# Deliveroo  - and minimum age for cycle courier



## ChrisD (Sep 9, 2015)

My son (aged 16) and just starting A levels seems to have got himself a job with Deliveroo. He is an experienced cyclist and already works Saturdays at a local bike shop.	This new job will be "self employed".  I've asked him if Deliveroo provides any insurance but so far he hasn't got a copy of whatever he signed up to.
Mrs ChrisD is very concerned about him hanging around town late at night.

Is 16 too young for this sort of work?   
anyone know what this company is like to it's couriers?
what about insurance / liability ?


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## joustmaster (Sep 9, 2015)

I don't think it will be super late work. Not like your normal Just-Eat delivery.
They do GBK and stuff like that, so 11pm latest, I guess.


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## Pickman's model (Sep 9, 2015)

cesare, there's someone at the door for you


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## cesare (Sep 9, 2015)

You can be self employed if you're under 18 but a parent or guardian would need to sign any legal documents etc. Also you'd need to check out if the same rules apply with self employment of under 18 year olds that apply when they are employed, which include bylaws, and relate to maximum hours of work etc.

Deliveroo should have public and employer liability insurance but worth double checking.

The thing is, self employment means that you're responsible for your own financial risks together with any specific requirements particular to your own situation e.g. additional insurance.

However, some companies will call something "self employment" even though it's actually a job and the reality is that they're employed. If Deliveroo are above board they'll be providing more information perhaps (but not necessarily) in the form of a contract for services.


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## mauvais (Sep 9, 2015)

Young people and employment - Citizens Advice

They have to do an H&S risk assessment for under-18s, plus no working after 11pm with a few get-outs.


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## ChrisD (Sep 9, 2015)

there's another concern with bike stability of a load supported only attached to the seat tube... I followed a courier the other day and it was bouncing up and down which I would have thought affects stability?


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## maomao (Sep 9, 2015)

I'm not sure. I've met couriers under 18 but never worked with one. I think you need to be 18 to enter into a contract so it's dodgy ground unless they're actually employing him.


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## maomao (Sep 9, 2015)

mauvais said:


> Young people and employment - Citizens Advice
> 
> They have to do an H&S risk assessment for under-18s, plus no working after 11pm with a few get-outs.


Is he employed though? Most couriers are self-employed.


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## mauvais (Sep 9, 2015)

maomao said:


> Is he employed though? Most couriers are self-employed.


It depends, but realistically they'd probably be unlikely to pass the tax criteria for self-employed. It feels like an employer/employee relationship. Even if not, he would presumably be bound by those restrictions as his own employer.

It's also possible to enter into a contract, although there are some restrictions/safeguards.


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## maomao (Sep 9, 2015)

mauvais said:


> It depends, but realistically they'd probably be unlikely to pass the tax criteria for self-employed. It feels like an employer/employee relationship. Even if not, he would presumably be bound by those restrictions as his own employer.
> 
> It's also possible to enter into a contract, although there are some restrictions/safeguards.


I work in the courier and private hire industry and have done on and off for 20 years. Couriers are self-employed for tax purposes and legally are not employees. As it stands the courier companies believe that they have no right to a minimum wage, holiday pay or protection from unfair dismissal. There's yet to be a definitive attempt to overturn this despite the fact that working as a courier is a lot more like being employed than being properly self-employed.

Interestingly Deliveroo seem to be paying an hourly rate (which is rare overall but common in start ups who don't have enough work for riders/drivers to make a living) but specifically state in their job ads that it's a self-employed position. A London company once got in quite a lot of financial trouble when one of its drivers, who was on a similar guaranteed wage, got done for non payment of taxes and passed the buck to the company on the basis that he was paid a set wage for set hours.

It's a massive grey area anyway.


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## mauvais (Sep 9, 2015)

Fair enough. Certainly in IT the definition has become quite well-formed after the tax dodges etc leading up to IR35.


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## maomao (Sep 9, 2015)




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## sim667 (Sep 9, 2015)

There's a bike courier on here isn't there?


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## Supine (Sep 9, 2015)

I worked as a London cycle courier for a year. Although it was 88-89 so any info I have is out of date 

When I did it we got a check every Friday and no tax was paid. Quite a bit was spent on replacing stolen bikes though. That box on the bike looks tough, I'd prefer a bag on my back.


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## trabuquera (Sep 9, 2015)

anecdotally only - I have seen at least 3 Deliveroo riders in the past fortnight going extremely erratically and dangerously amid traffic; to my mind the company are completely slapdash about safety and there's no way I would want a teenager of mine working for them.


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## maomao (Sep 9, 2015)

sim667 said:


> There's a bike courier on here isn't there?


There's quite a few ex-couriers including myself. Don't know if there's any current ones.


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## Pickman's model (Sep 9, 2015)

.


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## ChrisD (Sep 9, 2015)

Now seen "the contract" which doesn't look very good (but I'm no expert) so would value other opinions...

 ... Nothing in this Agreement will make the Consultant an employee of the Company or be construed as having such effect.  The Consultant shall indemnify the Company against any and all liability arising from any employment related claim or any claim based on worker status (including all costs and expenses incurred by the Company) brought by the Consultant or any substitute of the Consultant pursuant to clause 2.9 against the Company arising out of or in connection with the provision of the Services. 

.... 
..  The Consultant shall pay a refundable £50 equipment deposit which shall be set off against the Consultant’s fees....

.  CONSULTANT’S WARRANTIES, UNDERTAKINGS AND OBLIGATIONS

  The Consultant warrants and represents to the Company:

  that [he/she] has the necessary skill and knowledge to perform the Services under this Agreement; 

 that [he/she] will not, in entering into this agreement or performing the Services be in breach of the terms of any contract, whether express or implied or of any other obligation binding upon [him/her]; 

1.1.3  that [he/she] is an independent contractor 

so can a 16 year old be "an independent contractor" ?


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## equationgirl (Sep 9, 2015)

ChrisD said:


> Now seen "the contract" which doesn't look very good (but I'm no expert) so would value other opinions...
> 
> ... Nothing in this Agreement will make the Consultant an employee of the Company or be construed as having such effect.  The Consultant shall indemnify the Company against any and all liability arising from any employment related claim or any claim based on worker status (including all costs and expenses incurred by the Company) brought by the Consultant or any substitute of the Consultant pursuant to clause 2.9 against the Company arising out of or in connection with the provision of the Services.
> 
> ...


Personally I'd be more concerned about the indemnity clause where he's agreeing to indemnify (insure) the company in respect of certain financial liability costs. Which do not in this clause appear to be capped.

Pm me the whole thing if you like. I am not a lawyer though, I do contract negotiations a lot a workas part of my job.


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## maomao (Sep 9, 2015)

equationgirl said:


> Personally I'd be more concerned about the indemnity clause where he's agreeing to indemnify (insure) the company in respect of certain financial liability costs. Which do not in this clause appear to be capped.


Doesn't that only relate to the 'any employment related claim or any claim based on worker status' bit? Which is just a bit of a scarer clause anyway because if any court or tribunal did find the courier was legally an employee that clause would never stand up.


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## equationgirl (Sep 9, 2015)

maomao said:


> Doesn't that only relate to the 'any employment related claim or any claim based on worker status' bit? Which is just a bit of a scarer clause anyway because if any court or tribunal did find the courier was legally an employee that clause would never stand up.


Even so, massive gamble to take - that it will be struck out by a tribunal. Especially as worker status is being challenged presently by e.g. uber drivers.


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## ChrisD (Sep 10, 2015)

thanks for replies ... busy today collecting for Calais.  Will PM later.


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## cesare (Sep 10, 2015)

maomao said:


> Doesn't that only relate to the 'any employment related claim or any claim based on worker status' bit? Which is just a bit of a scarer clause anyway because if any court or tribunal did find the courier was legally an employee that clause would never stand up.


It's a standard clause in a contract for services but it's probably enforceable as an indemnity.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Sep 10, 2015)

Often wondered about the current trend for self employment.

Whilst it is obvious that companies benefit from not employing people, (no sick/holiday pay/NI etc.), but you can't be self employed with just one customer, (unless you for a limited company, one of these can have just one customer). So how are so many companies getting away with it?


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## cesare (Sep 10, 2015)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Often wondered about the current trend for self employment.
> 
> Whilst it is obvious that companies benefit from not employing people, (no sick/holiday pay/NI etc.), but you can't be self employed with just one customer, (unless you for a limited company, one of these can have just one customer). So how are so many companies getting away with it?


You can be self employed with just one customer, but it's harder, granted. The HMRC look at it slightly differently from the Employment Tribunals but worker status (employed or self employed)  is being tested all the time. There are a number of factors but probably the most important one is "mutuality of obligation" which is an employers responsibility to provide work and a wage for it, and the employee's to personally carry out that work. This is why you'll usually find the right of substitution (sending someone else to carry out the work) in a contract for services - it reinforces the commercial rather than personal contract.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Sep 10, 2015)

cesare said:


> You can be self employed with just one customer, but it's harder, granted. The HMRC look at it slightly differently from the Employment Tribunals but worker status (employed or self employed)  is being tested all the time. There are a number of factors but probably the most important one is "mutuality of obligation" which is an employers responsibility to provide work and a wage for it, and the employee's to personally carry out that work. This is why you'll usually find the right of substitution (sending someone else to carry out the work) in a contract for services - it reinforces the commercial rather than personal contract.



Are you sure? HMRC are quite firm that a sole trader or LLP must have more than one customer or else they are an employee (would imagine there is no crossover between HMRC rules and employment law though, joined up shit doesn't seem to happen in he UK). If you are a company with just one customer you must be a limited company, with the extra hassles and costs involved in that.

eta I am self employed and technically only have one customer, so have had to go through this and form a Ltd Co.


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## cesare (Sep 10, 2015)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Are you sure? HMRC are quite firm that a sole trader or LLP must have more than one customer or else they are an employee (would imagine there is no crossover between HMRC rules and employment law though, joined up shit doesn't seem to happen in he UK). If you are a company with just one customer you must be a limited company, with the extra hassles and costs involved in that.
> 
> eta I am self employed and technically only have one customer, so have had to go through this and form a Ltd Co.



There are several factors but number of customers isn't the deciding one. Here's the guidance but it depends on the facts for each sole trader and how their business operates of course: Employment status - GOV.UK


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Sep 10, 2015)

cesare said:


> There are several factors but number of customers isn't the deciding one. Here's the guidance but it depends on the facts for each sole trader and how their business operates of course: Employment status - GOV.UK



Ah, think I'm getting confused between self employed and sole trader here.


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## Frazer (Oct 21, 2016)

Can a 15 year old in last year of school, work for Deliveroo?


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## Mr Smin (Oct 21, 2016)

The job can involve delivering booze. I'm doubting under 18s can do that. Can't find any solid info though.


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## ChrisD (Oct 24, 2016)

My son will be  18 this week.  He is still doing this work (between other jobs and A levels) which he has done since he was 16.  I understand that now they are not taking on under 18's.  Incidentally he is utilising  the new "contract" to cherry pick peak hours when he can earn £12 to £15 per hour... he does cycle very fast.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 24, 2016)

Saw one picking up a load of KFC yesterday. Who is too fucking lazy to go and get their own dirty-bird? He stood around for fucking ages too, the food will be pretty cold by the time it gets delivered.




What's the fucking world coming to?


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## campanula (Nov 4, 2016)

Yes, I always wondered about that - watching the 'food' bouncing around in a huge box while cyclist delivers to far regions of town - how can anything be remotely edible after that treatment (not to mention the grimness of most carry-outs anyway). Do people reheat it in an oven/microwave? Idle fuckers.


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## Celyn (Nov 4, 2016)

If the customer is in the "far regions of town" and lacks bicycle, car, bus service, ability to walk quickly, I think I can see why they might not trot along and fetch it themselves. 

Yeah, it's idle, but all sorts of shops would look very different if everyone was cooking everything from scratch every day.


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