a major achievement)


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## bonheddwr (Sep 7, 2006)

llantwit said:
			
		

> Fuck you Bonheddwr - if I've got a chip on my shoulder it's about fundy cunts like you who want to impose a minority language on everyone in Wales irrespective of what they want. That chip I'm proud to have. Twat.



Cool heads Twit.  

It's not about imposing, it's about giving every child in Wales the ability, the opportunity and the right to use Welsh IF THEY WANT TO!

Now, you haven't given any coherent argument as to why teaching our children in Wales bilingually would be detrimental to their education. You just want the right not to have a bilingual child. 

It's obvious that you have a chip on your shoulder, but you will not explain why? Were you told off in Welsh class for mispronouncing a Welsh word?


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## neprimerimye (Sep 8, 2006)

Karac said:
			
		

> Unlike the mass based Neprimimye Party centered around an OAP College Lecturer who was previously a long standing member of Militant,until he was flirty fished by the swoppies-and then kicked out for being too sectarian (a major achievement)



I'm fairly sure that I have never been either a member of the RSL or a college lecturer and have not a sectarian bone in my body.


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## neprimerimye (Sep 8, 2006)

bonheddwr said:
			
		

> It's not about imposing, it's about giving every child in Wales the ability, the opportunity and the right to use Welsh IF THEY WANT TO!
> 
> Now, you haven't given any coherent argument as to why teaching our children in Wales bilingually would be detrimental to their education. You just want the right not to have a bilingual child.



In what sense are any Llantwits children 'ours'?

Moreover as he has pointed out a number of times his children are being brought up in a bilingual household.

You just want the right to impose your language on a majority, who if their non-use of it is any proof, have no interest in your language.


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## ddraig (Sep 8, 2006)

*point of order!*

llantwit does not have any kids! 

<leaves fresh buns for throwers>


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## neprimerimye (Sep 8, 2006)

ddraig said:
			
		

> llantwit does not have any kids!
> 
> <leaves fresh buns for throwers>



This is the net we aren't dealing with reality but hypotheses.

Not that nationalism, in either political or linguistic forms, ever deals with reality come to that.


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## Gavin Bl (Sep 8, 2006)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> In point of fact I implied nothing of the kind.



You clearly assumed that I was taught in welsh - as you stated below...




			
				neprimerimye said:
			
		

> Fine and good but there is no direct causal connection between your having been taught a little about popular movements of the past and your having been taught it in Welsh. I can write this with absolute confidance as I too was taught abiout such movements, together with shit loads about various chapels, only in the English language



my dreadful attempts a writing welsh on 'Siarad Cymraeg Siarad Cymraeg' should amply demonstrate that I wasn't taught in it. 

my point about left-wing nationalism was that it is a widely held view, and and can provide the basis for progressive change, I don't recall mentioning establishing states, or what you would call socialism, as opposed to Labourism. Its where most people are at.


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## Gavin Bl (Sep 8, 2006)

.


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## neprimerimye (Sep 8, 2006)

Gavin Bl said:
			
		

> You clearly assumed that I was taught in welsh - as you stated below...
> 
> my dreadful attempts a writing welsh on 'Siarad Cymraeg Siarad Cymraeg' should amply demonstrate that I wasn't taught in it.
> 
> my point about left-wing nationalism was that it is a widely held view, and and can provide the basis for progressive change, I don't recall mentioning establishing states, or what you would call socialism, as opposed to Labourism. Its where most people are at.



Yes i did but my comment with regard to yur drawing a false implication did not refer to that. it went to your cmment re the labourite/populist interpretation of Welsh history. That wasn't clear I'm afraid so my apologies on that score.

So called left-wing nationalism may be a widely held view but it is a minority view and seems in current circumstances unlikely to expand out of its current area of influence. As such it seems unlikely to be a vehicle for progressive change in Welsh society as a whole.

In any case most people in Wales do not agree with left-wing (Welsh) nationalism but support the denatured labourism that is hegemonic even today in this country. Regardless of what party they vote for it seems in that even Tory voters support the NHS and other institutions critical to the degenerate labourite concensus that we are stuck with for the foreseeable future.


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