# Fuck Gentrification - Join the Fuck Parade...Part 3!



## ClassWar2015 (Aug 14, 2015)

Stand up to gentrification!

Our communities are being ripped apart - by Russian oligarchs, Saudi Sheiks, Israeli scumbag property developers, Texan oil-money twats and our own home-grown Eton toffs. Local authorities are coining it in, in a short sighted race for cash by "regenerating" social housing.

We don't want luxury flats that no one can afford, we want genuinely affordable housing. We don't want pop-up gin bars or brioche buns - we want community. 

Soon this City will be an unrecognisable, bland, yuppie infested wasteland with no room for normal (and not so normal) people like us.

London is our home and worth defending against this onslaught of dog-eat-dog economics. Working class people are being forced out of our homes but we won't go out without a fight.

We will protest this economic warfare with a street party on September 26th.

The past Fuck Parades have been fun and furious with music, pyrotechnics and cheeky banner drops. They brought together hundreds of revellers, ravers and wrong-un's and were reported widely in the media. 

We want to up the ante but need money to provide a banging sound system and other protest "accessories" ;-) to make this an effective direct action.

Bung in a couple of quid, or a bit more if you're feeling flash! 

May The Fuck Be With You xx

Crowdfunder: https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/fuck-parade-reclaim-our-communities

Facebook event: https://www.facebook.com/events/1688801828009848/

Twitter: https://twitter.com/FuckParadeLDN


----------



## ClassWar2015 (Aug 31, 2015)

Hitler's not pleased he's been banned from Fuck Parade 3


----------



## sihhi (Aug 31, 2015)

I don't understand this: "Fighting gentrification with 12 volt multi-rig street parties, furious fire eating & fireworks" it says as an intro. 
At the risk of being seen as nasty, surely that list of things would only increase middle-class interest / gentrification in the area ?1?!

What exactly does Fuck Parade mean? What is the Parade being opposed? Isn't the Parade the name of the protest?


----------



## ClassWar2015 (Aug 31, 2015)

sihhi said:


> I don't understand this: "Fighting gentrification with 12 volt multi-rig street parties, furious fire eating & fireworks" it says as an intro.
> At the risk of being seen as nasty, surely that list of things would only increase middle-class interest / gentrification in the area ?1?!



What's your idea of militant working class fun?

Racing whippets and supping a pint of mild in the local working mans club?


----------



## sihhi (Aug 31, 2015)

ClassWar2015 said:


> What's your idea of militant working class fun?
> 
> Racing whippets and supping a pint of mild in the local working mans club?



If it's just working class fun, why are people being encouraged to pay to set it up https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/fuck-parade-reclaim-our-communities ?!

I don't understand it and your response hasn't convinced me but good luck in stopping gentrification if it does this.


----------



## seventh bullet (Aug 31, 2015)

Is that Immortan Joe's Doof Wagon?


----------



## ClassWar2015 (Sep 1, 2015)

seventh bullet said:


> Is that Immortan Joe's Doof Wagon?



Was.


----------



## ClassWar2015 (Sep 1, 2015)

sihhi said:


> If it's just working class fun, why are people being encouraged to pay to set it up https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/fuck-parade-reclaim-our-communities ?!



Beacuse we're skint. Anyone more daft questions?


----------



## LDC (Sep 1, 2015)

I'm not against this event, but I'm also not sure how it actually translates into slowing and stopping gentrification? What's the plan behind it? Does it feed into local campaigns or political groups working on the issue? What's the general plan for 'stopping gentrification' anyway? Is there some writing that you've done somewhere that explains it all?


----------



## ManchesterBeth (Sep 1, 2015)

Can I come with my stalin posters, soviet flags, combat boots and berets?

Cheers.


----------



## Nice one (Sep 1, 2015)

ClassWar2015 said:


> Beacuse we're skint. Anyone more daft questions?



what is your idea of militant working class fun

dogging?

car boot sales?

ketamine at squat parties?

football at the clapton ultras?

Gentrification is when the middle class supplant the localised working class - gentrification starts with the middle classes wanting to buy in. I think that was the point of sihhi's post. For example you could look at how UCL has essentially taken over large swathes of housing, community centres, buildings etc in camden. But you've already 'done' camden haven't you. 

The capitalists may be the ultimate benefactors financially but its the middle class who act as its frontline infantry in the war of gentrification. Something to consider. 



ClassWar2015 said:


> Racing whippets and supping a pint of mild in the local working mans club?



northern working class stereotyping, really?


----------



## ClassWar2015 (Sep 1, 2015)

Nice one said:


> Something to consider.



What the have you done to fight this social cleansing?

Fuck all I bet.


----------



## ClassWar2015 (Sep 1, 2015)

dialectician said:


> Can I come with my stalin posters, soviet flags, combat boots and berets?
> 
> Cheers.



You can try


----------



## ClassWar2015 (Sep 1, 2015)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> I'm not against this event, but I'm also not sure how it actually translates into slowing and stopping gentrification? What's the plan behind it? Does it feed into local campaigns or political groups working on the issue? What's the general plan for 'stopping gentrification' anyway? Is there some writing that you've done somewhere that explains it all?



*What's the plan behind it?* I'm not going to lay bare our tactics on a public forum. What I will say is that the last Fuck Parade generated a lot of sympathetic discussion in the media and it got people out on the streets.

*Does it feed into local campaigns or political groups working on the issue? *Yes, we are part of and work with local grassroots groups.
*
What's the general plan for 'stopping gentrification' anyway? *The violent overthrow of the state.
*
Is there some writing that you've done somewhere that explains it all? *Watch this space....the FUCK Manifesto is coming


----------



## ClassWar2015 (Sep 1, 2015)

Nice one said:


> northern working class stereotyping, really?



That was a direct knock on shihhi's assumption that the working class have one set of thought and actions. As well you know.


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 1, 2015)

A ginormous game of bingo in the middle of Camden High St. A sound system would be required for that too of course.


----------



## urbanspaceman (Sep 1, 2015)

"...Israeli scumbag property developers…"

Nice swerve there. Do you mean "Israelis" from Tel Aviv or Stamford Hill ?


----------



## LDC (Sep 2, 2015)

ClassWar2015 said:


> *What's the plan behind it?* I'm not going to lay bare our tactics on a public forum. What I will say is that the last Fuck Parade generated a lot of sympathetic discussion in the media and it got people out on the streets.
> 
> *Does it feed into local campaigns or political groups working on the issue? *Yes, we are part of and work with local grassroots groups.
> *
> ...



Cheers for the reply!


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 2, 2015)

urbanspaceman said:


> "...Israeli scumbag property developers…"
> 
> Nice swerve there. Do you mean "Israelis" from Tel Aviv or Stamford Hill ?


i think here we're referring to the israeli billionaire who has bought camden market. Israeli billionaire and gambling tycoon buys Camden Lock Market are you going to complain to the ham & high for describing yer man as an israeli? thought not.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 2, 2015)

ClassWar2015 said:


> What the have you done to fight this social cleansing?
> 
> Fuck all I bet.


that's not entirely true. i don't think i betray a confidence when i say yer man's done some grand things. he does have laurels to rest on.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 2, 2015)

Nice one said:


> gentrification starts with the middle classes wanting to buy in.


no it doesn't. there's certain preparatory work done before that.





> For example you could look at how UCL has essentially taken over large swathes of housing, community centres, buildings etc in camden.


 i suppose you'd have a greater knowledge of what ucl have done than most, but i have never heard you say anything about this before. which is strange, if it's so important to you, as you've been here so long.


----------



## editor (Sep 2, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> i think here we're referring to the israeli billionaire who has bought camden market. Israeli billionaire and gambling tycoon buys Camden Lock Market are you going to complain to the ham & high for describing yer man as an israeli? thought not.








A billionaire who's made his loot from property and the gambling industry. Ugh.



> “We are not just gaining an iconic market, but a world renowned brand and great traders, retailers and management team.
> 
> “Our aim now is to look at long term regeneration of the markets whilst taking an holistic approach to Camden Town as a whole.


Blah blah fucking holistic blah. The greedy cunt is just going to do whatever he can to make more money out of the place.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 2, 2015)

editor said:


> A billionaire who's made his loot from property and the gambling industry. Ugh.


ugh indeed.


----------



## sim667 (Sep 2, 2015)

ClassWar2015 said:


> What's your idea of militant working class fun?
> 
> Racing whippets and supping a pint of mild in the local working mans club?



Will there be a jellied eel and pie & mash stall?


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 2, 2015)

Nice one said:


> northern working class stereotyping, really?


before you know it it will be a hipster reality


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 2, 2015)

sim667 said:


> Will there be a jellied eel and pie & mash stall?


not so sure pie and mash on the menu


----------



## sim667 (Sep 2, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> not so sure pie and mash on the menu


Artisan pies.


----------



## cesare (Sep 2, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> not so sure pie and mash on the menu


Not since the squad misappropriated it


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 2, 2015)

sim667 said:


> Artisan pies.


----------



## sihhi (Sep 2, 2015)

ClassWar2015 said:


> That was a direct knock on shihhi's assumption that the working class have one set of thought and actions. As well you know.



There's no assumption apart from trying to suggest people might see things in a different way people have donated two hundred pounds to you for what are either props for a protest/or/ means for fun-stress relief

My point would be FuckParade make assumptions themselves and it's sticky messy ground

eg this (follow the feed)
"We don't want your fucking hipster pop-ups. Go back to Hertfordshire. You aren't helpless bystanders in the class war - you're the problem."

in response to a pop-up shop in Dalston that has free Hammerschlagen A pop-up bar where you hammer nails into logs is opening in Dalston — dalstonist

And here is that pop-up shop's political figleaf for what's basically stress relief Hammerschlagen x FREE TIBET Supper Club @ DOT Cafe & Bar | Facebook
a fundraiser for a Tibetan orphan village.

Why couldn't someone living by be thinking to themselves 'we don't want a pop-up nightclub in the middle of the street/ railway station'? Is this unfair?
FuckParade thinks some pop-ups bad but its own pop-ups so pure that any question of them is to make assumptions of the working class.

I think we should be aware of the same road as Berlin's antigentrification movt- loads of parties massive turnouts etc but underneath alienation and resentment of the incoming politically minded.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 2, 2015)

sihhi said:


> There's no assumption apart from trying to suggest people might see things in a different way people have donated two hundred pounds to you for what are either props for a protest/or/ means for fun-stress relief
> 
> My point would be FuckParade make assumptions themselves and it's sticky messy ground
> 
> ...


i don't think a demonstration, which is what this is, is really equivalent to a crappy yuppie pop-up in shoreditch or elsewhere. in the latter case the proprietors are making a contribution to the gentrification of an area, frequently in premises formerly housing a business catering to the w/c residents of a neighbourhood.


----------



## sihhi (Sep 2, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> i don't think a demonstration, which is what this is, is really equivalent to a crappy yuppie pop-up in shoreditch or elsewhere. in the latter case the proprietors are making a contribution to the gentrification of an area, frequently in premises formerly housing a business catering to the w/c residents of a neighbourhood.



If it's a demonstration why does it need donations Pickman's?


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 2, 2015)

sihhi said:


> If it's a demonstration why does it need donations Pickman's?


demonstrations do cost money. fliers need to be produced. banners need to be made. sometimes sound systems need to be built. while people often give freely of their time, the materials and printing are not free.


----------



## sihhi (Sep 2, 2015)

It looks like a nightclub flyer







Am I seeing this all wrong? It looks like a remake of the same weirdness of Germany's original FuckParade.


----------



## Nice one (Sep 2, 2015)

ClassWar2015 said:


> What the have you done to fight this social cleansing?
> 
> Fuck all I bet.




i've not been middle class, that's what i've done.


----------



## Nice one (Sep 2, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> i don't think a demonstration, which is what this is, is really equivalent to a crappy yuppie pop-up in shoreditch or elsewhere. in the latter case the proprietors are making a contribution to the gentrification of an area, frequently in premises formerly housing a business catering to the w/c residents of a neighbourhood.



isn't the point the type of person who would go to the pop up is the same type of person who will go to your street party? You're appealing to the same people. You're adding to the "vibrancy" of the area. The self-hating middle class kids who gravitate towards the class war party are the same self-hating middle class kids who drink their posh cocktails out of jam jars. It's a middle class war of moralising oneupmanship played out on the pavement edge of shoreditch high street. As ever the real working class will look on, bemused.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 2, 2015)

Nice one said:


> isn't the point the type of person who would go to the pop up is the same type of person who will go to your street party? You're appealing to the same people. You're adding to the "vibrancy" of the area. The self-hating middle class kids who gravitate towards the class war party are the same self-hating middle class kids who drink their posh cocktails out of jam jars. It's a middle class war of moralising oneupmanship played out on the pavement edge of shoreditch high street. As ever the real working class will look on, bemused.


i'm not appealing to anyone


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 2, 2015)

Nice one said:


> isn't the point the type of person who would go to the pop up is the same type of person who will go to your street party? You're appealing to the same people. You're adding to the "vibrancy" of the area. The self-hating middle class kids who gravitate towards the class war party are the same self-hating middle class kids who drink their posh cocktails out of jam jars. It's a middle class war of moralising oneupmanship played out on the pavement edge of shoreditch high street. As ever the real working class will look on, bemused.


it"s nice to see you retain your revolutionary purity, albeit at the price of never actually doing anything. and when something is done, eg alarm, it's never what you want it to be.


----------



## Nice one (Sep 2, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> it"s nice to see you retain your revolutionary purity, albeit at the price of never actually doing anything. and when something is done, eg alarm, it's never what you want it to be.


----------



## cesare (Sep 2, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> it"s nice to see you retain your revolutionary purity, albeit at the price of never actually doing anything. and when something is done, eg alarm, it's never what you want it to be.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 3, 2015)

Nice one said:


> Gentrification is when the middle class supplant the localised working class - gentrification starts with the middle classes wanting to buy in.



Inaccurate. Gentrification most often starts when _locales_ are allowed to dilapidate beyond an "acceptable" standard. This often causes a "crush" on local social housing at the same time as it creates space in the local private housing market. One could somewhat accurately claim that much gentrification is a result of the destruction of most social solidarities between local authorities and their residents. This explains partially why gentrification, which was slllllloooooooooooooowwwwwwwwww in the '60s and '70s, accelerated with Thatcher, and continues to do so, with entire neighbourhoods being socially-cleansed in years, rather than decades. In fact in the last decade we've achieved the obscenity of local authorities openly colluding in social cleansing in order to bring about what they believe will be "beneficial" (to whom?) demographic change.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 3, 2015)

Nice one said:


> isn't the point the type of person who would go to the pop up is the same type of person who will go to your street party? You're appealing to the same people. You're adding to the "vibrancy" of the area. The self-hating middle class kids who gravitate towards the class war party are the same self-hating middle class kids who drink their posh cocktails out of jam jars. It's a middle class war of moralising oneupmanship played out on the pavement edge of shoreditch high street. As ever the real working class will look on, bemused.



Not true. Some of us "real working class" have used Class War as a convenient position from which to hurl abuse and rocks at the Old Bill  , and most of us have enough wit to discard any moralising, while retaining the core message. I know that working class anarchism may not suit your current set of antipathies, but it exists nonetheless, with or without your (or Class War's) approval.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 3, 2015)

Nice one said:


> isn't the point the type of person who would go to the pop up is the same type of person who will go to your street party? You're appealing to the same people. You're adding to the "vibrancy" of the area. The self-hating middle class kids who gravitate towards the class war party are the same self-hating middle class kids who drink their posh cocktails out of jam jars. It's a middle class war of moralising oneupmanship played out on the pavement edge of shoreditch high street. As ever the real working class will look on, bemused.


it's very strange how you used to be very happy to hobnob with cw. and it's not like the people in cw now are vastly different from people in cw back in the day.


----------



## Nice one (Sep 3, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> Inaccurate. Gentrification most often starts when _locales_ are allowed to dilapidate beyond an "acceptable" standard. This often causes a "crush" on local social housing at the same time as it creates space in the local private housing market. One could somewhat accurately claim that much gentrification is a result of the destruction of most social solidarities between local authorities and their residents. This explains partially why gentrification, which was slllllloooooooooooooowwwwwwwwww in the '60s and '70s, accelerated with Thatcher, and continues to do so, with entire neighbourhoods being socially-cleansed in years, rather than decades. In fact in the last decade we've achieved the obscenity of local authorities openly colluding in social cleansing in order to bring about what they believe will be "beneficial" (to whom?) demographic change.



i don't think we are in conflict with each other, just looking at the trajectory at slightly different angles. The point of dilapidation beyond acceptable standard is when the squatters move in. Squatters were the the vanguard of the gentrification process of any area, closely followed by the 'creatives' and students. All these, being transient populations could put up with a lot more 'unacceptable' shit and yes have no need for "social solidarities between local authorities and their residents". 

Their role though was to begin to make any area 'safe' for redevelopment. This is the first of the middle class "buying in" to an area - culturally rather than financially. 

The "beneficial demographic change" you talk about are the middle class literally buying in to a gentrified area.


----------



## Nice one (Sep 3, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> it's very strange how you used to be very happy to hobnob with cw. and it's not like the people in cw now are vastly different from people in cw back in the day.



like a dog lying in the corner...


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 3, 2015)

Nice one said:


> like a dog lying in the corner...


perhaps you could expand on what you mean here, because it's by no means clear to me.

e2a: i see it's probably a reference to 'dog lying in the corner, will bite you but never warn you'. yeh, that's kind of how i feel about a lot of your posts. as far as i can see the class composition of cw isn't greatly different to what it used to be but you're now saying - as i don't believe you used to - that it's composed of self-hating middle class kids.


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 3, 2015)

I was under the impression that CW has no membership.


----------



## sihhi (Sep 3, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> i don't think a demonstration, which is what this is, is really equivalent to a crappy yuppie pop-up in shoreditch or elsewhere. in the latter case the proprietors are making a contribution to the gentrification of an area, frequently in premises formerly housing a business catering to the w/c residents of a neighbourhood.



As far as I understand *pop-up *means they are not owners merely retailers hiring a site - for a limited amount of time - from the owner (who has done the dirty by buying up the site from a formerly more w/c product-selling business).

If we're going to down the route of one small business good one small business bad, I don't understand the logic of: "We don't want your fucking hipster pop-ups. Go back to Hertfordshire. You aren't helpless bystanders in the class war - you're the problem"
because those old businesses (that were numerous in the 1980s or 1990s say) that catered to a w/class clientele often willingly sold their businesses to another owner/landlord.
then the w/c have themselves moved on because the area itself became less affordable with other landowners/landlords doing the same thing so that business model (cater to w/c base) is no longer affordable in that area makes no sense any more.

hipster pop-ups make sense in a hipster area that's the local bedrock retail it is, it's like targetting jewellry stores in bond street for not providing 12.99 wedding rings

unless the w/c can get more wages more money + more benefits the spiral will go on...  in my opinion the way the w/c can get more wages is* clear lines of class struggle *which means anyone who sells their labour for a living and doesn't rely on parents' landed or social capital wealth _*is on our side *_whether they like hammering nails in their bar or playing darts, prefer free tibet to free insurrectionists in mexico, have fancy beards or are clean-shaven, like techno or like peace and quiet is on one side, went to one sort of university or none, support manchester united from sussex or clapton from clapton... the differences within the w/c can only be overcome by upfront honesty in advance which is what i hope fuckparade will have given to residents in hackney for this party/protest/event.

there's an annual fuckparade in berlin through kreuzberg the majority of residents in the council housing there are (first gen rural-origin conservative, second gen 'apolitical' w/class) turks (small number of arabs) and i'm told it's like parallel worlds when the fuckparade passes through, like i said before i wish this well and hope the effort does good just airing some thoughts - this is a discussion board after all not simply event pinboard






PS I am not anti-Class war I'm not attacking Class war.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 3, 2015)

Nice one said:


> i don't think we are in conflict with each other, just looking at the trajectory at slightly different angles. The point of dilapidation beyond acceptable standard is when the squatters move in. Squatters were the the vanguard of the gentrification process of any area, closely followed by the 'creatives' and students. All these, being transient populations could put up with a lot more 'unacceptable' shit and yes have no need for "social solidarities between local authorities and their residents".
> 
> Their role though was to begin to make any area 'safe' for redevelopment. This is the first of the middle class "buying in" to an area - culturally rather than financially.
> 
> The "beneficial demographic change" you talk about are the middle class literally buying in to a gentrified area.



You're conflating two different types of gentrification, IMO.

Type 1 is "traditional" gentrification - the transition from "slums" to squats to boho "quarter" to "highly desirable to the middle classes" vibrancy to "branch of The Early Learning Centre on the high street" full-on "suburbia in the city". Yes, the middle class buy into it, and in 20-50 years time they'll start filtering back out toward the margins, as has happened before. While working class people are still alienated from their home turf by this form of gentrification, it's not total, and it's contingent on types and patterns of employment.

Type 2 is what some of us have been calling "hyper-gentrification", the commercially-driven accelerated gentrification of areas based on the retailing of the area's cultural history to those with enough money to buy into it, with the concomitant brutally-rapid displacement of locals and local culture for the _pastiche_ version being flogged by the estate agents and style mags. It's not nearly as contingent on employment as type 1, because so much is funded from accumulated capital, rather than from forms of traditional funding such as mortgage borrowing. 

Type 1 is bearable - it's a cyclic process that is historically-rooted. I think I've mentioned before that Jerry White, a historian of London, has attempted to map the cycle.
Type 2 isn't bearable, but it *is* the logical outcome of neoliberal economics - survival of the richest.


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 3, 2015)

Given the WC can be easily co-opted into the politics of division by playing them off against themselves backed up by media which instructs them who to blame, CW provides an interesting spectacle capable of turning heads in the other direction. I don't see many other left groups doing this.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Sep 3, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> Given the WC can be easily co-opted into the politics of division by playing them off against themselves backed up by media which instructs them who to blame, CW provides an interesting spectacle capable of turning heads in the other direction. I don't see many other left groups doing this.




Strange name for a political party though. Given that arguably the most committed and certainly the most effective class warrior of the past 35 years has been, ehrm, Thatcher.


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 3, 2015)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Strange name for a political party though. Given that arguably the most committed and certainly the most effective class warrior of the past 35 years has been, ehrm, Thatcher.



Which the name evidently illustrates, imo.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 4, 2015)

urbanspaceman said:


> "...Israeli scumbag property developers…"
> 
> Nice swerve there. Do you mean "Israelis" from Tel Aviv or Stamford Hill ?


what about these developers from the zionist entity? Public inquiry ordered after London pub's illegal demolition

btw it would be nice if you acknowledged when you'd cocked up


----------



## Nice one (Sep 4, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> You're conflating two different types of gentrification, IMO.
> 
> Type 1 is "traditional" gentrification - the transition from "slums" to squats to boho "quarter" to "highly desirable to the middle classes" vibrancy to "branch of The Early Learning Centre on the high street" full-on "suburbia in the city". Yes, the middle class buy into it, and in 20-50 years time they'll start filtering back out toward the margins, as has happened before. While working class people are still alienated from their home turf by this form of gentrification, it's not total, and it's contingent on types and patterns of employment.
> 
> ...



but both camden and shoreditch are the very traditional form of gentrification, your type 1. Class war are making a big play on the fact they don't want hipsters in their community. In fact i can't think of an area that has been run down where squatter/students/creatives weren't first in. 

Who is going to live in these type 2 gentrified areas?

But really you are arguing against your previous post.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 4, 2015)

Nice one said:


> but both camden and shoreditch are the very traditional form of gentrification, your type 1. Class war are making a big play on the fact they don't want hipsters in their community. In fact i can't think of an area that has been run down
> 
> Who is going to live in these type 2 gentrified areas?
> 
> But really you are arguing against your previous post.


i think that by any reasonable standard an area with an infestation of hipsters has been run down. there are fewer shops catering to working class locals. pubs are closed down or turned into playpens for hipsters. any nice new things in the area are aimed at hipsters. unless you like paying through the nose to drink yourself into oblivion, eating overpriced street food or buying shite fashion hipsters have brought nothing to e.g. shoreditch and taken a great deal away.


----------



## smokedout (Sep 5, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> Type 2 is what some of us have been calling "hyper-gentrification", the commercially-driven accelerated gentrification of areas based on the retailing of the area's cultural history to those with enough money to buy into it, with the concomitant brutally-rapid displacement of locals and local culture for the _pastiche_ version being flogged by the estate agents and style mags. It's not nearly as contingent on employment as type 1, because so much is funded from accumulated capital, rather than from forms of traditional funding such as mortgage borrowing.



This is what's happening round here (Catford/Lewisham).  There's been no squatters, no bohemians, its going straight from solidly working class to yuppies, not even anything to do with the area's cultural history, just that there's space and it's 20 mins to London Bridge and 10 to Canary Wharf on the DLR.  There's hundreds of posh flats going up in Lewisham Centre right now and not a hipster caf/social centre/gallery etc in sight, not even a Starbucks yet.  It's a property developer's coup and very different to what took place in Stoke Newington, Brixton etc_._


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 5, 2015)

smokedout said:


> This is what's happening round here (Catford/Lewisham).  There's been no squatters, no bohemians, its going straight from solidly working class to yuppies, not even anything to do with the area's cultural history, just that there's space and it's 20 mins to London Bridge and 10 to Canary Wharf on the DLR.  There's hundreds of posh flats going up in Lewisham Centre right now and not a hipster caf/social centre/gallery etc in sight, not even a Starbucks yet.  It's a property developer's coup and very different to what took place in Stoke Newington, Brixton etc_._



Isn't some of the new-build round Deptford being sold on a wispy connection to the old Naval yard and docks? I'm sure I remember having a good laugh at an SLP article that reckoned all the block names would be "nautically-themed". 

Brixton, I'd say, has suffered both forms of gentrification - both the more normal gradual gentrification that's as much to do with rational behaviour by people with small families and limited finances, as it with anything else (and yes that *is* facilitated by settlement by artists, squatters etc) *and *this high pressure, high price and exclusionary form of gentrification.

Out of interest, is much of the new-build around your way walled/gated?


----------



## Belushi (Sep 5, 2015)

smokedout said:


> There's hundreds of posh flats going up in Lewisham Centre right now and not a hipster caf/social centre/gallery etc in sight, not even a Starbucks yet.  It's a property developer's coup and very different to what took place in Stoke Newington, Brixton etc_._



Lewisham looks completely different when I pass on the train nowadays to how I remember it when I lived in SE London and there was just that Citi Bank building.


----------



## smokedout (Sep 5, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> Isn't some of the new-build round Deptford being sold on a wispy connection to the old Naval yard and docks? I'm sure I remember having a good laugh at an SLP article that reckoned all the block names would be "nautically-themed".
> 
> Brixton, I'd say, has suffered both forms of gentrification - both the more normal gradual gentrification that's as much to do with rational behaviour by people with small families and limited finances, as it with anything else (and yes that *is* facilitated by settlement by artists, squatters etc) *and *this high pressure, high price and exclusionary form of gentrification.
> 
> Out of interest, is much of the new-build around your way walled/gated?



yes, and to be fair deptford did have the artist/squatter thing going on but not lewisham or catford.  the estate agents came first, and then the posh new builds started going up, along with the rents

not much of it is gated, but parts of it, especially round the back of lewisham station are designed in a way that makes adjoining roads/walkways etc appear to be private property even though its still public right of way, so you feel like your trespassing when you walk through and people don't.


----------



## smokedout (Sep 5, 2015)

Belushi said:


> Lewisham looks completely different when I pass on the train nowadays to how I remember it when I lived in SE London and there was just that Citi Bank building.



gonna look even different soon, they're still on phase 1 I think


----------



## Nice one (Sep 5, 2015)

smokedout said:


> This is what's happening round here (Catford/Lewisham).  There's been no squatters, no bohemians, its going straight from solidly working class to yuppies, not even anything to do with the area's cultural history, just that there's space and it's 20 mins to London Bridge and 10 to Canary Wharf on the DLR.  There's hundreds of posh flats going up in Lewisham Centre right now and not a hipster caf/social centre/gallery etc in sight, not even a Starbucks yet.  It's a property developer's coup and very different to what took place in Stoke Newington, Brixton etc_._



are you talking new builds or gentrification? There's a massive difference. Do you have the locations?


----------



## smokedout (Sep 5, 2015)

new builds which are leading to gentrification, with the ever wiling help of lewisham council who keep trying to have a farmers market in the centre of catford.  Catford Pond is the main development round here, but there's lot of smaller ones, all of the space behind lewisham shopping centre, the station and down Lewisham Way.  this is what lewisham will look like soon


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 5, 2015)

smokedout said:


> yes, and to be fair deptford did have an artist/squatter thing going on but not lewisham or catford.  the estate agents came first, and then the posh new builds started going up, along with the rents
> 
> not much of it is gated, but parts of it, especially round the back of lewisham station are designed in a way that makes adjoining roads/walkways etc appear to be private property even though its still public right of way, so you feel like your trespassing when you walk through and people don't.



That happened at the Brockwell Development at Tulse Hill, too. Fortunately dog-walkers don't seem to mind feeling like trespassers!
It's also an old trick to nick land. IIRC if a right-of-way provably isn't used for a certain period, an owner of land adjoining it can petition the status and try to claim the land.


----------



## pocketscience (Sep 5, 2015)

smokedout said:


> new builds which are leading to gentrification, with the ever wiling help of lewisham council who keep trying to have a farmers market in the centre of catford.  Catford Pond is the main development round here, but there's lot of smaller ones, all of the space behind lewisham shopping centre, the station and down Lewisham Way.  this is what lewisham will look like soon


Mental!
Where's Catford Pond?
The only pond I can think of is Southend Pond at homebase (or peter pans pool for the seriously old school) and just cant imagine that as a development hotspot.
I would have thought Lewisham council has enough on it's hands with fucking Deptford up atm.


----------



## Belushi (Sep 5, 2015)

What happened to Catford Dogs? That was bought by developers to build flats but it seemed to remain derelict for years.


----------



## pocketscience (Sep 5, 2015)

Went past there on the train in April and from the little bit you can still see through the trees on the sidings, fuck all. Looked like it was still mostly brown field.


----------



## mauvais (Sep 5, 2015)

So forgive me for asking but how does this have more to do with oligarchs than the middle class?

On the face of it, Class War has become (twas ever thus?) a war against the peril of, err, farmers markets. Even by my standards that's not much of a war.

You could do a good line in slogans though.

UNSLICED BREAD / WE'LL SEE YOU DEAD
ARTISAN CHEESE / GET ON YOUR KNEES
FANCY JAM AND CHUTNEY / NO PLATFORM IN PUTNEY
etc, see?


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Sep 5, 2015)

Nice one said:


> are you talking new builds or gentrification? There's a massive difference.


Practically speaking, in London, there isn't. New builds are priced for gentrifiers. The latter comes after the former as... a thing that follows another thing comes after it, fuck's sake it's late.


----------



## smokedout (Sep 5, 2015)

pocketscience said:


> Mental!
> Where's Catford Pond?
> The only pond I can think of is Southend Pond at homebase (or peter pans pool for the seriously old school) and just cant imagine that as a development hotspot.
> I would have thought Lewisham council has enough on it's hands with fucking Deptford up atm.



sorry catford pond is a bus stop, I meant Catford Green which also isn't a real place just a made up name.  It's on the old dog track site and in between the train lines that go to the two stations, went up very quickly and people are in there already






Lewisham Council have spruced up and pedestrianised the area outside the town hall in expectation and taken over all the leases in the Catford Centre, presumably so the right kind of shop can be encouraged - they're moving too fast though, WH Smiths just closed and all they could find to replace it was a huge pound shop.  There's other smaller developments on Rushey Green and a couple (one very posh) in Ladywell, all the pubs and old shops that have been empty for ages seem to be being converted, its like a virus and rents seem to be shooting up as landlords refurbish in the hope of renting to yuppies.


----------



## pocketscience (Sep 6, 2015)

Catford Green...  Surprising the developers didn't go for a Surrey Docks to Surrey Quays type rebranding blag and call it "Feline Brook Pastures" to put another 50k on the price of a studio flat.


----------



## LDC (Sep 6, 2015)

mauvais said:


> So forgive me for asking but how does this have more to do with oligarchs than the middle class?
> 
> On the face of it, Class War has become (twas ever thus?) a war against the peril of, err, farmers markets. Even by my standards that's not much of a war.
> 
> ...



Class War is a slightly depressing sight now, it's the anarchist scene equivalent to the SWP now IMO. Once relevant, dynamic, and useful, but now just stuck in some cycle of ever more cliched and tragic activities with less people and less relevance to anyone outside their scene.

They're like a Viz caricature of anarchists. Bit sad.


----------



## Nice one (Sep 6, 2015)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Practically speaking, in London, there isn't. New builds are priced for gentrifiers. The latter comes after the former as... a thing that follows another thing comes after it, fuck's sake it's late.



yes and no. Gentrification is a process of displacing a traditional working class population with a wealthier middle class. The displacement bit is key. With Lewisham it looks like you are adding to the dominant working class population. In terms of town planning it looks like social engineering more than social cleansing. The regeneration of catford has been talked about for years apparently and it was only when Lewisham council bought Catford Shopping Centre in 2010 did things start to move.

If you look at camden town there are some of the poshest streets in london within a 2 two minute walk of camden tube. Further down you have regents park estate next to some of the most expensive property in london. Camden Market is essentially for tourists and not for the local population (lived 15 years in camden town never once went to camden market by choice).

But apparently only now is it being gentrified!

I think the development of catford will be interesting but it doesn't look like violent panda's type 2 gentrification. (And i don't know if 'hyper gentrification' is being conflated with 'super gentrification' - i could only find hyper gentrification being used as a kind of buzzword in reference to what's happening in Brixton currently, in a UK context).

My understanding of super gentrification is an area already gentrified but added to this a more concentrated and accelerated form of further gentrification where the newly arrived middle class are supplanted by a wealthy set (and the residual working class and small retailers who fought the initial wave of gentrification get permanently displaced).


----------



## kenny g (Sep 6, 2015)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Class War is a slightly depressing sight now, it's the anarchist scene equivalent to the SWP now IMO. Once relevant, dynamic, and useful, but now just stuck in some cycle of ever more cliched and tragic activities with less people and less relevance to anyone outside their scene.
> 
> They're like a Viz caricature of anarchists. Bit sad.



During which period were they more "relevant, dynamic and useful"? I reckon your comment is pretty much identical to ones I was hearing back in the late 80's / early 90's.

The poor doors campaign caught the mood bang on, the issue of poor doors is being raised with developers again and again in .. even in the FT Social housing in cities: who should build it — and where? - FT.com 

The campaign against the jack the ripper museum was picked up widely...

Ian Bone's observations on PPE Oxford infestation of the political class are nowadays common place.

I don't involve myself in Class War actions but I think you would be hard pressed to argue they are more irrelevant or cliched than in the past.


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 6, 2015)

I think Lynne is angling for contributions to her 'who will be punched at the Bookfair' thread.


----------



## smokedout (Sep 6, 2015)

Nice one said:


> yes and no. Gentrification is a process of displacing a traditional working class population with a wealthier middle class. The displacement bit is key. With Lewisham it looks like you are adding to the dominant working class population. In terms of town planning it looks like social engineering more than social cleansing. The regeneration of catford has been talked about for years apparently and it was only when Lewisham council bought Catford Shopping Centre in 2010 did things start to move.



People are being displaced.  Rents are rising, social housing is shrinking, businesses are closing.  It's very early days yet, and already the change in demographic is noticeable and being actively engineered - I heard some little estate agents shit saying to his mate the other day 'don't worry, we'll soon get rid of all these druggies and Jobcentre people'.  This is how it is has happened all over London, all the private sector rents soar, the only people left are in social housing which is gradually eaten away at, and the nature of the area changes to exclude the people who are still clinging on.  This did happen in Camden as well, although away from the High Street round Kentish Town/Gospel Oak and down towards Somerstown.   there was also an active programme of cleansing took place, around the time the cops killed Kebe Jobe, when they started to threaten rough sleepers with arrest, nicked all the dealers or anyone who looked like one etc and put pressure on a lot of the venues/businesses to either close or change radically.



> I think the development of catford will be interesting but it doesn't look like violent panda's type 2 gentrification. (And i don't know if 'hyper gentrification' is being conflated with 'super gentrification' - i could only find hyper gentrification being used as a kind of buzzword in reference to what's happening in Brixton currently, in a UK context).
> 
> My understanding of super gentrification is an area already gentrified but added to this a more concentrated and accelerated form of further gentrification where the newly arrived middle class are supplanted by a wealthy set (and the residual working class and small retailers who fought the initial wave of gentrification get permanently displaced).



Catford is being encircled by that, Ladywell, Brockley, Hither Green, Honour Oak all used to be the kind of places lower middle class families went to have kids, now they are being squeezed out as well.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 6, 2015)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Class War is a slightly depressing sight now, it's the anarchist scene equivalent to the SWP now IMO.



Minus the power-abusing rapist at the top.



> Once relevant, dynamic, and useful...



The Swappies? For the short periods when they did physical force anti-fascism, perhaps. The rest of the time they've been about as politically-dynamic as an arthritic poodle.



> ...but now just stuck in some cycle of ever more cliched and tragic activities with less people and less relevance to anyone outside their scene.
> 
> They're like a Viz caricature of anarchists. Bit sad.



TBF, the Viz caricature is too gentle.


----------



## isvicthere? (Sep 6, 2015)

editor said:


> A billionaire who's made his loot from property and the gambling industry. Ugh.



Not to mention a convicted fraudster who's done jail time.


----------



## ClassWar2015 (Sep 17, 2015)

kenny g said:


> During which period were they more "relevant, dynamic and useful"? I reckon your comment is pretty much identical to ones I was hearing back in the late 80's / early 90's.
> 
> The poor doors campaign caught the mood bang on, the issue of poor doors is being raised with developers again and again in .. even in the FT Social housing in cities: who should build it — and where? - FT.com
> 
> ...



......and we've pretty much put 'Poor Doors' into the political lexicon as Sadiq Khan has just been elected Labour London Mayor candidate and pledged to stop poor doors by the very term.


----------



## ClassWar2015 (Sep 17, 2015)

*Never Mind The Labour Party, Come To The Fucking Fuck Parade*
Posted on September 16, 2015 by johnny void | 20 Comments




If there’s one thing the British establishment hates more than Jeremy Corbyn it’s us.  From the corridors of power to the boardrooms in the city, they see our class as nothing more than mugs and scroungers who only exist to fatten their wallets.  Work hard and they’ll pat you on the head whilst picking your pocket with the other hand.  Refuse work and the punishment is economic destruction, with every avenue of survival ruthlessly shut down.  And if you can’t work, or find a job, then you will be destroyed as well, as a lesson to everyone else.  Don’t get sick, don’t complain, don’t ask for a pay rise, or you too could become a scrounger – a non-person to be bullied and tomented at will.

But beneath this seething contempt for the poor lies a terror that goes unspoken.  They know all too well that there is more of us than them, and that without our compliance the whole fucking game is up.  That in a heartbeat their mansions, and their assets, and their bank balances, could all disappear like smoke.  It has happened before.

So, as uncomfortable as they may find it, they would far rather tolerate a polite man asking difficult questions in parliament, than face a mob with pitchforks steaming down their leafy streets.  They will bluster and howl about extremism but they know all too well that if things become genuinely turbulent then the likes of Jeremy Corbyn may yet be their biggest chance of survival.  This has been the historic role of the Labour Party, to manage the wrath of the working class and fight on our behalf for things we don’t usually even want.

Whatever your views on recent events one thing is clear.  Escalation is now required on all fronts if we are to end, or even slow down, the onslaught on our living standards.  There will be no concessions to a movement that has no teeth.  Sitting around for five years on the off chance Labour might eventually save us is not an option.  No-one can save us, except us.

On Saturday 26th September Class War will be holding the third Fuck Parade, this time targetting gentrification in Shoreditch, a once working class area of London.  Meet outside Shoreditch Station from 7pm and please help spread the word by sharing the facebook page for the event.

Meanwhile this coming Saturday (19th September) A March Against Evictions is being held in Stratford, East London to mark the second anniversary of Focus E15 campaign.  Meet at Stratford Park, West Ham Lane, from noon, full details on facebook.

In October protests will be taking place in Manchester outside the Tory Party Conference.  I’ll get a seperate post up about these, but for now there’s details on DPAC’s website.


Never Mind The Labour Party, Come To The Fucking Fuck Parade


----------



## ClassWar2015 (Sep 17, 2015)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Class War is a slightly depressing sight now, it's the anarchist scene equivalent to the SWP now IMO. Once relevant, dynamic, and useful, but now just stuck in some cycle of ever more cliched and tragic activities with less people and less relevance to anyone outside their scene.
> 
> They're like a Viz caricature of anarchists. Bit sad.



Fuck off. That's utter tripe.

What the have you done recently that affords this sneery demeanour?


----------



## ClassWar2015 (Sep 18, 2015)

Some sick puppy has put the Fuck Parade flyer through Google Deep Dream.......give it a good look


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 18, 2015)

ClassWar2015 said:


> *Never Mind The Labour Party, Come To The Fucking Fuck Parade*
> Posted on September 16, 2015 by johnny void | 20 Comments
> 
> 
> ...



Odd bunch on the comments section.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Sep 19, 2015)

Get a box for Bigham to stand on so he can see over his banner you cruel twats...


----------



## ClassWar2015 (Sep 22, 2015)




----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 22, 2015)

You missed a trick - reclaim the beats not the beasts. (Tying in with the new porcine theme).


----------



## ClassWar2015 (Sep 25, 2015)

Last call for the Fuck Parade. I may be biased but it's looking proper.

We have several rigs coming and the main one is a sight to behold. There's going to be fire eaters, fireworks and all sorts of entertainment.

If the plod want to be dicks they will have several hundred angry and up for it revellers to deal with. If they let us party, that's what we'll do.


----------



## ClassWar2015 (Sep 27, 2015)

What a fucking night.


----------



## ska invita (Sep 27, 2015)

couldnt make this- hope there was carnage


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Sep 27, 2015)

Here's what the Standard had to say about it - Anti-gentrification protesters target cereal cafe and estate agent


----------



## ClassWar2015 (Sep 27, 2015)

ska invita said:


> couldnt make this- hope there was carnage



Cereal cafe owner tells of 'witch hunt' that pelted windows with paint

It was proper. Nearly fucked the rig before we got out the door but all was well.


----------



## ClassWar2015 (Sep 27, 2015)

Follow us on Twitter @FuckParadeLDN


----------



## ClassWar2015 (Sep 27, 2015)

This is the Death Machine v2.


----------



## ska invita (Sep 27, 2015)

beautiful!


----------



## ClassWar2015 (Sep 27, 2015)

On Buzzfeed.....
The Shoreditch Cereal Café Was Attacked By Anti-Gentrification Protesters


----------



## umop apisdn (Sep 27, 2015)

"There were children there – they were terrified. The staff were absolutely terrified. It was an angry mob throwing paint at the windows. They had torches and pigs’ heads."

You uncultured bunch of animals.


----------



## Mr Retro (Sep 27, 2015)

Wow the establishment are shitting themselves. They know now not to open another Cereal Bar or angry young men will write "scum" on the windows in black marker.

Why didn't ye attack the RBS offices in nearby Liverpool Street? Because ye'd have had the shit kicked out of you. Easier to attack a tiny shop on brick lane. What bunch of fucking clowns playing at taking on authority.


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 27, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> Wow the establishment are shitting themselves. They know now not to open another Cereal Bar or angry young men will write "scum" on the windows in black marker.
> 
> Why didn't ye attack the RBS offices in nearby Liverpool Street? Because ye'd have had the shit kicked out of you. Easier to attack a tiny shop on brick lane. What bunch of fucking clowns playing at taking on authority.



What are you doing about the onslaught against the poor besides sneering on a bulletin board?

Fuck all, that's what.


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 27, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> angry young men


I believe the womens death brigade were also in attendance? gender normative assumptioning there *wags finger*


----------



## mauvais (Sep 27, 2015)

I suppose the would-be organic chard merchants will be fearfully absent from their market stalls today. Take that, banks!


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Sep 27, 2015)

Cereal Cafe tweeted #hatecrime - bunch of cunts.


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 27, 2015)

Maybe hipsters will apply for oppressed minority status.


----------



## goldenecitrone (Sep 27, 2015)

The poor will sleep with full bellies tonight. #letthemeatgranola


----------



## ClassWar2015 (Sep 27, 2015)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Cereal Cafe tweeted #hatecrime - bunch of cunts.



 Brilliant


----------



## ClassWar2015 (Sep 27, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> Wow the establishment are shitting themselves. They know now not to open another Cereal Bar or angry young men will write "scum" on the windows in black marker.
> 
> Why didn't ye attack the RBS offices in nearby Liverpool Street? Because ye'd have had the shit kicked out of you. Easier to attack a tiny shop on brick lane. What bunch of fucking clowns playing at taking on authority.



You have no idea what last night was about.


----------



## Mr Retro (Sep 27, 2015)

ClassWar2015 said:


> You have no idea what last night was about.


It was all about posturing and not much else.


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 27, 2015)

Let the do nothing liberals have their little giggle.


----------



## grit (Sep 27, 2015)

ClassWar2015 said:


> You have no idea what last night was about.



I can appreciate the symbolism, and yes the CC crowd do look like cunts but from the reports it appears to be a drunken laugh rather than a significant statement.


----------



## ClassWar2015 (Sep 27, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> It was all about posturing and not much else.



Get back to ruffling your Guardian


----------



## ClassWar2015 (Sep 27, 2015)

grit said:


> I can appreciate the symbolism, and yes the CC crowd do look like cunts but from the reports it appears to be a drunken laugh rather than a significant statement.



You're missing the point.


----------



## grit (Sep 27, 2015)

ClassWar2015 said:


> You're missing the point.



Genuinely, can you help me understand it then?


----------



## cesare (Sep 27, 2015)

ClassWar2015 said:


> Get back to ruffling your Guardian


----------



## ClassWar2015 (Sep 27, 2015)

grit said:


> Genuinely, can you help me understand it then?



We're not here to spoon feed liberals.


----------



## grit (Sep 27, 2015)

ClassWar2015 said:


> We're not here to spoon feed liberals.



That's a pity.


----------



## prunus (Sep 27, 2015)

ClassWar2015 said:


> We're not here to spoon feed liberals.



What are you for?  Because if you're not for engaging people with your views (or 'spoon-feeding' as you term it) then you're pretty much pointless.  The embodiment of screaming into the void. An irrelevance, or at best a temporary entertainment for the type of people who like to attack those who can't fight back - oh yes, bullies.

So which is it? Bullies, irrelevant or will you engage?

Go on, spoon-feed me.


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 27, 2015)

False dichotomies.


----------



## paulhackett (Sep 27, 2015)

ClassWar2015 said:


> We're not here to spoon feed liberals.



Is that why you've taken their cereal away?


----------



## joustmaster (Sep 27, 2015)

goldenecitrone said:


> The poor will sleep with full bellies tonight. #letthemeatgranola


let the meat granola


----------



## grit (Sep 27, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> False dichotomies.



Boring platitudes.


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 27, 2015)

joustmaster said:


> let the meat granola


Soylent cereal is people!


----------



## Wolveryeti (Sep 27, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> What are you doing about the onslaught against the poor besides sneering on a bulletin board?
> 
> Fuck all, that's what.



How does writing 'scum' on their shop and scaring their punters help the poor?


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 27, 2015)

grit said:


> Boring platitudes.



How is me saying he presented a false dichotomy a 'boring platitude'? Care to expand on that?


----------



## TopCat (Sep 27, 2015)

Wolveryeti said:


> How does writing 'scum' on their shop and scaring their punters help the poor?


Seizing space and doing what the fuck you want is rather empowering.


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 27, 2015)

Wolveryeti said:


> How does writing 'scum' on their shop and scaring their punters help the poor?



Read the post you responded to again and point to where I said daubing graffiti on a shop window "helps the poor".


----------



## Wolveryeti (Sep 27, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> Read the post you responded to again and point to where I said daubing graffiti on a shop window "helps the poor".


Looked quite a lot like you were trying to shut down Mr Retro by suggesting he didnt have a right to comment as by your assumption he wasn't involved in the fightback against the 'onslaught on the poor'.

Unlike your beloved goons.


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 27, 2015)

Wolveryeti said:


> Looked quite a lot like you were trying to shut down Mr Retro by suggesting he didnt have a right to comment as by your assumption he wasn't involved in the fightback against the 'onslaught on the poor'.
> 
> Unlike your beloved goons.



If over-priced cereal defenders such as Mr Retro, and your good self, want to challenge my suggestion that you're do nothing wankers, then you're at Liberty to set us straight on that point whenever you're ready.


----------



## grit (Sep 27, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> How is me saying he presented a false dichotomy a 'boring platitude'? Care to expand on that?



It was a reference to class war's glib responses.


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 27, 2015)

grit said:


> It was a reference to class war's glib responses.



Right. Well quote them and not me when you mean to reply to them and not me.


----------



## fredfelt (Sep 27, 2015)

I could do with being spoon fed as to why this small independant business is being targeted.  

It riles me that our high streets have been taken over by UK PLC.  How lax controls on capital means that banks and corporate landlords make it increasingly difficult for people to be part of their community.  Massive rents mean that corporate chains usually dominate our high streets - they suck cash from the community, and in careful tax planning the money ends up in the hands of the owners and funders of the corporations.  There's no local benefit, no local input.  Just an efficient money making machine masterminded from faceless offices - devoid of any real character.

However there remain a few locally owned and operated businesses which are dong what they can to make a living from the high street and in their community.  To make a living there's no option but to react the the changing nature of the high street.  Without the financial advantage of operating from a corporation it's massively hard to compete with these faceless, tax dodging bastards.

The Cereal Killer cafe is undoubtedly a result of the gentrification process but they are far from the cause.  If anything the small, independent operator offers hope.  Hope that people can make a living without having to join the corporate race to the bottom.  Hope that people can live in, and find meaningful employment in their own community.  

It might be because I'm a die hard liberal but in my mind an economy based on local operators earning a living, where cash circulates locally is far better than a corporate economy where cash is stashed away to tax havens.


----------



## cesare (Sep 27, 2015)

That area was already full of small independents. Those ones have been forced out/eastwards by the City encroaching and replaced by a different set of independents that cater to the well off.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 27, 2015)

Wolveryeti said:


> How does writing 'scum' on their shop and scaring their punters help the poor?



Perhaps they'll reduce their prices?


----------



## ClassWar2015 (Sep 27, 2015)

Some great footage from last night........ Anti-gentrification protesters target Shoreditch's Cereal Killer  Cafe - video


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 27, 2015)

How many people living cheek by jowel on the local estates do you think can afford over three quid for a bowl of cereal? That's over nine fucking quid if they've got three kids they want to 'treat'. It completely embodies social cleansing.


----------



## ClassWar2015 (Sep 27, 2015)

.


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 27, 2015)

notice no champion arises to defend the honour of the estate agents windae


----------



## editor (Sep 27, 2015)

fredfelt said:


> The Cereal Killer cafe is undoubtedly a result of the gentrification process but they are far from the cause.  If anything the small, independent operator offers hope.


Can't say I'd feel much hope for my High Street if places like that took over the existing shops.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 27, 2015)

cesare said:


> That area was already full of small independents. Those ones have been forced out/eastwards by the City encroaching and replaced by a different set of independents that cater to the well off.



Exactly the same as is slowly happening throughout London and the south-east, and will eventually happen everywhere.
How long till we're back to the situation of povs having to knock on the grocer's side door, rather than use the main part of the shop, on account of upsetting the nicely-groomed _bourgeois_ customers there?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 27, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> How many people living cheek by jowel on the local estates do you think can afford over three quid for a bowl of cereal? That's over nine fucking quid if they've got three kids they want to 'treat'.



More graphically, it's 3 boxes of cereal, and if they're own-brand cereals, several days-worth of milk too. 



> It completely embodies social cleansing.


How could it not? You don't need a "No Dogs, No Gyppoes, No Locals" sign in your window in order to exclude, or even high prices, just the fact of a concept for your business that *aims* to be exclusive.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 27, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> notice no champion arises to defend the honour of the estate agents windae



The estate agents can eat my clinkers, the parasitic fuckwads.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 27, 2015)

editor said:


> Can't say I'd feel much hope for my High Street if places like that took over the existing shops.



It's happening right outside your window.


----------



## Wolveryeti (Sep 27, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> If over-priced cereal defenders such as Mr Retro, and your good self, want to challenge my suggestion that you're do nothing wankers, then you're at Liberty to set us straight on that point whenever you're ready.


It's cool, bro. Well-established fact that when poor people can't afford something in a shop they are in favour of vandalising it. This then improves the quality of their life.

I have some more targets for your goons: pubs. Have you seen how much more expensive a pint is compared with buying a tinny? Gentrifying bastards.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 27, 2015)

grit said:


> Genuinely, can you help me understand it then?


we can explain it to you, we cannot understand it for you


----------



## editor (Sep 27, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> It's happening right outside your window.


Yep. And the Shrub & Shutter cocktail bar is as much use to the council estate community that overlooks it as a trendy cereal store.


----------



## editor (Sep 27, 2015)

Wolveryeti said:


> It's cool, bro. Well-established fact that when poor people can't afford something in a shop they are in favour of vandalising it. This then improves the quality of their life.
> 
> I have some more targets for your goons: pubs. Have you seen how much more expensive a pint is compared with buying a tinny? Gentrifying bastards.


Why do you think the beers are so expensive? Any idea?


----------



## grit (Sep 27, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> we can explain it to you, we cannot understand it for you



Class war seems to disagree.


----------



## Wolveryeti (Sep 27, 2015)

editor said:


> Why do you think the beers are so expensive? Any idea?


Probably a very similar set of reasons to why CK charge 3 quid for a bowl of cereal. I imagine a lot of it comes down to the rent.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 27, 2015)

Wolveryeti said:


> It's cool, bro. Well-established fact that when poor people can't afford something in a shop they are in favour of vandalising it. This then improves the quality of their life.



It's not about improving the quality of your life, it's about reacting to something (in this case a shop) that is effectively giving you and yours the finger.



> I have some more targets for your goons: pubs. Have you seen how much more expensive a pint is compared with buying a tinny? Gentrifying bastards.



That's a poor comparison. Most pubs provide more than just booze and a place to consume it - they provide entertainment as well. Most pub drinkers acknowledge the higher cost and accept it on that basis.


----------



## salem (Sep 27, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> How many people living cheek by jowel on the local estates do you think can afford over three quid for a bowl of cereal? That's over nine fucking quid if they've got three kids they want to 'treat'. It completely embodies social cleansing.


Nonsense! Not everyone in the local estates is totally broke and less than a tenner to take 3 kids out for a treat is about as affordable as it gets. Maybe some of the locals appreciate being able to take the kids out for a treat that isn't a happy meal.

Maybe some of the young adults living locally appreciate there being somewhere they can pop into and relax in the evening that doesn't mean drinking alcohol. Probably cheaper too.

The place doesn't appeal much to me but there are many many more viable targets along Brick Lane then this place.

And Running around with pigs heads doesn't seem to be the best way to engage with the local community in an area that is famous for it's Bengali community.

On a more positive note, I did like this pic tweeted by TfL. Could be a recruiting tool. I especially like the 'white collar factory' text in the background.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 27, 2015)

Wolveryeti said:


> Probably a very similar set of reasons to why CK charge 3 quid for a bowl of cereal. I imagine a lot of it comes down to the rent.



Nope, it comes down to market economics - charge what the traffic can bear, and the more the traffic will bear, the better, hence the way such "adventurous" outlets take care in choosing their location.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Sep 27, 2015)

Thank fuck we don't have that gentrification nonsense up North. It'd just be smacked in the face with some coal and have the whippets and pigeons set on it.


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 27, 2015)

Wolveryeti said:


> It's cool, bro. Well-established fact that when poor people can't afford something in a shop they are in favour of vandalising it. This then improves the quality of their life.
> 
> I have some more targets for your goons: pubs. Have you seen how much more expensive a pint is compared with buying a tinny? Gentrifying bastards.



You think pubs are over-priced because they're slapping a 1000% profit on their products, or does tax have anything to do with it?


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 27, 2015)

Outraged liberal magnet, this thread.


----------



## Wolveryeti (Sep 27, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> It's not about improving the quality of your life, it's about reacting to something (in this case a shop) that is effectively giving you and yours the finger.


 Giving the finger how? By making a profit? I don't understand that mentality. I work in an area that sells stuff (mostly antiques) which I could never afford. I don't get why that's an insult I should tàke personally. It is a symptom of gross inequality but I don't think the right way to go about fixing that is intimidating shop owners.



ViolentPanda said:


> That's a poor comparison. Most pubs provide more than just booze and a place to consume it - they provide entertainment as well. Most pub drinkers acknowledge the higher cost and accept it on that basis.


You can sit down and have a chat with someone at the cereal place. You are paying for the surroundings there as well. I fail to see the difference.


----------



## Wolveryeti (Sep 27, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> Nope, it comes down to market economics - charge what the traffic can bear, and the more the traffic will bear, the better, hence the way such "adventurous" outlets take care in choosing their location.


Landlords have a fair sense of how much the market will bear too - and will set rents accordingly.


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 27, 2015)

Sit down next to a fellow hipster and discuss the prospect of opening a pop up burlesque club together.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 27, 2015)

Wolveryeti said:


> Landlords have a fair sense of how much the market will bear too - and will set rents accordingly.


----------



## editor (Sep 27, 2015)

Wolveryeti said:


> Landlords have a fair sense of how much the market will bear too - and will set rents accordingly.


Landlords? Fair? Hahahahahahahaha.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 27, 2015)

Wolveryeti said:


> Giving the finger how? By making a profit? I don't understand that mentality. I work in an area that sells stuff (mostly antiques) which I could never afford. I don't get why that's an insult I should tàke personally. It is a symptom of gross inequality but I don't think the right way to go about fixing that is intimidating shop owners.



Has the area you work in *suddenly* become an area that sells antiques, such that other shops with more utility for poorer locals like yourself have been driven out? If not,then your analogy wasn't worth the thought it took to write it.



> You can sit down and have a chat with someone at the cereal place. You are paying for the surroundings there as well. I fail to see the difference.



Perhaps because you're unable to differentiate between venues for eating, and venues for entertainment?


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 27, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> Outraged liberal magnet, this thread.


i think the collective noun is infestation. an infestation of outraged liberals.


----------



## editor (Sep 27, 2015)

Wolveryeti said:


> Giving the finger how? By making a profit? I don't understand that mentality. I work in an area that sells stuff (mostly antiques) which I could never afford. I don't get why that's an insult I should tàke personally. It is a symptom of gross inequality but I don't think the right way to go about fixing that is intimidating shop owners.
> 
> 
> You can sit down and have a chat with someone at the cereal place. You are paying for the surroundings there as well. I fail to see the difference.


You literally can't move for Hipster Cereal Cafe Pool teams, Hipster Cereal Cafe quiz nights, Hipster Cereal Cafe darts teams and I love it when they put on free live music and entertainment in the Hipster Cereal Cafe. And it's great they way they let OAPS sit there all night with just a half of bowl of rice crispies. Oh wait....


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 27, 2015)

S☼I said:


> Thank fuck we don't have that gentrification nonsense up North. It'd just be smacked in the face with some coal and have the whippets and pigeons set on it.



And a flat cap glued to its head.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 27, 2015)

Wolveryeti said:


> Landlords have a fair sense of how much the market will bear too - and will set rents accordingly.



Generally after the fact of gentrification, thus revealing that such traders make a rod for their own backs by gentrifying. Oh dear. How sad. Never mind, as far as they're concerned, but it fucks over local traders and their customers even further.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 27, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> Sit down next to a fellow hipster and discuss the prospect of opening a pop up burlesque club together.



Pasties for the pasty-faced generation.


----------



## Wolveryeti (Sep 27, 2015)

editor said:


> You literally can't move for Hipster Cereal Cafe Pool teams, Hipster Cereal Cafe quiz nights, Hipster Cereal Cafe darts teams and I love it when they put on free live music and entertainment in the Hipster Cereal Cafe. And it's great they way they let OAPS sit there all night with just a half of bowl of rice crispies. Oh wait....


What's your point? That they are not a charity? Neither are other businesses. Neither I bet, was the previous business they replaced.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 27, 2015)

editor said:


> You literally can't move for Hipster Cereal Cafe Pool teams, Hipster Cereal Cafe quiz nights, Hipster Cereal Cafe darts teams and I love it when they put on free live music and entertainment in the Hipster Cereal Cafe. And it's great they way they let OAPS sit there all night with just a half of bowl of rice crispies. Oh wait....



Quite. Pubs are (and have been historically, too) local social venues in a way that few cafes or restaurants (or cereal bars) will ever be.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 27, 2015)

Wolveryeti said:


> What's your point? That they are not a charity? Neither are other businesses. Neither I bet, was the previous business they replaced.



^^^^Not waving, but drowning.


----------



## salem (Sep 27, 2015)

editor said:


> You literally can't move for Hipster Cereal Cafe Pool teams, Hipster Cereal Cafe quiz nights, Hipster Cereal Cafe darts teams and I love it when they put on free live music and entertainment in the Hipster Cereal Cafe. And it's great they way they let OAPS sit there all night with just a half of bowl of rice crispies. Oh wait....


And there are heaps of bars along Brick Lane which don't have pool teams, quiz nights,darts teams and charge for entry when they have music on. They certainly wouldn't be very accommodating to a broke OAP either.


----------



## Dowie (Sep 27, 2015)

McDonalds must be chuffed that its cool to hate small businesses instead these days.

I'm guessing fried chicken chains, bookies and electrical stores offering credit at outrageous APR don't get targeted though... since they provide such a great service to the local community too.

Nah it is definitely 'hipsters' that need putting in their place, well done to the protesters I'm sure you'll change a lot...


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 27, 2015)

Wolveryeti said:


> What's your point? That they are not a charity? Neither are other businesses. Neither I bet, was the previous business they replaced.


oh fuck off. i bet the business they replaced actually served the local community rather than lining their pockets off the backs of hipster tourists.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Sep 27, 2015)

Why do you hate champagne and...

...oh, sorry, wrong thread


----------



## Wolveryeti (Sep 27, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> oh fuck off. i bet the business they replaced actually served the local community rather than lining their pockets off the backs of hipster tourists.


What if (as is more than likely) the local community contains hipsters who want to pay for overpriced cereal? Or do their views not count?


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 27, 2015)

Wolveryeti said:


> Landlords have a fair sense of how much the market will bear too - and will set rents accordingly.



and the problem comes when the market will bear what is a lot more than even a third of the average wage thusly pricing people out. Not just london where this happens either, it just gets more coverage in that there. Most big towns and cities will have over the years seen some it. In slo-mo for the big towns praps. I'd have left the cereal prats to it but the estate agents was a fair hit.


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 27, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> oh fuck off. i bet the business they replaced actually served the local community rather than lining their pockets off the backs of hipster tourists.


----------



## Dowie (Sep 27, 2015)

they actually threw in a smoke grenade when a bunch of people were inside???

That sort of 'protest' is only ever going to attract a minority of irrelevant tossers with stuff like that...


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 27, 2015)

Dowie said:


> they actually threw in a smoke grenade when a bunch of people were inside???
> 
> That sort of 'protest' is only ever going to attract a minority of irrelevant tossers with stuff like that...



This thread has attracted loads of irrelevant tossers.


----------



## cantsin (Sep 27, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> Wow the establishment are shitting themselves. They know now not to open another Cereal Bar or angry young men will write "scum" on the windows in black marker.
> 
> Why didn't ye attack the RBS offices in nearby Liverpool Street? Because ye'd have had the shit kicked out of you. Easier to attack a tiny shop on brick lane. What bunch of fucking clowns playing at taking on authority.



what would attacking RBS in Lpool St have had to do with Gentrification in Shoreditch ?


----------



## Dowie (Sep 27, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> This thread has attracted loads of irrelevant tossers.



well it was started by one to be fair...


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 27, 2015)

Wolveryeti said:


> What if (as is more than likely) the local community contains hipsters who want to pay for overpriced cereal? Or do their views not count?


so you're suggesting hipsters actively want to be ripped off. you may know more of the hipster community than i, but i think you are talking out your arse.


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 27, 2015)

Dowie said:


> well it was started by one to be fair...



You know that poster?


----------



## Dowie (Sep 27, 2015)

cantsin said:


> what would attacking RBS in Lpool St have had to do with Gentrification in Shoreditch ?



what does a cereal bar have to do with it either - they don't seem to charge any more than a kebab shop and are cheaper than a curry house... 

perhaps a building development or an estate agency might be more in line with what you're actually protesting about?


----------



## Dowie (Sep 27, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> You know that poster?


nope, do you know the various people you're referring to as 'irrelevant tossers'?


----------



## xes (Sep 27, 2015)

Dowie said:


> they actually threw in a smoke grenade when a bunch of people were inside???
> 
> That sort of 'protest' is only ever going to attract a minorty of irrelevant tossers with stuff like that...


When people are really fighting for their homes and livlihoods, it's going to get a bit feisty. And let's be honest, a smoke bomb is hardly going to scar someone for life. People call for action, they say 'oh, nothing ever gets done about all the wrongs in the world' and when some people start to actually do something, they are demonised for having the balls to stand up and try. When it's more roudy, there will always be a divide in opinion in how things should have gone, but I see the point in making a big impact with a fairly small demo when it's peoples homes at stake. 

Fair play to the Class War people, I hope the attendance to your protests reach that of Berlin. Look forward to being able to make it up to one of these soon.


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 27, 2015)

Dowie said:


> nope, do you know the various people you're referring to as 'irrelevant tossers'?



I know that they've outed themselves as whinging liberals. I don't even know if the op is involved with class war or not. It could be anyone.


----------



## Dowie (Sep 27, 2015)

xes said:


> When people are really fighting for their homes and livlihoods, it's going to get a bit feisty. And let's be honest, a smoke bomb is hardly going to scar someone for life.



if it sets a cafe full of people on fire then it could do more than just scar them.... it was a really dumb thing to do



> People call for action, they say 'oh, nothing ever gets done about all the wrongs in the world' and when some people start to actually do something, they are demonised for having the balls to stand up and try.



they're criticised because they just attacked a small business full of people they don't know anything about, it is a fucking stupid thing to do that only a tiny number of people are likely to agree with


----------



## xes (Sep 27, 2015)

Dowie said:


> if it sets a cafe full of people on fire then it could do more than just scar them.... it was a really dumb thing to do
> 
> 
> 
> they're criticised because they just attacked a small business full of people they don't know anything about, it is a fucking stupid thing to do that only a tiny number of people are likely to agree with


They're attacking businesses like that because they themselves have been attacked by what those businesses represent. and a smoke 'grenade' won't start a fire in a cafe, unless it had lots of dry grass all over the floor. Let's not sensationalise it as some grand attempted murder charge.


----------



## Dowie (Sep 27, 2015)

xes said:


> They're attacking businesses like that because they themselves have been attacked by what those businesses represent. and a smoke 'grenade' won't start a fire in a cafe, unless it had lots of dry grass all over the floor.



or maybe wallpaper, soft furnishings or table cloths etc..



> Let's not sensationalise it as some grand attempted murder charge.



I'm not - I'm saying it was a stupid thing to do, I'm not crediting the fuckwit who did it with thinking through the potential consequences of throwing a smoke grenade into a confined space full of people.


----------



## Wolveryeti (Sep 27, 2015)

A new shop is opening on my street. I will be holding a Residents Inquisition to establish how many social events for OAPs those capitalist pigs are planning to hold per day. Also, they will be forced to sell their products at below cost price to ensure that they are affordable to all. Tourists from surrounding areas will be discouraged with torches and pitchforks.


----------



## cantsin (Sep 27, 2015)

Dowie said:


> what does a cereal bar have to do with it either - they don't seem to charge any more than a kebab shop and are cheaper than a curry house...
> 
> perhaps a building development or an estate agency might be more in line with what you're actually protesting about?



wasn't there/am not 100 % sure how useful / effective the CKC was as a target (who is / how wld it be measured ? )	- but i think you'd have to have a serious lack of imagination / perspective to not see  how / why it became a target for bods out for what looked like half anti gentrification protest / half having a non expensive laugh on saturday night ( which is almost impossible to find around there nowadays ) .

_"The whole of his life is beyond his control, and for all he sees of the world he might as well be on another planet... he likes to feel he is a Bohemian at heart; but he clings to his false and degraded version of individual revolt. His rent-a-crowd militancy for the latest good cause is an aspect of his real impotence... he does have marginal freedoms; a small area of liberty which as yet escapes the totalitarian control of the Spectacle; his flexible working hours permit adventure and experiment. But he is a sucker for punishment and freedom scares him to death……He is quite happy with this open prison organised for his benefit... The real poverty of his everyday life finds its immediate phantastic compensation in the opium of cultural commodities... he is obliged to discover modern culture as an admiring spectator... he thinks he is avant-garde if he's seen the latest Godard or 'participated' in the latest 'happening'. He discovers modernity as fast as the market can provide it: for him every rehash of ideas is a cultural revolution. His principal concern is status, and he eagerly snaps up all the paperback editions of important and 'difficult' texts with which mass culture has filled the bookstore. Unfortunately, he cannot read, so he devours them with his gaze…"_

Mustapha Omar Khayatti,Strasbourg,1966.


----------



## Dowie (Sep 27, 2015)

cantsin said:


> wasn't there/am not 100 % sure how useful / effective the CKC was as a target (who is / how wld it be measured ? )	- but i think you'd have to have a serious lack of imagination / perspective to not see  how / why it became a target for bods out for what looked like half anti gentrification protest / half having a non expensive laugh on saturday night ( which is almost impossible to find around there nowadays ) .



well it seems to be frequented by people who might fall into the 'hipster' stereotype I guess, I mean the owners of it seem to have beards and dress a certain way

tis like when right wing types go and attack a mosques in response to some Islamist incident - it is just a dumb reactionary attack carried out by morons

oh they look like the sort of people we don't like, lets attack it


----------



## xes (Sep 27, 2015)

Dowie said:


> well it seems to be frequented by people who might fall into the 'hipster' stereotype I guess, I mean the owners of it seem to have beards and dress a certain way
> 
> tis like when right wing types go and attack a mosques in response to some Islamist incident - it is just a dumb reactionary attack carried out by morons
> 
> oh they look like the sort of people we don't like, lets attack it


Yes, social clensing can be simplified to not liking people with beards


----------



## Dowie (Sep 27, 2015)

xes said:


> Yes, social clensing can be simplified to not liking people with beards



what does attacking a cafe have to do with 'social cleansing'?


----------



## xes (Sep 27, 2015)

Dowie said:


> what does attacking a cafe have to do with 'social cleansing'?


As has been said, many, many times before. It can be explained to you, but it can't be understood for you. And it has been explained many times over on this thread.


----------



## Dowie (Sep 27, 2015)

xes said:


> As has been said, many, many times before. It can be explained to you, but it can't be understood for you. And it has been explained many times over on this thread.



and that is why this sort of stuff is only ever likely to attract a minority of idiots...


----------



## xes (Sep 27, 2015)

Dowie said:


> and that is why this sort of stuff is only ever likely to attract a minority of idiots...


WHy, because you fail to grasp a simple concept? That's why these protests will only ever attract idiots? Okey dokey


----------



## Dowie (Sep 27, 2015)

xes said:


> WHy, because you fail to grasp a simple concept? That's why these protests will only ever attract idiots? Okey dokey



What simple concept...

oh look those people have beards and dress differently?

Yes protests that involve attacking small businesses like that are only going to attract a small number of idiots - there is no popular support for that sort of crap... throwing smoke grenades into a cafe full of people etc..


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 27, 2015)

Dowie said:


> McDonalds must be chuffed that its cool to hate small businesses instead these days.
> 
> I'm guessing fried chicken chains, bookies and electrical stores offering credit at outrageous APR don't get targeted though... since they provide such a great service to the local community too.
> 
> Nah it is definitely 'hipsters' that need putting in their place, well done to the protesters I'm sure you'll change a lot...



Oh look, another ill-considered Dowie post! There's a surprise!


----------



## xes (Sep 27, 2015)

Dowie said:


> What simple concept...
> 
> oh look those people have beards and dress differently?


'oh look those people have beards and dress differently, and have moved in to our homes, pricing us out of where we grew up by raising rents and charging phenominal prices for their product, making stupid rich people think that this is the place to be because stuff is far too expensive for poor people, that's why they all had to go and live 'somewhere else'.

Fuck you. You're either a troll, or stupid. I'm not here to play with you.


----------



## Dowie (Sep 27, 2015)

xes said:


> 'oh look those people have beards and dress differently, and have moved in to our homes, pricing us out of where we grew up by raising rents and charging phenominal prices for their product, making stupid rich people think that this is the place to be because stuff is far too expensive for poor people, that's why they all had to go and live 'somewhere else'.
> 
> Fuck you. You're either a troll, or stupid. I'm not here to play with you.



how do you know that the people with beards in the hipster cafe people are the same people who've priced you out of 'your' area?

tis the same mentality as the idiots who attack mosques in response to Islamist attacks - oh look they've got beards and look like the people we don't like...

fuck you too if you think that sort of thing is justifiable


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 27, 2015)

Dowie said:


> if it sets a cafe full of people on fire then it could do more than just scar them.... it was a really dumb thing to do



It's a smoke grenade. They contain non-volatile, non-toxic chemicals, and the smoke is generated through a chemical reaction, not through burning. Any venue with the potential to ignite from a smoke grenade would have been unfit for use.


----------



## Mr Retro (Sep 27, 2015)

Been humming Eaton Rifles all day. Not sure why


----------



## stethoscope (Sep 27, 2015)

You know, upwardly-mobile 'entrepreneurs' with access to capital, instead of buying boxes of cereal at wholesale prices then setting up an exclusive little café selling a bowl of it for a fiver, in one of the poorest parts of London, they could actually do something a bit more beneficial for the community they'd moved into. And I don't mean just pushing up property prices. Just a thought.

And this reducing it to 'people who look a certain way' is the most bullshit argument I ever see on these things.


----------



## Dowie (Sep 27, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> It's a smoke grenade. They contain non-volatile, non-toxic chemicals, and the smoke is generated through a chemical reaction, not through burning. Any venue with the potential to ignite from a smoke grenade would have been unfit for use.



it is a very hot exothermic reaction that can easily set stuff on fire, it could set plenty of places on fire and it is fucking stupid to throw it into an enclosed space with a bunch of people in, tis rather dumb to try and justify it with 'oh but its a chemical reaction not burning'


----------



## Dowie (Sep 27, 2015)

stethoscope said:


> You know, rather than upwardly-mobile 'entrepreneurs' with access to capital, buying boxes of cereal at wholesale prices then setting up an exclusive little café selling a bowl of it for a fiver, in one of the poorest parts of London, they could actually do something a bit more beneficial for the community they'd moved into.



presumably so could people who buy cheap chicken and fry it up or people who buy kebab meat etc.. or just about anyone operating a food business?


----------



## stethoscope (Sep 27, 2015)

Dowie said:


> presumably so could people who buy cheap chicken and fry it up or people who buy kebab meat etc.. or just about anyone operating a food business?



The dynamics don't work like that with chicken or kebab takeaways - that's the point.


----------



## Dowie (Sep 27, 2015)

stethoscope said:


> The dynamics don't work like that with chicken or kebab takeaways - that's the point.



what 'dynamics'? There are plenty of people out there who've done pretty well out of fast food businesses.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 27, 2015)

xes said:


> They're attacking businesses like that because they themselves have been attacked by what those businesses represent. and a smoke 'grenade' won't start a fire in a cafe, unless it had lots of dry grass all over the floor. Let's not sensationalise it as some grand attempted murder charge.



Even a home-made smoke grenade won't set fire to anything except dry tinder. I know,'cos I made a few in my youth for the lols. The container gets hot from the chemical reaction - hot enough to burn a hand holding it - but it's highly unlikely to cause ignition unless some careless cunt has left oily rags and dry grass lying around, and even then it's still unlikely.


----------



## Mr Retro (Sep 27, 2015)

If I was in there with my kids and some brave class warrior threw a smoke grenade into the cafe they wouldn't do it again. They'd have more pressing things on their mind


----------



## stethoscope (Sep 27, 2015)

Dowie said:


> what 'dynamics'?



The dynamics of what happens in areas when they are gentrified.


----------



## cantsin (Sep 27, 2015)

Dowie said:


> how do you know that the people with beards in the hipster cafe people are the same people who've priced you out of 'your' area?
> 
> tis the same mentality as the idiots who attack mosques in response to Islamist attacks - oh look they've got beards and look like the people we don't like...
> 
> fuck you too if you think that sort of thing is justifiable



you honestly don't acknowledge the ( very well established ) connection between hipsters ( "the shocktroops of gentrification ") and gentrification ?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 27, 2015)

Wolveryeti said:


> A new shop is opening on my street. I will be holding a Residents Inquisition to establish how many social events for OAPs those capitalist pigs are planning to hold per day. Also, they will be forced to sell their products at below cost price to ensure that they are affordable to all. Tourists from surrounding areas will be discouraged with torches and pitchforks.



If I give you some old clothes, you could make a scarecrow from your straw man.


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 27, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> If I was in there with my kids and some brave class warrior threw a smoke grenade into the cafe they wouldn't do it again. They'd have more pressing things on their mind


because you would hulk out


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 27, 2015)

xes said:


> 'oh look those people have beards and dress differently, and have moved in to our homes, pricing us out of where we grew up by raising rents and charging phenominal prices for their product, making stupid rich people think that this is the place to be because stuff is far too expensive for poor people, that's why they all had to go and live 'somewhere else'.
> 
> Fuck you. You're either a troll, or stupid. I'm not here to play with you.



Or both.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 27, 2015)

Dowie said:


> how do you know that the people with beards in the hipster cafe people are the same people who've priced you out of 'your' area?
> 
> tis the same mentality as the idiots who attack mosques in response to Islamist attacks - oh look they've got beards and look like the people we don't like...
> 
> fuck you too if you think that sort of thing is justifiable



It's not the same mentality at all.


----------



## cantsin (Sep 27, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> If I was in there with my kids and some brave class warrior threw a smoke grenade into the cafe they wouldn't do it again. They'd have more pressing things on their mind



uh, oh,intwerweb vigilante hero on the loose


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 27, 2015)

Dowie said:


> it is a very hot exothermic reaction that can easily set stuff on fire, it could set plenty of places on fire and it is fucking stupid to throw it into an enclosed space with a bunch of people in, tis rather dumb to try and justify it with 'oh but its a chemical reaction not burning'



Have you ever been up close to a smoke grenade? They burn hot enough to mark a bare hand, sure. Then again, I've held standard issue smoke grenades wearing standard issue woollen gloves, and my gloves didn't ignite or even smoulder. You're whipping up a moral panic about smoke grenades based on a series of what-ifs and hyperbole about "can easily set stuff on fire". The fact is that it *can't* "easily set" anything afire. You'd need a chain of poor management and hygiene, plus the luck of Job for there to be even a chance of ignition.


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 27, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> If I was in there with my kids and some brave class warrior threw a smoke grenade into the cafe they wouldn't do it again. They'd have more pressing things on their mind



Internet hard men?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 27, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> If I was in there with my kids and some brave class warrior threw a smoke grenade into the cafe they wouldn't do it again. They'd have more pressing things on their mind



You whining about how you weren't going to get your money-worth from the bowls of cereal, or are you an internet hardman who'd have seen the ruffians off?


----------



## SpamMisery (Sep 27, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> Have you ever been up close to a smoke grenade? They burn hot enough to mark a bare hand, sure. Then again, I've held standard issue smoke grenades wearing standard issue woollen gloves, and my gloves didn't ignite or even smoulder. You're whipping up a moral panic about smoke grenades based on a series of what-ifs and hyperbole about "can easily set stuff on fire". The fact is that it *can't* "easily set" anything afire. You'd need a chain of poor management and hygiene, plus the luck of Job for there to be even a chance of ignition.



I set my grandads shed on fire with a couple of over the counter smoke bombs.

A mighty blow has been struck against the cereal eaters of London.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 27, 2015)

stethoscope said:


> The dynamics of what happens in areas when they are gentrified.



Perhaps Dowie is fortunate enough not to have his nose rubbed in the dynamics of gentrification daily, or perhaps he's a gentrifier himself - I've noticed that such people have a *very* hard time understanding the harm they cause.


----------



## cantsin (Sep 27, 2015)

response to last night on a football related forum elsewhere : 

"they want to 'reclaim' the area.
I have no issue with that.
Brasses all around Spitalfields, Commercial & Fashion St.
Tens Bells, White, Browns, Crown & Shuttle, Ye Olde Axe to name but a few with strippers going around with pint pots.
PettiCoat Lane market with stalls selling steaming salt beef rolls.
Watching through the window as the old Jewish butchers slaughter chickens .
The Big Red Building in Pett.....
Getting a deal on sheepskin or a leather box jacket.
The Last Resort off down to blackmans to get a new pair of d.m's ... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




buy some razor blades of the deaf n dumb bloke on the corner of brick lane !!
stop in the pub on the way home as its sunday lunchtime.. cheese n biscuits and cockles and shrimps on the bar.. followed up by fluffy roast tatties."

not saying many out last night would be able to relate directlyto the above ( or that there wasn't much more challenging stuff to follow on that thread re: Bengalis etc ) , but the folk-memory of what the area once was remains - easy to see CKC as some kind of bearded pisstake in the face of all that.


----------



## Dowie (Sep 27, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> Have you ever been up close to a smoke grenade? They burn hot enough to mark a bare hand, sure. Then again, I've held standard issue smoke grenades wearing standard issue woollen gloves, and my gloves didn't ignite or even smoulder. You're whipping up a moral panic about smoke grenades based on a series of what-ifs and hyperbole about "can easily set stuff on fire". The fact is that it *can't* "easily set" anything afire. You'd need a chain of poor management and hygiene, plus the luck of Job for there to be even a chance of ignition.



yawn

Smoke grenade - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



> Typical design consists of a sheet steel cylinder with four emission holes on top and one on the bottom to allow smoke release when the grenade is ignited. The filler consists of 250 to 350 grams of colored (red, green, orange, gray, yellow, blue, white, black, or violet) smoke composition (mostly potassium chlorate, lactose, and a dye). The reaction is exothermic and though they remain intact, *smoke grenade casings will often remain scalding hot for some time even after the grenade is no longer emitting smoke. Although modern smoke grenades are designed not to directly emit fire or sparks, they remain a fire hazard and are capable of igniting dry vegetation or flammable substances if used injudiciously.*


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 27, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> I set my grandads shed on fire with a couple of over the counter smoke bombs.
> 
> A mighty blow has been struck against the cereal eaters of London.



A smoke bomb is a firework that uses inflammable material. A smoke grenade uses a confined chemical reaction that generates no sparks.


----------



## gosub (Sep 27, 2015)

Dowie said:


> how do you know that the people with beards in the hipster cafe people are the same people who've priced you out of 'your' area?



so the £3.20 people are spending on a bowl of cornflakes, comes from savings on razor blades


----------



## Dowie (Sep 27, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> Perhaps Dowie is fortunate enough not to have his nose rubbed in the dynamics of gentrification daily, or perhaps he's a gentrifier himself - I've noticed that such people have a *very* hard time understanding the harm they cause.



Yes I'm afraid sometimes I do eat cereal. I'm sorry I can't empathize with the trauma faced by someone living in an area where  a cafe has opened up selling cereal.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 27, 2015)

Dowie said:


> yawn
> 
> Smoke grenade - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Read your own wiki C & P, eejit. It doesn't stand up your fatuous claim that a smoke grenade can *"easily"* (your word,remember) start a fire.


----------



## Dowie (Sep 27, 2015)

gosub said:


> so the £3.20 people are spending on a bowl of cornflakes, comes from savings on razor blades



perhaps, but it is outrageous that people should sell cereal at such prices when for similar prices you can get some battery farmed chicken fried up in a load of transfats... just think, if it wasn't for those beardy types yet another fried chicken shop could be providing a valuable service to the local community


----------



## SpamMisery (Sep 27, 2015)

Fair enough

This thread made me think of this:


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 27, 2015)

Dowie said:


> Yes I'm afraid sometimes I do eat cereal. I'm sorry I can't empathize with the trauma faced by someone living in an area where  a cafe has opened up selling cereal.



Who mentioned you eating cereal? If you're having to scrape the barrel *that* hard in order to find a reply, perhaps you shouldn't bother, so as to not look more of an arse than you already do?


----------



## Dowie (Sep 27, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> Who mentioned you eating cereal? If you're having to scrape the barrel *that* hard in order to find a reply, perhaps you shouldn't bother, so as to not look more of an arse than you already do?



I'm sure people trying to defend the attack on a cereal cafe don't look like arses at all...

perhaps you can pretend you don't if you've got a little group of like minded buddies but in a wider context not many people support that sort of thing


----------



## cantsin (Sep 27, 2015)

Dowie said:


> perhaps, but it is outrageous that people should sell cereal at such prices when for similar prices you can get some battery farmed chicken fried up in a load of transfats... just think, if it wasn't for those beardy types yet another fried chicken shop could be providing a valuable service to the local community



 or more likely,  other bearded hipsters wld open a "social enterprise"  fried chicken shop just to really confuse everyone : 
: The fried food joint that’s trying to tackle teenage obesity


----------



## joustmaster (Sep 27, 2015)

£2.50 for a bowl of cereal in a cafe doesn't sound too bad, to me


----------



## Wolveryeti (Sep 27, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> Perhaps Dowie is fortunate enough not to have his nose rubbed in the dynamics of gentrification daily, or perhaps he's a gentrifier himself - I've noticed that such people have a *very* hard time understanding the harm they cause.


Yep. As systemic violence goes, a cafe where you can sit down and have a bowl of cereal that's cheaper than a pint is basically Nazi Germany with more facial hair. HATE CRIME.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 27, 2015)

Dowie said:


> I'm sure people trying to defend the attack on a cereal cafe don't look like arses at all...
> 
> perhaps you can pretend you don't if you've got a little group of like minded buddies but in a wider context not many people support that sort of thing



No-one has claimed that many people support "that sort of thing". That's a straw man you or a similarly-minded person introduced.
Try to actually engage with facts rather than arguing from the basis of "what Dowie wishes had been said".


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 27, 2015)

joustmaster said:


> £2.50 for a bowl of cereal in a cafe doesn't sound too bad, to me



Depends on the size of the bowl, surely?


----------



## joustmaster (Sep 27, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> Depends on the size of the bowl, surely?


Thats the small size. The large is £3.50.

Still seems reasonable if that's all the cafe sells.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 27, 2015)

cantsin said:


> or more likely,  other bearded hipsters wld open a "social enterprise"  fried chicken shop just to really confuse everyone :
> : The fried food joint that’s trying to tackle teenage obesity



Perhaps a "West Indian"-themed fried chicken shop selling "genuine recipe" Caribbean fried chicken, with rice and peas on the side?


----------



## Wolveryeti (Sep 27, 2015)

joustmaster said:


> £2.50 for a bowl of cereal in a cafe doesn't sound too bad, to me


Not the right answer, my friend. It is a Dickensian nightmare.


----------



## hipipol (Sep 27, 2015)

sim667 said:


> Will there be a jellied eel and pie & mash stall?


I can put a word in for Kelly's on the Bethnal Green Road, just round the corner, where you can lay yer mits on 2 pies, mash, liquor and cup of tea for the same price as a bowl of cereal on breaking windows lane
It has the added advantage of never having any trendy loose beard hairs decorating yer dinner.......


----------



## Dowie (Sep 27, 2015)

Wolveryeti said:


> Yep. As systemic violence goes, a cafe where you can sit down and have a bowl of cereal that's cheaper than a pint is basically Nazi Germany with more facial hair. HATE CRIME.



well it obviously must be protested against because it is run by 'hipsters' with beards and stuff - we don't want people who look like that coming into the area

other food places get a free pass though


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 27, 2015)

joustmaster said:


> Thats the small size. The large is £3.50.
> 
> Still seems reasonable if that's all the cafe sells.



To me,reasonable would be about 100g dry weight of cereal for the "small" portion, and 150g for the large, plus all the milk and sugar you want. I suspect that the actual dry-weight portions are about half that size, given the photos posted on the thread about this cafe a couple of years ago, though. 

And yes, I *am* a three shredded wheat type of person.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 27, 2015)

hipipol said:


> I can put a word in for Kelly's on the Bethnal Green Road, just round the corner, where you can lay yer mits on 2 pies, mash, liquor and cup of tea for the same price as a bowl of cereal on breaking windows lane
> It has the added advantage of never having any trendy loose beard hairs decorating yer dinner.......



The problem with full-on neckbeards is that they moult like fuck unless you brush them mercilessly 3 or 4  times a day.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 27, 2015)

Wolveryeti said:


> Yep. As systemic violence goes, a cafe where you can sit down and have a bowl of cereal that's cheaper than a pint is basically Nazi Germany with more facial hair. HATE CRIME.



It's good to see that you realise that your argument is so bereft of quality that you have to resort to gibbering nonsense.


----------



## salem (Sep 27, 2015)

And yet the closest thing to an argument why targeting this place rather then one of the many expensive bars along the road is some dewy eyed bollocks about dart boards and OAPs sitting staring into half a pint for the evening


----------



## Gromit (Sep 27, 2015)

I've said on the other thread but i'll say it here:

Anyone who thinks charging soo much for cereal is a gentrification issue is talking hypocritical bullshit if they have ever bought a coffee when out or a take away pizza as they themselves have already paid over the odds for something they could have made at home for a fraction of the cost.

However I couldn't have 100 of their 120 cereals at my home because i don't have a clue how to get hold of them in the UK and it would no doubt cost me lots of time, effort and money to track em down.


----------



## salem (Sep 27, 2015)

btw while I think picking out the cereal cafe was wrong (even if it's the last place I'd chose to spend time in myself) I think that's a bit of a distraction from what looks like a generally good event. Looks well attended and I think the work done (especially the poor doors stuff) is well needed.

I'd like to see better targeting. Here's a good list to start with. I'd support making these people feel more uncomfortable at home for sure and I'd support using smoke bombs _especially _if they could start a fire if such people were the target.


----------



## Wolveryeti (Sep 27, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> It's good to see that you realise that your argument is so bereft of quality that you have to resort to gibbering nonsense.


It's true - I can't engage seriously with incoherent virtue-signalling dressed up as spokesmanship for the poor.

Guilty m'lud!


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 27, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> Been humming Eaton Rifles all day. Not sure why


i prfer the better known eton rifles. but each to their own.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 27, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> If I was in there with my kids and some brave class warrior threw a smoke grenade into the cafe they wouldn't do it again. They'd have more pressing things on their mind


what a big man you are. when was thd last time you attacked someone?


----------



## cantsin (Sep 27, 2015)

Gromit said:


> I've said on the other thread but i'll say it here:
> 
> Anyone who thinks charging soo much for cereal is a gentrification issue is talking hypocritical bullshit if they have ever bought a coffee when out or a take away pizza as they themselves have already paid over the odds for something they could have made at home for a fraction of the cost.
> 
> However I couldn't have 100 of their 120 cereals at my home because i don't have a clue how to get hold of them in the UK and it would no doubt cost me lots of time, effort and money to track em down.



ffs, it's simple stuff  ----

faddy, 100% hipster small business run by two well heeled , media savvy hipsters  = seen as emblem of gentrification.

there's nothing even remotely hypocritical about it, it just is ....


----------



## Dowie (Sep 27, 2015)

cantsin said:


> ffs, it's simple stuff  ----
> 
> faddy, 100% hipster small business run by two well heeled , media savvy hipsters  = seen as emblem of gentrification.
> 
> there's nothing even remotely hypocritical about it, it just is ....



two working class guys from Belfast set up an unusual food business which attracts media attention - they've got beards and fit a particular stereotype so are now legitimate targets...

but if they'd set up say a kebab shop or fried chicken place which didn't get media attention and didn't look/dress like 'hipsters' they'd be OK?

it does seem like 'simple stuff' - like I said before tis just a case of they look like the people we don't like lets attack it...


----------



## cantsin (Sep 27, 2015)

Dowie said:


> two working class guys from Belfast set up an unusual food business which attracts media attention - they've got beards and fit a particular stereotype so are now legitimate targets...
> 
> but if they'd set up say a kebab shop or fried chicken place which didn't get media attention and didn't look/dress like 'hipsters' they'd be OK?



not arguing their 'legitimacy' as targets - 100 % impossible to quantify in any meaningful terms - just the obvious reasons for them becoming targets, in passing/ last night.


----------



## BlackArab (Sep 27, 2015)

Nice one said:


> i don't think we are in conflict with each other, just looking at the trajectory at slightly different angles. The point of dilapidation beyond acceptable standard is when the squatters move in. Squatters were the the vanguard of the gentrification process of any area, closely followed by the 'creatives' and students. All these, being transient populations could put up with a lot more 'unacceptable' shit and yes have no need for "social solidarities between local authorities and their residents".
> 
> Their role though was to begin to make any area 'safe' for redevelopment. This is the first of the middle class "buying in" to an area - culturally rather than financially.



Have witnessed exactly this in the area around Stokes Croft, Bristol. Excellent post and sadly too true.


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 27, 2015)

joustmaster said:


> £2.50 for a bowl of cereal in a cafe doesn't sound too bad, to me



That's for the smallest portion. The absolute cheapest.

It's £1.50 for two slices of toast with a spread. 

It's about £1.20 for a bowl of cereal and two slices of toast at my non-subsidised work canteen.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Sep 27, 2015)

If I was an agent provocateur, attacking small businesses and turning neutrals against the cause is exactly the sort of thing I'd do.


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 27, 2015)

Neutrals?


----------



## Dowie (Sep 27, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> That's for the smallest portion. The absolute cheapest.
> 
> It's £1.50 for two slices of toast with a spread.
> 
> It's about £1.20 for a bowl of cereal and two slices of toast at my non-subsidised work canteen.



not really a good comparison, especially as they're apparently importing cereals not usually sold in the UK... most food businesses like that charge a huge markup

some restaurants up brick lane charge for 'still water' if you don't specify tap water - should they be targeted?


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 27, 2015)

Dowie said:


> not really a good comparison, especially as they're apparently importing cereals not usually sold in the UK... most food businesses like that charge a huge markup
> 
> some restaurants up brick lane charge for 'still water' if you don't specify tap water - should they be targeted?



The £2.50 is the smallest portion of British cereal. It's more for US or World imports. Have you even bothered looking at their website before making your arguments?


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 27, 2015)

It's illegal to charge for tap water btw.

E2a I'm wrong on that point.


----------



## Dowie (Sep 27, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> The £2.50 is the smallest portion of British cereal. It's more for US or World imports. Have you even bothered looking at their website before making your arguments?



I don't really care too much about the irrelevant complaints about prices - the fact is you'll pay similar prices for some dodgy kebab or fried chicken or any number of other things in that area - all of which is sold at a big markup - there was some laughable argument about some strawperson with their three kids not being able to enjoy the cereal cafe a few pages back... when the prices aren't too different to many other fast food places



Citizen66 said:


> It's illegal to charge for tap water btw.



yes indeed


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 27, 2015)

You're missing the point by a country mile. Unless you think that fried chicken shops don't connect with the communities they appear in. There's plenty of takeaways in working class areas. A cafe selling bowls of cereal and a couple of slices of toast for a fiver wouldn't last very long though.

Unless the social make-up changes.


----------



## grit (Sep 27, 2015)

Dowie said:


> legitimate targets...



Interesting choice of words. 

Signed

Paddy


----------



## free spirit (Sep 27, 2015)

In the past I could at least agree with the reasons why the smashy smashy brigade would target the windows of starbucks, mcdonalds.

daring to have beards and charge £3.50 for a bowl of cereal though is complete bollocks as a political justification for attacking a cafe set up and run by 2 working class kids.

Complete bullshit IMO


----------



## brogdale (Sep 27, 2015)

Right or wrong, the paint on the hipster windows has produced some funny as fuck copy in the oligarch-press...


> Gary Keery said: “It wasn’t as if they were walking past and just happened to stumble upon us. They were *deliberately coming here, throwing cereal and shouting ‘gentrification’, ‘anarchy’.*”
> 
> “If they really believe in the protest, why are they covering their face while they’re doing it? *Why are they wearing pig masks?"*


----------



## Dowie (Sep 27, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> You're missing the point by a country mile. Unless you think that fried chicken shops don't connect with the communities they appear in. There's plenty of takeaways in working class areas. A cafe selling bowls of cereal and a couple of slices of toast for a fiver wouldn't last very long though.
> 
> Unless the social make-up changes.



how do you know what the social makeup of the customers of this cafe are? They could be mostly students etc... The whole street caters to people from outside that area and has done so long before this cafe arrived - do you think the other restaurants on brick lane are only aimed at people living in the borough/immediate area? People go visit there from all over London and have done for a while. You'll probably find more bankers in one of the curry houses on a Friday night than in some hipster cereal place.

sounds like even more of this whole they look like the people we don't like, lets attack them mentality....


----------



## Batboy (Sep 27, 2015)

Cereal killer cafe does seem pretentious, but I can't help but think you are shooting yourselves in the foot if you think by attacking a small independent establishment such as this  (however pretentious they are) you will get your point across, you are wrong. If anything you have done more to promote this business, many more people will show solidarity to them than sign up to class war. It also just comes across as if your protests are attacking anything business orientated regardless of size. If you are anti business of any size just say so, and attack all businesses including small kebab shops or the brick lane curry houses (doubt you would because they would smash your face in with a baseball bat as the rioters in Tottenham found out). I understand the opposition to gentrification in most senses, but I do not agree with Class wars actions in this way, you are going to lose more understanding or support than gain, but perhaps thats your aim. Seems daft to me, cowardly almost.


----------



## Belushi (Sep 27, 2015)

Dowie said:


> how do you know what the social makeup of the customers of this cafe are? They could be mostly students etc... The whole street caters to people from outside that area and has done so long before this cafe arrived - do you think the other restaurants on brick lane are only aimed at people living in the borough/immediate area? People go visit there from all over London and have done for a while. You'll probably find more bankers in one of the curry houses on a Friday night than in some hipster cereal place.
> 
> sounds like even more of this whole they look like the people we don't like, lets attack them mentality....



Or Urbanites, there's a few have visited just to check it out


----------



## goldenecitrone (Sep 27, 2015)

free spirit said:


> In the past I could at least agree with the reasons why the smashy smashy brigade would target the windows of starbucks, mcdonalds.
> 
> daring to have beards and charge £3.50 for a bowl of cereal though is complete bollocks as a political justification for attacking a cafe set up and run by 2 working class kids.
> 
> Complete bullshit IMO



Was just reading about the two Irish immigrants who set up the café with the help of their builder/sparks dad.

Cereal Killer Cafe: Belfast brothers open UK's first ever cafe selling nothing but cereal - BelfastTelegraph.co.uk


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 27, 2015)

free spirit said:


> In the past I could at least agree with the reasons why the smashy smashy brigade would target the windows of starbucks, mcdonalds.
> 
> daring to have beards and charge £3.50 for a bowl of cereal though is complete bollocks as a political justification for attacking a cafe set up and run by 2 working class kids.
> 
> Complete bullshit IMO



Where did you get this "two working class lads" nonsense from? They were sales managers prior to this.


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 27, 2015)

goldenecitrone said:


> Was just reading about the two Irish immigrants who set up the café with the help of their builder/sparks dad.
> 
> Cereal Killer Cafe: Belfast brothers open UK's first ever cafe selling nothing but cereal - BelfastTelegraph.co.uk



Belfast is in the UK isn't it?


----------



## Batboy (Sep 27, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> Where did you get this "two working class lads" nonsense from? They were sales managers prior to this.


Do you honestly think a sales manager can't be from a working class background? Should we all be labourers?


----------



## Belushi (Sep 27, 2015)

Hipster.. gentrification.. working class..

We could (and have!) spend years arguing about what each of those terms means. Usually it's in the eye of the beholder.


----------



## BlackArab (Sep 27, 2015)

If it's true they wear wearing pig masks they were lucky not to have seen the baseball bats come out. This is a look I would associate with the EDL.


----------



## free spirit (Sep 27, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> Where did you get this "two working class lads" nonsense from? They were sales managers prior to this.


sons of a Belfast builder / electrician, state educated, went to belfast poly..... 

what would you call them?


----------



## Belushi (Sep 27, 2015)

goldenecitrone said:


> Was just reading about the two Irish immigrants who set up the café with the help of their builder/sparks dad.
> 
> Cereal Killer Cafe: Belfast brothers open UK's first ever cafe selling nothing but cereal - BelfastTelegraph.co.uk





> The boys, who are 32 years old


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 27, 2015)

Batboy said:


> Do you honestly think a sales manager can't be from a working class background? Should we all be labourers?



You think a university educated sales manager is working class?


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 27, 2015)

free spirit said:


> sons of a Belfast builder / electrician, state educated, went to belfast poly.....
> 
> what would you call them?



Was he a brick layer? A 'builder' generally means owns their own firm.


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 27, 2015)

Oh great. Another debate about class!


----------



## Batboy (Sep 27, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> You think a university educated sales manager is working class?


I've been a sales manager I have no qualifications from school having left before my exams, and came from a council estate brought up by a mental ill single parent. Your point is?


----------



## Dowie (Sep 27, 2015)

goldenecitrone said:


> Was just reading about the two Irish immigrants who set up the café with the help of their builder/sparks dad.
> 
> Cereal Killer Cafe: Belfast brothers open UK's first ever cafe selling nothing but cereal - BelfastTelegraph.co.uk



interesting in this thread they've been called:



> two well heeled , media savvy hipsters  = seen as emblem of gentrification.





> You know, upwardly-mobile 'entrepreneurs' with access to capital,



yet according to that article they were turned down by their bank for a loan, turned down by a whole bunch of landlords, use their flat as the storeroom and had help from their dad (a builder & sparky) setting up the place


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 27, 2015)

Batboy said:


> I've been a sales manager I have no qualifications from school having left before my exams, and came from a council estate brought up by a mental ill single parent. Your point is?



You have your own business employing others now don't you?


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 27, 2015)

But brown sauce rather than balsamic vinegar m'lud!


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 27, 2015)

A builder AND sparky! Jack of no trades but employer of many.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Sep 27, 2015)

Always seems weird to call the builder I've used before anything other than working class given he sometimes uses a lad to help him, gets fucking mucky, digs foundations, lays bricks, lives in a predominantly working class town, etc etc etc. But no, he's A Boss now


----------



## sim667 (Sep 27, 2015)

Am I missing something? Or did the literally get a some budget cereal and ketchup and put it on the shop window? The estate agent was the place that got smashed up?


----------



## free spirit (Sep 27, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> Was he a brick layer? A 'builder' generally means owns their own firm.


it tends to more mean they're a bit of a jack of all trades rather than specialising in a single trade IME. The ones who work from start to finish on one build while the trades move from build to build doing their specialist bits.

some of them are self employed / manage building firms, others are just builders who build things for people who pay them.

Either way, they're hardly up there with the Eton tribe, and this remains complete a completely bullshit action.


----------



## Batboy (Sep 27, 2015)

Ok here is the acid test for Class War and a task I set you. One of the most awful things about Capitalism has been on the football side. The working classes have  been fucked over royally especially in the Premier league. Take your protests to a West Ham/Chelsea/Tottenham/Arsenal game, West Ham would be good because  of the Olympic Stadium.  kick it off as a protest attack the grounds and everything they stand for daub paint on the stadiums and scare the punters. They are a far more legitimate target than some small pretentious poxy cafe in Brick Lane. Would be great publicity.

Let me know when you are going to do this So I can pull up a deck chair and entertain myself for the day.


----------



## Batboy (Sep 27, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> You have your own business employing others now don't you?


Yep, have done for many years I am a great believer in small businesses and if anyone came to attack my business they would have the biggest fight they had ever seen. Class war don't pick on kebab shops because the whole Turkish community would gang up and slit their throats. One of the things I noticed during the London riots was how they stood together and armed themselves. There is a massive hole in Class wars argument in attacking certain businesses. They are cowards. Go attack a football club, they are more legitimate than some poxy pretentious cafe in Brick Lane. 

The real shame is that I am anti corporate , I hate the financial institutions, I hate the property market situation, I hate the way the working classes have been fucked over, but if you think by attacking a small business I will support you, you can go fuck yourself.


----------



## hipipol (Sep 27, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> You think a university educated sales manager is working class?


In the current world yes
So two boys from a not rich background, from a violence prone area decide that, laden with debt they needed a scheme to get SOMETHING back from London
We have no breakdown of the attackers background, prob a bunch of fuckin Tarquins on a GapYah who are experiencing "Londons Vibrancy" on the basis that Daddy will always bail them out - ref that twat son of guitar player with loads of wedge who thought himself beyond reproach cos of who his Dad was - no doubt the young Cameron was the same
More info is needed before a blanket  blame is apportioned I thinkl


----------



## ClassWar2015 (Sep 27, 2015)

Dowie said:


> it is a very hot exothermic reaction that can easily set stuff on fire, it could set plenty of places on fire and it is fucking stupid to throw it into an enclosed space with a bunch of people in, tis rather dumb to try and justify it with 'oh but its a chemical reaction not burning'



Are they fuck. They are a "cold burn" designed for play during airsoft and paintball games. You can hold them in your bare hands.

Go have a shave and think about your life.


----------



## hipipol (Sep 27, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> A builder AND sparky! Jack of no trades but employer of many.


Oh Yeah?
have you ever worked on a site?


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 27, 2015)

S☼I said:


> Always seems weird to call the builder I've used before anything other than working class given he sometimes uses a lad to help him, gets fucking mucky, digs foundations, lays bricks, lives in a predominantly working class town, etc etc etc. But no, he's A Boss now



You know there's varying levels of it?


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 27, 2015)

hipipol said:


> Oh Yeah?
> have you ever worked on a site?





Nah. I'm a posh sparky me. Space shuttles only.


----------



## editor (Sep 27, 2015)

Batboy said:


> Yep, have done for many years I am a great believer in small businesses and if anyone came to attack my business they would have the biggest fight they had ever seen. Class war don't pick on kebab shops because the whole Turkish community would gang up and slit their throats.


Yes, because that's what the Turks do, isn't it? Throatslitters, the lot of them.


----------



## ClassWar2015 (Sep 27, 2015)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> If I was an agent provocateur, attacking small businesses and turning neutrals against the cause is exactly the sort of thing I'd do.



I'm not surprised a Syriza supporter spews shite like that.


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 27, 2015)

Batboy said:


> Yep, have done for many years I am a great believer in small businesses and if anyone came to attack my business they would have the biggest fight they had ever seen. Class war don't pick on kebab shops because the whole Turkish community would gang up and slit their throats. One of the things I noticed during the London riots was how they stood together and armed themselves. There is a massive hole in Class wars argument in attacking certain businesses. They are cowards. Go attack a football club, they are more legitimate than some poxy pretentious cafe in Brick Lane.
> 
> The real shame is that I am anti corporate , I hate the financial institutions, I hate the property market situation, I hate the way the working classes have been fucked over, but if you think by attacking a small business I will support you, you can go fuck yourself.



Small business owners will never be 'on side'. They're fully invested in the mechanics of capital and class.


----------



## Batboy (Sep 27, 2015)

editor said:


> Yes, because that's what the Turks do, isn't it? Throatslitters, the lot of them.


I live close to Stoke Newington, When the London riots were on, they got together to protect there premises. They armed themselves with bats, clubs and yes meat cleavers. You may want to twist my description into some absurd racial stereotyping but its a bit lame. The fact remains the likes of class war go after soft targets. As I said before for Class War go attack the curry houses in Brick Lane or go attack premiership clubs especially on match day. You and I know what would happen.


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 27, 2015)

You always get reactions such as this from Liberals. They don't like uncontrolled (not peaceful) demonstration.


----------



## Batboy (Sep 27, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> Small business owners will never be 'on side'. They're fully invested in the mechanics of capital and class.



Yep because society  will really work without trading of any kind.


----------



## free spirit (Sep 27, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> Nah. I'm a posh sparky me. Space shuttles only.


and would you describe yourself as working class?

because the other bloke also describes himself as an electrician, and his wife says they're working class.



> “I’ve been here since last Monday. 14 hour days. We didn’t think we’d get anywhere close to being finished for Wednesday. It was all hands to the pump.
> 
> “You see the kitchen? That was the main thing, there was nothing there and I had to put it in.
> 
> ...





> We’re from a working class family and when you talk about poverty, we’re from a very deprived area of Belfast.


So I visited the Cereal Killer Cafe and what happened next surprised… ME!


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Sep 27, 2015)

ClassWar2015 said:


> I'm not surprised a Syriza supporter spews shite like that.




You think it's good PR do you? Attacking a small business?

Think people will rally to your cause? Really? 

Care to demonstrate an evidence base, or are you too busy feeling like you changed things by being part of smashing up a cereal shop? Wow. 

Good luck and all power to those resisting evictions and confronting even the likes of letting agents, but this is more pathetic than even your partisan sniping.


----------



## editor (Sep 27, 2015)

Batboy said:


> I live close to Stoke Newington, When the London riots were on, they got together to protect there premises. They armed themselves with bats, clubs and yes meat cleavers. You may want to twist my description into some absurd racial stereotyping but its a bit lame. The fact remains the likes of class war go after soft targets. As I said before for Class War go attack the curry houses in Brick Lane or go attack premiership clubs especially on match day. You and I know what would happen.


_Some_ of them got together to protect their premises and - correct me if I'm wrong - _none of them_ went around slitting peoples throats. Such shoddy stereotypes borders on racism.


----------



## editor (Sep 27, 2015)

free spirit said:


> So I visited the Cereal Killer Cafe and what happened next surprised… ME!


Like I'm going to click on a shitty clickbait title like that


----------



## free spirit (Sep 27, 2015)

editor said:


> Like I'm going to click on a shitty clickbait title like that


you don't need to, I quoted the relevant bits. The link's just to give the source.


----------



## editor (Sep 27, 2015)

free spirit said:


> you don't need to, I quoted the relevant bits. The link's just to give the source.


I tend to treat articles written like that as being most likely unreadable clickbait tosh, so I'm not really interested in their opinions.


----------



## Batboy (Sep 27, 2015)

editor said:


> _Some_ of them got together to protect their premises and - correct me if I'm wrong - _none of them_ went around slitting peoples throats. Such shoddy stereotypes borders on racism.


Ed I am sure you can do better than that. You clearly understand the core message of what I am trying to say, seems pointless to try and detract from that. If somebody was trying to attack and burn my business down I would defend it to the hilt, whether that was with a bat or slitting someones throat. The Turkish community (and I know a hell of a lot of them would feel the same way).

Why don't class war attack Premiership football clubs on match day?  Seems a very legitimate target. nobody from the anarchy scene seems to want to answer that.


----------



## free spirit (Sep 27, 2015)

editor said:


> I tend to treat articles written like that as being most likely unreadable clickbait tosh, so I'm not really interested in their opinions.


well don't read it then, but it did quote both of their parents talking directly about their working class backgrounds, which Citizen seems to have a problem accepting.


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 27, 2015)

free spirit said:


> and would you describe yourself as working class?



I sell my labour to others. What would you call me? He very well may be. 'Builder' isn't a trade though, it incorporates several so usually refers to a business.


----------



## free spirit (Sep 27, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> I sell my labour to others. What would you call me? He very well may be. 'Builder' isn't a trade though, it incorporates several so usually refers to a business.


he describes himself as an electrician, so do you.


----------



## Dowie (Sep 27, 2015)

ClassWar2015 said:


> Are they fuck. They are a "cold burn" designed for play during airsoft and paintball games. You can hold them in your bare hands.



article didn't specify the type... perhaps you have more details - still a fucking stupid thing to do



> Go have a shave and think about your life.



go have a think about yours... you attacked a small shop, well done you - that will show them, I'm sure you achieved loads by doing that


----------



## editor (Sep 27, 2015)

Batboy said:


> Ed I am sure you can do better than that. You clearly understand the core message of what I am trying to say, seems pointless to try and detract from that.


I'm sure you can understand that what you wrote was wrong and offensive.


----------



## Sparkle Motion (Sep 27, 2015)

What was the general social demographic of the protest?

Poor locals born and bred, priced out of their childhood homes?


----------



## free spirit (Sep 27, 2015)

Sparkle Motion said:


> What was the general social demographic of the protest?
> 
> Poor locals born and bred, priced out of their childhood homes?


very unlikely.


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 27, 2015)

free spirit said:


> he describes himself as an electrician, so do you.



He describes himself as a builder. Show me the job ads for builders pls.


----------



## ClassWar2015 (Sep 27, 2015)

Batboy said:


> I live close to Stoke Newington, When the London riots were on, they got together to protect there premises. They armed themselves with bats, clubs and yes meat cleavers. You may want to twist my description into some absurd racial stereotyping but its a bit lame. The fact remains the likes of class war go after soft targets. As I said before for Class War go attack the curry houses in Brick Lane or go attack premiership clubs especially on match day. You and I know what would happen.



Why the fuck would we attack curry houses or football clubs you pillock?


----------



## ClassWar2015 (Sep 27, 2015)

Martin on last night.


----------



## hipipol (Sep 27, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> Nah. I'm a posh sparky me. Space shuttles only.


On any site with small builders running it, I'm the boss this week, you're my boss neat
Its the way small trades work
We work together but we spread the risk and the profit (if any!!!)
You chose to work for a large and corporate organisation years ago
Small biz, not a space you have much exp of, eh?


----------



## Steel Icarus (Sep 27, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> You know there's varying levels of it?


Obviously, and I reckon these goons with their cereal shop are not exactly the Koch Bros, more Cock Bros amirite


----------



## free spirit (Sep 27, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> He describes himself as a builder. Show me the job ads for builders pls.


a journalist described him as a builder, he describes himself as an electrician in the quote I posted.



> *I’m an electrician by trade*


----------



## ClassWar2015 (Sep 27, 2015)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> You think it's good PR do you? Attacking a small business?



The size of the business is irrelevant. Since when has CW given a fuck about middle class PR?


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 27, 2015)

first they came for the london based cereal cafe owners


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 27, 2015)

hipipol said:


> On any site with small builders running it, I'm the boss this week, you're my boss neat
> Its the way small trades work
> We work together but we spread the risk and the profit (if any!!!)
> You chose to work for a large and corporate organisation years ago
> Small biz, not a space you have much exp of, eh?



You mean the fifteen years before I worked for a large org = less experience than you have of the game?


----------



## Batboy (Sep 27, 2015)

editor said:


> I'm sure you can understand that what you wrote was wrong and offensive.


No I can't see that.... If there is some correlation between slitting throats and the Turkish community I have not come across it and considering the work I do with Turkish kids and football you are way off the mark in trying to slant this. If you want to choose to make that correlation then thats your prerogative. 

I realise the core argument we are never going to agree upon but I would like some input from you or someone as to why Class War don't attack premiership football clubs on match days.. I think we all know the answer. And it is this answer that shows the real fact that Class war or any other Anarchist group would rather choose an easy target like a pretentious cafe in brick lane or a bank.


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 27, 2015)

free spirit said:


> a journalist described him as a builder, he describes himself as an electrician in the quote I posted.



He's an electrician _by trade_. When someone says that it means they're not doing it any more. It's a past tense statement. They've moved onwards or upwards.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Sep 27, 2015)

ClassWar2015 said:


> The size of the business is irrelevant. Since when has CW given a fuck about middle class PR?



Public relations is about the public, it's what "public" means. Lots of the public aren't middle class. 

I guess the size of the business may not be massively relevant. If they were were small scale arms dealers for example, that would be proper rancid. But a cereal cafe. Wow. Go. Raw anarchy. Smash and burn. Great impression of what anarchists are about and for.


----------



## Batboy (Sep 27, 2015)

ClassWar2015 said:


> Why the fuck would we attack curry houses or football clubs you pillock?


Pillock thanks for the abuse....  I'll try not to sink to your level
 Premiership clubs are the err height of capitalism, Murdoch Sky Billionaires, 200 k a week salaries. Are you really that stupid?


----------



## editor (Sep 27, 2015)

Batboy said:


> No I can't see that.... If there is some correlation between slitting throats and the Turkish community I have not come across it and considering the work I do with Turkish kids and football you are way off the mark in trying to slant this. If you want to choose to make that correlation then thats your prerogative.


Your quote: "Class war don't pick on kebab shops because the *whole Turkish community would gang up and slit their throats*."

Think about what you just wrote. Carefully.


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 27, 2015)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> Public relations is about the public, it's what "public" means. Lots of the public aren't middle class.
> 
> I guess the size of the business may not be massively relevant. If they were were small scale arms dealers for example, that would be proper rancid. But a cereal cafe. Wow. Go. Raw anarchy. Smash and burn. Great impression of what anarchists are about and for.



Are you still writing your anti working class Antifa shite?


----------



## ClassWar2015 (Sep 27, 2015)

Batboy said:


> I realise the core argument we are never going to agree upon but I would like some input from you or someone as to why Class War don't attack premiership football clubs on match days.




Absolute moron


----------



## free spirit (Sep 27, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> He's an electrician _by trade_. When someone says that it means they're not doing it any more. It's a past tense statement. They've moved onwards or upwards.


you're talking so much shite today.

So if he is / was an electrician would that class as them being from a working class background or not?


----------



## ClassWar2015 (Sep 27, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> Are you still writing your anti working class Antifa shite?



What does he write?


----------



## Batboy (Sep 27, 2015)

editor said:


> Your quote: "Class war don't pick on kebab shops because the *whole Turkish community would gang up and slit their throats*."
> 
> Think about what you just wrote. Carefully.



You really are clutching at straws Ed. And still no one answers my question including you about football clubs.


----------



## ClassWar2015 (Sep 27, 2015)

Batboy said:


> Pillock thanks for the abuse....  I'll try not to sink to your level
> Premiership clubs are the err height of capitalism, Murdoch Sky Billionaires, 200 k a week salaries. Are you really that stupid?



Go and have a think about your racism. While I enjoy my baklava just bought from Green Lanes.


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 27, 2015)

free spirit said:


> you're talking so much shite today.
> 
> So if he is / was an electrician would that class as them being from a working class background or not?



I'm not talking shite mate. If you talk to a sparky they'll tell you they are a sparky. If you talk to a business owner that used to be a sparky but employs others to do it they'll say "I'm a sparky by trade". Or if they're selling holidays nowadays or a taxi driver or whatever. You say it when you're no longer doing it but to tell people you're trained at it.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Sep 27, 2015)

ClassWar2015 said:


> Martin on last night.




The turnout sounds good, as does much of the intent. But it's not "sobbing.. cobblers" to be rather shocked about having your workplace attacked. "The tsunami of welath and money" - yep, dead right. "streets and public spaces are our only forum" - yep. But some targets really are easier to understand while others will alienate folk.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Sep 27, 2015)

I'm just genuinely curious about what input local people had into the organising/objectives of the protest, and how many from the area targeted were part of this protest, ie what were the channels of communication and who was involved in the decision making


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 27, 2015)

ClassWar2015 said:


> What does he write?



Hang on. I don't know where to find it but others might.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Sep 27, 2015)

ClassWar2015 said:


> Go and have a think about your racism. While I enjoy my baklava just bought from Green Lanes.



Cereal. Baklava. How awful. Sneering at that stuff will really show people.


----------



## ClassWar2015 (Sep 27, 2015)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> The turnout sounds good, as does much of the intent. But it's not "sobbing" cobblers to be rather shocked about having your workplace attacked. "The tsunami of welath and money" - yep, dead right. "streets and public spaces are our only forum" - yep. But some targets really are easier to understand while others will alienate folk.



It's not for you to understand. We are not acting to attract your class.


----------



## free spirit (Sep 27, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> I'm not talking shite mate. If you talk to a sparky they'll tell you they are a sparky. If you talk to a business owner that used to be a sparky but employs others to do it they'll say "I'm a sparky by trade". Or if they're selling holidays nowadays or a taxi driver or whatever. You say it when you're no longer doing it but to tell people you're trained at it.


it's also what a retired spark would say.

it's also irrelevant to whether they come from a working class background or not - something their mum specifically says they do.


----------



## maomao (Sep 27, 2015)

cantsin said:


> what would attacking RBS in Lpool St have had to do with Gentrification in Shoreditch ?


Loads. Have you any idea of the size of their BTL portfolio? Middle class kids spending 70% of their wages to live in a shoebox somewhere trendy are just pawns in the game. I found it amusing when I read about it this morning but I don't think it was a great target tactically.


----------



## hipipol (Sep 27, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> You mean the fifteen years before I worked for a large org = less experience than you have of the game?


Nope, what I'm saying is, having been cocooned as I have by my slow climb up the safety of employment ladder, I have forgotten many things
Equally, you must be the same
Having said that, I have been self employed many times, even once - shock horror, employing 2 people - something I had to give up as the strain of ensuring the employment of others was beyond me - mainly tbf cos my biz partner was always well loose in the trouser dept and was, not to be squeamish, a vile sexist predatory shit, so I closed it
I need more info before I can lay blame at these poor buggers feet


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Sep 27, 2015)

ClassWar2015 said:


> It's not for you to understand. We are not acting to attract your class.



You know fuck all about my class, making assumptions about people you don't know isn't very admirable.


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 27, 2015)

free spirit said:


> it's also what a retired spark would say.
> 
> it's also irrelevant to whether they come from a working class background or not - something their mum specifically says they do.



Linda Lee Potter came from a working class background. So what?


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 27, 2015)

They now have two cafes employing others. Good old working class lads.


----------



## Batboy (Sep 27, 2015)

ClassWar2015 said:


> Go and have a think about your racism. While I enjoy my baklava just bought from Green Lanes.



Do you know this is the usual shit on these forums and why I often disappear. . You cannot engage and answer intelligent questions choosing instead to cry 'racism' because that is in your mind the only way out of an argument.. Mate you are picking on the wrong person for that. fuck off or someone ban me..... Urban 75 used to be interesting it is morphing into some back slapping self congratulatory forum with central characters that have been on here since its inception. Anyone with an alternative view from the bully core is drowned out by accusations such as this.


----------



## free spirit (Sep 27, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> Linda Lee Potter came from a working class background. So what?


so you're first post in this exchange was bollocks.

If you're now going to move on to the 'so what if they came from a working class background' phase of the discussion, please make your case for how this is some sort of a class war that the working class masses should support. I'd like to see you explaining to them all how if their kids end up doing marginally well, then they should be viewed as legit targets for class wars attacks.

It's utter bullshit.


----------



## Belushi (Sep 27, 2015)

maomao said:


> Loads. Have you any idea of the size of their BTL portfolio? Middle class kids spending 70% of their wages to live in a shoebox somewhere trendy are just pawns in the game. I found it amusing when I read about it this morning but I don't think it was a great target tactically.



This.


----------



## Batboy (Sep 27, 2015)

ClassWar2015 said:


> Absolute moron


Clearly you are....


----------



## Belushi (Sep 27, 2015)

Batboy said:


> Urban 75 used to be interesting it is morphing into some back slapping self congratulatory forum with central characters that have been on here since its inception. Anyone with an alternative view from the bully core is drowned out by accusations such as this.



It's much more middle class liberal on here than it was years ago. There are very few anarchists left here nowadays.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Sep 27, 2015)

[


Citizen66 said:


> Are you still writing your anti working class Antifa shite?



If you are referring to my occasional knocks, some years ago, against stupid race-hate scum, I don't associate class with intelligence. Maybe you do.


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 27, 2015)

free spirit said:


> well don't read it then, but it did quote both of their parents talking directly about their working class backgrounds, which Citizen seems to have a problem accepting.



Why did they take great pains to point out their class background in the newspaper article about this hipster cafe btw? Why was it relevant?


----------



## Ax^ (Sep 27, 2015)

fuck me ya think 2 working class kids from a social deprived area of Belfast

would not be shitted up by a few people throwing stones and wearing pigs mask..


----------



## Batboy (Sep 27, 2015)

Belushi said:


> It's much more middle class liberal on here than it was years ago. There are very few anarchists left here nowadays.


That's because they all have mortgages now....


----------



## hipipol (Sep 27, 2015)

Batboy said:


> Do you know this is the usual shit on these forums and why I often disappear. . You cannot engage and answer intelligent questions choosing instead to cry 'racism' because that is in your mind the only way out of an argument.. Mate you are picking on the wrong person for that. fuck off or someone ban me..... Urban 75 used to be interesting it is morphing into some back slapping self congratulatory forum with central characters that have been on here since its inception. Anyone with an alternative view from the bully core is drowned out by accusations such as this.


Alternative should not include "Throat slitting" as part of its intellectual armoury I feel........


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Sep 27, 2015)

Belushi said:


> It's much more middle class liberal on here than it was years ago. There are very few anarchists left here nowadays.



Middle class folk should know their place and be conservatives or reactionaries. 

Only sons of the soil like kropotkin should have a crack at the real politics.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Sep 27, 2015)

Batboy said:


> That's because they all have mortgages now....



Again, evidence base?


----------



## free spirit (Sep 27, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> Why did they take great pains to point out their class background in the newspaper article about this hipster cafe btw? Why was it relevant?


Presumably because the interview was taking place the day after channel 4 had had a pop at them for daring to open a cafe in a poor working class area of London.


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 27, 2015)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> [
> 
> 
> If you are referring to my occasional knocks, some years ago, against stupid race-hate scum, I don't associate class with intelligence. Maybe you do.



I link poor education with class. Maybe you don't?


----------



## Batboy (Sep 27, 2015)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> Again, evidence base?


.. they come to my dinner parties!


----------



## hipipol (Sep 27, 2015)

Ax^ said:


> fuck me ya think 2 working class kids from a social deprived area of Belfast
> 
> would not be shitted up by a few people throwing stones and wearing pigs mask..



Lacking a bit bottle eh?


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Sep 27, 2015)

It's always instructive to see people remotely guage the sophisticated detail of the socio-economic status and nuanced politics of folk they have never met, on not much evidence, and then cast enourmous know-all judgement on it. The humility of it is also very moving. I wish I could carry that sort of act off.


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 27, 2015)

free spirit said:


> Presumably because the interview was taking place the day after channel 4 had had a pop at them for daring to open a cafe in a poor working class area of London.



Someone says they're wc in a newspaper so they must be! It's not much evidence really is it?


----------



## Batboy (Sep 27, 2015)

hipipol said:


> Alternative should not include "Throat slitting" as part of its intellectual armoury I feel........


Yeah I know but I was born on a council estate with a single mother... we slit everyones throat that tried to fuck us over....


----------



## free spirit (Sep 27, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> Someone says they're wc in a newspaper so they must be! It's not much evidence really is it?


obviously you must know better than them.


----------



## Belushi (Sep 27, 2015)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> Again, evidence base?



You'll have to take my word for it, but some of the anarchists who were making the most noise on here a decade ago are now following very successful professional careers.


----------



## Ax^ (Sep 27, 2015)

any of them running pop up cafes


----------



## Batboy (Sep 27, 2015)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> It's always instructive to see people remotely guage the sophisticated detail of the socio-economic status and nuanced politics of folk they have never met, on not much evidence, and then cast enourmous know-all judgement on it. The humility of it is also very moving. I wish I could carry that sort of act off.


Lol... I fucking love you! You've nailed it.... I need another glass of wine..... It makes your posts easier to understand


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 27, 2015)

free spirit said:


> obviously you must know better than them.



A builder owns a firm. Bricklayers, roofers, labourers etc do the graft. People who own multiple cafes employing others are petit bourgeouis at the very least.


----------



## Ax^ (Sep 27, 2015)

plus one of them was a store manager at superdry

burn them burn the witches

*shakes fist at sky*


----------



## Steel Icarus (Sep 27, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> A builder owns a firm. A bricklayers, roofer, labourers etc do the graft. People who own multiple cafes employing others are petit bourgeouis at the very least.


Not all business owners stand there with arms folded watching the workers they're exploiting, though


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Sep 27, 2015)

Belushi said:


> You'll have to take my word for it, but some of the anarchists who were making the most noise on here a decade ago are now following very successful professional careers.




Ok, I can take your word for it. I was here a decade ago and wasn't a noise making anarchist. Neither do I have a successful professional career now. The nature of those careers would be interesting. Perhaps they are rapacious scumbag capitalists or perhaps they are in jobs helping people.


----------



## free spirit (Sep 27, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> A builder owns a firm. A bricklayers, roofer, labourers etc do the graft. People who own multiple cafes employing others are petit bourgeouis at the very least.


but still from a working class background.

fucking funny this, a self described working class electrician calling another self described working class electrician out for not being working class.


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 27, 2015)

S☼I said:


> Not all business owners stand there with arms folded watching the workers they're exploiting, though



Yep. Petit bourgeois 'work' alongside them.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Sep 27, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> Yep. Petit bourgeois 'work' alongside them.


Why the scare quotes


----------



## Batboy (Sep 27, 2015)

Belushi said:


> You'll have to take my word for it, but some of the anarchists who were making the most noise on here a decade ago are now following very successful professional careers.


Many years back a good friend of mine described himself as an anarchist... I replied 'fuck me mate for an anarchist you have a shitload of rules'.. Most anarchists end up with mortgages... and then that wants a better school for their kids.


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 27, 2015)

a) why didn't they do x that I approve of? They did Y thing for Z reason!

b) it was dangerous, kids could have died! I would beat them all up

c) They are salt-of-the-earth lads struggling to scrape a living!

d) Did I mention my kids and how hard I am?

etc


Like I say the Estate Agents was a fair target, this one was silly but fuck me listen to the clutching of pearls


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 27, 2015)

free spirit said:


> but still from a working class background.
> 
> fucking funny this, a self described working class electrician calling another self described working class electrician out for not being working class.



I know the same as you do. That he's been described as a 'builder' (business owner) that's an electrician by trade (what he worked as before owning business) that sent two kids to university who now own two cafes in two expensive parts of London (Shoreditch and Camden) that employ people.

_ Good working class lads._

Muppet.


----------



## Batboy (Sep 27, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> a) why didn't they do x that I approve of? They did Y thing for Z reason!
> 
> b) it was dangerous, kids could have died! I would beat them all up
> 
> ...



What about premiership football clubs? No one here wants to answer this!


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 27, 2015)

S☼I said:


> Why the scare quotes



Bosses seldom do equitable labour.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Sep 27, 2015)

I think everyone on this thread us silly and the protest was silly and the cereal peddlers are silly, all apparently grownups ffs. Couldn't construct a better distraction if you were a proper money man.


----------



## hipipol (Sep 27, 2015)

Batboy said:


> Yeah I know but I was born on a council estate with a single mother... we slit everyones throat that tried to fuck us over....


Luck mate


----------



## Batboy (Sep 27, 2015)

S☼I said:


> Not all business owners stand there with arms folded watching the workers they're exploiting, though



They do in the eyes of many on U75. I have just worked 10 weeks with no pay every day to try and get something new off the ground.


----------



## free spirit (Sep 27, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> I know the same as you do. That he's been described as a 'builder' (business owner) that's an electrician by trade (what he worked as before owning business) that sent two kids to university who now own two cafes in two expensive parts of London (Shoreditch and Camden) that employ people.
> 
> _ Good working class lads._
> 
> Muppet.


They went to Belfast Institute of Further and Higher Education.... the upper class swine.

I doubt they own anything about those cafes beyond the intellectual property, stock and fittings, though most of that would be on credit.


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 27, 2015)

Batboy said:


> What about premiership football clubs? No one here wants to answer this!


you'll have to tie that one in with gentrification? I don't go football but I'm told its all 40 quid tickets and wankers now. (I did go to a kettering match last year but thats so far below the prem its practically sunday league)


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 27, 2015)

free spirit said:


> They went to Belfast Institute of Further and Higher Education.... the upper class swine.
> 
> I doubt they own anything about those cafes *beyond the intellectual property, *stock and fittings, though most of that would be on credit.



They've patented their idea? Or you just mean the trademark?


----------



## Gromit (Sep 27, 2015)

How did these so called poor people who can't afford £3 cereal bowls afford pig masks and flare n stuff?


----------



## free spirit (Sep 27, 2015)

Batboy said:


> They do in the eyes of many on U75. I have just worked 10 weeks with no pay every day to try and get something new off the ground.


|just pulled a 15 hour shift followed by 18 hours on site thursday and friday. Lazy petit bourgeouise twat that I am.


----------



## free spirit (Sep 27, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> They've patented their idea? Or you just mean the trademark?


haven't got a clue about what they've done, IP covers any and all of that.


----------



## Wolveryeti (Sep 27, 2015)

S☼I said:


> I'm just genuinely curious about what input local people had into the organising/objectives of the protest, and how many from the area targeted were part of this protest, ie what were the channels of communication and who was involved in the decision making


Don't ask searching questions - the Irish twins were obviously scum and class traitors by virtue of daring to run a successful  business.


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 27, 2015)

now the _how hard I graft _boasts

thirty years man and boy


----------



## stethoscope (Sep 27, 2015)

Do I recall a previous thread where boss class Batboy was upset because boss class Jewish syndicates had infiltrated his patch which is bad because Batboy is a fairer form of boss class because of his working class background?!


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 27, 2015)

free spirit said:


> haven't got a clue about what they've done, IP covers any and all of that.



I don't think you can patent what your shop sells. Monopolies no good for free markets.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Sep 27, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> Bosses seldom do equitable labour.


I can only go on the four small businesses I have dealt with relatively recently but in all cases the 'boss' did the same as or more than anyone else. Surely in small ie 2 3/or 4 person operations it's going to be this way?


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 27, 2015)

stethoscope said:


> Do I recall a previous thread where boss class Batboy was upset because boss class Jewish syndicates had infiltrated his patch which is bad because Batboy is a fairer form of boss class because of his working class background?!



Your memory functions fine.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Sep 27, 2015)

Anyway, nuff of this old shite, what I'm still wondering, ClassWar2015 is   





S☼I said:


> I'm just genuinely curious about what input local people had into the organising/objectives of the protest, and how many from the area targeted were part of this protest, ie what were the channels of communication and who was involved in the decision making


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 27, 2015)

S☼I said:


> I can only go on the four small businesses I have dealt with relatively recently but in all cases the 'boss' did the same as or more than anyone else. Surely in small ie 2 3/or 4 person operations it's going to be this way?



Do they all draw the same salary?


----------



## Steel Icarus (Sep 27, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> Do they all draw the same salary?


No idea. Should they?


----------



## maomao (Sep 27, 2015)

S☼I said:


> I can only go on the four small businesses I have dealt with relatively recently but in all cases the 'boss' did the same as or more than anyone else. Surely in small ie 2 3/or 4 person operations it's going to be this way?


I worked for a smallish company for years where the boss was a lazy incompetent coke head cunt whose company was kept running by those of us who depended on the wage.


----------



## free spirit (Sep 27, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> I don't think you can patent what your shop sells. Monopolies no good for free markets.


if you're arguing that there's minimal value in the intellectual property that they own then I'd agree, it was pretty much the point I was making. They probably actually own fuck all.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Sep 27, 2015)

Class is so complex. I know plenty of lower and middle class people as well as having some insight into higher than that. 

I do not find the credibilty of a person's political perspective to be dependent on their class.

Middle (ish) class people who are denigrated merely for holding opinions to the left of tory-ism get it from two main directions - working class elements and middle class reactionary elements. Laughing at middle class liberals/socialists/anarchists etc. is just as common among Daily Mail types as some of the finger-waggers on here. Something to reflect on possibly.


----------



## Ax^ (Sep 27, 2015)

the cafe owners are just happy with the publicity it would seem


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 27, 2015)

S☼I said:


> No idea. Should they?



How can the labour they do be equitable if they're rewarded differently?


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Sep 27, 2015)

free spirit said:


> sons of a Belfast builder / electrician, state educated, went to belfast poly.....
> 
> what would you call them?



Enemies of everything.


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 27, 2015)

free spirit said:


> if you're arguing that there's minimal value in the intellectual property that they own then I'd agree, it was pretty much the point I was making. They probably actually own fuck all.



Just a business valued at enough to enable growth into another high value central London location.


----------



## Batboy (Sep 27, 2015)

Gromit said:


> How did these so called poor people who can't afford £3 cereal bowls afford pig masks and flare n stuff?


because they live in Surrey?


----------



## Wolveryeti (Sep 27, 2015)

Gromit said:


> How did these so called poor people who can't afford £3 cereal bowls afford pig masks and flare n stuff?


They weren't poor, just angry losers who like to hate on people with more gumption than themselves. Any excuse will do - not the right type of working class etc. They like to drag the beneficiaries of their 'love' down to their level.


----------



## Wolveryeti (Sep 27, 2015)

DP.


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 27, 2015)

Batboy said:


> because they live in Surrey?



Are your workers unionised?


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 27, 2015)

hey, I just checked and smoke renades are 3 quid a pop- much like the cereal! god loves his little ironies.

but yes, clearly sons of toil could never afford that. Thats why theres never any working class people at the paintballing


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 27, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> hey, I just checked and smoke renades are 3 quid a pop- much like the cereal! god loves his little ironies.
> 
> but yes, clearly sons of toil could never afford that. Thats why theres never any working class people at the paintballing



It's an aristocratic pursuit.


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 27, 2015)

Wolveryeti said:


> They weren't poor, just angry losers who like to hate on people with more gumption than themselves. Any excuse will do - not the right type of working class etc. They like to drag the beneficiaries of their 'love' down to their level.


politics of envy


----------



## Batboy (Sep 27, 2015)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> Class is so complex. I know plenty of lower and middle class people as well as having some insight into higher than that.
> 
> I do not find the credibilty of a person's political perspective to be dependent on their class.
> 
> Middle (ish) class people who are denigrated merely for holding opinions to the left of tory-ism get it from two main directions - working class elements and middle class reactionary elements. Laughing at middle class liberals/socialists/anarchists etc. is just as common among Daily Mail types as some of the finger-waggers on here. Something to reflect on possibly.


Unfortunately one of the common factors between the DM and U75 is the lack of understanding of the complexities of people and indeed class, life can be very polarised in these domains.. Congrats again good observation..


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 27, 2015)

Wolveryeti said:


> It's true - I can't engage seriously with incoherent virtue-signalling dressed up as spokesmanship for the poor.
> 
> Guilty m'lud!



Oh dear, buzzwording us with the latest media favourite: "virtue-signalling", *and* having quantify it as "dressed up as spokesmanship for the poor"! How do you know the economic status of the protesters? You don't, any more than you know the economic status of your interlocutors on Urban.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 27, 2015)

Gromit said:


> I've said on the other thread but i'll say it here:
> 
> Anyone who thinks charging soo much for cereal is a gentrification issue is talking hypocritical bullshit if they have ever bought a coffee when out or a take away pizza as they themselves have already paid over the odds for something they could have made at home for a fraction of the cost.
> 
> However I couldn't have 100 of their 120 cereals at my home because i don't have a clue how to get hold of them in the UK and it would no doubt cost me lots of time, effort and money to track em down.



As usual, you miss the point.


----------



## sim667 (Sep 27, 2015)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> Class is so complex. I know plenty of lower and middle class people as well as having some insight into higher than that.
> 
> I do not find the credibilty of a person's political perspective to be dependent on their class.
> 
> Middle (ish) class people who are denigrated merely for holding opinions to the left of tory-ism get it from two main directions - working class elements and middle class reactionary elements. Laughing at middle class liberals/socialists/anarchists etc. is just as common among Daily Mail types as some of the finger-waggers on here. Something to reflect on possibly.



I sometimes wonder whether the labelling of class actually gives the issue of class momentum as a problem. 

The notion that I somehow see myself as better or worse than everyday people I see on the street really has no basis, and I think in a vast majority of people I know the same thing could be said. Realistically that's what I can see it being about, but if it's about wealth then will someone please tell me what the benchmarks are because they seem to be moved every 15 seconds.

A discussion surrounding class almost always ends up in playing political theory big bollocks punctuated by some generalised mud slinging.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Sep 27, 2015)

Was I dreaming, or did our CW correspondent really get narky about the idea that some football clubs would be more understandable targets than local small business?


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 27, 2015)

Batboy said:


> Unfortunately one of the common factors between the DM and U75 is the lack of understanding of the complexities of people and indeed class, life can be very polarised in these domains.. Congrats again good observation..



Working class employers.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Sep 27, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> How can the labour they do be equitable if they're rewarded differently?


In the builder's case when he did my kitchen he did different stuff to the bloke who laid the bricks, was here more, presumably did the quote and the books, etc, they didn't do the same work but if anything he did loads more


----------



## Batboy (Sep 27, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> Are your workers unionised?


 No at present I employ 4 people the minimum wage I pay is 10.00 an hour under Union rules they would earn less... In the past I have employed up to 25 people I have always paid well .. apart from myself especially considering the risks I take and the amount of hours I work... your point is?


----------



## Wolveryeti (Sep 27, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> Oh dear, buzzwording us with the latest media favourite: "virtue-signalling", *and* having quantify it as "dressed up as spokesmanship for the poor"! How do you know the economic status of the protesters? You don't, any more than you know the economic status of your interlocutors on Urban.


It's obvious from their frantic triangulations when trying to define 'working class' (as far as i can tell, their usage is synonymous with 'less successful than them')


----------



## Steel Icarus (Sep 27, 2015)

I'm fucking bored with the whole naval gazing minutiae scraping bollocks anyway, leave you all to it, will check back only to see if cw or anyone else bothers to answer the question on the local community I asked, assuming they're central or even involved in this parade thing.


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 27, 2015)

sim667 said:


> I sometimes wonder whether the labelling of class actually gives the issue of class momentum as a problem.


its probably more concrete things like the vast income gap, the social capital afforded by class, the access to better tiers of education and health, the increased life span concordant with generations of the above etc Labels aren't the problem.


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 27, 2015)

S☼I said:


> In the builder's case when he did my kitchen he did different stuff to the bloke who laid the bricks, was here more, presumably did the quote and the books, etc, they didn't do the same work but if anything he did loads more



That just sounds like self employed contractors working on jobs together. In that example, people could tender separately for the work or tender to the builder who probably will still take a cut from their labour In return for the contract. What's the point in having sub contractors if that isn't the case?


----------



## Dowie (Sep 27, 2015)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> Was I dreaming, or did our CW correspondent really get narky about the idea that some football clubs would be more understandable targets than local small business?



apparently he did

tis ridiculous that organisations that now charge very inflated ticket prices in addition to a nice earner from corporate entertainment + millions from broadcasters would be a target

clearly it is the small cereal shop selling bowls of cereal at £3.50 that are the real enemy


----------



## Batboy (Sep 27, 2015)

Fuck me I can't believe the preoccupation in this country on  class... especially on these forums... it's quite depressing


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 27, 2015)

Batboy said:


> No at present I employ 4 people the minimum wage I pay is 10.00 an hour under Union rules they would earn less... In the past I have employed up to 25 people I have always paid well .. apart from myself especially considering the risks I take and the amount of hours I work... your point is?



Wtf, what Union argues they should earn less?


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 27, 2015)

all countries have class hangups, ours may be a little more codified and shop worn arguments due to longevity of the fucking argument, but as ever people not on the wrong end want to throw up hands and go 'oh class! what is it anyway! we brits are obsessed! we are all human beings at the end of the day! bowl of Lucky Charms, on me?'


----------



## Batboy (Sep 27, 2015)

Dowie said:


> apparently he did
> 
> tis ridiculous that organisations that now charge very inflated ticket prices in addition to a nice earner from corporate entertainment + millions from broadcasters would be a target
> 
> clearly it is the small cereal shop selling bowls of cereal at £3.50 that are the real enemy



Quite amazing that not one of the supporters of anarchy/Class war on these forums including Ed have answered my question.... Why not take on Premiership football clubs? According to Calss War I am on moron for asking this question.... fucking cowards is all I can think of.... Match of the day would never be more interesting... I would be quite happy for Lineker to have a petrol bomb shoved up his rectum... come on entertain us!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 27, 2015)

free spirit said:


> sons of a Belfast builder / electrician, state educated, went to belfast poly.....
> 
> what would you call them?



_Bourgeois_.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Sep 27, 2015)

Batboy said:


> Fuck me I can't believe the preoccupation in this country on  class... especially on these forums... it's quite depressing



I can understand pre-occupation with how means of production and distribution are owned and controlled. Also, issues of privilige and petty snobbery.

But slagging off people for liking theatre, radio 4 etc (or phoney revellry in it) are utter bollocks.


----------



## free spirit (Sep 27, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> its probably more concrete things like the vast income gap, the social capital afforded by class, the access to better tiers of education and health, the increased life span concordant with generations of the above etc Labels aren't the problem.


But the issue this thread highlights is the idea that any working class kids who then dare to do something as none working class as going to the local poly / uni, and maybe ending up as a clothes shop manager after working their way up through the ranks, or owning their own cafe are then legit targets for class war.

it's a completely bullshit divisive agenda.


----------



## Batboy (Sep 27, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> Wtf, what Union argues they should earn less?



Ok perhaps that was wrong on me. Today I employed a part time cleaner on 10.00 an hour. I have recently had people working for me on a min of 12.00 an hour. I value people that work for me. I never pay min wage. My Salary over the last ten weeks has been zero. I have started a new project and in order to get it off the ground I take zero out. Very often I pay people more than I take. My strategy is long term. Not every employer is a cunt you know.


----------



## Ax^ (Sep 27, 2015)

the other brother is in the preforming arts


burn them


----------



## Blagsta (Sep 27, 2015)

Batboy said:


> No at present I employ 4 people the minimum wage I pay is 10.00 an hour *under Union rules they would earn less*... In the past I have employed up to 25 people I have always paid well .. apart from myself especially considering the risks I take and the amount of hours I work... your point is?



How so?


----------



## Batboy (Sep 27, 2015)

Blagsta said:


> How so?


How so what? please expand


----------



## Blagsta (Sep 27, 2015)

Batboy said:


> How so what? please expand



How would they earn less under union rules?  (I bolded it)


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 27, 2015)

Batboy said:


> Yep, have done for many years I am a great believer in small businesses and if anyone came to attack my business they would have the biggest fight they had ever seen.



Yes, of course they would. 



> Class war don't pick on kebab shops because the whole Turkish community would gang up and slit their throats. One of the things I noticed during the London riots was how they stood together and armed themselves.



Fucking Turks, coming over here and slitting our throats, then probably mincing us and serving us up as kebabs too!
Catch a fucking hold of yourself!



> There is a massive hole in Class wars argument in attacking certain businesses. They are cowards. Go attack a football club, they are more legitimate than some poxy pretentious cafe in Brick Lane.



Because, of course, Class War have never ever protested against the commodification of a working class sport. 



> The real shame is that I am anti corporate , I hate the financial institutions, I hate the property market situation, I hate the way the working classes have been fucked over, but if you think by attacking a small business I will support you, you can go fuck yourself.



It's fairly clear from your posts over the years that what you're anti is business getting its' claws into you, rather than you being ideologically anti-corporate or anti-capitalist.


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 27, 2015)

S☼I said:


> I'm just genuinely curious about what input local people had into the organising/objectives of the protest, and how many from the area targeted were part of this protest, ie what were the channels of communication and who was involved in the decision making



You can only protest if you live there and it directly affects you? 

Better go tell all the Palestine Solidarity pickets to piss off home then.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 27, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> Small business owners will never be 'on side'. They're fully invested in the mechanics of capital and class.



Small business people always believe that they're the exception to Marx's rule.
Right up until the hammer falls, and then they're at our throats like slavering dogs.


----------



## Batboy (Sep 27, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> Yes, of course they would.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



please point me in the direction of Class Wars direct action against Premiership football.....


----------



## ClassWar2015 (Sep 27, 2015)

S☼I said:


> Anyway, nuff of this old shite, what I'm still wondering, ClassWar2015 is



Anyone who knows anything about Class War knows many of us are local to the East End. We campaign on issues based there, such as the Poor Doors at Commercial Street and the Jack The Ripper Museum on Cable Street.

Watch this....


----------



## Batboy (Sep 27, 2015)

Blagsta said:


> How would they earn less under union rules?  (I bolded it)


I did reply to somebody less post on this question// and admitted that perhaps that was not the right context... still know and say I have always paid way above average in terms of wages and lead from the front in terms of work commitment and effort... not that would wash with many on here and perhaps including you. As an employer I have a very clear conscience, I have always treated people that work for me well, it is not always reciprocal by the way, you and others should try it before you judge.


----------



## Blagsta (Sep 27, 2015)

Batboy said:


> I did reply to somebody less post on this question// and admitted that perhaps that was not the right context... still know and say I have always paid way above average in terms of wages and lead from the front in terms of work commitment and effort... not that would wash with many on here and perhaps including you. As an employer I have a very clear conscience, I have always treated people that work for me well, it is not always reciprocal by the way, you and others should try it before you judge.



Fairynuff, I'm not judging.  I was just wondering why you thought that unions would mean your workers would be paid less.


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 27, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> Small business people always believe that they're the exception to Marx's rule.
> Right up until the hammer falls, and then they're at our throats like slavering dogs.



Straight with the cops on the counter revolution.


----------



## ska invita (Sep 27, 2015)

Batboy said:


> The real shame is that I am anti corporate , I hate the financial institutions, I hate the property market situation, I hate the way the working classes have been fucked over, but if you think by attacking a small business I will support you, you can go fuck yourself.


From what I can see, of the 3 parades all the 'attacks' have been largely damage-free, symbolic, and aimed at targets that I think you would find legitimate: financial institutions, estate agents, southwark council offices got their windows banged on... 'small businesses' are not a target, but rightly or wrongly this cereal cafe has become symbolic of hackneys/tower hamlets gentrification...why that is is hard to unpick - i think theres something deeply flippant about the concept of a cereal cafe that resonates with the flippantry of gentrification itself - both cereal cafe and gentrification seem gleefully oblivious to the reality of the lives of people around them. Let them eat imported Fruity Pebbles...

Also worth remembering that what people choose to do at a protest like this is up to them: targets arent given the seal of authority by CW central commitee! - once something like this starts its in the people who attends hands.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 27, 2015)

Batboy said:


> Do you know this is the usual shit on these forums and why I often disappear. . You cannot engage and answer intelligent questions choosing instead to cry 'racism' because that is in your mind the only way out of an argument.. Mate you are picking on the wrong person for that. fuck off or someone ban me..... Urban 75 used to be interesting it is morphing into some back slapping self congratulatory forum with central characters that have been on here since its inception. Anyone with an alternative view from the bully core is drowned out by accusations such as this.



You pretty much branded the entire Turkish community in London as throat slitters. This isn't about you being the victim of bullying, it's about you ignorantly sounding off in a way that says "all of London's Turks are murderous knife-carrying thugs".
If you can't see that, then please don't cross the road on your own, as you're obviously too dumb to be trusted to.


----------



## ClassWar2015 (Sep 27, 2015)

Batboy said:


> I did reply to somebody less post on this question// and admitted that perhaps that was not the right context... still know and say I have always paid way above average in terms of wages and lead from the front in terms of work commitment and effort... not that would wash with many on here and perhaps including you. As an employer I have a very clear conscience, I have always treated people that work for me well, it is not always reciprocal by the way, you and others should try it before you judge.



How very deeply generous of you.


----------



## Batboy (Sep 27, 2015)

ska invita said:


> From what I can see, of the 3 parades all the 'attacks' have been largely damage-free, symoblic, and aimed at targets that I think you would find legitimate: financial institutions, estate agents, southwark council offices got their windows banged on... 'small businesses' are not a target, but rightly or wrongly this cereal cafe has become symbolic of hackneys/tower hamlets gentrification...why that is is hard to unpick - i think theres something deeply flippant about the concept of a cereal cafe that resonates with the flippantry of gentrification itself - both cereal cafe and gentrification seem gleefully oblivious to the reality of the lives of people around them. Let them eat imported Fruity Pebbles...
> 
> Also worth remembering that what people choose to do at a protest like this is up to them: targets arent given the seal of authority by CW central commitee! - once something like this starts its in the people who attends hands.


Ok I get that... Why not target Premiership football clubs and smash the stadiums up?


----------



## Batboy (Sep 27, 2015)

ClassWar2015 said:


> How very deeply generous of you.


Why not target Premiership football clubs and smash the stadiums up? Please answer.... or organise....

When can we expect you at Stratford Olympic Stadium.. .surely here is not greater gentrification than this.... Go on do it I will be so impressed I may then be converted....


----------



## Ax^ (Sep 27, 2015)

Batboy said:


> Why not target Premiership football clubs and smash the stadiums up? Please answer.... or organise....



would you like to see football fans coming out to protect the clubs


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 27, 2015)

Belushi said:


> You'll have to take my word for it, but some of the anarchists who were making the most noise on here a decade ago are now following very successful professional careers.



Lifestylers, most of 'em!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 27, 2015)

stethoscope said:


> Do I recall a previous thread where boss class Batboy was upset because boss class Jewish syndicates had infiltrated his patch which is bad because Batboy is a fairer form of boss class because of his working class background?!



You remember correctly.


----------



## salem (Sep 27, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> You pretty much branded the entire Turkish community in London as throat slitters. This isn't about you being the victim of bullying, it's about you ignorantly sounding off in a way that says "all of London's Turks are murderous knife-carrying thugs".
> If you can't see that, then please don't cross the road on your own, as you're obviously too dumb to be trusted to.


Hyperbole of cereal for VP?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 27, 2015)

Ax^ said:


> any of them running pop up cafes



I wouldn't trust most lifestyle anarchists with a pop-up toaster, let alone a pop-up cafe. Daft cunts would catch their dreads alight in it.


----------



## ska invita (Sep 27, 2015)

Batboy said:


> Ok I get that... Why not target Premiership football clubs and smash the stadiums up?


Its a weird question to keep banging on about..I dont really get it. From what I can see the fuck parade thing is about expressing anger in areas of extreme gentrification - to date Aldgate/Southwark, Camden and Shoreditch - if you're angry about prem football, you go ahead and organise that.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 27, 2015)

salem said:


> Hyperbole of cereal for VP?



Did you bother to read Batboy's original throat-slitter post? No room for ambiguity.
I don't need hyperbole when someone snookers themselves so completely and utterly.


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 27, 2015)

I'd like to see an episode of eastenders where Class War target Ian Beale and nobody cares cos everyone hates Ian Beale

Jane Beale would come out to give them what for, only CW rhetoric game is so strong she does an Ulrike Meinhoff and joins the womens death brigades in burning down Ians chip van


----------



## Batboy (Sep 27, 2015)

Blagsta said:


> Fairynuff, I'm not judging.  I was just wondering why you thought that unions would mean your workers would be paid less.


In the rush of posting context mate... to be honest I know longer look at trade unions the only one that earns my respect is Bob Crowes lot... probably seems a paradox considering where I am at... but I really got Bob Crowe and respected him


----------



## tim (Sep 27, 2015)

stethoscope said:


> Do I recall a previous thread where boss class Batboy was upset because boss class Jewish syndicates had infiltrated his patch which is bad because Batboy is a fairer form of boss class because of his working class background?!



I do. Clearly Poujadism is alive and well.


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 27, 2015)

ska invita said:


> Its a weird question to keep banging on about..I dont really get it. From what I can see the fuck parade thing is about expressing anger in areas of extreme gentrification - to date Aldgate/Southwark, Camden and Shoreditch - if you're angry about prem football, you go ahead and organise that.


police presence at prem clubs is big or very quick response. And they hand out some ludicrous stretches for aggro in and around a football ground now


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 27, 2015)

Batboy said:


> They do in the eyes of many on U75. I have just worked 10 weeks with no pay every day to try and get something new off the ground.



_Cui bono_?


----------



## ska invita (Sep 27, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> police presence at prem clubs is big or very quick response. And they hand out some ludicrous stretches for aggro in and around a football ground now


theres that too


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 27, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> hey, I just checked and smoke renades are 3 quid a pop- much like the cereal! god loves his little ironies.
> 
> but yes, clearly sons of toil could never afford that. Thats why theres never any working class people at the paintballing



The working class are the only class present when I paint *my* balls, I can tell you!


----------



## Batboy (Sep 27, 2015)

ska invita said:


> From what I can see, of the 3 parades all the 'attacks' have been largely damage-free, symbolic, and aimed at targets that I think you would find legitimate: financial institutions, estate agents, southwark council offices got their windows banged on... 'small businesses' are not a target, but rightly or wrongly this cereal cafe has become symbolic of hackneys/tower hamlets gentrification...why that is is hard to unpick - i think theres something deeply flippant about the concept of a cereal cafe that resonates with the flippantry of gentrification itself - both cereal cafe and gentrification seem gleefully oblivious to the reality of the lives of people around them. Let them eat imported Fruity Pebbles...
> 
> Also worth remembering that what people choose to do at a protest like this is up to them: targets arent given the seal of authority by CW central commitee! - once something like this starts its in the people who attends hands.


 I get that and to be honest I don't have a specific sympathy t overall Cafe... but what does rile me is the way anarchists /Class war targets soft targets... go after premiership clubs and challenge the supporters and win them over... then I'm impressed. It won't happen because they won't win the fight everyone here knows that and that is why know one will confront my question/suggestion.


----------



## Batboy (Sep 27, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> You remember correctly.


context as usual.


----------



## Batboy (Sep 27, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> The working class are the only class present when I paint *my* balls, I can tell you!


too much information....


----------



## stethoscope (Sep 27, 2015)

Still don't get this tangent about  football clubs.

Anyway, much as I hate the Irons moving to the Olympic Stadium, I hate the property developers more that will re-develop Upton Park into posh apartments.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 27, 2015)

sim667 said:


> I sometimes wonder whether the labelling of class actually gives the issue of class momentum as a problem.
> 
> The notion that I somehow see myself as better or worse than everyday people I see on the street really has no basis, and I think in a vast majority of people I know the same thing could be said. Realistically that's what I can see it being about, but if it's about wealth then will someone please tell me what the benchmarks are because they seem to be moved every 15 seconds.
> 
> A discussion surrounding class almost always ends up in playing political theory big bollocks punctuated by some generalised mud slinging.



It's not about better or worse, it's about different experiences of what life is, dependent on class.
As for the benchmarks, given the utter desperation some people have about identifying the class they were raised in, good luck in getting honest answers on that!


----------



## Batboy (Sep 27, 2015)

I have to fuck off... you will be pleased to know, love and respect to you all even though you are fucking annoying....


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 27, 2015)

Batboy said:


> Fuck me I can't believe the preoccupation in this country on  class... especially on these forums... it's quite depressing



Here's the thing: Class informs everything around us. It informs how the state treats us; it informs whether our education is good or merely acceptable; it informs whether we, even given the smarts, are likely to get a place at the best universities; it informs how *others* treat us.
That you either don't realise this, or ignore it, is what is depressing.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Sep 27, 2015)

Said it before, 'they' only call it class war when we fight back!


----------



## ClassWar2015 (Sep 27, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> I'd like to see an episode of eastenders where Class War target Ian Beale and nobody cares cos everyone hates Ian Beale
> 
> Jane Beale would come out to give them what for, only CW rhetoric game is so strong she does an Ulrike Meinhoff and joins the womens death brigades in burning down Ians chip van



I can see a meme coming on.


----------



## ska invita (Sep 27, 2015)

Batboy said:


> I get that and to be honest I don't have a specific sympathy t overall Cafe... but what does rile me is the way anarchists /Class war targets soft targets... go after premiership clubs and challenge the supporters and win them over... then I'm impressed. It won't happen because they won't win the fight everyone here knows that and that is why know one will confront my question/suggestion.



As to only picking soft targets there was nothing soft on the CIty parade - right through the banking sector outnumbered by police - against the odds that day.  This is ultimately a symbolic and demonstrative action though remember - banging on some windows isnt going to make the buildings and institutions disappear...

One thing thats a bit weak at these is little to no attempt to connect with people and bring them on board. Seems the philosophy behind this is simply to be a mob, and those naturally sympathetic are drawn to the mob and don't need anything explaining to them. It may not be the most effective model, but it is what it is - and as Martin Wright points out, theres an ancient tradition of it. It is what it is, and its pointless asking , why not do this and do that.


----------



## free spirit (Sep 27, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> Here's the thing: Class informs everything around us. It informs how the state treats us; it informs whether our education is good or merely acceptable; it informs whether we, even given the smarts, are likely to get a place at the best universities; it informs how *others* treat us.
> That you either don't realise this, or ignore it, is what is depressing.


and when the sons and daughters of the true working class get the opportunity to actually go to university, and end up in jobs that aren't traditional working class roles, they then become legit targets?


----------



## ClassWar2015 (Sep 27, 2015)




----------



## ska invita (Sep 27, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> Class informs everything around us


C.R.E.A.M. get the money, dollar dollar bill yall


----------



## cantsin (Sep 27, 2015)

maomao said:


> Loads. Have you any idea of the size of their BTL portfolio? Middle class kids spending 70% of their wages to live in a shoebox somewhere trendy are just pawns in the game. I found it amusing when I read about it this morning but I don't think it was a great target tactically.



nope , had very little idea of RBS's  'BTL' portfolio, as i guess would be the case for  99.9% of the public, so maybe not the most obvious target for what was presumably meant to be an easily visible/relateable stunt, directly linked to cultural/economic gentrification in the immediate area.

Whether CKC was a "great target, tactically", as I said earlier , not 100 % convinced myself - just can't be doing with the armchair generals getting all moralistic about what looked like a vibrant, spontaneous, boredom-busting action.


----------



## Mr Retro (Sep 27, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> what a big man you are. when was thd last time you attacked someone?


I've never attacked somebody. Why do you ask?


----------



## Mr Retro (Sep 27, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> Outraged liberal magnet, this thread.


Loving that the opposite is true .


----------



## cantsin (Sep 27, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> I've never attacked somebody. Why do you ask?



you sound very up for it though, from there,behind yr keyboard ?


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 27, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> Loving that the opposite is true .



What is the opposite of an outraged liberal, out of curiosity?


----------



## Ax^ (Sep 27, 2015)

saying that immigrants from Belfast


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 27, 2015)

Ax^ said:


> saying that immigrants from Belfast



We hadn't even started combing over whether they were Loyalists or Republicans. Probably for the best.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Sep 27, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> We hadn't even started combing over whether they were Loyalists or Republicans. Probably for the best.


----------



## Ax^ (Sep 27, 2015)




----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 27, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> We hadn't even started combing over whether they were Loyalists or Republicans. Probably for the best.


sandy row loyalists for sure


----------



## Mr Retro (Sep 27, 2015)

cantsin said:


> you sound very up for it though, from there,behind yr keyboard ?


That makes no sense. I never have or never will attack somebody. But you all are very happy to back up those who attached people last night. What a skewed opinion to have


----------



## Mr Retro (Sep 27, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> What is the opposite of an outraged liberal, out of curiosity?


Ourraged pretend class warriors


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 27, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> I never have or never will attack somebody.


but you would if it was your kids, hulk out like. I would n all. But then I would never be eating cereal in cafe so its fruitless to speculate there


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Sep 27, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> That makes no sense. I never have or never will attack somebody. But you all are very happy to back up those who attached people last night. What a skewed opinion to have



Do you live in the said area of gentrification?


----------



## Ax^ (Sep 27, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> sandy row loyalists for sure



well they went to school in antrim


----------



## cantsin (Sep 27, 2015)

.


----------



## cantsin (Sep 27, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> That makes no sense. I never have or never will attack somebody. But you all are very happy to back up those who attached people last night. What a skewed opinion to have



lol

"If I was in there with my kids and some brave class warrior threw a smoke grenade into the cafe they wouldn't do it again. They'd have more pressing things on their mind"


----------



## Steel Icarus (Sep 27, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> fruitless



YOU DON'T GET FRUIT WITH IT?


----------



## Steel Icarus (Sep 27, 2015)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Do you live in the said area of gentrification?


Does anyone?


----------



## Mr Retro (Sep 27, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> but you would if it was your kids, hulk out like. I would n all. But then I would never be eating cereal in cafe so its fruitless to speculate there


Me either and I don't have kids but I'm just making a point about the cowards who attacked that cafe. Because that's what they are. If they had courage they would have attacked something meaningful, but they don't, do they didn't.


----------



## Mr Retro (Sep 27, 2015)

cantsin said:


> lol
> 
> "If I was in there with my kids and some brave class warrior threw a smoke grenade into the cafe they wouldn't do it again. They'd have more pressing things on their mind"


That would be called defending yourself. Massive fucking difference


----------



## Mr Retro (Sep 27, 2015)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Do you live in the said area of gentrification?


Mind your own fucking business


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Sep 27, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> Mind your own fucking business



So social cleansing doesn't affect you in the fuckin slightest then?


----------



## Mr Retro (Sep 27, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> Let the do nothing liberals have their little giggle.


So given this I assume you were there last night? What was your opinion from the ground of the attack on the tiny little hipster cafe?


----------



## Mr Retro (Sep 27, 2015)

Mr.Bishie said:


> So social cleansing doesn't affect you in the fuckin slightest then?


No, not saying that, it's just none of your fucking business where I live.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Sep 27, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> No, it's just none of your fucking business where I live.



So social cleansing doesn't affect YOU?


----------



## stethoscope (Sep 27, 2015)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Do you live in the said area of gentrification?



Posh pad in 'Brickers' I think.


----------



## stethoscope (Sep 27, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> Ourraged pretend class warriors



There's not much call for 'pretend' class warriors.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 27, 2015)

Batboy said:


> please point me in the direction of Class Wars direct action against Premiership football.....



Please stop using your gibberings about premiership football as a means of avoiding admitting being a daft fuck with regard to impugning London's Turks.


----------



## Dowie (Sep 27, 2015)

ska invita said:


> Seems the philosophy behind this is simply to be a mob, and those naturally sympathetic are drawn to the mob and don't need anything explaining to them. It may not be the most effective model, but it is what it is - and as Martin Wright points out, theres an ancient tradition of it. It is what it is, and its pointless asking , why not do this and do that.



so basically just like the right wing types who attack mosques - they look like the sort of people we're angry with....

tis just mindless, you can't really justify attacking a small cafe....


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 27, 2015)

in many ways it reminds me of kristelnacht


----------



## Mr Retro (Sep 27, 2015)

stethoscope said:


> Posh pad in 'Brickers' I think.


News to me but thanks for your input!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 27, 2015)

Batboy said:


> context as usual.



I recall the context.


----------



## cantsin (Sep 27, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> That would be called defending yourself. Massive fucking difference





Mr Retro said:


> That would be called defending yourself. Massive fucking difference



no, I think its called " talking a good talk on the interweb"


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 27, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> I've never attacked somebody. Why do you ask?


because you've said you'd abandon your family in a smoke-filled shop, if someone tossed in a smoke grenade, to attack the person who did it.


----------



## Mr Retro (Sep 27, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> because you've said you'd abandon your family in a smoke-filled shop, if someone tossed in a smoke grenade, to attack the person who did it.


No I didn't


----------



## stethoscope (Sep 27, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> News to me but thanks for your input!



Then no need to be quite so coy is there


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 27, 2015)

free spirit said:


> and when the sons and daughters of the true working class get the opportunity to actually go to university, and end up in jobs that aren't traditional working class roles, they then become legit targets?



Are they still workers? If they earn their crust through selling their labour, they're workers.
If they own or part-own the business that employs them, then they're _bourgeois_.
If they own the means of production, then they're ruling class.

That isn't about targets, or about degree of education, or about any other obscuring factor you care to throw up, it's about some fairly simple definitions, and about which applies to you. What it isn't about is which one you apply to yourself, or believe applies to you.


----------



## free spirit (Sep 27, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> Please stop using your gibberings about premiership football as a means of avoiding admitting being a daft fuck with regard to impugning London's Turks.


seemed like he was more impuning class war for picking on easy targets while praising the turkish community for being the sort of community that would stand together and defend their community and businesses.



> When the rioters came to attack the premises of Kurdish and Turkish businesses in Hackney's Stoke Newington High Street and Kingsland Road on Monday night, the owners were waiting for them.
> 
> "It was between about nine and 10 at night," said Yilmaz Karagoz, sitting in his coffee shop next to a jeweller's shop that has been shuttered since Sunday when the rioting began and a pharmacy that closed a day after.
> 
> "There were a lot of them. We came out of our shops but the police asked us to do nothing. But the police did not do anything so, as more came, we chased them off ourselves." The staff from a local kebab restaurant ran at the attackers, doner knives in their hands. "I don't think they will be coming back," Karagoz said.


London riots: 'People are fighting back. It's their neighbourhoods at stake'


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 27, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> No I didn't


yeh, you spelt it out clear enough - 'they'd have more pressing things on their mind'


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 27, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> in many ways it reminds me of kristelnacht



Careful! You'll summon that muppet Hertford!!!


----------



## Dowie (Sep 27, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> Are they still workers? If they earn their crust through selling their labour, they're workers.
> If they own or part-own the business that employs them, then they're _bourgeois_.
> If they own the means of production, then they're ruling class.



so the checkout person at Waitrose is bourgeois but some trader at Deutsche Bank is a 'worker'

that seems like a really sensible way of categorising people today...


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 27, 2015)

free spirit said:


> seemed like he was more impuning class war for picking on easy targets while praising the turkish community for being the sort of community that would stand together and defend their community and businesses.
> 
> 
> London riots: 'People are fighting back. It's their neighbourhoods at stake'



Perhaps you should read his post again, where baldly states that people won't attack the Turkish community because they'd get their throats slit, ergo London's Turkish community *must*, by that logic, be comprised of throat slitters.


----------



## fredfelt (Sep 27, 2015)

editor said:


> Can't say I'd feel much hope for my High Street if places like that took over the existing shops.



If places like that took over the existing shops on every high street there would be no hope!  But variety is what makes the highstreet interesting.  Endless identikit chains springing up everywhere offers no hope.


----------



## free spirit (Sep 27, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> Are they still workers? If they earn their crust through selling their labour, they're workers.
> If they own or part-own the business that employs them, then they're _bourgeois_.
> If they own the means of production, then they're ruling class.
> 
> That isn't about targets, or about degree of education, or about any other obscuring factor you care to throw up, it's about some fairly simple definitions, and about which applies to you. What it isn't about is which one you apply to yourself, or believe applies to you.


so were these 2 a legitimate target for an organisation called class war?

For me they're not, for others they apparently are due to having beards, and daring to open a cafe.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 27, 2015)

Dowie said:


> so the checkout person at Waitrose is bourgeois but some trader at Deutsche Bank is a 'worker'
> 
> that seems like a really sensible way of categorising people today...



The person working at Waitrose isn't a partner in any meaningful sense of the word, they're a member of a co-operative that pays them a small premium. That's all.
A trader, by the way isn't a worker either, as their employment T & Cs are more akin to those of retained self-employed professions like lawyering and accountancy.

Well done on your attempts, but 0/2 is a crap score.


----------



## JimW (Sep 27, 2015)

If I was attacked in a cereal cafe I might snap, or maybe crackle and pop.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Sep 27, 2015)

free spirit said:


> so were these 2 a legitimate target for an organisation called class war?
> 
> For me they're not, for others they apparently are due to having beards, and daring to open a cafe.




Charging £3.50 for a bowl of cereal, they should have been hung from lamp posts.

Ps. And if you haven't read the thread they called this 'attack' a 'hate crime'!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 27, 2015)

free spirit said:


> so were these 2 a legitimate target for an organisation called class war?
> 
> For me they're not, for others they apparently are due to having beards, and daring to open a cafe.



Were they a *legitimate* target insofar as representing the _bourgeoisie_? Yes.
Were they a *worthwhile* target? Not in my opinion. I'd have preferred to see the smoke grenade shoved up a copper's tunic.


----------



## Dowie (Sep 27, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> The person working at Waitrose isn't a partner in any meaningful sense of the word, they're a member of a co-operative that pays them a small premium. That's all.
> A trader, by the way isn't a worker either, as their employment T & Cs are more akin to those of retained self-employed professions like lawyering and accountancy.
> 
> Well done on your attempts, but 0/2 is a crap score.



nah they both fit your original definitions - you're just trying crap excuses to keep it relevant to today's society

we can try receptionist in a company that operates a share scheme vs highly paid corporate lawyer who earns a salary... if you like


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 27, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh, you spelt it out clear enough - 'they'd have more pressing things on their mind'



He meant they'd be busy blocking their ears to his whining.


----------



## free spirit (Sep 27, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> Perhaps you should read his post again, where baldly states that people won't attack the Turkish community because they'd get their throats slit, ergo London's Turkish community *must*, by that logic, be comprised of throat slitters.


made up of people who'd defend their community and businesses with meat cleavers when dickheads decide to attack their businesses.

and I've got nothing but respect for them for taking that 'don't fuck with us' approach.

would they actually have slit the throats of any they'd caught smashing their businesses up, probably not, but I doubt the meat cleavers were just for show, they would have used them if needed.


----------



## Blagsta (Sep 27, 2015)

Personally, I'm a bit meh about targetting this cafe, but this video is interesting


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 27, 2015)

Dowie said:


> nah they both fit your original definitions - you're just trying crap excuses to keep it relevant to today's society



Says the bloke who's clearly barely informed on the subject. Wilful ignorance from someone who needs to believe that their viewpoint is right.


----------



## Dowie (Sep 27, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> Says the bloke who's clearly barely informed on the subject. Wilful ignorance from someone who needs to believe that their viewpoint is right.



it is/was right - just pointing out flaws in those definitions as they were presented - you then tried feeble excuses to keep them relevant


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 27, 2015)

free spirit said:


> made up of people who'd defend their community and businesses with meat cleavers when dickheads decide to attack their businesses.
> 
> and I've got nothing but respect for them for taking that 'don't fuck with us' approach.
> 
> would they actually have slit the throats of any they'd caught smashing their businesses up, probably not, but I doubt the meat cleavers were just for show, they would have used them if needed.



So why did the arse state what he did? He could have said "give them a shoeing" and no-one would have disagreed with him, but instead he trotted out some _macho_ throat-slitting bullshit that stated that the Turkish community in London is comprised entirely of throat-slitters.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 27, 2015)

Dowie said:


> it is/was right - just pointing out flaws in those definitions as they were presented - you then tried feeble excuses to keep them relevant



Well you would say that,wouldn't you? You're hardly going to say "you're right,VP", even if you thought I was.


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 27, 2015)

the classical definitions of class a la marx and others have been the subject of near a centuries worth of defining for  current generation and age and so forth. Demographics is class analysis by another name.

As usual prats who've spent less than thirty seconds thought on the matter sieze upon a complexity and declare class a dead concept. As you do when you aren't on the shit end of it


----------



## Dowie (Sep 27, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> Well you would say that,wouldn't you? You're hardly going to say "you're right,VP", even if you thought I was.



likewise

but you're putting forth definitions that don't work well today - there are plenty of highly paid 'workers' out there and plenty of supposed bourgeoisie (whether they own a large or small stake in the business they work for) who are much worse off than them


----------



## Mr Retro (Sep 27, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> He meant they'd be busy blocking their ears to his whining.


Shut up "violent" panda, you crashing bore


----------



## Dowie (Sep 27, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> As usual prats who've spent less than thirty seconds thought on the matter sieze upon a complexity and declare class a dead concept. As you do when you aren't on the shit end of it



its hardly a 'complexity' - it is pointing out that clinging onto outdated ideas is pretty silly in today's society

yet there are still a few prats who want to do that and try to argue away the obvious anomalies with crap excuses


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 27, 2015)

_but the self employed sparky owns his own tools- thats the means right?_


----------



## Blagsta (Sep 27, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> the classical definitions of class a la marx and others have been the subject of near a centuries worth of defining for  current generation and age and so forth. Demographics is class analysis by another name.
> 
> As usual prats who've spent less than thirty seconds thought on the matter sieze upon a complexity and declare class a dead concept. As you do when you aren't on the shit end of it



Marx was also clear that he wasn't talking about individuals, but the roles that people play in an economy.


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 27, 2015)

Dowie said:


> its hardly a 'complexity' - it is pointing out that clinging onto outdated ideas is pretty silly in today's society


well, you'll have to inform those at the FT and similar journals, advertisers and marketers who still take the classical definitions as articulated through modern lenses as useful


----------



## Dowie (Sep 27, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> well, you'll have to inform those at the FT and similar journals, advertisers and marketers who still take the classical definitions as articulated through modern lenses as useful



why do I have to do that?


----------



## free spirit (Sep 27, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> So why did the arse state what he did? He could have said "give them a shoeing" and no-one would have disagreed with him, but instead he trotted out some _macho_ throat-slitting bullshit that stated that the Turkish community in London is comprised entirely of throat-slitters.


you don't give someone a kicking with a meat cleaver.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 27, 2015)

free spirit said:


> you don't give someone a kicking with a meat cleaver.


a serious kicking


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 27, 2015)

Dowie said:


> why do I have to do that?


because you have declared the old analysis dead, they should be informed. Else they'll continue on with the manifest foolishness


----------



## J Ed (Sep 27, 2015)

Dowie said:


> likewise
> 
> but you're putting forth definitions that don't work well today - there are plenty of highly paid 'workers' out there and plenty of supposed bourgeoisie (whether they own a large or small stake in the business they work for) who are much worse off than them



Aren't you the one with the website where you lust after Condie Rice? Is that what we should devote ourselves to instead of class?


----------



## Dowie (Sep 27, 2015)

J Ed said:


> Aren't you the one with the website where you lust after Condie Rice? Is that what we should devote ourselves to instead of class?



I think you're confusing me with someone else, I've not got any website where I 'lust after Condie Rice'. Perhaps there is some other 'Dowie' somewhere else on the internet who has, I'm certainly not the only person out there with this username.


----------



## free spirit (Sep 27, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> because you have declared the old analysis dead, they should be informed. Else they'll continue on with the manifest foolishness


IMO the only class war worth fighting would be against the upper class. 

All the classes from A-E are interchangable within a generation / by the same person within a lifetime, whereas the upper class are a tiny proportion of the country who own the vast majority of the wealth and intend to keep it and use it and their influence over government to ensure that they and their children get to accumulate an ever greater proportion of it.

They're the real class enemy not 2 belfast lads who've opened a cafe.


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 27, 2015)

J Ed said:


> Aren't you the one with the website where you lust after Condie Rice? Is that what we should devote ourselves to instead of class?


no thats Peter Dow 

Dowie might not be on the same page as me but Peter Dow isn't even reading the same book as everyone else. He has invented his own book


----------



## J Ed (Sep 27, 2015)

Dowie said:


> I think you're confusing me with someone else, I've not got any website where I 'lust after Condie Rice'. Perhaps there is some other 'Dowie' somewhere else on the internet who has, I'm certainly not the only person out there with this username.



Oh I thought that this was you


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 27, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> Ourraged pretend class warriors



This doesn't work as outrage isn't the opposite of outrage and pretend class warriors isn't the opposite of liberals.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 27, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> Shut up "violent" panda, you crashing bore



Go piss up a rope.


----------



## Dowie (Sep 27, 2015)

J Ed said:


> Oh I thought that this was you



Out of interest, what made you think that person was me?


----------



## Mr Retro (Sep 27, 2015)

The art of the insult is truly dead


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 27, 2015)

free spirit said:


> you don't give someone a kicking with a meat cleaver.



And if you've got any sense,the meat cleaver is only set-dressing.


----------



## free spirit (Sep 27, 2015)

Dowie said:


> Out of interest, what made you think that person was me?


peter dow / dowie, name similarity presumably.


----------



## Mr Retro (Sep 27, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> This doesn't work as outrage isn't the opposite of outrage and pretend class warriors isn't the opposite of liberals.


Cheers for that. "I can't go to bed. Somebody on the internet is wrong"


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 27, 2015)

J Ed said:


> Aren't you the one with the website where you lust after Condie Rice? Is that what we should devote ourselves to instead of class?



No, that's the disgusting Peter Dow.


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 27, 2015)

S☼I said:


> Does anyone?



Right, who's gonna admit to living in Hoxton?


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 27, 2015)

free spirit said:


> IMO the only class war worth fighting would be against the upper class.


against the system itself- one that will pit worker against worker and he who owns his house against he who don't. However we are not immune to anger at agents within a system who are ripping the piss ( I mock the cereal cafe but as I have said, silly target and the estate agents was more valid). And I wouldn't overestimate that fluidity you mention- it exists to a degree (lol) but is rapidly becoming the exception not the norm.


----------



## tim (Sep 27, 2015)

Dowie said:


> I think you're confusing me with someone else, I've not got any website where I 'lust after Condie Rice'. Perhaps there is some other 'Dowie' somewhere else on the internet who has, I'm certainly not the only person out there with this username.



Peter Dow, the Scottish Standard Bearer.


----------



## J Ed (Sep 27, 2015)

Dowie said:


> Out of interest, what made you think that person was me?



Same name, and he seems like he'd not be much into class either, you are a lot more coherent though so it was a silly assumption tbh


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 27, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> Me either and I don't have kids but I'm just making a point about the cowards who attacked that cafe. Because that's what they are. If they had courage they would have attacked something meaningful, but they don't, do they didn't.



So you acted hard on the Internet over somewhere you'd  never visit defending kids you don't have?


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 27, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> So given this I assume you were there last night? What was your opinion from the ground of the attack on the tiny little hipster cafe?



I wasn't there last night. I would have been if I was in London though. Saturdays are awkward days for smashing up cereal bars for me.


----------



## free spirit (Sep 27, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> And if you've got any sense,the meat cleaver is only set-dressing.


maybe.

Different community, but I used to live on the edge of china town in Newcastle. During that time IIRC there were 2 occasions of people being properly attacked with meat cleavers, one of which died on the pavement 50 yards from my house.

Sometimes the person running at you with a meat cleaver really intends to use it on you, and if they spend all day using it to cut animal carcasses up the chances are they'd do you some serious damage with it and not think too much about it.


----------



## Tankus (Sep 27, 2015)

I hope the cafe get more business on the back of this.........

If "they" wanted to make a point .....then why didn't they go to fukkin tescos


----------



## Dowie (Sep 27, 2015)

J Ed said:


> Same name, and he seems like he'd not be much into class either, you are a lot more coherent though so it was a silly assumption tbh



tis more that I think certain definitions of class are flawed these days - I'm not trying to rubbish the idea of class itself

but I guess arguments over 'class' are probably overdone on here anyway


----------



## J Ed (Sep 27, 2015)

I wish that people could get half as upset over the persecution of the disabled in this country as they can over a couple of whining hipsters' business.


----------



## free spirit (Sep 27, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> against the system itself- one that will pit worker against worker and he who owns his house against he who don't. However we are not immune to anger at agents within a system who are ripping the piss ( I mock the cereal cafe but as I have said, silly target and the estate agents was more valid). And I wouldn't overestimate that fluidity you mention- it exists to a degree (lol) but is rapidly becoming the exception not the norm.


The fluidity is decreasing between the bottom and the very top, but less so between the working class and the lower middle class / small business owners / self employed. 50% or so of kids are going to university now, so a lot more will end up not being viewed as trad working class, but will still ultimately be fucking skint and tied into selling their labour to survive for their entire lives one way or another.


----------



## Mr Retro (Sep 27, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> So you acted hard on the Internet over somewhere you'd  never visit defending kids you don't have?


I was making a hypothetical point. But to make things clear: if I was in that cafe with my wife and niece or nephew and some twat attacked us in the way that the cafe was attacked last night, I would defend them vigorously and kick six colours of shit out of the person who attacked us.

I understand it's a posturing twattish thing to say facelessly on the Internet, but it's plain fact. Anybody who claims they wouldn't act the same way is lying. Or a coward.


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 27, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> Cheers for that. "I can't go to bed. Somebody on the internet is wrong"



You've given up on what you meant then?


----------



## cantsin (Sep 27, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> So you acted hard on the Internet over somewhere you'd  never visit defending kids you don't have?



Lol, Ffs....


----------



## J Ed (Sep 27, 2015)

free spirit said:


> The fluidity is decreasing between the bottom and the very top, but less so between the working class and the lower middle class / small business owners / self employed. 50% or so of kids are going to university now, so a lot more will end up not being viewed as trad working class, but will still ultimately be fucking skint and tied into selling their labour to survive for their entire lives one way or another.



I agree with this. If you're from a working-class background, but you go to uni and then after that all you can get is work in a call centre, a warehouse or a supermarket then are you really in any different of a position thanks to your education? You might _feel_ slightly different but your class position has to be the same.


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 27, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> I was making a hypothetical point. But to make things clear: if I was in that cafe with my wife and niece or nephew and some twat attacked us in the way that the cafe was attacked last night, I would defend them vigorously and kick six colours of shit out of the person who attacked us.
> 
> I understand it's a posturing twattish thing to say facelessly on the Internet, but it's plain fact. Anybody who claims they wouldn't act the same way is lying. Or a coward.



So if you were in a cafe with your wife and neice, and someone threw in a smoke grenade, you'd go outside and start kicking shit out of a 200+ strong mob?


----------



## Mr Retro (Sep 27, 2015)

Tankus said:


> I hope the cafe get more business on the back of this.........
> 
> If "they" wanted to make a point .....then why didn't they go to fukkin tescos


Because Tesco wouldn't stand for it and their would have been serious repercussions. So they weren't quite prepared to stand up for their principles to that extent ....


----------



## cantsin (Sep 27, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> I was making a hypothetical point. But to make things clear: if I was in that cafe with my wife and niece or nephew and some twat attacked us in the way that the cafe was attacked last night, I would defend them vigorously and kick six colours of shit out of the person who attacked us.
> 
> I understand it's a posturing twattish thing to say facelessly on the Internet, but it's plain fact. Anybody who claims they wouldn't act the same way is lying. Or a coward.



Jeez, taking interweb hard man bizness on to new and abstract terrain  - impressive stuff , I'm convinced , fo shure.


----------



## free spirit (Sep 27, 2015)

J Ed said:


> I agree with this. If you're from a working-class background, but you go to uni and then after that all you can get is work in a call centre, a warehouse or a supermarket then are you really in any different of a position thanks to your education? You might _feel_ slightly different but your class position has to be the same.


not just if you're working in a warehouse etc. nurses, doctors, whatever.

unless they're working specifically in a position of managing the upper class attacks on the rest of us, then it's counter productive bollocks to treat them as being the enemy. It's just playing into the hands of the upper class's divide and conquer tactics.


----------



## Mr Retro (Sep 27, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> So if you were in a cafe with your wife and neice, and someone threw in a smoke grenade, you'd go outside and start kicking shit out of a 200+ strong mob?


No, just the guy who threw the smoke bomb.


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 27, 2015)

free spirit said:


> 50% or so of kids are going to university now


less and less from w/c backgrounds and lower income families what with the fee hikes and ucas points upramped. Shit state of affairs all round but a lifetime of toil in semi skilled labour has been the reality for most of us for a long long long time. The days where a uni degree bought you access to a certain rung on the job or academic market vanished long before I was out of short trousers


----------



## Mr Retro (Sep 27, 2015)

cantsin said:


> Jeez, taking interweb hard man bizness on to new and abstract terrain  - impressive stuff , I'm convinced , fo shure.


What would you do? Sit there and let it happen? Genuine question.


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 27, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> No, just the guy who threw the smoke bomb.



And everyone would stand back and not object to this. You need to work on your hypotheticals I think before enacting any of this.


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 27, 2015)

J Ed said:


> I agree with this. If you're from a working-class background, but you go to uni and then after that all you can get is work in a call centre, a warehouse or a supermarket then are you really in any different of a position thanks to your education? You might _feel_ slightly different but your class position has to be the same.


if its between you and the bloke with a degree for supervisors position it might swing it.


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 27, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> What would you do? Sit there and let it happen? Genuine question.



I'd go "oh haha a smoke grenade, oh even better - they're daubing graffiti on this shit place"


----------



## Mr Retro (Sep 27, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> And everyone would stand back and not object to this. You need to work on your hypotheticals I think before enacting any of this.


Same question to you, genuinely what would you do? 

And you know what I bet nobody would jump on for their smoke bomb growing buddy, because these people are cowards at the end of the day.


----------



## cantsin (Sep 27, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> What would you do? Sit there and let it happen? Genuine question.



Not being funny, but I manage to avoid making ridiculous claims about what I'd do in imaginary situations trying to protect hypothetical members of my family - that's what I'd do / do do / da da da


----------



## Mr Retro (Sep 27, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> I'd go "oh haha a smoke grenade, oh even better - they're daubing graffiti on this shit place"


Ok but that's if you feel there is no threat. I'd do the same in that case. But the reports are that the kids in there were terrified. Who in their right mind would sit back and do nothing?


----------



## Mr Retro (Sep 27, 2015)

cantsin said:


> Not being funny, but I manage to avoid making ridiculous claims about what I'd do in imaginary situations trying to protect hypothetical members of my family - that's what I'd do / do do .


That's one way of avoiding an answer.


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 27, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> Same question to you, genuinely what would you do?
> 
> And you know what I bet nobody would jump on for their smoke bomb growing buddy, because these people are cowards at the end of the day.



Did you find it clever that I answered the question before you asked it?


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 27, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> Ok but that's if you feel there is no threat. I'd do the same in that case. But the reports are that the kids in there were terrified. Who in their right mind would sit back and do nothing?



Okay, if I was in a situation where my family were frightened by a theatrical demonstration, the last thing I'd do would be to turn it into something physically violent.


----------



## J Ed (Sep 27, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> Same question to you, genuinely what would you do?
> 
> And you know what I bet nobody would jump on for their smoke bomb growing buddy, because these people are cowards at the end of the day.



I would swagger outside of the café and demand to speak with the ringleader of the sorry band of brigands. Then I would say to him, "you think that you're so brave and that you can mess with swashbuckling small business owners from Ireland who have pulled themselves up by their bootstraps with sugar-laden American cereal?! Well if you are so great then you can fight me one on one, I am fighting in the name of my as yet nonexistent and purely hypothetical children" 

The brigade of renegades would then form a circle around us, jeering me and cheering on their ringleader but slowly the fight would start to go my way and I would win the respect of the reprobates. They would suddenly look at each other as if they had awoken from a deep slumber, their slogans changing from "class war" and "we have new homes for the rich" to "individual liberty for all", "respect private property rights now!" then we would all work together to put right the wrongs that had been wrought but not before forming an orderly queue for an £18 bowl of cereal each.


----------



## Mr Retro (Sep 27, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> Okay, if I was in a situation where my family were frightened by a theatrical demonstration, the last thing I'd do would be to turn it into something physically violent.


It wasn't theatrical though, it was very real. But now we're getting into semantics and we've both made our points.


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 27, 2015)

Batboy said:


> Yep because society  will really work without trading of any kind.



Society can function without trading. If trading is needed, we don't need a special class of people doing it.


----------



## sim667 (Sep 27, 2015)

J Ed said:


> I would swagger outside of the café and demand to speak with the ringleader of the sorry band of brigands. Then I would say to him, "you think that you're so brave and that you can mess with swashbuckling small business owners from Ireland who have pulled themselves up by their bootstraps with sugar-laden American cereal?! Well if you are so great then you can fight me one on one, I am fighting in the name of my as yet nonexistent and purely hypothetical children"
> 
> The brigade of renegades would then form a circle around us, jeering me and cheering on their ringleader but slowly the fight would start to go my way and I would win the respect of the reprobates. They would suddenly look at each other as if they had awoken from a deep slumber, their slogans changing from "class war" and "we have new homes for the rich" to "individual liberty for all", "respect private property rights now!" then we would all work together to put right the wrongs that had been wrought but not before forming an orderly queue for an £18 bowl of cereal each.



I was hoping this was going to turn into an erotic thriller by the end of the second paragraph. Am disappoint.


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 27, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> It wasn't theatrical though, it was very real. But now we're getting into semantics and we've both made our points.



Smoke grenades are theatrical. You know some dissent involves non theatrical grenades? Be happy.


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 27, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> Society can function without trading. If trading is needed, we don't need a special class of people doing it.


market exchange/barter/currency as a social technology. All these things predate capitalism by orders of centuries. As you know. The coolest trick capital ever pulled was telling people that exchange of goods and services was unthinkable without the element of exploitation through wage labour. Thats some trick.


----------



## cantsin (Sep 27, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> Same question to you, genuinely what would you do?
> 
> And you know what I bet nobody would jump on for their smoke bomb growing buddy, because these people are cowards at the end of the day.



That lot ( CW etc ) have done a bit over the years - but yre prob right, they'd shit it from the imaginary interweb top bod


----------



## Mr Retro (Sep 27, 2015)

cantsin said:


> That lot ( CW etc ) have done a bit over the years - but yre prob right, they'd shit it from the imaginary interweb top bod


Still haven't said what you'd do


----------



## pocketscience (Sep 27, 2015)

stethoscope said:


> Do I recall a previous thread where boss class Batboy was upset because boss class Jewish syndicates had infiltrated his patch which is bad because Batboy is a fairer form of boss class because of his working class background?!


Yeah the small business owner vs property developer one.
It went from "small businesses can fuck-off" to defending large multi-national business and the moral justification of private property ownership.
Confussed the fuck out of me, hearing people that appear to identify themselves as anarchists/ communists defending the likes of Apple Inc as well as property developers and private home ownership.


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 27, 2015)

pocketscience said:


> Yeah the small business owner vs property developer one.
> It went from "small businesses can fuck-off" to defending large multi-national business and the moral justification of private property ownership.
> Confussed the fuck out of me, hearing people that appear to identify themselves as anarchists/ communists defending the likes of Apple Inc as well as property developers and private home ownership.



Who did that? People who identify as those things on here are a smaller group than you probably think btw.


----------



## cantsin (Sep 27, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> Still haven't said what you'd do



I'd go toe to toe with the whole ( reported) 200 of them, but I'm a bit tasty, like you  -  wldnt recommend that for yr avge punter


----------



## pocketscience (Sep 27, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> Who did that? People who identify as those things on here are a smaller group than you probably think btw.


who  did what?


----------



## free spirit (Sep 27, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> Society can function without trading.


bollocks.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Sep 27, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> Because Tesco wouldn't stand for it and their would have been serious repercussions. So they weren't quite prepared to stand up for their principles to that extent ....



While this is barbed in tone there may well be something to it. However, there's another angle that could be more sympathetic to the mob (a word cited proudly in the YT upthread posted by someone calling themselves "Class War")

How do you target the real elite indiciduals causing these problems? Well one barely can. Many of them - the global billionaires buying up posh flats to leave empty as a moneybox for laundering etc. aint even in this country. Those in this country are behind rings of steel and private security.

Even if you smash the fuck out of a Tescos or Mcdonalds etc. the only people who are going to be traumatised in the midst of the actual event are the shop-floor working class.

There's something about the fairly low-grade nature of many targets that smacks of being pathetic in the original sense of the word.

Though it was always difficult to physically unseat and intimidate the mighty, it has probably never been harder.


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 27, 2015)

pocketscience said:


> who  did what?



What you accused people of in your post.


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 27, 2015)

free spirit said:


> bollocks.



We'd collapse if goods aren't bought and sold? No wonder you voted lib dem as your most radical act ever. You're fucking plastic.


----------



## pocketscience (Sep 27, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> What you accused people of in your post.


I' m not going to give you a list of names. You'll need to read the thread if you don't trust me.


----------



## free spirit (Sep 27, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> We'd collapse if goods aren't bought and sold? No wonder you voted lib dem as your most radical act ever. You're fucking plastic.


how would you as an electrician eat without trading your services with others who grow food?

that was one of the most ridiculous statements I've seen on here. I was trying to work out which was the last society that existed without trading, and can't think of one after the neanderthalls, who I remember reading a while back are now thought to have failed to survive the last ice age because they didn't trade sufficiently with other communities to allow them to adapt to survive the chance in their situation.

eta yeah voting lib dem was really my most radical act ever... clueless.


----------



## xenon (Sep 27, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> We'd collapse if goods aren't bought and sold? No wonder you voted lib dem as your most radical act ever. You're fucking plastic.


 Don't paint yourself in a daft corner. Of course there would be trade in a postcapitalist society.  Like that was before.  Like   There always has been.


----------



## xenon (Sep 27, 2015)

Anyway serial cafe, daft target. But indicative  and symptomatic of the wider anger.


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 28, 2015)

How would I exist in a society that didn't have trade as its core mechanism? Is this the only model that can work then? How do things develop that don't involve trade?


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 28, 2015)

well there has to be some mechanism (or mechanisms) for the exchange of goods and services. No man is a swiss army knife of talents to build a train and plough a field and then run a market stall. Interesting to note that some of the tokens of exchange between early tribal socities signified less the value of the item but its currency as a signifier, not too far removed from how our currency today is utterly worthless in what it is but in what it symbolises and how it is backed is the thing. Neverheless, exchange and money as a technology are not capitalism and no amount of revisionism will change that


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 28, 2015)

xenon said:


> Don't box yourself in a daft corner. Of course there would be trade in a postcapitalist society.  Like that was before.  Like   There always has been.



No, you don't box yourself in a corner.


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 28, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> well there has to be some mechanism (or mechanisms) for the exchange of goods and services. No man is a swiss army knife of talents to build a train and plough a field and then run a market stall.



This presupposes individualism. For some reason?


----------



## xenon (Sep 28, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> No, you don't box yourself in a corner.


 I meant paint  I blame the mention of cereal.


----------



## xenon (Sep 28, 2015)

Debt  the first 5000 years by David Greaber.  Goes into pre  capitalist trading, money, tokens of exchange quite a bit.


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 28, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> This presupposes individualism. For some reason?


nah, even in an interdependant web there will always be need for tokens of exchange and trading. Nobody said it had to be capitalist in nature. But it is neccesary, even in the days of 'king for as far as I can send a warband to'. Currency itself is not capitalist. Well, it is now what with speculators and all, but as a basic means of facillitating exchange of needs its not


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 28, 2015)

dp


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 28, 2015)

the reason I mentioned 'no man is a swiss army knife' was to emphasize interdependence rather than presuppose individualism


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 28, 2015)

xenon said:


> Debt  the first 5000 years by David Greaber.  Goes into pre  capitalist trading, money, tokens of exchange quite a bit.


I read the simpletons version 'Money: an unauthorized biography' lol


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 28, 2015)

Fair enough. But my point was less about what it would look like, and more countering the statement "a society couldn't function without trade". Stripped down, all a society does is produces stuff and distributes it. We could argue that the distribution is trade if we want and even the supply. But it normally means  something different to that. And I don't necessarily think post capitalism equates to barter systems. There's loads of examples of this stuff happening alongside what we have now presently. Such as open source software. How does that come about without trade or bartering?


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 28, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> Such as open source software. How does that come about without trade or bartering?


thats the intellectual capital of someone else given away for free by that person. The value there comes from his or her education to the abillity to craft the software, the capital to afford the machines on which they work and so on. No it isn't crops growing from the ground but its value has been added by a worker- if they the give such away free then god bless em one n all.



Citizen66 said:


> post capitalism equates to barter systems.


it doesn't have to. There would need to be markers though. Currency grew up as a way of placing markers on barter exchange over distance. S'all it is. The arcana of speculating and..dum dum dum....interest grew up with it.


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 28, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> thats the intellectual capital of someone else given away for free by that person. The value there comes from his or her education to the abillity to craft the software, the capital to afford the machines on which they work and so on. No it isn't crops growing from the ground but its value has been added by a worker- if they the give such away free then god bless em one n all.



But it's interesting that the former has chosen to do this. Rather than profit from it. Actually not even profit from it, not even be paid for it. Now, obviously they're in the financial position to be able to do that. And the latter couldn't because they're not in the financial position to do that. But what if they were? Isn't this what free communism is? We all produce knowing that at the end of it all we're not going to be evicted and we'll be well fed, have nice stuff etc? It's interesting that things such as Linux came about without profit in mind.


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 28, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> It's interesting that things such as Linux came about without profit in mind.


once software exists it can be copied for nothing. I can't grow a turnip and then run off 50 copies of it in the space of five minutes. Theres different limitations on different produce. I recall being outraged at the very idea of market speculation on agriculture- thats people betting on a crop that doesn't fucking exist yet! madness. 'Futures' ffs. What happens  when the wheat gets wheat aids or when the pig herd gets some horrible pig disease. Ent no payment on what the twats have been bartering in abstract over cos the herd is dead


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 28, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> once software exists it can be copied for nothing. I can't grow a turnip and then run off 50 copies of it in the space of five minutes. Theres different limitations on different produce. I recall being outraged at the very idea of market speculation on agriculture- thats people betting on a crop that doesn't fucking exist yet! madness. 'Futures' ffs. What happens  when the wheat gets wheat aids or when the pig herd gets some horrible pig disease. Ent no payment on what the twats have been bartering in abstract over cos the herd is dead



Whilst I agree it isn't a good example of a direct comparison, you make out that this software has now been written and can be shared forever more. Rather than the reality of it being an ongoing project involving thousands of people that continues to grow and branch out into new things and ideas. The difference between this happening freely in software but not in the fields is that computers don't have an equivalent of the enclosures act, imo.


----------



## xenon (Sep 28, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> I read the simpletons version 'Money: an unauthorized biography' lol


 Don't get me wrong, I can't claim to have a full understanding of it. But I did find it fascinating. I like those  anthropological, political, type books.  Rather than pure   Theoretical.


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 28, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> Whilst I agree it isn't a good example of a direct comparison, you make out that this software has now been written and can be shared forever more. Rather than the reality of it being an ongoing project involving thousands of people that continues to grow and branch out into new things and ideas. The difference between this happening freely in software but not in the fields is that computers don't have an equivalent of the enclosures act, imo.


the analogies will never mesh really because I can say that farming is a millenia long crowdsourced project eventually corraled into the hands of a few at the expense of us all, but the produce- the hypothetical turnip- will always take months to grow. No matter how clever or complex the coding, once its done it can be straight copied in a matter of minutes. The problem with distributing physical resources equitably without tokens of exchange or marker would be enormous. Reminds me of that anti piracy ad 'YOU WOULDN'T DOWNLOAD A CAR!'

yeah I fucking would. Its just not possible though


----------



## xenon (Sep 28, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> Fair enough. But my point was less about what it would look like, and more countering the statement "a society couldn't function without trade". Stripped down, all a society does is produces stuff and distributes it. We could argue that the distribution is trade if we want and even the supply. But it normally means  something different to that. And I don't necessarily think post capitalism equates to barter systems. There's loads of examples of this stuff happening alongside what we have now presently. Such as open source software. How does that come about without trade or bartering?


  Bartering  is not and need not be the crude kind of I've got pigs I want textiles. Don't invite Cameron obviously. but anyway, things like open source software. Well that just comes from people with the skill seeing a problem that needs solving just getting on with it.  Very much like the people going over to Calais.	 Cooperation is fundamental to human evolution. Of course there is self interest. You want to ensure your own survival before that of some stranger. But capitalism	And the myth of the free market rational individual  being all there is  is one of its egregeous lies. 

 er   I guess we all knew that anyway.  But I can't answer the rest offhand.


----------



## xenon (Sep 28, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> But it's interesting that the former has chosen to do this. Rather than profit from it. Actually not even profit from it, not even be paid for it. Now, obviously they're in the financial position to be able to do that. And the latter couldn't because they're not in the financial position to do that. But what if they were? Isn't this what free communism is? We all produce knowing that at the end of it all we're not going to be evicted and we'll be well fed, have nice stuff etc? It's interesting that things such as Linux came about without profit in mind.


 but you do this too. If I recall you know electrics. You would advise someone, give free advice to someone regarding electrical power and whatnot. You don't write it down in a book and demand they pay for it. Sharing knowledge and skills to help people out. You wouldn't do this to detriment of your own survival, there is that balance to be made with any exchange. But people ultimately do   Generally want to share if it doesn't harm themselves.


----------



## Batboy (Sep 28, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> A builder owns a firm. Bricklayers, roofers, labourers etc do the graft. People who own multiple cafes employing others are petit bourgeouis at the very least.



I worked many years in the construction business. A building company/builder sub contracts these works out and normally finances and project manages the works and that is fucking hard graft, so again you are talking nonsense.. Virtually all Carpenters roofers, electricians, bricklayers tradespersons are self employed and handle there own tax affairs. I very recently had a row with an electrician after they tried to charge me 3k for three days work. 

Most tradespeople (Certainly in London) earn a decent whack (Although I guess that is subjective). What do you charge as a day rate as an electrician?

People who own multiple cafes are offering employment to people and providing they are paying them well, what is the problem?


----------



## Batboy (Sep 28, 2015)

stethoscope said:


> Do I recall a previous thread where boss class Batboy was upset because boss class Jewish syndicates had infiltrated his patch which is bad because Batboy is a fairer form of boss class because of his working class background?!


oh do fuck off! I am not going to be sucked into this argument again.. context context  context something that gets so lost in the bunfights on U75.


----------



## Batboy (Sep 28, 2015)

hipipol said:


> Alternative should not include "Throat slitting" as part of its intellectual armoury I feel........


It is such a tenuous link it defies belief. Perhaps if I had said rammed a kebab skewer down their throat I could get the link. The Turkish business community all along Stoke Newington consists of cafe/restaurant owners, Mini Supermarkets, Printers Florists Mini Cab offices etc etc... At the time of the London riots they set up their own patrols to protect their businesses . Class War go after soft targets, never in a zillion years would they target these shops or go and start a riot by attacking a football club, because they know they would get mashed up. Fucking hypocrites and cowards.


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 28, 2015)

Batboy said:


> I worked many years in the construction business. A building company/builder sub contracts these works out and normally finances and project manages the works and that is fucking hard graft, so again you are talking nonsense.. Virtually all Carpenters roofers, electricians, bricklayers tradespersons are self employed and handle there own tax affairs. I very recently had a row with an electrician after they tried to charge me 3k for three days work.
> 
> Most tradespeople (Certainly in London) earn a decent whack (Although I guess that is subjective). What do you charge as a day rate as an electrician?
> 
> People who own multiple cafes are offering employment to people and providing they are paying them well, what is the problem?



I don't do private work. I'm on a salary.  What do you earn you nosey cunt?


----------



## Sparkle Motion (Sep 28, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> You can only protest if you live there and it directly affects you?
> 
> Better go tell all the Palestine Solidarity pickets to piss off home then.


If even 20% of the protesters were genuinely local that would be a massively exciting development. Most people affected by gentrification quietly move on to a better life in the suburbs, and wouldn't go back even if they could.

So who are these people who turned up en masse and decided to dictate who can and cannot set up a business? What makes them any better than the people whose cafe they trashed?

I will donate £10 to a charity of your choice for every born and bred local arrested, if you do the same for every outsider who, like the _hipsters,_ has chosen to move in and change the area to what they think it should be.


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 28, 2015)

Sparkle Motion said:


> If even 20% of the protesters were genuinely local that would be a massively exciting development. Most people affected by gentrification quietly move on to a better life in the suburbs, and wouldn't go back even if they could.



 

Gentrification _helps_ people.

Gonna need some supporting evidence for this one I think.


----------



## Batboy (Sep 28, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> I don't do private work. I'm on a salary.  What do you earn you nosey cunt?



At the moment fuck all. funny how you can drum on about what profit people/business makes but get touchy about your own situation. When I have business up and running I pay myself 25k a year. I live relatively frugally, I am not extravagant, I get around on a bike that cost me £200, I don't own a flash car. I am not rich but I am not poor. But I know I am lucky and so are you if you have a job. I also in my spare time run a small charity helping youths and teens access football. I pay for all of this. Your perception of me and indeed people who run businesses is probably quite warped and far from reality. Not all bosses are greedy cunts.


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 28, 2015)

I'm not profiting from other people's labour though. So as interested as I might be in playing prolier than thou, it's irrelevant to the discussion.


----------



## Batboy (Sep 28, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> Gentrification _helps_ people.
> 
> Gonna need some supporting evidence for this one I think.



Regeneration can help. 

The problem with gentrification (a term that has only come into our everyday use over the last 20 years) is that in London and other cities around the globe it has morphed into social engineering almost by default. My Aunt lived in the docklands back in the 60's and early 70's it was a shit hole she couldn't wait to get out of there. She moved to Barking . Of course if you look at the fortunes of those areas now it is a big contrast. 

Of course we all know the path these areas take. Starting cheap, interesting people move in the area becomes buzzy the hipsters and architects/propertty developers move in and prices spiral forcing businesses and existing residents out of the area. Difficult to know how to stop that process.

The affordable housing situation is the key. Areas that get totally gentrified become bland and boring, personally I love a colourful mix. Until such time the property market crashes (It will) and we bring in an intelligent regulation on property prices and ownership we will continue in a housing crisis.


----------



## Batboy (Sep 28, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> I'm not profiting from other people's labour though. So as interested as I might be in playing prolier than thou, it's irrelevant to the discussion.


You are profiting... you get paid for your time and work that is a profit for your labour. If you were a sub contractor, that is how it would be classified and in reality being directly employed is still the same. 
You may not like the fact that somebody else makes a profit on your time... you could always go and set yourself up as a contractor and take on the work yourself. That opportunity is there for you. Most electricians I know earn a fair whack certainly more money then than I do charging out around 30.00 per hour for labour only work. And I rather suspect you earn more than me. Whatever your political ideology I cannot see an alternative system that works better then we have. Of course it needs a lot of fixing to get right.


----------



## pocketscience (Sep 28, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> I'm not profiting from other people's labour though. So as interested as I might be in playing prolier than thou, it's irrelevant to the discussion.


Bold statment. I find it hard to see how anybody living in a 1st world economy doesn't profit from other peoples labour.


----------



## Blagsta (Sep 28, 2015)

pocketscience said:


> Bold statment. I find it hard to see how anybody living in a 1st world economy doesn't profit from other peoples labour.



Explain?


----------



## Belushi (Sep 28, 2015)

Sparkle Motion said:


> Most people affected by gentrification quietly move on to a better life in the suburbs, and wouldn't go back even if they could.



What are you basing that on?


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 28, 2015)

Batboy said:


> You are profiting... you get paid for your time and work that is a profit for your labour. If you were a sub contractor, that is how it would be classified and in reality being directly employed is still the same.
> You may not like the fact that somebody else makes a profit on your time... you could always go and set yourself up as a contractor and take on the work yourself. That opportunity is there for you. Most electricians I know earn a fair whack certainly more money then than I do charging out around 30.00 per hour for labour only work. And I rather suspect you earn more than me. Whatever your political ideology I cannot see an alternative system that works better then we have. Of course it needs a lot of fixing to get right.



I sell my labour in return for a wage. Do you know what profit is? I assume you do given you run a business that employs people.


----------



## pocketscience (Sep 28, 2015)

Blagsta said:


> Explain?


The 1st world system was build and exists on the exploitation of enslaved/ lower wage countries. Unless you really live outside the system you profit from that indirectly imo.


----------



## Blagsta (Sep 28, 2015)

pocketscience said:


> The 1st world system was build and exists on the exploitation of enslaved/ lower wage countries. Unless you really live outside the system you profit from that indirectly imo.



Indirectly. Yes.


----------



## pocketscience (Sep 28, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> I sell my labour in return for a wage. Do you know what profit is? I assume you do given you run a business that employs people.


What do you work as and who are the end customers of the goods or services the company you work for supplies?


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 28, 2015)

pocketscience said:


> The 1st world system was build and exists on the exploitation of enslaved/ lower wage countries. Unless you really live outside the system you profit from that indirectly imo.


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 28, 2015)

pocketscience said:


> What do you work as and who are the end customers of the goods or services the company you work for supplies?



Do you want my mothers fucking maiden name too?


----------



## pocketscience (Sep 28, 2015)

Blagsta said:


> Indirectly. Yes.


Never the less, profit we do.


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 28, 2015)

pocketscience said:


> Never the less, profit we do.



If you work for a firm that generates profit, you make a loss.


----------



## Blagsta (Sep 28, 2015)

pocketscience said:


> Never the less, profit we do.



Not "profit", no. That has a specific meaning in this context. Benefit, yes. Profit, no.


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 28, 2015)

Not sure how much we benefit from it tbh. International Capital uses one country to produce and another country to consume. The profit goes into private pockets not social policies.


----------



## prunus (Sep 28, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> You always get reactions such as this from Liberals. They don't like uncontrolled (not peaceful) demonstration.



Uncontrolledly go and smash up the plate glass of the City of London institutions and I'm right behind it. They were (as has been pointed out) about 400 yards away from the shop actually attacked, where a couple of kids are probably just about breaking even with an admittedly annoying "wacky" cafe. 

With these choices being made it looks very like "Class War" (hah! the naïveté) are just bullies and cowards, raging against the machine but scared to actually confront it.


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 28, 2015)

prunus said:


> Uncontrolledly go and smash up the plate glass of the City of London institutions and I'm right behind it. They were (as has been pointed out) about 400 yards away from the shop actually attacked, where a couple of kids are probably just about breaking even with an admittedly annoying "wacky" cafe.
> 
> With these choices being made it looks very like "Class War" (hah! the naïveté) are just bullies and cowards, raging against the machine but scared to actually confront it.



Whatever your personal view, the very same arguments were had in the late 90s when McDonalds windows went through.


----------



## seventh bullet (Sep 28, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> Not sure how much we benefit from it tbh. International Capital uses one country to produce and another country to consume. The profit goes into private pockets not social policies.



Shut up you labour aristokkkrat.


----------



## cantsin (Sep 28, 2015)

prunus said:


> Uncontrolledly go and smash up the plate glass of the City of London institutions and I'm right behind it. They were (as has been pointed out) about 400 yards away from the shop actually attacked, where a couple of kids are probably just about breaking even with an admittedly annoying "wacky" cafe.
> 
> With these choices being made it looks very like "Class War" (hah! the naïveté) are just bullies and cowards, raging against the machine but scared to actually confront it.



Bit naive to think " the machine " is always the lumbering beast with a big " capitalist baddie" sign on it tbh


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 28, 2015)

seventh bullet said:


> Shut up you labour aristokkkrat.



Call yourself a socialist and you live in a house?


----------



## pocketscience (Sep 28, 2015)

Blagsta said:


> Not "profit", no. That has a specific meaning in this context. Benefit, yes. Profit, no.


In Marx's native language, "profit" and "benefit" share the same word: _der Gewinn_.


----------



## stethoscope (Sep 28, 2015)

pocketscience said:


> In Marx's native language, "profit" and "benefit" share the same word: _der Gewinn_.



Profit is very specific in Marx usage.


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 28, 2015)

pocketscience said:


> In Marx's native language, "profit" and "benefit" share the same word: _der Gewinn_.



In the UK benefit synonymous with welfare. So we come a full circle.


----------



## pocketscience (Sep 28, 2015)

stethoscope said:


> Profit is very specific in Marx usage.


Yes, _financial_ profit. 
Though the word profit alone is synonymous with benefit.


----------



## Blagsta (Sep 28, 2015)

pocketscience said:


> In Marx's native language, "profit" and "benefit" share the same word: _der Gewinn_.



So?


----------



## Blagsta (Sep 28, 2015)

pocketscience said:


> Yes, _financial_ profit.
> Though the word profit alone is synonymous with benefit.



There's a specific context to the argument here that you're missing.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 28, 2015)

Sparkle Motion said:


> If even 20% of the protesters were genuinely local that would be a massively exciting development. Most people affected by gentrification quietly move on to a better life in the suburbs, and wouldn't go back even if they could.
> 
> So who are these people who turned up en masse and decided to dictate who can and cannot set up a business? What makes them any better than the people whose cafe they trashed?
> 
> I will donate £10 to a charity of your choice for every born and bred local arrested, if you do the same for every outsider who, like the _hipsters,_ has chosen to move in and change the area to what they think it should be.


so you're saying most people affectrd by gentrification move to the suburbs. so why are so many people affected by gentrufication moving to eg brick lane?


----------



## sim667 (Sep 28, 2015)

So I've just bought a box of cereal for £2, which cleary states on the front its 18 servings, so by my calculations they're making £63..... whats that a 3000% mark up? ( I may be wrong, percentages have never been my strong point).


----------



## sim667 (Sep 28, 2015)

Sparkle Motion said:


> If even 20% of the protesters were genuinely local that would be a massively exciting development. Most people affected by gentrification quietly move on to a better life in the suburbs, and wouldn't go back even if they could.
> 
> So who are these people who turned up en masse and decided to dictate who can and cannot set up a business? What makes them any better than the people whose cafe they trashed?
> 
> I will donate £10 to a charity of your choice for every born and bred local arrested, if you do the same for every outsider who, like the _hipsters,_ has chosen to move in and change the area to what they think it should be.



There was only 1 person arrested, so you're not exactly raising the stakes are you?


----------



## stethoscope (Sep 28, 2015)

sim667 said:


> So I've just bought a box of cereal for £2, which cleary states on the front its 18 servings, so by my calculations they're making £63..... whats that a 3000% mark up? ( I may be wrong, percentages have never been my strong point).



_That ain't working, that's the way you do it,
Get your money for nothing..._

(one for @DotCommunist there  )


----------



## marty21 (Sep 28, 2015)

sim667 said:


> So I've just bought a box of cereal for £2, which cleary states on the front its 18 servings, so by my calculations they're making £63..... whats that a 3000% mark up? ( I may be wrong, percentages have never been my strong point).


How much are you paying yourself to prepare those servings , how much for your premises , how much for the energy you use ,  the milk ,etc . They are not making 3000 %


----------



## stethoscope (Sep 28, 2015)

marty21 said:


> How much are you paying yourself to prepare those servings , how much for your premises , how much for the energy you use ,  the milk ,etc . They are not making 3000 %



No it's not tbf. And they're also importing cereals from the USA too which must cost a bit more.

Still, to set up something as specific as a cereal 'cafe', in a part of London now where business rates must be now pretty expensive, there must be returns to make from it surely?


----------



## marty21 (Sep 28, 2015)

stethoscope said:


> No it's not tbf. And they're also importing cereals from the USA too which must cost a bit more.
> 
> Still, to set up something as specific as a cereal 'cafe', in a part of London now where business rates must be now pretty expensive, there must be returns to make from it surely?


  of course they are making a profit


----------



## sim667 (Sep 28, 2015)

marty21 said:


> How much are you paying yourself to prepare those servings , how much for your premises , how much for the energy you use ,  the milk ,etc . They are not making 3000 %



If they're selling a £2 box of cereal for £63, then it is a 3000% markup.....

Premises, energy, staff are not covered by the term "markup", "markup" is how much you increase the value of the goods you've bought to sell on


----------



## stethoscope (Sep 28, 2015)

marty21 said:


> of course they are making a profit



Quite.

Also, given its area, anybody think the 'edgy' play on 'serial killer' is proper iffy. Just like that fucking Women'sRipper museum.


----------



## cesare (Sep 28, 2015)

stethoscope said:


> Quite.
> 
> Also, given its area, anybody think the 'edgy' play on 'serial killer' is proper iffy. Just like that fucking Women'sRipper museum.


Yep. Although at least it's not masquerading as a homage to the lives of East End women.


----------



## sim667 (Sep 28, 2015)

stethoscope said:


> Quite.
> 
> Also, given its area, anybody think the 'edgy' play on 'serial killer' is proper iffy. Just like that fucking Women'sRipper museum.



They've got a portrait of hannibal lecter made out of cheerios on the wall too.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 28, 2015)

sim667 said:


> They've got a portrait of hannibal lecter made out of cheerios on the wall too.


and a jumper made from unravelled shredded wheat depicting the queen mum, handmade by artisans fresh from artschool


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 28, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> so you're saying most people affectrd by gentrification move to the suburbs. so why are so many people affected by gentrufication moving to eg brick lane?


Sparkle Motion


----------



## stethoscope (Sep 28, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> and a jumper made from unravelled shredded wheat depicting the queen mum, handmade by artisans fresh from artschool



Loyalists then.


----------



## cesare (Sep 28, 2015)

sim667 said:


> They've got a portrait of hannibal lecter made out of cheerios on the wall too.


Actual Cheerios or wooden/plastic versions?


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 28, 2015)

stethoscope said:


> Loyalists then.


sadly so


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 28, 2015)

cesare said:


> Actual Cheerios or wooden/plastic versions?


genuine regurgitated cheerios


----------



## cesare (Sep 28, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> genuine regurgitated cheerios


Ugh. Can you imagine how soft and musty dusty real ones would be?


----------



## IC3D (Sep 28, 2015)

sim667  I just want to say right now you don't get 18 servings out of a packet of cereal.


----------



## joustmaster (Sep 28, 2015)

sim667 said:


> If they're selling a £2 box of cereal for £63, then it is a 3000% markup.....
> 
> Premises, energy, staff are not covered by the term "markup", "markup" is how much you increase the value of the goods you've bought to sell on


They sell english cereal from £2.50
I guess the portion size n the side of the box is on the smaller size. These things usually are.


----------



## cesare (Sep 28, 2015)

IC3D said:


> sim667  I just want to say right now you don't get 18 servings out of a packet of cereal.


Probably cereal killer sized portions.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 28, 2015)

IC3D said:


> sim667  I just want to say right now you don't get 18 servings out of a packet of cereal.


sim does. sim's a miser.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 28, 2015)

IC3D said:


> sim667  I just want to say right now you don't get 18 servings out of a packet of cereal.


have you noticed that when you go to a posh restaurant and spend lots of money you get fuck all food?


----------



## stethoscope (Sep 28, 2015)

IC3D said:


> sim667  I just want to say right now you don't get 18 servings out of a packet of cereal.



You do in an ala carte cereal dish.


----------



## newbie (Sep 28, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> well there has to be some mechanism (or mechanisms) for the exchange of goods and services. No man is a swiss army knife of talents to build a train and plough a field and then run a market stall. Interesting to note that some of the tokens of exchange between early tribal socities signified less the value of the item but its currency as a signifier, not too far removed from how our currency today is utterly worthless in what it is but in what it symbolises and how it is backed is the thing. *Neverheless, exchange and money as a technology are not capitalism and no amount of revisionism will change that*


are you sure? 

seems to me that if you and I receive the same tokens for the same work, week by week, and I choose to go to the pub of an evening and exchange mine for beer, while you stay at home to dead-head the roses, at the end of our lives you have some beautiful roses and a pile of tokens (to hand to your kids?), and I have a smelly corner in the alley on the way home.

Once that pile is accumulated we are straight into capitalism, as an inevitable result of the token basis of exchange, whether or not I borrow some of it to drink more than I can afford.


----------



## fredfelt (Sep 28, 2015)

sim667 said:


> So I've just bought a box of cereal for £2, which cleary states on the front its 18 servings, so by my calculations they're making £63..... whats that a 3000% mark up? ( I may be wrong, percentages have never been my strong point).



You spend £2 on a box of cereal!  Do you have any idea how much they are making out of selling you that sugary muck!  About a billion percent.

As you are worried about adding value you should buy porridge.


----------



## Dowie (Sep 28, 2015)

cantsin said:


> Bit naive to think " the machine " is always the lumbering beast with a big " capitalist baddie" sign on it tbh



even more naive to think it is a cafe run by a couple of people with beards


----------



## chilango (Sep 28, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> have you noticed that when you go to a posh restaurant and spend lots of money you get fuck all food?



You're going to the wrong posh restaurants then.


----------



## cesare (Sep 28, 2015)

3 Rice Krispies artfully arranged on the corner of a rectangular piece of reclaimed slate, with a dash of yoghurt smeared next to it, pointing towards the middle


----------



## stethoscope (Sep 28, 2015)

newbie said:


> Once that pile is accumulated we are straight into capitalism, as an inevitable result of the token basis of exchange, whether or not I borrow some of it to drink more than I can afford.



As capitalism is about the means of production, and not merely the use/exchange of tokens, no.


----------



## sim667 (Sep 28, 2015)

chilango said:


> You're going to the wrong posh restaurants then.



I can't imagine pickmans being the posh restaurant type tbh


----------



## newbie (Sep 28, 2015)

stethoscope said:


> As capitalism is about the means of production, no.


once capital is accumulated someone will find a use for it


----------



## sim667 (Sep 28, 2015)

I've just looked at their menu, small british cereals are £2.50 a bowl...... of course they don't tell you how much a "small" is.

On the one I've bought, the entire box is 585g divided by 18, meaning each serving is 32.5 grams.

I'd be interesting to see how that compares.

TBH, their coffees seem quite reasonably priced.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 28, 2015)

Dowie said:


> even more naive to think it is a cafe run by a couple of people with beards


because these footsoldiers of gentrification aren't in fact and contrary to all appearances gentrifiers?


----------



## cantsin (Sep 28, 2015)

Dowie said:


> even more naive to think it is a cafe run by a couple of people with beards



"the machine" is a multi header hydra fam.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 28, 2015)

sim667 said:


> I can't imagine pickmans being the posh restaurant type tbh


khan's is my idea of a great night out


----------



## ffsear (Sep 28, 2015)

Plenty of gentrified pubs around that area.  Saturday night,  full of rugger buggers watching the England game.  Thought that would be their ideal target,!!

Would class war attack them?	Would they fuck!   Don't want people fighting back now do we!


----------



## marty21 (Sep 28, 2015)

cesare said:


> 3 Rice Krispies artfully arranged on the corner of a rectangular piece of reclaimed slate, with a dash of yoghurt smeared next to it, pointing towards the middle


 £35 plus tip please


----------



## cesare (Sep 28, 2015)

marty21 said:


> £35 plus tip please


I'm going for the price fixe menu, I demand my blueberry.


----------



## marty21 (Sep 28, 2015)

cesare said:


> I'm going for the price fixe menu, I demand my blueberry.


 

1 blueberry is included in the price, any additional blueberries are £5 each (plus tip)


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 28, 2015)

ffsear said:


> Plenty of gentrified pubs around that area.  Saturday night,  full of rugger buggers watching the England game.  Thought that would be their ideal target,!!
> 
> Would class war attack them?	Would they fuck!   Don't want people fighting back now do we!


why did you think that?


----------



## chilango (Sep 28, 2015)

Goes to show how muddle headed many people get about class.

A question we would all do well to remind ourselves of is *why* Marx et al put class at the centre of their analysis?


----------



## marty21 (Sep 28, 2015)

cesare said:


> I'm going for the price fixe menu, I demand my blueberry.


 we should set up a place, we could make £££££s


----------



## cesare (Sep 28, 2015)

marty21 said:


> we should set up a place, we could make £££££s


Egg cafe. Or maybe, biscuits


----------



## marty21 (Sep 28, 2015)

cesare said:


> Egg cafe. Or maybe, biscuits


Craft biscuits


----------



## cesare (Sep 28, 2015)

marty21 said:


> Craft biscuits


Wood-fired artisanal craft micro biscuits, even.


----------



## Johnny Doe (Sep 28, 2015)

marty21 said:


> Craft biscuits



I read that as 'crafty biscuits'. You'd probably have them as dessert after a cheeky Nandos....


----------



## marty21 (Sep 28, 2015)

Harry Smiles said:


> I read that as 'crafty biscuits'. You'd probably have them as dessert after a cheeky Nandos....


 I remember when Nandos opened in Stoke Newington, the middle class were in UPROAR about it


----------



## cesare (Sep 28, 2015)

marty21 said:


> I remember when Nandos opened in Stoke Newington, the middle class were in UPROAR about it


Did it open on Church Street?


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 28, 2015)

newbie said:


> are you sure?
> 
> seems to me that if you and I receive the same tokens for the same work, week by week, and I choose to go to the pub of an evening and exchange mine for beer, while you stay at home to dead-head the roses, at the end of our lives you have some beautiful roses and a pile of tokens (to hand to your kids?), and I have a smelly corner in the alley on the way home.
> 
> Once that pile is accumulated we are straight into capitalism, as an inevitable result of the token basis of exchange, whether or not I borrow some of it to drink more than I can afford.





stethoscope said:


> As capitalism is about the means of production, and not merely the use/exchange of tokens, no.



ennit, if wealth accumulation alone was capitalism why do we draw the distinction between a feudalism and capitalism


----------



## marty21 (Sep 28, 2015)

cesare said:


> Did it open on Church Street?


 yep


----------



## cesare (Sep 28, 2015)

marty21 said:


> yep


Kinell, I bet there was hell to pay


----------



## marty21 (Sep 28, 2015)

cesare said:


> Kinell, I bet there was hell to pay


 they protested on FB AND Twitter - they were proper angry - I might have trolled them on fb


----------



## cesare (Sep 28, 2015)

marty21 said:


> they protested on FB AND Twitter - they were proper angry - I might have trolled them on fb


Did Nandos respond with #hatecrime?


----------



## marty21 (Sep 28, 2015)

cesare said:


> Did Nandos respond with #hatecrime?


 I don't think Nandos took much notice tbf - and there wasn't any protest once they were opened afaik


----------



## Blagsta (Sep 28, 2015)

newbie said:


> once capital is accumulated someone will find a use for it



This is the "capitalism is natural" argument. Load of toss.


----------



## cantsin (Sep 28, 2015)

ffsear said:


> Plenty of gentrified pubs around that area.  Saturday night,  full of rugger buggers watching the England game.  Thought that would be their ideal target,!!
> 
> Would class war attack them?	Would they fuck!   Don't want people fighting back now do we!



 so we've had the 'attack RBS , 3 miles away ' daftness, now we've got the 'attack rugger bugger pubs' ? What rugger bugger pubs round there ? ( name one, unless you mean City boozers...on a sat ? ) And whats that got to do with what the stated focus of the activity ?


----------



## cesare (Sep 28, 2015)

marty21 said:


> I don't think Nandos took much notice tbf - and there wasn't any protest once they were opened afaik


Middle class protest is so much more _civilised_ ... none of yer smoke grenade arson with CHILDREN PRESENT in Nandos.


----------



## ffsear (Sep 28, 2015)

cantsin said:


> daftness, now we've got the 'attack rugger bugger pubs' ? What rugger bugger pubs round there ?



The Crown and Shuttle.


----------



## cantsin (Sep 28, 2015)

ffsear said:


> The Crown and Shuttle.



been there, semi City/ office worker pub, as you'd expect in that location, have no idea how you'd think anti gentrification activists, rightly or wrongly, would decide to go and protest / whatever, there -  there's prob 50-100 similarly converted pubs in a 2 square mile radius


----------



## Mr Moose (Sep 28, 2015)

ffsear said:


> Plenty of gentrified pubs around that area.  Saturday night,  full of rugger buggers watching the England game.  Thought that would be their ideal target,!!
> 
> Would class war attack them?	Would they fuck!   Don't want people fighting back now do we!



After a good night protesting £2.50 cereal folk need a place to retire to where they can spend £5 per pint moaning about it.


----------



## kabbes (Sep 28, 2015)

sim667 said:


> I've just looked at their menu, small british cereals are £2.50 a bowl...... of course they don't tell you how much a "small" is.
> 
> On the one I've bought, the entire box is 585g divided by 18, meaning each serving is 32.5 grams.
> 
> ...


Utterly irrelevant question but: what the hell cereal is £2 for a 585g box?


----------



## sim667 (Sep 28, 2015)

kabbes said:


> Utterly irrelevant question but: what the hell cereal is £2 for a 585g box?



Honey Cheerios.


----------



## ffsear (Sep 28, 2015)

cantsin said:


> been there, semi City/ office worker pub, as you'd expect in that location, have no idea how you'd think anti gentrification activists, rightly or wrongly, would decide to go and protest / whatever, there -  there's prob 50-100 similarly converted pubs in a 2 square mile radius




Its about 100 meters from the cereal shop.  Its not a city pub.  Its another symbol of gentrification in that area.  Its was built in 1816, The original  Crown & Shuttle served East London’s residents right up to 2001.


"Hot on the heels of Bethnal Green Road’s Well & Bucket <link?> comes another sexy revamped East End boozer – this time it’s the turn of The Crown & Shuttle.  <link?> <link?>Originally buit in 1816, the Crown & Shuttle served East London’s residents right up to 2001 in various guises. Boarded up in 2001, it has since formed a part of that stretch of no man’s land between The City and Shoreditch (near that weird outdoor golf centre), but all that is about to change.  <link?> <link?>With a bare brick interior and old-fashioned benches that nod to the venue’s illustrious past, this new hot spot will soon become a destination for craft beers, good food and good times. A relaxed atmosphere will gladly attract more Shoreditch hipsters than City bankers. At the back there’s a glorious beer garden and the Shuttle Bus kitchen serves pulled pork rolls amongst other delights.  <link?> <link?>Craft beers flow from the new pumps and an extensive wine list will have locals watering at the mouth – as will the posh sausage rolls served as bar snacks. Delicious. - See more at: The Crown & Shuttle - Just Opened London"


----------



## ffsear (Sep 28, 2015)

Looks even more "urban" and "edgy" now.   Probably done them a favor.


----------



## sim667 (Sep 28, 2015)

ffsear said:


> Looks even more "urban" and "edgy" now.   Probably done them a favor.



I like the way they've got a 5 star hygiene rating..... I don't know how the fuck you'd get anything less when you're only selling bowls of cereal and toast


----------



## cesare (Sep 28, 2015)

Pity the Ripper Museum protest wasn't as effective (fucking thing was open last time I walked past).


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 28, 2015)

sim667 said:


> I like the way they've got a 5 star hygiene rating..... I don't know how the fuck you'd get anything less when you're only selling bowls of cereal and toast


you could dip your todger in the milk before the customer gets the bowl.


----------



## ffsear (Sep 28, 2015)

sim667 said:


> I like the way they've got a 5 star hygiene rating..... I don't know how the fuck you'd get anything less when you're only selling bowls of cereal and toast




Beard hairs in your milk?


----------



## sim667 (Sep 28, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> you could dip your todger in the milk before the customer gets the bowl.



Thats far too simple for hipsters, they'd want to use bellend cheese to cultivate bacteria to make an in house speciality milk or something.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 28, 2015)

ffsear said:


> Beard hairs in your milk?


no chance of a reply to my question i see.


----------



## cantsin (Sep 28, 2015)

ffsear said:


> Its about 100 meters from the cereal shop.  Its not a city pub.  Its another symbol of gentrification in that area.  Its was built in 1816, The original  Crown & Shuttle served East London’s residents right up to 2001.
> 
> 
> I just dont get your point - there 1000's of "symbols of gentrification " in the area, are you saying they should protests against / attack all of them ? None of them ?


----------



## killer b (Sep 28, 2015)

good piece on this by Sam Kriss in Vice ('a plague on both their houses', essentially)

The Attack on the Cereal Killer Café Was a Fight Between Overgrown Children | VICE | United Kingdom


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 28, 2015)

sim667 said:


> I like the way they've got a 5 star hygiene rating..... I don't know how the fuck you'd get anything less when you're only selling bowls of cereal and toast


chin hedges on them boys you never know what you might find floating in your artisan milk


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 28, 2015)

ffsear said:


> Beard hairs in your milk?


goddamit


----------



## cesare (Sep 28, 2015)

Do these twins not wear snoods?


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 28, 2015)

killer b said:


> good piece on this by Sam Kriss in Vice ('a plague on both their houses', essentially)
> 
> The Attack on the Cereal Killer Café Was a Fight Between Overgrown Children | VICE | United Kingdom


seems to me to be by vice's answer to phildwyer


----------



## cesare (Sep 28, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> seems to me to be by vice's answer to phildwyer


When it said "continued below" I thought it was an apposite and passing reference to Private Eye's continued page 74. But no. It actually did


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 28, 2015)

cesare said:


> When it said "continued below" I thought it was an apposite and passing reference to Private Eye's continued page 74. But no. It actually did


it's very good there are people who've taken an ma critical theory at the university of sussex to speak up on behalf of windows.


----------



## kabbes (Sep 28, 2015)

sim667 said:


> Honey Cheerios.


£3.19 for 565g from Tesco.

Groceries


----------



## cesare (Sep 28, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> it's very good there are people who've taken an ma critical theory at the university of sussex to speak up on behalf of windows.


----------



## Dowie (Sep 28, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> because these footsoldiers of gentrification aren't in fact and contrary to all appearances gentrifiers?



Why are they gentrifiers? Because they've got beards? Because they're 'hipsters'?


----------



## stethoscope (Sep 28, 2015)

Christ almighty


----------



## cesare (Sep 28, 2015)

stethoscope said:


> Christ almighty


Aye


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 28, 2015)

Dowie said:


> Why are they gentrifiers? Because they've got beards? Because they're 'hipsters'?






			
				ruth glass said:
			
		

> _One by one, many of the working class quarters have been invaded by the middle class - upper and lower ... Once this process of 'gentrification' starts in a district it goes on rapidly until all or most of the working class occupiers are displaced and the whole social social character of the district is changed_


they are gentrifiers because they are gentrifying as per ruth glass's definition. and why should we accept her definition? because she invented the term.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 28, 2015)

Dowie said:


> Why are they gentrifiers? Because they've got beards? Because they're 'hipsters'?


sounds to me like you've headed the ball into your own net once too often for you to follow a reasoned argument.


----------



## chilango (Sep 28, 2015)

For the first time ever a uniquely Urban row emerged blinking and dazed into my everyday life. 

We don't often talk "politics" at work. Even the revelation that *Prime Minister, David Cameron, fucked a dead pig in the mouth *didn't warrant a mention.

Yet, today, around the lunch table someone asked me "Did you hear about that cereal cafe that attacked?"

They really did.

Normally when I make these kinda posts I'm being sarcastic to highlight the irrelevance of the spat.

But, no, today someone really did bring up the attack on the cereal cafe.

Naturally, I declined to offer much comment...


----------



## Dowie (Sep 28, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> they are gentrifiers because they are gentrifying as per ruth glass's definition. and why should we accept her definition? because she invented the term.



what makes those cafe owners middle class and other food establishment owners in the area not middle class?


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 28, 2015)

what other food establishments have you in mind?


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 28, 2015)

It's like pulling your teeth out with rusty pliers.


----------



## Dowie (Sep 28, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> It's like pulling your teeth out with rusty pliers.



only because you've generally got shit arguments to try and justify it....


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 28, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> It's like pulling your teeth out with rusty pliers.


when it should be me pulling dowie's teeth with rusty pliers and no anesthetick beyond the occasional well-intentioned head kick.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 28, 2015)

Dowie said:


> only because you've generally got shit arguments to try and justify it....


Citizen66's shit argument nonetheless better than your non-existent argument


----------



## Dowie (Sep 28, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> Citizen66's shit argument nonetheless better than your non-existent argument



so answer the question then


----------



## SpamMisery (Sep 28, 2015)

Put me right off my cornflakes

Furious mob targets mildly annoying thing


----------



## Dowie (Sep 28, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> what other food establishments have you in mind?



any on that same road


----------



## Dowie (Sep 28, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> when it should be me pulling dowie's teeth with rusty pliers and no anesthetick beyond the occasional well-intentioned head kick.



you sound frustrated


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 28, 2015)

Dowie said:


> so answer the question then


i did


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 28, 2015)

Dowie said:


> you sound frustrated


you sound thick as pig-shit


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 28, 2015)

Dowie said:


> any on that same road


before we proceed let me ask you this: how do you define middle class?


----------



## cesare (Sep 28, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> Put me right off my cornflakes
> 
> Furious mob targets mildly annoying thing


If they think that was a furious mob they're going to struggle CTR


----------



## Dowie (Sep 28, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> you sound thick as pig-shit



that's it - avoid questions and resort to just slinging insults because your arguments are a load of crap


----------



## Dowie (Sep 28, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> before we proceed let me ask you this: how do you define middle class?



I was asking you that and you seemed to find it difficult to answer - so far you've diverted and then resorted to throwing insults around... pathetic


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 28, 2015)

Dowie said:


> that's it - avoid questions and resort to just slinging insults because your arguments are a load of crap


it's difficult to present an argument to somsone whose entire debating strategy seems based around shifting the parameters at random.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 28, 2015)

Dowie said:


> I was asking you that and you seemed to find it difficult to answer - so far you've diverted and then resorted to throwing insults around... pathetic


so when you throw insults round it's not a diversion but when i do it is. why is that?


----------



## marty21 (Sep 28, 2015)

I actually go to the cereal cafe to save money as it costs £65 for cereal at my local deli


----------



## Dowie (Sep 28, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> it's difficult to present an argument to somsone whose entire debating strategy seems based around shifting the parameters at random.



I'm not shifting anything -  you decided to get sidetracked with petty insults and dreams about teeth pulling when asked a question - I'll ask again:

Why is the cereal cafe such an issue and the other food establishments on brick lane not an issue - what makes the cereal cafe owners middle class gentrifiers?


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 28, 2015)

Dowie said:


> I'm not shifting anything -  you decided to get sidetracked with petty insults and dreams about teeth pulling when asked a question - I'll ask again:
> 
> Why is the cereal cafe such an issue and the other food establishments on brick lane not an issue - what makes the cereal cafe owners middle class gentrifiers?


BECAUSE THEY HAVE MOVED INTO THE AREA TO SUPPORT GENTRIFIERS: THEY CATER TO GENTRIFIERS AND NOT THE LOCAL POPULACE as opposed to e.g. the bengali restaurants or the bagel shops which have been there for many years. indeed the very ward's named banglatown.


----------



## Dowie (Sep 28, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> BECAUSE THEY HAVE MOVED INTO THE AREA TO SUPPORT GENTRIFIERS: THEY CATER TO GENTRIFIERS AND NOT THE LOCAL POPULACE as opposed to e.g. the bengali restaurants or the bagel shops which have been there for many years. indeed the very ward's named banglatown.



how do they support 'gentriiers'?

you can go into any number of bars on that road and see plenty of hipster types, any number of Curry houses and see groups of city bankers... what makes the cereal cafe different? You think the entire row of curry houses with people stood outside trying to attract passing trade  mostly supports the local populace?

This is why you've got shit arguments- because you can't justify it other than ranting, resorting to insults or bleatling vaguely that they support 'gentrifiers' - frankly it is you who needs a few knocks to the head if you think attacking a cafe helps any cause....


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Sep 28, 2015)

Remember, we must start from first principles on every thread relating to gentrification, including, it seems, "what is capitalism?"


----------



## sim667 (Sep 28, 2015)

kabbes said:


> £3.19 for 565g from Tesco.
> 
> Groceries


mySupermarket.co.uk - Compare supermarket prices | Online supermarket shopping | Save Money on Top Offers

£2 at sainsbury's..... but I didn't realise they were on offer (though that seemed cheap).

£2.94 usually..... they're still selling it at nearly 20x times the price of a supermarket, and I've no doubt they're buying in cheaper than supermarket price either.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 28, 2015)

Dowie said:


> how do they support 'gentriiers'?
> 
> you can go into any number of bars on that road and see plenty of hipster types, any number of Curry houses and see groups of city bankers... what makes the cereal cafe different?
> 
> This is why you've got shit arguments- because you can't justify it other than ranting, resorting to insults or bleatling vaguely that they support 'gentrifiers' - frankly it is you who needs a few knocks to the head if you think attacking a cafe helps any cause....


they support gentrifiers by providing services aimed at those gentrifiers: just as the estate agents up the road from the cereal cafe isn't aimed at local working class people, but at middle class people moving into the area. it would help if you were prepared to find out what gentrification means and how it works so you could come across with some vague understanding of the social processes under discussion.


----------



## cesare (Sep 28, 2015)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Remember, we must start from first principles on every thread relating to gentrification, including, it seems, "what is capitalism?"


We haven't even started on the difference between regeneration and gentrification yet


----------



## Dowie (Sep 28, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> they support gentrifiers by providing services aimed at those gentrifiers: just as the estate agents up the road from the cereal cafe isn't aimed at local working class people, but at middle class people moving into the area.



how do you know that their customers base is any different to the many bars that have been along that road for years? And again those curry houses are often full of city types not locals... You think there could be so many of them on the same road if they were there to provide to just the local population? Almost the whole of brick lane caters mostly to people who don't live there and has done so for a while.


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 28, 2015)

if we are really lucky diamond will turn up to spin his line about nimbyist racism


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 28, 2015)

Dowie said:


> how do you know that their customers base is any different to the many bars that have been along that road for years? And again those curry houses are often full of city types not locals... You think there could be so many of them on the same road if they were there to provide to just the local population? The whole of brick lane caters mostly to people who don't live there.


how do you know it isn't?


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 28, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> if we are really lucky diamond will turn up to spin his line about nimbyist racism


he's farmed out his responses on these threads to dowie who is standing in so very well for him.


----------



## Dowie (Sep 28, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> how do you know it isn't?


how do I know what isn't?


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 28, 2015)

Dowie said:


> how do I know what isn't?


you see, here's why it's not worth conversing with you because your brain refuses the simplest of jumps.


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 28, 2015)

Dowie said:


> only because you've generally got shit arguments to try and justify it....



It's difficult to disagree with the terminally obtuse.


----------



## Dowie (Sep 28, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> you see, here's why it's not worth conversing with you because your brain refuses the simplest of jumps.



it took several attempts to even get you to justify why the cafe is a problem but the bars and other food establishments aren't... you still haven't been able to come up with a good argument as to why - the not aimed at the local population one is flawed...


----------



## cesare (Sep 28, 2015)

Dowie said:


> it took several attempts to even get you to justify why the cafe is a problem but the bars and other food establishments aren't... you still haven't been able to come up with a good argument as to why - the not aimed at the local population one is flawed...


For goodness sake. It's not hard to work out why a mobile protest took exception to the wankiest looking establishment it passed, is it.


----------



## stethoscope (Sep 28, 2015)

Something about spontaneous actions on a protest and something about a known emblem of gentrification something.


----------



## Dowie (Sep 28, 2015)

cesare said:


> For goodness sake. It's not hard to work out why a mobile protest took exception to the wankiest looking establishment it passed, is it.



well I've got an idea of why... because they've got beards, look like 'hipsters' .. just like the idiots who'd go and attack a mosque after an Islamist attack - tis a mindless mob mentality, go and attack something very loosely associated with people you think are 'the enemy'... they look like the people we don't like etc...

at least no one seems to have a coherent explanation that isn't full of flaws - we've so far just had vague arguments that they serve the 'gentrifiers' and aren't aimed at the 'locals' which could apply to most of the bars and food places on the same road


----------



## stethoscope (Sep 28, 2015)

Dowie said:


> well I've got an idea of why... because they've got beards, look like 'hipsters' .. just like the idiots who'd go and attack a mosque after an Islamist attack - tis a mindless mob mentality, go and attack something very loosely associated with people you think are 'the enemy'... they look like the people we don't like etc...



And we're full circle to this again


----------



## treelover (Sep 28, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> So if you were in a cafe with your wife and neice, and someone threw in a smoke grenade, you'd go outside and start kicking shit out of a 200+ strong mob?



whatever the merits of the protest(I don't think it was a good idea to attack a cereal café, whatever that is) the people inside must have been quite frightened, a mob is a mob.


----------



## Dowie (Sep 28, 2015)

stethoscope said:


> And we're full circle to this again



I was feeling a bit bored, I might leave it in a minute as it is just going round in circles...

at least when people put a brick through McDonald's window there is a bit more justification to it... exploitation of workers, globalization, unethical practicies...


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 28, 2015)

its funny you know, how often I see some broken windows and am reminded of racially motivated pogroms.


----------



## kabbes (Sep 28, 2015)

sim667 said:


> mySupermarket.co.uk - Compare supermarket prices | Online supermarket shopping | Save Money on Top Offers
> 
> £2 at sainsbury's..... but I didn't realise they were on offer (though that seemed cheap).
> 
> £2.94 usually..... they're still selling it at nearly 20x times the price of a supermarket, and I've no doubt they're buying in cheaper than supermarket price either.


Yeah, it was the £2 that brought me up short.  Being on special makes sense though.

Of course, yer average teabag costs about 3p, so anyone selling a cup of tea for a pound is making a 30x markup -- even more extortionate!

Or maybe there are other expenses involved too?


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 28, 2015)

Dowie said:


> it took several attempts to even get you to justify why the cafe is a problem but the bars and other food establishments aren't... you still haven't been able to come up with a good argument as to why - the not aimed at the local population one is flawed...


you haven't asked me to justify why the other bars and food establishments "aren't a problem". and an errant hyphen seems to have crept into your post.


----------



## cesare (Sep 28, 2015)

Dowie said:


> well I've got an idea of why... because they've got beards, look like 'hipsters' .. just like the idiots who'd go and attack a mosque after an Islamist attack - tis a mindless mob mentality, go and attack something very loosely associated with people you think are 'the enemy'... they look like the people we don't like etc...
> 
> at least no one seems to have a coherent explanation that isn't full of flaws - we've so far just had vague arguments that they serve the 'gentrifiers' and aren't aimed at the 'locals' which could apply to most of the bars and food places on the same road


If they shaved their beards off it wouldn't make any difference to the embodiment of piss-taking that they represent. They're a laughing stock for their modern-day-mohican-stylee, granted, but it's more than that. You've got one of those beards and an ironic fixie, admit it.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 28, 2015)

Dowie said:


> I was feeling a bit bored, I might leave it in a minute as it is just going round in circles...


that's you going down the plug hole


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 28, 2015)

Dowie said:


> well I've got an idea of why... because they've got beards, look like 'hipsters' .. just like the idiots who'd go and attack a mosque after an Islamist attack - tis a mindless mob mentality, go and attack something very loosely associated with people you think are 'the enemy'... they look like the people we don't like etc...
> 
> at least no one seems to have a coherent explanation that isn't full of flaws - we've so far just had vague arguments that they serve the 'gentrifiers' and aren't aimed at the 'locals' which could apply to most of the bars and food places on the same road


people who come for an evening to have a curry down brick lane not necessarily gentrifiers. people who visit the cereal cafe almost with exception gentrifiers.


----------



## marty21 (Sep 28, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> people who come for an evening to have a curry down brick lane not necessarily gentrifiers. people who visit the cereal cafe almost with exception gentrifiers.


 what if you go there Ironically?


----------



## Dowie (Sep 28, 2015)

cesare said:


> If they shaved their beards off it wouldn't make any difference to the embodiment of piss-taking that they represent. They're a laughing stock for their modern-day-mohican-stylee, granted, but it's more than that. You've got one of those beards and an ironic fixie, admit it.



yup only a 10 years late Nathan Barely type could possibly question why attacking an independent small cafe full of customers is justified...


----------



## Dowie (Sep 28, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> people who come for an evening to have a curry down brick lane not necessarily gentrifiers. people who visit the cereal cafe almost with exception gentrifiers.



based on what? you don't think there are students in there? I'd bet there are more bankers & estate agents in the curry houses on a Friday night.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 28, 2015)

marty21 said:


> what if you go there Ironically?


more money than sense.


----------



## cesare (Sep 28, 2015)

Dowie said:


> yup only a 10 years late Nathan Barely type could possibly question why attacking an independent small cafe full of customers is justified...


No, only a 10 years late Nathan Barely [sic] type could possibly question [etc] and keep asking the same questions, over and over again, making themselves look thick.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 28, 2015)

Dowie said:


> based on what? you don't think there are students in there? I'd bet there are more bankers & estate agents in the curry houses on a Friday night.


more than what? are students gentrifiers now? tbh not all bankers gentrifiers, nor - strange to say - are all estate agents.


----------



## Dowie (Sep 28, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> more than what? are students gentrifiers now? tbh not all bankers gentrifiers, nor - strange to say - are all estate agents.



estate agents would seem to do more to enable gentrification that independent cafe owners...

no students aren't, as far as I'm aware, usually 'gentrifiers' though you'll likely find some in that sort of cafe... just as you'll likely find bankers in brick lane's curry houses


----------



## treelover (Sep 28, 2015)

> Comment is free
> *I was part of the Cereal Killer cafe protest – here’s why *
> 
> I was part of the Cereal Killer cafe protest – here’s why | Will Harvey



A protester justifies the incident.


----------



## rutabowa (Sep 28, 2015)

killer b said:


> good piece on this by Sam Kriss in Vice ('a plague on both their houses', essentially)
> 
> The Attack on the Cereal Killer Café Was a Fight Between Overgrown Children | VICE | United Kingdom


looks like this was hipsters vs hipsters in a battle of the pointless.


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 28, 2015)

unless its a housing co-op office all estate agents should be bricked and the staff whipped through the streets naked by an angry mob


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 28, 2015)

Dowie said:


> estate agents would seem to do more to enable gentrification that independent cafe owners...
> 
> no students aren't, as far as I'm aware, usually 'gentrifiers' though you'll likely find some in that sort of cafe... just as you'll likely find bankers in brick lane's curry houses


MORE THAN WHAT?


----------



## Dowie (Sep 28, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> MORE THAN WHAT?



 independent cafe owners


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 28, 2015)

Dowie said:


> independent cafe owners


what makes you think independent cafe owners would be in a curry house on a friday night?


----------



## marty21 (Sep 28, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> unless its a housing co-op office all estate agents should be bricked and the staff whipped through the streets naked by an angry mob


Tbh after working for a Housing Co-op years ago I wanted an angry mob after them


----------



## Dowie (Sep 28, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> what makes you think independent cafe owners would be in a curry house on a friday night?



I'm not sure they would be - surely they'd have customers to serve.... and doors to lock when a bunch of twats turn up to 'protest'


----------



## Ax^ (Sep 28, 2015)

Dowie said:


> I'm not sure they would be - surely they'd have customers to charge 4.50 for a bowl of corn flakes ....


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 28, 2015)

Dowie said:


> I'm not sure they would be - surely they'd have customers to serve....


so why'd you suggest some of them would be in curry houses then?


----------



## cesare (Sep 28, 2015)

treelover said:


> A protester justifies the incident.


You sound disapproving


----------



## Dowie (Sep 28, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> so why'd you suggest some of them would be in curry houses then?



I didn't - I suggested that you're likely find bankers in these curry houses


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 28, 2015)

Dowie said:


> I didn't - I suggested that you're likely find bankers in these curry houses


you don't know what you said, do you.


Dowie said:


> based on what? you don't think there are students in there? I'd bet there are more bankers & estate agents in the curry houses on a Friday night.


just fuck off, you don't know what you're arguing, you have no interest in what you're arguing and your posts contradict one another. time for you to sign off perhaps.


----------



## Dowie (Sep 28, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> you don't know what you said, do you.



perhaps you need to re-read the post



Dowie said:


> estate agents would seem to do more to enable gentrification that independent cafe owners...
> 
> no students aren't, as far as I'm aware, usually 'gentrifiers' though you'll likely find some in that sort of cafe... *just as you'll likely find bankers in brick lane's curry houses*



the only comment about cafe owners there is in relation to estate agents doing more than them to enable gentrification...


----------



## Dowie (Sep 28, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> you don't know what you said, do you.
> just fuck off, you don't know what you're arguing, you have no interest in what you're arguing and your posts contradict one another. time for you to sign off perhaps.



perhaps you need to calm down and read properly...

you can't justify the attack so you get angry.. then confused... then throw around insults - maybe time for you to sign off


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 28, 2015)

Dowie said:


> perhaps you need to re-read the post
> 
> 
> 
> the only comment about cafe owners there is in relation to estate agents doing more than them to enable gentrification...


so where's the more than in your post 796 come from then? what's that all about you cunt?


----------



## cesare (Sep 28, 2015)

In any event, it's a great way pour décourager les autres.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 28, 2015)

Dowie said:


> perhaps you need to calm down and read properly...
> 
> you can't justify the attack so you get angry.. then confused... then throw around insults - maybe time for you to sign off


i don't see why i should be riled up just so i can calm down. you don't know what you're saying in posts, you've no fucking idea why in 796 you said there were more bankers and estate agents in curry houses on a friday night - or what the more was than 

time for you to quit, my auld china, while it's only people on this thread think you're a cunt.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 28, 2015)

cesare said:


> In any event, it's a great way pour décourager les autres.


what, people like dowie like gentrifiers? and of course no one wants to be like dowie.


----------



## Dowie (Sep 28, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> so where's the more than in your post 796 come from then? what's that all about you cunt?



still angry I see....  that was in relation to estate agents doing more to enable gentrification that independent cafe owners

you cunt


----------



## cesare (Sep 28, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> what, people like dowie like gentrifiers? and of course no one wants to be like dowie.


Both.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 28, 2015)

Dowie said:


> still angry I see....  that was in relation to estate agents doing more to enable gentrification that independent cafe owners


don't lie.


----------



## Dowie (Sep 28, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> i don't see why i should be riled up just so i can calm down. you don't know what you're saying in posts, you've no fucking idea why in 796 you said there were more bankers and estate agents in curry houses on a friday night - or what the more was than
> 
> time for you to quit, my auld china, while it's only people on this thread think you're a cunt.



no you just didn't read the post properly

Fuck Gentrification - Join the Fuck Parade...Part 3!

I didn't say there were 'more' I said 'you'll likely find bankers in brick lane's curry houses' - go back to the post an re-read it instead of getting worked up over your own error


----------



## Dowie (Sep 28, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> don't lie.



I'm not - learn to read:

'estate agents would seem to do more to enable gentrification that independent cafe owners...'

Fuck Gentrification - Join the Fuck Parade...Part 3!


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 28, 2015)

Dowie said:


> I'm not - learn to read:
> 
> 'estate agents would seem to do more to enable gentrification that independent cafe owners...'
> 
> Fuck Gentrification - Join the Fuck Parade...Part 3!


but what you said (as i say, post 796)


Dowie said:


> based on what? you don't think there are students in there? I'd bet there are more bankers & estate agents in the curry houses on a Friday night.


more than what? you don't know!


----------



## Dowie (Sep 28, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> but what you said (as i say, post 796)
> more than what? you don't know!




that was in reply to your claim that:

 'people who visit the cereal cafe almost with exception gentrifiers.'

I'd bet that there are more bankers and estate agents in the curry houses on a Friday night.

I'd also bet that you'll find plenty of students in the cereal cafe.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 28, 2015)

Dowie said:


> that was in reply to your claim that:
> 
> 'people who visit the cereal cafe almost with exception gentrifiers.'
> 
> ...


so when you say 'more' you don't know what you mean: more than what?

don't bother answering, life's to short to waste with oxygen thieves like you.


----------



## Dowie (Sep 28, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> so when you say 'more' you don't know what you mean: more than what?
> 
> don't bother answering, life's to short to waste with oxygen thieves like you.



it was in direct reply to your comment about the customers of the cafe! 

there are likely more bankers and estate agents in the curry houses of brick lane than the cereal cafe... you thick cunt


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 28, 2015)

Dowie said:


> it was in direct reply to your comment about the customers of the cafe!
> 
> there are likely more bankers and estate agents in the curry houses of brick lane than the cereal cafe... you thick cunt


 but that's utterly irrelevant. it has nothing to do with and nothing to add to the thread - in fact nothing you've "contributed" is of any use towards advancing anyone's understanding of gentrification or the whys and wherefores of the collision with this cafe on saturday. all you've done on this thread is demand answers which in the main have already been given.


----------



## Dowie (Sep 28, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> it was in reply but makes no sense as a reply



it makes plenty of sense if you consider bankers and estate agents to be gentrifiers... but you don't seem to apparently

yet you're happy to argue over an attack on a small business

perhaps I should have just pointed out that you'll likely find more gentrifiers in the curry houses of brick lane on a Friday night, since bankers and estate agents seem to be OK by you...


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 28, 2015)

Dowie said:


> it makes plenty of sense if you consider bankers and estate agents to be gentrifiers... but you don't seem to apparently
> 
> yet you're happy to argue over an attack on a small business
> 
> perhaps I should have just pointed out that you'll likely find more gentrifiers in the curry houses of brick lane on a Friday night, since bankers and estate agents seem to be OK by you...


i don't know why you bother since you plainly don't read the posts to which you affect to reply.


----------



## Dowie (Sep 28, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> i don't know why you bother since you plainly don't read the posts to which you affect to reply.



ironically you spent several posts getting in a huff because you didn't read a post properly...

and you still can't justify why this cafe in particular deserved being targeted above the other food places and bars on the same street


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 28, 2015)

Dowie said:


> ironically you spent several posts getting in a huff because you didn't read a post properly...
> 
> and you still can't justify why this cafe in particular deserved being targeted above the other food places and bars on the same street


i can. but i think you'll find all the answers you seek on the cereal cafe thread - why not troll there for a bit, you auld div.


----------



## Dowie (Sep 28, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> i can. but i think you'll find all the answers you seek on the cereal cafe thread - why not troll there for a bit, you auld div.



all I've seen so far is flawed arguments... and lots of insults, anger etc..


----------



## kabbes (Sep 28, 2015)

The problem with the cereal cafe is not the markup, which is fairly typical for ingredients.  It is not the ease of production -- making tea and putting wholesale cake on a plate is no harder.  It is not even the facial hair.  No, the problem if the cereal cafe is one of crimes against Epicureanism.  Cereal is a very poor quality foodstuff.  It's useful when you need to eat breakfast in 5 minutes but to have it by choice reflects poorly on one's character.

That is why it should have been firebombed, the ground salted and the site nuked from orbit to make sure.


----------



## pinkmonkey (Sep 28, 2015)

Dowie said:


> two working class guys from Belfast set up an unusual food business which attracts media attention - they've got beards and fit a particular stereotype so are now legitimate targets...
> 
> but if they'd set up say a kebab shop or fried chicken place which didn't get media attention and didn't look/dress like 'hipsters' they'd be OK?
> 
> it does seem like 'simple stuff' - like I said before tis just a case of they look like the people we don't like lets attack it...



I really don't get it either, it's lame. They need to keep up. Brick Lane has been a tourist trap for at least a decade. And do we honestly think locals would give a fuck about eating in a novelty restaurant which appeals to tourists,  (because this is what it is, they've opened in Camden too, say no more.)  Isn't this all very much stable door after the horse has bolted? Shouldn't they be firebombing Dalston instead?


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 28, 2015)

pinkmonkey said:


> I really don't get it either, it's lame. They need to keep up. Brick Lane has been a tourist trap for at least a decade. And do we honestly think locals would give a fuck about eating in a novelty restaurant which appeals to tourists,  (because this is what it is, they've opened in Camden too, say no more.)  Isn't this all very much stable door after the horse has bolted? Shouldn't they be firebombing Dalston instead?


no, in hackney we let the council do that


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 28, 2015)




----------



## littlebabyjesus (Sep 28, 2015)

pinkmonkey said:


> I really don't get it either, it's lame. They need to keep up. Brick Lane has been a tourist trap for at least a decade. And do we honestly think locals would give a fuck about eating in a novelty restaurant which appeals to tourists,  (because this is what it is, they've opened in Camden too, say no more.)  Isn't this all very much stable door after the horse has bolted? Shouldn't they be firebombing Dalston instead?


Heygate in Elephant, or something else that is actually ripping communities apart? 

Or is attacking the easiest target you can find the most effective way to make your point? 

It is the most effective way to do something without being arrested, I guess.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Sep 28, 2015)

kabbes said:


> Yeah, it was the £2 that brought me up short.  Being on special makes sense though.
> 
> Of course, yer average teabag costs about 3p, so anyone selling a cup of tea for a pound is making a 30x markup -- even more extortionate!
> 
> Or maybe there are other expenses involved too?






			
				Viz said:
			
		

> I paid £1.20 for a bag of chips from my local chippy the other night. Then a friend told me that they were just bits of potatoes fried in oil. I was furious. There could only have been about 20p's worth of potato and the oil must have cost pennies. No wonder the owner drives a G-reg Nissan *Mick Jones, Liverpool*


----------



## pinkmonkey (Sep 28, 2015)

To be fair, cereal killers cafe mark up needs looking at, If it was in the realms of pizza mark up, that bowl would be at least a tenner.   (Worked for Perfect Pizza as a student, we were permitted to buy a pizza at cost price for our lunch, that was an eye opener).


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 28, 2015)

'what I'd like to know is why these soi-dissant class warriors didn't attack a target that would land them with severe beatings and an 18 stretch like the big bank. Clearly they are plastic because they didn't feed themselves into a judicial mincer'


----------



## cesare (Sep 28, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> 'what I'd like to know is why these soi-dissant class warriors didn't attack a target that would land them with severe beatings and an 18 stretch like the big bank. Clearly they are plastic because they didn't feed themselves into a judicial mincer'


----------



## pinkmonkey (Sep 28, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> no, in hackney we let the council do that


and in Tottenham too.


----------



## Flavour (Sep 28, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> View attachment 77303



let's all just ponder this for a moment


----------



## friedaweed (Sep 28, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> 'what I'd like to know is why these soi-dissant class warriors didn't attack a target that would land them with severe beatings and an 18 stretch like the big bank. Clearly they are plastic because they didn't feed themselves into a judicial mincer'


If you're prepared to dance for the cause mate... you should at least be prepared to have your DBS smudged 

I gave up half way through last night but I'm keen to know if we reached agreement of the fire stetting capabilities of smoke bombs and their current cost? 

What a funny thread


----------



## cesare (Sep 28, 2015)

friedaweed said:


> If you're prepared to dance for the cause mate... you should at least be prepared to have your DBS smudged
> 
> I gave up half way through last night but I'm keen to know if we reached agreement of the fire stetting capabilities of smoke bombs and their current cost?
> 
> What a funny thread


No, we're back round to the questions about why pick on a cafe, cos they're the wankiest establishment around, but how does that justify picking on a cafe, well they're the wankiest establishment around etc etc etc


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 28, 2015)

friedaweed said:


> If you're prepared to dance for the cause mate... you should at least be prepared to have your DBS smudged
> 
> I gave up half way through last night but I'm keen to know if we reached agreement of the fire stetting capabilities of smoke bombs and their current cost?
> 
> What a funny thread


funny haha or funny peculiar? i'd say some from column a and some from column b, in particular the peculiar dowie.


----------



## friedaweed (Sep 28, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> funny haha or funny peculiar? i'd say some from column a and some from column b, in particular the peculiar dowie.


Funny in A,B and C matey. 



cesare said:


> No, we're back round to the questions about why pick on a cafe, cos they're the wankiest establishment around, but how does that justify picking on a cafe, well they're the wankiest establishment around etc etc etc



So a bit of a magic roundabout then with colored smoke


----------



## ffsear (Sep 28, 2015)

Furious mob targets mildly annoying thing


----------



## cesare (Sep 28, 2015)

friedaweed said:


> So a bit of a magic roundabout then with colored smoke



Thassit.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 28, 2015)

ffsear said:


> Furious mob targets mildly annoying thing


i'm getting the feeling you're on of the 40 odd people here.


----------



## cesare (Sep 28, 2015)

ffsear said:


> Furious mob targets mildly annoying thing


When it said "continued below" I thought it was an apposite and passing reference to Private Eye's continued page 74. But no. It actually did


----------



## ska invita (Sep 28, 2015)

2886 comments on the cereal cafe aspect - and theres more on others
must be some kind of a record
The hipster Cereal Killer Cafe owners aren’t the East End’s real enemy | Audrey Gillan


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 28, 2015)

friedaweed said:


> If you're prepared to dance for the cause mate... you should at least be prepared to have your DBS smudged
> 
> I gave up half way through last night but I'm keen to know if we reached agreement of the fire stetting capabilities of smoke bombs and their current cost?
> 
> What a funny thread


If I'm to take a nicking it must only be in the cause of my own financial gain should I avoid the collar being felt #thatcherschildren


----------



## cesare (Sep 28, 2015)

ska invita said:


> 2886 comments on the cereal cafe aspect - and theres more on others
> must be some kind of a record
> The hipster Cereal Killer Cafe owners aren’t the East End’s real enemy | Audrey Gillan


I might have guessed the fucking Guardian readers would be absolutely fuming  Whilst busy doing an about face/save face on Corbyn.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 28, 2015)

cesare said:


> I might have guessed the fucking Guardian readers would be absolutely fuming  Whilst busy doing an about face/save face on Corbyn.


----------



## friedaweed (Sep 28, 2015)

So who are the real fascists here?  

Fuck parade or Jedward?


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 28, 2015)

friedaweed said:


> So who are the real fascists here?
> 
> Fuck parade or Jedward?


anyone who calls themselves jedward has questions to answer


----------



## friedaweed (Sep 28, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> anyone who calls themselves jedward has questions to answer


Ok so the two Irish boys are the fascists so does that mean the one's with the sound systems and the circus skills are the hipsters

When I lived off Brick Lane it was as simple as curry or bagel 

((((((The Old East End)))))


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 28, 2015)

friedaweed said:


> Ok so the two Irish boys are the fascists so does that mean the one's with the sound systems and the circus skills are the hipsters
> 
> When I lived off Brick Lane it was as simple as curry or bagel
> 
> ((((((The Old East End)))))


i think you're setting up a false dichotomy _and _reading things into my post which simply aren't there.


----------



## friedaweed (Sep 28, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> i think you're setting up a false dichotomy _and _reading things into my post which simply aren't there.


No I'm reading the comments section of the Guardian at the same time and was just hoping you'd give me some answers Brother Picman's. It's confusing is this stuff to an outsider/northman 

The hipster Cereal Killer Cafe owners aren’t the East End’s real enemy | Audrey Gillan

I suppose it's like cheese rolling and oatcakes. You've just gotta be local to understand the drama


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Sep 28, 2015)

Cafe round here is offering baby yoga, when Frau Bahn went in and suggested that that was clearly some kind of joke she had to leave in disgrace. When's Class War gonna come and sort this shit out? Huh?


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 28, 2015)

friedaweed said:


> No I'm reading the comments section of the Guardian at the same time and was just hoping you'd give me some answers Brother Picman's. It's confusing is this stuff to an outsider/northman
> 
> The hipster Cereal Killer Cafe owners aren’t the East End’s real enemy | Audrey Gillan
> 
> I suppose it's like cheese rolling and oatcakes. You've just gotta be local to understand the drama


yeh there's something lost in translation i suppose


----------



## friedaweed (Sep 28, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh there's something lost in translation i suppose


I'm going for a kip. It's all too much for me. 

What's the fire eaters all about?


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 28, 2015)

friedaweed said:


> I'm going for a kip. It's all too much for me.
> 
> What's the fire eaters all about?


the 1980s never went away


----------



## Ax^ (Sep 28, 2015)

i still like to know what area of Belfast they come from

because it must be a fucking sleepy berg if that was a terrifying riot to the lads


----------



## friedaweed (Sep 28, 2015)

Ax^ said:


> i still like to know what area of Belfast they come from
> 
> because it must be a fucking sleepy berg if that was a terrifying riot to the lads


That London's made'em soft mate


----------



## treelover (Sep 28, 2015)

> If these protesters had any clue they wouldve used nerf super soakers filled with milk and watch the whole shop go snap, crackle and pop.



posted elsewhere.


----------



## Batboy (Sep 28, 2015)

ska invita said:


> As to only picking soft targets there was nothing soft on the CIty parade - right through the banking sector outnumbered by police - against the odds that day.  This is ultimately a symbolic and demonstrative action though remember - banging on some windows isnt going to make the buildings and institutions disappear...
> 
> One thing thats a bit weak at these is little to no attempt to connect with people and bring them on board. Seems the philosophy behind this is simply to be a mob, and those naturally sympathetic are drawn to the mob and don't need anything explaining to them. It may not be the most effective model, but it is what it is - and as Martin Wright points out, theres an ancient tradition of it. It is what it is, and its pointless asking , why not do this and do that.



They are never going to get the masses on board, it will always be fringe. It will never radically change things although they may get some people to take note. Still seems like they should consider targeting Premiership football clubs, they are the epitome of billionaire greed. They will never do it of course.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Sep 28, 2015)

Batboy said:


> They are never going to get the masses on board, it will always be fringe. It will never radically change things although they may get some people to take note. Still seems like they should consider targeting Premiership football clubs, they are the epitome of billionaire greed. They will never do it of course.



Seeing as only you have ever suggested it, and you don't set their agenda, they probably won't, no.


----------



## Batboy (Sep 28, 2015)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> Seeing as only you have ever suggested it, and you don't set their agenda, they probably won't, no.



Somebody should suggest it to whoever is in charge....


----------



## cesare (Sep 28, 2015)

Batboy said:


> Somebody should suggest it to ever is in charge....


Good luck with that.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Sep 28, 2015)

Batboy said:


> Somebody should suggest it to ever is in charge....



Well as you've mentioned it about ten times and nobody else is interested, there's only one candidate for that really isn't there?


----------



## Batboy (Sep 28, 2015)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> Well as you've mentioned it about ten times and nobody else is interested, there's only one candidate for that really isn't there?



oh for Fuck sake.. have you got their  phone number by chance?


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 28, 2015)

Batboy said:


> Somebody should suggest it to ever is in charge....


when even the cops have grasped the leaderless nature of anarchism only one man refuses to recognise the reality of the situation ^^


----------



## cesare (Sep 28, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> when even the cops have grasped the leaderless nature of anarchism only one man refuses to recognise the reality of the situation ^^



No point telling him, he won't have it.


----------



## purenarcotic (Sep 28, 2015)

Batboy said:


> Somebody should suggest it to ever is in charge....



This is the funniest thing I've read all day.   Brilliant.


----------



## Batboy (Sep 28, 2015)

purenarcotic said:


> This is the funniest thing I've read all day.   Brilliant.



Went over most peoples head...


----------



## Batboy (Sep 28, 2015)

Telephone call just now.....

dials..... 666

Batboy 'Hi is that the anarchist group Class War?'
Person at the end of the phone 'Err Yes... what do you fucking want?'
Batboy ' Can you put me through to the boss?'
Person at other end of phone 'We don't have bosses , we fucking hate bosses grr!'
Batboy ' Err ok er Can I speak to who is in charge?
Person at other end of phone 'Are you taking the piss mate!?'
Batboy' Err no I just wanted to speak to the decision maker'
Person at other end of phone ' We don't have decision makers'
Batboy 'Oh I see well how does anything get decided?'
Person at the other end of the phone '.... silence and muttering'
Batboy 'Right I see... shame I was going to be offering lots of free beer to the boss'
Person at the other end of phone ' hang on I'll just transfer you....same voiced raised by two octaves ' You're through to the boss, can I help you?'


----------



## cesare (Sep 28, 2015)

Ignore The Fucking Hipsters Crying Into Their Cornflakes, Long Live The Fucking #FuckParade


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Sep 28, 2015)

Batboy said:


> Telephone call just now.....
> 
> dials..... 666
> 
> ...


Kind of the opposite of my mate who worked for anarchist printer, little a. An officious type entered the place one day to talk about some tax issue or other and asked who was in charge. Everyone in the place turned round and said 'I am'. Confused him rather.  

That's the beauty of an anarchist workplace. Not that there is nobody in charge, but that everybody is.


----------



## Jon-of-arc (Sep 28, 2015)

Got to page 9, a fair amount of shit chatted from both sides, IMO.

Of course this cafe is gentrification. The reason it's been targetted instead of some nearby overpriced bar is that it has become symbolic of clichéd hipster wankerism, and lazy, price hiking capitalism. Someone comparing it to the markup in pubs. Not really a useful comparison, IMO. Compare it to the markup in a greasy spoon, if you don't want to be comparing apples with oranges. And then accept that the people who own it are chiseling shysters.

As for the protest itself, it is not right to say that anyone who doesn't agree with the methods class war used here is a liberal. That's such tedious "my politics are more hardline than yours, and thus better" bollocks its unbelievable. As I understand it, there were kids in the cafe, and definitely some pretty innocent adults. I'm willing to bet a fair proportion of the cafes customers are not remotely hipsterish. Normal people, who were pretty fucking terrified at the burning effigies, smokebombs, graffiti and masked men outside. Fucking shitting it, I imagine. How anyone can be remotely pleased about this is beyond me.

Of course the place is a valid target for protest, and I would never say that disorder should be off limits as a tactic to use. But this wasn't one of those times.


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 28, 2015)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Kind of the opposite of my mate who worked for anarchist printer, little a. An officious type entered the place one day to talk about some tax issue or other and asked who was in charge. Everyone in the place turned round and said 'I am'. Confused him rather.
> 
> That's the beauty of an anarchist workplace. Not that there is nobody in charge, but that everybody is.


How did they sort out the tax issue?


----------



## Steel Icarus (Sep 28, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> You can only protest if you live there and it directly affects you?
> 
> Better go tell all the Palestine Solidarity pickets to piss off home then.



 

I didn't mention or suggest who should be "allowed" to protest - merely posed a couple of questions regarding how the protest was organised, by whom and who for/with etc.


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 28, 2015)

Batboy said:


> They are never going to get the masses on board, it will always be fringe. It will never radically change things although they may get some people to take note.



Atheism was once in this position but rather more popular nowadays in the UK. This shit only happens through consent. Every dog has its day.


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 28, 2015)

S☼I said:


> View attachment 77325
> 
> I didn't mention or suggest who should be "allowed" to protest - merely posed a couple of questions regarding how the protest was organised, by whom and who for/with etc.



You followed on from a previous post which was pushing things that way. Perhaps I should have quoted that one but I followed that branch of discussion and was too lazy to click backwards.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 28, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> Atheism was once in this position but rather more popular nowadays in the UK. This shit only happens through consent. Every dog has its day.


every rose has a thorn. and every night has its dawn. and every cowboy sings a sad, sad song.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Sep 28, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> You followed on from a previous post which was pushing things that way. Perhaps I should have quoted that one but I followed that branch of discussion and was too lazy to click backwards.



What I'm getting at is - what are the aims of a protest such as this? Does it help local people? How does it? (These are not rhetorical, I'm not doing the teacher thing of asking questions I already know the answer to, I'm just wondering how something like this will "reach" the wider public given it's only going to be reported as "hate-filled mob threaten cafe-goers" etc)


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 28, 2015)

S☼I said:


> What I'm getting at is - what are the aims of a protest such as this? Does it help local people? How does it? (These are not rhetorical, I'm not doing the teacher thing of asking questions I already know the answer to, I'm just wondering how something like this will "reach" the wider public given it's only going to be reported as "hate-filled mob threaten cafe-goers" etc)



This is CW's visible stuff. It generates discussion and small amounts of change (such as poor doors entering into the vocabulary). Most of them involved in less visible stuff though afaik. It's not like they smash a window and then fuck off home til the next bit of aggro. If that's what you think it's a massive misreading.


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 28, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> every rose has a thorn. and every night has its dawn. and every cowboy sings a sad, sad song.



Didn't have you pegged as a Cinderella fan. 80s thrash stuff way more political.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Sep 28, 2015)

ok, ta, not what I thought, didn't think much really, just asking questions kid.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Sep 28, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> Didn't have you pegged as a Cinderella fan. 80s thrash stuff way more political.



that's Poison, not Cinderella


----------



## Ax^ (Sep 28, 2015)




----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 28, 2015)

S☼I said:


> that's Poison, not Cinderella



Pickman's definitely a fan of poison.


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 28, 2015)

Cinderella had an equally cheesy track which I forget now.


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 28, 2015)

S☼I said:


> just asking questions kid.



It's debatable, but not a foregone conclusion that I'm younger than you.


----------



## Andrew Hertford (Sep 28, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> you sound thick as pig-shit



The gentry against gentrification!


----------



## Steel Icarus (Sep 28, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> It's debatable, but not a foregone conclusion that I'm younger than you.



 Soz, I often call people kid, it's something I got from my Tynesider nanna rather than an attempt to infantilize. Suspect you may have a couple of years on me, mind, I'm 44


----------



## Lurdan (Sep 28, 2015)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Kind of the opposite of my mate who worked for anarchist printer, little a. An officious type entered the place one day to talk about some tax issue or other and asked who was in charge. Everyone in the place turned round and said 'I am'. Confused him rather.
> 
> That's the beauty of an anarchist workplace. Not that there is nobody in charge, but that everybody is.


Great story although not one I remember. I do recall a VAT inspector coming to do a scheduled inspection (back in the days that this was fairly routine) and going through the books with me. As the afternoon wore on I became aware that he was dropping the odd reference to Cienfuegos Press and to well known anarchists. Already somewhat on guard I became increasingly paranoid as to what this visit was actually about. Anyhow he left apparently satisfied and after I'd had a cup of coffee and calmed down it occurred to me that he was actually indicating that he had read some anarchist stuff and was not unsympathetic


----------



## Steel Icarus (Sep 28, 2015)

Tags on this thread are aces btw


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 28, 2015)

What sort of tax system would we have under anarchism?


----------



## cesare (Sep 28, 2015)

S☼I said:


> Tags on this thread are aces btw


ClassWar2015 has missed a trick there


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 28, 2015)

S☼I said:


> Soz, I often call people kid, it's something I got from my Tynesider nanna rather than an attempt to infantilize. Suspect you may have a couple of years on me, mind, I'm 44



I'm 41. Dad.


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 28, 2015)

Andrew Hertford said:


> The gentry against gentrification!



It turns brilliant now!


----------



## Steel Icarus (Sep 28, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> I'm 41. Dad.



Ok, fair enough...

...kid


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 28, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> Didn't have you pegged as a Cinderella fan. 80s thrash stuff way more political.


bill and ted trying to get into heaven


----------



## cesare (Sep 28, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> It turns brilliant now!


I thought this thread couldn't get any better, but no.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 28, 2015)

Andrew Hertford said:


> The gentry against gentrification!


don't try to be funny, you know it always ends with you looking stupid


----------



## cesare (Sep 28, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> don't try to be funny, you know it always ends with you looking stupid


No, it starts with him looking stupid. It ends with him looking much more stupid.


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 28, 2015)

We'll hopefully get a good five pages of foreplay.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 28, 2015)

cesare said:


> No, it starts with him looking stupid. It ends with him looking much more stupid.


like plato's ideal of stupidity


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 28, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> We'll hopefully get a good five pages of foreplay.


before he gets fucked d'you mean? he's fucked now.


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 28, 2015)

I'm sure there's several threads awaiting his attention.


----------



## Zabo (Sep 28, 2015)

Being discussed on _R4's The World Tonight_. Probably available as a podcast tomorrow.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 28, 2015)

Zabo said:


> Being discussed on _R4's The World Tonight_. Probably available as a podcast tomorrow.


what Andrew Hertford?


----------



## BlackArab (Sep 28, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> Gentrification _helps_ people.
> 
> Gonna need some supporting evidence for this one I think.



Actually it's something I certainly have seen in my lifetime. Obviously doesn't ring true for all but I can think of many I know personally that I grew up with in St Pauls, Bristol that didn't give a flying fuck about leaving it behind and moving out, my Mother included. Certainly met many of her fellow retirees (sp) in Jamaica who retired happily after selling up. Can think of a small mansion owned by a retired couple near her house over there. He was a bus driver and she was a nurse but they did well out of selling the family home in Notting Hill as you can imagine!

On the flipside I have also seen working class areas too that have become fashionable with the middle classes and priced out the locals and how an area's reputation for radical politics, squats and a free party scene itself attracts the hipsters and the businesses that cater for them swiftly followed by the property developers.

Stokes Croft, riots in 2011. This 12 months later: Let's move to Stokes Croft, Bristol


----------



## BlackArab (Sep 28, 2015)

stethoscope said:


> Quite.
> 
> Also, given its area, anybody think the 'edgy' play on 'serial killer' is proper iffy. Just like that fucking Women'sRipper museum.



given its area I would say wearing pig masks was a bit iffy myself


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 28, 2015)

Batboy said:


> Telephone call just now.....
> 
> dials..... 666
> 
> ...


I'd put on a falsetto voice and pretend to be boss if you were offering free beer.

God knows I am no anarchist but it aint half hilarious to see you small businesmen and 'friends to the working man' (LOL) get the crit arse backwards


----------



## cesare (Sep 28, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> I'd put on a falsetto voice and pretend to be boss if you were offering free beer.
> 
> God knows I am no anarchist but it aint half hilarious to see you small businesmen and 'friends to the working man' (LOL) get the crit arse backwards


It's every bit as hilarious as the new jokes thread.


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 28, 2015)

cesare said:


> It's every bit as hilarious as the new jokes thread.


'new' jokes. Oh how fondly I remember them.


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 28, 2015)

Jon-of-arc said:


> Normal people, who were pretty fucking terrified at the burning effigies


what normal person eats cereal at gone 9 on a saturday night? unless he's high and in his own house

No a terrible beauty was born here. First we take the cereal cafes. And then berlin.


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 28, 2015)

S☼I said:


> What I'm getting at is - what are the aims of a protest such as this? Does it help local people? How does it? (These are not rhetorical, I'm not doing the teacher thing of asking questions I already know the answer to, I'm just wondering how something like this will "reach" the wider public given it's only going to be reported as "hate-filled mob threaten cafe-goers" etc)


thats called the socratic method. In any case I expect nothing from class war except these sort of things, what else are they supposed to do. The womens division is called 'the womens death brigade' ffs. How is anyone going to take that seriously? Only I think thats the point. Situationism etc?


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 28, 2015)

BlackArab said:


> Actually it's something I certainly have seen in my lifetime. Obviously doesn't ring true for all but I can think of many I know personally that I grew up with in St Pauls, Bristol that didn't give a flying fuck about leaving it behind and moving out, my Mother included. Certainly met many of her fellow retirees (sp) in Jamaica who retired happily after selling up. Can think of a small mansion owned by a retired couple near her house over there. He was a bus driver and she was a nurse but they did well out of selling the family home in Notting Hill as you can imagine!
> 
> On the flipside I have also seen working class areas too that have become fashionable with the middle classes and priced out the locals and how an area's reputation for radical politics, squats and a free party scene itself attracts the hipsters and the businesses that cater for them swiftly followed by the property developers.
> 
> Stokes Croft, riots in 2011. This 12 months later: Let's move to Stokes Croft, Bristol



If we're playing by the rules of neo-liberals though, and Im not suggesting it always results in something bad for people, they're not necessarily exercising choice either, are they?


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 28, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> God knows I am no anarchist but



Your journey there is a painfully slow one.


----------



## treelover (Sep 29, 2015)

> Then a little dog _(I think it was a French bulldog)_ pelted down the street, absolutely terrified and trying desperately to escape the mob who were kicking at it, throwing cans of beer at it, and trying to rip the poor creature apart with their bare hands. For a moment I was only worried about two things; _one, that the dog would run into incoming traffic and be crushed; two, what happened to the dog's owner - had he/she been attacked by these thugs_?
> 
> #FuckParade - An Eyewitness Account and TWO Open Letters  | Posh, Broke, & Bored - International luxury lifestyle blog




One blogger, is swearing blind the protesters kicked and hurt a small dog, this is hard to believe, but she claims she saw it, baffled by that sort of behaviour

then again, RTS used to attract some dubious characters.


----------



## treelover (Sep 29, 2015)

> I really appreciate your comment, not just because it's an insight into the problem of gentrification, but also because you've pointed out a very important sentiment that I share: that a lot of people online are criticising me because they judge me as 'posh', or as some put it: "a Tory" (by the way, I have no solid political opinion because I simply am not eligible to vote). I've been addressed by many with a venomous "Tory (insert vulgar noun)" - to which I think, what does my political affiliation (if any?) have to do with this? *Why do they think "Tory" is an insult (I certainly don't, but if they do than that says more about them than it does of me)?[/*QUOTE]
> 
> she isn't exactly politically savvy, btw,


----------



## treelover (Sep 29, 2015)

> If their eyes weren't so unclouded by hate maybe they could see the real problem for what it is - not a bunch of "capitalist-posho-Tories" but rather, a housing crisis created by people willing to pay extortionate prices for property they don't intend to live in. x 0


----------



## cesare (Sep 29, 2015)

Posh, Broke & Bored drips privilege from her supercilious pennings. Ugh.


----------



## xenon (Sep 29, 2015)

Why are you quoting this  incoherent logically flawed rubbish. And why not post a link to that which you quote.  Mindless copy and paste.  Sorry but it just annoys me.


----------



## xenon (Sep 29, 2015)

Anyway this thread is still a bit bonkers.  You can't protest against gentrification, property prices,  economic class cleansing. Unless you have a committee.  Write a sternly worded letter to the local council or something. 

 I still think SKC was a daft target.  But no point crying over spilt milk. Or overpriced fucking shredded wheat.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Sep 29, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> thats called the socratic method. In any case I expect nothing from class war except these sort of things, what else are they supposed to do. The womens division is called 'the womens death brigade' ffs. How is anyone going to take that seriously? Only I think thats the point. Situationism etc?


It's a pretty empty spectacle, though. I don't decry the tactic necessarily, but I question the target. If you're going to don a balaclava and step out into the streets intent on making a statement, should you be daubing slogans on the windows of a silly novelty cafe, or should you be smashing in the windows of Foxtons? Then waiting for them to repair the windows and going and smashing them in again?


----------



## Batboy (Sep 29, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> I'd put on a falsetto voice and pretend to be boss if you were offering free beer.
> 
> God knows I am no anarchist but it aint half hilarious to see you small businesmen and 'friends to the working man' (LOL) get the crit arse backwards



I have always championed the working man and small businesses... Some of you just don't get it or thinks it's possible, the world is not black and white. You and others symbolise this.

My grandmother was a small businesswoman (A shopkeeper) she also worked as a warden in the blitz pulling out the injured and the dead in Londons East End. She never made shit loads of money (As I don't , many people employed earn way more than I do, including Electricians ... take note Citizen 66), so my family never inherited any great fortune and I lived with a mentally ill mother who couldn't work and we had jack shit. I went through hell as a kid , I know what its like to be poor and suffer, many on here moaning don't.

My background has been well listed on these forums, some of you cannot grasp that a person that can climb from abject poverty and an abusive domestic life can make good and still have credibility, this is the politics of envy. I don't buy it, mock and lol all you want.

I have watched with dismay, the economic events of in particular the last 15 years. The housing market out of control, the lack of affordable housing, the lower paid being worse off, the rich getting richer,  the ridiculous wars started without any intelligent foresight. I have been wholly opposed to all of this and acknowledge that a massive correction needs to take place.

Jeremy Corbyn is my local MP, I have met the guy on many occasions and he knows my views, he is well known to me, my next door neighbour worked in his office with him when he was in Blackstock road. He is an honest and good man with forthright views. I was hugely pleased that he won the leadership election, I doubt I would agree with all of his views, but there is a huge dose of intelligent socialism needed across the richer nations. I will probably vote for him, which may surprise you. The media are slagging him and it is backfiring on them, they are scared of him, he is no Michael Foot.

The way I see it is that politics are way to polarised and confrontational. From the Eton toffs and political elite to the likes of Class War. We need to work together not have yo-yo views and fuck you cunts on the other side as we have in the past. The world is fucked up still as it always has been, communism and marxism didn't work and Capitalism or whatever you want to call it is overstuffed with greed and clearly out of control.


----------



## Batboy (Sep 29, 2015)

xenon said:


> Anyway this thread is still a bit bonkers.  You can't protest against gentrification, property prices,  economic class cleansing. Unless you have a committee.  Write a sternly worded letter to the local council or something.
> 
> I still think SKC was a daft target.  But no point crying over spilt milk. Or overpriced fucking shredded wheat.




To be fair a sternly written letter to the council, is going to do fuck all.


----------



## Batboy (Sep 29, 2015)

To treelover
Agree with you on this. An unregulated housing market has been fuelled by greed on every property owners case and massively helped by allowing the foreign rich to invest and speculate. It is the modern gold rush equivalent of the wild west. The Russian and Chinese billionaires in particular have swamped in to this country and with our own population being encouraged to buy to let we have moved away from tangible business economy to that of a casino economy.... the winning streak will come to a mighty end... it always does.


----------



## Batboy (Sep 29, 2015)

treelover said:


> One blogger, is swearing blind the protesters kicked and hurt a small dog, this is hard to believe, but she claims she saw it, baffled by that sort of behaviour
> 
> then again, RTS used to attract some dubious characters.



French Bulldog = Bourgeois , explains why justified target... pitiful/staff cross is working class and credible.


----------



## seventh bullet (Sep 29, 2015)

cesare said:


> Posh, Broke & Bored drips privilege from her supercilious pennings. Ugh.



She's probably spent more on her recent jaunt to Russia than my 7 trips in the last decade combined and she's seen fuck all apart from the inside of luxury hotels and shops.


----------



## Batboy (Sep 29, 2015)

Nice one said:


> what is your idea of militant working class fun
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Gentrification isn't actually new, areas have ebbed and flowed over the hundreds of years. Islington was a prime example of this. The old Georgian and Victorian  houses were originally owned by the rich and middle classes, they then left to leave the smog filled cities and the area went downhill and become quite run down. Over the last 30 years it went the other way, there are places all around the UK that have done this.

Leytonstone was originally a posh area that went downwards and has now come upwards. 

Gants Hill in the suburbs was an affluent Jewish neighbourhood where I once went to  school, is one that in my view has gone downwards. It can go the other way too.


The problem isn't gentrification or whatever you want to call it, it is out of control property prices and the scale of gap between the haves and have nots and the fact that the benefits of regenerating an area very often fail the locals.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 29, 2015)

Batboy said:


> Gentrification isn't actually new, areas have ebbed and flowed over the hundreds of years. Islington was a prime example of this. The old Georgian and Victorian  houses were originally owned by the rich and middle classes, they then left to leave the smog filled cities and the area went downhill and become quite run down. Over the last 30 years it went the other way, there are places all around the UK that have done this.
> 
> Leytonstone was originally a posh area that went downwards and has now come upwards.
> 
> ...


gentrificatuon is different frim the natural ebb and flow of areas, and it is disappointing to see this auld canard it's old repeated.


----------



## Batboy (Sep 29, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> gentrificatuon is different frim the natural ebb and flow of areas, and it is disappointing to see this auld canard it's old repeated.



Disagree with you. The only difference is the pace, everything in life here has got quicker. Regeneration happens quicker, property speculation happens quicker and so is poverty.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 29, 2015)

Batboy said:


> Disagree with you. The only difference is the pace, everything in life here has got quicker. Regeneration happens quicker, property speculation happens quicker and so is poverty.


no, the difference is not one gentrified area has ever 'declined': so much for your speed bit. the difference is local govdrnmrnt and national government are actively involved: as gentrifiers. the difference is no more accommodation is coming on the market for working class (or, to be fair, many m/c people) while cpuncil estates are knocked down to make way for yuppie flats. the difference is that what you affect to see, and what lovecraft described in 'the street', is not what is happening now.


----------



## BigTom (Sep 29, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> How would I exist in a society that didn't have trade as its core mechanism? Is this the only model that can work then? How do things develop that don't involve trade?


There's gifting economies, which exists at burning man and in some tribal societies but seems like a hippy dream to me in anything other than a post scarcity society. Open source/freeware fits with this idea.

Not sure if mutual aid counts as trading, I do something for you/give you something without getting anything in return but knowing that you/someone else will give me something further down the line, there's an implicit exchange there still, so still trading I reckon.

Math trades (invented by Americans to swap board games so correctly spelt, to my annoyance) are still definitely trading but allow mass bartering so could work without exchange tokens. What happens is everyone posts up what they have to swap, then go through the list saying I'll so a for b or c or d &e and then a computer works out and optimal trade swap amongst the group. A gives to B who gives to C who gives to A but with dozens/hundreds of people. Doesn't exist outside of boardgamegeek.com yet afaik.


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 29, 2015)

BigTom said:


> There's gifting economies, which exists at burning man and in some tribal societies but seems like a hippy dream to me in anything other than a post scarcity society. Open source/freeware fits with this idea.
> 
> Not sure if mutual aid counts as trading, I do something for you/give you something without getting anything in return but knowing that you/someone else will give me something further down the line, there's an implicit exchange there still, so still trading I reckon.
> 
> Math trades (invented by Americans to swap board games so correctly spelt, to my annoyance) are still definitely trading but allow mass bartering so could work without exchange tokens. What happens is everyone posts up what they have to swap, then go through the list saying I'll so a for b or c or d &e and then a computer works out and optimal trade swap amongst the group. A gives to B who gives to C who gives to A but with dozens/hundreds of people. Doesn't exist outside of boardgamegeek.com yet afaik.



But this still comes from the angle that everyone does things seperately then play swaps. Rather than seeing production as a community effort with the sum total being divvied up.


----------



## Dan U (Sep 29, 2015)

Regardless of what you think of the protest it was a genius target from a media coverage point of view. 

Still in the Guardian today and I saw some tweets linking to a Times article saying protest was headed by middle class professor (they were on about Lisa Mckenzie)


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 29, 2015)

littlebabyjesus said:


> It's a pretty empty spectacle, though.


it seems to have generated the desired level of outrage and focused attention though. The estate agents window that was also done is all but forgotten in this rush to condemn the heinous crime of smoking out a cereal cafe


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 29, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> it seems to have generated the desired level of outrage and focused attention though. The estate agents window that was also done is all but forgotten in this rush to condemn the heinous crime of smoking out a cereal cafe


yeh and the windows of the cereal cafe not even broken.


----------



## cesare (Sep 29, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> it seems to have generated the desired level of outrage and focused attention though. The estate agents window that was also done is all but forgotten in this rush to condemn the heinous crime of smoking out a cereal cafe


Lower orders being disrespectful about our property - full seethe ahead.


----------



## Belushi (Sep 29, 2015)

They're protesting against the Jack the Ripper 'Museum' on Sunday :thumbs :


----------



## cesare (Sep 29, 2015)

Belushi said:


> They're protesting against the Jack the Ripper 'Museum' on Sunday :thumbs :


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 29, 2015)

cesare said:


> Lower orders being disrespectful about our property - full seethe ahead.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Sep 29, 2015)

Jon-of-arc said:


> Got to page 9, a fair amount of shit chatted from both sides, IMO.
> 
> Of course this cafe is gentrification. The reason it's been targetted instead of some nearby overpriced bar is that it has become symbolic of clichéd hipster wankerism, and lazy, price hiking capitalism. Someone comparing it to the markup in pubs. Not really a useful comparison, IMO. Compare it to the markup in a greasy spoon, if you don't want to be comparing apples with oranges. And then accept that the people who own it are chiseling shysters.
> 
> ...


Agree with this, basically. As far as I can see all that CW have achieved with this is to make themselves look a bit pathetic and ensure that the next Fuck Parade will be policed to death.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Sep 29, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> it seems to have generated the desired level of outrage and focused attention though. The estate agents window that was also done is all but forgotten in this rush to condemn the heinous crime of smoking out a cereal cafe


Perhaps that points to their mistake. I think they have the meanings of this stuff all arse-about-tit, tbh. Even if you think the CKC is in poor taste, ill-conceived, or even a waste of space, it is a small, independent, quirky venture of the very kind that gentrification drives out. Gentrification in the form of massive hikes in rents tends towards the spread of chains and homogenisation. 

What's the difference between urban regeneration, something an area like Brick Lane really needed 20-odd years ago, and gentrification? How can you have the former without the latter? Surely the answer has to come down to property prices and domestic and business rents. This attack does nothing to highlight that. CW just appears to be acting like taste police.


----------



## rutabowa (Sep 29, 2015)

class war are definitely the hipsters of protest.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 29, 2015)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Perhaps that points to their mistake. I think they have the meanings of this stuff all arse-about-tit, tbh. Even if you think the CKC is in poor taste, ill-conceived, or even a waste of space, it is a small, independent, quirky venture of the very kind that gentrification drives out. Gentrification in the form of massive hikes in rents tends towards the spread of chains and homogenisation.


bollocks. it is the sort of small, independent 'quirky' venture of which gentrification is made.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Sep 29, 2015)

Jon-of-arc said:


> Of course this cafe is gentrification. The reason it's been targetted instead of some nearby overpriced bar is that it has become symbolic of clichéd hipster wankerism, and lazy, price hiking capitalism. Someone comparing it to the markup in pubs. Not really a useful comparison, IMO. Compare it to the markup in a greasy spoon, if you don't want to be comparing apples with oranges. And then accept that the people who own it are chiseling shysters.



I'd want to know a lot more about them before making that kind of judgement. What do they pay their staff, for instance? What role does the rent they pay play in their prices? Is it their fault if they have to pay huge rents? Who should be targetted for that? 

I don't even know what 'cliched hipster wankerism' is, tbh, other than 'something I don't like the look of'.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 29, 2015)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I'd want to know a lot more about them before making that kind of judgement.


why not read the thread devoted to their sordid little business?


----------



## The Flying Pig (Sep 29, 2015)

xenon said:


> Anyway this thread is still a bit bonkers.  You can't protest against gentrification, property prices,  economic class cleansing. Unless you have a committee.  Write a sternly worded letter to the local council or something.
> 
> I still think SKC was a daft target.  But no point crying over spilt milk. Or overpriced fucking shredded wheat.


And as per usual with these sort of actions therein lies the problem.   "But no point crying over spilt milk." I for one have heard this quote far too many times by those whose actions have just been too stupid. It is the quote a teenager makes to absolve from any form of responsiblity for their actions.


----------



## rutabowa (Sep 29, 2015)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I don't even know what 'cliched hipster wankerism' is


It's the guys on the class war thing and the guys in the cafe


----------



## rutabowa (Sep 29, 2015)

and me, standing on the sidelines taking swipes at all of them.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 29, 2015)

The Flying Pig said:


> And as per usual with these sort of actions therein lies the problem.   "But no point crying over spilt milk." I for one have heard this quote far too many times by those whose actions have just been too stupid. It is the quote a teenager makes to absolve from any form of responsiblity for their actions.


you're not the fullest pint in the pub. 

it's a fucking CEREAL CAFE. CEREAL. cereal goes with MILK. do you get it now?


----------



## cesare (Sep 29, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> you're not the fullest pint in the pub.
> 
> it's a fucking CEREAL CAFE. CEREAL. cereal goes with MILK. do you get it now?


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 29, 2015)

you are cliched hipster wankerism?


----------



## The Flying Pig (Sep 29, 2015)

cesare said:


>


No not funny


----------



## cesare (Sep 29, 2015)

The Flying Pig said:


> No not funny


Do one with your pie and mash mate that signed up at the same time as you


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 29, 2015)

The Flying Pig said:


> No not funny


i bet you're the sort of person who found 'oh dr beeching' hilarious.


----------



## The Flying Pig (Sep 29, 2015)

The Flying Pig said:


> No not funny


Good job they are not a football team, they have scored far too many own goals


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 29, 2015)

The Flying Pig said:


> Good job they are not a football team, they have scored far too many own goals


are you referring to yourself in the third person like some pretentious wanker?


----------



## The Flying Pig (Sep 29, 2015)

Here we go. Keep the abuse coming.


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 29, 2015)

say something about ninjas or pirates.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 29, 2015)

The Flying Pig said:


> Here we go. Keep the abuse coming.


go on, you've got another ten seconds. say something outrageous.


----------



## rutabowa (Sep 29, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> View attachment 77379
> you are cliched hipster wankerism?


Yes, that was indeed my straightforward point.


----------



## The Flying Pig (Sep 29, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> are you referring to yourself in the third person like some pretentious wanker?


surely you can be more abusive than that. Go on really give it your best shot


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 29, 2015)

rutabowa said:


> Yes, that was indeed my straightforward point.


i'm sorry to hear it.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 29, 2015)

The Flying Pig said:


> surely you can be more abusive than that. Go on really give it your best shot


no. a pool of putrescent vomit like you isn't worth me making an effort.


----------



## The Flying Pig (Sep 29, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> no. a pool of putrescent vomit like you isn't worth me making an effort.


Is that it?


----------



## The Flying Pig (Sep 29, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> say something about ninjas or pirates.


I thought the "n" word was banned on these pages. Too many seem to be very sensitive about their weekend attire.


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 29, 2015)

cesare said:


> Do one with your pie and mash mate that signed up at the same time as you



Thunderfist?


----------



## cesare (Sep 29, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> Thunderfist?


pieandmashfirm


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 29, 2015)

I wondered which poster was their Fash mate


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 29, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> I wondered which poster was their Fash mate


yeh no danger of a wide circle of friends there.


----------



## BigTom (Sep 29, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> But this still comes from the angle that everyone does things seperately then play swaps. Rather than seeing production as a community effort with the sum total being divvied up.



Yeah it does, I think the global economy is too complicated/big to work it in that way (not meaning to tar by association but the Project Venus loons reckon it could be done with computers working out what goes where, I don't reckon it could be done). So you could have communities acting like that, in a way that families or communes might do now, but there'd still need to be swaps done between communities or individuals, which would need some kind of mechanism(s) to happen.


----------



## Lurcio (Sep 29, 2015)

... "Israeli scumbag property developers" ...

and (for balance) can we throw in "Pakistani, third generation, amoral, rent seeking, spivvy twats", also??


----------



## Lurcio (Sep 29, 2015)

Lurcio said:


> ... "Israeli scumbag property developers" ...
> 
> and (for balance) can we throw in "Pakistani, third generation, amoral, rent seeking, spivvy twats", also??



... and they, also, vote Tory!


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 29, 2015)

Lurcio said:


> ... "Israeli scumbag property developers" ...
> 
> and (for balance) can we throw in "Pakistani, third generation, amoral, rent seeking, spivvy twats", also??


when you have a pakistani buying camden market and turning it into yuppie flats, yes, then you can.


----------



## Supine (Sep 29, 2015)

Batboy said:


> I have always championed the working man and small businesses... Some of you just don't get it or thinks it's possible, the world is not black and white. You and others symbolise this.
> 
> My grandmother was a small businesswoman (A shopkeeper) she also worked as a warden in the blitz pulling out the injured and the dead in Londons East End. She never made shit loads of money (As I don't , many people employed earn way more than I do, including Electricians ... take note Citizen 66), so my family never inherited any great fortune and I lived with a mentally ill mother who couldn't work and we had jack shit. I went through hell as a kid , I know what its like to be poor and suffer, many on here moaning don't.
> 
> ...



Great post. Sums up my thoughts but written mich bitter


----------



## Supine (Sep 29, 2015)

My problem with gentrification is that it assumes lots of 'poor people' are making some exodus somewhere worse and that richer people are moving in. It doesn't account for the fact that in a good economy like ours people in general get richer as time goes by. It's not necessarily new rich people who live in an area, it's just people getting on and earning a few more bob.

Going after a 'hipster' place to me is just some stupid us and them division. If you care that people wear beards or eat stupid food in cafes it's you who has the problem. It's the dislike of something different, like racism or sexism or whatever. Divide and rule wins yet again.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 29, 2015)

Supine said:


> My problem with gentrification is that it assumes lots of 'poor people' are making some exodus somewhere worse and that richer people are moving in. It doesn't account for the fact that in a good economy like ours people in general get richer as time goes by. It's not necessarily new rich people who live in an area, it's just people getting on and earning a few more bob.
> 
> Going after a 'hipster' place to me is just some stupid us and them division. If you care that people wear beards or eat stupid food in cafes it's you who has the problem. It's the dislike of something different, like racism or sexism or whatever. Divide and rule wins yet again.


if people are getting richer all the time then why are more children in poverty now than there were in 2010? have you utterly ignored the huge increase in rents which london's seen over the past 10 years? fuck it - you're full of shit on this one, supine, though i hope you're heart's in the right place.


----------



## fredfelt (Sep 29, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> bollocks. it is the sort of small, independent 'quirky' venture of which gentrification is made.



Would you include a bagel shop in your definition?

They may not be quirky now, but I seem to remember a time when bagels were a novelty.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 29, 2015)

fredfelt said:


> Would you include a bagel shop in your definition?
> 
> They may not be quirky now, but I seem to remember a time when bagels were a novelty.


do you bother reading my posts?


----------



## Belushi (Sep 29, 2015)

fredfelt said:


> Would you include a bagel shop in your definition?
> 
> They may not be quirky now, but I seem to remember a time when bagels were a novelty.



The 1850's?


----------



## fredfelt (Sep 29, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> do you bother reading my posts?


I take notice of the occasional one. Although I admit most of what is said here passes my by unnoticed.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 29, 2015)

fredfelt said:


> I take notice of the occasional one. Although I admit most of what is said here passes my by unnoticed.


yeh. well i have addressed the issue of the brick lane bagel shops earlier, whether on this thread or the cereal cafe thread, i don't recall which.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Sep 29, 2015)

I think there's some confusion here about what gentrification is.

My definition of gentrification would be the driving out of an existing demographic over time through increases in house prices and rents. Such social cleansing might happen in an unplanned way over a number of years, as has been happening in Hackney, or in a brutal, planned way far more quickly, as is happening in Elephant now. 

What doesn't happen is for shops, restaurants and bars to open up that then drive poorer people away from an area. If they have affordable rents in social housing, people stay put during gentrification processes and there are generally plenty of places within their price range as well in the area even post-gent, although the disappearance of markets etc to be replaced by avaricious chains is a big problem. Cereal Killers and their ilk - little places replacing other little places - have driven nobody out.


----------



## Supine (Sep 29, 2015)

Not sure if this has been posted

View From The Side: Class War, Cereal Killer And Gentrification


----------



## fredfelt (Sep 29, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh. well i have addressed the issue of the brick lane bagel shops earlier, whether on this thread or the cereal cafe thread, i don't recall which.



At the risk of repeating an idea - which I'm sure I am doing on such a big thread....

My grumble about our high streets is the their take over by corporations.  They pay shite and suck cash out of the local and national economy.  With small and local business on our high street it typically means the money stays local and circulates locally.  

It's not just the cash, it's all the other networks that occur when people trade with other people locally.  I mean that in the broad sense of businesses and customers.  These networks just don't happen with chains.  

This cafe is not to my tastes at all.  However there are plenty shops, large and small which are not to my taste.  In my mind a measure of a healthy high street is a varied high street where small shops are able to draw enough custom for them to operate - what they do is of far less consequence.

A sense of place occurs when local people are able to live and work in their community.  It's not like a chain came and took business from other similar locally owned business.  I can't see how this stupid cafe will contribute to other shops closing.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 29, 2015)

fredfelt said:


> At the risk of repeating an idea - which I'm sure I am doing on such a big thread....
> 
> My grumble about our high streets is the their take over by corporations.  They pay shite and suck cash out of the local and national economy.  With small and local business on our high street it typically means the money stays local and circulates locally.
> 
> ...


there are generally two sorts of businesses which i find objectionable. on the one hand, there are the large chains which reduce the variety of local businesses to almost a monoculture; on the other hand there are the businesses, frequently small, which cater to the gentrifier. the cereal cafe falls into the latter. it does nothing for long term residents but seems to fill a void for the undiscerning interloper.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Sep 29, 2015)

fredfelt said:


> I can't see how this stupid cafe will contribute to other shops closing.


Nor can I. Neither can I see how it will contribute to people being driven out of the area, except as part of a wider process whereby any kind of urban regeneration results in rent hikes. That's the process that needs attacking.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 29, 2015)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Nor can I. Neither can I see how it will contribute to people being driven out of the area, except as part of a wider process whereby any kind of urban regeneration results in rent hikes. That's the process that needs attacking.


there are none so blind as will not see: this cafe is objectionable _even if_ it causes no other business to close or to lose an ounce of custom. it is objectionable, in my eyes, because it caters to the gentrifier & because it offers nothing to the long-term (or even short-term) working class resident. it helps create and sustain a culture different to that which  the area previously had. it is no accident it was sited in brick lane, as its target market are very much the hipsters who live in the area and their counterparts who visit.


----------



## fredfelt (Sep 29, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> there are generally two sorts of businesses which i find objectionable. on the one hand, there are the large chains which reduce the variety of local businesses to almost a monoculture; on the other hand there are the businesses, frequently small, which cater to the gentrifier. the cereal cafe falls into the latter. it does nothing for long term residents but seems to fill a void for the undiscerning interloper.



Okay.  Understood.  I would hope that there's space on a diverse high street to cater for varied tastes and different communities.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 29, 2015)

fredfelt said:


> Okay.  Understood.  I would hope that there's space on a diverse high street to cater for varied tastes and different communities.


yes. but brick lane is decreasingly diverse, caters for a decreasing number of tastes and for a decreasing number of communities.


----------



## cesare (Sep 29, 2015)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I think there's some confusion here about what gentrification is.
> 
> My definition of gentrification would be the driving out of an existing demographic over time through increases in house prices and rents. Such social cleansing might happen in an unplanned way over a number of years, as has been happening in Hackney, or in a brutal, planned way far more quickly, as is happening in Elephant now.
> 
> What doesn't happen is for shops, restaurants and bars to open up that then drive poorer people away from an area. If they have affordable rents in social housing, people stay put during gentrification processes and there are generally plenty of places within their price range as well in the area even post-gent, although the disappearance of markets etc to be replaced by avaricious chains is a big problem. Cereal Killers and their ilk - little places replacing other little places - have driven nobody out.


I think that this more closely defines what gentrification is:




> History of the Term





> The term ‘gentrification’ was coined in 1964 by a British sociologist – Ruth Glass – when referring to the alterations she observed in the social structure and housing markets in certain areas of inner London.  Glass observed; "_One by one, many of the working class quarters have been invaded by the middle class - upper and lower ... Once this process of 'gentrification' starts in a district it goes on rapidly until all or most of the working class occupiers are displaced and the whole social social character of the district is changed_" (Glass, 1964, p.xvii).
> 
> Early definitions of gentrification, like that of Glass, tended to focus on the residential housing market and the rehabilitation of existing properties.  However, since then the definition has widened to include vacant land – usually in prior industrial use – and newly built designer neighbourhoods, as well as neighbourhoods of working-class housing.  Smith’s (2002: cited by Atkinson and Bridge, 2005) more recent work has argued that gentrification has broadened once again to become a new form of neo-liberal urban policy.  Where the original definition focused on ‘sweat equity’ gentrification, with the middle-class householder rehabilitating their dwelling; more recent discussions have included off-the-peg new-build developments, often beside water or in other notable locations in the city.
> 
> Initially confined to western cities, gentrification has spread globally.  Evidence of neighbourhood alteration and colonisation illustrated by an increasing concentration of the middle class can be found across the world; including cities such as Shanghai, Sydney and Seattle.  As well as this, the process can now also be observed in regional centres such as Leeds in England and Barcelona in Spain. (Atkinson and Bridge, 2005).



Which is just an excerpt from here: 2. History and Explanation of Gentrification - Gentrification

I've been living on or near the Eastern boundary of the City since 1998 and working here for much longer, and I definitely think that the entire east side of the City has shifted eastwards and been replaced by not only expensive housing (as per One Aldgate) but also more expensive eating (cf the entire redevelopment of Spitalfields).


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 29, 2015)

Sparkle Motion said:


> If even 20% of the protesters were genuinely local that would be a massively exciting development. Most people affected by gentrification quietly move on to a better life in the suburbs, and wouldn't go back even if they could.



Please quantify "most people".
or admit you've made a sweeping generalisation based on your own preconceptions, rather than on substantive data.


----------



## no-no (Sep 29, 2015)

Cereal shop sells overpriced cereal most folk can't afford, same as any other fucking shop then. They all stock shit I can't afford. Whoever attacked the cereal shop was indulging in a bit of spite imo. There are plenty of other viable targets, the cereal shop got some press but at the expense of looking like idiots.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 29, 2015)

_Symbols don't matter_, they say as they _applaud _the latest socially liberal top-down symbolic trick pulled by politicians.

Symbols do matter and attacks on symbols get to the heart of the matter. They directly attack what they mean to people and how they are viewed in a way that an attack on a wider structure (how, btw? all you, attack the real target types, tell us how) will not.  Things start at a point - they're not the finished product. This looks like a great start. The finished product might have enough legs to have a go at what the liberals on here  (note their absence on other things criticising that wider structure) are whining about.

Well done to all. More of it. More symbols. More attacks.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 29, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> so you're saying most people affectrd by gentrification move to the suburbs. so why are so many people affected by gentrufication moving to eg brick lane?



The circulation effect from centre to periphery held true as late as the '80s (in some cases) in London. It's dead in the water nowadays, though. Both centre and periphery are priced beyond what most earners can afford, in terms of rent. It's why BtL landlords will continue to coin it in via house-sharing.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Sep 29, 2015)

cesare said:


> I've been living on or near the Eastern boundary of the City since 1998 and working here for much longer, and I definitely think that the entire east side of the City has shifted eastwards and been replaced by not only expensive housing (as per One Aldgate) but also more expensive eating (cf the entire redevelopment of Spitalfields).


I don't know the area too well, but are there still also cheaper places to eat? I can think of one very good Chinese restaurant near there that's not that expensive.

I read a very poor article recently berating the Brunswick Centre because a couple of the restaurants there are on the pricey side. But the article neglected to mention, or was ignorant of the fact, that within a couple of minutes' walk there are two greasy spoons and at least two cheapish kebab places. (Not to mention that there's a Nando's in the BC itself.)


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 29, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> The circulation effect from centre to periphery held true as late as the '80s (in some cases) in London. It's dead in the water nowadays, though. Both centre and periphery are priced beyond what most earners can afford, in terms of rent. It's why BtL landlords will continue to coin it in via house-sharing.


no, i was taking the piss out of Sparkle Motion.


----------



## cesare (Sep 29, 2015)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I don't know the area too well, but are there still also cheaper places to eat? I can think of one very good Chinese restaurant near there that's not that expensive.
> 
> I read a very poor article recently berating the Brunswick Centre because a couple of the restaurants there are on the pricey side. But the article neglected to mention, or was ignorant of the fact, that within a couple of minutes' walk there are two greasy spoons and at least two cheapish kebab places. (Not to mention that there's a Nando's in the BC itself.)


I'm sure I can think of a few examples that are still clinging on, as well.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 29, 2015)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I don't know the area too well, but are there still also cheaper places to eat? I can think of one very good Chinese restaurant near there that's not that expensive.
> 
> I read a very poor article recently berating the Brunswick Centre because a couple of the restaurants there are on the pricey side. But the article neglected to mention, or was ignorant of the fact, that within a couple of minutes' walk there are two greasy spoons and at least two cheapish kebab places. (Not to mention that there's a Nando's in the BC itself.)


not to mention a pret a manger by russell square tube


----------



## cesare (Sep 29, 2015)

Seriously, the East End isn't being gentrified simply because there are still a few cheap places to eat left? Bloody hell.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 29, 2015)

cesare said:


> 3 Rice Krispies artfully arranged on the corner of a rectangular piece of reclaimed slate, with a dash of yoghurt smeared next to it, pointing towards the middle



At least, it *looks* a bit like yoghurt...


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 29, 2015)

Sonmeone on this thread who went to private school actually argued that people going on about class is what make classs happen. And it wasn't challenged. Fucking hell.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 29, 2015)

cesare said:


> Seriously, the East End isn't being gentrified simply because there are still a few cheap places to eat left? Bloody hell.


littlebabyjesus likes to paint himself a bit alternative and edgy but give a slight scratch and you find the happy gentrifier who doesn't even realise he's a gentrifier.


----------



## The Flying Pig (Sep 29, 2015)

cesare said:


> Do one with your pie and mash mate that signed up at the same time as you


Are you really as weird as your post suggests are you that obsessed with those fascists scumbags. Do u see fascists coming up through the flpprboards. While some  are attacking sugarpops


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Sep 29, 2015)

cesare said:


> Seriously, the East End isn't being gentrified simply because there are still a few cheap places to eat left? Bloody hell.


That's not what I said. The East End is being gentrified because rents are going through the roof. That's what forces people out.


----------



## cesare (Sep 29, 2015)

The Flying Pig said:


> Are you really as weird as your post suggests are you that obsessed with those fascists scumbags. Do u see fascists coming up through the flpprboards. While some  are attacking sugarpops


You're proper dodgy, get to fuck


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 29, 2015)

littlebabyjesus said:


> That's not what I said. The East End is being gentrified because rents are going through the roof.


no, you don't get it at all. that is not the reason the east end is being gentrified, that is a symptom of gentrification.


----------



## cesare (Sep 29, 2015)

littlebabyjesus said:


> That's not what I said. The East End is being gentrified because rents are going through the roof. That's what forces people out.


So are you saying that the East End *is * being gentrified then?


----------



## cesare (Sep 29, 2015)

butchersapron said:


> Sonmeone on this thread who went to private school actually argued that people going on about class is what make classs happen. And it wasn't challenged. Fucking hell.


Which one was that?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 29, 2015)

ffsear said:


> Plenty of gentrified pubs around that area.  Saturday night,  full of rugger buggers watching the England game.  Thought that would be their ideal target,!!
> 
> Would class war attack them?	Would they fuck!   Don't want people fighting back now do we!



What makes me laugh when people like you sound off, is that you've obviously got no clue about Class War's history of taking the fight to the class enemy, rugger buggers and all. If you had, you'd know that they *welcome* people fighting back.
Mug.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 29, 2015)

littlebabyjesus said:


> That's not what I said. The East End is being gentrified because rents are going through the roof. That's what forces people out.


i suppose that the council estates and housing association flats in the east end either knocked down to be replaced by yuppie flats (e.g. the ocean estate) or handed to developers for yuppie flats (the balfron tower) have nothing to do with it.


----------



## The Flying Pig (Sep 29, 2015)

cesare said:


> You're proper dodgy, get to fuck


cant help yourself. Anger management. May help


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Sep 29, 2015)

cesare said:


> So are you saying that the East End *is * being gentrified then?


I'm saying what I've been saying all along - that gentrification is the process by which one demographic is replaced by a richer one and the mechanism by which that is made to happen is rent hikes/social housing destruction/house price increases. And yes, of course, we're seeing it all over London.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 29, 2015)

cesare said:


> Which one was that?


Apols wrong thread - here.

edit: so many pig/cereal things to catch up on.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 29, 2015)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I'm saying what I've been saying all along - that gentrification is the process by which one demographic is replaced by a richer one and the mechanism by which that is made to happen is rent hikes/social housing destruction/house price increases. And yes, of course, we're seeing it all over London.


not to mention local government and regional government involvement to make london safe for gentrification.


----------



## cesare (Sep 29, 2015)

The Flying Pig said:


> cant help yourself. Anger management. May help


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 29, 2015)

The Flying Pig said:


> cant help yourself. Anger management. May help


i don't think anything can help you  you're too far gone.


----------



## no-no (Sep 29, 2015)

butchersapron said:


> _Symbols don't matter_, they say as they _applaud _the latest socially liberal top-down symbolic trick pulled by politicians.
> 
> Symbols do matter and attacks on symbols get to the heart of the matter. They directly attack what they mean to people and how they are viewed in a way that an attack on a wider structure (how, btw? all you, attack the real target types, tell us how) will not.  Things start at a point - they're not the finished product. This looks like a great start. The finished product might have enough legs to have a go at what the liberals on here  (note their absence on other things criticising that wider structure) are whining about.
> 
> Well done to all. More of it. More symbols. More attacks.



I'm not sure it doesn't turn people off the subject when a symbolic attack is made though.It makes it easy for people to write off valid points because all they see is what looks on the surface like a pointless piece of vandalism. Real targets would include council offices? estate agents maybe? Chain their doors shut so they can't get in on monday morning or simply smash the fuck out of them.

What other things are considered viable targets for symbolic reasons?


----------



## cesare (Sep 29, 2015)

butchersapron said:


> Apols wrong thread - here.
> 
> edit: so may pig/cereal things to catch up on.


bristling with pigs and swimming in cereals.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 29, 2015)

cesare said:


> bristling with pigs and swimming in cereals.


bristling with pigs swimming in cereals?  and they got 5 stars on the hygiene?


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 29, 2015)

no-no said:


> I'm not sure it doesn't turn people off the subject when a symbolic attack is made though.It makes it easy for people to write off valid points because all they see is what looks on the surface like a pointless piece of vandalism. Real targets would include council offices? estate agents maybe? Chain their doors shut so they can't get in on monday morning or simply smash the fuck out of them.
> 
> What other things are considered viable targets for symbolic reasons?


have you ever considered attacking tower hamlets town hall?


----------



## cesare (Sep 29, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> bristling with pigs swimming in cereals?  and they got 5 stars on the hygiene?


If they get a visit from the EHO they'll end up wearing ironic beard snoods


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 29, 2015)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Remember, we must start from first principles on every thread relating to gentrification, including, it seems, "what is capitalism?"



Because posters like Dowie always know best - that their incoherent ideas about class and capitalism are "common-sense" and take precedence over anything remotely analytical.


----------



## no-no (Sep 29, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> have you ever considered attacking tower hamlets town hall?



Is it well fortified?


----------



## cesare (Sep 29, 2015)

no-no said:


> Is it well fortified?


Different sort of fortification to added vitamins, certainly.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 29, 2015)

stethoscope said:


> And we're full circle to this again



And it smelt of dogshit the first time around.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 29, 2015)

no-no said:


> I'm not sure it doesn't turn people off the subject when a symbolic attack is made though.It makes it easy for people to write off valid points because all they see is what looks on the surface like a pointless piece of vandalism. Real targets would include council offices? estate agents maybe? Chain their doors shut so they can't get in on monday morning or simply smash the fuck out of them.
> 
> What other things are considered viable targets for symbolic reasons?


Turn who off? Turn them off from what? Points that would be valid otherwise? Where? With what weight?

You open the door to other actions - other actions (apart from the council one) but limit them to what you think about people rather than the people themselves. If an angry shouty thing catches fire then great. If not. Nothing lost. We're back at5 trying to find ways to stop all this shit.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 29, 2015)

All the people going on about the real enemies, the people who should be targeted   - tell me how. Tell me exactly how.


----------



## no-no (Sep 29, 2015)

I worry it turns off people who are on the fence over issues like gentrification. It becomes easy for them to disregard perfectly valid complaints like rocketing rents, social housing being sold and redeveloped. It feels like handing a PR piece to the rightwing press. I don't have an issue with attacking property to get attention, other targets? Foxtons? Town Hall? Any other chains in the area? There must be a tesco's nearby....How? treat them exactly as the cereal shop was treated? Would that be less effective? I say all this because I know I'm going to end up having an argument about this with certain relatives of mine and I also know they just won't be able to see past the cereal shop being smashed up.


----------



## cesare (Sep 29, 2015)

no-no said:


> I worry it turns off people who are on the fence over issues like gentrification. It becomes easy for them to disregard perfectly valid complaints like rocketing rents, social housing being sold and redeveloped. It feels like handing a PR piece to the rightwing press. I don't have an issue with attacking property to get attention, other targets? Foxtons? Town Hall? Any other chains in the area? There must be a tesco's nearby....How? treat them exactly as the cereal shop was treated? Would that be less effective? I say all this because I know I'm going to end up having an argument about this with certain relatives of mine and I also know they just won't be able to see past the cereal shop being smashed up.


The cereal shop wasn't smashed up. It didn't even have a window broken.


----------



## no-no (Sep 29, 2015)

That's not going to assuage the people I'm talking about. All they'll care about is that the shop was attacked and the owners are innocent in the matter.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 29, 2015)

no-no said:


> Is it well fortified?


it's in the back of beyond, on private land, and in the coldest part of the borough where the temperature rarely rises above 10C


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 29, 2015)

no-no said:


> That's not going to assuage the people I'm talking about. All they'll care about is that the shop was attacked and the owners are innocent in the matter.


but they're not innocent in the matter. their shop is deliberately sited to get trade from gentrifiers. their shop is deliberately provocative - see the c4 interview where they refuse to answer the question about the price of their cereal. it's the offbeat sort of shop so beloved of gentrifiers and their class. if this shop was in belsize park no one would bat an eyelid at it. but it's not, its target market is not the middle classes of hampstead but younger gentrifiers.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 29, 2015)

no-no said:


> That's not going to assuage the people I'm talking about. All they'll care about is that the shop was attacked and the owners are innocent in the matter.


Result


----------



## no-no (Sep 29, 2015)

Yeah I can see that, I'm not crying into my coco pops about their shop. I don't think many see it that way though, they're being portrayed as plucky young entrepeneurs just trying to make a living and building somethign nice in an otherwise shit area.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 29, 2015)

seventh bullet said:


> She's probably spent more on her recent jaunt to Russia than my 7 trips in the last decade combined and she's seen fuck all apart from the inside of luxury hotels and shops.



"Broke" usually means something different to the posh, than to us proles. For us it's "pasta and scrape for tea", for them it's "I'll have to dine in, tonight. Where did I put that tuna steak...?"


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 29, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> "Broke" usually means something different to the posh, than to us proles. For us it's "pasta and scrape for tea", for them it's "I'll have to dine in, tonight. Where did I put that tuna steak...?"


broke is where you have to walk to work and back and maybe have a bag of crisps or a roll (just a roll) for dinner.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 29, 2015)

Dan U said:


> Regardless of what you think of the protest it was a genius target from a media coverage point of view.
> 
> Still in the Guardian today and I saw some tweets linking to a Times article saying protest was headed by middle class professor (they were on about Lisa Mckenzie)



She's a lecturer, not a professor. Trust Rupert's dogs to get the facts wrong.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 29, 2015)

fredfelt said:


> Would you include a bagel shop in your definition?
> 
> They may not be quirky now, but I seem to remember a time when bagels were a novelty.



Pffft._Goy_.


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 29, 2015)

Why did Bone and co. target a small independent business, though? Will they be attacking other small independent, family run businesses in the area?


----------



## cesare (Sep 29, 2015)

ffs


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 29, 2015)

krtek a houby said:


> Why did Bone and co. target a small independent business, though? Will they be attacking other small independent, family run businesses in the area?


Yes


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 29, 2015)

Supine said:


> My problem with gentrification is that it assumes lots of 'poor people' are making some exodus somewhere worse and that richer people are moving in. It doesn't account for the fact that in a good economy like ours people in general get richer as time goes by. It's not necessarily new rich people who live in an area, it's just people getting on and earning a few more bob.



You appear to be mistaking a rise in total volume of wealth, with more people getting more money as time goes by. Balanced for price inflation, the income of the bottom 70% of society has stayed static - no "real terms" rise. The top 3 deciles get wealthier, the mid 4 have stayed static, and the bottom 3 deciles - well,we're getting poorer.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 29, 2015)

This word, 'independent', what does it mean?


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 29, 2015)

krtek a houby said:


> Why did Bone and co. target a small independent business, though? Will they be attacking other small independent, family run businesses in the area?


Why did you introduce family btw? Are you pro family?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 29, 2015)

butchersapron said:


> All the people going on about the real enemies, the people who should be targeted   - tell me how. Tell me exactly how.



They haven't got a clue, they just want people to stop doing the nasty thing that offends their delicate sensibilities.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 29, 2015)

krtek a houby said:


> Why did Bone and co. target a small independent business, though? Will they be attacking other small independent, family run businesses in the area?



They didn't "target" it, as in "planned to march on the cafe", it was a "target of opportunity" they encountered while marching, and served as a ready symbol of the gentrification of the area.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 29, 2015)

no-no said:


> I worry it turns off people who are on the fence over issues like gentrification. It becomes easy for them to disregard perfectly valid complaints like rocketing rents, social housing being sold and redeveloped. It feels like handing a PR piece to the rightwing press.


I'm sorry, but that's patently bollocks. Anyone swayed by such a fleeting and vainglorious event as the smoking-out of a cafe wasn't "on the fence" to start with.



> I don't have an issue with attacking property to get attention, other targets? Foxtons? Town Hall? Any other chains in the area? There must be a tesco's nearby....How? treat them exactly as the cereal shop was treated? Would that be less effective? I say all this because I know I'm going to end up having an argument about this with certain relatives of mine and I also know they just won't be able to see past the cereal shop being smashed up.



They smashed up an estate agency.

You'd have known that if you weren't talking bollocks!


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 29, 2015)

krtek a houby said:


> Why did Bone and co. target a small independent business, though? Will they be attacking other small independent, family run businesses in the area?


we've gone through this several times on this thread. how many more times do you need it explained to you?


----------



## stethoscope (Sep 29, 2015)

Most chains start off as independent and 'family-run' petit-bourgeois. Anyway, these two brothers have two fucking cafes now, and the one that was attacked has a manager running daily affairs too. And then they'll be the staff. 'Small-shopkeeper' concern bollocks.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 29, 2015)

krtek a houby said:


> Why did Bone and co. target a small independent business, though? Will they be attacking other small independent, family run businesses in the area?


will you make a sensible, well-informed post?


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 29, 2015)

cesare said:


> ffs


it's krtek proving he's dwyer's cousin


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 29, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> broke is where you have to walk to work and back and maybe have a bag of crisps or a roll (just a roll) for dinner.



A roll? You don't know you're born. I'm talking raw dry pasta and the scraping from the bottom of the fridge!


----------



## stethoscope (Sep 29, 2015)

And I see they were blessed with Boris' attendance yesterday too who popped in for a bowl and supportive words.


----------



## cesare (Sep 29, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> it's krtek proving he's dwyer's cousin


he's proving that he either hasn't read the thread or isn't capable of grasping what's already been said (over and over again)


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 29, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> A roll? You don't know you're born. I'm talking raw dry pasta and the scraping from the bottom of the fridge!


why didn't you cook the pasta in your own urine so stop it being so hard?


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 29, 2015)

cesare said:


> he's proving that he either hasn't read the thread or isn't capable of grasping what's already been said (over and over again)


once again, cesare, it's not either/or but and.


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 29, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> we've gone through this several times on this thread. how many more times do you need it explained to you?



Hey, it's a big thread and I'm not very clever, as you well know. I'm curious as to why they didn't target Starbucks or the bigger chains. Picking on a couple of bearded brothers doesn't make sense.


----------



## cesare (Sep 29, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> once again, cesare, it's not either/or but and.


fair play


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 29, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> They didn't "target" it, as in "planned to march on the cafe", it was a "target of opportunity" they encountered while marching, and served as a ready symbol of the gentrification of the area.



They picked on a couple of people who were different and didn't fit in.


----------



## ffsear (Sep 29, 2015)

krtek a houby said:


> Hey, it's a big thread and I'm not very clever, as you well know. I'm curious as to why they didn't target Starbucks or the bigger chains. Picking on a couple of bearded brothers doesn't make sense.




Higher risk of them getting a kicking.   Bunch of cunts


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 29, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> why didn't you cook the pasta in your own urine so stop it being so hard?



Enuresis.


----------



## cesare (Sep 29, 2015)

krtek a houby said:


> They picked on a couple of people who were different and didn't fit in.


They're not different, it's bloody swarming with people  like them


----------



## stethoscope (Sep 29, 2015)

krtek a houby said:


> They picked on a couple of people who were different and didn't fit in.



Bing! You score 2 points. It's almost like this must have been debunked before.


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 29, 2015)

ffsear said:


> Higher risk of them getting a kicking.



Interesting. Violence against bearded people. What does that remind me of?


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 29, 2015)

krtek a houby said:


> They picked on a couple of people who were different and didn't fit in.


i sense you're feeling some empathy here.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 29, 2015)

krtek a houby said:


> Interesting. Violence against bearded people. What does that remind me of?


----------



## cesare (Sep 29, 2015)

They killed Jesus too!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 29, 2015)

krtek a houby said:


> They picked on a couple of people who were different and didn't fit in.



No they didn't.
I know how you tend to refer everything back to your own experiences of "being different", but frankly you're looking up an elephant's arse here. A *place*, a *business establishment* was (rather gently) attacked, not the pathetically-bearded and pomaded fops who run the joint. It was targeted because, as a venue that does its business selling overpriced pap to the gullible, it represents a facet of life-stylism redolent of gentrification.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 29, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> No they didn't.
> I know how you tend to refer everything back to your own experiences of "being different", but frankly you're looking up an elephant's arse here. A *place*, a *business establishment* was (rather gently) attacked, not the pathetically-bearded and pomaded fops who run the joint. It was targeted because, as a venue that does its business selling overpriced pap to the gullible, it represents a facet of life-stylism redolent of gentrification.


a diarrhetick elephant's arse has more charm and comes out with better sense (and scents) then krtek.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 29, 2015)

krtek a houby said:


> Interesting. Violence against bearded people. What does that remind me of?



A masturbation fantasy you've had?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 29, 2015)

cesare said:


> They killed Jesus too!



Nope, that was some of us earlier inhabitants of the East End.


----------



## cesare (Sep 29, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> Nope, that was some of us earlier inhabitants of the East End.


Oh, was he saying it reminded him of blood libel. Bit near the mark eh.


----------



## no-no (Sep 29, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> I'm sorry, but that's patently bollocks. Anyone swayed by such a fleeting and vainglorious event as the smoking-out of a cafe wasn't "on the fence" to start with.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I know they smashed up some other places, and I take your point about some of the people I know not being quite on the fence. But it still feels like an own goal to me.Unless I'm missing something.

What's the point of the protest? to convince others round to your point of view? To simply create an obstruction to whatever it is you're protesting about? I'm sort of thinking that the point of media coverage is to get the issue discussed publicly and hopefully win over enough of the public that it becomes a large enough issue that politicians are willing to do something about it.

Atttacking the cereal place has def got a lot of media coverage but to what end? Do you reckon peope who are on the fence are being won over? I honestly don't know, looks like preaching to the converted.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 29, 2015)

cesare said:


> Oh, was he saying it reminded him of blood libel. Bit near the mark eh.






			
				krtek a houby said:
			
		

> have you ever seen ian bone and sir oswald mosley in the same room? i ask you - is that coincidence


----------



## fishfinger (Sep 29, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> Nope, that was some of us earlier inhabitants of the East End.


Coming over here and munching your beigels


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 29, 2015)

cesare said:


> Oh, was he saying it reminded him of blood libel. Bit near the mark eh.



TBF I haven't got a Scooby what he's saying! I still think it's a wank fantasy of his!


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 29, 2015)

no-no said:


> I know they smashed up some other places, and I take your point about some of the people I know not being quite on the fence. But it still feels like an own goal to me.Unless I'm missing something.
> 
> What's the point of the protest? to convince others round to your point of view? To simply create an obstruction to whatever it is you're protesting about? I'm sort of thinking that the point of media coverage is to get the issue discussed publicly and hopefully win over enough of the public that it becomes a large enough issue that politicians are willing to do something about it.
> 
> Atttacking the cereal place has def got a lot of media coverage but to what end? Do you reckon peope who are on the fence are being won over? I honestly don't know, looks like preaching to the converted.


people who are on the fence should have their legs pulled downwards. that'll learn the liberal wankers.


----------



## cesare (Sep 29, 2015)




----------



## cesare (Sep 29, 2015)

You know who else made the trains run on time? THAT'S RIGHT


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 29, 2015)

So, enlighten me, what sort of business should have been there and where should the brothers ply their trade; just so I can fit in with the general consensus.


----------



## stethoscope (Sep 29, 2015)

I'm not sure running a cafe exclusively selling bowls of cereal really constitutes 'ply a trade'.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 29, 2015)

krtek a houby said:


> So, enlighten me, what sort of business should have been there and where should the brothers ply their trade; just so I can fit in with the general consensus.


you can never fit in with the general consensus because the rest of us can think for ourselves while you rely on being told what to think, as in this example ^^


----------



## cesare (Sep 29, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> you can never fit in with the general consensus because the rest of us can think for ourselves while you rely on being told what to think, as in this example ^^


Or ask to be told what to think so he can think the reverse without thinking about it.


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 29, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> A masturbation fantasy you've had?



Oh


Pickman's model said:


> you can never fit in with the general consensus because the rest of us can think for ourselves while you rely on being told what to think, as in this example ^^



I think that it was wrong to target these guys and I think that Bone and his pals are publicity seeking trolls.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 29, 2015)

krtek a houby said:


> I think that it was wrong to target these guys and I think that Bone and his pals are publicity seeking trolls.


do you really - how wonderful for you


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 29, 2015)

no-no said:


> I know they smashed up some other places, and I take your point about some of the people I know not being quite on the fence. But it still feels like an own goal to me.Unless I'm missing something.
> 
> What's the point of the protest? to convince others round to your point of view? To simply create an obstruction to whatever it is you're protesting about? I'm sort of thinking that the point of media coverage. is to get the issue discussed publicly and hopefully win over enough of the public that it becomes a large enough issue that politicians are willing to do something about it.
> 
> Atttacking the cereal place has def got a lot of media coverage but to what end? Do you reckon peope who are on the fence are being won over? I honestly don't know, looks like preaching to the converted.



Oh dear.
It's not about any of that. It's about creating a spectacle that gets publicised. The spectacle draws in those interested in the politics, and while you're "woe is me"-ing about motivations, Class War are getting on with the grassroots stuff they do, and planning the next spectacle.


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 29, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> do you really - how wonderful for you



It is, rather. 

Isn't it interesting when a bunch of middle class white guys can terrorise shop owners and customers and get applauded for it?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 29, 2015)

fishfinger said:


> Coming over here and munching your beigels



Was that lox or salt beef you wanted?


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 29, 2015)

krtek a houby said:


> It is, rather.
> 
> Isn't it interesting when a bunch of middle class white guys can terrorise shop owners and customers and get applauded for it?


isn't it wonderful how you can, without ever visiting whitechapel, determine the class of people without even questioning them. it's also wonderful how you can determine their sex without ever seeing them.


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 29, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> Oh dear.
> It's not about any of that. It's about creating a spectacle that gets publicised. The spectacle draws in those interested in the politics, and while you're "woe is me"-ing about motivations, Class War are getting on with the grassroots stuff they do, and planning the next spectacle.



They won't draw in many, I'll warrant. 

I wonder how many people out ther would now like to chuck paint at Bone's place of work?


----------



## stethoscope (Sep 29, 2015)

krtek a houby said:


> Isn't it interesting when a *bunch of middle class white guys* can terrorise shop owners and customers and get applauded for it?



Bing! You score 1 point. I'm sure that's been debunked too.


----------



## fishfinger (Sep 29, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> Was that lox or salt beef you wanted?


I like 'em all


----------



## BlackArab (Sep 29, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> If we're playing by the rules of neo-liberals though, and Im not suggesting it always results in something bad for people, they're not necessarily exercising choice either, are they?



Some are, some aren't. My Mother and many others did exercise choice and were more than happy to do. Two sides to every coin.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 29, 2015)

krtek a houby said:


> It is, rather.
> 
> Isn't it interesting when a bunch of middle class white guys can terrorise shop owners and customers and get applauded for it?



There were women there, and you don't have the first clue as to their class, so perhaps you should stop laying it on with a trowel, and try a bit of fact-finding?


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 29, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> isn't it wonderful how you can, without ever visiting whitechapel, determine the class of people without even questioning them. it's also wonderful how you can determine their sex without ever seeing them.



Isn't it wonderful that you can make assumptions about whether or not I've been to Whitechapel or know anyone from the area.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 29, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> There were women there, and you don't have the first clue as to their class, so perhaps you should stop laying it on with a trowel, and try a bit of fact-finding?


he doesn't like that.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 29, 2015)

krtek a houby said:


> Interesting. Violence against bearded people. What does that remind me of?


It doesn't remind  anyone of nazis.


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 29, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> There were women there, and you don't have the first clue as to their class, so perhaps you should stop laying it on with a trowel, and try a bit of fact-finding?



Perhaps the publicity seeking Bone and his acolytes should have targetted a bigger place? The cowardly little trolls.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 29, 2015)

krtek a houby said:


> Isn't it wonderful that you can make assumptions about whether or not I've been to Whitechapel or know anyone from the area.


it doesn't matter if you have been to whitechapel in the dim and distant past or indeed at any point. you weren't there on the night so you don't have the faintest idea what you're talking about.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 29, 2015)

krtek a houby said:


> Perhaps the publicity seeking Bone and his acolytes should have targetted a bigger place? The cowardly little trolls.


so size matters to you. interesting.


----------



## no-no (Sep 29, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> Oh dear.
> It's not about any of that. It's about creating a spectacle that gets publicised. The spectacle draws in those interested in the politics, and while you're "woe is me"-ing about motivations, Class War are getting on with the grassroots stuff they do, and planning the next spectacle.



So, in this case what has the spectacle accomplished? It's drawn in people interested in politics, that's good. But what's happening about the council selling off social housing to developers or the rising rent in the area? How do you affect that sort of thing without taking into account public opinion, local MPs and votes....

I'm not being snarky, I actually want to know.....


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 29, 2015)

no-no said:


> So, in this case what has the spectacle accomplished? It's drawn in people interested in politics, that's good. But what's happening about the council selling off social housing to developers or the rising rent in the area? How do you affect that sort of thing without taking into account public opinion, local MPs and votes....
> 
> I'm not being snarky, I actually want to know.....


seems to me you missed the nine months of demonstrations about the poor doors at 1 commercial street last year


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 29, 2015)

krtek a houby said:


> It is, rather.
> 
> Isn't it interesting when a bunch of middle class white guys can terrorise shop owners and customers and get applauded for it?


Is the whole thread full of this stuff? Please tell me it is.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 29, 2015)

krtek a houby said:


> They won't draw in many, I'll warrant.



In the last 40 years they've given no indication of wanting to be a mass movement, so your point kind of *misses* the point.



> I wonder how many people out ther would now like to chuck paint at Bone's place of work?



And, talking of _non-sequiturs_...


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 29, 2015)

krtek a houby said:


> It is, rather.
> 
> Isn't it interesting when a bunch of middle class white guys can terrorise shop owners and customers and get applauded for it?


What especial rights do you believe owning a  shop gives you?


----------



## cesare (Sep 29, 2015)

butchersapron said:


> Is the whole thread full of this stuff? Please tell me it is.


It is. Krtek's only just joined it though.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 29, 2015)

cesare said:


> It is. Krtek's only just joined it though.


yeh he wanted to dump all over it so everyone would know he's still alive.


----------



## cesare (Sep 29, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh he wanted to dump all over it so everyone would know he's still alive.


He's upping the handwringing because he thinks that extra handwringing will result in Class War repenting


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 29, 2015)

cesare said:


> He's upping the handwringing because he thinks that extra handwringing will result in Class War repenting


it's that auld catholick guilt he's trying to assuage.


----------



## cesare (Sep 29, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> it's that auld catholick guilt he's trying to assuage.


He should be feeling guilty for introducing the blood libel trope


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 29, 2015)

krtek a houby said:


> It is, rather.
> 
> Isn't it interesting when a bunch of middle class white guys can terrorise shop owners and customers and get applauded for it?


How did you divine the class background of the people that you talk about? Is there not more rejoicing  over one sinner that repenteth than well, what are you lot? The lot who symbolically decry symbols.


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 29, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> it doesn't matter if you have been to whitechapel in the dim and distant past or indeed at any point. you weren't there on the night so you don't have the faintest idea what you're talking about.



Were you there on the night?


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 29, 2015)

cesare said:


> He should be feeling guilty for introducing the blood libel trope


he should do what that other judas did.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 29, 2015)

krtek a houby said:


> They won't draw in many, I'll warrant.
> 
> I wonder how many people out ther would now like to chuck paint at Bone's place of work?


Attack oaps demands hate crazed immigrant.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 29, 2015)

krtek a houby said:


> Were you there on the night?


so what if i was?


----------



## cesare (Sep 29, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> he should do what that other judas did.


The gospel according to krtek, buried in the desert for a thousand years.


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 29, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> it's that auld catholick guilt he's trying to assuage.



Speak for yourself.


----------



## cesare (Sep 29, 2015)

butchersapron said:


> Attack oaps demands hate crazed immigrant.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 29, 2015)

cesare said:


> The gospel according to krtek, buried in the desert for a thousand years.


i was thinking of something that didn't require him to be dug up in 3015.


----------



## no-no (Sep 29, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> seems to me you missed the nine months of demonstrations about the poor doors at 1 commercial street last year




I did, yes, how did that go down then?


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 29, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> so what if i was?



Well, perhaps you could tell me what you achieved?


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 29, 2015)

krtek a houby said:


> Speak for yourself.


i am not and never have been a catholick so very difficult to have that auld catholick guilt.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 29, 2015)

no-no said:


> So, in this case what has the spectacle accomplished? It's drawn in people interested in politics, that's good. But what's happening about the council selling off social housing to developers or the rising rent in the area? How do you affect that sort of thing without taking into account public opinion, local MPs and votes....
> 
> I'm not being snarky, I actually want to know.....



What makes you believe that Class War aren't involved in engaging with those issues, or with locals? I was never a "member" of CW, but I went on the same actions and got involved in the same grassroots causes, and they have a stand-out record of getting stuff done on the ground. You're assuming they're day-trippers, when the truth is that they're either locals, or people living in areas undergoing similar "regeneration". 
You wonder why people the UK over recognise the terms "hipster" and "gentrification"? Because they're shorthand for processes that are affecting everywhere, from Brick Lane to small villages throughout the UK.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 29, 2015)

no-no said:


> So, in this case what has the spectacle accomplished? It's drawn in people interested in politics, that's good. But what's happening about the council selling off social housing to developers or the rising rent in the area? How do you affect that sort of thing without taking into account public opinion, local MPs and votes....
> 
> I'm not being snarky, I actually want to know.....


How could it be anything other than a start point? Demanding that it produces final victory here and now? Who's talking  fantasy stuff here?


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 29, 2015)

krtek a houby said:


> Well, perhaps you could tell me what you achieved?


i very much enjoyed myself, which is always a good thing.


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 29, 2015)

cesare said:


> The gospel according to krtek, buried in the desert for a thousand years.



Ad hominem attacks. That's helpful.


----------



## cesare (Sep 29, 2015)

krtek a houby said:


> Well, perhaps you could tell me what you achieved?


You doing full seethe is quite an achievement. Especially if accompanied by a disapproving look and maybe a tut. Or even a letter to Fitz.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 29, 2015)

no-no said:


> I did, yes, how did that go down then?


very well, i thought. although not with the police or all the residents of 1 commercial street.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 29, 2015)

butchersapron said:


> Is the whole thread full of this stuff? Please tell me it is.



It is, *and* worse.


----------



## cesare (Sep 29, 2015)

krtek a houby said:


> Ad hominem attacks. That's helpful.


Thank you. You're welcome


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 29, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> i am not and never have been a catholick so very difficult to have that auld catholick guilt.



How odd of you to bring in religion, then.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 29, 2015)

krtek a houby said:


> Were you there on the night?



Because, of course, you should always out yourself on a bulletin board!


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 29, 2015)

krtek a houby said:


> How odd of you to bring in religion, then.


by no means. you brought it in before: as well you know.


----------



## no-no (Sep 29, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> What makes you believe that Class War aren't involved in engaging with those issues, or with locals? I was never a "member" of CW, but I went on the same actions and got involved in the same grassroots causes, and they have a stand-out record of getting stuff done on the ground. You're assuming they're day-trippers, when the truth is that they're either locals, or people living in areas undergoing similar "regeneration".
> You wonder why people the UK over recognise the terms "hipster" and "gentrification"? Because they're shorthand for processes that are affecting everywhere, from Brick Lane to small villages throughout the UK.



You're assuming all that stuff mate, I'm not having a go here....it's just that you said it had nothign to do with public opinion, votes ,politicians etc....I've heard this said before but never understood how you can affect change without those things being involved.....short of toppling those in power through force.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 29, 2015)

butchersapron said:


> Attack oaps demands hate crazed immigrant.



"Attack *sick* OAPs...", don't you mean?


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 29, 2015)

krtek a houby said:


> Ad hominem attacks. That's helpful.


i'm not sure they are 'ad hominem' if they're directed at a snake in the grass.


----------



## Belushi (Sep 29, 2015)

krtek a houby said:


> How odd of you to bring in religion, then.



I'll bite. You're obviously hinting at something in your posts on this thread, why don't you just spit it out?


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 29, 2015)

cesare said:


> You doing full seethe is quite an achievement. Especially if accompanied by a disapproving look and maybe a tut. Or even a letter to Fitz.



Full seethe? Fitz?


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 29, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> "Attack *sick* OAPs...", don't you mean?


The more you hear about this krtek  lad the worse he sounds.


----------



## cesare (Sep 29, 2015)

krtek a houby said:


> Full seethe? Fitz?


Yes.


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 29, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> by no means. you brought it in before: as well you know.



Did I really?


----------



## cesare (Sep 29, 2015)

krtek a houby said:


> Did I really?


Yes.


----------



## no-no (Sep 29, 2015)

butchersapron said:


> How could it be anything other than a start point? Demanding that it produces final victory here and now? Who's talking  fantasy stuff here.?





butchersapron said:


> How could it be anything other than a start point? Demanding that it produces final victory here and now? Who's talking  fantasy stuff here?



I'm not demanding a final victory at all, just dubious about the effects of attacking targets like this.


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 29, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> i'm not sure they are 'ad hominem' if they're directed at a snake in the grass.



I don't follow.

I'm not part of your willy waving club. I dissent against the opinion that attacking small business is a good thing.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 29, 2015)

no-no said:


> You're assuming all that stuff mate, I'm not having a go here....it's just that you said it had nothign to do with public opinion, votes ,politicians etc....I've heard this said before but never understood how you can affect change without those things being involved.....short of toppling those in power through force.



I'm not assuming any of it. Anarchists (Class War or otherwise, unless they're Trustafarian lifestyler wank-rags) tend to live and work in the communities they protest in. We also tend to be quite active in grassroots community projects.
How do we change stuff? We take whatever route works best at the time, but generally we affect change bit by bit from the ground-up. You, you're thinking in terms of party politics and power.I think in terms of highlighting power's contradictions so that those who exercise it are revealed as the venal pig-fuckers they are.


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 29, 2015)

cesare said:


> Yes.



Still doesn't make sense.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 29, 2015)

krtek a houby said:


> Did I really?


yes. yes, you did.


----------



## cesare (Sep 29, 2015)

krtek a houby said:


> I don't follow.
> 
> I'm not part of your willy waving club. I dissent against the opinion that attacking small business is a good thing.


How about if it was a small business selling lampshades made of human skin?


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 29, 2015)

krtek a houby said:


> Still doesn't make sense.


your contributions rarely do.


----------



## The Flying Pig (Sep 29, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> but they're not innocent in the matter. their shop is deliberately sited to get trade from gentrifiers. their shop is deliberately provocative - see the c4 interview where they refuse to answer the question about the price of their cereal. it's the offbeat sort of shop so beloved of gentrifiers and their class. if this shop was in belsize park no one would bat an eyelid at it. but it's not, its target market is not the middle classes of hampstead but younger gentrifiers.


Well spotted good undercover work Jeeves!


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 29, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> yes. yes, you did.



I made a comparison to attacks on people with beards, people who don't fit in, people who are seen as different.

You started banging on about catholic guilt.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 29, 2015)

krtek a houby said:


> I don't follow.
> 
> I'm not part of your willy waving club. I dissent against the opinion that attacking small business is a good thing.


every day when i wake up i thank the lord you're not part of my willy waving club.


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 29, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> your contributions rarely do.


 
It must be like looking in the mirror for you. I guess that's why you excell at your job here on urban.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 29, 2015)

krtek a houby said:


> I made a comparison to attacks on people with beards, people who don't fit in, people who are seen as different.
> 
> You started banging on about catholic guilt.


you were referring to blood libel.


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 29, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> every day when i wake up i thank the lord you're not part of my willy waving club.



Oh, you're awake are you? I couldn't tell.


----------



## The Flying Pig (Sep 29, 2015)

butchersapron said:


> All the people going on about the real enemies, the people who should be targeted   - tell me how. Tell me exactly how.


If you really don't know how you have not even reached base camp on the very long road of struggle against the current system


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 29, 2015)

krtek a houby said:


> I don't follow.
> 
> I'm not part of your willy waving club. I dissent against the opinion that attacking small business is a good thing.


Has anyone put that context free case? Please point to it,.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 29, 2015)

krtek a houby said:


> Oh, you're awake are you? I couldn't tell.


i would say 'don't make yourself look stupid' but we both know it would be too little, too late.


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 29, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> you were referring to blood libel.



I don't know what blood libel is. I was thinking of Muslims being attacked; if that's what blood libel is.


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 29, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> i would say 'don't make yourself look stupid' but we both know it would be too little, too late.



Yes indeed. You need to pay attention; I'm pretty open about my stupidity.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 29, 2015)

krtek a houby said:


> I don't know what blood libel is. I was thinking of Muslims being attacked; if that's what blood libel is.


see? you were bringing religion into it.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 29, 2015)

The Flying Pig said:


> If you really don't know how you have not even reached base camp on the very long road of struggle against the current system


Strike one


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 29, 2015)

krtek a houby said:


> Yes indeed. You need to pay attention; I'm pretty open about my stupidity.


yeh but it's reached such epic proportions you should be alarmed.


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 29, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> see? you were bringing religion into it.



No, I was thinking about it as I posted. A comparison, if you will. You did the catholic guilt stuff. Very peculiar.


----------



## The Flying Pig (Sep 29, 2015)

cesare said:


>


So is it bovered next? you just know you are lost when you resort to swearing. Weve tried,cop, we've tried P&M, we've tried get em banned, all have failed miserably so let us resort to immature and childish name calling. It is kinda funny but truly just pathetic.


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 29, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh but it's reached such epic proportions you should be alarmed.



I'm alarmed you and the other fella pay so much attention to it. I've just asked a few questions, that's it and then you and the usual suspects had a go.


----------



## stethoscope (Sep 29, 2015)

Who's this Flying Pig poster then?


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 29, 2015)

stethoscope said:


> Who's this Flying Pig poster then?



He or she seems quite dignified with their responses.


----------



## JimW (Sep 29, 2015)

stethoscope said:


> Who's this Flying Pig poster then?


All we've been able to work out so far is definitely not a ninja. In fact I reckon he may not even be Japanese.


----------



## The Flying Pig (Sep 29, 2015)

Unfortunately once again the gimp gang have done nothing further for any sort of cause. Thrown some abuse,paint and attack the door of a sole trader, wow you boys and girls know a soft target when you see one. Yes children in the pace as well, yet again as you are all so young and you would have no comprehension of how others perceive that action.
I don't agree with Johnny Rotten on much but his view of present day pseudo anarchists is not far off the mark.


----------



## stethoscope (Sep 29, 2015)

JimW said:


> All we've been able to work out so far is definitely not a ninja. In fact I reckon he may not even be Japanese.



Oh aye, says ninja all the time


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 29, 2015)

The Flying Pig said:


> Unfortunately once again the gimp gang have done nothing further for any sort of cause. Thrown some abuse,paint and attack the door of a sole trader, wow you boys and girls know a soft target when you see one. Yes children in the pace as well, yet again as you are all so young and you would have no comprehension of how others perceive that action.
> I don't agree with Johnny Rotten on much but his view of present day pseudo anarchists is not far off the mark.


Is that you benedict?


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 29, 2015)

There _ can be only one_ working class person on here.


----------



## cesare (Sep 29, 2015)

stethoscope said:


> Oh aye, says ninja all the time


EDL watch


----------



## stethoscope (Sep 29, 2015)

cesare said:


> EDL watch



OH AYE


----------



## no-no (Sep 29, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> I'm not assuming any of it. Anarchists (Class War or otherwise, unless they're Trustafarian lifestyler wank-rags) tend to live and work in the communities they protest in. We also tend to be quite active in grassroots community projects.
> How do we change stuff? We take whatever route works best at the time, but generally we affect change bit by bit from the ground-up. You, you're thinking in terms of party politics and power.I think in terms of highlighting power's contradictions so that those who exercise it are revealed as the venal pig-fuckers they are.



I meant, you were assuming I was assuming that.....doesn't matter....I wasn't assuming that the protesters weren't involved elsewhere using other methods.

What I'm saying is that surely you can't discount party politics, not at a local level anyway. I mean you're revealing the venal nature of our pig fucking masters but who are you revealing to? 

Fence sitting voters surely? There won't be a rent cap unless the politicians decide to implement one, the social housing will continue to be sold off until the politicians decide otherwise too.
I may well be putting too much faith in what MPs think of their constituents.


----------



## The Flying Pig (Sep 29, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> You appear to be mistaking a rise in total volume of wealth, with more people getting more money as time goes by. Balanced for price inflation, the income of the bottom 70% of society has stayed static - no "real terms" rise. The top 3 deciles get wealthier, the mid 4 have stayed static, and the bottom 3 deciles - well,we're getting poorer.





krtek a houby said:


> They picked on a couple of people who were different and didn't fit in.


Different? did'nt fit in? Try walking the Shoreditch area. It is fully of the trendy beardies. The only difference is the brothers were quicker off the mark in settinf up a cereal cafe. Other beardies are most probably intensely jealous they did not think of this entrepreneurial move first. Maybe the brothers will give others a chance by offering franchises. Then all the beardies and their ilk can live happily every after and leave the rest of us to carry on the struggle.


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 29, 2015)

The Flying Pig said:


> Different? did'nt fit in? Try walking the Shoreditch area. It is fully of the trendy beardies. The only difference is the brothers were quicker off the mark in settinf up a cereal cafe. Other beardies are most probably intensely jealous they did not think of this entrepreneurial move first. Maybe the brothers will give others a chance by offering franchises. Then all the beardies and their ilk can live happily every after and leave the rest of us to carry on the struggle.



I've only just grown my beard back. Should I shave it off in solidarity?

I was contemplating starting up a small business abroad; family run. I'm terrified that I might upset someone, though...


----------



## The Flying Pig (Sep 29, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> I'm sorry, but that's patently bollocks. Anyone swayed by such a fleeting and vainglorious event as the smoking-out of a cafe wasn't "on the fence" to start with.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Good luck with that one, only about another 10,000 to go!


Pickman's model said:


> people who are on the fence should have their legs pulled downwards. that'll learn the liberal wankers.


Only their legs pulled down?


----------



## The Flying Pig (Sep 29, 2015)

krtek a houby said:


> Were you there on the night?


Who would want to be there?


----------



## The Flying Pig (Sep 29, 2015)

krtek a houby said:


> I don't follow.
> 
> I'm not part of your willy waving club. I dissent against the opinion that attacking small business is a good thing.


Krtek if you carry on with this twaddle some of the others on this thread may want to let me loose on you. Wind your neck back in and at least think before you hit the keyboard.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 29, 2015)

The Flying Pig said:


> Who would want to be there?


you would want to be there, so you could say all the things you so desperately want to.


----------



## xenon (Sep 29, 2015)

The Flying Pig said:


> And as per usual with these sort of actions therein lies the problem.   "But no point crying over spilt milk." I for one have heard this quote far too many times by those whose actions have just been too stupid. It is the quote a teenager makes to absolve from any form of responsiblity for their actions.


Total nonsequetor. Attacking the SKC was dadft but the protest valid.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 29, 2015)

y


The Flying Pig said:


> Krtek if you carry on with this twaddle some of the others on this thread may want to let me loose on you. Wind your neck back in and at least think before you hit the keyboard.


yeh  we're all thinking 'bring out the gimp' but cesare's going 'but the gimp's asleep' & ViolentPanda's going 'looks like you'll just have to wake him up then'. you are that gimp.


----------



## The Flying Pig (Sep 29, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> you would want to be there, so you could say all the things you so desperately want to.


Good point!


----------



## The Flying Pig (Sep 29, 2015)

The Flying Pig said:


> Good point!


Far too much swearing for me


no-no said:


> I meant, you were assuming I was assuming that.....doesn't matter....I wasn't assuming that the protesters weren't involved elsewhere using other methods.
> 
> What I'm saying is that surely you can't discount party politics, not at a local level anyway. I mean you're revealing the venal nature of our pig fucking masters but who are you revealing to?
> 
> ...


assume ...intersting word it makes an ASS of U and ME


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 29, 2015)

The Flying Pig said:


> Krtek if you carry on with this twaddle some of the others on this thread may want to let me loose on you. Wind your neck back in and at least think before you hit the keyboard.



Must... adhere... to... approved... thought... patterns


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 29, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> y
> 
> yeh  we're all thinking 'bring out the gimp' but cesare's going 'but the gimp's asleep' & ViolentPanda's going 'looks like you'll just have to wake him up then'. you are that gimp.



"we're all thinking" are we?

The usual half dozen urbanites who have nothing better to do, you mean.


----------



## The Flying Pig (Sep 29, 2015)

cesare said:


> EDL watch


The Flying Pig coming to a Town near you!!


----------



## The Flying Pig (Sep 29, 2015)

krtek a houby said:


> "we're all thinking" are we?
> 
> The usual half dozen urbanites who have nothing better to do, you mean.


Krtek : I have already informed you that you are not thinking at all!


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 29, 2015)

krtek a houby said:


> "we're all thinking" are we?
> 
> The usual half dozen urbanites who have nothing better to do, you mean.


even flying pig, who is on your side, advised you to engage brain. why don't you try it?


----------



## cesare (Sep 29, 2015)

The Flying Pig said:


> The Flying Pig coming to a Town near you!!


Yeah yeah. Pie and Mash etc etc


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 29, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> even flying pig, who is on your side, advised you to engage brain. why don't you try it?



I don't support the actions of Bone and his crew. I think they picked on a soft target.

I believe they have achieved nothing.

If that makes me stupid, then I'm happy to be dense.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 29, 2015)

krtek a houby said:


> I don't support the actions of Bone and his crew. I think they picked on a soft target.
> 
> I believe they have achieved nothing.
> 
> If that makes me stupid, then I'm happy to be dense.


no, you were already stupid.


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 29, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> no, you were already stupid.



Yes, I know that! I'm thick as shite. I wish I was as brave and clever as you are. Is it the public school upbringing that contributed to your all over wonderfulness?


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 29, 2015)

krtek a houby said:


> Yes, I know that! I'm thick as shite. I wish I was as brave and clever as you are. Is it the public school upbringing that contributed to your all over wonderfulness?


tbh you could have gone to eton or wherever, wouldn't have made any difference - not even the best state school could.


----------



## cesare (Sep 29, 2015)

> The organiser of an anti-gentrification protest in east London has accused the owners of a breakfast cereal cafe targeted by protesters of “milking” the publicity.
> 
> Ian Bone, the founder of Class War, the anarchist group behind Saturday evening’s Fuck Parade event in Shoreditch, also vowed to continue focusing on independent businesses at similar protests planned nationwide.
> 
> ...





Class War accuses Cereal Killer Cafe owners of ‘milking publicity'


----------



## The Flying Pig (Sep 29, 2015)

Ah well I will leave you all to it, you don't need me tonight you have another far more willing and able fool than me to torment.
But of course before I go, I wonder how many of the cocoa pop gang made it all the long way to Colchester on Saturday?
There could have been very easy pickings there as well I am told. But then again there would still have been some kind of response which would have scared off the gimps, wizards, witches and clowns that have tried to steal the strong working class tradition of anti fascism and turn it into some kind of.....


----------



## The Flying Pig (Sep 29, 2015)

cesare said:


> Class War accuses Cereal Killer Cafe owners of ‘milking publicity'


Yep that is what entrepreneurs do. Any publicity is good publicity. I fail to understand how class war can be so gullible to not comprehend the result of their actions. Where have I heard that before?


----------



## cesare (Sep 29, 2015)

The Flying Pig said:


> Yep that is what entrepreneurs do. Any publicity is good publicity. I fail to understand how class war can be so gullible to not comprehend the result of their actions. Where have I heard that before?


You've not read the article, then


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 29, 2015)

Belushi said:


> The 1850's?


----------



## The Flying Pig (Sep 29, 2015)

cesare said:


> You've not read the article, then





cesare said:


> You've not read the article, then


Business will boom for the Cereal boys after Saturday. Small co's will be praying for a visit from the gimps. Bone is so far removed from reality, I find it hard to believe.


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 29, 2015)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I think there's some confusion here about what gentrification is.
> 
> My definition of gentrification would be the driving out of an existing demographic over time through increases in house prices and rents. Such social cleansing might happen in an unplanned way over a number of years, as has been happening in Hackney, or in a brutal, planned way far more quickly, as is happening in Elephant now.
> 
> What doesn't happen is for shops, restaurants and bars to open up that then drive poorer people away from an area. If they have affordable rents in social housing, people stay put during gentrification processes and there are generally plenty of places within their price range as well in the area even post-gent, although the disappearance of markets etc to be replaced by avaricious chains is a big problem. Cereal Killers and their ilk - little places replacing other little places - have driven nobody out.



Cereal Killers is an example of businesses opening that reflect the desires of the new social class moving into the area pushing the WC out. It may be a symptom rather than cause, but those doing it have nailed their colours to the mast of the process.


----------



## ClassWar2015 (Sep 29, 2015)

treelover said:


> One blogger, is swearing blind the protesters kicked and hurt a small dog, this is hard to believe, but she claims she saw it, baffled by that sort of behaviour
> 
> then again, RTS used to attract some dubious characters.



There was no dog ripped limb from limb. No we didn't feast on it's still warm flesh. The only dog I saw all night was our mates who was having a grand old time.


----------



## cesare (Sep 29, 2015)

The Flying Pig said:


> Business will boom for the Cereal boys after Saturday. Small co's will be praying for a visit from the gimps. Bone is so far removed from reality, I find it hard to believe.


Everyone's a winner then, Bone targets more independents whose footfall goes up as a result


----------



## ClassWar2015 (Sep 29, 2015)

The Flying Pig said:


> Business will boom for the Cereal boys after Saturday. Small co's will be praying for a visit from the gimps. Bone is so far removed from reality, I find it hard to believe.



You're a troll.


----------



## The Flying Pig (Sep 29, 2015)

ClassWar2015 said:


> You're a troll.


Not at all. I am contacting Citizen Smith and will be seeing him soon in person.
Just because I look at things with a logical and not emotional brain does not make me a troll. 
Anyway thanks for that I can add it to the long list of names I have been called on these forums.


----------



## The Flying Pig (Sep 29, 2015)

ClassWar2015 said:


> You're a troll.


If you are really unable to see the outcome of the suggested actions then there really is no hope.


----------



## grit (Sep 29, 2015)

ClassWar2015 said:


> You're a troll.



Perhaps he is, but it can't be denied you did inadvertently give these guys some great advertising.


----------



## goldenecitrone (Sep 29, 2015)

grit said:


> Perhaps he is, but it can't be denied you did inadvertently give these guys some great advertising.



They'll probably make enough money off the back of this to open up a third cereal café down in Pop Brixton.


----------



## grit (Sep 29, 2015)

goldenecitrone said:


> They'll probably make enough money off the back of this to open up a third cereal café down in Pop Brixton.



Yeah pretty much. It must be doing ok business as it is, saw in one of the articles they have 12 staff, which seems like a huge amount for what looks like a small place that mixes cereal with milk.


----------



## cesare (Sep 29, 2015)

grit said:


> Perhaps he is, but it can't be denied you did inadvertently give these guys some great advertising.


Great advertising all round


----------



## grit (Sep 29, 2015)

cesare said:


> Great advertising all round



Certainly got a conversation going


----------



## cesare (Sep 29, 2015)

grit said:


> Certainly got a conversation going


It's certainly solved the issue of how to make some waves


----------



## Dowie (Sep 29, 2015)

cesare said:


> It's certainly solved the issue of how to make some waves



yup... sort of like fathers4justice, a group of idiots that makes headlines but in the end no one really gives a shit about


----------



## cesare (Sep 29, 2015)

Dowie said:


> yup... sort of like fathers4justice, a group of idiots that makes headlines but in the end no one really gives a shit about


And I thought you loved the gentrifiers


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Sep 29, 2015)

cesare said:


> Everyone's a winner then, Bone targets more independents whose footfall goes up as a result


I mean it's obvious isn't it. I hear Cameron will announce a new fund for window-smashing east London PR entrepreneurs in his next speech to the CBI.


----------



## cesare (Sep 29, 2015)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I mean it's obvious isn't it. I hear Cameron will announce a new fund for window-smashing east London PR entrepreneurs in his next speech to the CBI.


I'm surprised he hasn't done it already to distract attention from his pig fucking great PR story.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Sep 29, 2015)

cesare said:


> I'm surprised he hasn't done it already to distract attention from his pig fucking great PR story.


Now that was genius. I mean no publicity is bad publicity right? Everyone's talking about him, his personal brand must have gone way up.


----------



## cesare (Sep 29, 2015)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Now that was genius. I mean no publicity is bad publicity right? Everyone's talking about him, his personal brand must have gone way up.


Everyone thinks that pig fucking thing is so cool and will vote Tory from now on as long as the pig fucker is in charge


----------



## ffsear (Sep 29, 2015)

This thread =  bunch of fucking...







's


----------



## treelover (Sep 29, 2015)

> He promised the movement, which has so far organised three Fuck Parade protests in London, would seek to expand. He said: “They’re going to take place all around Britain. I’m going up to Scotland now to talk to some people in Glasgow and Edinburgh about possible ones there.”



I bet he isn't really going to Scotland, he seems to think he is some kind of Mr Big.


----------



## Flavour (Sep 29, 2015)

Should business owners be targeted by angry mobs? Absolutely. Does it matter what they sell? No. Does it matter if they are a multinational corporation or an "independent" local business catering to the middle class? No. Fuck em. Shops for wankers up and down the land need reminding: you lot are wankers.


----------



## treelover (Sep 29, 2015)

Is this satire?


----------



## grit (Sep 29, 2015)

treelover said:


> Is this satire?


Considering the tag line I'd expect not.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 29, 2015)

cesare said:


> How about if it was a small business selling lampshades made of human skin?


Edgy _and _vibrant. What sort of equity are you offering?


----------



## cesare (Sep 29, 2015)

DaveCinzano said:


> Edgy _and _vibrant. What sort of equity are you offering?


Shades not shares


----------



## Mr Moose (Sep 29, 2015)

cesare said:


> Class War accuses Cereal Killer Cafe owners of ‘milking publicity'



Bit Stalinist. We'll attack your highly unpromising cereal business, but you may never speak of it or be branded counter-revolutionary.


----------



## treelover (Sep 29, 2015)

> Iwas involved with a £50 million regeneration scheme in London. Most of the money went to architects, while 3 out of 4 of the CEOs were arrested or found guilty at tribunals. The Council-managed organisation decided to pay their friends £50 per hour for attending meetings, while claiming they were volunteering tirelessly for the community, while the actual volunteers who spent time with the public, volunteers who were actually qualified media practitioners, some even famous (but unemployed) were paid £0. 2 of the CEOs purloined a council flat for themselves, the third stole £150,000 and went to prison. For years and years the volunteers appealed to local police, who laughed at them, ridiculed them and ignored them, until of course the truth was out. No apology of course from either police or council. This is just the tip of the iceberg of problems, corruption and slimy turds that I was dealing with. The voluntary sector and non-profit sector is full of predators, who once caught, change borough and start all over again.



someone posted this on the CIF article, may be worth someone like Laptop looking at it.


----------



## Dowie (Sep 29, 2015)

treelover said:


> I bet he isn't really going to Scotland, he seems to think he is some kind of Mr Big.



few more publicity stunts and he could probably release a new book


----------



## cesare (Sep 29, 2015)

Mr Moose said:


> Bit Stalinist. We'll attack your highly unpromising cereal business, but you may never speak of it or be branded counter-revolutionary.


Stalin would probably just have sent them to the gulag or had them killed. Not given them credit for #hatecrime interviews to the liberal press.


----------



## xenon (Sep 30, 2015)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Now that was genius. I mean no publicity is bad publicity right? Everyone's talking about him, his personal brand must have gone way up.


 Is this what they call  pork barrel politics?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Sep 30, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> Cereal Killers is an example of businesses opening that reflect the desires of the new social class moving into the area pushing the WC out. It may be a symptom rather than cause, but those doing it have nailed their colours to the mast of the process.


In the case of Brick lane, I doubt that. If you don't have social housing, you're paying a lot for your rent, and that's been true for years now. And if you do have social housing, you're not being pushed out. 

This idea of characterising 'hipsters' as gentrifiers is wide of the mark, imo. Many whose outward markers are hipsterish - the well-trimmed beard, the expensive haircut, etc - will be young people paying more for a small room in a shared house than someone in social housing pays for a whole flat to themselves. They will be struggling to get by, living on their overdrafts, having half their wages stolen from them by landlords... They will be victims of gentrification, incomers with no chance of social housing, no chance of buying, so stuck with no choice but to be ripped off in private housing. 

But they are young, have no dependants, and still have some disposable income left despite being ripped off. And they spend that disposable income in ways that the 40-something and 50-something posters on here don't get. 

Hipster = gentrifier is a rotten equation. It's based on little more than prejudice.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Sep 30, 2015)

butchersapron said:


> There _ can be only one_ working class person on here.




Very nice to see you back on the boards Butchers. Pardon the possibly royal tinted analogy but it was like the tower of london without the ravens.


----------



## ClassWar2015 (Sep 30, 2015)

treelover said:


> I bet he isn't really going to Scotland, he seems to think he is some kind of Mr Big.



He's in Glasgow right now.


----------



## treelover (Sep 30, 2015)

The Raven awakes!


----------



## cesare (Sep 30, 2015)

littlebabyjesus said:


> In the case of Brick lane, I doubt that. If you don't have social housing, you're paying a lot for your rent, and that's been true for years now. And if you do have social housing, you're not being pushed out.
> 
> This idea of characterising 'hipsters' as gentrifiers is wide of the mark, imo. Many whose outward markers are hipsterish - the well-trimmed beard, the expensive haircut, etc - will be young people paying more for a small room in a shared house than someone in social housing pays for a whole flat to themselves. They will be struggling to get by, living on their overdrafts, having half their wages stolen from them by landlords... They will be victims of gentrification, incomers with no chance of social housing, no chance of buying, so stuck with no choice but to be ripped off in private housing.
> 
> ...


Why do you think that people with social housing aren't being pushed out? Why do you keep saying this?

See this for example: Brick Lane: Gentrification threat to Spitalfields Bangladeshi community - BBC News

And Pickman's has already referred you to other examples.


----------



## no-no (Sep 30, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> Cereal Killers is an example of businesses opening that reflect the desires of the new social class moving into the area pushing the WC out. It may be a symptom rather than cause, but those doing it have nailed their colours to the mast of the process.


Would it be okay if they were local working class
lads running the the cereal shop? Are other shops in the area allowed to sell to hipsters or do they then become class traitors?


----------



## Supine (Sep 30, 2015)

So why isnt this Bone fella being locked up for incitement to violence or whatever the law is now called?


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 30, 2015)

Working class shop owners. Hilarious!


----------



## cantsin (Sep 30, 2015)

littlebabyjesus said:


> In the case of Brick lane, I doubt that. If you don't have social housing, you're paying a lot for your rent, and that's been true for years now. And if you do have social housing, you're not being pushed out.
> 
> This idea of characterising 'hipsters' as gentrifiers is wide of the mark, imo. Many whose outward markers are hipsterish - the well-trimmed beard, the expensive haircut, etc - will be young people paying more for a small room in a shared house than someone in social housing pays for a whole flat to themselves. They will be struggling to get by, living on their overdrafts, having half their wages stolen from them by landlords... They will be victims of gentrification, incomers with no chance of social housing, no chance of buying, so stuck with no choice but to be ripped off in private housing.
> 
> ...



hipsters tend to be agents and emblems of gentrifcation, not actual gentrifiers ( they re not exactly know as property developers, or particularly as homeowners) .  Shoreditch itself is complicated - it's been a long process of hipsterfication / gentrification, arguably starting with the YBA s late 80s  and a slow burn over 30 yrs : the cafe across from where I work ( once a month) just closed , as the landlord finally doubled his rent, 5 yrs after last review - he always did alright, despite the changes to the area, cos there are still so many builders around, but the squeeze finally came - Pret / Sainsburys / chains only for cheapish  sarnies etc now .

Better example of how hipster lead gentrification works quickly and brutally is up the road, Kingsland Rd to dalston - was about 10 yrs ago the first ( v good ) little clubs started in the basements of the the old African establishments and the like on Kingsland , v hip, away from the over weekendy Shoreditch, and in that ten years house prices in the surrounding streets has started going mad , it was a like a big advertising hoarding for the better off middle classes : open for business . Massive over simplification  , and more recently, Hackney / Hackney Wick / Clapton more obvious examples, but that's another / related story.


----------



## mauvais (Sep 30, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> Working class shop owners. Hilarious!


Are you refining the caricature here or something?

So you can own a house outright and be working class, right? But rent a leveraged, debt-laden retail premises and you become... what? Automagically middle class? One of the untouchables? Or do you conveniently vanish?


----------



## cesare (Sep 30, 2015)

Supine said:


> So why isnt this Bone fella being locked up for incitement to violence or whatever the law is now called?


Because most people aren't stupid enough to suggest or expect it, I imagine.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 30, 2015)

mauvais said:


> Are you refining the caricature here or something?
> 
> So you can own a house outright and be working class, right? But rent a leveraged, debt-laden retail premises and you become... what? Automagically middle class? One of the untouchables? Or do you conveniently vanish?


 how often do we need to go over the phrase 'relationship to the means of production' before you understsnd it? shopowners are, hsve been, and will remain petit-bourgeois. unless they're proper bourgeois...


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 30, 2015)

Supine said:


> So why isnt this Bone fella being locked up for incitement to violence or whatever the law is now called?


because he hasn't in fact incited violence perhaps.


----------



## cesare (Sep 30, 2015)

mauvais said:


> Are you refining the caricature here or something?
> 
> So you can own a house outright and be working class, right? But rent a leveraged, debt-laden retail premises and you become... what? Automagically middle class? One of the untouchables? Or do you conveniently vanish?





> “The small shopkeeper,” wrote Marx in “The Class Struggle in France,” “rose up and moved against the barricades, in order to restore the movement from the street into his shop. And when the barricades had been destroyed, when the workmen had been defeated, when the shopkeepers, drunk with victory, turned back to their shops, they found their entry barred by the saviours of property, the official agents of financial capital, who met them with stern demands: ‘The bills have become overdue! Pay up, gentlemen! Pay for your premises, pay four your goods.’ The poor little shop was ruined, the poor shopkeeper was undone!”



Marx and the Middle Classes

I'm not a Marxist, but I don't think C66 was refining the caricature. What do you think the caricature is of the working class, btw?


----------



## mauvais (Sep 30, 2015)

cantsin said:


> Better example of how hipster lead gentrification works quickly and brutally is up the road, Kingsland Rd to dalston - was about 10 yrs ago the first ( v good ) little clubs started in the basements of the the old African establishments and the like on Kingsland , v hip, away from the over weekendy Shoreditch, and in that ten years house prices in the surrounding streets has started going mad , it was a like a big advertising hoarding for the better off middle classes : open for business . Massive over simplification of course , and of course more recently, Hackney / Hackney Wick / Clapton more obvious examples.


Not to disagree I think, but whilst hipsters might be a catalyst or enabler, they're not much of an active ingredient. What you describe is basically appropriation of value; something good exists, like a music scene, and it inflates into property demand, which is filled by a certain demographic. If you swap out the pejorative "hipster" for "young people who follow fashion" it gets a bit vague to pin anything on them, not least because it wouldn't take long to find some other bunch of people to do the job. To some extent, it's managed and directed.

And it is cyclical, so in the meantime, somewhere gets worse. Maybe not in equal measure or equal distance or in a tight timeframe, because populations and cities are expanding and property is still going up, but for every bit of London getting gentrified, then offset for those trends, there's probably one somewhere fading. You see this more clearly with other cities that have a more stable population & property values, like Manchester and e.g. Hulme and the areas people were displaced to. It's a turntable of decline and redevelopment/gentrification.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 30, 2015)

mauvais said:


> Not to disagree I think, but whilst hipsters might be a catalyst or enabler, they're not much of an active ingredient. What you describe is basically appropriation of value; something good exists, like a music scene, and it inflates into property demand, which is filled by a certain demographic. If you swap out the pejorative "hipster" for "young people who follow fashion" it gets a bit vague to pin anything on them, not least because it wouldn't take long to find some other bunch of people to do the job. To some extent, it's managed and directed.
> 
> And it is cyclical, so in the meantime, somewhere gets worse. Maybe not in equal measure or equal distance or in a tight timeframe, because populations and cities are expanding and property is still going up, but for every bit of London getting gentrified, then offset for those trends, there's probably one somewhere fading. You see this more clearly with other cities that have a more stable population & property values, like Manchester and e.g. Hulme and the areas people were displaced to. It's a turntable of decline and redevelopment/gentrification.


name one of these 'fading' areas


----------



## mauvais (Sep 30, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> how often do we need to go over the phrase 'relationship to the means of production' before you understsnd it? shopowners are, hsve been, and will remain petit-bourgeois. unless they're proper bourgeois...


Thanks, eighteenth century! It's a joy to me that we can unironically draw up and put into practice real world divisions where property-owning baby boomers sit comfortably on one side of the definition, but own nothing except a bit of leveraged retail space or a fucking burger van and you're on the other with a nod to Kierkegaard or something, neglecting actual meaningful divisions in order to bite your own tail. What a load of shit.



cesare said:


> Marx and the Middle Classes
> 
> I'm not a Marxist, but I don't think C66 was refining the caricature. What do you think the caricature is of the working class, btw?


Not a caricature of the WC per se, but a caricature of a useless pattern that grants you admission, and one that doesn't feel challenged by modern complexities. See above.



Pickman's model said:


> name one of these 'fading' areas


I don't know London. Probably somewhere much nearer the M25 now. And 'fading' isn't necessarily connected at all to property values either. But when the crash comes and the music stops and various demographics migrate to or settle in particular places, it'll be a lot clearer.


----------



## cesare (Sep 30, 2015)

mauvais said:


> Thanks, eighteenth century! It's a joy to me that we can unironically draw up and put into practice real world divisions where property-owning baby boomers sit comfortably on one side of the definition, but own nothing except a bit of leveraged retail space or a fucking burger van and you're on the other with a nod to Kierkegaard or something, neglecting actual meaningful divisions in order to bite your own tail. What a load of shit.
> 
> Not a caricature of the WC per se, but a caricature of a useless pattern that grants you admission, and one that doesn't feel challenged by modern complexities. See above.
> 
> I don't know London. Probably somewhere much nearer the M25 now. But when the crash comes and the music stops and various demographics migrate to or settle in particular places, it'll be a lot clearer.


You have the better of me mauvais - particularly because you seem to be in possession of facts that I don't have. For example, these shop keepers' lack of owning anything except leveraged retail space. Did you pluck that from your arse, or are you actually in a position to know this?

Edit: Wrong century, muppet.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 30, 2015)

mauvais said:


> Thanks, eighteenth century! It's a joy to me that we can unironically draw up and put into practice real world divisions where property-owning baby boomers sit comfortably on one side of the definition, but own nothing except a bit of leveraged retail space or a fucking burger van and you're on the other with a nod to Kierkegaard or something, neglecting actual meaningful divisions in order to bite your own tail. What a load of shit.
> 
> Not a caricature of the WC per se, but a caricature of a useless pattern that grants you admission, and one that doesn't feel challenged by modern complexities. See above.
> 
> I don't know London. Probably somewhere much nearer the M25 now. And 'fading' isn't necessarily connected at all to property values either. But when the crash comes and the music stops and various demographics migrate to or settle in particular places, it'll be a lot clearer.


if i'd wanted a post that showed you haven't a clue i couldn't have invented a better one than this ^^


----------



## stethoscope (Sep 30, 2015)

No wonder change is never going to happen politically/economically/socially in this country when we're so full of wishy-washy liberals who don't seem to understand class or its relevance today, question gentrification as being no more than prejudice against someone's appearance, and think that throwing paint at a private business is violence.

I'm not even an anarchist but proper fucking depressing it really is


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 30, 2015)

cesare said:


> You have the better of me mauvais - particularly because you seem to be in possession of facts that I don't have. For example, these shop keepers' lack of owning anything except leveraged retail space. Did you pluck that from your arse, or are you actually in a position to know this?
> 
> Edit: Wrong century, muppet.


mauvais never has the better of you.


----------



## cesare (Sep 30, 2015)

stethoscope said:


> No wonder change is never going to happen politically/economically in this country when we're so full of wishy-washy liberals who don't seem to understand class or its relevance today, question gentrification as being no more than prejudice against someone's appearance, and think that throwing paint at a private business is violence.
> 
> I've not even an anarchist but proper fucking depressing it really is


This is where Marxists and anarchists find some common ground


----------



## cesare (Sep 30, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> mauvais never has the better of you.


He's far better than me with microsoft paint, tbf.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 30, 2015)

mauvais what's the difference between your real world divisions and your actual meaningful divisions?


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 30, 2015)

cesare said:


> He's far better than me with microsoft paint, tbf.


sign of a mis-spent youth


----------



## cesare (Sep 30, 2015)

I'm really surprised at this lack of concern for the dispossessed and homeless together with the annoyance at those that fight back against it.


----------



## cesare (Sep 30, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> sign of a mis-spent youth


Everyone should have a mis-spent youth


----------



## mauvais (Sep 30, 2015)

cesare said:


> You have the better of me mauvais - particularly because you seem to be in possession of facts that I don't have. For example, these shop keepers' lack of owning anything except leveraged retail space. Did you pluck that from your arse, or are you actually in a position to know this?


Look at the actual cash capital needed to start a business - not necessarily a long term successful one, but something resembling a business all the same. Not how much borrowed money you need to spend, or how much blood you need to cough up in security, but what you need in cash. Supposedly 92% do it with less than a grand. Supposedly 8% live in social housing, FWIW. Fuck it, you can apparently build a skyscraper with three thousand euros.

Is any of this healthy? Of course not. Does 'starting a business' translate specifically or even strongly into operating out of London retail estate? Probably not, although propping up retail leasing is probably more about property speculation than it is about any meaningful prospects for the tenant. But if you want to draw up lines where running a shop inherently puts someone on the wrong side, which seems to be some people's aim, then to do it rationally, it's going to be a weirdly contorted affair and you're going to end up with a very small, slightly strange collection of people in your quarter.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 30, 2015)

cesare said:


> Everyone should have a mis-spent youth


yeh. but spending it in front of a computer, not even on the internet or playing a game - that's just a waste


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 30, 2015)

,


----------



## cesare (Sep 30, 2015)

mauvais said:


> Look at the actual cash capital needed to start a business - not necessarily a long term successful one, but something resembling a business all the same. Not how much borrowed money you need to spend, or how much blood you need to cough up in security, but what you need in cash. Supposedly 92% do it with less than a grand. Supposedly 8% live in social housing, FWIW. Fuck it, you can apparently build a skyscraper with three thousand euros.
> 
> Is any of this healthy? Of course not. Does 'starting a business' translate specifically or even strongly into operating out of London retail estate? Probably not, although propping up retail leasing is probably more about property speculation than it is about any meaningful prospects for the tenant. But if you want to draw up lines where running a shop inherently puts someone on the wrong side, which seems to be some people's aim, then to do it rationally, it's going to be a weirdly contorted affair and you're going to end up with a very small, slightly strange collection of people in your quarter.


Point us in the direction of where anyone drew a line at running a shop, please.


----------



## stethoscope (Sep 30, 2015)

cesare said:


> I'm really surprised at this lack of concern for the dispossessed and homeless together with the annoyance at those that fight back against it.



This is what really gets me. The whole liberal outrage and incredible amounts of navel gazing I've seen in the media, social media, etc. about 'violence against a cereal cafe' (which as someone mentioned above, is two shops now employing 12 staff that got hit with some paint!) in one of London's poorest areas. Where's the fucking equal outrage from those people about what's happening to those communities, the shit housing situation, that public services are being decimated, Asian Women's centres being replaced by shops selling fucking overpriced designer lampshades. OH BUT THEY SHOULD HAVE TARGETED STARBUCKS FIRST11!1!

Fucking nora.


----------



## cesare (Sep 30, 2015)

stethoscope said:


> This is what really gets me. The whole liberal outrage and incredible amounts of navel gazing I've seen in the media, social media, etc. about a 'violence against a cereal cafe' (which as someone mentioned above, is two shops now employing 12 staff with a bit of paint over it!) in one of London's poorest areas. Where's the fucking equal outrage from those people about what's happening to those communities, the shit housing situation, that public services are being decimated, Asian Women's centres being replaced by fucking shops selling overpriced designer lampshades. OH BUT THEY SHOULD HAVE TARGETED STARBUCKS FIRST11!1!
> 
> Fucking nora.


I think it stems mainly from fear. For example , if we concentrate efforts on the dispossessed and homeless, then the squeezed middle won't be any better off. And if wealth is redistributed, the squeezed middle won't be better off. Plus identification with making money and expanding and becoming an employer with more and more staff to earn a profit from.


----------



## mauvais (Sep 30, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> mauvais what's the difference between your real world divisions and your actual meaningful divisions?


Real world divisions shouldn't need any illustration. The current trend of accelerating wealth consolidation and the joys of "trickle down" economics, at various different levels from the corporate to the individual landlord. Where you draw the most important line is up to you, but I suggest it's not at the fairly arbitrary, low point of whether someone can run a shop or not.

The latter doesn't tell you a thing about net wealth, or the flow of wealth. You can have paid off the mortgage on what is now a £n00,000 house, or for that matter be paying much less than the market rate in rent, and noone bat an eyelid at your class credentials. But be permanently mired in private renting yet put up a few grand in cash on a shit business idea that the bank shouldn't have supported and is ultimately going to bankrupt you, and you're the bourgeoisie. It's a useless measure.


----------



## mauvais (Sep 30, 2015)

cesare said:


> Point us in the direction of where anyone drew a line at running a shop, please.


What's this?



no-no said:


> Would it be okay if they were local working class
> lads running the the cereal shop? Are other shops in the area allowed to sell to hipsters or do they then become class traitors?





Citizen66 said:


> Working class shop owners. Hilarious!


----------



## cesare (Sep 30, 2015)

mauvais said:


> What's this?


You think that's some sort of line? The line is owning the means of production.

Edit: So, to illustrate, I'm petit bourgeois becuase I work for myself. But if I start employing someone and making a profit from their labour, I exploit their labour. I can do that in a fairly small way such as tradespeople like painters and decorators do. Or I can do it in a way where I want to expand, get more shops, employ more people. But you misunderstand C66's reaction. He wasn't saying that there's an absolute line drawn at owning a shop (which is how you're misrepresenting it). He was laughing at the idea that shop owners could be positioned as working class. Even the cafe owners themselves don't say that, they just always mention that they come from working class roots.


----------



## mauvais (Sep 30, 2015)

cesare said:


> You think that's some sort of line? The line is owning the means of production.


The chief concern of the dispossessed and homeless, is it?


----------



## cesare (Sep 30, 2015)

mauvais said:


> The chief concern of the dispossessed and homeless, is it?


Owning the means of production? Where have I said that the dispossessed and homeless are mainly concerned with owning the means of production?


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 30, 2015)

mauvais said:


> What's this?


don't just take my word for it


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 30, 2015)

mauvais said:


> Real world divisions shouldn't need any illustration. The current trend of accelerating wealth consolidation and the joys of "trickle down" economics, at various different levels from the corporate to the individual landlord. Where you draw the most important line is up to you, but I suggest it's not at the fairly arbitrary, low point of whether someone can run a shop or not.
> 
> The latter doesn't tell you a thing about net wealth, or the flow of wealth. You can have paid off the mortgage on what is now a £n00,000 house, or for that matter be paying much less than the market rate in rent, and noone bat an eyelid at your class credentials. But be permanently mired in private renting yet put up a few grand in cash on a shit business idea that the bank shouldn't have supported and is ultimately going to bankrupt you, and you're the bourgeoisie. It's a useless measure.


sounds like a load of auld tosh to me. i would prefer you not to use terms which convey meaning only to you in the future.


----------



## no-no (Sep 30, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> how often do we need to go over the phrase 'relationship to the means of production' before you understsnd it? shopowners are, hsve been, and will remain petit-bourgeois. unless they're proper bourgeois...



Can you go over it one more time for me please? I don't understand.


----------



## cesare (Sep 30, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> don't just take my word for it


We're a nation of shopkeeprs and still rather attached to it  I guess it harks back to trade and its importance in developing the Empire  Plus Thatcher's children etc


----------



## cesare (Sep 30, 2015)

There's hope for the shop keepers in the revolution though! 1789: The Fact and Fiction of the Sans-Culottes Movement


----------



## stethoscope (Sep 30, 2015)

Still, watching 'left' liberals uniting with right-wing libertarians uniting with the political/media establishment uniting with business people to condone this 'terrible action' has been most illuminating. More interesting than the cereal cafe getting hit tbh - which when I heard about it on Sat night bought some brief amusement and a reaction of 'oh, I could see that happening' but beyond that I didn't really give much more thought about it. Never for one moment expected they'd be all this.


----------



## cesare (Sep 30, 2015)

stethoscope said:


> Still, watching 'left' liberals uniting with right-wing libertarians uniting with the political/media establishment uniting with business people to condone this 'terrible action' has been most illuminating. More interesting than the cereal cafe getting hit tbh - which when I heard about it on Sat night bought some brief amusement and a reaction of 'oh, I could see that happening' but beyond that I didn't really give much more thought about it, and never for one moment expected they'd be all this.


Protection of property and profit, innit. All the rest is handwavey fight for Corbyn shit.


----------



## belboid (Sep 30, 2015)

treelover said:


> someone posted this on the CIF article, may be worth someone like Laptop looking at it.


it's not _entirely _accurate - tho it gets the gist right. One of those CEO's then came to work on the similar scheme in Sheffield, until a local community newspaper exposed them.


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 30, 2015)

cesare said:


> You think that's some sort of line? The line is owning the means of production.
> 
> Edit: So, to illustrate, I'm petit bourgeois becuase I work for myself. But if I start employing someone and making a profit from their labour, I exploit their labour. I can do that in a fairly small way such as tradespeople like painters and decorators do. Or I can do it in a way where I want to expand, get more shops, employ more people. But you misunderstand C66's reaction. He wasn't saying that there's an absolute line drawn at owning a shop (which is how you're misrepresenting it). He was laughing at the idea that shop owners could be positioned as working class. Even the cafe owners themselves don't say that, they just always mention that they come from working class roots.



Not sure if self employed is MC as you're still selling your labour but to clients rather than a boss.


----------



## stethoscope (Sep 30, 2015)

cesare said:


> Protection of property and profit, innit. All the rest is handwavey fight for Corbyn shit.



Oh aye. As I say, it's really illuminating as to what's really important in some people's eyes. This is the outcome of 30+ years of neo-liberalism.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 30, 2015)

no-no said:


> Can you go over it one more time for me please? I don't understand.


yes


----------



## cesare (Sep 30, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> Not sure if self employed is MC as you're still selling your labour but to clients rather than a boss.


I suppose I draw a distinction between petit bourgeois and MC, probably mistakenly. I'm not really a Marxist, have some interesting conversations about how Marx' theory would have developed if he'd been based in Birmingham instead at that time. Less factory/production based and more emphasis on reproduction. But yeah, I sell my labour but I try and get more than I'm worth, and turn the labour-exploitation model around.


----------



## mauvais (Sep 30, 2015)

cesare said:


> Edit: So, to illustrate, I'm petit bourgeois becuase I work for myself. But if I start employing someone and making a profit from their labour, I exploit their labour. I can do that in a fairly small way such as tradespeople like painters and decorators do. Or I can do it in a way where I want to expand, get more shops, employ more people. But you misunderstand C66's reaction. He wasn't saying that there's an absolute line drawn at owning a shop (which is how you're misrepresenting it). He was laughing at the idea that shop owners could be positioned as working class. Even the cafe owners themselves don't say that, they just always mention that they come from working class roots.


I'm not taking particular issue with C66 or that comment - it's just a comment that felt like it represents a divisive and isolationist trend throughout this thread and indeed 'movement', where we're encouraged to hunker down and go fight the most local source of discontent. I might be wrong about the comment but it doesn't really matter. And I don't even care if shop owners fit the term or not. It's still the wrong battlefield.

Gentrification is a top down flow that's only experienced at the bottom. It's fundamental mechanisms like property development, property speculation, the interests of large capital and various other ills, but manifested and experienced as hipsters taking over. So what good is fighting the symptoms, or retreating into some political definition? What are you ultimately going to argue, that people shouldn't want to live in nice places and have nice things? Or have shops? It's just the joke about religious denominations, but with some vague class cartoon instead, not even anything meaningfully representing wealth and power. Almost all the same problems in common but push him off the bridge because he shops in the wrong supermarket.

So it's funny to me that people raise the strawman of people not protesting public service cuts, or housing problems, but then apparently want us to spend the effort turning on our neighbours and would-be-peers over their, what, existence, instead? Good luck with that.

And you and PM can slap each other on the back all you like, and quote more times that I can keep up with, and maybe I have indeed missed some greater point altogether, who knows, but it seems like a right load of misdirected shit to me.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 30, 2015)

mauvais said:


> I'm not taking particular issue with C66 or that comment - it's just a comment that felt like it represents a divisive and isolationist trend throughout this thread and indeed 'movement', where we're encouraged to hunker down and go fight the most local source of discontent. I might be wrong about the comment but it doesn't really matter. And I don't even care if shop owners fit the term or not. It's still the wrong battlefield.
> 
> Gentrification is a top down flow that's only experienced at the bottom. It's fundamental mechanisms like property development, property speculation, the interests of large capital and various other ills, but manifested and experienced as hipsters taking over. So what good is fighting the symptoms, or retreating into some political definition? What are you ultimately going to argue, that people shouldn't want to live in nice places and have nice things? Or have shops? It's just the joke about religious denominations, but with some vague class cartoon instead, not even anything meaningfully representing wealth and power. Almost all the same problems in common but push him off the bridge because he shops in the wrong supermarket.
> 
> ...


you have if you think gentrification's a top down flow only experienced at the bottom.


----------



## belboid (Sep 30, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> Not sure if self employed is MC as you're still selling your labour but to clients rather than a boss.


it would be utterly stupid to define self-employed as middle class.  One in seven workers is now officially self-employed, the idea that they are all middle class is plainly ridiculous.  A large percentage will be that pseudo-self-employed, whereby they cant get an employees contract but will actually be under the direction and control of an employer (eg Yodel drivers, lots of sparks on sites). Some of them may even employ a worker or two, but there relation to them means of production hasn't really changed.  When it comes to shop ownership.....it still depends to an extent.  Something like my local paper shop, or the cafe down the road, the owners are in essentially the same position as their customers, similar income, similar, housing, similar lifestyle.  There is a _significant _difference between them and employees, but not really a fundamental one.

It is a bit different if you are going to swan into an area and provide a service to the tourists rather than the locals - you are then not a part of that 'community' (for want of a better world) and will probably see yourself as being different, and will behave in a fundamentally different manner.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 30, 2015)

belboid said:


> it would be utterly stupid to define self-employed as middle class.  One in seven workers is now officially self-employed, the idea that they are all middle class is plainly ridiculous.  A large percentage will be that pseudo-self-employed, whereby they cant get an employees contract but will actually be under the direction and control of an employer (eg Yodel drivers, lots of sparks on sites). Some of them may even employ a worker or two, but there relation to them means of production hasn't really changed.  When it comes to shop ownership.....it still depends to an extent.  Something like my local paper shop, or the cafe down the road, the owners are in essentially the same position as their customers, similar income, similar, housing, similar lifestyle.  There is a _significant _difference between them and employees, but not really a fundamental one.
> 
> It is a bit different if you are going to swan into an area and provide a service to the tourists rather than the locals - you are then not a part of that 'community' (for want of a better world) and will probably see yourself as being different, and will behave in a fundamentally different manner.


once you employ a manager and 12 staff i think it's fairly clear what you are.


----------



## cesare (Sep 30, 2015)

stethoscope said:


> Oh aye. As I say, it's really illuminating as to what's really important in some people's eyes. This is the outcome of 30+ years of neo-liberalism.


I agree. We'll be accused of slapping each other on the back in a minute.


----------



## mauvais (Sep 30, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> you have if you think gentrification's a top down flow only experienced at the bottom.


Illustrative as always. Do you get charged per word?

What else is it? Who makes the money from it, and who experiences the loss?



cesare said:


> I agree. We'll be accused of slapping each other on the back in a minute.


You've spent more time talking about me than to me.


----------



## cesare (Sep 30, 2015)

mauvais said:


> You've spent more time talking about me than to me.



Oh well.


----------



## belboid (Sep 30, 2015)

mauvais said:


> Gentrification is a top down flow that's only experienced at the bottom. It's fundamental mechanisms like property development, property speculation, the interests of large capital and various other ills, but manifested and experienced as hipsters taking over. So what good is fighting the symptoms, or retreating into some political definition? What are you ultimately going to argue, that people shouldn't want to live in nice places and have nice things? Or have shops? It's just the joke about religious denominations, but with some vague class cartoon instead, not even anything meaningfully representing wealth and power. Almost all the same problems in common but push him off the bridge because he shops in the wrong supermarket.


it isn't all top down tho, the process does require that a smaller layer of 'gentrifiers' also moves in to provide the niche services that the middle class incomers want, but that the big corps are far too distant to recognise, or are just too specialist for them to risk.  So the big money advertises the falts and the cars, while the smaller ones bring artisanal carrots and tapestries made by peruvian social workers.  After all ,the new MC's dont like big corporations, so the little drivers of gentrification are almost as important as the Foxtons.


btw - anyone see Lisa McKenzie on Newsnight last night?  Sadly, she was crap.


----------



## belboid (Sep 30, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> once you employ a manager and 12 staff i think it's fairly clear what you are.


have they got 12 staff?  Jesus.  Well, I daresay they wont do for long.  Altho this publicity will give them an extra few months


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 30, 2015)

mauvais said:


> What else is it? Who makes the money from it, and who experiences the loss?


if you think it's all about money then you don't understand it at all. it is about power, it is about community, it is about class, it is about the right to the city, to use lefebvre's term. while money enters into it it is not by any means the sole factor. why don't you have a look at the fuck parade's callout and then have a think and then come back.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 30, 2015)

mauvais said:


> You've spent more time talking about me than to me.


you get a more meaningful and enjoyable discussion that way


----------



## cesare (Sep 30, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> once you employ a manager and 12 staff i think it's fairly clear what you are.


I don't think even the cafe owners are disputing that they're business people, looking to expansion, opening new premises and employing staff. Their sudden positioning as hand-to-mouth-no-property-to their name, isn't coming from them, it's been thrown into the mix (in this instance) by mauvais.


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 30, 2015)

belboid said:


> have they got 12 staff?  Jesus.  Well, I daresay they wont do for long.  Altho this publicity will give them an extra few months


2 shops. Six per shop seems excessive tho. How hard can it be to bowl up cereal and work a till


----------



## brogdale (Sep 30, 2015)

Last night's 'Newsnight' at 33.35 = discussion with Juliet Hartly-Brewer & Lisa Mckenzie.

JHB spins the 'there is no social cleansing from social housing' line that some on here appear to subscribe to. Have to say Lisa did not seem at her best, though.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 30, 2015)

brogdale said:


> Last night's 'Newsnight' at 33.35 = discussion with Juliet Hartly-Brewer & Lisa Mckenzie.
> 
> JHB spins the 'there is no social cleansing from social housing' line that some on here appear to subscribe to. Have to say Lisa did not seem at her best, though.


even lm can have an off day


----------



## brogdale (Sep 30, 2015)

belboid said:


> btw - anyone see Lisa McKenzie on Newsnight last night?  Sadly, she was crap.



Just posted link.


----------



## cesare (Sep 30, 2015)

belboid said:


> it isn't all top down tho, the process does require that a smaller layer of 'gentrifiers' also moves in to provide the niche services that the middle class incomers want, but that the big corps are far too distant to recognise, or are just too specialist for them to risk.  So the big money advertises the falts and the cars, while the smaller ones bring artisanal carrots and tapestries made by peruvian social workers.  After all ,the new MC's dont like big corporations, so the little drivers of gentrification are almost as important as the Foxtons.
> 
> 
> btw - anyone see Lisa McKenzie on Newsnight last night?  Sadly, she was crap.


I didn't see Lisa McKenzie last night but I'm not surprised if she was off her game. Amidst the liberal handwringing, they're also trying to destroy her life and think nothing of it.


----------



## mauvais (Sep 30, 2015)

belboid said:


> it isn't all top down tho, the process does require that a smaller layer of 'gentrifiers' also moves in to provide the niche services that the middle class incomers want, but that the big corps are far too distant to recognise, or are just too specialist for them to risk.  So the big money advertises the falts and the cars, while the smaller ones bring artisanal carrots and tapestries made by peruvian social workers.  After all ,the new MC's dont like big corporations, so the little drivers of gentrification are almost as important as the Foxtons.


Fair point. It's largely proportionate to existing wealth, though, and with further opportunities for consolidation and flow of wealth upwards, e.g. lending, speculation etc. So at most, it creates a space and a demand, but almost exclusively one for those who can already afford to live in and service it. And what I mean by only experienced at the bottom is, from the perspective of living somewhere as it happens, whatever class you are, that you don't _see _any of that, you only see things like displacement, the generic high street, the appearance of hipsters, etc - who play their part but are a symptom.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 30, 2015)

cesare said:


> I didn't see Lisa McKenzie last night but I'm not surprised if she was off her game. Amidst the liberal handwringing, they're also trying to destroy her life and think nothing of it.



Always difficult to play your 'game' on their 'turf'.


----------



## chilango (Sep 30, 2015)

F


mauvais said:


> Real world divisions shouldn't need any illustration. The current trend of accelerating wealth consolidation and the joys of "trickle down" economics, at various different levels from the corporate to the individual landlord. Where you draw the most important line is up to you, but I suggest it's not at the fairly arbitrary, low point of whether someone can run a shop or not.
> 
> The latter doesn't tell you a thing about net wealth, or the flow of wealth. You can have paid off the mortgage on what is now a £n00,000 house, or for that matter be paying much less than the market rate in rent, and noone bat an eyelid at your class credentials. But be permanently mired in private renting yet put up a few grand in cash on a shit business idea that the bank shouldn't have supported and is ultimately going to bankrupt you, and you're the bourgeoisie. It's a useless measure.



Fwiw, two points.

First, owning a house outright would IMO put you in the ranks of the m/c on the simple grounds that you then have access to a supply of capital (via the sale of your house) that means you are not dependent upon selling you labour in order to survive. 

But...

...my second point is that being m/c or w/c is not (or should not) be some sort of value judgement, merely an indicator as to a) where your material interests will lie and b) what the nature of your economic power is.

Once people start to talk about cultural or moral aspects we become lost in a mire.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 30, 2015)

mauvais said:


> Fair point. It's largely proportionate to existing wealth, though, and with further opportunities for consolidation and flow of wealth upwards, e.g. lending, speculation etc. So at most, it creates a space and a demand, but almost exclusively one for those who can already afford to live in and service it. And what I mean by only experienced at the bottom is, from the perspective of living somewhere as it happens, whatever class you are, that you don't _see _any of that, you only see things like displacement, the generic high street, the appearance of hipsters, etc - who play their part but are a symptom.


not the bottom, the frontline


----------



## belboid (Sep 30, 2015)

brogdale said:


> Always difficult to play your 'game' on their 'turf'.


would have been better if LM had told her to fuck off and that she [LM] wasn't 'a lady,'  but hey ho


----------



## brogdale (Sep 30, 2015)

belboid said:


> would have been better if LM had told her to fuck off and that she [LM] wasn't 'a lady,'  but hey ho



Exactly. Their 'turf'.


----------



## belboid (Sep 30, 2015)

chilango said:


> F
> 
> 
> Fwiw, two points.
> ...


really?  So pensioners who've paid off their house, but are otherwise on state benefits are MC? Also, by your logic, anyone with a mortgage on a house in London would be MC, as they could flog it and have the capital to live quite happily up north. hmmm...


----------



## cesare (Sep 30, 2015)

belboid said:


> really?  So pensioners who've paid off their house, but are otherwise on state benefits are MC? Also, by your logic, anyone with a mortgage on a house in London would be MC, as they could flog it and have the capital to live quite happily up north. hmmm...


Having access to a supply of capital (of whatever kind, and there's more than just financial capital as we know) doesn't = owning the means of production.


----------



## belboid (Sep 30, 2015)

cesare said:


> Having access to a supply of capital (of whatever kind, and there's more than just financial capital as we know) doesn't = owning the means of production.


quite


----------



## newbie (Sep 30, 2015)

chilango said:


> F
> 
> 
> Fwiw, two points.
> ...


I think your point is necessarily true, but, of course, on that basis what separates a w/c home owner and a m/c one is simply having spent the full 25 years paying off a mortgage, ie age.  

Let's face it, any home owner can sell and have access to capital, or can borrow against their asset.  So is m/c.

It's complicated, our modern society, isn't it?


----------



## chilango (Sep 30, 2015)

belboid said:


> really?  So pensioners who've paid off their house, but are otherwise on state benefits are MC? Also, by your logic, anyone with a mortgage on a house in London would be MC, as they could flog it and have the capital to live quite happily up north. hmmm...



Could they? I guess it depends if that capital would actually enable them to live without working?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Sep 30, 2015)

newbie said:


> I
> 
> Let's face it, any home owner can sell and have access to capital, or *can borrow against their asset*.  So is m/c.


This isn't quite true. If you're a pensioner, it is very hard to borrow against a home owned outright.


----------



## chilango (Sep 30, 2015)

newbie said:


> I think your point is necessarily true, but, of course, on that basis what separates a w/c home owner and a m/c one is simply having spent the full 25 years paying off a mortgage, ie age.
> 
> Let's face it, any home owner can sell and have access to capital, or can borrow against their asset.  So is m/c.
> 
> It's complicated, our modern society, isn't it?



I'd imagine that 25 years plus of w/c interests might negate a change in material interests upon retirement somewhat...


----------



## brogdale (Sep 30, 2015)

newbie said:


> I think your point is necessarily true, but, of course, on that basis what separates a w/c home owner and a m/c one is simply having spent the full 25 years paying off a mortgage, ie age.
> 
> Let's face it, any home owner can sell and have access to capital, or can borrow against their asset.  So is m/c.
> 
> It's complicated, our modern society, isn't it?


Not if you stick to ownership of the means of production.

At the moment I don't have to sell my labour to survive and I'm not bourgeois; I just happen to have lived very frugally for years and am living off past earnings that were surplus to previous out-goings. I'm determined not to sell my labour for as long as the money lasts...that don't make me MC.


----------



## newbie (Sep 30, 2015)

littlebabyjesus said:


> This isn't quite true. If you're a pensioner, it is very hard to borrow against a home owned outright.


is it?  I thought there was a whole financial industry based around what they call 'equity release' but maybe I've misunderstaood.

Anyway, there's exceptions to any blanket statement


----------



## mauvais (Sep 30, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> not the bottom, the frontline


Fine, terms. And I don't think it's about money - independence, power, community, autonomy could all be interchanged into my sentence, so I quite agree. But I don't see how - if this is even an argument - that gentrification is different from the usual 'trickle down' pattern that's become ingrained in so much of our lives. So I don't believe that the dreaded hipsters have any more of these things _except _proportionally so as afforded by this model. So with greater affluence, they have the ability to configure their hipster district to some extent, but they'll still be powerless when the rents on their cafes and fixed wheel bicycle shops go up threefold or whatever.

When property and basic living costs are dominant, and the flow of money is at upwards at a significant rate, how does anyone towards the bottom of this pyramid really have what you describe? And this has been the whole point - that it's _almost _the same problem, just offset to some slightly different economic or demographic tier, so with different bounds and timeframes. And so, if you wanted to fight it, or change the underlying construct, who is an ally or who is the enemy? Is it the people moving in or is it the people at the top? Or, who do you want to have your class war with? The lower middle class?


----------



## chilango (Sep 30, 2015)

What might be interesting to explore is the ebb and flow of when/where the material interests of elements of the lower m/c converge with those of the w/c, I think we're entering a period of this now after a couple of generations of the opposite.


----------



## belboid (Sep 30, 2015)

chilango said:


> Could they? I guess it depends if that capital would actually enable them to live without working?


which is just the same as the person who owned a house outright in your example.  I dont think that in either case they'd be MC


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Sep 30, 2015)

belboid said:


> it isn't all top down tho, the process does require that a smaller layer of 'gentrifiers' also moves in to provide the niche services that the middle class incomers want, but that the big corps are far too distant to recognise, or are just too specialist for them to risk.  So the big money advertises the falts and the cars, while the smaller ones bring artisanal carrots and tapestries made by peruvian social workers.  After all ,the new MC's dont like big corporations, so the little drivers of gentrification are almost as important as the Foxtons..



Is that really the process? When I see an area like Homerton becoming 'gentrified', I see rents zooming up first, followed by the (rather slow) ingress of new businesses. tbh it's not really become gentrified. It's just become unaffordable. 

But to the extent that the process you talk about does happen, Foxtons will jump on any improvement in an area to talk up prices. That's the real evil of the process, imo - the impossibility in this model of urban regeneration without it turning into gentrification. For example, if an arts and crafts centre were to open in an area, providing spaces for artists and artisans at affordable prices, performance areas, exhibition areas, and loads of free activities for kids - ie something that I think few would say was not good for an area - Foxtons would leap on it as an excuse to put prices up.


----------



## chilango (Sep 30, 2015)

belboid said:


> which is just the same as the person who owned a house outright in your example.  I dont think that in either case they'd be MC



Why not?


----------



## chilango (Sep 30, 2015)

brogdale said:


> Not if you stick to ownership of the means of production.
> 
> At the moment I don't have to sell my labour to survive and I'm not bourgeois; I just happen to have lived very frugally for years and am living off past earnings that were surplus to previous out-goings. I'm determined not to sell my labour for as long as the money lasts...that don't make me MC.



Why not?


----------



## newbie (Sep 30, 2015)

brogdale said:


> Not if you stick to ownership of the means of production.
> 
> At the moment I don't have to sell my labour to survive and I'm not bourgeois; I just happen to have lived very frugally for years and am living off past earnings that were surplus to previous out-goings. I'm determined not to sell my labour for as long as the money lasts...that don't make me MC.


if you own your home outright, and can sell it whenever in order to adapt to changing circumstances, you're the beneficiary of unearned income. It's entirely possible that in a good number of the past years the notional value of your home has increased by more than you've earned. That's nothing to do with how frugally you've lived or the accumulation of investments based on past earnings.

My parents are HA tenants, and have been paying rent on the same house for ~60 years. If they move, eg to sheltered housing, they will have a modern tenancy agreement and their rent will triple.  The homeowner can sell, downsize and release capital.  Owning the MOP is only part of the differentiation between those with and those without the choices that being m/c brings.


----------



## seventh bullet (Sep 30, 2015)

cesare said:


> There's hope for the shop keepers in the revolution though! 1789: The Fact and Fiction of the Sans-Culottes Movement



And Mao with _Who are our enemies? Who are our friends? _


----------



## brogdale (Sep 30, 2015)

chilango said:


> Why not?



So you're saying until 6 months ago I was WC, but now that I'm taking a break from selling my labour I'm MC, and when my cash runs out and I go back to work I'll be WC? That fluid?


----------



## chilango (Sep 30, 2015)

brogdale said:


> So you're saying until 6 months ago I was WC, but now that I'm taking a break from selling my labour I'm MC, and when my cash runs out and I go back to work I'll be WC? That fluid?



No. But that's the thing - your cash running out, and foreseeably. That's not what I mean by having enough capital to not have to work. You're still gonna have to work at some point?


...and equally if you balance the periods of working and not working and see what impact these have on your concrete, material interests...has your "break from work"  (can I call it an extended "gap year" or would that be mean ?) changed them?


----------



## brogdale (Sep 30, 2015)

chilango said:


> No. But that's the thing - your cash running out, and foreseeably. That's not what I mean by having enough capital to not have to work. You're still gonna have to work at some point?


Yeah, but at the moment I don't have to sell my labour...and, according to your definition, I'm now middle class?

IM(possibly biased)O, that's why it's best to concentrate on ownership of the MoP.


----------



## cesare (Sep 30, 2015)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Is that really the process? When I see an area like Homerton becoming 'gentrified', I see rents zooming up first, followed by the (rather slow) ingress of new businesses. tbh it's not really become gentrified. It's just become unaffordable.
> 
> But to the extent that the process you talk about does happen, Foxtons will jump on any improvement in an area to talk up prices. That's the real evil of the process, imo - the impossibility in this model of urban regeneration without it turning into gentrification. For example, if an arts and crafts centre were to open in an area, providing spaces for artists and artisans at affordable prices, performance areas, exhibition areas, and loads of free activities for kids - ie something that I think few would say was not good for an area - Foxtons would leap on it as an excuse to put prices up.


Why do you keep ignoring what we've shown you in terms of what's happening to the social housing?


----------



## chilango (Sep 30, 2015)

...and as someone above mentioned it's about choice, and power over those choices, and this applies within work and regarding access to capital (and this where cultural and social capital become concrete rather decoration)


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Sep 30, 2015)

cesare said:


> Why do you keep ignoring what we've shown you in terms of what's happening to the social housing?


Why do you ignore the majority of the substantive points in my posts and misrepresenting what I'm saying wrt homelessness and concern for social cleansing?


----------



## cesare (Sep 30, 2015)

seventh bullet said:


> And Mao with _Who are our enemies? Who are our friends? _


I should read that, thanks.


----------



## cesare (Sep 30, 2015)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Why do you ignore the majority of the substantive points in my posts and misrepresenting what I'm saying wrt homelessness and concern for social cleansing?


Your substantive points rely on misrepresenting East End gentrification as regeneration. Now there's some regeneration, granted. But not to the extent that you seem to think there is.


----------



## belboid (Sep 30, 2015)

chilango said:


> Why not?


cos I think we should define such things based upon where people _are_, not where people could be.


----------



## mauvais (Sep 30, 2015)

Oh, and asked about the counterweight to gentrification, i.e. what areas get worse as hipsters and the middle classes take over another, I said I didn't know because I don't know London.

But I don't need to. The answer, to a significant extent, is 'everywhere but London'. Twice.

First, because the UK economy and employment and culture and everything else has for a very long time gravitated towards London and the SE, draining people and opportunities out of areas like the North of England, and even the husks of "commuter towns" which now encompasses most of Hampshire.

Then a second time in the early stages of London destroying itself, as Londoners migrate out en masse usually with wealth to their second chances like Bristol, destabilising life and displacing people in those places. Secondary gentrification, I guess, which eventually London will have to pay for itself, but probably not yet.


----------



## newbie (Sep 30, 2015)

brogdale said:


> So you're saying until 6 months ago I was WC, but now that I'm taking a break from selling my labour I'm MC, and when my cash runs out and I go back to work I'll be WC? That fluid?





belboid said:


> cos I think we should define such things based upon where people _are_, not where people could be.



well I dunno, I think a lot of this is fluid, and snapshotting an individual at a specific point can be misleading.  

A friend went to boarding school then RAF officer training, so clearly had a m/c upbringing.  Then he dropped out and worked for 15-20 years as a lorry driver, for much of that time renting a flat, so was identifiably w/c. Then three relatives, including a sibling, died in very quick succession (poor sod) and he inherited far, far more than he'd ever expected, and he's been squandering it ever since. Over the course of his lifetime so far he's clearly m/c but for best part of 2 decades in the middle was obviously w/c.

The posturing of many of the class warriors on here has to be read in that sort of light.


----------



## chilango (Sep 30, 2015)

brogdale said:


> Yeah, but at the moment I don't have to sell my labour...and, according to your definition, I'm now middle class?
> 
> IM(possibly biased)O, that's why it's best to concentrate on ownership of the MoP.



Fair enough. I'm no Marxist, and certainly not expert enough in such matters to assume my definitions are "correct". 

I do still think having enough capital to  no longer have to work (on a permanent rather than temp basis) is at least a step away from w/c. 

But it's one factor amongst several, all centred (I agree) around your relationship to the MOP.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 30, 2015)

newbie said:


> well I dunno, I think a lot of this is fluid, and snapshotting an individual at a specific point can be misleading.
> 
> A friend went to boarding school then RAF officer training, so clearly had a m/c upbringing.  Then he dropped out and worked for 15-20 years as a lorry driver, for much of that time renting a flat, so was identifiably w/c. Then three relatives, including a sibling, died in very quick succession (poor sod) and he inherited far, far more than he'd ever expected, and he's been squandering it ever since. Over the course of his lifetime so far he's clearly m/c but for best part of 2 decades in the middle was obviously w/c.
> 
> The posturing of many of the class warriors on here has to be read in that sort of light.


No, this is all pretty much bollux.
Using the WC definition of having to sell labour to survive actually casts those having to exist on benefits as MC.
That's why it seems more productive to think about ownership of the MoP.


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 30, 2015)

mauvais said:


> The lower middle class?



traditionaly the bulwark of fascism once its beyond a street movement #justsaynin'


----------



## chilango (Sep 30, 2015)

brogdale said:


> No, this is all pretty much bollux.
> Using the WC definition of having to sell labour to survive actually casts those having to exist on benefits as MC.
> That's why it seems more productive to think about ownership of the MoP.



Although many on benefits are sort of selling their labour - receiving said benefits in return for being part of the "reserve army of labour" that helps hold wages down innit?


----------



## cesare (Sep 30, 2015)

chilango said:


> Although many on benefits are sort of selling their labour - receiving said benefits in return for being part of the "reserve army of labour" that helps hold wages down innit?


They're selling it twice for the same amount if you count Workfare exploitation.


----------



## phildwyer (Sep 30, 2015)

brogdale said:


> So you're saying until 6 months ago I was WC, but now that I'm taking a break from selling my labour I'm MC, and when my cash runs out and I go back to work I'll be WC? That fluid?



'Working class' and 'middle class' are so imprecise as to be useless.  'Proletarian' and 'bourgeois' are precise.  Anyone who works for a wage is a proletarian, anyone who receives income from capital is bourgeois.  Most people in our society are both at the same time.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 30, 2015)

phildwyer said:


> 'Working class' and 'middle class' are so imprecise as to be useless.  'Proletarian' and 'bourgeois' are precise.  Anyone who works for a wage is a proletarian, anyone who receives income from capital is bourgeois.  Most people in our society are both at the same time.


Most?


----------



## belboid (Sep 30, 2015)

brogdale said:


> No, this is all pretty much bollux.
> Using the WC definition of having to sell labour to survive actually casts those having to exist on benefits as MC.
> That's why it seems more productive to think about ownership of the MoP.


it does show, to some extent, how meaningless the term 'middle class' is, except as a term of abuse. Even some of those who do sell their labour are middle class - if they are in one of those contradictory positions, maybe with a bit of managerial power (hire and fire), or because they have a highly skilled job where they can, to a large extent, actually control their labour process even while they don't own the company who pays them for their labour.


----------



## phildwyer (Sep 30, 2015)

brogdale said:


> Most?



To varying degrees, yes.  Most people have a bank account at least.  That wasn't the case when Marx used the terms--at that time, capital and labor really were incarnated in two palpably distinct classes.  Now that division has become internalized within individuals.


----------



## belboid (Sep 30, 2015)

brogdale said:


> Most?


Pensions?  They are based upon investment income, sometimes on the superprofits of third world exploitation. Even 'normal' state benefits have an element of capital earnings involved.  Pretty bloody minor tho.


----------



## belboid (Sep 30, 2015)

phildwyer said:


> To varying degrees, yes.  Most people have a bank account at least.  That wasn't the case when Marx used the terms--at that time, capital and labor really were incarnated in two palpably distinct classes.  Now that division has become internalized within individuals.


Having a bank account, even if you receive a pisspoor amount of interest, does not amount to having an income from capital.


----------



## phildwyer (Sep 30, 2015)

belboid said:


> Pensions?  They are based upon investment income, sometimes on the superprofits of third world exploitation. Even 'normal' state benefits have an element of capital earnings involved.  Pretty bloody minor tho.



Minor, but real nonetheless.

IMO the interesting thing is that, although it now exists within individuals rather than between social classes, the capital/labor dialectic remains a contradiction: capital is still alienated labor-power.


----------



## stethoscope (Sep 30, 2015)

phildwyer said:


> To varying degrees, yes.  Most people have a bank account at least.  That wasn't the case when Marx used the terms--at that time, capital and labor really were incarnated in two palpably distinct classes.  Now that division has become internalized within individuals.



You can have my finances if you like, granted I pay into a pension through my work scheme but otherwise no savings, current account constantly in the red and only 1/4 through my mortgage


----------



## phildwyer (Sep 30, 2015)

belboid said:


> Having a bank account, even if you receive a pisspoor amount of interest, does not amount to having an income from capital.



Yes it does.  Not a liveable income, maybe even a miniscule income, but still an income from capital investment.  And then there's pensions, as you noted.


----------



## cesare (Sep 30, 2015)

belboid said:


> Having a bank account, even if you receive a pisspoor amount of interest, does not amount to having an income from capital.


Well it does in a way. Which is why Lloyds (for example) have Sharia bank accounts that try and circumvent the usury effect. Just pre-empting where Phil's going with this.


----------



## phildwyer (Sep 30, 2015)

stethoscope said:


> You can have my finances if you like, granted I pay into a pension through my work scheme but otherwise no savings, current account constantly in the red and only 1/4 through my mortgage



Mortgages are another example.

Yet more interesting is the fact that capital and labor still produce manifestly different and contradictory ideologies, just as they did when they were incarnated in distinct social classes.  Today those ideological contradictions take the form of psychological conflict within individuals.


----------



## belboid (Sep 30, 2015)

cesare said:


> Well it does in a way. Which is why Lloyds (for example) have Sharia bank accounts that try and circumvent the usury effect. Just pre-empting where Phil's going with this.


It's not en ough to have an interest in defending  capital tho (altho that is much less true when it comes to pensions).  I was very deliberately avoiding the U word, for the obvious reasons


----------



## phildwyer (Sep 30, 2015)

belboid said:


> It's not en ough to have an interest in defending  capital tho (altho that is much less true when it comes to pensions).  I was very deliberately avoiding the U word, for the obvious reasons



Any worker who pays into a pension scheme has an interest in defending capital.  Yet s/he also has an interest in defending labor.  So these contradictory interests are internalized within individuals, without ceasing to function as a contradiction.


----------



## phildwyer (Sep 30, 2015)

Also, capital has its own interests, which often conflict even with the interests of its putative owners--most of whom work for a wage in addition to owning capital and are thus proletarian as well as bourgeois.

So it seems to me that the definitive contradiction of our time is not between social classes, but between capital and labor-power.  Which is to say, between human life and the objectified form of human life. 

What is another word for the objectified form of human life?


----------



## cesare (Sep 30, 2015)

belboid said:


> It's not en ough to have an interest in defending  capital tho (altho that is much less true when it comes to pensions).  I was very deliberately avoiding the U word, for the obvious reasons


I think it's a mistake to think that any of us don't have a vested interest in defending capital. Which isn't to say that we will, but it's good to be clear about how difficult it is to unintwine/disintwine (are they words?) from reliance upon/defending capital, in a capitalist society.


----------



## newbie (Sep 30, 2015)

cesare said:


> I think it's a mistake to think that any of us don't have a vested interest in defending capital. Which isn't to say that we will, but it's good to be clear about how difficult it is to unintwine/disintwine (are they words?) from reliance upon/defending capital, in a capitalist society.


agreed, very few are not stakeholders, and Phil's point about the phsycological turmoil that can produce is well made.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 30, 2015)

mauvais said:


> Fine, terms. And I don't think it's about money - independence, power, community, autonomy could all be interchanged into my sentence, so I quite agree.


or jews.





> But I don't see how - if this is even an argument - that gentrification is different from the usual 'trickle down' pattern that's become ingrained in so much of our lives. So I don't believe that the dreaded hipsters have any more of these things _except _proportionally so as afforded by this model. So with greater affluence, they have the ability to configure their hipster district to some extent, but they'll still be powerless when the rents on their cafes and fixed wheel bicycle shops go up threefold or whatever.


there is no trickle down from gentrifiers. they don't buy in the existing shops. they go to shops which cater for them - they are less likely to go to ridley road market than broadway market (or borough market) for their food. this is why businesses like the nefandous cereal cafe spring up. anyway, the money from the gentrifiers does not flow into the pockets of pre-existing local businesses but into the pockets of large supermarkets or the businesses which cater to the tastes of gentrifiers.



> When property and basic living costs are dominant, and the flow of money is at upwards at a significant rate, how does anyone towards the bottom of this pyramid really have what you describe? And this has been the whole point - that it's _almost _the same problem, just offset to some slightly different economic or demographic tier, so with different bounds and timeframes. And so, if you wanted to fight it, or change the underlying construct, who is an ally or who is the enemy? Is it the people moving in or is it the people at the top? Or, who do you want to have your class war with? The lower middle class?


when you talk about the flow of money upwards you somewhat undermine the claim about trickle down. if your posts cannot be internally consistent perhaps you need to think about the reasons for that.


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 30, 2015)

cesare said:


> How about if it was a small business selling lampshades made of human skin?



But it's not. It's a couple of young brothers who started up a business.


----------



## stethoscope (Sep 30, 2015)

Belushi said:


> I'll bite. You're obviously hinting at something in your posts on this thread, why don't you just spit it out?



krtek?


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 30, 2015)

stethoscope said:


> krtek?



stethoscope?


----------



## stethoscope (Sep 30, 2015)

krtek a houby said:


> stethoscope?



I don't think you responded to Belushi's question?


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 30, 2015)

stethoscope said:


> I don't think you responded to Belushi's question?



I think you'll find I did.


----------



## cesare (Sep 30, 2015)

krtek a houby said:


> But it's not. It's a couple of young brothers who started up a business.


But you said:


krtek a houby said:


> I don't follow.
> 
> I'm not part of your willy waving club. I dissent against the opinion that attacking small business is a good thing.



So I wondered how far this free pass for small businesses extended.


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 30, 2015)

cesare said:


> But you said:
> 
> 
> So I wondered how far this free pass for small businesses extended.



And then you made some facile comment about lampshades. I don't follow your logic.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 30, 2015)

krtek a houby said:


> I think you'll find I did.


no, you haven't.


----------



## cesare (Sep 30, 2015)

krtek a houby said:


> And then you made some facile comment about lampshades. I don't follow your logic.


I was following the blood libel theme that resulted when you suggested that bearded people were being targeted.


----------



## stethoscope (Sep 30, 2015)

krtek a houby said:


> I think you'll find I did.



Hmm, I've re-read pages 39-46, but can't see it. Can you point out the post?


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 30, 2015)

krtek a houby said:


> And then you made some facile comment about lampshades. I don't follow your logic.


no surprise there then


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 30, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> no, you haven't.



Sigh. I have said exactly what I think of this idiotic debacle of a protest and the targetting of a couple of young lads. It's not Nike, it's not Starbucks, it's not Coca Cola or Nestle. It's a cafe.

Bone and his followers are targetting the wrong places.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 30, 2015)

stethoscope said:


> Hmm, I've re-read pages 39-46, but can't see it. Can you point out the post?


i've reread and i have searched and there is only one post on this thread in which 'belushi' appears in a krtek thread: and that's on this page.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 30, 2015)

krtek a houby said:


> Sigh. I have said exactly what I think of this idiotic debacle of a protest and the targetting of a couple of young lads. It's not Nike, it's not Starbucks, it's not Coca Cola or Nestle. It's a cafe.
> 
> Bone and his followers are targetting the wrong places.


you did not respond to Belushi's post.


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 30, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> no surprise there then



Obviously not. You have to remember, I'm as thick as pigshit. The old braincells aren't what they used to be.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 30, 2015)

krtek a houby said:


> Obviously not. You have to remember, I'm as thick as pigshit. The old braincells aren't what they used to be.


the evidence of your intelligence is there for all to see, in your posting history.


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 30, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> the evidence of your intelligence is there for all to see, in your posting history.



Wouldn't you know it; you sound like a poet.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 30, 2015)

krtek a houby said:


> Wouldn't you know it; you sound like a poet.


i post in rhyme whene'er i can, to avert the danger of a permaban


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 30, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> i post in rhyme whene'er i can, to avert the danger of a permaban



Now why on earth would you ever be banned?


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 30, 2015)

krtek a houby said:


> Now why on earth would you ever be banned?


i don't know as it's not happened yet


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 30, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> i don't know as it's not happened yet



Ah, linear time. Gotcha.


----------



## mauvais (Sep 30, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> or jews.


What?

And then to reverse these two pieces:



Pickman's model said:


> when you talk about the flow of money upwards you somewhat undermine the claim about trickle down. if your posts cannot be internally consistent perhaps you need to think about the reasons for that.


There is no inconsistency at all. The two are not mutually exclusive. TDE is the (grossly wrong) idea that structuring the economy to benefit and enable the rich (upwards) will ultimately benefit all (downwards). Whether it actually does or not isn't enormously relevant.



Pickman's model said:


> there is no trickle down from gentrifiers. they don't buy in the existing shops. they go to shops which cater for them - they are less likely to go to ridley road market than broadway market (or borough market) for their food. this is why businesses like the nefandous cereal cafe spring up. anyway, the money from the gentrifiers does not flow into the pockets of pre-existing local businesses but into the pockets of large supermarkets or the businesses which cater to the tastes of gentrifiers.


Largely agreed, but largely irrelevant. The point was that gentrification is led from the top, those with the most capital and control. It doesn't have to flow through every individual and orifice for that to be the case. The middle class Guardian reader who momentarily thinks they've derived benefit from gentrification via the up and comingness of their area is also close to the bottom of this structure, because if the systemic problems were dealt with (e.g. rent controls, de-commoditisation of property, BTL neckshots) they would be far better off and more secure long term, similarly so to those who find no pleasure in it in the first place.

And IMO the money from gentrifiers flows primarily to those who own property, who benefit from either property speculation or lease, or who benefit from redevelopment. If you're renting, whether MC or WC, you're in a similar boat. This is where the population's vested and probably majority interest of capital becomes interesting (owning, looking to make money from or expecting to inherit property for a start), but in a specific and tangible way, not just political theory.


----------



## Dowie (Sep 30, 2015)

cesare said:


> I'm really surprised at this lack of concern for the dispossessed and homeless together with the annoyance at those that fight back against it.



it isn't annoyance at people who fight back against it - it is annoyance at a bunch of muppets who think smashing a small business has any relevance at all to it... though I've expressed my view on that over a few pages and it seems there have been a whole bunch of pages since then, mostly by the same few characters who don't seem to do much else with their lives than post on here, get angry/frustrated and then start getting abusive with people who disagree with them... (especially when they've not really got any decent arguments to support smashing up a independent cafe in the first place)

gentrification is an issue that raises plenty of concerns for people, expressing dismay and contempt for the people attacking the cereal cafe doesn't mean you lack concern in that area or that you're pro gentrification


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 30, 2015)

mauvais said:


> The point was that gentrification is led from the top,


despite that being utter bollocks


while obviously humorous and from an american viewpoint, this does give a better notion of how gentrification proceeds than your posts do.


----------



## mauvais (Sep 30, 2015)

Then finally we disagree on something tangible. I see it far more induced top-down direction, more of capital's invitation to come and live somewhere than led from some sort of bottom up hipster conquistadors, at least in this country. It's a parasite on movements and culture, rather than being either itself. Gentrification in most UK cities comes with a springtime of yuppie apartment tower blocks, supply leading demand, not just a response.


----------



## Mr Moose (Sep 30, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> how often do we need to go over the phrase 'relationship to the means of production' before you understsnd it? shopowners are, hsve been, and will remain petit-bourgeois. unless they're proper bourgeois...



Exactly and this is why Emily Thornberry was spot on when she stuck it to that car dealer in Rochester.


----------



## Mr Moose (Sep 30, 2015)

G'wan Emily!


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 30, 2015)

its a good try but thornberry was acting on class snobbery not denouncing the kulak


----------



## Mr Moose (Sep 30, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> its a good try but thornberry was acting on class snobbery not denouncing the kulak



A good point but whatever the motivation it's not cool to trounce the little guy.


----------



## stethoscope (Sep 30, 2015)

Sorry, I thought I'd stumbled into a completely different thread for a moment.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 30, 2015)

cesare said:


> You've not read the article, then



The Beardy Bros have put their "whole lives on the line" to make a go of their Snap, Crackle & Pop shop, according to the article. They must have sold their souls to Satan (or perhaps Pickman's model )!!!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 30, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> Cereal Killers is an example of businesses opening that reflect the desires of the new social class moving into the area pushing the WC out. It may be a symptom rather than cause, but those doing it have nailed their colours to the mast of the process.



From a <poncey hat firmly on> sociological perspective, I find it interesting that the new social class you refer to (I'd say "stratum" of an existing class, myself), whose habits appear to worship "authenticity", are such massive fans of _pastiche_. If it were nostalgia - forty and fifty-somethings eating the cereals/reliving the fashions/riding the bicycles of their youths - I could understand that, but it's twenty and thirty-somethings attempting to create an "authentic" set of consumption decisions to validate the way they see themselves - membership (through purchasing choices) of a semi-elite social stratum that deliberately eschews the idea of itself as a movement.</poncy hat off>


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 30, 2015)

The Flying Pig said:


> Not at all. I am contacting Citizen Smith and will be seeing him soon in person.
> Just because I look at things with a logical and not emotional brain does not make me a troll.
> Anyway thanks for that I can add it to the long list of names I have been called on these forums.



After you various wibblings about "ninjas", that you can claim that you look at things with a logical brain, is a source of great amusement to me.
A tip: Cultivate a sense of self-awareness.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 30, 2015)

ClassWar2015 said:


> There was no dog ripped limb from limb. No we didn't feast on it's still warm flesh. The only dog I saw all night was our mates who was having a grand old time.



It's good to know that Blighty has its' very own riot dog.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 30, 2015)

ffsear said:


> This thread =  bunch of fucking...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You see that there Scooter? That's you, that is. That's your mum.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 30, 2015)

xenon said:


> Is this what they call  pork barrel politics?



Porking pigs is bad enough.  Porking barrels is just plain sick!


----------



## mauvais (Sep 30, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> From a <poncey hat firmly on> sociological perspective, I find it interesting that the new social class you refer to (I'd say "stratum" of an existing class, myself), whose habits appear to worship "authenticity", are such massive fans of _pastiche_. If it were nostalgia - forty and fifty-somethings eating the cereals/reliving the fashions/riding the bicycles of their youths - I could understand that, but it's twenty and thirty-somethings attempting to create an "authentic" set of consumption decisions to validate the way they see themselves - membership (through purchasing choices) of a semi-elite social stratum that deliberately eschews the idea of itself as a movement.</poncy hat off>


You've just described almost all pop culture ever. Who ever went around wilfully trying to achieve fakeness by assembling themselves into an open invite cliche? Borrowing heavily on the past and calling it your own niche is, pardon my sentence, nothing new. I'm just looking forward to feeling old during the 90s and 00s revival, if indeed we're not already in it.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 30, 2015)

Supine said:


> So why isnt this Bone fella being locked up for incitement to violence or whatever the law is now called?



The answer is fairly obvious.


----------



## ffsear (Sep 30, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> You see that there Scooter? That's you, that is. That's your mum.




Mother died when i was 3 so wouln't know TBH


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 30, 2015)

mauvais said:


> You've just described almost all pop culture ever. Who ever went around wilfully trying to achieve fakeness by assembling themselves into an open invite cliche? Borrowing heavily on the past and calling it your own niche is, pardon my sentence, nothing new. I'm just looking forward to feeling old during the 90s and 00s revival, if indeed we're not already in it.



My point is that this "movement"/consumer cult/class stratum doesn't acknowledge a debt to the past, whereas most other movements and subcultures - From Punks to Teds to "New Age Travellers" have done so. These people incorporate the past into their identities, but refute any debt by "spinning" their appropriations as something entirely new.


----------



## stethoscope (Sep 30, 2015)

ffsear said:


> Mother died when i was 3 so wouln't know TBH



Your mother who was 60 last year?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 30, 2015)

mauvais said:


> Are you refining the caricature here or something?
> 
> So you can own a house outright and be working class, right? But rent a leveraged, debt-laden retail premises and you become... what? Automagically middle class? One of the untouchables? Or do you conveniently vanish?



Do they sell their labour to a boss?
Of course they don't. 
Therefore, *not* working class.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 30, 2015)

stethoscope said:


> Your mother who was 60 last year?



So he's enough of a low cunt to fabricate a family death to try to come out on top in an argument.

Awaits long _spiel _from ffsear about foster-mothers.


----------



## ffsear (Sep 30, 2015)

stethoscope said:


> Your mother who was 60 last year?



Step mother.  I just grew up not useing the using phrase "step" .   Its different when it happens when your young you know.

Not offend,  not like anyone would know is it.


----------



## ffsear (Sep 30, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> So he's enough of a low cunt to fabricate a family death to try to come out on top in an argument.
> 
> Awaits long _spiel _from ffsear about foster-mothers.



lovely,  thanks


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 30, 2015)

mauvais said:


> Thanks, eighteenth century! It's a joy to me that we can unironically draw up and put into practice real world divisions where property-owning baby boomers sit comfortably on one side of the definition, but own nothing except a bit of leveraged retail space or a fucking burger van and you're on the other with a nod to Kierkegaard or something, neglecting actual meaningful divisions in order to bite your own tail. What a load of shit.
> 
> Not a caricature of the WC per se, but a caricature of a useless pattern that grants you admission, and one that doesn't feel challenged by modern complexities. See above.
> 
> I don't know London. Probably somewhere much nearer the M25 now. And 'fading' isn't necessarily connected at all to property values either. But when the crash comes and the music stops and various demographics migrate to or settle in particular places, it'll be a lot clearer.



Marx was 19th century, you Noddy.


----------



## mauvais (Sep 30, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> Marx was 19th century, you Noddy.


It predates Marx. And are you really going to quote several pages of backlog?


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 30, 2015)

mauvais said:


> It predates Marx. And are you really going to quote several pages of backlog?


going back to the eighteenth century unhelpful tbh as - as widely acknowledged (see e.g. e.p.thompson, 'the making of the english working class') - the modern class structure didn't come into being until the nineteenth century. in addition, that shopkeepers are petit-bourgeois should not come as a surprise to anyone and certainly doesn't need to conjure kierkegaard from his grave.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 30, 2015)

mauvais said:


> It predates Marx. And are you really going to quote several pages of backlog?


we didn't really go through this before, you and i, so i would like it if you didn't piss about but simply acknowledge the rightness of #1414.


----------



## Mr Moose (Sep 30, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> From a <poncey hat firmly on> sociological perspective, I find it interesting that the new social class you refer to (I'd say "stratum" of an existing class, myself), whose habits appear to worship "authenticity", are such massive fans of _pastiche_. If it were nostalgia - forty and fifty-somethings eating the cereals/reliving the fashions/riding the bicycles of their youths - I could understand that, but it's twenty and thirty-somethings attempting to create an "authentic" set of consumption decisions to validate the way they see themselves - membership (through purchasing choices) of a semi-elite social stratum that deliberately eschews the idea of itself as a movement.</poncy hat off>



Possibly, or a couple of canny lads who saw their customers coming.

But it does sometimes seem like any random frivolity will do. A movement it's not. Being kind I'd say sometimes it's just being young.


----------



## mauvais (Sep 30, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> we didn't really go through this before, you and i, so i would like it if you didn't piss about but simply acknowledge the rightness of #1414.


I'm disclined to go through anything with you as it's rarely a pleasurable or even polite experience.

But since you and some others disagree with my experience of gentrification, I'd like to figure out what the defining characteristics are meant to be.

This is Hulme, Manchester, probably in the early 1990s.







The hipsters and boho types of the time came, but they didn't revive anything, because they came at the end. Then much of the area was demolished. What's that if not top-down control? Now it's popular with yuppies and city commuters. So is that ultimately gentrification, or is it excluded because it's a particular failure mode, i.e. shit 1960s planning?

As another example, this is part of Southampton now.






Built from the mid-2000s onwards. Big influx of yuppies, ranging from lower middle class to yacht-owning nouveau riche. But before this existed, it used to be a dock, or in some cases, underwater. I don't think it was hipsters that filled in the Solent, but maybe it was. So, is it not to be filed under gentrification because there was no housing there before? OK, but it brought a load of money and property demand into the city, and around the corner which had always existed, it changed the local economy along the usual lines of old man pubs becoming bars and restaurants and so on, which looks a lot like gentrification to me. But in case you don't know Southampton, there's no burgeoning scene or anything FFS, there was never any great pull from culture. The buildings and availability of property came first, then the image of a particular lifestyle that it portrayed, and then the inhabitants, and then the things to service them.

Again, what's that if not top-down?

Now I can see the difference between (re)development and the more common sliding-tile pattern of gentrification, especially in places where the above doesn't work. For example it's not like you can demolish parts of, say, Paris and reinvent them - you would have to appropriate and alter what exists. Ditto elsewhere for different reasons. But most of what I see, especially in Britain, admittedly outside London, is not a slow subversion - it's new, often speculative construction that largely precedes and generates the influx, rather than merely reflecting it.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 30, 2015)

mauvais said:


> I'm disclined to go through anything with you as it's rarely a pleasurable or even polite experience.
> 
> But since you and some others disagree with my experience of gentrification, I'd like to figure out what the defining characteristics are meant to be.
> 
> ...


all i asked you to do was agree with me, not to post up a load of guff which has nothing to do with the point under discussion - which was about class not about top down nonsense.


----------



## mauvais (Sep 30, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> all i asked you to do was agree with me, not to post up a load of guff which has nothing to do with the point under discussion - which was about class not about top down nonsense.


Fuck off.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 30, 2015)

mauvais said:


> It predates Marx. And are you really going to quote several pages of backlog?



As many posters are aware,I don't have much choice but to respond to posts as I encounter them, as I have neurological issues that mean that my short-term memory is - to use a technical description - so holey it makes a collander look solid.


----------



## mauvais (Sep 30, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> As many posters are aware,I don't have much choice but to respond to posts as I encounter them, as I have neurological issues that mean that my short-term memory is - to use a technical description - so holey it makes a collander look solid.


My apologies


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 30, 2015)

mauvais said:


> I'm disclined to go through anything with you as it's rarely a pleasurable or even polite experience.
> 
> But since you and some others disagree with my experience of gentrification, I'd like to figure out what the defining characteristics are meant to be.
> 
> This is Hulme, Manchester, probably in the early 1990s.[...]


yes, i am aware of the crescents. tell me, what happened to the w/c residents who were there in the 1980s?


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 30, 2015)

mauvais said:


> Fuck off.


it's that sort of response which has earned you the poor reputation you enjoy.


----------



## cesare (Sep 30, 2015)

Housing developers don't set trends - they follow them.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Sep 30, 2015)

mauvais said:


> Now I can see the difference between (re)development and the more common sliding-tile pattern of gentrification, especially in places where the above doesn't work. For example it's not like you can demolish parts of, say, Paris and reinvent them - you would have to appropriate and alter what exists. Ditto elsewhere for different reasons. But most of what I see, especially in Britain, admittedly outside London, is not a slow subversion - it's new, often speculative construction that largely precedes and generates the influx, rather than merely reflecting it.


In London I think you see both. Areas with slow subversion change over a number of years but often many of the original inhabitants remain, the people of lower incomes left being mostly those who had social housing before or soon after the process started, but they do remain - they are not, or have not been so far, pushed out. Somewhere like Chiswick in West London is like that. 

Areas with conscious, top-down social cleansing would be the likes of Elephant as I mentioned before, with demolition of council blocks and relocation of tenants elsewhere. 

In neither case, though, is the process driven by the kinds of bars/restaurants/artisanal bakeries that are present. That's very much cart-before-horse.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 30, 2015)

mauvais said:


> My apologies



No problem. I'm aware that it makes my posting style irritating.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 30, 2015)

mauvais said:


> I'm disclined to go through anything with you as it's rarely a pleasurable or even polite experience.
> 
> But since you and some others disagree with my experience of gentrification, I'd like to figure out what the defining characteristics are meant to be.
> 
> ...


if you knew anything about the crescents, you would have known that a) shoddy construction resulted in the flats leaking; b) the ducting made the buildings attractive to cockroaches and mice, leading to their unpopularity among residents; c) (and this part is poor planning rather than execution) the walkways lent themselves to criminal use. so the destruction of the buildings not due to hipsters or squatters (of whatever class) but poor construction & to an extent planning.


----------



## mauvais (Sep 30, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> yes, i am aware of the crescents. tell me, what happened to the w/c residents who were there in the 1980s?


Displaced to other bordering areas of Manchester, or outwards, some of which have subsequently been redeveloped and gentrified themselves, or are due to be, and some of which have been further neglected, which is why it serves as a reasonable illustration of the gentrification merry-go-round.



Pickman's model said:


> it's that sort of response which has earned you the poor reputation you enjoy.


You're being a cunt. Not withstanding your general rudeness and belittling, I'm trying to understand an issue and another perspective, rather than attempting to assert some absolute truth, and whether you agree with or even appreciate it, I put some effort into a post, which you then tell me is a load of guff. So if I have a reputation to enjoy, at least I enjoy it not being yours.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 30, 2015)

mauvais said:


> Displaced to other bordering areas of Manchester, or outwards, some of which have subsequently been redeveloped and gentrified themselves, or are due to be, and some of which have been further neglected, which is why it serves as a reasonable illustration of the gentrification merry-go-round.
> 
> You're being a cunt. Not withstanding your general rudeness and belittling, I'm trying to understand an issue and another perspective, rather than attempting to assert some absolute truth, and whether you agree with or even appreciate it, I put some effort into a post, which you then tell me is a load of guff. So if I have a reputation to enjoy, at least I enjoy it not being yours.


whiel i appreciate you put some effort into your post, it did not address the point in the post it affected to answer: so guff in that context, valuable perhaps in another.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 30, 2015)

cesare said:


> Housing developers don't set trends - they follow them.



Yup. Setting trends costs money, so what developers do instead is to magpie ideas that *seem* appealing. It's one of the reasons that the architecture of small-to-medium scale housing developments has a risible reputation - either generic with little bits of local vernacular architecture attached (panels of pudding stone walling set in brick appear to be popular in Norfolk, for example), or the sort of glass 'n' metal arsery that parts of The Heygate site are receiving. Nothing new, nothing adventurous. No Thamesmeads, and (at the other end of the scale) no Cressingham Gardens, just generica.


----------



## mauvais (Sep 30, 2015)

cesare said:


> Housing developers don't set trends - they follow them.


It follows population demand, and some trends, but within local bounds, I don't believe this is necessarily the case, any more than consumer product is always a response to demand. You can sell a location and lifestyle just like you can be sold a car or an iPhone you never knew you needed. Indeed, our predilection for buying into aspirational bollocks means you could easily sell a luxury apartment built in somewhere distinctly less than luxurious, as the current absence of things the tenant might consider important (bars etc) in a place is often ignored because the apparent influx of people of the same demographic suggests that it won't be long before it _does _exist. Up-and-coming.

Edit: and that in itself is a trend, of course, which now established (not least that city apartments are the place to be, regardless of the specifics) makes it even easier


----------



## cesare (Sep 30, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> Yup. Setting trends costs money, so what developers do instead is to magpie ideas that *seem* appealing. It's one of the reasons that the architecture of small-to-medium scale housing developments has a risible reputation - either generic with little bits of local vernacular architecture attached (panels of pudding stone walling set in brick appear to be popular in Norfolk, for example), or the sort of glass 'n' metal arsery that parts of The Heygate site are receiving. Nothing new, nothing adventurous. No Thamesmeads, and (at the other end of the scale) no Cressingham Gardens, just generica.


They have to be fairly sure of a trend to invest steeply in it. Look to construction and estate agents for recession signifiers etc.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 30, 2015)

cesare said:


> They have to be fairly sure of a trend to invest steeply in it. Look to construction and estate agents for recession signifiers etc.


that's why so many places are converted esp. pubs.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 30, 2015)

littlebabyjesus said:


> In London I think you see both. Areas with slow subversion change over a number of years but often many of the original inhabitants remain, the people of lower incomes left being mostly those who had social housing before or soon after the process started, but they do remain - they are not, or have not been so far, pushed out. Somewhere like Chiswick in West London is like that.
> 
> Areas with conscious, top-down social cleansing would be the likes of Elephant as I mentioned before, with demolition of council blocks and relocation of tenants elsewhere.
> 
> In neither case, though, is the process driven by the kinds of bars/restaurants/artisanal bakeries that are present. That's very much cart-before-horse.



Every local authority in London has been or is currently engaged in what the housing academic Prof Paul Watts calls "state regeneration" - local authority demolition and/or re-tasking of social housing in order to create new private dwellings. Big or small, it's *all* "conscious social cleansing" when it results in people being moved away from their _locale_, even if they're only moved a few miles down the road.
And the effect on communities is impossible to measure accurately, but has so far (in the instances I'm aware of in Lambeth and Southwark) meant the physical end of longstanding individual friendships and intra-family relations, as well as the death of community assets (different forms of social clubs; community activities to help neighbours etc). They may not be killing us as individuals, but "regeneration" and what accompanies it certainly kills us collectively - as communities.


----------



## cesare (Sep 30, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> that's why so many places are converted esp. pubs.


Yes, relatively small investment in the first instance but contributing to a feeling of prosperity and encouragement. Not a huge amount to lose if they've misjudged it.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 30, 2015)

cesare said:


> Yes, relatively small investment in the first instance but contributing to a feeling of prosperity and encouragement. Not a huge amount to lose if they've misjudged it.


yeh. but a loss to the community around it.


----------



## cesare (Sep 30, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> Every local authority in London has been or is currently engaged in what the housing academic Prof Paul Watts calls "state regeneration" - local authority demolition and/or re-tasking of social housing in order to create new private dwellings. Big or small, it's *all* "conscious social cleansing" when it results in people being moved away from their _locale_, even if they're only moved a few miles down the road.
> And the effect on communities is impossible to measure accurately, but has so far (in the instances I'm aware of in Lambeth and Southwark) meant the physical end of longstanding individual friendships and intra-family relations, as well as the death of community assets (different forms of social clubs; community activities to help neighbours etc). They may not be killing us as individuals, but "regeneration" and what accompanies it certainly kills us collectively - as communities.


At least they've learned something (I hope) from the 70s eg not taking all the displaced families and moving them onto one massive project cf Thamesmead.


----------



## cesare (Sep 30, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh. but a loss to the community around it.


The closure of the pub was a loss to the community, for sure.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 30, 2015)

cesare said:


> At least they've learned something (I hope) from the 70s eg not taking all the displaced families and moving them onto one massive project cf Thamesmead.



It's pretty much piecemeal dispersal nowadays, for the very worst of reasons - there are no new estates, nor will there be.  
Here, we're being told that we can have a new property (the council and its "co-developer" plan a phased "construct and decant" operation) on the estate. it would mean ceding our secure council tenancies for an "assured lifetime tenancy" instead though, and given the potential power that gives the local authority in varying our tenancy T & Cs and our rents, we're currently giving them the finger. Oh, and the new "social" properties will be around 25% smaller than the current ones.


----------



## cesare (Sep 30, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> It's pretty much piecemeal dispersal nowadays, for the very worst of reasons - there are no new estates, nor will there be.
> Here, we're being told that we can have a new property (the council and its "co-developer" plan a phased "construct and decant" operation) on the estate. it would mean ceding our secure council tenancies for an "assured lifetime tenancy" instead though, and given the potential power that gives the local authority in varying our tenancy T & Cs and our rents, we're currently giving them the finger. Oh, and the new "social" properties will be around 25% smaller than the current ones.


I really hate that term - decant  What's happening on your estate sounds similar to what's happening to the social housing in Tower Hamlets and Hackney.


----------



## chilango (Sep 30, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> From a <poncey hat firmly on> sociological perspective, I find it interesting that the new social class you refer to (I'd say "stratum" of an existing class, myself), whose habits appear to worship "authenticity", are such massive fans of _pastiche_. If it were nostalgia - forty and fifty-somethings eating the cereals/reliving the fashions/riding the bicycles of their youths - I could understand that, but it's twenty and thirty-somethings attempting to create an "authentic" set of consumption decisions to validate the way they see themselves - membership (through purchasing choices) of a semi-elite social stratum that deliberately eschews the idea of itself as a movement.</poncy hat off>


Even Douglas Voupland nailed this 20 odd years ago in Generation X if I recall...

Yup "Nutritional Slumming"


----------



## chilango (Sep 30, 2015)

Hulme wasn't gentrified. It was "cleared".




mauvais said:


> I'm disclined to go through anything with you as it's rarely a pleasurable or even polite experience.
> 
> But since you and some others disagree with my experience of gentrification, I'd like to figure out what the defining characteristics are meant to be.
> 
> ...


----------



## cesare (Sep 30, 2015)

chilango said:


> Hulme wasn't gentrified. It was "cleared".


Much of the original "Clockwork Orange" part of Thamesmead has been cleared now too. Many people originally living in the high rises have been "decanted" due to demolition. I wouldn't describe the area as gentrified even though there's been a lot of new building and also new business eg massive new Sainsbury. The changes have been primarily driven by structural changes arising from Crossrail development.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 30, 2015)

Wow.


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 30, 2015)

belboid said:


> it would be utterly stupid to define self-employed as middle class.  One in seven workers is now officially self-employed, the idea that they are all middle class is plainly ridiculous.  A large percentage will be that pseudo-self-employed, whereby they cant get an employees contract but will actually be under the direction and control of an employer (eg Yodel drivers, lots of sparks on sites). Some of them may even employ a worker or two, but there relation to them means of production hasn't really changed.  When it comes to shop ownership.....it still depends to an extent.  Something like my local paper shop, or the cafe down the road, the owners are in essentially the same position as their customers, similar income, similar, housing, similar lifestyle.  There is a _significant _difference between them and employees, but not really a fundamental one.
> 
> It is a bit different if you are going to swan into an area and provide a service to the tourists rather than the locals - you are then not a part of that 'community' (for want of a better world) and will probably see yourself as being different, and will behave in a fundamentally different manner.



I agree, although there's various flavours of self employed.


----------



## Dowie (Sep 30, 2015)

brogdale said:


> Wow.




I don't think that's an unreasonable point, attacking some novelty cafe because the owners look like those hipster people we're blaming for gentrification does share similarities with the actions of far right idiots.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Sep 30, 2015)

Dowie said:


> I don't think that's an unreasonable point, attacking some novelty cafe because the owners look like those hipster people we're blaming for gentrification does share similarities with the actions of far right idiots.



Are you on crack?


----------



## Dowie (Sep 30, 2015)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Are you on crack?



no I just think that attacking a novelty cafe full of students and 'hipsters' is really stupid and unhelpful... and yes attacking people who sort of fit the stereotype of the people you think are to blame for some issue is the sort of thing right wing thugs do


----------



## brogdale (Sep 30, 2015)

Dowie said:


> no I just think that attacking a novelty cafe full of students and 'hipsters' is really stupid and unhelpful... and yes attacking people who sort of fit the stereotype of the people you think are to blame for some issue is the sort of thing right wing thugs do


They attacked people?


----------



## Dowie (Sep 30, 2015)

brogdale said:


> They attacked people?



a whole cafe full apparently...


----------



## brogdale (Sep 30, 2015)

Dowie said:


> a whole cafe full apparently...


apparently?


----------



## xes (Sep 30, 2015)

brogdale said:


> apparently?


The world accoring to Dowie


----------



## stethoscope (Sep 30, 2015)

Dowie said:


> gentrification is an issue that raises plenty of concerns for people, expressing dismay and contempt for the people attacking the cereal cafe doesn't mean you lack concern in that area or that you're pro gentrification



Your concern towards gentrification and its effects on communities, working class, etc. can be seen by the following summary of your contributions on this thread:

What about the chicken?/smoke grenades!/people with beards who dress differently!/but small businesses/right wing types attacking mosques/class definitions are flawed (and repeat)


----------



## phildwyer (Sep 30, 2015)

newbie said:


> agreed, very few are not stakeholders, and Phil's point about the phsycological turmoil that can produce is well made.



Aye, for sure.

And the psychological turmoil isn't only about economic contradictions.  During the C19th and early C20th, the proletariat and the bourgeoisie looked, talked and thought in completely different ways, not just about economics but about _everything.  _If it's true that this class contradiction is now internalized, that could be expected to cause all kinds of psychological contradictions, on all kinds of subjects.  I reckon that a large part of the mental health crisis we're witnessing today can be traced to that development.


----------



## Buckaroo (Sep 30, 2015)

phildwyer said:


> Aye, for sure.
> 
> And the psychological turmoil isn't only about economic contradictions.  During the C19th and early C20th, the proletariat and the bourgeoisie looked, talked and thought in completely different ways, not just about economics but about _everything.  _If it's true that this class contradiction is now internalized, that could be expected to cause all kinds of psychological contradictions, on all kinds of subjects.  I reckon that a large part of the mental health crisis we're witnessing today can be traced to that development.



Can it bollocks! Mental Health Crisis, Fuck off!


----------



## phildwyer (Sep 30, 2015)

Buckaroo said:


> Can it bollocks! Mental Health Crisis, Fuck off!



There's currently an epidemic of depression, addiction, autism, ADHD etc.  You'd have to be pretty naive to deny that it had any socio-economic causes.  The internalization of economic contradictions seems a highly plausible candidate.


----------



## Dowie (Sep 30, 2015)

phildwyer said:


> There's currently an epidemic of depression, addiction, autism, ADHD etc.  You'd have to be pretty naive to deny that it had any socio-economic causes.



perhaps some of it is simply the result of better understanding of mental health... other parts related to different approaches by medical professionals - you mention ADHD for example, 20 times more American kids have it than French kids - that is more down to a different approach by medical professionals in who they chose to diagnoses rather than a huge difference between those populations themselves


----------



## phildwyer (Sep 30, 2015)

Dowie said:


> perhaps some of it is simply the result of better understanding of mental health... other parts related to different approaches by medical professionals - you mention ADHD for example, 20 times more American kids have it than French kids - that is more down to a different approach by medical professionals in who they chose to diagnoses rather than a huge difference between those populations themselves



That's probably a debate for another thread.  But in such a debate, I'd point out that the opinions and decisions of doctors themselves have socio-economic causes.  Science does not operate in a vacuum.

Why are certain kinds of behavior being clinicized (treated as diseases in need of medical intervention) today when they weren't 20-30 years ago?  It must reflect a change in understanding of human subjectivity, which in turn must be the result of socio-economic changes.  Once again, the internalization of economic contradictions seems likely to be a factor.


----------



## smokedout (Sep 30, 2015)

brogdale said:


> apparently?



we only seem to have the cereal cafe owner's claims to go on that it was packed with customers and kids, which seems strange because the paint incident happened an hour after they say they close on their website.  More likely they had a couple of mates round having a drink.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 30, 2015)

smokedout said:


> we only seem to have the cereal cafe owner's claims to go on that it was packed with customers and kids, which seems strange because the paint incident happened an hour after they say they close on their website.  More likely they had a couple of mates round having a drink.


...and, assuming the veracity of their story, people were attacked?


----------



## smokedout (Sep 30, 2015)

come over Tarquin, there's a protest against people like us going past our shop tonight, bring the kids, it's going to be such a larf


----------



## Dowie (Sep 30, 2015)

brogdale said:


> ...and, assuming the veracity of their story, people were attacked?



if someone is sat in a cafe and and angry mob breaks the window, throws paint at it and lobs a smoke grenade inside... (which thankfully didn't get too far past the door) then I think it is right to say they were 'attacked'


----------



## stethoscope (Sep 30, 2015)

No windows were broken I believe but if they were then that would be an act of terrible violence.


----------



## smokedout (Sep 30, 2015)

nothing was broken, i walked past it yesterday, bar a bit of paint still on the window sill there wasn't a scratch on it


----------



## brogdale (Sep 30, 2015)

Dowie said:


> *if* someone is sat in a cafe and and angry mob breaks the window, throws paint at it and lobs a smoke grenade inside... (which thankfully didn't get too far past the door) then I think it is right to say they were 'attacked'


----------



## smokedout (Sep 30, 2015)

Dowie said:


> if someone is sat in a cafe and and angry mob breaks the window, throws paint at it and lobs a smoke grenade inside... (which thankfully didn't get too far past the door) then I think it is right to say they were 'attacked'



theres a video shot from inside here: Hipster-hating mob attacks Cereal Killer cafe
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...nti-gentrification-protests-turn-violent.html
No terrified kids, no broken windows, just some paint and people throwing cornflakes


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Sep 30, 2015)

Dowie said:


> if someone is sat in a cafe and and angry mob breaks the window, throws paint at it and lobs a smoke grenade inside... (which thankfully didn't get too far past the door) then I think it is right to say they were 'attacked'



LOL - What fuckin planet are you on? Not the fucker we're all living on, that's for fuckin sure


----------



## stethoscope (Sep 30, 2015)

And here: Shoreditch anti-gentrification protest: the view from inside the Cereal Killer Cafe - video

The place does sound pretty much empty.


----------



## Dowie (Sep 30, 2015)

smokedout said:


> theres a video shot from inside here: Hipster-hating mob attacks Cereal Killer cafe
> No terrified kids, no broken windows, just some paint and people throwing cornflakes



OK wrong on the windows being broken... but still a group throwing paint, throwing a smoke grenade in the door.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Sep 30, 2015)

Dowie said:


> OK wrong on the windows being broken... but still a group throwing paint, throwing a smoke grenade in the door.



Oooooooooooooooooooooooo!


----------



## brogdale (Sep 30, 2015)

Dowie said:


> OK wrong on the windows being broken... but still a group throwing paint, throwing a smoke grenade in the door.


People were not attacked, were they? Why do you want to pretend they were?


----------



## stethoscope (Sep 30, 2015)

This wanton attack on a cafe is so much more violent and harmful than gentrification is on communities.


----------



## Celyn (Sep 30, 2015)

smokedout said:


> we only seem to have the cereal cafe owner's claims to go on that it was packed with customers and kids, which seems strange because the paint incident happened an hour after they say they close on their website.  More likely they had a couple of mates round having a drink.




Ooh, that's interesting.    Although I suppose they could have changed their opening hours and not updated their website.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 30, 2015)

stethoscope said:


> This wanton attack on a cafe is so much more violent and harmful than gentrification is on communities.


"Cafe"?
Isn't essentially a shop space in which packets of shop-bought cereal are opened into bowls and milk added?


----------



## stethoscope (Sep 30, 2015)

brogdale said:


> "Cafe"?
> Isn't essentially a shop space in which packets of shop-bought cereal are opened into bowls and milk added?



Yep.


----------



## Dowie (Sep 30, 2015)

brogdale said:


> People were not attacked, were they? Why do you want to pretend they were?



they were... a whole cafe was attacked with paint and smoke bombs... sure no windows were broken but it was still attacked


----------



## smokedout (Sep 30, 2015)

Dowie said:


> OK wrong on the windows being broken... but still a group throwing paint, throwing a smoke grenade in the door.



so some very mild property damage that caused no lasting damage, and a few uncomfortable, but hardly terrified adults, with any children presumably downstairs and so not seeing what happened.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Sep 30, 2015)

Dowie said:


> they were... a whole cafe was attacked with paint and smoke bombs... sure no windows were broken but it was still attacked



Fuck off.


----------



## Dowie (Sep 30, 2015)

smokedout said:


> so some very mild property damage that caused no lasting damage, and a few uncomfortable, but hardly terrified adults, with any children presumably downstairs and so not seeing what happened.



so a fun night out for all, everyone fine with that sort of thing... just go attacking random shops/cafes containing people who look like the sort of people we don't like


----------



## Dowie (Sep 30, 2015)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Fuck off.



great argument...


----------



## stethoscope (Sep 30, 2015)

Fuckssakes


----------



## brogdale (Sep 30, 2015)

Dowie said:


> they were... a whole cafe was attacked


Some business-owners' property was superficially damaged. 
People were not attacked; why do you desperately seek to pretend otherwise? What's your agenda here?


----------



## Belushi (Sep 30, 2015)

Fifty pages! Hopefully we'll be up to a hundred after the visit to the Jack the Ripper 'Museum' on sunday :thumbs :


----------



## Dowie (Sep 30, 2015)

brogdale said:


> Some business-owners' property was superficially damaged.
> People were not attacked; why do you desperately seek to pretend otherwise? What's your agenda here?



People were not assaulted, they group of people in the cafe were attacked... no agenda, you're just desperate to argue over semantics...


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Sep 30, 2015)

Dowie said:


> great argument...



Hide under your table.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Sep 30, 2015)

Dowie said:


> People were not assaulted, they group of people in the cafe were attacked... no agenda, you're just desperate to argue over semantics...



lol


----------



## stethoscope (Sep 30, 2015)

I'm struggling to buy this Dowie - there must be more behind your dogged persistence in making out how terrible this is, than you're letting on here


----------



## Dowie (Sep 30, 2015)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Hide under your table.


erm ok...


----------



## smokedout (Sep 30, 2015)

Dowie said:


> so a fun night out for all, everyone fine with that sort of thing... just go attacking random shops/cafes containing people who look like the sort of people we don't like



it wasn't random was it?  it was a measured protest against a successful business which is symbolic of gentrification in the area - gentrification that is destroying people's lives.  hopefully despite their bluster it made the business owners feel uncomfortable, even better it might discourage others, most importantly of all it has raised the debate about gentrification to a new level and exposed the dishonesty and vile attitudes of some of the gentrifiers, like the Ripper Museum


----------



## Dowie (Sep 30, 2015)

smokedout said:


> it wasn't random was it?  it was a measured protest against a successful business which is symbolic of gentrification in the area - gentrification that is destroying people's lives.  hopefully despite their bluster it made the business owners feel uncomfortable, even better it might discourage others, most importantly of all it has raised the debate about gentrification to a new level and exposed the dishonesty and vile attitudes of some of the gentrifiers, like the Ripper Museum



it was hardly 'measured' - attacking a small business because they're 'hipsters' is using the same sort of logic far right groups use

its raised the debate over gentrification in the same way fathers4justice have added to a debate over custody rights - cheap publicity stunt by a bunch of idiots


----------



## stethoscope (Sep 30, 2015)

Yes, you've done this bit before. It was a crap argument then, it is again.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 30, 2015)

Dowie said:


> People were not assaulted, they group of people in the cafe were attacked... no agenda, you're just desperate to argue over semantics...



Semantics? No, you said this...


Dowie said:


> _no I just think that attacking a novelty cafe full of students and 'hipsters' is really stupid and unhelpful... and yes attacking people who sort of fit the stereotype of the people you think are to blame for some issue is the sort of thing right wing thugs do_


..which was/is factually incorrect.

Try and find the good grace to admit such, eh?


----------



## Dowie (Sep 30, 2015)

stethoscope said:


> Yes, you've done this bit before. It was a crap argument then, it is again.



well I'd say the justification for it is a crap argument... 

and we'd continue for another few pages.... so I guess I'm done with this topic


----------



## stethoscope (Sep 30, 2015)

Dowie said:


> so I guess I'm done with this topic



But you're not though are you?!


----------



## Dowie (Sep 30, 2015)

brogdale said:


> Semantics? No, you said this...
> ​..which was/is factually incorrect.
> 
> Try and find the good grace to admit such, eh?



yes I said attacked which I also mentioned again in the post re: semantics...


----------



## smokedout (Sep 30, 2015)

Dowie said:


> it was hardly 'measured' - attacking a small business because they're 'hipsters' is using the same sort of logic far right groups use



it was targetted, as part of a much larger event, because they are part of the gentrification process, just like the estate agent, who did get their windows smashed.  the fact they have beards is largely irrevelent othet than the fact hipsters are ripe for havig the piss taken out of them.  so no, nothing like far right tactics which attack people based on race and ethnicity, not class and economic relations.


----------



## Dowie (Sep 30, 2015)

stethoscope said:


> But you're not though are you?!



I am... it is going round in circles... I could get into an argument over semantics for another few posts with someone who is conflating attacked and assaulted and I could get into another one, again, over whether the cafe owners and customers are actually gentrifiers... but it is going to just go around in circles and unlike some of the posters on here I don't really fancy spending hours in a pointless online bunfight so I think I am done with this thread now.


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 30, 2015)

Dowie said:


> OK wrong on the windows being broken.


hammer and tongs for a dozen pages or so and you haven't even got the basics of the incident you have railed against.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 30, 2015)

Dowie said:


> yes I said attacked which I also mentioned again in the post re: semantics...


You repeat it, but people were not attacked. What part of that do you find so difficult to comprehend?


----------



## grit (Sep 30, 2015)

brogdale said:


> You repeat it, but people were not attacked. What part of that do you find so difficult to comprehend?



I think the word he is looking for is intimidated.


----------



## keybored (Sep 30, 2015)

smokedout said:


> theres a video shot from inside here: Hipster-hating mob attacks Cereal Killer cafe
> No terrified kids, no broken windows, just some paint and people throwing cornflakes


"Matt, what's the address? I can't remember it off the top of my head..."

Fucking hipsters, they're so prolific that they can't even work out exactly what area they are gentrifying at any given moment.


----------



## free spirit (Sep 30, 2015)

I see this incident has made clear where class war stand on independent businesses small businesses vs transnational corporations.

Preferring to target small independent businesses vs transnational corporations because of the increased publicity........ fuck that.

[bone]


----------



## smokedout (Sep 30, 2015)

free spirit said:


> I see this incident has made clear where class war stand on independent businesses small businesses vs transnational corporations.



Down with big business, support your local independent loan shark.


----------



## grit (Sep 30, 2015)

free spirit said:


> I see this incident has made clear where class war stand on independent businesses small businesses vs transnational corporations.
> 
> Preferring to target small independent businesses vs transnational corporations because of the increased publicity........ fuck that.
> 
> [bone]



I thought that at the start, however bone's point of them protesting at more traditional targets doesn't get the headlines has merit.

I thought it was interesting he acknowledged the cafe milking it for all its worth (pun sort of intended!)


----------



## smokedout (Sep 30, 2015)

Independent slum landlords welcome here


----------



## smokedout (Sep 30, 2015)

I fondly remember my first independent landlord, after hearing him bullying the bloke over the hall with learning difficulties for an hour for making a complaint he'd always make sure to drunkenly bang on my door as well and threaten me a bit.  When I was a bit late with my rent, to save me any hassle, he had his mates break in and nick my stereo to cover the rent.  You just don't get that kind of personal attention from bland faceless corporations like Foxtons.


----------



## free spirit (Sep 30, 2015)

smokedout said:


> Down with big business, support your local independent loan shark.


put a starbucks next to an independent coffee shop / cafe, and Bone's saying he'd target the independent in preference to Starbucks.

It may get more publicity, but wtf is the politics behind it?

or was bone just attempting a defence of the action after the fact / being controversial for the hell of it?


----------



## smokedout (Sep 30, 2015)

free spirit said:


> put a starbucks next to an independent coffee shop / cafe, and Bone's saying he'd target the independent in preference to Starbucks.
> 
> It may get more publicity, but wtf is the politics behind it?



if its a wanky independent coffee shop that locals cant afford then the politics behind it is the same as targetting Starbucks over gentrification, except you get more publicity


----------



## smokedout (Sep 30, 2015)

guess it depends whether your politics are anti-capitalist, or whether you're just a wanky arsed liberal whose politics are based on market preference and aesthetics*

*which isn't really politics, its just shopping


----------



## free spirit (Sep 30, 2015)

smokedout said:


> if its a wanky independent coffee shop that locals cant afford then the politics behind it is the same as targetting Starbucks over gentrification, except you get more publicity


the politics is very different to the justifications that used to be used.

Little wider political agenda other than fuck anything you view as in some way not being for the people of the area / possibly making the area seem attractive to others. Leave it as a shit hole that nobody with a choice would want to move to and everything would be just hunky dory I suppose?

I get the justification in terms of rents being pushed up and forcing people out etc but there have to be better ways, better policies to campaign on than this haven't there? Rent controls being the obvious policy to stop improvements in an area from forcing up rents and forcing locals out.

Though I guess as a howl of outrage this has worked to get people thinking about the issue to some extent.


----------



## grit (Sep 30, 2015)

free spirit said:


> put a starbucks next to an independent coffee shop / cafe, and Bone's saying he'd target the independent in preference to Starbucks.
> 
> It may get more publicity, but wtf is the politics behind it?
> 
> or was bone just attempting a defence of the action after the fact / being controversial for the hell of it?



The medium is the message perhaps.


----------



## free spirit (Sep 30, 2015)

smokedout said:


> guess it depends whether your politics are anti-capitalist, or whether you're just a wanky arsed liberal whose politics are based on market preference and aesthetics*
> 
> *which isn't really politics, its just shopping


my politics have always been anti-neoliberal capitalism.

I've also always viewed being self employed as the least bad option in the current political / economic landscape for any anarchist wanting to work outside of the system, other than a workers co-op.

Apparently that must be wrong, it'd be better if we all just worked for the big tax dodging, zero hours contract using, minimum wage paying companies instead, and lump it.

That's the message that's coming across from this to me anyway.


----------



## smokedout (Sep 30, 2015)

free spirit said:


> my politics have always been anti-neoliberal capitalism.
> 
> I've also always viewed being self employed as the least bad option in the current political / economic landscape for any anarchist wanting to work outside of the system, other than a workers co-op.



Theres a difference between beig self-employed, and employing others.  This wasn't an attack on the local plumber.



> Apparently that must be wrong, it'd be better if we all just worked for the big tax dodging, zero hours contract using, minimum wage paying companies instead, and lump it.
> 
> That's the message that's coming across from this to me anyway.



Better to become the tax dodging, zero hour contract using, minimum wage paying employer yourself you mean?  On a small scale of course.  Like a shit version of Tesco.


----------



## ska invita (Sep 30, 2015)

free spirit said:


> being controversial for the hell of it?


Ian Bone? Never!!


----------



## xenon (Sep 30, 2015)

Can't be arsed reading 200 more posts, so here's a stupid question.

Is there no one of more recent times as respected or at least accorded the same academic attention as Marx that brings a contemporary class analysis of Capitalistic, economic relations? Because time and again when differenciating between the working classes and Petite bourgeoisie, with ideas ascribed to Marx, we get stuff that just doesn't seem to fit today. Or at least, ideas so abstruce and seemingly out moded with reference to many types of work people just can't relate.

TL/DR

Marx. Still bloody Marx? Where's the new lot?


----------



## free spirit (Sep 30, 2015)

smokedout said:


> Theres a difference between beig self-employed, and employing others.  This wasn't an attack on the local plumber.


and when the plumber decides they're too busy to do it all alone and takes on an apprentice /plumbers mate they're suddenly fair game?



> Better to become the tax dodging, zero hour contract using, minimum wage paying employer yourself you mean?  On a small scale of course.  Like a shit version of Tesco.


small companies have far less opportunity to dodge tax, and aren't moving billions of profits out of the UK.

But no, there's no requirement to pay minimum wage or use zero hours contracts. I can't find figures on this, but I'd suspect that small businesses would employ less people on minimum wage and zero hours contracts than big businesses, as the owner works directly with the workers, and it causes far more disruption proportionally everytime someone leaves due to the shit wages / hours.

Not saying that shit small businesses shouldn't be a legit target for protest, but deliberately choosing to hit small businesses as a preferable target to big businesses is bullshit IMO (which is what Bone was suggesting in that article).


----------



## 8den (Oct 1, 2015)

free spirit said:


> put a starbucks next to an independent coffee shop / cafe, and Bone's saying he'd target the independent in preference to Starbucks.
> 
> It may get more publicity, but wtf is the politics behind it?
> 
> or was bone just attempting a defence of the action after the fact / being controversial for the hell of it?



Jesus fucking christ what an absolute dickhead, who's allowed open a business around bone?


----------



## smokedout (Oct 1, 2015)

free spirit said:


> and when the plumber decides they're too busy to do it all alone and takes on an apprentice /plumbers mate they're suddenly fair game?
> 
> 
> small companies have far less opportunity to dodge tax, and aren't moving billions of profits out of the UK.



I've never met a small business person who doesn't dodge tax in some way



> But no, there's no requirement to pay minimum wage or use zero hours contracts. I can't find figures on this, but I'd suspect that small businesses would employ less people on minimum wage and zero hours contracts than big businesses, as the owner works directly with the workers, and it causes far more disruption proportionally everytime someone leaves due to the shit wages / hours.



You'd be wrong, generally the larger a business the better it pays (I'd have to dig around the ONS website to find the stats but its a pretty generally recognised phenomena).  More importantly, fuckloads of small businesses dont pay minimum wage, employ people as 'self-employed', have no HR departments and pay no heed to employment rights, don't recognise unions and are as heavily involved if not more so than big companies in workfare.  Certainly some of the most exploitative shits I've worked for have been small/medium sized businesses.  It's juvenile to make this distinction, and then to make another that okay bad small businesses are bad, but good small businesses are okay.  Who gets to choose which is which?  Getting sacked or being paid shit wages is the same whether its Tesco or your local newsagent, or you're local independent fucking wank shop selling snake oil or overpriced hippy tat stolen from Africa.  Fuck the lot of them.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 1, 2015)

free spirit said:


> put a starbucks next to an independent coffee shop / cafe, and Bone's saying he'd target the independent in preference to Starbucks.
> 
> It may get more publicity, but wtf is the politics behind it?
> 
> or was bone just attempting a defence of the action after the fact / being controversial for the hell of it?


His defence of the action isn't quite that though. He says it wasn't his choice - that it was a choice that emerged on the night. Not for him to tell people how to vent.


----------



## 8den (Oct 1, 2015)

So bone will attack targets because they'll generate column inches? he's basically a anarchist Kate Hopkins at this point


----------



## smokedout (Oct 1, 2015)

Is an anarchist Katie Hopkins such a bad thing?  It's just one strand in a wider struggle, and provocation has long been a successfully employed tactic - including in this case, as the bungled reaction from the Jack the Ripper Museum to recent events shows.  Class War have never pretended to be the entire solution, they are not a vanguard, the only reason this very mild bit of property damage has received such attention is because of the absence of anyone else doing anything vaguely interesting.


----------



## fredfelt (Oct 1, 2015)

xenon said:


> Can't be arsed reading 200 more posts, so here's a stupid question.
> 
> Is there no one of more recent times as respected or at least accorded the same academic attention as Marx that brings a contemporary class analysis of Capitalistic, economic relations? Because time and again when differenciating between the working classes and Petite bourgeoisie, with ideas ascribed to Marx, we get stuff that just doesn't seem to fit today. Or at least, ideas so abstruce and seemingly out moded with reference to many types of work people just can't relate.
> 
> ...



You might find this an interesting start - http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b013r2ld

"Karl Marx may have been wrong about communism but he was rightabout much of capitalism"


----------



## free spirit (Oct 1, 2015)

littlebabyjesus said:


> His defence of the action isn't quite that though. He says it wasn't his choice - that it was a choice that emerged on the night. Not for him to tell people how to vent.


I know, but then he goes on to say this, which basically is him saying that they should target small businesses in preference to big businesses for the publicity, unless he's being misquoted.


----------



## 8den (Oct 1, 2015)

free spirit said:


> I know, but then he goes on to say this, which basically is him saying that they should target small businesses in preference to big businesses for the publicity, unless he's being misquoted.
> 
> View attachment 77467



Precisely, he appears to want publicity for publicity sake. Its odious.


----------



## free spirit (Oct 1, 2015)

smokedout said:


> You'd be wrong, generally the larger a business the better it pays (I'd have to dig around the ONS website to find the stats but its a pretty generally recognised phenomena).  More importantly, fuckloads of small businesses dont pay minimum wage, employ people as 'self-employed', have no HR departments and pay no heed to employment rights, don't recognise unions and are as heavily involved if not more so than big companies in workfare.


Maybe so, I've scoured the ONS website and can't see any relevant stats.

No argument that there are bad SMEs, virtually all the businesses that have been prosecuted for not paying minimum wage are small businesses, but there are 5.2 million SMEs in the UK so hard to judge the entire sector by the few on that list.


----------



## smokedout (Oct 1, 2015)

free spirit said:


> Maybe so, I've scoured the ONS website and can't see any relevant stats.
> 
> No argument that there are bad SMEs, virtually all the businesses that have been prosecuted for not paying minimum wage are small businesses, but there are 5.2 million SMEs in the UK so hard to judge the entire sector by the few on that list.



So what makes a bad small business compared to a good one?  Is the cereal cafe a bad small business?  Is it okay to break the windows of bad small businesses like its okay to break the windows of Starbucks?  Am I allowed to take action against the people who are exploiting me, in my life, on my doorstep, or should I apply to the Green Party or someone for a list of ethically approved targets?


----------



## free spirit (Oct 1, 2015)

smokedout said:


> So what makes a bad small business compared to a good one?  Is the cereal cafe a bad small business?  Is it okay to break the windows of bad small businesses like its okay to break the windows of Starbucks?  Am I allowed to take action against the people who are exploiting me, in my life, on my doorstep, or should I apply to the Green Party or someone for a list of ethically approved targets?


do what you think's right, but be prepared to have to justify it afterwards, and if your actions are going to change the situation then you need to be sure that they're not going to backfire and turn the community against you / act to publicise and benefit the business you've attacked.

That was the lesson I learnt up in Stirling after the smashy smashy brigade turned the entire town against us overnight.


----------



## smokedout (Oct 1, 2015)

free spirit said:


> do what you think's right, but be prepared to have to justify it afterwards, and if your actions are going to change the situation then you need to be sure that they're not going to backfire and turn the community against you / act to publicise and benefit the business you've attacked.
> .



Do you think what's left of working class Shoreditch have turned against Class War because of this?  I suspect most of them haven't noticed, and some of the ones who have probably thought it was quite funny.  Some of them were there.  All I've heard is whining yuppies.  Good, fuck them.


----------



## chilango (Oct 1, 2015)

Question for the liberals:

What makes an independent business "better" than a multinational from a worker's point of view?


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 1, 2015)

chilango said:


> Question for the liberals:
> 
> What makes an independent business "better" than a multinational from a worker's point of view?



Doesn't John Lewis feature highly in surveys about job happiness, feeling valued etc.?


----------



## brogdale (Oct 1, 2015)

smokedout said:


> Do you think what's left of working class Shoreditch have turned against Class War because of this?  I suspect most of them haven't noticed, and some of the ones who have probably thought it was quite funny.  Some of them were there.  All I've heard is whining yuppies.  Good, fuck them.


I assume that the folk who have whined about the paint on the windows are the sort of people who regard it as desirable to pay someone £4+ to pour a serving of cereal into a bowl for you. (Milk extra) 
I cannot imagine what is going through their heads when they do this.


----------



## kabbes (Oct 1, 2015)

Seems to me from reading this thread that if you are outraged by the actions of Class War, that's probably because you are the target of Class War and they want you to be outraged by their actions.  To argue with them about their actions is thus to utterly miss the point.

If you think they're fucking idiots, it's best to talk to others about it, not them.  There's no point engaging in debate with people that have no interest in debating you.


----------



## stethoscope (Oct 1, 2015)

chilango said:


> Question for the liberals:
> 
> What makes an independent business "better" than a multinational from a worker's point of view?



And we all know that as soon as there's any attempts to increase minimum wage, improve worker conditions (e.g. as we see with maternity/paternity rights), its the small businesses that immediately start moaning to the media and press about how it will 'put them out of business' and 'dent their profits'. I've always been someone historically who favoured independent shops and small businesses over large chains - perhaps still do a bit given the choice within the economic system we have (I'm still wrestling with that one tbh), but my beliefs have certainly shifted over time about this. Whether  small business or big, they're both still private and their primary goal is profit for those that own/run them (whether they are also do good for their local community beyond employment is something that both small and big businesses either do well or not as I've found on experience).


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 1, 2015)

brogdale said:


> I assume that the folk who have whined about the paint on the windows are the sort of people who regard it as desirable to pay someone £4+ to pour a serving of cereal into a bowl for you. (Milk extra)
> I cannot imagine what is going through their heads when they do this.


or coming out their pockets


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 1, 2015)

free spirit said:


> put a starbucks next to an independent coffee shop / cafe, and Bone's saying he'd target the independent in preference to Starbucks.
> 
> It may get more publicity, but wtf is the politics behind it?
> 
> or was bone just attempting a defence of the action after the fact / being controversial for the hell of it?


if you have to ask the questions there's little chance you understanding the answers.


----------



## Sweet FA (Oct 1, 2015)

Dowie said:


> fathers4justice have added to a debate over custody rights - cheap publicity stunt by a bunch of idiots


You've mentioned them a couple of times; you want to ask your mate Batboy about them. He could probably explain to you why f4j's approach was in fact wildly different from CW's.


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 1, 2015)

The39thStep said:


> Doesn't John Lewis feature highly in surveys about job happiness, feeling valued etc.?


not in my book


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 1, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> not in my book


apparently they do Top places to work in the UK survey reveals range of employers - Real Business


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 1, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> apparently they do Top places to work in the UK survey reveals range of employers - Real Business


perhaps I just encountered a particularly jumped up hitler of a manager when contracting there. Wankers.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 1, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> perhaps I just encountered a particularly jumped up hitler of a manager when contracting there. Wankers.


either that or being best doesn't mean that much.


----------



## fredfelt (Oct 1, 2015)

brogdale said:


> I assume that the folk who have whined about the paint on the windows are the sort of people who regard it as desirable to pay someone £4+ to pour a serving of cereal into a bowl for you. (Milk extra)
> I cannot imagine what is going through their heads when they do this.



It's a question of taste.  I struggle with the concept of paying £2 for a cup of coffee, or up to £5 for coffee and and a sandwich.  I usually prefer to pack a packed lunch - and save my cash for overpriced ponsey craft ales - or at least strong larger at a pub.

I make no assumptions about those who regard it desirable to spend £2 on a coffee (cake extra!!!).  What's going on in their heads is their business.


----------



## pocketscience (Oct 1, 2015)

Are individuals who have exercised right to buy fair game for direct action CW protests?
Are _all_ private home owners fair game?

The last couple of gentrification threads here have tended to focus on small vs large business, marx's terminology of the classes and the economics of a bowl of cerial.

Surely the more pressing issue driving gentrification is the direct relationship: private housing vs social housing, not the indirect relationship of: a shop that (supposedly) caters for the "gentrifiers" vs "working class" employee.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Oct 1, 2015)

This thread is mad.


----------



## phildwyer (Oct 1, 2015)

Fozzie Bear said:


> This thread is mad.



The whole affair is mad.  Only in Britain....


----------



## no-no (Oct 1, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> if you have to ask the questions there's little chance you understanding the answers.



Ridiculous attitude, you're obv involved in politics but you can't be bothered to explain your position? I'll concede there may be some logical rationale behind targeting small retail outlets but I'm yet to find it on this thread or elsewhere.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 1, 2015)

no-no said:


> Ridiculous attitude, you're obv involved in politics but you can't be bothered to explain your position? I'll concede there may be some logical rationale behind targeting small retail outlets but I'm yet to find it on this thread or elsewhere.


i thought ian bone was very clear in his explanation: that it attracts the attention which having a pop at a starbucks wouldn't. i don't know how you have failed to understand it.


----------



## no-no (Oct 1, 2015)

yeah but he missed out the part where large parts of the population view it a senseless, and it's being used to discredit anti-gentrification. Lots and lots of people can live with starbucks getting their window smashed in, but they balk when it comes to a small firm getting done over. Is it just a case of breaking a few eggs to make an omlette?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 1, 2015)

no-no said:


> yeah but he missed out the part where large parts of the population view it a senseless, and it's being used to discredit anti-gentrification. Lots and lots of people can live with starbucks getting their window smashed in, but they balk when it comes to a small firm getting done over. Is it just a case of breaking a few eggs to make an omlette?


i don't think you can really say it was done over when all that was done to the property was some paint thrown over it and 'scum' written on the window. i would understand 'done over' to be at least windows broken. you're making a big fuss about fuck all.


----------



## no-no (Oct 1, 2015)

i'm not making a fuss, I don't give a shit about their windows their huge cereal mark up can cover it I'm sure. The papers have had a field day with it though, turn on lbc of a mornign and listen to the fuckwits going on about it. As far as they're concerned the place was smashed up, you can bury your head and keep saying how it was only a bit of paint but the voice of the sun and lbc is far louder and that's what most people hear. Maybe you can't account for stupidity but it still seems like an own goal to me.


----------



## chilango (Oct 1, 2015)

If anyone here hasn't already read it, can I recommend Seth Tobocman's War in the Neighborhood?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 1, 2015)

no-no said:


> i'm not making a fuss, I don't give a shit about their windows their huge cereal mark up can cover it I'm sure. The papers have had a field day with it though, turn on lbc of a mornign and listen to the fuckwits going on about it. As far as they're concerned the place was smashed up, you can bury your head and keep saying how it was only a bit of paint but the voice of the sun and lbc is far louder and that's what most people hear. Maybe you can't account for stupidity but it still seems like an own goal to me.


what has been interesting is that everyone's agreed starbucks is a fair target, the main criticism has been 'you should have got a multinational', not 'you shouldn't be smashing up shops'.


----------



## no-no (Oct 1, 2015)

that's true, and very encouraging I suppose and I guess the next hipster might think twice before opening up a gravy bar or whatever next door. (the gravy bar is my idea, keep your hands off)


----------



## cesare (Oct 1, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> i don't think you can really say it was done over when all that was done to the property was some paint thrown over it and 'scum' written on the window. i would understand 'done over' to be at least windows broken. you're making a big fuss about fuck all.


I saw the London Live interview with one of the owners this morning. He seemed very pleasant and well spoken. When the interviewer asked him how much the damage would cost he looked a bit taken aback, saying that there hadn't been any damage to the inside "as we were able to barricade the entrance to keep them out" and that there was some red paint and the word "scum" written on the glass. He did quite well to indirectly say "nothing".


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Oct 1, 2015)

Those poor hipsters


----------



## cantsin (Oct 1, 2015)

no-no said:


> that's true, and very encouraging I suppose and I guess the next hipster might think twice before opening up a gravy bar or whatever next door. (the gravy bar is my idea, keep your hands off)



I'll  confess to going to the porridge bar behind Old St, mid morning, earlier in the year. They had no porrige left unfort.

Gone now, sadly, Ish.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Oct 1, 2015)

A fuckin' porridge bar??? 

So, how much for a bowl of gloop?


----------



## cantsin (Oct 1, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> what has been interesting is that everyone's agreed starbucks is a fair target, the main criticism has been 'you should have got a multinational', not 'you shouldn't be smashing up shops'.



haha true


----------



## cantsin (Oct 1, 2015)

Mr.Bishie said:


> A fuckin' porridge bar???



alas, it is but a lolz memory now : Welcome


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 1, 2015)

8den said:


> Precisely, he appears to want publicity for publicity sake. Its odious.



As I said earlier on this thread, if course it's publicity for the sake of publicity! It's the putting on of a spectacle to get people - those people who can think beyond "evil anarchists attacking poor little working class shop-owners" - talking about what *motivated* the spectacle - gentrification in this case.


----------



## Blagsta (Oct 1, 2015)

cantsin said:


> I'll  confess to going to the porridge bar behind Old St, mid morning, earlier in the year. They had no porrige left unfort.
> 
> Gone now, sadly, Ish.


----------



## free spirit (Oct 1, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> if you have to ask the questions there's little chance you understanding the answers.


Alternatively I might just think the rationale is complete bollocks.


----------



## 8den (Oct 1, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> As I said earlier on this thread, if course it's publicity for the sake of publicity! It's the putting on of a spectacle to get people - those people who can think beyond "evil anarchists attacking poor little working class shop-owners" - talking about what *motivated* the spectacle - gentrification in this case.



Bollocks. So what happens if they attack some independent coffee shop that pays its staff well, works with the local community, and generally run by decent people because its "new". 

It's pathetic posturing by someone looking for the oxygen of publicity


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 1, 2015)

free spirit said:


> Alternatively I might just think the rationale is complete bollocks.


yeh. i think the two go in tandem.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 1, 2015)

8den said:


> Bollocks. So what happens if they attack some independent coffee shop that pays its staff well, works with the local community, and generally run by decent people because its "new".
> 
> It's pathetic posturing by someone looking for the oxygen of publicity


let's cross that stupid hypothetical when we come to it


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 1, 2015)

8den said:


> Bollocks. So what happens if they attack some independent coffee shop that pays its staff well, works with the local community, and generally run by decent people because its "new".



CKC hasn't shown itself to "work well with the local community", and we haven't been privy to what they pay their staff.
Why would they attack "some independent coffee shop" unless it were obviously taking the piss? It's pretty much implicit in the statements that Class War have made that they'll go after piss-takers, not Joe's Coffee Shop that's been serving tea and coffee to locals.
You seem to think there's no strategy in play here. IMO that's a bad mistake to make.



> It's pathetic posturing by someone looking for the oxygen of publicity



Your post? I agree.


----------



## cesare (Oct 1, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> CKC hasn't shown itself to "work well with the local community", and we haven't been privy to what they pay their staff.
> Why would they attack "some independent coffee shop" unless it were obviously taking the piss? It's pretty much implicit in the statements that Class War have made that they'll go after piss-takers, not Joe's Coffee Shop that's been serving tea and coffee to locals.
> You seem to think there's no strategy in play here. IMO that's a bad mistake to make.
> 
> ...


I've just read an article somewhere (sorry, forget where) where one of the owners says that they pay their staff £7 per hour and don't take their tips. By the way. Completely agree with the ridiculous leap of Cereal Killer bit of paint to going after Joe's greasy spoon. Bloody stupid comment to make.


----------



## The Flying Pig (Oct 1, 2015)

I have deduced that the gang of five who try to bully and intimidate people on this forum are one and the same person. Most probably a troll or undercover old bill, an agent provocateur or just bored old grumpy git sitting at home with nothing better to do. Either way I am going out in the real world to do something constructive, something that is somewhat different to the search and destroy mentality of some of the gang of five.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 1, 2015)

The Flying Pig said:


> I have deduced that the gang of five who try to bully and intimidate people on this forum are one and the same person. Most probably a troll or undercover old bill, an agent provocateur or just bored old grumpy git sitting at home with nothing better to do. Either way I am going out in the real world to do something constructive, something that is somewhat different to the search and destroy mentality of some of the gang of five.


gangs are always of four.


----------



## Citizen66 (Oct 1, 2015)

pocketscience said:


> Are individuals who have exercised right to buy fair game for direct action CW protests?
> Are _all_ private home owners fair game?
> 
> The last couple of gentrification threads here have tended to focus on small vs large business, marx's terminology of the classes and the economics of a bowl of cerial.
> ...



Please tell me you're not this obtuse. I can't keep up with some of the intellectuals on here but fucking hell. It's been explained repeatedly in baby terms.


----------



## pocketscience (Oct 1, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> Please tell me you're not this obtuse. I can't keep up with some of the intellectuals on here but fucking hell. *It's been explained repeatedly in baby terms.*


what has?


----------



## Citizen66 (Oct 1, 2015)

The Flying Pig said:


> I have deduced that the gang of five who try to bully and intimidate people on this forum are one and the same person. Most probably a troll or undercover old bill, an agent provocateur or just bored old grumpy git sitting at home with nothing better to do. Either way I am going out in the real world to do something constructive, something that is somewhat different to the search and destroy mentality of some of the gang of five.



I've probably met some of these imaginary people you're on about. Why did you lie earlier and claim you were going to meet me when no such arrangement exists? Are you special branch?


----------



## Citizen66 (Oct 1, 2015)

pocketscience said:


> what has?



Your misunderstandings.


----------



## pocketscience (Oct 1, 2015)

my misunderstandings have been explained in baby terms? 
wtf are you on about?


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Oct 1, 2015)

The Flying Pig said:


> I have deduced that the gang of five who try to bully and intimidate people on this forum are one and the same person. Most probably a troll or undercover old bill, an agent provocateur or just bored old grumpy git sitting at home with nothing better to do. Either way I am going out in the real world to do something constructive, something that is somewhat different to the search and destroy mentality of some of the gang of five.



Off you fuck.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Oct 1, 2015)

.


----------



## Citizen66 (Oct 1, 2015)

pocketscience said:


> my misunderstandings have been explained in baby terms?
> wtf are you on about?



Wtf has owning a home - which the working class have been manoeuvred into by politics from above - got to do with their social position or relationship with Capital or the means of production? Oh, they own an asset! It means jack shit with what you're claiming though,


----------



## The Flying Pig (Oct 1, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> I've probably met some of these imaginary people you're on about. Why did you lie earlier and claim you were going to meet me when no such arrangement exists? Are you special branch?


No I think you know as well as I do you have met all of them in your mind, split as it maybe. I will be meeting all five of you in the near future, or have you already decided to stand me up on the date you suggested. You are just too weird for me.


----------



## stethoscope (Oct 1, 2015)

But clearly not as weird as you. "Ninja's".


----------



## pocketscience (Oct 1, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> Wtf has owning a home - which the working class have been manoeuvred into by politics from above


A lot of self employed and small business owners would argue the same thing.


Citizen66 said:


> - got to do with their social position or relationship with Capital or the means of production? Oh, they own an asset! It means jack shit with what you're claiming though,


Why do you keep going on about the means of production yet you deride the issue of private housing (paricularly RTB) over social housing, on a thread about gentrification?
Social cleansing through social housing reduction has  been mentioned. Now it's taboo to ask if home-owners, particularly those that partook in the rush to buy cheep council gaffs, could be targeted by CW as well?


----------



## Citizen66 (Oct 1, 2015)

The Flying Pig said:


> No I think you know as well as I do you have met all of them in your mind, split as it maybe. I will be meeting all five of you in the near future, or have you already decided to stand me up on the date you suggested. You are just too weird for me.



What date was suggested?


----------



## Citizen66 (Oct 1, 2015)

pocketscience said:


> A lot of self employed and small business owners would argue the same thing.
> 
> Why do you keep going on about the means of production yet you deride the issue of private housing (paricularly RTB) over social housing, on a thread about gentrification?
> Social cleansing through social housing reduction has  been mentioned. Now it's taboo to ask if home-owners, particularly those that partook in the rush to buy cheep council gaffs, could be targeted by CW as well?



How does owning your own home exploit other people for profit? If you rent it out you're a landlord. But is that what most people do beyond needing somewhere to fucking live?


----------



## stethoscope (Oct 1, 2015)

Is it fallacy and non sequitur week or something and I didn't get the memo?


----------



## Blagsta (Oct 1, 2015)

The Flying Pig said:


> I have deduced that the gang of five who try to bully and intimidate people on this forum are one and the same person. Most probably a troll or undercover old bill, an agent provocateur or just bored old grumpy git sitting at home with nothing better to do. Either way I am going out in the real world to do something constructive, something that is somewhat different to the search and destroy mentality of some of the gang of five.


----------



## Citizen66 (Oct 1, 2015)

The Flying Pig said:


> No I think you know as well as I do you have met all of them in your mind, split as it maybe. I will be meeting all five of you in the near future, or have you already decided to stand me up on the date you suggested. You are just too weird for me.



I suggested the bookfair. If you're genuine antifa I'm sure it'll all get smoothed over. Perhaps you'll want to flex your muscles over antifa? Not very comradely. If you're a fascist cunt it'll be different. But stop pretending we've arranged something.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 1, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> I suggested the bookfair. If you're genuine antifa I'm sure it'll all get smoothed over. Perhaps you'll want to flex your muscles over antifa? Not very comradely. If you're a fascist cunt it'll be different. But stop pretending we've arranged something.


we've arranged you'll be at the bookfair and fp won't.


----------



## Citizen66 (Oct 1, 2015)

pocketscience said:


> A lot of self employed and small business owners would argue the same thing.
> 
> Why do you keep going on about the means of production yet you deride the issue of private housing (paricularly RTB) over social housing, on a thread about gentrification?
> Social cleansing through social housing reduction has  been mentioned. Now it's taboo to ask if home-owners, particularly those that partook in the rush to buy cheep council gaffs, could be targeted by CW as well?



Because the wc not demanding private housing.


----------



## Citizen66 (Oct 1, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> we've arranged you'll be at the bookfair and fp won't.



He'll be easily recognisable too by his Stone Isand chinos and Adidas Samba.


----------



## pocketscience (Oct 1, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> How does owning your own home exploit other people for profit? If you rent it out you're a landlord. But is that what most people do beyond needing somewhere to fucking live?


Jeeezus, you seem to be obsessed with "exploiting people for profit".  This is a thread about a protest that's intention was to highlight the issue of gentrification, and we're discussing that right? I'm not denying that "exploiting people for profit" has something to do with gentrification, but there are are other factors as well, you know. Like the eradication of affordable housing - who's main driver is people that have bought into the private housing market and want to see the prices of their "investments" increase by clearing the riff raff etc.


----------



## 8den (Oct 1, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> CKC hasn't shown itself to "work well with the local community", and we haven't been privy to what they pay their staff.
> Why would they attack "some independent coffee shop" unless it were obviously taking the piss? It's pretty much implicit in the statements that Class War have made that they'll go after piss-takers, not Joe's Coffee Shop that's been serving tea and coffee to locals.
> You seem to think there's no strategy in play here. IMO that's a bad mistake to make.
> 
> ...



I'm going on Bones comments. Ive not seen the statement from class war. To clarify why hasn't CKC worked well with the local community?


----------



## 8den (Oct 1, 2015)

pocketscience said:


> Jeeezus, you seem to be obsessed with "exploiting people for profit".  This is a thread about a protest that's intention was to highlight the issue of gentrification, and we're discussing that right? I'm not denying that "exploiting people for profit" has something to do with gentrification, but there are are other factors as well, you know. Like the eradication of affordable housing - who's main driver is people that have bought into the private housing market and want to see the prices of their "investments" increase by clearing the riff raff etc.



We dont seem to be talking about gentrification we seem to be talking about class war.


----------



## Citizen66 (Oct 1, 2015)

Affordable housing not synonymous with home ownership. That's a cunt's position to take. The WC have been moved into property ownership by the deliberate depletion of social housing. If you're arguing that you can fuck off, frankly.


----------



## Citizen66 (Oct 1, 2015)

8den said:


> I'm going on Bones comments. Ive not seen the statement from class war. To clarify why hasn't CKC worked well with the local community?



You can fuck off too you whining liberal shitbag.


----------



## The Flying Pig (Oct 1, 2015)

The Flying Pig said:


> No I think you know as well as I do you have met all of them in your mind, split as it maybe. I will be meeting all five of you in the near future, or have yo





Citizen66 said:


> What date was suggested?


If you can't remember ........p.s. a little clue .... the book fair suggested by your good self...and you feel you and your gang are in a position to name call?


----------



## pocketscience (Oct 1, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> Affordable housing not synonymous with home ownership. That's a cunt's position to take. The WC have been moved into property ownership by the deliberate depletion of social housing. If you're arguing that you can fuck off, frankly.


Touchy!
Do you own your own home? Ex-Council place per chance?


----------



## pocketscience (Oct 1, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> Affordable housing not synonymous with home ownership. That's a cunt's position to take. The WC have been moved into property ownership by the deliberate depletion of social housing. If you're arguing that you can fuck off, frankly.


Bollocks. Plenty of the working class I know moved into home ownership to make a fucking fortune, and that they did.
Of course, plenty of them winging now that their 18-25yr old  kids cant afford to get on the ladder or get a council place, with no hint of irony.


----------



## The Flying Pig (Oct 1, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> You can fuck off too you whining liberal shitbag.


I have just got Vicor Meldrew


Citizen66 said:


> He'll be easily recognisable too by his Stone Isand chinos and Adidas Samba.


No I will be undercover, anarchists are easily confused by clothing. I will have a dress down day.


----------



## phildwyer (Oct 1, 2015)

8den said:


> We dont seem to be talking about gentrification we seem to be talking about class war.



If you can't see the connection you're a bigger twerp than you appear, and that's really saying something.


----------



## pocketscience (Oct 1, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> Affordable housing not synonymous with home ownership. That's a cunt's position to take.


Of course it's not. Nobody suggested it was.
But to deny that the former isn't impacted by the latter is the real cunts game


----------



## free spirit (Oct 1, 2015)

pocketscience said:


> Jeeezus, you seem to be obsessed with "exploiting people for profit".  This is a thread about a protest that's intention was to highlight the issue of gentrification, and we're discussing that right? I'm not denying that "exploiting people for profit" has something to do with gentrification, but there are are other factors as well, you know. Like the eradication of affordable housing - who's main driver is people that have bought into the private housing market and want to see the prices of their "investments" increase by clearing the riff raff etc.


36% of right to buy housing in London is now private rented, as those who bought the houses chose to take the profits and run, leaving others now to pay far higher rents to private landlords for the same house probably in a worse condition than those still owned by the council.

So while they didn't directly exploit people for that profit, others are now suffering as a result of their profiteering.


----------



## 8den (Oct 1, 2015)

phildwyer said:


> If you can't see the connection you're a bigger twerp than you appear, and that's really saying something.



You're pretty simple Phil, We're spending more time talking about Class Wars actions and tactics than the issue they are protesting


----------



## pocketscience (Oct 1, 2015)

This is so hilarious it needs requoting.





Citizen66 said:


> Affordable housing not synonymous with home ownership. That's a cunt's position to take. The WC have been moved into property ownership by the deliberate depletion of social housing. If you're arguing that you can fuck off, frankly.


How old are you? You obviously didnt frequent wc areas in the 70s, 80s and 90s and certainly not in London.
The only thing that moved the massive swathes of wc *that chose* property ownership was pickfords.
Those of us left behind were either the ones who couldn't afford it or making a moral stand. The real wc.

_



			The working class can kiss my arse, ive got the formans job my very own house at last
		
Click to expand...

_


----------



## smokedout (Oct 2, 2015)

free spirit said:


> So while they didn't directly exploit people for that profit, others are now suffering as a result of their profiteering.



So that's where we should start is it.  At the bottom.  What happened to why didn't you target Starbucks?


----------



## cesare (Oct 2, 2015)

smokedout said:


> So that's where we should start is it.  At the bottom.  What happened to why didn't you target Starbucks?


"They brought it on themselves"


----------



## phildwyer (Oct 2, 2015)

8den said:


> You're pretty simple Phil, We're spending more time talking about Class Wars actions and tactics than the issue they are protesting



Oh right.  If you'd used capitals the first time I'd have got it.


----------



## 8den (Oct 2, 2015)

phildwyer said:


> Oh right.  If you'd used capitals the first time I'd have got it.



Pats head.....


----------



## Citizen66 (Oct 2, 2015)

The Flying Pig said:


> If you can't remember ........p.s. a little clue .... the book fair suggested by your good self...and you feel you and your gang are in a position to name call?



I'm not in a gang. If you come anywhere near me you'll get a bottle in your mouth.


----------



## Citizen66 (Oct 2, 2015)

pocketscience said:


> Touchy!
> Do you own your own home? Ex-Council place per chance?



No I rent a scutty room in London for more than the price of a mortgage in the north. Is that what you're fucking defending?


----------



## Citizen66 (Oct 2, 2015)

My gf has a mortgage if we're doing guilt by association; but it's ex workers house for local industry not ex council.

Now tell everyone about you.


----------



## cesare (Oct 2, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> My gf has a mortgage if we're doing guilt by association; but it's ex workers house for local industry not ex council.
> 
> Now tell everyone about you.


Why get caught up in the race to the bottom/blame the poor for getting themselves displaced shit? Leave them to it.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 2, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> No I rent a scutty room in London for more than the price of a mortgage in the north. Is that what you're fucking defending?


Who's defending that? What do you mean by defending, btw? The whole point, surely, is that many of those identified as gentrifiers by their consumer choices are in exactly that position, and that it stinks. 

But the point is also still there - as far as I know, nobody has ever been forced to buy their council flat/house and promptly sell it on for a massive profit. Yet many thousands have. And a grown-up politics would not blame them for doing that - they are using what they can to make their lives better from a position of relative disempowerment and discovering themselves by accident in a position where they can cash in. But they're cashing in from someone. Their cashing in has contributed to the position where others have no choice but to rent scutty rooms for more than the price of a mortgage in the north. It's disingenuous to pretend otherwise - that massive windfall didn't come from nowhere, it is not exploitation-free. 

And that's why, as politics, this kind of personification of the problem is rotten. Blaming individuals for choices made within an iniquitous system is a rotten form of politics. Using class analysis, which is only useful to analyse classes (ie groups) of people, to make judgements about individuals is useless politics. But this thread has been chocker-full of it.


----------



## smokedout (Oct 2, 2015)

littlebabyjesus said:


> And that's why, as politics, this kind of personification of the problem is rotten. Blaming individuals for choices made within an iniquitous system is a rotten form of politics. Using class analysis, which is only useful to analyse classes (ie groups) of people, to make judgements about individuals is useless politics. But this thread has been chocker-full of it.



So the system is iniquitous, meaning unfair.  And you can't see a distinction between people making choices because the odds are stacked against them and people making choices who already benefit from the unfairness and are merely seeking to entrench their position.  You're all over the fucking place.  What's wrong with Starbucks just making choices in this iniquitous system?  Poor Starbucks, no worse than people who bought their council house really.


----------



## cesare (Oct 2, 2015)

smokedout said:


> So the system is iniquitous, meaning unfair.  And you can't see a distinction between people making choices because the odds are stacked against them and people making choices who already benefit from the unfairness and are merely seeking to entrench their position.  You're all over the fucking place.  What's wrong with Starbucks just making choices in this iniquitous system?  Poor Starbucks, no worse than people who bought their council house really.


The perspective is skewed, eh. It's not news that RTB has resulted in ex-council properties ending up in the hands of private landlords and Tower Hamlets has suffered a lot from that (there was a report released about 18 months ago called " From Right to Buy to Buy to Let" and it showed that ~50% of TH's RTB homes had ended up that way.) But RTB has been around since the 80s, it's not a sudden phenomena. It's not the fault of the displaced that RTB didn't provide for replacement housing stock - the original wave of those buying their properties didn't even know that at the time. It's not the fault of the displaced that TH didn't have covenants preventing RTB properties to be let through the private sector. It's not the fault of the displaced that TH didn't have a right not to sell if not in the community interest. Etc. I've already provided a link that not only defines gentrification but also sets out the 4 stage gentrification process. No-one's inventing the wheel by describing gentrification, the process has been shown over and over again since the 60s. What's new is the denial of gentrification coupled with not being able to differentiate between regeneration (in the proper sense, not the aka gentrification sense used by local councillors and developers) and actual gentrification.


----------



## cesare (Oct 2, 2015)

The link I referred to above and posted earlier in the thread in answer to what littlebabyjesus says gentrification is (which I disagree with). The gentrification process is set out in the source (amongst other info) but I'll post some of it up anyway:

*3. Gentrification Processes*
	 Gentrification commonly occurs in urban areas where prior disinvestment in the urban infrastructure creates opportunities for profitable redevelopment.  It also occurs in those societies where a loss of manufacturing employment and an increase in service employment has led to an expansion in the amount of middle class professionals with a deposition towards central city living and an associated rejection of suburbia (Slater, 2011).

The inhabitants of such urban areas most likely to be displaced by the gentrification process are those living in inexpensive yet architecturally desirable housing near central business districts. They occupy housing which has the potential to be gentrified and, are themselves economically and politically powerless relative to the gentrifiers. Such people live in the area for an array of reasons; cheap rent, nearby employment opportunities or the location may hold historical or emotional significance. Their location may or may not be a matter of choice; however their existence there is a matter of the creation and location of the inner-city poor. The majority affected are on the fringes of the labour market or outside it: the elderly, welfare mothers, the unemployed and many working class households and underemployed individuals near the poverty line (Beauregard, 1986).

Pattison (1977: cited by Clay, 1979) identified four stages through which gentrification neighbourhoods commonly experience.

The initial stage consists of a small group of risk-oblivious pioneer individuals who buy and renovate properties in previously described urban areas for their own personal use. Very little displacement occurs at this stage since the pioneer gentrifiers obtain housing that is vacant or part of the normal market turnover. This group of newcomers consists largely of design professionals and artists who have the skill and time to undertake such renovation projects.

In the second stage of the gentrification process, a similar class of people to the first move in and renovate their new homes. Some quiet and subtle promotional activities often begin at this stage and are driven by estate agents whilst small-scale speculators often renovate a few houses for resale or alternatively, rental. The houses bought at this stage begin to disperse over a greater area and are often vacant and thus relatively easy to acquire. Furthermore, if the neighbourhood was to have its name or boundaries altered, it would happen at this stage of the gentrification process. This often brings forth attention from public agencies.

After the first two stages of gentrification, the media diverts attention onto the neighbourhood and it becomes a hub of interest. Whilst the pioneer individuals continue to influence the area, they often become accompanied by developers and urban renewal begins. As a result of the increasing volume of work undertaken by individual investors and new developers, the physical improvements become increasingly visible at stage three. Consequently, house prices in the area begin to escalate. The displacement process continues therefore, and it may increase to a greater extent if codes are enforced rigidly or if reassessments are made to reflect the increasing value of even the unimproved dwellings. The better maintained properties become part of the middle class market as landlords seek to take advantage of the enhanced reputation of the area – leading to further displacement. The new middle class residents in the third stage turn outward to promote the neighbourhood to other middle class individuals and to make requests for public resources; whilst turning inward to shape community life. As this occurs, tension arises between the pioneer individuals and the new gentry.

Finally, in stage four, a larger number of properties become gentrified and a simultaneous influx of middle class individuals occurs. These middle class individuals are from the business and managerial middle class, rather than from the professional middle class. To accommodate the growing demand for houses in the area, non-residential buildings may be turned into rental or condominium units and buildings that had previously been held for speculation emerge on to the market. As well as this, small and specialised retail and professional services or commercial activities begin to emerge. This all contributes to the ever increasing house and rent prices, adding to more displacement on both the renter and homeowner fronts. Often at this stage, additional neighbourhoods in the city become identified to meet the increasing demand of the middle class.

3. Gentrification Processes - Gentrification


----------



## cesare (Oct 2, 2015)

For the reasons set out above I disagree with the arguments repeated over and over in this thread that gentrification is purely a top-down construction led process. The gentrification of the East End has very closely followed the stages of the gentrification process first posited in the late 70s.

In addition, I think it's wrong to conflate the gentrifying movement of the City and middle class eastwards into the East End, with previous waves of working class immigrants into the East End. It's not the same. The reason that it's not the same, is that when each wave of working class immigrants became more prosperous, they moved away from the East End and were replaced by another wave of working class immigrants. The working class nature of the East End stayed the same, but with different types of working class people. In contrast, and this is what we're experiencing now, gentrification displaces the working class with the middle class. I think it's important to acknowledge that this is what is happening, because then the actions/protests of the displaced make more sense and the arguments of the middle class are seen for what they are - protection of their own new interests.

It's also interesting that the posters most vociferously at once both condemning the fight back/resistance to displacement together with repositioning the gentrification process here, are not quite so vociferous in condemning/repositioning on concurrent Brixton gentrification threads. Champagne & Fromage boarded their windows knowing full well that they'd be targeted as a symbol. Cereal Killer weren't quite that astute - or maybe they were and knew full well that they weren't in any particular danger. A bit of paint to clean off the windows, and they were open for business at 9am the next morning. The owner interviewed couldn't even say that the damage had cost them anything. They were a passing minor target and they've made the most of it.


----------



## The Flying Pig (Oct 2, 2015)

phildwyer said:


> If you can't





Citizen66 said:


> I'm not in a gang. If you come anywhere near me you'll get a bottle in your mouth.


From this reply are you suggesting that you no longer want to meet up at the book fair?


----------



## Citizen66 (Oct 2, 2015)

The Flying Pig said:


> From this reply are you suggesting that you no longer want to meet up at the book fair?



I asked you to PM me your phone number if you remember. We didn't get past that point.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 2, 2015)

8den said:


> I'm going on Bones comments. Ive not seen the statement from class war. To clarify why hasn't CKC worked well with the local community?


because they're gentrifying cunts.

next.


----------



## mauvais (Oct 2, 2015)

cesare said:


> For the reasons set out above I disagree with the arguments repeated over and over in this thread that gentrification is purely a top-down construction led process. The gentrification of the East End has very closely followed the stages of the gentrification process first posited in the late 70s.


There's more than one way to skin a cat, but even the process you described is heavily dependent on the support and involvement of those with most. So in some cases, fine, it's not led by new construction (still interested in what the defining differences are) but it requires media, estate agents, landlords, speculators, the structural enablement of property speculation, and a whole bunch of other factors like the death of social housing, particularly the original model whereby it was meant to provide to cross-section of society rather than creating isolated ghettos.

Top down, bottom up, not particularly helpful is it. But if you're arguing that it's a bottom up roots movement begun by artist types and later opportunistically embraced by capital, then these artists are a lot more powerful than anyone's ever given them credit for. And that for me is difficult to believe.

Just like right-to-buy is arguably bottom up with people choosing to do so, but it's an obviously foolish argument because it was a top down initiative in which they were handed a button to press that would make them a lot of money, and later beaten over the head (viz Bob Crow's taxpayer subsidised house!) if they didn't. And it's just as it's hard for me to blame individual people for taking part in gentrification via living their own lives (i.e. BtLers excluded)

And as I say, I don't have a handle on the drivers for what decides whether areas are gentrified by slow infiltration or by directed new construction, but a few things are apparent. Construction is cheap. In fact it's usually cheaper to demolish and rebuild than it is to rehabilitate. Property speculation and commoditisation (?) is probably at a level, economically and socially, not seen before, and that changes things significantly. And affordability is heavily depressed too, so how many of your gentrifying artists are now able to buy rather than rent London property? Or anywhere, for that matter? And no one renovates a rented house, so how does any kind of low income driven change work? None of this is to say it universally doesn't, but it has to have changed. 

All of this is why to me it feels utterly ridiculous to go after people at the foot of it all, whether WC or MC or even owning a business, when most are similarly blighted by the same structural shit, that could be rapidly dealt with even well within the boundaries of capitalism. But that sure doesn't happen when you're busy fighting your new neighbours.

I bet this post was a waste of time but here's hoping.


----------



## phildwyer (Oct 2, 2015)

The Flying Pig said:


> From this reply are you suggesting that you no longer want to meet up at the book fair?



Oi what are you quoting me for?

But anyway, I'll be there, again, in the hope of meeting the Pickster.  Last time I turned up he remembered a previous engagement, I hope his calendar is more empty this time.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 2, 2015)

phildwyer said:


> Oi what are you quoting me for?
> 
> But anyway, I'll be there, again, in the hope of meeting the Pickster.  Last time I turned up he remembered a previous engagement, I hope his calendar is more empty this time.


i already said on i think the bookfair thread i won't be there. this would have been 2 weeks ago.


----------



## phildwyer (Oct 2, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> i already said on i think the bookfair thread i won't be there. this would have been 2 weeks ago.



Oh how predictable.  Strange, isn't it, how whenever I'm there, you make yourself scarce?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 2, 2015)

phildwyer said:


> Oh how predictable.  Strange, isn't it, how whenever I'm there, you make yourself scarce?


not strange at all. there are people who would fly to a different continent to avoid you. so far i haven't gone to that extremity: but by god it's tempting.


----------



## phildwyer (Oct 2, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> not strange at all. there are people who would fly to a different continent to avoid you. so far i haven't gone to that extremity: but by god it's tempting.



I bet it is.  I bet you'd bury yourself in the desert and shoot yourself to the moon to avoid meeting me.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 2, 2015)

phildwyer said:


> I bet it is.  I bet you'd bury yourself in the desert and shoot yourself to the moon to avoid meeting me.


close but no cigar


----------



## Mr Moose (Oct 2, 2015)

Protesting gentrification is a good thing. The utter lack of housing security and unleashed market forces are like a neutron bomb that removes the people and leaves the buildings standing. But to blame the little foot soldiers of it is a petty vendetta. You might as well turn to your clever, personable and well off work colleague from the EU and have a go at them for driving the rents up. It's not their fault it's all chaotic and people less able to compete fall by the wayside. Or maybe you think it is. Either way it's not down to two beardy fellas from Norn. Kulaks? Jeez what next Squires?


----------



## phildwyer (Oct 2, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> close but no cigar



Well I call that a crying shame.  I'd give much to be able to shake you by the hand.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 2, 2015)

phildwyer said:


> Well I call that a crying shame.  I'd give much to be able to shake you by the hand.


how much?


----------



## phildwyer (Oct 2, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> how much?



Fifty quid.  And I'm serious.  We can film our discussion and post it up here.  Just name the place and date, I'm in.


----------



## sunnysidedown (Oct 2, 2015)

phildwyer said:


> Fifty quid.  And I'm serious.  We can film our discussion and post it up here.  Just name the place and date, I'm in.



I'll stick a tenner in the pot.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 2, 2015)

sunnysidedown said:


> I'll stick a tenner in the pot.


seats start at £20.


----------



## cesare (Oct 2, 2015)

phildwyer said:


> Oi what are you quoting me for?
> 
> But anyway, I'll be there, again, in the hope of meeting the Pickster.  Last time I turned up he remembered a previous engagement, I hope his calendar is more empty this time.


If you're referring to the time button and I met you at the Bookfair, Pickman's was definitely there too.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Oct 2, 2015)

Siege of Shoreditch was like Stalingrad, but with Froot Loops Bloopers

Fell free to call em cunts.


----------



## cantsin (Oct 2, 2015)

trying to set up straighteners at the Anarcho Bookfair is a welcome new devpt, maybe deserves it's own thread, encourage other potential participants to step up  ?


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 2, 2015)

cantsin said:


> trying to set up straighteners at the Anarcho Bookfair is a welcome new devpt, maybe deserves it's own thread, encourage other potential participants to step up  ?


London Anarchist Bookfair 2015: predictions/dramas/confrontations...


----------



## editor (Oct 2, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> I'm not in a gang. If you come anywhere near me you'll get a bottle in your mouth.


Woooargh! That goes right against our rules. No more please.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 2, 2015)

editor said:


> Woooargh! That goes right against our rules. No more please.


it's very true though. within a couple of minutes of meeting Citizen66 a couple of months ago i had a bottle in my mouth which he had very kindly bought me.


----------



## editor (Oct 2, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> it's very true though. within a couple of minutes of meeting Citizen66 a couple of months ago i had a bottle in my mouth which he had very kindly bought me.


I'm off to fry up some LOLcakes.


----------



## cesare (Oct 2, 2015)

editor said:


> Woooargh! That goes right against our rules. No more please.


Can you run your zippy software to see if flying pig is a sock puppet rather than EDL/pie and mash please?


----------



## Citizen66 (Oct 2, 2015)

editor said:


> Woooargh! That goes right against our rules. No more please.



Buying people drinks against board rules?


----------



## 8den (Oct 2, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> because they're gentrifying cunts.
> 
> next.



But why. It's not because they don't pay their staff above minimum wage. Is it because of the product they sell at the price they sell it. 

Please explain why these "cunts" deserve singling out over other businesses in the area


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Oct 2, 2015)

Please say it aint true that some Class War person tweeted something trying to compare smashing up a cereal cafe to the anti apartheid struggle.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 2, 2015)

8den said:


> But why. It's not because they don't pay their staff above minimum wage. Is it because of the product they sell at the price they sell it.
> 
> Please explain why these "cunts" deserve singling out over other businesses in the area


i wouldn't say singling out, i would say that they are more prominent than some of the other businesses i find equally repugnant in the brick lane area. see for example the thread devoted to their nefandous gentrifying business.


----------



## cesare (Oct 2, 2015)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> Please say it aint true that some Class War person tweeted something trying to compare smashing up a cereal cafe to the anti apartheid struggle.


Produce this tweet


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 2, 2015)

And let's have the dog-kicking stuff as well.


----------



## cesare (Oct 2, 2015)

butchersapron said:


> And let's have the dog-kicking stuff as well.


They're just making shit up now.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 2, 2015)

cesare said:


> They're just making shit up now.


You kicked a dog in that enviroment then you really would be in trouble - far more than the two bosses.


----------



## cesare (Oct 2, 2015)

butchersapron said:


> You kicked a dog in that enviroment then you really would be in trouble - far more than the two bosses.



The bosses also saying that they weren't even there at the time as well, so all this fucking made-up crap about them being attacked because of their appearance is more lies.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 2, 2015)

cesare said:


> The bosses also saying that they weren't even there at the time as well, so all this fucking made-up crap about them being attacked because of their appearance is more lies.


if it does happen it will likely be because of their uncanny resemblance to the unspeakable lost prophets singer.


----------



## cesare (Oct 2, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> if it does happen it will likely be because of their uncanny resemblance to the unspeakable lost prophets singer.


I'd never noticed that before!


----------



## cesare (Oct 2, 2015)




----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 2, 2015)

cesare said:


>



dr?


----------



## cesare (Oct 2, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> dr?


Yes, she was given an honorary doctorate somewhere so is making sure she incorporates the title/status in an ironic way of course.


----------



## Celyn (Oct 2, 2015)

She got an honorary doctorate from somewhere apparently, and has taken to calling herself "Dr".


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 2, 2015)

Wow. Another thing i read wrong. What's happened to me!!!


----------



## belboid (Oct 2, 2015)

cesare said:


> Produce this tweet


*Lisa Mckenzie* ‏@redrumlisa  Sep 27Poplar, London
Suffragettes were accused of terrorism, so was Mandela. Direct actions from those most affected. Get off your high horses #fuckparade

Not really making the comparison claimed


----------



## Celyn (Oct 2, 2015)

Oops. Snap!

I don't think they can really need much money to clean some paint off. I wonder whether Jack Monroe hasn't read up on the story or whether she's trying to become part of it to gain publicity.  A bit odd.


----------



## cesare (Oct 2, 2015)

Bit odd that she's famous for showing everyone how to survive on poached germs but supporting massively overpriced cereal bar. Plus she's surely well off enough now to just send them a bottle of cillit bang or something.


----------



## cesare (Oct 2, 2015)

More snaps


----------



## cesare (Oct 2, 2015)

belboid said:


> *Lisa Mckenzie* ‏@redrumlisa  Sep 27Poplar, London
> Suffragettes were accused of terrorism, so was Mandela. Direct actions from those most affected. Get off your high horses #fuckparade
> 
> Not really making the comparison claimed


Well, quite.


----------



## Celyn (Oct 2, 2015)

cesare said:


> More snaps



with crackles and pops!  (Milk extra)


----------



## cesare (Oct 2, 2015)

Celyn said:


> with crackles and pops!  (Spilled Milk extra)



CFY


----------



## marty21 (Oct 2, 2015)

cesare said:


> The perspective is skewed, eh. It's not news that RTB has resulted in ex-council properties ending up in the hands of private landlords and Tower Hamlets has suffered a lot from that (there was a report released about 18 months ago called " From Right to Buy to Buy to Let" and it showed that ~50% of TH's RTB homes had ended up that way.) But RTB has been around since the 80s, it's not a sudden phenomena. It's not the fault of the displaced that RTB didn't provide for replacement housing stock - the original wave of those buying their properties didn't even know that at the time. It's not the fault of the displaced that TH didn't have covenants preventing RTB properties to be let through the private sector. It's not the fault of the displaced that TH didn't have a right not to sell if not in the community interest. Etc. I've already provided a link that not only defines gentrification but also sets out the 4 stage gentrification process. No-one's inventing the wheel by describing gentrification, the process has been shown over and over again since the 60s. What's new is the denial of gentrification coupled with not being able to differentiate between regeneration (in the proper sense, not the aka gentrification sense used by local councillors and developers) and actual gentrification.


 When the Tories increased the RTB discounts in 2010, they claimed that for every home sold, a new one would be built, I read a report recently that the actual figure is 1 new home built for every 12 sold (can't remember where I read it now so no link - my bad)

Now Tories have targetted Housing Associations and they are rolling over and I think the big players will introduce a voluntary RTB scheme to avoid being made public bodies - apparently they have a cast iron agreement with the government that it will be 1:1 , one built for every one sold 

Plus Councils are expected to help fund the HA RTB by selling their larger properties in more lucrative areas - basically London.

Working in the sector I speak to people most days who are overcrowded and see no chance of actually getting a place big enough for their families, and I'm not talking about huge families, just a 3 bed would be enough for most of them. Under RTB the bigger places were more popular so this new policy will reduce them still further

luckily in a way, the high prices in London make it difficult for tenants on average income to actually buy their homes - In the central London Boroughs you have council places worth up to a million, so a £75k or £100k discount is not going to help someone on an average income very much. So the Tories think of another wheeze, which i think is connected with the high house prices - force the Councils to sell their larger properties to part fund the HA sell off of properties - if ordinary tenants can't afford the london prices then rich folk can


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 2, 2015)

marty21 said:


> luckily in a way, the high prices in London make it difficult for tenants on average income to actually buy their homes - In the central London Boroughs you have council places worth up to a million, so a £75k or £100k discount is not going to help someone on an average income very much. So the Tories think of another wheeze, which i think is connected with the high house prices - force the Councils to sell their larger properties to part fund the HA sell off of properties - if ordinary tenants can't afford the london prices then rich folk can



A list of these wheezes you've spotted in your professional career would be very useful marty.


----------



## Citizen66 (Oct 2, 2015)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> Please say it aint true that some Class War person tweeted something trying to compare smashing up a cereal cafe to the anti apartheid struggle.



Dunt no were did u fine this?


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Oct 2, 2015)

"repairs"  

clean a bit of paint off.


----------



## cesare (Oct 2, 2015)

See also "riot"


----------



## belboid (Oct 2, 2015)

Fozzie Bear said:


> "repairs"
> 
> clean a bit of paint off.


and a new pair of undeprants


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Oct 2, 2015)

belboid said:


> and a new pair of undeprants





These are people from Belfast?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 2, 2015)

The Flying Pig said:


> I have deduced that the gang of five who try to bully and intimidate people on this forum are one and the same person. Most probably a troll or undercover old bill, an agent provocateur or just bored old grumpy git sitting at home with nothing better to do. Either way I am going out in the real world to do something constructive, something that is somewhat different to the search and destroy mentality of some of the gang of five.


We're all a bored Welsh schoolteacher with sociopathic tendencies'


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 2, 2015)

pocketscience said:


> A lot of self employed and small business owners would argue the same thing.
> 
> Why do you keep going on about the means of production yet you deride the issue of private housing (paricularly RTB) over social housing, on a thread about gentrification?
> Social cleansing through social housing reduction has  been mentioned. Now it's taboo to ask if home-owners, particularly those that partook in the rush to buy cheep council gaffs, could be targeted by CW as well?



RTB has nothing *directly* to do with gentrification. It's merely a conduit through which some former social housing becomes a draw (through pricing) into areas, but it's hardly the only conduit.
As for your emotive whine about a rush to buy, there never was one. By the time people realised that there was money to be made, the tenant discounts had been reduced by half or more - the 80% discounts for tenants with over 35 years' tenure ran for about 5 years in the '80s - and RTB sales have mostly been a slow, steady erosion. I've been watching RTB since 1980, and social cleansing is a relatively news phenomenon that's currently more tied in with private rental prices than to do with RTB. The true blame lies with Ridley & Jenkins suggesting binning one on one replacement of RTBed homes, and Thatcher biting.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 2, 2015)

8den said:


> I'm going on Bones comments. Ive not seen the statement from class war. To clarify why hasn't CKC worked well with the local community?



Colour me cynical, but given the average w/c wage in TH, the Keary bros can't be accused of being inclusive with their pricing.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 2, 2015)

8den said:


> ...seem to be talking about gentrification we seem to be talking about class war.



class war, as opposed to Class War, is the logical end-game, with regard to gentrification.


----------



## cesare (Oct 2, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> Colour me cynical, but given the average w/c wage in TH, the Keary bros can't be accused of being inclusive with their pricing.


It's possible to be completely unaware of the social deprivation in TH. The brothers can walk from Shoreditch Overground to their café without going anywhere near anything much to jog their attention. Child poverty for half the children living in TH? Not the ones in our café.


----------



## marty21 (Oct 2, 2015)

When I worked for a Housing Association in West London years ago , I spoke to one of the old guys who'd worked for them since the 70s . They regenerated Notting Hill /Bayswater in the late 60s/early 70s , buying up shitty properties previously owned by Rachman and Rachman-like landlords . They did the properties up , rented them to local families at affordable rents  eventually after a while people began to see improvements and realised these houses were actually rather good and started buying as well , prices soared thanks in part to the various Housing Associations in the area. By the 90s when I was there I was regularly being called by private owners complaining about how our tenants were behaving badly   they probably weren't having dinner parties and that  the new generation of owners didn't like the fact that there was social housing in their street  atm this is still the case in many 'desirable ' areas in London  but this is likely to change over the next 5 years and maybe forever


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Oct 2, 2015)

When the wc are finally driven out of the capital to find affordable accommodation elsewhere, how will the capital function without wc workers?


----------



## Lurdan (Oct 2, 2015)

Mr.Bishie said:


> When the wc are finally driven out of the capital to find affordable accommodation elsewhere, how will the capital function without wc workers?


That's easy - sanction them in their outer dormitories until they agree to travel hours every day for a minimum wage job, or failing that hoverbus some new ones in.

However back here in reality this is just a trend - it can never be fully achieved or anything close to that, not least because, amongst other problems, the cunts forgot to build the townships to move us to, and their nimby chums now won't let them.


----------



## smokedout (Oct 2, 2015)

cesare said:


>




I hate to say it ...


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Oct 2, 2015)

I'd missed that. Fuckin nora.


----------



## 8den (Oct 2, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> Colour me cynical, but given the average w/c wage in TH, the Keary bros can't be accused of being inclusive with their pricing.



There are plenty of other businesses in that area selling imported vinyl and clothes that are out of the reaches of w/c wages so I don't see why the cereal cafe should be targeted for the price of its goods.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 2, 2015)

If you're poor, you're effectively excluded from half the business in your area wherever you live. If only poor people live in your area, half the shops will be empty. Used to be a depressing sight around many estates in London - a row of shop spaces, mostly closed up, with an offie and a bookies the only ones still going.


----------



## pocketscience (Oct 2, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> RTB has nothing *directly* to do with gentrification. It's merely a conduit through which some former social housing becomes a draw (through pricing) into areas, but it's hardly the only conduit.
> *As for your emotive whine about a rush to buy, there never was one.*



In the 80s over 400 council houses were falling into private ownership per day for 10 years! It dropped to 380 per day during the nineties.
200,000 council homes gone in 1982 alone. Over 500 per day 
So I don't know what constitutes a "rush" in your book, but I find that a lot of people buying council homes in a short space of time.



ViolentPanda said:


> By the time people realised that there was money to be made, the tenant discounts had been reduced by half or more - the 80% discounts for tenants with over 35 years' tenure ran for about 5 years in the '80s - and RTB sales have mostly been a slow, steady erosion.



But they gradually opened the criteria up so that virtually any council resident could buy which kept the sales at a steady flow through until the end of the 90s.
Buy that time the property bubble was in full swing. Old council places particularly in inner city London* were vastly undervalued so those discounts were all the more irrelevant.
Any imbecile could see that a dilapidated 3 bedroom council house for 70K in Bermondsey was going to be worth 5-10 times that value in a few years regardless of what % the discount was.


ViolentPanda said:


> I've been watching RTB since 1980, and social cleansing is a relatively news phenomenon that's currently more tied in with private rental prices than to do with RTB. The true blame lies with Ridley & Jenkins suggesting binning one on one replacement of RTBed homes, and Thatcher biting.



WADR I grew up living it on the front line throughout the 80s. We were bungled from one condemned council estate to the next during the 80s by southwark and lewisham councils.
I was constantly being dragged along to council tenants association meetings as a nipper
When we finally got a decent offer in '85, on an estate in lewisham that wasn't already in the demolition planning phase, it turned out we were the the only council tenants bar an OAP over the road. Everyone (literally hundreds of homes) had bought in. My old man's still there, still pays his rent to the council.



ViolentPanda said:


> RTB has nothing *directly* to do with gentrification.




The lack of quality affordable housing is surely the main issue caused by gentrification for residents of an area that's being attacked by it. Abundant council housing, or at least social housing with e.g rent caps, ensures a resistance to gentrification.

It's all the more relevant on this thread as well because it was the "working class" that did the selling out for their own financial gains. That, in the grand scheme of things, puts into context the hate on "owning the means of production" because you're a proud working class lad (I'm picturing a sparky with his very own screwdriver and multi-meter here), and the two twats selling bowls of cereal as being small fish frying.


----------



## pocketscience (Oct 2, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> Now tell everyone about you.


fairynuff.
tenant (rent-capped social housing)


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 2, 2015)

I can't agree at all that rtb has nothing directly to do with gentrification. These things take time to feed through. People who bought perhaps 20 years ago may only be selling and moving out now - retiring to the coast, or Spain or Jamaica or wherever. And they are not replaced by people from their economic bracket. Their homes are bought by people who are mostly nothing like their own children, who could never afford to buy the place. That's a simple replacement of one social class by another whose direct cause is rtb. rtb isn't the only cause of this process (many people who bought privately in the 70s and 80s are retiring now and selling up to people who are far richer than they were when they bought) but it has most certainly made it many degrees worse. And unaffordable housing is _the_ driver of gentrification. That's without even factoring in the number of ex-council houses that are now being rented out privately for enormously inflated rents.


----------



## cesare (Oct 3, 2015)

Here's a link to the report I mentioned "From Right to Buy to Buy to Let" January 2014

http://tomcopley.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/From-Right-to-Buy-to-Buy-to-Let-Jan-2014.pdf


----------



## kabbes (Oct 3, 2015)

8den said:


> There are plenty of other businesses in that area selling imported vinyl and clothes that are out of the reaches of w/c wages so I don't see why the cereal cafe should be targeted for the price of its goods.


I think the difference between ck and other cafes and shops is that it reeks of irony.  Nobody thinks that cereal is actually some kind of treat or object of connoisseurship or epicurean delight.  Remove irony from the experience and you're not left with much.  But sometimes there is a fine line between irony and taking the piss; I can totally see how people struggling to survive might feel this venture tips into the latter.


----------



## 8den (Oct 3, 2015)

kabbes said:


> I think the difference between ck and other cafes and shops is that it reeks of irony.  Nobody thinks that cereal is actually some kind of treat or object of connoisseurship or epicurean delight.  Remove irony from the experience and you're not left with much.  But sometimes there is a fine line between irony and taking the piss; I can totally see how people struggling to survive might feel this venture tips into the latter.



Thank you that's just about the only plausible reason I've heard to explain why the cereal cafe was targeted while other businesses were left alone. 

However targeting businesses because you don't like then can't be the basis for a political campaign and yet that appears to be Class Wars plan based on the "success" of this action*

*Class War seem to be measuring success on the fact that people are talking about this action and Class War not the issue of gentrification.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 3, 2015)

Who had their Windows smashed? Someone did in this single target attack. Lazy people.


----------



## kabbes (Oct 3, 2015)

8den said:


> Thank you that's just about the only plausible reason I've heard to explain why the cereal cafe was targeted while other businesses were left alone.
> 
> However targeting businesses because you don't like then can't be the basis for a political campaign and yet that appears to be Class Wars plan based on the "success" of this action*
> 
> *Class War seem to be measuring success on the fact that people are talking about this action and Class War not the issue of gentrification.


It can be the basis of a campaign if your campaign message is "do what we don't like and we will target you".


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 3, 2015)

kabbes said:


> It can be the basis of a campaign if your campaign message is "do what we don't like and we will target you".


Like the nazis or jim crow.


----------



## kabbes (Oct 3, 2015)

butchersapron said:


> Like the nazis or jim crow.


Or the Tory or Labour governments.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 3, 2015)

kabbes said:


> Or the Tory or Labour governments.


Why on earth reduce the richness of responses to the many forms that gentrification takes to  "do what we don't like and we will target you" - and why choose to post it in terms that strive to make that ridiculous characterisation appear neutral when it's quite clearly very hostile and condescending?


----------



## kabbes (Oct 3, 2015)

butchersapron said:


> Why on earth reduce the richness of responses to the many forms that gentrification takes to  "do what we don't like and we will target you" - and why choose to post it in terms that strive to make that ridiculous characterisation appear neutral when it's quite clearly very hostile and condescending?


I don't think I was doing that at all.  I was merely pointing out that (one reason) targeting things you don't like can be a legitimate strategy is if your message is that you intend to target things you don't like.

Personally, I see things like the Class War demonstration more as an inevitable response to inexorable gentrification.  If you push people and push them and push them, eventually that will find a release valve.  What we've seen so far is nothing -- a broken estate agent window and some paint.  As long as inequality carries on growing, escalation of response is inevitable and there's no point those doing alright out of the system complaining about that fact.


----------



## cesare (Oct 3, 2015)

kabbes said:


> It can be the basis of a campaign if your campaign message is "do what we don't like and we will target you".


It was a street party. The response to a broken estate agent's window, and some paint on this cereal bar I.e. just some minor inconvenience, has been utterly disproportionate. More newsworthy than the malnourished kids a few streets away.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 3, 2015)

kabbes said:


> I don't think I was doing that at all.  I was merely pointing out that (one reason) targeting things you don't like can be a legitimate strategy is if your message is that you intend to target things you don't like.
> 
> Personally, I see things like the Class War demonstration more as an inevitable response to inexorable gentrification.  If you push people and push them and push them, eventually that will find a release valve.  What we've seen so far is nothing -- a broken estate agent window and some paint.  As long as inequality carries on growing, escalation of response is inevitable and there's no point those doing alright out of the system complaining about that fact.


Oh leave off, your only interventions on the thread have been to establish a hierarchy of who is to be taken seriously, whose to be bothered with. And the supporters of the action are right at the bottom - you spell out that other posters are not to bother with them. This is despite those supporters spending page after page outlining the general and specific motivations and tearing down lies and assumptions about both the action and what propelled it. After pages of the most sick-making liberal hand-wringing this sort of pretend neutrality and objectivity is rather annoying. Nothing personal, but...fucking hell.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 3, 2015)

I look forward to those proponents of _revolution is the only solution - anything short of that is a sell out/ counterproductive_ arguing this position across the many other threads they contribute to. I'm sure they'll be totally consistent on this.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 3, 2015)

8den said:


> Thank you that's just about the only plausible reason I've heard to explain why the cereal cafe was targeted while other businesses were left alone.
> 
> However targeting businesses because you don't like then can't be the basis for a political campaign and yet that appears to be Class Wars plan based on the "success" of this action*
> 
> *Class War seem to be measuring success on the fact that people are talking about this action and Class War not the issue of gentrification.


so you missed the estate agent's window getting put through.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 3, 2015)

8den said:


> Thank you that's just about the only plausible reason I've heard to explain why the cereal cafe was targeted while other businesses were left alone.
> 
> However targeting businesses because you don't like then can't be the basis for a political campaign and yet that appears to be Class Wars plan based on the "success" of this action*
> 
> *Class War seem to be measuring success on the fact that people are talking about this action and Class War not the issue of gentrification.


targeting businesses because you don't like them can be a basis of a political campaign. see eg london greenpeace v mcdonalds. i don't know why you say things which are obviously stupid.


----------



## kabbes (Oct 3, 2015)

butchersapron said:


> Oh leave off, your only interventions on the thread have been to establish a hierarchy of who is to be taken seriously, whose to be bothered with. And the supporters of the action are right at the bottom - you spell out that other posters are not to bother with them. This is despite those supporters spending page after page outlining the general and specific motivations and tearing down lies and assumptions about both the action and what propelled it. After pages of the most sick-making liberal hand-wringing this sort of pretend neutrality and objectivity is rather annoying. Nothing personal, but...fucking hell.


Then I didn't explain myself properly.  Not surprising, I've actually said very little on this thread.

My intention was not to present a hierarchy or suggest that anybody isn't to be taken seriously.  Just the reverse, really.  I've only been trying to point out that if you are angry with what happened, that's probably an intended part of the point.  The medium is the message, as somebody else said earlier.


----------



## 8den (Oct 3, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> targeting businesses because you don't like them can be a basis of a political campaign. see eg london greenpeace v mcdonalds. i don't know why you say things which are obviously stupid.


 green peace's reasons for objecting to mc Donald's were slightly more nuanced than disliking mc Donald's.

Idiot.


----------



## cesare (Oct 3, 2015)

London. London Greenpeace.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 3, 2015)

8den said:


> green peace's reasons for objecting to mc Donald's were slightly more nuanced than disliking mc Donald's.
> 
> Idiot.


i've known dave morris for 25 years, i think i know something of the case.


----------



## 8den (Oct 3, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> i've known dave morris for 25 years, i think i know something of the case.



Well if you've known him so long you'd know the mc libel trial was slightly more complex


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 3, 2015)

8den said:


> Well if you've known him so long you'd know the mc libel trial was slightly more complex


why bring up the trial? i remember, and i am sure many other posters remember, policd protecting mcds on demos in the 90s and mcds being attacked rather morr forcefully than happened to the ckc eg on j18


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 3, 2015)

anyone know why it's not fashionable to trash Mcds these days?


----------



## cesare (Oct 3, 2015)

The39thStep said:


> anyone know why it's not fashionable to trash Mcds these days?


Fashionable?


----------



## cesare (Oct 3, 2015)

But in answer to the question, I imagine that even though McLibel was a public relations failure for McDonalds the tenacity and intimidation has had a deterrent effect.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Oct 3, 2015)

The39thStep said:


> anyone know why it's not fashionable to trash Mcds these days?



The decline of militant animal rights would be my guess.


----------



## cesare (Oct 3, 2015)

Fozzie Bear said:


> The decline of militant animal rights would be my guess.


They've also cleaned up their act on ethically sourced ingredients etc


----------



## 8den (Oct 3, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> why bring up the trial? i remember, and i am sure many other posters remember, policd protecting mcds on demos in the 90s and mcds being attacked rather morr forcefully than happened to the ckc eg on j18



I brought up the trial because it's the action Morris is connected with.

And you brought your "good mate" Morris


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 3, 2015)

cesare said:


> It's possible to be completely unaware of the social deprivation in TH. The brothers can walk from Shoreditch Overground to their café without going anywhere near anything much to jog their attention. Child poverty for half the children living in TH? Not the ones in our café.


Yep, it's possible to be unaware - if you're the sort of person who actively ignores anything that offends your sense of comfort.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 3, 2015)

Mr.Bishie14142524 said:
			
		

> When the wc are finally driven out of the capital to find affordable accommodation elsewhere, how will the capital function without wc workers?



Two "solutions", bish. Neither of which favours the working class: Either a system that buses workers from " dormitory" camps, or the reinstatement of live-in servitude in some cases.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 3, 2015)

8den said:


> There are plenty of other businesses in that area selling imported vinyl and clothes that are out of the reaches of w/c wages so I don't see why the cereal cafe should be targeted for the price of its goods.


Then you have no understanding of human emotional motivation.


----------



## 8den (Oct 3, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> Then you have no understanding of human emotional motivation.



No I do. I think targeted the cereal cafe because you think the owners and customers are dickheads is a bloody stupid reason for a political action. And getting excited because it generated column inches is fucking stupid too.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 3, 2015)

littlebabyjesus said:


> If you're poor, you're effectively excluded from half the business in your area wherever you live. If only poor people live in your area, half the shops will be empty. Used to be a depressing sight around many estates in London - a row of shop spaces, mostly closed up, with an offie and a bookies the only ones still going.


Did you get that from ringing dial-a-cliche? Less than a quarter of estates in Greater London ever had retail outlets on them, and most of them were screwed from day one because local authorities charged high rents.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 3, 2015)

8den said:


> No I do. I think targeted the cereal cafe because you think the owners and customers are dickheads is a bloody stupid reason for a political action. And getting excited because it generated column inches is fucking stupid too.



Like I said, no understanding.


----------



## 8den (Oct 3, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> Like I said, no understanding.



Then clearly the people trying to justify this action are doing a piss poor job of it.


----------



## cesare (Oct 3, 2015)

8den said:


> No I do. I think targeted the cereal cafe because you think the owners and customers are dickheads is a bloody stupid reason for a political action. And getting excited because it generated column inches is fucking stupid too.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 3, 2015)

8den said:


> I brought up the trial because it's the action Morris is connected with.
> 
> And you brought your "good mate" Morris


i was thinking rather more of the pre-trial campaign - you do know there was an anti-mcds campaign before the trial? have you in fact heatd of the 'what's wrong with mcdonalds' leaflet? do you know what you're talking about? - at lrast to the last we know the answer's a resounding 'no'.


----------



## 8den (Oct 3, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> i was thinking rather more of the pre-trial campaign - you do know there was an anti-mcds campaign before the trial? have you in fact heatd of the 'what's wrong with mcdonalds' leaflet? do you know what you're talking about? - at lrast to the last we know the answer's a resounding 'no'.



I imagine there would have had to be a pre trial anti mc Donald's campaign to justify mc Donald's suing them for libel. 

You come off as a patronising obnoxious bullying arsehole.

And yes I am aware of the Mc libel campaign. Green peaces anti mc Donald's campaign ranged from the poor conditions of Mc Donald's Livestock. Amazon deforestation, workers Rights and a variety of other issues. 

Like I said comparing McLibel to trashing a cafe because the owners are hipsters wankers is a real stretch.


----------



## cesare (Oct 3, 2015)

It wasn't Greenpeace. It was London Greenpeace.


----------



## cesare (Oct 3, 2015)

The cafe wasn't trashed.


----------



## cesare (Oct 3, 2015)

Christ.


----------



## 8den (Oct 3, 2015)

cesare said:


> It wasn't Greenpeace. It was London Greenpeace.



Talk to Pickmans he brought Greenpeace into it. And he's a pedant fucker and his Besty buddy was central to it he should have known better.


----------



## cesare (Oct 3, 2015)

8den said:


> Talk to Pickmans he brought Greenpeace into it. And he's a pedant fucker and his Besty buddy was central to it he should have known better.


He didn't bring Greenpeace into it. Greenpeace has got nothing to do with London Greenpeace.


----------



## stethoscope (Oct 3, 2015)

8den said:


> Talk to Pickmans he brought Greenpeace into it. And he's a pedant fucker and his Besty buddy was central to it he should have known better.



No he said London Greenpeace. And it's you that keeps hyping up what didn't happen despite also saying above "getting excited because it generated column inches is fucking stupid too". Only people doing that are the liberals 'outraged' by the cafe being targeted.

Jesus


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 3, 2015)

cesare said:


> Fashionable?



Well popular then. They seemed to be always getting trashed when there was a demo. I always used to have to have to sit in sight of a window when I was having a bite in there in order to see if there were any crusty types congregating outside. Just don't see them these days.


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 3, 2015)

cesare said:


> They've also cleaned up their act on ethically sourced ingredients etc


And reduced their prices


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 3, 2015)

I'm honestly baffled how some people seem not to understand at all why the cereal cafe was a target—if an opportunistic one, it wasn't in any plans or anything afaik—and a very very good one. I joked about it earlier but it's like wondering why "Champagne & Fromage" was a target in Brixton. Also there are so many dumb blog articles saying "why oh why would anyone have a go at the cereal cafe let's talk about gentrification".


----------



## cesare (Oct 3, 2015)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I'm honestly baffled how some people seem not to understand at all why the cereal cafe was a target—if an opportunistic one, it wasn't in any plans or anything afaik—and a very very good one. I joked about it earlier but it's like wondering why "Champagne & Fromage" was a target in Brixton. Also there are so many dumb blog articles saying "why oh why would anyone have a go at the cereal cafe let's talk about gentrification".



Equivalent of the greasy spoon for the well heeled + lack of awareness, I suppose. Some people just don't get that "well everyone's done a day trip to X" (for example) will generate a sharp intake of breath/massive cringe. They just don't appreciate how far their day to day trivial pleasures are from people struggling to survive.


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 3, 2015)

The39thStep said:


> And reduced their prices


the 99p menu has fallen drastically in range and I can't remember the last time there was a deal voucher on the back of my bus ticket. Don't be fooled by the clowns new wraps and real meat. Still slyly hiking the prices for the classics back up to the bad old days.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 3, 2015)

cesare said:


> Equivalent of the greasy spoon for the well heeled + lack of awareness, I suppose. Some people just don't get that "well everyone's done a day trip to X" (for example) will generate a sharp intake of breath/massive cringe. They just don't appreciate how far their day to day trivial pleasures are from people struggling to survive.


The thing is though that the cereal café's whole point is that it's massively vacuous novelty bullshit. I mean, everybody knows this, it's their whole strategy, to be the most massively vacuous piece of novelty bullshit in the area, and they've done well—it's a tough market round there but I have to say they've managed it. The fact that anyone knows about it at all is down to that. Some people might find that funny (and it would be funny in a more neutral context, sure) but they know it's bullshit all the same.

So honestly not understanding why targetting the most massively vacuous piece of novelty bullshit in an area, in the context of a protest about people being pushed out of their homes because of the random desires of richer people... well, you have to not appreciate that the whole basis of the café is that it's bullshit (despite that being clearly the point of it) and/or you have to not appreciate or accept that the protest has any point to it at all (despite them repeatedly talking about that point and also Class War having a long history of protesting about it there).

And even if you don't appreciate one or both of those things, it's undeniable that it's brought loads of publicity to a protest that would otherwise have had little or no airtime/twittertime.


----------



## kabbes (Oct 3, 2015)

Oh sure, like it when _he_ says it.


----------



## cesare (Oct 3, 2015)

FridgeMagnet said:


> The thing is though that the cereal café's whole point is that it's massively vacuous novelty bullshit. I mean, everybody knows this, it's their whole strategy, to be the most massively vacuous piece of novelty bullshit in the area, and they've done well—it's a tough market round there but I have to say they've managed it. The fact that anyone knows about it at all is down to that. Some people might find that funny (and it would be funny in a more neutral context, sure) but they know it's bullshit all the same.
> 
> So honestly not understanding why targetting the most massively vacuous piece of novelty bullshit in an area, in the context of a protest about people being pushed out of their homes because of the random desires of richer people... well, you have to not appreciate that the whole basis of the café is that it's bullshit (despite that being clearly the point of it) and/or you have to not appreciate or accept that the protest has any point to it at all (despite them repeatedly talking about that point and also Class War having a long history of protesting about it there).
> 
> And even if you don't appreciate one or both of those things, it's undeniable that it's brought massive publicity to a protest that would otherwise have had little or no airtime/twittertime.



I agree. But that doesn't explain the liberal outrage - assuming it's genuine outrage. I was offering an explanation for genuine outrage. But if it's not genuine outrage then you have to draw the conclusion that they're hyping it up and milking it for all it's worth and getting their journalist mates to do the same, to milk every drop of profit from it.


----------



## cesare (Oct 3, 2015)

kabbes said:


> Oh sure, like it when _he_ says it.


What?


----------



## free spirit (Oct 3, 2015)

so class war is now to just be about PR stunts against stuff they consider the be vacuous shit?

Sounds kinda fun, but also a wee bit limited in political terms.... but then I guess that's class war all over.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 3, 2015)

cesare said:


> What?


He's mocking himself.


----------



## cesare (Oct 3, 2015)

free spirit said:


> so class war is now to just be about PR stunts against stuff they consider the be vacuous shit?
> 
> Sounds kinda fun, but also a wee bit limited in political terms.... but then I guess that's class war all over.


No-one's going to forget you saying that displaced people have brought it on themselves anytime soon.


----------



## free spirit (Oct 3, 2015)

cesare said:


> No-one's going to forget you saying that displaced people have brought it on themselves anytime soon.


I think you've got me confused with someone else.


----------



## cesare (Oct 3, 2015)

free spirit said:


> 36% of right to buy housing in London is now private rented, as those who bought the houses chose to take the profits and run, leaving others now to pay far higher rents to private landlords for the same house probably in a worse condition than those still owned by the council.
> 
> So while they didn't directly exploit people for that profit, others are now suffering as a result of their profiteering.


Not the fault of the government or local authority, but the fault of people in council housing that were "profiteering" eh.


----------



## Nice one (Oct 3, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> i was thinking rather more of the pre-trial campaign - you do know there was an anti-mcds campaign before the trial? have you in fact heatd of the 'what's wrong with mcdonalds' leaflet? do you know what you're talking about? - at lrast to the last we know the answer's a resounding 'no'.



Would this be the leaflet cowritten by the undercover copper?


----------



## free spirit (Oct 3, 2015)

cesare said:


> Not the fault of the government or local authority, but the fault of people in council housing that were "profiteering" eh.


where did I say it wasn't the fault of the government or local authority?

But yes, those who've bought at a massive discount, then flogged it on to btl landlords at a massive profit and fucked off out of the area should also share some of the blame IMO for those areas losing their affordable council housing and the working class being priced out as a result. I'd be interested to know why you'd think they shouldn't.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 3, 2015)

Nice one said:


> Would this be the leaflet cowritten by the undercover copper?


yeh. well, we didn't know that until recently.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 3, 2015)

8den said:


> Talk to Pickmans he brought Greenpeace into it. And he's a pedant fucker and his Besty buddy was central to it he should have known better.


i didn't bring greenpeace into it, i mentioned LONDON greenpeace. don't blame me if you're ignorant of the difference.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 3, 2015)

8den said:


> I imagine there would have had to be a pre trial anti mc Donald's campaign to justify mc Donald's suing them for libel.
> 
> You come off as a patronising obnoxious bullying arsehole.
> 
> ...


i didn't compare mclibel to trashing a cafe. YOU said it was impossible to have a political campaign based on targeting a business. do you remember that? so i offered an example of a political campaign targeting a business. 

the only reason you think i'm coming across as patronising, obnoxious and bullying is because you don't always listen when people speak softly and then  they have to shout to get you to acknowledge the point, and even then, as here, you don't fucking get it because your a shitferbrains twat.


----------



## LDC (Oct 3, 2015)

The39thStep said:


> Well popular then. They seemed to be always getting trashed when there was a demo. I always used to have to have to sit in sight of a window when I was having a bite in there in order to see if there were any crusty types congregating outside. Just don't see them these days.



IMO it happens less now more due to the fact that in those years larger demos happened, and these tended to have a element that was able to trash windows under the cover of a larger mass, and of course McDonalds was a clear symbol of the corporate face of globalization that lots of these demos were (in part) about.

As someone said at the time, breaking McDonalds windows was the '90s equivalent of burning the US flag.

As well as that I think there's other issues to do with animal rights being a more significant part of the radical political scene then than it is now, and hopefully a maturing of the attitudes around being simplistically critical of the lifestyle politics that also McDonalds in part represented.


----------



## LDC (Oct 3, 2015)

Nice one said:


> Would this be the leaflet cowritten by the undercover copper?



And your point is...?


----------



## cesare (Oct 3, 2015)

Nice one said:


> Would this be the leaflet cowritten by the undercover copper?


Like they should have been aware of that at the time, you mean?


----------



## cesare (Oct 3, 2015)

free spirit said:


> where did I say it wasn't the fault of the government or local authority?
> 
> But yes, those who've bought at a massive discount, then flogged it on to btl landlords at a massive profit and fucked off out of the area should also share some of the blame IMO for those areas losing their affordable council housing and the working class being priced out as a result. I'd be interested to know why you'd think they shouldn't.


You didn't say. That's the point. You just point your finger at people in council houses that exercised their right to buy whilst concurrently not commenting on other gentrification factors. And also complaining like fuck about small businesses getting targeted.


----------



## Nice one (Oct 3, 2015)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> And your point is...?



No especial point. If someone's asking someone else if they've read a leaflet just wanted to make sure it was the same leaflet.


----------



## free spirit (Oct 3, 2015)

cesare said:


> You didn't say. That's the point. You just point your finger at people in council houses that exercised their right to buy whilst concurrently not commenting on other gentrification factors. And also complaining like fuck about small businesses getting targeted.


Sorry I didn't write a full essay on all the aspects of the situation, but I've written enough about it in the past that I really didn't think it was necessary when attempting to make a specific point about one aspect of the situation.
eg


free spirit said:


> Of course it was ideological, why else would Thatcher specifically prevent councils from using the income from council house sales to build new council houses, and why were councils prevented from borrowing new money themselves to build new council houses?
> 
> None of that was economic, it was purely ideological, the ideology being that the public sectors should neither build or own / operate affordable housing themselves, and that by removing the public sector from this sector it would open up a whole new economic space for the private sector to step into and make money out of.
> 
> Only once you exclude the potential for actual public housing build by and for the public sector does your post apply.



so no I don't just point the finger at people in council houses who exercise their right to buy, I just didn't attempt to outline the entire situation in one bb post.

Now, do you agree that those who actually did profiteer in this way must share some responsibility for this situation, or are they merely blameless victims who had no option but to buy their homes at a big discount then flog them at a big profit to btl landlords who then re-let the same houses at a vastly higher rents?


----------



## cesare (Oct 3, 2015)

This is like poor Assange, and poor football rapist, all over again.


----------



## free spirit (Oct 3, 2015)

cesare said:


> This is like poor Assange, and poor football rapist, all over again.


you used to be a poster worth debating with. It's a shame you've descended to this bollocks of late.


----------



## cesare (Oct 3, 2015)

free spirit said:


> you used to be a poster worth debating with. It's a shame you've descended to this bollocks of late.


Your good opinion means less than nothing to me. You weasel your way out of every unpleasant stance you take. And what's worse, you can't do it succinctly.


----------



## free spirit (Oct 3, 2015)

cesare said:


> Your good opinion means less than nothing to me. You weasel your way out of every unpleasant stance you take. And what's worse, you can't do it succinctly.


whereas you just misinterpret anything said to mean what you want it to mean.

I note your reluctance to debate the point being made.


----------



## cesare (Oct 3, 2015)

free spirit said:


> whereas you just misinterpret anything said to mean what you want it to mean.
> 
> I note your reluctance to debate the point being made.


Your point is to make sure that individuals are blamed for state policy. That people's attention is distracted to blaming WC individuals concurrently with making the case for small business owners. So, no. I've got no interest in your apportioning of blame to the WC and those that fight back, and I think you're contemptible.


----------



## free spirit (Oct 3, 2015)

cesare said:


> Your point is to make sure that individuals are blamed for state policy. That people's attention is distracted to blaming WC individuals concurrently with making the case for small business owners. So, no. I've got no interest in your apportioning of blame to the WC and those that fight back, and I think you're contemptible.


shit answer, and shit interpretation of what I've said.

but if this is the level of debate you're able to work on now, then feel free to ignore my posts as you'll no doubt pick up the shitty end of the stick everytime.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 3, 2015)

free spirit said:


> you used to be a poster worth debating with. It's a shame you've descended to this bollocks of late.


she will never descend to your abyssal level.


----------



## cesare (Oct 3, 2015)

free spirit said:


> shit answer, and shit interpretation of what I've said.
> 
> but if this is the level of debate you're able to work on now, then feel free to ignore my posts as you'll no doubt pick up the shitty end of the stick everytime.


I'm not going to ignore your posts because you use your small business status as a cover for your attacks. What's worse, you also made a huge fuss about supporting the LibDems before you bailed on them to become a green. You are the absolute embodiment of neoliberalism writ large.


----------



## free spirit (Oct 3, 2015)

cesare said:


> You are the absolute embodiment of neoliberalism writ large.


oh fuck off with that bullshit


----------



## free spirit (Oct 3, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> she will never descend to your abyssal level.


says the sewer dweller.


----------



## cesare (Oct 3, 2015)

free spirit said:


> oh fuck off with that bullshit


No.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 3, 2015)

free spirit said:


> says the sewer dweller.


i rest my case


----------



## free spirit (Oct 3, 2015)

cesare said:


> No.


if you think I in any way embody neoliberalism then you obviously don't have a clue what the term means.


----------



## cesare (Oct 3, 2015)

free spirit said:


> if you think I in any way embody neoliberalism then you obviously don't have a clue what the term means.


I was just being kind.


----------



## free spirit (Oct 3, 2015)

cesare said:


> I was just being kind.


a disingenuous wanker more like.

If I was what you say, then I'd not have 'bailed on the lib dems to support the Greens'.... though that's a bit of a misrepresentation given that I bailed on the lib dems pretty much as soon as they went into coalition with the tories, and joined the Greens 4.5 years later when it became clear that they were the only significant party standing that didn't support those neoliberal austerity policies.


----------



## cesare (Oct 3, 2015)

free spirit said:


> a disingenuous wanker more like.
> 
> If I was what you say, then I'd not have 'bailed on the lib dems to support the Greens'.... though that's a bit of a misrepresentation given that I bailed on the lib dems pretty much as soon as they went into coalition with the tories, and joined the Greens 4.5 years later when it became clear that they were the only significant party standing that didn't support those neoliberal austerity policies.



Listen to yourself. Come on, let's hear your weaselly excuses for supporting Assange and Ched Evans next.


----------



## free spirit (Oct 3, 2015)

cesare said:


> Listen to yourself. Come on, let's hear your weaselly excuses for supporting Assange and Ched Evans next.


if you don't want to actually debate a subject why not just not debate it rather than this bullshit?

You think you should have the right to post up complete crap about me without me pointing out that you're talking complete crap?

I dared to disagree with the Urban lynch mob on the Ched Evans case, and attempt to have a discussion of the legal implications stemming from it, but the lynch mob were having none of it so I gave up.

Assange and wikileaks, not really sure what you're on about, you've probably mixed me up with someone else or picked up the wrong end of the stick again.


----------



## ClassWar2015 (Oct 3, 2015)

free spirit said:


> so class war is now to just be about PR stunts against stuff they consider the be vacuous shit?
> 
> Sounds kinda fun, but also a wee bit limited in political terms.... but then I guess that's class war all over.



We have generated debate globally by this action. This can only be a good thing.


----------



## cesare (Oct 3, 2015)

free spirit said:


> if you don't want to actually debate a subject why not just not debate it rather than this bullshit?
> 
> You think you should have the right to post up complete crap about me without me pointing out that you're talking complete crap?
> 
> ...


Urban lynch mob after poor Ched Evans. (((Rapists)))

Edit: and here's the Assange link Assange to face extradition


----------



## ClassWar2015 (Oct 3, 2015)




----------



## cesare (Oct 3, 2015)




----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 3, 2015)

ClassWar2015 said:


> We have generated debate globally by this action. This can only be a good thing.


Fair dos.


----------



## ClassWar2015 (Oct 3, 2015)

*Fuck Parade 3 report: “They only call it class war when we fight back!”*
October 2, 2015 news




_*Positive report from Fuck Parade 3, sent in by a random anarchist who was in the mob.*_

Last Saturday over a thousand people came together at the ‘Fuck Parade’ to resist gentrification and the social cleansing in London’s East End. It was a beautiful expression of feeling put into action.

It kicked off under Shoreditch High Street arches with three or so massive music rigs, fire breathing and buzzing energy. A couple of hundred at first, mostly anarchists, squatters and social housing eviction resistors. The solid bloc continued to grow, as the informal march went through the streets chanting with flares and flash grenades, holding space and blocking roads, picking up more and more local people off the street and out of the estates as it passed. At points the demo was around a thousand people.

As the march hit the famous hipster cereal cafe the windows went in and it got a dose of red paint. The staff got the shutters down but not before a smoke bomb had gone in and the street outside got christened with cornflakes.

On from there a number of upmarket Estate agents got smashed up and kicked in with boots and flying metal street furniture. As riot cops tried to keep up with the bloc and occasionally try to cut it off or snatch people, they were very obviously outnumbered and the crowd weren’t having any of it, with missiles flying, confrontations and very physical scuffles breaking out continuously, leading to a decent amount of pighats flying about…

There was a “hipster cop pig” effigy set alight, bins pulled into the road and put on fire, which was helpfully much exacerbated by the clueless cops who struggled with the burning effigy spreading the fire.

De-arresting was fearless, as at one point almost fifty people swarmed to try and take back one of their own, driving riotcops with shields and batons back off the road.

The bloc held solid for the best part of the demo with police unable to penetrate it, impotent and overwhelmed by numbers they clearly hadn’t anticipated, given the local strength of feeling.

Cop vans with arrestees were surrounded and unable to move, and the rear doors of one van were forced open in an attempt to liberate arrestees, with the crowd demanding “give them back they dont belong to you!”. The cops were properly riled and even began turning on each other when one of the riotcops lost it and started screaming that his colleague was a “fat stupid cunt”.

The solidarity was beautiful as the crowd protected each other, refused police access to blocs, picked each other up if we hit the floor and totally had each others backs. In the middle of what might have looked like total chaos, when an ambulance was seeking to pass  the road, the entire crowd simultaniously stopped and waved it through, immediately reforming to retake the road once it had passed.

The crowd went on to split into three or so roaming blocs, each finding its own action and celebrations before diffusing into the night.

Much has subsequently been made in the mainstream press of the hipster wanker cereal cafe getting smashed. But for those who were there that was just one aspect of many, seemingly no more pertinent a target at the time than the Estate agents, which got an even better thrashing but were almost entirely written out of the “official” narrative. Similarly, participants were misrepresented as a bunch of middle class whiteboys, when in fact it was very predominantly working class and diverse in terms of age, gender, race, ability and experience. This rewriting of history and identity is arguably its own type of state/media violence. Either they just dont want to see us, or perhaps we are so invisible to them they can no longer see us at all?

Alongside somesuch pure bollocks made up by the press, there’s predictably been all types of liberal middle class whining in the mainstream media about direct action, the “right” to ineffective protest, and the human right to expensive cereal. The point lost on them all is that the Fuck Parade exists precisely to offend the parasitic classes and class traitors. It is precisely the fact that Fuck Parade has made no apologies for itself and sets its own terms that has so far been its strength.



















Fuck Parade 3 report: “They only call it class war when we fight back!”   - Rabble


----------



## free spirit (Oct 3, 2015)

cesare said:


> Edit: and here's the Assange link Assange to face extradition





> Having read the transcripts of the interviews, seeing as someone leaked them to the web, I can well see why the case was initially dropped, because it stands very little chance of getting a conviction whatever the truth of the matter - I'd expect it would also have been dropped in the UK by the CPS (rightly or wrongly).


you see that 'rightly or wrongly' bit?

ah fuck it, you're not going to get the nuance are you.


----------



## cesare (Oct 3, 2015)

free spirit said:


> you see that 'rightly or wrongly' bit?
> 
> ah fuck it, you're not going to get the nuance are you.






> In English law, there is an evidential presumption that a woman who is not conscious has not consented (s.75 Sexual Offences Act 2003). It is then up to the defendant to prove either that there was in fact consent, or that he had a reasonable belief in consent. Consent to protected sex is not consent to unprotected sex: a conditional “yes”, is in practice a “no” where the conditions are not satisfied.



Applies to your Assange and Evans arguments. Consent.


----------



## free spirit (Oct 3, 2015)

that's as maybe, but I wasn't actually defending / supporting him, just saying that to me it didn't seem that likely that he'd end up being convicted (rightly or wrongly).

nuance.

eta shall we stop derailing this thread with this shit?


----------



## cesare (Oct 3, 2015)

free spirit said:


> that's as maybe, but I wasn't actually defending / supporting him, just saying that to me it didn't seem that likely that he'd end up being convicted (rightly or wrongly).
> 
> nuance.
> 
> eta shall we stop derailing this thread with this shit?


You decided to construct an argument, in both cases, that the lack of consent wasn't a lack of consent. That's not nuance, that's rape apology. The reason that I'm arguing with you about everything about you, is because you couldn't let it lie with what you'd already posted about support of small business and blaming some of the WC. You had to come back for more this evening. So fuck it, every time you answer me I'll fucking respond.


----------



## free spirit (Oct 3, 2015)

cesare said:


> You decided to construct an argument, in both cases, that the lack of consent wasn't a lack of consent. That's not nuance, that's rape apology. The reason that I'm arguing with you about everything about you, is because you couldn't let it lie with what you'd already posted about support of small business and blaming some of the WC. You had to come back for more this evening. So fuck it, every time you answer me I'll fucking respond.


so because I chose to debate an aspect of gentrification of working class areas that you're uncomfortable with, you thought you'd rake over old irrelevant shit, attempt to paint me as a neoliberal, then when that failed go for rape apologist.

you must have a really shit argument to need to pull this crap to avoid making your case.


----------



## cesare (Oct 3, 2015)

free spirit said:


> so because I chose to debate an aspect of gentrification of working class areas that you're uncomfortable with, you thought you'd rake over old irrelevant shit, attempt to paint me as a neoliberal, then when that failed go for rape apologist.
> 
> you must have a really shit argument to need to pull this crap to avoid making your case.


No. I'm drawing the comparison with you attacking/blaming the victims.


----------



## free spirit (Oct 3, 2015)

cesare said:


> No. I'm drawing the comparison with you attacking/blaming the victims.


how the fuck are people who made a load of money from selling off formerly publicly owned assets at a significant profit to buy to let landlords classed as 'the victims' in this?

Yes they were just responding to the government's policies, but they aren't the victims in this, the victims are the ones who're now paying far higher rents to rent the same properties from the private landlords who now own over a third of the former council homes sold under right to buy, and I'm definitely not blaming them.

ps the government's just increased the discount to £103,900 for London council houses under right to buy, so anyone using that to buy a council house could then flog it at an instant £100k profit to a BTL landlord (and many have). I don't get why you have an issue with that being described as profiteering.


----------



## cesare (Oct 3, 2015)

free spirit said:


> how the fuck are people who made a load of money from selling off formerly publicly owned assets at a significant profit to buy to let landlords classed as 'the victims' in this?
> 
> Yes they were just responding to the government's policies, but they aren't the victims in this, the victims are the ones who're now paying far higher rents to rent the same properties from the private landlords who now own over a third of the former council homes sold under right to buy, and I'm definitely not blaming them.
> 
> ps the government's just increased the discount to £103,900 for London council houses under right to buy, so anyone using that to buy a council house could then flog it at an instant £100k profit to a BTL landlord (and many have). I don't get why you have an issue with that being described as profiteering.


You haven't even read what Marty had to say, have you. You're so desperate to draw attention to the discount that you miss that 100k off London prices doesn't make these properties within reach anymore. Which is why the councils are doing what Marty said.

Good grief.


----------



## pocketscience (Oct 3, 2015)

cesare said:


> Your point is to make sure that individuals are blamed for state policy
> That people's attention is distracted to blaming WC individuals concurrently with making the case for small business owners. So, no. I've got no interest in your apportioning of blame to the WC and those that fight back, and I think you're contemptible.


Anyone buying-in is selling-out. Millions of council homes lost forever. They've betrayed a fair public housing system that had previously done them a good turn, and with it made a pact with the banks and private property marketeers. Surely class traitors, scabs?



			
				J.P. Morgan - Banker - 1891 said:
			
		

> "The Working Class? They're no problem. I can buy one half to kill the other half!"


----------



## cesare (Oct 3, 2015)

pocketscience said:


> Anyone buying-in is selling-out. Millions of council homes lost forever. They've betrayed a fair public housing system that had previously done them a good turn, and with it made a pact with the banks and private property marketeers, Surely class traitors, scabs.


You'd rather blame the people doing it, than the State for encouraging it. I'll look out some info for you tomorrow if I can find it - Lewisham and their problem of not being able to convince people to buy. RTBs dropped so low that they had to re-incentivise it, and iirc Lambeth too.


----------



## pocketscience (Oct 3, 2015)

cesare said:


> You'd rather blame the people doing it, than the State for encouraging it. I'll look out some info for you tomorrow if I can find it - Lewisham and their problem of not being able to convince people to buy. RTBs dropped so low that they had to re-incentivise it, and iirc Lambeth too.


The state encourages and provides incentives for creating small businesses too... Should individuals not be blamed for doing that?


----------



## cesare (Oct 4, 2015)

pocketscience said:


> The state encourages and provides incentives for creating small businesses too... Should individuals not be blamed for doing that?


*shrug* not comparing apples with apples. Council tenants with small business owners, not really, no.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 4, 2015)

cesare said:


> *shrug* not comparing apples with apples. Council tenants with small business owners, not really, no.


Dunno what the incentives are nowadays, but back in the day with the enterprise allowance scheme, I knew a few people who concocted various dubious schemes to get onto that and off the dole - getting someone to deposit a grand in your bank account for a day was part of it, irrc. No doubt some people claiming it actually had genuine business plans.


----------



## cesare (Oct 4, 2015)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Dunno what the incentives are nowadays, but back in the day with the enterprise allowance scheme, I knew a few people who concocted various dubious schemes to get onto that and off the dole - getting someone to deposit a grand in your bank account for a day was part of it, irrc. No doubt some people claiming it actually had genuine business plans.


So what? And there are some people that claim benefits that they're not entitled to as well. In the scheme of things though, it's minimal. Which is why many people reject the BENEFIT SCROUNGER narrative, or indeed GRANTS SCROUNGER narrative too.


----------



## free spirit (Oct 4, 2015)

cesare said:


> You haven't even read what Marty had to say, have you. You're so desperate to draw attention to the discount that you miss that 100k off London prices doesn't make these properties within reach anymore. Which is why the councils are doing what Marty said.
> 
> Good grief.


please state your own case, not Marty's. Are you saying that what I've described isn't happening in London, or that you don't see it as a problem / think that those doing it are in no way responsible for the results of their actions?

Because regardless of Marty's post, the stats show that RTB council housing sales have increased to over 1000 per quarter in London since that discount was increased and are at their highest level of any time in the last decade (still well down on the peak).

Social housing sales (including Right to Buy and transfers) - GOV.UK

Not that the tenants who're doing the RTB are the only ones involved, there are obviously the estate agents, banks, btl landlords etc. all leading them on to do it, providing the finance etc etc.



> “Over the years, I have seen many of our estates become virtual honey pots for estate agents and landlords,” adds Pat Callaghan, cabinet member for housing in Labour-led Camden – where 36% of the 8,922 leasehold properties are sub-let.
> 
> She says estate agents flyer estates, particularly seeking older tenantswho want to move out of the city. They then fund the purchase, allow them to move and the property goes straight into the private rented sector.
> 
> “The landlords want to get as much money as they can for the property, so they split it up and let it out, often to a group of students to share,” she says.


Right to Buy to Let | Analysis | Inside Housing


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 4, 2015)

cesare said:


> So what? And there are some people that claim benefits that they're not entitled to as well. In the scheme of things though, it's minimal. Which is why many people reject the BENEFIT SCROUNGER narrative, or indeed GRANTS SCROUNGER narrative too.


You've misunderstood me, I think. afaic good luck to them, take what you can get when you find yourself at the wrong end of the shitty stick. 

In the scheme of things, back in the days of mass unemployment in the late 80s, it wasn't really minimal, though. There was a whole bunch of people doing stuff despite being on the dole, not letting being on the dole defeat them. They weren't scroungers. But they also weren't obedient puppies doing what the state told them to do.


----------



## cesare (Oct 4, 2015)

From your own link, free spirit 12 properties sold in TH 2012-13 

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/363937/LT_648.xlsx


----------



## cesare (Oct 4, 2015)

littlebabyjesus said:


> You've misunderstood me, I think. afaic good luck to them, take what you can get when you find yourself at the wrong end of the shitty stick.
> 
> In the scheme of things, back in the days of mass unemployment in the late 80s, it wasn't really minimal, though. There was a whole bunch of people doing stuff despite being on the dole, not letting being on the dole defeat them. They weren't scroungers. But they also weren't obedient puppies doing what the state told them to do.


I don't really see the relevance to what's happening in TH now though.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 4, 2015)

cesare said:


> I don't really see the relevance to what's happening in TH now though.


Fair enough. Not much. 

And I'm not claiming that the coco pop twins are some kind of equivalent to this. They're clearly not.

There is a point about how people get coopted into the system, though, whether that's home ownership or starting your own business. I'm certainly not going to have a go at everyone who starts their own business if the alternative is some crap job with a crap boss.


----------



## pocketscience (Oct 4, 2015)

cesare said:


> *shrug* not comparing apples with apples. Council tenants with small business owners, not really, no.


Cheap affordable private housing lost because of gentrification = Bad Ceraels
Cheap affordable public housing lost because of RTB = loads of humming and ahrring well it's the governments fault

Start a small business in an area of gentrification = Scum
Exercise RTB in a gentrified area and by doing so remove an affordable home from the public domain and put it on the private property market = the government held a gun to their working class head to make them do it


----------



## pocketscience (Oct 4, 2015)

cesare said:


> From your own link, free spirit 12 properties sold in TH 2012-13
> 
> https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/363937/LT_648.xlsx


Maybe there were only 12 left


eta; just looked at the stats - TH averages over 1000 a year since Y2K


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 4, 2015)

It's stupid to get lost in blaming individuals for making decisions that are clearly good for them, though. I'm not going to have a go at someone for cashing in on the housing boom - 'scrabbling around to pay the bills vs security for the rest of my life and something to give to the kids, who won't otherwise get what I was given', no don't blame people in that position at all.


----------



## free spirit (Oct 4, 2015)

cesare said:


> From your own link, free spirit 12 properties sold in TH 2012-13
> 
> https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/363937/LT_648.xlsx


86 in 2013-14, not sure why you gave the previous figure.

and Tower Hamlets actually rates at over 50% of RTB former council houses now being btl private rented.


----------



## free spirit (Oct 4, 2015)

littlebabyjesus said:


> It's stupid to get lost in blaming individuals for making decisions that are clearly good for them, though. I'm not going to have a go at someone for cashing in on the housing boom - 'scrabbling around to pay the bills vs security for the rest of my life and something to give to the kids, who won't otherwise get what I was given', no don't blame people in that position at all.


similar principle to scabbing in a strike situation. What's good for the individual is bad for the wider community and plays into the tories hands in terms of furthering their ideological agenda and transferring public assets into private hands.


----------



## cesare (Oct 4, 2015)

pocketscience said:


> Cheap affordable private housing lost to gentrification = Bad
> Cheap affordable public housing lost to RTB = loads of humming and ahrring well it's the governments fault
> 
> Start a small business in an area of gentrification = Scum
> Exercise RTB in a gentrified area and by doing so remove an affordable home from the public domain and put it on the private property market = the government held a gun to their working class head to make them do it


https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/363937/LT_648.xlsx

Here's the data set of how widespread RTB is in London, and in particular the East End. The main part of the council properties were lost decades ago, and they weren't replaced so they're not really there to sell on the same scale. There are many reasons for them not being replaced and those reasons are summarised in the report that I linked to earlier today called From Right to Buy to Buy to Let. You're blaming people for something that happened decades ago. But RTB decades ago doesn't explain why gentrification/social cleansing has happened with such speed over the past 5 years or so. You're blaming a small section of the WC  for something that happened decades ago, and which hasn't directly caused what's happened in the past 5.


----------



## cesare (Oct 4, 2015)

pocketscience said:


> Maybe there were only 12 left


Well, yes


----------



## cesare (Oct 4, 2015)

free spirit said:


> 86 in 2013-14, not sure why you gave the previous figure.
> 
> and Tower Hamlets actually rates at over 50% of RTB former council houses now being btl private rented.


Wtf are you telling me what I put on the thread fucking days ago and linked to the actual report that John Biggs was talking about, just this morning.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 4, 2015)

free spirit said:


> similar principle to scabbing in a strike situation. What's good for the individual is bad for the wider community and plays into the tories hands in terms of furthering their ideological agenda and transferring public assets into private hands.


I guess one difference is that if you scab, the people you're fucking over are right in front of you. You can name them. If you exercise rtb and sell on, you're contributing to the malaise, but you're fucking over a whole generation, really. You can't name them. And if you don't do it, you're possibly not giving your best to your kids. Most people will sacrifice a lot of principle if what they do will help their kids - and it's a case of fuck or be fucked, which isn't the case with scabbing really. 

But yes, the collapse of solidarity is part of this.


----------



## Lurdan (Oct 4, 2015)

free spirit said:


> Right to Buy to Let | Analysis | Inside Housing



Paywalled. Full text of the article which is quite interesting IMO.


Spoiler: Right to Buy to Let



Right to Buy to Let
14 August 2015 | By Pete Apps

Exclusive Inside Housing research reveals almost 40% of ex-council homes sold under the Right to Buy are now in the private rented sector. Pete Apps considers the impact of the move from Right to Buy to buy-to-let

There is a two-bedroom flat listed on Zoopla, which sums up – in a nutshell – why so many people paying attention to housing policy in the UK get annoyed about the Right to Buy.

It is a first-floor flat in Bermondsey, south London, just a short walk from Tower Bridge and Boris Johnson’s glossy headquarters on the south bank of the Thames.

It has a small, well-fitted kitchen, a lounge and a balcony. From its brown-brick exterior, it is unmistakably part of London’s 1960s council house building boom, but according to its description on the property listings site, it is now “ex-local authority”.

The letting agent is offering the flat for £1,712 per month, a 409% mark-up on the average rent for a council flat in Southwark of £418.

This rent increase is extreme, but the move into the private rented sector (PRS) is a trend that exclusive research by Inside Housing demonstrates is being replicated all across England.

Freedom of Information Act responses from 91 councils show they have sold a combined 127,763 council flats and maisonettes since the Right to Buy was introduced in 1980.

Among these, 47,994 leaseholders are registered as living away from the property – a strong suggestion that they are renting it out privately. This means 37.6% of the council homes which were sold off at a discount in the hope of fulfilling a homeownership dream, are now back in the rental sector. Just for much higher rents.

Inside Housing arrived at the figure by asking councils how many residential leaseholds have been sold. This occurs where a flat or maisonette is sold to a tenant under the Right to Buy – with the council continuing to own the freehold of the block.

Councils were then asked how many leaseholders have registered an away address, which indicates the property is being sub-let. While this does include a small margin for error where, for example, family members live in the home free of charge, it provides the best possible estimate and is the figure some local authorities use to estimate how many homes are being rented privately.

Changing estates
So what is the impact of so many ex-council flats going into the private rented sector?

The first is that the higher rents are railroading through changes to the traditional make-up of estates, especially in high-value areas like London.

“It is fundamentally changing the nature of former social housing estates, because the people who can afford the private rents are not the same people who could afford social housing rents,” says Karen Buck, Labour MP for Westminster North.

“Over the years, I have seen many of our estates become virtual honey pots for estate agents and landlords,” adds Pat Callaghan, cabinet member for housing in Labour-led Camden – where 36% of the 8,922 leasehold properties are sub-let.

She says estate agents flyer estates, particularly seeking older tenantswho want to move out of the city. They then fund the purchase, allow them to move and the property goes straight into the private rented sector.

“The landlords want to get as much money as they can for the property, so they split it up and let it out, often to a group of students to share,” she says.

Philip Glanville, cabinet member for housing in Hackney (7,423 leaseholders, 26% sub-letting) agrees.

“When I first got elected in 2006, the estates were mainly people who owned the home or council tenants,” he says. “Now there are a lot of professional sharers and students.”

This trend is not confined to London. Nick Atkin is chief executive of Halton Housing Trust, which owns 6,400 homes in Cheshire following a transfer from the council, and many of them remain subject to the Right to Buy.

“One in four sales is made to someone who is in receipt of housing benefit, so they are often not the person buying the home,” he says.

“It can be friends and family, but it is also companies who offer to purchase the home on their behalf.”

Catherine Hand, a partner at Trowers & Hamlins solicitors, explains that while there are restrictions on when a tenant can sell their Right to Buy home, there is nothing councils can do under the current system to prevent immediate sub-letting.

Knock-on effect
This has a knock-on effect on estate management. Social landlords remain responsible for the upkeep of the estate as a whole, but not the homes in the private sector.

“We have invested £130m into our homes and neighbourhoods, and some private landlords obviously don’t invest to the same standard,” says Mr Atkin.

Ms Callaghan explains that the council spends time and legal resources tracking down private landlords to repair properties – and also picks up the tab where their actions damage surrounding stock.

“One landlord moved a group of four students into what was originally a two-bedroom flat,” she says. “The tenant below contacted us, because it flooded the sewage system and she had urine running down her walls.”

There is also the cost to the public purse in housing benefit and temporary accommodation. Both Camden and Hackney, and many councils all across the country rent back the homes they sold at a discount to provide temporary accommodation to tenants.

This means there is a hit to the housing benefit bill – as the private landlord charges a market rate for the property and the taxpayer picks up the cost.

Inside Housing’s research comes as the Conservative government prepares to extend full Right to Buy discounts to 1.3 million housing association tenants – and sell thousands of high-value council homes to fund it.

During the election campaign, David Cameron made this extension one of his flagship policies, saying: “Conservatives have dreamed of building a property-owning democracy for generations.”

But with nothing in place to prevent homes going into the private rented sector, Mr Cameron may in fact be subsidising a new generation of buy-to-let landlords.

Indeed, the research shows that across the 91 councils, 2,020 leaseholders have bought their home since discounts were raised in 2012, and already registered an away address.

Kathleen Kelly, assistant director of policy and research at the National Housing Federation, says this demonstrates one of the reasons why it is keen to explore changes to the planned extension.

“Clearly once a home is sold through Right to Buy, owners are free to sell the property on after a period of time and many of these homes do end up in the hands of private landlords,” she says.

“That is why we are keen to explore with government the other ways that housing associations can help more families get on the path towards buying their own home, such as shared ownership and buying smaller stakes.”

Government’s defence
In response to the research, Brandon Lewis, housing minister, re-issued the government’s explanation of its plan to extend the Right to Buy, saying: “It is important that councils make the best use of their assets and manage their housing stock as efficiently as possible. So it is right that as high-value council homes become empty, they should be sold to fund new affordable housebuilding in the same area.”

The Department for Communities and Local Government refused to comment in any further detail on the findings.

The research follows a similar study by the Daily Mirror two-and-a-half years ago, which looked at the figures from 13 large metropolitan areas, and concluded a third of homes were in the private rented sector.

Further research by London Assembly member Tom Copley last year showed an average of 36% of homes across London boroughs.

But Inside Housing’s is the most comprehensive nationwide study – and suggests an increasing trend.

Of the 13 London boroughs that responded to both Mr Copley and Inside Housing, nine showed an increased proportion of likely sub-lets in just 12 months. The most marked rise was in Brent, which saw an additional 200 leaseholders with away addresses in the year – going up from 25% to 32.9% of properties sold.

Nationwide, six local authorities have now reached a tipping point where more than half the flats sold under Right to Buy are being rented privately. In Milton Keynes, the most heavily affected, 69.6% of the 1,610 leaseholds sold have away addresses [see box].

To test the theory that these homes are out of reach of the working poor, Inside Housing telephones the letting agent for the Bermondsey property described above. We pose as a local teaching assistant and requested a viewing of a home – once built at the public’s expense to house London’s working poor.

“I’m not being rude, but how much do you earn?” the letting agent asks. We say £18,000 per year, and explain that we hope to qualify for housing benefit to help pay the rent.

“We don’t take tenants on housing benefit,” the agent responds curtly and ends the call. It appears the fears are justified.

Top 10 areas of Right to Buy sub-letting
Rank Local authority Leaseholds sold Away address registered Approximate % sub-letting
1 Milton Keynes 1,610 1,121 69.6
2 Stevenage 1,365 893 65.4
3 Blackpool 397 259 65.2
4 Corby 591 371 62.8
5 South Kesteven 128 73 57.0
6 Kingston 1,497 752 50.2
7 Enfield 4,670 2,264 48.5
8 Northampton 808 384 47.5
9 Nuneaton 430 204 47.4
10 Stoke 348 165 47.4
Source: Inside Housing research


----------



## pocketscience (Oct 4, 2015)

littlebabyjesus said:


> *I guess one difference is that if you scab, the people you're fucking over are right in front of you. You can name them. *If you exercise rtb and sell on, you're contributing to the malaise, but you're fucking over a whole generation, really. You can't name them. And if you don't do it, you're possibly not giving your best to your kids. Most people will sacrifice a lot of principle if what they do will help their kids - and it's a case of fuck or be fucked, which isn't the case with scabbing really.
> 
> But yes, the collapse of solidarity is part of this.


with RTB you're doing it to your neighbors kids


----------



## cesare (Oct 4, 2015)

cesare said:


> Here's a link to the report I mentioned "From Right to Buy to Buy to Let" January 2014
> 
> http://tomcopley.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/From-Right-to-Buy-to-Buy-to-Let-Jan-2014.pdf


Here it is again.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 4, 2015)

pocketscience said:


> with RTB you're doing it to your neighbors kids


That's the evil genius of rtb. It undermines solidarity, no doubt whatever. But I can't blame anyone for taking it up. I admire anyone who hasn't on principle, but I'm certainly not going to judge anyone who has. That's what's so fucking evil about it - there are lots of ways your neighbours' kids are being fucked over, mostly by people far richer than the rtb council tenants, so it's really not fair to lay that one on them.

It reminds me of a logic from Catch22: 

'What if everyone did what you are doing?'

'If everyone was doing what I'm doing, I'd be mad not to.'


----------



## cesare (Oct 4, 2015)

littlebabyjesus said:


> That's the evil genius of rtb. It undermines solidarity, no doubt whatever. But I can't blame anyone for taking it up. I admire anyone who hasn't on principle, but I'm certainly not going to judge anyone who has. That's what's so fucking evil about it - there are lots of ways your neighbours' kids are being fucked over, mostly by people far richer than the rtb council tenants, so it's really not fair to lay that one on them.


RTB was probably the worst fuck over of the working class. Fucked over and make sure they blame each other, not the proponents.


----------



## free spirit (Oct 4, 2015)

Essentially it's a tory induced tragedy of the commons* type attack on the working class, pitching self interest against the interest of the wider community / class.

It would have been hard to do it, but it could have been opposed at a grassroots level with a campaign to persuade people not to do the RTB thing. I don't know if this was attempted, would be interested to know more if it had been at some point.

Then again a lot of the issues were exacerbated by the government refusing to allow councils to use the proceeds to build further council houses (IIRC forcing them to use the proceeds to pay off existing loads, but not allowing them to take out further loans).


*yes I'm aware of the limitations of the tragedy of the commons analysis, but it seems reasonably apt here.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 4, 2015)

cesare said:


> RTB was probably the worst fuck over of the working class. Fucked over and make sure they blame each other, not the proponents.


yep. And its effects are becoming ever clearer every year. It's a slow-burner fuck-up legacy from Thatcher. One for her to enjoy from the grave.


----------



## cesare (Oct 4, 2015)

littlebabyjesus said:


> yep. And its effects are becoming ever clearer every year. It's a slow-burner fuck-up legacy from Thatcher. One for her to enjoy from the grave.


It gets even worse though, if you read what marty's saying. It's not the whole story though and we shouldn't concentrate on it as if it was.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 4, 2015)

cesare said:


> It's not the whole story though and we shouldn't concentrate on it as if it was.


No, it's not.


----------



## pocketscience (Oct 4, 2015)

littlebabyjesus said:


> That's the evil genius of rtb. It undermines solidarity, no doubt whatever. But I can't blame anyone for taking it up. I admire anyone who hasn't on principle, but I'm certainly not going to judge anyone who has. That's what's so fucking evil about it - there are lots of ways your neighbours' kids are being fucked over, mostly by people far richer than the rtb council tenants, so it's really not fair to lay that one on them.


Sure, most of my school mates' parents did it. I don't really blame them either, but what pisses me off no end now though (and I've had some heated discussions with good mates), is how some of them are now moaning that their kids can't get on the ladder and that they dread the thought of them having to live up north.


----------



## cesare (Oct 4, 2015)

pocketscience said:


> Sure, most of my school mates' parents did it. I don't really blame them either, but what pisses me off no end now though (and I've had some heated discussions with good mates), is how some of them are now moaning that their kids can't get on the ladder and that they dread the thought of them having to live up north.


Tell them that their kids will get on the ladder when they die.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 4, 2015)

pocketscience said:


> Sure, most of my school mates' parents did it. I don't really blame them either, but what pisses me off no end now though (and I've had some heated discussions with good mates), is how some of them are now moaning that their kids can't get on the ladder and that they dread the thought of them having to live up north.


I once had a stand-up drunken row with a colleague about it. I mentioned more or less what I said above and he took massive personal umbrage at it cos his parents had done it, and it was the best thing that had ever happened to them, blah, blah. He didn't get the nuance, but I think that's doubly why you shouldn't blame individual rtbers. Good to get people to join some dots, though. (and he was a massive tory twat)


----------



## free spirit (Oct 4, 2015)

cesare said:


> Wtf are you telling me what I put on the thread fucking days ago and linked to the actual report that John Biggs was talking about, just this morning.


It'd help if you could state your position a little more coherently when asked, but also I haven't read every post on this 60 page thread and don't intend to.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 4, 2015)

cesare said:


> Tell them that their kids will get on the ladder when they die.


----------



## cesare (Oct 4, 2015)

free spirit said:


> It'd help if you could state your position a little more coherently when asked, but also I haven't read every post on this 60 page thread and don't intend to.


Please don't blame me for (a) your lack of understanding; and (b) your lack of reading posts. A simple, oh, apologies, I missed that, would have sufficed.


----------



## kabbes (Oct 4, 2015)

cesare said:


> Tell them that their kids will get on the ladder when they die.


Well this is the ridiculousness of all defenses to inheritance policy or other policy on the grounds of inheritance.  I know people like the idea of helping their kids but what is the point of fucking them over on a national, social scale for their first 40 or 60 years just so they can get an inheritance in their middle or old age?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 4, 2015)

pocketscience said:


> The state encourages and provides incentives for creating small businesses too... Should individuals not be blamed for doing that?


what incentives do individuals provide potential small business people?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 4, 2015)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Fair enough. Not much.
> 
> And I'm not claiming that the coco pop twins are some kind of equivalent to this. They're clearly not.
> 
> There is a point about how people get coopted into the system, though, whether that's home ownership or starting your own business. I'm certainly not going to have a go at everyone who starts their own business if the alternative is some crap job with a crap boss.


all bosses are bastards


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 4, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> the 99p menu has fallen drastically in range and I can't remember the last time there was a deal voucher on the back of my bus ticket. Don't be fooled by the clowns new wraps and real meat. Still slyly hiking the prices for the classics back up to the bad old days.


Can't beat their Fillet o fish though


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 4, 2015)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> IMO it happens less now more due to the fact that in those years larger demos happened, and these tended to have a element that was able to trash windows under the cover of a larger mass, and of course McDonalds was a clear symbol of the corporate face of globalization that lots of these demos were (in part) about.
> 
> As someone said at the time, breaking McDonalds windows was the '90s equivalent of burning the US flag.
> 
> As well as that I think there's other issues to do with animal rights being a more significant part of the radical political scene then than it is now, and hopefully a maturing of the attitudes around being simplistically critical of the lifestyle politics that also McDonalds in part represented.



Apart from ' can't be bothered to cook' what lifestyle politics do people  who go to McDoalds represent ?


----------



## cesare (Oct 4, 2015)

kabbes said:


> Well this is the ridiculousness of all defenses to inheritance policy or other policy on the grounds of inheritance.  I know people like the idea of helping their kids but what is the point of fucking them over on a national, social scale for their first 40 or 60 years just so they can get an inheritance in their middle or old age?


Inheritance plays a big part in perpetuating inequality though.


----------



## kabbes (Oct 4, 2015)

cesare said:


> Inheritance plays a big part in perpetuating inequality though.


Exactly my point.  I'd love to eliminate it entirely.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 4, 2015)

free spirit said:


> similar principle to scabbing in a strike situation.


Just to come back to this, I think there's a massive difference. A scab is making a choice not to show solidarity. In the housing market, not exercising rtb isn't allying yourself with a group that is calling for solidarity. It's just not buying your house. If there were a huge self-help movement for people in council housing who refuse to buy, a group with whom to show solidarity, then there might be a valid comparison, but there isn't.


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 4, 2015)

has some hidden hand removed all the amusing tags?


----------



## free spirit (Oct 4, 2015)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Just to come back to this, I think there's a massive difference. A scab is making a choice not to show solidarity. In the housing market, not exercising rtb isn't allying yourself with a group that is calling for solidarity. It's just not buying your house. If there were a huge self-help movement for people in council housing who refuse to buy, a group with whom to show solidarity, then there might be a valid comparison, but there isn't.


I did say 'similar principle' not 'exactly the same', and I agree that in the absence of such a solidarity campaign that such a stance taken by an individual is effectively whistling into the wind.

But we're on a thread discussing a campaigning action by a campaigning organisation, so it's surely valid to discuss the merits or otherwise of such a campaign vs the current actions. A starting point for which must be to discuss and understand the role that the use of RTB to transfer council houses into the private rented sector is playing / has played in the situation.

In terms of the wider political context that I've been attacked for not previously discussing, I'd view the following as being the key policy areas that are ultimately responsible for this situation, and need to be addressed if the gentrification situation is to be sorted out.

Rent controls
Availability of low cost decent quality council housing / social housing
House price to wage ratios, ie viewing massive housing price bubbles as a bad thing with policies to prevent it, rather than encouraging it because it notionally benefits those who already own their own homes and makes the GDP figures look better.
Availability of reasonably paid jobs suitable for those who live in the area (full employment as a serious political aim).
Benefits caps (rent controls and council house provision are far more effective at controlling benefits bills anyway).


----------



## cesare (Oct 4, 2015)

kabbes said:


> Exactly my point.  I'd love to eliminate it entirely.


It's going the opposite way, if I'm reading it right. From the low point in 2009 IHT receipts have been steadily increasing. Was it 2007 that there was the introduction of signing across IHT allowance to surviving partner?  And now £175k family home allowance being added from next April ( and the other IHT plans from the Budget).

I can't find an in depth study more recent than 2005 though.


----------



## cesare (Oct 4, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> has some hidden hand removed all the amusing tags?


I can still see them


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 4, 2015)

cesare said:


> I can still see them


They've been edited to take out the ones that are less than complimentary to CW, though.

I've no idea how the things work, tbh, but someone's been at work sanitising them.


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 4, 2015)

cesare said:


> I can still see them


but there used to be 'public school anarchism' and 'kulak scum' and I know the latter was not removed by the person who placed it there cos it was mine.


----------



## cesare (Oct 4, 2015)

littlebabyjesus said:


> They've been edited to take out the ones criticising CW, though.
> 
> I've no idea how the things work, tbh, but someone's been at work sanitising them.


It can only be the OP or a mod


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 4, 2015)

oh and 'smokebombing toddlers' has also gone


----------



## Belushi (Oct 4, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> but there used to be 'public school anarchism' and 'kulak scum' and I know the latter was not removed by the person who placed it there cos it was mine.



And public school anarchism was me


----------



## cesare (Oct 4, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> but there used to be 'public school anarchism' and 'kulak scum' and I know the latter was not removed by the person who placed it there cos it was mine.


Yep lbj just pointed out that they've changed, I hadn't noticed


----------



## cesare (Oct 4, 2015)

I was too late for the tags on this one  But made up for it on another.


----------



## ClassWar2015 (Oct 5, 2015)

Good write up here..... Class War: Working-Class Activists Reclaiming the Streets of London


----------



## treelover (Oct 6, 2015)

> The café owners seem to be oblivious of the politics and class-based nature of food consumption.



Why should they be? I'm not supporting their enterprise, but they are business people not sociologists, activists, etc.


----------



## ClassWar2015 (Oct 6, 2015)

treelover said:


> Why should they be? I'm not supporting their enterprise, but they are business people not sociologists, activists, etc.



Ignorance is no defence.


----------



## ClassWar2015 (Oct 6, 2015)

.......and I do not think they're ignorant just fucking arrogant.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 6, 2015)

treelover said:


> Why should they be? I'm not supporting their enterprise, but they are business people not sociologists, activists, etc.


they know very well what they're doing


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 10, 2015)

treelover said:


> Why should they be? I'm not supporting their enterprise, but they are business people not sociologists, activists, etc.



Most sensible businesses attempt to serve as broad a customer base as possible. That's nowt to do with sociology of activism, it's to do with maximising throughput and sales.
The Beardy Bros, on the other hand, have gone down the exclusivity route. One doesn't need to understand sociology to realise that in an economically divided locale, exclusivity may well make you a target fo r activism.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 10, 2015)

ClassWar2015 said:


> .......and I do not think they're ignorant just fucking arrogant.


They actively chose to make their business appeal to middle class adults nostalgic for their childhood. Now they're reaping the whirlwind.
Oh dear. How sad. Never mind.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Oct 10, 2015)

littlebabyjesus said:


> They've been edited to take out the ones that are less than complimentary to CW, though.
> 
> I've no idea how the things work, tbh, but someone's been at work sanitising them.



My "Branguardism" tag was taken out, disappointingly. Hardly the most scathing thing I've ever said ffs


----------



## Belushi (Oct 10, 2015)

I see the next target have identified themselves...

Brick Lane Coffee shop comes under fire for 'No Poor People' sign


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 10, 2015)

Belushi said:


> I see the next target have identified themselves...
> 
> Brick Lane Coffee shop comes under fire for 'No Poor People' sign


They're lining up for it.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 10, 2015)

Belushi said:


> I see the next target have identified themselves...
> 
> Brick Lane Coffee shop comes under fire for 'No Poor People' sign



Oh dear. They say it wasn't them, but one of their staff thought it was them and duly tweeted it.


----------



## Citizen66 (Oct 10, 2015)

They're denying it was them but I remember that they did exactly the same thing before.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Oct 10, 2015)

Bunch of cunts


----------



## LDC (Oct 12, 2015)

Speaking to the Organisers of the Brick Lane Fuck Parade About Their Attack on the Cereal Cafe | VICE | United Kingdom


----------



## sim667 (Oct 13, 2015)

cesare said:


> Inheritance plays a big part in perpetuating inequality though.



aye it does, but Ill never be of the view that that inheritance should go to the state either......


----------



## ffsear (Oct 13, 2015)

I wish they'd come and gentrify Croydon!	Just a little bit.


----------



## cesare (Oct 13, 2015)

ffsear said:


> I wish they'd come and gentrify Croydon!	Just a little bit.


That photo's 6 years old. Even google street view is more recent and representative than that. (St Georges Walk, Croydon, if anyone's interested).


----------



## sim667 (Oct 13, 2015)

cesare said:


> That photo's 6 years old. Even google street view is more recent and representative than that. (St Georges Walk, Croydon, if anyone's interested).



Classic architecture that.


----------



## cesare (Oct 13, 2015)

sim667 said:


> Classic architecture that.


60s brutalist


----------



## ffsear (Oct 13, 2015)

cesare said:


> That photo's 6 years old. Even google street view is more recent and representative than that. (St Georges Walk, Croydon, if anyone's interested).



It was a light hearted remark,	I believe the whole place is getting bulldozed next year anyway.


----------



## cesare (Oct 13, 2015)

ffsear said:


> It was a light hearted remark,	I believe the whole place is getting bulldozed next year anyway.


Yep replacing the Whitgift Centre and all sorts of redevelopment. They're keeping Lunar House and Apollo House though apparently.


----------



## Supine (Oct 13, 2015)

ffsear said:


> I wish they'd come and gentrify Croydon!	Just a little bit.



Definately missing a cat cafe


----------



## andy2002 (Oct 15, 2015)

Jamie Smart illustrates Cereal Killer Cafe cookbook


----------



## LDC (Oct 15, 2015)

Maybe they'll be selling copies at the Bookfair.


----------



## The Black Hand (Oct 20, 2015)

The39thStep said:


> anyone know why it's not fashionable to trash Mcds these days?


I'd say it was a certain animal rights generation thing, perhaps not exclusively, but it became ritualistic for a while.


----------



## ska invita (Oct 21, 2015)

interesting set of articles here:
Hipsterphobia is Theoretically Outdated [1/3] | Freedom News
Hipsterphobia is Xenophobic [2/3] | Freedom News
Hipsterphobia Sails Close to Homophobia and Gendered Norms [3/3] | Freedom News

I think theres some truth in this - though has to be set apart from the fact there are some people who can be categorised as hipsters who are just unlikable people because of their egos and values etc


----------



## bimble (Oct 21, 2015)

ska invita said:


> interesting set of articles here:
> Hipsterphobia is Theoretically Outdated [1/3] | Freedom News
> Hipsterphobia is Xenophobic [2/3] | Freedom News
> Hipsterphobia Sails Close to Homophobia and Gendered Norms [3/3] | Freedom News
> ...


Brilliant. thank you.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 21, 2015)

ska invita said:


> I think theres some truth in this - though has to be set apart from the fact there are some people who can be categorised as hipsters who are just unlikable people because of their egos and values etc


I don't think you can set it apart. That's the whole point - you don't know just by looking at someone or seeing what kind of coffee they drink or what kind of place they like to hang out in. That last article has it spot on, imo. Anti-hipster rhetoric is bullshit, politically bankrupt and ultimately inherently reactionary and _conservative_. 



> We don’t need supposedly libertarian people telling us to get fucked because they don’t like the clothes we wear, the culture we move amongst or the destabilising effect the complexity of our lives has on their narrow and antiquated view of the city.



Fucking right.


----------



## Gromit (Oct 21, 2015)

ska invita said:


> I think theres some truth in this - though has to be set apart from the fact there are some people who can be categorised as hipsters who are just unlikable people because of their egos and values etc



Prejudice 
1. an unfavorable opinion or feeling formed beforehand or without knowledge, thought, or reason.
2. any preconceived opinion or feeling, either favorable or unfavorable.
3. unreasonable feelings, opinions, or attitudes, especially of a hostile nature, regarding an ethnic, racial, social, or religious group.

We've had hipsters throughout history. Hipster is just the latest term for them. Basically people who want to be part of whatever cool culture is cool at the time. Today its beards and artisan breads. Once it was the grunge scene then iPods consumerism. Andy Warhol  would be a hipster if he was alive today and would have the biggest beard on the planet.

Its funny how they have become a target for hate for having personal tastes. So much hate in the world cause people are different. How much nicer the world would be if everyone embraced diversity.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 21, 2015)

Gromit said:


> Prejudice
> 1. an unfavorable opinion or feeling formed beforehand or without knowledge, thought, or reason.
> 2. any preconceived opinion or feeling, either favorable or unfavorable.
> 3. unreasonable feelings, opinions, or attitudes, especially of a hostile nature, regarding an ethnic, racial, social, or religious group.
> ...


tbh i never saw punks or grungers try to alter the character of a neighbourhood in the way hipsters do. and it's not like it's just in london, exactly the same thing's happening in e.g. toronto. and frankly toronto seems to me to have at least as much of an issue with gentrification as london, with fucking 60-80 storey towerblocks of yuppie flats going up all round the city. this isn't a 'we don't like young people' thing, this is to me a class issue rather than an age one.


----------



## Citizen66 (Oct 21, 2015)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I don't think you can set it apart. That's the whole point - you don't know just by looking at someone or seeing what kind of coffee they drink or what kind of place they like to hang out in. That last article has it spot on, imo. Anti-hipster rhetoric is bullshit, politically bankrupt and ultimately inherently reactionary and _conservative_.



It's bollocks to say it's about hipsters. The Cereal Cafe lads are gentrifiers who happen to be hipsters. Like Branson is a Capitalist shark who happens to be a hippy. If people attacked Branson would we be saying it's an attack on hippies?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 21, 2015)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I don't think you can set it apart. That's the whole point - you don't know just by looking at someone or seeing what kind of coffee they drink or what kind of place they like to hang out in. That last article has it spot on, imo. Anti-hipster rhetoric is bullshit, politically bankrupt and ultimately inherently reactionary and _conservative_.
> 
> 
> 
> Fucking right.


tbh if someone frequents establishments which are gentrifying an area i think you can tell one or two things about them, be they hipster or no.


----------



## bimble (Oct 21, 2015)

maybe hipster is just the new word for yuppie? Because the beards aren't the point and yuppies stopped when shoulderpads stopped. ?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 21, 2015)

bimble said:


> maybe hipster is just the new word for yuppie? Because the beards aren't the point and yuppies stopped when shoulderpads stopped. ?


it isn't.

next.


----------



## bimble (Oct 21, 2015)

ok. Next is.. this. 
The best thing about it is that I got the link from today's email newsletter from Lambeth Council (true story). 

How to know if where you live is “up and coming”: fried chicken vs. coffee shops


----------



## Nice one (Oct 21, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> *It's bollocks to say it's about hipsters*. The Cereal Cafe lads are gentrifiers who happen to be hipsters. Like Branson is a Capitalist shark who happens to be a hippy. If people attacked Branson would we be saying it's an attack on hippies?



tell that to your mates

















_We don't want your fucking hipster pop-ups. Go back to Hertfordshire. You aren't helpless bystanders in the class war - you're the problem.
Fuck Parade London Twitter_

The point is hipster, like yuppie and toff are just trigger words, shorthand, they have been invested with no meaning (analysis), doesn't matter, not important, we just know they're bad peple doing bad things.

Cereal Cafe lads are business men rinsing the middle class in an enterprising way. Brick lane is a tourist destination (coincidentally just like camden high street, the site of the last fuck parade). Soft targets easy publicity.


----------



## bimble (Oct 21, 2015)

Nice one said:


> Soft targets easy publicity.


I'm confused, looks like you're saying that' s a good thing. 
And.. the publicity does what ?


----------



## bimble (Oct 21, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> it isn't.
> 
> next.




 
Looks like they serve the same function ?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 21, 2015)

bimble said:


> View attachment 78378
> Looks like they serve the same function ?


by no means. yuppies are as the word suggests young professionals. hipsters are more frequently seen running coffee bars or noodle places (or cereal bars) than working for banks, as lawyers or as stockbrokers.


----------



## Maurice Picarda (Oct 21, 2015)

That's the front cover of Kes. What point are Bone's irregulars making about coal mining, compulsory football or falconry?


----------



## bimble (Oct 21, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> by no means. yuppies are as the word suggests young professionals. hipsters are more frequently seen running coffee bars or noodle places (or cereal bars) than working for banks, as lawyers or as stockbrokers.



But I think their moving in has the same effect on a place.

They might 'work in media" or crochet organic cupcakes instead of working in hedge funds.. might wear skinny jeans instead of suits but I thought that the main point was about their effect on a place they move into, which seems to me is similar?

Maybe you hate them more for the ironic tattoos and checked shirts not the gentrification?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 21, 2015)

Maurice Picarda said:


> That's the front cover of Kes. What point are Bone's irregulars making about coal mining, compulsory football or falconry?


i think the point you're making is that you have missed the use of that image in punk and anarchist circles for more than a quarter of a century.


----------



## bimble (Oct 21, 2015)

Are these by the same artist anyone know?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 21, 2015)

bimble said:


> But I think their moving in has the same effect on a place pretty much, I thought.. they might 'work in media" or crochet organic cupcakes instead of working in hedge funds.. might wear skinny jeans instead of suits but I thought that the main point was about their effect on a place they move into, which seems to me is similar?
> Maybe you hate them more for the ironic tattoos not the gentrification?


i don't think i've ever commented here on hipster tattoos save to say that it will be a poor lookout for tattoo artists in 20 years time as tattoo overload is unlikely to cascade down to the next generation.

hipsters are more likely to sell things to yuppies than to be yuppies.


----------



## Maurice Picarda (Oct 21, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> i think the point you're making is that you have missed the use of that image in punk and anarchist circles for more than a quarter of a century.



So presumably, for a quarter of a century, people have been complaining that the image of anarchist rebellion is half-inched from a book about a youngster who thinks he's too good for t'pit and prefers to imprison wildlife, and in all that time not one of you useless camo-trousered wastrels has bothered to photograph or even photocopy an alternative image?


----------



## bimble (Oct 21, 2015)

If I was a yuppie I'd start a chain of laser tattoo removal shops right now.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 21, 2015)

Maurice Picarda said:


> So presumably, for a quarter of a century, people have been complaining that the image of anarchist rebellion is half-inched from a book about a youngster who thinks he's too good for t'pit and prefers to imprison wildlife, and in all that time not one of you useless camo-trousered wastrels has bothered to photograph or even photocopy an alternative image?


 no.

next


----------



## Citizen66 (Oct 21, 2015)

Nice one said:


> tell that to your mates
> 
> 
> 
> ...



True. But it's inaccurate to pretend that Class War are out there randomly attacking hipsters despite what their invective may indicate.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 21, 2015)

see eg from c.2007


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 21, 2015)

Nice one said:


> tell that to your mates
> 
> 
> 
> ...


i'm glad we agree they're bad people doing bad things.


----------



## Maurice Picarda (Oct 21, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> see eg from c.2007



It's shocking. One disaffected lout stumbles out of his key stage 4 GCSE class after ripping the front cover from his set text, and the resulting copy is part of posters that still look as if they were put together by 1980s fanzine editors despite that being ridiculous in 2007 and exponentially so in 2015.


----------



## bimble (Oct 21, 2015)

Maurice Picarda said:


> It's shocking. One disaffected lout stumbles out of his key stage 4 GCSE class after ripping the front cover from his set text, and the resulting copy is part of posters that still look as if they were put together by 1980s fanzine editors despite that being ridiculous in 2007 and exponentially so in 2015.



You just made me find this.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 21, 2015)

Maurice Picarda said:


> It's shocking. One disaffected lout stumbles out of his key stage 4 GCSE class after ripping the front cover from his set text, and the resulting copy is part of posters that still look as if they were put together by 1980s fanzine editors despite that being ridiculous in 2007 and exponentially so in 2015.


i don't think they had key stage 4 25 years ago, i certainly don't recall it from when i did gcses.


----------



## Citizen66 (Oct 21, 2015)

Kes is 46 years old. I think it's aged pretty well.


----------



## Gromit (Oct 21, 2015)

My problem with all this is that the people moving into gentrification zones are the symptom not the cause.
Everyone is trying to get by and everyone aspires to a better life if not for themselves then for their kids. What kind of people begrudge others achieving it? They'd all prefer a race to the bottom is it? They are just as guilty of self interest as the ones they protest despite their violent self righteousness. Meanwhile the true villains sit back and laugh as we jealously fight amongst ourselves and just get richer.

The cause is the unrestrained capitalist housing market. The rich push out the middle incomes, the middle incomes push out the low incomes, the low incomes push out the really poor.
Not happy with this the government are trying their best to push out the benefit claimants.


----------



## Citizen66 (Oct 21, 2015)

Gromit said:


> My problem with all this is that the people moving into gentrification zones are the symptom not the cause.
> Everyone is trying to get by and everyone aspires to a better life if not for themselves then for their kids. What kind of people begrudge others achieving it? They'd all prefer a race to the bottom is it? They are just as guilty of self interest as the ones they protest despite their violent self righteousness. Meanwhile the true villains sit back and laugh as we jealously fight amongst ourselves and just get richer.



Sorry but this is a crock of crap. The people moving into Shoreditch aren't the working class done good. They're possibly not even middle class either. Perhaps a minority are ones who've landed city jobs. But families? It's where single people move to to have fun. Or couples with a decent income.


----------



## Lurdan (Oct 21, 2015)

bimble said:


> But I think their moving in has the same effect on a place.


Indeed - if they actually are the advance guard of a new wave of gentrification. The 'Camdenization' of the top half of Brick Lane began nearly a quarter of a century ago and is no different today to the way it's been for well over a decade. (The actual process of gentrification in the area began even longer ago at the start of the 70s). Brick Lane hasn't been a 'high street' primarily serving the local community for a very very long time.

Cereal Killers stand out as exceedingly annoying twats who deserve everything they get but they are not the symptom of an influx of 'hipsters' in the strict tribal sense. I can't see any change in the kind of people going to the 'Camdenized'  part of the Lane. It's much the same as it's been since the start of the century, although more than one wave of businesses have come and gone since that process began.

For me the most visible change in the sociological composition of the different groups using Brick Lane over the last decade has been the decline in the numbers of city workers using the 'curry mile' part of Brick Lane. Can't say I miss them myself - they were considerably more annoying than fucking hipsters.


----------



## bimble (Oct 21, 2015)

Lurdan said:


> The 'Camdenization' of the top half of Brick Lane began nearly a quarter of a century ago and is no different today to the way it's been for well over a decade.


I grew up in camden back when there was the DM boot shop & people selling pretty good weed for £5 on the canal.
The process by which its become a sort of Madame Tuassauds of stripy socks for tourists is more interesting and complex than just pointing the finger at "hipsters'.

For one thing the stables market in camden was bought by a private developer a few years ago.
Then there's the larger issue of central london housing shortage & prices.. I just think the whole 'I blame people with skinny jeans and overprices cereals" thing is kind of peurile and a failure of perspective.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 21, 2015)

Lurdan said:


> Brick Lane hasn't been a 'high street' primarily serving the local community for a very very long time.


Exactly, and imo that's not even such a terrible thing. It's a place people who don't live anywhere near there go to and has been for as long as I've been in London. It's a _market street _- that's what that kind of street is, and a fair few people make their living from the fact. It's not as if there isn't a high street for local people just around the corner - there certainly is.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 21, 2015)

bimble said:


> I grew up in camden back when there was the DM boot shop & people selling pretty good weed for £5 on the canal.
> The process by which its become a sort of Madame Tuassauds of stripy socks for tourists is more interesting and complex than just pointing the finger at "hipsters'..



Yeah, again, property speculation, rents, etc. My favourite bookshop, Compendium, closed up in the end because the owner got an offer he couldn't refuse. But even then, Camden was a place to go to when you didn't live there for a very long time. Again, it wasn't just there to serve the people of Camden, and nor necessarily should it have been.


----------



## bimble (Oct 21, 2015)

Agreed. Far as I know Camden used to be (like a long time ago admittedly) an important place in London for woodworking, workshops making everything from violins to staircases , furniture pianos etc.

I think the thing that killed it was that now almost every shop just sells the same stripy socks and novelty Tshirts to tourists?

Throwing things at the stripy sock vendors isn't going to do much to change this though, far as I can see.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 21, 2015)

bimble said:


> Agreed. Far as I know Camden used to be a a center for woodworking, workshops making everything from violins to staircases.
> I think the thing that killed it was that now almost every shop just sells the same stripy socks and novelty Tshirts to tourists?


Yes, but the thing that turned it into that was the rise in rents. There was a specialist reptile/fish pet shop just opposite Mornington Crescent until recently. A mate of mine worked there. The owner died, and my mate looked into the idea of taking it over. But the owners of the building _tripled_ the rent upon the shop owner's demise. It's now a mobile phone store.


----------



## bimble (Oct 21, 2015)

littlebabyjesus said:


> There was a specialist reptile/fish pet shop just opposite Mornington Crescent until recently. A mate of mine worked there. The owner died, and my mate looked into the idea of taking it over. But the owners of the building _tripled_ the rent upon the shop owner's demise. It's now a mobile phone store.



I didn't know that had gone. Know the place you're talking about. Good snakes. Wish I'd bought a monkey.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 21, 2015)

The interesting stuff gets priced out. Same has happened in Greenwich, loads of places.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 21, 2015)

bimble said:


> View attachment 78387
> 
> I didn't know that had gone. Know the place you're talking about. Good snakes. Wish I'd bought a monkey.


Not that. 

It was King's Aquatic. Owned by Simon King. Now dead, and shop gone but not because it wasn't a viable business. It was, but just not when you're having 100k per year stolen from you by the building owners. Rents in Camden are insane.


----------



## bimble (Oct 21, 2015)

Wait.. there's still monkeys for sale in Mornington Crescent?


----------



## Lurdan (Oct 21, 2015)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Yes, but the thing that turned it into that was the rise in rents.


Absolutely, although it's also true to say that businesses which cater to current fashions and trends have a natural shelf life, something which has been a driver for change in Camden and Brick Lane.


----------



## bimble (Oct 21, 2015)

littlebabyjesus said:


> the thing that turned it into that was the rise in rents.



Yes. 
So throwing things at those hipster cocopops vendors who have agreed to pay the high rents helps how exactly?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 21, 2015)

bimble said:


> Wait.. there's still monkeys for sale in Mornington Crescent?


I don't know. How long is it since you've been there?


----------



## bimble (Oct 21, 2015)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I don't know. How long is it since you've been there?


A while admittedly. I live in a place called Loughborough Junction now, don't know if you've heard of it.
Between Camberwell & Brixton. Very interesting place right now for the fried chicken versus cappuccino conversation, which i think was over years ago up there in the leafy north?
Loughborough Junction public space improvements - consultation begins


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 21, 2015)

bimble said:


> A while admittedly. I live in a place called Loughborough Junction now, don't know if you've heard of it. Between Camberwell & Brixton. Very interesting place right now for the fried chicken versus cappuccino conversation, which i think was over years ago up there in the leafy north?


Not been there in a few years.  But yes, proof that anywhere is open to this process.

Thing is, the old LJ, the one that I remember and was, let's face it, not great in some important ways, who exactly is it that mourns its passing, if it is passing? To me, that smacks of the same crap the likes of Brick Lane coffee are (rightly) accused of - revelling in the 'edginess' of down-at-heel London.


----------



## bimble (Oct 21, 2015)

littlebabyjesus said:


> the old LJ, the one that I remember and was, let's face it, not great in some important ways, who exactly is it that mourns its passing, if it is passing?


Me. I mourn it. But it's fair enough what you say maybe I'm just clinging to the embers of industrial London. It's a hard thing to watch though, what's happening here just now, the speed of it and the way its carried out.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 21, 2015)

bimble said:


> Me. I mourn it. But it's fair enough what you say maybe I'm just clinging to the embers of industrial London. It's a hard thing to watch though, what's happening here just now, the speed of it and the way its carried out.


Well I don't know exactly how it's changed. But that's the evil of the property racket. It makes urban regeneration without gentrification impossible. And that stinks because there are places that really need regeneration, and in a city like London, change and flux are the norm, not the exception - without it the city would be nothing like what it is and way poorer for it.


----------



## bimble (Oct 21, 2015)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Well I don't know exactly how it's changed. But that's the evil of the property racket. It makes urban regeneration without gentrification impossible. And that stinks because there are places that really need regeneration, and in a city like London, change and flux are the norm, not the exception - without it the city would be nothing like what it is and way poorer for it.



Yes.
The whole conversation (that I'm deep into in my local area) would be much enriched if the word "gentrification" and conversations about the price of cereals served by 2 bearded twits in shoreditch wasn't part if it.
But maybe that's just me being a pedantic bigger picture sociology type twit.
Maybe I don't belong here in the Join The Fuck Parade thread.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 21, 2015)

Threads aren't just for people who agree with their premise. 

I like the idea of the Fuck Parade, personally. I just think they have their targets wrong, and that their claims to represent certain people are dubious at best.


----------



## Citizen66 (Oct 21, 2015)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Threads aren't just for people who agree with their premise.
> 
> I like the idea of the Fuck Parade, personally. I just think they have their targets wrong, and that their claims to represent certain people are dubious at best.



Which targets are wrong?


----------



## bimble (Oct 21, 2015)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Threads aren't just for people who agree with their premise.
> 
> I like the idea of the Fuck Parade, personally. I just think they have their targets wrong, and that their claims to represent certain people are dubious at best.



Citizen66
Please can the Fuck Parade 4 wheel drive science fiction armoured truck thing come to Lambeth Town Hall next.
(It's on Brixton Road, opposite the tube station.)
Ask for Councillor Jennifer Braithwait's office.

Wear the pig masks & carry flaming torches.
Throw muesli or whatever.
Thanks.


if not, carry on with the independent retailers with stupid beards.
I mean that's cool too, and much less CCTV, only you will achieve exactly nothing.


----------



## smokedout (Oct 22, 2015)

bimble said:


> Citizen66
> 
> I mean that's cool too, and much less CCTV, only you will achieve exactly nothing.



it achieved the most wide ranging discussion about gentrification in the UK media I've seen in years if ever.


----------



## smokedout (Oct 22, 2015)

ska invita said:


> interesting set of articles here:
> Hipsterphobia is Theoretically Outdated [1/3] | Freedom News
> Hipsterphobia is Xenophobic [2/3] | Freedom News
> Hipsterphobia Sails Close to Homophobia and Gendered Norms [3/3] | Freedom News
> ...



I think they're dreadful, sloppy on facts, desperately searching for things that aren't there, verging on a smear and inpenetrable to anyone outside of the intersectionality bubble.



> the heteronormative family enjoyment of parks



that that line can be published in the worlds oldest anarchist newspaper makes me want to weep


----------



## Supine (Oct 22, 2015)

smokedout said:


> it achieved the most wide ranging discussion about gentrification in the UK media I've seen in years if ever.



And zero change


----------



## Nice one (Oct 22, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> True. But it's inaccurate to pretend that Class War are out there randomly attacking hipsters despite what their invective may indicate.



perhaps, but hipsters have been identified as a problem, a legitimate target, without ever really going into why that is so (it's not really needed is it, everyone hates hipsters). But hipsters are a genuine cultural phenomenon with a specific class content (just like yuppies), and if there was to be a closer examination it would probably unearth some uncomfortable truths.


----------



## bimble (Oct 22, 2015)

smokedout said:


> it achieved the most wide ranging discussion about gentrification in the UK media I've seen in years if ever.


I missed any discussion of the real issues after the fuck parade, just saw lots & lots of pictures of the cereal shop and interviews with the twits inside.

This was good, silent protest here recently. Not saying it changed anything but it did have something to say, something apart from 'we hate those bearded hipsters and their cococpops.


----------



## Citizen66 (Oct 22, 2015)

bimble said:


> Citizen66
> Please can the Fuck Parade 4 wheel drive science fiction armoured truck thing come to Lambeth Town Hall next.
> (It's on Brixton Road, opposite the tube station.)
> Ask for Councillor Jennifer Braithwait's office.
> ...



Why was this directed at me? You even edited in the tag too as it wasn't there when you originally posted it. I've never been on a Fuck Parade.


----------



## Citizen66 (Oct 22, 2015)

Nice one said:


> perhaps, but hipsters have been identified as a problem, a legitimate target, without ever really going into why that is so (it's not really needed is it, everyone hates hipsters). But hipsters are a genuine cultural phenomenon with a specific class content (just like yuppies), and if there was to be a closer examination it would probably unearth some uncomfortable truths.



Still not made up with them then?


----------



## bimble (Oct 22, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> Why was this directed at me? You even edited in the tag too as it wasn't there when you originally posted it. I've never been on a Fuck Parade.


I was only directing it at you because of your question 'which targets were wrong'. Never mind, shame though.


----------



## Citizen66 (Oct 22, 2015)

bimble said:


> I was only directing it at you because of your question 'which targets were wrong'. Never mind, shame though.



The reason why I asked that is because afaict there's only one target that the liberals are getting upset about. So why the plural? Are we weeping over Foxtons too?


----------



## bimble (Oct 22, 2015)

Foxtons makes sense to me as a target because the city's biggest & most aggressive estate agency have played a part in the whole process, pushing up house prices. Foxtons probably helped the owner of that shop to get the cereal cafe hipsters to pay whatever massive rent it is that means they have to overcharge for cocopops. anyway.


----------



## Citizen66 (Oct 22, 2015)

Ok so not Foxtons. I'm stumped at the other 'wrong' targets then. Surely not Poor Doors?


----------



## Citizen66 (Oct 22, 2015)

The Ripper museum?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 22, 2015)

bimble said:


> Foxtons makes sense to me as a target because the city's biggest & most aggressive estate agency have played a part in the whole process, pushing up house prices. Foxtons probably helped the owner of that shop to get the cereal cafe hipsters to pay whatever massive rent it is that means they have to overcharge for cocopops. anyway.


what i particularly appreciate about your posts is the originality of your thought


----------



## Nice one (Oct 22, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> Still not made up with them then?



you still not made up with laurie penny yet?


----------



## bimble (Oct 22, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> what i particularly appreciate about your posts is the originality of your thought


i think you're taking the piss. Which is fine of course.. i'm just sad that the big bad fuck parade truck won't come here and scare the people who (currently where I live) are making some major decisions that will result directly in the eviction of all the existing businesses, mostly industrial,  and their replacement with cupcake emporiums.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 22, 2015)

bimble said:


> I grew up in camden back when there was the DM boot shop & people selling pretty good weed for £5 on the canal.
> The process by which its become a sort of Madame Tuassauds of stripy socks for tourists is more interesting and complex than just pointing the finger at "hipsters'.
> 
> For one thing the stables market in camden was bought by a private developer a few years ago.
> Then there's the larger issue of central london housing shortage & prices.. I just think the whole 'I blame people with skinny jeans and overprices cereals" thing is kind of peurile and a failure of perspective.


fyi there is still the dm boot shop in camden, or was 3 weeks ago when i went past


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 22, 2015)

bimble said:


> i think you're taking the piss. Which is fine of course.. i'm just sad that the big bad fuck parade truck won't come here and scare the people who (currently where I live) are making some major decisions that will result directly in the eviction of all the existing businesses, mostly industrial,  and their replacement with cupcake emporiums.


the view you expressed was expressed by me in an article in 'touch of class' in 2007, shortly after cw picketed foxtons in the angel.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 22, 2015)

but once again it's not either/or but both


----------



## Citizen66 (Oct 22, 2015)

Nice one said:


> you still not made up with laurie penny yet?



I've never had an exchange with her. I don't follow her writings or anything.


----------



## bimble (Oct 22, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> Ok so not Foxtons. I'm stumped at the other 'wrong' targets then. Surely not Poor Doors?


I know it's boring of me but just have this idea that it would be great if the energy & anger was put into something that might actually create a change, instead of just a theatrical show. Like go after the decision-makers, or get some big machines and smash up those anti-homeless spikes that are appearing all over London..


----------



## Citizen66 (Oct 22, 2015)

bimble said:


> I know it's boring of me but just have this idea that it would be great if the energy & anger was put into something that might actually create a change, instead of just a theatrical show. Like go after the decision-makers, or get some big machines and smash up those anti-homeless spikes that are appearing all over London..
> View attachment 78402



So why aren't you?


----------



## bimble (Oct 22, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> So why aren't you?


I'm doing it here where I live just now, we have a 3,000 signature petition we're delivering to the relevant person next week for instance. Less fun than throwing cereals at hipsters though.


----------



## Citizen66 (Oct 22, 2015)

A strongly worded letter? Yeah. They'll sit up and listen for sure.


----------



## bimble (Oct 22, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> A strongly worded letter? Yeah. They work.


You carry on throwing cereals at hipsters, that works too, only I'm not sure what it is supposed to achieve exactly.


----------



## Citizen66 (Oct 22, 2015)

bimble said:


> You carry on throwing cereals at hipsters, that works too, only I'm not sure what it is supposed to achieve exactly.



Well for example you're discussing the cereal bar and gentrification but nobody is discussing your petition.


----------



## pocketscience (Oct 22, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> The reason why I asked that is because afaict there's only one target that the liberals are getting upset about. *So why the plural? *Are we weeping over Foxtons too?


Didn't Ian Bone say CW would continue to target "independent businesses"?


----------



## Nice one (Oct 22, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> I've never had an exchange with her. I don't follow her writings or anything.



you have robust criticism of her on here which obviously translates as *personal grudge*.


----------



## Citizen66 (Oct 22, 2015)

pocketscience said:


> Didn't Ian Bone say CW would continue to target "independent businesses"?



He did. But they're speaking in the past/present tense. We can hardly critique the future when it hasn't happened yet.


----------



## bimble (Oct 22, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> Well for example you're discussing the cereal bar and gentrification but nobody is discussing your petition.


ok. Agreed, the cereal bar has had loads of free publicity, probably the most famous cafe in London now. 
My thing here is local, it's being discussed by the 3,000 people who care about the outcome of the decision (and was covered by the standard last week, but nowhere near as exciting as dancing around Shoreditch in pig masks and flaming torches that's true.


----------



## Citizen66 (Oct 22, 2015)

Nice one said:


> you have robust criticism of her on here which obviously translates as *personal grudge*.



Where? Glad to be corrected but you could count the posts I've made about her on one hand. She's not someone I've ever considered a comrade.


----------



## Citizen66 (Oct 22, 2015)

bimble said:


> ok. Agreed, the cereal bar has had loads of free publicity, probably the most famous cafe in London now.
> My thing here is local, it's being discussed by the 3,000 people who care about the outcome of the decision (and was covered by the standard last week, but nowhere near as exciting as dancing around Shoreditch in pig masks and flaming torches that's true.



But petitions in isolation drag people away from direct action as it makes people feel they've done something whilst steering them down an ineffective route. You've got yourself to thank when the council shrugs.


----------



## Citizen66 (Oct 22, 2015)

Furthermore, Class War were at reclaim Brixton.


----------



## bimble (Oct 22, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> But petitions in isolation drag people away from direct action as it makes people feel they've done something whilst steering them down an ineffective route. You've got yourself to thank when the council shrugs.


There's been direct action too but that just got called vandalism, and they responded with more CCTV. I did ask if the fuck truck could please come and act directly on the town hall, but seems independent shops are more appealing as target.


----------



## pocketscience (Oct 22, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> He did.


So the use of plural was right and the answer is "Independent Businesses".


Citizen66 said:


> But they're speaking in the past/present tense. We can hardly critique the future when it hasn't happened yet.


and it was pointless of you to ask LBJ to name the targets if you know that they haven't been targeted yet.


----------



## bimble (Oct 22, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> Furthermore, Class War were at reclaim Brixton.


Yes, I know. Thanks for coming. It's reclaimed now.


----------



## Citizen66 (Oct 22, 2015)

bimble said:


> There's been direct action too but that just got called vandalism, and they responded with more CCTV. I did ask if the fuck truck could please come and act directly on the town hall, but seems independent shops are more appealing as target.



But they came to Reclaim Brixton. Have you supported any of their events? If you did you might have more joy in them supporting yours.


----------



## Citizen66 (Oct 22, 2015)

pocketscience said:


> So the use of plural was right and the answer is "Independent Businesses".
> 
> and it was pointless of you to ask LBJ to name the targets if you know that they haven't been targeted yet.



And perhaps never will be. So it was pointless mentioning it.

I'm sure LBJ is capable of articulating what he meant himself though.


----------



## Citizen66 (Oct 22, 2015)

bimble said:


> Yes, I know. Thanks for coming. It's reclaimed now.



Not a problem. Let us know how your petition goes.


----------



## bimble (Oct 22, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> And perhaps never will be. So it was pointless mentioning it.
> 
> I'm sure LBJ is capable of articulating what he meant himself though.


Is he the one who says "We will protest this economic warfare with a street party" ?


----------



## Citizen66 (Oct 22, 2015)

bimble said:


> Is he the one who says "We will protest this economic warfare with a street party" ?



Are we reading the same thread?


----------



## pocketscience (Oct 22, 2015)

I wonder who's next then.
Rough Trade Records? Well indie!
East London's finest self-facilitating media nodes, half of whom have silly beards, plimsolls and tight primark jeans. Cunts.


----------



## Citizen66 (Oct 22, 2015)

They're upsetting the right people I'll give them that.


----------



## bimble (Oct 22, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> Are we reading the same thread?


oh, sorry, you meant jesus. I thought you meant whoever wrote the fuck parade flyer manifesto thing.


----------



## Nice one (Oct 22, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> Where? Glad to be corrected but you could count the posts I've made about her on one hand. She's not someone I've ever considered a comrade.



 and there's only so many times i can say i love ian bone to death.


----------



## Citizen66 (Oct 22, 2015)

Nice one said:


> and there's only so many times i can say i love ian bone to death.



But he was a former mate wasn't he who you're now highly critical of. Saying things like 'uncomfortable truths' when you used to break bread with him. You'd never find me quaffing with Laurie Penny. Im too privileged.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 22, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> I'm sure LBJ is capable of articulating what he meant himself though.


i think you're being overly optimistic here.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 22, 2015)

bimble said:


> You carry on throwing cereals at hipsters, that works too, only I'm not sure what it is supposed to achieve exactly.


would you go more for half bricks next time then?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 22, 2015)

bimble said:


> I know it's boring of me but just have this idea that it would be great if the energy & anger was put into something that might actually create a change, instead of just a theatrical show. Like go after the decision-makers, or get some big machines and smash up those anti-homeless spikes that are appearing all over London..
> View attachment 78402


those things have been appearing for 30 years or more, so you've had many years to make some sort of stand about it.


----------



## bimble (Oct 22, 2015)

yes, i think i'll bugger off now back to my usual thread..


----------



## Nice one (Oct 22, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> But he was a former mate wasn't he who you're now highly critical of. Saying things like 'uncomfortable truths' when you used to break bread with him. You'd never find me quaffing with Laurie Penny. Im too privileged.



hang on, from a political perspective i have always been critical of class war's m.o, nothing's changed there. I'd happily sit and drink with bone and with jane, (the only two people i know who are in this incarnation of class war), seriously i don't know where you're getting your info from.

The uncomfortable truth is - the likes of upper middle class gentrifiers (i'm thinking here of the likes of pickmans model as the example) being part of the class war dynamic. It's a political truth. Calling them hipsters (or yuppies or toffs) allows all the other posh twats a free pass into class war who can quite happily reference themselves out of equation.


----------



## bimble (Oct 22, 2015)

Nice one said:


> hang on, from a political perspective i have always been critical of class war's m.o, nothing's changed there. I'd happily sit and drink with bone and with jane, (the only two people i know who are in this incarnation of class war), seriously i don't know where you're getting your info from.
> 
> The uncomfortable truth is - the likes of upper middle class gentrifiers (i'm thinking here of the likes of pickmans model as the example) being part of the class war dynamic. It's a political truth. Calling them hipsters (or yuppies or toffs) allows all the other posh twats a free pass into class war who can quite happily reference themselves out of equation.




If i saw this women on the street i might even get the idea she's a hipster, with the expensively styled retro hair and everything. 
i'll get my coat..


----------



## Citizen66 (Oct 22, 2015)

Nice one said:


> hang on, from a political perspective i have always been critical of class war's m.o, nothing's changed there. I'd happily sit and drink with bone and with jane, (the only two people i know who are in this incarnation of class war), seriously i don't know where you're getting your info from.
> 
> The uncomfortable truth is - the likes of upper middle class gentrifiers (i'm thinking here of the likes of pickmans model as the example) being part of the class war dynamic. It's a political truth. Calling them hipsters (or yuppies or toffs) allows all the other posh twats a free pass into class war who can quite happily reference themselves out of equation.



Pickman's model owns the means of production?


----------



## Citizen66 (Oct 22, 2015)

He doesn't even fit into the definition you previously gave where you spoke of people who control the working class in the interests of capital. Unless he's an archive manager I suppose lol.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 22, 2015)

Nice one said:


> hang on, from a political perspective i have always been critical of class war's m.o, nothing's changed there. I'd happily sit and drink with bone and with jane, (the only two people i know who are in this incarnation of class war), seriously i don't know where you're getting your info from.
> 
> The uncomfortable truth is - the likes of upper middle class gentrifiers (i'm thinking here of the likes of pickmans model as the example) being part of the class war dynamic. It's a political truth. Calling them hipsters (or yuppies or toffs) allows all the other posh twats a free pass into class war who can quite happily reference themselves out of equation.


hmm. not sure how to take this claim being as at no point over the past 12+ years have you ever said anything along these lines to me - and it's not as though you've lacked opportunity. it seems to me that your claim is without any basis in fact, so i would be grateful if you could tell me how i have acted as a gentrifier.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 22, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> He doesn't even fit into the definition you previously gave where you spoke of people who control the working class in the interests of capital. Unless he's an archive manager I suppose lol.


no, the furthest i progressed was archive assistant - not having the archive qualification.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 22, 2015)

.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 24, 2015)

bimble said:


> I know it's boring of me but just have this idea that it would be great if the energy & anger was put into something that might actually create a change, instead of just a theatrical show. Like go after the decision-makers, or get some big machines and smash up those anti-homeless spikes that are appearing all over London..
> View attachment 78402



Think you'll find that activists have been pouring quick-set self-levelling concrete on such spikes for at least the last year or so.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 24, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> would you go more for half bricks next time then?



Billiard balls filled with ammonia.


----------



## cantsin (Nov 13, 2015)

posh coffee twats now on the loose in Brick Lane : 

Coffee shop bans customers in Ugg boots, labelling them 'slag wellies'


----------



## 8den (Nov 13, 2015)

They should have had their window bricked in for the "no poor people" sign


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 13, 2015)

8den said:


> They should have had their window bricked in for the "no poor people" sign


not to mention their elbows and knees smashed to pulp


----------



## cantsin (Nov 13, 2015)

agreed on both points - proper giving it on twitter as well ...annoying.


----------



## The Flying Pig (Nov 13, 2015)

Hahaha! cleverdick "slag wellies" ! Well that's what our girls are. It's only posh dickos from the upper echolons who are offended by this stuff. 
The rest of us just get on with it and as we don't frequent trendy Shoreditch and Brick Lane we really don't give a toss.


----------



## cantsin (Nov 14, 2015)

Fuck, this lot could get very trying : 





*Fuckoffee (@fuck0ffee)*
11/11/2015 11:42 am
feminists offended by....
FGM ❌ 
Honour Killing ❌ 
Words on a blackboard ✔

Download the Twitter app


Sent from my iPad


----------



## bimble (Nov 21, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> Not a problem. Let us know how your petition goes.


So yeah so I'm happy to inform you that the petition (and other methods) actually worked!
Lambeth Council announced yesterday that they've reversed their decision, having spent months implementing it.
I'm sure you'll be really happy for us 
Party on never give up the good fight with your throwing of cocopops , it's obviously achieved loads of meaningful change.
Cereal Killer Cafe | Menus
x


----------



## DrRingDing (Nov 21, 2015)

Words fail.


----------



## bimble (Nov 21, 2015)

DrRingDing said:


> Words fail.


Try really hard ding and you might be able to communicate your thoughts or feelings through words.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 21, 2015)

bimble said:


> So yeah so I'm happy to inform you that the petition (and other methods) actually worked!
> Lambeth Council announced yesterday that they've reversed their decision, having spent months implementing it.
> I'm sure you'll be really happy for us
> Party on never give up the good fight with your throwing of cocopops , it's obviously achieved loads of meaningful change.
> ...


yeh. what other methods?


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 21, 2015)

bimble said:


> Try really hard ding and you might be able to communicate your thoughts or feelings through words.



Well done. It's not a competition though.


----------



## bimble (Nov 22, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh. what other methods?


Long story, and probably not very interesting unless you live in the immediate area but 
Loughborough Junction public space improvements - consultation begins


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 22, 2015)

bimble said:


> Long story, and probably not very interesting unless you live in the immediate area but
> Loughborough Junction public space improvements - consultation begins


i thought you might mention 3 or 4 of the other things done, not refer me to some other thread.


----------



## bimble (Nov 22, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> i thought you might mention 3 or 4 of the other things done, not refer me to some other thread.


Public meetings, several thousand emails to councillors, forensic analysis showing how crap the consultation process was and how they skewed the figures, coverage by a couple of journalists which made the council look bad, that sort of thing.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 22, 2015)

bimble said:


> Public meetings, several thousand emails to councillors, forensic analysis showing how crap the consultation process was and how they skewed the figures, coverage by a couple of journalists which made the council look bad, that sort of thing.


but why then do you say it was the petition wot dun it?


----------



## bimble (Nov 22, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> but why then do you say it was the petition wot dun it?


It was a mixture of all those things, not just petition.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 22, 2015)

bimble said:


> It was a mixture of all those things, not just petition.


yes. but why did you highlight the petition, when you cannot say how effective it was?


----------



## bimble (Nov 22, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> yes. but why did you highlight the petition, when you cannot say how effective it was?


 Because.. on this thread I was ridiculed for the idea that a petition could make the blindest bit of difference to anything-  and coz it does seem to have been key (the council's statement references the weight of opposition demonstrated by the petition).


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 22, 2015)

bimble said:


> Because.. on this thread I was ridiculed for the idea that a petition could make the blindest bit of difference to anything-  and coz it does seem to have been key (the council's statement references the weight of opposition demonstrated by the petition).


the petition has made no difference whatsoever as gentrification continues apace.


----------



## bimble (Nov 22, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> the petition has made no difference whatsoever as gentrification continues apace.


never mind eh. We shouldn't have bothered, should've just sat here whinging about hipsters and the price of cereals.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 22, 2015)

bimble said:


> never mind eh. We shouldn't have bothered, should've just sat here whinging about the price of cereals.


you didn't even do that.


----------



## sullyboy80 (Nov 25, 2015)

brighton gentrification - anywhere half decent is being taken over by fucking hipsters!


----------



## AnnoyingStudent (Apr 5, 2019)

If anyone could check my questions about gentrification would be greatly appreciated?


----------



## Riklet (Apr 15, 2019)

AnnoyingStudent said:


> If anyone could check my questions about gentrification would be greatly appreciated?



You really are fucking annoying.


----------



## editor (Apr 15, 2019)

AnnoyingStudent said:


> If anyone could check my questions about gentrification would be greatly appreciated?


You are aware that the rules of this board specifically ban students using us as a free resource, so if you think you can now start spamming other threads with endless requests, you're very much mistaken.  Either contribute something or you'll be hoofed off.


----------



## AnnoyingStudent (Apr 24, 2019)

Riklet said:


> You really are fucking annoying.


Who are you???


----------



## friedaweed (Apr 26, 2019)

AnnoyingStudent said:


> Who are you???


Tune


----------

