# All tube station ticket offices to close in 2015



## mango5 (Nov 21, 2013)

Combined with a bit of 'good news' misdirection about 24 running at weekends,  it appears the rumours over the Summer are true.


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## 19sixtysix (Nov 21, 2013)

Later running tube at weekends will be bollox much of the time because weekends are needed for maintenance. It's been thrown in to say the unions are blocking advance.


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## Bungle73 (Nov 21, 2013)

This may be bad for LU staff, but does anyone actually need to use a ticket office at a Tube station any more?


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## Lord Camomile (Nov 21, 2013)

Bungle73 said:


> This may be bad for LU staff, but does anyone actually need to use a ticket office at a Tube station any more?


I have done a couple of times recently when I lost my Oyster.

Yes, a couple of times


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## Santino (Nov 21, 2013)

Bungle73 said:


> This may be bad for LU staff, but does anyone actually need to use a ticket office at a Tube station any more?


 Yes


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## Bungle73 (Nov 21, 2013)

Santino said:


> Yes


Well obviously they don't, otherwise TfL wouldn't be planning on closing them.


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## Crispy (Nov 21, 2013)

The idea is that employees will be moved out of the ticket office and given portable equipment that lets them to refunds etc.


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## quimcunx (Nov 21, 2013)

Bungle73 said:


> This may be bad for LU staff, but does anyone actually need to use a ticket office at a Tube station any more?



There are always people queuing at it when I go past and when I've  needed to use it.


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## Santino (Nov 21, 2013)

Bungle73 said:


> Well obviously they don't, otherwise TfL wouldn't be planning on closing them.


Obviously.


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## pinkmonkey (Nov 21, 2013)

this'll be great - imagine all those tourists in Kings Cross suddenly trying to fumble their way around the machines.


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## Santino (Nov 21, 2013)

Who's going to dish out Oyster cards?


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## mango5 (Nov 21, 2013)

Bungle73 said:


> Well obviously they don't, otherwise TfL wouldn't be planning on closing them.


Other explanations for this shitty decision exist.


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## Bungle73 (Nov 21, 2013)

pinkmonkey said:


> this'll be great - imagine all those tourists in Kings Cross suddenly trying to fumble their way around the machines.


Six major central London stations will have "special customer points to help tourists".  Presumably King's Cross St. Pancras will be one of those.


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## Crispy (Nov 21, 2013)

pinkmonkey said:


> this'll be great - imagine all those tourists in Kings Cross suddenly trying to fumble their way around the machines.


The big tourist stations will have special information centers. The busy central stations will have more staff, but moved into the circulation area rather than the ticket offices. The job cuts will be in the outer stations. From the press release:



> From 2015, LU proposes to operate stations in four different categories:
> 
> Gateway stations – the main visitor entry points to London, with a high proportion of people unfamiliar with the Tube network. These stations – Euston, Heathrow Terminals 123, King’s Cross St. Pancras, Liverpool Street, Paddington and Victoria – will all have enhanced and redeveloped Visitor Information Centres to ensure tourists and visitors are welcomed and offered the best possible service. Customers will be able to purchase Oyster cards, pick up maps and other information such as interchange information on other TfL transport modes, like bus services or Barclays Cycle Hire. There will be 30 per cent more staff in ticket halls than today, and an increase in overall ticket selling capacity of 33 per cent.
> 
> ...





mango5 said:


> Other explanations for this shitty decision exist.



Massive budget cuts from central govt.


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## 19sixtysix (Nov 21, 2013)

Where does the money go 
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/g...ves-and-staff-boris-johnson-told-8949085.html


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## Bungle73 (Nov 21, 2013)




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## Crispy (Nov 21, 2013)

19sixtysix said:


> Later running tube at weekends will be bollox much of the time because weekends are needed for maintenance. It's been thrown in to say the unions are blocking advance.


They're only proposing it on the bits of the deep tube that have just had lots of money spent on track renewal. It should be doable.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 21, 2013)

Bungle73 said:


> Well obviously they don't, otherwise TfL wouldn't be planning on closing them.


yes because everything tfl does is based on making people's lives easier and safer and their journeys quicker


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## SpookyFrank (Nov 21, 2013)

Bungle73 said:


> but does anyone actually need to use a ticket office at a Tube station any more?



I know Londoners struggle with this idea, but not everyone in the world lives in London. You already get a pretty shitty experience as a visitor to London on public transport, attempting to buy a ticket on a London bus you'd think you'd just walked into a maternity ward and asked to buy a dozen babies.


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## littlebabyjesus (Nov 21, 2013)

Crispy said:


> Massive budget cuts from central govt.


TFL is barely subsidised by central govt, though. London's transport system more or less pays for itself. Fares account for 80% of income, then there are lots of little bits such as advertising revenue and con charge, then there's a subsidy for concessions, which presumably comes from govt, but that's only 6%.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 21, 2013)

SpookyFrank said:


> I know Londoners struggle with this idea, but not everyone in the world lives in London. You already get a pretty shitty experience as a visitor to London on public transport, attempting to buy a ticket on a London bus you'd think you'd just walked into a maternity ward and asked to buy a dozen babies.


walked into a cycle shop and asked for an hgv


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## Pickman's model (Nov 21, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> TFL is barely subsidised by central govt, though. London's transport system more or less pays for itself. Fares account for 80% of income, then there are lots of little bits such as advertising revenue and con charge, then there's a subsidy for concessions, which presumably comes from govt, but that's only 6%.


i think some concessions e.g. freedom passes come from local authorities.


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## Bungle73 (Nov 21, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> yes because everything tfl does is based on making people's lives easier and safer and their journeys quicker


Tell me why someone needs to use a ticket office?  And the example given earlier doesn't count as it's already been pointed out how they will/could work.


SpookyFrank said:


> I know Londoners struggle with this idea, but not everyone in the world lives in London. You already get a pretty shitty experience as a visitor to London on public transport, attempting to buy a ticket on a London bus you'd think you'd just walked into a maternity ward and asked to buy a dozen babies.


For your information, I don't live in London (any more), but I do visit regularly. Visitors should either be using Oyster or a paper Travelcard.  Paying the cash fare for Tube or buses is the most expensive way to do things.


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## TruXta (Nov 21, 2013)

Anyone who's travelled through Victoria, Paddington, Waterloo, King's X or Euston in the last decade should realise there is a need for a ticket office to help out out-of-town people who need to get to grips with the vagaries of TfL.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 21, 2013)

Bungle73 said:


> Tell me why someone needs to use a ticket office?  And the example given earlier doesn't count as it's already been pointed out how they will/could work.


i want to get a six month zones 1-4 travelcard

i want to hand in an oyster card and get the deposit back


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## mango5 (Nov 21, 2013)

SpookyFrank said:


> I know Londoners struggle with this idea, but not everyone in the world lives in London. You already get a pretty shitty experience as a visitor to London on public transport, attempting to buy a ticket on a London bus you'd think you'd just walked into a maternity ward and asked to buy a dozen babies.


One of the huge consequences of this decision will be an even unfriendlier experience for visitors to London.  No cash on buses and nowhere obvious to buy tickets at tube stations.  International destination my arse.


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## SpookyFrank (Nov 21, 2013)

Bungle73 said:


> For your information, I don't live in London (any more), but I do visit regularly. Visitors should either be using Oyster or a paper Travelcard.  Paying the cash fare for Tube or buses is the most expensive way to do things.



But you might not know that if you're a visitor. You might need to talk to some friendly person in, say, a ticket office at a tube station to glean such insights.


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## TruXta (Nov 21, 2013)

Bungle73 said:


> For your information, I don't live in London (any more), but I do visit regularly. Visitors should either be using Oyster or a paper Travelcard.  Paying the cash fare for Tube or buses is the most expensive way to do things.



You do realise not everyone is so obsessed with transportation as you are? Also, that many visitors to London don't speak or read English, nor do they necessarily have the resources to comprehensively research how everything works?


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## Bungle73 (Nov 21, 2013)

TruXta said:


> Anyone who's travelled through Victoria, Paddington, Waterloo, King's X or Euston in the last decade should realise there is a need for a ticket office to help out out-of-town people who need to get to grips with the vagaries of TfL.


There going to gave customer points to help at selected stations, like I already said.  And there will be staff in the station, instead of being locked away in the ticket office.


Pickman's model said:


> i want to get a six month zones 1-4 travelcard


Sooooooo........you really think TfL is going to leave travellers with no means to purchase period tickets? 



> i want to hand in an oyster card and get the deposit back


You deal with the staff member on duty - simples!


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## TruXta (Nov 21, 2013)

Bungle73 said:


> There going to gave customer points to help at selected stations, like I already said.  And there will be staff in the station, instead of being locked away in the ticket office.
> 
> Sooooooo........you really think TfL is going to leave travellers with no means to purchase period tickets?
> 
> ...


Customer points eh - what, some unlucky TfL staff member that no longer has an office or a chair to sit in. That'll be a real helpful change.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 21, 2013)

Bungle73 said:


> You deal with the staff member on duty - simples!


you've not been to e.g. west finchley recently


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## skyscraper101 (Nov 21, 2013)

Santino said:


> Who's going to dish out Oyster cards?



Machines


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## skyscraper101 (Nov 21, 2013)

Seriously though... who didn't see this coming?

Like self-service checkouts. We're fast tracking to the cashless, least-interactive, least-staffed option. I'm amazed petrol stations in this country still don't get like the US and just let you pay with your card at the pump.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 21, 2013)

Santino said:


> Who's going to dish out Oyster cards?


they're being phased out


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## Santino (Nov 21, 2013)

skyscraper101 said:


> I'm amazed petrol stations in this country still don't get like the US and just let you pay with your card at the pump.


 They do.


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## SpookyFrank (Nov 21, 2013)

Bungle73 said:


> Sooooooo........you really think TfL is going to leave travellers with no means to purchase period tickets?



I think there'll be a vending machine where you can buy tickets. And in front of the vending machine, a massive queue of people waiting for a very puzzled international traveller who can't figure out how to work the vending machine and can't find anyone to ask because the staff have all been replaced by a vending machine.


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## Bungle73 (Nov 21, 2013)

SpookyFrank said:


> But you might not know that if you're a visitor. You might need to talk to some friendly person in, say, a ticket office at a tube station to glean such insights.


There are going to be staff in the stations, just like I said before.


TruXta said:


> You do realise not everyone is so obsessed with transportation as you are? Also, that many visitors to London don't speak or read English, nor do they necessarily have the resources to comprehensively research how everything works?


Why would someone go to country and not find out how the transport network works first?  You don't need to "obsessed". Would you go on holiday someone and not do anything to know how their system works?


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## skyscraper101 (Nov 21, 2013)

19sixtysix said:


> Later running tube at weekends will be bollox much of the time because weekends are needed for maintenance. It's been thrown in to say the unions are blocking advance.



According to LBC it's happening  but only on five lines and trains less less regularly.

http://www.lbc.co.uk/tube-to-run-24-hours-at-weekends-81674



> starting in 2015, five lines - the Piccadilly, Jubilee, Victoria, Northern and Central Lines - will run around the clock.This means that the Tube will not stop running from Friday morning until Sunday night, although services will not be as regular during the night as in daytime.


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## TruXta (Nov 21, 2013)

Bungle73 said:


> There are going to be staff in the stations, just like I said before.
> 
> Why would someone go to country and not find out how the transport network works first?  You don't need to "obsessed". Would you go on holiday someone and not do anything to know how their system works?


Are you serious? Fucking hell. People are different from you, think differently from you, have other goals and means of achieving them (or not). Is that really so hard to understand?


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## Bungle73 (Nov 21, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> you've not been to e.g. west finchley recently





SpookyFrank said:


> I think there'll be a vending machine where you can buy tickets. And in front of the vending machine, a massive queue of people waiting for a very puzzled international traveller who can't figure out how to work the vending machine and can't find anyone to ask because the staff have all been replaced by a vending machine.


Oh FfS.

*THERE WILL BE STAFF IN THE STATION INSTEAD OF IN THE TICKET OFFICE!!!!!!!*

Why is this so difficult a concept to grasp???


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## Bungle73 (Nov 21, 2013)

TruXta said:


> Are you serious? Fucking hell.


Am I serious?  Are YOU serious? So when you go on holiday you do no research what so ever, and expect everything to work like it works back home do you?


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## SpookyFrank (Nov 21, 2013)

Bungle73 said:


> Would you go on holiday someone and not do anything to know how their system works?



Yes. Just like probably everybody else does. I never had any trouble getting around in France, Italy, Germany etc despite my limited command of the relevant langauges. Even as an English speaking person, the worst city I've been to in Europe in terms of accessible public transport is London.

e2a: And we're talking worst by a country mile. Even Paris is a joy by comparison.


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## littlebabyjesus (Nov 21, 2013)

Bungle73 said:


> Why would someone go to country and not find out how the transport network works first?  You don't need to "obsessed". Would you go on holiday someone and not do anything to know how their system works?


Out of general crapness. 

I do. I blunder in and assume unthinkingly that I'll be able to work it out when I get there.


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## TruXta (Nov 21, 2013)

Bungle73 said:


> Am I serious?  Are YOU serious? So when you go on holiday you do no research what so ever, and expect everything to work like it works back home do you?



Everyone isn't like you or me, Bungle. Have a think for god's sake.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 21, 2013)

Bungle73 said:


> Why would someone go to country and not find out how the transport network works first?  You don't need to "obsessed". Would you go on holiday someone and not do anything to know how their system works?


why not? when you go abroad there are people in the ticket offices you can speak to who will help you.


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## Crispy (Nov 21, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> TFL is barely subsidised by central govt, though. London's transport system more or less pays for itself. Fares account for 80% of income, then there are lots of little bits such as advertising revenue and con charge, then there's a subsidy for concessions, which presumably comes from govt, but that's only 6%.



Here's the 2013/14 budget: http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/corporate/2013-14-budget-tfl-march-2013.pdf

Operating budget is £5.9b, of which £4.7b is fares/rent/advertising income - your 80% figure. However, there's also debt servicing of £.3b and capital expenditure of £1.7b (There's crossrail too, but that has a unique funding method of local taxes and business contributions.

All told, TfL are funded by £3b of grants, £1.7 of which is from central govt. This is being cut by 12.5%: http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/c27d6bd6-de7e-11e2-9b47-00144feab7de.html#axzz2lHay4fUT

So this is part cost cutting and part reorganisation of a customer service method that makes less and less sense with the wide adoption of Oyster.


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## Bungle73 (Nov 21, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> why not? when you go abroad there are people in the ticket offices you can speak to who will help you.


THERE



WIL


BE



STAFF


IN



THE



SATIONS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!




HOW MANY MORE FUCKING TIME???????????


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## skyscraper101 (Nov 21, 2013)

skyscraper101 said:


> Seriously though... who didn't see this coming?
> 
> Like self-service checkouts. We're fast tracking to the cashless, least-interactive, least-staffed option. I'm amazed petrol stations in this country still don't get like the US and just let you pay with your card at the pump.



Haven't seen any myself. It must be a recent introduction but its been standard in the US for years. I've only ever gone in the station like once since I moved there.


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## SpookyFrank (Nov 21, 2013)

Bungle73 said:


> Oh FfS.
> 
> *THERE WILL BE STAFF IN THE STATION INSTEAD OF IN THE TICKET OFFICE!!!!!!!*
> 
> Why is this so difficult a concept to grasp???



If they're keeping the staff, why close the ticket offices? I call bullshit.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 21, 2013)

Bungle73 said:


> THERE
> 
> 
> 
> ...


then


w
h
y



aren't there now?


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## Bungle73 (Nov 21, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> then
> 
> 
> w
> ...


Because they are in the ticket office................................


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## Pickman's model (Nov 21, 2013)

Bungle73 said:


> Because they are in the ticket office................................


go to west finchley of an evening and you will be confronted with a closed ticket office and no staff about.


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## skyscraper101 (Nov 21, 2013)

You can never hear the staff behind those windows anyway. I'd much prefer proper face to face out in the station if I needed to speak with someone.


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## cesare (Nov 21, 2013)

If they're taking the staff out of the ticket office and putting them in the main part of the station instead - what's the benefit and where's the saving?


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## littlebabyjesus (Nov 21, 2013)

Crispy said:


> Here's the 2013/14 budget: http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/corporate/2013-14-budget-tfl-march-2013.pdf
> 
> Operating budget is £5.9b, of which £4.7b is fares/rent/advertising income - your 80% figure. However, there's also debt servicing of £.3b and capital expenditure of £1.7b (There's crossrail too, but that has a unique funding method of local taxes and business contributions.
> 
> ...


Ok, ta. I'd missed that big chunk of expenditure. So day-to-day operations pay for themselves, pretty much, but investment in improvements needs govt grants.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 21, 2013)

Bungle73 said:


> THERE
> 
> 
> 
> ...


btw posting like this ^ makes you look like a loon


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## Bungle73 (Nov 21, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> btw posting like this ^ makes you look like a loon


Continuously posting how are people going to do X when there's no one there, when I have pointed out about a million times that the staff who would have been in the ticket office will now be in the station makes  YOU look like a loon.


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## skyscraper101 (Nov 21, 2013)

cesare said:


> If they're taking the staff out of the ticket office and putting them in the main part of the station instead - what's the benefit and where's the saving?



They can get rid of the feckless ones who will only work if they can sit down


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## Crispy (Nov 21, 2013)

cesare said:


> If they're taking the staff out of the ticket office and putting them in the main part of the station instead - what's the benefit and where's the saving?


If a station currently has, say, one staff in the office, and two on the gateline, they'll just give ticket duties to one of the gateline staff (or move the ticket staff out to the gateline and move a gateline person somewhere else). "No non-voluntary redundancies" they're saying, but that probably means "well you can carry on working for tfl, but we're moving you to a lower-paying job".


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## Pickman's model (Nov 21, 2013)

Bungle73 said:


> Continuously posting how are people going to do X when there's no one there, when I have pointed out about a million times that the staff who would have been in the ticket office will now be in the station makes  YOU look like a loon.


but there are no staff there now in the evening. yet you say there will be in the future. you will, i am sure, forgive me for doubting you.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Nov 21, 2013)

skyscraper101 said:


> Haven't seen any myself. It must be a recent introduction but its been standard in the US for years. I've only ever gone in the station like once since I moved there.


 
Tesco have been doing this for years.


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## cesare (Nov 21, 2013)

skyscraper101 said:


> They can get rid of the feckless ones who will only work if they can sit down


Massive savings to made in chair removal then


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Nov 21, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> why not? when you go abroad there are people in the ticket offices you can speak to who will help you.


 
yes, in most stations in Paris the ticket office bod speaks English. I'm sure the ticket office bods on LU also speak many languages too.


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## skyscraper101 (Nov 21, 2013)

cesare said:


> Massive savings to made in chair removal then



Think of all the real estate freed up by having no ticket office. They could install a costa, or a foxtons.


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## cesare (Nov 21, 2013)

Crispy said:


> If a station currently has, say, one staff in the office, and two on the gateline, they'll just give ticket duties to one of the gateline staff (or move the ticket staff out to the gateline and move a gateline person somewhere else). "No non-voluntary redundancies" they're saying, but that probably means "well you can carry on working for tfl, but we're moving you to a lower-paying job".


So staffing numbers will go down by voluntary redundancy and natural wastage?


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## Bungle73 (Nov 21, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> but there are no staff there now in the evening. yet you say there will be in the future. you will, i am sure, forgive me for doubting you.


It's not staffed because TfL decided it doesn't need staff in the evening.  90% of people using that station will coming out rather than going in anyway.

All the central London stations - the ones tourist use most - are staffed in the evening ime.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 21, 2013)

Bungle73 said:


> It's not staffed because TfL decided it doesn't need staff in the evening.  90% of people using the station will coming out rather than going in anyway.
> 
> All the central London stations - the ones tourist use most - are staffed in the evening ime.


yes. i know this. but you seem to ignore it.


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## Bungle73 (Nov 21, 2013)

Oh, and WF probably is staffed, but they are in the office somewhere.



Pickman's model said:


> yes. i know this. but Bungle73 seems to ignore it.


Um, what?


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## Crispy (Nov 21, 2013)

cesare said:


> So staffing numbers will go down by voluntary redundancy and natural wastage?


That's what they say.


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## littlebabyjesus (Nov 21, 2013)

cesare said:


> So staffing numbers will go down by voluntary redundancy and natural wastage?


I love the way places say that as if it made it ok, as if there were not another generation coming up behind that needs work.


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## Bungle73 (Nov 21, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> yes. i know this. but you seem to ignore it.


Ignore what?


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## Pickman's model (Nov 21, 2013)

Bungle73 said:


> Oh, and WF probably is staffed, but they are in the office somewhere.
> 
> 
> Um, what?


um i misread your name as bahnhof strasse, who had just replied to me above. is that ok?


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## Pickman's model (Nov 21, 2013)

Bungle73 said:


> Ignore what?


that there are no staff dealing with the public on the station in the evening now so if you want to use facilities for which you need a ticket office you're fucked. i see no reason for this to improve in future


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## cesare (Nov 21, 2013)

Crispy said:


> That's what they say.


Have they predicted when the staffing numbers will go down, factoring in VR and labour turnover?


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## Crispy (Nov 21, 2013)

cesare said:


> Have they predicted when the staffing numbers will go down, factoring in VR and labour turnover?


I can't answer that question


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## littlebabyjesus (Nov 21, 2013)

If there are no staff around, they leave the barriers open. But you still need to know how things work to know that that means it's ok to walk through and sort things out at the other end.


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## cesare (Nov 21, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I love the way places say that as if it made it ok, as if there were not another generation coming up behind that needs work.


It would be interesting to establish if the amount of work will stay the same (even if different in content) but that they want fewer staff to carry it out.


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## Crispy (Nov 21, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> that there are no staff dealing with the public on the station in the evening now so if you want to use facilities for which you need a ticket office you're fucked. i see no reason for this to improve in future


Is there a staff member at the gateline or in the ticket hall at all in the evening?


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## Pickman's model (Nov 21, 2013)

Crispy said:


> Is there a staff member at the gateline or in the ticket hall at all in the evening?


no


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## Bungle73 (Nov 21, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> that there are no staff dealing with the public on the station in the evening now so if you want to use facilities for which you need a ticket office you're fucked. i see no reason for this to improve in future


But what does that have to do with the proposal which this thread is about - moving staff from ticket offices into stations?  The number of people turning up at WF in the evening who don't know what they are doing is probably zero.


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## cesare (Nov 21, 2013)

Crispy said:


> I can't answer that question


Sorry, I thought it might be in some report that I haven't bothered to read


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## Pickman's model (Nov 21, 2013)

Bungle73 said:


> But what does that have to do with the proposal which this thread is about - moving staff from ticket offices into stations?  The number of people turning up at WF in the evening who don't know what they are doing is probably zero.


one factor you've not considered is the presence of staff making people feel safer on the station, and their absence making people feel less safe. and probably zero is not definitely zero. it's shite.


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## neonwilderness (Nov 21, 2013)

Can you buy tube tickets from TheTrainLine?


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Nov 21, 2013)

Anyway...

All this is Boris and Tfl picking a fight with the unions, no?


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## Bungle73 (Nov 21, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> one factor you've not considered is the presence of staff making people feel safer on the station, and their absence making people feel less safe.


Why are you obsessed with WF?  This proposal is about stations where staff are currently hidden away inside a ticket office.  These staff will now be re-deployed to be in the station so passengers can interact them face to face, and they will be a presence on the station.  Is that not better (for passengers at least)?


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## magneze (Nov 21, 2013)

750 job cuts is just at TfL. Taxi & minicab firms are going to really suffer too.


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## bi0boy (Nov 21, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I love the way places say that as if it made it ok, as if there were not another generation coming up behind that needs work.



Eh? Are you suggesting they don't cut staff simply because "people need work"?

Maybe they should employ people to build folly towers like the regency gentry did in order provide much-needed employment for the locals?


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## littlebabyjesus (Nov 21, 2013)

bi0boy said:


> Eh? Are you suggesting they don't cut staff simply because "people need work"?
> 
> Maybe they should employ people to build folly towers like the regency gentry did in order provide much-needed employment for the locals?


No I'm not. But I am saying that just because nobody is being made forcibly redundant, that doesn't change the number of jobs being lost.

I can see the potential sense in making some changes to staffing, but any money saved through those changes could be ploughed back into the system to improve it. That's precisely what they are not going to do with it.


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## pinkmonkey (Nov 21, 2013)

mango5 said:


> One of the huge consequences of this decision will be an even unfriendlier experience for visitors to London.  No cash on buses and nowhere obvious to buy tickets at tube stations.  International destination my arse.


and a fucking rip-off to boot. Already costs me around £7 to go into town so I try not to do so.  I go to Milan and it's about 1.20 euros to go anywhere on the metro.


----------



## beareis (Nov 21, 2013)

Shit sandwich.


----------



## Bungle73 (Nov 21, 2013)

mango5 said:


> One of the huge consequences of this decision will be an even unfriendlier experience for visitors to London.  No cash on buses and nowhere obvious to buy tickets at tube stations.  International destination my arse.



No where "obvious" to buy tickets? What?  There are ticket machines, you can't miss them..............



pinkmonkey said:


> and a fucking rip-off to boot. Already costs me around £7 to go into town so I try not to do so.  I go to Milan and it's about 1.20 euros to go anywhere on the metro.


Travelcards are great value.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 21, 2013)

Bungle73 said:


> Why are you obsessed with WF?  This proposal is about stations where staff are currently hidden away inside a ticket office.  These staff will now be re-deployed to be in the station so passengers can interact them face to face, and they will be a presence on the station.  Is that not better (for passengers at least)?


you're not used to examples, are you.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 21, 2013)

Bungle73 said:


> Travelcards are great value.


you are boris johnson and i claim my £5


----------



## Bungle73 (Nov 21, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> you're not used to examples, are you.


What does how things are done at WF have to do with what this thread is about?  Nothing.


----------



## Bungle73 (Nov 21, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> you are boris johnson and i claim my £5


An 6 Zone Travelcard gives unlimited travel on ALL public transport inside London for £8.90 for a day.  How is that not great value?


----------



## pinkmonkey (Nov 21, 2013)

I don't call £7 for a return journey into town great value.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 21, 2013)

Bungle73 said:


> What does how things are done at WF have to do with what this thread is about?  Nothing.


you're saying things will be fine in the outer stations. i am not so confident you are right. it matters to me as i use outer stations on a regular basis. maybe you don't. but i am persuaded that things will in fact be worse after 2015 than they are now, and they're not that good now.


----------



## pinkmonkey (Nov 21, 2013)

Bungle73 said:


> An 6 Zone Travelcard gives unlimited travel on ALL public transport inside London for £8.90 for a day.  How is that not great value?


The same journey would cost about 3 euros in Milan.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 21, 2013)

Bungle73 said:


> An 6 Zone Travelcard gives unlimited travel on ALL public transport inside London for £8.90 for a day.  How is that not great value?


for many years the price of travel in london has gone up beyond inflation, meaning that the value for money has steadily decreased.


----------



## Bungle73 (Nov 21, 2013)

pinkmonkey said:


> I don't call £7 for a return journey into town great value.


£7 from where?


Pickman's model said:


> you're saying things will be fine in the outer stations. i am not so confident you are right. it matters to me as i use outer stations on a regular basis. maybe you don't. but i am persuaded that things will in fact be worse after 2015 than they are now, and they're not that good now.


I have no idea what you are talking about tbh. This proposal is about moving staff that are currently in ticket offices into the station itself.  What happens at stations like WF doesn't come into it as those are not the stations being talked about.


pinkmonkey said:


> The same journey would cost about 3 euros in Milan.


Um, for 3 Euros you get unlimited travel on buses, trains, metro and trams (do they have trams)?  And London is a hell of a lot bigger than Milan.


----------



## Lazy Llama (Nov 21, 2013)

> "The first and most important point to make is that no ticket offices will be closed, alright? They're not going to be closed... The answer to the number of ticket office closures is: nil." - Boris Johnson to the London Assembly, March 2010.


With a U turn like that he must be considering standing for the LibDems at the next election.


----------



## Bungle73 (Nov 21, 2013)

Oh, and I just had look at the Milan Metro map, it's nowhere near as extensive as the LU.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 21, 2013)

Bungle73 said:


> Oh, and I just had look at the Milan Metro map, it's nowhere near as extensive as the LU.


how about paris, how much is a day card in paris?


----------



## Bungle73 (Nov 21, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> how about paris, how much is a day card in paris?


Why don't you tell me, and unless if offers exactly the same as a London Travelcard then it doesn't count.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 21, 2013)

Bungle73 said:


> Why don't you tell me, and unless if offers exactly the same as a London Travelcard then it doesn't count.


Not true. What needs to be compared is similar needs being fulfilled - generally, getting from A to B in the morning, then back to A in the evening. What is being offered is beside the point - 'you could have been travelling around all day, making 10 journeys', 'but that's not what I wanted to do'.


----------



## pinkmonkey (Nov 21, 2013)

Bungle73 said:


> £7 from where?
> 
> I have no idea what you are talking about tbh. This proposal is about moving staff that are currently in ticket offices into the station itself.  What happens at stations like WF doesn't come into it as those are not the stations being talked about.
> 
> Um, for 3 Euros you get unlimited travel on buses, trains, metro and trams (do they have trams)?  And London is a hell of a lot bigger than Milan.


For comparison purposes, I'm talking about the journey to Rho - it takes about an hour. It's similar distance to going to Zone 6.  Everywhere else in Europe is way cheaper. Also stuff like airport transfers - 9 euros for milan to Malpensa (takes about an hour on the train), how much is it to get to Gatwick?


----------



## TruXta (Nov 21, 2013)

Barring very high-cost countries like NO/DK/SE and Switzerland London is easily the most expensive for public transport.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 21, 2013)

TruXta said:


> Barring very high-cost countries like NO/DK/SE and Switzerland London is easily the most expensive for public transport.


And also barring other British towns/cities, tbf.


----------



## TruXta (Nov 21, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> And also barring other British towns/cities, tbf.


Is that so? Any handy stats on that?


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 21, 2013)

pinkmonkey said:


> For comparison purposes, I'm talking about the journey to Rho - it takes about an hour. It's similar distance to going to Zone 6.  Everywhere else in Europe is way cheaper. Also stuff like airport transfers - 9 euros for milan to Malpensa (takes about an hour on the train), how much is it to get to Gatwick?


i'll take a pound of flesh


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 21, 2013)

TruXta said:


> Is that so? Any handy stats on that?


no, just personal experience with a few different bus services. London's buses are about the cheapest in the country, believe it or not as long as you use an Oyster card.


----------



## TruXta (Nov 21, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> no, just personal experience with a few different bus services. London's buses are about the cheapest in the country, believe it or not as long as you use an Oyster card.


Buses aren't too bad - it's the tubes and trains that'll kill you.


----------



## Bungle73 (Nov 21, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Not true. What needs to be compared is similar needs being fulfilled - generally, getting from A to B in the morning, then back to A in the evening. What is being offered is beside the point - 'you could have been travelling around all day, making 10 journeys', 'but that's not what I wanted to do'.


What do you mean "not true"? We were talking about Travelcards.  You cannot go comparing X ticket in some other country and say "Oh that's cheaper" when it doesn't offer anywhere near the same kind if deal a Travelcard offers.  It's an invalid comparison.



pinkmonkey said:


> For comparison purposes, I'm talking about the journey to Rho - it takes about an hour. It's similar distance to going to Zone 6.  Everywhere else in Europe is way cheaper. Also stuff like airport transfers - 9 euros for milan to Malpensa (takes about an hour on the train), how much is it to get to Gatwick?


It's £10, cheapest fare. If you have a railcard it's even less.

Everywhere in Europe is "cheaper"?  Is it though. Apparently we're not allowed to take account of the countries where it isn't because they don't count for some reason.

TBH this "everywhere in Europe is so much better than us" bollocks that constantly comes up is very tiresome.  Everything is not better in Europe. Not at all.

And another thing, one minute you're complaining about staff numbers being cut, and the next you're moaning about the price of fares. You can't have it both ways.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 21, 2013)

Bungle73 said:


> You can't have it both ways.


yes you can


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 21, 2013)

Bungle73 said:


> What do you mean "not true"? We were talking about Travelcards.  You cannot go comparing X ticket in some other country and say "Oh that's cheaper" when it doesn't offer anywhere near the same kind if deal a Travelcard offers.  It's an invalid comparison.


You have missed my point. How many people want travelcards and how many just want to make a simple return journey? Comparing the cost of tickets isn't the real measure - comparing the cost of journeys is the measure: the journeys real people actually make, not the theoretical journeys someone could theoretically make using a travelcard.

Oh and _you_ were talking about travelcards. Others were talking about journeys.


----------



## Bungle73 (Nov 21, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> yes you can


Um, no you can't.  If the fares are too cheap where is the money going to come from to pay the staff?  Sometimes I don't think some of you live in the real world, where real problems have to be addressed and you can't just magic the money to do stuff out of thin air!


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 21, 2013)

Bungle73 said:


> Um, no you can't.  If the fares are too cheap where is the money going to come from to pay the staff?  Sometimes I don't think some of you live in the real world, where real problems have to be addressed and you can't just magic the money to do stuff out of thing air!


year on year the increase in fares has been justified by capital investment, yet the service is frequently abysmal. this isn't the fault of the staff, but i haven't noticed anyone saying that a decline in the establishment is going to result in a reduction in fares.


----------



## Bungle73 (Nov 21, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> You have missed my point. How many people want travelcards and how many just want to make a simple return journey? Comparing the cost of tickets isn't the real measure - comparing the cost of journeys is the measure: the journeys real people actually make, not the theoretical journeys someone could theoretically make using a travelcard.
> 
> Oh and _you_ were talking about travelcards. Others were talking about journeys.


Start comparing like with like then get back to me.


Pickman's model said:


> year on year the increase in fares has been justified by capital investment, yet the service is frequently abysmal. this isn't the fault of the staff, but i haven't noticed anyone saying that a decline in the establishment is going to result in a reduction in fares.


Frequently "abysmal"?  Um no it's not. It runs pretty well considering how extensive the LU is, how many trains it runs every day and how many people use it. If you think a major transport infrastructure like the LU is going to be able to run with no problems what so ever you are living in dream land.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 21, 2013)

Bungle73 said:


> Start comparing like with like then get back to me.


Ok, let us look at New York.  

Standard walk-up fare: US$2.50, and that's to go anywhere on the Subway, including all the way to the airport. 

Weekly travelcard for the whole system metro/bus: US$30.

linky


----------



## skyscraper101 (Nov 21, 2013)

^cheaper and runs 24 hours.


----------



## Bungle73 (Nov 21, 2013)

skyscraper101 said:


> ^cheaper and runs 24 hours.


So when do they maintenance?  The main reason the Tube doesn't run 24 is because over night it is the only time they can do routine maintenance.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 21, 2013)

Bungle73 said:


> Frequently "abysmal"?  Um no it's not. It runs pretty well considering how extensive the LU is, how many trains it runs every day and how many people use it. If you think a major transport infrastructure like the LU is going to be able to run with no problems what so ever you are living in dream land.
> 
> And there has been investment.  Plenty of it.


yes, i know there's been plenty of investment. but nonetheless there's always a price hike for 'investment'.


----------



## TruXta (Nov 21, 2013)

Bungle73 said:


> So when do they maintenance?  The main reason the Tube doesn't run 24 is because over night it is the only time they can do routine maintenance.


IIRC they have double tracks each way so don't need to shut everything down for maintenance.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 21, 2013)

New York isn't exactly a cheap place. And neither is Tokyo, one of the most expensive places on the planet, no? One-day travelcard for the whole transport system: 700 yen, about four quid. linky

So London is significantly more expensive than Tokyo, a notoriously expensive place. 

Anywhere else you'd like to try?


----------



## skyscraper101 (Nov 21, 2013)

TruXta said:


> IIRC they have double tracks each way so don't need to shut everything down for maintenance.



This.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 21, 2013)

TruXta said:


> IIRC they have double tracks each way so don't need to shut everything down for maintenance.


tbf NY is 24-hour, but the night service is drastically reduced - not so unlike London's night buses. (And London's night buses are way better now than they were 20 years ago.)


----------



## Bungle73 (Nov 21, 2013)

TruXta said:


> IIRC they have double tracks each way so don't need to shut everything down for maintenance.





skyscraper101 said:


> This.


Wrong.



> Though the subway system operates on a 24-hour basis, some of the designated routes do not run, run as a shorter route or run with a different stopping pattern during late night hours. In addition to these regularly scheduled changes, because there is no nightly system shutdown for maintenance, tracks and stations must be maintained while the system is operating. To accommodate such work, services are usually changed during midday, overnight hours, and weekends.[26]



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_City_Subway

So the NYS does not magically carry out maintenance without any of the system being affected.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Nov 21, 2013)

New York's public transport is run on socialist principles, London's is not.


----------



## Bungle73 (Nov 21, 2013)

> *FASTRACK*
> In 2012, the MTA introduced a new maintenance program, FASTRACK, to speed up repair work. This program involves a more drastic approach than previous construction, and shuts down an entire trunk line in Manhattan for four consecutive weeknights.[85] According to the MTA, this new program proved much more efficient and quick than regular service changes, especially because it happened at night and not the weekend, when most transit closures had occurred before.[86]


----------



## TruXta (Nov 21, 2013)

Bungle73 said:


> So the NYS does not magically carry out maintenance without any of the system being affected.



Which no one said, you dick.


----------



## Bungle73 (Nov 21, 2013)

TruXta said:


> Which no one said, you dick.


Um, yes they did.  It was said that they don't need to shut down for the system for maintenance because the NYS has quadruple track (which is actually used to run express services). You dick.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 21, 2013)

Here is your challenge, Bungle. Find us a major city of comparable size to London with a public transport system that is more expensive than London's. (As expensive will do, tbf.)

I've found you another. Singapore. between 50p and £1.30 per journey with an Oyster-type thing. £4 per day for an unlimited travelcard. linky

btw, NYC I chose because I knew it was cheap. Tokyo and Singapore I chose just as two random places that popped into my head. I'm not cherry-picking.


----------



## skyscraper101 (Nov 21, 2013)

Bungle73 said:


> Um, yes they did.  It was said that they don't need to shut down for the system for maintenance because the NYS has quadruple track (which is actually used to run express services). You dick.



Don't need to shut *everything* down was the words used.


----------



## Bungle73 (Nov 21, 2013)

Fares are set at the price they need to be.  Maybe in your dream worlds one can run a network like the LU on a pittance, but in the real world you cannot have cheap fares unless something else gives.  I am willing to bet that everyone of those places with "cheaper" fares, cheaper fares is only half the story.  The money must be coming from somewhere else, probably the tax payer.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 21, 2013)

Bungle73 said:


> Fares are set at the price they need to be.  Maybe in your dream worlds one can run a network like the LU on a pittance, but in the real world you cannot have cheap fares unless something else gives.  I am willing to bet that everyone of those places with "cheaper" fares, cheaper fares is only half the story.  The money must be coming from somewhere else, probably the tax payer.


it may have escaped your attention but everyone pays tax. and we don't get a choice in what it's spent on. given the choice, i wouldn't be surprised if people decided they didn't want e.g. nuclear weapons and would prefer that money to subsidise fares.


----------



## Bungle73 (Nov 21, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> it may have escaped your attention but everyone pays tax.


And?


----------



## skyscraper101 (Nov 21, 2013)

TBF, I prefer the London tube to any other I've used around the world. It's generally a lot cleaner, brighter and safer to NY or Paris. 

I'd sooner forego ticket offices if it meant being able to get a tube at between 1am-5am. I'd use that much more.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 21, 2013)

Bungle73 said:


> And?


and what?


----------



## Bungle73 (Nov 21, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> and what?


I don't see what everyone being a tax payer has to do with what I said.  In fact in only enforces it: one way or another, whether through taxes or fares, you will end up  paying what it costs.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 21, 2013)

Bungle73 said:


> Fares are set at the price they need to be.  Maybe in your dream worlds one can run a network like the LU on a pittance, but in the real world you cannot have cheap fares unless something else gives.  I am willing to bet that everyone of those places with "cheaper" fares, cheaper fares is only half the story.  The money must be coming from somewhere else, probably the tax payer.


Now you're starting to get the idea. 

Everyone pays cheap fares, while the richer you are, the more tax you pay. 

Progressive taxation + subsidised transport = win


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 21, 2013)

Bungle73 said:


> I don't see what everyone being a tax payer has to do with what I said.  In fact in only enforces it: one way or another, whether through taxes or fares, you will end up  paying what it costs.


reread #135


----------



## TruXta (Nov 21, 2013)

Bungle73 said:


> Um, yes they did.  It was said that they don't need to shut down for the system for maintenance because the NYS has quadruple track (which is actually used to run express services). You dick.


Um, no they didn't.


----------



## Bungle73 (Nov 21, 2013)

I said the LU needs to shut down over night because it is the only time they can do maintenance.  Someone said the NYS runs 24 hours, and I said then when do the do maintenance, and the answer was they don't have to shut down because they have quadruple track, which is completely wrong.


----------



## Bungle73 (Nov 21, 2013)

TruXta said:


> Um, no they didn't.


Um, yes they did:



TruXta said:


> IIRC they have double tracks each way so don't need to shut everything down for maintenance.



and it was YOU!


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 21, 2013)

Still, 20 quid a week for the equivalent of a zone 1-6 travelcard. Cheap, innit?


----------



## skyscraper101 (Nov 21, 2013)

NY subway isn't really comparable. It's a lot less nice than LU really and doesn't get the same levels of investment.

The only benefit is the 24-hour running.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 21, 2013)

skyscraper101 said:


> NY subway isn't really comparable. It's a lot less nice than LU really and doesn't get the same levels of investment.
> 
> The only benefit is the 24-hour running.


And the fares that are about one-third the price.  It is comparable in that sense. 

How about Moscow? Famously nice system. 60p per journey with an Oyster-type thing. 4 quid for a one-day travelcard. linky


----------



## Bungle73 (Nov 21, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> And the fares that are about one-third the price.  It is comparable in that sense.
> 
> How about Moscow? Famously nice system. 60p per journey with an Oyster-type thing. 4 quid for a one-day travelcard. linky


And what's the average wage in Moscow? Exactly.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 21, 2013)

Bungle73 said:


> And what's the average wage in Moscow? Exactly.


What's the average wage in NYC, Tokyo or Singapore?


----------



## cesare (Nov 21, 2013)

Is using average wage a good indicator? The highest paid bring the average up and are least likely to use public transport.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 21, 2013)

cesare said:


> Is using average wage a good indicator? The highest paid bring the average up and are least likely to use public transport.


That's very true. Median is a far better gauge. But bungle can't just jump on one system and say 'exactly' when all the other examples are of places with high wages.


----------



## Fez909 (Nov 21, 2013)

Berlin's underground runs all night, is efficient, clean and extensive.

£5.10 for a day ticket, or £1.20 per trip if buying singles.


----------



## Bungle73 (Nov 21, 2013)

cesare said:


> Is using average wage a good indicator? The highest paid bring the average up and are least likely to use public transport.


Um, yes. It is no good bringing the fares on the Mocow metro into the argument as if they actually mean something in comparison with the LU when the cost of living in Moscow, and people wages, are far far lower than they are here. Not  a valid comparison.


----------



## cesare (Nov 21, 2013)

Bungle73 said:


> Um, yes. It is no good bringing the fares on the Mocow metro into the argument as if they actually mean something in comparison with the LU when the cost of living in Moscow, and people wages, are far far lower than they are here. Not  a valid comparison.


I insist you disagree with me.


----------



## Fez909 (Nov 21, 2013)

Bungle73 said:


> Um, yes. It is no good bringing the fares on the Mocow metro into the argument as if they actually mean something in comparison with the LU when the cost of living in Moscow, and people wages, are far far lower than they are here. Not  a valid comparison.



What about Tokyo or NYC then? Their wages are higher than here.


----------



## Bungle73 (Nov 21, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> That's very true. Median is a far better gauge. But bungle can't just jump on one system and say 'exactly' when all the other examples are of places with high wages.


I'm not jumping on anything.  You cannot compare prices of things in countries with vastly different economies like Russia and the UK because the comparisons are invalid.


Fez909 said:


> Berlin's underground runs all night, is efficient, clean and extensive.
> 
> £5.10 for a day ticket, or £1.20 per trip if buying singles.


Same question: when do they do routine maintenance?


----------



## Yossarian (Nov 21, 2013)

skyscraper101 said:


> TBF, I prefer the London tube to any other I've used around the world. It's generally a lot cleaner, brighter and safer to NY or Paris..



Have you been on many others? I would definitely put London at or near the bottom of the ones I've used - some lines are pretty good but a lot of the system is so incredibly old and decrepit that they need to just abandon it to the rats and start again.


----------



## TruXta (Nov 21, 2013)

Bungle73 said:


> Um, yes they did:
> 
> 
> 
> and it was YOU!


'everything'


----------



## Bungle73 (Nov 21, 2013)

Fez909 said:


> What about Tokyo or NYC then? Their wages are higher than here.


Hasn't it already been pointed out that the NYC system is bit crap compared with ours?  I don't know about Tokyo.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 21, 2013)

Eh up, bungle. How's about a comparable system that's cheaper? NYC's subway's not that bad, btw.


----------



## Fez909 (Nov 21, 2013)

Bungle73 said:


> Hasn't it already been pointed out that the NYC system is bit crap compared with ours?  I don't know about Tokyo.



Tokyo's metro has 8 million passengers a day. They have overcrowding issues, but it must be alright to serve that many people. It's the second busiest subway system in the world after Seoul.

The metro in Seoul costs 67p for up to 10km travelled.


----------



## Fez909 (Nov 21, 2013)

Bungle73 said:


> Hasn't it already been pointed out that the NYC system is bit crap compared with ours?  I don't know about Tokyo.



"A bit crap"? Based on what? I'd much rather have an affordable, less snazzy system, than one that costs as much as LU. It serves more people than the London one, too. And it's got double the number of stations over the same amount of track distance, so that implies a more extensive service.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 21, 2013)

Fez909 said:


> "A bit crap"? Based on what? I'd much rather have an affordable, less snazzy system, than one that costs as much as LU. It serves more people than the London one, too. And it's got double the number of stations over the same amount of track distance, so that implies a more extensive service.


Yeah, but some of the seats are a bit hard.


----------



## Fez909 (Nov 21, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Yeah, but some of the seats are a bit hard.


(((NYers)))


----------



## Bungle73 (Nov 21, 2013)

Fez909 said:


> "A bit crap"? Based on what? I'd much rather have an affordable, less snazzy system, than one that costs as much as LU. It serves more people than the London one, too. And it's got double the number of stations over the same amount of track distance, so that implies a more extensive service.


Um, based on this.



skyscraper101 said:


> NY subway isn't really comparable. It's a lot less nice than LU really and doesn't get the same levels of investment.
> 
> The only benefit is the 24-hour running.



I've seen the NYS on TV, the trains are invariably covered with graffiti. When was the last time you saw a graffiti covered LU train?  It happens rarely.

I don't think you people know what you want.  One minute you coming out with how "crap" out system is, and the next you say you'd want even more "crap" (even though it isn't in the first place), just so you can have cheaper fares.  Tell me where you want the cuts to be made?  Tell me where should start cutting back on safety so you have a few more pounds to spend down the pub?


----------



## TruXta (Nov 21, 2013)

Bungle73 said:


> I've seen the NYS on TV, the trains are invariably covered with graffiti. When was the last time you saw a graffiti covered LU train?  It happens rarely.



That's not the case anymore, not any more than here anyway IME.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 21, 2013)

I quite like a bit of graffiti as it goes. Livens the place up.


----------



## TruXta (Nov 21, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I quite like a bit of graffiti as it goes. Livens the place up.


Apparently it used to look like this. Bit much IMO.


----------



## Fez909 (Nov 21, 2013)

Bungle73 said:


> Tell me where you want the cuts to be made?  Tell me where should start cutting back on safety so you have a few more pounds to spend down the pub?



I'm not from London so it's not for me to decide, but if I was asked I'd start with bosses salaries/bonuses.


----------



## skyscraper101 (Nov 21, 2013)

They could also bring in on the spot fines for all buskers who play Bob Marley or Oasis tracks.


----------



## Crispy (Nov 21, 2013)

A thought - 24 hour tube will provide a whole bunch of extra shifts for station staff, so that's probably one way to absorb the "redundant" staff.


----------



## davesgcr (Nov 21, 2013)

Myth - NYC trains are covered in graffitti - not since 1988 when the last fully tagged train went to the breakers. Yes - it is a "basic" system for comfort - but it runs pretty well (and has seen growth and more service to come in the next year) - it has always run 24/7 due to multiple tracking on key routes (4 / 3 lines vice the 2 in London) 

And a "heads up" for London - very busy certainly - but with Oyster can be quite affordable and with stunning service levels (33 trains per hour on the Central and Jubilee lines) - trains and stations very clean bar the odd moronic littering. Good information systems. Visible staff. 

Come on please - ? (tempted to do a John Cleese rant on "Krakato and wilderbeest rampaging across the Veldt"......


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## Belushi (Nov 21, 2013)

Public transport in London is vastly better than when  I moved here 20 years ago.


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## littlebabyjesus (Nov 21, 2013)

Belushi said:


> Public transport in London is vastly better than when  I moved here 20 years ago.


Definitely. The buses particularly, but also the tube. Night buses have been transformed.

It is the best public transport system in Britain by miles. And Davesgr is right that it isn't scandalously expensive, but it has gone up in price a lot since Johnson got in. Buses with oyster were 90p just four or five years ago. And it is more expensive than most comparable systems around the world.


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## baffled (Nov 21, 2013)

Love the fact they can announce 24hr running even though they've yet to begin negotiations with the drivers unions over changes to their rosters.


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## davesgcr (Nov 21, 2013)

Just remember what the Northern line was like 20 years ago - black and filthy - (you could smell the dust in the air -) - putting you arm on a window ledge on the old 1959 stock meant a cleaning bill. Off peak service was patchy to say the least , with big intervals in train service. Certain lines were "no go" areas after 2000 hrs - think of the "Jam and Down in a Tube Station at Midnight"?.


 Nightbuses ran hourly or so , on a few selected routes.


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## Puddy_Tat (Nov 21, 2013)

davesgcr said:


> Nightbuses ran hourly or so , on a few selected routes.



and, with one or two exceptions, not on saturday nights


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## stethoscope (Dec 3, 2013)

Anybody hear Boris doing his usual bluffing and muddling away on LBC this morning? He might want to use a ticket office to advise him on the cost of fares...

http://snipelondon.com/scoop/listen-boris-johnson-can-t-say-how-much-a-tube-fare-costs

Oh wait.


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## smorodina (Dec 3, 2013)

Santino said:


> Who's going to dish out Oyster cards?


They are available from larger ticket machines. Guess, there will be more of those.


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## Favelado (Dec 4, 2013)

davesgcr said:


> Just remember what the Northern line was like 20 years ago - black and filthy - (you could smell the dust in the air -) - putting you arm on a window ledge on the old 1959 stock meant a cleaning bill. Off peak service was patchy to say the least , with big intervals in train service. Certain lines were "no go" areas after 2000 hrs - think of the "Jam and Down in a Tube Station at Midnight"?.
> 
> 
> Nightbuses ran hourly or so , on a few selected routes.



If you hit a seat on the old trains a cloud of dark dust could be sent quite high into the air. "No-go" areas though? Really? Admittedly I only know as far back as 1997.

e2a You can argue it's good or not so good but It IS scandalously expensive.


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## Favelado (Dec 4, 2013)

bungle NYC trains haven't been covered in graffiti since the late 80s. 

e2a someone told you that 2 weeks' ago though. It's very early. I'll post after I've had a coffee.


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## TitanSound (Dec 4, 2013)

davesgcr said:


> Nightbuses ran hourly or so , on a few selected routes.



Yep, and if you just missed one you better start walking or hail a cab. Many didn't turn up an hour later or were fucking rammed.


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## Citizen66 (Dec 4, 2013)

Anyone remember 'steaming' in the late 90s where a gang of scrotes would get on a tube/train and basically go through the carriage taxing everyone?


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## Spymaster (Dec 4, 2013)

Citizen66 said:


> Anyone remember 'steaming' in the late 90s where a gang of scrotes would get on a tube/train and basically go through the carriage taxing everyone?




Wasn't there a "steaming" case where a group of said scrotes luck ran out when they tried to "tax" 3 Royal Marines on leave?


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## Citizen66 (Dec 4, 2013)

Spymaster said:
			
		

> Wasn't there a "steaming" case where a group of said scrotes luck ran out when they tried to "tax" 3 Royal Marines on leave?





There was a story of a couple of bent tube workers using their ID to masquerade as ticket inspectors on trains (on the spot fine, ta) whose luck ran out when they chanced upon a senior manager...


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## Belushi (Dec 4, 2013)

Citizen66 said:


> Anyone remember 'steaming' in the late 90s where a gang of scrotes would get on a tube/train and basically go through the carriage taxing everyone?


 
Yeah, I vaguely remember a carriage full of people somewhere like Deptford or Lewisham being held up.


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## ViolentPanda (Dec 4, 2013)

SpookyFrank said:


> Yes. Just like probably everybody else does. I never had any trouble getting around in France, Italy, Germany etc despite my limited command of the relevant langauges. Even as an English speaking person, the worst city I've been to in Europe in terms of accessible public transport is London.
> 
> e2a: And we're talking worst by a country mile. Even Paris is a joy by comparison.



TBF, IIRC ticket machines in those countries have multi-lingual instructions - you just cycle through the language options.  That makes the whole process a lot easier.  I dunno about TfL ticket machines, because I haven't needed to use one for over a decade.


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## TitanSound (Dec 4, 2013)

TFL machines do have language options.


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## ViolentPanda (Dec 4, 2013)

Bungle73 said:


> An 6 Zone Travelcard gives unlimited travel on ALL public transport inside London for £8.90 for a day.  How is that not great value?



An all-day all-zone travelcard for Berlin is 7 euros, 20 cents, or about £5.50p, and the outer zone extends a fair bit further into the sticks than the outer London zone does.
An all-day all-zone travelcard for Paris is 9 euros, 75 cents, or about £7.50p

What's that you were saying about "great value"?


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## ViolentPanda (Dec 4, 2013)

TitanSound said:


> TFL machines do have language options.



Easy to access (the ones in Berlin, you cycled through national flags)?


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## ViolentPanda (Dec 4, 2013)

Bungle73 said:


> So when do they maintenance?  The main reason the Tube doesn't run 24 is because over night it is the only time they can do routine maintenance.



Strangely enough, more of the metros in foreign capitals are double-tracked in both directions or have reasonably complete alternate routes on other lines, so maintenance isn't such an issue.


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## TitanSound (Dec 4, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Easy to access (the ones in Berlin, you cycled through national flags)?



Pretty much


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## ViolentPanda (Dec 4, 2013)

cesare said:


> Is using average wage a good indicator? The highest paid bring the average up and are least likely to use public transport.



Germans have a higher average wage, and yet their municipal transport systems beat ours on fares hands-down.


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## ViolentPanda (Dec 4, 2013)

skyscraper101 said:


> They could also bring in on the spot fines for all buskers who play Bob Marley or Oasis tracks.



You ain't heard nuthin' until you hear a German busker murder "no woman, no cry".


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## ViolentPanda (Dec 4, 2013)

TitanSound said:


> Pretty much



I said it had been a long time since I used one!


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## Bungle73 (Dec 4, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> An all-day all-zone travelcard for Berlin is 7 euros, 20 cents, or about £5.50p, and the outer zone extends a fair bit further into the sticks than the outer London zone does.
> An all-day all-zone travelcard for Paris is 9 euros, 75 cents, or about £7.50p
> 
> What's that you were saying about "great value"?


Berlin is 344 square miles, Greater London is 607............ Try again.  I haven't looked into Paris, but I am more than sure that the comparison is invalid there also.  Really this "everywhere else is better than here" bs has to stop.


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## bi0boy (Dec 4, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> An all-day all-zone travelcard for Berlin is 7 euros, 20 cents, or about £5.50p, and the outer zone extends a fair bit further into the sticks than the outer London zone does.
> An all-day all-zone travelcard for Paris is 9 euros, 75 cents, or about £7.50p
> 
> What's that you were saying about "great value"?



What's the investment and maintenance budget of the the Berlin Metro?


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## Citizen66 (Dec 4, 2013)

Bungle73 said:
			
		

> An 6 Zone Travelcard gives unlimited travel on ALL public transport inside London for £8.90 for a day.  How is that not great value?



When you want to travel before 09:30 am?


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## ViolentPanda (Dec 4, 2013)

davesgcr said:


> Myth - NYC trains are covered in graffitti - not since 1988 when the last fully tagged train went to the breakers. Yes - it is a "basic" system for comfort - but it runs pretty well (and has seen growth and more service to come in the next year) - it has always run 24/7 due to multiple tracking on key routes (4 / 3 lines vice the 2 in London)
> 
> And a "heads up" for London - very busy certainly - but with Oyster can be quite affordable and with stunning service levels (33 trains per hour on the Central and Jubilee lines) - trains and stations very clean bar the odd moronic littering. Good information systems. Visible staff.
> 
> Come on please - ? (tempted to do a John Cleese rant on "Krakato and wilderbeest rampaging across the Veldt"......



I love the London public transport system, even though too many rail and tube stations are still either inaccessible or only quasi-accessible, so I can't use them.  TfL have done a lot of good work, and I suspect that if Boris hadn't won the mayorship, then at least some of the older inaccessible stations would have been rendered accessible by now, as I believe that TfL had plans for renovating and improving some Central London tube stations.


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## littlebabyjesus (Dec 4, 2013)

Agree with that. A lot of good people work for TfL. Shame about the nob who was elected to be in charge of it - must have been a frustrating few years to work for TfL.


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## ViolentPanda (Dec 4, 2013)

bi0boy said:


> What's the investment and maintenance budget of the the Berlin Metro?



I'll look up the figures, but I know there's never enough money to go round, as they're still playing "catch up" due to reunification, and after their fiasco with single-exit stations in the noughties.

E2A:  The Berlin transport budget is a unified budget, as all modes of transport (S-Bahn, U-Bahn, trams and buses) are publicly-owned, and are administered by BVG, so it might be a bit difficult sorting out like-for-like with London.


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## ViolentPanda (Dec 4, 2013)

Bungle73 said:


> Berlin is 344 square miles, Greater London is 607............ Try again.  I haven't looked into Paris, but I am more than sure that the comparison is invalid there also.  Really this "everywhere else is better than here" bs has to stop.



I haven't said that "everywhere else is better".
I've said that other municipal systems are cheaper (many European capitals have systems that are far more accessible, too).
Now, don't put fucking words in my mouth, shithead.


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## Bungle73 (Dec 4, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> I haven't said that "everywhere else is better".


Orly?  That's the general vibe that goes on here, and that is coming from you


> I've said that other municipal systems are cheaper (many European capitals have systems that are far more accessible, too).


"Many European capitals" don't have systems as old as ours is, lines as deep as ours, or stations where making them fully accessible is nearly or entirely impractical or indeed impossible.

As for the other thing, once again you're comparing apples with oranges. 

Shithead


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## ViolentPanda (Dec 4, 2013)

Bungle73 said:


> Orly?  That's the general vibe that goes on here, and that is coming from you



Even though my only statements pertaining to London's system have been to say that I love it, but wish it was more accessible, and that London is more expensive than other capitals in terms of public transport.
In other words, my posts don't even *imply* that one system is "better" than another.



> "Many European capitals" don't have systems as old as ours is, lines as deep as ours, or stations where making them fully accessible is nearly or entirely impractical or indeed impossible.



You're talking crap.  I've used the Paris, Cologne and Berlin systems, all of which have lines as deep as ours, all of which are within 15-20 years as old as ours, and most of which are accessible because the transport authority put a bit of effort in, whether that meant staging lifts from level to level, or digging out surrounding ground in order to fit escalator banks.



> As for the other thing, once again you're comparing apples with oranges.
> 
> Shithead



Wank-faced twatmonkey.


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## Bungle73 (Dec 4, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Even though my only statements pertaining to London's system have been to say that I love it, but wish it was more accessible, and that London is more expensive than other capitals in terms of public transport.
> In other words, my posts don't even *imply* that one system is "better" than another.


No, you did what you people always do:  make comparisons based on in factor and completely ignore all the other factors invovled which when taken into account make the original comparison completely invalid; like comparing the Paris and London  Travelcard style products when Greater London is nearly twice as big as Paris.



> You're talking crap.  I've used the Paris, Cologne and Berlin systems, all of which have lines as deep as ours, all of which are within 15-20 years as old as ours, and most of which are accessible because the transport authority put a bit of effort in, whether that meant staging lifts from level to level, or digging out surrounding ground in order to fit escalator banks.


Dig out the surrounding ground? Just like that huh?  And what do you propose to do about all the utilities and other infrastructure that permeates the ground throughout London, making large excavations difficult or impossible? Go to Westminster station and take a look at the box that contains the escalators down the Jubilee line. That box is the entirety of the space that had to work with when they reconstructed the station.  And then there's the fact that a lot of stations are listed, so the work that can be done to them is very limited.  It's not a case of "putting effort in", it's case of only being able to do certain things because that is all that is practical or possible.  The Tube is never going to be 100% accessible, you may not like it, but that's just the way that it is.



> Wank-faced twatmonkey.


Bumface.


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## Puddy_Tat (Dec 4, 2013)




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## Citizen66 (Dec 4, 2013)

Bungle73 said:


> No, you did what you people always do:  make comparisons based on in factor and completely ignore all the other factors invovled which when taken into account make the original comparison completely invalid; like comparing the Paris and London  Travelcard style products when Greater London is nearly twice as big as Paris.



It also carries a more significant number of passengers; a factor you seem to have missed. 

More people = more ££££

Yeah?


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## ViolentPanda (Dec 4, 2013)

Bungle73 said:


> No, you did what you people always do:  make comparisons based on in factor and completely ignore all the other factors invovled which when taken into account make the original comparison completely invalid; like comparing the Paris and London  Travelcard style products when Greater London is nearly twice as big as Paris.
> 
> 
> Dig out the surrounding ground? Just like that huh?  And what do you propose to do about all the utilities and other infrastructure that permeates the ground throughout London, making large excavations difficult or impossible? Go to Westminster station and take a look at the box that contains the escalators down the Jubilee line. That box is the entirety of the space that had to work with when they reconstructed the station.  And then there's the fact that a lot of stations are listed, so the work that can be done to them is very limited.  It's not a case of "putting effort in", it's case of only being able to do certain things because that is all that is practical or possible.  The Tube is never going to be 100% accessible, you may not like it, but that's just the way that it is.
> ...



All the excuses you trot out for why London is less accessible applied (including having historically-scheduled stations) to the other cities I mentioned, and yet they've all managed to attain over 70% accessibility - in Berlin's case over 85%.
London's train and tube stations, meanwhile, are about 1/3rd fully-accessible.  That isn't due to listing, engineering difficulties or any other engineering or legal issue. It's all about short-termism and the lack of political will to spend money, even though we have an ageing population in London, as in the UK as a whole, and actually *need* greater accessibility.

You mange-ridden, scrotum-faced were-ferret.


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## davesgcr (Dec 4, 2013)

Was in Berlin last week - outside the apartment we were staying in (old East) - they were busy relaying and extending a route "lost" in August 1961 - they laid 300 years of line and 3 sets of points in 2 x 8 hour shifts. Impressive stuff. There are 4 extensions to tram lines being built and a new U-Bahn line. Great system - though not as frequent as London's tube - but very good value fares. My son tells me wages in Berlin (and work) is below the normal German rate. All U-Bahn stations are minimally manned with no barriers - fare evasion is reckoned at 6% (about 3% over here) - but they do have plain and uniformed security / ticket inspectors who do not mess around.


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## davesgcr (Dec 4, 2013)

Citizen66 said:


> There was a story of a couple of bent tube workers using their ID to masquerade as ticket inspectors on trains (on the spot fine, ta) whose luck ran out when they chanced upon a senior manager...




Found a group doing "illegal" ticket checks on the North London Line in 1996 - had to admire them for their bravery.


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## littlebabyjesus (Dec 4, 2013)

davesgcr said:


> fare evasion is reckoned at 6% (about 3% over here) - but they do have plain and uniformed security / ticket inspectors who do not mess around.


Yep. You're in deep shit if you're caught fare-evading in Germany. Court appearance, big fine and criminal record. It's the same in many parts of Europe - the trade-off for minimal enforcement is maximal consequences of being caught.


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## littlebabyjesus (Dec 4, 2013)

Poor old bungle. Now not only does he need to come up with a better argument. He also needs a better insult to go with it.


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## _pH_ (Dec 4, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Yep. You're in deep shit if you're caught fare-evading in Germany. Court appearance, big fine and criminal record. It's the same in many parts of Europe - the trade-off for minimal enforcement is maximal consequences of being caught.


Years ago, but I got caught on the U-Bahn in Nuremberg. Small fine but no court appearance, no criminal record. Is it different now then?


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## littlebabyjesus (Dec 4, 2013)

_pH_ said:


> Years ago, but I got caught on the U-Bahn in Nuremberg. Small fine but no court appearance, no criminal record. Is it different now then?


Hmmm. I was told this by a German, but I've just looked it up and they say fixed penalty of 40 euros. So maybe that's wrong. Or they were trying to get me to buy a ticket.


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## Puddy_Tat (Dec 4, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> You're talking crap.  I've used the Paris, Cologne and Berlin systems, all of which have lines as deep as ours, all of which are within 15-20 years as old as ours, and most of which are accessible because the transport authority put a bit of effort in, whether that meant staging lifts from level to level, or digging out surrounding ground in order to fit escalator banks.



In some cases, this 'surrounding ground' may be a bit difficult to find round London tube stations.

That having been said, it does seem that the planners in the UK seem to put considerably more flap in to the process of accessibility enhancements, rather than just getting on with them as seems to be the case elsewhere.

(West) Berlin had wheelchair accessible buses on a lot of routes before the wall came down...


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## _pH_ (Dec 4, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Hmmm. I was told this by a German, but I've just looked it up and they say fixed penalty of 40 euros. So maybe that's wrong. Or they were trying to get me to buy a ticket.


Well as I say it was a long time ago. So long ago the fine was 30DM.


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## Bungle73 (Dec 4, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> All the excuses you trot out for why London is less accessible applied (including having historically-scheduled stations) to the other cities I mentioned, and yet they've all managed to attain over 70% accessibility - in Berlin's case over 85%.
> London's train and tube stations, meanwhile, are about 1/3rd fully-accessible.  That isn't due to listing, engineering difficulties or any other engineering or legal issue. It's all about short-termism and the lack of political will to spend money, even though we have an ageing population in London, as in the UK as a whole, and actually *need* greater accessibility.



I see.  Like a lot of people when it comes to our railways you're not interested in the actual legitimate reasons why things are the way they are you just want to have a pointless moan, and produce a list of unreasonable demands. And on top of that, one minute you complain about the price of fares, and the next you're wanting millions more spent on top of the millions already being invested in infrastructure improvements and new trains.  Not only do you want your cake and to eat it, you want two cakes!

I am telling you that the ground beneath London is too crowded to just go making big excavations willly nilly.  That is a fact.



> You mange-ridden, scrotum-faced were-ferret.


You penis-faced shoe eater.


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## littlebabyjesus (Dec 4, 2013)

_pH_ said:


> Well as I say it was a long time ago. So long ago the fine was 30DM.


Yeah, but it's only 40 euros now. I reckon I was told a fib to scare me. Should have checked before posting, really - it's easy to look up. 

I try to obey the rules when abroad, when possible. Best not to abuse a system unless you know how it works.

ETA: German system sounds just like ours. I was wrong.


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## davesgcr (Dec 4, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Yeah, but it's only 40 euros now. I reckon I was told a fib to scare me. Should have checked before posting, really - it's easy to look up.
> 
> I try to obey the rules when abroad, when possible. Best not to abuse a system unless you know how it works.
> 
> ETA: German system sounds just like ours. I was wrong.



40 Euros first time - then double / treble on next 2 occasions - then the Judicial system kicks in. My daughter forgot to stamp her day pass - (genuine mistake) , so they kindly gave her the benefit of the doubt as she was an "auslander" .....!!


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## Brainaddict (Jun 24, 2015)

This is now happening. Went into Canada Water. Oyster card chip was broken. No ticket office. Got to my destination. No ticket office. Guy at the barrier told me most of them are now closed. The few remaining ticket offices will close soon. When I finally got to a ticket office to change the Oyster Card, I asked the guy how I would do it when none are remaining. He shook his head and said they don't know yet.

What pisses me off too is how little support the staff got when they tried to oppose this. Just the usual abuse from the right wing press and so on. But this affects everybody. It is shit, and we should have been able to stop it. But the disinformation machine had its usual success. Plus London is a tough place to establish solidarity I guess. It feels like a very depressing sign of the times - we can't even organise for the easy wins, when everyone (bar a few high bracket tax payers) would benefit from us winning.


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